# Points - The thin line between fair and assholes...



## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

Had an interesting experience today at a semi-familiar gaming club.

My local gamers and I are competetive. Not tourny competetive but we play to win. Occasionally there are rules disputes but cool heads prevail and we always come to understanding because at the end of the day it is still a game for fun. Now to get to the main topic at hand...

Points. People that are making competetive armies work very hard to fit their choices at or up to the points limit max. My friends and I always, ALWAYS stay within points limits. We believe it's just fair that way. No disputes. If you're equal or under, you're good. If you go over... back to the drawing board. Period. While this may sound rough to some it just works for us and works very well. Funny thing is we're pretty lax about other things like proxies (within reason). For example, I don't have enough of the melta I field, so some of my melta vets are wielding lasguns. 

Today we went to a semi-familiar place. Meaning it's not our usual place but we've been there a couple of times and know one of the guys there. That same guy being the one who invited us. So we get there, get past the intros, start setting up, and begin reviewing our opponents lists...

One of the my buds politely says to one of the strangers "hey you're X points over the limit. Why don't you take some time and make some changes to fit the points limit?" 

*****This is where the music comes to a strategic halt.

Stranger (we'll call him A): huh-huh. That's funny.
My buddy (we'll call him B): yeah. No biggie. Take your time.
A: I'm only x points above the limit!
B: Exactly. I'm not. In fact I'm x points below the limit.
A: All my minis are set to this limit and are wysiwyg.
B: No prob. We don't really play wysiwyg to a point of course.
A: This is stupid. Are you going to play or not?
B: That depends, are you going to drop your points?
A: No, because it's not that big of a difference.
B: If it's not that big of a difference than just drop your points.
A: I can't.

Here's where the magic comes in...

B: Why not?
A: Because it'll ruin my army.

Bam!!! This is where I step in and say "those few points make a difference when you can't fit that one vehicle don't they?"

At this point they had no comeback. 5 minutes of petty arguing ensued (not rude, and certainly not violent). We ended up leaving, because the environmet was no longer "fun".

End story.


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## search116 (Aug 9, 2010)

Imperious said:


> Had an interesting experience today at a semi-familiar gaming club.
> 
> My local gamers and I are competetive. Not tourny competetive but we play to win. Occasionally there are rules disputes but cool heads prevail and we always come to understanding because at the end of the day it is still a game for fun. Now to get to the main topic at hand...
> 
> ...


lol I would've laughed at the stranger for being so childish


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

so what points were they playing and how many was the guy over? and couldnt your buddy up his points for the game ?


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I only really play socially. I do not cross the points total allowed for any reason. So far none of my opponents have either. It is simple courtesy to your opponent. It is called a points limit for a reason.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

People say that being a few points over in a casual game is fine. It isn't.

Doesn't matter is your 1 point, or 300 points over the top; something has to go; and it comes from this logic:

Your army is at 1491 points, you want another melta-gun on your plague marine squad (For example), taking you to 1501; you call bullshit that you can't have it, because after all; It's just an extra meltagun.
My army is at 1499 points, and I want to take another baneblade, taking me to 1999, but it's just one extra thing, so it's fine.

End retarded situation. 

Believe it or not; You have to follow the rules to make a game fun; casual just means laid back. Casual DOES NOT mean 'no rules'.


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

shaantitus said:


> I only really play socially. I do not cross the points total allowed for any reason. So far none of my opponents have either. It is simple courtesy to your opponent. It is called a points limit for a reason.


Absolutely. Building lists that go above the agreed points limit is just sloppy list-building, pure and simple. I am the least competitive/tournament-y player you will _ever_ encounter, but even I never go above the points limit.


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## Unforgiven302 (Oct 20, 2008)

I take it the guy was well over "X" points limit. I have played against people that have been just a few points over, mainly it stems from a weapon or a transport, but nothing that is going to lop side the game. I have no problem with that, but as long as the points over do not make up an entire extra unit or vehicle we are good, but if your list is over by 35 points you better drop that extra rhino before we go at it. 
I have also run into people that have been hundreds of points over, and I ended up not getting a game in because, lets face it, I was going to get crushed and that isn't worth my time. If I get crushed fairly, that is a different (albeit quite frequent) story.

If the guy was 1-10 point over, play the game.
If he was 30+ over I would have asked him to change something up but possibly still play if he made any fuss over it.
Anything over 40+ points and I would decline the game.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Unforgiven302 said:


> If the guy was 1-10 point over, play the game.


