# Primarch Bad-Assery Scale



## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

Does anyone wanna help me out in deducing a (rough) order of hardness (and not the penile kind) between primarchs? not for any particular reason, i'm just interested tis' all.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

This is gonna get ugly. Have fun dealing with the Kurze and Russ fanboys here.


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## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

sorry i lost track when i read penile hardness (curse my childish mind) imo god here goes
Angron
Vulkan
Russ
Horus
Guilliman
Ferrus Manus

And then after that its anyones guess but thats how i read it also imho lol Kurze was a sissy


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

i don't follow the kurze fanboyness...i mean i can almost understand russ, even though i hate him (loyal to the thousand sons)...but kurze?? and thanks for the starters, was looking for some good debate though get a good list going, and how come horus so low?


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## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

For me Horus was more of a enigmatic leader of troops and tactician who could sway thousands of people just by talking to them, the perfect mix of diplomat/warrior/ leader combined, now im not saying he isnt strong all primarchs are but Horus to me wasnt always the 'Grrr look at my mighty abs' kinda primarch or 'Angron smash!!!' i would have said he relied on intelligence not brute strength and ofc skill


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

yeh fair comment, i just always assumed he was superior to the rest, in the sense that although he was intelligent ect ect ect...he was still harder than his bros.


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## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

Some of them i imagine Fulgrim to be quite low on the list (in terms of strength) but the consummate swordsman so again skill with a blade, but saying that he did ass r**e an avatar so might have to rethink that...


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The rabid Kurze fanboyism comes from when he savaged Dorn once, though we have absoloutly no idea what happened beyond that. Kurze fans have concluded from this that he is the harder and bad ass, than a hard bad ass, on a hard bad ass day. They will come, just wait.

For the record i would have Angron at the top, followed closely by Ferrus and Vulkan. Then probably Russ, after that its anyones guess imo.


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## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

Didnt Kurze just go into a frenzied state and go loco-roco on dorns arse? i wouldnt say thats bad ass just bat shit crazy =D


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

yeh angron's been proving for years that's not difficult lol


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I'd put Mortarion up there, the characteristic of his legion which keeps going and going is probably also a characteristic of Mortarion. For the most part I'd say all Primarchs where similar in their resilience to damage. Some would be slightly ahead due to practices of their home world or culture, such as Dorn's Pain Gloves, Russ's life on Fenris, Vulkan's low gravity world/heat etc etc.

Edit: As a Dorn supporter, I'd like to point out that what Kurze did to Dorn was totally unprecedented within the Family of Primarchs. Yes there had been fights, but never had a Primarch ever gone literally mental and out of control while simply being "told off".


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

thanks for everything so far you lot!! :biggrin:


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

constantin_valdor said:


> Didnt Kurze just go into a frenzied state and go loco-roco on dorns arse? i wouldnt say thats bad ass just bat shit crazy =D


He didn't even really go frenzied. He had a psychic night terror and for lack of a better term sleep walked all over dorns face. He certainly wasn't in conscious control of himself.

As for who was the "hardest," Ferrus' hands were covered in metal... metal is harder than flesh ergo Ferrus was the hardest


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Klaivex said:


> He didn't even really go frenzied. He had a psychic night terror and for lack of a better term sleep walked all over dorns face. He certainly wasn't in conscious control of himself.
> 
> As for who was the "hardest," Ferrus' hands were covered in metal... metal is harder than flesh ergo Ferrus was the hardest


Shame his neck wasn't as well


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

thats a good point until ya think they didn't spend a great deal of time brawling hand to hand, they certainly preferred their weaponry as is described in fulgrim when he and ferrus fight it out with each others weapons.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

tabbytomo said:


> thats a good point until ya think they didn't spend a great deal of time brawling hand to hand, they certainly preferred their weaponry as is described in fulgrim when he and ferrus fight it out with each others weapons.


It doesn't matter because HR=E-e. Metal beats flesh!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> For the most part I'd say all Primarchs were similar in their resilience to damage. Some would be slightly ahead due to practices of their home world or culture...


This is what it boils down to. All the Primarchs had very similar levels of (so-called) _"toughness"_ (or _"hardness"_). The differences for the most part (as _WoT_ said) comes from their very distinct home worlds and cultures or any intentional differences forged by the Emperor/Chaos. The most noticeably physically adept Primarchs (shall we say) though are usually Angron, Ferrus Manus, Vulkan and Russ. Although this kind of list is almost entirely pointless.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Its hard to figure who had the best and coolest streak of bad assery of them all.

But Ide say Corax would rank up there somewhere, just listen to that audio book of him fighting the IW. I swear listening to the sequence was liek watching a a really bad action movie starring SLy Stallone and Lunderan. For hells sake the fool pretty much took out the entire forec alone and he carried a flippin heavy bolter that he fired like it was normal boltgun.


Im in no way a huge fan of corax but I do give credit where its due, for me Its all about curze, Just always thought the night lords were cool and way better than Lorgar and whiney lil daddy issues.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I don't think Corax is necessarily any tougher than other Primarchs, he _might_ faster though.

His secret power allows him to become practically invisible to electronics which in this case allowed him to leg it right up to the enemy and unleash hell at them before they could really get to grips with him.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I don't think Corax is necessarily any tougher than other Primarchs, he _might_ faster though.
> 
> His secret power allows him to become practically invisible to electronics which in this case allowed him to leg it right up to the enemy and unleash hell at them before they could really get to grips with him.


