# What was Guilliman plan before the battle on Terra?



## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

After reading "No Known Fear", and waiting for the Betrayer and other HH books to come out. I'm hearing different things about Guilliman. One he was loyal but because of warp storms it was difficult for the Ultramarine to head towards Terra in defense of Horus attack.

Or the other thing I hear is that he was waiting for the battle to end and come towards the aftermath and be the new great leader but that wouldn't make sense because he divided all the space marines including his own to 1000 men chapter to prevent another heresy . 

So what's his story?


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Supposedly, the imperium secundus arch:

Dont read if you dont want to know what lies ahead.



RG believes the Emperor already have fallen, prepares for a second imperium to rise from the ashes of the first. His plan to have Sanguinius as the figurehead Emperor, with himself as his right hand

http://blog.pinsofwar.net/unremembered-empire-art/

_This is the beginning of the story of ‘Imperium Secundus’, as first mentioned in Rules of Engagement and then again at the end of Fear to Tread. _
During the Age of Darkness, the Astronomican disappeared for a long time. Fearing that the Emperor was dead, Guilliman set up a new homeworld for mankind, centred at Ultramar. It was his belief that he could create a second human empire to challenge Horus’s Imperium for dominance of the galaxy, and he was probably right – even after Calth and the other traitor attacks in the area, Ultramar was VERY strong and protected geographically (in a galactic sense).
But Guilliman was a pragmatist, and knew that he wasn’t the man to lead the common people. He suspected that Sanguinius was always intended to be the Emperor’s heir, and so set himself up as kingmaker and when Sanguinius arrived at Macragge he was offered the crown – he would be Emperor while Guilliman became something like his Warmaster.
But there is a reason that this entire section of Imperial history does not appear in the records… and what that reason is, has yet to be revealed…​

I speculate the loss of the astromonican is related to the webway war where the astronomican was waning as the Emperor's attention was drawn to the shattered webway to hold it together. And its only when human psykers are used as sacrifices to power the beacon, while the Emperor merely directs it that its light returns, and in turn shattering Guiliman's elaborate plans as his Emperor to be flees to terra to face the end with his Imperial Father. If you look at the artwork, Sangy already looks rather unhappy with the situation.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

A story about a previously untold tale from the Heresy, is connected to one of the better HH novels, with one of the more beautiful covers of the series, written by Dan Abnett. I don't think this could get any better.


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

Sounds good, it's about time we heard more about this little nugget...


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

I thought Guilliman was best buds with the big E, had no intention of taking over anything, he was just good at that part of running an empire. 

More to the point he wouldn't of known the big E was badly injured till he was en-route to Terra and as what he did with the legions demonstrates I think we can assume he had no intention of ruling an empire. Also I believe he would of thought it would be Sang if not Horus just as Horus does/did.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Hellados said:


> as what he did with the legions demonstrates I think we can assume he had no intention of ruling an empire.


Hmm. Does forcing your brothers and equals to do as you say, simply because you say so, not sound like the actions of someone who believes himself a ruler/leader? The breakup of the Legions didn't so much decentralize power as it did de-localize it. Whoever is running the Imperium would still have the same amount of power, it's just that there subordinates would be unable to wield as much. Which was the whole point, to prevent future rebellions from gaining power without weakening the Imperium. Indeed by removing large chunks of the original Legion's from their Primarchs direct control Guilliman would've increased his own control over those Chapters.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

After reading the "Betrayer" , and " No know Fear", I think the Ultramarines just got a beating and lost allot of numbers and resources. It's not as bad as the beating that the Raven Guards or Salamanders had to deal with. But if you read the "Betrayer", Logar does something that pretty much explains to me why Guilliman might of been cut off from Terra. 

At least to me....I think Guilliman was loyal but if this book is going to be written I want to know the side of it. At least from what is happening in the "Betrayer", the Ultramarines got their hands full with the World Bearers and World Eaters to do really anything. Kind of like how the Lion was playing cat and mice with Cruze . which preoccupied the Lion.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Hellados said:


> I thought Guilliman was best buds with the big E, had no intention of taking over anything, he was just good at that part of running an empire.
> 
> More to the point he wouldn't of known the big E was badly injured till he was en-route to Terra and as what he did with the legions demonstrates I think we can assume he had no intention of ruling an empire. Also I believe he would of thought it would be Sang if not Horus just as Horus does/did.


