# Necrons, The Sleeping Giant?



## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

So, with the advent of necrons hopefully around the corner, i have been thinking more and more about them. What is your opinion on them, are they too broken down and the tombs too damaged to be any major threat to the future of the imperium, or are they the sleeping giant of 40k? i think that it is the latter (slightly biased) and with more and more tomb worlds being awoken, the extent of the necrons power is being revealed. Tomb Ships able to obliterate stars in the blink of an eye, theoretically impossible weapons able to vaporise a space marine in seconds, the most powerful ctan entombed in close proximity to earth. these dont bode well for the imperium. the necrons can move from one side of the galaxy to the other in seconds with no contact to the warp, therefore, in theory, they could send the Essence of the Nightbringer tomb ship to Terra and blow up the sun, bye bye Terra, bye bye emperor (although he could be the chaos god of Good :O ) bye bye imperium. I hope that the Necrons become a more realised threat in their new dex, and we see their full power.


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## SnoopyChicken (Sep 23, 2010)

I agree, theyre currently a seriously underestimated threat. If the necrons and ctan can kill most of the galaxy and f*** up the old ones, they have to be incredibly powerful. I think the awakened necrons are just the tip of the iceberg


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Well, the 41st millennium is pretty much over, and they haven't started their harvest.

They would have to change the name of the game from 40K to 41K if they wanted to continue the storyline with Necrons starting their harvest.

And GW would never let their harvest phase go ahead. If there was enough of them to be able to finish their harvest phase, all the other races would be dead, and the game would be effectively pointless and boring.

To be honest, i cant see any drastic futures for M41/42.
GW will just keep the fluff how it is, and milk it for every dollar they can, ignoring the 40K/41K issue.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

necrons dont sleep... they wait.


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

I read on here about a month ago, around the time the 'sneak peek' of the Tomb Stalker was put up, that the Necrons has three phases.

The first phase is were the current codex sits, it relies heavily on the use of the Warrior, and other small units. It is a kind of 'scouting' party, you could say for the Necrons.

The second phase is rumoured to be the point that GW is heading for the next codex. The Necrons become far more powerful, more unique units begin to awaken from the Tomb Worlds, and we see the beginning of larger Necron vessels being used.

The third phase is the Harvest and everybody dies. Case closed.  Essentially this is the Tomb Worlds activated to their full capacity, and the Necrons are unstoppable.

That's going off what I can remember, so if anyone has a more accurate version, shoot.

Clearly GW won't head too phase 3 anytime soon, unless they wanted a MAJOR plot change. The Necrons are definately a sleeping giant, they have so much untapped potential that GW has on hand, and it will be exciting to see where they take the Space Skellies in their next codex.

Grish


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## Waaagh_Bong (Aug 10, 2010)

I think the Necrons have tombs on some worlds that when they awake its going to be a huge pain for what ever race(s) that are unlucky enough to be on that planet. Im not just talking about some back water rock, im thinking a forge world or something of that scale.


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## jfvz (Oct 23, 2010)

I dont realy think a tomb world would be much more that a mining planet, cause all life and life sustaining chemicals (like water) has been removed to hid them from the daemons unleashed in the war against the old ones

I know about the Nightbringer and Deciver but does any1 know what the other 2 C'tan that r still sleeping are?

I think it will be a race between the necrons and the nids to see who harvests the galixy 1st. Through ive always thought there where similarities between the hivemind and something a kin 2 an unnecrodermised C'tan


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

jfvz said:


> I think it will be a race between the necrons and the nids to see who harvests the galixy 1st. Through ive always thought there where similarities between the hivemind and something a kin 2 an unnecrodermised C'tan


The 3rd C'tan IS the Hive Mind.

The Necrons created the Tyranids to keep all the other races under control while the Necrons sleep.

Once the Necrons awaken, the 3rd C'tan (the Hive Mind) simply tells the Tyranids to kill each other.

There is a reason that Tyranids dont go near the Necron tomb worlds. The C'tan is controlling them.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

KingOfCheese said:


> The 3rd C'tan IS the Hive Mind.
> 
> The Necrons created the Tyranids to keep all the other races under control while the Necrons sleep.
> 
> ...


Sometimes I find it very difficult to tell when you're taking the piss, thankfully this isn't one of those times :grin:

@jfvz- The C'tan didn't hide from anything, the Enslaver Plague (it was Enslavers not Daemons) couldn't harm them but it was killing their prey so they went into hibernation to wait for a time when sentient species would once more rise again to dominate the stars.

Whilst many of the planets Necron forces went into hibernation on were dead worlds, many were not- at least 1 Space Marine home world was actually a Tomb World, the Necrons annihilating the Marines when they awakened.

The Outsider and the Void Dragon are the two remaining known C'tan, the Outsider in a Dyson Sphere on the edges of Imperial Space and the Void Dragon on Mars.

The Hive Mind is a collective consciousness comprising the entire Tyranid race, in no way is it anything like a C'tan.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> ...the Outsider in a Dyson Sphere on the edges of Imperial Space...


You mean this?


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Sometimes I find it very difficult to tell when you're taking the piss, thankfully this isn't one of those times :grin:


Curse you Baron! :ireful2:
*shakes fist violently*


:laugh:


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## jfvz (Oct 23, 2010)

KingOfCheese said:


> The 3rd C'tan IS the Hive Mind.
> 
> The Necrons created the Tyranids to keep all the other races under control while the Necrons sleep.
> 
> ...


Where did u find that out? Doesnt realy make 2 much sense, 2 many unexplained nid occurances and there are other explinations for why nids dont go near necron worlds. Like the fact there is no biomass so the nids wouldnt be interested in wasting resources trying 2 harvest nothing.

Nids also come from outside the galatic plane, and the necrons are limited to that galixy.
Through both races use non-warp based faster than light traveling the mechanisms they use are as different as the nids and necrons are themselves

In the necron codex it says that the other 2 C'tan are still sleeping and the deciver has stopped the younger races from disturbing them.

If the necron wanted 2 controll the younger races there are much better ways then the nids who destroy large portions of their possible harvest, leaving those worlds basically impossible 2 repopulate.

while the hive mind might be like a C'tan i doubt it is 1 of the 4 remaining in the 40k galixy


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

jfvz said:


> Where did u find that out? Doesnt realy make 2 much sense


Probably because he was bull shitting, mocking your own beliefs in his special Aussie way.


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## jfvz (Oct 23, 2010)

Haha, its what us aussis do, its so funny, gotten my friends plenty of times, dont mind being gotten myself


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Waaagh_Bong said:


> I think the Necrons have tombs on some worlds that when they awake its going to be a huge pain for what ever race(s) that are unlucky enough to be on that planet. Im not just talking about some back water rock, im thinking a forge world or something of that scale.



Yeah, that would be a huge cost, seeing as the only way to really stop a active tomb world from functioning anymore is exterminatus (and even then some ships could escape). The Necs are alot like the Nids in that aspect; once they get a solid grip on a planet, no-one else is using it afterwards. As for the acceleration of the Nec phases, it's pretty much the same as the main Nid fleet getting ever closer or the increase in empires and fighting cohesion among the Orks or the Black Crusades getting harder and harder to stop. GW is pretty much taking a giant shit on the imperium, everyone else is growing stronger (with the exception of the space fairies and their perverted cousins) while the imperium steadily grows weaker. 

On a side note, it has been stated that if all the Orks unite they could crush all opposition but they lack full cohesion as a race and thus aren't the threat they should be. Then, it's also hinted that the Orks are the Old Ones's last ditch attempt to battle the Necs. So I've formulated a theory, what if the increased cohesion among the Orks is actually them subconciously reacting as a race towards the increasing threat of the Necrons? Like on an instinctual level kinda like how the various oddboyz know their trade without any training. Does this sound crazy or do you guys think I could be on to something?


