# The Last 2 Primarchs



## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

I know, I know, they don't really say much about them... it's like they exist, but not really. I am also aware that the reason they are there is so that people can create their own legions and say it is led by a primarch of their own design.

But how about this:

Do you think in order to add new fluff that GW would actualy have the primarchs come back either through the fiction or in the next edition? It would be sure to be a big $ maker, and lets face it - that's what motivates them. I would assume one to be chaos, the other a loyalist. It would be a great scene seeing a 10,000 year old primarch seeing his corpse father for the first time.


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## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

The last 2 Primarchs are not mysteries. They are likely dead, or have both fallen to Chaos.

All the SM codexes list the last two legions as being excummunicated, and quote "expunged from imperial records" that means they did exist and something very terrible either happened to them, or they were the cause of said terrible thing...

Its not 100% certain, obviously there are other possibilities but, not likely IMO.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I don't recall them being excommunicated, though it does say they have been expunged from Imperial records.

The known traitor legions, however, have been "Exocommunicate Traitoris", though.

For all we know the last two primarchs could have died on their planets. Keep in mind that while the babies were super-human, they were still mortal. If one fell into the ocean or into a volcano or a world simply without air, they would have likely died.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Prince Endymion said:


> The last 2 Primarchs are not mysteries. They are likely dead, or have both fallen to Chaos.
> 
> All the SM codexes list the last two legions as being excummunicated, and quote "expunged from imperial records" that means they did exist and something very terrible either happened to them, or they were the cause of said terrible thing...
> 
> Its not 100% certain, obviously there are other possibilities but, not likely IMO.


While that may be true, GW has gone back and changed history before. The "star child" being a good example, and that 1/2 assed explanation of the squats demise being another.

I think if they wanted to boost dragging sales they could resort to this w/o it being the last death throws of GW. I think they will have an "end time", but that will be when the company is going out of bussiness anyway. This could keep people buying and playing.


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## ejacobs (Sep 27, 2009)

Loyalist and Traitor, all the Primarchs had one thing in common: when face to face with the Emperor, their father, they swore loyalty to him. And what would happen if two did not? They would be erradicated, erased, expunged. Best to be left a mystery than record of failure by the immortal Emperor.

E


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## IronFortress (Aug 16, 2009)

There must be something more to just not being loyal to the Emperor or turning to Chaos which would warrant such extreme sanction...

Those Primarchs must somehow be a threat to the foundation of the Imperium and to the Space Marines as a whole.

Loyalty in it of itself could not be the only reason for it. Look at Horus, people still remember him...


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## Samir_Duran (Apr 6, 2009)

My theory was always, that the emperor or Guiliman hid them for some reason, maybe for their own sake, or for the sake of their mission. don't take me wrong, i respect what it was in fiction, that dorn, walking in the imperial pallace looked up to the statues of the two lost primarch's and that both of them were damaged indicating that something bad has happened. i also love the vision that hosus had about damaging one of the primarch's pods, the tvelveth if i remember right. at least, the statues indicate, that their legions were known, and if i rememb er correctly they still remain in the imperial hall...

Anyways, I don't belive that gw will realese any information at all about them. it's for YOU to create these legions... i created my own legion, foremally known as Azure Serpents, now as Infinite Purple Serpents... it's just like that


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## CaptianEzekyleAbbadon (Feb 6, 2009)

i think that they probably have ended up getting lost in the warp or something like that, and have now become chaos. or maybe you jus have to make up the last two for your self.


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## Malakor (Apr 22, 2009)

When Horus was experiencing the past during his 'healing' on Davin he saw the primarchs in their birthing tubes. While he was there he supposedly put a crack in one of them (primarch 11 I believe) before the warp incident threw them all into the corners of the universe. It says he felt:
'the untapped glories that might have lain ahead for what grew within, but knowing that they would never come to pass' in Horus Rising.
What would likely account for one of them. I'd be very surprised if GW ever find the final one (primarch 2) but you never know...


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## matty570 (Jun 14, 2007)

I always wondered whether they would re introduce one of the lost primarchs through either nids or tau. The former being through the gene pool side of things (I cant remember the name exactly) but essentially absorbing his essence. And with tau the lost primarch working to support the greater good, not knowing his tre destiny.

Although I do agree that it is unlikely for them to ever bring them about.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

ejacobs said:


> Loyalist and Traitor, all the Primarchs had one thing in common: when face to face with the Emperor, their father, they swore loyalty to him. And what would happen *if two did not*? They would be erradicated, erased, expunged. Best to be left a mystery than record of failure by the immortal Emperor.
> 
> E



http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Angron

angron never did swear fealty to the emperor


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## Malakor (Apr 22, 2009)

Fallen is quite right about that, the Emperor teleported Angron off the surface of the planet, preventing him from dying amongst the gladiators whom he had led the rebellion with.
Angron in fact rather the hated the Emperor for that act making it easy for Horus to convince him into Rebellion against the Emperor and the Legions who had criticised the World Eaters.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

ejacobs said:


> Loyalist and Traitor, all the Primarchs had one thing in common: when face to face with the Emperor, their father, they swore loyalty to him. And what would happen if two did not? They would be erradicated, erased, expunged. Best to be left a mystery than record of failure by the immortal Emperor.
> 
> E


Angron refused to follow the emperor at first, he was not destroyed


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## Samir_Duran (Apr 6, 2009)

As i remember, Leman Russ have beaten Emperor in many competitions but he remained loyal... I think it was just a matter of principles...

As for the Tau-supporting Primarch, oh boy, that would be SOOOOOOOOOOO wicked for the imperium... and would propably be it's end.

I still support the secrecy of the two primarch's and their legions... as for my legion, they were supposed to "oversee" the Adpetus mechanicus and wait for the avakening of the Machine God, as Emperor knew who he really was... And also, becouse of the crack in the pod ( in my fluff it was a fact) the primarch got mutated much like Sanguinus had ( he has venom fangs like snakes do) and for such thing, The emperor, leman Russ, Rogal Dorn and later, Roboute Guiliman were the only primarchs that knew of their existance ( not mentioning the traitor legions, as my legion was one of the first to stand against them) By now, only the AdMech know about them, as they have a really close bond, and the legion reamerged from depths of the space as the current so called chapter. 


It's like that, you devise your own legion as you like... They both can be traitors, both loyalist, renegade ( not chaos not imperial) or just extinct as such! Anyways, their role is undefined in the cosmic order and are "lost to us" as Rogal stated. It's really sad, it sometimes even makes me cry, i love the backstory of the two lost legions, the two stars, that crumbled before they even had the chance to shine.


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## LuciusTheSwordsman (Feb 17, 2008)

Didn't Dorn say something about the two lost primarch's when he was talking to Malcador? X3 something about they are lost to us now.