Given what I've read about the book I have to point out that it seems like Guilliman believes that the Emperor has been slain and Horus has won the war due to the increasing decline of the Astronomican and communication with Terra. Hence why he began to forge a Second Imperium. He wasn't trying to claim his own domain in the galaxy, he was trying to preserve a part of what their father built from Horus. Furthermore he didn't want to lead it, he chose Sanguinius because well he saw him as the true heir to the Emperor and a better leader of men, of all men from mightiest of warriors to the lowest workers.

Thinking about it, had Sanguinius survived the Heresy I could see Guilliman pushing to have him in a position of power, perhaps head of the Council of Terra or even becoming the 'Living' Emperor of the Imperium.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

kwak76 said:


> At least from what is happening in the "Betrayer", the Ultramarines got their hands full with the World Bearers and World Eaters to do really anything. Kind of like how the Lion was playing cat and mice with Cruze . which preoccupied the Lion.


The only problem with this is that (AFAIK) Lorgar, Angron and their Legions all make it to Terra in time for the Seige. Curze doesn't, so it makes sense that his Legion is able to occupy the Dark Angels. But if Lorgar and Angron pull out, why is Guilliman unable to pull out with them?


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> The only problem with this is that (AFAIK) Lorgar, Angron and their Legions all make it to Terra in time for the Seige. Curze doesn't, so it makes sense that his Legion is able to occupy the Dark Angels. But if Lorgar and Angron pull out, why is Guilliman unable to pull out with them?





From reading "Betrayer", Lorgar does something to the Ultramar and only he knows the way out. I have to re-read the last chapter if he actually achieve that portion of his goal but he does achieve his other goal.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Indeed by removing large chunks of the original Legion's from their Primarchs direct control Guilliman would've increased his own control over those Chapters.


This makes no sense to me.

Guilliman made no moves to directly control the affairs of the Council of Terra. He did not name himself regent, for example.

He broke up the Legions, yes, but either

1. The Second Foundings would obey their Primarchs regardless of the wishes of Terra (in such a case then the Codex Astartes did nothing, really) and everyone is in the same place they were before its implications or...

2. The Codex Astartes worked. It decentralized power outside the hands of the remaining few Primarchs. In such a case, Guilliman is just as hamstrung as the rest of the Primarchs in wielding their former Legions.



MEQinc said:


> The only problem with this is that (AFAIK) Lorgar, Angron and their Legions all make it to Terra in time for the Seige. Curze doesn't, so it makes sense that his Legion is able to occupy the Dark Angels. But if Lorgar and Angron pull out, why is Guilliman unable to pull out with them?


Istvaan (if I recall) isn't all that far from Terra (if I recall correctly..). Ultramar is on the opposite of the galaxy.

Plus the Traitors had the Chaos gods to play havoc on the immaterium.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

Some very good points

Guillimans little empire came about before the Heresy right?

tbh I see each of the Primarchs as being a personification of a part of the big E (and humanities) character and Guilliman was just the part that's good at running things imho


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Curze doesn't, so it makes sense that his Legion is able to occupy the Dark Angels


Well the Dark Angels won the Thramas Campaign, though it's unclear just how long before the Siege of Terra they won it. So remains to be seen what exactly held the Lion up. I'm toying with the idea that they might end up being the forces that aid the Space Wolves against the Alpha Legion from an 'unexpected quarter', they've now got a device that allows them to travel wholesale with devastating unity and accuracy, and it would match up with the original fluff of the Dark Angel and Space Wolves forming the combined fleet that breaks the Siege. Again just a theory, but possible.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

hailene said:


> Guilliman made no moves to directly control the affairs of the Council of Terra. He did not name himself regent, for example.


It seems clear to me that Guilliman would've been Warmaster, or whatever they chose to call that position, in the Scourging. Such a position would've existed, as they still required a centralized command to co-ordinate. 

By occupying this position of command (perhaps informally) Guilliman would've had indirect control over everything the Imperium controlled, including his brothers Legions. However the other Primarchs are still sorta-technically his equal and may well have resisted Guilliman's rule. By removing parts of their Legions from their command Guilliman reduces the influence those Primarchs have, making it easier for him command those Chapters.

Does that make it clearer?



> Istvaan (if I recall) isn't all that far from Terra (if I recall correctly..). Ultramar is on the opposite of the galaxy.


Right but the WE and WB were both involved in the Shadow Crusade in Ultramar. And still managed to make it to Terra.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> It seems clear to me that Guilliman would've been Warmaster, or whatever they chose to call that position, in the Scourging. Such a position would've existed, as they still required a centralized command to co-ordinate.
> 
> By occupying this position of command (perhaps informally) Guilliman would've had indirect control over everything the Imperium controlled, including his brothers Legions. However the other Primarchs are still sorta-technically his equal and may well have resisted Guilliman's rule. By removing parts of their Legions from their command Guilliman reduces the influence those Primarchs have, making it easier for him command those Chapters.
> 
> Does that make it clearer?


