# To those who have read Prospero Burns



## Freakytah (Nov 20, 2009)

I have yet to truly dislike any of the HH series so far (or any of the many 40k books I've read for that matter), but I seem to be having troubles slogging through this one. I'm 150 or so pages in, and I still can't sit down for over 15 minutes and read without getting bored. I'm not particularly attached to the Space Wolves, but I have to admit I haven't previously read a heck of a lot about them before I started.

Long story short, is this story going to pick up at some point? I've never not finished a 40k novel but I'm awfully close with this one! Someone please tell me it gets better soon!


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

In my opinion in was the best book of the Horus Heresy, along with *Legion* and *Horus Rising*.

It took me about an hour of listening before I really got into it, but it turned into a really good book imo.


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## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

Its among greatest of HH books, gets little time to understand whats going on but it has some real mystery behind it and it showed Space Wolves in new light. It doesnt go so straightline in storywise that many other BL books do, but it has still a great storyline.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

I also really liked the book, battle of the fang is a good follow up, these books changed my perspective of the SW, before these books they were space vikings, after the books I actually started liking them.


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## Babu Dhakal (Jan 10, 2012)

Simple answer is no. If you don't like the opening 3 chapters you won't like the book at all and are in exactly the same position I was. I, however, forced myself to read it through and by the end was hugely fed up. Ok, I geddit, they are vikings!! Sheesh! On the boredom scale this made it over 9000 for me. -_- 

IIRC the final 4 chapters are where the action is, which lets face it, is 75% of what we want from a HH novel. The other 25% being previously unknown facts/details about the Primarchs and Legion history.


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## Fire Tempered (Dec 16, 2010)

It's pretty good book, not maybe best but certainly among top,much better than most of HH novels (Outcast dead and Deliverance lost, I'm looking at you).


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## Babu Dhakal (Jan 10, 2012)

Fire Tempered said:


> It's pretty good book, not maybe best but certainly among top,much better than most of HH novels (Outcast dead and Deliverance lost, I'm looking at you).


I was not impressed with either of the above, but would not put them in the same bracket as PB. And all three well above BftA.


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## Fire Tempered (Dec 16, 2010)

There are worse that those two for sure, I just expected more from them, and they were released same year as Prospero, so I needed to mention them.

One thing is certain, people usually either hate or really like Prospero Burns. I'm quite fond of it, but it's not among my top 3 HH novels.


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## Babu Dhakal (Jan 10, 2012)

Fire Tempered said:


> Though one thing is certain, people usually either hate or really like Prospero Burns. I'm quite fond of it, but it's not among my top 3 HH novels.


I agree with you there. I've seen lots of split opinions regarding PB. The marmite offering of the Black Library. 

I believe it comes down to expectations. It wasn't the attack on Prospero from the Space Puppies perspective that I had imagined it to be when I picked it up from the shelf. Therefore I hated it. Had I realised just where DA was going to be coming from before I opened the cover I may have a better appreciation for it.


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## Fire Tempered (Dec 16, 2010)

I believe you 're right. Most problems come from people's expectations. Luckily, I did read few reviews on this board before reading Prospero, so I knew what to expect. 

It was best example of BL's false marketing, untill Legion of the damned 

Still, I find that another description of battle was not needed, and I quite liked the outsider perspective the book is written from, it kinda reminds me of 13th warrior


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

_Prospero Burns_ is a different taste of novel. I know many people who disliked the novel. 

In my opinion, I loved the damn thing. I thought it was genius. Dan Abnett, was able to write a novel on the Wolves of Fenris without losing their mystery. I'm trying to remember the other novels written in the Wolves point of view, and they just seem very cheesy. I think the novel, in the eyes of a rembrancer gave the reader the idea that wovles were completely different beings. Even compared to normal astartes.


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## Fire Tempered (Dec 16, 2010)

Lone Wolves, graphic novel BL will republish again soon, is also pretty good, and from outsider's point of view. No wonder, Abnett wrote it


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

How the hell was _Legion of the Damned_ false marketing? (Did you read the blurb on the back?)

Also, PB's one of the HH's greatest. Except for the first 50 pages or so. They were tediously drawn out and could have been condensed without losing what they were aiming to achieve, it could've meant 20-30 extra pages on the more interesting stuff. Nevertheless: it's a fine book, you just need to...disavow yourself of your expectations. It's not 'the other half' of ATS, it's a 'second book in a loose trilogy' along with _Battle of the Fang_.


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## Freakytah (Nov 20, 2009)

Thanks for all the replies, I've generally liked the books that I'd seen negative reviews about (Descent of Angels, Legion, etc...) so I half expected to like this one as well. I sometimes see people complain about the remembrancer perspective in these stores but I've generally liked it.

Maybe I just can't get into the Norse themed mythology around the Wolves. I'm gonna have to slog through it regardless though, or I'll always wonder what happens!


