# Worst bit of fluff ever



## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

What is the worst bit of fluff you have ever come across?

This could be anything: some from a codex, the rulebook, white dwarf etc etc.

Me? the stuff about Draigo going into the warp with any protection and fighting the daemons. From what I hear, anyone who looks at the warp directly goes insane (not sure it thats true or not)

Discuss!


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## sethgabriel1990 (Sep 21, 2010)

I really dont like the fluff that Lucius the Eternal can't die. that really grinds my gears for some reason.

:threaten:


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Pretty much anything from codex grey knights I can't stand Mat Wards getting cockier.


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## sethgabriel1990 (Sep 21, 2010)

aboytervigon said:


> Pretty much anything from codex grey knights I can't stand Mat Wards getting cockier.


 
I agree with you here, im not a fan of the whole 'holier than thou' image of the Grey Knights, never have been. I did read the Grey Knights omnibus under the reccomendation of a friend to see if i could change my mind but it just didnt happen. Dont like the models either :biggrin:


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Draigo. I just... No, no. You want to have a lone Grey Knight wandering the warp? That's actually pretty cool. You want him to be able to kill Demon Primarchs, forge weapons from dead demons with MIND POWERS and basically send the Ruinous Powers into, well, ruins? That's flat out stupid. He's basically Chuck Norris and just as dull, unfunny and old an idea.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Most the Grey Knights Codex but especially Draigo... what happened to the old and dark days where Grey Knights were mind wiped after each encounter?


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

Besides Matt Ward's fluff (herp de derp, putting on innocent's blood makes us even more impervious to corruption, even though we are basically made to be so with bloody hexagramic wards CARVED into their BONES and armour!) I would also have to say i don't like Cruddace's fluff in the Tyranid codex where an Iron Warrior Fortress World gets WTFpwned by some Trygons and Raveners. Apparently Iron Warriors don't have land mines or any type of underground defense....did I mention they had 600 defilers with them? *600*. That was just bad fluff to glorify new models and sell them.

Also didn't like Thunderwolf Calvary, Kelly jumped the shark with that one. Way too many wolf motifs....Wolf Claws....really?


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Grimskul25 said:


> Also didn't like Thunderwolf Calvary, Kelly jumped the shark with that one. Way too many wolf motifs....Wolf Claws....really?


Oh, that? You didn't like Captain (Wolf) Wolfborn of the Space Wolves riding a Wolf?


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

I'm on board with the Ward hate.

Particularly the Space Marines codex and Grey Knights.

No, _especially_ the grey knights...

Why can't they do good fluff like the Lamenters in one of the Imperial Armour books?

They were supposed to blow up some place of strategic importance, but stayed to protect the human slaves. Who else would do that? When they couldn't protect them without causing huge damage to the chapter, the slaves asked to be executed... Allowing the Lamenters to leave the planet and escape the gigantic Ork horde. 

Afterwards, the Marneus Calgar himself presented them with some sort of ancient relic to stand as a testament to their bravery and incredible success in their part of the campaign (It was said to be a suicide mission, then again what isn't these days....). Anyway, when presented with this artifact of pride and honor, they refused it. Why?

Because of what they had lost.

I can't think of any other chapter that would remember the sacrifice that mere slaves made for them. Allowing themselves to be killed so that they couldn't benefit the enemy in any way.

They're what I think of when someone mentions Space Marines, not some mute asshole that thinks he's hardcore because some writer said he can piss on other armies with his magic power gloves.

Seriously, fuck Ward and what he's doing to the Ultramarines and Grey Knights.

And whatever else he's done...

Lamenters ftw!


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

Space wolves with their rending wolves of wolfy wolfydom.

Blood Angels codex with their Blood this and blood that and everybloodyother thing.

Marneus Calgar bitchslapping an Avatar.

Avatars can bitchslap (and snap over their knees) Greater daemons. Who does this mon'keigh boy think he is?


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

sethgabriel1990 said:


> I really dont like the fluff that Lucius the Eternal can't die. that really grinds my gears for some reason.
> 
> :threaten:



Oh, he can die, but from what I understand, if you're anything but 99.999999999% near perfect in doing it, well....we all know what happens when Lucius "dies".


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I actually sorta liked Draigo. He goes around beating down things (I liked the part where he killed a daemon with his broken sword and then melted down the daemon's weapon to reforge his own broken weapon), but it shows the ultimate futility of his efforts as everything comes back. No matter what he does, his efforts are for naught. He struggles against the temptation and horrors of the Warp and for what? To have them come back and try to kill him again.

Actually I didn't mind the Grey Knight codex as much as everyone else does...

One thing that did get me was the mindwiping. Sure, kill or mindwipe Guard or civies. But other Space Marines? They're supposed to be hardened against the warp! They know all about Chaos!

This is over the top for me and I suppose just a weak attempt at showing how much more horrible GKs have it over their normal brethren. Which I don't buy.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

As long as Draigo is essentially "stuck" in the Warp, I'm all for him being this uber badass in there as no matter what he does in there, the Warp "resets" itself.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Matt Ward's fluff, with few exceptions, for reasons I've already explained in many threads. Surprisingly, his fluff for the Catachan Devils in the Creature Feature (WD 291) wasn't that bad. Hell, it left me wondering if it was the same guy.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Dante defeating Skar Brand the Exile... that was just flat out retarded, makes Calgar's battle against the Avatar look logical.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Not a fan of Eldrad's Fluff, or Lucius, or Abby.

Eldrad is an over powered bitch who actually fought against a primarch. His "death" was having his soul devoured by Slaanesh but his waystones are still active so he could be alive. I expect the next Eldar codex to have him pulling a stunt similar to Dragio and the vast majority of the internet will love it because he's an older character not introduced by Matt Ward.

Lucius can't die. It's lame. The reasoning is also lame, "A god wills it." The Chaos gods are supposed to be fickle, but for 10,000 years (real space time) Slannesh has no problem making sure Lucius doesn't die. Not really fickle then is he.

Abby, oh god Abby. The HH books paint him as a kid with daddy issues. "I love Horus so much I just blindly follow everything he says." Then after Horus dies it's "let the galaxy burn cause daddy is dead." 

Not a fan of the Sanguinar either. If he's a manifestation why does he have a jet pack? If he's not a manifestation why does he have better stats then Dante? Not enough information is given to make this fluff good.

Personally, I like Wards fluff overall. He's got some stuff in his codices that just seems a bit much, like blood Fist and Blood talon (though the other blood named items make sense), but over all his stuff is solid. Then again the game did have some bad fluff before Ward and it will have bad fluff after he's gone.


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## Epidemius (Nov 15, 2010)

I hate all the ridiculous stories I hear of some space marine who's supposed to be all baddass and stuff going around bitch-slapping avatars and doing other crap like that.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

chromedog said:


> Marneus Calgar bitchslapping an Avatar.


Wana see when a Fire Warrior did that, eh?


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## Ashkore08 (Feb 12, 2011)

I hate that one bit of fluff in the BA codex about BA teaming up with Necrons. Fuck that noise. EVERY other bit of fluff i have seen, read or heard says Necrons are implacable, and want to Remove sentient life from the galaxy. BA are space marines. Killing anything not human is in the job description.
And AFTER teaming up to kill tyranids, they just walk away too tired to fight? wha...? Necrons, by definition, are untiring mechanical warriors. since when do machines get tired?


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

chromedog said:


> Blood Angels codex with their Blood this and blood that and everybloodyother thing.


I find most of the menstruation marine's fluff to be terrible. Though, There is the odd little gem to be found in the 'dex. It's annoying, because they have huge potential to be an interesting chapter.



[rant]
To keep this post short here's the short list of all the stuff I find to be shit:

-Calgar.
-Draigo.
-Dante.
-The orks, and all things ork related.
-Kharn.
-ZOMGLOLPAWNAGE Draigo again.
-Optimus knights.
-Grey knights.
-Red knights.
-Blue knights.
-Any other colour-specific knights there may be.
-Abaddon, that warmaster who fails too darn much.
-The space wolves.
-The space hobbits
-The space dwarves.
-The space pope.
-The real pope.
-the popemobile.

-And of course Matt Ward.[/rant]


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## Bane_of_Kings (Oct 28, 2009)

Ashkore08 said:


> I hate that one bit of fluff in the BA codex about BA teaming up with Necrons. Fuck that noise. EVERY other bit of fluff i have seen, read or heard says Necrons are implacable, and want to Remove sentient life from the galaxy. BA are space marines. Killing anything not human is in the job description.
> And AFTER teaming up to kill tyranids, they just walk away too tired to fight? wha...? Necrons, by definition, are untiring mechanical warriors. since when do machines get tired?





C'Tan Chimera said:


> Draigo. I just... No, no. You want to have a lone Grey Knight wandering the warp? That's actually pretty cool. You want him to be able to kill Demon Primarchs, forge weapons from dead demons with MIND POWERS and basically send the Ruinous Powers into, well, ruins? That's flat out stupid. He's basically Chuck Norris and just as dull, unfunny and old an idea.





ThatOtherGuy said:


> Dante defeating Skar Brand the Exile... that was just flat out retarded, makes Calgar's battle against the Avatar look logical.



These ones are pretty much it. Oh yes, and the Dreadknight.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Ashkore08 said:


> I hate that one bit of fluff in the BA codex about BA teaming up with Necrons. Fuck that noise. EVERY other bit of fluff i have seen, read or heard says Necrons are implacable, and want to Remove sentient life from the galaxy. BA are space marines. Killing anything not human is in the job description.
> And AFTER teaming up to kill tyranids, they just walk away too tired to fight? wha...? Necrons, by definition, are untiring mechanical warriors. since when do machines get tired?


And yet if you take into account Fall of Damnos (a very mediocre book) you will see that the Necrons with some semblance of personality will do anything to stay on top or to survive.

