# A Traitor's Flaws



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I've been thinking on the Traitor Primarchs, and just what it was that made them rebel/able to rebel.
I think it's been fairly well accepted that each Primarch is a representation of a facet of the Emperor's whole. Whilst this makes each of them almost godly in that particualr aspect, it also has quite a drawback. When we look at the Primarchs, we can see that they are quite 1-dimensional; by this I don't mean they way they are written, but rather the way they view the world and their place in it, and how they try to solve problems. It also means that if you stress them in the right way and with the correct triggers, they will collapse psychologically much faster than a 'normal' person who's personality is much more rounded. 
But when it comes to what each Primarch represents, I actually think that this might hide the real issue. So, we say that Angron is elemental anger; but does this give us a real reason as to why he would rebel? This is what I want to explore. I'll start with an easy one and, if anyone cares, maybe I'll put down the other things I came up with.

So, Magnus. This I believe is the easiest Primarch to identify his character-flaw. Arrogance. _A Thousand Sons_ seemed to be quite clear that Magnus condsidered himself to be second in intelligence and psychic power, to the Emperor; no-one else, according to the one-eyed Primarch, could come close to him. The Emperor had shown him things that no-one else knew. He had tutored Magnus, even before he was 'born', and trusted him, seemingly implicitly.
Magnus also undertook flights into the warp alone and, as he grew in power, took on greater and greater challenges, contesting with the denizens of the warp and besting them, no matter how powerful they were. He truly believed his greatness and was supremely self-confident- arrogant. This meant that when Tzeentch, or whatever warp-presence, wanted to trick Magnus all it had to so was draw him into a competition that it knew it couldn't lose; Magnus was so arrogant that he didn't feel he needed to consider that there was anything in the warp that could beat him, and it was only when he was standing in the ashes of his father's plans that he finally realised just how little he knew.
As a Primarch his personality was totally bound-up in his intelligence and feelings of near omnipotence. When this was pulled away, Magnus' personality unravelled as there was no other pesonality trait strong enough to provide him with an identity. 

If anyone would like me to continue, then I'm going to do Horus next.

GFP


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## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

its an interesting analysis but i thought horus would have been the arrogant one or maybe even my favorite one Lion El'Johnson. yes i would like you to continue great work


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Nigh on all the primarchs were arrogant, they were the best of the best humanity could produce, and they knew it. Humble is not a word I would use on many primarchs

I would say magnus's flaw was his insatiable desire for understandinding and hence control, coupled with his desire to do things his way, his arrogance only magnified this trait.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Barnster said:


> Nigh on all the primarchs were arrogant, they were the best of the best humanity could produce, and they knew it. Humble is not a word I would use on many primarchs


True and in any case I don't think having charachter flaws are what causes the turn, they're more like ****** in the primarchs armour that chaos exploits. The Lion was as arrogant as Fulgrim, Magnus or Horus and never turned to chaos and Russ was a lunatic like Angron and Night Haunter and didn't turn either. Their needs to be some external stimulus.

As far as flaws if I was going to compare them to sins I would say pride is as we know applicable to most of them, Fulgrim was vanity and maybe lust, Angron and Haunter are wrath, Horus was envy (envied the Emperors supposed reverence as a god in the future) Perturabo may have envied the Emperor's decision to use Dorn over him (a little conjecture, I know) too.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

All the Primarchs are arrogant, yes, but all of them are at least able to imagine that they can fail. Certainly they would be surprised at a tactical gambit failing, or an enemy out-manouvering them in diplomacy, but Magnus is so utterly defined by his feelings of superiority, that to him failure isn't just not an option, but something that doesn't apply to him.
The insatiable thirst for knowledge, especially forbidden lore, isn't a primary trait in my opinion, but a symptom of this arrogance; he is told that he shouldn't dabble in certain things, that he should leave well enough alone, but Magnus knows better because he knows there is no way he can be bested. Anything he turns his hand to he conquers until, in the end, it conquers him.

But, here's Horus. Again, I'm not going for the obvious. Certainly he's monstrously arrogant but as he said himself, for anyone to believe thay have the right to unite a galaxy, knowing better what's good for trillions of people than they do themselves, they need to be arrogant. What brought Horus low was simple Pride.
When he has his chaos-visions what is it that disturbs him most? It is when he sees the citizens of the Imperium worshipping the statues of the other Primarchs and that he isn't represented. The vision shows him a future where he isn't remembered, or is forgotten on purpose, and that eats Horus up inside. Isn't he the shining star? Is he not the Emperor's favourite? Does he not hold the galaxy in his hand, the lives of countless trillions his to protect or snuff out at a whim? He is so powerful that he can't ever be forgotten unless someone has deliberately engineered such a thing. And this is were the hurt feelings come in. His father has, seemingly, abandoned him and won't even tell him why. Won' tell Horus! That is unthinkable! Horus is great!
And this is the trait that collapses his psyche; he is determined that someone like him will never be forgotten and will go to any measures to make sure his name lives forever, ultimately becoming lost in this end.

GFP

Maybe Lorgar next.


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## LordofFenris (Mar 10, 2010)

I think its more their personalities than any outside influence. I poke or a prod here and there from fellow fallen Astartes may have helped, but in the end it had to have been a flaw in their own personalities that caused them to turn. As has been stated already, many primarchs had shared traits and flaws that made many of them closer in character than they would like to have admitted to. Angron and Russ were both psychopaths, Perturbo and Dorn were both stubborn, Magnus and Russ both had manipulative sides, The Lion, Russ, and almost all the primarchs were arrogant. The list can continue for far longer than I wish to type.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I think it's a mix of the two. On the one hand, as I'm arguing, the Primarchs all have very skewed personalities, pushing them towards looking at the world in a very idiosyncratic way. This unfortunately means that they are quite shallow characters, unable to re-adjust to looking at the world in a new way, should their point-of-view be proven to be wrong. Rather than being confused for a while before regaining control of things, they just fall apart and become very suggestible.
And it is here that the outside force comes into play. The Chaos Gods want the Primarchs to turn on their father. How best to do it? Well, each Primarch has a hidden weakness in their charcter- apply the right stressors, at the right time, in the right way, and their ability to reason and judge falls apart as their psyche collapses around them. Horus goes from loyalest son and Humanity's greatest hope, to a craven and utter traitor, all because his wounded pride can't cope with the fact that he will not be worshipped in the future. Magnus does Tzeentch's bidding because his abilities are challenged, his arrogance blinding him to what might happen, and once he is brought low, he too falls apart.

GFP


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## popeyethesailor (Jun 28, 2010)

I love the idea of this thread
however a couple things, i thought i read somewhere that the primarchs flaws were imbedded in them when they were scattered by chaos at birth

second didnt magnus only betray the emperor because the emperor sent russ after him and his home world was destroyed?


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I'm not suggesting that this is an alternate reason for why the Primarchs rebelled. Rather I'm saying that the hidden personality flaws are why the bad things that happened lead to such overreactions. Just because Horus thinks he won't get a statue or two he tries to burn the galaxy? Just because Magnus isn't the smartest kid in school, and the others have tricked him into wrecking his dad's favourite car, he lies down and lets his Legion face the consequences rather than getting to Terra quicksmart and stopping the war? One-dimensional characters mean they can't adapt to a paradigm-shift in the way they have to view, and approach, life.
As a really poor analogy, look at the kid who is massive in school, bigger than anyone else in their year and even a couple of years above them. Many will use this size to bully (not all, I stress, but we've all seen it); but when they leave school they have no idea of how to interract with everyone who is now the same size as they are and aren't impressed by some tosser trying to bully them. What happens? Well, they might flounder a bit but, eventually, they'll pull their head out of their arse and sort themselves out. This is our Primarch- he's left school and can't just us his size anymore but rather than adjusting, he falls apart and ends up doing bad things. Like I said, a poor analogy.

GFP


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

popeyethesailor said:


> second didnt magnus only betray the emperor because the emperor sent russ after him and his home world was destroyed?


Thts a point of conjecture 

Personally thats the line I take, however many argue that simply dealing with warp powers damned magnus long before the wolves arrived.

The fact that magnus didn't get the wolves fleet destroyed en route to prospero, as tzeentch offered, would suggest he may have been a bit like the night haunter, potentially loyal but believed he had done wrong and deserved punishing. Of course Magnus arguable done more to help the traitor cause than even Horus by destroying the emperors webway flooding Terra with daemons


I think its hard to pin down characters as having 1 main personality "flaw" as I don't think you can ever argue cause and effect between traits and actions, myriad are the ways of fate, personality traits may impact, but larger reasons all play their part, 1 bad piece of slate doesn't make a roof, but can cause it to leak.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Barnster said:


> Thts a point of conjecture
> I think its hard to pin down characters as having 1 main personality "flaw" as I don't think you can ever argue cause and effect between traits and actions, myriad are the ways of fate, personality traits may impact, but larger reasons all play their part, 1 bad piece of slate doesn't make a roof, but can cause it to leak.