 Mmmm, If that's the situation, I just go through his list and give him a list of options to drop. If they refuse I'll decline the game.

Especially as before I've played a Tyranid player who was 8 points over the limit, and refused to drop 1 _*AG Hormagaunt*_ from his total of about 65 of them. 
It's just unnecessary.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

I admit a point limit should be just that, but with the nature of the codex's,models and limitless points combination's a small amount of flexibility (particularly when your in a strange club) wouldn't be a bad thing if you get a game, afterall the stranger in question was willing to play against proxies when he had bothered to field WYSIWYG...


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

Meh, this is why I generally only play against people I know. If its against someone I've never played against I *make sure* I'm a few points under, because I don't want to get caught out in this same situation... People like that are childish. Me and my mates usually agree a points limit, then a overflow point limit, for instance, if we say 1500pts, we then say, but you can go X over, usually it's about 5 or 10...


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

ROT said:


> Mmmm, If that's the situation, I just go through his list and give him a list of options to drop. If they refuse I'll decline the game.


I don't see why; if your list isn't just pure crap it shouldn't matter if it is 1-10 points over. 

For me it is thus:
1-5 I think nothing of it.

5-10 Eh, not really going to change anything.

10-15 Ok, this is a bit much. I might still play though.

15+ Horse shit.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

my rules for fun games are simple: we set a number, say 1500, then say we have to be within 5 points of eachother or below 1500. so if im 1495, my opponent can only be 1500, if im at 1499, my opponent being at 1504 is ok. I think this works the best since its 5 point difference in the list or your choosing to be less then the point limit for said game


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

I agree with the other guy to be honest. Over-points, even by a little, means an extra upgrade, or an extra Guardsman, and when you yourself try so hard to stay within the point limit.......................


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

OK, I can already see this turning into another "40K needs to be rewritten, BADLY!!!!" situation. No matter what people's individual opinions are on the matter - and at the risk of sounding like a back-seat moderator - let's try to keep it nice and friendly and just accept that we all have our own lines we don't like to cross on this one. In the end, any game involving two people has to work according to the consensus of those two people and _those two people alone_. I wouldn't accept someone going over the limit, but that doesn't mean nobody else is allowed to if that's what they themselves are are happy with.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Ofcourse Svart, this is just what I personally do. I spend alot of time making my lists in the limit; not prepared for someone to not have to take that time aswell, otherwise it's unfair.

But if you're cool to let someone over by X points, I'm not saying you're wrong.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

svartmetall I think alot of us are just expressing our opinions on the point system, more then getting overly zealous about anything, atleast not yet.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

If I find out my opponent is over the point limit, I will simply add an upgrade to a unit in order to make my points equal to his.


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

Since I've been flooded with PM's about the points. I'll just say it was very small. 

The point is that once we (meaning my group) agree on a limit we never, ever go past it. There have been times when my ideal army was good to go then I grab my calculator and go "Fuck!" missed it by 5 points. Oh well back to the drawing board. 

This isn't about dividing the Heresy community. This is more about honoring the pre-agreed limits set by the actual people involved well ahead of time. That's all. 

I think it's fine that some people will let a few points over slide. 

I guess I'm saying there has to be a point where every one agrees on something.

The one thing Ive learned in my time playing is that if you're equal to or under the limit, there's _never_ an issue when it comes to lists...


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

I play for fun, so for me, being 10-20 points over is NOT a big deal at all to me. The way I see it, that time when your rolling to wound, and they all come up 6's, was worth more than the 20 points he had over  

Though I have unfortunatly seen occasions where people were over points, they win, only for the loser to say, thats because you were X points over. 

But I think that is much more to do with the maturity level of the gamer in question than the points themselves.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I remember a long time ago (when everyones favourite CSM cdex was released) a WD battle between Iron warriors and Black legion.

The BL player have 1480ish points in his army.
The IW player had exactly 1562 points in his army.

That's nearly 100 points more.

I often try to fit under the point limit as to over, but that's my sense of fair play. If an opponent turns up with a 1509 army against my 1487 army, that's ok with me. But anything more than 10 points over the limit is a little high.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

For a friendly game, 1-5 points over is fine with me.


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## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

My rule of thumb for friendly games: if they are x points over, its fine if "x<the cheapest upgrade/unit in their codex"

For example, the cheapest upgrade in the CSM codex is Meltabombs (among other things) at 5pts. So i will accept CSM lists up to 4 pts over limit.

For competative games or games against strangers though, i strictly enforce point limits.


