# Eldrad knew the missing Primarchs will return?



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

I'm rereading the HH books from the start, and have got to _Fulgrim_, page 220/221. Eldrad is lamenting the fact that the immediate future of humanity is clouded to him, but he has seen the the end of humanity, including "...the great eye opening to release the the mighty heroes of legend trapped there to return to their warriors' sides for the final battle."

I can't believe I missed this the first time around. What else do you guys think it might be?

Also, in the same passage he seems to indicate that humanity's end will come on Armageddon. "Already, Eldrad had seen the death of their race, the blood soaked fields of the world named for the end of days." Armageddon is the end of days in our biblical myths. 

Am I reading too much into it? This is a vision seen by the Eldars' greatest seer, surely it must hold some weight. Or is it just a passage thown in to try and make his visions more profound? I am aware that Eldar visions are of what could _possibly _come to pass, but this seems too specific for me.


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## Shattertheirsky (May 26, 2012)

I think I can explain it.

Right the 'the blood soaked fields of the world named for the end of days' is a common theme in Eldar lore. There is a sort of battle to end all battles, convened by the phoenix lord Fuegan, and apparently involved Eldar and Imperium, it is sort of a final stand for the Eldar, their belief is that after this battle, the god Ynnead, god of the dead will be awakeaned, and he will destroy chaos forever, Armageddon seems a pretty popular invasion point, so it could occur here. Here comes my theory. Chaos feeds off humanity as its prime food source. Eldrad speaks of the end of humanity. It seems logical that if Ynnead destroyed humanity, Chaos would be severely weakened, able to be destroyed much, much easier.

That last part is just a theory, but the rest is canon. Furthermore the 'great eye opening to release....' is CLEARLY a reference to Russ, Corax, Vulkan and Khan coming back.

Hope I could help


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## PlagueMarineXenon (Jun 30, 2012)

Shattertheirsky said:


> That last part is just a theory, but the rest is canon. Furthermore the 'great eye opening to release....' is CLEARLY a reference to Russ, Corax, Vulkan and Khan coming back.


I have to agree that this is the case as there's no mention of what actually happened to the two lost legions. Without knowing that they were sent to the eye to begin with, we really can't say that they'd be returning from it. It makes a lot more sense that those we know went in there would be returning. Especially as more than one of them told their legion that they would.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

PlagueMarineXenon said:


> I have to agree that this is the case as there's no mention of what actually happened to the two lost legions. Without knowing that they were sent to the eye to begin with, we really can't say that they'd be returning from it. It makes a lot more sense that those we know went in there would be returning. Especially as more than one of them told their legion that they would.


Only mention of them is that they have been called the Lost and the Damned I believe. So who knows? Maybe one of the missing primarchs will return with a legion of Space Marines alongside the other missing primarchs?


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Shattertheirsky said:


> I think I can explain it.
> 
> Right the 'the blood soaked fields of the world named for the end of days' is a common theme in Eldar lore. There is a sort of battle to end all battles, convened by the phoenix lord Fuegan,


The Rhana Dhandra (however you spell it)

Always found it slightly depressing....


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> I'm rereading the HH books from the start, and have got to _Fulgrim_, page 220/221. Eldrad is lamenting the fact that the immediate future of humanity is clouded to him, but he has seen the the end of humanity, including "...the great eye opening to release the the mighty heroes of legend trapped there to return to their warriors' sides for the final battle."


The concept of a final battle is firmly lodged into Eldar mythology (Rhana Dandra) and it is no wonder that they believe humanity will also be involved. However, the passage does seem to be a clear reference to the Primarchs (like Russ and Corax) who journeyed into the Eye post-Heresy rather than the Lost Primarchs, which also aligns with the Wolf King's "Wolf-Time" prophecy.


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## Good Minton (Sep 1, 2010)

In a round about way it may mean that it would not ever be written or indeed come to pass as it would mean the end of the Imperium?

Unless the Imperium and humanity win the final battle of course..........Living, breathing, loyalist Primarchs in 40k eh?


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Good Minton said:


> In a round about way it may mean that it would not ever be written or indeed come to pass as it would mean the end of the Imperium?
> 
> Unless the Imperium and humanity win the final battle of course..........Living, breathing, loyalist Primarchs in 40k eh?


Well. There is the Lion who's still alive. He's held in stasis inside a secret chamber on The Rock. I would say he counts as a living breathing primarch... He's just not physically leading his marines because he's been out cold for the past 10,000 years.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

interesting both lion and luther are in the rock.

Goolyman is in stasis after a close shave with a daemon weapon.

Dorn, Sanguinius and Manus are dead.

Vulkan is lost, Corax has fled, Khan is captured, and Russ is munching daemon gribblies (we think).

So 4 are 'capable' of returning (4 horsemen, heralds of the apocalypse), 1 has lost his mind, one is a zombie king over a shattered empire and 3 are dead (one a dead angel, one his shield)


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

> Vulkan is lost, Corax has fled, Khan is captured, and Russ is munching daemon gribblies (we think).


Is that statement just your opinion or do you have fluff to back that up about the Khan? Because if not I think you should quantify it by saying I think he's captured. To my knowledge no one knows what's happened to him. By the way Vulkan is not "lost." He told his men the conditions that would have to occur for him to come back. Also your forgetting that Johnson is very much still alive so that's 5. 



> So 4 are 'capable' of returning (4 horsemen, heralds of the apocalypse), 1 has lost his mind, one is a zombie king over a shattered empire and 3 are dead (one a dead angel, one his shield)


[/QUOTE]

Whose a zombie king now? 5 primarchs are capable of returning on the loyalist side.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Guilman is slowly healing in his Stasis pod, according to some, and may be able to rise and lead soon. In galactic terms.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Vaz said:


> interesting both lion and luther are in the rock.
> 
> Goolyman is in stasis after a close shave with a daemon weapon.
> 
> ...


For all we know, Vulkan, Corax, Khan, and Russ are all dead somewhere, though they may actually be alive as well. Guilliman won't be getting up and walking around anytime soon. We've all seen the arguments here. He is literally seconds away from death, practically dead already.

The Lion is the only primarch that could physically lead any troops, if he wasn't in stasis. 

A maximum of 5 primarchs are capable of returning. A minimum of 1 is capable of returning. I guess we'll see who all turns up at the Rhana Dandra with the Eldar.

I'm not putting much hope into Vulkan, Corax, Khan, or Russ being alive. Things look bleak for the Imperium, but then again, when haven't things looked bleak for them in the past 10,000 years?


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## Shattertheirsky (May 26, 2012)

DeathJester921 said:


> For all we know, Vulkan, Corax, Khan, and Russ are all dead somewhere


Vulkan, Russ and Corax pissed off into the eye of terror, but tbh, they're primarchs, they can basically do anything. The Khan is holding a grand pissup in the webway and generally fucking around the DE. I don't think they're dead, that would be far to much of a let down. I mean, if Driago can come and go through the warp, Khan can break out of the webway, and Russ, Vulkan and Corax can come back too


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Shattertheirsky said:


> Vulkan, Russ and Corax pissed off into the eye of terror, but tbh, they're primarchs, they can basically do anything. The Khan is holding a grand pissup in the webway and generally fucking around the DE. I don't think they're dead, that would be far to much of a let down. I mean, if Driago can come and go through the warp, Khan can break out of the webway, and Russ, Vulkan and Corax can come back too


Except for the fact that they've been gone for millenia. MILLENIA. Russ and Corax ventured into the EoT alone. Primarch or no, they're likely dead. Likely overwhelmed by daemons. Not too sure about Vulkan and his disappearance, but if he went alone into the EoT like you suggested, then, again, probably overwhelmed by daemons. Perhaps Khan is still alive in the webway. Theres no way to be sure if they are still alive or not. Even primarchs can die as we've seen. They can make mistakes. They can be overwhelmed. 

Khan, out of the four mentioned, is the only one besides Vulkan, since I don't know jack squat about his disappearnace and was only going off the fact that he's been gone for millenia, who may still be alive, and may be able to come back and lead his sons into battle.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Time moves strangely in the warp. To them, they may only have been gone a few days/weeks/months/years instead of millennia.


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## Shattertheirsky (May 26, 2012)

DeathJester921 said:


> Khan, out of the four mentioned, is the only one besides Vulkan, since I don't know jack squat about his disappearnace and was only going off the fact that he's been gone for millenia, who may still be alive, and may be able to come back and lead his sons into battle.


