# Why are Rhinos crap?



## Trigger (Mar 12, 2008)

Why?
They are designed to carry the Emporers finest into battle, yet a planetery PDF would get a better armed and armoured transport. They aren't fast, and carry less troops. Cheap and cheerful, OK, but crap.
My question is; Should Space Marines get the option of a better transport?
What should it be?


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

i think rhinos are awesome. but i would prefer a different transport maybe more armored, 1 hatch to get out of.

1 speeder transport ect ect


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## Zeldrin (Feb 23, 2008)

Personally, I don't think they should get another transport (and I do play them). It is one of few weaknesses present in the marine list. Even then, a rhino for 35 points basic; hell, you would pay more for a skoda to transport your marines in. Mobile coffin or not, it is great value. They already have one of the best non dedicated transport in the game (landraider) and you can't get much tougher than that. An intermdiate option would be nice (if you play them) but would make them way too hard to beat. 

Zeldrin


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

..cough, cough, Warhammer *Fantasy Battle*, cough cough...


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## Rindaris (Mar 17, 2008)

You have to see things as being relative.

Rhinos arn't crap. Not logically anyways... in play.. .sure.. .but in logic, no.

Marines are BIG. Its why some people do Truescale conversions. So when you consider that a rhino can hold 10 of these supermen with all their gear.. thats ALOT of space.

Also have to consider that weaponry seems to have kept up with the ages better then armor has. So while the rhino is a tough little tank... all those weapons on the battlefield are tougher. 

Currently I don't field any rhinos... cause I play a shooty marine army.. and just don't find them that useful... so I know what you mean.


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## Morgal (Sep 26, 2007)

fluff wise they should all be in land raiders why would you put your best most expensive troops in something cheep.

for cheep bulk transport give tot he guard.


game wise they are fine.


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## Trigger (Mar 12, 2008)

Yeah, I'm sure I started this in 40K fluff. Surely I'm not that stupid? (don't answer that) I will blame that on the computer (can't stick up for itself)
Thats why this is in fluff, they work OK in game terms, and marines don't need anything more powerful in a game. But come on . These are the Elite of the Imperium, the creme de la creme, and they ride around in a cardboard box on tracks. Why wouldn't the Imperium update and improve the Rhino. The Mechanicus do it with Leman Russ variants.


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## revenant13 (Feb 15, 2008)

money? power? who knows, ever since the Emperor was attatched to the golden throne the imperium has been ruled by power hungry and greedy people, who would do anything for an extra buck or 2. Granted I dont know if its the same case with mars, but at this point in time it wouldnt be difficult to influence a few people. that and they have lost a lot of STC templates and so cant really make anything better. and itd be way too expensive to make land raiders en masse.


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Trigger said:


> Why?
> They are designed to carry the Emporers finest into battle, yet a planetery PDF would get a better armed and armoured transport. They aren't fast, and carry less troops. Cheap and cheerful, OK, but crap.
> My question is; Should Space Marines get the option of a better transport?
> What should it be?


Yah man, if only Space Marines had some sort of transport that could carry them safely to any part of the board without fear of being shot prior to arriving and didn't have to worry about being randomly destroyed by enroaching on enemy territory and was so cool if could even carry vehicles... wouldn't that be sweet...:grin:


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

its more about tradition i think the marines haven't changed much since the emporers times so why would they have different vehicles whereas the guard are not as strict what the munitorium give they get so although the stcs dont change some level of innovation can be expected to deal with different situations to aid survival marines don't need innovation how they react to different situations is laid out in codex astartes and determined by roboute gulliman. added to this the fact that marines are super human and have exeptional armour in the fluff able to withstand most weaponry why would they need the extra armour on their self repairing tanks


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## Alexander_67 (May 5, 2007)

I have 4 in my army and an immolator so i know how much they explode. Heavy bolters can torch their armour. Hell a big guy can smack em up too. But quite frankly i'm ok with that. Them being weak in game balances out the fact that riding within are bolter weilding crazy armour saving marines who like killing things. Also the fact that they are cheap and weak amroured means i have no qualms about using them to block LoS to things i actually care about. 

If there was another more armoured choice it would have to be seriously expensive points wise to further enhance the balance.


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## Trigger (Mar 12, 2008)

"Yah man, if only Space Marines had some sort of transport that could carry them safely to any part of the board without fear of being shot prior to arriving and didn't have to worry about being randomly destroyed by enroaching on enemy territory and was so cool if could even carry vehicles... wouldn't that be sweet..."
They can carry the Land Raider and cardboard boxes on tracks. So they fly down in this fantastic, heatsheilded gunship, release the clamps, and...... Drive for 5 yards and blow up. Brilliant.

