# Black Legion Series (ADB)



## ckcrawford

Just thought you'd folks like to know. Seems like something really awesome. I haven't been excited for a Black Library work in a long time. But this... looks promising.


http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2013/03/29/the-talon-of-horus/


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## Brother Subtle

Can. Not. Wait!

As far as traitor legions go. The biggest one seems to get overlooked the most! Until now!


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## Malus Darkblade

Hmm the Black Legion have never really interested me (Abaddon too except his cameo in the first ADB NL book) because they've been depicted as your generic bad guy legion. A Chaos version of the Ultramarines.

Maybe (most likely) ADB can change that.


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## Lord of the Night

Malus Darkblade said:


> Hmm the Black Legion have never really interested me (Abaddon too except his cameo in the first ADB NL book) because they've been depicted as your generic bad guy legion. A Chaos version of the Ultramarines.


ADB does actually address that in the comments.



ADB said:


> It’s hard to reply without saying too much, but where the Ultramarines are “generic” Space Marines (as much as I love them, that’s not an insult – they are 95% of the template for the concept itself, which in turn is one of the things I love most about their implementation), the Black Legion aren’t the generic template for the Chaos Marines. They’re not the “default” Chaos Marines in the same way. Instead, they’re everything about Chaos. The best and worst of it; the best and worst of every single Legion. You can point to an Ultramarine and say “That’s a Space Marine”. You can’t do that with a Black Legionnaire, and say “That’s a Chaos Marine”. Uh, is he a former Son of Horus? A Word Bearer exploring his faith in a new way? A Renegade newly sworn to the Black? A Thousand Son sorcerer? A guy who forgot his original Legion completely? A Khorne Berzerker? There’s no “generic” Black Legionnaire. Former Sons of Horus are as defined and unique as any other Marine in the Legion.
> 
> The Black Legion: united in hate.


I share the sentiments here. More CSM is always a great thing, by ADB it's an even greater thing. But a CSM series by ADB that has the potential to become a long-running series, ala _Gaunt's Ghosts_?? Now that is the best news i've heard since The Creative Assembly's Warhammer RTS game.


LotN


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## Brother Subtle

I expect ADB to give The Black Legion it's own identity. Something that makes them uniquely evil. Well... Lets hope!!!


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## bigtax

The.Best.Warhammer40k.Series.Will.Come.


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## hailene

I'd like to see the Astartes strength of the BL explained in detailed. If you take the Word Bearer trilogy at face value, the BL could have a couple million Astartes itself.


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## Lord Hell

I am most interested in what Abaddon's personalty in the Black Legion Series will be. And if any of the Daemon Primarchs or other well know chaos champions like Erebus,Lucius,Khârn,Ahriman,Lufgt Huron,Kor Phaeron and others will appear.


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## sadLor

Lord Hell said:


> I am most interested in what Abaddon's personalty in the Black Legion Series will be. And if any of the Daemon Primarchs or other well know chaos champions like Erebus,Lucius,Khârn,Ahriman,Lufgt Huron,Kor Phaeron and others will appear.


Well, the lore says the Emperor's Children steal Horus' body and try to clone him. I assume that means we'll most likely see Lucius for sure. And cloning Horus? That seems to have Fabius all over it.

But really, there isn't much set lore during the period right after the HH. All we know is the BL courted each of the Chaos gods in turn and the other chaos legions attacked them. ADB is free to write anything he wants. Be interesting to see if any of the traitor primarchs/daemon primarchs show up. And dare ADB clear up what happened to Russ/Corax who were both said to have disappeared into the Eye? Highly doubtful...but fun to think about.


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## forkmaster

It appears the main character of the series will be a former Thousand Sons-Astartes, turning Black Legion!


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## Lord of the Night

forkmaster said:


> It appears the main character of the series will be a former Thousand Sons-Astartes, turning Black Legion!


Yep, here's what we know about him so far.



ADB said:


> The main character, at Abaddon's right hand and who will become one of the Black Legion's founders, is Iskandar Khayon - a Thousand Son, though he has many, many, many titles by 999.M41, and hardly anyone knows his real name by then. He was in the Thousand Sons' inner circle of command, and unsuccessfully tried to stop the Rubric.


He definitely sounds interesting.


LotN


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## sadLor

Brand new character? I can't remember him from Prospero Burns or a Thousand Sons...But it's been awhile since I've read those.


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## Myen'Tal

Oh, this definitely seems interesting, I'm sure it will be greatk:!


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## Lord of the Night

sadLor said:


> Brand new character? I can't remember him from Prospero Burns or a Thousand Sons...But it's been awhile since I've read those.


He's not in the Heresy series, and according to ADB he probably won't be.


LotN


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lord of the Night said:


> He's not in the Heresy series, and according to ADB he probably won't be.
> 
> 
> LotN


Good. I don't half hate it when authors (McNeill) constantly regurgitate characters.


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## gothik

i for one cant wait for this, its about time the Black Legion got its shot, maybe some old faces will appeear like Widowmaker cause he was one of my favs from the lunar Wolves/SOH


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## Lord of the Night

gothik said:


> i for one cant wait for this, its about time the Black Legion got its shot, maybe some old faces will appeear like Widowmaker cause he was one of my favs from the lunar Wolves/SOH


Well ADB did confirm that Falkus Kibre survived the Heresy in _Soul Hunter_, he was still leading Abaddon's Terminator elite. If I had to guess i'd say he'll likely be in the Black Legion series.


LotN


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## Brother Subtle

I hope each edition gets a first run hardcover like Pariah, Priests of Mars etc. I really like the non-dust jacket hardcovers BL produce. Even better if i can get them from BookDepos.

I'm pretty sure the Gaunts Ghosts series started out this way.


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## forkmaster

Lord of the Night said:


> Yep, here's what we know about him so far.
> 
> 
> 
> He definitely sounds interesting.
> 
> 
> LotN


If he didn't support the Rubric and hated the results it gives a pretty good reason to abbadon his own Legion!  Man I am SO excited!


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## Kaspar Mayer

I am pretty excited for this series. Even more so if it becomes a long running series. It looks like ADB can take things pretty much anywhere he wants to (and over a 10,000 year period, that can be pretty far). Now the wait for The Talon of Horus. This may be the first series I buy everything in hardcover.


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## piemelke

I hope it will be first in a set of series, I assume GW is already preparing for a life after the HH,


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## sadLor

forkmaster said:


> If he didn't support the Rubric and hated the results it gives a pretty good reason to abbadon his own Legion!


You deserve some credit for that pun:so_happy:




> I hope it will be first in a set of series, I assume GW is already preparing for a life after the HH,


Post HH...I wonder when that will be. In any case, they have stories to tell for decades when/if HH ever ends. Whole series can be written about the Great Crusade, Primarch's upbringing on their homeworlds, Reign of Blood, etc.


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## piemelke

I mean the concept of long (6 books or more ) series with the same quality as the HH


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## Lord of the Night

piemelke said:


> I mean the concept of long (6 books or more ) series with the same quality as the HH


Apparantely words like "ADB's Gaunt's Ghosts" are being tossed around at BL. So this series could very well be Black Library's new long-running series. And it's not a Guard series or an Imperial Marine series but a Chaos Marine series. Truly great news indeed. :grin:


LotN


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## gridge

This is pretty exciting. I do wish ADB would do some more loyalist marine work but I absolutely love his chaos marines.


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## MontytheMighty

Kinda odd that this TSons Inner Circle member is not mentioned at all in _A Thousand Sons_ 

I'm guessing he's not a Fellowship Captain, maybe a Captain's second-in-command?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

MontytheMighty said:


> Kinda odd that this TSons Inner Circle member is not mentioned at all in _A Thousand Sons_
> 
> I'm guessing he's not a Fellowship Captain, maybe a Captain's second-in-command?


Not every important Thousand Son was involved in the prose of _A Thousand Sons_. No doubt Aaron will justify Iskandar Khayon's XV Legion heritage without any problem. He is very good at dealing with established lore and meshing it seamlessly into his own works.

Besides, Aaron shouldn't restrict himself by using XV Legion characters that were only mentioned/featured in Mcneill's _A Thousand Sons_. That would be silly. :wink:


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

MontytheMighty said:


> Kinda odd that this TSons Inner Circle member is not mentioned at all in _A Thousand Sons_
> 
> I'm guessing he's not a Fellowship Captain, maybe a Captain's second-in-command?


This is what worries me. People think 40K is so small, mostly because of the scale it's presented in (in the books and codices, as much as any fan assumption). Here's my answer to this exact topic, on another forum:

_"It's not really a matter of limitation. From the outset, the best opportunity about a Black Legion series is a matter of scale. I don't really care, to be perfectly honest, what happens to the handful of major captains we see in the Sons of Horus, in the HH series. With the ebb and flow of Legion ranks, there are between 100 and 200 captains, commanders, battalion leaders, and several hundred more lieutenants and sergeants, etc. And that's just the Sons of Horus (who, as a related note, are practically annihilated in the Legion Wars inside the Eye of Terror, by the time the Black Legion is founded). Captains, sorcerers, officers and everything else from the other Legions are also part of the Black Legion's founding, because while the Sons of Horus were just the Luna Wolves with a new coat of paint, the Black Legion is categorically not the Sons of Horus with a new colour scheme. The Black Legion is something utterly new to the galaxy, and the Traitor Legions.

As for other Heresy characters, their fates are already famously established, or they may or may not be irrelevant. The Heresy series (sadly) can only show so much. It shows a fraction of the power players within each Legion. Anyone coming into this with linear thinking will find their expectations dashed, I think. Let's say Horus Aximand survives, for example. If I mention him, he might not join the Black Legion at all. If I don't mention him, it doesn't mean he doesn't make it. It means he has nothing to do with the story, or the founding of the Black Legion, or other characters have eclipsed him in importance. And on the flip side, how many captains of the Thousand Sons have we really seen? Or the Emperor's Children? Or even the Sons of Horus? There are hundreds and hundreds - some are minor, some are major, but they're just not quite on the level of the Kharns and Ahrimans. And, of course, Abaddon.

So, naw, it's not about there being any limits set on this. In fact, the opposite is true, as f'rex Dan has already asked which Sons of Horus characters I planned to use, so we didn't kill them off in the Heresy, etc. It's more a matter of scale, that the characters we've seen in the Heresy are 0.01% of the bigger picture. The First Lords of the Black Legion aren't necessarily the last commanders of the Sons of Horus. It'll never be that linear - I'd be doing a huge injustice to the scale of the setting if it played out like that.

Think of it like Troy. All those heroes died in the Trojan War, except for a small handful that went on to their own adventures. Odysseus had his Odyssey. Aeneas went to found the city of Alba Longa with the Latins. A few hundred years later, the last lords of Troy were mostly gone, and the first lords of Rome took their place.

I'm sure there'll be a spoiler or two on the most minor scale, but we already know what happens to every primarch and first captain anyway, so it's hardly life-shattering. As for other characters, it's more a matter of it not being about the same guys that masterminded the Heresy. We already know most of their fates. This is about the Traitor Legions being forced to live in Hell, in the wake of their primarchs abandoning them and evolving to a higher plane of life; and a new breed of Chaos Marine rising from the rubble.

The main character, at Abaddon's right hand and who will become one of the Black Legion's founders, is Iskandar Khayon - a Thousand Son. He was in the Thousand Sons' inner circle of command, and unsuccessfully tried to stop the Rubric. *He's not mentioned in the Horus Heresy series (though I could easily have him slipped in already; could've done it myself twice over)*, but the focused nature of the HH series means about a bajillion major and minor characters are slipping through the cracks. There's room for a lot of flex space, if you get me.

If you have too much crossover, the galaxy becomes too small. It's one of my hugest bugbears. Like how Boba Fett is "the most feared bounty hunter in the galaxy". The galaxy is a big, big, big place. I hate that "small neighbourhood" feel of everyone knowing everyone else."_


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

:goodpost:

Completely agree with Aaron. That's the main reason why I found Mcneill's massive character/setting overlaps between his 40k series' and one or two of his Heresy novels to be cringe worthy.


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## Captain_Daerys_Arrun

Looking foreward to this one and ADB is one who wlmost always delivers.


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## mal310

I am looking forward this series and have no doubts that it will be excellent. However I am slightly concerned that because it will be such a large series it will take up much of Aaron’s writing time to the detriment of other topics that could do with some of the Bowden magic. Personally I find that every aspect of the Warhammer setting he writes about benefits enormously from his work. The Night Lords, World Eaters and Word Bearers for example have all had their legacy/background etc improved extensively because of his writing. 

I’d love to see him writing about all the legions, the Necrons, Tau, Dark Elder, Orks and everything else in the setting and even some Warhammer Fantasy. I know we can’t have it all as he’s only one man but hopefully he’ll still be able to cover a lot of things. 

Now of course it’s his personal choice what he writes about and I’ll read it regardless because it’s always great, however I still hope that the journey he takes us on can be as varied as possible.


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## Lord of the Night

ADB Twitter said:


> Evacuating Prospero; winged Dark Eldar women; talking to Rubricae; and strangling one of the Emperor's Children. On to Chapter II.


So much to love already. :grin:


LotN


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## Angel of Blood

He tricked us with the cover art though!!! Damn you ADB!!!! Funny all the same.


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## bobss

I feel as if ADB 'gets' the essence of 40k lore in all its grimdark appeal, whereas so many other authors can't -- or at least not A) to the same extent or B) on a regular and replicable basis. What I've read never fails to provide new and interesting angles to view the setting with, be it the large or small picture, that also mesh with previously established material. Even to this day little things such as, say, the Night Lords' conceit and elitism towards renegades in the Maelstrom stick with me (if I dreamt that moment, my rather enjoyable Spring of 2011 will come crashing down). Why? I don't quite know. This interaction between one of the founding Legions and a much more recent turncoat group feels so natural, but it was something I had never thought about before. And once again:

''_This is about the Traitor Legions being forced to live in Hell, in the wake of their primarchs abandoning them and evolving to a higher plane of life; and a new breed of Chaos Marine rising from the rubble._''

To me the Black Legion were the Sons of Horus with a new lick of paint, who gradually assimilated other Astartes. Not, ''a new breed of Chaos Marine'' who, from the base up, have cast aside their previous divisions to form a new fighting machine, hardened by their experiences in the Eye of Terror. I'm not a simpleton, but it's quotes like the above which exercise my brain in different and enjoyable ways, and I feel that's the greatest thing an author working for an already existing and borrowed setting can achieve.

It's things like that which make me want to reread his novels with the same passion I rewatch 80s anime -- another pastime close to my heart. So, yeah, good luck, and I may even brave one of those loathsome hardbacks at the first opportunity.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

bobss said:


> I feel as if ADB 'gets' the essence of 40k lore in all its grimdark appeal, whereas so many other authors can't -- or at least not A) to the same extent or B) on a regular and replicable basis. What I've read never fails to provide new and interesting angles to view the setting with, be it the large or small picture, that also mesh with previously established material. Even to this day little things such as, say, the Night Lords' conceit and elitism towards renegades in the Maelstrom stick with me (if I dreamt that moment, my rather enjoyable Spring of 2011 will come crashing down). Why? I don't quite know. This interaction between one of the founding Legions and a much more recent turncoat group feels so natural, but it was something I had never thought about before. And once again:
> 
> ''_This is about the Traitor Legions being forced to live in Hell, in the wake of their primarchs abandoning them and evolving to a higher plane of life; and a new breed of Chaos Marine rising from the rubble._''
> 
> To me the Black Legion were the Sons of Horus with a new lick of paint, who gradually assimilated other Astartes. Not, ''a new breed of Chaos Marine'' who, from the base up, have cast aside their previous divisions to form a new fighting machine, hardened by their experiences in the Eye of Terror. I'm not a simpleton, but it's quotes like the above which exercise my brain in different and enjoyable ways, and I feel that's the greatest thing an author working for an already existing and borrowed setting can achieve.
> 
> It's things like that which make me want to reread his novels with the same passion I rewatch 80s anime -- another pastime close to my heart. So, yeah, good luck, and I may even brave one of those loathsome hardbacks at the first opportunity.


I silently bookmarked this post for my personal, secret feedback file, then decided to post to explain my immense gratitude. I don't have the words to adequately explain how much I appreciate this point of view, because it's exactly what I'm hoping to achieve by writing in the setting. Hell, it's practically our only mandate, even if it's a silent assumption rather than an ironclad law. 

So often, you see reviews (thankfully, not too often for my work, or I'd be in tears) that say "This is different to what I expected about Faction X, so it's wrong, and it sucks." But that's just... it's so blithely, snidely against what 40K is about. So much nuance and depth of the setting doesn't necessarily come across in the rulebooks. So much of it is down to personal interpretation and deeper perspective, or stuff that's not always made clear in the short Codex overviews. When people take those little overviews as Everything There Is, rather than the broadest strokes of the brush meant to inspire your own imagination, that way lies madness and misunderstanding.

tl;dr - Thanks. That's one of the coolest, insightful-feeling things anyone's ever said about my work, and I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to say it.

On a related note: 

_"My Legion bears no number – it was not founded by the Emperor and it never fought at his side. We were born in the centuries after those days of defeat. Numbers were only bestowed upon the Legions of the Great Crusade. We are the Legion of the Long War."_


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## Garrak

You just love to tease us, don't you? That quote alone makes it clear that the BL are not simply Sons with a different color scheme. Btw, now you've got me wondering why did they pick that color and name and just how much symbolism is in there (well the Legion one is made obvious in that quote)? 

Generally I'm not a fan of CSM books (I got the word bearer trilogy from a friend and Storm of Iron which was my first 40k anything ever) but I loved the Night Lords trilogy. You know what made me pick up that trilogy? When I saw who wrote it. Since then I've bought every book by ADB because I know it's going to be awesome. Last week I finished Betrayer and it was great (Kharn and Argel Tal were a delight to read). So I can't wait for this series because I know ADB will do some awesome stuff with this and turn our expectations on their heads. 

That said, I'm still hoping you'll write another IG book somewhere down the line.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Garrak said:


> Btw, now you've got me wondering why did they pick that color and name and just how much symbolism is in there (well the Legion one is made obvious in that quote)?


Assuming AD-B goes down the same route as the brief sentence in the codex which answers this question: "Abaddon's first edicts rejected the name of Horus and their ancient Legion title. He ordered his remaining Chaos Space Marines to repaint their armour black in eternal memory of their shame..."

There is such a rich body of material to draw from for this series, that at the very least, the plot will be exciting. The retreat into the Eye; the worship of each Chaos God in turn and the possession of many Sons of Horus; the decimation of the Sons of Horus and their defeat in the inter-legionary wars; the cloning of Horus; the rise of Abaddon and his utter rejection of his father and god; Abaddon's daemonic pacts and acquisition of the gods favour and relics. Etc. The new codex has also put a lot more emphasis on the 13th Black Crusade being Abaddon's ultimate endgame, and the previous 12 being prerequisites. I wonder if that is the path Aaron will take.

All of this has got me in the mood to go re-read Aaron's prologue short story for this series now.


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## Malus Darkblade

@COTE: did he post the prologue on his blog? If so I could not find it. A link would be appreciated unless it's in an anthology from a BL event or something.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> @COTE: did he post the prologue on his blog? If so I could not find it. A link would be appreciated unless it's in an anthology from a BL event or something.


Black Library Games Day Anthology 12/13. So no link, sorry.


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## Lord of the Night

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> _"My Legion bears no number – it was not founded by the Emperor and it never fought at his side. We were born in the centuries after those days of defeat. Numbers were only bestowed upon the Legions of the Great Crusade. We are *the Legion of the Long War*."_


Oh man... that is an epic title. :shok:


LotN


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## MontytheMighty

Lord of the Night said:


> So much to love already. :grin:
> 
> 
> Lord of the Night said:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by ADB Twitter
> Evacuating Prospero; winged Dark Eldar women; talking to Rubricae; and strangling one of the Emperor's Children. On to Chapter II.
Click to expand...

He really does seem to have a thing for strangling. 

Curze strangling Lion, Talos strangling loyalists, now some EC being strangled. 

Generally, I find EC to be pretty annoying, so I'll probably enjoy this for once


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

MontytheMighty said:


> He really does seem to have a thing for strangling.
> 
> Curze strangling Lion, Talos strangling loyalists, now some EC being strangled.
> 
> Generally, I find EC to be pretty annoying, so I'll probably enjoy this for once


More people are stabbed, shot or beaten to death over the course of seven novels. In books about war and murder, there are only so many ways to kill people.


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## bitsandkits

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> More people are stabbed, shot or beaten to death over the course of seven novels. In books about war and murder, there are only so many ways to kill people.


you can get inventive, what about murder by the insertion of lego bricks


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## Tawa

bitsandkits said:


> you can get inventive, what about murder by the insertion of lego bricks


Tried that with my little brother once.....


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

bitsandkits said:


> you can get inventive, what about murder by the insertion of lego bricks


...I'm stealing this.


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## Lord of the Night

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> ...I'm stealing this.


Space Marines killing each other with lego...

Lego Warhammer 40k video game anyone??


LotN


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## Vaz

Tawa said:


> Tried that with my little brother once.....


Was their lubrickant involved?


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## Tawa

Lord of the Night said:


> Lego Warhammer 40k video game anyone?


Can I get a "HELL YEAH!!!" ? :blush:



Vaz said:


> Was their lubrickant involved?


Butter qualifies as lubricant, right?


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## Gree

While I certainly welcome the thought of a Black Legion series to give Abaddon and his boys some credibility, given how much of a joke he has become in recent years because of a certain failure meme, I perhaps can't quite muster proper enthusiasm for this book.

I mean, I course I'm happy that the Black Legion are getting a novel, from what I'm hearing from A D-B does not really match up with what frankly drew me into the army in the first place.

To me, the Black Legion was the Sons of Horus, or a proper continuation of them. The XVI Legion if you will. These teasers for the upcoming concept have me cringe in disappointment, no offense intended to the author.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Gree said:


> While I certainly welcome the thought of a Black Legion series to give Abaddon and his boys some credibility, given how much of a joke he has become in recent years because of a certain failure meme, I perhaps can't quite muster proper enthusiasm for this book.
> 
> I mean, I course I'm happy that the Black Legion are getting a novel, from what I'm hearing from A D-B does not really match up with what frankly drew me into the army in the first place.
> 
> To me, the Black Legion was the Sons of Horus, or a proper continuation of them. The XVI Legion if you will. These teasers for the upcoming concept have me cringe in disappointment, no offense intended to the author.


Whilst that may have been your interpretation, if you look closely at the lore, that has never actually been the case. The Black Legion was _never_ just the Sons of Horus with a different paint-job and leader; it was an unprecedented amalgamation; a new Legion. For example:



Codex: Chaos Space Marines said:


> The Black Legion is a loose coalition built upon the remnants of the ancient Sons of Horus Legion...


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## Gree

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Whilst that may have been your interpretation, if you look closely at the lore, that has never actually been the case. The Black Legion was _never_ just the Sons of Horus with a different paint-job and leader; it was an unprecedented amalgamation; a new Legion. For example:


And yet that does not change my point at all. That was not what drew me to play Black Legion nor does that sound appealing to me as a hobbyist. Even then I always interpreted it as the XVI being present in some form, at least as the core of the Black Legion.

Did I accept the fact that others joined the Black Legion? Certainly! It's one of the reasons why I chose it, for the Black Legion's versatility. But for the XVI Legion to be utterly gone and replaced with something completely new? That was not an interpretation that I followed nor do I enjoy it.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

Gree said:


> And yet that does not change my point at all. That was not what drew me to play Black Legion nor does that sound appealing to me as a hobbyist. Even then I always interpreted it as the XVI being present in some form, at least as the core of the Black Legion.
> 
> Did I accept the fact that others joined the Black Legion? Certainly! It's one of the reasons why I chose it, for the Black Legion's versatility. But for the XVI Legion to be utterly gone and replaced with something completely new? That was not an interpretation that I followed nor do I enjoy it.


They're still there. They're the thematic Main Event, so to speak. But the Imperium hasn't seen anything like the Black Legion before. The Black Legion aren't the Sons of Horus, but you'll have entire warbands that once were, absolutely. I'd say they're definitely the core. Just not the concept. Something I always try to do is make it clear that I never speak for the entire army. I try to show one force's presence and customs, in the context of a wider theme. 

Most of the Black Legion's inner circle are former Sons of Horus, f'rex. But the Sons failed, and their resurrection was into a new form, with new goals, to shake off the failures of the past, rather than a new paintjob for a go at Round 2. One is a dynamic reformation, the other just plays into the endless failure memes: "Well, we lost last time, but _this time_...". 

Having your primarch be a humiliating failure (and then being the Legion That Ran Away once he died...) will have a more profound effect than a new coat of paint. They have a lot of failure and shame to overcome. And it's been shown several times in the background that they were driven "to the edge of extinction". That's not easy to come back from. That's some serious juju.

That said, there's a reason they shout "We are returned." 

It's sort of the ultimate way of having your cake and eating it.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

On a different note, has anyone else read Aaron's short story _Extinction_? 



It describes Abaddon as a "pilgrim in hell" who has abandoned both the _Vengeful Spirit_ and his Legion, the former in order to prevent those who seek to claim her from doing so, and the latter seemingly because he no longer cares. It describes him as being well travelled amongst the Eye, his driving forces being "curiosity" and "hatred". He is described as avoiding all contact with his former Legion and it's descent into extinction. It will be interesting to see how this line develops in terms of what he is seeking, and how it will drive him back into the fold of his dying Legion.


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## Malus Darkblade

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Having your primarch be a humiliating failure (and then being the Legion That Ran Away once he died...) will have a more profound effect than a new coat of paint. They have a lot of failure and shame to overcome.


I've never understood how tactically retreating from a larger/dominant force = the Sons of Horus 'ran away'.

Or how Horus's defeat was 'humiliating' despite crippling the Emperor and causing irreversible damage to the Imperium.

Following that rationale, Abaddon's twelve crusades, despite us not knowing what his goals were, could be seen as failures just like the Abaddonfail memes suggest.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> I've never understood how tactically retreating from a larger/dominant force = the Sons of Horus 'ran away'.


The Sons of Horus didn't tactically retreat, they literally ran away, earning themselves the ire of the other rebel Legions. Their cause was lost and their god was dead. They didn't intend to remain on Terra, only making the astute decision to retreat due to the en-route loyal Legions, they fled like cowards. Despite having breached the Imperial Palace and being on the cusp of victory, they fled because Horus had died.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Or how Horus's defeat was 'humiliating' despite crippling the Emperor and causing irreversible damage to the Imperium.


Not much of a consolation. The objective of the Heresy was to suplant the Emperor and enthrone Horus. They failed, and in doing so lost their purpose and reason for existence. Thus they fled in shame. The Sons of Horus lost everything when Horus fell.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Malus Darkblade said:


> I've never understood how tactically retreating from a larger/dominant force = the Sons of Horus 'ran away'.
> 
> Or how Horus's defeat was 'humiliating' despite crippling the Emperor and causing irreversible damage to the Imperium.
> 
> Following that rationale, Abaddon's twelve crusades, despite us not knowing what his goals were, could be seen as failures just like the Abaddonfail memes suggest.


It's a sticky matter, I know. According to the lore, the Black Crusades haven't failed. They were crusades to achieve specific goals, and they apparently succeeded. 

However, Horus is regarded as a failure by the Black Legion, and the Legion Wars that happen after the Scouring are a direct result of the Siege of Terra. It's not something that's seen a lot of airtime, but the Sons of Horus don't retreat in the face of a large or more dominant force. Their primarch dies, and despite the fact the Traitor Legions are on the edge of victory, the Sons of Horus retreat. They quite literally flee, concerned only with the fact that Horus has just died. This is what the lore's always stated. 

This leaves the other Traitor Legions without the vanguard of their attack force, and the core of their leadership. The Sons of Horus are the first Legion to run from Terra, abandoning the others to Imperial guns. It's considered "a moment of weakness" to use the exact quote, that they pay for in time.

That translates later into the Legion Wars. When the Traitor Legions fight amongst themselves in the Eye of Terror, they heavily, heavily focus on the Sons of Horus, who they now despise as weaklings and cowards. The Sons of Horus are driven almost to extinction, and their last stronghold is destroyed. 

It's all about perspective. The meme of Abaddon's failure is, at its core, not actually true. It's people not quite grasping the scale of 40K, and the scale of 40K not quite being related too brilliantly in the material. A single crusade was to retake a city, or eradicate a small cult, not to destroy all of Islam or conquer an entire continent. Same with Black Crusades. They're to achieve specific goals, not to topple the Golden Throne.

But regarding Horus, the Black Legion absolutely regard Horus as a failure. He died - and he wasn't just defeated, he was also shamed (remember, Horus comes back to himself at the very end, believing he's made a mistake). Part of the reason the Black Legion comes to be is to shake off the lingering shame of being the Sons of Horus. The sons of a failure, who were themselves failures when they ran from Terra.

That's the key. No one _wants_ to be a Son of Horus, by the time the Legion wars are ending. It's not something to be proud of. The son of a failure, and part of The Legion That Fled; the Legion that lost the war for the Traitors.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Thanks CotE. Wasn't aware the SoH were inches away from a victory.

@ADB: Thanks for the great response. A few quick questions though. 

Will the AL feature at all in Talon of Horus? 

And what of the surviving traitor Primarchs? Will they be partaking in the SoH ass kicking? How does Abaddon's rise to prominence sit with them? Do the Chaos powers tell them to chill like how Tzeentech did with Magnus moments before he was going to kill Ahriman?


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Malus Darkblade said:


> Will the AL feature at all in Talon of Horus?


If not in _The Talon of Horus,_ then definitely at some point in _The Black Legion_ or _Chaos Ascendant_. They have to make it into the first arc somewhere, yeah. There's a certain Alpha Legionnaire I envision as a major Black Legion character that I want to show up, but I don't know if he'll make it into the first book.



Malus Darkblade said:


> And what of the surviving traitor Primarchs? Will they be partaking in the SoH ass kicking? How does Abaddon's rise to prominence sit with them? Do the Chaos powers tell them to chill like how Tzeentech did with Magnus moments before he was going to kill Ahriman?


The Traitor Primarchs will very, very definitely enter into proceedings as the Black Legion rises and Abaddon is named Warmaster of Chaos. They ascend to the Great Game fairly quickly, and don't have a lot of concern for mortal matters, but yes, expect them to feature somewhere in the opening arc / first trilogy.


----------



## Gree

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> It's a sticky matter, I know. According to the lore, the Black Crusades haven't failed. They were crusades to achieve specific goals, and they apparently succeeded.


There is certainly lore to suggest otherwise. Even putting aside what scanty information we have on how the Black Crusades went or the results of the 12th and 13th turned out, Honsou and Marduk certainly disparage Abaddon over his alleged failures.


----------



## Vaz

Please don't have them God Mod themselves in everywhere. It seems to be a chronic isse that books not focused on the AL seem to have whenever they appear. As much as I love AL, and try to come from an objective point of view, the AL are either a worfism, or are always one step ahead with no seeming reason why other than "AL, lol".



Gree said:


> There is certainly lore to suggest otherwise. Even putting aside what scanty information we have on how the Black Crusades went or the results of the 12th and 13th turned out, Honsou and Marduk certainly disparage Abaddon over his alleged failures.


Ever seen puppies trying to take down the Dog of a pack after a percieved failure? I don't like the wolf-pack analogy, but Abaddon is the fucker who would be able to break Honsou on his knee. Marduk, I've not read the WB novels, but his own Dark Crusade achieved sweet FA. Abaddon's; sure, the Gothic War didn't achieve the full expectation; but it got 2 Blackstone Fortresses.

The 13th BC was handwaved away in typical GW "oh shit we didn't intend that, lets ignore it".


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Gree said:


> Their is certainly lore to suggest otherwise.


The opinions of individuals like Marduk, Honsou or Talos are hardly conclusive. And really, that is all the evidence there is to suggest Abaddon's Crusades were failures. People seem to judge them as failures because they didn't topple the Emperor from the Golden Throne, which, in my mind, is a very narrow-minded view.



Gree said:


> Even putting aside what scanty information we have on how the Black Crusades went or how the 12th and 13th turned out


What were the objectives of the 12th and 13th Crusades though?

We know the 13th's objective is to establish the "Crimson Path", something Abaddon is well on the way to achieving.

And the Gothic War's objective? Who knows. But Abaddon acquired two Talismans of Vaul, as well as the Eye of Night and Hand of Darkness.



Vaz said:


> Please don't have them God Mod themselves in everywhere. It seems to be a chronic isse that books not focused on the AL seem to have whenever they appear. As much as I love AL, and try to come from an objective point of view, the AL are either a worfism, or are always one step ahead with no seeming reason why other than "AL, lol".


I mostly blame Gav Thorpe for that portrayal. The initial portrayal in Abnett's _Legion_ was perfect.


----------



## Gree

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The opinions of individuals like Marduk, Honsou or Talos is hardly conclusive. And really, that is all the evidence there is to suggest Abaddon's Crusades were failures.


I don't speak of Honsou of Talos in that regard. I can provide at least one explicit quote from the EOT Newsletter that Abaddon's previous eleven crusades failed in their objectives if you like.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> We know the 13th's objective is to establish the "Crimson Path", something Abaddon is well on the way to achieving.


That can certainly be contested if you wish, going by the results of the EOT Newsletter, or the fact that the Imperium is still standing as of the Cain novels.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And the Gothic War's objective? Who knows. But Abaddon acquired two Talismans of Vaul, as well as the Eye of Night and Hand of Darkness.


A partial success at best with Abaddon ultimately retreating and the Gothic Sector brought back under Imperial control.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Gree said:


> There is certainly lore to suggest otherwise. Even putting aside what scanty information we have on how the Black Crusades went or the results of the 12th and 13th turned out, Honsou and Marduk certainly disparage Abaddon over his alleged failures.


The 13th Black Crusade, in the lore, hasn't happened yet according to the recent background. It's about to happen, or in the process of happening. But it's the culmination of 10,000 years of prophecy that the End Times will come, and even taking the now-defunct and ignore global campaign of over a decade ago into consideration (which is being generous, at best) the Cadian Gate is broken open, and the Traitor Legions have unprecedented access to the Imperium 'now'. 

Talos disparages Abaddon, too. It's perspective. It doesn't mean he's right, any more than Marduk or Honsou. It's his perspective as a guy on the frontlines, who knows absolutely nothing of Abaddon's goals. 

Your posts are the perfect example of why this is such an uphill struggle. That's not your fault at all, but it's difficult to fight against decades of assumptions so often taken as ironclad fact. I mean, I know you from here and B&C - you're a smart guy and your posts are consistently awesome and well-thought-out, but you know what I mean. I'm speaking in generalities, etc.



Vaz said:


> Please don't have them God Mod themselves in everywhere. It seems to be a chronic isse that books not focused on the AL seem to have whenever they appear. As much as I love AL, and try to come from an objective point of view, the AL are either a worfism, or are always one step ahead with no seeming reason why other than "AL, lol".


Trust me, I despise that trope as much as anyone, if not moreso.

I like the way they've been presented in the lore here and there, but it's a one-sided injustice to show that and only that. Sure, have cults and infiltrators foreshadowing an invasion. Then have tens of thousands of Alpha Legion Marines descend in drop pods, damn it. That's not unusual. _That's what they do,_ almost all the time.It shouldn't be seen as a rarity in the lore. They have a lot of flavour on the side, to spice up their main method of operation. Right now, there's a risk that wearing another Chapter/Legion's armour and pretending to be someone else is all they're ever seen to do. And that's cool at first, cute after a while, but disingenuous and silly if it's all we see.



Vaz said:


> Ever seen puppies trying to take down the Dog of a pack after a percieved failure? I don't like the wolf-pack analogy, but Abaddon is the fucker who would be able to break Honsou on his knee. Marduk, I've not read the WB novels, but his own Dark Crusade achieved sweet FA. Abaddon's; sure, the Gothic War didn't achieve the full expectation; but it got 2 Blackstone Fortresses.
> 
> The 13th BC was handwaved away in typical GW "oh shit we didn't intend that, lets ignore it".


True blue. EDIT: Well, sort of. Nothing so blunt. You could argue that it's not really the purview of an old, old store campaign (played by a tiiiiiny fraction of the fanbase) to determine so much vital stuff, set in stone decades later. Plus, the way its ending was presented wasn't always clear. The Cadian Gate was broken, but people forget that and focus on "LOL ABADDON'S GOT NO REINFORCEMENTS ON CADIA."

Uh, no. He doesn't need them. He's smashed through.

But even so, this is all irrelevant, as we've both stated. The Crimson Path is what's happening now.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Gree said:


> I don't speak of Honsou of Talos in that regard. I can provide at least one explicit quote from the EOT Newsletter that Abaddon's previous eleven crusades failed in their objectives if you like.


I can cite that the Ultramarines used to have a half-eldar Librarian. 

Times change. That was a store campaign, what, 10-15 years ago? It's meaningless. That's not me saying it; it's as brazenly meaningless as GW will ever be about something like this. I appreciate it means something to your perspective, but it might be worth bearing in mind that no material in the last few years has dealt with it, and none is likely to deal with it ever again. You can cling to it, or see which way the wind is blowing on that score. But clinging to it will keep these misunderstandings happening.