Khan went in with like, the entire 1st company, the best warriors of the White Scars, so I'm pretty sure he's ok XD


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Technically, GW left the story open enough where any primarch could return.

Seriously, from how much the fluff has warped in the last few years I believe GW could bring back any primarch they want (long as the market is in dire enough need for a revenue boost to keep them in the black).

sanguinus = they could easily write his return as being the Sanguinor, and that he is the psychic/warp manifestation of sanguinus.

Russ = Comes back from the warp

Khan = comes back from the warp or commoragh

Corax = comes back from the warp

Dorn = Comes back from wherever he went, as his death is left open to interpretation, some say they recovered his whole body others say only his fist and weapons

Night haunter = corona nox is housing his soul as some sort of eldar soul stone

Ferrus = could write that his metalic hands were actually a c'tan shard and that even though he was beheaded it kept his consciousness alive in them. Or that he is on mars etc

etc etc.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Lux said:


> Seriously, from how much the fluff has warped in the last few years I believe GW could bring back any primarch they want (long as the market is in dire enough need for a revenue boost to keep them in the black).


:goodpost:
Very true. 

But I don't really see this happening anytime soon. GW is pretty much just trying to attract younger people temporarly. 

But if they ever planned to bring a Primarch back, I believe it would part of a Gamesworkshop Campaign, and then they'd kill him off or throw him off into the darkness. It probably would be from desperation of course. It may or may not turn out well. But at the end of it the Primarch and whatever arch-enemy (equally powerful) would be taken out of the game so that things return to normal.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

See and this was going so well. What part of frozen in the moment of death makes you think Gulliman is seconds away from death. He's dead. They put him in stasis the moment he died. He is a corpse just like his father, just better preserved. The rest are debatable, but until the world dead appears next to their names, I wouldn't count out the primarchs.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> See and this was going so well. What part of frozen in the moment of death makes you think Gulliman is seconds away from death. He's dead. They put him in stasis the moment he died. He is a corpse just like his father, just better preserved. The rest are debatable, but until the world dead appears next to their names, I wouldn't count out the primarchs.


Gulliman is as alive as GW wants him to be, it really is as simple as that.

What the fans believe really means nothing in the grand scheme of things, entire fluff histories have been re-written with a single a codex.

You think Gulliman being dead or alive is set in stone? He is as alive or dead as GW needs him to be.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

For once I'll agree with Lux on this. The only real evidence that depicts Guilliman is dead is _Chapter's Due_ by Graham McNeill, but that's like arguing the Void Dragon isn't a shard.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

UNTIL GW writes it, then we go with the last word. The C'tan weren't shards until the fluff changed. The Astartes would never ally with the Necrons until it happened. So until it happens then he's dead. If or when the fluff is rewritten then we can have a discussion about Roboute. Until that time, the fluff states that he's frozen in the moment of his death. That's the fluff. This isn't a discussion on the possibility of bringing him back or not. They can and will do whatever they like at GW. It hasn't happened yet.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> UNTIL GW writes it, then we go with the last word. The C'tan weren't shards until the fluff changed. The Astartes would never ally with the Necrons until it happened. So until it happens then he's dead. If or when the fluff is rewritten then we can have a discussion about Roboute. Until that time, the fluff states that he's frozen in the moment of his death. That's the fluff. This isn't a discussion on the possibility of bringing him back or not. They can and will do whatever they like at GW. It hasn't happened yet.


Well I guess I'll just be upfront with it, he's alive.

Really, there is nothing you can present that can change that fluff wise.

One source states they froze him upon death, while it also states those very same apothecaries understand absolutely nothing about his biology. So how did they "know" he was dead upon being frozen? They didn't, they assumed he was with what little knowledge they had of his entirely alien biology.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Then I can say the Dark Angels are traitors because Astellan said so. Fluff within the Dark Angels is crashing back and forth, they've had more stories than any other legion and we still don't know whats going on with them.

How do we know Guilliman is dead? Because Uriel thinks he's dead? 

I said it was evidence. Not a confirmation. So until GW or someone in BL _confirms_ he is dead, then he's not dead.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Then I can say the Dark Angels are traitors because Astellan said so. Fluff within the Dark Angels is crashing back and forth, they've had more stories than any other legion and we still don't know whats going on with them.
> 
> How do we know Guilliman is dead? Because Uriel thinks he's dead?
> 
> I said it was evidence. Not a confirmation. So until GW or someone in BL _confirms_ he is dead, then he's not dead.


Nicely put, taking a singular characters finite view on a particular event, is not a concrete blanket statement by an author. Considering said character was not even alive during the event, nor did he witness the freezing of said primarch. He is going by second hand information passed down for who knows how long, that was inaccurate to begin with as they didn't understand the biology of a primarch at all.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Creon said:


> Time moves strangely in the warp. To them, they may only have been gone a few days/weeks/months/years instead of millennia.


Agreed. Just look at the 13th company. Back kicking ass and taking names on Cadia as we speak. Also, as said, Khan had his first company with him, and Russ took his closest warriors with him as well.

Personally I'm a believer that Dorn and Guilliman are both truly dead, and Jonson is a headcase, so we are left with Russ(will shake shit up when he comes back), Corax(woe is me, we are all doomed), the Khan(will back Russ to the hilt), and Vulcan(the most stable of them all). I think we'll have to wait till the next edition for it to move on the fluff, but we'll see something definite then I hope.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Lack of respiration, brain activity, and vital signs. At least the Emperor mind is still at work. Think what you want. Fulgrim defeated and murdered Gulliman. That's in the fluff. You can believe whatever you want, but the fact is is that there's no prophecy among his sons for him coming back. No end times rebirth or revival to lead once again.I believe the Emperor could possibly heal him along with Sanguinius. The skeletal remains of Dorn is a bit of a stretch. In the end if you want to believe Rob's alive feel free.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Creon said:


> Time moves strangely in the warp. To them, they may only have been gone a few days/weeks/months/years instead of millennia.


But then again it could have been twice as long inside the warp than it has been outside. I'm just going based off of what *I* think which is based off of what I know of the fluff. They may be dead. They may still be alive. We won't know until GW decides to actually do something regarding this.

To me those who went into the EoT, are likely dead. Just because the 13th Company of the Space Wolves is still around, doesn't mean Russ himself is. Corax went in alone. He's likely dead, though I don't like saying it since I love the Raven Guard. Don't know about Vulkan, but until I have proof that says otherwise, he's likely dead. Russ, likely dead. Khan, 50-50 chance of him being Dead or Alive. He's been trapped in the webway for several millenia. Even with his best warriors it doesn't mean they aren't all dead right now from persistant Eldar/Dark Eldar raids. Again, who knows?

We'll just have to wait and see


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> Lack of respiration, brain activity, and vital signs. At least the Emperor mind is still at work. Think what you want. Fulgrim defeated and murdered Gulliman. That's in the fluff. You can believe whatever you want, but the fact is is that there's no prophecy among his sons for him coming back. No end times rebirth or revival to lead once again.I believe the Emperor could possibly heal him along with Sanguinius. The skeletal remains of Dorn is a bit of a stretch. In the end if you want to believe Rob's alive feel free.



You like to make up fluff quite a bit don't you? No where in the book describing Gulliman's entry to stasis does it mention lack of brain activity, vital signs.

What it does mention is they didn't understand a single reading or sight of what they saw of the primarch's physiology. They didn't know how to treat him, or measure if some thing was working, it was only after exhausting all strategies that they entered him into stasis.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Lux said:


> You like to make up fluff quite a bit don't you?


:shok::shok::shok::laugh: Pot, kettle, black?


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> :shok::shok::shok::laugh: Pot, kettle, black?


I go purely by in text quotes only otherwise the fluff is to open to interpretation, thus I go by page and paragraph quotes.

It helps to keep things in line when discussing the material with other board members.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

It says the put him in stasis frozen in the moment of his death. Not mortally wounded,not sleeping within a rock, not to meditate for a thousand years. They used the word death. You can use any ridiculous interpretation to believe whatever nonsense you want. The people of the Imperium believe that the Emperor is a god. The Mechanicum believe that the Emperor is an aspect of the Omnissah. The followers of Chaos believe that their masters plan is to dominate humanity when in truth their is no plan since that would indicate order which is contradictory to Chaos. 
Many factions in 40k cling to hope. Ovcourse the resident of the Ultramar system want to believe that their leige lord is healing and will come back. If you were in their situation you would want some hope too. They've been through a lot. This is a story of horror, not hope. This is how humanity ends. There is no prophecy that talks of Gulliman's return. Nowhere, I checked. Unlike the Khan, Russ, and Vulkan Roboute's sons do not look for his return. They know he's dead but leave the people their hope,why crush it? Believe what you want, but Gulliman is dead.