Yeah it's a valid point but nothing has hinted that that was Gullimans plan was it? He's one of the only proper goodytwoshoes isn't he? If he did want to then why wasn't he Warmaster etc in the scourging and more to the point who was???


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Well the Dark Angels won the Thramas Campaign, though it's unclear just how long before the Siege of Terra they won it. So remains to be seen what exactly held the Lion up.


"Savage Weapons" starts with the Dark Angels having fought the Night Lords for two years. "The Lion" starts eighty-two days later. I think it's fair to say that all these events (to include "Prince of Crows") occur no more than three years after "Fallen Angels" (which was set before Isstvan V).



> I'm toying with the idea that they might end up being the forces that aid the Space Wolves against the Alpha Legion from an 'unexpected quarter', they've now got a device that allows them to travel wholesale with devastating unity and accuracy, and it would match up with the original fluff of the Dark Angel and Space Wolves forming the combined fleet that breaks the Siege. Again just a theory, but possible.


That's the way I lean as well.



kwak76 said:


> Or the other thing I hear is that he was waiting for the battle to end and come towards the aftermath and be the new great leader but that wouldn't make sense because he divided all the space marines including his own to 1000 men chapter to prevent another heresy.


I don't think that Guilliman was trying to take over from the Emperor, per se, but him splitting up the Legions isn't what proves it. After all, the reduction of Space Marines forces came following the Scouring. The Imperium had regained control of the Galaxy. The Great Crusade was, for all intents and purposes, over.

The splitting of the Legions thus parallels what Rome did with her own Legions. The Romans no longer needed 5-10,000 man Legions, which were designed to invade, maneuver, and defeat armies in battle. They instead had 1-2,000 man Legions, meant to guard the frontier (with each such Legion being maybe a few day's march away from the next) and provide interior security.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> It seems clear to me that Guilliman would've been Warmaster, or whatever they chose to call that position, in the Scourging. Such a position would've existed, as they still required a centralized command to co-ordinate.


Could you cite your source where Guilliman occupies such a position, please?

Even if it he did hold such a position during the Scouring, did he maintain it afterwards?



MEQinc said:


> Right but the WE and WB were both involved in the Shadow Crusade in Ultramar. And still managed to make it to Terra.


Is this from _Betrayer_? I haven't gotten myself a copy yet. Doh!


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

hailene said:


> Could you cite your source where Guilliman occupies such a position, please?
> 
> Even if it he did hold such a position during the Scouring, did he maintain it afterwards?


I don't have a source, it's just what I think is most likely. Fact: Guilliman commands the single largest military force at the Imperiums disposal. Fact: The Codex Astartes becomes the primary tactical manual in the Imperium at this time. Supposition: Guilliman would be the reason why it became more important. Fact: Dorn is forced (as in, by force) to disband his Legion into Chapters, the Ultramarines are behind this force. Theory: If Guilliman is in a position powerful enough to force his brothers to adopt his methods, and to ensure the entire Imperium follows his methods, then it doesn't matter what title he has at the time he is de-facto the leader of the Imperium's military. 

As to how long he would've held this position, I am uncertain. But didn't he die fairly shortly after the Scouring?



> Is this from _Betrayer_? I haven't gotten myself a copy yet. Doh!


Yup.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

hailene said:


> Could you cite your source where Guilliman occupies such a position, please?
> 
> Even if it he did hold such a position during the Scouring, did he maintain it afterwards?


Guilliman took command of all Imperial forces after the Heresy ended and the Scouring began, being away from virtually all my source material I can't give any accurate sources(though you can take me word on it that he did), but I would hazard to say it's mentioned in Collected Visions, perhaps the 5th or 6th Space Marine Codex, and one of the older marine codexs also. 

Not actually sure when Guilliman stepped down however, again, need my books!


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Supposition: Guilliman would be the reason why it became more important.


Why would he divide up his Legion if he has the strongest force left in the Imperium? He has all the cards. Why level everyone when he's on top?

Also, from the Space Wolves codex:

"With the permanent enthronement of the Emperor came a different age, and the rule of the Imperium passed to the High Lords of Terra."

