# The key to saving the Golden Throne. And maybe even the Imperium.



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Solemnace.

Lot of spoilers below from the new Necron codex.



So apparently the planet of Solemnace is a treasure trove of ancient artifacts from various civilizations from various points in time.

We have one Inquisitor stumble upon a gallery full of relics from the Dark Age of Technology and it's hinted that perhaps even a Primarch resides there in stasis.

So were the Imperium to raid the planet and loot all the devices and relics, do you think it is possible they would be able to fix the Golden Throne or perhaps even revitalize the Emperor's corpse? Empowering the Imperium with new technologies would happen guaranteed. 

And what about the Primarch? Could he be one of the loyal sons who vanished after the Great Scouring or perhaps even one of the missing Primarchs?


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

It depends entirely on what the Mechanicus decide to do with what's found, they're hardly the most forward looking of folks.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

In my opinion the primary thing hindering the Imperium's ability to repair the Golden Throne is a lack of understanding. Simply put they don't appear know how it works. This means that even with the tools or replacement parts I'm not sure they'd be able to fix it. Think of it this way; your computer breaks down. Now, seeing as you're on the internet you likely know how to use a computer but, assuming you're not a computer technician, you likely don't know that much about how they work on the inside. So even if you have access to a treasure-trove of spare parts for your computer you will still have a very, very hard time figuring out which pieces are broken and how to replace them without further damaging the machine. This would be further complicated in the case of the Golden Throne by the fact that you can't even turn off the machine to fix it and by the fact that the only person who ever understood how it works is basically dead (plus IIRC the Emperor didn't even build the Throne he just found and adapted it).

As for the Primarch thing. I figure it would be pretty damn difficult for the Necrons to have not only defeated a Primarch (seeing as they've proved pretty much unstoppable in the past) but did so without killing him and managed to imprision him. To me it seems much more likely that this object is either something else entirely or the preserved body of a Primarch they managed to kill (most likely Khan because he was in the webway). Thus pretty much eliminating any possibility of a Primarch being returned this way.

All that being said there's absoulutely zero reason for the Imperium not to invade this planet as I'm sure it's got tons of other goodies.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

Then again... anyone can be stopped. Who knows maybe he was knocked out or something. Primarchs can be beaten. I agree with MEQ Inc on the Golden Throne topic, but then again if it was and not saying it is a Primarch the Imperium would have another great leader to turn two since he would be the only surviving Primarch if he was a loyalist. 

Then again I like the speculation of maybe it's our missing primarchs but that really doesn't line up because in other books Russ and others say things about how they don't want to talk about them. But then again maybe they locked them up and put them in stasis that way. But then undoubtably they probably wouldn't be on the Imperium's side for oh you know locking them up for a long time. 

It's a fun thread and idea though


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The Mechanicum I think have trouble knowing how to repair the Golden Throne because they lack the technological means to do so moreso than them having no clue how to wield a monkey wrench.

I think they have a very basic understanding of how it works otherwise they would not of been able to maintain it for all these years.

There could be STC's there as well with instructions on how to recreate a new Golden Throne or to creating technology that could help in repairing it.

It could be a wounded or unconscious Primarch the Necrons swooped in and grabbed or one they overwhelmed.



Emperors Mercy said:


> Then again I like the speculation of maybe it's our missing primarchs but that really doesn't line up because in other books Russ and others say things about how they don't want to talk about them. But then again maybe they locked them up and put them in stasis that way. But then undoubtably they probably wouldn't be on the Imperium's side for oh you know locking them up for a long time.


All we know is that Russ and perhaps the Word Bearers played a part in ending one of the missing Legions but as to what happened to their Primarchs no one knows.

Why wouldn't they be on the Imperium's side? Are you implying they locked them in stasis and the Necrons happily picked them up? lol

The bit about it possibly being the Khan is very interesting, I forgot he ran off into the Webway.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

The Necrons defeated and enslaved gods; I'm fairly certain they can take a mere primarch (Though, who says they had to fight him? Trazyn could have set a trap for him instead of trying to fight him.) Also, the Necrons would have no idea what to do with the Golden Throne. Anything in the Mechanicum arsenal, i.e. Titans, Land Raiders, STCs, the Necrons would probably laugh at as stupidly primitive. But the Throne is a massive warp/stasis field generator, and the Crons have no idea how to mess with warp stuff. The got into the Webway because a C'tan showed them how, although how it knew how to do that I have no idea. I guess it's just slightly not warpy enough to allow them to understand it. Also, yes, they can somehow also imprison daemons inside Tesseract Labyrinths. Go figure. The fluff is contradicting and vague in several places, but that's another topic.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

SoulGazer said:


> Also, the Necrons would have no idea what to do with the Golden Throne. Anything in the Mechanicum arsenal, i.e. Titans, Land Raiders, STCs, the Necrons would probably laugh at as stupidly primitive.


So why would you think they would not know how to repair it? And who said anything about them having to come to the Imperium's aid (though I can seeing it possibly happening as they would know how to deal with the Imperium while Chaos is something they simply cannot cope with other than creating devices that sever the Warp's connection to reality though such devices require vast sums of power and resources)?



