# The souls of primarchs



## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

I was reading some fluff on the souls of ordinary humans and the stronger ones who possessed psychic abilities, and so i understood that the souls of weaker and more vulnerable people just drift in the warp with no consciousness with the possibility of being devoured by demons or the chaos gods.
The souls of stronger beings and psykers remain intact as a soul once they perish and what happens to the soul within the warp varies, they could remain hidden and quite or attract the attention of demons and be devoured.

So i was thinking, what most probably happened to the souls of fallen (dead) primarchs? Because it is rumored that all the primarchs had psychic abilities (be it powerful: Magnus , or weaker powers: Corax's "invisibility" ability) so would they appear in the warp as intact souls? And would they be devoured or powerful enough to resist and escape demons?

Also do you think if that was the case would the souls of certain primarchs be tortured more, for instance Khorne taking revenge on Sanguinius's soul, or Chaos devouring Konrad's soul for not following chaos properly and failing (ie:allowing for his death to happen)?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Ooooh, good question. 

I think some rep is in order, for a potentially interesting conversation/thread.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Its really hard to say. Fulgrim's soul was taken from him when he let the Daemon take over him. So in that regard I don't think the souls of Primarchs are anything that special.

What does interest me is the fact that they are supposidly created with the help with the Chaos Gods. If so, it could be possibly that they were created using the warp. Maybe this gives them a slight edge when swimming through the Great Ocean. 

I'd like to think that perhaps something of the Primarchs do live on. Even if it is just their souls. I know ADB frowns upon the idea, but Konrad Curze in the Night Lords novel created before _Soul Hunter_ was hinted into having a artifact that could essentially contain some kind of essence. I'm not sure if its his soul, as I haven't read the book. 

Ferrus Manus, Sanguinus, and in even Horus have artifacts that are still around that could have taken their essence or soul. I hate talking about it cause I know a lot of the fluff fans hate this concept. But because I think about a lot of possibilities in the world of 40K. I imagine this could being something that the authors decides they will do. If so, I could see Ferrus Manus soul being captured in the very hammer he created which now belongs to Perturabo. Sanguinus in his sword or spear. Horus in his talons.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

If the Primarch's souls lived on it would explain the "I'll be back" comments from some of them (Leman Russ comes to mind). Maybe some of them knew they'd be able to come back. It might explain why Mortarion accepted Nurgle cos once you've got Nurgle's rot you turn into a Plaguebearer and so even if Mortarion died his soul was forfeit to Nurgle either way. Possibly Magnus saw the same thing with Tzeentch.

Finally I don't think Fulgrim's soul was taken from him, it was forced into a small corner of him by the daemon. I might be wrong though.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Hmmm, very interesting question, one we unfortunately cannot definitively answer. I would imagine they would all be the latter of the two outcomes you said. All the primarchs had an immense amount of energy in them and like you said many if not all seemingly possessed some form of psychic ability either potent and obvious like Magnus, more subtle like Corax or latent like Lorgar. 

Their souls seemed to be very powerful going by what happened to Ferrus when he was killed:
"Blood and the monumental energies bound within the meat and gristle of one of the Emperor's sons erupted from the wound, and Fulgrim fell back as the searing powers blinded him, dropping the silver sword at his side. He heard a shrieking wail, as of a choir of banshees, whip around him as phantom, skeletal hands clawed at him, and a thousand voices tore at his mind.
Ghostly whirlwinds seized him and spun him around, twisting him like a limp rag in their grip, and threatening to tear him limb from limb in retribution. Even as he welcomed such oblivion, he felt another presence move to protect him, the same presence that had been his constant companion since Laeren, though he had not known it. 
Fulgrim fell to the ground as the winds released him, and faded with a shrieking howl of anguished frustration." 

I knowvits open to your own interpretation, but when I read that, I read it as Ferrus soul leaving/being unleashed from his body. His soul is seemingly so powerful it would have killed Fulgrim in it's death throes had it not been for the deamon. How many other times have you heard of a beings death causing such an effect. As a small side note it could also explain what happened to whoever killed Rogal Dorn on the _Sword of Sacrilage_. Someone, and highly likely many people killed him, yet when his astartes made it onto the bridge everyone was dead, the very same death effect that happened with Ferrus could have happened to him aswell.

So if their souls are so powerful as to have such a devastating effect when they die, I imagine they would definetly intact afterwards. Though what would happen to them I don't know. I imagine even in death they would be a force to be be reckoned with, even then they may be drawn to the Enperors side and protected by him.