EDIT: Besides, I'm not going to give credence to a newsletter over all of the Black Legion lore I've got from every single published source since the setting started. Even if the store campaign mattered, a newsletter is... Dude, it's less than nothing.



Gree said:


> That can certainly be contested if you wish, going by the results of the EOT Newsletter, or the fact that the Imperium is still standing as of the Cain novels.


The Imperium is set at 2 minutes to midnight. The 13th Black Crusade in full swing is midnight. You're sort of challenging me like I'm putting forth a difficult opinion, when I'm kinda just relating the setting's facts. 

Cain is... Cain. There's no canon, so to speak, but... Cain is... Cain. Take it with a pinch of salt. I'm not saying the Imperium goes out like a light the moment Abaddon sets sail. But read between the lines of the setting, and it shouldn't be too hard to see what's going on.


----------



## Gree

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I can cite that the Ultramarines used to have a half-eldar Librarian.
> 
> Times change. That was a store campaign, what, 10-15 years ago? It's meaningless. That's not me saying it; it's as brazenly meaningless as GW will ever be about something like this. I appreciate it means something to your perspective, but it might be worth bearing in mind that no material in the last few years has dealt with it, and none is likely to deal with it ever again. You can cling to it, or see which way the wind is blowing on that score. But clinging to it will keep these misunderstandings happening.


I am somewhat perplexed by this statement, given your own Cadian Blood dealt with the events of the 13th Crusade and we have other recent novel like Atlas Infernal dealing with the 13th in full swing.



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> The Imperium is set at 2 minutes to midnight. The 13th Black Crusade in full swing is midnight. You're sort of challenging me like I'm putting forth a difficult opinion, when I'm kinda just relating the setting's facts.


If one disregards said campaign, then yes, everything is suitably ambiguous with the forces of Chaos standing yet at the cusp of the 13th Crusade. I certainly have no problem with that.

If one takes the results of the 13th Black Crusade, then yes, the Crimson Path and the success or failure of Abaddon can most certainly be questioned. That is essentially the point of view I am responding to. Having been on both sides of the argument, I thought it only fair to bring up any issues.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Gree said:


> I am somewhat perplexed by this statement, given your own Cadian Blood dealt with the events of the 13th Crusade and we have other recent novel like Atlas Infernal dealing with the 13th in full swing.


Yes and no. It's "happening" (though _Cadian Blood_ was also an edition or two ago, too - and times change), or it's "just about to happen", but conjecture on how it ended is what everyone's trying to avoid.



Gree said:


> If one disregards said campaign, then yes, everything is suitably ambiguous with the forces of Chaos standing yet at the cusp of the 13th Crusade. I certainly have no problem with that.
> 
> If one takes the results of the 13th Black Crusade, then yes, the Crimson Path and the success or failure of Abaddon can most certainly be questioned. That is essentially the point of view I am responding to. Having been on both sides of the argument, I thought it only fair to bring up any issues.


For really reals. The thing here is that you're not wrong, not at all, in anything you're saying. We both know that. It's just the way the license works. With you, it's a cool discussion between two fans who know a bunch if the ins and outs. With some folks, me saying any of this would be heresy, and a surefire path to one-star reviews because "ADB doesn't know stuff". 

Bit of a nightmare, when GW don't clarify things like this, but the license is what it is. I still love it to bits, I just wish the direction from HQ was louder, or the fandom quicker on the uptake in regards to how it works.


----------



## mal310

Have to say I'm really liking the sound of all this. Will the fate of Cthonia feature? Or any of the traitors homeworlds for that matter?


----------



## Vaz

It means fuck all, but +Rep. ADB, i can clearly understand why authors do not want to participate with the unwashed masses who buy the books (quite possibly, in all respects, too true, despite meant as a joke). Too many (including myself: TFH i couldn't eally stand your take on the Custodes for example) people have preconceptions that are altered when it comes to getting stuff in a form they are not used to: ie the hobbit film, or how people interpret the custodes when all they have is a picture to go off). 

You manage to take your time, pinch your nose, and go balls deep with us. I respect that dude.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Vaz said:


> It means fuck all, but +Rep. ADB, i can clearly understand why authors do not want to participate with the unwashed masses who buy the books (quite possibly, in all respects, too true, despite meant as a joke). Too many (including myself: TFH i couldn't eally stand your take on the Custodes for example) people have preconceptions that are altered when it comes to getting stuff in a form they are not used to: ie the hobbit film, or how people interpret the custodes when all they have is a picture to go off).
> 
> You manage to take your time, pinch your nose, and go balls deep with us. I respect that dude.


Agree completely. I can see so easily why others authors would stay away from the boards or would give up after a while. But that you keep on coming on, patiently reiterating, clarifying or correcting issues around both your novels and others, is really quite impressive and highly appreciated. It really is quite unique to get an author to explain so much about what they did/are doing/plan to do with their own novels and give general information on Black Library itself and how it works behind the scene.

Like Vaz said, lot of respect. Cheers.


----------



## bobss

Honestly, it's just _too_ easy to hate adaptations. Taking a fresh look at something you love is much more difficult than resigning yourself to an elitist perspective -- the latter of which is the modus operandi for a lot of forums. I liken it to getting up off your arse to being absorbed into your leather suite.

As humans we're afraid of change, especially that which is outside of our ability to affect, because it _can_ be the herald of something negative. Even within the context of Black Library publications or newer fluff in the Codices, something may not appeal to me, or just outright irritate me. Nowadays I'll go into a book with an open mind, but there's no guarantee I'll like it -- I just know that I've given it a chance. It makes me feel better, and I'm sure it makes the author feel better.

I've seen a lot of people get worked up over the notion of a newer instalment somehow replacing an older one in relation to canon (and that canon is somehow the ultimate arbiter of enjoyment) thereby rendering the older one obsolete. This is common for GW Codices, I guess, but I don't believe Black Library publications function that way.

I say a lot of this out of experience, having spent a good deal of early-mid 2010 whining about ADB bagging the Word Bearers over Reynolds in the Horus Heresy. Looking back, it was an unfounded and unhealthy criticism. Unhealthy because obsessing over the status quo creates stagnancy, which is _far_ worse than the odd _Battle for the Abyss_ popping up.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Must admit that these comments are really changing my view on the Black Legion.

Before the 6th edition my opinion/view/thoughts on the Black Legion were pretty much the standard. The Sons of Horus mainly with the dregs of other Legions that signed up with them to hitch their wagons to Abaddon's caravan and try and catch some glory. Of course they've failed 12 times and the current Black Crusade doesn't appear like it will succeed either, yes Abaddon has broken through the Cadian Gate but with all the other Traitor Legion lords plotting against him, the Imperium and Eldar working against him and the Chaos forces without any real goal beyond charge the gate and break through.

I also did not see any real identity to the Black Legion beyond we are Abaddon's men. They seemed similar to the Red Corsairs in that anyone can join, but the Black Legion is more of an identity than being a Red Corsair, but where the Red Corsairs have a real personality as pirates, the Black Legion just seemed like vanilla Chaos Space Marines. No devotion beyond Abaddon, and most of the Black Legionnaires we see tended to be the guys who lost. Araghast the Pillager; Urkrathos the Lord Ravager; Zaraphiston and his apprentice.

But with 6th edition things have clearly changed. Prior I was a subscriber to the Failbaddon belief. Now, I think he is going to win. The Crimson Path is a plan that could work, and the Black Crusade seems direr than ever. The Night Lords will take the fight to Ulthwe; Erebus has summoned an army of a million Daemons; the Daemon Primarchs are getting involved (possibly); the Planet Killer has returned; the Imperials are cut off from reinforcements; and each of the Four Champions has brought an army to the warzone to battle. Add in the problems of the Green Krusade, increased Dark Eldar raids on Imperial Worlds, Necron uprisings in the Scarus Sector and a splinter fleet of Leviathan is approaching Obscurus; and the situation is pretty damn grim.

And Abaddon is starting to seem much more competent through all of that. Before we knew nothing of his plan beyond kill the Emperor, now we know and it makes a huge difference. He's the man with the plan now, the plan that could actually work if the Traitors can keep up the momentum long enough. Knowing what he intends to do is, I think, what makes Abaddon appear so much cooler now, sometimes yes not knowing is better but this is not one of those times.

As for the Black Legion your comments ADB have made me rethink my assessment of them. The idea that the core of the Legion is still the Sons of Horus, but the rest of the Legion as a melting pot is an interesting one. As is the idea of them being completely distinct from the Sons of Horus rather than just a resurrection of them, but with a new name to distance themselves from Horus. The Legion of the Long War; really sticks in your mind as you consider the implications of it. A Legion with an identity that transcends gene-seed, origin and individual beliefs. United in hate, as you said, and bound together by Abaddon's will and power. It speaks volumes about Abaddon's character that he alone can marshal this diverse group of marines, many of whom come from Legions that despise and kill each other on sight, into a fighting force that has the potential to topple the Imperium and lead the Forces of Chaos into war.

There is one thing i'm curious about. The Chosen of Abaddon. Will they feature in the series? Perhaps a better idea about exactly what it is each one of them does? Oh and exactly which members hold what rank. That sort of thing.


LotN


----------



## forkmaster

I take it we will see more of Widowmaker then?  And thanks for the replies, much appreciated with the info. also _Extiction_ is really good.


----------



## Sequere_me_in_Tenebras

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Think of it like Troy. All those heroes died in the Trojan War, except for a small handful that went on to their own adventures. Odysseus had his Odyssey. Aeneas went to found the city of Alba Longa with the Latins. A few hundred years later, the last lords of Troy were mostly gone, and the first lords of Rome took their place.


I appreciate this sentiment so much, a good comparison. Really for reals.

It's been suggested many times over that time within the warp, well, is just that. One year could be one hundred in the Eye. However in real space, the Imperium has endured 10,000 years (give or take) between the HH and The 13th Black Crusade. People die, children are born, factions change, new leaders arise, technology is lost, new ideas are discovered, civilisations change, names and events are lost, evidence is lost over time, turning to myth... you get the idea (I should really employ full stops more often). 

I always apply my own learnings when it comes to the application of ancient history (in academia) and the universe of 30k/40k. I feel this is a similar type of structure that ADB applies to some of his works? Hey I could be wrong.


----------



## Lord of the Night

A new tidbit on the coming Black Legion series, specifically the identity of one of the Founders of the Black Legion. The Fallen Angel, according to a tweet from ADB.



[email protected] said:


> This Fallen Angel, one of the Black Legion's founders, has the same weapons as Lion-O. I'm not even ashamed.


Interesting. So he has a sword that shoots energy and a shield with grappling claws... that is pretty cool.


LotN


----------



## Tyrannus

Lord of the Night said:


> Interesting. So he has a sword that shoots energy and a shield with grappling claws... that is pretty cool.


What about sight beyond sight?


----------



## Phoebus

No words yet on Sight Beyond Sight... but I am excited to see a telescoping sword and a power fist with digits that can be used as grappling hooks! :biggrin:


----------



## MontytheMighty

I'm guessing the Fallen Angel is a Fallen Dark Angel?


----------



## Phoebus

A safe bet, I would think. Though it could be a Blood Angel traitor who unwittingly chose what would end up being the most frustrating sobriquet ever. :wink:


----------



## forkmaster

My bets would be on a Dark Angel!


----------



## MontytheMighty

I remember there was a total badass Fallen Dark Angel in the Blood Angels comic strip in Warhammer Monthly. He was a pretty cool character.


----------



## Phoebus

You're talking about 'Bloodquest', right? He was a follower of Tzeentch, if my memory serves me right.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Yeah, he handed Leonatos his arse before the BA captain got his hands on a relic sword (or something like that)


----------



## Chompy Bits

I really can't wait for this series. I especially want to see how ADB handles how the various characters of the traitor legions put all their issues aside (especially after the legion wars in the Eye) to create the Black Legion. How does Abaddon convince the others to form a new legion around the remnants of the "cowards" who fled Terra. Not to mention how the marines of the various legions interact with each other. I can't imagine the former Iron Warriors and Emperor's Children, for example, would get on very well after the events of _Angel Exterminatus_.


----------



## Anakwanar

> I really can't wait for this series. I especially want to see how ADB handles how the various characters of the traitor legions put all their issues aside (especially after the legion wars in the Eye) to create the Black Legion. How does Abaddon convince the others to form a new legion around the remnants of the "cowards" who fled Terra. Not to mention how the marines of the various legions interact with each other. I can't imagine the former Iron Warriors and Emperor's Children, for example, would get on very well after the events of Angel Exterminatus.


 - it would be by 3 simple facts:
1) You will recruit to my new Legion - if not, you will die
2) For hedonists and students i (great Abbadon) will provide a highly emotional and learning tours to the Imperium space via Black Crusades - tickets on sale, only at my Legion - if not, you will die
3) New powers from Chaos Undivided - you brain would be filled with learning, you face fully corrupted with bubos and pustules; your hands would run red and your ass will receive a rapist attention - and, if not, you will die.
Something like that


----------



## bobss

Keep seeing posts in this thread.

No cover art.

Why me sad.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

An interesting titbit popped up today on the BL blog. In the new Death Company Index Astartes supplement, AD-B's new character Iskandar Khayon is mentioned as being present during Abaddon's 7th Black Crusade:





> c.811.M37 - The Ghost War
> 
> During the long years of the Seventh Black Crusade, the full might of the Blood Angels Chapter falls upon a vast Black Legion warband on the world of Mackan. Although the conflict ultimately ends in the near-extinction of the Blood Angels at the hands of Abaddon the Despoiler and his primary lieutenants – the sorcerer-lord Iskandar Khayon and the swordmaster Telemachon Lyras – the Blood Angels Reclusiarch Thalastian Jorus becomes one of the few Imperial heroes to ever land a blow against the Warmaster of Chaos.
> 
> With his Chapter devastated, the Chaplain endures weeks of hardship in the wilderness and the constant trials of keeping his crazed warriors undetected on Mackan. When the time is right, Jorus leads his Death Company in a lightning raid behind enemy lines, butchering the unprepared sworn warriors of the Despoiler’s honour guard, and allowing the Reclusiarch to lock blades with Abaddon himself. It is said the Warmaster still bears the scars of that battle, even three millennia later.
> 
> Whatever the truth of the matter, it is known that the Despoiler honoured Jorus once the war was over – perhaps in mockery, or perhaps with nothing but sincerity. After Mackan, thousands of Blood Angels corpses were desecrated, their gene-seed ruined beyond recovery. Of all the Chapter, only a handful of bodies were left undefiled: Reclusiarch Jorus and his Death Company, clad in their battered and broken black ceramite, seated in makeshift thrones made from the armour of those Black Legion warriors they had killed on that fateful night.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> An interesting titbit popped up today on the BL blog. In the new Death Company Index Astartes supplement, AD-B's new character Iskandar Khayon is mentioned as being present during Abaddon's 7th Black Crusade:


Holy sh*t! That guy is badass! You know that your a badass among badasses in 40k when the freaking Despoiler tips his hat to you, metaphorically speaking.


LotN


----------



## Angel of Blood

> left undefiled: Reclusiarch Jorus and his Death Company, clad in their battered and broken black ceramite, seated in makeshift thrones made from the armour of those Black Legion warriors they had killed on that fateful night.


Fucking awesome.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> An interesting titbit popped up today on the BL blog. In the new Death Company Index Astartes supplement, AD-B's new character Iskandar Khayon is mentioned as being present during Abaddon's 7th Black Crusade:


I, uh, actually wrote that _Index Astartes: Death Company_ article. 

I mean, I had a lot (no, really, a lot) of feedback on the Black Legion Codex, too. But I totally wrote the _Index Astartes: Death Comapny_ article, hence the specific note, there. 

I did the _Munitorum: Chainswords _article, too.

Hoping to do a few more in the future, but it all comes down to time.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Grr had to be a Blood Angels didn't it, like they don't have anything note worthy to celebrate


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Words_of_Truth said:


> Grr had to be a Blood Angels didn't it, like they don't have anything note worthy to celebrate


It's old lore; I wasn't gonna break up old famous events, yo. I just made them, y'know, less... losing-ish. They get a slightly better showing in the article than in previous "They just got slaughtered" lore, and when (if?) I ever get around to the Seventh Black Crusade in the novel series, they'll get a truly vicious appearance there, too.

Though I'm sure there'll be countless Blood Angel fans insisting I hate them.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Words_of_Truth said:


> Grr had to be a Blood Angels didn't it, like they don't have anything note worthy to celebrate


Uh now they do. They impressed Abaddon the Despoiler, the Warmaster of Chaos. He actually gave a gesture of respect to Imperial Space Marines, and at the same time humiliated his own warriors by using them in that way. In a nutshell the Blood Angels lost, but they put up a good enough fight that Abaddon was impressed by it. That is something noteworthy for their lore.



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> And when (if?) I ever get around to the Seventh Black Crusade in the novel series, they'll get a truly vicious appearance there, too.


Epic, perhaps you'll be the first to really capture the might of the Black Rage. Because in my opinion nobody has really managed to do that yet.


LotN


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Lord of the Night said:


> Uh now they do. They impressed Abaddon the Despoiler, the Warmaster of Chaos. He actually gave a gesture of respect to Imperial Space Marines, and at the same time humiliated his own warriors by using them in that way. In a nutshell the Blood Angels lost, but they put up a good enough fight that Abaddon was impressed by it. That is something noteworthy for their lore.
> 
> 
> Epic, perhaps you'll be the first to really capture the might of the Black Rage. Because in my opinion nobody has really managed to do that yet.
> 
> 
> LotN


Oh yeah because Blood Angels have never done anything impressive/famous in the past ;-)


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I, uh, actually wrote that _Index Astartes: Death Company_ article.
> 
> I mean, I had a lot (no, really, a lot) of feedback on the Black Legion Codex, too. But I totally wrote the _Index Astartes: Death Comapny_ article, hence the specific note, there.
> 
> I did the _Munitorum: Chainswords _article, too.
> 
> Hoping to do a few more in the future, but it all comes down to time.


Credit where credit is due then, I guess. Well done!


----------



## Tawa

> With his Chapter devastated, the Chaplain endures weeks of hardship in the wilderness and the constant trials of keeping his crazed warriors undetected on Mackan. When the time is right, Jorus leads his Death Company in a lightning raid behind enemy lines, butchering the unprepared sworn warriors of the Despoiler’s honour guard, and allowing the Reclusiarch to lock blades with Abaddon himself. It is said the Warmaster still bears the scars of that battle, even three millennia later.
> 
> Whatever the truth of the matter, it is known that the Despoiler honoured Jorus once the war was over – perhaps in mockery, or perhaps with nothing but sincerity. After Mackan, thousands of Blood Angels corpses were desecrated, their gene-seed ruined beyond recovery. Of all the Chapter, only a handful of bodies were left undefiled: Reclusiarch Jorus and his Death Company, clad in their battered and broken black ceramite, seated in makeshift thrones made from the armour of those Black Legion warriors they had killed on that fateful night.


Now that is fucking awesome! :so_happy:




Words_of_Truth said:


> Oh yeah because Blood Angels have never done anything impressive/famous in the past ;-)


Nothing that I can think of, no. :wink:


----------



## Angel of Blood

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Though I'm sure there'll be countless Blood Angel fans insisting I hate them.


Nah, you cool.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Words_of_Truth said:


> Oh yeah because Blood Angels have never done anything impressive/famous in the past ;-)


Yeah they have, plenty of it in fact.

The Signus Massacre, the Hives of Hollonan, the Battle of Khartas, the Destruction of the Terrorclaw, the Chapter Civil War, and let's not forget holding both the walls of the Imperial Palace with the Imperial Fists and holding the Eternity Gate with Sanguinius. And the moment at Terra when they went mad and forced the traitors back for a while.



Angel of Blood said:


> Nah, you cool.


Indeed. Fans loved your Ultramarines in _Betrayer_ and _Void Stalker_, no doubt they'll love your Blood Angels if/when you get to write them.


LotN


----------



## Karthak

One thing confuses me. It says thousands of Blood Angels were desecrated. Did they in the 37th millenium blatantly ignore the Codex and decide to expand their numbers past the standard 1000?


----------



## Lord of the Night

Karthak said:


> One thing confuses me. It says thousands of Blood Angels were desecrated. Did they in the 37th millenium blatantly ignore the Codex and decide to expand their numbers past the standard 1000?


I would guess that's it a typo.


LotN


----------



## MontytheMighty

Lord of the Night said:


> Epic, perhaps you'll be the first to really capture the might of the Black Rage. Because in my opinion nobody has really managed to do that yet.


Certainly not James Swallow at any rate...



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> It's old lore; I wasn't gonna break up old famous events, yo. I just made them, y'know, less... losing-ish. They get a slightly better showing in the article than in previous "They just got slaughtered" lore


Where may I read the original lore regarding this Blood Angels vs. Black Legion conflict? 



> After Mackan, thousands of Blood Angels corpses were desecrated


How can there be thousands of Blood Angel corpses if a chapter is around 1,000 space marines? I'm guessing he means "hundreds"?


----------



## Lord of the Night

MontytheMighty said:


> Where may I read the original lore regarding this Blood Angels vs. Black Legion conflict?


http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/7th_Black_Crusade#.Ugtd2G2mWQo

Right there.



MontytheMighty said:


> How can there be thousands of Blood Angel corpses if a chapter is around 1,000 space marines? I'm guessing he means "hundreds"?


See my post above yours.


LotN


----------



## Lord of the Night

I actually have three questions for you ADB about the RotW (_Rise of the Warmaster_) series, two general questions and one regarding a character.

1. You've mentioned a few times that this series is potentially going to be a long-running series similar to _Gaunt's Ghosts_ and _Gotrek and Felix_. But I remember when you said there would be two Night Lords trilogies and that as the first trilogy was written you determined that one would be enough to tell Talos and First Claw's story. Do you think the odds are in favour that _Rise of the Warmaster_ series will be a long running series or that the odds are in favour of a trilogy being the limit for the series??

2. If the series does become a long-running one what content would you say it would feature, by that I mean what exactly qualifies as worthy content to become part of the series. The Black Crusades obviously but are they the limit to it?? Could other noteworthy battles and such involving the Black Legion feature in the series, or entirely new content that you create for the series? I ask because I am curious about the timeframe of the series, if it were to just focus on the Black Crusades then timeskips would be frequent in the series since each one is separated by at least 1000 years, and because of that if there were timeskips it would mean the characters would only be seen in intervals of time across the 10,000 years between the Heresy and the 13th Crusade, but if the Crusades were only a part of the series and it were to feature other things then the series would not only become much larger but we would see much more of the characters and their development across said 10k years. So in a nutshell my question is, could other Black Legion adventures/battles/incidents/etc be a part of the series as much as the Black Crusades or would the crusades be the primary focus of the series??

3. Will the other character mentioned in that extract, Telemachon Lyras, be a prominent character in the series or is he just around in the 7th Crusade??

If you can't answer these yet for whatever reason then I understand and apologies for asking prematurely.


LotN


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Yeah, looks typotastic to me. I'd expect that typo to be fixed in the next weekly update. The blessings of eBooks. 



Lord of the Night said:


> I actually have three questions for you ADB about the RotW (_Rise of the Warmaster_) series, two general questions and one regarding a character.


I'm on a lunchbreak. Hit me.



Lord of the Night said:


> 1. You've mentioned a few times that this series is potentially going to be a long-running series similar to _Gaunt's Ghosts_ and _Gotrek and Felix_. But I remember when you said there would be two Night Lords trilogies and that as the first trilogy was written you determined that one would be enough to tell Talos and First Claw's story. Do you think the odds are in favour that _Rise of the Warmaster_ series will be a long running series or that the odds are in favour of a trilogy being the limit for the series??


My editors were the ones who first suggested it being a long-running series. Originally, I was thinking of doing a couple of post-Heresy novels about the Sons of Horus becoming the Black Legion, and the First Black Crusade, but they essentially said "Why not make it your Gaunt's Ghosts?"

I can't say the odds, for sure. Because of the scale, it's essentially 'The Story of the Chaos Marines', and the scope's basically infinite. There's no shortage of source material, and a truly, truly terrifying amount to write about. 

If there's not a series, it'll be because I got bored, or the editors hate it, or because the first three don't sell. And you can slap any name on the cover, here - I'm completely irrelevant, as the strength of the Chaos IP and Abaddon on the cover will see decent sales alone.



Lord of the Night said:


> 2. If the series does become a long-running one what content would you say it would feature, by that I mean what exactly qualifies as worthy content to become part of the series. The Black Crusades obviously but are they the limit to it?? Could other noteworthy battles and such involving the Black Legion feature in the series, or entirely new content that you create for the series? I ask because I am curious about the timeframe of the series, if it were to just focus on the Black Crusades then timeskips would be frequent in the series since each one is separated by at least 1000 years, and because of that if there were timeskips it would mean the characters would only be seen in intervals of time across the 10,000 years between the Heresy and the 13th Crusade, but if the Crusades were only a part of the series and it were to feature other things then the series would not only become much larger but we would see much more of the characters and their development across said 10k years. So in a nutshell my question is, could other Black Legion adventures/battles/incidents/etc be a part of the series as much as the Black Crusades or would the crusades be the primary focus of the series??


I suspect the Black Crusades would be the major focal points for a potential series, yeah. One of the main things in my back-and-forth with GW about this (and a major aspect that I constantly harp on about) is that we've seen practically nothing of the Black Crusades in the lore. These aren't raids. These aren't invasions. They're not even wars. Take any one at random. It's a Black Crusade. More than that, it's one of the Real Deal Black Crusades, instigated by the Bringer of the End Times. Most Black Crusades will sweep over dozens/hundreds of worlds, see trillions and trillions dead, and every single one will make the Badab War or the Sabbat Worlds Crusade look like a tea party. They're the Antichrist of 40K raising the Armies of Hell, the Legions of the Underworld. 

So there's a lot (read: endless) scope in that. 

But no, there'd be plenty of other events. Just living in the Eye of Terror would require an immense amount of violence, negotiation, and mythological-style questing, a la the Twelve Tasks of Hercules or the Odyssey. Somewhere in my chaotic (hush, no pun intended) scatter of notes, I've got mentions of the very first time Chaos comes across the tyranids, for example. Or the Tau. Or the newly-emergent Black Legion going to war against the last Sons of Horus. Or the journey to earn the Mark of Chaos Ascendant. And what the Mark of Chaos Ascendant really, honestly means. Because it's not just a star tattooed on your head. 



Lord of the Night said:


> 3. Will the other character mentioned in that extract, Telemachon Lyras, be a prominent character in the series or is he just around in the 7th Crusade??


Oh, no. Telemachon is a major character, around at the founding of the Black Legion. And Khayon despises him.


----------



## Tawa

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> And you can slap any name on the cover, here - I'm completely irrelevant, as the strength of the Chaos IP and Abaddon on the cover will see decent sales alone.


You can always throw my name on there if you want? :wink:


----------



## Lord of the Night

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> My editors were the ones who first suggested it being a long-running series. Originally, I was thinking of doing a couple of post-Heresy novels about the Sons of Horus becoming the Black Legion, and the First Black Crusade, but they essentially said "Why not make it your Gaunt's Ghosts?"
> 
> I can't say the odds, for sure. Because of the scale, it's essentially 'The Story of the Chaos Marines', and the scope's basically infinite. There's no shortage of source material, and a truly, truly terrifying amount to write about.
> 
> If there's not a series, it'll be because I got bored, or the editors hate it, or because the first three don't sell. And you can slap any name on the cover, here - I'm completely irrelevant, as the strength of the Chaos IP and Abaddon on the cover will see decent sales alone.


Hm I see. Well first off, Hail the Editors. I'm glad to know that source material isn't an issue, and as to those criteria; I can't comment on whether the editors will like it or not or that you could get bord by it, but I think sales will not be an issue. As you've said this is Abaddon and the strength of the Chaos IP will ensure if not great then at least decent sales for it. Though I disagree that you are irrelevant when considering the merits of the series. Another author would provoke a different response, what that response would be varies on the author, but so far I have not read a single complaint by anyone here, on the Bolthole or on Warseer regarding you being the author, whereas if it was another author there would definitely be those who would want someone else writing the series. This is just my opinion but I think the only two authors who have the fanbase to have any complaints about their writing a series be a very small minority are you and Dan Abnett. So that said I think that you authoring this series is quite important for it, as it has helped towards the series receiving a strong (good) reaction from the fans rather than a mixed one.



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I suspect the Black Crusades would be the major focal points for a potential series, yeah. One of the main things in my back-and-forth with GW about this (and a major aspect that I constantly harp on about) is that we've seen practically nothing of the Black Crusades in the lore. These aren't raids. These aren't invasions. They're not even wars. Take any one at random. It's a Black Crusade. More than that, it's one of the Real Deal Black Crusades, instigated by the Bringer of the End Times. Most Black Crusades will sweep over dozens/hundreds of worlds, see trillions and trillions dead, and every single one will make the Badab War or the Sabbat Worlds Crusade look like a tea party. They're the Antichrist of 40K raising the Armies of Hell, the Legions of the Underworld.
> 
> So there's a lot (read: endless) scope in that.
> 
> But no, there'd be plenty of other events. Just living in the Eye of Terror would require an immense amount of violence, negotiation, and mythological-style questing, a la the Twelve Tasks of Hercules or the Odyssey. Somewhere in my chaotic (hush, no pun intended) scatter of notes, I've got mentions of the very first time Chaos comes across the tyranids, for example. Or the Tau. Or the newly-emergent Black Legion going to war against the last Sons of Horus. Or the journey to earn the Mark of Chaos Ascendant. And what the Mark of Chaos Ascendant really, honestly means. Because it's not just a star tattooed on your head.


Now this sounds great. You definitely make the Black Crusades sound like something that puts everything else on hold, and makes why the Imperium fears them so much more understandable. Considering the scale of the Sabbat Worlds, the Badab War, and all the other conflicts the Imperium has going on, that really does make the Black Crusades sound like something that everything sane, and even the insane, should fear.

Interesting. Chaos's "first contact" with the Tyranids and Tau would definitely be interesting, as both would be fairly shocking to the CSMs. The Tyraids, possibly the only thing as dangerous as they are, and the Tau, a race that is outside the Warp. I like the idea that Abaddon had to earn the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, similar to Archaon earning the Mark in WHF, and that there was conflict between the Black Legion and the remnants of the Sons of Horus. All sounding very good there ADB, all of it makes me very excited for the series.



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Oh, no. Telemachon is a major character, around at the founding of the Black Legion. And Khayon despises him.


Ooo interesting. I checked your blog and your one mention of Telemachon said that he is involved with the Emperor's Children. So i'm going to go out on a limb here and say the words "peacock" and "fop" could be used to describe him.

Thanks for the answers ADB, you've given me a few things to think about. Particularly the scale of the Black Crusades, your description does sound much better than previous descriptions of them. Looking forward to hearing more about the series.


LotN


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Are you going to cover the Black Crusade where Rogal Dorn is supposed killed/lost/(other conspiracy theories here)?


----------



## Liliedhe

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I, uh, actually wrote that _Index Astartes: Death Company_ article.
> 
> I mean, I had a lot (no, really, a lot) of feedback on the Black Legion Codex, too. But I totally wrote the _Index Astartes: Death Comapny_ article, hence the specific note, there.
> 
> I did the _Munitorum: Chainswords _article, too.
> 
> Hoping to do a few more in the future, but it all comes down to time.


Did you write the Abaddon Article, too? I was wondering if you had any input on it, because it contained a couple of new and very interesting tidbits I'd have expected to be addressed in your novel.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Liliedhe said:


> Did you write the Abaddon Article, too? I was wondering if you had any input on it, because it contained a couple of new and very interesting tidbits I'd have expected to be addressed in your novel.


Nope - there was talk of me doing it (and the Black Legion Codex), but it came down to time and miscommunication. I've had a lot of back and forth with HQ about Abaddon, though. 

There'll be differences between the codex and the novel series. Partly because, as always, the codex text is a fairly mythological listing of events that doesn't always hold up to realistic scrutiny, partly because that's the intention, and partly because it's what always happens when you've got two different writers drawing from the same source.


----------



## Liliedhe

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Nope - there was talk of me doing it (and the Black Legion Codex), but it came down to time and miscommunication. I've had a lot of back and forth with HQ about Abaddon, though.
> 
> There'll be differences between the codex and the novel series. Partly because, as always, the codex text is a fairly mythological listing of events that doesn't always hold up to realistic scrutiny, partly because that's the intention, and partly because it's what always happens when you've got two different writers drawing from the same source.


Thank you for answering my question. So I will ask another one (I am a curious person, I can't help it): will there be some more information on Abaddon's deeds on Cthonia? Before he joined the Legion? I am very eager to learn more about what was hinted at in the article...


----------



## LazyG

Just to say, I am really looking forward to these books. 

ADB - if you read this I would want to tell you that 40k novels are generally guilty pleasures for me, but your novels and those of Abnet are genuinely excellently written and i would happily recommend to those totally uninterested in 40k. I hope you write some non-40k novels sometime.


----------



## Duke_Leto

ADB - One oft he reasons you are so popular with the BL fanbase is due to the fact that you happily/readily engage with said fanbase and that you are clearly a fan of W40k yourself! So thanks for engaging regularly!

There has been plenty of discussion over the years on various fora about the "lack of success/failure" of the Black Crusades. I am assuming this is one "myth" you intend to address in this Black Legion series right?

I have always wondered whether the vagueries and time distortion of the Warp (and residing in the Eye of Terror) may have something to do with the perception around the seemingly disjointed nature of the Black Crusades.

It _could_ be that time is not linear in the Warp/Eye of Terror and as such the order in which realspace/the Imperium experiences the Black Crusades makes it impossible to discern a pattern and overall strategy. (ie it makes sense to Abaddon but not to the Imperium).

OR

It _could_ simply be that time runs at a different pace in the Warp/Eye of Terror so Abaddon has only experienced centuries rather than millennia, so if the Black Crusades were seen over a shorter period of time the strategy would be easier to discern?

OR

it could be something else entirely!!!!!! 

Just wondering what your view is on this?

Cheers


----------



## aerogems

I'm obviously not ADB, but I think part of the Black Crusades is that the Chaos forces are largely a loose collection of warbands that all have their own agenda and are generally just as happy to fight amongst one another as they are forces of the Imperium or anyone else. So it takes time for someone like Abaddon to get together enough forces to launch a Black Crusade. 

There are a few hints at this in the Night Lords books where Abaddon pops up briefly. Talos says something about how it seems like all the Black Crusades failed and did little more than dwindle the forces aimed at overthrowing the Imperium and Abaddon retorts saying how that assumes his goal was the destruction of the Imperium each time and not something more specific. There's also some brief mention about how soon Abaddon would be calling for Chaos forces to join his new Black Crusade and the Night Lords will answer.

So given time passes differently in the eye, it's probably just that it takes a few centuries to pull together enough forces to launch a Black Crusade. Plus you'd need some kind of objective and general strategy of how you plan to achieve that objective. You don't just plan a massive invasion in a few days.


----------



## Lord of the Night

http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/lets-talk-about-abaddon/

Urgent message to all Black Legion fans: Read that. *NOW!*


LotN


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lord of the Night said:


> http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/lets-talk-about-abaddon/
> 
> Urgent message to all Black Legion fans: Read that. *NOW!*
> 
> 
> LotN


I know AD-B didn't write that description, but it captures Abaddon absolutely perfectly. A very thought-provoking read and really elaborates The Despoiler's character. I am very, very much looking forward to reading The Talon of Horus.


----------



## Khyzer

Lord of the Night said:


> http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/lets-talk-about-abaddon/
> 
> Urgent message to all Black Legion fans: Read that. *NOW!*
> 
> 
> LotN


Fucking Intense....


----------



## Nordicus

Lord of the Night said:


> http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress....about-abaddon/
> 
> Urgent message to all Black Legion fans: Read that. NOW!
> 
> 
> LotN


That. Was. Awesome.


----------



## aerogems

Lord of the Night said:


> http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/lets-talk-about-abaddon/
> 
> Urgent message to all Black Legion fans: Read that. *NOW!*
> 
> 
> LotN


Reading that makes me think it'd be interesting if, at some point anyway, ADB went into a bit more detail about what drove Horus to fall to Chaos and all that. I know this is meant to be Abaddon's story, but it'd be a good opening chapter or prolog don't you think? It starts off filling in some of the gaps left by False Gods and maybe hits a few highlights along the way of the Heresy, culminating in the Chaos gods abandoning Horus at the 11th hour, all setting the stage for the development of Abaddon's character. After all, at least insofar as this potential series of books on Abaddon and the Black Legion go, Horus's rise and fall in the eyes of the Chaos gods is kind of the pivotal moment.


----------



## Gree

Duke_Leto said:


> ADB - One oft he reasons you are so popular with the BL fanbase is due to the fact that you happily/readily engage with said fanbase and that you are clearly a fan of W40k yourself! So thanks for engaging regularly!
> 
> There has been plenty of discussion over the years on various fora about the "lack of success/failure" of the Black Crusades. I am assuming this is one "myth" you intend to address in this Black Legion series right?


