# Ultramarines Supplement - 'Tyrannic War Veterans'



## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Here is what seems to be the next Space Marine Company suplement, a quite likely bet imo



> For once i have a little birdy, that hasn't left a mess on my shoulder, it seems that the Ultramarines will be receiving their own Company Supplement, focusing on the events of the war against Hive Fleet Behemoth and the 1st company.
> 
> As usual, take with a grain of salt, but i'd say it's pretty much a no brainer when it comes to deciding what to focus an Ultramarines fluff book on, especially since the Damnos campaign is already covered elsewhere.


Linky link for credz


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Oh goody I'm so excited for this I'm going to vomit! Wait it's not excitment that's making me want to vomit...

Oh all the chapters that need a supplement the fucking Smurfs are not where they should be putting their energy. As all the UM fan boys keep saying "they are definition of Codex". Good fuck off and stick to Codex Space Marines. Leave the supplements to Chapters that actually need it. You want to play 1st Company do what every other Chapter has to do and use the Dark Angels dex. How about a supplement for a Chapter that actually needs one...


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

I'd be interested to see how the Ultramarines supplement sells. Almost every Space Marine player I know hates that their army is almost immediately associated with them. And they all selected a different chapter for their Chapter Tactics.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Do Ultramarines players still exist?


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

venomlust said:


> Do Ultramarines players still exist?


Yes. But I don't actually play anymore.


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## kickboxerdog (Jun 2, 2011)

im quite looking forward to this im currently converting and putting together a tyrannic war vet army lead by chaplin cassius. personally i dont play UM as i have a imperial fist and raven guard armys but this may push me into playing the army and not keeping it as a conversion project.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

So does this mean that the UMs are not a pure codex chapter? Are we gonna see something like a Wolf Guard or Deathwatch supplement just painted blue? (I use these units as they seem to me to be the closest to the style a Tyrannic vet list might look like.)


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> So does this mean that the UMs are not a pure codex chapter?


I believe the little fluff piece on the Tyrannic War Veterans in the 5th edition Codex stated that Calgar knew that it was a departure from the Codex: Astartes, but if it let them beat the Tyranids then it was excusable (which I believe is referred to as the 'By any means necessary' edict in _Know No Fear_).

I'm kind of sad that they have the time to write a chunky Space Marine book with 2 supplements, but still overshadow Dark Angels so utterly.

Midnight


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

MidnightSun said:


> but still overshadow Dark Angels so utterly.


Having not read the DA codex I'm open to correction, but I thought everything necessary to run the various DA options like DW or RW were all in the book? What more do they need?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

They need:
Tacticals that can stand up to Space Marine Tacticals (who get a free special rule or two, from FnP 6+ to re-roll 1s to hit with their basic weapons)
Scouts that can stand up to Space Marine Scouts (have the requisite gear to make them useful, and aren't horrifically overpriced)
Bikes that can stand up to Space Marine Bikes (Ravenwing < White Scars, is essentially all that needs to be said)
HQ choices that can stand up to Space Marine HQ choices outside of Divination Librarians (decent Relics, some kind of combat character that again, isn't prohibitively expensive)
Decent Flyers/Flyer defence (because Flyers > DA Flyers)

It'd be nice if Deathwing worked as an army, too, or even if they worked as a portion of an army.

Midnight


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> Ravenwing < White Scars


Why is this true?

And honestly: keep the supplements coming. Whether we like them or not, whether we get the extra fluff and smattering of rule changes for our army we crave or not, because ultimately it means that 6th is gunna last longer. With the speed at which the codices are being released this gives GW a viable option to make books/models/upgrade sprues to match specialty units from supplements instead of making a new rulebook and doing it all again.

Maybe anyway.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

So you don't actually want a supplement, you want a rewritten codex within months of it's release?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

ntaw said:


> Why is this true?


Space Marine bikers are 6pts per model cheaper, have a *much* cheaper unlock character in Khan, get 4+ Jink instead of 5+, and have Str5 Hammer of Wrath hits. Ravenwing get Teleport Homers, yeah, and a few other benefits (Attack Bikes being a seperate unit is something of a bonus, and you can use the Standard of Devastation), but for the huge price increase for _less_ durability, Ravenwing aren't worth it over White Scars.



Khorne's Fist said:


> So you don't actually want a supplement, you want a rewritten codex within months of it's release?


Yes, but that's unrealistic so a supplement will do.

