# Versus... Daemons of Chaos (7th)



## squeek

Hi all,

Continuing with the theme of top tier armies, next has to be Daemons of Chaos. If you want to add your suggestions as to who Fantasy Versus should deal with next, go here for the general thread.

So, DoC, how do you combat an army that can be so many different things? Depending on which god is favoured you face devastating magic, not least the multi-Tzeentch Heralds list that can easily bring 12 PD to the fray, or the Khorne combat monster that is Bloodletter hordes with Bloodthirsters for extra fun, very powerful characters, mass fear causing units and plenty of very powerful special and rare choices, that together make it a top tier tournament army.

How do you plan when facing DoC?


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## jigplums

they have lots of units that can't take a punch, low toughness so you can take the fight to horrors, letters and daemonettes.


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## jax40kplyr

Well can give some tactics/weaknesses I've found with playing DoC:

Bloodthirster: Combat res, coupled with flanking charges. Also helps to issue a challenge, as I've found that statistically he's going to get about 4-5 wounds on a unit. This allows you to keep your guys rank bonuses. Considering if the Bloodthirster charges into a fully ranked up unit (as many seem to do as they consider him invincible), he's already at a -5 to combat res with ranks, outnumber, banner. Or - do the easier way - shoot him down.

Keeper of Secrets: Basically the same as the Bloodthrister, although has armor piercing so your at -4 to your armor saves. Combat res is the way to go.

Lord of Change: He's okay in combat - his magic can be pretty bad though. I would deal with him in the same way as a Lvl 4 caster, but combat res is my favorite way to go.

Unclean One: If you can get him in close combat - great. He moves pretty slow so he generally won't be charging a ranked unit on his own. He has alot of wounds, but is pretty bad in close combat - 4 attacks, should kill 2 guys - you'll win the combat by 3 at least. 

Heralds: They are okay, but if you can knock them out then the units they are with suffer greatly. I generally don't end up killing them personally - alot of the time they dissapear through combat res.
Herald of Khorne - high strength, low toughness. Pick him off with ranged fire or magic if possible. If you have a decent character with an armor save and immune to killing blow - challenge him.
Herald of Nurgle - Tough and lasts awhile. Reg makes him pretty annoying, but flaming weapons will take care of him.
Herald of Slaanesh - LOTS of attacks and stronger than daemonettes, but only T3. Challenge it with someone with a good armor save - knock it out in no time.
Herald of Tzeentch - they usually try and stay out of combat to maximize their spells. Horrors are pretty bad in combat so get them in CC and watch them die.

Bloodletters - high strength, but only 1 attack and low toughness. Seem very good, but charge them/shoot them up and you'll be okay. Magic Res makes magic difficult sometimes, but not really a scary unit.
Daemonettes - High Int/Lots of attacks, but low Str/T. Shoot or charge with a decent armor save unit - you should win.
Plaguebearers - High T, Str and Reg (with Herald). These guys don't see alot of combat damage from themselves (low WS), but win through combat res and fear. Try and stay out of combat with them - magic and shooting, preferably with flaming attacks.
Horrors - a unit that is a wizard. Pick them off at range with shooting and try and get your units into combat. 

Fiends of Slaanesh - very, very fast and decent in HTH. Shoot / magic/attack - just don't let them get a flank charge.
Bloodcrushers- good on the charge and can hit hard, but suffer from lack of ranks, outnumber and banners (unless they tool them up). Usually find a Herald of Khorne on a bloodletter with them - he'll have a 0+ armor save. They only have 1 wound each so best bet - shoot them.
Beasts of Nurgle - tough, have reg and poison, but a random number of attacks and crappy WS. Shoot and magic them.
Flamer of Tzeentch- these guys are pretty broken. Don't let them run around the battlefield - I would make them a top priority. Although a random number of attacks, a unit of 5 can put out 30 Str 4 flaming attacks A TURN, with a BS of 4. Plus they're skirmishing 2 wound models at T5. Ouch.