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## merp141 (Aug 1, 2012)

This has likely been answered to your satisfaction already, but I feel it could be beneficial for me to add my two cents?

Russ, Corax and Vulkan all left under their own power. We can likely assume (since any primarch we have "seen" die has died at the hand of another primarch) are alive and kicking (ass) somewhere

Guilliman and the Lion are both in stasis of some sort (I believe) and will be able to fight when the time comes (or not depending on who you ask)

Khan entered the webway and may be captured. Since the Dark Eldar love their pleasure its entirely possible that he has been kept alive to amuse them

Here is where I get a little controvertial personally. In most of the sources I have read the only thing they found of Rogal Dorn was his skeletal hand. I pose the unlikely and probably unpopular theory that Mr Dorn, though maimed *survived* the _sword of sarcrilige_ and is presently lost on some god-forsaken backwater or some such. I know that since other sources say that the Imperial Fists have posession of his whole skeleton and since it would be out of character for him to survive such an act of supreme sacrifice

Aditionally there are rumours that the intact corpse of Ferrus Manus was recovered from Istvaan V and is now in stasis on Mars. Since this is science fiction we cannot rule out the fact that the mechanicum could possibly resurect him. The fact that his body was imbued with necrodermis (in fact we are unaware of what far-reaching effects it may have had on his internal biology other than the change in his eye colour) and necrodermis' known regeneration capabilities... Its a long shot but this is all possibilities and conjecture

Sanguinious is dead. End of.

Interestingly I would place Alpharious (or Omegon? Whichever one survived the Heresy) as a Loyalist Primarch. It is possible that Alpharious' legion remains, at its heart, Loyal to the emperor and does the emperor's work in some obscure, backwards way. Obviously not all of the marines could remain loyal, but the organisation and motives of the Alpha Legion (other than trying to get a rise out of Robute Guilliman) in the 41st milenium have been deliberately kept vague and this very open to interpretation.

Regarding the lost primarches I believe that "Prospero Burns" makes reference to the fact that the Space Wolves culling of the Thousand Sons legion was not the first time astartes had fought legion to legion.. In addition "The first Heretic" comments that around the same time period that the missing legions dissapeared the ranks of the Ultramarines swelled, though this may be coincidence. Finally there is an exchange from the book "Mechanicum"

Malcador; Horus has three of his brother legions with him, you have your fists and thirteen others 
Dorn; Would that it were fifteen
Malcador; Do not even think it, my friend. They are lost to us forever
Dorn; I know

Sadly we will likely never learn of the true fates of the lost legions. At this stage the mystery has perpetuated itself and captured many of our imaginations and so could not possibly be done justice to by any of the writers at BL.

All in all it is entirely possible that these Primarches could revive and join the final battle for the fate of the galaxy. However it is more likely that Khan has been sacrificed to Slannesh, Robute would die if taken out of stasis, Jonson is a cripple, Dorn is paste, Ferrus' ghost took up horse riding, Alpharious (or Omegon) is really *evil* and that the lost primarches are dead. Its also possible that Corax, Vulkan and Russ found something out there thats even bigger, nastier and harder than a Primarch and got beaten, brutalised, defiled in all sorts of ways and eaten (hopefully not in that order)

I hope I didn't join the party too late to be of any help!


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> It says the put him in stasis frozen in the moment of his death. Not mortally wounded,not sleeping within a rock, not to meditate for a thousand years. They used the word death. You can use any ridiculous interpretation to believe whatever nonsense you want. The people of the Imperium believe that the Emperor is a god. The Mechanicum believe that the Emperor is an aspect of the Omnissah. The followers of Chaos believe that their masters plan is to dominate humanity when in truth their is no plan since that would indicate order which is contradictory to Chaos.
> Many factions in 40k cling to hope. Ovcourse the resident of the Ultramar system want to believe that their leige lord is healing and will come back. If you were in their situation you would want some hope too. They've been through a lot. This is a story of horror, not hope. This is how humanity ends. There is no prophecy that talks of Gulliman's return. Nowhere, I checked. Unlike the Khan, Russ, and Vulkan Roboute's sons do not look for his return. They know he's dead but leave the people their hope,why crush it? Believe what you want, but Gulliman is dead.


You seem to be missing the point that the apothecaries knew next to nothing of their primarchs physiology. That line is the thoughts of the apothecaries. For all we know, he could be far enough from death to still have a fighting chance at living through any miracle treatment created by his sons, if they ever were able to create a miracle treatment.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Lux said:


> You like to make up fluff quite a bit don't you? No where in the book describing Gulliman's entry to stasis does it mention lack of brain activity, vital signs.
> 
> What it does mention is they didn't understand a single reading or sight of what they saw of the primarch's physiology. They didn't know how to treat him, or measure if some thing was working, it was only after exhausting all strategies that they entered him into stasis.





Khorne's Fist said:


> :shok::shok::shok::laugh: Pot, kettle, black?


You beat me to it, but holy shit! What an outrageously hypocritical comment lol.

I've posted enough times in enough threads for people to know my stance on Guilliman, but just again for the record, it states death, dead and that he is now a corpse. It's not written from the perspective of apothercaries either but from the third person view of the fluff, as a statement, not an opinion. Yeah GW could undoubtedly pull some deus ex machina stunt or have the Emperor somehow intervene, but for now, in the current and most up to date fluff he is described as dead.


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## Shattertheirsky (May 26, 2012)

I don't think the Khan is dead, but he wouldn't have his bike if he came out of the webway. I mean, I highly doubt there are many gas stations in the webway. Lol, Webway Fuel, Khan sitting there filling up, having a leisurely chat to the Dark Eldar filling up his Raider next to him, before going in to pay the pasty, spotty harlequin attendant and buying an out of date sandwich XD lolololol


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## LongfangFenrika93 (Jan 22, 2012)

> Interestingly I would place Alpharious (or Omegon? Whichever one survived the Heresy) as a Loyalist Primarch. It is possible that Alpharious' legion remains, at its heart, Loyal to the emperor and does the emperor's work in some obscure, backwards way. Obviously not all of the marines could remain loyal, but the organisation and motives of the Alpha Legion (other than trying to get a rise out of Robute Guilliman) in the 41st milenium have been deliberately kept vague and this very open to interpretation.


I know this is an opinion thing, but we can't really place the Alpha Legion in either category just yet, and might not ever be able to. Alpharius and Omegon together were committed to the Cabal's goal at the time of the book, _Legion_. However, after that it gets incredibly complex. Omegon tells the Cabal to fuck off in DL, then he is sneaking about in that short story in 'Primarchs', behind his twin's back. He definately comes off as the more... _evil_ of the two of them. So until we know who was killed by Guilliman, or their background is covered more in later novels, its open to the wind.



> To me those who went into the EoT, are likely dead. Just because the 13th Company of the Space Wolves is still around, doesn't mean Russ himself is. Corax went in alone. He's likely dead, though I don't like saying it since I love the Raven Guard. Don't know about Vulkan, but until I have proof that says otherwise, he's likely dead. Russ, likely dead. Khan, 50-50 chance of him being Dead or Alive. He's been trapped in the webway for several millenia. Even with his best warriors it doesn't mean they aren't all dead right now from persistant Eldar/Dark Eldar raids. Again, who knows?


I agree. Corax is probably dead. I can't imagine him surviving long in the EoT with his emotionally damaged mind and his regrets over his actions withhis Legion and the like. Vulkan is a tricky one. Could be in the same boat as Corax, emotionally scarred, which would make surviving in a hellish place like the EoT almost impossible. You would need to have your wits about you there surely, even for a Primarch. Khan, even if he has survived,tortured in captivity, on the run or whatever, hes likely hopelessly insane. By yourself, in a Dark Eldar webway maze, for ten thousand years? Even for a Primarch thats tough. Russ maybe. Depends on his mind-state, whether he felt like making a suicide attempt to kill one of his brothers, or is doing some Che Guevara shit in there.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

DeathJester921 said:


> You seem to be missing the point that the apothecaries knew next to nothing of their primarchs physiology. That line is the thoughts of the apothecaries. For all we know, he could be far enough from death to still have a fighting chance at living through any miracle treatment created by his sons, if they ever were able to create a miracle treatment.


