# Bowing Out of the Horus Heresy Series



## Count_the_Seven

As it says, that's me done.

In a previous thread, someone posted a list of the HH material produced to date. In every year - up to 2012 - I had read or listened to every piece of work.

Then, in 2013, I missed Imperial Truth and a few ebooks - particularly the advent stories. In 2014, the list of released material (some of which I didn't even know existed until I read the list, and I've been _trying _to keep up!) included ore material I hadn't consumed than had. Already in 2015 the list of releases is greater than in the first year of the series, and there's two Ltd Ed books already...

That, coupled with changing the published format - essentially destroying my collection by moving to large paperbacks, introducing hardback copies and delaying mass market paperback releases (the versions I've been collecting) has forced me to conclude that I can do without this madness.

I finished Vengeful Spirit last week - I thought the quality of writing and the story itself were poor (and the wider issue of disjointed storytelling as discussed elsewhere on here). We are book 29 and are only really beginning to see moves toward Terra. That's enough for me.

In my opinion, the story should have been completed long ago, with side stories filled in after the main event. That is a viable model for franchises like the HH series: this is now nothing ore than a cash cow. 

I've held on hoping to see some progress in a meaningful sense, but the story appears to have become mired and confused, and the formats are now so numerous it is almost impossible to keep track.

Knowing that Tallarn II was coming, I spent £53 on new brushes and accessories from Games and Gears for my painting. I simply can't justify the ongoing costs and confusion over what goes where and when in the story arc and trying to keep track of releases.

Sadly, I'm out.

CtS


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## ntaw

This entire hobby is a cash cow, otherwise it wouldn't exist. I skip the books that don't catch me and read synopses to get key events.


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## Kalamoj

It crossed my mind too after the Legacies of Betrayal.
I still love the series so I restricted myself to numbered novels.


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## Count_the_Seven

Agreed @ntaw, however there are cash cows and there are comedic clown-like cash cows!

:grin:

CtS


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## bitsandkits

i Bowed out a few years ago for the very same reason, i would be the first to admit its a grand story that needed multiple books to do it justice, but i think after about 15 books it became very clear that GW really had no intention of doing anything other than milking it for as long as possible with as many titles as possible from as many perspectives as possible, the alarms bells started ringing for me with the Dark Angel book Decent of angels, i was quite put out that they had marketed the Dark Angels origin story as a HH novel, i really didnt enjoy the book, i felt it was very poorly written, it didnt engage me like the others had to that point, i stuck with the series until prospero burns then gave in, just looked on wiki and its doesnt look like the next 14 titles have moved the story on much either.


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## Matcap

Same here, to be honest I can't be arsed anymore. 

I might take a look at some stuff by writers I enjoy, but it's becoming a hassle to find the good books between all the stuff they put out. Which is a shame because I love the setting and was quite invested, but at this point I'm just getting annoyed by it. 

On top of that the DLC mode of trying to sell stuff is really shitty.


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## Tawa

Pretty much the same for me. I've even binned myself from all three of the GW/FW/BL mailing lists.

I've got these left to read and then I'm also done to be honest.

Mark of Calth.
Vulkan Lives.
The Unremembered Empire.
Scars.



Shame really.


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## Khorne's Fist

I'll probably continue with the series, but I haven't been arsed buying any of the LE stuff or shorts for quite a while now. I'll buy the full novels as they come out digitally, but all the other stuff can be found elsewhere, and consumed at my leisure. 

I really think there's something going on other than them trying to milk it though. The rate of full novel new releases across the whole range has dropped off dramatically in the last year or so, and considering there is a wealth of lore to explore from after the Heresy, it's not like they need to stretch it out and exploit the fan base.


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## Angel of Blood

Yeah, I'm still buying the full novels, but I've missed quite a few of the LE's, also missed a lot of the anthologies. I don't like the LE's at the best of times, but it's the anthologies being released, containing LE's that I already own, along with short stories that I already own, to only get maybe one or two at most new stories. 

But yeah, even me levels of OCD with the collection has hit it's limit. Full novels, will get. LE's, they're really going to have to catch my eye to get.


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## Vaz

There are alternative sources. If GW/BL want to be cunts about cashcowing substandard bollocks, then I won't pay it.


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## Deus Mortis

Aye, for me it's only the novels I actually give a shit about, and even then it's only after reviews have come out that I'll part with money. Saved me from buying Vengeful Spirit when everyone was really excited and then fucking furious. 

The only author exempt from my contempt is ADB, because that man could write about the everyday life of a pig in a mulchy field and it would still tower over the likes of Angel Exterminatus.


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## Brother Subtle

This LE novel thing has killed the LE train for me now. I've got all the LE novellas up until now and I've never, ever felt like they were good value for money. Happy to just keep getting hardbacks as they release, wait 2 years for the novellas to re-release at 1/3rd the price and get all my HH audio from BookDepository for a fraction the price of the BL website.

I'll stick with HH. But only because I've come so far and invested so much (easily over $3K).


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## Doelago

Also feeling quite burned out with BL‘s shit at the moment, but the investment I have put into the series (I counted the euros, and only cried for an hour) keeps me buying it. I keep buying them simply to have the bookshelf in a complete state, but I have admittedly not read several of the most recent books and cannot find any interest to do so. I am finding more enjoyment from reading the random 40k bolter porn at the moment rather than trying to sludge through all the shitty short stories that BL releases for the Heresy series.

I even ordered the re-releases for _First & Only_ and _Nightbringer_ to get some nostalgia and hopefully be able to enjoy a proper book again, since BL appears to be hell bent on only releasing short stories and novellas at the moment.


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## Brother Subtle

Doelago said:


> to get some nostalgia and hopefully be able to enjoy a proper book again


Ive re-read both Eisenhorn and Ravenor Omnibus' twice since I started the Heresy. Just to switch back to quality 40k writing for a bit.


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## Angel of Blood

Doelago said:


> I even ordered the re-releases for _First & Only_ and _Nightbringer_ to get some nostalgia and hopefully be able to enjoy a proper book again, since BL appears to be hell bent on only releasing short stories and novellas at the moment.


I got First and Only again as well. And I loved it. Now naturally reading the whole series again for the umpteenth time. 

Still got about 3 Horus Heresy LE novels, Damnation of Pythos and one of the Anthologies, fuck knows which one, it's not even out the delivery box, that's literally how uninterested I am in reading it, so many anthologies lately, all just re-released shorts. But like you said, I've invested so much, I feel I have to see it through.


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## Garviel loken.

I don't understand your mindset at all. We already know the conclusion to this story, so why rush it? Sure we could do without the limited editions, but the novels are going at a good pace


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## Brother Subtle

Garviel loken. said:


> but the novels are going at a good pace


You haven't noticed the huge swing to Novellas and ebook 'quick reads' over the last 2 years?


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## Roninman

Garviel loken. said:


> I don't understand your mindset at all. We already know the conclusion to this story, so why rush it? Sure we could do without the limited editions, but the novels are going at a good pace


Because many novels and whatever they publish is just overpriced and generally full of shit these days. I got everything up to Betrayer and all these small publications and LE bullshit this goes way out of hand.

First years of HH was quite solid but after that its just been short story after Límited followed again another shortstory. And these MAIN books that should have pushed whole thing forwards while ago seems that they still are not going nowhere at all. Quality overal of whole HH stories has come from early years 8/10 to these days 5/10. 

Im not supporting Horus heresy anymore and few of my friends are thinking the same.


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## Angel of Blood

It's the fact that these overprices Limited Editions are being pushed out faster than the novels. Back when it was every once in a while, with a few novels in between, it was fine. But now, it just seems as if every month or two another LE is announced.


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## darkreever

Story wise, I think a big problem comes from the Age of Darkness itself. A seven year gap in which Horus waylayed his forces from making to Terra and instead let them sack worlds, go about their own agendas, and solidify their authority.

So far we've seen things like the Thramas Crusade, Mortarion's attempt to turn the Khan, the events of Angel Exterminatus, Tallarn, and Damnation of Pythos. They are kind of just padding, but they also do explain certain things; doesn't stop things from dragging on though.


Also, has anyone read the story _The Gates of Terra_ from back in 2012? I think that story, now going on three years old, had the traitor fleet in the outer Sol system. (Its also a Kyme story so take that as you will.)


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## Garviel loken.

Brother Subtle said:


> You haven't noticed the huge swing to Novellas and ebook 'quick reads' over the last 2 years?


What i meant by good pace, is the story each novel tells. My one big annoyance with the HH is how the only publish 2 novels a year now.


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## Vaz

Garviel loken. said:


> What i meant by good pace, is the story each novel tells. My one big annoyance with the HH is how the only publish 2 novels a year now.


You're shitting me, right? The storyline is stagnant; Vengeful Spirit was meant to be a big point; but was a load of shit, Tallarn is being dragged out over a 3 year long release... and the rest of the stories are shorts, novels and audio's regarding shattered legions.


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## Garviel loken.

Vaz said:


> You're shitting me, right? The storyline is stagnant; Vengeful Spirit was meant to be a big point; but was a load of shit, Tallarn is being dragged out over a 3 year long release... and the rest of the stories are shorts, novels and audio's regarding shattered legions.


The only stagant story is damnation of pythos. I cant think of another Novel that hasnt pushed the story line ahead. Vengeful spirit wasnt terrible, im just not a fan of mcniell


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## Khorne's Fist

Garviel loken. said:


> Vengeful spirit wasn't terrible,


Oh but it was. So, so terrible.


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## darkreever

Khorne's Fist said:


> Oh but it was. So, so terrible.


In yours and many others opinions yes, clearly not in everyone's though.


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## Angel of Blood

The story is feeling stagnant now. I know the Age of Darkness has a lot of time to cover, but it feels as if all the momentum has gone out of the series since Calth. Back when the series started, the main events I was expecting, were:

Davin. Istvaan III and V. Prospero. Calth. Signus. Mars. Terra. Possibly Tallarn as well, but I never really considered that to be a main event like the others. Those were, and are the main events. Then we got some nice add on novels as well, such as The First Heretic, Legion, Scars. Which were great, helped pad out the precursor to the Heresy and fleshed out two of the more mysterious Legions. We also got the Guillimans, Imperium Secundus, which wasn't executed brilliantly (too much Curze), but still works into the story.

But now, it's just so many other stories that just don't have enough substance or background to the event. All those main ones are covered, everything else apart from Terra, now has to be almost completely new material and filler. Other than Mortarion and the Death Guards fall, there aren't any events from the days of Index Astartes articles or Visions to look forward to.


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## Brother Lucian

As others have speculated, the dearth of proper novels is blamed on the delay of the Master of Mankind, which would have covered or at least started the arc about the Silent War in the Webway as the next nexus novel.


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## darkreever

Angel of Blood said:


> Other than Mortarion and the Death Guards fall, there aren't any events from the days of Index Astartes articles or Visions to look forward to.


I'm not sure if any of the limited editions or novellas have covered it but we still need to find out what causes Magnus and the Thousand Sons to side with Horus. We know they are present with the traitors on Terra, and Magnus did try to stop the Heresy from occurring so how did he go from A to B?


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## Garviel loken.

Khorne's Fist said:


> Oh but it was. So, so terrible.


It was by no means great. IT was so so. Know no fear is the pinnicle of the HH series so far. Im hoping other titles will match it


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## Garviel loken.

darkreever said:


> I'm not sure if any of the limited editions or novellas have covered it but we still need to find out what causes Magnus and the Thousand Sons to side with Horus. We know they are present with the traitors on Terra, and Magnus did try to stop the Heresy from occurring so how did he go from A to B?


Graham mcniells crimson king will cover that


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## darkreever

Garviel loken. said:


> Graham mcniells crimson king will cover that


Wasn't that announced two years ago?


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## Garviel loken.

darkreever said:


> Wasn't that announced two years ago?


Yup. But hes almost finished it i think


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## Count_the_Seven

Too Late. There's no excuse for the series taking so long. Making money is a reason, not an excuse.

I'm still out. And I'm sadly disappointed so many are with me. GW/BL have fucked this up really, really badly (IMO).

CtS


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## Uveron

Count_the_Seven said:


> I'm still out. And I'm sadly disappointed so may are with me. GW/BL have fucked this up really, really badly (IMO).
> 
> CtS


I would hope perhaps that some fans could come together to create a clear message to GW/BL to make them see reason. 

But sadly, I understand this will never happen.


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## Count_the_Seven

I've tided my typos, @Uveron but the point still stands!


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## Khorne's Fist

Count_the_Seven said:


> I'm still out.


I didn't realise we were trying to persuade you to come back in. Were we supposed to?


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## ntaw

Games Workshop/Black Library has a lot more in common with the Toronto Maple Leafs than I ever thought.


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## Brother Subtle

darkreever said:


> We know they are present with the traitors on Terra, and Magnus did try to stop the Heresy from occurring so how did he go from A to B?


I'm thinking Horus paid Magnus' medical bills for his broken back he received from Russ. I heard he initially tried to claim back his expenses through his Imperial Medical Heath Fund but his application was declined.


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## Vaz

Garviel loken. said:


> It was by no means great. IT was so so. *Betrayer* is the pinnicle of the HH series so far. Im hoping other titles will match it


Fixed.


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## Count_the_Seven

@Khornes_Fist No. And I'm stil out.

:good:

CtS


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## Words_of_Truth

darkreever said:


> I'm not sure if any of the limited editions or novellas have covered it but we still need to find out what causes Magnus and the Thousand Sons to side with Horus. We know they are present with the traitors on Terra, and Magnus did try to stop the Heresy from occurring so how did he go from A to B?


Scars covers it slightly.


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## March of Time

Count_the_Seven said:


> @Khornes_Fist No. And I'm stil out.
> 
> :good:
> 
> CtS


:good:


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## darkreever

Words_of_Truth said:


> Scars covers it slightly.


Having just finished Scars this week, I didn't get a clear cut decision from the Crimson King, let alone him hinting at one.

Saying that, I also did not enjoy the novel all that much.


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## Words_of_Truth

darkreever said:


> Having just finished Scars this week, I didn't get a clear cut decision from the Crimson King, let alone him hinting at one.
> 
> Saying that, I also did not enjoy the novel all that much.


I read it during the time it was sold weekly.

It did't give a clear cut answer but imo I think it contributed to answering the choice Magnus eventually makes. The impression I got..



was that the "Ghost of Magnus" that was left on Prospero was the last essence of his good self and what inhabited his form elsewhere would be full of bitterness and anger.


That was the impression I got but I could of read it wrongly.


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## Count_the_Seven

Great discussion, everyone.

I hope GW/BL see this and other threads elsewhere and recognise the problems created with their customers by their business model and quality of product.

Arabest

CtS


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## Angel of Blood

darkreever said:


> Having just finished Scars this week, I didn't get a clear cut decision from the Crimson King, let alone him hinting at one.
> 
> Saying that, I also did not enjoy the novel all that much.


Really? I really enjoyed _Scars_. Really gave the V Legion and the Khan their own flavour and feel, and despite knowing that it would end in a stalemate of some kind, I really enjoyed the duel between Jaghati and Mortarion.


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## Serpion5

I didn't realize anyone was still reading the Heresy series at all. I'm with CtS on this one, only I reached the conclusion looong before he did. Last Heresy novel I bought was Know no Fear, and I couldn't even work up the will to open page fucking one. 

That was the end of the Heresy for me. :boredom:


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## Count_the_Seven

@Serpion5 haha, my madness filter kept me on track until last week!

CtS


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

It's interesting reading everyone else's comments.

I followed the HH series since Book 1 was released in 2006. But I stopped following it fully (as in buying every publication) when _Vulkan Lives_ was released a couple of years ago. That terrible book (very) roughly coincided with the crazy format ideas that BL came up with - First Editions, Limited Editions, pointless novellas, staggered release dates and whatever else which turned me off massively. 

Since then I have bought a few novels and shorts, but only ones that particularly pique my interest - such as _Scars_, which I enjoyed. Other than that I'm just not interested any more.


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## Paceyjg

I've just started reading Vengeful Spirit (I also wait for the Mass market paperbacks so I can continue my collection) and this is the first time thinking to myself 'hang on, where/when/who did that happen?

My conclusion is that the wait is either so long for the paperbacks that I've forgotten previous books or, more likely, new stuff has appeared in the LE's. 

I have no intention of buying all the add-on HH material BL produce and if they do become required reading for the novels, I may quit the series as well!


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## ntaw

Everyone here needs to take a break (so BL can sort out their shit, apparently) and read the Dune series if you're in to sci-fi or the Wheel of Time series if you're into fantasy.


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## Sevatar

I don't have anything against short stories or novellas per se. As long as they get included in some kind of anthology within a reasonable timeframe. The (probably related) issue is that the release of new novel-length books takes forever now. The books itself were always hit-and-miss for me.


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## Tawa

Paceyjg said:


> I've just started reading Vengeful Spirit (I also wait for the Mass market paperbacks so I can continue my collection) and this is the first time thinking to myself 'hang on, where/when/who did that happen?


Waiting for those MM Paperbacks is another thing killing it for me, so, um, yeah..... 



ntaw said:


> Everyone here needs to take a break (so BL can sort out their shit, apparently) and read the Dune series if you're in to sci-fi or the Wheel of Time series if you're into fantasy.


Be warned! Dune can be very heavy going in places, but are awesome novels! :good:


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## Scrad

Dune and *Frank* Herbert forever.


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## ckcrawford

1000 copies left. I hope BL sees how much they limited their fan base. Its a disgrace. I remember when ADB's Limited Novela was sold out and their website froze. 

This was a book I would have bought because I'm such a fan, but after seeing what happened to the first novel and then looking at Ebay at how people were desperately trying to get rid of the extra copies they bought in mass, it was pretty obvious the first really didn't leave an impression.


