# Juggernids - specualtions on likely Tyranid tactics.



## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Having read through the codex today while at work, and spent my break thinking about possible tactics, both for and against Tyranids.

Now given the high cost of the larger gribblies, especially carnifexes, I don't see Nidzilla armies being possible anymore, not on the scale they were with the previous codex.

On the other hand aficinados of the horde army will flock to the new Tyranids like moths to a flame, only its their opponents who'll get burned.

Now I'd take two Tyranid Primes as my HQ choices, give them a couple of boneswords, and use them to control the two halves of my armies.

For troops three units of termagaunts, each twenty apiece, covering for two units of ten genestealers acting as outflankers, all this is in a standard 1500pt game.

This is not to say the big gribblies should be forgotten about completely, because they have one very nice surprise, deep-striking Carnifexes.

Single carnifexes, and running a squad is too expensive for anything less than 2'000 points, can be given a mysetic spore as a dedicated transport, basically a nid drop pod. Deep strike this next to a Leman Russ, Predator or the like, or better yet the Dreadnaught that your mate's just drop-pod next to your prize troops. 

Put simply he's got a tough choice, ignore the Carnifex or ignore the walking jaw line thats bearing down on his lines.

As to outfitting him, well I'd add crushing claws and a heavy venom cannon, one gives you potentially three more attacks, and the other's a S9 weapon. Nice against side armour.

So there you go, Nidzillas given way to Juggernids, or a rolling carpet of little critters with the big gribblies hitting your enemy right from the get-go.


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I dont think you can count out any army form with the new dex... just to give a couple of examples:

5 Tervigons , 3 trygons, 3*15 termagants, 3 venomthropes
- more T6 wounds then old nidzilla and a controllable wall of gaunts... no trouble scoring and almost impossible to kill.

Tervagon, 6*15 stealers (toxin/glands and broodlord)
- 90 stealers starting 18" away from your army (infiltrate)... unless you run heavy mech your army will be toast come turn 2. Even mech lists will be in serious trouble with that many S4/5 rending attacks flying around. Even has a synapse creature hiding away making free troops tp hold defensive objectives.


... these arent even balanced, thought through lists... just examples of what 'could' be done with the new dex.


----------



## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Tim/Steve said:


> I dont think you can count out any army form with the new dex... just to give a couple of examples:
> 
> 5 Tervigons , 3 trygons, 3*15 termagants, 3 venomthropes
> - more T6 wounds then old nidzilla and a controllable wall of gaunts... no trouble scoring and almost impossible to kill.
> ...



Well your second list is another example of what I was talking about, namely the odd big gribbly backing up a donkeyload of critters. As to the first list is 5Tervigons even possible? I thought they were HQ choices.


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Sure its possible- every unit of termagants allows 1 tervagon to be used as a troops choice, and its not even as nasty as it gets (just come to me that it can gets even worse).

Hive Tyrant, heavy venom cannon
2 Tyrant Guard
Hive Tyrant, heavy venom cannon
2 Tyrant Guard
3 Tervagons
3*10 Termagants
3 Trygons
=1965, with 52 T6 wounds plus millions of gaunts compared to the old Nidzilla of <47 T6 wounds with bugger all troops (or just take an old style dakka tyrant- 200pts and it has 12 TL S6 shots a turn).
Nidzilla isnt dead.. but it might no longer be the best tourny list (though I wouldnt put money on it).


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

The biggest problem with the Tervigon spam is that each of them is potentially a mine for the Termas around them. Blow one up and you'll have a nice couple of dead Termas. Blow up those sorrounded by the most Termas and you lost half your army, not to mention that if you roll a double with 3 dice (which isn't too unlikely, happened to my friend in Turn 1) the Mamafex in question will run out of kids. I think that its best to take two and have them hold the safest objectives (since they're troops once you take them with Termas and thus are scoring; unless I'm wrong ). Sometimes having fewer is better than having more.


