# Ctan analysis and comparison to the warp and warp beings.



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I would like to beging by saying that the ctan are stated in that the warp is anathema to them. I have noticed many interpret this word as meaning weakness to the warp, vulnerable to the warp, defenseless to the warp. This is not so, anathema means loathed, disliked, despised, in other context it can also mean banished and or banned from a location.

With this clarified I would like to say that in no where in any of the text has it ever been shown that the ctan "gods" are weak to the warp and or highly vulnerable. An example of this would be when the deceiver (who is in raw power the weakest of the four remaining ctan, or it might of been the void dragon who directly took on the vaul fortresses I don't recall) took on the vaul stone fortresses and was fired upon by many of them and this did not slow down, destroy or fatally harm it at all (going by what was stated). One must also keep in mind this feat occured pre ctan consuming one another for power thus the deceiver was not at the height of its power.

My next point is in regards to the nightbringer, it is stated the nightbringer fought khaine, and in their fight the khaine was able to eventually crack the necrodermis housing the night bringer. However in the process khaine was pierced by the shrapnel of the necrodermis and forever infected by the reapers mark, fear. On top of this even though the night bringer lost, the necrons entirely massacared the eldar armis that battle. Furthermore it is stated this in no way permanently harmed the nightbringer, as it quickly left and was given a new necrodermis shell to house.

Now the point of the above is also to focus that the nightringer fought khaine in the warp, why? Because in near every detail of the eldar gods they are detailed as warp beings, thus even though it is possible they were materium beings, or both, going purely by what is known now in all likeness they were warp beings. To show how truly powerful the night bringer is, he fought khaine in khaines own native realm which was not a weakness to the night bringer but it certainly wasn't an advantage like it was for khaine, and even with this stipulations in khaines favor it still managed to almost win, as well as forever infect and brand khaine with the mark of the reaper. One must also keep in mind this battle took place prior to the ctan cosuming one another for power so the nightbringer was no where near as powerful as it was later. 

If the battle betwen the two were to happen in real space I imagine the nightbringer would have eliminated khaine.

Now as for the difference of a ctan in the warp and in real space. A ctan in the materium is described as trsncending laws and limits of space, time and reality (I don't have the quote on me could some one post it if they have it on them?) And that they are able to freely write, erase, and change any rules , laws and limits of reality in the materium as they so will. 

Comparison of ctan vs chaos gods

The ctan in the materium are the sole masters of real space and capable of willing it to their desire as they see fit. Same as the chaos gods are masters of the warp and willing it to their desire as they see fit. However neither is truly invincible, for the chaos gods can be damaged and it has been shown that the warp or daemons which are pieces of it, can be permanently destroyed by holocaustic powers, or when the emperor erased horus soul and the chaos powers in him. 

The chaos gods are unable to manifest in the materium at all and must use proxies. The ctan however are able to cross into the warp unharmed, however their powers are not at their fullest since they are unable to will the warp to their desire as much so as they are able to do in the materium. An example of that the ctan are still immesely powerful in the warp is khaine vs night bringer in the warp and even then the nightbringer nearly won if its necrodermis wouldn't have been pierced. If then khaine was able to hold its own against slaanesh at the height of her power (birth of slaneesh feasting on trillions of eldar souls) and was only shattered when khorne had arrived. I further add this for if chaos already existed when the eldar gods did, and khorne desired khaine, then why did not khorne attack and claime khaine for himself sooner? I conclude because prior to slaneesh birth the powers of chaos were not powerful enough to do so. Thus it only attest to how powerful khaine was, and indirectly attest to hpw powerful the nightbringer, who was fighting at a disadvantage (in the warp), not at the height of its power (pre ctan feasting on one another), and is the second weakest ctan (outsider and void dragon top two). Goes to show how powerful the ctan are in real space (unrivaled) and in the warp.

One must also keep in mind that we have only seen a weakened 

So what do you all think?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lux said:


> I would like to beging by saying that the ctan are stated in that the warp is anathema to them. I have noticed many interpret this word as meaning weakness to the warp, vulnerable to the warp, defenseless to the warp. This is not so, anathema means loathed, disliked, despised, in other context it can also mean banished and or banned from a location.
> 
> With this clarified I would like to say that in no where in any of the text has it ever been shown that the ctan "gods" are weak to the warp and or highly vulnerable.


