# Revised opinions on Perturabo after Angel Exterminatus(spoilers)



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Taken me a while to posting this thread even though I was going to ages ago. But yeah, what are peoples thoughts on the IV Legion Primarch, the Lord of Iron, after reading the novel?

Now I know many people have complaints regarding the Iron Warriors, Emperors Children and the Istvaan survivors Legionnaires as well as Fulgrim. But I ask you leave them at the door as it were, let's just talk about Perturabo.

So I guess before reading the novel I had the same thoughts as most people did on him. Moody, humourless, almost petulant and devoid of personality, joining Horus seemingly just to spite Rogal Dorn. Guilliman even seemed to hold this opinion, calling him one dimensional. 

Having read AE though, my opinions on him have completely changed, as have most peoples I imagine, would be rather hard not to. 

Turns out he appears to be a deeply honourable warrior, with some very repressed ideologies and feelings, seemingly due to his disenchantment with the crusade and how himself and his Legion were utilised. Only joining Horus due to his guilt over Olympia and belief that the Imperium would never accept him back after such an act, where as Horus did, though he still erroneously believes Horus to be a honourable and pure warrior, be quite interesting to see his reaction when it's revealed to him just how corrupt Horus is. 

A really very interesting aspect of him to me, was that it seems he is the only Primarch, both loyalist and traitor, who sees the Heresy ending with the Emperors surrender and not his death. He does not seem to hate the Emperor like the other traitors now do(with the exception of Alpharius and Omegon, cause who could ever know what the fuck they're thinking), but sees the Imperium carrying on under Horus leadership, though quite what he expects to happen to the Emperor after his surrender isn't clear.

But my favourite turn, was showing what I suppose could be called a beautiful mind, hidden beneath the layers of his psyche and gruff exterior. He revels in making beautiful and grand objects, schematics and buildings. Having designed Nikea for the purposes of theatre and enjoyment as opposed to a court house. His dream of the perfect Olympia, with architecture and flare that not even Fulgrim could dream of, the perfect city.

Which also leads on to him fully believing the end of the crusade would end in he and his men becoming leaders and almost politicians in a way. Though unlike others who shared that belief, appears to want to embrace that lifestyle willingly and gladly.

In the end I think his character became perhaps even sympathetic than Horus or Magnus, as much as you sympathise with the both of them, their falls are largely due to their own hubris and arrogance. It's easy to see that if Perturabo had just been treated a little differently, handled in a different way or actually engaged in meaningful and deep conversation than he would likely have stayed steadfastly loyal.

Finally, I think he gives possibly one of the most tragic and saddening quotes in the entire series thus far:


_"You don't know the things I dream," said Perturabo. "No one does, no one ever cared enough to find out."_


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

It was going alright until I got to the part when Mcneil wrote; don't worry guys, don't mistake me being given the hammer that caused me to fall to chaos, it was something else, it certainly definately was not the giving of the hammer, because, look see, I had already blown shit up and nuked the drop site on "five", man, but when a load of guys started rebelling on my homeworld and believing in shitty religion (cos lorgar is a twat see), horus believed in me, and gave me a man hug, a cuppa tea strong enough for the spoon to stick upright in it, and sent me to stores to request a pair of adult male shoulders, telling me to give them a slap; that was what turned me to chaos.

It was going fine until that point; it came across as the annoying bit when you are reading an article and the editor has a witticism leap the grand canyon wide chasm between his two brain cells, and feels be absolutely must "inject" it into the story. Apart from, it isn't particularly funny, and is essentially saying "despite my shit writing being unable to make it apparent, in prosaic form, i'll leave a little info dump here.

I found so little to like about AE that I rate it with Battle for the Abyss, Fulgrim, Mechanicum and Outcast Dead. I will admit that it has got to a stage where I seriously doubt whether to pick up any mcneill book, and will not trust reviewers one little bit; they cannot be relied upon, are utterly unobjective in their opinions, and quite frankly, his writing is of the same quality it was at the same time as Comedy Wolves, God-rek and Feeler, it hasn't improved, and yet Bill King has massively improved, and other books written back in the day hold the test of time so much better; zavant, gothic war, brunner. I will not lie that I think that CS Goto can write a better story, despite factual "inconsistencies".


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> _"You don't know the things I dream," said Perturabo. "No one does, no one ever cared enough to find out."_


seems to be quite the emotional pansy, would be a great friend of the cry-baby salamanders


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Vaz said:


> his writing is of the same quality it was at the same time as Comedy Wolves, God-rek and Feeler, it hasn't improved, and yet Bill King has massively improved, and other books written back in the day hold the test of time so much better; zavant, gothic war, brunner. I will not lie that I think that CS Goto can write a better story, despite factual "inconsistencies".


Vaz, I'm snooping around for my next WH40K book and would be interested to know your top 5-10 titles. I haven't read AE yet, but did read most of the HH novels up to Battle for the Abyss (was somewhat disappointed in that one too).

