# Is chaos the only true answer?



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

So I was thinking and, as things are currently, the Imperium is fucked. Whether it happens in a hundred years or a thousand years, eventually it's gonna collapse from all the shit that gets thrown at it. Also, many people (me included) think that the Emperor somehow returning (which is extremely unlikely in anyways) might actually cause more trouble and unrest than good. 

So it got me pondering, if humanity wants to have a shot at defeating all their enemies and being the last race standing, then they're gonna have to get support from somewhere. Is chaos the answer? With the backing of the dark gods, do you guys think humanity has a shot at reclaiming the galaxy and establishing their dominance? Because they sure as hell can't do it with what they have now. 

Anyway, was just curious about what you guys thought about the matter?


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

I do not think Chaos has enough interest in the long term strategies of followers.

Apart from the Traitor Legions all the followers of Chaos seem to collapse into uncivil war and decadence.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

some traitors found out really quick that chaos was on no way the answer to mankinds' salvation. That is just what the pantheon used to trick the weakest mind of the primarchs (lorgar).

The one reason they currently may care about the longevity of humans is because by keeping a constant large supply around they are continually fueled by their emotion.

If another sentient race with a lot of emotion moved in and took over the galaxy then the chaos gods would disregard their focus on mankind in a heartbeat. they are selfish beings who have been around long before humanity. Besides in by succumbing to their will, we have seen in the fiction and fluff how that doesn't really save you either, it really turns you more into a slave. So 'being saved' is at the cost of losing your identity and free will.

Most of the Night Lords recognized this flaw in the worship of the dark gods, thats why they think their brother traitor legions are weak and despicable in their actions of praying to them, begging them for things, willingly letting demons possess them and whatever else.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

The path to reestablishing Humanity's domination can be achieved, even under its current form of government. The question is not one of dominance -- it is one of survival.

The "Emperor" as we know him is gone, and that fact must eventually be accepted by the Imperium. It would take a titanic force of personality from an individual or individuals to bring the Imperium out of its current form. It has the manpower, it has the resources, it merely needs the direction.

Exactly where that direction will come from and in what shape it will take is unknown. Because essientally the Imperium is a 40k replica of the Roman Empire in its later days. Even the fall of Rome was never a guarantee, just an almost certainty, it could have been saved had the right men at the right time been in the right place. Its all a matter of circumstance and probability.


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## Liege of the Darkness (Feb 19, 2011)

Chaos is often described as being the 'Primordial Truth' in _The First Heretic_. Often portrayed not as something evil, (Partly down to the subjective nature of the term) but as something that merely _is_. Something that cannot be conquered, slain, but held back, or prolongued at best. So, conceptually, Chaos is an uncategorisable force that is the dark-side of nature, in essense, and has always existed - fuelled by man's own decadence. 

However, is Chaos the only true answer? Well firstly, Chaos is not inherently the 'True answer' to begin with. Although from the maws of Daemons, zealotic syccophants and Chaos Astartes it may indeed seem so, Chaos is just another aspect of the Galaxy - an omnipotent and sentient one at that. 

It is akin to saying whether Christianity is the 'True Religion' and God is the right face of the being worshipped by the monotheist religions of the world. 'True' is subjective, like many things. It is a concept shaped by the designs of the beholder into a force of so-called justice, indignation or righteousness. Chaos just _is_, it isn't right nor wrong, just a turbulence of emotion that exists unto its own laws, just like the Necrontyr or Hive Fleets.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

We should just join forces with the C'tan as a big FUCK YOU to Chaos :laugh:

But I have been thinking the same thoughts. Chaos seems to be the closest thing to an "ever-constant" and in one way or another it will previal (at least thats how I see i right now, my opinion tends to fluxuate a lot)

BUt isn't Chaos dependant on Man because they feed off us? I guess they could feed into other sentient beings but if you think about it, we are their main source, otherwise they wouldn't be so invlolved with human beings.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

*Better to ally with yo mama*

Bartering with Chaos as an 'ally' might raise humanity back to the heights it supposeldy held in the post-HH galaxy, but would at the same time subsume humanity to the status of vassal at best and entirely mutate it both figuratively and literally at worst. There would be no humanity in the end, as the entire race would become spawns. I don't think the serpent eating its tail analogy would get the Chaos Gods to moderate their singlemindedness of purpose of completely consuming humanity... which is the very essence of their nature.