I just think this has snuck up on GW when the rules changed from 2nd ed. And now they can't change it


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Trigger said:


> They can carry the Land Raider and cardboard boxes on tracks. So they fly down in this fantastic, heatsheilded gunship, release the clamps, and...... Drive for 5 yards and blow up. Brilliant.
> 
> I just think this has snuck up on GW when the rules changed from 2nd ed. And now they can't change it


Le Sigh... Space Marines have Drop Pods buddy. Save the Monolith, it's the best deployment method any army has whatsoever. 

Once 5th rolls around Rhinos won't be the rolling coffins they are now. Under then, you'll just have to "live" with the Drop Pods.


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## Trigger (Mar 12, 2008)

I'm not moaning about the gameplay aspect Rev.


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Trigger said:


> I'm not moaning about the gameplay aspect Rev.


Well I didn't know that! /cry... stop yelling at me!!! /quiver



But to answer your question, Rhinos are the Ak-47's of the Imperium. While a dated design, it still remains so simple, cheap and efficient that there hasn't been a need to design something else given the relative technologies that it combats on a daily basis. 

Take this for example. I have a steel rod and you have a steel rod. You develop a steel sword. Technologically you might be one step ahead of me, but I still have a steel rod which steel works just as well, plus it's cheaper for me to make, I don't have to worry about additional maintanence to a blade.

Plus all things considered, the Imperium is to busy indoctrinating it's populace to worship the Emporer and maintain what little control it has over it's own territories and resources. Why expend the additional requirements to the design and development in a new transport when there's nothing wrong with the first one? If it ain't broke...


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## Trigger (Mar 12, 2008)

Ha ha ha!!. I just wanted some fluff thats all!


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## Vanchet (Feb 28, 2008)

TBH I have found the Rhino to be incredibly useful ^^ (I had one special Rhino which has killed a BA dreadnought and a ork wartruk ^^) also I have had space marine units which possibly could've never reached their point without the Rhino being there for them ^^.


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## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

i think the rhine should be at least 12 11 10, maybe even 12 12 10


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## whocares (Jan 11, 2008)

Trigger said:


> Why?
> They are designed to carry the Emporers finest into battle, yet a planetery PDF would get a better armed and armoured transport. They aren't fast, and carry less troops. Cheap and cheerful, OK, but crap.
> My question is; Should Space Marines get the option of a better transport?
> What should it be?


The problem isn't with rhinos, but with transports in general getting nerfed in the switch from third to fourth. Between third to fourth: transports became non-scoring units, you were no longer able to assault from transports, troops were entangled when their transport was destroyed, and transports became more deadly to their passengers.

Granted, in third they were a bit over powered but GW went way over the top. Rhino rush armies were a problem but, honestly, there were certain armies that a rhino rush simple couldn't beat. The problem is that these were not necessarily the most popular armies. (Read also: Dark Eldar played correctly) So GW added the entangled rules and the rule that said you could no longer assault from transports. But either ONE of these rules would have stopped rhino rush dead in its tracks. Both was just over doing it.

Now let's look at the fact that transports are no longer scoring units. This is a good thing, because dropping the squad off at one objective and having the rhino run over last turn to another one was a bit ridiculous. However, making them completely non-scoring was a bit too far. Let's say, for example, that you are playing gamma take and hold. You get your ten man space marine squad within twelve inches of the center along with the rhino it came in. The ten marines are 150 points and the rhino is 50, making that troops selection a total of 200. But you only get 150 points for the squad being on the objective. I think, for the purposes of victory points and objectives, transports should count, but only if they are located on the same objective as the unit they carried. The same would obviously apply to gamma recon, or take and hold. And the worst is omega seek and destroy since you get bonus points for every scoring unit you have at the end of the game. So, if you played omega seek and destroy and you took a transport and your opponent did not and by some divine fluke neither of you caused a single casualty the entire game, your opponent would win because he took no transports. Having a rhino in omega seek and destroy is essentially like starting the game with fifty less victory points than your opponent.

And the reason that the rhino stands out is because it is the most basic transport in the game. Under third that actually made it one of the most efficient and economical transports, but now it pales in comparison to those of other races. Take for example dark eldar and orks who have fast opened topped skimmers, immune to the no assaulting rule. Tau and Eldar vehicles which are nigh unkillable with their new upgrades and the stupid skimmer rule. And the superiorly armed chimera which, although equally mobile to a rhino is less effected by the no assault and the entangled rules because, after all, how close do you want your guardsmen, anyway?

I don't think space marines need a better transport, I think transports need better rules.


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

I think that was the most eloquent post you've ever done, whocares. Bonus rep for a coherent thought!


