# +1 stat improvements: Strength



## Bubblematrix (Jun 4, 2009)

I often look at units and think 'if only that unit had another point of strength, then it would be very nice' or 'they are good, but if the strength was X+1 then they would be well balanced'

Which units would you really like to see given a strength buff, which would be uterly broken at +1 S and which do you think would finally be balanced rather than under par.

Note: please do not post stat lines, just the unit you would do this to for the improvement, if people want to know the new stat then they should consult a codex.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Would love to see Ork Boyz with +1 strength permanently instead of furious charge.
Although their cost would have to increase to represent the change.


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

I really want to see Hellguns / Hotshot las guns of all kind become Strength 4 AP 3 with the option of giving them to all command units in the IG and making them a special weapons option for squads.

I know this stinks of "Urgh these are just to kill marines", but I often feel that too many plasma guns / meltas etc are packed into IG lists when the supposed 'weapon of choice' is Las-technology.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I think that Eldar Howling Banshees would really benefit from this. There would be less need for a Farseer to accompany them and the mirrorswords would be of great use.


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

Bloodletters should have a stength buff. these guys are immortal, have fought against things their entire exsistance, created with the fury of the blood god himself and they worship Khorne. A 1+ S would make alot of sense.


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## Luisjoey (Dec 3, 2010)

Even i don´t play TAU

Kroot should be better with +1 Str 

Black Templars Swordbrethren and terminators should be better with ws +1


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Kharn would be brutal with a strength buff. Orks should have +1 Strength, as Cheese said, as it fits those giant muscles more than having the same strength as a Guardsman.

Midnight


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

Space Marines. To represent they're not only super human, but also the benefits from power/terminator armour. S4 is too puny for these guys.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

If Mandrakes started out with a pain token, they'd be much more worthwhile. As is, they just kind of fail, despite looking really awesome.


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## Kinglopey (Sep 10, 2008)

Orks need it and they could keep Furious Charge, other than that, I agree with Khorne stuff, but would pass it to all Daemons to keep them close scale wise.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

CSM
Lesser daemons
Possessed (Drop table, and just give em 5=Inv, and str 6)
Lords 

Daemons 
DP
Bloodletters (If they drop furious charge)


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## the Autarch (Aug 23, 2009)

Flash said:


> Space Marines. To represent they're not only super human, but also the benefits from power/terminator armour. S4 is too puny for these guys.


strength 5 marines? seriously? :headbutt:

the whole game is based on the marine statline of 4s why change it? especially by making space marines broken.... /rant

sorry just think that's too much


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

the Autarch said:


> strength 5 marines? seriously? :headbutt:
> 
> the whole game is based on the marine statline of 4s why change it? especially by making space marines broken.... /rant
> 
> sorry just think that's too much


This is a theoretical discussion and changing any units stat line would unbalance the game. That's just my opinion.

I also agree Orks should be +1 strength. Orks are huge ape like creatures and they're as strong as guardsmen. Dumb.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

A Daemon prince would be just ridiculous at S7. on the other hand, Obliterators need a strength buff, i mean they are half daemon monstrosities, they need to be S5


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Well they used to have T(5) to represent being hulking monstrosities, but we all know what happened there. In all honesty oblits are noticeably weaker and more expensive then they where and yet people still bits that their over powered.

Also I don't thing a Str7 DP would be noticeably more threatening, with 60% of models being T3-4 the extra pip of strength only shows a 17% increase in to wound rolls against T6 which is only abundant in tyranid armies, now str8 is the magic broken number where a str bonus would be overpowering.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

I think oblits would be much improved with a +1 Str increase and i think Terminators ought to come with the +1 Str as well, In the fluff( i know fluff doesnt equate to TT but; ) hey are much stronger then their PA Brethren and i think this should be shown in the rules, i think it would make them more worthwhile it would make them so much better at tank busting with there PF's having the extra +2 strength can make all the difference i think.


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

yanlou said:


> I think oblits would be much improved with a +1 Str increase and i think Terminators ought to come with the +1 Str as well, In the fluff( i know fluff doesnt equate to TT but; ) hey are much stronger then their PA Brethren and i think this should be shown in the rules, i think it would make them more worthwhile it would make them so much better at tank busting with there PF's having the extra +2 strength can make all the difference i think.


And Chaos termies are 10 pts less than Imperial ones. +1 Strength on imperial termies would actually reflect the extra 10 pts.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

i think most MCs could do well with a S bonus.

orks im not entirely sold on since the boyz are smaller than nobs (who are S4 base IIRC) and warbosses/meks/etc are even stronger than nobz. if you give the basic boy a S bump then the whole ork army would need a bump.


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

Fallen said:


> i think most MCs could do well with a S bonus.
> 
> orks im not entirely sold on since the boyz are smaller than nobs (who are S4 base IIRC) and warbosses/meks/etc are even stronger than nobz. if you give the basic boy a S bump then the whole ork army would need a bump.


