# Orks: The Least Evil Race?



## Lolthirster (May 30, 2008)

I was thinking today about all the races in the 40k universe and noticed how orks intentions were the least corrupted

CSM: Kill Everything
Necrons: Harvest Energy for C'tan
Tyranids: Destroy Worlds for the Hive Mind
SM: Purge anything they don't like 
IG: Same as SM (I think)
Tau: Surrender to the Greater Good or die
DE: To capture and kill everything (Not sure about this)
Eldar: No idea
Orks: Looking for a good fight


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## Leaf (Feb 8, 2008)

I do not know from all the novels I read that had orks all they wanted to do was fight and kill everyone kind of like the CSM


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## thomas2 (Nov 4, 2007)

All morality is based on your own opinions, it isn't fixed. For example:

CSM: Kind of hard to defend. I'm not going to try it.
Necrons: The C'tan freed them from a painful, coveting and short lifetime. They are just paying them back with their service. C'tan eat life essence rather than star-light, which isn't nice but it's like people eating meat.
Tyranids: They kill to eat. Unless you are a vegetarian or vegan you're involved in that. you're are bad as the 'nids. Actually 'nids wouldn't be able to find enough food from plants only, so you're more evil!
SM: same as IG
IG: They're protecting mankinds uncorrupted existence, and they destroy anything that threatens that. it's not evil.
Tau: Help them make the galaxy a perfect place of universal co-operation and peace or die. It's the purest goal.
DE: They believe other races insignificant enough to be worth doing whatever they want to them, did you ever kill bugs for fun? That's their equivalent.
Eldar: Like DE but are more respectful for 'lesser' races.
Orks: They are prepared to cause endless pain and suffering for their own enjoyment, so thus most evil.


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

If were talking moral complexities, you can't get much more pure than the Tyranid. They are nothing more than a collective hive mind trying to feed itself. Nothing wrong with an animal trying to eat.


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## Lolthirster (May 30, 2008)

Leaf said:


> I do not know from all the novels I read that had orks all they wanted to do was fight and kill everyone kind of like the CSM


Similar but the reason why they're fighting is a whole lot different. Fighting=Death but there's nothing cruel and sadistic lurking beneath why they fight they just want to fight. 



thomas2 said:


> All morality is based on your own opinions, it isn't fixed. For example:
> 
> CSM: Kind of hard to defend. I'm not going to try it.
> Necrons: The C'tan freed them from a painful, coveting and short lifetime. They are just paying them back with their service. C'tan eat life essence rather than star-light, which isn't nice but it's like people eating meat.
> ...


Yeah based on your own opinions but if you look at it as a whole orks aren't fighting to purge or destroy. Fighting and killing is evil but compare it to the other races motives and it's a whole less evil



Revelations said:


> If were talking moral complexities, you can't get much more pure than the Tyranid. They are nothing more than a collective hive mind trying to feed itself. Nothing wrong with an animal trying to eat.


When animals eat it isn't destroying whole worlds


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

I'm certain these races have their own ideals of morality, so in their own minds, they are the most, "moral," or, "good guys," on the block. :biggrin:


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## Lolthirster (May 30, 2008)

Wraithian said:


> I'm certain these races have their own ideals of morality, so in their own minds, they are the most, "moral," or, "good guys," on the block. :biggrin:


Yeah or at least in my opinion but if people see stuff in their own morals what's not to say Tyranids or CSM are the least evil? as thomas2 stated.

But if you really had to compare morals without opinions then I think Orks would come out on top


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## Lord of Fenris (Mar 21, 2008)

Yup. Morality is indeed a subjective term. I suppose that killing and murder is as "right" for the followers of Khorne, as anything that we would consider "right".

And as for the Tyranids, I think they're most like a virus or a plague, than actual animals. They exhibit the same behavior. They kill anything in their path indiscriminately. They contaminate an entire world and then use the bio-mass harvested from each world, taken into their Hive ships, and use it to create more Tyranid killing machines. Much like a virus infects a single cell in the body, penetrates it, uses its own facilities to make more viruses and then finally making it destroy itself and explode. Or in the case of the worlds plundered by Tyranids, leaves them as barren rocks.


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Lolthirster said:


> When animals eat it isn't destroying whole worlds


Worlds are subjective. An Ant Eater can destroy entire colonies in a single feeding. Locust destroy entire crops. 


Lord of Fenris said:


> And as for the Tyranids, I think they're most like a virus or a plague, than actual animals. They exhibit the same behavior. They kill anything in their path indiscriminately. They contaminate an entire world and then use the bio-mass harvested from each world, taken into their Hive ships, and use it to create more Tyranid killing machines. Much like a virus infects a single cell in the body, penetrates it, uses its own facilities to make more viruses and then finally making it destroy itself and explode. Or in the case of the worlds plundered by Tyranids, leaves them as barren rocks.


But this still doesn't make them "evil" under moral terms. A virus attempts to survive as much as any other entity. 

