# Does 40k fluff need a drastic change?



## Angelus Censura (Oct 11, 2010)

Currently, the Horus Heresy has been a big deal, with the Black Library books and the releases of the FW armour kits, as well as this new Badab War and such. However, does anyone else think that something drastic needs to happen in the present to spice things up a bit, rather than GW focusing primarily on the past? I'm thinking that GW needs to come out with an "expansion" if you will, some new fluff that turns imperialist against imperialist, traitor against traitor, has the Chaos gods going at it, the Emperor bites the dust, *something *that creates cool new fluff and possibilites for the game in general. 



Comments/ideas? Is everyone fine with hows things are, or do you think something needs to change to spice up the game a bit more?


Just seems to me that all the topics are about the usually bullshit - the Primarchs, the Heresy, the _*past*_ of 40k :boredom:. What would you like to see in the future of 40k, and I mean fluff wise, not sweet new minis for your supposed "outdated" armies. 


Personally - from reading a few other forumns on various websites, the common complaint is that Tau needs a re-vamp, and Necrons need more fluff/personality. Particular races and armies aside, what would you realistically like to see for the future of the 40k universe as a whole?


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## Ordo epitaphiorum (Nov 13, 2010)

I would love to see the Mechanicum and the Imperium split. I have no clue what would happen, but the Mechanicum would still be able to travel around the galaxy and search for knowledge, while the Imperium is like a fish on dry ground, it's still there but it's losing it's power.

Also, we have to "nerf" alot of races. There are still "we will kill you all and you can't stop us"-Races like the Nids or, forgive me, Necrons (if they finally awake).

The resoultion is simple: Let the Emperor die. We can only imagine the possibilities of such a drastic fluffchange. For the problems I just talked about:
A crack in the hivemind of the Tyranids by the earthshattering power of the birth of a new god.
New ways of traveling for the Imperium, but not in such a large scale as "I move my moon-large spaceship through the galaxy in two seconds", something like a webway in small.
The return of the Void Dragon on Mars, adopting the Machanicum as its own "necron army", inventing better shields and navigation for warpships (something like Null Field shields) so they can still connect their worlds.

I guess the Split of Imperium and Mechanicum would be very interesting.


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## Angelus Censura (Oct 11, 2010)

It would also open up the possibility of a Mechanicum style "Heresy". The BL could create a series on the Mechanicum, further introducing main characters, the beginnings and origins of the Mechanicum, their beliefs, and so on. From there, a huge rift could occur between Mechanicum cults, causing some to worship a darker entity (not a Chaos god, all that would do is create another chaos army and we would be repeating the same old fluff). However, a new warp god, in the form of a dark Machine spirit, could be introduced. The Mechanicum could start worshipping this entity, being labeled heretics by the Inquisition in the process. This creates a split between the Mechanicum and the Imperium, open up possibilities for modeling, and cripples the Imperium a little bit. In turn, the xenos become more powerful, as they haven't been shown much love in comparison to the SM, the Necrons finally wake up but aren't as unstopable as they have been portrayed (otherwise they would just wipe everything out), and Chaos would most likely just remain Chaos, but everything wouldn't be about the Heresy anymore. Quite honestly, I am getting pretty tired of the Heresy and am in need of something new and fresh.


To elaborate on the creation of a Machine Spirit 'god' - if it is possible for entities to become manifested in the Warp due to the beliefs of others as well as emotions and forms of worship, why then is there not an actual Machine Spirit that has been manifested in the Warp due to the immensely strong beliefs and worship of the Mechanicum? (I read a thread a while back disputing the existance of an actual 'Machine Spirit', which is why I am assuming most believe there currently isn't one)


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

There is such a huge amount of history of the Imperium that hasn't been explored that we don't need to move into the future. A Mechanicus/Imperium split? It could already have happened somewhere, and it needn't have been something small and local; it might have taken in a whole Sector, maybe several.
All of the threats from Chaos? We don't know the half of what's been going on, the depredations and outrages, the victories and the desecrations, the power of the Chaos gods waxing and taking over new areas of Imperial space.
The Necrons will have been getting more and more active throughout the galaxy and it would be cool to see what has been going on. Doubtless there are places where some of the more advanced stuff has been waking up, but noone knows about it because everyone who was there to see it is dead.
The Tau expansions could be looked at in more detail, maybe a good look at the First Sphere Expansion, looking at the nascent Empire's first steps into the galactic community.
For the Eldar, of both stripes, have got so much seperate and shared history. The Craftworlds, the Kabals, the Exodite worlds and Corsairs, the fighting with each other and other (to them) Xenos races.
Just to give the dead horse a final whack, I'm just saying that pushing into the future isn't the answer it might first appear to be. Anything that we could think of has probably happened somewhere in the galaxy (there are doubtless Imperial worlds where the population are convinced that the God-Emperor is already dead, for whatever reason); even though it might be set in the past, when we explore it for the first time it will still feel new and exciting without the worry that the whole setting will be spoiled by a poorly thought-out foray into M42. And, doubtless, such a foray wouldn't be well received; no matter how many like it there will be more who don't, and that is the case no matter what direction is taken.

GFP


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## Cowlicker16 (Dec 7, 2010)

Personally I think we need to move more towards the end-game. Not saying we need to finalize everything but give us more to work with; Does Abaddon actually get anywhere? Which alien species starts getting the upper hand? 

Just some more details so we can get a feel for what is going to happen


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

40K hasn't moved past the present time in 20 something years, it's just fine the way it is. It's something that seems to have been lost from the game recently but the whole idea of leaving things fairly open is for players to fill in the blanks. 
If you want to know what happens when the Golden Throne fails, play it out with your mates, decide which faction would side with which and fight it out. 
If you want to see what happens if the 13th Black Crusade makes it past Cadia then play it out with the relevant factions and see where things take you. 
Players should be able to think these things out for themselves instead of needing to be spoon fed fluff from GW. 

To me it's what games like Apoc and Planet Strike are there for, play out the big stories and instead of "Must win, Must WIN!!!" just see where things go.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> There is such a huge amount of history of the Imperium that hasn't been explored that we don't need to move into the future. A Mechanicus/Imperium split? It could already have happened somewhere, and it needn't have been something small and local; it might have taken in a whole Sector, maybe several.
> All of the threats from Chaos? We don't know the half of what's been going on, the depredations and outrages, the victories and the desecrations, the power of the Chaos gods waxing and taking over new areas of Imperial space.
> The Necrons will have been getting more and more active throughout the galaxy and it would be cool to see what has been going on. Doubtless there are places where some of the more advanced stuff has been waking up, but noone knows about it because everyone who was there to see it is dead.
> The Tau expansions could be looked at in more detail, maybe a good look at the First Sphere Expansion, looking at the nascent Empire's first steps into the galactic community.
> ...





normtheunsavoury said:


> Players should be able to think these things out for themselves instead of needing to be spoon fed fluff from GW.


:goodpost:

Totally agree with _Penguin_ and _Norm_. We don't need to move into the future when there are (at least) 10,000 years of almost totally unexplored background material to draw upon. GW has placed the 40k universe on a precipice at 999999.M41. The background simply *cannot* move forward without major reforms and changes occuring, and it's obvious they don't want to do that. 40k is a setting not a progressional storyline, and it always has been. The quicker people accept that, the more I think they will get from the lore and background material.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

IMO it's down to the rise in competitive gaming, narrative play has been pushed out of the game to a degree. 
I'm not knocking competitive or tournament play, it has a place and does wonders to keep the hobby going, I also agree that GW should put more into it. But, not at the expense of what first brought me into gaming from playing D&D and WHFRP.

I'll use my own (sort of) Chapter as an example, in their background fluff I have them coming into direct conflict with the Blood Angels on a couple of occasions. I could read through mountains of books trying to find a way to bring the two Chapters together or I could just come up with the ideas myself. 
So, who won? That's where the table top comes in, you set up a scenario and you pit the Knights Of Blood against the Blood Angels and see what happens. If the BA player wins then that's what gets written into the fluff, if my Chapter wins then that goes in and I make my next decision from there. 

