# How to defeat this cheese?



## Lord Rahl (Mar 13, 2010)

Basically i am having trouble defeating the list below, my regular opponant always uses the same composition and im finding it hard to defeat, even with a differant list each time. 

There is a number of factors to consider when you reply, we are limited to 1000pt army and the board space is only 2' x 4' maximum, unless we book a wk in advance.

The list as follows:

Avatar -155
Farseer w/runes wittnessing, witch blade, fortune, spirit stones, guide -135
x8 warlock w/x1 enhance, witch blades, x1 embolden -220
x10 guardians w/EML, warlock w/witch blade -145
x5 pathfinders -120
x1 wraith lord w/EML, Wraith sword -125
x1 wraith lord w/Shuriken cannon -100
TOTAL =1000

I forgot to add that i will be using a Khornate army against this, next time we meet.


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## Lord Rahl (Mar 13, 2010)

No one can help? There must be some advice out there?


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

I don't play khorne, nor do I play eldar, but as it says you play both, surely you know both armies strengths and weaknesses? Try to look for each units strengths, and then look for a unit or something in your own army that can negate that strength.

E.g. if they have a 2+ and they are really good in close combat, a vindicator S10 AP2 will counter it (I know you don't have access to a vindi, it's an example), as the Ap negates their armour save, and the 30" range (including movement) will mean their number dwindle before they reach you for CC, making them much less effective.

I'm commenting as know one else has, and now that I have replied, I hope more people can give you a more insightfull comment


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

9-man fortuned Jetseer Council is quite nasty in 1000 points.

Charging Berzerkers would probably be your best against the Council.
Quantity over quality is the key to taking them down.
However, mobility will always be an issue. Jetseer Councils are just so dam fast.

Also, id like to point out his extreme lack of troops.
If you are playing an objective-based game, then focus on his troops.
If you take them out, then there is no way that you can lose.... unless he annihilates you completely.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Ultra111 said:


> I don't play khorne, nor do I play eldar, but as it says you play both, surely you know both armies strengths and weaknesses? Try to look for each units strengths, and then look for a unit or something in your own army that can negate that strength.
> 
> E.g. if they have a 2+ and they are really good in close combat, a vindicator S10 AP2 will counter it (I know you don't have access to a vindi, it's an example), as the Ap negates their armour save, and the 30" range (including movement) will mean their number dwindle before they reach you for CC, making them much less effective.
> 
> I'm commenting as know one else has, and now that I have replied, I hope more people can give you a more insightfull comment


Vindicator wont do bugger all against that list.
Jetseer Council have a re-rollable 4+ invulnerable.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

KingOfCheese said:


> Vindicator wont do bugger all against that list.
> Jetseer Council have a re-rollable 4+ invulnerable.


Yeah I understand that (although I know bugger all about eldar units :laugh I was just using it as an example mate.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

They aren't jetseers, they're walking which makes things much easier.

A standard 8 bod squad of Zerkers (w. fist) is looking at ~ three dead warlocks on the charge (and a decent chance of IKing the farseer if the fist gets at him), so two squads charging will likely wipe out the squad in two combat phases. That same squad charging a wraithlord should ~kill it in one phase. With rhino transports getting the charge off should be a formality.

A 2' x 4' board isn't a game. 4' x 4' is a little better but 6' x 4' required to get your tactic on. 

Your opponent lacks mobility, long range shooting and troops. Play on a decent sized board and you should be fine.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

OddJob said:


> They aren't jetseers, they're walking which makes things much easier.


Ahhhh, so they are. Seems i overlooked that part. :blush:

In which case, big units of Berzerkers in Rhino's on the charge will work.
Be sure to give the Skull Champ a Power Fist.
You can direct the PF attacks on the Farseer to instant-kill him, and if the unit happens to get into combat with a Wraithlord then the PF can actually hurt it.

And yes, i would also agree that 1000 points should be played on AT LEAST a 4x4 table.


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## hellsteath (Jun 29, 2010)

try to multi charge the wraith lords and or Avatar and a unit of guardians, with your zerkers, then kill the big guys with combat res.


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## Jernmajoren (May 5, 2009)

Given the small size of the table you usually play on I think you best aproach is to go with a decent size terminator squad w pfs, a prince or two and zerkers with pf champs for the rest then simply crush him in the inevitable big assault thats the result of playing on a small table.

In any case when you assault try to get in contact with either pathfinders or the guardians as they are much easier to kill.
In a multiple assault a zerker unit could wipe the guardians or pathfinders and break other units or wound them if fearless.