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Tervigons average 25 'kids' in a 6-7 turn game, the majority of which come early on (average stops increasing through chance of runnign out going up). When the tervigon dies it should kill 4.3 gaunts from each unit within 6"... which is unlikely to be more then 2. Losing 9 gaunts isnt really the end of the world (45pts worth of gaunts cant be considered 'half your army' even with serious exaggeration).
Add to that that it'll probably take a turn or 2 to kill a 6W MC even with concentrated fire and you will probably have time to move it away from multiple gaunt units.

TBH though, aiming at the tervigons is exactly what the nid player would want... they wont actually do any damage. Its the trygons and tyrants that'll really do damage in zilla lists. The tervigon is hard enough to beat some units and can take out tanks but isnt going to scythe through whole units of marines any time soon... though by the time it makes a huge swarm of gaunts it'll certainly be nasty, its main skill remains that it is scoring (and produces more scoring units) and is very hard to kill.


----------



## flankman (Jan 26, 2009)

i like the idea of tervigon (i need to buy more gaunts lol i ran out of them to field if you count the squad i take to unlock it as a troop)

whats fun about the tervigon is for 220 ish points you have a 6 wound model that summons anti infantry and it can crush alot of things on its own AND it can give feel no pain to some one (dont know if it counts self) how ever i only want to field one atm Two at the most


----------



## Larx (May 17, 2009)

Keep in mind even if it only kills 9 average termgaunt squads, you have also lost a synapse creature, which might make the brood. lose fearless therefore most likely make the brood suffer a morale check. Let's face it their morale check has a little less then a 50% chance of being made, that will lead you to lose one of those two broods to falling back, consider you wouldn't want your mama on the front lines. 
She is a fun concept and a great piece of fluff which I can't wait to run, however she is way to volatile to be considered a serious HQ choice. Troop choice does help counter this, but to me she is still fluff and I will gladly run her in my coming lists. I wouldn't dare take her to a tourney and I would never let her sit near a home objective for fear her inevitable death will scare my house-sitters away.
The only real way to counteract it is with two mamas near each other, because you seriously won't have other synapse creatures in the back with her. Most synapse creatures are geared for assaulting the enemies territory.


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

I remember that when I blew his Mamafex up, my friend lost almost a whole squad (one measly Terma survived) and another got hurt too. Depending on the terrain, things could go either way. In a city your Mamafex is a bomb asking to be blown up; in a desert, shes less of a threat to your own troops but still a big problem to your opponent.
I think that the Mamafex is a competitive girl and shes bound to appear in Tournaments, one at least, probably two. I don't know why you say shes not, shes a hulking behemoth that can have decent guns to shoot with and in the meantime she can deploy scoring Termas to hold an objective, then move on.


----------



## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Okay so I was slightly wrong about there being no possibility of a nidzilla army, but given the Tervigon's downside, I doubt you'll see tourney armies with many of them in.

This brings us back to my idea of the Juggernids army. Now I spent a fair bit of last night thinking this over, and the way I see composition will depend on how much strategy your opponent can be bothered with. For the player who doesn't give a rat's furry behind for tactics, then it'll come down to being simply a case of which units are for killing, and which are for being blown up by long-range high-strength weaponry.

For those who do think of strategy and tactics as something more than a hinderance to playing, then we might see some warrior broods to hold objectives.

As for fighting them, well your best bet is long range (48"-72") high-strength (7+) weaponry. So Defilers, Thunderfire cannons, Whirlwinds, Basilisks, Leman Russes, Fire Prisms and the like. We might even see the Ion Cannon Hammerhead make a good showing.

Infantry wise, meltas and flamers are obviously a must, along with missile launchers, lascannons or the like.


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Average gaunt unit made by Terv= 10.5 gaunts
Average wounds on gaunts by dying Terv= 1.75 (should be in cover, and go to ground)

So basic sense (objective in cover, gtg) means killing the tervigon isnt important, or just sit 6-12" away from him to get his synapse but not his death throws... only benefit of being within 6" is if the enemy actually start to get close.


