# Who was onboard the Vengeful Spirit at the end?



## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

They have never really said who it was that Horus killed that made the Emperor see that his son could not be saved. I am betting it is Loken. It seems fitting. The way that the books are going with Malcador assembling "the most loyal" marines seems to point in that direction. They would be the ones to teleport up for the final fight. I know most people think that Garro and company are the beginning of the Grey Knights, and that may be true. But it would be Epic if the Grey Knights were really formed in the wake of Horus's death and the Emperor receiving near mortal wounds.

At first I thought that Garro was only going to recruit loyalist from traitor legions. You can't get more loyal to the Emperor than defying your Primarch. I could have seen Loken, Saul, and Garro up on the Vengefull spirit at the end, followed by whatever main char loyalist from traitor Legions that have not yet been written. But they have thrown an Ultramarine into the mix so I guess that theory is blown.

Anyhow, any thoughts on whose death pushes the Emperor to saying "ok, that's enough", and nuking Horus.

A side not, I wonder why the Khan didn't go up with the Dorn and Sang. I am betting it is because he was busy defending the Space Port that he took from the traitors. From the existing lore it seems like the Palace would have been over run if the Khan hadn't worked his magic. Still, having a 3rd Primarch up there would have helped a lot.

Which makes you think, why didn't Horus beam up some of his brothers? Mort, Angron, Fulgrim, Magnus, and Lorgar we know were all on Terra. The Emp. is powerful but fighting off 5 Primarchs (one of which is now a Daemon Prince) probably would not go in his favor.

Where were Corax and Vulkan too? Not to mention the bulk of the Iron Hands Legion. Manus only took his best troops to I5, what were the other 90 percent doing during the HH?


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## aerogems (May 16, 2013)

I always thought it was when he killed Sanguinius (I'm sure I'm butchering that spelling). Think that's why he decides that he doesn't need to just kill him, but obliterate his soul.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Yeah, it was Sanguinius that Horus killed. By that point, Horus had the blessing of not just one, but all four chaos gods. That made him the equal of the Emperor and so he didn't need to call up any of his brothers that were down on the surface. Not like they would have answered anyway, most of them were off doing their own things.

As for the Emp having an extra primarch, I don't think it would've mattered. Sanguinius was dead, and Dorn was teleported elsewhere on the ship. Having the Khan along wouldn't have mattered a bit IMHO.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

I could see that, but Sang (I call him Sang because I don't want to even try spell it or look it up lol) was dead when the Emp. entered the room. There are different versions of the final battle, but all of them have Horus showing someone the broken body of the Emperor and Horus killing him when he charges.

That's when the Emp. knows he has to not only kill Horus, but destroy his soul.

In some versions of the final battle Sang does put a nitch in Horus's armor, and that nitch is what the Emp uses to destroy Horus.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Oh you're talking about the bit with someone jumping in front of Horus's final blow. Yeah, no one knows who that guy is. 

Lexicanum says it was a lone Custodes that entered the room, and Horus flayed him alive making the Emperor realize how far his son had fallen. It also says that other reports state is was Ollanius Pius, a guardsman, that sacrificed himself for the Emperor. Until the HH book comes out that detail the battle, we'll never know for sure.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Ollanius Person, from Legion, Know No Fear and later, Betrayer, IIRC, likely.

He's a perpetual, meaning that it takes some alien parliament to decide not to be reborn; the amount of effort gone into explaining the Perpetual's length of life/rebirth/Sensei theorem throwback is one of the big things in recent books.

This suggests something like a "lowly human" standing in front of a Primarch, and presumably having his Soul flayed in such a manner as to not be reborn seems almost uncanny, and an otherwise wasted opportunity.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

I think the least likely would be the IG. While a nice story, it does not make any sense. If you are teleporting up to the Vengefull Spirit to do battle with the embodiment of Chaos and the prize is the Galaxy... the people you are taking will all be eating at the adult table. Choosing primarchs, astartes, and custodes makes sense, but picking a IG is like saying to my 5 year old niece "ok, it may get ugly when we go to the inner city, but you got my back right?", when I could have just as easily have taken Arnold S.

What version did you read with the nameless guy blocking the blow? Every version I have read is with Horus getting his rocks off by displaying the broken Emp. to whoever it is that is charging him. After Horus flays him he turns his attention back on the Emp only to find a whole can of whoop ass coming his way.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Ollanius Person, from Legion, Know No Fear and later, Betrayer, IIRC, likely.
> 
> He's a perpetual, meaning that it takes some alien parliament to decide not to be reborn; the amount of effort gone into explaining the Perpetual's length of life/rebirth/Sensei theorem throwback is one of the big things in recent books.
> 
> This suggests something like a "lowly human" standing in front of a Primarch, and presumably having his Soul flayed in such a manner as to not be reborn seems almost uncanny, and an otherwise wasted opportunity.


