# Lorgar - Why?



## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

Ok, so all the Primarchs were created with purpose, russ the executioner ect ect...But what really was Lorgars purpose? to be a preacher? He got bullied by his bro's for being weak, he reclaimed the least planets in the crusade..why oh why didn't the big E jus create another guilliman or something?? anyone enlighten me?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Lorgar is an orator with a great gift for persuasion. Bear in mind the worlds he conquered were among the staunchest of loyal worlds.

And subsequently, he turned the greatest of the Primarchs to the service of Chaos. 



If i had to venture a guess, I`d say he embodied the Emperor`s gift for Oration. 

It was also pointed out that he _was_ the most trusting of the primarchs before his faith in the Emperor was shattered.


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

lol so hardly the most trust-worthy in the end, interesting though, that a primarch with gifts of oration and persuasion was needed, i mean, if a primarch tells you something you either:
A. do it
B. die


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Ive been reading the first heretic lately(so far great book) and really he whines too much. Ide guess orator is pot on for him honestly, also I think alot of made him turn was alot to do with erebus and pharon's pesuasion


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

He also had the supposed golden skin that echoed the Emperors golden presence. Remember Chaos had a hand in creating the Primarchs, so it's entirely possible they foresaw the way in which they could corrupt the strongest of Primarchs by having a Primarch with some of the best persuasive tools.


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

good point i overlooked chaos' hand in that! strange though, i feel the emperor could have got on fine with his imperium without lorgar and the word bearers, if anything he could have made some more ultramarines and saved himself the hassle of another primarch...


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## Worldkiller (Jun 16, 2010)

tabbytomo said:


> he reclaimed the least planets in the crusade..


Actually it is stated in First Heretic that after their first big reprimand from the Emperor, they went on to add a whole bunch of worlds to the Imperium.


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## harlokin (Jun 3, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> He also had the supposed golden skin that echoed the Emperors golden presence. Remember Chaos had a hand in creating the Primarchs, so it's entirely possible they foresaw the way in which they could corrupt the strongest of Primarchs by having a Primarch with some of the best persuasive tools.


They only had a hand in 'creating' the Primarchs by scattering them, thereby influencing their upbringing.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

harlokin said:


> They only had a hand in 'creating' the Primarchs by scattering them, thereby influencing their upbringing.


Its still the same, they put the most vulnerable to corruption on worlds they knew would/could end up swaying them towards chaos. The Emperor forbid worship and so they put the best orator on a world where religion was everything.


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## harlokin (Jun 3, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Its still the same, they put the most vulnerable to corruption on worlds they knew would/could end up swaying them towards chaos. The Emperor forbid worship and so they put the best orator on a world where religion was everything.


Yup, I agree. The subtle influence of where the Primarchs landed was good enough for Chaos in most cases. One exception seems to have been The Lion, who wasn't corrupted by Caliban as he was expected to be.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

harlokin said:


> Yup, I agree. The subtle influence of where the Primarchs landed was good enough for Chaos in most cases. One exception seems to have been The Lion, who wasn't corrupted by Caliban as he was expected to be.


They also literally had a hand in creating the Primarchs though, the Emperor made a deal with the gods and he reneged on it, so the Chaos gods spread them across the void and claimed half of them that way.


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## harlokin (Jun 3, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> They also literally had a hand in creating the Primarchs though, the Emperor made a deal with the gods and he reneged on it, so the Chaos gods spread them across the void and claimed half of them that way.


That is what I though you meant originally. No, there is no proof that the Emperor made any deal with Chaos over the Primarchs.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

There is, I believe it's in first heretic. It's one of the major reasons Lorgar gave up on worshipping the Emperor as he saw it as a lie and the true gods he was search for where now clear before him.


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## harlokin (Jun 3, 2011)

It was a vision provided to Lorgar, by a Daemon, to sway him to Chaos. Not perhaps the most compelling source of _truth_.

