# could a really powerful psyker beat...a primarch?



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

as I understand it, among the primarchs only Magnus was a "true" full-blown psyker

the rest had varying degrees of psychic potential (probably because Warp powers were involved in their creation)

you'd think that non-psyker primarchs would be very vulnerable to psychic attacks, but apparently Russ shrugged off and even reflected the psychic attacks of an extremely powerful TS captain (and of course he beat Magnus though I still don't get how Magnus ended up in close combat with him) 

anyway, does this "immunity" extend to other primarchs? 
if you threw an alpha plus psyker (like one of the Apex Twins) or a libarian like Tigurius or Mephiston against one of the primarchs (not Magnus), would the psyker have a chance?

also, Alpha Plus psykers are described as so ridiculously powerful that Magnus didn't seem to qualify as one...


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Even the Primarchs who did not display great psychic powers, I believe they all have the potential to. Perhaps not to the degree of Magnus but close.

In the end a Primarch is a singular entity. A being so perfect they cannot be replicated again for the rest of time.

I don't care what level the psyker is, nothing can trump a Primarch except for a handful of things. 

Each Primarch possesses a fragment of the Emperors psyche and DNA and he is the most powerful psyker to have ever walked the material realm and thus they are each imbued with anti-psyker abilities/auras, etc. For example Russ's scream.

Magnus is the second most powerful psyker if I am not mistaken, right after the Emperor so a psychic scale developed for humans wouldn't really work and hence why there is no reason to rank Magnus's power level. 

He is simply the second most powerful psyker in existence.

Then comes Malcador the Sigillite.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

The Old Ones walked the material realm and they created the eldar,orks,and human race. Eldrad Ulthran walked the material realm. The guy who saw the Heresy coming and diverted the Ork Waaagh!!! from his species to Armageddon.The Emperor was the most powerful human psyker. However compared to the older races even his knowledge of the warp was second rate.That's why he couldn't replicate webway technology. Also anything done once can be done again. The primarchs weren't perfect because they all pretty much had behavioral disorders in varying degrees. The fact that they had to learn to be human by witnessing their environments magnified to destructive degrees the genetic aspect they inherited from the Emperor. I don't understand how these "Do you think this person can die posts keep coming up." The entire purpose of a horror sci-fi universe is that anyone at anytime can die. 

A multitude of crazed human cultists attacking an astartes company. It only takes one head shot to kill a space marine if it's the right weapon. If the Primarch has no experiance in dealing with psychic attacks and your talking about an alpha pysker than yeah, he's going to die. It's just a lot freaking harder than a space marine. I'd say there's an 80 percent chance he might pull through because they are built to be resilient. The rest of the percentage I give to Murphy's Law which dominates everything.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

@Deadeye: We can assume that the Old Ones were not overly powerful given their need to create races with powerful psychic abilities. Similarly, comparing eldar psychic abilities to those of human psykers is inaccurate given the differences in the nature of their abilities. Eldar make better seers than humans, and humand make better offensive psykers than eldar. There is no real direct comparison for raw power levels. 

On topic, I would venture a guess and say it was because each of them was under some form of Warp based protection. Whether some sort of physiological safety built in by the emperor or the protection of manipulative gods I couldn`t say for sure. But the nature of battlefields in the Grimdark of the setting leads me to believe there was more to their success than simply being awesome.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

@deadeye:

Ulthran is powerful but he is nowhere near the Emperor's power.

The Emperor is living off of like two cells and still he is able to manage holding off a trillion demons, manage a means of travel for countless billions, communicate with a select few via the Imperial Tarot or other means and possibly a thousand other things GW hasn't told us about.

Ulthran failed in his timing with Fulgrim and got tricked by Slaanesh and got consumed. Tricking a race of angry aliens into going down a different road that still promised endless fighting means nothing IMO.

The Emperor has no equal. He is technically not human.