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

http://thefoundingfields.com/2011/12/prospero-burns-by-dan-abnett-book-review-djinn24/

Purely my opinion.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

I appreciated the craft put into the actual story but I never could get into enjoying it. It was very difficult to finish and If I did have a rule that I will always finish a book I start...I wouldn't.


Doc


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

IMO one of the best books of the series. Thought it was utterly brilliant and a nice step away from bolter porn seen in other novels.

The 'I think its bad because it wasn't what I was expecting' argument really annoys me. Ok you can feel let down by the fact that it wasn't as advertised(though I disagree on that, more in abit), but how does that stop the book itself from being good, just get over the fact that it wasn't what you thought it would be and enjoy the book.

Next point, to all the 'Oh noes! It didn't really show Prospero at all!!) people. The book was about the events that led up to the Burning and how it came to be. A Thousand Sons covered the battle perfectly.

Again, one of my favourite books.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> IMO one of the best books of the series. Thought it was utterly brilliant and a nice step away from bolter porn seen in other novels.
> 
> The 'I think its bad because it wasn't what I was expecting' argument really annoys me. Ok you can feel let down by the fact that it wasn't as advertised(though I disagree on that, more in abit), but how does that stop the book itself from being good, just get over the fact that it wasn't what you thought it would be and enjoy the book.
> 
> ...


Besides the liking point...lol I agree with all your points but one."'I think its bad because it wasn't what I was expecting' " The reason being is that most people at least once in their lives buy a book with a certain expectation and are let down causing them to not like the book. Now I my case I can appreciate the wonderful writing and crafting of the story but I still didn't really enjoy it. I enjoyed the info I got out of it but it just wasn't a fun read for me.


Doc


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Babu Dhakal said:


> Simple answer is no. If you don't like the opening 3 chapters you won't like the book at all


As a recommendation, this is complete bullshit.

Prospero Burns is a book that is like a machine. Cogs turning. It may be interpreted as ''boring'' at first, but *everything* is geared towards the finale. The Space Wolves, the Thousand Sons, Horus, Casper and his dreams.

Besides, it's also brilliant literature. It may not be as exiting as A Thousand Sons, but the quality of prose and characterisation is better, at least for me and many others.

The only complaint I've _ever_ heard that is meaningful and, frankly valid, was that by Euphrati. I may dig it out at some point. A well thought out piece that explored concepts most forget and didn't unnecessarily criticise Abnett.

Angel of Blood knows his shit.

Rofl at that shite motivational poster that can't even get the catchphrase correct. Who made that crap?


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## Babu Dhakal (Jan 10, 2012)

*Easy Tiger*



bobss said:


> As a recommendation, this is complete bullshit.


Recommendation is based on opinion. That was mine. Sorry that _you_ don't argee but I am not going to lose any sleep over the fact.



bobss said:


> Besides, it's also brilliant literature. It may not be as exiting as A Thousand Sons, but the quality of prose and characterisation is better, at least for me and many others.


Great writing alone, does not, a good story, make.



DJINN24 said:


> On one side of the coin it was a really well written book, something you would expect Dan Abnett to put out. The character development was well done, you really got to know the narrator and some of the other  people that were around him. You do get some insight into the strategic mind of the Wolf King and his sons; seeing them as the strategists that they are, instead of the mindless killers other see them as. The downside is the story focuses on Kasper too much, cluttering the overall plotline with flashback after flashback that repeat the same information. At the end of the book they are finally tied together and you do understand why they were put into the book. My honest feelings is they could have been cut down as they really do bog down the momentum of the story. Honestly you could probably cut away 10 to 15% of this book and not miss out on much, if any at all.


This is how I would criticise the book, which is in and of itself is a contradictory. I consider that the characterisation of the Wolves from a 3rd party perspective was, quite frankly, excellent. I cannot criticise Abnett for his writing skills either. What I feel let the book down was, again in my own opinion, was the unnecessary length at which Kasper's history was grafted into the story. I didn't _want_ bolter porn. I don't need it to enjoy a story. I just found that the focus was on him rather _too_ much. Some may posture that this may have been added to keep some ambiguity surrounding the Wolves, rather than than it all being about them and revealing every single secret in one novel, but for me it detracted from the reading experience. 

I am glad you enjoyed it and that others did to. I simply did not enjoy it as much as I had hoped to.

@ those complaining about expectations. What? You are never disappointed, by anything?


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

bobss said:


> As a recommendation, this is complete bullshit.


I concur in sentiment, but mainly for different reasons. The first 50 pages should be ignored when considering whether you want to continue with the story. Really, they're a dropped ball and, to agree with Babu: _they are disappointing_. Not because they failed to meet my expectations, but because they went on and on and on at length about something that itself wasn't that well handled. The tribes on Fenris were a valiant effort...but it really fell flat, for me. And could/should have been reduced in size. (Contrast it to _Wulfrik_'s take on fantasy Vikings as a backdrop for a story.)

Anyway. Ignore the first fifty pages, they really do not represent the book at all. The next 50 are symptomatic of large parts, but the first 50 should be disregarded.

