# chaos space marine 4th ed to 5th ed



## Woodzee316 (Sep 11, 2010)

hey guys

just wondering is there much difference from the 4th ed to the 5th ed.
the reason i'm asking is because i can get a cheap cpoy of the codex but the picture on the front is different from the cover picture on the new one at the GW store so if anyone knows the difference then i would like to know.

i was thinking about having a chaos space marine army as my second army as i play orks. and i don't want to shell out big bucks for the new codex if i don't need to. i read some stuff online but not really convincing so thought i'd throw it up on here.

anyway thanks guys

cheers
Rob


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## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

1 - There is not 5th edition one (yet)
2 - you probbaly have the 3rd edition one there instead. 

A good way to tell is if it's good....it's the 3rd


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Does the cover look like this?

http://littleplasticmen.net/i/images/oldcodex_csm_thumb.jpg

If so, then it's the 3rd ed chaos codex. I'm not sure what this "4th ed chaos codex" is, because to my knowledge no such shitty 'dex exists :laugh:.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

There were two editions of the CSM 4th ed codex.
Both completely different, mind you.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Winterous said:


> There were two editions of the CSM 4th ed codex.
> Both completely different, mind you.


You mean the 3rd ed Codex, commonly referred to a 3rd Ed and 3.5 Ed.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

If I were you I'd forget it, they're a boring and completely useless army. You either rape your opponent (Tau, for instace) or you get raped (dakkawolves, first and foremost). Though a lot depends on the terrain; if you can hide your transports on turn 1 (preferably LOS-safe, but more likely getting them a cover save), rush ahead far enough and pop smoke in turn 2, survive your transports' explosion and get into CC in turn 3 then you're probably going to win. But thats purely because your opponent didn't take some CC specialists to charge you when your transports blew up. Exactly, Thunderwolves. Or Assault Marines, whatever. Or the plasma-taxi of IG. So even if you get there there'll be enough power weapons and/or low AP guns to take you down, or at least reduce you to managable size.

If all this first-hand CSM player experience didn't discourage you, heres your shopping list for 1500 points. And don't bother going to the CSM topic, they're discussing the same list over and over again, the one list that stands a chance. Not much, but it does.

Daemon Princes; MoS, LoS, Wings - 155

Daemon Princes; MoS, LoS, Wings - 155

8xBerzerkers; Champ.w/PF&Personal Icon, Rhino - 248

8xBerzerkers; Champ.w/PF&Personal Icon, Rhino - 248

8xBerzerkers; Champ.w/PF, Rhino - 243

2xObliterators - 150

2xObliterators - 150

2xObliterators - 150

Total: 1499

Above this point level its practically auto-lose for CSM, since our Raider-Terminator combo is nothing compared to the SM version and we can't increase the volume of shooting without spending shitloads of points on marginally useful units in already occupied slots (Havocs, for instance).

Oh and we're not getting a new codex 'till 2012-2013 I think.


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## CursedUNTILLDEATH (Apr 25, 2010)

Just use the third ed one. 4th is a insult to every CSM players intellagence (eldar are not much better).
And Khorothis i never ran a list like that and i did fine. Really depends on how you use your army as CSM require a LOT of fine tunning with little room for error. Thier not a power house faction like currant ed Nids and IG (waiting to add DE to the list) but thier still playable.
And ill say it again 3th ed>4th ed


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

CursedUNTILLDEATH said:


> Just use the third ed one. 4th is a insult to every CSM players intellagence (eldar are not much better).
> And Khorothis i never ran a list like that and i did fine. Really depends on how you use your army as CSM require a LOT of fine tunning with little room for error. Thier not a power house faction like currant ed Nids and IG (waiting to add DE to the list) but thier still playable.
> And ill say it again 3th ed>4th ed


Of course 3rd ed is superior. Every CSM player who ever read it admits this. Unfortunately, the latest codex is used EVERYWHERE, except if your friends at your LGS are okay with playing against an obsolete codex. Oh and you use it at tournaments too. If you care about them, that is. Also, ivory tower.

About never using this list, its perfectly fine. You may have used the version with Plague Marines. Or even a completely different list. But not in serious games. Friendly games are irrelevant when you're judging the worth of a Codex because anyone can have fun in a metre deep pool but its not deep enough for you to learn how to swim. Which is the point in a game that involves swimming.


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

No offense to anyone that advises you otherwise in this thread, but please use the current codex. Just because you don't like the most recent version doesn't mean it isn't the one you should be using. They are _vastly_ different from each other and I have yet to play people that don't make you use the most recent codex for an army. If your friends let you, then I guess it is ok, but if you ever play in a tournament or league, you will be expected to use the most recent and should therefore play your practice games with said codex.

