# The tau c'tan or old one?



## tau112 (Jun 30, 2010)

This may be a very old question, but with the Tau's rapid expansion they couldn't have done it in just 2,000 years so there must be an outside source. So was it the c'tan or the old ones and that is why the eldar are proud of them?


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## arlins (Sep 8, 2010)

Why would a C,Tan help them along ? its not like they have good intentions for anything living :biggrin:.
They dont really need a race to help them fight or act as a diversion , so i cant see any reason for a C,tan to be influencing them ( unless it was to keep them back and stop them developing anti, necron tech ).


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Warning Supporting this theory may cause nerd rage:Some one's gonna say it was the eldar because the eldar kidnapped a space bug and the etherals showed up in the same year, completely wrong.:egar dren esuac yam yroeht siht gnitroppus gninraw

It could not be the old ones they probably aren't even in our galaxy, the ctan I can't really see one helping them unless he plans to turn them into tacrons. IMO the only reason the Tau were able to expand so fast was the fact their whole planet had the same cause.


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## tau112 (Jun 30, 2010)

locustgate said:


> Some one's gonna say it was the eldar because the eldar kidnapped a space bug and the etherals showed up in the same year, completely wrong.
> It could not be the old ones they probably aren't even in our galaxy, the ctan I can't really see one helping them unless he plans to turn them into tacrons. IMO the only reason the Tau were able to expand so fast was the fact their whole planet had the same cause.


No could the old ones have survived in the warp and helped the tau? Or could a c'tan have have been creating the tau so they can purge all life left?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I believe the answer is neither. Old fluff in xenology would point to eldar before the c`tan, which makes much more sense. 

Even so, I would attribute the tau`s success to their own ingenuity and rapid evolution and development.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

tau112 said:


> No could the old ones have survived in the warp and helped the tau? Or could a c'tan have have been creating the tau so they can purge all life left?


1) The Old Ones are either dead or gone they do not currently play any role in 40k and there is no suggestion (in anything that I'm aware of) that they still (or even could) survive in the warp.
2) Why would a C'tan need the Tau to purge all life? They have the Necrons for exactly that purpose and the Necrons are far more numerous and deadly than the Tau.
3) The Tau are a pretty small player on the galactic scale. The idea that either of these (or any other) fairly major (and certainly ancient) powers would give half a crap about the Tau is pretty absurd.



tau112 said:


> This may be a very old question, but with the Tau's rapid expansion they couldn't have done it in just 2,000 years so there must be an outside source. So was it the c'tan or the old ones and that is why the eldar are proud of them?


I don't see any reason why the Tau couldn't have achieved their expansion in 2000 years. Look at where we were 2000 years ago, look at where we are now, imagine where we might be in 2000 years. Thus far the Tau have been exceedingly lucky but I see no reason that they would need external support to achieve this.


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## steampunktau (Aug 12, 2009)

I think the giant freak warp storm that popped up right after the Imperium originally marked the Tau for exterminatus is a sign that there's someone else at work behind the Tau, protecting them if not outright running the show. This would rule out the C'tan, since they don't really do warp.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Yeah, it's one of those veiled mysteries that might be further built on in an update. Though it is still interesting to note how parallel the Tau are with the Necrons in many aspects,and it is very likely that Necrons are what caused Farsight to defect for whatever reason. It wouldn't surprise me if the two races had some strange connection between them.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

First off, it's not 2000 years. It took the Tau 6000 years to go from primitive hunter-gatherer society to their current state, an early interstellar empire. As to whether or not there's an outside influence affecting the Tau, at the moment there's little in the way to suggest that there's something watching out for them other than the freak Warp Storm that protected the primitive Tau from the Imperium. But even then, there's nothing to say that was intentionally caused by someone. And the jury is still out on Farsight, he could truly be a traitor to his people, pawn of another power or he could be simply be a warrior loyal to his people but seeking a different path from that of the Ethereals. But again, GW has currently left that open and even their old site had an article feature two different Farsight conversations, one a servant of C'tan another a loyal renegade. As to the Eldar, I should point out that it was Eldrad that had an interest in them because he could see that among the myriad futures of the Tau, he sees that they could master their own darkness and become greater than the Eldar were before the Fall.

Again, it's all a lot of maybes and could-bes but nothing solid.


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## tau112 (Jun 30, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> 1) The Old Ones are either dead or gone they do not currently play any role in 40k and there is no suggestion (in anything that I'm aware of) that they still (or even could) survive in the warp.
> 2) Why would a C'tan need the Tau to purge all life? They have the Necrons for exactly that purpose and the Necrons are far more numerous and deadly than the Tau.
> 3) The Tau are a pretty small player on the galactic scale. The idea that either of these (or any other) fairly major (and certainly ancient) powers would give half a crap about the Tau is pretty absurd.
> 
> ...


As I remember The Old One are considered dead but as I recall some could have surrvived in the warp for that was their home.

How old is our species? 6 Million years old? The Tau is 6000 years old that is a huge difference seeing as they very technologically advanced than us.


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## arlins (Sep 8, 2010)

tau112 said:


> As I remember The Old One are considered dead but as I recall some could have surrvived in the warp for that was their home.
> 
> How old is our species? 6 Million years old? The Tau is 6000 years old that is a huge difference seeing as they very technologically advanced than us.


 Dont forget the Tau unified and work toghether for the common good under the guidance 
of the Etherals .
A whole species working toghether and not trying to rob , steal , control , destroy 
each other ( as most of our history is full of) would be able to advance alot quicker 
then we did .
Plus these arnt us theyre aliens , with diff attributes such as higher IQ,s and such 
so making comparables with humans doesnt really work


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

I have always wondered how to Tau became so advanced, and I'm pretty sure you don't go from a pathetic hunter to a highly advanced race within 6000 years through luck. I doubt very much the C'tan had anything to do with it but the old ones? i seems unlikely because the old ones disappeared a long long time ago, but still, it makes you wonder...

In the rulebook the tau are described as "a spark of life in a dying galaxy" and that makes you wonder how powerful the tau would be if/when they become a much larger empire.


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## steampunktau (Aug 12, 2009)

In the Tau fluff, the Ethereals just sort of appeared out of nowhere when the entire Tau species was about to destroy itself through infighting.

So you have this feral race with four subspecies, each about to kill the other. Then along come these new Tau who no one has ever seen but can apparently exert pheromonal control over the Tau, and they already have this fully formed philosophy to unite the tau, on a world where philosophy is the very last thing on anyone's mind.

Now, in the real world, pheromones play a part in nature. But they don't just suddenly pop into being - evolution dictates them. For pheromones to develop, there has to be broad interaction over the course of thousands or even millions of years. In social insects like bees, the queen will control the hive through the use of pheromones, in much the same way that the Ethereals do. But the difference is that bees have evolved like this, with a queen insect beginning to create its control when it first began to develop its pheromones. If the queen bees had acted like the Ethereals and never gone around the rest of the bees, their pheromones would simply not work the same as they do, if at all. Or even more likely, they would never have developed the pheromones in the first place.

So assuming that GW accounted for RL science when starting the Tau pheromone idea, there are only two possibilities:
The first possibility is that the Ethereals were a caste that had always interacted with the rest of the Tau. This is an unlikely event since Codex: Tau Empire has a section describing the very first appearance of the Ethereals, which was sometime after the warp storm appeared, and their pheromonal control was demonstrated by the sudden end of thousands of years of warfare a mere month after the Ethereals appeared. And then if it were by natural evolution, there is absolutely no reason for the rest of the tau to not produce the pheromones as well.

The second and more likely possibility is that the Ethereals were the product of a genetic engineering project carried out by someone who had studied the Tau extensively and could create an organ that would produce pheromones that would influence the rest of the Tau, and gave them all some sort of instinctual understanding of the Greater Good.

The only people I can think of who are both capable of and willing to do this are the Eldar and the Old Ones.

The Eldar are a bit of a stretch, since I don't think such an impressively psychic race would willingly engineer a civilization without giving them psyker abilities. One could argue that they were protecting the Tau from the Warp, but it just doesn't feel like something they would do - I think the Eldar would consider it an acceptable risk. And I would think that the Eldar would add some kind of psychic safeguard to prevent the Tau from fighting them, which is obviously not the case since we've seen Tau fighting the Eldar before.

That leaves the Old Ones. They were the absolute masters of genetic engineering in the universe, and so they're certainly capable of creating the Ethereals. Plus, assuming some of them escaped into the Warp, it is also completely feasible that they created the warp storm to protect them while their creations went to work. And really, the Tau stand for everything the Old Ones stood for - order and peace, the very opposite of Chaos.

So my vote is for the Old Ones.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

tau112 said:


> This may be a very old question, but with the Tau's rapid expansion they couldn't have done it in just 2,000 years so there must be an outside source. So was it the c'tan or the old ones and that is why the eldar are proud of them?


If I am truthful, I consider that a very flawed argument. Just because the Tau have achieved an interstellar empire within a few thousand years does not automatically equate to outside influence.

However, outside influence is perfectly plausable. Just you havn't put forward any justifiable argument to suggest such.



steampunktau said:


> I think the giant freak warp storm that popped up right after the Imperium originally marked the Tau for exterminatus is a sign that there's someone else at work behind the Tau, protecting them if not outright running the show. This would rule out the C'tan, since they don't really do warp.