Also, the tervigon is likely to have a cover save (place the objective in a forest/building and he can easily get cover) so by the time you have killed him (T6 3+sv 6W) you could have killed 2 trygons... can anyone say 'massive tactical mistake'.
Far from being a liability I recon the tervigon is the games best objective sitter, even better then eldar rangers.
- I have happily used 5-10 marines for this same job before now... so 6W @ T6 and <25W at T3, especially if I can get the 4+ cover save on the tervagon (and gtg for a 3+ on the gaunts) should be more then any army can manage... even if their aim wasnt drawn to the rest of the army thats attacking them (tervigon is only ~200pts so lots more nids out there).


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

You could go cheap on Troops, just get three-four decent shooty squads of Warriors, two in Snot Pods, 3x3 Hive Guards (these guys are just too good to leave at home), two flying Hive Tyrants and the rest could be spent on Carnifexes, though I think what I've listed is around 1500 points already. However, considering that most of these units are nearly impossible to instant death and that all of them have multiple wounds and decent Toughness and armour save, it shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

There's a running theme in this thread of pick one unit and spam the crap out of it (tervigons, genestealers, hive guard...). In reality, for possibly the first time ever in 40k, I reckon the best lists will have a little of all the good units. There is just too much positive reinforcement and synergy in the list not to.

I'm a pretty competative tournament kind of player. It takes me about 6-12 months to really hammer out my preferred list. Why does everyone on tinterwebz think they can do it in about two days?


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

OddJob said:


> There's a running theme in this thread of pick one unit and spam the crap out of it (tervigons, genestealers, hive guard...). In reality, for possibly the first time ever in 40k, I reckon the best lists will have a little of all the good units. There is just too much positive reinforcement and synergy in the list not to.
> 
> I'm a pretty competative tournament kind of player. It takes me about 6-12 months to really hammer out my preferred list. Why does everyone on tinterwebz think they can do it in about two days?


Because just brainstorming about it brings you closer to *the* list you're going to run with and to understand the army better in general. And its fun too.


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Oddjob- notice how this is in the tactics section, not the army lists section. We're not trying to pump out a kill all tourny list, just get an idea of what nids are capable of. Which going on what we have so far is pretty much anything you could think of. Balanced lists might be good on the gaming table but not for a theoretical discussion of what you can do with your army, which seems to be just about anything with this dex... except mebbe a ranged army
- the cost of doing a dakka tyrant/fex is pretty steep so its left to zoe's and hive guard (mebbe biovores, particularly against GEQ armies). I recon that most tyranid armies will be forced to do the buly of their damage in combat, only relying on guns for support... which as far as Im concerned is exactly what nids should be about (I was getting bored with my shooty nid army as well).


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

I still agree with Oddjob on his firist point, that Spammed Nid lists won't be the most competative way to go.


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yes it is not the most compatetive nid list, it also wont contain any space marines or be made out of cheese... see I can make irrelevant comment too

This is tactics, not an army list. Can you do nidzilla now? Yes, here's a vaguely plausible list. Can you do stealer shock? Yes, here's a vaguely plausible list. 
- the thread isnt aiming to make the ultimate list, its asking are the different nid tactics we saw last edition still possoble and what might we see thats new... if you want to add a 'type' of list and suggest some tactics for it then go for it... but as far as competetive goes I'm sure almost all of us would go for balanced lists almost every time.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Tervigon reminds me of the Defiler. Its a badass model that blows most away at range and decimates up close. HOWEVER, the defiler is a easy target magnet. Now Im not sure if Tervigons are huge or not as I still never seen a Model or Pic of any Coversions as of yet, but it will be a Fire Magnet none the less. A smart player will make Tervigons in mass useless by blowing mutiples of them apart in turn 1-2.


