# Skeletons vs Ghouls



## Pertoleum (Jul 18, 2008)

As a new Vamps player im stuck between whats better, skeletons or crypt ghouls? ive seen my crypt ghouls do a great job ripping apart a flank charge from high elves (seaguard i believe, first game ), but the static res from skeletons is always nice, so what do you guys think?


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## xaiff101 (Jul 7, 2008)

I don't know the points difference, but by looking at the stats line on the GW site. I'd have to go with Crypts ghouls, they have more of a chance of living through a charge from a units of Daemons, and they can strike back and do more damage. That's for sure.


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## Pertoleum (Jul 18, 2008)

their the same points cost, but skeletons can be equipped in more ways, with musicians,champions,magic banners and spears, ghouls can only have a champion

Please do not post individual points costs of items, models or upgrades - squeek


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## xaiff101 (Jul 7, 2008)

Skeletons can have a banner, k, that's 1 combat resolution. But Ghouls can have ranks and outnumber (k, so can skeletons) But not only can Ghouls cause more wounds, they have T4 so they're taking less and doing more. How often do you draw? I mean... Seriously... I don't know if your guys are immune to psychology, but if they are, the musician is pretty useless.
I'm also curious if the skeletons can take any magic banners that would increase their value over that of a ghoul.


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## JokerGod (Jan 21, 2009)

Ghouls are best. Ya you can get more res from Skells but Ghouls do more damage. I play VCs a bit and I fear a charge from Ghouls more then Skells.

And numbers are all the same, you can just keep bringing them all back and grow there numbers like crazy.


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## Pertoleum (Jul 18, 2008)

xaiff101 said:


> I don't know if your guys are immune to psychology, but if they are, the musician is pretty useless.
> I'm also curious if the skeletons can take any magic banners that would increase their value over that of a ghoul.


my guys are immune to psych and dont break from combat so i guess your right about the musician as for standard the only one that i find actually decent for them is the banner of dead legion in hwich they double their unit strength, but i like to save that for my knights, but their is one that allows me to take a +rank bonus, but if i want that to work i shouldnt take spears.

thanks for the help guys, i think im gonna go pure ghouls in my army, against a unit of night goblins i only need 5 wounds( banner,2 ranks,outnumber) to beat them in combat, and if i get a flank or rear its game over


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## Gharof von Carstein (May 19, 2008)

another thing that helps rez with ghouls. take a vamp with walking death or BSB or both  thats more rez for you


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## Drax (Sep 19, 2007)

the musician isn't as useless as you think - say for example you draw - your opponent has a musician, you don't - thats another skeleton gone. if _you_ have a musician and _they_don't, you win by one and if you outnumber them and they aren't ItP, then they autobreak.

the combo that Gharof is suggesting can be made nastier:

Vampire w/ Walking Death, Avatar of Death ( taken as heavy armour and shield for that all important 5+/4+ armour save), Battle Standard Bearer, Warbanner

30 Skeletons w/ full command, Banner of the Endless Nightmare

That means I am starting off with a minimum combat resolution of 8 before I cause any wounds with the unit or if I outnumber the enemy.

The breakdown is: 3 ranks (3) + Endless Nightmare (+1 rank) + standard (+1) Battle Standard (+1) Warbanner (+1) Walking Death (+1) = 8 and then outnumber (+1) = 9

however, only one unit of skeletons can be this good, and mixing the unit types in smaller games makes it harder to raise beyond start size as you'd need Summon Ghouls and Lord of the Dead

on the other hand, skeletons can be equipped with spears, so can make the number of attacks as Ghouls, and even if the front rank dies can attack


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## Pertoleum (Jul 18, 2008)

while the skeletons may be able get spears they lose that rank because to gain the bonus the rank cant be fighting, so i didnt take spears on my skeletons


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## xaiff101 (Jul 7, 2008)

What you're suggesting Drax is that he should make a _Deathstar_ unit with skeletons. But about the musician, again, how often have you tied? The whole time that I've been using my Daemons and the only time that I've tied is when my Masque rear charged a unit of Miners (She died BTW, damn instability D: ). 

30 Skeletons? That's a bit much. How much would a unit that big with a full command cost?

Also about you not wanting to give the Banner of the Dead Legion to the skeletons because you want to give it to the knights. I don't know if it's a Daemons thing only, but I can give multiple units the same banner. There's even an army in the White Dwarf when the Daemons were released with 2 units of Bloodletters, both had Skull Totems (Which suck BTW, Icon of Endless War FTW)

Thanks for the rep , hope I helped some more.


