# Most dangerous pre-heresy legion



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Okay, we know the ultramarines were the biggest legion and the space wolves the hairiest, but, I'm wondering, who do you guys think was the most dangerous legion in a fight. Numbers aren't of consequence, I'm talking marine-for-marine which legion had the most dangerous lot.
My top three would be:
Thousand Sons - Psychic powers make them extremely dangerous, even to other marines.
Space Wolves - Enhanced senses, berzerker style of combat and unnaturally high resistance to warp effects grant them advantages over most other legions.
World Eaters - Mindless, fearless, unpredictable lunatics who fight with total abandon, willing to do things that even other astartes would think twice about.
Anyway, this is just my opnion. What do the rest of you think?


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## The Boz (Aug 16, 2010)

Alpha Legion?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Thousand Sons are an obvious one, if I exclude them though...

World Eaters- it's not a controlled aggression it's homicidal fury with no restraint. Space Wolves are a weapon directed at an enemy and let loose, the WE are a force of nature on a scale all of their own.
The only Legion to come close to their level of rage and brutality was the Blood Angels immediately post-sanguinius death.


To save time for *Lord of the Night*:

Night Lords- why? [some fan boy reason]


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

For me, the Night Lords have always been more bark than bite.
I'd rather face some guy with bat wings on his helmet going boo than a blood covered berserker wielding a chainaxe. But thats just me.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> To save time for *Lord of the Night*:
> 
> Night Lords- why? [some fan boy reason]


Haha, he won't be happy with that! :biggrin:

The Thousand Sons are one of the obvious ones, but whilst they wield unimaginable powers they do wield them at a price and are extremley volatile (Eg. Burning of Prospero).

Other than that it is very hard to come up with any sort of accurate list, they were all bad-ass. The World Eaters, Space Wolves and Alpha Legion are up there though, and personally, for the record I would have the Night Lords near the top, especially with Curze around.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

BA -[insert some fanboy reason]


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

World Eater Bezerker, reason why I say World Eater, is because for the most part they'd be experienced in thousands of years of warfare. Most of the loyalists don't have as much experience as traitors.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> World Eater Bezerker, reason why I say World Eater, is because for the most part they'd be experienced in thousands of years of warfare. Most of the loyalists don't have as much experience as traitors.


I presume that's why the OP asked about *pre*-heresy legions...burn :thank_you:


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

I would say the World Eaters, Thousand Sons, and the Space Wolves. Wow, almost every response to this thread says that.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> I presume that's why the OP asked about *pre*-heresy legions...burn :thank_you:


ouch. yep brain fart. Just woke up. In this case, I would say Luna Wolves. The Terran astartes seemed a little more under control, but the ones who were not born on Terra were a bit crazy before the heresy of course. 

Normally I would say World Eaters, but there isn't really any good description on what they were before the Heresy and without the aggression implants.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well we havent really had enough info about all the Legions pre-heresy to definitively say.

However you've of course got:
Thousand Sons - All ready covered by evryone
World Eaters - Baron summed it up just fine.
Space Wolfs - Covered
Alpha Legion - In general the Alpha Legions defeats were some of the best from what i've read, took alot more time than the others but when they eventually did strike you, evrything would go wrong and you would be crushed.
Luna Wolves - They didnt get the highest victory count by being friendly, when you've got a mind like Horus behind the attack its gonna be dangerous
Dark Angels - Same as above.
Word Bearers - Religous fanatics who arent going to stop until every ounce of resistance is crushed.
Night Lords - It's gonna be a pretty terrifying affair, ranking up their with the World Eaters


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

As much as it pains me to say this, I have to give the spook award to the night lords, I want to be able to fight them, not be shot from a fucking shadow. Dangerous though... Well that's a different story. It is a close battle between the wolves of fenris and the thousand sons. It is difficult to say, the sons had more raw power I suppose but the wolves were able to beat them. When it comes right down to it, I say the wolves.


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

even though i play Emperor's Children i would have to say Iron Warriors were the most dangerous of the LOT. they were siege specialists there wasn a barrier they couldnt break and they make the most durable citidels. Very smart group,tactics are flawless, and have been said to be as deadly in combat as world eaters. They were well on their way to heresy just needed a push when Horus came to power.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

5tonsledge said:


> even though i play Emperor's Children i would have to say Iron Warriors were the most dangerous of the LOT. they were siege specialists there wasn a barrier they couldnt break and they make the most durable citidels. Very smart group,tactics are flawless, and have been said to be as deadly in combat as world eaters. They were well on their way to heresy just needed a push when Horus came to power.


