# Most Competitive Warhammer army under 8th?



## Truthteller

So I'm sitting here with two viable armies at 2000 points (Dark Elfs and Dwarfs), two armies with lots of toys but not 8th edition compliant (Wood Elves and WoC) and two armies with loads of unpainted stuff (Skaven and VCs) plus money burning a hole in my pocket. 

For 2011 I want a truly kick-ass army. For several years I haven't gone for ultra competitive builds and other guys have won the club leagues. This year I want to turn the tables. 

I have choices - buy a new army (and pay for it to be painted), or complete one of the armies that's causing the beams in my loft to groan with the strain of all that stored metal (there's 50 or so historical armies up there as well). 

The only real limitations are that I don't like skirmishing folks to death and I do like to play on my local rep as a cunning player. 

What's the advice from the Heretics? If I want to win should I go Lizzie or Daemons? Can I do as well using Dwarfs or Dark Elfs? Should I be considering High Elves?

All comments/thoughts gratefully received. The more reasoning backing up your prejudices the better.

Regards
TT


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## Gromrir Silverblade

I shouldn't really comment on this thread as I have only ever had dwarfs, but I love those stunty bastards. They are as inflexible as Gromril and can deal out a load of punishment before your enemy even gets close. If you don't mind having a fairly rigid tactical plan, a predictable fighting style and a shit load of artillery, then I reckon the dwarfs are for you!


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## whYnoT

Although I'm a Empire player no matter what, I'm really interested to hear what people has got to say on this, as I don't have a honest clue myself.


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## Vaz

Any with access to the 8 Lores of Magic, and have access to magic item boosts - namely Empire (doubly so with huge numbers of artillery - its not every army that can take 8 Artillery Pieces in 2000 points, and still have enough to take on other armies in the range game), High Elves (decent in Range, and with ASF getting yet another boost, and stacking spears turning them into hugely defensive armies, backed by powerful tanks (White Lions/Phoenix Guard) and DPS units (SwordMasters)), and Lizardmen (Tooled Slann, Saurus are probably the second best basic infantry in the game, and Salamanders sending out enough Breath Weapons to make Vulkan He'Stan weep).

Although they don't have access to the Lores - Skaven are naughty due to the Leadership Boost from ranks, cheap units, easy ranks, lots of spears, and an awesome spell lore (or two).

Warriors of Chaos are a fair exception to the rule - and that's down to one reason only, if I'm honest - and that's the Warriors of Chaos. They are just that awesome that I can't even think of Elite Infantry which can match them stat for stat. Hell, each one is effectively a Miniature Hero level character when tooled up.


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## Tatsumaki

I don't win very often with my Dark Elves, but I think they're worth a shot. You just have to stack up on the aspects which make them broken as hell.

1) Lord level character, full armor, pegasus, black amulet, crown of command. Charge him into the most expensive character your enemy has then hold them up for the rest of the game.

2) Lots of harpies. Nuff said.

3)War hydra. T5 S5, 7 attacks with hatred, 2d6 attacks for breathing, and d6 extra for stomping. How can you argue with that?!


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## Creon

Of the armies you list, here it is:

Dark Elves: A little less effective in 8th than 7th, they suffer from low toughness and no Ogre Equivalent. Can be very effective, but is a finesse army needing experience to use correctly

Dwarfs: Very strong in 8th, can tool up the characters well, tough overall, good anti magic, VERY expensive per model in points. Also needs experience to pay effectively, can have some killer artillery. 

WoC: What can you say, it's an excellent day to be Chaotic. WoC have access to the most effective Cav in the game, the most effective Infantry in the game, cheap mass units, and lots of toys. a very forgiving army, but it's a SMASH ENEMY IN FACE! army, some don't like that play style. 

Wood Elves: keep them in the box until their book is updated. Very very fragile and behind the curve.

Skaven: Very very effective, lots of abilities, hard hitting units, many many options to shoot. Very random,will hurt themselves equally to the enemy at times, and....they run away fairly easily. They can be dominant, they can be very effective. They are many rats to paint. Many Many rats. Many many many rats. And then there are more rats to paint.

VCs: Very effective, very hard hitting, can bog down the enemy rather spectacularly. Can put together some amazingly killy units. But they rely on magic, which can be a real let-down at times.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

Imo these are the top contenders of 8th ed (in no particular order:
Empire. Lots of cheap efficient troops, access to all lores, lots of shooting, especially with their warmachines. And they also feature some really stupid units such as the T10 Stank and the unbreakable popemobile. Not to mention a few really annoying magic items.
Only problem with them is that they aren't the most CC focused army so unless there's lots of guys they have trouble coming out on top vs. alot of the quality units of the other races.

High Elves. The pansies of the north have gained a major boost with the new ASF rules and the focus on lots of infantry have made those swordmaster deathstars viable. They also has access to all lores and the retardedly cheesy Teclis if you want to stomp your opponent into oblivion.
Their greatest weaknesses includes T3 troops and low numbers.

Lizardmen. The scalies of the south has many strong points including plenty of annoying poisoned shooting skirmishers, big fat blocks of nasty dinos, good leadership, the already mentioned salamanders and the fat guy in the chair keeping the whole army together by being a monstrous caster, hard to assail and being both the general and BSB.
Lizardmen however suffers from poor initiative and a lot of magic reliance. It's also a somewhat slow army but it is an very good allrounder army.

Skaven. The weak nefarious ratmen have also received a big boost with the new rules, especially due to their new book. They have almost everything needed to make a great army including: Lots of troops. Lots and lots of them. Waaay too many of them actually. Combined with powerful warmachines and disgusting monsters such as the abomination and the stupid hamsterwheel chariot. While skaven don't have access to the standard lores their own is more than enough to annoy the hell out of any opponent and their plaguefurnace is just sick. 
Skaven also have great LD, good movement and annoying skirmishing units.
Their biggest weakness is probably their weakness  Skaven aren't the best fighters in the world and are often leagues away from the elites of other armies. Also, sometimes their machines just go loopy and kill themselves.

Dark Elves. While nowhere near as "improved" by the new system they are still a very good army for the competent player (yeah, now I'm just blowing my own horn).
Their bog standard troops are excellent compared to many others and the emo elves of the cold sport great shooting, magic, maneuvrebility, LD and armywide hatred. They are also capable of shitting cheese straight unto the board in the shape of hydras, blackguard and near indestructible characters.
Weaknesses include frailty, limited numbers and a significant decrease in damage output in protracted combats. Also the whole army need to work together in order to come out on top (sorry, über deathstars of destruction are no longer viable as shades have lost a lot of oomph and BG units are limited to 20 dudes). But when working together they are still a force to be reckoned with.

Deamons of Chaos. 
The disorderly hellspawn from the other side haven't lost all their merits despite having been nerfed heavily by the new ruleset. While the nurgle pointsinks are now crappe, daemons still have access to beastly CC characters, great magic, armywide fear and ITP and units made entirely of the raw material carved from the cavernous lairs of stilton in the UK. Khornedogs and flamers are the most noteworthy of these.
Greatest weaknesses are low model count and that the army is virtually a juggernaught without a steeringwheel. If you opponent knows what the army can do, its rather easy for him/her to make you pay for your mistakes.