On the other hand, the Imperium by it's own nature can't actually create alliances with other races to ensure it's not destroyed by a trillion cuts. So yea, I'd say the Imperium is completely screwed, unless some serious Interex-like enlightenment overtakes the Mechanicum with both the strength and brains to reach out to a race like the Tau for the betterment of both.

BTW, I haven't made it through the entire HH series, but is there any mention of what happened to the Interex after Horus retreated, then got turned?


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## Liege of the Darkness (Feb 19, 2011)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> BTW, I haven't made it through the entire HH series, but is there any mention of what happened to the Interex after Horus retreated, then got turned?


There might be a glimpse of a reference in the sequal, _False Gods_, but other than that I doubt it. Partly due to differing authors not always contuining every single plot-thread of the prequel - just the 'Ones that matter' or are directly linked to the overall story. 

On the contrary, _Fulgrim_ has a large section of the book centered around the hunt for a race-come-alliance of humans and Xenos known as the _Disinterex_ I believe? Although plot-wise this serves as a base to found Emperor's Children and Iron Hands relations, it does provide an interesting angle on Imperial attitudes to 'Xenos sympathisers'.

The Chaos God's motives and objectives are childlike and whimsical at best. The means to _attain_ these objectives, however, are on a level so grand mortal and immortal alike cannot fathom.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Chompy Bits said:


> So it got me pondering, if humanity wants to have a shot at defeating all their enemies and being the last race standing, then they're gonna have to get support from somewhere. Is chaos the answer? With the backing of the dark gods, do you guys think humanity has a shot at reclaiming the galaxy and establishing their dominance? Because they sure as hell can't do it with what they have now.


What do you mean "establishing their dominance?" The Imperium pretty much rules the galaxy. Humanity is the most powerful race in 40k, the only thing that makes them seem weak is that they are beset from everywhere. If the imperium was able to mobilize all of it's forces against a single enemy, as it currently stands in the the lore, they would smash any force in the galaxy into dust. They have more manpower and resources then any other force in the galaxy.

What the Imperium needs is one person on mars who is willing to look beyond the STC and try building something new. The also need to look at the emperors notes on how to activate Space Marine Geneseed without dumb crap like "Insanguination."

Oh, and the Codex Astartes should be suspended for about 1000 years, then reinstated.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Wusword77 said:


> What do you mean "establishing their dominance?" The Imperium pretty much rules the galaxy. Humanity is the most powerful race in 40k, the only thing that makes them seem weak is that they are beset from everywhere. If the imperium was able to mobilize all of it's forces against a single enemy, as it currently stands in the the lore, they would smash any force in the galaxy into dust. They have more manpower and resources then any other force in the galaxy.


But that's the problem, the Imperium *is* beset on all sides. They lack the manpower to deal with the problems that are growing both within and without. The Imperium of man is dead, it's just no one bothered to fully explain it to them.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

If I wasn't someone politically big, or someone of importance in the Imperium, I would definitley tell the Emperor to go fuck himself and Chaos would be the only answer.


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## Shag (Jul 12, 2009)

BlackGuard said:


> The path to reestablishing Humanity's domination can be achieved, even under its current form of government. The question is not one of dominance -- it is one of survival.
> 
> The "Emperor" as we know him is gone, and that fact must eventually be accepted by the Imperium. It would take a titanic force of personality from an individual or individuals to bring the Imperium out of its current form. It has the manpower, it has the resources, it merely needs the direction.
> 
> Exactly where that direction will come from and in what shape it will take is unknown. Because essientally the Imperium is a 40k replica of the Roman Empire in its later days. Even the fall of Rome was never a guarantee, just an almost certainty, it could have been saved had the right men at the right time been in the right place. Its all a matter of circumstance and probability.


I totally agree the emperor is dead like Elvis Presley. He's just not coming back. Chaos might be the answer, but another answer could be to get rid of the emperor's deluded ideals. The great Pech from the Alpha legion said it well when he said that the utopians goals that the emperor set are ultimately the cause for the downfall of a flawed species. The tau have got it right if you ask me, though I'm no commy. 

