# question about Alpharius' "death"



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

this just came to my mind

assuming that Guilliman fought and killed a "fake" Alpharius 
would it be plausible for Guilliman not to realise that his opponent was not a primarch

if Guilliman fought a space marine doubling as Alpharius, it would be blatantly obvious that he was facing a _vastly_ inferior opponent, right? I mean, how long can a single Astartes last against a primarch? how could Guilliman not notice something very fishy?

it would seem a bit odd to me if Guilliman and his Ultramarines were duped in this manner 

any thoughts?


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## Scholtae (Aug 16, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> this just came to my mind
> 
> assuming that Guilliman fought and killed a "fake" Alpharius
> would it be plausible for Guilliman not to realise that his opponent was not a primarch
> ...


well has papa smurf ever been considerd a great warrior? More of a strategist as I see it. However did Gulliman perhaps underestimate his opponent in line with his already low opinion of Alphirus perhaps he simply considerd it appropriate that he defeat alphirus his smaller inferior brother with his overcomplax tactics quickly? Gullimans ego has always been prodigious.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

It's why some people think the report on that battle was 100% made up.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Scholtae said:


> well has papa smurf ever been considerd a great warrior? More of a strategist as I see it.


even a primarch who's terrible at single combat (say, pre-Heresy Lorgar) would easily smash the most elite Astartes champion...



> Gullimans ego has always been prodigious.


yeah, but I don't think he would be foolish enough not to notice the huge gap in prowess between a primarch and an Astartes masquerading as a primarch
the difference between Astartes and primarch is like the difference between mortal and Astartes, maybe even greater

in addition, Guilliman knew how devious Alpharius was...how could he not be suspicious if the opponent he fought obviously did not possess the strength, speed, resilience etc. of a primarch?
if Guilliman fought an Astartes double, the fight would probably end in a single blow...


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Again, the likelyhood that any of the account is true is highly doubtful, what with Kravin very likely being an Alpha Legion operative.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I reckon Guilliman could have been duped. Assuming the battle occurred in the first place.

It seems likely (If I was Guilliman) that I would not expect huge Alpha Legion resistance. After all I have just deviated from my normal strategy, completely dismantled the Alpha Legion original plan and launched a nice surprise attack. Who would not feel a little confidant.

Each of the original legions allhad a defect after their Primarchs. I believe the Ultramarines suffer from massive egos and big-headdedness.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Each of the original legions had a defect after their Primarchs. I believe the Ultramarines suffer from massive egos and big-headdedness.


OK...so the question becomes whether Guilliman was so cocky that he failed to notice his opponent's hugely inferior combat prowess compared to his own 

you're saying that in his head, papa smurf was like "yeah, I'm just that good and alphie is just that bad"


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

lol....the image of that made me actually laugh out loud


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Lux, now that you're here, let us postulate some theories.

Assuming the battle actually took place, could it be that Guilliman was in fact tricked by Alpharius into fighting one of his minions? 

Perhaps he had acquired some sort of xenos cloaking device, potent enough to fool even a Primarch's senses albeit only temporarily and given the fact that Guilliman probably was enraged throughout the battle, his anger coupled with the device, blinded his senses? 

Let us assume both Primarchs were in fact locked in combat, could Alpharius have activated his Primarch equivalent of the Susan Membrane mid-battle, fooling Guilliman by essentially 'playing dead' ?

I'd love to hear your input on these theories or some of your own.

The Emperor protects.


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## joebauerek (May 14, 2010)

Well just to agree with others.... ultramarines do like to toot their own horns a little bit. So it is possible Guilliman did over exaggerate.

But on this issue,

Perhaps it was Omegon that was slain? or knowing the Alpha legion created a fake Alpharius? 

Even from what we know about Guillimans... he may not have been a renown fighter hes still a primarch and certain primarchs are better at combat than others it could be as simple as he was better than Alpharius. Or perhaps it was simple that Guillimans surprise on the Alpha Legion HQ caught him by surprise which was his ultimate undoing?