And finally the Warriors of Chaos, the Vikings of Warhammer. An army made pimarily of hero units (yes, they are that sick. Or they can be once the warshrines starts crapping out boons left and right) who also sports the awesomely cheap marauders in such great numbers that even skaven players start shitting themselves. Even moreso when they see the statline for these guys.
Not to mention the super juiced CC characters and the always powerful chaos sorcerers. WoC are also great at playing the points denial game as even their standard core units can bitchslap the elites of other armies around when properly equipped.
Unfortunately the army is slow, has almost no shooting, no skirmishers and while the entire army can be fearless their LD isn't all that great. Also, just like daemons, their weaknesses are really easy to exploit so you need to have a balanced army or some measure of experience if you don't want to be screwed over by the somewhat monotonous playstyle of the army.

Hope that makes any sort of sense cause I'm not sure anymore...


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## WinZip

I think WoC take the cake, though the empire and the Dwarfs are up there with them. Also like to think my Dark Elves are up there too :grin:
@AAAAAAARRRGGHH you made complete sense to me


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## olderplayer

I've now played four tournaments (two 5 rounds and two 3 rounds) and lots of single games in 8th (mighty empire group of 10 to 12 players). We have 8 armies to play at home (Dark Elves, Skaven, Orcs and Goblins, Lizardmen, Dwarves, High Elves, Daemons of Chaos and Warriors of Chaos) and two of us at home play competitively (Daemons, Warriors, Lizardmen, and Daemons) and one plays casually (Orcs and goblins and skaven). 

Every army now has its weaknesses and most armies can occasionally get a run of luck and go 5-0 or 4-0-1 in a five game tourney at 2500 points with a competitive general and good army composition and synergy. Most armies must now be run certain ways (with skaven, lizardmen, and daemons perhaps still having more room for error and variation in army focus and design) that are different from 7th edition (even the top tier armies) to be competitive in that they often must adopt different combinations and sizes of units relative to 7th edition and be played differently than in 7th edition in order to be successful. There is more balance among the top players in terms of the competitiveness of the various armies and more of a rock-paper-scissors kind of situation now than in 7th edition. Certain competitive builds are strong to some armies and weak to others and the luck of the draw and dice will often determine how one does in a campaign, group play, or a tourney. 


The armies that can win regularly in our area (limited comp) in an all-comers tourney (50 to 100 players) are:

1. Lizardman: -the Slann has too great of an advantage with Lore of Life (throne of vines and dwellers are two of the best spells in 8th), cupped hands and the disciplines: ethereal, +1 PD per casting attempt, and becalming to shut down magic in range plus the ability to hind in a TG unit
-TG must be run deep now and benefit from a hero with the burning blade and stuff (make this unit a semi-death star with the Slann adequately protected) and TG benefit from the step up and strike back ability, just keep the Slann from miscasting and limit damage from shooting 
-Saurus are now much better than before with the ability to step up and fight back
-Chameleons are excellent war machine and monster snipers
-Salamanders are nasty

2. Skaven
-The steadfast and step up rules with the low cost be model for hordes combined with great rares (warp lightning cannons and hellpits) and decent magic makes this consistently one of the top armies. 
-The Grey Seer with the Dreaded 13th spell and power scroll is a broken combo that is so strong it is being banned
-Ambush unit is great for taking out war machines and surprising opponents


3. Daemons of Chaos
-The biggest issue is daemons hate for being so overpowered in 7th edition leading to bad game votes for comp reasons
-Heralds of Tzeentch with Master of Sorcery and dispel scrols are excellent with Lore of Life and Beasts
-Horrors in a larger block with a herald increases resilience and survivability, dispel ability and casting flexibility
-Bloodletters boosted by Lore of Life toughness augments are very devastating in horde formations, expecially when led by a herald of khrone
-Flamers and fleshhounds are simply too good for their points 
-Bloodthirster is as good or better than before if properly protected from cannons and able to get into combat supporting bloodletters or heralds
-Also seeing some interesting Slaanesh focused armies with the Greater Daemon, Fiends (fast and stomp but somewhat vulnerable to shooting) and daemonettes with a herald that have winning records and play well but not as successful as the BT, bloodletter horde, flamer, fleshhound, horror, heralds of Tzeentch and Khorne army.
-Bloodcrushers are now good and worth played with the stomp

These are the three armies that are consistently winning the most and have the best chance of going 4-1 or 5-0 at an Indy GT with legal lists approved. 



We are also seeing the following armies with certain generals and combinations of units generating consistently winning records (3-2 average with occasion 4-1 or 3-1-1) and someone placing high with them but with less chance of winning best general by going 5-0 or 4-0-1 due to one or two weaknesses leading to at least one loss in every four or five games:

1. Dark Elves (weak below 2400 points, but much stronger at 2500 and 2750 points when a lvl 4 and a dreadlord can both be adequately kitted)
-Can play a very difficult to kill and effective dreadlord and a decent lvl 4 at 2500 points
-Lvl 4 with sac dagger and talisman of protection with spearmen with std of discipline and lvl 2 with tome of furion with shadow and dark lore combos seems best magic mix
-Two hydras with thunderstomp and breath weapon attack in combat are a must, less emphases on RBTs
-Core built around RXB warrior blocks of 12 to 20 in two ranks but able to reform for greater ranks for steadfast if charged by single rank units (shooting with AP is effective in 8th edition) with shields and music, no standards
-COK run in larger blocks with ASF banner and dreadlord on Cold One with stubborn, pendant and whip of agony and BSB in or nearby with re-rollable AS and dragonhelm
-some successful use of a master on dark steed with ring of hotek to go after war machines and force miscasts (casters within 12" of ring but can cast at targets within 12'" of ring without penalty
-Cauldron almost always be needed above 2200 points (sometimes also the BSB if heavy on infantry, execs, witch, or Black Guard units; otherwise the BSB should be mounted if with a larger COK unit)
-Biggest problems are high cost per model making horde units impractical (except for maybe one spearman unit), the substantial loss of value of witches and execs and assassins relative to 7th edition (due to the ability of opposing units to step up and fight back and attack in ranks), and relatively low T and insufficient protections (low AS, no regen, no ward save unless cauldron blessing or limited magic item) for all but hydras, cauldron, and well-equiped characters (still have low T, so have to roll to save a lot). DE infantry and some cav models were assigned points due to +1M ensuring the charge and the combination of greater I and WS and hatred limiting the number of attacks back in 7th edition. With the step up rule and supporting attacks allowed, now cheaper infantry, such as clanrats, can kill witches, black guard, and execs too easily on a points-equivalent basis. Thus, the magic phase augments (such as Lore of Metal to boost AS or increase hitting odds and AP) and hexes (shadow to cut I, WS, BS, S, or T and dark magic's word of pain to cut WS to 1 on opposing units) are needed to redress the balance and anti-horde spells (final transmutation in Lore of Metal; pit in shadow, and soul stealer and horror in dark magic in combo with shadow hexes) to even the odds when facing large blocks of infantry. In order to get the magic through, one needs the lvl 4 with dagger and a lvl 2 both optimally using the dagger and power of darkness spell combos to get through some spells and cast a lot of spells on fewer dice to avoid miscast risks. Even then, the reliance on magic to overcome weaknesses will end up with some miscasts and they can be very damaging if they end the magic phase early, seriously damage a unit, or the caster loses magic levels and spells. DE casters do not have access to loremaster, avoid miscast, or reduce miscast consequences magic items and spells that many other armies have access to and must pay also significant points their ward saves and cannot have armour. Armies with cannons and excellent magic defense (empire and dwarves) give dark elf armies a lot of problems. Armies with units with high T (ogres, warriors and lizardmen) or good casting ability with access to the Lore of Life (high elves, lizardmen, empire; dwellers is a very bad spell for dark elf armies to face) can also be tougher for DE armies to beat. 