In the first instance the Chaos gods hated the Emperor ("The Anathema"), and had no reason to assist him. 

More crucially the Primarchs were untainted till after they were scattered. If you look at an actual example of Chaos 'assistance', that granted to Magnus to stabilise the Thousand Sons, you see that they try to destroy what you are trying to achieve even while apparently doing what you want.


The fact that the Chaos powers had to scatter the Primarchs at all looks like a panic measure, and I wouldn't believe them claiming "we helped the Emperor in good faith, but we was cruelly tricked"


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

So is there any other source besides the 1st heretis that states that the Big E had help form the Big 4 in creating the primarchs


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## Worldkiller (Jun 16, 2010)

TheSpore said:


> So is there any other source besides the 1st heretis that states that the Big E had help form the Big 4 in creating the primarchs


I think its mentioned that they helped Big E during the vision Horus experiences in False Gods. I could be wrong though.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed, my mind is still not made up on whether the Emperor made any pact with the gods. Until the Emperor himself states it then i won't fully believe it, as said the words of deamons or Erebus trying to corrupt Horus/Logar are hardly the most reliable sources. It's something i've always had so much trouble with, that the Horus, Lorgar and Argel Tal and co so readily and quickly accepted that the visions they were seeing were fact, without even once seeming to show any doubt it could all be the deamons manipulations.

On the subject of Lorgars role. The Primarchs didn't really *have* to have any particular role. As it happens, most of them had a unique style or ability that bracketed them into certain roles, but it's never said that the Emperor specifically wanted them to have their own personal roles. The Emperor quite easily could have just intended Logar to be a general and win world over, something he didn't relish doing, but what the Emperor wanted all the same.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

tabbytomo said:


> Ok, so all the Primarchs were created with purpose, russ the executioner ect ect...But what really was Lorgars purpose? to be a preacher? He got bullied by his bro's for being weak, he reclaimed the least planets in the crusade..why oh why didn't the big E jus create another guilliman or something?? anyone enlighten me?


Lorgar strictly adhering to philosophy and religion was most likely solely the result of Colchis rather than it being intentional on the Emperor's behalf. It should also be noted that Chaos may have had some hand in the development of the Primarchs following the scattering (note Sanguinius' wings, Alpharius splitting into two bodies Et cetera - if indeed none of that kind of thing was the Emperor's doing), or even before the scattering considering its now generally perceived that the Emperor needed Chaos' assistance in the creation of the Primarchs. But the most obvious influence they had was in choosing (if indeed they did) what homeworlds the Primarchs came to land on. They may not have been able to corrupt the Primarchs directly, but they sure as hell could have corrupted the human civilisations that inhabited the homeworlds, thus vastly increasing the chance of each Primarch's fall. 



Worldkiller said:


> Actually it is stated in First Heretic that after their first big reprimand from the Emperor, they went on to add a whole bunch of worlds to the Imperium.


IIRC for the last few decades of the Great Crusade they actually conquered the most worlds out of any Legion.



harlokin said:


> They only had a hand in 'creating' the Primarchs by scattering them, thereby influencing their upbringing.


Apparently their power was directly used in their creation, which could potentially mean influence right from the start. But take into account that the pods were sucked up into the warp during the scattering, who knows what the gods were able to achieve when the Primarchs were floating around in the warp.



TheSpore said:


> So is there any other source besides the 1st heretis that states that the Big E had help form the Big 4 in creating the primarchs


It was brought up long before _The First Heretic_ was published IIRC, and has been mentioned in at least one other Heresy novel.

EDIT: Found a useful quote from myself in regards to this:


Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I believe it was _False Gods_ (IIRC) that introduced the concept, _The First Heretic_ referred to the chaos gods as the father(s) of the Primarchs just as much as the Emperor was. But the real canker in the works was _A Thousand Sons_, which informed us from Magnus' perspective. Magnus directly knew that the Emperor had made such bargains with the chaos gods, and was even fearful of them to an extent. This (at least in my mind) validates the theory more than anything (solely because it can't really be blamed on the fickleness of a daemon). Of course though im not saying you are wrong to believe they were created solely by the Emperor, just that the lore seems to be increasingly pointing in the opposite direction.