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## heliosmj12 (Mar 30, 2008)

they are not fast? Its no one but your own fault for not choosing BAs who have Over charged engines fool.


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

Trigger said:


> Ha ha ha!!. I just wanted some fluff thats all!


Rhinos are just good enough that they can be modded out into all of those obnoxious tanks like the predators, vindicators, whirlwinds, etc. 

What more can you ask of a tank which looks like a shoebox?


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

i used 2 rhinos the other day 2 packs of blood claws in them led by wolf guard

i moved them forward made a v shape and disembarked my troops

one of the tanks rear was at the edge of a terrain piece the other was not in LOS of any shooting orks.

his ork bikers charged my tank and blew it up

i took 1 casualty so did he >_<

he would of lost more if he went through terrain to get me and he couldn't reach the other side. in next round i shot then assaulted him all that was left was is nob and he ran


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## lightmonkey (Apr 1, 2008)

like all units they have there uses and if you miss use thme, it will cost you. Also nice with the flying V, its a sure winner. ^^


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## dark_angel (May 28, 2008)

i use combat squads, so i have a razorback, more points for more firepower


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

sorry but how do you define ' crap ' , do you want a rhino to be untouchable , and devastate entire enemy units in a single turn? well when you put it that way , yes it is crap, however it does its job, it transports around 10 marines ( not sure on exact no. ) if you want a mega killer + little bit of transporting then get a LR


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

When you stop and consider it, Rhinos actually are pretty tough APCs. In the game, perhaps not, but traditionally, personnel carriers aren't the most heavily armored things ever. They're not meant to do any heavy lifting whatsoever, just make it possible to move squads from point to point in shorter time frames. Other races' APCs aren't really APCs at all... the Chimera, Immolator, Devilfish, and Wave Serpent all are AFVs-- they're meant to participate in the fighting in more than a transport capacity. 

A Land Raider is a siege weapon-- it's the 41st Millenium's equivalent of a siege tower and battering ram all rolled into one. Its sole purpose is to provide an armored strongpoint that has the strength to punch through a fortified position. It's purpose isn't to drive a squad of grunts around, by any means. The advantage it has in its role as a siege weapon over a Vindicator is that it's able to disgorge troops directly into the breach it creates.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

well no but the added purpose is to drive your prized troops , like termies around so they dont get shot add. the way i view it is a land raider is a small transport, driving elites, characters etc with one hell of a bite


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## 1flip1 (Jun 5, 2008)

maby they should make use of phsycic powers like a force field or sumthin smarted just an idea :grin:


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## jakkie (Dec 21, 2007)

Mad King George said:


> i used 2 rhinos the other day 2 packs of blood claws in them led by wolf guard
> 
> i moved them forward made a v shape and disembarked my troops


sorry, but HTH did you get 2 rhinos in a V shape? Thats a mathematical impossibility.

I tink that the Rhinos should get upgrades like the Ork vehicles - extra armour/turbo chargers/bolt-on storm bolters etc. that would make them chap and crap(ish) or more expensive and pretty good. it also means you can customise and change them to suit your needs.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Rhinos- Making Wartrukks look good since 2nd Edition. 

But consider-

They're ludicrously cheap to field, and act like terrain a good deal of the time. Yeah, they're not even able to stand up to dedicated Heavy Bolter Fire- but think about it- You can bring enough that some of them will drop their payload- and then become mobile terrain.

Because what imbecile would waste shots on an empty Rhino?

(Well, I would, but I play Orks...)


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

Trigger said:


> Should Space Marines get the option of a better transport?
> What should it be?


I'd think it'd be something big, with twin-linked Lascannons and a TL Heavy Bolter. Maybe 14 armor all around, for protection, and it'd have a big drop ramp in the front. If ONLY there were such a transport. Perhaps it would cost 55USD.

lol! Anyways, I think that the Adeptus Mechanicus is counting on power armor to protect the marines. The Rhino's armor is basically a wall. Just something to keep the Marines inside until they hit the drop-off.

-Dirge


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## Kommisar Steiner (Jun 15, 2008)

Because we got Landraider and if that is not enugh go a get a thunderhawk!!!


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

are u suggesting that u would prefer wating ur points on a more powerful transport vehicle. I personally dont see wot eople are on about, a rhino costs don't post points costs! -TSOHand its power represents that, I would hate having to transport my thousand sons in a massive transport that costs a lot of points, and this is because rhinos are fine for transporting troops acroos the battlefeild, providing moveable terrain and then when destroyed providing cover for troops


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

Rhinos are sweet, very good for Rhinos rushing and good to help people get objectives


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

A V can be made by putting the left front corner of one Rhino so that it touches the right front corner of another, and that be the only point of contact between the two. Essentially, there's a zone that's blocked from all hostile lines of fire by the two Rhinos for units to disembark. The tradeoff there is that the disembarking units aren't shooting anything that turn, but if they're Blood Claws, that's not as big a loss.


