# Bolt Guns make no sense



## Shugotenshi47 (Mar 2, 2008)

From what I read on the bolt gun is that you fire the round it goes the barrel and leaves the gun, shortly after the gyrorocket ignites sending it flying into the target. Now why is it that bolt guns are described as having high recoil when the rocket ignites after leaving the weapon, when it should have recoil about the same or less then a modern medium caliber bullet?


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

It's still using an explosive propulsion to get it to leave the chamber. Thus, recoil.


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## Shugotenshi47 (Mar 2, 2008)

But what I am saying is that the powered needed to leave the weapon should not be enough to create arm ripping recoil when used at least 2 handed. Because you don't need a full powder charge to leave the barrel because the rocket carries the bolt round to the target. Less powder means less recoil. I understand if the bolt gun has like m4 level recoil, a .75 caliber is a huge round but you shouldn't need arm ripping recoil to propel it out the weapon a few feet


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## Unforgiven302 (Oct 20, 2008)

A rocket, (basically a bolter round is a rocket) needs time to accelerate unlike a regular bullet. A bullet fired from a gun is at it's fastest in the barrel and slows down from then on. A rocket is just the oposite, slowest at initial start and fastest right at engine cutoff. So, to make a bolter round be lethal at close range, more acurate or faster firing it would need to be "helped" by using a conventional explosive charge to get it up to speed faster. Make any sense?

There was a real rocket handgun manufactured back some time ago called the gyrojet. It sucked.  But it is "basically" what could be described as how a bolter works... sort of... maybe.






(in the comments on youtube for this video, quite a few people say, "... space marine bolter..." Thought that was funny.)


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## LegendX (Jun 16, 2008)

hahaha Unforgiven!

At the end of the video "Its a real hunk of junk"

LX


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Remember that a bolter round is huge; fist sized projectiles are gonna take quite a charge to get them moving fast enough to be useful...
As for the 2 handed thing its just because your marines are inept- proper marines like Space Wolve's Grey Hunters (and DH Grey Knights) have true grit so can fire bolters (or storm bolters for the Knights) one handed


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

LegendX said:


> At the end of the video "Its a real hunk of junk"


describes a boltgun quite nicely if it ever existed 

and remember, in the 41st millennium EVERYTHING has recoil strong enough to snap a guardsmen in half, until used by said guardsmen when it suddenly has none.....................GW, producing consistent fluff since.......oh who am I kidding
:alcoholic:


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Well, if the bolter has recoil (which the gyrojet has none), then is must have a small charge at that fires to propel the bolt out of the barrel (and perhaps ignites the rocket). Remember that bolters are suppose to be able of at least burst fire (and stormbolters can do fully auto). So I would say that a bolter is a combination of the gyrojet and a conventional firearm.

As for firepower, lets assume this propellent/gyrojet combo is correct. That would mean its speed would be based on a basic gun plus the jet in the bolt. So, it would probably have a decent thrust to it at close range. Secondly, a bolt has an explosive warhead attached to it. It punches in and then explodes. If it doesn't penetrate the target, it still explodes. Well, that is the impression I get.

Also, isn't a bolter only a .75 caliber weapon? That is about a 19mm bolt. Not the size of a man's fist.

As for ripping a man's arm off, I thought that was old Rogue Trader fluff. GW is constantly re-writing how things work to accommodate their codices. Such as "modifying technology is considered a crime" and "Arkhan Land found the blueprints for the Land Raider, a unique tank design unlike any other that has ever been found", suddenly changing to "but the Black Templar did change their Land Raiders, but they are the only ones with them", then changing to "Oh, but every other chapter can have Crusader Land Raiders too, plus this nifty flamethrower land raider that we decided to pull out of our ass". Oh, but Chaos can't change their tanks. Even though they are suppose to be all about breaking the rules and constantly changing. God damned GW.... erk!