The Eldar did not create the Webway, the Old Ones did. It has nothing to do with pyschic might but rather pure science hence why the Golden Throne, a relic from an era where humanity reached its zenith in technology, was so vital in the Emperor's Webway Project.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yeah i'm pretty sure its stated(and i'm sure it was by the Eldar, maybe even Eldrad) that the Emperor is the most poweful psyker ever, not just humans, but all races.

And when Malus said the primarchs were perfect being, i'm assuming he meant biologically and scientifically. Obviously emotionally they aren't. But their bodies, pretty much the closest thing to perfection in the universe of 40k(30k)


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

As with all such fight scenerios it really comes down to the situation as to who will win. Generally speaking Alpha plus psykers are extremely fractured, both mentally and psykicly, which means that there abilities and sanity fluctuate rapidly. By comparision Primarchs (even Kurze) are models of mental stability. Further Primarchs are weapons, built and honed to be some of the finest killing machines to have ever existed. Powerful psykers often struggle to understand the source, nature and strength of their powers whereas we have never seen (as far as I'm aware) a Primarch doubt themselves in battle. In a straight up fight I think a Primarch will probably beat an Alpha Plus, in a fight that the Primarch gets to set the terms of they will almost certainly win.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> or a libarian like Tigurius or Mephiston against one of the primarchs (not Magnus), would the psyker have a chance?


:shok: Those guys would be an absolute mess after ten seconds in a room with a Primarch.


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

Yes a extremely powerful psyker could beat a Primarch. If you recall, on Horus' battlebarge, this is what actually occured.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Seeing's how Psykers can pretty regularly tear holes in reality then yes a Psyker could defeat a Primarch. It just seems to be a fluff void that Psykers can do this, but then everyone forgets they can, then they do it again and everyone goes holy crap what the fuck psyker dude then immediately forget he can do that again.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

LordLucan said:


> Yes a extremely powerful psyker could beat a Primarch. If you recall, on Horus' battlebarge, this is what actually occured.


Yeah, kind of a whole different ballgame where that psykers concerened though ^^, infact it's not even the same sport.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Is he referring to the Emperor? 

If so.... ; /


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Well all orks are powerful latent psychers and an exceptional one almost killed the emperor so it possible that an equally exceptional one could kill a primarch.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

It almost killed him in the same way Curze almost killed the Lion.

And not all Orks are powerful latent psykers.

Their collective race is.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> It almost killed him in the same way Curze almost killed the Lion.


Not exactly as the lion/curze fight was described as a draw despite the two exchanging the upper hand during the fight. The emp on the other hand was described as having his life saved by horus from the ork.



> And not all Orks are powerful latent psykers.
> 
> Their collective race is.


The ork species collectively create the Waaaagh gestalt. Each individual adds its psychic presence to the Waaaaagh hence it being a gestalt.

Individual orks subconsciously use the Waaaaaagh psychic field for their own purpose such as speeding up their vehicles or making their weapons not fall apart.

So yes every ork is a powerful latent psycher, the ork species as a whole just creates their form of psychic energy that they all naturally tap into.


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## palefire (Jul 30, 2011)

Well, Magnus couldn't stop Leman Russ when they fought on Prospero, and Magnus was arguably the second most powerful psyker.


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## BrainFreeze (Oct 9, 2008)

palefire said:


> Well, Magnus couldn't stop Leman Russ when they fought on Prospero, and Magnus was arguably the second most powerful psyker.


And Leman Russ was argueably built to specifically stop psychers...it's not exactly a good baseline scenario.

A better scenario I guess would be Ahriman vs Corax..


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

BrainFreeze said:


> And Leman Russ was argueably built to specifically stop psychers...it's not exactly a good baseline scenario.


