# Star trek vs the Imperium of man.



## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Yes it's one of those threads. :biggrin:


I got to thinking recently what a war between the Imperium and the star trek universe would be.


For this war Here's the layout.

The federation
Klingon empire
Romulan empire
cardassian dominion alliance.

vs

The imperium

Weapons and tech and territory.

I'm not going to research this in depth as I don't want to look through that much information.

Weapons.

Federation has three types of phaser's infantry varity.

Ship mounted phasers pulse cannons and photon torpedos.

Klingons have disrupters (ship and infantry) and torpedos as do the romulans and cardassians The dominion uses phased polaron weaponry ship and infantry. 

We'll assume that on max setting class one phasers need time to pierce astartes armor. Or lots concertrating fire.

Class two phasers we'll assume that it only takes two to pierce astartes armor.

Class three (phaser rifles) Since they are more powerful we'll assume that they can pierce astartes without the need to concentrate fire.

Disruptor's are more powerful so we'll assume they fall between class two and three.

phased polaron rifles are class three.


Ship phasers disrupters we'll assume are equal to heavy gauss fire.

photon torpedoes are better than plasma cannons.

transporters 

Ships

We'll assume that the fed alliance ships are faster in tactical but strat moving to going to be slow.


Planets 


We'll say 150 each with the cardassians sharing some.



That's all for the tech we all know 40K so I won't list it here.


What I think would happen.

The transporter really goes give the alliance a slight advantage being able to place troops or explosives in strategic places is going to be invaluable. Anti matter weapons and power gives them speed for maneuvers but warp travel is slow compared to 40Kwarp however it does give the advantage of knowing you're going to get there.

The dominion's construction of ships and being able to have ground troops ready in three days is invaluable as well.


So during the early stages of the war the alliance is going to have trouble with the ships due to the size, however the nature of their weapons means that they aren't going to be helpless.

on the ground their weapons are going to be superior to IG lasgun hellguns and hotshot rifles might be the same but the sheer numbers of ig plus CAS and armor not to mention astartes means they are going to lose allot of ground.

I won't say that defense is impossible since they do have transporter tech meaning explosives or a strike team can take out stockpiles of shells and cripple positions maybe even kill the general.

Against astartes this is going to be a problem while their weapons are decent bolters and power armor not to mention decades of combat experience is going to be huge for them.


The x factor.

There's so many other things to consider, for example the genesis device probably won't be used by the federation but the right commander might try and have one built.

Then there's trilithum weapons and tri cobalt they aren't common but the first one can scorch a solar system and the second powerful as well.
However the fact remains that the federation won't ever be able to match the imperium in ground troops. unless they started getting rid of some morals and started genetically altering their soldiers all they can do is raids. a defense is possible but only in the right circumstances.


That's all I have, I tried to cover as much as possible but TBH This is just to keep me occupied while I wait for steam to unlock space marine.

discuss.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

This is easy. The Federation have no Gellar Fields. Whatever time-travel anomaly landed them in the 41st millennium also doomed them: their first FTL foray will lead to their souls being eaten and raped. At the same time.

In all seriousness, though...

Star Trek vessels have a limited number of weapons. In many ways they are more advanced (almost omni-directional beam weapons, guided projectiles), but in other aspects they suffer disadvantages. For instance, the beam weapons are directly tied to the vessel's power source. By contrast, Imperium weaponry is often fixed in terms of firing angles... but, on the plus side, they are often compartmentalized and not dependent on the rest of the vessel (think weapon batteries). Furthermore, there are so many of them that they don't need to be omnidirectional. A Star Trek warship might thus be far more agile and maneuverable, but to close in on an Imperium vessel it would have to go through an incredible field of fire.

The biggest deciding factor, though, is range. Star Trek battles occur in ranges that are ludicrously close by 40k standards. In 40k, naval engagements are fought at ranges of literally _hundreds of thousands of kilometers._ Even the greater (I'm assuming) non-Warp speeds of Star Trek vessels wouldn't do them any good there. The amount of firepower they'd have to go through would ruin them.

Imperial vessels also would seem to be far more capable of sustaining damage. Most Star Trek ships are only several hundred meters long. Most Imperial classes of starships are several kilometers long.

Transporters are good, but not infallible. There often seem to be problems that equate to what the Imperium has to deal with. Furthermore, they are only capable to transporting a certain amount of individuals. And most of those individuals are often unarmored or lightly armed and armored at best.

Finally, there's the whole psychology thing. Klingons are the only real Star Trek warrior culture, and even they aren't a society of religiously fanatical xenophobes. When you start throwing in sociopathic, psycho-indoctrinated Astartes, things start getting crazy. Romulans and Cardassians would never be able to psychologically sustain the toll of total warfare against the Imperium.

Finally, even assuming no Ruinous Powers in the Warp, the Star Trek factions' can't even enjoy the advantage of strategic mobility. Remember, none of them have explored even a quarter of their galaxy. The whole point of "Voyager" was them not being able to get back home within their lifetime. Imperial vessels, by contrast, might get sidetracked and take months--even years to get from one end of the Imperium to the other... but the point is that they expect to be able to do so.

Cheers,
P.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Phoebus said:


> This is easy. The Federation have no Gellar Fields. Whatever time-travel anomaly landed them in the 41st millennium also doomed them: their first FTL foray will lead to their souls being eaten and raped. At the same time.


unless of course their warp drive works like the tau's


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

It was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. :wink:

Cheers,
P.


