# Why is Chaos so ugly these days?



## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

In the Great Crusade and early in the HH, we get to see many examples of Chaos-corrupted societies that are relatively normal seeming, like the planet that Horus gets corrupted on, or they're downright beautiful, like Laer or Isstvan. Following Isstvan, Chaos seems to be all ugly all the time.

A good discussion on this phenomenon is the excellent recent post on the ECs and their descent into corruption, which has them going from being primping primadonnas into excrement-slinging bug-eyed monsters. Talk about wearing your allegiance on your sleve and advertising in neon who you're aligned with. Slannesh would probably attract a lot more pleasure-seeking converts if it's poster children weren't one-breasted claw-handed medusas. Going the other direction, toward a more idillic seeming lifestyle, would probably have Imperial worlds converting to Chaos in droves just to get away from the finger wagging authoritarian Corpse Emeror.

I would like to add that I'm not intending to offend anyone who supports more spikey-bits on their CSMs. I just think it doesn't add depth to the fluff when if you want to know who the Imperial rep in a battle is you just look for the one, "without the shit all over em'."


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Pretty sure the Laer weren't physically beautiful, only their way of life was in the eyes of the Emperor's Children.

The EC's have 'transcended' mortal views on what is beautiful hence their extremes in everything.

And corruption generally means the degradation of what once was and chaos represents this concept naturally.

Hard to answer your question really, it's like why asking why do bad guys like to kill people.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I totally understand where hes coming from. Extremes mean to me like.... hey I like naked chicks, Mature, Moms, Big Girls whatever. The Extreme would be.... HEY I like Naked Paris Hilton bitches with Huge Milky Breast!!!! Thats Extreme. You go from not picky to very Specific and hardcore. Extreme doesnt mean.... I like Chocalate Icecream. Then goes to I like eating shit and playing with it in my mouth. Thats not _extreme_, thats downright disgusting and Nurgle. 

Honestly ALMOST half the Extreme of Slannesh fall into the realm of Nurgle more so than Slannesh. 

Seriously How do you go from (Bottom pic) I might Stick my penis in that if she purs, to (Top pic) Ick and Scary. On second thought Slaneesh might not be for me.


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

> Seriously How do you go from (Bottom pic) I might Stick my penis in that if she purs, to (Top pic) Ick and Scary. On second thought Slaneesh might not be for me.


Scale of miniature 28mm.....

Scale of your penis.....:sarcastichand:

Nah, just kidding. I do agree though, Chaos has sort of lost it's charm as being an "Evil force of Badguy Badasses" and now appears to be "Rarrw Spikey Bits and Chains...look how evil we are! Tremble at our questionable our sexuality".

Actually, the 40K universe is a pretty big sausagefest now that I think about it...:shok:

Anyway, Warriors of Chaos are pretty okay looking, the old miniatures had charm, but the new details do make them look menacing in a "Black Knights of Death" kinda way.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I'm guessing a lot of it has to do with the fact that, at the time, Chaos was "at peace," and the societies mentioned were ones that had accepted the Ruinous Powers during said setting and time.

Granted, it wasn't "all pretty". The Lion, for instance, shows up on a world where human sacrifice is part of life. Evil, violence, hedonism, compromise of ethics for knowledge, etc., are part of the "Chaos experience". And then there are societies that just were always ugly - like the Cadians, when Lorgar finds them.

If Chaos is now primarily exemplified by mutated, hideous followers, then perhaps that's because the currently milieu has shifted to constant warfare (unlike the "golden age" period of the latter part of the Age of Strife) and that's what the Powers need from their followers. As in, pretty buildings and people, along with orgies, blood games and sacrifices during peace; ugly stuff, destruction on a mass scale, etc., when on the war-path.

Cheers,
P.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

I always thought Chaos was all about corruption. I wasn't aware at one time that chaos infested worlds were pretty looking. 

I always figure that people or worlds that turn to chaos lose themselves and get controlled by chaos. By possession they slowly rot away or take a different form.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I'm sure there still are relatively normal worlds where Chaos holds sway or is the dominant/accepted religion or form of worship. 