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## Daddysen (May 31, 2010)

personally i think playing on that smaller table will work to your advantage since one of the eldar's strengths is mobility and now he has nowhere to go but straight at you.

unfortunately as a khorne player you dont have much for poison attacks but since you have been trying different armies try a chaos lord with the mark of nurgle and a daemon weapon on a bike and hunt down those wraithlords. if you defeat them, i am sure you will weaken your opponents resolve. he might start making mistakes, you must take advantage of this so pay attention to what he does after you pop those beasts.

then throw all your bezerkers at his seer council, wipe out those guardians along the way if you can. plus staying in combat will protect your zerkers better than the rhino(still put them in rhinos anyway).

those missile launchers are gonna pop your transports so maybe take some a couple of dreadnoughts of your own to draw fire and put the heat on him. Use the Dread to chase his pathfinders they can't move and shoot and he would be a fool to leave them there with a dread running toward them. that should keep the pathfinders off of your Lord. for 200 points you can get two dreadnoughts with a pair of DreadnoughtCloseCombatWeasles. here i will post a list you can try i dont know if you have these models avalable to you, but 200 points will get you the dreads and 300 points will get you a pair of defilers

you probably will not need any heavy weapons as the invulnerable saves and the toughness 8 will negate a lot of the strengths that heavy weapons bring. ok this is totally not fluffy but it might work.( if you have access to these models.) so here it is

HQ-(180) Chaos Lord - Bike,Mark of Nurgle, Daemon Weapon
HQ-(130) Chaos Sorcerer - Wind of chaos ( stick him with one of your squads )

Elite-(100) Chaos Dreadnought - DCCW x 2
Elite-(100) Chaos Dreadnought - DCCW x 2

Troops-(243) Khorne Berzerkers(8) - Skull Champ with power fist , Rhino
Troops-(243) Khorne Berzerkers(8) - skull Champ with power fist , Rhino

total-996


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

This eldar list definitely isn't cheesy, nor is it all that good. It's slow, which is a very bad thing for eldar and they have a tonne of T3 guys in the open. 2 Missile launchers (one at BS 4) isn't going to do much to your vehicles over the course of a game.

I would ram 4 rhinos full of zerkers down his throat with lords in them. Any remaining points can buy you obliterators. something to be said about 40ish angry marines in your face.


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## crabpuff (Aug 5, 2008)

Two quick easy Khorne list. Both are mostly just rhinos full of zerks & Kharn. One just uses Chosen the other a Vindie. You can easily adjust to allow for Oblits or a couple C-Dreads. The point of these lists are to take advantage of the small board. 
Rhino rush, pop smoke, eject Zerks/use rhinos to screen and divide forces. Slaughter all!!! BFTBG!!!!
List one - 998
HQ
165) Kharn
Troops-
222) 7 Khorne Berzerkers - Skull Champ w/pfist, Rhino (Kharn's Squad)
243) 8 Khorne Berzerkers - Skull Champ w/pfist, Rhino 
243) 8 Khorne Berzerkers - Skull Champ w/pfist, Rhino 
Hvy Supt: 
125) Vindicator

List Two - 998
HQ
165) Kharn
Elites-
155) 5 Chaos Chosen - 3 Meltaguns, Rhino
Troops-
182) 7 Khorne Berzerkers - Rhino (Kharn's Squad)
243) 8 Khorne Berzerkers - Skull Champ w/pfist, Rhino 
243) 8 Khorne Berzerkers - Skull Champ w/pfist, Rhino


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## Jernmajoren (May 5, 2009)

crabpuff said:


> List one - 998
> HQ
> 165) Kharn
> Troops-
> ...


I like both list though imo rhinoes wont be as useful on a 4*2 table compared to taking greater number of models.
Either use the points from the rhinos to increase the zerker units in either list or drop the vindi/chosen and take terminators with mixed pf/pw you should get about 8 for the points from the rhinoes+vin/cho.
The terminators combined with zerkers should easy handle the eldar list imo.


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## crabpuff (Aug 5, 2008)

That would work too, rhinos were there for battlefield control more than protection. 8 termies w/2x PFists would be keeping with the sacred number for Khorne. 
If you have raptors you could also field two 5 man squads with 2x meltas at 120pts a piece. These would be primarialy for busting up the Wraithlords and counter charges.


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## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

On that small of a board, just grab 3x Zerkers /w Rhino and PF champs (squads of 7-8)and ram them down his neck. I'd recommend a DP /w Wings and Warptime for HQ to keep it cheap, effective, and mobile. 

Drop 1 squad of Zerks to 7 of you want a Vindi, or drop two to 7 of you want 2x Oblits or a Defiler.

I dislike using Kharn at 1k because him+squad will be around 400 pts, so if his Rhino gets stunned/Immob/Wrecked thats a huge portion of your force that won't see combat in time to do its job properly. Using a DP instead guarantees mobility for your CC HQ, and gives him yet another target to split his fire between.


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## Lord Rahl (Mar 13, 2010)

Ok so with all your replys and thoughts im going to try to use this list against him:

Dp w/Mok, Wings -140
x5 Termies w/x1 HF, x1 PF, x3 combi-melta, x1 combi-flamer -185
x8 zerkers w/champ, PF -208
x1 rhino w/EA -50
x8 zerkers w/champ, PW, Plasma pistol -213
x1 rhino w/EA -50
x2 obliterators -150

Total 996

The plan is to use the zerkers to hold up the seer council and kill the guardians, whilst the termies and oblits take out the wraithlords and avatar. What you all think?