That said, if you don't enjoy the 'flashback' bits (and can grasp that they should be happening between 'really interesting contemporary bits' that are more relevant to what's happening in the flashback, as happens later in the book, but not at the beginning) generally...yeah, they're pretty integral in their use (and, IMO, are used _really_ well...except in the first 50 pages).


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## Freakytah (Nov 20, 2009)

Babu Dhakal said:


> This is how I would criticise the book, which is in and of itself is a contradictory. I consider that the characterisation of the Wolves from a 3rd party perspective was, quite frankly, excellent. I cannot criticise Abnett for his writing skills either. What I feel let the book down was, again in my own opinion, was the unnecessary length at which Kasper's history was grafted into the story. I didn't _want_ bolter porn. I don't need it to enjoy a story. I just found that the focus was on him rather _too_ much. Some may posture that this may have been added to keep some ambiguity surrounding the Wolves, rather than than it all being about them and revealing every single secret in one novel, but for me it detracted from the reading experience.


That's pretty much my thoughts so far with the book. I always enjoy Abnett's writing, but I don't find myself all that interested in Kasper's back story so far. I did just finish the attacks of the Quietude planet, and I thoroughly enjoyed the stories between Kasper and Longfang. It was probably the highlight of the book for me up to this point.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

bobss said:


> Rofl at that shite motivational poster that can't even get the catchphrase correct. Who made that crap?


I made the poster, what exactly is incorrect about the catchphrase?


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

It's actually "Wet-leopard growl".

For something that's repeated twelve times, it's somewhat amusing to mock it and get it wrong. (Though I didn't find it annoying. Odd, but not annoying.)


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## Freakytah (Nov 20, 2009)

Yeah I think the "wet-leopard" references were strange, considering they're wolves and not cats...once or twice and I probably wouldn't have thought it stood out so much


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## Atyaman (Feb 18, 2011)

Most of them are wet leopard-growls, but there are snarls and purrs too


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Xisor said:


> It's actually "Wet-leopard growl".
> 
> For something that's repeated twelve times, it's somewhat amusing to mock it and get it wrong. (Though I didn't find it annoying. Odd, but not annoying.)


There is plenty of use of Snarl as well.


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

Hmm, fair point. Though I don't recall it being anywhere near as often as growl. "Dry-panther howl" would work well as parody, I guess.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

I used snarl because it shares the letter with Sylvester's catch phrase. Ploss and I double checked it and snarl is in there a fair number as well. One day we will do a doc search and see overall how many Wewt-Leopards appear in the book.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

And then on another day you'll get over such a ridiculous criticism of a great book.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Reviews are opinions AoB, a majority of the issues people have with the book have been the exact same thing. Excessive flashbacks, areas where the book seems to drag, and the art, title and even the description text on BL leading you to believe you where getting something else when you only get a small amount of what they say you are going to get. I really wish there was more Wolf King in the book and interaction with him. That would have made me really happy, instead I get Kasper trying to turn around and see behind him for the 5th, 6th, 8th, and 12th time...


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

djinn24 said:


> the art, title and even the description text on BL leading you to believe you where getting something else when you only get a small amount of what they say you are going to get.


I don't understand how people get upset so monumentally over titles and artwork. I get that "Don't judge a book by its cover!" is a nice pithy phrase, but it speaks some sense too: the title & cover are, at the end of the day, eye-catching things which 'hold'/'denote' the book. 

The description text, however, is something to be seriously upset over!

_Prospero Burns_ and _Descent of Angels_ are perhaps amongst the worst (that I've seen) for that particular act of criminal negligence.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed, the cover art criticism is some of the worst. And I understand if people don't like Kaspers flashbacks or wanted to see more Wolf King, but the 'wet-leopard growl' criticism annoys me to no fucking end, it's so fucking nitpicky it's untrue.


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## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

Xisor said:


> I don't understand how people get upset so monumentally over titles and artwork. I get that "Don't judge a book by its cover!" is a nice pithy phrase, but it speaks some sense too: the title & cover are, at the end of the day, eye-catching things which 'hold'/'denote' the book.
> 
> The description text, however, is something to be seriously upset over!
> 
> _Prospero Burns_ and _Descent of Angels_ are perhaps amongst the worst (that I've seen) for that particular act of criminal negligence.


Seems only BL books makes people assume things on cover or by its book title. This is just extremely weak response, just go check on many other book covers or titles. Many books dont hardly have cover at all and they sell and quite many have meaningless book title too. People take covers and book titles here way too seriously.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> Indeed, the cover art criticism is some of the worst. And I understand if people don't like Kaspers flashbacks or wanted to see more Wolf King, but the 'wet-leopard growl' criticism annoys me to no fucking end, it's so fucking nitpicky it's untrue.


You realize that the de-motivational poster was just a joke? When I was reading the book and read one of the many wet leopard statements a picture of Sylvester popped into my head so we asked someone to do the art for us. Ploss and I have wondered and have been meaning to ask Dan exactly how he knows what a wet leopard sounds like though.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well you may say it's a joke, but theres plenty of people who point it out as genuine reason they thought the book was bad.