But we don't hear about those because most of our fluff comes from an Imperial viewpoint, who naturally enough demonise Chaos to the extreme. We also see only the most warlike of examples as this is after all background to a wargame. The majority of the fluff comes from novels or codecies where information is presented from a military perspective. 

Its just like there are obviously civilians and people living normal lives on normal planets in the Imperium but we don't hear much about them do we. That doesn't mean they don't exist, they have to or the Imperium wouldn't function.


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## Matheau (Nov 30, 2010)

Considering its been 10000 years or so, I would think any of the relatively normal Chaos worlds would have been obliterated. None of the worlds you mentioned actually were much of a military threat. There is a definite correlation between level of corruption and strength for Chaos. The less corrupt members are the ones that are going to get killed off the most easily.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Rems said:


> I'm sure there still are relatively normal worlds where Chaos holds sway or is the dominant/accepted religion or form of worship.
> 
> But we don't hear about those because most of our fluff comes from an Imperial viewpoint, who naturally enough demonise Chaos to the extreme. We also see only the most warlike of examples as this is after all background to a wargame. The majority of the fluff comes from novels or codecies where information is presented from a military perspective.
> 
> Its just like there are obviously civilians and people living normal lives on normal planets in the Imperium but we don't hear much about them do we. That doesn't mean they don't exist, they have to or the Imperium wouldn't function.


Don't know where you got this idea from but everything we have seen or are led to believe about Chaos points to misery, corruption, death, etc.

And it has nothing to do with Imperial propaganda/us only seeing their perspective. 

There are no butterflies or fairies with anything touched by Chaos. The Chaos powers are dark mirrors of mortal emotions x infinity and so there is no place for anything beautiful or _nice_ when you follow them but if there is it's either an illusion or a sign that you're about to be devoured or mutilated


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

The answer's pretty easy from a meta point of view. As promoted by (american) television, people being chopped to gory bits is fine. Showing even a nipple can't be condoned.

In short, Khorne is winning the PR war against Slaanesh something awful


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Mainstream media/America is against nudity/sex for the most part.

But when it comes to books/franchises meant for a very small audience? Doesn't really apply.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Doesn't it? Find me an example of the franchise we're speaking of straying outside the PG rating naughty-wise in the past decade or two - despite the fact that just about everything rates an easy R for violence.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Can you rephrase that?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I hope this is in the nextDaemon Dex. Meeeow.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Very well. Crudely put, you can find violence that should rate a 'not for children' in any 40K book or movie or whatnot. Find me an (official) 40K book that has boobies


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Shandathe said:


> Very well. Crudely put, you can find violence that should rate a 'not for children' in any 40K book or movie or whatnot. Find me an (official) 40K book that has boobies


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## Smokes (Nov 27, 2009)

I'd hit that.




















































































With Exterminatus.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

And you'll note the new Daemonettes are carefully censored to avoid showing nipples. The old ones don't qualify for the 'past decade or two' I'm pretty sure.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Look closer.

Also there is plenty of talk of rape, orgies, etc. in the novels.


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## Sir Whittaker (Jun 25, 2009)

I think this only really applies to slaanesh, none of the other chaos gods are really associated with what most people would call pretty. I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands of worlds out there where everything is serene and lovely, but the nature of she who thirsts is that her worshippers eventually crave more and more to get the same buzz, so those worlds don't stay that way forever. 

Slaanesh is an interesting one because it'd be difficult to market what is generally recognised as Slaaneshi, i.e. hot, naked chicks. Whilst sex does sell, sex and children or sex and younger teens is usually frowned upon, and those age groups are a large part of their market and it would be stupid to alienate them. The likelyhood of mummy buying little jonny the 28mm tabletop wargame model of a beautiful woman tweaking her nipples and spreading her labia for all to see is pretty small IMHO. Then there's the expensive lawsuit when he buys it for himself. 

The nasty looking trend in Slaanesh miniatures I like to think is the whole pleasure/pain dichotomy. Think Hellraiser. Also, remember that these body modifications help those with them catch the sensation they need to get that all important high. I did prefer the sexier daemonettes, but i don't loathe the current ones, they are all aspects of the most varied and interesting of the great four.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

I am looking. The models you're picturing are the old Daemonettes. 

