# Playing Word Bearers After 'First Heretic'



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey everyone.

We all know just how powerful a good Black Library/Horus Heresy novel can be in terms of people creating new armies. We have to look no further than the author of _First Heretic_, A-D-B's excellent _Soul Hunter_ and how alot of people wanted to create their own Night Lord's armies.

But what effect do you think _The First Heretic_ has had for newer players, and those that already play Word Bearers armies?

Personally I doubt the book would encourage many people to start up their own WB's army, and for those that already play them, it must be a bit of a kick in the balls. Your Primarch is a b*tch (lol I know it is much deeper than that, don't bother explaining, I'm just talking about cool factor) and the Legion itself, whilst very interesting, just doesn't come out as particularly awesome.

So what do you all think? Would it encourage people to play Word Bearers and if you already play them how do you feel after reading it?


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## Engindeer (Dec 1, 2010)

In the end I think it's up to those Black Library readers, who love to model, but doesn't necessarily play with their armies. I've seen far more pre-heresy armies made for hobby / display, than meant for TT. 

The awesome looking ones that actually get to see tableplay, are in the minority if you ask me - And they usually tend to be the very popular legions, first and foremost Space Wolves, and to a lesser degree The Emperor's Children and The Thousand Sons.

A TT player with a PH word bearers army would have to have read The Horus Heresy, Be a crazy hobbyist / modeller AND play with his army - as I said, it's been done before, but sparringly, and with an army who's 'not particularly awesome' in fluff, would it be worth the endeavour?


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## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

I think Logar did a excellent job in combating Corax, it is not as one sided as some may believe it was. Logar who never trained in melee combat or with weapons (his mace was gifted to him), fought Corax who in several old dwarf articles was described as being one of the three to best Horus in melee combat, as well as in Ravenflight as being described as one of the top melee fighters of the primarchs. The fight did result in Logar nearly dying, however Logar in the process shattered one of Corax's lightening claws (hand/arm), and completely destroyed his nose/face with a massive head butt strike. On the other hand Corax did evicerate his torso with multiple strikes rending upward resulting in his organs spiling out, however aside from all that, Logar did a great job with keeping in mind he never trained for combat.

Logar was an envisionist, not a general or warrior.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

My point is, IMO, _The First Heretic_, doesn't leave you with the 'wow factor' of _Soul Hunter _or the _Word Bearers Trilogy_. I don't think you would rush out and start collecting a Word Bearers army. 

I'd be interested to hear from some current Word Bearers players about how they feel about the origins of their legion?

I mean the story itself was great for the most part (one of the Top 5 in the series for sure) but the Legion isn't badass awesome like the Thousand Sons, Luna Wolves etc from other works.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I always wanted a EC army and after reading Fulgrim I made one. I know alot of people made IW armies after Strom of Iron. I never seen a Alpha Legion or Night Lord army. Seen tons of WBs before first Heretic, DG becuase PMs are so good in game, TS for those Tzeentch die hards, and too many WEs armies to count. I myself perfer Red Corsairs and waiting for a Huron book to come out.


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## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

I prefer a luthor's dark angels, with fielding a cypher.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Hell, I think ADB did a fantastic job. The purpose of the story was to portray Lorgar and the WB`s side of the Heresy tale, not to make them look awesome or encourage new players, just to _tell the story_. 

The fact that he was so less-than-legendary in his portrayal of the legion has earned my respect. It gives them more depth, shows their flaws and, in my view at least, goes a long way in justifying their actions.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> I always wanted a EC army and after reading Fulgrim I made one. I know alot of people made IW armies after Strom of Iron. I never seen a Alpha Legion or Night Lord army. Seen tons of WBs before first Heretic, DG becuase PMs are so good in game, TS for those Tzeentch die hards, and too many WEs armies to count. I myself perfer Red Corsairs and waiting for a Huron book to come out.


Fulgrim got me psyched to get EC (which I currently started colelcting seriously) and FotE + Cadian Blood got me into some Plague Marines. So thats my mix of Traitor Legionaires. I was at the beginning though deicing whether or not to start an WB (after the trology about them) or Alpha Legion because I love their color schemes but there are so little about them fluff-wise. IW, NL and WE I never liked before but IW have started to grow into being accepted and NL I love after Soul Hunter. WE though I still have a problem with.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

My chaos army was originally made to be word bearers as they inspired me as a truly religiously zealous chaos army whose people truly believed in the wonders of chaos and were the first to believe.