Roninman said:


> Seems only BL books makes people assume things on cover or by its book title. This is just extremely weak response, just go check on many other book covers or titles. Many books dont hardly have cover at all and they sell and quite many have meaningless book title too. People take covers and book titles here way too seriously.


Completely agree.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Roninman said:


> Seems only BL books makes people assume things on cover or by its book title. This is just extremely weak response, just go check on many other book covers or titles. Many books dont hardly have cover at all and they sell and quite many have meaningless book title too. People take covers and book titles here way too seriously.


When your franchise/IP centers primarily around a universe where bloodshed and walking giants born to kill is the norm, it's *impossible* not to place so much emphasis on the book cover. 

You simply cannot compare a novel by stephen king about some abstract concept of human behavior to a warhammer40k novel.



djinn24 said:


> You realize that the de-motivational poster was just a joke? When I was reading the book and read one of the many wet leopard statements a picture of Sylvester popped into my head so we asked someone to do the art for us. Ploss and I have wondered and have been meaning to ask Dan exactly how he knows what a wet leopard sounds like though.












The leopard growl sounds 'throatier' if that's a word, heavier and I don't know how else to describe it. It feels more menacing than a wolf's growl, the latter still something that could inspire fear but it takes longer (dunno if that makes sense). The Space wolf/Primarch emitting a wolf's growl would make him sound too _animalistic _I think (again, it's hard for me to explain. Phoebus should step in here >.< )


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Despite their name tag (i.e. Space Wolves) the noise of a wolf can't easily be made by a Space Marine. Their chests are beefed up and I recall when speaking of the audio dramas Jim Swallow said that the various marines are given different voices for character, but they are not an accurate representation of what a Space Marine would sound like. Their voices would all be deeper, heavier, booming and similar sounding.

The growl of a big cat is a more realistic 'roar' than the howl or snarl of a wolf.

All that being said it is only a minor point.


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

Man, I don't even remember reading "wet leopard growl" once... maybe when I re-read that book I'll watch out for it 

Anyway, teh book was ok, not really what I expected (as many have already said). I really wish the HH series would get back on track and move the story forward. We've got 7 years to go and we've only just found out what happened to the Raven Guard. 

Rev


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> When your franchise/IP centers primarily around a universe where bloodshed and walking giants born to kill is the norm, it's *impossible* not to place so much emphasis on the book cover.
> 
> You simply cannot compare a novel by stephen king about some abstract concept of human behavior to a warhammer40k novel.


Bollocks you can't. 

Impossible not to place emphasis on the book cover?

Death Guard & Fists vs Greater Daemons?
Book about the stylised gauntlet icon
An eye in a triangle motif with extra line
Erm, thing?
Hand with line imitating a gun
Horus & Fulgrim at a banister
Salamanders with Titan backdrop
Some blokes in front of some astonishingly low starships

Yep, I remember all of those stories matching their covers and highly literal titles exceptionally well. 

I mean, FFS, the Eisenstein is barely in _Flight of the Eisenstein_ for...a third of the book!? Dirty, bloody, misleading, lying blackguards, every one of them.

Also: I felt the 'magic chum who dies to teach a lesson' in _Prospero Burns_ was much more satisfying and wholesome than in _The Green Mile_.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

The Green Mile is also a short story or what half the size? There is also a difference when a book has to do with the title for 1/3rd of the book versus 10 pages.

As a reader I did not really care all that much about the title not lining with the overall story but as a review I do have to say something about the title being misleading. But lets face it, if you are on that book of the series you will pick it up regardless of what it was called.

Seems I have to defend my choice on this book so much so i challenge all who say this is the best book as to why this is better then say Horus Rising or Nemesis or Fulgrim?


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## HorusReborn (Nov 19, 2008)

well just the fact alone that this book gives a nice, "realistic" view of the Sons of Russ other than barbaric vikings in space makes this book stand out as it is. It is a different angle than was expected I'll admit, but this book is a high ranker and I'll admit I've re read this book twice and a Thousand Sons twice. And to try to justify Nemesis to anyone is like trying to justify taking a beer away from an alcoholic... it just can't be done Larry. Prospero Burns' title might be misleading, but in all honesty the destruction that the Wolves caused to Prospero is covered enough in A Thousand Sons... and there was no need to rehash a story that had been told... sooo Yes Prospero Burns DOES deserve to be up there in the series, not next to crap-esis... and definately not comparable to Horus Rising, as Everyone knows, that book not only started the series, but fed all of our desires of getting to know who Horus was. Prospero Burns was like Horus Rising in that we got to see the Inner workings of the Sky Warriors, the inner sanctums in the Fang all of which according to cannon, and anyother wolf book states is NEVER revealed to a human!


