# Codex: Chaos Space Marines



## Epidemius (Nov 15, 2010)

Just wanted to see other people's opinions.
Do you think its a good Codex?
What are your opinions on rules, equipment, fluff, units, etc.?


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

I love the Chaos 'dex. Our troop units rival for best in the game (well, until Grey Knights are released) in terms of survivability, combat abilities, ranged abilities and in terms of flexibility

Our Fast Attack options are seen as useless, but can be used to devastating effect if played right

Our Heavy Support is phenomenal with every Chaos player having to chose between Obliterators, Defiler's and Vindicators at some point during their army building

Our Elites have the cheapest Terminators in any Marine codex, our special version of Melta Spam in the form of Chosen and for the players who feel lucky, the Chaos Dread

Our HQ's are deadly in combat, with many fearing Abaddon's presence on the table

I think its the rules where the Codex lets itself down. Lack of special rules for themed armies (Khorne, Slaanesh, Night Lords, Iron Warriors etc) really lets down the potential of the codex. I personally think the fluff is pretty cool as well


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## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

Dear god not another thread complaining about the Chaos Codex and then comparing it to the 3rd edition one. 
This is getting rather old.


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

I like the CSM codex and I'm so glad that khorne bezerkers are a troop choice. although I think that some special characters could be a bit more...special, I would also like the chaos lord or daemon prince to have something similair to orbital bombardment because it really gets on my nerves...

apart from that its a great codex and I just love the fact there is so much to choose from, themed armies, chaos icons/marks etc etc


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

jaws900 said:


> Dear god not another thread complaining about the Choas Codex and then comparing it to the 3rd edition one.
> This is gettign rather old


Could not agree more with you, lol.


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## Swarmlord (Feb 19, 2011)

I enjoy the fluff.


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

It has too few options for me.


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## Malgron (Jan 6, 2010)

I think it has been around long enough to stop complaining about it and instead, imagine how great the next one could be.

Personally, I would like to see:

Less random Possessed
Cheaper spawn or have them lose slow and purposeful
T5 Typhus or eternal warrior
sacred numbers to have some kind of reserves control
Psykic defense for Khorne and Tzeentch armies

As it stands, we can still make due. DP's, Cult Troops, Obliterators these options make the codex.


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Again, really?

If everything bland and tastless tastes of chicken its like eating Chicken flavoured cottonwool.

Bland, unpleasant in the mouth and hard to choke down.

Basically the reason this is the only edition of the game I couldnt be arsed to focus on my primary army, I can get more flavour out of Codex Ultramarines. Roll on 6th ed


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

:laugh: 

Has fun Lore, haven`t played the list often enough to know much else. Most players I know do miss the old dex but are generally happy with the current one.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Note: generally happy = tolerates. Where happy = actually enjoys.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

i think over all its a great codex, there are several minor changes id like to see gone though

Marks/icons: i dont really like icons for my generic CSM squads but not that i want to see them go away, but id rather see a dual system where say IoCG costs 10 points MoCG costs 20 points or something...

NMs: id like to see that NMs are 22(23) points a model which comes stock with a sonic blaster. i think blast masters should cost 20-30 points and you can take one per every 5 guys.

i would like to see more psychic powers, specifically god specific powers.

DPs i think they should be able to buy 2 psychic powers (tzeentch can choose 3 from any - one non other god specific power is free) Khorne DP gets a demon weapon (blood feeder) that ignores the bad effects of a 1.

i would like the named HQs have some sort of FoC adjustment, or free upgrades like the SM codex...

Abby for instance can grant termies as troops & grants a free upgrade of a single champion in all troops squads.

l would like are god-specific upgrades of demonic possession (and different things between walkers & tanks)

i would like some more Fast attack choices

i think havocs heavy weapons should be cheaper...by 5-10 points pending the weapon.

lastly i want the LR to have a transport capacity of 12 like all the newer ones.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

It's not a bad codex, but bland. Substandard fluff and little flexibility.

