# The Realm of the Gods



## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

There are a lot of questions and points concerning the warp so I decided to make a thread here.

I am reading the Chaos Daemons Codex and I would like some help fathoming the unfathomable. It speaks of the warp not abiding to the laws of physics which is fine by me but I can't understand time. I understand that there is a time difference between the warp and material universe but I don't understand time in the warp.

It is explaining how time does not happen in a "cause and effect" sequence but instead everything "happens" at the same time and at different time. I t begins to explain how the daemons invade and attack the other realms in the warp but it explains it in a "cause and effect" manner, as things normally would-A leads to B-B to C.

I would like to have a beter understanding of this because everything that is said about the warp contradicts itself, not in the juicy starburst kind of way.

So how would you explain something like this? How can the Gods wage war (in a "human way of time" so to speak) if seconds have no value and now was then and the past never was? Mindfreak...


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Time in realspace is akin to a river, always flowing one way. Now think of said time as a lake in the Warp, it neither speeds forwards nor rolls back, when you leave it or enter it is entirely dependent on the conditions you find yourself under.

It's very difficult to explain and without CotE I'm sure my explanation has helped not at all.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Time in realspace is akin to a river, always flowing one way. Now think of said time as a lake in the Warp, it neither speeds forwards nor rolls back, when you leave it or enter it is entirely dependent on the conditions you find yourself under.
> 
> It's very difficult to explain and without CotE I'm sure my explanation has helped not at all.


Well you input is welcomed regardless :laugh:
That is a good way of putting it but I should have just made this thread titled, "CotE please help me"

And why is he such a Chaos fluff King? When he first looked at a GW store did he have an epiphany and said, "I will soon come to understand all things Chaos?"
...maybe


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## Anarkitty (Jul 29, 2008)

The river versus lake analogy is a good one.
Except that the surface of the lake is constantly churning and splasing and moving every which way and unless you're strong enough to stand against the current (like the Gods themselves are) it pretty much throws you around at random.
The Eye of Terror is where the river touches the lake. Time is unpredictable, but usually linear at least. It may flow faster or slower, but at least it doesn't usually go backwards unless you go deeper into the Warp, and it doesn't cease to exist until you reach the real depths where the Gods live.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Androxine Vortex said:


> That is a good way of putting it but I should have just made this thread titled, "CotE please help me"
> 
> And why is he such a Chaos fluff King? When he first looked at a GW store did he have an epiphany and said, "I will soon come to understand all things Chaos?"
> ...maybe


My belief is that CotE isn't human. He's either a creation of the Emperor filled with the entire knowledge of the galaxy but ended up in a Warp Anomaly and thrown backwards in time, or he's either Tzeentch, the Deceiver or Cegorach (the Eldar Laughing God) posing as a human on this forum for a purpose so utterly beyond us mere mortals.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

I like Baron Spikey's anaology and its probably the best one I've heard in a long time.


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## dragonkingofthestars (May 3, 2010)

I think i know the example that best describes the state of the chaos gods and time,

Schrödinger's cat



wikipeida said:


> Schrödinger's Cat: A cat, along with a flask containing a poison and a radioactive source, is placed in a sealed box shielded against environmentally induced quantum decoherence. If an internal Geiger counter detects radiation, the flask is shattered, releasing the poison that kills the cat. The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics implies that after a while, the cat is simultaneously alive and dead. Yet, when we look in the box, we see the cat either alive or dead, not both alive and deadQUOTE]
> 
> (how did i frack up doing a quote?)
> 
> ...


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

You need to put [/ in to close off the brackets properly.

Another way of explaining the way the book is written is of course that it needs to be presented in a way that you would understand.
We think in terms of cause and effect and time does exist here, so stories must be presented in that way to be understood. If they tried to write the book in a Chaotic way it would be complete nonsense and not worth the effort.
Baron Spikey's explanation is a good one, very nicely put!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Another way of explaining the way the book is written is of course that it needs to be presented in a way that you would understand.
> We think in terms of cause and effect and time does exist here, so stories must be presented in that way to be understood. If they tried to write the book in a Chaotic way it would be complete nonsense and not worth the effort.
> Baron Spikey's explanation is a good one, very nicely put!