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## jakkie (Dec 21, 2007)

hmm, not what id really call a V formation. sounds more like two drunk SMs driving their Rhinos at each other.


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## chaos vince (Jun 10, 2008)

personaly i hate rhino's. then again if all you're lookin for is a gaaah! don't post points!!-TSOHpoint piece of mobile terrain then they're a great buy. in a 2000pt tournament yesterday i ended up playing against three marine armies, each with at least 3 rhinos(salamanders, ultra marines, and space wolves) the salamanders had 4 backed up by three dev squads and a nasty command squad. the space wolves did the best and only one rhino survived and still lost by more than 500 points. i just figure that any thing that can die to one s6 shot and potentialy kill some of the troops ridin in it as well as entangling them so that their sittin ducks for the guns that blew their tank out from under them isn't much worth the points. then again i'm lookin at it from a chaos point of view where i can lay down 20 man squads of marines, so i guess the extra bodies outweigh the transports in my mind


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Thing is, the Rhino is perfectly good for protecting the Marines from small arms fire. Instead of taking bolter/lasgun/shoota/slugga/devourer fire on marines (three of whom easily cost more than the vehicle), they get to ride a little ways.

Even is they DO get entangled, why are you crying? You've got the eye-bleedingly good armor save to keep you alive for the turn....


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

I agree with cole. They're cheap so you're not investing too heavily on them, they do their job of transport and cover, and used properly they can easily make back their points.
Take one for a tac. squad, don't transport them and have it moving up the field with any other vehicles. The enemy will either shoot at them and waste a turn not firing at the big stuff or ignore them because they're empty and have units tank shocked off the board. there are a lot more ways to use them than as a transport and a defense.....


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## rgw (Jan 29, 2008)

I think "Rhino's are crap" because we take them, expecting them to last the game like a tank, but at 35 points, no weapons, and light armor, it's the first model in my army that I'd want to sacrifice. Therefore they get the rep of becoming terrain.

"Yeah the Rhino blew up, but you spent a turn shooting at it"


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## chaos vince (Jun 10, 2008)

i wasn't 'crying' about rhinos, just explaining why i don't find them to be particulary usefull units. considering that i only own three out of 16,000 points worth of chaos marines my opinions are clear. IF you get first turn thats 12' of movement, followed by a high likelyhood of that rhino meeting a unfortunate end at the hands of missiles, lascannons, plasma weapons, or various other unpleasentness all of which my eye-bleedingly good armor saveis useless against and leaving me in range for even more fire. as to walking through fire, any horde army player worth his models uses little things like cover and deployement to mininmize the time he spends exposed to enamy fire until he's in range to do unto the enamybefore the enamy does unto him. seeing as how chaos can have 20 men squads all with eye-bleedingly good armor saves i rarely take enough casualties to offset the lack of rhinos. why would i want one tank that limits my squad size, dies easy, can't kill a tank unless you spend more points, and leaves my troops exposed to heavy weapons, as opposed to say a marine with a plasma gun who can't be picked out with one shot, CAN kill a tank,and doesn't comprimise the rest of the sqaud or a terminator who is plain murder in cc and tough as nails. for that matter for the same points an icon of khorn can give an ENTIRE squad an extra attack, increasing it's effective cc ability by 50% of the original. that said there are plenty of tactics which make rhino's valuable to marines and can make rhinos effective units. they just aren't of enough comparitive valuable to justify them in my opinion


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

chaos vince said:


> i wasn't 'crying' about rhinos


Psst... hey... guess what...

Not everything is directed at you.

For Chaos, they are indeed less useful than bringing more Marines.

Loyalists, however, cap out at ten models, so it's not quite the waste it is for Chaos, savvy?


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

For Thousand Sons they are not terrible, they are not good, they are lifesavers and very neccassary. And if you look at my main army u will see that I love Rhinos


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

They are definitely a more viable option for loyalists due to the squad limit but I agree with Zondarian here. the basic CSM they're not as good for due to their large sizes but for specialised squads that are expensive they are helpful as they allow faster movement and some more protection than normal. And rhinos aren't to be left out in the open for everyone to shoot at as they are light vehicles. Use cover with them all the time and they will get your men up there quickly


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## chaos vince (Jun 10, 2008)

i definately agree with using terrain to screen rhinos and that they are more usefull to loyalists, but as far as using them with thousand sons, well the sons are slow and purposefull and rock hard with that 4+ invul so i'd rather have big units advancing and laying down fire the whole way. getting them clse enought to rapid fire is nice but it also puts them in range to get charged, and every turn they're tied up in cc is a turn they're not shooting with those lovely ap3 bolters


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

*Shrug.*
I'd as soon use a Land Raider...
I don't find Rhinos to be worth much personally, and I think GW has done what it can to make sure more people buy them with some of the 5th edition rules...