:Slain by GW Ninja-Lawyer:


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## Mouse (Jan 28, 2009)

It wouldn't be just enough energy to propel the bolt into the air a few feet, it would fire the round as normal, then the boost of speed would be just to make it faster, and more accurate.


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## NecronCowboy (Jan 8, 2009)

It's a game...


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

NecronCowboy said:


> It's a game...



How can you say such trash :angry:


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## dirty-dog- (May 14, 2008)

Its Just like the rail guns on dawn of war, there would be no such thing as recaoil, or any sound produced from the projectile when it is in, leaving or out of the barrel.

but for some reason they think that it has tremendoes recoil, but it is powered by magntism, there is no recoil, and yet they say there is.

i think that this is the same kind of case, GW are crap at tieing all fluff together.


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## Godstud (Jan 22, 2009)

GW is great at tying fluff together.
There just happens to be 2 types of boltguns is all 
One has wicked recoil and the other doesn't.


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Godstud said:


> GW is great at tying fluff together.
> There just happens to be 2 types of boltguns is all
> One has wicked recoil and the other doesn't.


Well, technically a 'bolt gun' is a type of weapon. Just like an 'autogun' is a type of weapon. So, the types are without number and therefore anything is possible. That said, I guess the lore inconsistancies could be explained away. Still, I would rather ignore the parts I don't like and just explain everything away.



NecronCowboy said:


> It's a game...


Of course it’s a game, you ninny. That is why we are here rambling about it in the FLUFF section of the forum. It’s called a pointless conversation about what-ifs. We are taking a trip to imagination land! Either keep up or get off the freaking boat.


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## NecronCowboy (Jan 8, 2009)

Hey I prefer to help paddle the boat, I'm just saying go easy on GW they do a good job at creating fluff despite there being a few holes in their story.

The bolter without recoil probally comes in handy when firing in zero gravity...


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## dirty-dog- (May 14, 2008)

lol, i could imagine zero grav with recoil. roll to hit, on a 1-3 you go flying 6 inches straight back.

i bas supervisor......

bolt guns are boltguns. theyre the gun of mederocricy. the are the most average gun that gw produces, stat wise, and they are budgetly good.

although i do want to see orks with pulse rifles, they would come in handy.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

NecronCowboy said:


> Hey I prefer to help paddle the boat, I'm just saying go easy on GW they do a good job at creating fluff despite there being a few holes in their story.


a few holes, thats hilarious, the titanic only had a few holes, look what happened to her


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

> Oh, but Chaos can't change their tanks. Even though they are suppose to be all about breaking the rules and constantly changing. God damned GW


here here! i agree! why can't chaos have the crazy vehicles that have amind of their own and go apeshit on everybody and their mother.....oh wait we do our drednoughts lol still it would be cool to see a chaos landraider with a huge pus gun or pulse cannon or some shit.


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## Primarch Lord CAG (Dec 5, 2007)

rail guns are hella loud the projectile it shoots is going like 100k an hour that makes some noise :alcoholic:


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

With a Railgun you'd really only hear the sonic boom as the projectile itself reached such incredible velocity, and you wouldn't really hear that either because you'd be dead before the sonic boom got to you. :biggrin:


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## Primarch Lord CAG (Dec 5, 2007)

not if your the one firing it:alcoholic:


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Still depending on the range there's a good chance the slug from the Railgun will hit it's target before even the firer hears his own shot, just remember the Railgun's velocity is greater than any modern projectile or craft in use. We're talking the sorts of speeds where unless you're at fair distance from the weapon you're unlikely to even see the projectile that kills you unless it's absolutely huge (i.e the Rail Cannons used on Tau Space Craft).