SoulGazer said:


> But the Throne is a massive warp/stasis field generator, and the Crons have no idea how to mess with warp stuff.


It is a tool the Emperor used to breach the Webway using his psychic powers for he had no other option. The main purpose of the Emperor sitting on the Golden Throne is to plug the holes with his powers while at the same time to hinder the ravaging effects of time on his physical body to allow him to direct the Astrominican. So really it has nothing to do with the Warp.

If the Eldar had any common sense, they would have collapsed the daemon-infested sections long ago in exchange for the Emperor's oath not to fight with them or something like that. 

But perhaps they are content with an Emperor-less Imperium, as it is something they can deal with militarily speaking.



SoulGazer said:


> The got into the Webway because a C'tan showed them how, although how it knew how to do that I have no idea.


The C'tan are masters of anything within the material realm and know all its secrets and the Webway doesn't directly involve the Warp. It simply bypasses through it.



SoulGazer said:


> I guess it's just slightly not warpy enough to allow them to understand it. Also, yes, they can somehow also imprison daemons inside Tesseract Labyrinths. Go figure. The fluff is contradicting and vague in several places, but that's another topic.


Daemons and the C'tan are a form of energy and it's about time this clarification was made rather then the former being purely supernatural beings.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

I never thought about the possibility of the guy on Solemnace possibly being a Primarch...that's an interesting idea though. Wonder if Trazyn would be willing to trade for him.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The way the body was described seemed too special to simply being a regular Astartes.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> So really it has nothing to do with the Warp.


It has everything to do with the warp. It's not just a seat with a stasis field attached to a Stargate, it's a focusing device for the Emperor's power. It's connected to the Astronomican, which is also powered directly by the Emperor. He's the only thing that makes any of this stuff work, without him it would all just fail. He himself is essentially a massive Warp generator using these two objects as conduits for his power, thus they channel warp energies.

Even if the Crypteks attempted to repair it, they might see things they perceived as flaws, when in fact it was the original way the Throne was designed. They don't understand things that channel Warp energies, thus without the original schematics, they would probably do much more harm than good as they fixed the "flaws" they found.

If the Mechanicus has the original schematics but simply lacks the technology to fix the Throne while the Emperor is on it, it is possible the Necrons could do it. If, however, the Mechanicus can't fix it because they have no idea how it was built in the first place, the Necrons would most likely blow the thing up tinkering with it instead of fixing it.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

It is not connected to the Astromincan.

It is simply a tool the Emperor used to breach the Webway gate that just so happened to be underneath the Imperial Dungeon and in his dying moments, told Rogal Dorn how to also make it a life-support unit.

It has nothing to do with the Warp.

The Necrons could without a doubt fix it but again, I don't know why you brought up this notion of the Necrons fixing it.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Emperors Mercy said:


> Then again... anyone can be stopped. Who knows maybe he was knocked out or something. Primarchs can be beaten.


Oh I know, I'm not trying to say they're invincible. My point was more that killing or imprisioning a Primarch would be a big deal and something you would probably hear more about than a brief mention of a big dude in fancy armour.



Malus Darkblade said:


> I think they have a very basic understanding of how it works otherwise they would not of been able to maintain it for all these years.


One of the fundamental things about the Mechanicus (and 40k in general) is that they don't know how things work. They keep them running through poorly understood rituals not through any understanding of how the machine actually functions. This is true of things as 'simple' as tanks I imagine it is especially true of a one-of-a-kind piece of tech like the Throne.



> There could be STC's there as well with instructions on how to recreate a new Golden Throne or to creating technology that could help in repairing it.


Given that the Emperor either built it personnally or adapted alien tech their is definitely no STC and likely to be no instructions for it.



> Why wouldn't they be on the Imperium's side?


Because the Imperium either destroyed them and their Legion or abandoned them to their fate. That's not something likely to win you any friends.



Malus Darkblade said:


> It is a tool the Emperor used to breach the Webway using his psychic powers for he had no other option. The main purpose of the Emperor sitting on the Golden Throne is to plug the holes with his powers while at the same time to hinder the ravaging effects of time on his physical body to allow him to direct the Astrominican. So really it has nothing to do with the Warp.


I like that. You state 'it uses psykic powers to block a warp breach' but that this has 'nothing to do with the warp'. Contradiciton much?

Plus the Throne does much more than that. It created and supports a section of webway like tunnel, blocks the warp breach in said tunnel, helps keep the Emperor 'alive' and much more.

EDIT: The Astronomicon is basically the Emperor's soul-light reflected in the warp. He creates it naturally but because he's almost dead they have to sacrifice psykers to help him out. This is certainly connected to the functioning of the Throne, even if it was not initially designed that way.



> If the Eldar had any common sense, they would have collapsed the daemon-infested sections long ago in exchange for the Emperor's oath not to fight with them or something like that.


1) The Emperor is almost certainly not going to keep that deal, even if he were in any position to make it. Remember that he led his species in a crusade to exterminate *all* xenos, including the Eldar.
2) The Eldar likely lack the ability to do this. They have collapsed many segments of their webway which have become infested but the section the Throne powers is not 'theirs' it was not made by the Old Ones, it was made by the Emperor. Given that he intended to use this to circumvent and destroy the Eldar I doubt he would have allowed for them to have any power over it.