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## Waaagh_Bong (Aug 10, 2010)

damn i typed up a good reply, but i did not click send...i just left this thread with out posting.

New Castle ale 1
Waaagh Bong 0


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## jfvz (Oct 23, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> So I've formulated a theory, what if the increased cohesion among the Orks is actually them subconciously reacting as a race towards the increasing threat of the Necrons? Like on an instinctual level kinda like how the various oddboyz know their trade without any training. Does this sound crazy or do you guys think I could be on to something?


To me it actually makes quite a bit of sense, why else would any1 create a race like the orcs? Not being cursed by nightbringer also aids them 2 that end. The orcs seem perfectly adapted to killing the necrons. Lots of boys that can create unending wars and almost impossible 2 totally whip out of anywhere. Not 2 metion basically every boy is good in cc with is many necron's weakness

I may just be a dillusioned fool but 2 me but orcs look like a good anti apocolyptic harvest race


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

Baron is right. Not every Tomb World is a dead obsolete chunk of rock in space. Many Imperial planets are on Tomb Worlds, and the awakening of the Tomb World is used for annual training (in the BRB on the Necron info pages).

The fact a Tomb World CAN be a thriving planet kind of ruins the 'Tyranids-avoid-Tomb-Worlds' theory, especially when people say 'nothing is worth taking on a Tomb World'. A Imperial-Tomb World would still have biomass that the Tyranids could use, and I'm sure they wouldn't think (because usually they don't ) twice about whether there are Imperials or Space-Skellies on/in it. Yes Tyranids may avoid SOME Tomb Worlds, it may be that those planets are the ones that are a piece of floating space rock, but surely of all the billions of planets, and the planets that are Tomb Worlds, that some must still have functioning life on them. The theory just doesn't carry it's weight too me.

Grish

Grish


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Currently? 

Necrons have destroyed solar systems. 

Necrons have performed countless raids on Imperial worlds, inflicting untold casualties.

Necrons have wiped out at least one space marine chapter, annihilated imperial fleets, decimated Imperial Guard regiments, as well as who knows what against other races.

They are recruiting even more powerful warriors from Humanity. 

Every time they lose, their losses are simply repaired or rebuilt, and they learn more of the enemy.



And this is the "scout" phase.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Someone should just build a gaint living-metal magnet, stick all the necrons to it and then fire it off into the void between galaxies.:crazy:


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## Flayed 0ne (Aug 29, 2010)

with THREE new books on the Horizon (Dead Men Walking, The Fall of Damnos, Hammer & Anvil, not to mention a new Codex) the Necrons will be getting much attention and much needed fluff...lets just hope the writers give them more "life" than mindless automatons they are -often- mistaken for...souless does not mean mindless!...Necrons are mean and spitefull and above all...quite, quite mad :crazy:


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

jfvz said:


> I dont realy think a tomb world would be much more that a mining planet, cause all life and life sustaining chemicals (like water) has been removed to hid them from the daemons unleashed in the war against the old ones


Just to answer this one; 60,000,000 years is probably a lot longer than you think. Many tomb worlds have become populated by humans, eldar, tau and so on. The Nightbringer's tomb was on Pavonis, which had been a human controlled world for many thousand years, for example.

You are also mistaken as to the reason that life was removed from the Necron Tomb Worlds. You should check out the Enslavers - a warp race that invaded the galaxy through the minds of psychics. They were nothing to do with the War in Heaven, and happened some time after, during the time that the C'tan ruled the galaxy and had no effectual opposition in the material realm.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

darklove said:


> Just to answer this one; 60,000,000 years is probably a lot longer than you think. Many tomb worlds have become populated by humans, eldar, tau and so on. The Nightbringer's tomb was on Pavonis, which had been a human controlled world for many thousand years, for example.
> 
> You are also mistaken as to the reason that life was removed from the Necron Tomb Worlds. You should check out the Enslavers - a warp race that invaded the galaxy through the minds of psychics. They were nothing to do with the War in Heaven, and happened some time after, during the time that the C'tan ruled the galaxy and had no effectual opposition in the material realm.


Life was removed from most worlds, but nothing prevented it from re-emerging. It was easy for the Imperium to terraform said worlds.

And I`m pretty sure the enslavers were how the war ended. Remember the c`tan did not want the old ones creations dead, they wanted to feed on them. The war was in their favour, so when the enslavers arose, they had to stop, and wait.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Life was removed from most worlds, but nothing prevented it from re-emerging. It was easy for the Imperium to terraform said worlds.
> 
> And I`m pretty sure the enslavers were how the war ended. Remember the c`tan did not want the old ones creations dead, they wanted to feed on them. The war was in their favour, so when the enslavers arose, they had to stop, and wait.


The Old Ones had lost the War in Heaven by the time the Enslavers became a threat.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

darklove said:


> The Old Ones had lost the War in Heaven by the time the Enslavers became a threat.


Actually before the Enslaver Plague erupted the Old Ones were actually prevailing against the C'tan (of which only four remained), due to the creation of races with an ever greater connection to the warp (Eldar being one such race).



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Specifically the Eldar were created after the Old Ones grew desperate in the War in Heaven, as a chance to fully utilise the power of the warp against the C'tan. Essentially it goes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Necrons are just incredibly boring so they'll avoid doing too much with them. They're only a galaxy wide super threat because ever xeno's race is when they get a new Codex. It's just GW's terrible fiction writing together with their retcon happy nature. 

Aramoro


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> Necrons are just incredibly boring so they'll avoid doing too much with them. They're only a galaxy wide super threat because ever xeno's race is when they get a new Codex. It's just GW's terrible fiction writing together with their retcon happy nature.
> 
> Aramoro


Wrong, buddy. They`ve already been established as potentially the greatest threat to the galaxy and have been for some time. 

Even the newer codexes do not diminish the lethality of the necrons fluffwise, and they remain a potentially lethal force in TT despite what people think. 

Do some research. There are not many victories against them and even those were at high cost.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

As Serpion (ambitious cur) said the Necrons are unsurpassed in their power- the Imperium has *never* won a Naval engagement against the Necrons where the forces were similar in number, and I don't mean tonnage I literally mean pure numbers- even the Astartes need to outnumber the Necrons to have any chance of winning an engagement.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Actually before the Enslaver Plague erupted the Old Ones were actually prevailing against the C'tan (of which only four remained), due to the creation of races with an ever greater connection to the warp (Eldar being one such race).


The Old Ones were almost wiped out, and started to create new races in desperation. This let them hold their own for a short time, but they had already effectively lost. The Warp burst open because of all the new psychic creatures that had been created and that was the final blow. The Enslavers were just one among many Warp spawned dangers to drive them to extinction.
Warp powers are not especially effective against Necrons (they affect Necrons just as much or as little as other races), but they are generally more effective than conventional weapons against Necrons (in the sense that conventional weapons are less effective against Necrons than against most other races - think WBB).


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Wrong, buddy. They`ve already been established as potentially the greatest threat to the galaxy and have been for some time.
> 
> Even the newer codexes do not diminish the lethality of the necrons fluffwise, and they remain a potentially lethal force in TT despite what people think.
> 
> Do some research. There are not many victories against them and even those were at high cost.


Shall I read the fluff from the first encounters with the Necrons when they were just some space undead on one planet. 

Then GW thought hey we may as well make this into a full army, but hmm they're a bit lame. A quick retcon later the greatest threat to the Imperium ever. 

When they get a new Codex they'll be an even bigger threat surpassing the power of the current iteration, and they will have always been this massive threat that we just never heard of before. That's how GW fiction writing works. 

The only interesting, emergent force they have is the Tau. Everyone else is 'oh yeah they've always been here.......just kinda forget to mention them before'

Aramoro


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> As Serpion (ambitious cur) said the Necrons are unsurpassed in their power- the Imperium has *never* won a Naval engagement against the Necrons where the forces were similar in number, and I don't mean tonnage I literally mean pure numbers- even the Astartes need to outnumber the Necrons to have any chance of winning an engagement.