Midnight


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## iamtheeviltwin (Nov 12, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> Tacticals that can stand up to Space Marine Tacticals


 because Grim Resolve (or Inner Circle) on all tacticals isn't basically DA Chapter Tactics



MidnightSun said:


> Scouts that can stand up to Space Marine Scouts (have the requisite gear to make them useful, and aren't horrifically overpriced)


I'll give you this one. Although Sniper scouts cost both armies the same, overall space marine scouts are better because of lack of Grim Resolve on DA scouts and no LS storm as dedicated transport.



MidnightSun said:


> Bikes that can stand up to Space Marine Bikes (Ravenwing < White Scars, is essentially all that needs to be said)


What...scout and teleport homers on every bike isn't enough (oh yeah, and the ability to split one choice into 3 scoring units)



MidnightSun said:


> HQ choices that can stand up to Space Marine HQ choices outside of Divination Librarians, (decent Relics, some kind of combat character that again, isn't prohibitively expensive)


Better Psychic Disciplines, 3 wound Chaplains, Fearless on all HQ outside of Techmarines. They only lack the Master of the Forge. DA relics are decent and better priced than most of the relics from C:SM, also the Sacred Banners and a number of other unique wargear (power fields, etc) are only available to DA.



MidnightSun said:


> Decent Flyers/Flyer defence (because Flyers > DA Flyers)


 Hunter/Stalker are nice, but are basically alternatives to an Aegis line. The only significant Anti-Flyer the DA are missing is the Storm Raven. Prescience is also nice for Anti-Flyer. The difference is not as wide as you think. (As for the flyers, the Neph is probably about 15pts overcost, and the Talon is an anti-infantry fighter...)



MidnightSun said:


> It'd be nice if Deathwing worked as an army, too, or even if they worked as a portion of an army.


 Small model counts armies are vulnerable to certain lists, that is true across the board and is a R-P-S thing. However, if you can't find ways to make Deathwing synergize with the rest of your army you are not trying.


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## iamtheeviltwin (Nov 12, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> Space Marine bikers are 6pts per model cheaper, have a *much* cheaper unlock character in Khan, get 4+ Jink instead of 5+, and have Str5 Hammer of Wrath hits. Ravenwing get Teleport Homers, yeah, and a few other benefits (Attack Bikes being a seperate unit is something of a bonus, and you can use the Standard of Devastation), but for the huge price increase for _less_ durability, Ravenwing aren't worth it over White Scars.


You have to compare Ravenwing bikes vs. Standard Space Marine bikes first of all, the RW vs WS debate is a separate one. For 6pts more than a SM bike, a RW bike gains Hit and Run, Scout, and Teleport Homers. As for the overall cost. Also another difference for RW For 10pts less (206 RW, 213 SM), you are sacrificing 2 bikes for the ability to have 3 units, compared to 2 units for SM. 

If you are solely comparing a full Bike Ravenwing army with a full Bike White Scar army and buying the exact same units (Named HQ to unlock troops and all bikes with same gear) at the same point level the White Scar army will have roughly 1 extra bike per 5 bikes (or 20% more bikes). The White Scars will also have Skilled Rider (+1 Jink and ignore dangerous terrain) and +1 ST Hammer of Wrath. The Ravenwing will have Grim Resolve. But that would be a ridiculous army build for either RW or WS, and both armies will get blown off the table by a flock of Helldrakes or any army fielding decent "ignores cover" weapons.

However, each army if built TO THE STRENGTHS of their codex will look and play differently. At that point the "WS > RW" comparisons will start to break down as each army has different playstyles and it becomes more of a choice of what units to take that capitalize on the army strengths. (and that is forcing the WS player to only take choices that a RW player would take).

All that being said, DA is more than just "Ravenwing" and hopefully a good White Scar army is more than "Bikers in Space". Once you start to work with the whole tools of the codex, the armies diverge even more.

As for the supplement thing...The DA codex didn't leave much room for a supplement. The two divergent armies (Deathwing and Ravenwing) are covered in great detail and given a plethora of special units, equipment and rules. Weird to say, but if DA get a supplement it is most likely to be a "Greenwing" supplement to expand upon the part of the army with the least "character".


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> I believe the little fluff piece on the Tyrannic War Veterans in the 5th edition Codex stated that Calgar knew that it was a departure from the Codex: Astartes, but if it let them beat the Tyranids then it was excusable (which I believe is referred to as the 'By any means necessary' edict in _Know No Fear_).
> 
> I'm kind of sad that they have the time to write a chunky Space Marine book with 2 supplements, but still overshadow Dark Angels so utterly.
> 
> Midnight


It was the 4th Edition Codex, which was written by Graham McNeill.

