# Belief that Guilliman is healing causing him to heal?



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Just a little theory of mine...

Guilliman's body is kept at temple on Macragge. Imperial subjects flock to his shrine to pay homage to him and most likely to worship him (I doubt they wouldn't worship a primarch in the ultra-religious 41st millennium). 

The primarch is "rumoured" to be healing in stasis. The idea isn't that whacky if the stasis field containing Guilliman slows time down to crawl (instead of freezing it). Now in 40K, belief affects reality and miracles are known to happen (SoB saints for example). Perhaps the widespread belief that Guilliman is healing is actually causing Guilliman to heal every so slowly. 

Thoughts?


----------



## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

As humanity is supposedly a psychic race (with the majority below the threshold of having real power), and we know the warp is shaped by thought, it makes sense that immense belief is producing the result believed in.


----------



## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Guilliman was placed in stasis mere moments before his death. Rumours of his healing have only become 'widespread' in the 41st Millennium nearly ten thousand years latter. If it is true that the stasis chamber only slows time (which does seem more plausible) then I think it's more likely that he died than that he is actually healing.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

In actual fact, as of all recent fluff, he IS dead, not on the brink. He died and they preserved his body in a stasis field. I know belief can do alot in the 40k world, but resurrecting a primarch? I think not.


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Wasn't the blade that struck him down poisoned? It could also be that he is on the verge of dying but the stasis field is slowing that, as opposed to allowing him to heal. 



Angel of Blood said:


> In actual fact, as of all recent fluff, he IS dead, not on the brink.


Where does it state outright that he is dead?


----------



## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> In actual fact, as of all recent fluff, he IS dead, not on the brink. He died and they preserved his body in a stasis field. I know belief can do alot in the 40k world, but resurrecting a primarch? I think not.


Angel of Blood is correct. Guilliman isnt healing he is infact DEAD, Captain Uriel Ventris of the Ultramarines himself states that all the pilgrims coming to the temple to see this 'mircle' are fools as his primarch is little more than a corpse on a throne(much like the Emperor). Reference: The Ultramariens Omnibus.


----------



## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

If that is the only reference you have regarding the supposed death of Robute than that does not convince me, I mean who the fck is Uriel (I know who he is), if Tigurius would have mentioned this that would have been different


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Agreed, I take the comment from Uriel as nothing more than his thoughts on the subject, he has no way of knowing.

Its the same as taking a random comment of the Word Bearers that the Ultramarines numbers were due to absorbing the two sanctioned legions.


----------



## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Although Uriel Ventris holds rank in the chapter and is the main protagonist for the entire Ultramarine novel series...

He's a credible character if ever there were one.


----------



## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

He is just a captain 10 K years after Guilliman his death, I am not convinced they tell captains all the secret lore of the chapter. 
Besides it would unsettle the balance
Chaos has
Fulgrim
Perturabo
Lorgar
Angron
Omegon (and maybe alpharius)
Mortarion

the empirium has
khan (maybe)
corax (maybe)
russ (maybe)
vulkan (maybe)
the Lion
Guilliman (maybe)

So I just do not buy it, not that I am a UM fanboy far from it but GW has more interest in having Robute potential alive than declaring him dead


----------



## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

A captain.

He is one of only ten marines in the entire chapter with that rank. It is, in fact, perhaps the second or third highest rank in a chapter, before chapter master/commander or chief librarian.

So yeah. Second highest rank in the entire chapter, and yet you assume he wouldn't know.

Sounds.... logical....


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Uriel Ventris is a fairly credible person when it comes to that sort of thing. When he delivers said opinion to us (his audience), I doubt it comes courtesy of a "I just figured it's that way" thought process. It strikes me as contrary to a member of a Chapter for whom all things central to their origins are treated with religious veneration. I assume his opinion comes via Chapter indoctrination. As in, the Ultramarines teach their battle-brethren that Guilliman is dead.

_That having been said,_ the Ultramarines are not infallible. Much of what they treat with religious veneration they are, point in fact, rather ignorant about. The most glaring example I can think of is the Codex Astartes, which they treat as a verbatim "how-to" - even though Guilliman's own vision was a much more open-minded one (ironically, much like Ventris' own thought process). As such, it's not much of a stretch for them to have allowed mysticism and incorrect belief to taint their thinking on other matters (such as Guilliman's status).

Thus, I would not be at all surprised if it were revealed to us that a Primarch's miraculous powers could defy near-death AND the effects of stasis.

EDIT: here's the passage in question, for those who are curious -



> _Even in death the primarch's features spoke of great courage and fortitude and were it not for the glistening wound upon his neck, Uriel would have sworn that the giant warrior could stand and march from the temple. He felt a cold, steel rage as his eyes fixed upon the scarlet wound. Beads of blood, like tiny, glittering rubies, were held immobile below the primarch's neck, suspended in mid air by the static time stream within. Guilliman's life had been cut short by the envenomed blade of the traitor primarch, Fulgrim of the Emperor's Children, his works undone, his legacy unfulfilled and in that lay the greatest tragedy of Guilliman's death.
> 
> Uriel knew that there were those who believed that the primarch's wounds were slowly healing and claimed he would one day arise from his throne. How such an impossibility could occur within the time-sealed bubble of a stasis field was a matter such prophets ascribed to the infallible will of the Emperor._


Cheers,
P.


----------



## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

Baltar said:


> A captain.
> 
> He is one of only ten marines in the entire chapter with that rank. It is, in fact, perhaps the second or third highest rank in a chapter, before chapter master/commander or chief librarian.
> 
> ...


cool you agree with me
....
indeed this would be knowledge preserved for the librarians and the chapter master not just a captain, indeed there are ten of them, fair chance one of them gets captured and tortured say every 100 years, as such providing them with extremely critical knowledge sounds .... logical ....


----------



## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

A space marine tortured for information?

Need to read more books about space marines.


----------



## jonileth (Feb 1, 2012)

I think the most logical assumption one could make regarding whether or not he is actually healing or not is to assume that he is not. Powers of faith being what they are, I don't see any real reason for pilgrims paying homage to him being the catalyst for his recovery. From what I can tell, Guilliman was not a psyker, so unlike the Emperor would not receive any great boon from having devotees worship at his 'grave'.

What I do wonder though, is whether or not the Primarchs, clones of the Emperor that they are, have some unnatural tolerances for things such as poison. Not knowing a great deal about his death other than the few things I've read in passing, I can't say for sure whether it was ever really stated that Primarchs were supernaturally stout in constitution. But it would seem to me that if they are genetically engineered, they would have been given some measure of advantage over normal humans.

So when you get right down to it, his healing could very well be a trick of the mind, something people see that spurs them to hope for some grand revival that will never actually come. People have been holding on to slivers of hope for generations on end, and I see no reason for them to stop now. But it will really and ultimately be up the GW as to whether we see him reappear alive at some later date or if he simply is as Uriel put it, a dead man on a throne.


----------



## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Not to mention that the poison was given by Fulgrim: Who's to say it's a natural poison and not something of the warp?


----------



## jonileth (Feb 1, 2012)

In the end, I don't think it really matters one way or the other. If it suits the needs of a story, someone will find a way to sidestep the technicalities and make something a reality even if it defies all logical thought and can only be explained as a 'miracle'. In the end, it is simply a story device given to us to add a bit of mystic and sow the seeds of possibilities within our minds as to what might happen. Often times, anticipating something that might be possible is more enticing than the actual event taking place. And if nothing else, it drives people to talk about it.


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

jonileth said:


> What I do wonder though, is whether or not the Primarchs, clones of the Emperor that they are, have some unnatural tolerances for things such as poison.


It wasn't any old poison, it was a poisoned blade wielded by a demonic Fulgrim. I think it's safe to say it would do for him, since a similar blade did for Horus. Kor Phaeron seemed to think he could turn Guilliman with his own blade in _Know No Fear_. 

So now we have a scenario where, if he is indeed healing, when he wakes he might just decide Abaddon has been making a shit of it for 10,000 years, and turn his theoretical into practical fighting _against _the Imperium.


----------



## jonileth (Feb 1, 2012)

Khorne's Fist said:


> It wasn't any old poison, it was a poisoned blade wielded by a demonic Fulgrim. I think it's safe to say it would do for him, since a similar blade did for Horus.


That's a fair point there, I'm not well versed in the Chaos angle of the genre. Much as I like seeing them get splattered all over the battlefield, it's just one thing I was never much interested in. But like I said before, I'm not well versed on some of the finer details so I'm sure that I would have gotten some of the details wrong. I do appreciate the clarification though.


----------



## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> It wasn't any old poison, it was a poisoned blade wielded by a demonic Fulgrim. I think it's safe to say it would do for him, since a similar blade did for Horus.



Not quite right. Its THE VERY SAME BLADE that killed Horus. Horus lived by being resurrected by the dark powers. The blade itself was designed in a way that the wielder spoke the name of his target and then the blade would always win and defeat its target. Quite a nasty weapon.

In short I think Guilliman is very much dead. Although I think that neither of the Alpha Legion Primarchs are alive either at this point.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I don't think Uriel is too special to the Chapter when it comes to information concerning the Primarch. I guess the argument is whether a captain is a reliable source when it comes to a chapter's secrets. 

I would say, rank does play a roll, however, though it does play a roll I think the major thing that lends hand in whether anyone including a captain would have that information is how long he has been in. 

We have the Chaplain Bureas... I think in _Angels of Darkness_ who was high in rank but was not let in about certain secrets that screwed him over in the end.

Another thing to think about is that captains come and go. The first Salamander novel showed what it takes for a captain to even prove himself to his own men. 

Uriel had broken the codex, I doubt he had built enough trust within the chapter's leadership to receive such information like Guilliman's life. In his current status what could he do with that important information?


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Guilliman healing simply because people believe that he's healing? I'm really sorry, but I don't buy that for even one second. It would be pretty stupid in my opinion if that was the case, as it would basically turn Humanity into a watered down version of the Orks.

Bob the Girlie Man is dead. I just hope GW don't go the Blood Angels route and have us end up with the Guillinator or Ultraman, or some random stupid shit special plot device character similar to that.


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Little stuff the whole "belief is reality" thing works with. Big stuff, no. If that were the case, then every Heretic and Xeno in existence would have been wiped out by the sheer amount of fervent zealotry that exists in just about every Imperial citizen. Eldar craftworlds would implode, Tombworlds would collapse into singularities, the Eye of Terror would hurl the Warp Gods into the nearest star and then all the daemons would vanish, so on. Everyone believing something to be true only has so much power. I don't think that power extends to resurrecting primarchs.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

He's frozen in his moment of death. Not a moment of wounding or dying. His moment of death. In that way the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Unless the Emperor awakens and heals his son then Gulliman will stay dead and the score will remain 2-0 Fulgrim.


----------



## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

Baltar said:


> A space marine tortured for information?
> 
> Need to read more books about space marines.


like blood reaver


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> He's frozen in his moment of death. Not a moment of wounding or dying. His moment of death. In that way the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Unless the Emperor awakens and heals his son then Gulliman will stay dead and the score will remain 2-0 Fulgrim.


Actually, it 0-0 or at most 1-0. Fulrgim did not kill Guilliman, the daemon did. The same could be argued for Ferrus, but it is iffy.


----------



## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

Guilliman is in moment of death and that stasis is what is keeping him from death. So in way his frozen in time. 

Horus was stab by the blade but he didn't die right away. He was dying but it took dark powers to heal him. 

Who's to say that there are warp powers or something that can heal Guilliman? I don't think he is dead but in brink of death. And it's possible that he can be saved if there is some sort of cure for that stab in his neck.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Uriel Ventris is a fairly credible person when it comes to that sort of thing. When he delivers said opinion to us (his audience), I doubt it comes courtesy of a "I just figured it's that way" thought process. It strikes me as contrary to a member of a Chapter for whom all things central to their origins are treated with religious veneration. I assume his opinion comes via Chapter indoctrination. As in, the Ultramarines teach their battle-brethren that Guilliman is dead.


From the passage this certainly seems to be the case. It's not like an Ultramarines Captain would think one thing, whilst the Chapter leadership know a different truth. Uriel's comment suggests that that is the stance held by the entire Ultramarine's Chapter. 



ckcrawford said:


> I guess the argument is whether a captain is a reliable source when it comes to a chapter's secrets.


If Guilliman was alive (or had a chance of healing) the Ultramarines would not hide it from the rest of their Chapter or indeed the wider Imperium - this isn't the Dark Angels. It wouldnt be a secret.



Iron Angel said:


> Little stuff the whole "belief is reality" thing works with. Big stuff, no. If that were the case, then every Heretic and Xeno in existence would have been wiped out by the sheer amount of fervent zealotry that exists in just about every Imperial citizen. Eldar craftworlds would implode, Tombworlds would collapse into singularities, the Eye of Terror would hurl the Warp Gods into the nearest star and then all the daemons would vanish, so on. Everyone believing something to be true only has so much power. I don't think that power extends to resurrecting primarchs.


The problem with your evidence is that Imperial citizens don't truly believe that xenos don't exist, and even though most do not have any information on Chaos - they don't actively believe that it doesn't exist either. So its an entirely different kettle of fish.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The codex outright says he is dead on more than one occasion. I don't have it to hand and for now can't be bothered to find other threads here where I have quoted the relevant passages. But it describes him as dead, having died and says the body in the stasis field is a corpse.


