# What should you [I]never[/I] take in an army?



## ChaosDefilerofUlthuan (Jan 25, 2011)

Aside form the obvious ones (eathereals, stealth teams, vespids, ironically all from the Tau codex) which units should you never take in a certain army & also, can anyone counter ones people have posted?


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

things that do not fit one's playing style.


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## ChaosDefilerofUlthuan (Jan 25, 2011)

Fallen said:


> things that do not fit one's playing style.


 Valid point, but I'm more talking about what should never be taken in your average game, or a specific army/build possibly to help others generate good lists.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Take what you want and laugh if you get your anus enlarged.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

small sample from a spattering of armies I'm familiar with:

Dark Eldar:
Mandrakes

Space Marines:
Whirlwinds

Chaos Space Marines (oh boy...):
Spawn
Possessed
Dreadnoughts
Bikers are questionable
Summoned Daemons
Chaos Land Raiders are balls


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

ChaosDefilerofUlthuan said:


> Valid point, but I'm more talking about what should never be taken in your average game, or a specific army/build possibly to help others generate good lists.


other than things you do not own i would never say that there are things to avoid, besides the CSM fast attack section most of the time, for your "average game" some times you just proxy the unit once to see how it actually works and see why you should/shouldnt take it.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

Imperial guard
Special weapons squads with snipers. 
basilisks no matter how awesome they are.


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## ChaosDefilerofUlthuan (Jan 25, 2011)

clever handle said:


> small sample from a spattering of armies I'm familiar with:
> 
> Dark Eldar:
> Mandrakes
> ...


 To counter The whirlwind point, against horde Nids thoseie plates will smash them apart. I dis-agree with the land raider because they are about as good as the loyalist equivalent if missing the PotMS. Summoned Daemons paired with chosen will eat Tau apart.


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## ChaosDefilerofUlthuan (Jan 25, 2011)

ChaosDefilerofUlthuan said:


> To counter The whirlwind point, against horde Nids thoseie plates will smash them apart. I dis-agree with the land raider because they are about as good as the loyalist equivalent if missing the PotMS. Summoned Daemons paired with chosen will eat Tau apart.


 On a large battlefield basilisks will obliterate MEqs or TEqs especially crons as, they annihilate the average warrior


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

you quoted yourself.......


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

ChaosDefilerofUlthuan said:


> On a large battlefield basilisks will obliterate MEqs or TEqs especially crons as, they annihilate the average warrior


Earthshaker is AP3 so not eating up TEQ's not like the Demolisher or Medusa. The minimum range of the Earthshaker means you pretty much always have to fire it directly, so why not use Medusas.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

You really should be more specific with your question; it reads as if you assume competative play is the only way to play. If I wanted an all Thousand Sons army, it would be fucking terrible from a competative standpoint, but it's a fluff-bunny's wet dream, so really, whilst some may say TSs have no place on the tabletop, others would disagree...

Maybe the thread should be retitled to "What units rules/statlines are so terrible that they make you want to violently projectile vomit all over your codex?" 

Assuming you want us to submit things you should never use competatively, I'd like to submit Swooping Hawks and Shining Spears for Eldar.



ChaosDefilerofUlthuan said:


> To counter The whirlwind point, against horde Nids thoseie plates will smash them apart. I dis-agree with the land raider because they are about as good as the loyalist equivalent if missing the PotMS.


Gotta say, Whirlwinds really aren't worth a hoot in a proper size game, but I've seen them work wonders at 500pts. Trouble with Chaos Landraiders is a) there's nothing particularly scary riding inside of them and b) they're an assault vehicle with lascannons. meh. If they had the crusader variant, or even a redeemer, I'd be inclined to agree, but spiky godhammers just aren't that great. Maybe not so much as to never ever use them, but they are shit. Oh god, I promised myself I never would, but I think I may have just inadvertantly bitched about the CSM 'dex... 



ChaosDefilerofUlthuan said:


> Summoned Daemons paired with chosen will eat Tau apart.


Congrats, they're usable against a single codex which is stuck in 4th edition and has a single decent competative build. And I must say that a properly built Tau army should easily be able to defend against that; I assume the chosen infiltrate with icons and DS the daemons down? That's what kroot bubble-wraps were invented for.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

ChaosDefilerofUlthuan said:


> On a large battlefield basilisks will obliterate MEqs or TEqs especially crons as, they annihilate the average warrior


i think you meant to quote me, since only I mentioned Basilisks, also i usualy only play standard 6"/4" format battlefields due to a lack of experienced players i prefer this combined with standard battle scenarios. so i get to shoot like 1 time and then its Oh shit to close.


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

scscofield said:


> you quoted yourself.......


If it wasn't for me seeing it, I wouldn't believe such a thing were possible :suicide:


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Why take a Whirlwind when in the same slot you can take a cheaper, better-armoured, and roughly similar offensively capable Predator Destructor? Both have Str 5 AP4 shots, but the Predator (Whilst having less of those shots in the first place) also has an anti-transport Autocannon.

