# Tyranids vs Assault Terminators w/ LRC



## Brwrr (Jul 7, 2009)

Ok I played a game with some friends the other day and found out how tough regular Terminators with Terminator Chaplain are. No match for Swarmlord though! However he is thinking of getting a Land Raider and converting to 4 TH/SS and 3 Lightning Claw Assault terminators with Chaplain. He might even go for 7 TH/SS with Chaplain. How can my new Tyranid codex best defeat this? We usually play 1000 points so if I can take out this unit, while still remaining flexible for other armies, then the rest of his army will be small stuff.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

30 hormagaunts, *nothing* can stand against the sheer number of attacks they can throw out on the charge, and at 180pts its not gonna break the bank pts wise, and there easy to get to combat with high numbers remaining due to the numbers and there speed.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Assuming the Hormies get the charge, they have 90 attacks.

That'll hit half the time (45), get to reroll 1's to hit, so that's a total of (60). One third will wound (20), and one in six wounds will result in a failed save (so 3 dead Terminators on average).

Not bad for 180 points.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

but if you combine that with a hive tyrants paroxysm psychic power, things get ugly fast, I just rolled some dice now (bah humbug to mathhammer) and the results were
68 hits (including 11 re-rolled ones with 9 more hits)
26 wounds (kinda makes toxin sacs tempting since that would be 34 wounds)
and 6 dead terminators (also 6 dead even with the sacs, which then takes away the temptation just a little bit)

and thats before they even strike back, which with just a chaplain and terminator left is gonna do literally almost nothing, and the hive tyrant can even have a little play with the land raider if thats close enough, may as well.


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## Brwrr (Jul 7, 2009)

Hmmm! That's good to hear! I better pick up some more hormagaunts as I only have 16 currently. Any other suggestions?


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

The last game I played, and first 5th edition game, approx. twenty gaunts, supported by a toxin/adrenal tervigon shot/assault in my turn, and then in my opponents turn of CC wiped six terminators. Five with hammers and one with claws. It destroyed the gaunt unit (approx. five left at the end), but the tervigon in two rounds spit out 22 more, so no numerical loss.

point sink of 100 for the gaunts and 195 for the tervigon (toxin sacs, adrenal glands, catalyst) 

opponent loss = approx 240 pts
my loss = -35 because by the begining of my next turn I went from around twenty guants in one squad to around 5 in one, 10 in another, and 12 in the last. net gain. 

Not sure of exact numbers, just the result. The unit had started at 20, this was the third or fourth turn, and it had taken fire, but had made a few venomthorpe cover saves. I was laughing at watching a unit of gaunts own a unit of terminators.


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## cranvill (Jul 20, 2008)

just make shure you assult him once he is out of his LR cose if you miss judge it and he hits you dienbarking from a LR crusader then he can smash up that unit up very quickly.


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## Jernmajoren (May 5, 2009)

There is always the crowd pleaser.. Genestealers are known for their ability to kick terminators where it hurts and I should think that a group with Toxin Sacs could stand up to a Termie unit, especially with the broodlords ability to stop one opponents model from striking back.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

honestly I think genestealers vs thunder hammer terminators just plain suck, it makes the storm shield useful if you rend too much, Gaunts just make the shields worthless, and stealers are too big a priority target so in all likely hood they'll reach combat heavily damaged.

plus for the price you can get far more gaunts than stealers


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> honestly I think genestealers vs thunder hammer terminators just plain suck, it makes the storm shield useful if you rend too much, Gaunts just make the shields worthless, and stealers are too big a priority target so in all likely hood they'll reach combat heavily damaged.
> 
> plus for the price you can get far more gaunts than stealers


Agreed. Genestealers are not such a great unit in the new codex. Not when you can flood the fields with small cheap throw away units that crush opponents.


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## JackalMJ (Nov 12, 2009)

thres always Zoanthroping his land raider. Even if you sent two in on pods. pop that sucker early ad the assualt tmerinaters may never reach melee range.


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## Jernmajoren (May 5, 2009)

For the cost of 30 Hormogaunts you can get 10 Genestealers w Toxin Sac.

As Katie Drake kindly calculated for us the gaunts will do on average 3 kills.

A group of 11 Genestealers would hit 30*2/3 = 20 times. They would wound on 3/4 on their hits so a total of 15,0 wounds, of those 5 wounds will be from power weapons thus ~2 kills from rending and ~2 from the normal wounds giving a total of about 3-4 kills.
So actually both units have the capability to take on Terminators, its more a matter of personal preference.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I'm not 100% sold on your maths there. 

11 Stealers is 33 attacks on the change, hitting with 22. 

With Toxin Sacs you get 16/17 Wounds, with 2/3 rends. So 2/3 kills from normal wounds, 1/2 from Rending wounds. So 3 to 5 Termis dead.

So 'Stealers are generally better than Gaunts but the death of each 'Stealer is much more significant to the outcome of the fight. Loads of Guants to die and it's doesn't significantly change your outcome. Lose some 'Stealers and your hitting power drops faster. 

Aramoro


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## Jernmajoren (May 5, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> I'm not 100% sold on your maths there.
> 
> 11 Stealers is 33 attacks on the change, hitting with 22.
> 
> ...


Yeah had a caluclation err, noticed it after posting and edited my post (obviously while you typed yours).

