# Word Bearers + Alpha Legion Vs. Ultramarines + Emperor's Children



## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

This is a pre-heresy intergalactic war

Scenario 1: Legion vs legion in intergalactic war
Scenario 2: Team one primarchs vs Team two primarchs in 2 vs 2 combat.

Team 1 Commanding general = Alpharius/Omegon - word bearers primarch is second in command of overall plans.

Team 2 commanding general = Ultramarines primarch, with Fulgrim as second in command, following ultramarines primarchs orders.

Setting:
1. Full legions, all resources such as pdf, vehicles, capital ships, forge worlds etc.

The world bearers primarch and Alpharius have teamed up to anihilate the opposing team. As have the ultramarines primarch and Fulgrim, to destroy their opposing team.

2. Each team gets there own sub sectors of the galaxy that is under their control, forge worlds, supply worlds, vehicles, recruitment worlds, etc. 

3. This is a intergalactic size war, where tactical and strategic accumen is accounted for, planetary warfare as well as capital ship to ship warfare in space.

4. The objective is to eliminate the opposing team by whatever means neccesary, either outright murdering, or asimilating them, turning them to your side, etc. 

5. All factors should be accounted for, such as supply lines, agricultural worlds to feed your soldiers, work force, piilots etc. Teams can choose to target these or capture them, morale is important as well.

6. Primarchs will be playing a very active role in this war, as their strategical and tactical styles will be what their legions employ. Teams can also choose to field their primarchs in direct warfare if they so choose to, as in on field soldiers or generals for a much needed push or key fight.

With all that stated, which team do you think will win? I'm inclined to think it could go either way.


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## Zhou The Maladjusted (Nov 25, 2010)

That's a whole lot of confusing in that post. You need to clean up your info.
Lorgar - Word Bearers, Guilliman - Ultramarines, Fulgrim - Emperor's Children, Alpharius/Omegon - Alpha Legion, and I don't know why Angron is mentioned.

That aside though, I would put my money on the Ultramarines and the Emperor's Children. The Ultramarines are the poster children of the Space Marines for a reason, and Guilliman did literally write the book on Astartes warfare. Then there's the Emperor's Children, a legion devoted to perfection in battle. Up till their fall to Chaos, they practiced perfection rather well.

On the other side you have the Word Bearers, one of the largest legions, but one of zealots and probably having less creative strategies. That doesn't go very well with the Alpha Legion's strategy. If I remember right, they focused on stealth, manipulation and confusion.

It really can go either way, but it seems more likely the Ultramarines and Emperor's Children would win.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Angron? I think you mean Fulgrim?

I would have to lean towards the Guilliman and the Emperor's Children in this one. Primarly because the amount of astartes and men Guilliman can muster can surpass any other legion's. 250,000 astartes and an extremely loyal system all to himself. Not to mention Fulgrim's accomplishments as well. Also, The Emperor's Children and the Ultramarines have a nice combination, which is perfection and tactic genius.

The other is a pretty good team. However, both Alpharius and Logar have different scheme abilities and I'm not sure how they would react to one another interfering with their legions. Logar uses loyalty and conversion while Alpharius uses deceit and infliteration. 

If the _The First Heretic_ showed me anything about the Ultramarines, it showed that though they follow the Imperial Way, they can go to extreme lengths to get out their message. I think that if the Alpha Legion tried to infliterate them, the Ultramarines would know how to take care of the situation.


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## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

I cleaned up the post, yes I meant fulgrim not angron, thank you =)

Also to help counter the conflicting combat donctrines, I included who is the commanding general of each team, who decides what plans are followed.

Alpharius/omegon for his, and Guilleman for his.


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## Helsreach (Jun 2, 2010)

Well I think the advantage of the Word bearers is they could rally their PDF to die in droves for them and the Alpha Legion could use spies and the like but it all depends on the preparation time they had but yea I can see that happening.

Also the Ultramarines advantage is kind cut as the Word Bearers have 100,000, the Alpha legion are at full strength whereas the Emperors Children had only just managed the numbers to act as a proper legion by the heresy. But the Word Bearers cults with the Alpha legion tactics could turn entire swathes of the galaxy against the Ultramarines and Emperors Childern. 

