# A Nid rant (read if you care about nid fluff)



## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

It is already rare to see anyone talk about tyranids, but it seems like when someone does bring up the tyranids, and inevitably, the hive mind, they talk about it like somewhere there is a giant tyranid "brain bug" making all the decisions for the fleets. This is not how a hive mind works, that is an overmind, there is a big difference. A hive mind works by having all the creatures in the group behaving in a way that benefits the whole, and the whole acts to benefit the individuals of the whole, this can make the illusion that there is a core brain but there isn't. an overmind is one mind controlling the thoughts and actions of many lesser minds, like the zerg, if the nids had an overmind the writers at gw would have said 'overmind' instead of 'hive mind'. How do i know that this is how a hive mind works? BECAUSE A HIVE MIND IS A REAL CONCEPT! Insects, fish, and at times even humans all become part of a hive mind at some point or another. describing the tyranid hive mind as a single brain is like saying that in termite colonies there is a termite that makes all the decisions for the colony, does that sound insane to you? because it sure sounds insane to me; and no termite queens do not make decisions for the colony, they just make eggs, that's it. Why is this so hard to understand? can anyone explain to me why it seems like everyone who plays tyranids, or discusses tyranid fluff makes this misconception over and over? I'm personally at a loss.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I hadnot thought about it from this point of view before but you may be right. What about the norn queens though? I thought they were the centre of the hive mind. In one of the books in the UM omnibus they kill one and a whole hive fleet desintegrates.


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

norn queens are like termite/bee queens they make baby nids, they really have no other higher function. but like in termite/bee colonies that is really important as the future of the colony, or in this case, hive fleet, depends on the queen's survival so yes there would be an immediate panic if a norn queen was killed. besides if a norn queen dies doesn't a random dominatrix in the hive become the next norn queen thus restoring the natural order like in ant colonies?


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

Norn queens direct the 'evolution' of the fleet, and are themselves nodes for the hive mind, not controlling brains. 

Think of them like a botnet - except the botnet makes its own decisions, to benefit itself - it's not a slave to some single user.


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## Jolly Puggles (Aug 4, 2009)

I can only assume that people assume that the "hive mind" is an overmind because of the presence of synapse creatures (Hive Tyrants, Tyranid Warriors, etc.). Now, you and I know that this isn't the case, but I presume the assumption made is that synapse creatures are relays for the commands of the overmind to the lesser tyranid (Gaunts, etc.). It makes a certain amount of sense within the terminology that the tyranid are described in, but it's still wrong. Rather, the synapse creatures have the psychic potential to _include _the lesser tyranid in the hive mind connected to the fleet. Without them, the lesser tyranid are simply not part of the hive until they come into range of another synapse creature.


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## ajchafe (Aug 13, 2009)

I would assume that even in the hive mind concept there is a hierarchy or some sort though. The most basic Tyranids are "controlled" or take "orders" from something a little higher up, who take orders from something else, and so on and so on. Now, that does not mean to say that there is one organism at the very top, as that would be counter productive from an evolutionary standpoint. But maybe there is a tyranid type somewhere out there that acts as a psychic hub of sorts for the hivemind concept. But instead of being an "Overmind" its just part of the whole system itself. However, it is suggested in the fluff that killing one of these hubs (Apparently the Norn Queen) will disrupt the psychic connection to the hivemind, causing the lesser Tyranids to loose any sort of direction or purpose and just go berserk.


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## Alexander_67 (May 5, 2007)

Your working on the ethos of "A hive mind works by having all the creatures in the group behaving in a way that benefits the whole, and the whole acts to benefit the individuals of the whole" But i'm only seeing one part of that from tyranid behaviour. Individual benefit is sacrificed, aka there isnt one. Tyranid individuals die in a horrific hellstorm of carnage and even if the live they are merely digested once again to go back to the hive. That doesnt suggest to me mutual benefit, it suggests merely that some higher life form is using an expendable lower life resource to get what it wants. 