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## Smrtubija (Sep 14, 2009)

one of the lost primarch could be sigmar from WHFB


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

I've heard all manner of theories on this. Like the one Smrt just proposed. Supposedly WHFB is taking place on a world within the 40K universe but cut off by warp storms. Sigmar supposedly was one of the Primarchs and ended up on this world before the storms happened, but who's to say this is true right?

Now I like the idea of these missing primarchs. I created my own tale behind the second. That he was created in the like of the Grey Knights as an exceptionally powerful psyker and that all the space marines created from his genestock were powerful psykers. Only a small number of them were created and they were created for one thing. On worlds where the rebellion against the empreror was strong and valuable sources were being wasted in battles with them (during the Great Crusades mind you) just one of these Space Marines would be dropped with another legion. They would be placed in an area that he saw fit and then he would release a powerful psychic blast that would literally force the minds of those rebeling to fall immediately under the Empreror's influence. This secret was only known to a select few and it was believed if the masses ever knew such was going on that their faith in the empreror might falter. I mean what God has to force people to believe in him right(definitely pun intended)? Once the Crusades began to slow whispers from some of the Emperor's most loyal advisors and generals began to speak against these powerful psykers and soon the empreror felt the same as they. So utilizing a very convincing speech he placed all the psyker marines of this legion on a ship and sent them through the warp with no exit strategy to never be seen again and the secret of the forced faith was never to be spoken of again. In an army I created though they have returned from a distant galaxy with an alien race under their control. They are so powerful I consider them special characters and one can only have a single member in their army. They no longer use the warp for their abilities but instead gain their power through a very powerful god like diety in another galaxy. The legion was known as the Emperor's Oracles but are now the Forgotten Oracle Space Marine legion


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## Ork_boss (Sep 30, 2009)

One of the primarchs Is the Blood Ravens Primarch so thats one gone! 1 more to go!


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## Abbott (Aug 1, 2009)

did the primarchs get teleported through the warp (and i believe that time is different in the warp e.g. 1 human year is 500 warp years) they could have just re-imerged a couple of mellenium later?


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## ejacobs (Sep 27, 2009)

Okay, I stand corrected about Angron. But! Did he still serve the Emperor? He did!

The two lost could have just not been found. So no findy, no reintegration with the legion created for them, no leader, no legion, no records. 

Akham's Razor, sometimes the most obvious answer is the correct one? Maybe? I honestly don't give them much thought.

As for the comment about people remembering Horus, i would say that only a very small percentage of the universe knows about Horus, the rest are ignorant "peasants" who know nothing of the greater happenings and true history of humanity and xenos at large.

E


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## LuciusTheSwordsman (Feb 17, 2008)

As i just finally finished tales of heresy i will say this. Angron was forcibly teleported from his planet and he killed basically every person that walked into the room to talk to him. He was beating the crap out of Kharn that he had realized the emperor's tactical genius and power. While he still held a grudge against the emperor for killing his troops he swore his loyalty to the emperor so he could command his legion.

And the galaxy is a big place, and the horus heresy was a good 10k years ago, not many people are informed of something that old. 

I have a fond belief that Sigmar is one of the primarchs because well...he's pwnsome.

But even for all our theory's the two missing legions were cast out because of games workshop wanting to allow some creativity to flourish with people making their own legions. 

And finally ork_boss, im also a fond believer that the inquisition created the blood ravens as an experiment to see how corrupted a traitor gene-seed truly was, in this case they chose the 1k sons. I say the 1k sons because of the Blood Raven's abnormal amount of psykers in the chapter.


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## Ork_boss (Sep 30, 2009)

Okay That is intresting it may explain alot. For E.G their history not being around


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## Eviltim (Sep 25, 2008)

One of the Missing Chapters has to be Rainbow Warriors, They appeared in RT, and have been slowly disappearing completely, Maybe the Administratum deem'd them "Too gay"


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

I always thought that one of them was Sigmar. I know that their is no canon to back this up but it made sense to me.


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

LuciusTheSwordsman said:


> As i just finally finished tales of heresy i will say this. Angron was forcibly teleported from his planet and he killed basically every person that walked into the room to talk to him. He was beating the crap out of Kharn that he had realized the emperor's tactical genius and power. While he still held a grudge against the emperor for killing his troops he swore his loyalty to the emperor so he could command his legion.
> 
> And the galaxy is a big place, and the horus heresy was a good 10k years ago, not many people are informed of something that old.
> 
> ...


Maybe they didn't even create new marines using 1k sons gene seed but used a loyalist chapter of the thousand sons, look I mean all the potential traitors to horus cause from the emperor's children, world eaters, death guard and sons of horus were killed at istvaan 3. So there must have been loyalist elements of the 1k sons. So why create new marines when you already have loyalists.:grin:


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## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

It's ironic that the 1k sons are even a traitor legion. They were the most loyal legion in the Empirium before the heresy. I imagine Magnus was like an angsty teen child... he truly loved his father deep down, but he disobeyed and used sorcery in spite of that fact. 

When the Emperor dispatched Leman Russ to fetch Magnus and bring him in, its likely that Magnus would have returned, be reprimanded, and taken uo the seat his father had made him on the Golden Throne. 

The only reason Magnus "fell" was becouse Horus interfered with Leman Russ' orders, and as warmaster, told Leman Russ to kill Magnus becouse he was a traitor. 

Mangus, who's legion was no match for the wolves, probaly dearly loved his legion since I like to think of him as a big softy. When his bitch-ass (I realy hate him) leiutenant, Arhiman failed at his sorcery and accidentilly killed all of his brothers with the rubric, Magnus probably felt there was no other option left him. He knew that Arhiman truly was tainted by chaos, and his legion would probably have been executed by the Imperium, so he fled to the warp where Tzeentch was all too happy to play with him.


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

Prince Endymion said:


> It's ironic that the 1k sons are even a traitor legion. They were the most loyal legion in the Empirium before the heresy. I imagine Magnus was like an angsty teen child... he truly loved his father deep down, but he disobeyed and used sorcery in spite of that fact.
> 
> When the Emperor dispatched Leman Russ to fetch Magnus and bring him in, its likely that Magnus would have returned, be reprimanded, and taken uo the seat his father had made him on the Golden Throne.
> 
> ...