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

no u need rhinos to capture objectives and get into battle before being shot be peices. If u need further prove as wraithlord and hell agree that they are a must for thousand sons. Slow and proposeful isnt really a problem if you roll a 5+ but it really slows down your army and gets them shot to peices if any lower than that. And that is why a Thousands Sons army must have rhinos


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

are the rumors for making a vehicle that's between the rhino chassis and the land raider chassis true? I heard it a few times but that's it.
And of course they wouldn't make SM and CSM transports very good-They're SPACE MARINES! That kinda makes up for it:biggrin:


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## arhain (May 6, 2008)

i want rhinos to have av 14 all round
have like 7 las cannons that can become assualt cannon if i want them to
to move at 180" and still fire everything
always glances 
6+ to hit
can carry 100 guys
has 9 plasmon cannons
can carry other tanks
can fire drop pods
can fight in assult with 10 str 10 attacks that ignore everything
auto repairs on a 2+
is a skimmer 
can caputre/contest every objective on the map
has 50 guns that fire a str D 50" blast
has the entire grey knight company in it 
has a havoc launcher and a hunter killer missle on it:shok:
contains the cure for cancer
is $5
has a portable t.v. built into it
can fly
has a dragon wings
and is 35 pts


in other words a battle bardge:mrgreen:


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## Imperial Dragon (Dec 22, 2007)

rhinos are real handy when fighting nids or other arimes that are S3 they can't punch into the tank and they can block LoS sometimes and make your units stay away from combat so they can shoot some more and stop them from being charged, i'm always shocked if my rhino can pass 1 turn of my opps shooting phase.


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## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

I disagree, rhinos are not crap. For a small amount of points you get a transport which makes it possible to move a unit in it 12" and then disembark thats 2 movement phases in one. Also once the unit disembarks you can use the Rhino as a piece of moveable size 3 impassible terrain to annoy and block line of sight. This tactic has work for me every time.


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## skad567 (Jun 4, 2008)

I completely disagree that rhinos are crap. I have used them with much success and in 5th edition with the cover save for vehicles they have become even better.


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

|So we all agree that despite the name of the thread Rhino's are not crap.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Zondarian said:


> |So we all agree that despite the name of the thread Rhino's are not crap.



No.
We don't agree.


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

well were right and your wrong. and to transport all space marines in land raiders would cost a lot for the imperium and it would mean that IG would stand no chance defeding against renegade chapters


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

He's not wrong and we're not right. It's all about opinion And if his opinion is different to yours that doesn't make Vrykolas2k wrong. I've only started getting good with using rhinos recently So I usen't like them but even if you can use them well there's always a reason to dislike them..... I'd like to know why you dislike them Vryko?


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## arhain (May 6, 2008)

and if you really want a better transport

scracth build a battle bardge:crazy: (those massive flying things:good


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## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

rhinos slow me down and are expensive and can't hold all my guys and I can't assault out of them. plus they always break like eggs from the first shot that hits them. also my squads are too big to hide behind them to prevent them from getting shot.

for me its LRC's, Droppods or nothing. and to be specific, razor backs are even worse, they cost damn near as much as a pred.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Lord Reevan said:


> He's not wrong and we're not right. It's all about opinion And if his opinion is different to yours that doesn't make Vrykolas2k wrong. I've only started getting good with using rhinos recently So I usen't like them but even if you can use them well there's always a reason to dislike them..... I'd like to know why you dislike them Vryko?



It's too flimsy for my tastes; and while I do admit that my Dark Eldar Raiders are also flimsy, they're also fast enough to make up for it.
With my marine squads on foot, I can often use the terrain for cover whilst I move into prime shooting and assaulting positions. And the points that would have been spent on rhinos get spent on things I consider to be more useful, such as dreadnoughts and similar...


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Vrykolas2k said:


> It's too flimsy for my tastes; and while I do admit that my Dark Eldar Raiders are also flimsy, they're also fast enough to make up for it.
> With my marine squads on foot, I can often use the terrain for cover whilst I move into prime shooting and assaulting positions. And the points that would have been spent on rhinos get spent on things I consider to be more useful, such as dreadnoughts and similar...