 He was described as dead by the writer of the fluff, not the apothecaries. He's not the first primarch to die.Before him they had already decleared primarchs dead before (Sanguinius,Horus,Manus, etc) so this isn't groundbreaking science. While they most likely were astonished by his physique even Horus's sons knew when he was dying after being wounded on Davin. They were going to watch him bleed out. Being astonished by a primarchs constitution is one thing, they are all advanced enough to know alive from dead. You have no grounds for thinking the he's coming back other than fan boy wishes. I wish they would bring Curze back. But guess what, besides having your throat slashed open and poisoned by warp poison decapitation is pretty final even for a primarch. By your logic though even though his sons saw his severed head, they didn't know enough about his biology to rightfully delcare him dead. This isn't Napoleon Dynamite. Though they aren't the Emperor, the astartes know dead from alive.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I don't think we should underestimate the primarchs when it comes to them NOT being confirmed dead. They were built for war. Their minds are built to handle huge amounts of trauma. Corax is completely capable of being alive. If you listened to the Raven Guard audio drama you'll know he has abilities that would make him a terror in the EOT despite his emotional trauma. Russ's sons have already stated that he will return when he sees fit (13th company). The Khan is hunting as he was created to do. I don't believe the the Dark Eldar would be capable of taking him down specifically because he went afer them. I don't know where this imprisonment is coming from, but there is no one in the Dark City that would be capable of defeating Khan one on one much less with his retinue. Besides we've already established that time moves different like in the EOT.

He could very likely not have experienced 10k in there. Vulkan has already stated what needs to happen for him to come back. The same goes for the watchers in the dark awakening the Lion for the final battle. Now the dead ones. I'm sure the Emperor could heal Gulliman (though it's not in the fluff for it to happen) and maybe Sanguinius.Dorn, since he's a skeleton, would probably be a bit more tricky.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> He was described as dead by the writer of the fluff, not the apothecaries. He's not the first primarch to die.Before him they had already decleared primarchs dead before (Sanguinius,Horus,Manus, etc) so this isn't groundbreaking science. While they most likely were astonished by his physique even Horus's sons knew when he was dying after being wounded on Davin. They were going to watch him bleed out. Being astonished by a primarchs constitution is one thing, they are all advanced enough to know alive from dead. You have no grounds for thinking the he's coming back other than fan boy wishes. I wish they would bring Curze back. But guess what, besides having your throat slashed open and poisoned by warp poison decapitation is pretty final even for a primarch. By your logic though even though his sons saw his severed head, they didn't know enough about his biology to rightfully delcare him dead. This isn't Napoleon Dynamite. Though they aren't the Emperor, the astartes know dead from alive.


I do believe your purposefully misreading it. By my logic, a decapitated primarch could still be called alive? Really? No. They may not know much about their physiology, but that is one thing that they know is a definite kill. I don't know where you drew that statement from. 

Who's perspective is the fluff in the codexes written from? The Chapters? Or some omnipotent being in the sky? Likely the beliefs of the chapters being recounted through whatever events were written. I'm looking at it differently than you obviously. So i'm still sticking with my belief that the Apothecaries believed he was at the moment of death upon being put into stasis, though that may or may not be true. All I was stating is what was possible.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Deadeye776 said:


> I'm sure the Emperor could heal Gulliman


Who's gonna heal the Emperor? 

This thread has wandered off point slightly, but that's no bad thing. However, I will go back to the original quote from _Fulgrim_ about Eldrad's vision that the heroes that return come out of the Eye of Terror. While the Khan did head into the webway, it's still a means of traversing the warp, so it is possible he made his way into the Eye. This rules out everyone except the four who we know headed in that general direction, though the Lion would be the easiest to write back into the fluff.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

This is an exact quote of the codex Jester:
written by an omnipotent being in the sky called Graham Mcneill 

Roboute Guilliman lay unmoving, a single bright slash of blood across his throat. Not even the primarch's Godlike physique could halt the spread of Flugrim's poison and, as Guilliman died, the Apothecaries set up a stasis field and transported their leader back to Macraggae. To this day, Guilliman remains entombed within the stasis field , held immobile in his marble throne in the temple of correction on Macraggae. There are those who claim that the primarchs wounds are healing, but this is clearly impossible within the time locked bubble of the stasis field.

He is dead, fluff can be re-written or a miracle can happen, divine intervention by the Emperor could resuscitate him, but according to fluff he is dead, and so until fluff is re-written or new evidence comes to light he is indeed dead.

Russ, khan, vulkan, corax are all alive, Corax can be very good at hide and seek when he wants to be, the other three....well they are badass, enough said, Lion is definitely coming back.
The rest however are dead until the advent of new information.

i like to masturbate while thinking dorn will come back too, wont change the fluff though.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

Once the Lion figures out the rubix cube that Luther threw at him he will return, he will take names and he will kick ass!


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Lost&Damned said:


> This is an exact quote of the codex Jester:
> written by an omnipotent being in the sky called Graham Mcneill
> 
> Roboute Guilliman lay unmoving, a single bright slash of blood across his throat. Not even the primarch's Godlike physique could halt the spread of Flugrim's poison and, as Guilliman died, the Apothecaries set up a stasis field and transported their leader back to Macraggae. To this day, Guilliman remains entombed within the stasis field , held immobile in his marble throne in the temple of correction on Macraggae. There are those who claim that the primarchs wounds are healing, but this is clearly impossible within the time locked bubble of the stasis field.


Hi new guy jumping into conversation here but that passage of text does not tell me that Guilliman is dead.

Reading it letter by letter and by context it tells me that Guilliman is dying when the apothecaries decided to entomb their lord in stasis. Quite often when someone might be shot for example and waiting for paramedics to heal them back to a stable condition we could quite easily say they are in the process of dying or that they are dead. The same equally applies here. Heck we even have people who have died because of some biological impossibility like the heart has stopped working for several hours before waking up again. Could also be same situation here with Guilliman. 

In short we don't know. None of us can claim to know enough about the primarchs to say when they are truly dead (after all they are fictional beings here) and so GW could have him be healed anytime they want or need him to be. For all we know he may well be healing in stasis since the 41st millenium is full of unikely to impossible situations anyway this might well be just another intance of it.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

I know we're zooming off topic, but if he Emperor is slowly rotting away in his stasis field, then surely Guillman could be healing in his!


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Oh my god. The Emperor is on a life support system, who the heck said it was a stasis feild. You just made that up. Second, the Gulliman died. The warp poison killed him. He is frozen in his moment of death, that's in the fluff. Go look it up. The hope and wishes of the people of Ultramar may or may not bring him back, but until that happens the man is dead. He's entombed. You don't put someone who's still alive in a tomb. Ask Dorn. He slapped his dad in a life support system instead of the golden coffin ( I just made that up, I don't know if there's a golden coffin). 
Uriel Ventris and the rest of the Ultramarines have never expressed any hope of Gulliman coming back. No one has communicated anything of his return in any venue at all. There's no literature saying that Gulliman will return for the final battle with Chaos. He's done. Not just done, he's Vladamir Dunski. Russian extremist in being done.The word dead and Gulliman are one like Dorn, Sanguinius, Manus, and Horus. They are all dead, and so's Papa Smurf. "Fulgrim was now a serpentine creature of immense stature, and multi-limbed. Each limb carried a poisoned sword, and in the clash he stabbed Guilliman in the neck; Guilliman was interred in the Stasis field by the Apothecaries, and remains frozen in the instant of death, while Fulgrim escaped back to the Eye of Terror."- Lexicanum from the Novel Nightbringer[6] 

Case in point to the deadliness of the poison. The only reason Horus lived after being wounded was because he took the deal with the Chaos Gods. If Horus had stayed loyal to the Emperor, the Gods covered their gamble by having him poisoned and death would have awaited. So the only person that could heal Gulliman would be the Chaos Gods (not going to happen, I don't see Rob taking the deal or it being offered), The Emperor (which is obviously predicated on his coming back), or Isha the eldar goddess giving the UM's the cure. Other than that he's a dead man.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> Oh my god. The Emperor is on a life support system, who the heck said it was a stasis feild. You just made that up.


No, he didn't. Some sources claim the Golden Throne encases the Emperor in stasis.


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## merp141 (Aug 1, 2012)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No, he didn't. Some sources claim the Golden Throne encases the Emperor in stasis.


Seconded! However we can quite easily doubt the veracity of any of these sources. Regardless of the means (life support or stasis) the emperor lives after a fashion.



Deadeye776 said:


> Case in point to the deadliness of the poison. The only reason Horus lived after being wounded was because he took the deal with the Chaos Gods.