Dude wrong in two aspects:grin: the thousand sons were easily a match for russ's legion but they were caught by suprise as they weren't expecting to be attacked by their brothers and (don't get me wrong i'm aloyalist through and through) the emperor in this case betrayed magnus, when magnus tried to warn him of horus's imminent betrayel the emp dispatched russ to deal with him just because he was doing what we was best at.:cray:


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## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

scolatae said:


> Dude wrong in two aspects:grin: the thousand sons were easily a match for russ's legion but they were caught by suprise as they weren't expecting to be attacked by their brothers and (don't get me wrong i'm aloyalist through and through) the emperor in this case betrayed magnus, when magnus tried to warn him of horus's imminent betrayel the emp dispatched russ to deal with him just because he was doing what we was best at.:cray:


It's worded pretty cleanly that Emperor wanted Magnus brought back to be dealt with, not killed by Russ. Its also pretty clear about Abbadon interfering.

As for which legion had a chance... its up in the air. I personlly favor the wolves, but let's not derail the thread.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

according to collected visions, the emperor wanted to execute magnus after a trial

which really shows the emperor's favouritism for horus, magnus uses sorcery to warn the emp and the emp immediately sends the wolves to fetch him back to earth for execution

horus rips out the emp's throat and breaks his back, and the emp is still reluctant to destroy him


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

Prince Endymion said:


> It's worded pretty cleanly that Emperor wanted Magnus brought back to be dealt with, not killed by Russ. Its also pretty clear about Abbadon interfering.
> 
> As for which legion had a chance... its up in the air. I personlly favor the wolves, but let's not derail the thread.


Sorry you misunderstood due to my shody writing, my point is that the emp should have heeded magnus's warning not tried to arrest him and cart him off to terra.


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## Fire starter Pyro (Apr 1, 2009)

I Don't think that just because a legion didn't have their primarch dosen't be that they don't exsist, i far as i have read about the heresy the legions already had a long battle history under the command of marine commanders before the primarchs were given command of them so that can't be it. 

One option i can think of is that maybe one of the missing two could have been given command of the Custodes. 

as for the tau idea back during the HH their was no Tau as they as a culture have only been around for 2000 years so they can't of joined them and they'er not listed as triators so it must be somthing else far worse? as if they merely fell in battle they would be maytas and held in the highest esteem. not deleted from history so it must be much more damaging to the imperium than turning against the emperor!

as for the 'make your own legion' well that excuse went out the window when the chapters were founded. i feel it would be cool if GW did a HH expantion like Apocolypes as they've reintroduced or rewritten events from this time before so i think they should bring them to the table even as a seperate game platform from standard 40k.


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## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

That would be totally kick ass


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

They`re dead. Any credence to the theory that they were pariahs? Nooo. The chaos gods helped make them, why would they make pariahs? (and how?) One is accounted for in the heresy series already. Be patient, make up whatever crap you want in the meantime, but GW will get to the other eventually. (If they haven`t aleady and nobody`s noticed yet.) Look sharp! Clues could be anywhere. Even... in the next book? I don`t know.


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## AgentOrange24 (Mar 25, 2010)

I don't know how to do anything with spoilers so...

***** Spoilers Ahead****!!!





In "A Thousand Sons" when Aziman is talking to the human remembrancer, the human says something about it being impossible to erase the memories of entire peoples.

Ahriman replies that the Emperors wrath can be a terrible thing.

Soooo I guess the book is implying that the Emperor had some people completely removed from Imperial record.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> They`re dead.


Most likely not



Serpion5 said:


> The chaos gods helped make them


False



Serpion5 said:


> One is accounted for in the heresy series already.


Where does it say that?



AgentOrange24 said:


> I don't know how to do anything with spoilers so...




[slash spoiler] 

/ <----


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Most likely not


I would personally say its more likely they are dead now rather than alive.



Malus Darkblade said:


> False


Strong implications are certainly there


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I would personally say its more likely they are dead now rather than alive.


I disagree.

If they were dead, I see no reason as to why the emperor/imperium would make no mention of it.

Unless of course such a pre-heresy thought that a Primarch could perish or that one of the emperor's sons died would diminish morale (I suppose it makes sense that someone being lost sounds better then someone getting killed, for the former still leaves a vague possibility of hope).

If they turned to Chaos somehow, then I would imagine that the emperor would not have been so dumbstruck to realize that horus turned to Chaos, seeing as how it had happened twice before.

If they had been somehow captured by aliens, you would think a massive operation would have taken place to find/rescue them, assuming one did not occur in secret.

I doubt that they simply were lost, crash landing on planets too far for the emperor's psychic power to detect, especially since they were in large test-tubes, not escape pods if I am not mistaken.

Even if they were in escape pods, I'm certain they would not be able to pass into areas where the emperor could not see them given the amount of fuel and technology of the shuttle unless they were _propelled _by chaos power but if that was the case then why did it just happen to two of them?

Edit: I think Sigmar is one of the lost Primarchs, his tube/shuttle somehow/thanks to Chaos entering a different dimension being the old Warhammer universe, a place where even the emperor could not detect him or he was able to sense him but had no knowledgeable way of getting to him and thus being truly _lost_. As for the other one, I'm not sure but maybe the same thing happened but a completely different dimension?



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Strong implications are certainly there


If I steal money from a bank and decide to build a car with it, did the bank help me in creating the car?

As you mentioned before, the chaos powers were at the time, or maybe still are, naive in regards to their understanding of the material realm.

I'm assuming the emperor promised them something in return and described what he was going to do with the power he stole/borrowed in a very vague manner.

I don't think he told them he was going to build super strong warriors to take over the galaxy in their name, seeing as how they did not fully understand how he would give them what he promised.

The manner in which he took a portion of their power strongly hints that he 'stole' it, thus fully eliminating the notion that they aided him, because if he had explained his plans exactly to them then why would they not lend more of their power and create truly immortal beings, immune to pain, etc. 

Also, they were enraged when they discovered either what the emperor's goal truly was (to rid the imperium/universe of their dependence on the chaos powers/warp) or when they discovered his secret lab where he was cooking up the primarchs. 

This again points to the fact that he stole their power without them knowing/noticing or they were aware but they eventually forgave/ignored his actions until they discovered what he had done with it (their reaction being the scattering/tainting of the primarchs).


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Sigmar is definitely not a Primarch, he has/had mortal parents (actual birth parents not foster parents) and he was no bigger or stronger than the majority of his warriors. It's a charming theory but with all evidence pointing to it's inaccuracy.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Sigmar is definitely not a Primarch, he has/had mortal parents (actual birth parents not foster parents) and he was no bigger or stronger than the majority of his warriors. It's a charming theory but with all evidence pointing to it's inaccuracy.


"_Sigmar is said to be BORN under a comet. The verb BORN was used for other primarchs. It would be bad in the world of warhammer to tell someone that you adopted a child that came from the sky. In a world like warhammer the tribal leaders would have killed the child. He could have had foster parents that hid his identity. I believe there were a few primarchs that started out this way. Leman Russ for example_. "

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11141

His passing into a different dimension may have altered some of his latent Primarch abilities, his size/stature included. The Emperor I believe was not as tall as some of the primarchs (IE Magnus) and I'm certain some Space Marines were taller than him as well (Alpharius/Omegon were smaller/the same size of some of their troops), and Sigmar has also bested many powerful demons/daemons in single combat.

