# Who wins the Long Game?



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Of all the long lived beings and entities in the 40k-verse, which in your opinion has the greatest chance of emerging as the most successful? *Not necessarily the sole survivor of them all*, but the most likely to achieve lasting dominance? 

Is it: 

A: The c'tan. Over however long it takes, perhaps the shards manage to gradually rejoin themselves, be it by chance, engineering or carelessness on the part of their captors. Perhaps some trancendent shards become aware enough of their past to truly become what they once were, maybe a few manage to emerge and topple their former masters in vengeance. From here they could do pretty much anything, imposing their rule upon the younger races of the galaxy and reigniting the War with the Warp fed deities and worshipers just like the days of old where time was to their advantage. 

B: The necrons. Through whatever you may call it, conquest or conviction, perhaps a visionary necron lord such as Anrakyr, Imotekh or Szarekh manages to pull the divided necron empire back together in time to reclaim the galaxy from the threats within and without. The tyranids are driven back and/or defeated, the influence of Chaos brought back under control and the younger races either stamped out or brought into compliance, serving whatever useful end their masters may dictate. The hold on the c'tan is maintained and with stability achieved greater measures are developed to keep them contained. 

C: The Tyranids. With too little too late amassed to stop them, the constant influx of tyranid Hive Fleets proves too much for the denizens of the galaxy to handle and their feeding frenzy drives all other life in the galaxy to extinction. The turbulence in the warp from so much resounding death may slow them for a time, but in the end they are stronger and more numerous for having fed on such powerful genetic samples, spelling even swifter doom for whichever galaxy falls under their ever hungry gaze next. 

D: Chaos. With ever greater numbers of mortals succumbing to their divine influence and their power reaching near unstoppable levels, the very moment of the Emperor's death spells not only doom for the Imperium, but for every other being in the galaxy as Humanity falls completely under the sway of the Dark Gods. Powered by the four winds, an army of unstoppable fanatics and slaves marches forth, feeding the Eye of Terror's growth until the entire galaxy is naught but the gods' playground. 

E: The Mortal Races. While no single regime will endure forever, the deaths of those now feeds the courage of those in the future, inspiring the next generations to continue the fight. One by one the enemies of all living things are brought crashing down, the tyranids eradicated, the c'tan and their masters brought to heel and the influence of Chaos stemmed and bled dry by enlightenment and understanding. Though the Imperium may not have survived, and the tau and eldar races lie bloodied or broken, Life itself continues to endure, refusing to submit to even the darkest forces the universe can bring to bear. 



Stirring speeches aside, which of those do you perceive to be the most realistic outcome of the current setting?


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## arlins (Sep 8, 2010)

Tyranids eat man , elder , orks and Tau ( and anything else that's eatable ) 
Chaos dies ( nothing to sustain them ) 

Necrons sit and wait till the tyranids either starve ( or turn on themselves to sustain higher hive creatures ) or bugger off .

Necrons are now the rulers till the destroyers get bored and decide to anhialate the last living remanants ( ie , the other Necrons ) .

  

simplistic I know , If you follow the fluff though the silent king came back from his self imposed exile once he realised the threat of the Tyranids .
If they ate all life then the Necrons would not be able to return to biological beings ( so he started to awaken tomb worlds ) . So in all liklyness theyd probably fight and ally against the Tyranids . That's not to say some dynasties would abstain as all don't want to return to what they once were .
I also like the idea that at some point the C,Tan regain there former self,s , either through 
Necron memory engrams breaking down ( and not remembering whats captured in the teserct labrynths or why they did it ) OR they do manage apotheosis ( I think that's what they call becoming mortal again ) and as with mortals , time turns fact to myth and curiosity eventually kills the cat


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## Cowbellicus (Apr 10, 2012)

arlins said:


> Tyranids eat man , elder , orks and Tau ( and anything else that's eatable )
> Chaos dies ( nothing to sustain them )
> 
> Necrons sit and wait till the tyranids either starve ( or turn on themselves to sustain higher hive creatures ) or bugger off .
> ...