I understand from a biological stand point that the hive mind is like the (NERD ALERT) Borg from star trek, a collective of individuals working for the goals of the hive itself. All of them doing their part so to speak, but tyranid Behaviour dictates to me overmind tendencies. 

Though it is a big terminology mistake GW obviously called it the hive mind because it sounds scary. I'm afraid of the hive mind. The image it conjures are swarming insects, drones and slaves to single dominant purpose all giving up free will and free thinking to work toilingly (may not be a real word) for a master who doesnt even exist, a master who is your brothers and sisters all working beside you. Like communism only without the Stalin. 

Overmind doesnt scare me much, in fact it just make me think that whatever is called the overmind is just good at chess.


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

Alexander_67 said:


> Your working on the ethos of "A hive mind works by having all the creatures in the group behaving in a way that benefits the whole, and the whole acts to benefit the individuals of the whole" But i'm only seeing one part of that from tyranid behaviour. Individual benefit is sacrificed, aka there isnt one. Tyranid individuals die in a horrific hellstorm of carnage and even if the live they are merely digested once again to go back to the hive. That doesnt suggest to me mutual benefit, it suggests merely that some higher life form is using an expendable lower life resource to get what it wants.
> 
> I understand from a biological stand point that the hive mind is like the (NERD ALERT) Borg from star trek, a collective of individuals working for the goals of the hive itself. All of them doing their part so to speak, but tyranid Behaviour dictates to me overmind tendencies.
> 
> ...


I'm not comparing the Tyranids to the borg, I'm comparing them to ants, termites, and bees. real animals that follow a real hive mind. in ant, bee, and termite colonies soldier classes also will throw themselves at larger enemies in an almost (in some cases literal) suicidal fashion for the benefit of the hive as a whole, not unlike the tyranids. 

and no, surviving tyranids aren't actually digested, they are gathered up and sent to the next world to be thrown at the next defense. if you don't believe me the entry on rippers says that only in smaller fleets are they digested when full; in larger fleets the ripper will regurgitate it's meal into the digestion pool and then continue on it's way devouring biomass.

The flaw in your understanding, as i see it is that you are trying to apply a human understanding of leadership to an otherwise inhuman creature.


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## pylco (Jun 2, 2008)

hive mind can have a dual meaning. first is: as you said a collective mind, all the creatures share there minds like the borgs. the second is: the mind of the hive, one super creature that controls all the others, acting as THE mind for the hive thus the term hive mind. it's simply a matter of words, but it is an interesting thread you started!!!!


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## revenant13 (Feb 15, 2008)

yeah, fyi insects do what they do based on pheremones detected and such. they gotta come from somewhere. *overmind and his flunkies*


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

The Hive Mind is essentially the collective consciousness of a Tyranid Hive Fleet or the entire Tyranid Species.

The Problem with comparing it to ants, bees or termites is that the Hive Mind is based on a collective consciousness which is psychic in nature, connected via the warp. It is a 'presence' which is formed from untold trillions of individuals, which forms an extremley powerful warp 'power'. Tyranids are dependent in this sense of the Hive Mind, Ants and Bees are not.

There is no singular bug that controls or completley guides the Hive Mind and thus the Tyranid Species, but rather the collective consciousness which is the Hive Mind controls itself for the benefit of the entire species. 

The inconsistency is that The Hive Mind seems to be guided or chanelled by the synapse creatures (Norn Queens, Hive Tyrants etc), and if a basic gaunt is not within the presence of such a creature, they lose contact with the Hive Mind, and generally just become 'mindless' or totally individually instinctive. 

Don't think that really helps but thats my take anyway


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Loving this rant from Ironhammer... unfortunatly his argument is deeply flawed.

The tyranid hive mind isnt an insect style hive mind: ants communicate through pheromones but they arent 'connected' to each other in a larger sense. A few ants that have been cut off from the nest dont know that they are alone- they keep acting in the same way- you cant remove an ant from 'synapse range'.

