# Hexwraiths more broken then first thought.



## stalarious

Ok so I have been looking through the armybook a little closer since I was wrong on the direwolf and miss read the spell that lets them move but here is a idea I wanna ask.


Hex wraiths have soulstride the can move through unengaged enemy units and cause a str5 hit with no armor sv's per base that goes through said unit(now it is only one unit that will get the hit) this only works during the remaining movement phase. NOW our first spell lets you move a unit 8" during the magic phase as if it moves in the remaining movement phase so my question is this.

hex wraiths move through a unit will say causing 3 hits then magic phase get Vanhals dance off move them back through the unit causing another 3 hits. Have another caster do same spell on same unit do it again am i reading this right is this a possible combo?


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## bitsandkits

these hexwraiths you speak of, which 40k army do they belong to then?


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## stalarious

their a fantasy army



EDIT: No sleep has made me do something stupid. MOD can you please transfer this to general warhammer please!


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## Barnster

The Spectral hunters rule specifies that regardless of the number of units they pass through you choose 1

I honestly can't see you being able do it twice

you also cannot have the same spell multiple times unless you take both mannfred and kemmler with loremaster


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## Sworn Radical

You certainly can move your Hexwraiths through a unit during the magic phase via _Vanhel's Danse Macabre_, but the _Spectral Hunters_ rule actually clarifies that it *only applies* during the Remaining Moves sub-phase, not the magic phase. So, no additional damage would be done.
_Vanhel's _also specifies that the movement gained by casting the spell merely happens *like* a move made in the Remaining Moves phase, but this does not make it one (The wording is: _'in the same way ...'_).

The actual _Remaining Moves_ phase and the_ Magic Phase _are two different things.
Just my take on it though.


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## olderplayer

The Book of Arkan allows one to potential cast Danse twice in one magic phase. Interesting point on the rules, I have to look into it. I've heard play-testing is revealing hexwraiths are awfully expensive because a magic missile or magic shooting kills them pretty fast for their points costs. Also, they cannot march if not within range of general even if fast cav.


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## stalarious

But you gottta remember that the dance moves your unit as if it was in the remaining movement phase which would mean that hexwraiths should be able to do there ability again at least this is how I read it.


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## stalarious

@olderplayer true but the range of the spell can go out to 18" which is most of the board if you put your general at the line of the deployment and dependign on the scenario you may not have to worry about that to much either.


EDIT:saving posting room

you could hide the hexwraiths behind a line and if my understanding is correct have them move ahead of your units during the movement phase marching because they are within the General bubble then during the magic phase have them go through enemy units the do charge denial.


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## experiment 626

It will likely eventually be faq'd that they can't inflict through vanhel's as they're ment to cause those hits during the movement phase.

And besides, hexwraiths are not like fanatics or other effects that can hit and then 'bounce through' an enemy unit!
If you don't have the movement range to cleanly exit out the opposide end of the unit you're intending to move through AND finish your move 1" away, you cannot inflict those auto-hits! 8" is honestly rather short when you're considering the restrictions of their hunting rules.

They're not broke at all, if anything they're probably slightly overcosted for what they'll do in-game because their effects are so monstrously evil!
Use them to pretty much auto-remove threats like enemy fast cav, warbeasts, skirmishers, war machines, lone medium monsters (such as a vargulf or great eagle) and/or small elite heavy cavalry units like chaos knights. Ranked units can be delt with in other ways.


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## stalarious

Well the thing is they can clip units they deal hits equal to the amount of bases they have pass throught the enemy unit and with a free reform at the end its not all that hard to have alot of hits and be 1" away.

As for the broken comment on the title I meant it as it shocked me that this idea as of right now works (atleast in my head) I mean a few FREE str5 hits with NO armor sv's is good it would mean chaos warriors would only have their ward sv's which is cool imo but this is all paper tactics I have yet to see if it works I wanted to post my idea first.


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## Tim/Steve

Screamers have S5 flaming hits for flying over a unit, can march 20" a turn and still aren't considered that good.

I don't think I'll ever see this unit if they are as bad as I think they are: sure they would annoy me with the type of armies I run... but the vast majority of people out there would just laugh at them and either ignore them or just magic them to pieces.


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## Stephen_Newman

Tim/Steve said:


> Screamers have S5 flaming hits for flying over a unit, can march 20" a turn and still aren't considered that good.
> 
> I don't think I'll ever see this unit if they are as bad as I think they are: sure they would annoy me with the type of armies I run... but the vast majority of people out there would just laugh at them and either ignore them or just magic them to pieces.