Still, they'd have to act fast because theirs is a long term game. But then again the Alpha legion picked the right ground and soundly beat the Ultramarines through their tactics. with the stoic fanaticism of the Word Bearers each planet taken would be riddled with rebellion and guerrilla warfare thanks to the Alpha Legion. 

Most of the captured planets would need an exterminatus to settle the populous down whilst he Word Bearers would be able to win over the hearts and minds of thousands if they didn't simply destroy it and move on.


Unconventional tactics could trump stratigic brillaince and with legions of willing to die mortals, I think this would make matters easier.


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## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

I tried to balance the number issues, with legions and making it pre-heresy.

The ultramarines are the largest with around 220,000-250,000 and they are paired with the EC who are the smallest legion.

The word bearers are the second largest legion, whose exact size I do know, I've heard anywhere from 120,000 to 180,000. And they are paired with the alpha legion who is a full strength legion, and if they are larger then the ravenguard who was noted as being one of the smallest at 80,000, I imagine the AL to be anywhere from 100,000 to 150,000.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The Word Bearers are the 2nd largest Legion at 100,000 strong, the Emperor's Children are one of the smallest Legions but even so they'd still be at least 10,000-12,000 strong.

Basically the Ultramarines alone are far larger than any other 2 Legions put together- personally I think the Ultramarines could take both the Word Bearers and Alpha Legion without the EC's aid, but with it I don't see any hope for the WB and AL team up.


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## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

Where was it stated the wb are 100k? I read the ravenguard were one of the smaller legions at 80k strong, I would have assumed that the wb being the second largest would be more then 100k.


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## Raptor_00 (Mar 17, 2008)

Easy, Word Bearers and Alpha Legion win. 

Why, because the Word Bearers have whispered in the ear of Fulgrim. The Alpha Legion has produced false information showing that the Ultramarines mean to turn on the Emperors Children.

When the Emperors Children and Ultramarines land planet side to take a defensive position before the arrival of the Word Bearers and Alpha Legion, the Emperors Children ships open fire on the Ultramarines.

The Ultramarines are confused and disoriented do to this turn of events. The arrival of the Alpha Legion first decimates the Ultramarine fleet in orbit. The Word Bearers arrive last and land massive troops on the ground. With space held, the Alpha Legion pursue any ships that escaped. The Word Bearers and Emperors Children destroy the ground forces.
With the ground held all 3 legions begin to systematically hunt the remaining Ultramarines until someone gets the bright idea to attack the Emperor.
Basically, the heresy happens again in a different fashion.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Really Raptor? so introduce an entirely baseless scenario eh? 

Ok, the Ultramarines win, since they are the largest legion they must have the largest fleet. therefore they bombard the crap out of the planet. And kill everything lurking there. Instant Ultra-win. 

Sucks, doesnt it?


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## Raptor_00 (Mar 17, 2008)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> Really Raptor? so introduce an entirely baseless scenario eh?
> 
> Ok, the Ultramarines win, since they are the largest legion they must have the largest fleet. therefore they bombard the crap out of the planet. And kill everything lurking there. Instant Ultra-win.
> 
> Sucks, doesnt it?


Uhhhh, no.....
If you look at my army you will notice who I would always root for....regardless

Also, since the armies get everything at their disposal, Alpha Legion and Word Bearers would both work behind the scenes to win. The greatest feats of both legions is the behind the scenes work they do to ensure victory before the battle even begins. So both would obviously use "smoke and mirrors" to achieve victory.
If they just went head to head, yeah Smurfs will win as they have more resources. But that does not play to the advantages the legions.
Remember, the Word Bearers were the greatest single driving force to push Horus to Chaos. They would do the same thing again in this simulated battlefield.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

This is Pre heresy. that could mean prior to the Emp telling off Lorgar, so no chaotic influence. Just insane imperial loyalt. Which if your logical about would probably work against the Alpha legion, considering the fact that Guillemen was essentially the emperors right hand, and Fulgrim was one of his most favoured (only legion to bear the Aquila)

So going by Lorgar's fanatical loyalty, it seems more likely he would side with Guillemen.