This is actually a really good analysis. The Tyranids in particular should be fundamentally unstoppable. The hive fleets are so large they are visible as _interstellar structures_. It's difficult to really grasp that scale. The hive fleets could eat every single occupied planet in the galaxy and probably 0.00000001% of them would even realize they encountered resistance. Of course, plot armor prevents this, but ....

The necrons of course don't give a crap about living on worlds that have been stripped of life (heck, their pylons do this) so inheriting Tyranid discards would be just fine for them. Although I'm sure they'd be retroactively pissed that there was so much life they missed having a chance to kill. But they're used to being safely buried for billions of years, so whatevs.


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

Cowbellicus said:


> The necrons of course don't give a crap about living on worlds that have been stripped of life (heck, their pylons do this) so inheriting Tyranid discards would be just fine for them. Although I'm sure they'd be retroactively pissed that there was so much life they missed having a chance to kill. But they're used to being safely buried for billions of years, so whatevs.


Actually, the Necrons are already opposing the Tyranids. Szarekh, who used to be the Silent King in charge of the entire Necrontyr species, views the Tyranids as the greatest threat there is to the dream of his people regaining biological bodies (and thus their souls), so he is marshalling tombworlds against the Great Devourer. The whole "all necrons want to eradicate all life" thing has been tossed out the window by Games Workshop.


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

Dark Eldar /end thread.


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## arlins (Sep 8, 2010)

Karthak said:


> Actually, the Necrons are already opposing the Tyranids. Szarekh, who used to be the Silent King in charge of the entire Necrontyr species, views the Tyranids as the greatest threat there is to the dream of his people regaining biological bodies (and thus their souls), so he is marshalling tombworlds against the Great Devourer. The whole "all necrons want to eradicate all life" thing has been tossed out the window by Games Workshop.


 
Indeed , ( as mentioned in my original post ) though without the command protocols the silent king has no control over his former empire and I doubt all the dynasties will heed the call to fight ( indeed he himself is probably a target of some vengefull lords as not all went to transference willingly ) .

Even with the Necrons , I doubt ( unless GW change the fluff ) that the hive fleets could be stopped .
Just leaving those that don't support the silent king to sit back a wait ( theyre good at that  ) till theyre last ...... robot standing


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## arlins (Sep 8, 2010)

stupid double post


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

On a serious side Tyranids then Necrons nuke them. 

Nids devoured flesh and all sorts and their size is beyond gargantuan. The imperium sure as hell don't have something to stop a single hive fleet short of bodies which aren't entirely infinite. And at best throwing men and arms is really out of desperation not tactics and method. Orks can't exist without planets to grow them so that's out. 

You could are that Chaos as an entity would still be around but the 4 gods don't give the much of a damn right now. 

Though really Tyranids won't consume Cron as far as I'm aware so then the Crons just need to exterminate the 'Nids once they have consumed all the biomass and starts to die of/unable to grow. 

That's always been my understanding of the Universe at least. 


Even if both Eldar did hide in the webway they would die out sooner or later.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

arlins said:


> Tyranids eat man , elder , orks and Tau ( and anything else that's eatable )
> Chaos dies ( nothing to sustain them )
> 
> Necrons sit and wait till the tyranids either starve ( or turn on themselves to sustain higher hive creatures ) or bugger off .
> ...


The problem with simplistic solutions is that all the greatest threats in the galaxy are occurring simultaneously. So for example, whilst the Tyranids are encroaching from the galactic void, Chaos is also breaking through the Cadian Gate and enacting the Crimson Path, whilst the Silent King is strenuously reawakening Tomb Worlds etc.