Whilst that is true. Take into account that the only weapons the Eldar possessed that stood any chance of damaging/destroying a C'tan, utilised warp energy (the Talismans of Vaul). The tale of the Emperor's battle against the Void Dragon can also be used as an example here. The Emperor being an incredibly powerful psyker was able to defeat a C'tan. There are even veiled hints in the Necron codex:

'The hot-blooded young races spread across the galaxy, battling Necron science with warp-spawned magicks. The C'tan's empire of destruction was sent reeling: the forces of the Empyrean were anathema to them and, for all the hellish destruction they unleashed, they could not stay the Old Ones' relentless advance.' (_Codex: Necrons_, Page 26)

'They instigated a great warding, a plan to forever defeat the magicks of the Old Ones...' (_Codex: Necrons_, Page 26)

Thus personally I think its safe to say that the C'tan bear *some form* of weakness to Warp energy.



Lux said:


> An example of this would be when the deceiver (who is in raw power the weakest of the four remaining ctan) took on the vaul stone fortresses and was fired upon by many of them and this did not slow down, destroy or fatally harm it at all (going by what was stated). One must also keep in mind this feat occured pre ctan consuming one another for power thus the deceiver was not at the height of its power.


I think you may be referring to the Eldar myth regarding the engagement between the Void Dragon and the Talismans of Vaul? If so its perfectly plausable that they weakened the Void Dragon to the extent where he had to flee. Actually some people presume that it was to Terra he fled following that encounter, and thus ensued his imprisonment at the hands of the Emperor.



Lux said:


> Because in near every detail of the eldar gods they are detailed as warp beings


I don't think thats ever been explicity stated. 



Lux said:


> To show how truly powerful the night bringer is, he fought khaine in khaines own native realm which was not a weakness to the nightbringer but it certainly wasn't an advantage like it was for khaine


It is a massive assumption that their duel, if such a thing ever happened, occured in the Warp. 



Lux said:


> If the battle betwen the two were to happen in real space I imagine the nightbringer would have eliminated khaine.


Who is to say it didn't happen in Realspace?



Lux said:


> The ctan however are able to cross into the warp unharmed


They are? Where is the evidence for this?


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post and reply to each piece at that!

As for the quote which states "the laws and limits of reality bear no weight pn them and they can warp reality to their will" ill go search for but I know I've read it before.

As for the duel betwen khaine and the night bringer it did happen! Or so the eldar myth goes. I say the eldar pantheon are warp beings due to that slaneesh consumed them in the warp, and slaneesh is unable to exist outside the warp.

I will admit my statement of the ctan being able to cross into the warp unharmed stems from the fact that the warp has never been shown to harm them, just stated that they despise it for being unable to master it as they have real space. As for why the vaul talismans hurt the ctan? Well I imagine giant guns that shoot warp energy projectiles woud hurt near anything, the fact a ctan tanked multiples of them simultaneously and survived atest to their power. Its not that the warp is painful or fatal to the ctan its that the ctan are unable to master the warp.

If I were to try to explain in game type of way, it would be like this, let me know if it makes sense to you, I'm trying to convey my thoughts best I am able to!

Ctan damage sheet (how much dmg they take from varying dmg types)
1. Physical = 10%
2. Power weapons = 20%
3. Warp powered weapons = 100%

What I mean to show by this is that the ctan take normal dmg from warp powered attacks, not bonus dmg from it thus they are not weak to it, in the sense that we humans are not weak to a punch in the face. It just simply hurts and would do the same ammount of dmg to any of our species (general speaking).

If the ctan were weak to warp weapons it would look like this 

Warp weapons = 200%.

However it just simply is that the ctan have no natural super high esistance to that dmg type as they do near everything else.