I'd say the whole Failbaddon thing is the greatest obstacle for the Black Legion. In a way it was discussed earlier in this thread. The Black Legion Supplement was a breath of fresh air in that regard, but it still remains to be seen if the new fluff can convince people that Abaddon is not an incompetent moron.

I'm not particularly optimistic (Although that it's part due to my pessimistic nature) that it will necessarily happen on a wide scale. IMO, the Failbaddon meme is particularly deeply entrenched to the point were even Black Library novels are giving it nods here and there. The Supplement and the upcoming novel are particularly interesting, but it strikes me as too little, too late in regards to Abaddon.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Two interesting new lore pieces about Abaddon from the Black Legion Codex Supplement.



Lexicanum said:


> Shortly after the Heresy, Abaddon abandoned the Legion; broken by the death of Horus and sick of war, he wandered alone into the Eye of Terror. Meanwhile, within the Eye itself, civil war soon broke out amongst the traitor Legions. Becoming embroiled in a war against the Emperor's Children, the Sons of Horus' fortress on Maeleum was destroyed and the Emperor's Children stole the corpse of Warmaster Horus himself. Eventually with the help of Fabius Bile, a number of clones of Horus were created, an act which disgusted the Sons of Horus. At this point Abaddon, disgusted by the actions of the Emperor's Children against his Primarch, returned and took the position of Warmaster and leader of his legion. Abaddon led his forces in a lightning raid on the Emperor's Children's stronghold, destroying all the clones of Horus. After his victory, Abaddon proceeded to purge the Black Legion of traitorous and self-serving elements, such as the Word Bearers champion Rynax the Unspoken, the Nurgle Chaos Lord Purgor the Putrescent, and the Slaaneshi Sorcerer Hexagalimere. Making a bloody examples of these Renegades, Abaddon was able to cement his hold on power over the Legion.





Lexicanum said:


> During his centuries of exile, Abaddon visited each of the six Daemon Primarchs, attempting to receive aid from each.
> 
> From Angron he gained the favor of Khorne by fighting the Primarch's daemonic champions on Goreswirl.
> 
> From Mortarion, he earned the favor of Nurgle in exchange for the the Chaos artifact known as the Hand of Darkness, which the Lord of the Death Guard sought to use to craft a Zombie Plague.
> 
> Though Magnus the Red, refused to meet with him, Abaddon still gained the blessing of Tzeentch in exchange for the Eye of Night, the sightless remnant of the Stone God. He he then turned to Ahriman, who in turn pledged the services of his Rubric Marines to the Despoilers cause.
> 
> From Fulgrim, the Despoiler was given the favor of Slaanesh in exchange for a Pythosian Psyker, offered as an unblemished vessel to contain the avatar of Slaanesh.
> 
> From Lorgar, the Warmaster learned the rare art of Daemonancy. Lorgar proved willing to aid Abaddon due to his hatred of the Adeptus Ministorum.
> 
> From Perturabo, Abaddon was given vast Daemon Engines produced deep within the Eye of Terror. The Iron Warriors proved eager to test these weapons against the renown defenses of Cadia.


I know that ADB said the Codex is a more mythological text and the novel series may differ, but I do hope we get to see some of this stuff in the series. I'm particularly interested by what he gave Fulgrim, a psyker that could contain an avatar of Slaanesh?? Must either be a truly innocent being or a very very powerful one. And the lords he killed for trying to poach Black Legion marines at the beginning, I hope we see that as well.


LotN


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I know AD-B didn't write that description, but it captures Abaddon absolutely perfectly. A very thought-provoking read and really elaborates The Despoiler's character. I am very, very much looking forward to reading The Talon of Horus.


'In recent months, as The Talon of Horus rolls ever onward, I’ve spilled a wealth of words on Ezekyle Abaddon and the Black Legion over emails and hastily-chucked notes to various other authors and IP-tastic souls in the dark conclave of Those Who Contribute to 40K.'

I wonder if you contributed/offered advice CoTE.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Lord of the Night said:


> Two interesting new lore pieces about Abaddon from the Black Legion Codex Supplement.LotN


The first one will definitely happen, as it's the storyline of the first novel, which the writer slotted in for me like the kind-hearted soul he is. If you've read Extinction, you've seen Abaddon on his pilgrimage, before his return. Think of the vibe where veteran warriors in Fantasy novels retire to monasteries to atone for their sins, or hang up their swords and wander the world as pilgrims, seeing all they can see and learning all they can learn. It's that vibe.

Up until the list of names at the end... I can assume that happens off-screen or something. There are traitors to be purged in every organisation, mind you, so maybe I'll play with the names later in a future novel. I mean, half the point of Chaos Marine names and titles is to be bombastic, without necessarily reflecting on the warrior himself. The main character of the series technically _is_ Ygethmor the Deceiver, and it always amuses him to be called it, or to be confronted with how the Imperium thinks his forces are organised. To him, it's just a name the Imperium ascribes to whatever "Abaddon's right-hand sorcerer" the empire believes it's hunting. 

These are the armies of Hell, after all. They're immortal warriors who have survived in the underworld, eating hatred, spite, and slaves' blood for an eternity, long-forgotten by an Imperium that largely thinks they're fictional. There's just no reliable information beyond astropathic rumour, mythological texts of X Hero fighting Z villain, and whispered distress calls, mostly heard by people that don't know Chaos exists, and in some cases by people aren't even aware Space Marines are real soldiers rather than the God-Emperor's supernatural angels. So it's not just like getting someone's name and Facebook page. "You have added Ygethmor as your friend. Do you know him outside Facebook? Yes/No."

The second examples... There'll be interactions with the Daemon Primarchs, and I like the mythological feel of those events. I've had my own ideas for years now regarding this series (I've had the third novel planned as a Twelve Tasks of Hercules-style deal for well over a year if you go by the emails to my editors), and I'm not a huge fan of too many MacGuffin ("Go there, find the Magic X of Y") quests in novels. I think those apocryphal examples strike a good balance, though I couldn't say - at this early stage - exactly how much of it will reshape my own plans or will be used directly.

F'rex, at some point, Abaddon and the Black Legion will indeed go to the Planet of the Sorcerers again, not least because Khayon has unfinished business there, as well. But as for something as specific as getting a psyker that can contain Slaanesh's avatar... We're reaching into Codex-style hyperbole on one hand, and leaping out of it on the other. It sounds incredible, but then you've got the aspect that every single Slaaneshi daemon is basically an avatar/shard of Slaanesh, so there's always scope. 

That sounds like I'm objecting to it, and I'm really not. There are things in the codex that hamstring me a little, and I'm sure there will be things in the novel series that conflict with the supplement (though, hey, it's me - so I try to limit that stuff). But saying that, although on the surface some of the mythological moments are a little blunt and direct in terms of making them into believable prose, they're probably my fave thing in the codex, and I dig them a lot. They're like the tales of Troy, or Thermopylae, or the founding of Rome. We have a few mythological variants, then authors put their own spin on how those events might have happened - like Gemmell's "Trojan Horse" being enemy soldiers on stolen horses, and wearing the armour of Troy's elite cavalry regiment, being let into the city gates because the sentries didn't know it was the enemy in their butchered companions' armour. Which was both credible and, once the killing started, absolutely tragic. Much more violent than the original myth because of an enemy cavalry regiment able to wreak havoc on a population in the city streets during the daytime (rather than while they all slept drunk after a festival), but also more tragic because the Trojans were believably deceived by assholes wearing the armour of their massacred elite troops, rather than by an entire army leaving a hollow statue outside their gates and running away giggling.

Luckily for me/us, the Eye of Terror offers infinite scope for supernatural stuff, too. The best of both worlds.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> The first one will definitely happen, as it's the storyline of the first novel, which the writer slotted in for me like the kind-hearted soul he is. If you've read Extinction, you've seen Abaddon on his pilgrimage, before his return. Think of the vibe where veteran warriors in Fantasy novels retire to monasteries to atone for their sins, or hang up their swords and wander the world as pilgrims, seeing all they can see and learning all they can learn. It's that vibe.


That's interesting because Abaddon really doesn't strike me, from his appearances in the Heresy series, as the kind of guy who would hang up his sword for any reason bar death. Perhaps he puts on a more aggressive front or the defeat of Horus affected him more than we think it did. Many possibilities.



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Up until the list of names at the end... I can assume that happens off-screen or something. There are traitors to be purged in every organisation, mind you, so maybe I'll play with the names later in a future novel. I mean, half the point of Chaos Marine names and titles is to be bombastic, without necessarily reflecting on the warrior himself. The main character of the series technically _is_ Ygethmor the Deceiver, and it always amuses him to be called it, or to be confronted with how the Imperium thinks his forces are organised. To him, it's just a name the Imperium ascribes to whatever "Abaddon's right-hand sorcerer" the empire believes it's hunting.


Huh. Now that is interesting. So Iskander Khayon is Ygethmor, but only _technically_. Hopefully that means that if we see the name Elarique Swiftblade we don't need to take our hats off and have a moment of silence in advance. Could this mean that the Imperium assumes Ygethmor is Abaddon's right-hand Sorcerer and then further assumes that any really powerful Black Legion Sorcerer they meet on the battlefield is him, and Iskander, the sly bastard, doesn't bother to correct them because it's that funny?? If so then hehe, I like him already.



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> These are the armies of Hell, after all. They're immortal warriors who have survived in the underworld, eating hatred, spite, and slaves' blood for an eternity, long-forgotten by an Imperium that largely thinks they're fictional. There's just no reliable information beyond astropathic rumour, mythological texts of X Hero fighting Z villain, and whispered distress calls, mostly heard by people that don't know Chaos exists, and in some cases by people aren't even aware Space Marines are real soldiers rather than the God-Emperor's supernatural angels. So it's not just like getting someone's name and Facebook page. "You have added Ygethmor as your friend. Do you know him outside Facebook? Yes/No."


Got to say this, I really love your interpretation of 40k in descriptions like this. You make it sound much more like a Dark Age setting than others do, and you make the Chaos Space Marines sound so much more badass and threatening than just the idea of them as evil Space Marines, they are so much more then that and such detail is one of the things that gives this series the potential to be one of BL's best.



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> F'rex, at some point, Abaddon and the Black Legion will indeed go to the Planet of the Sorcerers again, not least because Khayon has unfinished business there, as well. But as for something as specific as getting a psyker that can contain Slaanesh's avatar... We're reaching into Codex-style hyperbole on one hand, and leaping out of it on the other. It sounds incredible, but then you've got the aspect that every single Slaaneshi daemon is basically an avatar/shard of Slaanesh, so there's always scope.
> 
> Luckily for me/us, the Eye of Terror offers infinite scope for supernatural stuff, too. The best of both worlds.


Hm, perhaps his unfinished business is trying to find Ahriman so he can punch him for the Rubric. Or something else entirely. The more I hear about this series, the more psyched I get for it. :grin:

I do have a question about Abaddon and Khayon though, regarding the structure of the novel. Is Khayon the only POV character or will we get to see inside Abaddon's head just as much? Or will the series be a case of seeing the power through the eyes of those close to him rather than the power himself?


LotN


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Lord of the Night said:


> I do have a question about Abaddon and Khayon though, regarding the structure of the novel. Is Khayon the only POV character or will we get to see inside Abaddon's head just as much? Or will the series be a case of seeing the power through the eyes of those close to him rather than the power himself?


It's all from Khayon's POV, but he's at Abaddon's side for 10,000 years, so he doesn't exactly miss much. It came down to the fact that this isn't supposed to be like any other series that the Black Library has published before. The closest thing to it, spiritually speaking, is the Eisenhorn Trilogy, though in terms of potential publication it could run as long as - or longer than - Gaunt's Ghosts.

But it's not really based on either of them. The tone of _The Talon of Horus_ is, I hope, much closer to novels like _Gates of Fire_ by Steven Pressfield, and _The Winter King_ by Bernard Cornwell. I read a lot of historical fiction, as well as mythological fiction. In every single case I've come across, my favourite novels (and often the best-reviewed ones) are written as first-person retellings from a character that was present at the time, at the right hand of the 'famous' character. They're often named or well-known characters in their own right, but they also offer a ground-level perspective of momentous events, while still being very close to the more famous character(s) alive at the time.

Just off the top of my head, _The Winter King_, _Enemy of God_, and _Excalibur_ are some of the best-reviewed historical fiction novels of all time, and are often cited as the definitive, best books about the legend of King Arthur, Lancelot, Galahad, and the wars against the Saxons. They're written from the perspective of Derfel Cadarn, one of Arthur's closest friends and finest warriors. On the same note, _Gates of Fire_ is pretty much soundly heralded as the best (indeed, the _perfect_) novel about the Spartan Three Hundred and the Battle of Thermopylae, and it's written from the perspective of a Spartan's freeborn squire, who isn't even in the phalanx. Yet it's the finest, most visceral and powerful vision of phalanx warfare ever written.

I love those novels, and a bunch like of books just like them. Someone who was there, who saw it all, and knows the truth behind the legends. Close enough to King Arthur or King Leonidas to understand their reasoning and to know the details of their lives; close enough to witness moments and see perspectives that others will never see; but not stealing the whole mystery by being a novel about that specific character. As long as the narrator is an interesting character in his own right, you're golden. 

Which is why it begins with these words:

_I am Iskandar Khayon of the Kha'Sherhan, a Lord of the Ezekarion, and brother to Ezekyle Abaddon. I shed blood with him at the dawn of the Long War, when the first of us stood armoured in black beneath the rising red sun.

Every word on these pages is true.
_


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Could I beg you not to make the Imperial Fists one of Abaddon's punch bags?


----------



## Commander Firebrand

I absolutely can not wait for the series and the fact you reference the Winter King has me even more excited as that's my favourite Cornwell series


----------



## Lord of the Night

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> It's all from Khayon's POV, but he's at Abaddon's side for 10,000 years, so he doesn't exactly miss much. It came down to the fact that this isn't supposed to be like any other series that the Black Library has published before. The closest thing to it, spiritually speaking, is the Eisenhorn Trilogy, though in terms of potential publication it could run as long as - *or longer than - Gaunt's Ghosts.*


Bold = What everyone is hoping for. It says a lot about Khayon that he has managed to stay at Abaddon's side for 10,000 years, especially if Abaddon favours the "Darth Vader style" of command. So this series is intended to be groundbreaking like Eisenhorn was, opening the door for series like Ravenor, Bequin, Dark Heresy and novels like Atlas Infernal. Sounds very interesting, and when The Warmaster Chronicles become a success perhaps we'll see more series devoted to the famous faces of 40k. Ahriman is getting a trilogy, perhaps characters like Eldrad Ulthran, Commander Farsight or Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka may one day get such a treatment.



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I love those novels, and a bunch like of books just like them. Someone who was there, who saw it all, and knows the truth behind the legends. Close enough to King Arthur or King Leonidas to understand their reasoning and to know the details of their lives; close enough to witness moments and see perspectives that others will never see; but not stealing the whole mystery by being a novel about that specific character. As long as the narrator is an interesting character in his own right, you're golden.


Interesting, so Khayon is the Derfel Cadarn of this series. And like Derfel he'll have his own personal story which you mentioned before, he tried to stop the Rubric and he has unfinished business at the Planet of the Sorcerers. So the _The Warmaster Chronicles_ so far seems like it will tell three stories; Abaddon's, Khayon's and the Black Legion's.



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Which is why it begins with these words:
> 
> _I am Iskandar Khayon of the Kha'Sherhan, a Lord of the Ezekarion, and brother to Ezekyle Abaddon. I shed blood with him at the dawn of the Long War, when the first of us stood armoured in black beneath the rising red sun.
> 
> Every word on these pages is true._


Epic. I love reading things like that in excerpts. Names that we do not know the meaning of and make us wonder what they are. Kha'Sherhan sounds like something the Thousand Sons would use so I think it's some kind of Cult in the Legion, or it's the people that Khayon originally came from. And the Ezekarion, could this be what the Black Legion call themselves in private like the Space Wolves calling themselves the Rout. I can't wait to find out.

And I really love those last words. _"Every word on these pages is true."_ Only in 40k would a 10,000 year old Sorcerer who is the right-hand man to the antichrist and the lord of the legions of darkness be our source for the truth.


LotN


----------



## Khyzer

Lord of the Night said:


> Interesting, so Khayon is the Derfel Cadarn of this series. And like Derfel he'll have his own personal story which you mentioned before, he tried to stop the Rubric and he has unfinished business at the Planet of the Sorcerers. So the _The Warmaster Chronicles_ so far seems like it will tell three stories; Abaddon's, Khayon's and the Black Legion's.
> 
> LotN


Wonder if Khayon will make a cameo in either of the two books left in the Ahriman trilogy. Doubtful I know, but it could be cool to see a name drop. Though that would probably violate ADB's mindset of the vastness of the galaxy lol.



Lord of the Night said:


> And the Ezekarion, could this be what the Black Legion call themselves in private like the Space Wolves calling themselves the Rout. I can't wait to find out.


I'm guessing it is his honor guard of sorts. Or maybe what those he "tolerates" call themselves to separate them from the general rabble of followers.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Khyzer said:


> Wonder if Khayon will make a cameo in either of the two books left in the Ahriman trilogy. Doubtful I know, but it could be cool to see a name drop. Though that would probably violate ADB's mindset of the vastness of the galaxy lol.


I don't think it would. ADB says that Khayon tried to stop the Rubric and that series is about Ahriman, the guy who actually cast the Rubric, so I don't think it'd be out of place for Ahriman to remember Khayon trying to stop him, at the very least remembering his name.



Khyzer said:


> I'm guessing it is his honor guard of sorts. Or maybe what those he "tolerates" call themselves to separate them from the general rabble of followers.


Then why use Ezekarion? If it were an honour guard wouldn't it be called something like the Khayarion, named for him rather than Abaddon.


LotN


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## Commander Firebrand

Lord of the Night said:


> I don't think it would. ADB says that Khayon tried to stop the Rubric and that series is about Ahriman, the guy who actually cast the Rubric, so I don't think it'd be out of place for Ahriman to remember Khayon trying to stop him, at the very least remembering his name.
> 
> 
> Then why use Ezekarion? If it were an honour guard wouldn't it be called something like the Khayarion, named for him rather than Abaddon.
> 
> 
> LotN


Maybe it'a what the Mournival now call themselves?


----------



## Tawa

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> _I am Iskandar Khayon of the Kha'Sherhan, a Lord of the Ezekarion, and brother to Ezekyle Abaddon. I shed blood with him at the dawn of the Long War, when the first of us stood armoured in black beneath the rising red sun.
> 
> Every word on these pages is true.
> _


Ooh, that gave me a shiver :so_happy:


----------



## Khyzer

Lord of the Night said:


> Then why use Ezekarion? If it were an honour guard wouldn't it be called something like the Khayarion, named for him rather than Abaddon.
> 
> 
> LotN


I was thinking like the Ezekarion were the elite guard/most "trusted" brothers (I use that term lightly lol) of Abaddon. And Khayon is the lord of them, the top member of the guard. In the same sense that Valdor is the Captain-General of the Custodes.

Least that was my interpretation of it.


----------



## forkmaster

John French (writer of Ahriman) and ADb have had close e-mail-contact (from what I could interpret), just specifically about the TS! Ahriman might do a cmaeo in RoTW why not the other way around?


----------



## Khyzer

Quick question that occurred to me while staring at my bookshelf. I am assuming this series will first be released in Hardback form? Just curious as I prefer most of my books to be of the same format. Currently I try to have everything be either Hardback or Omnibus (because I got into 40k well after everything was in omnibus format, too much money to change now lol.) And while this series is by far my most anticipated *thing* in my life right now lol (sad I know...), I really do not want to buy your first 4-5 books in trade paperback format, just to have to turn around and buy them again in Omnibus format to fit with my bookshelf. Now if they are all going to be Hardback upon first release then I have no qualms, as books of your caliber generally deserve to be displayed with all due respect and quality that Hardbacks instill in a readers hands.

And speaking of Omnibuses... Any idea when your Night Lords trilogy will be getting the Omnibus treatment?


----------



## Valrak

Will we get to see Little Horus?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Valrak said:


> Will we get to see Little Horus?


He'll be long gone by then. :wink:


----------



## Valrak

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> He'll be long gone by then. :wink:


Haha! Well I hope that he brings down the void shields


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

forkmaster said:


> John French (writer of Ahriman) and ADb have had close e-mail-contact (from what I could interpret), just specifically about the TS! Ahriman might do a cmaeo in RoTW why not the other way around?


Yeah, we're besties. 

Ahriman gets quite a few mentions in _The Talon of Horus_, as Khayon was present at the Fall of Prospero, and was the member of Ahriman's cabal that tried to stop the Rubric. He still has a lot of affection for Ahriman, in that way you can still love your brother even as you regret the choices he makes. Khayon will get a few mentions in John's series, too.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Valrak said:


> Haha! Well I hope that he brings down the void shields


I hope he doesn't!


----------



## Angel of Blood

Yeah I don't see why so many people seem obsessed with the idea, that somebody other than Horus has to lower the shield. He needed the Emperor to come and challenge him, the Siege still had days left, and Guilliman, the Lion and the Wolf were only hours away. It was over. So why do people want someone else like Aximand to go 'derp' and lower the shields?


----------



## Words_of_Truth

He clearly got the idea from Russ.


----------



## forkmaster

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Yeah, we're besties.
> 
> Ahriman gets quite a few mentions in _The Talon of Horus_, as Khayon was present at the Fall of Prospero, and was the member of Ahriman's cabal that tried to stop the Rubric. He still has a lot of affection for Ahriman, in that way you can still love your brother even as you regret the choices he makes. Khayon will get a few mentions in John's series, too.


This sounds farily promising!  I'm gonna get on to finish that book later tonight then.


----------



## Lord of the Night

So with the new short story, Abaddon: Chosen of Chaos, we have an idea of the cast of the coming novel, the elite Ezekarion.

Abaddon (Warmaster)
Iskander Khayon (Tzeentch)
Telemachon (Slaanesh)
Lheor (Khorne)
The Fallen Angel (Unknown)

And possibly The White Seer and The Weeping Girl.


LotN


----------



## csw

The Weeping Girl?

_Cyrene?_

Maybe? Please?


----------



## Tawa

I read that as Weeping Angel and had to do a double-take..... :headbutt:


----------



## Lord of the Night

My thoughts on _Abaddon: Chosen of Chaos_;


The description ADB gave of Abaddon in his blog, about how he has no fixed form and that everyone sees him differently, has been expanded on. Remember how nobody can actually look at the Emperor for long in the Heresy, Abaddon is the same. According to Khayon it actually hurts for those with sixth senses to look at him, and as powerful as he is even he doesn't like looking at the Warmaster for long, and by long I mean more than a few seconds. But Abaddon's power is undeniable even if we didn't get a full-on description of how Khayon sees him. And apparantely Drach'nyen's whispering influence is not confined to Abaddon alone, it can reach out and affect others which Khayon seems to be wary of, enough that hearing those whispers makes him immediately break his gaze from Abaddon.



Chosen of Chaos said:


> It is difficult for those of us with sixth senses to look at him for long.
> 
> I risk another glance towards him. His eyes glint unhealthily amber in the fading sun. Veins cobweb beneath his cadaverous skin, thick with the power that ripens his immortal flesh. I hear his sword beginning to whisper to me, and realise that I have looked for too long.


The Ezekarion have been revealed, not fully, but we know some of their members properly now. Khayon of course, and Telemachon the swordsman with the flawless voice and with whom Khayon shares a rivalry in which they try to murder each other sometimes, though not for a few years by this point. A new reveal is Lheor, who appears to be a Khorne Berzerker but one who is firmly loyal to Abaddon and appears to have good control over himself. Also the Ezekarion are the only beings in creation who may call the Warmaster by his name, Ezekyle. Even the dying loyalist was surprised by that.



Chosen of Chaos said:


> Telemachon stands next to me, watching with arms crossed across his breastplate. His mind is sealed to me, and I am content to leave it thus. It has been nine years since I last tried to kill him. It has been seven since he last tried to kill me.
> 
> Telemachon has the most beautiful voice I have ever heard. A voice to sway souls and cleanse consciences – soft without implying weakness; strong without arrogance. Even the crackle of vox corruption cannot flaw its smooth tone.


As to the protagonist Iskander Khayon, I got an impression of a warrior who dislikes the brutality that is the Black Legion's calling card, even threatening multiple times to take his fleet away from Abaddon's and move ahead. That he could actually make that threat multiple times and not be dead or something infinitely worse shows right away that the relationship the Ezekarion and Abaddon have is very very very different to the average Chaos Lord's relationship with his followers. Also that Abaddon already is not what I expected him to be, I would have guessed that anyone who even dares speak out of turn to him would regret it, or that nobody would even have the nerve to dare.



Chosen of Chaos said:


> He knows that I am weary of this war. I have threatened, more than once, to take my fleet and sail ahead of the Legion, hunting other prey. Only by the Warmaster’s request have I stayed with them here, on the front lines.


Abaddon requests it, now that makes me very interested in learning more about Abaddon and Khayon's relationship, perhaps it is unique among the Ezekarion or perhaps all of them enjoy such an easy bond with the Warmaster. Have to wait and see.

Abaddon's interaction with the loyalist was quite interesting, i'll post a few quotes later, but he spoke to him almost as a general speaks to a wounded soldier of the enemy, one whom he respects in a sense but ultimately pities for wasting his life by being his enemy and serving a corrupt power. He almost seemed kind in some of his speech, as if he were releasing the loyalist from bondage to a life of freedom, which was eerie.



Chosen of Chaos said:


> Abaddon withdraws the claw and kisses the dying warrior on the forehead – a Bronze Era warlord blessing one of his chosen warriors.
> _‘Sleep, brave champion of humanity. A life without worth is coming to a close, and you go to your reward in the Sea of Souls.’_


The image of Abaddon kissing a dying loyalist's forehead is very memorable, and it does feel reminiscent of a bronze era warlord blessing his warriors, or a priest blessing the chosen few; either way it stuck in my head. And his quote is definitely something that throws his character into question, it seems like dogma worthy of the Word Bearers but they would never show such respect to a loyalist and would definitely not believe that a loyalist would receive anything other than eternal damnation. But Abaddon seems to respect the loyalist for surviving where his chapter did not, which falls in line with his actions in the 9th Black Crusade with Reclusiarch Jorus and his Death Company.

On the whole this short story has increased my desire to read about Abaddon and the Black Legion even further, but now I am truly curious as to who Abaddon is exactly, what new facets of his character and those around him will we gain from reading this series and what secrets will we learn about the Warmaster of Chaos and his aim to destroy the False Emperor. I can't wait to find out.


LotN


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

It will also be interesting to see how Abaddon will be portrayed in _Vengeful Spirit_ (assuming he will play a part).


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Lord of the Night said:


> So with the new short story, Abaddon: Chosen of Chaos, we have an idea of the cast of the coming novel, the elite Ezekarion.
> 
> Abaddon (Warmaster)
> Iskander Khayon (Tzeentch)
> Telemachon (Slaanesh)
> Lheor (Khorne)
> The Fallen Angel (Unknown)
> 
> And possibly The White Seer and The Weeping Girl.
> 
> 
> LotN


Just to bounce in for a sec and interrupt an otherwise awesome analysis, it's worth noting that not every one of the founders will show up in the first novel. There're going to be a bunch of folks that show up in the first few years of the Black Legion and become part of the Ezekarion, but might not be there at the Battle of Canticle City, or in Abaddon's very first warband, once Khayon's gone to find him and bring him back to the Legion Wars.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Awesome. All I have to say.


----------



## Sev

Looks like this won't be coming out next month after all, at least according to amazon:

_"Unfortunately, the release date for the item(s) listed below was changed by the supplier, and we need to provide you with a new estimated delivery date based on the new release date: 
Dembski-Bowden, Aaron "The Talon of Horus (Warhammer 40000)" Estimated arrival date: September 29 2014 - September 30 2014"_

First Stormcaller and now this..


----------



## Anakwanar

*Dead.Blue.Clown* - feel our rageeeeee :biggrin:


----------



## Lord of the Night

Grrr, too many books are being withheld and pushed back. At this rate there won't be a good book available until the latter half of the year.


LotN


----------



## Anakwanar

Lord of the Night said:


> Grrr, too many books are being withheld and pushed back. At this rate there won't be a good book available until the latter half of the year.


Yes. WTF to read at first HALF? BL are you joking? I can understand Dan Abnett - he has an extra novel to write about GOTG for movie release this summer, but BOWDEN, Wraight, French?????????? What is their excuse?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Anakwanar said:


> Yes. WTF to read at first HALF? BL are you joking? I can understand Dan Abnett - he has an extra novel to write about GOTG for movie release this summer, but BOWDEN, Wraight, French?????????? What is their excuse?


They don't need an excuse. Their books will be released at some point, chill. There are more important things in life.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Anakwanar said:


> Yes. WTF to read at first HALF? BL are you joking? I can understand Dan Abnett - he has an extra novel to write about GOTG for movie release this summer, but BOWDEN, Wraight, French?????????? What is their excuse?


I'm sure they'd like for their books to be released as quickly as possible, you know so they can be paid and get to work on the next bill paying novel, but hey ho sometimes life just throws you a curveball.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Anakwanar said:


> Yes. WTF to read at first HALF? BL are you joking? I can understand Dan Abnett - he has an extra novel to write about GOTG for movie release this summer, but BOWDEN, Wraight, French?????????? What is their excuse?


What... what's my _excuse?_ Are you fucking serious?

http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/05/entitlement-issues.html


----------



## darkreever

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> What... what's my _excuse?_ Are you fucking serious?
> 
> http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/05/entitlement-issues.html


And the number of people who will manage to miss the point, despite it being so straightforward, will still be staggering.


----------



## Tawa

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> What... what's my _excuse?_


I'd say eating, sleeping and stepping away from the keyboard were pretty good ones :good:


----------



## Angel of Blood

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> What... what's my _excuse?_ Are you fucking serious?
> 
> http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/05/entitlement-issues.html


Try and ignore Anakwanar, we all do.


----------



## Sequere_me_in_Tenebras

Angel of Blood said:


> Try and ignore Anakwanar, we all do.


Agreed with Angel! Keep on trucking Aaron.


----------



## Lord of the Night

The BLL collection _Renegades of the Dark Millennium_ has a preview of _Talon of Horus_ in it. ADB unleashes an awesome twist in the very first page;




Khayon is a prisoner. Of whom we don't know, it doesn't specify the Imperium, but whomever they are he surrendered to them willingly and they have taken his eyes and psychic senses, and are recording his story. The story of Abaddon and the Black Legion. Could this be a framing story for the entire series or just for this book?? I hope it's the latter, as I already like Khayon and don't want the Imperium to kill him.

Oh and I think he has a Fenrisian "Wolf" for a pet. Epic.




LotN


----------



## Anakwanar

Fenrisian "Wolf" for a pet 
 

- what? 



TS with fenrisian wolf - that would be a story for ages :grin:


----------



## Anakwanar

To *Sequere_me_in_Tenebras; Angel of Blood; darkreever*

Guys - i has already apologized before Aaron. It was my friend, who aggravated him, as in half of the earlier messages, who used my nick and acc. Now - it is fully my acc, my friend is not a friend anymore, and he was punished.

But I do not deserve to read that. Let's all live happily ever after, please k:

Angel of Blood - about info on BL live: even before i edited info today and made clear that it was Shaggies, it was written - info taken from Bolthole :good: So we good?


----------



## Lord of the Night

Ok I have actually read the _Talon of Horus_ preview and here is what I have learned;




The framing for the story is Iskander Khayon telling the story to an Imperial servitor in a dungeon. He apparently surrendered to the Imperials who have taken him captive and are allowing him to confess his sins. He has been crucified, his eyes have been removed and his psychic powers have been nullified. He reveals that he is known as Kingbreaker to the Black Legion, the mage who brought Magnus the Red to his knees, to the Thousand Sons he is Khayon the Black, and that in the Terran Urals dialect his name is pronounced Sekhandur Caine.

He was at Prospero and apparently keeps a Tuletary named Gyre who takes the form of a Fenrisian Wolf. Irony. He commands the ship Tlaloc at the beginning of his story and keeps company with two Rubricae called Makari and Djedhor, an alien called Nefertari (I suspect she is Dark Eldar) and his ship has a biological component to it's machine spirit known as the Anmanesis, and the centre of that is a woman that Khayon seems to care a lot about called Itzara, however she is now just a part of a gestalt consciousness.

Khayon also gives a very interesting picture of the Post-Scouring period. At this time the Imperium actually did know peace. The Traitors had been vanquished, aliens were being hunted down and killed and any who dared speak against the newly-created God-Emperor were executed. He mentions that even after only a few generations people were already beginning to forget the details of the Horus Heresy and the Scouring, turning them both into myth. He says that the High Lords of Terra claimed that the Traitors were all dead in the Eye of Terror, however what they were actually doing was killing each other. Khayon says that the Legions spent a long time just murdering each other in the Eye, though eventually it spilled out into realspace because "Hell itself couldn't contain the grudges we bore each other." What changed that he does not say yet, but likely it was Abaddon.




LotN


----------



## Valrak

Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but will the book also have an audio version?


----------



## Tawa

> Makari


Ghazghkull's pet gretchin.....? :laugh:


----------



## forkmaster

Lord of the Night said:


> Ok I have actually read the _Talon of Horus_ preview and here is what I have learned;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The framing for the story is Iskander Khayon telling the story to an Imperial servitor in a dungeon. He apparently surrendered to the Imperials who have taken him captive and are allowing him to confess his sins. He has been crucified, his eyes have been removed and his psychic powers have been nullified. He reveals that he is known as Kingbreaker to the Black Legion, the mage who brought Magnus the Red to his knees, to the Thousand Sons he is Khayon the Black, and that in the Terran Urals dialect his name is pronounced Sekhandur Caine.
> 
> He was at Prospero and apparently keeps a Tuletary named Gyre who takes the form of a Fenrisian Wolf. Irony. He commands the ship Tlaloc at the beginning of his story and keeps company with two Rubricae called Makari and Djedhor, an alien called Nefertari (I suspect she is Dark Eldar) and his ship has a biological component to it's machine spirit known as the Anmanesis, and the centre of that is a woman that Khayon seems to care a lot about called Itzara, however she is now just a part of a gestalt consciousness.
> 
> Khayon also gives a very interesting picture of the Post-Scouring period. At this time the Imperium actually did know peace. The Traitors had been vanquished, aliens were being hunted down and killed and any who dared speak against the newly-created God-Emperor were executed. He mentions that even after only a few generations people were already beginning to forget the details of the Horus Heresy and the Scouring, turning them both into myth. He says that the High Lords of Terra claimed that the Traitors were all dead in the Eye of Terror, however what they were actually doing was killing each other. Khayon says that the Legions spent a long time just murdering each other in the Eye, though eventually it spilled out into realspace because "Hell itself couldn't contain the grudges we bore each other." What changed that he does not say yet, but likely it was Abaddon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LotN


I. Freaking. Can't. Wait. For. This. Story. To. Happen!!!! :grin:


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Kingbreaker? Why/how would a Thousand Son be involved with bringing Magnus down?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> Kingbreaker? Why/how would a Thousand Son be involved with bringing Magnus down?


The Thousand Sons fracture post-Rubric remember. Ahriman and other sorcerers claim the allegiance of a significant portion of the Legion.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Thousand Sons fracture post-Rubric remember. Ahriman and other sorcerers claim the allegiance of a significant portion of the Legion.


I don't recall them going against Magnus directly. Why would they?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> I don't recall them going against Magnus directly. Why would they?


Not that we know at the moment, looks like that will change though.

The Rubric divided the Legion. Magnus almost killed Ahriman. I don't see any reason why some sorcerer-lords wouldn't directly challenge Magnus given the circumstances. Perhaps they blamed Magnus for the Burning of Prospero, or perhaps they felt he abandoned them to the Flesh Change post-Prospero (which he kinda did). There are numerous reasons why they would challenge him.


----------



## forkmaster

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Not that we know at the moment, looks like that will change though.
> 
> The Rubric divided the Legion. Magnus almost killed Ahriman. I don't see any reason why some sorcerer-lords wouldn't directly challenge Magnus given the circumstances. Perhaps they blamed Magnus for the Burning of Prospero, or perhaps they felt he abandoned them to the Flesh Change post-Prospero (which he kinda did). There are numerous reasons why they would challenge him.


_Thief of Revelation_ certainly showed Magnus neglectance of the Legion for one thing! I can most definitely imagine _The Crimson King_ and the next _Ahriman_-novel will give us more clearer answers.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Malus Darkblade said:


> Kingbreaker? Why/how would a Thousand Son be involved with bringing Magnus down?


I so wanted a dramatically magic answer for this, but leaving aside the fact that there're about a squillion reasons for Marines to move against their primarchs (see: many Heresy novels) the answer's even simpler than that. 

Khayon isn't a Thousand Son. By the time he's listing his titles in 999.M41 he's not been a Thousand Son in almost 10,000 years. The same way Abaddon isn't a Son of Horus.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Of course. I just never associated the 1K Sons with being displeased with their father or for having a reason to do so.

The post-rubric power struggle coupled with Magnus's indifference towards his legion after ascending however explains a lot.


----------



## forkmaster

Are there any description of how Khayon looks like in the extract?