Coincidence is probably just as likely.



tau112 said:


> As I remember The Old One are considered dead but as I recall some could have surrvived in the warp for that was their home.


No, the Old Ones did not 'live in the warp'.



steampunktau said:


> How old is our species? 6 Million years old? The Tau is 6000 years old that is a huge difference seeing as they very technologically advanced than us.


The Tau are not 6000 years old. They were a primitive and tribal society 6000 years ago, but that didn't just spring up out of nowhere. Same as Mankind.



tau112 said:


> No could the old ones have survived in the warp and helped the tau? Or could a c'tan have have been creating the tau so they can purge all life left?


The Tau are probably the least suited species to have been created to _'purge all life'_. They are a progressive species who assimilate other races and civilisations into their empire, hardly what I would call _'purging'_.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

steampunktau said:


> So assuming that GW accounted for RL science when starting the Tau pheromone idea,


Well there's your first mistake. GW very rarely look at the complexities of real life science (or real life anything for that matter). 



> The second and more likely possibility is that the Ethereals were the product of a genetic engineering project carried out by someone who had studied the Tau extensively and could create an organ that would produce pheromones that would influence the rest of the Tau, and gave them all some sort of instinctual understanding of the Greater Good.


So did they design the entire Tau race or just the Etherals? Because if it's just the etherals then there's no real logica reason why the pheremones would have the effect they do. Clearly whatever pheromones the Etherals emit are fundamentally tied to the rest of the Taus phisiology. And if they created both why wait to introduce the Etherals? Why risk all your hard work tearing itself apart?



> The only people I can think of who are both capable of and willing to do this are the Eldar and the Old Ones.


The only races that exist on a galactic scale sure (or exited given that the Old Ones are dead) but given that the Tau are not present on a galactic scale I see no reason why these races would care. Perhaps another race created the Etherals (or pretends to be the Etherals) in order to get the Tau to protect them? But I still think outside influence is unnecessary and unlikely.



> Plus, assuming some of them escaped into the Warp, it is also completely feasible that they created the warp storm to protect them while their creations went to work.


The Old Ones couldn't escape to the warp as it was the warp that contained the threat that destroyed them. Further, hiding in and manipulating to your will are very different things. Even if the Old Ones still survive in the warp (which is highly unlikely) there isn't really any reason to suggest they can manipulate it to their will or project it into reality at whim. 



> And really, the Tau stand for everything the Old Ones stood for - order and peace, the very opposite of Chaos.


We actually don't really know what the Old Ones stood for as the only time we see their race is in the Eldar myths and the histories of the Necrons where all they appear to stand for is not dying.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Could the warp storm have acted something like a time dilation field? Iow, allowed time to progress more rabidly in the storm in relation to the rest of real space? I know very little about the Tau, so there is probably a glaringly obvious reason this is either irrelevant or couldn't happen.


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## steampunktau (Aug 12, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> So did they design the entire Tau race or just the Etherals? Because if it's just the etherals then there's no real logica reason why the pheremones would have the effect they do. Clearly whatever pheromones the Etherals emit are fundamentally tied to the rest of the Taus phisiology. And if they created both why wait to introduce the Etherals? Why risk all your hard work tearing itself apart?


maybe it took that long to perfect the pheromone. I'm going off the assumption that whoever it was engineered the pheromone as well - maybe it took a lot of trial and error before it worked right.




> The only races that exist on a galactic scale sure (or exited given that the Old Ones are dead) but given that the Tau are not present on a galactic scale I see no reason why these races would care.


 perhaps they were purposely selecting a race that was insignificant - something that no one would care enough about to interfere with while they were advancing.



> We actually don't really know what the Old Ones stood for as the only time we see their race is in the Eldar myths and the histories of the Necrons where all they appear to stand for is not dying.


I was making an assumption on this one based on the WFRP 1st edition rulebook, which describes the Old Slann (who in later fluff are just the Old Ones), who traveled amongst the stars, etc, etc, etc, and it talks about how their vision is for a universe of absolute order and perfection.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

First off, a Warp Storm does not do that. In the simplest terms, a Warp Storm is a massive, immobile violent tornado of Warp energy. However, just like tornadoes there is an eye of the storm where things are completely fine. The problem with Warp Storms is that it is extremely, extremely dangerous to travel through them. There is not time warping effects because the worlds in question were not physically in the Warp.

As to the Ethereal pheromones idea, I would like to point out that it is a theory at the moment regarding the unique organ they possess and not a solid fact. And despite the Mechanicus discovering this organ, they're still not sure what effects it has on the Tau and if it truly is what causes the Tau to follow them so devoutly.


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## Catpain Rich (Dec 13, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Tau are probably the least suited species to have been created to _'purge all life'_. They are a progressive species who assimilate other races and civilisations into their empire, hardly what I would call _'purging'_.


I'm going to disagree with you on this one. The C'tan are out to get slave races and if their slave races can gather more slave races for them then that would be ideal I think.


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## tau112 (Jun 30, 2010)

So at the moment it seems to be more at the Old Ones


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Catpain Rich said:


> I'm going to disagree with you on this one. The C'tan are out to get slave races and if their slave races can gather more slave races for them then that would be ideal I think.


Thats not what he said though, he said _"purge all life"_. And I was directly replying to him.



tau112 said:


> So at the moment it seems to be more at the Old Ones


Or another external force, or no one. There really is not any evidence at all to suggest it was the Old Ones.


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## Dark Archon (Feb 27, 2011)

Old Ones are dead and gone simple as that. Doesnt matter if they were mentioned in old editions or as the Old Slaan. In current continuity they are gone. As stated in Xenology(well not stated but heavily implied) the Eldar essentially took a Q'Orl swarm queen which is noted as having the exact same crest that the ethereals have. It makes sense for the Eldar to create a ruling caste for the Tau when you think about it, Eldar see that the Tau can become a greater civilization then they themselves could be, but at the present state(6 thousands years ago) they were barbaric and constantly in-fighting. So they engineer a ruling caste that controls the other caste's through pheremones, in addition they also have an idealistic(cuz in this universe it actually works) philosophy that unites the castes.

And why would the Eldar risk making another species psychic? They themselves struggle so hard to not fall to the predations of Slaanesh so why risk losing a spark of hope to Chaos. Being blunts they are more unlikely to be corrupted then humans but they arent negative enough to harm psykers in general.


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

Some key information:

1) The Ethereals have a perculiar pheremone organ located in their skulls, which is not present in any other Tau.

2) However, this EXACT organ is present in the Q'orl species, which is insectoid and located on the exact opposite of the galaxy. Neither race had FTL capacity when these organs appeared, so were incapable of meeting without some sort of third party intermediate.

3) The Q'orl sense organs are used by their queens and officer castes to create adoration and effection amongst their drones (and in one case, a human was also brought under this pheremone spell, but that is tangential)

4) Q'orl legends talk of a war against chaos in their past, where they were helped by aliens who looked like 'the Corpse-God's brood' but were fairer and taller in aspect. These colourful creatures helped defeat the chaos forces. They then ask the Q'orl if they could take their queen, because the tall human-like aliens wanted to create a 'swarm uncorrupted' (that is, a race which was resistant to chaos itself potentially). The Q'orl refuse, and the lanky man-like aliens steal the queen anyway.

5) The Ethereals appeared suddenly out of nowhere just as the Tau were about to destroy themselves. Their arrival was preceded by weird lights in the mountains, and half-glimpsed strange figures in the hills.

6) Harlequins are a secretive faction of Eldar, who are protected from chaos by a surviving Trickster God, Cegorach, who is a god who is common to several alien pantheons, not just Eldar. Their goal is to protect the Eldar race and defeat chaos.

7) Another alien god is called Qah, who is likely survived the birth of slannesh by fleeing into the warp. He was able to manipulate the Hrud and alter their biology entirely to suite their role as troglodytes and almost-librarians, demosntrating genetic tampering skills. He is not neccessarily related to the whole Tau issue, but he could be, as he was depcited as a 'tinkerer'. He may have been thrown out of the warp as the Umbra race in totality.

8) The Craftworlders (Eldrad in particular) are oddly protective of the Tau, but don't know why.

9) The Necrons and C'tan seem unlikely candidates for manipulators of the Tau, as in Xenology 

it was the Necrons who were trying to figure out the weakness of the Tau, in order to defeat them and evvery other 40K xenos race. if the necrons already knew about the Tau's origins, why the need to research them?

Also, the Tau's MO is uniting the galaxy together under one power. Why would the necrons want every race in the galaxy united as a single power? Surely divide and conquer would make more sense? Conversely, the Old One's would very much want to unite all their old (and some new) races together, ready for a war against the C'tan. 

10) The Tau luckily found a warp drive close to their home system, which allowed them to develop FTL with a head start by retroengineering it.

11) A convenient warp storm opens up to save the Tau from being purged. Also, the Perdus Rift Anomaly remains a permanent impediment to any further fleets wish to enter tau space.

12) Their are aof space is a dense region of stars, which is weird.

13) Aun'Va is impossibly ancient for a Tau, whoa re supposed to have short lifespans.


... Just some thoughts...


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Dark Archon said:


> As stated in Xenology(well not stated but heavily implied) the Eldar essentially took a Q'Orl swarm queen which is noted as having the exact same crest that the ethereals have.


I haven't read it so I can't be sure but doesn't Xenology actually suggest that the Etherals have a receiver organ and not a sender? 