One example from the book is when the Necron tomb-lord let a group of Ultramarines sneak by the Void necron/whatever his name was in order to increase their chances of defeating him to serve his own purposes.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

non canon fluff would be a farseer turning around in the 2nd DoW goto book to a space marine and saying "oh i thought you were all the same" refering to the chapters (Makes me cringe!) or they crazy pleasure seeking suicidal eldar that are in eldar prophacy, another goto masterpiece :ireful2: (Makes me cringe!, a pattern perhaps?) 


And you thought Ward was bad!!!


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## Ashkore08 (Feb 12, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> And yet if you take into account Fall of Damnos (a very mediocre book) you will see that the Necrons with some semblance of personality will do anything to stay on top or to survive.


... :scratchhead: Damn. How come ive never heard of that book before?
In one of the DOW games, there was that one Necron Pariah which could speak and stuff. But i seem to recall reading that When the necrontyr were imprisoned in their current necrodermis bodies,yes, they still retained much of their emotions. But as time wore on, they became deadened, unfeeling, mechanical constructs; concerned only with removing sentient life from the galaxy and Giving Ciaphas Nightmares.

Unless im missing something obvious... :headbutt:


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I didn't like a short story where a traitor Iron Warrior or something had a blood feud with an Imperial fist whose geneseed would keep passing on to another Imperial Fists and the Iron Warrior would keep turning up to kill the Imperial Fist who beared it over and over. 

Especially since in the story the Iron Warrior seems to go straight through the front door of an Imperial Fists bastion in a Land Raider as if it was nothing (what with Imperial Fists being the best defensive specialists..) Then almost single handedly butchering everything...It was pure fan fiction imo and was the worse short story I've read concerning 40k.

Some general fluff I dislike though always concerns something that has been made to look greatest ever with few flaws if any at all and can clearly be considered as the result of some writer who loves them so much he won't let them look bad in anyway.


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## Jackinator (Nov 18, 2008)

The grey knights, not only are they over-powered but the new codex has just completely shot out the attraction they once had. They used to be guys with faith and a sword struggling against the might of the Warp, now they have guys who can single-handedly destroy the most powerful greater daemons with only their sword and their true name (paladins), sorry, but even grey knights aren't that good, it took 300 to beat ghargatuloth the first time and they all died. Unfortunately that was with the previous ideas of the Grey knights.

They can't be beaten by Daemons, at all, period. In the Space Marines codex at least there was mentions of terrible catastrophes like the world engine and the Rynn's world incident. Not the grey knights though, they've just been made to look more and more 'awesome'. What happened to the mystery, I liked the fact that no one knew much about their origins. Now suddenly their geneseed is from the Emperor and they spent hundreds of years in the warp. I mean true people suspected it was the Emperor but the mystery was a huge amount of the attraction.

And what's with putting all the Inquisitor's in the same book? So much for the other ordo's chapter militant, nope, let's put em all in grey knights and completely lock out the Sisters of Battle and the Death Watch.

Breath, calm. Ok rant over :biggrin:


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## Helsreach (Jun 2, 2010)

I don't get your problem with that story. It was Black legion btw.

They ram a gate with a Land Raider, run away, take on a Dreadnought, and kill a SM captain in a duel. So what?

I believe the casualties are, 20 or so guardsmen vs a 6 man vet squad of CMs. A gate gets knocked down after being shot by a Land raider and then Rammed by it (the LR is then completely broken). A dreadnought get cut apart by a Daemon blade and an Imperial Captain gets his head cut off. Oh and a few bezerkers and IFs get killed too. So what?

I've seen tactical squads take on twice their number in Raptors and walk away. I've seen daemon princes cut down by mere captains. I've seen bezerkers cut down by scouts. I've seen a Wolf Lord take a dreadnought in hand to hand combat, and he didn't have a blade blessed by the Dark gods. 

This isn't the Mat Ward fluff, hell I even think an Avatar VS about 20 marines VS a Legendary Chapter Master is reasonable. Bit god-moddy, but reasonable and not the effortless fights that they normally blunder into these days.

I enjoyed that short story because Chaos wins for once and without them having to stab their own number in the back countless times. I felt the characters were developed and the fights were reasonable up until the dreadnought which I thought was a bit too far. 

Other than that, no complaints. If you think its unreasonable, read Galaxy in Flames and where the World Eaters are cut down to just above half strength or Battle for the Abyss where an entire chapter is destroyed in a daring gambit. 

Or just look up how 700 Defilers were killed in one tyranid invasion and then go on to read how many Chapters have fought the tyranids without 700 Predators to back them up and won. Or how Lyssander escaped an IW fort, killed everyone he met to retrieve his weapons and armour and then came back to blow it up.

The only reason Lyssander sits at all well with me is he is a legend. A legend who in that same anthology cleanses an entire Ork Rok with only five other Termies, but still. Legends get to pull of amazing stunts and I think if this guy can manage then fair play to him.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Helsreach said:


> I don't get your problem with that story. It was Black legion btw.
> 
> They ram a gate with a Land Raider, run away, take on a Dreadnought, and kill a SM captain in a duel. So what?
> 
> ...


I thought the fact the Land Raider even survived was stupid. Attacking an Imperial Fist Bastion head on without being blown up just seems stupid. It's like a Terminator being able to infiltrate with only knee high grass as cover or an Imperial Guardsmen killing a Space Marine with his bear hands one on one. 

If they did it any other way it would be fine, but they didn't and so it's unreasonable to me. The whole "curse" he had that he couldn't die to the guy etc was also stupid, if some random marine could be cursed to only kill the same guy over and over, why not give it to the whole forces of chaos and just steam roll through the Imperium. I really don't like "god-mode" characters, especially randoms bods getting them.


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## Helsreach (Jun 2, 2010)

Agreed on that point mate. I think it was that a full assault was also being launched on the gate at the same time but still, you'd think a Land Raider would draw attention especially if its coming straight for you. Oh and the curse was more that they wouldn't let him die like Lucius, they wanted the game to continue for their amusement. Still, i think withholding immortality is a stupid thing to do. Although it does act as motivation I suppose...


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Jackinator said:


> The grey knights, not only are they over-powered but the new codex has just completely shot out the attraction they once had. They used to be guys with faith and a sword struggling against the might of the Warp, now they have guys who can single-handedly destroy the most powerful greater daemons with only their sword and their true name (paladins), sorry, but even grey knights aren't that good, it took 300 to beat ghargatuloth the first time and they all died. Unfortunately that was with the previous ideas of the Grey knights.


Just figured I'd point out an entry on page 17 of the old Daemonhunters book:

Grimoire of True names: In rare cases a Daemonhunterwill bring an ancient and hallowed grimoire to the battle inscribed with the true names of all the Daemons encountered by his order. *Because Knowledge of a Daemon's name gives power over that entity* Daemons in base contact with the character equipped with this item halve their Weapon Skill (rounding down). One per Army.

The part in bold is a very interesting point. The whole knowing a true name stuff is popular in some fantasy stories and if a Daemonhunter knew the true name of a Daemon it really wouldn't be a surprise if they could trash a Daemon one on one.


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## Jackinator (Nov 18, 2008)

That is true, but also have you ever met a greater daemon who is not accompanied by countless hordes of lesser daemons, but also unnumbered cultists who have summoned them to this realm. So not only does he have to fight his way through all of those but then he has to take on the Greater Daemon itself. And of all the unnumbered legions we're still talking the 666 most powerful, not all of whom which they know the true names of.


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## Helsreach (Jun 2, 2010)

The terrible thing about the Grey Knights is as a Chaos player who cringes at every cultist wasted, I found Ben Counter, my arch enemy, managed to make them seem bigger than life, good enough to do what they did. Good enought for me to think "Yea, but they are the Grey Knights!" but now they've lost the edge, that fine line between legendary and just taking the piss. Its sad. Hopefully ADB will bring it back, I have faith in him.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I hate the fluff given in the Land Raider Crusader description; 'It took 5 Space Marines and 20 Guardsmen to bring the Warboss down'. Five Space Marines = Ork Warboss, whereas in Gunheads a Vanquisher shell doesn't bring him down. The fluff is so inconsistent when it comes to Orks, they range from being brutal monsters that are tough as old boots to cannon fodder, 'generic antagonist distractions number one'.

Midnight


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Jackinator said:


> That is true, but also have you ever met a greater daemon who is not accompanied by countless hordes of lesser daemons, but also unnumbered cultists who have summoned them to this realm. So not only does he have to fight his way through all of those but then he has to take on the Greater Daemon itself. And of all the unnumbered legions we're still talking the 666 most powerful, not all of whom which they know the true names of.


And the only grey knight to go anywhere on his own thats documented is Dragio. The rest of the time they move with a team of troops, and when they land on the world they also have the assistance of other members of the Imerium military.

Just because they could kill a Greater Daemon one on one (when they know it's true name) doesn't mean they stopped an entire demonic incursion single handedly.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Helsreach said:


> I found Ben Counter, my arch enemy, managed to make them seem bigger than life, good enough to do what they did. Good enought for me to think "Yea, but they are the Grey Knights!" but now they've lost the edge, that fine line between legendary and just taking the piss. Its sad.


:shok:

Ben Counter made regular Sisters of Battle beat up Grey Knights in physical combat...

:wacko:


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> :shok:
> 
> Ben Counter made regular Sisters of Battle beat up Grey Knights in physical combat...
> 
> :wacko:


And the SoB were getting butchered as a result. Of course, the SoB had no idea they were being played by the forces of Chaos before that point either.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I find one point in Codex Space Marines to be totally ridiculous. Surprised no one has mentioned this.