Tyranids are 'connected' to a greater intelligence... it really doesnt matter if they add to it or if it just orders them around or not: while connected they are different from when they are not. Therefore overmind or true hive mind matters very little in the 'practical' effectsof the swarm.
Basically put who cares if the nids are getting ordered about by 1 giant control centre or if they are being ordered about by a gestalt of trillions of tiny minds (even if 1 of the tiniest voices is their own)... they are still being ordered about and will still act like wild beasts if cut off from the larger mind.


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

the psychic synapse is essentially preforming the same function as pheromone signals. moving the swarms as a unified whole and serving as a form of communication between nids.

and if tim/steve really doesn't care, or believe it to be important how the hivefleets work, then why is he even... oh nevermind.


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## primeministersinsiter (May 31, 2009)

Maybe it's like Ender's Game where each organism is an extension of a larger conciseness but there is a signal point from which the decisions are made. I know it's a not perfect explanation, but it's something.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

ironhammer said:


> the psychic synapse is essentially preforming the same function as pheromone signals. moving the swarms as a unified whole and serving as a form of communication between nids.
> 
> and if tim/steve really doesn't care, or believe it to be important how the hivefleets work, then why is he even... oh nevermind.



All creatures in a hive mind that relies upon pheromones is able to lay down the pheromone trails. If the tyranid hive mind was an extension of this then small groups of tyranids should have the same... especially if they have a synapse creature there (assuming that they work like a local hub, allowing all the nids to communicate), but this doesnt happen- small cut off units of nids act like beasts.. not like stupid versions of the larger hive (they dont act as 1 force any longer).

And I said it doesnt matter, not that I dont care... I care because you brought this rant into another thread (ok probably started there) based largely based on something I wrote... I find that drive enough to come here and laugh at the holes in your logic and the basis for your rant- hive mind or overmind really doesnt make much difference unless- if its an overmind then you can kill the largest bug and then party... but if its a hive mind then you just take out the synapse transmitters (the largest synapse creatures.. whatever they are) then the same thing happens...


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## Sytus (Aug 27, 2009)

I may just end the argument with:

*According to the fluff no-one knows if the hive-mind is really a "hive mind".It's just a name,you're not supposed t understand it,does it really matter?*


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

primeministersinsiter said:


> Maybe it's like Ender's Game where each organism is an extension of a larger conciseness but there is a signal point from which the decisions are made. I know it's a not perfect explanation, but it's something.


This is how I've always interpreted how the Tyranids work. Basically, the Hive Mind is an entity of some sort that communicates its orders to the lesser intelligences under its command (like Hive Tyrants, Tyranid Warriors and other Synapse Creatures), who in turn relay orders to the least sophisticated organisms (Gaunts and the like). I've also always thought that the Hive Mind itself had the ability to "see through the eyes" of any Synapse creature in order to observe happenings as closely as possible and make decisions on how best to respond to the events unfolding before the warrior beasts.


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## Salahaldin (Aug 15, 2009)

I agree with Katie Drake, I believe that the Hive Mind is an entity, not a collective conscious shared by all Tyranids. There's the fact that Tigurius has tapped into the "Hive Mind" which would be a little impossible if the mind was shared and contributed to by every tyranid there is. If every Tyranid contributed to the mind, then synapse wouldn't really be necessary, would it? But a single controlling organism that sends its messages through the synapse hierarchy makes perfect sense.


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

The way I see it, nids do have a collective conciousness, the hive mind, however, not EVERY critter that is part of the tyranid fleet is part of this. Only the higher beings, aka synapse creatures and genestealers are actually part of this conciousness, the others are simply biological tools / shock troops that are used by the fleet to achieve it's ends.
This is why killing a synapse creature hurts tyranids more than just lower bugs. 
The Norn queen in this is yet another step up from the regular synapse creatures that are part of this collective mind, in that she is a directive part of the whole organism. Like a spinal cord in a human body, though instead of hooking up the brain to the various organs, she hooks up the various parts of the psychic individuals to a larger whole.
Thus killing it, severs the fleet's psychic intercommunication network, creating utter chaos, because it fragments the conciousness into it's component parts.
Also, killing a strong psychic member of said psychic overbrain is like sticking a needle into this huge collective conciousness, put this in the right spot and you'll have the rest going nuts as well, which in turn ofcourse also affects the non-psychic parts of the tyranid fleet, which suddenly gets all kinds of confusing impulses, or none at all, making them go berserk.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

The Hive Mind is unknowable. The Hive Mind is all-consuming. The Hive Mind is the Sky Mother is the Devourer is the Beast and is coming, is coming, is coming...