----------



## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

codex is final


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Angel of Blood likes everyone to be dead


----------



## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Maybe he is Abnett in disguise.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Here's the Codex quote in question:



> _Within this edifice is the great marble throne of Roboute Guilliman, and upon that throne sits a regal corpse. Though the best part of ten thousand years have passed since his death, the Primarch's body is perfectly preserved. Even his death wounds are visible upon his throat. His mortal remains are preserved from the ravages of time by means of a stasis field that isolates the Primarch from the time-stream. Everything encompassed by the field is trapped in time and can neither change nor decay
> 
> There are some, however, who claim the Primarch's wounds do change. They say that Guilliman's body is slowly recovering and that his wounds show mysterious signs of healing. Others deny the phenomena, and point out the sheer impossibility of change within the stasis field. Yet enough believe the stories to come and witness for themselves the miracle of the Primarch._


It is virtually the same stance adopted by Uriel Ventris in "Nightbringer".


----------



## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Is it acceptable to refer to Uriel Ventris is 'Posterboy' from now on?


----------



## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Phoebus said:


> Here's the Codex quote in question:
> 
> 
> 
> It is virtually the same stance adopted by Uriel Ventris in "Nightbringer".


It's proven he's dead, until Matt Ward says otherwise.


----------



## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

And with strange aeons even death may die


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> If Guilliman was alive (or had a chance of healing) the Ultramarines would not hide it from the rest of their Chapter or indeed the wider Imperium - this isn't the Dark Angels. It wouldnt be a secret.


Why would they tell the Imperium Guilliman is alive? If there was any chance of Guilliman surviving, that would create many problems if he ever resurrected. The current Imperium is very messed up in terms of what they believe and pretty much refusing to make itself better (basically calling it heretical). _Atlas Inferno_ shows how unwilling and stupid the Inquisition is being in refusing to find anyway to revive the Emperor. So why would they be optimistic about Guilliman reviving? With many Imperial Crazies in power, the Imperium would need to cleanse itself. Doubt many of those Imperial Crazies would just bow to Guilliman. 

Any hope of change and prosperity in the Imperium would depend on Guilliman's life. If Guilliman is alive it is indeed too powerful a secret to share to the rest of the Imperium or the chapter. You can't compare that to the Dark Angels. The Dark Angels are just a chapter and even if the Primarch Lion El Johnson were alive he couldn't dream to muster enough people to change the Imperium to the extent Guilliman can. 

You also have to think about how much unnecessary attention Ultramar would be receiving from its enemies (mostly chaos). Honsou alone created devastation on one world and completely destroyed another. And thats without that knowledge. 

If the Chaos gods found out about Guilliman's life and any hope of the Imperium becoming powerful again, then they would stop that from happening. Especially since there are certain agents in the Imperium who have the secrets of the Imperial Webway. The only thing from preventing them from using it, is its current fanaticism.


----------



## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Nobody would need optimisim. He would be instantly the most senior member in the entire imperium. Optimism not required; only obedience.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Baltar said:


> Nobody would need optimisim. He would be instantly the most senior member in the entire imperium. Optimism not required; only obedience.


You have inquisitors and other crazies that have spent their whole lives believing the Emperor is a god and that everything should be done a certain way. Then comes a guy you only read about in a book who is supposidly been dead for a long time and he tells you everything you've done is wrong. Doubt they'd be very obedient, especially if they have power to push their authority.


----------



## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

I imagine that a civil war would ensue to a certain extent, but it hardly matters. Space marines win in all events, imo.


----------



## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Baltar said:


> Nobody would need optimisim. He would be instantly the most senior member in the entire imperium. Optimism not required; only obedience.


I don't think you're understanding this, In the 41 millennium the emperor is worshiped as a god. 

He never said he was a god, he was trying to destroy all religion. If someone namely Guilliman awoke who is loyal to his father he would continue what he started.

Think about this. The ultramarines would be loyal to their primarch, the other legions might be willing to follow guilliman but what about the inquistion? or the current imperial government. Are they going to be willing to change?

Or the sisters of battle? Will they?

What we are going to have is a civil war that's worse than the horus heresy.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Thoughts and emotions power the chaos gods, so there's obviously some sort of connection between worship etc, I don't see why that couldn't affect a Primarch.


----------



## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> I don't think you're understanding this, In the 41 millennium the emperor is worshiped as a god.
> 
> He never said he was a god, he was trying to destroy all religion. If someone namely Guilliman awoke who is loyal to his father he would continue what he started.
> 
> ...


Well for one thing, who says Guilliman would denounce the Emperor's godhood? I mean yes he is true to the Emperor's word, but he is also of tactical mind. 

He should see, should being the important word, that he can win this fight and not have men of the imperium go up in arms against themselves, but he needs to play the long game, this belief in the Emperor has been long ingrained and it would take perhaps four times that period of time to truly eradicate it from all of humanity, the ultramarines would do it near instantly along with all child chapters... But the space wolves? I find it hard to believe they would throw off their religion readily. Hell even when the Emperor was banging around they went on about Mother Fenris. 

My point is, if even his most loyal and greatest surviving sons say the Emperor is a god, Guilliman might see the sense, perhaps in terms of preservation of the imperium, in letting this one go for a little while. If he does not then he is arrogant and a fool and will cause the downfall of the imperium. 

Now I have called Guilliman a great many things, but never a fool. 

Besides, it's not like he is going to come back any time soon so I am not sure we have to worry.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

cegorach said:


> Well for one thing, who says Guilliman would denounce the Emperor's godhood? I mean yes he is true to the Emperor's word, but he is also of tactical mind.
> 
> He should see, should being the important word, that he can win this fight and not have men of the imperium go up in arms against themselves, but he needs to play the long game, this belief in the Emperor has been long ingrained and it would take perhaps four times that period of time to truly eradicate it from all of humanity, the ultramarines would do it near instantly along with all child chapters... But the space wolves? I find it hard to believe they would throw off their religion readily. Hell even when the Emperor was banging around they went on about Mother Fenris.
> 
> ...


But you're avoiding his past actions. They contradict what you're saying. Look at how Lorgar made Guilliman feel? I would say that after the Battle of Calth, Guilliman has personal feelings against anyone who worships the Emperor. 

You say Guilliman isn't willing to push for a civil war? How about when he forced Dorn, and Russ to dismantle their legions into chapters compromising of 1000 astartes? Not to mention, we don't know what side the Lion would have been on, but given his ambition, I don't think he would have favored the codex. Guilliman was about to war with every legion except for the Raven Guard that basically ended up as a chapter anyway. (Not exactly sure about Khan)

My point, is that if the Guilliman were alive and sometime in the future of the 40k universe, he did wake up, he isn't going to waste his time playing around with all the races the Imperium needs to get rid of. He also needs to worry about getting the tools that the current Imperium is too afraid to use.


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Having read through all the posts to date some words printed here resonated with me....

1. Yes it is GW world and in the end they will do what they like and when they like.

2. It appears that they placed him in the stasis field at the moment of his death. That being said..all the tissue is viable and could be brought back. Same as a person dieing and getting CPR. Granted it would be much more difficult. I think finding a way for him to survive in a dreadnaught or as the crone(pricip in a titian) did in Helsreach could and should have been an option.

3. The Imperium and inquisition would be unhappy by the return if he failed to tow the party line.

4. He would be honor bound to try and re-start the great crusade and stop the imperial religion. This would cause civil war and only the return of more primarchs could finish this quickly.

5. If he was being healed by the combined "belief" of the masses...Chaos Gods and maybe Magnus would likely be aware of this. 


Doc


----------



## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Reaper45 said:


> I don't think you're understanding this, In the 41 millennium the emperor is worshiped as a god.
> 
> He never said he was a god, he was trying to destroy all religion. If someone namely Guilliman awoke who is loyal to his father he would continue what he started.
> 
> ...


The space marines literally worship their primarchs at shrines. If a primarch returned, they would regard them much more favourably than they would any other authority in the imperium. Space Marines pretty much already consider other authorities with disdain.

Think about it. All legions essentially 'leaderless' for centuries. And then a primarch wakes up.

No. Fucking. Question. About who they are going to side with.

The primarch pretty much reverred as a space marine god, or a beaurocratic inquisition. No contest.


----------



## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Baltar said:


> The space marines literally worship their primarchs at shrines. If a primarch returned, they would regard them much more favourably than they would any other authority in the imperium. Space Marines pretty much already consider other authorities with disdain.
> 
> Think about it. All legions essentially 'leaderless' for centuries. And then a primarch wakes up.
> 
> ...


Honestly it's no contest for the space marines. 

The sisters of battle on the other hand, are a different story. Their entire purpose is killing heretics and psykers. Something tells me they wouldn't take kindly to even a primarch denouncing the emperor as a god.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Really depends on what Primarch tbh I think there's enough Ultramarine foundings though to cause a serious problem if Guilliman started walking and talking.


----------



## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

I reckon it would come down to blatant civil war. He would wake up, see technology being treated as magic, see scientific research being treated as heresy, and see the Emperor (and himself) being treated as a God, and then he would fucking flip. Big time.

The Ecclesiarchy wouldn't stand for it, although the Sisters of Battle aren't exactly a major threat. They are relatively few in number.

Yeah, it'd cause a schism. On one side, those who realise what's happened and accept the word of Guilliman. On the other side, those who would refuse to accept it and who would see it as heresy.

Heresy MKII


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

He would have to take over the Imperium and destroy the Ecclesiarchy. Then he would have to fill that vacuum with Marines and Imperial governors. 

Then fear of this battle station will keep the systems in line...oh...wait...wrong genre. LOL!!


Doc


----------



## Hired Goon (Sep 16, 2009)

I think he's dead. If he magically comes back to life, maybe Fulgrim will take it as motivation to get off his ass and kill him again.


----------



## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

Hired Goon said:


> I think he's dead. If he magically comes back to life, maybe Fulgrim will take it as motivation to get off his ass and kill him again.


Considering that Fulgrim died long before Fulgrim killed him makes it hard for him to kill him again, eh?


----------



## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Diatribe1974 said:


> Considering that Fulgrim died long before Fulgrim killed him makes it hard for him to kill him again, eh?


He's not actually dead. The deamon pushed his consciousness into the deepest recesses of his mind when Fulgrim let the damn thing take hold of his body. 

On page 490 of Fulgrim, close to the bottom of the page is where I got it.

"His consciousness was crushed into the dark, unused corners of his mind, forever to be a mute witness to the havoc wrought by his body's new master."


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Lorgar threatens the daemon to make sure Fulgrim returns to the surface, whether that happens or not I don't know.


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Lorgar threatens the daemon to make sure Fulgrim returns to the surface, whether that happens or not I don't know.


Even if he came to the surface what would he do? He realized with the death of Manus what he had allowed to happen. If he came back he would want to be a loyalist likely but hasn't his body ascended into Deamon-hood? Plus he would likely need help from one of his Brothers to gain control again....Only one who could help or would possibly would be Magnus unless the emperor heard his cry.


Doc


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Lorgar threatens the daemon to make sure Fulgrim returns to the surface, whether that happens or not I don't know.


Some of the III Legion also learned of their Primarch's demise and attempted to exorcise the daemon during the Heresy.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

docgeo said:


> Even if he came to the surface what would he do? He realized with the death of Manus what he had allowed to happen. If he came back he would want to be a loyalist likely but hasn't his body ascended into Deamon-hood? Plus he would likely need help from one of his Brothers to gain control again....Only one who could help or would possibly would be Magnus unless the emperor heard his cry.
> 
> 
> Doc


Well Lorgar also seems to have the power to make it happen, at least that's the impression he gave when he confronted the daemon inside of Fulgrim.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Some of the III Legion also learned of their Primarch's demise and attempted to exorcise the daemon during the Heresy.


Interesting, where can I read about that? Also I seem to remember lucius fighting alongside Daemon Fulgrim and him taking on a titan but I can't remember where I saw it.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

If Fulfrim comes back all that awaits him is death. Even if you excuse his murder of to roboute, which the ultrasmurfs would NEVER agree to, he actually killed ferrus. He fought and murdered him. Yeah he was being manipulated but who the hell would care even if he could prove it? He's done I think he hasn't tried to come back because what's the point? Take back his legion? Save the imperium? Get forgiveness from his dad? He has nothing to come back to, it was and always will be pointless to take back control. He knows deep down his weakness has earned him this hell.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> From the passage this certainly seems to be the case. It's not like an Ultramarines Captain would think one thing, whilst the Chapter leadership know a different truth. Uriel's comment suggests that that is the stance held by the entire Ultramarine's Chapter.


Is the stance of the chapter necessarily correct? 



mob16151 said:


> And with strange aeons even death may die


Ha, what an appropriate quote



docgeo said:


> 2. It appears that they placed him in the stasis field at the moment of his death. That being said..all the tissue is viable and could be brought back. Same as a person dieing and getting CPR. Granted it would be much more difficult.


Yes, even if he were dead (which seems to be debatable), his resurrection wouldn't be as ridiculous as the resurrection of a primarch whose body has been badly damaged/obliterated.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Interesting, where can I read about that?


It will appear in _The Reflection Cracked_.



MontytheMighty said:


> Is the stance of the chapter necessarily correct?


No, but I would take their stance as more authoritative than the stance of crazed zealot-pilgrims who would believe anything if a demagogue shouted it at them enough.


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> Yes, even if he were dead (which seems to be debatable), his resurrection wouldn't be as ridiculous as the resurrection of a primarch whose body has been badly damaged/obliterated.


Funny thing is...if genetic science and development is advance enough to make them and space marines then you would think cloning would be easy.

Doc


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

docgeo said:


> Funny thing is...if genetic science and development is advance enough to make them and space marines then you would think cloning would be easy.
> 
> Doc


Cloning? yes. Cloning a Primarch? No.


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

but why not?? If the creation changed the DNA then it would be likely that Dorn's hand or Sangunius's blood could be used to clone them...though they would be a different personality.


Doc


----------



## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

A primarch is not a purely biological being like a human or a space marine.

They are created using the essence of the warp.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

No has mentioned this before, but the term "dead" is a bit flexible. Heart rate and respiration may cease and be considered dead. 