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## James Tiberius (Sep 1, 2011)

ahh, but the imperium has no picard, so its an auto lose situation for them


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## facelessone (Jan 18, 2010)

There would be alot of red shirts dead ....nids alone would kill them all...


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

don't know enough about star trek but star trek has never struck me as a very warlike powerful universe


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Phoebus said:


> This is easy. The Federation have no Gellar Fields. Whatever time-travel anomaly landed them in the 41st millennium also doomed them: their first FTL foray will lead to their souls being eaten and raped. At the same time.
> 
> In all seriousness, though...
> 
> ...


To me the Jem'hada are the closest to total war doctrine I can think of even more so than the klingons, and they can cloak and are combat ready in three days from birth. 

if a alliance ship had transwarp or quantom slip drive things might be different.



MontytheMighty said:


> don't know enough about star trek but star trek has never struck me as a very warlike powerful universe


Deep space nine is the closest to total war in the star trek universe.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

In the end, it really wouldn't matter how good the weapons from star trek are, or how decent their ships might be. I say this because ultimately no force in star trek could stand up to the Imperium of man, a galaxy spanning empire with tens of thousands of planets from which it can draw soldiers and weapons from.

Most Imperial Guard regiments number in the mid thousands (and 5000-6000 should be used as the general average for infantry regiment numbers because despite the fact that some may contain tens of thousands we also have some who only number in the hundreds.) Adding to that, many planets generally have dozens or even hundreds of regiments after thousands of years worth of foundings.

It would not be surprising for a world like Cadia to have in excess of eight hundred infantry regiments (thats infantry, not armoured regiments, or storm trooper regiments, or artillery regiments); and at about five thousand strong, in infantry alone your looking at four million soldiers, without the inclusion of armoured or elite support of any kind.


Now there are other such worlds throughout the Imperium, and low-balling things lets say that these planets have total armed forces numbering seven million. Can any of the chosen factions last in a war of attrition with those numbers? Can they do it when those numbers are backed up by the likes of a Segmentum fleet (which numbers at least one hundred capital ships of cruiser class or higher.)



Thats one of the things many of these versus threads seem to forget. The Imperium has manpower as a disposable resource, most of the groups they are compared to do not.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

When one of the Star Trek Universes largest ships is still smaller than the Imperium's escort classes then you know the Empire of Man has nothing to fear.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

darkreever said:


> In the end, it really wouldn't matter how good the weapons from star trek are, or how decent their ships might be. I say this because ultimately no force in star trek could stand up to the Imperium of man, a galaxy spanning empire with tens of thousands of planets from which it can draw soldiers and weapons from.
> 
> Most Imperial Guard regiments number in the mid thousands (and 5000-6000 should be used as the general average for infantry regiment numbers because despite the fact that some may contain tens of thousands we also have some who only number in the hundreds.) Adding to that, many planets generally have dozens or even hundreds of regiments after thousands of years worth of foundings.
> 
> ...


I did point out that Jem'hada are all clones and it takes only three days for them to grow.

Granted they can't match cadia but it could work.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Reaper45 said:


> I did point out that Jem'hada are all clones and it takes only three days for them to grow.
> 
> Granted they can't match cadia but it could work.


Cadia is not the only such planet that can muster such forces, and there are others out there which can bring even more than the assumed averaged I tossed out.

You can likely go with their being two or three per Segmentum, which gives you 10-15 worlds which can each bring a combined might of 7 million. Thats 70-100 million from those worlds alone in an empire with tens of thousands of planets to get even more millions of things from.


Yeah these Jem'hada might be able to create fighting clones in scant few days, but could they possibly keep up in the replacement of all their losses? Would they be able to keep up with re-arming and equipping them?


Because in the end, finite manpower and resources vs (relatively) infinite manpower and resources does not end well for group one.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I'd say Cadia isn't even indicative of the real manpower potential of the Imperium.

There are hive worlds with planets in the tens, even hundreds, of billions. Just imagine how much manpower and munitions they could pump out.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

As a person pretty knowledgeable of both sides, I'll give my bit:

Space vessels:

Combat ranges: Warhammer has an effective combat range in a couple-few tens of thousands of kilometers (to the best of my knowledge). Sometimes less.

Star Trek has shown effective combat ranges at 200,000+ kilometers. Closing within 40,000 kilometers was given as a deliberate short-ranged strategy to give as little time for an enemy to react as possible.

(Yeah, the SFX has the ships tossing shots at each other at 200 meters or less, but honestly, how cool is it to have ship firing at a ship so far away you can't see it? It's cooler to watch the shields light up and the explosions of the ship.)

Slower than light travel: Warhammer ships are rather ponderous. They take many days to reach a planet from the outer portions of a solar system.

Star Trek ships are incredibly nimble due to their non-Newtonian based engines. At the minimum, the Enterprise (a vessel about 150 years old from the "modern" time) was capable of at least an acceleration of 3460gs, as shown in Star Trek: The Motion Picture.

Faster than light: Warhammer's warp travel is a bit flaky. Crossing the galaxy can take a year or decades.

Star Trek: crossing the galaxy would take over a hundred years for a notably fast vessel. Warhammer vessels are faster, but they come with their own problems that Star Trek ships don't have to deal with (warpstorms preventing travel...and of course with daemons trying to eat their souls).