I agree with this.

Each Traitor Primarch had mutiple flaws, but each loved the Emperor to the point of Fanatisim. It took major outside influence and along with key moments to set them down a darker path.

Angron is one of the quickest to snap at the Emperor. He right off the back hated his father for saving him and condeming his fellow gladiators to a glorious death without him. His Psyko Surgey doesnt help his line of thinking either. Then was further enrage when Horus was name Warmaster. Very Blunt but with key mutiple factors.

Fulgrim, he was on the threshold of loyal and traitor to the end. he had arrogance but was humbled. This is supported when he seeked advice from his top sculpter on a sculpt and couldnt figure out why it was not coming out right. When he couldnt best Manus in the Weapon Contest (cause they tied) he immediatly became closest to him. Its only when he came to posses the Daemon Weapon that he became directly tainted. Even then he couldnt bear with what he done to Manus. Many, many factors had cause Fulgrim to sway, NOT turn, but sway towards the darker path. 

Nighthaunter is the same as Fulgrim as he never really solid turn traitor. He was backed into a corner with nowhere to turn. It was join Horus or perish, he decided to survive, and in the end chose death regardless. Not a story of character flaws, but rather cricumstances and hard choices.

Alpha Legion has nothing to do with character flaws, at all. Legion shows Alpharious and Omegon made the hardest descision of any Primarch. The Cabal knew what was coming and knew that Chaos would Prevail and burn out quickly, or the Emperor won and Chaos continue to slowly grow thru the never ending war. No flaws there, just Logic thinking. They joined Horus so Chaos would burn out quickly... or did they? :laugh:

To me the key circumstances define what Primarchs would turn and which would not.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

The very fact that the Primarchs failed so badly when stressed shows that they all have a fundamental weakness. It's not just about them having only this one weakness; I did say that as each has a set way to look at the world, one that is utterly reinforced by the fibre of their being- this will mean that moving away from that view handicaps them in multiple ways. EG. Lorgar needs to conquer a world, so he goes the religious crusade bit, not thinking for a moment that this particualr world might comply with the whole Imperial Truth thing. And if he did try a non-religous crusade he wouldn't really know how to do it. Each Primarch's personality informs their actions in a way it doesn't for us normal folk and when you attack that, they fall.
Whilst I've mentioned Lorgar, let's look at him. His problem is that he can't take responsibility for what he does. He conquers Colchis on the back of his visions of the Emperor, wiping out (or did he?) the Old Ways for the Emepror, who promptly appears and gives the Urizen a Legion of his very own. Lorgar goes out into the galaxy and, because he is THE Prophet of a god, he burns entire worlds fo daring to not believe. And I believe that this explains what happens after the Emperor tells Lorgar to stop with the religiouiosity.
Lorgar suddenly looks back on what he has done and can't cope with it. Everything he has done was always justified by someone greater than him telling him to go out and act in their name. For a month or more, the whole Legion sits inactive whilst Lorgar tries to deal with his actions. Then, someone, a 'normal' person who is able to adapt the way they look at the world without falling apart, says, 'you know there is someone else to worship...'. And here Lorgar is given a life-line. Here is justification on a plate. He can burn down what he made before because he was lied-to; he can set the galaxy aflame because the Chaos gods have said that, not only is it OK, but it is their preferred form of worship.
How is this different to his brothers? The other Primarchs have actually understood and agreed with the Emperor on the goals of the Great Crusade; they are driven not just by the Emperor himself, but by the bright future they see for a united Humanity. Lorgar doesn't care about the goals, or even much about the methods. What's important to him is that it is the Emperor who is telling him to act, a god incarnate.
EDIT: Without the Emperor's will to justify his actions, Lorgar is just a huge guy with a taste for face-paint and henna tattoos, unable to do anything through his own inspiration, waiting (and probably praying) for someone greater than him to come along and give him the excuse to act.
GFP


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I'm not making this easy for myself, doing all of the easy ones upfront. However, Fulgrim is on my mind, so I'm going to tackle him next.
Fulgrim's big issue is a massive inferiority complex. Earth-shattering revelation, no? We don't really get to see this until, as with most of the Primarchs who show a personality flaw, he is in a position of stress, ie. his Legion is involved in a terrible accident that leaves him with only 200 Marines to join up with. Being mentored by Horus, considered the greatest of Primarchs, as he is still learning what is required of him, and having too few Astartes to make a real difference really gets to Fulgrim; which Primarch wouldn't be affected in this situation? But Fulgrim, rather than saying that they need to aspire to be the best, says they need to actually be above this, to be perfect. This, unfortunately, is only ever going to lead to future problems as it is an unattainable goal- precisely the goal an inferiority complex sufferer would choose as it leaves them always behind where they want to be. Whilst Fulgrim feels that he and his genesons are making progress towards that perfection, and that others see them doing so, everything is as it should be. But what happens when this is not the case?
It all starts with the Laeren sword. What does the sword do to make Fulgrim fall apart? It makes him feel that others are looking down on him, that they are humouring him when they talk to him but insulting him, belittling him, behind his back. With such a huge inferiority complex Fulgrim feels more and more pressure to perform, which alienates him from those close to him as he starts to resent them not respecting him (at least, in his own mind). We see him start to crack by his extreme mood swings, his sudden personality change from one who is seeking perfection, to one who now desperately believes that they are perfect, but who is utterly unable to take any criticism as he needs all of those close to him to actively support his delusion- the feelings of inferiority are now bubbling so close to the surface that they are ruling his life.
Horus makes Fulgrim feel good about himself; Ferrus, representing the loyalists, doesn't, although this is not deliberate- the Laeren sword has Fulgrim incredibly hypersensitive to any percieved criticism.
And so, Fulgrim sees in Horus a regime leader who acknowledges his perfection; more importantly, however, Fulgrim now needs this support to function, the Laeran sword having destroyed his confidence and letting all of the fears inferiority brings, loose in his psyche. This si not why he lets himself become possessed, though. That , I believe, is deep remorse.

GFP


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## Primarch Lorgar (Jul 11, 2009)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Whilst I've mentioned Lorgar, let's look at him. His problem is that he can't take responsibility for what he does. He conquers Colchis on the back of his visions of the Emperor, wiping out (or did he?) the Old Ways for the Emepror, who promptly appears and gives the Urizen a Legion of his very own. Lorgar goes out into the galaxy and, because he is THE Prophet of a god, he burns entire worlds fo daring to not believe. And I believe that this explains what happens after the Emperor tells Lorgar to stop with the religiouiosity.
> Lorgar suddenly looks back on what he has done and can't cope with it. Everything he has done was always justified by someone greater than him telling him to go out and act in their name. For a month or more, the whole Legion sits inactive whilst Lorgar tries to deal with his actions. Then, someone, a 'normal' person who is able to adapt the way they look at the world without falling apart, says, 'you know there is someone else to worship...'. And here Lorgar is given a life-line. Here is justification on a plate. He can burn down what he made before because he was lied-to; he can set the galaxy aflame because the Chaos gods have said that, not only is it OK, but it is their preferred form of worship.
> How is this different to his brothers? The other Primarchs have actually understood and agreed with the Emperor on the goals of the Great Crusade; they are driven not just by the Emperor himself, but by the bright future they see for a united Humanity. Lorgar doesn't care about the goals, or even much about the methods. What's important to him is that it is the Emperor who is telling him to act, a god incarnate.
> EDIT: Without the Emperor's will to justify his actions, Lorgar is just a huge guy with a taste for face-paint and henna tattoos, unable to do anything through his own inspiration, waiting (and probably praying) for someone greater than him to come along and give him the excuse to act.
> GFP


Liar! Heretic! I don't have flaws! You will burn for that, mortal!!!!!!!!!:ireful2::angry:


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

[email protected] Lorgar. 
i honestly think Fulgrim to some extent did feel belittled in the eyes of his brothers with only 200 warriors to command before they could get things up adn running, i just believe that he so utterly worshipped his father as a hero and an icon that with all that had happened around him it did not take long for the favoured son Horus to sow the seeds of doubt into his head. i don't think he had any form of inferioirty complex, i just think he was ewasly manipulated by a brother that he trusted and whom many believed was the emperors words in his absence, he had no reason to disbelieve Horus, although saying that we don't actually know what took place to make fulgrim change his mind becasue as i recall there was a scene in the book where he was not altogether happy with Erebus being present and there was some banter going on then it says somethng like horus put his arm round fulgrim and that was it the scene ended the next one was him walkng out of horus strategum with a troubled expression. 
the emperors children always strived to be perfect becusae with so few numbers to being with they felt like a flawed leigon and maybe they had to be in he eyes of the more successful leigons whilst i can see some of your point i can't agree with all of it. the chaos gods strike when they feel like it and if the emperors children were already on a path to damnation then it was thier pursuit of perfection and hedonism that drove them to it not fulgrims insecurity complex of which i do not believe he suffered from,.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

and lorgar...Lorgar would have been the thomas de torquemanda of the wh40k world, the grand inquistor with religious fervour as his shield adn his weapon. All primarchs with perhapes the exception of Horus were a product of thier cradle worlds. 
for exaple Russ was wild and savage becasue thats what Fenris bred, Angron we know nothing about his hoimeworld but he was savage because thats how he was trained to be, Gulliman was not just a fighter but a lover of culture adn an architect becasue thats how he was raised to be so saying that Lorgar was raised on a world where religious belief was the be all and end off of life.
he believed the empeor must be divine to have as much power as he did, to wrought the power he had and to have lived as long as he had and be truely immortal.
Lorgar came from a world that had religion as its driving body Where everything was sacerd, i mean they say the primarchs had some aspect of thier father wraught into them so who is to say that once upon a time the emperor was not a man of faith just this manifested more in Lorgar then anyone else. 
i don't believe that Lorgar needed anyone to tell him what to do, he did it because he believed in what he did and he had the faith to do it, unfortunatly with other zealous relgious people when thier faith is shattered they find it hard to let go of that they truely believe in and so when the emperor chastised him for his beliefs then he turned to something that was willing to accept his devotion but it by no means makes him a lap dog, misguided maybe but i don't believe for one moment that Lorgar is anyones fool.


