# Dark Eldar and Farseers.



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

I just read Butcher's nails today, and while it was a good read it threw up a question for me. 



The story is a prologue to Betrayer, with Angron and Lorgar getting ready to wage their shadow war. Angron's ship is attacked by an Eldar fleet. It appears later that the Eldar are actually DE, but are following the instructions of a farseer to kill Angron "before he can become the son of the Blood God." Would DE follow the guidance of a craft world farseer, and if so, how would contact be made between them?


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

If i remember correctly, while dark eldar and normal elder arent really in each others good books, they do quite often set aside differences to ensure common goals and eliminate common threats, or sometimes have been known to save craftworlds just because it was entertaining.

The farseer evidently had some clout with dark eldar too


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Also, it was shortly after the fall. They hadnt developed explosive animosity at that time.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Also, the Farseers are past veterans of manipulation. And he might have known the kabal leader when the eldar were one people. The eldar aren't as fragmented as some of the fluff indicates, all the time.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> I just read Butcher's nails today, and while it was a good read it threw up a question for me.
> 
> 
> 
> The story is a prologue to Betrayer, with Angron and Lorgar getting ready to wage their shadow war. Angron's ship is attacked by an Eldar fleet. It appears later that the Eldar are actually DE, but are following the instructions of a farseer to kill Angron "before he can become the son of the Blood God." Would DE follow the guidance of a craft world farseer, and if so, how would contact be made between them?


Given that the events of _Butcher's Nails_ occurred so soon (around 200 years) after the Fall it's fully possible that the Dark Eldar (even though they were not known as the "Dark Eldar" then) may have maintained their own psykers or farseers at that point. Or perhaps they had one as a slave or captive. Other than that, as others have said, communication (even cooperation) between Eldar factions is not unheard of.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Hrm, didnt the path system only come into being AFTER the fall?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> Hrm, didnt the path system only come into being AFTER the fall?


As far as I am aware, yes.

But psykers and seers performing similar roles to farseers would have inevitably been present prior to the implementation of the path system.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Indeed, but there are many mysteries of the Webway that humans do not understand. It would not surprise me to find that DE and Eldar have meet behind the curtains and signed secrets pacts/allainces/deals.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

The eldar path books have a few examples of such.



Its revealed that one of the striking scorpions is a druchii convert in path of the warrior.
Path of the Renegade shows a craftworld eldar getting lured to the side of the druchii.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

But would the DE give enough of a shit about events that may not affect them to take on a legion?


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

Khorne's Fist said:


> But would the DE give enough of a shit about events that may not affect them to take on a legion?


If a Farseer has enough sway with them then yes. If they dont and it was that damn important - The Harlequins will make them... No one messes with the Harlies, not even the Dark Eldar.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

If the death of Angron would somehow tip the balance of the conflict against the Emperor (not sure how) and ensure Horus won, I could see it. If the Cabal was truthful and the Emperor was slain and Chaos eventually extinguished because of it then that would be very beneficial to the Dark Eldar who may no long have had to deal with She-Who-Thirsts.

I've not read or listened to the Butcher's Nails (I thought it was an audio drama ... could be wrong). The Dark Eldar may not necessarily serve Slaanesh so much as they grudgingly work around it, but Khorne may also be a natural enemy to them because of this relationship. Preventing Angron from becoming the Son of the Blood God just to "hurt" Khorne may have been reason enough for them.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

BlackGuard said:


> If the death of Angron would somehow tip the balance of the conflict against the Emperor (not sure how) and ensure Horus won, I could see it. If the Cabal was truthful and the Emperor was slain and Chaos eventually extinguished because of it then that would be very beneficial to the Dark Eldar who may no long have had to deal with She-Who-Thirsts.


If the death of Angron saved a single eldar life, they'd do it. Because the Eldar are more important than any human.
As a side note, the Cabal is not the Eldar. There are Eldar involved in the Cabal, but the Eldar as a race could very well have different goals to the Cabal. 



Thats why Eldrad is talking directly to Grammaticus and offering an alternative route to take. Which also may not be beneficial to humanity either. It IS Eldrad we're talking about...





