# Ollanius Pius - How does he fit in?



## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Yes before we get started, I know Ollanius Pius has been retconned out of existence and replaced with an Adeptus Custodes in the seminal moment.

But for the benefit of those who don't know, in an earlier edition of 40k when the Emperor went up to fight Horus on _The Vengeful Spirit_ in addition to Sanguinus, Dorn, some Space Marines, and his own loyal Custodes, he brought himself some guardsmen.

One of these was an poor unknown sod ever after known by the moniker of Ollanius Pius, whom, in the end became patron saint of the Imperial Guard.

Why? Because this man, like the most badass motherfucker who ever lived, stepped between Horus and the Emperor, right after Horus killed Sanguninus and shouted, right in the man's face; 

_"Where I fall ten more shall take my place! And one-hundred each of them! So strike me down! I am the harbinger!"_

Before being flayed alive with a glance by the Arch-traitor, allowing the Emperor to see what his son had become and decide to end Horus.

What my question here is, how does Ollanius Pius fit into canon for you? Is he retconned out? Do you stubbornly cleave to him? Interpret it that the Custodes defend the body of the Emperor, so he was posthumously declared a Custodes for the sheer balls of what he was doing?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Three things. One, I doubt he would have been able to survive the daemon attacks prior to finding Horus mentally and physically unless the Emperor shielded him which would make bringing him along only to defend him constantly pointless.

Secondly, I don't see how the Emperor would have found the death of his son less eye-opening than a random Imperial Guardsmen/human. The death of a human should not have been the catalyst for the Emperor to realize Horus could not be redeemed.

Thirdly, it was a battle taking place in the skies meant for superhumans who have long ago discarded their humanity to determine mankind's fate.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

It will be interesting to see which character the Heresy series decides to roll with; Ollanius, a Custodian, an Astartes or someone completely different. The Heresy series has thus far cleared up a few issues of 30k-lore inconsistency, e.g. the Veridian system.

Personally, i've found the character of Ollanius Pius the most interesting out of the different versions of the tale. But all the more recent versions have gone with Custodes/Astartes.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Why speculate when we can wait for the series to answer the question for us in ten years? :crazy: 

Personally I think the story has merit regardless of who Ollanius was.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Personally, i've found the character of Ollanius Pius the most interesting out of the different versions of the tale. But all the more recent versions have gone with Custodes/Astartes.


But why would the Emperor bring a human with him to the heart of the heresy itself where he could achieve absolutely nothing?

The Emperor couldn't convince him to not come?

Meh.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Ok Malus, to straighten out a few things, one this paticular bit was canon waaaaaaay back in Rogue Trader, where everything was kinda weird, 

two it is a fact that it was at one point, already established canon, 

three supposedly this nameless guardsman was actually one of a large number of guardsmen brought up to support the Custodes and Space marines (y'know, guardsmen are important too)

four, he DIDN'T survive Horus' attack, he was flayed alive with a glance. He's a martyr y'know, seeing as half the saints in 40k AND the real world are martyrs it's not unreasonable

Five, the Emperor saw that Horus was beyond saving because when he came in (according to established canon as it stands right now, this might be changed by the Horus heresy books) Sanguinus was already on the floor, dead, the emperor still thought his favored son could be saved, and the reason Ollanius Pius set him off was because the emperor hadn't seen Horus kill an innocent bystander out of just spite before, not even taking into account that the emperor just watched a mortal man step in front of a demigod to try and defend him. It was kind of the indication of how far gone Horus was.

And finally, as a Lord of the Rings fan, it was transmitting the same kind of message. A very inspiring one too.

"Courage can come from the smallest and weakest of places"

Here we have a mortal man, scared out of his wits, his mind beset by psychological horrors heretofore undreamed of, he could have turned his weapon on himself, saving the Daemons the trouble, given into the madness and joined Horus by firing at the emperor trying to curry favor with the supposed winner.

What does he do? He goes up to a man who can, and did utterly destroy him with the slightest amount of effort and he knows it. He says right to this man's face "This man behind me is my emperor, and you shall not touch him, and even if you strike me down, there will be another to take my place, and another, and another and another. So go ahead. I dare you to do it."

He gets flayed alive by a blink.