The Hive Mind is coming.

*ahem*, that aside, I have to agree whole-heartedly with Inquisitor Einar.

The Hive Mind is very much a collective, hungering, gestalt entity - quite similar to the Chaos Gods, if you think about it. The daemons of the gods are mere facets, insignificant dreamings, but when combined, they create the Chaos Gods. The sum of the whole is greater than the constituent parts. The Tyranids are in effect, as I interpret it, a corporeal god, rather than immaterial one.

Hail the Sky Mother! She comes to consume all into her hungering embrace!


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

People often get terms like; Hive mind, Compound mind, and Over mind mixed up. These are incredibly complex ideas to explain, even my biology lecturers won't touch this with a 10 foot pole (yes these ideas are present in everyday biology, not just in SF. In fact people are believed to be a compound mind of different personalities!).

Basically (well from my understanding):

Over mind - Zerg - There is a 'head' to this system. This system follows a tree diagram. The military follows a similar arrangement; You have a commander, who is in charge of his lieutenants, who are in charge of their troops.

Hive mind - Tyranids - There is no 'head' to this system. There is no central control, no creature who's mind controls all the lesser ones. The 'mind' is contained in all the synapse creatures in a 'node' system, so as you kill synapse creatures ('nodes') you're weakening the mind (but there are so many 'nodes' it has little overall effect on the mind). The larger the synapse creatures brain the larger the 'node' it represents. Also the larger the density of nodes in a particular area the increased control the mind has. So killing a large node greatly lowers the density of nodes and hence lowers the control the mind has. This accounts for the large disruption observed in killing a large synapse creature, which greatly lowers the 'synapse density' (yeah I made this phrase up, you wanna fight about it?) and hence lowers the coordination of creatures in that area.

Compound mind - The Flood, Alex Mercer - Even more difficult to explain than the above two. A type of Over mind in which the mind is made up of thousands of separate minds grafted together. Eg: Mercer has access to all the memories, and hence most likely the personality of all those he has consumed. It is fair to assume that if he were to consume say?... Lots of merciless, ruthless soldiers, like the blackwatch, his personality would shift towards merciless and ruthless.

As a final note I'd just like to say that all the above examples are from fictional sources and while I'm sure the writers had a pretty good idea on how each worked, keep in mind that they are just games, and are probably open to interpretation.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

the Hive Mind stuff is all a bit dodgy, the Hive Fleets come from the edge of the KNOWN galaxy (which is huuge) and if, taking into account the REAL size of the universe, the Hive Fleet would NEVER reach the KNOWN galaxy, its a one in a billion billion etc chance, and if they did, they would have devoured so much they would just be so huge and so monstrous there would not be enough room in the KNOWN galaxy for them 

I see KNOWN because thats all we get to see in the 40K universe, the Hive tendrils come from the sides (UNKNOWN galaxy, not nothing)

First (technically second, first was accident) post wooo
Farseer D


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## piemaster (Oct 9, 2009)

Yeah I just skimmed this. I think the point is that the writers at GW are into games and aren't biologists/philosophers/holders of multiple doctorates.

'Hive Mind' I would imagine was used as it sounds like it fits in with the idea that Tyrannids are hive workers (even though the name is meant to conjure up imagery of Dinosaurs - Tyran = Tyrannosaurus Rex). The lesser beasts revert to basic instincts when they are not in synapse range which would lead me to believe that they are being controlled by a higher organism and therefore subject to an 'overmind'

Really its just bad rhetoric on the part of non-educated writers. Don't get me wrong, they're good at what they do but more research would reduce confusion. But if this were to happen I wouldn't have anything to say in such a forum so its all good as far as I'm concerned.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

In regards to what people said earlier about a tactic to "starve" the Nids so that they lose cohesion - it doesn't really work that way. I mean, they have crossed the great and terrible void between galaxies, so they're bound to be able to wait a dozen planets or so more.