In the relative short-term the most likely outcome is the 13th Black Crusade (thanks to the Crimson Path) rumbles on towards Terra, just as the Astronomican continues to attract the Tyranids swarms. The primary purpose of the Silent King and his awakening Necrons seems to be to combat the Tyranids, whilst any and all Greenskin empires will continue to be attracted to the most vicious wars. Thus a four-way scrap (with involvement from any Imperial remnants and any interested Eldar factions) over the carcass of the Imperium seems the most likely result in the short-medium term, which would then usher in the next age of the galaxy.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

The galaxy was nearly annihilated before and when the Necrons woke up the Chaos Gods were still here. They are immortal and eternal in the truest sense of those words. They exist beyond the bounds of time itself, they have always existed and always will, regardless of what the material realm is doing.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Will the four Gods continue to exist in their current state if all mortal (not Tyranid) life is extinguished from the galaxy?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> The galaxy was nearly annihilated before and when the Necrons woke up the Chaos Gods were still here. They are immortal and eternal in the truest sense of those words. They exist beyond the bounds of time itself, they have always existed and always will, regardless of what the material realm is doing.


Granted, but if their pawns lose the battle for the Materium all of their immortality and such doesn't really mean much.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Granted, but if their pawns lose the battle for the Materium all of their immortality and such doesn't really mean much.


Well it kinda does. I mean the topic is the Long Game and since the Chaos Gods can't loose they must eventually win, right? The Gods can't ever die, everything else in the contest can and probably will so all they have to do is wait.


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Well it kinda does. I mean the topic is the Long Game and since the Chaos Gods can't loose they must eventually win, right? The Gods can't ever die, everything else in the contest can and probably will so all they have to do is wait.


Why can't the chaos gods die? We've had examples of actual gods biting the dust (like most of the Eldar ones).


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Karthak said:


> Why can't the chaos gods die? We've had examples of actual gods biting the dust (like most of the Eldar ones).


Time doesn't exist in the warp. By definition the Chaos Gods have always existed and always will. They are the warp and the warp is them. The Eldar Gods are different in that they were created intentionally (or at the very least, they seem to have been) and might have corporeal forms but even they they aren't necessarily dead they've just been consumed by Slaanesh (the fatality of that basically depending on your views of the Eldar gods).


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Time doesn't exist in the warp. By definition the Chaos Gods have always existed and always will. They are the warp and the warp is them. The Eldar Gods are different in that they were created intentionally (or at the very least, they seem to have been) and might have corporeal forms but even they they aren't necessarily dead they've just been consumed by Slaanesh (the fatality of that basically depending on your views of the Eldar gods).


I'm having trouble with the whole "Time doesn't exist in the warp" argument, in general and not just as you're using it in this discussion, as it's established as canon that the first Chaos God to emerge was Khorne, which didn't happen until sometime in early recorded human history. That means no Chaos Gods interfered during the entire War in Heaven, after the Necron's wiped most sentient life from the galaxy, or even during most of the Eldar Empire... although with the most recent fluff it's no longer clear to me of the order of those three events. I'm sure some other nasty form of the Primordial Anniahlator was at play considering it's reputation for billions of years prior to Khorne. Perhaps it's the creation of the Eye that gave Chaos such a preeminent role in the Milky Way where before they struggled to find material sponsors?

On another note, I wonder if the Tyranids can reemerge on a planet once they've cleansed it of all life? I think the Nids could easily win in the latest round by wiping life from the Milky Way, but sentient life has a way of hiding in the nooks and crannies of asteroids, Craftworlds, starship hives, etc. In that case, I think some current species would emerge from the Nid cleansing and repopulate the galaxy, although it wouldn't be one of the current players as they're known.

If the Nid's biological residue rises again after a planet they cleansed was repopulated millennia after they first ate it out of house and home. In that case, then the Nids will own the Milky Way in the Long Game IMO.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> I'm having trouble with the whole "Time doesn't exist in the warp" argument, in general and not just as you're using it in this discussion, as it's established as canon that the first Chaos God to emerge was Khorne, which didn't happen until sometime in early recorded human history.


The problem with this argument is that it assumes that the warp follows some kind of externally accessible logic, which it doesn't. For example: we know exactly when Slaanesh was born, shortly before the GC was launched. We know this because the birth of Slaanesh is the Fall of the Eldar. But we also know that Slaanesh existed prior to this point. She Who Thirsts is well-established in Eldar lore before the Fall and it is explicitly mentioned that she fueled her own birth. Slaanesh is her own father. That shit don't make sense but it happened. I agree with you that it doesn't make sense for time not to exist in the warp, but it doesn't. The warp doesn't make any sense. That's just about the only thing about it that's consistent.