You mean to tell me that The God-Emperor of Mankind, who is supposed to be the very EMBODIMENT of all that is great and terrible about humanity, whom has dedicated himself to ensuring not only the survival of humanity, but everything that makes humans what we are, would be completely unmoved by this exemplar of simple, human courage?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> four, he DIDN'T survive Horus' attack, he was flayed alive with a glance. He's a martyr y'know, seeing as half the saints in 40k AND the real world are martyrs it's not unreasonable


In Collected Visions, the Emperor has to battle his way to Horus with some Custodes. If a human was with him, he would not have survived for even a nanosecond unless the Emperor protected him mentally and physically which would just make him a burden.



Nicholas Hadrian said:


> Five, the Emperor saw that Horus was beyond saving because when he came in (according to established canon as it stands right now, this might be changed by the Horus heresy books) Sanguinus was already on the floor, dead, the emperor still thought his favored son could be saved


And yet it took the death of a human for it to finally sink in? Was Sang.'s death worth less to the Emperor than a human's?



Nicholas Hadrian said:


> and the reason Ollanius Pius set him off was because the emperor hadn't seen Horus kill an innocent bystander out of just spite before


Sang. was innocent was he not?



Nicholas Hadrian said:


> not even taking into account that the emperor just watched a mortal man step in front of a demigod to try and defend him.


Why was he there in the first place?



Nicholas Hadrian said:


> And finally, as a Lord of the Rings fan, it was transmitting the same kind of message. A very inspiring one too.
> 
> "Courage can come from the smallest and weakest of places"
> 
> ...


I agree. I actually do like the image of a mere human standing up against the living embodiment of all four Chaos powers. This is the sort of morale boosting propaganda the post-heresy Imperium thrives upon. 

But realistically speaking, he would have pissed his pants or vomited his guts out as soon as he teleported on board the Vengeful Spirit. The ship was a living, breathing Chaos organism at that time, not even the bravest of humans would be able to even think properly once inside.



Nicholas Hadrian said:


> You mean to tell me that The God-Emperor of Mankind, who is supposed to be the very EMBODIMENT of all that is great and terrible about humanity, whom has dedicated himself to ensuring not only the survival of humanity, but everything that makes humans what we are, would be completely unmoved by this exemplar of simple, human courage?


Why was the loss of his son not taken into account? Why was it not the catalyst to the Emperor casting all doubts aside? At least with the Custodes replacing the human, it's more believable since they all personally know the Emperor and vice-versa and are by his side at all times.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> In Collected Visions, the Emperor has to battle his way to Horus with some Custodes. If a human was with him, he would not have survived for even a nanosecond unless the Emperor protected him mentally and physically which would just make him a burden.
> 
> And yet it took the death of a human for it to finally sink in? Was Sang.'s death worth less to the Emperor than a human's?
> 
> ...


First off, Sanguinus was far from a bystander, he was directly challenging Horus, which, in the emperor's determination to think that his favorite son could do no wrong, and could in fact be redeemed, could have easily rationalized it as "Sanguinus attacked Horus, Horus killed Sanguinus trying to defend himself, he should have waited for me, I am sure I can still talk Horus down and get this whole thing called off."

The real question I have is why are you fighting the fact that at one time this was deemed reasonable canon?

Where did it ever say that a human stepping foot onto the Vengeful Spirit would have died instantly?

Who's to say hundreds, maybe even thousands didn't, the anonymous Ollanius Pius only survivineg because he was lucky enough to be behind a wall of bodies as the guardsmen auxillaries fought to establish a beachhead on the ship?

As for the Emperor protecting him thing, the original interpretation was, I belive, Pius is lost wandering the ship, his unit wiped out, stumbles upon the climactic duel by sheer dumb luck, sees the emperor fall and in a moment of suicidal bravery throws himself before his downed monarch. See? he need'nt have even been part of the emperor's strike team, just could have been one of several platoons of guardsmen transported up to act as a distraction.

As for the "He definetly couldn't do this, he was just a normal human, and normal human's couldn't have done that" you're going to have to furnish proof, rather than assumptions that this was the case. Not every man faces certain death pissing his pants with fear. Some prefer to charge. After all, the olny real difference between the Space Marines abilites at resisting chaos is just a certain quantity of close-minded doctrine, sheer raw willpower, mental training or some combination of the three. Who is to say that this poor sod wasn't just a prenaturally stubborn son-of-a-bitch?