I agree with you they are to me the flimsiest transport as other transports that have weaker armour have other abilities to increase their survivabilty or their effectiveness. But they are also very very cheap for an expensive army like SM and CSM so you can't really expect much

At most I'd use 2 with one razorback. 2 tac. squads, one command squad. they'd help keep a constant line with my assault marines advancing. Also I have over charged engines so that does make them a lot better for me.... 

Have you checked Son of Horus's piece about them? It's very helpful for tactics and to use them well.... Check it out coz it might give you some ideas....:good:


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## chaos vince (Jun 10, 2008)

i gotta agree with vrykolas if only from a chaos standpoint. i've never played loyalist marines so honestly i can't form an opinion on their worth for loyalists except based on games i've watched. for chaos rhino's aren't worth the limitations that they put on squad sizes, since in my mind two or three 15 to 20 man squads of cult marines are the perfect troop choices. Thats just my opinion though. some people find marines advancing in ork like hordes profoundly unnatural. i have used rhino's once or twice to add a bit of flexibility abd when they're screened by a montrous creature or 2 they can provide a nasty suprise but for the the limitations that they impose they're just not worth it for chaos


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Lord Reevan said:


> I agree with you they are to me the flimsiest transport as other transports that have weaker armour have other abilities to increase their survivabilty or their effectiveness. But they are also very very cheap for an expensive army like SM and CSM so you can't really expect much
> 
> At most I'd use 2 with one razorback. 2 tac. squads, one command squad. they'd help keep a constant line with my assault marines advancing. Also I have over charged engines so that does make them a lot better for me....
> 
> Have you checked Son of Horus's piece about them? It's very helpful for tactics and to use them well.... Check it out coz it might give you some ideas....:good:



LOL.
Thanx for nae sharing the, "We're right and you're wrong, nyah nyah nyah!" stance.
I just dont find the things useful. And fluff-wise, as many as I've blown up with my various armies, I don't see how any of them could be thousands of years old...


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Don't mention it. I enjoy seeing as many views on a subject as possible and dislike having people undermine that opinion.
"I do not agree with what you say but I will fight to the death for your right to say it"-Voltaire I believe.... and probably not correct but meh

Well going with dreadnoughts only the complete destruction of the vehicle will stop it (not quoted so is different to how its properly worded) So it might be thousands of years old but probably only the steering wheel is.... They still count it as the original..... Silly techmarines


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## ClubnBabySealz (Jun 5, 2008)

Vrykolas2k said:


> LOL.
> Thanx for nae sharing the, "We're right and you're wrong, nyah nyah nyah!" stance.
> I just dont find the things useful. And fluff-wise, as many as I've blown up with my various armies, I don't see how any of them could be thousands of years old...


Isnt that the same thing your doing?? some of us find uses for the rhino. just cus it does not work for u does not mean its wrong. they are just as right as u. its all in how u play.

but back to the first post about the fluff of it, its a transport. not a fighting transport. its like compering a 5-ton to a MRAP. both can carry troops but the MRAP can take a hit as a 5-ton can not.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

ClubnBabySealz said:


> Isnt that the same thing your doing?? some of us find uses for the rhino. just cus it does not work for u does not mean its wrong. they are just as right as u. its all in how u play.
> 
> but back to the first post about the fluff of it, its a transport. not a fighting transport. its like compering a 5-ton to a MRAP. both can carry troops but the MRAP can take a hit as a 5-ton can not.




Not at all.
I discuss why I think I'm right.
I don't inform others that they're wrong (read the posts on the previous page to see what I mean)... unless it comes to some written rule that's been overlooked, mistranslated, and so on...


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## ClubnBabySealz (Jun 5, 2008)

ok i see that now. sorry about that.


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

ClubnBabySealz said:


> but back to the first post about the fluff of it, its a transport. not a fighting transport. its like compering a 5-ton to a MRAP. both can carry troops but the MRAP can take a hit as a 5-ton can not.


Mind that Rhinos, Predators, Immolators and Whirlwinds are all variants of the same vehicle.


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## ClubnBabySealz (Jun 5, 2008)

yes i was just making a small comperason between the 2. you could go more into it with up armor or LSV. but im lazy. so i keep it simple.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

They have the same chassis but have different armour thickness, engines and weapon systems. Same kind of style of having a Subaru Impreza and a WRC Impreza. They use the same overall design but the latter has different materials and is tunerd up to be much more effective....


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## BloodANgels89 (Jun 16, 2008)

Rhinos are amazing. They are low cost moving cover. They screen my blood angels CC units perfectly and block off vital areas on the map from enemies to enter, or are forced to difficult terrain tests. Also, they are normally NEVER targeted in my games, they transport my combat squads up field and the fact i have so manny vet assaults, death company, and baals rolling up, they ignore the rhinos and i love it! 