2. High Elves
-swordmasters and phoenix guard and white lions are all very good with ASF and high I and ability to carry magic banners
-good lvl 4 abilities and lvl 2 can carry the crystal (takes away a PD from opponent and gives +1 DD); Lore of Life is favored due to throne of vines, boosting toughness augment and dwellers
-core is still expensive for what it does: archers are technically inferior to Sea guard in terms of points relative to what they do unless able to be protected from combat and sit back and shoot; spearmen can be very effective in blocks with the extra rank of supporting attacks and ASF and a magic banner
-biggest problems are cost per model and poor rare choices of RBTs (necessary but too easily countered and killed in 8th edition) and Eagles (just not tough enough or well enough protected to consistently threaten enemy war machines). The gain of ASF re-rolls with greater or equal I is offset by the ability of opposing units to step up and have supporting attacks. The better shooting (more shots and AP shooting of RXBs), hydras and eternal hatred of dark elves is a problem for a high elf army. 

3. Empire
-Excellent war machines in cannons and mortars and rockets; see two cannons, one mortar and one rocket battery
-Large unit of halberds or great swords can be effective but can be killed
-Shooting units to protect war machines are modestly effective with shooting in two ranks but cannot hold up to monsters and heavy cav charges
-Steam Tank is very tough (T10) but vulnerable now to certain magic and cannons (not normal shooting)
-Popemobile is great
-Casters choosing Lore of Life and Lore of Death commonly effective with right spells
The biggest problem is that the war machines (even with engineers) can miss and the rest of the army is not strong enough to prevent a scouting or fast moving unit from wiping out the war machines and lighter protecting units. If the war machines are not successful in the first two rounds, then, once units get into combat or they get charged, they cease to be effective and become VP gifts too often in combat. Similarly, the steam tank can be hit or miss and once wounded starts to lose its effectiveness. Even the popemobile has weaknesses and costs so much that one can tie it up (with a resilient or cheap/sacrificial unit) or avoid it and simply kill most of the rest of the army. 

4. Dwarves (much better in 8th edition and will consistently produce a winning record if played optimally but will tend to lose a game or two out of five too consistently due to limitations in options and flexibility)
-Must run larger, steadfast blocks of warriors, some as rangers for scouting to force earlier combat and get them out of war machine and magic risks; use tough, hard to kill BSB to avoid breaks and panic; should carry great weapons to max hitting power as will often strike last anyway
-Two Cannons with re-roll rune and one with flaming (for hydras and hellpit aboms) is optimal with a grudge thrower (+2 to S) and organ gun battery is a common, optimal set up; no guess range anymore and re-roll runes substantially limit misfire risks and increase the chance of hitting every turn to the point that cannons and a boosted grudge thrower can win the game in two turns 
-Crossbow and rifles are only so-so in protecting war machines from light skirmishers and fast cav
-Runelord (no anvil) with dispel runes and rune which takes away a PD of opponent and adds a dispel dice will often shut down magic phase of opponent or force the opponent to roll for IRF/miscasts to get the big spells through
-Modest unit or two of miners can be very effective in either going after enemy war machines or coming on to protect your war machines

5. Warriors of Chaos (always a tough battle and usually win more than lose but often suffer enough losses to never win a tourney)
-Tzeentch Lore is one of the best with RIP spell of pandemonium and call to glory allowing additional spells to be cast and with the +1 casting value with MoTz
-Single spell nurgle casters can carry scrolls and puppet and pick off characters
-Also see lvl 2 casters with Lore of Death
-Warriors with either halberds and Mok or shields and MoTz are great in larger blocks of 18+; chosen are better than before especially with war shrines
-The access of warriors, chosen and chaos knights to excellent magic banners and the ability to give marks to most units is a real boost in 8th edition. 
-War shrines are one of best values for money in that they are resilient (AS and ward save and MoTz makes the ward save 3+), can fight effective and, yet, can permanently (blessing continues even if the war shrine is later killed) bless either a larger unit of knights, warriors or chosen; high S, multiple attacks, good WS and good I means knights, warriors, and chosen units get to hit and hit harder and the war shrine either protects them a lot (if given +1 AS, +1 T, MR3 or 4+ ward save) or makes more better able to kill (given +1 S, +1 Attack) especially if the cheap favour of the gods magic item is in the unit being targetted
-Hellcannnons are hit and miss but worth the points on average
-Chaos orgres are much better in 8th edition with 3 or 4 wide and two ranks (6 to 8) due to stomp and supporting attacks rules, put chaos armour and MoK and run near BSB and lord with chaos knight unit and they will either divert attention or kill effectively; they are now better value in attacks and wounds per point cost relative to dragon ogres
-marauder horsemen can have vanguard and still protect flaniks, attack war machines, run down depleted units, bait and flee, and harass but vulnerable to shooting and not rallying
-chaos knights are underestimated for what they do but better when run in larger blocks with a lord or BSB or exalted hero
-a lord with crown of command and MoTZ and protective stuff and in a unit blessed by a war shrine (mounted with chaos knights or on foot with chosen or warriors) is one of the best
-The biggest problem for warriors is no really good points effective horde (marauders just not strong enough or tough enough for their points), high cost per model limits the number of models and units that can be played competitively, and the points costs preventing one from running both a well-protected lvl 4 caster and a decent lord even at 2500 to 2750 points levels. 

6. Vampire Counts
-The army must now be played very differently with the new magic rules nerfing bound spells and with a failure to cast causing a caster to be unable to cast additional spells (no more repetitive single dice casting attempts because a 1 or 2 natural roll of the dice is an auto-fail and ends the caster's ability to cast more spells that phase). The focus of a competitive army is, thus, more on fighting and magic defense (possibly a black coach and the ability to transfer left over dice to the next round of magic) boosted by fighting oriented vampires used for limited magic offense (single dice, one-off casting attempts by lvl 1 or 2 vampire heroes tooled for fighting followed by one larger roll for a big vampire lore spell to get off the spell with the lord). Blood knights, run in a block with a regen banner BSB and lord, are better than before due to the ability to control frenzy and the lord having the blood drinker sword to regen wounds. Skelly blocks (with shields for parry saves against infantry), ghouls, and grave guard make a good base of an army with magic banners and vampire abilities buffing them enough to make them competitive and hold for enough rounds of combat for the heavy hammers to do their damage. 