Agreed, lets face it Nobs and Warbosses don't have an issue with strength at all. A nice compromise would be the return of Skarboys, have the skarboys with increased strength but not the bonuses of improved wargear that Nobs can choose. Make it an upgrade that can be applied to a single unit of boys in the same manner as 'ard boys.

I'd like to see something done more about the problem with getting through armour that orks have. Maybe apply the old choppa rules to the big choppas, with a points increase of course. Still means only select few can benefit from the extra armour penetration but means not everyone is wandering around attacking with electric can openers.


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

Flash said:


> And Chaos termies are only XX pts. +1 Strength on imperial termies would actually reflect their YY points a model.


Actually the points difference pretty fairly represents the chancge in wargear. Imperial termis come with a power fist as standard, chaos termies have to pay extra points to buy them and the points value works out the same. Even then however the chaos boys only have twin bolters (no storm bolters here) and don't have "and they shall know no fear" The imperial termies have a much better deal.


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

GrimzagGorwazza said:


> Actually the points difference pretty fairly represents the chancge in wargear. Imperial termis come with a power fist as standard, chaos termies have to pay extra points to buy them and the points value works out the same. Even then however the chaos boys only have twin bolters (no storm bolters here) and don't have "and they shall know no fear" The imperial termies have a much better deal.


I disagree. Basic squad of imperial termies would get pwned by a 5 man chaos termie squad. Power weapons go first. Additionally they have access to make them champions and all sorts of wargear and upgrades that far outmatch imperial termies.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Flash said:


> I disagree. Basic squad of imperial termies would get pwned by a 5 man chaos termie squad. Power weapons go first. Additionally they have access to make them champions and all sorts of wargear and upgrades that far outmatch imperial termies.


Sweet jesus I wish peaple would use basic math to back up these kind aof claims.

10 CSM with PW = 3.33 dead loyalists
7 remaining loyalists with pfs = 3.9 dead csm's

So no they won't win, cheaper yes, but they will not be killing mc's or ID IC's. Hence why their XXpts with the option to pay AA to get pfs. 

Also once again the math fail since a champ costs AA pts for a single extra attack, and all the icons only pay of when dealing with 10 models, other wise you often end up pay a extra 7-10pts a model. SH/TH termies rock scm termies.

The only advantage csm termies have is comi weapons, and when spammed they hurt.


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

LukeValantine said:


> Sweet jesus I wish peaple would use basic math to back up these kind aof claims.
> 
> 10 CSM with PW = 3.33 dead loyalists
> 7 remaining loyalists with pfs = 3.9 dead csm's
> ...


So all in all CSM terminators pwn imperial terminators for less points and have more wargear options in a single entry.......


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Flash said:


> So all in all CSM terminators pwn imperial terminators for less points and have more wargear options in a single entry.......


Except Terminators aren't that great, except for Storm Shields. Which only Imperials have. o_o


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Flash said:


> So all in all CSM terminators pwn imperial terminators for less points and have more wargear options in a single entry.......



Except as Luke showed with some quick math, model for model stock chaos terminators are not better than imperial terminators. Thats why they have those options, and the fact that suits of terminator armour are not as rare for the traitor legions (who did have a greater number of them pre and post Heresy than many chapters do now) is reflected by lower initial point cost per model.

They cost a little less, but they also come with less, and your going to end up spending nearly as much in order to kit them out and get them on par with their loyalist counterparts.


And while power weapons do go first, they strike at a strength that, in this case, is equal to the enemy models toughness and from that have a harder time to wound. A powerfist may be slower, but its hitting at a higher strength and wounding much easier.


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

I still think point for point CSM termies are better and have access to a greater variety of wargear and special rules. I think that should be reflected in their points cost. Just my opinion based on personal experience

Back on topic I also think chaos termies should have +1 strength the same as imperial. They're all superhuman in battlesuits, evil or not and points cost aside.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Flash said:


> Back on topic I also think chaos termies should have +1 strength the same as imperial. They're all superhuman in battlesuits, evil or not and points cost aside.


I'm sorry, did I miss something along the way? Last I checked, loyalist and traitor marine terminators have the same strength. One comes armed with a powerfist while the other comes armed with a power weapon, but their base strength was the same last I saw.


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## Dermon Caffran (Jul 20, 2010)

Well this threads full of rage isnt it!? Imagine if GW actually did tamper with a few units strength hahaha:taunt:


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

darkreever said:


> I'm sorry, did I miss something along the way? Last I checked, loyalist and traitor marine terminators have the same strength. One comes armed with a powerfist while the other comes armed with a power weapon, but their base strength was the same last I saw.