Anyone with any real knowledge of how the Primarchs work would have been gone or incapacitated by that time (namely the Emperor and sorta Corax). Perhaps Guilli seemed to have died but his physique was about to kick start (think of it as an inbuilt defibrillator of sorts), but his men panicked and stuck him in stasis before the fail-safe--mundane or warp-powered-- worked.

I have absolutely no support for this idea (and personally I'm in the mind that he couldn't heal while in stasis), but just wanted to mention that "death" isn't necessarily final--even without god-like powers or "magic" getting involved.


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Cloning's a banned science in the Imperium. 

Besides even it it where possible to clone a primarch (doubtful given it took an intellect on the level of the Emperor's to create them and the use of the warp in their creation) i don't imagine it being done for the same reasons people are opposed to it know. It's considered morally or religiously wrong. Can you imagine the Blood Angels or Ultramarines giving over their gene-fathers to the Mechancius for them to clone? Not in the Imperiums climate of mistrust and superstition.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

hailene said:


> No has mentioned this before, but the term "dead" is a bit flexible. Heart rate and respiration may cease and be considered dead.


Yes, real people have literally "come back from the dead" in medical science 
Clinically dead people have been revived 



> Perhaps Guilli seemed to have died but his physique was about to kick start (think of it as an inbuilt defibrillator of sorts), but his men panicked and stuck him in stasis before the fail-safe--mundane or warp-powered-- worked


It's not that implausible. SM apothecaries were pretty clueless about their primarchs' physiologies. Just look at Horus' apothecaries. 

It's possible that Guilliman was healing in a catatonic state, but his men placed him in stasis because they panicked and didn't want to take the risk. That would be ironic indeed...


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Rems said:


> Cloning's a banned science in the Imperium.
> 
> Besides even it it where possible to clone a primarch (doubtful given it took an intellect on the level of the Emperor's to create them and the use of the warp in their creation) i don't imagine it being done for the same reasons people are opposed to it know. It's considered morally or religiously wrong. Can you imagine the Blood Angels or Ultramarines giving over their gene-fathers to the Mechancius for them to clone? Not in the Imperiums climate of mistrust and superstition.


I don't think cloning is illegal in the Imperium. It's late and I can't look through too many sources but...

In the Gaunt's Ghost series, a junior commissar is told to rally some troops. He hasn't actually fought in a battle, so he didn't feel up to the task. Gaunt told him to rally them any way possible: a song, a dance, tell them that the junior commissar was his cloned son (the men in question had great respect for Gaunt). If cloning was ban, that wouldn't be a very good morale booster, would it?

In the Eisenhorn trilogy, Eisenhorn creates a synthetic body to house a Daemon. Clearly the body is alive. While it's not impossible to scramble up the dna every time they make a new body, but it seems rather unlikely they'd go to the bother.

I'm pretty sure a lot of servitors are vat grown. I'd imagine that they'd create ideal templates for the more common jobs--increased propensity for muscle development for loader servitors, increased hand-eye coordination for close combat servitors, ect. 

Then there's the whole Afriel Strain project. It took the DNA of great Imperial Heroes and cloned them to make super soldiers. Sorta worked.

I'm sure there are plenty more examples out there. If no one adds more I'll dig for some tomorrow evening.


----------



## zuul88 (Feb 13, 2012)

Baltar said:


> A space marine tortured for information?
> 
> Need to read more books about space marines.



I suggest you start with the opening chapter of The Night Lords book or anything to do with how the Dark Angels "redeem" the Fallen. Maybe what the corpsemaster of the Red Corsairs does? Really just cause they're big & tough doesn't mean shit to someone with patience and a box cutter, sure they last longer but the result is always the same. People will tell you whatever you want to hear to be granted the sweet kiss of death, period.

Nathan


----------



## zuul88 (Feb 13, 2012)

Rems said:


> Cloning's a banned science in the Imperium.
> 
> Besides even it it where possible to clone a primarch (doubtful given it took an intellect on the level of the Emperor's to create them and the use of the warp in their creation) i don't imagine it being done for the same reasons people are opposed to it know. It's considered morally or religiously wrong. Can you imagine the Blood Angels or Ultramarines giving over their gene-fathers to the Mechancius for them to clone? Not in the Imperiums climate of mistrust and superstition.


Fabius Bile cloned Horus!!! Sparked a big issue between the Black Legion & the Emperor's Children. In fact destroying it was the starting point for Addanon on getting the Black Legion functional again.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

zuul88 said:


> Fabius Bile cloned Horus!!! Sparked a big issue between the Black Legion & the Emperor's Children. In fact destroying it was the starting point for Addanon on getting the Black Legion functional again.


But there is nothing to suggest that they were successful clones, certainly no way near as powerful or potent as the original Primarch - they were all killed off by Abaddon.

Cloning itself is something that isn't too difficult. But cloning a Primarch would be near-impossible unless enacted by someone of the Emperor's genetic and psychic talents - or something equivalent, and even then it may still be near-impossible.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

The only thing gulliman was about to kick was the bucket.Th blades used were poisoned if I remember correctly and you saw how well Horus handled warp poison. He's not healing at all. His only hope is the Emp coming back or something of that magnitude. Failing that they might as well entomb him in a cool way like sanguinius. Maybe the lord of shadows killed gulliman as a favor to lorgar for allowing him to exist in this body. Who know?


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

How about taking his brain and placing it in control of a dreadnaught?? Or cloning a new body and transplanting the brain...remember don't think in our tech level.

Doc


----------



## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

docgeo said:


> How about taking his brain and placing it in control of a dreadnaught?? Or cloning a new body and transplanting the brain...remember don't think in our tech level.
> 
> Doc


Primarch-Dreadnaught... well, nah, his strength would be limited by the limitations of the machine, though obviously his mind would be greater than any living Dreadnaught. It would be like Captain Thule from Dawn of War II; nearly slain and infected by poison, saved at the last minute by Gordian (and perhaps by a stasis field in Guilliman's case), then returned as a mighty tomb-machine. I don't think the clone would work, however, as others have said. Cloning a Primarch is near-impossible. If you're suggesting placing his brain in a regular body, or somehow the body of a Marine, that would probably fail as well. If it somehow succeeds, then his brain wouldn't be able to adapt to the new, weaker body. He'd probably try to do something very easy for his Primarch body, but end up killing himself or breaking something important. When you're used to being a demi-god, it's hard to change.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

docgeo said:


> How about taking his brain and placing it in control of a dreadnaught?? Or cloning a new body and transplanting the brain...remember don't think in our tech level.


If I had to go that route, I'd put him in a super-customised/souped-up Warhound or Reaver Titan


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> If I had to go that route, I'd put him in a super-customised/souped-up Warhound or Reaver Titan


agreed...that was going to be my next suggestion. Look at the "crone" pricip in the Battle of Helreach. She was maintained in a vat of amniotic like fluid within her Titan. 



Doc


----------



## gridge (Feb 11, 2012)

This is one of those things that will be debated to death based on opinion rather than anything concrete in the fluff. The words of Uriel, even though he is the main character, can't be taken as an absolute. It is merely his belief (and really there is nothing to say that someone else won't come along and write something directly contrary). Fluff in 40K is a bit fluid after all. I for one prefer to think of it as a possibility that he is miraculously healing. This is primarily because I would like the Imperium to have a few Primarchs of its own still in the picture.


----------



## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

if this Uriel Ventris really said that Robute is nothing more than a corpse on a throne I would get him and whoever he said that to and sanction them for being Heretics, Robute and the God-Emperor are two of the whole list of main reasons why Uriel is even alive today and not swallowed by Chaos, you never speak ill of the man whos Gene-seed allows you to live and breath as a Soldier of the Imperium's finest, let alone the Man who made it all possible in the first place... HERESY I SAY.

Zeal for the Emperor! (out of all Marines I'm a Black Templar player, and they call us Heretics, bloody Ultramarines)


----------



## inqusitor magneto (Jan 23, 2012)

The subject of the matter is if he is healing or not. in a stasis field more then likely slowing down of time not time halted, he could be healing. His throat was sliced before fulgrim sliced it again. He did resisted the chaos warp truth before. Perhaps this knife was more potent. why slice when fulgrim could have choped off his head. Fulgrim did it to another primarch. Fulgrim could want another sacrifice for his god. Another primarch turned. 

The other question might be why the stasis chamber. Did someone of the ultramarines come to a theoretical that he could be turned. To make assuptions of a primarch the biology of one must be understood. Each in itself is more then trans human. They all have potent healing powers as well as trans human healing abilities. Know no fear gives indepth healing attributes of space marines and that even more of guilliman.

If he was dead the body would age in a rapid form even in stasis. If one is dead the body would decay due to attribute of no metabolism being performed. You would see decay such as the emperor, who is also in a somewhat stasis field as well. It has been 10k years so decay would come about set in. you would see it in the face. It is all theoretical indeed. We will all have to see how this great story comes to a fold in 6th and 7th edition.


----------



## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Hopefully he will come back to life and be like:

"Oh, man. I had the worst nightmare. I dreamt that I made the most stupid mistake it is possible to make, and I decided that a collective of our best soldiers - space marines - may only number one thousand. I dreamt that the entire imperium now worships the Emperor as a deity, and that science and technology are seen as arcane...... Wait... What the... Oh, fuck."


----------



## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

Chompy Bits said:


> Guilliman healing simply because people believe that he's healing? I'm really sorry, but I don't buy that for even one second. It would be pretty stupid in my opinion if that was the case, as it would basically turn Humanity into a watered down version of the Orks.
> 
> Bob the Girlie Man is dead. I just hope GW don't go the Blood Angels route and have us end up with the Guillinator or Ultraman, or some random stupid shit special plot device character similar to that.



Sisters of Battle have miricles because they believe. Chaos wouldnt even be a threat if humans didnt exist. Human emotions are very powerful in 40k.


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

JelloSea said:


> Sisters of Battle have miricles because they believe. Chaos wouldnt even be a threat if humans didnt exist. Human emotions are very powerful in 40k.


Beliefs are not emotions. Or a few billion guardsman reading and believing the _Uplifting Primer_ would have ended the xenos threat on its own. 

And we really don't have solid proof as to how exactly Sisters of Battle manage to accomplish their 'miracles'. Maybe the crusty old semi-corpse sitting on the golden throne *is* really listening.


----------



## Warped Bitz (Mar 8, 2012)

JelloSea said:


> Sisters of Battle have miricles because they believe. Chaos wouldnt even be a threat if humans didnt exist. Human emotions are very powerful in 40k.


Hence why the secretive council (can't remember the name, from Legion) wanted Horus to succeed, wipe out humanity and cripple the gods! 

As a previous Ultramarines collector id like to believe he is healing, but it would throw the entire universe of balance if he did....

Adam


----------



## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

Warped Bitz said:


> Hence why the secretive council (can't remember the name, from Legion) wanted Horus to succeed, wipe out humanity and cripple the gods!
> 
> As a previous Ultramarines collector id like to believe he is healing, but it would throw the entire universe of balance if he did....
> 
> Adam



Like it would throw off the ballence if the emperor got up, if Chaos took Terra, if the nid swarm came in full, if the primarchs returned, if the eldar created their new god, if all the necrons woke up, etc. It could very well be happening but it will never move forward.


----------



## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Break it down logicially.

The codex says that he was dead when he was put in to stasis. This is a fact.

The codex says that nothing in the stasis field can change. This is a factual account of the operation of the stasis field.

Some people believe that he is healing. This is opinion.

Uriel Ventris believes that he is dead. Anyone who suggests that an in world characters understanding of events is fact it talking nonsense. Despite how accurate Ventris' account is, it is still opinion. 

There is a big gap in my knowledge here regarding living saints and the power of faith. Depending on how factual the information is in the Witch hunter codex is, a case can be made for faith based healing within the stasis field. 

The situation is far from conclusive.

edit: and it's entirely inconsequential (as JelloSea says) because the timeline does not move.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Living Saints are different. Per Atlas Infernal, they are individuals who literally cannot die. Despite being rent apart, the Saint in said book essentially reknit her form and rose to life again. 

How exactly is a mystery, but it seems plausible that a facet of the Emperor's power is at play, or else they are some form of latent mutation in a similar manner to perpetuals. Needless to say, there is nothing to apply either of these to Guilleman.


----------



## The Meddler (Sep 25, 2010)

Lux said:


> Agreed, I take the comment from Uriel as nothing more than his thoughts on the subject, he has no way of knowing.
> 
> Its the same as taking a random comment of the Word Bearers that the Ultramarines numbers were due to absorbing the two sanctioned legions.


I agree with you on the first point, if Guilliman is healing and the Ultramarines know, then only the Chapter Master and the Chief Librarian (maybe Chapter Masters of some successors) would know.

However, what do you mean random comment? That was a private conversation between two _primarchs, _one of whom was Magnus, famed for knowing more than anyone apart from a few people (emperor, eldrad). Doesn't seem that random.


----------



## Designation P-90 (Feb 24, 2012)

I thought Rowboat Jellyman represented the Imperium. He is perpetually stuck in time and will die if the stasis field is shut down. The Imperium is perpetually stuck in time (tech wise and religion wise) and will die if either of those things change.


----------



## Sem'ael Elear (Nov 6, 2011)

We don't need big blue, we've got Johnson, one of the greatest (if not the greatest) tactical minds (though he had some issues) in the galaxy. I find it funny that he is the only primarch that we know is alive for the "good guys"

Though it would be interesting if Gulliman was healing I don't see it happening, but you never know with GW. If Necrons and Blood Angels can get along maybe Gulliman can get up and walk, anything can happen


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

The Meddler said:


> I agree with you on the first point, if Guilliman is healing and the Ultramarines know, then only the Chapter Master and the Chief Librarian (maybe Chapter Masters of some successors) would know.


Why?