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## crabpuff (Aug 5, 2008)

I'd drop the plasma pistol on the Zerk squad and MOK on the DP and upgrade the DP to Wings warptime. Its works much better than Mok. Just remember to use Warptime every turn. Leaves you with about 9 pts maybe another Combi for the termies.


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## bishop5 (Jan 28, 2008)

Play on a 4*4 table for a start.


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## Alpha Legionnaire (Oct 15, 2010)

KingOfCheese said:


> and if the unit happens to get into combat with a Wraithlord then the PF can actually hurt it.


They all can hurt it if they get the charge.

Like the others, get a bigger board or take meaner squads. In general, eldar struggle something fierce against plague marines, the t5 FnP means that the run-of-the-mill eldarian limpwrist hurts them on sixes. The biker council is still your biggest threat, but like the others have said, take a large council of terminators with icon of tzeentch(4++) means you don't fear s9 power weapons, and I'd advocate taking a lord instead of his magical friends, take the daemon weapon on slaanesh and cleave a couple of eldar coneheads down before the s9 pw or the wraithlord pastes him.


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## Jernmajoren (May 5, 2009)

Lord Rahl said:


> Ok so with all your replys and thoughts im going to try to use this list against him:
> 
> Dp w/Mok, Wings -140
> x5 Termies w/x1 HF, x1 PF, x3 combi-melta, x1 combi-flamer -185
> ...


The list looks overall good to me, I would change the PP and Combi-flamer for points to upgrade the champs and 1 more termie to have a PF.
Other than that I think it looks great.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Alpha Legionnaire said:


> They all can hurt it if they get the charge.
> 
> Like the others, get a bigger board or take meaner squads. In general, eldar struggle something fierce against plague marines, the t5 FnP means that the run-of-the-mill eldarian limpwrist hurts them on sixes. The biker council is still your biggest threat, but like the others have said, take a large council of terminators with icon of tzeentch(4++) means you don't fear s9 power weapons, and I'd advocate taking a lord instead of his magical friends, take the daemon weapon on slaanesh and cleave a couple of eldar coneheads down before the s9 pw or the wraithlord pastes him.


Lords Suck, majorly. bear in mind the slaaneshi lord will cream himself 1 in 6 times. a DP with wings and warptime will do a whole lot more damage. with DPs, you dont fear much because he is a 4 wound EW, and he is cheaper than most lords.


Lord Rahl said:


> Ok so with all your replys and thoughts im going to try to use this list against him:
> 
> Dp w/Mok, Wings -140
> x5 Termies w/x1 HF, x1 PF, x3 combi-melta, x1 combi-flamer -185
> ...


drop mok on the DP and the extra armour on one of the rhinos and give the DP warptime. if you want it fluffy, just say he is a khorne DP who re rolls to hit and wound.


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## Gobbo (Jun 4, 2008)

One word - Psycannons


and throw in an old style gk psychic hood.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Gobbo said:


> One word - Psycannons
> 
> 
> and throw in an old style gk psychic hood.


5 WORDS - He plays Chaos Space Marines

not Daemon Hunters


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

mcmuffin said:


> Lords Suck, majorly. bear in mind the slaaneshi lord will cream himself 1 in 6 times. a DP with wings and warptime will do a whole lot more damage. with DPs, you dont fear much because he is a 4 wound EW, and he is cheaper than most lords.
> 
> drop mok on the DP and the extra armour on one of the rhinos and give the DP warptime. if you want it fluffy, just say he is a khorne DP who re rolls to hit and wound.


I noted that he was playing on a teensy table and that dp probably would have zero cover from s9 spears of bullshittery that eldar love to throw. The lord, meanwhile, would be able to strike fast(Simultaneous?) with the eldar council and kill about 30% of the models he hits, so on the charge he's getting somewhere in the safe range of 6-10 swings so on average he kills 1-3 farseers a turn(Forgive me it's been awhile since I've seen a farseers statline.)

Then you have the squad around him to assist.
The DP however, has no squad to protect him, and his only saving grace is t5 5++, and ew with four wounds. All of his psychic powers could make his own head explode as he's undoubtably rolling 3d6 on tests(50% fail rate). And the khornate prince is only marginally more or less reliable then the lord. It's a hard sell, I understand, but I think this is the one circumstance for a lord to shine, aside from stomping tyranid mcs.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Daddysen said:


> personally i think playing on that smaller table will work to your advantage since one of the eldar's strengths is mobility and now he has nowhere to go but straight at you.
> 
> unfortunately as a khorne player you dont have much for poison attacks but since you have been trying different armies try a chaos lord with the mark of nurgle and a daemon weapon on a bike and hunt down those wraithlords. if you defeat them, i am sure you will weaken your opponents resolve. he might start making mistakes, you must take advantage of this so pay attention to what he does after you pop those beasts.
> 
> ...


If he's playing a Khorne list, why would its Lord have a non-Khornate mark?
Or a Sorcerer?

I'd go with Khorne Lord/ Blood Feeder with a squad of Berzerkers.
Another squad of Berzerkers.
A squad of Khorne Terminators.
Make all squads as big as you can manage, Power Fists on the Skull Champs.
Melter Bombs for everyone who can have them.


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