The topic is about which units should have +1 strength in their profile. I said Space Marines should have +1 strength originally. I was claryfying Chaos Space Marines should also have +1 strength as they are of the same ilk. It's got nothing to do with balance issues, it was just my opinion.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Flash said:


> So all in all CSM terminators pwn imperial terminators for less points and have more wargear options in a single entry.......


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH....
holy fuck I nearly fell out of my god damn chair.

I'll tell you what. You can have every single fucking entry we have besides the powerfist, but you have to give us storm shields. All of them.

Do you realize how laughable that comment is?

Icons: Chaos glory is the only one worth taking as it's a dirt cheap alternative for ATSKNF...that we lose if the icon falls down. And we still get swept in combat. Every other one blows dick for making our terminators 5-15 points more expensive for minimal benefit.(t5 terminators get dickpunched by power weapons/artillery/things that people shoot at termies/i5 is fucking stupid on grenadeless people/a+1 is fine, but we still get pasted in CC and aren't fearless/4++ is just a cover save we can take with us, and is worse than the 3++ SS)
Powerfists: Okay we buy them for xx points and now cost exactly the same as a loyalist terminator! Only we don't have ATSKNF. Or any variant land raider. Or drop pods.
Reaper Autocannon: Costs 9078346730pts too many. This shit is awful.
Aspiring Champions: Cost the same as a meltagun in CSM. For one more attack.

Really, in case you didn't notice, nobody brings our terminators unless they're either new/awful at the game, or they bring three douchebags with a chain/powerfist, and three combi meltas.
Loyalist terminators are fearless bodyguards, objective-takers, unstoppable raging machines. Our terminators are red-shirted bombs with a single payload, who then should politely die. Seriously, we treat these 'veterans of a thousand wars' like god-damned spore mines because otherwise they can't make back their points.


BUT OH MAN WE COST TEN POINTS LESS NAKED. TOTALLY OP.


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

LordWaffles said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH....
> holy fuck I nearly fell out of my god damn chair.
> 
> I'll tell you what. You can have every single fucking entry we have besides the powerfist, but you have to give us storm shields. All of them.
> ...


I never even mentioned Assault Terminators so the stormshield thing means absolutely fuck all in this instance. That comment would only be applicable if I was talking about Deathwing, which would be a comparable unit, option wise (mixing assault and shooty together).

I'm talking about Imperial Terminators and Chaos Terminators; a unit that is base cheaper for better wargear options and flexibilty. Imperial Terminators MUST take powerfists (except the Sergeant...wow), which is a detriment because it's overkill. Overkill you're paying premium points for. I'd much prefer 30 point Imperial Terminators with Power Weapons that can upgrade to Powerfists. They also get access to 2 heavily overpriced heavy weapons or the heavy flamer....which would be better off in the Assault Varient.

A properly upgraded Chaos Terminator squad would pwn Imperial Terminators for less points. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Flash said:


> I never even mentioned Assault Terminators so the stormshield thing means absolutely fuck all in this instance.


Except that you have the option to field them in nearly every imperial space marine codex. Whilest chaos NEVER gets to field them. Which actually means fuckall in this argument. Last I checked they were 4's across the board 2+/5+ and the exact same cost as generic terminators.


Flash said:


> I'm talking about Imperial Terminators and Chaos Terminators; a unit that is base cheaper for better wargear options and flexibilty.


Except the options are all worse as I previously pointed out...like seriously. Missile launchers and assault cannons? Here's all our god-damned flags and power weapons. Have a field day.
Our flexibility is: Deep strike. Fire at something within 6" with three once-a-game melta shots. Then ponderously wander around til a dedicated shooty or CC squad pastes us.


Flash said:


> Imperial Terminators MUST take powerfists (except the Sergeant...wow), which is a detriment because it's overkill. Overkill you're paying premium points for. I'd much prefer 30 point Imperial Terminators with Power Weapons that can upgrade to Powerfists. They also get access to 2 heavily overpriced heavy weapons or the heavy flamer....which would be better off in the Assault Varient.


HAHAHAHAH heavily overpriced.
You have -read- the cost on a reaper autocannon right? How about our flags that have you so butthurt?
I'd much prefer paying ten points a guy to not have to pick up an entire squad of terminators if we roll a bad leadership check(With attached characters!)
Also where do you think our terminators are going to assault you that makes it so pivotal? Our only options to get to loyalists are via deepstrike(We get shot or assaulted first), or we jump out of our abysmally expensive land raider(and have no frag launchers so all of our power weapons go at I1 anyway).


Flash said:


> A properly upgraded Chaos Terminator squad would pwn Imperial Terminators for less points. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.


You're right it's not an opinion, it's a WRONG opinion.
We already did the numbers on this and you lost before. Why don't you make a properly costed squad of chaos terminators and I'll make one squad of vanilla terminators for the same price?
Oh be sure to tell me how you're arriving(Walking, teleporting, land raidering) because those factor into how wide your asshole is going to be by the time you get to my superior terminators. By the way, take all the options, I'm sure you'll do just grand with a reaper autocannon and the icon of nurgle(That my free fists punch right through).

