# Horus vs Abaddon (in a vacuum)



## texcuda (Aug 17, 2010)

So.....Horus (Pre-Heresy) vs Abaddon the Despoiler...

This has probably been hashed out before but what if somehow this was to come to fruition, IDC how honestly I'm just wondering if Horus would have the goods to put down Abaddon in his current regalia.

I know its a BS question b/c the likelyhood of Ezekiel turning traitor without Horus is damn near slim to none but I think it would make an interesting fight; the greatest warrior pre heresy (exempting the emp of course) vs the current baddest CSM. Well.......:read:


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

I gotta go with the Despoiler for this fight as its set up. We have Abaddon with ten thousand years of fighting, one of (if not) the most powerful daemon weapons, and the favour of all four chaos gods bound into one package.

On the other side you have the greatest of the twenty primarchs, but in the end thats all pre-Heresy Horus has going for him.


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## chand223 (Mar 19, 2010)

darkreever said:


> I gotta go with the Despoiler for this fight as its set up. We have Abaddon with ten thousand years of fighting, one of (if not) the most powerful daemon weapons, and the favour of all four chaos gods bound into one package.
> 
> On the other side you have the greatest of the twenty primarchs, but in the end thats all pre-Heresy Horus has going for him.


If you count the favor of four chaos gods as a bonus for the Despoiler, youve got to do the same for Horus. 

Basically to me, youve got to weigh the experience of 10k years of fighting and a badass Daemon Sword vs. A Primarch, who is a fair deal deadlier then any space marine.

I would have to think Horus would still win. The Despoilers biggest advantage is the sword.


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## texcuda (Aug 17, 2010)

Have any form of stats ever been released/hypothesized for Horus? I know that doesn't count for much once fluff in proper context is brought in but it might provide a starting point.

My general thinking is Horus would have the upper hand barring a lucky hit from Abaddon and his deamon sword. As stated previously the greatest of the 20 primarchs vs a jumped up SM. k:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Horus may be the "greatest," but he isn't the greatest fighter. However, since Abaddon seems to allergic to victory, I am voting for Horus. Besides, pre-heresy Horus was my favorite primarch, other than Russ of course,


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

If it was a pre-corruption Horus, then Abaddon would win; Horus hasn't got the psychic chops to make it the 'total war' fight it would have to be to put his opponent down. Much like the Emperor needed to fight psychically and physically.
If it was a post-corruption, Pre-Heresy Horus, with the Anathame in his hand, weel that's a different story altogether. I still think Abaddon would kill Horus, but he probably wouldn't survive.

GFP


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

I'm going to assume that the OP means Pre-Heresy loyalist Horus with no Anathame or anything like that. If I'm wrong correct me OP.

As for the fight itself, Abaddon wins. Was't Horus wounded by a regular human who became a Chaos Champion in False Gods? (I think the Champion had the anathame though) Abaddon is leaps and bounds ahead of that dude who fought Horus.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Gree said:


> As for the fight itself, Abaddon wins. Was't Horus wounded by a regular human who became a Chaos Champion in False Gods? (I think the Champion had the anathame though) Abaddon is leaps and bounds ahead of that dude who fought Horus.


It was a chaos champion of nurgle who indeed had the anathame. In fact, the champion barely managed to cut him, it was the nature of the waepon that did the damage. 

If they had to face in the situation the OP suggested (normal Horus vs chaos lord Abaddon), then I think it would depend on Abaddon's sword. If he gets a clean hit with Drach'nyen then Horus is toast but if Horus can get Drach'nyen out of the equation somehow then Abaddon is getting a primarch-sized boot up his ass.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Like people have said, it all depends on which Horus we are talking about.

If its post-traitor Horus, i don't care whether Abbadon has his fancy deamon sword or not, Horus would win every single day of the week for me. Shit, he laid a smach down on the fricking Emperor, who true was holding back to a degree, but even so. And if Horus has the anathame with him, Abbadons even more screwed.

