# Drop podding Dark Eldar... what do you think?



## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Recently I posted this thread in the *40K Rules Discussion* section of the forum. 

In it I asked if I was reading the Duke Sliscus *Low Orbit Raid* rule on page 51 of the DE dex correctly. It seemed to me, unlike the *Retrofire Jets* upgrade, *LOR* effectively allows a DE player treat Raiders and Venoms as a drop pod of sorts.

The consensus was that indeed the Duke's *LOB* rule allowed this. Quite naturally a tactical discussion ensued concerning whether this was a good idea or a bad one. As my initial rule inquiry had been answered, I thought was a good idea to move the tactical discussion here.


So what do you think? Drop podding DE a good idea or a bad one?





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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

well, its good if your not going into a gunline/CC army. if you do it then your prolly gonna be coming in piece meal and bit size DE usually mean dead DE. 

basically its the same as having everything on your army move flat out if you have 1st turn. not much help basically.

Edit: my thoughts are that its a fluffy, but not competitive list - too much chance.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Fallen said:


> basically its the same as having everything on your army move flat out if you have 1st turn. not much help basically.


Well, yes and no. True, that you get close to the enemy quickly, but no because of two very important exceptions. 

*(1.) * Both your vehicles and transported infantry *can* fire the turn you come in via deep strike, but *can't* fire if you move flat out. When deep striking your vehicles count as moving at cruising speed. Since they're fast vehicles they'll be able to fire one main weapon + all defensive weapons (so DL's and SC's can blaze away at full effect). In addition, while your infantry can't fire if they stay embarked after deep striking, they can (if the benefit is great enough and it's worth it) disembark and fire all rapid fire and assault weapons to full effect. To me that's a very big difference between deep striking and going flat out turn 1. 

And

*(2.)* While your vehicles will get a 4+ cover save, moving flat out is insanely more dangerous for the models being transported. Not only can't they disembark that turn, but according to the FAQ for the main rulebook will be automatically destroyed if the transport is.


> *Online FAQ for the 40K Rulebook* _(Official Update Version 1.4)_ *pg. 6*
> *Q: *If a transport vehicle is destroyed in the same turn as
> it moved flat out what happens to any embarked
> models? (p70)
> *A:* They are removed as casualties


Coming in piece meal is a problem, but not as big a problem as going flat out turn one. With AV10 open topped vehicles you are highly likely to loose several (even with the 4+ cover save), and not only loose the transports but every single model inside to boot.

In addition, I think the problems of coming in piece meal can be negated somewhat by army composition. Focusing on redundancy and getting as many units and as many guns in your army as possible will get you more reserve rolls and increase the likelihood of you getting units on the board as well as make maximum use of your first shot deep strike capability. 


Remember, coming in via deep strike doesn't mean you have to get in close. Many of the DE's most potent weapons are 36" range. Sometimes we might just be talking about assuring we get first shot. Even blasters with a 2" disembark move will have a 20" range. 




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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Uber Ork, it's not dangerous in any way to go flat out unless you destroy your own transport. Turn=Player Turn unless otherwise noted. So you only die in disembarking if you are destroyed in the SAME player turn you went Flat out. During your opponents Player Turn, it's another turn, and there's no disadvantage to you for going flat out. 
The main issue I have is not getting your reserves in at a decent pace. You need to roll for reserves Turn 2, and you risk being scattered. Drop Pods come in 50% turn 1, and are a much more reliable system.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Creon said:


> Uber Ork, it's not dangerous in any way to go flat out unless you destroy your own transport. Turn=Player Turn unless otherwise noted. So you only die in disembarking if you are destroyed in the SAME player turn you went Flat out. During your opponents Player Turn, it's another turn, and there's no disadvantage to you for going flat out.


Good point. I guess the FAQ didn't specify "game turn." Alright, well that makes going flat out a lot safer. Just don't end your move in terrain, fail the dangerous terrain test, get immobilized, and due to going flat out get destroyed. I guess if you do all that, you deserve to loose the guys inside. 






Creon said:


> The main issue I have is not getting your reserves in at a decent pace. You need to roll for reserves Turn 2, and you risk being scattered. Drop Pods come in 50% turn 1, and are a much more reliable system.


True, that is a drawback. I think the way I look at this however, is everything has its *+*'s and *-*'s including drop pods. For example...