Another example would be

Power armor dmg sheet
bolter rounds = 30%
Warp weapons = 100%

Is power armor weak to warp weapons? No. But it still hurts them it just isn't something they have bonus resistnce too.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Lux said:


> As for the duel betwen khaine and the night bringer it did happen! Or so the eldar myth goes. I say the eldar pantheon are warp beings due to that slaneesh consumed them in the warp, and slaneesh is unable to exist outside the warp.


You are assuming that the eldar gods couldn't travel in real space or that the fight coundn't have taken place within the webway. Simply because khaine fought a battle with the warp gods within the warp doesn't mean that the battle with the nightbringer couldn't have taken place somewhere else.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Check my previous post I added a lot to it!

As for why I believe the NB fought khaine in the warp is due to several reasons

1. The quotes which describe the ctan as being undisputed masters of real space and the laws and physics of reality being nothing to them as they are able to will them to their desire.

Thus if the fight occured in real space I see khaine as being entirely destroyed by a ctan.

2. The eldar at the point in the war were on the defensive, the battle took place prior to the old ones counter attack and it was prior to the ctan feasting on each other for power. The old ones counter attack took place after the feasting, prior to their counter they were unaware only four ctan remained.

2. Thus if the ctan were on the offensive and sieging the old ones last fortresses, it would likely be the warp.

And it states when khaine barely won by managing to pierce the nb's necrodermis that the nbs essence left and the cron army anihilated the eldar army.

If the nbs form had been destroyed in real space it could of instantly reformed, rather it had to leave the warp to reform.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

So the eldar were fighting with khaine? If that is true it couldn't have taken place within the warp. Eldar cannot exist with in the warp unaided. It would have had to have taken place in either real space or the webway. There is also little to no reason to believe that Ctan can even travel within the warp.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

@ CotE: Really, who isn`t vulnerable against warp energy? Excluding daemons of course.

@ Lux: Are you familiar with the piece of fluff quite early in the Eldar codex referring to the Gods Asuryan and Khaine? Basically, during the War in heaven, Khaine learned that the Eldar would lead to his downfall and resolved to kill them. Asuryan learned of this and to prevent it he "placed a barrier between the warp and realspace." (paraphrased, can`t quote from memory) This suggests that there was a link between realms at this point, maybe even direct overlap, so a conflict between the two beings was entirely possible (before the barrier obviously). Any thoughts on this?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> @ CotE: Really, who isn`t vulnerable against warp energy? Excluding daemons of course.


Well most things really. But I was making the general point that the Warp seems to be the C'tans only weakness.



Serpion5 said:


> @ Lux: Are you familiar with the piece of fluff quite early in the Eldar codex referring to the Gods Asuryan and Khaine? Basically, during the War in heaven, Khaine learned that the Eldar would lead to his downfall and resolved to kill them. Asuryan learned of this and to prevent it he "placed a barrier between the warp and realspace." (paraphrased, can`t quote from memory) This suggests that there was a link between realms at this point, maybe even direct overlap, so a conflict between the two beings was entirely possible (before the barrier obviously). Any thoughts on this?


Thats a good point, and may well explain a few things. The problem though is that Eldar myths are just that; myths. And although there may have been no 'barrier' so to speak around the time of the War in Heaven, the Eldar may have just explained the change by factoring in one of their gods. But regardless yes, that is a good point _Serpion_.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Well most things really. But I was making the general point that the Warp seems to be the C'tans only weakness.


I know another c`tan weakness. A stronger c`tan! :laugh:




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Thats a good point, and may well explain a few things. The problem though is that Eldar myths are just that; myths. And although there may have been no 'barrier' so to speak around the time of the War in Heaven, the Eldar may have just explained the change by factoring in one of their gods. But regardless yes, that is a good point _Serpion_.


I know these are myths, but also remember:

"long ago their existence became so blighted with this knowledge that they banished the truth to legend and hid it within the black library." nec codex, somewhere.

It seems that many of their myths are rooted in fact, so I say it is entirely probable that the Eldar Gods were the Old Ones, able to exist in both realms equally until Asuryan divided them. When this happened exactly can only be guessed at, but I have yet to find conclusive data that can prove this wrong, so you`ll forgive me if I stick by it.


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