It's never indicated anywhere that Russ may be any more resistant to psychic powers than any other primarch. What is hinted at in _A Thousand Sons_ is that all the primarchs are somehow created using the warp, and thus are partly warp creatures. This may be how Russ was able to resist one of the most powerful psykers ever, with the only real effect being to make him even angrier.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I recall that Magnus never targets Russ with any psychic attack
my memory could be faulty...I just remember that they hack at each other



Klaivex said:


> Not exactly as the lion/curze fight was described as a draw


the authour has made that statement in the Lion vs. Curze thread, but my opinion is that _in the actual passages describing the fight_, the Lion has somewhat of an advantage in the beginning, loses it, gets owned, and then gets saved.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> As with all such fight scenerios it really comes down to the situation as to who will win. Generally speaking Alpha plus psykers are extremely fractured, both mentally and psykicly, which means that there abilities and sanity fluctuate rapidly. By comparision Primarchs (even Kurze) are models of mental stability. Further Primarchs are weapons, built and honed to be some of the finest killing machines to have ever existed. Powerful psykers often struggle to understand the source, nature and strength of their powers whereas we have never seen (as far as I'm aware) a Primarch doubt themselves in battle. In a straight up fight I think a Primarch will probably beat an Alpha Plus, in a fight that the Primarch gets to set the terms of they will almost certainly win.


I think this definitely has to be taken into account. If we try to determine who will win a Primarch vs. ultra-powerful psyker duel in terms of pure strength and killing ability, then perhaps the psyker would have the upper hand. However, if we factor in things like training, doctrine, and experience, you can clearly see that the Primarch would have the edge. If Primarchs have some natural Warp resistance, it plays even more in their favor. The psyker could win with a "lucky" first blow, or they could somehow immobilize the Primarch and overpower him, but in a prolonged fight, I think the edge goes to the Primarch.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

What makes you guys think the pskyer would even have time to cast the spell or to think of it in his mind before the Primarch kills him?


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> This may be how Russ was able to resist one of the most powerful psykers ever, *with the only real effect being to make him even angrier.*


That's not really true, seeing as Russ did take quite a beating himself and was described as "battered and bruised" by the end of the fight. Hell, Magnus stabbed a hole through his chest with a mental blade. In fact, you could argue that Magnus could have had a shot at winning if Russ's pet wolves hadn't jumped in at a point where Magnus had the upper hand. The fact is, the two were very evenly matched and it was just that one blow to Magnus's eye that turned thew fight in the Wolf King's favour.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

well, I guess if the primarch is really close to the psyker, this discussion would be rather pointless 

I remember alpha plus psykers can "snap battle titans with a flick of the wrist"...that makes me wonder whether a powerful psyker (not the Emperor, Magnus, etc.) can just snap a primarch from a reasonable distance


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I would argue a being as magnificent as a Primarch, a living and breathing entity closely tied to the warp would be resistant to most psyker attacks.

Russ is so sure of himself, so confident that I think that alone conjures an aura that negates most if not all psychic attacks.

People seem to forget that psykers get their powers from the warp which is essentially just a pool of emotions and Primarchs are so full of emotions that were an ordinary man to look inside their minds, they would come out shattered.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

Though I believe the Emperor is the strongest psyker to ever live, I feel that the Twins are more powerful than Mangus.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

The necrontyr would disagree with you about the power of the old ones. I think the C'tan would probably disagree too. As powerful as the Emperor is I've never seen him:create life from nothing, infuse that life with the warp affinity, safely create travel in the warp (webway), and establish the basis for the universe we know now. You look at all that and in no way can you not say these guys were techinically gods to the races that followed (obviously not to chaos,necrons,c'tan,tau,and tyranids). In scope even to the Emperor the old ones tech is advanced beyond his capability. I'm not gonna say something like that and not back it up. Look up what the Emperor said about the webway and his inability to replicate it safely. 

I know you'll say he created the primarchs right? It's been strongly indicated by the Chaos Gods themselves that they had a hand in that, as they say the Emperor apparently reneged on a deal for power. Maybe the reason the Emperor told Horus "They don't share power" is because he already knew first hand. This however means that he couldn't get it done on his own like the Old Ones.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Deadeye776 said:


> The necrontyr would disagree with you about the power of the old ones. I think the C'tan would probably disagree too. As powerful as the Emperor is I've never seen him:create life from nothing, infuse that life with the warp affinity, safely create travel in the warp (webway), and establish the basis for the universe we know now. You look at all that and in no way can you not say these guys were techinically gods to the races that followed (obviously not to chaos,necrons,c'tan,tau,and tyranids). In scope even to the Emperor the old ones tech is advanced beyond his capability. I'm not gonna say something like that and not back it up. Look up what the Emperor said about the webway and his inability to replicate it safely.
> 
> I know you'll say he created the primarchs right? It's been strongly indicated by the Chaos Gods themselves that they had a hand in that, as they say the Emperor apparently reneged on a deal for power. Maybe the reason the Emperor told Horus "They don't share power" is because he already knew first hand. This however means that he couldn't get it done on his own like the Old Ones.