Equally, why take Basilisks when you could have Hydras, Leman Russes, Medusas, or Manticores instead? The AP3 is nice, but a standard Leman Russ has that too, and realistically how many boards do you play on that are larger than 72" across?

Strength 9? Doesn't really make that much of a difference; I assume that you're using a Basilisk as anti-infantry, and point A; you don't exactly see a lot much T7 infantry and B: Str 8 already IDs most things in 40k, so the extra pip of Strength is wasted.

Leman Russ also has better armour, can fire on the move, can also take a lascannon to counter armour, and has a wide variety of sponson weapons.

Midnight


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## lemage (Jul 21, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> Equally, why take Basilisks when you could have Hydras, Leman Russes, Medusas, or Manticores instead? The AP3 is nice, but a standard Leman Russ has that too, and realistically how many boards do you play on that are larger than 72" across?
> 
> Midnight


well i thought basilisks could indirect fire , and just plonk them behind a bit of terrain and there deadly. but still my argument fails really. i don't know enough about IG to argue on their part. 
and also the size of the basilisk's earth shaker puts of most people like me from trying to advance.


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## Supersonic Banana (Jul 23, 2010)

Flash Gitz. They are just too expensive for their crappy BS.
Sky ray gunships because they dont have enough shots to make them worth their points. Basically a very expensive missle launcher.


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## Sworn Radical (Mar 10, 2011)

clever handle said:


> Dark Eldar:
> Mandrakes


Care to elaborate ?


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

lemage said:


> well i thought basilisks could indirect fire , and just plonk them behind a bit of terrain and there deadly. but still my argument fails really. i don't know enough about IG to argue on their part.
> and also the size of the basilisk's earth shaker puts of most people like me from trying to advance.


Basilisks can fire in both modes, but if firing indirect I prefer the Manticore, and if firing direct I'll take a Medusa instead...S10 has its benefits:biggrin:

That said, Basilisks aren't a poor choice...it just comes down to how competitive you want to get.

The only HS choices in the IG Codex I wouldn't choose from a truly competitive viewpoint are -

Punisher, Vanquisher, Exterminator, Eradicator, and Deathstrike

and that's also based on if there are cheaper choices that perform a similar role, so not purely on efficiency....oh and personal experience as well, because everyone's Meta can be different.


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## lemage (Jul 21, 2011)

truth is no unit should ever be considered useless. never consider a unit to be useless as it can comeback and bit you in your ass.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

lemage said:


> truth is no unit should ever be considered useless. never consider a unit to be useless as it can comeback and bit you in your ass.


Not the ones I suggested...and of course there are games where they achieve something significant, but they're few and far between, which makes them poor choices---ymmv.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

lemage said:


> well i thought basilisks could indirect fire , and just plonk them behind a bit of terrain and there deadly. but still my argument fails really. i don't know enough about IG to argue on their part.
> and also the size of the basilisk's earth shaker puts of most people like me from trying to advance.


They can fire indirectly, but then there's the matter of the terrible accuracy, and the minimum range. In most games you start closer than that to the enemy, so you may just be able to kill a few of their backfield units. The Russ can do that too, but can also be used as a frontline unit. If you wanted to have the Basilisk firing indirectly, then you may as well use a MoO. Similar accuracy, and much cheaper.

Midnight


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

lemage said:


> truth is no unit should ever be considered useless. never consider a unit to be useless as it can comeback and bit you in your ass.


This is half true. Your opponent will bring whatever units he wants and you will have to deal with them. Sometimes any unit can do well, and cause you grief. However, you would still be advised not to take something just because it got lucky once.

There are quite a lot of units that do the same thing, but one of them simply does it better. A prime example would be chaos posessed and khorne berzerkers, where the zerkers are troops, cost less points and are more effective in cc. Posessed aren't completely useless and will beat up quite a lot of things, but zerkers are better, and there's nothing the posessed can really do that the zerkers can't.

There are also units that fail to do the thing they are meant for, or that don't seem to do anything all that well. Vespids seem to be designed to kill marines, but they don't win a fight against guys with bolters, so they are pointless. Swooping hawks are an example of a unit whose job just isn't clear. They can do some pretty ineffective harassment, and not much else.

There are whole codices that shouldn't really be used in particular ways because other books do the same thing better. So it would be unwise to play a terminator army based on the vanilla codex when you could play deathwing and have a bunch of free upgrades. The marine codex can still make a few decent lists though of course, some including terminators, but if you want 20 terminators you shouldn't use it.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

The only one i would argue with hobo on is the exterminator. There MAY be times when the rapid fire of the hydra would be better in a more heavily armored package which might make the exterminator viable. Other than that i cannot argue.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

shaantitus said:


> The only one i would argue with hobo on is the exterminator. There MAY be times when the rapid fire of the hydra would be better in a more heavily armored package which might make the exterminator viable. Other than that i cannot argue.


