# Are the Space Wolves the only real 'good guys' in 40k?



## Ardias26 (Sep 26, 2008)

When the inquisition/administratum shipped off the 1st armageddon wars survivors, it was the SW's that spoke out against them, they seem to be the only force in 40k that actually has some code of honour when it comes to other human beings, or does it just seem that way....


----------



## ultramarine v2 (Nov 11, 2009)

i think its because their gene seed is so different, but then again they are still very vicious.

not true, alot of SM chapters are nice guys lol
i.e the salamanders on armagedon helping the locals etc and arguing with imperial commanders for nearly bombing civillian towns etc!


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Slamanders, Space Wolves, Soul Drinkers, and..... um...... thats it. The rest dont give a shit becuase of there Agendas, High Lords Lap Dogs, or Inquisitor Suck Ups.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I think the Astartes as a whole tend to show more affection for the ordinary Imperial citizen compared to the Inquisition for example, who happily sacrifice whole planetary populations even if the chance of taint is non-existant but could theoretically manifest.

Its arguably the Astartes (in M41) that are the ones who keep most to the original principles of the Imperium laid down by the Emperor. Most of Astartes Chapters (including all first founding chapters) don't worship the Emperor as a god, and havn't seemed to invest in the brutality and blatant disregard of human life that other Imperial organisations have.

Don't be so quick in condemning the methods of the Inquisition and the High Lords though. They do what they do because it is necessary for the survival of the status quo and the Imperium as we know it. Without such harsh methods, knowledge of Chaos and its subsequent taint would be much more wipespread and unchecked.


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Lets not forget the Blood Angels here. They might be just one step away from being Khorne Berzerkers, but they are the noblest chapter out there, and the worship of Sanguinius is second only to the Emperor, because of the belief that the little damage he could do in Horus' armour was just the vulnerable spot the Emperor needed to defeat Horus. 

The other chapter that requires mentioning here are the Imperial Fists. They have a reputation for being very polite and civilized, not to mention that they have a very-very-very strict sense of honour, which is of course a double-edged sword: it really is hard to earn their respect but once you do it lasts as long as you betray that respect.

About Space Wolves being good guys, they're superstitious space vikings who kill everything they or the Emperor doesn't like without thinking. I might be a rabid Thousand Sons fan, but this is something you'll have a hard time to prove me wrong about.

Otherwise, what CotE said. Word by word.


----------



## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

Read Wolf at the Door. SW are only good guys because they are slightly less murderous than everyone else. Space Wolves are good guys in the same way Beowulf is good guy. They are heroes, not neccessarily nice.

Salamanders however, are genuinely good. They grow up amongst humans, and actually understand humanity a lot more. In their novel, they come across (mostly) as very humanitarian and empathetic.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Define "Good".


----------



## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

I'd say they are heroic, rather than good.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Good, as in wont kill a entire planet becuase the Inquisition said so, or not give voice to the crappy treatment a population is receaving from the Planetary Govenor, or just running around and blowing 100 civilians away to kill 5 orks like some chapters did.

Space Puppies are actually pretty decent, They help out where they can and dont shun humanity or view them as weak like some Chapters do.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Good, as in wont kill a entire planet becuase the Inquisition said so


Or...

'good' as in sacrificing the populous of a single planet to prevent the spread of taint or corruption to entire sectors. Its the lesser of two evils. 

The Inquisition is necessary for the survival of the Imperium. Its 'positives' far out-weigh its 'negatives'.


----------



## Fumble Tumble (Oct 3, 2008)

hmm.... dark angels wouldnt really be up there for the "good" would they, all that deserting armies, just to kill one fallen dark angels, but hey "thats the way the cookie crumbles"


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

No army in 40k is entirely 'good' or 'evil', because 'good' and 'evil' are points of view. To us the DE torturing and murdering innocents and each other is 'evil', but to them it is perfectly acceptable behavior. Even the tau with all their talk of 'the greater good' are not entirely 'good', they essentially give enemies two choices; join us or we'll destroy you.

In conclusion: all armies are 'good' and 'evil'.


----------



## wwjd122400 (Dec 19, 2009)

Well I think we can agree Chaos Marines are evil...


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

*sigh*....


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

wwjd122400 said:


> Well I think we can agree Chaos Marines are evil...


Nope I wouldn't go that far at all.

'Misled' or 'Enlightened' (depending on perspective) might be more appropriate words.


----------



## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

Depends which Chaos Space Marines you're talking about. One thing chaos is NOT is homogenous.


----------



## Abomination (Jul 6, 2008)

They are relatively good compared to the brutality of of Imperial Organizations. The Space Marines as a whole seem to be at least somewhat concerned with the average human. You could also say the Tau are the only good guys as they at least give you a chance and don't just kill everything on sight.


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Thats settled I guess. 

Chaos is Chaotic Neutral if you ask me (and if you know D&D alignment charts). Remember that Tzeentch is also the god of hope, creativity, enthusiasm and buidling? That Nurgle is probably the friendliest of the Gods? Slaanesh doesn't count in this case because even though he fights for women's rights that doesn't mean he won't rape them. He rapes everything and everyone. Hes Rule 34 incarnate. So no, hes not friendly.  But he does support artists of all sorts, while Khorne is also a warrior god who despizes dishonourable acts on the battlefield and in general (like killing unarmed civilians, thats definately not going to earn you any medals). Though this might be correct in WHFB only, I'm not sure on this one.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Khorothis said:


> Remember that Tzeentch is also the god of hope, creativity, enthusiasm and buidling? That Nurgle is probably the friendliest of the Gods? Slaanesh doesn't count in this case because even though he fights for women's rights that doesn't mean he won't rape them. He rapes everything and everyone. Hes Rule 34 incarnate. So no, hes not friendly.  But he does support artists of all sorts, while Khorne is also a warrior god who despizes dishonourable acts on the battlefield and in general (like killing unarmed civilians, thats definately not going to earn you any medals). Though this might be correct in WHFB only, I'm not sure on this one.


We were talking about Chaos Marines not the Chaos Powers themselves though who have completley different motives and purposes to the traitor forces.

The Chaos Gods are elemental and natural forces in the galaxy. They are by no means 'evil'. Just as Earthquakes and Tsunami's are not evil.

They were created by mortals in their image. They represent Chaos, the extreme of a particular set of emotions. They are the manifestation of the unrestricted and unbound mortal mind. 

But to go by your analogies - Khorne doesn't despise dishonourable acts at all, he doesn't care from whence the blood flows, only that it does. In fact the illusion that he despises dishonourable acts (coupled with the promise of power and victory) is what draws people into Khornate worship intially.

Nurgle is said to be very nurturing yes, especially to his followers. He is the god of not only decay, but also rebirth. The inevitability of both life and death.

Tzeentch represents change in the extreme in all aspects. Hope is his neutral alignment because the emotion of hope represents change in every direction.

Slaanesh doesn't exactly support artists. Nor is he all about sex which everyone seems to assume, in fact that is barely a fraction of what he is about. The Dark Prince represents excess in absolutley everything.... everything. Anything that rouses the senses in anyway will be pushed onward and further by Slaanesh, who will tempt the follower to more extreme acts. 

