# What units should never be used?



## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Carrying on from my fantasy thread...

Which units in your Codex are so woeful, pointless, and downright useless, that no general in their right mind should ever consider taking them? Are they something in your own army you've never seen the point of, or a unit in someone elses that you destroy laughably easily?

What units should never be used?


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## ohiocat110 (Sep 15, 2010)

Tyranid Pyrovore. Easily the worst creature in the codex. It's way overpriced, doesn't have a good statline, and isn't even very good at doing what it's intended to do, which is fire its one flame weapon then get shot and explode. Worse, it takes up an Elite slot, which are precious to Nids because it's where nearly all of our anti-tank is located. 

I nominate it for worst unit in any 5th edition codex.


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## Kalshinko (Oct 22, 2010)

I would say legion of of the damned, it's not that they are bad troops but they are just way way too expensive.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

The casual player like me will say there are no units that should never be chosen because the hole game is about fun more than anything else.

Although if being picky I would nominate:

Sisters Repentia
Every FA choice in Codex Eldar
Support Weapon Batteries
Sniper Drones
Vespid
Kroot
Ethereals and in particular the Space Pope
Lone Wolves
Death Company with Bolters
Guardians
Every FA choice in Codex Chaos Space Marines
Flash Gitz (Not bad but too unreliable and eat precious heavy support slots)
Phoenix Lords
C'tan
Pariahs
GK Purgation Squads
Any Artillary choice cause they are too damn fragile!

Sure the list could go on but I have ran out of I can be bothered power.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

I've never encountered a useless unit.
I have encountered useless players who can't use their units effectively, however.


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## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

GrizBe said:


> Carrying on from my fantasy thread...
> 
> Which units in your Codex are so woeful, pointless, and downright useless, that no general in their right mind should ever consider taking them? Are they something in your own army you've never seen the point of, or a unit in someone elses that you destroy laughably easily?
> 
> What units should never be used?


None. There are NEVER pointless or useless units in any context. For example the Pyrovore from the Tyranid codex. Yes with so many other great Elite it will almost never get used but what about Planet Strike or Apocalypse. They are not that bad. Deep striking pyrovores are good and you now have an extra elite slot to fit them in. The Apocalypse games are so tank heavy that people are thrown completely of with infantry based armies so the Pyrovores do a great job at getting rid of them. And all of that is that the Pyrovore is a great modal and i prefer it to alot of the other Nid modals such as the Biovore. It it wasn't for Base size i would use them as Biovores instead of that actual modals.

Same sort of thing goes for every other codex. Swooping Hawks - I have a 10 man strong unit with Autarch and Pheionix lord, Chaos Spawn - I spawn the things all the time in my Tzeentch army, Devastatiors - I want 2 units for my Imperial Fists (currently at 1) And Death Company Dreadnoughts - They are great to see your opponents reaction as they continuously can't stop the thing mulling them.
Bottom line there is no such thing as "worst unit/model" only that some are better at certain more common place jobs or are better all rounders.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Bollocks. Swooping Hawks are bollocks.

One of the worst units in ANY Edition of the game, this incarnation.

Shining Spears are also pathetic. Rough Riders. Ogyrns. Whirlwinds. Thunderfire Cannons. Nork Deddog. Blood Angels Captains. Dark Angels entire Codex. Chaos Spawn. Most Grey Knights. Thousand Sons. Possessed. Baharroth. 

I could go on.


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## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Sisters Repentia
> Every FA choice in Codex EldarNot every. Spiders are good i find
> Support Weapon Batteries
> Sniper Drones
> ...


Just my opions to some in red


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## Kalshinko (Oct 22, 2010)

TheKingElessar said:


> Bollocks. Swooping Hawks are bollocks.
> 
> One of the worst units in ANY Edition of the game, this incarnation.
> 
> ...


 
I shoot you with my whirlwind


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

Space Marine Vanguard with Jump Packs, they're far to expensive for what they do.


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## Strange Dude (Jul 15, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> Rough Riders.


I'd disagree for 55pts a 5 man rough rider squad is a handy little unit and I rarely run a list without them (though I'm the first to admit I've gone off the deep end of wierd army lists don't use any Heavy Support in most of my IG lists) for the points they are a great distraction unit and with a large threat range can usually cause some trouble (they have krak grenades combined with fleet and a 12" charge can give vehicles a nasty suprise).


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

TheKingElessar said:


> Bollocks. Swooping Hawks are bollocks.
> 
> One of the worst units in ANY Edition of the game, this incarnation.
> 
> ...


Now, I know thats your opinion and all, but a few points I would make against them...

Whirlwinds - Great against Horde armies, cheap and cheerful tank
Thunderfire Cannons - 4 shots is pretty worthwhile you're getting a techmarine and artillery.. Yeah, the cannon is only AV10 it's still alright.
Dark Angels entire codex?! I have gone up against many Deathwing/Ravenwing combos and been completely destroyed! Most of my losses are due to DA...
Thousand Sons - I'm not being funny, but in a Rhino, they are rather good and nice to deploy.

Possessed - I'd agree.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Strange Dude said:


> I'd disagree for 55pts a 5 man rough rider squad is a handy little unit and I rarely run a list without them (though I'm the first to admit I've gone off the deep end of wierd army lists don't use any Heavy Support in most of my IG lists) for the points they are a great distraction unit and with a large threat range can usually cause some trouble (they have krak grenades combined with fleet and a 12" charge can give vehicles a nasty suprise).


Only if:
The vehicles are stationary
There are no troops nearby to shoot/charge you
They opponent doesn't know they have Kraks/are Cavalry
The enemy army has no Flamers
The rest of your army is so badass that a unit in charge range can be ignored.

