# How do you view Spacemarines?



## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

Good afternoon Heretics, Oldman with too much time on his hands here and I would like to know how YOU view spacemarines? The fluff on the astartes is wide and varied depending on the author, the setting, time of day etc so I would prefare no quotes from sources but just your opinion on what you think an astartes looks like, do you like them super tall and hulking or just scaled up lean mean killing machines, do like them as disfunctional phycos on a leash or pure cunning killers with humanity at their core, let us know...

Personally I like my spacemarines tall but not too tall, I like to see the connection to the humans they came from, physique wise, I like them to be scaled up versions of gymnasts, like the dudes that do the rings very large upper body arms shoulders with narrow waists to keep em nimble (marines are meant to be twinkle toed) and slightly pea headed, I have always imagined that to fit the extra organs and musculature that marines would be slightly out of preportion with the head looking a little small on the big shoulders. I have always imagined marines having quite deep slightly digitized sounding voices like people with gigantism (and because of dawn of war game).

Personality wise I like my marines to come across as pure killers, I would imagine marines to come across as quite cold individuals, with smiles that do not reach their eyes. I would imagine ordinary people would feel very uncomfortable in their presence but also compelled by them like a rat in the gaze of a king cobra. I would also imagine them to be very particular and precise in their movements and not to chatty when in the company of regular people unless required literally treating social interaction like a mission and acting accordingly.

Well that my take for the basics, what is your take?


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## Nacho libre (Feb 23, 2013)

Hmm I believe that marines are quite broad, maybe overly so. I think they are suppose to look like over scaled humans and may have some things out of proportion, such as facial features. I heard them being described like this in horus rising.

As for their personalities I think they are arrogant to a certain point due to them believing that they are superior to humans, this is not always the case due to certain astartes such as loken, argal tal and torgaddon. I think they are just like humans because they can still feel emotion.


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## Jolnir (Feb 11, 2014)

Since they are essentially "super soldiers", I'd see them as possessing two characteristics of psychopathy: boldness (lack of fear, tolerance of danger, etc.), meanness (lacking empathy, disdain of emotional attachment, etc.). However, I wouldn't see them as psychos because I'd see them with enough self control to not be impulsive.

As far as physical stature, I like the gymnast theory that Oldman stated.


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

In my head I humanize all of my factions a bit. The fluff I've dreamed up for a future CSM project involves a loyalist chapter with a strong connection to their home world/system siding with their people against the Imperium after their home world is condemned for trading with xenos. I'm also on the cusp of starting an Ork project with them being smarter and a little less warlike than the simplistic 40k fluff given to them. I imagine a barbarian race living on a mountainous, desert and jungle environment and typically warring with their neighbours but not necessarily always at war with all of them. Their major ambition is to build something that will take them into space, though many of them believe such a thing isn't possible and only the planet they live on truly exists.

I prefer to think of SM as a little smaller than the lore indicates


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## Sevatar (Aug 21, 2013)

That's hard to answer. Physical appearance depends very much on the Chapter/Legion of the SM in question. 

I picture most Space Marines at least a head taller than the biggest **** Sapiens around today, with most of them being taller than that. In one of the Heresy books it is mentioned (IIRC) that their facial features are overly broad/squashed due to the increased size. Which makes them harder to distinguish for the average human.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Big, Brawne, Brutes with a human intelligence. They are basically drugged up Knights, or Samurai if you will, using the modern weapons of war to achieve their ends. Simple as that.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I'm a little taken back at what people perceive marines to be. Maybe I'm a little off my rocker?

Physically...I think we can all mostly agree with what they are physically.

Mentally, I'm a bit shocked. Everyone so far has described so very...human. 

They're not. Not in my mind. Their personalities and motivations have been narrowed down to honor, duty, and loyalty to the Emperor, their Primarch, and their brothers (in that order).

I'm painting broad strokes here (and clearly not all marines feel this way), but I don't think most marines should actually have a rather low emotional intelligence. 

They're taken from dangerous worlds where the drive to survive supersedes the finer points of civilization. Not only that, they are taken as *children*. Even if they lived in better circumstances, biologically they're not ready to really understand other people.

Then they're indoctrinated by chemical, psychic, and hypnotic means to fight, listen to orders, and praise the Emperor. And additionally whatever quirks their Chapters holds. 

The rest of their time is spent training to fight, recovering from fights, or ultimately fighting. 

It's not like marines don't like dealing with humans, they simply do not know how to interact with humans. I think ADB is probably the closest to depicting the inhuman-ness of the Astartes in _The Emperor's Gift_ and _Helsreach_. 

An Astartes is probably closer to an advanced combat servitor than a human in terms of how they think.

Space Marines aren't simply humans with extra organs and super strength. They are other. They are post-human.


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## Drohar (Jan 22, 2014)

They are just consumable biomass for the ever growing Hive Fleet.



They are human super soldiers with the human bit taken away. I'd say human Nids, just feel what they are meant to feel and do what they are meant to do; Fight fearlessly against enemies of the Emperor.


