# First three new army books



## cain the betrayer

What do you think that the first three new army books would be? and which ones do you hope it will be?

I think that it will be something along the lines of
1 Vampire counts
2 Empire
3 Warriors of chaos
Just because these armies are one of the most played and thus the most profitable for GW to make a new book for

I hope that the following will be released
1 A real chaos dwarfs army book with a complete range of models all in plastic or finecast.
2 Warriors of chaos what can i say i play them and it would be nice to have a difrent book.
3 Wood elves these guys need a new book really bad even more then bretonia.


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## DecrepitDragon

If memory serves, there is a rumour on the "Carpe Noctum" site, about Vamps release in January. You can find it here:

http://www.vampirecounts.net/Thread-Official-Rumour-Thread-New-Vampire-Counts-Book


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## Abomination

I reckon 2012 will see The Empire, Dwarves and Dark Elves.

Personally I would like to see Warriors Of Chaos (my army), Bretonnia because they really really need a new book and Dark Elves.


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## Alsojames

The Chaos Dwarfs technically do have their own army book with the release of Tamurkhan from Forgeworld.


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## olderplayer

It seems pretty much confirmed on rumors that Vampires our coming out in January. It makes sense given that Vampires have magic lore, bound items, spells, necromansers, and lots of Vampiric and magic items that do not quite fit right within the 8th edition framework. This is consistent with rolling out TK and Ogres that both had unique older magic lores that did not fit within the 8th edition magic structure. Also, skeletons and zombies and cav units need to be substantially recosted in a new book (like they did with Tomb Kings). You might see Vamps being slotted into types (rumors seem to suggest this) consistent with a prior army book with much more limited magic items and vampiric power choices and more 8th edition-style lore or lores (vampire and necromancer). The black coach will be changed a lot given that its rules are a problem in 8th edition with the winds of magic roll and likely in a combo kit (seems to be the trend at GW) with something else that can be played. 

Empire is highly likely to come out with revision, especially given that prayers of sigmar, war priests and arch lectors don't quite fit the 8th edition magic rules and winds of magic and the points costs of some units need to be revised. This is one of the major/most popular armies as well and has fallen out of favour in some groups and needs recosting of the cav units for 8th edition rules. There are rumors of empire leaking out (combined war alter/war wagon kit; some other stuff). 

Wood Elves and Brettonians desperately really need new army books just given the old ages of their prior books (problems with wood elf magic, limited choices in Bretts) and rumors are out that they are in the works. Bretts need cav recosted to fit within 8th edition rules and more units to work with. 

Dwarves are likely the next book after Wood Elves and Bretts in terms of needing to be refreshed. While dwarves now work again and are competitive in 8th edition, they really need additional units/models and revisions to the rune system (expect a substantial reduction in runes and ability to spam runes). 

Warriors of chaos, while competitive also have a dated book, three magic lores, choas gifts, and need some more units (to deal with shooting and faster armies) and repricing of cav units, which are important to this army. 

No rumors on Daemons, but that would be the only remaining army after dwarves and vamps with unique magic items (daemonic items) and with some magic rules that don't fit the 8th edition structure (horrors generating spells). 

Dark Elves do not need a new book and are one of the newer books out there. High elves are an older book than dark elves ad High Elves lack sufficient rare choices and need at least some significant repricing of units, particularly cav units, to be more competitive. 


The newer books that are less likely to come out soon are: Lizardmen; Skaven; and Dark Elves. Beastmen was one of the last 7th edition books and was reportedly written with 8th edition in mind but was a poorly written book that could be fixed with FAQs or a White Dwarf rules revision. 

Remember that GW seems to only roll out 3 WHFB army books a year but GW may be accelerating that pace to 4 (or even five) next year in 8th edition and may be considering supplements (like the Vamps supplement in White Dwarf) to older books as temporary fixes and now that the 8th edition book is out and we are past the Storm of Magic (kind of a gimmick) release. The revenue pop associated with the new books is something that may compel GW to accelerate the pace of rolling out new WHFB army books but also unfortunately cause GW to emphasize new monsters and larger model kits in the new books {like they did with O&G (arach spider, gigantic spider mount, ), TK (sphinx, neco knights/stalkers) and Ogres (firebelly, thundertusk/stonehorn, mourn cav, and ironblaster)}. Fortunately, GW seems to be also promising to keep the older units and models still playable by not discontinuing them in the new books (even if GW offers updated models in plastic or finecast) and allows for some inventory control/cost savings by offering dual model kits. I would not be surprised if the reportedly positive response to Ogres and increase in orders for Ogres spurs on GW in this direction.


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## newt_e

I'd like to see a new Brettonians army book first. Not fussed about the other two (though Wood Elves deserve something soon). 

However, I'm expecting GW to go with the most popular armies, rather than the oldest ones.


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## Troublehalf

Rumours from my friend GW Manager is:

Bret and Wood Elf. Those two will be the next updates.

They are, however, apparently struggling to make a "big kit" for Bret. Each update so far, Orcs... Tomb Kings.... VC and so on, all got 'big kits' plus several smaller ones and some FineCast updates. The Bret's don't really have anything in their lore that could lead to a "big kit". So they are, as I say again, apparently working on lore + idea for it.

Wood Elves are a lot simpler than Bret, there is plenty of stuff lore wise in order to make 'big kits'. So... I expecting a new unit for WE called "Spirit of the Forest" which will be pretty powerful. It's often mentioned in lore "The forest attacking" enemies.

If it does happen, that is, if they make "Spirit of the Forest" I would love to start a WE army just so I could use this model to represent it:



















It's a pretty sexy model, and it's only $59.00.... which is dead cheap for such an awesome model.