> It makes sense for the Eldar to create a ruling caste for the Tau when you think about it, Eldar see that the Tau can become a greater civilization then they themselves could be, but at the present state(6 thousands years ago) they were barbaric and constantly in-fighting. So they engineer a ruling caste that controls the other caste's through pheremones, in addition they also have an idealistic(cuz in this universe it actually works) philosophy that unites the castes.


That's not really very logical though. "This race could be a great power; if we actively mess with their DNA, protect them in their ascension and wait a really, really long time. It's brilliant, brilliant BRILLIANT" 



steampunktau said:


> maybe it took that long to perfect the pheromone. I'm going off the assumption that whoever it was engineered the pheromone as well - maybe it took a lot of trial and error before it worked right.


But the majority of the Tau already had the receiver nodes. Their brains were already wired to respond to those signals. Either the creators made the receptor before he made the sender or they waited to implement the Etherals. Neither of these options makes very little sense.



> perhaps they were purposely selecting a race that was insignificant - something that no one would care enough about to interfere with while they were advancing.


The Tau have more or less advanced to the furthest point they can without either some serious help or ludicrous luck (there was a whole thread on this a while back). And yet they are still insignificant. So how does that help?


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> I haven't read it so I can't be sure but doesn't Xenology actually suggest that the Etherals have a receiver organ and not a sender?


I'll check. That's even more interesting if true, as that suggests whoever installed th eorgan plan on taking over the Ethereals eventually.





> That's not really very logical though. "This race could be a great power; if we actively mess with their DNA, protect them in their ascension and wait a really, really long time. It's brilliant, brilliant BRILLIANT"


What about "How about we create a race which we can use to eventually usurp the other races, and use them as tools in our great war. However, we should probably hide them in the far corne rof the galaxy, so hopefully our enemies don't find them and destroy them before they're ready..."





> But the majority of the Tau already had the receiver nodes. Their brains were already wired to respond to those signals. Either the creators made the receptor before he made the sender or they waited to implement the Etherals. Neither of these options makes very little sense.


Unless the Tau were constructed, just like the Eldar, Orks, Hrud and all the other humanoid races were...

They were merely the last project, and their manipulators needed to out-source an organ to finish the race. They were cuttign it fine as well. While they were away getting the organs, the Tau nearly killed themselves in their half-finished state!





> The Tau have more or less advanced to the furthest point they can without either some serious help or ludicrous luck (there was a whole thread on this a while back). And yet they are still insignificant. So how does that help?


Depends what their purpose actually is...


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

I went back and read that Ethereal dissection part.

The receptors bit actually says that Tau have unusually good sens eof smell. Therefore, arguably, any pheremone-based control mechanism would be extras effective on them...


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

LordLucan said:


> What about "How about we create a race which we can use to eventually usurp the other races, and use them as tools in our great war. However, we should probably hide them in the far corne rof the galaxy, so hopefully our enemies don't find them and destroy them before they're ready..."
> [snip]
> Depends what their purpose actually is...


Don't these points kind of contradict each other? If you need the race to achieve something noticeable than you need them to be noticeable. But the Tau are not noticeable now, and will not become noticeable without serious help or serious luck. If you have to help them to achieve their potential then you could use that energy to achieve or at least attempt to re-achieve your own potential. And if you're relying on luck, well that's a lot of effort for potentially no reward.



> Unless the Tau were constructed, just like the Eldar, Orks, Hrud and all the other humanoid races were...
> 
> They were merely the last project, and their manipulators needed to out-source an organ to finish the race. They were cuttign it fine as well. While they were away getting the organs, the Tau nearly killed themselves in their half-finished state!


The general problem with that is the the Old Ones made the first group and no longer exist, which means they can't have finished the Tau. Now it's possible that the Eldar could have set about to finish the Old Ones plans but why would they? The Eldar are incredibly self-centered and egotistical, not to mention that they haven't shown any interest in reviving any of the Old Ones plans.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

LordLucan said:


> Some key information:
> 
> 1) The Ethereals have a perculiar pheremone organ located in their skulls, which is not present in any other Tau.
> 
> ...


1. It does not say they have the same.
1b. It says the 1st Ethereral appearce in the late 39k or 38k the same as a the bug.
2. They NEVER MET!!!!!!
4. Where, it described as eldar not humans?
5. During a warp storm.
6. So what does that have to do with the Tau, and the laughing god only cares about the eldar.
8. I have never read the craft world protecting the tau, quote Eldrad "I see a great future ahead of the Tau, and I feel oddly protective of them.
10. The tau have NO WARPDRIVES, the dip in between deminsions and then pop out.
12. So my cat stares at the wall does that mean there's something in the wall.
13. SO there are extremly old humans does that mean they were engineered by an alien.
P.S. You were warned.


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## Dark Archon (Feb 27, 2011)

locustgate said:


> 1. It does not say they have the same.
> 1b. It says the 1st Ethereral appearce in the late 39k or 38k the same as a the bug.
> So? that makes no difference
> 2. They NEVER MET!!!!!!
> ...


there you go


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## tau112 (Jun 30, 2010)

Unless the tau were created by another force altogether than we know. But if not It seems more and more likely to be Eldar.


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## Lord_Anonymous (Oct 13, 2010)

I fail to see the logic behind the Eldar intervening in the Tau, they despise them as a foolish young species with impossible and unreachable ideals.
The Eldar can see the future or possibilities of the future, why would they condone the Tau's existence when there are times when they clash and kill eldar. The Eldar would rather a million people from another race die than one eldar dies.

So no, I don't think it was the Eldar but you never know... Maybe it was really Dark Eldar that napped the swarm queen and created the ethereals under Slaanesh's order or some other equally screwed deity/deities. It has possibilities but i'm just speculating.


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## tau112 (Jun 30, 2010)

Lord_Anonymous said:


> I fail to see the logic behind the Eldar intervening in the Tau, they despise them as a foolish young species with impossible and unreachable ideals.
> The Eldar can see the future or possibilities of the future, why would they condone the Tau's existence when there are times when they clash and kill eldar. The Eldar would rather a million people from another race die than one eldar dies.
> 
> So no, I don't think it was the Eldar but you never know... Maybe it was really Dark Eldar that napped the swarm queen and created the ethereals under Slaanesh's order or some other equally screwed deity/deities. It has possibilities but i'm just speculating.


1) The Dark Eldar despise the forces of chaos and do not worship it. ALL ELDAR DESPISE CHAOS simple as for chaos destroyed their entire galactic empire. If the Eldar have clashed with the Tau they are probably Craftworld Eldar. If the Eldar created the Tau then it would be the Harlequins he most secretive of all Eldar they are neutral. They go from Dark Eldar to Craftworld to Exodites.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Dark Archon said:


> 1. It does not say they have the same.
> 1b. It says the 1st Ethereral appearce in the late 39k or 38k the same as a the bug.
> So? that makes no difference
> 2. They NEVER MET!!!!!!
> ...


1. Yeah that makes a HUGE difference I don't care how advanced the space elves are they can't just create a new lifeform in one try I don't care how advanced a race is it takes time and tries to make something.
4.yeah I said it was eldar. 
8. SO the humans have allied with the eldar does that mean the eldar created the humans.
10. Fine if you want to generalize then ok I'll count them as 'warp' drives, but where does it say they found it.
13 Wait so Plasma weapons that don't blow up isn't advanced, A.I.s aren't advanced, armor that turns invisible and is mass produced isn't advanced, wait humans can break the norm lifespan does that mean they were created and are being pupeted by another rance.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

tau112 said:


> 1) The Dark Eldar despise the forces of chaos and do not worship it. ALL ELDAR DESPISE CHAOS simple as for chaos destroyed their entire galactic empire. If the Eldar have clashed with the Tau they are probably Craftworld Eldar. If the Eldar created the Tau then it would be the Harlequins he most secretive of all Eldar they are neutral. They go from Dark Eldar to Craftworld to Exodites.


1) Is there any reason to beleive it was the harlequin's over other Eldar? Even if we except Eldar involvement (which I personnally don't) there is nothing that I'm aware of that suggests which faction might be involved.
2) The Harlequins lack the dedicated facilities to genetically engineer a race. Indeed they lack the dedicated facilities to do anything. There is a reason they live nomadic lives and travel between other Eldar settlements and it's because they lack the resources to feed/supply/repair their own stuff, let alone create another race.
3) The Harlequins ultimate goal is mysterious but is certainly for the betterment of eldar-kind. Creating a race that poses a threat to their own people is not a part of that m.o.



Dark Archon said:


> The Eldar most likely have the tech or the ability to traverse a warp storm, especially cuz they would only need a small craft to do it.




That's completely illogical. The size of the craft has almost nothing to do with it's ability to traverse a warp storm, if anything a larger more durable vessel would be preferable. The Eldar do not travel through the warp so I see no reason why they would be better at doing so than other races.



> Yes but the extremely old humans are only 3 to 4 times their natural age and even then imperial tech is very advanced(no matter what people say, its basic but cmon a gun that can be recharged from sunlight or throwing in a fire? thats advanced) makes sense for the mysterious puppeteers to keep him around as he is the main leader of the Tau
> P.S. You were warned.


That also makes very little sense. There is a prefectly logical reason for his long life, whereas there isn't a logical reason for another race to keep him alive. Why bother extending the life of one Etheral if all Etherals are bound to your will (because you created them) and can command instant obedience in other Tau?


