# New edition please.



## quachill (Apr 29, 2009)

Well I don't know about other gaming clubs but mine has become a wall of vehicles. Every one just puts everything they can in vehicles and gets in your face. 
That coupled with the annoying sweeping advance rule where one guy can run down a 30 man unit and I say we got problems. 

The over powered codexs cant be fixed but with a new addition I would like to see vehicles become more dangerous for there passengers if the explode. Maybe no armor save just a straight wound check.

Modify or get rid of the sweeping advance rule. I know its there to speed up the game but seeing one model wipe out 30 is just ridiculous. 

Complaining done, going up to have my nids get ran over by the wall of rhinos and land raiders. :blackeye:


----------



## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Your nids have trouble with walls of armor? Odd, with all the MCs, Rending, and high STR assaults, I thought you'd enjoy crunchy shells with chewey centers!


----------



## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

I'm not a massive fan of mech myself - or sweeping advance either - but 5th still has legs.

6th will probably hit maybe 2012 or 2013 which would seem about right.

If you really don't like mech, try adding more terrain to the feild. Tanks become less appealing if they can't squeeze between rubble and get immobalised too often by dangerous terrain.


----------



## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

quachill said:


> Complaining done, going up to have my nids get ran over by the wall of rhinos and land raiders. :blackeye:


And thats why you are complaining. Nids are rahter new so there codex was built in mind wiht 5th gen. Also it semes funny to me that the person complaing aobut lots of tanks and lone modals beatting down the horde is very ironic(if thats the write word) from a player who has NO tanks and attakcs with the horde.

We need new codexs for Necrons, Dark Eldar, Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters before we even think about a new rule book. Also it only came out a while ago and just becuase your army might be struggling you want to re-write the rule book. the main thing you do is build a new list to combat these problems. You can get sweepign advanced if your fearless so Synapse and get some Zaonthropes and monsters.


----------



## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

I doubt you'll get much sympathy, I find the attitude from allot of players since 5th has changed to something quite disgusting "if your not playing mech your a worthless piece of crap and you don't deserve to play this game" and then continuing to belittle, mock and insult you for as long as they possibly can due to there god complex.


----------



## Calamari (Feb 13, 2009)

Cool your boots, the rule book isn't you're problem, it's you're local meta game, you can't cry out for the nerd stick because of it. What you do is adapt and counter thier list. Facing rhinos and chimeras? Load up on Hive Guard, got Land Raider trouble? Get some Zoanthropes on the go. 40k is a very Darwinian game so all you can do is adapt and counter in a cycle that keeps the game fresh. I've played since 3rd and I think this is the best edition yet.

As for mech, sure it's normally the most efficient option but it's not the only one. I've played against foot slogging CSM before and that was a challenge, there were so many marines...


----------



## quachill (Apr 29, 2009)

Can I crack armor? Certainly. Do I want to make every one of my lists with 30%-50% armour cracking units? NO! I would like to build fun versatile lists. In my local store the wall of armor dictates almost half my list design. That didn't use to be the case. I'm tired of fighting a ton of mech. 

It basically comes down to if, I want to have half a chance of winning I have almost 50% of my list forced upon me because of the prevalence of mech lists. 
I only dedicated 25% to 33% of my list to armour cracking in the past. This gave me alot of flexibility in list building. Meh I've been playing this game for years and I skipped 4ed entirely so I guess if Mech just stays out of hand in my area I can break for another edition. It just sucks, I like my codex its versatile, I just don't have any opponents who aren't hard core power gamers.

ok off to play may get some arbys or something. Green elf needs food badly!!


----------



## Don_Keyballs (Jan 14, 2010)

Play some where else... simple as that. If you want opponents who aren't all in mech... find new opponents. You say that you don't have the versatility to build the lists you want... to be frank... you can build any list you want... If you want to win 90% of the time... then you have to build a list to counter your opponents. Complaining that you hate building lists so you can win is like Complaining that the cheery on top of your ice cream is too sweet.


----------



## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Pretty much, sounds like you've just got a suck gaming group. If every playr has to rely on mechs to do anything on teh battlefeild, they can't be that good of players or are just a bunch of immature 'more power' types in it for winning rather then fun.


----------



## Holmstrom (Dec 3, 2008)

It does seem strange that a vehicle could explode in a massive fireball, yet every passenger can potentially escape to safety without a scratch. But I digress.

Why don't you speak to the players themselves and ask them if they wish to run a less mechanized list for a change? The problem, as pointed out previously even by yourself, is the type of players you are dealing with. Try suggesting events at your local gaming that cater to your interests. Get creative if it's such a problem, but given the nature of Warhammer you really should be using a big portion of your list to counter your opponents anyway.


----------



## Calamari (Feb 13, 2009)

quachill said:


> Can I crack armor? Certainly. Do I want to make every one of my lists with 30%-50% armour cracking units? NO! I would like to build fun versatile lists. In my local store the wall of armor dictates almost half my list design. That didn't use to be the case. I'm tired of fighting a ton of mech.
> 
> It basically comes down to if, I want to have half a chance of winning I have almost 50% of my list forced upon me because of the prevalence of mech lists.
> I only dedicated 25% to 33% of my list to armour cracking in the past. This gave me alot of flexibility in list building. Meh I've been playing this game for years and I skipped 4ed entirely so I guess if Mech just stays out of hand in my area I can break for another edition. It just sucks, I like my codex its versatile, I just don't have any opponents who aren't hard core power gamers.
> ...


yes you do have a versatile codex and you should use that to your advantage. The situation calls for you to pop tanks and you are able to do that, do it enough and you'll make mech unviable and force them to rethink their list, that's the metagame of 40k and if you've been playing as long as you say you have you would know it. Besides you can't complain about something that's well within your power to change.

I'm not trying to sound harsh, I'm actualy very sympathetic, for months I got rolled by mech eldar players. I didn't sit their and complain about it. Instead over the course of about a year I tweaked changed and tinkred with my army untill I forced them to change and so the cycle will start again.

Ultimatley it's down to you wether you skip this edition, I hope you don't though because in that time you could be the one dictating your opponents army composition.


----------



## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

Balanced lists can be made with mech and against mech. Saying the strength of mech in 5th edition is limiting versatility is...well not right. It took a long time for the general community to understand how good transports and mech in general is (see how long it took for Daemons/Orks/Lash-Chaos to stop being called competitive [even though some people still claim they are]) but there are a lot of lists which aren't all tanks which work very well.

Hybrid IG, Hybrid Tau, Vanilla Bikers, Jumper BA (inc. Bloodwing), Loganwing Missiles, TWC SW, Blood Rodeo, Tyranids in any form, etc. Out of my armies 1/3 are fully mech, 1/3 are hybrids and 1/3 have 0 tanks and all are very competitive and good lists.


----------



## Calamari (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm sorry kirby, WTF is a blood rodeo?


----------



## Raptors8th (Jul 3, 2009)

This is a Blood rodeo. It's one of Kirby's inventions and basically involves using bikers to give assault marines mobile cover. And as to the topic at hand, mech is what fifth brought, and I'd say it's a good thing. It makes the tactics much more interesting, and adds in a factor outside of luck that can completely change the game. Which is nice.


----------



## quachill (Apr 29, 2009)

Guess I just needed a good whine. Won a game, lost a game had fun in both. 
I am still wishing for the good old 3rd ed days though. Out of 2nd 3rd and 5th I have the most love for 3rd. 

My memory may be rose colored but it seemed like 3rd ed was better balance than 5th or maybe the skill level of my opponents kept it all balanced. 
Back to list building and winged tyrant converting.


----------



## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

I'm wondering what TWC SW is, havn't given much thoughts to the wolves but I'm starting to.

As far as the main point of the thread goes, if you run a few games with mech smashing lists you'll find that most players will change their lists to something else. If you wanna win against people when you know what they're playing don't play a list that they're good against. Play a list to smash the hell out of their transports and kill them all.


----------



## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

@calamari; What Raptors8th said.

@Wusword77; SW TWC is essentially a foot SW list using thunderwolf calvary (inc. Iron Priests & Wolf Lords), long fangs, fenrisian wolves and grey hunters. tailoring is never good, you can run a balanced list which can handle mech, MC, bikes and hordes without having to tailor. Classic example I always use is I brought my Mech SM to the table a lot against a mate. After a few games against his sisters he brought so many meltaguns it was ridiculus (but in odd spots, like 4x mguns on Dominions). Brought Mechdar & later Nids and there were a lot more problems because of his lack of anti-horde. You can build balanced lists which don't need to be changed and this is what tournament lists are about.