Tabletop-wise, it is carried by the strength of two of its troop choices that do their job quite well, and a cheap EW HQ. Those serve as a decent core to add stuff too (mostly artillery in the form of Oblits or vindicators/Defilers)


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

It is a damn good codex. I do wish players would stop moaning and bitching about it. You get all kinds if goodies imperials do not get such as:

Bolters AND bolt pistols with close combat weapons on standard troops
Max more meltas
Cheaper terminators
Cheaper lightning claws
Have more variety in places
Better psychic powers (apart from GK)
Special Characters are more awesome. They only need an extra take such as troops if chosen.
Lash of submission-the bane of stand and shoot armies
You get cheaper land raiders
Your vehicles can ignore stunned or shaken results for a small fee!
Its a lot less complicated. Yes the old one had a load of options but speaking through the eyes of someone who was 11 at the time the old dex was horribly confusing and there was a large margin for accidental mistakes (Like Death Guard could not have autocanons but could have reaper autocannons)


There you go. Some really good points about the codex. Where it falls down slightly is the lack of legion specific rules. However to implement such rules would be hard since the last codex that had it resulted in players abusing them BIG time (You know the Iron Warrior heavy armies and Alpha Legion daemonbomb lists that were common).


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Stephen I agree with you that the codex is a lot better then everyone makes it out to be, and is far from a weak codex. However some of the things you stated as positives are questionable at best.

For instance.
1) CSM get one cheaper landraider, and its cheaper because of the lack of power of the machine spirit (Hence not cheaper but even with its lost effectiveness in cost).

2) Cheaper terminators......they are cheaper only if you have them all with PW's which kinda defeats the purpose of CSM terminators since bezerkers do a better job killing marines, and hordes, and can still ride around in a 35pt rhino. Now I would not of had a problem if you actually identified the real strengths of csm terminators like combi-weapons, and icons. However their cost is not one of the positives to taking CSM terminators.

3) Better psychic powers, compared to what army..... Guard? at this point UM, BA, GK, and even eldar have better psychic powers or the equivalent (SM's), with the exception of lash which is the real bread and butter of CSM codexes these days.

4) Did you just say possession was cheap and or useful? Its 30 points last time I checked that ain't a cheap vehicle upgrade. Also you seem to forget that its all but useless for 65% of all the vehicles in the codex do to its high cost, and dropping of BS. I mean who is stupid enough to pay 20pts for something that decreases your chance to hit with direct fire weapons by 16%+. Hell I seriously think people that put daemonic possession on any vehicle under a 100pts should have their army confiscated for their own good.

Seriously Stephen the codex has up points, but you seem to either be using satire in your last post, or you have just not read the codex thoroughly enough.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Bolters AND bolt pistols with close combat weapons on standard troops


Space Wolves have this option too, and FC/CC to boot. Beserkers and TS dont. 




Stephen_Newman said:


> Max more meltas


In what, Chosen, yeah thats cool, but they arnt relible with Outflank or get shot up in turn one with Infaltrate. Plus the points are usaully spent Elsewhere. Also with units like Wolfguard, Sterngaurd, and Any Terminator type Combi Meltas can be as Max out as CSMs. With again better results.




Stephen_Newman said:


> Cheaper terminators


Thats right chepaer Termies that only work for the Termicide deployment. Rather have more expensive Termies with ATSKNF with Thunder Hammers/Storm Shields that survive to be WORTH their points.




Stephen_Newman said:


> Cheaper lightning claws


Who cares its still no TH/SS.




Stephen_Newman said:


> Have more variety in places


Like what, Troops? Cause thats the ONLY variety we have.




Stephen_Newman said:


> Better psychic powers (apart from GK)


Is this a serious statment? We have NO Psy Defenses. We Have to Test for EVERY power. Then to top it off only Lash, WT, and maybe WoC are worth it for the DPs.




Stephen_Newman said:


> Special Characters are more awesome. They only need an extra take such as troops if chosen.


The SCs are worthless for their PT cost. Abby is somewhat worth it and Kharn is pretty close. Thats it. No EW and mere 5++ (which a typical SM has 4++) doesnt cut it. Also DPs are agin Cheaper and can do more damage.





Stephen_Newman said:


> Lash of submission-the bane of stand and shoot armies


LOL yeah... too bad 5th is Mech.