...So, yeah - not COMPLETELY useless.

For the record, they are cool - I wouldn't have thought up fixes otherwise.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

GrizBe said:


> Carrying on from my fantasy thread...
> 
> Which units in your Codex are so woeful, pointless, and downright useless, that no general in their right mind should ever consider taking them? Are they something in your own army you've never seen the point of, or a unit in someone elses that you destroy laughably easily?
> 
> What units should never be used?


This thread is reminding of this blog post from 3++

The problem with this question is is you're not putting it in the right context. Without proper context we'll have plenty of people saying "that unit is a specialist and you just can't us it properly."

Are there units in every codex that are just poor choices and don't deserve a spot on a all comers list? Sure. SM has TCs, Whirlwinds, and Vanguard vets which spring to mind for obvious reasons (points to high, better choices available in the FOC, ect).

But thats the rub the units have no place in an all comers list, not no place in EVERY list. Homebrew campaigns, planet strike, battle missions all effect which units could be great for a list.

For competitive play there are plenty of units in each codex which are not a good choice, due to others being more cost effective. Take the game out of standard competitive play (read: using planet strike, battle missions, IA, homebrew campaigns) and those units may no longer seem useless.


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

I agree with most of the posters, although there are some notable exceptions:

Kroot?!!! Kroot are the main thing keeping the Tau even remotely playable. They're a fantastic unit, as long as you don't bother with a shaper or krootoxes. They can hurt the enemy greatly, have a 3+ cover save in forests, and can outflank. Either use 20 for maximum shooting, or focus on kroot hounds for CC power.

Lone Wolves are alright if you give them terminator armor, 2 wolves, a chainfist, and a combi-flamer. Thanks to the wolves, it's a lot more difficult to take them down through shooting, and having both the chainfist and combi-flamer allows them to threaten anything. Not the best unit, but not a bad one, by any means.

I used to trash Flash Gitz, until a more experienced player urged me to try them out, and now they keep winning me games. Give a large unit of them a transport (either a heavy support one or a trukk borrowed from boyz), all the gun upgrades, and painboy/cybork if you have the points, and you'll have a unit of nobz that can shoot. It's a great versatile unit in larger point games, that opponent's consistently underestimate.

Big Gunz are an artillery unit still worth using. They're dirt cheap kannon shots, in an army that needs them badly.

The Deceiver is worth taking, as few armies are completely prepared for him.

Ogryns are very tough, powerful, and especially useful in larger games, as bodyguards for your infantry blob.

Here are some units no one's mentioned that I can find no use for:

Heralds of Nurgle
Beasts of Nurgle
Furies
Boss Zagstrukk (always seems to get his entire unit killed)
Fenrisian wolves (way too easy to tank shock off the board)
Lictors (never seem to have an impact)
Death Cult Assassins 
Flagellants


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Kroot do suck. I find that they are too damn T3 for their own good, combined with armour made from crap and not being as numerable as an Ork unit means they are fragile. If I face a Tau army with Kroot it makes me smile since A) There is less scary stuff shooting me accross the table and B) They are ridiculously easy to take down.

Problem with lone Wolves is that it is better point for point just to have a Thunderwolf with a Frostblade and Storm Shield. More durable and has costs a lot less.

I have no trouble facing the Deceiver. Although the Eldar armies I consistantly use always have 10 Pathfinders in cover with a doom/guide farseer nearby.

Swooping Hawks do suck because they are essentially more expensive guardsmen with jump packs. No thanks.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Fen Wolves are ok. Not great, but very cheap, so ok.

Also, Kroot are great - they don't do a lot but speedbump...but that's exactly what Tau need them to do. Try charging Orks with them, and see what happens. lol


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## bishop5 (Jan 28, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> Rough Riders.


Disagree massively here.

The Guard's one decent, cheap counter-assault unit. They take a bit of getting used to but are definitely usable. 

Shame the models are so ugly. Soooo ugly.


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

I think that there a lot of obviously bad units. Shining spears, swooping hawks, vespid, eldar have so many of the worst units in 40k its not even funny. No wonder they are going extinct. There are also some bad units that dont appear bad at first, Im talking of course about thunder hammer terminators. 

Easily the most overrated unit in the game. Hammer terminators cost you nearly 3 tac marines per model. They are still T4 with 1 wound each. They are easily bubble wrapped. And walking units with no shooting is generally a big no no. But wait, you can use a land raider. No you cant, a raider for 5 hammernators costs 25% more than the terminators, more than doubling your cost. In addition you have to deal with the raider being completely unable to make its points back. Sure they work well against beginners and bad players who cant stop a raider, any good player will slag the tank with melta and tie the terminators up all game, or torrent them to death.

So you have 4 ways to run hammers.

-As a screen in a shooty marine army. This is the best option, but any real shooting list will just take your marines out from range and ignore the hammers. 

-Run 20 or so and walk them towards the enemy, this is bad bad bad. 

-run a single squad in a land raider, pray that your single deathstar doesnt get easily stopped and killed.

-double up on raider squads. This makes your hammers much more effective, and they also suck down half your points, after tacs you have nothing left.

Hammers are a great counter to deathstars, and are there as insurance for beginners who cant handle deathstars through tactics.


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

Hammer Terminators get a lot better with feel no pain, which the Blood Angels can give them. This is the much needed defense against opponent's trying to bring them down through large volumes of shooting. 

The also work well if you use Shrike, since you can attach him to their unit, and have them come in through outflanking, or you can just use Shrike's ability to give them fleet.