Conventional firepower: Warhammer vessels can devastate cities by themselves. Fleets can take out entire portions of the surface and wipe civilizations from orbit.

Star Trek: A relatively small fleet (40 ships, weighed against fleets with over 600 ships later) of powerful and moderately strong vessels were able to _vaporize_ significant portions of a planet's crust in a single salvo.

Power Generation: Warhammer vessels use plasma generators. So it's likely they use some sort of fusion to power their vessels.

Startrek: They use a combination of fusion generators to power certain systems, but their primary source of energy is derived from anti-matter. Pound for pound, Star Trek ships would very likely outgenerate their Warhammer counterparts.

All in all, it's likely that Star Trek vessels have a great advantage in STL battles. Both in effective weapon range, maneuverability, and, likely, firepower.

In terms of number of vessels, the IoM out numbers Star Trek by an enormous degree.

If the IoM is made up of 1million planets, with an average of 50 planets to a sector, whose fleet is somewhere between 50-75 vessels (as per the BFG rulebook), then the IoM probably numbers around ~1.3 million vessels.

In Star Trek, the Allied forces (Romulans, Klingons, and the Federation) were expected to fight the Dominion, Cardassian, and Breen forces who numbered 30,000 vessels. So the Allied forces probably numbered at least 10,000. Definitely no more than 40,000. Warhammer would outnumber ST by anywhere between 40-150 fold.

In conclusion, the one that would win would be...whoever had more plot armor. Really, these versus debates are silly .


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

hailene said:


> Combat ranges: Warhammer has an effective combat range in a couple-few tens of thousands of kilometers (to the best of my knowledge). Sometimes less.
> 
> Star Trek has shown effective combat ranges at 200,000+ kilometers. Closing within 40,000 kilometers was given as a deliberate short-ranged strategy to give as little time for an enemy to react as possible.
> 
> (Yeah, the SFX has the ships tossing shots at each other at 200 meters or less, but honestly, how cool is it to have ship firing at a ship so far away you can't see it? It's cooler to watch the shields light up and the explosions of the ship.)


I'll take your word for the Star Trek vessels (though I hesitate to ignore the visual evidence given by a predominately visual-medium series; it's almost like ignoring the written evidence of Warhammer 40k for the visual evidence of the "Dawn of War" PC games), but Warhammer 40k vessels have been repeatedly described as engaging one another at ranges of hundreds of thousands of kilometers.



> Faster than light: Warhammer's warp travel is a bit flaky. Crossing the galaxy can take a year or decades.
> 
> Star Trek: crossing the galaxy would take over a hundred years for a notably fast vessel. Warhammer vessels are faster, but they come with their own problems that Star Trek ships don't have to deal with (warpstorms preventing travel...and of course with daemons trying to eat their souls).


For the purposes of this discussion, I don't think one can apply the perils of the Warp to only one side. It either exists or it doesn't.

As for firepower... Meh. I have to side with Warhammer. Between virus bombs, cyclonic torpedoes, etc., even a single vessel can annihilate all life on a given planet... in a matter of seconds/minutes.

But ultimately, as with power generation, slower than light speeds, etc., I think what it really comes down to is this: Star Trek was designed by people who have an interest in the sciences and at least somewhat-realistic science. Warhammer 40k was developed by people who embraced themes like transposing WWI-style weapons and vehicles to a setting forty thousand years in the future... without any of the concern for reasons as to why (like Frank Herbert did in providing reasons for melee combat and conventional assassins in his own setting).



> In conclusion, the one that would win would be...whoever had more plot armor. Really, these versus debates are silly .


Agreed! Good words! 

Cheers,
P.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> I'll take your word for the Star Trek vessels (though I hesitate to ignore the visual evidence given by a predominately visual-medium series; it's almost like ignoring the written evidence of Warhammer 40k for the visual evidence of the "Dawn of War" PC games), but Warhammer 40k vessels have been repeatedly described as engaging one another at ranges of hundreds of thousands of kilometers.
> 
> Well, here's the thing. I'd rather take dialogue over SFX. I personally think dialogue is closer to the author's intent. Just like in Warhammer 40k I'd take dialogue over, say, coverart.
> 
> ...


Filler content: Space Marine comes out tomorrow! No co-op campaign makes me weep tears of blood.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

I think the best way to think of trekkies is as eldar vessels. The romulans and klingons have advanced stealth tech and ALL trek vessels are more manuverable. Add to that they have powerful weapons and you got yourself a whole fleet of eldar escorts.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Personally I can't see any race in the star trek universe being able to stomach the endless murdering they would have to do for decades on straight to even get the imperiums attention. After all they count casualties in planets not units or regiments, but entire worlds.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> Personally I can't see any race in the star trek universe being able to stomach the endless murdering they would have to do for decades on straight to even get the imperiums attention. After all they count casualties in planets not units or regiments, but entire worlds.


Borg or Dominion would probably do it. Both control significant portions of the galaxy. The Borg want to devour advanced intelligent species and the Dominion's leaders have a distinct hatred for solid lifeforms (they're liquid-ish shapeshifters).

Plus the IoM would have to destroy the Federation. They're humans actively cooperating with Xenos lifeforms. It's like the Interex all over again.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

darkreever said:


> Cadia is not the only such planet that can muster such forces, and there are others out there which can bring even more than the assumed averaged I tossed out.