Erm, I'm sorry to burst your bubble but there are plenty of examples in real life where someone was poisoned, suffered injuries that were "definately going to kill [them]" or even had some illness that should have been eventually fatal and survived. Statistics dude; lethality selects for resistance.

Back in universe all we know is that the poison *was* killing him. The Kinebrach had never encountered a being quite like a Primarch ever before. From the confusion of the apothecary we can safely assume that Primarch biology was as different from Astartes biology as theirs are from ours; we have no idea how his body was going to react, maybe it was going to fight it off eventually; we were never given the opportunity to find out.

Finally two points. If the person writing the book had any clue at that point he would have realised that the "cure" for the poison was actually quite simple (note this is me extrapolating from the information given in the book)
Secondly Guilliman *could still come back* because its a story. All they have to do is pull a big deus ex out of their hairy little bums and any argument you can make is void. Plus GW seems to love rewriting fluff... =/

And one thing I would say is don't deal in absolutes; there is always far more ambiguity than any of us would like and that has to be taken into account.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

merp141 said:


> had some illness that should have been eventually fatal and survived.


Exhibit A for your argument: Me.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I think sometimes people just disagree with me here for the sake of it. Okay, here we go. The point of a stasis (since you all don't know) is suspended animation. That means (since you all don't know) that whatever condition you were entered in is the condition you will remain in since your animation is......You guessed it suspended. Robute Gulliman looks exactly like the moment Fulgrim kicked his ass 10k previously. The blood is still by accounts bright red across his throat. Now,why is all this important? I'll tell you why. The Emperor on the other hand looks nothing like the man who's suffered the wounds at the hands of Horus.

The Emperor's body is exposed to the atmosphere. Despite being on life-support, he's still decaying. His wounds seem trivial to the cadaver his body now looks like. That doesn't happen when you are in a stasis feild. If he had been interred in a stasis feild like Gulliman, The Emperor (whle still gravely wounded) would have flesh and blood still visible as well as his wounds being fresh. Just like the fluff on Gulliman describes his wound as still being visible and fresh. That's the point of stasis, you freeze that person in that moment for preservation. One look at the Emperor and you can tell that keeping him barely alive trumped preservation. 

No one here has disputed whether or not Gulliman has the ability to come back.This is a Sci fi genre that has broken the laws of physics as a norm. If GW wanted to they can find a way to bring EVERY primarch back. What I'm arguing is fluff. At this point in time the casualties of the Primarchs are Sanguinius, Horus, Dorn, Manus,and Gulliman. Being mortally wounded and frozen in the moment of his death still means that Rob's is dead. I don't really know where your going with the analogy about poison and I'm sorry to burst your bubble but Horus was going to die. 

The warp poison can't be compared to a normal reality (ours I mean) poison. Nurgle concocts these things in the warp using ingredients that may not be based on any known biology. This was a planned attack on Horus. They used a poison that was egineered to defeat his immune system. The fact that it wasn't even a fatal wound he was dealt, in the shoulder I believe, and it was still killing him should put this in a frame for you. Gulliman was slashed in the throat. That's a mortal wound with a normal blade. With warp poison it's a wrap. They wanted to kill Gulliman. He was organizing the Imperium. He would never forsake his honor for Chaos power. They knew he would rather die than do what Horus did. If Horus had decided to remain loyal, short of putting him in stasis, how do you propose he was going to live with that wound?


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

now i cant find the quote, but in addition to what deadeye said, the sword i believe was one which If the name of a target was spoken to the blade, the weapon would become totally inimical to that being on an almost molecular level, producing poisons and toxins tailored specifically to them.


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## merp141 (Aug 1, 2012)

Tawa said:


> Exhibit A for your argument: Me.


Ok, this is a story I want to hear!




Deadeye776 said:


> I think sometimes people just disagree with me here for the sake of it. Okay, here we go. The point of a stasis (since you all don't know) is suspended animation. That means (since you all don't know) that whatever condition you were entered in is the condition you will remain in since your animation is......You guessed it suspended.


Perhaps its because you come across as condescending and impolite? I for one do not appreciate the condescension and I would appreciate if you would moderate your tone sir. And yes, the *point* of suspended animation is that it is *slowed not stopped* (look it up). Stasis is a state where all forces cancel and the subject is held static in time, but I digress..

The nature of time is a progressive increase in *entropy*. You cannot stop entropy. Its inevitable. You can slow it, but not stop it (by our current understanding of physics). In fact almost all the energy in our bodies goes into homeostasis which is in essence trying to staveoff entropy. This is a fundamental force in the universe. You can say "oh well they use a blah blah <insert technobabble here> and THATS why its perfect stasis" but really unless they found a way to stop the laws of physics working in our world (or perhaps use some warp based technology since the warp has different or maybe even non existant laws of physics) then stasis doesnt work. Suspended animation does, in fact we can and do use crude suspended animation currently. In science we store macromolecules or even whole cells under liquid nitrogen in order to suspend their functions. Its really quite handy.



Deadeye776 said:


> I don't really know where your going with the analogy about poison and I'm sorry to burst your bubble but Horus was going to die.


*Prove it* good sir and I will take my hat off to you



Deadeye776 said:


> The warp poison can't be compared to a normal reality (ours I mean) poison. Nurgle concocts these things in the warp using ingredients that may not be based on any known biology. This was a planned attack on Horus. They used a poison that was egineered to defeat his immune system. The fact that it wasn't even a fatal wound he was dealt, in the shoulder I believe, and it was still killing him should put this in a frame for you. Gulliman was slashed in the throat. That's a mortal wound with a normal blade. With warp poison it's a wrap. They wanted to kill Gulliman. He was organizing the Imperium. He would never forsake his honor for Chaos power. They knew he would rather die than do what Horus did. If Horus had decided to remain loyal, short of putting him in stasis, how do you propose he was going to live with that wound?



This is something I've actually put some thought into. Ok, thats a mortal wound to one of us but shattered skulls, having most of your skin burned off or having an arm chopped off are just flesh wounds for a space marine. They wouldn't even slow a Primarch down. From what I remember from the book the poison bound to his RBCs in the place of oxygen and so starved his body of oxygen. This is the similar to CO poisoning (only ye know, magical) and stopped his body from clotting, so he kept loosing blood. Really thats not the hardest thing to fix, particularly if it is tailored to HIS physiology; just do something a little different (not the imperium's strong point but however..)

And on the point that "poison can't be compared [etc]" Isn't everything in the warp just a twisted shadow of something in our universe? That was the impression I always got. Otherwise the creatures of the warp would be un-knowable and impossible to understand; being from a parasitic realm so alien to ours that that even the fundamental laws of physics don't apply. Furthermore the chaos gods would not be able to manipulate creatures from the mortal realm unless they had a very good knowledgeable of what they're made of on a very fundamental level. If in some place it says that the empyrean and the material realm are definately totally seperate, independant and inviolate then by all means point it out to me.




Lost&Damned said:


> now i cant find the quote, but in addition to what deadeye said, the sword i believe was one which If the name of a target was spoken to the blade, the weapon would become totally inimical to that being on an almost molecular level, producing poisons and toxins tailored specifically to them.


Thats the thing; specific to HIM. He is unique. Such a poison would be far less useful against Corax, Alpharious or Vulkan, and likely next to useless against Russ, Magnus or Sanguineous (their genetic makeup is very different to that of the other primarches). Blood transfusions might prove useful and even if they didn't then you go the synthetic route. completely synthetic proteins can now be made, even if it uses a great deal of time and resources. I'd imagine that such a thing would be easy in the 31st millenium. Aditionally I am a bit of a haemostasis lover and I can tell you; clots are complicated but not difficult. Blood loss should not have been a problem at all at all, and Space Marines don't go into shock


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## merp141 (Aug 1, 2012)

Oh, and pardon me for getting off topic. As I said in my first post there is the potential for any one of a number of the Primarches to come back, or maybe none. Its impossible to say since we can't actually gather any hard imformation.