Angel of Blood, I'd be interested in what you think as well.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Top 10;

1; Know No Fear
2; Prince of Crows
3; The First Heretic
4; Horus Rising
5; Brotherhood of the Storm
6; Savage Weapons
7; The Dark King
8; Aurelian
9; Thousand Sons (Mcneil his most un-mcneil like to date).
10; Fear to Tread


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## warsmith7752 (Sep 12, 2009)

My opinion hasn't changed at all, the post-heresey iron warrior series have a subtle message in them about creativity. The iron warriors build their sieges like an artist would his paintings. 

However I'm biased because iron warriors are my favourite legion and Perturabo has always been my favourite individual in the 40k univers


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Vaz, I'm snooping around for my next WH40K book and would be interested to know your top 5-10 titles. I haven't read AE yet, but did read most of the HH novels up to Battle for the Abyss (was somewhat disappointed in that one too).
> 
> Angel of Blood, I'd be interested in what you think as well.



1: Legion
: Prospero Burns
: Know No Fear
: Gaunts Ghosts series
: Eisenhorn and Ravenor
: Night Lords first claw series
: Prince of Crows
: Savage Weapons
: The First Heretic
: Helsreach and Battle for the Fang of the Space Marine Battle series.

Yeah I genuinely can't pick a number one out of any of them. They are what I would consider to be the very best the Black Library has to offer. And yeah, all a combination of Abnett and ADB, with one by Chris Wraight in there too.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Thank you both gentlemen (I assume)!


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Yup. Check your inbox, you'll see


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I actually loved _Fulgrim_ to be honest with you.

As far as Perturabo goes, I thought he was really the only contribution to the Heresy within the novel. In my book review I rated it an 8/10, and it was only because I thought Perturabo was written so well.

A few things to touch upon was his Imperial Dream, which according to Fulgrim was a lot bigger and beautiful than Guilliman's dream. It gets Heresy fans wondering if Perturabo should have been the real Guilliman during the Great Crusade and allowed to do his own agenda instead of being used as what the Emperor would call "his hammer," along with garrisoning worlds. 

I think it shows that the Emperor really fucked up with Perturabo. In a way Perturabo was the Emperor's real Guilliman, as Perturabo was loyal until he no longer had that choice. Guilliman appears to be a schemer in the Heresy with his own agenda and Imperial Ideology. 

Another interesting thing is that Perturabo specifically mentions the Lion, Dorn, Khan, as primarchs that he hated because they took all his glory. The picture where a Iron Warrior Apothecary is seen taking care of his dead brother along with a few grim Iron Warriors, while the Imperial Fists seized the glory for themselves by placing their banner on the fortress; really showed how the Iron Warriors were treated. The Iron Warriors were used to destroy the heart's of empires and did not win any of the glory.

I think this novel also speaks about both the Lion and Dorn as being very arrogant and shameless with how they treated Perturabo and his legion. I remember in _Lightning Tower_ (the audio) Dorn mentions that his disputes with Perturabo were "comical." At first I thought that may have been true, but in a sense, Dorn really thoughtless of other Primarchs. I liked the part where Perturabo says that it is him that Dorn is really afraid of. I think this goes back to the _Lightning Tower_ because I believe they were both made by McNeill, where Dorn asks himself what or who he was afraid of. I believe Dorn is actually afraid of Perturabo. Even though he mentions Kurze, I think Kurze made him realize that he isn't invincible. I also think the novel shows that Perturabo has almost a sixth sense in sensing other people's talents and feelings. And something tells me that Perturabo can read Dorn from miles away.

Then we have the Lion... this just goes to show you that the Lion really is a shameless idiot. Perturabo clearly states how the Lion used him in the past and took away all his glory. Then the Lion asks for help from the brother whom he basically stabbed in the back, not to mention also the most distant. He gives him the siege weapons and thinks everything will go smoothly from there. I think its really a revaluating tool for the Lion's fans.

I thought the novel really did well in portraying Perturabo and as I stated in my book review I think the only other primarch that may have been written this well is probably Horus in the first novel, _Horus Rising._


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I'll try to do a top ten. But I'm not going to lie, I have become more appreciative of the old novels.

1) Horus Rising
2) Fulgrim
3) The First Heretic
4) Prospero Burns
5) A Thousand Sons
6) Galaxy in Flames
7) Descent of Angels
8) Mechanicum
9) Fallen Angels
10) Raven's Flight


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## sadLor (Jan 18, 2012)

I wasn't the biggest fan of the book but I did enjoy how Perturabo was portrayed in the book. 

He reminds me of Lorgar in the First Heretic. Both characters forced into roles by circumstances beyond them. And like the above post said, I enjoyed the part about Perturabo's imperial dream... what a terrible waste of potential.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

The evolving narrative about how un-unified the primarchs were does highlight a very real world issue of any organization or political body. The ability to navigate the interpersonal or make decisions in light of the political context is a skill/ability in itself, regardless of talents/vision/skills/abilities that led that person into the situation. Among the primarchs, you have those with mind-blowing personal raw talents like Perterabo (siege warfare), Magnus (academic/psyker), Russ/Angron (personal violence), Alpharius/Omegon (counterintelligence), Ferrus Manus (technology/making)... these are the beings with individual abilities taken to another plane... the 'artwork' comment about Perterabo's siegecraft.