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## Primarch Lorgar (Jul 11, 2009)

gothik said:


> i don't believe for one moment that Lorgar is anyones fool.


your elevation to daemonhood is eminent!:grin:


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I'm not trying to deny anyone's personaility, or how they act in the fluff. I'm saying that, when Chaos and treachery came-a-knockin', they fell; they fell because the stress of deciding what was right and wrong, pushed through the one real weak spot in their armour that would cause such total and utter abandonment of everything they had seemed to hold dear. Fulgrim IS a perfect warrior (as much as anything based on a human can be, anyway) and Lorgar IS a grand inquisitor burning faith into the universe. But how did each, demi-god-like being fall without much of a fight?
Poor Fulgrim, comparing himself to the Emperor- that is a fool's errand for anyone; you don't measure up to gods, not even if you're a demi-god. Then he has Horus to look up to. These wouldn't be bad things unless you have a personality that is unable to cope with the seeming disparity between you and the object of your admiration.
Lorgar mightn't have been anyone's fool, but he was certainly not able to take charge of his own life. Everything he did was for someone else. And I don't mean for the good of others (although he proabably thought that), I mean that it was always for a being greater than him. I did actually consider if he had a _superiority_ complex, that he could only be moved to action if those asking him were sufficiently powerful; after all, he doesn't work for mortals, look at him- why wouldn't he wait for gods to ask him to work for them?
Maybe I need to say that I don't think the Primarchs would actually be aware of such personality issues, and this is likely why they are such a weakspot. Someone who finds themselves always comparing themselves to others and never being able to do well in those comparisons, if they know they have an issue they can work to change it. Likewise someone who is always getting swept up in the grand plans of others might learn to take a moment to actually think, truly, about what it is they're doing.

GFP


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

now theres an interesting concept me as a demon princess lol


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

or in my guess demon queen....any way GFP i ca see a point to your thread adn it is a good thread and ther is reasonable arguement for both sides of the coins, they were wraught as perfect beings in the image of thier father but they had flaws i just dont happen to agree with all your reasoning, however it is a good thread:grin:


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## Ravingbantha (Jan 9, 2009)

I blame the Emperor. It was his arrogence that led to the war, look at the way he kept secrets from everyone. It was those secrets that caused the rift. Had he explained to his sons why he was returning to earth, perhaps they would have not felt abandoned. Perhaps if he had told Magnes about the throne and webway, Magnus would not have blundered in like he did.

The Emperor preached about destroying Alien technology, yet he was using just such a think to try and access an alien webway. If he had explained to the Primarches what the warp was and what was in it, they would have been better prepaired for what they faced. In the end it was the secrecy and lies the Emperor held close that caused it all. It was his arrogence that he could force people, at gun point, to love him and his Empire that caused so much evil. For someone who is supposed to be so old and understands so much, he failed to understand the very nature of humanity.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Interesting thread, GFP. You`re right, you did pick the easy ones first. 

If I may offer my own opinions on the candidates so far...

Magnus --- Hubris
Horus --- Pride (this is well established)
Lorgar --- Lack of initiative. Without a "god" to follow, he didn`t have a reason to live.
Fulgrim --- Inferiority. Inability to accept criticism. The need for constant ego stroking.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Just some further thoughts on Lorgar.
It might be that he's already decided how he's going to take on the galaxy and now he wants someone to justify this plan. He sees Humanity as needing gods and so he's going to bring them; wreathed in fire and pain. Firstly he has the Emperor and when the Emperor tells him to get secular or get bent, he suddenly has no sponsor for his actions. The Chaos gods get their foot in because Lorgar has no intention of truly changing how he acts, he just wants someone else to dominate him and to tell him it's OK; the month of sackcloth and ashes is just an elaborate strop (even if Lorgar really does see it a mourning), what would he have been like if he had really and truly changed from this religious zealot?

GFP


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

*Religion*

I puzzled over this issue while reading the Horus Heresy books, and still find it hard to accept the fall of any space marine to chaos, the Soul Drinkers are a good example of a chapter who have faced a terrible set of circumstances and still reject chaos so its not cut and dried.

In the First book of HH (Horus Heresy) Horus gets stabbed by a chaplain of the Word Bearers and goes into a coma and returns, despite Angrons warning, to start the Heresy, all the reasons he comes up with are really unconvincing as though once the soul is tainted (by poison) the mind can make any foolish reasons to rationalise it, one of his Mornigals stood against him in the lodges and also in other legions some were against it. 

Two main issues crop up for me, the biggest one is that the Emp forbid his worship as a god, the Legions marines had been with the Empire from its founding probably in a mercenary sense and fell in with each primark and followed him into battle - roman legions often rebelled along with their commanders, because they were more loyal to their General than the Emperor. So the troops are rebelious by nature - so that solves that one - some obviously are more loyal than others, probably the more intelligent who would become officers eventually, by nature calmer than battle lust driven lower ranks.

Then second issue crops up in the first book on the planet where the poisoned dagger was stolen from, in an innocent conversation the people of the planet find out the SM's have never heard of Chaos, odd.
The Emp chose to protect the SM's from all knowledge of chaos to protect them - maybe he is worried at the start they cant deal with chaos with out being tainted. This seems to set the scene for every one hating Magnus who discovers and dabbles in the warp as the cause of the mess.
Yet in the book of short stories following mechanicus in HH a story about the Word Bearers makes total sense out of the issue of how a Primark could be tainted.
Angron is humiliated by the Emp by forbiding him to worship the Emp as a god, this to me is the real beginning of the Heresy, Angron then decides to find a god worthy of his worship and finds the chaos gods. So neither science nor sorcery are to blame but religion. His chaplain poisons Horus and offers Horus's souls to chaos and then move to taint the rest.
Oddly enough Angron would be pleased because in 40k the emp is now worshipped as a god and he would have ruled the empire as his chief priest.
In 30k there is no religionous undying love for the Emperor nor is it programmed into SM's as in 40k and of course no ecclesiarchs or inquisition. 

It makes a bit more sense to me any way.


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

Lorgar not Angron good buddy ;-)

Im pretty sure I read somewhere SM's in 40k dont worship the Emperor as a God just an awesome human


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

I think you guys are being a bit harsh on Lorgar, He did unite his home planet under him and end massive civil wars. Planets he turned /liberated /conquer were some of the most loyal there were. The guy was no fool. And I don't think he always wanted some one else to blame or give him instructions. He was arguable one of most educated of the primarchs, after magnus

Lorgar just realised that Humanity was not the zenith of life in the galaxy, as such others are clearly better, and as such its best to be friends with the stronger. The emperor was strongest therefore best to stick on his good side, ands worthy of praise.

And kickbacks spot on 40k marines do not worship the emperor as a god, but rather as a great father figure, arguably closest to the emperors original vision.


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## qwerty1234 (May 31, 2010)

Wonderful ! I would love to read more.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

"The Emperor was a magnificent scientist, unparalleled leader and a unbelievable human... but he was a terrible father." ~ Horus


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

MuSigma said:


> In the First book of HH (Horus Heresy) Horus gets stabbed by a chaplain of the Word Bearers and goes into a coma and returns, despite Angrons warning, to start the Heresy, all the reasons he comes up with are really unconvincing as though once the soul is tainted (by poison) the mind can make any foolish reasons to rationalise it, one of his Mornigals stood against him in the lodges and also in other legions some were against it.


He gets stabbed by a Nurgle Corrupted Human Imperial Governor and despite Magnus' warning chooses to rebel- 2 of his Mournival stood against the decision to place Horus within the serpent lodge.