----------



## Lord of the Night

forkmaster said:


> Are there any description of how Khayon looks like in the extract?


No, the extract and by extension the book is first person, and Khayon doesn't see fit to describe himself.

Oh also, my favourite quote from the extract;

_"What kind of man do you think I am?"
"We do not think you are a man at all, Khayon. We think you are a weapon with lingering traces of humanity."_
-Iskander Khayon and The Amanesis​

Best description of an Astartes ever.


LotN


----------



## forkmaster

So the hardcover has arrived at ADB house and in August something will be revealed. Very exciting what this can be!

http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2014/06/15/the-talon-of-horus-and-an-fsog-interview/


----------



## Sevatar

forkmaster said:


> So the hardcover has arrived at ADB house and in August something will be revealed. Very exciting what this can be!
> 
> http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2014/06/15/the-talon-of-horus-and-an-fsog-interview/


Looking forward to it. But the cynic in me thinks the announcement will be the novel with eight illustrations for thrice the price.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Doesn't matter. It's ADB so it's guaranteed quality.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Yep. Take my damn money


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Can't wait.


----------



## Anakwanar

> Looking forward to it. But the cynic in me thinks the announcement will be the novel with eight illustrations for thrice the price.


My thoughts exactly, but as Malus Darkblade has mentioned - it's ADB - and he could write epic stuff :good: 
Through, i know, that this first book would be just a start of whole Series, so no high expectations here - i prefer a Black Crusade as a start anyway :grin:


----------



## Lord of the Night

http://www.fiftyshadesofgeek.org/po...2014-a-conversation-with-aaron-dembski-bowden

ADB's Podcast with FSOG confirms something that if he actually gets to do, it will be one of the most awesome things ever in 40k. Potential spoilers for _The Black Legion_ which is the "uninspired title for the second Black Legion book." Eh it's alright.




ADB says that book 2 will focus on the 1st Black Crusade and that by this point the Imperium has forgotten about the Traitor Legions. But he says that he thinks one man would remember them and that when the Black Legion comes out of the Eye, the Black Templars will be waiting for them. And Sigismund will be there, "a thousand year old templar king leaning on his sword." ADB says that he plans to make sure that one of the reasons Sigismund roams the battlefield at Terra is that he is looking for Abaddon, and that the 1st Black Crusade will be where he finally finds him.

The lore has never confirmed how Sigismund meets his end. Fighting the Despoiler seems an appropriate ending for him. Really hope this happens, it could be one of Warhammer 40k's greatest battles.




LotN


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Unfortunately, I don't want to know how Sigismund meets his end, so I'll probably avoid the book like the plague.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Words_of_Truth said:


> Unfortunately, I don't want to know how Sigismund meets his end, so I'll probably avoid the book like the plague.


Why?


----------



## Anakwanar

*Lord of the Night *- exactly. From this quote - it seems that book one would be about, well adventurous nothing and characters creation k: That doesn't mean, that it would not be interesting


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Why?


Sigismund holds a special place in my "heart", in 40k there's not many genuine loyalist heroes, there's always something iffy about them that I don't like or that they come across wrong to me, Sigismund though is a hero after my own heart and I'd rather remember him as someone who stood on the battle field of terra and slew the enemies of the Emperor, than a guy who stuck around, got old and got killed by Abaddon. Call me sentimental but it's just one of those things for me.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Words_of_Truth said:


> Sigismund holds a special place in my "heart", in 40k there's not many genuine loyalist heroes, there's always something iffy about them that I don't like or that they come across wrong to me, Sigismund though is a hero after my own heart and I'd rather remember him as someone who stood on the battle field of terra and slew the enemies of the Emperor, than a guy who stuck around, got old and got killed by Abaddon. Call me sentimental but it's just one of those things for me.


In my eyes, it makes Sigismund an even more compelling character.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> In my eyes, it makes Sigismund an even more compelling character.


Same here. Really Sigismund is a character that best exemplifies the harsh truth about all the 40k characters that we know and like. They will die. Rafen, Uriel Ventris, Alexis Polux, Sigismund, Garviel Loken, Sevatar, and all the other characters in the novels that seem so skilled that nobody could stop them, they all will die at some point. Sigismund is the best example imo, everybody in the Legiones acknowledges that there is no better fighter short of the Primarchs than Sigismund, and even the Primarchs admit that he is nearly as good as them, and if anything his skill is more impressive since he wasn't born to be excellent at everything. But he isn't around in 40k so something had to achieved the feat of killing him, even Alexis Polux aka the Guy Who Nearly Killed The Iron Warriors Legion died in battle. So what could have killed Sigismund, a Greater Daemon maybe?? Kharn perhaps?? Or Abaddon.

The idea that Sigismund survived until the 1st Black Crusade, by then he would have to be around 800-1000 years old, just so that he could meet Abaddon one final time and try to slay the Despoiler is an epic one. He had to die at some point, but if ADB gets his way at least Sigismund will go out like a badass.


LotN


----------



## Words_of_Truth

As long as it's done in a fashion where Abaddon can't gloat over it then fine, Sigismund's death has never been known and all of a sudden we have a book where it's clear Abaddon killed him yet it's never been mentioned before, just seems awkward to me. I'd prefer it if he went out in a vague manner like the way Dorn did, i.e you don't see it happen and there's always the chance it didn't but for all intents and purposes he is gone.


----------



## forkmaster

I've always wanted a novel that details the Black Crusade that actually ends the life of Rogal Dorn. With this and if successful, there might be hope!


----------



## Lord of the Night

Words_of_Truth said:


> As long as it's it's done in a fashion where Abaddon can't gloat over it then fine, Sigismund's death has never been known and all of a sudden we have a book where it's clear Abaddon killed him yet it's never been mentioned before, just seems awkward to me. I'd prefer it if he went out in a vague manner like the way Dorn did, i.e you don't see it happen and there's always the chance it didn't but for all intents and purposes he is gone.


It's ADB writing it. That will definitely not be a concern. After all this is the guy who wrote _Void Stalker_, a book with around two chapters featuring the Ultramarines, and said chapters being hailed as one of the best portrayals of the Ultramarines ever. And then _Betrayer_ after that. With ADB as the author, it's a guarantee that both sides will get equal treatment.


LotN


----------



## Words_of_Truth

forkmaster said:


> I've always wanted a novel that details the Black Crusade that actually ends the life of Rogal Dorn. With this and if successful, there might be hope!


Dorn's not dead, it's not confirmed at least. The most up to date fluff regarding him specifically states the Imperial Fists only found his fist.



Lord of the Night said:


> It's ADB writing it. That will definitely not be a concern. After all this is the guy who wrote _Void Stalker_, a book with around two chapters featuring the Ultramarines, and said chapters being hailed as one of the best portrayals of the Ultramarines ever. And then _Betrayer_ after that. With ADB as the author, it's a guarantee that both sides will get equal treatment.
> 
> 
> LotN


I hope so.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Does this little snippet of info we've got about Sigismund imply that Dorn was killed before the First Black Crusade? Although, obviously, it was never stated he fell to the First Black Crusade, just assumed so by many fans. 



Words_of_Truth said:


> Dorn's not dead, it's not confirmed at least.


Debatable.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Does this little snippet of info we've got about Sigismund imply that Dorn was killed before the First Black Crusade? Although, obviously, it was never stated he fell to the First Black Crusade, just assumed so by many fans.


The information we have on Dorn says he went missing in the 1st Black Crusade.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Debatable.


True but Dorn's death isn't definitively confirmed anymore. Now it's the mystery of whether or not he did die.


LotN


----------



## piemelke

I tend to go with words of truth here, Sigismund is one of the few loyalists who loyalist fans are proud of, one of the cool guys to balance all the near unbeatable traitor primarchs, kharns, typhus, abbadons, ahrimans, lucius, etc, it would take away some of his shine of Sigismund, his aura of invincibility if he were to be bested in cc, rather have him get a bolt in the gut and bleed out whilst disembowling some black legionaires. 
Thing is ADB will make Abbadon by all means the coolest, most badass character in the warhammer universe he does not need to have Abb get cool points on behalf of sigismund
(this is all under wild speculation that he indeed intends to do this)


----------



## The Scion of Chemos

piemelke said:


> I tend to go with words of truth here, Sigismund is one of the few loyalists who loyalist fans are proud of, one of the cool guys to balance all the near unbeatable traitor primarchs, kharns, typhus, abbadons, ahrimans, lucius, etc, it would take away some of his shine of Sigismund, his aura of invincibility if he were to be bested in cc, rather have him get a bolt in the gut and bleed out whilst disembowling some black legionaires.
> Thing is ADB will make Abbadon by all means the coolest, most badass character in the warhammer universe he does not need to have Abb get cool points on behalf of sigismund
> (this is all under wild speculation that he indeed intends to do this)


It is also worth noting that Sigismund DOES die, and since he is a Space Marine, he probably died in glorious battle! And all of those Chaos warriors, are imbued by the power of gods(at least in 40k, I am behind in the HH lol)
I doubt ADB would give such a loved character a terrible death. As a newish reader of ADBs stuff, I feel content to trust him with it. Sure, since Abaddon is Abaddon, I have no doubt he will be badass, but that doesn't mean Sigis wont be too!
And why does everyone seem to think he is old and worthless at 800-1k?? Dante is still kicking ass at 1K+? I bet it will be an epic battle, definitely worthy of Sigismund.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

I think it's nice to finally touch upon the longevity of Astartes physiology.

Our only non-Chaos related example is Dante who has never been discussed in novels and some tidbit about a Salamander someone stumbles upon who has been alive for IIRC 10,000 years, which is unrealistic.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

The Scion of Chemos said:


> It is also worth noting that Sigismund DOES die, and since he is a Space Marine, he probably died in glorious battle! And all of those Chaos warriors, are imbued by the power of gods(at least in 40k, I am behind in the HH lol)
> I doubt ADB would give such a loved character a terrible death. As a newish reader of ADBs stuff, I feel content to trust him with it. Sure, since Abaddon is Abaddon, I have no doubt he will be badass, but that doesn't mean Sigis wont be too!
> And why does everyone seem to think he is old and worthless at 800-1k?? Dante is still kicking ass at 1K+? I bet it will be an epic battle, definitely worthy of Sigismund.


Excuse the cutting and posting from Bolter & Chainsword, but it's pleasantly relevant. 

_In this case, at the last BL Weekender on one of the Heresy panels, it was asked what happened in the First Black Crusade, seeing as Cadia wasn't reinforced by that point. And I replied that I liked the idea of the Imperium victorious after the Scouring, committing the Nine Legions to the role of myth and legend while the Legions were trapped in the purgatory of the Eye. So when the newly formed Black Legion returns at the vanguard of the Armies of the Damned, they're almost entirely unopposed. Almost. "There's this ancient knight-king, leaning on his sword as he sits on his throne, a thousand years old but too proud and dutiful to die. And when the Black Legion break out of the Eye, the Black Templars are waiting for them." Hugely outnumbered: the only ones that insisted the Imperium's sins would come home to roost, the only Chapter to face humanity's sins coming back to haunt the species. As the Crusade unfolds, a lot of the Imperium joins in. But Sigismund was there first, waiting for Abaddon. The one duel he never got to fight on Terra.

And then I turned to my editor and said "That'll be Book Two."_



Lord of the Night said:


> The information we have on Dorn says he went missing in the 1st Black Crusade.
> 
> ...but Dorn's death isn't definitively confirmed anymore. Now it's the mystery of whether or not he did die.


And again...:

_"I thought that's where Dorn went down originally, but nope. Dorn dies aboard the Sword of Sacrilege in "a Black Crusade" between the First and Second (apparently not even one of Abaddon's, according to the Lore Peeps). I've got the actual date in my notes, but I'm on my iPad on my break. Early M32, I think. A couple of hundred years after the First Black Crusade, either way. (This all came from one of the meetings/documents where we had to plan out just what actual dates the primarchs all went down.)

Which is annoying, as I had this whole theme idea of it being the moment the Imperium finally has to accept that the tides have changed, and so on. But we had a bunch of talks about this, and Dorn was off the cards for anything like that. Someone wanted to do something with him elsewhere at some point, so it was vetoed by virtue of them asking first. No biggie, though. Ideas are free. Always more where they came from, and I prefer the resonance and symmetry of it being Sigismund. Someone else can tell Dorn's tale."_

--- --- ---

And regarding WoT's unrest, where he was the only dissenting voice on the 15-page Bolter & Chainsword thread too, so I'm familiar with his perfectly valid unease:

_"As as ludicrously conservative as I am on the Heresy team, and as much as I desperately say things like "We don't need to answer every mystery" and "We don't need to subvert everything" and "Our lives aren't made better by knowing Darth Vader was a little kid who built C3-P0" - in this case, I'm just not going to agree, dude. And I think I've made a good case for why, as has pretty much everyone else in this thread.

I don't see this as a diminishing factor in 40K's mystery. If it was a pointless/uninteresting/unthematic/gratuitous death, sure. But I like this one a lot. Some answers, thankfully, are great. This isn't the Lost Legions. It's a main character in the license, these days. If I don't touch it, you can guarantee someone else will. We know he dies, because all Space Marines die. Now we probably know how.

It's 8,000 years or so before the Dark Millennium, so they'll likely have forgotten it anyway."_


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Its not my intention to be a pain in the ass, it's just the way I feel. 

At least I'm consistent.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Excuse the cutting and posting from Bolter & Chainsword, but it's pleasantly relevant.
> 
> _In this case, at the last BL Weekender on one of the Heresy panels, it was asked what happened in the First Black Crusade, seeing as Cadia wasn't reinforced by that point. And I replied that I liked the idea of the Imperium victorious after the Scouring, committing the Nine Legions to the role of myth and legend while the Legions were trapped in the purgatory of the Eye. So when the newly formed Black Legion returns at the vanguard of the Armies of the Damned, they're almost entirely unopposed. Almost. "There's this ancient knight-king, leaning on his sword as he sits on his throne, a thousand years old but too proud and dutiful to die. And when the Black Legion break out of the Eye, the Black Templars are waiting for them." Hugely outnumbered: the only ones that insisted the Imperium's sins would come home to roost, the only Chapter to face humanity's sins coming back to haunt the species. As the Crusade unfolds, a lot of the Imperium joins in. But Sigismund was there first, waiting for Abaddon. The one duel he never got to fight on Terra.
> 
> And then I turned to my editor and said "That'll be Book Two."_


The images that this conjures up are nothing short of epic. The Black Templars, the sole voice of warning in the Imperium that has become buoyant on it's "victory" against the Traitors of Horus, and when nobody is willing to listen the Templars go to the Eye of Terror alone to await the Legions returning to bring hell to the Imperium once again. I wonder if this conflict will be one of the reasons the Templars maintain such high numbers, so that when the Legions march they can match their numbers.



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I don't see this as a diminishing factor in 40K's mystery. If it was a pointless/uninteresting/unthematic/gratuitous death, sure. But I like this one a lot. Some answers, thankfully, are great. This isn't the Lost Legions. It's a main character in the license, these days. If I don't touch it, you can guarantee someone else will. We know he dies, because all Space Marines die. Now we probably know how.
> 
> It's 8,000 years or so before the Dark Millennium, so they'll likely have forgotten it anyway."[/I]


Exactly. As much as we'd sometimes like to think the characters we like, for me First Claw, will never meet their end and that they'll still be around a thousand years from the current timeline. But as ADB says all Space Marines die eventually, like First Claw *sniff*, but at least when Sigismund does die we know it will be a grand death, worthy of the First Templar. :grin:


LotN


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Words_of_Truth said:


> Its not my intention to be a pain in the ass, it's just the way I feel.
> 
> At least I'm consistent.


No pain, ass-related or otherwise, dude. We coo'.


----------



## Garrak

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Excuse the cutting and posting from Bolter & Chainsword, but it's pleasantly relevant.
> 
> _In this case, at the last BL Weekender on one of the Heresy panels, it was asked what happened in the First Black Crusade, seeing as Cadia wasn't reinforced by that point. And I replied that I liked the idea of the Imperium victorious after the Scouring, committing the Nine Legions to the role of myth and legend while the Legions were trapped in the purgatory of the Eye. So when the newly formed Black Legion returns at the vanguard of the Armies of the Damned, they're almost entirely unopposed. Almost. "There's this ancient knight-king, leaning on his sword as he sits on his throne, a thousand years old but too proud and dutiful to die. And when the Black Legion break out of the Eye, the Black Templars are waiting for them." Hugely outnumbered: the only ones that insisted the Imperium's sins would come home to roost, the only Chapter to face humanity's sins coming back to haunt the species. As the Crusade unfolds, a lot of the Imperium joins in. But Sigismund was there first, waiting for Abaddon. The one duel he never got to fight on Terra.
> 
> And then I turned to my editor and said "That'll be Book Two."_


Man, I was exited for Talon of Horus already. Now you just got me exited for the second book as well - the image that those words conjure is just epic.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Having read through the comments on the B&C link, I can safely say that I think this is an awesome idea for the second book Aaron! 

It would be great to have the 'prologue' you mentioned (Sigismund stalking the battlefield of Terra seeking Abaddon) as part of the Heresy series as well - I can imagine him cutting down traitor champions by the dozen, demanding to know where Abaddon is!


----------



## Tawa

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> It would be great to have the 'prologue' you mentioned (Sigismund stalking the battlefield of Terra seeking Abaddon) as part of the Heresy series as well - I can imagine him cutting down traitor champions by the dozen, demanding to know where Abaddon is!


This, most definitely! :good:


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Words_of_Truth said:


> Unfortunately, I don't want to know how Sigismund meets his end, so I'll probably avoid the book like the plague.


From the B&C thread:



AD-B said:


> ...And on the meta-point, if Rogal Dorn can be killed by nameless humans in a no-name Black Crusade, I think it's fair for Sigismund to die to the Antichrist of Warhammer 40,000. There'll always be spilt milk and broken cookies with some readers, and legitimate grievances with others, but a story that cool, with that much possibility, with that much on the line, and with that much general consensus, isn't something I'm going to shy away from. He'd be a thousand years old, heroically facing the Lord of the End Times Who Is Destined To End The Imperium. It just doesn't get any more knightly and heroic than that. Literally, it doesn't.


You have to admit, that sounds like the best, most enthralling, high-stakes death a beloved Imperial character can hope for.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I had a really long post detailing why I am against Sigismund's death being explored, but I figured it just showed I take things to seriously so decided against posting it, suffice to say it came down to wanting to believe in good triumphing over evil.


----------



## Angel of Blood

I can see where you're coming from dude, I really can. I'd love to see Sigismund pass into the halls of myth and legend, the undefeated, the First Templar, the Black Knight and the Emperors Champion. It would be awesome for him to stay as this figure of legend, talked about equally amongst the Imperium and the traitors, maybe with a Russ like promise of returning for the final battle to seek out any champion of chaos who dares to set foot on Terras soil once again. As you said, that one glimmer of hope, of the good in the stagnant and corrupt Imperium.

But this is 40k, and the sad truth of it all is, everyone will die, the Imperium will fall eventually. Russ, the Khan, Corax and Vulkan are probably all dead, killed in the Eye, the Maelstorm or other fates. Dante will eventually fall, Draigo will be the first Grey Knight to turn, the Golden Throne will fail and the Emperor will die. All these and a multitude of other horrors and miseries. But if anyone is going to write a fitting end to the actual heroes, the few real champions left. ADB is the one to write it, his works speak for themselves. If Sigismund has to fall to somebody, Abbadon is literally the only individual I could accept accomplishing the feat. 

To echoe CotE, I also now just want a prequel of sorts, as I have always wanted. To see Sigismund stalking the battleground of Terra, seeking out champions of the Traitors, killing each and everyone of them. Only now I have to awesome visual of him bellowing out 'ABADDON!' As he defeats the traitors around him.


If you still need that glimmer of hope though. Just try and do what I do. 

Remember, the Lion


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

I've just had a thought: what exactly would Sigismund's justification be for hunting down Abaddon during the Siege of Terra? Because there doesn't seem to be any major rivalry between the Sigismund and Abaddon pre-Heresy for Sigismund to stalk the battlefield specifically searching for the First Captain of the Sons of Horus. 

Perhaps it's because he made it his mission to hunt down the traitor champions (and Abaddon is _the_ traitor champion)? Because Abaddon was a commander integral to the traitor's plans during the Siege? Perhaps Keeler gave him a vision of what Abaddon was destined to become?


----------



## Valrak

So are you indeed confirming Dorn does die? I always hung onto the though that someone chopped of his hands and left him trapped in a cupboard


----------



## Tawa

Valrak said:


> I always hung onto the though that someone chopped of his hands and left him trapped in a cupboard


So you're saying Dorn is still "in the closet"....? :laugh:


----------



## Lord of the Night

Angel of Blood said:


> To echoe CotE, I also now just want a prequel of sorts, as I have always wanted. To see Sigismund stalking the battleground of Terra, seeking out champions of the Traitors, killing each and everyone of them. Only now I have to awesome visual of him bellowing out 'ABADDON!' As he defeats the traitors around him.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I've just had a thought: what exactly would Sigismund's justification be for hunting down Abaddon during the Siege of Terra? Because there doesn't seem to be any major rivalry between the Sigismund and Abaddon pre-Heresy for Sigismund to stalk the battlefield specifically searching for the First Captain of the Sons of Horus.
> 
> Perhaps it's because he made it his mission to hunt down the traitor champions (and Abaddon is _the_ traitor champion)? Because Abaddon was a commander integral to the traitor's plans during the Siege? Perhaps Keeler gave him a vision of what Abaddon was destined to become?


Yes to both of these but with one caveat. I have no doubt that Sigismund would make it a point to try and kill Abaddon during the Siege of Terra but I think that before that, there is one warrior out of every single traitor besieging the palace that he would personally want to end. Kharn. These two were friends and Sigismund's closest relationship aside from the Primarch appears to have been Kharn, and we know that Kharn is found dead during the Siege on top of a mountain of corpses. I think Sigismund is the one who killed him, after all who else could have done it? So while I think eventually Sigismund will be hunting Abaddon, I think that first he would be hunting Kharn.



Angel of Blood said:


> If you still need that glimmer of hope though. Just try and do what I do.
> 
> Remember, the Lion


Don't forget Guilliman, Russ, Vulkan and the Khan.


LotN


----------



## Garrak

Am I the only one who now thinks that Sevatar should die by Sigismund's blade?


----------



## MontytheMighty

Garrak said:


> Am I the only one who now thinks that Sevatar should die by Sigismund's blade?


No, that would be an epic way for him to go

If it's cool for Sig to fall to Abs, it's just as cool for Sev to fall to Sig IMO


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Will to forgive Sigismund's eventual outcome if...Betrayer Spoilers



You bring back Argel Tal  

@Dead.Blue.Clown


----------



## Angel of Blood

Lord of the Night said:


> Don't forget Guilliman, Russ, Vulkan and the Khan.
> LotN


Well I still consider Guilliman to be dead, and I always will as it categorically states he is, but let's not open that can. As for the others, as I said in my post, with the nature of 40k they are all likely to be dead, where as the Lion is the only one known to be officialy alive.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Angel of Blood said:


> Well I still consider Guilliman to be dead, and I always will as it categorically states he is, but let's not open that can. As for the others, as I said in my post, with the nature of 40k they are all likely to be dead, where as the Lion is the only one known to be officialy alive.


Pilgrims state he is healing.

After Annedale's book, we can no longer believe stasis fields are effective.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

There's a "stasis" field called the Iron Lung or something used by the Iron Hands that allows them to heal a bit over time. Think it's in Angel Exterminatus.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Yes but that Iron Hands captain wasn't dead. Guilliman is described as dead in numerous entries, being put into stasis when he died. But again, there's plenty of threads on this. Let's not derail this thread.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Angel of Blood said:


> Yes but that Iron Hands captain wasn't dead. Guilliman is described as dead in numerous entries, being put into stasis when he died. But again, there's plenty of threads on this. Let's not derail this thread.


I believe it's something along the lines of "at the point of death", which yeah...sounds like he's dead but it could also mean "on the verge of death" 

...and let's not forget that *there have been real-life people who have come back from clinical death/brain death* (look it up online...there have been documented cases). Guilliman is a superhuman primarch. 



Words_of_Truth said:


> There's a "stasis" field called the Iron Lung or something used by the Iron Hands that allows them to heal a bit over time. Think it's in Angel Exterminatus.


I believe the device is called the Heart of Iron. I think it's also been established in the fluff that at least some stasis fields don't literally stop time, they merely slow the passage of time down to a snail's pace


----------



## Lord of the Night

Malus Darkblade said:


> Pilgrims state he is healing.
> 
> After Annandale's book, we can no longer believe stasis fields are effective.


I think you mean CZ Dunn. And one book that has a slightly different approach to an esoteric piece of 40k technology does not alter the fundamental lore.


As for Guilliman what I read on his "death" says that Fulgrim slashed his throat with a poison sword that would have killed him but Guilliman was put into stasis on the "very moment before death" and that the stasis field preserves his life. If the Heart of Iron did find it's way to Guilliman then it's definitely possible that Guilliman has been slowly healing over 10,000 years. Assuming it did find it's way to him, being used on a single Iron Hands Captain that was last seen fleeing a Crone World near the Eye of Terror is a long way away from somehow ending up at Ultramar.


LotN


----------



## DeathJester921

Lord of the Night said:


> I think you mean CZ Dunn. And one book that has a slightly different approach to an esoteric piece of 40k technology does not alter the fundamental lore.
> 
> 
> As for Guilliman what I read on his "death" says that Fulgrim slashed his throat with a poison sword that would have killed him but Guilliman was put into stasis on the "very moment before death" and that the stasis field preserves his life. If the Heart of Iron did find it's way to Guilliman then it's definitely possible that Guilliman has been slowly healing over 10,000 years. Assuming it did find it's way to him, being used on a single Iron Hands Captain that was last seen fleeing a Crone World near the Eye of Terror is a long way away from somehow ending up at Ultramar.
> 
> 
> LotN


Well, we never got an explanation on where their ship was off to when they were leaving. They very well could have ended up in Ultramar at some point with a healed captain and a shiny piece of tech that could heal Guilliman when he ends up in the stasis field. Assuming GW wants to take the fluff in this direction.


----------



## forkmaster

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Does this little snippet of info we've got about Sigismund imply that Dorn was killed before the First Black Crusade? Although, obviously, it was never stated he fell to the First Black Crusade, just assumed so by many fans.
> 
> 
> Debatable.


No its more of _A_ Black Crusade, rather than _the first_. But I meant if this is met with positive attitude, perhaps ADB will take a SMB and write about the event if this is successful. 



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> And again...:
> 
> _"I thought that's where Dorn went down originally, but nope. Dorn dies aboard the Sword of Sacrilege in "a Black Crusade" between the First and Second (apparently not even one of Abaddon's, according to the Lore Peeps). I've got the actual date in my notes, but I'm on my iPad on my break. Early M32, I think. A couple of hundred years after the First Black Crusade, either way. (This all came from one of the meetings/documents where we had to plan out just what actual dates the primarchs all went down.)
> 
> Which is annoying, as I had this whole theme idea of it being the moment the Imperium finally has to accept that the tides have changed, and so on. But we had a bunch of talks about this, and Dorn was off the cards for anything like that. Someone wanted to do something with him elsewhere at some point, so it was vetoed by virtue of them asking first. No biggie, though. Ideas are free. Always more where they came from, and I prefer the resonance and symmetry of it being Sigismund. Someone else can tell Dorn's tale."_


Thank you for the the full information. It was like that I thought to be most likely!  I still believe you could have done a great SBM like called _The Fall of the Imperial Fist_ or something like that. But if someone else is doing something with him, I will wait with huge excitement.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

forkmaster said:


> No its more of _A_ Black Crusade, rather than _the first_. But I meant if this is met with positive attitude, perhaps ADB will take a SMB and write about the event if this is successful.


Yes, the old lore doesn't specifically mention it as the First Black Crusade, it simple says "_a_ Black Crusade." Although it does mention that this Black Crusade was a significant assault on the Cadian Gate (rather than elsewhere) and that it "threatened to envelop Cadia" - perhaps implying that this Black Crusade occurred after Cadia had been fortified (and thus after Abaddon's First Black Crusade).


----------



## Khorne's Fist

What I would love to see from this series is a tie in with the Ahriman series. The two writers seem to be good mates, and with these two iconic CSM characters bouncing off each other it could only lead to win all round.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Khorne's Fist said:


> What I would love to see from this series is a tie in with the Ahriman series. The two writers seem to be good mates, and with these two iconic CSM characters bouncing off each other it could only lead to win all round.


I've read somewhere that ADB intends for that to happen.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I've read somewhere that ADB intends for that to happen.


That makes me tingly in my happy place. :grin:


----------



## forkmaster

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yes, the old lore doesn't specifically mention it as the First Black Crusade, it simple says "_a_ Black Crusade." Although it does mention that this Black Crusade was a significant assault on the Cadian Gate (rather than elsewhere) and that it "threatened to envelop Cadia" - perhaps implying that this Black Crusade occurred after Cadia had been fortified (and thus after Abaddon's First Black Crusade).


You could most definitely be right about it! 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I've read somewhere that ADB intends for that to happen.


Same here, as both main-characters are of Thousand Sons origins and one used to follow the other, they might come across each other sooner or later.


----------



## Vitarus

forkmaster said:


> Same here, as both main-characters are of Thousand Sons origins and one used to follow the other, they might come across each other sooner or later.


What do you mean? Abaddon wasn't Thousand Sons. Who are you talking about?


----------



## Stop Making Sense

Vitarus, Iskandar Khayon and Ahriman.


----------



## Vitarus

Ah. Thanks. I lost track. Heh


----------



## gothik

just pre ordered mine, after reading this massive thread thought how can i not. so happy happy


----------



## Lord of the Night

gothik said:


> just pre ordered mine, after reading this massive thread thought how can i not. so happy happy


I'm waiting to pre-order mine, ADB mentioned that something is going to happen in August regarding The Talon of Horus and I want to see what it is;

http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2014/06/15/the-talon-of-horus-and-an-fsog-interview/


LotN


----------



## evanswolves

_The Talon of Horus_ will be the first book released under the new banner of First Edition

The First Edition of_ The Talon of Horus_ will be a rare beast indeed and only a small number of them will ever be printed. To make sure you don’t miss out on a chance to own a copy, sign up for Comm-Feed - the Limited Edition Text Reminder Service.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

evanswolves said:


> _The Talon of Horus_ will be the first book released under the new banner of First Edition
> 
> The First Edition of_ The Talon of Horus_ will be a rare beast indeed and only a small number of them will ever be printed. To make sure you don’t miss out on a chance to own a copy, sign up for Comm-Feed - the Limited Edition Text Reminder Service.


Sounds like yet another limited edition-type thing. With the release date for 'normal' editions probably pushed back further.

I'll wait to hear more though.


----------



## forkmaster

Milking the cow. Dammit I who really want this book!


----------



## The Scion of Chemos

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Sounds like yet another limited edition-type thing. With the release date for 'normal' editions probably pushed back further.
> 
> I'll wait to hear more though.


In the email, it said that the normal version was out 2 weeks after.
So not that big a gap at least!


----------



## Tawa

The Scion of Chemos said:


> In the email, it said that the normal version was out 2 weeks after.
> So not that big a gap at least!


Aye, for the standard Hardback version.


----------



## Garviel loken.

Hmm I wonder if loken or aximand will make an appearence


----------



## ckcrawford

Being poor sucks. :ireful2:


----------



## ckcrawford

Just realized, to attract more people to our forums should I change the name of the thread? And if so what to? The first book?


----------



## Angel of Blood

Garviel loken. said:


> Hmm I wonder if loken or aximand will make an appearence


Not a chance. A cameo name drop at most, but even that I find unlikely in the extreme.


----------



## Lord of the Night

evanswolves said:


> _The Talon of Horus_ will be the first book released under the new banner of First Edition
> 
> The First Edition of_ The Talon of Horus_ will be a rare beast indeed and only a small number of them will ever be printed. To make sure you don’t miss out on a chance to own a copy, sign up for Comm-Feed - the Limited Edition Text Reminder Service.


Getting. This. Without a doubt!


LotN


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Tawa said:


> Aye, for the standard Hardback version.


I'm glad I switched to ebooks a while back! 



ckcrawford said:


> Just realized, to attract more people to our forums should I change the name of the thread? And if so what to? The first book?


I think only mods can change thread titles after they're published. 



Garviel loken. said:


> Hmm I wonder if loken or aximand will make an appearence


As _Angel_ said, a passing mention at most, and even then I find that highly unlikely, and that is a good thing. ADB is on record as saying he prefers not to cross-over too many characters between different settings/series when there are so many different and new ones to explore (or something to that effect).


----------



## Tawa

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I'm glad I switched to ebooks a while back!


I'm a sucker for paperbacks....


----------



## Sev

This sneak peek gives you a glimpse of the detailed cover embossing, just one of the many special treatments this book’s been given. 
Without a doubt, First Edition: _The Talon of Horus_ is the most lavish book we’ve produced to date.










I really want this, but it sounds incredibly expensive...


----------



## evanswolves

Wonder if theyll take the Horus heresy series this route aswell...


----------



## Tawa

It's always a possibility.

But I imagine there's more than enough going on with the HH as it is


----------



## forkmaster

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> As _Angel_ said, a passing mention at most, and even then I find that highly unlikely, and that is a good thing. ADB is on record as saying he prefers not to cross-over too many characters between different settings/series when there are so many different and new ones to explore (or something to that effect).


I do recall ADB having a convo with either Dan or Graham about what characters they should leave out from dying in the HH-series in case ADB wants to use them, so there are some possibillities that some might make an appearence. Aximand seems unlikely, but perhaps some of the smaller characters.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

forkmaster said:


> I do recall ADB having a convo with either Dan or Graham about what characters they should leave out from dying in the HH-series in case ADB wants to use them, so there are some possibillities that some might make an appearence. Aximand seems unlikely, but perhaps some of the smaller characters.


Characters like Kibre I imagine will make an appearance at some in point the series (if not in the first novel) because we know The Widowmaker becomes a powerful lieutenant of the Black Legion. In my opinion, Aximand and Loken are likely to meet their fates during the Heresy series though so I can't see them making appearances. There are going to be tonnes of new characters to enjoy, which I am looking forward to.


----------



## forkmaster

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Characters like Kibre I imagine will make an appearance at some in point the series (if not in the first novel) because we know The Widowmaker becomes a powerful lieutenant of the Black Legion. In my opinion, Aximand and Loken are likely to meet their fates during the Heresy series though so I can't see them making appearances. There are going to be tonnes of new characters to enjoy, which I am looking forward to.


My thoughts exactly both on Kibre, Aximand/Loken and the new characters.


----------



## Chaosveteran

Sev said:


> This sneak peek gives you a glimpse of the detailed cover embossing, just one of the many special treatments this book’s been given.
> Without a doubt, First Edition: _The Talon of Horus_ is the most lavish book we’ve produced to date.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really want this, but it sounds incredibly expensive...


When is it coming out????


----------



## Garviel loken.

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Characters like Kibre I imagine will make an appearance at some in point the series (if not in the first novel) because we know The Widowmaker becomes a powerful lieutenant of the Black Legion. In my opinion, Aximand and Loken are likely to meet their fates during the Heresy series though so I can't see them making appearances. There are going to be tonnes of new characters to enjoy, which I am looking forward to.


i hope loken has a glorious death during the siege of terra.


----------



## Angel of Lies

I never pre-order any kind of book. It goes against the penny-pincher side of me that dominates most things.

But for this, and because it ADB who wrote it, I'll make an exception. I never even heard of this guy until I read the Night Lords Trilogy awhile back and he's quickly become one of my favorite authors of 40k stuff.


----------



## Brother Lucian

I hope they will release an ebook version of it, the limited 1500 sale set for 22th august.


----------



## Lord of the Night

£40 huh. Not so bad all things considered. A LE novella costs £30 and is about one-quarter at least or one-third at most of the word count. I'll be getting this, though it does mean i'll be putting off some other books to get it. Worth it in my opinion.


LotN


----------



## Angel of Blood

I imagine this is going to be the first limited edition race to buy since Aurellian.


----------



## Doelago

Damn, I am at work that evening. Will have to try to time a coffee break right on top of it and hit it via the phone.


----------



## evanswolves

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feTytlRd2KY
:biggrin:
Is this release going to be signed aswell?
Really hope i manage to get a copy


----------



## Sev

50€ is a pleasant surprise, I feared it would be in the price range of _Macragge's Honour_ or _Arjac Rockfist_. This will sell out fast, I hope the site won't crash.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

They've released a sample chapter on the BL website. A very intriguing read.


----------



## Sevatar

I feel my resolve not to buy limited editions weakening. Must. Hold. Fast.


----------



## Garviel loken.

Sevatar said:


> I feel my resolve not to buy limited editions weakening. Must. Hold. Fast.


give in to the dark side. join us in purchasing limited edition goodness


----------



## Vaz

Going to wait for my sources to provide it. No way I'm going to continue to sink money into extortionate upselling.