----------



## CLT40k (Jun 18, 2010)

Stella - Wow, so am I guessing that you're one of these guys who goes up the the shop... loses a game or two because you don't know how to make a list... and then blames your failure to adapt on _WAAC Players who are only playing lots of mech to win_ - Are you serious? If you're belittled, mocked and insulted (to use your words) it probably has very little to do with any kind of God complex, but more likely do to making statements like the one above. Seriously... being competative does not mean not having fun.... And, what if I really like tanks... why are you crapping on my dreams and imagination. I sometimes miss my days in the USMC (I drove a tank) and playing 40K with all my little tanks is a BIG part of why I like the game... Not just because I think winning is cool too..... 

Quachill - Versitile means - competent in many areas and able to turn with ease from one thing to another. So wouldn't being able to handle mech fit into this category as well. Honestly mate, what sort of list do you want to run? Case in point, when the Zoe's show up and start mind zapping my stuff... I cringe, and my buddy smiles... that's the game... it's about conflict.... 

Grizbe - I'd like to address a few things in your post... but I have no words to describe your lack of understanding here. You just don't seem to "get" what the game is about. 

For Gizbe and Stella - You are pretty much asking your opponents to play with bad lists so that you feel better about your own bad choices in the FoC... Why not ask them to only play with 1500 points while you play with 2000? That would let you be more versitile right? 

On competition - If you have a really crappy list.... I'm not going to want to play you. There won't be competition. In truth, I'd like everyone to have the best list they can bring... then when we match it against mine, the game is about tactical skill and luck with the dice. There really isn't much fun in clubbing a baby seal. I think I'm pretty competative and that means I would rather your list isn't sucky so that we can have a fair and matched game. I get nothing for beating up subpar players/lists.

The kicked dog routine is getting old. The senarios we play are designed to determine a winner (except the autotie mission) We agree on points to play so is it really MY fault for taking a list I think is good? How bad does my list have to suck to make you feel good?


----------



## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

i can say it i have NOT fallen to the "Mecha wave" as my 4 armys are;
Eldar - Foot slogging and only War walker, no tanks
Space Marines - ton of Drop pods and a few Dreadnoughts so again no tanks.
Tyranids - They have no tanks
Blood angles - only a 1000pts Raider list and thats only becuase i love Raiders.


----------



## CLT40k (Jun 18, 2010)

Wusword... It's the story about the old bull and the young bull....
Young bull - Lets run down there and have us one of those cows...
Old Bull - Nah son, lets walk down there and have them all....

I don't think list tailoring is going to make you better... But if you design a really tough all comers list... then you'll play well against all diff types of armies. Some you'll just flat out own.. and some you'll struggle with.. but you'll have a shot at eveyone across the board.


----------



## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

CLT40k said:


> Stella - Wow, so am I guessing that you're one of these guys who goes up the the shop...


which shop?, if your referring to an GW I dont play in them because there all full of wankers and WAAC players who do actually all happen to play mech (along with cheating like its going outta fashion)


CLT40k said:


> And, what if I really like tanks... why are you crapping on my dreams and imagination.


then do a tank army, mechanized has a focus on transports, not tanks.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

You forgot the inevitable smell of unwashed male that fills every orifice of the store.


----------



## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> You forgot the inevitable smell of unwashed male that fills every orifice of the store.


oh of course and that, I can't stand walking into them these days if I need to get a pot of paint or summit, having to hold your breath as some staff member treats you like a 5yr old (without the molestation) and tries to sell you SPESS MAHREENS when all you want is devlan mud and to piss off so you can breath.


----------



## Calamari (Feb 13, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> which shop?, if your referring to an GW I dont play in them because there all full of wankers and WAAC players who do actually all happen to play mech (along with cheating like its going outta fashion)
> 
> then do a tank army, mechanized has a focus on transports, not tanks.





ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> You forgot the inevitable smell of unwashed male that fills every orifice of the store.



Well screw you guys, I play in a gw, it's a great place to hang out, I'm almost garunteed a game, I don't have to pay to play, I wash more than once a week and never, ever cheat and I can vouch for pretty much everyone there which includes a few heretics. Don't go making generalisations.

Back on topic, quachill, don't get mad at mech, get even


----------



## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Pretty obvious CLT40k is a clueless troll when they've only made 3 posts and they're all on here... . You obvious don't get the game is about having fun... not being an obnoxious jackass which you clearly seem to be.

The point I was making is if you have to rely on mechs to win the game for you, your clearly not very good at it and only care about 'power' rather then tactics and being adapatable to cope with different missions.


----------



## jasonfly (Feb 1, 2009)

Let me try to get this straight: this argument is all about something that is meant to be fun and entertaining? this is over some toy soldiers? 

Im cool with people having their own opinions (in fact I recommend them to) but dont share them if it will just cause an argument and bad feelings between people.

There is nothing wrong with mech. Sure its powerful, but playing against strong lists makes you a better player. 

This is a hobby, something you do for entertainment, not something to argue over.I like playing against strong lists, makes me a better player and i might learn some new tactics along the way. I really dont see why people are trying to label each other as whiny bitches in this thread, its a game.


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> I doubt you'll get much sympathy, I find the attitude from allot of players since 5th has changed to something quite disgusting "if your not playing mech your a worthless piece of crap and you don't deserve to play this game" and then continuing to belittle, mock and insult you for as long as they possibly can due to there god complex.


100% correct.

Also, telling Stella hes a shitty player (blunt summary of CLT40K's post) is like telling a Bloodcrusher its pink.

Regarding the OP's problem, I'd seriously consider finding either a new club or new players who aren't dicks. Or you could go for maximum competitiveness, fuck up their lists like its no problem then watch them cry and rage, and roast a delicious barbeQQ on the fires of their impotent fury. But thats just me being a vengeful player. 

EDIT: oh and also what jasonfly said. Wise post indeed.


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I had the same problem with my CSM for years, since almost everyone in my gaming center played either hybrid or solid mech. However instead of completely changing up my list I just fitted a melta gun on all mobile squads, and used my hovoc/artilerry with more AT weapons. I know nids lack the versatility to simply jam a extra 8 models into a list and instantly have AT capability, but with good all rounders like genestealers and MC's you should be able to do ok without refitting your lists. Also try forcing people to emergency disembark by surrounding the vehicle exits with stuff like gaunts when your bigger stuff assaults (Trust me mech players hate the idea of having to sit pinned for a turn surrounded by CC units)..


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> oh of course and that, I can't stand walking into them these days if I need to get a pot of paint or summit, having to hold your breath as some staff member treats you like a 5yr old (without the molestation) and tries to sell you SPESS MAHREENS when all you want is devlan mud and to piss off so you can breath.


Which is your local GW so I know not to game there? GW Stoke is a nice place to game though you get your usual bunch of dicks like in any social situation, I'd like to say the same for GW Crewe but I've only been in there twice.


----------



## Lord Rahl (Mar 13, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> oh of course and that, I can't stand walking into them these days if I need to get a pot of paint or summit, having to hold your breath as some staff member treats you like a 5yr old (without the molestation) and tries to sell you SPESS MAHREENS when all you want is devlan mud and to piss off so you can breath.


PMSL this sooooooo true about most GWs +rep, on the subject of the post, the OP needs to stop complaining and just go with the flow after all its a f***ing GAME not a life or death situation, just get on with it and play the best you can, and have some fun, losing can be fun you know.


----------



## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

The OP isn't treating it like a life or death situation. Just frustrated. I am sure we all know how that is.

No need for that treatment. The OP is just a gamer that cares about his hobby and having fun.

The next person that says "it is just a game" needs to pause and reflect. If it were just that, there is no way we would pay as much as we do "just for a game." If I didn't care, I sure as hell would be spending my money on something else.


----------



## comrade (Jun 30, 2008)

-Shrugs- 

I have no need for tanks, nor do I have to worry about them

I have enough Imperial Guardsmen on foot with enough special and Heavy weapons to field an all foot army up to 3000pts. 

And I love it when the opponent starts the games with a "Oh, no tanks? This should be easy"

Finished with a 

"You were cheating, there is no way you could field that many troops with that many heavy weapons."

oh... just Glorious. 

The more you spend on Transports and vehicles, the less you can spend out-fitting your infantry.


----------



## CLT40k (Jun 18, 2010)

So Grizbe... You're saying that the mark of a "powerbuild" is the Rhino? And if you HAVE to take a rhino, then you're clearly not a good player and you only care about "power" rather than fun..... Thats just crazy talk.... just crazy talk. 

I think we can all agree that the game is about having fun. And what I hear you saying is that my way to have fun with the game is wrong because I think it's fun to compete with my friends and actually care about the result of the game. (caring makes it more fun) That's the way people have fun in pretty much all organized sports. There is a goal, we compete for it, at the end you shake hands. Please help me understand how being competative is wrong cause I think you're just sounding whiny?

Nobody likes to play an obnoxious jackass... A douche with a competative list and a douche with a bad list is still no fun to play. But not because of thier list... but because they're a douche...