The Meddler said:


> However, what do you mean random comment? That was a private conversation between two _primarchs, _one of whom was Magnus, famed for knowing more than anyone apart from a few people (emperor, eldrad). Doesn't seem that random.


No, it was a conversation between Argel Tal and Xaphen (IIRC).


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

This entire thread is based off of speculation and not a shred of cannon fluff from ANY scifi universe. What setting,game,or genre has ever had the tech for a stasis feild where it's done anything but put someone in suspended animation? The codex and his own sons say that he's dead, but here come the trollers to pretty much say that despite BL putting it out that the man died at the hands of his possessed brother that's not enough. If he's healing then so is Sanguinius. Molten silver has the same healing properties as a stasis feild which are in a word none.


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Okay I think this wont be solved here....but here is what we think we know:

1. The G man was placed in Stasis at the moment of Death.

2. Stasis by definition wouldn't allow change.

Everything else is speculation...but I support the idea that he could be revived given the right circumstances because even with today's tech we can bring back newly dead.

Doc


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Stasis fields are not totally frozen and things do pass in and out of them, namely psychic powers have been shown to pass out of them. So they are not totally immutable. 

This is a universe where the Emperor beat down the Void Dragon on ancient Terra (Al la George and Dragon) and flew him to Mars to imprison him. Where the Eldar partied so hard they sucked 99% of their population out of reality. Where you can con primitive tribes into smelting enough iron to build a Starship. Entire Planets are turned over to a single function, be that farming or a graveyard. Someone healing in a Stasis Field is not the least probable event in 40K. 

If the Eldar can party so hard they break reality then why can't Humans pray so hard they heal a single guy a little bit.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Theres a vast difference between healing someone and resurrecting them.


----------



## Creator of Chaos (Feb 8, 2012)

In real life under the right circumstances people have been literally able to come back from Death or at-least survive ridiculus circumsrtances for awhile. Take rasputin for example. They beat him, poisened, Suffocated him and even shot him and each time even when they were sure he was dead, he'd come back to life everytime. They finally killed him when they shot him and droped him in a frozen lack and guess what it was not the bullet or Drowning that killed him. the autopsy revealed It was hypothermia occuring over a few hours.... 

Another case from russia. A man was droped into a lake and left to drown, 17 hours later he was pulled from the lake and revived without brain damage. The cold water acting like a stasis tube and preserving him in the moment of death. There are other freak case's like this happening in reality and while it is exceptionally rare. It can happen. Whose to say that Gullimen is not healing in the stasis tube. He was intered into it during the moment of death so his brain at-least is still technically alive (It takes 5 minutes under normal circumstance for the brain cells to begin suffocating and dieing after death and up to 20 to finish the Job. longer in cold, dry conditions and as stasis slows time coppeled with the fact he's a primach its highly likely) and therefor there is chance he is self healing either through belief of the people or sheer power of will. He is a primach after all. And if he is healing we may see him again in the future. 

My question is tho would it be safer to leave him in stasis and see if the healing continues or risk removing him from it to see if the self healing speeds up or weather he fully karks it? Only if it is actually happening tho


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Every example anyone's given has been completely irrelevant to the subject matter. Hey maybe if the Iron Hands pray hard enough they can grow back Ferrus head? Or maybe if the Iron Fist Jersey shore fist pump enough Dorn will not only reanimate from a skeleton but he'll also have his hand reattached. The truth is is this seems like a "Gulliman's not really dead thread." Sadly that's not the case. Turn on the stasis feild or off and it won't matter. Being frozen in the moment of death and being dead are literally no different at all except the passage of time. Alpharius may be alive. Russ, Khan, Vulkan, and Corax as well.This thought about Gulliman is ridiculous.

No one has presented one iota of fluff where this has ever happened. Please tell me when a murdered Primarch has come back? Tell me where in any franchise you've seen psychic powers affect a cadaver in a stasis feild? Is there any prophetic fluff like with the Lion,Russ,Vulkan,or the Khan that says Gulliman is expected to come back? No, because you've all made this up. There's no after death, afterlife, or even a resurection story around Roboute Gulliman. He's dead. His sons know it. The Imperium (the sane ones) know it, The Chaos Gods know it, Fulgrim and the Lord of Shadows damn sure know it, and most importantly BL and GW have stated and have not changed it.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Theres a vast difference between healing someone and resurrecting them.


Dead is a very flexible term. I'm sure at least dozens, if not hundreds, of clinically dead people come back to life every day on our little mud ball.



Deadeye776 said:


> No one has presented one iota of fluff where this has ever happened. Please tell me when a murdered Primarch has come back? Tell me where in any franchise you've seen psychic powers affect a cadaver in a stasis feild? Is there any prophetic fluff like with the Lion,Russ,Vulkan,or the Khan that says Gulliman is expected to come back? No, because you've all made this up. There's no after death, afterlife, or even a resurection story around Roboute Gulliman. He's dead. His sons know it. The Imperium (the sane ones) know it, The Chaos Gods know it, Fulgrim and the Lord of Shadows damn sure know it, and most importantly BL and GW have stated and have not changed it.


You're on very shaky ground. Because it's never happened means it _can't_ happen?

When has the Emperor gotten off the Throne after his interment?

When has a lost Primarch returned?

When has Chaos ever completely overrun the Imperium of Man?

Never? Not once? 

I've never died either. I don't expect to be around in another 200 years, though.


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> Every example anyone's given has been completely irrelevant to the subject matter. Hey maybe if the Iron Hands pray hard enough they can grow back Ferrus head? Or maybe if the Iron Fist Jersey shore fist pump enough Dorn will not only reanimate from a skeleton but he'll also have his hand reattached. The truth is is this seems like a "Gulliman's not really dead thread." Sadly that's not the case. Turn on the stasis feild or off and it won't matter. Being frozen in the moment of death and being dead are literally no different at all except the passage of time. Alpharius may be alive. Russ, Khan, Vulkan, and Corax as well.This thought about Gulliman is ridiculous.
> 
> No one has presented one iota of fluff where this has ever happened. Please tell me when a murdered Primarch has come back? Tell me where in any franchise you've seen psychic powers affect a cadaver in a stasis feild? Is there any prophetic fluff like with the Lion,Russ,Vulkan,or the Khan that says Gulliman is expected to come back? No, because you've all made this up. There's no after death, afterlife, or even a resurection story around Roboute Gulliman. He's dead. His sons know it. The Imperium (the sane ones) know it, The Chaos Gods know it, Fulgrim and the Lord of Shadows damn sure know it, and most importantly BL and GW have stated and have not changed it.


The Emperor powers the Astronomicion out of a Stasis field, so psychic energy is able to flow between stasis and the real world. You seem to be trying to use a very flimsy anthropic-esque principle that it's never happened thus it cannot happen which is clearly bollocks when you have a sample size of 20. If there was more than one Primarch interred in Stasis on the moment of their death then you may have a point, but there isn't so you don't. It's like reading Prospro Burns and determining that no Primarchs can fly, it's faulty reasoning.


----------



## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> The Emperor powers the Astronomicion out of a Stasis field, so psychic energy is able to flow between stasis and the real world.


There are a couple of problems with comparing Guilliman and the Emperor. 1) The galaxy has likely never seen a being to rival the psykic power of the Emperor.
2) The Emperor is projecting (or guiding) out of the field. Any effect on Guilliman would be coming in from the outside. Just because psykic energy can pass outwards doesn't necessarily mean it can come in.
3) The Astronomicion is a purely warp-based phenomena. Guilliman healing however requires real-space involvement. I have no problem with the idea that the warp can be effected from a stasis-field because the warp doesn't really follow the rules of time anyway. This is not true of real-space.



Creator of Chaos said:


> In real life under the right circumstances people have been literally able to come back from Death or at-least survive ridiculus circumsrtances for awhile.


Unfortunately this isn't the same. It's quite easy for people to think they've killed someone and be wrong. You could think you shot someone in the heart but actually put it through their shoulder and leave them pretty much fine. This person has just 'miraculously' survived a near-death experience, that was in actual fact not that near-death nor particularly miraculous. On the other hand we have Guilliman. His throat was slit (a wound that would generally be mortal, but doesn't appear to be on Primarchs) with a poisoned weapon (again something a Primarch could easily survive). However we know that everyone, every single person (medical experts all) who looked at him new he was dying and that their was nothing they could do for him. We know that his was literally moments away from dying. This is a fact, it is not speculation or guesses by witnesses, it is canonical fact.



Aramoro said:


> If the Eldar can party so hard they break reality then why can't Humans pray so hard they heal a single guy a little bit.


Because the Eldar at the time were a galaxy ruling empire completely dedicated to the pursuit of what would become Slaanesh, where as most humans don't believe Guilliman is healing. The Eldar are also vastly more psykically powerful that humans. And finally excess is an emotion, and emotions resonate in the warp, the idea of Guilliman healing is a thought, and thoughts have limited power in the warp. The warp is feelings, not ideas. Emotions have power, faith (in general) has some, ideas have very little.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> However we know that everyone, every single person (medical experts all) who looked at him new he was dying and that their was nothing they could do for him. We know that his was literally moments away from dying. This is a fact, it is not speculation or guesses by witnesses, it is canonical fact.
> 
> Because the Eldar at the time were a galaxy ruling empire completely dedicated to the pursuit of what would become Slaanesh, where as most humans don't believe Guilliman is healing. The Eldar are also vastly more psykically powerful that humans. And finally excess is an emotion, and emotions resonate in the warp, the idea of Guilliman healing is a thought, and thoughts have limited power in the warp. The warp is feelings, not ideas. Emotions have power, faith (in general) has some, ideas have very little.


Here's the thing, the people who had any chance of knowing how Primarchs work is either dead, missing, or otherwise indisposed (namely the Big E).

In _False Gods_, I think, the apothecaries had absolutely no idea to do with a wounded Horus. They couldn't even begin to guess on how he worked, much less how to cure him.

For the Primarchs, are simply aren't any remaining medical experts.

And as you stated, the wound itself is unlikely to be fatal. It's probably similar to what happened to Horus on Davin--the warp is poisoning him somehow. I figure sufficient "warp" energy the other way could potentially heal him.

I'm not saying I'm putting my weight behind either course. Out of universe it's unlikely he'll wake up except for some dramatic endgame. The Primarchs are purposely taken out of the universe (or limited to the extreme like Angron) to prevent any extreme unbalancing in the universe. I think GW purposely left enough wiggle room to bring him back if they wanted to, though.

In universe we simply don't know. Maybe, maybe not. Logic is the first victim of Chaos.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

First off I promise you, as an ex-soldier, dead is not flexible. Look up the word and I promise you, it represents a finality. Also I'll be perfectly honest, the argument about the Emperor's stasis feild compared to Gullimans is ridiculous. The Emperor's Throne is a command chair with life support systems built into it. He can simultaneously project the astronomican as well as keep the vault door shut. Also, look up the Emperor's condition.He's actually in between life and death. Maybe you missed the threads we've put up to debate what would happen when he FULLY dies. 

Gulliman is in a stasis feild. That's it. Almost all the legions found creative ways to entomb their fathers: Dorn in amber, Sanguinius in molten silver, The Lion in an unreachable chamber in an asteroid. I don't remember what happened to Ferrus's body. Anyway Dorn, unlike the Emperor, has shown no signs of life.Once again, to speculate when you have fluff or a precedent is debatable. What your suggesting is something that this universe hasn't shown to be possible. Whatsmore they've confirmed he's dead and they don't have any prophetic story of a glorious return. 


The "It's stupid to say something is not possible because it's never been done before" argument doesn't work here. I can say that a Grey Knight supreme master can beat a Primarch. Doesn't seem likely but BL wrote and made it possible. I would've said that there was no way the necrons would ever defeat the C'tan. Again GW made it the case.So yes you can speculate, but until it's been made possible you can't tell me I'm wrong. You don't have any canonical evidence or precedent to support your views and that's how we usually prove things on this message board.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> First off I promise you, as an ex-soldier, dead is not flexible. Look up the word and I promise you, it represents a finality. Also I'll be perfectly honest, the argument about the Emperor's stasis feild compared to Gullimans is ridiculous. The Emperor's Throne is a command chair with life support systems built into it. He can simultaneously project the astronomican as well as keep the vault door shut. Also, look up the Emperor's condition.He's actually in between life and death. Maybe you missed the threads we've put up to debate what would happen when he FULLY dies.
> 
> Gulliman is in a stasis feild. That's it. Almost all the legions found creative ways to entomb their fathers: Dorn in amber, Sanguinius in molten silver, The Lion in an unreachable chamber in an asteroid. I don't remember what happened to Ferrus's body. Anyway Dorn, unlike the Emperor, has shown no signs of life.Once again, to speculate when you have fluff or a precedent is debatable. What your suggesting is something that this universe hasn't shown to be possible. Whatsmore they've confirmed he's dead and they don't have any prophetic story of a glorious return.
> 
> ...


No, dead is VERY much flexible. Just off the top of my head I can think of the Gaunt's Ghost series where Shoggy and Dorden "die" but are later resuscitated, in _Only and Death_ and _Salvation's Reach_ respectively.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death

And I for one have never said it's happening. Just saying it's possible, given everything else in the universe. It could fall either way, without enough support either way.


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Okay so I am likely as guilty as other in this post. I have brought my real life experiences in the Hospital and out in the field where I have brought people back after their heart stopped or had traumatic injuries. I is a Sci-Fi book series and as such anything can happen if the authors are allowed to do it and it pushes the Story forward. It would be very easy to write the G man back into existence. Back story could be Magos Biologicals have been working on an antidote for the poison since he was placed in stasis...and they found it. So we pull him out of stasis and place him on life support while we give the antidote. Then support him while his body heals. It is fiction so anything can and is possible.