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## Nacho libre (Feb 23, 2013)

Drohar said:


> They are just consumable biomass for the ever growing Hive Fleet.
> 
> 
> 
> They are human super soldiers with the human bit taken away. I'd say human Nids, just feel what they are meant to feel and do what they are meant to do; Fight fearlessly against enemies of the Emperor.


I heard that they taste like chicken.


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## Stormxlr (Sep 11, 2013)

Nacho libre said:


> I heard that they taste like chicken.


Doesn't everything?


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## Scrad (Apr 4, 2014)

hailene said:


> It's not like marines don't like dealing with humans, they simply do not know how to interact with humans. I think ADB is probably the closest to depicting the inhuman-ness of the Astartes in _The Emperor's Gift_ and _Helsreach_.


Agreed. 

Their utter lack of comprehension of some of the thoughts/feelings/actions regular humans take is what sets them apart. In some sense they are warrior children.

On the opposite spectrum of this is someone like Loken, who i like to believe was unique but a portrayal of what an average 30k had the potential to be after considerable time. Something moulded more to understand the different strains of humanity due to the teachings of their Primarchs as well as from actions unifying humanity in the Great Crusade.


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## VulkansNodosaurus (Dec 3, 2010)

Well, it's pretty much been explicitly stated that 30K Marines were much more human than the 40K versions. In 30K, Astartes are humans; warriors, emotionally impaired, insanely brave - but, ultimately, part of the species they fight for. In 40K, Astartes are on a spectrum between those 30K Space Knights and the other extreme, the sapient combat servitors. They still have individual personalities, but to varying extents those aren't necessarily human personalities.

From most to least human, I'd rank the major Chapters as so:
Space Wolves
Salamanders
Blood Angels
White Scars
Ultramarines
Raven Guard
Dark Angels
Imperial Fists
Black Templar
Grey Knights
Iron Hands


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

@hailene

Complete agreement. 

It would be one thing to take adult men who are already soldiers and enhance them. it's quite another to take children, children who have grown up on some of the worst worlds of the Imperium, and subject them to a life of constant war in conjunction with extreme mental conditioning. 

Space Marines are not people. They're sapient, organic weapons. What emotions they have are focused around duty and loyalty to the Emperor, Chapter, Imperium and hatred for its enemies. 

There are of course exceptions. The Ultrarmarines for example, by virtue of recruiting from a civilized populous in a structured way are likely more 'human'. That said I imagine the culture of the training barracks are much more like a psudeo-Spartan society focused around duty, obedience, loyalty, honour etc to the exclusion of all else. They may think more like humans but not have the same feelings as it were. 

At anyrate 40k astartes are certainly more inhuman than 30k. 30k astartes seem like man made better, his abilities enhanced. 40k astartes seem more like mad re-made, the natural development process perverted into something no longer human.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Rems said:


> The Ultrarmarines for example, by virtue of recruiting from a civilized populous in a structured way are likely more 'human'.


Interesting point you bring up about the Ultramarines. There may be something more than simply culture. From _The Unremembered Empire_:

"John read the legionary’s ambition more closely, and saw it for what it really was – a kind of nobility. Sergeant Zyrol wanted honour. He wanted promotion. He wanted the transverse broom-crest of a centurion. To earn that, he knew he had to be just like his primarch: open and honest, compassionate, caring, serious, truthful, firm, effective. This was not an act. This was his belief model.* It was in his gene-code*."

It's literally in their genes to act the way they do.


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## Jolnir (Feb 11, 2014)

A human is a human in much the same way as a dog is a dog. My analogy would be a Space Marine is to a civilian as a military-trained German Shepherd is to a house-trained Yorkshire Terrier. Both share similar general features, but differ greatly in personality, instincts, disposition, and physical dimensions. This is my .02 on the matter.


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## Ecumene (Oct 10, 2013)

According to the descriptions of various associated novels, especially in the Marine-centered ones, Astartes are definitely human. Even several of the most brutal and 'inhuman' chapters, such as deamon-hunting Gray Knights, have quite distinct personalities and wide variety of humane emotions. Even though their past memories are wiped out utterly and personality is redacted radically during ruthless, almost cruel training process, they retain some of the inalienable humanity. Most marines are NOT some kind of simple killer Iron-man robots or glorified combat servitors(except current Iron Hands, of course. I cannot find better description about them; ironically their conducts are polar opposite of ardent wish of their primogenitor. And sadly, in this degraded era, significant portion of Astartes Chapters are exactly like them), nor warmongering, cold-blooded psychopaths.

And to speak more 'humanistic' variants of of Astartes(such as Space Wolves, Salamander, Ultramarines etc.), I personally think they are all humanistic in similar degree, not certain chapter more and certain chapter less. In truth, boundaries are often blurred. For example, Ultramarines and Salamander are essentially equally humanistic, merely different from their unique propensity and basic methodology; also some Ultramarines are even more cheerful and boisterous than most Space Wolves, whereas several of Wolves are even more solemn and laconic in their behavior than most Imperial Fists, actually. 