Its true that you need to lose fewer genestealers to lose efficiency, but i think that which to use will be very situational, since there are other drawbacks of having a 30 man unit, such as more difficulty in hiding and thus being targeted more often.
They are like a 30 man guardsman unit to a 10 man ork unit in terms of survivability, so I get what you are saying.
That said Hormogaunts are meant as a meat shield, genestealers are not, 'stealers higher points cost come from abilities not directly influencing this particular matchup so again I think the choice really depends on how you play.. also nothing prevents you from taking both types of units in a army.


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## flankman (Jan 26, 2009)

you could always use both  

ok well hormagaunts are faster travelers thanks to improved fleet and if you make them 10 points (usually not worth it but i dont have alot of models so i do it often) say theres 20 gaunts charging thats 7.5 dead termies also a great way to buff your stealers is to have a tyrant with old adveraries or to help the gaunts by paroxyming there targets (and maby even old advers them)

the genestealers are in alot of hurt now that they cant be as independantly strong (lack of upgrades) and the broodlord is not very killy anymore

but i still use them (infiltrate ftw)


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

seems like a swarmlord with tyrant guard (lash whips) would do pretty well, going first. However it is a significant point investment. That being said, it wont be decimated by bolter fire like gaunts will.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It seems to me that JackalMJ has the right idea; your best bet is to pop that LRC. While in it his terminators have an effective assault range of 21", or so I hear. With that kind of an effective range you aren’t going to be able to assault him if he isn’t a moron, so you probably aren’t going to be able to get that charge bonus on him. So I would pop his raider and bury his men with a mawloc. Idk it is what I would do....... but then again I don't play tyranids so if this suggestion is crap you will have to forgive me.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

assuming the gaunts or genestealers would get the charge is highly unlikely if they are in a land raider, unless you pop the land raider first.

If you dont pop the land raider, you have to take the 18-19 shots from the land raider before being assaulted by the Terminators, if you didnt get off any of your special psychic abilities to the squad even if the squads in cover you still have Assault nades from coming out of a Land raider.

So you have just taken 18 attacks from the land raider and you lose your charge bonus, while the Termies gain theirs.

The fact is, to sucessfully deal with TH SS termies in a land raider, you need to 
a. blow up said land raider first and have a unit in assault range
b. have said assault unit not have many casualities
c. hope that you get the average rolls off, instead of very bad ones.


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## oblivion8 (Jun 17, 2009)

or just have counter assaulters.
had my zoanthropes ganked by TH termies and a chapter master, but just jumped on him with 19 stealers and a broodlord, and with the BL possibly taking out his chapter masters attacks, it went well. you could do this with hormies or the like as well I suppose.


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## Brwrr (Jul 7, 2009)

Sounds like tons of attacks are better than AP, in this situation, since they got storm shields, right?

You think 2 Zoanthropes are a safe bet for taking out 1 Land Raider? Also, how can you make sure your units are in counter assault range for after you pop the LR? Or do you drop the Zoanthropes in front of the LR, shoot it, and move up your guys behind the 'thropes and assault after the Terminators destroy them?


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## flankman (Jan 26, 2009)

2 zoans practicly guarantees a pen and a pen has 50% chance to destroy it and getting immobalise is a great result also weapon destroyed isnt that great and most LRs care little for stun (xtra armor/some version of machine spirit)


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Except it can be under cover of smoke and be sheilded by a psychic hood. These would make the likelyhood of an immobilised or better to be:

(11/12 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 1/2) + (11/12 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/6 * 1/2 * 1/3)
= (924/15552) + (462/46656) ~ 0.07 per zoanthrope

In other words, you are going to have to plan around receiving a charge. Best unit to take a charge on the chin is undoubtably a large gaunt unit with tervigon support. Assuming 20 gaunts with counter charge and poison (since they will be taking the charge FC doesn't work):
40 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/6 = 10/6 ~ 2 dead terminators. 

With preferred enemy from an old adversery hive tyrant:
40 x 3/4 x 1/2 x 1/6 = 15/6 ~ 3 dead terminators. 

Not bad for 100pts worth of troops (assumming you were going to take the tervigon and hive tyrant anyway- I certainly was).

Thats a normally sized hammernator squad gutted. For the OPs opponents 8 nater squad he's going to need some more counter assault (like another large unit of gaunts, this time also getting a FC bonus).


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## Arkanor (Jan 1, 2010)

flankman said:


> 2 zoans practicly guarantees a pen and a pen has 50% chance to destroy it and getting immobalise is a great result also weapon destroyed isnt that great and most LRs care little for stun (xtra armor/some version of machine spirit)


Turn one no Zoanthropes are going to be doing anything if you have them in goo pods.

Turn 2 you might have a chance, by then that LR is going to be steaming towards you with smoke active. Oddjob also makes the point of the Psychic hood, I forgot.

Turn 3 you're going to have all manners of hell coming from the thing. I would leave your Zoes on the line and use them to screen.


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## ferris1971 (Sep 10, 2008)

Arkanor said:


> Turn one no Zoanthropes are going to be doing anything if you have them in goo pods.
> 
> Turn 2 you might have a chance, by then that LR is going to be steaming towards you with smoke active. Oddjob also makes the point of the Psychic hood, I forgot.
> 
> Turn 3 you're going to have all manners of hell coming from the thing. I would leave your Zoes on the line and use them to screen.


Why can't the Zoes shoot coming out of a spore? The lance is an Assault 1 psychic power.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

ferris1971 said:


> Why can't the Zoes shoot coming out of a spore? The lance is an Assault 1 psychic power.


They can, it's just that in the first turn the mycetic spore can't arrive on the battlefield in normal circumstances since Reserves are rolled for on the second turn.


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