Screamers - really a distraction unit. If you let them fly down your battle lines, you can take a couple hits, but are expensive for what they do. Can march block you though so I'd shoot them as the opportunity presents itself.
Flesh hounds - pretty good in HTH and are very fast. High magic res = need to shoot them or win through some good combat phases. If they get a flank charge, you'll be hurting.
Nurglings - okay they scout, but low T and no reg. Basically an annoyance that you should shoot up if nothign else to shoot.
Mounted Daemonettes - just like daemonettes but insanely fast. These girls are built for flank charges or getting to your warmachines on the second turn. Low toughness so I'd shoot them up pretty quick.

Overrall - although everyone seems to say that DoC are an insanely powerful army, I find they overrall suffer from a lack of toughness and crappy armor saves. Yes they do cause fear, have some interesting magic spells and pretty hard character choices, but it is balanced out with point costs. If your opponent is dying to field that Greater Daemon - he knows every warmachine is going to be sighting in on it. Yes they do have a ward save, but the low toughness among most of the models balances it out. If you have decent shooting and magic, I don't see you having alot of problems with DoC. Just my thoughts . . .


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## Green Knight

sweet work, jax40kplyr. I can not wait to vs the new Daemons, thanks for the info guys


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## jigplums

Great unclean one isn't actually that slow, it has a movement of 6.

Also i think its worth taking into account the gifts that the beasties will be taking as that can make a massive difference. 

so the thirster for example would probably have at least soul hunger? meaning he can re-roll failed to hit rolls in cc....every round. As he will be hitting on 3's and then probably wounding on 2's he'll probably kill 5/6 models per round. he can take a gift that gives him 2d6+2 attacks which on average he becomes a BEAST and will munch through a unit on his own quite nicely. Or he could be str 10 and batter dragons/steamtanks knights etc although i don't feel he needs it unless u expect lots of 1/2+ armour saves.

another good one for him is the armour that makes magical weapons count as mundane, meaning that character that you thought would give him a good kicking, will probably do nothing. [good luck with that karlfranz].
if he doesnt take that he's likely to have 3+ armour save, which doesn't seem like much, but makes a massive difference against any lucky wounds you may have gotten in with low str models, and also for example str5 guys gives you 2 5+saves along with the ward which is going to be 50% of those wounds you manage to get off on 5+ will bounce off.


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## jigplums

keeper is likely IMO to have a gift which lets you make a unit either flee or charge him. This with his movement 10" makes him nasty to tackle as you really have to protect any vulnerable units. Also he will likely re-roll to hit as well[as its awesome] and due to ASF he'll get to attack you first so anything you throw at him should expect to face a beating first


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## jigplums

Overall the main thing you can use against daemons is that they are immune to psychology and therefore can't flee.

and take into account that imo there big strength is in there really good mv. Guys like a lord of change are quite hard to tie down to cc because they have wings and can just fly away from danger, whilst spanking off lots of spells at you.


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## ROCDOCTA

The key to taking daemons down is to use mass low strength attacks ie i use ghouls in ranks of 5. that throws out 11 attacks to the front. Due to being strength 3, the 5+ ward save is now really like hand weapon and shield armour save. hardly over powering. things like saurus, free company etc should do well vs daemons, whereas high strength, low number of attacks will average less hits.

also most balanced daemon lists have very little magic defense. khorne mono lists have 2 dispell dice. non targetting magic such as OK, VC or TK will put alot of spells out without much hassle. 

blade of realities on a saurus hero is funny as. no ward save now. chops thru most daemons pretty quickly.


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## jigplums

would like to use my ogres vs daemons actually...could be fun


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## Dafistofmork

You have to be careful with the gifts on deamon characters, since most abilties stack.(for example the axe of khorne and the firestorm blade- s7, flaming, kiling blow attacks anyone?). AS do not stack though, so theres some good news.


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## Vaz

ROCDOCTA said:


> The key to taking daemons down is to use mass low strength attacks ie i use ghouls in ranks of 5. that throws out 11 attacks to the front. Due to being strength 3, the 5+ ward save is now really like hand weapon and shield armour save. hardly over powering. things like saurus, free company etc should do well vs daemons, whereas high strength, low number of attacks will average less hits.
> 
> also most balanced daemon lists have very little magic defense. khorne mono lists have 2 dispell dice. non targetting magic such as OK, VC or TK will put alot of spells out without much hassle.
> 
> blade of realities on a saurus hero is funny as. no ward save now. chops thru most daemons pretty quickly.