Yes, Astartes are first and foremost warriors, the super soldiers and protectors of humankind. In fact, unlike much-regressed 40k, 30k era humanity thought Astartes are merely heavily augmented transhumans, and in some cases, even inhuman and/or raving monsters, fighting machines. Their fundamental existential purpose is war. Their primary specialty and focus is war. But I think they are many things besides beings of organic weapons and they indeed could do many things. 

They are not only mightier, faster, tougher than normal humans(so-called 'mortals') but also generally smarter, incredibly strong-willed, more judicious and level-headed than most mortals. As proved in numerous examples and occasions, they can be virtually everything with proper training; architect, administrator, planetary governor, scholar-librarian, artist, technologist, engineer and many more. Then again, they excel most mortals in the respective realms. Oh yes, as poor Guilliman has always thought, they have tremendous raw potential as leaders of humanity. Indeed, emperor himself doesn't want to make Astartes as inhuman killing machines; their is a good reason he purged Thunder Warriors after finishing The Unity.

And lastly, I will assert each and every Astartes are delivering heroes of humanity, who exceed the most wildest dreams of humankind; without them, this already bleak galaxy will undeniably become much, much grimmer and darker place...


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Ecumene said:


> According to the descriptions of various associated novels


I would say this is more of a failure of the authors. Maybe failure is too harsh. It's the...hurdle authors have difficulty clearing. I made a thread about this actually!

Right here in this forum!

Edit: How do I not make the link red?


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Agreed. 

To accurately portray the inhuman mentality of a Space Marine would be very difficult, not to mention create an unappealing novel. ADB gets the closest I think; his Black Templars have a suitable level of bewilderment and disdain about humans. Even that is a pale shadow of what they should be however.

On the plus side recently the novels have made great strides in portraying the astartes as properly trans-human at least physically and mentally. we're seeing in the works of Abnett, ADB and others just how different these gene-forged trans-humans are. Think of the internal monologue of the Ultramarines Captain on the orbital in the opening of _Know No Fear_.


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## Ecumene (Oct 10, 2013)

Rems said:


> Agreed.
> 
> To accurately portray the inhuman mentality of a Space Marine would be very difficult, not to mention create an unappealing novel. ADB gets the closest I think; his Black Templars have a suitable level of bewilderment and disdain about humans. Even that is a pale shadow of what they should be however.
> 
> On the plus side recently the novels have made great strides in portraying the astartes as properly trans-human at least physically and mentally. we're seeing in the works of Abnett, ADB and others just how different these gene-forged trans-humans are. Think of the internal monologue of the Ultramarines Captain on the orbital in the opening of _Know No Fear_.


As a great fan of Warhammer 40k universe, I have collected all of obtainable BL novels. And my greatest, almost obsessive interest among them is no other than HH series. However in the majority of cases, I cannot feel Astartes arel _that_ different from normal human. 

Unquestionably there are some distinctive traits common in Astartes, which separate them form mortals. However I think most of loyalist Astartes are quite likable, heroic and above all sympathizable, and although a firm believer of Imperium's ideal, I could even empathize some of traitor Astartesㅡmaybe _that_ is the intention of BL authors, of course.

As you already said, particular authors and/or recent books tend to catch quite well posthuman mental structure and peculiar characteristics of Astartes, but at least from my perspective, most of them more or less close enough to human, not some organic killing machine wearing human mask or something like that. 

Indeed, their mentality are certainly different from mortals, but I think most of them are not sufficiently 'inhuman'.

p.s But I would also like to see completely 'alien' version of Astartes...


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

The original fluff of them being stone cold psychopaths not fit or too dangerous to mingle with normal humans was the best version. That makes what we see of the WE and NLs preHeresy the closest to what they should be like. 

ADB did a great job in Helsreach of depicting the almost autistic disconnect between SMs and normal humans. They have no room for pity, empathy, concern for anything for anybody beyond the achievement of the mission. 

Physically they should be 8 or 9 feet tall and very thick muscled. Big, blocky, powerful. The fact that they are so fast and nimble is meant to be juxtaposed with this apparent bulk. 

If anything, the new Ogryns would be much closer to the size they should be in reality.


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## DeathGlam (Apr 17, 2014)

My personal view is of them being "heroic" in their own personal view but from a regular human's point of view they are a monster to be scared of, even if they are on your side.

I am really not a fan of the chapters who are portrayed to be more "human" or caring.

I see them as a blunt jackhammer style attack that is unleashed when times are desperate, that will often save the day but if you wanna be around for what is left after they save the day is very unlikely.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

Well my view is that they would appear to us as stone cold killers, but like the perfect predator would adapt to their environment, think something like The Terminator, the more a spacemarine is in human company the more he would act human but behind it all all singing all dancing killer.


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## DeathGlam (Apr 17, 2014)

I could see that as part of my personal interpretation.

I just like the idea of them being less heroic saviours of mankind and more purely a tool that is created and trained to be the best the imperium has at achieving the objective rather then being worried about the people they are supposed to be protecting.