One of the Devastator squads in Sicarius's 2nd company manages to take down a Chaos WARLORD TITAN. They only have 2 lascannons and a multi-melta that can scratch the damn thiing. Let alone what the hell was the titan in question doing whilst they were blasting at it.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Diatribe1974 said:


> And the SoB were getting butchered as a result. Of course, the SoB had no idea they were being played by the forces of Chaos before that point either.


The losses weren't that high in exchange for every GK death.

And HELLO it's a Grey Knight. The SoB were uppercutting and throwing them around like rag dolls. I would have burst out laughing when I read that if only I didn't realize it was actually approved by BL/GW. Link

In the short story _At Gaius Point_ by ADB *a lone *Flesh Tearer wiped out an entire battalion of them.

If you think the most elite of all the Astartes that are designed to own Daemons and combat Daemon Princes, the most dangerous foes any mortal can face, should even lose a *single *man especially in melee combat no less to an unaugmented human then I don't know what you should do.

And the very idea that Ben Counter pitted the Grey Knights against some worthless opponents is an insult to their legacy.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The losses weren't that high in exchange for every GK death.
> 
> And HELLO it's a Grey Knight. The SoB were uppercutting and throwing them around like rag dolls. I would have burst out laughing when I read that if only I didn't realize it was actually approved by BL/GW. Link
> 
> ...


It's been awhile since I read the Grey Knights Omnibus, but did Counter say exactly many SoB were used? Perhaps it was things along the lines of what we saw in other books (re: Space Wolves) in which mere cultists in great enough numbers can bring down even the mighty Space Wolves (yes, I know, they're only Grey Knights and not the Sons of Russ, so I accept their frailty). Simply put: If you through enough of anything at them, there's going to be wounds drawn, regardless of how mighty they are.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

You know what? We should burn every single GW book, codex and any other fluff writings so that we can start over. There are so many god dam contradictions that now its beginning to remind me of Marvel Comics.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Stephen_Newman said:


> I find one point in Codex Space Marines to be totally ridiculous. Surprised no one has mentioned this.
> 
> One of the Devastator squads in Sicarius's 2nd company manages to take down a Chaos WARLORD TITAN. They only have 2 lascannons and a multi-melta that can scratch the damn thiing. Let alone what the hell was the titan in question doing whilst they were blasting at it.


Rules wise, impossible. "Realistically", it's perfectly feasible, in the same way that Engine Blocks on cars can be pierced by moderately heavy bullets in todays world, but don't always, a single lascannon shot could hit something naughty - perhaps a power coupling, or a plasma-coolant system, or, being a chaos titan, a daemonically possessed panel which proceeds to rip it apart in it's pain and anger.

In the same way, that in real life, terrorists wouldn't have a chance against the forces of the rest of the world, but due to chance situations, they are able to kill so many.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Plus we don't know the state of the Titan they slew. Did it have its void shields torn away by another Titan or super heavy vehicle? Was it already crippled? Did they ambush it from an unseen location while it was still behind enemy lines (and so would probably not have its void shields up). 

Heck, for all me know they boarded the titan somehow and shot the Princeps with a meltagun.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> Draigo. I just... No, no. You want to have a lone Grey Knight wandering the warp? That's actually pretty cool. You want him to be able to kill Demon Primarchs, forge weapons from dead demons with MIND POWERS and basically send the Ruinous Powers into, well, ruins? That's flat out stupid. He's basically Chuck Norris and just as dull, unfunny and old an idea.


Since there is nothing visibly in the warp (no light to refract or anything) I can imagine him in complete darkness and you jsut see him with his eyes shut and shouting and flailing his arms around while in his mind he is doing all those things :laugh:

I am just trying to think "What the hell is Matt Ward thinking?" 
He seems to contradict everything GW is, and not in the good Starburst sontradiction either


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

This is my plan: Write your own backstories for your armies and special characters that are reasonable in the awesome level. Then we look disapprovingly at people who gush at the crazymad fluff. This will have about the effectiveness of any petition to GW and will help with the pain of stupid on rational minds. Just because GW publishes it does not mean it must be accepted.


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

Doom of Malantai ... WTF? A mental vampire that an ENTIRE fucking craftworld could not find? It hid out and built its power and sucked the souls of the Eldar and they could feel it happen and yet this entire race of psykers were powerless to stop it? Blow me. I could have accepted it if they had made it a backwoods human world that contained untrained psykers who knew something was wrong but couldn't say for sure what it was, but an entire Eldar craftworld. No, no, no.


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## Justindkates (Apr 30, 2010)

I would think not so much fluff set in stone but the "idea" that the Imperium is still using the same technology for the last 10,000+ years. 

I mean look at Land Raiders. The last time we used side sponsons on a tank was WWI. 

That and I think an M1 battle tank today would dust a Leman Russ.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

My pet peeve is when in a book the Adeptus Arbites are given a Strike Cruiser (of the same make as a Space Marine Strike cruiser). People on the forum argued that it made sense for them to have a dedicated planetary assault ship.

Like the Arbites were invading planets frequently <_<.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

OIIIIIIO said:


> Doom of Malantai


Hmmm I couldn't find out anything about this other than rules for the tabletop version of WH40k. Sounds interesting.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

OIIIIIIO said:


> Doom of Malantai ... WTF? A mental vampire that an ENTIRE fucking craftworld could not find? It hid out and built its power and sucked the souls of the Eldar and they could feel it happen and yet this entire race of psykers were powerless to stop it? Blow me. I could have accepted it if they had made it a backwoods human world that contained untrained psykers who knew something was wrong but couldn't say for sure what it was, but an entire Eldar craftworld. No, no, no.


You seem to think that every eldar is a psyker? No, they simply have the potential. 

It makes sense. Eldar souls are powerful, but only those who train on the path of the seer will actually know how to use true psychic abilities. The rest, based on how the DoM is described to work, would have been easy prey, drained by mere proximity without the training to defend themselves.


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## moo (Aug 12, 2008)

The worse bit of fluff in my opinion is Dark Eldar. Enough said


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

As mentioned the worst bit of fluff I've come across is the GK sacrificing SOB's & anointing themselves in the SOB's blood... to combat an avatar of the blood god. That would be like bathing in chum before jumping into the ocean to go spear fishing for mako sharks...


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## demon bringer (Oct 14, 2008)

Belly button fluff?














Just joking not sure really the whole tau fluff seems a bit empty, not bad but empty maybe its just because i used to collect before they existed?


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

> Belly button fluff?


are you on the wrong forum?


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## demon bringer (Oct 14, 2008)

Karak The Unfaithful said:


> are you on the wrong forum?


did you not read the bit below that?


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

How every codex has a story of the race beating the shit outta the Avatar in some way...


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Cyleune said:


> How every codex has a story of the race beating the shit outta the Avatar in some way...


Haha I guess. The front of every codex should have that race beating up an Avatar and for the Eldar Codex it should have every oposing race killing the Avatar (and Slaanesh is raping him)


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Cyleune said:


> How every codex has a story of the race beating the shit outta the Avatar in some way...


That`s not true, I can`t find any instances in the eldar codex of them beatin an avatar.  

None in necron codex either. At least not yet.


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## Abomination (Jul 6, 2008)

Alot of what Matt Ward has written would qualify. Personally I find the worst to be what he wrote in the Blood Angel Codex where Mephiston defeated a Carnifex single-handedly and without weapons. Mep may be powerful but a Carnifex, really! Then he apparently took down a Hive Tyrant and a Hive Mind Brood alone just for afters. FFS WARD.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Abomination said:


> Alot of what Matt Ward has written would qualify. Personally I find the worst to be what he wrote in the Blood Angel Codex where Mephiston defeated a Carnifex single-handedly and without weapons. Mep may be powerful but a Carnifex, really! Then he apparently took down a Hive Tyrant and a Hive Mind Brood alone just for afters. FFS WARD.


Matt Ward beats off to Mary Sues- you might want to get used to it, I have a bad gut feeling we'll be seeing plenty more of him. If he writes the Necron codex it ain't going to be pretty. If he has anything other than the C'tan singlehandedly destroying anything the size of a battle barge I am gonna eat that codex... And I can guarantee you it's not going to be high enough in fiber.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> If he has anything other than the C'tan singlehandedly destroying anything the size of a battle barge I am gonna eat that codex...


:laugh:
Please, make a video if you do.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

No, dont worry, Necrons will just get raped by Smurfs, Ketchup Angels and Grey Awesomedudesofkickassery on every page. But their rules will be nice. Seriously, Mat Ward should try looking in the Homebrew Fluff section of Heresy and see much better writing.

oh, and what is with the Thunderwolf hate, leave Phil Kelly alone, at least Logan didnt go and whip Khorne and 25 bloodthirsters around the warp with his dick. Stupid Draigo. I also despise the fluff of the Sanguinor and Tigurius.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Now that I think about it, post-heresy Leman Russ fluff. All they've found is his armour? Frankly, I find the idea of an giant, angry space-ginger running around the Eye of Terror potentially naked to be utterly ridiculous. And then he might be looking for a tree? Shit, the potential for dog jokes is endless.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

I detest most fluff spawned from the low-brow derka derka armies - SM, CSM and Orkses. The two prior because of the fucking Chuck Norris super lumberjack complex, and the latter for their crampy funnies.

Tyranid fluff tends to be bland.

Necron fluff is too one-dimensional.

I guess the only fluff I really do like is that associated with Eldar, Dark Eldar and Tau.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Necrons are well written by Nick Kyme in _Fall of Damnos._ They remind me of the old Pharaohs of Egypt and their nobility. It`s true, the necron lords have more character than the ultramarines and are all out to stab each other in the back. :laugh: 

Awesome stuff.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Necrons are well written by Nick Kyme in _Fall of Damnos._ They remind me of the old Pharaohs of Egypt and their nobility. It`s true, the necron lords have more character than the ultramarines and are all out to stab each other in the back. :laugh:
> 
> Awesome stuff.


