# Are High Elf Spearmen Worth It?



## Android089 (Apr 21, 2009)

Hello
I'm new to Fantisy and I really like the High Elves. I bought a battle set and it comes with 16 spearmen (or Sea Guard) and 3 people at the store said just to scrap the Spearmen totaly.
Are they actually good or are the other guys right?
And what about the Sea Guard?


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

there not that bad, the people who said scrap them are probably just the kind who care more about being competitive instead of being competent, there just like what any other spearmen unit should be good at, holding the line, but unlike other armies they actually can do it to some successful degree since they strike first.

sea guard the same applies, they just get a few shots beforehand, and can act like bowmen before reforming to receive a charge the turn before.

although 20 is gonna be better than 16


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

High Elf Spearmen are absolutely the backbone of a High Elf army. In my opinion, you can make a High Elf army that draws nothing from the Special Units section and be VERY powerful. I would agree with Stella that Sea Guard are better than regular Spearmen, though, and I'd bring them in favor of regular spearmen if you have the points to do it.

If you set your army up around units of 12 archers, units of 20 Seaguard, mages and repeater bolt throwers, you can have a 'gunline' that's actually quite dangerous in combat. What ends up happening is that the archers and the bolt throwers chew on enemy units' rank bonuses, and by the time the enemy units charge, they get shot one more time by the Stand and Shoot reaction from the Sea Guard, and then get stuck with 16 (that's one apiece plus one for the unit champion) attacks before they get a chance to strike. Some armies can take the shooting casualties on the way in, but they can't stand up to that volume of attacks, while those that can take the High Elves in combat (that'd be things like daemons, warriors of Chaos, Saurus Warriors, stuff like that) can't necessarily take the shooting casualties you're going to inflict before they get there.

Consider this as an example:

You're set up against a Warriors of Chaos army. The units of 15 Warriors are deployed 12'' in, and your bolt throwers and archers are on hills, so line of sight isn't an issue here. The spearmen/seaguard are set up on the 12'' line between the archer units and the warriors.

So, you have two shooting turns, assuming you don't move (and shouldn't) before you're in combat. Each unit of archers fires 12 shots since they're on a hill (and thus a second rank can fire), at long range half of those hit (6) and two of those wound. The Warriors have a 3+ armor save, so odds are you won't get one, but if you do, that eliminates a rank bonus, which is vital later on. You've probably got several units of archers, so just be sure to pepper the units as they come in. Then, your bolt throwers can chew on the enemy units. If you hit, you're going to get three models, most likely, and bolt throwers ignore armor saves with their standard bolt. Against other armies, the rapid fire option is better, but against Warriors, the single bolt does more damage since it ignores armor. Between four bolt throwers, that's going to bring units down to a very managable size.

So now, combat. The Warriors, which should be depleted down to a unit of maybe 7 or 8 models by the time they get there, charge. You go first with 16 attacks, hitting with eight and wounding with three. The Warriors should lose one model. Then, the Warriors hit you back with nine attacks back (two apiece minus one for the dead model, plus one for the unit champion), of which six hit and four wound. You'll probably lose three Elves, but that's fine. Now, we count up combat resolution. The Warriors caused 3 wounds, and have a standard, for a total score of 4. The Spearmen had three ranks after the first (+3), have a standard (+1), outnumber the opponent (+1) and caused a wound (+1), for a total score of 6. The Warriors lose by two. Despite a generally high leadership in the Warriors of Chaos army, they're probably going to hoof it at -2, since that'll put them at Leadership 6 unless there's a character around. Even then, from a 9, that'd be Ld7, so there's still even odds of them breaking. 

And if your spearmen do lose combat, that's fine-- ideally, you've deployed in such a way that whatever does break through gets shot up by close range fire right when it does.

Another neat trick is to just sit a Dragon Mage down in the center of your army, and sling fire spells and be a terror-causing unit with a large base. Anything that does get close ends up taking a terror check, and if they fail, that just gives you another round of shooting. If they don't, there's a dragon close by that needs to be dealt with. The base size on the dragon is large enough that it can actually provide pretty good coverage for the spearmen and archers, so some armies will turn around when they get into charge range after all that shooting, to boot.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Couldnt disagree more... HE spearmen are almost worthless, and LSG are worse.
I really dont know of any other HE player who rates LSG apart from beginners who think they are shiny to have both a bow and a spear.