And before anyone jumps on me with the argument; "But they're bad because they feed off other living things", so does everything else. Whether you wish to awknowledge said life is another matter. We're all feeding off of each other.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

The difference is that Tyranids lack the self awareness necessary for considerations like "Good" and "Evil" to apply. with the other races, orks are the only one that applies what they think in a completely AMORAL manner. It simply does not matter that they might die, because they were meant to fight. ALL of the other races feel the need to justify what they do, which indicates a certain recognition that what they do is "evil". orks are cokmpletely oblivious to the concept that what they do might be considered bad. Even Dark eldar are immoral, and they recognize the fact, and embrace it.


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## newt_e (Jan 1, 2008)

Going by the Fall of Medusa buzzwords:

SM: Honour
Tau: Research
IG: Hold
CSM: Corrupt
Orks: Waaagh!
Eldar: Preserve
DE: Enslave
Tyrannids: Devour
Necrons: Harvest

I'd probably say that SM, IG, Tau and Eldar were least corrupted.
But most of the races do whatever is "natural" for them.


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

Since this is an attempt at arguing objective morality, and thus silly, I hereby take offense at your lumping all of the forces of Chaos together for the purposes of determining motivation and morality.

Sure, some of renegade warbands and traitor legions are acting immorally. Other warbands may well have greater purposes and are driven by necessity to use their given tactics. The Empirium destroys entire worlds given "sufficient" justification. How many people are sacrificed "for the good of Mankind" on Terra every day? Where is the morality in leading a society in opposition to the development of humanity?


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

I wouldnt say the Tyranids are 'Evil' but for the same reasons as mentioned above.
I would go on to say that Tau are 'Good' but then no race in the Galaxy is marked as a Paladin, they all condemn the others to survive.
Dark Eldar though... That much spandex just cant be good... 
No race will view themselves as Evil. But they will most likely view the other Races as Wrong (or lesser).
The Necrons themselves are not Evil, just very... Very unfond of ... 'Living things'
I started writing this before reading the bulk of the thread's comments. So don't lynch me if I'm repeating someone else or stepping on toes


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

Im pretty sure the Dark Eldar see themselves as evil, they just like it....no one can be that sadistic and not know that it's wrong, they just don't give a shit!


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## Tankworks (Jul 20, 2008)

Whose morality, your morality or my morality? To wit 'Those evil bastards in the U-boats' vs 'Our gallant lads in the submarine fleet'


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## NerdyOgre254 (Jul 16, 2008)

Morality means different things for different people.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

thomas2 said:


> All morality is based on your own opinions, it isn't fixed. For example:
> 
> CSM: Kind of hard to defend. I'm not going to try it.
> Necrons: The C'tan freed them from a painful, coveting and short lifetime. They are just paying them back with their service. C'tan eat life essence rather than star-light, which isn't nice but it's like people eating meat.
> ...


I was going to agree with Lolthirster, but you make a compelling arguement.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Good, bad, whatever.

Orks are distinguished by their simplicity (and thus, in my opinion, purity) of purpose.

Morality be damned.


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## Lolthirster (May 30, 2008)

newt_e said:


> Going by the Fall of Medusa buzzwords:
> 
> SM: Honour
> Tau: Research
> ...


Of course it'd say that because Medusa 5 is an imperial planet if it was a different planet SM,IG,Tau and Eldar would gladly bomb it



solkan said:


> Since this is an attempt at arguing objective morality, and thus silly, I hereby take offense at your lumping all of the forces of Chaos together for the purposes of determining motivation and morality.
> 
> Sure, some of renegade warbands and traitor legions are acting immorally. Other warbands may well have greater purposes and are driven by necessity to use their given tactics. The Empirium destroys entire worlds given "sufficient" justification. How many people are sacrificed "for the good of Mankind" on Terra every day? Where is the morality in leading a society in opposition to the development of humanity?


I never said that SM and IG were good they're almost as evil as CSM



Concrete Hero said:


> I wouldnt say the Tyranids are 'Evil' but for the same reasons as mentioned above.
> I would go on to say that Tau are 'Good' but then no race in the Galaxy is marked as a Paladin, they all condemn the others to survive.
> Dark Eldar though... That much spandex just cant be good...
> No race will view themselves as Evil. But they will most likely view the other Races as Wrong (or lesser).
> ...


Tau aren't good. They want you to get rid of all your beliefs and submit to them or die. I agree with you on no race will view themselves as evil but Necrons really want to kill everything we could say that Tyranids are just really, really hungry 



Tankworks said:


> Whose morality, your morality or my morality? To wit 'Those evil bastards in the U-boats' vs 'Our gallant lads in the submarine fleet'


Meh I think we have to look at it as a whole without an opinion (if that's even possible) and decide who's morality is better


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

It depends entirely upon your perspective. E.g. We're all human (Well mostly...) so we tend to empathise with the Imperium and therefore view other species as the "evil" ones. However if you look at it from their perspective it's not so crystal clear.

Chaos, Orks and Dark Eldar all know that what they're doing inflicts pain and suffering to other life forms and therefore imo can categorically be placed as evil, just because it's within their socially acceptable boundarys to do it doesn't mean it's not evil.