Any way enough off topic talk :biggrin:


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## AzraelJahannam (Jun 28, 2008)

*sigh* the reason for the high amount of recoil on the bolter is quite simple, and actually hinted towards in that interesting gyrojet youtube video posted earlier. The bolt needs to be lethal at short range, they can't risk it being capable of just bouncing off an unarmored man at 3 feet. One would imagine that a bolt would work along these lines. at the very rear of the bolt round you have the initial charge, which is for all intents and purposes exactly like a normal round's charge. This also explains why you see shells flying out of a bolters chamber, they are the casings containing the round and said initial charge. Follow? Now, within the actual solid round that has just left said shell due to the initial charge which may very well might have been set off by some sort of hammer or perhapse through electric stimulation, -what is now at the new rear- (which was previously in front of the charge), the 'gyrojet' propulsion system along with fuel, which kicks in a few feet from the barrel, further increasing the shells already quite substantial velocity from that point on, next in line is the mass reactive explosive that explodes shortly after penetrating the target ripping it apart from the inside, and finally the armor piercing deutronium or deuterium (w/e) tip that allows the round to tear through lighter armor. And so, the initial charge must be exceptionally strong in order to be capable of achieving the required penetrating power to pierce armored targets at close range. Hence the exceptional recoil required to initialize the work of beauty and art that is the flight of the holy .75 caliber Bolter Round.

aaaaAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaAAAAaaaaaaaMMMEEEEENNNNN

(Praise Be the Machine God)


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## Munky (Oct 2, 2008)

basically: click, bang, fiz, thwack and boom!:suicide:


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## AzraelJahannam (Jun 28, 2008)

Munky said:


> basically: click, bang, fiz, thwack and boom!:suicide:


Said with remarkable onomatopoeia Munky! eheh, that's essentially what it boils down to... SO NO ONE RECEIVES PERMISSION TO MISUNDERSTAND!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oohh.... and if it doesn't kill the poor blighter right off... there would be an "AAAAuuuggghhh.... gurgle gurgle Mother(brood queen/gods of the warp/Emperor/Name of sexy sister of battle I banged (or was banged by....) right before battle/C'tan/Gork/Etherial/Medic/Twisted Bondage Kinky Mother(Dark Eldar)/Machine Spirit/ etcetera) Gasp"


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## rdlb (Nov 30, 2008)

Here's is footage of a Javelin Missile Launcher. Real marines use it and it has a two stage charge like a bolter. A small charge to get it out of the tube and a second charge so it accelerates towards the target.





This in no way contributes to the argument about bolter recoil, but it is very cool...


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## Unforgiven302 (Oct 20, 2008)

Or this Javelin launch... DOH!!!


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## AzraelJahannam (Jun 28, 2008)

LMAO! I just about shat myself hahahaaaaa oh that was rich!


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## rata tat tat (Dec 23, 2008)

rdlb said:


> Here's is footage of a Javelin Missile Launcher. Real marines use it and it has a two stage charge like a bolter. A small charge to get it out of the tube and a second charge so it accelerates towards the target.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-dOJG4kXMA
> 
> This in no way contributes to the argument about bolter recoil, but it is very cool...


It's funny, just before the 2nd stage kicks in it almost looks like the thing is ready to drop out of the air.


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## rata tat tat (Dec 23, 2008)

Unforgiven302 said:


> Or this Javelin launch... DOH!!!
> 
> YouTube - Javelin Missile Gone Wrong


nice k:


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## Fugital357 (Jan 19, 2009)

It uses a similar system of the Gyrojet. However, unlike the Gyrojet as shown, bolters are usefull at short range. That small amount of powder that gets them out of the barrel? Yeah, its not that small at all... They're deadly without the rocket system.

Now, your probably asking why they have the rocket system when the powder charge is plenty-enough powerfull? Well, overkill, mostly. I mean, they're **** Space Marines


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

dirty-dog- said:


> Its Just like the rail guns on dawn of war, there would be no such thing as recaoil, or any sound produced from the projectile when it is in, leaving or out of the barrel.
> 
> but for some reason they think that it has tremendoes recoil, but it is powered by magntism, there is no recoil, and yet they say there is.
> 
> i think that this is the same kind of case, GW are crap at tieing all fluff together.


