# Emperor and a Self Destruct Military (Outcast Dead Spoilers)



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

This thread has a lot of spoilers based on the novel by Graham McNeil's novel called Outcast Dead.



I read the novel a few weeks ago and really enjoyed it. The novel I thought was very interesting. It seems very interesting that the Emperor would create a very powerful military force like the Thunder Warriors and basically build them with the idea to self destruct. 

A brief overview of the Thunder Warriors seems to be that they were built a little bigger than the average astartes and a bit stronger. And yet, still created to fail. 

We also see some flaws in the current astartes legions. Even before the Heresy. Before the heresy, we had the Emperor's Children that had suffered some accident that left them with only 200 astartes. We also have the Wolves of Fenris and the Thousand Sons that suffer from the mutations of the warp, making their genetic makeup flawed. The Salamanders suffer from having red eyes, black skin, and are relatively small compared to you average astartes. Before now, I believed it to be just the plain excuse that it was due to the conditions of their homeworld. But is it really the case? Or is that just is that just an assumption based on ignorance?

We also discover that the Blood Angels suffer from the red thirst and black rage. Now we all recognize that some of these traits have some to due with their history during their heresy. Or perhaps all Khorne did was speed up the process of their flaw onto the surface? It seems a little odd the chaos gods would curse a legion without something being their in the first place to exploit. 

Later on, we find that the Imperial Fists biology is failing along with others.

What do you guys think about the Emperor and his continued flaws within his military?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Actually, like the Astartes, their size varies.



The Thunder Lord, for instance, is tremendous in size. His lieutenant, though, is slightly smaller than the Outcast Dead.


It would appear, however, that they were made physically stronger/more durable.



At least the impression Ghota shares with the reader. And, to be fair, even though he's smaller than the Astartes, he is physically fearsome and crushes Kiron.




ckcrawford said:


> We also see some flaws in the current astartes legions. Even before the Heresy. Before the heresy, we had the Emperor's Children that had suffered some accident that left them with only 200 astartes. We also have the Wolves of Fenris and the Thousand Sons that suffer from the mutations of the warp, making their genetic makeup flawed. The Salamanders suffer from having red eyes, black skin, and are relatively small compared to you average astartes. Before now, I believed it to be just the plain excuse that it was due to the conditions of their homeworld. But is it really the case? Or is that just is that just an assumption based on ignorance?
> 
> We also discover that the Blood Angels suffer from the red thirst and black rage. Now we all recognize that some of these traits have some to due with their history during their heresy. Or perhaps all Khorne did was speed up the process of their flaw onto the surface? It seems a little odd the chaos gods would curse a legion without something being their in the first place to exploit.
> 
> ...


"The Outcast Dead" heavily implies that, ...



... prior to the Astartes, there were at least TWO times the Emperor created super-soldiers. There were the Thunder Warriors, and there was the myth that is told about a golden-eyed warrior overthrowing a tyrant aided by warriors who were stronger, faster, etc., than normal men.


The big difference between the above and the Astartes, IMHO, is that this is all before the Emperor created the Primarchs. The disappearance of the Thunder Warriors and of the other example above points to the fact that these were tools used by the Emperor for specific aims. That the Thunder Warriors were so ...



... vicious and sociopathic ...

... can probably be pointed to that fact. They were expendable. They were meant to conquer and nothing else, and to do so within a finite timeline. Remember, the Emperor's morality is centered on species survival and is measured on a timeline that ignores the suffering of individuals... or even generations. War crimes don't even register compared to the macro-necessity of Humanity.

The flaws of the Astartes, by contrast, can be pointed at happenstance (Emperor's Children Gene-seed being ruined) and the designs of Chaos. If you take away Nocturne, the physical mutations of the Salamanders don't occur. If you take away Fenris, my opinion (outlined in another thread) is that the wolf-like mutations don't occur. If you take away being hurled through the Warp, Sanguinius' wings don't grow, Curze isn't raised to be a sociopath, Angron doesn't get berserko-implants, etc.

Just thoughts!


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

For the most part I agree with Pheobus on this.

