# Marines so easy to turn?



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

So this has been bugging me for a while. So Huron's Red Corsairs are raiding a Space Wolves cruiser. Several boarding torpedoes crash into the ship and quickly take over the bridge. Things go from bad to worse when Huron's battle barge moves in to unleash its load of Chaos Marines.

Out numbered, several Space Wolves on the starboard gunnery attack their brother Wolves and swear loyalty to Huron.

I mean, being out numbered by 20:1 is nothing to sneeze at, but I thought better of the Space Wolves. Not only giving up their oaths to Russ and the Emperor, but hacking down their brothers? Seems slightly out of character. Particularly for the fierce (clinically insane, per Torgaddon) Space Wolves.


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## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

Im pretty sure they were bridge crew, Huron also picked up their Command, Gnyrl (Think) Bluetooth and crushed him. Also don't forget Blackheart managed to corrupt something like four Chapters im sure he knows what to do:victory:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Huron Blackheart is officially the worst ever character ever created for a Games Workshop faction. Even Valten is better.


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## Praetorian (Sep 16, 2009)

I find alot of the Chaos hero's to be completey ridiculous and over-powered. Abbaddon the Despoiler? I sh*t 'em.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Praetorian said:


> I find alot of the Chaos hero's to be completey ridiculous and over-powered. Abbaddon the Despoiler? I sh*t 'em.


I think Chaos characters have to be overpowered, considering the fact that they have, in some cases, served their Gods for millenia. In the cases of Kharn and Ahriman, 10,000 years of offering up skulls and souls will earn them some sort of reward that will raise them above mere mortals. 

Abbadon was Horus's right hand man. Do you think he should still have the same stats as a lowly chapter master? What's the point in giving your soul to chaos if they don't soup you up a bit.


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## Praetorian (Sep 16, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> I think Chaos characters have to be overpowered, considering the fact that they have, in some cases, served their Gods for millenia. In the cases of Kharn and Ahriman, 10,000 years of offering up skulls and souls will earn them some sort of reward that will raise them above mere mortals.
> 
> Abbadon was Horus's right hand man. Do you think he should still have the same stats as a lowly chapter master? What's the point in giving your soul to chaos if they don't soup you up a bit.


Yeah good point, and I see with Ahriman and Kharn why they are so powerful but there are such ridiculous characters like Typhus which are, to me, incredibly pointless. 

Btw I thought Abbadon was a clone of Horus, and therefore never met him?


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## Prothor Ironfist (Sep 27, 2009)

Praetorian said:


> Yeah good point, and I see with Ahriman and Kharn why they are so powerful but there are such ridiculous characters like Typhus which are, to me, incredibly pointless.
> 
> Btw I thought Abbadon was a clone of Horus, and therefore never met him?


No he was captain of The Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus first company and a member of the mournival he was basically horus' right hand man.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Yeah Abadon = luna wolves/sons of horus first captain and saw horus as a father if i remember right...Where did the space wolf vs space wolf come from?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Huron Blackheart is officially the worst ever character ever created for a Games Workshop faction. Even Valten is better.


I totally disagree with that. Hes a horrible Stat Model with very poor abilities in game and cost more than hes worth. Fluff wise hes a very capable commander and still large unknown. Theres no books to define him and alot of short bits of the Badab War. So I ask how hes the worst character? Theres little to nothing on him! But he does have the largest Fleet in the Maelstrom. Hes a capable tatiction. Hes also able to convert other SMs to his side easily. 



Khorne's Fist said:


> I think Chaos characters have to be overpowered, considering the fact that they have, in some cases, served their Gods for millenia. In the cases of Kharn and Ahriman, 10,000 years of offering up skulls and souls will earn them some sort of reward that will raise them above mere mortals.
> 
> Abbadon was Horus's right hand man. Do you think he should still have the same stats as a lowly chapter master? What's the point in giving your soul to chaos if they don't soup you up a bit.