Pre-traitor Horus? If he has the anathame i still think he wins, and even without it i think he could still pull it off, especially if he could take Drach'nyen out of the picture like Chompy Bits said.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> It was a chaos champion of nurgle who indeed had the anathame. In fact, the champion barely managed to cut him, it was the nature of the waepon that did the damage.
> 
> If they had to face in the situation the OP suggested (normal Horus vs chaos lord Abaddon), then I think it would depend on Abaddon's sword. If he gets a clean hit with Drach'nyen then Horus is toast but if Horus can get Drach'nyen out of the equation somehow then Abaddon is getting a primarch-sized boot up his ass.


Well, then it depends if Abaddon can get a good hit in with his daemon sword. Given that that dude was able to manage to cut Horus and Abaddon is leaps and bounds ahead of that Nurgle Champion in every possible way, Abaddon should have a fairly good chance of getting it in.

Abaddon has a good chance of defeating Pre-Heresy loyalist Horus.

Heresy-era Horus of course curbstomps him.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The fight had little to do with Tenba, it was all about the Anathame


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

There is no way Abbadon could ever win because he worships the ground Horus stands on, Horus could click his fingers and Abbadon would lay down his life in an instance.
Although now that Horus is dead and Abbadon is in charge he might be a bit reluctant to let go of the reigns, I heard he destroyed a cloning experiment to clone Horus so he is a bit of a hypocritical backstabbing sneaky bastard.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

MuSigma said:


> There is no way Abbadon could ever win because he worships the ground Horus stands on, Horus could click his fingers and Abbadon would lay down his life in an instance.


Actually, once Horus was defeated the love and devotion Abaddon had for him almost instantly dried up. He is one of the first, if not the first, to decry Horus as weak and a fool who had the galaxy in his grip and let it slip away. Post Heresy, the Despoiler ends up having nothing but hatred for his now dead primarch.


And for those of you who are even hinting to throw Heresy era Horus into the fight:


texcuda said:


> So.....Horus (*Pre-Heresy*) vs Abaddon the Despoiler...


The OP was clear on before or during the Heresy for Horus. So all people can argue for him is whether its pre-anethema or not.


texcuda, if you would be so kind as to clarify which Horus you mean for this fight (pre wounding at Davin or after the wounding.)


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## Turkeyspit (Jun 11, 2010)

darkreever said:


> I gotta go with the Despoiler for this fight as its set up. We have Abaddon with ten thousand years of fighting, one of (if not) the most powerful daemon weapons, and the favour of all four chaos gods bound into one package.
> 
> On the other side you have the greatest of the twenty primarchs, but in the end thats all pre-Heresy Horus has going for him.


Pretty much agree here. Horus was simply a Primarch, while Abaddon however, is not only a Daemon Lord, but _the chosen_ of all four chaos gods.

I not sure I agree that Horus was 'the greatest' of the Primarchs though. I don't believe he was genetically or intellectually superior to his brethren. From what I understand, he was simply a better leader, general and diplomat, which qualified him as the best to fill the role of Warmaster. But I bet Ferros Manus was better in the forge :victory:


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Turkeyspit said:


> Pretty much agree here. Horus was simply a Primarch, while Abaddon however, is not only a Daemon Lord, but _the chosen_ of all four chaos gods.


Abaddon is a chaos lord not a daemon lord. There's a really big difference.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

MuSigma said:


> Although now that Horus is dead and Abbadon is in charge he might be a bit reluctant to let go of the reigns, I heard he destroyed a cloning experiment to clone Horus so he is a bit of a hypocritical backstabbing sneaky bastard.


It was my understanding that what Fabius basically created were a bunch of twisted, mutated parodies of the real Primarch. If Fabius Bile and the EC could create ''true'' Primarch clones then they would not bother with making regular Marines anymore.



darkreever said:


> Actually, once Horus was defeated the love and devotion Abaddon had for him almost instantly dried up. He is one of the first, if not the first, to decry Horus as weak and a fool who had the galaxy in his grip and let it slip away. Post Heresy, the Despoiler ends up having nothing but hatred for his now dead primarch.


I think it's deeper than that actually. I think Abaddon has a bit of self-loathing in himself as well. I think the loss of Horus hurt him hard and he covered it up like that. Of course that's how I always interpreted the Black Legion myself.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

chand223 said:


> If you count the favor of four chaos gods as a bonus for the Despoiler, youve got to do the same for Horus.