This is what I was going to say, and goes a way to explain why things are written in a certain way in the codex.

Baron's analogy is a good one to apply here. In the material universe the laws of physics apply, everything occurs in a chronological/cause and effect sequence (the steady flow of a river). Yet in the warp, time isn't really a concept at all. Chaos has always existed within the warp and yet has never existed, events do not occur in a strict sequence of cause and effect, so as a basic example wars can occur before even the causes of the war have manifested - but even then using the terms _"before"_ and _"after"_ creates a paradox.

As for the wars of the Chaos Gods, well they don't actually consist of legions of daemons marching on other gods' realms, nor huge pitched battle warfare as we would imagine it (and how it seems to be described in the codex). That is merely an illusionary image mortals attach to occurences within the warp in an attempt to instill a measure of reason and order and therefore to understand it. What would we truly witness if we were able to watch a daemonic war? Well nothing, because there is no light within the warp to reflect such things. And if we viewed it psychically, assuming we would have not been driven insane by this point, it would not be as it truly is, because we would attach a vision onto the actual goings-on. What really is occuring is merely an _"infinitely complex interweaving of tidal energies and swirling power"_ as the following quote from the codex (which sums up this well) puts it: 

_"Few creatures of the material universe can look at the Warp first hand. Psykers can send their minds Into the Warp, for example, while the Navigators of the Imperium have a third eye that allows them to observe the Immaterium from their spacecraft. Even with these supernatural senses, it is impossible to truly see the Warp, for its energy has no substance, no light to refract and reflect, no matter to create scale or distance. Filtered through even the extra senses of a psychic being, the Warp is an analogue created by mortal minds to comprehend the incomprehensible, to instill order and reason on pure chaos. Where there is an infinitely complex interweaving of tidal energies and swirling power, the observer creates a fantastical landscape. Even these visions have considerable potency and have been known to drive a man to madness. his senses and thoughts utterly inadequate to deal with the phenomenon of the Warp. Castles float through skies of fire, rivers of burning blood pour upwards from smoke-wreathed chasms, and structures of inconceivable geometries push the mind into madness. Behind all of these visions lies the swirling energy of the Warp, constantly feeding on the fear and despair of those who witness its power."_

The best thing to do I think is accept that we cannot truly comprehend the warp, thats how it was intended and how it is.


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## vipertaja (Mar 20, 2010)

I finally come back here and what do I get? 
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Child-of-the-Emperor again."

Bah. Anyways, CotE tends to be one of those that truly "understands" the realm of chaos. Very well put. Many seem to just think it's a spiky place or something.

The worst part of the warp (and the gods) is that most answers about it tend to be of the "yes...and no" variety, being often rather contradictory and confusing.

Anarkitty put it rather well too.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> This is what I was going to say, and goes a way to explain why things are written in a certain way in the codex.
> 
> Baron's analogy is a good one to apply here. In the material universe the laws of physics apply, everything occurs in a chronological/cause and effect sequence (the steady flow of a river). Yet in the warp, time isn't really a concept at all. Chaos has always existed within the warp and yet has never existed, events do not occur in a strict sequence of cause and effect, so as a basic example wars can occur before the causes of the war have manifested - but even then using the terms _"before"_ and _"after"_ creates a paradox.
> 
> ...


I thought that the warp was supposed to exist of every light in existence even beyond our understandings' spectrum but you keep saying the warp is without light?

But even in the Codex Daemons, it tells stories like Skarbrand and it does explain it in a "human way of war" so to say. So I would like to know where you get the information that says they do not "march and fight" because here it clearly states that they would do so in a similar manner.