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

For me the way my opponent deals with the points for the list sets the tone for the entire game. Personally I'm fine either way, but if my opponent requires a strict enforcement of the points for the game, I don't feel bad requiring strict WYSIWYG.

In other words, I'm good as long as the game is internally consistent. If you want to play lax, we'll play lax. You want to play strict, we play strict. Either way is good with me, but not a combination or hodgepodge of both.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Usually, this happens if I'm making a list in the fly, in-store. When I find I've gone over, I ask the other person if they mind; if they do, then I'll attempt to sort it out- if they don't, then I assume they'll take advantage and work to whatever points I've got on the board.
I certainly understand other people work to different standards and are happy to police them as they will. In such a situation, I would have just added whatever x points was to my list (if it could fit, of course). Sometimes going with the flow is the way to go; if it had been me (and I'm not preaching AT ALL, although doubtless I'm going to sound like it!), then I'd have just played and damn his list! After all, we only get the fun from the game if we actually play it...

GFP


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

That guy's an asshole.
Going over the limit is only acceptable to me if you just throw a list together quickly, if you've had time to plan then there is absolutely no excuse.

On another note, this is why I like having a large unit of Termagants.
If I go a few points over, drop one.
If I'm a few points short, chuck one in


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## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

we had things like that all the time. I don't mind being 1 0r maybe 2 pts over so having 1002pts etc but if you are 4 or more there isn't any excuss. You have to make exceptions here and there. My Edlar force needs sertain things to "work" but if i don't have the points then i will re-work it with only a few modals beings "they must be like this" such as my Wraithguard (as troops that is) and my War Walkers but only if i need them for there normal job.


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## Daddysen (May 31, 2010)

Personaly I think planing out your army to certain limits is an awesome challenge and i find it fun. 

me and my friends will keep it equal to or under said point limit but as far as the stranger well since it was a chance meeting and there was not an advance notice i would have just added something effective to make mine equal to his and if it put me over his point total a few points well i don't think he would be in any position to tell you to change it. would he? 

and when you add something dont just add melta bombs or something like that if you dont need it add something you will use becasue he sure isn't gonna be over the limit for something he will not use.


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

For reference, all parties involved had a week to prepare.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Having played narrative/campaign battles where the two sides were unbalanced by luck or scenarios, I am not hung up on points as anything more than a way for two people who have never played before (or maybe never played a particular army before) to have a game that will not be grossly unbalanced. So I treat it this way:

If there is a points limit then anyone who goes over has no right to complain if people do not let them play.

If there is a house rule that going over a little is fine then anyone who was aware of that has no right to complain that their opponent is over.

If it is a tournament, the organiser's choice applies.

If it is a club or social event the host's choice applies.

So, if I am going somewhere new I make sure my list is not over and do not object to playing someone who is slightly over.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Dave T Hobbit said:


> Having played narrative/campaign battles where the two sides were unbalanced by luck or scenarios, I am not hung up on points as anything more than a way for two people who have never played before (or maybe never played a particular army before) to have a game that will not be grossly unbalanced. So I treat it this way:
> 
> If there is a points limit then anyone who goes over has no right to complain if people do not let them play.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more with you here....After the fun game i had today where i did the math after fact and the guy had 3000pts i had 2k.......Safe to say that didn't go well for me (good thing he wasn't a good player....i managed to get a draw by sending a kamikaze Dreadnought into his plague marines)


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## bishop5 (Jan 28, 2008)

I let my mate go about ten points over his limit, he then forgot to deploy a 200+ point unit. 
Blammo!


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## DonFer (Apr 23, 2010)

I'm all for points limit, but truly if the guy is just over a few points, say less than 0.4% (that's about 5 points for a 1500 pts game) I'd play. Specially when the guy is letting you play with proxies. It's not always a matter of being a "rules lawyer". One has to be felxible, and remember that this is only a game.


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Choosing to make such an issue over a "very small" amount of points over seems a little unreasonable to me when your friend was in a different group and was expecting them to accept his proxies.

If both groups had a week to prepare then mentioning that you always proxy but never go over points could have saved the drama. Particularly since they are probably saying to one another, "these guys turned up and wanted to proxy then got all weird about being a few points over, fair or assholes?"

Anywho, it's all swings and roundabouts to me. Personally I am happy to allow a handful of points over, allow proxies if I know what they are meant to be and don't get too het up about the little things if my opponent is reasonable. But then I would expect the same in return if for whatever reason I fancied proxying or was struggling to shed 2 or 3 points for a pick up game. Whereas for competitive games I stick to *all* the rules and expect the same from my opponent.