Also, I don't know what Khorothis is talking about, but there is plenty of firepower and capabilities to win above the 1500 point level. I have lost 2 games in the last 2 years and I have waded through all the best the Internet had to offer my opponents across a myriad of codices, new and old. Plus it shows that the army is sub-optimal anyway as Dual Lash isn't nearly the best army you could put on the field with the amount of transports and armor people are running now.

Get the latest codex, figure out what you like to play, and play that. If you want to be competitive, check out the tactics and army list sub-forums on these boards and ask for some advice. People are always more than willing to chime in.


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## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

Well, certain people just showed their ignorance, because 2x Lash Prince is no longer the optimal list by any stretch of the imagination. These little novelties called Transports kinda screw that list.

As for all these killjoys who piss and moan about the current CSM 'dex, don't listen to them. There are plenty of valid list options beyond the hurrdurrzerkersprincesoblits crap that people are spewing here, you just need a modicum of tactical ability and forethought which the majority of humanity seems to lack. The CSM 'dex is perfectly fine and i would recommend using it.

Plus, most people don't want to play against an old codex if a newer one is available. Its cool as a fun one-time thing maybe, but for the most part using the current codex is required.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Deathscythe4722 said:


> Well, certain people just showed their ignorance, because 2x Lash Prince is no longer the optimal list by any stretch of the imagination. These little novelties called Transports kinda screw that list.
> 
> As for all these killjoys who piss and moan about the current CSM 'dex, don't listen to them. There are plenty of valid list options beyond the hurrdurrzerkersprincesoblits crap that people are spewing here, you just need a modicum of tactical ability and forethought which the majority of humanity seems to lack. The CSM 'dex is perfectly fine and i would recommend using it.
> 
> Plus, most people don't want to play against an old codex if a newer one is available. Its cool as a fun one-time thing maybe, but for the most part using the current codex is required.


Not necessarly, transports, especially rhinoes are easy prey to melta guns. If one unit blows up the rhino the rest of your army is left to destroy the squad.


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## Woodzee316 (Sep 11, 2010)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Does the cover look like this?
> 
> http://littleplasticmen.net/i/images/oldcodex_csm_thumb.jpg
> 
> If so, then it's the 3rd ed chaos codex. I'm not sure what this "4th ed chaos codex" is, because to my knowledge no such shitty 'dex exists :laugh:.


yeah that is what the cover looked like so it was 3rd ed
thanks for that.

ok and thank you guys for the input into this topic
i think i'll still give them a go but i'll get the 4th ed and try and work something out with them to stay in rules confine. 
i'm kinda likin the challenge that it seems it will provide needing to work out a strategy as with my orks i don't need much of a strategy (but still use one):grin: and the minitures look good as well.

so once again thanks guys 
cheers
Rob


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## CursedUNTILLDEATH (Apr 25, 2010)

Their are a lot of differnt things that can be made to work in a CSM army, but as said before just takes some planning and tunning. 3rd ed is better written, but is not really user freindly and some units have insane prices. 4th ed is easier to use and while its defitaly not perfect isnt really as crap most say (the background really sucks though...). I would rather use 3rd but 4th is perfectly usable as well (and you dont need the Holy quartet to win). CSM requrie a degree of thought and planning but if you can do that are very enjoyable. 
I use a hybird gun line of terms, standred marines, and vindiactors and defilers. Raptors are great at nuking tanks (give them meltas and keep them in resvere) and summond deamons can stop a charge in its tracks.

PS-i got ninjed...damnit.


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## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

You are more or less 'required' to use the newest codex, to be honest.

And it is not as bad as most of the internet doomsayers claim. All it takes is to polish the gems we have, and do it well. 

The problem with the 4th ed CSM codex is that we place to much reliance in our troops to actually do the brunt of the work. If people were to go around that, and place more reliance on the killy stabby into other things, like nurglewarptimewings princes, instead of things that merely support our troops, lash&berzerkers, we can come out further ahead than otherwise claimed.

It is entirily possible to keep up to a certain extent in the current game of 40k for any armybook. Even Necrons can do it, if done right. To a lesser extent when it comes to Necrons... but that is a different story. 

All I can say is look to the Daemons and the trickery of the CSM codex. Play smart. Don't just take killy things and charge it forward. Outplay your oponent. Don't just hammer him down.


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

Khorothis said:


> Daemon Princes; MoS, LoS, Wings - 155
> 
> Daemon Princes; MoS, LoS, Wings - 155
> 
> ...


The units mean nothing if you cannot use them effectively. The quality of your army has little in common with proper generalship. Clearly you are far to shortsighted to see that.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I do Fine from Tourny/Serious Gaming point using general CSMs. 