The rape and orgies don't happen on screen, so to speak. Seriously, GW is censoring themselves left, right and center ever since they came to the horribly wrong idea that children have the disposable income to be their customers.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

On screen? Because they know on certain levels, talking about rape in detail is just off putting so they simply reference it or touch upon it lightly to get their point across.

So what if they are old? The US/world was conservative even back then.

They aren't censoring themselves. 

There is sex and all that in the novels, figures, etc. It's just that the authors aren't going to the extremes even though the nature of the universe they write about is full of it. 

Perhaps the authors themselves simply do not want to indulge in such things, thankfully I might add. Personally I don't mind violence and all that jazz but when it comes to raping women, I do take offense and I just find it distasteful.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Most of the Slanessh demonette descriptions I've had from The Inquisition War (Omnibus), the GK Omnibus, and HH Fulgrim describe them as single-breasted beasties with claws and all the rest. When it comes to the insidous nature of Chaos, I think it could add a lot more depth to the fluff if:
-Slaanesh starts a Stepford Wife program for planetary governors and before anyone knows it, has several star systems under it's control... beautiful, ordered, insidious.
-Nurgle has a disease that incubates over decades but is immediately spread through social interactions common among the upper class, so an entire planet doesn't die in a pool of goo before spreading among hundreds of star systems

-Tzeench improves the designs of mechanicum products that greatly benefit people, but has a Y2K bomb... or hell, tries to spread direct democracy as a way of screwing the Imperium but apparently improving people's lives
-Khorn... OK, he's just ugly and the Imperium does most of his work for him already.

Instead, Chaos is always ugly, crude, slimey and sticky. No wonder they haven't taken over the galaxy. They need more style!


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Sir Whittaker said:


> I think this only really applies to slaanesh, none of the other chaos gods are really associated with what most people would call pretty. I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands of worlds out there where everything is serene and lovely, but the nature of she who thirsts is that her worshippers eventually crave more and more to get the same buzz, so those worlds don't stay that way forever.
> 
> Slaanesh is an interesting one because it'd be difficult to market what is generally recognised as Slaaneshi, i.e. hot, naked chicks. Whilst sex does sell, sex and children or sex and younger teens is usually frowned upon, and those age groups are a large part of their market and it would be stupid to alienate them. The likelyhood of mummy buying little jonny the 28mm tabletop wargame model of a beautiful woman tweaking her nipples and spreading her labia for all to see is pretty small IMHO. Then there's the expensive lawsuit when he buys it for himself.
> 
> The nasty looking trend in Slaanesh miniatures I like to think is the whole pleasure/pain dichotomy. Think Hellraiser. Also, remember that these body modifications help those with them catch the sensation they need to get that all important high. I did prefer the sexier daemonettes, but i don't loathe the current ones, they are all aspects of the most varied and interesting of the great four.


Last time I check Murder, Torture, and SMs oozing SHIT from their mouths is VERY FROWNED upon to younger audiences as well . Seriously its okay to have pictures that would scare the guy who made the Exorcist yet a little booby and its all over. Thank god for Cable TV that shows sex and boobies now and days. 

Also this game is European base. Am I wrong, the largest targeted group be Europeans right? How is when I was in Italy for 2 years on the local channels they had a Orange Juice Commercial that stared a NAKED PREGGO bathing..... for Orange Juice......... I never saw the connection but it does shoot down the whole "Its censored cause sex is frown upon" comment. America frowns upon Sex, every other country embrace it. You know what else America frowns upon? Alcohol. Were the ONLY dry navy in the world. Fuck me....


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

Chaos is Chaos, the meaning is in the name really.