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## Warsmith Drewgie

All the rumors about VC being the next book really makes sense. Not only does the magic not fall into sync, but the massive nerfing of fear (which was very necessary in my opinion), makes most of their units over point costed by almost a third. This of course is based on my comparison between new Tomb Kings, current VC and old Tomb Kings. VC skeleton with light armour hand weapon shield -8points. Tomb Kings skeleton with same war gear -5points. Old Tomb Kings Skeleton with the same war gear -8 points. When a person is paying 3 points a model more than they should for the bulk of their armies basic infantry, then it is definitely time for a new book. This is why although there are armies with much older books VC are likely to be next as the rumors suggest. As far as what comes out after them I can't really speculate but I think Wood Elves will be soon mainly because of the change to the skirmisher rules, which has had a big impact on them. I have no theories as to what the 3rd one will be, but as a WOC player I can only hope that is it.


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## DecrepitDragon

I'm with you on everything there. Totally agree. :so_happy:

But. . 



Warsmith Drewgie said:


> which was very necessary in my opinion


And its a big but, fear and terror have been shot to hell far more thoroughly than it ever needed to be. And not just with a rewrite of its own rule, but in conjunction with a few smaller tweaks, such as:

Inspiring presence; changed to include wider ranges under certain conditions. 

Battle Standard; army wide multiple type re-rolls, not just break tests. 

Steadfast; got more ranks? Dont worry about com res.

These all combine to royally shaft armies that rely heavily on psychology to, if not win, then certainly affect useful tactical options. I mean, come on - a terror causing creature thats not quite so scary when I want to charge it? Its only terrifying when its charging eh? Cute and cuddly when its ripping your mates to bits though?:angry:

Sorry. Rant over. :biggrin:

Vamps ( and indeed TK ) need ( needed ) more terror causing creatures to balance the drop in the fear effects.


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## Durzod

Though they desperately need a new book, I fear that Wood Elves will follow their trend of being the last army (along with Beastmen, the redheaded stepchildren of Chaos) put out in each edition.

With the release of the Terrorgeist model, I can see VC being next. Otherwise they'll have to come up with ANOTHER big centerpiece model for the new book. I just hope they don't hamstring them like they did TK (no dedicated healing/raise spell. Really?).

I'd suspect Empire (popular army with easy choices for centerpiece model) and Dwarfs (oldish book with a dedicated following and the only army left with multi-dispel option. Their centerpiece could be the War Balloon from Man-O-War or even a steam/clockwork dreadnaught) to be next out of the chute after that. 

Troublehalf, where'd you find the monster dryad? I swear I've seen it before, but can't remember where.


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## Troublehalf

I did post it on the site a few months ago, but it is from a company called UltraForge. They do lots of Warhammer alternative figures, which add great variety and are pretty cheap.

http://www.ultraforgeminiatures.com/

Is the website.

I suspect the last books will be Beastmen and Lizardmen. Beastmen due to them being split from Chaos and Lizardmen cause... well... they are pretty much just as viable as before. Sure they got nurfed in the current codex, but since Magic got buffed, Slann still rock. I personally want them updated, as they are my army, but I just don't see a need for them to be upgraded soon.

I'd personally liked to see the Coatl added, the giant bird cavalry added, Arcadons added as well as a FW Thunderlizard. I'd also like Temple Guard buffed to 2+ Save, allow Saurus to wear Light Armor (to counter their Initative 1, practically impossible to survive against magic users with Shadow magic) and Kroxigors to get Furious Charge as they lost Great Reach thing. I'm expecting a new type of saurus or skink or something thou.

I was depressed that they've set in stone the Carnosaur being the "top predator" which means there isn't anything better than it in the jungles... unless they scrap that or something.


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## DecrepitDragon

Troublehalf said:


> I'd personally liked to see the Coatl added
> _Good Idea_
> 
> Arcadons added as well as a FW Thunderlizard.
> _Probably not happening_
> 
> I'd also like Temple Guard buffed to 2+ Save
> _What? And watch them shoot up to 18pts or more per model?
> 
> _ allow Saurus to wear Light Armor (to counter their Initative 1, practically impossible to survive against magic users with Shadow magic)
> _All armies have weaknesses - its called game balance. Asking for something to counter that inbuilt weakness, rather than a broken rule, is just wishlisting I'm afraid._
> 
> and Kroxigors to get Furious Charge as they lost Great Reach thing.
> _Bring back Great Reach sure, thats a good idea, supporting attacks should cover it though. And they're never going to get Furious Charge since thats 40k - unless you meant Devastating charge - which they still wont get because they already get enough attacks._
> 
> I'm expecting a new type of saurus or skink or something thou.
> _Wouldn't hurt to add a little something extra to the list by way of new saurus, I cant see new Skinks though - there's already several kinds of units of skinks._
> 
> I was depressed that they've set in stone the Carnosaur. . . .
> . . .unless they scrap that or something.
> _I'd have a Carnosaur just as quick as I'd have any dragon or other monstrous mount - they're damn fine beasties. Cant see it getting scrapped._


You make some interesting points friend, but some of your post is just wishlisting. Sorry.

We're all guilty of wanting cool things for our armies, or things to improve weaknesses. But a lot of the time, these changes would serve no purpose other than to break an army or make it OP.

Besides, I'm a Vamps player and thats the only new book thats coming . . .

I wish!:laugh:


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## Troublehalf

Ah, you see, you mention Arcandon's never being done... but... they already have! They existed long ago and used to carry EotG before Stegadons, they had a stat line and everything.

On subject of Saurus... they are just so terrible against Ini tests..... the armor doesn't help against that, but there is no logical reason why a saurus wouldn't put armor on before going to fight... slowing him down isn't a reason cause he is at 1 Ini already lol.