What Kryptman did was to capture genestealers and put them into the ork empire of Octavius, and then proceed to exterminatus (dozens of) planets in a ring/sphere around Octavius, so that the Nids would be attracted to the high bio-mass of the orks and not stray off onto any of the surroundings. Unfortunately, Kryptman forgot to account for a few facts - that the orks thrive on warfare, and the the Nids thrive off their meals. So both forces are getting stronger and stronger - and whichever wins will be virtually unstoppable.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> Unfortunately, Kryptman forgot to account for a few facts - that the orks thrive on warfare, and the the Nids thrive off their meals. So both forces are getting stronger and stronger - and whichever wins will be virtually unstoppable.


Orks and Tyranids getting stronger?

Liek I said earleir, unless there is sme huge Ork empire far off we cant see, the Tyranids are the ultimate power in the universe, so strengthening the orks is really our only hope (although there ISNT hope)

Even if EVERYTHING combined together against the Tyranids there would still be no chance of defeating them.

Farseer D (doing a bit of doom here!:grin


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## Bushido (Sep 22, 2009)

I thought the whole hive mind thing was pretty obvious and I cant really think of a time where people have got it wrong


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> Orks and Tyranids getting stronger?
> 
> Liek I said earleir, unless there is sme huge Ork empire far off we cant see, the Tyranids are the ultimate power in the universe, so strengthening the orks is really our only hope (although there ISNT hope)
> 
> ...


I never said that the Orks would get strong enough.

There are nothing but projections by Imperial lex-calculi and savants that suggest that there are greater Hive Fleets coming. Admittedly, those savants suggest that the "Mother Fleet" of the Nids will be coming in about a century, and that to even slow it down, the ENTIRE populations of the three of the Imperium's five Segmenta would have to be mobilized for combat duty...so yes, the Nids might very well be the most dangerous threat out there currently.

Remember, though, that when they come tearing through, devouring all life, their next step is to leave for the next galaxy. The Necrons can merely go back to sleep - just like the Enslaver Plague after the War of the Heavens. The 'Crons are eternal, immortal: they shall, in the long run, triumph.

But we aren't talking about who will be the ultimate galactic victor; we're talking about the Nids. So, the Orks: the Overfiend of Octavius (the Warboss ruling the Ork Empire of Octavius) and his like thrive on combat. They literally put on bulk and muscle and bone mass (eg Ghazghkull, or even any Warboss, being bigger than "dose otha weedy runts"). So, when a massive Nid fleet crashes into one of the largest extant Ork Empires, the Orks therein are going to get rather large and tuff in the scraps that they have. Yes, it's very hard to beat the Nids, because with their every victory, they grow much larger and stronger, but Orks from all over the galaxy are flocking to Octavius "ta get in on the acshun".

The situation is currently described as being balanced on a knife's edge, with unimaginable forces that make Armageddon look like a backwater planet that had a minor raider problem clashing constantly. Ork spores wrestle for survival with Nid micro-organisms, Gaunts clash with Boyz by the billion, Gargants smash into Bio-Titans, and colossal space battles are fought.

If the Orks win, they'll be one of the most amped-up, beefy forces around, with orks (potentially) the size of dreadnoughts rampaging outward in unstoppable Waaagh!s (discounting the Nid Mother Fleet arriving to clean all of our clocks). And think of the atrocities that the Nids will create with all of that ork biomass, should they win...

It's a lose-lose situation for the Imperium.

(I've also read a highly imaginative fan fiction (that has little to no place here) where the two combine into a "New Devourer" that is spore-based, severed from the Great Devourer, and utterly unstoppable. :hang1: )


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