I'd just like to add that genome's are increadibly complex. Designing one from scratch or altering an existing one as drastically as the Marine process does is bound to have some flaws and problems. This was then further compounded by the influence of the warp and the Ruinous Powers.

Also, the Thunder Warriors may have been flawed because the Emperor new he would be releasing a newer, more improved model at a latter date. Sort of like planned obsolescence for super-soldiers.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Perhaps the Thunder Warriors were corruptible. Since they had no Primarchs, no sorcerous ties to anything able to keep them in check(barring any direct intervention from the Chaos gods,) taking them through the Warp might have been a very bad thing. Or it's always possible the Emperor already foresaw all of this and is just letting the couple of remaining TWs do what they want until he needs them for something. He's a manipulative douche like that.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think its interesting to wonder if the Primarchs and their Legions were just being used for one purpose. Afterall, what about after The Great Crusade? What would they be used for?

I also think about Magnus, and his abilities. I don't think the Emperor thought he was going to sit and man the golden throne the rest of his reign on Terra, but use Magnus for that purpose.

@Pheobus. I am curious to what you think the Primarchs would have actually been like if it were not for the Warp Storms. Do you think they would have all been the same? Do you think that all of their special qualities were the result of the warp storm, or only some and not others? Because if I remember correctly, (correct me if I'm wrong) wasn't Alpharius already a twin before the warp storm? If thats true, it would seem that each primarch was designed with a certain quality before the warp storm.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I think its interesting to wonder if the Primarchs and their Legions were just being used for one purpose. Afterall, what about after The Great Crusade? What would they be used for?


It seems to me that there are three choices for dealing with the Legions. 1) Keep them as enforcers. This seems doomed to failure. 2) Just keep them pushing forward until there is absoulutely nothing left. This isn't addressing the problem so much as postponing it. 3) Deal with the Legions one by one until only a few are left. This is what he was likely going to do though I think it is also doomed to eventual failure. At some point the Primarchs are going to turn to each other and band together against the Emperor, just hopeful they'd be few enough in number that they could be put down easily.



> I also think about Magnus, and his abilities. I don't think the Emperor thought he was going to sit and man the golden throne the rest of his reign on Terra, but use Magnus for that purpose.


This is pretty much explictedly stated in _A Thousand Sons_.



> If thats true, it would seem that each primarch was designed with a certain quality before the warp storm.


They were certainly designed with certain qualities, however I think the 'abduction' (for lack of a better word) led to many of those qualities being magnified. Russ' feral nature, Angron's rage, Curze's sociopathy, Perturabo and Guilliman's minds, etc. So basically I figure that without the abduction the Primarchs would've been more stable but less awesome versions of themselves. Juries out on whether that would be a good thing.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

It is heavily heavily hinted in First Heretic, and in outcast dead, and prosper burns (I think), that each primarch and corresponding legion was designed specifically for a sole purpose in the grand scheme of the Emperor's plans.

It specifically states how the emperor designed the legions to fulfill specific roles such as
1. One to navigate and command the grand armies of the Imperium across the Galaxy, such as magnus directing the armies from the golden throne via the light beacon...which magnus goes on to lament in his own book Thousand Sons how he wishes he could have fulfilled that purpose.

2. An executioner - Which the wolves believe they are, as well as Fate Weaver mentioning to Lorgar that in a seperate time line the Emperor send his executioners after him which were Russ and Curze.

3. A praetorian to guard the heart, ala Imperial Fists stationed at Earth.

4. An individual to establish an expedition frontier empire on the galactic fringe, ala Ultramarines primarch in galactic east.

5. An individual to be in command of intelligence gathering, ala Corax and or Alpharius.

NOTE: It is also implied the Emperor designed 9-10 positions and made two primarchs per position, such as Russ and Curze as the Executioners originally. Corax and Alpharius as the intelligence gatherers.

6. An oratator of the Emperor's Will, a spokesman if you will, could of been Lorgar or sanguinas

7. A Assault Force, could be angron or Sang again...

EDIT: Also mentioned was a individual to fulfill the role of a combat tactician, one to command the generals.