If they both are one and the same then yes they would appear as saviours but that is not their main goal.


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## Nick_dog (Jun 16, 2008)

I was wondering if anyone would be able to compare the differences between 3rd edition space marines and the now current 6th edition.

When I was much younger and 3rd had just come out I remember having a completely different view on space marines. Back then space marines which elite soldiers but still essentially human. In essence they were more relatable. I'm not sure if this was a young boys imagination or how the fluff at the time portrayed them. I would be very curious if anybody has an answer.


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## Brother Emund (Apr 17, 2009)

I think that apart from being super, super fit etc and a foot taller than the average human..
They are akin to certain types of special Forces that are around today.

In their own company, away from others, I am sure they are good company and a great bunch to be around. If you are not a Space marine, they will be Off-ish and quiet and come over as arrogant and insular and not give you the time of day.

Like the parachute-trained soldiers in the British Army. If you do not wear the maroon (beige or green) beret, you are a 'crap hat' and inferior to them!


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

Depends on the situation. If we look from a human viewpoint, they would appear as towering, awe inspiring walking tanks of doom. I'm quite sure I would feel nothing but sheer respect, being in their presence. That and probably pissing my pants. 

If we were to witness them in action, I'm quite sure it would appear as daydreaming fantasy, witnessing feats of strength, speed and power unlike anything you could see or imagine in real life. It would be like witnessing demi-gods in their own right. 

No comment on primarchs, I'd simply crap my pants.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I finally got a copy of ADB's "Blood and Fire" and I think a quotation from Grimaldus is spot on what a Space Marine is:

"Take a child, allow it to develop without ever understanding the frailties of human weakness, and force it to grow through ingesting nothing but the virtues of obedience, loyalty, and combat prowess. Surround it in ceramite. Arm it with fire. Tell it that it answers to no authority beyond its equally powerful, equally unrestrained brothers.
That is a Space Marine. *Not a human trained to be a weapon, but a weapon with a human soul*."

Bold is mine.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

hailene said:


> Sorry to revive an old thread, but I finally got a copy of ADB's "Blood and Fire" and I think a quotation from Grimaldus is spot on what a Space Marine is:
> 
> "Take a child, allow it to develop without ever understanding the frailties of human weakness, and force it to grow through ingesting nothing but the virtues of obedience, loyalty, and combat prowess. Surround it in ceramite. Arm it with fire. Tell it that it answers to no authority beyond its equally powerful, equally unrestrained brothers.
> That is a Space Marine. *Not a human trained to be a weapon, but a weapon with a human soul*."
> ...


Yeah, ADB seems to have the best grasp of just how different SMs truly are from the humanity they protect. The scene in Helsreach when the child speaks to Grimaldus is brilliant. He just doesn't know how to interact with her, and his armour keeps putting a target lock on her. I asked him it at the BL event in Dublin last year, and he said he was going for that slightly autistic portrayal to illustrate that gulf between them.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I think that quote would be more powerful if told by a non-Astartes. Grimaldus being aware of his nature in that manner feels misplaced.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

DeathGlam said:


> My personal view is of them being "heroic" in their own personal view but from a regular human's point of view they are a monster to be scared of, even if they are on your side.
> 
> I am really not a fan of the chapters who are portrayed to be more "human" or caring.
> 
> I see them as a blunt jackhammer style attack that is unleashed when times are desperate, that will often save the day but if you wanna be around for what is left after they save the day is very unlikely.


I remember a scene in one of the early Horus Heresy books where the Luna Wolves slaughter a bunch of human remembrancers and civilians for some reason or another. Just splattering 'em. I need to read some more of these books.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

venomlust said:


> I remember a scene in one of the early Horus Heresy books where the Luna Wolves slaughter a bunch of human remembrancers and civilians for some reason or another. Just splattering 'em. I need to read some more of these books.


I think that was when they returned to the Vengeful Spirit after Horus was wounded, and the remembrancers got in their way. They stomped all over them.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

I think them like Vin Diesel or what he's name is. Put him in photoshop and change his size by making it 30% vertikaly smaller, not horizontialy. Then take the whole picture except the head and make it 100 % bigger. There you have it.

Mentaly? The books I have red paint them with the whole spektrum of human emotion so my view are quite human but because their long life and everpresent dangers of war they may be a bit more cold and harsh.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I think that quote would be more powerful if told by a non-Astartes. Grimaldus being aware of his nature in that manner feels misplaced.


Grimaldus sorta has an epiphany after defending Helsreach. He's a bit more...human? Or at least, understanding of the human perspective.

My gut instinct was to reject this character development, but it makes sense after serving with humans for those brutal months of warfare defending Helsreach. In the end, I liked it.

I think this little bit of introspection into the nature of Space Marines jives well with his new perspective.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

hailene said:


> I'm a little taken back at what people perceive marines to be. Maybe I'm a little off my rocker?
> 
> Physically...I think we can all mostly agree with what they are physically.
> 
> ...


