# Alpha Legion...am I the only one who can't stand their fluff



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I can't stand the Alpha Legion's fluff, there's something about it I find inherently annoying 

the Alpha Legion blah blah this...or did they?

the Alpha Legion blah blah that...or did they?

everything is part of Alpharius' grand plan!
the Alpha Legion is behind everything!
they outwit everyone!
they're so tricky, they've never been beaten! 
they're never surprised, only "apparently" surprised...

if you're facing the Alpha Legion, you might as well shoot yourself, half the time that's what their enemies do. I'm convinced that if all the other pre-heresy legions teamed up against the Alpha Legion, the latter would cause all 17 other legions to annihilate each other 

and people say the Ultramarines' fluff is ridiculous...


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Such blasphemy you spew..

I don't see what's so hard to grasp. 

The Alpha Legion are the most secretive and spy-like of all the legions and are masters of subterfuge.

They think outside the box and plan everything ahead and have backups for their backup plans, thats the beauty about them.

They're the opposite of the rigid and disciplined Ultramarines whose tactics cannot withstand their ever-changing plans.

Honestly I think only Lion El' Johnson, Horus or maybe Magnus with his psychic sorcery could think up ways of defeating or outsmarting the Alpha Legion and thats assuming Alpharius feels like letting them win every now and then


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## Gluttoniser (Aug 14, 2010)

I think it was rather heroic Alpharius took one for humanity when he chose to align with Horus during the Heresy, whether the Cabel lied to him or not. The thought that he would willingly sacrifise humanity in order to defeat Chaos forever is in the long term very noble. Shame it didn't work out as Alpharius planned.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Gluttoniser said:


> I think it was rather heroic Alpharius took one for humanity when he chose to align with Horus during the Heresy, whether the Cabel lied to him or not. The thought that he would willingly sacrifise humanity in order to defeat Chaos forever is in the long term very noble. Shame it didn't work out as Alpharius planned.


Perhaps his plan is an ongoing one no? Especially since it is most likely that he is still alive.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Or is Alpharius alive?

Moving to the original question either I am one of the few or one of the many but I love the Alpha Legion fluff. They seem like an entire legion of spies that seem better worshipping Tzeentch than the thousand Sons do at times.

Oh the Alpha Legion do get whipped sometimes. Look at poor Kernax Voldorious in the Space Marine Codex.


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## Gluttoniser (Aug 14, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Perhaps his plan is an ongoing one no? Especially since it is most likely that he is still alive.


Personally I disagree with this. The Cabal foretold that Everything depended on Warmasters Horus victory or defeat during the siege on Terra. If he succeeded Chaos would ultimately destroy itself, if Horus failed on the other hand. Chaos would exist forever, free to corrupt new possible lifeforms in the future. Alpharius joined Chaos because he wanted to be sure that Horus saw victory. If the Alpha legion was on Horus side, Horus had one less enemy to fight and his chances of victory would have risen. Horus failed however, and Alpharius sacrifise, though noble, was in vain...


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> They think outside the box and plan everything ahead and have backups for their backup plans, thats the beauty about them.


yes, and I'm pretty sure Tzeentch took lessons in trickery from Alpharius 



Gluttoniser said:


> Shame it didn't work out as Alpharius planned.


or did it? DUN DUN DUN 

I know! it was Alpharius who was using the Cabal
I bet everything is going exactly according to Alpharius' master plan


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Or is Alpharius alive?
> 
> Moving to the original question either I am one of the few or one of the many but I love the Alpha Legion fluff. They seem like an entire legion of spies that seem better worshipping Tzeentch than the thousand Sons do at times.
> 
> Oh the Alpha Legion do get whipped sometimes. Look at poor Kernax Voldorious in the Space Marine Codex.


Ugh please don't go there. The Hunt for Voldorious did a disservice for the Alpha Legion and made them sound like your regular chaos worshipper, completyl disregarding the lore behind the Alpha Legion.

And again, I believe the AL and the Night Lords are the two chaos-aligned legions that are the most resistant to the whisperings of Chaos as they both despise of it and simply consider Chaos as tools to add to their arsenal of tearing down the Imperium. I'm not saying members of both chapters have not truly become servants of Chaos but I'm just stating that they are the most resistant of the bunch.[/QUOTE]



Gluttoniser said:


> Personally I disagree with this. The Cabal foretold that Everything depended on Warmasters Horus victory or defeat during the siege on Terra. If he succeeded Chaos would ultimately destroy itself, if Horus failed on the other hand. Chaos would exist forever, free to corrupt new possible lifeforms in the future. Alpharius joined Chaos because he wanted to be sure that Horus saw victory. If the Alpha legion was on Horus side, Horus had one less enemy to fight and his chances of victory would have risen. Horus failed however, and Alpharius sacrifise, though noble, was in vain...


I've turned on the CotE signal, he should be here momentarily.

The Cabal claimed that if Horus lost, then Chaos would dwindle for thousands of years whereas if Horus had won, he in his guilt would wipe out all of humanity and thus starve Chaos of its worshipers. So I think either way Chaos will eventually 'lose' (the shadow of CotE looms over me as I say such heresy) only now it's going to take a long time.


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## Gluttoniser (Aug 14, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> or did it? DUN DUN DUN



No matter what argument I bring forth, the response is always gonna be this.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Gluttoniser said:


> No matter what argument I bring forth, the response is always gonna be this.


OR WILL IT?

I'm gonna let you in on a little secret:



I'm Alpharius 

...or am I? 

DUN DUN DU...


 

ok I'll stop, look...everything I've said in this thread is personal ranting 

let it be known, I have nothing against fans of Alpha Legion fluff, whatever floats your boat and keeps you in the hobby 

I just think that if people think the Ultramarines are mary sues, I don't see how the Alpha Legion aren't simply mary sues of another kind (the super-duper mastermind spy kind)


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

I like the Alpha Legion fluff for the most part; I don't love it simply because I don't look for stealth when it comes to Astartes, I just want slaughter lol


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## Gluttoniser (Aug 14, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> OR WILL IT?
> 
> I'm gonna let you in on a little secret:
> 
> ...


. 
The reason that people tend to think of the Ultramarines as mary sues, is because the Ultramarines are SO goodie-two-shoe hero rolemodels, whereas the Alpha Legion has more of a Anti-hero feel to it. And in the literairy world and in the cinematic world, a anti-hero has more depth, people can relate more to anti-heroes and therefore wont see them as mary sues as quicky.
These are my two cents!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> I can't stand the Alpha Legion's fluff, there's something about it I find inherently annoying
> 
> the Alpha Legion blah blah this...or did they?
> 
> ...


Bit of an over exaggeration? :laugh:

Personally I find the Alpha Legion one of the most interesting Legio Astartes for exactly the reasons you put forward above. 

Their next Heresy novel sounds extremley exciting, Abnett intends to involve them in a novel when we least expect it. They won't be mentioned in the title/cover-art/synopsis so we won't know when they'll pop up.



Gluttoniser said:


> I think it was rather heroic Alpharius took one for humanity when he chose to align with Horus during the Heresy, whether the Cabel lied to him or not. The thought that he would willingly sacrifise humanity in order to defeat Chaos forever is in the long term very noble. Shame it didn't work out as Alpharius planned.


