# Black Library Dublin.



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Had a great day today, with the Lions beating Australia and getting to spend time talking to our favourite writers. I thought I might throw up a few random facts that I can remember from the various seminars. 

I asked Dan Abnett if there really are any wolves on Fenris. Categorically, no. He did say there were an awful lot of creatures that looked like wolves though. He wouldn't expand on that. He also mentioned that the original plan was for him to do the TS book and McNeill to do the SWs.

ADB is writing a sequel to Helsreach. Grimaldus is called to judge the Celestial Lions, but it pretty much looks like the CLs get wiped out. Andrej will also make a return. This makes me happy.

We saw 5 slides from the upcoming graphic novel that Abnett has written and the guy who did all the HH covers drew. It's about the UM flagship chasing Kor Phaeron after Calth, and looks bloody amazing.

There will be a sequel to _Double Eagle_, called _Interceptor City_. The Phantine will be fighting inside the ruins of a huge hive. Not even an approximate date for this one though.

The Battle of Tallarn will be covered in a couple of novellas, and there _will _ be 10 million tanks. John French will be doing this.

The second book in the Ahriman trilogy will be out next June.

Another major character will die in the next Gaunt's Ghosts book. No clue which though.

Abnett has finished_ Unremembered Empire_,

and Astartes from no fewer than 7 legions will feature. There will be Smurfs (of course), DAs, White Scars, Iron Hands and Salamanders amongst others. He also read an extract from the book, which proved very interesting. It involved another Perpetual, one we haven't seen before, trying to infiltrate the city were Guilliman has just received the Lion. He receives a psychic message from one of the Cabal while in the middle of a gunfight, telling him to find his target and remind him of his mission, or carry out that mission himself. Oll Persson will also get more attention. 


McNeill also read a piece from his next HH novel,_ Vengeful Spirit_. It will get back to having Horus as the main character. 

We see Little Horus attend Horus in his state room. It turns out that Horus now has the Red Angel in his quarters, and is gearing up to use him again. Little Horus seems actually afraid of the Red Angel. Not a lot more on this one.


ADBs next HH project will be _The Master of Mankind_. I think we can figure out what it will be about. I don't think we'll see too much of the Emperor himself in it though. Most of the authors were at pains to stress that they don't want us to see too much of him as it may remove some of the mystery, but at the same time they don't want him just showing up in the last book and stealing all the thunder.

Dorn and Curze will meet again on Terra. Curze has a few scores to settle before he gets there though, by all accounts.

ADB, French, Abnett and McNeill are all pretty positive that The Scouring will get it's own series. They seemed pretty excited about the dynamic between Dorn and Guilliman, and their conflict over what direction the Imperium should take after the Heresy.

Seemingly there was never any intention to kill off Loken. Abnett said he was adamant about this, saying he had extended plans for him from the start. 

We will see Ancient Rylanor again. This is a definite. When this is is another matter though.

The argument about Fulgrim 

and who is in control was settled. McNeill said that Fulgrim is himself, and the demon is in the portrait.


EDIT: The Alpha Legion will be revisited, but probably not in another book dedicated to them. Both Abnett and McNeill said that the series is beyond the point when Legions get a book solely dedicated to them. When I asked about the fact that it appears that Alpharius and Omegon look to be heading in different directions, he (Abnett) said he was looking forward to exploring that more. He was asked if the AL were traitor or loyalist. His answer was "Both".

EDIT: We also saw a slide of a book cover with the Khan front and centre on the command deck of a star ship surrounded by his sons. There was no title for the book or mention of a date for it, it seemed to be just thrown in as a teaser. Abnett also revealed that the WS are his favourite legion, so it may not be a stretch to say it will be him writing it.

EDIT: I asked McNeill if, at that first meeting to discuss starting the HH series, was there ever a set number of books in mind. He said there was a rough idea of about 25 books, but they never really set a definite number. The success of the first three books really surprised everyone involved, and that led them to decide to just keep going till it was done and they'd covered all the important stuff, basically.

EDIT: McNeill was asked a two part question, first if he would be revisiting Uriel Ventris, and second, were there any plans to do anything further with the demon primarchs. His reply was that they were both pretty much the same question. So Ventris is going to tackle a primarch at some time in the future.

EDIT: There will be more Iron Snakes in various books. They will feature in _Warmaster_, they will be getting a SM battles book, which he said will tie in with a GG novel. The SM Battles book will cover the overall battle for a given planet as a whole, while the GG book will cover the part that they play in it. He said the Phantine might also show up there as well. He also said he has another novel about them in mind, and may start writing a chapter a month, and that they may do something similar to what they did with _Phalanx_, release it in a serialized format, and then the book as a whole when it's complete. The BL shepherd sitting there nodded encouragingly at this comment.

EDIT: Seemingly the writers have been told they were having too much fun throwing in teasers about the missing legions, and had to reign that in. Oh well.

EDIT:Abnett also said he never had any intention of going back to Eisenhorn after his trilogy, because he didn't invent the character, and wanted his fate to be decided by Inquisitor players, seeing as that was why he was developed in the first place. He started Ravenor with the intention of making it an ongoing series, but half way through the second book realised that it would only be a trilogy as well.

EDIT: We will see Brin Milo again.

There were a lot of prerelease books there, including the originally titled _Vulkan Lives_, but I didn't pick any up as I'm pretty much a digital fan nowadays. I was going to pick up the event exclusive _Imperial Truth_, but nearly fell over when they told me it was forty fucking euro! For a book no bigger than any of the novellas they've brought out. Not a chance.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Thanks for the update, Fist.

It's sad to hear that the Celestial Lions might be on their way out. Curse Dembski-Bowden's black heart! :biggrin:

'Unremembered Empire' sounds like it will be a great novel. I won't lie, I'm pretty excited about 'Vengeful Spirit' as well, even on the little information given.

The Battle of Tallarn... sigh. Some things I had always wished were "mythological exaggerations," and "ten million tanks" was one of those things. I'm sorry, but ridiculous numbers like those ruin my suspension of disbelief. You need a planet so badly that you needed ten million tanks? How many starships did it take to get theme there? How many landers to get them down there? And there wasn't a more efficient way to level that much ridiculous firepower? Like the million or Thunderbirds and Stormbirds you could fit on the same number of starships?

The authors have consistently said they didn't want to be slaves to the past, and that they had discretion to expand the background information. They have proved as much already, and this is another incident where (not to be insulting) amateurish efforts from more than a decade ago should have been improved. Forgive my rant, but concepts like that are just not my cup of tea.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

All very cool info dude, cheers.



Khorne's Fist said:


> We will see Ancient Rylanor again. This is a definite. When this is is another matter though.