I don't believe Horus is ever explicity mentioned as having the mark of chaos ascendent, like Abaddon enjoys.

Abaddon the Despoiler versus *pre-Heresy* Horus? I would probably give my vote to Abaddon. Having the clear favour of the chaos gods, and protected by them, as well as bearing one of the most powerful weapons in 40k lore would trump Horus in my opinion.


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## Alpha Legionnaire (Oct 15, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I don't believe Horus is ever explicity mentioned as having the mark of chaos ascendent, like Abaddon enjoys.
> 
> Abaddon the Despoiler versus *pre-Heresy* Horus? I would probably give my vote to Abaddon. Having the clear favour of the chaos gods, and protected by them, as well as bearing one of the most powerful weapons in 40k lore would trump Horus in my opinion.


Just throwing it out there but on the tabletop my monies on Horus.

Last edition a daemon prince with the soul axe(Or whatever) could wipe out abadabbadoobadon before he swung a single time.


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## texcuda (Aug 17, 2010)

Pre Heresy non Anethame equipped Horus.

The "GOOD" Horus for lack of a better term. 

As for Tenba(the previously mentioned Chaos Lord who wounded him on Davin) Tenba was simply a vessel for the swords power. Once it was attuned, a deaf mute clown would have the same results. So for those arguing about the chaos lord portion of that equation its a non starter.

I still think PreHeresy Horus has a fighting chance here.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Alpha Legionnaire said:


> Just throwing it out there but on the tabletop my monies on Horus.
> 
> Last edition a daemon prince with the soul axe(Or whatever) could wipe out abadabbadoobadon before he swung a single time.


And this edition I've had Abaddon casually destroy Daemon Princes, Carnifexes and Bloodthirsters.

Rules change each Codex, what exactly is your point here?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

My Vote is on Abaddon all the way. Primarchs have felt the sting of SMs just as much as SMs feel the sting of a Guardsman with a Lascannon. No point in saying "Oh hes a Primarch and Abaddon is not, Horus wins." Thats pointless, a DP Angron with Blood Thirsters was beaten by 100 GKs, so powerful enough little guys pull epic wins. 
Also Pre Heresy Horus is just a genetic badass, that all. Abbaddon has all four marks, Horus Talon, his uber bitch be good DW, and his trusty Termie Armore. Abaddon has as much knowledge as Pre Heresy Horus. 
In no way can I see how Pre Heresy Horus is superior. Is he psychic like Magnus, no. Is he as physicaly daunting as Russ, or Angron, no. Is he slick like Alpha/Omegon, not really. So what advantage he has that Abaddon doesn't?


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## chand223 (Mar 19, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I don't believe Horus is ever explicity mentioned as having the mark of chaos ascendent, like Abaddon enjoys.


Perhaps your right, as its been a long time since I have read the collected visions. If I remember correctly, the wording went something to the effect of Withdrawing their influence from Horus once they saw that he was done for. I had taken this to mean that he also enjoyed their boons (I.E. possibly the mark of Chaos Ascendent), but now thinking about it, it may have been them just relinquishing their control over him.


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## Vulpter (Oct 15, 2010)

If Abaddon is such a badass, how did he lose 13 black crusades on the trot whereas Horus only lost one and pretty much set up the Emperium vs Chaos showdown that has lasted for 10+ Millenium. Sure Abaddon has beaten everyone in a single fight but he's never actually had to go toe to toe with the emperor. However being pre-heresy Horus I reckon Abaddon would win. But it would be damn close.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Vulpter said:


> If Abaddon is such a badass, how did he lose 13 black crusades on the trot


He hasn't.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Vulpter said:


> If Abaddon is such a badass, how did he lose 13 black crusades on the trot whereas Horus only lost one and pretty much set up the Emperium vs Chaos showdown that has lasted for 10+ Millenium. .


How has he lost 13 Black Crusades? We have very litle information on how only a few of the Crusades went. We don't know exactly what went on in the majority of them, or any of Abaddon's plans or objectives for each crusade. The first was only turned back with the loss of a Primarch, the 12th was made to get the Blackstones and prepare for the 13th, Abaddon appearantly thought two was suffficent for the 13th.