___________________
*Marine Drop Pod +'s:*
*+* Creates first strike capability. While you can't assault the turn you deep strike, you can shoot rapid fire and assault weapons to full affect

*+* Very reliable guidance system that aside from board edges is very safe

*+ *Are fairly cheap

*+* Can be placed in such a way as to create cover

*+* Once cargo is disgorged are likely to be ignored (except in KP missions) and will be able to reliably pop off a few bolter shots each turn


___________________
*Marine Drop Pod -'s:*
*-* Once down are immobile

*-* Once army is down they're slow from that point forward

*-* Have to have 50% of your force come in 1st turn which limits tactical flexibility, especially if your opponent elects to come in reserve himself. This wastes much of your 'first strike' capability, and getting that first shot is one of the major reasons to go with a drop pod list in the first place

*-* Are medium AV, open topped, and immobile making them easy pickings for KP missions both to enemy fire and assault

*-* Later units come in reserve and so are somewhat unreliable as to when they arrive





The issue for me then, is whether the *+*'s outweigh the *-*'s. Looking at a potential DE drop podding list I see this...


___________________________
*DE Sliscus Low Orbit Raid +'s:*
*+* Creates first strike capability with infantry shooting as marine drop pod's do

*+* Vehicles (while more expensive) can fire better weapons than marine drop pod's, and are not immobile in future turns

*+* Opponents are less likely to avoid first strike capability as you are not required to bring on 50% of your transports turn one. 

*+* Sliscus affords maximum flexibility as you don't have to make use of his Low Orbit Raid rule. Since you roll for first turn before deployment, you can see what happens and decide if you want to come in via deep strike or not. If you win first turn you can deploy normally, if not you can elect to come in via deep strike and deny your opponent a free turn shooting at your AV10 open topped transports 


___________________________
*DE Sliscus Low Orbit Raid -'s:*
*-* DE transports don't come equipped with guidance systems and so will scatter 2D6 making deep striking them more of a risky proposition 

*-* While Venoms have a small footprint like a marine drop pod, raiders are much bigger and might cause problems if landing too close to terrain or friendly/enemy models

*-* DE transports are AV10 and open topped so they are vulnerable to enemy fire on the following turn and will not have the advantage of going flat out to protect them (4+ cover drops to 5+ invul of FF)

*-* Entire army comes in reserve and so are somewhat unreliable as to when they arrive

*-* To make maximum use of 'Low Orbit Raid' you'll probably want to take a shooty list and that means you probably wont be making much use of wych's or other units that can benefit from the Duke's 'Contraband' rule. However, the opposite is usually the case when taking Sliscus. Most lists including him make maximum use of 'Contraband' and 'The Serpant's Venom' but make little to no use of 'Low Orbit Raid.' The tactic I'm proposing will make use of LOR and TSV, but not so much of 'Contraband.'





Each situation (and any army in 40K for that matter) has it's strengths and weaknesses. So the real question is do the strengths and weaknesses of a DE Sliscus deep strike list weigh out in one direction or the other? IMO, I think the strengths outweigh the weaknesses, and that of the major weaknesses the list does have (scatter & coming in piece meal) can be mitigated somewhat by army selection.




** Scatter* can be mitigated by taking a venom heavy list for the smaller vehicle footprint and by using the range (36" for SC's and 20" for any blasters that disembark) to come down in safe areas on the board. As you'll be coming in piece meal you can use this to your advantage. With only your opponent's army on the board, make sure to utilize your medium range and put down in areas where the worst thing you'll be landing on is dangerous terrain.

Even if your opponent was somehow able to make it so there were no safe places on the board then you still have the friendly mishap table. This table is scary, but it's better than what happened in previous editions. At least now you only have a 33% of instant death, before 'terrible accident' was all there was. If you're smart in where you come down you can avoid this all together, but even if you don't, odds are (66%) you'll have your opponent forcing you to take a dangerous terrain test or you'll be going back into reserve.

As the game grinds on the mishap table becomes more dangerous as any unit going back in reserve could be destroyed due to the game ending. However, in future turns you'll also be able to move units already down on the board in such a way as to make room for new units arriving. Remember, any units that you may have disembarked the turn they arrived will be able to embark on following turn (as they're already within 2") *and* have the transport move away. 




** Coming in piece meal* can also be mitigated somewhat by army selection. Redundancy and taking multiple small units is the key here. A venom spam list with loads of DL/blasters and SC's would go well with this. As I mentioned earlier in the thread...


> Focusing on redundancy and getting as many units and as many guns in your army as possible will get you more reserve rolls and increase the likelihood of you getting units on the board as well as make maximum use of your first shot deep strike capability.








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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

You don't HAVE to use Drop Pod assault with Marines.

Immobility can be counteracted with transports bought for other units. Take Devastators with a Rhino, and have the Devastators deploy, Terminators with a Land Raider and Deep Strike.