MuSigma said:


> Two main issues crop up for me, the biggest one is that the Emp forbid his worship as a god, the Legions marines had been with the Empire from its founding probably in a mercenary sense and fell in with each primark and followed him into battle - roman legions often rebelled along with their commanders, because they were more loyal to their General than the Emperor. So the troops are rebelious by nature - so that solves that one - some obviously are more loyal than others, probably the more intelligent who would become officers eventually, by nature calmer than battle lust driven lower ranks.


The Space Marines weren't with the Emperor from a mercenary sense, they were created after the Primarchs were scattered and were, with the exception of his Custodes, his most loyal troops.



MuSigma said:


> Then second issue crops up in the first book on the planet where the poisoned dagger was stolen from, in an innocent conversation the people of the planet find out the SM's have never heard of Chaos, odd.
> The Emp chose to protect the SM's from all knowledge of chaos to protect them - maybe he is worried at the start they cant deal with chaos with out being tainted. This seems to set the scene for every one hating Magnus who discovers and dabbles in the warp as the cause of the mess.
> Yet in the book of short stories following mechanicus in HH a story about the Word Bearers makes total sense out of the issue of how a Primark could be tainted.
> Angron is humiliated by the Emp by forbiding him to worship the Emp as a god, this to me is the real beginning of the Heresy, Angron then decides to find a god worthy of his worship and finds the chaos gods. So neither science nor sorcery are to blame but religion. His chaplain poisons Horus and offers Horus's souls to chaos and then move to taint the rest.
> ...


This time you mean Lorgar not Angron, and it's still not a Word Bearer that stabs Horus, though it is Erebus who steals the blade (the Anathame, also believed to be the blade used by Fulgrim to kill Guilliman).

There was so many basic mistakes in your post I have to ask if you've read any of the HH novels, or anthing about the Heresy at all, or are you getting this info 2nd hand from over hearing people talking about it?


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## qwerty1234 (May 31, 2010)

Sorry for the double thread, I just found the rest of the pages (still new here). Some have argued that Astartes are less human because of their lack of certain emotions and others still believe that they are MORE human because the emotions they do feel are significantly stronger than those of us mere mortals. Their loyalty and brotherhood come directly to mind. So if the Primarchs are still enhanced even further than ANY Astartes could ever hope to be, why wouldnt their emotions and feelings be that much stronger and more intense also? So when the Primarchs were "betrayed" they felt it so much more intensely than we could ever imagine. Think about that, everyone has been betrayed at some point in their lives, right?, and how did it make you feel? Now imagine having a Perfect Being come from the stars, scoop you up, whisk you away and tell you that you and your 19 Brothers were greater/better than nearly EVERY other being in the galaxy and that together you would help Him create an Empire that streched farther than the imagination can contemplate. Now, after years of all that ego stroking and adoration from that Perfect Being, imagine that He has "betrayed" you. That thought must have cut deeper than they ever thought possible. In my opinion Im surprised that MORE of the Primarchs DIDNT turn.


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## Nightlord92 (Jul 7, 2010)

Hey guys, still new here but of all the primarchs, i feel most sympathy for Konrad Kurze. The brutal actions of the Night Lords were sanctioned by none other than the Emperor himself. The Night Haunter and his legion became the monsters the Imperium needed, they became the terror the enemies of the Imperium feared. When the other primarchs called him to answer for his actions, the Emperor did nothing for his own flesh and blood. He abandoned his child and left him to the wolves. Honestly, I think the Night Haunter shows how the Emperor was a bad father to his sons and that any of them sided with him is a miracle


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

In a way I agree- the Emperor was so involved with the 'long view', his plans that had taken thousands and thousands of years of covert and overt manipulation that I think he had problems connecting with short term events that fell outside of his plans to any great degree (such as the effect his 'abandonment' would have on his Sons for example).


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## Nightlord92 (Jul 7, 2010)

Exactly, I mean I get how long term his plans were (like imprisoning the Void Dragon during the ancient times of Terra, which would later lead to the creation of the Mechanicus), but the way he handled things with Kurze or even at the Trail of Magnus at Nikea, completely showed how he would abandon his sons in a heartbeat


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

For almost 40,000 years every waking moment was driven towards manipulating the myriad possible fates into aligning perfectly for his plan to rescue humanity from itself, nothing was more important than that- not his Sons, nor the untold billions who died over the ages his designs grew to fruition.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Back to the Primarchs!

Konrad Curze/Nighthaunter. This fella has given me some issues. How to describe what I feel his big flaw is? I went through a number- dogmatism, cynicism, pessimism. In the end, I decided it was a bit simpler than that. He is the ultimate fatalist, and it was this that ended up driving him to rebel.
As all of the Primarchs, he turns up on a strange world unannounced. But, unlike the others, he never gets taken in by anybody; he has to survive all on his own, using his wits and inbuilt Primarch abilities. It is here, rather than at any other time, that his flaw is revealed. Maybe it was the corruption of Chaos as his tube floated through the warp? I'm actually thinking that his young mind was broken- maybe by Chaos, maybe his was just a mind that didn't form properly, maybe he was going to be another set of twins that stayed as one physically- which ruined his life. 
He starts off by deciding that the only way to give everyone their life back is to take onto himself all of the evils of the world. He makes himself the worst thing anyone can imagine, to tame and bring the criminals into line, and to stop anyone daring to take their place. And this is the point where his broken mind betrays him. He can't take the pain and stress of being so in-human, and so his mind produces a second identity to protect him- Nighthaunter. In and of itself, Disossiative Identity Disorder isn't a barrier to his being a true leader of his Legion; just like an Eldar Aspect Warrior it might even be something to be turned to his advantage, allowing him to do terrible things and not be tainted by them. But his fatalism now rears its head.
We know he has terrible visions that show him the future, but of all the ways things can come to pass he only sees the worst. Again, in and of itself not truly a handicap. But all of the terrible things he's done, plus the 'evil' side of his personality, start to make him work towards making his worst-case visions an actuality, driving harder and harder to the bad outcome as his fatalism takes complete control.
Look at his actions. He has already seen a vision of the Emperor causing his death, and as he gets more fatalistic he is consumed with making it a reality. Once his Legion is up and recruiting, he turns away from it and Nocturne; the criminals take charge, once again, and then infect the Legion. He starts to make the terror aspect of his Legion the end to the means; taking and complying worlds is forgotten as the Legion revels in the fear. His actions against Dorn; he could have killed him, but an IF Legion with Dorn would be better at making his vision come true. His fatalism even drives him to letting the Assassin kill him without a fight (probably).
Poor guy. OF all of them I feel most sorry for him. Probably because his actions don't really fall as part of Horus' plot; Horus didn't seem to count on Nighthaunter doing what he did and his Legion is probably an unlooked for bonus. Is Curze' fall Chaos playing the long game? Is he just a broken-minded man struggling against his nature and losing? Either way, if he had been capable of optimism then he might have been able to use his illness for good, or to have worked to cure himself. Instead his fatalism drove him to destruction.

GFP


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## Nightlord92 (Jul 7, 2010)

I've got to disagree with you on several points there. Firstly, the Nighthaunter never submitted to chaos. Even during the Heresy, the Nightlords stayed away from the influence of chaos. They used chaos, but they never joined chaos. On Nocturne the Primarch grew up alone, his only judgment of right and wrong were from the native people there: gangsters, murderers, thieves, etc. He knew the the power of fear and adopted the name Nighthaunter to sow fear in their eyes. He became the boogeyman they all feared and gave the innocents hope. When he first took over the Nightlords legion, he was still an eager and loyal son of the Emperor, and set out from Nocturne to do the Emperors work. With his absence, the planet and people naturally reverted back to the way it was. The Nightlords are always a legion set on a knife's edge and require something very important: Focus. Konrad Kurze gave his legion that focus, he never let the terror become an end to itself. Fear was the weapon, never the goal. As for his visions, he understood that sometimes his visions were wrong, and with the aid of aretefacts like the Corona Nox, he kept the madness and the whispers of Chaos at bay. The conflict between Dorn and Kurze is not so hard to understand. Dorn always thought wars should be fought face to face, he had no respect for the Nighthaunter or his ways of making war. Finally, when Konrad Kurze let the assassin kill him he didn't do it out of fatalism. He did it for a much higher purpose: Vindication. If he let the assassin do her work, it would hurt the Emperor greatly. It would show him he was right to do what he did.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

He never said he joined chaos. He said he may have just been an unwitting pawn in it's plans. I doubt he was ever loyal, from what he said to the emperor when they first met I think he always knew how it might end. In fact it is possible that chaos was planting those visions in his head to play him.


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

*Apologies*



Baron Spikey said:


> There was so many basic mistakes in your post I have to ask if you've read any of the HH novels, or anthing about the Heresy at all, or are you getting this info 2nd hand from over hearing people talking about it?


Yes I am innacurate in many details, I apologise.
My main reason for entering the debate is to analyse the question of why, loyal legions and primarchs could fall from grace.