I checked the numbers, Cadia has slightly more than 7 million troops there's actually 179 million on average (but it's a Fortress/Garrison World so that's not the normal level of recruitment).


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## Brother Emund (Apr 17, 2009)

Add to the mix the Titan Legions. Star Trek has nothing to compare!


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

borg vs tyranids vs necrons vs breen oh boy oh boy


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

would just like to add my 2 cents on common issues that crop up in vs. threads

1) If the Star Trek *movies* have ships engaging each other at a distance of a few hundred metres, and the *dialogue, novels, etc.* have ships engaging each other at a distance of 100,000+km, an *inconsistency* exists in the Star Trek media. 

If people acknowledge the existence of inconsistent depictions, they can either determine which depiction is the "primary" depiction or argue what effect any discrepancies may have on the outcome of the battle (for instance, the effective range of Star Trek vessels affects the likelihood of victory). 

2) Whether Star Trek FTL travel would function in the 40k universe...
I don't know the "science" behind Star Trek FTL travel. Is it based on a phenomenon like hyperspace? If it is, then hyperspace may not exist in 40k. Furthermore, the Eldar and humanity during the Dark Age of Tech both relied on the Warp for travel. The Eldar "tamed" the Warp by creating the Webway. I think if there were less dangerous methods of travel, these advanced races would have used it rather than Warp travel. 

As I understand, the Tau also use the Warp but lack navigators. Not sure how the Necrons teleport. I don't think it's a given that Star Trek FTL travel would function in 40k.


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

And imperiums ships are not ponderous.

Perhaps not as fast as star trek boats.
But in system transportations take only a matter of hours IIRC (source: rouge trader. Rpg.)

And there is always one thing that will make me see how this struggle will go.

I remember the series, only a bit.
Voyager (whom i know is a science ship, trust me, a nerdy friend whom like star trek will never stop reminding me of all the facts if one accidentally mentions star trek.)
goes through space.

Oh no, a birdlike thing attacks, it's an ENEMY!!!

Oh no it fires its gun, PEW!!! Oh no, our shields are at 2% *panic*

Voyager counters with its own gun PEW!!! *fizzle*
Then the rest of the battle is solved with the deflector shield or by running away or a lengthy 2 episode parley.

Now insert a standard 40k cruiser.

Voyager shoots its gun, cruiser void shields doesn't even notice the energy discharge.

Counter with secondary gun batteries.
If anything is left of voyager by now, i'd be surprised.

But then there is the main batteries, all the anti-aircraft guns, torpedoes (aren't theese almost the size of voyagers engines?) and fighters..... whom are slightly smaller than thunderhawks and sports LOTS of lascannons/missiles.

I just can't see star trek winning a single fleet engagement at all.

Since even 40k transports have macro gun batteries.


Oh and on manpower, just a note.
Krieg.
Hive worlds.
Mechanicus. (They've got loads of dudes too.)
Krieg.


On the question of necrons, they have their own little alternate universe they travel in.
The green one.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> would just like to add my 2 cents on common issues that crop up in vs. threads
> 
> 1) If the Star Trek *movies* have ships engaging each other at a distance of a few hundred metres, and the *dialogue, novels, etc.* have ships engaging each other at a distance of 100,000+km, an *inconsistency* exists in the Star Trek media.
> 
> ...


It's the rule of cool. As I said earlier, if you have ships fighting at their stated distances, on screen you'd just have a ship on screen firing shots at (what appears to be) blank space. Fleet battles would look very unimpressive since you could only see one ship at a time firing at seemingly nothing.

Or you could cram a bunch of ships near each other and have them duke it out. Which do you think would sell better?

Anywho, FTL in Star Trek works like this: They generate a warp field that allows them to accelerate pass the speed of light. It doesn't require any alternate dimension to allow them to travel faster than light, but it's rather a product of physics that we currently do not understand (understandable since it's all fiction ).

And I don't think the Eldar "tamed" the Warp. They knew the dangers of traveling within it (particularly since, relative to humans, their souls are both extra bright and extra tasty to the denizens of the warp) and went, "meh, screw it, we're using the webway". Plus during the DAoT the Eldar were more interested in their freaky sex parties than anything else.

Plus the Webway has its advantages over Warp travel. You get to a place instantly.

Also, you can't compare one science fiction universe's tech to another like that <_<. At STL, Star Trek ships use a mass-lightening system that allows them to reach significant fractions of light instantly. Or reliable transporters that don't 1. throw you into the warp (like warp spiders) or 2. have a chance of you ending up as part of that bulkhead over there. Or replicator technology that essentially allows you to make anything from anything else, instantly. The Eldar and Humanity at their peak couldn't duplicate any of these feats. Does this mean the Federation are superior to both DAoT humanity and Eldar? No, just simply that, for dramatic or setting purposes, some technology is allowed to exist in one universe.

Plus the Necron don't teleport for their FTL travel. They simply accelerate past the speed of light by some unknown mechanism. Maybe they use warp fields or something .


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Ouh... So this is one of *those* threads...? 

Star Trek goes down.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I know nothing about Star Trek other than "Beam me up Scotty" and yet I know without an iota of a doubt that they stand no chance against the Imperium.

No fictional universe can.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

hailene said:


> It's the rule of cool...Maybe they use warp fields or something .


I prefer separating the movie-verse from the expanded universe
movies tend to be watered down compared to novels, comics, etc. 