Iron Warriors are a well organized legion. Its too bad there really hasn't been fluff written about them. Even the book that made them look the best _Storm of Iron_ had a shit guardsman named Hawke(don't get me wrong, I love the character, but what the fuck) basically destroy the Iron Warrior encampment with a huge missle. Even Honsou's adventure wasn't really about Iron Warriors but about his pirate fleet.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Iron Warriors are a well organized legion. Its too bad there really hasn't been fluff written about them. Even the book that made them look the best _Storm of Iron_ had a shit guardsman named Hawke(don't get me wrong, I love the character, but what the fuck) basically destroy the Iron Warrior encampment with a huge missle.


How does that make them look bad at all? Hawke was simply ungodly lucky and even then he just pressed a button, nothing else. For the seige itself the Iron Warriors were shown to be highly effective.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Endurance: Death guard
Pure Power: Thousand Suns
Sealth: Alpha Legion
Fear: Night Lords
Melee: Wolves
-Cause people will ask, yes the world eaters are great with melee but SW's as tips the scale
Siege: I don't realy know them but From Storm of Iron I would go with Iron warriors


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

just think of the missle as a deathstrike missle, and they got it off before it was destroyed. strength 10 ap1 2D6 distance that will kill anything. and i disagree Honsou's story was about gaining respect among his fellow sons of puterbo he had that damn Imperial fist gene seed.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Gree said:


> How does that make them look bad at all? Hawke was simply ungodly lucky and even then he just pressed a button, nothing else. For the seige itself the Iron Warriors were shown to be highly effective.


Partially it was lucky, however, it was Honsou's incompetence and failure to secure and kill everyone in that outpost that really cause the survivor "Hawke" in blowing the crap out of the Iron Warriors. For me, no book has really shown the extent of the wrath of the Iron Warrior's.


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Partially it was lucky, however, it was Honsou's incompetence and failure to secure and kill everyone in that outpost that really cause the survivor "Hawke" in blowing the crap out of the Iron Warriors. For me, no book has really shown the extent of the wrath of the Iron Warrior's.


ditto, iron warriors kick ass


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

As much as I hate to say it, the Smurfs would have to be up there. The largest legion, the most tactically versatile, with a huge support base, and an unshakeable belief in their cause. There's a lot to be said all these qualities.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I was going to buck the trend and say the Emperors children would be up there, but with guys like eidolon in command they would have been tactically handicapped next to some of the others.
I agree with the Thousand sons. For raw horsepower they would be the most potent overall, with a possible specific disadvantage against the sons of russ. World eaters for combat.(They had their implants from when their primarch arrived). Alpha legion for the ability to win. They wouldn't have beaten many of the other legions in a straight up fight, but they don't do the straight up fight thing. They win, that is how they roll.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Partially it was lucky, however, it was Honsou's incompetence and failure to secure and kill everyone in that outpost that really cause the survivor "Hawke" in blowing the crap out of the Iron Warriors.


Not quite, I recall Honsou realizing that and dispatching one of his men to hunt down Hawke. It was really only Hawke's absurd luck that kept him alive.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Ah yes, though Honsou only "Realized" it when Hawke had been busy behind enemy lines observing their battle lines. Only when the Warsmith was angered by the slow progress made that he had "realized" this.

It would have taken a few extra seconds to a minute to make a body count and make sure his gernades had killed everything in the outpost.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> It would have taken a few extra seconds to a minute to make a body count and make sure his gernades had killed everything in the outpost.


How would Honsou know how many people where in the outpost?


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Seems that most people agree that, in general, the legions who eventually turned traitor were the most dangerous. Agree on the Iron Warriors though. I considered them before (the brief descriptions one occasionally finds of pre-heresy IW sound pretty hardcore) but really don't know enough about them to give an accurate appraisal of their abilities.
Also, was thinking about the Blood Angels. They were excellent shock troops but, alas, they only got really badass after Sanguinius died during the heresy so thats a moot point. Also, they had a few dumbass commanders like the guy who pretty much fed his company to the megarachnids.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Gree said:


> How would Honsou know how many people where in the outpost?