And apparently there are very warhammer40k-esque weapoins found in the WH fantasy universe that are very reminiscent of power claws, energy weapons, etc., pointing out to the theory.

This wasn't the main point of my previous post and I'm not very knowledgeable about the WH fantasy universe, I was just throwing out a theory that has never been discussed before to my knowledge (different dimension).


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

That would still mean the primarch is dead would it not?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I disagree.
> 
> If they were dead, I see no reason as to why the emperor/imperium would make no mention of it.
> 
> ...


Well we know they were discovered and fought in the Great Crusade at some point. And if they died at some point during the Crusade, the Emperor would have quite a few reasons not to broadcast it, it would shatter the illusion of the Great Crusade - it also might be why Malcador referred to them as 'seperate tradegies'?



Malus Darkblade said:


> Edit: I think Sigmar is one of the lost Primarchs, his tube/shuttle somehow/thanks to Chaos entering a different dimension being the old Warhammer universe, a place where even the emperor could not detect him or he was able to sense him but had no knowledgeable way of getting to him and thus being truly _lost_. As for the other one, I'm not sure but maybe the same thing happened but a completely different dimension?


As the Baron said, Sigmar is certainly not a Primarch. GW have indirectly stated this themselves by stating the Fantasy and 40k universes are completely seperate.

He was not larger/stronger/smarter than any normal man. He didn't fight in the Great Crusade (as both Lost Primarchs were said to have). And he was concieved and born to mortal parents. Blessed by the gods maybe, but not a Primarch.



Malus Darkblade said:


> If I steal money from a bank and decide to build a car with it, did the bank help me in creating the car?


Misunderstanding of points there I believe, my bad - should have elaborated on my previous post 



Malus Darkblade said:


> and Sigmar has also bested many powerful demons/daemons in single combat.


So have many people. Aenarion is a strong example, who bested 4 Greater Daemons simultaneously.



Malus Darkblade said:


> And apparently there are very warhammer40k-esque weapoins found in the WH fantasy universe that are very reminiscent of power claws, energy weapons, etc., pointing out to the theory.


Thats the very old fluff, back when 40k & Fantasy were actually officially linked.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> That would still mean the primarch is dead would it not?


_Following his disappearance, Sigmar passed over the World's Edge Mountain range and no human ever saw him again_


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Well we know they were discovered and fought in the Great Crusade at some point. And if they died at some point during the Crusade, the Emperor would have quite a few reasons not to broadcast it, it would shatter the illusion of the Great Crusade - it also might be why Malcador referred to them as 'seperate tradegies'?


Yes one of the reasons I stated is that the loss of morale resulting from news of a Primarch being able to die, something I'm sure was inconceivable by the masses pre-heresy, would be very bad for the campaign.

Then I suppose they turned to Chaos and the emperor, knowing that his sons were not immune to chaos, knew/expected Horus's betrayal and let it happen for his own reasons.

Other than the reasons I mentioned, I don't see any other reason, besides marketing strategy, for why they would be labeled _lost_.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> As the Baron said, Sigmar is certainly not a Primarch. GW have indirectly stated this themselves by stating the Fantasy and 40k universes are completely seperate.


I've visited several forums, many of its members said the same thing and yet many more said GW never directly addressed this and asked the former for proof and never got any 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> He was not larger/stronger/smarter than any normal man. He didn't fight in the Great Crusade (as both Lost Primarchs were said to have). And he was concieved and born to mortal parents. Blessed by the gods maybe, but not a Primarch.


As I said maybe his venture into a different universe altered some of his Primarch abilities and when he disappeared into the World's Edge Mountains and got picked up by the emperor, he took part in the Great Crusade.

Though I'm sure he was the wisest/most charismatic, evident of how he united all of humanity and conquered many enemy forces. 

In the WH40k universe, it being dominated by science and cold logic, we are given ample proof of the Primarchs being smarter than everyone else and we're given examples. But in the WH fantasy universe, it's dictated by superstition and tribal rituals and thus we see wise people, not textbook smart people, who are adept at leading their people and making good decisions. Bah it's hard to explain what I'm trying to get at.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> So have many people. Aenarion is a strong example, who bested 4 Greater Daemons simultaneously.


He was empowered by Elven deities, Sigmar was kicking ass at the age of fifteen.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Thats the very old fluff, back when 40k & Fantasy were actually officially linked.


Yup, a lot of inconsistencies in the WH universe, many of which I don't believe were cleared up.

If anything it would seem like Sigmar was the emperor pre-age of strife but I'll settle for him being a lost primarch lol.


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## Tbirch (Mar 13, 2010)

Maybe one day, the Space Wolves Primarch will return with one or two "lost" primarchs. 

Wouldn't that be something?


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## BroodingLord (Feb 17, 2009)

From the fluffl he wasn't bigger then his warriors, but he was superhuman to some degree I believe I read that he single handedly held a pass from an entire WAAAAGHing army of orcs, slew greater daemons and united humanity across a planet. Seems pretty epic for you're average joe, but even with this reasoning I don't think he was, The universes are separate as far as I know.


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## Bakunin (Mar 27, 2010)

AgentOrange24 said:


> I don't know how to do anything with spoilers so...
> 
> ***** Spoilers Ahead****!!!
> 
> ...


Thats exactly what i thought when I read that bit. The Emperor had the two Primarchs and their legions removed from history because they rebelled against his authority. Chaos probably wasn't involved, they just disagreed with his way forward.



Ahriman also mentions how the crusade began by aiming to wipe out all opposition to the Emperor. Basically this began with xenocidal purges cleansing the planets near to Terra. This was justified by the fact that these were fairly hostile aliens. Yet even Ahriman, an astartes, understands how some people might find it shocking.

In 'The Last church' the Emperor is shown to destroy anything that does not conform to his vision of the galaxy. 

It is also made clear that while some legions are happy to simply wipe out all people who don't embrace the Emperors way, other legions have doubts about this. The Legions with doubts (includeing the Lunar Wolves) have these doubts because of the outlook of their primarchs. 


The Primarchs all grew up in different cultures and their outlooks reflected the cultures they grew up in. Not all of them were immediatedly willing to submit to the Emperors authority. Some (maybe two?) probably came from cultures where someone who decrees that everyone who has to be subservient to his authority or a culture should be destroyed because it traded with non-hostile xenos was seen to be not a saviour, but someone who would lead the glaxy into a distopian future where there was only war.

So they rebelled against the Emperoros methods, perhaps refuseing to carry out his orders. The Emperors responce? Get very angry and destroy them. Maybe not even get angry, but rationally put his ideas to them and then destroy them.