True that. I play Plague Skaven and you are more than welcome to kill 4 or even 5 men of a 60 man unit. The rest really won't care. Then I shall either sic some Censer Bearers, get my Plagueclaws to shoot magical goop on you, fry you with magical cannon attacks or just magically toughness test you to death. Any solution is fine for me.


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## stalarious

OK i was talking to my fellow gamers here we all agree that their are armies that you dont try this trick with mainly any horde army it would be pointless but a elite high point army it could work out.(I.E warriors of chaos, High Elves, Wood Elves) things with expensive units.


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## Tim/Steve

You have to remember that 90% of the people on heresy will not vary their armies depending on who/what they are playing against... so a unit that doesn't work against certain armies is considered fairly rubbish.

As for WoC, HE and WE... those are 3 of the best 4 armies for dealing with ethereal units:
WoC- almost alway have a lv4 tzeentch powerhouse with offensive magic galore.
HE- similar to WoC in that they'll almost always have a nasty Lv4 archmage but will probably also have a unit with amulet of light... god help you if its on archers.
WE- all forest spirits have magical attacks and all characters can take sprites which are also magical. Personally I almost always take a hail of doom, which would make me smile if there is an ethereal unit on the table.

Ethereal units scare the hell out of me in general, but then I've played against them with my ogres far too often with nothing but 1-2 magic weapons, a 2D6 S2 magic missile and bugger all SCR... but if I've taken any other army they aren't much of a bugger. Equally I think empire and beastmen may be annoyed by them, but most others can deal with them... and if you can hurt them the low T, no save and expensive cost really can help turn the game.


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## Farseer Darvaleth

*sigh* VC finally get thrown a bone after 8th ed stuffed us down the toilet, and people are making threads discussing their broken-edness...

As Tim/Steve explained, this is just the whole "zomg new army it's so broke" thing and not "having played the army many times, using different armies and scenarios, I can firmly conclude X is under-costed". Screamers have a similar effect and they can fly, but is anybody making threads about that? No? Why not? Because the book isn't new, perhaps?

I'm wasting my breath, though; once people actually get a game in they will realise that Phil Kelly knows what he's on about.


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## experiment 626

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> *sigh* VC finally get thrown a bone after 8th ed stuffed us down the toilet, and people are making threads discussing their broken-edness...
> 
> As Tim/Steve explained, this is just the whole "zomg new army it's so broke" thing and not "having played the army many times, using different armies and scenarios, I can firmly conclude X is under-costed". Screamers have a similar effect and they can fly, but is anybody making threads about that? No? Why not? Because the book isn't new, perhaps?
> 
> I'm wasting my breath, though; once people actually get a game in they will realise that Phil Kelly knows what he's on about.


+1,000,000 this!

People need to stop and remember that the name on our book is the same name that's on WoC, Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, SW's. I think out of all those books, the only big complaints are the continuous and age-old SW's hate-on, venom spam, and 8th ed itself making chosen utterly insane!

The 'ethereal cheese' everyone is blathering on about will come from hyper-competitive types abusing 3x 1 spirit host bases as cheap deployment drops and monster/small elite unit sans magic attacks tarpits.
And even these aren't all that nasty - just take a Lore of Fire or better yet, a Lore of Light wizard when its an option and those ethereals will go poof!



Tim/Steven: It sounds like your ogres could do with a firebelly and/or converting those new crypt horrors/vaghiests into yetees for added magical attack sources!
Apparently VC's are broken because of all our ethereals...


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## stalarious

OK guys/gals I dont know which you guys are I am not saying broken as in they are OP thats not fair being a newish player I am saying its broken to my thinking because I see this as awesome not throwing in the towel saying they are not fair. Overall the new VC book is balanced and a good army.

The armies I have read/played against WOC HE WE Orc's thats it so my field of view on the game is limited but the new models add new tricks to the VC we didnt have before and it has "broken" the traditional sine of how I would want to run VC. Maybe I screwed up when I posted the title like I did because it was not my intent to make them sound OP because in fact their not.


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## Tim/Steve

experiment 626 said:


> Tim/Steven: It sounds like your ogres could do with a firebelly and/or converting those new crypt horrors/vaghiests into yetees for added magical attack sources!
> Apparently VC's are broken because of all our ethereals...


It sounds like you've had about as long a look at the ogre book as you have had at my name.
Forcing ogres into being able to oppose ethereal units seriously compromises them against all other enemies... I'm prepared to struggle through a few games against VC rather then struggle through every other game.