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Warlock in Training said:


> Tervigon reminds me of the Defiler. Its a badass model that blows most away at range and decimates up close. HOWEVER, the defiler is a easy target magnet. Now Im not sure if Tervigons are huge or not as I still never seen a Model or Pic of any Coversions as of yet, but it will be a Fire Magnet none the less. A smart player will make Tervigons in mass useless by blowing mutiples of them apart in turn 1-2.


How? How do you kill multiple Tervigons in a turn or two? They have six wounds and probably cover. :shok:


----------



## Dessel_Ordo (Jul 28, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> How? How do you kill multiple Tervigons in a turn or two? They have six wounds and probably cover. :shok:


I could see a Termy Librararian with MoTA & SS in a Land Raider (crusader of redeemer) with a bunch of assault termies taking 1 by turn 2 or 3 if you kamikaze dived them in, if the termies were TH/SS and the nid player particularly foolish they could plausibly (not likely or reliably) dual assault and kill two. (Force Weapon lucking out and instant deathing one, hammers beating down the other). You would need copious ammounts of supporting fire to clear the path, and the unit would be dead the turn after they got their kills, but its doable with luck.

I think the new awful spam list is gonna be tunnelzilla really, the potential damage the mawlock can cause for its points is crazy. so maybe Tyrant, stealers for troops a Trygon and 2 Mawlocks for HS, Pyrovores or Hivguard in elites and fill it out with gaunts? (really rough guesswork there, but its the basic skeleton I'd shoot for were I to build a 'nid army for competitiveness)


----------



## Larx (May 17, 2009)

Rune priests jaws of the world wolf power, could kill one fairly easily. Not sure if initiative tests benefit from the 1 is always passing, but if they do not then it is an auto kill. So shadows of the warp HQs will need to be close to prevent psykers from doing major damage to the big guys. Many wolves are running two Ruin priests for that ability and also for the anti ds ability. Since can run both with exact same powers you can run both with at least a pair of one. Wolves really have a lot of anti mc units and also anti horde since they are decently built for cc. That is how 2 Tervigons could go down in 2 turns. 
As for other armies not sure, necrons won't likely stand a chance at taking one down in a decent time frame.


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> Tervigon reminds me of the Defiler. Its a badass model that blows most away at range and decimates up close. HOWEVER, the defiler is a easy target magnet. Now Im not sure if Tervigons are huge or not as I still never seen a Model or Pic of any Coversions as of yet, but it will be a Fire Magnet none the less. A smart player will make Tervigons in mass useless by blowing mutiples of them apart in turn 1-2.


Except Tervigons really aren't that killy. A S5 Blast at 18" isn't overly dangerous, and it only has 3 attacks at I1 in combat. They are slow too, meaning they are unlikely to get into combat in the first place.



Larx said:


> Rune priests jaws of the world wolf power, could kill one fairly easily. Not sure if initiative tests benefit from the 1 is always passing, but if they do not then it is an auto kill.


1 is an auto-pass, and Montrous Creatures get a -1 bonus to the roll (so will only die on a 3+).


----------



## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Khorothis said:


> Because just brainstorming about it brings you closer to *the* list you're going to run with and to understand the army better in general. And its fun too.


Agreed- but more directed brainstorming will get you there more quickly. Considering real Tyranid lists is more directed than whats happened so far.



Tim/Steve said:


> Oddjob- notice how this is in the tactics section, not the army lists section. We're not trying to pump out a kill all tourny list, just get an idea of what nids are capable of. Which going on what we have so far is pretty much anything you could think of. Balanced lists might be good on the gaming table but not for a theoretical discussion of what you can do with your army, which seems to be just about anything with this dex... except mebbe a ranged army


More so than any other list units need to be considered in combination- gaunts are pap by themselves, fantastic with tervigon support and mega killy with tyrant and tervigon support. Only considering certain units in isolation will not give you an idea what they are capable of and therefore what the list is capable of. Working out the best combinations is making this codex really interesting.