No, I'll give you that one mate...the Exterminator is no. 4 on my 'efficient Russ build' list, but I do prefer 2 Hydras. In the end though if people prefer 
AV14 to AV12...cool:victory:


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Someguy said:


> There are quite a lot of units that do the same thing, but one of them simply does it better. A prime example would be chaos possessed and khorne berzerkers, where the zerkers are troops, cost less points and are more effective in cc. Posessed aren't completely useless and will beat up quite a lot of things, but zerkers are better, and there's nothing the possessed can really do that the zerkers can't.


Well stated.
Zerks>Possessed, this is a good, definable example of a useless unit.


lemage said:


> truth is no unit should ever be considered useless. never consider a unit to be useless as it can comeback and bit you in your ass.


Why is it only new people/uncompetitive people have this assumption?
SOME UNITS ARE AMAZINGLY USELESS YOU (other respected poster). I CANNOT CAPITALIZE THIS SENTENCE ENOUGH TO REFUTE AND BERATE YOUR (unjustified), (unsupported) (opinion). YOU MAKE ME ANGRY WHERE I THINK WITH SUCH (poorly expressed thoughts without valid reasoning).
Seriously. If the only thing your units are capable of doing is eating ass....


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## lemage (Jul 21, 2011)

LordWaffles said:


> .
> 
> Why is it only new people/uncompetitive people have this assumption?
> SOME UNITS ARE AMAZINGLY USELESS YOU (other respected poster). I CANNOT CAPITALIZE THIS SENTENCE ENOUGH TO REFUTE AND BERATE YOUR (unjustified), (unsupported) (opinion). YOU MAKE ME ANGRY WHERE I THINK WITH SUCH (poorly expressed thoughts without valid reasoning).
> Seriously. If the only thing your units are capable of doing is eating ass....


lol. the reason why i say this is becuase of alot of new players go into battle thinking "omg how could he put that unit on the table my friend says its useless" then two turns into the game and bame its gone and done alot of damage. 
some units are poor choices and can do very little, but never underestimate it.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

You shouldn't underestimate units, just as you shouldn't overestimate them. The fact is, units are not equal value for the points you pay for them. If you take the more efficient units you will do better, on average.

Just because a bad unit can occasionally get lucky, that is not a good enough reason for spending points on it when you could have a better unit.

If you want to make up artificial fluff reasons to handicap yourself, go ahead. But that isn't a tactical choice, it's something else, and isn't relevant to the tactics forum.

Obviously, you don't have a say in what your opponent brings. Occasionally he will show up with a "useless" unit and occasionally it will kill something. That doesn't disprove the fact that it's a bad unit.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Someguy said:


> You shouldn't underestimate units, just as you shouldn't overestimate them. The fact is, units are not equal value for the points you pay for them. If you take the more efficient units you will do better, on average.
> 
> Just because a bad unit can occasionally get lucky, that is not a good enough reason for spending points on it when you could have a better unit.
> 
> ...


QFT.

Also, units become steadliy worse as more books are released, and other things supplant them. For example, when the current Eldar book came out, Harlequins were the be-all and end-all of the Elite section. Dark Reapers were viable, if inferior to Falcons. Wraithlords were eminently viable, even nerfed so hard.

Now though, Dark Reapers are so rubbish I would laugh in the face of anyone who told me they were on par with other Devastator equivalents, even Chaos Chosen. Wraithlords are similarly bad - mostly because the vendetta exists, but also Long Fangs, Razorbacks, and Poison weapons see it confined to the shelf.

To continue with Eldar, by this stage of the Codex's lifespan, the number of crap units vastly outnumbers the good. I would probably never take, in competitive play, any of the following:

Phoenix Lords (any)
Avatar
Warlocks
Striking Scorpions
Howling Banshees
Harlequins
Wraithguard
Guardians
Rangers/Pathfinders
Swooping Hawks
Shining Spears
Dark Reapers
Artillery
Wraithlord


And Warp Spiders are only on the list because I paint mine in Spiderman costumes, and I love them conceptually. They certainly aren't worth twice the cost of a Sister of Battle (for now) and never were. Similarly, War Walkers and Guardian Jetbikes simply aren't as good as the alternatives, but I could see them at a push.

Wraithguard are, and always were, tripe - and warlocks are mucho overcosted senor.

Makes me envy the Dark Kin, who only have to suffer Hekatrix Bloodbrides and a couple of their Special Characters. 

Even the Talos is better than Swooping Hawks, although in fairness Hellions are trash if not Troops.


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## lemage (Jul 21, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> QFT.
> 
> Also, units become steadliy worse as more books are released, and other things supplant them.


i agree , everything slowly getting worse apart from any poster boy army's. which even though i play sm's that annoys the hell out of me , cause i want to start a completely different army.

but anyway i agree with who said over estimation is just as big a problem as under estimation.


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## sir_m1ke (Dec 7, 2008)

Pyrovores

I dont even think an explanation is needed......


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