Why not masses of High Strength Attacks? 10 Marauders, Great Weapons, Champion, Mark of Khorne... That's 11 WS4 Str 5 Attacks... for 95 Pts. Heh.


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## newsun

Flamers are T4 not T5, though S5 they are.

Watch out for flying tzeentch plan rows of troops so that if they hop over one, there is a counter charge right behind to say hello.


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## Gharof von Carstein

tactics vs daemons.... concede take the massacre have a smoke and wait for your next hopefully non daemon match up.

when in friendly game --> just refuse the challenge.

no seriously, id like to have a few things confirmed about daemons,

is it true that:

-heralds should be your prime targets?
-i heard they can have mass DD, how many?
-what is the most seen list at tourneys?
-does anyone have ANY viable tactic on flamers? (shooting doesnt help, charging is suicide and their ward + T4 makes shooting bum)

thx!


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## Critta

Gharof, I grabbed the Daemons army book for my GF last week, so I can give you a few tidbits of information I've picked up from some reading through:

*Heralds*
Give any core unit that they've joined a bonus depending on the unit. Killing them means the unit loses this bonus, seems like killing them in short order would be pretty handy.

*Mass DD*
As well as they allotment of wizards, they can take units of horrors (which are core!) which will count as a wizard (level depends on unit size), so massed DD are entirely possible above the normal limits enforced by number of characters allowed.

*Dealing with flamers*
I recon that VC would have the easiest time with these, get a unit within half range, then charge in your magic phase and deny them the stand and shoot reaction (hope I'm not missing a rule that allows them to stand and shoot regardless)


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## squeek

Gharof von Carstein said:


> Questions...


-heralds should be your prime targets?

I'd say so, as Critta says they buff the unit they are with so keeping them vague Plaguebearers and Horrors are bloody nuisance to shift with a herald; without, not so bad. Nettes and letters are far more dangerous with their heralds in CC.

-i heard they can have mass DD, how many?

Without any special doodahs, Kairos, 3 HoTs and 3 big units of Horrors (size is important for magic heavy Tzeentch) you might expect to see 16 DD straight off.

-what is the most seen list at tourneys?

From reports and in terms of playability you should expect to see lots of horrors, flesh hounds, flamers and oddly lots of MSU furies. Couple that with SCs as you like really (if allowed).

-does anyone have ANY viable tactic on flamers? (shooting doesnt help, charging is suicide and their ward + T4 makes shooting bum)

I think this would be a good Versus... on it's own, but Critta's suggestion works, as would anything immune to flaming attacks in CC.


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## Critta

Is 16 DD not a bit over the top even for what you listed?

Very best case:
Kairos - 2 (or does he get extra, is this what I'm missing?)
3 x HoT - 1 each x 3 = 3 DD
3 Units of horror, max 2 each = 6 DD max
2 for the army

2 + 3 + 6 + 2 = 13DD

And that's supposing the units of horrors are big enough to hit at least level 3, which as I remember is in the 20-25 mark.

Realistically I'd say that you'd be looking at 10DD (Kairos, 3 x HoT, 3 unit 16ish horrors, army dice)

NOTE: I've not got my demons army book, so any info here is dredged from my pretty useless memory, feel free to correct any mistakes or oversights I may have made 

The amount of power dice such a list can kick out is bloody rediculous however!


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## squeek

Indeed I seem to have an inability to add DD dice up for some reason, yes what I suggested was 13 dice you are correct. Perhaps 10 is more likely but it is perfectly possible to hit 13 without too much effort (other than painting lots of horrors).


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## DarknessDawns

my 3000 list for vamps can get up to 23 power dice


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## Critta

Let's not get into a power dice pissing contest. I can pretty much ensure that the demons will win


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## Vaz

DarknessDawns said:


> my 3000 list for vamps can get up to 23 power dice


In 3000 pts, I can shadowpult 3 Combat Characters into killing Range. If they're dispelled, I then have Wufrik (Read: Cheap-as-fuck-General-Killer), Kholek (read Expensive-as-fuck-Everything-killer), and 16 Dragon Ogres (Read Character-killers). Obviously, there's not a lot that can be done about getting through the Daemons magic phase. So do what they don't expect. Shoot them, or charge them. And I'm not saying that Chaos shoot them either. Although I wonder how Twin Hellcannons would work against them... D3 Wounds Str10/5 hits could mess any Greater daemon up... =).