From what you're saying, it sounds like even the films are internally inconsistent. In the films, does dialogue imply that ships have a range of several hundred thousand km yet almost all the space battles occur with ships only a few hundred metres apart from each other? 

Back to the topic of FTL travel, I thought that the Eldar Webway consisted of safe passageways tunneling through the Warp. That is, I thought the Webway still relied on the Warp. 

Of course, there's Necron FTL travel (seems unrelated to the Warp) and Tyranid FTL travel (confirmed as unrelated to the Warp, I think) but none of those methods of FTL travel seem much faster than Warp travel.

This suggests to me that the fictional physics that enable Star Trek vessels to achieve FTL speed may not exist in the 40k universe. Sort of like how I doubt the Warp exists in the Star Trek universe. 

For the sake of an interesting thread, we should just assume the battle takes place in a universe where both 40k's Warp and Star Trek's FTL physics exist.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> I prefer separating the movie-verse from the expanded universe
> movies tend to be watered down compared to novels, comics, etc.
> 
> From what you're saying, it sounds like even the films are internally inconsistent. In the films, does dialogue imply that ships have a range of several hundred thousand km yet almost all the space battles occur with ships only a few hundred metres apart from each other?
> ...


Well, I'm speaking strictly canon sources--TV episodes and movies. If you'd like, you could have both. Sometimes ships fight at extremely close ranges (under 500 meters). In one episode, a Federation fleet closes extra close with a larger fleet to reduce the enemy's ability to have the enemy fleet to focus their fire. As I said earlier, there has been at least one reason given for closing with an enemy.

Plus, just because a sniper rifle can kill an enemy at 2000 meters doesn't mean that it can't kill someone at 2 meters. 

I'm not too keen on my Eldar fluff, but pretty sure it just skips the warp entirely. The Eldar don't like the warp 'cause of daemons and Slanny in particular. 

Necron vessels have been stated to simply accelerate out of sensor range. That's why they can appear near a planet without warning since they don't have to drop out of warp outside a solar system's gravity.

Anywho, as I said, I just assumed that each side had to deal with their pros and cons as normal.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Doelago said:


> Ouh... So this is one of *those* threads...?
> 
> Star Trek goes down.


Heh, I needed something to do while waiting for space marine to be released.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

hailene said:


> Anywho, FTL in Star Trek works like this: They generate a warp field ...


So it's a reverse Gellar Field? It _surrounds_ them with the Warp?

_"It doesn't matter how fast we go! The demon-things are at a constant pace with us! AaaarghAGDfywgfubwfnkln!!!!"_

Man, they're fucked! :biggrin:

Kidding!

Cheers,
P.


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## Black Steel Feathers (Aug 17, 2011)

As well as the reasons stated above, let me add these weapons to the Imperium's vast armoury:
Psykers. 
Daemonhosts.
Grey Knights.
Marneus Calgar. (sp?)
Living Saints.
Religious Looninosity.
And has anyone mentioned THE EMPRAH?

To quote the song- it's worse than that, he's dead, Jim.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

hailene said:


> Plus, just because a sniper rifle can kill an enemy at 2000 meters doesn't mean that it can't kill someone at 2 meters.


It's not about whether a long range gun could hit a near target, it's about how difficult it would be to get that close to an enemy ship whose effective firing range is 500,000km.

If the vast majority of Star Trek space battles take place within a radius of 5km and the ships are supposed to have an effective range of 500,000km, I would call that an inconsistency unless a common tactic is to sneak up on enemy vessels. If Star Trek vessels generally have powerful sensors, I don't think short range battles should be very common.


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

Black Steel Feathers said:


> As well as the reasons stated above, let me add these weapons to the Imperium's vast armoury:
> Psykers.
> Daemonhosts.
> Grey Knights.
> ...


Have to break it to you, but only the psykers, the religious loonosity and indirectly the emperor would prove any useful in a space battle.

And the "generate awarp field around the ship" priceless


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

> And I don't think the Eldar "tamed" the Warp. They knew the dangers of traveling within it (particularly since, relative to humans, their souls are both extra bright and extra tasty to the denizens of the warp) and went, "meh, screw it, we're using the webway". Plus during the DAoT the Eldar were more interested in their freaky sex parties than anything else.


The webway IS the warp. Just shielded. The best way to think about it is really a system of tunnels under the ocean. Outside the tunnels there are currents everywhere and you have to generate strong momentum with careful control to stay on course. INSIDE the tunnels there is no resistance so you can go faster but you can only leave them at certain points. But now thanks to chaos and the loss of the old ones the webway is falling apart and no one knows how to repair it. Little bits of warp influence are leaking into the system and so the Eldar are slowly sealing off different sections that are completely flooded by the warp.

The dark eldar tried to hide from the birth of slaneesh in the webway and so they only got seriously F-ed up instead of being instantly killed with souls seized by slaneesh. (The craftworld eldar were in realspace and halfway across the galaxy which is why they survived)


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> It's not about whether a long range gun could hit a near target, it's about how difficult it would be to get that close to an enemy ship whose effective firing range is 500,000km.
> 
> If the vast majority of Star Trek space battles take place within a radius of 5km and the ships are supposed to have an effective range of 500,000km, I would call that an inconsistency unless a common tactic is to sneak up on enemy vessels. If Star Trek vessels generally have powerful sensors, I don't think short range battles should be very common.