Why be so abrasive, Baron? Ambition never killed anyone... important. :laugh:

And yeah, I`m reminded of the battle in DoW Ascension. A necron fleet engaged the Blood Raven`s armada and the eldar fleet, causing the two forces to cease fighting each other and focus on the necs. And there were only a couple of necron ships engaging them at all. :laugh: 

In the end, it took a blast from the exterminatus cannon (whatever it`s called) to finally destabilise the necron`s capital ship enough to turn the battle around. Even so, there were massive losses, and the survivors didn`t just walk away like nothing had happened. 



Aramoro said:


> Shall I read the fluff from the first encounters with the Necrons when they were just some space undead on one planet.
> 
> Then GW thought hey we may as well make this into a full army, but hmm they're a bit lame. A quick retcon later the greatest threat to the Imperium ever.
> 
> ...


You say that as if it`s a bad thing. They were onto a cool idea, so they expanded on it. Dude, the 40kverse would be as exciting as half a potato if they stuck with nothing but the classic Rogue trader story for all this time. 

It`s a constantly developing hobby on all fronts, move with it or don`t bother.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> You say that as if it`s a bad thing. They were onto a cool idea, so they expanded on it. Dude, the 40kverse would be as exciting as half a potato if they stuck with nothing but the classic Rogue trader story for all this time.
> 
> It`s a constantly developing hobby on all fronts, move with it or don`t bother.


It would be cool if it did develop, rather than getting shoe horned into the background. The Eldar were created to fight the Necron threat and even made giant Necron killing superguns? Did they just forget they had done this in 2nd ed? Maybe Eldrad was just getting old and forgot to recall the purpose for their entire civilisations existence. 

They way they were originally introduced was quite nice, I like that. Rather than the galaxy wide amnesia where they simply forgot they had always been fighting the Necron menace. 

Aramoro


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

To be honest, there is one thing I really want to see from the new codex.

A weakness. atm, they really come across as unstoppable. It would be nice if there was one weakness, one hidden flaw that if discovered, would give the rest of the galaxy a fighting chance. 

It would add so much to the characterisation as well. 

All we have right now is: 
'Hi. I`m a necron. I don`t care if you kill me. I`ll come back to life later. Fuck you.' 

It`s good and all, but just so bland...


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## Catpain Rich (Dec 13, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> To be honest, there is one thing I really want to see from the new codex.
> 
> A weakness. atm, they really come across as unstoppable. It would be nice if there was one weakness, one hidden flaw that if discovered, would give the rest of the galaxy a fighting chance.
> 
> ...


Well they don't seem to be best of friends with the warp.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> To be honest, there is one thing I really want to see from the new codex.
> 
> A weakness. atm, they really come across as unstoppable. It would be nice if there was one weakness, one hidden flaw that if discovered, would give the rest of the galaxy a fighting chance.
> 
> ...


How about a hidden off switch at the base of their neck?:biggrin:


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor 
Specifically the Eldar were created after the Old Ones grew desperate in the War in Heaven, as a chance to fully utilise the power of the warp against the C'tan. Essentially it goes:

•Necrontyr discover and contact the C'tan Nightbringer, ultimately leading to the C'tan's immense consciousness being compressed into Necrodermis shells, and the rise of the Necrons.
•This tips the balance of the War in Heaven firmly to the advantage of the C'tan/Necrons. The Old Ones are sent reeling.
•The Old Ones spawn races and species with an ever greater connection to the warp (one such race being the Eldar) in an attempt to combat the C'tan (who by this point have turned on each other). The C'tan cannot match the warp-magicks of the lesser races are sent reeling.
•The lesser races have an unintended effect on the warp, which grows more turbulent - the Enslaver Plague is unleashed.
•The Old Ones in a last ditch attempt to save their civilisation create warrior-races designed to protect their last strongholds (the Orks being one such race), but it is too little too late, and the Old Ones fall from grace.


Thank you CotE. Too many people for some reason think the Necrons woke up Nightbringer and in a few short years wiped out EVERY RACE almost. Bullshit. The Necs were beaten down almost and forced into Hibernation.



Aramoro said:


> Shall I read the fluff from the first encounters with the Necrons when they were just some space undead on one planet.
> 
> Then GW thought hey we may as well make this into a full army, but hmm they're a bit lame. A quick retcon later the greatest threat to the Imperium ever.
> 
> ...


This whole time I thought I was the only one who notice this bullcrap. They wrote a battle scene of the Nids against the UMs. Then the new dex with new units come out and all of a sudden the never mention before Trygons and Mawlocks that had been there this whole time. Fuk That, stop the retcon. GW 40K is the only bs story book that never progresses, but rather mentions "oh this was here the whole time, oooh ooh lets add this"  Anyone ever seen Stale Water? It doesnt taste good and smells bad. Like 40k lack of story progressing.



Serpion5 said:


> To be honest, there is one thing I really want to see from the new codex.
> 
> 
> A weakness. atm, they really come across as unstoppable. It would be nice if there was one weakness, one hidden flaw that if discovered, would give the rest of the galaxy a fighting chance.
> ...


Well in the few BL books I read shows that if you damage the Nec enough, IT CANNOT COME BACk! Like a Multi Melta, Lascannon, or Demolisher round. Things that destroy you utterly and leave nothing left to repair.


Also whoever mention the Ork uniting idea is really sound. The Old Ones made Orks act on instinct and built the Kno Wats in their genes. Think about it all the high tech shit in the Universe brought down by pure brutalness. WAAAAGH to the Zombie Robots.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

I've never really been a big fan of the Necrons and the Tyranids because they are (fluffwise) essentially the ones who are gonna take over the galaxy, and in the end it'll just be a fight between the two and the only uncertainty is who is gonna win out of the two.

I'll give you a football analogy:
Necrons are Manchester United; they are one of the most successful teams in the prem league and have won the champions league( in WH40k terms, the galaxy) twice, so basically been there done that.

The Tyranids are Chelsea, they are an ever rising force with backing of a rich investor(outside the galaxy) whose main goal is to win the Champions league.

And Chaos are Arsenal. Consistently 4th or 3rd in the tables, has a lot of potential but are never truly the favourites to win the prem league or champions league. Their greatest achievement was nearly winning the Champions league in 2005 but lost in the finals (A la Horus Heresy) and it has been a long time since either of them had any success.


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

jfvz said:


> I dont realy think a tomb world would be much more that a mining planet, cause all life and life sustaining chemicals (like water) has been removed to hid them from the daemons unleashed in the war against the old ones


– and –



WarlordKaptainGrishnak said:


> The fact a Tomb World CAN be a thriving planet kind of ruins the 'Tyranids-avoid-Tomb-Worlds' theory, especially when people say 'nothing is worth taking on a Tomb World'. A Imperial-Tomb World would still have biomass that the Tyranids could use, and I'm sure they wouldn't think (because usually they don't ) twice about whether there are Imperials or Space-Skellies on/in it. Yes Tyranids may avoid SOME Tomb Worlds, it may be that those planets are the ones that are a piece of floating space rock, but surely of all the billions of planets, and the planets that are Tomb Worlds, that some must still have functioning life on them. The theory just doesn't carry it's weight too me.


As has been mentioned, there are tons of Tomb Worlds where other life exists. 
*Necron Codex, pp. 11”*
“In addition, a disturbing pattern has emerged in the movement of the Tyranid Hive Fleet Leviathan. Initial reports appeared to indicate that the Tyranids were encroaching into the galaxy from below the galactic plane in the form of a closing maw, swallowing whole systems in their wake. However, a number of worlds within the centre of this closing maw seem to have been avoided and left unmolested, as astropathic communication in these regions has, as yet, been unaffected by what some scholars term the Shadow of the Warp. There appears to be no logic to their survival, and why the Tyranids should allow some worlds to survive is a mystery that surely warrants further investigation.”

