# Abaddon, Daemon Prince



## Nurglizer (Feb 8, 2010)

If Abaddon ascended to become a Daemon Prince, what would he look like? Can there be a Daemon Prince of Chaos Undivided?

P.S. What is the Chaos Undivided icon?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Daemons do not 'look like' anything. Daemons do not have physical bodies, they are made purely of the immaterial. When they manifest in Real Space their forms are based on the emotions/powers they themselves are based upon. 

Yes there can be Daemon Princes of Chaos Undivided, the most notable examples being Lorgar and Perturabo.

The Undivided Icon is the Star of Chaos, The following is one variation:


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

all the universe will fall. lol 

haha, but the alternative- probably not much. The Primarchs are all DP's but they arent really doing that much. Angron is the only notable traitor primarch doing anything, for instance: 1st war of armeggadon and the Reign of Fire found in the CSM Codex with his 55,000 Khorne Berserkers! haha. he is too bad ass!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Until the space wolves came in, glory to the wolf lords and all that. But other than that chaos incursions have been something of a failure. Abaddon would be larger and probably pissier, which is quite a feat really. Other than that there is no real way to tell what he would look like.


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## Tau22 (Apr 27, 2009)

Well, since he is the Warmaster, his daemonic form would probably have bits from all four of the Chaos powers... is that possible, though?

Also, that would probably make his strategic thinking even worse, since He'd have four different personalities at once.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

He wouldn't have 4 different personalities, but it is a bit difficult to imagine his strategic planning getting any worse! "lets do the same thing 13 times, they won't expect that!" 

I think the only clear thing if he assended he'd get bigger..

Abbaddon really has me starting questioning the machinations of the chaos gods, I think tzeentch is just having a laugh at the other gods, why would you chose the most useless individual in the galaxy to be your chosen one! 

the undivided symbol like as been said is the eight pointed star.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Barnster said:


> but it is a bit difficult to imagine his strategic planning getting any worse! "lets do the same thing 13 times, they won't expect that!"


Look at what we know of the details of each Black Crusade, hardly doing the same thing over and over (most sources even state that Abaddon has only led a few Crusades, not all 13). He has gone to lengths in order to find an alternative way out of the Eye of Terror, sponsoring the Word Bearers crusade against Boros Gate in order to gain control of the Wormholes for example.

But aside from that he doesn't have a lot of options as far as attack routes go, the Cadian Gate is the only stable route out of the Eye.



Barnster said:


> I think the only clear thing if he assended he'd get bigger..


And be reborn in mind, spirit and body as a Daemon...



Barnster said:


> Abbaddon really has me starting questioning the machinations of the chaos gods, I think tzeentch is just having a laugh at the other gods, why would you chose the most useless individual in the galaxy to be your chosen one!


Firstly Abaddon is not useless, to say that is absurd. Secondly the Chaos Gods in no way have to act in rational ways anyway.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

he'd look like a spawn, seriously a guy who epic fails 13 times and misses a planet with a big gun ain't gonna be getting any more gifts from the gods, he will be pimp slapped, turn into a spawn and then impaled on a stick for nurgle to chew on.


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## Tau22 (Apr 27, 2009)

@teh Serious-Child

While he may not have been leader of all of those crusades, he still has his share of tacticasl folly.
Let's see, okay, there is no other exit from the Eye, that's not his fault. But let's face it. To gain a foothold in Cadia, with all the Chaos forces you could wish for, on the thirteenth time is not that large of an accomplishment, either.

Also, does he have a strategy, except for 'I have more troops than them, excellsior!'


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Abbadon, simply _will not_ become a Daemon Prince. The fundamental reason to this is his use. Abbadon can unite the Hordes of generic scum, the favour of _all_ Chaos Gods, thus their own immortal legions of Daemons and the Traitor Legions within the Eye like no other can, since Horus in the 31st Millenium. Therefore, this makes him a valuable tool of the will of the Chaos Gods. 

He, unlike Daemon Primarchs for example, can venture out into the material universe, fairly easy, without any of the physical complications that would be involved if he were a Daemon, such as the laws of the material universe inflicting their own bounds onto the sheer irrational, nature-defying ways of the Warp.

Added to this, if the Despoiler, or any chosen does infact reach Daemonhood, then, even without a pledge of allegiance to one particular Chaos God, he would still be embroiled in the pointless and little-gaining wars of the Immaterium. 