Nids and Necrons are both as mentioned above simply workers feeding a bigger thing they have no conscience knowledge of and therefore imo are categorised as not evil as such but evil from the perspective of everybody else.

Eldar, who knows? They manipulate other races into doing things which causes untold numbers of deaths just to save one Eldar life. Sounds evil enough to me, but then when you consider it in a different way. How many rats would you kill in order to save your families lives?

The Imperium and the Space Marines. Fully conscience of their actions and still they slaughter and destroy across the universe. They promote structure and stability but only under the guise of a monotheistic religion... The only small bit of reassurance they can take is that whatever it is they're killing (i.e. most other races) it has it's own agenda which involves killing them.

The Tau Empire, works under the philosophy of the Greater Good and sounds communistic. The only problem is communism doesn't work unless the guy at the top is a good one and you better hope the rest under him are good too and so on and so forth. They destroy those who don't agree to subside... Not exactly nice.


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Lolthirster 
Fair enough. I never ment to say Tau were good, I just worded it wrong (Join 'Our' Greater Good or we kill you)
But the Necrons have a good reason to hate the living, but its mostly out of spite now.


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## marcch (Apr 1, 2008)

I believe the Tau are the best choice of a poor lot, the exception being the Tyranids. They are a hive species, and as a collective (examples on earth such as ants, bees etc...) they work for their "Greater Good" if you will. Therefore are not evil in the true meaning of the word, but a species merely following their natural instincts and drives for survival.


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## Orc Town Grot (Jun 28, 2008)

Ha, Nice Topic!

Orks are not the evilist race! No way! They don't have the brains to be truly evil!

Also orks are not truly vile to other races, mainly because they are usually so busy clobbering and blasting and bullying each other. Nasty rather than evil.

And orks are so often amusing in their clumsiness and foolishness and falling over themselves to get into a fight.

They are certainly belligerent and brutal though, so wouldn't go to far in terms of moral defence for the ethical "goodness" of orks.

This is an interesting thread because I think your question points out something pretty interesting: the game presents all the races as xenophobic, racist and genocidal. There are actually no truly good guys AT ALL. Well maybe the Imperium hints at virtue, if only they weren't busily reducing planets accused of "heresy" to ash. The Tau hint at virtue, "The Greater Good" but it really sounds like some kind of communist oppression really.

In Warhammer, we have a little more to scope of good guys in the form of woodelves. Those tree hugging hippies that only come out of their cubby huts to defend the environment!

40K is pretty much a moral desert.

So you have to remember that the whole literature is kind of a comedy actually....

OTG


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## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

*Eldar*

Orks enjoy fighting and the thrill that comes with it. They aren't evil so much, they don't wish anyone ill, they just want them to come fight. They are not motivated by a desire to do evil, it is just a byproduct of the things they enjoy.

Dark Eldar I would say are the most vile. They have a society based on torture and slavery. They go to war in order to inflict as much pain and suffering on their opponents as possible knowing full well what they are doing. Most CSM aren't that depraved. They are just honoring their gods. They are no worse than Aztecs.


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## Lolthirster (May 30, 2008)

Digg40k said:


> It depends entirely upon your perspective. E.g. We're all human (Well mostly...) so we tend to empathise with the Imperium and therefore view other species as the "evil" ones. However if you look at it from their perspective it's not so crystal clear.
> 
> Chaos, Orks and Dark Eldar all know that what they're doing inflicts pain and suffering to other life forms and therefore imo can categorically be placed as evil, just because it's within their socially acceptable boundarys to do it doesn't mean it's not evil.
> 
> ...


The orks kill but you have to look further beyond that they are evil but not as evil as CSM or DE because the mentality of why they fight isn't like Chaos but because it's fun.



Concrete Hero said:


> Lolthirster
> Fair enough. I never ment to say Tau were good, I just worded it wrong (Join 'Our' Greater Good or we kill you)
> But the Necrons have a good reason to hate the living, but its mostly out of spite now.


I thought Necrons were enslaved by the C'Tan and can't feel emotion? I'm not sure but if that's the case then Necrons could be the new non evilest race.



marcch said:


> I believe the Tau are the best choice of a poor lot, the exception being the Tyranids. They are a hive species, and as a collective (examples on earth such as ants, bees etc...) they work for their "Greater Good" if you will. Therefore are not evil in the true meaning of the word, but a species merely following their natural instincts and drives for survival.


I think Tau are one of the most evil things in the 40k universe simply because they will kill you because of your beliefs (does anyone remember a man who did that?)



Orc Town Grot said:


> Ha, Nice Topic!
> 
> Orks are not the evilist race! No way! They don't have the brains to be truly evil!
> 
> ...


Lol I never thought of it like that really, I'll be sure to look our for Space marines quoting Monty Python.