The clear implication is that the Tyranids are avoiding hidden Tomb Worlds, even when those Tomb Worlds have biomass in the form of Human populations (and whatever else is on the surface).



Chompy Bits said:


> On a side note, it has been stated that if all the Orks unite they could crush all opposition but they lack full cohesion as a race and thus aren't the threat they should be. Then, it's also hinted that the Orks are the Old Ones's last ditch attempt to battle the Necs. So I've formulated a theory, what if the increased cohesion among the Orks is actually them subconciously reacting as a race towards the increasing threat of the Necrons? Like on an instinctual level kinda like how the various oddboyz know their trade without any training. Does this sound crazy or do you guys think I could be on to something?


I like that theory a lot – and it wasn’t just the Kork that were last ditch efforts of the Old Ones to stave off defeat; the Eldar fall into that category as well. In might have been a situation of too little too late with the Orks, but now that there are MANY more orks in the galaxy than there presumably were when they were first created, maybe they have a good chance against the Necron this time around!



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Actually before the Enslaver Plague erupted the Old Ones were actually prevailing against the C'tan (of which only four remained), due to the creation of races with an ever greater connection to the warp (Eldar being one such race).


This is actually totally false. 

* Lexicanum: Necron History *
"Now focusing on gathering souls, the C'tan assaulted the dominant species at the time, the Old Ones, and began an unstoppable march upon their domain. The Necrons burst into the Old Ones strongest fortresses, overcoming their magicks and technology and forced the Old Ones to seed planets with life to help fight the C'tan, including the Eldar and Krork. These races had the ability to use the Warp to defend themselves, as the C'tan seemed harmed only by psychic energy. Gradually, the Old Ones were forced back by the relentless push of the C'tan and billions of souls were harvested for the Star Gods, increasing their power to incredible proportions.

The C'tan had been working on a plan to cripple the Old Ones, and eventually it came to fruition. They burst into and destroyed the Webways discovered by the Old Ones. Without these portals, the Old Ones were unable to move troops throughout the galaxy. With the new races using so much Warp power for the purposes of killing, the benign creatures in the Warp mutated into the evil creatures they are today. *At the precipice of victory, the Enslavers emerged from the now-tumultuous Warp and forced the C'tan and their slaves back, by preying on the younger races and starving them of the precious lifeforce they need to feed upon.*” (bolding mine)

The combined might of the Old Ones, the Eldar and the Ork couldn’t stop the Necron harvest, and they were “on the verge” of their final defeat when the C’Tan decided to hibernate to allow the numbers of their food stock to replenish itself. 



Warlock in Training said:


> Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor
> Specifically the Eldar were created after the Old Ones grew desperate in the War in Heaven, as a chance to fully utilise the power of the warp against the C'tan. Essentially it goes:
> 
> •Necrontyr discover and contact the C'tan Nightbringer, ultimately leading to the C'tan's immense consciousness being compressed into Necrodermis shells, and the rise of the Necrons.
> ...


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Catpain Rich said:


> Well the don't seem to be best of friends with the warp.


Unlike everyone else, who share high fives with them all the time.  



Chompy Bits said:


> How about a hidden off switch at the base of their neck?:biggrin:


Ridiculous. It needs to be somewhere less obvious, like on their left little toe.  



Warlock in Training said:


> This whole time I thought I was the only one who notice this bullcrap. They wrote a battle scene of the Nids against the UMs. Then the new dex with new units come out and all of a sudden the never mention before Trygons and Mawlocks that had been there this whole time. Fuk That, stop the retcon. GW 40K is the only bs story book that never progresses, but rather mentions "oh this was here the whole time, oooh ooh lets add this"  Anyone ever seen Stale Water? It doesnt taste good and smells bad. Like 40k lack of story progressing.


Oh, go have a cry.



Warlock in Training said:


> Well in the few BL books I read shows that if you damage the Nec enough, IT CANNOT COME BACk! Like a Multi Melta, Lascannon, or Demolisher round. Things that destroy you utterly and leave nothing left to repair.


Oooooh... Kind of. Had you read it as well as I did :biggrin: you`d have remembered that the necron`s body is not that important on the grand scale. Regardless of damage, a necron`s mind exists within the collective of the tomb complex. If a body is too damaged to recover or repair, they simply build a new one. 

Some of the more eccentric necron lords even go so far as to deliberately upgrade or replace their bodies at every oppurtunity or every whim, becoming manifestations of the star gods image. 

So, sorry Warlock, but a necron is still far harder to kill than any other foe. 



Daneel2.0 said:


> – and –
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First of all, don`t trust Lexicanum. Secondly, read it (the codex) again.

The eldar were created shortly after the necrontyr became the necrons. The Old Ones created them as a powerful psyker race to combat the tech of the necrons.

Flash forward. The Old Ones and their creations are beset by warp predators formed from the growing pains of their warrior races. Then they created the "hardy green skinned krork, and the technology mimicking jokaero, but it was too late." 

The orks were created to resist the enslavers and such, quite a long time AFTER the eldar were made. It can be seen in modern 40k, the eldar are uber psykers that draw on the warp, and the orks generate their own gestalt psionic field, not directly affecting or being affected by, the chaos gods. 

Just in case you want to argue, I`ll pre-empt. 

The codex is Canon. Lexi isn`t.


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## Amoeba Bait (May 31, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Well in the few BL books I read shows that if you damage the Nec enough, IT CANNOT COME BACk! Like a Multi Melta, Lascannon, or Demolisher round. Things that destroy you utterly and leave nothing left to repair.
> .


Just reading through the BRB the other week, on the Necron section and it said somethinig along the lines of 'The more times a Necron "dies" and is rebuilt, the less effective it becomes'. 

I beleive that in the new Codex could be a unit of'fresh' Necrons (think Veteran Imperial Guard) and rusty old Necrons (Think Imperial Guard Conscripts). Close combat is the Necrons weakness, as well as no connection with the warp, so I think that in the new rules, the We'll Be Back will be replaced with something similar to Feel No Pain, with the exeption that things like Daemon weapons and Psykic powers would 'instakill'.

My $0.0. :victory:


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

A necron does not become less effective as it dies more times. It just means that its mind is subject to degeneration with each transference to a new body. So a necron that has "died" hundreds of times will be a mere shadow of its former self, whist the more fortunate among them will still retain a decent semblance of their mind.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> A necron does not become less effective as it dies more times. It just means that its mind is subject to degeneration with each transference to a new body. So a necron that has "died" hundreds of times will be a mere shadow of its former self, whist the more fortunate among them will still retain a decent semblance of their mind.


Genuine question:
So that's why they are like that now? It's not an instantaneous thing when they submitted to the C'Tan but a sort of gradual decline?


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Ridiculous. It needs to be somewhere less obvious, like on their left little toe.


WHAAAT... Necrons have toes?


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> First of all, don`t trust Lexicanum. Secondly, read it (the codex) again.
> 
> The eldar were created shortly after the necrontyr became the necrons. The Old Ones created them as a powerful psyker race to combat the tech of the necrons.
> 
> ...


My mistake concerning the Eldar / Ork. Differing sources say different things; makes it hard to keep track. I'm still not sure about the relative time line with when they were created though. 

And the validity of the Lexi besides, apparently you don't know me very well. *Of course* I want to argue :biggrin:


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

If a Necron's mind degenerates every time it is destroyed and has to be put into a new body, then how can they not degenerate over time? Their personality is ever so slowly wiped out until they are akin to a mere automaton, with no personality but, more importantly, no ability to think for itself. So you end up with a load of robots that just traipse forwards, trying to complete the mission of the Lord, but only using what instructions they've been given, without really responding to the changing conditions around them.
And what happens when the Lord is damaged? Well, the BRB tells us about Lords that appear so regularly that they can be used as training exercises; if the Necron troops had a personality and mind left, then regardless of how potty their Lord is, they would be able to adapt and make the attack work.
What happens to the Imperium? Well, in the depths of despair, it just might be that the AdMech, not wanting to be destroyed (and not really able to allow the Imperium to be destroyed) might let go with some of the secrets they hold, rolling-out weapons that haven't been seen for millenia and maybe actually pushing the development of the tech, not because they want to, but because they _have_ to.
But, how deep are the tombs? What still lurks in there? Will the races of the living unite, however briefly, to try to stop the Necrons and their gods? There's a lot of variables but, whatever, there will be conflict like the galaxy has never seen.