Still, you have a point. Despite being very powerful and difficult to kill, they aren't the best on foot, and a Land Raider more than doubles their cost. I wouldn't say 'never use them' though. They can work very well.


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

Blood angels play best with a fast and loose style, like they are boxing.

And shrike also increases their points, along with being a sub par character.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Any Artillary choice cause they are too damn fragile!


Fragile yes, but there's a few ways to mitigate that. Plus Artillery is an alpha-strike type unit, doing damage in the first few turns, and usually more than enough to justify fielding it. My Artillery does far more damage than the majority of Russ varients do an entire game (if they last that long).

If you play Guard and don't at least try some Artillery you're missing a trick.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

----Useless----

Stealth Suits (and I'm still pissed, since they are my favorite unit in the ENTIRE game)
Vespid (Most schizophrenic stats in the game and each one costs MORE than the Space Marines they are 'lack-of-designed' to kill pffffffffffffft worst unit in the entire game, bar none, not even swooping hawks)
Sniper drones (shouldn't be heavy support and they're overpriced)
Sky Ray (Seriously, it costs as much as a hammerhead)
Ethereal (Take this and be handicapped, yay!)

----Sub par----

Kroot (Kroot should have the upgrade options from chapter approved, I.E. +1 I, +1 WS etc, and they should be 1 point cheaper)
Piranhas (overpriced)
All Tau tanks have become overpriced since 5th edition since they no longer can fire all weapons and move 12"


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Are there such things as bad units? Maybe, but in most cases I'd say it's people not knowing how to use them.

Thousand Sons are a good example. They're a shooting unit designed to rapid fire kill the enemy from a distance, hence the fancy ammo. In a way they're not unlike Sternguard, only don't use them against Terminators.

Plague Marines are another good example. Against a lot of armies they're solid, dependable troops. Against a good Tau list, one with lots of plasma toting battlesuits, they'll die and die quickly.

As for the benighted Chaos Marine fast attack choices, well I know a guy who uses them both and I wouldn't say there performance was any worse than other units, I just think it's the case that most people slag them off because everyone else does.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Stephen_Newman said:


> The casual player like me will say there are no units that should never be chosen because the hole game is about fun more than anything else.


Thank you very much. This IMO ends the discussion.

If everyone stopped spamming the most 'powerful' units, and everyone took the odd unit that is still good, but maybe not as 'UBER POINTS COMPETITIVE AND TACTICALLY AWESOME IN EVRY WAY AGAINST EVERY OPPONENT!!!!!' sorry, then maybe people would try out some other units.

For example units such as :

Chaos Lords/Sorcerers and most Chaos Special Charcters
Chaos Raptors
Chaos Dreadnoughts
Chaos Defilers
Chaos Predators
Chaos Havocs
Regular Chaos Space Marines
Thousand Sons

Are all ignored in favour of the awesomeness that is Daemon Princes with Lash/Warptime, Plague Marines, Khorne Berzerkers and 3 units of Obliterators.

So whilst the options I listed aren't as competitive, NONE OF THEM are particularly broken and all can have there uses ... except for spawn, because even I can't defend that (although it is good when you get it for free, thank you Tzeentch!!!!)

So to some up, I hate threads like this, not because anyones not entitled to an opinion (they are), but because it promotes vast swathes of codices being condemned to the scrap heap as uncompetitive and useless, when most of them aren't really. They just aren't auto-takes and require a delicate hand and a bit of strategy to use.

RANT OVER.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

The Sullen One said:


> Are there such things as bad units? Maybe, but in most cases I'd say it's people not knowing how to use them.


Refer to my above post. I challenge thee to justify a stealth suit costing 2X that of a Space Marine, or a Vespid being 4 points more expensive.

And even using Vespid in battle, I don't care if you're Deep Blue, you're never ever in a million years going to get Vespid to make up for their points cost without copious amounts of luck and mentally challenged opponents.

Now Swooping Hawks... _Those_ could be used successfully... :king:


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

HOBO said:


> Fragile yes, but there's a few ways to mitigate that. Plus Artillery is an alpha-strike type unit, doing damage in the first few turns, and usually more than enough to justify fielding it. My Artillery does far more damage than the majority of Russ varients do an entire game (if they last that long).
> 
> If you play Guard and don't at least try some Artillery you're missing a trick.


Wrong Artillery mate. He means the TROOP TYPE. lol
IG "Artillery" are not.



The Sullen One said:


> Are there such things as bad units? Maybe, but in most cases I'd say it's people not knowing how to use them.
> 
> Thousand Sons are a good example. They're a shooting unit designed to rapid fire kill the enemy from a distance, hence the fancy ammo. In a way they're not unlike Sternguard, only don't use them against Terminators.
> 
> ...


ALL Power Armour dies to Plasma. Kind of the POINT. TSons are crap - they are too expensive, have no duality, no mobility, and have no real survivability either. They add nothing to a list.



D-A-C said:


> Thank you very much. This IMO ends the discussion.
> 
> If everyone stopped spamming the most 'powerful' units, and everyone took the odd unit that is still good, but maybe not as 'UBER POINTS COMPETITIVE AND TACTICALLY AWESOME IN EVRY WAY AGAINST EVERY OPPONENT!!!!!' sorry, then maybe people would try out some other units.
> ...
> ...


Sorry, but it's not opinion. Mathematically, any unit I call bad is bad. There is no shame in being bad when yo are from a Codex released in a previous Edition of the game, and there should be no issues with players accepting that obsolete things aren't as good - I don't see anyone claiming Ataris or Commodore64s are as the XBox360 or PS3 - why the double standard?