Kroxigors I meant Devestating Charge, and I don't think it adds another attack, as far as I know it just gives +1 Strength on the charge, which, seeing as they Always Strike Last, isn't a massive bonus. They are 8-9ft tall blocks of solid muscle and I don't see many units or models in any army that have this ability.

Temple Guard used to be +2 Armor save prior to the latest codex. They had +4 Scaly Skin, Light Armor and Shield. Now it's +5 Scaly Skin, Light Armor and Shield. That's why people think they are so bad now, their price didn't drop to represent the loss of +1 AS. So, if it was restored it would be better.

Carnosaurs, by "getting scraped" what I meant was the lore regarding them as the "Top of predator of Lustria". Because if that is the case then GW cannot make anything better than them and keep it in both the lore and Lizardmen army.

For those of you who are interested, here is the picture of the Arcanodon 










here is the stat line (under EotG section)










So, as you can see, it used to exist.... so there is no reason why they can't bring it back and make it look better! Then make a Thunderlizard! Then a Coatl!


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## DecrepitDragon

Troublehalf said:


> Ah, you see, you mention Arcandon's never being done... but... they already have! They existed long ago and used to carry EotG before Stegadons, they had a stat line and everything.
> 
> _But the model didn't exist. If memory serves, the model shown was a conversion by one of the designers - look closely and you'll see a carnosaur head and tail. Everything in between is made of other bits and a toy dinosaur. But your quite correct - the creature had rules - the Lustria expansion if I remember correctly._
> 
> On subject of Saurus... they are just so terrible against Ini tests..... the armor doesn't help against that, but there is no logical reason why a saurus wouldn't put armor on before going to fight... slowing him down isn't a reason cause he is at 1 Ini already lol.
> _
> Two points mate. First - they're terrible at Initiative tests because they are slow. They're not elves! Second - if armour wont save against that, how is it a good balance against low initiative and the Lore of Shadows one spell? Also, again they are slow tough lizards with scaly skin - why would armour be of any interest to them? There is no harm in it I suppose, but all it would do is make them more expensive, and less fitting to the fluff. And technically then, they would be called Temple Guard. _
> 
> Kroxigors I meant Devestating Charge, and I don't think it adds another attack, as far as I know it just gives +1 Strength on the charge. . . .
> 
> _Its definitley +1A. Its primarily used in Frenzy these days. And dont Kroxigor get Great weapons anyway? Another +1Str is just plain greedy and, lets face it, unnecesary when you're already S7!( or 6? )_
> 
> Temple Guard used to be +2 Armor save prior to the latest codex. They had +4 Scaly Skin, Light Armor and Shield. Now it's +5 Scaly Skin, Light Armor and Shield. That's why people think they are so bad now, their price didn't drop to represent the loss of +1 AS. So, if it was restored it would be better.
> 
> _Ok, so they used to have a better save. Why did they lose it? Purely for the sake of balance I would imagine. Its possible that they might get it back, but GW will probably increase their points as a result this time around._
> 
> Carnosaurs, by "getting scraped" what I meant was the lore regarding them as the "Top of predator of Lustria". Because if that is the case then GW cannot make anything better than them and keep it in both the lore and Lizardmen army.
> 
> _I see what you mean now. Thats fair enough I suppose. But what could be better than a carnosaur anyway? Are you seriously telling me that its not monstrous enough for you? Options are good certainly, but if the carnosaur has a bigger, nastier cousin in the Lizards list, I dont even want to contemplate how many points it would cost. Something on about the same level, as a big monster ( equivalent to the vamp Terrorgeist ) would be OK for a new Rare choice. But *better *than a Carnosaur? - wishlisting mate._
> 
> So, as you can see, it used to exist.... so there is no reason why they can't bring it back and make it look better!
> 
> _See first comment. Its rules did - the model didn't._
> 
> Then make a Thunderlizard! Then a Coatl!
> 
> _Forgeworld might do a Thunderlizard, if they haven't already. I'm still with you on the Coatl - they would add some nice background to the list._


Obviously you love your Lizards - and I applaud your enthusiasm. I really do. But remember that wanting all sorts of enhancements for the sake of getting better units is only half the story. To achieve balance, you have to have negatives.

Skeletons ( certainly TK ones anyway ) are cheap troops at only 4 points. They have several different weapons and armour upgrades. They cause fear and aren't bothered by psychology. With all these good things, there has to be a bad, to explain their low points - and that bad thing is their stat line. Frankly its crap.:shok:

Every list works in the same way - its very rare that any unit or model is great at everything it does. Hell, its rare that any unit is better than _average_ at everything it does. And the units that are, are few in number and high in cost.

Once again though I respect your enthusiasm for the army - I'm just pointing out that balance is the key to good lists/army books.:grin:


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## Konrad_von_Carstein

Konrad thinks that Vampire Counts will be next. 
And take the dose of salt that you can but it seems to be the case all over the place that Vampires will be re done much to my enthusiasm.


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## DecrepitDragon

Konrad_von_Carstein said:


> Konrad thinks that Vampire Counts will be next.
> And take the dose of salt that you can but it seems to be the case all over the place that Vampires will be re done much to my enthusiasm.


Indeed.

I second the motion.:grin:


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## blackspine

Vampires are next.

As for after that? Well, it won't make a lick of sense.

I've completely given up hope for any and all help from GW on Beastmen. "New" models released for the beastmen rares....yet are not fixing the rules for undoubtedly the worst rare section in game. The WD where the new Models will be showcased are not even being shown with beastmen.
Cheaper in SoM, more 'options'/ upgrades....yet Beasts pay more and have less.

Some days..... 

My guesses? (hunch)

Vampire Counts
Dwarfs
Empire.

done. 
No Bretts. No Wood elves. 