I really disliked Kyme's portrayal of the Necrons in his novel actually. It really tried to change certain things I view as being fundamental to the Necrons and their personality which I did not like.

The whole Pharaoh bit was too similar to the actual Pharaohs and had a lot of things that reminded me of the cults of the Thousand Sons, most especially Mcneil's portrayal of them.

And I mean really, couldn't he have depicted their command structure in another way minus the Pharaoh bit?

The whole Necrons plotting and planning to survive/become top-dog was too dark-eldar'ish.

The Ultramarines in the novel were dumb, falling to the 

flayers burying themselves underground twice


The Unfleshed if that was his name was too Chaos cultish/daemon-like.

The same with the Voidbringer, he reminded me of a Daemon prince.

The dialogue between the Necron Lords was too clichéd.

The one description we had of the Necrons homeworld before they changed was a desert plain where they would hunt buffalo? lolwut?

I stopped reading the novel around Tigurious's battle with the VB and I was disappointed that up to that point, there was 0 mention of the C'tan.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Really? i thought the depth it added was good, and why would you have expected anything but an egyptian theme? 

The lack of c`tan was good. There`s all but two of them at this point and to my knowledge both are well accounted for. This was the necron`s show, not theirs.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Really? i thought the depth it added was good, and why would you have expected anything but an egyptian theme?


Why would I automatically have to associate an Egyptian theme with the Necrons? Was there mention of this in previous fluff ?



Serpion5 said:


> The lack of c`tan was good. There`s all but two of them at this point and to my knowledge both are well accounted for. This was the necron`s show, not theirs.


Four of them are alive. The Ct'an made the Necrons who they are, I would imagine their would be at least one mention of them especially given the lack of stories featuring the Necrons.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Four of them are alive. The Ct'an made the Necrons who they are, I would imagine their would be at least one mention of them especially given the lack of stories featuring the Necrons.


That made me wonder as well. I have asked Ser Kyme about it but he hasn't gotten back to me, my personal theory is that the C'tan are being taken away from the Necrons. _Fall of Damnos_ seems to paint the picture that the Necrons made themselves that way in their quest for immortality, and got what they wanted, it just wasn't like they imagined. I personally like it, the unfeeling unspeaking machine army is a good concept but its not good for writing stories about them as no character has any personality.

Lets get this out of the way quickly. I like Kaldor Draigo, I like Castellan Crowe, I like the new Grey Knights Codex. I do. There I said it. I especially like that they will work with aliens, because they get it. Chaos is a bigger threat than the Eldar, and both sides know it. Yet humanity is stupid enough that they don't ally with the Eldar against Chaos, instead they fight them at every turn. The Grey Knights don't like the Eldar, or any alien. But they'll set aside their differences to fight the greater enemy. That is smart.


As for fluff I don't like well...

Personally I don't like the Blood Angels teaming up with the Necrons but I don't care for it because of the way its written. I can buy that the Necrons chose to focus on the organic life that presented the highest threat at the time, and left to replenish their numbers, now that makes sense (after all what would you focus on? 100 Space Marines or 100 thousand Tyranids?) But the idea that they considered the Blood Angels allies at all is ludicrous.


Lord of the Night


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## Justindkates (Apr 30, 2010)

C'Tan stories are pretty damn bad all around. : /


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

Justindkates said:


> C'Tan stories are pretty damn bad all around. : /


 10 bucks says William King would turn them into legend.

Hell, look what he did for Space Wolves. Oh, don't give me that bullcrap about them existing before he graced us with the tomes of legend with Ragnar in it! Either agree with me, or I'll send Lux over to your house to talk to you about Horus all weekend.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Necrons are well written by Nick Kyme in _Fall of Damnos._


I didn't like it. They tried to humanize the Necrons. They're supposed to be soulless killing machines out to harvest all intelligent life for their gods.

Their bickering and infighting reminded me of a bunch of siblings try to get along while using passive aggression to piss each other off.

They're doing it to the Tyranids, too. Hive Tyrants have their own personalities. The Stormlord is a big puzzle, too.

If Tyranids share some sort of unified consciousness, why do you need a general? Why does he have to lead? Why can't you have 20 Stormlords roving around? or 20,000? Shouldn't each Hive fleet (or Hive Tyrant) have the same information and skills as the Stormlord?

Giving Tyranids a unique commander was a bad, bad idea.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Fluff I hate Formost. 

1) Draigo running around the warp as a Atartes and carving names into DP Primarchs warp bodies. Anyone who tries to defend him by saying "well in the end he cant win" does excuse the fact he shouldnt have gotten as far as suked in the Warp from the get go. Much less the BS feats he accomplish.

2) Calgar KOing the Avatar. 

3) Guilliman pretyy much runs the show after the HH when he played little to no part in it. Then Ultras are hailed as the best cause of all the second foundings they had.

4) Ultras very own Chief Librarian is SO powerful he can look into the hive himd.... sure right.

5) Doom of Malantai takes out a whole craftworld, what was it the size of? Was it larger than a Strike Cruiser? I doubt it.

6) Old Ghazkull Thraka is the smartest and baddest Ork who leads the biggest Waaagh, and yet twice failed to take 1 planet.

7) Cadian Gate held out as long as it has, and now Abaddons stuck on Cadia with no more progressing fluff. 

8) GKs sacrifice SoB to win.... much like Chaos do to.. win...

9) How powerful the lame Nids are. Ultrasmurf Chapter by itself beat back the 3rd largest Hive Fleet without losing more than their 1st company. Yet the Nids Leviathon cant be stopped _booooooooooohhhoohohho scaaaary_.

10) Nids ate the Squats. 

Pretty much anything else Ultra or GK related annoys me.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> 3) Guilliman pretyy much runs the show after the HH _when he played little to no part in it_. Then Ultras are hailed as the best cause of all the second foundings they had.


 :read: Stopped reading here. 

Gully. after Horus was the most similar to the Emperor in terms of his vision and ambition. He was a master at creating empires and his style of strategy was better suited than the Lion's for rebuilding the Imperium. And his award winning Codex sealed the deal and proved he knew what he was doing.

And since I fail at timelines, I think the Lion was in a coma right afterwards if not then apply what I wrote above and if he was then Gully. obviously was the best choice.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I too think that nid fluff is very bland. In fact I can summarise it into the following:

1. Nids invade some part of the galaxy in huge numbers.

2. They overrun the first signs of resistance and doom is predicted.

3. Their prey begins to fight back and collects around one planet.

4. After a titanic battle the Tyranids are halted or stalled in a massive cost of lives during which most of the time this happens the space fleet gets blown up first.

5. Wait for the next wave.


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## Phoenix87 (Apr 28, 2011)

Wirst fluff ever to me is the New Dark eldar Codex;

First of all, the fact that the DE Held back a tyranid Invasion is just plain stupid!
Also that DE are almost immortal, if the have enough willpower ( i recall Reading that a Finger is enough to "rebuild" a Dark eldar


Plus the whole Soul drinker stuff (chaptermaster with spiderlegs, enough said) and the Dark mechanicum novel where in the end Chaos blasts apart thousands of titans which they wanted to use but whom they don't trust anymore all of the sudden


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

hailene said:


> I didn't like it. They tried to humanize the Necrons. They're supposed to be soulless killing machines out to harvest all intelligent life for their gods.
> 
> Their bickering and infighting reminded me of a bunch of siblings try to get along while using passive aggression to piss each other off.
> 
> ...


The Swarmlord was made because the Tyranids needed a supreme commander, a feared leader organism that when he appears, its a sure sign they will win. The Swarmlord doesn't have more personality than the others, the Hive Mind just exerts more influence through it. If a Hive Tyrant has a fraction of the Hive Mind's focus than the Swarmlord has ten times that. No Tyranid has a personality, they just have differing levels of connection to the Hive Mind and The Swarmlord has the strongest connection.




Phoenix87 said:


> Wirst fluff ever to me is the New Dark eldar Codex;
> 
> First of all, the fact that the DE Held back a tyranid Invasion is just plain stupid!
> 
> Also that DE are almost immortal, if the have enough willpower ( i recall Reading that a Finger is enough to "rebuild" a Dark eldar


The Haemonculi and their spawn held back the Tyranid invasion with the help of the Tau. Entirely possible. And judging by the number of planets invaded we can assume it was a smaller Hive Fleet. Its not stupid at all, if it said that a single Kabal held back a Hive Fleet then yeah but it was Urien Rakarth's own spawn army along with an entire Tau army that their high command was focusing on at the time.

And that is only for the most powerful of Dark Eldar, Archons and above. And there is only one thing above an Archon, Lord Vect himself. The finger can regenerate them but it takes time and effort, and if their will falters they will die. And it only works for a short period of time after death, which is why Dark Eldar raids are so quick, if enough time passes then they cannot be revived and their are lost to Slaanesh.




Warlock in Training said:


> Fluff I hate Formost.
> 
> 1) Draigo running around the warp as a Astartes and carving names into DP Primarchs warp bodies. Anyone who tries to defend him by saying "well in the end he cant win" does excuse the fact he shouldnt have gotten as far as sucked in the Warp from the get go. Much less the BS feats he accomplish.
> 
> ...


1. Draigo's victory over Mortarion does need some more explaining. How he did win? What advantages did he have? Who helped him? If he did it on his own, unaided and with no advantage then yes, that is utter BS. Brother-Captain Aurelian died fighting Angron and he had a hundred Grey Knights with him. But if they provid a good explanation as to how Draigo beat Mortarion then I am good, and the carving on his heart is just cool. As for his Warp sojourn I like it, he doesn't accomplish anything though, he just has to survive until the day when M'Kar's curse wears off and he is free.