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

It sounds like an attempt to incorporate some kind of "normal" human quality into a duel between demi-gods, and a weak one at that. However, I've definitely heard the name before, even if it's been retconned out - he's more than just a saint, right? Isn't he *the patron* saint of the Imperial Guard? There's also a medal named after him, so while his role as the intermediary between Horus and the Emperor could be given to a Custodes, he still would've had to do something pretty damn heroic.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

It's been retconned, Collected Visions states it was a Custode, it being the newest version of that particular piece of fluff takes precedence.

For now my money is still on Custodian Amon, just a hunch, if he keeps getting more roles in future novels then it will keep my bet alive more.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> It's been retconned, Collected Visions states it was a Custode, it being the newest version of that particular piece of fluff takes precedence.


Just a note, but *technically* newer lore does not take precedence.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

My bet is on Amon Tauromachus as well, he is being lined up to have an important role, and even Magnus the Red stated there was something big comming for him. He will most likely be the one to do the final charge to sacrifice himself to make the Emperor see the truth of Horus's fall.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Just a note, but *technically* newer lore does not take precedence.


my god, youve got some neck on you after the ctan debate!!!!!!



anyway i personally like the merits of the human character saving the emperor, it adds quite a interesting and emotional angle from the emperors point of view.

but my theory is that it could turn out to be constantin valdor.

one reason is because we hear nothing about him after prospero and i know there is some conflicting evidence as to if he was on terra or not but if we go with him getting back to terra then we can work with my theory.

now we get down to the fact that you would have thought someone pretty significant would need to get killed to get the emperor to finally kill horus and a lone man doesnt seem to fit the bill really. 

now being as valdor might be one of the closets friends of the emperor we might take it after seeing sanguinius get killed then another key figure also getting it would sway his opinion.

but the one thing that seals it for me is that horus and valdor were known to have fought and that valdor bested him or it was a draw but whichever way you look at it the fact could remain that if valdor could be killed just by a glance when horus couldnt best him before it would surely compel the emperor to act seeing the power that horus could command at a whim. its probably the most logical answer as to why the emperor didnt act when he saw sanguinius dead.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Just a note, but *technically* newer lore does not take precedence.


True, but in the case of the Horus Heresy series, I would argue that Collected Visions takes precedence over ancient fluff like Pius for example, seeing as it is effectively the baseplate from which the series is going off.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> my god, youve got some neck on you after the ctan debate!!!!!!


Why? The C'tan debate revolved around whether the new lore could reconcile with the old, whether it made sense, and whether or not people liked it. It was nothing to do with the nature of 40k canon really. What I meant by my above comment was in regards to the unique nature of 40k _'canon'_.



Angel of Blood said:


> True, but in the case of the Horus Heresy series, I would argue that Collected Visions takes precedence over ancient fluff like Pius for example, seeing as it is effectively the baseplate from which the series is going off.


Yeah, I was just nitpicking. It's a bad habit of mine.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Stories change as they get retold again and again, getting embellished and made more dramatic. Sure it might have been a Custodian, but over ten thousand years the story had mutated to the dramatic idea of a mortal man defying the arch traitor in the heart of darkness, which sure would resonate well with the masses and further inspire them to sacrifice. Life in the imperium is sacrifice, sacrifice in the Emperor's name. It is certainly a story the ecclesiarchy would be keen to spread, even if its not actually the truth of what once happened onboard the Vengeful Spirit.

So i sincerely believe Ollanius Pius never have actually existed, but being invented by the imperium. A lie that have taken a life of its own and being accepted as common fact.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Brother Lucian said:


> Stories change as they get retold again and again, getting embellished and made more dramatic. Sure it might have been a Custodian, but over ten thousand years the story had mutated to the dramatic idea of a mortal man defying the arch traitor in the heart of darkness, which sure would resonate well with the masses and further inspire them to sacrifice. Life in the imperium is sacrifice, sacrifice in the Emperor's name. It is certainly a story the ecclesiarchy would be keen to spread, even if its not actually the truth of what once happened onboard the Vengeful Spirit.
> 
> So i sincerely believe Ollanius Pius never have actually existed, but being invented by the imperium. A lie that have taken a life of its own and being accepted as common fact.