The Primarchs were almost certainly created useing the power from the warp. The Emperor, in his arrogance, thought he could control the warp, cheating the chaos gods and rule the galaxy. It is argueable (but really the subject of another thread) that the Emperors long term plan was to always become a god and to eclipse the chaos gods. However, by useing the power of the warp to create the primarchs they were always creatures with a faint taint of chaos. The thing about chaos is that it is free willed where anything is possible. So while some primarchs chose to obey the emperor and loved his destructive plans, others chose not to. The very fact that two primarchs, two of his master creations, showed the flaw in his plans. 

So the Emperors responce, just as it had been to people who wanted to keep their religious beliefs inspite of his logical arguements to the contrary, was to remove them from history. His mistake never happened and he still had 18-19 loyal primarchs to follow his orders and put his plans into action. What he didn't realise was that the chaos would mean that the other primarchs would eventually rebel or corrupt his vision for the Imperium. Magnus, for example, follows the classical pattern of tragedy. He is creature created useing warp energy so doomed. He does great acts to fight against this inevitable doom and save himself, but all these acts make his doom even more inevitable.

Anyway, thats my view of what happened (or hopefully what the Black library will show happened) to the primarchs. I think that way it will also be more interesting than the standard "everyone loved the Emperor who was busy saveing mankind and bringing peace to the gallery, then Horus suddenly went evil" storyline. All the have to do is mention them, they needn't have their own novels.

Sorry if I got the thing for doing spoilers wrong. This is my first post.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Bakunin said:


> Thats exactly what i thought when I read that bit. The Emperor had the two Primarchs and their legions removed from history because they rebelled against his authority. Chaos probably wasn't involved, they just disagreed with his way forward.


Wow I didn't think of that haha and I like this theory more so than any other.

Maybe the chaos powers thought the primarchs were immune to their corruption just like the emperor until they saw them rebel against their father, which gave them the impression that the primarchs could be turned to their side after all.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I doubt it. Angron didn't exactly want to come either so I doubt them saying "FUCK OFF" would warrant such an extreme reaction.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> I doubt it. Angron didn't exactly want to come either so I doubt them saying "FUCK OFF" would warrant such an extreme reaction.


Angron's spirits were crushed, it wasn't a clash of ideologies in his case.

He was emotionally crushed that all the people he lived and fought with for so long were abandoned in their last hour when he promised them he would perish with them.

The other Primarchs, assuming the authority theory is true, had a clash of ideologies with the emperor and disagreed with his policies. 

Angron didn't care, he just lived to fight and kill whomever he was told to kill and in the end he did rebel, he just needs an authoritative figure to control him (the emperor then horus).


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

Could GW have borrowed the Greek myth of Prometheus, to explain how the Primarchs were created?



Wikipedia said:


> He was *a champion of human-kind known for his wily intelligence*, who stole fire from Zeus and gave it to mortals. Zeus then *punished him for his crime* by having him bound to a rock while a great eagle ate his liver every day only to have it grow back to be eaten again the next day. His myth has been treated by a number of ancient sources, in which Prometheus is *credited with – or blamed for – playing a pivotal role in the early history of humankind.*


i suggest this as the theory is that the Emperor borrowed/stole, some of the power from the Chaos Gods, the Chaos Gods later finding out and exacting their vengeance by turning Horus ala half the Legions, thus punishing the Emperor? Speculation? Definitely, but considering GWs use of many inter-culture references, this could be one of them?

And on the Lost Primarchs, aren't Grey Knights, Space Marine?



GW said:


> A special Chapter of advanced Space Marines, the Grey Knights, stands ready with powerful abilities to assist the Inquisitors


a possibility for a lost Primarch?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

WarlordKaptainGrishnak said:


> Could GW have borrowed the Greek myth of Prometheus, to explain how the Primarchs were created?


Everything in the WH universe is copy pasta from real life mythology and changed around.



WarlordKaptainGrishnak said:


> i suggest this as the theory is that the Emperor borrowed/stole, some of the power from the Chaos Gods, the Chaos Gods later finding out and exacting their vengeance by turning Horus ala half the Legions, thus punishing the Emperor? Speculation? Definitely, but considering GWs use of many inter-culture references, this could be one of them?


That's pretty much why the chaos powers scattered the primarchs because they probably found out what the emperor's real intentions with the power he stole/borrowed was for (not empowering them)



WarlordKaptainGrishnak said:


> And on the Lost Primarchs, aren't Grey Knights, Space Marine?


Grey Knights are Space Marines, supposedly the strongest, most well equipped amongst them and seemingly immune to the taint of Chaos.




WarlordKaptainGrishnak said:


> a possibility for a lost Primarch?


Their geneseed is rumored to be taken directly from the Emperor, hence their resistance to chaos taint.


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Their geneseed is rumored to be taken directly from the Emperor, hence their resistance to chaos taint.


The Primarchs were created partially from the Emperor, did half of them not fall the the taint of Chaos? And the Legions were created during the time of the Primarchs' disappearance using the DNA of the Primarchs, wouldnt the Legions be resistant to Chaos taint?

The Primarchs have attributes of the Emperor, but the taint of Chaos is psychological rather than Chaos possession/manifestation. the manifestation of Chaos could be averted by the Emperor's DNA perhaps?

The majority of Grey Knights are psykers, some of the Primarchs were psykers (a connection?), and i believe that the knights resistance to Chaos taint comes from their zealous nature and piousness to the Emperor and the Imperium.

my 2 cents


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

WarlordKaptainGrishnak said:


> The Primarchs were created partially from the Emperor, did half of them not fall the the taint of Chaos? And the Legions were created during the time of the Primarchs' disappearance using the DNA of the Primarchs, wouldnt the Legions be resistant to Chaos taint?
> 
> 
> The Primarchs have attributes of the Emperor, but the taint of Chaos is psychological rather than Chaos possession/manifestation. the manifestation of Chaos could be averted by the Emperor's DNA perhaps?
> ...


The Primarchs were created fully from the emperor's DNA and it's said that he possesses all of their abilities.

The Space Marines share the Primarchs geneseed, and do not have a direct link to the emperor's DNA whereas the Grey Knights supposedly do (they don't have a Primarch apparently).

And all the Grey Knights are potent psychers and I am also of the opinion turning to chaos is psychological and a change in beliefs and not something DNA related. 

This is why I have questions in regards to why the tech-priests on Mars require loyal regions to send samples of their gene seed to _check for corruption_

Also some of the primarchs were apparently more prone to turn than others, hence why only half turned. 

But the Grey Knights are 100% immune to Chaos taint whereas the other legions have a chance and this is because the former are directly linked to the emperor who is without a doubt immune to chaos corruption.

