# The most competitive army? What's with the debates!



## Glokkss (Jul 31, 2011)

Getting back into 40k with 7th edition releasing. I've always been a casual player. However what I seem to see more and more are the arguments between casual and competitive players. I understand there are 2 very different polar opposite view points to the huge debate at the moment when it comes to what's wrong with 40k. But I've never had a chance to play in these large competitive tournaments. I kinda want to try it out! Maybe travel to a big tournament like adepticon! 

What's the most competitive army? 

Is there a clear cut winner? I know it's hard to judge as the new edition JUST released. But what were the most competitive lists? Will they have changed with 7th?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I believe the list of choice that was flying around at the end of 6th was Eldar - 3-man units of Jetbikes to score Objectives on the last turn, a bunch of Wave Serpents with Guardians or Aspect Warriors of some kind, Warp Spiders, and a pair of Wraithknights. I never found it too troublesome, albeit in a slightly weakened form (only one Wraithknight, and some Wraithguard in Wave Serpents to compensate plus a Fire Prism), but that was the business. The other one was some Tau list of a Commander with a bunch of items so he gave out special rules like candy, some token Fire Warriors, then Riptides and Broadsides with some Pathfinders to give Markerlights. Also making appearances was Screamerstar (a bunch of Screamers with Forewarning and Grimoire), and White Scars (SM Bikes with Grav Guns).

Personally, I never found them to be ultra-good, but they were winning tournaments.


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## morfangdakka (Dec 31, 2006)

With 7th just out it is hard to tell which is the most competitive. Right at this moment people are using the Daemon summoning list but I think this will probably be quickly countered. CSM helldrake spam is popular, necrons are also popular. My advice would be to find an army you like and build it as competitive as you can.


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## Glokkss (Jul 31, 2011)

Screamerstar hey? What are Death Star armies. Just big units of awesomeness?


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Basically, yeah. Some form of a re-rollable invulnerable save seems to be involved, as well. Very hard to kill.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

morfangdakka said:


> With 7th just out it is hard to tell which is the most competitive. Right at this moment people are using the Daemon summoning list but I think this will probably be quickly countered. CSM helldrake spam is popular, necrons are also popular. My advice would be to find an army you like and build it as competitive as you can.


I think at the moment people are *talking* about using a Daemon Summoning list. I don't know anyone who owns 100+ Lesser Daemons yet.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

MidnightSun said:


> I think at the moment people are *talking* about using a Daemon Summoning list. I don't know anyone who owns 100+ Lesser Daemons yet.


I know several, it is quite easy to achieve. I expect to see this from the same players that like the Tyranid Tervigon(sp?)/gaunt spam.

The new allies options make some very handy combos legal (Battle Forged) now. My own armies will almost certainly feature Necrons and Imperial Knights - Necron flyers, shooting and durability have always been hampered by short range and a general dislike for CC, something that IK excel at. 3 Monoliths and 3 Imperial Knights in a 2k game could be quite fun...


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## morfangdakka (Dec 31, 2006)

MidnightSun said:


> I think at the moment people are *talking* about using a Daemon Summoning list. I don't know anyone who owns 100+ Lesser Daemons yet.



I know three that have over 100+ lesser daemons. I still think it will be a list that will be more annoying than good.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

morfangdakka said:


> I know three that have over 100+ lesser daemons. I still think it will be a list that will be more annoying than good.


That's my opinion also - killing a bunch of T3 guys with 4+ cover/5+ invuln saves is so easy it's not even funny. Perils is reasonably common even with Daemons, which is commonly overlooked. You can plonk a gorillion Pink Horrors on the field, but they don't actually do anything other than sit there and look weird.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

People could take 120 Horrors before. It was bad then, it's bad now.

Don't worry about "most competitive" armies, most books have a viable build or two now, except possibly BA. Play whatever you like.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sethis said:


> People could take 120 Horrors before. It was bad then, it's bad now.
> 
> Don't worry about "most competitive" armies, most books have a viable build or two now, except possibly BA. Play whatever you like.


Quote of the day.


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

In the case of this new horror summoning build people are talking about they might be forgetting the practical limitations- time limits. I believe some people tried out tervigon spam lists in 5th, which looked great on paper, but found they were spending so much time moving models it just didn't work in a timed game. 

Personally when I look at tournament results I'm usually more impressed by the guys that place highly with a weaker codex than the people who take the very top spots with the best builds. What's the better story- the premier league team with the billionaire owner who pay astronomical salaries and go on the win the league, or the underdogs with the weaker squad and no spending power who have a great season, shock everyone and finish 4th or 5th?


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

Sethis said:


> People could take 120 Horrors before. It was bad then, it's bad now.
> 
> Don't worry about "most competitive" armies, most books have a viable build or two now, except possibly BA. Play whatever you like.


Well, they gave us our fast tanks back so I will keep plugging away I guess.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Not to say that you can't win games, just that I don't think the codex has the tools to win tournaments. Nerfs to melee directly hurt our Troop/Elites choices, and so long as Intercepting pie plates of S8 AP3 death are a thing from Tau then Assault Marines are a waste of space apart from as a tax to unlock Fast Razorbacks.