2. It could happen. The Avatars are not invincible, they can fall. It was a grueling battle that nearly killed the both of them, I would hope. If he just owned it then yes, that is bad lore. But as long as both of them were evenly matched and fought ferociously it is possible that Calgar bested it.

3. Guilliman was the best choice for the regency. His legion was the most numerous, their Primarch wasn't dead for another thing, and he unlike everybody else, had a plan.

4. That has never been explicitly stated, only rumored. Tigurius may have looked into the Hive Mind, and considering that he is a powerful psyker it may be possible for him to do so, provided he doesn't dive into it and only looks.

5. The Doom fed off the Infinity Circuit, the souls of hundreds of thousands of Eldar were devoured and their power added to its own. And according to the Grey Knights codex, it didn't even get all of them. With that kind of power it is feasible it could take out a Craftworld, or at least scorch all of its inhabitants, the psychic backlash of such an act would badly damage the psy-sensitive materials that a Craftworld is made of.

6. He is the smartest Ork because he continuously implements strategies that no Ork has done before. Orderly retreats, sneak attacks, feints and tactical analysis. He may not have taken Armageddon but he has created one of the largest warzones in the Imperium, it has vastly drained resources from the Imperial forces and cost them dearly. Unlike Orks, Humans don't grow from the dead. Even if the Imperium wins the battle at Armageddon it won't matter, the amount of Orks growing in the soil will likely create an army that will make Ghazghkull's pale in comparison.

7. That is because 40k is at an impasse. To proceed any further would take us into the 42nd millennium, and that would kind of mess up most of 40k's promotional material and opening titles.

8. That was a one time occurrence and it provides a good explanation. The Knights needed the protection their innocent blood would provide, and if the Sisters were exposed any longer they would be killed or corrupted and then they would be of no use to anyone. Its another case of making hard choices for the greater good and survival of humanity.

9. The entire Ultramarines chapter, 1000 Astartes which is an extraordinarily potent force, a Segmentum Battlegroup that is responsible for the protection of the entire Segmentum, and who knows how many Imperial Guard regiments destroyed Hive Fleet Behemoth. The other Hive Fleets are winning because they adapted to this and split their strength, forcing the Imperium to fight them in hundreds of different battlezones, and to divide their own strength which hasn't worked out well for them. And rather then just dive into the fray the Hive Fleets Kraken and Leviathan have been taking planets beyond the Astronomicon to improve their strength.

10. That was GW getting rid of a race that wasn't very good and didn't fit into the lore. At least they didn't just say "They never existed, forget about them." At least they gave them a send-off that is recognised in the lore, they did exist once, now they don't anymore, and there is an actual explanation for it rather than just "Squats? What are those?"


Lord of the Night


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## Gotoh (Dec 20, 2010)

I'd like to put my grain of salt by just saying one thing:

Has anyone looked at the technology in the year 40000?
It's so spread out.
You have on one side space ships that travel with faster than light speeds and tanks that look like they came from WWII.
Also the guardsmen's armour hasn't progreesed in 38000 years, why
?
Geneticly altered men in advanced armour are using...the equivalent of a giant machine gun
and that is only a small amount of all the tech inconsistency.


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## demon bringer (Oct 14, 2008)

Gotoh said:


> I'd like to put my grain of salt by just saying one thing:
> 
> Has anyone looked at the technology in the year 40000?
> It's so spread out.
> ...


never heard of the term neo futuristic then? i would also like to add just look at the world today, with all our technology, but don't forget there are still people out there who fight with spears, hunt with blow pipes and farm with knives and spades


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## turel2 (Mar 2, 2009)

All of the Ultramarines fluff lol


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> The Swarmlord was made because the Tyranids needed a supreme commander, a feared leader organism that when he appears, its a sure sign they will win. The Swarmlord doesn't have more personality than the others, the Hive Mind just exerts more influence through it. If a Hive Tyrant has a fraction of the Hive Mind's focus than the Swarmlord has ten times that. No Tyranid has a personality, they just have differing levels of connection to the Hive Mind and The Swarmlord has the strongest connection.


Here's the thing. They have a shared consciousness. So what one Tyranid knows, they all know. They're not like us. Made up of individuals. 

If I learn how to kill an Ork it doesn't mean you know how to kill an Ork.

Tyranids are different. Once one figures out something they all know how to fight.

Why then do you need a particular leader? Why can't all Hive Tyrants have the same knowledge? The same adaptability? They connected to the Hive Mind. They have all the knowledge the Hive Mind has.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

hailene said:


> Here's the thing. They have a shared consciousness. So what one Tyranid knows, they all know. They're not like us. Made up of individuals.
> 
> If I learn how to kill an Ork it doesn't mean you know how to kill an Ork.
> 
> ...


Pretty sure once a Tyranid species meets another, it has to return to its original Hive fleet and be consumed along with its personal memories and experiences. 

Then the Hive mind passes on this knowledge to any future made Tyranids.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> :read: Stopped reading here.
> 
> Gully. after Horus was the most similar to the Emperor in terms of his vision and ambition. He was a master at creating empires and his style of strategy was better suited than the Lion's for rebuilding the Imperium.


:read:Stop reading there. Its cool you like Guilliman and the force down our throats by Jervis and Matt as UMs is da best there is. I dont buy it at all. Dorn was pretty much appointed by the Emp to be head good guy when Horus went all evil, not Guilliman, and between Russ, Corax, Vulcan, and a Pass out Lion there is plenty of choices still. Hell united as their own group of Highlords is cool idea, but no, Guilly said fuck you I have all the Manpower now cause I didnt do shit for the war and you all do what I say now... sounds like a Tyrant.... Im glad Fulgrim killed his ass.



Lord of the Night said:


> 1. Draigo's victory over Mortarion does need some more explaining. How he did win? What advantages did he have? Who helped him? If he did it on his own, unaided and with no advantage then yes, that is utter BS. Brother-Captain Aurelian died fighting Angron and he had a hundred Grey Knights with him. But if they provid a good explanation as to how Draigo beat Mortarion then I am good, and the carving on his heart is just cool. As for his Warp sojourn I like it, he doesn't accomplish anything though, he just has to survive until the day when M'Kar's curse wears off and he is free.
> 
> Even you point out the details are arwy, as it stands its Draigo vs Mortarion and wins.... BS.
> 
> ...


WiT


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Pretty sure once a Tyranid species meets another, it has to return to its original Hive fleet and be consumed along with its personal memories and experiences.
> 
> Then the Hive mind passes on this knowledge to any future made Tyranids.


Nope! According 5th ed Tyranid codex:

"These Hive Ships carried with them the full span of Gorgon's experiences in battle with the Tau, the taste of their weaponry and the potential of their flesh. The Tau *erroneously *believed that the knowledge could only be transferred if the Hive Ships survived to make contact with other Tyranids that even now advanced upon the Tau Empire."


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## Anarkitty (Jul 29, 2008)

hailene said:


> Here's the thing. They have a shared consciousness. So what one Tyranid knows, they all know. They're not like us. Made up of individuals.
> 
> If I learn how to kill an Ork it doesn't mean you know how to kill an Ork.
> 
> ...


As far back as 2nd ed, it was stated in the Tyranids Codex that Hive Tyrants and other high-level Tyranids encompass the whole of the Hive Mind, but are more than just extensions of it the way lesser creatures are.
Tyrants, Dominatrixes, and presumably certain other variants actually have their own individual consciousnesses distinct from the Hive Mind, or more likely somehow part of the Hive but still individual, in a way the human mind cannot truly fathom.
In the case of the Swarmlord, it can live on within the Hive Mind (perhaps like an Eldar soul in the Infinity Circuit).


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Why would you need individual thought? The point of the Hive Mind is complete control from a single source. Everything is driven by a single cause, unlike other races where individuals have their own desires or needs.

That's what make Tyranids so fierce. 

What makes the Swarmlord so potent? Its personality? Its knowledge? 

Isn't all the knowledge shared amongst all the higher level synapse creatures?


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

I dislike, in the extreme, the lack of information pretaining to technology. The way it sounds to me -- Humanity's been using the same damn ships and practically everything for the last 10,000 years. I'm not talking about same model, but the SAME DAMN THING. 

Its annoys me because of the losses all armies take in the books. How the fuck do you have anything left to fight with after 10,000 years?! HOW?! HOW FUCKING DAMMIT HOW?! :headbutt:

Sorry -- it just annoys me in the extreme. They cannot rebuild some of the Titan-classes, the larger Imperial warships, Terminator and Dreadnaught armor, Land Raiders, ect, ect. I just sit here and wonder who the hell thought some of this stuff up?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

hailene said:


> Nope! According 5th ed Tyranid codex:
> 
> "These Hive Ships carried with them the full span of Gorgon's experiences in battle with the Tau, the taste of their weaponry and the potential of their flesh. The Tau *erroneously *believed that the knowledge could only be transferred if the Hive Ships survived to make contact with other Tyranids that even now advanced upon the Tau Empire."


Ahh I stand corrected, nice find.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

BlackGuard said:


> I dislike, in the extreme, the lack of information pretaining to technology. The way it sounds to me -- Humanity's been using the same damn ships and practically everything for the last 10,000 years. I'm not talking about same model, but the SAME DAMN THING.
> 
> Its annoys me because of the losses all armies take in the books. How the fuck do you have anything left to fight with after 10,000 years?! HOW?! HOW FUCKING DAMMIT HOW?! :headbutt:
> 
> Sorry -- it just annoys me in the extreme. They cannot rebuild some of the Titan-classes, the larger Imperial warships, Terminator and Dreadnaught armor, Land Raiders, ect, ect. I just sit here and wonder who the hell thought some of this stuff up?


A lot of it--the great majority--isn't 10,000 years old. A lot of the patterns are, however.