Sorry, Dead.Blue.Clown, as excited as I am about that, I fail to see the need to sell "Limited Edition" prints when you're going to release it later anyway. It's effectively forcing people (well, at least one) away. I'm voting with my pocket, (and have emailed Black Library that I'm not happy with the practise), and will continue to look elsewhere for the story.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Vaz said:


> Going to wait for my sources to provide it. No way I'm going to continue to sink money into extortionate upselling.
> 
> Sorry, Dead.Blue.Clown, as excited as I am about that, I fail to see the need to sell "Limited Edition" prints when you're going to release it later anyway. It's effectively forcing people (well, at least one) away. I'm voting with my pocket, (and have emailed Black Library that I'm not happy with the practise), and will continue to look elsewhere for the story.


It comes in a faux leather cover and at an earlier date than the normal versions. I don't see the harm in BL's decision to go through with this limited edition especially when I assume authors get more royalties as a result.

Just having read the first chapter solidified my expectations of this book's quality.


----------



## Khyzer

My question is whether every subsequent novel in this series will have a similar "First Edition" release... I'm OCD as hell regarding my bookshelf, and I need books that belong in the same series to be of the same format. If they will then I will purchase this novel, but if not... I shall be joining the malcontents and waiting for the regular editions.


----------



## Vaz

Malus Darkblade said:


> It comes in a faux leather cover and at an earlier date than the normal versions. I don't see the harm in BL's decision to go through with this limited edition especially when I assume authors get more royalties as a result.
> 
> Just having read the first chapter solidified my expectations of this book's quality.


So it's going to look out of place among my OCD satisfactory bookshelf as well? Yeah, TPB, here I come!


----------



## Brother Lucian

I asked Black Library about the Talon of Horus and just got this response:

Hi Lucian,

Thank you for your email. A Standard version of this book and the eBook will be available in October.


Many thanks,


Stuart 



Im going to hold out for the standard version.


----------



## forkmaster

I'm reading the first chapter of "ToH" in the wait for the full book. Loving the written prose. Very talently flowing. From the little I gather this is some great stuff. I also like the name on "the planet of Sorcerers" as I think it sounds better in speaking terms and the description "made from shrieking souls" is excellente. Khayon seems much different from the other Astartes ADB has written about in the past. This one seems much more emotional and that will be interesting to explore.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

I also liked the added bit of flavour ADB has given the Rubricae, compared to how _Ahriman: Exile_ did.


----------



## Tawa

October?

That's not to far away. I can wait :good:


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I also liked the added bit of flavour ADB has given the Rubricae, compared to how _Ahriman: Exile_ did.




The Dark Eldar captive was what caught my eye.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> The Dark Eldar captive was what caught my eye.




And that.

To be honest, there was quite a lot to mull over after just that chapter. 


I'm very much looking forward to this.


----------



## Lord of the Night

I read this extract some time ago, it was the sneak preview available in the Renegades of the Dark Millennium anthology. Was great then, still great now.




I found the prologue the most interesting to mull over. Khayon turns himself into the Inquisition, already unheard of, and after they torture him he is telling his entire story to a simple Servitor. Really makes you wonder what has happened over the ten thousand years to make him do such a thing, maybe something immense happened at the 13th Black Crusade, or maybe something has been building up in him slowly over the entire course of his service to Abaddon and as the apocalypse begins, it finally breaks.

Wonder if Abaddon will come to rescue him, or if he'll be left to rot. Again, lots and lots to think about.

Also I think that the Amanesis' line to Khayon near the end is the best description of Astartes i've seen yet. It's poetic and thoughtful, yet blunt and straight to the point;

_"We do not think you are a man Khayon. We think you are a weapon with lingering traces of humanity."_




LotN


----------



## forkmaster

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I also liked the added bit of flavour ADB has given the Rubricae, compared to how _Ahriman: Exile_ did.


Yeah I liked that too, but French-interpretation wasn't to shabby as well.  Or did you men something else?



Lord of the Night said:


> Also I think that the Amanesis' line to Khayon near the end is the best description of Astartes i've seen yet. It's poetic and thoughtful, yet blunt and straight to the point;
> 
> _"We do not think you are a man Khayon. We think you are a weapon with lingering traces of humanity."_


Loved that one as well.  Great work overall. I think this could be his best written book up to date, even passing by TFH, Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver. I love that he chose a former TS as a main-character. They post-Rubric are always interesting and deeply unexplored IMO.


----------



## bobss

Khyzer said:


> My question is whether every subsequent novel in this series will have a similar "First Edition" release... I'm OCD as hell regarding my bookshelf, and I need books that belong in the same series to be of the same format. If they will then I will purchase this novel, but if not... I shall be joining the malcontents and waiting for the regular editions.


Don't quite understand this.

Bookshelves are fucking dust magnets, and yet your self-diagnosed OCD is worried about their format? Dust damages books, formats don't (unless it's those American mass-market paperbacks that literally use tracing paper).

Just keep them in a nice big plastic tupperware box, mate. No dust. No sunlight. No frustration.

Anyway, looking forward to this book immensely.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Lord of the Night said:


> I read this extract some time ago, it was the sneak preview available in the Renegades of the Dark Millennium anthology. Was great then, still great now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I found the prologue the most interesting to mull over. Khayon turns himself into the Inquisition, already unheard of, and after they torture him he is telling his entire story to a simple Servitor. Really makes you wonder what has happened over the ten thousand years to make him do such a thing, maybe something immense happened at the 13th Black Crusade, or maybe something has been building up in him slowly over the entire course of his service to Abaddon and as the apocalypse begins, it finally breaks.
> 
> Wonder if Abaddon will come to rescue him, or if he'll be left to rot. Again, lots and lots to think about.
> 
> Also I think that the Amanesis' line to Khayon near the end is the best description of Astartes i've seen yet. It's poetic and thoughtful, yet blunt and straight to the point;
> 
> _"We do not think you are a man Khayon. We think you are a weapon with lingering traces of humanity."_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LotN


Hrm, I read the just released preview. Did you read it right? Or was it a different preview from the one in Renegadges of the Dark Millenium?


I saw no mentions of the inquisition. Khayon is waking upon his ship, the Tlaloc and having an encounter with the intelligence commanding his ship.


----------



## Angel of Blood

That's the first chapter. LotN is referencing the prologue.


----------



## forkmaster

I think we just saw the first image on Khayon here!

Trailer for the book!


----------



## forkmaster

Here are the images. I wonder who Telemachon Lyras might be! Also some of the extra content is a short I believe never to be printed again. That sucks.


----------



## Lord of the Night

forkmaster said:


> Here are the images. I wonder who Telemachon Lyras might be! Also some of the extra content is a short I believe never to be printed again. That sucks.


Telemachon Lyras is the Blademaster of the Black Legion, a former Emperor's Children, and is one of Khayon's rivals. He also apparantely looks like a boss! As does Khayon, that is a sweet axe.

So in addition to the main story the novel also features at least three extra stories. Extinction, a story that was first featured in the Games Day Anthology. Chosen of Chaos, a 1000-word story that first introduces the Ezekarion. And this new story The Wonderworker, which could be anything.

Can't wait to place my order!!


LotN


----------



## evanswolves

Available from 1PM


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

I'd very much like to know what _The Wonderworker_ is before I decide whether or not to buy this edition. How long it is, will it ever appear again etc. I'm in the habit of buying ebooks now instead of prints so I want to know if it's worth me forking out for this. Hopefully Aaron will see this during his lurking and reply! :laugh:


----------



## ckcrawford

I feel so bad. This seems like a fun read if you can get it. I would definitely do so if I could.


----------



## ckcrawford

Wow, I actually got something for my Bday! I'm getting this! Is there a limited edition amount of them? It will be crazy if the site ends up like what happened with ADB's first limited edition book coming out.

P.S..... don't want sound like... a dick or something... no autograph?


----------



## Brother Lucian

1500 copies only. I expect them to go fast, given the popularity of Aurelian.


----------



## evanswolves

ckcrawford said:


> Wow, I actually got something for my Bday! I'm getting this! Is there a limited edition amount of them? It will be crazy if the site ends up like what happened with ADB's first limited edition book coming out.
> 
> P.S..... don't want sound like... a dick or something... no autograph?


What happened to the site? crashed? i wasnt reading Warhammer stuff when that book first came out


----------



## Garviel loken.

ckcrawford said:


> Wow, I actually got something for my Bday! I'm getting this! Is there a limited edition amount of them? It will be crazy if the site ends up like what happened with ADB's first limited edition book coming out.
> 
> P.S..... don't want sound like... a dick or something... no autograph?


Have a glorious birthday


----------



## ckcrawford

Thanks. Finally got something for my bday. Might as well enjoy it with a read.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

1 PM London time. That's 8 AM for me. Fuck me.


----------



## ckcrawford

7 am. I feel like Arnold trying to buy his Turbo man on Christmas Eve.


----------



## Angel of Blood

And so it begins, and I'm going to be attempting this on my mobile.....


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Angel of Blood said:


> And so it begins, and I'm going to be attempting this on my mobile.....


I wouldn't be surprised if someone has a bot set to buy a couple dozen copies followed by him ebaying them for triple the price.


----------



## forkmaster

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I'd very much like to know what _The Wonderworker_ is before I decide whether or not to buy this edition. How long it is, will it ever appear again etc. I'm in the habit of buying ebooks now instead of prints so I want to know if it's worth me forking out for this. Hopefully Aaron will see this during his lurking and reply! :laugh:


ADB posted a new entry about it *here*. Also I'm giggling a tiny bit, because I think he used my Youtube-prints which I posted here in that entry.



ADB said:


> The Wonderworker is where things get both more and less traditional. It’s set between The Talon of Horus and before the next novel, which will be called The Black Legion. It’s traditional in that sense: it’s a short story that bridges the gap between the first and second books. It’s a little less traditional in the fact it’s a special reward for the guys and girls that grab the First Edition – as far as I know, it won’t ever be printed again. With that in mind – much like when I wrote Aurelian – I wanted something interesting and worth the effort to get hold of, but nothing vital to the series’ narrative. If you miss it, you’re not going to be in the dark about anything. If you get hold of it, you’ll get a look at some of the fallout after the first book, an early glance at some new characters coming in the second novel, and see another step in the Black Legion’s ascension. It’s more of the story if you want more of it. No more, no less.


It doesn't reveal much of the story but character-introduction (kinda like _The Dead Oracle_-short I imagine), perhaps some character development and teasing. _Aurelian_ I would say was really worth its weight so I can imagine if this anything remotely like that, it makes it worth it. However I can justify the price of 400 for me personally as a poor student even though its actually a full book and not just a novella. :/ If anyone on here get a hold of it, I would like a short summarization perhaps as I wait for the pocket version.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

forkmaster said:


> ADB posted a new entry about it *here*. Also I'm giggling a tiny bit, because I think he used my Youtube-prints which I posted here in that entry.


He did use them, that wretched dog.


----------



## forkmaster

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> He did use them, that wretched dog.


Even though it's stupid of me, I only feel honoured!


----------



## Lord of the Night

forkmaster said:


> ADB posted a new entry about it *here*. Also I'm giggling a tiny bit, because I think he used my Youtube-prints which I posted here in that entry.


Four internal character prints! YAAAY! And my hopes for which characters get art prints go to... Lheor and The Fallen Angel. Lheor because the idea of a sane Khorne Berzerker is awesome, and the Fallen Angel because the weapons ADB mentioned he had in a twitter entry sound awesome, even considering where the idea came from. And because I am really hoping he is a true Fallen Angel.



ADB said:


> There are four pieces of internal artwork - Paul Dainton’s interpretations of the main characters – all of which I actually have framed for my games room because I loved them so much.


Very jealous of you atm ADB. Would love to have Khayon and the gang next to my art print of the novel's cover.


LotN


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Lord of the Night said:


> Four internal character prints! YAAAY! And my hopes for which characters get art prints go to... Lheor and The Fallen Angel. Lheor because the idea of a sane Khorne Berzerker is awesome, and the Fallen Angel because the weapons ADB mentioned he had in a twitter entry sound awesome, even considering where the idea came from. And because I am really hoping he is a true Fallen Angel.
> 
> 
> Very jealous of you atm ADB. Would love to have Khayon and the gang next to my art print of the novel's cover.
> 
> 
> LotN


The Fallen Angel doesn't show up in the first novel, he was cut an eternity ago. Long enough ago that I'd forgotten he was even supposed to be in the first novel. He'll show up in Book II, though.


----------



## forkmaster

Lord of the Night said:


> and the Fallen Angel because the weapons ADB mentioned he had in a twitter entry sound awesome, even considering where the idea came from. And because I am really hoping he is a true Fallen Angel.
> 
> LotN


What kind of weapons did he mention?


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

forkmaster said:


> What kind of weapons did he mention?


That character will have a lightning claw and a sword. Which is coincidentally what Lion-O uses in _ThunderCats_.

I'm not ashamed. Not even guilty.


----------



## evanswolves

Its up to order now!


----------



## Brother Lucian

Huh, thats unexpected! And hearing of the LE content stories, I decided to cave in and buy the Talon of Horus. Order confirmed.

Best spread the word asap, or theres going to be LOTS of disappointed people come 1pm BST


----------



## evanswolves

No longer up for order, gone back to "remind me"
My order is still acknowledged


----------



## Brother Lucian

evanswolves said:


> No longer up for order, gone back to "remind me"
> My order is still acknowledged


I wonder how many they managed to sell, before the glitch was discovered.


----------



## forkmaster

Brother Lucian said:


> I wonder how many they managed to sell, before the glitch was discovered.


Which glitch?


----------



## Brother Lucian

forkmaster said:


> Which glitch?


Read back, Talon of Horus was temporarilly put on sale too early. I got my order in.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> That character will have a lightning claw and a sword. Which is coincidentally what Lion-O uses in _ThunderCats_.
> 
> I'm not ashamed. Not even guilty.


I thought it was a sword and a shield with grappling claws built-in.

Nor should you be. Tis an awesome weapons combination. Just as long as Abaddon never says "I'll call on my friends for help!"


LotN


----------



## evanswolves

Just hope that they will honour the orders that were made


----------



## Brother Lucian

Some people on other wh40k forums got it during the glitch as well.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Brother Lucian said:


> Some people on other wh40k forums got it during the glitch as well.


Hopefully there'll still be enough copies left, since nobody could have predicted the glitch would occur and be ready to exploit it.


LotN


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lord of the Night said:


> Hopefully there'll still be enough copies left, since nobody could have predicted the glitch would occur and be ready to exploit it.
> 
> 
> LotN


Don't worry there'll probably still be copies left next week, it's not going to have sold out before they intended to have put it on sale!


----------



## Brother Lucian

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Don't worry there'll probably still be copies left next week, let alone this afternoon.


Considering how fast Aurelian sold out, I wouldnt bet on that.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Another glitch occured. Got my copy. :grin:


LotN


----------



## Brother Lucian

Hrm, their web team seems to be slacking today for such a major release.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Brother Lucian said:


> Hrm, their web team seems to be slacking today for such a major release.


Their web team's been slacking for a lot longer then that, at least it seems that way.


LotN


----------



## Brother Lucian

Well looks like its the real deal now. The frontpage changed with an advert for the Talon of Horus.


----------



## evanswolves

back up to order again


----------



## forkmaster

Brother Lucian said:


> Considering how fast Aurelian sold out, I wouldnt bet on that.


It looked like it sold out rather quickly, but when the servers became operational again, it turned out around 500 copies of both silver and gold remained there and it took at least several days before they were cleared out.  Not compared to another novella thats _STILL_ available. :laugh:


----------



## Tyrannus

Seems odd for a glitch. Seeing as it's on the front page with a big red "BUY NOW" button.

Ahh well, I ordered a copy anyway


----------



## Brother Lucian

I hazard a guess that they all didnt sell out fast, because the server borked. So lets see what happens today, if all of them vanish fast - that be IF the server keeps stable.

Edit: To Tyrannus. It briefly came up for sale over an hour ago. Which is where I got my order in.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Just about to put mine in, but the website is coming up with "fatal errors" again. BL website is such a shambles. :laugh:


----------



## Brother Lucian

Not suprised, now that the crowd is storming in as it just hit 1pm BST. Not everyone checks forums, or going to the lenght of being early.

Edit: Checked Black Library. Still loads fine, albeit a slight waiting time.

Edit 2: Ah, there Black Library croaked. Must have hit capacity.

Edit 3: Black Library is loading again, get em!


----------



## Bobbyfbrewster

mine seemed to crash as was proccesing my card but got an email confiming it. So hopfully all ok


----------



## ckcrawford

same. I was like... whoa... it kept on declining my cards. Then I pulled my secret one....


----------



## Doelago

Attempted to buy the sodding thing for 20 minutes but the site just kept fucking with me. Suddenly my basket turned empty and I cannot add it again, so I assume that either BL hates me or it has sold out. 

Edit: Just got a confirmation email, so I assume at least one of my purchase attempts went through.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Theres one on bolter and chainsword claiming its sold out as well.


----------



## evanswolves

Says on BL site its out of stock aswell


----------



## Brother Lucian

Maybe there will be more available, like with Aurelian due to the website crashing. Though I wouldnt hedge my bets on it.


----------



## Sevatar

I just put in my order and received a confirmation e-mail too. The site didn't even misbehave. Strange.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Site still says In-Stock as of this post. So if you want one, get on there asap.


LotN


----------



## Angel of Blood

Yep just bought mine, sites behaving again.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Aye, still seeing in stock on my screen.


----------



## Angel of Blood

For ages I couldn't add it to basket, was going spare!


----------



## Sev

Got my order in as well, no problems here. Can't wait to read this, thankfully they're already shipping this next week.


----------



## Brother Lucian

They just changed the advert to saying 400 left.


----------



## Angel of Lies

Damn. It wont take my card. So close....


----------



## ckcrawford

This is awesome.


----------



## ckcrawford

I wonder how much people will sell them for on ebay or such. Someone I know bought 4. I was like... Your an asshole.


----------



## evanswolves

ckcrawford said:


> I wonder how much people will sell them for on ebay or such. Someone I know bought 4. I was like... Your an asshole.


Theres a few up there at the moment, going/asking for £80


----------



## forkmaster

ADB just wrote around 300 are still around.


----------



## Angel of Lies

Is there some trick to paying BL? They seem pretty adament not to take my money. Lol.


----------



## Brother Lucian

200 remaining now, running low.

Sure selling out fast as expected.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Looks like it's time to PM ADB and ask for his bank account details.


----------



## Angel of Blood

You not managed to get one yet?


----------



## March of Time

It's sold out!


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Angel of Blood said:


> You not managed to get one yet?


I actually woke up on time but went back to sleep as I couldn't be bothered to get my laptop and credit card


----------



## Brother Lucian

Definitely a feat to sell out a limited 1500 run this fast.

I expected all of them to be gone today, nothing left for next week. Unlike in the case of the 'nobody' Arjac Rockfist, whom they are still trying to unload the last LE novels of.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Brother Lucian said:


> Definitely a feat to sell out a limited 1500 run this fast.
> 
> I expected all of them to be gone today, nothing left for next week. Unlike in the case of the 'nobody' Arjac Rockfist, whom they are still trying to unload the last LE novels of.


He's already unwrapped the cuban cigars no doubt. What happened at 1 PM London time is possibly the best compliment he could get in regards to his writing.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Clearly the Black Library mailservers are overworked, just got a mail saying that the Talon of Horus is available and 300 left, already outdated.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Regarding the Wonderworker. Came across this snippet on ADB's facebook page:

_The Wonderworker _is where things get both more and less traditional. It’s set between _The Talon of Horus _and before the next novel, which will be called _The Black Legion. _It’s traditional in that sense: it’s a short story that bridges the gap between the first and second books. It’s a little less traditional in the fact it’s a special reward for the guys and girls that grab the First Edition – as far as I know, it won’t ever be printed again. With that in mind – much like when I wrote _Aurelian_ – I wanted something interesting and worth the effort to get hold of, but nothing vital to the series’ narrative. If you miss it, you’re not going to be in the dark about anything. If you get hold of it, you’ll get a look at some of the fallout after the first book, an early glance at some new characters coming in the second novel, and see another step in the Black Legion’s ascension. It’s more of the story if you want more of it. No more, no less.


----------



## ckcrawford

It actually started before time here. I just couldn't get any of my credit cards to work.


----------



## Angel of Blood

So didn't manage to get one?


----------



## ckcrawford

Angel of Blood said:


> So didn't manage to get one?


I was on since it should have first opened. So I actually did eventually get it. How about you?


----------



## Anakwanar

No fucking luck.
The best part is: i placed it in my basket and went to the bank. 

Got back in 30 minutes to fullfil the payment and guess what? 

My basket is empty - the book is sold out. 

WTF - my cart should be secure, then i placed products in it, i definitely gonna buy, right? 

So fuckingly disappointed with all that shite


----------



## World Eater XII

I sat at work and refreshed the payment page until i got an order form through on email! lucky break!!


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Come on lads. Time to show the book that just arrived at your doorstep.


----------



## Brother Lucian

They dont send it off before monday.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Brother Lucian said:


> They dont send it off before monday.


And since Monday is a bank holiday it might not be sent off until Tuesday.


LotN


----------



## bobss

Pity there isn't a universal release for this. Could've generated a nice bit of discussion, I bet.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Hrm? the hardback and standard release is in october.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Brother Lucian said:


> Hrm? the hardback and standard release is in october.


Not so! 19th of September.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/exclusive-products/talon-of-horus-hardback.html


----------



## Brother Lucian

Huh, earlier than I heard. Cheers ADB.


----------



## 40kBookReviews

Would have loved to have a copy of that sitting on my book shelf.
Looks really awesome.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Question to ADB: Have you currently any idea how long this series is going to run, or is it not plotted out yet? Merely wondering if we are looking at a trillogy or an epic closer to Gaunts Ghosts.


----------



## Sevatar

Brother Lucian said:


> Question to ADB: Have you currently any idea how long this series is going to run, or is it not plotted out yet? Merely wondering if we are looking at a trillogy or an epic closer to Gaunts Ghosts.


If I recall correctly ADB said that he'd like the Black Legion series to turn into his GG. Can't give you a source though (might have been in one of his blog entries).


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Sevatar said:


> If I recall correctly ADB said that he'd like the Black Legion series to turn into his GG. Can't give you a source though (might have been in one of his blog entries).


Something like that, yeah. Originally it was a 2-3 book idea, going from a Legion Wars story where a group of characters from various Legions come together for survival; then the Black Legion being founded by those guys; then an extract of the First Black Crusade. 

Black Library's response was essentially _"A duology or trilogy would be great, but why don't you stop screwing around and start a series like every other author?"_

That seemed like a good idea. Especially as there's so much to write about with this one.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Ah, promising indeed. You have quite the flair for showing the bad guy PoV and showing things is not as black and white as initially thought. Giving them character and personality. Definitely a series to get the full lenght of in First Editions for sure.


----------



## Garviel loken.

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Something like that, yeah. Originally it was a 2-3 book idea, going from a Legion Wars story where a group of characters from various Legions come together for survival; then the Black Legion being founded by those guys; then an extract of the First Black Crusade.
> 
> Black Library's response was essentially _"A duology or trilogy would be great, but why don't you stop screwing around and start a series like every other author?"_
> 
> That seemed like a good idea. Especially as there's so much to write about with this one.



Ah, glorious. Out of curiosity when in the timeline does this story take place? Is it shortly after the siege?


----------



## ckcrawford

Hopefully the novels ship out tomorrow. I'm excited!


----------



## Hoshi

Just read the Abaddon chosen of chaos short story. Very short but it did its job. Looking forward to hearing peoples impressions.


----------



## ckcrawford

Apparently they sent early yesterday.


----------



## evanswolves

Just got my shipping email :biggrin::yahoo:


----------



## Tyrannus

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this elsewhere, but I just got an email from BL telling me there are still some copies left. Here's the email:

"Hey reader,
We have some good news for you.

Due to a slight miscount by a renegade servitor, a very limited number of _The Talon of Horus _First Edition have become available.

As you were one of the people who set a reminder for the book, we wanted to give you the option of securing a copy. Due to the extremely limited numbers remaining, this book will not go back on general release, but you can order your copy right now, by following this link."

I've already got a copy so whoever still wants one now's your chance.


----------



## Doelago

Ouh, the temptation to order 10 copies and put them on eBay is so strong right now.


----------



## Tyrannus

Doelago said:


> Ouh, the temptation to order 10 copies and put them on eBay is so strong right now.


Don't be a douche 

I am putting this link out out of the kindness in my heart to let people who really want the book badly to have another chance. 

A small warning though: I got the email 2 hours ago.


----------



## March of Time

Tyrannus said:


> Don't be a douche
> 
> I am putting this link out out of the kindness in my heart to let people who really want the book badly to have another chance.
> 
> A small warning though: I got the email 2 hours ago.


But,but there going for £80 on EBay!:shok:


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

March of Time said:


> But,but there going for £80 on EBay!:shok:


Well, there's only 1 on there going at £80 that I can find at the moment. 

I'm still laughing about the fact I got over £200 for a copy of _Promethean Sun_. :laugh:


----------



## MontytheMighty

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I'm still laughing about the fact I got over £200 for a copy of _Promethean Sun_. :laugh:


Laughing to the bank...


----------



## ckcrawford

I wonder how many were left. The email only went out to those who had reminders right? I think thats what I remember.


----------



## theurge33

Got my shipping email too. I am curious to see if I get this before I receive Purge / last HH (I cant even remember the name, its been so long) that shipped July 31st ...


----------



## Anakwanar

WTF? I didn't get the reminder letter. Following your link it's OUT OF STOCK?


----------



## Brother Lucian

They did say it was an extremely limited number they had available due to miscounting.


----------



## Anakwanar

Well it was out of stock yesterday and it's out of stock today. I don't know how this reminder clients only thing should work


----------



## ckcrawford

Most likely sold our really fast.


----------



## Anakwanar

Sad - very sad. New price on ebay from the guy from Australia - 300 GBP for the book :laugh:


----------



## Good Minton

Arrived this morning. Quite a tome, does look good though.


----------



## evanswolves

Mine has arrived, theyve even done First Edition cardboard boxes to ship them in


----------



## Lord of the Night

evanswolves said:


> Mine has arrived, theyve even done First Edition cardboard boxes to ship them in


Mine arrived like that as well, very nice touch. And the book itself... Gorgeous ain't it.


LotN


----------



## evanswolves

It is stunning 
Im yet to read much by Nick Kyme (only Promethean Sun and a short story) but iam 100% getting his first edition after seeing The Talon of Horus


----------



## rx781a

I cant wait to get my copy.....anyone form the states get it yet?


----------



## Lord of the Night

Reading ToH now, massively enjoying it, and had to say this. Pages 114-115; that is without a doubt the creepiest, most disturbing and most horrific idea I have ever seen in a 40k book. Who can say if it's true or not, but if it is... damn.


LotN


----------



## Brother Lucian

Lucky, not arrived yet!


----------



## Lord of the Night

Brother Lucian said:


> Lucky, not arrived yet!


I like when i'm lucky. :grin:

One other awesome thing in the book so far: Lheor, or Lheorvine Urkis, has balls of iridium. Page 112 is the reason why.


LotN


----------



## Angel of Blood

Got mine today too. Assumed they would be signed and numbered, but meh, just want to read it now!


----------



## Anakwanar

Spoilers please - full spoiler review for the story
Please Lord


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lord of the Night said:


> Reading ToH now, massively enjoying it, and had to say this. Pages 114-115; that is without a doubt the creepiest, most disturbing and most horrific idea I have ever seen in a 40k book. Who can say if it's true or not, but if it is... damn.
> 
> 
> LotN


I'll keep an eye out for that.

I'm currently only 60-odd pages in but it is very captivating thus far.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Anakwanar said:


> Spoilers please - full spoiler review for the story
> Please Lord


Well i'll definitely review it, but it will be spoiler free. I'll post spoilers here though for discussion. Lots and lots and lots to talk about and i'm only 153 pages in.


LotN


----------



## Anakwanar

Lord - i don't mind spoilers - i want them. I want to know the main persons, their role and how the plots go. As i understand - it's all happening in the eye of terror, with no imperial on sight? 

What is sooo creepiest on Pages 114-115?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

I don't want to be a killjoy Anak, but wouldn't you get more enjoyment from reading it yourself? :laugh:


----------



## Anakwanar

Nope :biggrin: I will not wait till November


----------



## bobss

Most of you lads don't need telling this, but please endeavour to use spoiler tags whenever appropriate.

Myself and others who're getting the standard release want to keep viewing this thread for release information and general #hype without significant spoiler bombs being dropped. Cheers.


----------



## Lord of the Night

http://www.talkwargaming.com/2014/08/black-library-review-talon-of-horus.html

Finished it. Reviewed it here. To sum up my thoughts...

BEST. 40K. BOOK. YET!

I'll post some more spoilery thoughts here later, after I have something to eat. I will say this, _Void Stalker_ still remains my favourite book due to it's subject matter, but I acknowledge that _The Talon of Horus_ is better. And if the hints of what is to come in the next book are true, I think that Book II _The Black Legion_ might surpass _Void Stalker_ as my favourite book period.


LotN


----------



## Roninman

You always say after ADB book best book yet


----------



## Lord of the Night

Roninman said:


> You always say after ADB book best book yet


No, I say they are one of the best. And they tend to be. But I am utterly convinced that The Talon of Horus is BL's best book yet.

But again, that's opinion. Not fact.


LotN


----------



## Anakwanar

Lord of the Night said:


> 'll post some more spoilery thoughts here later


Patiently waiting :grin:


----------



## Lord of the Night

Anakwanar said:


> Patiently waiting :grin:


Patience is rewarded.

That said where to begin is tricky...

Ok, my thoughts on certain aspects of the novel that I enjoyed the most;

Iskandar Khayon:



Khayon is a very interesting character, aside from Abaddon and Sevatar I think he's ADB's best character yet. One of the first things I thought about him is that nobody can say that his humour is the same as Sevatar and Kharn because it isn't; Sevatar favoured sarcasm and Kharn cynicism, Khayon's humour is more about wit and dry humour. Two recurring jokes in the series are that everyone seems to think Khayon died at Drol Kheir, which he hears a lot, and that Khayon hates the word magic, which Lheor enjoys using. But the other part of his humour is being played off the others, he and Lheor together make some of the novel's funniest moments, and he has good back and forth with Telemachon and Nefertari as well.

He also has more sentiment than any Astartes seen before. The scene where he admits who the Anamnesis is, and that he rushed to her bedside when called was interesting, because it didn't specify if he was an Astartes then. The idea of her parents actually calling him to come and help when he was an Astartes is a surprising one, mostly because I don't think many would have bothered. Yet Khayon did, he even remembers his own mother's name when most Astartes can't and don't really care. And what he did for Nefertari is an incredible feat of sorcery that again is a massively sentimental act, simply because he is a person who needs other people around him. Khayon needs the bonds of brotherhood with people, even if all he can get is a Daemon-Wolf, a teenage Dark Eldar exile and a gestalt machine-spirit entity, he'll take that because he needs the companionship they offer.

Khayon's introspection forms a lot of the novel and he admits a lot about... well everything than we knew before. The nature of the Warp, the Gods, the Black Legion, Abaddon, the Thousand Sons, the Imperium, etc. All of it is up for discussion. I found all of his monologues and explanations to be interesting, sometimes creepy, and at one time downright terrifying. Since the narration is set in the 41st Millennium and by that point Khayon is a figure of legend across the galaxy, the Imperium having a list of titles and deeds attributed to him, though some completely wrong, it means that Khayon often talks about things that have yet to happen, which is quite teasing really. Lots of potentials in the series now, some I anticipate, some I dread.

One of the things I liked best about Khayon is the sense of irony in what he carries with him. He is a Thousand Son who has a familiar in the body of a Fenrisian Wolf, and who carries a Fenrisian Frost-axe called _Saern_, meaning truth in several Fenrisian dialects. The rest of what he has is just awesome, a tarot card deck filled with Daemonic souls bound to him, including one called The Ragged Knight which is a Khornate Daemon that was born from this;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade

And he's powerful. How powerful? He unmade one of the Gods own Champion Daemons. And he didn't brag or boast about it, which to me says that it wasn't hard for him. One of the four most powerful Daemons in creation, and he unmade it.



Nefertari:



Nefertari is one of my favourite characters of the novel along with Khayon, Lheor and Abaddon. And she is a continuance of ADB's tradition of pairing his Astartes protagonists with a strong female character. Talos and Octavia, Hyperion and Annika, Argel Tal and Cyrene, and now Khayon and Nefertari. One thing that I found quite amusing about her is that Khayon notes she is an adolescent by her people's standards, meaning that she is a teenage Dark Eldar. Plus she's a Scourge wielding dual crystal claws, a whip or a klaive depending on her mood and according to Khayon she has _"killed Legion warlords without shedding a single diamond of sweat,"_ and that's... awesome.

I found her to be one of the smartest characters in the book, her speech to Khayon about causes was one that I agreed with wholly and her relationship with Khayon appears very close, I actually felt that real affection was shared by these two. Nefertari, despite her comments to Khayon, does actually seem to care about her master and his well-being, as evidenced by the speech she gives him and how she acts around him when he's giving it. The closeness between them, which Khayon is very clear is platonic and not romantic, is surprising, an alien that feeds on suffering and a biological weapon with traces of human emotion are not two people you'd expect to form a bond that feels too strong for friends yet not quite strong enough for family.

The most curious thing about Nefertari though, aside from her relationship with Khayon, is her past. She claims to be an exile from Commorragh and that the Eye is the one place her kindred will not chase her. Since Vect does not yet exist that means the Noble Houses of Xelian, Kraillach and Yllithian are in charge of the Dark City, and the rule are much less stringent. So the question is, what the hell did she do to get booted out of Commorragh and be forced to run to the Eye for sanctuary??



Lheor:



Lheor is without a doubt the funniest character in the novel. He has a very straight-forward outlook on life; the past is gone and worrying about the future is pointless, so the present is what matters. I found his irritation with Khayon being mysterious to be really funny, but the best part was when he decked Khayon for telling him that gateing was just like teleportation, it really isn't. It takes balls of iridium or some other equally rare metal to punch a Sorcerer who can unmake people so fast their ghosts don't even realize they are dead. And like many of the others he is distinct from the rest of his former Legion, you don't see too many Khorne Berzerkers wielding Heavy Bolters do you.



The Warp:



A lot of the nature of the Warp is discussed in the book. Too much to talk about in this post, so i'll post a monologue by Khayon that I felt was very illuminating, and terrifying to think about;

_That is when life within the Great Eye ceased to feel like purgatory. The war-touched void became a haven, and it's power promised opportunity.
I have told you there is a malevolence in the warp, and this is true. But it is not the whole truth.
When you hear those of us among the "Armies of the Damned" speak of the Gods and their Neverborn children, you are hearing us lie to ourselves. Not for the joy of ignorance, but for the necessity of it. We perceive these things in this way for the solace of sanity.
Any psyker, be they soulbound to the Golden Throne or ascending amongst the officer ranks of the Adeptus Astartes, knows the simple truth: that a human soul is a light in the dark. A soul is a beacon in the layer that lies behind reality, and daemons are drawn to such soulfires by eternal, malicious hunger.
The soul of a psyker, the most valuable prize of all, burns a hundred times as bright.
Yes, all true. And no, all wrong.
Do you know what really lies beyond the veil? Can you conceive of what the warp really is?
Us.
It is us. The truth is that there is nothing in the galaxy but us. It is our emotions, our shadows, our hates and lusts and disgusts that lie in wait on the other side of reality. That's all. Every thought, every memory, every dream, every nightmare that any of us have ever had.
The Gods exist because we gave birth to then. They are our own vileness and fury and cruelty fiven form, imbued with divinity because we cannot conceive of anything so powerful without giving it a name. The Primordial Truth. The Pantheon of Chaos Undivided. The Ruinous Powers. The 'Dark Gods'... And, forgive me, I can barely speak that last name without forcing my scribe, the patient and diligent servitor, to record nothing but breathy laughter for several moments.
The warp is a mirror that swirls with the smoke of our burning souls. Without us there would be no refletion, no patterns to perceive, no shadow of our desires. when we look into the warp, it looks back. It looks back with our eyes, with the life we have given it.
The eldar believe they damned themselves. Perhaps, perhaps not. Whether they accelerated or heralded their demise is irrelevant; they were damned the moment the first ape-like human picked up a rock and used it to break open his brother's skull.
We are alone in this galaxy. Alone with the nightmares if all who have lived and hoped and raged and wept before us. Alone with our ancestors' nightmares.
So remember these words. The Gods do not hate us. They do not scream for the destruction of all we hold dear. They_ *are* _us. They are our sins coming home to the hearts that gave them life.
We are the Gods, and the hells we have made are our own._

....shudder.




As for the final few scenes... I will not be talking about them. The reason? They are too awesome to spoil, so anyone who wants to know about them will have to wait for the book. Trust me, it will be worth the wait when you get to those final 20 or so pages and see the biggest surprise in the entire book.


One thing I will talk about in full however is _The Wonderworker_, the story that won't be reprinted. First off, you are not missing anything if you haven't read this story. Yes it is set after the novel and it is set between Book I and Book II, but nothing essential or of real import happens in the story. It is essentially about Khayon collecting something and the Black Legion recruiting a new member.

