# Alpharius's death



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

"_Alpharius is the half Primarch of the Alpha Legion. He was aparently killed in one blow by the primarch of the Ultramarines Roboute Guilliman, although the account of the event is now considered suspect by the Inquisition._ "

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Alpharius

While I am aware of the fact that Wiki sites may not be completely accurate, can anyone confirm as to whether or not Alpharius did indeed die by Gulliman in one blow?

If so, then I think it confirms a suspicion of mine and something I think that most of you would agree with.

Alpharius is still alive and had a decoy of his killed in his battle with Gulliman.

I think it's fairly obvious that a single blow from a Primarch can't fell another, especially if both of them have not been aided by the powers of Chaos.

The emperor himself knocked out Leman Russ with one power-fist assisted attack, and whether or not he was holding back isn't the issue but rather the fact that Leman Russ woke up without feeling a thing just indicates the toughness of the Primarchs.

It would help with the secrecy of the Legion/Chapter's activities immensely if everyone were to suspect that their Primarch was killed, especially with the fact that no one outside of the Legion/Chapter is aware of Omegon's existence (except for the Cabal).


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

To me its also highly likely that Alpharius is alive, either that or at least one of them is still alive.

The Alpha Legion's trademark is secrecy, and it suits them to have the Imperium believe that their Primarch is dead. Although the Inquisitor that carried out the investigation of the Alpha Legion (and who is the source of the majority of the Imperium's information on the Alpha Legion) has now disappeared under mysterious circumstances, and the Ultramarines and Inquisition are not clear where Kraven's (I think that was his name) loyalty resides.

In fact I also find it likely that Kraven himself was an Alpha Legion operative, simply acting to plant misinformation in Imperial Records. Which has arguably worked in the past seeing as the High Lords of Terra has declared the Alpha Legion completley destroyed no less than 3 times.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

The theory goes the one of the two twins died by Gullimans hand and the surviving twin still leads the Alpha legion, or a high ranking captain was put to be disguised as Alpharius which means both primarch twins are alive..


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

One Primarch has been slain by another with a single blow- Guilliman was killed by Fulgrim with a single slash of an envenomed blade. My thoughts are that it was the Kinebrach (is that it's name?) gifted to Fulgrim by Horus, the weapon that was created to be the bane of it's victim.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Ferrus Manus said:


> The theory goes the one of the two twins died by Gullimans hand and the surviving twin still leads the Alpha legion, or a high ranking captain was put to be disguised as Alpharius which means both primarch twins are alive..



Umm no offense but you answered nothing and just stated the obvious lol.



Baron Spikey said:


> One Primarch has been slain by another with a single blow- Guilliman was killed by Fulgrim with a single slash of an envenomed blade. My thoughts are that it was the Kinebrach (is that it's name?) gifted to Fulgrim by Horus, the weapon that was created to be the bane of it's victim.


In regards to Manus who died by Fulgrim's blade, that's a different case. Fulgrim was greatly aided by the Chaos powers and he had a very deadly alien weapon. The duel between Gulliman and Alpharius was just Primarch to Primarch.

And actually Gulliman didn't die, he was put in a statis field in a state of 'near death' in which he is supposedly healing himself albeit very slowly. 

I figure he would have been alright out of the status field or he would have recuperated a lot faster after being put in it for a few years then taken out. 

I say this because:

1) He's a Primarch and no one knows the levels through which they can heal. They're completely different than their Space Marine followers.

2) He's apparently healing while in a statis field which would mean that his body is healing despite being in a machine that is *hindering *his natural healing process.

3) The Emperor apparently is being prevented from reviving himself due to being *imprisoned *within the golden throne and the sensei theory goes on saying that at the moment the throne stops functioning, the emperor will be reborn or moments before it stops working, the sacrifice of all the sensei's will revive the emperor. So if the emperor has survived for all this time all the while guiding the Imperium and keeping massive hordes of daemons at bay as well as keeping the hole in the Webway secure, it makes sense that Guillmain, although a much lesser form of the emperor's power, is actually healing himself which again points at how resilient the Primarchs really are.

4) The Lion is alive after a huge battle with his former mentor and it was most likely as deadly as any of the other fights Primarchs have had, evident with the fact that the entire planet blew up as a result of their encounter

I think that even Manus, the Primarch Fulgrim beheaded, would have eventually healed himself if only he wasn't beheaded after Fulgrim defeated him. 