All in all...rhinos are amazing


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## khorneflake (Jul 11, 2008)

[cough cough] land raiders [cough cough]


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## Imperial Dragon (Dec 22, 2007)

well rhinos are even better i think with 5th ed ramming other tanks is fun. me and my friends are thinking about having a tank bash lol. but all that aside rhinos really ain't ment to do much more then get your troops in CC or atleast closer to the enemy, you should be glad that you don't have ork trukks as your main transport.


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## officer kerky (Jun 12, 2008)

i think rhino's are a waste of points. sure they have armour 11, 11, 10 but they are the emporer's finest warriors who are taken to battle in a steel coffin wity a weak little storm bolter between them and doom from anti tank weapons. eg lasscannons


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## moshpiler (Apr 16, 2009)

well that's why you don't field rhinos on their own. who would waste a lascannon shot on a rhino when there are much bigger threats in your army. the trick is to have a nasty surprise in that "tin box that just happens to move" (death company with sledgehammers :gimmefive. it's all about the context you use them in icknose:


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## Phrazer (Oct 14, 2008)

I never leave home without at least a couple of Tac squads in Rhino's. Its not an either/or thing with drop pods, i use both to keep the enemy guessing. Anyway i dont see how u can compare Rhinos with Land Raiders, 35pt APC Vs 240pt Heavy armour?? Just cos they can both transport doesnt mean they are designed to do the same thing. I couldnt imagin running my SM army without Rhinos, usually ive ony got 1 Tac squad that isnt mounted and thats for my home objective! Other then that... saddle up!!


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## spidie2000 (Nov 21, 2008)

If you have 10 marines in a rhino that explodes, you take 10 str 4 hits with 3 + armor saves. Means by the odds you would lose 1.65 marines. Frankly losing 1 - 2 marines isnt that bad when you compare it to trying to march down the field with plasma cannons and battle cannons out there that can do far more damage to a marine squad.


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## Vanchet (Feb 28, 2008)

spidie2000 said:


> If you have 10 marines in a rhino that explodes, you take 10 str 4 hits with 3 + armor saves. Means by the odds you would lose 1.65 marines. Frankly losing 1 - 2 marines isnt that bad when you compare it to trying to march down the field with plasma cannons and battle cannons out there that can do far more damage to a marine squad.


Actually it's S3
an Rhinos arn't bad at all
Rhinos an Smokies arereally tough


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## Exitus Acta Probat (Apr 23, 2009)

V:
no, transported units take a str 4 hit when inside a 'sploding vehicle.
those affected within the radius of the d6" are hit str 3.


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## Vanchet (Feb 28, 2008)

Exitus Acta Probat said:


> V:
> no, transported units take a str 4 hit when inside a 'sploding vehicle.
> those affected within the radius of the d6" are hit str 3.


Ah okie-Thought it was in general


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## spidie2000 (Nov 21, 2008)

Its STR3 if the vehicle is open topped.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Rhinos aren't crap, not for 35 points, they can provide useful cover to your men, and they're fairly easy to make, useful experience for when you come to larger tanks.


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## hells_fury (Apr 17, 2008)

rhionos are not crap, had one crush a terminator and another make them fail their leadership and flee the game, then the same one that crushed a termie in another game wethered 3 turns of a monolith shooting at it. they are a good reliable tank


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Try playing Witchhunters who are still paying 50pts for one of those buggers.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yeah, rhinos are barely worth that... but with T3 models inside you could say that the transports protection is even more valuable then for marines


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

I agree Tim. To me though, the whole point of them is the ability to move up the board at 12" and get cover where ever you are, then once disenbarked, being able to slow an assault for a turn with a Rhino wall. 

Imagine that for +50 points your troops had jump packs and a cover save once a game. It's not quit that good, but it is decent.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

This is a very odd thread. Originally it was about the understandable misconception of thinking the Chimera is primarily a Transport, like the Rhino, when it is in fact an Infantry Fighting Vehicle with a transport capacity. Then it was mysteriously resurrected...and has become the opinion war that died 9 months ago. As a general rule, units with transports are better than units on foot. This makes Rhinos good, just not necessarily good compared to the other races' alternatives.


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## Lord of Rebirth (Jun 7, 2008)

Fluff whis rhinos are a lot harder but they are a super basic transport made to simply move troops. It would seem more fluffly if they used something more like a Merkava with heavy armour, big guns and troop capacity but they are already pretty hard in game terms and they -do- have the Land Raider.