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## Raptor_00 (Mar 17, 2008)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> This is Pre heresy. that could mean prior to the Emp telling off Lorgar, so no chaotic influence. Just insane imperial loyalt. Which if your logical about would probably work against the Alpha legion, considering the fact that Guillemen was essentially the emperors right hand, and Fulgrim was one of his most favoured (only legion to bear the Aquila)
> 
> So going by Lorgar's fanatical loyalty, it seems more likely he would side with Guillemen.


It was never specified in the initial scenario about when before the heresy this battle occurs. My scenario happens after Lorgar has a falling out with the Emperor.
If it is before that time, then there is little reason for the 4(5) brothers to be fighting at all. So, the taint of Chaos is almost implied in the scenario.

Otherwise the scenario would sound more like:
Ultramarines and Emperors Children land on a planet to make preparations, the Alpha Legion arrives and hides in the gravity wells of the most distant planet. The Word Bearers fleet arrives and makes planet fall. The primarchs all have tea.
It's less dramatic but would make more sense for a pre taint of chaos.


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## Zhou The Maladjusted (Nov 25, 2010)

It's a completely hypothetical situation Raptor. If it were during the Heresy, the Emperor's Children would not be working with the Ultramarines. The question is; If these two forces went at each other at the state they were in before the Horus Heresy, who would win the battle?

Even so, your earlier scenario of the Emperor's Children turning like that isn't impossible, but Fulgrim and his legion only turned because of daemonic influence on Fulgrim and corruption of certain high ranking figures, like Bile, so there are chances Fulgrim would manage to resist Lorgar's taint.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Jerushee said:


> Where was it stated the wb are 100k? I read the ravenguard were one of the smaller legions at 80k strong, I would have assumed that the wb being the second largest would be more then 100k.


Horus Heresy: Collected Visions originally said that the Word Bearers were not much over 100,000 in size (this being the same book that said the Ultramarines were 250,000 strong) and then The First Heretic confirmed the number of the legion to be 100,000.

Whilst it's been stated that the Raven Guard were roughly 80,000 strong at their height, where is it stated they were one of the smaller Legions? I know the Emperor's Children and the Thousand Sons were the smallest Legions and the Salamanders weren't an overly large Legion but I checked Index Astartes and it doesn't mention anything about the Raven Guard being overly large or small.

I think 80,000 was probably about the upper range for most Legions, the WB would have had a 25% increase in numbers compared to the RG which is a significant amount, just no where near the UM is all.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Basically the Ultramarines alone are far larger than any other 2 Legions put together- personally I think the Ultramarines could take both the Word Bearers and Alpha Legion without the EC's aid, but with it I don't see any hope for the WB and AL team up.


I agree with this. I was going to say, the Ultramarines could probably take on both of them, but I didn't want to sound like I was in favor of them. The truth is, they almost have the number of three legions, and have great amounts of man power from their system.



Baron Spikey said:


> Whilst it's been stated that the Raven Guard were roughly 80,000 strong at their height, where is it stated they were one of the smaller Legions? I know the Emperor's Children and the Thousand Sons were the smallest Legions and the Salamanders weren't an overly large Legion but I checked Index Astartes and it doesn't mention anything about the Raven Guard being overly large or small.


The source you seek is _Raven's Flight_. I'm pretty sure you may find it in the part where Corax is explaining how he came with to the planet with a certain amount of astartes and is leaving with so few.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> The source you seek is _Raven's Flight_. I'm pretty sure you may find it in the part where Corax is explaining how he came with to the planet with a certain amount of astartes and is leaving with so few.


And he describes his Legion at it's peak as being one of the smaller ones?

I've not listened to any of the BL audio books so correct me if I'm wrong...
maybe the majority of the Legions were very similar in size with a gap of about 10,000 between the smallest (excluding the Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons, and Salamanders) and the largest (excluding the Word Bearers and Ultramarines)- that way the Raven Guard may have simply been the smallest Legion of the 'core 13', it's the only way I can think of that incorporates all the data we have without invalidating anything.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> And he describes his Legion at it's peak as being one of the smaller ones?
> 
> I've not listened to any of the BL audio books so correct me if I'm wrong...
> maybe the majority of the Legions were very similar in size with a gap of about 10,000 between the smallest (excluding the Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons, and Salamanders) and the largest (excluding the Word Bearers and Ultramarines)- that way the Raven Guard may have simply been the smallest Legion of the 'core 13', it's the only way I can think of that incorporates all the data we have without invalidating anything.