> If the Nid's biological residue rises again after a planet they cleansed was repopulated millennia after they first ate it out of house and home. In that case, then the Nids will own the Milky Way in the Long Game IMO.


There's no indication that the Nids operate in this fashion. To me it doesn't seem likely that they would because they aim to leave nothing organic behind. That includes there own organisms and would logically include there own eggs/whatever. It would be wasteful after-all to leave combat organisms in a non-combat zone. Plus, they'd starve to death rather quickly.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Well it kinda does. I mean the topic is the Long Game and since the Chaos Gods can't loose they must eventually win, right? The Gods can't ever die, everything else in the contest can and probably will so all they have to do is wait.


No, this isn't the case at all. The c'tan can't die either remember? Yet both sides aim to enslave and feed upon all life. The question was who wins the lasting victory in the Materium. Immortal or not, the influence of both these classes of gods can be contained one way or another, so neither is necessarily guaranteed victory.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> The c'tan can't die either remember?


Didn't one get killed when they were sharding the others?



> The question was who wins the lasting victory in the Materium. Immortal or not, the influence of both these classes of gods can be contained one way or another, so neither is necessarily guaranteed victory.


Well, if it's about material victory then Chaos shouldn't really be considered. A) Because the Chaos Gods themselves aren't really a player in the material realm, and have shown themselves to be largely uninterested in it. B) Because the Chaos Gods aren't in a mutually exclusive situation with everyone else: they can 'win' even if another faction wins complete control of the material realm. C) Because the Chaos Gods can't loose. Without a definitive loss state it's hard to say what a definitive win looks like.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Didn't one get killed when they were sharding the others?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if it's about material victory then Chaos shouldn't really be considered. A) Because the Chaos Gods themselves aren't really a player in the material realm, and have shown themselves to be largely uninterested in it. B) Because the Chaos Gods aren't in a mutually exclusive situation with everyone else: they can 'win' even if another faction wins complete control of the material realm. C) Because the Chaos Gods can't loose. Without a definitive loss state it's hard to say what a definitive win looks like.


One c'tan, yes. A fluke that has not been repeated since and had a devastating consequence. 

To your second point, I originally referred to Chaos in general, meaning daemons and followers as well. The c'tan I referred to separate to the necrpns because they are no longer technically on the same side by choice.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> One c'tan, yes. A fluke that has not been repeated since and had a devastating consequence.


So they can actually be killed. 

Not to mention they can be rendered impotent with a tesseract labrynth. The C'tan are defeatable; they're killable, shardable, controlable. The Ruinous Powers are not.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Rems said:


> So they can actually be killed.


Debatable, since even the necrons do not understand how exactly it happened, it wasn't something they planned for. And even if anyone else could duplicate the kind of technology responsible for this occurrence, there is no guarantee it would ever happen again. So this really isn't a factor I would bank on. 



Rems said:


> Not to mention they can be rendered impotent with a tesseract labrynth. The C'tan are defeatable; they're killable, shardable, controlable. The Ruinous Powers are not.


When you mention it this way, I almost forget about the trillions of necrons that were lost to achieve it, as well as the reality warping power they possess and the knowledge they imparted on the necrons, knowledge and tech which brought even the Old Ones to desparation and defeat. 

I guess none of that matters, nor the fear that the necrons still hold strongly for them and the fact that they only use these beings when they have no other options. 


I guess what my point is here, is that only ONE race has ever succeeded in outright defeating and controlling the c'tan. It is arguable whether they have the means to repeat this feat should such action ever be required again. Due to this, I consider them to be one of the highest long term threats in 40k. If enough of them were to break free of necron control (which we can assume is possible as it is stated in the lore) they could do all kinds of large scale damage.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> Debatable, since even the necrons do not understand how exactly it happened, it wasn't something they planned for. And even if anyone else could duplicate the kind of technology responsible for this occurrence, there is no guarantee it would ever happen again. So this really isn't a factor I would bank on.