> The C'tan are masters of anything within the material realm and know all its secrets and the Webway doesn't directly involve the Warp. It simply bypasses through it.


The webway is both of the warp and of reality. I find it a stretch to say it falls entirely within the material realm. Certainly, it is undeniable that warp tech is involved in it's maintenance and creation.



> Daemons and the C'tan are a form of energy and it's about time this clarification was made rather then the former being purely supernatural beings.


Yes but they are very different forms of energy. Energy as it applies in our reality does not hold in the warp. A daemon that crosses over is matter and energy as much as anything else in our reality (and thus can be killed, banished or imprisioned) a daemon in the warp is something else entirely.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> One of the fundamental things about the Mechanicus (and 40k in general) is that they don't know how things work. They keep them running through poorly understood rituals not through any understanding of how the machine actually functions. This is true of things as 'simple' as tanks I imagine it is especially true of a one-of-a-kind piece of tech like the Throne.


Their rituals still have a basis. And the Fabricator General and the higher-ups know the truth behind the rituals.



MEQinc said:


> Given that the Emperor either built it personnally or adapted alien tech their is definitely no STC and likely to be no instructions for it.


The Golden Throne was a relic from the Dark Age of Technology. It is entirely man-made.



MEQinc said:


> Because the Imperium either destroyed them and their Legion or abandoned them to their fate. That's not something likely to win you any friends.


We don't know what happened exactly and if I am not mistaken, we only know that the Wolves + Bearers destroyed one of the missing Legions. 

And besides, I don't think they would have anyone else to side with and after seeing what has happened to their father, I am sure they would let bygones be bygones.



MEQinc said:


> I like that. You state 'it uses psykic powers to block a warp breach' but that this has 'nothing to do with the warp'. Contradiciton much?
> 
> Plus the Throne does much more than that. It created a supports a section of webway like tunnel, blocks the warp breach in said tunnel, helps keep the Emperor 'alive' and much more.


The Emperor is the most powerful psycher to have ever lived. He and other psychers of such power can bend the laws of reality to their will using the Warp hence why only he or Magnus could achieve this feat. 

_"Yet as confounding as these technologies might be to the other races of the galaxy, there is one enemy against whom they are no defense. To the Daemons of the Warp such technoligcal conjurings are merely another flavour of existence to be corrutped and devoured."
_

Nothing is immune to the touch of Chaos.

The Golden Throne was a device made during the DaoT and during those times humanity was staunchly against the Warp and given what happened, had no idea on how to combat or use the Warp.



MEQinc said:


> 1) The Emperor is almost certainly not going to keep that deal, even if he were in any position to make it. Remember that he lead his species in a crusade to exterminate *all* xenos, including the Eldar.


In Horus Rising, Horus was of the opinion that the Emperor would make some exceptions to this rule if it served humanity. Also, check out the recent dealings between the Grey Knights, the most xenophobic warriors of the Imperium and the Necrons.

Exceptions are made and will be made in the war against Chaos.



MEQinc said:


> 2) The Eldar likely lack the ability to do this. They have collapsed many segments of their webway which have become infested but the section the Throne powers is not 'theirs' it was not made by the Old Ones, it was made by the Emperor. Given that he intended to use this to circumvent and destroy the Eldar I doubt he would have allowed for them to have any power over it.


The Emperor found a gate underneath the Imperial Dungeon. He used his psychic power coupled with the technologies of the Golden Throne to force his way through. So no, he did not create his own Webway.



MEQinc said:


> The webway is both of the warp and of reality. I find it a stretch to say it falls entirely within the material realm. Certainly, it is undeniable that warp tech is involved in it's maintenance and creation.


The Old Ones had to create lesser races that were reactive to the Warp indicating that they were not powerful psykers or perhaps lacked any entirely. The Webway was their creation.


Now BRB, watching the MLG.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Their rituals still have a basis. And the Fabricator General and the higher-ups know the truth behind the rituals.


Yes their rituals have a basis but in ritualizing a sequence of events and then passing it down for thousands of years the exact reasoning behind them will be diluted, corrupted or lost altogether. And that is merely your suposition that the higher-ups know what's going on, there isn't really any evidence to suggest that's the case. 

Again I'll reiterate. The loss of knowledge is a fundamental theme of 40k. The idea that this would apply to relatively common 'low' tech things like tanks or terminator armour but not to unique peices of advanced tech is pretty silly.



> The Golden Throne was a relic from the Dark Age of Technology. It is entirely man-made.


Really? I was pretty sure the Emperor made/adapted it and that they didn't think it was human tech (or completely human tech). Obviously I could be wrong so I would appreciate a source on that.



> We don't know what happened exactly and if I am not mistaken, we only know that the Wolves + Bearers destroyed one of the missing Legions.