Pauly55 said:


> Orks enjoy fighting and the thrill that comes with it. They aren't evil so much, they don't wish anyone ill, they just want them to come fight. They are not motivated by a desire to do evil, it is just a byproduct of the things they enjoy.
> 
> Dark Eldar I would say are the most vile. They have a society based on torture and slavery. They go to war in order to inflict as much pain and suffering on their opponents as possible knowing full well what they are doing. Most CSM aren't that depraved. They are just honoring their gods. They are no worse than Aztecs.


Exactly what I thought.


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## fool injected (Sep 14, 2008)

Of course we are the least evil. We just want to fight. How simple can that be!!!

People at my game store say that orks are just misunderstood!


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## thomas2 (Nov 4, 2007)

> I think Tau are one of the most evil things in the 40k universe simply because they will kill you because of your beliefs (does anyone remember a man who did that?)


And the Imperium kill you if you aren't human, or have different beliefs. Chaos also kills for beliefs. So how does that make them 'one of the most evil things in the 40K universe' when everyone does it?



> Dark Eldar I would say are the most vile. They have a society based on torture and slavery. They go to war in order to inflict as much pain and suffering on their opponents as possible knowing full well what they are doing.


To them their opponents are nothing, insignificant worms that it doesn't matter what they do to them. I used this analogy earlier, but it's so good I'll use it again. Calling DE evil is like calling people who torture bugs evil. Perhaps they are a bit, but on the greater scale of things they are nothing. Other races better understand the others being 'equal', yet they don't get called as evil for killing them.



> The orks kill but you have to look further beyond that they are evil but not as evil as CSM or DE because the mentality of why they fight isn't like Chaos but because it's fun.


How evil would you consider someone who kills other people for fun? Very. Oh, and isn't DE torturing people for fun much the same? The Orks lack of intelligence and ability to work out alternative ways to live is the only real defence, and yes they aren't one of the most evil, but they're not the least.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

thomas2 said:


> And the Imperium kill you if you aren't human, or have different beliefs. Chaos also kills for beliefs. So how does that make them 'one of the most evil things in the 40K universe' when everyone does it?
> ...


To me the Imperium and Chaos are worse than Tau. Tau at least give you the _option_. "Change your beliefs or die!" is surely less brutal than "Change your DNA or die!". I mean, you could at least _think_ about the first one. The Tau don't care about your genetics, just your aquiescence (which, really, isn't genetically determined as far as we can tell).

The Tau's enemies would kill them because they are Tau (Imperium) or just because (Chaos). The Tau would be happy "peacefully" absorbing everyone into their militaristic, caste-ridden, mercantile, expansionist Empire (so, nothing to do with Communism at all, more like Fascism in my book). That ain't gonna happen with the humans. You ain't human (enough) for the Imperium, you're dead. That's pretty horribly racist (so, also quite like Fascism). Only the Eldar are that bad as far as I can see, being also horribly racist.

So, Orks, Tau, Tyrranids, Necrons, not racist; Humans and Eldar, very racist; Chaos and DE, quite racist but frankly with all their other agendas of pain and death, why pick on that one?

:looking at the possibility of surrenduring to the greater good cyclops:


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

I've explained this before. It's all about point of view (Star Wars fan). You see, the Imperium thinks that the CSM are vile traitors who should all be killed and are generally evil. Meanwhile the CSM think that the Imperium is an evil dictatorship which should be destroyed so that they can be free. Or something of the sort. The Space Marines think that the Tyranids are evil and should be annihilated. But the Tyranids think that the Space Marines are the bad-guys who should be killed. 

There is no right or wrong; there are only points of view. And there is only war.

EDIT: Why would an Ork want to surrender to the greater good? Orks hate the Tau and their dakka dakka dakka!


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Nah, tyrannids don't think SMs are the bad guys, just food in inconvenient tins (there's never a genestealer around when you need one, I'm sure I put it back in the draw, have you moved the genestealer darling?...)

And Orks don't _hate_ anything. Except boredom. And stinkin Blood Axes. They just think Tau are stupid.

:the point about the greater good is that it is at least in theory possible to surrender to it unlike the Imperium that will kill me just being a cyclops:


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

Yes but what I meant was that the Tau think that the Greater Good is the best and the Imperium is made up of terrible tyrants (lol alliteration), except for a few rare humans who join the Greater Good. But the Space Marines think that the Imperium is the best and that the Greater Good is blasphemous and evil. Thus, there are only certain points of view. There is no right or wrong.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

I get that. I agree, about the Imperium, Eldar, Chaos, DE, and Tau. All evil, though some more pragmatic than others. All are self-conscious aware individuals who have (or have made) "choices".

Disagree about orks, nids, necrons. That's not a "point of view". It just _is_. Nids can't decide _not_ to be hungry, though the Imperium _can_ decide not to be insane. Orks can't decide _not_ to be violent, though the Eldar _can_ decide not to be racist. Necrons can't decide _not_ to be the Star-Gods' harvesters, though the Tau _can_ decide not to be smug ideologues. That's the difference.

Germs aren't evil - neither are nids. Storms aren't evil - neither are orks. Gravity isn't evil - neither are Necrons. Just, like, natural forces.