And yet is is possible. The warp is an impossible realm where anything is possible. I'd wager a C'tan could be defeated or at least sufficiently weakened by some kind of warp based weapon.

Breaching a shard's necrodermis will 'scatter it to the galactic winds'. pg.40 of the Necron Codex. This may not mean they're destroyed though i believe it means they are but it certainly defeats them. 





> When you mention it this way, I almost forget about the trillions of necrons that were lost to achieve it, as well as the reality warping power they possess and the knowledge they imparted on the necrons, knowledge and tech which brought even the Old Ones to desparation and defeat.
> 
> I guess none of that matters, nor the fear that the necrons still hold strongly for them and the fact that they only use these beings when they have no other options.


You mean millions of necrons. Page 7. 

If the necrons 'only' lost millions to shatter and imprison the C'tan i'd wager the servants of chaos who number in the billions or trillions, not to mention the infinite number of daemons could eventually do it, especially with actual, inviolable gods on their side. 




> I guess what my point is here, is that only ONE race has ever succeeded in outright defeating and controlling the c'tan. It is arguable whether they have the means to repeat this feat should such action ever be required again. Due to this, I consider them to be one of the highest long term threats in 40k. If enough of them were to break free of necron control (which we can assume is possible as it is stated in the lore) they could do all kinds of large scale damage.


True, the C'tan free would cause horrific damage. Would they be able to meaningfully defeat the Ruinous Powers though? I don't believe there's any mention of the Great Work in the new codex. The 4 are actual gods, immortal and very possibly omnipotent and omniscient or near enough not to matter. By virtue of being undefeatable surely they win by default?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Rems said:


> And yet is is possible. The warp is an impossible realm where anything is possible. I'd wager a C'tan could be defeated or at least sufficiently weakened by some kind of warp based weapon.


The Talismans of Vaul couldn't defeat one c'tan when there were twelve aligned against it. Tech like that simply can't be built by anyone short of the necrons anymore, and even that is not confirmed. 



Rems said:


> Breaching a shard's necrodermis will 'scatter it to the galactic winds'. pg.40 of the Necron Codex. This may not mean they're destroyed though i believe it means they are but it certainly defeats them.


Granted, though I doubt this "kills" them I will concede that it for the most part removes them from the equation. 



Rems said:


> You mean millions of necrons. Page 7.


My mistake, I was thinking of the later entry. :laugh: 



Rems said:


> If the necrons 'only' lost millions to shatter and imprison the C'tan i'd wager the servants of chaos who number in the billions or trillions, not to mention the infinite number of daemons could eventually do it, especially with actual, inviolable gods on their side.


Short of the Chaos Gods literally stepping into the Materium to strike the killing blow to each and every c'tan shard to permanently destroy them, I simply cannot see this happening. The Chaos Marines and Daemons would have to work to breach every last necrodermis body to take the c'tan shards out of the fight. 



Rems said:


> True, the C'tan free would cause horrific damage. Would they be able to meaningfully defeat the Ruinous Powers though? I don't believe there's any mention of the Great Work in the new codex. The 4 are actual gods, immortal and very possibly omnipotent and omniscient or near enough not to matter. By virtue of being undefeatable surely they win by default?


The Chaos Gods don't care enough though to make that kind of direct assault. Which means it's up to their servants and mortal followers, warriors and slaves who CAN be defeated. The Chaos Gods' power is only as strong as the flow of emotion allows. 


The argument here seems to be that the gods themselves need to be killed for them to not count as contenders. This isn't the case. As you said, the c'tan can be breached and scattered, this doesn't necessarily mean they're dead but it does place them in a position where they cannot affect the scales to anywhere near the same degree as if they were still in necrodermis shell. Do you see? 

By lasting victory, I mean holding the lion's share of the galaxy at large. For Chaos, this would mean their *servants *have the biggest holdings, perpetuating war death and whatever else the gods want on a galactic scale. There is still a chance that the necrons could amass enough forces to drive the Chaos Legions to breaking point, or the tyranids could overrun all life and starve the gods and therefore their servants of enough power to continue the fight. 