Eventually the tide will shift to where the ideals of the emperor (curse his name) will fade. It's hard to lead a people dead. Unless you are a zombie... But I digress. That doens't fully answer the question because the original question is one of dominance of man not of cooperation. For complete dominance... yeah I have no clue how the Imperium could pull that out of its butt.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Liege of the Darkness said:


> Chaos is often described as being the 'Primordial Truth' in _The First Heretic_. Often portrayed not as something evil, (Partly down to the subjective nature of the term) but as something that merely _is_. Something that cannot be conquered, slain, but held back, or prolongued at best. So, conceptually, Chaos is an uncategorisable force that is the dark-side of nature, in essense, and has always existed - fuelled by man's own decadence.
> 
> However, is Chaos the only true answer? Well firstly, Chaos is not inherently the 'True answer' to begin with. Although from the maws of Daemons, zealotic syccophants and Chaos Astartes it may indeed seem so, Chaos is just another aspect of the Galaxy - an omnipotent and sentient one at that.
> 
> It is akin to saying whether Christianity is the 'True Religion' and God is the right face of the being worshipped by the monotheist religions of the world. 'True' is subjective, like many things. It is a concept shaped by the designs of the beholder into a force of so-called justice, indignation or righteousness. Chaos just _is_, it isn't right nor wrong, just a turbulence of emotion that exists unto its own laws, just like the Necrontyr or Hive Fleets.


Errr... methinks you misunderstood me. My question is more whether chaos is the only option in getting the Imperium out of the corner it's getting pushed into.



Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> BTW, I haven't made it through the entire HH series, but is there any mention of what happened to the Interex after Horus retreated, then got turned?


Actually, there is a hint in one of the early HH books that suggests that the Interex were destroyed but nothing concrete is given. I'll try and see if I can find the quote.


As some people have mentioned, an option could be to try and invent new tech. My problem there is, will they have enough time to re-learn how to invent shit and actually implement it before it's too late. Throwing off 10,000 years of baggage and starting over with the way the AdMech do things won't be quick and it sure as hell won't be easy. That's why I see chaos as the quick fix. Not perfect by a long shot, but something that could give the human race a shot at coming through the shitstorm they are currently enveloped in.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> As some people have mentioned, an option could be to try and invent new tech. My problem there is, will they have enough time to re-learn how to invent shit and actually implement it before it's too late. Throwing off 10,000 years of baggage and starting over with the way the AdMech do things won't be quick and it sure as hell won't be easy. That's why I see chaos as the quick fix. Not perfect by a long shot, but something that could give the human race a shot at coming through the shitstorm they are currently enveloped in.


The inherent flaw with that plan is that the gods do not take kindly to being used. The Emperor tried it, and failed to overcome the gods retaliation resulting in aforementioned shitstorm in the first place. You think Chaos will just be happy to help out when they`re contributing majorly to the problem to begin with?

There`s only one real chance. The Emperor dies. If humanity realizes that it can survive with out him (assuming it can) then maybe they will not be so close minded about other things. However that in itself could result in Chaos seeming more viable...


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

I really don't think that the Imperium is as screwed as GW makes them out to be.
Think about it, the space marine legions took over a LOAD of the galaxy, and they still have half of the legions left, and now they have the Codex Astartes to help them out too.

Not to mention the trillions of expendable guardsmen at their disposal.

And humanity is only truly realising it's psychic potential now.

And once the Emperor is reborn, he'll magically fix everything anyway, he's not referred to as the "god-emperor" for nothing.


Yep, I think everything's gonna be just fine...


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## Sangriento (Dec 1, 2010)

BlackGuard said:


> The path to reestablishing Humanity's domination can be achieved, even under its current form of government. The question is not one of dominance -- it is one of survival.
> 
> The "Emperor" as we know him is gone, and that fact must eventually be accepted by the Imperium. It would take a titanic force of personality from an individual or individuals to bring the Imperium out of its current form. It has the manpower, it has the resources, it merely needs the direction.
> 
> Exactly where that direction will come from and in what shape it will take is unknown. Because essientally the Imperium is a 40k replica of the Roman Empire in its later days. Even the fall of Rome was never a guarantee, just an almost certainty, it could have been saved had the right men at the right time been in the right place. Its all a matter of circumstance and probability.


the problem with that is that the Imperium has built all his structure around the Emperor, and you just cannot change that. Worlds that pledge allegiance to the Imperium would turn their back to it if the Emperor stopped being his one and only God.