:not buying the POV argument:


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Red Orc said:


> I get that. I agree, about the Imperium, Eldar, Chaos, DE, and Tau. All evil, though some more pragmatic than others. All are self-conscious aware individuals who have (or have made) "choices".
> 
> Disagree about orks, nids, necrons. That's not a "point of view". It just _is_. Nids can't decide _not_ to be hungry, though the Imperium _can_ decide not to be insane. Orks can't decide _not_ to be violent, though the Eldar _can_ decide not to be racist. Necrons can't decide _not_ to be the Star-Gods' harvesters, though the Tau _can_ decide not to be smug ideologues. That's the difference.
> 
> ...


And Hopefully with that this can rest in peace  Nice


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

solkan said:


> Since this is an attempt at arguing objective morality, and thus silly, I hereby take offense at your lumping all of the forces of Chaos together for the purposes of determining motivation and morality.
> 
> Sure, some of renegade warbands and traitor legions are acting immorally. Other warbands may well have greater purposes and are driven by necessity to use their given tactics. The Empirium destroys entire worlds given "sufficient" justification. How many people are sacrificed "for the good of Mankind" on Terra every day? Where is the morality in leading a society in opposition to the development of humanity?


This is more of a discussion of immorality versus amorality, 'nids and orks are amoral, as they are simply behaving as their drives dictate, where the rest are acting upon belief and ambition.


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## XV8crisis (Jul 31, 2008)

there's no "good guys" in 40k, just varying degrees of evil. However, i reckon the Tau are the "goodest" race, as they want the benefit of everyone in their empire and always offer newly encountered races the opportunity of joining their empire.

But Farsight is a tool of the Necrontyr.


_______________________________________________________________________
_Gemini is rising. My Lord, it is time. We go to war!!_


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

*Tau would be a 21st Century human's homeboyz*

Tau are the most open/enlightened society in 40k.

They accept Xenos as allies and equals.

They give people a chance to join them or evacuate before they take over a planet.

Orks have numerous human worlds under slavery.


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## Underground Heretic (Aug 9, 2008)

Waz wrong wid da Boyz? We just likes fightin. Greyskins don like fightin' cauz dey fight like snivvlin lil grotz, Hummies is no good at fightin, cept dem Marinies. da Eldar don know whether de like fightin or dont. Now da crazy hummies in red de really like fightin. Des almost orky. Gotta go catch my squig...Here boy!


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Sons of Russ said:


> Tau are the most open/enlightened society in 40k.
> 
> They accept Xenos as allies and equals.
> 
> ...


slavery under a collar and slavery under a social structure are still slavery. First thing you frgot to mention ( the tau do the same) is the caste system. If not all tau are equal, how can outsiders be considered equal. Join or evacuate is no more enlightened than join or die, it just has better pr implications. 
to say that orks having slaves makes them evil would reqire that orks act on more than drives, (basic biological impulses) and have a system of morality. Evil is a concept bases upon systems of morality, since Orks have none, they are beyond ideas of good or evil.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

ok i only read to the second page on this so dont rail me

CSM: These believe that THEY were betrayed by the Emperor and thier brothers so THEY believe what they do is right to attain revenge
SM: They can be seen as religious zealots. They were made to protect the Imperium no matter what the cost and so they do their job
IG: same as SM but not zealots
Tau: Somewhat like Empire building way back when. They say they embrace everyone but treat other people(races) like second class citizens
Orks: The truly ignorant, they fight cuz they luv it
Eldar: They are fighting to preserve themselves
DE: same as eldar just using different ways
Nids: No mind of its own, does what it was created to do, KILL
Necrons: They are mindless with the exception of the necron lords so IDK


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## Critta (Aug 6, 2008)

thomas2 said:


> CSM: Kind of hard to defend. I'm not going to try it.


Are killing and destroying because they feel they were wronged and in the name of their (Chaos) gods.



thomas2 said:


> Necrons: The C'tan freed them from a painful, coveting and short lifetime. They are just paying them back with their service. C'tan eat life essence rather than star-light, which isn't nice but it's like people eating meat.


Are programmed to kill and destroy if their resting places are disturbed, they were programmed by their gods the C'tan



thomas2 said:


> Tyranids: They kill to eat. Unless you are a vegetarian or vegan you're involved in that. you're are bad as the 'nids. Actually 'nids wouldn't be able to find enough food from plants only, so you're more evil!


Not a bad analogy here - however you miss a step, they kill to eat so they can create more organisms to kill more and eat more. They live to kill, therefore they're pretty damned evil.



thomas2 said:


> SM: same as IG
> IG: They're protecting mankinds uncorrupted existence, and they destroy anything that threatens that. it's not evil.


Rubbish, they're fighting because they're told to by petty buraucrats in the name of their god emperor. Massively Xenophobic, even when dealing with peaceful alien races would rather destroy them utterly than come to a diplomatic solution. They believe they are not evil, but many of the methods used by the Imperium are strangely reminiscent of Nazi Germany. Most definitely as evil as any other race in the 40k universe.



thomas2 said:


> Tau: Help them make the galaxy a perfect place of universal co-operation and peace or die. It's the purest goal.