So the answer is; What Eldrad said could mean that for the end of times the eye of terror will release a bunch of heroes to fight on the side of order. By this he could mean all the lost-but-loyal primarches, some of them or none of them. Likely some of the heroes will be surviving Eldar from the lost Eldar homeworlds that are in the Eye of Terror.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

merp141 said:


> Thats the thing; specific to HIM. He is unique. Such a poison would be far less useful against Corax, Alpharious or Vulkan, and likely next to useless against Russ, Magnus or Sanguineous (their genetic makeup is very different to that of the other primarches). Blood transfusions might prove useful and even if they didn't then you go the synthetic route. completely synthetic proteins can now be made, even if it uses a great deal of time and resources. I'd imagine that such a thing would be easy in the 31st millenium. Aditionally I am a bit of a haemostasis lover and I can tell you; clots are complicated but not difficult. Blood loss should not have been a problem at all at all, and Space Marines don't go into shock


Fulgrim speaks Guillimans name onto the balde, it now becomes effective and geared towards Guillimans destruction, they tried blood transfusions etc.... he still almost died, and the problem wasn't blood clots.

heres some quotes:

‘This is a guess, but it looks like this particular poison induces a
form of anemic hypoxia. Once it enters the bloodstream, it’s absorbed
exponentially by the red blood cells, in preference to oxygen.
With the Warmaster’s accelerated metabolism, the toxin was
carried efficiently around his system, damaging his tissue cells as
it went, so they were unable to make proper use of the reduced
oxygen content.’


the Warmaster was immune to such things.’
‘And so he is, but this is like nothing I’ve ever seen before… it’s
as though it’s been specifically designed to kill him. It’s got precisely
the right genetic camouflage to fool his enhanced biological
defences and allow it to do the maximum amount of damage.
It’s a primarch killer – pure and simple.’

if someone could dig up the part where ferrus gets poisoned in the novel the "primarchs" im pretty sure its relevant but dont have the book with me, if someone could check its relevance then quote the approriate sections, i would very much appreciate it.

and regarding warp poison its simultaneously every single poison, disease, malady that ever was, will be, is and some that are simply creations of nurgle.
Nurgle's poison almost killed Mortarion and his entire legion, furthermore, Mortarions adoptive farther a psyker that venerated Nurgle almost killed mortarion with his poison.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

The blade used against Guilliman was called an Anathame, Lost&Damned

That quote you gave from the Ultramarine book? From the perspective of Uriel Ventris, I believe. As i've said, regular marines didn't understand their primarchs physiology. He very well could still be alive in the stasis field. There is no definitive proof that he is dead, but there is no definitive proof that he is alive. We'll have to leave it up to GW to decide his ultimate fate


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

yes, a specific target, nothing there says it cant simply be reprogrammed, by saying another persons name of the blade.
as i said in my previous post
Kinebrach is the name of the make, the one that was stolen by Erebus is called the anathame, it is still however a Kinebrach, it has simply been christened a name.


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## merp141 (Aug 1, 2012)

Lost&Damned said:


> they tried blood transfusions etc.... he still almost died, and the problem wasn't blood clots.


I also mentioned the uptake by RBCs (Red Blood Cells) in my post. I haven't read the book in years so anything I said that is wrong I'll readily admit to.



Lost&Damned said:


> the Warmaster was immune to such things.’
> ‘And so he is, but this is like nothing I’ve ever seen before… it’s
> as though it’s been specifically designed to kill him. It’s got precisely
> the right *molecular* camouflage to fool his enhanced biological defences and allow it to do the maximum amount of damage. It’s a primarch killer – pure and simple.’


It says genetic in the book I take it? That really makes no sense whatsoever; a toxin doesn't have any nucleic acids. However molecular camoflage makes sense, lots of stuff does that. Regardless I never said that it definately wouldn't kill Horus, just that we can't say that it definately would have..



Lost&Damned said:


> and regarding warp poison its simultaneously every single poison, disease, malady that ever was, will be, is and some that are simply creations of nurgle.
> Nurgle's poison almost killed Mortarion and his entire legion, furthermore, Mortarions adoptive farther a psyker that venerated Nurgle almost killed mortarion with his poison.


Is that a direct quote from a book/story?

Yes, however with Mortarion it was the direct influence of a chaos god in the warp where they are most powerful. Plus in the warp the laws of nature and physics don't apply... And his father was a sorcerer. The Anathame was a knife they kept safely on display.. In fact I actually have some doubts as to WHAT the weapon was and its origins if they were able to store it in a museum without any problems.. Surely an intelligent weapon of Nurgle would do something?

Actually, I might just set up a thread on the anathame. Anything we can find on it; quotes, history, uses, random fluff.. Lost&Damned, you seem a level-headed individual; would you care to join my in this endeavour?


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## merp141 (Aug 1, 2012)

DeathJester921 said:


> The blade used against Guilliman was called an Anathame, Lost&Damned


The anathame it was, but L&D is correct in calling it the Kinebrach. I believe there have been other "anathame's" in 40k but this specific one was made by the Kinebrach species I believe; hence Kinebrach Anathame



Lost&Damned said:


> Kinebrach is the name of the make, the one that was stolen by Erebus is called the anathame, it is still however a Kinebrach, it has simply been christened a name.


Just checking; the Kinebrach was the Interex species that made the Anathame was it not?


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

alright i'll whoop your ass in the other thread too 
-so what if his father was a sorcerer, the blade was made using sorcery.
-the fact Mortarion was almost killed by Nurgles power in the warp makes no difference to the point i was making, the point being diseases can kill primarchs.
-the weapon was kept in the museum, the same reason the sword that corrupted Fulgrim was left with an alien race, so the respective primarchs could be corrupted by them, them being the medium.It was intelligent to leave it with the interex
oh and that IS a direct quote, i COPIED AND PASTED IT.
regarding it being every disease and malady is the book flight of the einstein, please dont make me trawl through it, i know its right.

The Kinebrach were a species of simian-like humanoid aliens who co-existed with the humans of the Interex culture before the Great Crusade. 

One example was a blade known as an Anathame, dedicated to the Chaos God Nurgle. If the name of a target was spoken to the blade, the weapon would become totally inimical to that being on an almost molecular level, producing poisons and toxins tailored specifically to them. One of these blades was stolen by the Word Bearers' First Chaplain, Erebus, from the Hall of Devices in the Interex's Museum of Technology on Xenobia.


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## merp141 (Aug 1, 2012)

Starting thread. Please post your last comment in the new thread


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

im confused where did you get molecular from?
edit: nvm i get it.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Lost&Damned said:


> yes, a specific target, nothing there says it cant simply be reprogrammed, by saying another persons name of the blade.
> as i said in my previous post
> Kinebrach is the name of the make, the one that was stolen by Erebus is called the anathame, it is still however a Kinebrach, it has simply been christened a name.


No, all blades of that type were called anathames. That is what was said in Horus Rising when they were touring that part of the museum. The Kinebrach were the ones who made it. Anyway, upon reading your post before mine, which was posted while I was typing mine, I deleted that bit.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

> merp141 said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, this is a story I want to hear!
> ...


 Are you fucking with me or are you serious? I like to laugh to if this is a joke. I read what you wrote. You just tried to apply normal science to a being that was created with energies from a universe outside of our own (Primarchs). Clots are complicated but not difficult? So you believe that the reason Horus almost died was because they didn't use your method? Bro, no shit, Horus was pretty much poisoned with the equivalent of magic as far as 40k science understands it. How do I know this? Temba turned into a Great Unclean One and took on a Primarch on a planet where are the dead returned as zombies. Why are you trying to apply a scientific biological reasoning to this? Your the guy in the lab during the zombie apocalypse trying to convince everyone that the walking cadavers are just sick people in need of treatment. This argument isn't going anywhere and I'm not sure why I'm even in this debate so I'm not. Good luck.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> I think sometimes people just disagree with me here for the sake of it.


If you were referring to me there, I was merely pointing out that your statement -


Deadeye776 said:


> Oh my god. The Emperor is on a life support system, who the heck said it was a stasis feild. You just made that up.


- was incorrect because: A) _Oldman78_ did not just make it up, because: B) Many sources (perhaps even a majority) make reference to the Golden Throne bearing the Emperor in some form of stasis.



Deadeye776 said:


> Okay, here we go. The point of a stasis (since you all don't know) is suspended animation. That means (since you all don't know) that whatever condition you were entered in is the condition you will remain in since your animation is......You guessed it suspended.


Actually, you are incorrect again. Stasis fields do not completely suspend timeflow, but slow it to a snail's pace.

EDIT: I just realised you have conceded that point.



Deadeye776 said:


> Now,why is all this important? I'll tell you why. The Emperor on the other hand looks nothing like the man who's suffered the wounds at the hands of Horus... The Emperor's body is exposed to the atmosphere. Despite being on life-support, he's still decaying. His wounds seem trivial to the cadaver his body now looks like. That doesn't happen when you are in a stasis feild. If he had been interred in a stasis feild like Gulliman, The Emperor (whle still gravely wounded) would have flesh and blood still visible as well as his wounds being fresh. Just like the fluff on Gulliman describes his wound as still being visible and fresh. That's the point of stasis, you freeze that person in that moment for preservation. One look at the Emperor and you can tell that keeping him barely alive trumped preservation.