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

Most of the time the thing about chaos is that it takes everything to extremes, so anything we'd consider "pretty" would generally be taken so far that it's gone way beyond it. Pretty also really doesn't apply to Khorne or Nurgle so it's quite obvious that it's not expected from them; therefore Tzzentch and Slaanesh are the only candidates and since both don't give a damn whether it looks sensual or glamorous enough other than it fueling their own side with power from excess or change it's not really surprising that Chaos in general is ugly. The worlds that are not nasty from Chaos is normally not fully corrupted or dedicated to them, and in 40K the only ones that cause enough trouble for us to care are the very screwed up ones. Otherwise it would be kind of odd to see random excerpts of "pretty" chaos corrupted planets that the Imperium is getting ready to curbstomp.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

The major shift to chaos being idiotic, repugnant, and counter productive thick heads really came to a head in the 4th edd csm book. If you compare the old codex fluff describing CSM's they often sounded like arch villains, and warriors without peer. However some key changes really spoke volumes about the black and white idiot view taken by the designers.

Example Khorne bezerkers went from CC fanatic space barbarians to lobotomized nutters that run idiotically into death traps because they are far to stupid to know its a bad idea. Not to mention the fluff on possessed makes them sound like they signed a death warrant for a temporary gain of say a few years (CSM are often 100+ years old I really doubt the idea of having their flesh and soul being taken from them be sum lesser daemon upstart would really only appeal to the most fanatic chapters). Remember most CSM don't worship daemons for the legions often see themselves as the equal or better servants of the gods. 

On the aesthetic part I have to agree that the person that designed the new look for slaanesh needs to be executed at GW (I like 2 of the EC heads, but honestly their guns look like the complete opposite of what people that seek perfection and excitement would use, and look more like something a plodding heavy support troop would use that prefers to sit still and shoot. I mean the things look like they weigh more then a laz cannon how the hell are they assault weapons?).

Still model wise the new possessed and terminators are a hell lot better looking, so even though the codex, and fluff makes them look like a roving group of retarded mutants at least the models themselves look better.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

yanlou said:


> Chaos is Chaos, the meaning is in the name really.


You would think, however more and more chaos in warhammer 40000 becomes less random, and more like what its original hidden meaning was supposed to be. Seriously for those that have followed the naming trend in 40k, and the extended fluff very little is random in chaos according to the fluff (Tzeentch's plans, Nurgles surges of plague, Khornes ritualistic combat and decorum, Hell only slaanesh seems needlessly random).

Lets be frank here CSM are satanic space knights. However just like with the sex thing they want to avoid making anything culturally taboo to obvious. Hence why the avoid just saying their is something equivalent to maya, Ahriman, Lucifer, the devil so they just made up 4 gods that represented things that most would consider evil.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I say.

If you are a follower and servant of Chaos, it IS beautiful.

The changes and mutations are gifts, and physical proof that your patron God/Gods exist. Unlike the blessings of the Corpse God.

When a Chaos follower looks overhead and sees flocks of furies overhead, he might well be of the opinion that they are beautiful angels, and their screams are the sweetest music.

When he looks upon Daemonettes he will imagine beautiful young nymphs skipping, playing and singing.

When he sees Plague Bearers he will see the gifts Papa Nurgle has invented to bring eternal life to his followers, to allow them to transcend their own mortality.

When he looks upon Tzeentch and his ever changing ways, he won't see horrible tenticles and multiple eyes looking back, he will see a future of endless possibilties.

When he looks upon Khorne, he will be witness to the power, glory and majesty of a true warrior, and will appreciate the power to protect himself from his enemies.

So like I said: Chaos is all about how you look at it.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

D-A-C said:


> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I say.
> 
> If you are a follower and servant of Chaos, it IS beautiful.
> 
> ...


Agreed, in the Word Bearer novels this is especially true of Daemon looks, and Daemon looks only. The Skinless Harpies look like Skinned Humans with Bleeding wings in the Material Verse. In the Warp or from a Warp Seeing Mind they are Angels of Light. However no way you can spin the Tentacle, Shit oozing at the mouth PM a beautiful thing to another CSM or Cultist.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

So in other words the current models are what daemons appear like to sane or average xeno's and mortals. Still doesn't explain the noise marines awkward guns, and gimp masks.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> So in other words the current models are what daemons appear like to sane or average xeno's and mortals. Still doesn't explain the noise marines awkward guns, and gimp masks.