That in itself is still an assumption. The reasons for Alpharius joining Horus may not be so clear cut as because the Cabal asked them to (their theories seemingly validated by the viewing of the Acuity). How I came to this conclusion:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The ending of _Legion_ only *implies* that Alpharius chose the above option one. The actual wording in the book is:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Alpha Legion opposing Horus from within isn't an example which has a lot of credence to it. But that was just an example. I am also under the impression that the Vlka Fenrkya recieving 'help from an unexpected quater' to escape the Alpha Legion ambush will have some bearing on this state of affairs.

It's also important to note that in none of the Cabal's proposed options does the Emperor survive. If Horus triumphs he is killed, and if the Imperium triumphs he gives his life for victory. Alpharius may have attempted to remedy this by attempting to protect the Emperor at all costs, and thus prevent either options from occuring. Just a thought. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> I've turned on the CotE signal, he should be here momentarily.
> 
> The Cabal claimed that if Horus lost, then Chaos would dwindle for thousands of years whereas if Horus had won, he in his guilt would wipe out all of humanity and thus starve Chaos of its worshipers. So I think either way Chaos will eventually 'lose' (the shadow of CotE looms over me as I say such heresy) only now it's going to take a long time.


Great, now i'm going to have to get a signal akin to Batman's drawn up for such occasions!... 

Right well now that i'm here, heres what the Cabal postulated:

1). If Horus triumphs in his rebellion (surplanting and destroying the Emperor in the process) then chaos will become ascendent. The human race is chaos' tool for ultimate victory. However, there remains a spark of doubt within Horus for what he has done, which manifests itself as a self-destructive loathing. He turns on his closest allies and warriors and one final apocalyptic war is fought in which even Horus' closest allies and brothers take up arms against him. Chaos burns brighter than ever, but as humanity is brought to extinction, chaos falls with it - being so heavily invested in the species.

2). The Imperium under the Emperor triumphs in the Heresy, and Horus is slain. But the Emperor effectively gives up his own life to achieve this. The Imperium devolves into a corrupt and backward regime, but will endure for another ten or perhaps twenty thousand years. Eventually chaos will seep within and the Imperium will fall. Chaos fills the power vacuum and reigns supreme, with the cosmos becoming enslaved to it's will.

Essentially the Cabal wanted to use Alpharius to ensure that option number 1) occured, rather than option number 2). It brings about the extinction of the human race, but destroys chaos in the process. Resulting in a nice and peaceful galaxy for the varied xenos species to inherit (and then to fuck up again...).

*Seemingly*, Alpharius complied with the Cabal's wishes and strove to bring about option 1). The total victory of Horus and the death of the Emperor (ultimately resulting in the extinction of humanity and the destruction of chaos).

Everything involving the Alpha Legion however has some level of deceit and secrecy interwoven within it. I'm therefore not at all convinced this should be taken at face value. What I am convined of is Alpharius having ulterior motives for joining Horus' Heresy. But of course, that may just be me.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

MontytheMighty said:


> everything is part of Alpharius' grand plan!
> the Alpha Legion is behind everything!
> they outwit everyone!
> they're so tricky, they've never been beaten!
> they're never surprised, only "apparently" surprised...


actually your only supposed to think that, one man has drummed it into you to think this is how the alpha legion is, its all an act of *tactical genius* done by 1 man who we all know and love.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> actually your only supposed to think that, one man has drummed it into you to think this is how the alpha legion is, its all an act of *tactical genius* done by 1 man who we all know and love.


CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!!!!!!!


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

I like that part of the Alpha legion. They are not as strait forward as the other legions and it is refreshing.


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## killmaimburn (Mar 19, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Their next Heresy novel sounds extremley exciting, Abnett intends to involve them in a novel when we least expect it. They won't be mentioned in the title/cover-art/synopsis so we won't know when they'll pop up.


Wow, BL hasn't done anything like that before! It's exciting and surprising when you expect a book to be about one thing, and it goes somewhere else completely. *Looks at Prospero Burns* OH wait...

Dammit Alpharius!!!!!!!!

/joke done

I really enjoy the alpha legion fluff, especially the stealth. Basically, if creed was an astartes, he would be Alpharius or an alpha legion marine. And who doesn't like the idea of creed as an astartes? 

"How did this fortress monastery get down here next to my evil lair of ultimate chaosy evil? Only a tactical genius...

ALPHARIUSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I understand sneaky and duplicity, but Master Plan? The Emperor Had one, then Tzeentch, now Alpharius (but does he have a twin?)... Not so much headspinning, but so over done in the same damn setting...

Christ, Skaven in fantasy have the same thing, but it's damn humerous when millions of skaven slaves are killed by 2 drunk dwarves and a nonce with a magic sword, only to have their "psyker" summon his power, and accidentally teleport half the old world away instead of obliterating them, yet it's part of the Great Horned Ones master plans.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Bit of an over exaggeration? :laugh:


yeah, I'm guilty of hyperbole 

my beefs are: 

everything about the Alpha Legion is an potential deception, everything is "seemingly" 

I suppose some find this very clever or entertaining, i find it annoying...I get the theme, I just don't like it, more power to those who do



Stella Cadente said:


> actually your only supposed to think that, one man has drummed it into you to think this is how the alpha legion is, its all an act of *tactical genius* done by 1 man who we all know and love.


ohhh, I get it now! what a nitwit I have been, I bow down before true genius





or do I? muahahahahahahaha


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## Harriticus (Nov 10, 2010)

Chaos can get a bit annoying as they often plot just for plottings sake. Tzeentch especially.

Alpha Legion can be fun though, they're like a more modern concept of special forces. It's good that every Chaos Legion has their own thing. Except Black Legion anyway....


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

Iron Warriors would whip their asses. see them out smart siege specialists


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I think part of the issue is how the community have picked up, and really really run, with the idea of the AL being behind everything that isn't clear-cut, and even some things that are! It seems to have become something of a meme, sort of like how we can't disprove the Perfect Celestial Teapot, we can't disprove the AL have a finger in everything.
I will agree that sometimes it can be taken too far; it does seem that it is a default position- we can't answer this, so it was Alpharius! However, the status of the Alpha Legion is quite cool. It really adds depth and gives numerous outlets for the history, and present, of 40k to explore. Cool ways to keep the story from just being a dull progression of 'A happened, then B happened, then Chappened...' are very welcome. But I would like to see some of the hyperbole that's thrown around about AlphariusOmegon's boys take a back seat. They're sneaky bastard Primarchs, not dieties!

GFP


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

If Alpharius does have an uncanny grasp of the sublties of chaos and its sees anything clearly about the HH then he would be the first and only Primarch(s) to do so, thus being very out of charactor.

I have been bitterly dissappointed with all of the fallen Primarchs so far, none have shown anything like the struggle to turn them to chaos that their status deserved or required.

None have even questioned turning to chaos or even tried not to, or even struggled with their conscience, all of them are pathetic.

Heroes always refuse to serve evil and would rather die and often do than fall, villains just seem to give in when it gets hard.

None of the fallen Primarchs have put up a fight before falling, none have tried to "not fall" none of them have made it hard for chaos to turn them.

So if Alpharius is the only one to show any intelligence and try to outsmart chaos then it would be a first for the Imperium.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

MuSigma said:


> If Alpharius does have an uncanny grasp of the sublties of chaos and its sees anything clearly about the HH then he would be the first and only Primarch(s) to do so, thus being very out of charactor.
> 
> I have been bitterly dissappointed with all of the fallen Primarchs so far, none have shown anything like the struggle to turn them to chaos that their status deserved or required.
> 
> ...


Rather poor insight on how the fallen Primarchs actually fell to Chaos.