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## VeronaKid (Jan 7, 2010)

I think that a lot of this goes back to one of the most important points that got made back on page 1 of this thread, though, and that is that what goes when you're playing your mates, or your club members, might not go when you're playing against unfamiliar people, so why not just make sure you're within the rules in that case. If I was playing against a good friend, who I played against every weekend or whatever, and he wanted to play a list that was a little over, then fine- that's not an issue. My point would be that, when I go to a new environment, I think it is only polite to make sure my list is 100% legal, my mini's are 100% WYSIWYG, and that nothing beardy is in the works. Common courtesy goes a long way towards ensuring a good time is had by all.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I remember a time when 2pts difference came down to whether a game was drawn or lost.

A guy I was playing had a normal guard army compared to my Elysians. He had kitted out his models, but he had built his list to WYSIWYG, and came out as 2001pts. If he hadn't have said anything, I'd have let it slide, but he said that one of his PCS Officers had a Laspistol, rather than the Bolt Pistol he was carrying (so it was 1999pts), so fair enough, I said fair enough, at the time believing that a single shot wouldn't make the difference.

Playing objectives, I had a T4/5+AS squad at the absolute minimum scoring limit on the objective.

He had fired his almost entire army at the squad to reduce it to that size, and by turn 5, it was so important, that instead of having the 3 PCS Meltagunners target the Vulture that was 3 inches away, he turned around and blatted away at that squad. Due to the glories of unintentional placement, only the officer was in range with his laspistol (the only time it was fired all game). He rolled, hit, wounded (only just on a 4), and the armour save was rolled - a 5. 

I ended up winning the game.

Although it was a friendly, and the PCS was blown away by the 20 Rerollable S5 AP5 Shots of the Vulture the following turn, which would surely have gone on to claim the objective, and at least draw, or perhaps even win had his HWT's not been forced to bring down the Skimmer the next turn.

He went a funny purple colour when I said I didn't have an issue with the points value, but thanks for being so sporting.

Yeah, friendlies, if it's a single piece of wargear, yeah, I could say take it off, count it as basic, but I'm not that fussed. If it came down to a single dice roll, about whether I failed or passed it (or even if I should have been allowed one), then I can say that it was a good game.

In a tournament situation though, fuck that, you're over, you're over. You've too choices, either WYSIWYG just "counts as", or you no longer have a model (over statement, but the point of the matter is, everything above a certain points level is optional - if it doesn't fit in, there's no begging otherwise. Tough shit if that final Rhino is 1pt over, take it out, and find another 90pts somewhere else).


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Honestly in a friendly game as long as the opponent asks me I will often let 1-5pts get by, anything beyond that enters beardy territory. Seriously if you have a problem with a diff of 5 points its not really casual (Provided they ask permission) after all the points totals for wargear, and units are not god sents they are rough estimates of how expensive something is for its effectiveness, and capitalizing on this fact is what is at the heart of making competitive builds.

In other words I would be a little more pensive if someone wanted a extra 5 pts for a power build (Dual lash), since they are already trying to optimize their army to a unfair advantage, however if I am playing against my friends tau list and he asks if its ok to take a extra gun drone if it takes him 3pts over then I won't even bat a eye lash at the though.


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

Also, for the record, minor wysiwyg substitutes (such as the same model with a different gun) were ok'ed a week in advance. If someone has a problem with a melta-vet wielding a lasgun, I respectfully accept their decision with no hard feelings. The point is I won't agree to one thing and then show up the next time with something different. My group and I never play 100% wysiwyg (I don't even know one person who does) but wysiwyg is a whole different thread...


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## SonofVulkan (Apr 14, 2010)

There is no excuse for going over a points limit. Especially if the person in question has had a week to prepare. If you turn up for a game 1 point over the limit then you need to sit down and re-write your list. Blaming a squad sergeants side-arm for the extra point is also no excuse. Why single out one model to blame for your bad army selection? if you are over the points limit agreed then your whole army is illegal!

Lets say you turned up to an organised tournament hoping to do well, with an army a few points over the limit. You would be deducted so many points for your illegal army selection, even if you win all your games, you would never win the tournament.

If you or an opponent are limited for your army selection, for example you only have what is in your case, then change the points limit to match what you can both field.

I feel very strongly about this as I have turned up to my local GW with an army list a few times and lost against someone who has quickly scribbled down an army list on a scrap bit of paper which I have later worked out to be well over the agreed limit.