We don't know exactly what happened but here's what we do know. Two Legions disappeared and were stricken from Imperial records. There are heavy implications that at least one of those Legions were destroyed. Other Primarchs refer to 'seperate tragedies' but Dorn seems to believe that the Primarchs or their Legions are still somehow available to aid him (Malcador says it would be a bad idea). This suggests that whatever happened to the Primarchs the Imperium either did it, or could have stopped it. Niether course of action is likely to have made a positive impression on the missing Primarchs.



> And besides, I don't think they would have anyone else to side with and after seeing what has happened to their father, I am sure they would let bygones be bygones.


Seeing as they're Primarchs they could pretty much side with themselves. And fatherly love was not exactly the Emperor's strong suit, stands to reason that any Primarch he destroyed or abandoned would not have been high on his 'make nice to' list.



> The Emperor is the most powerful psycher to have ever lived. He and other psychers of such power can bend the laws of reality to their will using the Warp hence why only he or Magnus could achieve this feat.
> 
> _"Yet as confounding as these technologies might be to the other races of the galaxy, there is one enemy against whom they are no defense. To the Daemons of the Warp such technoligcal conjurings are merely another flavour of existence to be corrutped and devoured."_
> 
> ...


I'm gonna be totally honest with you here... I'm not sure where you're going with this. The Throne is not corrupted by Chaos. It does however help focus the Emperor's psykic might, a feat which can only be done by warp techonolgy, and apply it to the warp, which again is a warp tech feat.



> The Golden Throne was a device made during the DaoT and during those times humanity was staunchly against the Warp and given what happened, had no idea on how to combat or use the Warp.


Assuming that you are correct about the Thrones origins (see above) there is nothing to suggest that humanity was stauchy anti-warp at any point in it's history prior to the modern Imperium. The DAoT resulted in numerous scientific advancements, several of which are primarily warp tech, and a scattering and fragmenting of humanity. Numerous societies from this time period were found to be actively Chaos worshipping during the Great Crusade.



> In Horus Rising, Horus was of the opinion that the Emperor would make some exceptions to this rule if it served humanity. Also, check out the recent dealings between the Grey Knights, the most xenophobic warriors of the Imperium and the Necrons.


Yet Horus' view was never vindicated, so we have no idea whether he was correct. The GK operate without the Emperor's supervision or approval (because he's dead) so anything they do provides no indication of the Emperor's view on the subject (after all he wanted a secular Imperium, is that the Imperium that the GK currently serve?),



> The Emperor found a gate underneath the Imperial Dungeon. He used his psychic power coupled with the technologies of the Golden Throne to force his way through. So no, he did not create his own Webway.


He forced a path into a broken and abandoned section of the webway (note the path, which he would have had to create) and then managed to restore and reconnect this section to the webway proper. This is the region Magnus broke, because it was weaker than the rest of the webway. 



> The Old Ones had to create lesser races that were reactive to the Warp indicating that they were not powerful psykers or perhaps lacked any entirely. The Webway was their creation.


The Old Ones actually seem to have existed in both the warp and reality, which is different from being a psyker to be sure but definitely implies/necessitates a strong connection to the warp. The lesser races were made because a) they liked fucking around with people and b) they needed their help in the war.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Yes their rituals have a basis but in ritualizing a sequence of events and then passing it down for thousands of years the exact reasoning behind them will be diluted, corrupted or lost altogether. And that is merely your suposition that the higher-ups know what's going on, there isn't really any evidence to suggest that's the case.


New technology is created all the time but given the massiveness of the Imperium and the corruption, this technology will always be lost in the chaos.  And when they do actually send out some new tech, it is often lost to xenos pirates or Chaos raids.



MEQinc said:


> I'm gonna be totally honest with you here... I'm not sure where you're going with this. The Throne is not corrupted by Chaos. It does however help focus the Emperor's psykic might, a feat which can only be done by warp techonolgy, and apply it to the warp, which again is a warp tech feat.


My point was that the Webway has nothing to do with the Warp but that does not stop Chaos from corrupting it.



MEQinc said:


> Assuming that you are correct about the Thrones origins (see above) there is nothing to suggest that humanity was stauchy anti-warp at any point in it's history prior to the modern Imperium. The DAoT resulted in numerous scientific advancements, several of which are primarily warp tech, and a scattering and fragmenting of humanity. Numerous societies from this time period were found to be actively Chaos worshipping during the Great Crusade.


They had witch-hunts when psykers first started to pop up. Humanity back then did not know of the Chaos powers at the time and probably chalked up the daemons they encountered as being a source of xenos, etc. They simply created the Geller field to protect their ships.

During the age of strife, obviously many planets fell to chaos and began to worship them.



MEQinc said:


> Yet Horus' view was never vindicated, so we have no idea whether he was correct. The GK operate without the Emperor's supervision or approval (because he's dead) so anything they do provides no indication of the Emperor's view on the subject (after all he wanted a secular Imperium, is that the Imperium that the GK currently serve?)


If an Astartes, perhaps the most blind and ignorant asset of the Imperium, can think outside his psychoindoctrination that xenos = bad no matter what, then it must mean that times are changing and that the threat of Chaos warrants extreme measures. Something the GK have accepted.



