# Chaos Marines are too overpowered



## chrisman 007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Just played against a friend who collects chaos, and was shocked by the result. I carefully set up lines of guardsmen, following the guy at the shops every word. But then he infiltrated his tzeench (I think) and some Ork kommandos (Yes he had orks for some strange reason). In short, he tore me to peices:shok:. In one turn. With two units:shok:. Only losing 5 men:shok:. I mean, come on, even his standard infantry grunts had an 3+ invunreble! Is it that he's bending the rules, or is it that chaos is too overpowered? The point of the game is so we can have fun, so why make games so unbalanced.

Thanks for listening forum users


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

Ork Kommandos and 3+ Invulnerables?? Thats not in the chaos codex... sounds like you were set up to loose. You have been had. Next time you see those people kick them in the nuts.


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## angels of fire (Dec 4, 2007)

I agree its not chaos being overpowered its that guy bending the rules and being an ass... give him a good kick in the balls :biggrin:


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

chrisman 007 said:


> Just played against a friend who collects chaos, and was shocked by the result. I carefully set up lines of guardsmen, following the guy at the shops every word. But then he infiltrated his tzeench (I think) and some Ork kommandos (Yes he had orks for some strange reason). In short, he tore me to peices:shok:. In one turn. With two units:shok:. Only losing 5 men:shok:. I mean, come on, even his standard infantry grunts had an 3+ invunreble! Is it that he's bending the rules, or is it that chaos is too overpowered? The point of the game is so we can have fun, so why make games so unbalance.
> 
> Thanks for listening forum users



let me guess... he just happened to forget his codex at home eh?opcorn:

Meh...I never worry about that.... 


I own my own copy of the current codicies.

Two reasons:

Know Thy Enemy.

Douchebags like him.


Thousand Sons (Tzeentch) are 4+ invulnerable, but they do get AP3 bolters)

no, ork kommandos have nothing to do with chaos. He is full of shit.

In fact, just tell me where to find this guy, I'll kick him in the ass myself...


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Blatant cheating on his part. I would never play that person again.


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## Morgal (Sep 26, 2007)

Well i'm a bit more forgiving than most.
It seems he played 2 armies.

Chaos is one army and Orks another. To play both he needs to get on his knees and ask for your permission. Also by plaing chaos and Orks he needs an HQ for both, and 2 troops for both. So he should not have been able to build a good list.

Also Chaos space marines are tough, but as guard you should out number him by a fair bit. Also to infiltrate he needs to be more than 12" away, he could not assault you first turn unless he cheated. So the first turn should have been you shooting the bejeezus out of him. turn 2 i can see him being in combat.
With out more details it's hard to say but sounds like the guy was sort of a jerk.

Also what was the point limit?

Also i read the guys advice you where given while good it's not perfect. 
Some things he missed.

Guard need cover. We don't have the armor space marines do so we need to hide in tree's. You noticed how his bolters don't let you get your 5+ save yet he always get's his 3+?
Even the odds in cover you can get a 4 or a 5+ save, while not as good your paying far less points per model. So keep your troops in cover if you can, armies like space marines and such don't need to worry as much about cover.


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## Slainsoldier (Dec 26, 2007)

Give him a taste of his own medicine. Double up on him with Tau and Necrons or something equally sad, and when he cries, tell him to produce a codex that says you cannot, and that he can.


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## Morgal (Sep 26, 2007)

Enough bashing, lets assume this is a friendly game and both are new.

Your friend can not field 2 armies, the reason for this is most armies have a weakness. by using 2 armies he has no weaknesses

I mentioned he can not assault in turn one, this is a fact because no unit can assault in turn one. all units that infiltrate can only move 6" and charge 6" If he was 12" away he would be a micro millimeter away because he could not be closer. Same for fast movers.

He went through all your units with 2 units? again i ask how many points game was this?

Also if you want help on your list feel free to post it, also on the other thread i posted some of my personal thought on that list.