Oh dear, somone needs to go study high school physics again... anytime you shoot something there MUST always be recoil, in the case of rail guns because the projectile is moving so fast there'll be massive recoil (thanks to Mr Newton for coming up with such a useful law)


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

Oh dear, someone needs to go and study the principles of Tau Railguns again...

The projectile isn't really being shot, just accelerated to extremely high speeds (almost to the speed of light apparently) by a magnetic field, and then thrown out the end of the barrel. The only reason it moves towards the target is because of the momentum it already has (thanks to Mr. Newton for that useful Law as well). Like, when you throw a ball, there is no recoil. The Railgun works on that same principle, of "throwing" something, instead of "firing" it.


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## dirty-dog- (May 14, 2008)

Tim/Steve said:


> Oh dear, somone needs to go study high school physics again... anytime you shoot something there MUST always be recoil, in the case of rail guns because the projectile is moving so fast there'll be massive recoil (thanks to Mr Newton for coming up with such a useful law)


yea i probably do, but i found a gun on you tube that shoots a metal Slug into a concrete block, and does alot of damage. its called a rail gun and uses magnatisation to propell it.

i cant seem to find it anymore.


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## Capt.Al'rahhem (Jan 24, 2009)

I've heard the Navy had a really big experimental rail gun mounted centerline on a cruiser.

I know the Army has one for testing at Abberdeen Proving Ground, here in lovely Md. It's about 20ft long and fires a projectile in a rectangular sabot. It was featured on Future Weapons on the Military Channel. They are also working on an automated mortor on the rail gun/mass driver princible.

They are normal discibed as having no recoil. I know ever recaction has an equal and opposite reaction but I think for now the magnetic accelerators are so heavy compared to the projectile there is very little recoil.

On a side note in Battletech the only weapon powerful enough recoil to knock a Mech (up to 100 tons) on its butt is the Heavy Guass Rifle (which is a railgun).


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Shugotenshi47 said:


> But what I am saying is that the powered needed to leave the weapon should not be enough to create arm ripping recoil when used at least 2 handed. Because you don't need a full powder charge to leave the barrel because the rocket carries the bolt round to the target. Less powder means less recoil. I understand if the bolt gun has like m4 level recoil, a .75 caliber is a huge round but you shouldn't need arm ripping recoil to propel it out the weapon a few feet


For the record, as an interesting bit of trivia, many of the firearms used before the invention of cartridges were .75 caliber as standard.

So that it is clear, .75 caliber is a little larger than the diameter of a grown man's thumb, not fist-sized as many think it is ( damn video games). 

Personally, I believe the "massive' recoil of the bolter is due to two factors, the massive size of the weapon itseelf, and the lack of any recoil compensation. The M16 family of weapons have little recoil because of the part called the buffer spring,which is housed in the stock. This device allows for the recoil to be dampened so that the weapon maintains a high degree of accuracy. As for the powder charge, consider the m203 grenade launcher, which is lethal at even short ranges, and is 40mm, which is much larger than a bolt round at .75 cal (1/5 the size approx.). The only reason the m203 does not detonate at point- blank is the fuse in the grenade requires a minimum amount of rotations to occur before it is armed for explosion, However, there is enough velocity as it leaves the barrel to penetrate human flesh, as attested to be a recipient of THE medal from vietnam(whose name escapes me at the current time). He was awarded with THE medal because of his heroic action in removing an unexploded grenade from a fellow service member after it had entered his body, but failed to detonate, due to the extremely short range the grenade had been fired from. Neeedless to say, this shows that it does not take so much powder that it will rip a man's arm off, but maybe just enough that it would feel like it, similar to the effect one gets from firing a 12 guage without leaning into the shot.


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## Blind Cougar (Jan 30, 2009)

Just because it's a game, doesn't mean we won't hoot, holler, and gripe over it's minor things.