BA as a whole are too expensive to play the numbers game, and not tough enough to win through survival as well as being less mobile than the three main armies, despite their fast transports.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sethis said:


> Nerfs to melee directly hurt our Troop/Elites choices


Why do you think melee has been nerfed? If anything, in the ten or so games of 7th I've played, shooting has been dialled back and many games have been won in the assault phase.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Blood Angels are terrible now. But they've got an update due after orks anyway. The only thing they have going for them is Dante + 2 Sang Guard units as allies. Outside of that... Nope.



Squire said:


> Personally when I look at tournament results I'm usually more impressed by the guys that place highly with a weaker codex than the people who take the very top spots with the best builds. What's the better story- the premier league team with the billionaire owner who pay astronomical salaries and go on the win the league, or the underdogs with the weaker squad and no spending power who have a great season, shock everyone and finish 4th or 5th?


Whoa whoa whoa, Liverpool finished 2nd, cheers.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Why do you think melee has been nerfed? If anything, in the ten or so games of 7th I've played, shooting has been dialled back and many games have been won in the assault phase.


Well not much has changed from 6th and that was bad enough. Things have got a little better now you can use jump packs in movement and assault but you can still routinely fail 5 inch charges through cover, and melta doesn't cut it against riptide or knights. Mêlée is useful, but not with mediocre troops choices.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sethis said:


> Well not much has changed from 6th and that was bad enough. Things have got a little better now you can use jump packs in movement and assault but you can still routinely fail 5 inch charges through cover, and melta doesn't cut it against riptide or knights. Mêlée is useful, but not with mediocre troops choices.


Fair enough. My assault for Dark Angels consists almost entirely of Deathwing, either of the Hammer and Shield variety or Knights - I haven't much experience with Power-Armoured assault units unless I'm charging the three or four dudes left in a unit with Grey Knights which is just mop-up. My other army is Orks, who are just as strong as Assault Marines on the charge but with the benefit of a Str9 PK Nob and a whole bunch more dudes in the combat.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

I predict when the new DE codex comes along and Raiders get the same allotment of increased transport capacity for independent characters as all other new codices have, 5-man Wraithblade squads in Raiders accompanied by an Archon for grenades is going to be cheesy. (Or a dirt cheap Succubus if they get access to the Phantasm Grenade Launcher)

Something like:

DE HQ:

Archon or succubus w/ PGL
3 Haemonculi

DE troops:

3 wracks
3 wracks, raider (raider given to Wraithblades)
3 wracks, raider (raider given to Wraithblades)
Splinter Kabalites in raider
5 Wyches, HWG, in venom
5 Wyches, HWG, in venom

DE Elite:

4 Blasterborn in venom
4 Blasterborn in venom

DE Fast attack:

3 Reavers
3 Reavers
3 Reavers / Razorwing if it becomes FA like it should

DE Heavy support:

Talos to use webway portal

Eldar HQ:

Spiritseer

Eldar Troops:

5 Wraithblades
5 Wraithblades

Eldar Elites:
10 Wraithguard

Eldar fast attack:
Crimson Hunter

Eldar Heavy Support
3 War walkers

To me that seems like a potent list to nail objectives hard. Should be easy to fit into 1750 points as well with wiggle room.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Are Raiders dedicated transports?



MetalHandkerchief said:


> I predict when the new DE codex comes along and Raiders get the same allotment of increased transport capacity for independent characters as all other new codices have, 5-man Wraithblade squads in Raiders accompanied by an Archon for grenades is going to be cheesy. (Or a dirt cheap Succubus if they get access to the Phantasm Grenade Launcher)
> 
> Something like:
> 
> ...


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

yes. hence the wraithguard cannot begin the game inbarked on them. tehy can embark on the first turn but not be deployed inside.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

neferhet said:


> yes. hence the wraithguard cannot begin the game inbarked on them. tehy can embark on the first turn but not be deployed inside.


Never meant to imply they could. It's a non-issue anyway :victory:


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I tried out a demon summoning list with Chaos marines, granted not a "spam" list, and found that the marines just bolterspammed my arriving units, and they were not a factor in the game. I had Six levels of summoner on the board to start, and turn 1 I got a herald of tzeench against a single librarian, but. I think the wailing and gnashing of teeth might be overdone some.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

oh, i understood that you where deploying them inside. agreed though, non issue!


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Creon said:


> I tried out a demon summoning list with Chaos marines, granted not a "spam" list, and found that the marines just bolterspammed my arriving units, and they were not a factor in the game. I had Six levels of summoner on the board to start, and turn 1 I got a herald of tzeench against a single librarian, but. I think the wailing and gnashing of teeth might be overdone some.


See, the wailing and gnashing of teeth is about the spam lists, which you've explicitly stating you didn't take, here. 6 levels of summoning plus D6 is probably 1 unit summoned, plus maybe one other spell (say, Cursed Earth) cast per turn--it's the 25 MLs of Summoning that are causing the concern and gnashing of teeth. You're just making a few extra units over the course of the game. Hey, free points, but no Biomancy/Telepathy buffs for you...