The 10,000 year old stuff are rare relics. They're usually retired. I think the Salamanders have a Rhino that their Primarch supposedly used and it had been retired from the front lines. It's turned on every 100 years in a great ceremony.

Plus that's why they have Hive and Forge worlds. To produce all the stuff.


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## Thorin Hubertson (Jun 12, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Fluff I hate Formost.
> ...
> 8) GKs sacrifice SoB to win.... much like Chaos do to.. win...
> ...


Yeah, right. GKs sacrifing SoBs to protect themselves. Sure. They don't protect themselves by doing this, but make Khorne even stronger than he already is. Always remember: it doesn't matter to him whose blood flows...
To make fluff 'darker', they contradict every piece of background ever made.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Thorin Hubertson said:


> Yeah, right. GKs sacrifing SoBs to protect themselves. Sure. They don't protect themselves by doing this, but make Khorne even stronger than he already is. Always remember: it doesn't matter to him whose blood flows...
> To make fluff 'darker', they contradict every piece of background ever made.


Oh but GKs are the exception to the establish fluff of any other race apparently. Matt Ward > Establish Fluff from anyone else.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> :read:Stop reading there. Its cool you like Guilliman and the force down our throats by Jervis and Matt as UMs is da best there is. I dont buy it at all. Dorn was pretty much appointed by the Emp to be head good guy when Horus went all evil, not Guilliman,


And then after the Heresy Dorn did not do his duties. He did not command everybody. He ignored the highest levels of goverment(Stated in Index Astartes: Imperial Fists) and he went off on his own vengence crusade, ignoring everybody.

Dorn was derelict in his duties. As he was neglecting his command and was ruled by his own emotions I would say he is unfit to command the Imperium.



> Whatever the cause, Rogal Dorn was absent from the highest councils until he was summoned back to Terra when Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines presented his Codex Astartes as the future of the Space Marines.
> 
> Dorn was shaken, his quest for redemption had blinded him to changing times. He could not see why humanity would not trust the Imperial Fists because of what the Traitor Legions had done


You might have a point if Dorn had actually performed his duties as intended, however he did not and Guilliman was forced to step up to the plate to ensure there would be an Imperium at all.



Warlock in Training said:


> and between Russ, Corax, Vulcan, and a Pass out Lion there is plenty of choices still. Hell united as their own group of Highlords is cool idea, but no, Guilly said fuck you I have all the Manpower now cause I didnt do shit for the war and you all do what I say now... sounds like a Tyrant.... Im glad Fulgrim killed his ass.


Nope, that's rather incorrect. Guilliman, like it or not, was repeatedly praised for his strategic and organizational genius in multiple sources. Corax was cooped up in the Raven's Tower and wracked by guilt and self-doubt after trying to rebuild his Legion. Vulkan's status during the time is unknown and Russ was not the type of person to reform and administrate. Dorn had shut himself off from everybody on his own personal vengence crusade.

Guilliman was the best choice. He was the only one who actually had a plan.

Oh, and Guilliman did affect the Horus Heresy, as Age of Darkness shows us, he was already fighting against Horus and trying to gather loyalists against Horus as Iron Within shows.

and finally it was the High Lords who charged Guilliman with implementing the Codex Astartes, and Guilliman only lauched the military reforms.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

Karak The Unfaithful said:


> What is the worst bit of fluff you have ever come across?


My personal opinion:

The creation of Necrons and Tyranids.


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## Vereor (Mar 21, 2011)

Even though im a BA player, I dislike most of their special characters.

Mephiston is ridiculous. So he beat the Black Rage and it made him more powerful? And why did he beat it, even though someone with supposedly stronger willpower (Lemartes, who is a chaplain, whos job in the BA is to keep the Death Company in check? ) who suffers from it to the (supposedly same level) as Mephiston, is still going to end up bat shit crazy? Mephiston was just a Librarian when he started. It just doesnt make sense.

I also dislike the Sanguinor for the mere lack of solid fluff involving him. Not even the Blood Angels (from what ive read) know what he is. But they still assume that he is this holy icon. For all they know he could be a Daemon.

Some of the characters (*cough* Corbulo *cough*) are actually pretty cool and seem legit, even amongst the obvious "Blood Angels are Space Vampires". If they are Space Vampires, which lets face it, all the fluff points to it, why just not say so. 

And with that I say, FUCK YOU WARD! Now selling "I hate Matt Ward" shirts. Ten bucks each. Pm me.:biggrin:


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> 1. Draigo's victory over Mortarion does need some more explaining. How he did win? What advantages did he have? Who helped him? If he did it on his own, unaided and with no advantage then yes, that is utter BS. Brother-Captain Aurelian died fighting Angron and he had a hundred Grey Knights with him. But if they provid a good explanation as to how Draigo beat Mortarion then I am good, and the carving on his heart is just cool. As for his Warp sojourn I like it, he doesn't accomplish anything though, he just has to survive until the day when M'Kar's curse wears off and he is free.
> 
> Even you point out the details are arwy, as it stands its Draigo vs Mortarion and wins.... BS.
> 
> ...


Rebuttal given.


Lord of the Night


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> In the short story _At Gaius Point_ by ADB *a lone *Flesh Tearer wiped out an entire battalion of them.


He only killed three or four Sisters, actually.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Since everyone else is now arguing, I might as well argue too.



Lord of the Night said:


> You misunderstand. Thats not why they did it. They didn't need protection for their souls, they needed protection for their bodies. The sheer force of the enemy would have killed them but with the innocent blood of the Sisters of Battle they were able to survive and proceed to slay the Daemon causing the battle.


I'm going to be blunt: No, they didn't.



3E Daemonhunters Codex said:


> The armour worn by Grey Knights is archaic and baroque, anointed and inscribed with prayers and hexagrammic wards, ritually consecrated and psychically charged to do battle with the unholy. In conjunction with the psychic might of the Knights themselves, these hallowed suits of armour enable the Knights to resist their otherworldly foes.


The 5E Codex basically has this in its description of the Aegis, but it is much more vague about it. Add to it that the Grey Knights now apparently have enough Terminator armor to outfit their entire chapter (no explanation for this is given), along with each one being similarly charged with the Aegis, and I see little reason to believe that the Grey Knights would need the blood of the Sisters of Battle to protect them from the Bloodtide in mind, body, or soul.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

It's not necessarily the worst bit of fluff in my opinion, but the fact that the SoB have a tradition of getting completely slaughtered more often by their own alleged allies then enemies always gets a chuckle out of me.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Ahh I stand corrected, nice find.


_Xenology_, too talks about how successful mutations and variants from one hive fleet will begin popping up in another, galactically isolated hive fleet. Makes the Nids all the more deadly...


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## Hellhammer (May 1, 2011)

How before Horus kills Sanguinius, Sanguinius tries to REASON with him. Okay, a guy who led a rebellion against his "father" in the name of the chaos gods isn't going to just give up his rebellion, apologize, and walk away because you talked to him. That makes no sense whatsoever.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Speaking of chuckles, from a strictly fluff standpoint, Soulstorm commits quite a bit of fluff rape. That doesn't stop it from being hilarious, but still - _100 Baneblades_?!


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Protoss119 said:


> Speaking of chuckles, from a strictly fluff standpoint, Soulstorm commits quite a bit of fluff rape. That doesn't stop it from being hilarious, but still - _100 Baneblades_?!


Even more hilarious is how a guy can make _100 BANEBLADES GO MISSING_


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> Even more hilarious is how a guy can make _100 BANEBLADES GO MISSING_


_"Wait, where did all the Baneblades go? It has to take a tactical genius to do such a... *CREEEEED*!"_


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Doelago said:


> _"Wait, where did all the Baneblades go? It has to take a tactical genius to do such a... *CREEEEED*!"_


It's the only plausible explanation, really. They might have been in Stubb's wardrobe the whole time for all we know.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

This in all sacredness is just bad. Bad Matt Ward, Bad...


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)




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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Doelago said:


>


Ah, I was looking for this. Thanks. Dante would be pissed if I misplaced this memo. Need to get it back on the wall before he pops round this sunday. :good: 


Ahem! I mean, yes, how ridiculous... :security:


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## WarWolf88 (Apr 1, 2010)

Doelago said:


>


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## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

Protoss119 said:


> The 5E Codex basically has this in its description of the Aegis, but it is much more vague about it. Add to it that the Grey Knights now apparently have enough Terminator armor to outfit their entire chapter (no explanation for this is given), along with each one being similarly charged with the Aegis, and I see little reason to believe that the Grey Knights would need the blood of the Sisters of Battle to protect them from the Bloodtide in mind, body, or soul.


The widespread use of terminator armour links to the Grey Knights having Deimos as their dedicated forge-moon. That alone would actually be a pretty cool aspect to their fluff if it wasn't all for the OTT adage that Matt Ward gave that part - specifically having Deimos relocated to an orbit around Titan. I'm gonna guess it comes from the same kind of cuss that claims Titan was transported through the warp to hide it during the end of the heresy. Goes on my list of 'top ten tripe and moronic moments' from the new codex that I'd be happy to see retconned ASAP.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

This is sort of on topic but not...

Where in Codex:Blood Angels does it say they team up with the Necrons?

I know it's there but for the life of me I can't find it!


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## WarWolf88 (Apr 1, 2010)

normtheunsavoury said:


> This is sort of on topic but not...
> 
> Where in Codex:Blood Angels does it say they team up with the Necrons?
> 
> I know it's there but for the life of me I can't find it!












somebody in the DakkaDakka forums had found it...:read:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/358364.page


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Cheers for that, I knew it was in there somewhere!
Couldn't see the wood for the trees, as it were!


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

ThatOtherGuy said:


> This in all sacredness is just bad. Bad Matt Ward, Bad...



AH-HA!