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I still stand by the book title. The book is about events and manipulations that led to the burning of Prospero, thus the title is fine. So maybe the cover only shows something that happens in the last bit, but come on, look at all the other covers. When in Flight of the Eisenstien did they fight a Great Unclean One? The cover of The First Heretic only happens right at the end and even then not in the setting or way shown.


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

djinn24 said:


> The Green Mile is also a short story or what half the size? There is also a difference when a book has to do with the title for 1/3rd of the book versus 10 pages.


Yes, there are differences between the two stories. Well spotted, but that doesn't make them incomparable, does it? (Which is the point Malus was trying to make.)



djinn24 said:


> Seems I have to defend my choice on this book so much so i challenge all who say this is the best book as to why this is better then say Horus Rising or Nemesis or Fulgrim?


This, I think, is pretty interesting. I'll give it my best:
- PB presents a much nicer view of a Legion. "Fulgrim", though a good book, had a very limited scope given what it was claiming to be doing. The 'governance' of the Legion was controlled directly by Fulgrim and two Lord Commanders. Even Horus' Mournival was +4 to Horus, and there were other senior figures. That said, "Horus Rising" similarly suffers this way- the outlook of the Legion(s) involved just feels too...parochial. Like it was a stage production rather than a book and a readers' imagination: the cues weren't there to indicate the scope.

- I think "Nemesis" is a cracking book. I felt the assassins in it, however, fell apart. Their formation was neat. Their actions once assembled were ... tedious. Predictable. Lacking in innovation. It did, however, have awesome scenes, especially towards the end. And the conceit of the antagonist was delightful. I thought the 'sideshow' on Terra with the Master of Assassins wasn't up to scratch though. Neat idea, but the execution felt pretty cold. (Just like PB's first 50 pages: nice, but not of the requisite quality.) I don't think "Nemesis" was as tightly written, and I don't think "Nemesis" really captured the essence of what it was trying to achieve - I think it could have benefit from being either, singularly, "a really hardcore, front-line, avant-garde depiction of assassins in 30k", "a highly focussed, political Terran thriller with sideshows on the front lines" or "a civilian murder-mystery with conspiracy-thriller overtures set against the backdrop of the heresy". Including all three meant it sacrificed a lot and many of the 'high notes' weren't quite hit as successfully as they could/should have been.

I think PB & HR, however, have much in common. Both are tightly written, evocative and, excusing the first third of PB, very well paced. I think PB is the much improved successor to HR and "Legion", obviously being Dan's work. Less obviously, it highlights Dan actually spreading his wings a bit further. Much of it's pretty cerebral, involving much more of a conspiracy setup than the action-thriller/space opera of the earlier two books.

With that in mind, I think HR could be still said to be the better book, especially in light of PB's early pitfalls on Fenris, but I think both highlight some of Dan's best work and largely operate without the wallbanger moments that inhabit the likes of "Nemesis" (lacklustre Emperor portrayal, the lost cool/increasingly-"Smallville" feel endured by the assassins as time goes on) or "Fulgrim" (Fulgrim's interaction with the sword, the Eldar).

All four, however, would be ones I'd not be terribly surprised to see sit atop someone's "Best of the HH" books.

Contrast to something like "Mechanicum" (lacklustre characters, everything on Mars happens within a tiny area given the size and populace of the planet), "Flight of the Eisenstein" (amazingly readable, tremendous pace...pedestrian characters and uninspired/squandered look at the Legion), "Battle for the Abyss" (amazing characters in Skraal/Mhotep, excellent space battles but with tedious/go-nowhere/bungled plot and wasted take on Ultramarine/Word Bearers) or even "A Thousand Sons" (excellently enjoyable book, arguably very long and boring).

I think there's plenty of reasons for 'bigging up' _Prospero Burns_. And I think it's not too contentious a point to say Dan really stepped up his literary ability for it. Aaron's _The First Heretic_ comes close in literary quality, in my mind, but there's still room for improvement, so to speak. It's very good though.


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## HorusReborn (Nov 19, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> I still stand by the book title. The book is about events and manipulations that led to the burning of Prospero, thus the title is fine. So maybe the cover only shows something that happens in the last bit, but come on, look at all the other covers. When in Flight of the Eisenstien did they fight a Great Unclean One? The cover of The First Heretic only happens right at the end and even then not in the setting or way shown.