Spearmen are ok against other elves but are essentially a 'blocker' unit (you scare off the things too weak to charge you)... the only things that will charge them will be quite confident that they'll beat them, things like DE units without hag graef might well fera the spearmen but they'll just avoid them with their elves and throw in a hydra instead.
LSG are expensive and almost totally ineffective. They are identical in combat as normal spearmen (assuming you gave them shields) and are worse at shooting then normal archers (only bows not longbows)... the result of this is that even against the slowest enemy they'll be lucky to get 2 rounds of shooting off at long range plus a stand and shoot with the front rank or 2- I dont think TSOH gace a fair example above: say 20 LSG are on a hill in 2 ranks (ideal location) against 15 WoC warriors. LSG get to shoot twice at long range but have to reform when the enemy gets to close range, then they get a stand & shoot reaction. The enemy lose on average 3.3 models from that (so down to 12). 16 attacks from LSG cause on average 0.4 wounds so you'll be very lucky to kill any WoC at all. Warriors attack back with 11 attacks, killing 4 elves... elves draw combat purely because they are on a hill (high ground).
So if we set up the most ideal situation for the LSG they draw or possibly get lucky and just edge a win (which WoC are likely to pass)...BUT
- you wont always be able to set up on hills
- it takes a lot of room to start in 10*2 formation (makes it even less likely you are on a hill), if you do you're sure that your set up will be dominated by trying to get the formation you want.. never a good plan
- WoC warriors almost never go anywhere without a hero (even a mage casting spells at the unit wouldnt stop it reaching combat... and a WoC hero would easily kill an extra 3 LSG, meaning chaos will almost certainly win).
- we didnt have any marks on the warriors. MoK or MoN would have meant a much more favourable outcome for chaos.

The real reason I dont like LSG is that it costs about 250-300pts to make a decent LSG unit... but if you spend those points of a unit of specials (phoenix guard, swordmasters, white lions) you'll have a much better unit.
Eg, A unit of 20 LSG is more expensive then a unit of 17 phoenix guard, and yet the pheonix guard are just better in almost all battlefield roles...

HE's power is in their special choices, taking the minimum number of archers to fill the core requirement means you have more points to get useful units. Using large core units means you can easily burn 500pts filling teh min core and then not be able to afford the good units...


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## Ascendant Valor (Jan 3, 2009)

I'm throwing my vote in for The Son of Horus here. I like the concept that he uses to approach the issue the OP brought up: a holistic appreciation of the two armies in question. Tim/Steve, I can place value in what you brought to the thread, but I'll hit that in a bit.

TSoH stated that, in order for High Elven core units to function, they must work in concert as a whole. Focus fire, appropriate positioning, buff/debuff magic, leadership bubbles and hitting power where it's needed. That's general tactics, of course, but the bread and butter is concrete enough - if used appropriately, High Elf Core units can do some damage.

Where I can't agree with TSoH, though, is the Gun Line approach. Specifically, not taking in the rest of the High Elves' gamut of destruction: Shadow Warriors and Ellyrian Reavers. Both provide necessary backup for a High Elf gunline, but won't fit in a core-only army (though TSoH's concept will still stand - as long as they work together, they'll win!).

For Tim/Steve, it is necessary to understand that, mano a mano, High Elven core units suck. They can be easily thrashed by most anything T4 or with a decent armor save. LSG, though expensive, do provide a bit more of a threat in an extra phase of the game, so they are a bit more effective in these circumstances.

At the end of the day, I'm inclined to think that High Elven Core doesn't suck, but they aren't exactly the cream of the crop either. They provide an important role to the army: support. They won't tackle the big stuff, but they'll help the Specials take them on, one way or another.
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As to the OP, it really depends what you're trying to do with your army that will dictate whether or not you should get rid of the Spear Elves or use them.
-Fun, Fluffy army: use them
-Purely competitive, Win At All Costs: lose them (probably)
If you want competitive, Tim/Steve is on the ball here.

I would recommend that you try them out before you start tossing them. I'd have to question why everyone is trying to tell you what to do with _your _army (or your army-to-be). 

Spear Elves provide a decent Rank Bonus and Static Combat Resolution. They dish out a decent number of attacks, albeit at S3, yet they are still T3 with a 5+ Save. They're fragile, but able. If used properly, they'll be fine. I've had my units wipe a unit of Witch Elves, Chaos Marauders, Night Goblins, and even other Spear Elves. But they've been butchered by all the above, too, plus Chaos Warriors, Black Guard, Fanatics, and Dwarf Warriors.

Here are some links to some ForumHammer games I've had with the guys here:
Myself vs. Lord Sven, HE vs. Dwarfs
Myself vs. DaFistofMork, HE vs. Dwarfs
I know I'm blowing my own horn here, but I think I've used my Spear Elves somewhat respectably in either case (although those darn Thanes were just chewing them up and spitting them out! ).


For Lothern Sea Guard, they're fairly strong for what they can do. They're an amalgamation of Archers and Spear Elves. No more debating between your minimum core choices, since you can pay some more points to have the effectiveness of either unit!

I gotta run right now, but I'll fill in the rest of the blanks when I'm back.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Hmm, combining archers and spearmen can be done another way... its called buying 2 units. Getting 20 spearmen and 10 archers is 30pts more expensive the getting 20LSG (assuming command for ranked units and shields)... which to my mind gives the best of both while giving you extra models. Its also far far easier to set up (try setting up 3 units of LSG in a shooting formation, chaging this to a fighting formation and still remaining a coherant battle line... its basically impossible, especially since you'll want all of them on a hill).