My main point is that the Primarchs are on a whole different level when it comes to their powers and abilities, they're the lesser forms of the Emperor. They are really not human, they were born in a laboratory and as stated in "Angels of Darkness" by Gav Thorpe, have to be taught how to _be human_ due to them having blank memory states when they crash landed on the planets they were found in.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Guilliman healing is an impossibility as he is frozen in stasis. Those reports come from pilgrims, desperate humans.... the human minds sees and believes what it wants to afterall.

The Emperor himself ordered himself onto the Golden Throne, knowing that the Imperial Webway needed to be sealed and the Astronomican powered. He knew himself that he would never rise again, his physical wounds were so grave that he could never heal. In fact he is little more than a skeleton.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Guilliman healing is an impossibility as he is frozen in statis. Those reports come from pilgrims, desperate humans.... the human minds sees and believes what it wants to afterall.
> 
> The Emperor himself ordered himself onto the Golden Throne, knowing that the Imperial Webway needed to be sealed and the Astronomican powered. He knew himself that he would never rise again, his physical wounds were so grave that he could never heal. In fact he is little more than a skeleton.


All GW has to do is pull a Medivh like Blizzard and everythings fine. (for those who never played Warcraft: Medivh was a guy who got thoroughly killed sometime at WCI, but came back in WCIII to help the world save itself then vanished as dead people should)


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Guilliman healing is an impossibility as he is frozen in statis. Those reports come from pilgrims, desperate humans.... the human minds sees and believes what it wants to afterall.


I can see the whole desperation and wishful thinking those pilgrims might have but still I wouldn't say it's an impossibility, especially given the wacky things that occur in the WH40K universe. 

And since he's a Primarch, the levels through which they can heal are unprecedented and never have been fully documented, I think only the emperor truly knows. So a statis field's ability might not be fully implemented on a primarch, something not human to begin with.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Emperor himself ordered himself onto the Golden Throne, knowing that the Imperial Webway needed to be sealed and the Astronomican powered. He knew himself that he would never rise again, his physical wounds were so grave that he could never heal. In fact he is little more than a skeleton.


He can probably never heal that body of his but looking back at the whole shaman theory, could it be possible that the emperor's seemingly untraceable origins throughout history is because he's died and been reborn several times as a new person in a new body? 

Also I think that the emperor is being hindered by the golden throne, something he ordered to be constructed in order to deal with holding the Webway intact, something no one else could do seeing as how Magnus turned to Chaos, and one of his apprentices got fried on the seat while the emperor was fighting Horus. 

So he has no other person to sit on the throne when he revives himself so that's probably why he's been sitting there for all this time when he probably could have healed himself through his psychic abilities or what have you.

All theories of mine but meh : D


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## nate187 (Feb 2, 2009)

The emperor will rise again though not in his current body. The golden throne is already showing irreparable damages also the light of the astromonican is fading. 

There will be some sort of Big E revival there has to be other wise the imperium as a whole will fall be it by the nids, necron, and or chaos. 

Just how this is revealed to us only time and GW will tell ;0)

p.s I am a wishfull thinker and I believe Guilliman is healing haha


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

On a side note wouldn't all the primarchs apon their death become a independent warp entities/ghosts. Considering that lowly alpha plus psykers often do so, and return as vampires after pulling them selves from the warp (Note talking 40k vampires which are basically warp ghosts inhabiting corpses) so isn't the idea of a primarch ever being completely destroyed retarded (Except Horus, but his soul was destroyed).


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

I allways thought that the Report of Alpharius death was so scatty and suspicious that even the Ultramarines didn't believe it and instead view it as misinformation spread by the enemy.


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## DavC8855 (Oct 14, 2008)

Stupid question but if one of the Alpha Legions Captains were a stand-in for Alpharius/Omegon wouldn't it be a little obvious that it wasn't a primarch? Or are the twins shorter than their brothers?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The Primarchs were large but I don't think they were really that much bigger than their Astartes I'd say they'd top out at about 9ft-9.5ft in height which is huge I admit but not beyond the realms of possibility for an exceptionally large Astartes to attain.


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## WarRaven (Oct 23, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> One Primarch has been slain by another with a single blow- Guilliman was killed by Fulgrim with a single slash of an envenomed blade. My thoughts are that it was the Kinebrach (is that it's name?) gifted to Fulgrim by Horus, the weapon that was created to be the bane of it's victim.