All that being said, I saw an excellent orc and goblin army with good magic defense (great banner), war machines, and squig herder blocks go 5-0 and win a very tough tourney; have seen a Bret army do well and prove to be very tough to fight (trebs and special abilities of Bret knights plus Lore of Life casters made it a tough army to beat); and found ogres, wood elves (4-1 at tourney with lore of Life and eternal and glade guard blocks with Treeman), beastmen, and tomb kings to be tough armies at times and all showing the ability to produce winning records of 3-2 and 4-1, just less reliably. It is not like 7th edition, where I could play a less-than-optimal dark elf army set-up and still count on an almost certain win or a high probability of winning (absent very bad luck or really bad play) against certain armies (especially orcs and goblins, beastmen, and dwarves) most of the time. The person that said wood elves are not any good simply has not seen how they can be played competitively in 8th edition, very different from 7th edition composition and tactics.


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## Truthteller

That was an awesome response. I'll be handing out rep to a number of the above contributors.

FWIW my own instinct (having only played 3 or 4 games in 8th and watched a similar number) was as follows:-

1. Lizzies look the best bet. The combination of the tooled up Slann, a core unit that's second only to the warriors of Chaos, and a lot of useful support (Skink skirmishers, Salamanders, Terradons) makes them dominant or strong in all phases and flexible.

2. The Daemons I've seen (Tzeetch shooty style with some doggies and Skulltaker along for the ride) are less effective now but still nasty. 

3. All the elf armies still seem to me to struggle with T3. My DE army doesn't hit like it used too and so T3 comes into play more often. It seems to me that you end up diverting your magic to make up for the flaws in the rest of the list instead of kil;ling the opponent.

4.Dwarfs are still too slow and too rigid. The lack of cavalry, monsters, monstrous infantry, or even a decent skirmishing unit limits tactical flexibility. Add in that they are less effective in value for money terms than Chaos Warriors and Saurus and you are back to gun line tactics. (It would make a huge difference if they could recruit some mercenary Ogres).

5. The WoC list keeps tempting me but, in spite of the comments above, I can't get the support to balance up properly. This could be because our group plays primarily at 2000 points (although there is talk of going to 2,500 for the next league with the advent of 8th). The Warriors are great but either the army is so small that its flanks are uncovered or I have to economise on Warriors and end up with units that die like dogs (like dogs and marauders). I really struggle with the magic/fighting balance as well. The Sorcerors aren't the best and they soak up points I want to use for Heroes, but then I need the magic protection :-(

6. Skaven are fun, but could be very hit or miss. I don't trust my dice enough to go deliberately courting the Miscast table by constantly aiming for IRF, but that approach and the 13th spell seem to be integral to using the army. 

7. I haven't seen VCs used yet. Odd the way that an army used by a good quarter of the club's players disappeared as soon as we started using 8th. Previously a monkey could play VCs and give anyone a tough game (It was the way that certain players suddenly acquired VCs for the 2010 league that flipped my reasonableness switch over to 'I'll show 'em'). I'm getting the feeling it will need a lot of cunning to make it work now. 

So, I'm going to leave the decision open for a few more days in the hope that I get some more comments/ideas. At the moment I'm thinking that my top three choices (in order) are:-
A. Buy a Lizardmen army and get it painted. 
B. Add a few extra models to the DE and persevere with them. 
C. Trust to luck and use the Skaven. 

Please feel free to try to overturn the applecart and persuade me that I'm hopelessly wrong and should be using (for example) an all Gobbo army 

Regards
TT


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## Truthteller

Older player - just tried to add rep for your excellent post but got a message I had to spread it around a bit before giving you rep again  I'll try and add it at some later date!

Regards
TT


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## sybarite

Truthteller said:


> A. Buy a Lizardmen army and get it painted.
> TT


hey as a warning some tournaments do not like you using models you did not paint yourself, for example when l was playing 40K with my IG army it got a bad score and the reason on the card was "you should paint your army by yourself, before you play with that army"  this army l did with my brother so we painted 1/2 each.

In anycase l havn't seen anything like that in fantasy yet but justs a head's up. (reason like this is why l moved from 40K to fantasy)

l have both WoC and Lizardmen and l will say there petty even it is a very different way of playing though, l would use some of your men for a few test game before going down any army (odd's are one of your friends plays the army you are looking to get it to)


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## squeek

If you want something completely different and potentially very good in 8th, hold out for the release of the new O&G or TK armybook. There are lots of rumours flying around about the O&G book in particular; potentially with all changes the 8th edition books will have the edge just as the 5th edition codexes do in 40k. Plus O&G are great fun. 

Though I would think making something of one of the armies you have would be more rewarding, since having stacks of unused models can get a bit annoying. Not to mention using what you have will make your money go further.

Of your list, skaven and dwarfs would both make pretty competitive armies if you spent a little time getting a strong list worked out.


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## Truthteller

Squeek - I hear you about unpainted models.

Maybe I'm just following the old wargamer's adage - for every painted model you must have at least one unpainted one in the cupboard. There are 20 under-coated 28mm Gallic Warband sitting on my painting table that have been there for 3 years. They were supposed to be added to a Seleucid army to add some bite to the Phalanx, but the rules dropped out of use and my best painted army with it.

Regards
TT


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## coke123

Vaz said:


> Any with access to the 8 Lores of Magic, and have access to magic item boosts - namely Empire (doubly so with huge numbers of artillery - its not every army that can take 8 Artillery Pieces in 2000 points, and still have enough to take on other armies in the range game), High Elves (decent in Range, and with ASF getting yet another boost, and stacking spears turning them into hugely defensive armies, backed by powerful tanks (White Lions/Phoenix Guard) and DPS units (SwordMasters)), and Lizardmen (Tooled Slann, Saurus are probably the second best basic infantry in the game, and Salamanders sending out enough Breath Weapons to make Vulkan He'Stan weep).


Aye, this man speaks the truth. Combat Empire with as many warrior priests as you can afford will make grown men cry. High Elves packing plenty of Swordmasters and White Lions will chop up the enemy before they can say "WTF? S6?", and that's not to mention Teclis, or the book of Hoeth. Finally, Lizardmen, my army, is just awesome. Building up blocks of Saurus around a Life Slann with Salamanders is an awesome way to go. Add in some Terradons/Chameleons for anti-war machine and you're in business. I've seen people throw tanrums over using Cupped hands on them, and the prospect of T8 Saurus is just too great to ignore Life.



Truthteller said:


> 1. Lizzies look the best bet. The combination of the tooled up Slann, a core unit that's second only to the warriors of Chaos, and a lot of useful support (Skink skirmishers, Salamanders, Terradons) makes them dominant or strong in all phases and flexible.
> 
> So, I'm going to leave the decision open for a few more days in the hope that I get some more comments/ideas. At the moment I'm thinking that my top three choices (in order) are:-
> A. Buy a Lizardmen army and get it painted.
> B. Add a few extra models to the DE and persevere with them.
> C. Trust to luck and use the Skaven.