I'm still confused about this, just wait for CoTE to come by I guess


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

BroodingLord said:


> From the fluffl he wasn't bigger then his warriors, but he was superhuman to some degree I believe I read that he single handedly held a pass from an entire WAAAAGHing army of orcs, slew greater daemons and united humanity across a planet. Seems pretty epic for you're average joe, but even with this reasoning I don't think he was, The universes are separate as far as I know.


He held the pass with a few thousand warriors 

Sigmar is definitely not a Primarch, the Time of Legend series puts that idea to rest, you meet his real father in the books and find out that whilst he was a fantastic warrior and leader he was still a mortal man- so in fact Child is incorrect, GW have directly said Sigmar is not a Primarch.
Also Sigmar is never presented as the most charasmatic or wise of men, indeed at some parts of his life he's not even slightly likeable.

Though Malus is correct when it comes to certain artifacts being similar to 40K examples, they were special weapons only available in the Albion campaign that magically did what their equivalents in 40K do with technology.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Angron's spirits were crushed, it wasn't a clash of ideologies in his case.
> 
> He was emotionally crushed that all the people he lived and fought with for so long were abandoned in their last hour when he promised them he would perish with them.
> 
> ...


Angron was not an ork. He refused to come because he wanted to die with his men and when the emperor spirited him away he developed an eternal hate for the emperor. He would not expunge them from all records simply for a disagreement with policy. Taint is the only reason I can see for it.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Angron was not an ork. He refused to come because he wanted to die with his men and when the emperor spirited him away he developed an eternal hate for the emperor.



So you just rephreased what I had oriignally said, ok.



gen.ahab said:


> He would not expunge them from all records simply for a disagreement with policy. Taint is the only reason I can see for it.


Read my previous post about why I thought it could be taint and then why I felt like the disagreement thing is a better theory.

And it's not some minor disagreement like them not liking their theme color or something.

It makes perfect sense, he couldn't bring himself to kill them and he didn't want any of the other Primarchs getting the wrong idea so he banished them and said they were 'lost'


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

What, other than heresy could possible warrant such an extreme reaction? And that is not what you said you made him out to be a mindless brute who thought of nothing more than murder and mayhem. And for some reason I did not see the second line of text in that statement. Sorry. 

As to the gray knights, they go through extreme psycho-indoctrination and countless tests in order to become what they are.... all of what they once were is completely erased and a new being is built back up from the ruins. 

Also, they weren't necessarily prone to taint, it was more than that. Horus turned because of the incident on Davin for the most part. Purtabo Turned because he felt rejected and after the Olympia incident he felt he could never be forgiven. Lorgar was just looking for something to worship really and felt rejected by the emperor maybe idk. Angron had a lot to do with the emperor and the location he landed. Cruze...... well he was just a nutter. Oh and Magnus fell because of his extreme hubris.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> What, other than heresy could possible warrant such an extreme reaction?


Exactly, we don't know.

As the other poster mentioned, it could possibly be the emperor's no-xenos tolerance policy.



gen.ahab said:


> And that is not what you said you made him out to be a mindless brute who thought of nothing more than murder and mayhem. And for some reason I did not see the second line of text in that statement. Sorry.


I actually tip toed around that because I was worried I would make Angron seem like a brute with no mind but I didn't.

The whole controlling/Angron is a weapon bit is from Horus himself.

Here's one quote between Fulgrim and Horus respectively: 

"_Is Angron up to his usual tricks?
Angron is as he has always been.
That bad?' 
'No, I keep him on a short leash, and his equerry, Kharn, seems to curb the worst of our brother's excesses._"

*HH Fulgrim*

He's the *most *aggressive of *all* the primarchs and the one who gets very irritated when he's doing anything but fighting but I did not say he was a mindless brute.



gen.ahab said:


> As to the gray knights, they go through extreme psycho-indoctrination and countless tests in order to become what they are.... all of what they once were is completely erased and a new being is built back up from the ruins.


That's what happens to every single Space Marine?



gen.ahab said:


> Also, they weren't necessarily prone to taint, it was more than that.


They are assumed to be immune, seeing as how not a single one of them turned to Chaos despite all of their missions taking place in heavily daemon infested worlds/battle zones over the course of millenia.



gen.ahab said:


> Horus turned because of the incident on Davin for the most part.


Horus always had it inside of him, he was paranoid of the emperor and he was resentful of him deep down. The Davin incident merely sealed the deal.



gen.ahab said:


> Purtabo Turned because he felt rejected and after the Olympia incident he felt he could never be forgiven.


Perterubo, now there's an interesting Primarch with barely any background fluff. The catalyst to his turning was when he realized he committed *genocide *simply out of anger. It wasn't so much that he knew his crime would not be forgiven but more of realizing what he had just done adn how it went against everything he believed in.

And again he was always resentful of Dorn and the praise everyone heaped on him. Chaos didn't simply corrupt him outright, the Primarchs are made of much sterner stuff. 



gen.ahab said:


> Lorgar was just looking for something to worship really and felt rejected by the emperor maybe idk.


No that's exactly what caused him to turn to Chaos, it was the final spark, the final push he needed.



gen.ahab said:


> Angron had a lot to do with the emperor and the location he landed.


?

Angron never forgave the emperor for making him abandon his men in their most dire time and it served as the driving force to his abandoning of the emperor.



gen.ahab said:


> Cruze...... well he was just a nutter.
> 
> Oh and Magnus fell because of his extreme hubris.


lol read up on the fluff and stuff CoTE has been writing and the other threads dude

Bottom line, *none *of the Primarchs were forcibly converted to Chaos, they all had their inner demons and troubles to which Chaos promised to lend a helping hand.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

That’s what I said. You gave off the impression that they were actually prone to taint which they really weren’t just innately, there was much more to it.

I know most of the background on both.... And the opening ling of the paragraph probably has something to do with the damn paragraph. If I was still talking about the GK it would have been in the paragraph that concerned them. 

I am also aware that the primary reason for Logars change was the emperor. I was giving primary reasons for heresy, not the entire list of small occurrences that eventually lead to their fall; that would take far too long.

Also, every space marine is not mind wiped nor do they go through even half of what the GKs must go through in order to become what they are.

AND ya you made angron out to be a mindless brute where you were talking about him.... sorry but you did.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Though I'm sure he was the wisest/most charismatic, evident of how he united all of humanity and conquered many enemy forces.


Well he united a fraction of human tribes, by no means all of humanity. And conquered enemy forces and established an Empire which doesn't even cover a full continent. And as the Baron said, he held Black Fire Pass with an army of thousands, not by himself (but to his credit he did commit some fantastic feits of bravery/courage/strength during the battle).