Stephen_Newman said:


> You get cheaper land raiders


Thats right cheaper LRs that dont have Machine Spirit, or any useful Variant at all. How Nice would ity be too have the Crusader for my "cheaper" LC termies to assault those units that WILL be in cover.




Stephen_Newman said:


> Your vehicles can ignore stunned or shaken results for a small fee!


Good for Vindis... thats it.




Stephen_Newman said:


> Its a lot less complicated. Yes the old one had a load of options but speaking through the eyes of someone who was 11 at the time the old dex was horribly confusing and there was a large margin for accidental mistakes (Like Death Guard could not have autocanons but could have reaper autocannons)


So the game should be dumb down for players that have a hard time reading? I never understood how parents just drop off their kids at a store full of Teenagers and Adults with all the Kidnappings that happen.




Stephen_Newman said:


> There you go. Some really good points about the codex. Where it falls down slightly is the lack of legion specific rules. However to implement such rules would be hard since the last codex that had it resulted in players abusing them BIG time (You know the Iron Warrior heavy armies and Alpha Legion daemonbomb lists that were common).


For all the bitching I hear about IW or AL having abuse rules they were still beaten by equal competetive armies. Like the Lash Prince, PMs, and Oblits is less abused. At least the Old Dex gave me 2 builds and not 1.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

Fallen said:


> i would like to see more psychic powers, specifically god specific powers.
> 
> Erm, we do have god specific powers: Nurgles Rot, Lash of Submission and Bolt of Change
> 
> ...


The codex is fairly good and fun, but it does need alot of improvement, like legion rules, better possessed and dreads, stuff to make them more unique like; daemon engines, larger selection of chaos powers. Better more defined Marks and Icons aswell and unique wargear.

Fluff could do with more work aswell.

I cant wait for the next one, but for now itll do.


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

Not a bad codex overall, but needs more cowbell


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## StalkerZero (Oct 3, 2010)

Pretty unique special named characters, not too keen on the non-named/non-Daemon Prince HQs, troop choices are amazingly diverse and interesting, other than that I think it's pretty bland. 

Okay, the Defiler is a cool idea just not as good as it should be.

And Obliterators are awesome but not as cool as they should be.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

yanlou said:


> Erm, we do have god specific powers: Nurgles Rot, Lash of Submission and Bolt of Change
> 
> not to sound like an ass, but i simply said i would like to see more powers.
> 
> ...





Stephen_Newman said:


> It is a damn good codex. I do wish players would stop moaning and bitching about it. You get all kinds if goodies imperials do not get such as:
> 
> Bolters AND bolt pistols with close combat weapons on standard troops
> and lack of ATSKNF, can be sweeping advanced, or are fearless, and have to pay 40 points for a PF.
> ...





LukeValantine said:


> Stephen I agree with you that the codex is a lot better then everyone makes it out to be, and is far from a weak codex. However some of the things you stated as positives are questionable at best.
> 
> For instance.
> 1) CSM get one cheaper landraider, and its cheaper because of the lack of power of the machine spirit (Hence not cheaper but even with its lost effectiveness in cost).
> ...


please lets not turn this tread into the people that are "the CSM codex sucks" or "stop bitching about the CSM dex" group fight.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Fallen I am not sure I like you type casting my reply. If you actually read my post it states that I was agreeing with stephen, but was pointing out my disagreement with the suggested advantages of the codex. Matter of fact 50+% of your post criticized the same thing I did. Hence if anything your post is just the same continuation of the thoughts presented in my post. I agree that I may have come off as a bit negative, but Stephen has been in the hobby long enough to be able to pin point the strengths of the codex without throwing out things that are at best just labeled as average at best.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

...ok...

im sorry, i just noticed after i had typed everything that we did agree everything...and honestly i think you did a better explanation than I...and i got too lazy to just delete everything i typed. sorry if i did anything displeasing.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

The CSM codex as it currently is, works and while it's lost some of the variety of the old list, that list was not only confusing to the point of absurdity but since it let you turn Chaos Lords into DPs by proxy, somewhat unfair.