Here, here. Seriously in my veiw Chaos Characters are underpowered when compared to the mass of uber strong characters out there for SMs. Chaos Players have 6 Characters...... 6......thats all. Now SMs have all the Codex Characters, Space Wolves Characters, Dark Angel, Blood Angel, and Black Templars Characters. Theres like 20 Characters for Space Marines, and yet people bitch about Chaoses 6, and then only Kharn and Abbaddon is worth their pts. 

As for the Space Wolves out of Character. Very much no. SWs are the most individual glory seekers of any SM Chapter. There the most corruptable short of Dark Angels and some other Chapters. Huron had the Lamenators, Mantis Warriors, and Excecutioners Chapters under his sway. Then theres the mutiple renegade warbands that joined as well. In character.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Praetorian said:


> Yeah good point, and I see with Ahriman and Kharn why they are so powerful but there are such ridiculous characters like Typhus which are, to me, incredibly pointless.


Why is Typhus a ridiculous character? He was the First Captain of the Death Guard during the Great Crusade and single-handedly forced not only his primarch; Mortarion but the vast majority of his legion into Nurgle worship.

Since the Horus Heresy he has caused the deaths of Trillions and is the Herald of a Chaos God. Ridiculous? I think not.



Praetorian said:


> Btw I thought Abbadon was a clone of Horus, and therefore never met him?


As others have pointed out, No miles off. Try checking out the Horus Heresy series novels, some good reads and will increase your knowledge of the 40k background.



hailene said:


> but I thought better of the Space Wolves. Not only giving up their oaths to Russ and the Emperor, but hacking down their brothers? Seems slightly out of character. Particularly for the fierce (clinically insane, per Torgaddon) Space Wolves.


Remember though that Astartes, beneath all of the training, oaths, power armour and muscle bulk are still Humans at heart. They carry the same weaknesses in their heart as 'ordinary' Men.

I'll tell you a betrayal that was the most out of character in the history of the Imperium; Horus. Did anyone think (during the Great Crusade) that Horus would ever betray the Emperor? It was the most inconcievable thing to the Imperium, but it happened.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Let's backtrack a bit.

I can't find anything that says Huron is a Chaos Space Marine. Traitor? Yes. Chaos worshiper? No.

So toss out all the "He corrupted them..." business out the window.

No, it wasn't the bridge crew. It was Space Marines on the starboard gunnery deck.

I have to agree that Huron seems...incomplete. How on earth did he manage to convince the other chapters to fight on his side against the Imperium? And for several years? You'd think the High Lords of Inquisition would have sent their chapter masters a text or dropped a phone call telling them to desist. Even if Huron told them it was lies, I'm sure that there would be sufficient proof, eventually, that the orders were legitimate. Toss in that it was already clear that Huron was a pirate lord and I would imagine the other chapters should have known something was up.

And the same weakness as human hearts? Sure. Corruptible by Chaos. Yeah. But hacking down their brothers to save their own lives? Space Wolves? The ones whose junior members need to be restrained from hurling themselves against hopeless odds? The ones who will literally tear their opponents apart by their teeth if necessary? 

It seems definitely odd that something as little as being out numbered (something that Space Marines are often used to) would cause them to turn traitor. Because either way, as blood claws they need to be held back and checked by a senior wolf in combat, regardless of the odds. Or they themselves were veterans and it seems odd that veterans would turn so easily.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

hailene said:


> Let's backtrack a bit.
> 
> I can't find anything that says Huron is a Chaos Space Marine. Traitor? Yes. Chaos worshiper? No.
> 
> So toss out all the "He corrupted them..." business out the window.


Well I think its a given that hes a Chaos Space Marine. Started out as your normal pirate lord/rebel but eventually fell/turned to Chaos. I mean he does live in the Maelstrom, how can a person live in a Permenant Warp Rift and not start worshipping Chaos. (13th Company excluded!)