...back to painting my executioners


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## Troublehalf

They are all good points and I am behind all of them. I guess it's my view since 8th Edition FAQ.

The thing is, for Carnosaurs, sure they are great, big and scary, but the thing that annoyed me the most is this: They get Ultimate Predator rule, which is awesome rule and has decent lore behind it... but if you read the background it's like "They hunt alone, but sometimes a alpha one will band together with others to take down prey which could rival them" - Which makes me think there is a more powerful creature in the mist and vines! Sure ThunderLizards are awesome and uberpowerful but I hope there is some rare uber stuff in there, cause, if you think about it... when they re-do the book they will be making a new 'big kit' just like the last codexs so I hope it'll be either a Arcanodon or a big dinosaur type thing. I've always wanted a Spinosaurus type creature or diplodocus type one, but perhaps I'd love some crazy stuff, perhaps a Dragon-Dinosaur hybrid thing! 

Kroxigors are S6 with their GW's. I just read through the lore and it's like "Skinks put heavy bronze armor on powerful Kroxigors" but they don't get the option to wear light armor. 

I love my Lizardmen, I have a huge army, partly painted, some made, lots unmade... became too ill to make them and while I could try now, I recently got a new kitten and she loves the models so much! 

I did do a huge list of what I had somewhere:

Total Model Number:

HQ:
x1 Lord Kroak
x1 Krok-Gar
x1 Chakax, Eternity Warden
x1 Tiktaq'to, Master of Skies
x1 Oxyotl
x1 Skink Chief
x1 Scar-Vet on Cold One (I think)
x1 Battle Standard Bearer
x2 Scar-Vets on Foot
x2 Skink Priests
x3 Slann Mage Priests

Core:
x160 Saurus Warriors (x30 Hand Weapon, x40 Spear, 90 unmade)
x121 (Or 120, can't remember) (x31 Blow Pipes, x18 Javalin, 72 unmade)
x2 Skink Bearers

Special:
x35 Saurus Cavalry (19 Made, 16 unmade)
x60 Temple Guard (40 Made, 20 unmade)
x18 Kroxigors (4 Made, 14 unmade)
x4 Stegadons (3 Made but no weapons yet, 1 partly made)
x4 Terradon Riders (All unmade)
x11 Chamelon Skinks (5 made, 6 unmade)

Rare:
x3 Razordon Packs
x3 Salamander Packs

So, I do love 'em, which is why I want to get back to finishing them, get healthy again and go and play with them! Plus I want a 40k army, but Sisters of Battle are still dead in the eyes of GW. Matt Ward *raises fist in anger!*


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## DecrepitDragon

Troublehalf said:


> They are all good points and I am behind all of them. I guess it's my view since 8th Edition FAQ.
> 
> So, I do love 'em, which is why I want to get back to finishing them, get healthy again and go and play with them! Plus I want a 40k army


And they are a nice army - I dont own any, but I've used them occasionally.

Shame about your health bud - hope the improvements continue. Give me a pm when you get some pics up if you like.:victory:

And as for 40k - get Tau. Just dont listen to the nay-sayers, because they're all talking sense!

That will change soon I hope.:so_happy:

So what do you think of the Vamps then? Any thoughts on whats coming next?


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## Vaz

What would I like?

Hobgoblin Khanate, Reman Legions and Cathayan Empire.

What would I expect?

Vampires, Daemons, Wood Elves.


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## Troublehalf

I love Vampires, I love their magic of "Hey, we start with 100 units, but I've made a Corpse Cart necromancer wizard, so by turn 4 there will be 100 more zombies on the table! MWhahahaahah!".

I want them to get a bone giant, like a huge skeleton giant. I think that'd would be cool. Do they have something like Plague Zombies? They could get some like that, when they attack/die there is a dice roll chance one of the opponents becomes a zombie. I think that would add power to the zombies as they could end up winning by rank bonuses and not by combat.... or holding up units or something.

I never said what books I want.... in order:

Nippon
Cathayan Empire
Araby Empire
Albion D)

I love asian warfare, always look grand and awesome. Still, doubt it'll ever happen. I'm just miffed that GamesWorkshop, a British company, made Albion so rubbish  Sure it has The Forge of the Old Ones which is controlled by the Lizardmen... and TruthSayers and so on exist there. Brettonia is based on France, The Empire on Germany, Lizardmen on Mayans/Aztecs, Dark Elves are Americans, High Elves based pn American Colonists, Beastmen based on medieval Spanish, Chaos are based on Scandinavians, Orcs on Germanic Tribes et al, Dwarfs I'm not sure, Wood Elves I assume are Americans who moved to Europe... sort of like American military bases in Germany and so on. Skaven based on the Black Death, Vampire Counts based on Eastern Europe and so on, Tomb Kings based on Egypt... Ogres I'm not sure.... Think that's it.


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## Sworn Radical

So, Vampire Counts is the next one to be updated ... hmmm.

Any ideas / rumours what might be in line next, after them ?

I'm pondering wether I should go (all Nurgle) Daemons or Bretonnian peasants for my next WHFB army ...


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## Troublehalf

There is no 100% conformation on VC being updated. It's just an educated guess based on the fact they got their model update a few months ago.

If we used this as a basis for what books will get updated, then after VC it should be Beastmen based on the new monsters for Storm of Magic... they are clearly Beastmen type models, so wouldn't be surprised if they are part of the next book.


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## cain the betrayer

From what i have seen on teh web teh first ones to come are VC and empire after that either Dwarfs or Warriors of chaos. WoC are coming out somewhere in Q4 of 2012 acording to hastings from wineseer.


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## blackspine

WoC would be hilarious, as it's clearly just for sales.