If the rhino doesn't work for you stop using it. Go over to Land Raiders and enjoy how they eat up points and are fire magnets. Look how the game tries to be fair and how it already is problematic how some armies are larger in numbers. Do you honestly want 2000 point marine to be like 40 marines while Guard armies have to be like 300 guys?


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## KarlFranz40k (Jan 30, 2009)

Rhinos are just great, you honestly cant fault a transport that costs a bit more that a powerfist, and tactically is more usefull.........


.....problem is thats what half the people in this thread seem to be doing.

Really guys, stop wineing "but they're the astartes! They need invincible transports!!!! WAAAHHH!!!!
So what if the IG have some stuff thats better? The squad it transports has far less capabilities than a tac squad.

I love rhinos when I use them, and they frustrate me when used against me. Distracting my fexes and annoying my gaunts while there's lovely power armoured marines to kill.


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## Juiceypoop (Jun 5, 2008)

From a fluff perspective, a more heavilly armoured transport is redundant for space marines, because they wear power armour. Space marines don't want more protection, they want a reliable means of transport that can be repaired with a swift kick in the gear box and some harsh language.


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## Pandorav3 (Jan 30, 2009)

Well The thing about the rhino is that there are two reasons for SM to use it IMO, and since the thread was originally started for the fluff ill go a bit more into that. For game purposes it would make the marines VERY op. For fluff reasons however the SM is supposed to be a fast light assault force able to attack over all sorts of terrain. Therefore it would make sense for their transports to be as light as possible to minimize the weight of the marines, and still keep the transport rolling fast. As for armament, The SM are individually very strong, The transport is a means to an end (fast travel) not really an armored platform. Those chapters that are more based around heavy firepower bring razorbacks. But with 10 insanely heavy soldiers, you need to keep that tank light for it to be very mobile.


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## Abomination (Jul 6, 2008)

When used correctly (and with a bit of luck) they are actually quite useful. The great thing about them really is that they're free and don't take up slots on the old FOC.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Well, cheap but not free (other then for assault squads).

I love my rhinos- 10 blood claws in a rhino is lethal... 12 blood claws on foot aren't nearly so dangerous. Sure they have greater combat potential (and will do better vs otehr assault armies such as orcs) but any time Im attacking they'll take casualities crossing the board (and will do it more slowly).

- I love to rush my rhino forward, spin it 180deg and blow smoke, next turn I charge.. if I cant get that to work then racing up close and flamering the enemy and missing with my bolt pistols (comeon blood claws dont hit anything ) often kills quite a few enemies and only gives 1 turn for return fire to lower my numbers.
Then I have an almost worthless tank mobile near the enemy objective... no-one wants to use resources (or time) to kill it 

"Usless Rhino" Tactics
everyone thinks an empty rhino has dont its job and is useless... they're so wrong

1)- ram it onto an enemy objective, forcing them to kill it before the end of the game or abandon their claim on the objective

2)- Block LOS.. you can block fire lanes and thats good and all but this is best done when your close... really close. I love to drive up to 2-4" in front of an enemy heavy weapons squad, blocking all LOS except to my rhino. Forcing an expensive unit to waste a turn shooting my 35pt rhino or moving round to get a clear shot next turn.

3)- Go tank-shock-happy... enemey got a battle line? Then just drive up and down it at will. Tank shock 4 units a turn and something is gonna break (very few people will death or glory a rhino- anything that can kill it is probably too good to risk losing)
or just ram other light vexs.


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Revelations said:


> Trigger said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not moaning about the gameplay aspect Rev.
> ...


If I remember the Forge World Imperial armour reasoning correctly, the rhino is little more then a glorified exploration craft used by early exploring man as a simple, effective and reliable transport for conversing over the surface of hostile planets. However, its armour and reliability encouraged it to be used as the basic APC. Its simple design also allowed it to be used as a template for many different vehicles (most used by the space marines). Still, the production of rhinos is somewhat about the standard technical capabilities for the average imperium world, so it isn't widely used (by comparison to the even less sophisticated and less reliable chimera). 

Now, the reason the Space Marines don't all go around kicking ass in Land Raiders is that building land raider takes a great deal of technical skill and advanced production facilities. These are almost exclusively found on forge worlds. That makes Land Raiders rare. Before the Horus Heresy, there was once an entire forge world dedicated to creating Land Raiders. This made Land Raiders more common and used by forces other then Astartes. Not surprisingly, it was destroyed during the Heresy. As well, the Emperor feared the loss of these powerful tanks (which were the only tanks the imperium that could reliably be expected to take out titans), so he ordered them only used by Astartes. Still, the tech to build land raiders in mass quantities was lost. The ones built now are built much slower, making them much rarer. Most still in use are very old.


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