Sanguinius is an interesting example aswell. He wasn't just killed, he was brutally slaughtered by Horus, in such a manner that it's cursed the Blood Angels to this day. Obviously this is just speculation, but I imagine his soul would be heavily effected by his death, how I dont know, weaker, stronger, in pieces or in constant agony. Could even maybe his tortured soul that instills the black rage into his gene-sons.

Curze is another similar case, his was a tortured soul from his birth. I imagine his soul would be pretty fucked up aswell, and I sure as he'll wouldn't want to try and fuck with such a twisted soul.

Hours is the one we do know for certain though. It doesn't exist anymore, the Emperor obliterated it when he destroyed Horus.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I've seen the idea put forward, and think it's somewhat true myself, that the Emperor put some of his own soul into each Primarch, along with whatever power from the warp he used. I think that the presence of some small part of the Emperor may have 'sanctified' the souls of the Primarchs. So, in the normal course of things if the Primarch dies, then his soul is immediately claimed by the Emperor as they are both deeply connected. In the case of the Daemon Primarchs, the power of Chaos has corrupted this connection to the Emperor; maybe that's another reason the turning of the Primarchs was such a coup, allowing the Chaos gods to corrupt a small portion of the Emperor's soul?
However, as the OP states, the Primarchs are powerfully psychic, as well as being intimately bound to the warp. If their souls were reclaimed by their father when they died, then it's possible that they are still distinct in the warp, not having been reabsorbed fully. This could be a way in which the Astartes of the Legions and later Chapters could be 'guided' by these figures.

GFP


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Good words, Angel of Blood.

ckcrawford, I agree that the Warp (being the psychic parallel to our material universe) was, more than likely, the stuff from which the Primarchs' souls were forged.

Giant Fossil Penguin, I bet the Primarchs would hope you were right...


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

> I'd like to think that perhaps something of the Primarchs do live on. Even if it is just their souls. I know ADB frowns upon the idea, but Konrad Curze in the Night Lords novel created before Soul Hunter was hinted into having a artifact that could essentially contain some kind of essence. I'm not sure if its his soul, as I haven't read the book.


What novel is this? Are you talking about _Lord of the Night_? I have that novel and it never talked about anything like that. In fact, Curze seemed to accept, if not outright want his impending demise. So I don't think he would actually care about preserving his soul in anyway. Especially given his final words,



> Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication.


Added to his comments to Talos in _Soul Hunter_, it's safe to say that he wanted his death. Also, the only artifact mentioned in the book at any length was the Corona Nox, his crown.

As to the souls, it is a complex issue. It could be possible that the souls of the fallen loyal Primarchs were persevered by the Emperor in some manner, though I would question as to whether Ferrus Manus and Sanguinius would have been saved if the Emperor's means of persevering their souls was something he actively did just before they died. Also, I would assume that any Primarch that has achieved Daemonhood has corrupted their souls to a point where they cannot be rescued. Though Fulgrim is in the gray. His soul could still be enduring after all this time, but it is just as possible that the sheer horror of what he's been subjected to for ten thousand years has broken and twisted his soul beyond any resemblance to what he was.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> What novel is this? Are you talking about _Lord of the Night_? I have that novel and it never talked about anything like that. [snip] Also, the only artifact mentioned in the book at any length was the Corona Nox, his crown.


He is indeed talking about _Lord of the Night_ and is in fact talking about the Corona. The psyker-chick (Misha? or something) feels the Night Lords presence when she is in the presence of the Corona, when Zso wears the crown he feels calmed and the Eldar show a serious amount of interest in the perfect red jewel in the crown. I would say that all signs point to Night Haunter wearing a soulstone on his hat and given that, there is a distinct possibility his soul is still preserved within.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Curze was plagued by terrible visions and fits, and the crown might have acted as a mechanism to soothe his mind.

I have no idea what the crown's gem would be. Maybe it was a soulstone. Does that mean Curze's soul is trapped in it? Perhaps, though I would argue that Curze himself did not intend for this to happen (if, in fact, it did).


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Yeah it "was hinted." But ABD doesn't want to go that direction.

I would say it definitely does hint that the author was trying to depict the soul as a soulstone.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Ferrus Manus said:


> So i was thinking, what most probably happened to the souls of fallen primarchs?