And since we are talking about Skarbrand. How would you explain that story in the first place? A leads to B leads to C. Skarbrand fights, Tzeentch whispers in his ears, he then takes up his mighty blade against khorne. Which is yet again chronological order.
DAMN IT I HATE THE WARP!


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

I hate the WARD! but still it is cause to effect it just is different to how you perceive it but bottom line your not mean't to.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The best thing to do I think is accept that we cannot truly comprehend the warp, thats how it was intended and how it is.


nonsense poopypants!!



aboytervigon said:


> I hate the WARD! but still it is cause to effect it just is different to how you perceive it but bottom line your not mean't to.


Aw but where's the fun in still retaining some sanity?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Androxine Vortex said:


> I thought that the warp was supposed to exist of every light in existence even beyond our understandings' spectrum but you keep saying the warp is without light?


The warp is without matter, time, and _light_. Where would the _light_ come from? Because there sure as hell ain't any suns or stars in the warp! When people refer to _"swirling colours"_ or _"spectums of light"_ in regards to the warp, they are referring to the personal vision they attach to the warp in an attempt to better comprehend it (which is mentioned in that quote I posted from the codex). 



Androxine Vortex said:


> But even in the Codex Daemons, it tells stories like Skarbrand and it does explain it in a "human way of war" so to say. So I would like to know where you get the information that says they do not "march and fight" because here it clearly states that they would do so in a similar manner.


As I said in my previous post, such things are just the visions that we attach to the warp, either that or the codex has just portrayed it in a way we can understand, which is justified. Otherwise the tales from the codex would be incomprehensible themselves.

The daemonic legions do not _"march and fight"_ in the way we would understand the term because they are not physical entities, by using terms such as _"march"_ and _"fight"_ we are giving them physical properties and attributes they do not have. There is also no matter within the warp, which further justifies how they cannot achieve such things within the realms of the warp. You've really got to think outside the box here, when daemonic legions war amongst themselves within the warp, it is merely the coming together and tension enacted between the unperceivable energy that makes up the Chaos Gods. As mortals, we cannot perceive this energy (because the warp is completely void of matter, light, and order) therefore we automatically conjure up personal visions of what we are attempting to comprehend in an attempt to understand it. Thus we may see legions of horned beasts marching across wastelands to do battle with one another, but that is merely a vision and is not what is truly happening.



Androxine Vortex said:


> And since we are talking about Skarbrand. How would you explain that story in the first place? A leads to B leads to C. Skarbrand fights, Tzeentch whispers in his ears, he then takes up his mighty blade against khorne. Which is yet again chronological order.
> DAMN IT I HATE THE WARP!


I can't explain the story. No one can. The codex portrays it in a way we can understand, but ultimately the way it is described is false.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Who said I retained my sanity after trying to comprehend the warp talking peanut?


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

I have always thought of the warp as a conflicting mass of colours based upon the emotions that are in ascendence at the time ie like an aura.

When a psyker for example peers into the warp his mind is used to twist and shape the chaos into something that at least begins to invite comphrehension.

My physics teacher once gave me an opinion that i think illustrates the point. He said that it is impossible to measure the temperature of water because once we introduce the analogue of temperature ie a thermometer that we are now measuring the water PLUS the thermometer.


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## vipertaja (Mar 20, 2010)

demonictalkin56 said:


> I have always thought of the warp as a conflicting mass of colours based upon the emotions that are in ascendence at the time ie like an aura.
> 
> When a psyker for example peers into the warp his mind is used to twist and shape the chaos into something that at least begins to invite comphrehension.
> 
> My physics teacher once gave me an opinion that i think illustrates the point. He said that it is impossible to measure the temperature of water because once we introduce the analogue of temperature ie a thermometer that we are now measuring the water PLUS the thermometer.


I would add to the thermometer analogy that the number of degrees it shows are also something we invented to make sense of it all...and this would apply subconciously to the warp, where instead of a universally agreed upon scale the "visual aid" comes from a collective subconcious. I hope that made sense to anyone else...