From the Death Watch rulebook:

"In the wake of the calamity that was the Horus Heresy, the foundations of the Imperium were laid down. The first High Lords of Terra established the structure by which the Adeptus Terra operated..."



MEQinc said:


> Fact: Dorn is forced (as in, by force) to disband his Legion into Chapters, the Ultramarines are behind this force. .


Negative. Dorn relents after being fired upon by an Imperial cruiser.

He didn't want to split the Imperium again right after the Horus Heresy.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

hailene said:


> Why would he divide up his Legion if he has the strongest force left in the Imperium? He has all the cards. Why level everyone when he's on top?


Again:
"... the reduction of Space Marines forces came following the Scouring. The Imperium had regained control of the Galaxy. The Great Crusade was, for all intents and purposes, over.

The splitting of the Legions thus parallels what Rome did with her own Legions. The Romans no longer needed 5-10,000 man Legions, which were designed to invade, maneuver, and defeat armies in battle. They instead had 1-2,000 man Legions, meant to guard the frontier (with each such Legion being maybe a few day's march away from the next) and provide interior security."

It was about (A) removing power from the hands of potential threats to the Imperium, and (B) transitioning from "Crusade Mode" to "Consolidation Mode". Guilliman didn't have to worry about the fact that his own Ultramarines were divided. He was the Lord Commander of the Imperium, in charge of all fighting forces, and a sitting member of the nascent High Lords of Terra.

Source: Codex Ultramarines, pg 8; Index Astartes I - "Codex Astartes", pg 12.



> Negative. Dorn relents after being fired upon by an Imperial cruiser.


Which was enforcing rules and divisions that were decreed by Roboute Guilliman. Either way, the point kind of stands.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Again:
> It was about (A) removing power from the hands of potential threats to the Imperium, and (B) transitioning from "Crusade Mode" to "Consolidation Mode". Guilliman didn't have to worry about the fact that his own Ultramarines were divided. He was the Lord Commander of the Imperium, in charge of all fighting forces, and a sitting member of the nascent High Lords of Terra.


We're on sketchy ground since only "tradition" states that Guilliman was the Lord Commander. And it's a bit iffier since it says he commanded ALL the armed forces of the Imperium which we know that power is divided amongst the Imperial Navy, Imperial Guard, the Mechanicus, and individual planetary lords (for the Planetary Defense Force).

Furthermore, the Space Marine Chapters are autonomous beings. They don't have to obey the Lord Commander Militant if they didn't feel like it (as long as they can justify their actions).

Also, oddly enough, I can't find your quoted material from the Index Astartes. I'm looking at the page, and I think it's correct, since it's talking about the Codex Astartes.

My copy has Rites and Imitation starting on page 2, right? Maybe we have different editions?



Phoebus said:


> Again:
> Which was enforcing rules and divisions that were decreed by Roboute Guilliman. Either way, the point kind of stands.


No, there's a nuanced difference. Dorn could have gone kicking and screaming (he and half his surviving Loyalist brothers) but his better judgement prevailed.

He was not forced. He acquiesced.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

hailene said:


> We're on sketchy ground since only "tradition" states that Guilliman was the Lord Commander. And it's a bit iffier since it says he commanded ALL the armed forces of the Imperium which we know that power is divided amongst the Imperial Navy, Imperial Guard, the Mechanicus, and individual planetary lords (for the Planetary Defense Force).


Much of that division happened _after_ the Heresy, during the Reconstruction when Guilliman was the Lord Commander of the Imperium, the only man to hold that rank. At that time he had command over just about every military force the Imperium, just like Horus did as Warmaster. I can tell you why he was chosen because out of the surviving loyal Primarchs he was the best man for the job. And you what given that he divided the Legions into Chapters I suspect he was also involved in dividing the Imperial Army into the Imperial Navy and Guard.



hailene said:


> Furthermore, the Space Marine Chapters are autonomous beings. They don't have to obey the Lord Commander Militant if they didn't feel like it (as long as they can justify their actions).


Again that's after the Heresy. Before that the Astartes Legions were the main armed forces of the Imperium and much of the rest were basically satellite forces to them. Astartes Commanders led not just their fellow SM but led the Fleets that carried their forces and were the overall commanders the Imperial Army Regiments accompanying them. Essentially in 30K the Primarchs and the Astartes were commanding much of the Imperium's military might.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

hailene said:


> We're on sketchy ground since only "tradition" states that Guilliman was the Lord Commander. And it's a bit iffier since it says he commanded ALL the armed forces of the Imperium which we know that power is divided amongst the Imperial Navy, Imperial Guard, the Mechanicus, and individual planetary lords (for the Planetary Defense Force).