----------



## CLT40k (Jun 18, 2010)

Hey Comrad, what if the game is followed up with a "Hey man, good game... Those infantry sure are a tough fight for my Rhino powerbuild..."

What if your opponent dosen't accuse you of cheating... still havin a good time?

There are lots of builds that don't rely on Mech... Kirby mentioned a few. But at the same time, there are a lot of good builds that do rely on mech... 

If sombody called you a cheater cause they got beat. Or that they made fun of your list before you played. Those are the actions of a tool... but are unrelated to their models...


----------



## Raptors8th (Jul 3, 2009)

A lot of these replies are reminding me of the good ol' BoLS article a while back that complained about competitive players and how they "enjoy smashing a noobs list and rubbing it in there face." They don't. Quite frankly, it's boring as fuck when I'm playing a balanced well though out list and someone else is playing a poorly written list that can't handle it. Stomping all over someone and tabling them is _not what I want to happen_. It's boring, and leaves me feeling unsatisfied and them feeling like a looser and accusing me of "power-gaming" for having a decent list that can take all comers. I'd much rather lose to someone who's actually playing a good list because then at least it's close and I've had to try. If you don't want to have to put up with people using Rhinos then _don't go to a place where people use Rhinos_(good luck finding one)_!_ If you have a local group where the standard is to never work towards having a good list then that's fine, but don't expect it to be like that when you go somewhere else. When you're at someones place, you play by their standards, so if you don't like their standards then don't go their, but stop whining about it.


----------



## Chaos_smurf (Oct 14, 2009)

so what ive gotten from this is..you dont like mech armies and while you have the ability to counter this you dont want to....best way to describe this is taking a lasgun to a bolter fight


----------



## bishop5 (Jan 28, 2008)

As an imperial guard player, I have a god-given right to use as many damn tanks as I can fit into my army - 50-odd point chimeras? Mmmm... tasty.

Having said that, you could just, you know... make your own scenario that doesn't involve tanks, or agree to play with 25% more terrain...?


----------



## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Kirby said:


> @Wusword77; SW TWC is essentially a foot SW list using thunderwolf calvary (inc. Iron Priests & Wolf Lords), long fangs, fenrisian wolves and grey hunters. tailoring is never good, you can run a balanced list which can handle mech, MC, bikes and hordes without having to tailor. Classic example I always use is I brought my Mech SM to the table a lot against a mate. After a few games against his sisters he brought so many meltaguns it was ridiculus (but in odd spots, like 4x mguns on Dominions). Brought Mechdar & later Nids and there were a lot more problems because of his lack of anti-horde. You can build balanced lists which don't need to be changed and this is what tournament lists are about.


Kriby, thanks for explaining the TWC SW list, though it never dawned on me for Thunderwolf Calvary (I wish we had a face palm smiley for this)



CLT40k said:


> Wusword... It's the story about the old bull and the young bull....
> Young bull - Lets run down there and have us one of those cows...
> Old Bull - Nah son, lets walk down there and have them all....
> 
> I don't think list tailoring is going to make you better... But if you design a really tough all comers list... then you'll play well against all diff types of armies. Some you'll just flat out own.. and some you'll struggle with.. but you'll have a shot at eveyone across the board.


Regards to the "tailoring" of the list it's something he can do to offset his issue of mech problems. I agree that fully taloring your list is never a good idea, but if everyone is playing mech adding a little more anti-mech isn't really a bad thing. If he's runing 33% of his list as anti tank (thats a lot in my opinion but whatever) and is still having trouble I'd run 40%.

Lists don't make you a better player it's your skill on the table that determins that, but a good general uses all his resources to win, not just what he wants to use.


----------



## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> which shop?, if your referring to an GW I dont play in them because there all full of wankers and WAAC players who do actually all happen to play mech (along with cheating like its going outta fashion)
> 
> then do a tank army, mechanized has a focus on transports, not tanks.


Two things here: 1) which shop would this be? I seriously hope that's an exaggeration (from the looks of most of your past posts, it probably is). 

And 2) Oh, so now we're distinguishing between tanks and transports are we? I seem to recall you argued something along the lines of "A Razorback with a Twin-Linked Lascannon is a Tank because it has a big gun." Yes, I believe that was it, whereas I actually looked at the book and noticed that a Razorback is a Transport regardless of weapon choice.



Stella Cadente said:


> oh of course and that, I can't stand walking into them these days if I need to get a pot of paint or summit, having to hold your breath as some staff member treats you like a 5yr old (without the molestation) and tries to sell you SPESS MAHREENS when all you want is devlan mud and to piss off so you can breath.


You see Stella, I am a 14 year old boy. Despite my relatively young age I still manage to have intelligent conversations with the staff at my GW, and do you know why? Because I'm actually friendly. I don't walk in, insult everyone based on their choice of list, walk up to a store manager and say "I wanna buy this." like I own the place. 

I walk in, I go to what I want to buy (saying hi to people on the way), pick it up, take it to the counter, the bloke says "Is that all? Would you like some glue or something?" I say "No thanks, I have glue.", he sells the product to me, and I walk out of the store. There is no "Buy [insert generic product here]!" The most I ever get of that is when I actually ask for it, and then they just give helpful advice. It's just a friendly conversation between two people who actually show some respect.

You may say: "Well that's just your store!" But it's not "just my store". As you can see from other people in this thread plenty of stores are actually friendly as long as you don't take the attitude of "Strangers are evil and you should never, ever, ever make friends."

So next time Stella, be nice. Say "Hello". Watch a game and interject with your opinion now and then. Don't just barge in and think you know everything about everyone, because quite often Stella (as I myself have learned in the past on numerous occasions) you don't.

One last note: I bathe quite regularly. I usually smell quite alright. When I walk into a GW store... I smell nothing different to anywhere else. It smells perfectly fine. I really don't know what you're on about.


----------



## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Cato Sicarius said:


> And 2) Oh, so now we're distinguishing between tanks and transports are we? I seem to recall you argued something along the lines of "A Razorback with a Twin-Linked Lascannon is a Tank because it has a big gun." Yes, I believe that was it, whereas I actually looked at the book and noticed that a Razorback is a Transport regardless of weapon choice.


thats really how you remember it is it?


Stella Cadente said:


> I also wouldn't ever bother with the twin-linked lascannons, its not a tank, so it shouldn't be used like one, just buy a predator with a turret lascannon to roll forwards with them.





Cato Sicarius said:


> Actually, according to the rules, it _is_ *classed as a Tank*





Stella Cadente said:


> I was referring more to basic common sense, not rules.
> 
> no, its a transport, with more firepower than a rhino that carries a small unit that works great when rolling around with a rhino with a full squad.


http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=618617#post618617


Cato Sicarius said:


> I don't walk in, insult everyone based on their choice of list, walk up to a store manager and say "I wanna buy this." like I own the place.


really?.....whats that gotta do with anything I said?


Cato Sicarius said:


> Don't just barge in and think you know everything about everyone, because quite often Stella (as I myself have learned in the past on numerous occasions) you don't.


good job I never said I do that

if your gonna try and start an argument with someone, try to look a little less like a clueless prick by getting your facts right, and making points that make sense, or correspond with things I actually said.


----------



## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

Holy fuck. I saw that new edition please title and got a boner.

Couldn't agree more.


40k 4th edition = 100 or more games in 3 years...
40k 5th edition = 6 games in 2 years...


----------



## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

5th Edition really has been consistently made of shame and failure, in my opinion. It's playable, as long as everyone's being responsible and not going "Hm, I want to be as big of a douche as possible and make this only fun for one of the two people playing today." Battle Missions went a long way towards restoring the playability of the system, I think. However, the actual core mechanics of 5th Edition aren't the problem, by and large. Kill Points are retarded in the extreme, but otherwise, the system isn't what's broken. The Codecies are consistently leaps and bounds ahead of one another, and seemingly are built with power gaming specifically in mind. The mentality of the game seems to be "newest best" in the extreme, and that's the sign of poor games design. I'm not sure how much a new edition of the game would actually fix that, short of doing a cold reset ala the release of 3rd Edition.


----------



## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

The Son of Horus said:


> 5th Edition really has been consistently made of shame and failure, in my opinion. It's playable, as long as everyone's being responsible and not going "Hm, I want to be as big of a douche as possible and make this only fun for one of the two people playing today." Battle Missions went a long way towards restoring the playability of the system, I think. However, the actual core mechanics of 5th Edition aren't the problem, by and large. Kill Points are retarded in the extreme, but otherwise, the system isn't what's broken. The Codecies are consistently leaps and bounds ahead of one another, and seemingly are built with power gaming specifically in mind. The mentality of the game seems to be "newest best" in the extreme, and that's the sign of poor games design. I'm not sure how much a new edition of the game would actually fix that, short of doing a cold reset ala the release of 3rd Edition.


