# CSM Havoks



## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

I looked around, I really didn't see much on this particular unit.
I'm putting together 2 Havok teams.
1 Is going to be standard tank hunter 4 Las

the other one I'm not so sure about. I'm almost temped to put 4 melta on them, load them into a rhino, Add a Pf Champ and a Combi-melta.

Anyone tried this? 
The other version I was looking at was making an Anti-infantry Havok, All flamers, Champ w/ Power sword + combi-flamer, As I read it this version will keep the +1A for pistol/CCW combo (all in rhino)

I understand that other units may be better in certain circumstances, but all that is beside the point. I want to know about Havoks.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

If you are going to use an all lascannon havoc squad, the other should be an all heavy bolter squad, the other options are less than optimal, as they are simply special weapon heavy csm squads, and the range is extremely limited, which limits how much they can pay themselves back. Heavy bolters, on the other hand, can start killing on turn one, which seriously increases the likelihood of them not only paying for themselves, but earning extra besides.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

There's much tpo be said for the Khornate Havoc setup (4 meltas, MoK, PF champ, rhino) it;s fast and lethal, but very short ranged.

4 lasers is very expensive. You might be better off with 2 las and 2 missiles for tank-killing. 

For best all-round stationary weapon team though, my vote is 4 missiles. Good at killing tanks, switch to frags for killing troops, and against marines you;ll get more kills with krak missiles than you would with 4 heavy bolters.


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## Blackhiker (Dec 28, 2007)

I'm with galahad. 4 missles seem like the best possible anti-tank with still the possibility to fill infantry at a decent rate.


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## Drax (Sep 19, 2007)

ive had great success with a six man havoc squad comprising of 3 meltaguns, 3 regular csms, a rhino with DP. that costs 175 points and the last game i played, it took out two fire prisms, 3 wave serpents, then set about taking out the remaining 6 of 10 dire avengers and contested an objective - not bad for a small unit i didn't expect too much from


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## Imperial Dragon (Dec 22, 2007)

I'm with galahad too. 4 missles is a really good way to go.


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

Well I already modeled up 3 lascannons (I have to do putty work for finished marine)
So I think I'm gonna go the 2 las 2 missile route. (I really hate tearing apart models) and move one of those Las cannons into a normal squad. (I still have one left to build)

AS for the other unit, I generally play a short ranged game. The army I have the best luck with, and the most experience, is the 3/4th ed Salamanders where you had a ton of flamers, melta, and plasma rifles.
That was one reason why I was looking at doing the 4 melta variety. Makes any of those big bugs in my area think twice about getting to close to my lines. (2nd most common army in my area is Zillanidz, and they do not know how to counter an non-bug army that comes after them, they are to used to picking and choosing where the HTH forms)


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

If you want to go with spec weapons, go for chosen. People don't find it very funny when you use the Outflank maneuver with a squad of chosen packing 4 plasmaguns stuffed in a rhino. :biggrin:


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

I'm actually packing a chosen unit with 3 lightning claws and 2 melta, I still get the charge and I've seen what a unit of chosen w/ lightning claws, and an icon of Slaanesh can do to a unit of marines


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## chaos vince (Jun 10, 2008)

the 4 special weapons works better with chosen, i think you might be able to fit five into a chosen squad, time to find that faq. anyway the mix on havocs missiles are nice but i find that at least a few las cannons are needed for those pesky av14 vehicles which missiles just tend to bounce off.


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

Alot of players in my area use the LR which is why I was doing the 4 Las in the first place, however as pointed out, 2 las 2 missile, move some las to stand and deliver squads lowers the points all around but keeps the same number if LR busters, biggest problem with this is I loose the shooting from a normal squad.

I guess I could look at it conversely, I gain a whole Havok squad if the marine squad takes it out.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

I generally take 4 las, but against infantry/light armour opposition, 4 auto cannons gives you a good rate of fire (8 shots) and decent penetration on light vehicles.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

My money's still on the MLs, especially with the 5th ed rules on blasts. Weak against AV14, but that's what assault squads with powerfists are for.


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## theevilleon (Apr 26, 2008)

Don't assault squads with powerfists still have to roll 6s to glance a land raider? With only one or two attacks per power fist, I wouldn't rely on that to smash any av 14 vehicles besides a leman russ. 

I haven't seen the op's army list, but I would stick with the 4 lascannons, unless he has a bunch of other ways to pop real nasty vehicles in his list. I run 4 launchers like Galahad says, but I have 5 melta weapons moving 12" every turn too. Whichever you decide, I would definitely go with 4 of one weapon and not 2 and 2. You want to make sure you get the job done when you shoot at something.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I was thinking more along the lines of dealing with Russes. Assault hits go against rear armor.

Also, remember that Chaos assault units can have meltaguns, so they've got that going for them. I play Blood Angels, so I'm used to VAS packing a pair of meltas and a fist to take out anything. I should have mentioned the meltas, but I guess I took the for granted.

Sure, a land raider or monolith is a tough nut to crack, but I wouldn't bend over backwards just to accommodate one or two notoriously hard to kill tanks (that are also very rare, in my experience)

Also, 3 attacks on the charge ;-)


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

4 misile launchers is usually the way to go. Even if they only glance on av. 14 with 4 of therm going after it that thing will be useless soon enough. If you want all round heavy support go with two obliterators. My cousin always plays two of them and nearly everytime my heavy support is destroyed completely.., Plus the weapon changing will allow them to adapt.... Maybe not as much firepower as a havok but you're not having a one trick pony that will be a lot weaker against infantry.....