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## Othiem (Apr 20, 2008)

Pertoleum said:


> while the skeletons may be able get spears they lose that rank because to gain the bonus the rank cant be fighting, so i didnt take spears on my skeletons


What the hell are you talking about here? Nowhere is there any ruling about a rank of spears attacking not counting for rank bonus. The two concepts are completely independent. A block of 20 with spears attacking to the front gets the full +3 combat bonus from ranks.


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## Othiem (Apr 20, 2008)

xaiff101 said:


> 30 Skeletons? That's a bit much. How much would a unit that big with a full command cost?


Is it really that much? You wouldn't want to give them spears certainly, but for an anvil unit it works really well. After all, blocks of 25 aren't crazy, and that's only 5 more models. Compare the point cost of 5 skeletons to the point cost of giving all of your vampires Lord of the Dead, and your Necros can boost them back up to 30 as well. And that's that many more points for your vamps to spend on bloodline powers. 



> Also about you not wanting to give the Banner of the Dead Legion to the skeletons because you want to give it to the knights. I don't know if it's a Daemons thing only, but I can give multiple units the same banner. There's even an army in the White Dwarf when the Daemons were released with 2 units of Bloodletters, both had Skull Totems (Which suck BTW, Icon of Endless War FTW)


It's a demon thing. BRB pg 120, paragraph 4: No multiples of magic items.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Pertoleum said:


> while the skeletons may be able get spears they lose that rank because to gain the bonus the rank cant be fighting, so i didnt take spears on my skeletons


The real reason for not taking spears is the "hand weapon and shield rule". Skellingtons with LA and shield have 4+ AS in CC against units attacking them in the front. Add the uselessness of said unit in CC and you should always opt for the save, so good choice 

Skeletons fill the role as "charge-reciveing unit" better then ghouls thanks to saves and possibly more static CR. Ghouls are better attackers tho


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## xaiff101 (Jul 7, 2008)

Skeletons are indeed a charge-receiving unit, and ghouls are the units to charge with. Imagine that, units fulfilling a specific roll an an army?! BLASPHEMY! lol. I'm just poking fun because I'm a Daemons player and all of my units have a specific roll that they're good at. Plaguebearers = charge-receiving units, Daemonettes = light infantry eaters, Horrors = DD and core fillers (lol), Bloodletters = shock troops (Hoping to break you on the turn that they charge).

I could go into detail but no one wants to read all of that on this thread.

But the point that I'm trying to get across is a mixture of both is the way to do it. Having never ending Skeletons holding up a unit while you line your ghouls up for the charge (Have a character raising them). I don't play VC and haven't looked at a codex, but for a 2000 point list I'd probably go with 20-30 skeletons with spears (again, I don't know how much they cost). and then 2 units of 15-20 ghouls (this is me assuming that you need 3+ core like Daemons).


On another note, I didn't think that magic banners counted as _magic items _. I'm probably wrong though.


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## Pertoleum (Jul 18, 2008)

Othiem said:


> What the hell are you talking about here? Nowhere is there any ruling about a rank of spears attacking not counting for rank bonus. The two concepts are completely independent. A block of 20 with spears attacking to the front gets the full +3 combat bonus from ranks.


your right misread the rules, my bad


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## Drax (Sep 19, 2007)

lol - ive drawn combats with that unit plenty of times - frequently when if it wasn't for that set up, i'd have lost!

as for the spears - generally yes, the hand weapon/shield option is superior, however, if you aren't facing an ASF unit, and you successfully cast vanhels's upon that unit, you may manage to avoid attacks back (though on a skeleton's stats its still a longshot).

as for the 30 strong unit, Othiem is spot on - if the starting number is high, it means i can raise back up to that number before requiring a vamp to use LotD in order to increase their numbers - meanwhile casters can concentrate upon raising zombies instead


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## Vorag of Strigos (Feb 25, 2009)

I prefer both , mainly because I can equip my skeletons better, they also have light armour and can carry a magic standard, whilst ghouls have 2 attacks and have poisoned attacks, I may switch 2 of my skeleton regiments for ghouls actually, just to even out the feild a bit, WS3 and T4 is a bit better than WS2 and T3


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## Ancient Tiel' a fier (May 5, 2008)

I always take ghouls over skelies, they are better fighters and more resilient, all skelies have over ghouls is a banner, which a bsb can solve. All this has been mentioned im sure but one other good point is that should the worst happen and your general is killed Ld5 ghouls make better friends than Ld3 skellies.


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