The same goes for exploring existing fluff, if you want to know what your IG regiment did during the Badab war then play it out and write it into the regiment's history that they managed to defend a point against the Red Corsairs for X amount of time until reinforcements arrived from (Insert name). 

What happened with the CSM during the Age Of Apostasy, don't know? Grab a few of your Iron Warriors and get to finding out. 
Adding a narrative to your games will add so much to them rather than just picking a killer list that can trump any other. 

Now I'm going to need to have a lie down, I've come over all Jervis Johnson and feel dirty!


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## Harriticus (Nov 10, 2010)

Re-introducing the Interex into the Galaxy could be fun. Having another human faction besides the Imperium to play, and one that isn't demented and backwards. I like the idea of the Interex desperately fighting wars of survival against the Imperium to retain their modern and civilized society.


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## Hooobit (Dec 5, 2010)

I think that the current fluff looking back at the previous history of the Imperium is a good thing and very much so agree with what most people are saying about "creating your own fluff through gaming"

However, I do think that some of the aspects of the current imperium has become stale.
The current races that can be use either have massive amounts of depth and character or are a bit blank (Tau and Necrons). I think that GW would actually benefit from progressing the story a bit, see what happens to the Emperah (does he stay in the comfy chair, does he die? or does he do something else), whats the story with the remaining primarchs?, do the Tau become big players in the galaxy?, does astrubel vect get a puppy?. I think that they should address some of the stuff that they have just left hanging but not all of it, most of the races (except maybe necrons and Nids) could do with a Tech revamp and some new faces.

I really do believe that they need to progress but to fast, a little bit here and there. The big issue that GW has is that they left the story in such a Rut that in order to progress it they will need to have a big push beacuse most of the current races are all interlocked. If one takes a hit then the others would probably take advantage of that.

A series of tourney maybe, to decide the progression of the current state of affairs (once the new codex's for the most needy come out), make a big event of it, final battle some knda showdown between the forces of Mankind vs the forces of chaos at earth, teying to finally peg the emperor outright.

Or at least, thats what I'd be pushing for if I worked for GW.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

In short the fluff does need to change.

Why? Well because I find a lot of fluff, especially current fluff to be very boring. How so? Let me do some splainin'

1. A lot of fluff is predictable and there is hardly any change. For example literally every marine fluff I set eyes on has the traditional story of a small number of space marines descend on planet full of enemies and narrowly win by the skin of their teeth and their lethal discipline. Or Tyranids where every hive fleet invades the galaxy, eats some planets, gets involved in a huge space fight and is defeated whilst inflicting serious losses on the opposition.

2. There are hadly any original sotries about. Recently I heard from a friend who is a Dark Eldar player that there is a piece of fluff in the new codex that has a fleet of marine ships arrive in Commoragh and by the end they are sat in the gladiator basement (or somewhere similar) and are practically crapping themselves. I like this example of fluff because not only do the bad guys win but because it goes against the general story of every Space Marine engagement. Not saying every fluff has to be like this but throw something out every once and again that really surprises everyone. I doubt I would be the only one surprised if I read a piece of fluff about the Tyranids invading a planet and getting absolutely slaughtered by a big macho race that just ooze out the "mess with us and you die!" personality.

3. Some fluff falls down in different ways. Another example of the Dark Eldar book shows the Dark Eldar saving Iyanden after it is attacked shortly after the Tyranids of Hive Fleet Kraken. The content of the story does not irk me but the idea of cramming another attack against an Eldar craftworld, especially the same one that has never been recorded before, that has just left one war is just cramming too much stuff in a short period of time. There is plenty of holes in the past to fill in so have a go at that.

4. Finally I think that too much fluff comes from one point of view. The Imperium's. I get that GW want to support them more than others becuase they are human and they are the good guys but for once I want to read an army codex that explains it all from their point of view, not one from a faggin Imperial analyzer of such. I want something like an Eldar codex where the Eldar explain the importance of runes rather than a human who has lived with them a short time. Is that too much to ask sometime? Who knows some of the fluff might be explained better looking through the eyes of another person or alien rather than the Imperium.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

You all know my opinion on Matt Ward's fluff.

But apart from that, I don't know a lot of fluff that needs to be expanded on or changed. GW has purposefully left the door open to us on a lot of things; were things all hunky-dory between the Imperial forces throughout the whole Damocles Crusade, or was there building tension when they got dragged down into a stalemate at Dal'yth? When did the other foundings occur (22nd, 23rd, 24th, 25th, etc)? And what happened to the Ultramarines after the second founding? Surely they didn't just sit on their ass and be showered in praise until M41? All of these are questions we could answer on our own as we write up homebrew fluff for our armies.


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## Harriticus (Nov 10, 2010)

Stephen_Newman said:


> 2. There are hadly any original sotries about. Recently I heard from a friend who is a Dark Eldar player that there is a piece of fluff in the new codex that has a fleet of marine ships arrive in Commoragh and by the end they are sat in the gladiator basement (or somewhere similar) and are practically crapping themselves. I like this example of fluff because not only do the bad guys win but because it goes against the general story of every Space Marine engagement. Not saying every fluff has to be like this but throw something out every once and again that really surprises everyone. I doubt I would be the only one surprised if I read a piece of fluff about the Tyranids invading a planet and getting absolutely slaughtered by a big macho race that just ooze out the "mess with us and you die!" personality.


Didn't quite go this way from what I read in the codex. The Dark Eldar actually capture a Space Marine Strike Cruiser then spend days trying to capture the Marines within, failing to do so and taking heavy losses. By that point 24 Strike Cruisers and a Battle Barge from 3 chapters arrive over Commoragh in a rescue operation. Commoragh takes a beating and almost all of its ruling families are killed (which allows Vect to rise to power). The SM's do take heavy losses and were on the verge of being overrun. However by that point they had freed the captured cruiser, most of the SM's on the ground teleport away, and the fleet escapes.

Sounds like the Imperium achieved its objectives to me. Though Vect did as well because he planned the entire thing to eliminate rivals in Commoragh.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Stephen_Newman said:


> In short the fluff does need to change.
> 
> Why? Well because I find a lot of fluff, especially current fluff to be very boring. How so? Let me do some splainin'
> 
> 1. A lot of fluff is predictable and there is hardly any change. For example literally every marine fluff I set eyes on has the traditional story of a small number of space marines descend on planet full of enemies and narrowly win by the skin of their teeth and their lethal discipline. Or Tyranids where every hive fleet invades the galaxy, eats some planets, gets involved in a huge space fight and is defeated whilst inflicting serious losses on the opposition.


But that's what the Space Marines do, it's the way they operate. If you don't like it don't play as them. SM are the uber elite of 40K, they don't get bogged down in lengthy wars of attrition they swoop in, kick arse and fuck off again. 
If you have a problem, and if you can find them maybe you can hire the 
A(startes) Team!



Stephen_Newman said:


> 4. Finally I think that too much fluff comes from one point of view. The Imperium's. I get that GW want to support them more than others becuase they are human and they are the good guys but for once I want to read an army codex that explains it all from their point of view, not one from a faggin Imperial analyzer of such. I want something like an Eldar codex where the Eldar explain the importance of runes rather than a human who has lived with them a short time. Is that too much to ask sometime? Who knows some of the fluff might be explained better looking through the eyes of another person or alien rather than the Imperium.


It is nearly impossible to write fluff from any other point of view, how would you even start writing fluff from a Necron or Tyranid point of view?
The Eldar are written as being enigmatic at best, downright deceitful at worst but their motives are way beyond human comprehension. The same goes for Chaos, they're Gods, there is no way to explain things from their point of view. 
CSM are getting a little more attention, but they are human, they have the same aspirations and desires as us (warped and extreme versions yes, essentially the same though)


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## comrade (Jun 30, 2008)

well.... explaining from an ork point of view will be extremely easy...The next ork codex would contain like 1 page of fluff.


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## Harriticus (Nov 10, 2010)

comrade said:


> well.... explaining from an ork point of view will be extremely easy...The next ork codex would contain like 1 page of fluff.


I find that Orkish views on the galaxy are actually quite insightful:


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## comrade (Jun 30, 2008)

Harriticus said:


> I find that Orkish views on the galaxy are actually quite insightful:


now.... did I ever say that they didn't make sense? :victory:


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

5th edition Ork Dex, done!