The "tradition" bit is only in Codex Ultramarines, though. In the Codex Astartes article, it is stated as fact. Chalk it up to the evolution of fluff, I guess; the compilation of Index Astartes articles was published 7 years after the Codex in question was. 



> Furthermore, the Space Marine Chapters are autonomous beings. They don't have to obey the Lord Commander Militant if they didn't feel like it (as long as they can justify their actions).


That's how things work now, yes. That's not necessarily how things worked back in the time directly after the Scouring, though. It's all conjecture, but the fact that Guilliman - as Lord Commander of the Imperium and as one of the High Lords of Terra - had the pull to disband the Legions, this would lead me to think that we're looking at a completely different command structure.

No doubt, though, the disappearance of the Primarchs probably brought about this currently curious situation wherein the various Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes can be held accountable for their actions... but don't technically answer to anyone in terms of having a chain of command that ends at the High Lords.



> Also, oddly enough, I can't find your quoted material from the Index Astartes. I'm looking at the page, and I think it's correct, since it's talking about the Codex Astartes.
> 
> My copy has Rites and Imitation starting on page 2, right? Maybe we have different editions?


Yeah, I have Rites and Initiation on page 2, as well. On Page 12, the applicable references are in the second and third paragraphs. Directly below the 2nd paragraph is an older illustration, featuring Ultramarines facing to the reader's right, with fortifications in the backdrop.

I hope that helps. 



> No, there's a nuanced difference. Dorn could have gone kicking and screaming (he and half his surviving Loyalist brothers) but his better judgement prevailed.
> 
> He was not forced. He acquiesced.


I don't think anyone is saying he did something other than acquiesce. That's neither here nor there, though. I think the point being raised is that Dorn didn't agree with the decision to divide his Legion - a decision imposed by the Lord Commander of the Imperium and one of the High Lords of Terra. Subsequently, forces of the Imperium almost came to blows with him because he wasn't obeying that specific order.

Frustratingly enough, though, I can't remember the source material that states the Fists were fired on by the Navy. Most of the fluff focuses on the Iron Cage (which I personally prefer). :dunno:


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

hailene said:


> Could you cite your source where Guilliman occupies such a position, please?
> 
> Even if it he did hold such a position during the Scouring, did he maintain it afterwards?


I don't understand the logic behind your argument. Guilliman is the only Primarch who was a High Lord of Terra. That and the fact that his legion was the biggest. And may I also include that he had the power of a system behind his back, I don't see how you could think otherwise.

Was there someone else you think was able to make the legions submit to the codex? So far throughout the Heresy the main characters have been the Emperor, Malcador, and the Primarchs. With the first two dead, I don't understand how someone would simply declare themselves "the leader" of the Imperium with legions and armies still under control of the Primarchs.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Again that's after the Heresy.


We're talking about post-heresy. Guilliman didn't have overall command of all Imperial forces during the Heresy or Scouring.



Phoebus said:


> The "tradition" bit is only in Codex Ultramarines, though. In the Codex Astartes article, it is stated as fact. Chalk it up to the evolution of fluff, I guess; the compilation of Index Astartes articles was published 7 years after the Codex in question was.


The Index Astartes doesn't (to my knowledge) state that Guilliman was overall commander of Imperial forces. It does indirectly state he may have been a Lord Terra (but not explicitly so).



Phoebus said:


> That's how things work now, yes. That's not necessarily how things worked back in the time directly after the Scouring, though. It's all conjecture, but the fact that Guilliman - as Lord Commander of the Imperium and as one of the High Lords of Terra - had the pull to disband the Legions, this would lead me to think that we're looking at a completely different command structure.


He may have been given the responsibility of reorganizing the Legions, but that doesn't necessarily mean he had the power to enforce it.

Just like how Congress puts in new legislation. They themselves don't necessarily have the power to force the laws.



Phoebus said:


> Yeah, I have Rites and Initiation on page 2, as well. On Page 12, the applicable references are in the second and third paragraphs.


I still don't see your Roman army quote. Or the line about the Great Crusade being over. Are you paraphrasing? You have them up in quotes...



Phoebus said:


> I don't think anyone is saying he did something other than acquiesce.