Or it may have been Chaos that caused him to rebel in the first place.




hailene said:


> I have to agree that Huron seems...incomplete. How on earth did he manage to convince the other chapters to fight on his side against the Imperium? And for several years? You'd think the High Lords of Inquisition would have sent their chapter masters a text or dropped a phone call telling them to desist. Even if Huron told them it was lies, I'm sure that there would be sufficient proof, eventually, that the orders were legitimate. Toss in that it was already clear that Huron was a pirate lord and I would imagine the other chapters should have known something was up.


Well we obviously don't know the whole story and all the 'in's and out's'. But were told that he convinced them to turn against the Imperium, so he did somehow.



hailene said:


> And the same weakness as human hearts? Sure. Corruptible by Chaos. Yeah. But hacking down their brothers to save their own lives? Space Wolves? The ones whose junior members need to be restrained from hurling themselves against hopeless odds? The ones who will literally tear their opponents apart by their teeth if necessary?
> 
> It seems definitely odd that something as little as being out numbered (something that Space Marines are often used to) would cause them to turn traitor. Because either way, as blood claws they need to be held back and checked by a senior wolf in combat, regardless of the odds. Or they themselves were veterans and it seems odd that veterans would turn so easily.



Well maybe they were already tainted or corrupted somehow? I havn't got my Chaos Marine Codex on me (Im at University now) so I don't know the exact wording of the fluff - but does it merely say that they turned traitor because they were outnumbered? I dont think it does, could be wrong though.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

The thing is, though, he doesn't have a single mark of Chaos on him. Or any Chaos gear. And there's no mention of his marines actually turning to any of the gods.

And that's the thing. It gives no reason in particular why they turned. The paragraphs mentions that Huron has "overwhelming numbers on his side now." While he had taken over most of the ship, the starboard side seemed that they might be able to hold out but "Then without warning, several of the Space Wolves turned on their brethren, attacking them from behind before surrendering to the mercy of the Blood Reaver."


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## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Here, here. Seriously in my veiw Chaos Characters are underpowered when compared to the mass of uber strong characters out there for SMs. Chaos Players have 6 Characters...... 6......thats all. Now SMs have all the Codex Characters, Space Wolves Characters, Dark Angel, Blood Angel, and Black Templars Characters. Theres like 20 Characters for Space Marines, and yet people bitch about Chaoses 6, and then only Kharn and Abbaddon is worth their pts.


I do hope you mean that _only_ the characters in the chaos codex are underpowered. If you, for a momment think that chaos is statistically inferior to SM or other armies than you, sir, are playing the wrong game.

I need only point to the Thousand Sons for eveidence. Take Chaos Marines, give them bolts that pierce straight through power armor, a better invulnerbale save than terminators, slow and purposeful so they can always fire on the move, and a freakin sorceror instead of an aspiring champ.

Also consider that a full squad of Thousand Sons costs only 20 points more than a full squad of CSM with heavy weapons included. 

Chaos has far more options that SM players do for force composition, and while they may have fewer named characters to choose from, the choices are always obvious and offer FAR more advantages: Abbadon is broken as all hell, even with the small nerfs in the 5th ed. They have The absolute best ranged troop choice in the Thousand Sons, and arguably the best mellee when chosing between Possesed squads and Khorne Berzerkers.

now feild that against SM with the only choice being tactical marines and assault marines, and tell me how _underpowered_ chaos is.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

hailene said:


> The thing is, though, he doesn't have a single mark of Chaos on him. Or any Chaos gear. And there's no mention of his marines actually turning to any of the gods.


I guess him surviving death, and then fighting when he should been recovering for months on the third day means nothing. I guess that pet DAEMON called his Hamaydra that gives him Chaos Psychic Powers is commonoly given to SM Chapter Masters huh? I also guess his Chaosified CSM's are not Chaos ethier. Living in the Maelstrom means nothing ethier. Not to mention he has clear cut Chaos Warbands in his fleet.