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

I think so; we think of birds to be wise i.e. Athena having an owl and reptiles to be untrustworthy i.e. snake in Genesis and as such Tzeentch is aligned with bird and reptile tendencies (yes i know also lots of tentacles but for the Greater Daemon design this holds); is that what you meant?


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## vipertaja (Mar 20, 2010)

demonictalkin56 said:


> I think so; we think of birds to be wise i.e. Athena having an owl and reptiles to be untrustworthy i.e. snake in Genesis and as such Tzeentch is aligned with bird and reptile tendencies (yes i know also lots of tentacles but for the Greater Daemon design this holds); is that what you meant?


Yeah, that's somewhat where I was going.


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

> Skarbrand fights, Tzeentch whispers in his ears, he then takes up his mighty blade against khorne. Which is yet again chronological order.


may i correct that:
Skarband fights, Tzeentch whispers in his ear. skarband fights, Skarband takes up his balde against Khorne, skarband fights.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The warp is without matter, time, and _light_. Where would the _light_ come from? Because there sure as hell ain't any suns or stars in the warp! When people refer to _"swirling colours"_ or _"spectums of light"_ in regards to the warp, they are referring to the personal vision they attach to the warp in an attempt to better comprehend it (which is mentioned in that quote I posted from the codex).
> 
> As I said in my previous post, such things are just the visions that we attach to the warp, either that or the codex has just portrayed it in a way we can understand, which is justified. Otherwise the tales from the codex would be incomprehensible themselves.
> 
> ...


Well even though you proved me wrong I have to thank you for the extensive details in your answers. So pretty much (from what I understand you are trying to tell me) is that (almost) everything in the codex isn't trully how it is but rather how we can comprehend it? For example the light. It is described as many times as having every light in existence but you say that it is lightless, it only has light because we percieve it as having light in order to comprehend it a little more?

So if a powerfull psyker (lets just assume they were able to witness this) looked into the warp (through his mighty teloscope) and he witnessed lets say the armies of Khorne marching against the realm of Chaos full of his daemons and such. But that wouldn't be true for it is onyl Khorne's influence and power becoming stronger and more dominat over the other Gods? He is just, again, seeing it how we can percieve it? Thats how I am coming to understand it from your explanation.

I might just re-stating things you have said but it helps me to get a beter picture. If you could tell me if I am correct I would appreciate it :biggrin:



aboytervigon said:


> Who said I retained my sanity after trying to comprehend the warp talking peanut?


No I'm Santa:santa:



Karak The Unfaithful said:


> may i correct that:
> Skarband fights, Tzeentch whispers in his ear. skarband fights, Skarband takes up his balde against Khorne, skarband fights.


Yes. Thank you for your contribution. My previous post was completly off.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

demonictalkin56 said:


> I have always thought of the warp as a conflicting mass of colours based upon the emotions that are in ascendence at the time ie like an aura.


And that is a perfect example of an attached vision applied to the true nature of the warp, in an attempt to comprehend it.

We cannot comprehend the warp, not at all. It is without order, matter, time or light. Without such things we cannot see, smell, touch, hear or taste it. It is anathema to the entirety of our capacity to understand. So we attach a vision to what we are experiencing in an attempt to understand it.



demonictalkin56 said:


> When a psyker for example peers into the warp his mind is used to twist and shape the chaos into something that at least begins to invite comphrehension.


Exactly.