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## cottrelli

I stopped getting _everything_ published by Black Library after Vulkan Lives and stopped reading BL pubs altogether a little while afterward. The only thing I've read to break that drought was The Talon of Horus, and that's because ADB wrote it. At this point the only worthwhile authors whose works I'll buy are Aaron Dembski-Bowden (for obvious reasons), Chris Wraight (also for obvious reasons) and Dan Abnett (who hasn't released a 40K or HH piece in what feels like forever). To me every other author reads like polished fan fiction.

Just a few minutes ago I checked out BL's web page to see if anything new had come out or been announced after not checking up in months. What I found was that everything released since Vengeful Spirit (almost a year ago!) was pretty much rubbish.

So I'm officially done with BL aside from stuff by Abnett (still waiting for book two in the Bequin Trilogy, unless I missed an announcement or something), ADB (definitely looking forward to Master of Mankind) and Wraight (I'm sad to say I have no idea what his next book is but I'll probably give it a read).

Until then I'll be rereading the Dune series and eagerly anticipating the next installment in James S. A. Corey's amazing Expanse series. Seriously, if you're looking for excellently written space opera grounded in hard science fiction, you can't do much better.

Tl;dr: Check out The Expanse series by James S. A. Corey if you're burnt out on HH.


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## Khorne's Fist

cottrelli said:


> At this point the only worthwhile authors whose works I'll buy are Aaron Dembski-Bowden (for obvious reasons), Chris Wraight (also for obvious reasons) and Dan Abnett (who hasn't released a 40K or HH piece in what feels like forever). To me every other author reads like polished fan fiction.


French is beginning to creep up on these guys. Might be worth checking out his Ahriman series. Excellent so far.


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## forkmaster

Vaz said:


> There are alternative sources. If GW/BL want to be cunts about cashcowing substandard bollocks, then I won't pay it.


"The friend on the internet."

I've been against this in the past, trying to support the authors. I think when they make LE that doesn't mean anything if you get them or not for the overall story, then I can live with that like _Promethean Sun_ and _Corax Soulforge_. Then that these 2 lacked seriously in not only the content but also in the writing, that's another story. But now that they ship out small digital shorts, audios to fill out in between and the LE crap. I think for instance Tallarn should just have been one proper novel, showing us both the Tallarn and Iron Warriors side. Instead it has been split up in 1 novella and 2 novellas bunched together and called a "full" novel, a shitload of shorts and 2 audio dramas. I only buy those worth getting these days, and there haven't been many of those.



Garviel loken. said:


> I don't understand your mindset at all. We already know the conclusion to this story, so why rush it? Sure we could do without the limited editions, but the novels are going at a good pace


That is true, but it doesn't justify poor badly-written fillers.



Khorne's Fist said:


> French is beginning to creep up on these guys. Might be worth checking out his Ahriman series. Excellent so far.


I would say the first story was decent, the 2nd book was terrible. However his Imperial Fists are forming neatly in the HH-series. I like _The Crimson Fist_ and _Templar_.


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## shaantitus

I have to admit I took a sizeable step back from the HH about 2 years ago. After I bought betrayer and angel exterminatus and realised they were only available in the large format that I needed a break. I have decided I will be less slavish. I still want to complete the series in the small format paperbacks, so I just disconnect for a year or so at a time and then grab the small format ones that have come out. No more letting the anticipation drive my purchases. In fact it was finding several books to add to the series that brought me back here to post. So there is an upside.


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## Brother Emund

I do not read the HH books any more. It is a shame as a was enjoying them. Unfortunateky, cost does come into it, but also, I want to read about the so-called 'lesser-legions' and not all about the poster boys!


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## bitsandkits

im quite shocked how many people have turned away from the series in just our little forum to be honest, if a similar thing is reflected across the board then sales must have seriously dropped off for BL, still it serves them right, how many books can you honestly say the story needed? 20?30? 40? someone at BL must have thought of a number at the start, personally i just wanted to read one story arc, that of horus himself, like we did at the start of the series, other cameos from his brothers, but generally i wanted to read his story up until his demise, many be chuck in a few other related arcs that were fundamental to the Horus story, then at the end when the dust settles, they could have chucked out "other Horus Heresy tales" which featured totally unrelated shit that was happeneing because of the Heresy but didnt involve Horus.
thats was my expectation anyway


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## ntaw

Ah! That might just be the key to disappointment in GW/BL: expectations without any word or guarantee from the company.

Would any of you who are disappointed in the series be more or less disappointed if it just never had happened? I mean would this be the opposite thread otherwise, 'Why Can't We Get HH Books', or are we just doomed to forever bitch about things (like GW/BL) we have no control over based on perceived expectations of quality?

Not trying to be a jerk, I do my fair share of bitching as well. Just curious.


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## doofyoofy

im disappointed in all of the limited editions and some of the stories resembling hack 

stories, rather than any real thought put into them. Also the change to different 

formats pissed/pisses me off quite a bit, they used to come in masspaperback, but 

lately a lot of books have come out in larger formats which cost more.


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## March of Time

doofyoofy said:


> im disappointed in all of the limited editions and some of the stories resembling hack
> 
> stories, rather than any real thought put into them. Also the change to different
> 
> formats pissed/pisses me off quite a bit, they used to come in masspaperback, but
> 
> lately a lot of books have come out in larger formats which cost more.


The small paperback is released six months after the large paperback.


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## kwak76

Lately the new books sucks so I haven't brought anything . Not saying I gave up but waiting for something that is good to come out. Plus I think those limited edition are horrible. Just don't but it and maybe GW realize they are making a mistake and get rid of it. 


I remember the heresy series in the beginning was Ok and producing new books at a decent pace but lately it's just gone down the toilet. I mean there are so many stories to tell in the war hammer 40 k but GW is just doing something stupid. 

I don't know if it's because the writers cannot get their act together or it's because GW is controlling too much of the creative direction.


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## forkmaster

March of Time said:


> The small paperback is released six months after the large paperback.


And usually by the 3rd month, you're spoiled on the big ending. I miss the days when everyone got them roughly the same time, just had to avoid the internet for about a week and then you could join in on the discussions. I remember the speculations and theories about around the time for the release of _A Thousand Sons_ and _Prospero Burns_. You dont get those types of discussions these days as everyone read them anywhere in between 6 months apart. Only _Talon of Horus_ has raised equal discussions when it comes to content.


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## ckcrawford

I think the biggest crime of the series is the fact that the actual story behind the Heresy and before the books was a potential shine in the scifi genre. There are several books that really showed what could be done with such a story, however, lots of crap.


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## gen.ahab

Count_the_Seven said:


> Sadly, I'm out.
> 
> CtS


Same. The entire series took a header after Know No Fear, and since then it has been one heap of crap after the next. Well, Betrayer was halfway decent; however, other than that one, they've all been fairly turd-y.


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## Loli

I dropped off a couple of years ago. I think Angel Exterminartus was my last one. When it got format changes and became full of limited editions, novella and anthologies, that combined with the cost of it just became, to me at least, absurd. I donated my HH books to a charity shop during a clean out about half a year ago now since I realised I was never going to buy the books I missed and it doesn't seem like ending anytime soon. 

I've switched my books now to digital anyway, but a few months ago or so I brought Horus Rising digitally and I got to reread it and I did enjoy it, so I've decided to buy each full book at the end of each month, currently I'm up to Legion and I'm enjoying doing it this way, but I'll never go back to buying them as they come out, nor will be excitement for the series be anywhere near what it was when I started. 

But what I perceive the series to be has changed now too, when I started I viewed it as a somewhat solid Sci Fi ongoing story - even if it's end was predetermined -, but now with how much it's dragging, getting sidetracked, milked etc, I've come to view the series unfortunately now as background for a miniatures game that I play nothing more. 

*sigh*


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## Uveron

Loli said:


> I've come to view the series unfortunately now as background for a miniatures game that I play nothing more.


The Black Libary open Days that focus on this Series, shows at least to me that that's what it has become, it is a hobby to itself, which I understand and enjoy (Iam reading the series very slowly lisstening to the Pod Case After Ullanor along with me) But I do not plan on owning them all.


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## bitsandkits

ntaw said:


> Would any of you who are disappointed in the series be more or less disappointed if it just never had happened? I mean would this be the opposite thread otherwise, 'Why Can't We Get HH Books', or are we just doomed to forever bitch about things (like GW/BL) we have no control over based on perceived expectations of quality?
> 
> Not trying to be a jerk, I do my fair share of bitching as well. Just curious.


well speaking from the point of view of someone whos been kicking around since before black libary existed i would say i wouldnt have been bothered had they not released the series as the story was already a very large and significant amount of the fluff for 40k and in all honesty it was kinda a shock that such a significant part of the back story was chosen to be fleshed out as a series of novels, i suppose that is also one of the reasons i feel they are stringing this out for far too long, we already know the story, the story itself is so intertwined with everything 40k , it is the very foundation of 40k, and as such cant really be changed as at some point Horus has to get slapped by the big E and Sanginus goes down like a five dollar hooker, the legions get divided up and the traitors flee into the ye of terror blah blah etc etc, now granted BL never at any point said we aim to complete the series within 10,20,30,40 books, but realistically speaking as a reader i never for one second thought they could produce this many stories and realistically expect the reader to continue buying the books and be knowhere near the conclusion.

Just to point something out, i think the heresy series has about 29 novels up to press, Terry pratchetts discworld series has 41 books , thats 12 more and he started in 1983 !! BL started HH in 2006.

2006 shocks me a little too, if we put the number of novels aside for a second and just concentrate on the story, April 2006(the first book was released) is almost 9 years ago, now considering they were writing a story about which we already had a significant part of and know the conclusion, how the actual fuck have they managed to spin this stuff out for 9 years ???? and again with no sign of the concluding book in sight? and more to the point if we have already been reading for 9 years to get to this point how many more years are we expected to wait to conclude the story(assuming they ever do)?

and on a related note , if the number of people who have dropped out on this forum alone is reflected in the wider audience will there come a point where the numbers of sales drops to the point where it is financially unwise to carry on the series ?

Something i also wanted to point out that i totally forgot until my wife reminded me yesterday, the HH lack of progress stopped me from purchasing other BL titles, i was really looking forward to reading Gav Thorpes Path of the warrior and other Eldar titles , but having been milked with the HH i decided against it and moved on to Auto Biographies of comedians of all things.


----------



## Angel of Blood

I'm sure a few books or so ago, it was mentioned somewhere that they were at the halfway point.........


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Angel of Blood said:


> I'm sure a few books or so ago, it was mentioned somewhere that they were at the halfway point...


It's a shame it looks like they are going to do the second half of the series in LE novellas and 25 page short stories.


----------



## ntaw

^ maybe because they aren't making money off their full books anymore?


----------



## forkmaster

Khorne's Fist said:


> It's a shame it looks like they are going to do the second half of the series in LE novellas and 25 page short stories.


Spot on and couldn't agree more!


----------



## Paceyjg

bitsandkits said:


> i was really looking forward to reading Gav Thorpes Path of the warrior and other Eldar titles ,


Path of the Warrior and the Dark Elf Path books are excellent reads!


----------



## Vaz

ntaw said:


> ^ maybe because they aren't making money off their full books anymore?


Surely that's their own fault for turning out dogshit?


----------



## Count_the_Seven

I thought this thread would die a death after around 50 posts...

Bits has a similar outlook to mine. I'm also amazed at how many have become ambivalent to, or dropped, the HH series.

Black Library really do seem to have dropped the ball with this series - a complete arc with follow up stories would have worked better IMO. Now they'll get no more of my lucre.

Two weeks after release,there are still 400 copies of the latest Tallarn left: that tells its own story.

CtS


----------



## darkreever

Mind you I have no connection with GW and don't write for Black Library but:



bitsandkits said:


> it was kinda a shock that such a significant part of the back story was chosen to be fleshed out as a series of novels,


Why? Ever since I've been on Heresy I've seen people wanting more on what happened during the years of the Horus Heresy. How figures like the Despoiler or Ahriman or Typhus became the figures they are; what the Imperium was like at its peak, how the Imperium could justify unleashing the wolves on Prospero.



bitsandkits said:


> i suppose that is also one of the reasons i feel they are stringing this out for far too long, we already know the story, the story itself is so intertwined with everything 40k , it is the very foundation of 40k, and as such cant really be changed as at some point Horus has to get slapped by the big E and Sanginus goes down like a five dollar hooker, the legions get divided up and the traitors flee into the ye of terror blah blah etc etc,


This is both true and false. We know what generally happened, that something happened to Horus and he aligned with the chaos gods, that he and three of his brothers purged their legions of those loyal to the Emperor and laid a trap on Istvaan V. We know nearly a decade went by before the traitor legions reached Terra and that in that time Prospero was destroyed, Ferrus Manus killed, Typhus caused his legion to align with Nurgle by having all the navigators in the Death Guard fleet slaughtered while in the warp, and the siege of Terra ended with the death of Horus by a mortally wounded Emperor.

We didn't know what exactly happened to Horus that caused his fall, how much of the Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Raven Guard survived the Massacre, what happened to Corax and Vulkan during the Heresy, why Guilliman, Russ, and the Lion were so waylaid during the Heresy, why the Khan remained loyal, and other things (both relavent and not relavent.)



bitsandkits said:


> Just to point something out, i think the heresy series has about 29 novels up to press, Terry pratchetts discworld series has 41 books , thats 12 more and he started in 1983 !! BL started HH in 2006.


Discworld is a series written by one author over the course of 32 years. Thats just over a book a year.

The Heresy series has between five and ten authors, thats about half a book per author per year. And when you consider that some of these authors have been writing other novels or have been meeting other commitments (I believe Abnett also does comics?) that number means much less in my opinion.



bitsandkits said:


> how the actual fuck have they managed to spin this stuff out for 9 years ???? and again with no sign of the concluding book in sight?


I think authors having other commitments is the best answer for that first bit (remember ADB was writing at least one of his Night Lord novels and Talon of Horus while also writing for the Heresy series and Abnett was unable to work on Prospero Burns for a while due to medical reasons.)

And personally I wouldn't say no end in sight; look at what we have that was previously known and whats left. Theres not all that much: the silent war, the changing of the Death Guard, Magnus making his choice, the Siege itself.



bitsandkits said:


> and on a related note , if the number of people who have dropped out on this forum alone is reflected in the wider audience will there come a point where the numbers of sales drops to the point where it is financially unwise to carry on the series ?


I doubt we are indicative of the wider audience, and I doubt the authors wouldn't fight to end the series if it looks like things are going to shut down. Just because some of us like to say they are milking all of us doesn't mean its 100% true.


----------



## ntaw

Vaz said:


> Surely that's their own fault for turning out dogshit?


Wrong turn after wrong turn for BL. People aren't buying the books because they stretched the series out too much, so they switch to novellas to entice smaller buys and reads only to find out their fan base hate that shit too.

I wonder if this company even does market research.


----------



## Brother Subtle

Haha, "switch to novellas to entice smaller buys". Formula doesn't quite fit when the novellas are twice the price of a full sized novel. 

Paying twice as much, for half as much.


----------



## ntaw

Brother Subtle said:


> Formula doesn't quite fit when the novellas are twice the price of a full sized novel.


:laugh: balls! I figured they were less...I must confess there's a lot of ways to get these books and it wasn't the prices that drove me away, but the content.


----------



## Tawa

ntaw said:


> I wonder if this company even does market research.


They're part of GW, so probably not :laugh:



Brother Subtle said:


> Haha, "switch to novellas to entice smaller buys". Formula doesn't quite fit when the novellas are twice the price of a full sized novel.
> 
> Paying twice as much, for half as much.


And this probably acts as it's own answer to the first bit


----------



## Garviel loken.

Im surprised how many whiny children are on this forum


----------



## darkreever

Garviel loken. said:


> Im surprised how many whiny children are on this forum


Really?

Because a comment like that definitely doesn't make you sound/look as bad or worse.


----------



## Garviel loken.

darkreever said:


> Really?
> 
> Because a comment like that definitely doesn't make you sound/look as bad or worse.


If someone doesnt like the HH thats fine. Make a point and leave it at that. We dont need the same people whining about it for 15 pages


----------



## darkreever

People are explaining their reasons for leaving the series, why they think others are leaving the series, what they think the problem(s) is, or giving an opinion about the matter. Thats generally how threads go; if you don't like this thread then why are you even bothering to comment in it?


----------



## Zion

Garviel loken. said:


> If someone doesnt like the HH thats fine. Make a point and leave it at that. We dont need the same people whining about it for 15 pages


What we don't need are people pulling threads off topic. That's why intentional derailing of threads is a rule breaking offense. Opinion threads like this don't break any rules and have every reason to exist as any other thread. So would you kindly take your off topic posts somewhere else before modhammers are deployed? Thank you.


----------



## Mob

I think this graphic helps show why the series has gotten so off-putting to follow for some people in the last few years.


----------



## Brother Subtle

Well done to whoever made that. Shows clearly the Heresy message has been lost due to over complication of it's delivery to fans.


----------



## Garviel loken.

darkreever said:


> People are explaining their reasons for leaving the series, why they think others are leaving the series, what they think the problem(s) is, or giving an opinion about the matter. Thats generally how threads go; if you don't like this thread then why are you even bothering to comment in it?


If people feel this strongly about the HH, then man up and voice there concerns to BL directly, instead of complaining here. Maybe if they actually do something and speak up to BL, they will take what they say into consideration and make changes. Whining about the HH series here is pointless.


----------



## gen.ahab

Garviel loken. said:


> If people feel this strongly about the HH, then man up and voice there concerns to BL directly, instead of complaining here. Maybe if they actually do something and speak up to BL, they will take what they say into consideration and make changes. Whining about the HH series here is pointless.


Right, crash course in consumer-producer communications: 

Producers exist to meet the demands of the consumer. If the consumer becomes dissatisfied with a producers product, they stop purchasing. The producer then notes the subsequent loss in profits and then attempts to make changes designed improve those profits. 