I think you're giving the Old Ones both too much and not enough credit depending on where you look in your post.

There is nothing that states the Old Ones created races from nothing, it actually states the opposite, that they used controlled breeding to create the Eldar and other races.

As for the Webway, there is no time frame given on how long it took the Old Ones to build it. We are told they devised the Webway to avoid travel through the Warp, but I hardly doubt it was built over night. Beyond that the Emperor did build himself a gate into the Webway, but lacked the materials to make it self sustaining like the rest of the Webway. If he had the proper materials I don't think it would have been an issue.

Secondly the Old Ones are more powerful then the Emperor then they should have won, as the Emperor has defeated the Void Dragon (said to be the most powerful C'Tan) 1 on 1. Based on that your estimation on their power levels seems a bit off.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> The necrontyr would disagree with you about the power of the old ones. I think the C'tan would probably disagree too. As powerful as the Emperor is I've never seen him:create life from nothing, infuse that life with the warp affinity, safely create travel in the warp (webway), and establish the basis for the universe we know now. You look at all that and in no way can you not say these guys were techinically gods to the races that followed (obviously not to chaos,necrons,c'tan,tau,and tyranids). In scope even to the Emperor the old ones tech is advanced beyond his capability. I'm not gonna say something like that and not back it up. Look up what the Emperor said about the webway and his inability to replicate it safely.
> 
> I know you'll say he created the primarchs right? It's been strongly indicated by the Chaos Gods themselves that they had a hand in that, as they say the Emperor apparently reneged on a deal for power. Maybe the reason the Emperor told Horus "They don't share power" is because he already knew first hand. This however means that he couldn't get it done on his own like the Old Ones.


The Old Ones were long lived and infinitely patient. They literally had thousands, millions even, of years to accomplish what they did before the war began. Even then, the War in Heaven lasted an incalculably long time, during which they made it a point to create such races as the eldar and orks, powerful psychic races in their own right. 

Methinks were they so powerful, they would not have had need of such able servants. History records far more involvement of the eldar battling the necrons than anyone else. :wink:


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> What makes you guys think the pskyer would even have time to cast the spell or to think of it in his mind before the Primarch kills him?


Hubris, it's the fault of every Primarch, to monologue for a bit before doing anything useful. 

Primarchs are still corporeal beings in the material realm, Psykers can tear holes in reality when the writers remember they can do that. Thus a psyker could kill a Primarch if the writer remembers what Psykers can actually do in the 40K universe.



> I feel that the Twins are more powerful than Mangus.


Source?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

If the psyker was that powerful I'd say the Emperor would of stepped in to deal with it. A competent psyker of so much power could probably rip away every layer of the Primarchs body, despite their inherent resistance to the warp. At least that's what I'd think.


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## Durant (Aug 24, 2011)

Aramoro said:


> Seeing's how Psykers can pretty regularly tear holes in reality then yes a Psyker could defeat a Primarch. It just seems to be a fluff void that Psykers can do this, but then everyone forgets they can, then they do it again and everyone goes holy crap what the fuck psyker dude then immediately forget he can do that again.


Its those pesky old psyker mind trickz :grin:


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

I always was under the impression that the Emperor was a powerful psyker perhaps the most powerful psyker for all mankind. 

So yes a powerful psyker can beat a primarch. I think a better question would be would any of the current librarian like Mephisto be able to beat a primarch?