Rant over.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Lol, you guys have issues with a few points over the limit! And I enjoy games were I have ca. 300+ points less than the other player, as I love to play carefully and not throw a single unit recklessly at the foe. Everything is carefully planed, and not a single model dies in vain. I find myself playing far better with less units, as it makes you focus on them more carefully, and you wont just throw them away... 

But if the points value was agreed in advance, and the other player had time to plan, I would not accept anything. I always end up at the exact point value, through one way or another, and if he cant do it, then he is an player I dont want to play against. Drop that fucking melta bomb and get on with it...


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## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

I definitely write my lists to not go over. I totally understand the point of not allowing the argument of its just 1 point over. 
However, if I had spent my time getting to where ever this place is and got my list ready to play a game, my time is more valuable than 3 points over. In the case of game fairness its totally wrong, but to me it comes down to you just wasted all your time getting there for nothing. He was a jerk too for not changing his army, but sometimes its better to just cut your losses and suck it up.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

I couldn't care less as long as I have fun


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## gatha23 (Jul 9, 2009)

im not botherd by points. if someone is over i quess it comes down to how easy is it for them to lower the points to the limit and still be close to it. -N-


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Daneel2.0 said:


> For me the way my opponent deals with the points for the list sets the tone for the entire game. Personally I'm fine either way, but if my opponent requires a strict enforcement of the points for the game, I don't feel bad requiring strict WYSIWYG.
> 
> In other words, I'm good as long as the game is internally consistent. If you want to play lax, we'll play lax. You want to play strict, we play strict. Either way is good with me, but not a combination or hodgepodge of both.


this is why I see both parties as being in the wrong, one for going over points in a game that was between parties that are more aquaintences than friends, and the other for not having wysiwyg in the same environment, especially with lasguns proxying for meltas.


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## DarKKKKK (Feb 22, 2008)

Within my group of friends we are easy going with the points over which I think should really be enforced more now seeing this topic. Personally the most I have ever gone over was 3 I think, but its usually just 1 pt. Which never is by a large unit, normally an upgrade to try and find something to fill up the rest of my points. So before the game starts I will ask my friends if it is ok to be X over with X upgrade and its usually cool. Although I never check, so I should probably pay more attention.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

When considering the pardonning of excess points in an army list I believe there a few things, they are as follows:

1) are they a new player (how long have they been playing, how well do you know them, are they a local gamer)

2a) how many points are they over

2b) what is the cheapest item they can remove to be under the agreed point limits

3) is this a muck around, fun, friendly or competitive match

If you know the player well, he/she is a seasoned/experienced gamer (regardless if this is the first time he/she's played said army or not) and you are playing all bar a muck around match... stick to the agreed point limits as you as a gamer should know better and aren't doing yourself any favours playing above limits.

When I play with younger brother (he plays orks)I always tell him to stay under the limit as like may horde army players you have no excuse to be over especially if you play Orks or Nids that 4 points over is easily chnaged to 2 pts under when 1 boy is removed.


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## Hialmar (Feb 19, 2008)

Around here we try and never play over the points limit and would not even have to ask to have something getting dropped from a list that is over as it is just matter of course.

That having been said, if someone wanted to try something out and it was just a quick add-in to a list in a thrown together game for fun, then I don't think anyone around here would have an issue with it.

I would say that if someone was going to insist upon strict enforcement or get bent out of shape because their opponent, especially a stranger, was a point or two over the agreed limit in a fun game, then they certainly should not expect to point to some lasgun wielding models and claim that several of them are "actually" armed with melta-guns. This would be a case of "What is good for the Goose is good for the Gander" type metaphor.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

I'd agree with the folks who said they're both in the wrong. Sounds like they both wasted an afternoon. A little flexibility on either guy's part and everyone might have had a good time.

I think some flexibility is good, but I make darn sure my lists are never over the agreed point value. The point value for a game is only an approxiamte measure of how evenly matched two armies are (we all know that some of the points values are kinda wonky.) That approximation is what the match up is based on. It's based on the assumption that neither player is setting their models down on the table boiling over with advantages.

I definitely subscribe to a game style of general flexibility but with respect for the balance that makes the contest of armies exciting. If in a moderately competative game somebody is over more points than their cheapest upgrade, subtract the upgrade. I think there is a gentlemanly respect at work in making a good game happen. Agreeing on points is just one of those elements.