Simple version: By not buying their shit, we are bringing our concerns directly to BL.

EDIT: If they are incapable of using google to figure out why their shit done broke, something my 5 year old cousin can do, they probably don't deserve to be in business.

EDIT: EDIT: Or breathing, for that matter.


----------



## ckcrawford

I think if the series failed from the beginning I would agree, that theres no point in crying about another lost science fiction series. However, the lore was there and there were some great stories created. 

In this light, the series hasn't come down to failure, but disappointment and butchery. Again, a bad series is a bad series. However, a series with great background and having some really great novels is just fricken sad and aggravating. The series went on for 9 years now, I'm sure you can start to see how insensitive your comment are, Garviel loken.

As far as market goes, I wonder about those market things. Is GW trying to be exclusive? The series really had a following of its own that could have spread beyond the game. I mean partially thats probably what motivated that Ultramarines movie.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Garviel loken. said:


> If people feel this strongly about the HH, then man up and voice there concerns to BL directly, instead of complaining here. Maybe if they actually do something and speak up to BL, they will take what they say into consideration and make changes. Whining about the HH series here is pointless.


Man up.........man...up. That's what you're running with here is it? I'm not even going to begin arguing how retail works with you. What I am going to do is echo what darkreever said. If you don't like this thread, then don't read it. Simple. Are we whining? Poor and immature choice of words, complaining would be more sensible and less confrontational, but whatever, you seem to be looking to piss people off. But sure, we're complaining. For one, it's cathartic, everyone likes to complain, it helps, it's also good to see what others are thinking, promotes a good discussion on where the Heresy series lost it's way (that is until someone like you comes in to derail it). But mostly, it's damn justified. 

BL are taking the piss now. On a business level they have hit a great profit model and have turned the series into the proverbial cash cow that it now is, pumping out constant high price limited editions and novellas. Sure they aren't selling out as fast as they used to. But they are selling, and I guarantee it's still packing profit. Maybe not as much as before, but profitable nevertheless. The majority of us on here, aren't impressed with the direction they've taken the series. Even if we were to complain, and in an unprecedented move, they listened to a forum....a fucking forum, complaining about it and changed it all. It wouldn't happen overnight, it would take ages. And people are willing to keep committing their money to a fuckton of LE's in the meantime. 


TL;DR If you don't like this thread, stop whining about it.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

This thread is in a way bringing our complaints to BL. ADB is a member, even if he hasn't been on in a couple of months. If and when he does come back on, wether he comments on this thread or not, the general feeling of dismay at the direction the series is going within what up to now has been a largely supportive and appreciative group will filter back. I'm sure this is not the only forum where similar feelings are being expressed either. Hopefully they will get the message.


----------



## forkmaster

Also it's not just complaining for the sake of it, but with justification.


----------



## Garviel loken.

forkmaster said:


> Also it's not just complaining for the sake of it, but with justification.


Yes i realise there is a point to it all, but i think it would be far more productive if we as a community actually did something about it rather than just talk about it here.


----------



## gen.ahab

Garviel loken. said:


> Yes i realise there is a point to it all, but i think it would be far more productive if we as a community actually did something about it rather than just talk about it here.


I would like to refer back to my "not buying their shit" comment.


----------



## Garviel loken.

gen.ahab said:


> I would like to refer back to my "not buying their shit" comment.


Yes that makes a statement, but i dont want to see harm done to BL. I would rather them know what the fans think, then straight up boycott them


----------



## Doelago

Garviel loken. said:


> Yes that makes a statement, but i dont want to see harm done to BL. I would rather them know what the fans think, then straight up boycott them


We used to tell them what we thought but then they buried their head in the sand and erased any and all social media presence they had, because reasons.


----------



## Garviel loken.

Doelago said:


> We used to tell them what we thought but then they buried their head in the sand and erased any and all social media presence they had, because reasons.


yes that is true


----------



## ntaw

Garviel loken. said:


> Yes that makes a statement, but i dont want to see harm done to BL.


No long term harm will be done if their bottom line is affected and they adapt to increase sales the way their customer base is trending. If they're not interested in finding out what customers want and adapting to survive as a business how far do they really deserve to get?


----------



## gen.ahab

Garviel loken. said:


> Yes that makes a statement, but i dont want to see harm done to BL. I would rather them know what the fans think, then straight up boycott them


OK, companies are kinda like little kids. No matter how many times you tell them you're disappointed, they only really care about their cookies. If you keep giving them cookies, they will keep doing whatever it is that's pissing you off, regardless of what you tell them. The trick to getting them to listen is to stop giving them cookies. Same with businesses. The trick to getting them to listen to you is to stop paying them. 

You don't have to boycott them, just not buy HH books. It's really that simple. 

Of course they're still making bank of that series, so it doesn't really matter; but, hey, even if they don't change whatever they're doing with the series, you're not wasting money on bad books. Still a win in my book.


----------



## Garviel loken.

gen.ahab said:


> OK, companies are kinda like little kids. No matter how many times you tell them you're disappointed, they only really care about their cookies. If you keep giving them cookies, they will keep doing whatever it is that's pissing you off, regardless of what you tell them. The trick to getting them to listen is to stop giving them cookies. Same with businesses. The trick to getting them to listen to you is to stop paying them.
> 
> You don't have to boycott them, just not buy HH books. It's really that simple.
> 
> Of course they're still making bank of that series, so it doesn't really matter; but, hey, even if they don't change whatever they're doing with the series, you're not wasting money on bad books. Still a win in my book.


Tho, can we really blame BL for the poor novels as of late? I think that is more of poor writers. Really only Abnett, ADB, french, and counter should touch the heresy


----------



## Mob

Brother Subtle said:


> Well done to whoever made that. Shows clearly the Heresy message has been lost due to over complication of it's delivery to fans.


Thanks. If I believed in conspiracy theories I'd say that the poor design of the BL website and the paucity of info about upcoming releases is tied into the plan to obfuscate the product so much so that people can't make clear, comfortable purchasing choices and so rely on the collector / gotta-catch-em-all / loyalty instinct that just buy everything as it comes out. Despite it being a poor deal in the long term (and increasingly, the short term). Oh wait, this is a business, I guess I do believe it.

I think they're onto a dodgy path not only in terms of ethical treatment of the customers, but in terms of quality product for your money. While personal preference of course makes what I'm about to say just a general statement you can take or leave, anecdotal online and from friends comments and decent, non hype reviews and common sense have all been saying that, in the main, the series has take a sustained dip in general quality in the last two years. The same time the number and complexity of product has exploded.

Okay, personal bias time. I don't think Nick Kyme's stuff is very good. Like, it's just not. So his stuff being expensive limited edition material is laughable to me. It's not worth the money to read middlingly-plotted high-school level prose. But that was absorbable in a quality analysis when released in the same year as other material which either was variously worth the inflated limited edition price, or just good quality regular material. 

What I'm seeing now is the same situation being repeated - far too regularly, in terms of initial cost or exclusivity values - but without the absorbent nature of easily accessible, lower-cost material to take the strain. It's not just that there isn't enough of the regular release, value-for-money material (there isn't) it's also that not only is the quality arguably not really there anymore, this base-level material that allows you to build more expensive and complex product on top of, ALSO comes out in poor value fashion; over-priced hardback, pointless trade edition (I used to work in the book industry and could rant about these things) and then finally, mass market edition. The mm edition's worth now having been devalued by being a year or more delayed in release, meaning that the fanbase who only purchase them are left feeling dissatisfied.

tl;dr - BL have embraced maximum we-want-your-money too hastily and are at risk of damaging the entire product line in the two years or so ahead either through sustained neglect of 'ordinary' customers or if something unexpected and seriously bad happens that generates a consumer backlash or about-face. Though to be honest, that doesn't really happen in this kind of product.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Garviel loken. said:


> Tho, can we really blame BL for the poor novels as of late? I think that is more of poor writers. Really only Abnett, ADB, french, and counter should touch the heresy


Well Black Library are employing them. So sure, of course we can. But hell, the piss-poor writing isn't the only issue here. If only ADB and Abnett wrote every Limited Edition they released, we would still be annoyed. Because the LE's are taking the piss. They were meant to be, or at least it seemed like they were meant to be, one off novellas released every once in a while between every 'x' amount of full novels. Whilst not being essential to the series plot, more of a bonus that you could miss without losing any important fluff or plot. Aurellian did this perfectly, it fleshed out what Lorgar experienced when he went into they Eye. Nice to know sure, but if I hadn't read it, I wouldn't have missed anything plotwise. 

Now however, there are endless expensive LE novellas and now LE's novels, though they aren't quite the same length as a normal full novel, but twice the price for the fun of it. 

Oh of course, then there's the format releases. I like the Collectors Editions, I always like really big special editions of novels. I'd buy hardback collectors editions of Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Gaunts Ghosts, the Night Lords series in a heartbeat if they released them (see this is the only part they will take note of if they see this post). But why release the trade paper back 6 months later? That just penalises people who don't want large, lavish books, which a lot of people don't, or more pressingly, don't want to spend that kind of money.

Don't even get me started on the anthology releases that are 90% what we already have read from eBook shorts or the Limited Editions with perhaps one, maybe two new shorts.


----------



## Vaz

Counter can get fucked. As can Abnett if he turns out crap like The Unremembered Empire again.


----------



## Garviel loken.

Angel of Blood said:


> Well Black Library are employing them. So sure, of course we can. But hell, the piss-poor writing isn't the only issue here. If only ADB and Abnett wrote every Limited Edition they released, we would still be annoyed. Because the LE's are taking the piss. They were meant to be, or at least it seemed like they were meant to be, one off novellas released every once in a while between every 'x' amount of full novels. Whilst not being essential to the series plot, more of a bonus that you could miss without losing any important fluff or plot. Aurellian did this perfectly, it fleshed out what Lorgar experienced when he went into they Eye. Nice to know sure, but if I hadn't read it, I wouldn't have missed anything plotwise.
> 
> Now however, there are endless expensive LE novellas and now LE's novels, though they aren't quite the same length as a normal full novel, but twice the price for the fun of it.
> 
> Oh of course, then there's the format releases. I like the Collectors Editions, I always like really big special editions of novels. I'd buy hardback collectors editions of Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Gaunts Ghosts, the Night Lords series in a heartbeat if they released them (see this is the only part they will take note of if they see this post). But why release the trade paper back 6 months later? That just penalises people who don't want large, lavish books, which a lot of people don't, or more pressingly, don't want to spend that kind of money.
> 
> Don't even get me started on the anthology releases that are 90% what we already have read from eBook shorts or the Limited Editions with perhaps one, maybe two new shorts.


Oh trust me, the LE need to go. They are pissing me off as much as everyone else. Im fine with one or two a year, but it has gotten ridiculous. 

And the 2 novels a year is just wrong


----------



## Garviel loken.

Vaz said:


> Counter can get fucked. As can Abnett if he turns out crap like The Unremembered Empire again.


Counter is good. Galaxy in flames was one of the best imo. Unremembered empire was good too.


----------



## Vaz

... Not really.

... And no it wasn't


----------



## darkreever

Vaz said:


> ... Not really.
> 
> ... And no it wasn't


Thats a matter of opinion @Vaz, just like its @Garviel loken's opinion that they are good.

I mean personally I loved Galaxy in Flames but found The Unremembered Empire to be mediocre.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Garviel loken. said:


> Really only Abnett, ADB, french, and *counter* should touch the heresy


Are you sure you don't mean Wraight? Counter gave us the universally derided Battle of the Abyss


----------



## forkmaster

Garviel loken. said:


> Yes that makes a statement, but i dont want to see harm done to BL. I would rather them know what the fans think, then straight up boycott them


Well my understanding of marketing when selling products is that nobody listen to the opinions on the Internet. Because otherwise _Firefly_ wouldn't have been cancelled or Kim Kardashian wouldn't be famous. But companies do listen to numbers. Terrible games like _COD_ are continued to be sold since 12-year-olds keeps on buying them. This thread was mostly aimed to see the opinions of others how the series has fallen as of late and it has been obvious in the drop of thread-discussions regarding the novels. I haven't seen a interactive discussion regarding a novel from the series since _TOD_ because it was so terrible. I do want BL to keep up high quality-material but they focus on the wrong things and market it the wrong way.



Doelago said:


> We used to tell them what we thought but then they buried their head in the sand and erased any and all social media presence they had, because reasons.


This! Forge World did the same mistake with their Youtube-channel.



Garviel loken. said:


> Tho, can we really blame BL for the poor novels as of late? I think that is more of poor writers. Really only Abnett, ADB, french, and counter should touch the heresy


I would really not keep Counter on that list and replace it with Wraight, and at certain times I still believe in McNeill.



darkreever said:


> Thats a matter of opinion @Vaz, just like its @Garviel loken's opinion that they are good.
> 
> I mean personally I loved Galaxy in Flames but found The Unremembered Empire to be mediocre.


But at the same time BftA was god-awful, but all opinions to their own taste. 



MontytheMighty said:


> Are you sure you don't mean Wraight? Counter gave us the universally derided Battle of the Abyss


I would wonder the same.


----------



## Brother Subtle

darkreever said:


> but found The Unremembered Empire to be mediocre.


And I quite liked it! Everyone has different tastes.

Well... Except for _Battle of the Abyss_. That was a steaming turd and I just can't accept accolades for that book from anyone! Haha. 



forkmaster said:


> I would really not keep Counter on that list and replace it with Wraight, and at certain times I still believe in McNeill.


Yeah, scratch Counter from that list. There are newer, younger and better authors entering BL now. I think his time has come and gone. French, Wright and Annadale are fantastic IMO. And don't right off old Anthony Reynolds. Love his 40K WB trilogy and quite enjoyed _The Purge_ HH novella. He writes great WB's! (Nearly as good as ADB). As for McNeill. He can dish up the odd stinker, but then deliver something great out of left field like _Mechanicum_. Very hit and miss.


----------



## forkmaster

Brother Subtle said:


> Yeah, scratch Counter from that list. There are newer, younger and better authors entering BL now. I think his time has come and gone. French, Wright and Annadale are fantastic IMO. And don't right off old Anthony Reynolds. Love his 40K WB trilogy and quite enjoyed _The Purge_ HH novella. He writes great WB's! (Nearly as good as ADB). As for McNeill. He can dish up the odd stinker, but then deliver something great out of left field like _Mechanicum_. Very hit and miss.


Annandale I've heard mixxed reviews from and I haven't read his HH-novel yet, and I aren't all that excited about it. Anthony Reynolds does great writing but he haven't written much for the HH-series which is why I think he falls into the background very easily. He has done 2 shorts and a LE novella, with the latter something not everyone get to read and enjoy. 

McNeill did a good job with _Fulgrim_ (I can see its flaws now but still a good book), _Reflection Crack'd_ lowered that bar a little but still works and then he delivered _A Thousand Sons_ which were excellente. But then he delivers failures like _The Outcast Dead_ and to some extent, _Angel Exterminatus_ (the EC-parts of that novel is it's only redemption). I actually like Nick Kymes shorts which continue after where _Angel Exterminatus_ ended with _Imperfection_ and _Chirurgeon_. _Mechanicum_ was well-written. The only problem is that I'm not that interested in the Mechanicum-part of the Heresy.


----------



## bitsandkits

Mob said:


> I think this graphic helps show why the series has gotten so off-putting to follow for some people in the last few years.


well i have to say that little graphic speaks volumes about the series and if milking it was ever in any doubt it shouldnt be.


----------



## Tawa

Garviel loken. said:


> Counter is good.


Really? Have you read the soul drinkers stuff? "Soul Destroying" would be a more accurate title.......



MontytheMighty said:


> Are you sure you don't mean Wraight? Counter gave us the universally derided Battle of the Abysmal


Fixed that for you Monty


----------



## Garviel loken.

MontytheMighty said:


> Are you sure you don't mean Wraight? Counter gave us the universally derided Battle of the Abyss


Well galaxy in flames is my second favourite novel, tho i havent read abyss out of fear


----------



## Garviel loken.

Tawa said:


> Really? Have you read the soul drinkers stuff? "Soul Destroying" would be a more accurate title.......
> 
> 
> 
> Fixed that for you Monty


No i havent. Tho i heard good things about it if i recall correctly. Its not good at all?


----------



## Garviel loken.

I like mcniell, but i find he over uses metaphors and over explains things. I liked VS.....well i liked the knight errant bits


----------



## Tawa

Garviel loken. said:


> No i havent. Tho i heard good things about it if i recall correctly. Its not good at all?


Bought the first two, and I genuinely struggled to finish the first one. I've never even bothered to open the second one, and I bought it in 2003. Utter dross.


----------



## darkreever

Garviel loken. said:


> No i havent. Tho i heard good things about it if i recall correctly. Its not good at all?


The first two aren't that bad (I rather like The Bleeding Chalice myself) and then it just goes downhill from there.


----------



## MontytheMighty

forkmaster said:


> Annandale I've heard mixxed reviews from and I haven't read his HH-novel yet, and I aren't all that excited about it.


I think Annandale, Sanders, and Smilie are decent but not great. John French is showing promise


----------



## Garviel loken.

MontytheMighty said:


> I think Annandale, Sanders, and Smilie are decent but not great. John French is showing promise


Annadale is actually a prof at my university. I should talk to him one of these days, maybe ask him about the current state of the heresy


----------



## forkmaster

MontytheMighty said:


> I think Annandale, Sanders, and Smilie are decent but not great. John French is showing promise


Sanders did a great job with his short _Iron Within_ and _The Serpent Beneath_ though, but I see what youre getting at. I haven't read any of Smilies stuff but from the looks of it, it appears he has taken over the torch for the Blood Angels after Swallows disastrous _Fear to Tread_. I will get back on what I think about his work.  John French has done some good HH-stuff. I'm not a big fan at all of his Ahriman-stuff though. It showed potential but he wasted it big time.