How do you know what exactly the Emperor looks like?

Anyway, I do not wish to get into a protracted discussion about this, I was merely pointing out that there are numerous sources throughout the lore which refer to the Golden Throne as some form of stasis field.


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## dragonkingofthestars (May 3, 2010)

this may have been brought up before: but when Eldred said, "humanity's end will come on Armageddon" could he have been talking about the PLANET armageddon? 

a planet which has had one major chaos incersion, and two massive ork attacks.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

dragonkingofthestars said:


> this may have been brought up before: but when Eldred said, "humanity's end will come on Armageddon" could he have been talking about the PLANET armageddon?
> 
> a planet which has had one major chaos incersion, and two massive ork attacks.


The exact quote is "Already, Eldrad had seen the death of their race, the blood soaked fields of _the world named for the end of days_." It would certainly point to Armageddon from humanity's point of view. It might have something to do with Rhana Dandra, the Eldar's own end time prophecy, which predicts the Eldars' final battle with chaos, but in which other races will fight.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

> How do you know what exactly the Emperor looks like?



I've attatched a pretty accurate picture of what the big guy looks like currently. As you've said that time is supposed to be slowed to a snails pace in a stasis feild, your words. Please compare Gulliman's body with that of the Emperor. TEll me if you can tell he's 10k years old. Notice that his body has continued to age to the point that he looks exactly what a 10k year old cadaver would resemble. Missing eye, torn off arm, sheared off skin from the right side of his face. Yeah, I'm gonna say that if you can see any kind of stasis feild here it's obviously not working. This is an aged corpse unlike Gulliman that has been perfectly preserved in stasis. Oh in case you want another source, check on the beginning of every 40k novel, they give the description of the Emperor there as well.


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

well where on emperors earth did you find that picture? or did you create it? its amazing.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

tabbytomo said:


> well where on emperors earth did you find that picture? or did you create it? its amazing.


That picture has been around for a while. You could probably google it and find that picture within a few minutes. 

Its funny how no one seems to notice the corpse has two left arms though.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> I've attatched a pretty accurate picture of what the big guy looks like currently. As you've said that time is supposed to be slowed to a snails pace in a stasis feild, your words. Please compare Gulliman's body with that of the Emperor. TEll me if you can tell he's 10k years old. Notice that his body has continued to age to the point that he looks exactly what a 10k year old cadaver would resemble. Missing eye, torn off arm, sheared off skin from the right side of his face. Yeah, I'm gonna say that if you can see any kind of stasis feild here it's obviously not working. This is an aged corpse unlike Gulliman that has been perfectly preserved in stasis. Oh in case you want another source, check on the beginning of every 40k novel, they give the description of the Emperor there as well.


Take into account the injuries the Emperor suffered at the hands of Horus though:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> There is an account of the battle in the Horus Heresy: Collected Visions. Basically Horus owns the Emperor the entire fight. Some of the Emperor's injuries include:
> 
> Crushed Windpie
> Severed Jugular
> ...


So in all seriousness, the Emperor being portrayed as a withered, corpse-like being *could* be representative of him in the aftermath of his duel with Horus. It also looks like that particular image you posted may have taken inspiration from the Collected Visions considering it shows the Emperor with his arm tore off, which comes from the Collected Visions account of the final duel. One important question would be, if the Emperor's body is not interred in stasis as you are arguing _Deadeye_, how would his physical body not withered away/decomposed completely after ten millennia?

However, other possibilities could include the Golden Throne's stasis field not being all-encompassing, therefore parts (or most) of the Emperor's physical body could be outside of the field. We simply don't know. All we do know, from the lore, is that Golden Throne maintains some form of stasis field, which helps keep the Emperor alive.

For those interested, there is a thread already on this topic.


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## merp141 (Aug 1, 2012)

Well I think this thread has gotten a bit off track.. =P

Also the amount of shits people give is rapidly dropping..

Regardless whatever mechanism is used to keep him alive is failing and he's dying. Whether its suspended animation or life support or magic(since supposedly anything is possible in 40k) the point is its not working so well anymore. The system is in itself irrelevant, the consequences of its failure is of consequence.

One last thing I feel I have to say to a certain someone who was posting in this thread; if you say physiology and poisons can't work the same as in our universe then by the same logic stasis doesn't have to work the same. So either you're wrong on one point or you're wrong on the other; both can't be true based on your logic. QED


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Take into account the injuries the Emperor suffered at the hands of Horus though:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The stasis feild would have preserved the body in better condition. Like the corpse of Gulliman, the Emperor and his wounds would look a lot fresher if he was in stasis. The Emperor is on a life support system of the Golden Throne. I'm pretty sure preservation beyond his vitals (as seen in pictures of his current state) was not an overwhelming problem.


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## merp141 (Aug 1, 2012)

Deadeye776 said:


> The stasis feild would have preserved the body in better condition.


This is assuming that a stasis field would work the same way in their world that it would work in this world. As you have already pointed out we can't apply real-universe science to 40k so in the same way the chances are "stasis" works differently due to it being based on different technology.

Oh and also the emperor has been on ice for far longer than Guilliman I believe, for how much longer I'm not sure; maybe we can get a date from someone?


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

After the codex Astartes was written Guilliman continued fighting for the Emperor for a hundred years before he was mortally wounded by the possessed fulgrim.
i dont know how long it took for the codex to be written and implemented


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Gulliman was murdered within a century or two after the Emperor. The definition of the 40k stasis feilds is that they slow time to the point of stagnance. Your saying the reason the Emperor looks like a mummy and Gulliman looks exactly as he did the moment he died is because of a century or two?


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## merp141 (Aug 1, 2012)

Deadeye776 said:


> The definition of the 40k stasis feilds is that they slow time to the point of stagnance.


Is that a definition right out of your magic 40k dictionary?



Deadeye776 said:


> Your saying the reason the Emperor looks like a mummy and Gulliman looks exactly as he did the moment he died is because of a century or two?


Nope, didn't say that. :so_happy:

On an unrelated note; lets not forget its the emperor. Defying the laws of his own universe is something he was rather good at, plus we can't judge things by the laws of their own universe because *magic*, remember? :grin:

Also apparently one of the books says that the anathame is not a nurgle weapon; its some kind of nanotech super-knife. So we're dealing with something of their physical world rather than *nurgle magic*

In addition; this thread is NOT about stasis or the emperor's decaying or anything like that. Someone go to a new thread. This one turned into a stupid pointless argument about something nobody really cares about. :sarcastichand:


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Your right, this has turned into a thread of you being wrong and we should drop it. Gulliman is not included in ANY PROPHECY including that of Eldrad's. Back up what you say with fluff. I can say that there is no opinion in 40k that has prophetic projections of Gulliman ever being back to battle in the end war with Chaos like the other primarchs. If you want to input your opinions, feel free, but don't expect me to take it like it's fluff.Oh by the way, my "magic 40k dictionary" 

Stasis field 












A Stasis Field is a name for both a device and the effect it causes. Essentially a time-warp generator, stasis fields create breaks in the normal flow of space-time within their area of effect, slowing massively the progress of causality. The closer one is to the centre of the stasis-field, the slower time appears to move; a single moment can take so long to play out inside a stasis field that it appears frozen to observers outside the effected area. Because the contents of a stasis field are divorced from the normal passage of time, it is effectively impossible to alter the conditions of the inside of the field in any way. This makes whatever is caught in the area of effect almost completely frozen and unable to be harmed.

Stasis fields are normally used to contain people and objects in effectively unchanging conditions. Possibly the most famous stasis field is that which encloses the body of the Ultramarines Primarch Roboute Guilliman, who was interred in a stasis field upon the moment of death. Eversor Assassins are kept in stasis chambers when not active in the field.

Source: The Warhammer 40,000: Battle Manual (otherwise known as my magical dictionary)


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

merp141 said:


> Ithis thread is NOT about stasis or the emperor's decaying or anything like that. Someone go to a new thread. This one turned into a stupid pointless argument about something nobody really cares about. :sarcastichand:


Too true. You boys have managed to get this thread to 8 pages without hardly discussing it's actual subject matter. If you want to discuss stasis fields and who smells worse, Guilliman of the emperor, start a new thread please instead of constantly derailing this one.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

How is this off track exactly? We are discussing Eldrad's prophecy which DOES NOT INCLUDE Gulliman. The heroes coming out of the warp? The prophecy is for those lost or hunting (I think Russ and the Khan) in the warp or webway. You brought up the prophecy, we are analyzing the contents.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Deadeye776 said:


> How is this off track exactly? We are discussing Eldrad's prophecy which DOES NOT INCLUDE Gulliman.