And finnaly. Abbadon has a single goal, to crush the Imperium, so the Emperor, and then the Galaxy under the heel of Chaos. His motivation is spurred on by his human feelings, so revenge, domination etc, although being - or was - an Adeptus Astartes, does supress _alot_ compared to any mortal man, but in reverse, bestows upon him an immense sense of pride and valour, no matter how corrupted his soul becomes. So, what Im trying to say is, Daemons are totally irrational, their behaviour the will of there masters, thus it is uncategorisable, and to a mortal mind, utterly pointless and devoid of substance. So, if Abbadon, _was_ to become a Daemon, he would most likely loose any sense of a desired and ultimate annihalation of the Imperium, and as said, begin to fight for the Chaos, in its petty wars against one-another.

So, in a nutshell, if Abbadon, _was_ a Daemon Prince, he would be severely restricted to his effort against Cadia, he would no longer harbour the same kind of revenge or hatred, or - most importantly - an ultimate desire to crush the Imperium, and with him, generally would end any real chance of destroying the domain of the Emperor.

Then, we have the question, of what would he turn into? would it be a pus-filled, gibbering, and rancid, bloated child of Nurgle? a hatefull, constantly induced by bouts of rage, and crimson thirsting champion of Khorne? a manipulative, all-knowing, and player with the minds of foolish mortals, thus a follower of Tzeentch? or a pleasure seeking, totally care-free, except to bring ectasous joy for his master and he, slave of Slaanesh?

Well, unless he favours a single Chaos God above another, which being the leader of the Black Legion, is doubtful, he wont become either, but an Undivided Daemon Prince, henceforth you are correct. The blessing of Khorne will neutralise that of Slaanesh, as they are opposites emotionally (although, Tzeentch is Khorne`s greatest rival, currently, within the Great Game), and the despair of Nurgle cancels out the hope, albeit false, manipulation and lie clogged hope that is Tzeentch.

(( Note - although, this does, fall heavily on several variables, such as 'Why wont Abbadon become a spawn from to many gifts?' and 'He has failed *12* times, thus is why his skull isn`t upon the Skull Throne?' ))

Not, possesing a copy of Liber Chaotica, or being a generally Chaos-loving and all-knowing 'pupil' of the 40k Universe, there may be substantial holes within my explanation, although I am confident Child and LordLucan, shall see to that


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## Relic of Light (Dec 24, 2009)

Barnster said:


> He wouldn't have 4 different personalities, but it is a bit difficult to imagine his strategic planning getting any worse! "lets do the same thing 13 times, they won't expect that!"
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Do the Chaos Gods want Abaddon to win?

Maybe he loses most of the Crusades because they wish it, not that Abaddon would know that.

I mean it suits there needs to be in a constant state of war, what would the Chaos Gods gain by Abaddon wining, getting though to terra and destroying Mankind?

I Think Chaos gains more from no one ever winning.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Relic of Light said:


> I mean it suits there needs to be in a constant state of war, what would the Chaos Gods gain by Abaddon wining, getting though to terra and destroying Mankind?


If Terra fell, and thus Mars - with Solar Segmentum pretty much under the control of Chaos, then it`d be a massive blow to the Imperium and the Mechanicus. This, would create galaxy-wide chaos by the citizens of the Imperium rioting and preaching of the abandonment of the Emperor, and with the defeat of the Emperor, massive incursions of Daemons. Tzeentch, would revel in the chaos, and carnage, although enjoy the control and the power over the Imperium`s heart. Khorne would be amused by the collossal amounts of bloodshed that such a campaign and ultimately victory over Terra would ensure. The ship-loads of slaves taken from former Imperial worlds would be of benefit to Slaanesh, and Nurgle? well the desparity of every-day citizens and no doubt the galactic wide disease caused from an economical collapse of the Imperium, would please him.

So yes, Chaos would benefit, and the Chaos Gods, all in their characteristic and twisted ways would enjoy it. 

To me, its more of a question of the Chaos Gods` rating 'The Great Game' (IIRC) over their manipulation of the material realm. Example: Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, only that it does. Matters little whether it be the innocent blood of Imperial citizens, the regal genetically-enhanced and hormone full blood of Astartes, or the steaming Ichor of Daemons.

And finnaly, I genuinly dont think - although cannot really solidify - that the Chaos Gods are dependant upon their 'food source' from the Mortal Realm. I mean, they were around eons before life (excluding Slaanesh) so obviously are not reliant upon the emotions expressed by an everyday Imperial citizen, or Eldar Prince, or Chaos Lord....