Who said this? And did anyone follow this up with asking about Tarvitz? I've always been one to keep bringing Rylanor up since that quote from _Fulgrim_, when Lucius tells Eidolon, Tarvitz sent the ancient to guard some underground hanger. There was always going to be some follow up to that, curious as to how they will do it though and who will have survived with Rylanor, if anyone. I'm a massive fan of Tarvitz, but I think I would rather seem him staying dead on Istvaan III with Vipus. Otherwise aside from Torgaddon, Demeter and Temeter(heh), no major characters are killed down there really, and Temeter doesn't really count imo. 


As for the Ghosts comment, going to make a thread on that in fact, as it could merit quite a lot of speculation.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Honestly, I thought Loken was going to survive since 'Galaxy in Flames', and the reference you mentioned about the hangar was how I thought he, Tarvitz, and Rylanor were going to escape. You can imagine my disappointment when Loken alone was picked up, in "Cerberus Mode", and the other two were nowhere to be seen.

Sigh.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Phoebus said:


> The Battle of Tallarn... sigh.


I thought the same when they mentioned that number, but he went on to explain that at the start of the battle the planet is bombarded and becomes an irradiated waste land, and thereafter any fighting has to be done from the inside of an armoured vehicle. While it may not be ten million battle tanks, there will be that number of AFVs of one sort or another. Seemingly it's an effort to show the Imperial Army played a huge part in the Heresy as well. I will say by the end of his explanation I was convinced. Overall, after reading the likes of_ Crimson Fist_ and more recently _Ahriman:Exile_, and listening to him speak about his work, I have high hopes for John French.



Angel of Blood said:


> Who said this? And did anyone follow this up with asking about Tarvitz?


McNeill said he had an idea for Rylanor that would eventually be developed, but had no idea when at the moment. No mention of Tarvitz though.

Remembered more stuff, edited the first post.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> I asked Dan Abnett if there really are any wolves on Fenris. Categorically, no. He did say there were an awful lot of creatures that looked like wolves though. He wouldn't expand on that. He also mentioned that the original plan was for him to do the TS book and McNeill to do the SWs.


Interesting, I think that the Fenrisian Wolves are the souls of dead Space Wolves and other Fenrisians who have returned to watch over their planet. And they take the form of something familiar to them.



Khorne's Fist said:


> ADB is writing a sequel to Helsreach. Grimaldus is called to judge the Celestial Lions, but it pretty much looks like the CLs get wiped out. Andrej will also make a return. This makes me happy.


Already knew this from ADB's blog but I do hope that Grimaldus can save the Celestial Lions. And more Andrej is definitely a thing that makes me happy too.



Khorne's Fist said:


> We saw 5 slides from the upcoming graphic novel that Abnett has written and the guy who did all the HH covers drew. It's about the UM flagship chasing Kor Phaeron after Calth, and looks bloody amazing.


Will definitely be getting this, love Neil Robert's artwork and I do want to see how Kor Phaeron escapes the Ultramarines.



Khorne's Fist said:


> There will be a sequel to _Double Eagle_, called _Interceptor City_. The Phantine will be fighting inside the ruins of a huge hive. Not even an approximate date for this one though.


Meh.



Khorne's Fist said:


> The Battle of Tallarn will be covered in a couple of novellas, and there _will _ be 10 million tanks. John French will be doing this.


Multiple Tallarn novellas?? Very cool.



Khorne's Fist said:


> The second book in the Ahriman trilogy will be out next June.


Awesome.



Khorne's Fist said:


> Another major character will die in the next Gaunt's Ghosts book. No clue which though.


Not a Gaunt fan so meh.



Khorne's Fist said:


> Abnett has finished _The Unremembered Empire_,
> 
> and Astartes from no fewer than 7 legions will feature. There will be Smurfs (of course), DAs, White Scars, Iron Hands and Salamanders amongst others. He also read an extract from the book, which proved very interesting. It involved another Perpetual, one we haven't seen before, trying to infiltrate the city were Guilliman has just received the Lion. He receives a psychic message from one of the Cabal while in the middle of a gunfight, telling him to find his target and remind him of his mission, or carry out that mission himself. Oll Persson will also get more attention.


Awesome, with the Blood Angels obviously in it as well that leaves only the 7th Legion a mystery. A Traitor Legion definitely, but which one??



Khorne's Fist said:


> McNeill also read a piece from his next HH novel,_ Vengeful Spirit_. It will get back to having Horus as the main character.
> 
> We see Little Horus attend Horus in his state room. It turns out that Horus now has the Red Angel in his quarters, and is gearing up to use him again. Little Horus seems actually afraid of the Red Angel. Not a lot more on this one.


Epic, I was hoping both of those guys would show up again and I can't wait to see what McNeill does with them.



Khorne's Fist said:


> ADBs next HH project will be _The Master of Mankind_. I think we can figure out what it will be about. I don't think we'll see too much of the Emperor himself in it though. Most of the authors were at pains to stress that they don't want us to see too much of him as it may remove some of the mystery, but at the same time they don't want him just showing up in the last book and stealing all the thunder.


Good, the Emperor needs a bit more of a presence in the series I think but too much and he becomes just another character. Can't wait to see ADB's take on the loyalists and the Custodians.



Khorne's Fist said:


> Dorn and Curze will meet again on Terra. Curze has a few scores to settle before he gets there though, by all accounts.


Nice, hopefully they are with the Lion.



Khorne's Fist said:


> ADB, French, Abnett and McNeill are all pretty positive that The Scouring will get it's own series. They seemed pretty excited about the dynamic between Dorn and Guilliman, and their conflict over what direction the Imperium should take after the Heresy.


Awesome. The Iron Cage, Guilliman vs. Alpharius, the Fall of Caliban, etc. Many many cool events in the Scouring to look forward to.



Khorne's Fist said:


> Seemingly there was never any intention to kill off Loken. Abnett said he was adamant about this, saying he had extended plans for him from the start.


I read this somewhere else as well. Good, it means that the future story plans for Loken aren't just something they cooked up to justify bringing him back.



Khorne's Fist said:


> We will see Ancient Rylanor again. This is a definite. When this is is another matter though.


Cool, hope Rylanor comes back to demolish many many traitors. Perhaps kill Eidolon for the final time.



Khorne's Fist said:


> The argument about Fulgrim
> 
> and who is in control was settled. McNeill said that Fulgrim is himself, and the demon is in the portrait.


_The Reflection Crack'd_ told us that already.



Khorne's Fist said:


> EDIT: The Alpha Legion will be revisited, but probably not in another book dedicated to them. Both Abnett and McNeill said that the series is beyond the point when Legions get a book solely dedicated to them. When I asked about the fact that it appears that Alpharius and Omegon look to be heading in different directions, he (Abnett) said he was looking forward to exploring that more. He was asked if the AL were traitor or loyalist. His answer was "Both".


Shame that they don't get a devoted book since the Alpha Legion deserve several, but glad to know that the gradually increasing divide between Alpharius (Traitor) and Omegon (Loyalist) will be explored. (Just my opinion of which is which.)



Khorne's Fist said:


> EDIT: We also saw a slide of a book cover with the Khan front and centre on the command deck of a star ship surrounded by his sons. There was no title for the book or mention of a date for it, it seemed to be just thrown in as a teaser. Abnett also revealed that the WS are his favourite legion, so it may not be a stretch to say it will be him writing it.