When I heard that Lorgar was portrayed as a fool who was deceived into believing in chaos, it was a huge slap in the face. It was bad enough when horus was portrayed in this way, but having lorgar portrayed in the same way was tool much.

I haven't even read the book because of that.

Dark Apostle is a great word bearers book and does a terrific job of showing what they are all about.

I really couldn't care about whether or not Lorgar is a strong fighter. What I can't put up with is that he did not choose freely to follow chaos, and instead was tricked. I hate having to think of erebus and not lorgar as the ultimate instigator of chaos.


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> I always wanted a EC army and after reading Fulgrim I made one. I know alot of people made IW armies after Strom of Iron. I never seen a *Alpha Legion *or Night Lord army. Seen tons of WBs before first Heretic, DG becuase PMs are so good in game, TS for those Tzeentch die hards, and too many WEs armies to count. I myself perfer Red Corsairs and waiting for a Huron book to come out.


Wrong, there is a 99.99% chance that any army you face will secretly be Alpha Legion in disguise, however, there is also an equal chance that your own army is also Alpha Legion in disguise!


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Eleven said:


> When I heard that Lorgar was portrayed as a fool who was deceived into believing in chaos, it was a huge slap in the face. It was bad enough when horus was portrayed in this way, but having lorgar portrayed in the same way was tool much.


Then we read different books. Lorgar wasn't deceived, in fact he received a fine tour of the Eye of Chaos and its myriad horrors before making his final decision to turn. He was tutored in Chaos on Cadia, and he knowingly committed human sacrifice to aid Ingethel in her ascension to Daemon Prince. I would not call those things the acts of somebody who has been _deceived_.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I would say Lorgar was deceived. Kor Phaeron had already turned his back on the Emperor and wouldn't be happy until the man he considered _his_ son and noone else's, was following the path he had decided was the right one. 
Just look at how Lorgar reacts to what Kor has been doing, leaving pockets of possibly Chaos-tainted cults on so-called compliant worlds. Lorgar is appalled and shocked at this, moreso when Erebus joins in.
The tour of the Eye that Lorgar gets is the one that is tailored best to appeal to his philosophical standpoint on gods and worship; even after all of this he still isn't convinced that he can do this to Humanity. For all the Lorgar believes that if gods exist then they must be worshipped, the 'horror' (his own word) makes him think twice about what he is to do. What propels him on is the fact that, in my opinion, Lorgar is the perfect prophet. He is not a leader of his own convictions, but the coneyor of convictions given to him by one he considers powerful enough to be called a 'god'.
I see the WB themselves as true zealots, followers of what they feel is right, lead by those who think what they are doing is the only way. I feel sorry for Lorgar. He truly hasn't thought things through, even when he is allowing Kor Phaeron and Erebus to set-up the demise of the Imperium. It's only when he actually sees, right in front of him, what his acceptance of these plans entails that he suddenly realises what he has allowed to happen. I can only imagine what he feels now, so far in the future. Daemonhood might be his, but is it something he wants, or a refuge from what he has done? Could he not have changed his mind, or at least truthfully thought about it, rather than blindly ignoring everything he was told and asked just so he could be proved right? So he found what he thought were gods. Are they really? The Warp Powers are truly powerful, but dependent on sentient beings. If we control them, even indirectly, then can it be truly said that they are in charge and are directing us? Maybe if the Emperor's plans had been allowed to unfold Humanity, at least, would have been able to remove itself from the influence of Chaos.
One last thing. Daemons lie.

GFP


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## Angelus Censura (Oct 11, 2010)

In my opinion, he was guided towards what he was already seeking, not tricked into seeking it. His thirst for knowledge was the main driving force behind his hunt for Chaos. Not to mention his need for a deity of worship. All of his energy was initially directed towards worshiping the Emperor, and preaching him as a god to the worlds he visited and brought to compliance. After the Emporer shut this down, he needed a "rebound" if you will, something else to fall back on, some type of god or gods that he could continue to focus energy into worshipping. Kor Phaeron was manipulative, but I think it also came down to Lorgar simply needing that deity, and that need was probably seeded in him as a child by the gods of Chaos in their revenge for the Emperor turning his back on them, after they helped create the Primarchs. As there is no fluff to strongly dispute the claims of Ingethel, I take what she had to say as fact - and may also be swayed by my love for Chaos