The newest released books have been anything but, that's much more like what older books were like. At no points has GW produced books which have been able to produce so many balanced lists which are different in playstyles and competitive across books. Although the common opinion is IG and SW are the best books (which weren't the latest releases btw) the other new books and older books with certain builds (i.e. Eldar, DE, Tau, WH) compete very well.

There are a lot more viable lists out there than in previous editions (i.e. Rhino rush, tri-falcon, etc.) and when you pitch balanced lists against each other there is no "douchery." Clt40k has it right when he points out if someone brings a good and balanced list they find it boring (generally at least, there are the occasional douches) playing against bad lists because the game isn't fun. What would you rather watch, a closely fought battle or a wipeout? 5th edition brings a lot of balance to the game in terms of army composition not just through the codecies but through the core rules emphasising mobility.


----------



## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

My mistake about that argument Stella.

And about that, well, if they're really treating you that badly I assume they have some reason to, y'know? You get the odd douche now and then, but very rarely do you get them in groups, so common sense would suggest you being nice you result in them being nicer.


----------



## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

i like 5th ed. but 1 thing wtf is point of being fearless anymore when you take double wounds from being outnumbered or loseing a combat round thats just retarded and make s no sense


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

TheSpore said:


> i like 5th ed. but 1 thing wtf is point of being fearless anymore when you take double wounds from being outnumbered or loseing a combat round thats just retarded and make s no sense


Because when the Fearless troops are getting their asses kicked their lack of a sense of self-preservation becomes a disadvantage.


----------



## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

i still its stupid the combat round is over there is no reason to be takin extra wounds im sorry it made more sense that a fearless unit just never had to check for morale. I love WH40K with a passion and i may never stop playing but sometimes GW puts out something makes no sense like the old persue rules in 3rd. by far the best edition the game that was around was 2nd and i feel honestly they should bring it back to its roots and just rework this old system screw focusing on dummyfieing the the game so kids can play straight most kids today are smater than many grown ups out there.


----------



## CLT40k (Jun 18, 2010)

The biggest problem with the 40K game system is that not all choices are created equal. If you could take a dash of Fire Warriors + dash of Kroot + an Etherial + vespids and have a good list then that would be one thing. But it's not. There exists a situation where I can have a very good list and you can pick all crap. So when we play it's not a very fun game for either of us cause one side is at an OBVIOUS disadvantage.

But - whos fault is that?

I would argue that it's your fault. Quit being stupid. It's like saying you don't want to play my football/Rugby team because all our guys are too big and we're obviously more fit... so we should play down to your level to have fun... That logic will NOT hold up in the real world. 

I would also say that it's GW's fault for making so many bad choices in each codex. I would love to see cool swooping hawks. I would LOVE for Vespids to be cool.... But until they do something on the table other than show off my painting skills, they most likely won't have a place in my lists.

The ray of hope (as Kriby points out above) is that with the newer books, you're getting more an more good builds....


----------



## Raptors8th (Jul 3, 2009)

Congratulations everyone, you made the Friday Night Internet Fight this week over on Dick Move! Take a look and laugh at your stupidity...

And I'm not going to add in my two cents seeing as Kirbs and CLT40k have both made the correct ones and still no ones listening.


----------



## quachill (Apr 29, 2009)

The Son of Horus said:


> 5th Edition really has been consistently made of shame and failure, in my opinion. It's playable, as long as everyone's being responsible and not going "Hm, I want to be as big of a douche as possible and make this only fun for one of the two people playing today." Battle Missions went a long way towards restoring the playability of the system, I think. However, the actual core mechanics of 5th Edition aren't the problem, by and large. Kill Points are retarded in the extreme, but otherwise, the system isn't what's broken. The Codecies are consistently leaps and bounds ahead of one another, and seemingly are built with power gaming specifically in mind. The mentality of the game seems to be "newest best" in the extreme, and that's the sign of poor games design. I'm not sure how much a new edition of the game would actually fix that, short of doing a cold reset ala the release of 3rd Edition.


This parallels my thoughts very closely. The Codecies are particularly out of wack. Of course each new codex is being written so that players of that army will have several new must have units that have new models for purchase. 
I don't begrudge GW for going after profit but they *seem* to care far less about game balance than they use to. 

I hope for 6th Ed that they do go for a cold restart like they did in 3rd Ed.
Heck one more round of codicies and every unit in the game will be fearless with feel no pain and 3+ melta type weapons.


----------



## Raptors8th (Jul 3, 2009)

Yes because currently everything is stubborn with 2+ saves and free melta guns.
Did you even think that one out, honestly? You basically just described plague marines, which are form one of the _oldest_ and _weakest_ codices currently out. Great thinking there.


----------



## quachill (Apr 29, 2009)

I did think that out. That is my point the game is already over powered and getting worse.

We need a restart I say.


----------



## CLT40k (Jun 18, 2010)

Overpowered is a completely relative term in a game where you have multiple ways to make a good list. Really the only codex that should complain is Orks... Everybody else has competative builds (if limited) 

So really, what I hear when you say "overpowered" is "I'm not willing to play a good list... I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing and then cry about 'powergamers' when I get beat by a clearly superior list" It's a way for you to write off your loss and take something away from the guy who beat you (since he ONLY did it by playing a 'power' list)

Am I hearing this right or am I way off base.


----------



## quachill (Apr 29, 2009)

My troubles and complaints aside. When you start a game with heavy weapons and tanks being tiny but important to a game where everyone is fielding 10 times the heavy weapons and tank that used to be available, something has to give the game mechanics can only support so much power creep before it just dumb or completely broken.

I can see you have Space Wolves which right now is known even among the power gamers of my store as the most overpowered and broken of armies out now aside maybe an imperial guard tank spam list. So I imagine you are tired of hearing cries of over powered. 
At any rate you can say I win I win and do a happy dance as I leave these boards for new forums.


----------



## Calamari (Feb 13, 2009)

There is no limit to power creep, it's a vicious circle with every new codex making the ones before it that bit crapper untill they get a new book.

I think CLT nailed it in his last post though.


----------



## Underground Heretic (Aug 9, 2008)

Everyone, chill out. Let's remember that we can have different opinions on the same thing and we can coexist on the same forum without having to agree. My personal opinions aside, fifth edition is very different from previous editions, more so the farther back you go. The game's rules are what they are and the metagame is different from location to location and can be changed. You can have fun without winning, but generally winning is more fun than losing. As time passes, new codices will come out and be more on par with each other. Until then we have to deal with the game as it is; but we can do it civilly.

Have a good day and happy wargaming.


----------



## CLT40k (Jun 18, 2010)

Look mate, I'm not trying to be ugly... but what you're saying is that I'm BAD for playing a list that you feel is BROKEN and you're somehow the martyr when your dex has a lot of really cool stuff in it - but that you don't want to play. Tanks are better in 5th ed than they were in 4th... That's why you just don't see footsloggin as much anymore... 

Yes, SpaceWolves are just like marines but better.... But with the Wolves, there are some builds that I just can't do as effectively as Marines (Bikes or Termies for example) IMO, It's a trade off... That being said, I have no main battle tanks in my 2K wolves list. I have three rhinos and 4 Razorbacks. I'm taking 4 troops choices. I also don't have a single Invo save in my list. But I still manage to run a pretty competative list. I just take advantage of the things the Wolves do really well (that you call broken)

See, every codex out there has stuff in it that, if you're on the receiving end, might feel broken or cheesy... but honestly, it's part of the game... 

Examples:
Eldar Cheater Stones that make me take psychic tests on 3D6
Nids Cheater power that makes me take psychic tests on 3D6
Wolves cheater staffs that let me negate your psychic stuff on 4+
Smurfs Libby casting Null Zone
EmoMarines and the Blood Lance
SpacePirateElves and the dark lance
Imperial Guard who like tanks - (thank god for the Squadron rules meaning I break them on a 4+ on the damae table...)
Templars - Accept any Challenge no matter the odds
Plague Marines on Bikes
Khorne Zerkers
Etc......

So you can't really say that the other armies don't have access to other advantages (except Orks) -- so how is it I'm wrong for maximizing my strengths and minimizing my army's weaknesses when YOU have the same opportunity?


----------



## CLT40k (Jun 18, 2010)

Even Orks though have some cool stuff... 

1. The first time I shot my Shokk Attak Gun - I put snotlings INSIDE A TAC SQUAD OF MARINES - how cool is that?
2. The Big Weirdboy can turn Abbadon into a Face Eater Squig

But thier complete lack of a way to hurt tanks consistantly really hinders them competatively... I wish they'd get some kind of Melta gun to put into squads or something...


----------



## Don_Keyballs (Jan 14, 2010)

I agree ten fold with CLT40k about everything he said. With that though, I'm pretty sure your main point was that you didn't like playing against the same types of lists all of the time and would like more variety. Then it is simple... 