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

kwak76 said:


> I always was under the impression that the Emperor was a powerful psyker perhaps the most powerful psyker for all mankind.
> 
> So yes a powerful psyker can beat a primarch. I think a better question would be would any of the current librarian like Mephisto be able to beat a primarch?


Yes, the Emperor is the most powerful human psyker in existence; the only reason he got thrashed by Horus was because he was holding back until the very last moment. Then again, is it really fair to compare the Emperor to one of his creations? Of course - in this case - the Emperor is going to be able to defeat any Primarch, not only because he's a psyker, but because, well, he's their daddy in a sense. A powerful Librarian would be a better test, or an alpha-plus psyker.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Not so sure about the Emperor holding back any more due to the latest Heresy book.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Really? And which one would that be? Collected Visions has the most up to date version of the fight and it explicitly states that the Emperor could not(would not) bring his full power to bear against Horus. Hell he even takes the first blow and continues trying to convince Horus hes deluded before eventually fighting him.

The Emperor literally could have opened the fight with his killing blow, but A: He wanted to try and bring Horus back and B: It wouldn't be anywhere near as climactic or grimdark:

Emperor enters the bridge
Horus: Father! I see you've come to witness my victory over your empire as i finally become the true Emperor of manki--
WOMPH
Horus is atomised, the Empeor surveys the room
Emperor: Anyone else got anything they would like to say?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Now if only we could make CoTe see the light and agree to the above lol.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

This is interesting. So the Emperor sanctions two of his primarchs for transgressions unknown. Lays down the law on Magnus and eventually is about to bring him in for crimes against the Imperium until Russ get's counter orders from Horus to kill him.He's going to bring in Kurze for crimes against humanity. Now, with all this in mind, Horus has literally put to the torch a majority of the Imperium,crippled legions, killed his brothers, and has layed waste to the Imperial palace. After all that even if Horus was like "Hey man, I just missed you, it's cool I'll stop" what would have happened? There's no spin machine in history that could have helped Horus' image after that. He would have had to have been executed. Most likely brutally by the Imperium.So with this being the bottom line......why the hell would the emperor hold back. He walked into a room with a dead son laying at the feet of Horus. I'm interested to see why Horus' actions seemed redeemable to the Emperor. Of all the sons, I know he was the favorite but it seems bordering on ridiculous to think anything but death waited for Horus if he surrendered.


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## Black Steel Feathers (Aug 17, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> Emperor enters the bridge
> Horus: Father! I see you've come to witness my victory over your empire as i finally become the true Emperor of manki--
> WOMPH
> Horus is atomised, the Empeor surveys the room
> Emperor: Anyone else got anything they would like to say?


:goodpost: This is fantastic.

And probably would have been MY father's reponse, had was he an ultra-powerful wizard-type and I had just betrayed him and killed my own brother- "Buh-bye, ratbag. Nice knowing you."


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> This is interesting. So the Emperor sanctions two of his primarchs for transgressions unknown. Lays down the law on Magnus and eventually is about to bring him in for crimes against the Imperium until Russ get's counter orders from Horus to kill him.He's going to bring in Kurze for crimes against humanity. Now, with all this in mind, Horus has literally put to the torch a majority of the Imperium,crippled legions, killed his brothers, and has layed waste to the Imperial palace. After all that even if Horus was like "Hey man, I just missed you, it's cool I'll stop" what would have happened? There's no spin machine in history that could have helped Horus' image after that. He would have had to have been executed. Most likely brutally by the Imperium.So with this being the bottom line......why the hell would the emperor hold back. He walked into a room with a dead son laying at the feet of Horus. I'm interested to see why Horus' actions seemed redeemable to the Emperor. Of all the sons, I know he was the favorite but it seems bordering on ridiculous to think anything but death waited for Horus if he surrendered.


Read the short story of their encounter in Collected Visions I think.

The Emperor truly loved Horus like a son.

It's as clear as day that he held back and he paid for this mistake with his physical body.