On the other hand, there are an entire group of primarchs that don't seem to have any particular 'skill' per se outside of being, well, primarchs with all the dressing and side dishes that come along with it (is it Thanksgiving yet?)... what this second group does seem to share are more innate political instincts allowing them to grab the center stage in the evolving Imperium during the Great Crusade. I would include primarchs in this group like Horus, Guillaumin, Dorn, Fulgrim, the Lion, possibly Lorgar (but not really). These really are executives not just within their own sphere of influence (Legion, quasi-empire, homeworld, etc.), but come to embody power across Imperial jurisdiction and scheme for the Emperor's favor, not just expect that he'll notice how cool they are by the incredible things they do or how many worlds they convert.

I've often wondered if you have to be a dickhead to suceed as an executive or does the position make you into one? I think it's a little bit of both, or perhaps better stated that it helps if you have some of those dickhead instincts to begin with, for when you're climbing the ladder. Which is why we're on a WH40K message board instead of in a board room making bundles of money :laugh:

While the writing is sometimes ham-fisted in the HH novels, the overall story really does illustrate what comes across as interpersonal backstabbing from a personal perspective, but in essence is simply the great political power game on a galactic scale. That's one of the elements that keeps me so engaged in the HH series outside of the WH40K sci-fi setting.

Sorry for the long post, but this thread has sparked some interesting insights into the series for me.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Here's the thing, I didn't think Perturabo's attack on Olympia is inconsistent with his overall depiction.

To me, a central clue as to Perturabo's choices and mindset is the revelation that - _from day one_ - he was able to see the Eye of Terror *at all times.* Even when no one else could. In my eyes, that makes it obvious that Perturabo has always been fighting the influence of Chaos.

I think the author's intent was for this fundamental factor to have been exarcebated by (as much as) two centuries of warfare. Compounding this fact, Perturabo's particular talents "relegated" him to the most brutal kind of warfare. Compounding this fact _yet more,_ Perturabo absolutely resented having his particular talents and inclinations twisted from _creating _to _tearing down._ The straw that broke the camel's back, of course, was that not only was he forced to corrupt his aspirations to "specialize" in the most unwanted sort of warfare... he also felt he was broadly underestimated as a result, and that he and his sons were denied recognition for their deeds.

So, again, add all of the above up and then throw in Chaos corruption from the day of genesis to boot. As such, the culling of Olympia was not just a petty, horrific extermination. What really speaks to Perturabo's character, though, was that he did and then he regretted it. He knew he had done wrong. He was corrupted enough, though, to be swayed by Horus' conciliatory words.

Now, if you still want to argue about disparities in character, I think a more valid premise would be the character of Perturabo's _Legion._ There seem to be a great deal of individuals within his ranks that, if not dishonorable themselves, certainly seem to _expect_ dishonorable acts on the parts of their "brothers". That speaks volumes to me, and doesn't match up well with the ethos their primarch seems to uphold.



ckcrawford said:


> I think this novel also speaks about both the Lion and Dorn as being very arrogant and shameless with how they treated Perturabo and his legion.
> ...
> Then we have the Lion... this just goes to show you that the Lion really is a shameless idiot. Perturabo clearly states how the Lion used him in the past and took away all his glory. Then the Lion asks for help from the brother whom he basically stabbed in the back, ...


Whoa, whoa. You're citing Fulgrim, who was trying to manipulate Perturabo throughout the novel, during a conversation in a dream-scape that they entered after the former breather a hallucinogenic substance into the other. How is that in any way objective?



> I think its really a revaluating tool for the Lion's fans.


I would say you're just making quite a reach, is all. :wink:

Cheers!


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Given how Perturabo is portrayed, why did he finally go Chaos at the Iron Cage? It strikes me that he did so, not because he's genuinely attracted to Chaos like the other Traitors were, but because he wants what they have. He always wants things for the sole reason that others have them and he doesn't. He hangs around Medrengard angry at the universe because he found out what a lousy deal being a slave to Chaos really is. Oops!

Dorn and Guilliman aren't glory hounds, but he perceives that they are because that's what he wants (aka psychological projection).


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Whoa, whoa. You're citing Fulgrim, who was trying to manipulate Perturabo throughout the novel, during a conversation in a dream-scape that they entered after the former breather a hallucinogenic substance into the other. How is that in any way objective?
> 
> 
> I would say you're just making quite a reach, is all. :wink:
> ...


I don't think I was referring to his speech with Perturabo. I think I was referring to the scene Perturabo was thinking to himself. I know the Khan and a couple primarchs were mentioned a couple times with reference to them taking advantage of Perturabo.

I think Fulgrim only mentioned the Khan and Dorn. Either way, you could also look at it as Chaos manipulating the _truth._ 

I know your a fan of the loyalist chapters and regard the Lion as noble. Often people who think highly of themselves (The Lion) don't understand or do not see when they offend or take advantage of someone else. In that sense, he can still be regarded as noble. 

I don't think its that much of a stretch. It doesn't stretch like this. :training:


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