Doc


----------



## papa nurgle (Jan 11, 2010)

The emperor created the primarchs, and imbued within them aspects of his powers (physical AND psychic). It is of no doubt that a primarch, without aid, is not nearly as capable as the emperor of mankind. The big E can control many aspects of the imperium from his entombed form. His psychic abilities can penetrate the stasis field containing him. Why then, is it so outrageous to think that Guilliman could, with his smaller (yet still immensely powerful) connection to the warp (from which he was created) be slowly healing? Could it not also be possible that the combined emotions of billions upon billions of humans towards the emperor, could be in part used by him and directed at Guilliman? His life might just be an idea, but who's to say what the emperor does with his psychoenergised support We know the warp can be channeled into objects (eg. daemon weapons). Is it really that outrageous? Nurgle can re-animate corpses. He can bring them to the point of death and grant them life.


Oh yeah... Woot nurgle!


----------



## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Since more loyalist primarchs are dead compared to traitor primarchs, to return balance (since Guilliman,Dorn,Sanguinus and Ferrus are dead) could Fulgrim come back? like someone finds out the demons real name and free's Fulgrim, it would be interesting to see the astrates and imperial reaction.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lost&Damned said:


> Since more loyalist primarchs are dead compared to traitor primarchs, to return balance (since Guilliman,Dorn,Sanguinus and Ferrus are dead) could Fulgrim come back? like someone finds out the demons real name and free's Fulgrim, it would be interesting to see the astrates and imperial reaction.


Spoilers for _Reflection Cracked_:



According to early spoilers in our BL forums, it seems to be the case that Fulgrim reclaimed his self during the Heresy.


----------



## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Spoilers for _Reflection Cracked_:
> 
> 
> 
> According to early spoilers in our BL forums, it seems to be the case that Fulgrim reclaimed his self during the Heresy.


interesting, may the new horus heresy novel (The Primarchs) will delve into this.


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

even if that wasn't the case and he was able to throw off the shackles of chaos and embrace the Emperor's plan again....he wouldn't be accepted. His legion are some of the most debase of the turn coats and he would have no troops to work with. That would mean abandoning his sons...not sure he would. I guess he could set up a plan to kill the majority of them but he still wouldn't be accepted. The only chance would be for one of the loyalist Primarchs to come back and throw their support behind him....oh and the Iron Hands might have something to say about that. Or the Great E would have to speak.


Doc


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

hailene said:


> No, dead is VERY much flexible. Just off the top of my head I can think of the Gaunt's Ghost series where Shoggy and Dorden "die" but are later resuscitated, in _Only and Death_ and _Salvation's Reach_ respectively.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death
> 
> And I for one have never said it's happening. Just saying it's possible, given everything else in the universe. It could fall either way, without enough support either way.


 

Okay, your comparing their "deaths" to a primarch being killed in one of (the other being apparently decapitation) the only ways to kill a primarch: warp poison. If it wasn't for his deal with the Gods, Horus Lupercal would be dead. That arm wound was going to kill him, and all anyone could do was watch him die. So let's try this example: As far as Primarchs who have died due to warp influence, who has ever come back? Dorn, Sanguinius, and Ferrus Manus. 

Gulliman didn't have any psyker abilities anyone knew of. The Emperor was the most powerful psyker in the materium at the time of his death. If we were discussing Magnus I might by the comparrison. Your pulling a resucitation and comparing it to a man who was poisoned by the warp? You really think that's a proper corolation? By your logic then, if whatever medic was present there with Gulliman, he would have been able to do the same to Gulliman then. Unless you think Isha would have helped Gulliman (especially after what the Imperium did to one of her children see Fulgrim novel), I don't see how he was going to survive. Horus was hit in the shoulder and literally was dying. Gulliman was slashed in the throat. That wound in itself is fatal. Add the warp poison and its a wrap.

Being resuscitated isn't a universal thing. You think some who's been butchered needs cpr? The wounds definitely factor into it. You think Dorn can be brought back? This universe is based off of a religious fervor sparked by fear of the uknown. But we as the readers know. WE know what the Gods are. What the Emperor is exactly will likely be revealed in the Heresy. WE know wha the primarchs are. Based on what we've seen all the Primarchs expected to come back are not listed as dead but missing. Again, the fluff doesn't support what you propose. Resuscitation and stasis feilds are apples and organges.


----------



## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

papa nurgle said:


> The big E can control many aspects of the imperium from his entombed form.


Such as? The Emperor has no direct control over anything that happens in the Imperium. He creates and maintains the Astronomicion and keeps the webway sealed and he is attributed with the occasional miracle (that we have no evidence are directly caused by him), that's it.



> His psychic abilities can penetrate the stasis field containing him. Why then, is it so outrageous to think that Guilliman could, with his smaller (yet still immensely powerful) connection to the warp (from which he was created) be slowly healing?


Yes. Because, as I mentioned in my previous post, these are not the same things. The Emperor is directing energy outwards into the warp (and only the warp), Guilliman's healing would require psykic energy to enter the stasis field and then cause changes in real-space, something which stasis fields are specifically designed to prevent.



> Could it not also be possible that the combined emotions of billions upon billions of humans towards the emperor, could be in part used by him and directed at Guilliman?


Unfortunately humanity isn't directing any emotions at the Emperor. They direct their faith at him, but faith and emotion are not the same and it is emotion that has power in the warp.

Further, the Emperor is crippled to the point where he is barely able to sustain the functions he currently does, things that he put literally no effort into in life. When the Emperor was alive the Astronomicion was a simple fact of his presence, yet now it's continued activation requires the souls of billions of psykers. To think that he has this little power, yet still has the power to do things that were beyond his ability in life (else why did he not heal Horus?) is pretty much the definition of outrageous.



> We know the warp can be channeled into objects (eg. daemon weapons). Is it really that outrageous?


Summoning and binding a daemon =/= using warp energy to heal a dead person in stasis. They're not even close really.



> Nurgle can re-animate corpses. He can bring them to the point of death and grant them life.


But not real life, not the life they had before. And I think they need to be infected with the Rot before that happens. So, yeah... Not relevant to the Guillman argument either.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

So far we still have yet to have anyone present evidence of anyone being placed in a stasis device and healing. The Emperor is damn sure not healing in his and I promise you more people are rooting for him to come back then Gulliman. He actually looks worse even after his fight with Horus as he's know a cadaver. Actually I'm not remembering where it was said that the Emperor is in a stasis feild come to think of it. The throne was supposed to be life support. The fact that his body has continued to decay would indicate that he's been exposed to atmosphere and is decomposing, all of which would or should not be possible in a stasis feild.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> Okay, your comparing their "deaths" to a primarch being killed in one of (the other being apparently decapitation) the only ways to kill a primarch: warp poison. If it wasn't for his deal with the Gods, Horus Lupercal would be dead. That arm wound was going to kill him, and all anyone could do was watch him die. So let's try this example: As far as Primarchs who have died due to warp influence, who has ever come back? Dorn, Sanguinius, and Ferrus Manus.
> 
> Gulliman didn't have any psyker abilities anyone knew of. The Emperor was the most powerful psyker in the materium at the time of his death. If we were discussing Magnus I might by the comparrison. Your pulling a resucitation and comparing it to a man who was poisoned by the warp? You really think that's a proper corolation? By your logic then, if whatever medic was present there with Gulliman, he would have been able to do the same to Gulliman then. Unless you think Isha would have helped Gulliman (especially after what the Imperium did to one of her children see Fulgrim novel), I don't see how he was going to survive. Horus was hit in the shoulder and literally was dying. Gulliman was slashed in the throat. That wound in itself is fatal. Add the warp poison and its a wrap.
> 
> Being resuscitated isn't a universal thing. You think some who's been butchered needs cpr? The wounds definitely factor into it. You think Dorn can be brought back? This universe is based off of a religious fervor sparked by fear of the uknown. But we as the readers know. WE know what the Gods are. What the Emperor is exactly will likely be revealed in the Heresy. WE know wha the primarchs are. Based on what we've seen all the Primarchs expected to come back are not listed as dead but missing. Again, the fluff doesn't support what you propose. Resuscitation and stasis feilds are apples and organges.


One of the guaranteed ways to kill a Primarch? Has any Primarch irrevocably died from "warp poison"? It's very unlikely Chaos would try to kill Horus, but make it appear so to draw him to Davin to manipulate him.

Why do you keep bringing up "has it ever happened that..." We have a sample size of, what, like 5 Primarchs? How can you make any sweeping conclusions based on that?

The one thing you get right in your post is that resuscitation and stasis fields are completely different. I don't know how you'd compare the two. 

You can throw in someone that's resuscitate into a statsis field and later resuscitate him. Can Gulli be resuscitated? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. I don't see how you can declare yes or no either way with confidence.


----------



## gridge (Feb 11, 2012)

Deadeye776 said:


> So far we still have yet to have anyone present evidence of anyone being placed in a stasis device and healing. The Emperor is damn sure not healing in his and I promise you more people are rooting for him to come back then Gulliman. He actually looks worse even after his fight with Horus as he's know a cadaver. Actually I'm not remembering where it was said that the Emperor is in a stasis feild come to think of it. The throne was supposed to be life support. The fact that his body has continued to decay would indicate that he's been exposed to atmosphere and is decomposing, all of which would or should not be possible in a stasis feild.


I don't believe the Emperor is in a stasis field but I'm not entirely sure...just can't remember it ever being mentioned that he is. As for evidence presented in the fluff, I don't think it is entirely necessary as the 40K universe is still one of miracles and magic, meaning that his healing doesn't even need to make sense. Right now time is supposedly at a complete stand still within the field so logically the primarch should be frozen in the moment of his death. Even if he wasn't healing this could provide enough of a plausible reason for his possible resurrection. People have been brought back from being technically dead often enough. It would just take something miraculous to heal him once the field was disabled. I for one hope that one day he is brought back and a new era in the Imperium begins. Perhaps he would even set out to find the other missing primarchs?


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Oh yeah, since this is the universe of hope, prosperity, and wonderful things happening?My bad. I must've mistaken the term "Nightmare Universe of Warhammer 40K" meaning something negative. In the words of Dr. Manhattan "Miracles are by their own definition impossible." Every occurence in 40k can be explained by one thingower. Beings (Chaos Gods, The Emperor, Eldar....surviving Gods,Hive Mind,and C'tan) capable of manipulating reality,time, and space to their will. The masses are mystified by these displays of power and term them miracles. Can Gulliman be brought back to life? Yes. Is what this post speculates possible. Yes. Probable? I'd have to say helll no. I'll explain and present evidence why. 


I'll do this cronologically so no one can lay down any evidence to the contrary using the timeline. The Old Ones are defeated by Necron/C'tan alliance. Their children,most notably the Eldar, are engineered to be psychically adept and still I'm sure their collective wills weren't enough to sae their parent race. Fast foward to the reign of the Eldar Empire. Their depredations are beginning to have dire consequences in the warp.Now we all know that all sentient creatures have one thought in common:survival.When She Who Thirsts Manifests, majority of the Eldar die screaming.The Gods of the Eldar are devoured wholsale with the exception of 2.5 (obviously Khaine is the .5). A race powerful in the warp and evolved to utilize it and their prayer fall on the death ears of dead gods. Now they hold that their collective souls will create a new one to defeat their mistake.

Finally we get to the humans. Their entire survival,hopes,dreams,love,and loyalty invested in the Emperor of Mankind. With his death we see the religion of the Lectio Divinatatus become law. With this level of devotion and prayer still, the most powerful psychic force the materium has seen, with the collective prayers of BILLIONS has not returned to life.

Now we come to Roboute Gulliman. Slain in battle by what Cote has revealed might be an in control Fulgrim. He's poisoned by the warp and in the moment of his death his body is preserved in a stasis feild. With all of these past forces having been laid low by the warp, you think that Roboute Gulliman over the Old Ones, Eldar Gods, and the Emperor of Mankind will get enough collective prayers to be resurected where these others have failed? Please enlighten me as to how you feel this is possible.


----------



## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

question: the sword that was used to bring gulliman and horus to the edge of death, i thought it was a weapon with a poison created solely for horus, so its poisonous effects wouldnt work, at least not aswell on G.
Also, wouldnt it be prudent to assume the sword was just designed to bring horus to the brink of death, but not kill.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Lost&Damned said:


> question: the sword that was used to bring gulliman and horus to the edge of death, i thought it was a weapon with a poison created solely for horus, so its poisonous effects wouldnt work, at least not aswell on G.
> Also, wouldnt it be prudent to assume the sword was just designed to bring horus to the brink of death, but not kill.


 

They are different blades. The one used by Temba the Unclean One was given to Lucius if I'm not mistaken. Fulgrim had blades with poison from......I don't know it just said that they were poisoned. But it was the same effect, once the bleeding of the initial cut started it didn't stop. Horus made a deal and was saved. Gulliman most likely even if they had wasted their time to offer would have told him to kiss his large pompous ass.


----------



## turel2 (Mar 2, 2009)

If you want to clone anything, Fabius Bile is your (evil) man.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Fabius_Bile


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> Oh yeah, since this is the universe of hope, prosperity, and wonderful things happening?My bad. I must've mistaken the term "Nightmare Universe of Warhammer 40K" meaning something negative. In the words of Dr. Manhattan "Miracles are by their own definition impossible." Every occurence in 40k can be explained by one thingower. Beings (Chaos Gods, The Emperor, Eldar....surviving Gods,Hive Mind,and C'tan) capable of manipulating reality,time, and space to their will. The masses are mystified by these displays of power and term them miracles. Can Gulliman be brought back to life? Yes. Is what this post speculates possible. Yes. Probable? I'd have to say helll no. I'll explain and present evidence why.
> 
> 
> I'll do this cronologically so no one can lay down any evidence to the contrary using the timeline. The Old Ones are defeated by Necron/C'tan alliance. Their children,most notably the Eldar, are engineered to be psychically adept and still I'm sure their collective wills weren't enough to sae their parent race. Fast foward to the reign of the Eldar Empire. Their depredations are beginning to have dire consequences in the warp.Now we all know that all sentient creatures have one thought in common:survival.When She Who Thirsts Manifests, majority of the Eldar die screaming.The Gods of the Eldar are devoured wholsale with the exception of 2.5 (obviously Khaine is the .5). A race powerful in the warp and evolved to utilize it and their prayer fall on the death ears of dead gods. Now they hold that their collective souls will create a new one to defeat their mistake.
> ...