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## tau112 (Jun 30, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> 1) Is there any reason to beleive it was the harlequin's over other Eldar? Even if we except Eldar involvement (which I personnally don't) there is nothing that I'm aware of that suggests which faction might be involved.
> 2) The Harlequins lack the dedicated facilities to genetically engineer a race. Indeed they lack the dedicated facilities to do anything. There is a reason they live nomadic lives and travel between other Eldar settlements and it's because they lack the resources to feed/supply/repair their own stuff, let alone create another race.
> 3) The Harlequins ultimate goal is mysterious but is certainly for the betterment of eldar-kind. Creating a race that poses a threat to their own people is not a part of that m.o.
> 
> ...




The Harlequins do have the facility to modify a race because ofThe Black Library.
Plus the Harlequins are gypsies because it is their role to unite all Eldar.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

tau112 said:


> The Harlequins do have the facility to modify a race because ofThe Black Library.


The Black Library contains a crap-ton of information and plenty other cool and dangerous things however there is nothing to suggest that it contians the dedicated labs required for genetic modification. Further the Harlequinsare not granted any more access to the Library than other Eldar (as far as I know). 



> Plus the Harlequins are gypsies because it is their role to unite all Eldar.


Your point being? The Harlequins lack the resources to resupply themselves because they are gypsies and are gypsies because they lack the resources to resupply themselves.

We don't actually know what the Harlequins goal is, but there role is to entertain and inform the Eldar with dances of their past and legends. But even if their goal is uniting the Eldar (which is unknown) how does creating/manipulating another race help unify the Eldar?


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Dark Archon said:


> 5. During a warp storm.
> The Eldar most likely have the tech or the ability to traverse a warp storm, especially cuz they would only need a small craft to do it.


First off, the Eldar cannot travel through a Warp Storm any more than anyone else can. I'm not even sure if a path of the Webway that went through a Warp Storm would be safe. Nor does the size of the craft have anything to do with successfully traveling through a Warp Storm.



> 8. I have never read the craft world protecting the tau, quote Eldrad "I see a great future ahead of the Tau, and I feel oddly protective of them.
> They've allied together in the fluff and i do believe there has been atleast one occasion where the CE have come and saved the Tau but i cant recall where i read that


Do not confuse Eldrad with all Craftworld Eldar. Yes, he was their greatest Farseer but that doesn't mean that all Eldar share his belief or even realize that Tau exist. The Craftworld Eldar are not a united people. Some see them like Eldrad but many others just don't care about some aliens in the Eastern Fringe. As to Tau allying with Eldar from time to time, that isn't really a big deal. I can think of several instances in which the Imperium has briefly allied with Tau and the same with the Eldar. It's called briefly siding with the lesser of two evils to deal with the greater evil. As to the Craftworld Eldar saving the Tau at one point, it must be in one of the Eldar Codices as I have both the Tau books and there's no mention of that. Also, you may be confusing the CE with the Dark Eldar as they did save a minor Tau world from a splinter of one of the major Hivefleets. Of course, it was all for their own enjoyment as not long afterword they attacked said world and killed or enslaved every Tau on the planet.



> 10. The tau have NO WARPDRIVES, the dip in between deminsions and then pop out.
> The Tau HAVE WARPDRIVES, how do you think they dip between dimensions? Simply having a warp drive doesnt mean you can make massive jumps, you need navigator or psykers at the very least, which the Tau lack so cant make bigger jumps.


The Tau do not possess true Warp Drives like all of the other major powers save for the Eldar, Tyranids and Necrons. Their FTL Drives essentially skim the surface of the Warp which means that it is safer than true Warp Travel but cannot travel the great distances the Imperium can. Also, a Navigator/psyker is not necessarily needed for long distance travel as demonstrated by the Necrons who also possess no psykers whatsoever. Of course, the Tau are a long, long, _long_ way from achieving that level of science and technology.



> 13. SO there are extremly old humans does that mean they were engineered by an alien.
> Yes but the extremely old humans are only 3 to 4 times their natural age and even then imperial tech is very advanced(no matter what people say, its basic but cmon a gun that can be recharged from sunlight or throwing in a fire? thats advanced) makes sense for the mysterious puppeteers to keep him around as he is the main leader of the Tau.


The natural lifespan of a Tau is indeed quite short. I'm not sure how short but I think it's somewhere around 60-70 years. As to why Aun'va and a few others have lived beyond that, I have no idea but I should point out that here on Earth we have individuals that live well into a hundred years. Who's to say that Aun'va isn't just one of those individuals that live beyond the normal lifespan. There just isn't enough on Aun'va to say for certain if he truly is living well beyond the normal lifespan of the Tau.



tau112 said:


> 1) The Dark Eldar despise the forces of chaos and do not worship it. ALL ELDAR DESPISE CHAOS simple as for chaos destroyed their entire galactic empire. If the Eldar have clashed with the Tau they are probably Craftworld Eldar. If the Eldar created the Tau then it would be the Harlequins he most secretive of all Eldar they are neutral. They go from Dark Eldar to Craftworld to Exodites.


There just isn't really anything whatsoever to suggest that the Eldar are behind the evolution of the Tau (or anyone else in galaxy past or present). I must ask why any of the Eldar would meddle in the matters of a race of primitive aliens?

I know the first thing fans of the Eldar theory are going to bring up is Eldrad's quote (which I should point out was likely made after the Warp Storm ended and the Tau emerged on the scene of the Eastern Fringe) but lets take a look at the full quote.



> I have followed the myriad potential futures of the Tau with great interest. Though barely even striplings compared to us, I feel a strange protectiveness towards them. In time I believe they will exceed even our greatest feats and master the darkness within their souls.


There are two particular parts of this quote I want to bring up first. 'I have followed the _myriad potential_ futures of the Tau...' '..._In time I believe_ they will exceed even our greatest feats and master the darkness within their souls.'

Now he is suggesting that they _could_ be destined for greatness but they have a long, long way to go and who knows what could happen in the mean time? How many races in the galaxy have been at the stage the Tau are at and yet are now extinct? Luck and circumstance is what kept them alive thus far but such things can rapidly change. Also, viewing the future isn't an exact thing for even Eldrad, must less other Farseers and especially that far into the future. Hell, if it was that exact you'd think Craftworld Iyanden would have seen Kraken long before it was too late.

And even if they were responsible (or at least a few of them), what exactly would they gain from it? How would their existence benefit them or their Craftworld? To create a race like the Tau would be a huge project for anyone. Creating the Ethereals to manage and guide the Tau race would be the easy path. But after that you would have to watch them carefully to ensure that they aren't wiped out by an external force, make sure that they stay true to the path you have laid before them and be on watch for any dissidents within their race (like Farsight). You'd need Eldar operating within the Tau Empire constantly to ensure that such things don't happen. Against, a huge investment of time and Eldar for something that may or may not come to pass.

As a Tau fan, I don't put a lot of faith in any theories of intervention on the part of other powers. I like my Tau the lucky underdog rather than the secret pawns of another power.


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## tau112 (Jun 30, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> First off, the Eldar cannot travel through a Warp Storm any more than anyone else can. I'm not even sure if a path of the Webway that went through a Warp Storm would be safe. Nor does the size of the craft have anything to do with successfully traveling through a Warp Storm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was Correcting Lord Anonymous in saying The Dark Eldar worship Slannesh, they do not. Also no one actually knows apart from a hell of books what is in the Black Library.


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

> 1. It does not say they have the same.


Almost the same though.



> 1b. It says the 1st Ethereral appearce in the late 39k or 38k the same as a the bug.


At the end of the 37th Millennium, a Q'orl swarm queen was stolen by humanoid aliens, who say they want to create a swarm resistant to chaos. 

At the End of the 37th Millennium, Ethereals appear on T'au





> 2. They NEVER MET!!!!!!


Of course the Q'orl and Tau didn't. They are on the opposite sides of the galaxy. They had to be, otherwise the Tau would realise what had happened.



> 4. Where, it described as eldar not humans?


Ralei speculates they were Elda rin his notes. Which is reasonable to assume, as there aren't many slender, tall humanoid aliens knocking around.

5. During a warp storm.[/QUOTE]

You are maing an inferrance which I'm not sure is there. I've got the codex here. All it says is weird lights in the sky and half glimpsed figures in the hills. Then, suddenly, a new species of tau appear son T'au, out of nowhere.



> 6. So what does that have to do with the Tau, and the laughing god only cares about the eldar.


I was suggesting that perhaps the Harlequins were the most likely candidates to have taken the swarm queen, as the Laughing God is particularly anti-chaos. yes, the harlies only care about protecitng the eldar, but perhaps they were doing research on Q'orl in order to figure out how to help defeat chaos. defeating chaos is the best way to protect the eldar surely? as chaos/slannesh is the one killing them all.



> 8. I have never read the craft world protecting the tau, quote Eldrad "I see a great future ahead of the Tau, and I feel oddly protective of them.


You never read it, and I never said it. I said taht Eldrad feels oddly protective of the Tau, and inferred that perhaps some of his fellow eldar might feel likewise. I never claimed the craftworlders had anything to do with the Tau.



> 10. The tau have NO WARPDRIVES, the dip in between deminsions and then pop out.


Tau have warp drives. They just can't get them to work properly without naviagtors and gellar fields.



