# Tomb Kings - What's the right size for a block of spear-skellies?



## Madlister (Feb 17, 2012)

In my ongoing quest to become as well-educated as possible about all things Tomb Kings before making gaudy army purchases, I'm trying to lock down the backbone of the army first - the Core choices. 

As I'm wanting to go magic heavy with eleventybillionteen power dice worth of wizard levels in Liche Priests / High Liche Priests, I'm wondering if blocks of skeletons with spears might be a wiser choice than the horse / chariot heavy builds. 

I still fully intend to support things with chariot units - because, who wouldn't?

But I'm wondering what would be an idea size for a unit (or two) of spear wielding skeletons who can act as tar pit / bait, as well as provide a little sucker punch with a counter-attack boosted by magic giving Killing Blow, maybe the 4++ augment (((EDIT - 5+ Ward, sorry for the original mistake))), among other things the casters can do to support them. 

The 4++ (((EDIT - 5+ Ward, sorry for the original mistake))) coupled with the Lore of Nehekhara's perk of regenerating wounds (though admittedly less efficient than VC armies can do) sounds good on paper. 

How big would this unit need to be to serve its purpose?

40 strong? 50?

Bonus points to replies that provide reasoning as to why.


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## Ratvan (Jun 20, 2011)

I'm not too well versed on the TK book having only ever played against a chariot/horsemen list.

For a tarpit unit ideally you will want to go narrow frontage and deep units so 40 is probably bare minimum, if you have to pay points for shields I would go with spears and just get more models, you can always regenerate your loses.

I would personally consider HW & S option myself for the 6+ parry save to make your tarpit that more sticky as they are a cheap model (i'm assuming) this will limit your attacks back but coupled with the potential for a failed fear test (making opponants strike at WS1) then you have a chance to further reduce casulties taken and keep that key enemy unit held in place


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## Madlister (Feb 17, 2012)

Ack! Didn't proof read well enough. That's a 5+ Ward Save granted by the spell (Neru's Incantation of Protection). Not a 4+, sorry for the bad proof reading. 

I'm definitely also considering HW+S as well. Just that much cheaper than Spears, to add more ranks. They can also have light armor, but I may just try to balance it out with the spell granting the unit a ward save and adding in the special Lore of Nehekhara bonus (regen D3+1 Wounds worht of models when a successful augment is cast). 

And yes, they're pretty cheap. Not sure if I'm allowed to post points costs here or not though or I'd toss that in the mix as something else toward the discussion of unit size.


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## Madlister (Feb 17, 2012)

I guess it's worth bringing up whether it's more worthwhile to make it a pure tarpit, or to equip them with spears for the extra rank of attacks, expecting to cast Djaf's Incantation of Cursed Blades (augment, grants killing blow) pretty regularly.

The reasoning for that is obviously wanting to keep putting out successful augments, to keep regenerating lost wounds. And make them hit harder in the process. 

Just trying to distinguish where the line should be drawn between counter-punching (killing blow / spears) and pure tarpit (HW+S). Not to mention what's a reasonable cutoff on the number of models to field in one unit. 

I'm probably trying to make this way more academic than it needs to be. But since I'll be spending real life dollars on the figs, I'm just trying to make sure I choose wisely.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

There is a lot of sentiment toward going toward more models and not paying extra points for light armour or spears. Definitely, given the points cost per model and the tendency for the models to often be hit with higher S or no AS attacks in magic, shooting and combat, the extra +1 of light armour does not pay for itself. The spears add an extra rank of attack but lose the parry save in combat. Unless you plan on running a prince or king (using its WS) and maybe getting a key augment like KB on the unit, the probability of hitting and wounding something worth the points with an extra rank of attacks is not that great compared with the probability of the parry save saving models hit and wounded by attacks in combat. 

Also, as to ranks, running deep narrows the frontage and limits the number of attacks on the unit potentially and maximizing rankgs, but the extra ranks, assuming you will often lose combat, are often not worthwhile such that it is not uncommon for TK players to run a horde formation with a very large (40+) unit of skellies initially and then combat reform to increase ranks if legal and if needed for SCR. 