FIND NEW PEOPLE TO PLAY WITH. 

I can go on about how I prefer 5th edition rules, and I can also go on about how I find Nids to be a broken codex myself because I use a 4th edition DA codex that barely better then the 3rd edition codexs that are soon to be updated. But that would just be trolling and is just not required because the simple solution is like I stated above.

If you hate going up against competitive lists all the time, find new people to play with who just like to have fun with whatever lists. If you hate going up against whatever lists all the time and would like to have a challenge... then FIND NEW PEOPLE to play with. The game is fine the way it is, maybe it is the company that you play with that needs updating.


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

This thread has been just chock full of silly statements. No wonder it ended up on Friday Night Internet Fight.

People seriously need to actually play this game in a serious (by that I mean competitive) fashion before making sweeping statements. Maybe it's ignorant of me to say this, but I'm of the opinion that you need to truly _get_ a game before one's criticisms can be taken seriously. In many cases an entirely casual player's viewpoints are just... well, I'm going to say it. Wrong.

I do not intend to single anyone out here so please don't take offense to this, but all these claims of broken codecies, Codex Creep, every unit having this and this rule and so on are just... false. So what if Feel No Pain has become abundant with the release of Codex: Blood Angels? That doesn't suddenly mean that every army in the game has a massive number of troops with that rule, or Fearless or any other crap like this. It's just untrue.


----------



## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

I agree with Katie here. I believe you can't really criticize something unless you are a certain level of skill with it. if you're not very good at the game, not anyone in particular just in general here, then there's a very high chance that it's your grasp of tactics, list building and all that stuff, not the actual game itself. 

Newer Codices are not broken or over powered. BA having FNP pretty much in the entire army people are calling over powered and broken. Chaos codex is how old and you could have an entire army of t5 FNP guys in that.


----------



## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Don_Keyballs said:


> FIND NEW PEOPLE TO PLAY WITH.


I always laugh at how people like to make this sound so easy, I really do, everyone seems to imagine you can just cross a road and find a bunch of new players to game with, not realising allot of people have no transport, live many miles from the next GW and simply cannot afford to keep finding new players when the first bunch are jerks.

plus there is no guarantee the next bunch even if you do find them, will be better people to play against, your more than likely to find worse people to play against, people you wouldn't give the time of day even if they begged you to let them use there broken list against you so they have the satisfaction of beating you without you standing a cat in hells chance.

afterall the sign of a true gamer apparently these days is someone who can and does do that on a regular basis while claiming every codex is fair and balanced.

I just have this feeling that one day (maybe next week) GW could write codex SPESS MAHREENS again and give every marine a 2+ save and invulnerable, 2+ FNP while dual wielding 2 twin-linked multi meltas that they can fire on the move and increase the range to 72" all for 10pts and you would STILL have people claim its far and balanced and in no wy codex creep.........while proceeding to pick on new players to further heighten there sense of smug satisfaction to claim themselves as warhammer gods


----------



## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

Don't recall anyone claiming all books are fair and balanced? The new books are whilst the older books generally suffer from mono-builds because of poor codex design (you know, from 3rd and 4th edition?). SOme of those builds are very good (Eldar, DE, Tau, Witchunters) and some are plain crap (Necrons, Daemons, Daemonhunters, Chaos, Orks).

Otherwise agree with Katie. It's like when the world cup or olypmics rolls around. Everyone becomes an expert and the crap you hear...sigh.


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Kirby said:


> Otherwise agree with Katie. It's like when the world cup or olypmics rolls around. Everyone becomes an expert and the crap you hear...sigh.


No kidding. This is what happens when you let a bunch of people who don't know what they're talking about say whatever comes to mind.


----------



## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Kirby said:


> Don't recall anyone claiming all books are fair and balanced?


if you claim a book isn't broken and overpowerd, then what else is it?, well apart from the claims of codexes being shit and underpowered usually made by competitive players because there usual tactic of copy+paste=win doesn't work


Kirby said:


> suffer from mono-builds because of poor codex design (you know, from 3rd and 4th edition?)


oh the glory days of third, when every army I saw was completely different to another, but all equally capable of winning as the next, if thats down to poor codex design and mono-builds then gimme more of that tasty 3rd (but cut out the rending 4th)

better than the MECH FOR THE WINZOR!!!! 5th, where if your not playing mech you had better not reveal yourself, otherwise those gamers will come to were you live and murder your family and call you dumb.

no really I would honestly believe some would happily murder your family just because your not a mech fan.


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Stella Cadente said:


> well apart from the claims of codexes being shit and underpowered usually made by competitive players because there usual tactic of copy+paste=win doesn't work


Except if you _really_ look at the discussions, you'll find that it isn't actually like that. Seriously, competitive players aren't demons. At least not most of 'em.



> oh the glory days of third, when every army I saw was completely different to another, but all equally capable of winning as the next, if thats down to poor codex design and mono-builds then gimme more of that tasty 3rd (but cut out the rending 4th)


Huh? But every army in 3rd was either an assault army or a shooty army. One player would Rhino Rush the shooty player and... yeah. That was basically 3rd in a nutshell. There were tons of awesome variant lists and stuff, that was great, but high level play was actually insanely simplistic.



> better than the MECH FOR THE WINZOR!!!! 5th, where if your not playing mech you had better not reveal yourself, otherwise those gamers will come to were you live and murder your family and call you dumb.
> 
> no really I would honestly believe some would happily murder your family just because your not a mech fan.


Again, it's really not anywhere even close to this bad in most places. If your local group is really this awful (which I kinda doubt, it sounds like a bit of exaggeration) seriously look into finding a new group. Check online and see if there are any other groups nearby or whatever and see if they're any better. Not much to lose by doing so.


----------



## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Katie Drake said:


> Huh? But every army in 3rd was either an assault army or a shooty army. One player would Rhino Rush the shooty player and... yeah. That was basically 3rd in a nutshell. There were tons of awesome variant lists and stuff, that was great, but high level play was actually insanely simplistic.


never what I saw or experienced, players who focused on one point always lost, players who took a selection of everything would win if they used it properly against another player doing the same, sure it had flaws, but they could of been fixed quite easily

allot less powergamers back in 3rd as well in my experience, seemed more friendly compared to the drowning amount of assholes 4th created who tagged along with 5th to infect practically everyone who plays. 


Katie Drake said:


> If your local group is really this awful (which I kinda doubt, it sounds like a bit of exaggeration)


it used to be this awful when I played in GW's, once I stopped completely and played in my club things got fine, but I find the players I have met in GW store are as bad as this, maybe worse but I can't express fully how bad without swearing in different languages to get my point across


----------



## Raptors8th (Jul 3, 2009)

CLT40k said:


> Overpowered is a completely relative term in a game where you have multiple ways to make a good list. Really the only codex that should complain is Orks... Everybody else has competative builds (if limited)


Uhhh, crons don't, and daemons, daemonhunters, and chaos have issues, but otherwise yeah, pretty much.


----------



## CLT40k (Jun 18, 2010)

if you claim a book isn't broken and overpowerd, then what else is it?, well apart from the claims of codexes being shit and underpowered usually made by competitive players because there usual tactic of copy+paste=win doesn't work​
Dude, I'm just gonna go ahead and say it... You're completely full of crap. 

The way you describe it you've been crucified for your beliefs and driven from the halls of gaming by the evil gamers... Bullshit... I think you just like to whine. In your 4300+ posts do you have ANYTHING positive about the game to say? Cause all I've read so far is "I like to make dramatic emo statements about the game... waaaahhh" --- please, post a link to where you've said something constructive that wasn't whiny...

Honestly, if you're anything like your internet self in real life, I'm not surprized you can't find folks to play with... It's pretty clear to me that 5th edition is not your cup of tea... AND THAT'S OK. I'm sorry you don't like tanks... I SUPPORT YOUR RIGHT TO NOT LIKE TANKS. But guess what, it's part of the game so either get OK with it or find another game to play... cause it's not going away no matter how much you whine about Broken/cheesy/beardy/mean people who are hurting your feelings. 

Here's a thought....


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

CLT40k said:


> Dude, I'm just gonna go ahead and say it... You're completely full of crap.
> 
> The way you describe it you've been crucified for your beliefs and driven from the halls of gaming by the evil gamers... Bullshit... I think you just like to whine. In your 4300+ posts do you have ANYTHING positive about the game to say? Cause all I've read so far is "I like to make dramatic emo statements about the game... waaaahhh" --- please, post a link to where you've said something constructive that wasn't whiny...