The reason Slaanesh is commonly associated with artists is because art is a form of expression that can be pushed further and further into an act of excess. Art in a way is an initial starting point (under certain circumstances) into Slaaneshi worship - slowly pushing down the barriers of an ordered mind. Note the Remembrancer from the novel 'Fulgrim'.

Anyways I find myself going off topic again


----------



## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Papa nurgle is a good guy, sure he might make you sick from time to time, but hes just a gentle giant and he didn't mean it, but to say sorry he'll make you immune to all disease and give you nurglings to play with.


----------



## Jolly Puggles (Aug 4, 2009)

To suggest that any chapter of the Space Marines are "good" is just laughable. Orks are more "good" than Space Marines if only because they don't really kill on purpose; they're just in it for a bit of a rumble...it's not their fault that squishy 'umies aren't tough enough to take a choppa to the face and survive!

IMO, about the only "good" guys are the Eldar and that only because they're largely just trying to stay alive as best they can whilst upholding their traditions. They don't really have an agenda beyond that so at least they can claim that they only did it in self-defence (by and large). This obviously doesn't apply to some of the more militant craftworlds like Biel-Tan, but on the whole I think it applies.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Okay, let's look at it this way.

A system, which at the time of the Great Crusade was it's own master. They had a small empire, similar to what the Solar System is, in that the 8 Planets in the Terran system all contribute to one another, and traded peacefully with several, also peaceful land forms. They did however, have a well developed military, designed to repel the Orcs and other Aliens which sometimes raided them.

Then, suddenly, a huge great fleet of warships appears in the system, and says "we are your masters. You will now do everything we say, and give everything you own to a brand new system". 

It's like you'd been running a corner shop, and tesco saying we're now buying you, all your profits now come to us, and everything you do will be under our name. You are no longer a shop keeper, you are now a store manager, with advancement opportunities.

You're going to fight it aren't you? So, when your Defence Lasers power up, and shred a couple of ships, you suddenly see some Grey Drop Pods rain towards the planets. Suddenly, your normal humans are fighting against 20,000+ Super Human Warriors equipped with Rapid Firing Rocket launchers, and bullet proof armour, slaughtering everything that they can see, man woman and child, just because they wanted their own life.

Puggles - I'm not joking when I say that I, among others REALLY don't take kindly to those inferences. It's not funny, and you know those rules which you read before posting? Well guess what's in there.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Okay, let's look at it this way.
> 
> A system, which at the time of the Great Crusade was it's own master. They had a small empire, similar to what the Solar System is, in that the 8 Planets in the Terran system all contribute to one another, and traded peacefully with several, also peaceful land forms. They did however, have a well developed military, designed to repel the Orcs and other Aliens which sometimes raided them.
> 
> ...


Okay. The Imperium obviously couldn't and can't be described as 'good'.

But if we apply a bit of good 'ol Utilitarianism - 'Greatest good for the Greatest number' - We can argue that the Imperium (via the Emperor) was acting in a 'good' way according to the ultimate goal of 'Greastest good for the Greatest number (of humans!)' 

The Great Crusade was part of the Emperor's plan to weaken the Chaos Gods and loosen the shackles Chaos maintained around mankinds neck. By conquering the galaxy, uniting the vast majority if not all of humanity under his iron rule and forcing the Imperial Truth on everyone he was starving Chaos of worship, and granting humanity protection (from rogue psykers, and daemonic incursions etc).

The next stage of his plan was the Invasion of the Webway, thus freeing mankind from reliance on Warp Travel, also weakening Chaos' grasp.

If the Emperor was allowed to fulfil his plans its perfectly plausable that Chaos would have been weakened and the warp calmed to a degree. This in a sense could then be described as 'good'. As long as the end justifies the means of course.

But of course the Emperor's great ambitions have gone out the window by M41 and the Imperium has devolved into even more of a tyrannical and vile regime. But yes obviously as you implied the Imperium is not an organisation that could ever have been described as 'good'.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

But who says that the Emperor is good? Maybe he's some Evil cultist leader similar to what they Inquisition believe are the "cult" leaders of Chaos.


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

@CotE

I thought Slaanesh had a crush on painters too, I actually remember something like that in the Daemons Codex I think (not sure, I can't tell for certain if it was in a 40K book or WHFB). And that thing about Khorne, I remember reading someone's post saying that Khorne tends to punish weakling-slaughterers (meaning unarmed civilians again) by sending some Daemons after them, just so they knew that Khorne doesn't like the blood of the weak as much as that of the strong and worthy. Just wanted to make it clear I'm not reading it out of my palm or something. 

What I meant to imply with that post was that the Chaos Marines aren't too far from their gods, they, intentionally or not, follow the good old D&D "one step" rule (talking about the alignment chart here). Let me show you:

Chaotic Good: Those Space Marines of old who fought in the Great Crusade, plus their spiritual descendants. These men believe that the Emperor betrayed them and Horus should have been Emperor for the sake of mankind. They fight for an Empire of Chaos, much like Abaddon, not because they want to rule, but because they believe that Chaos is the best option for mankind. A bit like Honsu, I think. I know that this is a borderline type of Chaotic Good, but I think you get my drift.

Chaotic Neutral: same ambiguous mentality as the Chaos Gods. 'nuff said, I think.

Chaotic Evil: BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!! :grin:

True Neutral: Alpha Legion and possibly Night Lords, to provide some good examples. To them, Chaos is but a means to an end, while they have their own separate agenda. To them, evil and good, chaotic and lawful are all extremes that are needless burden upon one's soul. In short, they just want to get the job done, without morals involved.

@Vaz

Nah, the Emperor can't be a cultist, last time I heard his pronounciation was okay. :grin:

But seriously, when we're this high on the ladder of whats-good-or-not, things aren't black and white as down there. Things become detailed and complicated to the point that you start doubting if you're still the good guy. What the Emperor tried to do back then and maybe is still doing is similar to some extent to the hypothetical question of "If you could rid the world of all plagues and diseases by killing one innocent little girl, would you do it?". Problem is, the little girl had a gun and shot the Emperor in the lungs, but she didn't notice the frag grenade flying her way, so now the Emperor is almost dead and the little girl has trouble dying too. Thats why it'd be bad if the Emperor died once and for all: no one would be able to tell if the little girl died or not, because no one knows which little girl is the one that should die. Not to mention that the little girl might come back, rage incarnate, and butcher them all.


----------



## warsmith7752 (Sep 12, 2009)

yes they are 
:biggrin:
no im just joking space wolves always thrive to do the heroic thing they dont always do whats in theyre brain more whats in theyre hearts.
their viciousness comes from eagerness to prove themselves on the battle field









glory to the sons of russ


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Khorothis said:


> @CotE
> 
> I thought Slaanesh had a crush on painters too, I actually remember something like that in the Daemons Codex I think (not sure, I can't tell for certain if it was in a 40K book or WHFB).


I dont believe anything about Artists is in the Daemons Codex. But as I said the reason Slaanesh seems to promote artists is because of the expression it represents and the extremes to which it can lead and devolve into.



Khorothis said:


> And that thing about Khorne, I remember reading someone's post saying that Khorne tends to punish weakling-slaughterers (meaning unarmed civilians again) by sending some Daemons after them, just so they knew that Khorne doesn't like the blood of the weak as much as that of the strong and worthy. Just wanted to make it clear I'm not reading it out of my palm or something.