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## Hooobit (Dec 5, 2010)

That was strangely arousing........


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## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

I think the problem is that if you're going to do something significant with the fluff, it's got to be something far more intense and expansive than just another war or just another new race. 

That, in turn, leads to the real danger of 40k jumping the shark. It also would threaten to seriously throw the balance between codices out the window (such as it is.)

What sorts of massive fluff changes would work? The Emperor finally dying? Bye bye Astronomican and with it the ability for Imperial ships to navigate. That'll put an end to the question of whether GW should bother updating Sisters of Battle or Black Templars, wouldn't it? 

Perhaps the Eldar should start colonizing worlds and try to regain their strength as a race? Open war with the Imperium would be the result, and sayonara to the one factor that keeps such an ancient and advanced race in check. 

I fear that a major change in the 40k fluff could do more harm than good unless GW carried it off VERY VERY well. 

How's your faith in that?


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## Capt.Al'rahhem (Jan 24, 2009)

I agree wholeheartly with GFP, norm & CotE, which places me firmly in the NO catagory.

The is pleantly of History & Space to tell stories for 1,000 years. They'll never scratch the surface of all the 40k universe holds. They don't need to add more, ever. Epic changes would never be done well enough and they could never satisfy everybody.

As for personaly army Fluff, you can do whatever you want and it'd probably make sence somewhere in the universe. You can make your own planet, your own chapter, your own empire and it wouldn't be outta place. 

Do you really want GW to have the Imperium fall? How about the Eldar races finally dieing off? How about Choas losing? Ect, ect. Somebody will always be screwed & unhappy that their side lost or was destroyed. They way it stands everyone is fighting, everyone wins sometimes and loses others. Just like it plays out on the TT.

If you want the Imperium to end, play it out. If you want Chaos to spearhead a crusade towards Terra, play it out. You & your local groups fluff doesn't have to be just like the supposed "cannon" fluff. You can do whatever you want and there's the time & space in the universe to do it.

Stop expecting GW to spoon feed you plots, make your own. That's the beauty & glory of a fictional game universe. Make it what you want it to be & guess what you can't be "wrong".


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

For the love of god, they have 10,000 years of emptiness in the background, so let them explore that before going anywhere...


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

The same sort of pointless arguments seem to come up in rules discussions as well.
"I hate the new CSM Dex, they completely fucked my army!"
Well, in that case stick to the last one, as long as it's not tournament play I really can't see it as being a problem. Gamers seem to have lost a great deal of ability to think for themselves right across the board. If you want to have some IG support for your Salamanders then do it, as long as you have a good enough reason for it and are not doing anything game breaking then what's the problem? 
Gamers have fallen into the trap of thinking everything in the rule book is unbreakable, cast in stone holy law. It's not!

The same goes for fluff, if you can think of it then it has probably happened somewhere at some time (even Blood Angels and Necrons calling off hostilities for a bit!) but the moment anything like this gets mentioned it's shouted down.
We pay far too much money on this hobby to have how it should or shouldn't be played dictated to us as well. If you and your mates are all happy with a rule change then do it and enjoy the games even more as a result.


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## Angelus Censura (Oct 11, 2010)

I'd just like to see something a little more "official" than some homebrewn fluff a few buddies and I cooked up in the garage. The 10,000 years of unexplored fluff didn't occur to me, but either way, I'd like to see something drastic happen. Even if something drastic happened in the past 10,000 years of fluff, I just want to see something official and new that would open up new possibilities. Maybe a new scenario like the Eye of Terror - that one opened up all sorts of opportunities for making your own fluff, as well as converting and army building.


The Badab war scenario looks cool - just don't have a couple hundred dollars sitting around to blow on FW stuff...


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

So you want a huge shift in current fluff to jazz things up a bit but you don't want to spend any money on the new stuff they release as a result, there's no pleasing some people!


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

What i think the one thing that the 40k universe is missing is a sort of middle ground. 

I mean somewhere for renegades of any race to go, like the maelstrom but without the chaos aspect. Like a place where all outcasts can gather and where any team can get alot of mercenaries, but not in any way linked to chaos which is pretty much the only way for renegades to survive these days. 

Other races would not attack this place simply because it would be so immense and full of soldiers it would be near impossible to take out without horrendous losses. 

I know there are many flaws with this idea but i think it would be worth exploring.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

If it were my decision. I'd like to see this happen:

*The Emperor Lives!* - Not to crush the dreams of our esteemed Chaos-fanatics, but lets say he doesn't die. Lets say in fact, the Emperor is corrupted, finally, as the last moments before the Golden Throne the Emperor's desire to save Humanity loosens his will just enough for the Dark Gods to corrupt his soul, small mind you, but corrupt it nontheless. As the Golden Throne is terminated, the Emperor is reborn, and walks amongst men once more. The shock and awe of it would send a shockwave threw the Imperium.

The Emperor is, however, not entirely sane. His actions are absolutely more dark and terrifying than he is portrayed. He speaks of a weak, decadent Imperium, one in need of cleansing. This could start a whole new sub-plot to the Imperium as a whole. The Ecclesiarchy and Inqusition, along with the fanatical Sisters of Battle, eagerly rush to head the call of their God-Emperor and begin to burn any world not deemed fit by the Lord of Mankind. 

Despite their absolute loyalty, some members of all the Imperium's factions begin to see the perverse nature the Emperor has taken. Perhaps some fluff hinting that a member of the Adeptus Custodes learns of the Emperor's taint. While outright rebellion will not work, the secret movements within the Imperium by those who wish to now kill their beloved Emperor, believing it would be hit will if he were in the right mind, plot in the shadows. This could actually lead to some very interesting fluff regarding the Alpha Legion who may want to get involved. 

This could also be done by the Emperor who finally proclaims that he is, in fact, the Machine-God as well. As the same time the Dragon awakens and counters this claim.


*The Hive Mind is Not as One* - The Emperor's Rebirth causes a massive psyker-based shockwave from the Astronomican, the Tyranid's 'porch light' suddenly became a bug-zapper and the Hive Mind is fractured. This occurs at the very moment the massive, true Tyranid fleet arrives, and now Ultima Segmentum has become a massive frenzy of various armies fighting. As the Tyranid Hive Fleet splinters and attacks everything, including itself, pockets of Imperial resistance remain while Ork Empires are born in the ashes of the Imperium's eastern fringes. Perhaps an Eldar Craftworld dies in the process?


*Lorgar the Warmaster* - Lets face it, during the 13th Black Crusade eventually fails. As Abaddon returns to the Eye of Terror he is confronted by the monster that is Lorgar the Prophet. Lorgar's forces scatter the Black Legion to the depths of the Eye of Terror and mortally wounds Abaddon. Now with the Word Bearer warbands slowly coming together, and with a agreement made with Fabius Bile, Lorgar declares himself Warmaster of the Chaos Imperium and waits. The Eye of Terror, in all the hell that is choking the Galaxy, is quite, at least on the Materium's side. Within the Eye, Lorgar is forced to fight a desperate and bitter Abaddon who wages a war that he ultimately cannot win, as more and more of the Black Legion voluntarily abandon the former Warmaster and openly join the Word Bearers -- threatening to earse the Black Legion from history. 


Thats all I can think of off the top of my head.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

normtheunsavoury said:


> It is nearly impossible to write fluff from any other point of view, how would you even start writing fluff from a Necron or Tyranid point of view?


I disagree with you. Check this out. And then this. It`s not that hard, it`s just so few are willing to try. 



cegorach said:


> What i think the one thing that the 40k universe is missing is a sort of middle ground.
> 
> I mean somewhere for renegades of any race to go, like the maelstrom but without the chaos aspect. Like a place where all outcasts can gather and where any team can get alot of mercenaries, but not in any way linked to chaos which is pretty much the only way for renegades to survive these days.
> 
> ...


These places kind of already exist. In the Eisenhorn and Ravenor books you will read about places that are "off them map" so to speak, where xeno and human trade with one another and mercenaries find work.