At the end of the novel Fulgrim, it was revealed that Fulgrim was no longer in possession of his body, but a daemonic entity. Thus, it was not Fulgrim who killed Guilliman. It as a daemon using his strength and the cursed blade. That is the same blade that struck Horus, who recovered from that wound.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

DavC8855 said:


> Stupid question but if one of the Alpha Legions Captains were a stand-in for Alpharius/Omegon wouldn't it be a little obvious that it wasn't a primarch? Or are the twins shorter than their brothers?


Well it worked several times in _Legion_.

And as the Baron said its also possible for Astartes to be almost as tall as a Primarch, if not as tall.



WarRaven said:


> At the end of the novel Fulgrim, it was revealed that Fulgrim was no longer in possession of his body, but a daemonic entity. Thus, it was not Fulgrim who killed Guilliman.


Yes we know  

But for reasons of simplicity its much easier to refer to the 'Fulgrim-Thing' simply as Fulgrim.



WarRaven said:


> That is the same blade that struck Horus, who recovered from that wound.


Well thats not established, only speculated.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

And Horus only recovered with the help of Chaos, if you remember he would have been dead within hours if left unattended- it was taking constant transfusions just to keep him alive, and even then he was still failing before Chaos healed him.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I'm still under the idea that no one knows what would happen once a Primarch 'dies'. 

We know what would happen to their followers, Space Marines, simply genetically enhanced humans but the Primarchs aren't human.

And the only case from my knowledge of a Primarch really dying is when Manus got beheaded but I think only in extreme cases such as a beheading would a Primarch truly die.

Someone mentioned the possibility of a Primarch entering the warp upon death or something like that, a theory of his I believe but still, I can imagine something happening when they die in a non-extreme manner.


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## DavC8855 (Oct 14, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> The Primarchs were large but I don't think they were really that much bigger than their Astartes I'd say they'd top out at about 9ft-9.5ft in height which is huge I admit but not beyond the realms of possibility for an exceptionally large Astartes to attain.


*Thanks Baron/Child.*  I know this isn't the thread for Primarch physiologies but I do remember in Legion one of Alpharius' captains being close to his height. 
Aside from Magnus/Horus being the largest I would think that most Primarchs stand head & shoulders above their marines.:good:


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I imagine that if a Primarch dies they die simple as that- Guilliman will never heal whilst he's in the stasis field (and if he was slashed by the same weapon that laid Horus low then if he wasn't dead already he'd die swiftly once released from the field). 

The Primarchs were never human but neither are orks and at least one Ork Warlord has been almost the equal of a Primarch in power, but they were felled they expired like any other mortal.

What I'm getting at is I don't believe any of the loyalist Primarchs will return (with possibly the exception of the Lion contaned deep within the Rock), their statements that they would return for the final battle is just hyperbole- no more true than King Arthur rising again to protect Britain.

EDIT: head and shoulders? well that really only a ft or 2 extra in height and your average marine is 7-8ft in height.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> I imagine that if a Primarch dies they die simple as that- Guilliman will never heal whilst he's in the stasis field (and if he was slashed by the same weapon that laid Horus low then if he wasn't dead already he'd die swiftly once released from the field).
> 
> The Primarchs were never human but neither are orks and at least one Ork Warlord has been almost the equal of a Primarch in power, but they were felled they expired like any other mortal.
> 
> What I'm getting at is I don't believe any of the loyalist Primarchs will return (with possibly the exception of the Lion contaned deep within the Rock), their statements that they would return for the final battle is just hyperbole- no more true than King Arthur rising again to protect Britain.


Totally agree.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Yeah but Orks are fungi and the Primachs are a whole different ball game in terms of genetics, psychic ability, etc.

The Primarchs were made by the most potent pyscher humanity has ever known with technology that the Orks can't even begin to fathom.

We can't say Guillaman will never heal in the statis field, that's like saying none of the non realistic things in the WH40K universe will never happen but then they do.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Primarchs can be the most powerful being in existence but even they would need time to heal, if it was possible for them to heal, and within a stasis field no time passes so if Guilliman was released from the field (and wasn't already dead) then it would be as if not even a millisecond had passed since the field was activated. If the Ultramarines believed that they could save their Primarch from death they would have done so, but they obviously hold no hope that he still lives.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> We can't say Guillaman will never heal in the statis field, that's like saying none of the non realistic things in the WH40K universe will never happen but then they do.