Generally 999 Chapters out of a thousand I'd agree but I think the Salamanders are more human and seem to make sure they stay that way.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

hailene said:


> Grimaldus sorta has an epiphany after defending Helsreach. He's a bit more...human? Or at least, understanding of the human perspective.
> 
> My gut instinct was to reject this character development, but it makes sense after serving with humans for those brutal months of warfare defending Helsreach. In the end, I liked it.
> 
> I think this little bit of introspection into the nature of Space Marines jives well with his new perspective.


I agree. The development of his relationship with Andrej from the start of Helsreach to the end of Blood and Fire really shows how he is learning to deal with humans. He's still not great, but he's getting there.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I'd figure them to be fairly autistic in their attitudes. They have a stunted social interaction and are results driven. They are one of a few to be chosen, one of even fewer to survive the process, and even less to survive the horrors of combat. They are worshipped as heroes across the imperoum, probably with action figures or similar, and are seen as literal angels of the Emperor.

They outclass anything human, where they have been shown to chase speeding vehicles, and withstand immensely powerful weaponry - autocannon rounds are often likened to 40mm shells, while stubbers are 50 cal guns, their basoc weaponry being more powerful than what is considered the heaviest machine gun in modern era weaponry which is already capable of destroying the bodies of those it hits, and is something that is only normally mounted on a vehicle.

They can carry and serve their own heavy weapon system - including aforementioned 40mm autocannons or full calibre explosive rocket launchers. They are pretty much a walking medium tank in todays terms.

They do not get PTSD

They do not have family.

They do not have friends.

Their weekend off is not a few beers down the pub woth some matea from school days.

They are uniquely engineered killing machines, designed to go against the literal demons, and face down Orks which can be oitweigh a human by around 3:1 in hand to hand, fight tyranids whose reactions are near light speed and can peel open battle tank armour like a packet of crisps, and win then do the same again. And again.

They are desogned to enter a battlefield from a positio in low orbit, not only survove the ground shattering impact, but exit the drop pod before it is destroyed by heavy weapons, and fight. They have eodetic memories and access to some of the most advanced battle intelligence ever conceived, filter all that information as it comes up on their HUD, enact on it, and utilise all of its abilities during the middle of combat.

It must be like trying to pick out a moving target on a video game where ypu are trying to factor in things like bullet drop, coriolis effect, wind deviance, while avoiding hitting friendlies in the crowd he is dpdging through, as ypur little brother is starting a pillow fight, you are attempting to revise for next weeks test and keep an eye on next doors dog which is taking a shit on your lawn. A near physical impossibility for us, and yet something of that complexity is an Astartes bread and butter.

There is nothing that even fellow elites like Scions can remotely empathise with or bond with on a more even level than they are good soldiers. 

If you have ever read the book the 'curious case about the dog in the garden' which details a boys struggles with aspergers, I feel that is simiar to how an Astartes should be with others.

When it is arpund people it is comfortable with, then it is fine, the awkwardess goes, and they become more normal. Hell it is hard for todays soldiers to relate to their families the hell of what happened in Afghanistan, and those who fought during The world wars is a horror not many can live with.

Hell, on my last tour in ghanners, we took a psychiatrix test on our return. 17 out of the 26 in the unit were defined as sociopaths, woth personality traits matching Lord Voldemort, Sauron and Emperor Palpatine on the little sheets they gave us. The other 9 were various, but they certainly weren't harry/frodo/luke, aragorn/han/dumbledore. We're essentially fucked up - and then amplify that a thousand times.

Literal warrior monks. Nearest analogy is probably Shaolin monks or crossed woth Terminators.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> Generally 999 Chapters out of a thousand I'd agree but I think the Salamanders are more human and seem to make sure they stay that way.


Space Marines also have serfs which depends on the chapter, some are failed SMs, others are local humans that have sworn to serve (it would make sense if salamanders have these). Socially I tend to view SMs mental ranging from otakus to autistic.


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## Demon of Humanity (Aug 19, 2013)

Vaz said:


> I'd figure them to be fairly autistic in their attitudes. They have a stunted social interaction and are results driven. They are one of a few to be chosen, one of even fewer to survive the process, and even less to survive the horrors of combat. They are worshipped as heroes across the imperoum, probably with action figures or similar, and are seen as literal angels of the Emperor.
> 
> They outclass anything human, where they have been shown to chase speeding vehicles, and withstand immensely powerful weaponry - autocannon rounds are often likened to 40mm shells, while stubbers are 50 cal guns, their basoc weaponry being more powerful than what is considered the heaviest machine gun in modern era weaponry which is already capable of destroying the bodies of those it hits, and is something that is only normally mounted on a vehicle.
> 
> ...


Not get PTSD? Tell that to Sargent Avitus of the blood ravens who did get it and caused him to betray his chapter.

as for astartes some are inhuman in thought but others like the salamanders , celestial lions, ultramarines and space wolves remain very much human. Salamanders make sure of this and have gone to blows with other chapters for sacrificing civilians.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Demon of Humanity said:


> Not get PTSD? Tell that to Sargent Avitus of the blood ravens who did get it and caused him to betray his chapter.
> 
> as for astartes some are inhuman in thought but others like the salamanders , celestial lions, ultramarines and space wolves remain very much human. Salamanders make sure of this and have gone to blows with other chapters for sacrificing civilians.


