# My view on Grey Knights



## DK1 (Nov 16, 2011)

I write this in the realization that the mass of “Grey Knights are overpowered” threads are bombarding the forums, and someone needs to level the playing field. I don’t in any way claim to be a master at this, but I have collected enough armies to see why certain armies are the way they are. I have collected Tau, Daemons, Space Wolfs, Old Grey Knights, New Grey Knights, Space Marines and Dark Angels. In turn I have helped friends in our LGS work on their armies as well.

I have come to realize the base points cost in any army book charges points for potential power as well as base cost. Here is a breakdown of Grey Knights vs Space Marines and why GK would seem overpowered.
At 200pts
SM= 10man team, plasma Rifle, Plasma cannon, Plasma pistol.
GK= 10man team

Now at ranged, the SM would win on average, even tho the GK would fire 20 rounds on the move, the SM squad out ranges with the cannon, and once the GK could fire the SM squad it putting out 2 AP2 weapon each turn. The closer the GK squad gets, the more damage they take. By average the GK squad should not be able to get into CC since taking 3-4 causalities per turn.

Now in the event that the GK have a rhino, the SM could change up to a lascannon and las-Razorback and drop the plasma pistol. Again the likely hood of GK getting close under two lascannons and once slogging after the Rhino is destroyed again will not make it into CC.

Now for 265pts the SM can take a 10man team, lascannon, plasma, Razorback w/lascannon. The spam of 1 TL las and 1 normal las.
Due to GK upgrade weapons only being 24” range, they have to get closer to do any real damage.

If the GK squad gets into CC then not counting charge, on average the GK will cause 5 causalities vs SM causing 2.5 per assault phase. 

Down to the Dreadnough Auto cannon spams. Now one on one the SM can field 2 ways for same or less pts, one being with just a lascannon, only needing a 3+ to glance the GK dreadnought armor, or with same load out of 2 auto cannons and needing a 5+ to glance with 10pts less on the price.
However the biggest counter to GK Dreadnought auto cannon spam is Assault Terminators, heres why.
For 3 Heavy choice Dreadnoughts armed with 2 Auto cannons you’re looking at 405pts. That brings 12 S8 shots at 48” of Transport popping goodness. However in our LGS a friend of mine counters with 1 10man squad of SS/TH terminators, in the first turn has scouts Infiltrate and bring a teleport homer. Whenever he gets the reserve roll passed he brings them in and starts to charge my Dreadnoughts, normally he hits them by turn 4, getting the reserve roll by turn 3. This isn’t the most affective tactic but it has made me split up my Dreadnoughts to the far corners of my DZ. His new trick is taking 6 Dreadnoughts (master of the forge) with drop pods and in the first turn bringing in 4 of them (taking two troops in Pods so his number is 8) and landing them as close as possible to mine. When I have taken 6 Auto cannon dreads I lose about 2-3 of them first turn, and in the turn he charges his Dreads vs mine it’s all over. At this point I have about 2 of his Dreads by turn 2 charging me, and 2 more coming in to help.

In all its not impossible, just have to build for it. I see the change in what GW is making 40k now, and in my option, its gearing toward getting rid of the “one list to rule them all” effect. The GK got nurffed from the old codex, but the power was just leveled out to the whole army. I miss my WS5, S6 standered, 2A with or without a charge, always fighting as if night conditions, Psycannons ignored INV svs and Terminators that would hand out death like the current Draigowing. But the army is more playable now.
Overall, GK rule the CC world, with the grenades and Force weapons and champions, GK hit the hardest up close. That leaves the Blood Angels to be the fastest CC army, the Space Wolfs to the most survivable assault army, and the Black Templar (with the right vow) the most adaptable CC/Range army (rerolls to hit and can take lascannons with a 5man team.)

In closing, I know not everyone will agree with me, and as this being my experience I’m only trying to help out thos that feel they are getting hosed. Just make sure you outnumber GK when charging, and thin them at range.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Despite Force Weapons on everybody, GK AREN'T an assault army. Most definitely not. The plan for GK is to sit at around 24" with S5 Storm Bolters and Psycannons, safe inside vehicles with Fortitude. See 3++ for more details, they explain it better than I can.