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## newsun

10 DD is what my tzeentch list rocks at 2250 and it's generally enough, though I could easily add more by dropping some screamers and/or flamers.

On thing about daemons is there are many ways you can rock them:

Nurgle pretty well impossible to kill but slow so you move around them and shoot from a distance or set up safe multi charges.

Slaanesh fast as all get up and can have a lot of ASF attacks, possibly denying you any hits back...ever. Frail otherwise will probably suffer against armor

Khorne killing machines bathed in blood, watch out for this army as it's not shooty or magicy and it can rock your world. They can have some wicked heralds with 0+ armor saves on top of the standard daemon save. Kill those chars ASAP.

Tzeentch these guys come from the place when magic is born. This will be their focus. They are weak in combat so engage as quickly as possible. Flamers make sure you don't let them stand and shoot. Watch out for flying and plan accordingly. Learn the spells for tzeentch and the BRB so you know what you want to counter with your generally few DD compared to their PD.

Then there will be combined armies like Khorne/Tzeentch or Nurgle/Slaanesh which can make up for their shortcomings.

Right now I only know of people playing mono god lists but mixed can work too as it becomes a more complete army. It's just so unfluffy and why when you can make solid mono lists?


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## HorusReborn

I'm curious how a Khorne hearald can have a save of 0+? Only for my own info. Though I do know they have more than one wound each... I have never had a bloodcrusher fall in battle yet. I use a mix of Gods with more of a focus on Khorne and Slaanesh, only because they are cheaper models to buy. However... I have since added a unit 6 strong of flamers, and 15 Plague Bearers. Though I have never had any issue with my three 30 strong daemon units, the only army to cause me problems in this years league are the VC. No psychology creates a long, drawn out battle! LOL


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## Dafistofmork

You can not have a 0+ save. gifts can stack, but saves do not, you will just have a 3+ save, a 5+ save and a 5+ ward-a waste of points. weapons on the other hand, do stack-check the FAQ. unless you take the obsidian armour and a jugger- but thats 1+.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

What do you mean saves don't stack? If I have a character with heavy armour and shield while on a barded warhorse, that stacks doesn't it? So what am I missing?


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## Gharof von Carstein

by the by. seeing as this is the vs daemons of chaos thread. id like to know exactly what im up against. can we put some stats up here? maybe some spell descriptions? we are allowed to do that inspite of copy right etc right?


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## Dafistofmork

Wolf lord- if you wear light armour, and put heavy armour on top of it you do not get a 4+ save, just a 6+ and a 5+ save. shields, steeds and scaly skin do stack.
Gharof- no, we can't put stats up, spell effects maybe. you want to know exatly what your up against then you have to buy the army book-sorry.


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## HorusReborn

Gharof von Carstein said:


> by the by. seeing as this is the vs daemons of chaos thread. id like to know exactly what im up against. can we put some stats up here? maybe some spell descriptions? we are allowed to do that inspite of copy right etc right?



Think you're gonna have to go and buy the daemon book, I had to buy all the others, it's only fair!


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## squeek

No we wont be putting stats up, or any other quotes from Armybooks. If you want to know what a specific model or unit can do take a look at the GW store page, scroll down to the bottom and click the little +; here is skulltaker.

Of course you could ask specific questions, but if you want to know the army in more detail than has already been given I would suggest you borrow the book from your local shop for a read, or buy a copy.


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## Vaz

Dafistofmork said:


> Wolf lord- if you wear light armour, and put heavy armour on top of it you do not get a 4+ save, just a 6+ and a 5+ save. shields, steeds and scaly skin do stack.


Hm... And what exactly does a Herald with Obsidian Armour/Armour of Khorne, and a Juggernaut get then?