Now THIS makes the bromance of BA/Necrons make sense. Put down your hate everyone. This smooths it all over.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Lord of the Night said:


> Rebuttal given.
> 
> 
> Lord of the Night


Still Disagree strongly with all 10, but I have very few "back at ya" to give.

1) It took a Hundred GKs, Logan and the SWs, and a shit ton of IG to beat back Angron, his BT gang, and WEs. Draigo apparently can take on Motarion and the ENTIRE Warp by himself.

2) Like I said Avatars are the equals of DPs and GDs, and they can be beaten thru EXTREME effort with a good size force at your back. The UMs were being out class in the fight and Calgar strolls up and Punks the War God. However the Super Hivetyrant SL beats Calgar and his posse of super friends like nothing. Nids get love, UMs get love, Eldar dont.

3) I still belive Dorn with his head on right given time would have been better than Guilliman, or the Idea of not a single appointed master in charge of everyone, but rather the Primarchs continue to work it out amongst themselves like they use to would have been better. Look at what this High Lords and Warmaster garbage has led the Imperium to now.

8) Like I said tho with all the Ward of Chaos and Psy Power Armor, Bone Carvings, and Holy Oath Papers of Awsomness they still needed to do a VERY chaos like blood sacrifice. Their suppose to be Water to the Fire, insteasd they fought Fire with Fire.

10.The Demiurg are praticaly Squats and with a little luck will make a comeback or at the least the models usable officialy with the new Tau Dex.

Also where is the damn fluff on the Heartslayer, I thought it was a Craftworld not Exodite World. Is that in IA?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> 1) It took a Hundred GKs, Logan and the SWs, and a shit ton of IG to beat back Angron, his BT gang, and WEs. Draigo apparently can take on Motarion and the ENTIRE Warp by himself.


Draigo as well as his GK brethren are not normal even by Astartes standards. And we don't know how the fight went.

Chaos powers/Tzen. let him into the realm most likely for their/his own purposes.



Warlock in Training said:


> 2) Like I said Avatars are the equals of DPs and GDs, and they can be beaten thru EXTREME effort with a good size force at your back. The UMs were being out class in the fight and Calgar strolls up and Punks the War God. However the Super Hivetyrant SL beats Calgar and his posse of super friends like nothing. Nids get love, UMs get love, Eldar dont.


The Avatars of Khaine are a mere fragment of his former self, hence why it is somewhat believable that an abnormally strong Astartes like Calgar could barely take him on.



Warlock in Training said:


> 3) I still belive Dorn with his head on right given time would have been better than Guilliman, or the Idea of not a single appointed master in charge of everyone, but rather the Primarchs continue to work it out amongst themselves like they use to would have been better. Look at what this High Lords and Warmaster garbage has led the Imperium to now.


The Imperium of the present day is doing much better than its 30k Imperium counterpart even without the presence of the Primarchs/Emperor. They've become more ruthless, survived countless alien, chaos threats (the latter of which did not exist back then) rebellions from within and have retaken/carved out a larger empire than in the past if I am not mistaken.



Warlock in Training said:


> 8) Like I said tho with all the Ward of Chaos and Psy Power Armor, Bone Carvings, and Holy Oath Papers of Awsomness they still needed to do a VERY chaos like blood sacrifice. Their suppose to be Water to the Fire, insteasd they fought Fire with Fire.


The Emperor sacrifices countless souls every day to bolster his power and he is the antithesis to Chaos.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

oiad said:


> The widespread use of terminator armour links to the Grey Knights having Deimos as their dedicated forge-moon. That alone would actually be a pretty cool aspect to their fluff if it wasn't all for the OTT adage that Matt Ward gave that part - specifically having Deimos relocated to an orbit around Titan. I'm gonna guess it comes from the same kind of cuss that claims Titan was transported through the warp to hide it during the end of the heresy. Goes on my list of 'top ten tripe and moronic moments' from the new codex that I'd be happy to see retconned ASAP.


Huh, I didn't notice that before, thanks. And I agree entirely.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Draigo as well as his GK brethren are not normal even by Astartes standards. And we don't know how the fight went.





The Battle of Kornovin said:


> Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he can enter the mortal realm once more.


So yes, we do know how the fight went - and according to Mr. Ward, it was quite one-sided.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Chaos powers/Tzen. let him into the realm most likely for their/his own purposes.


I maintain that the Dark Powers shot themselves in the foot when they decided to go through with M'kar's apparent curse to pull Draigo into the warp - which is why I believe it is no curse at all. Indeed, it must serve the Dark Powers to lose their favored daemons (and many thousands after that) and for their realms to be destroyed at the hands of this one man. Sure, they can build it all back, but that they should send daemons after him at all is proof that they consider him to be a threat. And if they consider him a threat, then why did they let him into the warp in the first place?

To support this point, I present the following exchange between Brother-Captain Stern and M'kachen, from the 3E Daemonhunters Codex:



> The thing was towering and serpent-necked with a hideous vulpine head and enormous wings that fanned the stinking odour of the creature's body towards the Grey Kniights. A nimbus of multi coloured light surrounded its flesh. It was a lord of Change: Worse, it was a lord of Change that Stern recognized.
> 
> "M'kachen," Stern breathed.
> 
> ...


Stern has trouble banishing M'kachen in the material world, but Draigo can apparently bury the daemon beneath the walls of the Inevitable City - he can defeat a daemon in the warp. The fact that Draigo is Grand Master does not help matters; rather, it speaks of a massive gap in power between the two ranks that should not be.

Yes, I know that ultimately, whatever Draigo does in the warp is meaningless. But the fact remains that he defeated Mortarion and his bodyguard with relative ease (according to Ward) and can not only survive in the warp but is wrecking shit up there. It's like squeezing a lemon with a Rube Goldberg machine; sure, you have your lemon juice, but you could have squeezed it yourself. The central theme that Draigo's actions are meaningless could have been established without jumping through so many hoops, without hyping him up to such ridiculous and unbelievable proportions.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Protoss119 said:


> So yes, we do know how the fight went - and according to Mr. Ward, it was quite one-sided.


Well regardless, Draigo is a Grey Knight and the Grand Master no less. 

A Grey Knight is something I think many people haven't quite understood yet as being something mind-bogglingly powerful and the Imperium's trump card against Chaos. 

I'm of the opinion that they possess a spiritual tie to the Emperor that is unmatched even compared to the loyalist Primarchs.



Protoss119 said:


> I maintain that the Dark Powers shot themselves in the foot when they decided to go through with M'kar's apparent curse to pull Draigo into the warp - which is why I believe it is no curse at all. Indeed, it must serve the Dark Powers to lose their favored daemons (and many thousands after that) and for their realms to be destroyed at the hands of this one man. Sure, they can build it all back, but that they should send daemons after him at all is proof that they consider him to be a threat. And if they consider him a threat, then why did they let him into the warp in the first place?


Draigo is not killing anything in the Warp. Nothing he slays can truly be killed.

So no, the Chaos powers are not losing anything and as it says, only the most diehard of Khorne's Daemons are attacking Draigo now after the lesser ones realized he is too powerful.

Draigo has essentially become a warp entity the moment he got sucked into the Warp and being somewhat of a reflection of the Emperor, and thus quite a destructive force over there.

_*"The Daemons he slew inevitably returned in new bodies, Nurgle's mighty jungles regrew from the ashes and even the tumbled walls of the Inevitable City righted themselves.

Through such acts, and many thousands more, did Kaldor Draigo forge a new legend but this time in a domain where legend is the stuff of life. Rarely now did Daemons haunt Draigo's footsteps. The Grey Knight had time and again proved his utter resistance to corruption, and had left so many thousands of slaughtered Daemons in his wake that now only the most crazed of Khorne's minions continued to seek his death."*_ *Page 39. Grey Knights Codex*

Perhaps with Draigo, the Emperor is paying special attention to him and is somehow empowering his lesser mirror image? 

Or as I've mentioned earlier, this is perhaps part of Tzentech's plans or another Chaos power for reasons unexplained because no one enters their realm without their permission. 

Maybe it's one method of Tzentech attempting to obtain all the pieces for his shattered crystal staff so he could be the most powerful Chaos power again since Draigo is a psyker and knows quite a few spells?

Also the quote you listed doesn't really make it sound like the GK in question focused all of his will and even then the Lord of Change was visibly effected despite his taunt afterwards. And Draigo is on another level it would seem in terms of his power.


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## nightfish (Feb 16, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Perhaps with Draigo, the Emperor is paying special attention to him and is somehow empowering his lesser mirror image?


Isn't he dead by now?

I dislike Maugan Ra, the Eldar 'Draigo' and daemon primarchs; I mean seriously they seem more concerned with landscaping their planets than fighting


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

nightfish said:


> Isn't he dead by now?
> 
> I dislike Maugan Ra, the Eldar 'Draigo' and daemon primarchs; I mean seriously they seem more concerned with landscaping their planets than fighting


The Emperor is not dead, in fact he is the only thing keeping the Imperium intact.

But is he a shell of his former self? Then yes absolutely.

All the Daemon Primarchs with the exception of Angron are actively involved in the Chaos power's *Great Game* and thus cannot be bothered with the _mortal concerns _of their past lives.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Well regardless, Draigo is a Grey Knight and the Grand Master no less.
> 
> A Grey Knight is something I think many people haven't quite understood yet as being something mind-bogglingly powerful and the Imperium's trump card against Chaos.
> 
> I'm of the opinion that they possess a spiritual tie to the Emperor that is unmatched even compared to the loyalist Primarchs.