Brother Lucian said:


> Hrm, didnt the path system only come into being AFTER the fall?


But there's nothing to say there weren't Farseers before that and that the path came afterwards to add more discipline to a necessary job. Although before, they could've just been doing it for fun, lolz and trolling. 



emporershand89 said:


> Indeed, but there are many mysteries of the Webway that humans do not understand. It would not surprise me to find that DE and Eldar have meet behind the curtains and signed secrets pacts/allainces/deals.


They do - I can't remember which book it was, but there is one where the CE and the DE make a deal and the CE sell out their representatives to the DE as a 'goodwill gesture'. Then the DE put the CE reps in an arena...

(Might be one of the deathwatch books?)


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

BlackGuard said:


> then that would be very beneficial to the Dark Eldar who may no long have had to deal with She-Who-Thirsts.
> 
> The Dark Eldar may not necessarily serve Slaanesh so much as they grudgingly work around it,


Sorry if I'm misreading your post, but it seems that you're suggesting that the DE either work with/around/for Slaanesh? My understanding is that every Eldar, regardless of their post-Fall status, are literally in mortal terror of Slaanesh, who desires only to find any way to eat their souls. Am I missing something fundamental?


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Sorry if I'm misreading your post, but it seems that you're suggesting that the DE either work with/around/for Slaanesh? My understanding is that every Eldar, regardless of their post-Fall status, are literally in mortal terror of Slaanesh, who desires only to find any way to eat their souls. Am I missing something fundamental?


 You did not misread it, I may have a flaw in my understanding of Dark Eldar. I have been under the assumption that they somehow send souls to Slaanesh to fend him/her/it off of them OR that they somehow consume souls to prolong their lives to prevent their eventual deaths and thus consumption by Slaanesh.

Perhaps their line of thinking, if my latter belief is true, that by killing Angron and offering his soul to Slaanesh it may somehow fend it off a little longer. Of coarse, I lack any real knowledge of Xenos races in 40k.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

The Eldar are all in mortal terror of slaanesh - the craftworld eldar who wear spirit stones to prevent their souls dissipating into the warp upon death - they are a highly psychic race and they (unlike humans) retain consciousness after death. At which point, Slaanesh noms them down like a dry twix.
Slaanesh is already eating the Dark Eldars souls slowly - they try to keep her at bay 
A)Living in the webway beyond her easy reach
B)Consuming souls themselves - they're like a boiling kettle. You can put more water in, but it will begin to evaporate quite quickly again. And if it runs dry, the kettle breaks.

If the eldar though that there was a chance to kill Angron then they'd take it - He will become the right hand man of khorne and will be responsible for the death of billions, human and eldar alike.

The part that threw the eldar in that story was Lorgar. They didn't foresee him being there and ultimately, that meant the gambit was futile.

Effigy22's avatar at the top put me in mind of a relevent quote - in dog soldiers where they find the special ops commander half torn apart shouting 'There was only supposed to be one!'


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

BlackGuard said:


> You did not misread it, I may have a flaw in my understanding of Dark Eldar. I have been under the assumption that they somehow send souls to Slaanesh to fend him/her/it off of them OR that they somehow consume souls to prolong their lives to prevent their eventual deaths and thus consumption by Slaanesh.
> 
> Perhaps their line of thinking, if my latter belief is true, that by killing Angron and offering his soul to Slaanesh it may somehow fend it off a little longer. Of coarse, I lack any real knowledge of Xenos races in 40k.


The quote which sums this up from the codex is as follows:



Codex: Dark Eldar said:


> The Eldar hate and fear Slaanesh above all... she waits hungrily upon the other side of the veil to claim each and every one of them. Whereas the Eldar of the Craftworlds learned to deny Slaanesh's hold upon them using mystical spirit stones and infinity circuits, the Eldar of the webway became exceptionally good at ensuring that lesser beings suffer in their stead. Provided they steeped themselves in the most evil and decadent acts, the Eldar of the webway found that the curse of Slaanesh could be abated.
> 
> The agony of others nourished their withered souls and kept them vital and strong, filling their frames with unnatural energies. Assuming they could feed regularly enough, the Eldar of the webway became physically immune to the passage of time. So it was that the Dark Eldar were born, a race of sadistic murderers who feed upon the anguish of others in order to prevent the slow death of their immortal souls. Ten thousand years later, in the 41st Millennium, Slaanesh's thirst pulls at them still. There truly is no escape. The Dark Eldar race has unwittingly exchanged a horrible but mercifully quick death for an eternity of hunger.


