# My theory about Perturabo and Dorn.



## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I know this is just a fan-theory, but I will voice it still.

Peturbo launched the deadliest Black Crusade (even more so than all of Abbaddon's put together), it was stopped by Rogal Dorn. At the expense of Dorn's life and Pertubo being banished for the last 10.000 years after an epic duel at Pertubo's capital-ship. Of course much else happens inbetween, but it's just my theory as anything else seems sort of weak and senseless regarding Dorn.

What do you people think?


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Interesting thought. Which number Black Crusade do you think it could have been. I'm thinking somewhere between 1 and 3 as a guess as I don't have the years they occurred in, to hand.

We know from the Chaos Space Marines 6th Codex that Perturabo attacked the Imperium in 400 M32 and invoked a Nurgle plague on the world of Toil. This would be around the correct time for an early black crusade. However doesn't the fluff about Dorn's death state his sacrifice prevented the black crusade from entering the Imperium itself? (Can't remember for certain).


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Ehm zero, as only Abbaddon numbers his Black crusades.

I know about that one. I was just going on about something I think should be fluffed out. I mean Dorn and Perturbo should be a duel made in heaven or hell.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

There's zero supporting evidence. 

We know Dorn's fate and we know where Pertubo is. Dorn died in one of the early (the first?) Black Crusades. Peretubo has been on the Iron Warriors Fortress-Daemon World. There's no wiggle room, your theory doesn't fit.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Rems said:


> There's zero supporting evidence.
> 
> We know Dorn's fate and we know where Pertubo is. Dorn died in one of the early (the first?) Black Crusades. Peretubo has been on the Iron Warriors Fortress-Daemon World. There's no wiggle room, your theory doesn't fit.


That's your opinion. I see plenty of wiggle-room as the thing is a giant black hole. I mean there is no proof that Perturbo didn't launch a really great Black Crusade and Dorn deserve a great death in my opinion. And there haven't been any mentioning of Dorn stopping Abbaddon's First Black Crusade.


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## redmapa (Nov 9, 2011)

Beaviz81 said:


> I know this is just a fan-theory, but I will voice it still.
> 
> Peturbo launched the deadliest Black Crusade (even more so than all of Abbaddon's put together), it was stopped by Rogal Dorn. At the expense of Dorn's life and Pertubo being banished for the last 10.000 years after an epic duel at Pertubo's capital-ship. Of course much else happens inbetween, but it's just my theory as anything else seems sort of weak and senseless regarding Dorn.
> 
> What do you people think?


Ive actually always thought Dorn died fighting Daemon Prince Perturarbo, Dorn makes a final stand against waves of traitors allowing Crimson Fists and Black Templars to retreat out of the flagship when suddenly Perturarbo charges on and a fight ensues between the two primarchs, the fight seems to be at a stalemate but Perturarbo shows his final form as a bio-mechanical demon prince and proceeds to kill Dorn by slamming him agaisnt the ships floor with his thunder hammer

Its a very fitting end imo and the only thing that can kill a primarch is another primarch


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

redmapa said:


> Ive actually always thought Dorn died fighting Daemon Prince Perturarbo, Dorn makes a final stand against waves of traitors allowing Crimson Fists and Black Templars to retreat out of the flagship when suddenly Perturarbo charges on and a fight ensues between the two primarchs, the fight seems to be at a stalemate but Perturarbo shows his final form as a bio-mechanical demon prince and proceeds to kill Dorn by slamming him agaisnt the ships floor with his thunder hammer
> 
> Its a very fitting end imo and the only thing that can kill a primarch is another primarch


Except the unspectacular death of Dorn I pretty much agree to your POV regarding this. Dorn just deserves to be awesome for once.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Beaviz81 said:


> That's your opinion. I see plenty of wiggle-room as the thing is a giant black hole. I mean there is no proof that Perturbo didn't launch a really great Black Crusade and Dorn deserve a great death in my opinion. And there haven't been any mentioning of Dorn stopping Abbaddon's First Black Crusade.


The most recent fluff we have on those two's post Heresy activity comes from Index Astartes. Reading the text it's unclear if it was one of Abaddon's Black Crusades. The text reads that 'Dorn made his final stand aboard the crippled Sword of Sacrilige, a Despoiler class battleship that had been rammed by the last Imperial Fist cruiser. The final report of the serving chief librarian commends their souls to the emperor before Dorn led a desperate attack on the sword's bridge. '

Later the rest of the Fists and a contingent of the Navy arrived to wipe out the scattered and bleeding Chaos force. 