Dan Abnett and White Scars?? Cool, but I did like Chris Wraight's depiction of them and especially how he described Jaghatai Khan.



Khorne's Fist said:


> EDIT: I asked McNeill if, at that first meeting to discuss starting the HH series, was there ever a set number of books in mind. He said there was a rough idea of about 25 books, but they never really set a definite number. The success of the first three books really surprised everyone involved, and that led them to decide to just keep going till it was done and they'd covered all the important stuff, basically.


Good to know. I don't think working to a set number is conducive to quality, better just to give us as much as is needed until everything has been covered.



Khorne's Fist said:


> EDIT: McNeill was asked a two part question, first if he would be revisiting Uriel Ventris, and second, were there any plans to do anything further with the Daemon Primarchs. His reply was that they were both pretty much the same question. So Ventris is going to tackle a Primarch at some time in the future.


Awesome.



Khorne's Fist said:


> EDIT: There will be more Iron Snakes in various books. They will feature in _Warmaster_, they will be getting a SM battles book, which he said will tie in with a GG novel. The SM Battles book will cover the overall battle for a given planet as a whole, while the GG book will cover the part that they play in it. He said the Phantine might also show up there as well. He also said he has another novel about them in mind, and may start writing a chapter a month, and that they may do something similar to what they did with _Phalanx_, release it in a serialized format, and then the book as a whole when it's complete. The BL shepherd sitting there nodded encouragingly at this comment.


Uninterested in the Phantine as I said above, but Iron Snakes are awesome. Mayhap we might see Priad and Damocles Squad again?? I really hope so.



Khorne's Fist said:


> EDIT: Seemingly the writers have been told they were having too much fun throwing in teasers about the missing legions, and had to reign that in. Oh well.


Pity, but we've gotten enough teasers for plenty of cool scenarios involving the Lost Legions.



Khorne's Fist said:


> EDIT:Abnett also said he never had any intention of going back to Eisenhorn after his trilogy, because he didn't invent the character, and wanted his fate to be decided by Inquisitor players, seeing as that was why he was developed in the first place. He started Ravenor with the intention of making it an ongoing series, but half way through the second book realised that it would only be a trilogy as well.


Well i'm glad he did, _Pariah_ is awesome and I love the direction the series has taken.


LotN


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

The Iron Snakes of Ithaca return! Yes! Fist, you just made me evening!



Khorne's Fist said:


> I thought the same when they mentioned that number, but he went on to explain that at the start of the battle the planet is bombarded and becomes an irradiated waste land, and thereafter any fighting has to be done from the inside of an armoured vehicle. While it may not be ten million battle tanks, there will be that number of AFVs of one sort or another. Seemingly it's an effort to show the Imperial Army played a huge part in the Heresy as well. I will say by the end of his explanation I was convinced. Overall, after reading the likes of_ Crimson Fist_ and more recently _Ahriman:Exile_, and listening to him speak about his work, I have high hopes for John French.


I like John French's work as well, and I do have faith in him. Also, I'm willing to admit that a large part of my problem with ten million vehicles just comes to my own level of suspension of disbelief, which is in turn informed by my experiences with the military.

What I mean by that is, yes, a lot of what informs the 30k/40k milieu is anachronistic. But it's plausibly anachronistic in the sense that the developers, authors, etc., have _always_ told us that (for instance) personal armor in many cases at least matches guns in a way that exceeds our level of technology.

What they _haven't_ done, though, is offer the same argument for tanks versus everything else. On the grandest level, for instance, massed armored formations are patently stupid when the enemy controls the orbit. As recently seen in 'Mark of Calth, a single starship/orbital platform can annihilate the area that an armored brigade would occupy within minutes (if not seconds). On a smaller scale of warfare, a tank is still simply a slower, more vulnerable, and less capable version of a Thunderhawk - of which a Legion would have _thousands._

Still, I can see why the poor Tallarns - whose planet is about to be ravaged by the Iron Warriors - would stick with their tanks. Unless they spent the entire Great Crusade thinking it's a great idea to develop subterranean realms that wouldn't be affected by the surface being obliterated, they're screwed. What else are they going to do, though? Give up? No.

It's how the _other_ side is portrayed that disappoints me. Why are they opting to wage a war they don't need to? If ground warfare becomes truly necessary, _Titans_ are the final solution. It's not even close. The balance is only swayed when certain specialized variants of super-heavies enter the fray. But again, it comes down to ground warfare not existing in a vacuum, as if nothing else was a factor. What idiot commander would sit idly in orbit while super-heavies roll out for combat in numbers great enough to actually contest Titan Legios?

"Ten million tanks" thus becomes just a number to awe the reader. Once you start thinking about it, though, it's a pointless number and a silly statistic. Are the Tallarns massing millions of tanks in one place? Of course not. Thirty seconds of common sense would tell you that such an area would be the size of a small nation. They'd have no way to move, much less get supplied. Maybe a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of them could fight at one time. 

Are they spread across an entire world, as would make more sense? What do the Iron Warriors care? They're in orbit. They can send their forces whereever they want. They should _hope_ the enemy is stupid enough to parade their tanks in the open. They can either annihilate them with batteries capable of destroying whole cities, or they can direct overwhelming numbers of attack craft (Thunderhawks, etc.) against them.

Again, I hope John French has an ace up his sleeve. Otherwise, this is going to be nothing more than a pointless exercise in anachronism... _for the sake of anachronism._

Sorry about the rant. I know this just boils down to opinion.



Lord of the Night said:


> Interesting, I think that the Fenrisian Wolves are the souls of dead Space Wolves and other Fenrisians who have returned to watch over their planet. And they take the form of something familiar to them.


It's neither here nor there, but my assumption always lay with the author telling us that the earliest settlers of Fenris underwent gene-modification to help them survive there. I wonder if that modification didn't lead to rampant mutation for which the endstate was becoming a wolf... By extension, the Canis Helix does the same - hence the Wulfen...



> Already knew this from ADB's blog but I do hope that Grimaldus can save the Celestial Lions. And more Andrej is definitely a thing that makes me happy too.


I'm right there with you, LotN! 

Cheers,
P.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Lord of the Night said:


> Interesting, I think that the Fenrisian Wolves are the souls of dead Space Wolves and other Fenrisians who have returned to watch over their planet. And they take the form of something familiar to them.


This never washed with me. It's hinted in the HH books and the codex that animals were genetically modified or cross bred with native species to survive. So while they look like wolves, it's simply that they are now genetically so far from a Terran wolf they are no longer wolves. Besides, the theory that they are spirits would almost mean that every time a SW gets killed, a new wolf just pops into existence on Fenris rather than being vorn and bred the old fashioned way. But this is a discussion for another thread.



Lord of the Night said:


> I do hope that Grimaldus can save the Celestial Lions.