MetalHandkerchief said:


> Refer to my above post. I challenge thee to justify a stealth suit costing 2X that of a Space Marine, or a Vespid being 4 points more expensive.
> 
> And even using Vespid in battle, I don't care if you're Deep Blue, you're never ever in a million years going to get Vespid to make up for their points cost without copious amounts of luck and mentally challenged opponents.
> 
> Now Swooping Hawks... _Those_ could be used successfully... :king:


...:wild: - You know this is not true, and are baiting me.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Tau Ethereal.

don't care if your a player who feels there are no bad units only bad players (although true, especially for players who label themselves as good because they can spam) and don't care if your a casual player, Ethereals ARE truly the number 1 most useless unit in the game, and when you see your opponent deploy one, you know you've got an auto win and they have wasted points.

also grey knights, piss poor at shooting, pathetic at combat, and the worst army in the world to fight daemons, never seen a single person lose to them.


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## mahavira (Jan 10, 2010)

That the thread didn't end with "Tau Ethereal. Nuff said." is a bit of a surprise, as they are so terrible that it's hard for anything to seem bad in comparison. I nominate Witch Hunter Priests: your army is mostly BS4 with bolters, with WS, S, T and I 3. What do you need? Obviously a unit "upgrade" that causes you to always count as moving, have to assault if within range (so no rapid fire) all for the mighty power of rerolling misses (like those S3 non power attacks are going to do anything compared to rapid fire with rending bolters). Also, due to the minimum unit size of your base battle sister squad being 10, you can't have a priest and a rhino. Best of all, they're not especially cheap - you get to pay for downgrading your effectiveness and tactical options. Oh, and you can't take certain units unless you have one of these jokers: I've considered asking if I can spend the points to buy the priest but had him murdered before the army deployed.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

> TheKingElessar;836777]Wrong Artillery mate. He means the TROOP TYPE. lol
> IG "Artillery" are not.


Ah ok...my apologies:biggrin:


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Stealth Suits and Vespid are wayyyyyyyyy worse than Ethereals, I even sometimes field one just for the honor guard, if my FOC is maxed out on Fire Warriors. Reason being, such a unit can have 5 markerlights and make excellent rearguards.

Then again, we play games where all units except monstrous creatures, vehicles and swarms can hold objectives. This makes such a unit awesome. Just pure win.

But the Ethereal itself is definitely sub par, the honor guard is NOT.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Stealth Suits and Vespid are wayyyyyyyyy worse than Ethereals, I even sometimes field one just for the honor guard, if my FOC is maxed out on Fire Warriors. Reason being, such a unit can have 5 markerlights and make excellent rearguards.
> 
> Then again, we play games where all units except monstrous creatures, vehicles and swarms can hold objectives. This makes such a unit awesome. Just pure win.
> 
> But the Ethereal itself is definitely sub par, the honor guard is NOT.


No offence mate, but changing the fundamentals of the game so much invalidates your assertion there. 

Ethereals are tripe.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> No offence mate, but changing the fundamentals of the game so much invalidates your assertion there.
> 
> Ethereals are tripe.


GW should never have made that retarded rule, and I am sure many many people across the world are not using this rule in their casual game play.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

To be honest, I completely disagree.

I would HATE Devastators and Long Fangs to score, because then what's the point of playing anything else?


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

TheKingElessar said:


> To be honest, I completely disagree.
> 
> I would HATE Devastators and Long Fangs to score, because then what's the point of playing anything else?


Normally I think TKE gives pretty bad advice and isnt familiar with the game. I do however think he might be correct here. The hammer terminators which i pointed out as being between average and pig shit on the unit power scale would be super good if they could score.


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

I agree with some of whats being said here. For the most part, It comes down to how YOU use a unit in a game. However, there are SOME units that are completely not worth taking. One such example is the Ethereal.

One thing I do have a problem with is people saying T-Sons are such a unit. Seriously, use them in a game for what they are designed to do (which is rapid fire AP3 shots), with a Rhino for mobility (12" in the Rhino and 24" one shot or 12" rapid fire) and watch people die. Put 9 in a Land Raider with Kharn and watch you shoot and butcher everything you can get your hands on. It comes down to the creativeness of how you use a unit ie I took a unit of 10 bikers with the MoN, 2 meltaguns, and a power fist. T6 Bikers with an 18" assault range, being able to kill quite a lot, whilst having a 3+ save and if desired a 3+ cover save


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Dawnstar said:


> I agree with some of whats being said here. For the most part, It comes down to how YOU use a unit in a game. However, there are SOME units that are completely not worth taking. One such example is the Ethereal.
> 
> One thing I do have a problem with is people saying T-Sons are such a unit. Seriously, use them in a game for what they are designed to do (which is rapid fire AP3 shots), with a Rhino for mobility (12" in the Rhino and 24" one shot or 12" rapid fire) and watch people die. Put 9 in a Land Raider with Kharn and watch you shoot and butcher everything you can get your hands on. It comes down to the creativeness of how you use a unit ie I took a unit of 10 bikers with the MoN, 2 meltaguns, and a power fist. T6 Bikers with an 18" assault range, being able to kill quite a lot, whilst having a 3+ save and if desired a 3+ cover save


People who would suffer the pure unfluffyness of using Kharn in a Tzeentch unit do not deserve to play our brilliant game, they must be pummeled with *insert grotesque blunt object*


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

Who cares about the fluff for this game. If I want a story ill go read a biography or some real literature, like Goethe or Milton. Fluff is cool, but gameplay comes first. Besides, I cant think of anything really unfluffy about kharn riding with Tsons. Only raider around, hell jump in that to get head chopping faster.