They are weak in KP missions - but they allow you to focus your forces in one particular area, meaning almost complete destruction of 1 or two units upon deep strike. Their strength is obviously Objectives - and not just because they are poor in KP, but because they allow you take your opponents home objective. I personally run Bikes and occasionally Outflank with Khan, and something many opponents don't count on is losing their home objective, and rarely try to go for my home objective, so my game typically results in my contesting both of theirs and claiming my own. The same works out with Space Marine Drop Pods.

Try running Sternguard Drop Pods with Pedo Kantor - Stubborn so won't shift anywhere, and 3 attacks each because of his rule, and nasty, nasty firepower. Alternativelyl 2 Sternguard Drop Pods and 1 Command Squad with 4 Plasma's/Flamers and 4 Meltaguns back by Kantor

Meanwhile, hold the home objective with 3+ Space Marine Squads with Rhino's and two jump pack less assault squads with Drop Pods to allow for Drop Pod assault.

As for Low Orbit - Sliscus in a Venom Spam army is quite nasty - and there's no saying you have to Deep Strike either, you can just hold them in reserve and bring them on from the board edge.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

um vas, if you have drop pods you HAVE to use drop pod assault.

read the wording, and Ill quote it here:

"At the beginning of your first turn, you MUST choose half of your drop pods (rounding up) to make a 'drop pod assault'." 

thats the second sentence within the drop pod assault rule which the marine drop pods ALL have.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Yes, unfortunately *KhainiteAssassin* has it right. 

I would love to do an all drop pod space marine army. Over the past 10 or so years I've found my vanilla marines increasingly boring. I haven't even played them for probably 8 years now. They sit guarding their carrying case. 

Back when GW was about to release their new drop pod model, my interest was suddenly and completely revived. I would have never sprung for the forge world drop pod, but GW releasing it in plastic was a different story. Visions of drop pods hurtling towards a planet's surface to disgorging their deadly cargo into the maelstrom of battle began to dance through my head. With excitement I picked up my marine dex and re-read the section on drop pods. Instantly my heart sank. 

As I read the portion entitled 'Drop Pod Assault' I began to see how it could be a problem. My fears were quickly confirmed as I went online. In forum after forum I began to receive negative feedback for my all drop pod list.

Being forced to bring in 50% of my drop pods on turn one, could simply be countered by a crafty opponent holding their mechanized force in reserve. Doing so would provide me with an empty table to drop onto in turn one. Not only that, but it would be my opponent now who would get the first strike me instead of the other way around. If I grouped up for mutual defense, my units would be able to support each other but I'd have to foot slog it if I ever needed to move. If I spread out to take more than one or two objectives, I could find myself isolated and taken out piecemeal. 

The fluff that had so inspired me was suddenly snuffed out by a reality that was quite different. Marines weren't supposed to drop pod into safe landing zones, they were supposed to drop pod strait into the action. Likewise, marines weren't supposed to be taken by surprise in an enemy ambush, they're supposed to be the ones getting in the first strike and crushing the enemy with overwhelming force. 

Once the gaming community learned how to counter all drop pod lists, drop podding took on a much more modest tone. Most of what you see now are marine players taking a handful of drop pods (2-4) so they can have 1 or 2 tactical squads drop in from reserve and capture an objective(s) in the mid to later stages of the game. 'Drop Pod Assault,' for me, is the single biggest detractor to playing an all marine drop pod list. 




Recently however, my drop pod fervor was revived.


One day while re-reading the fluff in the DE dex, the precise wording of Duke Sliscus 'Low Orbit Raid' rule struck me. I had never caught it before and in my head had simply dismissed it as him (in essence) giving Raiders, Venoms, and Ravagers 'Retrofire Jets' for free. However, that is not at all what this rule does. 

While 'Retrofire Jets' allows DE transports to deep strike, those embarked can not disembark. 'Low Orbit Raid' however, just says these units can deep strike. In essence, a Raider or Venom can now act like a marine drop pod. This allows not only the DE transports to fire at full affect but their passengers as well. They can simply disembark and fire just as if they were in a drop pod. However, just as marine drop pods have a major glaring weakness, so do DE transports. 

Both share the problem of having some (SM) or all (DE) of your force coming in piecemeal from reserve. SM drop pods have the lameness that is 'Drop Pod Assault,' and the DE have to worry about lacking a guidance system. Having everyone of your units scatter 2D6 could spell trouble. Most of the time the average will be 6-9" but still, every time you roll the dice you run the risk of something bad happening. 

I don't have a problem with the risk from a fluff standpoint. It fits Sliscus MO for taking grave risks to feed his megalomania perfectly, however, from a tactical standpoint is it wise? _My main question is this,_ can the lack of a guidance system be lessened somewhat through careful army selection, and ...do the positives of this tactic outweigh the negatives?






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