Some TK players are of the view that the Arrows of Asaph rules is such that skelly archers are better than warriors as a core choice with maybe chariots. With the limits on marching but always hitting on 5+, the archers will often pay for their extra points cost with a couple of rounds of shooting. All you lose is a 6+ AS and maybe a 6+ parry save which can be replaced if you get the ward save augment up. Also, many of your casualties will come from magic, shooting and certain combat attacks (stomps, impact hits) and crumble where the shield provides no benefits. Thus, the shield is worth maybe a half or a quarter of a point per model at most. On the other hand, archers will pay for the extra points almost always if they manage to get off 3 rounds of shooting (including a stand and shoot since they cannot flee if charged) and sometimes with two rounds of shooting against certain elite units. For example, high elves and dark elves are T3 but pay extra for ASF, high WS or high I; similarly, Daemon core pay extra for the ward save and daemonic but are expensive per model and not that tough with T3 or T4). 18 shots hitting on 5's and wounding on 4's with a one-third (5+ save) save means 2 dead high elf spears (even more archers), dark elf crossbowmen (with shields) or black guard, or bloodletters or daemonettes per round of shooting. That is worth min 18 and max 24 points of models killed. Also, don't underestimate the value of plinking a high value target with enough shots to get a wound through. A one-third chance of getting a wound on a high value target (say 240 points and 3 wounds) is worth 20 points. The biggest drawback on archers relative to warriors is that running them deep or large in numbers will mean that you will often have models unable to shoot or only two ranks and cumbersome movement and the need to then reform (before being charged) if run larger. As a result, they are often run as MSU and redirect/chaff units with one larger warrior block or tomb guard block.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Not sure if that was an oversight or if my knowledge is faulty... but I thought TK couldn't stand & shoot...

archers are certainly pretty good, espcially if you give them all +1 shot with magic. Very high numbers of shots will bring down anything, and TK are prett much the best at high volume shooting (and how I hate their hit on 5+ thing when I'm running my WEs in a sneaky skirmish army as I did in my first game vs new TK).


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## Madlister (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm definitely planning on having plenty of archers. I'd just like to field a blob of either HW+S or Spear using regular old skellies to soak up the bulk of the punishment, and try to grind things down with ranks.

I understand that this means between archers and regular skellies I'll be painting a metric crap ton of skeletons.

The reason I bring up spears (as mentioned in my earlier posts) is augment spells. I'm going to go with lots of spell casting. Whole point will be to run enough LoN augments to keep the regen pile going, as well as give the blob of skellies HB, the ward save, etc and try to bog the opponent down, while chariots / magic / sphinx / archers try to tear up things from afar or the flanks. 

That's the idea, anyway.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Thanks for pointing that out. I looked it up. Archers do not have slow to fire rule and have bows, so I thought that they could stand and shoot and definitely can move and shoot. However, the Kehekharan undead rule explicitly says that all units subject to that rulle can never march and when charged can only elect to hold (kind of dumb because stand and shoot is a form of holding). 

Yes, the +1 attacks augment (spell #3 righteous smitting) gives archers two shots each, instead of one as well. With the casket and hierotitan and two mages, it is possible to get off to augment the archers with a 5+ ward, +1 attack, and killing blow. And you can slow down an enemy unit with the #4 spell and make it weaker and easier to kill for those S3 arrows. Suddenly 18 archers are shooting 36 shots, with 12 average hits (regardless of the cover save or skirmishers) wounding on 3's against high elf and dark elf infantry. Against skirmishers that typically have lower T and little armour but rely on the -1 to hit and march and shoot and free reform, a unit of TK archers still always hit on 5's, so they can protect the war machines quite well from gutter runnings and chameleon skinks and so forth quite well. Furthermore, the boosted versions of the ward save and +1 attack augments hit all friendly units within 12" on the ward and 24" on the +1 attack spell.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

If the strategy is to keep units up and capable with LoN, then you will likely be trying to cast the signature and boost the #2 spell and sometimes boost the #3 spell a lot (casket and hierotitan come in handy there). Note that the +1 attack only benefits the front rank (supporting attacks are limited to the rules) but the second rank of shooting gets the +1 shot (MS(2)) without any penalty for multi-shot thanks the the arrows of Asaph rule.