Hell, 50% of the Imperium force is the mechanicum, and they only help them because they agreed that the Emperor = Omnisiah long ago.

They can support a Creed, a Gaunt, a Malcador or a Macharius, or if Russ made a miraculous return or Guilliman healed.....because they see them as agents of the Emperor.

Remove the Emperor from that equation and the Mechanicum would split sides with the Imperium, leaving that charismatic individual in the dust because he just cannot be the Omnisiah, hence they owe him absolutly nothing.


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## Sangriento (Dec 1, 2010)

Weapon said:


> I really don't think that the Imperium is as screwed as GW makes them out to be.
> Think about it, the space marine legions took over a LOAD of the galaxy, and they still have half of the legions left, and now they have the Codex Astartes to help them out too.
> 
> Not to mention the trillions of expendable guardsmen at their disposal.
> ...


as you said, the Imperium not only has lost half the driving force that made them become the dominant species of the galaxy for a short time, but that half has become a main antagonist that didnt exist back then.

not only that, Necrons and Nids hadnt showed themselves by the time mankind was kicking butts in the stars.

Using the past record of the Imperium is moot at this point, since the 3 biggest contenders for galaxy domination hadnt appeared yet.


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## Liege of the Darkness (Feb 19, 2011)

Weapon said:


> I really don't think that the Imperium is as screwed as GW makes them out to be.
> Think about it, the space marine legions took over a LOAD of the galaxy, and they still have half of the legions left, and now they have the Codex Astartes to help them out too.


Firstly the majority of the Galaxy remains unexplored by the Imperium, or at the very most, uncolonised. The Great Crusade was only the pinnacle of the Imperium, not of humanity, and even still, the vast majority of worlds bearing human-populations during the Dark Age of Technology are undiscovered.

Secondly, the Imperium dosen't have half of the original _18_ Legions left. As an example, the Raven Guard before Isstvan V compromised of around 90,000 Astartes, not including serfs, servitors and Naval support. The same applies for the Iron Hands and Salamanders. The Iron Hands, partly due to the frenzy of the possessed Emperor's Children, partly down to Ferrus Manus being revenge-stricken, were, for all intents and purposes, destroyed. With the Raven Guard and Salamanders suffering somewhere in the region of 80-90% total-Legion losses. The Ultramarines Legion was once 250,000 Astartes - A quater of a million genhanced, superhuman praetorians of humanity. 

So inherently, in terms of strength, that statement is wrong. The parent Chapter's of their previous Legions are far smaller, and they are often regarded as being the most powerful of Chapters - Imperial Fists, Black Templars, Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and so forth. Even the proto-Crusades of the Black Templars are a miserable comparison to the days of the Great Crusade. The Ultramarine's and Raven Guard Chapter's no long number into the hundreds of thousands, nor shall they ever again.

Thirdly, adherence to the Codex Astartes does not make one Chapter greater than the other. Many Chapters, both ferociously loyal, and renegade alike, look away from Guilliman's teachings, and rightly so. It is rumoured even Guilliman himself looked outside of the Codex in terms of tactical acumen to defeat Alpharius.



Weapon said:


> Not to mention the trillions of expendable guardsmen at their disposal.


Guardsmen, PDF and mercenary forces truly aren't expendable. Human's must be born, nurtured and taught. Children must be educated and trained to fight. Men must be equipped, transported and deployed. It all acumulates into colossal quantities of resources for a single Guardsmen.



Weapon said:


> And humanity is only truly realising it's psychic potential now.


The more Psykers, Navigators and Astropaths there are, the more human becomes attuned to the Warp, the more likely humanity shall undergo a Fall akin to that of the Eldar.

To quote *Child-of-the-Emperor*: 
_"Only a learned few amongst Mankind know the true threat of Chaos, and have learned from the doom of others just what can happen to a race that succumbs to the lure of Chaos. Shattered worlds and long-forgotten civilisations dot the galaxy as testament to whole species that fell into damnation or destroyed themselves in the service of Chaos. Of these, the greatest were the Eldar-a race that once spanned the galaxy, now reduced to a few survivors adrift upon the cold void.