Also outside of video games, there's a few books where the astartes are clearly suffering from PTSD, or at least guilt.

Plus in some chapters the marines do have friends.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Demon of Humanity said:


> Not get PTSD? Tell that to Sargent Avitus of the blood ravens who did get it and caused him to betray his chapter.


Please. The Blood Ravens are a garbage chapter the gaming division of GW made up that combined the Psyker prowess of the Thousand Sons + the nobility of *random chapter* to please a demographic I had no idea existed.

There are no decent/serious stories or novels featuring them unless you consider CS Goto to be an actual author. To the more devoted readers of BL, they are a joke chapter that don't exist.

Space Marines do not get PTSD. They cannot. It is one of the fundamentals of their existence. Just like how they cannot feel fear.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Please. The Blood Ravens are a garbage chapter the gaming division of GW made up that combined the Psyker prowess of the Thousand Sons + the nobility of *random chapter* to please a demographic I had no idea existed.
> 
> There are no decent/serious stories or novels featuring them unless you consider CS Goto to be an actual author. To the more devoted readers of BL, they are a joke chapter that don't exist.
> 
> Space Marines do not get PTSD. They cannot. It is one of the fundamentals of their existence. Just like how they cannot feel fear.


So I guess you never read Blood of asaheim , fall of damnos, or the apoc expansion Damnos released by GW.

Because it makes pretty clear that the damnos campaign messed Sicarous up.

Regardless if what you are lead to believe space marines are still humans. Eventually they will reach the limit as to what they can take once that is done they're break just like anyone else.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

PTSD and becoming cynical/jaded/distrustful are two different things.
But no I haven't read the above to completion.

Quotes would be nice. In any case, as we know authors in BL are no strangers to changing fluff to suit their needs hence my belief that BL is being carried on the shoulders of three men.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> PTSD and becoming cynical/jaded/distrustful are two different things.
> But no I haven't read the above to completion.
> 
> Quotes would be nice. In any case, as we know authors in BL are no strangers to changing fluff to suit their needs hence my belief that BL is being carried on the shoulders of three men.


Warzone damnos, pg 16 cato sicarius section. Paraphrasing.


> All trace of humor lost from gruff persona and in battle his violent displays of courage became reckless to the point of unnecessary endangerment, to the lives of the men under his command. ...
> 
> Only returning to damnos allowed Sicarius to erase the memories and premonitions that haunted him.


 Visions of the necron lord that nearly cut him in half by the way.

This book wasn't written by a random BL author, Phil Kelly wrote the supplement and it has already been established that most of the codex writers help each other.

So there if Captain Cato Sicarius of the second company of the ultramarines, GW's cash cow shows signs of PTSD what does that say of other chapters?

They're conditioned to do things that no other human can, but when it comes down to it they're human.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

"All trace of humor lost from gruff persona and in battle his violent displays of courage became reckless to the point of unnecessary endangerment, to the lives of the men under his command. ...

Only returning to damnos allowed Sicarius to erase the memories and premonitions that haunted him."

That's not PTSD. That's guilt. Remorse.

In addition it's Nick 'Fire' Kyme. I already stated how certain authors take liberties with the fluff to suit their needs.

Explain the supplement bit. The above was in Damnos or some codex?


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> "All trace of humor lost from gruff persona and in battle his violent displays of courage became reckless to the point of unnecessary endangerment, to the lives of the men under his command. ...
> 
> Only returning to damnos allowed Sicarius to erase the memories and premonitions that haunted him."
> 
> That's not PTSD. That's guilt. Remorse.


PTSD has allot of symptons saying someone doesn't have it breaks the first rule of mental health treatment.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

venomlust said:


> I remember a scene in one of the early Horus Heresy books where the Luna Wolves slaughter a bunch of human remembrancers and civilians for some reason or another. Just splattering 'em. I need to read some more of these books.


It was after Horus was wounded and the remembrancers were doing what reporters do and crowding around the landing zone.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Demon of Humanity said:


> Not get PTSD? Tell that to Sargent Avitus of the blood ravens who did get it and caused him to betray his chapter.
> 
> as for astartes some are inhuman in thought but others like the salamanders , celestial lions, ultramarines and space wolves remain very much human. Salamanders make sure of this and have gone to blows with other chapters for sacrificing civilians.


Quoted poster clearly has no idea of PTSD.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> I agree. The development of his relationship with Andrej from the start of Helsreach to the end of Blood and Fire really shows how he is learning to deal with humans. He's still not great, but he's getting there.


Oh, my, God. I was in stitches in the first conversation between Grim and Andrej. Hilarious.

I think the short snippets of him and Grim fighting in the end were maybe a bit...corny. Maybe something a bit below the standards of ADB's generally serious (and mighty good) writing. Seen in that light, it's sorta weak.