In fact the 13th Black Crusade is still inconsclusive as of now. We have very little information on Abaddon's miltary descisions or the outcomes of each Crusade, or the nature of each crusade. In fact the 3.5 Chaos Codex says that some of the Black Crusades were in fact just raids by elite companies of Chaos Marines, others were massive invasions.

In other words you can't really say Abaddon has failed when we have such little information about the exact nature of the conflicts.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Gree said:


> The first was only turned back with the loss of a Primarch,


Don't forget that a major aim of the first was the obtaining of Drach'nyan, the Despoiler's power only increased because of that feat.

Its easy for most people to decry Abaddon a failure without much to prove it, because they are going on the basis of the aim for all black crusades being the complete and utter destruction of the Imperium and the killing of the Emperor.

The first certainly was not so, and neither was the twelfth. Hell one of them, I believe, was designed solely to get fleets and warbands of chaos forces out of the eye of terror in order to cause trouble for the Imperium where-ever and whenever they chose. (There was even a black crusade that nearly wiped out the Blood Angels, and that was not even their intended goal from what information we have; imagine what would happen if Abaddon ever turned his sights on wiping out some of the founding chapters.)


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I'd go with Horus. What Horus was able to do to the Emperor is actually pretty interesting if he really didn't have Chaos Ascendant.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> I'd go with Horus. What Horus was able to do to the Emperor is actually pretty interesting if he really didn't have Chaos Ascendant.


Problem with that is your looking at the wrong Horus for the fight. Pre Heresy-era Horus, prior to his wounding at Davin.


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## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

I'm going with Horus on this one. From a purely rules standpoint, i don't think Abbadon has what it takes to take down a Primarch in single combat.

WS7 is good but not the best, and i'm assuming Horus would be in the WS 9-10 range.
Only 4 wounds, relying on a 4++ to keep him safe. Great, but again not the best. Only a 50% chance to save, and he WILL be wounded.
I6, at best he's strikeing simultaneously with Horus, but im betting big H has I7
T5 won't be enough to save him from being easily wounded by a Primarch
Horus will be sporting a 4++ at minimum, but i'd guess a 3++ for sheer badassery, so unless Abby rolls high on his +d6 he's having trouble landing wounds.

His saving graces are S8/rerolls and the potential of 10 attacks thanks to Drach'nyen. I'm not saying Horus would get off unscathed, but Abby is going down.



EDIT: It heavily implied in Abbadons "Mark of Chaos Ascendant" rule that Horus also had one. The entry states that Abbadon "Has proved the equal of his mentor Horus ". If Horus hadn't had a Chaos Ascendant then the entry would probably be more along the lines of Abbadon surpassing him in the eyes of the gods or some such melodramatic crock.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Sigh too many people are assuming this is the Horus who fought the Emperor and not the Horus who barley survive a run in with Temba. Everyone know Chaos Horus would kick Abby's ass, but Loyaltist Horus (WHO DOES NOT HAVE ANY CHAOS FAVORE) would get his ass kicked by Current Abby.


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## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

Well to be fair to Horus, Temba had a series of major advantages:

-He was Horus' friend, so Horus had doubts about killing him.
-Temba had Nurgle flowing out his ears. You only gain that sort of massive resilience if you dedicate fully to Nurgle.
-Temba had the super magical maguffin of Primarch insta-kill that Erebus gave him. He didn't land anything even close to a fatal blow, his magic super-sword only almost killed him after the fact (a power Drach'nyen doesn't have).

Even after all that, Horus still managed to kill him.

Also, to avoid misunderstanding, my post WAS talking about pre-Davin Horus.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Sigh too many people are assuming this is the Horus who fought the Emperor and not the Horus who barley survive a run in with Temba. Everyone know Chaos Horus would kick Abby's ass, but Loyaltist Horus (WHO DOES NOT HAVE ANY CHAOS FAVORE) would get his ass kicked by Current Abby.


It would really suck to get your ass kicked by a guy who has been nicknamed Abby.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

:laugh: Warmaster of the Fallen Legions. Scourge of Mankind. Master of the Eye of Terror. The One, the Only......... Abby.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> :laugh: Warmaster of the Fallen Legions. Scourge of Mankind. Master of the Eye of Terror. The One, the Only......... Abby.