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## Madlister (Feb 17, 2012)

I had even considered for a bit a unit of 6 Ushabti with great bows, being babysat by whichever caster drew Smiting, so augmenting them with the Multi-Shot (2). Twelve S6 shots with no modifiers for range or anything seemed kind of interesting.

But that troop type has to compete with Warsphinx, Necro Knights, Stalkers, Tomb Guard - hard to see where they'd fit in. Though 12 S6 shots does still sound kind of appealing.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Ushtabi compare okay with Ironguts (same armour save, GW, wounds, S, toughness, attacks, LD, but have -1M, +1 WS, and +1 I and are ITP and are undead). I would generally not drop the GW's since they are more likely to get into combat by turn two and not be shooting much. Also, 1 S6 shot compared with 3 close combat attacks makes combat the preferred use for these guys. Get that 5+ ward save and +1 attack on them and they rock and roll. But I agree that the necro knights seem to be the better choice (much better AS and more attacks per point cost, plus greater M and poison and KB combination of attacks) and war sphinxes can be pretty awesome. The Nehek lore does limit the regained wounds to 1 only for animated constructs, so you'd rather regain wounds on a necrosphinx, hierotitan or necro knight unit as well. 

Also, notice that righteous smiting explicitly add +1 attack to all elements of a model (mounts, crew, monster, etc.) so it is huge for a warsphinx (+4 attacks from the Tomb Guard on top and +1 attack for the sphinx on the bottom) and necro knight (+1 attack for the rider and +1 attack for the snake) if cast with the boosted version augmenting all friendly units within 24".


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## Madlister (Feb 17, 2012)

olderplayer said:


> Ushtabi compare okay with Ironguts (same armour save, GW, wounds, S, toughness, attacks, LD, but have -1M, +1 WS, and +1 I and are ITP and are undead). I would generally not drop the GW's since they are more likely to get into combat by turn two and not be shooting much. Also, 1 S6 shot compared with 3 close combat attacks makes combat the preferred use for these guys. Get that 5+ ward save and +1 attack on them and they rock and roll. But I agree that the necro knights seem to be the better choice (much better AS and more attacks per point cost, plus greater M and poison and KB combination of attacks) and war sphinxes can be pretty awesome. The Nehek lore does limit the regained wounds to 1 only for animated constructs, so you'd rather regain wounds on a necrosphinx, hierotitan or necro knight unit as well.
> 
> Also, notice that righteous smiting explicitly add +1 attack to all elements of a model (mounts, crew, monster, etc.) so it is huge for a warsphinx (+4 attacks from the Tomb Guard on top and +1 attack for the sphinx on the bottom) and necro knight (+1 attack for the rider and +1 attack for the snake) if cast with the boosted version augmenting all friendly units within 24".



All good analysis, appreciate that.

I have to admit I'm very much a sucker for the Necro Knight / Stalkers models. Those giant hooded cobra models look pretty awesome.


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## Ratvan (Jun 20, 2011)

Tim/Steve said:


> Not sure if that was an oversight or if my knowledge is faulty... but I thought TK couldn't stand & shoot...
> 
> archers are certainly pretty good, espcially if you give them all +1 shot with magic. Very high numbers of shots will bring down anything, and TK are prett much the best at high volume shooting (and how I hate their hit on 5+ thing when I'm running my WEs in a sneaky skirmish army as I did in my first game vs new TK).