GFP


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

There's an easy way to get rid of the Necs. Just tell Tallahassee form _Zombieland_ that the Necrons are hiding the last stash of Twinkes in the galaxy. They're completely fucked then.


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## jfvz (Oct 23, 2010)

I remember reading a fluff story in the necron codex about SMs who replace the expolisves in bolts with tracking beacons. Kill a warrior, follow the signal 2 the tomb world and blow up the tomb complex. I believe that might just be their weakness as those tombs r poorly defended as the tomb spiders r more concerned with fixing their the necrons then looking out 4 intruders.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Daneel2.0 said:


> This is actually totally false.
> 
> * Lexicanum: Necron History *
> "Now focusing on gathering souls, the C'tan assaulted the dominant species at the time, the Old Ones, and began an unstoppable march upon their domain. The Necrons burst into the Old Ones strongest fortresses, overcoming their magicks and technology and forced the Old Ones to seed planets with life to help fight the C'tan, including the Eldar and Krork. These races had the ability to use the Warp to defend themselves, as the C'tan seemed harmed only by psychic energy. Gradually, the Old Ones were forced back by the relentless push of the C'tan and billions of souls were harvested for the Star Gods, increasing their power to incredible proportions.
> ...


Your challenging me with quotes from Lexicanum? :wacko:

What I said below, is correct in terms of the sequence of the events of the War in Heaven.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Essentially it goes:
> Necrontyr discover and contact the C'tan Nightbringer, ultimately leading to the C'tan's immense consciousness being compressed into Necrodermis shells, and the rise of the Necrons.
> 
> This tips the balance of the War in Heaven firmly to the advantage of the C'tan/Necrons. The Old Ones are sent reeling.
> ...


To back that up from source material:

(following the compression of the C'tan into necrodermis and subsequent rise of the necrons)... 'The C'tan now dominated the galaxy. The last bastions of the Old Ones were besieged and the races they had nurtured became cattle for... the C'tan. C'tan eventually devoured C'tan, until only a few were left...' _(Codex: Necrons, page 25)_

'Eventually even the Old Ones... became desperate. They manipulated life into new forms with an ever stronger link to the warp, desiring minions with the capability of channelling psychic power to defend themselves. They nurtured many potential warrior races... these included the earliest Eldar...' _(Codex: Necrons, page 25)_

'The hot-blooded young races spread across the galaxy, battling Necron science with warp-spawned magicks. The C'tan's empire of destruction was sent reeling... they could not stay the Old Ones' relentless advance.'

(This however results in the eruption of the enslaver plague)

'The Old Ones brought forth newer creations to defend their last strongholds (from the warp entities), like the hardy, green-skinned Krork...' _(Codex: Necrons, page 26)_



Daneel2.0 said:


> •The Old Ones spawn races and species with an ever greater connection to the warp (one such race being the Eldar) in an attempt to combat the C'tan (who by this point have turned on each other). The C'tan cannot match the warp-magicks of the lesser races are sent reeling.
> This is the point where his “history” is incorrect. The C’Tan and the Necron overcame the warp magicks of the other races, including *BOTH* the Eldar and Ork (the Ork were not made post Enslaver Plague, but at roughly the same time as the Eldar).


The C'tan didn't overcome the warp-spawned magicks of the young races, hence why they hatched the plan to seal off the warp. And to clarify, the Orks were created after the Eldar and after the eruption of the enslaver plague. The Eldar were created prior to the enslaver plague and the Orks, during the time of the C'tan's ascendancy.



Daneel2.0 said:


> •The Old Ones in a last ditch attempt to save their civilisation create warrior-races designed to protect their last strongholds (the Orks being one such race), but it is too little too late, and the Old Ones fall from grace.
> And here again, the Ork were made to combat the C’Tan and their slaves. And while the Enslaver Plague was the final nail in the Old One’s coffin, they were already a defeated force by the time that happened.


No they weren't. The Old Ones (by creating highly psychically attuned young races) had sent the C'tan reeling, if anything they were winning the War in Heaven when the enslaver plague erupted.

And also try not to reply in red text, I think it's meant to be reserved for Mods. 



Daneel2.0 said:


> I, quite frankly, don't know how long it took from the discovery of the Nightbringer to the start of the Enslaver Plague.


It's implied to be 'millions of years' - considering the codex notes that following the initial nurturing of the highly psychic attuned races (one being the Eldar, but not the Orks) the C'tan became unified 'for the first times in millions of years'.



Daneel2.0 said:


> before the Old Ones grew so desperate that they Created the Eldar and the Ork and may other races.


The Eldar were created prior to the enslaver plague, the Orks were created after it.



Daneel2.0 said:


> And for a time, the young raced were successful in pushing the C'Tan back - that's true. But once the remaining C'Tan united again that trend stopped, the Old Ones were destroyed and the C'Tan descended into their stasis tombs.


That's not the case at all. The remaining C'tan (that being only four) were forced to unify in order to attempt to save their 'empire of destruction' from the psychically attuned young races. The codex doesn't note at all that when the four remaining C'tan unified they were a match for the young races, it just notes that they hatched a plan to seal off the warp because the young races sent 'their empire of destruction reeling'.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And also try not to reply in red text, I think it's meant to be reserved for Mods.


Cheers CotE sorted it now. Naughty Daneel2.0 :taunt:


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Tyrannus said:


> Genuine question:
> So that's why they are like that now? It's not an instantaneous thing when they submitted to the C'Tan but a sort of gradual decline?


Sort of. Many necrontyr completely lost any sense of identity during the transference. "Only a few of the very strongest reteined their intellects and even they were shadows of their former selves." 

The mental degeneration would apply more to Lords than any others, because most others have little mind left to begin with. However, sources like _Hellforged_, _Xenology_ and the _Dawn of War_ games (dubious) suggest that there are still necrons out there with a glimmer of intellect and personality. 

And of course, we as hobbyists are free to speculate and create our own homebrew units and characters.  



Daneel2.0 said:


> My mistake concerning the Eldar / Ork. Differing sources say different things; makes it hard to keep track. I'm still not sure about the relative time line with when they were created though.
> 
> And the validity of the Lexi besides, apparently you don't know me very well. *Of course* I want to argue :biggrin:


No biggie. At least you can admit a mistake. I have had some infuriating arguments with some members who refuse to see reason. Damn trolls...

Anyhow, there really isn`t an exact timeline, but the rough layout is covered in the necron codex, pages 24-26.



jfvz said:


> I remember reading a fluff story in the necron codex about SMs who replace the expolisves in bolts with tracking beacons. Kill a warrior, follow the signal 2 the tomb world and blow up the tomb complex. I believe that might just be their weakness as those tombs r poorly defended as the tomb spiders r more concerned with fixing their the necrons then looking out 4 intruders.


True, but such a tactic cannot work indefinitely. Not to mention the fact that Tomb worlds seem to be waking up faster than they are being destroyed. 

Also, what`s to stop the necrons from rebuilding in another tomb complex, or simply rebuilding the complex itself? They have the means, and they have the time to do it. 

It depends mainly, I suppose, on whether the necrons are a unified force in the galaxy. Something I am not too sure on myself, there seems to be weight for either argument.


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No they weren't. The Old Ones (by creating highly psychically attuned young races) had sent the C'tan reeling, if anything they were winning the War in Heaven when the enslaver plague erupted.