But to the point where all of the Imperium's Chaos problems are solved? Can nothing defeat the Grey Knights? Do the Grey Knights even have to struggle? If they can't and they don't, it doesn't exactly make for an entertaining read. That is my beef with Ward's fluff in general; heroes, especially in 40k, do not _have_ to suffer pyrrhic victories _all the time_, but their struggle to earn that victory is what makes them so entertaining; look no further than Commissar Yarrick or, for an Astartes example, Chaplain Grimaldus for proof of that. I am not convinced that Matt Ward's new characters do so. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> Draigo is not killing anything in the Warp. Nothing he slays can truly be killed.
> 
> So no, the Chaos powers are not losing anything and as it says, only the most diehard of Khorne's Daemons are attacking Draigo now after the lesser ones realized he is too powerful.
> 
> ...


That's just it, though: he's not just on another level, but on several levels above him.



> It was always the same before he went into action. He did not like teleporting. He hated the sudden gut-twisting sense of dislocation, and the freezing cold, and the momentary touch of nightmare tentacles as his body was suddenly elsewhere.


Stern feels the effects of teleportation through the warp, and unless I can find otherwise the risks of being lost to the Warp over a teleporter mishap is still very real, despite the protective measures the Grey Knights may have enacted. But Draigo can apparently enter the Warp unprotected - because he is Supreme Grand Master?

That said, though, the possibility that Draigo is being used to find the missing parts of Tzeentch's staff is an intriguing one, and I don't mean to stomp all over them. The only issue is that Ward never explicitly states why Draigo can survive in the Warp when everyone else perishes. The only hint of an explanation comes in the form of:



> That anything could exist in the Realm of Chaos, yet be utterly immune to the will of the Chaos Gods, was a fresh impossibility in a domain riven with the impossible.


...which seems paradoxial to me; it is impossible for a mortal to survive unaided in the Warp, so now the Warp should be littered with mortals _because_ it is impossible? If that's so, is there any need for the Eye of Terror, where the Warp coexists with Realspace?

Like I said, though, I like the idea that Draigo is now a mirror of the Emperor's will or being manipulated by Tzeentch. The issue is not that Draigo's survival in the Warp is impossible - indeed, 40k is filled with impossibilities yet most of us still enjoy the setting - but that it is highly improbable. Either idea would do much to make Draigo's survival more probable, but as Matt Ward has not made use of either idea, his odds remain the same as any other Grey Knight stuck in the Warp, and his achievements clash with those odds.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Protoss119 said:


> But to the point where all of the Imperium's Chaos problems are solved? Can nothing defeat the Grey Knights? Do the Grey Knights even have to struggle? If they can't and they don't, it doesn't exactly make for an entertaining read.


Obviously they are not invincible. Droves of them die during every Daemonic incursion. 



Protoss119 said:


> That is my beef with Ward's fluff in general; heroes, especially in 40k, do not _have_ to suffer pyrrhic victories _all the time_, but their struggle to earn that victory is what makes them so entertaining; look no further than Commissar Yarrick or, for an Astartes example, Chaplain Grimaldus for proof of that. I am not convinced that Matt Ward's new characters do so.


You make it sound like even Matt Ward makes the GW come out of every engagement unscathed which is not entirely true.

They struggle just as much as any other gritty war hero in the WH40k universe, you just have to picture it/use what little fluff we have of them for now since there are no novels depicting the real Grey Knights as of yet (wait for ADB's crack at them).



Protoss119 said:


> That's just it, though: he's not just on another level, but on several levels above him.


He's the Grand-Master and as All GK's are psychic, Draigo finds himself now in the very realm where his powers are derived from hence his exponential increase in strength. He's become a warp entity and again who is to say someone isn't empowering him behind the scenes? Perhaps it's not even the Emperor.



Protoss119 said:


> Stern feels the effects of teleportation through the warp, and unless I can find otherwise the risks of being lost to the Warp over a teleporter mishap is still very real, despite the protective measures the Grey Knights may have enacted. But Draigo can apparently enter the Warp unprotected - because he is Supreme Grand Master?


The only logical conclusion I can come up with is that a Chaos power let him in and most likely Tzentech given his nature and Draigo's placement in the warp was due to a curse from one of Tzentech's minions. 

I'm sure he no longer even has a physical body in the Warp, he's become a spirit, made of the same fabric that makes up a Daemon.



Protoss119 said:


> That said, though, the possibility that Draigo is being used to find the missing parts of Tzeentch's staff is an intriguing one, and I don't mean to stomp all over them.


It's something that just came to me randomly, there's nothing conclusive at all to even suggest the idea.



Protoss119 said:


> The only issue is that Ward never explicitly states why Draigo can survive in the Warp when everyone else perishes. The only hint of an explanation comes in the form of:
> 
> ...which seems paradoxial to me; it is impossible for a mortal to survive unaided in the Warp, so now the Warp should be littered with mortals _because_ it is impossible? If that's so, is there any need for the Eye of Terror, where the Warp coexists with Realspace?


As I said, only explanation that seems feasible is that a Chaos power let him in and enabled him to survive in its realm.



Protoss119 said:


> Like I said, though, I like the idea that Draigo is now a mirror of the Emperor's will or being manipulated by Tzeentch. The issue is not that Draigo's survival in the Warp is impossible - indeed, 40k is filled with impossibilities yet most of us still enjoy the setting - but that it is highly improbable. Either idea would do much to make Draigo's survival more probable, but as Matt Ward has not made use of either idea, his odds remain the same as any other Grey Knight stuck in the Warp, and his achievements clash with those odds.


You say his survival in the warp isn't impossible given the nature of the WH40k universe then go on to say it's highly unlikely? Not sure what you're getting at.

Has any other GK other than Draigo entered the warp accidentally or even intentionally? I think he's the only mortal to have done so.

And going off topic for a bit, I don't know why some people have issues with the notion that the Chaos powers aren't as invincible or fail proof as we are led to believe. 

The quote you mentioned helps for it pushes the idea that nothing is stable within the realm of chaos, not even the absolute control Chaos has over the mortal races. 

Malice, the fifth Chaos power if you consider him as being canon, also is another sign that the reign of Chaos, if it is truly governed by Chaotic beings, cannot remain the way it is forever.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

The Battles between Ghazghkull and the Dark Angels on Piscina IV. In the DA codex the Dark Angels win despite horrific losses. In the Ork codex, Ghazghkull pounds them again and again until he eventually gets bored and goes back to Armageddon, leaving Nazdreg to finish the war on Piscina IV.

So which is it GW?


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> You say his survival in the warp isn't impossible given the nature of the WH40k universe then go on to say it's highly unlikely? Not sure what you're getting at.
> 
> Has any other GK other than Draigo entered the warp accidentally or even intentionally? I think he's the only mortal to have done so.


40k is filled with impossibilities, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't stay consistent with itself is what I mean. Thus, when I see that Draigo or any mortal in general can survive in the Warp without any prior changing of the odds to favor him more, I am apt to disbelieve it. That he is a pawn of Tzeentch or the Dark Powers in general or that he is now a warp entity can help push the odds in his favor, but like I said, Ward doesn't provide an explanation. It could be anything, or it could be nothing, that is sustaining Draigo's presence in the Warp, but I think it is Matt Ward's reputation in the eyes of many as a fanboy and a tool that is causing people to think the latter. Given his whole "Draigo can make it happen!!!!1one" schtick on his page on the GW site, personally I don't think that reputation is unjustified.



Malus Darkblade said:


> The quote you mentioned helps for it pushes the idea that nothing is stable within the realm of chaos, not even the absolute control Chaos has over the mortal races.


I don't think Chaos has much to do with it, actually. The Immaterium just exists in a wholly different dimension from realspace, composed entirely of psychic energy, without any laws of physics or reality to call its own; mortals and things of realspace simply cannot exist there unless they're somewhere where the Warp and realspace co-exist like the Eye of Terror. The powers of Chaos are dominant for another reason entirely.


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## sethgabriel1990 (Sep 21, 2010)

how about the fact that there are no loyal Primarchs left...?

I know the fluff about Corax/Vulkan/Russ etc. going off into the eye of terror/maelstrom whatever to fight the bad guys for eternity is bandied around, but come on, why didnt they stay? or take their legions with them? Having just recently re-read 'Salamander', Vulkan seems to have left clues within his tome of fire and all that, but is there any chance that any of them are still kicking around? I know that Lion el'Johnson is meant to be asleep or something, and some are saying that Guilliman is slowly recoveriung in his stasis field, (which makes no sense whatsoever), so why wouldnt one of the just come forward to their respective legions? And even if they did, wouldnt they have the Inquisition all over their ass for being in the eye or wherever for this long?

just seems a bit fishy to me, although I do understand that it keeps people interested...kudos to GW for keeping everyone on their toes.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

The Sullen One said:


> The Battles between Ghazghkull and the Dark Angels on Piscina IV. In the DA codex the Dark Angels win despite horrific losses. In the Ork codex, Ghazghkull pounds them again and again until he eventually gets bored and goes back to Armageddon, leaving Nazdreg to finish the war on Piscina IV.
> 
> So which is it GW?


Both? Sounds to me that if Ghazghkull decided to leave and the Dark Angels subsequently beat Nazdreg, it would fulfill both criteria.

"The Purging of Kadillus" seems to have taken a more pro-Dark Angel view, though.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

As a Chaos Daemons player who just finished reading the story of Draigo from the Grey Knights Codex, I am not very happy, not one bit.


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## Angelis Mortis (Mar 7, 2011)

the worse fluff ive read is calgar holding some gate all day and night on his own against some orks 
total BS in my opinion


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Angelis Mortis said:


> the worse fluff ive read is calgar holding some gate all day and night on his own against some orks
> total BS in my opinion


Depends on the Orks he was fighting. A bunch of boyz armed with choppers? Plus if the gate is narrow enough he may only have to fight 3-4 of them at a time. Easy enough if he was wearing Termie armor. Everything would bounce off.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Not really. He has a pair of powerfists! Therefore he strikes last plus you get a lot of attacks from Orks.


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