If you're unwilling to reconcile the differences between dialogue and SFX then that's up to you. I'll just say this: The pictures in the BFG rulebook depict combat at similar ranges.

It's just not interesting to watch a single ship within a fleet to shoot at some ship we can't see. Plus dealing with limited budgets, time constraints, and the limited SFX capabilities of the time, I wouldn't put too much stock in drawing a literal interpretation of SFX. Up until the Voyager era almost every ship was an actual model. And not all the models were built to the same scale. It led to some...interesting scenes.



Samules said:


> The webway IS the warp. Just shielded. The best way to think about it is really a system of tunnels under the ocean. Outside the tunnels there are currents everywhere and you have to generate strong momentum with careful control to stay on course. INSIDE the tunnels there is no resistance so you can go faster but you can only leave them at certain points. But now thanks to chaos and the loss of the old ones the webway is falling apart and no one knows how to repair it. Little bits of warp influence are leaking into the system and so the Eldar are slowly sealing off different sections that are completely flooded by the warp.
> 
> The dark eldar tried to hide from the birth of slaneesh in the webway and so they only got seriously F-ed up instead of being instantly killed with souls seized by slaneesh. (The craftworld eldar were in realspace and halfway across the galaxy which is why they survived)


I hate you. I had to look up Eldar fluff and I hate Eldar fluff.

First, the webway isn't part of the warp, as I said. From the DE codex, "[The webway] has been described as an incredibly complex network of arteries and capillaries, a maze of glowing tunnels, and a mystic tapestry of hidden threads that spread across the veil *between realspace and the Warp*...It is defined by the fact it sits between the material realm and the roiling tides of the Warp..."

It later goes on to say, "The webway wass created by an ancient race called the Old Ones as a conduit that allowed its masters to travel at will to countless far-flung worlds *without risking the fickle tides of the Warp*.

In short, no, it's not part of the warp. It's not in the warp. It's completely separated from the warp. 

Now I must go stab my eyes out. Gahhh...Eldar fluff.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

hailene said:


> If you're unwilling to reconcile the differences between dialogue and SFX then that's up to you.


I don't think its about "reconciling", it's about choosing which depiction to use in analyzing the battle: there's a visual depiction and then there's a verbal depiction
you sound like you give more weight to the verbal depiction (in the dialogue) and that's fine, but I wouldn't ignore the inconsistency altogether



> The pictures in the BFG rulebook depict combat at similar ranges.


sure, that would be inconsistent artwork for the sake of artistic license (I'm sure there are more images like that), but you'd have to weigh a handful of cover images against almost all the BL novels featuring space battles 
whereas I think in Star Trek it seems to be the other way around: 100,000+km range is mentioned a few times, but almost all the on-screen battles occur within a short radius


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## ThoseKrazyKasrkin (Aug 2, 2011)

hailene said:


> First, the webway isn't part of the warp, as I said. From the DE codex, "[The webway] has been described as an incredibly complex network of arteries and capillaries, a maze of glowing tunnels, and a mystic tapestry of hidden threads that spread across the veil *between realspace and the Warp*...It is defined by the fact it sits between the material realm and the roiling tides of the Warp..."
> 
> It later goes on to say, "The webway wass created by an ancient race called the Old Ones as a conduit that allowed its masters to travel at will to countless far-flung worlds *without risking the fickle tides of the Warp*.
> 
> In short, no, it's not part of the warp. It's not in the warp. It's completely separated from the warp.


Didnt the emperor try to force his way into the webway under the golden throne? And wasnt it built through the warp thus requiring shielding? (serious question, not patronisation) And if the emperor dies i think i did read somwhere that daemons would come through the gate.

And the secon part about avoiding the fickle tides of the warp doesnt necissarily mean its not IN the warp just that its protected from the warp. (thus the analogy of arteries and capilleries.)


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

If it's not part of the warp how can parts of it be corrupted infested by daemons? Daemons aren't exactly tech savvy so they probably couldn't open a portal on their own and everyone who knows how to work the webway is deathly afraid of chaos. And nothing you pointed out actually conflicts with what I said... In fact "between the warp and realspace" would imply that it IS a shielded part of the warp. Brought closer to the material realm because daemons are weaker there but still inside the warp because ships go faster there.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

The webway isn't part of real space or the warp, however there are portals leading to it from both dimensions. Thats how being in real space are able to enter the webway, and Magnus the Red used such a portal from within the warp when he tried to warn the Emperor. (And in doing so caused a breach in the webway directly to a very bad spot in real space.)


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> I don't think its about "reconciling", it's about choosing which depiction to use in analyzing the battle: there's a visual depiction and then there's a verbal depiction
> you sound like you give more weight to the verbal depiction (in the dialogue) and that's fine, but I wouldn't ignore the inconsistency altogether.
> 
> sure, that would be inconsistent artwork for the sake of artistic license (I'm sure there are more images like that), but you'd have to weigh a handful of cover images against almost all the BL novels featuring space battles
> whereas I think in Star Trek it seems to be the other way around: 100,000+km range is mentioned a few times, but almost all the on-screen battles occur within a short radius


I don't actually own any of the TV series, but I can promise you that fighting over tens of thousands of kilometers is more than a "few" times.

Also the images in BFG's book are not simply cover images, but rather artwork throughout the book.

And speaking of games, in all the Star Fleet Command games you have vessels duking it out many tens of thousands of kilometers away, yet in BFG you have vessels no more than a couple handful ship lengths away. 