You're arguing the gods cannot be killed makes them automatic winners, but keep in mind that they held very little sway in the time before the War in Heaven and for a long time after. Such a time could easily arise again under the right circumstances.


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## CardShark (Dec 20, 2010)

Here is my view on how GW would end it. Rhana Dandra will happen destroying the eldar and creating Ynnead who will defeat slaanesh. The eldar may or may not be reborn in the webway. This will deal a powerful blow to the forces of chaos who will still breach the cadian gate and reach Terra. Here I believe there are several options. The emperor could wake up and help in the fight against chaos. The remaining primarchs will show up on terra as well and do battle! The spezmehreens will defeat the forces of chaos and the emperor may or may not be defeated during the fight (if he even wakes up) lets face it GW would make the marines win and if we are not counting GW's opinion I believe realistically they would win even though they are not even in my top 5 for favorite armies I just believe they would pull it off (end of random marine rant). The orks being to numerous to kill would have their numbers controlled (Thrakka would probably be defeated by Yarrick). The tyranid fleets would be crippled and some random splinters would still exist to harass space ships and what not. I believe the tau wouldn't be whipped out. I think it would be cool if farsight revealed that the ethreals were using some kind of pheromone to control the tau and then led the tau in a revolution against them and maybe join the emperor (not even sure how I feel about that, but these are just my thoughts). The necron situation I believe to be the trickiest. Are they just going to be killed off eventually? Will the silent king fight an epic battle with the Imperium and then lose and realize his time in this galaxy is over and take the remaining necrons and leave the galaxy? Will they hit the snooze button and go back to sleep? I can't really answer the necron situation myself. Oh and the other chaos gods will drastically lose power because man will again have a stronger than ever faith in the Emperor. Anyway those are my thoughts on tying up all the loose ends.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Still not sure about the Necron threat that everyone talks about. I'm not big on the lore, but from what I've read the Necron are changing in nature at the moment.

They used to be the "Fuck it all, let's just cleanse this universe and reclaim it." but lately they're turning more and more into "We want to be made flesh again, how do we do that? We need it!".

If they continue down this path, I have the feeling that they will eventually be so desperate to become flesh that they will be their own demise. I believe that either they will achieve it and be devoured by the Tyranids, or they will spend every last Necron Warrior trying to and cause their own demise in the process because of desperation or carelessness.

Heck who knows - Maybe I'm reading too much into this. But with the above in mind, I still count both Chaos Daemons and Tyranids to be the two biggest forces to be reckoned with. I think it will be down to those two battling it out.


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## Apostle (Jun 29, 2012)

The Imperium I think. or if the Chaos Legions united under their Primarchs again. If it happened that all of the Primarchs defeated or not from the Chaos legions are reborn after several thousand years years (or however many years they vanish for, I don't have the energy to make that accurate) Most Space Marine chapters believe in a resurrection or continued existene of their Primarch. But the Chaos primarchs have only a few truly dead members. The rest are immortal Daemon Princes. If Magnus, Lorgar, Mortarion, Angron and Alpharius/Omegon. Joined with Pertuarbo and Fulgrim would devastate the Imperium. (Of course this is only one situation that is unlikely to happen at the same time)


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Personally, I would write the Necrons off. Their utter reliance on the webway is too much of a handicap.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Personally, I would write the Necrons off. Their utter reliance on the webway is too much of a handicap.


Possibly, but given the other technologies at their disposal (mainly the Null Field Matrices) I feel that they had enough of an equalising factor to at least be a contender.


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## Chaplain-Grimaldus (Aug 4, 2013)

Who wins? GW stock holders become so rich due to endless price increases they are re Bourne as a god in the warp and defeat chaos through legal means.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Chaplain-Grimaldus said:


> Who wins? GW stock holders become so rich due to endless price increases they are re Bourne as a god in the warp and defeat chaos through legal means.


The bitterness in this one is strong. It is weekend soon young padiwan, cleanse yourself of such hateful words


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## Chaplain-Grimaldus (Aug 4, 2013)

Nordicus said:


> The bitterness in this one is strong. It is weekend soon young padiwan, cleanse yourself of such hateful words


Yeah been a hard week lol.