Well, let's clarify what you mean here. Fallen as in the traitors, or fallen as in the slain - loyalist and heretic alike? I think you mean the latter, but I think the two sets of souls would certainly meet different fates. Traitor Primarchs' souls would undoubtedly become the Gods' playthings. Whether they'd be protected or punished for failing, I don't know.

I personally believe the souls of the loyal Primarchs, similar to what GFP said, returned to the Emperor's side (and are now protected by his power, giving some credence to claims of return by Russ and others - whether in the physical plane, or at the final battle to destroy Chaos) or were reabsorbed into the soul of the Emperor himself.

Yes, *you* would be at the Emperor's side! If you're really Ferrus Manus, that is.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

Davidicus 40k said:


> Well, let's clarify what you mean here. Fallen as in the traitors, or fallen as in the slain - loyalist and heretic alike?


I did indeed mean fallen as in slain, ive edited my first post so as not to confuse anyone else :biggrin:

The soulstone idea is interesting idea and it does sound like Konrad's crazy character to have his soul stored in one of his items, but the problem i have with this theory is that all the artifacts belonging to the independent, rightful primarchs (except from maybe the Laer blade) were created at the beginning or either during the crusade but way before the heresy. But the primarchs (apart from Magnus and maybe Lorgar) had no idea of the existence of chaos and the soul before the heresy, let alone what happens to the soul in the warp, so how and why would they create/place "alien" methods (soulstones for instance) of preserving their soul?

The souls of fallen (dead) primarchs being absorbed into the emperors soul and being protected in the warp is also very plausable, but if their souls were to merge with emperor's wouldnt that cause its power within the warp to grow therefore mabye attracting the attention of demons (which would be bad). Also wouldnt the merge "heal" the emperors physical state slightly? or cause the "Star Child" (Emperor's soul) to grow stronger and have a stronger chance of reincarnating (if the Star child is considered as fluff anymore )?

Another thing is that the emperor bargained with the Chaos gods in order to create the primarchs, so its kinda like how to gods use a small part of themselves to create and demons and then reabsorb them, but of course the emperor deceived the gods and kept the primarchs for himself, so do you think it could be that the Gods have a had a missing "part" of themselves the whole time and now finally hunt for the souls of the primarchs to become whole again?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I actually like the idea of Ferrus Manus being trapped in the weapon that represented his closest friendship. Totally my idea of course. You GW bastards better not steal it. :biggrin:


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

The traditor primarch's souls were taken by the chaos god they worship


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Ferrus Manus said:


> IThe soulstone idea is interesting idea and it does sound like Konrad's crazy character to have his soul stored in one of his items, but the problem i have with this theory is that all the artifacts belonging to the independent, rightful primarchs (except from maybe the Laer blade) were created at the beginning or either during the crusade but way before the heresy. But the primarchs (apart from Magnus and maybe Lorgar) had no idea of the existence of chaos and the soul before the heresy, let alone what happens to the soul in the warp, so how and why would they create/place "alien" methods (soulstones for instance) of preserving their soul?


I think it's difficult to say what exactly the primarchs would have known about the soul and the workings of the warp. Certainly none of them were aware of the Dark Gods as Gods but that doesn't mean they couldn't have a pretty decent understanding of some other aspects of the warp. Horus for example understands daemonic possession and warp rifts despite not having any overt psykic ability to draw on. Perhaps Curze learned something in one of his visions that allowed him to acquire, understand and use a soulstone. Perhaps he simply found a random ruby and realized holding made his head feel better. Who can say?

And I also really like the idea of the Primarchs storing parts of their souls in their items. It would make things like the Salamanders quest all the more epic if they were actually reassembling (so to speak) their primarch.



ckcrawford said:


> Yeah it "was hinted." But ABD doesn't want to go that direction.


Sorry but as much as I love ADB's work (which is a *lot*) his vision doesn't rule the entirety of the Night Lords and his plans don't and can't invalidate whats gone before.


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## seb2351 (Oct 11, 2010)

Something I read that might be relevant was in Fulgrim, *SPOLIER*, when Fulgrim goes down to the planent to talk to the Eldar that the Eldar couldnt sense anything about Fulgrim. Without looking at book, I believe that the farseer says to his companion that whatever craft went into making the primarchs rendereds them invisible in the warp.

Maybe they don't have souls to begin with, but (and tieing in with the idea that Chaos helped make the primarchs) it was a piece of the Gods themselves that acted as their soul.

Just another perspective on this


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