There is zero mention of the Iron Warriors or Pertubo's orchestration of the Crusade. In the Iron Warrior's entry there's zero mention of Pertubo leading any Black Crusades or playing any part in Dorn's death. 

He didn't launch a Black Crusade 'deadlier than any other'. He's not banished but 'living' on his daemon world. He's been a daemon prince, and largely without interest in the material realm since the Iron Cage which occurred during The Scouring. 

To me Dorn's death played up the sacrifice angle and mentality of the Fists. This is the Chapter who willing subject themselves to the Pain Glove. They fight on with no regard to tactical viability. They seem to actively look for situations to sacrifice themselves. 

Dorn himself was unhinged mentally. He considered the Emperor's 'death' his fault. He couldn't understand the reasons for the Codex Astartes and viewed it as an attack on his integrity and loyalty. He went into the Iron Cage, a suicide mission if there ever was one. He had seen his brother's disappear or die one by one. He was nervous by the increasing veneration the Primarch's attracted. 

Then the Black Crusade hits, the prefect opportunity to die gloriously. An honorable 'way out'.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

The fluff about Dorn's death always annoyed me. Why would his sons only bring back his hand? I can't see them leaving his body behind if it was relatively intact. It sounds like all they found was the hand.

On top of that, what is capable of killing a primarch in combat apart from another primarch? Even greater demons and titans have had their asses kicked by them. While I'm not a fan of having a load of loyalist primarchs wandering around the EoT waiting in the wings to swoop back in and save the day, I'm prone to believe that he may still be waging his own crusade.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> The fluff about Dorn's death always annoyed me. Why would his sons only bring back his hand? I can't see them leaving his body behind if it was relatively intact. It sounds like all they found was the hand.
> 
> On top of that, what is capable of killing a primarch in combat apart from another primarch? Even greater demons and titans have had their asses kicked by them. While I'm not a fan of having a load of loyalist primarchs wandering around the EoT waiting in the wings to swoop back in and save the day, I'm prone to believe that he may still be waging his own crusade.


They recovered all of him, but the hands are kept in a seperate shrine so the don't have to deactivate the stasis field on his whole body whenever they get a new Chapter Master.

Midnight


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## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> They recovered all of him, but the hands are kept in a seperate shrine so the don't have to deactivate the stasis field on his whole body whenever they get a new Chapter Master.
> 
> Midnight


Guilliman is the one encased in a stasis field. Dorn's hands are within stasis fields but his actual body is encased in clear amber.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Yeah Dorn is embalmed in alabaster. His skeleton, so he is quite dead, and his hands lies in the halls where the Chapter Master sits being skrimaged.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Rems said:


> There is zero mention of the Iron Warriors or Pertubo's orchestration of the Crusade. In the Iron Warrior's entry there's zero mention of Pertubo leading any Black Crusades or playing any part in Dorn's death.


To be fair: No one is mentioned as orchestrating that Crusade, nor are any Legions specifically mentioned. There is a fair deal of wiggle room, certainly enough to slot Perturabo and Dorn's show-down in. It would certainly not be the biggest retcon the HH series has given us.



> He's not banished but 'living' on his daemon world. He's been a daemon prince, and largely without interest in the material realm since the Iron Cage which occurred during The Scouring.


We don't really know that. While yes, Perturabo hasn't really been said to be doing anything it doesn't seem right that he would be doing nothing for thousands of years. A Crusade is well within his ability to muster/lead and his banishment would explain why he hasn't left since. After all, Magnus, Mortarion and Angron have all been banished and the result has them chilling on their planets, just like Perturabo's doing.



> To me Dorn's death played up the sacrifice angle and mentality of the Fists.


I agree. But I don't see how Perturabo's involvement changes this.


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## daxxglax (Apr 24, 2010)

I have to agree with Rems; Dorn was looking for a reason to sacrifice himself:



Index Astartes II said:


> Rogal Dorn outlived many of his brother primarchs and each loss saddened him greatly. Also, as fewer Primarchs remained, each began to attract an unhealthy respect. With the Emperor on Terra, some distant systems began to deify the Primarchs they encountered. To Dorn, only the Emperor was worthy of this attention and he feared the consequences. However, sacrifice came easily to Dorn.