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Just look at the daemonic manipulation of Magnus. At the time, Lorgar and his Legion were ripe for hearing of any weakness or wrongdoings of the Emperor. Willing ears will listen to what they want to hear. They were ready to believe the worst, which is what they were told.
For all we know, the daemon's words contain some, none, or all of the truth. It might be that what Ingethel said is true. It might be that the Emperor did ask for help from the Warp Powers, who now regret allowing it and want to stop what he's doing. It might have been that the Emperor didn't need to ask but was powerful enough to demand such help, and now those forced to provide it aren't happy and are looking to sabotage it. It might be that the Emperor didn't ask at all but just used his knowledge of the warp, but the Warp Powers have decided that this was tantamount to asking for knowledge/help.
Until we get some more of an idea of the personal history of the Emperor, we won't ever know what the real story is. Of all of the participants on the forging of the Imperium, te Emperor os by far the most mysterious.Thing is, I doubt anybody could ever write a book that had him as the main character; how could you possibly bring such a character to life without making him so much less than what he could/should be?

GFP


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## Angelus Censura (Oct 11, 2010)

What we really need then, is a Heresy book written in the form of a Biography of the Emperor - from childhood to current standings. Could even be a new series


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

#1 Rule - daemons lie

Why trust anything they have to say regarding alleged debts the Emperor owes the Chaos Gods?


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Just for everyones info.

It would be very rare that a Daemon would outright lie. Instead what they do is offer up various degrees of the truth that are altered in such a way as to suit their purposes.

If they lied completely they would be easy to ignore and/or disbelieve. Instead, it's much harder to pick through *their* version of the truth.


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## Angelus Censura (Oct 11, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> Just for everyones info.
> 
> It would be very rare that a Daemon would outright lie. Instead what they do is offer up various degrees of the truth that are altered in such a way as to suit their purposes.
> 
> If they lied completely they would be easy to ignore and/or disbelieve. Instead, it's much harder to pick through *their* version of the truth.


Well putk:


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## Scholtae (Aug 16, 2010)

The First Heretic didn't inspire me to collect a word bearers army but I now respect them a lot more than I used to, but the true genius of that book was in the Corax vs Logar showdown because Logar new Corax would kill him and didn't care, and the last stand of the Custodes their last line was brilliant.


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## fiveofnin (Oct 12, 2008)

i have not finished first First Heretic or any other wordbearer book. i started playing them in 3.5 when we had a great dex and i strive to keep with the idea of the wordbearers with deamons. As great as other books have made other chaptars what i like was that with first heretic that it made a titan feel more human. sure they are meant to be the greatest of warriors but we do forget that they are human. they are rased as anyone here on earth can be. As great as these books are it comapres none to making your own.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

I have to say, _First Heretic_ just made me think even less of the Emperor's parenting skills. It didn't really make me want to start Word Bearers. However, _Legion_ very much made me want to start Alpha Legion when the new dex comes out. And then I started reading the Word Bearers Omnibus....

Now I don't know which to do! Alpha Legion are going to be sneaky bastards, and with lots of Renegade IG to back them up(according to rumors) which sounds really cool! But... But daemons! Possessed CSM, crazy awesome dreadnaughts, embracing the warp and Chaos to the point where it doesn't just outright kill you but instead sides with you. That sounds really awesome. Bah, I'll just have to see which rules I like more to decide once it's closer to the release date.


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## Apfeljunge (May 1, 2011)

Eleven said:


> When I heard that Lorgar was portrayed as a fool who was deceived into believing in chaos, it was a huge slap in the face. It was bad enough when horus was portrayed in this way, but having lorgar portrayed in the same way was tool much.
> 
> I haven't even read the book because of that.
> 
> ...


You should really really read that book. Lorgar knew what he was getting into. Sure Kor Phaeron has some influence on him as his mentor but in the end Lorgar chose Chaos because he thought that even a religion of evil was a lesser evil than no religion at all. He was not deceived. At least not nearly on the scale Horus, Fulgrim and Magnus were.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think it portrayed the Word Bearers in a better light. Now they are a legion "that could have been" probably the Greatest of the Emperor's legion. 

Before it was more like... Lorgar is a bitch, his men are deceptive rats, and he was just an angry little boy that never got what he wanted.