Nope, they get it pretty bad. ADB was kinda laughing about it with French. They're fucked.:hang1:



Lord of the Night said:


> A Traitor Legion definitely, but which one??


I don't think so. He said that most of the book would take place on Macragge, so I reckon it will be a faction of one of the other loyalists. Because of the Ruin Storm Guilliman has no clue what is going on elsewhere in the galaxy. He doesn't know if the Emperor is alive or dead, if Terra stills stands, and he needs to decide if he is going to try and consolidate and reinforce what he still holds of the 500 worlds, or take the fight to the enemy. 



Lord of the Night said:


> Mayhap we might see Priad and Damocles Squad again??


Yep, he mentioned Damocles by name.



Phoebus said:


> my assumption always lay with the author telling us that the earliest settlers of Fenris underwent gene-modification to help them survive there. I wonder if that modification didn't lead to rampant mutation for which the endstate was becoming a wolf... By extension, the Canis Helix does the same - hence the Wulfen...


I've never seen it written or even hinted anywhere that humans underwent any sort of genetic manipulation to survive. I really don't see why a planet that is so inimical to human survival would be settled in the first place. It's not as if it has a wealth of resources that would make it worth the effort of modifying them. Humans are resilient, and we only need look at our modern world to see that we can survive in any kind of climate. Animals however, if not native to an environment, are not as tough, and definitely needed some sort of help. But, again, that's for another thread.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Fist, check out the first eight pages of Chapter Seven, 'A Thousand Sons'. Well, the first eight pages in the e-book version, at least.

It's the type of innuendo that's so prevalent in the series as a whole, but Magnus certainly seems to be pointing his finger at a pretty blatant direction. :wink:


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> This never washed with me. It's hinted in the HH books and the codex that animals were genetically modified or cross bred with native species to survive. So while they look like wolves, it's simply that they are now genetically so far from a Terran wolf they are no longer wolves. Besides, the theory that they are spirits would almost mean that every time a SW gets killed, a new wolf just pops into existence on Fenris rather than being vorn and bred the old fashioned way. But this is a discussion for another thread.


Or they are reborn as the Fenrisian Wolves, Wolves that are not Wolves. That's what I think. The idea that they are not Wolves in just a genetic sense seems too mundane for Magnus to take an interest in it, or for it to be worth all the mystery behind it.



Khorne's Fist said:


> Nope, they get it pretty bad. ADB was kinda laughing about it with French. They're fucked.:hang1:


Curse them both!! Now excuse me while I shed some tears for the Celestial Lions, may they rest in peace. 


LotN


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

At any rate, the genetics are not necessarily what Magnus takes interest in. Rather, it's the process, the intent behind it, and the apparent need to make it secret as time has passed.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

Thanks for the back brief mate, lots of good intel you got for us, I'd rep you but gots to spread some love first!!


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> EDIT: We also saw a slide of a book cover with the Khan front and centre on the command deck of a star ship surrounded by his sons. There was no title for the book or mention of a date for it, it seemed to be just thrown in as a teaser. Abnett also revealed that the WS are his favourite legion, so it may not be a stretch to say it will be him writing it.


First of all, thanks a lot for this information mate. You could've kept this all to yourself but you chose to share it on Heresy. Good stuff, much appreciated. 

I would be totally cool if either Abnett or Wraight does it, but according to what's been posted on another forum, it looks like it'll be Chris. I think Brotherhood of the Storm is one of the best legion culture works out there so I'm really excited to see what Chris does with a full novel 



> It is a void battle at Chondax between SW,WS and AL. Thats 100 % right and it is written by Chris Wright. Release window for it - late winter -early spring 2014. Still too long to wait, and it is sad
> 
> - No this is not a limited edition - it is a usual novel - it would be released as enchanced ebook and hardback at february-april 2014, with usual ebook and softback to follow at august 2014. My sources are Chris Wright and Laurie Goulding (i think - Chris wouldnt lie)


As for Fenrisian wolves, isn't the most well-known explanation...the original colonists practiced genetic experimentation on themselves and ended up transforming themselves into wolf-like creatures?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

That's what I thought, too! Also, ditto on the praise everyone else is offering Khorne's Fist. It's really nice of you, man, especially for those of us who had no chance of being there!


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Indeed. Thanks Khorne's Fist, this information is much appreciated especially as BL haven't been giving out release information like they used to.


LotN


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Cheers for the titbits _Fist_, much appreciated. _The Unremembered Empire_ sounds increasingly promising. And I'm glad we're returning to Horus with _The Vengeful Spirit_, I hope that Mcneill is able to produce a work similar to _Fulgrim_ or _A Thousand Sons_ in quality though, rather than _The Outcast Dead_ or _Angel Exterminatus_ type quality. That is a concern for me currently. Wraight doing the Chondax ambush also sounds promising. 

I totally agree with _P_ concerning the _ten million_ tanks, a ridiculous figure. I hope it is pulled off in a manageable way because the scepticism is already raging. Assuming its roughly half per side, that means the Iron Warriors (if their entire Legion was present - which it wouldn't have been) had roughly 50 tanks for every Space Marine... lol.



Lord of the Night said:


> Awesome, with the Blood Angels obviously in it as well that leaves only the 7th Legion a mystery. A Traitor Legion definitely, but which one??


It will be the Death Guard according to one of our own. :laugh:



Lord of the Night said:


> _The Reflection Crack'd_ told us that already.


Not definitively.



Lord of the Night said:


> Shame that they don't get a devoted book since the Alpha Legion deserve several, but glad to know that the gradually increasing divide between Alpharius (Traitor) and Omegon (Loyalist) will be explored. (Just my opinion of which is which.)


I got the impression it was more Omegon (traitor) and Alpharius (loyalist). We'll see though. Omegon's character is certainly more edgy and violent, and his actions (and internal dialogue) from _The Serpent Beneath_ and _Deliverance Lost_ were early indicators for me. I don't know if we'll ever know for certain though, especially considering they're both interchangeable.



Lord of the Night said:


> Interesting, I think that the Fenrisian Wolves are the souls of dead Space Wolves and other Fenrisians who have returned to watch over their planet. And they take the form of something familiar to them.


The impression I got from _Prospero Burns_ (especially as they talk about the original Fenrisian colonists in the same respect) was the 'genetic manipulation of the early colonists-theory' as _Monty_ said.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I got the impression it was more Omegon (traitor) and Alpharius (loyalist). We'll see though. Omegon's character is certainly more edgy and violent, and his actions (and internal dialogue) from _The Serpent Beneath_ and _Deliverance Lost_ were early indicators for me. I don't know if we'll ever know for certain though, especially considering they're both interchangeable.