Yes, in fact I'm pretty sure he even goes as far as saying he has the second smallest legion. I will listen to it and either EDIT it confirmed or mislead after I listen to that part again in a bit. I remember ABD talking about the number. I think that the Iron Warriors for example are described as having no more than 15,000 astartes, and I'm pretty sure it was in the context of having one of the bigger legions. I might even make a second thread for this matter.


EDIT: Confirmed, the Raven Guard numbered 80,000 and came out of Istvaan with only 3000. Mislead, I couldn't find anything that they were the second smallest legion. The audio describes: 



"their legions were larger than his. Their Terrain forces bolsted by populace home planets. Deliverance lacked...." you get the idea.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Ah so we fall prey to the idea where the various authors separate into 'Small/Large Legion' camps- ADB seems to be in the 'large' Legion camp along with Gav Thorpe and _Horus Heresy: Collected Visions_.


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## Krymson86 (Nov 9, 2010)

I'd actually say that Alpha Legion and Word Bearers would win as a result of having 3 Primarchs, Alpharius, his twin Omegian, and Lorgar. I think Ultras and EC would get the better of the fleet battles, but eventually it would end up on the ground and 3 Primarchs > 2. 

At least I think so,lol.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

But on the ground, the size of the legions means that 1 primarch will not make a telling differance. The UM outnumber both opposing legions combined by several thousand, not even counting the EC. Something tells me 1 extra primarch will kill what amounts to around 100k marines. (assuming in this hypothetical scenario its full strength vs. full strength)


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Ultramarine victory easily, even if Emperors Children don't do much really. The extra 100K Space Marines combined with the fact the Gullimen is supposed to be the most tactically astute Primarch. It's a straight up fight, there's no duplicity to be had on the Alpha Legions part. You can be as cunning as you like, doesn't matter then you're planets are all burning wastelands.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I wouldn't underestimate Alpharius and Omegon so much. The levels of deceit, infiltration, spy networks and manipulations are unrivaled. They soundly beat Guilliman on Eskador. The Alpha Legion would very much pick their fights very carefully, they woulnd't be suckered in to fighting the whole UM legion, could easily see them taking it apart bit by bit whilst Lorgar and the WB's take the brunt of the fighting.

An sure the UM may number up to 250,000 marines, but combine the two others and your looking at almost 200,000 along with the vast network of cults


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

You're looking at more like 150,000 between the WB and Alpha Legion. The only problem with assuming the deceit and trickery will work is that it makes the assumption that Guilliman is stupid. He is not, he is one of the greatest military leaders the universe has ever seen. It doesn't matter what you think of the Ultramarines etc that is just a fact from the Fluff. Alpha Legion beat the Ultra's after Guilliman had killed Alpharius (Again purely fluffwise, like it or not Guilliman killed Alpharius) but they didn't not win as such as Guilliman bombarded the planet from orbit. 

It's been shown you can trick Guilliman if he doesn't know you're his enemy, as Horus did, but in a straight up fight Guilliman has a supreme tactical and strategic ability. As when he defeated the World Bearers.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Krymson86 said:


> I'd actually say that Alpha Legion and Word Bearers would win as a result of having 3 Primarchs, Alpharius, his twin Omegian, and Lorgar. I think Ultras and EC would get the better of the fleet battles, but eventually it would end up on the ground and 3 Primarchs > 2.
> 
> At least I think so,lol.


The only account informing us about Alpharius Omegon (being twins), also tells us that they collectively are a single Primarch, not two. 

Therefore the Alpha Legion have a single Primarch, not two.



Aramoro said:


> Alpha Legion beat the Ultra's after Guilliman had killed Alpharius (Again purely fluffwise, like it or not Guilliman killed Alpharius) but they didn't not win as such as Guilliman bombarded the planet from orbit.