{ *rant_on*
On more than one occasion I've played a game and afterward added up the bare-bones elements of their army and reached a total far beyond the limit agreed upon. While that's an extreme example of what this thread is based on, it's an infuriating one.
*rant_off* }


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

Oh I can definitely agree on that point. I think pretty much everyone's had experience with an opponent that shows up to a 1500 point match with 2000 points worth of army and either gets caught before the game starts, or you realize it after you're counting up KP at the end. That's *FAR* from ok, that's just plain cheating.

The situation I was talking about was more a case of 5 or even 10 points. I don't see the point limit as something set in stone, but an agreed upon point value, just like the terrain is agreed upon, the scenario is agreed upon, etc. And if I show up with 1490 and they have 1510, well I can always use an extra Warrior somewhere :biggrin:


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## Oldenhaller (Nov 28, 2008)

I'm of the opinion that if you're working to a points limit then this will influence your choices for your army. If I know I can fudge the points a bit to get what I want then I won't consider how this affects the rest of my list. If i think I'll buy a raider and then I can still take a full tac quad to get the free missile launcher and flamer but be 2 points over that makes a fair difference in list construction to someone who doesn't and has to make allowances and have one over the other, then including other things in their build.

Points limits are there as they govern how your list will be built and thus how you play the game.

~O


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## CLT40k (Jun 18, 2010)

Here's the way I see it... If you show up with an army list that's over points then you're wrong... Especially if you're an experianced player. If you're army does not work unless you're at 1509 - then you have a problem and perhaps we should look at playing a higher points level or you should revisit your list...

That being said, there are situations where I just don't care... For example, I have multiple lists saved on my IPhone so that I can play 1000/1500/1750/1850/2000 and I normally have all the models needed to run whatever when I walk into my LGS. Also, I build all-comers lists... so I'm never in the situation above. However, at my games store, we have some younger kids who NEVER have a pre made list... so their lists are cobbled out of whatever they have on hand. At that point, if my opponent says, "Hey I'm 2 points over" - then I don't worry... cause I'd rather play now than wait a half an hour for them to sort it out. 

In the case above, if everybody had a week go get thier stuff together, then showing up on the day of the match with an illegal list ain't cool... I wouldn't have played them either...


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Think I'll clarify my stance on allowing an opponent to go over by a single-digit number of points.
Sometimes someone has a list they love, but decides that in a friendly/ practice game to use something that they normally don't just to see how it works on comparison to what they normally do.
Me, I do an exchange, but some people like a compare/ contrast type thing, and I don't mind at all.
I'm far more strict on WYSIYG, again unless it's someone wanting to try something else and they've stated so ahead of time. If so, the weapon needs to look different from the standard anyway. So calling plasma guns and granade launchers melters, for the sake of trying it out/ don't have the bit yet, is ok. The lasguns, I probably would balk at representing melters.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Nah, to me the points limit is sacred. I`ve seen too many David v Goliath situations to let it slide.

Yeah, it may sound hardass, but that`s just the way it is. If you`re gonna play, even if it`s just for fun, then it`s worth playing fair. :so_happy:


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Serpion5 said:


> I`ve seen too many David v Goliath situations to let it slide.


surely thats a good thing?, since in the fictional story david (the underdog) won.......and then became a bloodthirsty asshole but we skip that bit of the comparison, so underdog vs asshole whos 1000pts over his limit, where underdog wins sounds like a good thing.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> surely thats a good thing?, since in the fictional story david (the underdog) won.......and then became a bloodthirsty asshole but we skip that bit of the comparison, so underdog vs asshole whos 1000pts over his limit, where underdog wins sounds like a good thing.


Unbalanced games are fun. You could try a naoplean style game (He was the king of the divide and conquer tactic). Set up your 1500pts in the middle of the board, and your 2 mates get 1250 points each, but have to enter on the board short edges. Your 1000 points down but the forces are split. See if you can win.

I personally dont go over, its just simpler that way. I cant say I have ever checked very closely what points my opponents have taken. I just assume they are under. If there are over, I don't think I'd really care that much, as game is a game after all.


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> surely thats a good thing?, since in the fictional story david (the underdog) won.......and then became a bloodthirsty asshole but we skip that bit of the comparison, so underdog vs asshole whos 1000pts over his limit, where underdog wins sounds like a good thing.