Basically Communist viewpoint on the universe, more than happy to let other races continue to exist if they think they will provide a use to the Tau. More than happy to exterminate those races they don't think will be of use. Everyone always assumes "The Greater Good" is a good thing, what if it is more sinister than that? Arguable reasonably good intentioned at the moment, but then so was the imperium of man during previous times of prosperity.




thomas2 said:


> DE: They believe other races insignificant enough to be worth doing whatever they want to them, did you ever kill bugs for fun? That's their equivalent.


Live to cause pain and suffering to others. Utterly and undeniably evil.



thomas2 said:


> Eldar: Like DE but are more respectful for 'lesser' races.


Messed up pretty badly in the past and brought into existence Slaanesh and fucked the universe sideways for several hundred millenia. From those evil roots they are not basically trying to survive and act as the universes police force to stop anyone from making their mistakes again. Will kill without compunction to achive this goal - of all the races, arguably the most noble (now).



thomas2 said:


> Orks: They are prepared to cause endless pain and suffering for their own enjoyment, so thus most evil.


Genetically engineered to enjoy conquest and war, much like the tyranids, they don't do it because they enjoy it, they do it because that's how they were genetically engineered - their actions are evil, but they're just doing what they were engineered to do.


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Critta
Would you a Virus Evil? It invades cells so it can recreate more of its self to survive. As Healthcare improves to combat viruses, the virus has to improve to get past this defence. Tyranids don't engineer more vicious creatures because their evil, their just more effective at what they do.

(Now don't nitpick about Viruses/bacteria/medecine. The r-e-a-s-o-n-i-n-g is sound)

This thread should really end now... Debating morals will jsut go on for ever


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## Critta (Aug 6, 2008)

The difference in my mind is that in the hive mind, the Tyranids have a quantifiable intelligence - they are intelligently choosing to kill and destroy and are bred as a race to achieve that aim.

Viruses don't have a quantifiable intelligence, ergo, not evil.

Also - why should the thread end because it will go on for ever, there is nothing wrong with debating points of view, it's ultimately pretty fruitless, but quite fun in that fruitlessness


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Ok I'll give you that. 
But they've multiplied to such a stage that they HAVE to advance forward, consuming all in their path simply to survive. It may seem harsh but it's what they have to do to survive, it's not really a choice.

I know it wont end, but its got that cringeworthy-ness about it

(I suppose I quite enjoy it too )


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## Critta (Aug 6, 2008)

But do they need to move forward? The tyranid invasion organisms are all destroyed after they have captured a planet only to be created again when they reach the next planet in order to repeat the process again, and their hive ships can survive for the millenia it takes to travel from one galaxy to another without sustenance. There is no real proof that they have to destroy the planets in order to continue to exist.

We know nothing of the forces which cause the tyranids to do as they do, but from all indications in the fluff they are an intelligent race who destroy and eat in order to have the energy needed to destroy more and eat more.


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Fai enough
Buddy list for you Critta!


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Nids are like locusts. They consume and move on. There is no malice in their actions in the same way as there is no malice in the locusts swarm that destroyes crops and causes the starvation of tens of thousands of people.

Tyranids must consume to live, ergo they are not evil in the classical sense.

Orks do not needs to destroy worlds and slay non-agressive populations to survive. They choose to do it, ergo they are the epitome of evil in the classical sense.

But bear in mind that this is purely an academic debate, and that there is no answer to this question.

There is no universal stand point, everything is true or false only from a specific point of view.


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## Critta (Aug 6, 2008)

The difference I see between the 'nids and locusts is that the tyranid race is controlled by the intelligence of the hive mind, which means there is a concious aware intelligence driving them to the destruction they cause. Locusts are just eating machines which work on instinct.

The difference of intelligence is an important one, locusts eat because that's what they need to do to survive and don't know any better, the Tyranids have an intelligence guiding them to the acts of destruction that they cause thus could be arguably seen as commiting evil acts as they are not just mindless eating machines.

Orcs on the other hand sit somewhere in between, they have intelligence, but hard coded into their genes is the need for conflict and war. Take Skynet from the terminator films as a comparison, it is programmed to destroy any threat and decides that humanity is a threat. Is Skynet "evil" for doing what it is programmed to do? Think of orks as an organic computer who are programmed to conquer, are they evil from following their genetic program?

It's a narrow difference and ultimately a pretty pointless discussion, but I don't know, I quite enjoy purely philisophical debates as it's interesting seeing how other people think!


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## Captain Toal (Sep 17, 2008)

i have to say something about the nids. they as a whole are not intelligent when under the hive mind's control. the hive mind, as far as i know from what ive read on it, is not intelligence as we believe it. it is intelligence in that it can make command decisions on the battlefield and irect the rest of the nids, it was not made to feel morals or beliefs much like a robot, it has no soul. it is a single purpose mind, one built to kill worlds, and it does this without fail because that is obviously what the nids were made for. 