His power doesn't have anything to do with electronics. He can make himself be ignored by anyone as long as he focuses his mind. This includes his image on video, but he does not become invisible. He will still be picked up by auto sensors and anything that doesn't require human senses.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Been a while since I listened to Raven's Flight so probably my bad, I knew he could go invisible in some way or another, guess I got it backwards


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I would probably say Angron when he is in a frenzy. The man is utterly insane, and I doubt very much he gives a shit about much more than killing things when he puts on his angrier face.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Been a while since I listened to Raven's Flight so probably my bad, I knew he could go invisible in some way or another, guess I got it backwards


So I guess in short corax is the 40k master of the jedi mind trick.

If you ask me instead finding the ultimate badass of the primarchs and just go with the biggest ass of all Ide go with the big E really if you think about he created his own demise by punishing the his lil whiney son


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Hardness? There aren't really enough feats to give you a good comparison between the primarchs. Though, if I'd guess, I'd go with Ferrus Manus, Vulkan & Angron. Vulkan & Ferrus because Vulkan is mentioned as possessing the greatest strength and fortitude amongst the primarchs, possibly only matched by Ferrus and Angron because he had a few thousand tons of rocks dumped on his head and it only pissed him off.


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## ChaosDefilerofUlthuan (Jan 25, 2011)

Angron must be at the top or I'm suing the butts of you people. Come on, who is more badass than a axe wielding maniac!


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

So is this a question of whos the better in comabt Feat wise? Or is this a question everyone is taking litteraly of who is tougher in taking a beating?

As it stands, I say Dorn for the Epic win for taking a beating when Kruze walked up and down his ass. That makes KRUZE the BEST PERIOD!!! AHHHHHHHH!!! (Foaming at the Mouth) NIGHT HAUNTER IS DA BEZT!

Rabid enough?


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

Draigo ... he wrote love letters on a primarch heart and lil mortarion did nothing about it ... He is better than any primarch.:laugh:


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

Any more Draigo talk will have to result in a bruce lee/ tony ja/ jet lee ass-whoopin i'm afraid...and as for the big E, useless waste of time, the guys supposed to be the most amazing psyker ever...and couldn't see the heresy coming. And i was sort of thinking, like in a 1v1 duel, wouldn't someone with more expert combat tactics beat a raving lunatic with a ginormous axe?


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

tabbytomo said:


> Any more Draigo talk will have to result in a bruce lee/ tony ja/ jet lee ass-whoopin i'm afraid...and as for the big E, useless waste of time, the guys supposed to be the most amazing psyker ever...and couldn't see the heresy coming. And i was sort of thinking, like in a 1v1 duel, wouldn't someone with more expert combat tactics beat a raving lunatic with a ginormous axe?


In theory yes but in many cases brute force tends to overcome the the think for the thinker is normally running scared shittless of the axe weilding maniac chasing there ass.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed, sometimes a outright brawler can win against an expert martial artist or weapon expert because the sheer brutality of their technique(or lack of it) and lack of control can stop them from bringing their skills and expertise to bear.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

tabbytomo said:


> Any more Draigo talk will have to result in a bruce lee/ tony ja/ jet lee ass-whoopin i'm afraid...and as for the big E, useless waste of time, the guys supposed to be the most amazing psyker ever...and couldn't see the heresy coming. And i was sort of thinking, like in a 1v1 duel, wouldn't someone with more expert combat tactics beat a raving lunatic with a ginormous axe?


Being a powerful psyker and a skilled farseer are two entirely different things.


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## harlokin (Jun 3, 2011)

tabbytomo said:


> Any more Draigo talk will have to result in a bruce lee/ tony ja/ jet lee ass-whoopin i'm afraid...and as for the big E, useless waste of time, the guys supposed to be the most amazing psyker ever...and couldn't see the heresy coming. ?


Maybe big E did see the Heresy coming, and the events which transpired were the least-worst of the possible options he foresaw....:biggrin:


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

*Potential Spoiler Alert!*



To be fair about Curze -- he did give the Lion a good thump as well. If I remember Savage Weapons correctly, it took the intervention of a common Astartes to save the Lion's life. Curze does lack the sheer force of strength of Angron, the guile of Fulgrim, even the simple, base skill of Vulkan or Russ -- but his insanity, his psycopathic, crazed style of street 'cutting' is still a viable form of killing.

While by no means a fight, Curze did have Corax at a disadvantage. Yes, Corax had been fighting since the beginning of the campaign, and yes he did fight Lorgar just seconds before -- but still, Curze was competent enough to intervene.

I'm not some rabid fanboy of Curze, even though as of right now he is my favorite, so I will not say he would do well against Russ, Angron, or even Vulkan -- but he would show up and bloody them to some extent.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

So I think anyone that's ever watched a boxing or mma bout will tell you that technique and skill will win over brute savery majority of the time. Angron while I will say is a lunatic with axes wouldn't be able to think out a fight in that state. That rage vision crap may work with mortals, but primarch vs primarch I'm thinking it's a disadvantage.Honestly I think in terms of martial strength and cunning intellect Russ and Khan take it. This is from being able to go one on one and think it out. 

I think Kurze is not in the same category.Why? The Night Haunter would try every underhanded trick to psyche you out before it started.He sucker punched Dorn,so let's put that one to bed.If someone is talking to you and then out of nowhere you KO the asshole with a haymaker I'm not going to give you the "Yeah he can take him" nod.Same thing goes for the Lion vs Russ. I think that's a close one but honestly who knows who would have won but I'd say Russ.Here's my list and yeah I know it'll get picked apart.