> 12. So my cat stares at the wall does that mean there's something in the wall.


???????



> 13. SO there are extremly old humans does that mean they were engineered by an alien.


Yeah, but how many Humans have been around throughout human history, like Aun'Va has? 



> P.S. You were warned.


What did I need warnign about? people disagreeing with me on the internet? I think I am ok with taht, otherwise I wouldn't be here would I?


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

tau112 said:


> I was Correcting Lord Anonymous in saying The Dark Eldar worship Slannesh, they do not. Also no one actually knows apart from a hell of books what is in the Black Library.


It is supposed to contain the sum total knowledge of all Eldar knowledge on Chaos, and is supposed to be located in parts of the webway where time stands still, or runs backwards in some cases.

But otherwise yeah, we don't know much. But whatever is inside it must be awesome. Ahriman really wants it! 

Also, the webway was originally an old one network, which was expanded by the Eldar empire. Also, the webway would be able to bypass a warp storm incidentally, as the Labyrinth dimension is a dimension in between the warp and realspace.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

LordLucan said:


> Almost the same though.
> I quote LordLucan " They are the *EXACT*same", so which is it same or similar there are tons of example of animals having similar traits, Chameleons and Octapi.
> 
> 
> ...


Your saying 

P.S. Im going to avoid this thread before I start insulting people.


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## tau112 (Jun 30, 2010)

locustgate said:


> Your saying
> 
> P.S. Im going to avoid this thread before I start insulting people.


Please stay.


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## traitor_dice (Apr 1, 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordLucan 
Almost the same though.
I quote LordLucan " They are the EXACTsame", so which is it same or similar there are tons of example of animals having similar traits, Chameleons and Octapi.


At the end of the 37th Millennium, a Q'orl swarm queen was stolen by humanoid aliens, who say they want to create a swarm resistant to chaos. 

At the End of the 37th Millennium, Ethereals appear on T'au
To Damned close to create a new Sub-species

*wow, I never knew you were such an expert in the methods of creation of artificial life over 30,000 years in the future. enlighten us.*


Of course the Q'orl and Tau didn't. They are on the opposite sides of the galaxy. They had to be, otherwise the Tau would realise what had happened.
How the warp do you know.

*How the warp do you know hes wrong?*

Ralei speculates they were Elda rin his notes. Which is reasonable to assume, as there aren't many slender, tall humanoid aliens knocking around.
Yeah that's what I said they are ELDAR

*where here does he say that you didn't say they were eldar?*

You are maing an inferrance which I'm not sure is there. I've got the codex here. All it says is weird lights in the sky and half glimpsed figures in the hills. Then, suddenly, a new species of tau appear son T'au, out of nowhere.
A new SUB-Species

*The fact that he says "a new species of tau" already implies that the ethereal species is a sub category of the tau, you're just making a distinction of words.*

I was suggesting that perhaps the Harlequins were the most likely candidates to have taken the swarm queen, as the Laughing God is particularly anti-chaos. yes, the harlies only care about protecitng the eldar, but perhaps they were doing research on Q'orl in order to figure out how to help defeat chaos. defeating chaos is the best way to protect the eldar surely? as chaos/slannesh is the one killing them all.
So they made a new bug which turned into etherals......

*Not a new bug, they used a part of the old bug.*

You never read it, and I never said it. I said taht Eldrad feels oddly protective of the Tau, and inferred that perhaps some of his fellow eldar might feel likewise. I never claimed the craftworlders had anything to do with the Tau.
How do you know the craftworld feels protected it has never said All of cratworld what ever his is called feels protective of the Tau it was attributed to ONE man.
Tau have warp drives. They just can't get them to work properly without naviagtors and gellar fields.
It is NOT a WARP DRIVE, it does not go IN to the WARP!

*I haven't read the fluff for it myself, but it does sound to me like a warp drive, they are simply incapable of utilising it as intended due to their lack of navigators/psykers.*

Yeah, but how many Humans have been around throughout human history, like Aun'Va has? 
It just says he is the oldest tau it never says he is 5000 years old. 

*Where has anyone here said that it is stated that he is 5,000 years old?*

I apologise for the awkwardness of this post, I don't know how to quote a quote. I've bolded what I added.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

traitor_dice said:


> Yeah, but how many Humans have been around throughout humanhistory, like Aun'Va has? LORD
> 
> 
> *Where has anyone here said that it is stated that he is 5,000 years old?*YOU
> ...


He said it right there



> through·out   /θruˈaʊt/
> [throo-out]
> 
> –preposition
> ...


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## traitor_dice (Apr 1, 2011)

No, what he said was "1st etherial arived 4000-5000 years old". frankly I'm not certain of the intended meaning lol.


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

Forgive my lax terminology. I did not anticipate such detaile dinterrogation of every single word I said.

Yes, I was incorrect in calling the Q'orl and Ethereal organs identical. However, this does not exactly disprove the potential connection between Tau and Q'orl. Why would the writer of Xenology include a minor race which has a caste system and pheremone control similar to the Tau? The entire spirit of Xenology is for people to make connections. For isntance, the Umbra and Hrud have links, just as the Kroot and orks have links. The book has several of these binary linkages throughout, and with the other supporting circumstantial evidence, I think their is a compelling case for Tau tampering by some sort of powerful faction.

I refuse to categorically state the eldar stole the Q'orl queen, as if I did, other psoters would then claim 'Ralei is guessing' and dismiss my evidence off hand. However, the evidence is suggestive on its own, and doesn't need me championing it. The source categorically says those who took the queen were like humans, but were taller and slender. I think they are eldar, and there are not really any other candidates frankly.

Saying that the closing centuries of the 37th Millennium isn't long enough to modify a species seems to be an assumption again. We cannot be sure how long an advanced race with access to a realm where time can be slowed (ie, the webway) would take to modify a race, but I think the closeness of the two dates is indicative of some sort of relationship between the two dates. Again, why would the fluff writers specifically set these two events in the exact same time period?

On the point of how I know why an alien race would want to manipulate two races who never met each other in order to avoid two said races getting wind of their plans. I do not know in the sense that I have an authoritative truth on the matter. rather I inferred, as taht would be the logical thing to do if one was attempting to manipulate two species. Better that than trying to manipualte two races who were really close to each other, as eventually they'd meet each other and go 'Hang on a minute...'

I also never claimed they made a new bug which turned into the ethereals. You are being rather reductive of my argument in this manner; trying to simply my suggestion into sounding unlikely. However, what was actually said in xenology was that the eldar wanted the queen to make a swarm uncorrupted. Now, the Q'orl word all of their interactions based on the hive structure. they call the Emperor a corpse man-queen iirc. Therefore, them explaining that the Eldar wanted to create a swarm resistant to chaos, that doesn't mean literally. They call all factions and armies swarms. That's because they have an alien lexicon. Also, look at the evidence. These aliens took a queen to make a swarm resistant to chaos. And yet, there are no anti-chaos Q'orl super-swarms mentioned in the fluff at all. However, there is a race who were recently upgraded with a new pheremone-controlling sub-species. I know you are resistant to this idea on principle, but the logical jump is not that massive.

Also, I concede my point about the Craftworlders. We only have Eldrad's statement suggesting they feel protective for them. However, this point was only an incidental one of mine, and tangential to the main argument, so I'm not concerned about giving ground there.

Oh, and Tau do use warp drives. Their drives make short hops into warp space. BFG armada explains further that they build warp drives, but that they can't enter the warp properly, because they lack the navigator gene which allows them to navigate down there. However, they still enter the warp's 'shallows' as it were. You can't simply say they have no warp drive jsut because they can't do deep into the warp. That's like claiming that no ship had a propeller driven engine until submarines were invented, because they could only skim the surface of the sea before then...

Tau'Va is described as being present for 'much of Tau history' (as explained in the Tau empire book and that no tau can remember a time when he wasn't ruling the Empire. This implies he is older than every other Tau by a significant margin. No other tau are old enough to remember him as a child, or as less than the highest office. This suggests a staggering age gap. Something is keeping him alive well past his natural lifespan. perhaps it is the influence of the Paradox of Duality, but the theory of outside intervention is still viable.

In summary, I merely think Eldar/Laughing god intervention in the tau species is the msot likely explanation for their unusual good fortune, and the sudden appearance of an entirely new sub-species into their race out of nowhere. because something has been interfering, and it can't have been the C'tan, and taht doesn't leave many other candidates.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

First off, Tau'va is the Greater Good in the language of the Tau, _Aun'va_ is their senior most Ethereal. Second, there is nothing anywhere to suggest that Aun'va has always been around. The exact quote you've stated is:



> He has counselled the greatest leaders of the Tau for longer than any can recall, and his hand can be seen at work for much of Tau history.