Of course, the bitter irony of the Dark Kin is that they would never actually admit they act as they do because of the devastating hunger that devours their souls, they insist they do so because that is their right and desire.


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

The ambush part in Butcher's Nails really made me facepalm. If the Eldar had waited just a little longer, the Word Bearers and World Eaters would probably have fought (Angron was just about to give the order to fire). The Eldar ships could have waited until the fireworks died down, then mopped upp whoever survived the fight.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

It may have been necessary to do it that way. Farseers often do things that seem bizzare to outsiders, and cataclysmically wrong, for their own plans and plots. So it is said.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Of course, the bitter irony of the Dark Kin is that they would never actually admit they act as they do because of the devastating hunger that devours their souls, they insist they do so because that is their right and desire.


Come on man, they have been doing this for untold millenia; I'm sure they simply are so imbued with murder and deciet that it is just part of the culture. When the Eldar first started debauchery, they grew use to it. When it became acceptable in Eldar society, it then became rampant. After thousands of years of being rampant Slaanesh comes hunting for hungry souls. So what do the Dark Kin do.....they contiue their debauchery to such a level Slaanesh wants nothing to do with them in their Webway hideout. Thus it became culture, culture became norm, and you have the Dark Eldar.

Really quite simply really. 

After reading up on some of the dusty Eldar history I find two things that should be mentioned here. As far as their ancient History the Farseer position seems to be not be mentioned, leading me to beleive that it was only recently created when the Exodite and Craftworld Eldar split off from their parent race who later became the Dark Eldar. The Farseers, as far as I can see, have never dealth with the Dark Eldar as freinds or allies. This is not to say it has not happened but that no Lexicanum or Fluff lore I have read can sup[port this idea.

Thus Farseers are exaclty what they are, Eldar on the Witch Path intending to use their psychic powers to guide their very fragile race. 

As far as the Dark Eldar are concerned they seem to have precious few psychic's among them. I am still reading much of the DE fluff but, compared to their Eldar cousin's which are whoring them, they are few and far between. Additionally many of the DE tend to be women, not men. All the talk of Wych and female Haemonculi polluter the De history books. Therefore, since some of the strongest Farseer's I've ever heard of are female, it can only lead me to conclude two things. First that Dark Eldar have moved beyond the psychic realm IOT avoid Slaanesh and keep their depravity at an all-time high; as their ancestors did before them. Secondly, that the few psychic's within their society tend to become warriors who's martial prowness if more of the focus than their latent psyker abilties.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

emporershand89 said:


> Come on man, they have been doing this for untold millenia; I'm sure they simply are so imbued with murder and deciet that it is just part of the culture. When the Eldar first started debauchery, they grew use to it. When it became acceptable in Eldar society, it then became rampant.


Of course it is their culture, I never said otherwise. What I was saying is based on this quote:

"The scions of the Dark City would never admit that the unceasing hunger at their core is what drives them to such heights of cruelty. Instead they maintain that they act only upon their own desires. Some have even managed to convince themselves of this. In truth, unless our cousins in the Webway feed upon a constant diet of extreme emotion they will slowly wither away, leaving naught but a soulless husk. We of the Craftworlds deny all such urges, and in doing so become less than ourselves. Perhaps it is those that we left to perish who are the lucky ones." - Spiritseer Iyanna Arienal, Meditations.



emporershand89 said:


> After thousands of years of being rampant Slaanesh comes hunting for hungry souls. So what do the Dark Kin do.....they contiue their debauchery to such a level Slaanesh wants nothing to do with them in their Webway hideout. Thus it became culture, culture became norm, and you have the Dark Eldar. Really quite simply really.