Well, if you want to take the super confusing angle, Alpharius is trying to be the ultimate loyalist by becoming a traitor... whereas Omegon is perhaps becoming the ultimate traitor... by switching back to being a loyalist. :wink:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Well, if you want to take the super confusing angle, Alpharius is trying to be the ultimate loyalist by becoming a traitor... whereas Omegon is perhaps becoming the ultimate traitor... by switching back to being a loyalist. :wink:


Makes sense. :laugh:


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

\They will feature in Warmaster, they will be getting a SM battles book, which he said will tie in with a GG novel. The SM Battles book will cover the overall battle for a given planet as a whole, while the GG book will cover the part that they play in it\ 
- already heard that 3 months ago at BL live 2013 - you missed that. We have several threads about that, with facts -and the planet called Urdesh and its is besieged with forces of Anarch Sek. And Titanicus heroes would be shown - Red Fury - not Phantine


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

\We also saw a slide of a book cover with the Khan front and centre on the command deck of a star ship surrounded by his sons. There was no title for the book or mention of a date for it, it seemed to be just thrown in as a teaser. Abnett also revealed that the WS are his favourite legion, so it may not be a stretch to say it will be him writing it.\
- the book is written by C.Wraight, not Dan Abnett, about White Scars and Space Wolves vs Alpha Legion - it will be released March 2014


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

\Abnett has finished Unremembered Empire, and Astartes from no fewer than 7 legions will feature\
- yeah yeah i have written something about it - havent i, Angel of Blood?


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

\divide between Alpharius (Traitor) and Omegon (Loyalist) will be explored\ - everything is vise verca
:biggrin:


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

Anyway - very informative and cool report you gave us from Dublin - thanks man


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

@_Anakwanar_: You have the ability to put all of your text in a single post, and to use the quotation function to make reading your post(s) easier for the rest of us.



Anakwanar said:


> \divide between Alpharius (Traitor) and Omegon (Loyalist) will be explored\ - everything is vise verca
> :biggrin:


Want to elaborate?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Anakwanar said:


> \Abnett has finished Unremembered Empire, and Astartes from no fewer than 7 legions will feature\
> - yeah yeah i have written something about it - havent i, Angel of Blood?


Oh fuck off, you insufferable smug twat.


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

Tell me Angel of Blood why are you soo upset and angry? We all have our own opinion thats that. And you are upset, that i was right? Pretty petty grievence you do have. 
To Child-of-the-Emperor - it was elaborated in another thread. All actions done by Omegon really provide more help to Horus, especially with WS - the information flow that they has received after being in the dark will leave them only 1 choice - to choose a side - and Horus wanted long ago for WS to choose his side.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Anakwanar said:


> Tell me Angel of Blood why are you soo upset and angry? We all have our own opinion thats that. And you are upset, that i was right? Pretty petty grievence you do have.
> To Child-of-the-Emperor - it was elaborated in another thread. All actions done by Omegon really provide more help to Horus, especially with WS - the information flow that they has received after being in the dark will leave them only 1 choice - to choose a side - and Horus wanted long ago for WS to choose his side.


I couldn't give two fucks whether you are right or not. No, my problem with you, is that in that other thread, you went and spouted off a load of gen, citing no sources, when asked for your source, you initially said rather arrogantly, that 'i dont need to prove you anythin'. That kind of attitude never sits well with people. Even after confirming where you got your information, you seemed to not care in the slightest about listing major spoilers.

But the real problem? Is your overwhelming air of smugness and attitude. Not only from the above example, but from the way you keep popping up in threads and saying what amounts to schoolyard 'I told you so' or making little snide references to other posts or trying to impress upon everyone that you are right, with arrogant little quotes such as 'if you have a good memory, you will remember that i was right.' or 'We will see, who is right - this autumn.'. In the very reply I quoted, your post was utterly redundant and said nothing other than words to the effect of 'I told you so AoB.' pretty snide, pretty rude, very childish. 

And you wonder why I tell you to fuck off after a post like that. And from a few pm's I've sent out to the other more senior and older members of this board, they agree. You're not setting yourself a good rep at all, which on a board like Heresy, is quite an achievement.


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

I was simply putting my opinions - not smugging. Strange but i love the lore and Warhammer soo hard that i sometimes forget about the way - other people saw it. Ok, in that i see my mistakes - and stand corrected. I will try to improve my behavior in the future. At least ill promise to try :training:
I always thought that people love spoilers, seems it was a wrong opinion. I will never provide them anymore, until someone asked. If you want spoilers about whats happened in Vulkan Lives right it here and i will answer. If not i will not spoil anything to you or anyone else here.


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## Sequere_me_in_Tenebras (Nov 11, 2012)

Anakwanar said:


> I was simply putting my opinions - not smugging. Strange but i love the lore and Warhammer soo hard that i sometimes forget about the way - other people saw it. Ok, in that i see my mistakes - and stand corrected. I will try to improve my behavior in the future. At least ill promise to try :training:
> I always thought that people love spoilers, seems it was a wrong opinion. I will never provide them anymore, until someone asked. If you want spoilers about whats happened in Vulkan Lives right it here and i will answer. If not i will not spoil anything to you or anyone else here.


There's a difference between having a opinion and making a statement - especially when the majority that you've written has little or no basis (other than you're opinion).

Thanks for the information Khorne's Fist, good of you to share it. Looking forward to seeing what Dan Abnett produces with _Unremembered Empire_. Seven Legions? No wonder Dan mentioned in a video it's a tricky book to write.

So no more novels dedicated to Legions? Not sure how I feel about that. Anyone got opinions on that?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Sequere_me_in_Tenebras said:


> So no more novels dedicated to Legions? Not sure how I feel about that. Anyone got opinions on that?


To be honest, we never had that many to begin with. I can appreciate that some (most?) Legion books would be written for the primary purpose of portraying that one Legion which isn't worthwhile I don't think. Look at the general reception of _Descent of Angels_ for example.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> But the real problem? Is your overwhelming air of smugness and attitude. Not only from the above example, but from the way you keep popping up in threads and saying what amounts to schoolyard 'I told you so' or making little snide references to other posts or trying to impress upon everyone that you are right, with arrogant little quotes such as 'if you have a good memory, you will remember that i was right.' or 'We will see, who is right - this autumn.'. In the very reply I quoted, your post was utterly redundant and said nothing other than words to the effect of 'I told you so AoB.' pretty snide, pretty rude, very childish.


I gotta say I agree somewhat. You appeared on the boards in the last few days throwing around an attitude of "I'm right and you ignorant people will realise this in time". It takes a lot get peoples backs up on here, but you've managed to do it very well in the space of a weekend. Also, be aware there is an EDIT button on the bottom right of your post. It saves multi posting, yet another thing that annoys members, especially when you're doing it to just add a one line comment of no real substance.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Look at the general reception of Descent of Angels for example.


Not a great example to be fair. It's one of the most badly written books BL has ever produced. The story could have been so good if it had been left in the hands of someone competent like Abnett or McNeill. I think even BL have acknowledged this by dint of the fact that Scanlon has done fuck all else since those books came out.


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## Sequere_me_in_Tenebras (Nov 11, 2012)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> To be honest, we never had that many to begin with. I can appreciate that some (most?) Legion books would be written for the primary purpose of portraying that one Legion which isn't worthwhile I don't think. Look at the general reception of _Descent of Angels_ for example.