He eventually saw the correctness of Guilliman's decision to break up the Legion.
~~~~~~

Side note, I have friends over. I won't be able to respond for a few days. Sorry for my brief answers.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

hailene said:


> The Index Astartes doesn't (to my knowledge) state that Guilliman was overall commander of Imperial forces. It does indirectly state he may have been a Lord Terra (but not explicitly so).


It's implied, is it not? He's the only Primarch who is also a High Lord of Terra, and he possesses the authority to reorganize Space Marine forces, to include Legions other than his own.

We're getting into the nuances of military structure at this point. Even is you argue that he was only a High Lord of Terra and not Lord Commander of the Imperium, Roboute Guilliman claimed - and was granted, by the authorities of the Imperium - administrative authority over the remaining Legiones Astartes, the Imperial Army, and the Imperial Navy. This would make him akin to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff of the United States military, who is responsible for the training, equipping, and administrative needs of the nation's armed forces (but separate from combatant commanders - those generals who are responsible for conducting a war, such as Afghanistan or Iraq).

Either way you cut it, though, Roboute Guilliman possessed authority above and beyond that of the other Primarchs. He used that authority to re-organize the Legiones Astartes into the Adeptus Astartes. When a single Primarch fought against this, Imperial forces almost exercised force against him - to enforce changes that had been passed under Guilliman's authority.



> He may have been given the responsibility of reorganizing the Legions, but that doesn't necessarily mean he had the power to enforce it.


I'm not trying to be rude, but that's really neither here nor there... and also doesn't really reconcile with the way military forces have worked since the dawn of recorded history. You can take it back to the Kings of Sparta being censured by the Ephors, Gaius Julius Caesar being recalled by the Senate, the politicking of the Parliament affecting British Generals fighting against Napoleon, or American Generals in Afghanistan being fired over statements featured in Rolling Stone Magazine. When a combatant commander does something that goes against the wishes of the government whom he is fighting for, he can be held accountable - so long as said government can exert its authority over him. That's precisely what happened to Rogal Dorn.



> I still don't see your Roman army quote. Or the line about the Great Crusade being over. Are you paraphrasing? You have them up in quotes...


_I was quoting myself from an earlier post._ 

The only quotes I was referencing from Index Astartes were the ones about Roboute. Sorry about any confusion!



> Side note, I have friends over. I won't be able to respond for a few days. Sorry for my brief answers.


Have fun!


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

During the Horus Heresy, Rogal Dorn pretty much was the Warmaster of the Imperium, with ultimate authority over the Imperial warmachine, but when did he cede it to Guiliman?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Rogal was wracked with guilt over what happened to the Emperor, blaming himself for not being there to defend him(and probably Sanguinius as well). Coupled with grief over his brother and father and he pretty much was in no state of mind to command.

He went on a penitence crusade instead in the end. His only objective being to punish the traitors and destroy them. Guilliman on the other hand saw that the Imperium needed stabilising and the days of crusades were over, it was time to consolidate. I imagine Dorn was far too busy chasing the traitors than to worry about what Guilliman or the rest of the Imperium was doing.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

Each of the Primarchs was epic at certain things, jacks of all trades and masters of one. This is symbolised by there current fighting styles. Gulliman (a tactician), Dorn (stoic defence), Khan (fast assaults), Sanguinius (hand to hand assaults, up close and personal) theres one for each of them but I'm drunk and stumped 

So it makes sense that Gulliman was in charge of arranging things while the rest went on the attack.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I'm interested in how Dorn simply lost his power. I imagine it was over the course of time. Dorn really is the only symbol of the victory of the siege. 

Even with the grief and regret that he has, when people look at the victory of the siege, even though Dorn wasn't necessarly the cause for the traitor's retreat, he certainly is that symbol to which the Imperium would rally behind. 

He was the defender of Terra and was there at the thickest fighting. I imagine Terra's government would have rallied behind Dorn's ideology. Its kind of like sports teams. The player may have not scored the game winning point, but he was there, and is the only one left to portray that legacy. That in itself warrants the highest level of respect, even with newer and better players joining the team. He is a veteran, and knows how to play when the time comes.

Because of this, I imagine an entire series could be given to the reformation of the Imperium. What could have possibly crossed the Primarch's that dared to stand up against Dorn, who essentially is that last hero of Terra? Why did people side with Guilliman when he wasn't even there?