That's a fairly accurate description of them. Except I don't know that Saurus are the second best core. I1 hurts a lot, and to this end a Slann is a must. Hehehe, nice to see yet another join our ranks. Post an army list when you can.



sybarite said:


> hey as a warning some tournaments do not like you using models you did not paint yourself, for example when l was playing 40K with my IG army it got a bad score and the reason on the card was "you should paint your army by yourself, before you play with that army"  this army l did with my brother so we painted 1/2 each.
> 
> In anycase l havn't seen anything like that in fantasy yet but justs a head's up. (reason like this is why l moved from 40K to fantasy)


How can they possibly know if you haven't painted them yourself? Just don't tell them



sybarite said:


> l have both WoC and Lizardmen and l will say there petty even it is a very different way of playing though, l would use some of your men for a few test game before going down any army (odd's are one of your friends plays the army you are looking to get it to)


I agree with this on all accounts. Although, if you do go with Lizards, never get overconfident in your Saurus' ability. They can lose, and as always, playtest, playtest, playtest.


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## oblivion8

> How can they possibly know if you haven't painted them yourself? Just don't tell them


ya I was just going to say that seems a bit strange. I wouldnt even mention it...


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## sybarite

coke123 said:


> How can they possibly know if you haven't painted them yourself? Just don't tell them





oblivion8 said:


> ya I was just going to say that seems a bit strange. I wouldnt even mention it...


you see my bother is not the best painter (it was his 1st time) so half my army was very well painted and the other half look like well just plain bad . But l did not mind l was just happy to spend the time with him, sadly other people didn't agree.


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## The Son of Horus

To wander back on topic, I don't feel like there's a single "best" army in Fantasy. Or even tiers of armies. Unlike 40k, skill is so central to Fantasy that a good player can make a bunch of one armed goblins beat the fool out of what passes for a power build, while a bad player who netdecked their army list and don't understand basic strategy are going to lose, no matter how much statistics on paper may favor them. 

Are there armies that are easier to learn to play the game with? Sure. That doesn't make them any more or less competitive-- it just means that they have fewer special rules on average, so a player can focus more on core mechanics rather than exploiting special abilities. Empire, Warriors of Chaos, Dwarves, Orcs and Goblins, Ogre Kingdoms, and Lizardmen are all fairly devoid of special rules on the majority of their units, while other armies have very unforgiving playstyles that require perfection in maneuvering (such as Brettonians or Beastmen) or have enough special rules on a unit-by-unit basis that a player is having to juggle the specific abilities of each unit and how they interact with the rest of the army in addition to the basic mechanics of the game. Any of the Elvish armies, Daemons (mixed daemons, at any rate), Vampire Counts, and Tomb Kings tend to rely on more "tricksy" things before setting up their devastating assaults, and can be a little harder to learn basic strategy with. 

Despite some armies being easier to learn basic strategy and the game mechanics themselves with, I don't think an army like Warriors of Chaos is any easier to play well than Brettonians, or has any inherent advantages written in that are greater than any other army's. 

Now, with that in mind, are there certain units that people find more frequently to work well for them? Sure. When you're dealing with people who play both 40k and Fantasy, those units tend to get labelled as being more competitive. And thus, army lists which include those units become labelled as being more competitive. The fact of the matter, however, is that no matter what you actually bring, making it work for you is the real determinant of whether you win or lose, and not what statistics and intentional advantages in game design confer. I run Forsaken in my Warriors of Chaos armies sometimes, and most people will agree that on paper, they're a horrendous unit that isn't worth the plastic you converted it out of. I've made them work for me, and as a result, when I bring them, they're an important part of my overall strategy on the table.


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## olderplayer

TT; I keep getting the message that I can't add rep to comments and helpful posts that are really well done, so no big deal. 

There is a certain combination of focus, balance (ability to deal with various threats), and synergy (units interacting and enhancing each other) I look for in an army that is difficult to achieve at 2000 points in 8th edition (whereas I could do it in 7th edition) with certain armies (warriors, high elves, dark elves). If you are playing at 2000 points, then Dark Elves are really crippled because that army needs both the lvl4 and the dreadlord properly kitted to be top tier competitive. At 2000 points level, run two hydras, a lvl 4, a good master BSB, RXB warriors for core with one spearman unit and one dark rider unit (for war machines and stuff), and black guard and try to fit in a lvl 2 9to optimize the magic phase and fully use the winds of magic rolls) and a cauldron to support the BG unit, but the points will be tight. You could look at a COK unit with ASF banner with the BSB mounted for max armour save run in or nearby for Look Out Sir protection. Nearly all our local tourneys and the regional Indy GT's in our area are now at 2500 and our empires group plays with a base of 2500 and with gold and bonuses pushing the army up to 2750. I tried to scale my preferred 2500 to 2750 dark elf build (which wins a lot against well-rated players and almost never gets beaten badly, just suffering close losses or draws) to 2250 at one tourney and it was the first time I had a losing record. Similarly, the warriors builds I prefer really need 2250 to 2500 points min to be effective and don't scale down well. 

Given that, if I was playing at 2000 points, I'd look at skaven and lizardmen (the Slann is only slightly non-optimal if limited to 500 points) because they can scale down better to that tight points level for 8th edition. Daemons can scale down nicely and can still be almost broken with an max optimal build at 2500 but will struggle at 2000 only because the 25% limits will limit the number and kitting of the heralds (can get away with one HoTz and one HoKh and then build around bloodletter unit, horror unit, fleshhounds and flamers) and you'll have issues with the greater daemon points total.


----------



## the-graven

Why are lizzie's rated highest, remember they don't have much flexibility, with that I mean, you don't have that much to choose from, only 1 troop choice that can handle in combat and only 1 unit that can shoot infantry to dead(but does an awesome job at it) and the flankers are all overpriced, just compare them to other units from other armies who function sort of the same (Kroxigors<most MI, Steg< A-Bomb/Hydra, COC<then most cavalry in cost-efficiency( I mean 35 Pts, WTF))
Core: Saurus and Skinks, saurus are good troops, but they are the only combat troops you have, skink cohort can be sacrificial and skink skirmishers are not as good as they used to be
Special: TG are good with Slann. Terradons are not as good as they used to be but still nice. Chameleon Skinks are almost a must now. COC is still horribly overpriced, they cost too much. Kroxigors cost too much too, just compare them to other MI
Rare: Salamander=great

Lizards now almost have a standard list, Slann (in TG, this is optional), Saurus blocks, Chamo Skink, Salamanders and something to flank.

Also warmachines are great, Empire is like the best army with all that artillery and cheap troops and acces to the BRB magic lore, empire=N.1 IMO
And having played against Dwarves (my friends uses them) I say they take N.2 their really they're so annoying to play against with my lizzies, his warmachines kill somethign equal to their point cost EVERY TURN. ANd then there are rock-hard combat troops waiting to smash the left-overs, I need to spend a lot on anti-warmachine.

This might be a short and not in-depth post, but I'm in a hurry....


----------



## olderplayer

There are a number of reasons Lizardmen are so good in 8th edition, the primary one being the Slann. 

The Slann's ability to cast each spell with an extra dice and have access to Lore of Life (regen a wound on a character on each successful cast makes the Slann and possibly a nearby hero very tough to kill) is a huge advantage in 8th edition, as is the Slann's ability to hide in the second rank and still cast while the TG unit is in combat. 

