# Space Marines VS duel helldrake list.



## dragonkingofthestars (May 3, 2010)

I a player at my local gaming group got two heldrakes, and as a space marine player I'm more then a little worryed that when the two of us play against each other, I'll end up tabled. everything i hear is "your lose a lot of guys" and at the 2000/2 (2000 point game divided into two 1000 player teams) we tend to play, I find that I tend to have only two tactical squads, A scout squad (That last game tanked two whole termagant broods with a +2 cover save) and rotating group of devastators, predators, Razor backs/ rhinos,dreadnought, Assault squad that fill up the elite, fast attack and heavy support roles.

the plan i have if i do face off against him is run two hunters, a squad of flak devastators and maybe barrow some ones storm talon or raven, thus granting me several layers of air defense that all CAN"T be shot off the board. further I'll run a Legion of the damned squad to try and plasma there ground troops off the table with ignore cover shooting and 3+ invul save.

But as the blood raven say "knowledge is power". I need some information to form some tactics.

First: How much of a 1,000 point limit would two heldrakes take up? or even one? 

Second: Of the space marines AA options (Hunter, Stalker, Stormtalon, Stormraven Flak missiles*) which would be the best) the only option to me that looks viable are the Hunter and Storm talon and raven since they look like they score penetrating hits (thanks to armor bane for the Hunter and Lacannons and meltas for the other two). Each penetrating hit would cause it to blow up on a 5 up, (ap 2 add one to damage result) while glances could just IWND away. Not to mention the Flyers give the option of going after ground forces when (if?) the Drake dies.

Third: on the other hand, Imperial fist tactics grant Tank hunters to devs, so Flak missiles sound like there a bit more viable then I might first think. Confirmation of this would be double good.

fourth: am i even walking into this with the right perspective. I'm going into this thinking that even trying to glance this thing would be a waste of time. Is this a correct view? two stalkers can throw out 8 shots a turn, (16 if i split fire) glancing on a five and pening on sixes, that sounds like it could chew up a heldrake and give less chance for that invul to block that ONE shot.

thanks for the help guys and gals, I want to at least put up a good fight, but i feel like American after hearing that Cubas got missiles on it. things just escalated.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Devastators are likely to be wiped off the board by the Heldrake, so don't bother. Equally, Hunters are likely to be Vector Strike'd off the board before they can get a shot off.

I'd say bring two Stormtalons and go second - when you come in, fly over him and go for the rear armour. Cheaper than his Heldrakes and likely to cause him problems after the Heldrakes go down.


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## dragonkingofthestars (May 3, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> Devastators are likely to be wiped off the board by the Heldrake, so don't bother. Equally, *Hunters are likely to be Vector Strike'd* off the board before they can get a shot off.
> 
> I'd say bring two Stormtalons and go second - when you come in, fly over him and go for the rear armour. Cheaper than his Heldrakes and likely to cause him problems after the Heldrakes go down.


I'm having trouble seeing that. the drake has to move over a enemy to strike, and I don't see a heldrake as being able to move across the whole table, even with a 36 inch move, flat out, ya i can see that, but flat out means you can't shoot. I'm still green at this game i must admit, but I can't visuals that.

The part about Devastators though, ya that make sense. hmm, now that i think about, could i just tike them on a sky shield for a 4+ invul save?


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

They are annoyingly hard to bring down, and they will decimate power armour.

Personally i think the devs are way too pricey and not efficient enough to do the job. I haven't tried the hunter/stalker, but a stormraven is a good bet. A quad gun is decent enough against them as well. 

One thing worth noting is positioning. He has to move 18" if he wants to keep zooming, and he can only turn 90 degrees. With 2 drakes and it's ridiculous torrent flamer it will be very hard to avoid, but there are blind spots you can exploit. 

If possible, keep your scoring units in reserve and out of the way as long as you can. Coming in on turn 3 and sitting in a rhino will keep them alive a lot longer.


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## Ravion (Nov 3, 2010)

For Heldrakes they have to move between 18 min and 36 max. He can move the max distance and still fire his weapon with no penalties. Anything their wings pass over can be vector striked at strength 7 with d3+1 hits but only 1 unit or vehicle an be vector striked during that players turn. during the shooting phase they can shoot their bale flamer or their hades autocannon which ever one they have on the heldrake. The hades autocannon is range 36 and has 4 heavy str8 ap4 with pinning. The baleflamer has a template that is str6 ap3 with torrent and soul blaze.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

At 1000 points, the 2 drakes cost him ~1/3 of his total points.

Multiple Storm Talons along with an ADL/quad gun would be my recommendations, along with keeping your armor in spots awkward for him to vector strike.

He has to be able to place the base of his drake on the opposite side of whatever he vector strikes. If you position yourself really well and/or have terrain or troops that block his landing site, then unless he's super close at the beginning of his movement phase and can fly well over the unit he vector strikes and lands far away, it could make it difficult for him to hit you with it.


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## Ravion (Nov 3, 2010)

venomlust said:


> At 1000 points, the 2 drakes cost him ~1/3 of his total points.
> 
> Multiple Storm Talons along with an ADL/quad gun would be my recommendations, along with keeping your armor in spots awkward for him to vector strike.
> 
> He has to be able to place the base of his drake on the opposite side of whatever he vector strikes. If you position yourself really well and/or have terrain or troops that block his landing site, then unless he's super close at the beginning of his movement phase and can fly well over the unit he vector strikes and lands far away, it could make it difficult for him to hit you with it.


Actually anything its wings passed over or are currently over can be vector striked. As for vector striking vehicles its always resolved on the side armor.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

dragonkingofthestars said:


> Third: on the other hand, Imperial fist tactics grant Tank hunters to devs, so Flak missiles sound like there a bit more viable then I might first think. Confirmation of this would be double good.


Works well, works better when they have flakk AND a quad gun to shoot. It's costly, and most people will likely tell you it's a waste of points...but it has worked against the two Heldrakes I face when I play Imperial Fists. Otherwise, you're left with bringing more fliers of your own which cost you more money financially. I happen to have two Stormravens I can run for my BA and they do well, and my two LC Mortis dreadnoughts for my DA army fare well also against the Heldrakes. I don't really like the new AA tanks for SM because they only have Skyfire and not Interceptor, which means snap shots at ground targets aside from skimmers. Not very versatile in my games, but I face very few skimmers that aren't also fliers.

I cannot stress to you how useless the QG is at reliably downing AV12 unless you have Tank Hunter stacking on it. I've been let down too many times to lend that tactic any support at all. Stormravens are bad ass, and are way more versatile if you aren't using IF tactics. Stormtalons are way less expensive, and can accompany your SR on if you have one of each. You can also take them both in an allied detachment as it's one FA and one HS slot.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Ravion said:


> Actually anything its wings passed over or are currently over can be vector striked. As for vector striking vehicles its always resolved on the side armor.


Haha damn. Well, it's a good thing I'm the one using them and not the one fighting them :laugh:.


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