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## Gharof von Carstein

in which case ill move on to something else i wondered. when playing against daemons, how did you lose? were did you feel you went wrong? did you see any clear strategies to break up the army? iv never ever played daemons. i play vampire counts and im wondering what i can do to stop these devils. VC has the problem that we dont really have any missile weapons save magic. does this mean that when facing tzeentch im auto screwed? maybe having to summon so much that its a draw or minor loss due to table quarters etc??


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## Vaz

Tie them up.

Talisman of Lycni/Flying Vampire Lords with Tomb Blade and Skeleton Rising will give you a nice little boost to deal with them.

Dire Wolves - stop them shooting. 

Daemons are the worst army to play against, as they are pretty resistant against most the best tactics and units of other armies, against other armies, and threw a real spanner into the works.

Just repeating a tactic that worked against Chaos Warriors (unless they happened to be Khornate Warriors and you're facing Bloodcrushers/Letters) won't win you a game. Usually, the pimp fast movement can catch you out - it's counted for enough Warhounds and Marauder Horsemen in their time, due to baiting them within 6", only to flee 3-4", and be charged by a Bloodletter unit.

March Block - raise zombies behind them. Sure. They'll be dead meat (again), but in return you've gained a turn or two of respite.

I've seen an intense game in which a Vampire Lord was casting several Raise Dead (along with the inevitable Sceptre) to block the march of the unit, and line up a unit in front, as well, forcing them to charge the zombies, and then charge the zombies in the rear. They don't flee, obviously, so it's good against the Daemons. That's probably about 2 turns of holding them up if done right.

Having seen their effectiveness, I'd vote for the Vampire, with competent generalship, which I'm sure you have, to easily beat the Daemons, as long as luck holds.


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## Dafistofmork

Vaz said:


> Hm... And what exactly does a Herald with Obsidian Armour/Armour of Khorne, and a Juggernaut get then?


1+ AS, enemy modles lose magic weapons and 3+ AS. but that can not happen as the magic item combo costs 65pts-heralds only have 50pts to spend, so that second 3+ save cannot happen. the first bit can(the magic weapon bit), but you have just invested 200pts in a hero.

Edit-just realised a jugger adds +3, not +2, so it is a 0+ save, but expensive-my mistake( although you wont see more than one except in very large battles-just cannonball it-its an expensive cavaly model).


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## HorusReborn

the lack of psychology, the constant summoning of skeletons behind my army, the fiercly powerful vamp... those were all banes of my existance. Especially the summoning. The fact that i played a Slaanesh and Khorne army against him, and that I had 1 level 1 wizard from my Hearald of Slaanesh, there was little I could do. When it comes to Tzeench heavy armies, magic probably wont help. There was a war of attrition when I fought the VC, and I lost all impetous in battle eeking out a minor victory due to table corners. When you select your terrain, do it to your advantage and the disadvantage to the daemons, that really helped the VC player out!


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## DarknessDawns

vamps are the best army to verse daemons i think, i play DOC with my vamps alot, and i have only lost a few times, it seems when i do beat them, i beat them to a paste, as said, vamps just seem to fair well agianst them. might be just me.


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## newsun

Dafistofmork said:


> Edit-just realised a jugger adds +3, not +2, so it is a 0+ save, but expensive-my mistake( although you wont see more than one except in very large battles-just cannonball it-its an expensive cavaly model).



Like I said 0+ and they should have their juggernaught heralds in a unit then they also get a look out sir against canon balls assuming you even hit them in the crowd.


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## Dafistofmork

newsun said:


> Like I said 0+ and they should have their juggernaught heralds in a unit then they also get a look out sir against canon balls assuming you even hit them in the crowd.


only if the unit is 5 strong though-most units dont make it past 4(full comand+ herald) due to the cost and the fact that they take up a rare slot (which could be better used by flamers IMO).
Unless you find a way to stick one in a bloodletter unit.


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## MaidenManiac

Dafistofmork said:


> Unless you find a way to stick one in a bloodletter unit...