The only thing the army needs help with is 
Forsaken rules
Marauder modles


that's all I can think of. As of now, the book can be abused to hell and back. Not to skaven levels, but pretty well.
If I was a WOC serious player, I'd be pissed, as the new books have so few (2 pages!!) of magic items, as opposed to 4-6 pages.


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## Troublehalf

OK, I shall retract my original order:

I say the next update will be VC (Vampire Counts). Why the change you may ask? Well I was adding all the army books I didn't have to see how much it'd cost (a lot btw) and when I got to Vampire Counts, there was no longer a "Add to Cart" - This suggests that an update release is very, very close and to avoid any complaints from people buying a the current codex (somebody like me!) and finding out a month later (or whatever) that a brand new, hardback and full colour artwork, as well as some new artwork! Plus the new rules, new units and applying current stuff to 8th Ed.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440101a&prodId=prod1050108

There is the link, as you can see, you can no longer add it! At least, in the UK you can't.


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## DecrepitDragon

Well spotted mate.

Its not definative confirmation - but its a damn good hint at whats coming next. Good to know.


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## Troublehalf

They've updated the page further, if you look up the Vampire Counts codex it now says:

Availability: No Longer Available 

Further evidence that it's been removed and a new one will be around shortly. Which is cool, I might get it, I love reading certain army books... VC are interesting!


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## olderplayer

GW source says VC pretty certain to come out in January. Dual kits (black coach and corpse cart or something; two monsters along theme seen in first three 8th ed books) and totally different rules for black coach are expected. Points changes for cav naturally. Lower points for skellies similar to TK book. Reduction in magic items and vampiric power choices replaced by different bloodline vamps (like older book) with vampiric powers dependant/fixed based on bloodline likely. Possibly new monstrous infantry choice. 

Some strong indication of Warriors of Chaos out in Q4 2012 (before Wood Elves and Bretts and dwarfs??) with plastic dragon ogres and chosen and rework of lores. 

He was not aware of rumors of empire out sometime middle of next year (new war altar/war wagon dual model with different rules; smaller template for mortars; recosting of cav units rumors so far).


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## DecrepitDragon

olderplayer said:


> GW source says VC pretty certain to come out in January. Dual kits (black coach and corpse cart or something; two monsters along theme seen in first three 8th ed books) and totally different rules for black coach are expected. Points changes for cav naturally. Lower points for skellies similar to TK book. Reduction in magic items and vampiric power choices replaced by different bloodline vamps (like older book) with vampiric powers dependant/fixed based on bloodline likely. Possibly new monstrous infantry choice.


A random question for you and all the other rumour harvesters - Will the Bloodlines affect what is core/spec/rare? Its unlikely, I know, but it might make more characterful armies easier to make.


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## olderplayer

Reportedly, the bloodlines will replace the ability to select a large number of vampiric powers or limit the vampiric powers that can be selected for a given character and will alter what a vampire with a specific bloodline comes with automatically in terms of special abilities. 

It would be interesting to see if certain bloodlines made a special unit a core choice, like throgg making trolls core in the WoC book or the special death hag makes witch elves core in a dark elf army, but GW doesn't seem to be sympathetic to such choices.


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## Stephen_Newman

Ahem.

Sorry to disappoint but my local sources (located close to Warhammer HQ) were informed in a local managers meeting that VC are NOT the next Fantasy army to be done. It was brought up by another manager who asked about the loss of army books from the website.

I may be completely wrong at this point but I have great faith in the group I commune to.


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## Troublehalf

I don't see why they've removed it from the website. That's loss of sales, I doubt they've sold every single copy, so why are they not selling it? Surely they'd make more money by selling a codex that becomes out of date in X months.

You say they're not the next book, I don't mind, but who is then? Surely they would of mentioned who it was, cause, if you check, no other book has been removed from their website. It's only VC which you cannot order.... very strange if it's NOT the next book.

Sure it's not a red herring? Seeing as VC already got some new models this year, I'd expect them to be updated soon. :S


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## Sworn Radical

Troublehalf said:


> I don't see why they've removed it from the website.


Actually, the only website it's been _'removed'_ from is the UK page.

One might have thought, given that it's still available in all other language versions, that the English version might be out of print, but that's unlikely as well since it can still be ordered normally via US and AUS GW websites.

But yeah, I'd still bet my money on Empire or VC to be next in line.


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## Troublehalf

As far as my GW Manager friend says.... all he knows is there is a fantasy release in January. What that will be, he does not know until White Dwarf has been finished.

Rumours are flying around but he didn't give any impression on what the army will be. He only says that Bretonnia and Wood Elves need updating badly in terms of models (Bret are not bad in 8th actually).

I still think it'll be VC or Beastmen


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## Sworn Radical

Now Beastmen _would_ be nice if they'd bring back the glory of the various Marks of Chaos and some more _'gifts'_ as well. Pestigors, Khorngors etc.

But I highly doubt it.


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## blackspine

oh Khaine above and Khorne below....


If it was beastmen I'd rent goats and parade them through the streets with banners.
kids can be ungors.


it won't be though.

GW seems pretty happy with the mediocrity/ sub-par beastmen book. Our 'rares' were released for Storm of Magic.

VC, dwarfs, Empire are most likely on the horizon.

I thought the 'flesh golems' have been leaked too?


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## Stephen_Newman

Troublehalf said:


> As far as my GW Manager friend says.... all he knows is there is a fantasy release in January. What that will be, he does not know until White Dwarf has been finished.
> 
> Rumours are flying around but he didn't give any impression on what the army will be. He only says that Bretonnia and Wood Elves need updating badly in terms of models (Bret are not bad in 8th actually).
> 
> I still think it'll be VC or Beastmen


January White Dwarf was finished nearly 3 months ago now. The guys at GW HQ know but don't let anyone else know after the rumour lock-out.