Angel of Blood said:


> It's something i've always had so much trouble with, that the Horus, Lorgar and Argel Tal and co so readily and quickly accepted that the visions they were seeing were fact, without even once seeming to show any doubt it could all be the deamons manipulations.


Who says Lorgar and Horus didn't? And Argel Tal certainly justified his reasons for believing the daemon:


Page 328:
'But what if were being lied to?'

It would have been easy to say that faith was it's own sustenance and that humanity always reached for religion; that almost every rediscovered human culture clung to their own belief in the infinite and the divine; and that here was a realm of prophecy - where beings with the power of gods had proved beyond doubt that they'd summoned the Lord of the Seventeenth Legion, shaping fate to make these events unfold. Whether they were benevolent creator gods from mythology or mere manifestations of mortal emotion was irrelevant. Here was the divine force in a galaxy of lost souls. On the edge of the physical universe, gods and mortals had finally met, and mankind would fall without their masters.

But Argel Tal said none of this. He was weary of such explanation.

'I remember your words after Monarchia died in the Emperor's fire. You told me it was the day you truly began to believe that gods were real, once you had seen such power unleashed. I felt the same when I saw the power at work in this storm. Can you understand that, Cyrene?'

'I understand.'




Angel of Blood said:


> On the subject of Lorgars role. The Primarchs didn't really *have* to have any particular role. As it happens, most of them had a unique style or ability that bracketed them into certain roles, but it's never said that the Emperor specifically wanted them to have their own personal roles. The Emperor quite easily could have just intended Logar to be a general and win world over, something he didn't relish doing, but what the Emperor wanted all the same.


:goodpost:

Indeed. The Primarchs were above all generals to lead the Emperor's armies across the galaxy, not all of them needed additional purposes.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I'm sick of this crap of "I dont believe Chaos made deals with the Emp on the Primarchs making cause a Daemon says it, and they *always* lie!" line. It gets old and shows very little knowledge on Chaos itself. Read a CSM book will ya. 2 books in particular come in mind, Blood Gorgons and Daemon World. In Blood Gorgons the Daemon they summon, a DP it seems, is what the Blood Gorgons rely on to tell the truth in a ceartain matter. This DP very own thoughts spoke it had no problem telling the truth as it amuses him more so of the worshiping CSMs to rely on him. He n ever gets the chance to delve on it more. In Daemon World a Slannesh Champion is interrogating a Blood Letter Daemon on the current events on her planet, she knows it tells truths and half truths, you just have to sort it out. So Daemons dont just lie ALL the time. Here we have 3 HH Books that show Erebus and a Daemon claiming it so. There bad guys!? Well so did a VERY Loyal Magnus said as much and knew this. He had no reason to lie and was the ONLY Primarch with any real knowledge on the Warp, Emperor, Horus Betrayal, Chaos Gods, and connection to Daddy when he grew up. None of the other Primarchs can claim this and he says as much. 

Now thats Rant Done. Other than that CotE says as much. This guy Logar was not a good general, but he did have the best Quality worlds rivaling that of Guilliman, and after that fiasco he claim more Worlds than Horus. That says alot about what he was about. Question should be why Emp had to go and piss this guy off causing the whole HH to begin with.


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## harlokin (Jun 3, 2011)

Warlock in Training said:


> I'm sick of this crap of "I dont believe Chaos made deals with the Emp on the Primarchs making cause a Daemon says it, and they *always* lie!" line.


It's not that a Daemon will never tell the truth, it is the context of when it is said. A Daemon trying to convince someone to turn their back on the Emperor is likely to twist fact to cast doubt on him.

It's frustrating when some people read a book and can't seem to tell the difference between a character (with all attendant baggage and bias) stating something, and the author/narrator doing so.


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