Oh good God, I hope you are wrong. I can not stand Abnett's writing (outside of 'Horus Rising"). I am sick of this Gramaticus thing. I love Aaron's writing but him using Abnett's char. Gramaticus is like humoring the retarded kid that he isn't retarded. Please, oh please tell me that the father of stupid writing does not have a say in the final battle.

If they are going to go along that story line I wish Aaron would have kept Cyrene dead (I am guessing she is not really dead again from 'Betrayer'). She died with some dignity (the first time), good for her. There is no dignity in the horrid writing Abnett scrawls, just greater and lesser extents of stupid. Her becoming a 'perpetual' is assanine which is where I am guessing they are going after 'Betrayer'.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Actually Ollanius had a knife that could cut through the fabric of reality. He picked it up on Calth during the latter stages of the assault, before the Word Bearers made the sun go supernova. Essentially, he can go where ever he would damn well please with that thing. I'm with Vaz on this one. He was talking about the Emperor being in danger, so it would seem the logical thing, but as I said before, we'll never know until the book comes out. Who knows, maybe a custode will be flayed by Horus, and Ollanius will jump in the way of Horus's death blow to the emperor after said custode is flayed, giving the emperor a chance to get up and destroy Horus. I'd like to see that happen. I think it would be epic. 

EDIT: Also, theres an edit button. No need to make two posts when you can edit the first. Right at the bottom right corner, just so you know. Also, Ollanius is a different perpetual than Grammaticus if thats what you were trying to get at in your second post. It is confirmed in Know No Fear when one Grammaticus himself appears to Ollanius when Ollanius is knocked unconscious.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

The Perpetual idea is one of the most interesting and refreshing ideas I've seen in the Heresy. It was a joy to read in _Legion_ and I liked its return in _Know No Fear_. All I can say is that I don't think BL would've let Abnett get away with it if he has no firm idea of bringing this story line to a close. At least, I hope not.

Personally, I'd like this individual to be either a Custodian or Persson - a Perpetual who somehow reached Terra and was included in the Emperor's beasting party on the Vengeful Spirit, not an errant Army soldier with no right being there.

We'll just have to see. All I'm bothered about is the execution. No cheese-fests for such a crucial juncture in the story. And that includes Sanguinius opening a ***** in Horus' armour - that, to me, always felt like a rumour created by the masses in their veneration of Sanguinius' sacrifice. Like Achilles being shot in the ankle by an arrow.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

There is no other reason to bring Pious back into the story arc if it wasn't to be that guy. There have been hints that he didn't get along with the Emperor during their time together, and hopefully they use this to explore more of the early days of the Emperor's rise to power. It would also make it kind of ironic that the death of someone with no apparent loyalty to the
Emperor is the one that lets him see just how far Horus has fallen.


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## theurge33 (Apr 4, 2012)

Plus Pious has the vision of being on the Vengeful Spirit during the final battle and Horus turning his attention to him. I think that is some pretty clear foreshadowing right there..

Perhaps they flesh out the relationship between the Emp and these perpetuals in future books...there could end up being some strong history over that 40k + years of relationship that could make the death very significant...even moreso that Sanguinius in those final moments.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm not even going to begin on your views of Abnett other than that I utterly disagree with you.

It's going to be Ollanius without a doubt. From the moment he was revealed in _Know No Fear_, I was convinced as much, never mind the vision he receives from John of being in the Throne Room. Him having a shard of Erebus that allows him to quite literall year through time and reality provides an easy way to get him onto the _Vengeful Spirit_.

As for the Khan, when the end was drawing near in the Seige, a sky fortress picked Dorn up and took him to the Palace where Sanguinius already was, then tried to pick the Khan up as well but was shot down, destroying a huge amount of traitors when it crashed however. That's why the Khan wasn't and couldn't be present.

As for Loken and the others. Evrything, including the newest short stories are indicating more and more that they well be the Grey Knights, it's almost beyond any doubt now. And according to the lore, they all get taken by Malcador to Titan before the end of the Seige.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

*@the guy who hates Abnett's writing*:

I totally disagree. His prose is several notches above that of most other BL authours. I find some of his work to be superior to some of Aaron's. They're both very good. Chris Wraight is also excellent most of the time. 



DeathJester921 said:


> Oh you're talking about the bit with someone jumping in front of Horus's final blow. Yeah, no one knows who that guy is.
> 
> Lexicanum says it was a lone Custodes that entered the room, and Horus flayed him alive making the Emperor realize how far his son had fallen. It also says that other reports state is was Ollanius Pius, a guardsman, that sacrificed himself for the Emperor. Until the HH book comes out that detail the battle, we'll never know for sure.


Oh dear...could it have been both? Valdor and Pius both destroyed by Chaos-fueled Horus



bobss said:


> The Perpetual idea is one of the most interesting and refreshing ideas I've seen in the Heresy. It was a joy to read in _Legion_ and I liked its return in _Know No Fear_. All I can say is that I don't think BL would've let Abnett get away with it if he has no firm idea of bringing this story line to a close. At least, I hope not.