As stated its unlikely in my eyes to be VC because as you put it they have some new lovely models but actually won the Storm of Magic Summer Campaign so unfortunately show no sign to be updated. Also going back to one of your earlier points new models does not necessarily mean new codex. The VC stuff was merely a second wave of models but rather later than the actual release of the original book. Although its does seem to indicate they are playtesting them but that sometimes occurs years before release.

Beastmen are rather recent so I really doubt they are getting a new book anytime soon.

I would prefer Wood Elves next. Mainly because I want to use a load of kits for exodite Eldar I am building next year and new stuff is nearly always welcome in my eyes.


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## NoHeresyOnlyTruth

I am pretty sure it is going to be vampires because for a few reasons.

There is a model called a Terrorgheist already made
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440102a&prodId=prod1290005a

Not to mention this part here 


TERRORGHEIST
Like a bat out of hell (sorry), the Terrorgheist screams into the Vampire Counts menagerie. And in more ways than one - not only does this monster have plenty of might in the close combat phase, it also has a special Death Shriek attack so terrifying it can cause enemy models to die of fright. This works much like the Tomb Banshee's Ghostly Howl ability, but you add the number of Wounds the Terrorgheist has left to the 2D6 roll. I've seen Terrorgheists take out whole units of Knights with a single deafening shriek. *The Strigoi Ghoul King on top's an absolute killing machine too; all the punch of a Vampire Lord with the hatred and poison of the Strigoi to back it up*. Not enough for you? The Terrorgheist's thunderstomp should be the icing on the cake. Then there's the Death Shriek next turn... this thing just has so many ways to kill you it's terrifying!

Looks like the vamp classes are back


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## Sworn Radical

Yeah, the _'Terrorgheist_' isn't new nor is it incredible. Actually it's been around for several months by now.
This months they published *three *(!) monstrous creatures which are usable in Storm of Magic scenarios but are also rare choices for a Beastmen army. Now, does this mean Beastmen are next ? 
I'd think you'd see where I'm coming from by now, no ?

Vampires *will *most likely be one of the next books, but the release of a single monster (and a new Banshee and new Necromancer actually) doesn't make for a release party.


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## experiment 626

Stephen_Newman said:


> January White Dwarf was finished nearly 3 months ago now. The guys at GW HQ know but don't let anyone else know after the rumour lock-out.
> 
> As stated its unlikely in my eyes to be VC because as you put it they have some new lovely models but actually won the Storm of Magic Summer Campaign so unfortunately show no sign to be updated. Also going back to one of your earlier points new models does not necessarily mean new codex. The VC stuff was merely a second wave of models but rather later than the actual release of the original book. Although its does seem to indicate they are playtesting them but that sometimes occurs years before release.
> 
> Beastmen are rather recent so I really doubt they are getting a new book anytime soon.
> 
> I would prefer Wood Elves next. Mainly because I want to use a load of kits for exodite Eldar I am building next year and new stuff is nearly always welcome in my eyes.


VC are the most fucked up book right now;
- magic that doesn't 'gel' with 8th edition
- _over half_ of the 'crap' section doesn't count towards the required 25% minimum (oh wait, we actually only have 1 unit because the other 2 options are over-costed as hell!:hang1
- 2 viable units outside of rares (ghouls & grave guard anyone?!)
- over-costed & highly confused characters that pay through the nose for 'basic' gear
- inherent 8th ed nerfs which have all but killed the undead in general.

So now VC's are left with our '1 list to rule them all' and if we deviate from it, it's pretty much an auto-lose in any kind of competitive setting.

No damn way do I want to keep paying 8 fething points for a skeleton!!! And zombies are the game's worst unit.
VC's are crying for a book that works outside of 1 very stale & boring build.

Our model range is also the oldest with things like black knights, fell bats, spirit hosts, wraiths, bat swarms, winged nightmare, most characters...


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## Stephen_Newman

experiment 626 said:


> VC are the most fucked up book right now;
> - magic that doesn't 'gel' with 8th edition
> - _over half_ of the 'crap' section doesn't count towards the required 25% minimum (oh wait, we actually only have 1 unit because the other 2 options are over-costed as hell!:hang1
> - 2 viable units outside of rares (ghouls & grave guard anyone?!)
> - over-costed & highly confused characters that pay through the nose for 'basic' gear
> - inherent 8th ed nerfs which have all but killed the undead in general.
> 
> So now VC's are left with our '1 list to rule them all' and if we deviate from it, it's pretty much an auto-lose in any kind of competitive setting.
> 
> No damn way do I want to keep paying 8 fething points for a skeleton!!! And zombies are the game's worst unit.
> VC's are crying for a book that works outside of 1 very stale & boring build.
> 
> Our model range is also the oldest with things like black knights, fell bats, spirit hosts, wraiths, bat swarms, winged nightmare, most characters...


I understand many of your points. My own opinions are that Zombies are always going to be among the worst units in the game but I do agree that your skellies are overcosted. Can't really comment on the rest since I do not play VC.

However I do believe you are wrong in that VC are the worst army around. I believe the Brettonians have it a LOT worse than you. Here are a few points I can think of.

1. Lack of any specific lore of any kind when they really should have one.

2. Nearly half of magic items do not work and the arrangement for virtues is a mess at the moment.

3. Lots of models overcosted and overreliance on cavalry which has been toned down in destructiveness thanks to hordes/steadfast mean they really struggle to break down enemies. Average initiative does not really help here either.

4. All Special Characters crap at the moment. Need more punch.

5. models are ok for the most part so thats the only thing they are good for at the moment.