On topic, I think Abaddon eventually gets through to terra. It's prophesied.

All the Phoenix lords will die, Dante will have a show down with Abby at the foot of the golden throne.

All die in a horrifying inferno. Then somewhere, someone, starts it all again.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> The Chaos Gods don't care enough though to make that kind of direct assault. Which means it's up to their servants and mortal followers, warriors and slaves who CAN be defeated. The Chaos Gods' power is only as strong as the flow of emotion allows.


1) The last time someone threatened Chaos, what did they do? Steal his sons, destroy everything he built, effectively kill him and remake his Empire in their image. If Chaos feels threatened, they will intervene.
2) As you say, the Gods don't care much about the material realm. Thus, can any defeat there be considered as 'loss' for them? If it isn't important to them, then it isn't a loss to loose it. 



> The argument here seems to be that the gods themselves need to be killed for them to not count as contenders. This isn't the case. As you said, the c'tan can be breached and scattered, this doesn't necessarily mean they're dead but it does place them in a position where they cannot affect the scales to anywhere near the same degree as if they were still in necrodermis shell. Do you see?


But can the Gods be compromised to a similar degree? A C'tan without its necrodermis is almost completely powerless, a God without lots of emotion is simply hungry. Is a hungry foe a defeated one? A starving animal is at its most dangerous.



> By lasting victory, I mean holding the lion's share of the galaxy at large. For Chaos, this would mean their *servants *have the biggest holdings, perpetuating war death and whatever else the gods want on a galactic scale.


I think it's a mistake to conflate the Gods and their followers in this case. The followers of Chaos are obviously fairly concerned with the material realm, and their fate is directly tied to it. I would call a victory for the mortal forces of Chaos unlikely. However, the Gods themselves don't need their followers to win. It doesn't matter one lick to them who is perpetuating war, etc. Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows and all that. It's the same mistake that leads to people calling the Horus Heresy a loss for Chaos, when it clearly wasn't. 



> You're arguing the gods cannot be killed makes them automatic winners, but keep in mind that they held very little sway in the time before the War in Heaven and for a long time after. Such a time could easily arise again under the right circumstances.


But is that a loss? The Chaos Gods have repeatedly shown themselves to be more interested in their own War than in the fate of the material realm. Does limiting their influence on the material realm (and for the record we don't really know how limited their influence was in the periods you mention) actually reduce their power? We don't know. Arguably it can't, since they are independent of time. Besides which: Everything else in the race can die. Given sufficient time everything that can die will. Therefore given sufficient time the Chaos Gods will be the only player left standing. If everyone else is dead, haven't they lost? If everyone else has lost, haven't you won?


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## son of azurman (Sep 19, 2010)

The way I see it is chaos defeats man.man being cause for the gods minus Spanish means chaos is practically out.tyranids consume all organic matter and move on.necrons being the last ones alive simply go back into slumber.
This theory has lots of errors in it but this was how I was tought it 4 years ago skive just kept by it for the most part


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> But is that a loss? The Chaos Gods have repeatedly shown themselves to be more interested in their own War than in the fate of the material realm. Does limiting their influence on the material realm (and for the record we don't really know how limited their influence was in the periods you mention) actually reduce their power?


We know that the Chaos Gods were linked to the current turbulence in the warp, as their power is dependent on the flow of emotion. The Warp was described as calm during the Old Ones' reign, and for a time when Mankind was expanding his empire through the stars. The main support for this is that they have zero mention during the War in Heaven and that Mankind was able to travel the warp relatively safely enough to colonize the galaxy. 

Whether or not a period of calm actually _reduces_ their power, it does seem to have an effect on how much they in turn influence the materium. I put forth that while their power is constant, their reach is directly tied to the flow of emotion at any given time period. For example, Slaanesh had little to zero reach in the time before his birth since the eldar were the first to practice hedonism on a large enough scale to make his power truly felt in the Materium. We have no direct references to anything much earlier than that, but I would presume the other gods felt similar limitations during their own first reaches into our universe. 