Much like football junkies and the Superbowl.


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## Kendares (Sep 9, 2008)

i do not know why we keep trying to relate this game to reality, because every time we there is all ways "problems" and things "physics" cant do. i say they have a massive recoil because they are bad ass weapons wielded by bad ass space marines. theres your answer. :so_happy:


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## Sorov (Feb 2, 2009)

The Bolter is a large, .75 caliber assault rifle. It has a much greater mass than most standard-issue rifles such as the Lasgun, although it is slightly shorter in length. Unlike most rifles, it lacks a stock, resulting in a grip much like a pistol's or submachine gun's. A Space Marine's bulky armor would make shouldering a stock an awkward experience, but power armor is most likely also able to compensate for vibrations and oscillation, making a stock redundant. Stocks are sometimes used, however, with an extended barrel and an M40 Targeter System to transform the bolter into a sniping weapon system. These sniper-bolters are most often used with Stalker Silenced Shells. 

[edit] Standard Bolter RoundBolter ammunition--called a 'bolt'--is a solid slug. Conventional solid slugs utilize a propellant charge contained in a casing that, when ignited, forces the bullet out of the barrel. In contrast, a bolt is self-propelled; It features its own integrated solid propellant which propels the bolt at high speeds, essentially acting like a miniature rocket. The propellant itself is shaped to control the bolt's direction and speed; However, this method of rocket propulsion would normally warp the barrel due to gas pressure. The Boltgun uses an ingenious method to prevent this. 

As well as the rocket propellant, a tiny amount of conventional charge is also utilized. This charge is just strong enough to force the bolt out of the barrel and ignite the bolt's propellant. The rocket-propellant is carefully fused to ignite just after leaving the barrel, alleviating any possibility of pressure build-up. The bolt then accelerates away towards the target under its own power. 

The standard boltgun ammunition is designed to penetrate the target and then detonate, causing immense damage to the target and leaving little opportunity for survival. 

Imperial Armour Volume 2: Space Marines and Forces of the Inquisition 2nd edition, (2004) p. 101. Kinrade, Warwick; Tony Cottrell. Nottingham: Forge World, ISBN 1-84154-526-0. 

As far as "physics" and your so-called "laws" go, the Emporer simply commanded them to not apply to the universe any more. Geesh!


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## lomaxxdurang (Jun 24, 2008)

Says ERIX missile launcher, it doesnt look like a javelin it looks like a knock off. But regardless as a guy in the army... misfires blow... but make great gag reals.


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## Saint7515 (Apr 30, 2008)

So, the idea is that Bolter rounds are 15+mm yes? made from... depleted uranium?

Yes its a game, and yes physics probably can't apply here, but remember its only fun cause its life-LIKE. Anywho - these rounds are supposed to be hollow and made of DEPLETED URANIUM and ROCKET FUEL!!! Each bullet would weigh around half a pound! Getting that out of a close-fiitting, rifled barrel would take alot of force, and maintaining flight would be tremendous - it would need both some explosive to start moving and further propulsion to not simply sink to the ground due to its huge mass without much work.

As for the railguns, there would be recoil, but very little. Remember, its the force of the magnet working against the force of a large metal beam that begins stationary - it wouldn't be really noticeable, because it would be the same amount of pressure against your arm/turret/whatever equal to 2-3 times the weight of the spike you're firing, but you're already holding a gun 30 times that weight! Hardly able to tell that you fired at all, but being attached to something designed to move ANYTHING from stationary to really fast always has the weight of the object you're propelling pushing on the force of the propellant (magnets, gun powder, what have you) pushing against you+the weight of the gun.

So, yay bolter shells needing continuous momentum or they would fall, yes recoil on railguns and bolter, NO it shouldn't be noticeable on the rail-guns, but holy cow bolter rounds are the same types of bullets we are firing out of 15 pound mounted snipers to bust through concrete bunkers today!