In my short time on this forum this is probably the most blatant personal attack I have every seen. The whole point of a thread is to discuss our thoughts and opinions on the topic. Putting someone (yes, even Stella) down because their opinion conflicts with yours is: A) Rude, B) Against the forum rules, and C) Against the point of the thread. It's annoying that on this forum as soon as anyone criticizes, or offers a negative opinion on; GW, their policy, or one of their gaming systems, they're immediately told to 'quit whining'. 

Remember for every negative, complaining 'whiner' on this forum there are a dozen just as annoying people who believe GW and anything they do has descended from the heavens to whisk humanity away to the promised lands. I find them just as annoying, but the two extremes in opinion cancel each other out and give a nice balanced discussion. 



CLT40k said:


> But guess what, it's part of the game so either get OK with it or find another game to play... cause it's not going away no matter how much you whine about Broken/cheesy/beardy/mean people who are hurting your feelings.


I don't see the problem with people criticizing the game, or 'whining' as you prefer to call it. Criticism helps to improve things. If my read through the 8th ed fantasy rule-book has taught me anything it's that *GW is actually starting to listen to people's complaints and suggestions* (Huzza! Finally!). Now's the time to whine and complain! Bitch and moan about parts of the game you dislike, cause if enough people complain about it GW may actually change it next edition.

Now back on topic:

Lets face it, 5th ed is not fun. It's boring, it's predictable and it's devoid of any large variance. On the outside it's still 40k, but it's missing it's heart and soul and everything else that separated it from the pack of mediocre miniature games. Now I need to go throw myself off a roof for being so lame.


----------



## JackalMJ (Nov 12, 2009)

I dont generally do personal attacks and agree that everyone has a right to their own opinon. However I have to admit Stella does have a habit of showing up in boosts, tearing it apart in a "end of the world' type appraoch 

I do hope i'm wrong and I really believe Stella is an intellgent person who can and has offered solid innsight into various discussions, but sadly this does not appear to be one of them.

Also in response to the post above me, I love 5th edition. Thats right i've come out and said it. I maybe a majoirty or a minority but I really do enjoy it. 4th Edition was all about lascannons and anyone vechile was oblierated (hell even my Monolith was no match for 10 lascannons a round). This edition vechiles are where they belong. I do not like or agree with all the rules but then you wont with any edition. But I sure anit boring.


----------



## Underground Heretic (Aug 9, 2008)

Having only started playing 40k with the introduction of 5th edition, I can't speak about how it stacks up to 4th, 3rd, etc. To me 5th simply is. In some ways it is difficult for my beloved Tau, in some ways we could wait until 6th comes out for a new codex, but 5th is simply 40k as I know it. I'll admit I've had some moments when I'm just as frustrated with GW as anyone. But when (if) Tau get a new codex, I'm sure there will be parts I will have no problem with but others will do Chicken Little impersonations over.

The point is to get the most fun out of your hobby time and money. If that means playing to win every game or painting like there's no tomorrow, do it. That includes venting on the internet. Let's remember this is the internet: we probably won't ever meet each other physically, no one will (should) be in your face and/or threaten you. If you disagree with someone feel free do take either of the following actions: IGNORE THEM (this is the internet) or Rebut their argument with one of your own based on facts in a polite manner.

Now let's get back to ripping up or defending 5th and not each other, folks.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

JackalMJ said:


> Also in response to the post above me, I love 5th edition. Thats right i've come out and said it. I maybe a majoirty or a minority but I really do enjoy it. 4th Edition was all about lascannons and anyone vechile was oblierated (hell even my Monolith was no match for 10 lascannons a round). This edition vechiles are where they belong. I do not like or agree with all the rules but then you wont with any edition. But I sure anit boring.


It's certainly your right to like 5th ed (and anything else). I don't like it, but that's just me. For me 4th > 5th, but 3rd edition was king. The fact that it was the edition that brought me into this hobby is probably part of the reason I like it so much.


----------



## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

CLT40k said:


> please, post a link to where you've said something constructive that wasn't whiny...


why?, your the one who wants to know, go do it yourself, or be like every member and claim you have read all 4312 of my posts and have never been positive or helpful in my entire existence.


CLT40k said:


> I'm sorry you don't like tanks... I SUPPORT YOUR RIGHT TO NOT LIKE TANKS.


when did I say I don't like tanks? (I do an armoured battlegroup for christs sake that will have 12 TANKS (not transports) in it), like I said mechanised armies in 40k have very little to do with tanks and more to do with transports, and I don't hate either, I hate how everyone shovels mechanised down your throat like its the ONLY way to play and if your not playing mech your an idiot, and if your not playing army X your an idiot, and if you play army Y you can never win.....and your an idiot.


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Lets face it, 5th ed is not fun. It's boring, it's predictable and it's devoid of any large variance. On the outside it's still 40k, but it's missing it's heart and soul and everything else that separated it from the pack of mediocre miniature games. Now I need to go throw myself off a roof for being so lame.


5th Edition is plenty of fun. I've had more fun with 5th than I've had with any other edition of the game (been playing since early 3rd edition). There's *plenty* of variance between armies. Just because mechanized armies are the way to win in this edition doesn't mean that everyone is playing them. The only time you're really "forced" to play a mech army is if you're intending on playing competitively with a strong list against equally competitive people with equally strong lists. To top it off, there are more and more non-mech builds becoming available. Tyranids are one army that you can't play mech with even if you wanted to and the new Blood Angels Codex offer an array of different builds.

The only reason that it seems like the game is "Always mech, all the time," is because of the single failure of discussion forums - the same information ends up recycled dozens and dozens of times and new ideas don't really manage to make their mark. Check out people's blogs and one will see a lot of new ideas. Kirby's blog as well as the infamous Yesthetruthhurts.com are just two places to find the most "modern" ways of thinking about 40K. For anyone that feels that 40K has degenerated into mech vs. mech, please check out these blogs. A breath of fresh air is extremely, well... refreshing.


----------



## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Any game like this needs imagination instead of copying other ideas too. Just for giggles I ran an all tactical squad BA list, 4 squads, only 2 with transports and my anti tank was devastators. It did surprisingly well. The game is mainly mech because people who first played mech lists annihilated normal lists and people adapted to that by bringing their own mech, eventually people will start bringing infantry heavy mech stopping lists and the game will turn into that. Everything on the face of the earth evolves. Warhammer is just one of them too. people will just have to stop regurgitating the old mech lists to make the game more balanced and I can honestly see that happening already with a lot of footslogging lists doing well in my area.


----------



## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

I don't really want a new edition yet. I'd just like 5th Edition, Second Printing, the result of a roving gang of copy editors and play testers breaking into the GW building and fixing all the little stupid problems. The little things, like nice rules saying that units should be deployed in coherency; or explaining whether or not a unit in close combat while in cover that gets hit by a ranged attack somehow gets cover saves.

Anyone want to go on an editing rampage? :wild:


----------



## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

I'd gladly veto any attempt to do anything to 5th bar a FAQ until all codices are more or less up to date, 4th Ed codex armies can still manage, though they may be starting to struggle, its 'The Forgotten' we need to worry about, the codices stuck back in 2nd and 3rd Edition.

So essentially as it has been said before, hopefully before we see a new rules edition we get Dark Eldar, Daemonhunters, Witchhunters, Necron, Tau, Black Templar, CSM new codices, then maybe 6th Ed. Orks really dont need a new codex in 5th as their codex was made late in 4th with 5th in mind, so they can happily tot along until 6th IMHO.

Other than that, if 5th bother you, you can either adapt your army, try expanding the circle of people you game with, (at extremes) get a new army, change your tactics.
The two most important things to remember are what your taking in your list and how your going to use it.

Grish.


----------



## Asmodeun (Apr 26, 2009)

I wouldn't doubt that that crap would happen around here if we had the money for it. As it is I think this ed it pretty, considering.


----------



## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> 5th Edition is plenty of fun. I've had more fun with 5th than I've had with any other edition of the game (been playing since early 3rd edition). There's *plenty* of variance between armies. Just because mechanized armies are the way to win in this edition doesn't mean that everyone is playing them. The only time you're really "forced" to play a mech army is if you're intending on playing competitively with a strong list against equally competitive people with equally strong lists. To top it off, there are more and more non-mech builds becoming available. Tyranids are one army that you can't play mech with even if you wanted to and the new Blood Angels Codex offer an array of different builds.
> 
> The only reason that it seems like the game is "Always mech, all the time," is because of the single failure of discussion forums - the same information ends up recycled dozens and dozens of times and new ideas don't really manage to make their mark. Check out people's blogs and one will see a lot of new ideas. Kirby's blog as well as the infamous Yesthetruthhurts.com are just two places to find the most "modern" ways of thinking about 40K. For anyone that feels that 40K has degenerated into mech vs. mech, please check out these blogs. A breath of fresh air is extremely, well... refreshing.