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## A Soporific (Nov 30, 2007)

No, just use stats for the Tau rifle for your Guardsmen's weapons and give them all a 5+ invul from Cyber Enhancement. Oh, and power weapons for all, you do get them cheap as is. Say that you're using "Master Xenos-Fighter" or "Inquisitiorial Elite" Special Rules from a White Dwarf you don't have.


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## The Deserter (May 28, 2007)

It sounds like he was killing you with orks more than chaos. And besides I have the chaos codex. Does anyone else here know how he even manged to get orks on the table? Chaos are powerfull but I have never once beaten my best friend with them. I agree with Bishop120 and Wrathlord.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

I don't agree with giving him a taste of his own medicine and stuff. Why set up another silly game with cheating rules? Just kick him in the nuts like other people have said. That's what I'd do.

Katie D


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## Imperial Dragon (Dec 22, 2007)

i agree with all the people about kicking somewhere


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## Morgal (Sep 26, 2007)

Your all fairly violent if both players are new it may have been blantant cheeting or a misunderstanding of the rules.

Maybe on brought 1500 points the other 1000...it would look fine to the novice player..1500 chaos looks right compared to 1000ig if you ignore stats.
he may have also been blatantly unaware of force organization and rules....

they may have just said lets play with what we have.

Kicking is not good advice.

what is good advice.

Determine this "friends" experience level and familiarize yourself with the rules

If he is inexperienced and cheated by acedent inform him, if he is experienced then confront him or refuse to play a another game.

the broblem with both of these is it seems he is a friend and your gaming may be limited if you turn down a foe you could possibly play with....but if he's the sort who only cares about winning maybe you don't want to play with him.

Also posting more information on the game may help us define the problem and possibly help.

A great thing to do is read the tacticas on various web sites, i have read almost all of them and while each is different there is tips you can gain from them. Also post your army list and we can help fine tune it, we can also verify his if you post it to insure it's legan ig you feel you need to question that.

Also no chaso is not overpowered. nor is IG underpowered.

However they are vastly different forces. Chaos is a good all around army depending on few strong units., IG depend on mass numbers and are typically better at range combat.


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## Sycoa (Dec 7, 2007)

Well, I just lost a 1500pt game versus Chaos tonight. I don't know about them being overpowered, however, the terminators I am iffy about...(Power weapons for all of them come standard? What?)

However, I didn't gear my list towards Chaos w/ vehicles, just anti-troop, so I can't really blame anything. All I can say is they just might need a tiny bit toning down? :dunno:


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## Triumph Of Man (Dec 27, 2007)

Sycoa said:


> Well, I just lost a 1500pt game versus Chaos tonight. I don't know about them being overpowered, however, the terminators I am iffy about...(Power weapons for all of them come standard? What?)


Well, loyalists come with fists standard, which are more expensive. Chaos Termies are cheaper base, so it's not that surprising they've got the cheaper CC weapon.


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## Morgal (Sep 26, 2007)

meh 11 point rough riders show em who's boss.
"invulnerable this mwhahahahahaha."


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## The Deserter (May 28, 2007)

From what I've read It might have actually been an Apocalyspe game, if so most of it would have been legal. If not this friend is a cheating scum and I would go for the kicking.


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## SyNide (Nov 24, 2007)

Lol, Precisely Deserter.

It could have been an apoc game.

Anyway, chaos isn't overpowered, pretty strong i'll admit but overpowered? Nah. Especially not for IG.


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## jeppax (Jan 2, 2008)

I have played chaos a longer time of my colecting and i have never won a real game just some very smal ''just kill time games'' was the only thing that iwe won so the chaos aren't owerpowered.:wink:


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## Urban Knight (Nov 13, 2007)

If I were you I would only play people who have their codex with them and if something seems over powered ask them to show you the rule.

if they don't have their codex to hand then tell them they can't do it.


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## SyNide (Nov 24, 2007)

Urban Knight said:


> if they don't have their codex to hand then tell them they can't do it.