McNeill is a knucklehead who wouldn't understand the Codex if it was presented to him in musical pop-up book form.


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> Space Marine bikers are 6pts per model cheaper, have a *much* cheaper unlock character in Khan, get 4+ Jink instead of 5+, and have Str5 Hammer of Wrath hits. Ravenwing get Teleport Homers, yeah, and a few other benefits (Attack Bikes being a seperate unit is something of a bonus, and you can use the Standard of Devastation), but for the huge price increase for _less_ durability, Ravenwing aren't worth it over White Scars.
> Midnight


Bikering is what the White Scars do.

The Ravenwing was just a unique formation for the Dark Angels. They were never supposed to be the bestest of all bestest bikers. That was pretty much always the Scars. 

Because White Scars are silly Mongolian Trope. Rarrr. What else would they be good at doing?


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Veteran Sergeant said:


> The Ravenwing was just a unique formation for the Dark Angels. They were never supposed to be the bestest of all bestest bikers. That was pretty much always the Scars.


This I tend to agree with. Whenever I have thought 'bike army' I've definitely thought White Scars. I'm kinda glad that you don't have to play them out of the DA dex for them to be the best at it, but I also understand why you (midnight) feel shafted.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

So the Ultramarines supplement covers Tyrannic War vets; does that mean an Ultras player will have PE: Tyranids? Would be an interesting move given that the supplement should hit roughly when the Tyranid codex does. Could put Tyranid players in a tizzy. 

As for the WS vs RW debate, I'll agree that a WS bike is usually the better choice, given the Skilled Rider benefits. However, RW has access to a nasty plasma upgrade and, thanks to Scout, a means to get it in place quickly. One thing everyone seems to forget, especially when they complain about WS +1 Hammer is that Bikes are not assault troops. Sure, fluff says they are drafted from assault squads but they play like highly mobile tactical units. This is where RW will excel thanks to the Banner of Devastation and Hit and Run(if you do get assaulted, break free and shoot). Sure, a WS Biker may live longer because of improved Jink but the RW Biker should do much more damage.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> They need:
> Tacticals that can stand up to Space Marine Tacticals (who get a free special rule or two, from FnP 6+ to re-roll 1s to hit with their basic weapons)
> Scouts that can stand up to Space Marine Scouts (have the requisite gear to make them useful, and aren't horrifically overpriced)
> Bikes that can stand up to Space Marine Bikes (Ravenwing < White Scars, is essentially all that needs to be said)
> ...


Pretty much this. the last comment in particular!

I love my Deathwing. Truly do. But I have to pay the best part of 190 points for a VERY average character to play it. Terminator Librarians are ace, Belial is little more than a 'Terminator Tax'.

Of course Smurfs were going to get a Supplement. It's written all over the current trend that GW are wearing these days.


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

Did I miss something here? I thought the Codex included all the rules for the chapters it covers - Smurfs, White Scars, Imperial and Crimson Fists, Templars, Salamanders, Iron Hands and Raven Guard. I thought the supplements would just be the Dark and Blood Angels and Space Wolves.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Archon Dan said:


> However, RW has access to a nasty plasma upgrade and, thanks to Scout, a means to get it in place quickly.


If you're talking about Knights, they're prohibitively expensive. I have never seen them in a list.



Archon Dan said:


> One thing everyone seems to forget, especially when they complain about WS +1 Hammer is that Bikes are not assault troops. Sure, fluff says they are drafted from assault squads but they play like highly mobile tactical units. This is where RW will excel thanks to the Banner of Devastation and Hit and Run(if you do get assaulted, break free and shoot). Sure, a WS Biker may live longer because of improved Jink but the RW Biker should do much more damage.


But being in combat is better than being out of it in the opponent's turn, and White Scars have the potential to actually do something while they're there with higher strength HoW and numerical advantage over DA. Besides, White Scars have Hit and Run too, so they can do the same thing.



iamtheeviltwin said:


> because Grim Resolve (or Inner Circle) on all tacticals isn't basically DA Chapter Tactics


And lo, did the great lords of Power Armour bestow upon the Dark Angels a Chapter Tactic that is a fucking liability. It is NEVER good. There are not enough Marines to tarpit; you have no fear of being run down in combat; against shooting, Stubborn is useless; in Combat, you are less likely to flee and therefore be able to shoot, rather than sit and get punched.



iamtheeviltwin said:


> What...scout and teleport homers on every bike isn't enough (oh yeah, and the ability to split one choice into 3 scoring units)


If you're taking SM Bikes as any kind of real force, you're taking Khan, so you get Scout. Teleport Homers are really shitty for 6pts; you can summon up your Deathwing with no scatter, but they still suck, so making them bad and accurate isn't meaningfully better than making them bad and inaccurate.



iamtheeviltwin said:


> Better Psychic Disciplines, 3 wound Chaplains, Fearless on all HQ outside of Techmarines. They only lack the Master of the Forge. DA relics are decent and better priced than most of the relics from C:SM, also the Sacred Banners and a number of other unique wargear (power fields, etc) are only available to DA.


Sacred Banners, which are very expensive and one of which only works in a Ravenwing build. Chaplains are not Librarians or unlock characters, so it doesn't matter how many wounds they have, really. DA Relics are piss poor, generally; Mace of Redemption is ok, Lion's Wrath is usable, but Foe-Smiter, Shroud of Heroes and Monster Slayer are absolutely awful.



iamtheeviltwin said:


> Hunter/Stalker are nice, but are basically alternatives to an Aegis line. The only significant Anti-Flyer the DA are missing is the Storm Raven. Prescience is also nice for Anti-Flyer. The difference is not as wide as you think. (As for the flyers, the Neph is probably about 15pts overcost, and the Talon is an anti-infantry fighter...)


Stormtalon is much better anti-Flyer than anything DA have native to their Codex, and even that's mediocre. Stormraven is really good, but since DA are Battle Brothers with Blood Angels they don't really miss not having it native to the DA book. Prescience makes things unreliable, instead of 'Worth a try because I have nothing else to shoot'. Nephilim is more like 50pts overcosted; it's a flying Lascannon with AV11. It has absolutely nothing else that is relevant.



iamtheeviltwin said:


> Small model counts armies are vulnerable to certain lists, that is true across the board and is a R-P-S thing. However, if you can't find ways to make Deathwing synergize with the rest of your army you are not trying.


Deathwing are highly overcosted and do nothing that specialists do much more efficiently. They're kind of ok at lots of things, but not actually good at anything (there's a reason that nobody takes Grey Knight Terminators - the only reason Deathwing are still alive is that Tacticals don't have Storm Bolters and Cyclone Missile Launchers).



iamtheeviltwin said:


> You have to compare Ravenwing bikes vs. Standard Space Marine bikes first of all, the RW vs WS debate is a separate one. For 6pts more than a SM bike, a RW bike gains Hit and Run, Scout, and Teleport Homers. As for the overall cost. Also another difference for RW For 10pts less (206 RW, 213 SM), you are sacrificing 2 bikes for the ability to have 3 units, compared to 2 units for SM.


Ravenwing, on the whole, are also 85pts more expensive as that's the cost you pay for Sammael. Sammael is probably better than Khan, but not nearly 100pts more expensive. Azrael's good in a Blob Squad, but at that point you're needing Imperial Guard to shore you up and denying yourself ally combinations.



iamtheeviltwin said:


> If you are solely comparing a full Bike Ravenwing army with a full Bike White Scar army and buying the exact same units (Named HQ to unlock troops and all bikes with same gear) at the same point level the White Scar army will have roughly 1 extra bike per 5 bikes (or 20% more bikes). The White Scars will also have Skilled Rider (+1 Jink and ignore dangerous terrain) and +1 ST Hammer of Wrath. The Ravenwing will have Grim Resolve. But that would be a ridiculous army build for either RW or WS, and both armies will get blown off the table by a flock of Helldrakes or any army fielding decent "ignores cover" weapons.


Not totally bikes, but significant portions of each. Say, three units of bikes apiece alongside ranged support and a melee unit or something. Grim Resolve is bad. Skilled Rider is really good.

I agree that you cannot build an army out of just bikes, but the bikes you do include will be better in the Space Marine book as White Scars if you're taking any amount of them.



iamtheeviltwin said:


> However, each army if built TO THE STRENGTHS of their codex will look and play differently. At that point the "WS > RW" comparisons will start to break down as each army has different playstyles and it becomes more of a choice of what units to take that capitalize on the army strengths. (and that is forcing the WS player to only take choices that a RW player would take).