Gotta agree with Katie on this one, she hit the nail on the head. Copy/paste players bore me to no end at my gaming tables. Kirby's blog does rock btw. :victory:


----------



## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

Wusword77 said:


> Gotta agree with Katie on this one, she hit the nail on the head. Copy/paste players bore me to no end at my gaming tables. Kirby's blog does rock btw. :victory:


<3. I also agree with Katie. I find the main problem is as Katie pointed out, forums. Mech has dominated the field for over 2 years but there have been non-tank lists which have been good for over 2 years as well as hybrid-tank armies which have been good for over 2 years and yet you'll find most forums don't believe these armies are competitive.

Examples: Tau & Biker marines (Vanilla). 

This comes down to understanding the mechanics of 5th 40k. 5th edition has made 40k back into a much more mobile game through the reduction in transport prices, the improvement of vehicle survivability, passengers not rolling around on the ground in pain whenever their transport hits a pothole and mission designed (namely get into midfield or lose). If you can design a non-tank army which can still deal with tanks, can take punishment (i.e. extra bodies, FNP, etc.) and is MOBILE, well you've got a potentially competitive 5th edition list. This is why Tyranids, Tau, Bikers, Blood Rodeo, TWC, etc. work. 

Again, only 1/3 of my armies are pure tanks, 1/3 hybrid and 1/3 pure "foot." I'll take that variety any day of the week.


----------



## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

I have to say I have still done well with my all infantry Guard army and even better in 5th edition because I no longer have to worry about some random assault unit chewing through the entire army or having to send out decoy units to keep them occupied. There's always a way to handle whatever army one is facing, you just have to get in that codex and discover it for yourself. I'm really not a mech person, sorry but I still have a bitter taste for tanks from previous editions.

I do have to say though I loved 2nd edition, it was full of fun and laughs versus it's predecesors. Hell in second good luck keeping a group of Stormboyz together or how psychic powers were like the magic powers in WHFB. I use to love that, but anh again maybe I love it because it's where I started.


----------



## Farseer_Iowan (Jun 25, 2010)

I am not sure about your LGS game players but where I play, if you start seeing a theme where its Mech heavy, we do an escalation league starting at the lowly 500 pt combat patrol, add some limitations for a little bit, like what we are doing, we started at a 500 pt CP with no Mechs the first week, 2nd week we allowed only 32 pts (armor wise front + back + side) armor mech, with no characters or Armor saves of 2+ until (1500 pts). I noticed some people just get in a rut, this works why change it and forget how adaptable there armies could be... We ran into an issue with Necron's having a harder time playing at a lower points cost due to there phase out rule. One way we thought of getting around this is saying there is a warp storm that does not allow you to phase, homebrewed yes but it put the Necron players on a better footing....


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

As a CSM Player I find Mech is laughable. The only Mech I use is Rhinos, just to get my guys where there going. With Flying DPs, 2 Wound Termy Armore Oblits, and the best Troop Choices in the game, Who needs Tanks, Walkers, or 8 Tranports with TL Lascannons (looking at you Razor Back), not me . 

Also Nob Biker List laugh at Mech list. Seer Council List with Wraithlords make a Mockery of all mech list. There is plenty of non Mech out there. Im planning building a DE Haemunculas theme list at 1500 Pts with only 2 transports. As it stands there is enough St 8 Lance weapoms to make a Imperial Commander Cry, with 3 St 7 Tn 7 MC popping at you halfway across the board. Looking foward to this new list.


----------



## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> As a CSM Player I find Mech is laughable. The only Mech I use is Rhinos, just to get my guys where there going. With Flying DPs, 2 Wound Termy Armore Oblits, and the best Troop Choices in the game, Who needs Tanks, Walkers, or 8 Tranports with TL Lascannons (looking at you Razor Back), not me .
> 
> Also Nob Biker List laugh at Mech list. Seer Council List with Wraithlords make a Mockery of all mech list. There is plenty of non Mech out there. Im planning building a DE Haemunculas theme list at 1500 Pts with only 2 transports. As it stands there is enough St 8 Lance weapoms to make a Imperial Commander Cry, with 3 St 7 Tn 7 MC popping at you halfway across the board. Looking foward to this new list.


Sorry, Nob Bikers handle mech how? Hitting on 6's? Same with Councils. Eldar handle mech through mass S6 & Fire Dragons backed up by Prisms (certainly not Wraithlords :S). DE also wreck havoc @ lower points w/Raider/Ravager/DL spam. Move away form that and DE unfortunately suck currently.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Kirby said:


> Sorry, Nob Bikers handle mech how? Hitting on 6's? Same with Councils. Eldar handle mech through mass S6 & Fire Dragons backed up by Prisms (certainly not Wraithlords :S). DE also wreck havoc @ lower points w/Raider/Ravager/DL spam. Move away form that and DE unfortunately suck currently.


All good points. However Nobs List have dominated the Scene, hitting on sixes? How so, unless that tank decided to forgo each shooting phase so you roll sixes. Otherwise 4+ makes the Tank go pop, PKs a must. Same for Seer Councils, if they're so flawed then why were they highly stressed about? Cause again Tanks that wish to shoot have to move 6" not 12". 4+ again to pop, OR use Singing Spear to to Wreck a Vehicle that moved 12" Anyway. Hmm.... also ever tried to killed a Fortune 4+ Inv Seer Council? If you have Kirby you know nothing less than sheer bad dice roll on their part kills them. The Wraithlords also work in Harlie Theme Armies. Look up WayOfTheSaimHann vids on Youtube and its pretty solid. Not UBER but solid.The DE thing I cant really say as I have yet to try it. You know as well as I some things look good on paper but fail in the game, others look horrible but can win. Also this from a friendly stand point and not Ard Boys Meta Gamer point.


----------



## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> All good points. However Nobs List have dominated the Scene, hitting on sixes? How so, unless that tank decided to forgo each shooting phase so you roll sixes. Otherwise 4+ makes the Tank go pop, PKs a must. Same for Seer Councils, if they're so flawed then why were they highly stressed about? Cause again Tanks that wish to shoot have to move 6" not 12". 4+ again to pop, OR use Singing Spear to to Wreck a Vehicle that moved 12" Anyway. Hmm.... also ever tried to killed a Fortune 4+ Inv Seer Council? If you have Kirby you know nothing less than sheer bad dice roll on their part kills them. The Wraithlords also work in Harlie Theme Armies. Look up WayOfTheSaimHann vids on Youtube and its pretty solid. Not UBER but solid.The DE thing I cant really say as I have yet to try it. You know as well as I some things look good on paper but fail in the game, others look horrible but can win. Also this from a friendly stand point and not Ard Boys Meta Gamer point.


What scene? Nob biker armies suck because they can't deal with mech. I'll willingly forego my shooting with 1 or 2 tanks to block your movement and shoot you with the rest of my army. Seer Councils were good when psychic defense was rare and wasn't a pure 50/50 roll. To make seer councils work you need double fortune which means 2 Seers or Eldrad and most people don't run this which means it becomes unbalanced when you versus soemone with psy defense. People worry about Nob Bikers because they don't get game mechanics. Seer councils are worrisome becauase they can fit into balanced lists from a good book but no where near as much as they used to be. I'd rather versus a jetlock council Eldar list than pure mech.

Ya I've killed Councils. It's not exactly easy but when you have a balanced list with sacrifices, torrent, anti-psy and abilities like Null Zone, Councils are capable of being dealt with, just like TH/SS termies.

Fritz generally posts okay due to his understanding of 40k but he doesn't drop out uber competitive. Elfzilla (aka Wraithguard, Harlies, WLs) sucks. It has very limited mobility, poor anti-tank and poor cc ability outside of the Quins and expects you to land on it's anvil of Wraithguard and be counter-assaulted. It's not solid by any account, it's sub-par like all foot eldar.

And there is no meta-game. There is warhammer 40k 5th edition with players who understand the game mechanics and build balanced lists within those rule contrainsts (who are generally called WAAC, power gamers, cheesey and all that other crap for playing a tactical game...well tactically) and people who don't play to those constraits (either willingly or unwillingly; the unwillingly ones are generally the ones jumping up on down with the labels of cheese and OP whilst gamers like Fritz are more the willingly types).


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Kirby said:


> What scene? Nob biker armies suck because they can't deal with mech. I'll willingly forego my shooting with 1 or 2 tanks to block your movement and shoot you with the rest of my army. Seer Councils were good when psychic defense was rare and wasn't a pure 50/50 roll. To make seer councils work you need double fortune which means 2 Seers or Eldrad and most people don't run this which means it becomes unbalanced when you versus soemone with psy defense. People worry about Nob Bikers because they don't get game mechanics. Seer councils are worrisome becauase they can fit into balanced lists from a good book but no where near as much as they used to be. I'd rather versus a jetlock council Eldar list than pure mech.
> 
> Ya I've killed Councils. It's not exactly easy but when you have a balanced list with sacrifices, torrent, anti-psy and abilities like Null Zone, Councils are capable of being dealt with, just like TH/SS termies.
> 
> ...