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Tau22 said:


> While he may not have been leader of all of those crusades, he still has his share of tacticasl folly.
> Let's see, okay, there is no other exit from the Eye, that's not his fault. But let's face it. To gain a foothold in Cadia, with all the Chaos forces you could wish for, on the thirteenth time is not that large of an accomplishment, either.
> 
> Also, does he have a strategy, except for 'I have more troops than them, excellsior!'


How exactly is it tactical folly? 

The problems facing Abaddon are much more extreme than those that faced Horus. Horus had the element of suprise, the unflinching loyalty of 9 legions and countless traitor guard, the most powerful and troublesome loyalist legions were distracted at the far corners of the galaxy, he was not confined anywhere and had the run of the galaxy, his allies in the warp had clouded the communications and travel of the loyalists, Mars was under his control, Terra's defenders were vastly outnumbered, 

Now compare this to Abaddon - he, on the other hand has to go to extreme efforts to even summon a sizeable army and bind his allies together under his leadership. He is confined to a region of the galaxy of which there is only one stable exit; The Cadian Gate, which also happens to be one of most heavily defended regions in the entire galaxy. His allies and masters are fickle beings who essentially are not reliable. 

He really only has one option available to him - and that is to plough time & time again into the Cadian Gate until he gains a foothold (which he now has) and then eventually smash through.



bobss said:


> So, what Im trying to say is, Daemons are totally irrational, their behaviour the will of there masters, thus it is uncategorisable, and to a mortal mind, utterly pointless and devoid of substance. So, if Abbadon, _was_ to become a Daemon, he would most likely loose any sense of a desired and ultimate annihalation of the Imperium, and as said, begin to fight for the Chaos, in its petty wars against one-another.
> 
> So, in a nutshell, if Abbadon, _was_ a Daemon Prince, he would be severely restricted to his effort against Cadia, he would no longer harbour the same kind of revenge or hatred, or - most importantly - an ultimate desire to crush the Imperium, and with him, generally would end any real chance of destroying the domain of the Emperor.


Yeah, that is probably the most likely suggestion, and makes perfect sense.



Relic of Light said:


> Do the Chaos Gods want Abaddon to win?
> 
> Maybe he loses most of the Crusades because they wish it, not that Abaddon would know that.
> 
> ...


Although that is also possible. I think its a given that the Chaos Gods benefit the most from the state of constant warfare in the galaxy, therefore they may not wish for Abaddon to succeed, as it would shift the balance of power and damage the equilibrium.

But then again, as Bobss said - its also plausable that the Chaos Gods would benefit more from the destruction of the Imperium. Its implied that upon the death of the Emperor a similar event would occur as to what happened resulting from the fall of the Eldar, not the birth of a new god but a galaxy-wide warp overlap. Where mortals are just petty slaves to the whims of the Dark Gods, the Great Game would be fought on a much larger scale. Who knows what the Chaos Gods would prefer, but then again they're not rational beings, but are only concerned with the 'eternal flow of emotion across aeons'.


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## crzy eyes (Dec 31, 2009)

it would be sweet to see him as a dp of undivided but its just too much details to add in, he would look wierd. eg his guts falling out with mystical flames covering him


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Abbaddon is the baddest ass Mortal in the 40k Universe allong with Eldrad, Calgar, and Solar Machanus. This guy has pick at the Imperium piece by piece with every crusade he has done. He is not the only guy to lead the Crusades either, hes the best at it. I belive Doom Breed has led some and others. The Cadian Gate is second only to Terra. By gaining a foot hold he has proven under the worst circumstances he can beat the odds. 
Lets see what campaigns can be planned from here, Cadia needs to die so Chaos players can have more free reign in attacking the Imperium.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

bobss said:


> And finnaly, I genuinly dont think - although cannot really solidify - that the Chaos Gods are dependant upon their 'food source' from the Mortal Realm. I mean, they were around eons before life (excluding Slaanesh) so obviously are not reliant upon the emotions expressed by an everyday Imperial citizen, or Eldar Prince, or Chaos Lord....


Ignoring the "non-linear view of time" nonsense in the warp, the first three chaos gods manifested during M2, around the middle ages.