Prince Endymion said:


> I do hope you mean that _only_ the characters in the chaos codex are underpowered. If you, for a momment think that chaos is statistically inferior to SM or other armies than you, sir, are playing the wrong game.
> 
> I need only point to the Thousand Sons for eveidence. Take Chaos Marines, give them bolts that pierce straight through power armor, a better invulnerbale save than terminators, slow and purposeful so they can always fire on the move, and a freakin sorceror instead of an aspiring champ.
> 
> ...



Im not saying at all the Cult Troops, Termies, CSMs/Chosen, or Oblits are usless. However the Raptors, Possessed, Greater Deamons, Lesser Deamons, Bikes, Havoks, and generic plane old Dull LRs (with Lascannons and a HB) are not good at all. Even the Chaos Lords are worthless with no special or useful advantages and Sorcerors are lacking too. DPs are the only way to go. 
TS are lame against Hordy Armies. There infact the hardest to use right. Thats why all Competitive list have Plague Marines, Noise Marines, and Beserkers. No Chaos Marines or T. Sons. Not to say their usless at all but there only useful against ME armies. I take Sonic Blasters and a Blast Master over TS sqaud in a range battle. 

Again the only Characters (SC) worth their pts are Kharn and Abbaddon. Typhus and Ahriman can be worth his pts but never in a small game. Ever.As for Huron (sigh), Fabious, and Lucious are not worth the Pts as DPs are far better options for a HQ. Its sad but true. T

he 4th Edition was WAY Better in the Wargear Section and Special Abilities of units like Raptors and types of Deamons. Now its dull and only certain units are good with no Books of Chaos, Wargear, Deamons, or unique abilities for certain units and Legions. Oh well.


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## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

You must be playing 4th Ed then.

In 5th Ed I have yet to see a player use Plague Marines, sinse they took the shaft while TS got a mega boost. Noise Marines are nice, but pricey, and the 1 Blastmaster per squad can't compete with the damage output of a while squad of TS with a freakin sorceror (Bolt of Change?).

Khorne Berzerkers are still insane, and the possessed marines got a nice boost as well. 

Its true that the Chaos LR has fewer eoptions for weapons than SM ones, but um, they can have daemonic upgrades or be possessed (goodbye 1/3 of the damage rolls). 

Most people don't use Kharn unless they are playing a singularly melee army sinse he is difficult to control, for the same reason verteran players prefer Defilers to Chaos Dreads. 

Abaddon is broken as hell, but costs more than a freakin LR point wise, and you can't get a better Psyker in your force than Ahriman. Typhus is also hard to compete with (but was better in 4th Ed).

I suggest you look over the 5th Ed Codex again. a LOT changed and Chaos is far more versatile, and has really changed. The Mark of Nurgle is all but worthless, and the Mark of Tzeentch is the obvious choice for any undivided army.


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

Prince Endymion said:


> You must be playing 4th Ed then.
> 
> In 5th Ed I have yet to see a player use Plague Marines, sinse they took the shaft while TS got a mega boost. Noise Marines are nice, but pricey, and the 1 Blastmaster per squad can't compete with the damage output of a while squad of TS with a freakin sorceror (Bolt of Change?).
> 
> ...


This from a daemon hunter?:shok: You are right though, in 5th thousand sons are far better than plauge marines especialy with the bolt of change.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> IThere the most corruptable short of Dark Angels and some other Chapters.


Where do you get this idea from? The Dark Angels are supposed to be some of the most fanaticaly loyal Marines going. It took Luther to corrupt the portion of the Legion lost during the heresy.


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## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

scolatae said:


> This from a daemon hunter?:shok: You are right though, in 5th thousand sons are far better than plauge marines especialy with the bolt of change.


You must know your enemies to defeat them.

I play Daemon Hunters as my main army, but I also have a force of Space Marines that I use as my custom chapter for fun little side games with friends. 