Remember the cantina scene from the original Star Wars film? Those kinds of places do exist, there`s just less focus on them because 40k is supposed to be a Grim and Dark War story. :grin:


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

BlackGuard said:


> If it were my decision. I'd like to see this happen:
> 
> *The Emperor Lives!* - Not to crush the dreams of our esteemed Chaos-fanatics, but lets say he doesn't die. Lets say in fact, the Emperor is corrupted, finally, as the last moments before the Golden Throne the Emperor's desire to save Humanity loosens his will just enough for the Dark Gods to corrupt his soul, small mind you, but corrupt it nontheless. As the Golden Throne is terminated, the Emperor is reborn, and walks amongst men once more. The shock and awe of it would send a shockwave threw the Imperium.
> 
> ...


No real change there then, the Emperor was a complete lunatic before he was placed on the Golden Throne, obsessed by cleansing the galaxy of impurity. Different factions withing the Inquisition are already fighting it out over the future of the Imperium along with the Eclesiarchy and the High Lords of Terra. The only real change here is that the Emperor is up and around again, which would be game breaking. 



BlackGuard said:


> This could also be done by the Emperor who finally proclaims that he is, in fact, the Machine-God as well. As the same time the Dragon awakens and counters this claim.


The Emperor has already proclaimed himself the Machine God, that's how he got Mars to join the Imperium in the first place, the sneaky but was how he set the whole thing up so he could be the Machine God.



BlackGuard said:


> *The Hive Mind is Not as One* - The Emperor's Rebirth causes a massive psyker-based shockwave from the Astronomican, the Tyranid's 'porch light' suddenly became a bug-zapper and the Hive Mind is fractured. This occurs at the very moment the massive, true Tyranid fleet arrives, and now Ultima Segmentum has become a massive frenzy of various armies fighting. As the Tyranid Hive Fleet splinters and attacks everything, including itself, pockets of Imperial resistance remain while Ork Empires are born in the ashes of the Imperium's eastern fringes. Perhaps an Eldar Craftworld dies in the process?


GW, above all other things, is a business. They have caused enough bad feeling by killing stuff off in the past. They're not going to wipe out an entire Craft World, purely because the nerd rage that would incur would destroy them and most of the western world. 




BlackGuard said:


> *Lorgar the Warmaster* - Lets face it, during the 13th Black Crusade eventually fails. As Abaddon returns to the Eye of Terror he is confronted by the monster that is Lorgar the Prophet. Lorgar's forces scatter the Black Legion to the depths of the Eye of Terror and mortally wounds Abaddon. Now with the Word Bearer warbands slowly coming together, and with a agreement made with Fabius Bile, Lorgar declares himself Warmaster of the Chaos Imperium and waits. The Eye of Terror, in all the hell that is choking the Galaxy, is quite, at least on the Materium's side. Within the Eye, Lorgar is forced to fight a desperate and bitter Abaddon who wages a war that he ultimately cannot win, as more and more of the Black Legion voluntarily abandon the former Warmaster and openly join the Word Bearers -- threatening to earse the Black Legion from history.
> 
> 
> Thats all I can think of off the top of my head.


This is assuming that Abaddon has in some way lost the favour of the Chaos Gods, which he hasn't. The common mistake that seems to be made by a lot of people is that Chaos wants to destroy the Imperium, IMO nothing could be further from the truth. 
Over the course of 13 Black Crusades Abaddon must have done something right or he would be a spawn by now. The Chaos Gods like things the way they are, the Empire crapping it and feeding them all the emotion they need to keep the Empire crapping it. 
Many of the forces within the EOT will remember the Heresy first hand, they were there and they know the truth about Lorgar. He was never a warrior and as such he would have a bitch of a time trying to unite the forces of Chaos under his rule (Daemon or not). If Lorgar was in a position to lead the forces of Chaos he would have led the Heresy but he knew then and I would guess he still knows now that he is not the man for the job. 
You also have to take into account that the Black Legion is not just made up of the former Luna Wolves, it is HUGE. They re bolstered by renegades from all across the EOT and the Imperium. The Black Legion is too big and holds too much influence for the Word Bearers to take control.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> I disagree with you. Check this out. And then this. It`s not that hard, it`s just so few are willing to try.


Sorry, couldn't be arsed with the RP thread, it's just not my cup of tea but I read the Fanfic. It's still written from a human perspective, it may well be about Necrons but (from skimming it) it's set before they became necrons and while they still seemed to have very human feelings and emotions.

When writing stories there needs to be a point of reference, something the reader and writer can associate with and empathise with, writing things from a truly Necron point of view is possible but whether or not it's something you want to read is an entirely different thing. 
Necrons are cold, heartless killing machines with almost no self awareness other than an all consuming hatred of life. 

So, a Necron Dex written from their point of view would be some stats and FOC stuff then a page of "Woke up killed stuff went back to sleep"

With the Tyranids the most you can hope to do is give them some form of humanity which would completely destroy what they represent as a race in 40K. Anthropomorphic Tyranids would be pointless, the whole idea revolves around them being unknowably alien in every aspect, they live to consume, nothing more. 

So, unless you want to impose humanity upon a non human subject you need to write from another point of view. 

Anther way of putting it, and a way to maybe test your writing skills (I will go back and read the story properly, it's pretty good!:so_happy is write a story about a dog, from the dogs point of view and see if you can do it without putting a single human emotion or motivation into it. If you can do it and still present a readable and compelling story then I will accept defeat and take back what I've said.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The Rp was written from a third person nid perspective, it`s not perfect but I think it worked. 

The fic is generally a humanistic view at the moment, but bear in mind that the flow of the plot means he will become a necron shortly. I`m not gonna rush ahead for your benefit, but if you`re willing to follow it over the next couple of months or whatever then you`ll see. 

Comparing a nid`s view to that of a dog won`t work either, because a dog is not on the same level of sentience as a xeno.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

No way, don't rush it on my account, it's coming along nicely!

What I meant by the dog comparison was not that a dog thinks like a Nid. It was an example of something that would be near impossible to write without anthropomorphising the subject matter (thats a really long word and I really do hope it means what I think it does!).
The same problem exists trying to write a convincing story from the point of view of something as alien to us as a Tyranid. We have no point of reference to even start with unless we mistakenly give the creature some form of humanity. 
I haven't read a massive amount about the Tyranids so I can't claim to be an expert (it's Chaos all the way for me!) but from what I have read the only true sentience or self awarenes that exists is the Hive Mind, the rest seem to be little more than *big* ants (in essence) they live to feed or carry out some other purpose for the benefit of the greater whole.


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

I always the characterization of such creatures as the tyranids as ants is wrong. They seem more like mind controlled slaves. If an ant queen dies, the hive will adjust and find a new queen, because the queen is just another part of the whole. An important part, but a part none the less. But when describing the tyranids, however, it seems the hive mind IS the tyranids. The tyranids have no thought beyond what the hive mind tells them to do, and without it, the tyranids would rampage. Just my two cents.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

normtheunsavoury said:


> No way, don't rush it on my account, it's coming along nicely!
> 
> What I meant by the dog comparison was not that a dog thinks like a Nid. It was an example of something that would be near impossible to write without anthropomorphising the subject matter (thats a really long word and I really do hope it means what I think it does!).
> The same problem exists trying to write a convincing story from the point of view of something as alien to us as a Tyranid. We have no point of reference to even start with unless we mistakenly give the creature some form of humanity.
> I haven't read a massive amount about the Tyranids so I can't claim to be an expert (it's Chaos all the way for me!) but from what I have read the only true sentience or self awarenes that exists is the Hive Mind, the rest seem to be little more than *big* ants (in essence) they live to feed or carry out some other purpose for the benefit of the greater whole.





xNoPityx said:


> I always the characterization of such creatures as the tyranids as ants is wrong. They seem more like mind controlled slaves. If an ant queen dies, the hive will adjust and find a new queen, because the queen is just another part of the whole. An important part, but a part none the less. But when describing the tyranids, however, it seems the hive mind IS the tyranids. The tyranids have no thought beyond what the hive mind tells them to do, and without it, the tyranids would rampage. Just my two cents.


Actually, you`re both wrong. The Hive Mind is a metaphysical presence. Each synapse creature is sentient, able to draw on the Hive collective psionic presence in order to co-ordinate their movements and control the lesser beings around them. 