Older editions of the fluff portrayed Khorne as more of an honourable god who hated the weak and rewarded the strong. However with more recent editions he has simply become 'The Blood God' - caring only for wild slaughter and the flow of blood. 

Its in the latest Chaos Marines Codex actually. It states that people turn to Khorne because they believe that he is an honourable deity, and they worship him for the power to triumph over their foes. But as they get devolve further and further into Khornate worship they realise all too late that actually all he cares about is bloodshed, and he doesn't care how he gets it or where it comes from.


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

I don't like where Chaos is going. They used to be more than your typical terrorists and rabid lunatics in power armour. Just look at the four Chaos Lords of DoW: three out of four is a complete retard (though you could say that Crull was only authentic), only Eliphas behaves like hes supposed to. I hate to think that thanks to Failabaddon, Bale (SSIIIIINDDRRRIIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!), and Carron (METAL BOXES!!!) Chaos is going to be the second comic relief in 40K after the Orks. Not that I mind being the clown of the team, but Chaos isn't like that. Chaos is all about ambiguity, shady morals and principles, and to put it short, chaos.

Was the rest of my previous post rubbish, by the way? I thought it was thought provoking at the very least.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

I've never really got the whole goofy ork comedy. Black humour would seem more appropriate in the 40k universe. (eg: Spess Mehreen kills a mob of orks single handedly, in a truly epic and heroic way. Only to discover that the planet he's on is is about to be subjected to Exterminatus)


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Coz their diamond geezers, innit Charlie? Cor, flappin 'is gums like thank is gonna get 'im thomas the tanked.


----------



## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Good and evil are concepts that imply an objective morality. Now philosophers have argued about the objective and subjective nature of morality for thousands of years and its not going to be settled here. That said here are my thoughts.

the galaxy of 40K is so harsh and so brutal that anyone who is "good" by a modern 21st century standard went extinct a long time ago. The Tau come the closest and even they are communists, which some people in the 21st century would argue is objectively evil. 

Every faction and army in the 40k universe does horrible things to fulfill its own objective. For the Orks its about fun, the love of Waaagh. For chaos its about spreading their faith. For the Eldar its about survival based on the prophesies of the farseers. 

For the Space Marines, the Imperial Guard and the Inquisition (with the exception of the Ordo Hereticus) it is about protecting the human race from all those who would see its extinction. (For the Ordo Hereticus it is about protecting the Cult of the Emperor and enforcing the will of the Eclesiarchy.) To that end these organizations will do whatever is necessary to get the job done. 

The Inquisition might have different ideas then the Space Marines about the best means to get this done, but the end goal for both is the same.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Vaz said:


> But who says that the Emperor is good? Maybe he's some Evil cultist leader similar to what they Inquisition believe are the "cult" leaders of Chaos.


Indeed, of course that is entirely plausable 



Khorothis said:


> I don't like where Chaos is going. They used to be more than your typical terrorists and rabid lunatics in power armour. Just look at the four Chaos Lords of DoW: three out of four is a complete retard (though you could say that Crull was only authentic), only Eliphas behaves like hes supposed to. I hate to think that thanks to Failabaddon, Bale (SSIIIIINDDRRRIIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!), and Carron (METAL BOXES!!!) Chaos is going to be the second comic relief in 40K after the Orks. Not that I mind being the clown of the team, but Chaos isn't like that. Chaos is all about ambiguity, shady morals and principles, and to put it short, chaos.


What do you mean when you say you dont like where Chaos is going? 

Also tell me why you call Abaddon - Failabaddon?! I've never understood why people do!

The Principles of Chaos are purely Chaotic. The forces of Chaos don't have to act in rational ways what-so-ever. The Imperium may find a force of Chaos Marines running around in circles naked on a random planet, its totally irrational - but its plausable for the forces of Chaos.



Khorothis said:


> Was the rest of my previous post rubbish, by the way? I thought it was thought provoking at the very least.


No of course it wasn't 

But I've never been a fan of the D&D alignment system that seems to now pop up in most fantasy settings!



GabrialSagan said:


> the galaxy of 40K is so harsh and so brutal that anyone who is "good" by a modern 21st century standard went extinct a long time ago. The Tau come the closest and even they are communists, which some people in the 21st century would argue is objectively evil.


Indeed. Everything and Everyone has to adapt to survive in the 40k galaxy. If they try to behave 'morally' (by 21st Century standards) they would be destroyed and wiped off the map.

The Tau Empire is naive, and knows very little about the galaxy compared to the Imperium for example. Realistically we may see them forced to adapt and betray some of their morals/principles in the near future otherwise they may be crushed. Also they are nothing like communists really, and those 'some people' you refer to who describe communism as objectively evil are completley misguided and in some cases damn right stupid! (also there mostly American!)



GabrialSagan said:


> Every faction and army in the 40k universe does horrible things to fulfill its own objective. For the Orks its about fun, the love of Waaagh. For chaos its about spreading their faith. For the Eldar its about survival based on the prophesies of the farseers.
> 
> For the Space Marines, the Imperial Guard and the Inquisition (with the exception of the Ordo Hereticus) it is about protecting the human race from all those who would see its extinction. (For the Ordo Hereticus it is about protecting the Cult of the Emperor and enforcing the will of the Eclesiarchy.) To that end these organizations will do whatever is necessary to get the job done.
> 
> The Inquisition might have different ideas then the Space Marines about the best means to get this done, but the end goal for both is the same.


Indeed. As I said if the major races of the galaxy weren't willing to to what needed to be done to survive/expand they would not be a major power at all.


----------



## Shacklock (Dec 15, 2009)

Lol communism is evil? Capitalism is the greatest evil 
Anywho theres no good or evil in 40k, half the reason why its such a good setting.


----------



## Shacklock (Dec 15, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Coz their diamond geezers, innit Charlie? Cor, flappin 'is gums like thank is gonna get 'im thomas the tanked.


Orks are definatly on charlie, the buggers really should cut back.


----------



## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Okay, let's look at it this way.
> 
> A system, which at the time of the Great Crusade was it's own master. They had a small empire, similar to what the Solar System is, in that the 8 Planets in the Terran system all contribute to one another, and traded peacefully with several, also peaceful land forms. They did however, have a well developed military, designed to repel the Orcs and other Aliens which sometimes raided them.
> 
> ...



Isnt the goal of the Imperium to unite all of mankind?
Lets say this system was to be left alone, to grow and prosper as it saw fit without any intervention at all from the Imperium. They give nothing to the Imperium and the Imperium gives nothing to them.
They would live their happy little lives in peace and prosperity where human rights are valued above all else.

Then Hive Fleet WTFPWND shows up. You mean they would have the power to repel an entire hive fleet? Not to mention genestealer cults that might have been growing for a fiew hundred years.
The system is swallowed up by the hive fleet (or you telling me normal human beings, without power armor or the technology from the Imperium could defeat a hive fleet on their own?).
The hive mind thing drains all the planets of all their resources, air, water and biomass. It basically swallows up a fiew hundred billion people and animals gaining new bio information which might result in new bio morphs, stronger evolutions of Tyranids and a shitload more Tyranids as a whole.
It then moves on to the next place where it can find biomass, that much stronger and evolving.

Would you say the Imperium would have been wrong to simply just annihilate the system of all life to prevent this from happening to begin with?