I long time friend, and the person that got me into 40k in the first place, has played CSM for many years, and we have always had debates about this sort of thing. Between us, we own all the codexes for use as in studying our enemies :mrgreen:


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Prince Endymion said:


> You must be playing 4th Ed then.
> 
> In 5th Ed I have yet to see a player use Plague Marines, sinse they took the shaft while TS got a mega boost. Noise Marines are nice, but pricey, and the 1 Blastmaster per squad can't compete with the damage output of a while squad of TS with a freakin sorceror (Bolt of Change?).
> 
> ...


I wish I played 4th Edition still. All those nice Deamonic Upgrades and Books of Chaos. Unfortunatly I have 5th edition. Maybe you need to look at some competitive list again and then come back to this debate.

Kharn is the Ultimate Chaos Character for any 1500 Pt. Army. Any Smart Player knows to seperate him from the Squad hes attached to and charge while not getting in close enough to be considered "attached" to that same said squad. Now he is not a liability. Abbaddon may be broke but will murder still anything short of AV 14 all around vehicles. 

As for comments like Possessed being boosted shows how little knowledge of what works you have. I have Berserkers that count as Troops for 2/3 games that are played that have Furious Charge off the bat, 4 Attacks, and WS5. Or a Non Scoring Unit costing more in Pts, less attacks, WS4, and a Random Ability that can be as worthless as Fleet. And you talk about why people switch from Dreads to Defilers and Kharn being unpredictable., yet you say Possessed are good! 

And lets look at that expensive Possessed option for Land Raiders when SM equivlants have the more usful Machine Spirit automaticaly. Hmmmm.....

I think you need to look at the Current Codex again, I know its hard to belive but Chaos Suck more so now than 4th. Heres hope to 6th.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Hey you never know they might actually bring out a 5th Edition Codex: Chaos Space Marines, considering the current one was released a year before 5th Edition came out and the 2 before that were both released in 3rd Edition...


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> Hey you never know they might actually bring out a 5th Edition Codex: Chaos Space Marines, considering the current one was released a year before 5th Edition came out and the 2 before that were both released in 3rd Edition...




According to GW own Website the Codex is 5th Edition. Thats probaly why it sucks so bad. It came out befor the Rule Book. The problem to me tho is alot of the units are usless or so blah that the Cult Troops, DPs, Oblits, and Defilers are the only, ONLY, good playable units worth their Pts. Thats it. The rest is not quite right or worth playing. Another sucky thing is that the whole Codex plays the same. Fluffy lists are pointless now. At least the SMs have Vulkan or Pedro Canter characters to make fluffy lists that work well. None of the CSM characters have options to allow a fluffy play list. So evertything has a Black Legion feel. Would it aslo hurt to have Dread Claws? Every other SM anything has them, and couldnt we have the Deamonic Upgrades that would make my Sorceror or Chaos Lord usefull instead of always playing with a DP for competitive play? Also its a very sad shame that the Fluffy Deamons and Greater Deamons cant be used no more. They Should at the very least allow a Cross over between Chaos Deamons and CSM codexes like SM/IG with SoB/GK Codexes. Its bullshit. But ohwell.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Well considering the current CSM Codex was designed to be used in 4th Edition, with possibly a nod at making sure nothing was rendered obsolete when 5th Edition rolled round a year later, it's a 4th Edition Codex as far as I'm aware.

Where does it say on the site that it's a 5th Edition Codex, cause it's not under the Codex description...


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

Coder59 said:


> Where do you get this idea from? The Dark Angels are supposed to be some of the most fanaticaly loyal Marines going. It took Luther to corrupt the portion of the Legion lost during the heresy.


And they are now so obsessed with hunting down these heretics that in my mind have already purged their sin.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> Well considering the current CSM Codex was designed to be used in 4th Edition, with possibly a nod at making sure nothing was rendered obsolete when 5th Edition rolled round a year later, it's a 4th Edition Codex as far as I'm aware.
> 
> Where does it say on the site that it's a 5th Edition Codex, cause it's not under the Codex description...