BUT when the hive mind is destroyed the nids go back to their animalistic instincts meaning they can make decisions for themselves but since they are animals they have no morals and cant understand morals. nuff said about the nids.

as for the orks they do know what is right and what is wrong because i have read before how they have their own sort of caste system grots at the bottom with human slaves and so on. they are primitive in their mindset but they DO have morals, they just dont coincide with OUR morals because of how they were made, why they were made, and their viewpoint. like it has been said before, morals are subjective, so in effect anyone in the 40k universe can be said to be the MOST evil or the MOST good. 

the chaos marines can be postured as the most good(sorry about the grammar) simply because they were wronged greatly and seek to avenge themselves which is very admirable.....from their point of view. the battle they fight is to topple a tyrannical imperium that does not give its people simple freedom and seeks to gain only for itself at the detriment of its people, chaos marines seek to destroy this. 

so you see i could defend any one race and say it is the least evil, it all depends on the point of view.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Intelligence has no relevance to the Nid example. If they have an IQ of 1,000,000 or and IQ of 12, they need to consume or they cease to exist. The instinct of the Nids is to eat, they are intelligent enough to know how to do that well. 

Orks do not need to wage war to exist, but they do it anyway. Conquest for control of territory, for the fun of killing, sounds far more evil than what the Nids do.

Some people argue that Humans that eat meat are evil because we could just eat plants.

I don't think that eating cows makes me evil, just because I have an intelligence that tells me I am able to survive by eating only plants but chose to eat meat. What makes the Nids different to that?


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Captain Toal said:


> i have to say something about the nids. they as a whole are not intelligent when under the hive mind's control. the hive mind, as far as i know from what ive read on it, is not intelligence as we believe it. it is intelligence in that it can make command decisions on the battlefield and irect the rest of the nids, it was not made to feel morals or beliefs much like a robot, it has no soul. it is a single purpose mind, one built to kill worlds, and it does this without fail because that is obviously what the nids were made for.
> 
> BUT when the hive mind is destroyed the nids go back to their animalistic instincts meaning they can make decisions for themselves but since they are animals they have no morals and cant understand morals. nuff said about the nids.
> 
> ...


Ahh, but the Hive mind is a Psyker, So it has to have a Soul! 
(Look at the pariah's and Culexus(spelling?) assasins)

Oh and +rep to you Critta for changing my mind on the subject


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## Critta (Aug 6, 2008)

darklove said:


> Intelligence has no relevance to the Nid example. If they have an IQ of 1,000,000 or and IQ of 12, they need to consume or they cease to exist. The instinct of the Nids is to eat, they are intelligent enough to know how to do that well.


Ok, so the tyranid race is not intelligent? Then please explain to me how genestealer cults manage to infiltrate and take over human societies. Are you honestly telling me that an insiduous organism which can take over entire planetary governments as a precursor to an invasion fleet has no intelligence?



darklove said:


> Orks do not need to wage war to exist, but they do it anyway. Conquest for control of territory, for the fun of killing, sounds far more evil than what the Nids do.


It's a fair cop guv'nor, the actions of the Orks are evil, plain and simple. However I find it quite comical that in the space of the same post you state that one race which is bred to eat is not evil because is "just doing what comes on instinct" when the Orks nature to wage war and control territory is also instinctual and built into their genetic code.

So it's ok for Tyranids to have an instinct to devour entire worlds led by one overwhelming higher intelligence, but on the other hand the ork's genetic coding which makes them need conflict and war isn't valid because they have individual intelligence?

I agree it all comes down to personal views, but I honestly think the Orks and Tyranids are in a similar boat, both races are predisposed to destruction and war - Tyranids due to the influence of the hive mind guiding their actions and Orks due to the genetic coding left by the race which created them.


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## KellysGrenadier (Jul 13, 2008)

All races are evil. That is undeniable. However, it's comparative to the definition of evil. And there is a clear-cut definition.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Critta said:


> Ok, so the tyranid race is not intelligent? Then please explain to me how genestealer cults manage to infiltrate and take over human societies. Are you honestly telling me that an insiduous organism which can take over entire planetary governments as a precursor to an invasion fleet has no intelligence?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did you even read what I wrote? You quoted it but not understood it.

I did not say that Nids are not intelligent, quite the opposite. What I *DID *say was that intelligence was not relevant to the question of if they are good or evil.

An organism must do certain things in order to survive. There are fundamental 'needs' (Maslow's Hierarchy) that everything requires - like food. Nids eat to survive, the fact they eat intelligent races is neither here nor there. An act of basic survival can't be called evil.


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## Critta (Aug 6, 2008)

But Tyranids don't eat to survive - the hive ships that the lesser organisms are spawned from have surived the time it takes to float from one *galaxy* to the next without being able to eat and are still in existence and have still have the resources to create an entire invasion force. If they can survive for this long without eating, it stands to reason that they don't need to eat in order to survive.

The tyranid organisms which carry out the planetary assaults are all destroyed at the end of the assault and returned to biomass with the rest of the mass from the planet - so they don't eat to survive - they kill for the biomass and will die regardless of whether they eat or not.