I don’t know if this is necessarily true. Yes, they sent them reeling, but it’s strongly implied that the C’tan were on the verge of victory before the Enslaver Plague broke out. Whether that means that they had started their “Great Project” to sever off the Warp or that their cooperation had helped, or a combination I don’t know.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And also try not to reply in red text, I think it's meant to be reserved for Mods.


<sigh> Sorry about that too. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Eldar were created prior to the enslaver plague, the Orks were created after it.


Yeah, you must have missed where I said I screwed that one up. 



Baron Spikey said:


> Cheers CotE sorted it now. Naughty Daneel2.0 :taunt:


<sigh again>


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Daneel2.0 said:


> I don’t know if this is necessarily true. Yes, they sent them reeling, but it’s strongly implied that the C’tan were on the verge of victory before the Enslaver Plague broke out. Whether that means that they had started their “Great Project” to sever off the Warp or that their cooperation had helped, or a combination I don’t know.


Well the exact wording is:

'The C'tan's empire of destruction was sent reeling; the forces of the Empyrean were anathema to them and, for all the hellish destruction they had unleashed, *they could not stay the Old Ones' relentless advance.*'

This suggests that the four remaining C'tan could not challenge the psychic might of the young races. However the C'tan called a truce amongst themselves and reunified in an attempt to discover a way to counter the anathemic warp energy that was being unleashed across the galaxy, which of course was their 'great warding' - to forever seperate the empyrean from the material universe. Of course though, before this could be attempted the enslaver plague erupted.

But this then begs the question of why the C'tan didn't continue with their 'great warding' - which would have not only quelled and defeated the magicks of the Old Ones and their nurtured races, but also prevented the enslavers from their continued rampage across the galaxy.

Back to the debate though, the wording doesn't suggest that the C'tan were beating back the Old Ones - it suggests that the C'tan were getting their arses kicked by the young races, and their desperation hatched a plan to safeguard their existence. Its safe to assume that the ultimate outcome of the War in Heaven would have rested on whether or not the C'tan would have been able to complete their 'great warding' before the young races triumphed.



Daneel2.0 said:


> Yeah, you must have missed where I said I screwed that one up.


I did yeah.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> If a Necron's mind degenerates every time it is destroyed and has to be put into a new body, then how can they not degenerate over time? Their personality is ever so slowly wiped out until they are akin to a mere automaton, with no personality but, more importantly, no ability to think for itself. So you end up with a load of robots that just traipse forwards, trying to complete the mission of the Lord, but only using what instructions they've been given, without really responding to the changing conditions around them.
> And what happens when the Lord is damaged? Well, the BRB tells us about Lords that appear so regularly that they can be used as training exercises; if the Necron troops had a personality and mind left, then regardless of how potty their Lord is, they would be able to adapt and make the attack work.
> What happens to the Imperium? Well, in the depths of despair, it just might be that the AdMech, not wanting to be destroyed (and not really able to allow the Imperium to be destroyed) might let go with some of the secrets they hold, rolling-out weapons that haven't been seen for millenia and maybe actually pushing the development of the tech, not because they want to, but because they _have_ to.
> But, how deep are the tombs? What still lurks in there? Will the races of the living unite, however briefly, to try to stop the Necrons and their gods? There's a lot of variables but, whatever, there will be conflict like the galaxy has never seen.
> ...


Sorry man, just noticed this. Probably should have done more than just skim it before... :blush:

Your interpretation of the degeneration is incorrect. Even without an intact mind, a necron is capable of extreme logic. If anything, lack of emotions has only made them mere efficient, as the petty angers and spite of a living creature is not present, so they act with perfect clarity of purpose.


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Back to the debate though, the wording doesn't suggest that the C'tan were beating back the Old Ones - it suggests that the C'tan were getting their arses kicked by the young races, and their desperation hatched a plan to safeguard their existence. Its safe to assume that the ultimate outcome of the War in Heaven would have rested on whether or not the C'tan would have been able to complete their 'great warding' before the young races triumphed.


No, combined with the previous paragraphs, it suggests that they had already won, were pushed back (sent reeling) by the last desperate counter attack of the Old Ones (the Younger Races), and began the Great Warding to finish the job permanently. 

"With their god like powers it was only a matter of time until they succeeded, and the greatest work of the C'Tan was begun."

That doesn't sound like critters acting in desperation, but someone that was dealt a short term defeat and responded by bringing more power to bear on the problem. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> But this then begs the question of why the C'tan didn't continue with their 'great warding' - which would have not only quelled and defeated the magicks of the Old Ones and their nurtured races, but also prevented the enslavers from their continued rampage across the galaxy.


It may be because the great warding wouldn't have defeated the Enslavers - it may have just trapped them out of the Immaterium when the separation was complete. If that's the case, then their cattle would have been killed off the rest of the way anyway. 

That's a totally unsubstantiated guess though :laugh:


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## SnoopyChicken (Sep 23, 2010)

If the Ctan were set to lose then why bother hibernating while the galaxy repopulates? If they cant beat psychic races they might as well go back to feeding off stars.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

SnoopyChicken said:


> If the Ctan were set to lose then why bother hibernating while the galaxy repopulates? If they cant beat psychic races they might as well go back to feeding off stars.


The c`tan are perfectly capable of fighting psyker races. Bear in mind they did not hibernate to escape the enslavers or psykers, they simply went dormant for a time because the enslavers were obliterating their food source.

The plan was simply to hibernate, allowing the warp plague to run its course. In time the galaxy would bring forth new life forms to be mastered and consumed. Remember, for an imortal being, time is not an issue. It may take millions of years, the important thing was to ensure they would be there to see it.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Pretty fragile for immortal beings arnt they? I mean if UMs can threaten Nightbringer with caving him in, have Cegorach (Eldar Laughing God) trick them into eating eachother, Deceaver fearing the Blackstone Fortresses, Void Dragon beaten by the Emperor with a stick into a Mars, or Nightbringer not able to overcome Khain in a fight, well, kinda shows they're not all that totally immortal/powerful to the Warp. I think Uber Psykers and Enslaver Plague could have wiped them out all together.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Nightbringer was more afraid of losing his flagship I believe, which he needs to regain his full strength.

Cegorach being involved is a myth of the harlequins, and if you read the fluff, looks to be unlikely actually.

Deceiver`s unease is natural, wouldn`t you fear something that had been purpose built specifically to destroy you?

Void Dragon beaten by Emperor? He had been hit by afore mentioned weapons, which still failed to kill him, and he was still too much for Big E to destroy outright.

And Khaine vs Nightbringer. Fair enough, Khaine won the duel, but his warriors were massacred by the necron, and Khaine was permanently tainted by that encounter, as was the eldar species themselves. 


No matter how you phrase it, evidence is clear. The ONLY thing to have ever KILLED a c`tan, is an even stronger (or smarter) c`tan.

Twelve (that`s 12) Talismans of Vaul, purpose built for the task of destroying Star Gods, failed to do the job.

Sounds pretty fucking epic to me.

I`ll spare you the list of Chaos and Eldar failures. *cough*Slaanesh*cough*


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

Alright, I've already made a couple of mistakes in this thread, but we'll see how well I can do with these:



Warlock in Training said:


> Pretty fragile for immortal beings aren't they? I mean if UMs can threaten Nightbringer with caving him in


I'm assuming you're talking about his awakening on Pavonis here. A couple of things to remember. First, the Deceiver betrayed the location of his Tomb World before he went into hibernation, and an entire armada tried to kill him. They failed but managed to send some of his vital equipment for maintaining himself in stasis (the flagship Serpion5 talked about) into the Immaterium where he couldn't get it back. He managed to overcome this somewhat by consuming his followers, but emerged from stasis on the verge of starvation.