It reminds me of that cartoon _Rocko's Modern Life_ where the ruler of 'Heck', their version of hell, is called Peaches.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Deathscythe4722 said:


> I'm going with Horus on this one. From a purely rules standpoint, i don't think Abbadon has what it takes to take down a Primarch in single combat.


Rules change every edition, plus we have no idea about any rules Horus would have had.



Deathscythe4722 said:


> -Temba had the super magical maguffin of Primarch insta-kill that Erebus gave him. He didn't land anything even close to a fatal blow, his magic super-sword only almost killed him after the fact (a power Drach'nyen doesn't have).


Drach'nyen warps reality and has penetrated a three-meter thick adamanite gate.



> It was pierced with but a single portal, a mighty gate of adamantium, fully three metres thick, but Abaddon cared not. He boasted that he would feast on the Kromarch's kin and led the charge of the gate himself. The Citadel was a masterpiece of military engineering and barely one in ten of Abaddon's warriors survived to reach the gate. To either side, enemy weapons prevented their retreat, but Abaddon laughed, raising his sword wreathed in black flames high above his head and smote the gate a blow that smashed it to splinters and shook the very foundations of the citadel.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

I'm all up for rooting for Abby, Warmaster of Chaos because of reason already stated. 

Pre-Heresy Horus was not so impressive without his DW and influence of the Gods. 

Though I do recall in old fluff that he fought along side the Emperor in many battles during the Great Crusade before the Emperor retired and even saved the Emperor on one occasion from a rampaging Warboss. Horus is truly a magnificient warrior who could spar with the likes of Russ, Sanguine, and I'm pretty sure he's sparred with the Emperor before, but that last part is just speculation. 

He is not a foe to be underestimated as Horus was both sly and witty as he was charismatic. I'm pretty sure he would find a way to beat Abbaddon in battle, because if your disadvantaged you will fight to even the battle, so that would mean he would somehow find a way to part abby's DW away from him. Abby is also a very good warrior being the 2nd in command and had his 10k years of experience. 

I think Horus's Primarch Physique though completely makes up for the disadvantage he has going up against a Favored Chaos Warmaster like abby with a DW.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Horus may be the "greatest," but he isn't the greatest fighter. However, since Abaddon seems to allergic to victory, I am voting for Horus. Besides, pre-heresy Horus was my favorite primarch, other than Russ of course,


hahaha

I saw Horus. After all, he is a Primarch


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## The_Reaper (Apr 22, 2012)

I take it that many of you guys havent read many of the HH novels. The primarchs were literally overpowered gods, Vulkan defeated 100 dark eldar bandits at a young age with a hammer and tossed around tanks like toys, Lorgar defeated An'ggrath, Sanguinius defeated a bloodthirster who slaughtered 500 marines in one stride, Ferrus Magnus drowned a necron contruct in lava with his bare hands, Fulgrim punched a destroyed an Avatar of Khaine with his bare fists. The list goes on and on and Horus was definitely up there along with leman, angron, and Sang.

1. 10,000 years of fighting experience dosent help if you are fighting anything less of a primarch.
2. Though Abaddon is favored by the Chaos Gods it dosent really mean he is unstoppable or protected. Eldrad Ultrhan beat and injured him in battle and the Chaos Gods literally just stood there. I think the mark of chaos acsendant and the four marks are geared more toward the table top game it dosent mean Abaddon is a psychic, disease filled, bloodthirsty, pleasure seeking Chaos champion.
3. Temba was a champion of nurgle who was more resilient than a space marine and not an ordinary human and before Horus was cut with the anathame, horus dealth blows to Temba that would normally injure of fatally wound a normal being. It is because of Tembas resilience that he was able to cut horus.
4.Abaddon though a formidable warrior is nothing without his DW,the only strength he has shown in fluff is breaking a 3 meter adamantium wall, the primarchs could probably do that with their bare fists if you read the HH novels you'll know how strong they were.