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

K3k3000 said:


> Ignoring the "non-linear view of time" nonsense in the warp, the first three chaos gods manifested during M2, around the middle ages.


it would certainly explain;

the bubonic plague - Nurgle

'holy' crusades - khorne

not sure on the others


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Tzeentch could have been the child of all the catastrophes that took place during the dark ages.


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

lol he totally told them the world was round to mess with them, or started the rumour of 'witches'


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

K3k3000 said:


> Ignoring the "non-linear view of time" nonsense in the warp, the first three chaos gods manifested during M2, around the middle ages.


So goes the older background, But I tend to take the stance that the Chaos Gods manifested much earlier than that.

If they manifested in M1-2 that heavily implies that they are human gods, where as we know they are not (they may be heavily invested in humanity in M41, but they are not solely human gods). There would simply have been not enough strong emotions coming from humanity in order to create these terrible gods, unless its a mere coincidence that they manifested in Terra's Middle Ages. Compare it to the Eldar for example who are much, much more psychic than humans, they have a vastly more superior effect on the warp and yet even with a galactic-spanning empire and trillions upon trillions of them it still took thousands of years to create Slaanesh. Humans could not have done the same with 3 seperate gods under the circumstances in a relatively tiny space of time.

In my view the first 'eddies' of Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle began to take form during the War in Heaven and continued to gain full consciousness shortly after that war, but much before Terra's Middle Ages.

Anyway thats how I see it as most plausable, but thats just me.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

surley it would be better got the galaxy to be turned into a giant Eye of terror! 

How often do you hear of nids eating a daemon world?

Orks most likely turn to chaos and keep up the rape and pillage?

2 huge threats solved!(ish)


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> So goes the older background, But I tend to take the stance that the Chaos Gods manifested much earlier than that.
> 
> If they manifested in M1-2 that heavily implies that they are human gods, where as we know they are not (they may be heavily invested in humanity in M41, but they are not solely human gods). There would simply have been not enough strong emotions coming from humanity in order to create these terrible gods, unless its a mere coincidence that they manifested in Terra's Middle Ages. Compare it to the Eldar for example who are much, much more psychic than humans, they have a vastly more superior effect on the warp and yet even with a galactic-spanning empire and trillions upon trillions of them it still took thousands of years to create Slaanesh. Humans could not have done the same with 3 seperate gods under the circumstances in a relatively tiny space of time.
> 
> ...


I don't think we're meant to assume the chaos gods manifested in that era because of humans. The way I see it, it's just GW's way of setting up a timeline that we can be relatively familiar with. The creation of the chaos gods was probably the result of multiple races working, unwittingly, in tandem


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Well considering the reason Khorne is associated with bronze and brass is because those were the weapons of war when he formed would suggest it was well before M1-2.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I wish people would stop calling Abbadon incompetent, I mean most chaos players that have actually looked at chaos's ideology and loony gods has come to the understanding that the Chaos gods don't want to win since the galaxy is in the most chaotic evil state possible.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

LukeValantine- I'm a chaos player and the galaxy has still yet to reach that point. as long as the emperor is still somewhat alive and the imperium is fighting back, and the inqusition is doing its evil works against chaos then the galaxy wont be in the fullest state of Chaos. Thats were Abby comes in. If he can break Cadia and drive the Chaos forces deep into the Imperium, then BLoodshed will almost Triple and the amount of destruction and chaos will be of Titanic porportions turning every world into a battleground and no one will be safe causing mass panic and mayham throughout the Imperium. Now thats what i call would be a true state of Chaos. Even the Eldar are trying to prevent that from happening, seeing as how Eldrad gave up his life to battle the corrupted Black Fottress from blowing Cadia to oblivion.

If Abbaddon ever became a daemon prince he would be nigh unstoppable. here's a couple reasons why:
1. He would be immortal.
2. As a daemon prince he would be stronger!
3. He would have a HUGe influence on the chaos legions for being a Daemon prince is the greatest reward and demands lots of respect. Chaos followers will flood to his side and his numbers will swell drastically.
4. He would remain with his legion for daemon princes can basically do what they want and since he is not a daemon prince of a specific God he is not chained to any of their will.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

But if he became a Daemon Prince he wouldn't be able to remain in the Materium for any real length of time (that was Angron's downfall in the 1st War of Armageddon) and the Legions who don't respect Daemons to any great degree (the Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, and Night Lords spring to mind) might be wary of allying with a warmaster so obviously dependent on the 'goodwill' of the 4 powers.