Thats rather bitchy IMO. You are playing a game, and should act accordingly, what do you gain from cheating anyway? So what if your opponent does something you don't like or didn't know about? It serves you right for not knowing your rules and not knowing your enemy. Stopping people from doing stuff on the basis of "oh, i don't think you can do that, because you don't have your codex" is rather lame and immature. If you lost because of that rule, so freaking what?! Grow up, adapt and counter, thats the way of warfare, and it's the way of life.


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## chrisman 007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks guys for all your support. Yeah, I probably won't be playing against him for some time. Anyway, thanks to A Soporific I've got a few surprises in store for him...


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## SyNide (Nov 24, 2007)

Chrisman, i say play with the bugger, read his codex first and make sure you're not playing apocalypse. Learn to beat chaos instead of whining about it.


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## veteran1759 (Jan 4, 2008)

I agree with Morgal. I have been playing chaos for quite a while now and I have no idea how he managed to get 3+ invenerable, the best is 4+ with Tzeentch dedicated characters as to orks if you agree then thats fine as the game is all about friends having fun not who is the best and wins all the time. My 2 armies have mixed results all the time, sometime its just bad tactics but most just bad dice rolls, but that is all part of the game, as you get more experience playing and so do your friends you'll start seeing weird things happening on the board like your simple guards foot slogger taking down a champion of chaos, any way seek advice on here on improving your army and getting advice on the rules but more impotantly enjoy!


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## chrisman 007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Ok, It seems that i'm getting a kicking for this thread, so i'm going to clear some obscure things up. Yes we both had our codexes, and when I saw some obscure 3+ invulnerable, he got his codex and showed me the appropriate entry. This is why I said chaos marines are too overpowered.


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## veteran1759 (Jan 4, 2008)

As I said its all about fun, yet if you could tell me where in the codex 3+ invunerable is I would appreciate it as my CSM keeping getting their arses kicked by 'nids so they can't be that overpowered


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## chrisman 007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Morgal said:


> He went through all your units with 2 units? again i ask how many points game was this?
> 
> Also if you want help on your list feel free to post it, also on the other thread i posted some of my personal thought on that list.


Okay Morgal, the point limit was about 1100 pts or so, and he got into combat and just butchered me. Need I say more?

My army list was as follows:

1 infantry platoon (5 squads, 1 with Lascannon, 1 with Missile Launcher, 2 with Autocannons. All with flamer and Grenade Launcher)

1 Basilisk

1 Leman Russ (Lascannon, Pintle stubber and Side Heavy Bolters)

1 Chimera (Pintle Stubber, Heavy Flamer) w/ storm troopers (Grenade Launcher and Flamer, storm trooper Vet. Sgt)

command squad with heroic senior officer, meltagun, medic, standard, dead guy (does he count?)

I hope that would suffice. Again, I don't know the point totals (we didn't have a calculator handy).


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## chrisman 007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Ok I'm very sorry if people haven't understood everything. it was my first thread ever on heresy. As for the orks, I don't know why he had them on, he wanted to try them out. and to avoid a long argument I gave in.


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## chrisman 007 (Jan 3, 2008)

veteran1759, I would tell you, but I don't know the entry. sorry.


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## Tiberius (Dec 15, 2007)

chrisman 007 said:


> Ok, It seems that i'm getting a kicking for this thread, so i'm going to clear some obscure things up. Yes we both had our codexes, and when I saw some obscure 3+ invulnerable, he got his codex and showed me the appropriate entry. This is why I said chaos marines are too overpowered.


Your friend is reading things incorrectly. The Mark of Tzeentch does improve an invunerable by +1, to someone who already has one. However Thousands Sons have this mark already, and cannot carry an icon to improve it. This would be the only combination that could be wrongly used to get a 3+ invunerable save.


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## annhwi (Dec 21, 2007)

Closest he could get is Infilitrating Chosen Marines with the Icon of Tzeench. but thats only a 5+ invuln save. And there is no orc allies unless this is a game of Apocalypse...