Then again it's hardly the only codex to have lost some of its flavour during the days of 4th edition, so Chaos players are hardly in a unique position. Once a new codex comes out (possibly in the next two years) they'll probably be more units and options (though if a termies as troops option is in there, every codex should come with a free packet of cheese) to sate those who lament the loss of variety.

However as an Ork player, I'm going to point that some of the 'uber' units listed in this thread, notably TH/SS termes aren't as good as people think they are. I've faced off against such a unit plenty of times and when you're attacked by 40-60 boyz 2+/3++ means diddly squat.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

So in other words you don't think SM's with TH/SS are powerful, because you are using one of the few massed horde armies.......you do realize a lot of armies out their don't have 70+Models with 2-3 attacks each? Try using a 45 model count army then come back and tell us how weak TH/SS terminators are. 

I mean damn its like saying C'tan aren't tough...hell my 20 man unit of squats with sniper rifles drop them all the time..


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

Fallen, look at how you put it, You said "i would like to see more psychic powers, specifically god specific powers" this statement come across to me as saying that the current codex has no god specific powers, 
what you should have put was "i would like to see more god specific powers and other powers in general" or something to that effect to avoid confusion.

As for the Daemon Prince, it was alittle confusing as it suggested you thought Daemon Princes could only buy one power.

But this is just semantics. 
I understand what you mean now and i do agree Daemon Princes need more options, something to make them more worthwhile then using lash princes, Khorne DP need making better as its the worst option for DP. Things like as u suggested new powers, maybe powers only a DP can have, signifying greater knowledge because of ascension. Unique weapons. Legions rules to work with them possibly.

There so much potential for the csm, that i cant wait to see the next dex


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## uber (Feb 28, 2011)

given how GW likes to sell models, one would think that they could drive many conversion kits if they gave you a reason to buy them. say if alpha legion units had power X i might be inclined to convert some. 

i really like the night lords, but since it doesn't do anything to the abilities to make a unit night lords, i am in no hurry to spend the money.


i also think we get pretty screwed in the psychic powers department. how is it that chaos is as much at risk to the warp than loyalists? one would think that our close ties with the warp powers would immunize us. at least i could overlook the bland selection of powers in that case.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

The Sullen One said:


> The CSM codex as it currently is, works and while it's lost some of the variety of the old list, that list was not only confusing to the point of absurdity but since it let you turn Chaos Lords into DPs by proxy, somewhat unfair.


While I agree that some of the options for a cool fluffy army were liable to be abused, the 'daemon princes' weren't really one of them. I don't have my 4th ed codex on hand, but if I recall correctly, daemon prince was simply a title used for a chaos lord who had purchased more than 50 points of chaos gifts (special chaosy abilities/attributes from the wargear list). And I believe it said something to the effect of "if you buy more than 50 points worth of chaos gifts for your lord you may consider him a daemon prince, and may want to model something suitably impressive." The term daemon prince at the time didn't connote a specific power nor did it mean monstrous creature; there was a specific chaos gift that conferred monstrous creature status. 

Essentially, if you are mutated enough with chaos gifts you can call yourself a daemon prince.

I don't see how that codex was so blazingly difficult to use or understand. Granted, some 11 year olds might have trouble with it, as a previous poster pointed out. But Chaos wasn't designed for 11 year olds, and I have a few squads of Slaaneshi daemons going without support to support my argument. :wink:

Cheers,
Kreuger

edit - @ über - on the one hand chaos is tied more to the warp, but on the other any sorcerer is likely to have enemies in the warp looking for an opportunity to attack. That seems plausible to me. However, considering said affinity, it surprising that Chaos has no psychic defenses . . . psychic hoods, scrolls of warding, or even collars of khorne.


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## uber (Feb 28, 2011)

plausible yes, but even granting that it would seem that the risk for chaos would be less.

i also like the idea of more defensive type stuff.

lastly i would like to see some radial powers for our SC's, i.e. something that affects all models within a given radius. loyalists have plenty of these, and i think it sucks that we don't get any.

i think friendlies should get modifiers if they at least are part of a retinue, and at best if within 12". do you really believe CSM's would rout if they were next to abby or kharn? no way.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

With all the options available in the Chaos Space Marine Codex, I think its fair to say its shit when seeing which of those options actually are competetive. With all those options, there are even fewer one would actually use. 