MEQinc said:


> He forced a path into a broken and abandoned section of the webway (note the path, which he would have had to create) and then managed to restore and reconnect this section to the webway proper. This is the region Magnus broke, because it was weaker than the rest of the webway.


Magnus broke through it not because it was the weakest section but because he was empowered by Tzeentech or some other Daemon.

And again, he did not create his own Webway. It was not abandoned because the Emperor took out all opposition during the Secret War.



MEQinc said:


> The Old Ones actually seem to have existed in both the warp and reality, which is different from being a psyker to be sure but definitely implies/necessitates a strong connection to the warp. The lesser races were made because a) they liked fucking around with people and b) they needed their help in the war.


The Old Ones resided in the material realm. They created the Webway to bounce around the galaxy. It is not stated anywhere to my knowledge that they resided elsewhere.

They created the Eldar, Orks, etc. to combat the combined threat of the Necrons and the C'tan, enemies they knew were weak to the Warp and indicating that their psychic abilities alone was not suffiecient, assuming they had any.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> New technology is created all the time but given the massiveness of the Imperium and the corruption, this technology will always be lost in the chaos. And when they do actually send out some new tech, it is often lost to xenos pirates or Chaos raids.


Never said that wasn't true, though it isn't really. I said that they forget knowledge. Meaning they forget things they used to know, not that they don't learn new things. Thousands of years of ritualization is going to cause a loss of knowledge. That they can invent new things (which they do very rarely) is not going to get that knowledge back.



> My point was that the Webway has nothing to do with the Warp but that does not stop Chaos from corrupting it.


Well you're wrong about the webway. It exists in between the two, part warp and part material, distinct from either.

And I was talking about the Throne. Which utilizes psykic abilty to fight daemons (in obviously over-simplified terms) both of which are warp constructs.



> They had witch-hunts when psykers first started to pop up. Humanity back then did not know of the Chaos powers at the time and probably chalked up the daemons they encountered as being a source of xenos, etc. They simply created the Geller field to protect their ships.


Exactly. This isn't 'staunchy anti-warp' this is 'ignorant of the Ruinious Powers' which is exactly the situation the Emperor puts them back to during the Great Crusade. As you admit, warp technology was created during this period and the warp was utilized to a far greater extent than it had been previously. These is not the actions of a group that is opposed to the warp.



> If an Astartes, perhaps the most blind and ignorant asset of the Imperium, can think outside his psychoindoctrination that xenos = bad no matter what, then it must mean that times are changing and that the threat of Chaos warrants extreme measures. Something the GK have accepted.


Times are certainly changing. The Imperium of today is not the Imperium the Emperor envisioned. It is possible that the Emperor, were he magically returned to life, would change with the times. It is equally possible that he would not. This does not seem to me like the kind of risk the Eldar would be willing to take for little to no gain of their own.



> And again, he did not create his own Webway.


Except he did. We're clearly going around in circles on this but still. The Horus Heresy artbooks pretty much state something to this effect. I don't have a copy so I'll just quote a section off Lexicanum which directly references the artbooks (I realize Lexicanum isn't a terribly reliable source but it serves for now) "He sent armies of workers through the portal and had them construct a new short section of Webway linking to the rest of the abandoned Eldar network. Since the original Webway was built of a psychically resistant material which the humans could not replicate, the Emperor used his powers, via the Golden Throne, to protect the human-built section from the Warp." 



> The Old Ones resided in the material realm. They created the Webway to bounce around the galaxy. It is not stated anywhere to my knowledge that they resided elsewhere.


Hmm, my bad. I coulda sworn that was in the old Necron codex but apparently not.



> They created the Eldar, Orks, etc. to combat the combined threat of the Necrons and the C'tan, enemies they knew were weak to the Warp and indicating that their psychic abilities alone was not suffiecient, assuming they had any.


'Not sufficient' does not come close to 'none at all'. The Old Ones were outnumbered and outclassed in the material realm so they created armies to help them level the playing field. The mere fact that they created as powerfully psykic a race as the Eldar (and the Orks in their own unique way) indicates a great deal of power, control and understanding of the warp.


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## -Bosco- (Mar 11, 2011)

Wasn't it said somewhere he found the Golden Throne on some world perhaps he traded one of his sons for it  doesn't the new fluff mention the necrons were now active in some shape or form before and during the heresy?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Anyone fancy quoting the possible primarch part? Perked my interest quite a bit.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The sunken chambers are crowded with artefacts of all forms: the fabled wraithbone choir of Altnasar, the preserved head of Sebastian Thor, the ossified husk of an Enslaver and a giant of a man clad in baroque power armour, his face contorted in a permanent scream- to name but a few.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

The necrons have no idea how to deal with the warp? So the plyons they were building to shut down the materiums warp connection is what, a lucky guess? The have no warp presence and it is anathema to them. The necrons predate the eldar in tech savy and ability. Add to that they were working with direct contact of the Void Dragon and I think the golden throne (which is high tech duct tape because the emperor couldn't duplicate the psychic sheath the eldar could and had to provide it himself) isn't as high tech to other races as it is to the Imperium. The eldar would not even need a golden throne or astronomican as their webway and sheath provided safe warp travel.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Hmmm, interesting. How on earth did they get hold of Thors head i wonder, would have thought Thor would have been burried/entombed or other on Terra or somewhere else highly reverant. The potential Primarch is interesting though, didn't end well for whomever it is. Personally i don't think it would be the Khan, I still reckon theres a good chance the Khan is imprisoned in Commorragh. Russ aand Corax are surely in the Eye, dead, alive or worse. Vulkans a possibility, hell all his sons are off on a highly elaborate treasure hunt as it is. Could even be Alpharius or Omegon though.