Only a second before the Emperor demolished Horus's soul did Horus come to his senses but it was far too late for the reasons you mentioned.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Angel of Blood said:


> Really? And which one would that be? Collected Visions has the most up to date version of the fight and it explicitly states that the Emperor could not(would not) bring his full power to bear against Horus. Hell he even takes the first blow and continues trying to convince Horus hes deluded before eventually fighting him.
> 
> The Emperor literally could have opened the fight with his killing blow, but A: He wanted to try and bring Horus back and B: It wouldn't be anywhere near as climactic or grimdark:
> 
> ...


I would respond with detail but I don't want to spoil _The Outcast Dead_.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Feel free to do so but include the spoiler tag ^_^


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Feel free to do so but include the spoiler tag ^_^


Ok here I go:



The Emperor knows what's going to happen, he finds out by the end of the story how things are going to pan out, he finds out that it's going to end in a stalemate. 

It was always the Emperor's plan for him to be the one to finish the heresy however it's shown that it will end with both sides "losing" in the long run. If this is so then why is he apparently reluctant to finish his son quickly if he really had the power to do so, _The Outcast Dead_ seems to indicate it's not his reluctance that's stopping him from simply killing Horus but that he doesn't have the power to do it, which is why it will end in a "draw".


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Hmmm, well i'm gonna wait till i read the Outcast Dead myself, but it's one bit of fluff i don't believe they should change. The Emperor is the fracking Emperor, he literally has no equal, the fact that he could do an attack that erased Horus from existence in itself says he must have been holding back, otherwise like i said, he could have just opened with that blast the moment he entered the room.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Well maybe a compromise is better. He had the power but the power he needed to defeat Horus would also kill him? Horus had hurt him but possibly not as much as I was lead to believe, I always thought it was the wounds suffered at the hands of Horus that nearly killed him but in this instance, it's the use of the power to defeat him that did it instead?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I will have to read the book before I change my mind because literally everything pointed to the Emperor holding back. 

And Horus tore out his limbs and an eye or two so I'd wager it was indeed the wounds and the emotional trauma of killing Horus that sealed the deal.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> He's going to bring in Kurze for crimes against humanity.


Actually, he intended to kill him. You don't send assassins (note the plural) to bring someone in for questioning.



> So with this being the bottom line......why the hell would the emperor hold back. He walked into a room with a dead son laying at the feet of Horus. I'm interested to see why Horus' actions seemed redeemable to the Emperor. Of all the sons, I know he was the favorite but it seems bordering on ridiculous to think anything but death waited for Horus if he surrendered.


He might not have been bolding back out of a belief that Horus could be redeemed. He is fighting his favourite *son*, his most trusted advisor, his long time companion and the man who's saved his life (possibly repeatedly). The idea that the Emperor held back to me indicates not that he beleived Horus could be redeemed but simply that he couldn't bring himself to kill him. It shows a more human (and flawed) side to the Emperor that I feel adds real depth to both the character and the narative.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> The Emperor is the fracking Emperor, he literally has no equal, the fact that he could do an attack that erased Horus from existence in itself says he must have been holding back, otherwise like i said, he could have just opened with that blast the moment he entered the room.


I agree that they should keep the Emperor's amazing power as part of the fluff 

however, I have a feeling that Graham could say something like "the Emperor was only able to deliver the attack because Horus let down his guard in a moment of arrogance"


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Konrad Kurze was supposed to be brought in to answer for what he'd done. That was the original decree after he almost killed (according to Malcador) Rogal Dorn. This ruling was from his peer primarchs. After the heresy it was the high lords of terra i believe who sent teams of assassins to take him out.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

A Primarch is a creature created for war. He's an Avatar of destruction, a greater demon is unable to over power a Primarchs psyche. Primarchs can cut tanks in half without even breaking stride, and choke out embodiments of a god of war. I don't care who you are, a Primarch will beat you. (Emperor excluded)


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Kabandah (round 1), Dorn vs whatever was on the bridge of the ship he boarded in the first black crusade, Daemon possessed Fulgrim vs Gulliman, Kaldor Draigo (powered by the new Chaos God Matt Ward). These are some battles that the primarchs lost.


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