I think Horus takes this one, though im a fan of abaddon I still dont think he is on the level of Horus


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

Why are people only so down on Primarchs? I don't care how pimped Abbadon is, loyalist Horus does him every time, he's a 'fugging' Primarch! Doubly so if Horus knew what he was dealing with - the Despoiler's only hope would be Horus underestimating his toys.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Given that Eldrad Ulthuan of all people nearly killed Abaddon and Horus is well, a Primarch, i'm giving this to Horus. 

His being a Primarch makes up for Abaddon's godly favour. As a Primarch he's just as infused with warp power, if not more so, than Abaddon. Look at the feats of the Primarchs during the Great Crusade. Leman Russ punched a titan out, Fulgrim choked a Avatar, at Istvaan the Primachs scythed through Astartes effortlessly. 

Horus would be faster, stronger and more resilient than Abaddon. No Space Marine has ever compared to a Primarch. 

As an aside do we have much evidence of Abaddon's Post-Heresy combat prowess or record? We know he was considered one of the deadliest Legionaries but Post-Heresy does anyone know of his personal combat exploits? It would help to gauge his skill/power level in comparison to Horus.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Well it all depends if Abby rolls a one or not...


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Abaddon. Primarch alone doesn't guarantee a win despite what some may think. 

I would think that to be perfectly clear, what with many of them being dead. Pit one against a super Chaos infused Lord with the most uber of Daemon weapons and I back said Lord every time. 


This one goes easily to Abaddon.


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## The_Reaper (Apr 22, 2012)

Thought we were comparing primarchs or horus in particular that were alive pre heresy to the current abaddon. Chaos infused dosent mean he is actually unstoppable, remember he still got hurt by eldrad. A clean hit from the primarchs can probably do a serious amount of damage just as much as abaddon's sword due to their incredible strength, primarchs being able to punch through power armour with bare fists etc. If abaddon was nigh unstoppable as people described him as such he wouldnt need an army. Abaddon's DW is not as powerful as you think a clean hit from a power weapon wielded by a strong user can probably do similar amounts of damage (talking about fluff wise).


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

Which one gets the claw?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Horus. And here's why:

1) Horus was one of the best fighters amongst the Primarchs.
2) We've seen Primarchs (even 'weak' ones like Lorgar) go through Astartes like a hot knife through air. We've also seen them defeat some of the most powerful servants of the Gods before.
3) The favour of the Gods is fickle at best and in no way guaranteed to give Abaddon an edge. We have seen them withdraw that favour before (from Horus) and have seen it have little effect (against Eldrad).
4) Abaddon was defeated by Eldrad, an individual not exactly know for his fighting skills.
5) The Temba fight doesn't really speak that badly of Horus. Horus deals multiple wounds that should be fatal before Temba deals him a scratch (and that's all it is). This fight only ends badly for Horus because of the incredible power of the Anthema, which is greater than that of Drach'nyen.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Abbaddon and here's why:

1. We've seen even half-Astartes like Kor Phaeron and Luther able to go toe to toe with Primarchs using Chaos juice. Abaddon is waaaay above that level. 

2. The Daemon Primarchs know that they follow the new warmaster and supply whatever he demands. 

3. Horus was pretty much the equal of everyone as far as fighting. His greatness was in his leadership and charisma. The only guy he easily trumped was Lorgar like everyone else, and that diminished after what we saw in Aurelian. Guys like Curze, Angron, Russ, Sanguinius, Khan, and the Lion were all equals or betters of Horus physically. Vulkan and Manus were supposed to be the strongest. 

4. Abaddon defeated Eldrad, a farseer with power that pretty much made him the go-to guy for the Eldar. 

5. First, Drach'nyen is more powerful than the Anethema. The poison used to almost kill the Warmaster seems to be warp poison also used to fell Rob Gulliman. The Temba fight actually is pretty typical of the difficulty the Primarchs have had with Greater Daemons like Bloodthirsters and Great Unclean Ones. The blade without the daemon, The lord of shadows, in it would not be as powerful as Abaddon's possessed blade. Decapitation and warp poison, it's like primarch-raid.


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## The_Reaper (Apr 22, 2012)

Luther was spared a killing blow from Lion and lion held back because luther was a very close friend of his. I never heard of Kor Phaeron going against a primarch though, and where did it say abaddon beat eldrad? Also the anathema could adapt to the fighting skills of the primarch and the anathema is a daemon weapon. Too much hype and exaggeration on abaddon in the wiki.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> 2. The Daemon Primarchs know that they follow the new warmaster and supply whatever he demands.