Garviel loken. said:


> Annadale is actually a prof at my university. I should talk to him one of these days, maybe ask him about the current state of the heresy


You definitely should. I follow him on Twitter and appears to quite a nice guy.  Get an autograph while you're at it.


----------



## Garviel loken.

forkmaster said:


> Sanders did a great job with his short _Iron Within_ and _The Serpent Beneath_ though, but I see what youre getting at. I haven't read any of Smilies stuff but from the looks of it, it appears he has taken over the torch for the Blood Angels after Swallows disastrous _Fear to Tread_. I will get back on what I think about his work.  John French has done some good HH-stuff. I'm not a big fan at all of his Ahriman-stuff though. It showed potential but he wasted it big time.
> 
> 
> 
> You definitely should. I follow him on Twitter and appears to quite a nice guy.  Get an autograph while you're at it.


Ya i will. Perhaps i will befriend him, and then in due time, i will have complete control over the rest of the heresy....


----------



## MontytheMighty

Garviel loken. said:


> Annadale is actually a prof at my university. I should talk to him one of these days, maybe ask him about the current state of the heresy


Annandale is all right...I think he dabbles in purpose prose sometimes 




forkmaster said:


> Sanders did a great job with his short _Iron Within_ and _The Serpent Beneath_ though, but I see what youre getting at.


I liked the Serpent Beneath. I found the Iron Within to be a decent read...wasn't really _that_ impressed. His Space Marines Battles book and his Inquisitor book were so-so IMO



> Swallows disastrous _Fear to Tread_


Disastrous indeed


----------



## Roninman

Garviel loken. said:


> Well galaxy in flames is my second favourite novel, tho i havent read abyss out of fear


Any author could have written galaxy in flames after Abnett and Mcneill made characters of what they are. Galaxy in flames is basically just battle novel, decent but nothing special. I dont think Counter added anything new what previous authors of trilogy already established.

And i still cant forget that stupid Loken moment at the end....


----------



## Garviel loken.

Roninman said:


> Any author could have written galaxy in flames after Abnett and Mcneill made characters of what they are. Galaxy in flames is basically just battle novel, decent but nothing special. I dont think Counter added anything new what previous authors of trilogy already established.
> 
> And i still cant forget that stupid Loken moment at the end....


I liked that moment....: Wouldn't it be the biggest troll if in the last heresy book they say the same thing as they did in Galaxy in flames about LOKEN. As in "and then he felt nothing"


----------



## Angel of Blood

Galaxy in Flames does still have one of my favourite quotes of the series though.

"Then you are welcome on my ship, Iacton Qruze."
"And who are you?" asked Qruze.
"I am Captain Nathaniel Garro, of the Eisenstein."

Fuck yeah.


----------



## dsol

I am new to this site but I am so thankful I signed up. This thread has answered the questions I have had for months now. I have fallen behind on my reading of this series ( partly due to me trying out a WOW book and going back to a few favorite Ultra Marines novels) but have notice the rapidly growing list of books in the series. I have purchased the full novels up to Fulgrim and have no desire to purchase any more after my thoughts were confirmed in this thread about the lack of progression in the story line due to GW/BL quest for the all mighty dollar.


----------



## MolsonSS

*BL is very frustrating...*

I started buying the paper backs in 2007, then switched to ebooks once they came out. I knew hardly anything about 'warhammer 40k', but I was captivated by the premise of the heresy, and the Emperor's supposed divinity. I'm not a collector, I don't do the miniatures, I just really like the story. I have purchased every novel and short story, with the exception of the limited editions (I can't justify spending that much money on a book). No matter how good or bad the story might have been, I gladly spent my money on them because I enjoy reading this series! 

And this is what I don't understand... Why BL has made it so difficult for me to give them my money! There doesn't seem to be any official means of finding upcoming releases, and there also seems to be fewer books released! It's as though BL has set the bar too high, and are now unable to meet fan's expectations. Are they losing their best authors to other publishers? It's the only explanation that makes any sense to me... It seems like Dan Abnett doesn't even work for them anymore!

Seriously, release another novel like Battle for the Abyss, I don't care... Just let me read!


----------



## Garviel loken.

MolsonSS said:


> I started buying the paper backs in 2007, then switched to ebooks once they came out. I knew hardly anything about 'warhammer 40k', but I was captivated by the premise of the heresy, and the Emperor's supposed divinity. I'm not a collector, I don't do the miniatures, I just really like the story. I have purchased every novel and short story, with the exception of the limited editions (I can't justify spending that much money on a book). No matter how good or bad the story might have been, I gladly spent my money on them because I enjoy reading this series!
> 
> And this is what I don't understand... Why BL has made it so difficult for me to give them my money! There doesn't seem to be any official means of finding upcoming releases, and there also seems to be fewer books released! It's as though BL has set the bar too high, and are now unable to meet fan's expectations. Are they losing their best authors to other publishers? It's the only explanation that makes any sense to me... It seems like Dan Abnett doesn't even work for them anymore!
> 
> Seriously, release another novel like Battle for the Abyss, I don't care... Just let me read!


Dan Abnett still works for them, he just has other commitments with games, and other publishers.


----------



## Phoebus

The number of books published thus far (or that will be by the time the series is over) isn't what's really bothering me about the Horus Heresy series. Just two or three years ago, people across the various fora on the internet were fuming not about the series having _too many_ titles, but about the fact that so many of the Legions were underrepresented.

Nor is it necessarily the various shorts, audio dramas, etc. There are twenty legions out there. Most have at least one character that a number of people out there are interested in following. And then there's the fact that this is a war of *galactic* scope, and for Black Library to stick with a straightforward charge through the decade the Heresy lasted would be to miss a metric shit-ton of opportunities to tell amazing stories.

I can't even say it's the Limited Edition or event-specific stuff, truthfully. Really, the only reason that affected me was when I had to wait one or two years to read some story - especially when it might be the only Legion-specific thing that particular year. I could care less if the Limited Edition/event-specifc bit is handled like the last few First Edition books, where you get the _choice_ to pay a premium for a collectible item and then have the opportunity to buy it in some other format (eBook, hardback, etc.).

My issue is that the series has been badly planned-out and/or executed. Right now, the only thing that seems to be working out well is the coordination for a cohesive timeline and a focus on specific stories set in specific settings. E.g., "This year we're focusing on Calth. Next year, we're focusing on Shattered Legions." We're still getting uneven coverage of all the factions/legions, though. We're still getting disjointed, confusing updates to storylines. We still get authors working on pet projects that don't advance the storyline (Corax and XIX Legion, I'm looking at you!) while being forced to wait year after year to get to find out crucial stuff (like, as others mentioned, why the hell Magnus has chosen to throw his lot in with Horus). We're getting stories that introduce contradictory, non-sensical twists and turns, and have to wait months (or even longer) for an audio drama or short story that purports to "explain" what was shown earlier.

And that's before we get into the quality of the individual reads themselves!

Honestly, I'd be in the same camp with a lot of people on this thread if my wife and I hadn't brought into this world children in back-to-back years. The fact that I've had so little time to engage in the luxury of reading-as-a-hobby has meant that I didn't register having to wait for anthologies to be released, or audio dramas being converted to written format (since listening to audiobooks is even more challenging with infants or toddlers). I didn't feel any impatience for something like _Corax: Soulforge_ because when time is at a premium, you can't afford to act on completionist instincts for something that you know isn't going to be worth two or three times the price of a normal Heresy novel.

I still think the Horus Heresy has the opportunity to rebound and capture imaginations again. It saddens me that excellent writers like Dembski-Bowden and Abnett seem to be getting burnt out on the ongoing burden this series must have become. I'm glad Black Library has found writers like French, Sanders, and Wraight, who have shown the creativity and chops to not just supplement those efforts but bring their own spark in the series as well.

For right now, though, there seems to be too much of an emphasis on pushing "exclusive", "limited", and "collectible" entries for a premium price. I hate to say this, because it assumes bad things from people I think are ultimately good folk that are genuinely invested in this setting, but the bottom line (read: profit margin) seems to have become a greater priority over telling a story the best way possible. With that priority in place, it seems to be a case of "Why sell a 400-page novel when you could instead sell a 300-page novel, an 80-page novella, and a couple audio dramas, short stories, or e-shorts?"


----------



## Phoebus

Mob said:


> Thanks. If I believed in conspiracy theories I'd say that the poor design of the BL website and the paucity of info about upcoming releases is tied into the plan to obfuscate the product so much so that people can't make clear, comfortable purchasing choices and so rely on the collector / gotta-catch-em-all / loyalty instinct that just buy everything as it comes out. Despite it being a poor deal in the long term (and increasingly, the short term). Oh wait, this is a business, I guess I do believe it.
> 
> I think they're onto a dodgy path not only in terms of ethical treatment of the customers, but in terms of quality product for your money. While personal preference of course makes what I'm about to say just a general statement you can take or leave, anecdotal online and from friends comments and decent, non hype reviews and common sense have all been saying that, in the main, the series has take a sustained dip in general quality in the last two years. The same time the number and complexity of product has exploded.
> 
> Okay, personal bias time. I don't think Nick Kyme's stuff is very good. Like, it's just not. So his stuff being expensive limited edition material is laughable to me. It's not worth the money to read middlingly-plotted high-school level prose. But that was absorbable in a quality analysis when released in the same year as other material which either was variously worth the inflated limited edition price, or just good quality regular material.
> 
> What I'm seeing now is the same situation being repeated - far too regularly, in terms of initial cost or exclusivity values - but without the absorbent nature of easily accessible, lower-cost material to take the strain. It's not just that there isn't enough of the regular release, value-for-money material (there isn't) it's also that not only is the quality arguably not really there anymore, this base-level material that allows you to build more expensive and complex product on top of, ALSO comes out in poor value fashion; over-priced hardback, pointless trade edition (I used to work in the book industry and could rant about these things) and then finally, mass market edition. The mm edition's worth now having been devalued by being a year or more delayed in release, meaning that the fanbase who only purchase them are left feeling dissatisfied.
> 
> tl;dr - BL have embraced maximum we-want-your-money too hastily and are at risk of damaging the entire product line in the two years or so ahead either through sustained neglect of 'ordinary' customers or if something unexpected and seriously bad happens that generates a consumer backlash or about-face. Though to be honest, that doesn't really happen in this kind of product.





Angel of Blood said:


> ... Because the LE's are taking the piss. They were meant to be, or at least it seemed like they were meant to be, one off novellas released every once in a while between every 'x' amount of full novels. Whilst not being essential to the series plot, more of a bonus that you could miss without losing any important fluff or plot. Aurellian did this perfectly, it fleshed out what Lorgar experienced when he went into they Eye. Nice to know sure, but if I hadn't read it, I wouldn't have missed anything plotwise.
> 
> Now however, there are endless expensive LE novellas and now LE's novels, though they aren't quite the same length as a normal full novel, but twice the price for the fun of it.


For the record: I need to spread more Reputation around before I can award you guys some for these posts, but I wish I could. Like, NOW.

The thing that scares me about the status quo is that it looks like the focus is increasingly on maximizing profits via increasingly expensive entries aimed at the existing customer base instead of trying to get more customers into the game. Imagine someone who got into the Horus Heresy series by word of mouth or by a book cover catching their eye in a bookstore today: the number of audio dramas, e-shorts, and limited edition stuff would, on its own, be terrifying. *Making sense of it all,* in terms of what fits where and when, would be an even greater challenge!



Angel of Blood said:


> Don't even get me started on the anthology releases that are 90% what we already have read from eBook shorts or the Limited Editions with perhaps one, maybe two new shorts.


The anthology format, in itself, doesn't bother me. What I think *is* a travesty is the utter lack of effort to provide a rather loyal customer base with an accessible, regularly updated product that shows where each story - regardless of format - falls. How hard would that be? More than one private party has attempted to do so, via graphics, Excel-based spreadsheets, etc. Why is it that the only effort on the part of Black Library (that I'm aware of) was a "reading order list" _that more or less followed the order in which the various releases were published?_


----------



## forkmaster

Phoebus said:


> The anthology format, in itself, doesn't bother me. What I think *is* a travesty is the utter lack of effort to provide a rather loyal customer base with an accessible, regularly updated product that shows where each story - regardless of format - falls. How hard would that be? More than one private party has attempted to do so, via graphics, Excel-based spreadsheets, etc. Why is it that the only effort on the part of Black Library (that I'm aware of) was a "reading order list" _that more or less followed the order in which the various releases were published?_


I agree that I have no problem with an anthology once in a while, since many shorts have been good depending on the author. But I hate that the digital shorts are spread out and released more often than needed. Get them collected together and _then_ sell it.


----------



## Paceyjg

I just had a look at the HH range on the BL website - http://www.blacklibrary.com/our-ranges-horus-heresy.html

I had no idea there was such much content (I only buy the MM paperbacks but I've still read them all the way up to Vengeful Spirit).

Why anyone new would want to get into the series is beyond me! My loyalty is flagging in the extreme and it seems the next MM paperbacks due for release - The Damnation of Pythos and Legacies of Betrayal are still flagged as 'currently unavailable' in my Amazon shopping basket. If they aren't going to stock them in that format, then sadly my time buying BL books will be at an end.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Paceyjg said:


> The Damnation of Pythos still flagged as 'currently unavailable' in my Amazon shopping basket.


That right there, is nothing but a good thing.


----------



## Paceyjg

Angel of Blood said:


> That right there, is nothing but a good thing.


:grin:


----------



## Phoebus

You know, I was torn about _Damnation._

On the one hand, I thought it featured some interesting characters. It went a step farther than the usual "the flesh is weak!" throw-away lines that have defined the Iron Hands thus far. On the other hand, I just wasn't engaged by the "Dinosaurs on Steroids!" angle that dominated so much of the story. The twist, such as it was, regarding the colonists was obvious from the get-go. And, worst of all, the plot just didn't meaningfully advance the overall storyline. I found myself wondering, much as with _Battle for the Abyss,_ why this wasn't a novella, an audio drama, or something other than one of the only two or three Heresy novels we get to enjoy in a given year.

I thought Annandale showed a lot of promise with this story, but I just didn't feel the tale he told really needed to be Book XXX in the Horus Heresy.


----------



## ckcrawford

I'm kind of surprised they didn't stick with writing Legion stories. I thought that was the most successful thing for the series. Would have thought they would have really built a stronger following before trying to milk the series. 

I feel that _Angel Exterminatus_ and _Fear to Tread_ were kind of forced as legion stories to get the ball rolling. 

I feel that the second compilation of short stories, _Age of Darkness_, was the turning point for the Heresy where they focused on writing lots of individual and quite frankly strange stories. They came in forms of limited novels, compilations, and frankly stories that never should have been written. While fans are left wondering why the majority of the legions chose the paths they took.


----------



## Count_the_Seven

Recent announcements prove my initial point: I remain out...


----------



## Loli

Count_the_Seven said:


> Recent announcements prove my initial point: I remain out...


What announcements? Sorry I don't keep up with BL news much anymore so apologies if this is all common knowledge to everyone else


----------



## Tawa

Loli said:


> What announcements? Sorry I don't keep up with BL news much anymore so apologies if this is all common knowledge to everyone else


Nope, I don't know what the "recent announcements" are. :scratchhead:


----------



## ckcrawford

I feel like _Battle of the Abyss_ was the first of many novels that were simply used to take up space. Theres just so many ridiculous filler novels that you have to wonder, with all the success and attention they had creating certain novels, they just decided to go the other way.


----------



## Garviel loken.

ckcrawford said:


> I feel like _Battle of the Abyss_ was the first of many novels that were simply used to take up space. Theres just so many ridiculous filler novels that you have to wonder, with all the success and attention they had creating certain novels, they just decided to go the other way.


I disagree that any novel is a filler. This is the authors chance to truly flesh out the heresy. I have never understood the mindset of rushing a story we know the ending to. Nothing wrong in my opinion with fleshing out all the legions.


----------



## Count_the_Seven

I'm not going to argue the case again, though I will summarise below, but I feel my point is well made by me and many others in this thread. I still receive the Black Library e-newsletters, and from these:

- Friday 17th April: Corax: Soulforge – Hardback, eBook, MP3. No paperback, no mass market paperback.
- Friday 10th April: Garro: Knight Errant box set, including a new MP3. I have all of these already, the MP3 cannot be added to my collection unless I buy the new collection.
- Monday 30th March: The Imperial Truth, published on eBook. Again, I don’t have this for my book collection
- Friday 27th March: Raptor, MP3

Now, my comments are noted on each, where I think it's worthwhile. But these are all from the past three weeks or so. 

So, to recap on the problems:

- Volume: the number of publications has become too great to keep up with
- Format: there are now a ridiculous number of formats and limited edition, limited access, or format-specific releases
- Complexity: the number and variety of formats makes it difficult to stay in touch with the many storylines, plots and characters
- Story Progression: the story is not progressing, we are book 30(+?) and are nowhere near the conclusion. We now have the excellent "Talon of Horus" coming after and filling in some gaps. What would have been better was to have a shorter main story and then branches coming later - we all know the outcome, so get on with it!
- Money: it's hard to see past the argument that the HH is a cash cow

People who want to continue, can, this isn't about forcing or coercing others: this thread, well argued and reasoned by myself and others, is about why I - and other former HH readers - have called it a day.