Russ/Khan
Johnson/Sanguinius
Horus
Angron
Dorn
Mortarion
Vulkan
Fulgrim
Gulliman (for all you smurf fans the guy above him killed him and the next one)
Ferrus Manus
Night Haunter
Corax
Alpharius/Omegon
Perturabo
Lorgar


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Deadeye776 said:


> So I think anyone that's ever watched a boxing or mma bout will tell you that technique and skill will win over brute savery majority of the time.


Doesn't equate the same way. In both Boxing and MMA you can go for a decision, as opposed to only being able to get a finish like in actual combat. As someone that practices BJJ I can tell you bigger guys usually win fights (real fights, not matches), especially at equal skill levels (For an MMA example see GSP vs BJ Penn II or Penn vs Fitch I). While a BJJ Purple Belt who weights 160 pounds might make an athletic guy with no wrestling/BJJ experience at 200 pounds tap out, give that 200 pound guy some wrestling/BJJ background and he'll smash the smaller guy senseless.


With the Primarchs it's another matter, because outside of Ferrus ("Iron" Hands), Magnus (really tall), Sanguinius (Wings), and Angron (Implants to pump all types of drugs and hormones into him) all the Primarchs have similar physical abilities.

Likewise to their marital abilities, all of them but Lorgar and Magnus are highly proficient warriors due to their upbringing. While some Primarchs may be better then others in combat their skills would be too close to call a fight with 100% certainty every time, based purely on skill and technique.

Now because this seems to be a thread about the toughest of all the Primarchs, I'm going to throw a name in that's only been mentioned once in this thread, and I think is getting very under rated.

Sanguinius.

Beyond the fact that his wings allow him to take to the air, Sanguinius was told as one of the most skilled and powerful Primarchs. He also had a mystery about him that hasn't been really covered, and that's how the Red Thirst actually works.

Could Sanguinius have kept his own Red Thirst in check through sheer force of will, and if he had unleashed it what would happen?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Exactly, also in an MMA/Boxing match your missing one very important detail. They aren't playing to kill. That one detail changed the entire dynamic of the fight. And its true that its different with primarchs, it would be even worse. A primarch going full out in a total hate fueled rage to kill, don't even begin to underestimate that, no matter how skilled the opponent.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Remember guys, we're talking about the toughest not who has the best martial ability etc.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

In terms of sheer 'hardness', as in a bloke you'd want with you walking down a dark street in Glasgow id go with Angron, Vulkan and Ferrus Manus and Russ. 

The others may be more proficient warriors, strategists or whatever but in terms of being a 'hardman' the above take it. Their all hulking hardmen who achieved some of the more physically proficient feats among the primarchs. 

Angron: uber-gladiator and a frothing maniac, a true berserker. 
Vulkan: raised on a near deathworld, hunted giant lizards for fun. Was able to hang one handedly, carrying his prize while an active volcano erupted around him. Stubborn to a fault. 
Manus- Again inhospitable climate, physically testing. Voluntarily submerged his own hands in lava. Legendary disdain for weakness. 
Russ- feral child who ran with wolves and ripped throats out. Deathworld as well. Then became the Emperor's final sanction. Punched out a titan. Defeated another primarch. 

The other primarchs, no matter their martial ability don't quite have the same level of raw resilience and primal stature.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

Im not sure why manus keeps being brought up. I was under the impression that Fulgrim would have won regardless of the blade. To me Ferris always came across as a bit of a *****


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> So I think anyone that's ever watched a boxing or mma bout will tell you that technique and skill will win over brute savery majority of the time. Angron while I will say is a lunatic with axes wouldn't be able to think out a fight in that state. That rage vision crap may work with mortals, but primarch vs primarch I'm thinking it's a disadvantage.


Angron is not merely an enraged brute. He is a highly skilled and intelligent warrior, after all he rose to manhood in the gladiatorial arenas. His implants mean that it often appears that he is little more than a crazed psychopath, but that doesn't mean he doesn't bear any skill or combat intelligence. Just look at _Raven's Flight_, when it became clear that Corax had no where to run and was forced to face Angron in single-combat, Corax was convinced of his own death at the hands of his brother (despite being one of the most martially capable of the Primarchs). In my mind this goes a long way to show just how dangerous Angron truly was, that Corax had no doubt whatsoever in his mind that Angron would slay him (of course he didn't though because Corax escaped). 



JelloSea said:


> Im not sure why manus keeps being brought up. I was under the impression that Fulgrim would have won regardless of the blade. To me Ferris always came across as a bit of a *****


It depends how you look at it, many people claim that Fulgrim only triumphed on Isstvan V because of the Laeran blade. But then you also have to take into account that Fulgrim had severe doubts about the fight (and Heresy in general) in his own mind, thus weakening his resolve to fight his brother (it took the daemon to essentially force his hand). Ferrus Manus on the other hand seemed intent on vengeance and the death of his brother, seemingly giving him a clear focus and driving purpose. 

But to be honest none of these lists or match-ups (hypothetical or otherwise) are truly relevant in my mind, all the Primarchs were too similar in terms of strength and power that you cannot realistically determine who was the toughest, most skilled, most powerful, strongest Et cetera.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> But to be honest none of these lists or match-ups (hypothetical or otherwise) are truly relevant in my mind, all the Primarchs were too similar in terms of strength and power that you cannot realistically determine who was the toughest, most skilled, most powerful, strongest Et cetera.