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## Wuzntlistening (Nov 19, 2011)

Very sorry for the noob question but what's wrong with the throne? 

Forgive my noobness!


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

It's failing. Kind of like an Xbox red ring of death, only the red ring is the Golden Throne and the Xbox is an incomprehensibly powerful psyker who is looking almost as worse for wear as Jackie Stallone....almost.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

@ AOB
LOL i like the reference

@Malus
Sorry for not responding earlier but I don't know if he was one of the unknowns or those they don't talk about that he would exactly be in good standing with the Emp. You know one of those hey i've been missing 10000 years did anyone look for me type thing.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

To elaborate on the red ring of death analogy, in this case microsoft has gone out of business and you don't know how to fix an xbox. Honestly maybe you need this to happen. I like to think that the Khan is still in the webway hunting down the dark eldar with his warriors. I think the Khan is good enough to evade and hunt the way the 13th say Russ is still doing in the eye. Corax on the other hand while a badass looked like he was kind of in the same " I want oblivion" kick Fulgrim was so he may have wanted to die.....maybe not.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> The necrons have no idea how to deal with the warp? So the plyons they were building to shut down the materiums warp connection is what, a lucky guess?


The Necrons do not and can not utilize the warp. This means that they have no reason and no ability to create technology that uses the warp to function. Note that the pylons were created specifically to seperate the warp from reality, whereas the Throne channels pyskic energy for warp-based purposes. These are two completely different areas and the Necrons have zero experience in one of them.



> The necrons predate the eldar in tech savy and ability. Add to that they were working with direct contact of the Void Dragon and I think the golden throne (which is high tech duct tape because the emperor couldn't duplicate the psychic sheath the eldar could and had to provide it himself) isn't as high tech to other races as it is to the Imperium. The eldar would not even need a golden throne or astronomican as their webway and sheath provided safe warp travel.


And yet neither the Necrons or the Eldar have the technical ability to do what the Throne does. Both would love to have access to it, or something similar, yet niether has any idea how to create their own. So clearly the Throne is pretty technologically impressive.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> So clearly the Throne is pretty technologically impressive.


I'll respectfully disagree with that. The Throne is nothing but a huge focusing device with a stasis field thrown on. By itself, it probably isn't all that amazing. It is the Emperor who powers the whole thing, he is the generator(apart from whatever keeps the stasis field up.) As with most Imperium technology, I'd guess that both the Necrons and the Eldar would call the Throne vulgar, crude, and primitive. It does, however, get the job done if you have something as ungodly powerful as the Emperor attached to it. The Emperor was creating and holding open the human Webway at the same time he was powering the Astronomican; _by himself._ He only needed help to power the astronomican(via the Astropathic Choir) after Magnus busted open the Terran Webway, causing it to fracture and be invaded by countless daemons.

Also consider that the Emperor was powering the Astronomican while he was out in the Great Crusade fighting things. The books have only thus far hinted at just how mind-numbingly powerful the Emperor is, but the Collected Visions gives a much clearer look at what he is and just how much he can do.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

SoulGazer said:


> I'll respectfully disagree with that. The Throne is nothing but a huge focusing device with a stasis field thrown on. By itself, it probably isn't all that amazing. It is the Emperor who powers the whole thing, he is the generator(apart from whatever keeps the stasis field up.)


Well, we don't actually know how much the Throne is doing and how much the Emperor is doing (or even how alive the Emperor might be). However we do know that the Throne was necessary for the human webway (suggesting that it does more than simply focus power) and also that the original plan was for Magnus to run it and also that Malcador did run it, albiet briefly (indicating less 'power' input than the Emperor is required). All in all I would suggest that the Throne is critical to maintaining the human made webway and thus does things that the Eldar and the Necrons, with all their crazy tech, are unable to do (though that probably wouldn't stop them from calling it vulgar and crude). 



> He only needed help to power the astronomican(via the Astropathic Choir) after Magnus busted open the Terran Webway, causing it to fracture and be invaded by countless daemons.


I thought he only needed the help after he 'died' and thus his soul-light (which is basically all the Astronomican is) was weakened?


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The sunken chambers are crowded with artefacts of all forms: the fabled wraithbone choir of Altnasar, the preserved head of Sebastian Thor, the ossified husk of an Enslaver and a giant of a man clad in baroque power armour, his face contorted in a permanent scream- to name but a few.