And so forth I dont recall all the positions


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

From my understanding of the Thunder Warriors, they were bred creatures, like the demo version of the Primarchs. This earlier model could have been useful for conquest and was readily available, so the Emperor used them fully intending that they'd be all used up by the time the newer model became available. I would then see the Primarchs more of a realized vision of the Thunder Warriors using the Emperor's own genome to assist in overcoming any flaws with the earlier model.

The Astares I see as completely different in design. The implantation process is what makes an Astares, as opposed to a test-tube/vat grown entity full cloth. The organ implantation process allows for the gene seed to be passed down without having to completely recreate a new individual warrior, and I imagine the process for upgrading a normal human to Astares is far quicker than what was needed to breed a Thunder Warrior. During the Heresy, the Dark Angels can have a new Astares trained and ready for battle in under two years.

I would also suppose that the Astares weren't even intended to be the final model, just what was needed for the Great Crusades. Considering no new gene seed has been produced for, what, 9-10 millennium, I would say that any stability remaining is tribute to the incredible technology and design of the Emperor.

In 'Legion' wasn't a reference to some of the troops fighting being leftover Thunder Warriors, and no other references to them looking like Astares.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I think its interesting to wonder if the Primarchs and their Legions were just being used for one purpose. Afterall, what about after The Great Crusade? What would they be used for?


I honestly am not sure. It's heavily implied that the Emperor ...



... got rid of two other groups of superhuman warriors ...

... prior to the Astartes. What makes the Legions (as opposed to their predecessors) special are the Primarchs. It seems as if the Emperor had never before undertaken such a monumental experiment: the creation of life to serve as a genetic template for his super-soldiers, as opposed to just enhancing existing life.

But what if they, as well, were but a tool--a means to an end? Was the scale of the Primarch project just appropriate to the scale of the campaign at hand? Meaning, were they needed because galactic conquest required such warlords? As opposed to the Thunder Warriors, who were only needed for Terran conquest?



> @Pheobus. I am curious to what you think the Primarchs would have actually been like if it were not for the Warp Storms. Do you think they would have all been the same? Do you think that all of their special qualities were the result of the warp storm, or only some and not others?


More or less, yes.



> Because if I remember correctly, (correct me if I'm wrong) wasn't Alpharius already a twin before the warp storm?


Honestly, I don't recall this. It doesn't mean it's not written somewhere, though! 

Cheers,
P.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

It is indeed in the books that it is mentioned "This pod has more arms/legs (appendages) then a human should have"


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Which book is that?

Thanks in advance!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> I think its interesting to wonder if the Primarchs and their Legions were just being used for one purpose. Afterall, what about after The Great Crusade? What would they be used for?


Well the only snippet of lore that I am aware of (Magnus aside) which gives an insight into the intended purposes of the Primarchs/Legions post-Crusade is in the _Collected Visions_. It refers to the Primarchs becoming _"great administrative lords"_ and the Legions essentially turned into a police force. Aside from that I don't believe there is any explicit lore out there.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> In 'Legion' wasn't a reference to some of the troops fighting being leftover Thunder Warriors, and no other references to them looking like Astares.


I think what you're refering to is the gene-bulk warriors who appear to be more like test-tube babies or something similar. They are basically human just created closer to the human peak than average, making them better soldiers but no where near the super-human capabilites of Thunder Warriors (let alone Marines).


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> wasn't Alpharius already a twin before the warp storm? If thats true, it would seem that each primarch was designed with a certain quality before the warp storm.





Phoebus said:


> Honestly, I don't recall this. It doesn't mean it's not written somewhere, though!
> 
> Cheers,
> P.





Lux said:


> It is indeed in the books that it is mentioned "This pod has more arms/legs (appendages) then a human should have"





Phoebus said:


> Which book is that?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


Actually this is mentioned in The First Heretic where Lorgar sees the vision of the traitor primarch pods(and the Lion) landing on their respective planets. The line Lux quoting being the one that describes Alpharius/Omegon. So that's still after they have been cast through the warp. 

Theres other threads on this, but i think its safe to say Omegon was a result of the warp.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Obliged, Angel. I would give you rep if I could!


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