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

You have 100 Pink Horrors?

That's really cute, I'm going to roll an Invisible deathstar through your entire army.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

You have Invisibility to cast? That's really cute, you better throw all your power dice at it, because I have 28 dispel dice to throw at it.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> You have Invisibility to cast? Thats really cute, you better throw all your power dice at it, because I have 28 dispel dice to throw at it.


But that's not a problem. It's not like DAEMONS AND ONLY DAEMONS CAN BRING WARP CHARGE.

Grey Knights can bring a truly preposterous amount of warp charge, Eldar can throw all their Warp Charge into invisibility with no consequences thanks to Ghosthelms, etc. etc.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I've also seen someone roll 36 dice and not get a single six...

So even with 28 Dispel dice, you only average 4-5 sixes, and to get that many WC points I only need to have, what, 12+ dice to reasonably get it off?


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## whittsy (Feb 8, 2013)

MidnightSun said:


> That's my opinion also - killing a bunch of T3 guys with 4+ cover/5+ invuln saves is so easy it's not even funny. Perils is reasonably common even with Daemons, which is commonly overlooked. You can plonk a gorillion Pink Horrors on the field, but they don't actually do anything other than sit there and look weird.


Yes, but while you're chewing through my horrors I summoned, my actual force is plowing through the board getting into position. Every turn you waste attacking the summoned pawns, the real force moves up unharmed, you fire at the real force, and the pawns make more pawns etc etc until the pawns are now unstoppable.


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## Silens (Dec 26, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> I think at the moment people are *talking* about using a Daemon Summoning list. I don't know anyone who owns 100+ Lesser Daemons yet.


I've got about 100 lesser daemons... Haven't touched them in years though.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

whittsy said:


> Yes, but while you're chewing through my horrors I summoned, my actual force is plowing through the board getting into position. Every turn you waste attacking the summoned pawns, the real force moves up unharmed, you fire at the real force, and the pawns make more pawns etc etc until the pawns are now unstoppable.


i have to point out the fact that if you summoned so many pawns to force me to deal with them, your real force is probably so weak and psionically oriented you wouldn't realistically harme me nor in assault nor in shooting...i'm thinking at 1500-2000 pts anyway.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Silens said:


> I've got about 100 lesser daemons... Haven't touched them in years though.


*does some quick mental addition*

I have... 137, by my count. Perhaps a few less if I use some of them as Heralds.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

neferhet said:


> i have to point out the fact that if you summoned so many pawns to force me to deal with them, your real force is probably so weak and psionically oriented you wouldn't realistically harme me nor in assault nor in shooting...i'm thinking at 1500-2000 pts anyway.


Not meaning to seem snide here, or anything, but you are aware what a Lord of Change with Staff of Change can do in close combat, right? Statline near a Thirster's, and S8 to boot. Now bringing two or more of those... (Unbound, multiple detachments, whatever)


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Isn't LoC a unique character? Don't think Unbound breaks that.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

Mossy Toes said:


> Not meaning to seem snide here, or anything, but you are aware what a Lord of Change with Staff of Change can do in close combat, right? Statline near a Thirster's, and S8 to boot. Now bringing two or more of those... (Unbound, multiple detachments, whatever)


true. however, it's staggering, in my experience, how easily they fall to bolters or well directed plasmaguns. They cost too much, imo, to be used en masse and in cc


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## Silens (Dec 26, 2010)

Mossy Toes said:


> *does some quick mental addition*
> 
> I have... 137, by my count. Perhaps a few less if I use some of them as Heralds.


Oh, are we counting all daemons that aren't greater daemons or just Core choices? I don't think I've got 137 even with those but it's certainly more than my previous count.


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## IntereoVivo (Jul 14, 2009)

Summoning spam seems like it will be more annoying than anything. 

What we should really be talking about is Fortifications.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

IntereoVivo said:


> What we should really be talking about is Fortifications.


Amen. the amount of D weapons you can bring at 2000 pts is Apocalypse-like... 2 aquila strongpoint, a vortex missile silo, some troops to man them, maybe a couple of gatling turrets... disgusting!!!!


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Silens said:


> Oh, are we counting all daemons that aren't greater daemons or just Core choices? I don't think I've got 137 even with those but it's certainly more than my previous count.


No no, those are just my 'Nettes, Horrors, 'Bearers and 'Letters!


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## Silens (Dec 26, 2010)

Mossy Toes said:


> No no, those are just my 'Nettes, Horrors, 'Bearers and 'Letters!


That's a nicely sized army! I've got 20 Horrors, About 40 Daemonettes and in the region of 40 Bloodletters, I think. A bit less. They're all messed up and in boxes though... I was a terrible 16 year old, not taking good care of my models. I'm very tempted to buy some new Daemons and get the airbrush going on them. I'm sure Bloodletters would be quite an easy job with an airbrush.


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