Im not belittling Sigmar's achievements, because they were amazing and against the odds but in comparison to some of the Primarchs on their home worlds he pales in comparison. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> He was empowered by Elven deities, Sigmar was kicking ass at the age of fifteen.


And arguably Sigmar was empowered by at least Ulric! But probably just a bad example on my part, what I was getting at is that countless heroes have slain Greater Daemons, its no basis on which to say hes a Primarch.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Grey Knights are Space Marines, supposedly the strongest, most well equipped amongst them and seemingly immune to the taint of Chaos.


I wouldn't say immune to Chaos corruption - Just that none of them have fallen yet.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Their geneseed is rumored to be taken directly from the Emperor, hence their resistance to chaos taint.





Malus Darkblade said:


> I am also of the opinion turning to chaos is psychological and a change in beliefs and not something DNA related.


Contradictory?  



Malus Darkblade said:


> This is why I have questions in regards to why the tech-priests on Mars require loyal regions to send samples of their gene seed to _check for corruption_


A lot of Geneseed is prone to mutation on some level, prominent examples being Sanguinius' and Russ'. These mutations needs to be constantly monitored otherwise you could end up losing an entire Chapter.

And although DNA may not be the sole reason for people falling to Chaos, it can certainly help. For example the Blood Angels Geneseed makes them prone to the Black Rage, which makes them more likely to fall into Khornate worship than say an Astartes of Guilliman's geneseed.



Malus Darkblade said:


> the emperor who is without a doubt immune to chaos corruption.


Again I wouldn't say the Emperor was/is immune to Chaos corruption. He just chose the path of battling Chaos rather than joining it, he was no doubt tempted by the Chaos Gods throughout his lifetime, he just resisted.



Malus Darkblade said:


> I'm still confused about this, just wait for CoTE to come by I guess


I really need a white stallion for moments like this :biggrin:


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## Bakunin (Mar 27, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> I doubt it. Angron didn't exactly want to come either so I doubt them saying "FUCK OFF" would warrant such an extreme reaction.


I'd agree that a simple "fuck off" would not result in the Emperor ordering them being written out of history. I also think the Emperor is portrayed as someone who does not take no for an answer. Leman Russ also told the Emperor where to go and had to be given a slap before he would follow him. Yet when he did follow the Emperor, he followed him blindly. He was perfectly happy to take his role as the Emperors attack wolf, laying waste to everything he came across. Hopefully his character will be explored in more detail in 'Prospero burns'. In particular I hope Dan Abnett looks a bit more at the suggestion that Leman Russ being a brutish barbarian is a mask that serves his current roll and he is very intelligent and calculating underneath this. Unfortunately, due to Dan Abnetts current health problems we will have to wait till next year.

The Emperors grip on the fledging Imperium is protrayed as firm in the Heresy novels. However it is also shown that there are a myriad of interested partys surrounding him and political fighting as a result of these. even Terra is shown to still have the remnants of the old nations conquered by the Emperor. Their subservience is not absolute. Many worlds absorbed into the Imperium, peacefully or otherwise, experience sizeable insurgencys against the Imperium. The Imperium uses wages a strong propaganda war about the benefits of the Imperium on every new world.

Two charasmatic and rational primarchs openly questioning and argueing that their is an alternative to the Emperors way, would be a threat to the Emperors dominance. Perhaps they were suggesting there are alternative visions for the Imperium. Maybe even alliances with Xenos life for the greater good... These would be a real threat to the Emperors dominance. While you can easily argue that a rampageing chaos army is not in a persons best interest. It is not so easy to argue against rational ideas. Even the memory of such ideas would be a threat. So why not remove them from history. 

One of the things that is apparent about the council of Nikea is the secrecy surrounding it. The Emperor was obviously not keen for his disageements with Magnus to be open and in front of the whole Imperium.

Finally, returning to Angron, the Emperor was never interested in his view point, as long as he did what he was told. Angron was a slave who was used as Gladiator for the entertainment of his masters and the rich. As a slave he had no control over his life. Yet he gained his pride with a warrrior code and a respect for the others he had to fight for the entertainment of their owners. Such a code appears brutal to so called more civilsed people, people who kept Angron as a slave, but it also gave him control over his life. When he lead his Spartacus style revolt, he was rejecting slaverry, but also reaffirming everything that he had used to assert himself as an individual and so as a a person of worth. In other words the warrior code. 

Part of the code was that you don't back down, you fight even if it means you'll lose. Angron was prepared for his death (haveing already dug his own grave) but would have died free and by the values he lived by. The Emperor came along and started giveing Angron orders and telling him that the one thing that had allowed him to assert himself as an individual, rather than someone elses property was wrong. Instead of incorparating Angrons ideas into the building of the new Imperium, he gave Angron orders and treated him like he was lost property. He would not even use the vast crusadeing fleet to fight on Angrons side, instead teleporting him away from the battle, showing that the one thing that Angron had used to show he was more than a slave counted for nothing.

Angron rebeled against the World eaters until he realised they two were warriors. He saw himself as just much of a slave under the Emperor as he had when he was a gladiator. He had to fight when told to and was viewed as brutal and worthless. Once again he asserted his worth by developing a code and being good at what he did. When sideing with Horus he wasz rejecting all masters and slavery and asserting himself as a free warrior, liveing and dieing by his own values. At Istvaan III he rebelled against Horus, makeing planet fall. This is portrayed as him being headstrong, but is also argueable that he was showing respect to the warriors he was slaying by giveing them a true warriors death, according to his values. He did not view them as simply being an obstacle that was to be removed by orbital bombardment.

In short, Angron was always a slave to the Emperor and a tool of war. He never had a chance to assert his ideas for the Imperium, because he wasn't considered important enough to be asked. Other primarchs from different cultures could of tried voiceing their views. If the Emperor agreed with these views, he would of encourageds them. While if he didn't, he would of put them down, even removed them from historyh if he saw these views as a threat.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Some very good points bakunin, do I see CoTe's successor (just please don't defend or prop up chaos so much lol) in the making? :grin:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Good summery. Lol I don't agree that he was a slave but I suppose it works. That would herey would have been his second chance at "freedom" I would guess.


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## murdock129 (Apr 3, 2008)

Perhaps the Emperor never found them

I know it's not canon that Sigmar was a Primarch, but is he was then the Emperor wouldn't have found him, if he had Warhammer fantasy would be crawling with Space Marines 

But seriously, either he didn't find them, there's some form of extreme secrecy around them (Much like the Illuminati), they had something monstrous happen to them/did something monstrous, or simply didn't swear loyalty to the Emperor


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## papa nurgle (Jan 11, 2010)

Personally, I think it,s a good thing that there remains some degree of mystery in WH40K universe. Having two primarchs missing, resulting in player speculation and increasing interest, only serves to further promote others to participate and keeps us here to continue talking about it.