No... no it doesnt... I hope no one Stones me (in the bad way) to death if I mention I love the current Noise Marine Models. I do. I like the 3rd ed Doom Sirens better.... but love the Blast Masters and Sonic Blasters of the current one.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Well it is a matter of taste, I personally like their appearance too, but it just is so counter to their modus aporendia that it would be like if berzerkers had plasma cannons or Plague marines had laz rifles.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> You would think, however more and more chaos in warhammer 40000 becomes less random, and more like what its original hidden meaning was supposed to be. Seriously for those that have followed the naming trend in 40k, and the extended fluff very little is random in chaos according to the fluff (Tzeentch's plans, Nurgles surges of plague, Khornes ritualistic combat and decorum, Hell only slaanesh seems needlessly random).
> 
> Lets be frank here CSM are satanic space knights. However just like with the sex thing they want to avoid making anything culturally taboo to obvious. Hence why the avoid just saying their is something equivalent to maya, Ahriman, Lucifer, the devil so they just made up 4 gods that represented things that most would consider evil.


For the Chaos Gods yes its not random, they plan and scheme (which has its own level of randomness still), but to mortals looking at Chaos and worshiping it, everything is just that to them "Chaos". 

Mortals can not comprehend the warp at, all they see is random fluctuations of movement and colour, there is no real pattern that Mortals can interpret, so they see it as Chaos, a mutation might look random to a mortal but to the chaos god bestowing the mutations its planned. 

For the most part what is explained in fluff is seen by the eyes of mortals and the only word that seems fitting to them is chaos, i think in one of the first 3 Horus Heresy novels, theres something similar mentioned.

This is the best way i can explain it really, I apologise if it just seems like rabble.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

yanlou said:


> For the Chaos Gods yes its not random, they plan and scheme (which has its own level of randomness still), but to mortals looking at Chaos and worshiping it, everything is just that to them "Chaos".
> 
> Mortals can not comprehend the warp at, all they see is random fluctuations of movement and colour, there is no real pattern that Mortals can interpret, so they see it as Chaos, a mutation might look random to a mortal but to the chaos god bestowing the mutations its planned.
> 
> ...


Don't forget that alot of psykers CAN make some sense of the warp. They can read its motions and movements to see the past or fortell of the future.

I would imagine that Sorcerers such as Ahriman and Abaddon's Kabals of Sorcerers are quite skilled at seeing and making sense of the warp.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

D-A-C said:


> Don't forget that alot of psykers CAN make some sense of the warp. They can read its motions and movements to see the past or fortell of the future.
> 
> I would imagine that Sorcerers such as Ahriman and Abaddon's Kabals of Sorcerers are quite skilled at seeing and making sense of the warp.


This is true. Non Psykers, rather those really intune with the Warp like the CSM Lord Marduk of Word Bearers or Lord Gammadin of the Blood Gorgons are not Psykers but are so connected with the warp they have Warp Powers stemming from the connection as well as perceaved the warp like Psykers can. Talos isnt a Psyker and his gift allows him to perceaved the future which would be via Warp. Psykers arnt the only ones.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

The reason why Chaos is so ugly is because they lack any good taste in fashion.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

I forgot about the Pyskers but even then there probably only limited to what they can make sense of, its probably only the surface of the warp that they make sense of, nothing any deeper then that, no mortal can perceive the plans of the gods, what they do see is what they consider random, what they consider chaotic, so to them what might be beautiful to the forces of chaos, to the gods is not beautiful it is ugly and corrupt.


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## Ahriman's Loanshark (Jan 25, 2011)

from a political point of view, shandathe is absolutely right. its the FCC's censoricles [TM] touching everything in sight to 'purify' it like a SoB squad. but from a fluff point of view, it could just be that the societies that were chaos and beautiful did not have the dark image of chaos that the Imperium presses on people in the 41st. without that pre-existing notion of what chaos is, the people who were chaos could more easily create beutiful things, while the outsiders were more open to what they were seeing. the beauty factor came through naiivity.

as for the usual inability of mortals to make any sense of chaos and, therefore, the inability to find it beautiful; one, maybe they just had alot of demand for abstact art and their artists were influenced by Tzeentch, or two, the gods wanted them to be more attuned to the warp and more able to comprehend it for some reason. maybe their culture, their art, their society were all inspired by the chaos gods for some unforseen purpose.


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