At first glance, yes it looks like he could be incredibly old. However, the statement is rather vague. When it says 'much of Tau history' does that mean the entirety of Tau history since the emergence of the Ethereals or is it just in recent centuries? It's the same with the 'greatest leaders' part. Is it just recent leaders and heroes like Shadowsun, Farsight and Puretide or is it also those from long before the Tau began to step into the stars. The rest of the Codex entry for him speaks only of his recent accomplishments, nothing else to suggest that he has always been around. If tried to find people that remember the world's oldest person's childhood, chances are you aren't going to find any. So saying that there's no one that remember Aun'va as a child, especially in a short lived race like the Tau, is a pointless claim. Also, I have heard people suggest that Aun'va may be akin to rumored reason why Farsight is still alive for so long, that the name Aun'o'T'au'Acaya'Va'Denta has become a title for the senior most Ethereal. Perhaps the first Aun'va was that first Ethereal that brokered peace between the future Earth and Fire Castes, and he eventually became the oldest and most beloved of the Ethereals. But when he died, the Ethereals felt that he was so beloved that his death would be a terrible blow to the spiritual side of their people. In secret, they chose among their wisest of Ethereals to cast aside their name and identity to become Aun'va and continue leading the Empire. Perhaps that's the real meaning of his title, Master of the Undying Spirit. The body dies but the spirit lives on through the next generation.

As to the Tau luck that has kept them alive, it's really only been the Warp Storm that kept them safe from the Imperium for several thousand years. If you read fluff on recent history (in galactic terms) of the Tau, a lot of their luck has been more circumstantial than anything. The splinters of Hive Fleet Kraken and the minor Hive Fleet, Gorgon bloodied the Tau, costing them several worlds, their first encounter with the Dark Eldar claimed the lives of an entire Tau world, not to mention several costly clashes with the Imperium and Orks. As to the Imperium and their encounters with the Tau, they were ill prepared in the Damocles Gulf Crusade for the tactics and technology of the Tau and it was the same with the Tau. Since than, the few major clashes between the two has ultimately either led to the Imperium driving the Tau back but without the manpower to further push into Tau space or the Tau defeating the Imperials and fortifying and/or taking the world they were fighting over. Why they haven't outright destroyed the Tau which let's face, the Imperium could if they wanted to, is because the Tau are a minor threat to them. In fact, of all the races in the TT, the Tau are the smallest threat on the Imperium's radar. Hell, much of the Imperium knows nothing of the Tau. A good example of this is in the Koronus Expanse, a region north of the Eye of Terror. In the Expanse, there are Kroot who did come from the Eastern Fringe as evident by the fact that they have the Kroot Rifles that have been upgraded with Tau tech. However, the notion that these aliens have come from some distant part of galaxy is actually laughed at by the majority of people living there.

The Warp Storm that protected them could have been created by someone or something else but it could have just as easily been a random, natural occurrence. And if it was created by outside influence, there's nothing to say it was created to protect the Tau. It could have been an unintended side effect of a powerful Chaos spell (or the result of a failed one) by individuals that weren't even aware of the aliens. Also, there are at least three Artefact worlds within Tau space. For all we know, there could have been another alien civilization in the region that had yet to be found by the Imperium. Perhaps they had been the remnants of an alien empire wiped out by the Imperium in the past and created the Warp Storm to protect themselves but later succumbed to a catastrophe or perhaps one brought about by the Warp Storm.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

LordLucan said:


> We cannot be sure how long an advanced race with access to a realm where time can be slowed (ie, the webway) would take to modify a race,


As far as I'm aware time flows normally in the webway. The Black Library might have different rules but as I've said earlier in this thread, the Harlequins don't have specifically more access to that area than other Eldar. 



> Tau'Va is described as being present for 'much of Tau history' (as explained in the Tau empire book and that no tau can remember a time when he wasn't ruling the Empire. This implies he is older than every other Tau by a significant margin. No other tau are old enough to remember him as a child, or as less than the highest office. This suggests a staggering age gap. Something is keeping him alive well past his natural lifespan. perhaps it is the influence of the Paradox of Duality, but the theory of outside intervention is still viable.


The fact that no one can remember a time when he didn't rule, given the Tau lifespans, only really requires that he's been in charge for 40 years or so. I have no idea how Tau choose leaders but I imagine it's quite possible for the leader to be quite young. 

The theory of outside intervention is certainly viable but Occam's Razor says it's not the best. The idea of a naturally long life and advanced medical treatments is much simpler than alien intervention.



> In summary, I merely think Eldar/Laughing god intervention in the tau species is the msot likely explanation for their unusual good fortune, and the sudden appearance of an entirely new sub-species into their race out of nowhere. because something has been interfering, and it can't have been the C'tan, and taht doesn't leave many other candidates.


There's still really nothing that says something has definitely been interfering with the Tau's development. Luck alone explains why they've been this successful (lucky enough to get GW to bother with them) thus far. 


Just answer this question. What do the Eldar gain from creating, guiding and protecting the Tau that they could not get from using those resources for some other task?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Just answer this question. What do the Eldar gain from creating, guiding and protecting the Tau that they could not get from using those resources for some other task?


They get to be wiped out by yet another race, thus speeding up Yned, is that how you spell it, which well then defeat slaanesh....after the eldar are all DEAD, just like Glen Beck says.


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

MEQ: There are areas in the webway where time can slow to a crawl, and even areas where it can flow backwards (this is from older lore, but I don't think it has been retconned, so its still valid). The Harlequins have greater access to the webway due to the fact they have a direct link with their God, who knows all the passages in the webway. They are also the faction which acts as intermediaries between Eldar factions.

I am persuaded somewhat by Akat's rather brilliant take upon Aun'Va, as it is rather compelling. Though I maintain Aun'Va is intended to be a mysteriosu character (the paradox of duality being an interesting piece of tech with a mysterious origin). However MEQ I don't think we should rely upon Occam's razor to justify this position, when applied to 40K, as really that should only be applied to a system which isn't creatively invented by writers who want sinister conspiracies and mysteries to riddle their works. 

In real life, events might be unrelated, but this is 40K, where there is a sinister conspiracy behind every turn, and nobody can be trusted.

Finally, I do not know why an alien race would interfere with the tau, or why certain eldar might be involved. Eldar are not a homogenous group, and the background often points out how fickle and perplexing many eldar schemes are to humans. Eldar have always been depicted as mysterious, enigmatic figures who do things based upon complex and unfathomable reasoning. Perhaps the Eldar have forseen a particular future where the Eldar are in transcendance, but in that future the Tau are a powerful faciton, and eliminate one of their rivals at some point? perhaps the Eldar or Cegorach want to use the Tau as a form of civilisational glue to bond the disparate younger races together, in preparation for the rise of the C'tan? Maybe they did it for shits and giggles? maybe they wanted to create a race resistant to chaos influence, as an experiement to see if chaos resistance could be genetically engineered? The eldar are supposed to have very long term goals in mind (as they can see the future and all that jazz).

All I was saying was that it was an interesting coincidence that two similar races were interfered with in the same time period; one was robbed of their pheremone-producing ruler, who could give birth to loads of pheremone-producing ruling class drones (like the one dissected in xenology. Note that its pheremones worked on humans too...). The other race, which had a brilliant sense of smell, suddenly gained a new sub-species of pheremone producing beings, that essentially took over control of their race and completely changed the coarse of their history. (again, note that in one of the BL Ultramarine books, an ethereal began to have an influence upon the human governor, in a similar way to how darvus was influenced by the Q'orl prisoner)

I just don't understand why this is so controversial. I'm not making staggering leaps here. I have admitted to and scaled back some of my more speculative points, but the core argument seems sound frankly.


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

locustgate said:


> They get to be wiped out by yet another race, thus speeding up Yned, is that how you spell it, which well then defeat slaanesh....after the eldar are all DEAD, just like Glen Beck says.


Ynnead is a Craftworlder plan, as it involves unleashing a new god from the infinity circuit, which is a network used only by Craftworlders. Also, some craftworlds don't want to create an undead god; they want to regain their empire. Craftworlds such as Biel-Tann and Sam-haim.

Ynnead is by no means the universal plan agreed upon by all Eldar. The ultimate plan of the harlequins is a mystery, but apparently it is 'horrifying' according to some sources.

Why is everyone treating the Eldar as if they are a homogenous mass which only has one goal. For all we know, perhaps the Ethereals were created by a rogue factions of mad eldar scientists, or were aprt of a cabal scheme to topple chaos or the C'tan.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

LordLucan said:


> MEQ: There are areas in the webway where time can slow to a crawl, and even areas where it can flow backwards (this is from older lore, but I don't think it has been retconned, so its still valid). The Harlequins have greater access to the webway due to the fact they have a direct link with their God, who knows all the passages in the webway. They are also the faction which acts as intermediaries between Eldar factions.


Huh. I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the new info.



> However MEQ I don't think we should rely upon Occam's razor to justify this position, when applied to 40K, as really that should only be applied to a system which isn't creatively invented by writers who want sinister conspiracies and mysteries to riddle their works.


Just because this universe is invented or has numerous conspiracies doesn't mean Occam's razor doesn't work. An invented universe should still conform to logic, and I feel that 40k does (even if it's only an internally consistent one). And in most cases the given conspiracy is far more logical and simple than any other explanation that could be crafted which means it still fulfills the razor, even if it isn't the most obvious answer. 



> Eldar are not a homogenous group, and the background often points out how fickle and perplexing many eldar schemes are to humans. Eldar have always been depicted as mysterious, enigmatic figures who do things based upon complex and unfathomable reasoning.


Eldar schemes are actually based on very easily understood reasoning. What is best for there race. That is all they seek to achieve it becomes complex to the people of the Imperium simply because they do not have access to all the facts that the Eldar base their decision. 



> Perhaps the Eldar have forseen a particular future where the Eldar are in transcendance, but in that future the Tau are a powerful faciton, and eliminate one of their rivals at some point?