Tim/Steve said:


> - the cost of doing a dakka tyrant/fex is pretty steep so its left to zoe's and hive guard (mebbe biovores, particularly against GEQ armies). I recon that most tyranid armies will be forced to do the buly of their damage in combat, only relying on guns for support... which as far as Im concerned is exactly what nids should be about (I was getting bored with my shooty nid army as well).


I'm viewing it the other way around! Hive guard, dakkarants/fexs, zoans, biovores and T-fexs are all packing great shooting ability. Poisoned, FC, preferred enemy gaunts have little problem in finishing off other problem units.

Additionally, nidzilla is definately alive and well. It was never about the MCs, but about the number of t6, good save wounds that can be plonked on the table. Hive guard give 6 t6 wounds for 150pts. Tervigons give 6 t6 wounds for 160+pts. Trygons for 200pts+.


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Dessel_Ordo said:


> I could see a Termy Librararian with MoTA & SS in a Land Raider (crusader of redeemer) with a bunch of assault termies taking 1 by turn 2 or 3 if you kamikaze dived them in, if the termies were TH/SS and the nid player particularly foolish they could plausibly (not likely or reliably) dual assault and kill two. (Force Weapon lucking out and instant deathing one, hammers beating down the other). You would need copious ammounts of supporting fire to clear the path, and the unit would be dead the turn after they got their kills, but its doable with luck.
> 
> I think the new awful spam list is gonna be tunnelzilla really, the potential damage the mawlock can cause for its points is crazy. so maybe Tyrant, stealers for troops a Trygon and 2 Mawlocks for HS, Pyrovores or Hivguard in elites and fill it out with gaunts? (really rough guesswork there, but its the basic skeleton I'd shoot for were I to build a 'nid army for competitiveness)


In an ideal world yes, you could kill 2 in a turn multi assaulting from a LR with libby and TH/SS though in practice I doubt you could charge either: since they make lots of gaunts Ive never seen them not ringed by gaunts in any game Ive watched them in (I should playtest my own on thursday). You would probably need to get a bit lucky (and be able to disembark within 6") and then use an enourmous volume of fire to kill the 10-20 gaunts that will be in your way (could be far far higher if you want to multi assault).. even worse is that your LR could well be giving them a cover save (or a hidden unit of venomthropes doing so), making the gaunts even harder to kill...

Yes, I would agree with Larx that rune priests will be laughing at tervigon heavy lists... the psychic test might only be a 50-50 if within range to JotWW mulitple tervigons but it'll still be well worth it.


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

I don't think that JotWW will work on anything with SitW, since both have a 12" range, and the Priest has Ld8-9, which sucks badly if you have to roll with three dice. And they aren't as likely to survive multiple PotW attacks, since you'd have to be the luckiest bastard to roll that 5+ inv save and again.

In other news, I was thinking about a list thats partially/totally inside snot pods, in a rather SW-ish fashion. Mainly Warriors, Hive Tyrants, Zoanthropes and Carnifexes. How would that work?


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Pretty sure JotWW is 18" range (possible 24" but I dont think so), and a rune priest is Ld10 basic... sure deathleaper can nerf this but taking a 140pt model to reduce the effectiveness of 1 100pt character semes a little iffy (especially when SW can have 4 of them in an army).

SitW knocks Ld10 psy tests down to 50%, so the odds of killing tervigons with it is pretty high, especiall yif you can hit multiples with the same shot (of just use it from outside SitW range).
Perils arent too bad at about 1in7 for 3 dice... only worked it out quickly but that sounds about right going on miscast/irresistable requency for WFB magic on 3 dice.


----------



## Larx (May 17, 2009)

JoTWW It is 24 inch bee line which is possible at the right angle to encompass multiple models and those mc that have initiative one. It is possible to be out of the range of SitW and not have to roll 3d6.


----------