Alpharius' 'death' is how the Alpha Legion beat the Ultramarines. The Ultramarines, for all their tactical expertise failed to recognise that the Alpha Legion would operate no differently without a command structure. 

And also, I would like to know where you got the idea that Guilliman killing Alpharius is anything more than a doubtful theory with no supporting evidence.



Aramoro said:


> It's been shown you can trick Guilliman if he doesn't know you're his enemy, as Horus did, but in a straight up fight Guilliman has a supreme tactical and strategic ability. As when he defeated the World Bearers.


Guilliman is a master tactician, certainly one of the ablest among the Primarch brotherhood. But to automatically assume he is the 'best' is misleading and unsupported. His tactical acumen was at odds with Alpharius', but that by no means equates to it being superior and vice versa.

Alpharius showed that he could tactically out-wit Guilliman, if the account (apparently from an Ultramarine Captain) regarding the Battle of Eskrador is accurate.

As for the OT:

Numerically, the Ultramarines and Emperor's Children would number ~260,000. And the Word Bearers and Alpha Legion perhaps ~180,000. A significant numerical superiority but not one that would be automatically conclusive.

The Word Bearers and Alpha Legion shouldn't be written off simply because of said numerical advantage, nor because of Guilliman's tactical expertise. Alpharius is arguably the match of Guilliman's tactical acumen, just as Guilliman is arguably the match of Alpharius'.

A sign of what the Word Bearers could contribute can be seen from _The First Heretic_. When they dedicated themselves to the Great Crusade (post-Monarchia) they conquered more and forced more compliances than any other Legion, including Horus' Luna Wolves. This in itself shows their vast combat ability.

Ultimately I think the scenario is totally inconclusive, it's impossible to know or even deduce who would triumph. It's ultimately going to come down to individual perspective and bias.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

I think that if Alpharius/Omegon or Lorgar could somehow get to Fulgrim and play on his inferiority complex, then they could make him do something stupid that could compromise his side. 250,000 vs 10,000. Talk about legion envy.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> You're looking at more like 150,000 between the WB and Alpha Legion. The only problem with assuming the deceit and trickery will work is that it makes the assumption that Guilliman is stupid. He is not, he is one of the greatest military leaders the universe has ever seen. It doesn't matter what you think of the Ultramarines etc that is just a fact from the Fluff. Alpha Legion beat the Ultra's after Guilliman had killed Alpharius (Again purely fluffwise, like it or not Guilliman killed Alpharius) but they didn't not win as such as Guilliman bombarded the planet from orbit.
> 
> It's been shown you can trick Guilliman if he doesn't know you're his enemy, as Horus did, but in a straight up fight Guilliman has a supreme tactical and strategic ability. As when he defeated the World Bearers.


150,000? How do you figure that. The Word Bearers were at 100,000 and the Alpha Legion were a full sized legion which we can gauge at around 80-90,000. And like CotE said, you shouldn't automatically write off the fight due to numerical difference. Time after time after time in our history small numbers have despite the odds come out victorious, and its happened plenty of times in 40k when the force have been much more outnumbered than this scenario.

And Guilliman was brilliant yes, but all the Primarchs were. The Lion, Horus, Dorn, all raked up just as many victories if not more than him, and the rest of them no doubt would make the same or more if they had the numbers the UM had. At no point in any of the fluff does it specifcally state Guilliman was the greatest leader as a fact. You may think he is, but thats your opinion. I'm not saying he isnt brilliant, but you seem to entirely disregard the others in his favour. And purely fluffwise the account of Guilliman killing Alpharius is so highly doubted by everyone including the Ultramarines themselves that its much more likely that Guilliman didn't actually kill Alpharius at all. Hell the Inquisitor who presented the case of the battle turned out to be a member of the Order of the Hydra anyway. 

And even then he still got his ass thoroughly kicked by the Alpha Legion, they defeated him at every possible turn to the point he had to make a full retreat. Again like CotE said, Alpharius/Omegon were just as tactically gifted as Guilliman, although in an entirely different way, one in which he could not comprehend or adapt to, where as they clearly showed that they were able to outthink him tactically and strategically on Eskador.