The Wonderworker:



It does answer an unasked question, because we haven't seen it yet. What happened to Sanguinius's sword?? Answer: Abaddon took it. The sword was broken in his fight against Horus but Abaddon salvaged the pieces along with the Talon of Horus. And as a reward for their service in Book I Abaddon gives the shards to Khayon, Telemachon and Lheor to do with as they see fit. Telemachon forges a new death mask that according to Khayon he still has in the 41st millennium. Lheor makes new teeth for a chainaxe that according to Khayon he lost in a swamp a decade later. And Khayon uses his shard, along with some other potent ingredients, to have a Thousand Son weaponsmith make him a new weapon. Khayon gets a sword out of it. And the Black Legion gets a new member in the form of the weaponsmith whose work is famed across the entire Empire of the Eye.




LotN


----------



## Anakwanar

Omg - seems Aaron has done it again, thanks Lord





Lord of the Night said:


> So remember these words. The Gods do not hate us. They do not scream for the destruction of all we hold dear. They are us. They are our sins coming home to the hearts that gave them life.
> We are the Gods, and the hells we have made are our own


 

- that's just, ... shudder 
Seems this book would be # 1 on my read list 

Also, questions - 

Why Abbi is not shown in terminator armor and where is his topknot? 

Any hints on first Black Crusade and Sigismund appearance in the second follow up book? 

The Wonderworker: So nobody from the main heroes died in the book? Weaponsmith is not an Iron Warrior?


----------



## forkmaster

If any of you can show some of artwork, it would be awesome!  Also I think it was a good spoiler-free review Lord!


----------



## Lord of the Night

Anakwanar said:


> Also, questions -
> 
> 
> 
> Why is Abbi not shown in terminator armor, and where is his topknot?
> 
> Any hints on first Black Crusade and Sigismund appearance in the second follow up book?
> 
> The Wonderworker: So nobody from the main heroes died in the book? Weaponsmith is not an Iron Warrior?


Answers,




Because he hasn't yet become the Warmaster. He does don Terminator armor in the book, but he doesn't yet have the distinctive Cthonian tribal topknot favoured by the miners, that last info courtesy of Khayon.

On the former, yeah of course, it's no secret that Book II will deal with the First Crusade. As for the latter, maybe. Wait and see.

Lheor, Telemachon and Khayon all live, but that was obvious before going into the book since the short story Chosen of Chaos, which is set sometime in the future, shows all three of them alive. And no, the Wonderworker is a Thousand Son named Chariz Terenoch.




LotN


----------



## piemelke

cheers for the review and the spoilers,


----------



## Anakwanar

Thanks Lord 


So who is the enemy when - it is Slave wars vs the Emperor Children, they will fight vs Lucius?


----------



## Tyrannus

Absolutely love the book. Fantastic read and Khayon has usurped Talos as my favourite CSM. I just loved his melancholy, sentimentality and yearning for purpose. He's such a fantastic and complex character. Also a badass.



Lord of the Night said:


> The Warp:
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of the nature of the Warp is discussed in the book. Too much to talk about in this post, so i'll post a monologue by Khayon that I felt was very illuminating, and terrifying to think about;
> 
> _That is when life within the Great Eye ceased to feel like purgatory. The war-touched void became a haven, and it's power promised opportunity.
> I have told you there is a malevolence in the warp, and this is true. But it is not the whole truth.
> When you hear those of us among the "Armies of the Damned" speak of the Gods and their Neverborn children, you are hearing us lie to ourselves. Not for the joy of ignorance, but for the necessity of it. We perceive these things in this way for the solace of sanity.
> Any psyker, be they soulbound to the Golden Throne or ascending amongst the officer ranks of the Adeptus Astartes, knows the simple truth: that a human soul is a light in the dark. A soul is a beacon in the layer that lies behind reality, and daemons are drawn to such soulfires by eternal, malicious hunger.
> The soul of a psyker, the most valuable prize of all, burns a hundred times as bright.
> Yes, all true. And no, all wrong.
> Do you know what really lies beyond the veil? Can you conceive of what the warp really is?
> Us.
> It is us. The truth is that there is nothing in the galaxy but us. It is our emotions, our shadows, our hates and lusts and disgusts that lie in wait on the other side of reality. That's all. Every thought, every memory, every dream, every nightmare that any of us have ever had.
> The Gods exist because we gave birth to then. They are our own vileness and fury and cruelty fiven form, imbued with divinity because we cannot conceive of anything so powerful without giving it a name. The Primordial Truth. The Pantheon of Chaos Undivided. The Ruinous Powers. The 'Dark Gods'... And, forgive me, I can barely speak that last name without forcing my scribe, the patient and diligent servitor, to record nothing but breathy laughter for several moments.
> The warp is a mirror that swirls with the smoke of our burning souls. Without us there would be no refletion, no patterns to perceive, no shadow of our desires. when we look into the warp, it looks back. It looks back with our eyes, with the life we have given it.
> The eldar believe they damned themselves. Perhaps, perhaps not. Whether they accelerated or heralded their demise is irrelevant; they were damned the moment the first ape-like human picked up a rock and used it to break open his brother's skull.
> We are alone in this galaxy. Alone with the nightmares if all who have lived and hoped and raged and wept before us. Alone with our ancestors' nightmares.
> So remember these words. The Gods do not hate us. They do not scream for the destruction of all we hold dear. They_ *are* _us. They are our sins coming home to the hearts that gave them life.
> We are the Gods, and the hells we have made are our own._
> 
> ....shudder.


Loved it. It is exactly the same as my own thoughts on the nature of the warp. While of course the monologue of one character doesn't make it an undeniable fact, I like to think that ADB echoes my sentiments on the warp.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

I've just finished the book tonight. Very enjoyable and particularly captivating. Aaron's unique perspective of the setting shines through Khayon's retelling of the founding of the Black Legion.


----------



## MontytheMighty

About Abaddon's top-kot...



Doesn't he already have it when serving under Horus?


----------



## Lord of the Night

MontytheMighty said:


> About Abaddon's top-kot...
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't he already have it when serving under Horus?


Yeah but;




Personal grooming hasn't been something he's been concerned about during his pilgrimage through the Eye. His hair, black btw not red, is ratty and lank and just falls around his face the entire book.




LotN


----------



## MontytheMighty

Ah I see. I'm having a hard time picturing Abby rocking the Curze look but OK


----------



## Brother Lucian

Just recieved The Talon of Horus. Gorgeous book for sure!


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

MontytheMighty said:


> Ah I see. I'm having a hard time picturing Abby rocking the Curze look but OK


Sorry about the poor quality.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Not a fan. He looks daemonic when he's all about resisting their gifts/touch. And his armor is very plain looking


----------



## PlayingWithHammers

spoiler chat: 





One thing the novel mentions, but not followed up on is the Talons have the Emperors blood, Sanguineous' blood and Horus II blood on it. Seeing how even a single drop of blood on a Rogue Trader charter is the subject of an entire novel, I wonder what happened to it after the battle. 

Really enjoyed the novel, the characters are great and there's some great snippets of lore, especially the Legion Wars and their conclusion, and Abbadon meeting an old adversary in the First Black Crusade.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Malus Darkblade said:


> Not a fan. He looks daemonic when he's all about resisting their gifts/touch. *And his armor is very plain looking.*


That's the point, it's ramshackle and scavenged which represents his separation from the Legion Wars. As for Daemonic, the only thing about Abaddon that looks Daemonic is his golden eyes that drink in light, and he most assuredly didn't get that from a Daemon, quite the opposite in-fact.


LotN


----------



## Malus Darkblade

His face looks like it's melted and blending with his shoulders. 

This is before he formed the Black Legion? Then I understand the armor bit now.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> His face looks like it's melted and blending with his shoulders.
> 
> This is before he formed the Black Legion? Then I understand the armor bit now.


Yeah, it's before the Black Legion got together. That's his 'Pilgrim in Hell' look. Very minor spoilers:


When the Nine Legions retreated into the Eye and the Legion Wars began (a continuous series of inter-Legion conflicts for resources, equipment, slaves, power, etc) Abaddon abandoned the Sons of Horus and wondered the Eye alone as a 'Pilgrim' for many years. That picture represents him at that stage in his journey.


----------



## Sevatar

My copy arrived today. Number 0002 of 1500. I almost got the first First Edition. Arg.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Sevatar said:


> My copy arrived today. Number 0002 of 1500. I almost got the first First Edition. Arg.


Damn that's nice. ADB himself will have 0001/1500, at least I think the author would be given the first copy.


LotN


----------



## MontytheMighty

Could anyone provide a spoiler-heavy synopsis? Thanks

...and thanks CotE for the scan. I'm not too crazy about the design but I can tell that's some high quality art.


----------



## Davidhavoc

hey guys, I am so eager to know the detail of the war between traitor legions, but I can't get that book untill Nov.2014, so would you please grant me the gift of spoiler of Talon of Horus！


----------



## Lord of the Night

MontytheMighty said:


> Could anyone provide a spoiler-heavy synopsis? Thanks
> 
> ...and thanks CotE for the scan. I'm not too crazy about the design but I can tell that's some high quality art.


I can, I wold however highly recommend that if you plan on reading the book, wait and be surprised when you do. Some of the events in this book are absolute "HOLY SH*T!!" moments, and finding out about them before-hand ruins the surprise.




The book begins with Khayon in an Inquisitorial Fortress. He has been crucified, his eyes have been removed and he has been shackled by a null-collar to keep his powers inactive. He surrendered himself to them after arriving in front of the fortress and is telling the story of the Black Legion and Warmaster Abaddon to a servitor that he names Thoth.

The actual story starts with Khayon waking up aboard the Tlaloc, his Strike Cruiser, from a dream of the Burning of Prospero. He visits the core of his ship with two of his Rubrics, Mekhari and Djedhor, and talks with the Anamnesis, an advanced gestalt machine spirit whose body Khayon knows and calls Itzara. He also has a Dark Eldar named Nefertari who he calls his Bloodward. After he annoys the Anamnesis by calling it Itzara she tells him to go to his alien, but instead he visits the bridge and speaks with Ashur-Kai the White Seer, a fellow Thousand Son and Khayon's mentor in the Great Cruade. They arrive at their destination shortly afterwards, a muster point of Legion ships.

Here they meet Falkus Kibre on an abandoned battleship, now leader of the Durga kal Esmejhak warband, meaning The Ash that follows the Fire. Also there is Lheorvine "Firefist" Ukris, a World Eater and leader of the Fifteen Fangs, once the World Eaters 30th Heavy Support Company. Falkus tells them that the Sons of Horus final stronghold known as Monument has been destroyed by the Emperor's Children, who have taken the body of Warmaster Horus. He plans on attacking Canticle City, one of the largest bases of the EC's and undoubtedly where they have taken Horus, but before that needs to find Abaddon as he is convinced Abaddon is the only one who can save all of them. He claims he knows where the Vengeful Spirit is, thanks to a former Word Bearer named Sargon Eregesh who claims that the Vengeful Spirit is beyond the Radiant Worlds, a place in the Warp where Daemons cannot survive because it has been scorched by the Astronomicon's light. Khayon doesn't trust Sargon as he finds Sargon's mind has shut by something vastly powerful. Lheor doesn't want to get involved in that, while Khayon is unsure of what to commit to, but before anyone can decide the EC's arrive with a massive fleet. They demand the Sons of Horus be turned over, but offer Khayon and Lheor safe passage, both of whom tell the EC's to suck it (Not literally) and fight back. Khayon calls forth a Daemon called The Ragged Knight who annihilates thirty-fourty EC's before turning on Khayon who is forced to unmake him. He takes the only surviving EC on the ship, an old enemy named Telemachon Lyras, prisoner and opens a gate to take him, Lheor and Lheor's eight-strong squad back to the Tlaloc. They escape, watching Lheor's ship be destroyed and Falkus's ship exploding.

Needing time to decide on a course of action Khayon sets course for Gallium, a neutral zone in the Eye run by a former Mechanicus adept and a former Iron Warrior. Over the course of the journey he strikes up a friendship with Lheor and interrogates Telemachon; it is revealed that Telemachon and his company were supposed to support Khayon's during the Siege of the Imperial Palace, but instead they went reaving on the population and Khayon lost thirty-three men to the Blood Angels because of that. As punishment he rewires Telemachon's head psychically so that he can't feel pleasure about anything, forcing Telemachon to work for him in the hope of being restored one day. Upon arriving they find out that Falkus and the remainder of the Justaerin have survived, their ship didn't explode but rather the warp core, which teleported them to Gallium. However they have all been possessed, forcing Khayon to isolate them aboard his ship until they can either beat the Daemons in them or die trying. Khayon decides here to go for the Vengeful Spirit, either they will find Abaddon or he'll just steal the VS. They use a pathway through the Webway that Khayon knows about, having spent six years working for a Night Lord named Ru Dharleth to earn that knowledge, and arrive in the Radiant Worlds, where upon they are immediately attacked in a blind panic by a dying Greater Daemon even bigger than the Tlaloc. Khayon manages to get it off the ship and navigate them safely through the Fire Zone and into the Radiant Worlds. While venturing through they are visited by a being named Imperious, who is a warp-entity made of the God-Emperor's own will. He begs them to turn back as their future is a dark one for the Imperium, and in response Lheor shoots him. After Imperious fades the Tlaloc enters a dust cloud in which they find an abandoned world which Khayon, Telemachon and Lheor journey down to.

On the planet they find the Vengeful Spirit in a massive canyon, and Abaddon on board. He is a vastly different man from the Heresy and, despite Lheor's claim they are here to steal his ship, is quite cordial with them and takes them to his workshop which contains an incredible amount of wonders; one of which is the Talon of Horus still coated with Sanguinius's blood. They ask Abaddon why he left and he says he has no interest in watching the Traitor Legions kill each other, that Horus was a failure who would have sold humanity to the Chaos Gods just to sit on the Golden Throne for a minute, and that he has other plans. He talks about forming a new Legion, a Legion devoted to taking what the Legiones Astartes were robbed of, their right to rule mankind. Not for Chaos, not for their own aggrandisement, but because they are best suited to do it. A Legion of ideals, not blood. He says the Primarchs were failures and that the other Legions are failures too because they emulate their flawed fathers and see no wrong in it. He takes the three of them to see Sargon Eregesh, who survived the engagement in the beginning and has been working for Abaddon for some time, who then sends them into a memory coma allowing Abaddon to see their lives. We see here how Khayon got his axe, his Daemon-familiar Gyre and that the Rubric Mekhari was his friend since childhood. Abaddon tells each of them what they most need to hear and welcomes them to his new brotherhood. He tells them he needs something from each of them, and from Khayon it is the Anamnesis, who it is revealed is Itzara Khayon, Khayon's little sister. She was infected by the psychneuin as a teenager and since he couldn't help her, Khayon volunteered her for the Anamnesis Project for a chance to live on.

The four return to the Tlaloc where Abaddon meets the Rubric Marines, Lheor's World Eaters and Nefertari. He endears himself to the World Eaters, the Rubricae respond to him more so than anyone outside the Thousand Sons, and despite his distaste of her he is polite to Nefertari who says she likes him. Abaddon then meets with Falkus and his men who it is revealed are all possessed by the same Daemon, it has split itself into smaller fragments and possessed all twenty-five plus of the Justaerin, meaning it cannot take over them but rather links them like a hive mind. Khayon and Abaddon do not tell them they are possessed since it won't do any good. Outlining his plan to attack Canticle City and destroy Warmaster Horus before he can be cloned, Abaddon asks Khayon for his contribution, Itzara. She needs to be transferred to the Vengeful Spirit so that they can crew the ship with the reduced forces they have, but the risk exists that the VS's machine spirit will overwhelm and devour her. Seeing no other option Khayon agrees and starts his other part in the plan. He meditates for months on end, for the entire journey to Harmony, the world where Canticle City is located, and on waking up there the attack begins.

He finds that Itzara has not only survived but has become the Vengeful Spirit, she also calls herself Itzara now and has become much more personal rather than distant. Khayon begins the attack by sending the dead Tlaloc, the burden he has been mentally dragging behind the Vengeful Spirit for the last few months, flying into Canticle City which completely annihilates the entire city. The EC's begin running for it in their ships, evacuating who they can. Once the ship Pulchrutidinous, Fabius Bile's ship known by other EC's as The Fleshmarket, takes off the assembled forces teleport aboard after Khayon secretly boards it with Telemachon and activates a beacon. Once all aboard they fight their way to the lab and discover a house of horrors. All assumed that Bile would need decades to even begin cloning Primarchs, they were all wrong. Bile has multiple clones of each Primarch in genesis, most horribly mutated, but some eerily aware. One infant clone of Lorgar calls out to Khayon, recognizing him. Finding Bile, who doesn't put up a fight, Abaddon and the 112 Rubricae destroy the cloning lab and Horus's body. Bile simply responds "He won't like that." Then the group comes under attack, four Rubrics are killed instantly by a massive figure. It is Warmaster Horus, a perfect clone of him.

NewHorus attacks the group and kills all of Lheor's World Eaters, multiple Rubricae and Justaerin and manages to nearly kill Nefertari, Telemachon, Lheor and Gyre before nearly killing Khayon, before he can though Mekhari steps in revealing that he has somehow overcome the Rubric and restored his personality. Sadly he is killed by Horus, but manages to save Khayon and buy enough time for Abaddon, who then steps in and battles Horus, killing the clone when it's guard is down as it attempts to convince Abaddon to join it's cause, the old cause reborn. Abaddon refutes it and murders the clone with the Talon of Horus, ending the Age of the Primarchs forever.

The books ends with the newly formed group leaving, only Abaddon knowing what they will do next. In the framing story it is revealed that Khayon is on Terra and his purpose is to deliver a message to the Emperor. His fallen sons are coming home, and this time they will settle the fight once and for all. The Imperium will not survive Abaddon and the Crimson Path. Khayon also hints at things to come, the First Black Crusade and when Abaddon and Sigismund crossed blades, or when Khayon lead the Black Legion in besieging Commorragh in revenge for Nefertari's murder. He promises to tell the rest of the story to the Inquisitors listening to him, as they wait for Abaddon to reach Terra and for the final battle to begin.




LotN


----------



## MontytheMighty

Lord of the Night said:


> I can, I wold however highly recommend that if you plan on reading the book, wait and be surprised when you do. Some of the events in this book are absolute "HOLY SH*T!!" moments, and finding out about them before-hand ruins the surprise.
> LotN


LOL...this is torture


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

MontytheMighty said:


> LOL...this is torture


Try and resist it mate, the book is so much more enjoyable without knowing the spoilers!

The novel is littered with so many little titbits of lore and new perceptions of characters and events.


----------



## bobss

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Try and resist it mate, the book is so much more enjoyable without knowing the spoilers!
> 
> The novel is littered with so many little titbits of lore and new perceptions of characters and events.


Exactly. I read _Legion_ last year, after years of expectation, and while I certainly enjoyed it and was also able to appreciate its qualities, it didn't blow me back like it had with a significant portion of readers.

Why? Because I had been rolling with its major twists for years. :laugh:


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

MontytheMighty said:


> LOL...this is torture


I can't recommend avoiding spoilers enough, because it's not a book that 'spoilers' well. One of my favourite novels is Fool's Assassin by Robin Hobb. Spoilers of that would involve 2/3 of the spoilers reading: "And then two characters sat in a house and talked; one of them had a kid at one point."

That sounds boring as shit, but that book is beautifully written and incredibly nuanced. It's less about the events that take place, and more about the people there, and how they handle each other. 

Like how the least interesting thing about _The Walking Dead_ is, well, the walking dead. It's all about people in an insane situation, and what it does to them all. It's not a show that spoilers well.

Those aren't exact comparisons, but they have the same kind of doesn't-spoiler-well vibe.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

bobss said:


> Exactly. I read _Legion_ last year, after years of expectation, and while I certainly enjoyed it and was also able to appreciate its qualities, it didn't blow me back like it had with a significant portion of readers.
> 
> Why? Because I had been rolling with its major twists for years. :laugh:


This.

This is wisdom.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Interesting little side comment that Khayon makes regarding Lheor and Mackan. 



His eventual fate? Or just a gross injury? I'm leaning towards the former for now. Reminding him of when he first referred to Khayon as his brother as he is dying sounds like a pretty powerful scene. Though of course I could just be reading too much into it.


Not quite finished it yet, trying to read this one more slowly than I normally would race through a novel, really enjoying it more than any novel I've read in a long time. Testimony to ADB that I can resist speed reading the crap out of it to fully appreciate every moment of it. Well and truly up there as one of the best BL has released.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Angel of Blood said:


> Interesting little side comment that Khayon makes regarding Lheor and Mackan.
> 
> 
> 
> His eventual fate? Or just a gross injury? I'm leaning towards the former for now. Reminding him of when he first referred to Khayon as his brother as he is dying sounds like a pretty powerful scene. Though of course I could just be reading too much into it.


I had the same thought;




I noted that at one point Khayon thinks of Telemachon who is out there right now and wonders what he's doing, even as Khayon tells the story, but he doesn't wonder what Lheor is doing.

Shame really, without Lheor the series won't be as funny. _"Just say magic and stop trying to be mysterious!"_




LotN


----------



## MontytheMighty

A question about Lheor...


How badly is he afflicted by the nails? He's essentially a Devastator. How does he control his rage


----------



## Lord of the Night

MontytheMighty said:


> A question about Lheor...
> 
> 
> How badly is he afflicted by the nails? He's essentially a Devastator. How does he control his rage




He's not as badly afflicted as say Kharn or Kargos Bloodspitter, at least he doesn't seem as badly afflicted. Outside of battle he's pretty calm. When in battle though he just uses willpower to keep ahold of his gun, but he has a chainaxe in case he fails.



LotN


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

This, from B&C, by Lucian Eilam, is a better explanation of what I was trying to say:

_"The general release goes on pre-order on the 19th. It's not that long to wait.

I'm not really sure what people want to hear about anyway. The basic events of the novel aren't new - you can find them at the start of the timeline in Codex Black Legion, for example. It's like asking for spoilers for the Heresy: "Horus dies at the end".

Most of the stuff that's genuinely new at this stage of the story comes mostly in the form of little anecdotes and mentions of events yet to come. They're all very exciting, but spoilers for them would be literally as long as the text they're spoiling. It'd be like when film studios show all the best jokes and stunts in the trailer.

What's really great about the book is the way it's told, not the events it portrays. My favourite thing about it is the glimpse it offers of an Abaddon men would be willing to follow through hell for 10,000 years out of brotherhood and loyalty, not just fear, ambition or hatred of the Imperium. A leader and genuine hero, albeit one willing to commit any atrocity to achieve his goal. But that glimpse unfolds over multiple chapters, it's not something you can rewrite as a spoiler, except to say "it shows Abaddon as more than the angry dick he came across as in the Heresy novels".

It'll make sense when you read it. Patience is a virtue."_


----------



## Lord of the Night

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> _What's really great about the book is the way it's told, not the events it portrays._


This is one of the reasons I loved the book. The narrative doesn't feel like reading a book, it felt like I was actually in the room with Khayon, Thoth and Siroca, listening to him tell the story of Abaddon and the Black Legion.


LotN


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> ..."it shows Abaddon as more than the angry dick he came across as in the Heresy novels"...


I don't think any Heresy author who has included Abaddon in their novel(s) has done the character too much justice, which is a shame.

In the series he has never been likeable, and comes across as short-sighted, narrow-minded and not the great leader of men he was supposed to be during the Great Crusade.

Abaddon, in _Talon_, still has undercurrents of those violent and single-minded tendencies - there are a few times where his annoyance or rage flares up. But it is very much kept in check, because he knows exactly how to be a leader and a visionary. In my mind, that is exactly how he should be.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Yes, Abbadon sure have gotten a major redesign in his behavior. One could easilly believe its truly his charisma that is the true glue behind the Black Legion, instead of just having bullied them together.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Brother Lucian said:


> Yes, Abbadon sure have gotten a major redesign in his behavior. One could easilly believe its truly his charisma that is the true glue behind the Black Legion, instead of just having bullied them together.


I think his charisma and leadership is a significant element of it, but he has done his fair share of bullying and intimidation to get the Black Legion to where it is in M41.


----------



## MontytheMighty

I have to say those previous Abaddon portrayals aren't very well thought-out in my opinion. This guy is supposed to the greatest leader on the Traitor side (arguably even greater than the primarchs)...yet in the HH series, he's generally portrayed as an aggressive, almost simple-minded bull of a man, a stereotypical "angrymarine" if you will. Personally, I would've preferred his character to have a bit more...subtlety 

An in-universe explanation for his early hyper-aggressive style could be that his service under Horus allows him to concentrate on being a ferocious warrior. Once Horus squawks, Abaddon has reason to master the more subtle arts of leadership. Abaddon has always been hinted as an intelligent thinker when needed to be (it's just that most of the time he's smashing skulls in the thick of battle). With the death of Horus, his latent qualties are given room to flourish


----------



## Malus Darkblade

MontytheMighty said:


> An in-universe explanation for his early hyper-aggressive style could be-


Bad writing.



MontytheMighty said:


> (arguably even greater than the primarchs.)


Horus was ambition incarnate. I can't picture Abaddon eclipsing him in that regard.


----------



## ckcrawford

Love the book and interactions of the traitor marines. Clearly a new standard for other future novels. I must say, what I liked a lot about the novel is that corruption is viewed as actual corruption instead of plain evil villains running around the eye. Even Khayon for example... couldn't help but speculate and look at how he says certain things. I do trust a majority of his POV, but some parts are like.... hmmmmm...

Damnet this book is good! Thanks ADB! My favorite book of the year for sure.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And comes across as short-sighted and narrow-minded.


Well in my opinion one of the reasons he comes across as narrow-minded then is because he was narrow-minded then. A lot of the lore on Crusade-era Abaddon notes that he was a xenophobe even by Imperial standards. As for short-sighted, I agree with Monty on that, Abaddon never had to think long-term because he wasn't a politician, he was a soldier. And the Imperium didn't really encourage long-term thought in the Astates did they, otherwise resentment over the fact they were conquering the galaxy for ungrateful bureaucrats would have sunk in earlier. Thinking long-term was Horus's job as Warmaster, Abaddon's was to wage war and follow orders.



MontytheMighty said:


> An in-universe explanation for his early hyper-aggressive style could be that his service under Horus allows him to concentrate on being a ferocious warrior. Once Horus squawks, Abaddon has reason to master the more subtle arts of leadership. Abaddon has always been hinted as an intelligent thinker when needed to be (it's just that most of the time he's smashing skulls in the thick of battle). With the death of Horus, his latent qualties are given room to flourish


Agreed. I think that Abaddon didn't have to think about such things back then because he had Horus to do them for him. Horus was both an inspiration for Abaddon to do better and yet he was also the guy who did all the really important stuff so that Abaddon didn't have to, meaning Abaddon never had to better himself as a person and leader of men to be good at that stuff. Why does Crusade-era Abaddon need to be a politician, a true leader of men, a charismatic demagoguge that can sway people to his opinions and cause; Horus was all of that (though it's debateable) and First Captain Abaddon had no reason to ever become any of that. Warmaster Abaddon on the other hand needs to be all of those things and so he finally had a reason to transcend being a simple soldier and become a politician, a thinker, a scientist, an innovator and a visionary, and all the other things that he felt like in those scenes.


That said... (Warning: This thought relies on HEAVY spoilers for Talon of Horus.)



Maybe the reason Abaddon seems so different in Talon of Horus is more sinister. Maybe at the end scene New!Horus wasn't the only clone in the room. Khayon did say that apart from the weapons they were indistinguishable from each other, he also notes that Abaddon seems larger than before but he puts it down to warp influence. Could be, maybe...




LotN


----------



## bobss

MontytheMighty said:


> I have to say those previous Abaddon portrayals aren't very well thought-out in my opinion. This guy is supposed to the greatest leader on the Traitor side (arguably even greater than the primarchs)...yet in the HH series, he's generally portrayed as an aggressive, almost simple-minded bull of a man, a stereotypical "angrymarine" if you will. Personally, I would've preferred his character to have a bit more...subtlety


This is a problem across the HH, and perhaps all of BL _and_ a good chunk of military writing to boot. Actively showing to the reader, not simply telling them, about X character's tactical and strategic prowess is surely difficult, especially in a fictional setting that uses an amalgamation of historical and invented styles of war. It's by no means impossible if one is familiar with their stuff, from Alcibiades, Alexander, Pyrrhus and Hannibal to Frederick, Napoleon, Bismarck and Rommel, but crafting these demonstrations of shrewdness is certainly something beyond most of the community. I enjoyed Abnett's portrayal of Guilliman in _Know No Fear,_ but I can't remember off the top of my head a single shining moment of logistical genius given to us right there, in the flesh.

Add into this mix Horus, who's naturally going to get dibs over Abaddon in whatever sweeping victory the SOH achieve, and the further challenge of trying to separate Horus' own personal breed of military genius from that of his brother primarchs such as Guilliman and Corax, and... yeah. I've read some top notch military fiction in the past, and getting all of the above, along with the usual critical properties of a novel, into one book is nothing short of Herculean.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Finished it. Deliberately read it slower than any novel I've read before, just to try and really fully absorb every detail of it. And wow, what a truly spectacular novel, I literally don't have a single criticism about it that I can think of right now. 

Few points



Just how good does that confrontation with Sigismund sound?! The way he describes Abaddon as actually bowing before Sigismund sincerely and deeply respectful, genuinely saying that is a real honour to have been hunter by him. I don't want to see Sigismund die, but if his death is even half as good as that small snippet, then it will be a glorious death indeed. 


The Wondermaker


So Khayon has a sword made from amongst many, many other things: A shard of the sword of Sanguinius, a piece of Worldbreaker, the weapon of Horus Lupercal, the physic death resonance of the Lord of Angels himself from the _Vengeful Spirit_, the ashes of an avatar of the Emperor, and so much more. Got to be well up there as one of the most powerful weapons in the 40k universe that we know of.


Gyre


Was the Prosperine Lynx Gyre? Certainly seems that way, though it seemed to be very reluctant to confirm it.


Nefertari


So she survived the events of the book, but from the sounds of it will finally be hunted down and murdered by her brethren.


Mekhari


LotN, I wouldn't go so far as to say he overcame his Rubric and regained his personality, not fully or likely not even permanently, but nevertheless regained more of it in the last fleeting moments of his life than any other before him. But I again, wouldn't go that far.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lord of the Night said:


> Well in my opinion one of the reasons he comes across as narrow-minded then is because he was narrow-minded then. A lot of the lore on Crusade-era Abaddon notes that he was a xenophobe even by Imperial standards.


As far as we are aware he was still very much a xenophobe post-Heresy. Note how he reacts in Nefertari's presence. 



Lord of the Night said:


> Why does Crusade-era Abaddon need to be a politician, a true leader of men, a charismatic demagoguge that can sway people to his opinions and cause; Horus was all of that (though it's debateable) and First Captain Abaddon had no reason to ever become any of that.


I don't think that's a reasonable explanation. We have numerous examples of Crusade-era Space Marines who were charismatic leaders: Loken, Argel Tal, Torgaddon, Aximand, Sevatar, Garro, even Khârn to some extent and pretty much all of the Ultramarine Captains from _Know No Fear_ to name but a few. Most of these characters could have relied on their Primarch's leadership and charisma, but they didn't. They were generals and leaders themselves after all, as was Abaddon. But his portrayals in the series haven't shown us any real leadership qualities that he should have had as First Captain. 



Angel of Blood said:


> Gyre
> 
> 
> Was the Prosperine Lynx Gyre? Certainly seems that way, though it seemed to be very reluctant to confirm it.


I assumed so. 



Angel of Blood said:


> Mekhari
> 
> 
> LotN, I wouldn't go so far as to say he overcame his Rubric and regained his personality, not fully or likely not even permanently, but nevertheless regained more of it in the last fleeting moments of his life than any other before him. But I again, wouldn't go that far.


I agree.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Angel of Blood said:


> Just how good does that confrontation with Sigismund sound?! The way he describes Abaddon as actually bowing before Sigismund sincerely and deeply respectful, genuinely saying that is a real honour to have been hunter by him. I don't want to see Sigismund die, but if his death is even half as good as that small snippet, then it will be a glorious death indeed.


Indeed. Said confrontation could, and likely will, be one of the most epic battles in all 40k.



Angel of Blood said:


> Gyre
> 
> 
> Was the Prosperine Lynx Gyre? Certainly seems that way, though it seemed to be very reluctant to confirm it.


I am not sure.




It could be Gyre. But before the battle begins Khayon mentions the the battle extracted _"A price I was not willing to pay."_ I think that the Lynx could be the creature that was Gyre, but the Gyre we know might not be there anymore.





Angel of Blood said:


> Nefertari
> 
> 
> So she survived the events of the book, but from the sounds of it will finally be hunted down and murdered by her brethren.


An event I am _not_ looking forward to. I really like Nefertari.



Angel of Blood said:


> Mekhari
> 
> 
> LotN, I wouldn't go so far as to say he overcame his Rubric and regained his personality, not fully or likely not even permanently, but nevertheless regained more of it in the last fleeting moments of his life than any other before him. But I again, wouldn't go that far.


Perhaps,




I think that scene was something that ultimately is up to the reader, same as Decimus's parentage. Whether or not Mekhari overcame the Rubric fully or only somewhat is up to the reader to determine, especially since he died right after which makes it ultimately irrelevent. I like the idea that his best friend's life in mortal danger gave him the kick he needed to restore who he was and save Khayon.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> As far as we are aware he was still very much a xenophobe post-Heresy. Note how he reacts in Nefertari's presence.


I did. He didn't blow her head off and then lambast Khayon for working with an alien, which automatically shows that Abaddon has grown from the days when he argued with Horus over letting the Interex live. Back then Abaddon despised aliens but it was an unthinking hatred, he was told to hate them and so he did, but I got the sense that it wasn't anything specific that he hated, just the idea of beings that weren't human would set him off. Yet here, despite an initial twinge of disdain, he converses politely with Nefertari and even endears himself to her a bit. I got the feeling that Abaddon has gone from hating aliens to just considering them inferior and viewing them with disdain, he has better things to focus his hatred on then beings that are, in his mind, simply born inferior. Things like the Emperor that sold them out to humanity, like Horus that had every advantage and became a slave to the Dark Gods, or the Dark Gods who wish to enslave humanity while Abaddon wants to rule them.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I don't think that's a reasonable explanation. We have numerous examples of Crusade-era Space Marines who were charismatic leaders: Loken, Argel Tal, Torgaddon, Aximand, Sevatar, Garro, even Khârn to some extent and pretty much all of the Ultramarine Captains from _Know No Fear_ to name but a few. Most of these characters could have relied on their Primarch's leadership and charisma, but they didn't. They were generals and leaders themselves after all, as was Abaddon. But his portrayals in the series haven't shown us any real leadership qualities that he should have had as First Captain.


I think that Abaddon's leadership qualities were his leading from the front, no matter what. Abaddon to me wasn't the type to inspire loyalty by speeches or by camaraderie, but by standing next to you in the trenches, bleeding and killing with you. Those leaders you've quoted built good relationships with each other, whereas Abaddon's actions were what endeared him to others and got him the die-hard loyalty of men like Falkus Kibre and Kalus Ekaddon. And in my opinion the series shows that a lot, Abaddon is on the front-line with the Justaerin in practically every battle involving them, he leads by example rather than words.


LotN


----------



## Valrak

This may be a silly question but will this book have an audio version? I've stated before on these forums that I have dyslexia.


----------



## Sevatar

^

Not currently. There may be one when the general release happens (conjecture on my part).

I just finished it. It's amazing from start to finish, no weak parts. Khayon is probably the best (C)SM character I've read about so far. My only gripe is that there is no artwork of Gyre and Nefertari. Can't wait for more adventures of this merry band.



Is it mentioned how Abbadon gets around during his pilgrimage days? He must be using the webway, right?


Also, "We've come to steal your ship".


----------



## ckcrawford

MontytheMighty said:


> I have to say those previous Abaddon portrayals aren't very well thought-out in my opinion. This guy is supposed to the greatest leader on the Traitor side (arguably even greater than the primarchs)...yet in the HH series, he's generally portrayed as an aggressive, almost simple-minded bull of a man, a stereotypical "angrymarine" if you will. Personally, I would've preferred his character to have a bit more...subtlety
> 
> An in-universe explanation for his early hyper-aggressive style could be that his service under Horus allows him to concentrate on being a ferocious warrior. Once Horus squawks, Abaddon has reason to master the more subtle arts of leadership. Abaddon has always been hinted as an intelligent thinker when needed to be (it's just that most of the time he's smashing skulls in the thick of battle). With the death of Horus, his latent qualties are given room to flourish






Malus Darkblade said:


> Bad writing.Horus was ambition incarnate. I can't picture Abaddon eclipsing him in that regard.



I would agree with LotN with the point that the answer seems to be more sinister. In fact I go beyond saying he might be a clone. His personality was like... whoa.... too different from what I remembered. In fact I got as far as saying their are similarities to it that ring of the past.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Abby have long been rumored to being the clone-son of Horus in the fluff.


When he faces Horus Reborn, theres practically -no- difference between them, save the armor. And Khayon muses that perhaps Horus 2 wasnt the only clone present.