On top of that, while the UM commander may have thought he could destroy the Nightbringer, I doubt very much that it would have been possible, even in it's weakened state, considering the force required to accomplish it. Instead, had they "killed him", in all probability they would simply have destroyed his living metal body requiring him to get another one - possibly problematic as he hadn't awakened his forces at that point so may not have been able to communicate with them.

But, since they couldn't catch him while he wiped the sleep of millennium from his eyes and went to fill his belly, I guess we won't know.



Warlock in Training said:


> ...have Cegorach (Eldar Laughing God) trick them into eating each other


There's some debate about this point. The harlequin have a legend stating that Cegorach tricked the C'Tan, the Necron Codex says in one place that the Deceiver did it, and in another that we'll probably never know what the real story was.

I personally think it's deliberately kept vague both to represent the incredible amount of time that's elapsed between then and now, and because GW doesn't want to pin the story down so they can change it later if they want too :biggrin:



Warlock in Training said:


> ...Deceiver fearing the Blackstone Fortresses


He didn't fear a single Blackstone fortress, but he did fear the combined firepower of either 3 or 5, which fired together could destroy a star. That was the level of power required to destroy the C'Tan in it's natural form (not the essence trapped in the living metal body). 

So, since he feared their combined might, he manipulated Abbadon into the 13th Black Crusade, and ultimately managed to destroy all but 1 which is such a puny weapon that it's insufficient to destroy a even single planet by itself. Such a silly thing to fear :shok:



Warlock in Training said:


> ...Void Dragon beaten by the Emperor with a stick into a Mars


Maybe; that's still not confirmed just hinted at to the best of my knowledge. 



Warlock in Training said:


> ...Nightbringer not able to overcome Khain in a fight


Again maybe. To the best of my knowledge all the Eldar knowledge concerning that time is fable and myth. It's what they believed happened. If you have a source that indicates this, I'd love to see it.



Warlock in Training said:


> ... well, kinda shows they're not all that totally immortal/powerful to the Warp. I think Uber Psykers and Enslaver Plague could have wiped them out all together.


They're not immortal and the Warp is harmful to them. But at the time there power was at a high point and it's strongly suggested that they didn't retreat because they thought they were going to die, but because if they continued the war, all their food would.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Most counter arguments consist of, "Well thats the Eldar Story, the Necs say this is how it happen..." which makes this argument never ending. I like the Eldar version better since they end up ruling the entire galaxy while the Necs went into hiding.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

That`s just how it will be in these debates. You like your guys, I like mine. 

Anyway, whilst the past is a foggy biased account from either side, the OP is asking more about the future.

On one side, we have a failed empire, a failing empire, and other empires as likely to fight themselves as their enemies.

On the other side, we have a highly advanced (in fact the most highly advanced) technological race that has conserved its power and is slowly beginning to stir, with one primary goal.

All bias aside, I don`t see a lot of hope for the living.



And then there`s the nids.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

yes, but the nids steer clear of the crons for unknown reasons, possibly because they actually fear them and realise they would destroy the Tyranids (and all other life) if they are fully awoken.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

mcmuffin said:


> yes, but the nids steer clear of the crons for unknown reasons, possibly because they actually fear them and realise they would destroy the Tyranids (and all other life) if they are fully awoken.


Or they might just not be fans if chewing on metal, which is completely understandable. I actually had a thought; What it some bio-titan ate a necron warrior but the necron repaired itself inside the titan and came back to life? Worst indigestion ever. 

The Necrons can be eliminated but it would be an enormous undertaking, as you would literally have to find every single tomb world and utterly destroy them so that you can prevent the Necs from just teleporting back to home base and repairing. Currently, there isn't a faction which can afford to do that without leaving themselves open to attack from other races. Not to mention the Necs aren't just gonna sit around and let you do it. As such, defeating the Necrons is possible but only by certain factions who have enough resources and manpower (thus no Eldar, DE or Tau) and it would pretty much obliterate whatever faction attempts to do it (that's why I still think the Orks or Nids have the best shot coz' they can recover from near extinction the quickest). And I'm still only talking harvest faze here. Plus, it still wouldn't solve the problem of the C'Tan.

I wonder what the Necrontyr homeplanet actually looks like nowadays. Uber tombworld?


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

Actually, I think you touched on a great point there. Lets say that somehow you did defeat the Necrons; you killed off all of them, from every tomb world all across the galaxy. The question becomes, "Who cares?". 

It doesn't really address the real threat, which is the C'Tan. When you're fighting against an army that uses slave conscripts, sure the slaves will kill you if you let them, but even if they're not there, you haven't dealt with the responsible party. 

So all the Necrons are dead, and now the C'Tan rebuild their armies using disenfranchised humans, or colonial Eldar, or whatever other race they can get to worship them, just as they did during ages past. It's the threat of the C'Tan that needs to be dealt with.

Just a thought.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

I actually had a question about the Necs. What kind of effect does their gauss weaponry have on living metal? Has there ever been a documented instance where one of the Necrons was hit by one of their own guns? It would be really ironic if the most effective weapons against them are their own.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> I wonder what the Necrontyr homeplanet actually looks like nowadays. Uber tombworld?


Given the insane time frame we`re talking about here, I would assume that the necron home star system is long dead and gone. Stars don`t last forever, you know. 



Chompy Bits said:


> I actually had a question about the Necs. What kind of effect does their gauss weaponry have on living metal? Has there ever been a documented instance where one of the Necrons was hit by one of their own guns? It would be really ironic if the most effective weapons against them are their own.


Gauss weaponry would affect living metal the same way it would affect any other matter. 

Living Metal, or Necrodermis is resistant to ballistics and energy based weapons due to its ability to reshape and reform. This accounts for the necron`s self repair ability, the resilience of all necron constructs (including the c`tan) and their incredible longevity.

However, despite all this, a gauss weapon would still be just as capable of severing the subatomic forces that binds the particles to each other.


I don`t think this has ever been documented, but it is an interesting point...


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## Karnax (Sep 23, 2010)

Personally, I don't see why necrons and tyranids don't work together. Necrons suck out their souls, nids eat the biomass. Simple. Unless the necrons can harvest the HiveMind, which would go a long way to explaining why they are avoiding the necrons.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Karnax said:


> Personally, I don't see why necrons and tyranids don't work together. Necrons suck out their souls, nids eat the biomass. Simple. Unless the necrons can harvest the HiveMind, which would go a long way to explaining why they are avoiding the necrons.


Allow me to elaborate...

The c`tan (not necrons) do not feed on _souls_. They draw energy from the physical energy of a living being, body heat, bioelectricity and whatnot. The process of feeding literally leaves a shrivelled husk, barely more than a sack of skin and bone. The necrons and c`tan despise anything to do with the warp.

The necrons themselves are a military force designed to oppress the chosen cattle and put down any threats to the c`tan dominion. Technically, they do not feed at all.

Then you have the tyranids, who consume the flesh to increase their numbers. They make limited use of the warp to use as a weapon and instrument of interference, and they operate on a completely different level of thought than any other sentient race.

To be frank, this alliance is even more unlikely than c`tan and chaos powers teaming up. 

Just so you know...


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## Karnax (Sep 23, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Allow me to elaborate...
> 
> The c`tan (not necrons) do not feed on _souls_. They draw energy from the physical energy of a living being, body heat, bioelectricity and whatnot. The process of feeding literally leaves a shrivelled husk, barely more than a sack of skin and bone. The necrons and c`tan despise anything to do with the warp.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that Serpion. What does the Hivemind consist of exactly? It's not warp energy, but if it is one of the things you said before, (bioelectricity, energy etc), could the C'tan consume it?


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## Eremite (Aug 27, 2010)

Karnax said:


> Thanks for that Serpion. What does the Hivemind consist of exactly? It's not warp energy, but if it is one of the things you said before, (bioelectricity, energy etc), could the C'tan consume it?