IMO I felt that the primarchs weren't at all equal to each other in stregnth at all. Lorgar wasn't a warrior yeah he could hold his own a fight if needed to but thats considering he isnt up against another priimarch. 

I also was one to not favor brute force and was always more on the side of the inetlligence and tactical mind. I'm surprised when we were discussing the thinker, that no one mentioned Alpharius or Omegon. Sure Curze would run around attempting to scare the pants off his enemy, but good ol' Al is pretty much the SM variant of a ninja and would kind of just dance around the opponent and await the exact moment that is right to strike back.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

JelloSea said:


> Im not sure why manus keeps being brought up. I was under the impression that Fulgrim would have won regardless of the blade. To me Ferris always came across as a bit of a *****


Well the way i read it in _Fulgrim_, Manus was about to kill Fulgrim when the deamon blade effectively saved his life and then gave him that extra drive to defeat Manus, aswell as helping him swing in the final death blow.


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## Hired Goon (Sep 16, 2009)

I'm sure most won't agree with me but....

What about Fulgrim? The majority of posts here read, " Curze beat up this guy Curze beat up that guy."
Fulgrim has two notches in his belt, and not cuz he "beat up" on a primarch, he flat out killed em. Ferrus and poppa smurf Guilliman.
Most Primarchs haven't even killed another Primarch, Fulgrim got 2. Thats pretty bad ass to me.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Fulgrim didn't kill anyone. Daemon-Fulgrim killed one for sure and wounded another to the point of death. This discussion is about toughness though, as in who can take the most damage. At least that's how I saw the debate up until the last page or so.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Okay I'm sure everyone here has seen early Royce Gracie fights, I myself have practiced MMA since I was in the military years ago. As for the lethality of mma, once someone is incapacitated/unconcious you can do anything to them. I'm not gonna debate who wins since this your all right, it's not a UFC fight here. That being said Angron if I here one more person talk about Angron being a skilled warrior because he was a gladiator on some planet I'm gonna freaking puke. You put a crazed primarch in the ring with anything less than a greater daemon or another primarch and he's majority of the time coming out with a win. 

I know that at some point they'll come out with a story about how cunning and intelligent Angron is.I however will take what I've seen so far. His moronic actions at Istavaan show much. The berserkers of Khorne are mindless savages that use ferocity and rage to win. Angron was close to that before. Also I think it's REALLY unfair what everyone is saying about Fulgrim.Just cuz he's not some seething maniac don't sleep on his wins. He kicked Ferrus ass TWICE. That battle at Istavaan as I read it really was the whole techinque argument. Fulgrim is legit with a blade. 

I really don't remember the blade giving him any type of special abilities except the mental conversations. It only really became relevant in the fight after he kicked Ferrus's ass for the second time but could not bring himself to finish him off. The only fight I'll give that Fulgrim had an unfair advangtage was against Gulliman. Being a giant serpentine snake with wings and six arms with poision laced rapiers is a bit much for anyone.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

It's about toughness, as in who can take a beating, not about who can dish it out and is the strongest overall.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Fulgrim really had nothing to do with incaping Manus in their first fight, Manus did it to himself really by denying Fulgrim the Fireblade. And in the second fight, if Fulgrim didn't have the Laeren blade he would have died, 100%.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I don't even like Fulgrim to be honest with you, but I'm not gonna deny that the Black Library pretty much has Fulgrim being the better fighter. This isn't about who can dish out but who can take a beating? What kind of bad-ass scale is that. Your a bad-ass because your a punching bag? If we are talking about warrior's then it's got to be more than being able to take a punch. These guys were created to lead armies. I can't believe I'm defending Fulgrim but to be honest I'm not going to harp on him because he's metro. He won the fight with Manus the first time. Fulgrim offered him a spot with the traitors,he got upset and then got dropped. 

Next the fight between he and Fulgrim on Istavaan. They faced off with Fulgrim in complete control of his body.Read it again. Fulgrim never had that thing take control of his body. That was the point. He fought Fulgrim as himself. Only after he finished kicking his ass he couldn't bring himself to finish him off, THAT'S when the daemon took over. I have the book. He wasn't possessed until he wanted oblivion for what HE'D done. That's when the daemon took over his body.Now if you want to discuss Fulgrim vs Gulliman I'll give you that one.Against Manus, he lost that fair and square.


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## harlokin (Jun 3, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> Fulgrim really had nothing to do with incaping Manus in their first fight, Manus did it to himself really by denying Fulgrim the Fireblade. And in the second fight, if Fulgrim didn't have the Laeren blade he would have died, 100%.


No offence mate, but that is just your opinion.

From what I recall of "Fulgrim", there is nothing in the book that states that the Laeran sword is any more powerful that the Fireblade, it simply had a Daemon resident in it. Thus Fulgrim beat Manus twice, fair and square.