There are some Eldar, those not too prepossessed with their own woes and struggles for survival, who see in Mankind the same peril that destroyed their race. For these individuals, Mankind is a reminder of what happened long ago. Humanity is treading the same path towards the darkness of Chaos, a crude mirror of the Eldar's own disgrace. All the signs are there for those with the wit and experience to see them. The growth of mutation, the ever-increasing numbers of psykers and the swelling legions of those sworn to the Dark Gods all point towards the impending cataclysm. Should the weaknesses of Mankind prove too great, one only needs to look at the Fall of the Eldar to see the consequences of failure.

The teeming thousands of trillions of humans spread across the galaxy provide an unmatched source of psychic energy to feed the Chaos Gods. As Humanity evolves towards its psychic potential, the threat of Chaos grows greater with every passing generation. There is but one reason why Mankind has not already been plunged into a nightmare age of slavery to the Dark Gods of Chaos -the Emperor...

...Such a fate is best not contemplated, for without the Emperor's protection, Mankind would be scattered and alone in the darkness, utterly helpless before the dark temptations of Chaos. Humanity's damnation would bring about the victory of the Dark Gods and the Realm of Chaos would engulf the galaxy."_




Weapon said:


> And once the Emperor is reborn, he'll magically fix everything anyway, he's not referred to as the "god-emperor" for nothing.


'God' is subjective. Was the Emperor a God to begin with? With he a demi-God who ascended to true Godhood after his death? Was he an ordinary, extraordinary human-being who's vision has protected humanity? Or has his worship in turn made him a God...



Weapon said:


> Yep, I think everything's gonna be just fine...


Until the Astronomican collapses, Terra is engulfed by Daemonic cohorts, and all but the Eastern Fringe is swept beneath a tide of Chaos, which in turn shall be degraded into biomass by the Great Devourer, or forcefully absorbed into the Tau Empire.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Wusword77 said:


> Humanity is the most powerful race in 40k, the only thing that makes them seem weak is that they are beset from everywhere. If the imperium was able to mobilize all of it's forces against a single enemy, as it currently stands in the the lore, they would smash any force in the galaxy into dust. They have more manpower and resources then any other force in the galaxy.


Depends entirely on how you define _"powerful"_. You said yourself they cannot bring their entire armed forces to bear on a single opponent so it's neither here nor there . Does humanity outnumber the Greenskins? The Tyranids? Unlikely. Do they have the most stable regime in the galaxy? Most likely not. The best technology or most advanced technological development rate? Nope. 

The Imperium is *probably* the largest galactic empire. But it is decadent, backwards, hypocritical, besieged on all sides, lacking in anything progressive in terms of technology, politics, philosophy etc, and is dependent entirely on a single individual.

Recent events should also be factored into the equation:


The Astronomican has dimmed (resulting in intermittent (in cases complete loss of) contact with the fringes of the Imperium).


Numerous systems surrounding the Maelstrom are under siege by Blackheart's forces.


Innumberable warp rifts and daemonic incursions erupt throughout the galaxy as a result of the Great Awakening. 


Irreparable faults are discovered in the mechanisms of the Golden Throne.


Previously thought of as stable sections of the Imperium are lost to uprisings during the Night of a Thousand Rebellions. Contact is lost with large swathes of Segmentum Pacificus.


The 13th Black Crusade has resulted in the Imperium's hold on the Cadian Gate being broken. The Eye of Terror's boundaries have expanded and it's gates are no longer barred.


Other innumerable threats have arisen or escalated. Including Ork Waaaghs! Hive Fleets, Necrons, Et cetera.

The Imperium hasn't been in such a dire position for a very long time. The only thing they really have going for them is the Emperor. And even his tenuous hold on his fragile corpse seems to be failing. 



Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> BTW, I haven't made it through the entire HH series, but is there any mention of what happened to the Interex after Horus retreated, then got turned?


IIRC Horus mentions in passing to Loken that in time another expedition would be drawn up to annihilate the Interex, of course though that may have been delayed indefinitely due to the Heresy. So ultimately we don't know. 



Weapon said:


> I really don't think that the Imperium is as screwed as GW makes them out to be.


They really are.



Weapon said:


> And humanity is only truly realising it's psychic potential now.


You do realise that as things stand this is actually a very bad thing right?

EDIT: _Liege of Darkness_ covered that in his last post.



Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> ...would get the Chaos Gods to moderate their singlemindedness of purpose of completely consuming humanity... which is the very essence of their nature.