Let me ask this first: are you trolling me? Are you serious? Are you trying to really make this argument? Because if so, good job, sir. You got me.

Are you really trying to compare a single wound by a Chaos weapon comparing it to the overall war against Chaos? Really?

You know Murtan Feygor was infected by Chaos in "Traitor General". His body was overwhelmed by a Chaos infection. He overcame it and survived.

Does that suddenly mean he kicks so much ass that he's better than everyone that ever lost to Chaos? No. It's an individual's story of overcoming the odds. 

Your argument MIGHT hold water if the Emperor or some other being greater than Gulli had been wounded in the same manner with the same weapon as Gulli and they failed to pull through, but each of the circumstances you described are so different from Gulliman's situation that they're absolutely worthless to draw any conclusions from.


----------



## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

docgeo said:


> It would be very easy to write the G man back into existence. Back story could be Magos Biologicals have been working on an antidote for the poison since he was placed in stasis...and they found it. So we pull him out of stasis and place him on life support while we give the antidote.
> 
> Doc


So I am quoting myself...lol. The above is an example of how this could easily be done.

1. They have had 1000's of years to work on it.

2. The Ultramarines could have had a small dedicated cadre though out this time working on chasing down clues.

3. He is really really fresh so if the poison is neutralized it would be a simple matter to place him on life support. His brain is likely to be in perfect state.

Doc


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

hailene said:


> Let me ask this first: are you trolling me? Are you serious? Are you trying to really make this argument? Because if so, good job, sir. You got me.
> 
> Go back and look at who responded to who first. I reallly wasn't talking to you to begin with until you addressed me. I'm a bit offended you would assume I would troll you since I have absolutely no idea who you are and have never debated with you before.
> 
> ...


 
Again, it seems your the one trolling. Did you read my post about how HORUS was poisoned in the same way? How he would have died if he didn't sign on with Chaos? You realize that right? If Horus had stayed loyal to the Emperor that poison would have killed him. NO apothocary could stop the bleeding. That's my example. Don't know what part of that is hard to understand. When the Gods or Daemon Princes have poisoned someone, not some random daemon or weapon, but the Gods or their Princes have they don't make it. Period.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> Again, it seems your the one trolling. Did you read my post about how HORUS was poisoned in the same way? How he would have died if he didn't sign on with Chaos? You realize that right? If Horus had stayed loyal to the Emperor that poison would have killed him. NO apothocary could stop the bleeding. That's my example. Don't know what part of that is hard to understand. When the Gods or Daemon Princes have poisoned someone, not some random daemon or weapon, but the Gods or their Princes have they don't make it. Period.


Wait, I what? I was the one that made the comparison of wounding which guy to what not?

You're the one saying "Well, this ONE time..." as if that's some sort of conclusive proof of anything. You're the one who brought up the absurd example, "Well, the Emperor was felled by Chaos. The Eldar were ruined by Chaos, therefore a wound caused by Chaos will pwn Gulli without a doubt." 

Do you really not see the insanity of that comparison? It's two completely different things.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

What part of the poison the Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes use kills Primarchs are you disagreeing with? I really don't see any logic in this dispute. Gulliman died the death that Horus would have if he refused the Gods. There's no way you can dispute that. I'm not bullshitting you. Go back and read the Davin part of the Heresy. They were too far away to get him back to the Emperor in time. No apothcary could save him. The exact seen was them telling his sons that he's dying. IF he hadn't been brought to the Chaos Priests to talk with the Gods he would have died. Almost the exact same situation plays out with Fulgrim, only this time there's no deal to be made and the Emperor is already entombed in the throne so he dies. That poison whether it's the same or not kills Primarchs. Gulliman is dead. Your literally trying to dispute something that BL and GW have all stated and there isn't one shred of fluff or canon that says they expect him to come back. 


If you want to talk about trolling, stop making stuff up or bringing up irrelevant examples to prove you point. Find somewhere that Gulliman is actually healing in the canon. Find a stasis feild that has healed someone. Dig up someone that's been poisoned by the laer blade or Fulgrim's rapiers and has survived, not some regular daemon, I mean a greater Daemon or Daemon Prince. You want to talk about belief. I've brought up literally 2 races that want to belief that their saviors will come back and still after 10K+ years it hasn't happened. No Gods of the Eldar have returned that were slain. No Old Ones have returned that were slain. The Emperor is not only not coming back but the throne is actually failing even with his subjects praying and believing in him. 

Yes some characters have come back. But it wasn't due to some mickey mouse collective belief. Until the fluff supports Gulliman coming back AT ALL in any capacity you don't have a leg to stand on. Anyone on this board will have to agree that given the fluff and canon at this time the FACTS are Roboute Gulliman died and at that moment was interred in a stasis feild for PRESERVATION just like the other dead primarchs were.Their is no fluff ANYWHERE saying that his sons,the Imperium,BL,or GW expect him to be ressurected. So keep making things up with absolutely no fluff or evidence and accuse me of trolling.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm with Deadeye. Which shouldn't come as a shock as I'm constantly popping up in any thread involving Guilliman to remind people that the guys actually dead. 

Yes it's not conclusive, but everything points to Guilliman having been struck down with the Anathame/Kine Branch blade that would've killed Horus(if not for the intervention of the Chaos Gods). Guilliman was killed by poison that not even his incredible immune system and physiology could combat, much like Horus. This wound came from a blade wielded by Fulgrim, who happens to be the person that Horus gave the Anathame to. 

As to people trying to research cures? Remember Meric Voyen? Garros apothecary who retired from fighting to find a cure for Nurgles Rot. We can quite easily assume he didn't attempt to undertake this mammoth task on his own. 10,000 years down the line and what do you know, no cure for Nurgles Rot, and this guy was alive in the age where science was still moving forward and not considered heresy in most respects. Nurgles Rot has appeared numerous times and no doubt has uncountable amounts of research on the matter. The Anathame, well we have three known cases. Horus, who was saved by the Chaos Gods but then proceeded to get obliterated by the Emperor, though it's a mute point as I hardly imagine he recorded the data of his wounding or told many people about it. The Apothecary who dealt with the injury(well I say dealt, more like got utterly confounded about it and did nothing) got a thunder hammer to the face, so he's no use. Then we have poor old Vespasian, he didn't even need the poison to kill him, so that's again a mute point. And finally we have Guilliman. Whom as we've established was killed in a high likelihood by the blade. 

He's been in stasis for a long time. They aren't about to lift that field to take samples from him, not only due to the risk, but in this day and age of 40k that's probably a horrendous form of Heresy. They understood fuck all about Horus physiology when he was wounded, and that was in a time when the Primarchs were up and walking about. Now they're near mythical beings with Guilliman and Dorn being the only actual evidence a lowly citizen can see to prove they actually exist(having said that, I'm betting none of them have seen Dorn). The current apothecarys haven't ever touched a living Primarch, much less been able to carry out a medical exam on them to see how they function when they're alive. And with the source of the poison being Fulgrim, I very much doubt they are ever going to be able to get a sample from him to study.

As to the person who said they thought the Anathame that almost killed Horus was coded to him specifically. It was at the time it wounded him, but all that is needed to code the sword onto someone is to tell it their name. All Fulgrim would have had to do is say Roboute Guilliman to the sword and it would have coded itself to him and delivered a poison that is perfectly made to fell Guilliman and Guilliman only.

He's dead. Get over it.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> What part of the poison the Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes use kills Primarchs are you disagreeing with? I really don't see any logic in this dispute. Gulliman died the death that Horus would have if he refused the Gods. There's no way you can dispute that. I'm not bullshitting you. Go back and read the Davin part of the Heresy. They were too far away to get him back to the Emperor in time. No apothcary could save him. The exact seen was them telling his sons that he's dying. IF he hadn't been brought to the Chaos Priests to talk with the Gods he would have died. Almost the exact same situation plays out with Fulgrim, only this time there's no deal to be made and the Emperor is already entombed in the throne so he dies. That poison whether it's the same or not kills Primarchs. Gulliman is dead. Your literally trying to dispute something that BL and GW have all stated and there isn't one shred of fluff or canon that says they expect him to come back.
> 
> 
> If you want to talk about trolling, stop making stuff up or bringing up irrelevant examples to prove you point. Find somewhere that Gulliman is actually healing in the canon. Find a stasis feild that has healed someone. Dig up someone that's been poisoned by the laer blade or Fulgrim's rapiers and has survived, not some regular daemon, I mean a greater Daemon or Daemon Prince. You want to talk about belief. I've brought up literally 2 races that want to belief that their saviors will come back and still after 10K+ years it hasn't happened. No Gods of the Eldar have returned that were slain. No Old Ones have returned that were slain. The Emperor is not only not coming back but the throne is actually failing even with his subjects praying and believing in him.
> ...


What am I confused about? This:



Deadeye776 said:


> Oh yeah, since this is the universe of hope, prosperity, and wonderful things happening?My bad. I must've mistaken the term "Nightmare Universe of Warhammer 40K" meaning something negative. In the words of Dr. Manhattan "Miracles are by their own definition impossible." Every occurence in 40k can be explained by one thingower. Beings (Chaos Gods, The Emperor, Eldar....surviving Gods,Hive Mind,and C'tan) capable of manipulating reality,time, and space to their will. The masses are mystified by these displays of power and term them miracles. Can Gulliman be brought back to life? Yes. Is what this post speculates possible. Yes. Probable? I'd have to say helll no. I'll explain and present evidence why.
> 
> 
> I'll do this cronologically so no one can lay down any evidence to the contrary using the timeline. The Old Ones are defeated by Necron/C'tan alliance. Their children,most notably the Eldar, are engineered to be psychically adept and still I'm sure their collective wills weren't enough to sae their parent race. Fast foward to the reign of the Eldar Empire. Their depredations are beginning to have dire consequences in the warp.Now we all know that all sentient creatures have one thought in common:survival.When She Who Thirsts Manifests, majority of the Eldar die screaming.The Gods of the Eldar are devoured wholsale with the exception of 2.5 (obviously Khaine is the .5). A race powerful in the warp and evolved to utilize it and their prayer fall on the death ears of dead gods. Now they hold that their collective souls will create a new one to defeat their mistake.
> ...


That's what confused the hell out of me. You ran off on a random tangent that probably left everyone scratching their heads.

As for the actual daemon blade, first the blades were different. They're both Chaos powered, but they're definitely different blades (to my knowledge).

Do we know if Horus was going to die? I don't know. Do we know that Chaos wanted Horus and his men to think he was dying? Without a doubt.

And, if you can read which I'm starting to doubt because I've probably said it just about half a dozen times, I don't know if Gulli is healing or not. There's enough doubt that he _could_ be healing, with how the Universe is run. Does that mean he _is_ healing? No, it doesn't. He could be. It's not a definitive "yes" nor is it a definitive "no", not like you're making it out to be.

Do you understand that? Do I have to make it a separate post so you get that?


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Enough doubt? Really?? Pilgrims. Highly superstitious pilgrims who live in a grim dark universe who want to believe the impossible. That is not reasonable doubt, it's fantasy. The Astartes, the Ultramarines themselves in particular and anyone who actually matters all view him as dead, not healing, and hold no stock in the rumours of these desperate and frankly gullible pilgrims.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

hailene said:


> What am I confused about? This:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Do you understand the meaning of fluff, canon, or evidence or do I have to look it up for you? IF you want to speculate over something like whether the Dragon of Mars is the real C'tan creature that's debatable. Whether the new Necron fluff is better or worse that's debatable. But this "maybe/maybe not" bs is about as nonsecial as Ferrus Manus's head being reattached and him coming back to life. This is the fluff board, not the possibility board. If we want to bring up fantastic theories with no evidence to back it up then the next time Lux or anyone brings up a thread you all should leave him alone. Your saying that even though it's been written and established the man was killed, you still don't see that as him being really dead? Even though NOWHERE states that he's one of the Primarchs expected to return, your still going to tell me that your going to make it a possiblity on your own? 

I'm writing a piece on COTE's challenge that an assassination team can be interesting.In it one of my characters, A vindicare sniper, has killed about 12 Carnifex's. No fluff exists to suggest this is possible. So you know what? I'm not postin it here, because this is the fluff board to debate things in the fluff. It's possible so I'm going to post in in the fan fiction section, where this debate should actually be taking place.


----------



## gridge (Feb 11, 2012)

Angel of Blood said:


> Enough doubt? Really?? Pilgrims. Highly superstitious pilgrims who live in a grim dark universe who want to believe the impossible. That is not reasonable doubt, it's fantasy. The Astartes, the Ultramarines themselves in particular and anyone who actually matters all view him as dead, not healing, and hold no stock in the rumours of these desperate and frankly gullible pilgrims.