I have read all HH up to Tales of Heresy. This book contains a short story called Scions of the Storm, which contains themes that cleared a lot of things up for me. On the subject of their fall. Which in previous HH books seemed very weak. Not one single Primarch seems to question or soulsearch the issue of treason (except Fulgrim for a second - too late to save himself or Manus).

It seems more credible to me that only one Primarch - Lorgar of the Word Bearers Legion actually chose to follow the chaos gods willingly and organised the downfall of the others, I like, in retrospect the idea of Horus being coerced without knowing it. As the most important convert; being Warmaster.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

ALL of the Primarchs have a hidden flaw. The loyal Primarchs likely didn't fall because that weakness wasn't acted upon to push them over the edge. It's not even really possible to guess what that weakness could be as we don't know if any of them were seriously tempted, or the details of such. The only loyalist I can think of who came close to being tempted was Ferrus Mannus, and I'm pushing it by saying tempted when, really, it was just his best friend asking him to join the baddies.
I don't think the Primarchs question their treason because to them it seems like such a natural step. Horus' wounded pride blinds him to the Emperor's actions being for the good of all, he can only see that, in the future Horus is forgotten; if the Emperor can cause this (and who else, at the time of the Great Crusade) would have the power to strike the name of a Primarch from the record? Horus reasons that if the Emperor has redacted Horus, what else is he capable of? He is side-lining the War Council in favour of the Terran Council, sending out Administrators and Remebrancers, wanting to set tithe levels and work out the politics of the new Imperium- he has lost sight of what is truly important, so Horus thinks, and must be removed. With the Chaos powers swelling his arrogance and power it is a natural step to usurp his father. To Horus it isn't treason, it is him fighting to make sure that Humanity is saved. When he says that hsi father is a false Emperor, he truly means it.
For all of the traitors, once they have accepted Horus' ideas it is, just like him, no longer treason but a fight for freedom.

GFP


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Poor Nighthaunter...

This thread makes me hate the Emperor all over again.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

curze - the ultimte anti-hero and yet whatever deamons drove him, his death did vindicate him, what father would send assassins to kill his own son...sometims i think the emperor is as bad as gods in the warp....if not worse, hides behind the glory of what is right is right...more like whats right is right long as its my way.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

What father could have left a son like that alive? The Emperor must have felt responsible for all of his sons, no matter what we've seen in the fluff. We know he had real difficulty in accepting that Horus was a traitor, almost to the detriment of the Imperium; but to actually send assassins after one of his sons, can you imagine the proof that he would have had to have been given? Worlds and people gutted for no reason other that the sheer fun of being in total control. Populations ravaged to the point of extinction because terror is a huge game, and the drawing of blood is all it is about.
Nighthaunter, because by this point Conrad Kurze is well and truly dead, is much worse that Horus. At least Horus does what he does from a twisted desire to see Humanity prosper and be protected. Nighthaunter does what he does because he wants to, and because the deaths of billions can't stand in the way of his fatalistic desire to prove that his father would be the one to kill him. Which he isn't. Oh, yeah, he gives the order, but M'Shen does the deed. I wonder if Nighthaunter realised he was wrong?

GFP


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

i was just wondering a litle something and bare with me here. Everyone always assumes the Emperor is the PERFECT being, but what would his flaws be? You have written some good stuff which has caused one heck of a thread debate GFP :biggrin: but as of yet i have never seen anything about the Emperors flaws.
For me the Emperor had an ideal and like most of histories leaders he has crusaded to bring his way and his rule to the myriad of worlds with his sons at his back and what a glorious crisade it was - if imperial history is to be taken as canon. 
after all since the emperors entombment much has been re-written and destroyed which in real terran history is the same, when Christianity became a dominant religon a lot was omitted and rewritten as it did not fit the Pope and Churchs view of how it should be.
I think the Emperor had his flaws and in my opinion one of them was this, he thouht that he could just collect his sons from where they had ben scattered and get them to do his will without question and with utter devotion which admitlidly at first they did, but unlike Horus who was all but raised by his father, the others were products of the workld that they landed on and therefore their perceptions and personalities shaped by such worlds.
if the emperor wanted a peaceful soloution send in the ultramarines, a violent conclusion send in the world eaters or night lords, clense whole systems send in the lunar wolves etc etc..
my point is this, the emperor never allowed for the fact that his sons all had thier own way of doing things, it was hs way or no way, do as i say not as i do. he had risen so far above humanity that he was barely human anymore, he said he did not want to be a god, well to ordinary humans he would appear to be but for that he oders them cleansed.
he was never consistent in his endevours, war with the World Eaters then tell Angron to quit doing the one thing that made the World Eaters successful at what they did, let the Word Bearers do the crusade thier way then hammer Lorgar and compare him to a son whose achievements whilst certainly not better then lorgars, were completed faster and that sowed dissent. 
if a governor tries to apease his populace and find a different way of doing things then send in the nightlords to sort it out but oh no the moment two brothers fight - and i conceed it was almost a fratricide - he is revealed to be horified by the night lods tactics adn wants to punish them.
there is more i am sure but i am curious as to what everone else thinks., to me the emperor was not perfect, his way was not always right and his flaw was his ego simple as that to me thinking that he could change the inherant flaws in his sons or use them and then discard those same flaws when it suited.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Arrogance in the extreme. 

To think he could trick the Chaos Gods and get away with it clean?

To toy with a c`tan in the hopes of increasing humanity`s tech level?

Hubris, plain and simple.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

makes me wonder if the emperoro was a chaos godgoiven the ultimate human form now that would be a twist in the tail


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

That theory has been thrown around before, along with many others. The truth is not likely to ever be known, unless GW wants to make it known. 

As if...


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

no matter what happens in the world of 40k the emperor will never truely be known. Lets face it too many people have high ranked fingers in the pie. the power holders are never going to let go of an inch of it.
so blacken history, make the empeoror infaliable....it serves thier purpose....maybe, just maybe lorgar and horus, fulgrim and the others were right...who knows.


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## Komrad (Oct 30, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Arrogance in the extreme.
> 
> To think he could trick the Chaos Gods and get away with it clean?
> 
> ...


Stealing C'tan tech? allo allo whats all this then, he attempted to steal Nerontyr inventionmabobs? The little raskle!


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

OK, so we get to the more difficult ones; although, some are more difficult-er than others...

Angron. I've wracked my brains (honest, Guv!) about this one. Was it Pride? No, because I think that all of the Primarchs have different flaws, and Horus is the Prideful one. Was it Honour? I've got another candidate for that (can you guess who?) Was it as simple as Anger? I don't think so, but I believe an untampered-with Angron would have had issues with that. And there I hit the nub on the head, bullseye! Straight into the second pocket, for Par and 40-15.
The psycho-surgery that Angron underwent totally destroyed what would have been his personality. We see in the short story, 'After De-Shea", that stress triggers the implants and sets him off. He dearly wants to be able to think, you can tell from his pain (I think it is a really well written story); but he can't, the Butcher's Nails in his head stop it.
He's not used to thinking, he was always someone for whom action was everything; I imagine the planning of the slave-revolt would have been actively helped by his hyper-aggression. His insistence on his new Legion undergoing the same surgery shows he doesn't value much thought- just look at Kharn who seems to be thoughtful and resourceful and who's mind is utterly wasted. And so, when Horus eventually turns, Angron is just so easy to convince. The Emperor has already left Angron bereft of honour, taking him from his slave-brothers and -sisters. He then snubs him (at least in Angron's mind) for Horus as Warmaster. He is now comfortable as wrath incarnate and, even without the Heresy, I don't doubt that he would have fallen to his barbarity at some point.
But as for his flaws? Erased with his rational mind.

GFP


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Komrad said:


> Stealing C'tan tech? allo allo whats all this then, he attempted to steal Nerontyr inventionmabobs? The little raskle!


Not the inventamabobs, he stole the fucking c`tan itself! Read Mechanicum.


@GFP: Angron is a toughie to analyse, but I think you covered the issue pretty well. I`d always thought myself that it was a combination of his painful youth and psychosurgery that destroyed his rationality. Granted, that seems pretty obvious, but I never thought to explore his character any more deeply until I read this.