 
I was under the impression of the same thing, it should say in the army book in the army special rules...can't remember the page number unfortunately. Might have been FAQ'd however


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## Madlister (Feb 17, 2012)

Ratvan said:


> I was under the impression of the same thing, it should say in the army book in the army special rules...can't remember the page number unfortunately. Might have been FAQ'd however



TK Army Book - pg 28 under the heading "Nehekharan Undead":



> ...In addition, units with the Nehekharan Undead rule can never (ever!) make march moves and, when charged, can only elect to hold.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Yeah the Ushabti should stick to CC. Personally I've used them and seen them used quite well despite the generally unfavorable view of them in the current Armybook. Typically I like to use them as either flank guards or as Hierophant guards (and sometimes as both when the situation has called for it). Say what what you want about Ushabti in the 8th Ed, they still pack a fierce punch with their blades.

If you're going to go Shooting/Magic heavy army I would suggest to keep your archer groups small in size but many to make the most out of their shoots rather than a few large blocks. I've had some great success with 2x8s and 3x8s of archers. Chariots and Horse Archers are pretty good too but you're better off using their shooting in a supporting manner on the flanks where they can be easily position to harass your enemy. If you choose to use them like that, I recommend keeping them one side of your army along with any Skeletal Horsemen you may have and a mounted Liche Priest to keep them in the fight. A group like that can be a great annoyance to your opponent as they can't ignore them yet can't risk diverting too many units from the main fight.

There's an interesting tactic in the old TK Armybook (back in the days when GW threw in some tactics in their books to help out new players) that you might find useful. It's a Shooting/Defensive tactic where you deploy your forces in several lines. At rear any SSC and CoS in your army. Either in a line in front of them or on the sides of your army (or a combination of both) place every other unit expect for your archers. Then your front line will an archer line. The first couple of turns should be spent on shooting and casting with little movement on your part as your enemy moves in. When they're about to reach your archers pull them back and move your other units forward to protect them. While I haven't used the tactic myself as I favor a more diverse army but I've seen it used by a guy with a Shooting/Magic army that has tons of archers.

To a new player like you I would suggest (if you haven't bought many or any models yet) buy a Battalion box plus one box of a Core unit, (doesn't matter which) as well as a King and Liche. (keep an eye out if your store still has some of the old Liche Priests models that came in twos, one on foot and one mounted simply because they were cheaper than two of the new ones) After that start experimenting your army list, using proxies for them in friendly battles to get a feel for them. And don't be afraid to try every unit in the TK army. You'd be surprised how good some of the TK's understated and under-appreciated units. One time I held back a Doomwheel with a flock of Carrion and when it did finally kill my birds it died the very next turn without causing significant damage to the rest of my army. Another game saw my two Tomb Scorpions doing horrendous damage to an Empire player's cannons and even (by a lucky roll on my part and a terrible role on his) killed his Gold Wizard. You probably won't win many of these games (especially against veteran armies and players) but even that will help you out in refining your army and playstyle.


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## misfratz (Feb 9, 2012)

Madlister said:


> I had even considered for a bit a unit of 6 Ushabti with great bows, being babysat by whichever caster drew Smiting, so augmenting them with the Multi-Shot (2). Twelve S6 shots with no modifiers for range or anything seemed kind of interesting.
> 
> But that troop type has to compete with Warsphinx, Necro Knights, Stalkers, Tomb Guard - hard to see where they'd fit in. Though 12 S6 shots does still sound kind of appealing.


Looking at the list I kinda think that Tomb Kings have one of the stronger Core sections.

I think I'd want a nice solid unit of skeleton warriors for ranks and numbers, a good number of skeleton archers for some bowfire, some chariots for flanking - and tasty impact hits - maybe even some horsemen for dealing with small annoying units the enemy has. I can't see how this isn't going to head towards 50% of points, rather than the minimum 25% required.

When you add in a decent roster of characters to boost fighting capability and spell-casting then I don't think you have to worry too much about the Ushabti competing for points with other Special choices. You'll run out of points overall before you run out of Special points.

Maybe this suggests that the answer to your question is to drop the normal skeleton warriors anyway, and simply have a smaller block of Tomb Guard as your only combat infantry. You'll fill your Core allowance with chariots and archers quite easily I would have thought, and dropping the warriors gives you more points to spend on characters/Special choices if that's what you want.

Personally I'd be thinking of 40-50 spear-skeletons run as a horde, but I tend to spend more on Core then most people do.


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