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> People who would suffer the pure unfluffyness of using Kharn in a Tzeentch unit do not deserve to play our brilliant game, they must be pummeled with *insert grotesque blunt object*


People who think things such as this need to have the ability to understand that some people are ok with using such combinations, and need to understand that regardless of what you think, I will still use Kharn in a T-Sons unit. If you don't like how it doesn't fit with the fluff, then dont do it. However, do not expect other people to do the same "because you said so"


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

Dawnstar said:


> People who think things such as this need to have the ability to understand that some people are ok with using such combinations, and need to understand that regardless of what you think, I will still use Kharn in a T-Sons unit. If you don't like how it doesn't fit with the fluff, then dont do it. However, do not expect other people to do the same "because you said so"


Being a fluff nazi promotes boring cookie cutter lists more than anything else.


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

Exactly my point. If fluff nazi's are so set on having "fluff friendly lists" then thats cool for them. For those of us who want to have a fun list that fits our own fluff, thats cool as well


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> GW should never have made that retarded rule, and I am sure many many people across the world are not using this rule in their casual game play.


That doesn't really alter that your group is practically playing 4th edition version 2.0.

It also doesn't make your opinion any more valid. I mean, I could say that my group plays with a rule where Vespid have 10's in all stats and then declare them to be an excellent unit, but nobody would listen to me.


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## FlowAndEbb (Dec 25, 2010)

My friend uses Ethereal well. Keeps switching it back and forth between his Fire Warriors. Gets annoying.


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

Dawnstar said:


> Exactly my point. If fluff nazi's are so set on having "fluff friendly lists" then thats cool for them. For those of us who want to have a fun list that fits our own fluff, thats cool as well


What about those of us who run asskicking lists where fluff is literally never thought of. I think I went far enough to name my Logan Grimnar "Logan Asshammer". And nothing else?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> What about those of us who run asskicking lists where fluff is literally never thought of. I think I went far enough to name my Logan Grimnar "Logan Asshammer". And nothing else?


Well then you're _obviously_ a horrible human being and the epitome of everything wrong with 40K, Games Workshop, humanity and the universe as a whole. _Obviously_.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

It's gotta be Chaos Spawn for me.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> What about those of us who run asskicking lists where fluff is literally never thought of. I think I went far enough to name my Logan Grimnar "Logan Asshammer". And nothing else?


Let me lay some magical knowledge down on you my friend....... winning is a theme.:laugh:


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> What about those of us who run asskicking lists where fluff is literally never thought of. I think I went far enough to name my Logan Grimnar "Logan Asshammer". And nothing else?



From your "Main Armies" entries, I'd say "YAWN". 

"I cans read internetz and make de ASS-related lists!! HERPDERP!111"


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> Well then you're _obviously_ a horrible human being and the epitome of everything wrong with 40K, Games Workshop, humanity and the universe as a whole. _Obviously_.



Ray Lewis hug, again



> Let me lay some magical knowledge down on you my friend....... winning is a theme.:laugh:


You mean to tell me that in a horribly lethal universe military forces would equip themselves with what made them most likely to win?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> You mean to tell me that in a horribly lethal universe military forces would equip themselves with what made them most likely to win?


Not in so many words, but yes.


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

My god, its almost like....real warfare!


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

DeathKlokk said:


> From your "Main Armies" entries, I'd say "YAWN".
> 
> "I cans read internetz and make de ASS-related lists!! HERPDERP!111"


You done been trolled bro. I have my information set like that specifically to bait kids like you.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

Yeah, ok. "Kids" lol.


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

Guess, what, im also not russian! im just walking like a normal person today.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

Puns...?! Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Don't worry DeathKlokk. This guy also seems like a competitive ass who considers winning the top of his priority list. In other words the kinda guy I hate.


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

The only tournament I didnt place in top 3 in battle points wise I got best sportsman.

Most people I play at my LGS have asked for my phone number so they can play me more.

Last tournament I played in I won 40 bucks. I gave it to some 14 year old who was working on a guard army made from nothing but grots. 

Ive sold a lot of people at my LGS models for 25% of retail. They want to improve their armies and I have models Im not using. 

I win a lot sure, my W/L/D is entirely true. But I also have fun, and try and let my opponents have fun in the process. The game isnt all about winning you know?


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> The only tournament I didnt place in top 3 in battle points wise I got best sportsman.
> Says the guy who claims he is 12 and comes from Russia. Hmmm...
> Most people I play at my LGS have asked for my phone number so they can play me more.
> Really? (Hey look I can be sarcastic too)
> ...


I was not aware the game was not only about winning from a guy who has openly advocated this for years. 

Some of my views in red judged on what you regularly post in these forums.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Don't worry DeathKlokk. This guy also seems like a competitive ass who considers winning the top of his priority list. In other words the kinda guy I hate.


What is it with you and being unable to realize that there's a difference between someone who plays to win and an asshole? It's really not a difficult concept.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> What is it with you and being unable to realize that there's a difference between someone who plays to win and an asshole? It's really not a difficult concept.


HA HA HA HA HA HA.

This is the funniest thing I have heard in ages, you should do stand-up.

Someone who plays to win ... not being an asshole.

HA HA HA HA HA HA.

Damn I love Heresy online, you meet the funniest people.


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

Stephen_Newman said:


> I was not aware the game was not only about winning from a guy who has openly advocated this for years.
> 
> Some of my views in red judged on what you regularly post in these forums.