By actually securing the outpost. Checking to see if anyone is still alive. Bootcamp 101.


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

*Iron Warriors*



ckcrawford said:


> For me, no book has really shown the extent of the wrath of the Iron Warrior's.


How about "Dead Sky Black Sun" by Graham McNeill

Shows how powerful the Iron Warriors are and also how chaos has made them so very flawed. Their excessive wastage of man power and reliance on leaders who are insane. Though some are less insane than others but seem indifferent.


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## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

When we say "most dangerous" do we mean in a very general sense? If so, then I agree World Eaters in that an individual marine is capable of quite a swathe of destruction all by himself.

If we mean "dangerous to other marines" then I have to say Ultras or some other Legion that was known for its strength strategically. Why? Because World Eaters aren't known for their reasoned approach to battle. They're just well armed, well armored animals. Such an animal is dangerous face to face, but can be easily outwitted and led into a trap.

I mean seriously... how hard is it to shout at a World Eater "Hey ugly! Your momma wears combat boots!" And just be standing with a landmine between you and him...


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Night Lords, Alpha Legion or Iron Warriors.

NL - every defeat is only going to add to their power, and with their attitude to the geneva convention going as far as printing it out to wipe their arses with it after a shit, the defenders will get steadily weaker as morale hits take its toll. Apparently, just having a single warship in the Night Lords colours in the sector was enough to make it capitulate prior to the Heresy. 

AL - I don't really need to explain this, do I? Able to have even the most High Ranking officials corrupt and turn informer and secretly subvert it to the Imperium was infinitely more dangerous, and profitable than sheer force of arms.

Iron Warriors - What Defences?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

MuSigma said:


> How about "Dead Sky Black Sun" by Graham McNeill
> 
> Shows how powerful the Iron Warriors are and also how chaos has made them so very flawed. Their excessive wastage of man power and reliance on leaders who are insane. Though some are less insane than others but seem indifferent.


Basically a sad book, I don't like my favorite legion destroying itself. It was a battle that took a lot of good Warsmith's and Iron Warriors lives. Non the less though, I liked the book, except for the fact that Uriel was in it and just fucked over everything that was cool about the book. Uriel is the equivilent of a cock-block.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Vaz said:


> Iron Warriors - What Defences?


Imperial Fists - These Defences ^^


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Iron Cage Baba.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Iron Cage wasn't Iron Warriors assaulting Imperial Fists. For that i give you the Seige of Terra, and to even come close to breaching those bad boy defences they needed the aid of several titan legions, the other Traitor Legions, numerous greater and lesser deamons and a fuckload of traitor soldiers.


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## BrainFreeze (Oct 9, 2008)

Actually Siege of Terra was alot of people assualting alot of people and even then it wasent the Imperial Fist holding the breach it was the emo angel vampire boys.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It was the fists who built and designed it and Horus had to have siege guns made just to breach the walls of Terra because nothing they had could do it.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

But it was Peturabo and the iron warriors who said this is what you need to destroy them. He would have done so as well had the Big E not kicked Horus.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Maybe, 250k marines were just hours away. It is possible the loyalist could have held.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

aaaand moving back on topic...

I cast my vote for the World Eaters. Unflinching, determined, and your TS can`t zap all of them! (I hope...)


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> It was the fists who built and designed it and Horus had to have siege guns made just to breach the walls of Terra because nothing they had could do it.


Lol, the Lion gave Perturabo a hand on that one.

On topic I said that the Imperial Fists were the most dangerous legion. I think theres a reason why the emperor left Horus and the rest of the legions out to go get themselves killed. Someone said that Dorn and his fists were second to horus and his luna wolves in terms of victories. I thought the fists had good all around tactics, even though they had great defence strategy. I think thats why the Emperor favored him over Perturabo. 


Of all the chapters greatnesses, I think the Fists suffered the most in terms of honor. I mean, one can argue that the betrayed legions on Istaavan were hit worst, which is true, but Dorn and his fists got hit hard in terms of honor. They lost with their wall which was the best thing they had, and they failed to keep the Emperor safe. Not only that but the once pretorians of terra almost became its enemy because Roboute Guillliman and his Ultramarines replaced Dorn and his fists.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> aaaand moving back on topic...
> 
> I cast my vote for the World Eaters. Unflinching, determined, and your TS can`t zap all of them! (I hope...)