Just for the record, in one episode of Star Trek, they were unwilling to fire their main armament, photon torpedoes, at approaching vessel because it had closed within a few thousand kilometers and the resulting explosion from pulverizing the target would have damaged the Enterprise-D significantly _through_ their own full strength shields. They had to boost their shields to 300% to fire at the target.



ThoseKrazyKasrkin said:


> Didnt the emperor try to force his way into the webway under the golden throne? And wasnt it built through the warp thus requiring shielding? (serious question, not patronisation) And if the emperor dies i think i did read somwhere that daemons would come through the gate.
> 
> And the secon part about avoiding the fickle tides of the warp doesnt necissarily mean its not IN the warp just that its protected from the warp. (thus the analogy of arteries and capilleries.)


Honestly, we're not all too sure what the big E was doing with the golden throne. I thought he was creating his own webway--something that even the Eldar at their height wasn't capable of--and Magnus's message sorta screwed things up.

And no matter how you try to slice it, when it says the webway lies *between* the physical reality and the warp it means it's separate from the warp. Hard to be between a couple things and in it at the same time, right?



Samules said:


> If it's not part of the warp how can parts of it be corrupted infested by daemons? Daemons aren't exactly tech savvy so they probably couldn't open a portal on their own and everyone who knows how to work the webway is deathly afraid of chaos. And nothing you pointed out actually conflicts with what I said... In fact "between the warp and realspace" would imply that it IS a shielded part of the warp. Brought closer to the material realm because daemons are weaker there but still inside the warp because ships go faster there.


Not sure if it's corrupted by daemons, but the DE codex does say it's "infested by strange beings from different realities." 

The fact it says realities instead of reality (IE the warp) means that there's probably more than just daemons cruising through the webway.

And I'm not too sure what I quoted before, but I'll quote s'more from the codex:

"[The webyway]is *defined* by the fact it sits between the material realm and the roiling tides of the Warp, an interstice comparable to the surface of a mirror, or the fabric of a veil cast over something foul."

They are separate.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

When a ship is 10 kilometers long a few ship lengths is quit a large distance.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

JelloSea said:


> When a ship is 10 kilometers long a few ship lengths is quit a large distance.


50-100 kilometers isn't very long compared to the thousands of kilometers we've been given through dialogue.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

hailene said:


> And speaking of games, in all the Star Fleet Command games you have vessels duking it out many tens of thousands of kilometers away, yet in BFG you have vessels no more than a couple handful ship lengths away.


I'm not entirely sure where your getting the handful of lengths from, but the BFG book states that not to be the case. They made sure to be clear that the small part of the base (the stick) represents the general location of the ship. The models we get, those are so we have a visual of the ships themselves (and because it would be rather boring to buy a bunch of clear plastic sticks.)


Handful of lengths on the tabletop, at close range, maybe but those lengths are still representing hundreds of thousands of kilometers of space. (Wow that word feels rather overused in that sentence.:laugh


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

Path of the Seer specifically stated that there are daemons in the webway so it must be connected to the warp but still the eldar dex doesn't have as much coverage of the webway as the DE dex so perhaps you are right.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

darkreever said:


> I'm not entirely sure where your getting the handful of lengths from, but the BFG book states that not to be the case. They made sure to be clear that the small part of the base (the stick) represents the general location of the ship. The models we get, those are so we have a visual of the ships themselves (and because it would be rather boring to buy a bunch of clear plastic sticks.)
> 
> 
> Handful of lengths on the tabletop, at close range, maybe but those lengths are still representing hundreds of thousands of kilometers of space. (Wow that word feels rather overused in that sentence.:laugh


Honestly, it was all a bit tongue-in-cheek. My point was that different mediums and present different facets of a subject and you need to carefully, and reasonably, sort the more consistent and logical ones from the rest.


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## ThoseKrazyKasrkin (Aug 2, 2011)

Perhaps matt ward moved the webway?


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## Brother Emund (Apr 17, 2009)

I just have visions of Starship (Star Tek) crews with their Phaser Rifles, preparing to repel boarders, as the first *SM* Boarding Torpedo slams through the hull. Cannot see them lasting more than a second or more against Space marines or even Stormtroopers. I think it would be over very quickly.
And Klingons are brave and fearless, I'm sure, but no match for a fully-armoured Astartes..


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Yeah ... in every single "40K vs BLANK" 40k always wins ... because 40k is the only universe that has enough scope to cover the entire galaxy, the others "say" they can, but it just isnt true. 

Apart from maybe dragon ball z, they blow up 5 planets every fight so ... a bit overpowered compared to 40k and thats saying something.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

cegorach said:


> Yeah ... in every single "40K vs BLANK" 40k always wins ... because 40k is the only universe that has enough scope to cover the entire galaxy, the others "say" they can, but it just isnt true.
> 
> Apart from maybe dragon ball z, they blow up 5 planets every fight so ... a bit overpowered compared to 40k and thats saying something.


Why do you think I never mentioned anything about bak'leth's? catachan blades are much better.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

although obvious, klingons vs. vlka fenryka would be interesting. wolves would win though.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

cegorach said:


> Yeah ... in every single "40K vs BLANK" 40k always wins ... because 40k is the only universe that has enough scope to cover the entire galaxy, the others "say" they can, but it just isnt true.