Saurus warriors are now much better in 8th edition because they can take a charge and get to strike back hard in full force if ranked up. 

TG is better in 8th edition for the same reason as Saurus. Additionally, the new common magic banners really improve the TG unit's flexibiilty. 

The value of a skink and Krox combined unit (Skrox) has greatly increased with the new rules and the FAQ. The quick-to-strike rule makes javelins very effective and the new combat rules (strike in I order, allowance for models killed to be replaced by models from ranks behind and strike back, and allowance of supporting attacks from the second rank with 3 supporting attacks per Krox) makes this unit much better than before. You can march right up into shooting range of another unit, shoot it with poisoned javelins and again stand and shoot at short range when charged and then strike back with full force in combat. The ability of three Krox to attack and hit hard from the second rank without being hit back in combat (thanks to the FAQ) until the skinks are almost exhausted makes this unit very viable. The unit moves 6", which is great for a ranked infantry unit. The skinks, with shields, can take some parry saves. 

Chameleon skinks are underrated because they autowound on a roll of 6 and are scouts. This makes them particularly effective against war machines and monsters with high T but only modest AS, regen and ward saves. 

Salamanders benefit from the new skirmish rules, move at 6", can be run in multiples of up to 3 in a unit (may eat some of the skink handlers on misfires but not subject to monster reaction t4test), and the flaming shooting weapon (not a breath weapon; so shoots every turn) has surprising range and a -3 to AS impact. The skirmish and move allows the salamander unit to avoid combat, shoot down the flanks of units (virtually assuring a large number of hits 5/6 of the time), and to flank charge, if it makes sense to gain CR with the salamanders fighting in front of the skinks. Even though the strength of the flaming shooting attack is only 3, that means wounding common T3 and T4 cav and infantry on 4's and 5's and really limiting or eliminating the armour saves for even heavy cav. My cold old knight (dark elf unit) definitely does not like salamanders. Against horde infantry with an AS of 4+ or 5+, that means no armour save and a panic test. 

Teradons still have the annoying drop rocks ability and can take out war machines. 

Skirmishers can still redirect charges (especially with fixed formations), have poisoned shooting, and can bait and flee. 

Stegs now get thunderstomp in addition to their impact hits but are now more vulnerable to cannons, template hits (now hits on crew and mount), and direct hits from stone thrower-type weapons but EOTG is still a viable and tough character mount and the ward save and burning alignment are still to be feared. 

Basically, Lizardmen have good options for a flexible and balanced army against all opponents (except for a lack of heavy war machine shooting) in: scouts and skirmishers, good core infantry options, an excellent lvl 4 caster, monster and monstrous mount, and flyers with special abilities. Even the BSB re-roll for LD-type test rules make cold one cav better than before and all units less at risk of panic when close to the BSB.


----------



## coke123

the-graven said:


> Why are lizzie's rated highest, remember they don't have much flexibility, with that I mean, you don't have that much to choose from, only 1 troop choice that can handle in combat and only 1 unit that can shoot infantry to dead(but does an awesome job at it) and the flankers are all overpriced, just compare them to other units from other armies who function sort of the same (Kroxigors<most MI, Steg< A-Bomb/Hydra, COC<then most cavalry in cost-efficiency( I mean 35 Pts, WTF))


As said previously, Skink Cohorts are now a much better choice. Giving us two viable combat units- one elite and one horde. Cohorts are just plain nasty now that they can have so many attacks when deployed horde-style, and the fact that their Kroxigor are now protected only sweetens the deal. I agree that Kroxigor by themselves are somewhat lackluster, but really come into their own in a unit of skinks. Hence you'll rarely see them deployed by themselves. I don't know why you say stegs are worse than hydras; my EOTG eats pretty much everything for breakfast, whereas on a couple of occasions I've beaten a Hydra with a pair of Salamanders in combat. Cold One Cavalry isn't that great either, but in the latest edition most cavalry took a punch to the balls anyway.



the-graven said:


> Core: Saurus and Skinks, saurus are good troops, but they are the only combat troops you have, skink cohort can be sacrificial and skink skirmishers are not as good as they used to be
> Special: TG are good with Slann. Terradons are not as good as they used to be but still nice. Chameleon Skinks are almost a must now. COC is still horribly overpriced, they cost too much. Kroxigors cost too much too, just compare them to other MI
> Rare: Salamander=great


What on earth are you on about? Saurus and skink cohorts are both viable combat units (with the addition of Kroxigor), and cohorts can get off a whole heap of poisoned stand and shoot shots before they even fight. Skink skirmishers are much better in the current edition, due to the changes in the skirmisher rules for 8th. Skirmishers may now march-and-fire, meaning these guys can march 12" and still fire all their blowpipes. They used to be a sacrificial unit to protect Saurus, but with the changes to lore of life Saurus blocks are now far more survivable; and hence skirmish screens are no longer necessary. So now skirmishers take on a much more active role, taking out war machines and those pesky empire detachments.

The same goes for Terradons- they are much better now as well. Drop rocks is a nice ability, and due to the new true LoS rules, they can hide behind whatever infantry blocks you're using, thereby nullifying the majority of shooting, and then charge over your units to take out artillery. This brings me to my next point. Because of Terradons, chameleon skinks are hardly necessary, the two really have interchangeable roles. As you say, Cold One Cavalry is overpriced, but show me an army that doesn't have a single unit that is less than useful. There's always one. Kroxigor are not really overpriced, S7 is nothing to laugh at.

and like you say, salamander=great. for more reasons than most realise. Yes, touched=hit makes them incredibly powerful, but just as important is their speed. Since they operate as skirmishers, they also march and fire, and hence zoom 12" down the sides and unleash fiery death down the flanks.



the-graven said:


> Lizards now almost have a standard list, Slann (in TG, this is optional), Saurus blocks, Chamo Skink, Salamanders and something to flank.


This is incorrect. Skinks are still a viable choice in all forms, many involve stegs and terradons instead of chameleons. Lizardmen are still a fairly balanced and flexible army.



the-graven said:


> Also warmachines are great, Empire is like the best army with all that artillery and cheap troops and acces to the BRB magic lore, empire=N.1 IMO
> And having played against Dwarves (my friends uses them) I say they take N.2 their really they're so annoying to play against with my lizzies, his warmachines kill somethign equal to their point cost EVERY TURN. ANd then there are rock-hard combat troops waiting to smash the left-overs, I need to spend a lot on anti-warmachine.