Midnight


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## DK1 (Nov 16, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> Despite Force Weapons on everybody, GK AREN'T an assault army. Most definitely not. The plan for GK is to sit at around 24" with S5 Storm Bolters and Psycannons, safe inside vehicles with Fortitude. See 3++ for more details, they explain it better than I can.
> 
> Midnight


Not an assault army? Thats why GK have Psychic powers making there strength +1 and grenades and force weapons and banners that give +1A and NFW that give CC bonues like +2I or +1++ in close combat or 2+ inval sv in CC. Yea they are not a assault army, considering just about every weapon they have is assault.


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## DK1 (Nov 16, 2011)

I didnt mean for that to be an attack, i understand that was your opinion, this is just mine.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

DK1 said:


> Not an assault army? Thats why GK have Psychic powers making them strength +1 and grenades and force weapons and banners that give +1A and NFW that give CC bonuses like +2I or +1 Invulnerable in close combat, or 2+ invulnerable save in CC. Yeah, they are not an assault army, considering just about every weapon they have is assault.


No offence taken :biggrin:

Having assault weapons doesn't make you an assault army. I believe there was a big discussion on in General recently on how shooting is just better than combat. Grey Knights cost more than any other type of MEQ and although they all have Force Weapons, they all have one attack as well (and the removal of True Grit means that the one attack will stay as one attack). True, you can Hammerhand up a squad, but they're still going to be attacking with 1 attack each at WS4 and I4, and dying just as easily as normal Space Marines, if not more easily due to the lack of numbers to share wounds around.

The banners and special NFWs that you speak of are available on certain units, mainly those dedicated to Close Combat. It's like saying that Orks are a close-combat army - it's true, but it doesn't mean they can't have Lootas as well. Just as you can tune Orks into a ranged army, you can make a GK force orientated towards close combat. Will it be effective? If you have other stuff as well and play it right, yes. Will it be AS effective as a list playing to the strengths of the Codex? Probably not.

The fact is, GK still won't beat charging Boyz, Genestealers, or Bloodletters in close combat. They will beat them at shooting. If there's a couple of them left, then you charge in and say 'Thanks for the NFW!'. They're there to mop up stuff left by your shooting, and because it's a lot cooler to end a battle by swiping through the last stand of the enemy with a Force Halberd than to shoot them until they die.

Midnight

TL;DR


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

GK is a shooting army that isn't useless in assault. Midnightsun sums it up pretty well.


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## Kronus (Mar 1, 2008)

MidnightSun said:


> Despite Force Weapons on everybody, GK AREN'T an assault army. Most definitely not. The plan for GK is to sit at around 24" with S5 Storm Bolters and Psycannons, safe inside vehicles with Fortitude. See 3++ for more details, they explain it better than I can.
> 
> Midnight





DK1 said:


> Not an assault army? Thats why GK have Psychic powers making there strength +1 and grenades and force weapons and banners that give +1A and NFW that give CC bonues like +2I or +1++ in close combat or 2+ inval sv in CC. Yea they are not a assault army, considering just about every weapon they have is assault.


Midnight is actually correct. You are right DK in that a lot of assumptions are made about them but the big one is that they are a not a cc focused force but a shooty army that just so happens to also have some of the most post efficient counter assault units to ever grace the 40k universe.

There Grey Knights are not dissimilar to spacewolves, fluff wise and imagery wise good in cc, but in practise work best at destroying from range. Both enemies enjoy cc power without really paying for it and both subsequently benefit all the more when going with a shooty approach is they can then be great at both. Where GK differ beyond the superficial aspect like force weapons, army wide psychic abilities etc is that they conduct their battle in the midfield, rather then backfield.

GK most powerful attribute is fortitude on the vehicles, narrowly followed by psybolt ammunition, auto cannon dreads (both venerable and normal) in concert with the gaming changing HQs that make some of the most versatile/powerful units in the game troop choices.