You do realize that that is the way that folks play right? 
With 7th its now ok for characters with bigger bases to hide in RnF units. And with the latest FAQ they now work like intended for ranks too. A Herald on Jugger counts as 4 models in the unit and cant be cannon-sniped untill there is less then 5 Bloodletters left:wink:


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## Vaz

Dafistofmork said:


> 1+ AS, enemy modles lose magic weapons and 3+ AS. but that can not happen as the magic item combo costs 65pts-heralds only have 50pts to spend, so that second 3+ save cannot happen. the first bit can(the magic weapon bit), but you have just invested 200pts in a hero.
> 
> Edit-just realised a jugger adds +3, not +2, so it is a 0+ save, but expensive-my mistake( although you wont see more than one except in very large battles-just cannonball it-its an expensive cavaly model).


Having seen 3 in a 2000pt Battle, I can say that they're very expensive for a reason. But for what they do, very cheap. They rank up with the other Super heavy cavalry (Knights of Chaos, Blood Knights, and Ogre Rhinox Cavalry).


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## HorusReborn

I have always used 5 Juggernauts. I don't think it's the point cost that stops people, but the actual cost of the models. 5 is over 100 bucks, I'm workin on a unit of 10. I'd rather take them than Flamers any day to be honest!


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## Dafistofmork

Well im sorry for not being up to date with cavely rules-I play dwarfs.


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## newsun

HorusReborn said:


> I have always used 5 Juggernauts. I don't think it's the point cost that stops people, but the actual cost of the models. 5 is over 100 bucks, I'm workin on a unit of 10. I'd rather take them than Flamers any day to be honest!


yeah I play tzeentch and while the flamers are nice, they are not that great and you pay for a bunch of them and have at max 2 units. I think like in 40k that the juggs are a little better.


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## Pertoleum

anyone have tips for vc?


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## jigplums

VC's combat res. Raise. Your casualties come back theirs dont. leave the vargulf at home[he doesn't like flicker fire of tzeentch or flamers] Ghouls are your best troops by far for daemons as you take less cas[due to T4] and do more damage


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## xaiff101

You can give a model more than one armour, and it stacks... For example, if I have a Bloodthirster with heavy armour, and I give him Obsidian Armour, he'd have a 0+ if I continued to give him Armour of Khorne, then it'd increase to a -3+. These are Daemonic Gifts, not Magic Items. 

On another note; I noticed a lot of people are bitching about Flamers. Charge them. "But they have 2 Str 5 attacks," you might whine. Yeah... but they're WS 2... "But they'll stand and shoot," is another thing people are worried about. Yeah... Once... It's better then them hitting you every turn with and average of 21 str 4 shots with a full unit of 6, a lot of times at -2. Even at BS 4 they're hitting on 5's.
If I wanted to be a real ass I could cast Portent of Far on them so they're re-rolling missed hits and wounds.

A _lot_ of people say that DoC are cheese, and not to bother playing them. They're wrong. I mean, yeah. Daemons have their strengths. But everyone has a weakness. It may not be obvious, but try not to hurt your brain looking for it.
Khorne's isn't obvious, but its there... Shh, don't tell anyone.  But it's fast stuff, and lots of shooting. Get the charge on them and you strike first, kill the front rank, and they get the champ and maybe a char. Bolt throwers make me cry. Use them. 

Tzeentch, this has mostly been covered, but shooting also hurts. Which is why I always run Kairos with Howler Winds. Cast it. It remains in play while I cast with the other head. So it adds some much needed protection from shooting. I usually run him with other flyers, or keep him near units of Flamers. Portent of Far helps the Flamers do a lot more damage. So I vote Kairos > Flamers on this list of "Oh crap, oh crap, kill it!" If you can, get him into close combat. He's got 1's across the board for stuff like that. 

Slaanesh armies have weaknesses against stronger, tougher armies. Don't be too worried about 'Nettes unless you want to keep your gobbos alive. KOS isn't all that tough, like most greater daemons. 