You do understand right that I find it very hard to take a great deal of stuff on the internet seriously? Theres a group of people in every forum who feel they have some kind of moral superiority to the rest of us due to some convoluted logic they follow. So the 12 year old netlister persona is done largely to get a rise out of you. If you want to know what I really think about stuff read that above post that you responded to, its 100% true. Selling models at 25% retail isnt a bad deal, especially if its an army you still play. 

But you can also find some of my more serious thoughts in the competitive vs cooperative thread in the serious business forum.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

In no way do I think myself more superior to you in any way. I just look down on you becuase I think you are lying.

And I am sorry but in my years of gaming being competitive and not being an asshole just doesn't mix and has not been reported. Ever!


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Stephen_Newman said:


> In no way do I think myself more superior to you in any way. I just look down on you becuase I think you are lying.


This is commonly referred to as a contradiction.

You can't not think you're better than someone and simultaneously look down on them.



> And I am sorry but in my years of gaming being competitive and not being an asshole just doesn't mix and has not been reported. Ever!


Then your idea of what makes an asshole is out of whack.


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

Clearly then you need to get out more. You think im lying based on what? The fact that I win games of 40k?


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## FlowAndEbb (Dec 25, 2010)

Never knew a thread could turn into a flame war 7 pages in.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Flames of war?.....they has been fanned.

Seriously though these flame wars are cropping up more and more these days, a troubling trend on the forum.


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

I would like to point out that it was a mod who started the flame war, and Stephen Newman who really got it going after me and dethklok decided to leave it alone. I would also like to point you to D-A-Cs comment.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

We got from worst unit to competative players being cocks pretty quickly 

I think the problem here is context. Some units are pretty bad when taken for say tournament play, when you cant gaurantee what your facing. But on other occassions the unit could be pretty useful. Another thing to consider is game size. I assume that Chug takes 1750 - 1850 as a standard game size? This would make certain unit viable and others not. Chugs annalysis of the TH+SS unit for instance may be right, and its true its is an 'eggs in one basket' unit. But at 1500 points there are less multi meltas and meltas out there to blow up the landraider delivery unit. What if you use a redeemer instead? Those close range firepower can be used effectivly if you are bold enough. Not picking on you by the way Chug, its just your example was the first to come to mind.

But there are a few units that are defenitly sub par. Etherals without an honour gaurd, Chaos spawn (although they can be quite funny to use) and Vespid (too expensive, could do with thier weapon being Assault 2) to name a few.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

To be fair, Dethklok hardly caused that little shitfest. I was more Newman jumping in and being unnecessarily douchie. Still, it takes two to tango... Well, 4 in this case. Also, it really isn't a flame war till someone brings up *NAZIS*.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Okay everyone... stop being asses already. This was meant to be a usefull thread for helping steer people away from units that were point sinks, bad rules etc... not a slanging match to see who the biggest forum douchebag is.... Newman.


Can we get back on topic already....?


What units should never be used?


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

FlowAndEbb said:


> Never knew a thread could turn into a flame war 7 pages in.


and I wasn't involved :shok:


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> and I wasn't involved :shok:


Don't worry Stella, everyone knows you were asleep, and therefore no-one is surprisd. You can't tro...POST...in _*every *_thread.

Chug - I totally give L33t advice! 

Several of you were being dicks though. I'm tempted to -Rep anyone who can't understand the disconnect between wanting to have fun competing and wanting to have fun beating up children. Not hard to tell the gap there.

Back on topic: Techmarines are pretty useless in the SM book. Not as bad as Vespid or Hawks, but pretty crap, and have no purpose in Competitive play.

Since in Casual play you can use anything, or Apoc/Spearhead/Planetstrike/CoD (actually, Planetstrike has some really skewed conditions that makes TH/SS uber, instead of solidly good, makes shit units (Baharroth) great, and makes pretty much any vehicle shit for attackers.) - There is no point discussing them.

Like Katie said, House Rule stuff with 10/10/10/10/10/10/10/10/2+/2++ and all of a sudden it's not shit - and in Casual play, who's to say you won't?


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## OrdoMalleus (Apr 24, 2009)

Back on topic....as TKE said earlier...GK


Grey Knight teleport Attack.WHY GAMES WORKSHOP????

why would I pay 300 points for a mediocre unit that is exactly the same as my troops but cant score?!? And then once they used their single useful trick have to foot slog it around getting shot the shit out of becase theyre so fucking slow.


Also witch hunter priests seem as useful as a cock flavoured lollypop. (Admittedly you only take them to acess other units but theyre still shite)


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

...While they are (literally) not to my taste, I'm sure cock-flavoured lollypops would sell fairly well. Certainly, you could make a profit.


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> ...While they are (literally) not to my taste, I'm sure cock-flavoured lollypops would sell fairly well. Certainly, you could make a profit.


You can only imagine how ridiculous the advertisements would be like, especially on T.V. :grin:

Worst part is they'd probably advertise it with children in it, being the next new fad like push or ring pops, instead being called dicky pops with a "creamy white centre" and various gimmicks like it getting harder the more you lick it....:shok: I'll stop before I get too far...

In terms of uselessness I have to say Sisters Repentia or the techpriest enginseer are also pretty damn useless, one being too fragile, slow, and uncontrollable to do any good while the other is a pointsink, fragile and can't keep up with most of the vehicles and most stationary ones like the artillery usually is taken out with deep-strikers or various infiltrating troops anyways so the enginseer just dies with it. Bloody ridiculous I say!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

@Grim, 
"How many licks does it take you to get to the center of a cock flavored lollypop?" 

"one, two, three... CRUNCH." 

"The wold may never know."


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> @Grim,
> "How many licks does it take you to get to the center of a cock flavored lollypop?"
> 
> "one, two, three... CRUNCH."
> ...