I can't help but think that Guilliman really put his foot in the door. Another thing that crosses my mind, is that perhaps the people of the Imperium despised the Astartes after this incident. Dorn may have been the Hero of Terra, but essentially, in a close minded human sense, if they never were, this event would never happen. Remember, in a CLOSE MINDED WAY. Which I think many of the citizens of the Imperium probably think. The breaking down of the legions was the motivation to rally against the astartes during this time. So essentially in this mind set, its pretty much, "Oh Dorn you're a Hero? You and your astartes buddies can go fuck yourselves, this is all your fault!"


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Think about it this way though. Dorn was the defender of Terra, the Emperors Praetorian. His job to the eyes of everyone was to defend Terra and the Emperor. To the eyes of everyone else that isn't smart enough or in a position to know better, Dorn failed. In their eyes Horus ravaged Terra, Dorn allowed Fulgrim and the Emperors Children to terrorize and do....things to the civilian populace and most of all, he let the Emperor become so catastrophically injured that he had to be interred upon the Golden Throne. 

Now look at the others. Sanguinius, the Angel, the most beautiful looking of all the Primarchs and one of the most compassionate, people loved him before, then he martyrs himself for the Emperor, no doubt the story of him having crucially wounded Horus so the Emperor could defeat him having been spread by the propaganda machine. 

Guilliman, Russ and the Lion broke the siege, imagine how glad the surviving citizens and soldiers were to see these Primarchs, charging in like the cavalry of old to beat back the traitors, hell the Lion even pretty much is the image of a knight of old. 

Not only this, but Dorn then goes charging off to chase the traitors, uncaring for what's left of Terra or it's populace. Meanwhile Guilliman steps in and starts to reorganise and rebuild the Imperium, doing everything they need and helping them. 

We obviously know better regarding Dorn, he did as well as anyone could have hoped with all the odds stacked against him, but they won't see it that way.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

The Iron Cage incident was probably the tipping point, where Dorn slid in the pecking order as Guiliman had to bail him out, and likely feeling indebted to him.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Think about it this way though. Dorn was the defender of Terra, the Emperors Praetorian. His job to the eyes of everyone was to defend Terra and the Emperor. To the eyes of everyone else that isn't smart enough or in a position to know better, Dorn failed. In their eyes Horus ravaged Terra, Dorn allowed Fulgrim and the Emperors Children to terrorize and do....things to the civilian populace and most of all, he let the Emperor become so catastrophically injured that he had to be interred upon the Golden Throne.
> 
> Now look at the others. Sanguinius, the Angel, the most beautiful looking of all the Primarchs and one of the most compassionate, people loved him before, then he martyrs himself for the Emperor, no doubt the story of him having crucially wounded Horus so the Emperor could defeat him having been spread by the propaganda machine.
> 
> ...


Sure but that would depend on what actually caused the retreat of the traitors; the fall of Horus or the Loyalist reinforcements actually meeting them on Terra and scarring them away. Again, I'd be more pissed off that the loyalists did not come back in time to save me, rather than throw cabage at the person that put his neck out to try and defend me. Did he fail..? Kind of, but at least I wouldn't hate someone for fighting for me.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

I seem to recall that the fists, fluffy wise, was so revered in the imperium, that few imperial organizations would willfully antagonize them. In particularilly hearing it mentioned during the age of apostasy.

According to Lexicanum, Guiliman took advantage of Dorn's absence in hunting traitors to sneak in all his envisioned changes.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Fists
* Horus Heresy Aftermath*

* Dorn's Vengeance*

Rogal Dorn's grief was immense in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy. Until that point, Dorn had been true, noble and enduring, but now he became an avenging son dressed in the black of mourning. Whereas other Legions, such as the Ultramarines, dedicated themselves to rebuilding the Imperium, the Imperial Fists launched a crusade against the Traitor Legions, hunting them down and levelling fortress after fortress. Yet the Legion was still cognisant of its broader role as it lent itself to direct calls for assistance by Imperial worlds and institutions more so than other Legions during this period. Nonetheless, Dorn was absent from the highest councils of the Imperium until he returned to Terra upon being summoned by Roboute Guilliman to be presented with the Codex Astartes.[2c] 
* Codex Astartes Crisis*

Dorn initially rejected the Codex Astartes and enmity developed between him and Guilliman. Dorn called Guilliman a coward, citing his lack of participation in the defense of the Imperial Palace. Guilliman accused Dorn of being a traitor for refusing the Codex. This enmity quickly involved other Space Marine Legions and a rift developed, Leman Russ of the Space Wolves stood by the Imperial Fists, while Jaghatai Khan of the White Scars and Corax of the Raven Guard supported the Ultramarines. A second civil war appeared likely when the Imperial Fists strike cruiser _Terrible Angel_ was fired upon by the Imperial Navy in connection with Codex crisis.[15a] However, Dorn ultimately relented after spending seven days meditating in the pain glove. There, he concluded that the Legion could no longer serve the Emperor who had been and must serve the Emperor who was, which involved accepting the new order of which the Codex was a part.[2c]