Nurgle is easy. Watch out for the magic, there isn't a lot, but it can get pretty nasty. Kill Epidemius at all costs. Unless you play Nurgle Daemons, then go ahead end let him beef you up. Once he get's going a Nurgle army can turn into a steamroller. Knock out heralds if you can. Getting rid of regen. is pretty nice. Flank them but don't be surprised if his heralds have slime trail (No flank/rear bonus to combat res) 
Fighting a GUO is like punching a concrete wall. A wall that can take on a ton of units, and mess them up in the process if geared correctly. Anyone with an IQ in the triple digits take him with the Balesword and as a level 3/4 wizard with Miasma of Pestilence (enemy models in base contact are 1's across the board until next friendly magic phase). And just hope that he doesn't roll Plague Wind. But Epidemius > GUO, the giant booger is almost always going to be second on your list.

Just remember, the Special "Heralds" do not have locus'. So Skulltaker does not give Bloodletters hatred. And so on.

Any questions just ask. Sorry if I came off mad. Just got out of the ER.


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## Gharof von Carstein

im going to go to a small tournament at the end of march (30 people) the problem here is that iv just spotted the list of registrants, 6 daemon players. the chance im gonna face one is pretty big. especially if i win my first match. now im really doubting what army to take. i dont have daemons to test against so i wouldnt know what to do.

what would you suggest a VC player should take in the highly likely event of there being daemons?

double corpse cart with no upgrades and a lot of ghouls
or a little less ghouls and double varghulf?

both armies have the standard 7 black knights to do some nice damage along with 3 big blocks of ghouls and vamps geared for casting. i know ill probably still lose against anyone maxing out on the tzeentch but still id like to get a edge somewhat.


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## Critta

As someone said earlier, the Varghulfs are going to be hitting issues with the number of different daemonic troops that can kick out flaming attacks.

Personally I'd go with the Carts n' ghouls option.


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## Gharof von Carstein

the carts have the same problem. the varghulfs could beat the flamers by getting withing 8 inches of them and than charging. no stand and shoot than because the varghulf is within half his charge range.


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## newsun

Flamers can still handle a vargulf in CC due to flaming attacks and high S, multi wounds. I have done it before.


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## squeek

xaiff101 said:


> You can give a model more than one armour, and it stacks... For example, if I have a Bloodthirster with heavy armour, and I give him Obsidian Armour, he'd have a 0+ if I continued to give him Armour of Khorne, then it'd increase to a -3+. These are Daemonic Gifts, not Magic Items.


Actually that is incorrect, page 3 and 4 of the DoC FAQ uses this exact example and states that armour saves do not stack since it is a Daemonic Gift, not an actual piece of armour.


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## xaiff101

squeek said:


> Actually that is incorrect, page 3 and 4 of the DoC FAQ uses this exact example and states that armour saves do not stack since it is a Daemonic Gift, not an actual piece of armour.


I was playing a game tonight and that came up. I was embarrassed TBH. I read the first part but not the second. I also though that for some reason that heavy armour gave you +3 to your save. 

The thing that doesn't make sense to me is that it says that they do stack... Then that they don't because "Nowhere in Warhammer does this happen" ...? I've seen people do it quite often. So unless they're breaking the rules or I choose the only armies that can't.

Also, why can I get a Herald of Khorne to a 0+ save, but I can't get a Bloodthirster anywhere near that? Max that I can get him to is a 3+. It doesn't make sense to me why a puny Bloodletter would be harder to take down than a Bloodthirster.

Then there's Scaly Skin saves. Unless it says "Adds to the users armour save" like a mount, then it wouldn't be able to stack with another armour save. Like a shield/ hand weapon shield. But maybe it does say that it "adds" to the save.

I was under the impression that these where "Daemonic gifts," and not magical items, making so that you can have more than one "Armour" But I guess I was wrong.

My bad D:


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## xaiff101

Gharof von Carstein said:


> im going to go to a small tournament at the end of march (30 people) the problem here is that iv just spotted the list of registrants, 6 daemon players. the chance im gonna face one is pretty big. especially if i win my first match. now im really doubting what army to take. i dont have daemons to test against so i wouldnt know what to do.
> 
> what would you suggest a VC player should take in the highly likely event of there being daemons?
> 
> double corpse cart with no upgrades and a lot of ghouls
> or a little less ghouls and double varghulf?
> 
> both armies have the standard 7 black knights to do some nice damage along with 3 big blocks of ghouls and vamps geared for casting. i know ill probably still lose against anyone maxing out on the tzeentch but still id like to get a edge somewhat.