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Indeed. An 8-man, 4-missile Havoc team and a pair of solo obliterators make for a cheap, effective HS selection, coming in at around 300 points, off the top of my head, it gives you a lot of highly versatile firepower that's fairly rugged and isn;t eating too many points away from your troops selections.


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

I just want to bring the thread back on topic. I don't care about Oblits, Vehicles of any kind, Chosen, normal SM squads, Or even my stand and fire Havok squad.

I Was asking if anyone has used a 4 melta Rhino havok squad
Conversely I was also wondering about he usefullness of a 4 Flamer squad. I'm not talking theoretical. Many, many, many of my normal players fear my salamanders becuase of the amount of flamers and melta. However They only get 2 per squad, untill the next dex.

I do understand that there needs to be some idea of the rest of my army. 
Just assume that I have supporting features, currently the army stands at 3500pts of infantry alone with another 1500 to 2000 pts of vehicles.

What I'm essentially asking is How good are those units. If I use them Do players tend to gun for them (I do understand that I'm not playing against your players), do you find that the unit tends to do less than you want unless supported by specific style troops. Is the unit only really good on defensive, on flanking, ect... I want to hear about personal experiences, you using or being used against you.

To be honest If the Havok squads could take MM's I'd be using them instead simply "just cause"


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

the flamer unit destroy horde armies and low toughness units like eldar. The melta would be very effective against heavy infantry and tanks. What style of upgrades are you thinking for the rhyno and/or champion in each squad??


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Four meltaguns and a fist (preferably with MoK for the extra PF hit) in a transport are a strong, viable team.

However, their short range and dependence upon transport make them very much a Fast Attack style choice. If you're running a fast army, 'zerks, nightlords, etc, they'll fit in fine. But in a more stationary, range-reliant army, they;re going to be using up a HS slot that could be better used with a traditional heavy weapon team, tank or oblit.

The unit itself is fine, but it's impossible to give any real tactical evaluation of a unit without knowing the kind of army it;s going into and what you have to support it.


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

Alright fair enough. I play, what I term, Medium infantry. Back when Salamanders were first introduced they were termed as a "short Ranged" firepower I've adopted to that play style. 

The army has only a few stand a fire elements. One Havok team and 2 "tactical" teams that are going to be my "hold the fort" The rest is meant to be cavalry or "Dragoon" style of fighting. I usually form along 2 to 3 spearheads. Each spearhead has a goal in mind, It may simply be to run around and pull units towards it before another army sidesteps and cirlces the enemy advance.

2 marine squads - 2 flamer, champ w/ power sword in rhino
2 marine squads - 2 melta, champ w/ powerfist in rhino
2 marine squads - missile/plasma
1 Raptor squad - 2 flamer champ w/ lightnight claws
1 raptor squad - 2 melta champ w/ powerfist
1 Havok - currently 4 las
1 Havok - undecided
1 Chosen - Rhino (unfinished, have bits to make it either 2 Lightning claw 3 melta, or 5 melta)
Lord - Thinking about Slaanesh - w/ Deamon weapon
2 Dread - Melta w/ flamer
1 LR
1 Pred las style
Termi (5) combi melta, hvy flamer/pf, 3 lightning claw
Termi (5) Combi melta, Reaper AC/pf, 3 Lightning claw
(those two units are not set in stone, Combi-melta happened to be spare bits that I had leftover as these are "scrap built" leftovers from various trades)

I have further unassembled bits, I tend to add 1-2 units at a time, that way I do not have a million projects half finished. (2 Termi lords, 1 normal lord in construction, At least one more Pred in a box somewhere, 12 bikes in various stages of conversion)

And for the record, for reasons that are my own, this army is not using Oblits, Defilers, possessed or summoned deamons. I'm basing them off of the older "relictors" where they used chaos to fight chaos, but in all essences are a "normal" marine chapter

*And Galahad, that was basically the advice style i was looking for - Great in X situation, not so good in Y situation, for these reasons*


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Yous seem to have the same style of squad in the raptors so I wouldn't see much point in going for an infantry version... maybe depending on which raptor squad you're using you can complement them with the opposing havok. Like the melta raptors and flamer havoks in the one list, with the raptors going after the vehicles and big boys, and the flamer squad destroying infantry that could stop their advance. One completely dedicated unit wouldn't be as effective as it would have serious trouble taking out certain units but use the two together and you will have a good plan.....


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

If you note I have alot of redundancy in the squad styles. This allows for one squad to pick up where another may have been unable to fill a role. With the non-dedicated transports, a rhino can be use elsewhere in a pinch. The Raptors fill the role of cavalry using their mobility to "plug" a flank or advance with the ability to ignore alot of terrain that the rhinos are going to have problems with.

This is a fighting style that has evolved for a while starting with my Salamanders. While most people design to "counter" many times the redundancy is enough to allow the ability to be able to lose a portion and still be a viable force. Yeah I may loose my Las, but by then you've allowed at least one element of my melta to get close. You may have concentrated on my rhinos, but you have left your own open to my stand and fire squads.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

always a back up unit with a similar role basically yeah??


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