CtS


----------



## Garviel loken.

Count_the_Seven said:


> I'm not going to argue the case again, though I will summarise below, but I feel my point is well made by me and many others in this thread. I still receive the Black Library e-newsletters, and from these:
> 
> - Friday 17th April: Corax: Soulforge – Hardback, eBook, MP3. No paperback, no mass market paperback.
> - Friday 10th April: Garro: Knight Errant box set, including a new MP3. I have all of these already, the MP3 cannot be added to my collection unless I buy the new collection.
> - Monday 30th March: The Imperial Truth, published on eBook. Again, I don’t have this for my book collection
> - Friday 27th March: Raptor, MP3
> 
> Now, my comments are noted on each, where I think it's worthwhile. But these are all from the past three weeks or so.
> 
> So, to recap on the problems:
> 
> - Volume: the number of publications has become too great to keep up with
> - Format: there are now a ridiculous number of formats and limited edition, limited access, or format-specific releases
> - Complexity: the number and variety of formats makes it difficult to stay in touch with the many storylines, plots and characters
> - Story Progression: the story is not progressing, we are book 30(+?) and are nowhere near the conclusion. We now have the excellent "Talon of Horus" coming after and filling in some gaps. What would have been better was to have a shorter main story and then branches coming later - we all know the outcome, so get on with it!
> - Money: it's hard to see past the argument that the HH is a cash cow
> 
> People who want to continue, can, this isn't about forcing or coercing others: this thread, well argued and reasoned by myself and others, is about why I - and other former HH readers - have called it a day.
> 
> CtS


"We all know the outcome so get on with it!" 

Throne....sometimes the journey is better then the destination


----------



## Count_the_Seven

That's your response?

Earlier posts noted how a core storyline could be developed in a relatively short series, with spin offs and side stories coming later. 

The HH model is a mirror-image of this. In Y1 we had three releases, in this last month ALONE there have been four, across a range of formats - some re-releases, others new, some both together!

As I said, I'm not going back over it, as readers can dip in and out of this thread freely without the same thing being said over and over again.

Throne... :wink:

CtS


----------



## Garviel loken.

Count_the_Seven said:


> That's your response?
> 
> Earlier posts noted how a core storyline could be developed in a relatively short series, with spin offs and side stories coming later.
> 
> The HH model is a mirror-image of this. In Y1 we had three releases, in this last month ALONE there have been four, across a range of formats - some re-releases, others new, some both together!
> 
> As I said, I'm not going back over it, as readers can dip in and out of this thread freely without the same thing being said over and over again.
> 
> Throne... :wink:
> 
> CtS


Spin offs? THis is the chance to flesh out the heresy once and for all. Sure the shorts and anthologies released are annoying, but they are not nessesary to getting the full experience. Right now we are getting to events that have never been covered before, and the amount of new lore coming off is great. 

According to you we should have - Horus rising, Battle of istvaan, Seige of terra. Or is that still to long of a series for you?


----------



## Angel of Blood

Garviel loken. said:


> According to you we should have - Horus rising, Battle of istvaan, Seige of terra. Or is that still to long of a series for you?


Not really what he said at all. There were major events to cover in the Heresy. 

Davin. The Council of Nikaea. The Burning of Prospero. Istvaan III. The Flight of the Eisenstein. Istvaan V. The ambush at Calth. Signus Prime. Tallarn. The war on Mars. The treachery unfolding on Caliban. The Battle of Phall. The war in the Webway/Beneath Terra. Malcador beginning to create the Grey Knights. The damnation of the Death Guard. The taking of the Sol System. The Siege of Terra. The aftermath.

That is a shit ton of material. Some of those could easily have been split into more than one novel to capture more of the event. Some were in fact, such as Prospero and both Istvaans.

We then got great new material, the story of the First Heretic and the start of it all in. Snatches of the Thramas Crusade, which could have been a full novel or at least more shorts. The depravation of the Emperors Children. A glimpse into the machinations of the XX Legion and how they entered the war, badly needing a real follow up to _Legion_. The campaign in Chondax briefly, followed by the decisions of the Khan and how the White Scars chose their side. More on the razing of the 500 worlds, showing what Guilliman was doing during the Heresy as well as Lorgar and Angron. 

We still need the fall of the Death Guard, why Magnus chose to throw his lot in with the traitors, the War beneath Terra, the events on Caliban better fleshed out. 

Instead we are getting countless mediocre novels of the Shattered Legions, Corax jumping around the galaxy in short stories and expensive novellas, stories of assassins that go nowhere and would have been better suited to shorts. Not to mention the haphazard way the Knights Errant story is going, split between shorts, bit parts on novels and audios combined.

It's not so much that we all want it to be at Terra now. We want focus on the important events, the defining events of the Heresy. So many of these shorts and novellas just don't go anywhere. It's great saying 'Yay more material for the Heresy background', but so many of them could just as easily be in 40k with the odd word swap here and there, and you'd never know. 

To me, they've lost focus. I would be fine if they were churning out endless novels of defining or linked events, but they aren't. It's all over the place, becoming increasingly stagnant and stringently avoiding the last few real events that people still want explored.


----------



## Count_the_Seven

You seem to enjoy creating argument, at the expense of fact.

My point is well made already, summarised above numerous times. You can agree or argue with yourself because I will - after this - no longer reply to your infantile posts. 

To be clear: I'm not saying people shouldn't enjoy the series, I am questioning the merits and motivations of the current series as it stands. Many others are too.

You listed a possible series of three stages: that's something you've created and not something I recognise or agree with.

To reinforce the point about diminishing interest and support for the series, the last Ltd Ed book is still available more than a month after release: http://www.blacklibrary.com/Home/tallarn-ironclad-limited-edition.html

And - to finish - there have been numerous releases in the series in the past month alone. This is disappointing as the main story should be developed and completed before side stories are padded. That way, readers can feel secure in knowing they are not missing key information by not buying everything. The key example, and determining factor for me, was the story of Mortarion which didn't make sense in The Vengeful Spirit if readers had not already read an eBook (which set key information in place and wasn't published until after The Vengeful Spirit).

I remain out, with disappointment. 

CtS


----------



## Garviel loken.

Angel of Blood said:


> Not really what he said at all. There were major events to cover in the Heresy.
> 
> Davin. The Council of Nikaea. The Burning of Prospero. Istvaan III. The Flight of the Eisenstein. Istvaan V. The ambush at Calth. Signus Prime. Tallarn. The war on Mars. The treachery unfolding on Caliban. The Battle of Phall. The war in the Webway/Beneath Terra. Malcador beginning to create the Grey Knights. The damnation of the Death Guard. The taking of the Sol System. The Siege of Terra. The aftermath.
> 
> That is a shit ton of material. Some of those could easily have been split into more than one novel to capture more of the event. Some were in fact, such as Prospero and both Istvaans.
> 
> We then got great new material, the story of the First Heretic and the start of it all in. Snatches of the Thramas Crusade, which could have been a full novel or at least more shorts. The depravation of the Emperors Children. A glimpse into the machinations of the XX Legion and how they entered the war, badly needing a real follow up to _Legion_. The campaign in Chondax briefly, followed by the decisions of the Khan and how the White Scars chose their side. More on the razing of the 500 worlds, showing what Guilliman was doing during the Heresy as well as Lorgar and Angron.
> 
> We still need the fall of the Death Guard, why Magnus chose to throw his lot in with the traitors, the War beneath Terra, the events on Caliban better fleshed out.
> 
> Instead we are getting countless mediocre novels of the Shattered Legions, Corax jumping around the galaxy in short stories and expensive novellas, stories of assassins that go nowhere and would have been better suited to shorts. Not to mention the haphazard way the Knights Errant story is going, split between shorts, bit parts on novels and audios combined.
> 
> It's not so much that we all want it to be at Terra now. We want focus on the important events, the defining events of the Heresy. So many of these shorts and novellas just don't go anywhere. It's great saying 'Yay more material for the Heresy background', but so many of them could just as easily be in 40k with the odd word swap here and there, and you'd never know.
> 
> To me, they've lost focus. I would be fine if they were churning out endless novels of defining or linked events, but they aren't. It's all over the place, becoming increasingly stagnant and stringently avoiding the last few real events that people still want explored.


Like i said im not a fan of the shorts and novellas either, but i dont think they are nessesary at all. As far as the novels are concerned, sure, the past year has been a bummer, with nothing really exciting coming out. Do i think some novels are not needed? Sure. But the authors and the BL team feel they are important, so i will give them the benefit of the doubt. 

I personally dont read the shorts and i have only one novella. They just dont seem nessesary., and i have never been confused reading a novel yet.


----------



## ckcrawford

To think that Corax and the survivors of Istvaan have had more screen time than the most important events in the Heresy... 

I just realized the Battle of the Phall was a fucking short story.


----------



## ckcrawford

LOL. I just came back to think about that. _The Battle of the Phall_ is a fricken short story... This pretty much proves how disorganized and pretty much careless Black Library is about producing the types of stories it produces. No offense on the story itself and writer which were pretty good. We have the Alpha Legion playing where's waldo and Corax destroying the traitor legions single handedly... and I might add, are making loops spiraling out of control. But, they can't concentrate on hitting the stories that really designed the direction of the Heresy. FUBAR


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## Garviel loken.

ckcrawford said:


> LOL. I just came back to think about that. _The Battle of the Phall_ is a fricken short story... This pretty much proves how disorganized and pretty much careless Black Library is about producing the types of stories it produces. No offense on the story itself and writer which were pretty good. We have the Alpha Legion playing where's waldo and Corax destroying the traitor legions single handedly... and I might add, are making loops spiraling out of control. But, they can't concentrate on hitting the stories that really designed the direction of the Heresy. FUBAR


Meh, no one needs the battle of the phall.....As long as we got a Calth novel!


----------



## Kalamoj

And they even raised the price of the books. 

http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/fear-to-tread-hardback.html


----------



## evanswolves

No need for that book to be £25 :/ there's longer books for £20!
£25 for a "normal length" HB and £30 for a longer (vengeful spirit, thousand sons) HB from now on then?


----------



## Stephen74

Hey all, 
I've been away from the forums for a while and that's largely been because I've also moved away from the HH series. A lot of the points that have been raised in this thread I (and others) have commented on before and it's no real surprise that it's hit so hard, it really has gotten out of hand. 

The main reason I've turned away isn't the quality (or lack of) of what has been turned out so much as how much is being turned out. It's extremely hard to keep up, not to mention phenomenally expensive to keep up, with how much is being released and in so many different formats, especially when not everything is released in all formats. 

What makes this even harder is how all of this is presented to us on the BL website, and the failure of how it's presented in GW stores (which I avoid like the plague anyway).

Trying to actually see what is available, and get your head around the context of each item and where it fits in to the larger overall HH story arc is almost a full time job. It isn't fun and I suspect only hardcore fans would willingly attempt it. Your casual fans, well, how many sales losses is that ?


The story arc is what is most important to me and I struggle to know where we are at with it. Forget the quality issue, I'm looking for a series that moves from A to B to C and is consistent. I don't care if the series runs from A to Z and then from AA to ZZ. I do not want a series that jumps from A to H to D to Z to F and so on. 

Black Library have failed completely and utterly to manage the story arc. I do not believe they have a clear idea of where they are going, I do not believe they have proper control over their authors in regarding what they produce and how consistent it is with what has been written before. 

Having a story arc that has a main story and several different sub stories to it needs to be managed. Other publishers have done it and done it well. My favourite example of this being TSR and the Dragonlance series which has a couple of hundred novels to it's credit. These were released as different series of books and whilst several books may come out in rapid succession on different sub stories, you always knew where you were because of they way they were released. For example,

The main story arc was a trilogy and was known as the chronicles. Sub story books would be released with their own headings, the Elven Nations Trilogy, the Heroes series, the Dragons Anthology and so on. Over all there are currently more than 40 different sub series and these series help manage the overall product. You never became lost as to what was going on and you knew very clearly from the sub series titles where they fitted in. 

BL could easily have done this with the HH series, even with all the different formats they want to use. In some cases they have done this. The Nathaniel Garro series for example is easily identifiable from the rest of the series. They could easily have broken this up in to trilogies and sextets and released them with a proper structure in place. 

I still have a real hunger for the HH story, but the way BL has managed releases makes me feel like i'm in a food fight not a restaurant. 

That, coupled with the horrific, wait let me say that again, *HORRIFIC*, prices they are charging now for books, and for me, audiobooks (which is what I tend to buy), means it just to much of a negative experience for me to try and purchase their products. It's unsurprising that I tend not to be involved in the model side of the game either any more for exactly the same reasons, the purchasing experience is so negative. I hate, wait let me say that again, *HATE*, going in to a GW store because you get jumped on by staff, going hammer and tongs, trying to get you to by anything and everything they can. If I dare venture in to one, I almost always leave with a strong desire to beat someone to death. 

Anyway, that's my rant done.


----------



## VulkansNodosaurus

I think BL's strategy of alienation can be stripped down to two decisions on their end: raised prices, and lack of communication.

Raised prices - BL stuff is (in the most extreme cases) first released in a form from $75 novels, through $40 novellas, to $2 quick reads that are only 1000 words long. That means that, for one cent, you get between 5 and 15 words. By comparison, a typical fantasy doorstopper hardback is around 300K words for $30, that is, about 100 words for each cent. And sure, after a year BL prints paperbacks, but _so does everyone else_.

Lack of communication - Even something as simple as the utterly terrible website. Not announcing future releases. And, also, the disorganization of the endless ranges that leads to stuff being released in various forms, in complicated fashion, in bite-sized chunks, without clear information on stuff like what % of an anthology is reprint material.

These combine to shrink the fanbase, destroy hype, etc.. Maybe BL is still making tons of money, but I'm pretty sure it's making it off of significantly fewer people, and those people are significantly less satisfied with the product (as evidenced by most discussion on forums like this).

Exhibit One: the Warhammer Fantasy End Times. First, look at all the excited proposals for a 40K End Times series. That's what the fandom seems to want, more than anything. Now, I didn't closely follow the discussion on the WHFB End Times (not being a WHFB fan), but of what I read, _none of it_ seemed positive. Maybe that's because it was a series that should have been as big as the HH, condensed down to five books, released within the span of a few months.

...That's my view of the current situation, at least. For my own part, it's been a while since I've finished a BL book. Maybe I'll get back into the world eventually; I do still have interest in the setting. But BL's business model is not exactly helping.


----------



## kwak76

I think Black library lost focus. The recent novels that have been publish is not too important to over all story for the heresy. Either the writers are having writer's block or as other have mentioned there is a lack of true direction. 

I remember I used to get excited looking up what new novel will come out or whenever I go to the book store I would check out the War hammer novels.However, lately just lost allot of interest. 

Honestly I have no idea what black library problem is. I mean in the beginning they were producing some decent stuff but lately it's not that good.


----------



## ckcrawford

VulkansNodosaurus said:


> I think BL's strategy of alienation can be stripped down to two decisions on their end: raised prices, and lack of communication.
> 
> Raised prices - BL stuff is (in the most extreme cases) first released in a form from $75 novels, through $40 novellas, to $2 quick reads that are only 1000 words long. That means that, for one cent, you get between 5 and 15 words. By comparison, a typical fantasy doorstopper hardback is around 300K words for $30, that is, about 100 words for each cent. And sure, after a year BL prints paperbacks, but _so does everyone else_.
> 
> Lack of communication - Even something as simple as the utterly terrible website. Not announcing future releases. And, also, the disorganization of the endless ranges that leads to stuff being released in various forms, in complicated fashion, in bite-sized chunks, without clear information on stuff like what % of an anthology is reprint material.
> 
> These combine to shrink the fanbase, destroy hype, etc.. Maybe BL is still making tons of money, but I'm pretty sure it's making it off of significantly fewer people, and those people are significantly less satisfied with the product (as evidenced by most discussion on forums like this).
> 
> Exhibit One: the Warhammer Fantasy End Times. First, look at all the excited proposals for a 40K End Times series. That's what the fandom seems to want, more than anything. Now, I didn't closely follow the discussion on the WHFB End Times (not being a WHFB fan), but of what I read, _none of it_ seemed positive. Maybe that's because it was a series that should have been as big as the HH, condensed down to five books, released within the span of a few months.
> 
> ...That's my view of the current situation, at least. For my own part, it's been a while since I've finished a BL book. Maybe I'll get back into the world eventually; I do still have interest in the setting. But BL's business model is not exactly helping.



I know what you mean. During the beginning of the Heresy change I thought it was a way of Black Library and GW trying to expand to more audience. Which... you can't really blame them for. After all, the amount of 90's and 80's veterans are dwindling. However, they made the hobby unsustainable to follow. To much loose crap going around, as well as the expense. Like whoa! Besides the literature, I also look at the stuff they are trying to do with games, and that nasty attempt at a movie and its like.... wtf... is going on. 

You want more fans or no? Too many one hit fans. They try the game and the game pushes it away. In this case its the literature. GW seriously has bad marketing skills.


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## Stephen74

VulkansNodosaurus said:


> I
> Exhibit One: the Warhammer Fantasy End Times. First, look at all the excited proposals for a 40K End Times series. That's what the fandom seems to want, more than anything. Now, I didn't closely follow the discussion on the WHFB End Times (not being a WHFB fan), but of what I read, _none of it_ seemed positive. Maybe that's because it was a series that should have been as big as the HH, condensed down to five books, released within the span of a few months.
> 
> .


 WHFB doesn't have the background that 40k does and that's why they could never do a HH type series of books. This end times stuff was born out of falling WHFB game sales, and again, that's a result of having no cohesive world structure. They are really piss poor with their fluff. It's always changing, its rarely linked, its cartoony and irrelevant and that's why its failed. But they cant see that. 

If you look at the board of directors, they are financial people. Accountants. Everyone on of them. And that's reflected in how they conduct things. Its all about the money and screw everything else. Low cost, low quality, high prices, mass volume.