The best quote I can give is from the DH codex.
"Do not presume to judge me or the methods I choose to employ, petty-minded fool. You cannot comprehend the magnitude of the task I have undertaken, nor the consequences of my failure.

I think this sums it up pretty well, the failure of an Inquisitor to stop a genestealer cult or a cult of chaos followers and what not can and will result in the system being swallowed up and destroyed or turning into a place of torture and grief.

What we consider human rights and common sence have no place what so ever in the 40k universe, it WOULD only result in the destruction and ruination of everything we know and hold dear.

Tyranids and Chaos would be happy though


----------



## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> No army in 40k is entirely 'good' or 'evil', because 'good' and 'evil' are points of view. To us the DE torturing and murdering innocents and each other is 'evil', but to them it is perfectly acceptable behavior. Even the tau with all their talk of 'the greater good' are not entirely 'good', they essentially give enemies two choices; join us or we'll destroy you.
> 
> In conclusion: all armies are 'good' and 'evil'.


Lol, you make it sound just like a certain president was rambling about things he did not understand a fiew years back.

"Youre either with or against us"
We dont know who or where the terrorists are, we have no proof of WMD but we BELIEVE they are in there somewhere. We just have to invade, torture and kill a fiew ppl and see where that gets us.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

MadCowCrazy said:


> Lol, you make it sound just like a certain president was rambling about things he did not understand a few years back.
> 
> "Youre either with or against us"
> We dont know who or where the terrorists are, we have no proof of WMD but we BELIEVE they are in there somewhere. We just have to invade, torture and kill a fiew ppl and see where that gets us.


What the fuck does this have to do with my opinion that 'good' and 'evil' are points of view? I'm just gonna assume you didn't read my post very carefully.

ps: I don't like being called ignorant.


----------



## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> What the fuck does this have to do with my opinion that 'good' and 'evil' are points of view? I'm just gonna assume you didn't read my post very carefully.
> 
> ps: I don't like being called ignorant.


Chill dude, I wasnt talking about you. I was making a joke about George Bush.
Trying to compare the Tau point of view with George Bushs point of view on the war on terror when they had little to no information at all about what was going on.
Trying to find similarities between the 40k universe and our own is relatively hard but this one was so obvious I thought Id bring it up.
Sheez, you sure are sensitive. Where exactly does it say that Im calling you ignorant? I dont get that at all?

Or you telling me you are George Bush? I didnt think he would play a game like 40k?
Arnt you from Australia? or is that a cover? hint hint. Chaos Space Marines on the other hand is an army I could see him playing


----------



## ajchafe (Aug 13, 2009)

Back to the original topic... 

How come nobody has even mentioned the Ultramarines? I believe Ultramar is described as a utopia, and pretty much the best place to live in the Imperium.


----------



## GiftofChaos1234 (Jan 27, 2009)

ajchafe said:


> Back to the original topic...
> 
> How come nobody has even mentioned the Ultramarines? I believe Ultramar is described as a utopia, and pretty much the best place to live in the Imperium.


but it's blue! Everything is blue!


----------



## army310 (Feb 11, 2010)

*Lone Wovles*



wwjd122400 said:


> Well I think we can agree Chaos Marines are evil...


LoL that is a under statement. But the Space Wovles In the comic Lone Wovles help out some IG. I think thats says alot about them.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I disagree with the statement that Chaos Marines on the whole are 'evil', in fact I'd go so far as to say that in general they're no more evil than Orks or even Imperial Space Marines. They act by their own twisted sense of honour and their aims (to begin with at least) are to better mankind- though some may have degenerated, perverting their original ideologies and truly falling to evil of course- even if the methods they have chosen seem detrimental in effect, it's the intent not the results that define you as evil.


----------



## army310 (Feb 11, 2010)

True but its not why they started on the course of evil but what they are now and yes Orks DE and some others are bad too.


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

GiftofChaos1234 said:


> but it's blue! Everything is blue!


Da-ba-dee-da-ba-dai? :mrgreen:

Nothing in the 40k universe is objectively good. Cookies all round!


----------



## Helvron (Jan 4, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Slamanders, Space Wolves, Soul Drinkers, and..... um...... thats it. The rest dont give a shit becuase of there Agendas, High Lords Lap Dogs, or Inquisitor Suck Ups.


The Black Templars have one agenda to kill the traitors to the emperor. the do not like the Inq, nor the High lords.

i would say they are Imperial citizen lovers, they show this by there service to the Emperor.


----------



## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

I think Warhammer 40K morality is a fun subject. Unlike other sci-fi series, I don't think 40K makes the tired argument "Good and evil are non-existent and entirely subjective." You might get borderline cases like the chaos gods, who are arguably "good taken to excess," but for the most part good and evil are recognized. Everyone just prefers evil.

There are very few organizations, entities, and even individuals in the 40K universe that aren't complete and total bastards with few if any redeemable qualities. The Imperium is needlessly xenophobic, oppressive, and corrupt. The Eldar are arrogant, self-justifying bastards willing to sacrifice millions to save a handful. Chaos trades freedom for insanity and abject servitude to an incomprehensible higher power. The dark eldar are literally an entire faction dedicated to sadism for personal gain. Even the tau, arguably the "purest" race of the lot, enforce their doctrine of self-sacrifice through a form of mind control.

The few people that could be described as mostly good, such as the grey knights and the Space Wolves, either have flaws so grandiose it'd make a tragic hero look like a Mary Sue or are doomed to die miserably in the cold, corrupt galaxy.


----------



## Shacklock (Dec 15, 2009)

army310 said:


> LoL that is a under statement. But the Space Wovles In the comic Lone Wovles help out some IG. I think thats says alot about them.


Some still believe in the vision of Horus and honestly think uniting humanity behind the Chaos Gods will make it stronger.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Of all the races its the Orks and Tyranids I see as being the least 'evil'- they're more akin to a natural force than a civilisation choosing a moral or immoral path, the opposite to their place on the scale of things would, in my opinion, be the Necons and Dark Eldar who choose to commit acts of unspeakable sadism and genocide.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Most of Astartes Chapters (including all first founding chapters) don't worship the Emperor as a god.


I'm still under the notion that they do, and in my opinion they do everything that defines worship except using the term God in a direct manner.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Of all the races its the Orks and Tyranids I see as being the least 'evil'- they're more akin to a natural force than a civilisation choosing a moral or immoral path, the opposite to their place on the scale of things would, in my opinion, be the Necons and Dark Eldar who choose to commit acts of unspeakable sadism and genocide.



By your reasoning, the Orks and Tyranids are doing what they were designed to do but let's not forget that the Necrons are slaves and have no control over their actions.

The Dark Eldar do what they do to survive, seeing as how they lack the souls stones of their brethren.

I'd say the Necrons and Dark Eldar are more innocent in a sense than the Orks and Tyranids for they do what they do out of necessity or due to a lack of free will and at least deserve an equal amount of sympathy?



K3k3000 said:


> The Eldar are arrogant, self-justifying bastards willing to sacrifice millions to save a handful. Chaos trades freedom for insanity and abject servitude to an incomprehensible higher power. The dark eldar are literally an entire faction dedicated to sadism for personal gain. Even the tau, arguably the "purest" race of the lot, enforce their doctrine of self-sacrifice through a form of mind control.
> .