Where are you getting that from? Because no, they don't.



Deadeye776 said:


> 4. Abaddon defeated Eldrad, a farseer with power that pretty much made him the go-to guy for the Eldar.


Actually, it is more logical to say Eldrad defeated Abaddon - who was spirited away by the Chaos Gods before Eldrad could land the killing blow.

EDIT: The actual wording is:

_The daemon sword hissed a hands breadth from Eldard's face, its insatiable thirst for the Farseer's soul pulling Abaddon forward onto the spear. Eldrad felt the future twist into place as its tip slowly puckered and pierced Abaddon's throat, and saw tiny shreres of steaming, black blood fall toward his face in perfect clarity.

Against all reason, he met the beasts' buring, hate-filled gaze. In that second, he knew with total and horrifying certainty that in this, the last of all possible futures, the despoiler's crusades would begin anew, bloodier and more hate-filled than ever. The air grew incredibly hot for a fraction of a second, and the stench of the void permeated the scene. Abaddon was gone._

So the fight was fairly inconclusive in terms of who _won_ or _lost_, though what it did prove to Eldrad was that Abaddon couldn't be stopped. It should also be taken into account that this small snippet of lore was introduced to justify the results of a White Dwarf battle report in which Abaddon was reduced to 0 wounds, apparently a similar thing occured in the first worldwide campaign which was held by GW with Calgar - he was killed during the tabletop battle so a snippet of lore had to be published to justify that in fluff-terms (I think it ended up being stated that there were only rumours of his death but he actually somehow managed to survive). 



The_Reaper said:


> and the anathema is a daemon weapon.


Was it?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> 1. We've seen even half-Astartes like Kor Phaeron and Luther able to go toe to toe with Primarchs using Chaos juice. Abaddon is waaaay above that level.


Yes, we've seen the closest friends of Primarchs, specifically turned against them, battle Primarchs. And lose. 



> 2. The Daemon Primarchs know that they follow the new warmaster and supply whatever he demands.


Yeah... no. The Legions of the Daemon Primarchs have a general tendency to help Abaddon when he asks them to but the Daemon Primarchs themselves don't appear to give two shits about Abby or indeed the Chaos Space Marines in general.



> 3. Horus was pretty much the equal of everyone as far as fighting. His greatness was in his leadership and charisma. The only guy he easily trumped was Lorgar like everyone else, and that diminished after what we saw in Aurelian. Guys like Curze, Angron, Russ, Sanguinius, Khan, and the Lion were all equals or betters of Horus physically. Vulkan and Manus were supposed to be the strongest.


It's stated that Horus beat all but three of his brothers (and I think he only lost to two and didn't duel the third). So Horus was in fact one of the best Primarchs at fighting as well as in general.



> 5. First, Drach'nyen is more powerful than the Anethema.


Not really sure where you're getting this from. The Anthema, once attuned, will kill it's target. Not just through the poison but through whatever means are necessary. Drach'nyen on the other hand is simply a very powerful daemon bound into a sword. It doesn't want to be there, it doesn't want to help Abaddon and will seek to undermine him whenever possible. So Anthema = guaranteed kill and active assistance; Drach'nyen = powerful weapon and active resistance. I'd personally rather have the Anthema.


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## Eetion (Mar 19, 2008)

Also keep in mind Abaddon uses the Talon of Horus, in itself a powerful artifact... yet Horus is equally equipped. 

My money is on Horus.


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## Bearer.of.the.Word (Aug 11, 2013)

Horus would completely molest Abaddon, at the time of the crusade the imperium was at its height and still Horus was one of the best warriors, now its a decaying sickened dying beast and still Abaddon isnt all that tough (hes a beats dont get me wrong) I wouldnt even say thier on the same level, the difference between Marine (daemon infused or not) and a Primarch is like human v Marine.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Primarchs have definitely given a new perspective of strength with newer lore. 

One criticism I have with Abaddon being stronger is I'm not sure his body would be able to withstand that much power compared to a primarch.


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