Firstly, not all of them had to struggle with their conscience because they felt they were doing the right thing for humanity like Lorgar did. Angron didn't have a conscience and Konrad Curze felt betrayed by the emperor.

They all had different reasons for falling and most of them were far from pathetic and some didn't have to fight Chaos because they embraced it. I can't even recall a fallen primarch who was dragged kicking and screaming towards the darkside. (Maybe Fulgrim)

I prefer the Fallen Primarchs because at least they have depth and character and not 2 dimensional block-heads like Dorn and Guilliman.

And I really don't think Alpharius outsmarted Chaos because what is there to outsmart? They're Chaos. They don't need an underlying reason in why they mess shit up; they just do. So how can one (Albeit wily and intelligent) Primarch undermine the Dark Gods?


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

I for one like the Alpha Legion fluff. Well, mostly. There are however small bits which really don't sit well with me *coughgotocoughdowcough* but I, like most people I'm sure, tend to ignore this.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

5tonsledge said:


> Iron Warriors would whip their asses. see them out smart siege specialists


don't walk into a siege..........siege specialists out smarted


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Siege specialists, against a Legion of infiltrators, manipulators and intelligence gatherers. There are so, so many ways the Alpha Legions could fuck their shit up. Iron Warriors beseige a fortress, fuel and ammo dumps get destroyed, whoops, Iron Warriors manage to carry on anyway. Iron Warriors finally gain access to fortress, fortress is empty, fortress explodes, along with possibly the planet courtesy of a few cyclonics. Any Legion could beat another one given the right circumstances and possiblilites. It's never so clear cut.


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

Tyrannus said:


> Rather poor insight on how the fallen Primarchs actually fell to Chaos.
> 
> Poor insight indeed, only 2 real complaints come to light about whether or not the Primarchs should be loyal to the Emperor, the Imperium and the human race till death and they are petty at best.
> 
> ...


I hope that answers your criticisms, my main point is the heartbreaking tragedy of loosing the beloved Primarchs, even one of them - to chaos, not falling for the reasons the had.

Its a tragedy for the Imperium and the human race, to loose the brightest and best of the human race to the depredations of the Vile enemy of peace and decency.

They are a lesson to us all of how powerful the enemy is and greater effort required to defeat them.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

5tonsledge said:


> Iron Warriors would whip their asses. see them out smart siege specialists


Corax did that already, it doesn't take a genius to out smart a legion which is resolved around who can take a harder punch


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

The greatest example of my point of view of the whole problem comes in the era of the 40k universe, and takes all the issues of the 30k era as its base of intrigue, using all the issues of a corrupt Imperium on one hand and the temptations of chaos as an alternative on the other, and also in part the naievety (sp) of the those caught in this trap of circumstance.

The Soul Drinkers. 

The Soul Drinkers are forced by circumstance to fire on what seems to be loyal agents of the Imperium, who later turn out to be chaos servants within the Mechanicum, drawn by the theft of a sacred relic of Rogal Dorn into fighting fellow Imperium allies the are declared Excomicatus.

Similar to Primarchs in 30k they are driven by circunstances away from the Imperium and wash their hands of it, also like the Primarchs they are ignorant of the forces using them, and land themselves in the hands of agents of chaos who - like the Primarchs in 30k - offer the Soul Drinkers a way to get back at the hated Imperium - just like in 30k.

Their reply, even though they now hate the corrupt Imperium, and are offered great powers and a safe haven to live out their exile.

Their reply - unlike the pathetic Primarchs of 30k - is "Go to Hell" they would rather die than serve the enemy of the human race - even though the Imperium has betrayed them and want to kill them - they still say NO!!!!

Thats the real GUTS and courage of a space marine and we should expect no less from a Primarch.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

MuSigma said:


> I hope that answers your criticisms, my main point is the heartbreaking tragedy of loosing the beloved Primarchs, even one of them - to chaos, not falling for the reasons the had.
> 
> Its a tragedy for the Imperium and the human race, to loose the brightest and best of the human race to the depredations of the Vile enemy of peace and decency.
> 
> They are a lesson to us all of how powerful the enemy is and greater effort required to defeat them.


Well put out points.

And they all would've probably been loyal if it wasn't for the whole scattering of the primarchs as children by chaos. 

My point being, that even superhumans who are the pinnacle of mankind, had to be kept away from humanity to sustain their perfection. 
But obviously the Dark Gods had a hand in things and let them get exposed to humanity which then made them susceptible to corruption to Chaos.

The entire point of my argument is that the way the Primarchs fell was not pathetic. They fell because of the machinations of the ruinous powers and chaos probably used their pride against them. 

So in a roundabout sort of way, the truly pathetic one is the Emperor himself for not forseeing this or (Like you stated) putting important matters in the hands of some old fool and just generally not sorting his shit out.

It's what he gets for (allegedly) making deals with the ruinous powers.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

MuSigma said:


> Their reply, even though they now hate the corrupt Imperium, and are offered great powers and a safe haven to live out their exile.
> 
> Their reply - unlike the pathetic Primarchs of 30k - is "Go to Hell" they would rather die than serve the enemy of the human race - even though the Imperium has betrayed them and want to kill them - they still say NO!!!!
> 
> Thats the real GUTS and courage of a space marine and we should expect no less from a Primarch.


Or maybe they are just simple-minded idiots. The Primarchs were obviously a lot smarter than the average Marine so maybe they analysed their situations a bit better than some lapdogs with Dorn's geneseed. 
Or maybe it's because they know more about Chaos after ten thousand years of knowing about it's existence.

That is one way to look at Chaos; the enemy of mankind. Another way is that it is Humanities only hope in being in an increasingly perilous position in the galaxy.

It's called perspective.

What you think is a pathetic excuse for treachery, I think is the Primarchs finally seeing the truth.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

The soul drinkers kick ass i so wishi would have read that series before i made my salamander army...

The Alpha Legion IMO was cool in the past and got even cooler when they got more fleshed out fluff in the HH books


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

Tyrannus said:


> Or maybe they are just simple-minded idiots. The Primarchs were obviously a lot smarter than the average Marine so maybe they analysed their situations a bit better than some lapdogs with Dorn's geneseed.
> 
> HMM The fallen Primarchs smarter - not sure about that. Lets see;
> 
> ...


I certainly hope not.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Pardon me if I nitpick, but:

It was Kor Phaeron, not Erebus, who persuaded Lorgar into embracing Chaos.

Mortarion joined Horus of his own free will, having been promised an age where the strong would rule the weak. He and pretty much the rest of the Death Guard got caught up in a warp storm and committed himself and his legion to Nurgle to escape death at the hands of Nurgle's Rot.

Angron was pretty self-explanatory. The Emprah sent Horus to get Angron under control, but instead he persuaded him into siding with him, denouncing the Emprah as weak and devoid of honor and generally telling him exactly what he wanted to hear. He and the rest of the World Eaters naturally came to Khorne.

Perturabo came to serve Chaos after he led the Iron Warriors in the purgation of his homeworld of Olympia which had rebelled in his absence. To him, the massacre and enslavement of Olympia's citizens by his own hand and that of his legion was something they could never atone for, and this combined with seething jealousy against Rogal Dorn saw him side with Horus. Nowadays, he and his legion are Undivided and are known to work closely with the Dark Mechanicum and traitor Titan Legions.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

Way to not prove your point by oversimplifying some of the primarchs and just getting some of the others wrong.

SPOILERS!(There might be numerous SPOILERS for the Horus Heresy series in the following post. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.)SPOILERS!