Now we know, we was publicly humiliated in front of the entire Imperium. And Lorgar turned because he was enlightened by the truth, which in the end leads him to destroy the lie which was his father.

It makes players want to play this legion because instead of a legion that is almost cowardly and sneaky, the Word Bearers have become a legion that has been portrayed as one trying to get lost honor that was stolen from them.


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## Hrolleif (Jan 29, 2012)

Apfeljunge said:


> You should really really read that book. Lorgar knew what he was getting into. Sure Kor Phaeron has some influence on him as his mentor but in the end Lorgar chose Chaos because he thought that even a religion of evil was a lesser evil than no religion at all. He was not deceived. At least not nearly on the scale Horus, Fulgrim and Magnus were.


Well put. I agree with others that the humiliation suffered at Monarchia must have been unbearable, and coupled with Kor Phaeron's duplicity it made for an almost inevitable end. However, Lorgar still had a choice and he chose chaos.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I think it portrayed the Word Bearers in a better light. Now they are a legion "that could have been" probably the Greatest of the Emperor's legion.
> 
> Before it was more like... Lorgar is a bitch, his men are deceptive rats, and he was just an angry little boy that never got what he wanted.
> 
> ...


Excellent argument. I hadn't really considered it that way before.

I kind of thought th WB's got a bad deal with their Horus Heresy book, and where actually alot cooler in the Wordbearers Series by Anthony Reynolds, but you've made me re-think A-D-B's portrayal of them.



I think some people (myself included) were a little suprised by how Lorgar was portrayed, although in my own opinion, the book loses alot of momentum during the second half when Lorgar is interviewing the possessed marine.

I guess on my first reading it seemed Lorgar was being lead around by the nose by Kor Phareon and Erebus and the fact he was weak in combat (compared to other Primarch's) kind of disgusted me at first.

I understand that he wasn't supposed to be an Angron or Russ, but when Night Haunter verbally assaults him during the battle for Istavan, Lorgar went way down the pecking order of cool lol.




In saying that, Cyrene is still one of my favourite Black Library human characters of all time.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

I feel that the WB were portrayed very well by both ADB and Anthony Reynolds, its really completely differents worlds for the two, one portrays their descent into Chaos and the other portrays after the descent. I quite enjoyed the 1st Heretic and danm near went with making an all out army of them, due to that book alone.

IMO the godisizing(I think thats not even a word) of the big E was inevitable and was bound to happen one way or anthoer with or without Lorgar's help, but it raises the one aspect of human nature whcih is we have to have something to believe in, Lorgar's pursuit of devine beings was in a way a noble cause to prove to the people of the Imperium that there were forces out there that are more powerful and actually devine, regardless if the Big E said their wasn't. Kor Pharon and Erebus played a large role pushing him into Chaos, but ultimately the entire HH was caused by Emperor's actions and not that of any of the traitors. Ignorence is a bliss, but the big E was trying to hide something from people that was unhidable(great I think I added another word to the dictionary), most if not all the worlds conquered by the Great Crusades were already deep into Chaos worship and even though the Emperor swayed these people away from that worship, they still remember there old religions, all Lorgar really did was prove that these religions had truth behind them.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

What drew me to the Word Bearers wasnt their zealotry but the fact they were betrayed by the people they loved and believed in; humanity and the emperor, seeking out something greater then what they are andn what they believed in a higher purpose the search for more power and the fall of what was once pure, after reading First Heretic this didnt change my view at but further established my view on them.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I, personally, didn't have an issue with the Word Bearers prior to the Heresy novels. In fact, I thought Anthony Reynolds ably depicted a Legion of fanatical followers of Chaos.

Where the Word Bearers suffered, I think, was that "Horus Rising", "False Gods", and "Galaxy in Flames" focused on the conspiratorial role they played in getting the ball rolling against the Emperor. Angron was more or less being true to himself, Mortarion was an unknown, and Horus had been poisoned and manipulated along the way into making his decision. So Lorgar, Erebus, and the Word Bearers were, by default, the deceitfully evil bad guys with no obvious redeeming value. This made them easier to hate/disdain.

"The First Heretic" and "Aurelian" succeeded in giving context to their betrayal, which made them more sympathetic - not entirely so, in my eyes at least, but that's not a failure of the author... it's more the fact that I never truly accepted the pre-existing reason for Lorgar's anger. I've gone into detail about this before, though, and don't want to derail the thread.