Seen in a more general light, it was fun and good. Not really grim-dark...but I liked it.

Plus Grim getting hugged by the general. Touching.

I hope Andrej gets stuck with Grim chasing Ghaz.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

that differs per chapter/legion


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Well, considering most(?) SMs have their minds wiped after encounters with Chaos to ensure their relative mental stability, what about other instances? Effects of torture, prolonged intense violence, sole-survivor of a unit/company, etc. would tell me an SM goes through regular mental/emotional housecleaning to keep them being the trans-humans we know and love. The implication that they can live for hundreds of years under constant conditions any one of which would drive a normal human insane would point to them otherwise being truly non-human following their conversion.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Well, considering most(?) SMs have their minds wiped after encounters with Chaos to ensure their relative mental stability, what about other instances? Effects of torture, prolonged intense violence, sole-survivor of a unit/company, etc. would tell me an SM goes through regular mental/emotional housecleaning to keep them being the trans-humans we know and love. The implication that they can live for hundreds of years under constant conditions any one of which would drive a normal human insane would point to them otherwise being truly non-human following their conversion.


I would have repped this thread if I could. As usual TMT is solid with his thoughts.

Would add that the viewpoints comes from Grey knights and Space Wolves, which tend to differ for no good reasons.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Not sure really. Your right about how they are depicted very differently. As far as personality goes I view them in many ways as warrior monks. Marines tend to have many years of experience, training, and patience. I would say most are very disciplined and scholarly warriors. I view these beings who live longer and are probably more intelligent to pass the trials in the first place as a lot more ambitious than normal human beings.

I used to think that Astartes were extremely more powerful than normal human beings and so forth. However, there are so many weapons in the imperial armory as well as other race armories that make Astartes armor useless. So I'm not really sure. Its something that has really vexed me for a long time. Your read about hundreds of thousands of imperial guard running into a meat grinder for no reason other than to buy time. I always wondered why they didn't just use special weapons teams to counter astartes. I kind of view the astartes as attack helicopters. They have the ability to bring hell upon their enemies but at the same time you don't want them exposed for too long. That's just how I feel about it though. Now we are seeing more in the game in terms of flyer units and more tanks in the games themselves.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

To learn from mistakes, you often need to be alive - SM rarely leave them alive. Considering that they can bypass defence installations, with drop pods capable of avoiding AA, and that their vehicles are far tougher than what the game suggests (Movie Marines from way back had the Rhino sitting at AV13 for example), there are very few theoretical defences to them. 

It isn't like 40k where you have a handy codex in front of you, you are facing an attack against an opponent who is martially and intellectually superior with the experiences of many such an attack, he has the initiative, and the choice of avenues with which to attack. Each of the soldiers under his command are likely tried and tested combat veterans with possibly more experience in a front line role than infantry units these days ever considered - the average infantryman getting too old for it around 32ish, a space marine likely having that much experience. Even those not battle tested like scout Neophytes are trained from their induction (as early as their first day for some like Red Scorpions), and have many more years of extremely intense training that would make todays SF blink hard.

It would be the equivalent of a toddler in play group wondering how they stop the SAS from fast roping onto their roof. (PS, the answer is give them a book deal)

The best defence against a Space Marine is to prevent them from getting within drop pod launching range - hence why Vraks tooks so long.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

For me especially after the Horus Heresy they seem to be a failed experiment (and yeah I'm very aware of the contingencies with Chaos and all that).

But that's how I would regard anything that fails (half of their initial number turned against their creator and still a few are turning), take a lot of manpower to produce (you have to shift through hundreds or more candidates just to make one and most becomes causalities), they often have limited understanding of military strategy (some have been downright incompetent general failures) and they have to be limited in power just to prevent them from taking over again.

Of course you have the more positive examples, but I don't care about them. I care about the weak links in a chain not the strong ones. And yeah the IOM would collapse without the Space Marines as they are needed to keep humanity in the fight (I trust or at least hope that would take the edge off from the fans that think the Space Marines are too awesome).


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Vaz said:


> To learn from mistakes, you often need to be alive - SM rarely leave them alive. Considering that they can bypass defence installations, with drop pods capable of avoiding AA, and that their vehicles are far tougher than what the game suggests (Movie Marines from way back had the Rhino sitting at AV13 for example), there are very few theoretical defences to them.
> 
> It isn't like 40k where you have a handy codex in front of you, you are facing an attack against an opponent who is martially and intellectually superior with the experiences of many such an attack, he has the initiative, and the choice of avenues with which to attack. Each of the soldiers under his command are likely tried and tested combat veterans with possibly more experience in a front line role than infantry units these days ever considered - the average infantryman getting too old for it around 32ish, a space marine likely having that much experience. Even those not battle tested like scout Neophytes are trained from their induction (as early as their first day for some like Red Scorpions), and have many more years of extremely intense training that would make todays SF blink hard.
> 
> ...