My point being, if the source of their power is reduced (such as by an all consuming galactic predator or a race of genocidal alien machines) I believe such limitations could in time affect them again. Even if not completely, enough for someone else to gain the final advantage and take it will be all they need. 



MEQinc said:


> Everything else in the race can die. Given sufficient time everything that can die will. Therefore given sufficient time the Chaos Gods will be the only player left standing. If everyone else is dead, haven't they lost? If everyone else has lost, haven't you won?


Warp Gods have died before. But that's irrelevant, as I said death is not required for a race to have lost. And you're assuming that the other races WILL die when you cannot confirm this. We have ONE example of a c'tan dying under extrenuous circumstances, an occurrence that had never happened before or since. Because of that do you then take it as a guarantee that all of them will eventually die as well? 



MEQinc said:


> I think it's a mistake to conflate the Gods and their followers in this case.


Well to be fair, the followers and daemons are who I was actually referring to and I said that a few times. You brought the gods into it.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Whether or not a period of calm actually _reduces_ their power, it does seem to have an effect on how much they in turn influence the materium. I put forth that while their power is constant, their reach is directly tied to the flow of emotion at any given time period. For example, Slaanesh had little to zero reach in the time before his birth since the eldar were the first to practice hedonism on a large enough scale to make his power truly felt in the Materium. We have no direct references to anything much earlier than that, but I would presume the other gods felt similar limitations during their own first reaches into our universe.


That's a pretty solid theory, and one I agree with.



> My point being, if the source of their power is reduced (such as by an all consuming galactic predator or a race of genocidal alien machines) I believe such limitations could in time affect them again. Even if not completely, enough for someone else to gain the final advantage and take it will be all they need.


My question again would be: is that a loss? I don't think we can say that losing influence over the material realm is something that Chaos would be overly concerned with.



> Warp Gods have died before.


Indeed they have. But the Chaos Gods have not. The Eldar pantheon is a different beast from Chaos, what holds true for one does not necessarily hold true for the other.



> But that's irrelevant, as I said death is not required for a race to have lost.


It's not required but certainly death does equal a loss. I'm not denying that another faction could claim victory, possibly for a very long period of time but eventually they will all die.



> And you're assuming that the other races WILL die when you cannot confirm this. We have ONE example of a c'tan dying under extrenuous circumstances, an occurrence that had never happened before or since. Because of that do you then take it as a guarantee that all of them will eventually die as well?


It's simple physics, everything decays given enough time. Sure that time could be billions upon billions of years, but it will still happen. Given a sufficient period of time any act, however improbable, can be considered guaranteed. The death of the C'tan is highly improbable so clearly it will require a very long period of time to be considered guaranteed, but it will still happen.



> Well to be fair, the followers and daemons are who I was actually referring to and I said that a few times. You brought the gods into it.


Well to be fair, your OP just refers to Chaos and mentions both the Gods and their followers, which is at least a little ambiguous.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> It's simple physics, everything decays given enough time. Sure that time could be billions upon billions of years, but it will still happen. Given a sufficient period of time any act, however improbable, can be considered guaranteed. The death of the C'tan is highly improbable so clearly it will require a very long period of time to be considered guaranteed, but it will still happen.


How can you claim this as a certainty? The c'tan are cited as being tied to the very fabric of the universe and therefore nigh impossible to destroy. I could argue that their death won't occur until the universe itself finally collapses because there is no naturally occurring phenomenon capable of ending their existence. 



MEQinc said:


> My question again would be: is that a loss? I don't think we can say that losing influence over the material realm is something that Chaos would be overly concerned with.


Well it certainly isn't a lasting victory over the materium is it?


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Keep in mind that the Tyranids aren't here to stay. To my understanding, they have come from another galaxy, once that they've already scoured of all life. Even if they do destroy the Milky Way, they will simply move on.

So whomever survives their passing will be inheritors of the Galaxy. That may well mean the Chaos Legions, the Necrons, maybe even a few crafty Eldar and certainly the Dark Eldar. Humanity, Orks, and Tau may not be so fortunate.


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