If you're worried about numbers, you could throw the Borg into the equation. They actually _control_ significant portions of the galaxy, rather than owning tiny islands in the sea that is the Milky Way. And volume wise their cubes are larger than Warhammer battleships. And there's a hell lot more of them, too.



Reaper45 said:


> Why do you think I never mentioned anything about bak'leth's? catachan blades are much better.


See, it's these sort of biased, unfounded claims that make a versus thread pointless.

Do I know if Klingon weapons are better? Hell no. Exact physical characteristics (toughness, hardness, density, ect) haven't been given out. We simply don't know which is better.

I'll say this, though: Romulans are 3 times stronger than normal humans. Klingons are stronger than Romulans.

That ought to give us some insight on how tough their blades have to be, though.


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## Smokes (Nov 27, 2009)

It's obvious that Picard is just an Alpha Legion agent...


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

hailene said:


> If you're worried about numbers, you could throw the Borg into the equation. They actually _control_ significant portions of the galaxy, rather than owning tiny islands in the sea that is the Milky Way. And volume wise their cubes are larger than Warhammer battleships. And there's a hell lot more of them, too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bak'leths are designed to look cool and give interesting battles.

As weapons any strike you make is within your defensive area, the devils claw on the other hand is designed for striking.
Granted a bak'leth might be ok for cqb.


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

hailene said:


> If you're worried about numbers, you could throw the Borg into the equation. They actually _control_ significant portions of the galaxy, rather than owning tiny islands in the sea that is the Milky Way. And volume wise their cubes are larger than Warhammer battleships. And there's a hell lot more of them, too.


Right, I did not know that was the case, I am sorry to have rudely made a point without knowing all the facts first. I apologise for making assumptions and I am glad you proved me wrong and pointed this out to me. For I know completely nothing about the star trek universe. So next time I think I will keep my big nose out of it.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

troi vs mephiston an epic mental battle


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## Eetion (Mar 19, 2008)

piemelke said:


> troi vs mephiston an epic mental battle


Really? 
Im no trek fan, but I thought she was just good at reading empathy.

Any psycher from lowly warlock to Ahriman should be more than capable of turning her to a meat coloured slush.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

of course you are completely right,
how could I have been so stupid


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

KES however would blow most psykers out of the water.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Eetion said:


> Really?
> Im no trek fan, but I thought she was just good at reading empathy.
> 
> Any psycher from lowly warlock to Ahriman should be more than capable of turning her to a meat coloured slush.


Troi is an empath, but if the someone else has psyker abilities she can do stuff.

Source. Star trek nemesis.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

the mechanicum queueing up for assimilation would be a real problem for the imperium though lolz


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Per say The United Federation of Planets does not formally have a Starfleet Army, what is the protocol is that Starfleet Officers and Ordinary Ranks double as ground troops in times of planetary actions. Although this is up to each planet member to have or not have trained ground forces. Very Complicated to work out.

Jem'Hadar soldiers are indeed created from clones in three days, but they need a special drug called Ketracel White, without it the Jem'Hadar can't function as they lose both cognative and motor functions.

Also other major flaws in the Star Trek universe is that Klingon and Romulan Cloaking devices can be overcome with powerful Psychers that the IoM has.

It was with interest a scientific paper was issued of an outcome between an X-Wing Fighter and the USS Enterprise D and in that the victory would go to the X-Wing, you see that one of the major weakness of all Star Trek Vessels are their relatively weak defense shields. Meaning that in the case of battle a few Space Marines floating in space with Meltas could essentially destroy the USS Enterprise D with a few choice shots, the melts shots would bore right through the USS Enterprise D's shields like a very hot knife through room temp butter.

Even the Domminion, Borg, Romulan and Klingon shields are far to weak to stop Melta shots.

It would be an absolute galactic slaughter the IoM would kill off the Fed and other within months.


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## Brother Emund (Apr 17, 2009)

We have all forgotten one thing that might tip the scales in favour of Starfleet... *James Tiberius Kirk*.
All over.... :biggrin:


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## stalarious (Aug 25, 2011)

Well in all seriousness lets say the star trek galaxy somehow came into 40k's the question would then become where. If they came around the nids there screwed came around the eldar again screwed tau...Maybe walk away unharmed and only if the tau didnt do anything to them. around Orks fucked around Imperium fucked. Star trek is a galaxy where most aliens dont want to kill the federation so when they meet a new alien race they try to go say hi I would look to see kirk go talk to a ork.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Achaylus72 said:


> It was with interest a scientific paper was issued of an outcome between an X-Wing Fighter and the USS Enterprise D and in that the victory would go to the X-Wing, you see that one of the major weakness of all Star Trek Vessels are their relatively weak defense shields. Meaning that in the case of battle a few Space Marines floating in space with Meltas could essentially destroy the USS Enterprise D with a few choice shots, the melts shots would bore right through the USS Enterprise D's shields like a very hot knife through room temp butter.
> 
> Even the Domminion, Borg, Romulan and Klingon shields are far to weak to stop Melta shots.


X-wing shots are decidedly sub-kiloton shots. Have you been reading Starwars non-canon again? The Expanded Universe is, as Lucas says, a different universe was his own.

And, no, Startrek shields are not particularly weak. The low estimate for a Galaxy class ship with weakened shield is many tens of thousands of terajoules. Feel free to peruse the article real quick.

http://www.ditl.org/pagarticle.php?34


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