----------



## bitsandkits

Stephen74 said:


> WHFB doesn't have the background that 40k does and that's why they could never do a HH type series of books. This end times stuff was born out of falling WHFB game sales, and again, that's a result of having no cohesive world structure. They are really piss poor with their fluff. It's always changing, its rarely linked, its cartoony and irrelevant and that's why its failed. But they cant see that.
> 
> If you look at the board of directors, they are financial people. Accountants. Everyone on of them. And that's reflected in how they conduct things. Its all about the money and screw everything else. Low cost, low quality, high prices, mass volume.


who else would you want steering a multimillion pound international business? Billy the trolley boy from the local Tesco? Plus you are taking the subject way off topic, this thread is about the HH series and why people have bowed out, has nothing to do end times or fantasy sales. 

back on topic, lack of firm direction of the main story arc seem to be sighted as the main reason people have dropped off the series, over and over again its the same thing, its Horus Heresy, people want to read about how we get from horus being no1 son to getting his ass handed to him by his dad, and everything in between, that allows for massive broad strokes of story, but fleshing out every single facet about every single faction from mutiple different angles with no end in site and very little progress after almost 10 years is just milking the fan base.


----------



## Mob

A lack of narrative focus is certainly one of, if not the main problem. It's the dilution of the overall product experience that's the general term I'd use, and that does include business factors.

I used to work in publishing and did a deal or two with BL back when Mark Gascoigne was around, but I haven't been in the business for years now. However, the HH series back when I was, was a new customer generator - it attracted readers. We're all aware of how popular it was / is. 
While BL steadily served that customer base for some years, it at some point decided to treat the HH series like a high inherent value niche 'collector' product and bombard the market with five times or more the amount of product, at far less quantifiable value where value for money is concerned _as well as_ add products that can literally initially only be owned if you went to one shop in the entire world one particular weekend (to take an extreme example), thus devaluing the brand, reader loyalty and driving a section of their reader base to casual status or just out.
Rather than take things back to a more welcoming level, they seemed intent on doubling down on hitting up the 'collector market' (ie the whales that can be milked for money of almost any amount as long as you slap enough of the brand signifiers on something) for as much as they can get.

And then they appeared to have internal scheduling problems that've shown up the weakness in not planning for consistent 'meaty' releases and instead jumping from quick buck to quick buck


----------



## Stephen74

bitsandkits said:


> who else would you want steering a multimillion pound international business? Billy the trolley boy from the local Tesco? Plus you are taking the subject way off topic, this thread is about the HH series and why people have bowed out, has nothing to do end times or fantasy sales.
> 
> .


How about someone with a background in marketing brands and serialisations. 
Take a look at how TSR marketed the Dragonlance novels to promote their Advanced Dungeons and Dragons game. 

And the way they have managed WHFB has everything to do with whats going on with HH. Go away, sit in a corner and don't come out again until you understand why.


----------



## ckcrawford

Mob said:


> A lack of narrative focus is certainly one of, if not the main problem. It's the dilution of the overall product experience that's the general term I'd use, and that does include business factors.
> 
> I used to work in publishing and did a deal or two with BL back when Mark Gascoigne was around, but I haven't been in the business for years now. However, the HH series back when I was, was a new customer generator - it attracted readers. We're all aware of how popular it was / is.
> While BL steadily served that customer base for some years, it at some point decided to treat the HH series like a high inherent value niche 'collector' product and bombard the market with five times or more the amount of product, at far less quantifiable value where value for money is concerned _as well as_ add products that can literally initially only be owned if you went to one shop in the entire world one particular weekend (to take an extreme example), thus devaluing the brand, reader loyalty and driving a section of their reader base to casual status or just out.
> Rather than take things back to a more welcoming level, they seemed intent on doubling down on hitting up the 'collector market' (ie the whales that can be milked for money of almost any amount as long as you slap enough of the brand signifiers on something) for as much as they can get.
> 
> And then they appeared to have internal scheduling problems that've shown up the weakness in not planning for consistent 'meaty' releases and instead jumping from quick buck to quick buck


It seems like thats partly it. The thing is that I also think they are trying to be to exclusive. I just don't see how they could make enough money to sustain themselves by being as exclusive as they are. 

You have to laugh at them when at one point their limited editions would make the site crash and now its taking months for some of those limited editions to sell out.


----------



## Count_the_Seven

ckcrawford said:


> You have to laugh at them when at one point their limited editions would make the site crash and now its taking months for some of those limited editions to sell out.


Word.

CtS


----------



## Paceyjg

Maybe they don't make enough money selling complete HH novels and its just not sustainable for them to do so?


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## csw

Paceyjg said:


> Maybe they don't make enough money selling complete HH novels and its just not sustainable for them to do so?


I strongly doubt that was originally the case. Near the end of their mass market paperback release cycles the HH novels were hitting the NY Times Bestsellers list. After their switch to "limited hardback" -> "trade paperback" -> "maybe we'll eventually get around to a mass market paperback if we aren't busy reprinting old books and jacking up the price" policy? Not so much.

Not sustainable for them to sell novels of a bestselling series? Somebody's doing it wrong.

Frankly, I think BL has horrendously botched the management of their product lines. The true unsustainable model is what they're doing now: releasing less and less content for higher and higher prices, while utterly failing to communicate with their customer base beyond "Surprise! Here's another super-limited edition for a 120 page novella that costs $40!"

Their first mistake was coming to view their product line as some range of high-end collectibles, as opposed to what they really do, which is pulp tie-in fiction. And let's be clear: _there's nothing wrong with pulpy fiction_, in the same way that there's nothing wrong with a cheap and cheerful diner that serves up heaping platefuls of comfort food. It's just a different sort of product compared to, say, a three star Michelin restaurant that's all about the latest trends in locally sourced ingredients and experimental techniques. However, if that comfort food diner tries to market and present itself as that exclusive restaurant, it's going to fail. Black Library is trying to do just that.

Their second mistake was in their response to that dissonance when sales dropped. Instead of looking at _why_ sales might be dropping, they chose to raise prices, and raise prices, and raise prices. Oh, and put out less product. _Zuh?!_ :scratchhead: Isn't that a classic recipe for a spiral of doom?
"Hey boss, people are buying less of our stuff."
"Great! Make it more expensive, that way we'll get the same amount of money even though we're selling less."
"Done! Uh, hey boss, people are buying even less of our stuff now."
"Great! Make it more expensive, again!"

At this point, the whole system is fethed. I just hope some of the authors who've put out solid work make it out okay.


----------



## bitsandkits

Stephen74 said:


> How about someone with a background in marketing brands and serialisations.
> Take a look at how TSR marketed the Dragonlance novels to promote their Advanced Dungeons and Dragons game.
> 
> And the way they have managed WHFB has everything to do with whats going on with HH. Go away, sit in a corner and don't come out again until you understand why.


is that the same TSR who were about to become insolvent and had to sell everything to wizards of the coast , marketing geniuses tsr clearly were not ? plus that was 30 years ago, the world has changed, but again nothing to do with the topic.


----------



## Mob

> Their second mistake was in their response to that dissonance when sales dropped. Instead of looking at _why_ sales might be dropping, they chose to raise prices, and raise prices, and raise prices. Oh, and put out less product. _Zuh?!_ :scratchhead: Isn't that a classic recipe for a spiral of doom?
> "Hey boss, people are buying less of our stuff."
> "Great! Make it more expensive, that way we'll get the same amount of money even though we're selling less."
> "Done! Uh, hey boss, people are buying even less of our stuff now."
> "Great! Make it more expensive, again!"
> 
> At this point, the whole system is fethed. I just hope some of the authors who've put out solid work make it out okay.


They've switched to the captive market strategy in the main. Like, academic textbooks and novels etc on reading lists are always expensive because there's a set amount of people who must have those products to study (or pretend they're going to). You know you're going to get around  amount of sales out of them. 
BL know they can make around  amount of sales from the collectors and the people they reckon have committed to the the HH series for (x) amount of years. So they're leaning heavily into it to capture that marked-up guaranteed income. They'll have spreadsheeted the shit out of this. It's why they've engendered the collector mindset, to convince a chunk of the readership to buy everything, or as good as.
Why they've narrowed their focus to largely just this group, I don't know. Easier money? Easier for them to strategise and budget for?

I mean, it's kind of their business model in general, but it seemed that BL had broken out of that gate and was charging off to be a serious competitor in terms of genre publishing. All the chat at the events for a couple years was about how they were breaking out and showing what their brand of tie-in fiction could do at the big boy's table. No longer.
Now it's all pulled back and inclusive and like we're all supposed to be in some prestigious club. 
And while it's just personal opinion, I think the quality of the work has dropped alongside that that business philosophy switch in focus.


----------



## Stephen74

bitsandkits said:


> is that the same TSR who were about to become insolvent and had to sell everything to wizards of the coast , marketing geniuses tsr clearly were not ? plus that was 30 years ago, the world has changed, but again nothing to do with the topic.


 That's the TSR whose books sold by the millions. Not a few thousand. Do you work for BL because you are seriously licking their butthole. 

And it has everything to do with the topic, not my problem you cant understand why.


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## Einherjar667

Stephen74 said:


> That's the TSR whose books sold by the millions. Not a few thousand. Do you work for BL because you are seriously licking their butthole.
> 
> And it has everything to do with the topic, not my problem you cant understand why.


That's a seriously shitty way to argue. Especially against a poster like Bits.


----------



## darkreever

Einherjar667 said:


> That's a seriously shitty way to argue. Especially against a poster like Bits.


Who its towards is irrelevant.



Stephen74 said:


> And it has everything to do with the topic, not my problem you cant understand why.


Right, you either need to check the attitude or get out of the thread. Your free to disagree with Bits and anyone else, but theres no reason to be a child about it.


----------



## bobss

Garviel loken. said:


> I disagree that any novel is a filler. This is the authors chance to truly flesh out the heresy. I have never understood the mindset of rushing a story we know the ending to. Nothing wrong in my opinion with fleshing out all the legions.


I have always been a strong opponent of the _Let's See Everything!_/_We *Have* To See Everything!_ argument. I think it ignores certain narrative features that each constitute to a good old fashioned 'good story.'

For example, you believe the plethora of novels in the Horus Heresy has provided Black Library's team of authors with the chance to ‘flesh out’ the titular event. Meanwhile, I believe this multitude of novels has bloated the series. Both 'flesh out' and 'bloated' refer to the same thing – expansion, addition etc. However, the connotations of these terms are much, much different. Obviously, 'flesh out' suggests encasing the bare bones or bare details of something in blood and flesh and richness and essentially more details. It is adding ‘body’ in effect, adding ‘improvement’ you could say. On the contrary, I use the word 'bloated' because it illustrates expansion beyond natural or safe limits, leading to degradation and a number of negative impacts on the series’ quality such as sluggishness.

'Sluggishness' is the key word here – it’s all about pacing. Pacing is a very important narrative feature that has been making and breaking stories for thousands of years. It influences how we judge a story, regardless of its medium. Pacing is not the smell of bread as it comes out of the oven, it's one of the fundamental ingredients of the dough. _Show *All* The Things!_ style storytelling effects pacing by increasing the distance between important events with clutter (i.e. non-priorities – which I will discuss later.)

I believe pacing is especially important in the Horus Heresy. To be clear before I begin, I fully understand that this galactic war lasted several years, but this is not necessarily an opportunity for clutter to exist or to defend the existence of clutter. Neither does knowing the outcome of the series justify protracting its publication with events of progressively lesser importance. This is because pacing and time are different. The Horus Heresy has always been portrayed as a handful of major events contributing to the Imperium of Man being left incredibly vulnerable to traitor conquest. Let’s not forget Horus’ trap gave him and his forces a colossal advantage in the war. It was a Purge, a Trap and a Spear Thrust in that order. Purge the Traitor Legions of problematic loyalists, trap and annihilate a massive portion of the enemy's fighting strength and finally march on Terra to kill the enemy's figurehead and conquer their homebase for an absolute victory. It's lightning-fast warfare on an epic galactic scale. Just look at _Horus Rising_, where the Luna Wolves' preference to go for the throat is referenced for goodness sake. It’s clear foreshadowing of events to come.

However, I do understand there were other important events occurring in and around this time such as the battles of Calth, Prospero, Signus Prime and the schism in the Imperium Secundus for example, but I argue these exist to highlight a galaxy-wide war and to enrich the Horus Heresy’s lore without drawing excessive attention, time and effort (books don’t write themselves) from Horus’ spearthrust to Terra. Subsequent events have been added to the Age of Darkness, such as Fulgrim’s and Angron’s ascensions to daemonhood, for example. As these two are major players during the Siege of Terra and given how these events were comfortably covered in a single novel each, I have no particular issue with them. It is when I see the fate of a primarch who is certainly not a major player in the post-Isstvan Horus Heresy climate such as Vulkan receiving a trilogy of full-length novels and countless supplementary material that I have a problem. To put it very, very bluntly and to save time, the worth and relevance of this storyline in comparison to the ‘main storyline’ (which I INSIST exists – and will discuss later as well) is quite simply not worth their existence or the space they take up in the series.

I have seen people argue against my reasoning by claiming Horus did not sail straight to Terra after the Dropsite Massacre, but needed to consolidate a number of worlds. I agree, however, we are not writing fictional history here, we are writing a story. It took time for Agamemnon to amass the armies of Greece, sail to Troy and lay siege to Troy, but that does not mean we should have the ‘hype’ (and I will discuss ‘hype’ in greater detail below) dried out by a reams and reams of stories about smaller players with less importance during the muster or voyage to Troy. Granted, the Horus Heresy has a much larger cast of characters than Homer’s compiled works or David Gemmell’s Troy Trilogy or whatever we’re comparing, but these things scale up nevertheless. Adding a ton of content with questionable importance degrades events already set up or events to come in my opinion.

Now, I love the Blood Angels and I fell in love with their hasty and noble defence of Terra alongside the Imperial Fists and White Scars. It's testosterone-boiling stuff packed full of sacrifice, glory and unwinnable odds. It’s the fuel of a true man based on the examples of true men like Leonidas at Thermopylae and the garrison of the Alamo. When I first read the Horus Heresy story at 11 I was shocked to discover only three of the Emperor's Legions would defend Earth against almost the entirety of the Warmaster's might. There was a genuine sense of haste and palpable desperation. There was haste to reach and protect Terra despite the futility of it all; there was haste to reach and crush Terra’s defenders before reinforcements could arrive; there was haste to reach and relieve Terra to secure the survival of the Imperium. This is epic, it’s the stuff of legends, just with city-sized battleships and walking cathedral-artillery instead of Greek heroes fighting in sandals.

However, Black Library's style of 'fleshing out' the Horus Heresy, to use your terms, has created a situation where several loyalist primarchs and their Legions have already reached Terra since the Dropsite Massacre, and then have left as they see fit. This completely and utterly obliterates the atmosphere of desperation I described above and surgically removes any feelings of despair we should have for Terra and its defenders with Horus thundering down. A massive Christian army didn't arrive at Constantinople shortly before it fell only to leave as the Ottoman host approached to fight pirates. It's ridiculous. Look, I'm talking about the Siege of Terra, the Decisive Battle, and the Showdown here. A story’s quality should never hinge entirely on its climax, but it is a highly vital stage nevertheless. Was it honestly worth it? Was adding a small titbit to Corax’s story really, honestly worth this? We are all our own judges here.

Similarly the sheer amount of events since the Dropsite Massacre has gradually eroded the suspense that Isstvan V original generated. For example, at the end of _The First Heretic_ we are given a snapshot of the Word Bearers marching on Calth. This created anticipation and hype, and we were rewarded right on time with two fantastic books in the form of _Know No Fear_ and _Betrayer_. However, novels like _Fulgrim_ and _The First Heretic_ also created hype for Horus' march on his father's domain – Terra, the place where it all began, and the place where it all ends. Terra has deep meaning in the 30k/40k universes and setting the right mood for the peril it is in is paramount. The hype has dried up because its waters have been diverted towards cultivating storylines of questionable importance, and no amount of rereading can rehydrate it. Perhaps Horus’ host breaching the Sol System may resurrect these feelings of anticipation, but I believe it will be too little, too late. There have been too many novels and too many events, many of questionable importance yet again, between these two pivotal events. The taste of destruction and pain caused by the Dropsite Massacre should be still be strong on our lips as Horus docks at Mars, supported by the mayhem documented throughout the galaxy. But unlike those events the Dropsite Massacre opened the door to Terra. It removed a massive chunk of the loyalist's fighting strength in one savage trap. There may have been many miles, many worlds and many foes between Horus and Terra at that point, but actual resistance that was both significant in size and close in proximity was thin. It is the same for Napoleon after the Battle of Borodino on the march to Moscow. The anticipation for myself and many others has completely dried up. Once again let me ask you, was this worth it? Was this worth the 'fleshing out' we received instead?

These two examples of 'fleshing out' have severely backfired and in my opinion they have irreversibly harmed the overall quality and atmosphere of the story. I chose these as they're examples I strongly identify with, but there are many others explained by better posters than I with better posts on this forum.

_Show Everything!_ is a plain bad method of storytelling in my opinion. As a narrative concept pacing is built on priorities. Essentially, to have constant and sustainable pacing a story must make a compromise between its content (i.e. stuff that happens) and the space it takes up (i.e. the time it takes for stuff to happen). Fundamentally speaking, events and characters of a greater importance should be optimised at the cost of other events and characters deemed less important (I’m not saying secondary characters should be planks of wood, but they are secondary characters for a reason where their importance to the story is concerned). Prioritising is a compromise for the greater good of the story. You can't show everything because it harms what you want to show most. It's perfectly possible to have a number of events playing out in the background and to be passed in reference, but to actually show them is exhaustive. For example, I wouldn't write a series on the Trojan War with Agamemnon massing his forces ready to sail to Troy with entire novels based around a slave having a love affair with his master's wife back in Greece now his master is absent, or of a slave rowing one of these ships who’s just made a pact with a God and ends up dying or having nothing to do with the Trojan War at all. Hypothetically speaking, having occasional updates on the Greek fleet’s progress across the Aegean does not justify this either. ‘It’s a long journey.’ Okay, so what?