But, of course, that is false. Slaanesh is still very much interested in the Dark Kin and consumes their souls just as she does the souls of the other Eldar factions. 



emporershand89 said:


> After reading up on some of the dusty Eldar history I find two things that should be mentioned here. As far as their ancient History the Farseer position seems to be not be mentioned, leading me to beleive that it was only recently created when the Exodite and Craftworld Eldar split off from their parent race who later became the Dark Eldar.


Yes, that seems to be the case. Though psykers and seers of similar position and power would have inevitably existed before the path-system was introduced.



emporershand89 said:


> The Farseers, as far as I can see, have never dealth with the Dark Eldar as freinds or allies. This is not to say it has not happened but that no Lexicanum or Fluff lore I have read can sup[port this idea.


There are numerous examples of cooperation and alliances between the Dark Kin and other Eldar factions. Most recently, a Dark Eldar Kabal saved Iyanden from destruction because they found the Craftworld's "angst-ridden forays into the world of necromancy extremely entertaining".



emporershand89 said:


> As far as the Dark Eldar are concerned they seem to have precious few psychic's among them. I am still reading much of the DE fluff but, compared to their Eldar cousin's which are whoring them, they are few and far between. Additionally many of the DE tend to be women, not men. All the talk of Wych and female Haemonculi polluter the De history books. Therefore, since some of the strongest Farseer's I've ever heard of are female, it can only lead me to conclude two things. First that Dark Eldar have moved beyond the psychic realm IOT avoid Slaanesh and keep their depravity at an all-time high; as their ancestors did before them. Secondly, that the few psychic's within their society tend to become warriors who's martial prowness if more of the focus than their latent psyker abilties.


The Dark Eldar Codex explicitly states that: "...the innate psychic abilities of their forebears have atrophied. To channel the energies of Chaos within Commorragh would be to invite disaster, for such pyrotechnics could draw the gaze of She Who Thirsts, the nemesis of the Eldar race. As such the use of psychic powers is one of the few things forbidden within the Dark City."

So, the Dark Eldar's psychic abilities have wasted away to nothing.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Atrophied and wasted away to nothing aren't exactly synonymous. They are a whisper of what they could be, but the potential still exists, and many are likely still trained in psychic skills, as they are survivors of the Fall itself, and likely trained in it before the creation of She who Thirsts.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

As far I remember, the druchii willingly let their psychic skills atrophy to lessen the risk of daemons noticing them. Infact as I recall from Path of the Renegade, that psychic power even was outlawed in main commoragh, forcing any psykers to live on the outskirt slums, trying to hide.

In the book they go to the slum area to find such a staggeringly rare druchii psyker.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> a Dark Eldar Kabal saved Iyanden from destruction because they found the Craftworld's "angst-ridden forays into the world of necromancy extremely entertaining".


Interesting, so did they keep them prisoner and totured them. It's hard for me to beleive the Dark Kin had a sudden change in heart and saved their cousins; even if in humor.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> ough psykers and seers of similar position and power would have inevitably existed before the path-system was introduced.


True, and Lore doesn't really cover the Pre-Fall Eldar. If anything Black Library should give up the Heresy series and start writing about the War between the Eldar and the Necronians; covering the rise of the C'Tan and the Eldar Gods as well. Might give us better insight on this issue.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> What I was saying is based on this quote


Indeed, your point is proven


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Creon said:


> Atrophied and wasted away to nothing aren't exactly synonymous.


True.



Creon said:


> as they are survivors of the Fall itself, and likely trained in it before the creation of She who Thirsts.


I doubt _that_ many direct survivors of the Fall are around in M41. Still quite a lot no doubt, but they are likely in the minority. 



emporershand89 said:


> Interesting, so did they keep them prisoner and totured them. It's hard for me to beleive the Dark Kin had a sudden change in heart and saved their cousins; even if in humor.


No they didn't turn upon the Craftworlders at all, they saved them and then met and explained themselves to Iyanden's Seer Council. 

As I said before, there are numerous examples within the lore of cooperation and alliances between the Dark Kin and Craftworld Eldar. Their methods may differ wildly and their opinions of each other are generally quite negative, but they are of the same species and share the same basic goal of avoiding She Who Thirsts, after all.