Dorn seemed to have felt really out of place in the new Imperium. He blamed himself for the Emperor's death and with the Second Founding, the loss of his brothers, etc. he was increasingly alienated from Imperium he helped to build. At this point, "sacrifice came easily to Dorn."

It doesn't really make sense to me that Dorn would be killed by Perturabo aboard the _Sword of Sacrilege._ From the way it's described, _Sword of Sacrilege_ sounds like it was just another warship, and it would have had to just happened to have contained Perturabo. I find the seemingly-ignominious manner of his death kind of fitting, being killed in a desperate suicide attack that ended up saving the whole Cadian sector. It's not the honor or the glory of his death that matters, but his willingness to sacrifice himself to serve the greater good. Being killed by Perturabo doesn't really fit thematically, either. Perturabo had his chance at the Iron Cage, but he lacked the faith and the willingness to make the ultimate sacrifice, unlike Dorn.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I really hope Dorn isn't killed by a bunch of marines...I mean, really? 

Imperial Fists are the loyalist equivalent of Word Bearers. Need the traitors to look good? Have them smack around Dorn and his Fists!


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## Iraqiel (May 21, 2008)

Rogal Dorn is my favourite primarch, and I think his objection to the codex astartes must have been more than that he didn't understand it. After all, the HH series puts him on Terra, not only fortifying the planet but understudying his father and working alongside Malcador the sigilite. That and his decision of how he would split his fists - into the black templars, the crimson fists and his own chapter, says to me that he understood that Guilleman was creating a world that had no place for him, and that he saw the need and the value of passion in defeating chaos. 

Having said that, for all that the Black Templars are the largest chapter, dispersed across the imperium crusading against the wytch and the heretic and, of course, the traitor... They seem to have been swallowed by the warp since the third edition, last being seen in small numbers on Armageddon.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

The Imperial Fists was not a flexible legion that easily could be split up, that's stated in fluff. And Dorn disagreed with much of Guilliman's vision of the future of the IOM or so it seems. But even so an anti-climatic death is the last thing I want for Dorn. He deserves an awesome death like the other Primarches with the exception of Kurze. I mean random Space Marines just mowing Dorn down seems to break the law of Primarch killing Primarch as they are living gods of war in my interpretation.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Beaviz81 said:


> Dorn disagreed with much of Guilliman's vision of the future of the IOM or so it seems.


He wanted to consolidate and save what they could and keep going with the Imperial project, where as Guilliman wanted to go in a completely different direction, breaking everything down and starting from scratch, a clean slate so to speak.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Indeed and Dorn betrayed that vision with the Black Templars, but the compensation was to spread them around.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

In prince of crows, Conrad Curze have visions of the fates of the Primarchs acompagnying the Emperor. He sees Dorn bought down by a horde of ravening killers, their knives tasting the blood of a god.

So clearly to me, it was a heroic last stand, he probably killed hundreds, but was bogged down by sheer numbers and essentially recieved a death by a thousand paper cuts.


Heres the exact quote:
The first demigod, clad in wrought gold, inclined his white-haired head in majestic acknowledgement – a king greeting an equal. ‘I am Rogal Dorn,’ he said. The Night Haunter said nothing. In his mind’s eye, he saw the giant die, dragged down by a hundred murderers in a dark tunnel, their knives and swords wet with the warrior’s blood.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> Heres the exact quote:
> The first demigod, clad in wrought gold, inclined his white-haired head in majestic acknowledgement – a king greeting an equal. ‘I am Rogal Dorn,’ he said. The Night Haunter said nothing. In his mind’s eye, he saw the giant die, dragged down by a hundred murderers in a dark tunnel, their knives and swords wet with the warrior’s blood.


All I can say is...I hope that vision is inaccurate


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Even so a vision is just that. A vision.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Even so a vision is just that. A vision.