Let me be clear, by ‘smaller storyline’ I don’t mean something outside of the Mournival, I mean something like the Dark Angels civil war which many fans agree could’ve been written about better in its own series without applying even more brakes to the HORUS HERESY series. Again, people can argue that the Dark Angels duology does contribute to the Horus Heresy, but I would once again argue the relationship between actual contribution and the time/space taken to deliver this. It is my belief that what I categorically class as a ‘smaller storyline’ has harmed and undermined the very core of the Horus Heresy series from a net perspective.

If you wanted to know more about the Emperor’s Legions this could've easily been covered in supplementary material, a Great Crusade series of novels, a 40k novel series pertaining to a specific Space Marine Chapter/Traitor Legion with plenty of retrospective content, or, to be perfectly honest, this could and to an extent has been handled within the Horus Heresy itself but without bloating the novel count. For example, _Betrayer_ gets to grips with the World Eaters Legion superbly well while advancing A) the Horus Heresy in several significant ways and B) advancing certain storylines from The First Heretic too. If Nick Kyme wants to pen a 30k trilogy on Vulkan and the Salamanders that's fantastic, but it ought to be done under a different domain name, because a Shattered Legion are not a priority and should not clutter the main storyline for reasons I have mentioned above (let alone have vastly more limelight than the Blood Angels, but that is a discussion for another day).

I have always firmly believed there IS a main storyline in the same way a Wars of the Roses series will focus on the pivotal kings, queens and factions of those events, with perhaps a few lower-born perspectives for contrast and creativity. What would be the point in writing entire books devoted to some peasant revolt that's planned out but never happens, or an assassination attempt that we retrospectively know will fail? Similarly, why write a novel about Julius Caesar’s time in Spain during Spartacus’ revolt? The likes of Spartacus, Crassus and Pompey are the main players here. Just because an important figure like Julius Caesar exists in the same timeframe doesn’t mean a cosy novel set in Roman Republican Spain would benefit the series at all. It wouldn’t. As I have stated and will continue to bleat, 'filler content' is highly harmful. Meanwhile, to suggest there isn't a main storyline in the Horus Heresy is to confirm my suspicions that the Horus Heresy series is no longer a series in a true sense, but a sandbox-like setting as 40k exists.

This is my opinion on your post and your post alone, Garviel loken. I have other problems with the Horus Heresy series, but they are not relevant to this post in particular, and more importantly they have been covered several times before in fantastic detail by other posters on this forum.

I understand this is a rather large post, but the Horus Heresy is a rather large and complex series as well, and frankly, what I perceive to be its problems are pretty complex as well. If anything, the fact members such as I and others in this thread are willing to type at such length about the Horus Heresy is testimony to our respect and (former) love for this series. I came here to write this because I called the Heresy a 'bad series' on Skype earlier to a friend. I didn't expect it, but it felt heart-breaking. I've known of the events of the Heresy since I first enjoyed 40k in the early 2000s, and read an incredible then-detailed summary of the war in 2005 when I was 11 that absolutely blew me away. Black Library's Horus Heresy series was a dream come true for myself and many others. I still love this IP, but sadly the Horus Heresy series is no longer by cup of tea.

I even wrestled with myself as to whether I should post this as I'm aware several Black Library authors visit this forum, and I feel my bleak outlook on the evolution of the series isn’t the most confidence-inspiring thing for them to read after their hard efforts. In the end I decided to write this because even if just one person could connect to my opinion, but couldn't put their feelings into words like I could, it would be worth it.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Excellent post, @bobss. Too much there to quote specifically, but I do agree that the series has bloated beyond anything manageable. It's moving outward without moving onward at any appreciable rate, and has led to a degree of stagnation. If it has become a sand box, I think the cat has been shitting in it lately.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Truly excellent post there. I don't have a single point to argue against and agree with it all. The comparisons you drew were truly excellent and eloquent. I wish I had the motivation to make a lengthy a reply as yours. And there, that in itself is my argument in a sense. There was a time with this series where I would have wanted to write an essay on it to defend it, to show how amazing it was. But it's just falled by the wayside now. 

This is a series where initially, I couldn't wait to buy the next novel. I was pre-ordering them, and then hoping and hoping that the pre-orders would get sent out quite a bit early. I would come onto this site and see someone had posted that they had received theirs that day and then practically sit in front of the letter box waiting and hoping for mine to arrive. If it didn't, I would be so, horribly disappointed and then get ancy and anxious every morning until it did arrive, jealous of those who were reading it, paranoid about seeing a spoiler on here about it, but at the same time, desperate to jump into the novel specific thread and discuss it or see what others were saying about it. Whenever it did arrive,I would drop almost anything else I had going on and read it. Work breaks, reading. When I wake up a little earlier than usual, read it. When I got home, read it. I would finish those novels within a small number of days and even then because I was deliberately trying to slow myself down.

Compare that to now. Now, I look at these novels and think "hmmm wonder if I'll bother with that when it comes out......probably not". The new expensive first release formats don't help, I mean I really liked them when they first came out and I was in love with the series, with dreams of a completed collection on my bookshelf in that handsome hardback editions. But now, I can't even begin to justify that kind of money on yet another Shattered Legions story, but we'll get onto them in a moment. I just don't look to any novels with anticipation or excitement anymore. ADB making a return to the series had got me hopeful, but I must admit that even then, it's not with the same excitement. This is ADB excitement alone, I'd be excited about any release from him. Before any novels by him or Abnett were double doses of awesome. Not only was I getting a new Heresy novel, but it was being written by one of the two big hitters! (I hadn't even heard of Wraight before his Heresy and the Fang novels I confess). Where as now, again, I'm purely hyped because of ADB, that it's a Heresy novel is nice, but not as impactful as before.

So yes. The Shattered Legions. I can't even begin to fathom how the creative team thought it would be a good idea to devote so much time and effort into the three Legions that were all but _annihilated_ at Istvaan. I mean, really, wheres the impact of the Dropsite Massacre now? I remember reading about it waaaaaay before the Heresy series began and being blown away that the Loyalists suffered such a huge loss. Before in the initial William King short, the assumption was that they were just scattered too far across the galaxy, that Horus had struck so fast, that they just simply had no time to get back to Terra, with the exception of the Blood Angels, who just made it, and the Space Wolves and Dark Angels, who were just able to be close enough to effect the end game. Then I read about the events at Istvaan V and was again, blown away. It was huge, pivotal, game changing, no, game breaking, a true show of Horus tactical and strategic genius. He had not only announced his intentions, but he had massacred three loyalist Legions in doing so. Yet.....here we are. Almost 30 novels since reading about that catastrophic event back in _Fulgrim_, and somehow, there's more novels, shorts, audios and novellas devoted to these Legions than any other. The Dropsite Massacre was meant to take them out of the game, but they are somehow very much in the war, still putting up more of a fight than any of the intact Legions. 



bobss said:


> Now, I love the Blood Angels and I fell in love with their hasty and noble defence of Terra alongside the Imperial Fists and White Scars. It's testosterone-boiling stuff packed full of sacrifice, glory and unwinnable odds. It’s the fuel of a true man based on the examples of true men like Leonidas at Thermopylae and the garrison of the Alamo. When I first read the Horus Heresy story at 11 I was shocked to discover only three of the Emperor's Legions would defend Earth against almost the entirety of the Warmaster's might. There was a genuine sense of haste and palpable desperation. There was haste to reach and protect Terra despite the futility of it all; there was haste to reach and crush Terra’s defenders before reinforcements could arrive; there was haste to reach and relieve Terra to secure the survival of the Imperium. This is epic, it’s the stuff of legends, just with city-sized battleships and walking cathedral-artillery instead of Greek heroes fighting in sandals.
> 
> However, Black Library's style of 'fleshing out' the Horus Heresy, to use your terms, has created a situation where several loyalist primarchs and their Legions have already reached Terra since the Dropsite Massacre, and then have left as they see fit. This completely and utterly obliterates the atmosphere of desperation I described above and surgically removes any feelings of despair we should have for Terra and its defenders with Horus thundering down. A massive Christian army didn't arrive at Constantinople shortly before it fell only to leave as the Ottoman host approached to fight pirates. It's ridiculous. Look, I'm talking about the Siege of Terra, the Decisive Battle, and the Showdown here. A story’s quality should never hinge entirely on its climax, but it is a highly vital stage nevertheless. Was it honestly worth it? Was adding a small titbit to Corax’s story really, honestly worth this? We are all our own judges here.


Which brings me to these excellent points. I, like yourself, fell in love with the story of the Heresy from that one short story about it. And again, like yourself, with the Blood Angels in particular, to the point where they then became the first army I collected. The Siege sounded so epic, so grand, desperate, forlorn and hopeless. The defeat didn't seem likely, it seemed inevitable, a forgone conclusion. There were heroic moments and triumphs. Sanguinis defeating Ka'bandha(who was then unnamed) is still one of my favourite moments of the entire saga, and one I will still look forward to reading despite everything. Or the Khan rallying what was left of the armoured divisions to retake the Lions Gate Spaceport. Other Loyalists then trying to retake the Eternity Wall Spaceport but being thwarted. The Sky Fortress that tried to return the Khan to the Emperors side for the final moments but was brought down, yet still managing to hurt the traitors terribly in it's final moments. These were all epic and heroic. Yet ultimately futile, a band aid to a arterial wound. Last stand moments, death and glory, but certain defeat. Something that I just don't believe the series can capture anymore, if nothing else but due to your next point I've quoted.

All that desperation that the above set, the race of the Blood Angels to be there, the full flight attempt of the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves to be there in time. The Space Wolves.....Leman Russ. The VIth Legion. They, were rushing to breaking the Siege. Imagine my fucking surprise then, to discover that Leman Russ and his Legion had already returned to Terra before the event and then left again! When I read he was there in _Vengeful Spirit_, there was none of my usual excitement at seeing the Wolf King, it was sheer and utter disbelief. I actually sat there and reread the passage several times, not quite sure that I could actually be reading it correctly. Corax returning and leaving was one thing, his Legion was barely existent as it was and guerilla tactics always was there thing. But Russ! Leman Russ!! Of all the Primarchs. It's completely ruined my grand visions of he and the Lion racing to Terra. Indulge me for a moment...

I always dreamt of seeing the Heresy made into reality on screen. A fantasy of course. It's just too big, to grand, now too bloated to ever be made into a film or TV show, nor is Warhammer popular enough for it. But I always imagine how it would be like. In particular, I've always had quite a vivid imagining of Angron declaring his terms to the Loyalists, before Sanguinius and the Blood Angels appear on the wall and have the two brother stare each other down as Angron give the command to attack, all set to 'The Battle' from the soundtrack of Narnia: The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe. I still think of it now whenever that theme comes on my playlist. 

Another one I had, set to no particular musical theme. Was the closing moments of the Siege, before Horus played his Gambit. I imagined the traitors running rampant through the Palace, Greater Daemons perched atop of battlements, triumphant and gloating. Loyalist Imperial Guardsmen and Astartes being cut down side by side in the streets as the traitors ran riot. Move to the Eternity Gate slowly closing as Sanguinus threw the corpse of Ka'bandha through them, the traitors on the other side howling out in frustration. Cut to the Emperor, with Dorn and the Angel by his side, along with their remaining men and the Custodians, awaiting the inevitable. Then to Horus, on the bridge of his flagship watching the Siege with satisfaction, knowing that his victory is at hand. Then there would be what would amount to whisperings almost like the ones from Lost, demons frantically warning Horus, whose eyes would grow wide with terrible realisation and surprise. We'd then be taken to an empty patch of space, viewing the Sol System from a distance, then the camera would slowly pan around and reveal a colossal and powerful fleet, the iconography of the Space Wolves and Dark Angels clear across their flanks. A fleet of such significant size that the Siege would be ended. We'd then see the Lion and the Wolf on the bridge together, the two with such a fierce rivalry side by side, together grimly heading into the maelstrom of the Siege. 


So yeah, sorry to digress that much, probably lost a few of you on the way. Still love to imagine it. But there's a problem with it now. Now I can't help but see Russ a little agitated and nervous, no doubt thinking "FUUUUUUCK, why the fuck did I leave????" or the Lion thinking "Oh piss it, why the fuck did I spend so much time dicking about with Guilliman". 

On that note I'm going to end this post. I've so many more gripes. But that's just the point. They're endless now. Just like this series apparently.


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## Brother Lucian

To offer my two cents. The Age of Darkness, the 7 year period from Horus throwing down the gauntlet at Istvaan till the Siege of Terra. It is my feeling that its this which have taken so many people by suprise, judging from this thread.

GW is simply filling out the blanks of what happened in this period.


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## bobss

Fantastic post, AOB. I've never gotten into the limited editions myself, but I had the same silly excitement for each novel release. Avoiding the A Thousand Sons spoiler thread was a Herculean challenge. It's good to see such devout fans of the series wrestle with their honest feelings.



Brother Lucian said:


> To offer my two cents. The Age of Darkness, the 7 year period from Horus throwing down the gauntlet at Istvaan till the Siege of Terra. It is my feeling that its this which have taken so many people by suprise, judging from this thread.
> 
> GW is simply filling out the blanks of what happened in this period.


I've made my opinion on the Age of Darkness clear in my post, but honestly mate getting to grips with it would be colossal, literally a dissertation! To briefly recap what I posted last night, I have no fundamental issue with the Age of Darkness, it's a perfectly logical thing to happen as the road to Terra is blasted open. It's how this period has been executed, with some excellent events that are perfectly justified in existing and many that are not. Again I would remind you of my holy formula: does an event's purpose justify the time it has taken up and the distraction it has served from the main storyline? Angron's ascension? Yes. Vulkan running around the galaxy? No (in my opinion). Do you read the Wheel of Time? The biggest criticism levelled at the series is how it spends entire books focusing on characters and storylines of questionable importance. To provide another history example: I was reading about the Fall of Rome in 410 AD the other day with a cup of tea. Just one of those detailed Wikipedia articles that paints a holistic picture of the event. Stuff like the Huns pushing the Goths into Western Europe, or the Goths battling other Gothic factions in Roman lands, or the schism between each half of the Roman Empire was all highly interesting, but received nothing more than an empirical explanation before moving on to, you know, the Fall of Rome. This article knew it's priorities, and a story functions the same. Imagine in Hamlet if we had a whole act dedicated to exploring the political climate in Norway and the decisions that Fortinbras made to invade Denmark. All fascinating stuff but totally removed from the actual purpose of the play, never mind it's passive effect of bloating and dragging the play at a high cost to its quality.

It seems fans of the Horus Heresy have split into those who wanted a tightly written, epic saga of 15-20 books and those who are much happier for >50 volumes for all the juicy fluff intricacies. My post last night awkwardly gets around how you can't have both.


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## Count_the_Seven

@bobss this was my thread originally (I am astonished that it has reached such levels of interest), but your posts of the past 24 hours eloquently sets out the point I originally sought to make.

CtS


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## MontytheMighty

bobss said:


> Fantastic post, AOB. I've never gotten into the limited editions myself, but I had the same silly excitement for each novel release. Avoiding the A Thousand Sons spoiler thread was a Herculean challenge. It's good to see such devout fans of the series wrestle with their honest feelings.
> 
> 
> 
> I've made my opinion on the Age of Darkness clear in my post, but honestly mate getting to grips with it would be colossal, literally a dissertation! To briefly recap what I posted last night, I have no fundamental issue with the Age of Darkness, it's a perfectly logical thing to happen as the road to Terra is blasted open. It's how this period has been executed, with some excellent events that are perfectly justified in existing and many that are not. Again I would remind you of my holy formula: does an event's purpose justify the time it has taken up and the distraction it has served from the main storyline? Angron's ascension? Yes. Vulkan running around the galaxy? No (in my opinion). Do you read the Wheel of Time? The biggest criticism levelled at the series is how it spends entire books focusing on characters and storylines of questionable importance. To provide another history example: I was reading about the Fall of Rome in 410 AD the other day with a cup of tea. Just one of those detailed Wikipedia articles that paints a holistic picture of the event. Stuff like the Huns pushing the Goths into Western Europe, or the Goths battling other Gothic factions in Roman lands, or the schism between each half of the Roman Empire was all highly interesting, but received nothing more than an empirical explanation before moving on to, you know, the Fall of Rome. This article knew it's priorities, and a story functions the same. Imagine in Hamlet if we had a whole act dedicated to exploring the political climate in Norway and the decisions that Fortinbras made to invade Denmark. All fascinating stuff but totally removed from the actual purpose of the play, never mind it's passive effect of bloating and dragging the play at a high cost to its quality.
> 
> It seems fans of the Horus Heresy have split into those who wanted a tightly written, epic saga of 15-20 books and those who are much happier for >50 volumes for all the juicy fluff intricacies. My post last night awkwardly gets around how you can't have both.


There is a problem...often times, we are not getting juicy, thought-provoking fluff intricacies. I would be OK with that. Instead, we're getting poorly written or at best mediocre filler...usually inferior to the old fluff and detrimental to the gravitas of the story


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## Tawa

bobss said:


> <snip>


An excellent post there bobss, that deserves a cookie!


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## Captain_Loken

I have a question.

I feel the same as many of you guys, but there are some individual novels that I do want to read such as _Thousand Sons, Prospero Burns _and _Vengeful Spirit _just as an example, I'm sure there are many more. My question is, will I be completely lost if I decide to skip a bunch and just read these?

Now, I know I asked a similar question before and people told me that there are references to previous books, which I'm used to after reading the Ahriman series and the Word Bearers series. 

Also, I would love to know the story of Istvaan V, but I can't remember which books they were. I know someone told me before, but I forgot where I asked.

As to all of your points, I just want to say that I have to agree. Though, I don't spend the money like most of you on all the novels and LE's and even re releases, I still have to invest my time in reading the novels. I am a slow reader so it takes me a couple days to finish a book.

I was just curious as to what your guy's opinion is on this. If this isn't the right place to ask, then let me know and ill move it.