That's very true. Looking back I think only "Horus Rising" was the only other novel to be purely dedicated to a specific Legion. Then we had Blood Angels (well in some context), Emperor's Children and all the other traitor Legions mixed in.

There has been grumbles that other certain novels have focused to heavily on certain Legions. From a fans perspective it helps appease those who like other Legions. 

I'm curious to see if more survivors from Isstvan V have made their way off-planet to Ultramar. Didn't Khorne's Fist mention Salamanders, Iron Hands etc, in his original post? Will be interesting.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Sequere_me_in_Tenebras said:


> That's very true. Looking back I think only "Horus Rising" was the only other novel to be purely dedicated to a specific Legion. Then we had Blood Angels (well in some context), Emperor's Children and all the other traitor Legions mixed in.
> 
> There has been grumbles that other certain novels have focused to heavily on certain Legions. From a fans perspective it helps appease those who like other Legions.
> 
> I'm curious to see if more survivors from Isstvan V have made their way off-planet to Ultramar. Didn't Khorne's Fist mention Salamanders, Iron Hands etc, in his original post? Will be interesting.


But even then, _Horus Rising_ has chapters dedicated to Tarvitz and the Emperors Children. I guess _False Gods_ is pretty much entirely the Sons of Horus with a bit of two from Magnus and Erebus, even then though, whilst part of the very good opening trilogy, I still wouldn't say it was stellar by any means. _Descent of Angels_ and _Fallen Angels_ are both pretty poor. _Fear to Tread_ is the worst novel in the series. 

The only two singular Legion novels that are good from a look at the series are, _A Thousand Sons_, which though featuring the Wolves quite a lot, is still pretty much a XV Legion only book. _Prospero Burns_ and _The First Heretic_. All three are truly excellent and are amongst my favourite novels from the series. But out of so many novels, that's just three that feature almost exclusively one legion and are actually good. The other amazing novels are a mix, _Betrayer_ and _Know No Fear_ for example. Or in _Legion's_ case.....is just _Legion_ and in it's own class.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> To be honest, we never had that many to begin with. I can appreciate that some (most?) Legion books would be written for the primary purpose of portraying that one Legion which isn't worthwhile I don't think. Look at the general reception of _Descent of Angels_ for example.


Yes, but was that a case of the format (a book dedicated to a Legion) not working, or of the novel itself being... less than optimal?

My problem, for instance, had to do with the fact that the Caliban we got to see seemed to be little more than a generic feudal society ruled over a Knights Templar-ish order of warriors. That there was little of Caliban the planet that seemed like an actual Death World. Most importantly, though, my problem with the novel was that the first two thirds of the plot didn't inform the last third... and that, in the name of the themes of secrecy, the author ended up leaving me disconnected from his story. It felt like a very disjointed work, overall.

Something that occurs to me is that 'Horus Rising', 'False Gods', and 'Galaxy in Flames' weren't just novels about a Legion, obviously. They were about a Primarch, his decisions, and the effect they had on the protagonist. The fact that we get to know so much about the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus comes down to being there by association and good writing. Ultimately, the novels were about a story arc, though. The same can be said of 'Flight of the Eisenstein', 'Fulgrim', 'Legion', 'A Thousand Sons', 'The First Heretic', 'Prospero Burns', 'Deliverance', 'Know No Fear', 'Fear to Tread', 'Angel Exterminatus', and 'Betrayer'. The difference between all those (though I admittedly did not enjoy all of them to the same degree) and 'Descent of Angels' is that the latter was overwhelmingly, shall we say, _not embraced to varying degrees_... and for valid reasons, I think.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> The story could have been so good if it had been left in the hands of someone competent like Abnett or *McNeill*.


I must protest. The only good work he has ever produced is ATS. Everything else by him has been garbage


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Opinions will vary, I suppose. I'm by no means an authority on taste, nor do I pretend to represent the consensus of this forum... but I thought that 'False Gods' and 'Fulgrim' were both positively received by a majority of this community's posters. 'Mechanicum' may not have been my favorite read, but I think it's safe to say it was far from "garbage".

That leaves us, with what? 'A Thousand Sons' (which, it's safe to say, was a popular read), 'The Outcast Dead' (more or less universally unpopular), and 'Angel Exterminatus' (which appeared to get a mixed bag of responses).


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Yes, but was that a case of the format (a book dedicated to a Legion) not working, or of the novel itself being... less than optimal?
> 
> My problem, for instance, had to deal with the fact that the Caliban we got to see seemed to be little more than a generic feudal society ruled over a Knights Templar-ish order of warriors. That there was little of Caliban the planet that seemed like an actual Death World. Most importantly, though, my problem with the novel was that the first two thirds of the plot didn't inform the last third... and that, in the name of the themes of secrecy, the author ended up leaving me disconnected from his story. It felt like a very disjointed work, overall.
> 
> Something that occurs to me is that 'Horus Rising', 'False Gods', and 'Galaxy in Flames' weren't just novels about a Legion, obviously. They were about a Primarch, his decisions, and the effect they had on the protagonist. The fact that we get to know so much about the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus comes down to being there by association and good writing. Ultimately, the novels were about a story arc, though. The same can be said of 'Flight of the Eisenstein', 'Fulgrim', 'Legion', 'A Thousand Sons', 'The First Heretic', 'Prospero Burns', 'Deliverance', 'Know No Fear', 'Fear to Tread', 'Angel Exterminatus', and 'Betrayer'. The difference between all those (though I admittedly did not enjoy all of them to the same degree) and 'Descent of Angels' is that the latter was overwhelmingly, shall we say, _not embraced to varying degrees_... and for valid reasons, I think.


I take the point, bad example!

I guess what I was trying to say was that, well, we haven't had that many Legion-dedicated books anyway. As _P_ said, the opening trilogy wasn't truly about the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus, it was about Horus himself and it fulfilled the necessary story-arc of his fall. I never got the impression that the authors were releasing novels just for the sake of telling us what that particular Legion was up to, or the origins of their role in the Heresy. Only a couple of novels could fit that description in my eyes.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Yes, exactly. Thank you, CotE, that was far more succinct. I tend to go on rants sometimes! :biggrin:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Also, with _The Unremembered Empire_, _Vengeful Spirit_ and _[unnamed Chondax novel]_ being released in the near-future, does anyone else feel like we are actually making some progress in terms of the overall plot and the slow rumble towards the Siege of Terra? The Imperial Legions would have made their decisions and either returned to Terra or chosen their alternative path by then, with more insight into Horus and his Legion it sounds like his end-game will come into view, and one of the last major (known) conflicts of the saga will play out in the Chondax Ambush. If all three of those novels are strong (I think a lot is riding on Mcneill's _Vengeful Spirit_) then we'll be in a good place I think. I still think one of my most anticipated moments is knowing who saved the skins of the Space Wolves...