Im Curious by Game Mechanics and how people dont know them when it came to Nob Bikers. I still see Nob Bikers, Lootas in Battlewagons, and some foot slogging boys with Mek work well.

Seer Councils still work well, theres alot of Meta Gamers (I use this term for anyone who has remembered the rules by heart and applies math hammer to their lists, nothing bad about them, I dont have that gift) who dont run enough Anti Psy to deal with a Eldar Player busting this list out in Tourneys. 

I also said the Fritz harlie list is not Competitive, but Solid. I still think its Solid. Just my Opponion. I think Iyaden Writh Gaurd/Lords/Avatar/Eldrad list are Solid. Alot others dont. There is very few all comers beat all by Math Hammer list. Leaf Blower and Lash/PM/Oblits come to mind, but even they can be beaten by other list.

I have nothing against Cheesy Players/Meta Gamers. I always try to build a list that can compete. Like Fritz though I enjoy playing something different from the Copy Paste List that you see so much of that you and Kate were talking about earlier.

Let me know about the Nob Bikers deal.


----------



## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> Meta Gamers (I use this term for anyone who has remembered the rules by heart and applies math hammer to their lists, nothing bad about them, I dont have that gift)


I disagree with this. metagamer doesn't really have a proper definition but I know loads of people who can basically play the entire game without looking at the rulebook or the codex because they play a lot. I'm one of them. do something enough times and it's stuck in your head basically. Also mathammer is technically in every list. You know Tau are gonna suck in CC against Marines because they need higher dice rolls to cause any damage and marines need much lower dice rolls to kill them. that's technically mathammer. 

On most other points I Agree with mostly. Just a niggly thing I had to reply about hehehe
on that topic however what is the general consensus as to what a "metagamer" is?? is is someone who has to win no matter what and basically throws every other aspect of the game(including fun) out the window??


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

'Kay, apparently people don't know what the metagame actually is.

From Wiki:



> Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game.


There's no reference there to WAAC play.


----------



## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Im Curious by Game Mechanics and how people dont know them when it came to Nob Bikers. I still see Nob Bikers, Lootas in Battlewagons, and some foot slogging boys with Mek work well.


Because people don'tknow how to deal with them. See again, 6's to hit *waves to mech.*



> Seer Councils still work well, theres alot of Meta Gamers (I use this term for anyone who has remembered the rules by heart and applies math hammer to their lists, nothing bad about them, I dont have that gift) who dont run enough Anti Psy to deal with a Eldar Player busting this list out in Tourneys.


The only time an army shouldn't have anti-psy is if you can't take it or you have a very specific build like IG blast spam or Vanilla Bikers. Otherwise you should always be fitting in psy defense. 



> I also said the Fritz harlie list is not Competitive, but Solid. I still think its Solid. Just my Opponion. I think Iyaden Writh Gaurd/Lords/Avatar/Eldrad list are Solid. Alot others dont. There is very few all comers beat all by Math Hammer list. Leaf Blower and Lash/PM/Oblits come to mind, but even they can be beaten by other list.


Leafblower and Lash Chaos aren't good lists. Leafblower is an unoptimised IG list which everyone claims Darkwynn "created" IG mech with...because IG mech wasn't around before then. Lash dies to Mech and the Chaos codex is overcosted to it's new Marine conterparts.



> I have nothing against Cheesy Players/Meta Gamers. I always try to build a list that can compete. Like Fritz though I enjoy playing something different from the Copy Paste List that you see so much of that you and Kate were talking about earlier.
> 
> Let me know about the Nob Bikers deal.


there is no metagame. Metagame implies change. 5th edition hasn't changed since it's inception, only individuals' playstyles have. New books offer tiny "meta" changes [such as improved psychic abilities] but we are operating under the 5th edition rules. Must "metagaming" is tailoring because people don'tunderstand army mechanics. There is no cheese. Cheesy/OP/powergaming/etc is percieved when there is a huge discrepency between perceived army "power." This is generally a lack of understanding in game mechanics, i.e. leafblower, chaos and orks all being considered "good." Balanced lists will win more often than not against rock lists which has nothing to do with being cheesy or powergaming or the metagame. It's about understanding the rules and building an army to the best of the book's ability and playing to the best of your ability. This has nothing to do with this misconception of WAAC players who actively cheat. As a competitive gamer (unlike someone like Blackmoor) I want to find someone who has a good list and can use it because it's a great game more often than not and I'm just as likely to lose as win. Win %'s mean jack all so bashing up crap lists doesn't make me happy, even at tournaments (unlike Blackmoor). I'd rather beat good players and good lists yet people think this is power gaming because I'm taking the best list I can and should be punished with flaming, nerdrage and arbitary comp scores.


----------



## darklove (May 7, 2008)

I think there are a lot of meta game evolutions all the time. Each new codex and each new FAQ brings change. As people adapt their lists to beat the armies they fight most often, and those armies in turn change to stay one step ahead. 
The good gamers (gamers are those that are interested in tactics and strategy and applying rules) always change their game and try to stay several steps ahead  Hobbyists don't change their lists much because for them the hobby is more about models and painting, but the meta game is definitely very active among gamers.


----------



## Ravingbantha (Jan 9, 2009)

If you don't like tanks, the field tank busters. After a game or three your opponenets will get the idea and stop doing it.


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

To solve a bit of the confusion; Metagame is the term used to describe _how the majority of people you regularly play against play the game.
_
It's generally more applicable to Magic: The Gathering than it is to 40k, because there are only really three archtypes in MTG - Control, Aggro and Combo. Each of the three has sub-sets, but you can generally fit any deck into one of the three broad catagories. If you have 10 people who you play regularly, and 6 of them play aggro, 2 play control, 1 plays combo, and 1 plays some random deck that even he doesn't seem to know how it works, then your metagame is "Aggro", because that is what you face most often. You would then start tailoring your own deck to deal specifically with Aggro.

It's a bit trickier than that for 40k, because while you have the overarching theme of "Mech", each army does it in very different ways. You can have Mech assault, Mech shooty, Mech Spam, Mech Support and non-Mech (Horde, Sledgehammer etc) and every single army book will do it in different ways (A mech shooty Tau army requires a different unit selection and playstyle than Eldar for example) and therefore the perfect "Counter Army" is different for each race as well.

To give an example - You play against 4 people regularly, one has Tri-Raider with Dreadnought support, one is Mechdar, one is Tau Mech and one is Blood Angels.

All of the above armies are Mech, but consider:

- You need lots of Melta guns to kill the Tri-Raider list, but...

- Melta Guns are bad against Eldar and BA because Eldar are too fast and Angels will chop you up if you get that close without causing any damage previously, but...

- If you go for multiple S7-8 Weapons to deal with the Eldar/BA then you'll get smashed by the Tri-Raider list and the Tau (with their AV13 and 4+ Cover in the open) so...

- You have to take a balanced list with _some_ Melta, _some_ long range transport popping and _some_ way of dealing with infantry. Your Metagame is still "Mech", but it's extremely hard to create a list tailored to beat such a broad concept, unless most of your opponents are playing exactly the same army list.

So actually, there is nothing wrong with being a Metagamer, because even if you do tailor your list slightly (I know I play Orks a lot, so _slightly_ more Flamers make it into my lists than otherwise would) it's impossible to make a counter-list for what the meta game_ is_.

Hopefully that made sense.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Kirby said:


> Because people don'tknow how to deal with them. See again, 6's to hit *waves to mech.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I get where your comming from, but I still think if they dont have a way of blocking you and move 6" Nob Bikers rock.


darklove said:


> I think there are a lot of meta game evolutions all the time. Each new codex and each new FAQ brings change. As people adapt their lists to beat the armies they fight most often, and those armies in turn change to stay one step ahead.
> The good gamers (gamers are those that are interested in tactics and strategy and applying rules) always change their game and try to stay several steps ahead  Hobbyists don't change their lists much because for them the hobby is more about models and painting, but the meta game is definitely very active among gamers.


I agree with this.



Sethis said:


> To solve a bit of the confusion; Metagame is the term used to describe _how the majority of people you regularly play against play the game.
> _
> It's generally more applicable to Magic: The Gathering than it is to 40k, because there are only really three archtypes in MTG - Control, Aggro and Combo. Each of the three has sub-sets, but you can generally fit any deck into one of the three broad catagories. If you have 10 people who you play regularly, and 6 of them play aggro, 2 play control, 1 plays combo, and 1 plays some random deck that even he doesn't seem to know how it works, then your metagame is "Aggro", because that is what you face most often. You would then start tailoring your own deck to deal specifically with Aggro.
> 
> ...


Yes, it does help.


----------