He also had a vision of his own death and we all know how accurate that was. So the information we have is a vision from a reliable source, information that he died on board a chaos warship and no information if Perturabo was involved on this Black crusade let alone on the same ship as Dorn. While it's nice theory, the little evidence we do have lean towards a different outcome. But there is still wiggle room for said theory, it's just getting smaller.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

In the same sequence in the book night haunter also had visions of the fates of Ferrus Manus. Someone held his skull by the empty eyesockets. True. Lorgar crowned by a halo of psychic fire - Ascended. Also true. Fuigrim - a hazy slithering thing. Also true, the naga thing he turned into as a daemon. So its pretty plausible that Dorn's fate is also true as he got 3 others right.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

A source would be nice, but it seems likely. Which is too bad as I love Dorn.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Beaviz81 said:


> A source would be nice, but it seems likely. Which is too bad as I love Dorn.


I already told you, the story Prince of Crows, which is in the anthology Shadows of Treachery. The story written by ADB.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

One thing is certain, if Perturabo did orchestrate the Black Crusade which felled Dorn it certainly would not have been the "deadliest... more so than all of Abaddon's put together". Such a point is laughable.



Beaviz81 said:


> The Imperial Fists was not a flexible legion that easily could be split up, that's stated in fluff. And Dorn disagreed with much of Guilliman's vision of the future of the IOM or so it seems. But even so an anti-climatic death is the last thing I want for Dorn. He deserves an awesome death like the other Primarches with the exception of Kurze. I mean random Space Marines just mowing Dorn down seems to break the law of Primarch killing Primarch as they are living gods of war in my interpretation.


I really don't understand how single-handedly stopping a Black Crusade is an anti-climactic death...

If the account of Alpharius's death is to be believed, a single swipe of Guilliman's sword killed him. Fulgrim slashed Guilliman's throat. Curze allowed himself to be murdered by a mortal assassin. Hardly "awesome deaths". 

If anything, Dorn's death was more meaningful and climatic than several others. But just because he wasn't killed by another Primarch, people moan. I don't get it. 



Beaviz81 said:


> Even so a vision is just that. A vision.


True. But every other one of his visions (relating to the Primarch's ascensions or deaths) from _Prince of Crows_ proved accurate, it would be strange if his one concerning Dorn's death wasn't.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

That's the point ChildofEmpy. He wasn't killed by another Primarch, and for a god of war which is a Primarch that's an anti-climatic death.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

So what, Dorn was of a fairly masochistic if not suicidial mood post Heresy. Seeing what the Imperium was becomming and feeling guilt over the death of his father. He probably wellcomed the idea of a last stand to hold back the horde while his companions crippled the chaos vessel and ended said Black Crusade. Being slated a pretty desperate attack, Dorn was arguably the only one capable of holding back the legions of cannon fodder for a short while to finish the job.

For all his power, he was still but a single demigod.


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## sadLor (Jan 18, 2012)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> If the account of Alpharius's death is to be believed, a single swipe of Guilliman's sword killed him. Fulgrim slashed Guilliman's throat. Curze allowed himself to be murdered by a mortal assassin. Hardly "awesome deaths".
> 
> If anything, Dorn's death was more meaningful and climatic than several others. But just because he wasn't killed by another Primarch, people moan. I don't get it.


Agreed. Context means more than the method of death. Curze's is the perfect example. Beheaded by a mortal assassin. A god owned by some nobody mortal? A mortal who was later *ahem* destroyed by a space marine.

Pretty lame if you just look at it like that...but the context behind the death gives it so much meaning.

Once the BL writers actually show us the death of Dorn (and Alpharius, Guilliman, etc.)... I'm sure they will be suitably 'epic' in context. Although there have been rumblings about Vulkan Lives (I've tried to avoid reading spoilers)... 

that may render my point moot...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

sadLor said:


> Agreed. Context means more than the method of death.


Exactly. 

Curze was murdered by a mortal, but by allowing himself to be killed (apparently) vindicated his life and visions.

Alpharius's death proved the superiority of his strategy and teachings over Guilliman's.

Dorn's death may have saved the recovering Imperium.

According to one version of the tale, Sanguinius sacrificed himself in order to enable the Emperor to overcome Horus. 

Ferrus Manus, one of the only Primarchs to have had an "epic death" according to some of the above posters, was one of the only ones who died (arguably) pointlessly. He may have been killed at the climax of a titanic duel between two demi-gods, but his death probably meant the less overall. Besides, let's be realistic about this, it would have been highly infeasible and unrealistic if every Primarch who died was only killed by another Primarch.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

I think Dorn's death is suitable to the Post-Imperium. By this point the age of legends is coming to a close and Dorn is one of the last sparks to gutter out.


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