Lash Prince 155
Lash Sorceror 125
Beserkers/Rhino (PF Champ)
CSM/Rhino (MGx2, PF Champ, IoCG) 255 
CSM/Rhino (MGx2, PF Champ, IoCG) 255 
CSM/Rhino (MGx2, PF Champ, IoCG) 255 
Vindi (DP) 145
Vindi (DP) 145
Oblits 225

Not the standard Dual Prince, Cult Troops, all Oblits list. However I pulled many wins against all types of competitive lists. Its fairly ballance on Mech and Troops. Using a single Prince and Generic CSMs. I found Lash Sorcerors usefull in transports with Zerkers or Noise Marines. Kharn makes for a good Chaos Lord. Abbaddon is the Anti-Christ of 40k, if you can afford him. All your Cult Troops kick ass. Termies, Chosen, Dreads, and Raptors if used and build certain ways can work well. Defilers, Vindis, Dakka Preds, Oblits take the HS. So that leaves what is considered RISCKY or downright Worthless units like Possesed, CSM Lords, Bikes, Havoks, and the dreaded SPAWN!!! Generic Daemons and GDs can work but not reliable and really lack luster.

All in all the recent Dex is a shame. The only sure things are the DPs, the Troops section, and the whole HS section. Everything else is a risk or not worth their points. Suks but thats how are Dex is and that is why EVERYONE just about bitches about it. Very few builds, and no real efective fluffy way to play.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Deathscythe4722 said:


> Well, certain people just showed their ignorance, because 2x Lash Prince is no longer the optimal list by any stretch of the imagination. These little novelties called Transports kinda screw that list.
> 
> As for all these killjoys who piss and moan about the current CSM 'dex, don't listen to them. There are plenty of valid list options beyond the hurrdurrzerkersprincesoblits crap that people are spewing here, you just need a modicum of tactical ability and forethought which the majority of humanity seems to lack. The CSM 'dex is perfectly fine and i would recommend using it.
> 
> Plus, most people don't want to play against an old codex if a newer one is available. Its cool as a fun one-time thing maybe, but for the most part using the current codex is required.


Say it out loud maggot if you have a problem with someone. Don't go around saying "certain people" like a wuss. Then again what am I expecting from a guy who says that transports make Lash obsolete, and doesn't point out that the REAL problem are the Rune Priests, Librarians and Inquisitors (fortunately, the latter won't apply for long). Lash has to work once and you're golden, but when both your Lashes are nullified you're boned.

You know, I actually admit that I'm a little too hard on CSM. Maybe my sour opinion is because 90% of my games are against Space Wolves and Mech Guard, with the occasional SM thrown in. Maybe its because I don't have easy games anymore since all the Tau players sold their army for SM and IG and suddenly your little LGS is filled with loyalists and you're the only CSM player who frequents the place. And no noobs here, clever players all. At least those I play with. So whenever I win (which is a fair 50% of the games) its always hard-won and I always had a lucky shot there (like when an Obliterator managed to destroy the weapons of the Manticore in turn one, but that was before my friend brought a Techpriest).

So yeah, I really need you to tell me how to play my army.



Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> The units mean nothing if you cannot use them effectively. The quality of your army has little in common with proper generalship. Clearly you are far to shortsighted to see that.


The same goes to you too.

And just so you know, this list is solid and forgiving, exactly what new players need to get the hang of the army and start seeing the flaws of the list. And you know what? I wanted to bring a roughly similar list to an 1850 point contest we're having very soon but got boned over and over by dakkawolves ('cept I had a Defiler, 3xTermies with RAC/PF, and 2x CF&CM, and a PC/HF Dreadnought). So next time I brought Bikers, Biker Lords, a Predator, Chosen, two Berzerkers and 2x2 Oblits and I mopped the floor with them. It was most likely because I have no idea how to play the game and my army, and my opponent just went full retard. Yeah, it must be it.

Oh and I am shortsighted, except you call it nearsighted when its an eye problem.  



Warlock in Training said:


> I do Fine from Tourny/Serious Gaming point using general CSMs.
> 
> Lash Prince 155
> Lash Sorceror 125
> ...


I used to run a similar list but then the new Space Wolves codex came out and suddenly, when my CSM charged the Grey Hunters I felt that the opposite is happening.  And when Logan Grimnar singlehandedly destroyed a bit more than half of my army (it was a 2000 pts match and despite the situation we both laughed our asses off). Oh and gotta love it when the Long Fangs fuck up your Vindies (this was no fun at all, however, since it was in turn 1 and he started).

Also, the last sentence says it all.


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## LordofFenris (Mar 10, 2010)

I run a completely different list. I have played 6 games and lost two. One was against Space Wolves and the other was a tank heavy IG. My list uses Typhus and Huron and is Terminator heavy, the only vehicles are tanks (dakka preds) and no, I don't run Oblits......I do just fine. Make no mistake, it took A LOT of practice to figure out how to battle with my build and I lost a lot of practice games initially. The Lash list is a good place to start, but as gen.ahab has said on many posts.....PROXY THE LIST FIRST!!!!!! If you can figure out the basics, move on to proxy-ing a build you like.