The Eldar are not human and so that gives them some reason as to why they would place their own species ontop of another, especially one whose own leaders casually execute en masse without a second glance. At least the Eldar have a more sound reason for any time they massacre millions of humans to preserve their dwindling race.

The Dark Eldar do what they do to survive, which is somewhat of a personal gain but I would say their other activities, assassinations within their own ranks for example would be more of an example of their dedication to personal gain.

The Tau embrace their enemies within their own fold, only denying them the right to live if they do not accept joining their ranks upon defeat. That's a fair compromise and humans who chose to live amongst them seem to be doing ok if I'm not mistaken and are considered citizens of an alien empire. Something the Imperium would never consider.


----------



## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

I think we are all forgetting that the IG, =I= and SM are not the same thing as those who control the Imperium it's self. 

Most of the members of these groups are just honest soldiers fighting to protect humanity the best you can. Your typical everyday space marine has no evil plots to enslave mankind for his own will, kill innocents and subjugated worlds. But in his attempt to fight the most horrifying evils in the universe, sometimes he kills innocents. This isn't necessarily his fault, since he isn't always given the choice, opportunities or information he might need to have done something better. 

Saying the Inquisition is evil because they have wiped out a few worlds ignores the fact of how many worlds they have saved. Saying a single Space Marine is evil because their campaigns are sometimes fought for the wrong reason is like saying that a run of the mill Marine in Vietnam was evil just because the war was misguided. 

I don't think any of the human armies are evil.


----------



## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

> The Eldar are not human and so that gives them some reason as to why they would place their own species ontop of another, especially one whose own leaders casually execute en masse without a second glance. At least the Eldar have a more sound reason for any time they massacre millions of humans to preserve their dwindling race.


Attempting to preserve your dying race is an admirable goal, but that doesn't justify the murder of millions of "innocents," insofar as anything in the 40K universe is innocent. Killing something because "it's not like me" is rarely, if ever, an ethic decision.



> The Dark Eldar do what they do to survive, which is somewhat of a personal gain but I would say their other activities, assassinations within their own ranks for example would be more of an example of their dedication to personal gain.


The dark eldar are sadists who revel in torture. Whether or not this is done for survival is irrelevent, it can't be described as a moral act. Killing someone whose directly threatening you is acceptable. Killing someone who isn't a threat to you to increase your own lifespan is not acceptable. Remember, most of the eldar sort of brought it upon themselves.



> The Tau embrace their enemies within their own fold, only denying them the right to live if they do not accept joining their ranks upon defeat. That's a fair compromise and humans who chose to live amongst them seem to be doing ok if I'm not mistaken and are considered citizens of an alien empire. Something the Imperium would never consider.


The Tau are definitely the most moral of the races from what we've seen, and humans who join their fold may be happier than they were in the Imperium. The rumors of the Ethereal caste dominating the tau race through pheromones, however, indicates that they're far from "good."


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

K3k3000 said:


> Attempting to preserve your dying race is an admirable goal, but that doesn't justify the murder of millions of "innocents," insofar as anything in the 40K universe is innocent. Killing something because "it's not like me" is rarely, if ever, an ethic decision.


It is ethical when viewed in comparison to how the Imperium treats its own subjects when it comes to _exterminatus _




K3k3000 said:


> The dark eldar are sadists who revel in torture. Whether or not this is done for survival is irrelevent, it can't be described as a moral act. Killing someone whose directly threatening you is acceptable. Killing someone who isn't a threat to you to increase your own lifespan is not acceptable. Remember, most of the eldar sort of brought it upon themselves.


If Slaanesh's hunger could be warded off by being super nice to all forms of life, the DE would be doing just that. They're only what they are as a result of Slaanesh. 

I read a post somewhere that the Dark Eldar were the Eldar furthest away from the hedonistic aspects of their society pre-fall, the latter being the most heavily hedonistic.



K3k3000 said:


> The Tau are definitely the most moral of the races from what we've seen, and humans who join their fold may be happier than they were in the Imperium. The rumors of the Ethereal caste dominating the tau race through pheromones, however, indicates that they're far from "good."


The Eldar apparently caused the ethereals to dominate the rest via implanted pheromones (as seen in xenology) and it's similar to how the emperor/high lords control the masses. It's all about keeping the race, naive to the dangers of the universe, alive by any means possible.


----------



## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> It is ethical when viewed in comparison to how the Imperium treats its own subjects when it comes to _exterminatus _


An evil act that's morally superior to a heinously evil act is still an evil act. The eldar are not a good people, nor are they meant to be seen as such.



> If Slaanesh's hunger could be warded off by being super nice to all forms of life, the DE would be doing just that. They're only what they are as a result of Slaanesh.


And Slaanesh exists as a result of what the eldar did. Surviving against an aggressive force isn't the same thing as surviving at the expense of others. If I kill an enemy who's attacking me, I am in the moral right. If I kill an innocent to extend my own lifespan, I have commited an unjust act.

Also, I have yet to find any source that says a dark eldar must torture their victims in order to reap their souls. Certainly we can all agree that torture for the sake of sadism is a horrific act?



> I read a post somewhere that the Dark Eldar were the Eldar furthest away from the hedonistic aspects of their society pre-fall, the latter being the most heavily hedonistic.


Nah, the dark eldar are the surviving hedonist cultists. The eldar furthest away from the fall were the exodites and the craftworld eldar.



> The Eldar apparently caused the ethereals to dominate the rest via implanted pheromones (as seen in xenology) and it's similar to how the emperor/high lords control the masses. It's all about keeping the race, naive to the dangers of the universe, alive by any means possible.


I'm not saying they aren't _necessary_ evils, but they're evils nonetheless. The Imperium is a corrupt, bloodthirsty organization because they sort of have to be to survive (it'd be less vital if they just dropped their damn progress-taboo and xenophobia, but that's neither here nor there). Same goes for the eldar and the tau. Does that make it _right_? Absolutely not. Does that make it _justifiable_? Arguably, but those two things aren't even remotely similar to one another.


----------



## Shacklock (Dec 15, 2009)

At the end of the day our moras and ethics come from our current culture they arent by any means universal, its all relative which to a certain degree makes this kind of pointless ;p


----------



## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Shacklock said:


> At the end of the day our moras and ethics come from our current culture they arent by any means universal, its all relative which to a certain degree makes this kind of pointless ;p


I disagree. If human beings truly thought morals and ethics were completely subjective, we wouldn't bother having morals and ethics. Why concern yourself with a petty and superficial code of conduct when it's ultimately easier and more enjoyable to do what you want, when you want, and damn the consequences? Because most human beings sincerely believe in their own set of principles, and while the smaller details are often squabbled over, there is a consensus over the bigger issues (murder, theft) so widespread that it borders the universal.

I believe the 40K universe is meant to be seen as thus: black and white are absolute and it is the people that are morally ambiguous. This is what makes the 40K universe so compelling compared to other sci-fi universes. Most characters and nearly every faction knowingly, unwittingly, or in their delusions pick evil to either further their own means or ensure some basic survival for themselves or their species.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Good and evil are what you make of them, they are not absolute. What one person judges to be good another might not. What another believes to be evil another may not. Some might believe that there is no just reason for killing another human being while others would believe that killing certain people to be good, using animals as lab subjects to be evil some believe it to be good and so on and so forth.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Good and evil are what you make of them, they are not absolute. What one person judges to be good another might not. What another believes to be evil another may not. Some might believe that there is no just reason for killing another human being while others would believe that killing certain people to be good, using animals as lab subjects to be evil some believe it to be good and so on and so forth.