OT: _"Shattered worlds and long-forgotten civilisations dot the galaxy as testament to whole species that fell into damnation or destroyed themselves in the service of Chaos."_

Assuming those are the only two fates awaiting a race that pledges itself to chaos, which would await humanity? Destruction or damnation?

Well considering the Dark Gods _"for the most part care nothing for the affairs of mortals. They are only concerned with eternal flow of emotion across aeons"_ and considering humanity _"provides an unmatched source of psychic energy to feed the Chaos Gods"_ and that _"Chaos would be much diminished without mankind."_ I think it is safe to assume that the Four wouldn't allow humanity to destroy itself in their service.

If we also remove the Emperor from the equation (as a catalyst for why humanity turns to Chaos in the first place) then it is claimed in two sources (_Codex: Imperialis_ and _Codex: Chaos Daemons_) that the Realm of Chaos would engulf the galaxy as a result. With the Chaos Gods determined to allow humanity to endure and with the Realm of Chaos having engulfed the galaxy, humanity would essentially be in a position of dominance in terms of the mortal races. Enslaved to the will of the Four, but dominant nonetheless.

So is Chaos the only true answer? Well it seems that three options stand open to humanity: the Emperor, Chaos or extinction. With one of those options (the Emperor) *plausably* being removed very soon. If that is the case, that potentially leaves Chaos or extinction. Perhaps it's not such a clear-cut choice, (as the priest Uriah claimed) perhaps extinction is preferable to tyranny and slavery. Generally though I think it depends on the Emperor, and what will happen when the Golden Throne finally fails.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Depends entirely on how you define _"powerful"_. You said yourself they cannot bring their entire armed forces to bear on a single opponent so it's neither here nor there . Does humanity outnumber the Greenskins? The Tyranids? Unlikely. Do they have the most stable regime in the galaxy? Most likely not. The best technology or most advanced technological development rate? Nope.


Humanity does not outnumber the Orks or Nids as a race, but there is no Ork empire remotely as large as the Imperium. As it currently stands with the nids the different hive fleets don't seem to be working together beyond a common goal to feed.

The only race that may have a more stable regime would be the Tau, but the Emperor has "ruled" the imperium for longer then the Tau empire has been around.

We know they don't have the best technology, but their tech seems to do pretty well in combat.



> The Imperium is *probably* the largest galactic empire. But it is decadent, backwards, hypocritical, besieged on all sides, lacking in anything progressive in terms of technology, politics, philosophy etc, and is dependent entirely on a single individual.


The Imperium is the largest galactic empire, as the only other empire is the Tau. The Eldar have retreated into Craftworlds or the Webway, with a few on scattered planets around the galaxy. The Orks are not unified beyond fleeting Waaghs, the Nids have individual hive fleets who don't seek to claim worlds, and the Necrons have low working numbers and possibly many destroyed or heavily damaged tomb worlds.



> Recent events should also be factored into the equation:
> 
> 
> The Astronomican has dimmed (resulting in intermittent (in cases complete loss of) contact with the fringes of the Imperium).
> ...


Just because the Imperium is the strongest doesn't mean it doesn't face threats, or that the threats are dire. However, if there was a change in strategy by the Imperium (like assigning priority to truly important targets) the Imperium could weather the current storm. The only issue of lasting importance is the Golden Throne, but we don't know what would happen if the Emperor actually died. For all we know his death could seal shut the webway gate below Terra forever and his power could be stored in the Astronomicon to power it forever. Or the flood gates could open and humanity could lose Terra forever.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Wusword77 said:


> The Imperium is the largest galactic empire, as the only other empire is the Tau. The Eldar have retreated into Craftworlds or the Webway, with a few on scattered planets around the galaxy. The Orks are not unified beyond fleeting Waaghs, the Nids have individual hive fleets who don't seek to claim worlds, and the Necrons have low working numbers and possibly many destroyed or heavily damaged tomb worlds.


There are countless xenos species, empires and civilisations throughout the galaxy. The Imperium likely hasn't made contact with the majority of them. And considering most of the galaxy remains unexplored, huge galactic empires could potentially exist out in the void. Who knows what lurks out amongst the stars?

Just because every single race doesn't have a tabletop army, doesn't mean they don't exist in the lore.



Wusword77 said:


> However, if there was a change in strategy by the Imperium (like assigning priority to truly important targets) the Imperium could weather the current storm.