That's an interesting theory. I kind of like that one.

But, being the guy that I am, I still prefer to root for the idea that he was nothing more than a mortal man. 

Having a badass from an orginization with a 33,333/1 Kill ratio rather than just some pitiful, poor shmuck strikes me as less interesting. But then I'm a Percival lover, I like weak, flawed heroes.

As for Pius, yes he is not just a saint, but the Patron Saint of the guard, in their aspect as protectors and defenders of all the Imperium cares about (If it's worth having, it's worth dying for and all that.)

As for why a lone man could inspire the emperor more, look at it from this point of veiw,

Your favorite son has decided to defy you and everything you stand for, you can scarecely belive this is happening, let alone that it might be unsolvable, you've gone up to try and talk him down, to parley, to maybe bring him to his knees and make him surrender, see reason and come back to you, perhaps it was all a bit misunderstanding?

Perhaps some outside force was manipulating Horus to do this, whatever it is you are confident that you can defeat it, you have before after all, you can't imagine that your favored son would be able to attack you personally (because after all, ordering someone to do something to hurt someone you care about is far far easier than doing it yourself) but then, after having come into the room, seeing Horus with his brother's body at his feet, you still think there might be a chance, to maybe, make him see reason.

Then, when he has you on the ropes, you're still feebly trying to deny that he would kill you, maybe in some important moment he'll have an attack of conscience and stop. But then, some guy you don't even know, some random stranger, whom you now see has wholly and totally dedicated himself to you, steps between you and him, telling Horus to stop, and Horus doesn't even pause. 

He kills the guy with a blow, some random bystander who literally gave his life for you when he had no real ties of loyalty to you, didn't know you at all personally, could have surrendered to Chaos right there and lived, ad he sacrifices himself trying to protect you, knowing he couldn't. Then at that point you realize, if that can't make Horus see reason, coupled with everything else, then there is no saving him. 

You kick his Chaos dedicated ass, and then start to die. And then it occurs to you you never even knew the name of the man who tried to save you.

That, in my opinion, was the Emperor's thought processes about Ollainus Pius. Basically, Ollanius Pius is the straw that broke the camel's back.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yeah, I was just nitpicking. It's a bad habit of mine.













A bad habit? Thats a paddlin...




I hope they keep Ollanius Pius rather than some custodes. It just makes humanity look more badass and gives the notion that humanity will do whatever it takes to survive.

There, I said my intelligent sentence of the month.


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## Kale Hellas (Aug 26, 2009)

ollanius pius all the way i preferred it and honestly anyone saying it doesn't make sense, do you not accept ork weapons fire because the ork thinks it should, and 8 foot tall men stroll around with machine guns that launch mini nucleur missiles. sense has no place in this game that's why its so great.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Kale Hellas said:


> ollanius pius all the way i preferred it and honestly anyone saying it doesn't make sense, do you not accept ork weapons fire because the ork thinks it should, and 8 foot tall men stroll around with machine guns that launch mini nucleur missiles. sense has no place in this game that's why its so great.


Damn straight.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

A regular human wouldnt survive the teleportation if Im not misstaken and on a daemon infested ship he would survive long either. My bet would be on a custodes as, but whose to say his name isnt Ollanius Pius?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

What reasoning do you have to suggest a human couldn't survive teleportation?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I say fuck the Custodian. The human tale sounds a lot more badass.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

forkmaster said:


> A regular human wouldnt survive the teleportation if Im not misstaken and on a daemon infested ship he would survive long either. My bet would be on a custodes as, but whose to say his name isnt Ollanius Pius?


I'm not an expert on 40k teleportation, but I'm pretty sure anyone can _survive _the process; the issue is whether they re-enter the Materium completely intact, or whether they re-enter at all. Whether human or Space Marine, it's wise to offer a quick, silent prayer to the Emperor for guidance before teleportation, because it's always a risky action.

Yes, even if it was a Custodian, he could be named Ollanius Pius, but I still think he was a human because the Guard - made up of regular men and women - consider Pius to be their patron saint. Unless that's been retconned out, too .