Good work on this thread. :good:


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

and when Angron does show some semblance of rationality (ergo when he told edolon to respect his betters) he alsways has Kharn by his side, its as if the young captain is the one lynchpin that Angron can count on to be his rational mind, De-shea is a fantastic story and one that i enjoyed reading so yeah kudos GFP you have captured Angron perfectly and of all the traitor primarchs he is the one that i feel most sorry for, his treatment at the hands of the gladiator masters makes him the most tragic of all.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I know the Emperor gets a lot of stick for seeming to abandon Angron to his new Legion. Maybe we will find out more about their interactions in a later book, I'd love for that. But just thinking about the situation, what is the chance that the Emperor is utterly unmanned by what has been done to his son?
It's not like Angron is slightly changed by his surgery; rather he has basically had his mind short-circuited to default into rage and aggression whenever stress is applied. He can't think, only act. And he can only act if it involves hitting things until they squish, or he is planning how he will get himself and his Legion into a position where they can make things go squish. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if Kharn ends up being the de-facto head of the Legion, the power behind the throne as it were, doing the thinking that Angron can't do. But the Emperor, he is re-united with one of his sons, something that drives him across the galaxy, and what does he find? Angron is a mockery of a Primarch; in fact, apart from his obvious abilities in combat, and as a charismatic rallying point for his gene-sons, he is barely a shadow of a human. How does a doting father cope with that? The Emperor may have looked at his son and realised that there was nothing he could do, that a being who was literally a part of him was ruined by fools and degenerates. We look at the Emperor as being too removed from Humanity, but if he is, then how would the rush of grief for his fallen son manifest? It might be a spike of pain that he'd not felt for millennia, a wrench that he mightn't have felt since he outlived his first children in Anatolia 38,000 years ago. How does a god-elect deal with his Humanity and the realisation that he can't do anything? How many people just run away from what they can't handle? The Emperor deserves our pity too.

GFP


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Right, nearly there!

Perturabo. The last two Primarchs are the ones that have given me the most difficulties. I had hoped to be able to narrow it down to a single, major flaw that was the basis of their psychological collapse under pressure, but with Perturabo and Mortarion, I don't think I can really do that. I'm still going to try, though...

Perturabo, to me, has his weakness in his over-developed sense of honour and fair-play; I actually find, after coming to this conclusion, that I identify with him more than any other Primarch. Perturabo knows, and siege warfare has been a particularly hard teacher, that when you go to war it's not all about glory and smashing victories. Indeed, as we can see in our own world, what happens after the war is just, and maybe more, important. Pertuabo sees this and knows that garrison duty, although dull and boring, is a necessarry evil. But then his boys fall to the default choice for this; they are patient, as ther ability to carry long-term sieges shows, and the frantic action after the siege shows that their abilities aren't dulled by long periods of relative inaction. He goes along with this but then more and more of the other Primarchs, and seemingly the Emperor himself, start to see the IWs as the people who do the inglorious stuff in the aftermath of complaince.
Again, Perturabo goes along with this, but when his Legion is becoming more and more fractured he starts to fume and rail against it. Why don't the others pull their weight with the shitty jobs? But Perturabo can't say anything. His sense of fair-play means that crappy jobs that need to be done are obvious- him and his Legion have done their part, it's up to the others to do theirs. When they don't his honour stops him from speaking out- he isn't going to put himself in a position where anyone can accuse him of whining about things, and he's not going to ask for what others should plainly be able to see is their duty. He's not there to tell anyone else what their job is, but only because he feels that he shouldn't need to.
And then the bitterness sets in. Once he sees that no-one will ever take notice, that he will be left, alone, to take on the deathly dull sieges and garrison duty, with smaller and smaller groups of Astartes guarding a world, he reaches a point where he no longer cares anymore. He feels no-one cares about him or his gene-sons, and so changes his methods- no longer is it about compliance, or even the Imperium, it is about the IWs finally cutting loose and doing what they want to do. Of course, they stick with the sieges because that's what they're best at. But the siege also allows for a fig-leaf cover to Perturabo's honour; the people inside the fortress know that if they surrender before the final attack begins, they will be allowed to live (although as it goes on, I imagine the time for surrender is made shorter and shorter); if they wait until the walls are breached, then it's hard-luck- there is no quarter given. To anyone.
By the time Horus is looking for allies, Perturabo is utterly liberated. He gave his best for his brothers, but they let him down again and again, Horus amongst them. But what is being offered to Perturabo is the chance to make the galaxy realise just what a power the IWs really are. Dorn, and his bragging, will finally be shown for the smoke-screen that it is, and Perturabo and his Legion will finally have thier freedom.
The tradgedy here is that that freedom is just an illusion. The IWs just carry on doing what they had always done, just with more brutality. If only Perturabo had been able to speak-out, would they have stayed loyal?

GFP


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Perturabo seems to be the one most forgoten by BL. in fact Honsou is the first glimpse i have had into the world of the Iron Warriors but from what little i can gather they are a brooding bunch, not only betrayed by the emperor in thier opinion but the other primarchs.
Paranoia seems to have bred into them during the ten thousand years they have been traitors to the Imperium so if Perturabo deigns to make an appraeance again from the bowels of Medrengrad the heavens alone know what he will be like.
i think in a way not only the emperor but the other primarchs betrayed Perturabo. go to war with them for complance but then "oh its ok we'll leave Perturabo and his boys to keep the peace, they do such a good job of it" or "me? have my Dark Angels garrison a world, i think not, that is more Perturabos job not mine...next world please" 
they seem to forget that he is the bst at what he does and that he is a consumate warrior perhapes with more honour then any of them put together.
but look at it another way, Perturabo was distant from all his brothers and they in turn were jealous of his command of technology and the way he designed war with the use of technology that made his brothers seem inept, so if Horus wanted to sway Perturabo what better way then to keep him doing siege warfare so that the only escape they had was killing, a catharsis that was needed to release the boredom they must have felt.
would he have stayed loya? i think he might have done if he had been treated a little beter by his father and the others, and if his skills in other areas had been acknowledged more then just one area.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Right, nearly there!
> 
> Perturabo, to me, has his weakness in his over-developed sense of honour and fair-play


I`m rather fond of your efforts in this thread, but I feel, without flaying to harshly, this is drastically wrong. I mean, the Iron Cage incident proved how Perturabo`s strive for vengeance against the Imperial Fists squandered any honour he had. Luring Dorn and his Legion into a trap, bringing them to siege, as Dorn hoped (and thus to prove his superiority once and for all) when infact the fortress Dorn assaulted was little more than a ''Cage'' used to contain him, whilst the Iron Warriors slaughtered them until Guilliman relieved his brother. It showed how honourless Perturabo was, and for the destruction of many Imperial Fists Geneseeds, he was rewarded with Daemonhood by the Ruinous Powers.

Infact, even his typical method of Siege warfare is certainly not fair-play. Crushing your opponent, crippling them and forcing them near the chasm of destruction by superior weaponry, before launching an overwhelming assault relies far more upon technological achieve than tactical genius, exhibited by the Ultramarines, Luna Wolves and Emperor`s Children.

Just my take


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Thing is, Bobbs, the Iron Cage is after the Siege of Terra, so Perturabo has become a traitor. As I said, his ense of honour and fair-play have been used up before Horus turns, which is why, even though Horus was one of those who let the IWs languish as a divided and unregarded Legion, Perturabo is willing to go along with the attack on the Imperium. The giving quarter to those who surrender before the breaching of the walls, is just a fig-leaf- nothing more than a token effort by Perturabo to give himself permission to become so brutal. Eventually, he doesn't even need this anymore and he is totally, well in his own mind, liberated to do as he pleases. His betrayed honour and fair-play were the reasons he could betray the Emperor; once he did that it's all up in the air and I agree that he has no, or at least a very twisted, sense of honour.
As for a siege being not too difficult, I think the scale of Great Crusade-era fortresses (fortressi?- I like that much better, even if it is wrong!) is far beyond anything seen on our world, built with incredibly hard-wearing materials and almost impossible to crack. Add to that the probability that there are years of supplies inside, and that there are probably even, still, ways to get re-inforcements in. Perturabo not only overcomes all of these things, he is also able to pinpoint the weaknesses that such a fortress would have. He looks it over and, almost instictively knows where he needs to apply the pressure to bring it all crashing down. He doesn't care how long the siege takes, after all he wants to ensure there is no wasted effort, that when the breach is made his sons are there to take advantage and wipe the place from existence. Like all of his brothers he is a genius, and his achievements were far beyond those of mortals who would have been forced to into retreat in the face of such resistance.

GFP


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

With regard to Angron, there is one obvious question: why didn't the Emperor have his implants removed? He certainly had the technology, and the implants themselves were so crude I would be surprised they would be difficult to detect. Actually, that spawns a second question. If Primarch physiology is so bizarre that the Imperium's greatest doctors have no idea how to treat Guilliman, how is it that some backwater yahoos can successfully install rage implants designed for humans in Angron?