This is perhaps the silliest argument I have seen on these forums. Why would you help a race to achieve it's own greatness BECAUSE it will then pose a threat to you? How does creating a future threat help save the lives of Eldar?



> perhaps the Eldar or Cegorach want to use the Tau as a form of civilisational glue to bond the disparate younger races together, in preparation for the rise of the C'tan?


Why not simply preempt the re-awakening of the C'tan? The Etherals appeared before the C'tan began re-awakening and after the Eldar had literally millions of years to finish them off. If Cegorach or the Eldar had put the effort they will have to put into protecting the Tau into eliminating the C'tan before they awoke then I think they could have done it.



> maybe they wanted to create a race resistant to chaos influence, as an experiement to see if chaos resistance could be genetically engineered?


That's certainly a possibility but how does it help them? They can't engineer themselves without getting rid of everything that makes them Eldar, they can't engineer humanity as we're just too numerous. So what good does that experiment do?



> I just don't understand why this is so controversial. I'm not making staggering leaps here. I have admitted to and scaled back some of my more speculative points, but the core argument seems sound frankly.


It's not controversial and I don't necessarily disagree with you, I'm simply pointing out what I feel to be flaws in your position. It is simply not necessary for the Tau to have been engineered and serves no purpose that I can see. It is an interesting idea certainly but not one that I think adds anything to the Tau or explains anything that cannot be otherwise explained.


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## traitor_dice (Apr 1, 2011)

I think it actually makes sense for the eldar to have engineered the tau, especially when you consider the cabal. the cabal wanted to kill of humanity to starve the chaos gods right? what better way to do that than to create a race that doesn't feed chaos to then go kill some humans?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

traitor_dice said:


> I think it actually makes sense for the eldar to have engineered the tau, especially when you consider the cabal. the cabal wanted to kill of humanity to starve the chaos gods right? what better way to do that than to create a race that doesn't feed chaos to then go kill some humans?


The Cabal was not the Eldar. It was an organisation composing of many xenos species. We only know of a single Eldar that was connected to the Cabal.

And as I said previously, the Tau are not the kind of species you would create if you intended to wipe out humanity.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Cabal was not the Eldar. It was an organisation composing of many xenos species. We only know of a single Eldar that was connected to the Cabal.
> 
> And as I said previously, the Tau are not the kind of species you would create if you intended to wipe out humanity.


Quite so. If you wanted to target humanity specifically, there are easier ways to go about it. 

Not to mention the eldar had ample oppurtunity to eliminate humanity, and didn`t take that chance over the couple million year window that the oppurtunity was there. Had they seen where humanity would end up, I imagine they`d have acted differently. 

I still don`t see why the tau need to have been created by someone. Like I said earlier, they seem like the kind of race who can rely on their own ingenuity and talent, and there is no real reason to believe they had help. To me it just seems like wishful thinking on the part of a few fans. 

Other races achieved dominance with far less. We still have no time frame on how quickly necrontyr reached their zenith pre c`tan. :dunno:


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> I still don`t see why the tau need to have been created by someone. Like I said earlier, they seem like the kind of race who can rely on their own ingenuity and talent, and there is no real reason to believe they had help. To me it just seems like wishful thinking on the part of a few fans.


Because they don't believe that it is possible to be lucky and/or have tech booms.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

So little faith in the xenos... 

Foolish humans, we are the future...


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## traitor_dice (Apr 1, 2011)

True, the Cabal was not eldar, but some members were Eldar weren't they? so what if the Eldar seen when the ethereals appeared was a cabal member?

seems to me that a minority like the cabal might try something sneaky like that to kill of humanity, though it is definitely a slow method.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

traitor_dice said:


> True, the Cabal was not eldar, but some members were Eldar weren't they?


Maybe you should read others post before you post as Child said there was ONE eldar. 



> so what if the Eldar seen when the ethereals appeared was a cabal member?


wait....WHAT?



> seems to me that a minority like the cabal might try something sneaky like that to kill of humanity, though it is definitely a slow method


We don't know if the cabal even survived the HH. They had seen that if Horus won he would kill humanity and weaken chaos, if Horus lost, emp survives, then humanity will plunge the galaxy into ####+ of years of war and chaos and thus strengthening chaos.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

traitor_dice said:


> I think it actually makes sense for the eldar to have engineered the tau, especially when you consider the cabal. the cabal wanted to kill of humanity to starve the chaos gods right? what better way to do that than to create a race that doesn't feed chaos to then go kill some humans?


No. That would be a race of blanks. The Tau are not blanks. They have tiny presence in the Warp. Hence the mental properties have no effect on them and the Chaos Gods have little interest in them. That being said, if they were blanks no form of Chaos sorcery could be cast in their presence. That is certainly not the case.



traitor_dice said:


> so what if the Eldar seen when the ethereals appeared was a cabal member?


WTF? What Eldar? There was no Eldar when the Ethereals first appeared.


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

MEQ: can't fault your reasoning there. Well put. I think it's a little strong to dismiss my first bit of conjecture, about the tau being neccessary in some as yet unforeseen way to preserving the Eldar. This has presidence too. The Eldar refused to destroy the Culexus Temple, even though it is a massive threat to them. They do this because, somehow, destroying the Culexus will cause the destruction of Alaitoc. No explanation or reasoning is given for why this would happen, merely taht the farseer's see this.

The future is always changing, and the slightest change can alter destiny. The eldar's ultimate goal is protect themselves yes, but we have no idea what role the Tau play in this. I'm not saying Tau are essential in the survival of the eldar, but that they have some purpose. The Eldar treat all races as tools for their own goals, and I just think the Tau could be a pawn for the eldar. 

However, back to my main point.

I maintain that 'chance' or 'luck' are not the simplest explanation for why the Ethereals appeared out of nowhere in M37. There is no mention of the Ethereals evolving those diamond organs over a long period of time, or indeed any mention of Ethereals before the legend of their arrival in M37. 

However, if we assume the legend of the arrival of the Ethereals was bullpoop made up by the Ethereal propaganda ministry to make them sound awesome, then their 'sudden' appearance makes sense. Perhaps in fact the Ethereals changed Tau society over a long period of time, in a more boring gradual reform. Then it'd make sense for the Ethereals to paint themselves as simply appeairng and making the tau brilliant in one fell swoop. Kinda like how dictators retroactively claim they are related to national heroes or whatever.

However, if the story is true and they just appeared, then something must have happened to bring them about. I just selected the most interesting and oddly coincidental incident which occured around the same period. You have to admit its suspicious. 

Also, nobody has explained what the eldar did with their newly acquired Q'orl queen.

I've not got any problem with people disagreeing with my position, just so long as they then have a different explanation for things, rather than merely denying the connections. I appreciate taht you are providing me with some alternate theories. this is all rather interesting.

I personally like the Tau/Eldar link potential, as it ties the tau in with the rest of the 40K races more, and makes them seem less like aliens from another franchise bolted onto 40K.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

LordLucan said:


> MEQ: can't fault your reasoning there. Well put. I think it's a little strong to dismiss my first bit of conjecture, about the tau being neccessary in some as yet unforeseen way to preserving the Eldar. This has presidence too. The Eldar refused to destroy the Culexus Temple, even though it is a massive threat to them. They do this because, somehow, destroying the Culexus will cause the destruction of Alaitoc. No explanation or reasoning is given for why this would happen, merely taht the farseer's see this.


Yes in that they did not destroy something they didn't create something, there is a huge difference between choosing not to blow something up and making something.



> Also, nobody has explained what the eldar did with their newly acquired Q'orl queen.
> 
> I've not got any problem with people disagreeing with my position, just so long as they then have a different explanation for things, rather than merely denying the connections. I appreciate taht you are providing me with some alternate theories. this is all rather interesting


DE explination, well...do I have to say what they did to her.....wait it's you im talking to so yes. They rapped and tortured her then they ate her soul like it was pocky.

Eldar pirate, they wanted a trophy.

Eldar, same as above.

THe Etherial appearnce.

1 They come from the future to speed up the tau's evolution, the lights and figures, them porting.

2They were always there just in hidding and the lights, they were attacked by another tribe but managed to form an allience.

3 same as above but the lights were FROM A FING WARP STORM!!!!!!!!





> I personally like the Tau/Eldar link potential, as it ties the tau in with the rest of the 40K races more, and makes them seem less like aliens from another franchise bolted onto 40K.


No it makes them completly diffrenct from the rest, Eldar, necron, orks created WAY BEFORE humanity crawled left earth, crons by the ctan.
Nids, well unkown but comes from a completly diffrent galaxy.

And please tell me what were the Tau 'bolted' onto 40k from, star trek, wait yeah I remember blue aliens, star wars blue aliens and milk to, SG blue aliens, avatar blue aliens, aliens blue alien action figure, halo mFING BLUE ALIENS!!!!!!!! Everysingle space scifi I can remember has blue aliens..
in none of those are there aliens that are blue, use plasma based weapons, A.I., hover craft, have a rigid caste system and offer to join them before they nuke you.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

> However, if we assume the legend of the arrival of the Ethereals was bullpoop made up by the Ethereal propaganda ministry to make them sound awesome, then their 'sudden' appearance makes sense. Perhaps in fact the Ethereals changed Tau society over a long period of time, in a more boring gradual reform. Then it'd make sense for the Ethereals to paint themselves as simply appeairng and making the tau brilliant in one fell swoop. Kinda like how dictators retroactively claim they are related to national heroes or whatever.