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Davidicus 40k said:


> I'm not an expert on 40k teleportation, but I'm pretty sure anyone can _survive _the process; the issue is whether they re-enter the Materium completely intact, or whether they re-enter at all. Whether human or Space Marine, it's wise to offer a quick, silent prayer to the Emperor for guidance before teleportation, because it's always a risky action.
> 
> Yes, even if it was a Custodian, he could be named Ollanius Pius, but I still think he was a human because the Guard - made up of regular men and women - consider Pius to be their patron saint. Unless that's been retconned out, too .


Nope that bit is still around (thanks to Fantasy Flight Games)

As for prayers to the Emperor, I always prefered this one. _"I shall not fear the Warp. It shall fear Me."_


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

And then _Know No Fear_ came out.... Spoilers below.



Olanius appears for the first time in modern fluff and within the Horus Heresy series in the afore mentioned novel. At first he is simply referred to as Oll, a retired soldier, a meeting with John Grammticus reveals him to actually be an immortal or Perpetual as it is called in the book, the Emperor himself may even be a Perpetual and it's unclear whether he is older or not. More pressingly he is then shown a vision in which he is stood in the throne room during the Siege of Terra, Horus infront of him with the slain Angel at his feet. His full name is revealed to be Ollanius 'Pious' Persson.

To say I was shocked at the revelation and re-introduction of Ollanius just doesn't quite say it.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

It does make you wonder how many more of that group were wandering about behind the scenes.



Ollanius we know was one of the Argonauts who adventured with Jason on the Argo, and later on was a french soldier in the Napoleonic Wars for example


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Baron Spikey said:


> It does make you wonder how many more of that group were wandering about behind the scenes.
> 
> 
> 
> Ollanius we know was one of the Argonauts who adventured with Jason on the Argo, and later on was a french soldier in the Napoleonic Wars for example


Crazy theory then;



Ollianius Pius, is also Saint Longinus, they share similarities in both story and anonymity.


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## CarnifexQt3 (Nov 28, 2011)

That would tie in wonderfully with the Emperor-as-Christ motif. I wonder what the Grail would be?


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

CarnifexQt3 said:


> That would tie in wonderfully with the Emperor-as-Christ motif. I wonder what the Grail would be?


The Primarchs obviously :biggrin: Holy Blood and all that?

Nah, I'm just kiddin.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

CarnifexQt3 said:


> That would tie in wonderfully with the Emperor-as-Christ motif. I wonder what the Grail would be?


A cup he drank from and now can't understand why people go ape shit over getting their hands on?


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Oh come on, even his armor is a holy relic, they'd go batshit over something that held his blood and or drank from at some point, imagine the presence in the Warp an item like that would hold.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> Oh come on, even his armor is a holy relic, they'd go batshit over something that held his blood and or drank from at some point, imagine the presence in the Warp an item like that would hold.


I imagine there are a lot of vessels he drank from in Imperial possession- why would they be overly concerned with what was likely a small clay cup he sipped from dozens of thousands of years ago?


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Baron Spikey said:


> I imagine there are a lot of vessels he drank from in Imperial possession- why would they be overly concerned with what was likely a small clay cup he sipped from dozens of thousands of years ago?


Well the fact it's dozens of thousands of years old is a good indication right there.


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## Kale Hellas (Aug 26, 2009)

fuck grenades i have a mug the emperor drank from


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Here's a question...

From "Know No Fear":
"He hasn’t smoked in a long time, but several older versions of him did."

Are Perpetuals reincarnated, then, rather than living for extremely long periods of time?

Is the Emperor a Perpetual? If so, does that correlate with the Emperor's fate? Are we wrong for assuming the Emperor has been going through a single lifespan? Could it be that the Emperor, like Ollanius, has lived and died hundreds of times, and that his death would lead to an inevitable reincarnation?


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## Kale Hellas (Aug 26, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Here's a question...
> 
> From "Know No Fear":
> "He hasn’t smoked in a long time, but several older versions of him did."
> ...


would then mean they are keeping him on the golden throne to 1 keep demons away and two retain power.
it'd be what a century before he resurfaces by then everywhere would of been in disrepair and he'd have to do it all over again


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

If they even know he would reincarnate when he dies.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> If they even know he would reincarnate when he dies.