Whats even more shitty, is all the cool models they have but wont use due to the lack of efficiency they actually provide.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

You say that Chaos is not designed fir those who are 11 years old and thats fair enough. However you still have to mind that whilst you yourself might not be 11 years old your opponent on the other hand who has to believe every word you say might be 11 years old and asking a little kid to just trust every word you say seems a bit harsh to me.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Stephen_Newman said:


> You say that Chaos is not designed fir those who are 11 years old and thats fair enough. However you still have to mind that whilst you yourself might not be 11 years old your opponent on the other hand who has to believe every word you say might be 11 years old and asking a little kid to just trust every word you say seems a bit harsh to me.


If a kid breaks down into tears after I explain my chaos daemon prince ignores his saves and wounds on a 4+ at worst, that he has a 2+/5+/6+(bionics) and an ablative squad of chosen with varying wargear and choices, than that kid was never meant to play plastic spess men four-d-kay.

It took some learning because every army was different.

And no. I seriously love this new codex. I love my 2xdp/mos/lash/wings 2x10zerks/champ/fist/rhino/exarm 2x6pm/champ/fist/2xmelta/rhino/exarm 3x2oblits, 2x3term/hf/combi/chainfist, 5chosen/4xmelta/rhino/iocg.
It's the best. See by taking out all the other choices I can get REALLY FUCKING GREAT with the only list I can ever take. And it only gets more and more fun playing the same army with the same options let me tell you, the excitement of seeing other people's armies change while mine stays the exact same is fantastic. Not needing to buy anymore units, paint anything, or model anything has really freed up my time to pop all the anti-psychosis/blood pressure medication I need to survive the next goddamned game of 40k with this static, tasteless army. It's great. Really.


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## uber (Feb 28, 2011)

do other armies have that many more competitive builds than we have? 

there are plenty of builds that i am eager to try, but i don't know how great they'll perform.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Exactly Waffles! We're stuck in the warp no wonder our army list stays the same while everyone else changes!

@Stephen_Newman - I was speaking more about Chaos in general, thematically. It's like the [Censored] part of Warhammer 40,000. 

But I don't really have any sympathy for really young kids learning the 4th ed chaos codex. At 11, 12, & 13 I was playing using the Battle Manual and then 2nd Edition. If you thought 4th ed Chaos was complex try playing 2nd Edition. I know that sounds snarky of me, but I wasn't the only one playing at that age. There were kids younger than me, who held their own and knew the rules. And even as I got older we had more young kids (10, 11, 12 years old or so) join the gaming league at my flgs and do fine. 

Granted a few of them weren't really emotionally ready to play against other people at first, but it wasn't the complexity of the rules - they knew their rules pretty well.

Cheers,
Kreuger


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

uber said:


> do other armies have that many more competitive builds than we have?
> 
> there are plenty of builds that i am eager to try, but i don't know how great they'll perform.


There is more or less 1 competitive CSM build. You can chose if you want Plague Marines or Berzerkers. Thats it.

At least every 5th ed book have more options then that for sure.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

Luckily enough for me, i dont care about competitive builds, so i use what units i feel like, but yer more options equal better for the current codex.

@kreuger, the current codex is 4th the last is 3rd/3.5th.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Warlock in training basically raped every viable arguement on page 2.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I just find it funny that the whole we have only one competitive build cry has come up when Eldar, Tau and Sisters of Battle suffer from the exact same problems yet I hear very little bitching from them. 

As to Warlock in Training raping every argument I am afraid I disagree here as well. You see he skipped over one or two of my arguments like the decent psychic powers chaos marines enjoy by stating they have no psychic defence. Which was not the point I was arguing. As well as saying who cares about lightning claws when they are paired power weapons that allow re-rolls to wound. You can power up that thunder hammer but the chances are that you will suffer a lot of power weapon wounds that will eventually get around the SS before you get to swing that thing.

Again what was overlooked was that nearly every example he come out with came from a much more recent codex. Which were all built with 5th ed in mind unlike the chaos codex which was for 4th. Whole different ball game there.