...*Shudder*


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

Ok, WAY too much thought is being put into this....


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

I don't think anybodys mentioned this one.

The Avatar.

Yup, I said it. He really sucks dick in larger pt games. (and by that I mean more than 1000)


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

TKE mentioned how much the avatar sucks on another site, it didnt end well for him


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

Mom? MOM! Popcorn! MOAR POPCORN!!


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Svartmetall said:


> Mom? MOM! Popcorn! MOAR POPCORN!!


MOM! THE MEATLOAF! FUCK!


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> TKE mentioned how much the avatar sucks on another site, it didnt end well for him


This is true. It took them a whole couple minutes to ban me for it.

I have a sad for being reminded.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Give us a link, I wish to see it in all of its glory.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Alas, my post was deleted. I will regale you with the tale via my blog soon, I don't think Jez would want me crowing about exactly how I "trolled" Warseer (I didn't _actually_) here TOO much. For now, I have a picture of the end result just posted upon my blog < an hour ago...


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Cyleune said:


> I don't think anybodys mentioned this one.
> 
> The Avatar.
> 
> Yup, I said it. He really sucks dick in larger pt games. (and by that I mean more than 1000)


Strange, I haven't had a problem with the Avatar and I've played since 3rd edition.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Vrykolas2k said:


> Strange, I haven't had a problem with the Avatar and I've played since 3rd edition.


That doesn't automagically make you, your opponents, or the Avatar good.

Avatars are rubbish. No Fleet, no good save, not high enough T/W, insufficient ranged attack, takes away a very scarce HQ slot, yes prevents Guardians running away, but that sees them butchered in CC.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> That doesn't automagically make you, your opponents, or the Avatar good.
> 
> Avatars are rubbish. No Fleet, no good save, not high enough T/W, insufficient ranged attack, takes away a very scarce HQ slot, yes prevents Guardians running away, but that sees them butchered in CC.


Actually, they're pretty good for their points.
And why would you let your guardians get into cc anyway?


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

Its got nothing to do with letting your opponents get into combat. 

That is a common myth perpetuated by players who constantly play bad opponents. Big Fish in a stagnant Pond syndrome. If your guardians are never getting into hand to hand combat then you need to play better players. 

The argument "why would you let your opponent" only works when you are significantly better than them. When you get 2 people of equal skill then army becomes a much bigger factor.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Vrykolas2k said:


> Actually, they're pretty good for their points.
> And why would you let your guardians get into cc anyway?


Which, Guardians are good for their points? 
I can't deny, 10 Guardians with EmboLock and EML are cheap.

But cheap =/= good, especially when they have a 12" range on their crappy guns...12" - hey wait! That means if I can shoot you, then you can charge me! Then we'll be in CC! 

To put it another way - paying 130(?) points for a single BS3 EML shot a turn and 9 bodybags is not cheap at all.
Especially when they have comparable statlines to a 50 point IG unit that then buys an Autocannon and still ends up under half the cost.



ChugginDatHaterade said:


> Its got nothing to do with letting your opponents get into combat.
> 
> That is a common myth perpetuated by players who constantly play bad opponents. Big Fish in a stagnant Pond syndrome. If your guardians are never getting into hand to hand combat then you need to play better players.
> 
> The argument "why would you let your opponent" only works when you are significantly better than them. When you get 2 people of equal skill then army becomes a much bigger factor.


Agreed.


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## Jackinator (Nov 18, 2008)

ChugginDatHaterade said:


> Who cares about the fluff for this game. If I want a story ill go read a biography or some real literature, like Goethe or Milton. Fluff is cool, but gameplay comes first. Besides, I cant think of anything really unfluffy about kharn riding with Tsons. Only raider around, hell jump in that to get head chopping faster.


Hey hang on there, try looking at the number of posts in the fluff section and that should answer your question. Plus the only thing that's kept me in the hobby is the fluff so don't go putting it down like that. Sure you can take whatever combinations of units you like and I have no problem with that. But don't go slagging off fluff, it's one of the great things about 40k. And the point that he was making was the fact that in the previous chaos codex units with the mark of Khorne could not join units with the mark of Tzeentch due to the fact that the gods are like mortal enemies.

There is nothing wrong with any combination of units in a list but fluff based lists aren't really that boring to the ones playing with them. Plus some of them can be really wild and wacky, Haemonculi coven anyone?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Jackinator said:


> ... in the previous chaos codex units with the mark of Khorne could not join units with the mark of Tzeentch due to the fact that the gods are like mortal enemies.





> the gods are like mortal enemies.





> like *mortal *enemies.


...:smoke:




> There is nothing wrong with any combination of units in a list


Sadly, a lot of players into their fluff say the opposite, and it is very annoying.


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## Jackinator (Nov 18, 2008)

Ah, whoops, :laugh:. nemeses. or just immortal enemies:laugh:. Well spotted.

I know what you mean, personally I tend to stick within fluff standards myself but I've had people get annoyed at my ork army cause my battle wagons are all converted from land raiders :laugh:. (Although it may be because it's just smashed them into the ground)


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Most players who complain about armies being 'unfluffy' don't actually understand the fluff, and are just bitter because they lost - they are looking for anything to blame but themselves.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Or there are some who actually know some fluff. Although some just have their own fluff which disagrees with your own version when choosing your army.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Or there are some who actually know some fluff. Although some just have their own fluff which disagrees with your own version when choosing your army.