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

One of my theories on it...Guilliman with his strike force deviated from their expected stratagem, penetrated Alpharius HQ. At this point Guilliman with his strike force likely engaged who they believed to be Alpharius/Omegron, Guilliman and his strike force slay the individual in question.

What follows is not what was expected, no loss or morale, no broken chain of command, rather then entrenched Alpha legion cuts off the now isolated UM strike force and severely punishes them numerically. Thus eliminating any time window for Guilliman to confirm Alpharius/Omegron death....

I believe the person in question that was killed, was and was not Alpharius/Omegron....rather once Omegron had stolen the primarch genetic templates that the Emperor had given to Corax to use to rebuild his lost legion (ALA the Raptors AKA improved astartes), he used it to create a clone of his own self using his own original genetic template. (Source = Deliverance Lost)

This clone was not as strong...or as fast as Alpharius/Omegron, but it had their full tactical ability....as mentioned in deliverance lost each of the original primarchs Genetic templates were modified...such as Sample #20 specifically missing physical growth sequences in the template.

Alpharius/Omegron wanting additional commanders...cloned their self...however as a fail safe measure they purposely modified the template to cause the clone in question to be physically weaker then their own self.

Guilliman likely recognized Alpharius speech patterns, movements, Warp signature (even the non potent psyker primarchs were attuned to the warp in minor ways such as gut feeling...cognition, dreams), and thus believed it was Alpharius...

Guilliman likely also deducted that his decisive victory over Alpharius was sincere due to a combination of the element of surprise, overwhelming numbers versus the lone Alpharius operating in a likely small number cell, as well as Alpharius/Omegron's physical stature being less than that of the other primarchs, additionally this was all exasterbated by the fact that Guilliman was so sure of his plan...his tactics that he had already removed any notion of failure in his tactics...he had already solidified the perception of success before he even faced Alpharius....the fact that he found "Alpharius" only further cemented in his mind just how right he was....the matter of how easily he beat him was just icing on the cake.

Ultimately Alpharius/Omegron would not contest that the UM were incorrect, they would want to be perceived as dead, it would grant them "invisibility" and true "freedom".

Guilliman would also not want to contest that he slayed Alpharius...as a mass number of soldiers were lost in the strike, and if it was found Alpharius was not the one they slayed...it would only serve to undermine the power and reputation of Guilliman....

Guilliman knew that in order to command an empire...you needed to have them need you...want you....trust in you....he didn't want to undermine his own actions...what was done was done...it served its purpose for both sides...for the UM it was a morale boost that they slayed an enemy primarch...retribution for the Heresy...For the Alpha legion it was a victory in that they once again displayed how superior they were in tactics...intelligence...and had now gained true freedom to move around invisibly...


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

It's obvious Aplharius and Omegon staged the battle between each other where one faked dying just to make up the whole story using some exenos warp technology probably stolen from the necrons. (cause were just that awesome)

Or maybe Im not a Necron but an alpha legion operative trying to throw impossible Ideas or maybe Im really a Necron that wants you to think Im a Alpha legionare so while your busy contemplating this the flayed one behind you can rip your flesh off.

Or maybe your crazy

Or maybe Im Crazy?

Or maybe were both crazy?

All hail Necrarius or alphacron.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

From the Alpha Legion Index Astartes article:

_"Our great Lord and Primarch Roboute Guilliman himself strode forward, ignoring the melee around him, straight towards Alpharius. The two Primarch's stood before each other. They were equal in stature, both clad in shining power armour and each wielding a glittering power sword, but where one was noble the other was craven, where one was loyal the other was a betrayer. All other combat ceased as we watched them. There was a long pause, neither Primarch moving an inch, then both struck in an instant. Each sword made a single stroke and then both were till again. For a second, the two great men stood facing, before Alpharius slumped to the ground."_

As others mentioned, the whole thing was written by an Alpha Legion operative. It is thus highly suspect. Other things to key on? Alpharius supposedly being equal in stature to Guilliman - more than likely a detail inserted to fool gullible readers later on. 