I speculate that the old belicose and choleric Abbadon simply did not survive the Horus Heresy. Horus thusly had a clone created from himself as a template to insure a less emotionally unstable heir. Perhaps making him as a failsafe prior to confronting the Emperor, to make sure there was a proper backup for legion leadership incase he got trashed by his father.


----------



## ckcrawford

Brother Lucian said:


> Abby have long been rumored to being the clone-son of Horus in the fluff.
> 
> 
> When he faces Horus Reborn, theres practically -no- difference between them, save the armor. And Khayon muses that perhaps Horus 2 wasnt the only clone present.
> 
> 
> I speculate that the old belicose and choleric Abbadon simply did not survive the Horus Heresy. Horus thusly had a clone created from himself as a template to insure a less emotionally unstable heir. Perhaps making him as a failsafe prior to confronting the Emperor, to make sure there was a proper backup for legion leadership incase he got trashed by his father.


It does make sense. After all, the great Warmaster we heard of disappeared after one novel. The path to Terra was essentially carved by a retard. There are many that have changed their perspective of who and what the Warmaster was during the Great Crusade. I am still one of few who believe him the most charismatic and strategic warrior of mankind.


----------



## forkmaster

As a response to Abaddons portrayals in others book, I would say its a very damned good appearence in _Soul Hunter_ which shows how intelligent he is. And I would say the rumors about him being a clone is only that. Getting the gene-seed might have changed his appearance, but I don't think he's a actual clone and the real Abaddon died during the pilgrimage. Why he has changed would be because of him wandering about to get a new depth.

Can't express enough how much I want this book!


----------



## Anakwanar

Great book - the second one with Sigi should be fantastic


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Based on what I've read so far of The Talon of Horus, I've come to a realization.

A major aspect of why ADB and Abnett are so far above their colleagues. 

In ADB's foreword to ToH, he says he wanted to redefine how Chaos is viewed by us, the readers. 

Top of my head, and I think he intentionally does this to separate his work from what we've come to know and expect of the Warp, 

in ToH -tearing holes into reality/unreality to serve as portals, there are no explosions of violence or light or screams from Daemons, just utter blackness and deathly quiet.


He makes other author's description of Chaos, daemons, etc. sound so fucking elementary and childish it's actually depressing.

Bottles and sign-posts coming to life vs what you see in ToH. It's like night and day. 



It's thrilling seeing ADB taking what McNeil came up with in his A Thousand Sons, the whole each Sorcerer has his own _familiar_, and expanding on it and stressing the importance of sorcerers and their ritual bonds on their daemons.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Malus Darkblade said:


> A major aspect of why ADB and Abnett are so far above their colleagues.


I would say Wraight's skill with the pen is not inferior


----------



## Valrak

My friend read me the part about Sigismund, all I could think was this image:


----------



## ckcrawford

really? lol its classic. miss that movie


----------



## MontytheMighty

King Conan and an old Sigismund...quite a good comparison really. 

Sigismund is an old alpha lion, maybe a bit slower and weaker because of age but perhaps his wisdom and experience more than make up for that. I doubt Aaron's going to give us a decrepit Sigismund


----------



## ckcrawford

MontytheMighty said:


> King Conan and an old Sigismund...quite a good comparison really.
> 
> Sigismund is an old alpha lion, maybe a bit slower and weaker because of age but perhaps his wisdom and experience more than make up for that. I doubt Aaron's going to give us a decrepit Sigismund


I can't wait for a fight between those two (Abaddon and Sigismund). Thats got to be epic!


----------



## Brobaddon

Glad to hear that the book is epic. Would order it from BL if the damn site would actually let me. Also those two legionaries everyone's talking about are new characters or from before? I don't recall their names.


----------



## ckcrawford

LordOftheNight said:


> Glad to hear that the book is epic. Would order it from BL if the damn site would actually let me. Also those two legionaries everyone's talking about are new characters or from before? I don't recall their names.


Khayon? Not sure if I remember his name before. I did a little research on him on Lexicanum, and there was very little information. It seemed like he was a revival of older fluff, because his whole story line was introduced from the ending of Prospero.


----------



## sadLor

Just finished the ebook, with the epilogue in this book and the recent release of End Times: Return of Nagash, does anyone else see BL possibly...*gasp* moving the 40k story along? (Black Legion crusade to Terra, the Lion waking up, etc.)

I would have NEVER thought about it but End Times: Return of Nagash is doing the same thing to Warhammer Fantasy with major characters dying and entire empires disappearing...even the WHF equivalent of the Lion returning.

Just baseless speculation, but it would be neat if they had a similar end times series after the HH and Black Legion series end. I know that probably won't be for many years but just random musings.

I'm not even going to go into details about how great the book was. It's ADB quality...that should be enough.


----------



## ckcrawford

Not sure about the Lion Waking up. I feel they could probably make a good death story, but I'd like to see more heroics from him before that happens.


----------



## Garviel loken.

Mcniell did hint last black library live that guilliman could return


----------



## ckcrawford

Garviel loken. said:


> Mcniell did hint last black library live that guilliman could return


I'm waiting for him to bounce back to be honest. I've been really disappointed after _A Thousand Sons._


----------



## Garviel loken.

ckcrawford said:


> I'm waiting for him to bounce back to be honest. I've been really disappointed after _A Thousand Sons._


I didn't mind vengeful spirit, but that was because I liked the loken bits, the ret of the book was meh. I did like a thousand sons, especially the end.i just don't like his over descriptiveness


----------



## MontytheMighty

Garviel loken. said:


> Mcniell did hint last black library live that guilliman could return


Details please!

_Angel Exterminatus_ introduces the Heart of Iron, a device capable of healing someone in stasis

I mean...I don't think BL has the balls to bring back Guilliman, but I wouldn't mind it if they finally move 40K forward. Yes, I know it's a setting not a progressing story...but the lack of plot development is getting stale


----------



## Brother Lucian

All the antismurfers would surely have an apoplectic fit of rage if Guiliman returned. But I think it has been comming for a long time, with the hints of his wounds healing inside the unchanging flow of time in stasis. Whos not to say that he was interred with the Heart of Iron to return in a distant future?

Edit: We already know he had dealings with the Iron Hands post-heresy


From Rebirth, we know he gifted the Skull of Ferrus Manus to the Iron Hands to get their oath to follow the Codex Astartes. Doesnt sound entirely far fetched that the IH wanted to return the favor and gave the Ultramarines the Heart of Iron to aid RG in his time of need.


----------



## dark angel

MontytheMighty said:


> Details please!


Pretty sure it wasn't serious, honestly. It was from his and Nick Kyme's Ultramarine seminar. All credit goes to Shaggy, over on the Bolthole.



> Q: something about the possible resurrection of Guilliman & the effects of such (sorry, didn't hea the question properly)
> A: NK - Guilliman would "have views" about the chapter's hidebound devotion to the Codex Astartes
> GMc - Guilliman would be horrified by the state of everything - the chapter, the entire Imperium - but would dive straight in to fix it. GMc doesn't expect this to ever be seen in print. If it did happen... can see the Ultramarines rebuilding, regaining Legion status and then a second Great Crusade- Imperium Tertius?


And; 



> Q: If you were ever going to bring any of the (loyalist) primarchs back, would you wait until BL had finished the whole of the HH project?
> A: NK - probably not.
> GMc - joke... the next Ultramarines trilogy is about Guilliman's return


----------



## sadLor

MontytheMighty said:


> Details please!
> 
> _Angel Exterminatus_ introduces the Heart of Iron, a device capable of healing someone in stasis
> 
> I mean...*I don't think BL has the balls to bring back Guilliman*, but I wouldn't mind it if they finally move 40K forward. Yes, I know it's a setting not a progressing story...but the lack of plot development is getting stale


I would've agreed with the statement in bold before reading End Times: Return of Nagash. That book blew my mind in terms of what BL was willing to do to their major characters and settings.


----------



## Garviel loken.

I really hope guilliman does return. 40k reading is getting a tad stale. The lack of plot movement is getting boring, and I get that the timeline is basically mankind a last stand, but returning guilliman would push it so much further.It's the reason I mostly read HH. ,


----------



## Brobaddon

ckcrawford said:


> Khayon? Not sure if I remember his name before. I did a little research on him on Lexicanum, and there was very little information. It seemed like he was a revival of older fluff, because his whole story line was introduced from the ending of Prospero.


Mhm, that guy. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iskandar_Khayon#.VCLTrKh_tJw this is pretty much everything I found on him ( thought i didnt really try that much )... s

Sounds like a promising character. Can't wait to read this book, been a fan of Black Legion and Abbadon since forever.

As for Guiliman, just how much would that impact the 40k story and balance of powers? A primarch returning as a leader of imperium armies could really shift everything as we know.... 

Albeit some proggress wouldn't hurt.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Until the Return of Nagash hit whfb noone would have thought it remotely possible.

The Imperium might become truly frightening if the Logistics King takes charge, able to effective handle the endless assetts of humanity.


----------



## Brobaddon

Ey true challenge for the Despoiler! Would be interesting to see how Abbies' black crusades would go then


----------



## MontytheMighty

At the end of the book in which Guilliman returns, his advisors and officers all leave the room. He then mutters under his breath "I am Alpharius"


----------



## Angel of Blood

MontytheMighty said:


> At the end of the book in which Guilliman returns, his advisors and officers all leave the room. He then mutters under his breath "I am Alpharius"


This.


----------



## Brobaddon

Guiliman can't return because he would demolish Abbadon's black crusades, and it's so fun reading about them <.< 

Unless GW actually decides for a black crusade to actually push deeper towards Terra instead of just gaining a foothold....


----------



## Angel of Blood

Brobaddon said:


> Guiliman can't return because he would demolish Abbadon's black crusades, and it's so fun reading about them <.<
> 
> Unless GW actually decides for a black crusade to actually push deeper towards Terra instead of just gaining a foothold....


Going to have to disagree with you massively on that one.


----------



## Brobaddon

Well, as much as i love abby, having a primarch against him and tactically briliant one on top of that + creed and all the others... yeah, not that good. 

Either way, it would be interesting.


----------



## Angel of Blood

That's Abby with 6 traitor Deamon Prince Primarchs.


----------



## ckcrawford

Brobaddon said:


> Mhm, that guy. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iskandar_Khayon#.VCLTrKh_tJw this is pretty much everything I found on him ( thought i didnt really try that much )... s
> 
> Sounds like a promising character. Can't wait to read this book, been a fan of Black Legion and Abbadon since forever.
> 
> As for Guiliman, just how much would that impact the 40k story and balance of powers? A primarch returning as a leader of imperium armies could really shift everything as we know....
> 
> Albeit some proggress wouldn't hurt.


Sounds about right. In the Limited Edition series at least, ADB does say he went through extensive research in current and past fluff. It does show pretty good.


----------



## forkmaster

Yeah I can't wait until Lexicanum updates on Khayon so we have more info about other than a shprt paragraph from The Death Company information-slate.


----------



## ckcrawford

I wonder if Khayon is meant to die off. Kind of like Talos being an important player but having to die out for the more important characters to carry out their destiny. It seems that Khayon was initially part of the first few Black Crusades. Obviously he narrates in a certain circumstance in which we know he won't be with the Black Legion forever. So maybe that is the case.


----------



## sadLor

ckcrawford said:


> I wonder if Khayon is meant to die off. Kind of like Talos being an important player but having to die out for the more important characters to carry out their destiny. It seems that Khayon was initially part of the first few Black Crusades. Obviously he narrates in a certain circumstance in which we know he won't be with the Black Legion forever. So maybe that is the case.





The epilogue in the first book is a massive preview of the stories to come and it appears Khayon is apart of all of them... from all the traitor primarchs bowing before Abaddon (Magnus being brought to his knees and Mortarion coming close to killing all of them) to finding Sigismund to acquiring the daemon blade to the juiciest preview, Black Legion's invasion of Commorragh in punishment for taking Nefertari.

We also find out Khayon's confession takes place in 999.M41, and he was _asked_ by his brother Abaddon (implying he's still BL and loyal) to turn himself in to confess. It is the End Times and the coming of the Crimson Path (13th Black Crusade) and he's telling them this story because it will change nothing for them.

Random info - There is a lot of talk about the Emperor weakening, the Astronomican fading. Khayon is bringing a message for Abaddon to the Emperor before the Emperor finally dies.


----------



## Vitarus

Only a few chapters in. So far, it's kinda awesome.


----------



## Twizted86

So I may have missed it going through the thread but is there a good picture of Lheor Firefist anywhere?


----------



## Angel of Blood




----------



## MontytheMighty

I sincerely hope ADB tackles the Mackan conflict in his Black Legion series, preferably from the perspectives of the BA and the BL


----------



## Lord of the Night

MontytheMighty said:


> I sincerely hope ADB tackles the Mackan conflict in his Black Legion series, preferably from the perspectives of the BA and the BL


Indeed. I really want to see the scene when Jorus and his Death Company butcher Abaddon's elite guard and Jorus himself gives the Warmaster one of the closest fights of his 10,000 year existence. A part of me actually wants to see this more than Abaddon vs Sigismund, because Jorus is not massively famous or well-known, he was just a badass Blood Angels Chaplain who went head-to-head with Abaddon the Despoiler and though he lost, he made damn sure that Abaddon and the Black Legion would never forget him or his men.


LotN


----------



## Angel of Blood

Indeed, though what I'm not looking forward to in the battle is,



What I suspect will be the demise of Lheor.


----------



## piemelke

I finished the book yesterday
I found it to be a very good book, not ADB his best, but very good indeed with powerfull and interesting characters besides some interesting takes on the warp (except the space ship trowing reminded me of austin powers), the book left me with a few questions though
1. the entities in the warp seem to be entangled with (mainly) human emotion, the warps is us..., however we mainly see negative manifestations, where are all the positive emotions ? I understand that khorne also stands for courage and broterhood, the clean kill and all and Nurgle has a certain 'fatherly' feel to it, still, where are the positive emotions (in ToH there was one positive example).
2. a projection on the 40K setting, this would mean the warp would never let nids and necrons slay mankind as it would mean the end of human emotions, also the gods cannot afford to be not interested in humands ?
3. Horus versus abaddon + marines, I would say the horus clone is only a meat clone without his strong aura in the warp, as betrayer learned that marines are genetically bred to be in awe in the presence of a primarch , this cleary not being the case. Plus Abaddon seems to be physically the equal to a primarch making it very strange to believe a BA chaplain wounds him.

As a last remark, and this is not a criticism on ADB his behalf (quite the contrary), ADB created a large amount of powerfull and charismatic characters on the chaos side, there is no balance with equally powerfull/interesting/ (not just martial power) characters on the loyalist side (Chris did a good effort with Njall) the Abaddon versus sigismund fight is epic (I still do not like to see Sigismund being beaten by Abaddon, not because I like sigismund more, but because both sides of the fence need powerfull characters) (I guess we know how that ends knowing abaddon can physically take on a primarch) but BL needs some more interesting characters on the loyalist side to make the end times sort of interesting,


----------



## Lord of the Night

piemelke said:


> 1. The entities in the warp seem to be entangled with (mainly) human emotion, the warp is us... however we mainly see negative manifestations, where are all the positive emotions? I understand that Khorne also stands for courage and brotherhood, the clean kill and all, and Nurgle has a certain 'fatherly' feel to it, still, where are the positive emotions (in ToH there was one positive example).


I would surmise that the creatures born of negative emotions would eat the ones born of positive emotions, if there are any to begin with. Rage, Lust, Fear of Death and Ambition are much stronger feelings than say Love, Happiness, Compassion and Humility. Creatures born of the latter and only able to experience the latter would find it very hard to function, whereas the former find it much easier.



piemelke said:


> 2. A projection on the 40K setting, this would mean the warp would never let nids and necrons slay mankind as it would mean the end of human emotions, also the gods cannot afford to be not interested in humans?


Likely not. I am reminded of what Nagash says in the first of Mike Lee's trilogy, something along the lines of "The Gods should take their goats and be grateful, they need us far more than we need them." The same thought applies here, the Chaos Gods are our darker emotions given form, and if their connection to us is as strong as Khayon believes it to be; then I think that yes, they need us to continue existing. Without humanity, Chaos would wither into nothing.



piemelke said:


> 3. Horus versus Abaddon + marines, I would say the Horus clone is only a meat clone without his strong aura in the warp, as Betrayer learned that marines are genetically bred to be in awe in the presence of a primarch, this cleary not being the case. Plus Abaddon seems to be physically the equal to a primarch making it very strange to believe a BA chaplain wounds him.


I think he was the real deal, the awe was absent because they were being assaulted by him and in my opinion because the entire group had internalized their distaste for the Primarchs and that was enough to overcome the trans-human awe that the Primarchs invoke in all who see them. As for Abaddon and Jorus, we'll have to wait and see, but I agree that Abaddon here was terrifying, but I think that if Jorus did manage to wound Abaddon so badly that he still has the scars by 999.M41, then he must have been a Badass among Badasses. (I mean, he did manage to wage a guerilla warfare campaign using the psychotic Death Company and kept them all sane while doing it, on his own.)


LotN


----------



## piemelke

cheers for the answer LOTN,


Lord of the Night said:


> I would surmise that the creatures born of negative emotions would eat the ones born of positive emotions, if there are any to begin with. Rage, Lust, Fear of Death and Ambition are much stronger feelings than say Love, Happiness, Compassion and Humility. Creatures born of the latter and only able to experience the latter would find it very hard to function, whereas the former find it much easier.
> LotN


in all honesty I find this a rather wild speculation,at the risk of sounding cheesy, but I am not convinced the "positive" emotions are weak and defenseless (do you have kids ?). 




Lord of the Night said:


> I think he was the real deal, the awe was absent because they were being assaulted by him and in my opinion because the entire group had internalized their distaste for the Primarchs and that was enough to overcome the trans-human awe that the Primarchs invoke in all who see them. As for Abaddon and Jorus, we'll have to wait and see, but I agree that Abaddon here was terrifying, but I think that if Jorus did manage to wound Abaddon so badly that he still has the scars by 999.M41, then he must have been a Badass among Badasses. (I mean, he did manage to wage a guerilla warfare campaign using the psychotic Death Company and kept them all sane while doing it, on his own.)
> LotN


also here I am not convinced, i can imagine that fabius can flesh-craft a primarch, but also restoring his link with the warp (which all primarchs seem to have), seems a bit stretched, the emperor annihilated him, also his warp signature ? The clone merely being a flesh clone, I could understand, him being the real deal does not sit well with me. That would make Abaddon insanely powerfull (he still has to receive boons from the gods and primarchs at this point), just taking horus his hammer in flight and breaking it with the Talon, Sigismund and any other "marine" for that matter, do not stand a chance (no Heisenberg, not a chance) against him and as Horus was considered one of the most powerfull, if not the most powerfull primarch, this only adds up. 
anyhow I really enjoyed the book, (although the word weaving has been used on almost every page , I think ADB is following a knitting course)


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lord of the Night said:


> I am reminded of what Nagash says in the first of Mike Lee's trilogy, something along the lines of "The Gods should take their goats and be grateful, they need us far more than we need them." The same thought applies here, the Chaos Gods are our darker emotions given form


The Chaos Gods also represent our hopes and dreams, as well as our fears and nightmares. Personally, I dislike the notion of positive and negative emotions - I don't think that makes sense. How can an emotion be negative? 



Lord of the Night said:


> they need us to continue existing. Without humanity, Chaos would wither into nothing.


As _Codex: Daemons_ tells us: Chaos would be "much diminished" without Mankind, but not eradicated. The gods feed off of all mortals, not just humanity.


----------



## piemelke

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Chaos Gods also represent our hopes and dreams, as well as our fears and nightmares. Personally, I dislike the notion of positive and negative emotions - I don't think that makes sense. How can an emotion be negative?


fair point, I guess the argument is that we mainly read about negative emotions in a biblic sense (again, in ToH there was one neverborn manifestation who had a more altruistic take on life ). 
In all the books I read never came I across (except for some references towards nurgle) a neverborn/demon/warp thing who seemed to be born from emotions such joy...
e.g. the khorne demon was born after a lot of people got killed by crusaders I think, e.g. mothers seeing their children killed. I would expect a similar reaction when those mothers see their children for the first time after having given birth, these aspects I never read.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> As _Codex: Daemons_ tells us: Chaos would be "much diminished" without Mankind, but not eradicated. The gods feed off of all mortals, not just humanity.


Well it says the eldar were screwed the moment the first man killed, I felt a very stong bias towards human emotions, not solely humans, but if Khayon says the gods are us, I feel this implies mainly human ?
If the nids/necrons kill all humans that would mean over 90 % of living things in the 40K galaxy ?


----------



## sadLor

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Chaos Gods also represent our hopes and dreams, as well as our fears and nightmares. Personally, I dislike the notion of positive and negative emotions - I don't think that makes sense. How can an emotion be negative?


In psychology, there are definitions for positive and negative emotions... but that's one of the most simple classification systems. I only studied it briefly but just check out the wiki on emotion classification for some of the complex (some overly) systems.

And LotN's statement that negative emotions are stronger than positive emotions has some truth to it in neurology. See Negativity Bias.

Having said all that... As a sci-fi/fantasy fan, it would have been neat to read about daemons based on emotions like joy and wonder. Other emotions like guilt and shame would make for interesting daemons as well.


----------



## ckcrawford

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Chaos Gods also represent our hopes and dreams, as well as our fears and nightmares. Personally, I dislike the notion of positive and negative emotions - I don't think that makes sense. How can an emotion be negative?


I'm sure there would be a way if emotion could be shown to make a soul feel or be less than it is capable of. I'm sure they could play around with that concept. 





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> As _Codex: Daemons_ tells us: Chaos would be "much diminished" without Mankind, but not eradicated. The gods feed off of all mortals, not just humanity.


I've kind of backed away from trusting the Chaos codex. Undivided has little to no bearing except a medium for the four major Gods. This dismissive part of fluff has me scratching my head. Because if the above is really true, and humanity were wiped out, then how would Chaos stand? As still 4 great Gods?


----------



## Count_the_Seven

Re Abaddon's boons - there are many references to his golden eyes and a glow behind them. I think he already has been rewarded...

CtS


----------



## Lord of the Night

piemelke said:


> In all honesty I find this a rather wild speculation, at the risk of sounding cheesy, but I am not convinced the "positive" emotions are weak and defenseless (do you have kids?).


No. Not interested in having any either. But I would say that in the context of Daemons, the positive emotions would be weaker. A creature born of compassion or joy for example would be incapable of defending itself as it's the darker emotions that are necessary for that, violence, rage, hate. A creature made of compassion couldn't hurt another living being, but a creature born of hate can do that and will. So in my mind, likely there are Warp beings being born from positive emotions, they just don't last very long in the tumultuous Warp that has been overtaken by hostile emotion-forms. Some older lore actually supports this theory;



The War in Heaven said:


> Unfortunately, the raw emotions and collective unconscious beliefs of these new races altered the psychically-active Immaterium, creating their Gods and the daemons of Chaos. The introduction of these warlike and psychic races into the galaxy had the side effect of warping the Immaterium - the war, pain, suffering and destruction of the galaxy unleashed during the conflict was reflected in the Immaterium, literally changing its nature into that of the current chaotic and intrinsically hostile psychic dimension called the Warp. The innocuous entities which had naturally existed in the Immaterium were twisted into voracious and hostile predators.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Chaos Gods also represent our hopes and dreams, as well as our fears and nightmares. Personally, I dislike the notion of positive and negative emotions - I don't think that makes sense. How can an emotion be negative?


When the creature it creates in the Warp wants to kill us and steal our souls, would be my answer. And yes they do represent our hopes and dreams, but in a twisted sense. Nurgle is the desire for long life and Tzeentch is hope and Slaanesh is our desire, but all three are twisted to such a degree that they become nightmares instead. The Chaos Gods are the darkest side of our emotions, our hopes and our dreams.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> As _Codex: Daemons_ tells us: Chaos would be "much diminished" without Mankind, but not eradicated. The gods feed off of all mortals, not just humanity.


But what does "much diminished" mean?? I personally think that if humanity were to die, Chaos as it exists now would die with it. Perhaps the potential for it to rise again should another warp-connected race like the Eldar or Humanity emerge, but the current Chaos Gods that are born of our racial psyche would wither into non-existence. Perhaps Slaanesh would survive, but Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch were born from us, and I think they would die with us. And if they died then the state of Chaos would fail and Slaanesh would cease to exist, as no one God can exist on it's own.


LotN


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

piemelke said:


> In all the books I read never came I across (except for some references towards nurgle) a neverborn/demon/warp thing who seemed to be born from emotions such joy...
> e.g. the khorne demon was born after a lot of people got killed by crusaders I think, e.g. mothers seeing their children killed. I would expect a similar reaction when those mothers see their children for the first time after having given birth, these aspects I never read.


It can be argued (quite convincingly in my opinion) that emotions such as joy come under the remit of Slaanesh. 



piemelke said:


> Well it says the eldar were screwed the moment the first man killed, I felt a very stong bias towards human emotions, not solely humans, but if Khayon says the gods are us, I feel this implies mainly human ?


The gods are us. As they _are_ every mortal race. We know for a fact that they are not just representative of humans. That isn't to say Khayon was wrong (even though he may not be the most reliable author) though. 



piemelke said:


> If the nids/necrons kill all humans that would mean over 90 % of living things in the 40K galaxy ?


Far from it. If all of humanity slipped into extinction, that would be no more than 1% of the mortal population of the galaxy. Probably less than 1%. 



sadLor said:


> In psychology, there are definitions for positive and negative emotions... but that's one of the most simple classification systems. I only studied it briefly but just check out the wiki on emotion classification for some of the complex (some overly) systems.
> 
> And LotN's statement that negative emotions are stronger than positive emotions has some truth to it in neurology. See Negativity Bias.


I've never studied psychology so I may be talking shit here... :laugh:

But I can understand how emotions can generally produce 'positive' and 'negative' results from a human perspective - in the sense of living in a harmonious society. But objectively, I don't understand how an emotion, in and of itself, can be good or bad. 



Lord of the Night said:


> When the creature it creates in the Warp wants to kill us and steal our souls, would be my answer. And yes they do represent our hopes and dreams, but in a twisted sense. Nurgle is the desire for long life and Tzeentch is hope and Slaanesh is our desire, but all three are twisted to such a degree that they become nightmares instead. The Chaos Gods are the darkest side of our emotions, our hopes and our dreams.


Or are our hopes & dreams realised in pure form, our Id. 



ckcrawford said:


> I've kind of backed away from trusting the Chaos codex. Undivided has little to no bearing except a medium for the four major Gods. This dismissive part of fluff has me scratching my head. Because if the above is really true, and humanity were wiped out, then how would Chaos stand? As still 4 great Gods?





Lord of the Night said:


> But what does "much diminished" mean?? I personally think that if humanity were to die, Chaos as it exists now would die with it. Perhaps the potential for it to rise again should another warp-connected race like the Eldar or Humanity emerge, but the current Chaos Gods that are born of our racial psyche would wither into non-existence. Perhaps Slaanesh would survive, but Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch were born from us, and I think they would die with us. And if they died then the state of Chaos would fail and Slaanesh would cease to exist, as no one God can exist on it's own.


"Much diminished" doesn't mean eradicated, we know that for sure. The gods also represent the emotions of other mortal races, not just humanity - your quote about the War in Heaven confirms that (humanity obviously wasn't around then). There is still some inconsistency in the lore concerning when and why the gods gained consciousness - most of the older lore implies they were more a result of humanity's rise, whilst the newer lore tends to cite the devastation of the War in Heaven (60 million years ago) as the primary factor. 

The vast majority of mortal races in the galaxy are "warp-connected" and thus affect and contribute to Chaos. Humanity or the Eldar are certainly not unique in that regard. Humanity obviously contributes the most to Chaos as it stands, simply because of their numbers and power, but there will always be psychic species in the galaxy to sustain Chaos.


----------



## ckcrawford

I wouldn't say Chaos dies with it. But I believe that the Chaos Gods would not be the great four for sure. In fact, I made a thread a while ago because I was wondering how the four actually work, and how they work compare to undivided. Here's link, the questions and concepts I used were kind of hard to really have a good discussion about I think. But if you are interested. *A Closer/Skeptial Look at the Chaos "Gods"*

But back to discussion, the idea of "much diminished," really makes one dwell. Can Chaos Gods break apart, separate? Get devoured by a simpler Chaos God?

PS I didn't make it red, for some reason when I bold it becomes red.


----------



## 40kBookReviews

ckcrawford said:


> I wouldn't say Chaos dies with it. But I believe that the Chaos Gods would not be the great four for sure. In fact, I made a thread a while ago because I was wondering how the four actually work, and how they work compare to undivided. Here's link, the questions and concepts I used were kind of hard to really have a good discussion about I think. But if you are interested. *A Closer/Skeptial Look at the Chaos "Gods"*
> 
> But back to discussion, the idea of "much diminished," really makes one dwell. Can Chaos Gods break apart, separate? Get devoured by a simpler Chaos God?
> 
> PS I didn't make it red, for some reason when I bold it becomes red.


I would imagine that if new gods can be created, such as the birth of Slaanesh, then it seems likely that gods can also be destroyed.
After all, the Chaos "gods" are not truly gods in the sense that they are omnipotent beings, rather they are simply entities of such vast and comprehensible power that "god" is the most apt description for them.

The current Chaos pantheon is, IMO, merely a result of a long power struggle that has reached a stalemate, but one that could potentially be broken if the balance of power could swing far enough to any one side.


----------



## forkmaster

Just look at this thread! See how much discussions thats blossomed up which I haven't seen since like pre-Hardbacks was introduced to BL. Just wanted to pint that that out.


----------



## Lord of the Night

forkmaster said:


> Just look at this thread! See how much discussions thats blossomed up which I haven't seen since like pre-Hardbacks was introduced to BL. Just wanted to pint that that out.


That's because it's an awesome book, and it's virgin territory for BL. Everything in this series is either brand new or it's something that we've only ever read the Imperial version of.


LotN


----------



## bobss

Loved it. No surprises here. Certainly worth the wait. I've already warmed to the new cast, and thoroughly approve of Abaddon's portrayal. Once again, the sheer volume of potential this series has blows me away.

On a more constructive note, as wonderful as early-gen Black Templars duking it out with the newly emergent Black Legion sounds, isn't there _a lot_ of material to cover in-between? Saaay, the Black Legion carving out their own piece of the Eye, clashing with Sons of Horus remnants (wonderfully unusual and plausible concept, btw), the events with Mortarion and Magnus that've been teased... etc.

Is Cadiabowl confirmed for book two? icknose:


----------



## Lord of the Night

bobss said:


> Is Cadiabowl confirmed for book two? icknose:


Indeed. Book Two of the Black Legion series, titled The Black Legion, will cover the 1st Black Crusade and the epic duel between Abaddon and Sigismund.


LotN


----------



## Reaper45

I really like the direction ADB is going so far. Instead of making chaos a diehard evil thing like the imperium believes it's just that chaos.


----------



## forkmaster

Lord of the Night said:


> Indeed. Book Two of the Black Legion series, titled The Black Legion, will cover the 1st Black Crusade and the epic duel between Abaddon and Sigismund.
> 
> 
> LotN


It's also in that book when they will start discussing the colour of their Legion apparently.


----------



## forkmaster

Hey you who have read the book, can anybody tell me if there is some close descriptions on the Dark Eldar-girl? Because I want to make a model to represent her and I'm slightly unsure how she looks like.


----------



## Reaper45

forkmaster said:


> Hey you who have read the book, can anybody tell me if there is some close descriptions on the Dark Eldar-girl? Because I want to make a model to represent her and I'm slightly unsure how she looks like.


From the description I think she's a scourge.


----------



## Lord of the Night

forkmaster said:


> Hey you who have read the book, can anybody tell me if there is some close descriptions on the Dark Eldar-girl? Because I want to make a model to represent her and I'm slightly unsure how she looks like.


Nefertari is a Scourge yes, though some further parts of her appearance are elaborated on. She doesn't wear a helmet and has long black hair, the pale skin common to Dark Eldar, and she wears boots unlike many Scourges. She also carries a Hydra Gauntlet and an Agoniser Whip.


LotN


----------



## Reaper45

Finished the book a few minutes ago. All I can say is that if this is going to be ADB's gaunts ghosts it's going to be awesome.


----------



## forkmaster

Reaper45 said:


> From the description I think she's a scourge.





Lord of the Night said:


> Nefertari is a Scourge yes, though some further parts of her appearance are elaborated on. She doesn't wear a helmet and has long black hair, the pale skin common to Dark Eldar, and she wears boots unlike many Scourges. She also carries a Hydra Gauntlet and an Agoniser Whip.


Thanks for the replies!


----------



## mal310

Did anybody else notice that there was no summary of the Seventeenth Legion's status in the eye? 

Loved the book. Awesome work by ABD again.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

mal310 said:


> Did anybody else notice that there was no summary of the Seventeenth Legion's status in the eye?


Should there have been?


----------



## forkmaster

mal310 said:


> Did anybody else notice that there was no summary of the Seventeenth Legion's status in the eye?
> 
> Loved the book. Awesome work by ABD again.


What do you mean by that?


----------



## mal310

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Should there have been?





forkmaster said:


> What do you mean by that?


Abaddon gave a summery of eight of the traitor legions in the eye, mentioning that no one wanted to deal with the fourteenth because of the state of them through Nurgle etc. I just though it was strange that all were mentioned except for one.


----------



## Vitarus

Wow.

This is as good as it gets. With all the lame aspects of the whole 40K mythos; with all the different writers, with different degrees of talent; with all the discrepancies and contradictions between the views of these writers - most 40K books don't rate with the world of literature outside of 40K. They're good or bad compared with each other, but not with the broader world of scifi/fantasy.

And then there's The Talon of Horus. Not merely a great 40K book. Not merely, dare I say, the best 40K book. But an amazing book. 

Those who know me would have guessed I'd love it just for the psyker stuff. (Although none of you know me, and those who know me don't know what a psyker is. So nobody would've guessed. lol) ADB's uses of the Art are as varied and inventive as French's in Ahriman: Exile. I didn't know there would be any emphasis on psykers, and hadn't heard of Khayon, until a couple weeks ago. What a joy for me! The subtlety of things like Nefertari! The power of things like the Spear! I also love Khayon's explanations for how this and that aspect of the Eye and warp work. And that's just Khayon! There's also stuff like Sargon and the demon that has the Justaerin. 

All incredible.

Psyker stuff aside, it's excellent! The feeling of scope and depth is remarkable. The size of the Eye and the amount of time it takes to travel around. The size of the Vengeful spirit. The amount of time Abaddon's been wandering, and the patience it took. The span of time Khayon talks about to his present-day captors.

Speaking of Khayon's present-day captors, the perspective the story is told from - his present day and situation, alternating with the beginning of the Black Legion - is seamlessly done.

Abaddon himself is better than I'd hoped. I read the first few Horus Heresy books before I knew much about the Horus Heresy or 40K. I was honestly surprised and heartbroken when Abaddon and Aximand went bad. I thought they'd turn back before it was too late. That was my only exposure to Abaddon until now. And here he is, this amazing personality and leader. Wise and patient. And trying to do what he things is, and what just might be, the right thing. Or at least trying to walk the best path he can find.

Where's The Clown? Well done, sir. Well done.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

@Vitarus: I agree with you, one of the best aspects of the book was AD-B/Khayon's take on the warp, gods and the Eye. Absolutely enthralling. 



mal310 said:


> Abaddon gave a summery of eight of the traitor legions in the eye, mentioning that no one wanted to deal with the fourteenth because of the state of them through Nurgle etc. I just though it was strange that all were mentioned except for one.


Ah I see. I had forgotten about that.


----------



## theurge33

I just finished it as. Totally awesome, well written book. I think I have finally turned to Chaos! As much as I thought it wasn't going to happen, I find myself loving Abaddon whom I do not really care for in HH. It would neat to see if ADB making any connections to his voice being scarred by the emporers angel(?) in VS or when big E saved his life in Wolf of Ash and Fire. I did not notice any changes in his voice.


----------



## forkmaster

Vitarus said:


> Wow.
> 
> This is as good as it gets. With all the lame aspects of the whole 40K mythos; with all the different writers, with different degrees of talent; with all the discrepancies and contradictions between the views of these writers - most 40K books don't rate with the world of literature outside of 40K. They're good or bad compared with each other, but not with the broader world of scifi/fantasy.
> 
> And then there's The Talon of Horus. Not merely a great 40K book. Not merely, dare I say, the best 40K book. But an amazing book.
> 
> Those who know me would have guessed I'd love it just for the psyker stuff. (Although none of you know me, and those who know me don't know what a psyker is. So nobody would've guessed. lol) ADB's uses of the Art are as varied and inventive as French's in Ahriman: Exile. I didn't know there would be any emphasis on psykers, and hadn't heard of Khayon, until a couple weeks ago. What a joy for me! The subtlety of things like Nefertari! The power of things like the Spear! I also love Khayon's explanations for how this and that aspect of the Eye and warp work. And that's just Khayon! There's also stuff like Sargon and the demon that has the Justaerin.
> 
> All incredible.
> 
> Psyker stuff aside, it's excellent! The feeling of scope and depth is remarkable. The size of the Eye and the amount of time it takes to travel around. The size of the Vengeful spirit. The amount of time Abaddon's been wandering, and the patience it took. The span of time Khayon talks about to his present-day captors.
> 
> Speaking of Khayon's present-day captors, the perspective the story is told from - his present day and situation, alternating with the beginning of the Black Legion - is seamlessly done.
> 
> Abaddon himself is better than I'd hoped. I read the first few Horus Heresy books before I knew much about the Horus Heresy or 40K. I was honestly surprised and heartbroken when Abaddon and Aximand went bad. I thought they'd turn back before it was too late. That was my only exposure to Abaddon until now. And here he is, this amazing personality and leader. Wise and patient. And trying to do what he things is, and what just might be, the right thing. Or at least trying to walk the best path he can find.
> 
> Where's The Clown? Well done, sir. Well done.