That is an interesting idea and certainly one I had never considered before. But it is an interesting idea. I've always had this idea that the tribe that became the Ethereals were outcasts of the other tribes (perhaps they were mutants, marked as 'wrong' by their fellows) and banding together to survive away from the others. Over generations, they developed their spiritual beliefs and when the other tribes went to war, they chose to act to stop the senseless fighting. I just don't like some outside force coming in and creating the Ethereals for some grandiose plan.

The only idea I've had in regards to the notion of outside force involved in the development of the Tau is that when the Enslaver Plague ended the war between the legions of the C'tan and the Old Ones and their creations, the last of the Old Ones fled to the eastern edge of the galaxy. Those last few Old Ones decided to leave one last legacy on galaxy, seeding the gene-pool of dozens and dozens of worlds, perhaps even with their own genetic material so that in a way they would continue to live on beyond their impending destruction. One such world was the young world of T'au which lead to the eventually evolution of the Tau race from among the planet's early lifeforms. But they are not the only such races. Others have come before them, some long extinct, others just not prominent members of the galaxy, and in time others will rise up on the galactic stage.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

LordLucan said:


> The Eldar refused to destroy the Culexus Temple, even though it is a massive threat to them. They do this because, somehow, destroying the Culexus will cause the destruction of Alaitoc. No explanation or reasoning is given for why this would happen, merely taht the farseer's see this.


This is actually a very good point. A strong and definite example of the Eldar taking short term losses in favour of preventing long term (and greater) losses. However it should also be noted however that in this case the Eldar are actually reducing the amount of work they have to do. In creating, directing and protecting the Tau they would be expanding a great more energy (and taking short term casualties both fighting against and protecting the Tau) than they would be by not doing so. Either there is a HUGE payoff for the Eldar (which I don't see as likely) or they aren't involved. 



> I maintain that 'chance' or 'luck' are not the simplest explanation for why the Ethereals appeared out of nowhere in M37. There is no mention of the Ethereals evolving those diamond organs over a long period of time, or indeed any mention of Ethereals before the legend of their arrival in M37.


There is very little mention of anything in Tau history before the Etherals arrived. Correct me if I'm wrong but the Tau didn't even have a recorded history before this time. It's quite possible that there have always been five tribes of Tau and that one simply went into hiding (because they were passive and perhaps physically inferior) and reemerged latter to preserve their race. 



> However, if we assume the legend of the arrival of the Ethereals was bullpoop made up by the Ethereal propaganda ministry to make them sound awesome, then their 'sudden' appearance makes sense. Perhaps in fact the Ethereals changed Tau society over a long period of time, in a more boring gradual reform. Then it'd make sense for the Ethereals to paint themselves as simply appeairng and making the tau brilliant in one fell swoop. Kinda like how dictators retroactively claim they are related to national heroes or whatever.


It would certainly make sense to me to suggest that certain aspects of their re-appearance were either made up or crafted at the time by the Etherals. After all the best way to gain a captive audience is to wow them with something. A light show and mysterious arrival is a good way to pull this off. 



> Also, nobody has explained what the eldar did with their newly acquired Q'orl queen.


Assuming it was the Eldar (which I will admit is most likely) we still don't know which faction it was. Based on their behaviour I would suggest the DE
as being the most likely faction involved (they actually pulled a very similar move on the Tau in their newest codex). If this is the case than experimentation and torture would be the most likely uses of the queen. Perhaps we have yet to see the results. Perhaps the DE merely used it as a private show. 



> I personally like the Tau/Eldar link potential, as it ties the tau in with the rest of the 40K races more, and makes them seem less like aliens from another franchise bolted onto 40K.


I really don't think this potential link makes the Tau better suited to 40k. If anything it makes them look like total pawns. The Tau don't really fit into 40k, and I don't think they're supposed to, but they certainly don't appear to be taken from another franchise. 



traitor_dice said:


> True, the Cabal was not eldar, but some members were Eldar weren't they? so what if the Eldar seen when the ethereals appeared was a cabal member?
> 
> seems to me that a minority like the cabal might try something sneaky like that to kill of humanity, though it is definitely a slow method.


By the time the Etherals appeared the Cabal has lost. They made their bid to take out humanity during the Heresy and it failed. Nothing they can do now would make much of a difference.


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

Mmm... that bit about them being in hiding is interesting, but then again if they were developing their pheremone organs at that time, why did they not try to take over sooner? Maybe they didn't realise their organs could influence other Tau? or maybe they initially were like a monastic order that didn't want to intervene in other Tau lives, but after the Mont'ka, they saw that their brothers and sisters would kill themselves unless something was done.

If that is the case, what's with the weird hilltop lightshow they put on before arriving? Are the Ethereals taht douche that they'd put on a firework display just to herald their arrival? 

the DE are a possibility as Q'orl kidnappers I suppose, but that doesn't neccessary preclude harlie involvement either remember, as harlies can accompany DE raiders. Looking at the DE timeline, mid way through M37, there was a war agaisnt the Thousand Sons to stop them brekaing into Commorragh, and the harlies helped the DE keep them out. Later in the millennia, Vect destroys Shaadom, and Fabius is trained by hameonculi in their horrible arts. Now these likely have no link between them, but I'm just speculating what the DE could be up to at this time period. The Q'orl incident seems very similar to Urien's deal with the Tau now I think about it...


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

LordLucan said:


> Mmm... that bit about them being in hiding is interesting, but then again if they were developing their pheremone organs at that time, why did they not try to take over sooner? Maybe they didn't realise their organs could influence other Tau? or maybe they initially were like a monastic order that didn't want to intervene in other Tau lives, but after the Mont'ka, they saw that their brothers and sisters would kill themselves unless something was done.


Entirely possible. Perhaps centuries earlier the first Tau with the pheromone mutation it was underdeveloped and caused confusion and disorientation to normal Tau around them, forcing them into seclusion. And since there would only be other Tau with this mutation around, the gene would become stronger through the successive generations. So that when they came to help, their pheromones were much more powerful than those earlier generations.



> If that is the case, what's with the weird hilltop lightshow they put on before arriving? Are the Ethereals taht douche that they'd put on a firework display just to herald their arrival?


That could be any number of things. Like I said before, there were other space-faring alien races that region. The light show could have been a prolonged naval battle between two such groups. Or it could have been caused by a Warp Anomaly (or even perhaps some activity in the Warp Storm itself). Of course it could also be just an exaggeration for the sake of the legend.


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## tau112 (Jun 30, 2010)

So is it possible for tau to be made from de? or is just...


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

tau112 said:


> So is it possible for tau to be made from de? or is just...


Just like eldar NO! It's possible they kidnapped the queen, MPO they rapped and ate her, not in that order. Just because two things happen close together doesn't mean they are related.

I.E.
January 18 – Eastern Air Lines shuts down after 62 years, citing financial problems.
January 18 - Im born.
Does that mean I caused the airline to shut down by my birth....NO!


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

LordLucan said:


> Mmm... that bit about them being in hiding is interesting, but then again if they were developing their pheremone organs at that time, why did they not try to take over sooner? Maybe they didn't realise their organs could influence other Tau? or maybe they initially were like a monastic order that didn't want to intervene in other Tau lives, but after the Mont'ka, they saw that their brothers and sisters would kill themselves unless something was done.


I think that (the second idea) is probably exactly what happened.



> If that is the case, what's with the weird hilltop lightshow they put on before arriving? Are the Ethereals taht douche that they'd put on a firework display just to herald their arrival?


As I said in my previous post, setting off a light show to herald your arrival is an excellent way to make yourself appear more powerful. Think of it this way: you are a Tau of the Fire caste, you are at war with all other Tau on the planet. Suddenly a group of Tau that do not look like you appear and ask to talk about peace. How likely are you to listen to them? I'd say not very. On the other hand if mysterious figures appear from a fantastic light show offering to make all your troubles go away, do you think the odds of you listening have improved? I'd say so. 



> the DE are a possibility as Q'orl kidnappers I suppose, but that doesn't neccessary preclude harlie involvement either remember, as harlies can accompany DE raiders.


That doesn't mean anything though. There is no reason to believe that the Harlequins are more likely to experiment and create the Tau.


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## tau112 (Jun 30, 2010)

Unless an unkown other speicies from the tau themselves seeing the way they were going created a sub species themselves with the help of some outside force?


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

tau112 said:


> Unless an unkown other speicies from the tau themselves seeing the way they were going created a sub species themselves with the help of some outside force?


What? That suggestion does make any sense. At the time of the coming of the Ethereals the Tau were at a primitive level of technology. I'm not sure what exactly their technology level was but they had discovered black powder and were using in their weapons. So they would have in a post-medieval age. But still, why would they approach an alien force (and how for that matter) to create the Ethereals?

But ultimately you're forgetting the Tau evolve more rapidly than humanity. By the time the Ethereals appeared, those Tau living high in the mountains that would become the first of the Air Caste, possessed thin membranes that allowed them to glide and ride the thermals. As to why each Caste has evolved differently, a large part of it has to do with the fact that in the Caste system, they can only breed within their Caste. They are preforming the simplest form of genetic engineering. By having warriors breed only with warriors, the ideal physical traits for warriors become reinforced through the successive generations.


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