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Maybe the Emperor couldn't heal Angron? We don't really know much about the implants he has, nor those that the rest of his Legion are given; it could be that they cause irrepairable damage when they are implanted.
As for the backwater yahoos being able to put them in in the first place, I imagine it was much of a 'suck it and see' type deal. The surgeons did the deed and jutst hoped that the brain they were dealing with was like that of the other slaves. From the descriptions of the Primarchs, it seems clear that they _aren't_ like humans. But, in saying that, I feel that they might all be different, to a greater or lesser extent, from each other. Look at Ahriman when he describes Magnus' body as being full of light, with no mundane organs, seemingly, present. So it could be that some of the Primarchs have bodys that are more human-like than others, OR it could be that their body is physically different at different times.
Primarch physiology is something that we don't know much about, the same thing with the full details of what happened to each of these exceptional siblings. We know that Angron's brain was similar enough to a normal human's to allow the surgeons to implant the butcher's nails (at least at the time of implantation, and in their continuing functioning). We know that the Emperor didn't take them out- we don't know, for certain, wether he actually attempted to do so and failed, or even if he examined them and realised that any attempt was doomed to failure. Like I said, if he saw, from the start, that there was nothing he could do, well, how might that have affected him emotionally? What fluff we have says that the Emperor didn't spend much time with Angron, and many people think poorly of him for this. But what if Angron continuosly reacted poorly to the Emperor's presence? If he will not calm down when his father is present, then, like it or not, for there to be any chance of getting his son to accept what has happened, the Emperor will have to leave. 

GFP


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

This seems to be tailing off. Thanks to all of the people who dropped by and offered their opinions. I'd love for you all to come back (and bring a friend!) and really have at my theory. At least that way we might, possibly, edge closer to a better understanding of the Primarchs and what made them tick.

So, finally, we get to Mortarion. He, of all of the Primarchs, has given me the greatest difficulty in categorising. Of them all, he is the one who doesn't have a flaw that I can describe with a single name and describe what it is. So, for what it's worth, here goes...
When he was found on Barbarus, he was taken in by a powerful warlord. Growing up quickly in the way of all the Primarchs, he was soon taking part in the raids this warlord ordered, attacking the tribes of Humans who lived below the poisonous clouds, the same clouds that kept the warlords safe from retaliation, and that gave Mortarion his resistance to poison and hardy, even for a Primarch, constitution.
Then, one fateful day, Mortarion actually travels to one of these villages and talks to the people who live there. This is the thing that, I feel, is the defining point of his life, and the hinge on which his betrayl hangs. He finds out that contrary to what his adoptive father has been telling him, the attacks on the villages are purely punitive and done for the amusement of the warlords, and the furtherance of their twisted experiments. Mortarion's world is turned upside-down with this knowledge; he was so sure of his mission and now it has all turned to ash, shown to be lies that have pushed him to murder and maim for things he could never support or believe in.
To make amends, to himself as much as the Humans I suspect, he leads the fightback, defeating the warlords in turn until only the most powerful, his erstwile adoptive father, remains. He tries his hardest, but even the physiology of a Primarch strengthened by the constant exposure to the poisonus atmosphere of Barbarus, can't allow him to achieve his goal. He lies at the mercy of the last, all-powerful warlord when the Emperor appears and saves him. Son and father re-unite and, with him being given his Legion, all appears well.
But there is always the shadow that the early deception left in his soul. He believes in the vision of the Emperor, so does his Legion, and they are instrumental in the victories of the Great Crusade. Yet the Emperor seems to be becoming more powerful and then removes himself from the Crusade. Does Mortarion see a parallel with his false father retreating to his castle? Hiding in his place of strength where none can harm him, not even the mightiest of Primarchs? If it isn't an overt feeling of betrayl, I think it is something that deep down is gnawing at him; maybe he can't even give voice to what he feels, rather it is a formless fear that sits in the pit of his mind, eating at him but not revealing itself. Until Horus talks of rebellion and betrayl.
The way Horus talks to his silent brother is the mark of the master politician and motivator Horus is. As first-found of the Primarchs, I think Horus would be intimately familiar with the details of the discovery. At first this is just information that he can rejoice in, tales of import that show how the Emperor and his Crusade get only more powerful. But in his time of betrayl, this information is a way for him to see into the deepest make-up of each Primarch's psyche. He tells Mortarion that the Emperor is removing himself to Terra to further his own ends, that everyone else, Primarch, Astartes, Human, are all to be sacrificed for the Emperor's goals. And this cuts straight to that betrayl that Mortarion felt on Barbarus. Suddenly it must all have fallen into place. How could he not have seen it? And surely Horus wouldn't lie, would he? His eyes are opened to the reality (or at least the reality Horus wants him to see) all over again, and he reacts just as he did on Barbarus.
Maybe his flaw was that he was unable to trust, that deep down he was always waiting for those he loved and trusted to turn their back on him? Maybe the events on Barbarus didn't start anything, but just highlighted it and made Mortarion over-sensitive to any perceived betrayl, even betrayl that wasn't there?

GFP

Alpharius/Omegon vexes me. Loyalist or Traitor? Both? Neither? Let me know what you all think and if you reckon they are traitors, then I'll see if I can think of a flaw. Ideas start to percolate...


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I appear to be a few days late to the Perturabo discussion but what the heck I'll have a stab at it anyway.

I agree, for the most part, with your assessment GFP but I see Perturabo's greatest flaw as being his lack of faith and empathy- not in any religious sense obviously but that he didn't seem to accept anything that he couldn't scientifically prove, he believed in mundane things like his weaponry because he knew everything it could and couldn't do- there was no room for doubt.

But with his brothers and father he could never seem to understand that intagible idea of brotherhood and mutual trust- he obeyed Horus and undoubtedly respected him as a General and warrior but I don't think he could ever truely grasp the sense of unity Lupercal inspired in others.

Unlike the Lion he could read people, but his understanding was mired in analytical equations of cause and effect rather than empathy.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Yep, I agree that he was certainly a remote figure to his brothers, keeping himself off to one side, keeping a certain distance between himself and the other Primarchs. I can see a lack of trust; he knows he can trust his weapons and his tactics, and he knows he can trust his Astartes- he trained them and sets an example for them to follow, so he knows what he's getting.
As for the lack of empathy, I think that might be a symptom. His honour is being really tested by his being stuck with garrison-duty all the time, and so he becomes more remote from his siblings than ever, not caring about what they think or feel, utterly uninterested in their comradeship and family feelings because they don't deserve it.
However, having said that his lack of empathy might be a symptom of the annoyance he felt with his brothers, I think you are right that Perturabo would be cold and aloof to those outside of his Legion. He would probably look at the Remembrancers and Administrators and see people who got in the way, who didn't see the machinery of war and conflict and how it all fitted together, like the cogs and gears of some awesome machine. 
Good call Baron! His lack of faith in his brothers exacerbates how he's feeling after being left with the shitty jobs; he can't see that it's just his brothers shirking the crap because they don't want to do it, rather seeing it as more personally motivated against him. Is that the sort of thing you mean?

GFP


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Sort of, definitely with his predilection towards paranoia it would have been an unpleasant combination.

Despite his, virtually, unparalleled skill with siege-craft I see him as being the most short sighted of the Primarchs. He was consumed by the present, what was happening now, he was the perfect soldier- fiercely intelligent and obedient. But he wasn't a general on par with his brethren, he couldn't accept the existence of the big plan, the long view, whatever you want to call it.

He had no faith that other's knew better than he, not that he was overly arrogant like Magnus, that the ideals they espoused might not just be a useful tool but what they actually *believed*.


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## Yllib Enaz (Jul 15, 2010)

Excellent thread GFP



Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> His lack of faith in his brothers exacerbates how he's feeling after being left with the shitty jobs; he can't see that it's just his brothers shirking the crap because they don't want to do it, rather seeing it as more personally motivated against him. Is that the sort of thing you mean?


The impression I was was always left with was that he suffered from the so called "people pleasing syndrome", many of whose characteristics you have just described. A primarch with a socially self defeating lack of self confidence.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I'm going to call, for the moment, AlphariusOmegon a traitor. From what we know of the Great Crusade/early Heresy era, it is debatable just what their motivation is, but certainly from a 40k perspective the Alpha Legion are traitors. And this might be the key to any flaw...
It is incredibly difficult for me to really ascribe a flaw to the Primarch(s) of the XX Legion, mainly because we don't know that much about them. Even Legion only gave us a pencil sketch because, at the end when the real desicion has to be made, we don't know what it was. We get given a titbit, but that doesn't reconcile with what we know of the Legion's activities in the 'present'. So?
I think that AlphariusOmegon have a prediliction for getting too clever and involved with their schemes. We know the Alpha's Primarch would absent himself from important missions, just to see how well his troops did without him; I would contend that he'd only do that if he had an idea that they wouldn't screw the pooch too hard. But this does suggest some conceit on his part. He knows his training, and ethos, is so flexible and strong that it can outweigh the negatives of a Primarch suddenly disappearing.
This sort of fits with the actions that we see the XX Legion take- nothing is as it seems, layers within layers within meanings within elaborate fakes. The twins are confident that they know everything they need to know, that they can navigate through their own games with no problems, that those they have trained can also do so. But what if they were wrong? They are too confident and lose themselves in their games; the people they have trained aren't clever enough and make it impossible for anyone to see through the lies. And so the Legion, once so confident and sure, becomes lost in its own smokescreen.
So that's something on what flaw they might have. Too confident, too enamoured with scemes and plans. This might explain why they are seen, and act, as traitors. Lost amid a sea of unknowns and unknowables, unable to cut through it all, the Legion is split into innumerable factions, all just fighting for their own goals and desires. The two Primarchs, if they are alive, I think, are trying to play the game, still, for their own ends- one loyal, one fallen, and maybe they will swap, just to prove that they can still play the game. The game which has caused them to play themselves into bit-part players who no-one can trust, and who go their own way.