The Harlequins also provide quite a strong link between the different factions.


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I doubt _that_ many direct survivors of the Fall are around in M41. Still quite a lot no doubt, but they are likely in the minority. .


Asdrubal Vect is actually a survivor of the fall. I cannot for the life of me remember who wrote a short story about him but it turned out he himself was a slave, about to be sacraficed. He was just about to have his heart cut out when slaanesh was born - thus accidently saving his life.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

The subject of the rumor itself is Vect himself so take it under non-reliable teller. It might or might not have happened in the matter Vect has described. Just keep an open mind is my recommendation as with most fluff.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

effigy22 said:


> Asdrubal Vect is actually a survivor of the fall. I cannot for the life of me remember who wrote a short story about him but it turned out he himself was a slave, about to be sacraficed. He was just about to have his heart cut out when slaanesh was born - thus accidently saving his life.


You're referring to the short story _The Torturer's Tale_ by Gav Thorpe (legal link). 

Vect briefly retold the events of the Fall to a human slave, but his claims can hardly be verified. Regardless, I acknowledged that there would inevitably be some Eldar still around who directly survived the Fall.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> You're referring to the short story _The Torturer's Tale_ by Gav Thorpe (legal link).
> 
> Vect briefly retold the events of the Fall to a human slave, but his claims can hardly be verified. Regardless, I acknowledged that there would inevitably be some Eldar still around who directly survived the Fall.


Vect could well be a survivor of the Fall but that story was written when the DE were still in their 2nd Edition Codex, when Vect was around 10,000 years old and that lore said that Vect was responsible for the creation of the Dark Eldar in the first place by rallying survivors of the Fall and bringing them into the Webway. Now his lore says he came to power in M35, and it doesn't say he was a Fall survivor anymore, and rather than create the Dark Eldar he just created the Kabal system while coining the term "Dark Eldar". His new lore doesn't say he was a Fall survivor but it doesn't deny it either.

Considering how the Dark Eldar keep themselves alive though the resurrection-technology it's possible some Fall survivors may still live, but since their hunger would be 10,000 years old, so they'd probably need to feed on thousands per day just to live.


LotN


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> Considering how the Dark Eldar keep themselves alive though the resurrection-technology it's possible some Fall survivors may still live, but since their hunger would be 10,000 years old, so they'd probably need to feed on thousands per day just to live.


There is a suggestion in the new codex that the reason for the Dark Kin's increased volume of realspace raids and incursions is because Vect requires more and more slaves to simply endure as his "long-abused body has passed beyond rejuvenation". I think, given the fact that the Fall was now 10,000 years ago, any surviving Dark Eldar would require a huge volume of slaves daily just to survive. 

Inevitably this would mean that, by now, there could only be a scant few left.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Sorry if I'm misreading your post, but it seems that you're suggesting that the DE either work with/around/for Slaanesh? My understanding is that every Eldar, regardless of their post-Fall status, are literally in mortal terror of Slaanesh, who desires only to find any way to eat their souls. Am I missing something fundamental?





BlackGuard said:


> You did not misread it, I may have a flaw in my understanding of Dark Eldar. I have been under the assumption that they somehow send souls to Slaanesh to fend him/her/it off of them OR that they somehow consume souls to prolong their lives to prevent their eventual deaths and thus consumption by Slaanesh.
> 
> Perhaps their line of thinking, if my latter belief is true, that by killing Angron and offering his soul to Slaanesh it may somehow fend it off a little longer. Of coarse, I lack any real knowledge of Xenos races in 40k.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The quote which sums this up from the codex is as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, the bitter irony of the Dark Kin is that they would never actually admit they act as they do because of the devastating hunger that devours their souls, they insist they do so because that is their right and desire.


Just wanted to point out, in the third Soul Drinker book, we see Dark Eldar actually working for Slaanesh in hopes in becoming a Deamon prince for her instead of her meal.
It backfires ofcourse, but he was a Slaanesh worshiper and Eldar :grin:


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