One thing that I was worried about when playing Lizardman earlier is that he was taking his units 20+ strong. Daemons are not cheap point wise, so if I want to take 20 strong units of core like him (assuming that I take heralds and a greater daemon), I will have close to nothing in the ways of special/rare choices. 

The reason that I was unsettled was his rank and outnumbering bonuses. I was running a units of 14 (3x5) with the Skulltaker, the only reason that my unit didn't phase out from losing combat was because Skulltaker gave his unit champion the good news...3 times in a challenge. So I won by 1, and then he started tearing through the unit. 

But this isn't a battle report >.> it's a _Tactica_. So back onto the topic. 

Killing "Special Heralds". We talked about Epidemius. Now for the Blue Scribes. They are Highly mobile, but squishy and random. I wouldn't worry too much about him unless you run a magic army. 

The Masque, T3 but has a 3+ ward. So it might take a few shots to kill her. Luckily she only has 2 wounds like all of her other herald friends. She also can't go with a unit. When you kill her you might not think that you dealt a huge blow to the enemy, and me might not look too put off by it... But believe me I want to reach over the table everytime she dies (not that I would, I just play it off). Because not only does she take up a hero slot, but she coust _almost_ 100 points (hope that's ok to say Squeek ). Which could have been spent on 3 screamers or 9 furies.

Skulltaker, aaah Skulltaker. Don't bother throwing a unit champion against him (unless you have no other choice, or your hero in the unit sucks too much to fight him). Try and get a good fighter, preferably one that strikes first, to fight him. Again he only has 2 wounds. But don't be too full of your guy that's US 3 or better. Skulltaker doesn't care much for that and will KB him on a 5+ all the same.

Hope I helped with the VC VS Daemons.

I'll post more tomorrow on other units, any requests and I'll work them in.


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## zabo

How would you go about defeating a plague bunker?


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## Franko1111

the thing I would have to say as a player of daemon is flanks

the most annoying thing is when instablablity tests go wrong and no save of couse shootings a bitch for a daemon player (pardon the langue and spelling)k:


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## Vorag of Strigos

Most challenging Opponents I have ever fought were Chaos Daemons with one of the most powerful creatures ever, The great Unclean one, My blood knights were swept down in 2 rounds of combat and flanking it either side was a Lord of Change and a Bloodthirster of Khorne, not the best combo I've ever come up against in the end I was attempting to raise another Multi-Zombie army to replace my losses


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## Dafistofmork

ouch! i feel your pain, i realy do.


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## crushinbeats

I was reading the beast book, and I saw that if you have a deamon general you can take beast units as special spots. 

Does anyone know if running a beast screen infront( to catch the bullets) of your deamons is a valid tactic? I havn't seen anyone comment on that. 

Everyone says that shooting is how you deal with most deamons, wouldn't a screen of Gors and Ungors be the cheap response for most deamon players?. 

Also quick rules question, when a demon on a jugg is in a unit of bloodletters, does the large base of the jugg benifit the next rank? so in effect, you could take only 12 bloodletters and get 5 wide with 2 ranks?


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## Navydave

Hi folks,
New to this forum and first posting. I play Britonians and just participated in my first Ard Boy tourney. I havn't played WH in over 10 yrs so getting back into it. I realize I need to study up here. But I just got my butt handed to me by a Chaos Demon. took out my King 2nd turn. Learned alot like I need to paint up more grail knights to get to a full unit of 12. I only had 6 and since the lance formation got changed... I couls use some tips on taking out a Demon with my knights. I was thinking I should have fielded men at arms to engage and use the Knights to flank. But the Demon was flying around and got to me quicker than I could get my knights. I did have a unit of Pegusus knights in play but it was my first time using them. So my generalship is lacking due to not playing in a long time and units I've never used before.
Need to get used to the abreviations in here too are there any threads where britonian players hang out on here to talk?
I noticed the date of the last posting too..am I too late here?


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

You're never too late if you bring something to the table. If you don't get much here, just open another thread in the Tactics forum for more specific help 

Enjoy your stay here at Heresy!


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