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

Khorothis said:


> The same goes to you too.
> 
> And just so you know, this list is solid and forgiving, exactly what new players need to get the hang of the army and start seeing the flaws of the list. And you know what? I wanted to bring a roughly similar list to an 1850 point contest we're having very soon but got boned over and over by dakkawolves ('cept I had a Defiler, 3xTermies with RAC/PF, and 2x CF&CM, and a PC/HF Dreadnought). So next time I brought Bikers, Biker Lords, a Predator, Chosen, two Berzerkers and 2x2 Oblits and I mopped the floor with them. It was most likely because I have no idea how to play the game and my army, and my opponent just went full retard. Yeah, it must be it.
> 
> Oh and I am shortsighted, except you call it nearsighted when its an eye problem.


Thank you for proving my point.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> Thank you for proving my point.


I'm curious, how did you know I'm nearsighted? Did you google my name and found that old pic of me on my Photobucket account? I thought if I didn't give tag options then nobody will find them but it seems I forgot about almighty google. 

And just to make it clear in case it wasn't, I'm posting with my glasses on so I actually read posts before replying.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Woodzee316 said:


> hey guys
> 
> just wondering is there much difference from the 4th ed to the 5th ed.
> the reason i'm asking is because i can get a cheap cpoy of the codex but the picture on the front is different from the cover picture on the new one at the GW store so if anyone knows the difference then i would like to know.
> ...




Ya, there's a difference.
Chaos got jailhouse-raped in 5th.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Does the cover look like this?
> 
> http://littleplasticmen.net/i/images/oldcodex_csm_thumb.jpg
> 
> If so, then it's the 3rd ed chaos codex. I'm not sure what this "4th ed chaos codex" is, because to my knowledge no such shitty 'dex exists :laugh:.


I get into this one a lot, but I maintain that this IS a 4th edition 'dex, as it hes the 4th edition layout... as opposed to the one they came out with earlier in 3rd, when they weren't writing the 4th edition rule-book.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

the best advice i can give you is play them how you want, there fun to play no matter the list you use, if your thinking about competitive games then by all means look at using the best possible list, but if not then as i said play how you want.


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

Vrykolas2k said:


> I get into this one a lot, but I maintain that this IS a 4th edition 'dex, as it hes the 4th edition layout... as opposed to the one they came out with earlier in 3rd, when they weren't writing the 4th edition rule-book.


Okay to clarify. 
Second edition chaos codex Can't find a publishing date for this one)
http://img12.nnm.ru/a/c/b/2/d/97a87af2cd969a6040eb06f040f.jpg


Third edition rules released about 1998

Third edtion Chaos codex published 1999
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/9/9a/Codex_Chaos_Space_Marines_-_3rd_Ed_Cover.jpg


New chaos codex published (3.5) 2002
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/7/72/Codex_Chaos_Space_Marines_FCover.jpg

Forth edition rules released 2004

Forth edition chaos codex published 2007
http://www.area52.com.au/images/resources/codex-chaos-space-marines.jpg

Fifth edition rules released 2008


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

Khorothis said:


> I'm curious, how did you know I'm nearsighted? Did you google my name and found that old pic of me on my Photobucket account? I thought if I didn't give tag options then nobody will find them but it seems I forgot about almighty google.
> 
> And just to make it clear in case it wasn't, I'm posting with my glasses on so I actually read posts before replying.


If you don't know the difference between shortsightedness and nearsightedness in terms of the English language, that is not my problem. Maybe if you spent less time mocking me and more time looking up the definition this conversation would be getting somewhere.

I will not argue with people who cannot get their head out of the fog. Pointless.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> If you don't know the difference between shortsightedness and nearsightedness in terms of the English language, that is not my problem. Maybe if you spent less time mocking me and more time looking up the definition this conversation would be getting somewhere.
> 
> I will not argue with people who cannot get their head out of the fog. Pointless.


What the fuck are you talking about?
How was that post mocking in the slightest??


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Anyway back on topic.....


If you are buying a Dex always buy the latest one, old editions are defunct.

Whilst some people may let you play with the older one most will be expecting to see the latest version as it is the correct one to be using.

As you can see from the replies so far, yes theres a lot of difference. lol.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Viscount Vash said:


> Anyway back on topic.....
> 
> 
> If you are buying a Dex always buy the latest one, old editions are defunct.
> ...


Unless, of course, you and your friends enjoy playing previous-edition games... or if you have a friend with an out-dated army, and wish to play on a "level field", so to speak.


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