Firstly, The Emperor rejecting Lorgar was not the main reason he betrayed. It was a motive to prove a theory, which he then believed was found correct and felt his course of actions were for the betterment of mankind.

I am still reading Fulgrim so I still don't have a full grasp of Fulgrim getting possessed and whatnot, but I am gonna use the info I have read on Heresy Online and say he and his legion fell on their path to perfection. They followed the path to perfection because they wanted to be the best and they wanted to be the best to help mankind. 

Hopefully, somebody with more knowledge of the Emperor's Children can fully explain which I could not, but I still don't believe "Possessed by Daemon - later regretted it" is a sufficient answer.

Magnus did what he did for the Imperium and The Emperor. Granted, the Space Wolves were tricked into wiping out the Thousand Sons but it still doesn't detract that he still thought he was doing the right thing and only helping, then his legion gets nearly annihilated by the Wolves and he nearly get's killed. He get's given a choice by the ruinous powers: Destruction or unlimited power and you think the smarter choice was destruction?

Konrad Curze was never proved to still be loyal. He may have hated Chaos, but his percieved "suicide" was nothing to do with Chaos. Here is his quote before he got assassinated: _

"Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication."_

So he clearly still feels betrayed by the Emperor and in other quotes he believes all he did was necessary for the Imperium.

Protoss119 basically states the same opinions I have on those Primarchs BUT I will admit there are still no certainties on them because their characters haven't been explored thoroughly enough yet.

In short, most of them fell doing what they thought was for the greater good of Humanity.

Does that sound pathetic to you?

Oh and once again it's all about perspective with Chaos. There are two sides to every story and Chaos is definitely no exception.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Tyrannus said:


> He get's given a choice by the ruinous powers: Destruction or unlimited power and you think the smarter choice was destruction?


Sanguinius is given that exact same choice, yet he stayed loyal to the end and died a heroic death. Magnus ultimately wasn't strong enough to die for his cause.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Sanguinius is given that exact same choice, yet he stayed loyal to the end and died a heroic death. Magnus ultimately wasn't strong enough to die for his cause.


It is still a very different situation though. Magnus had come to realise everything he had strove for had been in vain, his arrogance was misplaced. By attempting to save the Imperium he instead shattered the Emperor's plans for the future.

But ultimately the one thing he had left; his Thousand Sons (the thing he bargained for with chaos initially to save) was the only thing he now had left. So to save the remnants of his Legion, the City of Light, and to obtain limitless knowledge he gave himself to the entity that had always been subtly influencing his life, from the very beginning.

Sanguinius on the other hand simply refused the offer of Ka'Banda to become 'Khorne's greatest champion' (or something to that effect) in order to slay Kyriss the Perverse. He rejected chaos in the form of the daemon (something any Primarch would have done), Magnus ultimately accepted chaos after realisation that he had been wrong, shattered the Emperor's hopes for the future, to obtain unlimited knowledge, but most of all to save his Thousand Sons.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Well if you read soul hunter you get a much better understanding of the night lords and discover they really aren't that cruel and evil. This book actually makes the blood angels out to be murderous @$$hOl3s esspecially when (SPOILER ALERT) they kill the young child on the night lord's ship. If anything it shows that the night lords have some compassion by (even though they were slaves) giveing these people a home and actually treating them humainly. If you also note that they even question why some would mutilate themselves in service to the big E. they only work with CSM because the need for survival. 
Most of the marines in the legions all have a personality that is somewhat the same as their primarch so i would assume that curze is kinda like batman in a way just a bit more extreme and a lil less forgiving. He cares about justice and doin what is right and obeying the law.(judge dread anyone) He only destroyed his home planet because it reverted to its original state before he became the great night haunter. He also knew that regardless of what his actions were he could not change his future no matter how aware of it he is. 

Sorry night lords is actually one my most fav. legions.

At least this is what i know about the night lords. 
Fulgrim didn't get possesed til the bitter end when he realized that A. he killed his brother and best friend. B. realized that his quest for perfection twisted his legion into something uspeakably horrible and in no way or form was perfect. To put it simpler Fulgrim was being taunted by the daemon weapon he found and in which case slowly warped his mind and blinded him to what he was really doing and at the same time makeing his legion into the same twisted perversion it is today. I honestly think that they were at least the 2nd legion to fall to chaos.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

TheSpore said:


> Well if you read soul hunter you get a much better understanding of the night lords and discover they really aren't that cruel and evil.


Are you serious? The VIII Legion is literally the most _cruel_ and (arguably) the most _evil_ Legion around. They thrive off seeding terror throughout the galaxy, they commit unspeakable acts that we can barely comprehend in order to do so. Just because a single VIII Legion Astartes has a decent-enough (in the sense of not beating him regularly or killing him on a whim) relationship with his slave doesn't mean the Night Lords warbands aren't _that_ cruel and evil.



TheSpore said:


> This book actually makes the blood angels out to be murderous @$ esspecially when (SPOILER ALERT) they kill the young child on the night lord's ship.


Yet if we saw that tale from the Blood Angels perspective I can guarentee you wouldn't say that. That _'young child'_ was a slave to a chaos warband, she was warp-tainted and a traitor to the Emperor. Why on earth would the Blood Angels show mercy?



TheSpore said:


> If anything it shows that the night lords have some compassion by (even though they were slaves) giveing these people a home and actually treating them humainly.


Everyone needs slaves to run their fleet. Giving them a home? Enslaving them and then forcing them to work/live in an overcrowded, constantly dark, vile bowels of a tattered warship? Treating them humanely? I can't remember any examples from _Soul Hunter_ which support this. 



TheSpore said:


> Sorry night lords is actually one my most fav. legions.


That's cool. But that doesn't mean you have to portray them in a positive (in the sense of being humane) light. They are evil, crazed murderers. You can't avoid those facts. They (well some, certainly not all) may see what their doing as carrying out justice on the Emperor's Imperium, but they are no better than the criminals Curze destroyed Nostramo for. And they all ultimately deserve death according to Curze's code.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

if u recall the main cahraricter is not the only one and im sorry regardless if the child was exposed to chaos killing a child is still IMO the most evil act you can commit. It was not this child's fault by any means to be born on in that enviroment. I didnt say they were not cruel and evil i said that they wern't all that cruel and evil you need to look at it form there POV and not the perspective of the imperium.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

But the vast, vast majority of them are that cruel and evil, that cannot be said for the majority of the Blood Angels.

@CotE: I was more refering to Sanguinius being given the chance to side with Horus and become one of his most powerful generals, "at the right hand of a god". I realise and accept its a different situation, but at the end of the day Sanguinius will still get my backing every time. But hey, i'm always a sucker for the loyalists


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

well angel i think what i forgot to say and i just realized the main chararicter is more what i would see in them in pre heresy times


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

But pre-heresy they were still cruel and down right terrifying, all it would take to for a rebelling world to know the VIII Legion was on its way to surrender or flee rather than face the horrors and atrocities the Night Lords would subject them to


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## Creidim (Jan 6, 2011)

yet the weapon of fear does not have to be physical, whole regions of space surrendering peacefully due to fear of retricbution makes them worse than the BA and SW legions that kill every living human that opposes imperial law? these are the good guys which have killed more humans then the Night Lords, logically (about a fictional universe  ) you could say that the loyalists legions were less loyal to humanity than many of the traitors that were just loyal to their daddy and the priveleged positions they possessed in his empire. now back to the Alpha Legion


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

well ill put this whole night lord debate to rest after this post then its back to alpha legion. I did a lil research into the night lords last night and i must admit i am a bit wrong they did use fear as a weapon and were very cruel and evil. But this was mainly because the newer recruits Pre heresy adn post heresy were coming from large crops of criminals and not good people i guess you could say. So the legion was becoming corrupt before they even went rogue just because of the guys that were being recruited from there homeworld.