Thats like saying Spiderman has Super Strength, but in one comic he cant out armwrestle a average joe off the street. Whats the point? Its against the Fluff. Same thing here. Anything possible in a Fiction, but good stories establish fluff and stay true to it k:. Guilliman Healing in Stasis is Bullshit and against establish fluff that time stands still in Stasis fields. So yes someone can say he is and write it that way, and readers like myself will get angry at the shitty bullshit disregard for establish fluff :nono:. 

That goes for all you guys that say, "Its a unreal universe, why get mad if its impossible."


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

From the info we got in legion Alpharius is shorter than the other primarchs and closer to the size of his larger marines. Also with the level of misdirection he can generate I have grave doubts regarding the death of Alpharius. He is the James Bond of the primarchs, and you have to get up pretty early in the morning to get one over 007.


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## SHarrington (Jan 7, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> What I'm getting at is I don't believe any of the loyalist Primarchs will return (with possibly the exception of the Lion contaned deep within the Rock), their statements that they would return for the final battle is just hyperbole- no more true than King Arthur rising again to protect Britain.


Heretic!
Burn the unbeliever!
The inquisition shall purge your soul of such heresies!

Seriously though, I'm a believer that Jaghatai Khan is alive and well and will show up at a later date. Too many stories of people disappearing while travelling thru the warp only to reappear 10,000 years later lead me to this belief.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Okay if any of the Primarchs will return I would say its the Lion and Russ. Lion is lazying about and Russ went into the EoT to do his thing, if the 13th Company can roam the EoT and survive, then Im sure Russ is somewhere about in there too, hell he could be running the 13th.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

Im not a big fan of the whole loyal primarch disapearing thing.. theres obviously going to be some kind of large event where every loyal primarch or the majority will return to save the day... i mean all the surviving loyal primarchs jsut started to disapear one after another at around the same time period, i think thats kinda crap fluff


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

As I said I think Lion is the only loyalist Primarch that could plausibly return, I doubt Vulkan, Corax, Khan or Russ are still alive- in the SW Codex there's more than 1 version of events regarding Russ' last words/actions supporting the mythical 'Arthurian' saga of their return. Primarchs are mighty I offer no argument to that, but not mighty enough to survive 10,000 years of battle- especially in the case of Corax and Vulkan who journeyed alone. 

So I'd actually consider it more obvious that we'll never see the Primarchs return (not the loyalist ones anyway).


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I think it would be a good time to introduce the mission Legions and their Primarchs, a good way of filling in the void left by the absence of a fatherly like figure the imperium as a whole could look up to after ten millenia of fighting and working in a manner they 'think' the Emperor/Primarch would have wanted them to.


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## Yog-Sothoth (Jan 8, 2010)

No, GW will never introduce the missing Primarchs. Besides I think it's hinted that there dead.


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## nate187 (Feb 2, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> As I said I think Lion is the only loyalist Primarch that could plausibly return, I doubt Vulkan, Corax, Khan or Russ are still alive- in the SW Codex there's more than 1 version of events regarding Russ' last words/actions supporting the mythical 'Arthurian' saga of their return. Primarchs are mighty I offer no argument to that, but not mighty enough to survive 10,000 years of battle- especially in the case of Corax and Vulkan who journeyed alone.
> 
> So I'd actually consider it more obvious that we'll never see the Primarchs return (not the loyalist ones anyway).


come on mate we can all be wishfull thinkers ;0):angry:


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Well yeah you can be a wishful thinker, personally I wish my tears cured cancer but you know what? I don't think they actually do.


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## DavC8855 (Oct 14, 2008)

Wasn't Vulkan killed on Istvaan V? During the dropsite massacre. 

If the primarchs did return it would dump a whole lot of CHEESE on the 40K story and then what? More cheese after that. Primarchs returning=bad Fluffyness


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Ferrus Manus was killed on Istvaan V, we know Corax escaped- it's supposed Vulkan escaped too but bugger me if I could tell you how.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Ferrus Manus was killed on Istvaan V, we know Corax escaped- it's supposed Vulkan escaped too but bugger me if I could tell you how.


I would believe AND hope they will make that out in the books after The First Heretic because Im wondering as well how he escaped. But the lexicanum says he did things after the Drop Site massacre so hence he would have survived. Not impossible to be missing in action for a couple of weeks.


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