How does tricking Guilliman have anything to do with this? It's arguably also been shown you can trick all of the primarchs when they think your allied to them, i'm failing to see the relevance of that statement. It's also been shown that Guilliman can be defeated in a straight up fight despite what you say, namely Eskador and when he was killed by Fulgrim


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> 150,000? How do you figure that. The Word Bearers were at 100,000 and the Alpha Legion were a full sized legion which we can gauge at around 80-90,000. And like CotE said, you shouldn't automatically write off the fight due to numerical difference. Time after time after time in our history small numbers have despite the odds come out victorious, and its happened plenty of times in 40k when the force have been much more outnumbered than this scenario.
> 
> And Guilliman was brilliant yes, but all the Primarchs were. The Lion, Horus, Dorn, all raked up just as many victories if not more than him, and the rest of them no doubt would make the same or more if they had the numbers the UM had. At no point in any of the fluff does it specifcally state Guilliman was the greatest leader as a fact. You may think he is, but thats your opinion. I'm not saying he isnt brilliant, but you seem to entirely disregard the others in his favour. And purely fluffwise the account of Guilliman killing Alpharius is so highly doubted by everyone including the Ultramarines themselves that its much more likely that Guilliman didn't actually kill Alpharius at all. Hell the Inquisitor who presented the case of the battle turned out to be a member of the Order of the Hydra anyway.
> 
> ...


Except of course, as you've pointed out, the validity of the Eskador campaign has to be called into question- you've pointed out Guilliman might not have defeated Alpharius, well there's just as much chance the Alpha Legion didn't actually beat the Ultramarines.

You can't claim part of the account is doubtful then use the rest as a basis for your argument, it's all dubious or none of it is.

Guilliman was one of the 3 Primarchs that Horus was most concerned about, and worked hardest to prevent from interfering with his plans during the Heresy (the other 2 being the Lion and Sanguinius), he was renowned as being one of the most brilliant generals of the Emperor's Sons- again alongside the Lion- as well as willing to be innovative with his tactics when necessity called for it.
Plus it wasn't just his number of victories that marked him as one of the premier statesmen but the fact the world's he did bring to compliance were left vastly stronger and more productive than before the Ultramarines arrived.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Except of course, as you've pointed out, the validity of the Eskador campaign has to be called into question- you've pointed out Guilliman might not have defeated Alpharius, well there's just as much chance the Alpha Legion didn't actually beat the Ultramarines.


I'm pretty sure the Ultramarines retreated after assuming that killing Alpharius would end the battle



Baron Spikey said:


> You can't claim part of the account is doubtful then use the rest as a basis for your argument, it's all dubious or none of it is.


The only doubtful part of that event was Gulliman killing Alpharius.



Baron Spikey said:


> Guilliman was one of the 3 Primarchs that Horus was most concerned about, and worked hardest to prevent from interfering with his plans during the Heresy (the other 2 being the Lion and Sanguinius), he was renowned as being one of the most brilliant generals of the Emperor's Sons- again alongside the Lion- as well as willing to be innovative with his tactics when necessity called for it.


Obviously he wasn't worried about Alpharius because he was on his side (though I don't know how Horus would ever trust him seeing as how deceit and secrecy is ingrained in his DNA)


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed i was under the impression that Eskador most certainly did happen and the Ultramarines were soundly beaten, its just the validity of Alpharius being killed which comes to question.

I don't deny Guilliman was a brilliant leader, but the other Primarchs were just as dangerous to Horus cause. I still believe that almost any of the primarchs were given numbers equal to the UM than they would have been just as succesful, the fact that the likes of the Lion, Horus and Dorn didn't need vast numbers to do aswell if not better than him speaks more than words imo.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The only doubtful part of that event was Gulliman killing Alpharius.





Angel of Blood said:


> Indeed i was under the impression that Eskador most certainly did happen and the Ultramarines were soundly beaten, its just the validity of Alpharius being killed which comes to question.


The entire account is doubtful. It was 'discovered' (as an account apparently from the perspective of an Ultramarines captain) by Inquisitor Kravin who is now heavily suspected to be an Alpha Legion operative. It's widely considered now to merely be a ploy by the Alpha Legion to plant misinformation in Imperial records.