So i apologise for being wrong


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

Lets back on track.
The op and all fluff gives the Indication the Alpha Legion have a very intelligent view on the HH and have something up their sleeve. I hope so.

I did upset some by saying that the Primarchs in general were pathetic in falling to chaos, in my opinion - the worse thing there could be is to be a servant of the dark powers. They are the best amongst us and none seemed to have any regret or second thoughts or make a valiant effort not to fall to chaos.

I wish one of them just for varieties sake - said NO WAY. Even if the Emperor is a total arsehole and the Imperium is totally corrupt - I would still be loyal to mankind. Being a servant of chaos does not help mankind evolve into a better race.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

A better race depends on your perspective and definition of 'better'. Chaos would give mankind dominance of the galaxy, though ultimately it would still be the gods and deamons in charge. Morally better? no.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MuSigma said:


> Being a servant of chaos does not help mankind evolve into a better race.


According to whom?

As _Angel_ said, define _'better'_.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> According to whom?
> 
> As _Angel_ said, define _'better'_.


It evolves them to more of a bad ass race.


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## Engindeer (Dec 1, 2010)

I can see where the OP comes from.

The whole 'whodunit?' and secrecy part of The Alpha Legion is tiresome, agreed, but it's needed to strengthen Alpharius' credibility regarding his tactical prowess.

I actually felt sorry for him in the Index Astartes article, after Guillimans reprimanded him, and said he 'Wasted the Emperor's holy bolt shells'.

Nobody cared to tell off Fulgrim, when he made an insane gamble to defeat the Laeran with all odds against him.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

MuSigma said:


> I wish one of them just for varieties sake - said NO WAY.


If they had said "No Way" but still turned that would have made them indecisive flip-floppers which is WAY lame. As it is each and every 'traitor' Primarch thought "This is what I want to do, this is how I'm going to do it." It was a conscious decision and one they had no reason to regret or doubt. 



> Even if the Emperor is a total arsehole and the Imperium is totally corrupt - I would still be loyal to mankind.


Many of them believe that they were loyal to humanity. They chose to save mankind from the corruption of the Imperium and the ignorance and arrogance of the Emperor. Many of the 'traitors' made far greater sacrifices on humanities behalf than the loyalists. Curze for example.

OT
As far as the Alpha Legion goes, I like their fluff, I just think it gets over done a bit.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Of all the Chaos Legions, the Alpha Legion is my favorite. They are everywhere and yet no where. Their plans so entirely cryptic and their whole 'spy' theme is rather awesome sauce.

If any of the Traitor Legions truly has the power to cripple the Imperium in 40k -- I would like to believe it is the Alpha Legion. Hell, I think if they wanted to commit to a suicide mission that they could actually penetrate to the Golden Throne and kill the Emperor.

To be honest, thats why I'm beginning to believe Alpharius changed his goals after the Horus Heresy. Perhaps now its more along the desperate lines of 'keeping the balance' trying to extend Humanity for as long as they can, hoping the Emperor had a back-up plan.

Think of the lore-specifics behind that. Hell, lets say Alpharius did die, imagine Omegon, his other half dead, trying desperately to keep the balance between Chaos and the Imperium. Believing that neither side should ultimately win. Should Humanity attempt to exterminate Chaos they would inevitably be consumed by it -- but should Chaos win now, the gods would reign supreme. That would give so much more lore juice to the Alpha Legion and cast them in the role of that last, desperate shard of Humanity's forgotten past trying, without hope of success, to somehow sustain Humanity until the Emperor can figure something out.

At least, thats what I hope is going on.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Sanguinius on the other hand simply refused the offer of Ka'Banda to become 'Khorne's greatest champion' (or something to that effect) in order to slay Kyriss the Perverse. He rejected chaos in the form of the daemon (something any Primarch would have done)


I'm not sure, but I think the Sanguinius event referred to was the one when Horus offered to let him change sides aboard Horus' battle barge. Sanguinius knowing he'd be killed if he refused (due to foresight which is referred to in Blood Angels fluff but I can't remember where), still had the cojones to refuse. He willingly died to prove a point.

The point you mention is still valid but since Ka'Banda didn't kill him when he refused (something Sanguinius could also theoretically have foreseen with his foresight but it's unknown whether he did), this doesn't theoretically carry the same weight as the incident with Horus.

Just a minor nit pick about "(something any Primarch would have done)" it's my opinion that by this stage Lorgar would have accepted Chaos' offer from the daemon as per the events of The First Heretic. By the time of the events on Signus Prime, Lorgar appeared to have fully embraced Chaos and it's in my opinion probable he'd have accepted the offer.


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## imperialfist13 (Feb 2, 2011)

*alpharius*



Malus Darkblade said:


> Ugh please don't go there. The Hunt for Voldorious did a disservice for the Alpha Legion and made them sound like your regular chaos worshipper, completyl disregarding the lore behind the Alpha Legion.
> 
> And again, I believe the AL and the Night Lords are the two chaos-aligned legions that are the most resistant to the whisperings of Chaos as they both despise of it and simply consider Chaos as tools to add to their arsenal of tearing down the Imperium. I'm not saying members of both chapters have not truly become servants of Chaos but I'm just stating that they are the most resistant of the bunch.


 



Strange you dont like the book for mishandling the Alphas fluff and Lore yet ignore the fact that the Lore and fluff states that Guilliman killed Alpharius in single combat. When the lore and fluff goes the way of making a sneaky deceitful legion sound almost cool you love it yet when the opposite you starts denying the facts.

It would be the biggest travesty if BL or GW ret-conned the fact that he killed Alpharius, un-arguably one of the greatest Primarchs, who would of known if it was Alpharius/Omegon that he killed and not Sheed Ranko who is semi plausible outside of a fight with a Primarch. He would, if Grammaticus and Chayne could spot differences as mere mortals then he would of instantly. That is the reason why they are still unbudged by the Ultramarines in that they have a Second Primarch still calling the shots. Who is unknown to Guilliman maybe.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

imperialfist13 said:


> Strange you dont like the book for mishandling the Alphas fluff and Lore yet ignore the fact that the Lore and fluff states that Guilliman killed Alpharius in single combat. When the lore and fluff goes the way of making a sneaky deceitful legion sound almost cool you love it yet when the opposite you starts denying the facts.
> 
> It would be the biggest travesty if BL or GW ret-conned the fact that he killed Alpharius, un-arguably one of the greatest Primarchs, who would of known if it was Alpharius/Omegon that he killed and not Sheed Ranko who is semi plausible outside of a fight with a Primarch. He would, if Grammaticus and Chayne could spot differences as mere mortals then he would of instantly. That is the reason why they are still unbudged by the Ultramarines in that they have a Second Primarch still calling the shots. Who is unknown to Guilliman maybe.


It wouldn't be a ret-con if we found out if Guilliman didn't kill Alpharius, hell we don't even know for sure that Guilliman fought Alpharius let alone killed him- the source is hardly trustworthy (an Inquisitor who provides no proof and later turns out to be an Agent for the Alpha Legion).