Only the most abuse IG mech list compares to a GK Henchmen lists with over a half dozen fortitude enabled psybacks, a librarian with shrouding, 4+ psyrifleman and stormchickens full of death cult. At competitive tournies I have seen the face of my opponent drain as he learns that I reserved all my 3 man henchmen units and simply deployed their razorback transports only. I can field 7 plus 5 dreads and other support at 1850. GK can put out more STR 6 and 8 shooting then any other army when built right and its fortitude and psybolt ammo that they have to thank. The first for making them practically impossible to stun lock. Certain armies like DE rely on stun locking their foes and such a list is a death sentence. The second allows them to obliterate all the opponents light mech by turn 3 (I have achieved this in one turn before against a fully mounted chaos rhino rush list) allowing them to dominate the pace of the game.

Obviously the above army represents an extreme example of what GK's are capable of but the same issues hold true. Purifiers may be scary because they have I6 forceweapons and cleansing flame which make them dangerous assault but its the fact they can also take 4 STR 7 Heavy 4 Rending guns that also have a assault mode that truly makes them great. Purifiers typify the grey knight problem, an enemy with formidable shooting abilities who you do not wish to assault. Against skilled GK players you will note that will seek to hold the middle ground (in part because their shooting range is fairly limited) but will not assault unless warranted preferring to run counter assault.

That said I think its important to thank K1 for his tactical contributions which are quite good to be fair. If you can kill the GK dreads then you in for a chance. To do so is lot easier in combat, due to how they abuse cover saves and fortitude (venerable GK dreads are insanely difficult to take out of action by shooting alone), so effective tactics for removal by assault are great. Shrike with his fleeting, infiltrating assault termies is a strong counter for example.

For a really good guide check out this blog:

http://11thcompany.blogspot.co.uk/s...0-08:00&max-results=30&start=10&by-date=false

Its done by the makers of 11th company, a 3.5 hour podcast with weekly updates, who in my opinion offer the best tactical advise and indepth codex analysis of any army. They are largely competitve gamers active at a national level in the US and really share their knowledge of the game. For anyone who listens to 40k radio, you really need to give them a listen and here what a good indepth 40k podcast is like. Its lead contributor is a rapid GK player but after slaughtering his opponents felt the need to explain in great detail how best to beat them and even includes tacticas for most of the current armies. To date he has 10 detailed articles on the matter and runs through the GK's every strength and weakness showing you how to neuter the form and exploit the latter.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

Every time our GK player charges with his banners and powers and starts explaining all the bonuses he'll be receiving to his stats my group pretty much just asks to remove the target of the assault from the table. "We get it, Grey Knights are awesome, you win..." He doesn't play a shooty army by any means and he dominates all the time. I am not buying what you're selling


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

Sothot said:


> Every time our GK player charges with his banners and powers and starts explaining all the bonuses he'll be receiving to his stats my group pretty much just asks to remove the target of the assault from the table. "We get it, Grey Knights are awesome, you win..." He doesn't play a shooty army by any means and he dominates all the time. I am not buying what you're selling


That's not complicated. He is noobstomping locals, nothing more


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## Kronus (Mar 1, 2008)

Sothot said:


> Every time our GK player charges with his banners and powers and starts explaining all the bonuses he'll be receiving to his stats my group pretty much just asks to remove the target of the assault from the table. "We get it, Grey Knights are awesome, you win..." He doesn't play a shooty army by any means and he dominates all the time. I am not buying what you're selling


GK can assault well, I do not deny it, but there armies work best shooting. If he's running the hammer/deathstar varient of GK its likely his list is not as competitive as it could be and should have some notable flaws for you to exploit. If your are struggling to get to grips with his list I am happy to provide non-partisan 3rd party advice. Post his list and tell me what armies your group play I will advise you how to rape him (even if your play the supposedly poor Nids, Tau and Daemons). I can tell you with no uncertainty that I have beaten the other GK player in my club so badly with my daemons, an army who should supposedly be in abject fear of them, that they very thought of fighting my daemons causes him to try to convince me to use a different force.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

He plays Draigo with Paladins in a Stormraven,(These guys have a house rule that all Imperial armies can use them), Dreadnaught with various loadouts but generally the asscan variety, Dreadknight, more GK Terminators with Halberds, Purifiers, and transports for whatever he has points to mech up. Which usually goes into a second stormraven. Games also tend to be 2v2. I play Necrons, there is a Dark Eldar player, a Deathwing player, the aforementioned GK player, and other two guys have a collection of pretty well every other army 
And I will admit that Tossidin pretty well has it. Three of the guys have been playing in tournament circles for 20 years, the other two for over ten each, and myself and the DE player since last spring. It's a tough game of catchup, that's for sure.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Sothot said:


> He plays Draigo with Paladins in a Stormraven,(These guys have a house rule that all Imperial armies can use them), Dreadnaught with various loadouts but generally the asscan variety, Dreadknight, more GK Terminators with Halberds, Purifiers, and transports for whatever he has points to mech up. Which usually goes into a second stormraven. Games also tend to be 2v2. I play Necrons, there is a Dark Eldar player, a Deathwing player, the aforementioned GK player, and other two guys have a collection of pretty well every other army
> And I will admit that Tossidin pretty well has it. Three of the guys have been playing in tournament circles for 20 years, the other two for over ten each, and myself and the DE player since last spring. It's a tough game of catchup, that's for sure.


So in no way is this representative of a competitive meta. using spare points to mech up and playing 2 on 2 games. GK are a shooty army, with the possibility of making good CC units if they need it.


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## Kronus (Mar 1, 2008)

*Necrons:* Can you post what you have? Necrons are actually a good match for Grey Knights due to the high AV of their vehicles, ressurection protocols working on ID and certain cheesy combos. However it would be nice to know what I have to work with. It would also be nice to know what you groups rules regarding proxing are?

*Deathwing: *Does your Deathwing friend run them with stormshields? If not hes bound to be having issues. Normal terminators strike too slowly to deal with GK, he needs the shields to ensure he can strike back and win combat. If he is running the typical 90% stormshield list he should be able to beat up draigo wing as generally speaking stormshield termie > GK termie. Deathwing units should have about 4 Thunder hammer Stormshields (a with cyclone missile launcher) and a chainfist in every squad. Click below for a good example of a strong deathwing force.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-39jf-ON21VA/TqbXFfET3xI/AAAAAAAAFr0/kpxLWhhzxyo/s1600/11+9-38-05+AM.jpg

*Dark Eldar:* They can really struggle against shooty GK armies but are very strong against terminators generally. You friend should run a dark light/venom spam list if possible with as much Dark light weaponry as he can since its AP 2 and is often strength 8 (IDing multi-wound marines). Darklances ID paladins like no business and should make light work of the storm chickens and the dread on mass. Tell him to invest in 3 x Ravagers with 3 DL and 3 x venom with 4 x Trueborn each with a blaster and see if he's still having problems. Avoid haywire blasters/grenades like the plague as glancing GK vehicles tends not to be work well.
He should serious consider taking 3 Haemonculae, all packing liquefier guns and one with a crucible of malediction. This use item causing every psyker within 3d6 to pass a leadership test or be removed. The GK vehicles wont be affected and brotherhood of psykers will limit the damage further but it could do some real damage and may even kill driago.
Lady Malys is another less attractive possibility because of her redeployment shinnegans, high I (she will go before GK) and immunity to psychic powers for her and her unit. Put her into a unit of hekatrix bloodbrides (with 3 x shardnets) and you should be able to do so damage and hold up his paladins for several turns. The redeployment element should be used, assuming your have the first turn, to lure him into deploying a juicy unit for an advantageous combat somewhat away from your main army only to be stranded after they are redeployed.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

The DE player does play lance/venom spam, but I will pass on the crucible idea to him. I have a lot of crons... My list is in my showcase if you want to save some space on the thread lol. All of my crypteks are conversions, and so are 6 of my wraiths, so proxy/stand in isn't a huge issue. There's also no problem saying "this game my Overlord will be Imotekh" etc. i'm in the process of scratchbuilding a few scythes for my list as well... So I can pretty well play anything you want to suggest haha. 
And McMuffin, the guys are very competitive, number crunching players. The GK player maybe less so, but just because they aren't all running long fangs and razorspam doesn't make them any less competitive. I would say the Deathwing player and myself are the only non competitive players.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

The players may be competitive themselves, but playing 2 on 2 games is not.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

Like I said, these guys have been noobstomping for two decades; at that point you mix it up with 2on2 or more. I find 40k is a completely different game the more players there are. I personally prefer one on one games, as they tend to be a lot more challenging and exciting... But this is becoming a different thread...


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