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## olderplayer

Skellies are over costed, as evidenced by the change in points cost for skellies in the new TK book. Definitely VC needs points adjustments, but the army is still quite competitive, just different from how it was run in 7th edition. Also, the black coach kind of doesn't work with 8th edition winds of magic. Hopefully, a new book is out in January (to make VC magic consistent with 8th edition).


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## Troublehalf

Shame everything is about "winning" and "maxing cost vs points" in Warhammer. I have plenty of Lizardmen units which are "rubbish" for their points, but I like them because they are are cool.

I'd love a VC or Wood Elf army, I love the idea of huge blocks for VC and loads of archers for WE. If I had to choose, it'd be WE... but I won't be looking into it till it's updated. I'd like an "evil" army, but I have so much to work on anyways  Still dream of having a 40-50 model bowmen unit of WE... so much shooting 

It could be worse, you could be Lizardmen, with the Slann, the original magic users and the teachers of the Elves (yet for some reason, Elves are always refered to as the best magic users and casters..... Slann are nowhere to be seen) but the Slann (Lizardmen) don't get a magic lore at all. Every single race, apart from Brets and Empire (They have Blessings of Sigmar... so, that's a kind of lore) and Dwarves (they have Runes, so their own kind of lore). You'd think for a magically suited and attuned race as the Slannw ould have one, but alas.

Don't VC players ever use any other models apart from "the best priced ones"? Doesn't that make for a boring game?


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## Aramoro

Troublehalf said:


> Don't VC players ever use any other models apart from "the best priced ones"? Doesn't that make for a boring game?


The problem with VC units is that they tend to cost the same, a Skeleton costs the same a Ghoul so you have to purposefully make your army bad to take Skeletons. Zombies cost half as much as a Ghoul or Skeleton but they are catastrophically bad, like WS1, S2, T2 kinda bad. I think all they need to do though is give Zombies 5+ regen and they're good again. 

But then again VC's are still a pretty good army, no one can complain about that at all. 

One big reason why Brets need an update before VC is Brets have virtues, a lot like Vampiric Powers, except they come out of your Magic Item allowance and not a separate Virtue one which cripples your ability to make useful dudes. Oh on top of the fact they are awash with items and virtues that don't work or vastly overcosted.


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## DecrepitDragon

I'm seeing a lot of support for the old Brets, and I have to agree that they are in far greater need of a new book than any other army. However, I dont see it happening next - Brets were never the most popular army. Certainly not the least popular, but not common either.

Vamps on the other hand, seem to be far more common. I suppose it will simply come down to what makes the most sense from a business perspective - and as we all know, there's no guessing how GW measure business sense.

From a personal point of view, I really hope it is Vamps. To see TK get a new book is all fine and understandable, they needed it too after all. But to have all of those new models, points restructuring ( I'm looking at the skellies mostly there ) and general good quaility of the new book, whilst holding a Vamps army book, is a little depressing. More so for Vamps players I feel, as it just highlights all of the ways the Vamps need re-done. There really isn't another two armies as closely related in general structure as these two ( aside from elves maybe ), which only serves to underscore the differences beween old books and new throughout the game as a whole. 

I dont believe that GW can, in good conscience, leave a large number of players with that kind of comparison staring them in the face. If Vamps are not next, then they had best be soon after, or GW might find a lot of unhappy gamers not being as keen to purchase new models.

But then again, since when did that bother GW?


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## experiment 626

Well, VC's are now confirmed as the news & rumors sections has pics from the 'Vampuary' WD!

My Lahmians can finally come out and play again without being laughed at.


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## Troublehalf

Just going to bump this:

What is everybodies next guess on the books?

I think the following:

1. Beastmen - Already got new models out, so should be more coming out.
2. Empire - Very old book, not as old as WE or Bret, but it's a popular army.
3. High Elves - Another old book, popular, so should expect it updated.
4. Wood Elves - Needs a massive update, but isn't a major army.
5. Bretonnia - Another extremely old book, 2nd only to WE, but is still pretty good in 8th.

So, what do you expect to be updated? Well, I'm not sure on Beastmen, Empire or HE.

But for Bretonnia, I expect some sort of catapult, perhaps some protective wooden shields. Surprised there are no heavy armored footmen for them. So, expect that to change. Dismounted Feudal Knights, perhaps. They need a huge 'centrepiece' model, since every 8th Ed updated has got one. That could be hard, but I'm sure it'll be fixed.

Wood Elves need a huge update, but plenty of stuff they could do. My favourite idea was GW following their constellation idea (Orion, King of Woods and his two hounds) was this. They could do a centre piece model based on "The Big Bear" or "Ursa Major" which is another constellations and prob one of the most famous, not only goes it keep with the constellations idea, but Bears are also inhabit woods. Perfect. They could also do Bear Cav (but the Empire do that... so dunno). Another idea is a giant insect, a bit like the Orc Spider thing. Another idea is Great Stag Cavalry. Another one, and a very interesting one is what I call "Woodland Swarms" - These will be woodland animals, wolves, insects other mythical ones, so on so forth. Swarms are crap, I hear you say. Well, not in huge numbers and when your army has a huge supply of powerful ranged troops. Perfect for holding up some units to get some shots in, or hold them up in 12" range to get S4 shots off. My other idea was "Spirit of the Wood" which is often mentioned in WE stories as causing trees to attack intruders, but perhaps it could be a manifestation of the Spirit of the Wood and be a powerful centre piece model, maybe Lv.4 Wizard with Lore of Life and decent melee stats. Then, on it's death, it causes all WE to hit harder for a turn or something 

Anybody got other ideas?


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## Abomination

I think Empire, Dwarves and Bretonnia will be the next three. My reasoning is based on nothing more than my own meandering thoughts.