You do realise thats what their doing right? Hence why the Tau Empire still exists and is still expanding for an example - because the Imperium cannot afford the manpower and resources needed to exterminate them. Many Imperial forces were pulled from the eastern fringes to combat the Despoiler's 13th Crusade for example. The Imperium is prioritising, yet it is still failing. And on that topic the 13th Black Crusade saw the largest mobilisation of Imperial forces since the Heresy itself. This is exactly what their doing; "assigning priority to truly important targets." Yet that still resulted in a _'minor chaos victory'_.



Wusword77 said:


> The only issue of lasting importance is the Golden Throne, but we don't know what would happen if the Emperor actually died. For all we know his death could seal shut the webway gate below Terra forever and his power could be stored in the Astronomicon to power it forever. Or the flood gates could open and humanity could lose Terra forever.


Exactly, no one knows where the Emperor is concerned. And I mentioned that in my last post. 

However that is not the only issue of lasting importance, not by a long shot. Chaos for example. Not only did it cause the Heresy, the greatest civil war in Imperial History. But it is the reason why the Imperium stands as decadent as it is, and why the Imperium finds itself in such a dire situation. It is a constant threat that cannot be defeated, and apparently only the Emperor is preventing it's total victory.

Or how about the Great Devourer? Is that not a "situation of lasting importance"? I would certainly call it so, the Tyranids are enroaching from all sides. Thousands of worlds have already been devoured, and only the vanguard of the Hive Mind's forces have penetrated the galaxy thus far. 

Or what about the C'tan and their legions? Beings of immense power and ability with legions of undying servants with unsurpassable technology. Considering two C'tan have now awoken, and more and more tomb worlds are becoming active. Is that not an "issue of lasting importance"? The C'tan faced down the civilisation of the Old Ones, and you expect them not to be a "lasting issue" to a backward empire headed by a corpse?

Et Cetera.

The Imperium is in a much more dire situation that you admit, we are in the Time of Ending after all.


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

And this is why in the end the Orks will triumph, for from the apocalypse of bloodshed and countless battles the Great Kroosade of the WAAAGH! will rise from the ashes of the other "civilized" races, smashing aside their remnants as they were naught but a testicle hanging by a thread. The Eldar will fall beneath the endless wave after wave of Orkish might, the Imperium too weak from their multiple wounds to prevent the Ork's own furious hammer blows and the various alien empires such as the Tau too small to withstand the impending armageddon. 

Well....that is until the Necrons all wake up...


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

I got into an argument with my friend today that the Imperium is failing but his only argument was that The Emperor is awesome and Chaos can suck deez nuts.

I tried explaining everything I have learned from this forum but I couldn't get him to listen. But then I started thinking, "Is the Imperium really screwed?"

Now even if you are a pro Chaos/Anti Imperium I want you to honestly think through all the possibilities. Obviously Chaos can never be destroyed but could humanity survive? Could they?

What are the different outcomes of the Emperor returning? I don't think I am familiar with them all and I don't understand them too much to, well, understand them well.

For the time being I am trying to be pro-Imperium so I can see if there really is hope. I can't make heads or tails.

And of course there are many different consiquences of joining Chaos (spawnhood, just being cast aside, etc) but are there any consequences of joining Chaos outside of Chaos itself? What I mean by that is If the Emperor came back would there be any "penalties" for joining Chaos? I don't think there would be but can't hurt to ask. 
(I find that by asking instead of knowing, you tend to learn more)


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Your friend sounds like a fanboy, and an ignorant one at that. :laugh: 

Everything that needs to be covered has already been covered by either CotE or someone else, so there`s no point in repeating myself. Instead I`ll say this: 

Chaos can be stopped; assuming the necrons can complete their Great Work. 

The necrons can be stopped; assuming the young races can unite. Or assuming Chaos wins. 

The tyranids can be stopped; assuming the galaxy`s inhabitants can unite. 

These are the three biggest threats and what needs to be done to stop them. But how likely is it that these parameters will be met? And in time?


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

I don't mean to rain on everyone's "wall-of-text" parade, but it's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Imperium's gonna be fine.
Human's gonna psychic the crap out of erry'one.
They have space marines.
They'll team up with chaos space marines, take over the galaxy and it'll be just like the good old days.