Bottom line, those two books nicely provided an opposite "bookend" for Reynold's trilogy. We already knew that the Word Bearers were ruthless, proud, powerful in battle, and utterly possessed of conviction in their cause (if not altogether loyal to one another) in the 41st millennium. With "TFH" and "Aurelian", we finally got to see that there was nobility and conviction in them from the get-go... and not just anger and treachery.

Cheers,
P.


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## The Meddler (Sep 25, 2010)

SoulGazer said:


> I have to say, _First Heretic_ just made me think even less of the Emperor's parenting skills.


What if the Emperor deliberately made the punishment worse to make the lesson sink in more? If he'd just called a private meeting with Lorgar and maybe a few other primarchs and given him a slap on the wrist, Lorgar would have been hurt but he might have continued to worship his dad in secret. Telling Aurelian that his achievements were worthless, all his brothers were better than him (they conquered more worlds) _and _ordering the Custodes to baby-sit him drove the lesson in, to emphasise the severity of what he had done. He didn't tell him (or anyone else for that matter) about Chaos because if they knew there were these ultra-powerful malevolent beings in the warp against which they had no real defense, there would have been mass hysteria, which would only have helped the Chaos gods (he might have been planning on telling the Imperium about Chaos after the Imperial webway was built, but Magnus fucked that up). Quite a few people would also be induced to defect to Chaos, including Lorgar, considering his need for a higher power to worship.

Admittedly, this doesn't explain why he left it a century before telling him off.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Have to say I was originally planning a Word Bearers army, but the Horus Heresy series kind of killed my interest in them, despite First Heretic being pretty good, I just didn't really enjoy their character etc in every other book. I think it's mainly cause I still hold the same opinions that the majority of the other legions have on them, despite knowing the reasons for their turn, I still think they are on the whole quite pathetic.


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## Sangriento (Dec 1, 2010)

I was considering Lorgar a decent primarch and even ranking him among the BAMFs...c'mon, he pimpslapped Malcador, the greatest human psyker close to Magnus and third only to the Emperor... until:

1) he crapped in his pants at the prospect of going to the EoT and sent Argel Tal first

2) Corax teabagged him


anyway something always stroke my funny with the WB...in BftA 4 SMs from different legions utterly destroyed far greater numbers of WBs...it is strongly implied they are at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to real figthing.

they werent my legion of choice before, and after the HH books Im fairly sure they will never be...


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> I would say Lorgar was deceived. Kor Phaeron had already turned his back on the Emperor and wouldn't be happy until the man he considered _his_ son and noone else's, was following the path he had decided was the right one.
> Just look at how Lorgar reacts to what Kor has been doing, leaving pockets of possibly Chaos-tainted cults on so-called compliant worlds. Lorgar is appalled and shocked at this, moreso when Erebus joins in.
> The tour of the Eye that Lorgar gets is the one that is tailored best to appeal to his philosophical standpoint on gods and worship; even after all of this he still isn't convinced that he can do this to Humanity. For all the Lorgar believes that if gods exist then they must be worshipped, the 'horror' (his own word) makes him think twice about what he is to do. What propels him on is the fact that, in my opinion, Lorgar is the perfect prophet. He is not a leader of his own convictions, but the coneyor of convictions given to him by one he considers powerful enough to be called a 'god'.
> I see the WB themselves as true zealots, followers of what they feel is right, lead by those who think what they are doing is the only way. I feel sorry for Lorgar. He truly hasn't thought things through, even when he is allowing Kor Phaeron and Erebus to set-up the demise of the Imperium. It's only when he actually sees, right in front of him, what his acceptance of these plans entails that he suddenly realises what he has allowed to happen. I can only imagine what he feels now, so far in the future. Daemonhood might be his, but is it something he wants, or a refuge from what he has done? Could he not have changed his mind, or at least truthfully thought about it, rather than blindly ignoring everything he was told and asked just so he could be proved right? So he found what he thought were gods. Are they really? The Warp Powers are truly powerful, but dependent on sentient beings. If we control them, even indirectly, then can it be truly said that they are in charge and are directing us? Maybe if the Emperor's plans had been allowed to unfold Humanity, at least, would have been able to remove itself from the influence of Chaos.
> ...


:goodpost: This is why I love reading your posts. The depth of your analysis is staggering.


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