Well put sir.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

:thank_you:


----------



## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Good and evil are what you make of them, they are not absolute. What one person judges to be good another might not. What another believes to be evil another may not. Some might believe that there is no just reason for killing another human being while others would believe that killing certain people to be good, using animals as lab subjects to be evil some believe it to be good and so on and so forth.


Again, I disagree. Social norms and mores are constantly put to the test as progressive, intellectual societies strive to reach the pinnacle of righteousness. Why should women have sufferage when subjugating them is so much more beneficial for men? Because women are human beings and it's morally wrong to deprive them of this and any fundamental human right. Why should those of opportunity live equally with the oppressed when there is wealth and status to be gained from stepping on the little people? Because humility, charity, and equality are widely recognized virtues. Whether it is determined by a truly enlightened society or a higher power, morality is either objective or on its way to becoming objective as the true moral potential of humanity is discovered, analyzed, critiqued, and applied. :victory:

That being said, the true nature of our universe is irrelevant. The 40K universe is completely different, with laws that operate in fundamentally alien ways. Who's to say good and evil aren't absolute when chaos itself is embodied by daemons? Literal gods exist in the warp as semi-tangible manifestations of corrupted human emotion. As it relates to Warhammer, saying good and evil don't truly exist is as absurd as saying chaos doesn't truly exist.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

If the fundamental laws that govern the universe are different then it would make the two fundamentally different. If the 40k universe is simply a continuance of our own then I believe that the two would be interrelated there for the laws governing them would be the same. Chaos exists, but does chaos see what it does as evil? No. The imperium frequently participates in the whole sale slaughter of millions of souls yet do they consider what they do evil? To them it is good, stopping the taint is good. Yet would the space wolves consider it to be evil to kill millions? Obviously they would, therefore I submit that they are not absolutes.


----------



## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> If the fundamental laws that govern the universe are different then it would make the two fundamentally different. If the 40k universe is simply a continuance of our own then I believe that the two would be interrelated there for the laws governing them would be the same.


The laws governing them would be the same ..? So because GW created a sci-fi setting that takes place in an alternate future of our own universe, they have retroactively retooled our world to function under the same laws as Warhammer? I can't say I'm following your logic. The two universes are clearly governed by different laws; they have a warp, we do not. It is possible for Warhammer entities to defy physics, it is not possible for real humans to defy physics. 



> Chaos exists, but does chaos see what it does as evil? No. The imperium frequently participates in the whole sale slaughter of millions of souls yet do they consider what they do evil? To them it is good, stopping the taint is good. Yet would the space wolves consider it to be evil to kill millions? Obviously they would, therefore I submit that they are not absolutes.


Whoever said a person needs to admit to unethical behavior in order for them to be evil? Bad people aren't mustachioed villains who dress in all black, cackle manically, and stalk the countryside in search for women and children to harass. 

Well, okay, sometimes they are. But not always.

I can go around stealing from banks and sucker punching babies and call myself a saint. Does that mean I'm a virtuous person? No, it means I'm bloody delusional. If you commit mass genocide, you're a bad person. It doesn't matter if you recognize it or not, you still are. You can cover your ears, close your eyes, and hum "LALALA" until the cows come


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Yes but you judge those acts by your own conscious. And we weren't talking about science. If we were most of the 40k universe would be out the window. We are talking about morals and ethics which they seem to have and so do we. Morals and ethics are determined by society. Meaning what one person judges to be morally upright or ethical another might consider to be the quintessence of evil.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Would you consider a terrorist who detonates a bomb in a crowd of helpless citizens or the Nazis to be evil? I'm sure you would but would they? The Nazis however believed that those who they slaughtered were evil and vile sub-creatures and the terrorist that those who he butchers are fowl heretics and that they have no right to live. So what is the difference? Their morals and ethics, morals and ethics are what determine good and evil.


----------



## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Yes but you judge those acts by your own conscious. And we weren't talking about science. If we were most of the 40k universe would be out the window. We are talking about morals and ethics which they seem to have and so do we. Morals and ethics are determined by society. Meaning what one person judges to be morally upright or ethical another might consider to be the quintessence of evil.


Okay, so we're back to talking about morality. Now that we're both on the same page:



gen.ahab said:


> Would you consider a terrorist who detonates a bomb in a crowd of helpless citizens or the Nazis to be evil? I'm sure you would but would they? The Nazis however believed that those who they slaughtered were evil and vile sub-creatures and the terrorist that those who he butchers are fowl heretics and that they have no right to live. So what is the difference? Their morals and ethics, morals and ethics are what determine good and evil.


This is essentially the perfect counter-argument to subjective morality, and it's one I haven't brought up because I felt it far too gauche to do so. By accepting that morals are superficial constructs of society, we condone every single act committed by any individual or organization. Using the subjective moral argument, am I in the right for committing genocide simply because I feel it's my moral obligation? If I were so inclined, what right would you or anyone have to impose your own, equally subjective moral system over mine? If I knew such an individual and it was within my power to oppose them, I would. I'd know I was in the right even as the morally bankrupt mistakes delusion for virtue.

Subjective morality postulates that the worth of an individual is determined by how lax their conscience is, that a man who sets fire to the world just to watch it burn is righteous and just for no other reason than he feels he is. In reality, he and all the other scenarios you mentioned are in the wrong, because they defy a quintessential aspect of humanity that is far more common and accepted than most people are willing to believe.

Again, I feel a variation of my beliefs are present within the 40K universe. I firmly believe that in Warhammer, good and evil are either absolute or clearly definable. The fact that none of the galaxy's inhabitants are able or willing to distinguish between the two is meant to be indicative of the corrupt nature of their world, and it makes the handful of truly selfless, altruistic acts all the more meaningful and poignant.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I wouldn't condone such acts but I am merely a product of my upbringing. I believe also that good and evil are simply artificial constructs created by man. The only thing that would give them deeper meaning is some sort of creature entity(god) without whom I don't believe they have any true meaning because without repercussions well ….they are nothing more than words. I believe that most societies derive their sense of good and evil from their religious teaching. I also believe each person has his or her own idea as to what is either "good" or "evil." I don't believe things are just black and white but that they are gray. I also believe that this is a fruitless endeavor as it would seem as though neither of us seem to be gaining any ground. I also believe that neither of us is contributing directly to the topic matter which is whether or not there are any "good" factions exist in 40k. From me personal perspective I believe that space marines and eldar, perhaps maybe even tau, would be considered "good" in the typical sense.


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

aaahhh.... tooo much words.... my brain is mushy. :scare: icknose:


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

But even though Nazi's did kill people, they knew killing is bad right? as all people should know that no matter which culture or religion you come from.... and this might shed some light to discussion: "Sometimes more thorough attempts will also be made to describe the origin of evil and how it might tend to come into existence as well. Those attempts will sometimes fall under the category of describing as false various forms of goodness. Among some schools of thought, the idea is put forth that all evil comes from the excessive pursuit of goods of lesser value, at the expense of goods of greater value. For instance, greed derives from the pursuit of gain for one's self, generally a good thing, at the expense of others, generally a bad thing. Overeating may result from the exchange of momentary pleasure derived from the eating of food, for the greater good of long-term health. In psychology similar processes might occur in the formation of various types of addictions. No particular thing is thus considered to be intrinsically bad automatically, but rather evil will come from the pursuit of various goods in excess, to the expense of other more important ones, which are then neglected."