I regularly play against an empire gunline. My lizardmen list atm is sub-optimal (in 7th I ran an oldblood on carnosaur, and hence need to make some purchases) and yet these armies are about even. The war machines take out their point cost every turn because you let them, skinks (chameleon or not) or terradons should be able to take care of them with few worries. and as for rock-hard combat troops, empire troops are in no way tougher than lizardmen. I don't see what your gripe is here. Lizardmen do need a fair amount on anti-war machine, but it doesn't matter since these a) the anti-war machine units usually cost less than the war machine they'll take out. a 90pt Terradon unit will make mince meat of any cannon, which will probably cost 100pts+, and b) The basic combat troops are very good at what they do. Look at Saurus with spears. 12pts/model, and the only only core they really need to worry about are chaos, and maybe high elves.



olderplayer said:


> Chameleon skinks are underrated because they autowound on a roll of 6 and are scouts. This makes them particularly effective against war machines and monsters with high T but only modest AS, regen and ward saves.
> 
> Salamanders benefit from the new skirmish rules, move at 6", can be run in multiples of up to 3 in a unit (may eat some of the skink handlers on misfires but not subject to monster reaction t4test), and the flaming shooting weapon (not a breath weapon; so shoots every turn) has surprising range and a -3 to AS impact. The skirmish and move allows the salamander unit to avoid combat, shoot down the flanks of units (virtually assuring a large number of hits 5/6 of the time), and to flank charge, if it makes sense to gain CR with the salamanders fighting in front of the skinks. Even though the strength of the flaming shooting attack is only 3, that means wounding common T3 and T4 cav and infantry on 4's and 5's and really limiting or eliminating the armour saves for even heavy cav. My cold old knight (dark elf unit) definitely does not like salamanders. Against horde infantry with an AS of 4+ or 5+, that means no armour save and a panic test.
> 
> Teradons still have the annoying drop rocks ability and can take out war machines.


What you've said makes sense, just a couple of points. Like I mentioned earlier, skirmishers march and fire. Hence salamanders move 12" and still shoot, same with all skirmishing skinks. hence is awesome. The Terradon's drop rocks rule is pretty much useless against war machines now that you always roll against the toughness of the machine. S4 hits against what is usually T7- no thanks, I'd rather charge at you and hit your crew with T3/4


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## Flindo

there not toys, there models....


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## the-graven

Don't get me wrong I love Lizzie's and the way they play, perhaps I didn't say it right.
I know the Slann is good, I know saurus are good, Skinks are usefull though I would build the core of your army around Saurus, I didn't mean Terradons use their Drop Rock ability to take out warmachines, I meant they fly over a unit (preferably Fast Cavalry or Skirmishers who are small in unit size) drop rocks, hide and then charge the warmachines.
I like Skrox too, they're usefull. And I never said Chamo Skinks are bad, they aren't underrated at all, they even get comped in some tournaments 
I know the value of Skirmishers and Sallie's, Sallie's became awesome and Skirmishers are still nice. But still COC are horrifyinly expensive and the steg is just as expensive as a A-Bomb but less strong and more expensive then a Hydra and not that much better. And Kroxigors really should have S5 as standard.
And I never said Lizzie's are bad.

Also gunlines are not the worst, they can be taken out effectively, semi-gunlines are annoying from my experience against dwarves (@2000 points he takes out 20 saurus a turn with ease then there's a 40-man warrior unit and 20-man Hammerer unit with awesome lord waiting for me)

I should have made things more clear, I apologise for that, all I wanted to say is that they don't have as much choices as a lot of other armies. Also Skink Cohorts without Krox are sacrificial, they're 5 pts compar that to a Marauder or so.


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## Archnomad

Skaven, Lizardmen, High Elves, Dwarfs, Daemons of Chaos (no really, but at higher point levels) or Warriors of Chaos (depending again on pt levels and your local).

If you play 3k WoC and Daemons really become viable. Daemons can work under that but magic hurts em. 

If I had to do it briefly:

Skaven: LD10 Bricks of slaves, shooting into combat with S5+ templates, Hellpit, good magic.

High Elves: Insane combat ability, Teclis, Only list that can do a good deathstar, or can run white lion choppy combat.

Lizardmen: Slann, Saurus, Stegadons (still good, learn how to stop cannons), Salamanders. Very hard to shift in combat and good magic support. It's kinda like an attrition army.

Daemons: Hitty hitty hitty. These guys pack quite a punch and can be hard to shift, but are fragile. They don't have any good magic options until higher point games. 

Dwarfs: Rocks in combat with ranged support that takes out monsters and thins infantry. Good magic defense. That's pretty much what it comes down to. 

WoC: In higher point games they're good because they can be backed up with solid magic and a Hellcannon battery. In lower point games they can be led around the nose somewhat. Probably the hardest combat army on the block though. Almost nothing beats warriors with halberds for points efficiency.


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## Tatsumaki

I wouldn't go *too* far into the whole lizardmen camp to be honest :/

Maybe it's just the way I play, but Saurus seem to suffer from their low WS and I levels at times. They are indeed cheap, S4 T4, and incredibly hard to shift, but that seems to be all they got to me. Call me ignorant lol

Also, there is also too much dependence on the Slaan unit. If your TG get run into by a stronger unit and the slaan dies, he's going to give away no less than 535 points (325 standard, 100 for being the general, 100 for being the BSB. Not counting his bodyguard)

Considering you could easily immolate your OWN temple guard with a few bad miscasts before you even make it to combat, I would leave him at home... But again, that's just me. I don't trust magic ^^.


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## olderplayer

Tats..: Try Cupped Hands and Lore of Life Throne of Vines (IRF force/miscast is ignored on 2+ on a D6) and the miscast risk goes way down. The Slann (with the ability to know all spells in a lore, pick among some of the best lores, and use one extra PD for each casting effort) is what makes the Lizardman army so formidable but also means that once or twice in a five game tourney you'll likely loose due to a bad miscast event. You can run a LM army without a Slann but it will be a lot harder to win against some armies and magic defense will be weak. 

The TG unit needs to be very large and preferrably have a hero or two in it to ensure its survival. It benefits from being buffed by spells and banners. Otherwise, it almost makes sense to leave the TG unit at home and run the Slann with Saurus using fullcommand and a hero or two to fill out the first rank and force the Slann to the second rank under 8th edition rules. Then consider shifting the Slann as needed or running it out to avoid combat later in the game if the ranged threats have been taken care of by then or the Slann can avoid LOS. 

Arch..: We don't play special characters in our normal campaigns and regional Indy GT and one-day tourneys (only Ard Boys allowed them), so Teclis is out and is often banned (the power scroll with dreaded 13th spell and book of hoeth are also banned) under our soft comp and list reviews for army lists submitted in advance for approval at tourneys. That means the High Elves are good but not tier one in 8th edition. 

Daemons are vulnerable to magic but two Heralds of Tzeentch and a decent sized horror unit can even the odds with the ability to spam dispel items and have each of the heralds carry Master of Sorcery. The MR of key Khorne units and flexibility of DoC armies means that they will often roll over most opponents in most games with an optimal build but are not broken as before at 2250 to 3000 points. 

Dwarves are so much better than before but a clear step behind Lizardmen and Skaven armies in 8th edition because of the lack of speed and flexibility. 

You really missed Empire. Empire has some builds about as competitive as Dwarves but suffer from certain vulnerabilities in 8th edition, especially with the Stank now being more vulnerable to magic. 

WoC are inferior to Dark Elves at the 2500 to 3000 points levels if Dark Elves are played properly but both armies struggle when at or below 2250 points.


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## mynameisgrax

It isn't so much armies, but exploitation of 5 elements that make an army competitive in 8th edition:

1. Magic Superiority

The big one. The ability to exploit a powerful lore of magic for all it's worth can easily turn games in your favor. The best lores are Life, Shadow, Death, and Beasts. The Skaven and Tzeentch (both Warriors and Daemons) Lores aren't bad either.