All kidding aside it seems that your friend also could of been bitch slapped back when he said he wasn't wysiwyg while the other guy was. But you know...that one upgrade of extra armour on his vindicator is totally going to win him the game and is of cause to be anal-retentive(sp?) over it


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

I said it once, I'll say it again. This is about honoring agreements made in advance. Wysiwyg is a completely different story deserving it's own thread. It's also worth noting my friend was pretty much wysiwyg compliant. I was the one who wasn't and my opponent didn't have a problem with substitutions.


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## the Autarch (Aug 23, 2009)

Wysiwyg is a pretty crap rule in my opinion anyway, just there for extra money for GW

but anyway as for the points wouldn't you rather play a game then fight over a couple of points that would make it all the sweeter when you win?


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Imperious said:


> I said it once, I'll say it again. This is about honoring agreements made in advance. Wysiwyg is a completely different story deserving it's own thread. It's also worth noting my friend was pretty much wysiwyg compliant. I was the one who wasn't and my opponent didn't have a problem with substitutions.


Bull. If ine party can break a rule, so can the other. No double standards, period.


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

Vrykolas2k said:


> I'm far more strict on WYSIYG, again unless it's someone wanting to try something else and they've stated so ahead of time. If so, the weapon needs to look different from the standard anyway. So calling plasma guns and granade launchers melters, for the sake of trying it out/ don't have the bit yet, is ok. The lasguns, I probably would balk at representing melters.


One thing I do is whenever I'm having a game is print out the list I'm using (using the same layout I use when posting army lists here), and also putting the statlines for each unit/character at the bottom of the page. It's a bit anal, sure, but that way there's _no_ uncertainty as to what is what in your army (particularly important if you're up against someone you don't know); and having all the relevant statlines right there saves on all those time-consuming "What's his WS again?" moments shuffling through a Codex mid-game. 

As for points limits, they're the same for everyone; you don't go over for any reason. Part of the art of list-building itself is observing the points limit.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

the Autarch said:


> but anyway as for the points wouldn't you rather play a game then fight over a couple of points that would make it all the sweeter when you win?


judging by most posts, I'd assume probably not.

afterall, why have fun with the toys you spent £500 on when you can argue over someone spending 1pt more for a grenade that probably cost 10p, good use of time and money, and people say the price is worth it for the enjoyment, despite allot of people by the look of it probably never playing the game in there life because they argue all day.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

the Autarch said:


> Wysiwyg is a pretty crap rule in my opinion anyway, just there for extra money for GW


...No...
WYSIWYG exists for clarity, when you play a tournament it is completely reasonable to expect a fully completed army which represents each model's wargear accurately.


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## Kuolema (Nov 4, 2010)

Winterous said:


> ...No...
> WYSIWYG exists for clarity, when you play a tournament it is completely reasonable to expect a fully completed army which represents each model's wargear accurately.


^ This exactly.
GW is pretty easy on conversions compared to other companies, it's really not hard to make most armies WYSIWYG without spending that much money.

That said I'm never going to refuse someone a game just because they don't have all their models WYSIWYG as long as they make it clear what each model has before the game.


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## Psychosisi808 (Apr 29, 2010)

So you play to have fun then set up a game a week before, take the time to make a list and travel to the club then refuse to play said fun game all for the sake of a couple of points.

Shocking to be honest.

Think Stella cadente's post on page 6 sums it up nicely n is sig worthy.


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## CLT40k (Jun 18, 2010)

Psychosisi808 said:


> So you play to have fun then set up a game a week before, take the time to make a list and travel to the club then refuse to play said fun game all for the sake of a couple of points.
> 
> Shocking to be honest.
> 
> Think Stella cadente's post on page 6 sums it up nicely n is sig worthy.


I think you missed the point.... They set up the game a week before, and his opponent said, If I pull this then my army won't work... The guy was cheating and hoping that the OP was more interested in having a game than calling him on it. That's just BS.

To refresh:


> Stranger (we'll call him A): huh-huh. That's funny.
> My buddy (we'll call him B): yeah. No biggie. Take your time.
> A: I'm only x points above the limit!
> B: Exactly. I'm not. In fact I'm x points below the limit.
> ...


Recently, I've found I've had a lot of games where my opponent throws down the gauntlet a week ahead of time and we talk through what sort of list we're bringing... I expect them to be right... That being said, I also play with a pretty regular crowd and we don't pass around army lists (hell, my lists are downloaded from Army Builder to my phone)

I think what it really comes down to is if the guy is being a tool about his list, then I don't want to play him at all. There's always other folks to play and life is too short to have games that aren't fun.