GFP


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

*"... he was the perfect soldier- fiercely intelligent and obedient. But he wasn't a general..." -Baron* 
Well said.

As to Alpharius, I could picture him being the smart ass of the brothers. Always bringing something to a different level. "We aren't really traitors... we are saving the Imperium..." Or like when they besieged Tesstra Prime, he says something in the lines of it being to easy. His pride and arrogance made him virtually hated by every other primarch except for Horus. So in that sense I'm not really surprised he joined him, despite the Cabal telling Alpharius/Omegon they were doing good in joining Chaos.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Alpharius Omegon did not join Chaos. They joined Horus. 

Sorry to have missed the thread for so long GFP.

Perturabo: I know so little about IW bar what Graham McNeill has written about them and the codexes, but I imagine you would be right about his growing resentment over the course of the crusade. To him, Horus` betrayal must have been like a shining oppurtunity to prove himself and his legion.

Mortarion: I have never liked the Death Guard, and have little interest in their fluff. However, I agree completely with your analysis here.

The Alpha and the Omega: Probably the most interesting of the "traitor" legions, the AL have been a source of amusement to me for some time. Are they loyal? Traitor? Neither? Both? Who knows? And the primarchs are even more mysterious. Which decision would they make and why? You`ve assumed they are traitors, and your reasoning is sound. But if they chose to stay loyal? 

Perhaps they sided with Horus, for the reasons the cabal gave. Maybe they were willing at first to sacrifice humanity for the rest of the galaxy. But what if their minds changed halfway through? 

:wink:


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I assumed that the AL went traitor becuase that allowed me to explore any flaws that might have caused it; the thread, after all, is called A _Traitor's_ Flaws

If they have stayed loyal, then there isn't a flaw that caused them to fall, if you get what I mean. Besides, I'm sure that joining Horus means joining Chaos- you mightn't want to actually worship the ruinous powers, or indulge in murder and mayhem, but fighting aginst the Imperium during the Heresy sort of, de facto, makes you a pawn of Chaos.
I have persuaded myself that the AL don't know themselves what they are fighting for, or even want. If the Primarchs are still alive I don't think they are in full control anymore, or, if they do retain some control, there are lots of rogue agents who are just using the AL to further their own ends. They could be making more Legionnaires beyonf the control of Alpharius- they could be doing anything...

GFP


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I understand. Just adding my own musings...

AL are, imo, deliberately left as vague as possible to excite fan interest. The missing legion thing is so terribly old and unneeded now (just spill it already GW!) so I think the AL might be the new mystery boys?


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I imagine it will all go in cycles; just after Legion came out, you couldn't move for people saying the Alpha Legion was the Imperium and Chaos and the Necrons and the Old Ones. There was probably a time when the Lost Legions were a staple of DIY Chapter creation. It'll probably all come around again.
The only thing I would like to see is more creativity on the part of the hobbyists. All ideas are of some worth if we can distill them into something that is logically, or even thematically, consistent with the 40k 'verse.
To swing back OT for a moment, I wonder if the behaviour of the traitor Legions would give a view onto the flaws of their Primogenitors? Would the DG have issues with being betrayed by authority? Is Abbaddon fuelled by wounded pride? Do the EC still have a soupcon of inferiority driving them into excess?

GFP


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## Komrad (Oct 30, 2008)

A somwhat lack of sanity or grip of reality?
-shows Khorne berzerker headbutting wall- 'BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!


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## Primarch Lorgar (Jul 11, 2009)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Lorgar mightn't have been anyone's fool, but he was certainly not able to take charge of his own life. Everything he did was for someone else. And I don't mean for the good of others (although he proabably thought that), I mean that it was always for a being greater than him. I did actually consider if he had a _superiority_ complex, that he could only be moved to action if those asking him were sufficiently powerful; after all, he doesn't work for mortals, look at him- why wouldn't he wait for gods to ask him to work for them?
> GFP


LIAR!!!!!!!! and that wasn't for anyone but me!:laugh:


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## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

I think arrogance was the catalyst for ALL of the traitor Primarchs' fall but not the ***** in the armor itself.

For example:

Magnus was arrogant in the extreme, yes... but what REALLY made him turn? What made him vulnerable? We know he'd bargained with Chaos long before the Heresy. Why would he do that? Arrogance? Maybe. He thought he could handle it or that his knowledge was enough to save him from taking a misstep. Let's be more fundamental than that though. Why would he turn to Chaos powers rather than his father?

A lack of faith.

The Emperor warned him not to go too far, withheld some teachings, etc. Magnus wasn't satisfied. He hungered. He hungered for more knowledge, more power. It wasn't arrogance per se. He just had a philosophy that knowledge for its own sake was NEVER a bad thing and the Emperor's barriers conflicted with that. He didn't simply trust the Emperor to know what was necessary and so he went on his own. Here the arrogance came into play because he had to think, on some level, that his abilities were more than the Emperor was giving him credit for. "I can handle it, dad" 

Lion El'Jonson is an interesting case because while he didn't turn traitor himself (some have argued that he would have) he did trigger heresy in others. Here, his lack of ability to interact well with others caused him to stir up disloyalty and resentment in others, and probably didn't have any clue he was doing it. Luther was as close to Primarch-hood as it is possible to come without actually having been created as a Primarch. That, at any other time and in any other setting, would have made him as legendary a warrior and leader as any Primarch would. The Lion failed to realize this and give him the ability to distinguish himself on his own, as any such individual craves. 

This, coupled with the exile of Luther for his brief lapse, sealed it. The Lion created Luther as a traitor as surely as if he'd recruited the man to Chaos himself.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Magnus didn't turn to his father for help because his dad had already told him that if he did what he did, he would be truly FUBAR-d. Collected Visions is very clear on this saying that if Magnus continued to treat with the warp, he would be broken, his Legion destroyed and all of them exised from Imperial history. But by this point it didn't matter; arrogance had already pushed Magnus into extremis of behaviour and action, blinding him to what was actually happening and making him into a tool for another to sabotage the Emperor.
I've got to say that, I feel, that Magnus' motivation and flaw is almost beyond doubt; A Thousand Sons shows his arrogance was overweaning from the start and only got greater.
I partly agree with your view on the Lion. However, I think part of this was Luther's inability to pull himself out of the shadow of the Primarch. I think it says a lot about the raw charisma of the Emperor's sons that even someone as accomplished as Luther still couldn't show that, as no-one was looking at him, and in the presence of the Lion he couldn't ignore the almost instinctual bond and push for loyalty. Although the Lion's lack of interpersonal skills will certainly have made it harder for Luther to bear being in the shadow; even if someone totally overshadows you and pulls all of the focus, if they, at least, show you how much they value you then you will be happy. I reckon you've got something, actually.

GFP


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Fantastic and enthralling thread gfp. Certainly thought provoking. Rep


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I thought what primarly got half the legion to side with Luther and pretty much in my view got Luther and that side to go against the Imperium was that the Lion's army was composed of a exclusive knight organization that still felt that that specific knight organization was still something to live by. Having the Imperium put them under rule was not part of that code.


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## Bloody Mary (Nov 6, 2009)

I always figured that one of the problems with Lion was that he was very dependant on Luther. Luther was the person who found him, his older brother and his strongest supporter. As long as Lion is convinced Luther is somebody he can turn for support everything is fine. And then, just after Lion learns that there was an attempt on his life, Luther tells him how jealous of Lion he is. Right when Lion needs his support, he gets none and panics. Who can he trust if he can't trust Luther?


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Even from what has been written, the exact nature of the faultline between the Lion and Luther is still elusive. It might even be that the Lion started to feel overshadowed by Luther; after what happened around Sarosh, maybe the Lion looked back on his life and felt that he'd done nothing on his own, everything he'd done had been mediated by Luther. So, when the Lion sends Luther away he feels relieved and liberated, finally able to do things his way.
Of course, Luther is still a force to be reckoned with. I would think that putting him in charge of Calibinite recruitment is almost a back-handed compliment because it is so vital to the DAs and the Imperium. Luther is a genius in many fields and he has the thing running like clockwork but, eventually, is betrayed by short-sighted Administratum Adepts making the native population unhappy. The business with the warp, later, just muddys the water. It seems, at least to me, that the actual psychic ritual was to banish the entity, rather than summon it. Floundering about without full knowledge of what is happening, dealing with phenomena that the DAs consider anathema; all of this induces a feeling of paranoia that leads up to the betrayl, when news of who was fighting whom was sketchy. Add in to that some people who might have been pushed off-balance by what has been happening (Astelan, maybe?) and you end up with the misunderstanding to end all.

GFP


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