Well there have been tons of Prophecies that say he will (see the Sensei, Starchild, Sensei-Emperor, Carrion Lord, Chaos God of Order and several other theories)

The fact is, he is simply far to strong of a warp presence to fade out without SOMEONE noticing. Besides, if he's alive then he's what's holding Chaos off the Imperium, and they're doing fairly well for themselves all things considered. If he's dead then the Imperium doesn't need him to fight off Chaos, which says a lot of bad things about the Chaos Legions.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Phoebus said:


> Here's a question...
> 
> From "Know No Fear":
> "He hasn’t smoked in a long time, but several older versions of him did."
> ...


Maybe he just means that for a certain period of time he concocts an identity, and that that identity was maybe a smoker- heck for all we know he was an avid user of LSD in the persona he inhabited during the 60's :laugh:



Nicholas Hadrian said:


> Well there have been tons of Prophecies that say he will (see the Sensei, Starchild, Sensei-Emperor, Carrion Lord, Chaos God of Order and several other theories)


Don't confuse theories, especially ones that have been endowed with greater importance by fan fiction, with prophecies- very different beasts.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

It will be interesting to see how much more BL will reveal. 

I haven't read this book yet but it sounds as though the series is getting interesting again.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> The Primarchs obviously :biggrin: Holy Blood and all that?
> 
> Nah, I'm just kiddin.


Look at the blood angels, worshipping the holy blood. Having a Red Grail.


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## Smokes (Nov 27, 2009)

Obviously the Inquisition couldn't allow the sheer badass and balls of Pius to go unchecked so they suppressed everything about him. Or simply the absolute level of badassery that was achieved in that moment of utter ball exploding defiance caused Pius to evaporate into thin air before Horus could even kill him and now his soul is within the Emperor's soul in some kind of no-**** man to Emperor respect kind of way. In the end all the Astartes fan-boys here can't stand the fact that Pius is so well-endowed that his manhood simply can't be contained in Astartes or Tactical Dreadnaught armor for that matter.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Is the Emperor's armour a relic? I thought they smashed it up and used it to give Terminators 5+ Invulnerables.

Midnight


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

The homoerotic imagery aside I agree. First let's take Oll out of the category of a "normal man." No normal man is thousands of years old. He's fought in countless wars and has knowledge and experiance most soldiers would kill for even a fraction of. The truth is before you had astartes guys like Theseus,Jason,Peleus,Ialous,Hector,and a littany of other "normal" men were challengin Gods and Monsters with no genetic augmentation. I know the thought of super warriors is appealing but let's not underestimate the human ability to overcome.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> Is the Emperor's armour a relic? I thought they smashed it up and used it to give Terminators 5+ Invulnerables.
> 
> Midnight


That's exactly why it IS a relic, every single crux terminatus containing a shard of the Emperor's armor is a holy relic every chapter would rather sacrifice a company than lose.


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## Sleepy Dragon (Feb 9, 2012)

The original story of Ollanius Pius always annoyed me. It was obviously written to bring normal man into a story of gods. I always took it as being propaganda.



But now he's been brought back as someone who sees the emperor as a peer (not a god) he fits a little easier into the final scenario.


I still get annoyed by the idea that after ripping his fathers empire asunder, killing or ordering the deaths of his brother primarchs and pledging his soul to chaos , the Emp still says to himself "what a minute Horus was just throwing a hissy and will say sorry after a cuppa and a digestive biscuit"


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> The homoerotic imagery aside I agree. First let's take Oll out of the category of a "normal man." No normal man is thousands of years old. He's fought in countless wars and has knowledge and experiance most soldiers would kill for even a fraction of. The truth is before you had astartes guys like Theseus,Jason,Peleus,Ialous,Hector,and a littany of other "normal" men were challengin Gods and Monsters with no genetic augmentation. I know the thought of super warriors is appealing but let's not underestimate the human ability to overcome.


Well, Oll is as about as far from "human" as Astartes, if not more


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

One can wonder if Oll was protected by chaos, to be their hidden trump card to ensure the Emperor snapped out of his funk and beat the stuffing out of Horus, before expiring and ensuring that the bloody stalemate and endless chaos of the 41th millenium would come to be, with its unending harvest of emotions to grow rich and fat on as believers and unbelievers slaughters each other to the laughter of thirsting gods.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> and later on was a french soldier in the Napoleonic Wars for example


Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the trench warfare of Verdun referenced - meaning the First World War rather than the Napoleonic Wars?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the trench warfare of Verdun referenced - meaning the First World War rather than the Napoleonic Wars?