Sure, some (probably even most) people know some fluff. But the thing with 40K's background is that it's incredibly subjective and is extremely open to interpretation. There are dozens of instances where the writers are purposely vague and non-descriptive in order to give people room to do as they wish, so giving someone trouble for having a non-fluffy army is sort of silly and speaks more about one's own small-mindedness and intolerance than it does about the person with the "unfluffy" army.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

shokk attak guns are the biggest ork FAIL! 9 times out of 10 they will self-destruct.
Also, talos is a fail as it doesn't match the style that the Dark Eldar play, except maybe to draw fire.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Sure, some (probably even most) people know some fluff. But the thing with 40K's background is that it's incredibly subjective and is extremely open to interpretation. There are dozens of instances where the writers are purposely vague and non-descriptive in order to give people room to do as they wish, so giving someone trouble for having a non-fluffy army is sort of silly and speaks more about one's own small-mindedness and intolerance than it does about the person with the "unfluffy" army.


^ This.

Only people can ever tell me something in 'unfluffy' are Design Team, BL authors, and former Design Team members. And David Bowie.

But I don't think he plays 40k.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

He doesn't have to play it, he's IN it. (Refers to Dark Eldar) And I'm pretty sure he'd get a kick out of his fluff.


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## Luisjoey (Dec 3, 2010)

Vanguard, pyrovore, legion of the damned are bad! overpriced and not so effective.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

hurray for getting back on topic.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> Which, Guardians are good for their points?
> I can't deny, 10 Guardians with EmboLock and EML are cheap.
> 
> But cheap =/= good, especially when they have a 12" range on their crappy guns...12" - hey wait! That means if I can shoot you, then you can charge me! Then we'll be in CC!
> ...





You're ignoring the fact I was referring the Avatar as being good for its points, and the fact that most people take some type of long-range heavy weapon with their guardian squads. I'm a fan of starcannons, personally.
Unless we're discussing storm guardians, of course.


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

starcannons


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

Aren't long fangs supposed to be really bad for some reason?

I'm glad someone mentioned techmarines because I still cant decide If I really like using mine.

I tend to stick him in my list at 1000 to 1500 but not less or more. I play BT though and usually dont use him for the whole vehicle repair thing or accompany him with servitors, and dont even have the option of thunderfire canon. I'll join him with a crusader squad and use the unit to help him get across the table and charge into close combat. Oh but I always use the full servo harness model. Wouldn't take one otherwise. So maybe that's different from talking about just a normal techmarine.

Also people mentioned the C'tan and one person backed the deceiver. I'm familair with someone who has a necron list using him and he placed in top ten with them in the two tournaments he took them too. 6th or 7th in one and 10th in the other. So I'm convinced he is good. but the deathbringer is bad? Why? the real big disadvantage I can see is that they cant be joined to a unit so armies good at shooting could probably take them down pretty easily.

Grey knights well GW is fixing them up soon, last I've heard and read anyway that they are next on the codex list. I'm certain vespid were never meant to be such a bad unit, so they will probably get a lot of boost as well, I feel like that was just a GW mistake, maybe didnt play test them enough or something. But yeah I dont think i have seen a single vespid model on this site or in person yet.

edit* oh yeah and the 40k fluff is amazing. It's one of the richest and largest fiction universes I've ever gotten into and its got me stuck well enough that I've stopped caring about any of the others out there.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Vrykolas2k said:


> You're ignoring the fact I was referring the Avatar as being good for its points, and the fact that most people take some type of long-range heavy weapon with their guardian squads. I'm a fan of starcannons, personally.
> Unless we're discussing storm guardians, of course.


No, that was a misunderstanding.

However, I have already given reason why it is shit, and you have not been able to (or, as far as I can seem tried to) counter those (the Warseer-esque argument "I like it!" isn't in fact an argument FOR anything) and so my point stands - it's bollocks.

As for Starcannons...firstly, 36" isn't long-range, it's mid-range. Secondly, define 'fan of'. If you mean 'think are good', or 'like' I would like to know which you mean. Both is obviously also a valid reply. :laugh:


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## XV8crisis (Jul 31, 2008)

Imperial guard Penal legions (or conscript platoons or whatever)
They cost more than normal infantry and have worse stats. And for guard, that's bad. Really bad.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Conscripts are awesome if you buy 100 of them you save 100points!


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

XV8crisis said:


> Imperial guard Penal legions (or conscript platoons or whatever)
> They cost more than normal infantry and have worse stats. And for guard, that's bad. Really bad.


Yeah, never seen a use for Conscripts...Penal Legion, at least, have a role - albeit one that often doesn't need filled.


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## Trickstick (Mar 26, 2008)

Hey all. On the subject of Kharn joining a Thousand Sons squad, it sounds really fluffly to me. Where else would he have such a good opportunity to kill Thousand Sons?

Worst unit in the IG codex has to be Nork. It is a shame because he is really good but is just far too expensive. I mean stupidly expensive. Or possibly the worst unit is Mogul Kamir, an upgrade that makes your squad worse! He has a (arguably) useless furious charge rule and the rage rule, taking control away form your precission strike force. At least i recently discovered that rage doesn't compel you to actually charge anything; so it's not terribly bad, just mostly bad.


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## Tylith (Jan 10, 2011)

Mandrakes anybody?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Tylith said:


> Mandrakes anybody?


Mandrakes fill an important niche roll actually - S4 AP4 shooting (sometimes wounding on a 4+ doesn't cut it). The hard part is getting the fuckers a Pain Token in the first place. Could always attach a Haemonculus but... that seems a waste of their Infiltrate. Oh well, not every unit can be perfect.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

yeah mandrakes are one of those units where if you have them in the right place at the right time they are perfect it just hard to make that happen very often


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