Phoebus said:


> Yes, exactly. Thank you, CotE, that was far more succinct. I tend to go on rants sometimes! :biggrin:


Please keep it up, your rants are almost always enjoyable. :wink:


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## The Scion of Chemos (May 24, 2013)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Also, with _The Unremembered Empire_, _Vengeful Spirit_ and _[unnamed Chondax novel]_ being released in the near-future, does anyone else feel like we are actually making some progress in terms of the overall plot and the slow rumble towards the Siege of Terra? The Imperial Legions would have made their decisions and either returned to Terra or chosen their alternative path by then, with more insight into Horus and his Legion it sounds like his end-game will come into view, and one of the last major (known) conflicts of the saga will play out in the Chondax Ambush. If all three of those novels are strong (I think a lot is riding on Mcneill's _Vengeful Spirit_) then we'll be in a good place I think. I still think one of my most anticipated moments is knowing who saved the skins of the Space Wolves...
> 
> 
> 
> Please keep it up, your rants are almost always enjoyable. :wink:




I definitely agree with your statement about "Vengeful Spirit", though I have been a fan of all of Mcneill's work thus far, and I have high hopes!


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

My thoughts are, that judging by the excerpt McNeil read at BL live, Vengeful spirit would not give us some big story driving moments but a story about the depredations of Chaos and Horus fall to further insanity. I havent been a big fan of Mcneill's work thus far (he is a longggg way from Abnett or Bowden) i doesnt expect much of this book at all. 
Chondax on the other way - will show us the position the Wolves are in, and will spotlight the WS at last. And before them we will have an awesome Unremembered empire, that will severe some knots once and for all.
You see guys, iam trying not to smugg. I will behave, ill promise =)


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Anakwanar said:


> My thoughts are, that judging by the excerpt McNeil read at BL live, Vengeful spirit would not give us some big story driving moments but a story about the depredations of Chaos and Horus fall to further insanity.


If that is the case, that is exactly what is needed. We haven't had an insight into how or why Horus readily embraced warp-craft, forged daemonic pacts and accepted the blessings of the gods. It is quite clear that Horus is, to some degree, bat-shit insane by the time of the final duel. How did he reach that point? That is what needs expanding most of all in regards to his plot-line.

It is also important to tackle the issue of how the Sons of Horus were transformed from being Space Marines, to _Chaos_ Space Marines by the time of the Siege of Terra. Did they accept the warp-craft, worship, daemonic possession and other unnatural phenomena that became rife within their Legion? Were there any doubters? Were there any further schisms? Was it a gradual acceptance? Did many start worshipping Horus as a god? Did any begin worshipping the Chaos Gods openly? How was the information concerning Chaos spread, via Chaplains/Dark Apostles? The Lodges? Erebus? Librarians? These are all questions that need answering.

Even from the old lore we have no insight into Daemonic-Horus other than when he finally faces the Emperor. In the series we have seen him start to break-away from Erebus and Lorgar and start to determine his own path. But we haven't seen his descent into madness, Chaos dedication, and his accumulation of power that ends up rivalling the Emperor's. I would like to see him exploring the nature of Chaos, his belief that the gods are tools for his own use and nothing more, him arrogantly making numerous daemonic pacts, accumulating the power to challenge the Emperor psychically, the perversion of his ambition and his general descent into madness. 

We also have the development of Aximand's and Abaddon's plots to look forward to. If Mcneill pulls this off (of which I am doubtful) we could be on for a winner.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Even from the old lore we have no insight into Daemonic-Horus other than when he finally faces the Emperor.


This has reminded me of something else. McNeill did speak about the nature of Horus after his betrayal. He was at pains to say that he is not possessed by a demon like Fulgrim was, as that plot device was just too easy to use. It would have pretty much exonerated Horus of any personal responsibility for the Heresy, and perhaps made him a sympathetic character, when in fact he is very much a willing bad guy. It also takes away the the chance of him having that "Oh my God, what have I done?" moment of clarity and redemption right at the very end.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I still think one of my most anticipated moments is knowing who saved the skins of the Space Wolves...


My moneys still on Alpharius/Omegon or the Lion.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> My moneys still on Alpharius/Omegon or the Lion.


Alpharius/Omegon could be worked as a good twist. Although the Space Wolves receiving help from a "unexpected quarter" was written in long before _Legion_ was released and Omegon revealed (unless we take into account that Abnett once claimed Alan Merrett had always intended Alpharius to be a twin).

The Lion would be, in my opinion, underwhelming. The phrase always made it sound like something wholly unexpected rather than just another Legion turning up randomly. Might have just been my take on it though.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Alpharius/Omegon could be worked as a good twist. Although the Space Wolves receiving help from a "unexpected quarter" was written in long before _Legion_ was released and Omegon revealed (unless we take into account that Abnett once claimed Alan Merrett had always intended Alpharius to be a twin).
> 
> The Lion would be, in my opinion, underwhelming. The phrase always made it sound like something wholly unexpected rather than just another Legion turning up randomly. Might have just been my take on it though.


I'm leaning less towards the Lion these days, since I found out the Lion was off to Ultramar. Initially, my theory was that the Lion would use the xenos device he has to jump to the Wolves aid and then that would be them both heading off to Terra together. But since he's now off to Ultramar, where it's apparently now pretty nails to escape from and also where the Blood Angels are. I now see him giving the xenos device to Sanguinius so he can return to Terra. 

Alpharius or Omegon seems more and more likely now, with the apparent divide between the twins and the BL panel saying they are both loyal and traitors. But as you said, pre-_Legion_ I never would have seen any evidence for this, and I'm not too sold on the claim they were always meant to be twins, certainly not that one faction remained loyal before the Heresy series.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> I'm leaning less towards the Lion these days, since I found out the Lion was off to Ultramar. Initially, my theory was that the Lion would use the xenos device he has to jump to the Wolves aid and then that would be them both heading off to Terra together. But since he's now off to Ultramar, where it's apparently now pretty nails to escape from and also where the Blood Angels are. I now see him giving the xenos device to Sanguinius so he can return to Terra. .


I've just checked the _CV_ and in the passage where the Emperor refers to the oncoming loyal Legions, he talks about the Space Wolves having received help from an "unexpected quarter" and then the Dark Angels' oncoming fleet very separately, which leads me to believe it won't (or wasn't intended to be) the Dark Angels.

I hope, after all the speculation, that it won't be something lame like an Imperial Army fleet or something of the sort! :wink:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I've just checked the _CV_ and in the passage where the Emperor refers to the oncoming loyal Legions, he talks about the Space Wolves having received help from an "unexpected quarter" and then the Dark Angels' oncoming fleet very separately, which leads me to believe it won't (or wasn't intended to be) the Dark Angels.
> 
> I hope, after all the speculation, that it won't be something lame like an Imperial Army fleet or something of the sort! :wink:


Indeed, needs to be something that does actually make you go 'Well fuck me, didn't expect that'. Even though I'm almost expecting it to be Alpharius/Omegon, it would still work for me. Something like the Eldar or any other Xenos race turning up wouldn't sit too well with me.