What are the strengths of the DA Codex, really? Terminators as Troops at a premium (Terminators are bad; making them cost even more points for no major gains doesn't make them good, even if you do pay the 190pt Scoring tax) or elite Terminators that don't score or shoot; Standard of Devastation Ravenwing; Divination. Everything else is a MEQ strength, not a DA strength.



iamtheeviltwin said:


> All that being said, DA is more than just "Ravenwing" and hopefully a good White Scar army is more than "Bikers in Space". Once you start to work with the whole tools of the codex, the armies diverge even more.


DA has no tool that is particularly good. The Flyers are woeful, the Heavy Support is a restricted form of Codex: Space Marine but without Combat Tactics, you can take some super-expensive elite versions of Bikes and Terminators but neither of them score, or you can add a Darkshroud and pretend you're as good as White Scars until somebody points a pointed implement or Tau gun or Heldrake at your Darkshroud.

White Scars are nice because they're independent; Ravenwing probably outperform them on the first turn when they have their Darkshroud and Standard of Devastation active, but as soon as those fragile cores are removed, the army collapses.



iamtheeviltwin said:


> As for the supplement thing...The DA codex didn't leave much room for a supplement. The two divergent armies (Deathwing and Ravenwing) are covered in great detail and given a plethora of special units, equipment and rules. Weird to say, but if DA get a supplement it is most likely to be a "Greenwing" supplement to expand upon the part of the army with the least "character".


True. An errata would be better.

Midnight


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Cypher871 said:


> Did I miss something here?


Yup. Supplements focus on a specific faction within a codex army, so the Farsight Enclave for Tau, UM Nid veterans, CSM Black Legion etc.

I can't think of a reason for DA to get one off the top of my head (not that I know much about their fluff, maybe a 'fallen' supplement?), but there could be Flesh Tearers and maybe Lamenters out of the BA dex, or the 13th company for SW.


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## morfangdakka (Dec 31, 2006)

Well while I am glad that GW is producing supplements this one is confusing why they would do a SM vets supplement unless it was to go with the release of the nids codex. I think other chapters or other armies would have benefited from it more. I guess I will just sit here twiddling myself waiting for my ork klans supplement.


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

ntaw said:


> Yup. Supplements focus on a specific faction within a codex army, so the Farsight Enclave for Tau, UM Nid veterans, CSM Black Legion etc.
> 
> I can't think of a reason for DA to get one off the top of my head (not that I know much about their fluff, maybe a 'fallen' supplement?), but there could be Flesh Tearers and maybe Lamenters out of the BA dex, or the 13th company for SW.


:scratchhead: I knew they were releasing supplements for all the Codices, just didn't think they would be doing supplements for armies already featured in the main book...oh wait...it's GW, if they can make you spend more cash for the same product they will :laugh:


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

^ Now you're getting it! :laugh:


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Cypher871 said:


> :scratchhead: I knew they were releasing supplements for all the Codices, just didn't think they would be doing supplements for armies already featured in the main book...oh wait...it's GW, if they can make you spend more cash for the same product they will :laugh:


Well mate, tell that to us CSM players. We got codex Black Legion with supplement Black Legion to bootunish:


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

MaidenManiac said:


> Well mate, tell that to us CSM players. We got codex Black Legion with supplement Black Legion to bootunish:


Damn those pesky GW staffers...always trying to make an easy buck :laugh:


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Cypher871 said:


> Damn those pesky GW staffers...always trying to make an easy buck :laugh:


Yepp!:crazy:


On a more serious note though:
I like the whole idea with supplements, more diversity will in the end mean a more varied game which is good. Its kind of natural that at least some of the first ones will go to high selling armies, lets just hope that the stream of them wont stop pouring...

Now bring me an Emperors Children supplement!


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## revilo44 (Sep 17, 2010)

is up for preorder now 

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/book/dataslate-tyrannic-war-veterans/id794896450?mt=11


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Words. I has none....

Nope sorry I do. I am disappoint. I thought after the IH supp we were beginning to see some sense in the Supps. Nope. Not at all.


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

The 'Tyrannic War Veterans' are the best thing about the Ultramarines! So I dont have any issues with them appearing in their own Supplement. While I had hoped that they would have been an option within a Deathwatch Supplement, it does make sense to publish the rules now...


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

Since today is the release date, has anyone downloaded it and read through it yet? Good, bad, or otherwise?


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2014/01/first-look-dataslate-tyrannic-war.html

0-6 Infiltrating flyers that can be deployed at the start of the game. If they successfully shoot anything, the rest of the formation can shoot at the same target and ignore cover.

Space Marines desperately needed some attention. Now those poor underpowered bastards can finally start winning some games, eh? *wipes sweat from brow*


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