But alot of them would go down. The survivors would cause havoc if they had to reach the TS front line though, but ultimately, I think that if the forces were of similar size the TS would take out the WE.


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## Eremite (Aug 27, 2010)

There isn’t one.

Or, more accurately, it depends entirely on the situation. Many of the Legions, while not fully specialised, were better suited to different combat styles. F’r instance, the Iron Warriors were masters of siegecraft, of slow, patient war. The Space Wolves, White Scars or World Eaters were not a fan of such tactics and would have suffered greater losses if they tried, but if you wanted Blitzkrieg or decisive strikes they were the go-to Legions. 

Legions like the Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Luna Wolves, etc don’t seem to have a particular speciality, which means they were better all-rounders, suited to all battlefields. They might struggle in a toxic wasteland far, far more than the Death Guard, but they’d get the job done. Look at the Emperor’s Children, fighting a hellish war against the Laer – resolve and adaptability saw them through. 

The Thousand Sons do, at a glance, seem to have an edge no-one else has, but anyone whose read A Thousand Sons (or knows the general risks of being a psyker) can see the downside there. It also failed to save them from the ferocity of the Space Wolves – would they have fared better against the stubborn, never-give-in resolve of the Dark Angels or Iron Hands? I’m inclined to doubt. 

The Alpha Legion, Night Lords and Raven Guard didn’t tend to fight many open wars. They eschewed honour and more pitched battles, and favouring misdirection, ambush, surgical strikes and crucially fighting on their terms. The Night Lords have a reputation as cowardly because they prefer to take on prey that is much weaker than they are. This doesn’t mean they can’ttangle with the best, of course...

The Legions with reputations mostly got them not from how _well _they fought, but how they fought. No small wonder everyone was terrified of the World Eaters (who asked once if a planet would surrender before showing them how they earned their name). The Iron Warriors and their sensible, boring tactics (despite Perturabo being one the best strategists of the Primarchs) because they simply weren’t as impressive.

In a Legion on Legion fight with equal numbers, etc, I'd vote for the Alpha Legion or Raven Guard but only if they were on the offensive. If it was a specific kind of battle - siege, toxic wasteland, etc, my vote would change.


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## TraitorsHand (Sep 19, 2010)

Even though its been said often the Thousand Sons easily the most dangerous. Although small in numbers their psychic abilities were in all honesty just monstrous. I see now why Horus wanted to get rid of them. Anyone that can light a Titan on fire than take over it is not someone I want to go against.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

I'm going with the Luna Wolves. Since you know they were the deadliest most agressive Legion. 

Sure the World Eaters, The Space Wolves and the Blood Angels might have had sheer savagery and aggression on their side but none of them carried it off with the tactical flair and brilliant of the Luna Wolves. 

Theres a reason they had the highest tally of Victories and that Horus was named Warmaster. Because they trumped everything else! Remember in Horus rising when he said that he thought a war between his Legion against The Imperial fists would go on forever because as he put it The Luna Wolves were the best and most aggressive on the attack and the Fists were the best at Defense.



Chompy Bits said:


> Seems that most people agree that, in general, the legions who eventually turned traitor were the most dangerous. Agree on the Iron Warriors though. I considered them before (the brief descriptions one occasionally finds of pre-heresy IW sound pretty hardcore) but really don't know enough about them to give an accurate appraisal of their abilities.
> Also, was thinking about the Blood Angels. They were excellent shock troops but, alas, they only got really badass after Sanguinius died during the heresy so thats a moot point. Also, they had a few dumbass commanders like the guy who pretty much fed his company to the megarachnids.


Hmm I dunno some of the Loyalist Legions could really mix things up, I really wouldn't want to go up against The Fists or The Raven Guard. I'm sort of on the fence about the Crusade era Blood Angles, we haven't really seen them do anything yet. 

You're right about them getting a lot better after the Heresy though when they started to out-crazy the World Eaters.



BrainFreeze said:


> Actually Siege of Terra was alot of people assualting alot of people and even then it wasent the Imperial Fist holding the breach it was the emo angel vampire boys.


Emo Angel Vampire boys? Are you talking about the Legion who went so bat shit crazy and started doing so much damage they actually managed to make the World Eaters think "To hell with this! LEG IT!"


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