Angel of Blood said:


> I don't deny Guilliman was a brilliant leader, but the other Primarchs were just as dangerous to Horus cause. I still believe that almost any of the primarchs were given numbers equal to the UM than they would have been just as succesful, the fact that the likes of the Lion, Horus and Dorn didn't need vast numbers to do aswell if not better than him speaks more than words imo.


Personally, I think the main reason Horus went to such extents to place Guilliman, Jonson and Sanguinius in a position so they were unable to interfere in the Heresy (aside from the sheer power (and size in the Ultramarines case) of their Legions) was because of they're percieved utter loyalty to the Emperor.

Remember, Horus assumed that most of the other Primarchs would eventually renounce their ties to the Emperor and join him, Ferrus Manus and the Khan being two prime examples.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The entire account is doubtful. It was 'discovered' (as an account apparently from the perspective of an Ultramarines captain) by Inquisitor Kravin who is now heavily suspected to be an Alpha Legion operative. It's widely considered now to merely be a ploy by the Alpha Legion to plant misinformation in Imperial records.


Yes the account of the battle from said Ultramarines perspective was said to be suspect, but i was still under the impression that Eskrador very much happened and was a Alpha Legion victory. The account mainly details the spearhead fight the UM did or didn't do. But the battle as a whole was true


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Yes the account of the battle from said Ultramarines perspective was said to be suspect


And that's the only account of the battle we have.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Eskrador and the result is all kind of fruit of the poisonous tree as it were. Nothing to say there are not facts in there but it's all tainted. There's no way to say Guilliman did not kill Alpharius and still say that the Alpha Legion beat the Ultramarines. 

Horus feared Guilliman enough to use his position as Warmaster to send them away, where the Ultramarines met and defeated the World Bearers. Now could the Ultras combined with the Emperors Children defeat World Bearers and Alpha Legion? I would think yes. Alpha Legion suffers from incredible hubris, always taking the hardest solution to any problem. That is not tactical genius, it's foolishness, especially when facing much greater numbers lead by one of the greatest generals in the Imperium.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

It is never said Horus 'feared' Guilliman, especially not in the sense your saying it. It was simply the most logical way to deal with a legion the size of the UM. He knew Guilliman wouldn't turn from the Emperor, so sent him far away like some of the other legions so that they coulnd't interfere.

The Alpha Legion do not always take the hardest route at all. They take the route that will ensure them a solid and total victory with minimal casualties in the process. This is the exact sort of approach needed to defeat the UM or Legion. Plan all the battles out no matter how long it will take, make sure everything is going in your favour, have a network of spies and infiltrators set up to disrupt the enemy and a whole host of other things before attacking, to make sure the victory is assured. That is tactical brilliance, able to plan the long game in such a way.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think Guilliman would basically state something similar to "Marshal Law" in which he wouldn't allow communication with his and Fulgrim's worlds to other peoples from other worlds. 

Therefore preventing conversion or infliteration from the Word Bearers and Alpha Legion. If worst came to worst, Guilliman would probably do something similar to what he did in the beginning of _The First Heretic_, destroy the cities and round up the people. This would probably scare the people even more. 

Perhaps not to the extent, but when I think about this tactic, I can't help but think about the German tactics when invading Belgium. Basically targeting civilians and using fear that if they didn't help the Germans by pointing out the culprits/rebels who were against them, they and or their families would pay the price. 

I think in a similar instance the Ultramarines would scare the civilians into spotting out those who were against them or else pay the consequences by losing their homes at the very least.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Alpha Legion are famous for doing things the ridiculous way, letting their enemies dig in and fortify so they can have more of a challenge in defeating them. They did that explicitly to make it harder for themselves, no other reason.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> Alpha Legion are famous for doing things the ridiculous way, letting their enemies dig in and fortify so they can have more of a challenge in defeating them. They did that explicitly to make it harder for themselves, no other reason.


That was to prove a point, there is no basis to suggest Alpharius always employed such tactics. In fact if anything _Legion_ suggests otherwise.


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