The Norn Queen Commands the fleet, the Hive Tyrants command the swarms. Each synapse creature is able to make its own decisions based off what it knows and what knowledge it can further derivve from the Hive collective.

The Hive mind itself isn`t sentient. It just is, like an ever present driving force. It`s the creatures themselves that do the actual thinking.

That is why I felt it possible to conduct a tyranid Rp. By minimising the emotional content, and allowing a vague reason for what little there was, I was able to write from their view. It`s hardly impossible.


So back on topic, I`d like to see some more xeno fluff. If I can pull a half arsed yet workable story out my butthole, surely an accomplished writer could do better?

In my view, the War in Heaven or the Fall of the Necrontyr would both make a great series.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

well after reading your guys yah and nays as to moving forward id like to add my own piece and see what you think.

firstly id say that it would be good to move things forward slightly as after 20years it can seem very stagnant and while this really helps you get a sense of what the 40k universe is all about it kind of makes boring at the same time. 

now when i say move it forward i dont mean bring things to a head but try and make things abit more believeable. i think when 40k first started and you didnt have all the races you have now, the imperium as it is worked well but now they have added more races i think you need to alter the imperial set up slightly to sort of counter the effect having new enemies has on the setting. its only natural that having added adversity it would have a effect on the imperium but i suppose how they have added the necrons, tyranids and tau they have ironed out the need for great change to how the imperium works.

as with any battle you cant just stick to the same plan and it will go as you envisaged, you have to adapt to the changes and the same thing could be said with the imperium. it always seems crazy to me how a empire that is a shadow of what it could have been is so prevailent when beset by enemies on all sides. realistically how do they keep their borders relativly unchanged for 10000 years? its not possible!

would it be unreasonable to see changes to represent the state of the imperium as it is percieved and how it really is. by this i mean, if they are in such a sorry state and beset by enemies on all sides, could we not see more of the empire crumble and get taken over or if they are not really as bad as what they seem couldnt we see say a new crusade to say wipe out the tau or orks once and for all instead of just getting into all these stalemates all the time.

now i know alot bores down to how it effects the playing of tabletop but not every fan is into table top and the ones who read the novels only are sort of stifled by this factor. yes we get some great novels but the core of them all doesnt really come from a progression into betterment of the greater story. for instance the gaunts ghosts novels show us a side of the sabbat worlds crusades but overall that set of stories only at the end effects a small sector of space. 

why not produce a series that like that but on a greater scale that will eventually have great ramifications on the imperium but still keep people buying the models. could you see chaos finally take cadia once and for all or maybe see the tau make a great push for dominance over ultramar or even like someone said before maybe have the eldar take a section of the imperium and found a new mini empire of their own. that sort of thing wouldnt effect the sales of models but would refresh the plot without having a negative impact on the fluff in general.


now when its comes down to the emperor and the primarchs you will always have a debate if bringing them back is a good idea and if it can actually be done.

now for me i think they dont NEED to bring the emperor back and maybe with him being on the throne and possibly gaining more power from being worshipped it would be hard to bring him back. but if thats not the case and its just really the issue on how he would take to being worshipped as a god well maybe the answer would be for him to embrace it.

maybe he could look at it as he tried to ban worship to stop chaos and the knowledge of chaos, it didnt work and mankind and maybe every being in the galaxy has an ingrained need for faith and worship of a icon. theres nothing stopping them carrying on with the imperial cult and having their god amongst them, the eldar had such things so it not unheard of in 40k universe. i would say that having him as a all powerful being wouldnt fit well really into the whole story as it would unbalance everything and create problems but maybe with c'tan on the loose and possible superhiveminds incoming then the need for the imperium having their own super character is a must.

this leads me on to the primarchs. i dont think having any of the primarchs back would be negative, maybe some would be harder in involve than others due to their personality and nature or even backstories but none would be impossible to add back into the fold. id say that maybe vulkan would be the best one to return as we know next to nothing about him so his fluff could be weaved to fit around the 40k universe the best. 

and as for how they would react to how the imperium is set up and ran now, well a primarch wouldnt need to come back and create trouble because things arent what 30k imperium was like. he would understand it has been 10k years since the emperor was around to guide them, that normal men have had to decide on how the human race gets by and really they havent done a bad job of things to be honest. the imperium still exists, most of mankind live without xeno/chaos oppression and while the emperor didnt want to be worshipped as a god the fact worshipping him as been the single most important thing thats kept mankind together as a race and id say a primarch could understand this fact too.

but i think the good thing about the return of a primarch is that we already know what power he has, we know he is not of godly powers like what we might think the emperor has. the fact a primarch is just the best warrior and military mind in the galaxy and not someone we should expect to conquer vast armies with a thought helps keeps a good balance to any situation they find themselves in. yes they are a great positive influence on people but not expected to do impossible things. a primarch is such a great addition to the forces of the imperium without unbalancing 40k as a whole. a primarch can only influence a certain area at any one time where as the emperor you would expect to be able to be everywhere at once. and that would just prove too much to keep track of in a general synopsis.


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## Garat Jax (Dec 12, 2008)

I Really have two points I wanted to chip in with really.

Firstly I agree 95% with everyone who has come down on the side of “there is still loads to find out about the past”. I think that there is enough scope for more fluff and interesting concepts in the current age (let alone the millennia that come before) that anyone who thinks that they wouldn’t be satisfied by it isn’t really thinking it through. That being said I have for a long time now wanted Games Workshop to step up to the plate and be counted. By this I mean that GW should have an all encompassing history line that “once they’ve got it” is there to stay. In just about every thread I’ve ever read people have mentioned the changes through the different versions and thing that directly contradict each other. If however they got themselves organised, unified all the little bits from past versions of the game as well as the current one, from all the old White Dwarf articles, the books etc… and said here you go this is the history of everyone Crons, IG, Eldar CSM, all the SM chapters the lot. Not only would everyone be singing from the same hymn sheet but people could spend more time thinking about how to fill in the gaps a the what happened in this war or that siege rather than some of the more trivial disagreements that tend to happen.

Secondly I think moving the plot of 40K forward could be marvellous if it’s done in the right manor. I don’t think something as drastic as killing off or waking the big cheese himself, having chaos break free and take over the galaxy etc would be good at all because as people have pointed out it would destabilize things too much. I do however think that a few more moderate changes could do wonders for those people who have that stuck in the rut feeling. For example there are a number of primarch in various ambiguous states (either asleep, in stasis, MIA what ever.) bringing one or some of those back wouldn’t have to mess things up too much but would sure make things interesting, or how about an expanding Tau empire right in the path of the Tyranids turning to the Eldar for help and perhaps even giving them a few worlds as payment to start rebuilding the Eldar empire. All sorts of subtle little things could be done to move the plot along without seriously jeopardising the balance of the 40K universe because at the end of the day no-one wants to see any one race wipe out all the others because then who would you play against!!!

Just some stuff for you all to think on.


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## klaswullt (Feb 25, 2012)

Eldar = Lost in Space

Eldar= Battlestar galactica.

Eldar= Humans, Andromeda.

Eldar = Mimbari. Babylon5

Tau= Alliance. Serenity.


(Serenity)
Darker Tau, good creates evil becouse their good intentions goes wrong, attempts
to reform anyone are doomed, and nature cannot be messed with creating evil psychopaths instead.
( ravers in Serenity).

More Powerfull Orks.
Introduce smarter and more powerfull, natural born Orks.

More darker and more evil Necron.
Combine Cthan and Necron Dynasties.

More darker and more evil Imperium.

More death cults, and death symbols.
Death Eldar, Death Emperium, Death Orks.

More Lovecraftian..stuff.


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## vipertaja (Mar 20, 2010)

GW pissed off loads of people merely by (probably) killing off Eldrad Ulthran...
and people want to bulldoze the whole status quo now? Even kill the emperor!?

I'm pretty firmly in the no camp, for reasons already brought up by others.



cegorach said:


> What i think the one thing that the 40k universe is missing is a sort of middle ground.
> 
> I mean somewhere for renegades of any race to go, like the maelstrom but without the chaos aspect. Like a place where all outcasts can gather and where any team can get alot of mercenaries, but not in any way linked to chaos which is pretty much the only way for renegades to survive these days.
> 
> ...