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## Malus Darkblade

Everyone seems to want the Heresy to end. Am I the only one who wants it to last as long as possible? Of course ideally I would want it to last as long as the quality doesn't suffer.


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## Haskanael

Malus Darkblade said:


> Everyone seems to want the Heresy to end. Am I the only one who wants it to last as long as possible? Of course ideally I would want it to last as long as the quality doesn't suffer.


I am enjoying the way it is developing thus far but it does seem that often we take 2 steps back for every step forward in the story progression. 
I would love for a branch of the story to take some step forwards to Terra.


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## Malus Darkblade

Once we head into Terra I feel like we're closing
the book on everything prior. Jumping back in the past seems unlikely for an author.


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## Mellow_

Seriously, the whole HH series could have been 7 to 12 novels. By Novels I mean, Game of Thrones style ones. Big ... lots of content, each being top sellers. That would be just for the main story arc. By all means release side Novels, perhaps 1 for each Legion so that fans don't have to suffer by not seeing their favourite Legion.

30+ books and being swamped with Shattered Legions and Calth at every turn is dull and boring.

I also believe BL need to pull their head out of the sand. It's not the 90's anymore, we're in the digital age. These books need to be primarily sold on eBook format, no printing costs also saves money but more importantly it means that the consumer doesn't have to end up with a book shelf of a ton of novels of all different sizes. It is completely ridiculous.

On a personal note I do believe they should ditch the table top and go digital with a decent pay as you go MMO game that's actually developed, but that's just personal preference. Again, only purely because it's a digital age these days, toy soldiers doesn't tend to impress anyone, but saying you've read a "Game of Thrones" best seller and people are interested. It should be the same with the HH ones.


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## Khorne's Fist

Malus Darkblade said:


> Jumping back in the past seems unlikely for an author.


Not in this series. They seem to prefer that than going forward. Nine years on from Galaxy in Flames and we're still getting Istvaan stories. Nine years and 36 novels, novellas and anthologies, plus countless shorts and audios, and the timeline has only moved on about three years. Considering the Heresy spans seven years, does that mean it'll take the same again and then some to get it all finished? 

I'm pretty certain they didn't set out to have the series take close to 20 years and 70-odd titles to finish, so here's hoping there's a massive shake up in the series some time soon.


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## Tawa

Mellow_ said:


> Seriously, the whole HH series could have been 7 to 12 novels. By Novels I mean, Game of Thrones style ones. Big ... lots of content, each being top sellers. That would be just for the main story arc. By all means release side Novels, perhaps 1 for each Legion so that fans don't have to suffer by not seeing their favourite Legion.


This.

Why oh why did they not do this?


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## KillaCustodian

*Thoughts*

First Time Poster, long time reader...

First: I have read all the available HH novels, Shorts, and listened to the Audio shorts, aside from the LE event releases which are hard to obtain with me living in Canada. I agree with most, if not all of the points made regarding the length of the series overall.

Second: I feel as though BL has utilized the HH series as a "coming of age" for the 40K franchise. The Vulkan escapades in particular have more import in 40K than in the known 30K mythos. Bbobs eloquently expresses so many excellent points regarding the "overfilling" of the cup of knowledge as it relates to the core of the series. Truthfully, the series could have ended after Galaxy in Flames, as we see the initial heresy occur, the events that spawned such a massive upheaval in this far future Imperium of Man. The 40k stories are of course largely based upon the "developing" lore we are privy to as a result of the sheer obesity of the HH to this point. 

Dark Angels



The Dark Angels use of the warp machine in the latest series ending With The Unforgiven, explaining how caliban is ripped apart is hinted at by Gulliman talking to the Lion about his strange additions to his flagship in UE, as well as the way the DA seem to be able to translate an entire fleet on top of the NL's during the thramas campaign.



Salamandars



The salamanders search for the artifacts of fire those items created by vulkan, which he wanted to destroy, but kept 9 of, in addition to the philosophy of the current chapter, and the trials they endured to come back from the brink. While adding little to the overall HH story arc, it feels as though these HH novels were only provided to supply canon for 40k. That may be an oversimplification, but it resonates with me



Dark Angels/GK/BL



The Damnation of Pythos is a direct prequel to Pandorax, which set the stage for again some more interesting stuff going on with Abbadon, now in possession of a Grey Knight and gene seed, as well as a further snippet of information pointing to a certain DA psyker becoming a Grey Knight Grand Master. 



Ultramarines



Know No Fear, Mark of Calth, and the two new Calth books on the way serve as a staging point not for the involvement of the Ultramarines in the wider Heresy, but rather as a historical founding of the Codex Astartes. While I love Thiel and the stories he has been involved in, Shorts, Audio, and novel treatment. That is the lasting and most prolific portion of the Ultramarines in HH to this point for me. 



Night Lords



Understanding the history of the NL, the events thramas crusade only serves to connect the reader to ADB's Night Lords Trilogy. Once again the main focus of these characters aside from the ass kicking Curze is Sevetar, another individual who at present is a non-factor when the walls of the palace come down. Curze able to hold off the Lion and Gulliman, two of the most prized primarchs for martial skill behind fulgrim and the Khan is hard to handle.



Black Templars



The Crimson Fist explains why Sig and his ilk dress in black, are on a perpetual crusade (I would say penitent) and their dislike of psykers in 40k



As you can see, so much of the HH "fluff" or "filler" which to our current knowledge impacts the overall story minimally seems to be geared solely on laying a foundation for 40k novels, which makes sense seeing as 40k was ripe with novels prior to the release of Horus Rising. 

Anyway my two cents. It is becoming far to lengthy, but like many of you, I am still reading because I am invested. I want to see what happens, not all of it, but the significant events that surround the final climax when we get to Terra. That being said, there will likely be 6 or 9 novels about the siege proper, each from a different perspective, as was pointed out hilariously in the Istavaan Thread looking at BL marketing techniques and methodology. 

I just shelled out for the new Ragnar Novel(la) and eagarly await its arrival. This is one of the longest series I have invested both time and money into, likely since R.A.Salavtore's examination of the drow way back when. While I am becoming wary of the time and money spent of these novels, I still enjoy the writing of almost all the BL HH team, lately the novels have just seemed to lack significance and import during the story arc of the HH.

Death to the False Emperor!!




Truthfully I see Horus not dying by the Emperor, but rather to an anathame wielding Ol the Pious as he stands over the body of his mangled father.


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## MontytheMighty

Guilliman holds off Angron and Lorgar for a fair bit in Betrayer. Curze also ends up on the floor bleeding to death in the second duel between him and the Lion.


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## Kharn The Complainer

Captain_Loken said:


> Also, I would love to know the story of Istvaan V, but I can't remember which books they were. I know someone told me before, but I forgot where I asked.


Get Out! I would assume that you were trolling had I not read other posts written by you. You seem quite 'new' with regards to HH Black Library and the HH game in general. I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, so don't be offended. 

There are roughly over 9000 novels and short stories discussing the events of Istvaan V, so I really don't know how you've missed out on Istvaan information. OK, I may be exaggerating a little...

I'm sure other posters can correct me if I am wrong or have missed out anything, but if you want to read about Istvaan V you should read these books.



_Raven's Flight_ by Gav Thorpe
_Fulgrim_ by Graham McNeill
_The First Heretic_ by Aaron Dembski-Bowden
_Aurelian_ by Aaron Demski-Bowden
_The Outcast Dead_ by Graham McNeill
_Deliverance Lost_ by Gav Thorpe
Any novel or short story featuring the Iron Hands (who whine incessantly about Istvaan V)
The Face of Treachery (if I remember correctly)
Fulgrim probably gives the most complete depiction with the other novels and short stories adding extra chunks of information.


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## darkreever

Kharn The Complainer said:


> *GET OUT!*


Yeah..this isn't even aimed at me and I want to smack you in the head for it.



Kharn The Complainer said:


> _The Outcast Dead_ by Graham McNeill


This has only a passing mention of Istvaan V, it hardly counts.




Kharn The Complainer said:


> _Deliverance Lost_ by Gav Thorpe


Only the barest of mentions in the beginning really.




Kharn The Complainer said:


> Fulgrim probably gives the most complete depiction with the other novels and short stories adding extra chunks of information.


The First Heretic as well I would imagine


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## Kharn The Complainer

darkreever said:


> Yeah..this isn't even aimed at me and I want to smack you in the head for it.


Do I really need to put [/joke] at the end of every joke I make? I thought the emboldened text and exclamation mark at the end was enough.

Anyway, I am trying to help the guy out by giving him all the books I can think of which include mentions of Istvaan. Indeead, the Outcast Dead has only a small mention, but n my opinion it is certainly worth a read due to the powerful way it's presented. I have to admit that I actually got a little choaked up at the description of how the reports were coming in and the affect they had on those who were recieving them.


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## Tawa

Kharn The Complainer said:


> Do I really need to put [/joke] at the end of every joke I make?


Use Orange text.


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## Duke_Leto

KillaCustodian said:


> First Time Poster, long time reader...
> 
> First: I have read all the available HH novels, Shorts, and listened to the Audio shorts, aside from the LE event releases which are hard to obtain with me living in Canada. I agree with most, if not all of the points made regarding the length of the series overall.
> 
> Second: I feel as though BL has utilized the HH series as a "coming of age" for the 40K franchise. The Vulkan escapades in particular have more import in 40K than in the known 30K mythos. Bbobs eloquently expresses so many excellent points regarding the "overfilling" of the cup of knowledge as it relates to the core of the series. Truthfully, the series could have ended after Galaxy in Flames, as we see the initial heresy occur, the events that spawned such a massive upheaval in this far future Imperium of Man. The 40k stories are of course largely based upon the "developing" lore we are privy to as a result of the sheer obesity of the HH to this point.
> 
> Dark Angels
> 
> 
> 
> The Dark Angels use of the warp machine in the latest series ending With The Unforgiven, explaining how caliban is ripped apart is hinted at by Gulliman talking to the Lion about his strange additions to his flagship in UE, as well as the way the DA seem to be able to translate an entire fleet on top of the NL's during the thramas campaign.
> 
> 
> 
> Salamandars
> 
> 
> 
> The salamanders search for the artifacts of fire those items created by vulkan, which he wanted to destroy, but kept 9 of, in addition to the philosophy of the current chapter, and the trials they endured to come back from the brink. While adding little to the overall HH story arc, it feels as though these HH novels were only provided to supply canon for 40k. That may be an oversimplification, but it resonates with me
> 
> 
> 
> Dark Angels/GK/BL
> 
> 
> 
> The Damnation of Pythos is a direct prequel to Pandorax, which set the stage for again some more interesting stuff going on with Abbadon, now in possession of a Grey Knight and gene seed, as well as a further snippet of information pointing to a certain DA psyker becoming a Grey Knight Grand Master.
> 
> 
> 
> Ultramarines
> 
> 
> 
> Know No Fear, Mark of Calth, and the two new Calth books on the way serve as a staging point not for the involvement of the Ultramarines in the wider Heresy, but rather as a historical founding of the Codex Astartes. While I love Thiel and the stories he has been involved in, Shorts, Audio, and novel treatment. That is the lasting and most prolific portion of the Ultramarines in HH to this point for me.
> 
> 
> 
> Night Lords
> 
> 
> 
> Understanding the history of the NL, the events thramas crusade only serves to connect the reader to ADB's Night Lords Trilogy. Once again the main focus of these characters aside from the ass kicking Curze is Sevetar, another individual who at present is a non-factor when the walls of the palace come down. Curze able to hold off the Lion and Gulliman, two of the most prized primarchs for martial skill behind fulgrim and the Khan is hard to handle.
> 
> 
> 
> Black Templars
> 
> 
> 
> The Crimson Fist explains why Sig and his ilk dress in black, are on a perpetual crusade (I would say penitent) and their dislike of psykers in 40k
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see, so much of the HH "fluff" or "filler" which to our current knowledge impacts the overall story minimally seems to be geared solely on laying a foundation for 40k novels, which makes sense seeing as 40k was ripe with novels prior to the release of Horus Rising.
> 
> Anyway my two cents. It is becoming far to lengthy, but like many of you, I am still reading because I am invested. I want to see what happens, not all of it, but the significant events that surround the final climax when we get to Terra. That being said, there will likely be 6 or 9 novels about the siege proper, each from a different perspective, as was pointed out hilariously in the Istavaan Thread looking at BL marketing techniques and methodology.
> 
> I just shelled out for the new Ragnar Novel(la) and eagarly await its arrival. This is one of the longest series I have invested both time and money into, likely since R.A.Salavtore's examination of the drow way back when. While I am becoming wary of the time and money spent of these novels, I still enjoy the writing of almost all the BL HH team, lately the novels have just seemed to lack significance and import during the story arc of the HH.
> 
> Death to the False Emperor!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truthfully I see Horus not dying by the Emperor, but rather to an anathame wielding Ol the Pious as he stands over the body of his mangled father.


I hear what you are saying and respect your POV but really cannot agree. Of course the HH is setting up events for 40k. It is ALL about the lore. HH has been the single most important background event for The Imperium since about edition 2 of the game. 

What I will say is that I have mixed feelings about the level to which the mystery of the background is being revealed. On the one hand I love reading about it but on the other a 10000 year old legend (after all for 40k citizens that is what the HH is, a legend) should have an air of mystery and misunderstanding about it.


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## Captain_Loken

Duke_Leto said:


> I hear what you are saying and respect your POV but really cannot agree. Of course the HH is setting up events for 40k. It is ALL about the lore. HH has been the single most important background event for The Imperium since about edition 2 of the game.
> 
> What I will say is that I have mixed feelings about the level to which the mystery of the background is being revealed. On the one hand I love reading about it but on the other a 10000 year old legend (after all for 40k citizens that is what the HH is, a legend) should have an air of mystery and misunderstanding about it.



What is annoying is the end of the HH has already been revealed and they're supposedly only half way through the series. Literally read any Chaos legion book and you'll find out what happens. 

My point being is that I don't see why they need all the smoke and mirrors when everyone knows the ending. 

Also, I want to point out that it really depends on your definition of 'citizen'. If you mean anyone living in the 40k universe, well then that legend is truth to every single Chaos Space Marine. Many of which fought in it personally.


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## Brother Lucian

Captain_Loken said:


> What is annoying is the end of the HH has already been revealed and they're supposedly only half way through the series. Literally read any Chaos legion book and you'll find out what happens.
> 
> My point being is that I don't see why they need all the smoke and mirrors when everyone knows the ending.
> 
> Also, I want to point out that it really depends on your definition of 'citizen'. If you mean anyone living in the 40k universe, well then that legend is truth to every single Chaos Space Marine. Many of which fought in it personally.


I think the smoke and mirrors is precisely what they are doing to enlarge the narrative and filling it with unexpected stuff that came as a total suprise. Which to pad and flesh out an otherwise fairly quickly resolved plot. The Unremembered Empire and the Perpetuals standing as the two most noticeable things for me.


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## Kharn The Complainer

Captain_Loken said:


> My point being is that I don't see why they need all the smoke and mirrors when everyone knows the ending.


As I mentioned in my rant thread, they could still spend a dozen or more novels just talking about the siege of Terra.

By the way, if you want to know a serious HH spoiler...


Horus did it


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## Brother Emund

Kharn The Complainer said:


> By the way, if you want to know a serious HH spoiler...




The Emperor is NOT Horus's father... Darth Vader is


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## ckcrawford

Mellow_ said:


> Seriously, the whole HH series could have been 7 to 12 novels. By Novels I mean, Game of Thrones style ones. Big ... lots of content, each being top sellers. That would be just for the main story arc. By all means release side Novels, perhaps 1 for each Legion so that fans don't have to suffer by not seeing their favourite Legion.
> 
> 30+ books and being swamped with Shattered Legions and Calth at every turn is dull and boring.
> 
> I also believe BL need to pull their head out of the sand. It's not the 90's anymore, we're in the digital age. These books need to be primarily sold on eBook format, no printing costs also saves money but more importantly it means that the consumer doesn't have to end up with a book shelf of a ton of novels of all different sizes. It is completely ridiculous.
> 
> On a personal note I do believe they should ditch the table top and go digital with a decent pay as you go MMO game that's actually developed, but that's just personal preference. Again, only purely because it's a digital age these days, toy soldiers doesn't tend to impress anyone, but saying you've read a "Game of Thrones" best seller and people are interested. It should be the same with the HH ones.


Thats what I originally thought as well. I personally think some of the substantial authors of the series have been fatigued by all the crap thats been made and have turned their attentions to better projects. 

It is quite vexing that they didn't start off the series with more legion novels. I really don't think anyone deny's how much of a big hit those novels are. _Legion_ in my opinion really showed that any legion had the potential to really make a big hit in the series. 

As far as the game is concerned... I'm not sure how GW looks at its games and decides their course of actions. They have alienated potential new players and even veteran players with extreme game changes and price increases. Not going to lie though, some nice models, but I feel every time I tried to get back in the game, in one way or the other I get shaken off. Looking forward to that Total War game though. GW has essentially made the decision that there are a few players that spend so much money on the game no matter what, that they are better off making new models and rules so that those players are the lifeline of their store. I'm just not sure how they make enough though. I see why they've closed LOTS of stores, but I'm sure there's still a lot of expenses. 

The death of the older games and rules I believe really came from the stores inability to create new and interesting campaigns and stories.


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## Phoebus

ckcrawford said:


> It is quite vexing ...


I couldn't help myself.


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## ckcrawford

Phoebus said:


> I couldn't help myself.


It vexes me... I am terribly vexed... 

Name the movie.


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## Kharn The Complainer

ckcrawford said:


> It vexes me... I am terribly vexed...
> 
> Name the movie.


Is your question supposed to vex? The name of the movie is in the linked trailer.
You have vexed me with your vexing question. You vexer of people. I shall crush your bones!


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