I don't think ethereal units are very good: many armies out there can just mush them without trying so I don't think they are worth taking in any great numbers. I even enjoy fighting against an army with a handful of ethereal models with armies that can't just crush them... where I get annoyed is facing armies that I consider to be pretty badly designed but with an army that just can't do anything about it.
Then again I've had bad experiences: worst was when I had agreed to a game against a new bloke at our FLGS (I'm just about the friendliest gamer there and am willing to game anyone who walks int he door) but upon hearing that I'm using ogres he whips out a massively ethereal list. I just deployed, ran straight at him and suicided my army- game was over in 10 mins. Oddly he couldn't find anyone else willing to play him and he stopped coming down altogether shortly afterwards.


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## stalarious

That sucks see me I wouldnt do something like that I hate building lists that are only good if you fight this or that army. I believe that it is a whole lot more exciting to try and build a all comers list and get surpised by what your opponent brings to the table. 


Now for a ethereal unit I would bring one as a harassment unit hitting your important units or warmachines, then going after your general (because in my think) their by stopping your toughest unit for a turn maybe two.

I have also thought of taking a etheral unit as a "bodyguard" unit for my general but I havent thought that through all the way yet.


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## sybarite

ok on Hexwraiths, 

l have had a few games with them and l find they do well vs most armies. (love the poor dwarf players who can not do much to stop them.)

l find its better to have them hide behind a unit to block LoS for the 1st few turns then move past your own guys to do the damage by the 3rd turn at the latest. They are also good flank guard for your main unit.

overall they are very good and have not let me down yet. *However* if you place them on the board and think they will kill everything and are broken, then your in for a world of pain.


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## KarnalBloodfist

sybarite said:


> love the poor dwarf players who can not do much to stop them.


I'm surprised that you haven't taken a good amount of damage from a runed up grudge thrower or 2 as their attacks are then considered magical. Granted, not the most accurate way of dealing w/ them, but GTs w/ the right runes are a bit more accurate than the average stone thrower.


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## Tim/Steve

Cheaper and easier option is to just fire a couple of runed bolt throwers at them... IMO a good dwarven gunline should have a couple of bolt throwers with either flaming or +1S. S7 bolt throwers are actually pretty solid and who doesn't love a quick pincushion to rob a whole unit of regen prior to slamming it with thunderers/organ guns/etc... and you get to kill a couple of wraith or other ethereal stuff as a bonus.


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## ExtraCrew

Does giving a magic banner that adds an effect to the units weapon make them magical? Like Banner of eternal flame?


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## ultor

ExtraCrew said:


> Does giving a magic banner that adds an effect to the units weapon make them magical? Like Banner of eternal flame?


No it doesn't. It just makes them flaming attacks


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## Tim/Steve

Magical attacks:

Magic
Magic Weapons
ethereals/daemons/forest spirits
dwarves with runes on their weapon/gun/artillery piece
yhetees
Chaos Knights with enchanted weapons
HE in a unit with amulet of light
augment spells- flaming sword of rhuin, enchanted blades of aiban

... and a few other random abilities/items for specific armies (such as venom of the firefly frog for lizards), I also expect I'll have missed a few.


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## Brother Ultor

Ok,regardless of their single attack,30 point cost,vulnerability to magic missiles or 5-10 unit size...Should you ever buy a couple of Black Knights/Hexwraiths boxes,consider this simple conversion work:

-cut the heads of the skeletal horses
-cut the riders off at the torso
-cut off the rider`s heads (optional)
-attach the torso to the horse`s neck joint to form a centaur like thingie
-attach the skeletal horse heads to the rider`s neck...

...look familliar? :grin: (+1 to whomever "gets it") I know I will make a few of these.


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## stalarious

OK....You got me stumped Ultor for some reason that comment gives me a "Army of darkness" feeling but that is the only thing I can think of.


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## Brother Ultor

^^ Nobody here plays Warmachine? 











like this,but with a skeletal horse head (if you wish,or regular human skull)

In other news,still waiting for a Vampire Counts armybook that contains a headless Wight horseman hero,for character-killing purposes (Sleepy Hollow style).Man,that would be so cool...


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## stalarious

What faction is that model from I play trollbloods against warmachine but I have never seen that guy


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## Brother Ultor

Cryx Soulhunters.They come with human or horse skeletal heads.Armed with scythes and sickles.Easy to make some using Hexwraith parts.


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