If they're throwing a list together at the last minute with the models they have on hand, then it's a different situation and I'm more interested in the game than that points and I don't really care... 

But in the situation described above, they had a week to get thier stuff together and he tried to cheat and got pissy when called on it... That's really the issue for me... Making a calculator mistake is one thing, bringing a list you know is over the limit and then trying to bully your opponent is poor sportsmanship.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

CLT40k said:


> But in the situation described above, they had a week to get thier stuff together and he tried to cheat and got pissy when called on it... That's really the issue for me... Making a calculator mistake is one thing, bringing a list you know is over the limit and then trying to bully your opponent is poor sportsmanship.


It's poor EVERYTHING-ship, it's cheating.


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

Winterous said:


> It's poor EVERYTHING-ship, it's cheating.


Wow. People are actually starting to see my point. You wouldn't believe the amount of pm's I've received calling me petty...


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Imperious said:


> Wow. People are actually starting to see my point. You wouldn't believe the amount of pm's I've received calling me petty...


Yeah, that's pretty retarded.


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## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

WYSIWYG is not hard to do by any means and does not give GW more money... Invest in some magnets and use them on certain characters or specific units that you tend to change their war gear a lot. Pretty simple if you ask me I cant understand what is so hard about keeping it legit.

On the note about going over a point limit unless they are in the group of gents I hang with weekly its ether you stay under or we don't play. I don't care if you 5 or 1 point over there is a POINT LIMIT set for a reason.

Thats like a Hockey team saying I know you can only play with 5 and a goalie but we are going to use 6 and a goalie... its only 1 over. (never would happen but had to use something ridiculous.)


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

Actually I've learned a very priceless lesson from here on out...

From now on if there's going to be a game with "unknown quantities", I am going to emphasize the points limit. I'm going to say "ok. It's 1500 (or 2000 or whatever) right? Not 1515. Not 1510. Not 1505. Not even fucking 1502. Even 1500 right? Cool!"

Seriously. I've learned my lesson. I'm going to make sure that I say points are non-negotiable. As far as my local group? It's never, ever been an issue. It's not even an issue with us. We all know the pain in the ass it is when creating a list on paper and then adding up the totals and seeing those dreaded few points over. We believe there is a certain level of skill (or luck mind you) in making everthing fit perfectly.


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Imperious said:


> From now on if there's going to be a game with "unknown quantities", I am going to emphasize the points limit. I'm going to say "ok. It's 1500 (or 2000 or whatever) right? Not 1515. Not 1510. Not 1505. Not even fucking 1502. Even 1500 right? Cool!"


 Each to their own and good luck with your gaming but if you 'emphasised' this with me then proceeded to plonk down a bunch of lasgun wielding guys who you say have meltas, I'd be wondering why you think you have the right to pick and choose which rules you and your opponent follow unilaterally.

If points are that important to you then perhaps you should reconsider your stance on ignoring other rules at a whim.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

squeek said:


> Each to their own and good luck with your gaming but if you 'emphasised' this with me then proceeded to plonk down a bunch of lasgun wielding guys who you say have meltas, I'd be wondering why you think you have the right to pick and choose which rules you and your opponent follow unilaterally.
> 
> If points are that important to you then perhaps you should reconsider your stance on ignoring other rules at a whim.


WYSIWYG is a courtesy, not a rule :\
The point is, his opponent was actually cheating by refusing to reduce his list points, whereas representing models is not in the slightest bit cheating.
Also I think he was using Melta-equipped Guardsmen to represent Lasgun-equipped dudes, not the other way around.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Winterous said:


> WYSIWYG is a courtesy, not a rule :
> The point is, his opponent was actually cheating by refusing to reduce his list points, whereas representing models is not in the slightest bit cheating.
> Also I think he was using Melta-equipped Guardsmen to represent Lasgun-equipped dudes, not the other way around.


he said he didn't have the meltas, so it was using a lesser weapon to represent the stronger. again it is the being selective about which rules/conventions he follows, and then complaining so strongly about one not being followed that make him as wrong, if not more so.


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## Flindo (Oct 30, 2010)

ah yes, I am all too familar with the assholes who play by there own rules, if anyone does this, I just say fine, and go play with someone else.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Son of mortarion said:


> he said he didn't have the meltas, so it was using a lesser weapon to represent the stronger. again it is the being selective about which rules/conventions he follows, and then complaining so strongly about one not being followed that make him as wrong, if not more so.


Aah, ok.
But I reiterate, WYSIWYG is not a rule, it's a courtesy.


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