Plus Abaddon must obviously not want to ascend to Daemonhood, considering all the devastation he's caused I doubt that he hasn't been offered that particular boon in the past.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Seeing as he already has a Night Lords Daemon prince Dhar' Leth under his command, he might wanna stay human anyway, and you do have a point about Angron.  Though how does Dhar Leth stay out of the warp for so long? Daemon princes are not really whollly limited and seeing as Angron got his ass banished by 100 GK terminators didnt help either.

Alpha legion wouldnt be interested in Abby or his cause because they have their own agenda and dont need the stable path to the warp that Cadia is guarding because they have their own ways past that. ( though it would help if Cadia wasnt in the way)
Iron warriors and all those other non god dependant legions or chapters wouldnt really care for abby either unless it benefited them directly with what he did or plans to do. Iron warriors and Night lords are basically mercernaries for hire and are not a cohesive whole legions anymore.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Daemon Princes require constant empowerment from the Warp the same as pure daemons, this would usually be in the case of an active Warp Rift nearby (that would be one of the reasons why it's possible for daemons to hang around the Materium side of the Eye of Terror/Maelstrom for longer than average) and/or monuments/artifacts that channel warp energy- an example being the monolith Angron had to build in the jungles of Armageddon, providing the defenders enough time to regroup.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Being a Daemon prince has its disadvantages i guess. So it would be in Abby's best interest to stay human?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Pretty much to be a uniter of the Traitor Legions, there is of course that major other way of sustaining your daemonic self in the Materium- cause carnage, something Abaddon is very good at, though of course with so many other daemons taking strength from the violence the energies will dissipate that much quicker.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

XxDreMisterxX said:


> Seeing as he already has a Night Lords Daemon prince Dhar' Leth under his command, he might wanna stay human anyway, and you do have a point about Angron.  Though how does Dhar Leth stay out of the warp for so long? Daemon princes are not really whollly limited and seeing as Angron got his ass banished by 100 GK terminators didnt help either.




Civil War erupted between the Black Legion and Night Lords in _Soul Hunter_, the alliances between the traitor legions are strenuous and dangerous at best.

If Abaddon was a Daemon Prince, not only would he be less trustworthy in the eyes of a few Traitor Legions, but he wouldn't be able to lead the Black Crusades in the way he does now (as he would have to sustain himself in Real Space like normal Daemons do), aside from that he might not want to.

And for the records Dhar'Leth is not a Night Lord, he is a member of the Black Legion. He _was_ a Night Lord, but no one would class him as such now.



XxDreMisterxX said:


> Iron warriors and Night lords are basically mercernaries for hire and are not a cohesive whole legions anymore.


Well the Night Lords certainly are not cohesive, but thats only because they have no leadership figure to loosely organise themselves around. But the Iron Warriors maintain some loose form of organisation.

But they are hardly mercenaries for hire


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

i though the IW's were quite cohesive from what i read in strom of iron?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

World Eater XII said:


> i though the IW's were quite cohesive from what i read in strom of iron?


Well I wouldn't go to any extreme lengths to actually call them cohesive, but they are generally loosely organised in a similar way to the Word Bearers.

In the absense of their Primarch (like the Word Bearers) they act in Warbands (one of which is seen in _Storm of Iron_), but still have a central authority who if he wished it could probably muster together the vast majority of the Legion.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

oh aye, that makes sense! 

But reading the chaos dex again it said that the black legion had a right shit time in the eye of terror, cant remember page number, i assume though they have recovered?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

World Eater XII said:


> But reading the chaos dex again it said that the black legion had a right shit time in the eye of terror, cant remember page number, i assume though they have recovered?


They did after they first moved in. Back then though they were still the Sons of Horus, being before Abaddon took the mantle of leadership. They worshipped Horus' corpse as a god and thus were constantly focused on the failures of the past.

It came to pass that an inter-legionary war occured within the Eye, which culminated in the Emperor's Children stealing Horus' corpse and destroying the Sons of Horus' base of operations. Fabius Bile cloned the corpse of Horus.

This was the final straw for Abaddon, who took it upon himself to lead the Legion, he renamed them the Black Legion and retaliated against the Emperor's Children and destroyed the Clones of Horus.

Since then the strength of the Black Legion has slowly grown, taking in deserters from the other Traitor Legions and Renegade Imperial Astartes. They are now easily the most powerful and dominant Traitor Legion, outnumbering the Word Bearers by 10:1.


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