This is still opinion as no one has any way of knowing if anyone of consequence (in other words not an ignorant, faith blinded pilgrim) within the entirely of the 40K universe has never looked upon the primarch and thought his wounds to be healing. You're probably correct but just the mention that some believe him to be healing despite being placed in the field after death is enough for a debate to occur. Really at this point the arguments are just being rehashed over and over.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> Do you understand the meaning of fluff, canon, or evidence or do I have to look it up for you? IF you want to speculate over something like whether the Dragon of Mars is the real C'tan creature that's debatable. Whether the new Necron fluff is better or worse that's debatable. But this "maybe/maybe not" bs is about as nonsecial as Ferrus Manus's head being reattached and him coming back to life. This is the fluff board, not the possibility board. If we want to bring up fantastic theories with no evidence to back it up then the next time Lux or anyone brings up a thread you all should leave him alone. Your saying that even though it's been written and established the man was killed, you still don't see that as him being really dead? Even though NOWHERE states that he's one of the Primarchs expected to return, your still going to tell me that your going to make it a possiblity on your own?
> 
> I'm writing a piece on COTE's challenge that an assassination team can be interesting.In it one of my characters, A vindicare sniper, has killed about 12 Carnifex's. No fluff exists to suggest this is possible. So you know what? I'm not postin it here, because this is the fluff board to debate things in the fluff. It's possible so I'm going to post in in the fan fiction section, where this debate should actually be taking place.


What I'm saying is that there's enough wiggle room in the established universe where miraculous things occur. Namely the deaths and rebirths of some of the Emperor's chosen implements. There is a precedent of dead people coming back to life.

And I still don't know why you can't understand that death is not final, both in a real life medical sense, and in a fantasy universe where dead people can and do return to life.

I'll spell it out very simply for you since you don't seem to understand what I am saying.

Is Gulliman healing without a doubt? No. There's plenty of room for doubt, as you pointed out.

Will Gulliman NEVER heal and is irreparably dead for all of eternity? Maybe. There's enough room for an author to write about his miraculous return, emphasis on miraculous, as in a miracle. 

You can't seem to grasp that the Warhammer40k universe has a great deal of fantasy mixed in. The Warp and the Emperor's power (which may be the same thing) can make a mockery of science and logic and has in the past.

Hell, Gulliman could be reborn into a new vessel like Saint Sabbat. Within the bounds of the universe.


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Because the Eldar at the time were a galaxy ruling empire completely dedicated to the pursuit of what would become Slaanesh, where as most humans don't believe Guilliman is healing. The Eldar are also vastly more psykically powerful that humans. And finally excess is an emotion, and emotions resonate in the warp, the idea of Guilliman healing is a thought, and thoughts have limited power in the warp. The warp is feelings, not ideas. Emotions have power, faith (in general) has some, ideas have very little.


Yes and they broke space and time doing it, Gulliman healing is nothing like on that scale. 

The Emperor doesn't do much in stasis that's true, but perform the occasional miracle you say? Like healing someone maybe? Perhap his energies focused though his loyal followers at one of his sons? 

This is a universe where miracles can and DO happen. It's just flat out fucking stupid to say that Gulliman cannot be healed.All it needs is someone in BL to pen to paper and write 'Thus Gulliman was healed....' BAM done, he's all better again.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

hailene said:


> What I'm saying is that there's enough wiggle room in the established universe where miraculous things occur. Namely the deaths and rebirths of some of the Emperor's chosen implements. There is a precedent of dead people coming back to life.
> 
> And I still don't know why you can't understand that death is not final, both in a real life medical sense, and in a fantasy universe where dead people can and do return to life.
> 
> ...


 
If you want to make these up then that's your perogative. Just don't tell me I'm wrong when I cite what BL and GW has said trying to dig into terms to take the meaning you like.Gulliman's been dead for 10k yrs and nowhere but in your mind does it say anything different. When you want to debate fluff about things that are actually apart of the BL or GW story let me know. My advice is to not hold your breath for Gulliman's return or healing being a possibility.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I'm going to elaborate my position. With the logic being used here that "Anythings possible" we can bring back Horus,Ferus Manus, Sanguinius, hell we can sweep Malcador up off the dungeon floor and bring him back too. This however isn't the possiblity board. These things your discussing are fan fiction UNTIL SOMEONE DOES PUT IT INTO FLUFF. Your making up bullshit and trying to convince people with NO EVIDENCE. Ovcourse this is scifi, but this on this board we are supposed to discuss things that are apart of this universe. The possibility of Gulliman coming back is NOT APART OF THE THE FLUFF ANYWHERE. You made it up. Anything is possible.A regular guardsman can go into the warp and defeat the Khorne. That's possible.Should we debate that as well. You keep legitimzing outlandish stuff that's not supported by the franchise you open the door for trolling.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I'd like to throw the weight of my name - for what it's worth - behind _hailene_. Do I believe Guilliman is dead? Yes. But do I acknowledge that there is enough wiggle-room (however little) for the possibility of Guilliman to return? Yes. Much stranger things have happened in 40k.

Though do I think that will happen? Certainly not. But there is enough doubt and mystery surrounding the topic for GW to implement a return for the Lord of the XIII in a semi-plausable manner if they so wished (though they obviously do not). The lore does the same with all (or the majority of) the Primarchs - for example the lore cites rumours that Ferrus Manus is alive and resides on Mars, despite him categorically being decapitated on Isstvan V.



Deadeye776 said:


> Their is no fluff ANYWHERE saying that his sons,the Imperium,BL,or GW expect him to be ressurected.





Deadeye776 said:


> Ovcourse this is scifi, but this on this board we are supposed to discuss things that are apart of this universe. The possibility of Gulliman coming back is NOT APART OF THE THE FLUFF ANYWHERE. You made it up. Anything is possible.



Well some believe he is still alive (or at least healing): XIII Legion IA article:

_"...There are those who claim that the Primarch's wounds are healing... many believe such tales and await the time when Guilliman will be fully recovered."_ 



The plausibility or implausibility of Guilliman's return is a topic that belongs on these fluff forums.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

But that's the thing, if Guilliman can be resurrected, then really all of them should be able to come back as well. Sanguinius and Dorn, sure Dorns encased in amber and even worse of than Guilliman, but hell why not. Not quite sure of the condiditon of Sanguinius body, it's entombed, but I can see that tomb being preserved within a stasis field as well, so why not bring him back. Hell some even say the Sanguinior is Sanguinius or part of his spirit etc, why not bring the whole guy back. 

My point(and problem) is, from the way I see it, all the other dead Primarchs(with the exception of Ferrus, as I imagine they don't have his head handy) have just as much chance of coming back as Guilliman. Both are dead, but both of their bodies are preserved(admittedly Dorn is a skeleton which provides more of a problem), some even think Sanguinius is back in a sense as above. Yet people who believe Guilliman can come back, don't believe the others could also.


----------



## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

The bottom line is that simply traitor primarchs outnumber their loyalist bretheren
>Dorn is dead (not actually sure of this)
>Sanguinus
>Ferrus
>Guilliman
2 of the 4 need to come back, out of the 4 Dorn and Guilliman make the most sense since Ferrus is headless. 
if he was dead seconds before he was put in stasis, there might be a way of curing him in the sense that a few seconds isn't necessarily dead, his brain and body is pretty much in perfect condition, if an antidote was found and he was sort of "rebooted" i see no reason as to why he couldn't plausibly come back.


----------



## Robfu (Feb 14, 2012)

I believe that Guilliman is the reincarnation of Walt Disney. I am pretty sure that Walt was raised during the dark age of tech. He was later incinerated and couldn't make it to a stasis field b4 his "death" and was therefore destroyed. I like to think that Guilliman is between life and death forever stuck and therefore not able to be resurrected. This actually put the Empire at a disservice. Who is gonna make stuff for kids in the 41st millennium. 
Actually how tortuous if he is alive and stasis trapped hearing what is happening around him and in agony. He can't do anything about it. Praying that some slob of a missionary will accidentally trip over the plug to the stasis field.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> But that's the thing, if Guilliman can be resurrected, then really all of them should be able to come back as well. Sanguinius and Dorn, sure Dorns encased in amber and even worse of than Guilliman, but hell why not. Not quite sure of the condiditon of Sanguinius body, it's entombed, but I can see that tomb being preserved within a stasis field as well, so why not bring him back. Hell some even say the Sanguinior is Sanguinius or part of his spirit etc, why not bring the whole guy back.


Sanguinius was categorically murdered by Horus, is there any chance of his return? No. Im sure you'd agree.

Similarly Dorn was killed in an action of self-sacrifice and his skeleton is said to now be encased in amber, is there any chance of his return? No. Again, as I am sure you'd agree.



Angel of Blood said:


> Yet people who believe Guilliman can come back, don't believe the others could also.


The possibility of Guilliman's return is treated differently by the lore than the possibility of say Manus, Sanguinius or Dorn's though. His body is intact and preserved, and frozen at the point of or just after death (depending on the source IIRC) and the lore has cited several times that rumours are abound that he is healing. Sanguinius, Dorn and Manus are categorically and simply stated to be dead - and although Guilliman is as well several times, there is certainly more wiggle-room. 

But again, for the record - Do I believe Guilliman is dead? Yes. Do I believe he will return? No. But I acknowledge (as _hailene_ does) that there is enough wiggle-room for GW to justify his return if they chose to - which of course they never will.


----------



## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

I don't seem to be able to do rep (should probably learn about that), but loads for CotE's post - excellent summary of the whole Guilliman thing there.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Sanguinius was categorically murdered by Horus, is there any chance of his return? No. Im sure you'd agree.
> 
> Wait, what? Why is strangulation more of a final death than getting your throat slashed?They are both entombed, though Sanguinius's is cooler IMO, to preserve their bodies. I'm interested why you think Gulliman's is open for debate. For that matter Malcador just disentegrated across the dungeon floor. With the logic your all following since we don't even have a body anything truly could have happened. Ovcourse even the Emperor confirmed he would die and was dead but since that's not enough for you guys I guess we can bring back Malcador. Ferrus Manus. Why can't he be brought back? They've got staples in the future, get the head and bring him back. Sound ridiculous enough yet?
> 
> ...


 
I literally see this along the lines of you knowing your religion is based off of bullshit and made up stories but still choose to believe it. What would be a definitive death? Just because his body is preserved doesn't mean shit. He's probably one of the best looking corpses they have, and everyone is still looking at the Emperor to return instead of Gulliman. I would like Sanguinius to come back. His throat wasn't slashed he was just strangled. I'd like him to return and cure his sons. Nowhere does it say this won't or can't happen. See what I just did. Even though BL hasn't stated he's supposed to be ressurected I just made it up. How is that to be debated on the Fluff when I'm MAKING UP MY OWN STORY? 


Why stop with ressurection? Why not have Gulliman come back as the avatar of the Emperor. This time he'll strangle Fulgrim to death. Let's Have the Chaos powers ressurect Horus. I know he's supposed to not have a soul, but they can make one for him. Nowhere in the fluff does it not say they can't do that so I have, as you call it, "wriggle room" to make up whatever non-canonical bullshit I want. Imagine watching your father die in front of you. You know as much as anyone in the universe after trying EVERYTHING to keep him alive and failing. Then all of a sudden relgious (who are usually always wrong when it comes to scientific matters) pilgrims come and refute what you saw happen. They say that even though they have no genetic connection to your father they know he's healing. Even though you who can see,smell,hear, and probably have psyker powers can't sense it, they can.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Sanguinius was categorically murdered by Horus, is there any chance of his return? No. Im sure you'd agree.
> 
> Similarly Dorn was killed in an action of self-sacrifice and his skeleton is said to now be encased in amber, is there any chance of his return? No. Again, as I am sure you'd agree.
> 
> ...


Indeed, but im playing devils advocate here. I suppose I'm just totally against the idea of bringing Guilliman back, and that's even after I've grown to like him due to the Heresy novels. For them to bring Guilliman back for me, it would have to be a divine miracle of the likes we haven't heard of, the kind that could bring anyone back. For him to....heal, within a stasis field, heal from death even, is just too much, even for 40k. Wiggle room there may be, but it's a horrible and absurd wiggle IMO.


----------



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

I realize that this is a silly question for me to ask you guys because it still gets us no closer to the answer, but couldn't Tigurius just peek inside Gullimans mind to see if there is even the slightest brain activity? If he can get inside the Hive Mind and remain sane, I think he can see if there is anything at all going on inside his head.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Actually this is part of my "How can you think the stupid pilgrims would know more than the Ultramarines." Tigurius is one of the most powerful psykers in the IMPERIUM. You don't think the man who tangled with the Hive Mind would be able to detect life in his own primarch? You don't think a place they all go to multiple times for guidance and inspiration would be a topic of conversation if they had:
Calgar: Hey Tigurius, how's it going?
Tigurius: Funny thing, some pilgrims just told me something?
Calgar: Oh yeah?
Tigurius: Apparently, even with my psychic might and abilities, these idiots thought the Primarch was healing. I thought about correcting them but figured morons need to smile in these dark times.
Calgar: Good call. You up for takeout. 
Tigurius: I was just thinking that, and they call me a psyker.

Even though this isn't apart of the fluff, no one said it wasn't so I'm guessing this is why the UM haven't been to hardcore on correcting the pilgrims.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

First off let's get this out. Healing is the least of Gullimans problems. He's not wounded. He's dead. So what everyone is proposing is bringing him back to life. The wound means absolutely nothing in that regard. He's dead.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> Actually this is part of my "How can you think the stupid pilgrims would know more than the Ultramarines." Tigurius is one of the most powerful psykers in the IMPERIUM. You don't think the man who tangled with the Hive Mind would be able to detect life in his own primarch? You don't think a place they all go to multiple times for guidance and inspiration would be a topic of conversation if they had:
> Calgar: Hey Tigurius, how's it going?
> Tigurius: Funny thing, some pilgrims just told me something?
> Calgar: Oh yeah?
> ...


First, it's not stated that the pilgrims are the only ones saying he's healing. As CotE quoted, it says "some". Some might mean the crazy, head-damaged guard vet on the corner screaming about the end of the galaxy to Calgar and the High Lords of Terra or anyone in between.

Second, you make the assumption that a very good, perhaps even the best psyker remaining in the Imperium, is infallible. 