Well we can't judge a book by it's cover.. cliche I know, but it still reigns true, especially with Black Library. If we did, we would miss out on killer stories from the dawn of the Black Library fluff world. Dan Abnett covers were crap etc... Now though we are inundated with killer visuals which go on to sell their books beyond alot of other things. No, they didn't fight a GUO on the Eisenstien in the final draft, perhaps they did in one of the books incarnations before the illustrious editors cut the scene from the book, but the cover was made. The title still is a misnomer and mislead the vast majority of us who figured it would be about the burning of Prospero. This was even advertised by the Black Library as almost pitting Graham McNeil and Abnett against eachother and the "trailers" and interviews by the authours suggested it was a dual effort to describe one of the MAJOR battles other than Terra in the Heresy. This was all until Abnett got sick and Prospero Burns had to be halted and released later on. I can't say with any fact, but I do believe this changed the whole fate of the whole duel of authours and the way Black Library was intending this epic battle to be novelized if that's a word LOL


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## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

HorusReborn said:


> The title still is a misnomer and mislead the vast majority of us who figured it would be about the burning of Prospero. This was even advertised by the Black Library as almost pitting Graham McNeil and Abnett against eachother and the "trailers" and interviews by the authours suggested it was a dual effort to describe one of the MAJOR battles other than Terra in the Heresy. This was all until Abnett got sick and Prospero Burns had to be halted and released later on. I can't say with any fact, but I do believe this changed the whole fate of the whole duel of authours and the way Black Library was intending this epic battle to be novelized if that's a word LOL


But why some of you people still insist that book was about battle? Why?? Does some of you take everything you read so literally that you cant see that Prospero Burns name is 100% true of what happened in novel? Battle was already done in Thousand Sons, end of story. Now we saw what happened on Wolves side which lead to this event. Im glad Dan didnt waste pages on things which i already read about earlier. 

Xisor on earlier post kinda nailed why PB is better than majority of other HH novels. Cant add much to that except i love new Wolves and their culture that Dan brought to us.


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## HorusReborn (Nov 19, 2008)

hmm probably because the title suggests a battle.. I guess Prospero Burns could suggest such events in Prospero as a snow flurry with Gnomes running around and dancing around a Christmas tree?


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## Erik_Morkai (May 2, 2011)

bobss said:


> As a recommendation, this is complete bullshit.
> 
> Prospero Burns is a book that is like a machine. Cogs turning. It may be interpreted as ''boring'' at first, but *everything* is geared towards the finale. The Space Wolves, the Thousand Sons, Horus, Casper and his dreams.
> 
> Besides, it's also brilliant literature. It may not be as exiting as A Thousand Sons, but the quality of prose and characterisation is better, at least for me and many others.


Put like that it reminds me a bit of Inception. Yes some parts were drawn out but EVERYTHING had a point and made for a killer finale.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

I think my big issue with the book was the overdone flashbacks which to me stalled the story out in places, and lack of the wolf king being in the book. I wish he would have cut back a bit on the flashbacks and had the Wolf King play a bit more of a role in the book. I know I would have loved to have seen into his mindset a bit more then it was in the book. While Kasper is a nice enough character, he was.... boring after a while. I am reading a heresy novel to read about Space Marines, not some pawn. Honestly to me this seemed like Dan was experimenting a little and it got out of hand in some aspects, and I also know this was the infamous epilepsy book as well (my daughter has epilepsy, I know how much it can rattle the brain).

Overall I was able to finish the book with no problems, it wasn't a page turner like I have experienced before when reading an Abnett novel but that does not make it a horrid book (there have been HH novels I stopped halfway through reading and just never went back).


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

djinn24 said:


> (there have been HH novels I stopped halfway through reading and just never went back).


_Battle for the Abyss_? _Decent of Angels_?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

djinn24 said:


> I am reading a heresy novel to read about Space Marines, not some pawn.


You did read about Space Marines, and what do you think a marine is? They are pawns. They just happen to be much larger.

Edit: for the love of fuck, I need to proofread.


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

djinn24 said:


> I am reading a heresy novel to read about Space Marines, not some pawn.


There's your problem right there.


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## Hachiko (Jan 26, 2011)

Just to ask, are we talking about wet leopards, or a wet growl/snarl a la a wet cough.
I think it would be hilarious to see Abnett setting up a table, notepad and pencil, and then chucking a leopard into a bathtub and then scribbling notes as to the sounds it makes.

Also, what is the BL's policy regarding book covers? I remember an interview with Glen Cook regarding cover artists. He said "Most of the time it's in the contract that the artist can't.(read the book) They just get a few paragraphs of description of what the publisher wants and they paint from that." Might explain why there's a halfling toting an Uzi on one of the covers of a Garrett, P.I. book.
So is the BL handing its artists a title, a blurb and a check? Might be. Swanland and Sullivan, for example aren't exclusively BL artists. If this is the case, it may explain a lot of the complaints here. Is upselling a product by only showcasing its 'best bits' false advertising? No, it's traditional advertising. Do it too much, and you may piss off and lose some of your fan base. Or not. It's really up to the individual.


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

It is a good book...once you get past the whole Skald thing. It was a slow start for me too.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Doelago said:


> _Battle for the Abyss_? _Decent of Angels_?


Decent of Angels is the one. I liked Battle for the Abyss .


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

djinn24 said:


> I liked Battle for the Abyss .


... Teh fuck?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Doelago said:


> ... Teh fuck?


[WHISPER]I think he may be into bolter porn.[/WHISPER]


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## HorusReborn (Nov 19, 2008)

hmm larry I think you just slipped in your level of respectability there by liking "Battle for the Abyss" eesshh...