That's what I thought until he mentioned Austerlitz. Turns out both Verdun and Austerlitz were famous battles during the Wars of Coalition (First and Third respectively) in the late 18th and early 19th century- commonly referred to as the Napoleonic Wars. 

In Verdun French forces fought a Prussian army, and in Austerlitz they fought a Russo-Austrian army- suggesting to me at least that if he was present at both sites it would seem he was fighting for the French.


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## Guardsmen Maggot (Feb 14, 2012)

I always liked the story of Ollanius Pius where a simple mortal man defies the second most powerful Demi-God in the galaxy. For a man he has never met, without a hope of winning. That level of defiance is a very human quality that has inspired people to do great things in the real world and sums up the attitude of the Imperium in 40k.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Once again, that normal man quality doesn't really apply to a 30,000 yr old immortal warrior/soldier/adventurer. The original fluff made it seem like that. Oll now is something like the Highlander. He may not have the abilities of the Emperor but he's waaaaaaay above any mundane human soldier in age,experiance,ability,and know how. He predates the Imperium,primarchs,astartes,possibly Malcador (though I'm beginning to think he's a perpetual as well),and the concepts of most modern day weapons. He learned to shoot when blackpowder and bayonets were in use. A guy like that is proficient in any and all edged weapons,projectile weapons,as well as technology and equipment. It's not fair to regular humans to hold someone like him as an example as he's the equivalent of a post-human without the genetic modification.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Can I just say that I think making Ollanius a meta-human being was the worst possible way GW could have gone with this (assuming he's still the guy who dies). By making him more than human we remove all the things about the original story that make it so compelling. The idea of one man, one decision, making a difference in a battle of gods; of true selfless sacrifice for nothing more than your faith; of real, human courage; these things depend on Ollanius being a regular dude. By making him a Custode or a Space Marine the story becomes one more of selfless duty, something which I feel is present in a lot of the HH novels as is but is still a compelling idea. By making him a 'perpetual' they take away the selfless sacrifice (cause he's not really going to die) and the courage (for the same reason) without, in my opinion, giving him any other powerful drive. Now its just a story about an immortal dude who takes a bullet for another immortal dude, which frankly isn't that appealing.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

I can agree with that. Really the new writers are fundamentally misunderstanding why people like Ollianus Pius as mcuh as we do.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Why are you judging this before it has even panned out? 

For all you know Horus will have the power to do more than simply kill the man. Maybe he will have the means to erase his soul permanently. 

That being the case, I can imagine the Emperor being quite upset in much the same way. 


Also bear in mind that the focus here is that it was Ollanius' death that caused the Emperor's reaction. Horus need not have known the man's true nature and it would be just as big a revelation of his character as far as the Emperor would see.


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## Wydnej (Feb 19, 2010)

I think it may work even better having Ollius as a perpetual.

Here's why. You mention him being like Highlander, a very good analogy... however lets look at it from another point of view.

A man who can live forever, who has decided to live himself a quiet fulfilling life, goes on an Odyssey as a last favour to an old friend, he knows not how it will end (although he has a glimpse of the evil he will face) and goes willingly to face it. We don't know if he knows it will be the end of him, but if he does know that Horus has the capacity to 'end' him... isn't it all the more tragic that he goes forth?

By his own words he holds the emperor as a peer rather than as a figurehead, and yet maybe at the last he see's the nobleness of the Emperors dream and of his desire to redeem his son and decides that humanity is worth fighting for. That if he can just show the Emperor that there is no redemption for his favoured son, that he can force him into that decisive action to save humanity... And he steps forth and puts himself between a mad demi god and a being he has new found respect for... and ends his eternal life...

*pass the kleenex - feel the goosebumps bitches!*

Wyddy


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## Delta7 (Nov 22, 2007)

> Can I just say that I think making Ollanius a meta-human being was the worst possible way GW could have gone with this (assuming he's still the guy who dies). By making him more than human we remove all the things about the original story that make it so compelling...