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## murdock129 (Apr 3, 2008)

Notable point, with the last two Primarchs. Well all the Primarchs so far are male, is there even a chance either the other Primarchs were female?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Bakunin said:


> In short, Angron was always a slave to the Emperor and a tool of war. He never had a chance to assert his ideas for the Imperium, because he wasn't considered important enough to be asked. Other primarchs from different cultures could of tried voiceing their views. If the Emperor agreed with these views, he would of encourageds them. While if he didn't, he would of put them down, even removed them from historyh if he saw these views as a threat.


This is an interesting statement which there is evidence of this being a conception in other legions. One other legion that talks about being under the emperor and resenting it was in "Raven's Flight" right before Corax thought he was about to get his ass owned by Angron and his World Eaters. 

As far as Sigmar being one of the lost primarchs, I for one have always thought of Sigmar being in a lost world perhaps hidden somewhere close in the eye of terror and restricted from the outside world. The possibility of such a thing one would say, would be impossible due to all the technologies available and not in the "Warhammer World." However, such world have been shown to exist; one example is Daemon World. As other evidence shows that Sigmar was definitley a great man. Evidence does for one show his "birth" and abilities as man to be definitley extraordinary, if indeed "extraordinary" is sufficient enough to describe him.

The one thing then that would prevent us to acknowledge Sigmar from being a primarch definitley, would be the fact that GW has claimed them to be two different identities entirely...:alcoholic:However, as so, GW having the power it does can reverse that statement in the future, unless Britain has a law against that. There is/ was an atempt to bring the 40k world and Fantasy world together.  I mean come on... really, Liber Chaotica is a fantasy book with the picture of Lucius, Abbadon, and a Defiler in it. The same daemons appearing in both worlds with the same gods. The fantasy chaos book had chain swords:shok:. Sigmar could definitley be a reasonable candidate for a primarch if it is or even wasn't meant to be so, if GW ever decides to change its stance over the two worlds.


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

murdock129 said:


> Notable point, with the last two Primarchs. Well all the Primarchs so far are male, is there even a chance either the other Primarchs were female?


That would be interesting and I can't think of a reason why not, especially since GW decided an all female army(SoB) would be a good idea.

I don't think now is the time to reveal who those primarchs are, but I think it would be a cool idea if at some point in the future, GW can call for a special event where fans create their own primarchs and the top 2 primarchs would become the 'fluff' primarchs. It could work with just one of the missing primarchs too if they only want to reveal one.

In my opinion, this would be the best way to reveal them.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

There is absolutely no reason to believe that they would be female, he created 18 sons that we know of so why would he create two daughters? In one fell swoop the only two female primarchs were removed from yet all the other primarchs who just happened to be male survived? I find that to be highly unlikely at best.


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## countchocula86 (Sep 1, 2008)

There were only 20 Primarchs, so its not that big of a stretch for the only 2 females to be whisked away. 

I hate to keep harping on this, but jeez the whole point was to allow for unlimited creativity. So your chapter could have whatever back story you wanted.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I also doubt that they are female because there is always a hate and a mistrust of female marines. look at fightingtigersofveda.com and see how in some of the stories the tigers and the ultramarines in particular get into disagreements because the ultramarines do not agree with the idea of female marines.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> I also doubt that they are female because there is always a hate and a mistrust of female marines. look at fightingtigersofveda.com and see how in some of the stories the tigers and the ultramarines in particular get into disagreements because the ultramarines do not agree with the idea of female marines.


Female Astartes are an impossibility (remember that Sisters of Battle are not Astartes!) - Something to do with the Geneseed/DNA. 

Thus I think its safe to assume that Female Primarchs are also an impossibility. If females cannot be implanted with Geneseed and the rest of the biological enhancements, why could female genemothers bear the Geneseed/DNA? 

Im not ruling it out completely, but it would seem strange for a Female Primarch to be running around with a full Legion of Male Astartes!


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## WarWolf88 (Apr 1, 2010)

If my memory works, the canonic reason there are no feamle Primarchs is that because Emperor used his own genetic imprints as the base for the Primarch project, the chrom...chromo...well the things in our DNA that determine our gender could only be that of a male.

But, there seems to be a alternative and just as canonic version according wich the Primarchs were created as a result of the genetic experiments that the Emperor was making to create the Space Marines. There is no piece of fluff in this version that dictates that the Emperor only used the male-type DNA, so this does leave the door open for the speculation of female Primarch(s).

And as for "Sigmar the Primarch", this was something that GW burried a long time ago. Originally they did have backround that seemed to suggest that the Warhammer World and 40k were connected most likely trough the Chaos Wastes and the Eye of Terror. Later they retought about it, started to develop them seperatly.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

countchocula86 said:


> There were only 20 Primarchs, so its not that big of a stretch for the only 2 females to be whisked away.
> 
> I hate to keep harping on this, but jeez the whole point was to allow for unlimited creativity. So your chapter could have whatever back story you wanted.


But surely, it would do no particular harm in revealing say one of the two Primarch`s and dually their Legion; still giving those who wish to create their own Chapters, with an original founding Legion 'room' as so to speak, but also giving the ever-thirsting fluff-fanatics something to revel within, whine about and eventually hate and renounce:cray:


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Their physique is not worthy of space marine genes. The emperor would use common sense when he created primarchs and would make sure only male genetics were used. I have nothing against females, but science just proves that males are more ferocious and warrior-like and alot more adapted for the life of a Space marine and their physical endurance and body are just more up for it. ( also, has there been any females that have been recruited by the Space Marine chapters when they look for possible recruits?) ((also note: Plz, do not be offended if you are a girl, this is more a speculation then anything.)) 

Going back on topic, the last 2 primarchs are whatever GW wishes them to be because they are not actually made yet or will be known untill GW wants to continue the 40k fluff to a new twist that will keep it new and fresh.


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

wow female astartes can you imagine the size of their knockers :grin:


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

I know that the Custodes are supposedly drawn from the Emperor's own genetic material, but I like to think that the possibility is there that at least one of the primarchs was killed during the scattering (and very early in the scattering) and so the Emperor took that particular legion and made them his Custodes, knowing that they would never have a primarch of their own. I would think that would be a reason to wipe the record of them as well, that way there is no jealousy or exclusion by or against the Custodes for having a primarch that was killed before reaching adulthood.

Thanks,
Howard


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Custodes primarch? I haven`t heard that one yet.
.........sifting data.........
Well, based on my near infinite knowledge of 40k fluff, it seems plausible. Though it is said that they come from the Emp`s DNA, I`m sure Big Gold is familiar with the concept of misrepresenting truth. And it fits with my "he`s dead" post. :so_happy:

Any theories on the other?


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