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

BftA had a few redeeming qualities--namely, Skraal and Mhotep. Sure, the Word Bearers were cartoonish villains, the Ultramarines were as tasty as stale cardboard, and Brynngar is a sadly laughable caricature...but the space battles are written well, and the aforementioned two characters are very cool.


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## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

djinn24 said:


> I am reading a heresy novel to read about Space Marines, not some pawn.


I noticed this too and you think Heresy is ALL about just Marines? You better just read Space Marine battle series.



Xisor said:


> There's your problem right there.


Bingo


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Mossy Toes said:


> BftA had a few redeeming qualities--namely, Skraal and Mhotep. Sure, the Word Bearers were cartoonish villains, the Ultramarines were as tasty as stale cardboard, and Brynngar is a sadly laughable caricature...but the space battles are written well, and the aforementioned two characters are very cool.


:goodpost:

I agree with this...I enjoyed the book for the WOrld eater and Thousand Son sections. On a whole this was not the worst in the series by Far.

Doc


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Roninman said:


> I noticed this too and you think Heresy is ALL about just Marines? You better just read Space Marine battle series.
> 
> 
> 
> Bingo


I do not care about some pawn who plays a small role in one book only to be stuck in a deep freezer forever after. The insight that Kasper gives us to the space Wolves is nice but could have been much greater or it could have been better if it had been done from the point of view of Bear.


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

Mossy Toes said:


> BftA had a few redeeming qualities--namely, Skraal and Mhotep. Sure, the Word Bearers were cartoonish villains, the Ultramarines were as tasty as stale cardboard, and Brynngar is a sadly laughable caricature...but the space battles are written well, and the aforementioned two characters are very cool.


I'd go a few steps further. The above features are strong enough to make the novel flip from 'a tedious miss', to having some exceptionally enjoyable and memorable scenes. Mhotep & Skraal themselves were _almost_ worth it completely. Unfortunately that's not entirely true: the weakness of the portrayal of Ultras & WBs is damning and tarnishes the book. Not irredeemably, as the other bits still are very enjoyable, but they seriously colour the book.

_However_, it also shows quite a vision held by Counter. We shouldn't, but we can look at what the book _should_ have been. The foundations are there: an Ultramarine who's gripped by faith that "Macragge is in danger", Word Bearers finally revealing the plot of decades, a desperate cross-galaxy chase with memorable villains and memorable protagonists.

It should have been excellent. Unfortunately we're left with 'little bits' to play with instead. (And I'd say those 'little bits' are much the better of those left by _The Outcast Dead_. Moreover, I think TOD fell further.)

Nevertheless, there's other bits unmentioned - Counter presents aspects to the Legions we'd not seen before: Chaplains and Librarians and varied squads and things within the Word Bearers organisation. Brynngar's _development_ from being an hilariously _un_funny caricature to a most moving and redeeming finale for the character. There's a more wholesome, more connected Imperium; the idea that other worlds and things are going on in the background - the Saturnine fleet, the Hydraphur Ring, the rebellion on Mars, the holding station, the muster at Calth.

There's a lot going on in the novel. It's just quite upsetting that it's heavily undermined by its own incredibly tepid main characters and villains.

I'd say that _Descent of Angels_ falls much further than BftA too - it plods, it presents a bizarrely uninteresting and 'plain' Caliban, has an unsatisfactorily rushed ending, an arguably diminishing 'twist'/fleshing-out in the Luther/Lion relationship and, of course, precious few memorable moments. Indeed, the 'best bit' of the novel in the odd reread or two I'd done was the chapter wherein the Angels are handed off a duty previously held by the White Scars. It's a weak point to make, but this scene is also the White Scars' best moment of the Heresy so far. (Well, that or their role in _Little Horus_.)

---

*On Prospero Burns*

I still think a critical 'problem' is the overbloated start. Not the flashbacks, but the oodles of pages wandering the ice. Cutting that for, say, even just a larger role for Bear (moving along towards the position Djinn holds) or a lengthier/extra scene with the Wolf King or other primarchs...or, hell, even just reviewing the nature of the Fang itself...

I don't see Hawser's role as wasted. I see the need to have a character 'connected' as seriously undermining the integrity of the series. The first five books all featured main characters who were in regular contact with the Primarchs. They lose their shine, pretty quickly. And lead to same-y characters. The differences between Loken, Garro and Tarvitz aren't exactly profound.

Having said that, there's surely plenty of room for more Wolf-character stories. _The Khan and the Wolf_ and _The Lion and the Wolf_ still have to be covered, after all.


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## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

Reading the first few posts here, I see others have not been any more thrilled by this book than I am so far. On page 140 of the paperback. My question is, do we ever see Prospero, Magnus, our any of the Thousand Sons? Seems so bizarre that they have no role in the first 140 pages of a book with this title and the description on the back. Only a tiny appearance for a page a hundred pages ago.