More importantly, though, there IS no battle between Guilliman and Alpharius wherein the former could tell something was really wrong. They have a face off and strike simultaneously. Even this could entail artistic license (on the part of the author), but assuming he's being honest here, it's not like they dueled for any amount of time. There wouldn't have been much of a chance for Guilliman to recognize the difference between Alpharius and an Astartes. Think on this, as well: Guilliman and Alpharius had no real reason to be dueling prior to this. Guilliman didn't like the newest Primarch... there's no real reason why they would be training recreationally together. His stunted (for a Primarch) stature may have even deceived Guilliman into assuming his physical prowess was likewise lesser.

Cheers,
P.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

If (and that's a very big if) the fight occured there is no doubt in my mind that Guilliman would not be fooled. Look at _The First Heretic_, Lorgar is notedly one of the worst fighters of the Primarchs but he goes through marines like a knife through butter. Corax on the other hand is supposedly a pretty good fighter amongst the Primarchs. In their fight Lorgar makes a notable impression on Corax (yes he lost but he still did more damage than the possibly hundreds of Astartes did). The talent gap between Lorgar and Corax is likely far larger than any possible gap between Guilliman and Alpharius (niether of whom is noted to be particularly good). To my mind this strongly suggests that any fight occuring between these individuals would be a struggle for both, they would be fairly evenly matched.

Plus, the whole story (thanks to Phoebus for the quote) doesn't ring true. The idea that one Primarch (especially solid, tacturn Guilliman) would be so much faster than another is pretty rediculous. The only other place we see a Primarch so outmatched is when Horus kills Sanguinius, and Horus had the power of the entire Chaos Pantheon behind him (and we don't really know the details of that fight).

Also, to Lux. The Ultramarines of the modern era doubt the veracity of this story. If, as you say, they had decided that the lie must be spread so that their reputation would not diminish then wouldn't they still be advocating that it was true?

And to the Guilliman is arrogant comments. I agree, however there is a difference between arrogance and stupidity. Guilliman freely admits that their are situations that are unwinnable. Plus Guilliman strikes me as the 'I'm smarter than you' type of arrogant not the 'I'm a better fighter than you' type. It seems like an observant guy like Guilliman would pretty easily recognize that several of his brothers outclassed him in fighting. Plus, he disagreed with Alpharius' tactics but I don't think he ever necessarily thought they were wrong, just that they weren't the best way to do things. His disagreement seems more professional, a disagreement between generals, rather than personal, a spat between brothers.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Don't Primarchs produce warp explosions(ala Sauron in LotR) when they die? There's no mention of that in the battle report and you'd think people would notice that.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

That was a new thing introduced in _Fulgrim_, so with the piece of fluff regarding Eskrador being older it can't really be used to argue this point, even though i see what your saying. Quite hope they keep it in for any further Primarch deaths.


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

Scholtae said:


> well has papa smurf ever been considerd a great warrior? More of a strategist as I see it. However did Gulliman perhaps underestimate his opponent in line with his already low opinion of Alphirus perhaps he simply considerd it appropriate that he defeat alphirus his smaller inferior brother with his overcomplax tactics quickly? Gullimans ego has always been prodigious.


a primarch is a primarch, lorgar who i would say was considered the pussy primarch, corax certainly knocks him around in fulgrim, kicks the shit out of marines for giggles. If gulliman was facing a non primarch i dont think it would of been a contest unless there was a serious detracting factor. That being said from the index astartes article quoted suggests it wasn't a contest, plus alpharius is a primarch in two bodies.... half as good as a real primarch? 

Would it have been a contest?

It sounds alpha legionesque like to stage the battle and i can think of huge benefits to alpharius, that a faked death would cause. 

However i personally believe he's dead... why.... got to take one side, no proof eitherway, i think thats the beauty of the alpha legion, discension through secrecy


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> More importantly, though, there IS no battle between Guilliman and Alpharius wherein the former could tell something was really wrong. They have a face off and strike simultaneously. Even this could entail artistic license (on the part of the author), but assuming he's being honest here, it's not like they dueled for any amount of time. There wouldn't have been much of a chance for Guilliman to recognize the difference between Alpharius and an Astartes.