Ever read the Tale of Four Gamers that WD publish recently? Well its on the GW websight and it clearly states the Four Gamers are using all 5th Edition CODEXES! Matt had 5th EDITION Red Corsair Army. I understand it was made during 4th. But nontheless GW has made it clear to PWN it off as 5th. After all there was a 4th Edition CSM Dex already that had all the Legions and Books of Chaos in it. Sucks but again ohwell.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Actually the Chaos Codex with all the Legion rules was 3rd Edition, 2 Chaos Space Marine Codexes were released over 3rd Edition's shelf life. The 2nd one is commonly referred to as the 3.5 Edition Codex.

Well just because GW referred to it as a 5th Edition Codex on a online article doesnt make it so, I refuse to refer to a Codex published a full 12 months before 5th Edition was released as a '5th Edition Codex'.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

honestly i see where you are coming from warlock seeing as how both of my armies got shafted with the new codex but it's not as bad as you think it is. granted i cant play my Word Bearers army at all now until the new codex comes out and hopefully brings back legion specific rules but i can still play my iron warriors with a little tweaking for smaller games and no tweaking in apoc. i understand that mostly all fluffy armies arent competitive now for chaos but why are you playing in the first place? to have fun while fighting or to compete? if it's to compete then go ahead and cheese it up because we all know Tsons and zerkers totally work well together. BUT if you are playing for fun then keep your fluffy army and learn how to work with them in this new codex until the next comes out. that's what the rest of us are doing and believe me chaos has not sucked and will not suck it just changes.

you can still make a kick ass list if you know how to use the units you put on the table.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I have a kick ass list now with Lash Prince (wish I could Afford another) and Lash Sorceror, with Zerkers and Noise Marine combi. What Im bitching and pissing and moaning about is the Lack of options and oppertunities to creat a fun AND competitive list. Its ethier play to win or play to have fun. Why not both? Where does it say in the BRB that I Chaos cant have both fluffy and pain inducing list. I can use Noise Marines and Zerkers all day but thats all there is to the book. No Basisilisk for silly fun for the Iron Warriors. No more all CSM have Infiltrate and Cultist Figures for Alpha. No little tweak or build for anything. But SMs have 4 seperate Codexes and characters that change entire List Builds. WTF? Thas what Im piss about. Till a betterCodex comes out Ill suffer the Bland List that win alot or use my Fluffy army and leave upset that my Game might end on turn 4 due to no models left on the table. And the thing that helps me sleep at night is alot of Chaos Players bitch about the same. 

All I want is my UNIQUE Fluffy builds and having compitent HQs other than DPs and Kharn.Give me back my Deamonic Upgrades.

And a cheaper Huron


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## GiftofChaos1234 (Jan 27, 2009)

back to topic. 

alrighty well you are saying that huron isn't chaos because he doesn't have any marks? well what about the night lords, iron warriors, alpha legion etc. they don't generally have any marks but they are still commonly associated as chaos space marines...


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

GiftofChaos1234 said:


> back to topic.
> 
> alrighty well you are saying that huron isn't chaos because he doesn't have any marks? well what about the night lords, iron warriors, alpha legion etc. they don't generally have any marks but they are still commonly associated as chaos space marines...


Dude as was vaugley aluded to in legion the alpha legion aren't chaos but are fighting for th emperor against the imperium due to bieng shown a vision of the heresy outcomes by a cabal of ailiens, so for the good of the galaxy they joined horus the arch traitor.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

scolatae said:


> Dude as was vaugley aluded to in legion the alpha legion aren't chaos but are fighting for th emperor against the imperium due to bieng shown a vision of the heresy outcomes by a cabal of ailiens, so for the good of the galaxy they joined horus the arch traitor.


They still work Chaos Cults and Summon Deamons from time to time. They use chaos (if not worship) and that is all is needed to be Chaosified. the Sons of Malice worship Malice who is against the four Chaos Gods, but for all intents and purposes the SoM are still Spickey, Sacrificing, Mean Mofos. There using Chaos.


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