And about the usage of terminators, you should learn to play the game before advising me on how to use fucking awful units. If they were viable as anything more than fatty fatty 2x4 spore mines, people would use them like that. But ask any competitive chaos player and they'll tell you the same thing I just did. 

Also I love how the immediate reply from people who have no tactical knowledge is "Ur usin dem wrongs". An entire legion of players must be misinformed to your amazingly stellar ability to play with overcosted horseshit units!


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

Wow I really do wind people up on here don't I? lol.

You've convinced me. Imperial Terminators obviously pwn....that's why everyone takes them.......


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

It's not really a matter of pwning, but relative suckage.


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## Flash (May 11, 2011)

Masked Jackal said:


> It's not really a matter of pwning, but relative suckage.


A much more accurate description. + rep


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Still like my khornate fist terminators, not always useful, but I like the idea of 40 PF attacks on the charge. Mind you I mostly only use them in apocalypse, but meh.

But yah csm terminators are mostly useful as reliant spot remover units with a couple of combi's, I myself take 5 with combi plasma for a late game 10 plasma gun shots at rear armor, or mc's.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

It's just sad that such units have been reduced to sacrificial units. Terminators and Chosen are supposed to be the *elites* of the army, badass enough to warrant their improved wargear, but as is, they're just throwaways. Least fluffiest thing ever.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Yah at the least both should have WS5 if not crazy wargear, but no its not to be for this codex.


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

I certainly hope that GW examines this oversight whenever they decide to update Chaos. Terminators, who battle one another to see who gets the suit, should be Fearless _at least_.


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## Bubblematrix (Jun 4, 2009)

All: please re-rail this tread or I will have it closed, it is not the thread "my terminator dick is bigger than yours"


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Bubblematrix said:


> All: please re-rail this tread or I will have it closed, it is not the thread "my terminator dick is bigger than yours"


But MY dick is bigger than any Terminator could dream of.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> But MY dick is bigger than any Terminator could dream of.


Comebacks to the mods may seem really funny, but we were really going off-topic. 

Chaos Chosen. If they had a stat buff of some kind from regular Chaos Space Marines, they'd be much more worthwhile in their intended role. +1WS/I would help.


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## Bubblematrix (Jun 4, 2009)

Having not posted my own selection:

Striking scorpions need the str buff, or banshees even more, every time I look at banshees I get alll the way to how hard it is for them to wound anything before I stop myself - apart from that they are ace.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Bubblematrix said:


> All: please re-rail this tread or I will have it closed, it is not the thread "my terminator dick is bigger than yours"


Chaos terminators need a +1s dick to compensate for them being fucking awful.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Tyranid warriors should get their S5 back. They`re awful at S4, needing fours to wound SM`s which are almost half their size smaller. 

Another nid unit that would benefit from this is the trygon. For a beast bigger than the carnifex, shouldn`t it be a little stronger than say, the lictor? I don`t know how they can justify something that big being the same strength as something so much smaller. :fool:


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Tyranid warriors should get their S5 back. They`re awful at S4, needing fours to wound SM`s which are almost half their size smaller.
> 
> Another nid unit that would benefit from this is the trygon. For a beast bigger than the carnifex, shouldn`t it be a little stronger than say, the lictor? I don`t know how they can justify something that big being the same strength as something so much smaller. :fool:


Because it's an mc. Hurpdedurp. Roll 2d6 for armor pen and ignore armor saves.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

If you say so.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

I love how this thread broke down into argument about chaos terminators.

For those of you that don't know, alot of chaos players take the idea of chaos units sucking very seriously. while it is true that chaos has some pretty glaring weaknesses, it's funny to me how chaos players always rush in to make sure everyone knows that their shit is the worst.

For +1 str, i'm most definitely gonna go to possessed!


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Eleven said:


> I love how this thread broke down into argument about chaos terminators.
> 
> For those of you that don't know, alot of chaos players take the idea of chaos units sucking very seriously. while it is true that chaos has some pretty glaring weaknesses, it's funny to me how chaos players always rush in to make sure everyone knows that their shit is the worst.
> 
> For +1 str, i'm most definitely gonna go to possessed!


We remind people who have no idea what they're talking about why they're wrong. And mathematically present why it's a falsification. I see no reason why you would mock us for being more intelligent on the subject of our army than you are.

+1 str? Grey Knight Purifiers and psyriflemen dreads.


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## Anfo (Jul 17, 2009)

Eleven said:


> it's funny to me how chaos players always rush in to make sure everyone knows that their shit is the worst.


We got to be know for something beside Lash Princes...

+1str to the Boyz


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