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## HorusReborn (Nov 19, 2008)

I'm gonna be straight up, Legion was my least favourite book and it made no sense to me what so ever... no I'm not a stupid individual. Alpha Legion is pretty cool in thought, but we need to get some better fluff about them for sure!


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

HorusReborn said:


> I'm gonna be straight up, Legion was my least favourite book and it made no sense to me what so ever... no I'm not a stupid individual. Alpha Legion is pretty cool in thought, but we need to get some better fluff about them for sure!


Secrets and lies, the heart and soul of the Alpha Legion. GW will never reveal more than mere snippets of truth amid a sea of lies, half-truths and contradictions, simply because that is who they are.

Personally, I loved Legion. Not only was it the first real glimpse at that AL since the Index Astartes, but it provided an excellent look into the pre-heresy AL. But I especially loved the ending. Before Legion, it was always said that Alpharius joined Horus because he was closer to him than the Emperor because he only met him once briefly. A truly pathetic reason for the most enigmatic Legion of them. But now there's far more mystery and questions into to their motives behind their actions.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

HorusReborn said:


> I'm gonna be straight up, Legion was my least favourite book and it made no sense to me what so ever... no I'm not a stupid individual. Alpha Legion is pretty cool in thought, but we need to get some better fluff about them for sure!


What didn't make sense out of interest?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

imperialfist13 said:


> Strange you dont like the book for mishandling the Alphas fluff and Lore yet ignore the fact that the Lore and fluff states that Guilliman killed Alpharius in single combat. When the lore and fluff goes the way of making a sneaky deceitful legion sound almost cool you love it yet when the opposite you starts denying the facts.
> 
> It would be the biggest travesty if BL or GW ret-conned the fact that he killed Alpharius, un-arguably one of the greatest Primarchs, who would of known if it was Alpharius/Omegon that he killed and not Sheed Ranko who is semi plausible outside of a fight with a Primarch. He would, if Grammaticus and Chayne could spot differences as mere mortals then he would of instantly. That is the reason why they are still unbudged by the Ultramarines in that they have a Second Primarch still calling the shots. Who is unknown to Guilliman maybe.


The lore doesn't state that the War on Eskrador even happened, let alone all of the apparent occurences during said war (like Guilliman killing Alpharius). 

The report was apparently uncovered by an Inquisitor Kravin, the Imperium's leading scholar on the Alpha Legion (most of the Imperium's current knowledge on the Last Legion comes from Kravin, so subsequently might all be false/twisted/tampered with Et cetera). Even the Ultramarines themselves don't maintain any records of the conflict, only Guilliman could ratify the theory but being essentially dead he isn't in a position to do so. 

If you weren't aware, Inquisitor Kravin has now disappeared with most speculating that he was an operative of the Alpha Legion all along, employed to plant misinformation in Imperial records.



Angel of Blood said:


> What didn't make sense out of interest?


I second that question.


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## Brothersin (Jan 24, 2013)

Baron Spikey said:


> It wouldn't be a ret-con if we found out if Guilliman didn't kill Alpharius, hell we don't even know for sure that Guilliman fought Alpharius let alone killed him- the source is hardly trustworthy (an Inquisitor who provides no proof and later turns out to be an Agent for the Alpha Legion).


Don't know if it's too early to talk about "The Primarchs", but the AL story "The Serpent Beneath" adds extra fuel to the fire that it wasn't Alpharius that Guilliman fought. 

Serpent Beneath Spoiler:


If Ranko could fool fellow Alpha Legionnaires, what hope does Guilliman have?


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## Valrak (Jul 23, 2011)

What if this thread was made to throw us off the true mission of the Alpha Legion...


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## Oldenangry (Oct 31, 2012)

Whatever the reasoning behind their betrayals and whatnot... I don't care for the Alpha Legion or the fluff.

But, then, I tend to gravitate towards the loyalists.

Just my opinion.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Oldenangry said:


> Whatever the reasoning behind their betrayals and whatnot... I don't care for the Alpha Legion or the fluff.
> 
> But, then, I tend to gravitate towards the loyalists.
> 
> Just my opinion.


But the AL are loyalists according to Legion :grin:


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I'm getting the vibe that a lot of the posters opposed to Alpha Legion fluff simply don't like the implication that the XX Legion is somehow "better" than the others.

My personal take is that the XX Legion isn't "better", per se, but that they've taken it upon themselves to think outside the realm that has been assigned to then. Even the most brilliant of the "conventional" Legions think in terms of conventional war - pure and simple. The Raven Guard take it a level further in the sense that they focus on the role stealth and surprise play in war... but their operations still amount to _conventional warfare._

So, at the end of the day, I don't think the Alpha Legion are *better*. That is, I don't think they are better at shooting, or better at melee combat, or even necessarily smarter. I simply think they decided some time ago that they're not going to pigeon-hole themselves to conventional wisdom where a mode of warfare, tactics, objectives, or even the definition of "victory" and "defeat" are concerned.

This rankles other Primarchs and Legions because the Alpha Legion don't bother with their concepts of war and honor, which they've defined themselves. It doesn't surprise me that this reaction would extent to the fans of said Legions. 

Cheers!


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## Brothersin (Jan 24, 2013)

Phoebus said:


> I simply think they decided some time ago that they're not going to pigeon-hole themselves to conventional wisdom where a mode of warfare, tactics, objectives, or even the definition of "victory" and "defeat" are concerned.


I think you've nailed it. The other Legions very much do things in alignment with a theme and have a hard time thinking outside of that box. When another Legion chooses to do something in a different way, they're cowards, dishonorable, or failing the Emperor and the Great Crusade. 

I don't know who said it above, but more than any other Legion (except maybe the Ravens), members of the AL operate very much like Navy SEALs or other SpecOp types. No matter what it takes, mission completion is paramount. While "For the Emperor!" is their official battlecry, "Git 'er Done!" sums them up the best I think.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

The one thing the Alpha Legion couldn't keep hidden away from everyone who took them seriously.

Midnight


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Thanks for the kind words, Brothersin.


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## DarthMarko (Aug 20, 2012)

I'll join the wagon and say that Alpha is annoying as hell.....kudos to Op


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## Chosen of Malal (Nov 5, 2012)

I'm on this bandwagon too, can't stand them.


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

I've taken to calling them the Awful Legion. Which is harsh, considering that back in 2nd-3rd Edition I had an Alpha Legion army.

At some point, the Black Library ruined the Alpha Legion, turning them into Mission Impossible Marines who spend most of their time not being Space Marines at all. The only reason they were not censured for being inefficient and wasting time like the Word Bearers was because an Alpha Legionnaire infiltrated the Imperium's command and control network and kept sending out fake battle reports of campaigns that never happened. 

Space Marine Legions need to be Space Marines _first_, and their little narrative hook second. And the Alpha Legion aren't portrayed as Space Marines anymore. Space Wolves are Space Marine Vikings. Not Vikings who sometimes Space Marine. 40K _already has_ spies and assassins and such in it. Space Marines would be out Space Marineing. And, as we saw with Monarchia, the Emperor doesn't take kindly to Space Marines not being Space Mariney. A Space Marine is a seven-seven and a half foot tall, seven hundred pound (naked), biologically modified, genetically engineered walking murder machine designed to conquer planets. Not a super spy.

Seriously though, they've turned into a vehicle for the various Black Library authors to come up with an even more ridiculous plot for the Alpha Legion to be entangled with. _Legion_ was pretty nonsensical and set the tone, so Thorpe did his best to trump that with _Deliverance Lost_. I feel like it's a game at the Black Library, to see who can one up the other writers and creates the silliest Alpha Legion story and sell it to the fans. 