Androxine Vortex said:


> Well even though you proved me wrong I have to thank you for the extensive details in your answers. So pretty much (from what I understand you are trying to tell me) is that (almost) everything in the codex isn't trully how it is but rather how we can comprehend it? For example the light. It is described as many times as having every light in existence but you say that it is lightless, it only has light because we percieve it as having light in order to comprehend it a little more?
> 
> So if a powerfull psyker (lets just assume they were able to witness this) looked into the warp (through his mighty teloscope) and he witnessed lets say the armies of Khorne marching against the realm of Chaos full of his daemons and such. But that wouldn't be true for it is onyl Khorne's influence and power becoming stronger and more dominat over the other Gods? He is just, again, seeing it how we can percieve it? Thats how I am coming to understand it from your explanation.
> 
> I might just re-stating things you have said but it helps me to get a beter picture. If you could tell me if I am correct I would appreciate it :biggrin:


Yep. Thats pretty much it.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

@ CotE thanks for the rep and I meant to give you some for the clarification (though it will take me some time gettin used to it since you pretty much made all my knowledge of it feel wasted...Now I know what Lorgar feels like)


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

@CothE I agree with you since I read more of the quote from the Codex but I still don't understand the "stories" from the warp. To pull back an example I used earlier, Skarbrand. What he did has been declared official by GW but if what you are saying about the warp and having just raw-psychic energy how would that relate to Skarbrand rising up against Khorne.

Sorry if I'm not explainning this clearly. 
Basically, we would have percieved Skarbrand rebelling against Khorne but what would have actually happened? (how would it directly have happened in the warp?)

It almost seems like it couldn't. I'm sorry if I am not jsut getting it fully because I have always seen the warp as we "percieved it" and thats it so thinking outside of the box like this is something I'm not used to


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

So far as I understand it, the event happened however were we capable of seeing the warp as it truly is we wouldn't see anything anyway due to the absolute chaos of it. 

Had you been watching (however you did that) the warp wouldn't change BUT your perception of it may infact appear to be an actual daemon having a pop at an even bigger one.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

demonictalkin56 said:


> So far as I understand it, the event happened however were we capable of seeing the warp as it truly is we wouldn't see anything anyway due to the absolute chaos of it.
> 
> Had you been watching (however you did that) the warp wouldn't change BUT your perception of it may infact appear to be an actual daemon having a pop at an even bigger one.


This is really mindf***ing me right now because it's like everything you know about the warp is NOT even close to being what it truly is. I know that the warp is supposed to be unfathomable but still, I hate that all these cool and awesom stories about the daemons are not real. That's just it, They aren't real they are an interpretation, a representaion.
Tzeentch must be reading this thread and laughs, "Not even close! Ha ha ha!"


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

I both like and dislike it as the whole idea of it is that it's meant to be imcomphrehensible and so at least it's keeping true to that. On the other hand of course as you say it's bloody annoying at the same time.

I'm not sure Tzeentch would be so obvious as to state we were not even close; I like to think he/she/it/existential entity just said "fibble" (I now also have an image of a greater daemon of tzeentch sat down with underpants on its head and pencils up its nose) lol


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Androxine Vortex said:


> @CothE I agree with you since I read more of the quote from the Codex but I still don't understand the "stories" from the warp. To pull back an example I used earlier, Skarbrand. What he did has been declared official by GW but if what you are saying about the warp and having just raw-psychic energy how would that relate to Skarbrand rising up against Khorne.
> 
> Sorry if I'm not explainning this clearly.
> Basically, we would have percieved Skarbrand rebelling against Khorne but what would have actually happened? (how would it directly have happened in the warp?)


Daemons, to wildly varying degrees, are small pockets of self-contained energy that are seperate from the flow of the warp. A tiny amount of energy from a patron god is used to bind together a collection of senses, thoughts, and purposes together, giving this pocket of self-contained energy an individual personality and consciousness. Somehow, the warp energy that comprises the entity we know as Tzeentch compromised and influenced a daemon that was bound and forged from the power of Khorne to rebel against its patron.

Does that mean this daemon took up an axe and struck his patron, causing a ***** in the patron's armour? Does that mean this daemon, after realising his folly, was hurled through the Realm of Chaos for eight days and nights before crashing into the Formless Wastes? In line with previous explanations, no, none of that truly happened. But it certainly corresponds, from a mortal perspective, with what did happen: the energy of a god was able to influence the daemon of another god, causing internal strife within the gesalt energy storm that makes up that god.


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