I disagree with you there

I think the speed difference between primarch and Astartes is very extreme 

If Guilliman and an Astartes somehow manage to strike at each other simultaneously only once, I think Guilliman could still easily notice that gap in physical capability


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Again, it comes down to if it even happened that way. The Ultramarines themselves don't think it does.

My take? An impostor was killed... somehow... but the Inquisitor/Alpha Legion operative who authored the narrative (a considerable while later) wrote it in a way that would make it seem plausible that the Alpha Legion Primarch did fight Guilliman then, and died as a result.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

It is possible that it was an imposter but in this case not likely. Let say it was an imposter that fought Guilliman . One reason I can think of is that the Alpha legion works in espionage and double dealings. It's very highly likely that it was not Alpharius but an imposter because this is how they work traditional. 

And also I believe that Guilliman didn't like the Alpha Legion Primarch because of the way they worked from the book Legion. In other words Guilliman was not into all that spying dealings and infiltration type CIA/KGB style method that Alpha Legions uses. 

So this means that Guilliman is well aware of how the Alpha Legion works. Guilliman may not know all the details but he should know some aspect of the alpha legion methods. 

Another reason that it can be an imposter is because Guilliman maybe looked down on their methods and underestimated them ...BUT I think in this case it's most likely Primarch vs primarch. 

The reason why is Alpharius was first discovered by Horus. Alpharius and a team was attacking Horus and the rest of the team got wiped out accept Alpharius . Horus recognize Alpharius as a fellow primarch because Alpharius was hard to kill. 


So it's possible that a primarch would be able to recognize another primarch BUT it does raise the question about how Guilliman and Alpharius fought and how quickly he died. 

I think in Horus case . Horus stop fighting to kill..so it's possible that's why in that case. In Guilliman case it was to fight to kill. 
But let say it was an imposter ...where than how about the body? 

I'm not sure if the body was retrieved or burnt or anything. But I imagine a dead space marine body vs a primarch would be different in biology. 


So I think that Alpharius did face off against Guilliman and did die. And his twin brother took over leadership .


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

kwak76 said:


> I think in Horus case . Horus stop fighting to kill..so it's possible that's why in that case. In Guilliman case it was to fight to kill.


Horus stopped fighting to kill (did he even fight Alpharius, I can't recall) because he recognized a brother Primarch. Meaning that up until the point where he recognized him he would've been fighting to kill. And if Guilliman outclassed Alpharius as badly as the tale indicates than Horus would've taken him apart in milli-seconds (as Horus is generally held to be one of the better fighters) and thus never had a chance to recognize him.



> But let say it was an imposter ...where than how about the body?


I believe that the Alpha Legion wound up recovering the body as I believe the story ends with them driving the Ultramarines back off world. This being the case we have absoulutely no idea what happened to the body or what it was the body of. Assuming of course that the story happened at all.


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## Agent Migs (Dec 29, 2011)

If there is no body then there is no confirmation that Alpharius or Omegon is deceased. I would believe that the Ultramarines would like to think they did with the loss of life on the Ultramarines side.

Second, i strongly disbelieve that the Primarch of the Alpha Legion would genuinely find himself (of themselves) trapped under a Ultramarines assault. As noted in stories like _Liar's Due_ and _The Long Games at Carcharius_, the Alpha Legion has the ability to put plans into play and have then come to fruition CENTURIES later. Theres just no way you can corner Alpharius. Having the Ultramarines think he's dead is the best thing the Alphas need. 


*Spoiler:*

Check out The Long Games story by Rob Sanders, just a little bit of a spoiler, but you'll see thier skill at manipulation pulled off by having the Chapter Master of the Crimson Consuls say "Blind Man's Mate" or checkmate when losing 40k version of chess. You then discover that the Alpha Legion was corrupting the recruiting worlds of the Crimson Consuls the whole time and having thier true Alpha Legion allegiences come out only when that phrase was spoken aloud. Soon after that, hell breaks loose, Crimson Consuls start killing each other and harvesting thier brothers progenoid glands. 

Madness!


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