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## Designation P-90 (Feb 24, 2012)

Vitarus said:


> Reading the first few posts here, I see others have not been any more thrilled by this book than I am so far. On page 140 of the paperback. My question is, do we ever see Prospero, Magnus, our any of the Thousand Sons? Seems so bizarre that they have no role in the first 140 pages of a book with this title and the description on the back. Only a tiny appearance for a page a hundred pages ago.


Prospero etc shows up, but VERY VERY late into the story. I really think this book should have a different title.


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

Designation P-90 said:


> Prospero etc shows up, but VERY VERY late into the story. I really think this book should have a different title.


The title's fine. It's the bloody blurb that's the problem! (Also that the first fifty-odd pages are incredibly unnecessary given the rest of the story - could've been truncated to about ten pages.)


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

Xisor said:


> I don't see Hawser's role as wasted. I see the need to have a character 'connected' as seriously undermining the integrity of the series. The first five books all featured main characters who were in regular contact with the Primarchs. They lose their shine, pretty quickly. And lead to same-y characters. The differences between Loken, Garro and Tarvitz aren't exactly profound.


Sorry im only quoting this bit as you wrote a lot. and i agree with pretty much all of it, but i have to strongly disagree with you on the difference between the luna wolves main characters. These guys are different and whilst not 'profound' i think that is something purposfully developed really well across the books, as i think there gene heritage and being so close to their primarch has bred this into them. Also, when you compare them to each other towards the end, and see how things have unraveled, the differences are obviously much more profound. Had they all been _too_ different before (lets say istvaan for simplicitys sake) then i dont think it would have been quite so epic. To see how they have changed and the 'sides' they pick is really really interesting, and if they hadn't have been similar to begin with, this would have been much harder to portray. And besides, they all have their quirks and nuances that are really well described throughout. 

Anyway its wayyy off-topic, but i felt like i had to stand up for them a little!


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

Annnddd (sorry) my favourite legion is the thousand sons, there is so much potential for some really great writing surrounding them, and i think McNeil did a fantastic job with A Thousand Sons. I like to try and not be biased by reading a lot of the wolves stuff, seeing as they are eternal space rivals. I felt that whilst this was an entertaining read, i can understand where a lot of the unhappiness is coming from. Its not particularly full of battles and it is a little slow to begin with, but i think its fantastic at painting the wolves in a new light if you will. 
This book really helped re-sculpt my opinion of the wolves, i think anyone going in expecting to read the other side of the destruction of the sons and the wracking of Prospero is going to be justifiably unhappy, but if you approach this book wih no preconceptions of what to expect, i think most readers will be happily surprised. I admit, after reading it once i felt a little deflated..but i listened to it at work, and i sort of understood it more..or maybe it just sunk in a little more second time, and i was able to really get mentally stuck into it. Also second time round, knowing i wasn't going to get much action i think helped me appreciate it more for what it is, rather than what it isn't.


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## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

tabbytomo said:


> Annnddd (sorry) my favourite legion is the thousand sons, there is so much potential for some really great writing surrounding them,


Yeah, that's how I feel. I was happy enough with A Thousand Sons, and the brief moment in The Outcast Dead was great. I was hoping to get a lot more here, but I guess it's not to be. I just bought Battle of the Fang, and hope there's more of them. Any other books I should be getting?


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## Designation P-90 (Feb 24, 2012)

Xisor said:


> The title's fine. It's the bloody blurb that's the problem! (Also that the first fifty-odd pages are incredibly unnecessary given the rest of the story - could've been truncated to about ten pages.)



IMO the title is misleading. When the main focus of the story is a skald (spelling?), his interactions with the Wolves, and the inner workings of the Wolves the title shouldn't be about a specific battle.


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

Designation P-90 said:


> IMO the title is misleading. When the main focus of the story is a skald (spelling?), his interactions with the Wolves, and the inner workings of the Wolves the title shouldn't be about a specific battle.


IMO your opinion is correct.


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## Designation P-90 (Feb 24, 2012)

I better (and more accurate) title would have been _The Wolves of Fenris_.


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## Kaghlan (Jun 1, 2012)

Or "No Wolves on Fenris"


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## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

Title aint misleading, Prospero will Burn and its about the events that lead to it. Does people really want whole book about battle or this thread again really going somewhere? What does title has anything to do if book is enjoyable or not? I couldnt care less what title is.


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## Designation P-90 (Feb 24, 2012)

Roninman said:


> Title aint misleading, Prospero will Burn and its about the events that lead to it. Does people really want whole book about battle or this thread again really going somewhere? What does title has anything to do if book is enjoyable or not? I couldnt care less what title is.



The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the book of the book deals tells the story of a skald. How he became one, what it means, how he does his job, and how he interacts with the Space Wolves. The battle itself is told from the perspective of the skald and serves as nothing but a backdrop for the stories climax. The title, back blurb, and cover are all deceptive. I am not saying its a bad book at all, I am just saying that it seems to me that Dan wrote this story and GW (or whoever) decided that this was to be a "follow up" to A Thousand Sons simply because it shared a battle with that book.


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