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

It's a magnet - there's no recoil from a Electromagnet, so why should there be when this particle is a Railgun shot? For a bolter round, we're talking about 17.5 mm, so yer, we're talking big bang for your "buck".


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## G_Morgan (Mar 3, 2008)

Cato Sicarius said:


> Oh dear, someone needs to go and study the principles of Tau Railguns again...
> 
> The projectile isn't really being shot, just accelerated to extremely high speeds (almost to the speed of light apparently) by a magnetic field, and then thrown out the end of the barrel. The only reason it moves towards the target is because of the momentum it already has (thanks to Mr. Newton for that useful Law as well). Like, when you throw a ball, there is no recoil. The Railgun works on that same principle, of "throwing" something, instead of "firing" it.


Actually throwing a ball has recoil, it is just so small compared to the mass of the body that you don't notice it. Hell if you jump into the air the planet will move slightly away from you.

Using magnetic fields does not negate Newtons laws. The field acts by applying a force between the projector and the bullet. So the magnetic coils themselves would recoil as per Maxwell's laws. However a rail gun is usually so huge that this recoil is small as well. There also tends to be a gradual build up of speed through the barrel which means the gun can absorb the recoil slowly.


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## Commissar Maximus (Sep 20, 2008)

Anybody saw the AA12 on youtube:shok:
Its a recoilless automatic shotgun whit a 30 round barrel like the good old thomson rifle.
It also fires explosive,armor piercing and auto propelled grenade up to 200 feet.Its not technologicly advance as and dosent even look like a boltgun but...:shok:I bet the boltguns of the deathwach have the same effect.World War 3 blow's up i want one and a flamer...so i can tell the bastard''I come to destroy you!''within my US exo-squeleton:threaten:

Seriously go see this.....i mean it.:wink:


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## HIz (Jan 31, 2009)

whoops double post
edit: ill use this to post a cool vid i found on railgunish idea.


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## HIz (Jan 31, 2009)

has anyone heard of a mark 19? our current armed forces have these as mounted weapons. They are essentially automatic grenade launchers aka bolter. They have recoil here is a vid. 




Now imagine they slightly reduced the size and made you hold it. You think you could shoot that your self?


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## Sloan13 (Feb 16, 2009)

That railishgun is pretty sweet and would be fun to make. But as for the recoil thing, it is just a game, so it doesn't always have to make perfect sense, only a little. I look at 40k more as a Sci-fi than anything else, which explains most things in this game.


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## revenant13 (Feb 15, 2008)

Could what G_Morgan said about recoil apply to the SM? i mean SM are so flippantly big and heavy that it doesnt appear to have recoil? or is the whole no recoil thing apply to IG bolt weapons as well?


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## lomaxxdurang (Jun 24, 2008)

Dont the Tau have more infantry based rail guns as well... I'm not a tau player so I cant remember for sure. But wouldn't a rail gun have recoil to the front of the weapon not to the rear. You'd not only have the weight of the round, but the weight of the shifting magnets forward, as well as the force necessary to throw the round.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

ok on the railgun issue, yes there is a recoil. the fact of the matter is that since the recoil is so tiny that you cant feel it because the size of the gun is much larger than whatever is being shot. the very fact that some people are saying there is no recoil violates the laws of physics, as do most other things in WH40K granted. this goes along with one of newton's laws, cant remember which, every action must have an equal and opposite reaction. while the magnet is launching said projectile in one direction it is in turn moving itself in the other, hence recoil but you cant really feel it unless you put a device up to it to measure. 

as for the boltgun yes it is going to have major friggin recoil. launching something that huge from a gun that is as small as it is it does not have as much "mass" to absorb the shock of the bang, if you will. the gun would have to be much bigger than it already is to have a smaller recoil like a railgun or a smaller gun. granted the boltgun is already huge enough, the space marines who are absolutely massive would have no problem dealing with the recoil. they probably wouldnt even notice it after awhile.


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