Yet you discuss him for pages. How is that not off track? Stasis fields and the emperor were not mentioned in the prophecy either.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Hey guys heres this really interesting.... BORING

Fuckin nora. just going to have another shower to get all the shit you two bitches have just been throwing around. Either of you two planning to star in 2 girls 1 cup; part the second?

As for that picture, can someone verify it being canon- ie GW licensed?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Lux said:


> I go purely by in text quotes only otherwise the fluff is to open to interpretation, thus I go by page and paragraph quotes.
> 
> It helps to keep things in line when discussing the material with other board members.


I must admit you can take a quite and run with it but fuck me you are like the some wierd testube baby created from usain bolt, mo farah, and heile gebre selasie when it comes to that.


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## khaosgurl (Jul 8, 2012)

Khorne's Fist said:


> I'm rereading the HH books from the start, and have got to _Fulgrim_, page 220/221. Eldrad is lamenting the fact that the immediate future of humanity is clouded to him, but he has seen the the end of humanity, including "...the great eye opening to release the the mighty heroes of legend trapped there to return to their warriors' sides for the final battle."
> 
> I can't believe I missed this the first time around. What else do you guys think it might be?
> 
> ...


I think it is a possibility, ESPECIALLY after reading Ferrus Manus short story in The Primarchs. Where I believe the reference the purged and forgotten. 

Personally I'm putting it in my head cannon.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Hey guys heres this really interesting.... BORING
> 
> Fuckin nora. just going to have another shower to get all the shit you two bitches have just been throwing around. Either of you two planning to star in 2 girls 1 cup; part the second?
> 
> As for that picture, can someone verify it being canon- ie GW licensed?


I don't think its GW licensed. I believe it is fan-made, but it is a damn good representation of what he possibly looks like right now.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

So, having skim-read most of this thread, am I the only one who took Eldrad to be referring to the Daemon-Primarchs, rather than the loyalist ones? They are still 'heroes of legend', particularly at the time Eldrad speaks the prophecy (which could easily have distorted his perception of the vision). And to my mind the loyalists weren't really trapped in the Eye. They all chose to go, knowing full well what that would mean. On the other hand the 'traitors' were generally mislead and misinformed as to why they should help Chaos and what it would do for (and to) them. Indeed, as currently Daemon's of massive power they are largely prevented from returning to reality (as all daemons are). Thus they are trapped. Whereas the fleshy loyalists can presumably leave anytime they want (and can capture and pilot a ship out).


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

DeathJester921 said:


> Except for the fact that they've been gone for millenia. MILLENIA. Russ and Corax ventured into the EoT alone. Primarch or no, they're likely dead. Likely overwhelmed by daemons. Not too sure about Vulkan and his disappearance, but if he went alone into the EoT like you suggested, then, again, probably overwhelmed by daemons. Perhaps Khan is still alive in the webway. Theres no way to be sure if they are still alive or not. Even primarchs can die as we've seen. They can make mistakes. They can be overwhelmed.
> 
> Khan, out of the four mentioned, is the only one besides Vulkan, since I don't know jack squat about his disappearnace and was only going off the fact that he's been gone for millenia, who may still be alive, and may be able to come back and lead his sons into battle.


This is true, but read your Night Lords. 10,000 years later and to the Night Lords the HH is a bad memory a couple hundred years old because time in the eye is different than time out of it.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

cheeto said:


> This is true, but read your Night Lords. 10,000 years later and to the Night Lords the HH is a bad memory a couple hundred years old because time in the eye is different than time out of it.


Already know. Been pointed out plenty of times in the thread as well. Who's to say everyone experiences it the same though?


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Feel free to recognize a corpse in any rendition. We've all read how badly he looks in the 41st millenium. Oh and this is from the Black Library so yeah it's licensed.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Have to say though, his hands aren't decayed there. There's skin, fingernails etc without any noticable rot. His face melted? Well that explains the skull bit. His chest looks rotted, maybe that's exposed to the air, for all we know behind all the tubes and stuff at the back he could be hiding a slab of muscle like Mr Olympia.

I suspect a 10k year old corpse would have no meat whatso ever, and also possibly no skeleton if he was just sat off rotting.

He just waits until no one is looking and gets his ancient DS out.

I reckon Eldrad is referencing the return of some of the Primarchs, hopefully Russ. Could possibly fit in with FW doing some of the Horus Heresy armies in the future?

I'd lmao if the Lion came back into the fold and he was a chaos lover and Astellan (or whatever his name was) was right. I know so many people who'd cry like fuck!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> The stasis feild would have preserved the body in better condition.


Unless of course he was in a similar condition when he was interred in said stasis; which is plausable given the mauling he received at the hands of Horus.

Or of course; considering the Emperor is in a state of constant vigilance; using his god-like powers to protect humanity (and the galaxy as a whole) from the depredations of Chaos, and thus in a constant state of agony from the amount of energy and willpower such a task requires; the degradation of his corpse, even in stasis, is not outside the realms of possibility.

Guilliman's corpse seems to be in a much better condition because (as far as we know) he only suffered a throat wound and was subsequently interred in stasis, and has been unable to do anything (read: dead) since. Where as the Emperor (going off his list of injuries from the account of his duel with Horus) would have already looked corpse-like when he was discovered by Dorn on the _Vengeful Spirit_. That, coupled with a hundred centuries of ceaselessly projecting his psychic might from the Golden Throne could have had a detrimental effect on his 'body', despite being embroiled in some manner of stasis.

I see it as those we have two options: 
1) The Emperor is interred in stasis, and: A) thus looks similar now to how he did immediately after his duel with Horus. Or B) his body has degraded further in the ten millennia since the Siege of Terra, despite being in stasis.
2) The Emperor is not interred in stasis and has managed to avoid completely decomposing in the ten millennia since the Siege of Terra.

Though, factoring in the Emperor's psychic abilities could possibly throw both options out of the window! Personally, I think given the lore (that the Golden Throne maintains stasis fields), it seems most likely that the Emperor's corpse is interred in stasis; and either looked corpse-like after his duel with Horus - thus explaining why he is a corpse now, or his body has degraded further (despite being in stasis) due to the constant agony and strain he endures, and the constant stream of souls he devours.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Cote, c'mon you can do better than that. Unless some fluff came out that I don't know about then we go with the description of the battle with Emp and Horus. Popped his eye out, sheared the skin from half his face, ripped his arm off, and broke his back.Nothin in that description descibes the Emperor being discovered looking like an emasicated cadaver, fucked up yes, but a mummy no. If you want to speculate that the strain is what's making him like the way he is then yes. But we are talking about if Gulliman can actually come back and the answer is currently no. He needs to be revived by the Emperor or Chaos Gods. The other primarchs need to be awakened or found but he needs a rebirth along with Dorn, Ferrus, Sanguinius, Horus, Curze, and Mortarion's pride.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I'm leaning towards the partial stasis theory. If it were completely enclosed, the Emperor would probably be completely enclosed as well, and we know well that he isn't.


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## merp141 (Aug 1, 2012)

This thread is supposed to be whether or not Eldrad foresaw that the missing primarches would return. That was answered.

Then it turned into "which primarches could return and how?". That too was answered.

Then it turned into a discussion about the emperor and guilliman's current physical states. Then it turned into Deadeye arguing with everyone and saying he's right about a fictional thing that doesn't matter. This is never going to be answered and people will keep going on about how they are right for an extended period.

So, based on the above comment can someone shut down this thread. Here; I even made a new thread so that you can keep discussing it and it will actually be on topic! :grin:

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1285888#post1285888

Good day gentlemen :victory:


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

If the op requests closure or somebody violates the forum rules here, I will consider it. Until then, a slight deviation from the original topic is fine. I'm happy to let fools argue so long as it's civilized.


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## merp141 (Aug 1, 2012)

Serpion5 said:


> a slight deviation from the original topic is fine.


It became "How stasis works" for a little while before descending into the emperor's health at the end of the M31 and back to stasis, but who am I to argue with a mod.



Serpion5 said:


> I'm happy to let fools argue so long as it's civilized.


Our opinions of what is "civilised" may differ, but again who am I to argue with a mod.

Regardless the new topic is there if anyone wants to use it.


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