I wouldnt disade people form doing a HE 'gunline' either... this is pretty much what I normally do with my army. Though I also use magic as an integral part of my 'shooting'.
I would also suggest that you could just take a unit of 20 archers and use them exactly like LSG: shoot until the enemy is close then reform into 3 ranks and stand and shoot... its a lot cheaper and the difference between having 16 near useless attacks and only having 5 really isnt that many (if you are lucky to only be getting 1 wound what does it matter that you'll be lucky to get 1/3 of a wound?

My own 'gunline' revolves more around sending the enemy into disarray then being prepared for them reaching me: reavers, tiranoc chariots with mages (not popular but Im a fan- US5 chariots with fire mages, if I charge a flank I could quite possible break a unit, especially if I have flaming sword of rhuin), a basic castle of 2 RBTs, 20 archers and a unit of pheonix guard with the banner of sorcery for protection.
Shooting is a nice phase to have but it cant win you the game. Shooting and magic can weaken the enemy enough for the chariots to be able to run through units, or for my supporting DPs to be able to defeat the enemy but sitting back and hoping that by the time the enemy get to use their plans I have weakened them enough for my weak CC units to win just isnt my idea of a plan... Im not really happy unless the enemy's plan doesnt come to fruition.


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## Android089 (Apr 21, 2009)

First of all: thank you everyone for giving me advice.
I plan on playing a 1000 point game with my brother soon. I will be feilding 16 spearmen and if after that battle I'm not happy with them I will change it to Sea Guard and try them.

I'll post my thoughts after the battle


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

If you are going to try to get spearmen working I would suggest you use 20, with full command and a warbanner: a spearmen unit with +5SCR (+possibly outnumber) is a lot better then one with only +3SCR... they will very rarely kill anything so SCR is the absolute most important part of the unit.
- Ive taken this set up a few times, though it usually suffers some aweful fate it is a nasty obstacly for the enemy (dont charge it into a hydra's flank like I did... +7SCR and I still managed to lose).

So long as you keep them away from elite enemy units spearmen with enough SCR do very well... if I was making an army list to beat something like skaven it would certainly be on my list of things to take: models are cheap enough not to care too much about losing and essentially none of their combat units will be able to take 16 S3 hits and still bring enough hurt to overcome your SCR.


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## rob12763 (May 2, 2008)

20-24 is great maximize rank bonus and can fight with more than one rank even when charging.will have a tough time against really tough units but so do most core troops.Sea gaurd are nice because it is like having a bow and spear unit combined.yes I do use spears and bow men.Rob


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## rob12763 (May 2, 2008)

20-24 is great maximize rank bonus and can fight with more than one rank even when charging.will have a tough time against really tough units but so do most core troops.Sea gaurd are nice because it is like having a bow and spear unit combined.yes I do use spears and bow men.Rob


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## forestreverie (Sep 10, 2009)

I have built mine as spearmen, but if I want to use them as Seaguard, I just replace the front rank with archers. This means I don't have to make a commitment, which for a beginner means they can try out both ways and decide which works best for them after a few games.
I personally found that I'd much rather have Archers than Spearmen or Seaguard, and let the specialist combat troops fight the combats.

When I use them, whether as Seaguard or Spearmen, i take them in blocks of 21 (in three ranks of seven) or 28 (in four ranks of 7) which gives maximum attacks against chargin enemies.


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## Amra_the_lion (May 26, 2008)

I built my spearelves as LSG but just use them as spearmen. LSG are generally too expensive, I always start my lists with them, but when i need to cut points they always go back to being just spearelves. 

I love Spearelves vs other armies with human level stats. Empire, skaven, marauders, some undead and others; they are on par or better. Vs the tougher units they are weak (but so are empire/skaven etc...). Always strikes first even helps me out against lightly armored ogres if you have a good frontage against them. If you keep your spearelves away from tougher units, or use them to screen your archers and bolt throwers you will have great luck with them. Every tool has its use, and spearelves are no exception


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Spearmen are not just 'helpful' against ogres... they totally rock. If the ogres dont get bull charge (they shouldnt if you move up to them in your turn) then you should be killing an ogre before they even get to attack... with the lack of SCR, losing a model's attacks and the DCR the elves have just gained the ogres really just havent a hope.. I just avoid spears with my ogres, try to get them in the flank later in the game instead.
Then again HE are the best anti-ogre army (isnt saying much), but if you really want to bring it home just take los of units of 7 swordmasters and watch as the ogres dont manage to kill anything.


Have to say Im liking spearmen more and more... they remain useless against the nastier units but are certainly good enough to hold most enemy units at bay. Dont really match my play style but fun nevertheless.... thats not to say I'll ever change my mind on LSG though.


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## Android089 (Apr 21, 2009)

thanks again for all the posts

I said I was going to play a game with my brother but me being lazy haven't gotten around to it yet.
Soon though (I hope)


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