I thought this thread was a "which Primarch can take the most punishment" debate, rather than yet another "my fave Primarch can beat your fave Primarch" war.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned before, but I'm going to throw the Lion into the mix. Not only did he survive on a death world on the edge of the eye of terror for like 10 years, as an unarmed child, he's the only loyalist primarch known to remain alive.
I know he doesn't have the raw aggression of Angron, but that guy has no brains, and Kurze is dead anyway. Russ couldn't beat him in a fight, and Sanguinius was just a sparkly vampire. Manus, too, is dead, and Vulkan I always thought had slower reactions than the others, and by Jonson's skill with a blade, I'd day the Lion has this one too.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

TheSpore said:


> Lorgar wasn't a warrior yeah he could hold his own a fight if needed to but thats considering he isnt up against another priimarch.


My theory has been further validated by the first three chapters of _Aurelian_:



Lorgar drastically changed as a character post-Isstvan, he embraced his psychic potential (instead of fearing and resisting it as he did throughout _The First Heretic_) which allowed him to prevent Horus from restraining him, keep the Daemon-Fulgrim in a near-death state and restrained and even threatened Magnus' psychic presence with his own. Lorgar had become much more confrontational and much more warrior-like (so to speak), he near-killed/banished the Daemon-Fulgrim with a single hit from _Illuminarium_ and happily confronted all of his traitor-brother Primarchs to keep Fulgrim restrained.



So as I said, Lorgar couldn't just hold his own in a fight unless it was against another Primarch. _Aurelian_ so far just goes to show that all the Primarchs were very similar in terms of strength Et cetera. It was Lorgar's timid and non-confrontational character (and rejection of being classed as a warrior) from _The First Heretic_ which makes him seem weak in comparison to his brothers, rather than any genuine lack of skill or ability.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

To be fair, my opinion on the Lion is that he never committed to acts of self sacrifice, only self interest.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

harlokin said:


> No offence mate, but that is just your opinion.
> 
> From what I recall of "Fulgrim", there is nothing in the book that states that the Laeran sword is any more powerful that the Fireblade, it simply had a Daemon resident in it. Thus Fulgrim beat Manus twice, fair and square.
> 
> I thought this thread was a "which Primarch can take the most punishment" debate, rather than yet another "my fave Primarch can beat your fave Primarch" war.


Elaborate. Again in the first fight, Ferrus is the one who incapacitates himself by destroying Fireblade. So yeah Fulgrim technically won the fight, but it wasn't anything to do with his ability, more of Manus not really thinking about the consequences of destroying the sword with his hands.

As for the second fight, did you not read it properly or something? Ferrus diarms Fulgrim and then swings his sword in for the kill stroke. Then "Fulgrim cried out and his hands leapt unbidden to his waist as the flaming blade carved a burning path towards his neck. Silver steel flashed as he drew the sword he had taken from the Laer temple and blocked the descending weapon." So already if Fulgrim didn't have the sword he would be dead, but ok, brining a second weapon to a fight isn't against the rules or anything, but then note that his hands 'leapt unbidden to his waist' this is yet another one of the many signs that the deamon within the sword is already taking control of Fulgrim, even going so far as to take control of him for a moment to draw the sword and block Ferrus blow.

Still not convinced? Okay, how about 
"Ferrus's sword hissed and spat as it bit into the silver blade, the Primarch of the Iron Hands' strength forcing the blazing metal, centimetre by centimetre, towards Fulgrim's face.
"No!" Cried Fulgrim. "This is not right!."
The amethyst stone at the hilt of Fulgrim's swod blazed with an evil light, bathing Ferrus Manus's face in a leering purple glare. Energy streamed from the blade, and musky smoke billowed around them, deadening sounds and obscuring sight. Fulgrim felt a monstorous presence swell around him, its power and nameless essence more intoxicating and dreadful than anything he could have ever imagined.
Diabolical strength flooded his limbs as he pushed against the power of Ferrus Manus, feeling his brothers suprise at his resistance. With a cry of animal rage, he surged to his feet and hurled Ferrus Manus back, spinning and lashing out with his sword."

It goes on for a little while aswell, but come on? How did you not read that part enough to show that the deamon was the only reason Fulgrim survived, even after blocking the blow, Fulgrim couldn't fight back Ferrus strength until the deamon gave Fulgrim more strength to fight back. And then the sword was said to do a whole manner of unatural thing to both Fulgrim and Ferrus. Fulgrim also trying to stop killing Ferrus at the end, but the deamon keapt the blade swinging towards Ferrus neck.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

The Lion huh? On word why most likely no one has mentioned him: Luthor. Luthor was a half man upgrade but not an Astartes. He then got the nod from the Chaos Gods and beat the Lion. Now I know this makes him ultra powerful. However with Horus it's respectable for him to beat on guys like Sanguinius.He was a Primarch that got elevated.For an enhanced human to take you down,even chaos blessed,may have some people wondering. I'm not saying another Primarch could have taken him. When they finally write the book,maybe they'll say he was more powerful than Horus.


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## harlokin (Jun 3, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> Elaborate. Again in the first fight, Ferrus is the one who incapacitates himself by destroying Fireblade. So yeah Fulgrim technically won the fight, but it wasn't anything to do with his ability, more of Manus not really thinking about the consequences of destroying the sword with his hands.
> 
> As for the second fight, did you not read it properly or something? Ferrus diarms Fulgrim and then swings his sword in for the kill stroke. Then "Fulgrim cried out and his hands leapt unbidden to his waist as the flaming blade carved a burning path towards his neck. Silver steel flashed as he drew the sword he had taken from the Laer temple and blocked the descending weapon." So already if Fulgrim didn't have the sword he would be dead, but ok, brining a second weapon to a fight isn't against the rules or anything, but then note that his hands 'leapt unbidden to his waist' this is yet another one of the many signs that the deamon within the sword is already taking control of Fulgrim, even going so far as to take control of him for a moment to draw the sword and block Ferrus blow.
> 
> ...