I prefer the following but it has been noted several times about their armor and even strength being the ultimate aspect of being an astartes. With all the weaponry available against them I feel if that was really tested they would be vaporized.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Where Astartes physicality is concerned, I take the wide view. I assume that each of the various views presented by the many different authors and artists out there represents the wide gamut of results that the geneseed implantation process can produce... depending on how a given Legion or Chapter goes about it.

With that in mind, you can have Space Marines whose facial features suggest gigantism and whose bodies are disproportionate and packed with excessive amounts of muscle. I simply assume they are the products of Chapters whose process for creating a Space Marine isn't necessarily refined. I can also accept Space Marines who are perfectly proportioned and sculpted like gymnasts or wrestlers from the Olympic Games, and whose facial features summon to mind statues of Renaissance Masters. They could be the product of a Chapter whose process is painstaking and driven toward producing a warrior worthy of the Emperor's perfect genetic material. 

Similarly, I think Space Marines vary just as much mentally and psychologically. I think it's too easy to describe all warriors of the Adeptus Astartes as psychopaths, cold-blooded killers, or as unable to identify with human emotion and thought process. It really comes down to the culture of each Chapter out there.

For instance, consider the Ultramarines, or the White Consuls. These are Chapters whose culture and mentality is aimed at producing not just warriors, but champions of humanity: they coexist with those they are sworn to protect, and are indoctrinated to uphold tenets of honor and nobility. They don't see themselves are separate from the societies that surround them, but as their pillars. Their empathy may very well be stunted in that they can only relate along military or political lines, but they interact enough with human soldiery, Astropaths, Navigators, Tech Adepts, civic leaders, etc., to at least have an understanding of what motivates or hinders ordinary people. They might not _identify_ with those things, but that's a whole different matter.

By contrast, the Flesh Tearers are brought up in Cretacia, which is literally Dinosaur World, suffer from the Red Thirst and the Black Rage, and define their entire existence along the lines of violence and hate. Their interactions with normal people, and their capacity to understand them, will obviously be vastly different from that of Ultramarines.

Similarly, the Dark Angels go out of their way to brainwash their Aspirants so that they can't recall their childhoods. Chapters that do that make me think of the old Vampire Role-Playing Game, wherein vampires who rejected their humanity followed Paths of Enlightenment. These were essentially codes of alternative morality, and it strikes me that they are very much like what a Chapter like the Dark Angels develops for its battle-brothers.


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## Warhawk (Oct 2, 2014)

More and more the Imperium is looking like the Star Wars galaxy: There are so many nooks and crannies that it's realistically a blank slate for lore, and only the gross abstract is worth noting in regards to galaxy-wide trends. To that end, the average Space Marine chapter shows up in tough spots, obliterates tough spots with surgical strikes and/or overwhelming, tireless tech-heavy bludgeoning, and leaves. If it's really bad, more than one chapter appears. Anything else is gravy; the fate of one chapter won't affect the whole galaxy, which is as much a plot line as it is a device for storytelling.


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## Doom wolf (Oct 10, 2014)

Phoebus said:


> Where Astartes physicality is concerned, I take the wide view. I assume that each of the various views presented by the many different authors and artists out there represents the wide gamut of results that the geneseed implantation process can produce... depending on how a given Legion or Chapter goes about it.
> 
> With that in mind, you can have Space Marines whose facial features suggest gigantism and whose bodies are disproportionate and packed with excessive amounts of muscle. I simply assume they are the products of Chapters whose process for creating a Space Marine isn't necessarily refined. I can also accept Space Marines who are perfectly proportioned and sculpted like gymnasts or wrestlers from the Olympic Games, and whose facial features summon to mind statues of Renaissance Masters. They could be the product of a Chapter whose process is painstaking and driven toward producing a warrior worthy of the Emperor's perfect genetic material.
> 
> ...


Oh, so much this.

And I would add that, by my humble social and psychologycal study, I've learned human psyche is a tricky things that always find a way to express itself. If it does not, people tend to die from despair or psychosomatic illness and I wouldn't be surprised that many aspirant die partly because they aren't able to reconcile their conditionning with their own mind.

Sure, SM are fanatics, and are inured to fear, but if they were just blood thirsty killer waiting for next battle, they wouldn't be taking the falling of their brethren so harshly. In the same vein, the CSM wouldn't have been fallen at all. 

SM, at least in BL but also in game fluff, have shown individuality, intellectual curiosity, compassion, various level of aggressivity and ambition. They can understand other human, but only so far as their restructured and somewhat stunted psyche permit them.

It's quite like a human understanding a dog or a cat. We understand their basic need, and even some of their emotion, but we cannot truly comprehend their psyche.

Surely, some Astartes are quite more savage than others, depending on their world of origin and the culture of ther chapter, but hack ! Even the World Eaters pre-heresy showed some signs of brotherhood between them. Event these stone cold heated killer had some culture. To truly appreciate a culture, you must have a sense of aesthetic, a sense of purpose, a sense of what is right and wrong and the empathy necessary to be willing to share it with other peoples.

So yeah, psychologcally speaking, SM are still very human, but only in some aspect.

That was my 2 cents.


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