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

It seems that you are referring to time, basically washing away the Imperialistic vision of Dorn as a Hero. That is also very probable. Essentially, those who saw Dorn for what he did died, and then it became a finger pointing game to what Dorn did after.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Again that's after the Heresy. Before that the Astartes Legions were the main armed forces of the Imperium and much of the rest were basically satellite forces to them. Astartes Commanders led not just their fellow SM but led the Fleets that carried their forces and were the overall commanders the Imperial Army Regiments accompanying them. Essentially in 30K the Primarchs and the Astartes were commanding much of the Imperium's military might.


I don't see your interpretation of the 30k forces held out necessarily. I've never seen a matrix of the various Crusade fleets, but there are seemingly thousands or perhaps hundreds of them going in all directions. Fluff wise, it's demonstrated in multiple HH books (Legion, Prospero Burns, First Heretic, etc.) that Astares play supporting roles in the Crusade fleets, tackling the toughest jobs that the Imperial Army/Fleet can't or has already failed at. 

I would agree that when a Primarch is leading a fleet, he's da man, but even in Legion you see Alpharious acquiescing to The Lord Commander of the fleet, at least in public. In Prospero Burns, we get a first-hand account from one of the fleet commanders that they only call in the Astares when in utmost need, and then it's not an assigned unit, but whichever Legion is the closest at the time of the call. Finally, in First Heretic, a Word Bearers company, not even chapter, is the only Astares unit assigned to a whole crusade fleet. Their fleet commander calls during their temporary reassignment not because they've lost their Astares commanders, but because they've encountered a specific tactical situation that the Astares would have no problem dealing with.

I you have countering examples, I'd appreciate hearing where they're from so I can get those books to read.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> We're getting into the nuances of military structure at this point. Even is you argue that he was only a High Lord of Terra and not Lord Commander of the Imperium, Roboute Guilliman claimed - and was granted, by the authorities of the Imperium - administrative authority over the remaining Legiones Astartes, the Imperial Army, and the Imperial Navy. This would make him akin to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff of the United States military, who is responsible for the training, equipping, and administrative needs of the nation's armed forces (but separate from combatant commanders - those generals who are responsible for conducting a war, such as Afghanistan or Iraq).


Forgive my ignorance of how the military is structured and defined but...

From my brief bit of research (and brief as in like 30 seconds), you're making a comparison between the Joint Chief of Staff (JCoS) and Guilliman that don't necessarily match.

Yes, both Guilliman and JCoS have the responsibility of, per their website, " recruit, organize, supply, equip, train, service, mobilize, demobilize, administer" their respective forces. 

The kicker is that a JCoS is ALSO the senior military commander of their respective branch. That means they have a lot of clout within their own force. We don't necessarily know that Guilliman was given such a power. We don't know if Guilliman was given total control of all armed forces.

And that's the point we're trying to argue, I think. Just because he and the JCoS share some common responsibilities doesn't mean they share _all_ their responsibilities.

I'd also like to chime in that even if he had such a power on paper, Guilliman would probably not have been able to rein in his more stubborn brothers.

Look at Dorn and the Iron Cage incident. Guilliman explicitly told Dorn not to go, but Dorn just flipped him the bird and went on his merry way. From the Index Astartes, "Roboute Guilliman pleaded with Dorn to let him help but as Perturabo planned, Dorn was arrogant enough to undertake the mission alone."

Would Dorn have listened to Guilliman in a more common matter (say helping to repulse an incursion of Ork raiders)? Probably. But that doesn't really matter. What matters is whether a subordinate is willing to obey orders under moments of duress. Clearly Dorn, if Guilliman was placed above him, would not.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

One interesting point to bring up post heresy and his role as lord commander of the Imperium. Clearly his stint with Imperium Secundus did not damage his rep in any major ways with the involved primarchs, or there was some rather efficient rug lifting and sweeping involved. After all the whole deal is called the Unremembered Empire, implying all what happened about it got hidden away. As I see it to not damage the rep of Guiliman as he went to pick up the pieces of the imperium and put it back together, as the high lords realized the logistics master was the only one with the clout for the job whom was left.

Then one can wonder, if the other high lords because of the Imperium Secundus eventually thought Guiliman to be a man with a bit too many plans and amibitions, and leaked the information to Fulgrim, effectively removing him from play and putting the rule of the imperium entirely in the hand of mortals. Once it had been secured from the aftermath of the Horus Heresy.


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