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## chrisman 007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Ok just worked something out. I am fairly new (only started colleting about 2 months ago, though i'm fairly experienced). He's been playing for 2 years. Hmm. I think he's using my noobiness to cheat. Thanks for all your help and support (and fair enough to all those post that said to stop whining).


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## chrisman 007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Tiberius said:


> Your friend is reading things incorrectly. The Mark of Tzeentch does improve an invunerable by +1, to someone who already has one. However Thousands Sons have this mark already, and cannot carry an icon to improve it. This would be the only combination that could be wrongly used to get a 3+ invunerable save.


OH, now I get it. Thanks mate. As I said earlier, I'm fairly new, so kinda prone top not knowing the rules of by heart.


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## chrisman 007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Ok, thanks to a combination of everyone's posts, i am now armed to the teeth to sop him cheating. Thanks.


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## Firewolf (Jan 22, 2007)

>> Twats like the arse you played piss me off. I know a dude who had started playin 40k, some numb-nut pricks started cheating against him, in a GW store, staff wouldn't step in and help, so he stopped playin. 

>> If dude tries to cheat you again, kick him in the nuts and burn his codex...well, dont burn his dex, but you get what I mean.


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## Captain Micha (Nov 2, 2007)

The guy was a cheat. Whether because he's an idiot, or because he's a loser douche bag, remains to be determined based off of the information you gave. Last I checked orks and chaos are not the same army. (among the other things he did)


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

Thousand Sons can't infiltrate either in fact nothing in chaos can infiltrate any more
I think


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## Triumph Of Man (Dec 27, 2007)

Only Chosen, but that's not much to brag about. And certainly sucks balls if before you ran an infiltrator heavy army.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Cheating is odd. My own advice would be not to play this guy again. You can learn all the reasons why he was cheating this time but that doesn’t stop him cheating in different ways in future. If he wants to cheat, don’t waste your time playing him.

I had a really odd example of this happening to me, in that the guy I was playing was a GW store manager and I was playing in the store attached to his shop. Many times in the course of the game he tried to do things that were against the rules. Each time it happened he would insist that I was wrong, despite me showing him the rules in the codex (sometimes his own one) and the BBB. 

He kept calling other people over to make rulings (interrupting their games) and nobody ever agreed with him. Eventually he conceded the game and went off in a huff.

Anyway I guess it illustrates that this sort of thing happens at all levels. This guy knew I’d been playing the game forever and was a regular tournament player, but still tried to cheat even though it couldn’t have worked on me. I found out later that he had a reputation for it and lots of people already refused to play him. I don’t understand the motivation for cheating myself, but when you find it in other people you can just avoid them.

Always remember that it’s totally ok to ask to see the other guy’s codex, especially when you are new to the game. I’d recommend that you did that in all cases just to get a feel for different armies, but especially if something seems wrong. IT may even be that the other guy is playing it wrong without realising it, which happens a lot.


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## chrisman 007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Ok, comefronted him at school about the whole cheating incident and he said "Made few mistakes." Fair enough. At wargames club we played against a tyranid and orks player and we all had a right laugh. So thats all it was, just a slip up of the codex. Problem solved. Thanks for your help forum users!


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Triumph Of Man said:


> Only Chosen, but that's not much to brag about. And certainly sucks balls if before you ran an infiltrator heavy army.


I did. Since my Tsons sucked I tended to run a Black Legion list with 3-4 8 man infiltrating troop squads. It sucks to have lost that but having my Tsons back makes up for it .


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## Ice Dragon (Jan 8, 2008)

*Chaos arn't too overpowered*

i'm a choas marrin collector and i collect space marines and this is a lode of rubbith it is just to funding an excuse to beable to use his orks and chaos so if he challanges u again if i'm there i will help woop his ass with my marrins


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

If any of you have advice on how to make my chaos marines overpowered, do tell : D


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## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

you got had good and propper. chaos and orks come on thats a joke you should have asked to see their list and the codex they wrote it from


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

LordWaffles: cheat to win!


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