It's the mind of every tyranid in a given hive fleet telepathically linked, though the main focii are the queens and hiveships, with most synapses acting as relays and signal boosters. The basic 'unit' is either a tyranid or their neural cells. 

The c'tan could feed on a hive fleet (one wonder why they don't - more energy there than a planet, if you catch it at the right time), but only the hive mind if they ate all the main synapse creatures. It's a psychic phenomena, which is (as has been stated) out of their jurisdiction.


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## Catpain Rich (Dec 13, 2008)

Deceiver/Cegorach questions:
Can the C'tan go into the webway? (as that's where codex:eldar says Cegorach is)
Wouldn't it be awesome if the uniting factor of the eldar race (harlies) were actually under the deceiver's control?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Catpain Rich said:


> Deceiver/Cegorach questions:
> Can the C'tan go into the webway? (as that's where codex:eldar says Cegorach is)
> Wouldn't it be awesome if the uniting factor of the eldar race (harlies) were actually under the deceiver's control?


The webway is a realm between the warp and realspace. Eldar are able to travel between, in their physical forms so there is no physical reason why a c`tan in its necrodermis couldn`t.

But you are _not_ suggesting that the Deceiver and Cegorach are the same entity. :threaten:


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## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> But you are _not_ suggesting that the Deceiver and Cegorach are the same entity. :threaten:



But he is the DECEIVER, so its not out of the question. 

I mean cmon, the guy spends his time epically trolling the entire universe, sometimes for no reason whatsoever.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Deathscythe4722 said:


> But he is the DECEIVER, so its not out of the question.


Ah crap, not this again?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Catpain Rich said:


> Deceiver/Cegorach questions:
> Can the C'tan go into the webway? (as that's where codex:eldar says Cegorach
> is)


As _Serp_ said, there is currently no reason to believe that the webway would be inaccessible to the C'tan. Just as hard to access, but no reason to believe it inaccessible.



Serpion5 said:


> But you are _not_ suggesting that the Deceiver and Cegorach are the same entity. :threaten:


That isn't as improbable as you seem to suggest. Cegorach and the C'tan Deceiver being one and same entity is a vague possibility.


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## Catpain Rich (Dec 13, 2008)

Not suggesting that at all I was merely seeing if it was possible given the fluff for both 

Oh and how long has the Deceiver been awake for? Because obviously it would have to have been at least 10,000 years for him to be Cegorach (having danced away from slaanesh at the fall)


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> That isn't as improbable as you seem to suggest. Cegorach and the C'tan Deceiver being one and same entity is a vague possibility.


Read Necron Codex thoroughly, the history section and the Deceiver`s entry. Rumours that the Laughing God tricked the Outsider into consuming its brothers are unlikely to be true. The c`tan were reduced to four in numbers _before_ the eldar were created, and thus _before_ the Eldar gods "existed." 

I`m not saying they never impersonated each other, but I do believe the evidence to be fairly solid that they are seperate entities. 

Have a read, _Fluff King._ 



Catpain Rich said:


> Not suggesting that at all I was merely seeing if it was possible given the fluff for both
> 
> Oh and how long has the Deceiver been awake for? Because obviously it would have to have been at least 10,000 years for him to be Cegorach (having danced away from slaanesh at the fall)


Actually, it would have to be a bit longer given that the Harlequins worshipped Cegorach since the Fall. Supposedly, the Harlequins were birthed when Slaanesh consumed the Eldar. Slaanesh could not consume Cegorach, finding no sustanence in the god`s mocking laughter. _The fact that the two gods came face to face is further evidence that The Deceiver cannot be Cegorach, as a c`tan cannot exist in the warp, and thus cannot come face to face with a god of Chaos._ Cegorachs tears of laughter became the souls of the Harlequins.


And to my knowledge, the Deceiver woke several milleniia after the Horus Heresy. I`ve heard conflicting tales, so I`m actually unsure :blush: but I think it was sometime during M35.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Nightbringer was more afraid of losing his flagship I believe, which he needs to regain his full strength.
> 
> 
> Void Dragon beaten by Emperor? He had been hit by afore mentioned weapons, which still failed to kill him, and he was still too much for Big E to destroy outright.
> ...


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## Catpain Rich (Dec 13, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Actually, it would have to be a bit longer given that the Harlequins worshipped Cegorach since the Fall. Supposedly, the Harlequins were birthed when Slaanesh consumed the Eldar. Slaanesh could not consume Cegorach, finding no sustanence in the god`s mocking laughter. _The fact that the two gods came face to face is further evidence that The Deceiver cannot be Cegorach, as a c`tan cannot exist in the warp, and thus cannot come face to face with a god of Chaos._ Cegorachs tears of laughter became the souls of the Harlequins.
> 
> 
> And to my knowledge, the Deceiver woke several milleniia after the Horus Heresy. I`ve heard conflicting tales, so I`m actually unsure :blush: but I think it was sometime during M35.


Sounds reasonable to me  Doesn't mean i won't try and squeeze in some harlequins into my necron apocalypse army when i get it 

On the subject of which is the bigger menace necrons or c'tan, I think you underplay the necrons a lot CofE. Simply because the c'tan need the necrodermis that the necrons supply to be able to interact with other living things (or so i am led to believe).


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Read Necron Codex thoroughly, the history section and the Deceiver`s entry. Rumours that the Laughing God tricked the Outsider into consuming its brothers are unlikely to be true. The c`tan were reduced to four in numbers _before_ the eldar were created, and thus _before_ the Eldar gods "existed."
> 
> I`m not saying they never impersonated each other, but I do believe the evidence to be fairly solid that they are seperate entities.
> 
> Have a read, _Fluff King._


I said it was a *vague* possibility, which I stand by, because it is a *vague* possibility that they are the same entity. It isn't impossible.

You also have to remember that the Eldar gods are enigmas in and of themselves. We don't know where the myths start and reality ends or indeed vice versa. We also don't know their true nature, it could be that they are ascended Old Ones as some suggest and therefore could have existed (in some form) during the civil war of the C'tan - therefore plausibly validating the Laughing God causing the C'tan civil war rather than the Deceiver (or as the same entity). Or it could be that (as they are almost certainly warp entities to some degree) as time is essentially meaningless within the immaterium that Cegorach was able to turn the C'tan on each other prior to the Eldar even existing.

May not be that likely, but it's still a vague possibility. 



Catpain Rich said:


> I think you underplay the necrons a lot CofE. Simply because the c'tan need the necrodermis that the necrons supply to be able to interact with other living things (or so i am led to believe).


I do? It's been a long while seen I read what I wrote previously in this thread. But may I ask how do you mean?


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## Catpain Rich (Dec 13, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I do? It's been a long while seen I read what I wrote previously in this thread. But may I ask how do you mean?


I can't find it anymore maybe you didn't actually say it  My bad haha


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Gromrir Silverblade said:


> Serpion5 said:
> 
> 
> > Nightbringer was more afraid of losing his flagship I believe, which he needs to regain his full strength.
> ...


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

So how come the Necrons havn't ALL risen at the same time? IS it jsut because it would be unfair because that makes sense to me.


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## Ordo epitaphiorum (Nov 13, 2010)

Well, they wouldn't obviously say "We didn't wake up all at the same time because it would be unfair to the mortals", wouldn't they?
They wake up when they will be disturbed by intelligent races. Or the activities of them are detected by sensors or whatever the necrons use. And, when one tomb world finally awakens, they will send messages, and the flood of the undead starts to wash the galaxy clean of war and the infection of life.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Androxine Vortex said:


> So how come the Necrons havn't ALL risen at the same time? IS it jsut because it would be unfair because that makes sense to me.


Well, they didn`t exactly set alarm clocks...

Like Ordo said, they need to be woken by sensing a life presence. A powerful warp presence usually indicates life, often caused by human settlements. Presumably, orks and other races have made the mistake as well. 

The eldar seem to know better though... :wink:


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