A good idea, but this is simple stuff to do on your own. There are many 
pirate empires out there. Maybe they've made a home out of a part of the 
webway or something? None of the sentient races destroy them because: 
A) It's far more trouble than it's worth as you say. 
B) They hire them from time to time. 

I guess what you want is rules for such...and admittedly that would have to 
be homebrewed at the moment, depending on just how mixed up a group you 
want. Could make for some interesting homebrew kill team stuff or such I 
guess? Or something "necromundaesque"? 

The only real way to do it currently is of course some sort of allied forces 
game. Making rules on it would be tricky though, as it would have to be 
restrictive to limit abuse. 

This idea of yours would actually make a very interesting topic on it's own.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

Harriticus said:


> Re-introducing the Interex into the Galaxy could be fun. Having another human faction besides the Imperium to play, and one that isn't demented and backwards. I like the idea of the Interex desperately fighting wars of survival against the Imperium to retain their modern and civilized society.


werent they completely wiped by the luna wolves?

also if they start making mayor changes to the fluf you get a lot of pissed fluff hobbyists rage quiting.

In other news isnt it a mayor change forward in time already that they have fleshed out the Necron fluff and units some more?


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## vipertaja (Mar 20, 2010)

Haskanael said:


> werent they completely wiped by the luna wolves?
> 
> also if they start making mayor changes to the fluf you get a lot of pissed fluff hobbyists rage quiting.
> 
> In other news isnt it a mayor change forward in time already that they have fleshed out the Necron fluff and units some more?


To be honest, I don't think electing a new mayor here and there will change that much. I doubt even the most dedicated fluffist will get their panties in a twist about mayor change. 

(just kidding, I know what you mean. It's spelled "major".)


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## stevey293 (Aug 16, 2011)

Would make a good story i think if the golden throne started to really go wrong. I'll be honest i dont read the books but i understand it already is starting to???


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Haskanael said:


> werent they completely wiped by the luna wolves?


No, it was assumed that another crusade would be drawn up in time to wipe them out. But the Luna Wolves had more pressing matters to attend to...

The Interex have proven to be quite a popular faction, with a lot of people wondering if their civilisation could have endured or if indeed they are still around. Honestly though, the Interex were just one of thousands of seperate human civilisations that survived the Age of Strife - albeit a relatively advanced one. They were completely unimportant and irrelevant on the galactic stage.


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## Majere613 (Oct 14, 2008)

Personally, as a long-time 40k player (over 20 years now, gulp!) I really, really don't want to see major 'changes' or 'advancements' to the 40k backstory. In fact, it felt to me that they came damn close to going to far with the last Black Crusade.

One of the central design planks of the 40k universe, and what makes it such a superb background for a wargame, is that it is incalculably massive. There are millions of worlds, untold teeming billions of sentients. This is very important, because it means if you want to tell a story where an entire star-system is sucked into the warp after a massive battle between an entire craftworld-worth of Eldar, five Marine Chapters and a Traitor Legion, you can. The Imperium will just trundle on. You can create doomed Chapters like the Soul Drinkers or Relictors, wipe them out or have them fall to chaos- all good.

As soon as you start to try to 'move things forward' you start to restrict the universe, make it seem small or to have only a very few important locations, and that has untold ramifications.

I'd bring out the example of White Wolf. For a long while, their RPG setting, the World of Darkness, was massive in the PnP rpg world. It was detailed, yet open to interpretation, had multiple interesting factions and massive story potential. Then, they ended the whole thing in the apocalypse (Gehenna, Awakening, Ascension, etc depending on your angle) and tried to reboot it with a whole new set of rules, radically altered background, etc. It came very close to destroying them, and I now know nobody who plays it.

It's fine to flesh out the Xenos races and add the odd new one- it's a big universe and things are constantly being discovered. But it doesn't need some radical new direction now any more than it did twenty years ago.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Maybe it's me but I don't see your point here Majere. If you progressed this plot you would be expanding the universe temporally and possibly geographically. We might find out where the hell the tyranids come from and they possibly have a ruling sect that control the hive mind on a homeworld. Or maybe it is the Outsider but the existence of the Hive Mind makes that unlikely in my opinion. No one is talking about a reboot but maybe closing some storylines that are loooooong overdue for resolution. The battle for Armageddon needs to end. Why? Because the tyranid threat needs to be addressed seriously. As the Necron/C'tan,IMO, have been relegated to an odd place in the threat category now that they can be reasoned with still I see them as a US to Russia relationship. 

Cypher needs to do something as his storyline,IMO, has just been forgotten. Characters like Typhus,Lucius, Com. Eindolon, and Ahriman barely get their due anymore in the stagnant plot line. So many bad assed characthers are introduced and forgotten. Some factions barely get any love in the novels like the Tau or Imperial Assassins, even the regular guard gets more attention.I'm working on a short story for the Assassins right now. Star Wars has progressed their storyline while simultaneously showing historically events. Same for Forgotten Realms and the Halo franchise (I know but I'm making a point). It doesn't kill your franchise to progress the plot.


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## Majere613 (Oct 14, 2008)

Deadeye776 said:


> The battle for Armageddon needs to end. Why? Because the tyranid threat needs to be addressed seriously. As the Necron/C'tan,IMO, have been relegated to an odd place in the threat category now that they can be reasoned with still I see them as a US to Russia relationship.


This is _exactly_ my point. Armageddon is a massive meat-grinder that has been going on for decades, but the wider Imperium doesn't really care. There are multiple Tyranid Hive Fleets all over the place, but they're dealt with on a local level. The whole point of a massive, ancient setting is that all this stuff can go on _without_ radically changing that setting.



Deadeye776 said:


> Cypher needs to do something as his storyline,IMO, has just been forgotten. Characters like Typhus,Lucius, Com. Eindolon, and Ahriman barely get their due anymore in the stagnant plot line. So many bad assed characthers are introduced and forgotten. Some factions barely get any love in the novels like the Tau or Imperial Assassins, even the regular guard gets more attention.I'm working on a short story for the Assassins right now. Star Wars has progressed their storyline while simultaneously showing historically events. Same for Forgotten Realms and the Halo franchise (I know but I'm making a point). It doesn't kill your franchise to progress the plot.


Cypher is travelling towards Terra, but the nature of Warp travel means he may never get there, or he may get there in a millenia, or tomorrow. Everyone has their little schemes, but if they succeed they won't break the world.
I have to say your choice of examples is a bit iffy. Star Wars continuity is in such a mess they had to split most of it off from the movies into an 'expanded universe' and the Halo franchise is trying to come to terms with whether or not they can carry on the story. These are the sort of problems 40k has (so far) avoided.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Garat Jax said:


> I do however think that a few more moderate changes could do wonders for those people who have that stuck in the rut feeling. For example there are a number of primarch in various ambiguous states (either asleep, in stasis, MIA what ever.) bringing one or some of those back wouldn’t have to mess things up too much but would sure make things interesting, or how about an expanding Tau empire right in the path of the Tyranids turning to the Eldar for help and perhaps even giving them a few worlds as payment to start rebuilding the Eldar empire. All sorts of subtle little things could be done to move the plot along without seriously jeopardising the balance of the 40K universe because at the end of the day no-one wants to see any one race wipe out all the others because then who would you play against!!!
> 
> Just some stuff for you all to think on.



Well I think this would be the only possible successful change that could occur. A primarch returns and there is a split in the Imperium. The Religious side with the Eclesiastey(sp) SOB and Inquisition. Then the Primarch with Chapters of space Marines. Maybe the Mechanicum staying Neutral and supplying both.
2. A resurgence of the Eldar would be interesting
3. The Tau move forward.


Doc


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## Majere613 (Oct 14, 2008)

The Tau are actually a great example of the strength of the 40k universe. They're unlike anything else in the game in almost all respects, they're dynamic and expanding. In most backgrounds a race like that is a real problem in the narrative because either they get stopped and wiped out, or they change your gameworld forever.