Haha, yeah...when you actually read it out loud, you realize that all this excitement is probably over absolutely nothing. "Giant of a man" really can cover any Space Marine, at all. In hindsight, I think they'd be a bit more tantalizing with the details if it was one of the Primarchs.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> I thought he only needed the help after he 'died' and thus his soul-light (which is basically all the Astronomican is) was weakened?


According to the Collected Visions, the Emperor had to pour more and more of his power into the Webway over time. This was causing the Astronomican to dim and become unstable. Malcador came to the Emperor and suggested they use mortal Psykers to help him out with it and the Emperor agreed. This was before his fight with Horus.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

SonOfStan said:


> Haha, yeah...when you actually read it out loud, you realize that all this excitement is probably over absolutely nothing. "Giant of a man" really can cover any Space Marine, at all. In hindsight, I think they'd be a bit more tantalizing with the details if it was one of the Primarchs.


It's clearly referring to a Primarch. The manner in which the body is described, the mentioning of an important Eldar choir and Sebastian Thor followed by the 'giant of a man' clearly implies it's a Primarch.

And Astartes to Necrons are not giants, the latter are quite tall. A Primarch however is a different story.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> It's clearly referring to a Primarch. The manner in which the body is described, the mentioning of an important Eldar choir and Sebastian Thor followed by the 'giant of a man' clearly implies it's a Primarch.
> 
> And Astartes to Necrons are not giants, the latter are quite tall. A Primarch however is a different story.


"Clearly" implying a Primarch? The description doesn't even warrant its own sentence. The body is described as wearing fancy power armor, aaaaand it's yelling. And is tall. I'm not sure how those three things add up to equal "Primarch." Don't get me wrong, the guy is obviously important if he's in the same collection as Sebastian Thor's head, but again, I don't think we can really draw any conclusions here.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

-Bosco- said:


> Wasn't it said somewhere he found the Golden Throne on some world perhaps he traded one of his sons for it


I am fairly sure that _A Thousand Sons_ briefly mentions that the Emperor unearthed the Golden Throne on Terra, so presumably it is a relic from the Dark Age of Technology and not xenos tech as some suggested.



Malus Darkblade said:


> It's clearly referring to a Primarch. The manner in which the body is described, the mentioning of an important Eldar choir and Sebastian Thor followed by the 'giant of a man' clearly implies it's a Primarch.


The description -

_"...a giant of a man clad in baroque power armour, his face contorted in a permanent scream."_ 

Which if you analysis, literally only tells us that this individual is male (although most likely referring to the individual being human as well), that he is above average height/build, wearing ornate power armour, that he has a face, and that a scream is etched onto his facial features. That is pretty much it. 

- could honestly be anyone. It is obviously not "clearly referring to a Primarch." It could be, but if it is it is a very subtle reference. To be honest, I don't think the lore writers would so casually resign a Primarch to a Necron's fancy museum.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> - could honestly be anyone. It is obviously not "clearly referring to a Primarch." It could be, but if it is it is a very subtle reference. To be honest, I don't think the lore writers would so casually resign a Primarch to a Necron's fancy museum.


Consider Trazyn`s mindset. He preserves what he considers important to the ages. It is therefore logical to assume that the prisoner in question is at the very least someone important. 

So I think that would narrow it down a bit from "anyone." 

A primarch maybe, perhaps a custode? Even if it is simply an astartes then it must be one of significant position to be wearing "baroque power armour."


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> To be honest, I don't think the lore writers would so casually resign a Primarch to a Necron's fancy museum.


GW has approved a lot of silly things.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Trazyn also told Sicarius that he was gonna go grab Guilliman from Macragge. I think it's perfectly acceptable for Trazyn to collect Primarchs when he can. However, I think we can all agree GW kept the description of the individual vague specifically for discussions such as these.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> Consider Trazyn`s mindset. He preserves what he considers important to the ages. It is therefore logical to assume that the prisoner in question is at the very least someone important.
> 
> So I think that would narrow it down a bit from "anyone."
> 
> A primarch maybe, perhaps a custode? Even if it is simply an astartes then it must be one of significant position to be wearing "baroque power armour."


Whoever it is, they're certainly important if they're in the same gallery as Sebastian Thor's head. And heck, maybe it IS a Primarch. But there's so little information that there's really nothing to even speculate on. If more information comes to light on the issue, then maybe it'll make this reference a little more meaningful. 

And I must point out that 'baroque' doesn't necessarily mean important/special. :biggrin: A Chaos Marine with a bunch of wonky spikes and skulls and crap hanging off his armor could be described as wearing 'baroque power armor.' Though again, I'm certain this fellow is anything BUT your garden variety super-human.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

is he missing a hand... i mean it could be dorn...


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I was under the idea they had recovered Dorn's skeletal remains but used his hands to inscribe chapter masters names.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

I believe you are correct I was just trying to illustrate that we could could keep saying could. I suppose we need to get matt ward on the line


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

"Yo Matty? What`s with this screaming dead dude in Trazyn`s freezer?"


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> I was under the idea they had recovered Dorn's skeletal remains but used his hands to inscribe chapter masters names.