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

All humans are greedy all humans are selfish. No one does anything simply for the betterment of others. No they thought what they were doing was right.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> All humans are greedy all humans are selfish. No one does anything souly for for the betterment of others. No they thought what they were doing was right.


yeah that freudian crap is bs



K3k3000 said:


> Also, I have yet to find any source that says a dark eldar must torture their victims in order to reap their souls. Certainly we can all agree that torture for the sake of sadism is a horrific act?


I read somewhere in one of the dark eldar fluff topics that the current DE leader discovered that when he kidnapped some humans and subjected them to tortue, it managed to distract slannesh's hunger from their souls to the agony of the humans being tortured. I think the big Child of the E backed that up too


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

So Egocentrics run rampant in the world and 40k? haha, we do live in a grim universe after all. Thinking your right when you hear someone say your wrong is based on opinions, but how you take action on your opinions in face of evidence of your wrong doing in light to how others see it may differ.... Is right and "good" defined by how the majority see's it or the individual?


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

"Good" may be blurred though in this situation: Does a wolf that kills a bunny for food count as being evil or good? he needed food to survive, so that would mean it was a necessity to perform such a action to continue survival at the cost of a poor bunnies life? or a religious fanatic who killed a important political figure just so that he could free his people from said person's tyranny? was he doing a good act? is doing two wrongs to make a right, good? is doing a lesser wrong to bring about a greater good in its own justified? haha. man, good thing i'm taking a Psych/Sociology and morality class. lol


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

i forgot which side i'm argueing for. >>..<< lol


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Malus, I believe you are referring to psychology, excellent argument btw. And it’s true. Admittedly there are a few exceptions. Yes dre, "good" and "evil" is defined by society.


----------



## Helvron (Jan 4, 2010)

the Imp and Sm are good, because they fight for the emperor, Anyone who says otherwise is a Heretical traitor in need of a bolt round to the face.... Dre.


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

O.O :suicide:


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Thank you for that hal...... I quite literally went into maniacal laughter. :crazy:


----------



## Helvron (Jan 4, 2010)

Ahab, i didn't know i was Hal? 







Hello Dave.​
i was thinking about the scene from the DOW 2 intro where the SM commander shoots the warp Spider in the face after he kills the Devisator.
epic fail, Eldar farsight at its best, never saw it comin'


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I personally am quite fond of the part where the giant walking house sized hunk of metal erupted from the hillside and promptly proceeded to crisp the little loud eldars faces. :laugh:


----------



## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> I wouldn't condone such acts but I am merely a product of my upbringing. I believe also that good and evil are simply artificial constructs created by man. The only thing that would give them deeper meaning is some sort of creature entity(god) without whom I don't believe they have any true meaning because without repercussions well ….they are nothing more than words. I believe that most societies derive their sense of good and evil from their religious teaching. I also believe each person has his or her own idea as to what is either "good" or "evil." I don't believe things are just black and white but that they are gray. I also believe that this is a fruitless endeavor as it would seem as though neither of us seem to be gaining any ground. I also believe that neither of us is contributing directly to the topic matter which is whether or not there are any "good" factions exist in 40k. From me personal perspective I believe that space marines and eldar, perhaps maybe even tau, would be considered "good" in the typical sense.


I agree, we seem to have reached an impasse and have both begun to repeat ourselves _ad nauseum_. Still, though, we've managed to have a whole debate resulting in a peaceful climax without either side dipping into petty, immature insults. This unprecedented phenomenon alone calls for some sort of celebration, even if it's just the quiet, contemplative kind.



Malus Darkblade said:


> I read somewhere in one of the dark eldar fluff topics that the current DE leader discovered that when he kidnapped some humans and subjected them to tortue, it managed to distract slannesh's hunger from their souls to the agony of the humans being tortured. I think the big Child of the E backed that up too


I'm certainly not going to argue against Big E without at least two different fluff sources backing me up, so I'll concede to that.


----------



## Shacklock (Dec 15, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> yeah that freudian crap is bs


Not really, a good act is always motivated primarily by selfish means. Whether it be to directly benefit yourself or to ease your conscience or to impress some deity and thus further benefit yourself etc.


----------



## Iistaan Venturian (Feb 11, 2010)

They're "good" in the same sense that the Tau are good. Everyone in the 40k universe consists almost entirely of evil dicks. The Tau, Space Wolves, and a few choice others are examples of those that are just slightly less evil than everyone else.


----------



## Shacklock (Dec 15, 2009)

Throwing around concepts like good and evil is also a bit silly 

Space Wolves are just complicated people enthralled to some ignorent tradition.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Shacklock said:


> Not really, a good act is always motivated primarily by selfish means. Whether it be to directly benefit yourself or to ease your conscience or to impress some deity and thus further benefit yourself etc.


Finally, a man who gets it, thank you! Lol +rep!


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

K3k3000 said:


> I agree, we seem to have reached an impasse and have both begun to repeat ourselves _ad nauseum_. Still, though, we've managed to have a whole debate resulting in a peaceful climax without either side dipping into petty, immature insults. This unprecedented phenomenon alone calls for some sort of celebration, even if it's just the quiet, contemplative kind.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm certainly not going to argue against Big E without at least two different fluff sources backing me up, so I'll concede to that.


Well.... in that case cheers. :drinks:


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Shacklock said:


> Not really, a good act is always motivated primarily by selfish means. Whether it be to directly benefit yourself or to ease your conscience or to impress some deity and thus further benefit yourself etc.



I am aware of that school of thought, but no I don't agree with it nor is it absolute.


----------



## Shacklock (Dec 15, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I am aware of that school of thought, but no I don't agree with it nor is it absolute.


Fair enough, but can you honestly give me an example that defeats it?
Slight derailment of topic, sorry


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Shacklock said:


> Not really, a good act is always motivated primarily by selfish means. Whether it be to directly benefit yourself or to ease your conscience or to impress some deity and thus further benefit yourself etc.


that is not entirely true. There have been good acts of total disregard to ones self, were one puts there life on the line to help those in need even at the cost of their own life, well-being, and they do it almost spontaneously with no chance of rethought or conscience debate. When those acts are done there is no self benefits and no rewards but the idea that a good outcome will be obtained through such actions and hence does not benefit the person at all personally, in the mind or will or thought. That is what true unselfishness means. An good act done for oneself is not a unselfish act and might not even be a good act if the outcome ends up harming a situation further.


----------



## Shacklock (Dec 15, 2009)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> that is not entirely true. There have been good acts of total disregard to ones self, were one puts there life on the line to help those in need even at the cost of their own life, well-being, and they do it almost spontaneously with no chance of rethought or conscience debate. When those acts are done there is no self benefits and no rewards but the idea that a good outcome will be obtained through such actions and hence does not benefit the person at all personally, in the mind or will or thought. That is what true unselfishness means. An good act done for oneself is not a unselfish act and might not even be a good act if the outcome ends up harming a situation further.