Heh, you obviously remember the book better than I do. You have me convinced. :grin:


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## harlokin (Jun 3, 2011)

Deadeye776 said:


> The Lion huh? On word why most likely no one has mentioned him: Luthor. Luthor was a half man upgrade but not an Astartes. He then got the nod from the Chaos Gods and beat the Lion. Now I know this makes him ultra powerful. However with Horus it's respectable for him to beat on guys like Sanguinius.He was a Primarch that got elevated.For an enhanced human to take you down,even chaos blessed,may have some people wondering. I'm not saying another Primarch could have taken him. When they finally write the book,maybe they'll say he was more powerful than Horus.


The general point of comparison with The Lion is that he seemed a match for Russ, who is generally regarded as tough.

I would place Angron as top of the tree in terms of pure combat ability as he seems to be bereft of any other qualities/abilities, and the poor 1-dimensional sap needs to have something to call is own. :biggrin:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

From what i remember regarding the different fluff pieces about the Lion vs Luther, it was one of those classic examples of where the one fighters heart just isn't in it, alot like the Emperor vs Horus. The Lion not quite being able to bring himself to kill Luther or fully believe his treachery, whereas Luther was fully commited to bringing down the Lion, right up until the very last moment of course.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

harlokin said:


> Heh, you obviously remember the book better than I do. You have me convinced. :grin:


Not me, Fulgrim KOed a murdering vengeful Manus in a fair fight with no blade. In the second one his Daemon Sword cause him to go enraged but thats no different then Angron or Russ being enraged. He got a boost of Primarch Adrenalin. Sry the fact that Ferrus lost not once, but twice to Fulgrim shows with or without the DW Fulgrim makes his brother his bitch.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

The Fulgrim/Ferrus fight is a difficult one to call IMO. Some say Ferrus would have taken Fulgrim out if not for the sword where as others see Fulgrim beating Ferrus fair and square. I kind of hold a different opinion. 

I think that they were both fighting failry equally, but that Fulgrim had some advantage. This comes from Lorgar's remark in _The First Heretic_ that Fulgrim was winning. 

I think that the reason Ferrus got Fulrgim into that position of vulnerability, that the sword was needed, was because of the fact that Fulgrim had just regained some of the lucudity and sensibility he'd been lacking the previous few months. Neither primarch was in a dominant position at that point, but Fulgrim slightly regained his senses. Thus, he was caught off guard for a few seconds and unwilling to continue fighting, thereby giving Ferrus the opening to go for the kill.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Not me, Fulgrim KOed a murdering vengeful Manus in a fair fight with no blade. In the second one his Daemon Sword cause him to go enraged but thats no different then Angron or Russ being enraged. He got a boost of Primarch Adrenalin. Sry the fact that Ferrus lost not once, but twice to Fulgrim shows with or without the DW Fulgrim makes his brother his bitch.


Seriously? In the first fight Fulgrim definetly had a blade, Ferrus subsequently destroys the blade and then he knocks him out with the hammer.

Are you kidding me? Primarch adrenaline? Read that passage again, your seriosuly misreading that if you think thats saying adrenaline.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> Seriously? In the first fight Fulgrim definitely had a blade, Ferrus subsequently destroys the blade and then he knocks him out with the hammer.
> 
> Are you kidding me? Primarch adrenaline? Read that passage again, your seriously misreading that if you think thats saying adrenaline.


Are you kidding me? Fulgrim didnt win the first fight fair either? Also why not Adrenalin? The Daemon gave Fulgrim no extra power at all. All it ever did was push Fulgrim to the savage edge. I think you read too much into it. It read "Diabolical strength flooded his limbs" and before that reads "Fulgrim felt a monstrous presence swell around him, its power and nameless essence more intoxicating and dreadful than anything he could ever imagine."

So that says to me he was all in self doubt, Manus had the edge and the *Presence* of the Daemon in the Blade caused Fulgrim to get a rush. NOWHERE does it specifically say that the Daemon gave fulgrim additional power. It was just the mere presence that gave Fulgrim the adrenalin rush he needed. Ive read other non BL books where authors used the term "He then fought with Diabolical strength" and have NOTHING to do with Daemons. 

You read too much into it. Fulgrim won both times.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well theres little point trying to argue it with you then. You've read it that way, fine. The vast majority of people i know and have spoke to on here however see it the way i read it aswell. Clearly not going to change your mind, so we're just going to have to agree to disagree.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> Well theres little point trying to argue it with you then. You've read it that way, fine. The vast majority of people i know and have spoke to on here however see it the way i read it aswell. Clearly not going to change your mind, so we're just going to have to agree to disagree.



Agreed! I mean Disagree! I mean....


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

the problem is the books embellish the primarchs as savagely superior to your average who is already the most badass thing in the universe. We're talking in the realms of the uber uber uber badass here and thats where things get messy.

Plus were all going on fiction, for example i read a thousands sons (being a fanboy of said legion) as magnus kicking the shit out of russ and russ getting a lucky stroke in the one are where magnus's power was centralised, his eye.