Interesting, my personal opinion is the ideal that, like John Grammaticus, Oll Persson is a human - genetically - and like John Grammaticus the intervention of the Cabal made him immortal, given the "long view" in order to server their new employers...

Within "Legion" John Grammaticus refers to himself as having died a few times as well as remembering former lives.

Personally I loved the emergence of Oll in "Know No Fear"...the intrigue of "Perpetuals"...although I understand from John Grammicus reminiscing about meeting the Emperor that he is not like John...

Meh...bring on the next book, more discussions : )

Cheers,


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Delta7 said:


> Interesting, my personal opinion is the ideal that, like John Grammaticus, Oll Persson is a human - genetically - and like John Grammaticus the intervention of the Cabal made him immortal, given the "long view" in order to server their new employers


I don't think the immortality of the Perpetuals has anything to do with Cabal "intervention" 
They seem to be an entirely separate faction


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Correct. Grammaticus and his afifliliation with the Cabal has nothing to do with his immortality. If you remember in Legion he says he met the Emperor during the Unification Wars centuries to millenia ago. The Emperor recognizes him as a fellow immortal and offers to talk with him because of the "special" things people like them can do or something along those lines. I believe the Emperor's bloody crusade against the xenos is maybe what turned him off from the Imperial path and then becoming aware of how the Imperium was directly now empowering Chaos. The aliens don't make perpetuals. They just are from what we've been told. 

I belive Oll being one makes things interesting as his story has been given a new dimension other than intervening in this conflict out of a blind loyalty to his Emperor. Maybe there are things he knows or doesn't in his 30k yrs that may lead to deeper revelations over the state of the universe and possibly give us a clue to the Terminus Decree.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

The Terminus decree? How did that get in here? I put a keep out sign at the door to the thread. 

But seriously, what makes you think the Terminus decree will factor into Oll's story?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

We don't know how many perpetuals there are. But given that they seem able to reincarnate without being consumed by daemons or Chaos powers, there must be more to them than just a recurring soul. 

Who knows, this could even lead to a throwback to the old Illuminati fluff. Though considering I haven't read the book yet I may be making incorrect assumptions.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Hm... who else did we know who could re-incarnate?

Shamans, of whom 2000 commited suicide to form the Emperor... Thoughts?

Also, it occured to me, Sebastian Thor is posited as a possible re-incarnation of the Emperor in some writings concerning him.

Is it possible he might just be the re-incarnation of Ollianus Pius?

Thoughts?


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

The suicide fluff is apparently out the window. I'm sure they weren't referring to the shamans when they talked about the perpetuals. I mentioned the terminus decree because in the last novel the Emperor will supposedly give instructions on what to do as he's dying along with maybe Malcador before he ascends the throne. Who knows we might get lucky.I can't think,unless it's a Codex, where else we would find out what it is. Things like the decree seem to be the type of secrets getting unlocked in this series. It was a guess.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

One of the things I now find most interesting about Oll is just what god or religion he follows...


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Very true I'll say it does tweak the curiosity. What would a 30k yr old warrior witness or feel that he would be inspired to be relgiously devoted too?


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Finally I could join this thread after finishing the book.  Yes he does mention a/the God sometimes, but we don't know which he refers to. I doubt it is Chaos at least. And I got the hint as well, Emperor isn't alone being like he is, only that he might be the strongest and with the biggest goals to achieve.


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## thebinman (Jun 18, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> That's what I thought until he mentioned Austerlitz. Turns out both Verdun and Austerlitz were famous battles during the Wars of Coalition (First and Third respectively) in the late 18th and early 19th century- commonly referred to as the Napoleonic Wars.
> 
> In Verdun French forces fought a Prussian army, and in Austerlitz they fought a Russo-Austrian army- suggesting to me at least that if he was present at both sites it would seem he was fighting for the French.


The Verdun battle referenced was the world war one cataclysmic clash between the French and Germany, designed to bleed France dry. He was talking about the mud and WW1 bayonets before IMHO.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

thebinman said:


> The Verdun battle referenced was the world war one cataclysmic clash between the French and Germany, designed to bleed France dry. He was talking about the mud and WW1 bayonets before IMHO.


I suppose that would make the most sense, but he was definitely referencing fighting in the Napoleonic Wars when he talked about Austerlitz.


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