But in 40k, the Tau empire is less than postage-stamp sized. They can make huge advances or lose half their territory, and the universe at large won't notice- that gives you a lot of freedom story-wise. There's a lot of potential for them interacting with the older races, learning about Chaos, encountering the Tyranids and Necrons, etc. At the same time, you need to be careful doing things like, for example, aiming a hive fleet at them, because their entire Empire could easily get eaten, and no-one (I hope) wants them to go the way of the Squats.


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## gridge (Feb 11, 2012)

normtheunsavoury said:


> 40K hasn't moved past the present time in 20 something years, it's just fine the way it is. It's something that seems to have been lost from the game recently but the whole idea of leaving things fairly open is for players to fill in the blanks.


I agree with this. I like the stagnation, slow-decline and impending doom that is the Imperium. I like that it is beset on all sides and in a state of constant struggle, frantically trying to maintain what it has. Plus, the past hasn't even been totally fleshed out yet. We know the basics but as we've seen in the Heresy series there is a lot more to it that is coming to light. I'm sure one day there will be some sort of 40K apocalypse (not referring to the supplement of the same name) but jumping forward now, while they are still defining history, would be premature. 

As for a split with the Mechanicum...that would greatly hasten the fall of the Imperium, unless there was a loyal faction that helped them maintain their tech to some degree. They have always been so guarded with their secrets that no one else would know how to fix or maintain anything. How long would it take to lose warp capability? How long would the war machines function? How long before the manufactorums grind to halt? Of course, there would be techmarines but not enough of them to make a difference and most would be committed to keeping their Chapters alive. Besides, the Imperium has enough enemies, let them have one ally at least.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Star Wars suffers because of two factors: George Lucas and the movies. If it wasn't for that the you'd have one of the most bad assed scifi settings in the genre. Look at Knights of the Old Republic, I haven't even played it and the trailers alone make me want to get into it. Then look at the Star Killer. A bad assed character while the second game wasn't that great it wasn't horrible. All I'm saying is they've expanded not only the universe but also the plot and setting. You don't just have to have a damn history lesson to make your fanchise successful. In my opinion it's a lack of fortitude that has them exapanding on the known. Do something. 

How? Again look at Star Wars. In the expanded universe the death of Vader and the Emperor did not kill the storyline or even slow things down. The same thing can be done for 40k. Kill Abbaddon or the Emperor. Progress the story. It won't be the end. Eventually you can only look back so much. There will come a time maybe in the next 25 years when enough has been told that the fans will demand an end or resolution to:

The Armageddon War
The 13th Black Crusade situation
The Tyranid Hive Fleets 
Why the Grey Knights won't elect a new supereme master 
Why the day Gulliman died isn't an imperial holiday (I made that one up)
The Daemon Primarchs
The Chaos Space Marines
The Tau rise
The Necron awakening and C'tan Shards
The Void Draon and the Mechanicum
The Golden Throne
The Loyalist Primarchs


For a setting game they seem to have more intrigue in their future than in their past.With the Heresy's resolution maybe next year or so, what in the past will draw your interest? The Gogo Vandire situation? The original Tyranid Wars? What else? Look at the list I just made and tell me you can put one together that would generate more interest of past events that are more significant than these.


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## Eetion (Mar 19, 2008)

I actually am quite happy with the way things are. Maybe a bit more on the progression of the 13th Black Crusade. 

But I would love much more in depth stuff about Vandires reign of blood, imperium on imperium, maybe a few scenarios and major events. 

Also I'd love a derivative game. Wars of Unification. Armies of Thunder warriors and techno barbarian factions, maybe a unification era mechanicum element.it would be totally different and I'd be sold on it.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

What I want, is for the proverbial "2 minutes till midnight" scenario to be move forward by 1 minute. Advance the story just a smidge and milk that environment for another 10-15 years. I'd be cool with that in that at least I was able to read about everything that's happened in the PAST and now am experiencing things as they currently were happening.


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## gridge (Feb 11, 2012)

Diatribe1974 said:


> What I want, is for the proverbial "2 minutes till midnight" scenario to be move forward by 1 minute. Advance the story just a smidge and milk that environment for another 10-15 years. I'd be cool with that in that at least I was able to read about everything that's happened in the PAST and now am experiencing things as they currently were happening.


I think that someday soon we will see the clock tick ahead, but we all know that the Heresy hasn't been milked to its full potential by the powers that be (since many like myself continue to buy whatever is released). As I mentioned earlier, I don't mind this in some ways. There is so much of the fluff that is finally being finalized as well as expanded on. The Heresy is doing more than retelling history, it's creating it and making slightly more sense of a setting that has been plagued by ever-changing fluff and had gaping holes in the storyline. One thing I'm personally hoping for is that they lay down once and for all the origin of the Emperor. Then they can have a 20 book series on the his rise.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Diatribe1974 said:


> What I want, is for the proverbial "2 minutes till midnight" scenario to be move forward by 1 minute. Advance the story just a smidge and milk that environment for another 10-15 years. I'd be cool with that in that at least I was able to read about everything that's happened in the PAST and now am experiencing things as they currently were happening.


If that were possible, a few years down the line people would get agitated again and wish the clock to then pass midnight altogether. People need to accept that 40k has never been a progressional storyline and will never significantly advance it's timeline. There is more than could ever possibly be explored in the Imperium's ten millennia history already to expand and elaborate upon, I don't see 40k as stagnant whatsoever.

In fact I believe the nature of the 40k setting is key to it's success. One example: when I played table-top (a long time ago now) one of the reasons which I came across that put people off Lord of the Rings was that the tale had ended - Sauron had lost. All the battles players staged were essentially historical in that sense, with the ultimate outcome unavoidable. In contrast 40k is a setting on the brink, it really involves players and gives them a sense of importance in that regard - if they conclusively advanced the timeline it would lose a lot of it's appeal.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Gotta disagree Cote. I'm saying that they progression wouldn't kill this universe. Multiple franchises have historical and future storylines and do fine whether we are talking comics,scifi,horror,or fantasy. This rich history you keep referring to is fine. But I think it's extremely limiting that the story never moves forward. It's seems a bit cowardly and I'll explain why. This universe has given us a sceniario that no other has. The death of human civilization and possible total destruction of the human race. How it got here is extremely interesting but the cowardly thing is not pulling the trigger on it.

You could make this about the fall and potential rise of man. Or maybe the rise of the Tau since they're like the China and India of 40k. Well I'll say that you can have it rotational. I already put out a scenario.Maybe the CSM and Abbaddon finally pull it off and finally see chaos for what it is. Groups like the Night Lords and Alpha Legion then break off and fight Chaos in a bid for redemption. Who knows,these are just ideas. What I'm sayin is you can look forward and back. In the past except for the Reign of Blood and Unification Wars, what else will generate as much interest as the Heresy?

Nothing. If you look at it I'm telling you that the Emperor's origin is most likely going to get released by the last book in the Heresy series. The fate of the two lost primarchs is also a strong possibility of disclosure. What other secrets are left? We've had the Mechanicum's founding and confirmation of what they worship. The truth of Magnus and Lorgars fates and how they got their. Almost all the primarchs will probably get love in this series. Now look forward. How much MORE is waiting to be told. They have more plot lines in the future than in the past. Ovcourse the history is big, but besides the Heresy for the Imperium what else has the interest as the list I previously stated.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> Gotta disagree Cote. I'm saying that they progression wouldn't kill this universe. Multiple franchises have historical and future storylines and do fine whether we are talking comics,scifi,horror,or fantasy.


40k isn't a typical franchise though. The setting is literally placed on a precipice - advance the timeline forward and either the universe dies or at the very least drastic changes come in which would make 40k largely unrecognisable to it's current form.

Take the example you used earlier: Star Wars. The death of Vader or Sidious wouldn't (and didn't) end the galaxy as it was known. The death of the Emperor in 40k would. 

It also has to be taken into account that 40k lore is an addition to the 40k game. The lore provides the backdrop for players to base their games on. It was always designed to be a setting, one which could be effected by gamers. Want to know what would potentially happen, play it out and see. Don't game? Then come up with theories and discuss them. Push the timeline forward: the Tau Empire gets obliterated by the Hive Fleets? unhappy Tau players. The Emperor dies and the Imperium fractures? Unhappy Imperial players. The Craftworld Eldar finally get wiped out? Unhappy Eldar players. You get the picture. The 40k setting as it is gives us a perfect backdrop for the wars of the seperate factions, and the tabletop is and has always been the priority.