Maybe he doesn't detect him because the stasis field blunts his psychic probes. Maybe the being that's healing him is purposely preventing Tigurius from sensing anything. Maybe some BL author will write some better reason than I can think of. I don't know.



Deadeye776 said:


> First off let's get this out. Healing is the least of Gullimans problems. He's not wounded. He's dead. So what everyone is proposing is bringing him back to life. The wound means absolutely nothing in that regard. He's dead.


I don't know how you can't understand that people can come back form the dead. In real life. Ever known someone who had a cardiac arrest? They were likely dead at one point. 

Before you get your crow bar to break their head open to stop a zombie out break, wait a second. Just because someone dies doesn't mean they can't be brought back. With modern technology there's a pretty narrow window, but it can be done.

With Warhammer40k tech the window can be expanded greatly. Indefinitely with a stasis field. Assuming that one is put in a stasis field (like at the moment of death) and there's a way to reverse the damage (like some Warp-based mumbo-jumbo).

I'll write this again, it's the main line both CotE and I have been driving:

There is absolutely no solid proof that Guilliman is healing. None. I think everyone can agree on that.

There is enough room for him to potentially be healing. Or be returned somehow. If some BL author decided to write a story about the Imperium being on the ropes and suddenly Guilliman emerges from the stasis field healed through the Emperor's might, I don't think anyone could call that contrary to how the Warhammer40k universe works.

Nor is anyone saying that will happen. Or must happen. Merely that it's a possibility.

Did I explain it correctly? 

I'll try to make an analogy: Let's say Abby gets all the Chaos Legions and renegades together and finally overruns the Cadian sector in the next Black Crusade.

Is there any proof that he will? No, not specifically. There hasn't been anything written about the 14th BC to my knowledge.

But we can all wrap our minds around the concept of Abby taking half a million Chaos Space Marines with God knows how many Titan Legions and Chaos cultists and taking Cadia. It's a possibility, right? Within the bounds of the Universe, right?

Same idea.

(As an aside, why did no one correct me on Guilliman's name!?! I've been missing the first I the whole thread. Damn it, guys!)


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> I'm interested why you think Gulliman's is open for debate.


I don't, as I said he's dead. But what I do acknowledge is that it would be more plausable for Guilliman to return than say Sanguinius or Dorn. It will never happen, and I wouldn't like it if he was brought back - all I am saying is that it is more plausible for Guilliman to return than Dorn, Manus or Sanguinius - his return would not break the established boundaries of 40k.

But don't get me wrong here, Guilliman is dead - I am not claiming otherwise.



Deadeye776 said:


> Ovcourse even the Emperor confirmed he would die and was dead but since that's not enough for you guys I guess we can bring back Malcador. Ferrus Manus. Why can't he be brought back? They've got staples in the future, get the head and bring him back. Sound ridiculous enough yet?


Malcador - as you said - sacrificed himself on the Golden Throne and disintegrated into dust as the Emperor relieved him. Whilst Manus was decapitated. Obviously neither of them could be brought back in a plausible manner. Guilliman's return would be likewise ridiculous in my mind, but what I am saying is that his death was treated differently in the lore and his return would be more plausible than Malcador's or Dorn's for example (although still fairly implausible).



Deadeye776 said:


> Your going on the word of scared pilgrims who want big daddy to come back and save them. Please, if I'm wrong give me a credible source that think that Rob might be coming back.


No I am not, because I do not believe Guilliman is alive or healing. Literally all I am saying is that his return would more plausible than the return of certain other individuals.



Deadeye776 said:


> What would be a definitive death?


In 40k? I don't know really, many people have returned after death - Kharn and Lucius being two obvious examples. 

Im on your side here _Deadeye_, I think Guilliman is dead, won't and shouldn't return as well as you do.



Deadeye776 said:


> How is that to be debated on the Fluff when I'm MAKING UP MY OWN STORY?


The return of the Primarchs (and the plausability of it) is a popular subject amongst fans - it certainly belongs on these fluff forums.



Deadeye776 said:


> so I have, as you call it, "wriggle room" to make up whatever non-canonical bullshit I want.


Well not really, it is hardly _"non-canonical bullshit"_ now is it? I won't start a debate on 40k canon here, but 40k has never used a strict canon policy and never will.

But if you want to talk about Guilliman healing - it is mentioned several times throughout the lore, and not just as religious pilgrims believing it (see my quote above from the IA article), so the theory is actually present in the established lore. Do I believe it? Of course I don't, but there is no reason why it cannot be discussed here.



Angel of Blood said:


> Wiggle room there may be, but it's a horrible and absurd wiggle IMO.


Oh, I agree. I am only acknowledging it.


----------



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

If Justicar Thawn can return to life time and time again I think Gulliman can manage to heal. 

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Anval_Thawn


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Even more reason to hate that fucking codex.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Okay, first let me state this. I never thought I'd have to debate this with you Cote. As someone who took me on in the "New Necron Fluff" debate you stood and preached fluff and canon to prove your points. Many of which I will admit enforced your points. That being said I'm surprised. The "citiations" you have in the lore are all pretty much indicating the same people believing he's healing. Let's throw out 40k technology first.You know damn well if they could have brought him back they would have done so by now. It doesn't exist to stop what killed him. Next I'd like to see where,like other chapters who have the resurrection of their Father in their story, the Ultramarines believe this will happen?

Don't worry I'm a good guy. I checked it out for you. The answer is nowhere. The difference between the Um and groups like the Space Wolves,Dark Angels,Salamanders,and White Scars is that they believe their primarchs are coming back.Groups that don't? Ultramarines, Iron Hands,Sons of Horus, Night Lords,and Blood Angels. I don't see where besides it being suggested, then almost immediately stated that the UM's don't believe or see it possible given the circumstances you feel their's wriggle room. They way I see it it's almost as though the Ultramarines allow it to continue to give hope to Ultramar's people in dark times. A real prophecy would be with Russ or the Khan. Those guys could possibly (especially Russ and the Khan) be dead. 

So much time has elapsed and given where they disappeared a rational argument can be made that they are in fact slain. However their sons don't believe they are and in fact expect their return in their darkest hour. The UM's darkest hour (when the Swarmlord was chewing on Calgar's limbs like a Chipoltle' burrito) came and they survived. I believe they no longer see themselves being reunited with Gulliman in this life, but in the afterlife at the final battle with Chaos. I can't see how you can pick and chose the deaths here.Everyone they say is dead is dead. 

The example of chaos champions is ridiculous. Ovcourse the Gods could have saved Gulliman. This being the case try and picture Gulliman taking that option. There's no technology the humans possess now or ever that could have saved him. Read the beginning of every 40k book to see why. If something warp related (which it would have to be given the poison Fulgrim used) was happening to Fulgrim's body given Tigurius's abilities I would say yeah he would have sensed it. No he's not perfect, but if the guy who could effect the Hive Mind missed something like that it would be incredibly strange.


----------



## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

I feel like this thread's wandered away from the original topic. The original question was whether the belief of pilgrims and some in the Imperium would be enough to cause Guilliman to heal. You've all been debating whether or not it's possible for Guilliman to come back, and I don't feel the two are the same. 

It is certainly possible that Guilliman could be returned from the dead if GW ever decided he should. It's equally possible that every Primarch could be returned in some manner (not even decapitation or being a skeleton is enough to stop the power of GW). However it is not possible, in my opinion, that Guilliman's resurrection could be caused by the belief held by some that he is healing. 



Aramoro said:


> Yes and they broke space and time doing it, Gulliman healing is nothing like on that scale.


True, which is why I'm not sure why it was brought up. The creation of the Eye was an event unequaled in terms of warp encroachment into real-space but it was also an event unequaled in terms of fuel provided. 



> The Emperor doesn't do much in stasis that's true, but perform the occasional miracle you say? Like healing someone maybe? Perhap his energies focused though his loyal followers at one of his sons?


The Emperor has been credited with miracles but I specifically stated that we don't know whether he was actually behind any of them (or if they were even miracles). It is thus completely possible that the Emperor has not and is incapable of preforming any kind of miracle. It is thus a very weak argument to suggest that he might be capable of preforming one on this level (healing from death a figure in stasis). 



> It's just flat out fucking stupid to say that Gulliman cannot be healed.All it needs is someone in BL to pen to paper and write 'Thus Gulliman was healed....' BAM done, he's all better again.


1) I never stated that Guilliman could not be healed. I stated that he could not be healed by the belief that he is healing. I have provided amble evidence in support of my opinion, and have yet to see a plausible way for this to work (your argument, like others who wish to see Guilliman returned, turns to other means to bring him back).

2) The argument that BL/GW only has to write something to make it true is utterly useless in a fluff debate. Sure, that's how it works but that's not the point. You can't back up a position by saying 'Maybe it's not true yet but that doesn't mean it won't be'. By relying on BL to ass-pull a resurrection you are basically admitting that there is no current evidence to support your position. 

By the logic of your argument could I not say, "It's flat out fucking stupid to say that Necrons aren't time traveling tech-priests. All it needs is someone in BL to put pen to paper and write 'Thus were the Necrons borne of time-traveling Tech-priests...' BAM, done."



hailene said:


> First, it's not stated that the pilgrims are the only ones saying he's healing. As CotE quoted, it says "some". Some might mean the crazy, head-damaged guard vet on the corner screaming about the end of the galaxy to Calgar and the High Lords of Terra or anyone in between.


In some sources it's specifically pilgrims who hold this belief, in others it is a more vague 'some', however we know that the Ultramarines themselves do not hold this view. It is likely that most people who see Guilliman do so once in their entire lives (regardless of the individuals importance) and thus they would have only one view of the wound, giving them nothing to compare it to when deciding it's healing. On the other hand most Ultramarines (particularly the high ranking ones) probably see Guilliman numerous times, possibly separated by decades. If anyone were to notice changes to the wound it would be these individuals, not the pilgrims. Yet it is these very same individuals who out-right dismiss thoughts of him healing.


----------



## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

A powerful psyker could remove a warp-based contagion and reboot the body (restart the heart and kidneys, restart breathing, etc). So long as Guilliman was only nominally dead (heart stopped 30 seconds ago) rather than well and truly dead (everything was flatlined for half an hour) when placed in stasis that is not an absurd scenario. The problem is that "preserve until a cure can be found" has degenerated into "just preserve". Unless the Emperor himself shows up all cures will be summarily rejected. Indeed, one assumes that the running assumption was that all cures are worthless, until nobody bothered to try anymore because they know they'd be rejected.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Okay only one thing you said in your entire post I'll agree with. If Gulliman has ANY chance chance of coming back it will be with his fathers help because if not it's with the Chaos Gods. There is not cure for what killed him. Ask Horus. Warp poison that the daemon Primarchs and Greater Daemons use can kill the primarchs. In terms of power I'd say that the Primarchs rank in the middle to upper tier of Greater daemons in terms of power comparrison. That is depending on the Primarch. Horus, as I've stated, would have died if he hadn't taken the Gods offer. I don't think they would have let him live knowing so much of their intentions and plans. Notice that he was the only primarch they recruited this way. Why? Because I think he was the most dangerous to their plans along with Lorgar and Magnus. Horus could have possibly defeated the threat of Chaos had he stood with the Emperor. They knew this and covered their gamble (most likely Tzeentch's idea to use Nurgle's poison) that either way it played out they either got rid of one of their greatest future obstacles or gained a new champion. Win win.


----------



## Lemanruss27 (Feb 16, 2012)

SoL Berzerker said:


> http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Anval_Thawn



Heavent seen this before,AWSOME:shok:,Angel of Blood ya all are just haters


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

There is nothing awesome about that in my books. Grey Knights are being ruined by the Codex, hate it with a passion. I just hope Ward never gets his hands on the Custodes.


----------



## Lemanruss27 (Feb 16, 2012)

Sorry for assking,im rellatively new in the 40K lore,are there codex editions for the Custodes ?


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

No, as since the Horus Heresy days they don't ever leave Terra, or even the Imperial Palace(apart from the time they intervened during Vandires Reign of Blood). That and even in the Great Crusade days they would rarely deploy in any significant number, Prospero being quite the exception, The First Heretic and Blood Games to an extent do a good job of showing them as highly independent and solitary fighters. In other words they don't really do armies. So even back then it would be hard to field a Custodes army. Now, not a chance.


----------



## Lemanruss27 (Feb 16, 2012)

I see,Thanks for the info:thank_you:


----------



## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

I have just finished reading Nocturne by Nick Kyme. Part way through one of the Salamanders is declared dead by a Apothecary and subsequently comes back to life. Whilst it is not clear exactly how it happened it does indicate that "dead to the degree checked for" and "not coming back" are not equivalents in 40K.


----------



## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

Iron Angel said:


> Little stuff the whole "belief is reality" thing works with. Big stuff, no. If that were the case, then every Heretic and Xeno in existence would have been wiped out by the sheer amount of fervent zealotry that exists in just about every Imperial citizen. Eldar craftworlds would implode, Tombworlds would collapse into singularities, the Eye of Terror would hurl the Warp Gods into the nearest star and then all the daemons would vanish, so on. Everyone believing something to be true only has so much power. I don't think that power extends to resurrecting primarchs.


 
I hate to resurrect a dead thread, but a thought occured to me:

Guilliman is a terrific focus point for faith. Sure, humanity's faith may not be enough to actually destroy all its' enemies, but 40k repeatedly shows us examples of concentrated faith on the battlefield performing miracles-Ork Gargants and Sororitas saints are pretty good examples. The Emperor doubly so. In fact, it's not surprising that big E isn't healing, as that's not what most people believe in-they think he's in his rightful place and that he protects. And lo and behold, he does every so often.

Guilliman has had ten millenia of a big chunk of the Imperium fervently believing in him, I reckon that might be worth something in a universe as mystical as Warhammer.


----------