However as exemplified beforehand in a spirited dispute with gen.ahab the wolf fanboys will read it as russ kicked magnus's red hairy cyclopean ass

I think the main problem with fiction and primarchs is that they have to try and keep them exceedingly balanced, so as to avoid the concept of downplaying a primarch's strength and thus making people upset when their legions primarch comes across as a condom instead of a garbage bag.

makes it difficult for comparisons of badassery and its subsequent debates

but just to be a dick, im going russ, laugh at the lion, rumored to have sawed the head off a titan, shame he had to resort to luck to beat magnus


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## Sangriento (Dec 1, 2010)

tbh, imo current Khârn is prolly more badass than any pre-HH primarch...


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Sangriento said:


> tbh, imo current Khârn is prolly more badass than any pre-HH primarch...


You are wrong, but entitled to that opinion none the less.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> This is gonna get ugly. Have fun dealing with the Kurze and Russ fanboys here.


lol indeed


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## Sangriento (Dec 1, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> You are wrong, but entitled to that opinion none the less.


wrong why, if I may ask?

daemon prices are ranked higher than "plain" primarchs...thats why primarchs that reach daemonhood are considered to have "risen" in power...otherwise why strive to hit that rank, and what kind of gift that would be if it was losing power, demoting?

Khârn is the greatest chosen champion of Khorne, only (closely) second in power to Angron, one of Khorne's daemon princes. Bestows Khorne's blessing making him impervious to all and any sorcery, and wields one of the two most powerful daemon weapons in the galaxy...

I'd like you to analyze convincingly how being that is any less inferior to an old school primarch....

and the bad assery part is pretty self explanatory. I dont think there are many 40k chars that have been killing just for sport in both Imperium and EoT territories, and make both sides tremble with fear...while being alone....


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Sangriento said:


> Khârn is the greatest chosen champion of Khorne, only (closely) second in power to Angron, one of Khorne's daemon princes. Bestows Khorne's blessing making him impervious to all and any sorcery, and wields one of the two most powerful daemon weapons in the galaxy...


Kharn is still just a Space Marine, he's not a Daemon Prince or close to it, he is effectively a mortal who Khorne keep alive to do his bidding, he is lesser in every way to say a Blood Thirster. 

Sanguinius fought and broke the back of one of Khorne's more favoured Greater Daemons. Lifting it by the neck, snapping it over his knee wrestling style and tossing it back into the heretic army. That is more bad ass than anything Kharn has done.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Kharn is probably going to get owned by Sigismund in the Heresy Novels imo.


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## Sangriento (Dec 1, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> Kharn is still just a Space Marine, he's not a Daemon Prince or close to it, he is effectively a mortal who Khorne keep alive to do his bidding, he is lesser in every way to say a Blood Thirster.
> 
> Sanguinius fought and broke the back of one of Khorne's more favoured Greater Daemons. Lifting it by the neck, snapping it over his knee wrestling style and tossing it back into the heretic army. That is more bad ass than anything Kharn has done.


and yet Sanguinius died without presenting an oposition worth that name to a risen daemon prince primarch, Horus, the very same rank that Khorne seems to be "second in power only"...


Kharn isnt any more space marine than Abbadon is, dude...its a whole different animal now. actually I'd say that Kharn is far more dangerous than Abbadon when it comes to pure physical violence, since single dedication to a god grants you more favour than worshipping chaos undivided.


btw, there are Bloodthirsters, and then there are Bloodthirsters... Sanguinius sure did kill one bare handed, but...it wasnt exactly Skarbrand, you know? 

its obvious that there are "lesser" Bloodthirsters, not all of them are just as powerful as the rest.

hell, Angron has 12 Bloodthirsters merely as his escort...his escort...and I repeat, kharn is considered only second to Angron, and not by much...I suppose that puts him way ahead and above all but the one or two most favoured Bloodthirsters....


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Sanguinius also had to fight at Signus Prime to, then hold back the forces entirely by himself at one of the gates, he thought a great deal more when he came to face Horus who was fresh.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Ka'bandha was actually said to be more than your average bloodthirster. Sure khans pretty bad ass in melee but I'm still willing to bet pretty much every primarch, even the ones not empowered by chaos would wipe the floor with the current kharn


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Sangriento said:


> and yet Sanguinius died without presenting an oposition worth that name to a risen daemon prince primarch, Horus, the very same rank that Khorne seems to be "second in power only"...
> 
> 
> Kharn isnt any more space marine than Abbadon is, dude...its a whole different animal now. actually I'd say that Kharn is far more dangerous than Abbadon when it comes to pure physical violence, since single dedication to a god grants you more favour than worshipping chaos undivided.
> ...


Obviously you've made up your mind and that's cool, You are still wrong but we will not be able to convince you of that. 

Kharn is not as powerful as a Daemon, nor as powerful as a Daemon Prince, he is still essentially a mortal warrior as he needs to be to wage war in the mortal realm so effectively. As we can see Khrone hasn't made him 12 feet tall or super strong or tough, He's just a very angry marine with a shiny axe. He is undoubtably very good at being very angry with his Shiny Axe ™ but that is not to compare him to the Primarchs who are a cut above.