Deadeye776 said:


> This rich history you keep referring to is fine. But I think it's extremely limiting that the story never moves forward...
> 
> What I'm sayin is you can look forward and back. In the past except for the Reign of Blood and Unification Wars, what else will generate as much interest as the Heresy?
> 
> Nothing.


How much political intrigue, corruption, betrayals and wars have occured over the last two thousand years of human history on Earth? Multiply that to ten thousand years and set it across an entire galaxy rather than a single planet. There are so many more things that could be introduced into the history of the Imperium beyond the Reign of Blood (which seems to be the most popular tale set inbetween 30k and 40k). 



Deadeye776 said:


> If you look at it I'm telling you that the Emperor's origin is most likely going to get released by the last book in the Heresy series.


I don't think it will be, we'll see though. 



Deadeye776 said:


> The fate of the two lost primarchs is also a strong possibility of disclosure.


According to Gav Thorpe (and every other authoritative source that i've seen mention it) they will never be revealed: Link.



Deadeye776 said:


> What other secrets are left? We've had the Mechanicum's founding and confirmation of what they worship. The truth of Magnus and Lorgars fates and how they got their. Almost all the primarchs will probably get love in this series. Now look forward. How much MORE is waiting to be told. They have more plot lines in the future than in the past. Ovcourse the history is big, but besides the Heresy for the Imperium what else has the interest as the list I previously stated.


Thing is, we already knew all that - or at least theories were abound in the established lore which suggested what the Mechanicum truly worshipped and what happened with Magnus and Lorgar (although both have obviously been elaborated upon).


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I guess this is where we will agree to disagree. In my opinion the heresy stands alone as something that has been built for a quarter of a century as the pivotal point of how humanity came to this. Yes the Unification Wars and Reign of Blood are also important storylines but pale in comparrison to the Heresy's importance. The heresy more so than any event in the Imperium's past is the ONLy thing that will command this kind of interest. The Age of Apostasy or Reign of Blood are interesting but not as pivotal. If you want to keep this up IMO you'll have to leave the Imperium. Why? Because finding out how and why the Eldar created Slaanesh would be more intersting. Why? Because finding out about the War in Heaven and Rise and Fall of the Necron Empire as well as the C'tan and the Old Ones would be more interesting. Sorry but if you want to keep up the history lessons the events I just named off are the equivalent to the Horus Heresy in importance and galactic setting if not greater. The only thing the Imperium will have left that will garner more attention or as much would be a Sigmar like story about the Rise of the Emperor with the Unification Wars.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I couldn't give two shits about the unification wars. 

Origins of the Emperor, Rise and fall of the necrons, eldar and Old Ones are of more interest. Unfortunately given GW's priorities these are likely to be left as mere background lore never to be expanded upon.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Honestly, 40k as it stands is growing a bit on the dull side for me. I could care less at this point what happened between points A and Z because points A and Z are at least relitivelly solid, if not fixed. 40k is a fine enough universe, but there is no evolution. Nothing really changes and nothing likely will change that upsets the natural order. I loved the fluff, but it needs one hell of a booster shot to keep me interested.

On a side note, I don't see why we couldn't. If we were to simply advance the story by a few years than it wouldnt have to mean the end of any one factor or even anything close to that. We could have the first elements of the primary hive fleet show up, Abaddon break the Cadian blockade and go on a rampage throughout the sector, increase the level of ork and chaos insurgent attacks and more crons power up and no one faction would need to die. If some little twerp has to pull himself way from jacking off to his emperor poster to bitch because his imperium is having a tougher time then he is well within his right to fuck off.


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## SolvableSphinx (Mar 1, 2012)

gen.ahab said:


> Honestly, 40k as it stands is growing a bit on the dull side for me. I could care less at this point what happened between points A and Z because points A and Z are at least relitivelly solid, if not fixed. 40k is a fine enough universe, but there is no evolution. Nothing really changes and nothing likely will change that upsets the natural order. I loved the fluff, but it needs one hell of a booster shot to keep me interested.
> 
> On a side note, I don't see why we couldn't. If we were to simply advance the story by a few years than it wouldnt have to mean the end of any one factor or even anything close to that. We could have the first elements of the primary hive fleet show up, Abaddon break the Cadian blockade and go on a rampage throughout the sector, increase the level of ork and chaos insurgent attacks and more crons power up and no one faction would need to die. If some little twerp has to pull himself way from jacking off to his emperor poster to bitch because his imperium is having a tougher time then he is well within his right to fuck off.


Honestly, if we're going with the whole 'galaxy in flux' then balance that off with the Imperium discovering some STC tech treasure trove, possibly with some unsettling (to the Imperium) technology that they would have to come to terms with.

As for me, I'm still trying to get a hang of all the fluff out there. It's a bit intimidating.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

its "fluff", its purpose is to make the codex's rule books thicker or provide GW with another revenue stream in the case of BL, but the general setting of 40k has no need to change or move forward, This may be considered swearing in this forum, but its all about the models!
I think the only way the setting can move forward is by the expansion of the armies, new unit types who will then require some fluff , revamped codexes will get more fluff or chages to fluff, but i imagine that will be stuff thats happened to them in the past rather than the current day moving on. 

Personally i like how things are at the moment, many years ago when GW had a forum i was very vocal about them just rehashing the same units and never coming up with something new in terms of unit and models, it was left to FW to produce the old epic scale vehicles into 40k scale but outside of that it was very slow moving.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Cote, I meant to say that the Unification wars wouldn't be interesting unless you included the story of the Emperor's origin. I too could give two shits about the Unification Wars. Gen.ahab I agree with you and soon more will. It's obvious to many that the Horus Heresy is being dragged out. Between Siginus Prime and a few more primarch stories what's left in the Heresy? Just the Seige which will be stretched out for a few more years. In all I say this whole storyline just has maybe 5 more years left.What's next after that? Unless they focus on the Eldar's Fall or the War in Heaven nothing will generate this much revenue for GW. It's strange that they've set up the most interesting storylines for their future. For the last 25 years we've gotten everything except the Heresy and now we've got that. You think they can do another 25 like that with the Heresy being fleshed out and told?


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## cloghaun (May 4, 2011)

Coming from the point of view of a fiction reader:

I don't game at all, just started reading the books. It's been hard to sort through all the terminology (what is canon/fluff, etc), getting there though.

I understand the concept of 40k being a "setting" rather than a progressive story line, like Star Wars for example, for the sake of the 40k game. I'm fine with BL staying in this setting and not going further. 

What I would like to see however, for clarity's purpose is more linear definition to what's out there now & what's going to be published. There doesn't seem to be any clear timelines for all the different omnibuses, space marine series, etc. Maybe they could do an expanded preface in each book that explained things. It also would be great if they published books that in some way tied in these existing series, or mentioned them. Perhaps a series of short story collections that discuss the Imperial government, choices made that steer it in certain directions, etc- for those of us that only read the books. I mean seriously, I read these forums & I'm like, " a lot of you know all this stuff that isn't in any books I've heard of, lol".

I guess I'd just like a bit more of a straight line within the setting, instead of having to fill in the blanks from game/online sources, etc.

Hope this makes sense.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

cloghaun said:


> I guess I'd just like a bit more of a straight line within the setting, instead of having to fill in the blanks from game/online sources, etc.
> 
> Hope this makes sense.


Well just a heads up then. 

A lot of the stuff that Dan Abnett writes for 40k is usually set a couple of centuries (Gaunts Ghosts) or more (Eisenhorn/Ravenor) before the 'current' time line of the majority of Black Library's 40k novels. Also he drops little easter eggs in all his books- tying them all together however tenuously (or in the case of Double Eagle, Titanicus, and Brothers of the Snake direct spin-offs)

Most of the novels by other authors usually take place within the second half (sometime the last 5-10 years of) of the last century of the 41st millennium. Not terribly helpful I know when attempting to construct a timeline, though the newer Codexes have started including the appropriate protagonists 'adventures' into their timelines.


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