By the time the story ends, Alpharius will have betrayed the Imperium because he was tricked into doing it by Omegon who had infiltrated the Alpha Legion, lost in his double agent cover as a Word Bearer, and thought he was a Dark Apostle.


The Black Library took this narrative hook of sneaky, outside-the-box Marines and turned them into a Legion of James Bonds. It's stupid. There's really no nice way to put it. What they have gotten confused about is that the Alpha Legion turned to guerrilla warfare *because they had to*. They became the sneaky dickbag Green Berets of _*40K*_ because they had started a 10,000 year long war against a vastly superior enemy in the Imperium. They became specialists in deception, hit and run, and fomenting rebellions and Chaos cults _*because they had toor else they'd be hunted down and destroyed*_ and Alpharius had infused his legion with the philosophy of adapting and overcoming. There's no place for a Space Marine Legion to fight or think that way. It's anathema to the entire idea of the Great Crusade and a Space Marine Legion. And that's why, in the original (also known as the *good*) fluff, the Alpha Legion were inclined to try out innovative battlefield tactics, but still _battlefield_ being the operative word. 

The original fluff had the Alpha Legion turning to Chaos because Alpharius had always been closer to Horus than the Emperor, and he enjoyed the idea of testing his Legion in battle against other Space Marines. Not because he had some ridiculously over-complication secret master plan that makes no sense. The original Alpha Legion was fanatically disciplined and tenacious fighters. They weren't sneaky Ethan Hunts pulling off their masks Scooby Doo style while someone said "Let's see just who you _really are_."


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

Malus Darkblade said:


> They're the opposite of the rigid and disciplined Ultramarines whose tactics cannot withstand their ever-changing plans.


This is actually a ridiculously awful misrepresentation of the Ultramarines. Guilliman was a master of warfare before Graham McNeill got ahold of him. He criticized Alpharius's plans for being a waste of time and resources, for being inefficient. *Not* because the plans were too fluid and changing, nor because the Ultramarines fought in a "rigid and disciplined" manner that made them unable to comprehend the tactics Alpharius was using. Guilliman was superior as a general in every way to Alpharius, including in that manner. He just knew what the purpose of the Legions and the Great Crusade was.


Heck, read the 2nd Edition background fluff of the Alpha Legion that immediately preceded the IA article. The Alpha Legion were well known for being... wait for it... incredibly disciplined. :laugh:


That's really the problem. Most Alpha Legion fanboys don't even know the historical fluff of their own favorite chapter, and it causes them to misinterpret what was in the Index Astartes article versus how they are portrayed in the Black Library fluff.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I only like them in small amounts, I don't like the over the top stuff.


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## AgentOrange24 (Mar 25, 2010)

I agree.

Every bit of it is "Hydra Dominatus! We are Alpharius! Our Plan! Hiss Hiss Snake Stuff!"

It just gets stupid after awhile.

Pretty much everything Veteran said, I've thought at some point. Especially the idea of the authors just setting around thinking who can come up with the most batshit insane idea they can get past an editor.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

I like the Alpha Legion a great deal; they're the core of my CSM army. Their modus operandi strikes me as one of the most realistic of the Legions (along with the Raven Guard--shame about the fact that _Deliverance Lost_, the book containing both, was such a non-starter for me): a reasoned, well thought-out guerilla insurgency plan with layered cells, infiltration, deception, etc, that doesn't rely on Marines so much as it does a multitude of operatives--with Marines being the coordinating minds and the occasional shock-and-awe muscle.

Sure, they have a "little man" syndrome about proving their better than the Ultramarines, but whatever. I think the Ultramarines have been portrayed poorly in BL literature moreso than the Alpha Legion, all things considered: only with the advent of Know No Fear have they begun to approximate my mental imagery of the clipped, disciplined, precise force that is incredibly tactically flexible _precisely because_ it rigidly adheres to Guilliman's writings. I can imagine Ultramarines and some of their successors memorizing and absorbing entire swathes of the massive Codex, some devoting their lives to establishing a rigid hierarchy against the nuances, contradictions, and various interplays of different directives in the book--much like goes on in the Rules forum here on H-O! :laugh:

I have quite liked several of the BL Alpha Legion stories. _The Hunt for Voldemort_ was laughable in that they were mere moustache-twirling baddies, _Deliverance Lost_ was lackluster--but "The Long Game at Carcharias," "We Are One," and "Hunted" (By Rob Sanders, John French, and French again, respectively) were stellar stories that depicted the Alpha Legion at its best.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

I totally agree with Monty, the alpha legion are near instoppable, especially how they have been portrayed in deliverance lost and also the raven guard in comparison was rather lame in my opinion.


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## Chosen of Malal (Nov 5, 2012)

I feel the Night Lords are much closer to what marines should have been, not so much the terror tactics, but the "get in and do the damn thing" sense. I don't understand how the Emperor's "angels of death" would be depicted as a bunch of slow-jacks that would take forever to exact his wrath. How "angel of death" is taking years to kill the leader of a defense force?


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

that does not sound like the NL to me, more the IF, to me the NL are more:
are there small children to skin ?ok
is there no opposition ? no 
let's go, else let's go, they are murderers, killers and jack the rippers in a power armour, they only get the job done if it is slitting a throat,
but hey I can be wrong


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## Chosen of Malal (Nov 5, 2012)

IF? Imperial Fists? ...they specialize in defending fortified positions, not lightning attacks. You're making it out like Night Lords only attack from the shadows, their specialty is lightning assaults from out of nowhere, thus "get in and do the damn thing".


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

AgentOrange24 said:


> I agree.
> 
> Every bit of it is "Hydra Dominatus! We are Alpharius! Our Plan! Hiss Hiss Snake Stuff!"
> 
> It just gets stupid after awhile.


LOL couldn't agree more...it's getting OTT. BL needs to reel it in a bit. _The Long Games at Carcharias_ was a great example of this. An entire loyalist chapter wiped out by a single Alpha Legionnaire. If they're that effective, why did the Emperor make 20 different legions...might as well make 20 Alpha Legions. 



DarthMarko said:


> I'll join the wagon and say that Alpha is annoying as hell.....kudos to Op


Thank you thank you *bow*



Chosen of Malal said:


> I'm on this bandwagon too, can't stand them.


Welcome



piemelke said:


> I totally agree with Monty, the alpha legion are near instoppable, especially how they have been portrayed in deliverance lost and also the raven guard in comparison was rather lame in my opinion.


Yes I don't like how the AL is portrayed as being able to run circles around other legions without taking any damage

Unfortunately, other legions do look like dimwits compared to the ingenious AL


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

MontytheMighty said:


> _The Long Games at Carcharias_ was a great example of this. An entire loyalist chapter wiped out by a single Alpha Legionnaire.


I always find it rather sad when people claim this to be an example of them being over the top, or BL giving them so much favour. If anything, _The Long Games at Carcharias_ is a great example of how people will ignore and twist stuff to best suit their whining.

What do I mean? Well lets think about it for a moment.

Yes it was a single Alpha Legionnaire, with the backing of the Black Legion, and centuries of manipulation and planning. Its not like that one legionnaire infiltrated the planet on his own and took down the entire chapter alone and in one single fell swoop. He orchestrated dozens of events to slowly weaken a chapter, and at the same time played to a great weakness of that chapter in order to brainwash potential future initiates.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

darkreever said:


> I always find it rather sad when people claim this to be an example of them being over the top, or BL giving them so much favour. If anything, _The Long Games at Carcharias_ is a great example of how people will ignore and twist stuff to best suit their whining.