It's not eating for survival for the smaller organisms, as they will be destroyed regardless.

The hive mind is more of a group intelligence and cannot be destroyed in any conventional sense.

My point is that I fail to see how any of this could be considered eating to survive , they kill and destroy in order to kill and destroy more.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Critta said:


> But Tyranids don't eat to survive - the hive ships that the lesser organisms are spawned from have surived the time it takes to float from one *galaxy* to the next without being able to eat and are still in existence and have still have the resources to create an entire invasion force. If they can survive for this long without eating, it stands to reason that they don't need to eat in order to survive.


They collected enough bio mass to sustain them going from one galaxy to another. The biomass feeds the hive mind, it also creates their invasion forces and repairs their hive ships. It is their one and only resource they need and it covers everything, food, raw materials for creation everything. 

They destroy the nids that were in the invasion force because they have little unique intelligence and it is easier to remake them than it is to pick them up, feed them on the journey, make sure they don't fight each other all that crap.

Darklove had it right in my eyes. Going to maslow's heirachy as he mentioned, base needs like food and nutrients are what the tyranids go for. the orks have the base needs covered, they go for a higher level in the heirarchy and the higher it goes the more selfish it gets, therefore IMO, orks aren't very evil, but they're a damn sight more evil than tyranids


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

OMG never though we would be discussing Maslow's Hierarchy on this forum!

Seriously cool! :victory:


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Yeah it is a bit out there but it has relevance!! Woo!


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

The fact that the orks are satisfiyng a need does not make them evil, even when the means to satisfying that need is destructive. The main component of evil, especially as defined within this thread, is commiting a destructive act despite the ability to avoid committing the act without harm to oneself. Since we are functionally familiar with Maslow's theories regarding needs and drives, as both the tyranid and ork behaviors are a result of drives and not simply a matter of choosing to be anti-social, neither can be classified as "Evil", as that requires intent. 

A large part of this thread seems to be an attempt to classify xenos races as evil in order to justify fighting them. This is not necessary, as the example of tyranids as locusts illustrates beautifully, Locusts are not evil, yet you still take measures to defend against them because they are destructive . Fighting a maurading band of orks is not a matter of "Good" vs. "Evil", it is one group defending itself agaqinst another.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Critta said:


> Ok, so the tyranid race is not intelligent? Then please explain to me how genestealer cults manage to infiltrate and take over human societies. Are you honestly telling me that an insiduous organism which can take over entire planetary governments as a precursor to an invasion fleet has no intelligence?


Actually that was retconned along with genestealer patriarchs, genestealer hybrids, genestealer magus, and the limousine.

Good memory though lol, but I don't believe they're actually that clever anymore.


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Son of mortarion said:


> A large part of this thread seems to be an attempt to classify xenos races as evil in order to justify fighting them. This is not necessary, as the example of tyranids as locusts illustrates beautifully, Locusts are not evil, yet you still take measures to defend against them because they are destructive . Fighting a maurading band of orks is not a matter of "Good" vs. "Evil", it is one group defending itself agaqinst another.


Another eloquent metaphor by Rev; got to love it... ok, vanity moment out of the way.

Back when I larped for a brief period of time, we often got into debates about the moralities behind certain orders or alignments, Chaos being one of them. One of my "team" (for the lack of better terminology) said; "We can discuss the finer points of their intentions later. In the mean time, I'm going to kill it before it can kill me." Or something perhaps a bit more unrefined. 

Arguing moral fiber over basic function is pretty moot. The toaster isn't good simply because it's making toast; it's doing its job. 

I suspect the thread may continue down paths of personal opinion; the only thing you could do is to specify your particular interpretations of evil, and then go from there. But hey, whatever works. :wink:


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## kholek09 (Feb 4, 2009)

When animals eat it isn't destroying whole worlds[/QUOTE]

you should see my dog at dinnertime


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## Gul Torgo (Mar 31, 2008)

To address the point about Tyranids destroying the individuals that directly attack a world, it is important to remember that this is a gestalt organism. It was sacrificing a pittance of its total biomass in order to feed itself.

Think of it as the fact that, as you eat, you are slowly but surely wearing your teeth down. It is more efficient for your body to repair this damage than to make your teeth so strong that they are indestructible. That the Hivefleets sacrifice guants to feed the whole is no more evil than you sacrificing some enamel off of your teeth to eat a meal.


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## Lord of Rebirth (Jun 7, 2008)

Tau may kill people and such "for the greater good" but they are very open to cooperating and helping people. Also Eldar care more about things staying nice at least on some planets or you can bet they would just go around blowing up Imperial and chaos worlds.


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## xiawujing (Mar 2, 2009)

Welcome to 40K! Where everyone's a bad guy, and saying your favorite team isn't bad is a matter of opinion!


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

I agree, there's none of them 'nice' is there? I mean, you wouldn't invite them round to babysit your kids.

There's only varying degrees of "slightly less horrible".

:actually quite glad to be where he is cyclops:


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