I suppose such matyr like acts are done, as you say in the hopes of their action swaying something into what that person believes to be a positive outcome, but you could argue that thats still selfish to a degree. The act is done with the intent to influence an event that person believes sufficently important. Though past this point the argument becomes semantics methinks


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

haha, Shacklock- yes, it would turn into a battle of semantics. lol
but for the sake of the arguement: lets define Selfish shall we?


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Here's a wiki definition of selfish: 
(dont take this too seriously, i just want to put a basis on what that term is used)

Selfishness denotes the precedence given in thought or deed to the self, i.e., self interest or self concern. It is the act of placing one's own needs or desires above the needs or desires of others.
Psychologist and primatologist Frans de Waal takes issue with those who equate "selfishness" with "self-serving." He argues that "Selfishness implies the intention to serve oneself, hence knowledge of what one stands to gain from a particular behavior".[1] (2009, 13).
Selfishness is the opposite of altruism (selflessness).
The implications of selfishness have inspired divergent views within religious, philosophical, psychological, economic and evolutionary contexts.


----------



## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Any debate that devolves into the discussion of the definition of a particular word has run it's course.


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

haha, no i just ment it as means of clearing up some misunderstanding of the term.


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

But to get back on topic: i think there are other "Good" people in the 40k universe.
Ibram Gaunt, T'au (maybe), Eldar (somewhat), Certain Space Marines in the 40k literature (Loken, Uriel). thats about it from the top of my head.


----------



## xGhost4000x (Feb 14, 2010)

Space Wolves good guys? I've hated them ever since Horus convinced Leman Russ to kill Magnus rather than bring him before the Emperor.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

They're just a little excitable, that’s all. I admit my beloved space puppies can be a bit............ silly sometimes but it is all for the best. And yeah the thousand sons were the tragedy, or one of the tragedies, of the heresy but Horus was more to blame for that. The space wolves hated psykers more than almost anything at that point. If you read battle for the abyss it will give you a lot of insight into the space wolves pre-heresy views toward psykers.


----------



## ChaosSpaceMarineGuy (Jan 29, 2010)

Being a 'good guy' depends on whose eyes you are looking through.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> The space wolves hated psykers more than almost anything at that point.


No they didn't, they employed Psykers during the Great Crusade.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No they didn't, they employed Psykers during the Great Crusade.


Ya they did. I know you have read battle for the abyss, atleast I think you have. Yhe space wolves absolutly hated "whitches."


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

That's because the Space Wolves are hypocrites- they condemn psykers as witches but at the same time they use Rune Priests who are psykers, and they give those same Rune Priests a great deal of respect.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> That's because the Space Wolves are hypocrites- they condemn psykers as witches but at the same time they use Rune Priests who are psykers, and they give those same Rune Priests a great deal of respect.


I believe after the Council of Nikaea they didn't use rune priests and that might be when their hatred toward them went into full swing.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> I believe after the Council of Nikaea they didn't use rune priests and that might be when their hatred toward them went into full swing.


Its hard to say really.



Many people throughout the Imperium speculated that several legions (not only the Thousand Sons) wouldn't strictly obey the Edicts of Nikaea. Aside from that I always assumed that only sorcery was banned at Nikaea, not Librarians and Psykers in general - However _A Thousand Sons_ tells us that Librarians and other Psykers were banned, not just sorcerers/sorcery. I havn't quite finished the book yet, but Librarians and Rune Priests are in use in M41 so there must be some other development later on in the book which justifies this.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Agreed, I'm just saying that they weren't during that part of the heresy.


----------



## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> That's because the Space Wolves are hypocrites- they condemn psykers as witches but at the same time they use Rune Priests who are psykers, and they give those same Rune Priests a great deal of respect.


Aye but at the time of the heresy the space wolves believed that the rune priests powers came frm the winds of Fenris. A thusand Sons really does shed light on the mentality of both legions towards psykers and suggests the space wolves ignorance to the true nature of a rune priest powers.

I will spill no more however I think ignorance is very different from hypocrisy

As for the good guys meh ... they are barbaric yet loyal... just yet bloodthirsty. I think they have as many faults as any other legion.

By the way I'd just like to say I dnt believe the space wolves to be as powerful as people including Abnett have portrayed them to be... but for extenuating circumstanceds (those that have finished it will understand) the thousand sons would have torn them too shreds. Maybe I'm wrong but I dont think the kill another legion argument works with the release of A thousand Sons.


----------



## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

The Space Wolves don't look like 'good guys' to me in 'A Thousand Sons'...


----------



## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

There are no "good guys", everyone has a different perspective of "good".

Therefore Tyranids would be good because they have no free will; they are forced to devour planets.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Tyranids would be blank. They are animals so you couldn't consider them to be either good or evil.


----------



## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

DestroyerHive said:


> Therefore Tyranids would be good because they have no free will; they are forced to devour planets.





gen.ahab said:


> Tyranids would be blank. They are animals so you couldn't consider them to be either good or evil.


To my understanding, tyranids are neither without free will nor "animal" so as long as they are connected to the hive mind. Being part of a hive doesn't mean you don't have free will, it just means you all share the same mind. The hive mind is the individual, and all the tyranid are like cells within it. Regardless of your perspective on the nature of good and evil, very few people could consider the tyranid evil. Eating to survive is just a basic part of being alive, right?


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

K3k3000 said:


> To my understanding, tyranids are neither without free will nor "animal" so as long as they are connected to the hive mind. Being part of a hive doesn't mean you don't have free will, it just means you all share the same mind. The hive mind is the individual, and all the tyranid are like cells within it. Regardless of your perspective on the nature of good and evil, very few people could consider the tyranid evil. Eating to survive is just a basic part of being alive, right?


Right which is why I referred to them as animals, they consume to survive. They are neither good nor are they evil, they simply are.


----------



## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

The Hive Mind is a vast and terrible animal. To humanity it is evil. Since we are humans, we don't really need to concern ourselves with Tyranid conceptions of morality do we?

Just because morality is relative, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


----------



## Shacklock (Dec 15, 2009)

Well, its a concept made up by humans to help us make sense of the world around us.


----------



## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Right which is why I referred to them as animals, they consume to survive. They are neither good nor are they evil, they simply are.


I thought you were referring to tyranid as animals in the bestial, intellectual sense. The hive mind is capable of making crafty, informed decisions, even if it's only to suit one goal. But yes, in that its motivations are entirely basic and rudimentary, it could be described as an animal.


----------



## dardle reesraf (Oct 31, 2009)

back to the subject, i dont believe the space wolves are the *only* "good" guys. as a friend of mine says: "space wolves are the adeptus astartes equivalent of orks. the are barbaric, really tall, and they only have respect for their direct leader (the emperor). however, unlike the orks, they actually honour their allies (except dark angels), and wont kill thier leader to gain power" so, i dont know if they are good as such they just have a sense of right and wrong, unlike other chapters, who cant think for themselves as well as the sw can.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

dardle reesraf said:


> however, unlike the orks, they actually honour their allies (except dark angels), and wont kill thier leader to gain power" so, i dont know if they are good as such they just have a sense of right and wrong, unlike other chapters, who cant think for themselves as well as the sw can.


Don't for get the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition. Not the best of friends with them either.:laugh:


----------