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## Sangriento (Dec 1, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> Obviously you've made up your mind and that's cool, You are still wrong but we will not be able to convince you of that.
> 
> Kharn is not as powerful as a Daemon, nor as powerful as a Daemon Prince, he is still essentially a mortal warrior as he needs to be to wage war in the mortal realm so effectively. As we can see Khrone hasn't made him 12 feet tall or super strong or tough, He's just a very angry marine with a shiny axe. He is undoubtably very good at being very angry with his Shiny Axe ™ but that is not to compare him to the Primarchs who are a cut above.


so in your opinion being the chosen champion of Khorne is roughly equal to having a rather long bad hair day, no more no less, no changes to your power watsoever...k, got it...

but then, I dont know why the ecclesiarchy doesnt prank the SM chapters to piss them off before battles, since apparently any marine can destroy chaos dreadnoughts barehanded without breaking a sweat just by getting emo...


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I don't think he is a champion of Khorne, rather simply a warrior who was blessed by him and then left to his own devices.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Sangriento said:


> so in your opinion being the chosen champion of Khorne is roughly equal to having a rather long bad hair day, no more no less, no changes to your power watsoever...k, got it...


You brought up his in game ability of Blessing of he Blood God, care to look along his stat line and tell me how powerful Khorne has made him? Oh wait he's still just a Space Marine in regards to strength, toughness and armour save.


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## Sangriento (Dec 1, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> You brought up his in game ability of Blessing of he Blood God, care to look along his stat line and tell me how powerful Khorne has made him? Oh wait he's still just a Space Marine in regards to strength, toughness and armour save.


probably because if he was given daemon stats he would be oh-so-insanely overpowered...
fluff is one thing, game is another. his ability of blessing of the blood god is both in-game and in-fluff

if you look at game stats typhus sucks...and yet in the fluff a nurgle prince hints that he is too cool for school (avataric and triple blessed) 


btw, kharn is mortal...? according to the fluff that should be taken with a grain of salt....


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Just to bring something up in the Lion Vs Luthor debate. But didn't the Chaos gods elevate Luthor to the level where he could stand up to a primarch? And even then If I remember correctly Lion still won and Luthor stabbed him in the back?

In fact I have a quote to back it up.

_"As the planet itself started to break apart, the battle between Jonson and Luther reached it's climax. Luther weakened by the long combat stagged and fell, leaving himself open to a deathblow from Jonson's blade. But Jonson could not bring himself to land the fatal blow upon his former friend. As he hesitated, Luther, aided by the powers of Chaos, unleashed a furious psychic assault that knocked Jonson to his knees and left him mortally wounded."_: Dark Angels Codes pg 9.

So yeh the whole 'Lion's a wuss because Luther kicked his ass' thing doesn't really hold water. Jonson had him stone cold beat. 
As for Jonson's fight with that great screaming Emo Curze that's easy to explain. Jonson gave him too much credit. 
He expected Curze to fight like a warrior with honor and skill. He didn't expect Curze to fight like a cornered rat. That was always Jonson's weakness he didn't know how to read others, even his brothers.


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## khorneflake (Jul 11, 2008)

Sangriento said:


> probably because if he was given daemon stats he would be oh-so-insanely overpowered...
> fluff is one thing, game is another. his ability of blessing of the blood god is both in-game and in-fluff
> 
> if you look at game stats typhus sucks...and yet in the fluff a nurgle prince hints that he is too cool for school (avataric and triple blessed)
> ...


You are seriously overestimating kharn. He is a Space Marine, albeit a very powerful, ancient, pissed off Space Marine. Think Darth Vader versus a Stormtrooper.

This brings me to an interesting thought. How many Space Marines are still alive from the Horus Heresy? Kharn comes to mind, and no one else.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

khorneflake said:


> This brings me to an interesting thought. How many Space Marines are still alive from the Horus Heresy? Kharn comes to mind, and no one else.


(Takes breath) Lucius, Fabius Bile, Typhus, Abadabadon, Bjorn, Ahriman, Wolf Lord Bulveye and a few other members of the 13th great company, to name a few.


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## khorneflake (Jul 11, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> (Takes breath) Lucius, Fabius Bile, Typhus, Abadabadon, Bjorn, Ahriman, Wolf Lord Bulveye and a few other members of the 13th great company, to name a few.


Is that it?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

khorneflake said:


> Is that it?


I'm sure there are more, but that is all that I can remember.


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## Lord of Rebirth (Jun 7, 2008)

Problem I see how what direction of hardness you mean. I mean we all know Angron in a berserker monster but several other primarchs are noted for fighting in a more efficiency oriented combat style where smashing enemies to pulps is replaced with vital spot kills. Is it more badass to literally pulp a dozen enemies or to vital point kill them and use less energy?


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## Minizke1 (Feb 7, 2010)

Corax, that is all. 
For the love of God, his final recorded words were "NEVERMORE."


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I'd love it if Corax shoved a Lightning Claw through Alpharius or Omegon's head in Deliverance lost.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I'd love it if Corax shoved a Lightning Claw through Alpharius or Omegon's head in Deliverance lost.


I personally like it better when he pulls out the good old power whip. And i think his claws were busted on istvann in ravens flight.


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## Minizke1 (Feb 7, 2010)

See, all I have to do is say his name and you guys start fantasizing about his utter badassery.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Klaivex said:


> I personally like it better when he pulls out the good old power whip. And i think his claws were busted on istvann in ravens flight.


His whip was weird, it reminded me of a saber whip from star wars heh. He only lost one of his claws during Istvaan, he'd have enough time to replace it.



Minizke1 said:


> See, all I have to do is say his name and you guys start fantasizing about his utter badassery.


I've always thought he was pretty cool, even before I read what he did to Lorgar, then again I've always thought emo type people where cool to


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