Yes, the Perpetual concept breathes some new life into the setting. I'm a big fan of it



> No cheese-fests for such a crucial juncture in the story. And that includes Sanguinius opening a ***** in Horus' armour


That sounds fine to me...dunno why you'd classify that as a cheesy


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Out of the 2 I would prefer it to be Pius.

Even though he is now a perpetual and not a regular human anymore the idea of a (near) normal bloke standing up to what is one of the most evil beings in the galaxy, despite knowing that his chances are nearly slim to nothing cries out huge balls right there.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I imagine this plays a large part in the decision to him not seeing eye to eye with the Emperor and having known him for a very, very long time, even being the same sort of being, or at least implied anyway. So now we have someone the Emperor has known for tens of thousands of years, potentially his entire life, is one of the same rare breed as himself, one of the few left in the galaxy, but most of all, doesn't like him, or at the least disagrees with him and doesn't see eye to eye or share the same ideologies. And yet, here he is, in what is very likely to be the last moments of the Emperors life, appearing against all odds and expectations, and despite all of their differences, Ollanius throws himself at Horus to defend the Emperor, and then gets obliterated for his efforts. Pretty compelling sight for the Emperor to see how far Horus has gone, in my opinion anyway.


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

1) Little spoiler for what ahead - it would be 2 persons - Valdor and Ollanius. Valdor as a physic manifestation of humanity will (would be obliterated by Horus) and Ollanius watching this, as a spirit manifestation of humanity undying strength of will (would be simply dispersed to Warp). You will remember my words, when the Siege of Terra novel will come out. 
2) Chondax is soo awesome right now - i was able to read 3 pages as a gift from C.Wright and i could tell you - seems our best wishes for Chondax WS and SW vs AL are coming true.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

And you got these spoilers about Valdor and Ollanius from where exactly? I doubt the writers themselves even know exactly what they're going to do regarding the end, and I highly doubt they would tell anyone.

A d Wraight gave you three chapters? Three chapters of a novel which hasn't even been announced yet. And be have you these as a gift...why? No offence but I don't really believe you. Even if it was true, would be pretty disrespectful towards Wraight to reveal anything about his novel that he gave you(but again I just doubt it very much).


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

Angel of Blood - 1) read more closely - 3 pages is not 3 chapters, and its not even a preedited completed draft, and yes people who are blogging and speaking with authors too much every day via blogs, twitters and facebooks sometimes gets a present for being a good fan. 
2) 'would be pretty disrespectful towards Wraight to reveal anything about his novel that he gave you' - i have given nothing to you, where do you see spoilers - that it is awesome? Iam not telling you names? locations, or ships, or dates?
3) You british sometimes are soo rude - and i dont need to prove you anything. You could ignore my comments, if you want - anyway in the future, if you have a good memory, you will remember that i was right.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

My mistake of the chapter/page quote, nor did you mention though that it was a completed, edited draft. Regardless, I'm still more interested on where you got this apparent info on Valdor and Ollanius. Again this event is still years and years away, it's still a long time away from being written if even having an author assigned to it. And yes, authors may give little nuggets out to dedicated fans, but that is a huge event, a collossal spoiler, not just that it's a Custode as well as Ollanius, but that the Custode is Valdor himself. Are you honestly surprised that I doubt the authenticity if this? People always want proof, I always provide proof to my quotes, theories etc. It's what sets us apart from Lux and the other crazies.

And like I said, no offence was intended, do you want me to sugar coat the fact that I doubted the authenticity of these spoilers? Because I just don't do that, nor do most on Hersey.

But I guarantee you, I won't be the only one questioning this Valdor/Ollanius gen, or want proof. Because that isn't a tiny spoiler, a hint, little nugget of gen etc, that's huge, massive, defining event and spoiler.


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

Ok it was hinted at BL live 2013 

by Dan - citing "And yes 1 famous, genechanced son of his will be shining gloriously at the Vengeful Spirit deck. when the time comes. ...Ollanius - yeah he is a watcher or more, cant say =)'
At BL Weekender 2012 by some of the editors stuff - The physical manifestation (who defended his father all this years in his cradle, and spirit of humanity - this too will distract Horus and will pay the ultimate price)


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

Also i was thinking and remember that Graham McNeil once said that it would be not the first time that Ollanius visited the Vengeful spirit =) And he said that Custodes know the layout of Horus flagship very well.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

It's painful to read your gibberish sometimes.

Scratch that. Always.


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

Vaz - long time no seen :victory:. Havent miss you for a bit, you rude bastard:laugh:


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## Sequere_me_in_Tenebras (Nov 11, 2012)

Prospero Burns is a fine example of how good Dan Abnett's prose can be.

Perhaps Perrson's (spelt wrong) vision is a edifice of what might be - who knows? The writers... maybe.


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