Still far-fetched IMO...one Alpha Legionnaire "orchestrating" the destruction of an entire loyalist chapter. It's downright humiliating for an entire chapter to get outwitted by a single dude. 

I'll continue to whine about the AL's humiliation of loyalist forces. Feel free to continue whining about my whining


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Alphy dead, Guilliman got him. Omy is running the show now.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

CJay said:


> Alphy dead, Guilliman got him. Omy is running the show now.


Has never been confirmed. In Legion, and also a short story in The Primarchs, we see how easy it is for them to switch places with their own legionnaires. For all we know, Guilliman killed some normal Alpha Legionnaire thinking it was Alpharius. Or perhaps Omegon took Alpharius' place and got killed instead. We'll never know until GW decides to expand on it.

I personally like the Alpha Legion fluff. It's awesome, all of the sneaking and subterfuge that they are able to pull off. It may seem far fetched to people, but we must remember one thing. Its the universe of Warhammer. Stuff like that happens all the time.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

DeathJester921 said:


> Has never been confirmed. In Legion, and also a short story in The Primarchs, we see how easy it is for them to switch places with their own legionnaires. For all we know, Guilliman killed some normal Alpha Legionnaire thinking it was Alpharius. Or perhaps Omegon took Alpharius' place and got killed instead. We'll never know until GW decides to expand on it.


Or the entire battle never happened. The Ultramarines have no record of it, indeed the only account is from an Inquisitor who was then proved to be a Alpha Legion agent. It's veracity is suspect at best.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Rems said:


> Or the entire battle never happened. The Ultramarines have no record of it, indeed the only account is from an Inquisitor who was then proved to be a Alpha Legion agent. It's veracity is suspect at best.


That is also a possibility. There are many possibilities conerning this one event. Who knows which one is true and which ones are not? I mean, perhaps the battle happened, and all records were lost? Guilliman ordered the matter kept silent? Again, who knows? That is another reason to like Alpha Legion fluff. It gets you thinking.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Indeed. There's no way to tell if Alpharius or Omegon fell in that battle or even if it happened. Like with all AL fluff its obscured in secrets and lies. Hell I know a guy whose an AL fan who suggested the idea of _Legion_ being a story concocted by the AL with half-truths and lies to further shroud their past and motives, even suggesting that Omegon doesn't actually exist.

And I got to say that a lot of this hate towards the AL is a little over the top. I would express my own thoughts on the AL but someone has already done that in this thread so I'm just going to quote him.



Phoebus said:


> I'm getting the vibe that a lot of the posters opposed to Alpha Legion fluff simply don't like the implication that the XX Legion is somehow "better" than the others.
> 
> My personal take is that the XX Legion isn't "better", per se, but that they've taken it upon themselves to think outside the realm that has been assigned to then. Even the most brilliant of the "conventional" Legions think in terms of conventional war - pure and simple. The Raven Guard take it a level further in the sense that they focus on the role stealth and surprise play in war... but their operations still amount to _conventional warfare._
> 
> ...


There's a lot of truth in what he's said. That battle where Alpharius may or may not have been slain ended with the UM defeated and retreating despite having killed 'Alpharius' which they had believed would have won them the battle. Against another Primarch and their Legion that would probably be a sound belief. Launching a small rapid assault on the enemy HQ and eliminating their commander and likely much of their command staff would have been a heavy blow to most armies yet the AL wasn't all that phased by it.

Unless of course that wasn't Alpharius or a lookalike commander or even their true HQ which brings us to the most important part of the AL, secrets and lies. With the AL everything is suspect and that isn't a new thing.

People have brought up _The Long Game of Carcharias_ as a source of criticism of the AL yet they ignore the fact that there is another, near identical incident involving the original Emperor's Swords SM Chapter from one of the earlier CSM Codices. Also I have to ask as I haven't read it but whose perspective is the story presented from, the Alpha Legionnaire or the SM? If it's only from the latter than how do we know he was the only Legionnaire involved? What if he was part of a team of veterans and just so happened to be the one to reveal himself, making it seem like that only one man did all this. And what about non-Astartes agents. Even if it was just the one AL he would have had normal humans aiding as they've done many times before. Plus a lot of the criticism seems to imply that the Legionnaire was a grunt CSM when we simply don't know who the Legionnaire was. He could be an officer with decades of experience and training or even a veteran from the HH. Finally like I mentioned about my friend and his ideas on _Legion_ for all we know the story could be another example of half-truths and lies spun into an alternate story of the Crimson Consuls' destruction.

Secrets and lies...

Always secrets and lies...


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

At this point, I would be more surprised if it actually was Alpharius who Guilliman killed--if GW or BL pulls the rug out from under us by making the suspiciously reported event something that actually happened.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Mossy Toes said:


> At this point, I would be more surprised if it actually was Alpharius who Guilliman killed--if GW or BL pulls the rug out from under us by making the suspiciously reported event something that actually happened.


While still leaving things in the conjecture column, don't you think the inherint psyker skills possessed by all the primarchs would allow Guillaumin to discern between one of his brothers and a transformed Astares regardless of their skill? Or would his mojo be left wanting?

Whatever folks think about their methods or motives, the Alpha Legion gets results more effectively than any of the other turned Legions. Hell, I don't know of any Traitor Legions who still operate primarily in normal Imperial space like the AL, and don't just come out for the occasional Black Crusade or Space Hulk.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> People have brought up _The Long Game of Carcharias_ as a source of criticism of the AL yet they ignore the fact that there is another, near identical incident involving the original Emperor's Swords SM Chapter from one of the earlier CSM Codices. Also I have to ask as I haven't read it but whose perspective is the story presented from, the Alpha Legionnaire or the SM? If it's only from the latter than how do we know he was the only Legionnaire involved? What if he was part of a team of veterans and just so happened to be the one to reveal himself, making it seem like that only one man did all this. And what about non-Astartes agents. Even if it was just the one AL he would have had normal humans aiding as they've done many times before. Plus a lot of the criticism seems to imply that the Legionnaire was a grunt CSM when we simply don't know who the Legionnaire was. He could be an officer with decades of experience and training or even a veteran from the HH. Finally like I mentioned about my friend and his ideas on _Legion_ for all we know the story could be another example of half-truths and lies spun into an alternate story of the Crimson Consuls' destruction.
> 
> Secrets and lies...
> 
> Always secrets and lies...


I just realized this happened already. 

So now I wonder if it's a mistake on BL's part or if the AL did in fact take out two loyalist chapters in the exact same way.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Not a big fan of Alpha Legion fluff. For an astartes force to have these tactics I find it counter productive. We have huge armor, super human warriors that go around scheming. A force with so much strength (especially since Deliverance Lost), just not using that power. It is understandable why Guilliman thought Alpharius' tactics were a waste of time.

Wasting years of time when they already have the ability to wipe out the opposition shows their arrogance and almost need to scheme. Almost like they enjoy to amuse themselves and toy with their enemies. 

Because of their tactics, they are the hardest legion to incorporate with other legions successfully. The only Alpha Legion moment I enjoyed was the Istvaan Massacre. It was still a bit different than the Alpha Legion's normal tactics with infliteration.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I guess it boils down to...I don't like them because their whole schtick seems to be making other legions look dimwitted


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