You saw it here first.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Weapon said:


> I don't mean to rain on everyone's "wall-of-text" parade, but it's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
> 
> Imperium's gonna be fine.
> Human's gonna psychic the crap out of erry'one.
> ...


That's great.

But it would be nice to see if you could justify your conclusions.


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> That's great.
> 
> But it would be nice to see if you could justify your conclusions.


I respectfully decline.


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

Weapon said:


> I don't mean to rain on everyone's "wall-of-text" parade, but it's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
> 
> Imperium's gonna be fine.
> Human's gonna psychic the crap out of erry'one.
> ...


Wait wait wait! Did you just say they'll TEAM up with Chaos Space Marines? That's just as bloody likely as Orks becoming space hippies and start a new culture of pacificism, or the Lux crazy stories being canon. 

Chaos is probably the number one priority on the Imperium's Gonna Kill List, with even xenos being lower on the scale than them. Traitors and heretics are intolerable by any standards and are immediate kill on sight unless your a heretic yourself and at least a radical inquisitor. The Imperium as a whole would never willingly ally with them(*cough* *cough* Daemonhunters and Grey Knights) , and even if they did it wouldn't even make that much of a difference. 

And in terms of psychic powering the crap out of everybody, you do know only a relatively small portion of the Imperium has significant psychic powers right? And by your logic then why hasn't the Imperium closed the rift of the EoT then with their uber psychic powers or overwhelmed the Hive Mind with it either? 

The fact that you actually declined to say why you believe this just shows that either your just trolling or plain ignorant.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Weapon said:


> I respectfully decline.


Not to sound like an asshole, but why do you even bother posting then? You're not going to convince anyone of your opinion and, like Grimskul25 said before me, it's just gonna make you look ignorant or like you're trolling.


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## Scholtae (Aug 16, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Depends entirely on how you define _"powerful"_. You said yourself they cannot bring their entire armed forces to bear on a single opponent so it's neither here nor there . Does humanity outnumber the Greenskins? The Tyranids? Unlikely. Do they have the most stable regime in the galaxy? Most likely not. The best technology or most advanced technological development rate? Nope.
> 
> The Imperium is *probably* the largest galactic empire. But it is decadent, backwards, hypocritical, besieged on all sides, lacking in anything progressive in terms of technology, politics, philosophy etc, and is dependent entirely on a single individual.
> 
> ...


Ahh now we get down to it, the nature of chaos is change so though the chaos gods may at first follow the line you suggest their very nature makes them wholly changable so humanity may end up being consumed on a whim which if this galaxy is merged with the warp could easily be achieved. Even if the other three aren't quite as guilty of this self destructive spirit tzeench at least, embodying change does not allow for constants as evidenced by the destruction of his staff. The choice the imperium is faced with seems to be either chaos or stagnation. While the emperor was alive the imperium had drive and purpose. Now that he is gone but not quite the imperium has become his reflection, a rotting carcass. What the imperium needs is controlled change steadily shifting away from the stasis of the emperor and the hidebound tradition of the mechanicum but not straying into the self destructive slavery of chaos. The emperor needs to either reincarnate or die. either would be ultimately beneficial. Even if he does die his most crucial poject must be completed. humanity cannot afford to be reliant on warp travel subject to the whims of chaos the human webway on terra must be completed or an altenate method of travel found or the imperium for all it's military might is doomed.


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## Sangriento (Dec 1, 2010)

one thing we arent considering here is that the current SM chapters exist, not because more cannot be made, but because that wouldnt be safe. 

the Codex was created so no single organization had enough force to deliver a fatal blow to the Imperium if they went renegade or traitor.

that explains why it isnt the smartest decition, but nowhere it says it cannot be done. I tend to think the Imperium still has the means to produce more SMs, but they are purposedly holding themselves off to product manageable/safe numbers.

so i guess if it was obvious that shit has finally hit the fan and extintion is upon us, the Imperium could take a final gamble and double, triple or even tenfold the production of SMs and flood the galaxy with their super armies once again, then pray that more new marines turn out to be loyal rather than traitor.

Also bear in mind that SMs arent likely at all to ally with Necrons, Nids, Eldar or Tau, so maybe the surpluss could be used in that campaigns, unrelated to dealing with Chaos, minimizing the new force's exposition to corruption.... 


best case scenario that would help holding necrons, eldars, tau and nids at bay for a loooong time. 
worst case scenario they were already screwed anyway.


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