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## Tim/Steve

I think that Empire are pretty certain to be the next, but after that who knows. Personally I think HE, WE and bretts are pretty likely. I really don't think empire need a new book, but they're a big seller and I guess we can't blame GW for being a business.


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## Troublehalf

I find the Empire book funny. Under every Hero/Lord lore, they have something like "He is so awesome he can pew pew". I think the HE has it also. That was an old thing they did. So, I assume both of those will be done, as I said. Beastmen was based purely on the new beastmen models, and, just like VC, there might be some update for them in the next year or so.


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## olderplayer

The empire book is reportedly in May or June (someone from GW reportedly slipped in a comment made on this). Warriors of chaos rumored for late 2012. Dark Elves some time in 2013 and Dwarves get a new book reportedly some time in 2013 (early, rather than late). Those are the most definitive rumours reportedly. I would not be surprised to see GW sneak in a fourth book this year with VC already out and Empire and Warriors of Chaos reportedly coming out this year. 

Empire really needs a new book because its book is one of the oldest, some of the mechanics don't fit 8th edition, and the points costs are really out-of-date. It has too many magic items for 8th edition, with the large selection of common magic items in the general rule book. 

Expect war machines to be revised with great cannnons more expensive (perhaps a choice of great and normal cannons) and with mortars being either increased in points cost or GW deciding to downsize the template for mortar hits from 5" to 3" round (as Jervis johnson recently reportedly commented on). The war alter needs refreshing. The extra dispel dice of warrior priests and arch lectors are a bit extreme in the context of the winds of magic, especially with the ability to also take a lvl 4 caster with lore of life. 

Empire cav units need serious points revisions downward or better buffs for knightly orders (rumored). 

Empire greatswords is slightly too expensive for what they do. 

While they probably won't fix it, the steam tank is overdown with T10 and 1+ armour and LD10 and unbreakable. It is just not a fun game to play with and against, especially in a two steam tank army. You either have something to deal with it (cannons at S10, a spell like pit of shades or lore of death or metal spells that by-pass toughness and armour; or some way to get wounds and nerf armour) or you don't and it can tie up important units and create a static combat that goes on for many turns (often to the end of the game) with the steam tank continuing the deplete the unit it is in combat with over time while taking few, if any wounds. 

The rumor is something about three of four themed army types in the new Empire book.


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## Stephen_Newman

Bullshit are Empire an old edition where half the stuff does not work.

Every Wood Elf and Brettonian player will agree with me. Half the Brettonian magic items now no longer work, virtues come out of magic allowance and the effect of cavalry has been nerfed with 8th ed which happens to be what they are meant to be good at.

As for Wood Elves. They hold what I call the worst lore around (Lore of the Wild comes next), have overcosted everything, and struggle to deal with massive infantry blocks that are prevalent with the current edition.

Yet according to your schedule they will not get a release until a likely 2014 date. Thats over 10 years for Brets since their last book and nearly the same time period for Wood Elves. It takes the piss when someone moans about their army in this way when there are clearly others that need greater care first.


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## experiment 626

The Round Table of Bretonnia forums would highly disagree with you about brets being so crap. Sure they've had 2-3 magic items & 1 virtue become obsolete, but then alot of other armies have hade similar stuff happen as well with a few of their items.

Cavalry tactics have only changed in 8th - not become utterly useless. (but by all means, please keep believing cav suck in 8th, it only makes those units better for those who've adapted their tactics!)
You simply can't plow 6-9 knights into a massive unit and be almost assured of an auto-win anymore by killing the front rank and breaking units like in previous editions.

Yes, brets have become stale - anything that doesn't get attention for 8+ years will do the same! But brets are no worse off than the likes of Beastmen, Empire, Dwarfs, High Elves or other middle of the road books.
Wood Elves are a different animal altogether. They have their competitive builds, and good players have adapted to the way 8th works. Playing WE's simply means following a set cookie-cutter type of build similar to how VC's worked prior to our recent new book. It's not the most fun, but it can be done.

Empire on the otherhand are broken right now;
- They can outright auto-remove an entire phase of the game from your opponent's turn!
- Their war machines are redonkulously cheap and utterly devastating. (mortars for example in their current form should be about 150pts or more a piece!)
- Steamtanks are gimmicky and too much of an easy counter to most units.
- Certain magic items are pretty damn broken in 8th. (rod of power - I'm looking at you!)

That's before you even get into the issues of things like units needing some re-juggling of costs/possible upgrades and the like!
Try being a VC player who has to contend with 3x mortars + arch lector + 3x warrior priests + wizard lord w/life. Yep, that's a fun game when my magic is impossible to cast and I'm getting whacked by three 5"/S3 armour piercing templates each turn - I was totally going to have a chance to counter that!

When a single book can utterly invalidate at least one entire army, that offending book needs addressing, even if it isn't the oldest! Dwarfs are the same simply because they can remove the magic phase from the game... WoC is highly imbalanced because of unit-wide 3+ ward saves and their core being far too cheap in a system that revolves around infantry...
There's also the fact that GW doesn't know what they want to do with brets or WE's as well to consider. How the hell do you go about re-writing WE's for example to fit into 8th when they're supposed to be a lightly armed skirmish force of guerilla fighters?! if none of the games designers have any good ideas for those armies, then it's best to just leave them for now - no point putting all those resources and cash into a project that's doomed to be an epic fail just to crank out a book, is there?! Do you really want a Bret army that goes from its knightly theme to 'Flower-wearing Empire without guns?'

Sure it sucks to be one of the neglected armies, but eventually brets & WE's will get their turn. Look at Dark Eldar, Necrons & TK's - they had that unenviable 10+ year wait, but it was worth it in the end!


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