You are indeed correct. Encased in amber no less.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

A little off topic but it's kind of weird the entombment options some of the founding legions and their primarchs. The motlen silver they have Sanguinius in on Baal.Then putting Dorn in amber. Is this just because it sounds cool or is there something to these methods?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Consider Trazyn`s mindset. He preserves what he considers important to the ages. It is therefore logical to assume that the prisoner in question is at the very least someone important.


Except Trazyn is insane, so what he considers important isn't necessarily actually important to history. Just food for thought.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Baroque power armour can describe any old suit of power armour (which is a lot of them) and most chaos space marine suits. It's not a give away to primarch level armour. 

The Imperium has 10,000 years worth of history; that's a lot of collectible heroes. Additionally given how the primarchs have currently been treated a vague, throw-away line in a xenos codex seems a strange way of telling us the fate of one of the primarchs. There was no mention of the Khan's fate in the Dark Eldar codex after all.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> Except Trazyn is insane, so what he considers important isn't necessarily actually important to history. Just food for thought.


Is he insane? Where does it say that? I mean, he's definetely not the nicest gentlemen in town, but that doesn't make him crazy per se.


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## g00dd0ct0r (Oct 27, 2011)

The key to saving the Golden Throne. And maybe even the Imperium is in the Emperor back pocket am surprised noone has looked there


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> A little off topic but it's kind of weird the entombment options some of the founding legions and their primarchs. The motlen silver they have Sanguinius in on Baal.Then putting Dorn in amber. Is this just because it sounds cool or is there something to these methods?



Well in the case of Amber its going to preserve it extremely well. You can still find bugs and shit encased in amber from the age of dinosaurs(as seen in Jurrassic Park) and that millions and millions of years ago. So yeah, good preservation properties and i imagine it would look pretty fucking awesome.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Not to mention that Silver as an element is very unreactive so it would too make a good preservative for something.

As for what Trazyn has in the basement. I am not convinced it is a Primarch. Just because it is a giant of a man means practically anything. Read Imperial Armour 10 or Vraks. There are 2 marines there that have a base S of 5 because they are physically bigger than thir normal brethren. To me it is much more likely to be someone like this rather than one of the Primarchs.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Not to mention that Silver as an element is very unreactive so it would too make a good preservative for something.
> 
> As for what Trazyn has in the basement. I am not convinced it is a Primarch. Just because it is a giant of a man means practically anything. Read Imperial Armour 10 or Vraks. There are 2 marines there that have a base S of 5 because they are physically bigger than thir normal brethren. To me it is much more likely to be someone like this rather than one of the Primarchs.





Malus Darkblade said:


> And Astartes to Necrons are not giants, the latter are quite tall. A Primarch however is a different story.


----------------------


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

Yeah, but it doesn't say "giant of a man when compared to Necrons." It just says "giant of a man."


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

But whose Codex is it brohan


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> But whose Codex is it brohan


Doesn't matter, "giant of a man" is comparing the figure to a man (and saying it's bigger) not to a Necron. Space marines fit this, Necrons themselves would fit, hell some stories have regular dudes described as a 'giant of a man' (Bragg I think is porbably described as such).


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> Doesn't matter, "giant of a man" is comparing the figure to a man (and saying it's bigger) not to a Necron. Space marines fit this, Necrons themselves would fit, hell some stories have regular dudes described as a 'giant of a man' (Bragg I think is porbably described as such).


That's pretty much what I'm thinking. There are really way too many 'ifs' at this point.

IF 'giant of a man' means bigger then a Necron...

IF 'baroque power armor' doesn't mean 'baroque' in the usual fashion, and instead means 'the kind of armor a Primarch would wear...'

IF Trazyn has the capability to capture a Primarch in the first place...

IF Trazyn would stick a Primarch Specimen in the same gallery as 'shrunken head' and 'demon fossil...'

Way too many leaps of faith and assumptions for me. :biggrin: I mean, hopefully I'll eat my words over the next few GW publications. I think it'd be really cool to bring back a Primarch. I just don't think that this one passing reference is referring to one.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I think all that stuff is like the bible. You can either take it literally or metaphorically.Like for example, Vulkans sons hunting for relics. Some of the names would indicate something else as The Chalice of Fire. You would think they need to find a cup,but it's a forge ship. Until BL wants to flesh out the actual meaning of the references, it's all up for debate.


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## GoRy (Apr 1, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The Mechanicum I think have trouble knowing how to repair the Golden Throne because they lack the technological means to do so moreso than them having no clue how to wield a monkey wrench.
> 
> I think they have a very basic understanding of how it works otherwise they would not of been able to maintain it for all these years.
> 
> There could be STC's there as well with instructions on how to recreate a new Golden Throne or to creating technology that could help in repairing it.


Having said the above, I got the impression that the Golden Throne was NOT originally designed as a life sustaining device, but created to enable the Emperor (and eventually, humanity) to access the Webway system. General hint being that it would free them of their burden of warp travel. Forgive me however as I cannot recall source.

I don't believe they're likely to find the Golden Throne in a S(*STANDARD*) template construct, it's rather specialised. Also, First and Only (Gaunt) seems to infer that there wasn't just one be all, end all STC but they were speciallised, in the case there, Men of Iron and Weaponry.


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