Abaddon has a brilliant cameo in ADB first NL-book called _Soul Hunter_. Recommend you read those books as well.


----------



## Vitarus

I will. I have the first and third books. I haven't read them because I didn't now enough about anything to be able to follow any of it the first time I tried it. But I've read many 40K, and at least a few ADB, books, so they might be next on my list.


----------



## forkmaster

Vitarus said:


> I will. I have the first and third books. I haven't read them because I didn't now enough about anything to be able to follow any of it the first time I tried it. But I've read many 40K, and at least a few ADB, books, so they might be next on my list.


They make really great connections to the Heresy and "present"-day and portay how the 8th Legion is and what it stands for. Yeah do so.


----------



## Worldkiller

Is anyone who has the first edition and has read the Wonderworker short story in it willing to divulge spoilers for those of us who didn't manage to get that edition?


----------



## Skinny87

I created an account just to as- I'm wondering if anyone can even confirm the existence of the anthology that came with the Platinum ticket? There were supposed to be only ten ever printed or something similar. Rather surprised one hasn't made to eBay, but I can't even see if they existed outside of the BL ticket website.


----------



## forkmaster

Worldkiller said:


> Is anyone who has the first edition and has read the Wonderworker short story in it willing to divulge spoilers for those of us who didn't manage to get that edition?


Got the quote here:



Lord of the Night said:


> One thing I will talk about in full however is _The Wonderworker_, the story that won't be reprinted. First off, you are not missing anything if you haven't read this story. Yes it is set after the novel and it is set between Book I and Book II, but nothing essential or of real import happens in the story. It is essentially about Khayon collecting something and the Black Legion recruiting a new member.
> 
> The Wonderworker:
> 
> 
> 
> It does answer an unasked question, because we haven't seen it yet. What happened to Sanguinius's sword?? Answer: Abaddon took it. The sword was broken in his fight against Horus but Abaddon salvaged the pieces along with the Talon of Horus. And as a reward for their service in Book I Abaddon gives the shards to Khayon, Telemachon and Lheor to do with as they see fit. Telemachon forges a new death mask that according to Khayon he still has in the 41st millennium. Lheor makes new teeth for a chainaxe that according to Khayon he lost in a swamp a decade later. And Khayon uses his shard, along with some other potent ingredients, to have a Thousand Son weaponsmith make him a new weapon. Khayon gets a sword out of it. And the Black Legion gets a new member in the form of the weaponsmith whose work is famed across the entire Empire of the Eye.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LotN


----------



## forkmaster

Hey you who have read the novel, do we get any close description about the Fenrisian wolf-tutelary/daemon-thingy? Like I'm thinking about modelling one, and is wondering if its like a blue-isch ghost-like appearence?


----------



## Lord of the Night

forkmaster said:


> Hey you who have read the novel, do we get any close description about the Fenrisian wolf-tutelary/daemon-thingy? Like I'm thinking about modelling one, and is wondering if its like a blue-isch ghost-like appearence?


Gyre just looks like a Fenrisian Wolf with pure white eyes, her otherworldliness comes from the fact that she moves like she's made of liquid and not in any way like a real wolf.


LotN


----------



## forkmaster

Lord of the Night said:


> Gyre just looks like a Fenrisian Wolf with pure white eyes, her otherworldliness comes from the fact that she moves like she's made of liquid and not in any way like a real wolf.
> 
> 
> LotN


Ahh thank you very much!


----------



## Anakwanar

They will all die eventually - ah *Dead.Blue. Clown* - you are such a teaser bringer :grin:


----------



## forkmaster

When is this book out as a regular pocket version? Anybody got a date or a month?


----------



## forkmaster

I got a question for ADB. How many of the Luna Wolves are still alive? I understand they are more or less extinct, but are there any pockets of survivors left?


----------



## Kalamoj

Sorry for the late bump, I just finished the book (I received a FP from a good friend last Chritmas).

First of all it is one of the best fantasy books I've ever read, well done Aaaron.
Although it left a tiny bit sour taste after I finished it.
I really enjoyed the parts where the characters talking about events happened during the Heresy.
The characters are generally very good - 'Firefist' is the best - except Abaddon.


The jerk we knew from the HH books suddenly became a very charismatic leader, who looted the half of the Eye alone. I think Abaddon should be something like the one Aaron created, but it's still resonates badly with the existing lore.

I also got a bit confused with the reasoning behind the Black Legion's foundation (considering the events following the book).


The characters are hate the Primarchs, because they've failed them and they're not sharing their mission anymore. So what this new 'Legion' supposed to do then? Hitting the good ol' Emprah. So nothing new, just change in management.

The epilogue was the most disturbing one. So there is no point to read 40K anymore, because Abaddon will just kill everyone?

Feel free to illuminate me, if you think I misunderstood these things.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Kalamoj said:


> Sorry for the late bump, I just finished the book (I received a FP from a good friend last Chritmas).
> 
> First of all it is one of the best fantasy books I've ever read, well done Aaaron.
> Although it left a tiny bit sour taste after I finished it.
> I really enjoyed the parts where the characters talking about events happened during the Heresy.
> The characters are generally very good - 'Firefist' is the best - except Abaddon.
> 
> 
> The jerk we knew from the HH books suddenly became a very charismatic leader, who looted the half of the Eye alone. I think Abaddon should be something like the one Aaron created, but it's still resonates badly with the existing lore.
> 
> I also got a bit confused with the reasoning behind the Black Legion's foundation (considering the events following the book).
> 
> 
> The characters are hate the Primarchs, because they've failed them and they're not sharing their mission anymore. So what this new 'Legion' supposed to do then? Hitting the good ol' Emprah. So nothing new, just change in management.
> 
> The epilogue was the most disturbing one. So there is no point to read 40K anymore, because Abaddon will just kill everyone?
> 
> Feel free to illuminate me, if you think I misunderstood these things.



My speculation on the Abbadon matter...


If you remember, old fluff have stated that Abbadon might be the cloneson of Horus. And when Abbadon fights Horus 2.0, Khayon describes them as being virtually no difference between them. I speculate that the original belicose Abbadon perished during the Siege of Terra and Horus had Abbadon 2.0 created as a failsafe with himself as the template, incase he should fail in his bid to unseat the Emperor. So if he failed, a returned 'Abbadon' some time later would be seen as a miracle by the leaderless traitor forces needing to be given a focus once again. Which begets the question. Whom cloned Abbadon 2.0? Fabius Bile certainly didnt, given his own pet project with recreating Horus.


----------



## Kalamoj

Brother Lucian said:


> My speculation on the Abbadon matter...
> 
> 
> If you remember, old fluff have stated that Abbadon might be the cloneson of Horus. And when Abbadon fights Horus 2.0, Khayon describes them as being virtually no difference between them. I speculate that the original belicose Abbadon perished during the Siege of Terra and Horus had Abbadon 2.0 created as a failsafe with himself as the template, incase he should fail in his bid to unseat the Emperor. So if he failed, a returned 'Abbadon' some time later would be seen as a miracle by the leaderless traitor forces needing to be given a focus once again. Which begets the question. Whom cloned Abbadon 2.0? Fabius Bile certainly didnt, given his own pet project with recreating Horus.


Wow, that'd fly.


And the whereabouts of this clone during the siege would also need some explanation. I guess others probably noticed if two Warmasters giving orders. Someone had to sail the VS to the Eye - that was Abaddon (Horaddon) according to the lore.


----------



## Nordicus

I just finished the first book in the series a few days ago - Dear Aaron or @Dead.Blue.Clown, whichever you prefer, if you're reading this, a serious thank you goes your way. This was one of the most enjoyable books I've read (non-40k or 40k for that matter) in a long time.

The characters were interesting, the plot was fascinating and I simply couldn't put down the book. As a Chaos player, I also relished the description of Abaddon before he became what he is today; His ambition, his drive and the way other people looked at him. It's good to finally see this arch-character getting some justice in the written realm. 

Thank you - I can't wait for the next books in the series. You did freakkin' great man.

_(Where do I sponsor coffee for them to get written faster?)_


----------



## Vaz

Brother Lucian said:


> My speculation on the Abbadon matter...
> 
> 
> If you remember, old fluff have stated that Abbadon might be the cloneson of Horus. And when Abbadon fights Horus 2.0, Khayon describes them as being virtually no difference between them. I speculate that the original belicose Abbadon perished during the Siege of Terra and Horus had Abbadon 2.0 created as a failsafe with himself as the template, incase he should fail in his bid to unseat the Emperor. So if he failed, a returned 'Abbadon' some time later would be seen as a miracle by the leaderless traitor forces needing to be given a focus once again. Which begets the question. Whom cloned Abbadon 2.0? Fabius Bile certainly didnt, given his own pet project with recreating Horus.


Sounds like horseshit McNeil would pull.

ADB is better than that.


----------



## jasonpittman

Vaz said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Brother Lucian
> My speculation on the Abbadon matter...
> 
> Sounds like horseshit McNeil would pull.
> 
> ADB is better than that.


Really I thought that sounded like an excellent twist.


----------



## mal310

jasonpittman said:


> Really I thought that sounded like an excellent twist.


I agree with Vaz. Sounds dreadful.


----------



## Phoebus

I, too, am with Vaz on this.



Horus's megalomania would not have allowed him to consider defeat, much less view a clone achieving his victory for him as a viable option. And then we have to buy off on the idea that cloning a primarch - a feat that took Fabius Bile incredible amounts of time and resources to achieve - was something done on the fly, within a handful of months?


----------



## Doom wolf

Phoebus said:


> I, too, am with Vaz on this.
> 
> 
> 
> Horus's megalomania would not have allowed him to consider defeat, much less view a clone achieving his victory for him as a viable option. And then we have to buy off on the idea that cloning a primarch - a feat that took Fabius Bile incredible amounts of time and resources to achieve - was something done on the fly, within a handful of months?


I definitely agre with you, here.


----------



## Mob

They shouldn't have bothered bringing in the clone crap to the main storyline and de-mythologising it in the first place. Who was it came up with Fabius having a load of Ferrus Manus clones in his fridge freezer? Kyme? Silly plot.


----------



## forkmaster

That people still believe this. No Abaddon is the by-product of many authors handling the same character and not everyone gave him a good nor proper charactization. He is protrayed as stiff, angry, hot-headed and in some cases even stupid in the early HH-novels. He got a proper face-lift in _Soul Hunter_, and then again in this novel. No it's not a clone, it's ADB trying to justify the character by making him interesting. The change could be explained from his travelling for, the Gods know how long, inside the Eye where he grew wise.


----------



## Captain_Loken

Anyone have a link for the next one?


----------



## MontytheMighty

The Abaddon character is really a case of too many cooks stirring the pot 

ADB just happens to be the best cook out of those who've stirred

Abaddon was originally written as a stereotypical Angry Marine


----------



## Captain_Loken

Everything I am reading about this while trying to find the second novel, says it is a single novel called Abandon: Talon of Horus, and there won't be a series. 

If anyone knows any different and has a link to a legit page with dates on releases, please share them with me.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Captain_Loken said:


> Everything I am reading about this while trying to find the second novel, says it is a single novel called Abandon: Talon of Horus, and there won't be a series.
> 
> If anyone knows any different and has a link to a legit page with dates on releases, please share them with me.


I don't have the sources to hand, but ADB has stated on numerous occasions that this is the start of a large series. He says as much in the foreword of the First Edition of the novel as well. He has said that this will be his Gaunts Ghosts, or that others have told him that it will be. Next novel, tentatively titled _Black Legion_, will be out next, hopefully next year some time. 

Trust us, it is going to be a series.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Captain_Loken said:


> Everything I am reading about this while trying to find the second novel, says it is a single novel called Abandon: Talon of Horus, and there won't be a series.
> 
> If anyone knows any different and has a link to a legit page with dates on releases, please share them with me.


In the first edition of the novel, his opening sentence in the foreword is:

"Right now, I'm wrapping up _The Talon of Horus_ and looking ahead to Book II."


----------



## Captain_Loken

Angel of Blood said:


> I don't have the sources to hand, but ADB has stated on numerous occasions that this is the start of a large series. He says as much in the foreword of the First Edition of the novel as well. He has said that this will be his Gaunts Ghosts, or that others have told him that it will be. Next novel, tentatively titled _Black Legion_, will be out next, hopefully next year some time.
> 
> Trust us, it is going to be a series.


its not that I don't trust you, I was just looking for a date. Hah


----------



## Captain_Loken

Angel of Blood said:


> In the first edition of the novel, his opening sentence in the foreword is:
> 
> "Right now, I'm wrapping up _The Talon of Horus_ and looking ahead to Book II."


To be honest, I don't take the word of the author until I hear from Black Library. The author may have planned a book two, but that doesn't mean BL picked it up. 

Lets hope they do. However, that could explain why I haven't found any info on it from any other source than ADB.


----------



## Matcap

Captain_Loken said:


> Everything I am reading about this while trying to find the second novel, says it is a single novel called Abandon: Talon of Horus, and there won't be a series.
> 
> If anyone knows any different and has a link to a legit page with dates on releases, please share them with me.


From the BL website: http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/the-talon-of-horus-ebook.html

"READ IT BECAUSE...
*This is the first novel in a brand new series* that deals with the ultimate bad guy of the 41st millennium, written by the master of Warhammer 40,000 anti-heroes Aaron Dembski-Bowden. The Talon of Horus* is the beginning of the most anticipated new Black Library series of 2014* and a must read for any fan of Warhammer 40,000 or the Horus Heresy."

Emphasis mine


----------



## Brother Lucian

Considering that the mass influx of orders for The Talon of Horus first edition crashed the BL website when it was opened for purchase, it would be quite crazy if they did not take on his following books in the series. It sold like hotcakes.

The Black Legion is the next in the series, should be featuring Abbadon forming it with his new lieutenants.


----------



## Captain_Loken

But no hard date yet? Probably told early. Thanks for the link, Matcap.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Brother Lucian said:


> The Black Legion is the next in the series, should be featuring Abbadon forming it with his new lieutenants.


And the newly born Legion going to war with Sigismund and his Black Templars. :victory:


LotN


----------



## MontytheMighty

Brother Lucian said:


> Considering that the mass influx of orders for The Talon of Horus first edition crashed the BL website when it was opened for purchase, it would be quite crazy if they did not take on his following books in the series.


Yes...it would be stupid not to release a second book...but BL hasn't exactly been very smart lately


----------



## Angel of Blood

MontytheMighty said:


> Yes...it would be stupid not to release a second book...but BL hasn't exactly been very smart lately


They aren't dumb enough not to release it. How much they charge for it? Well that's another matter.


----------



## piemelke

but are you convinced ADB is still on board ?, I can imagine him evolving as a person and a writer he is also looking for other directions ?


----------



## Angel of Blood

I'm beyond certain that he is. Have you not read all his notes about it, or the foreword and such. You can tell that he's very excited about the prospect of a long series, his Gaunts Ghosts, and you really tell the tale of Abaddon and rid the Failbaddon image.


----------



## piemelke

yeah sure I did, but as people evolve perspectives and priorities change, as ADB might be doing other (non-BL) projects, I can imagine books get delayed. In all honesty I can imagine him looking for other/new challenges, I mean he has proven that he can write best of the class BL books, he knows that recipe and although still fun to do it becomes less challenging (that would be my reasoning), he might want to explore his potential in different genres (I'd read them)?


----------



## Nordicus

piemelke said:


> yeah sure I did, but as people evolve perspectives and priorities change, as ADB might be doing other (non-BL) projects, I can imagine books get delayed. In all honesty I can imagine him looking for other/new challenges, I mean he has proven that he can write best of the class BL books, he knows that recipe and although still fun to do it becomes less challenging (that would be my reasoning), he might want to explore his potential in different genres (I'd read them)?


If you follow his facebook, read his blogs, read his forewords etc. then I could almost guarantee you that he is in for the long haul in the 40k universe in general.


----------



## Sevatar

Nordicus said:


> If you follow his facebook, read his blogs, read his forewords etc. then I could almost guarantee you that he is in for the long haul in the 40k universe in general.


Yeah, I wouldn't worry about ADB. Dan Abnett on the other hand...


----------



## Captain_Loken

Sevatar said:


> Yeah, I wouldn't worry about ADB. Dan Abnett on the other hand...


 
I think the point was about ADB writing the Black Legion series, bud.


----------



## forkmaster

Captain_Loken said:


> To be honest, I don't take the word of the author until I hear from Black Library. The author may have planned a book two, but that doesn't mean BL picked it up.
> 
> Lets hope they do. However, that could explain why I haven't found any info on it from any other source than ADB.


When it comes to ADB writing about Chaos, you can be assured BL will pick it up.



Captain_Loken said:


> But no hard date yet? Probably told early. Thanks for the link, Matcap.


BL is crap when it comes to announcing their own products. Amazon is announcing them months before BL has even gotten their head out of their behinds. Heck sometimes they are just there on the web-site with no announcement what's so ever.


----------



## piemelke

Nordicus said:


> If you follow his facebook, read his blogs, read his forewords etc. then I could almost guarantee you that he is in for the long haul in the 40k universe in general.


I fully agree, but I can see his letters/year towards BL reducing


----------



## MontytheMighty

I don't know about "evolving as a person" and all that...but if BL doesn't respect its authours, it will lose them


----------



## forkmaster

For you who missed it, it appears that ADB will be writing _Master of Mankind_ (or has been secretly working on it for 6 months) before _Black Legion_.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

He's been working on it for longer than that, and not so secretly either. He mentioned it a couple of years ago at least.


----------



## Vitarus

Is there a release date for MoM?


----------



## Matcap

Not yet, but he's working on it at the moment. His personal blog updated with this:
https://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2015/08/28/okay-okay-fine-this-is-what-im-writing/

"Okay, okay, fine. This is what I’m writing."


----------



## forkmaster

Khorne's Fist said:


> He's been working on it for longer than that, and not so secretly either. He mentioned it a couple of years ago at least.


But then he announced taking a break from it, so it's "secret" in the way we didn't know he'd picked up on writing it again.


----------



## Vitarus

Anyway, it was DBC who said, "...which I’ve been writing in secret since January."


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

forkmaster said:


> But then he announced taking a break from it, so it's "secret" in the way we didn't know he'd picked up on writing it again.


Close! After _Talon_, a long time back, I said it was probably going to be next in line. I then spent all of last year writing _Ragnar Blackmane_ instead, as I wanted a break from the Heresy and the setting's intricate innards and guts. I started it, in secret, in January - and GW asked me not to say anything about it. So this is the first time I've ever said I was actually writing it.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Close! After _Talon_, a long time back, I said it was probably going to be next in line. I then spent all of last year writing _Ragnar Blackmane_ instead, as I wanted a break from the Heresy and the setting's intricate innards and guts. I started it, in secret, in January - and GW asked me not to say anything about it. So this is the first time I've ever said I was actually writing it.


Awesome. Don't suppose you can or are allowed to give us a guestimate on the release for it?


----------



## Mellow_

One would imagine that even when a book is finished by the author it would need final sign off, proof reading for canon errors (yeah, that's made me smile too!) and then it would be down to BL or whoever to decide when it goes to print. Hopefully it's nothing to do with ADB and then we can't blame him for the slow release :grin:


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Mellow_ said:


> One would imagine that even when a book is finished by the author it would need final sign off, proof reading for canon errors (yeah, that's made me smile too!) and then it would be down to BL or whoever to decide when it goes to print. Hopefully it's nothing to do with ADB and then we can't blame him for the slow release :grin:


Tee...



Angel of Blood said:


> Awesome. Don't suppose you can or are allowed to give us a guestimate on the release for it?


...hee!

No idea, sorry. I'd guess (and this is really a very raw guess) that MoM would be out this time next year? It's going pretty well but I have no idea where it sits in the schedule these days, the Heresy is trucking on fine without me slowing it down anyway.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> No idea, sorry. I'd guess (and this is really a very raw guess) that MoM would be out this time next year? It's going pretty well but I have no idea where it sits in the schedule these days, the Heresy is trucking on fine without me slowing it down anyway.


Awesome either way, cheers for answering.


----------



## Mellow_

My fingers are crossed that it won't be a limited release. I want MoM on iBooks as soon as its ready so I can download that bad boy and start enjoying a story that isn't about bloody Calth or bloody Isstvan!


----------



## forkmaster

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Close! After _Talon_, a long time back, I said it was probably going to be next in line. I then spent all of last year writing _Ragnar Blackmane_ instead, as I wanted a break from the Heresy and the setting's intricate innards and guts. I started it, in secret, in January - and GW asked me not to say anything about it. So this is the first time I've ever said I was actually writing it.


Speaking of _Talon_, do you know when the pocket version will be available?


----------



## Phoebus

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> No idea, sorry. I'd guess (and this is really a very raw guess) that MoM would be out this time next year? It's going pretty well but I have no idea where it sits in the schedule these days, the Heresy is trucking on fine without me slowing it down anyway.


I respect your professionalism and the loyalty you show to your fellow authors and friends in the company, but let's respectfully agree to disagree. I'm not even getting into a debate based on subjective opinions ("this novel is better, this novel sucks!"). Nor am I arguing that the Horus Heresy should have a series completion deadline.

That having been said, it's been seven years since _Fulgrim_ was first released. A grand total of four novel-size entries have been released since _The Unremembered Empire,_ almost two years ago. One of those was first released as a serialized novel a couple of months before Dan's tale. Another was an anthology of re-released novellas, short stories, and audio products.

Again, I'm not making a subjective call based on quality... I just dispute the idea that you would somehow be slowing down any further something that's already going at, shall we say, a "leisurely pace"?

:wink:


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## forkmaster

Phoebus said:


> I respect your professionalism and the loyalty you show to your fellow authors and friends in the company, but let's respectfully agree to disagree. I'm not even getting into a debate based on subjective opinions ("this novel is better, this novel sucks!"). Nor am I arguing that the Horus Heresy should have a series completion deadline.
> 
> That having been said, it's been seven years since _Fulgrim_ was first released. A grand total of four novel-size entries have been released since _The Unremembered Empire,_ almost two years ago. One of those was first released as a serialized novel a couple of months before Dan's tale. Another was an anthology of re-released novellas, short stories, and audio products.
> 
> Again, I'm not making a subjective call based on quality... I just dispute the idea that you would somehow be slowing down any further something that's already going at, shall we say, a "leisurely pace"?
> 
> :wink:


Couldn't have expressed it better myself! :victory:


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## DelvarusThePitFighter

Maybe because I'm somewhat of an underdog lover (says the Ultramarine collector) I've never much liked the black legion, however it should be awesome because IMO ABD is one the best if not the best black library author around


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## Angel of Blood

DelvarusThePitFighter said:


> Maybe because I'm somewhat of an underdog lover (says the Ultramarine collector) I've never much liked the black legion, however it should be awesome because IMO ABD is one the best if not the best black library author around


Underdog lover? Well welcome to the Black Legion before it became as such. When the Chaos Legions were arguably at their weakest. Turning on each other at ever opportunity, scattered, lost, yet to have any true purpose. Hell the Sons of Horus have been all but annihilated, more so by their fellow traitors than the loyalists, being ruthlessly hunted down for leaving the others at the Siege of Terra.

If you haven't done so already, as it sounds. Get this novel and read it. You won't find any better in the BL range, some equals(I'm looking at you Eisenhorn), but none better.


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## Lorgar Aurelian

Hey everyone. Just wanted to ask has anyone found or know of a way to read 'The Wonderworker' online?

The short chapter released for the hardcore day one people that the rest have to miss out on. I hear it is good and after loving the Talon of Horus (and wanting ADB to get on with the next one even if it means sacking off Master of Mankind :grin I wanted to read this.


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## Kharn The Complainer

I'm late to the party. I've only just read ToH and I generally thought it was great. I found the change in Abaddon to be somewhat abrupt.

In HH we see him as a beligerant ball of fury. Now he's putting on tea parties and twiddling his moustache. For me it was comperable to the change in the Necrons Codex. From mindless autonmatons to art collecting cads.

I know it's mentioned in the text that even the other characters are surprised at his change, but he really does come across as a completely different character. Indeed, time changes people, but not THAAAAT much. Perhaps we'll see some more of his old anger coming through in future stories.

Other than that, I really enjoyed it. It was one of those books where you read and read and suddenly you notice that you've read over half the story in one sitting.


Edit; Oh, I wonder if ADB will ever address the issue of Abaddon's arms. Will he explain how he lost them? ;-)


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## Angel of Blood

Time changes people sure. But events change them more. This is Abaddon after the failure of the Heresy. During the Heresy and even the Great Crusade, his faith and belief in Horus was absolute, completely confident in their path and victory. But then Horus, his beloved and idolised father is killed. Not just killed but obliterated and erased from existence. The war is lost, they're forced to flee before the wrath of the loyalists and erased from Imperial records, the great and famous/infamous Abaddon, known across the Imperium forgotten. 

Then within the Eye the remains of his Legion are slowly hunted down and murdered by the other traitor legions, their once proud and famed reputation ruined and forgotten, only their 'cowardice' at the Seige remembered. 

I'd say his change is justified.


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## Kharn The Complainer

Angel of Blood said:


> *snip*
> 
> I'd say his change is justified.



I understand where you're coming from and I agree to a point. But again, this was not even a 90% personality change. It was 100% Every single aspect of HH Abaddon is gone. To be honest, I never really liked HH Abaddon as I found him to be slightly too one dimensional (until later novels where they gave him a little more to his personality other than ASSHOLE). But still, this total change is jarring.

The ADB Abaddon is, in every way other than name, a completely new and different 40k character.


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## Brother Lucian

Kharn The Complainer said:


> I understand where you're coming from and I agree to a point. But again, this was not even a 90% personality change. It was 100% Every single aspect of HH Abaddon is gone. To be honest, I never really liked HH Abaddon as I found him to be slightly too one dimensional (until later novels where they gave him a little more to his personality other than ASSHOLE). But still, this total change is jarring.
> 
> The ADB Abaddon is, in every way other than name, a completely new and different 40k character.


I still lean to that the TTH Abbadon is the first clone of Horus. Look at the final fight where Abbadon faces Fabius' creation. Khayon could almost not tell them apart, save for their armor and weapons differetiating them.

Some of the older fluff had a rumor that Abbadon was the cloneson of Horus. So I think that the belicose Abbadon perished during the Horus Heresy, and Horus had a backup created to take the role.


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## Kharn The Complainer

Here's an excerpt from my new novel Khârn; The Complainer.



-----------------------
I almost didn't recognise him as he strode across the crowded deck. The warp changes all of us, for better or for worse, but with Khârn it wasn't so much a physical change, but a change to his aura.

"Hello chaps", he declared in a smooth pur. Gone was his gravelly rasp of a voice. "I wondered if you'd all like a spot of tea and perhaps some scones. I baked them myself this morning."

We stared in disbelief as he gestured to us to sit. Moments later he reappeared carrying a large plate of scones with a pot of strawberry jam and a pot of clotted cream. Khârn gestured to his flowery apron. "I won this apron in the great bake-off of Kavurios VII. There was some stiff competition, but my 3 tiered lemon meringue pie really won over the judges. Who could possibly resist a second tier covered in condensed milk?"

"Khârn!", I exclaimed, spreading the clotted cream thickly over the fresh scone, "What ever happened to you? You have changed!"

As he looked at me, a kindly smile crept across his battle scarred face.
"Well darling, 10,000 years of combat changes us all. After the massacre of Purvis I decided to take a good long look at my life and I asked myself, 'am I really happy?', and you know what? I couldn't say 'yes'. I said to myself, 'Khârn, you silly goose, is this the way you want to live your life? Filled with hatred, anger and death?' "

Khârn gestured to a box near the table. I peered curiously inside and noticed that within its cardboard shell were 4 beautiful kittens.

Khârn nodded to me and continued, "You see, I realised that I had caused far too much suffering in my time. Now it's time for change. I have opened a shelter for the galaxy's abandoned kittens. Do you know how many kittens were abandoned during the last Black Crusade?"

I stared at him blanky, taking a sip of tea from the delicate porcelain cup. "No, I can't say that I do."

Khârn let out a jovial chuckle. "To be honest, neither do I, but I can assure you that the number is high."

How could this have happened to him? How could he have changed from the most violent creature in the galaxy to a master baker and owner of a kitten sanctuary. Time changes people sure. But perhaps events change them more. 

After the failure of the Heresy could anyone be surprised that Khârn would change this much? During the Heresy and even the Great Crusade, his faith and belief in Angron was absolute, completely confident in their path and victory. But then Angron, his beloved and idolised father turned into a great big piece of shit.

After Terra, the war was lost, he was found dead as his brothers were forced to flee before the wrath of the loyalists. Although he miraculously recovered, he then found himself erased from Imperial records, which, lets face it, was upsetting for all of us.

Then within the Eye the remains of his Legion were slowly hunted down and murdered by the other traitor legions, their once proud and famed reputation ruined and forgotten, only their 'cowardice' at the Seige remembered. 

-------------------


I'm going to give Angel of Blood and ADB some writing credit as they both inspired me grately. If Abaddon is justified in such a dramatic change, surely they all are. ;-)


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## forkmaster

To be fair, he has been wandering sinde the Eye for an unknown amount of time. In the outside Void, it has passed cirka 2000 years. In the Eye he could have wandered for a very much longer time than that. Hence his change.


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## Squire

I loved Talon of Horus, couldn't put it down! Brilliant cast of characters and I'm always a sucker for stories involving a group of guys from different legions working together. I think it works well because you can pick up a story featuring a bunch of new characters and already know something about them based on the character of their respective legions. 

As always ADB's World Eaters are brilliant. Before Betrayer the WE legion were, for me, a boring one dimensional legion that didn't really interest me. Bowden made them so much more, and after reading Talon I'm starting to think it might be the element of humour that makes them appealing

I look forward to the follow up to this and the prospect of the Alpha Legion being introduced adds to that- not to mention traitor primarchs post heresy

EDIT: Regarding the change in personality of Abaddon, this version is better and makes more sense to me. The Abaddon of the original HH trilogy kind of fits the purpose of that three book story but probably doesn't justify Horus' affection for him. Maybe you could rationalise it as the initial portrayal of Abaddon being primarily from Loken's perspective... I don't know. I'm happy with authors having different takes on characters anyway and prefer a bit of inconsistency if that means characters and concepts in the 40k universe can be improved upon over time.


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## Kharn The Complainer

forkmaster said:


> To be fair, he has been wandering sinde the Eye for an unknown amount of time. In the outside Void, it has passed cirka 2000 years. In the Eye he could have wandered for a very much longer time than that. Hence his change.


And by that logic, my depiction of Kharn is equally valid, don't you agree?


I know there are contradicting accounts of who lead the first Black Crusade, but the 6th edition says it was Abaddon.
This happened in 781.M31.
The Heresy ended in 014.M31

Now, I know "THE WARP DID IT" explains any tricky problems BL and GW get into with time scales, but in most novels they state that time in the warp moves slower. In the Night Lords novels only a few hundred years have passed in the warp since the HH and they're fighting pretty much around M40.

Now we have Abaddon crusading in and out of the warp and seemlingly 10,000 years have passed in the warp but only 1000 have passed in the real space.
Actually ADB never states such a thing. The posters here all seem to think that a vast amount of time has passed which allows Abaddon to completely change his personality.

THE WARP DID IT.
Fine, fine.

The great thing about fanboys is that they will defend any irrational event. ADB could have Abaddon shitting rainbows and you'd all be climbing over each other to explain how it makes sense.

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed the novel, as I did with the Night Lords trilogy. ADB writes some lovely things. I am just hung up on the vast change in Abby's personality.

But hey, THE WARP DID IT.


Regarding Brother Lucian's thoughts that;_* " the belicose Abbadon perished during the Horus Heresy, and Horus had a backup created to take the role. "*
_A really interesting idea. Very interesting indeeeeeed. It would be pretty awesome if we later discovered that Abaddon wanted the cloning shit destroyed because he wanted to be the only clone. That would neatly explain his change in personality since he wasn't the original Abaddon. Also, we don't have to keep relying on the whole THE FUCKING WARP DID IT to explain why shit doesn't make sense.

The Warp = Wizard.
https://youtu.be/sVgVB3qsySQ


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## MontytheMighty

Belligerent Angry Marine Abaddon went through a personal odyssey in the Warp

Death of Horus greatly affected him


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## Angel of Blood

I don't subscribe to him being in their for a lot longer. I just think the result of the Heresy, the defeat and subsequent events justify his change just fine. I've never been an Abaddon fanboy either. I didn't like him much at all before ToH, still not a Abby fanboy. I want to read more of Khayon and Lheor. 

As for the cloning theory. I've personally hates that theory ever since I first heard it.


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## forkmaster

Kharn The Complainer said:


> And by that logic, my depiction of Kharn is equally valid, don't you agree?


I am unfamiliar about what depiction of Khârn you refer to.



Kharn The Complainer said:


> I know there are contradicting accounts of who lead the first Black Crusade, but the 6th edition says it was Abaddon.


Black Crusades are a bit tricky as they both refer to Abaddons numbered ones, and then there _a_ Black Crusade any daemon or Chaos Lord has lead. The 1st through 13th Crusades are all Abbadons.



Kharn The Complainer said:


> Now, I know "THE WARP DID IT" explains any tricky problems BL and GW get into with time scales, but in most novels they state that time in the warp moves slower. In the Night Lords novels only a few hundred years have passed in the warp since the HH and they're fighting pretty much around M40.
> 
> Now we have Abaddon crusading in and out of the warp and seemlingly 10,000 years have passed in the warp but only 1000 have passed in the real space.
> Actually ADB never states such a thing. The posters here all seem to think that a vast amount of time has passed which allows Abaddon to completely change his personality.


It's a common used tropé in 40k fiction, but still valid. It's not mentioned as it's more or less common knowledge now. Abnett displayed the tricks of the Warp in his first GG book when some of his men have experienced a long time, while others haven't felt the time has passed at all. The Warp exist outside our linear timeline, it doesn't go faster or slower, we just experience it differently. Doctor Who's Wibbly Wobbley-explanation is the best visual I can apply in this case.



Kharn The Complainer said:


> The great thing about fanboys is that they will defend any irrational event. ADB could have Abaddon shitting rainbows and you'd all be climbing over each other to explain how it makes sense.


Or find a rational thought or theory on how it could be as it could be. I think ADB get a lot of shit, but he is very thourough with background research unlike many other authors. Frankly the clone-theory seems to outlandish to me, just like everyone is trying to make crazy ideas about Rey and how she is related to both Luke and Obi-Wan.

Abaddon wanders through the eye for an eternity. He sees things, experience things, debates with himself after all he believed in was destroyed. It seems like a big personality change from out perspective as Abaddon is portrayed in one way in books that were written 10 years ago and how his is portrayed now. The background lore updates, different authors have their personal take on things, I think this is a development that has improved a lot only.


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## Kharn The Complainer

forkmaster said:


> I am unfamiliar about what depiction of Khârn you refer to.


Awww....so you didn't read my epic short story? I wrote it just for you!





> Or find a rational thought or theory on how it could be as it could be. I think ADB get a lot of shit, but he is very thourough with background research unlike many other authors. Frankly the clone-theory seems to outlandish to me, just like everyone is trying to make crazy ideas about Rey and how she is related to both Luke and Obi-Wan.


Wait...are you suggesting that Abaddon is the son of Luke Skywalker? I like this idea. Make it canon!


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## forkmaster

Kharn The Complainer said:


> Wait...are you suggesting that Abaddon is the son of Luke Skywalker? I like this idea. Make it canon!


Well it's not worse than the clone-theory.


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## MontytheMighty

Angel of Blood said:


> I don't subscribe to him being in their for a lot longer. I just think the result of the Heresy, the defeat and subsequent events justify his change just fine. I've never been an Abaddon fanboy either. I didn't like him much at all before ToH, still not a Abby fanboy. I want to read more of Khayon and Lheor.
> 
> As for the cloning theory. I've personally hates that theory ever since I first heard it.


ADB's Abby is jarringly different from previous portrayals

ADB's early Lorgar is also jarringly different from his later, purposeful Lorgar.

In both cases, we don't get to follow their personal odysseys. We get a brief glimpse of Lorgar's in Aurelian. 

We get even less insight into Abby' time in the Warp.

However, as readers we can accept that:

1. ADB's portrayal doesn't necessarily have to adhere to previous portrayals

2. ADB's portrayal is not irreconcilable...a few decades in the Warp after the death of your primarch and the shattering of your legion...such events would affect any marine


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