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## March of Time (Dec 4, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Indeed, needs to be something that does actually make you go 'Well fuck me, didn't expect that'. Even though I'm almost expecting it to be Alpharius/Omegon, it would still work for me. Something like the Eldar or any other Xenos race turning up wouldn't sit too well with me.


Interex


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I still hope it's the Lion (and that 'The Collected Visions' got it wrong - and there are things within that tome that have changed in both the novels and Forgeworld's Imperial Armour entry), if only so that a classic storyline - El'Jonson and Russ riding in to Terra together - can be preserved.

But that's just me!


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Phoebus said:


> I still hope it's the Lion... if only so that a classic storyline - El'Jonson and Russ riding in to Terra together - can be preserved.


Same here. It was always supposed to be the fact that these two were quickly closing in on Terra that drove Horus to go all in. The image of these two erstwhile allies riding to the rescue always appealed to me. 

The fact that Russ and the Lion were buddies at this stage also adds something to it.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> If that is the case, that is exactly what is needed. We haven't had an insight into how or why Horus readily embraced warp-craft, forged daemonic pacts and accepted the blessings of the gods. It is quite clear that Horus is, to some degree, bat-shit insane by the time of the final duel. How did he reach that point? That is what needs expanding most of all in regards to his plot-line.
> 
> It is also important to tackle the issue of how the Sons of Horus were transformed from being Space Marines, to _Chaos_ Space Marines by the time of the Siege of Terra. Did they accept the warp-craft, worship, daemonic possession and other unnatural phenomena that became rife within their Legion? Were there any doubters? Were there any further schisms? Was it a gradual acceptance? Did many start worshipping Horus as a god? Did any begin worshipping the Chaos Gods openly? How was the information concerning Chaos spread, via Chaplains/Dark Apostles? The Lodges? Erebus? Librarians? These are all questions that need answering.
> 
> ...


You raise a host of intriguing issues a novel focusing on Horus should explore and resolve...but McNeill is writing it. McNeill. 

We can only pray for another ATS and not another Angel Exterminatus 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Space Wolves having received help from an "unexpected quarter"


I'm thinking the DA would be considered unexpected because of how the Lion KOed Russ after their brawl.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I would think it's more "unexpected" because the Dark Angels had been stuck in Thramas for the better part of three years, but then are "somehow" able to miraculously bounce from place to place very swiftly.

It should be interesting to see how much time had passed since that brawl. The implication of the old fluff was that El'Jonson and Russ were friends by that point. I imagine the brawl (and the duels that followed, per the old fluff) occurred sometime after 'Descent of Angels' and before 'Fallen Angels'.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed. As I've said numerous times in the past, in other threads. I'm always still holding out for the Lion and the Wolf to join forces and make for Terra together. The symbolism is just too good to miss out on and was just a generally brilliant bit of lore.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Here's the WS cover I was talking about. Just went up on fb. Interesting that the Khan seems to be talking to a tech priest on the hololith. Nice to see some more Mechanicum if they do appear.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Here's the WS cover I was talking about. Just went up on fb. Interesting that the Khan seems to be talking to a tech priest on the hololith. Nice to see some more Mechanicum if they do appear.


Maybe I've taken your wording wrong, but that techpriest is operating the hololith, not broadcasting from it onto the ship. I imagine it is the tech-priest assigned to that ship.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> Maybe I've taken your wording wrong, but that techpriest is operating the hololith, not broadcasting from it onto the ship. I imagine it is the tech-priest assigned to that ship.


Ah yes. I see that now that you mention it. My first glance gave me the impression that it looked like the priest was an image on the screen, but now I see he's behind it.:blush:


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

What‘s going on behind the Khan? Did everyone go full Alpharius or are they just swinging their fists and pointing at each other for the sake of it?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Doelago said:


> What‘s going on behind the Khan? Did everyone go full Alpharius or are they just swinging their fists and pointing at each other for the sake of it?


Spoilers from _Brotherhood of the Storm_ and _Garro: Sword of Truth_.



From both the novella and the audio book, we know that there are traitors within the White Scars, corrupted/loyal to Horus, through the lodges. I imagine this may very well be them showing their true allegiance.


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## Khyzer (Dec 22, 2012)

Angel of Blood said:


> Spoilers from _Brotherhood of the Storm_ and _Garro: Sword of Truth_.
> 
> 
> 
> From both the novella and the audio book, we know that there are traitors within the White Scars, corrupted/loyal to Horus, through the lodges. I imagine this may very well be them showing their true allegiance.


It has been awhile since I read the novella _Brotherhood of the Storm_ and I do not currently have it chance to grab it, but are you referring to



The divide between the Chogoris raised White Scars and the Terra raised White Scars?


I actually can't even remember how the story ended now that I think about it... Dammit I need to pay attention more closely, its all blending together lol...


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Khyzer said:


> It has been awhile since I read the novella _Brotherhood of the Storm_ and I do not currently have it chance to grab it, but are you referring to
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Um essentially yeah, though more to it than that. After the final battle is over, Shiban asks Torghun(the Terran captain), what is next for him. To which the following is said.



> Torgun looked at me strangely then, as if trying to decide whether to tell me something important. I remembered how he had looked during our first conversation, when he had struggled to explain his brotherhood's name and customs. It was much the same then.
> 'I can't say,' was all he told me.


Now we all know 'I can't say', it the widely used phrase of the lodges, the lodges being one of the primary ways the Word Bearers and others brought other legions onto the side of Horus. So we can infer that Torghun is a lodge member and from the way he looked at Shiban, it looks pretty clear that he's likely on the side of Horus and was on the verge of bringing the subject up with Shiban. Whilst this isn't conclusive by any means, further evidence is brought up by the earlier mention of a White Scar named Hakim, in Torghuns company. In _Sword of Truth_, Hakim and his men are revealed to be traitors, and a lodge medal is found amongst his possessions. The connections are obviously far too much to be mere co-incidence. Torghun is a traitor, as are a lot(if not all) of his company, I'm willing to bet. Whose to say how many other traitors lie within the V Legion.

If you remember, Horus also believed the Khan and his legion would join him in his rebellion. Though he was proved wrong with Jaghatai and the majority of his legion, he wasn't completely wrong.


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## Khyzer (Dec 22, 2012)

Wish I had the recall of some of you guys, would be scoring A's on all my finals lol. All I had to do was read the first few words and it all came rolling back in. Ya I totally remember the lodge reference now. Surprised the lodge turned a terran born company, I always figured they would be the hardest to turn around. Granted I guess they may feel abandoned by the Emperor just like Horus was supposedly tempted.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> From both the novella and the audio book, we know that there are traitors within the White Scars, corrupted/loyal to Horus, through the lodges. I imagine this may very well be them showing their true allegiance.




Or accusing one another of being allied to Horus.


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