2. Close Combat Superiority

Winning in close combat is a combination of getting the most attacks, being able to take out the best armored opponents, maneuverability, and resilience. Few units can do all four, but a good army has all of these elements somewhere within it.

3. Lock Down

This is the ability to lock down your opponent's close combat units in a way they'll be useless for most of the game. The best way to do this is to get their most important units locked in close combat with huge hordes of infantry that are either unbreakable, or kept within command range of the general and a BSB, so they don't break. 

4. War Machines

Finally, you use plenty of war machines, which got a huge boost in 8th edition. They're all great now, especially since you no longer have to guess ranges, and they're a lot harder to take out through shooting.

5. The ability to counter as many of the above examples as possible

Pretty self explanatory. 


The best armies should have a combination of as many of the above elements as possible. There are exceptions, such as dwarves not having magic, but they're still good because they do everything else so well, especially warmachines. Also Skaven may not be that great at close combat, but their ability to lock down opponents is second to none.

All in all, I'd say the best armies are High Elves, Dark Elves, Dwarves, Empire, Warriors of Chaos, and Skaven.

Daemons of Chaos and Lizardmen are also good, but not quite as good as the rest listed above. Daemons have no war machines or no cheap infantry, but their CC and magic power still makes them formidable. Lizardmen have nearly everything, but no effective war machines, and it's difficult for them to have a good wizard without spending a lot of points (unless you like lore of heavens, which I don't care for).

There's also a particularly mean Vampire Counts list out there that focuses on using as many ghouls as possible, while exploiting lore of vampires to the utmost, but they're not a very well rounded army. 

Ogre Kingdoms also have a few very powerful lists, but Purple Sun and Pit of Shades are game ending spells when used against them. 

Brets are pretty good at high points, when they can exploit the lance formation, which makes them the only cavalry that can consistently break infantry hordes.


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## Tatsumaki

Olderplayer: It's not that I was trying to disrespect Lizards or anything, I'm just sick of playing against that build. For example I had one guy play against me using Lore of Light instead of Lore of Life, and that way he ended up with WS10 I10 M8 TG, re-rolls to hit and 3 attacks each. Since he did it with a horde of 30 models, it was pretty much all over bar the shouting.

I've also played against a completely contrary build where my enemy brought next to nothing but a load of Stegadon and a Carnosaur. The build didn't have a slaan in it, or TG, but he did hold off my magic and stampeded everything to death. I gotta say I like it when people don't use lore of life .D I think it was an even more fun battle because of it ^^.


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## Justindkates

olderplayer said:


> There are a number of reasons Lizardmen are so good in 8th edition, the primary one being the Slann.
> 
> The Slann's ability to cast each spell with an extra dice and have access to Lore of Life (regen a wound on a character on each successful cast makes the Slann and possibly a nearby hero very tough to kill) is a huge advantage in 8th edition, as is the Slann's ability to hide in the second rank and still cast while the TG unit is in combat.
> 
> Saurus warriors are now much better in 8th edition because they can take a charge and get to strike back hard in full force if ranked up.
> 
> TG is better in 8th edition for the same reason as Saurus. Additionally, the new common magic banners really improve the TG unit's flexibiilty.
> 
> The value of a skink and Krox combined unit (Skrox) has greatly increased with the new rules and the FAQ. The quick-to-strike rule makes javelins very effective and the new combat rules (strike in I order, allowance for models killed to be replaced by models from ranks behind and strike back, and allowance of supporting attacks from the second rank with 3 supporting attacks per Krox) makes this unit much better than before. You can march right up into shooting range of another unit, shoot it with poisoned javelins and again stand and shoot at short range when charged and then strike back with full force in combat. The ability of three Krox to attack and hit hard from the second rank without being hit back in combat (thanks to the FAQ) until the skinks are almost exhausted makes this unit very viable. The unit moves 6", which is great for a ranked infantry unit. The skinks, with shields, can take some parry saves.
> 
> Chameleon skinks are underrated because they autowound on a roll of 6 and are scouts. This makes them particularly effective against war machines and monsters with high T but only modest AS, regen and ward saves.
> 
> Salamanders benefit from the new skirmish rules, move at 6", can be run in multiples of up to 3 in a unit (may eat some of the skink handlers on misfires but not subject to monster reaction t4test), and the flaming shooting weapon (not a breath weapon; so shoots every turn) has surprising range and a -3 to AS impact. The skirmish and move allows the salamander unit to avoid combat, shoot down the flanks of units (virtually assuring a large number of hits 5/6 of the time), and to flank charge, if it makes sense to gain CR with the salamanders fighting in front of the skinks. Even though the strength of the flaming shooting attack is only 3, that means wounding common T3 and T4 cav and infantry on 4's and 5's and really limiting or eliminating the armour saves for even heavy cav. My cold old knight (dark elf unit) definitely does not like salamanders. Against horde infantry with an AS of 4+ or 5+, that means no armour save and a panic test.
> 
> Teradons still have the annoying drop rocks ability and can take out war machines.
> 
> Skirmishers can still redirect charges (especially with fixed formations), have poisoned shooting, and can bait and flee.
> 
> Stegs now get thunderstomp in addition to their impact hits but are now more vulnerable to cannons, template hits (now hits on crew and mount), and direct hits from stone thrower-type weapons but EOTG is still a viable and tough character mount and the ward save and burning alignment are still to be feared.
> 
> Basically, Lizardmen have good options for a flexible and balanced army against all opponents (except for a lack of heavy war machine shooting) in: scouts and skirmishers, good core infantry options, an excellent lvl 4 caster, monster and monstrous mount, and flyers with special abilities. Even the BSB re-roll for LD-type test rules make cold one cav better than before and all units less at risk of panic when close to the BSB.



Yeah Skinks firing 40 poison darts at your 400 point Ogre Tyrant and wounding on a 6 is not pleasant at all.


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## CLT40k

Justin, you sound bitter  I believe this comment stems from our match the other night, when I had 40 skinks shooting poisoned darts at his bulls... 80 shots (hit on 6's = 15ish hits with poison autowounding)

That being said... I think I play a rather contrary list... it's built around 30 Chameleon Skinks and 20 Skink Skirmishers... With a small Slann + TG (for the LOS), a big TG unit, 2x blocks of 18 Saurus, and a couple of Sallies... The ability to march and fire, and then stand and shoot, will put a real hurting on a lot of armies. Also, I always torrent with multiple units... Life magic means dwellers and T8 guys... 

The downside to Lizards, IMO, is that with such low Initiative, they're begging to get nuked by magic. Part of that can be mitigated by Becalming Cognition, but as soon as it hits, you're in trouble.... So in a lot of ways, I feel like it's a bit of a glass hammer... Though in fairness, I haven't played vs anyone who has been able to really compete in the magic phase with my Slann...


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## stevebucknor1

I have choices - buy a new army (and pay for it to be painted), or complete one of the armies that's causing the beams in my loft to groan with the strain of all that stored metal (there's 50 or so historical armies up there as well). This is really amazing and fantastic.


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