In short I think chaos players whine and moan too much and should just wait atiently like every other army out there. Whining before even 4 years after the last release is just plain stupid in my opinion when at least 3 others (who also suffer similar problems) have waited longer. But hey don't let my grumbling keep you from the excessive whining.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

No
No
whaaat...
No



Stephen_Newman said:


> You see he skipped over one or two of my arguments like the decent psychic powers chaos marines enjoy by stating they have no psychic defence. Which was not the point I was arguing.


I Pointed out that we have 2 useful and competitive (as well as unique) powers. Lash if u pick up a MoS, and WT. MAYBE WoC if u feel lucky. Lash is worthless in 5th edition where Mech is king. WT is useless against any other army (Nids, Eldar, GKs, DAs, Ect...) that makes Psy Test for my Powers nigh impossible in a certain range. So wheres the Psychic Awsomeness?



Stephen_Newman said:


> As well as saying who cares about lightning claws when they are paired power weapons that allow re-rolls to wound. You can power up that thunder hammer but the chances are that you will suffer a lot of power weapon wounds that will eventually get around the SS before you get to swing that thing.


I I guess thats useful at Int 4.... Like Orcs, or regular SMs. However my LC Termies are USAULLY force to charge units in Cover (since SMART players place their guys in Cover) or units with a HIGHER Int. So again your awsome LCs are shit unless used with Lash or a idiot player. Ur getting attacked by however many hits with no doubt PWs/PFs mixed in and all u have is a 5++ save. Oooooor u can use your TH/SS which hit last and gaurantee to F**k S**t up with Strength 8, no save, Stun vehicles hammers at Int 1, and survive those attacks with PW/PF mixed in with a 2+/3++. Seriously its way better.



Stephen_Newman said:


> Again what was overlooked was that nearly every example he come out with came from a much more recent codex. Which were all built with 5th ed in mind unlike the chaos codex which was for 4th. Whole different ball game there.


So my examples are not true cause fully half the other dexes are now 5th edition and Chaos is stuck with a crumy 4th edition? Thats like the French complaining its not fair their little WW2 tanks lost to the bigger better Panzers. We cant bitch cause our Dex IS not awsome anymore becuase it was built for 4th!? 



Stephen_Newman said:


> In short I think chaos players whine and moan too much and should just wait atiently like every other army out there. Whining before even 4 years after the last release is just plain stupid in my opinion when at least 3 others (who also suffer similar problems) have waited longer. But hey don't let my grumbling keep you from the excessive whining.


Im not Grumbling, I live with it like a dirty bum lives with AIDS. It suks but its all we have. I just refuse to let possitive people try to polish up a turd. In the end its still shit.

LordofWaffles says it best how we CSM players feel.


LordWaffles said:


> And no. I seriously love this new codex. I love my 2xdp/mos/lash/wings 2x10zerks/champ/fist/rhino/exarm 2x6pm/champ/fist/2xmelta/rhino/exarm 3x2oblits, 2x3term/hf/combi/chainfist, 5chosen/4xmelta/rhino/iocg.
> It's the best. See by taking out all the other choices I can get REALLY FUCKING GREAT with the only list I can ever take. And it only gets more and more fun playing the same army with the same options let me tell you, the excitement of seeing other people's armies change while mine stays the exact same is fantastic. Not needing to buy anymore units, paint anything, or model anything has really freed up my time to pop all the anti-psychosis/blood pressure medication I need to survive the next goddamned game of 40k with this static, tasteless army. It's great. Really.


Im saving money for sure :laugh:.


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## Minizke1 (Feb 7, 2010)

Dawnstar said:


> I love the Chaos 'dex. Our troop units rival for best in the game (well, until Grey Knights are released) in terms of survivability, combat abilities, ranged abilities and in terms of flexibility


And this is why I hate them. :threaten:


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## Malferion (Mar 9, 2011)

I love most of the codex except for the utter lack of good psychic powers. i also don't like the fast attack choices. i'm not saying that they are bad, but I just don't like to use them.
I especially love berzerkers and Kharn


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