# Fireprisms, why so much love?



## syypher (Aug 11, 2010)

*This is all in regards to Mech Eldar lists*

Why is there so much love for dual prisms in lists? I understand that one normally isn't chosen to run alone but why the Prism? I think there are much better choices than the Fire Prism in the heavy slot. Infiltrating ScatterWalkers and Falcons come to mind. Falcons especially when they have a DA squad in it or are being guided. Even without guide though I believe a scoring falcon outweighs the benefits a Prism can give.

Reasons I don't think the Prism is the best choice is because:
-I don't think a small blast that will hit 1-2 models vs a competent opponent is worth it
-I don't think phasing together 2 shots to have a SMALL blast TL and S10 AP1 is worth 230 pts. More if you take them out of the bare minimum.
-There are other better options to complement what a Mechdar list requires. Anti-AV in Falcons and Fire Dragons, Anti-Infantry/Light Transports in Scatterwalker and ShuriCannons Underslung and Waveserpents.
-Their Dispersed shot is great when its phased together and its just decent when not. Again the need to combine shots is a drawback. S6AP3 is nice though...but costly.

Any other thoughts on this? Why do so many people like the Prism so much? I'm trying to debate if it's worth my time to magnetize my Falcon into a Prism also instead of proxying. (Tournaments) If you like the Prism can you help me understand why?


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

Personally, Im a fan of the Night Spinner myself

The Night Spinner's worked for me in the past, so I see no reason to suddenly take a Fire Prism instead


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## wombat_tree (Nov 30, 2008)

I think perhaps because of their versatility. With two of them (or more) you can adapt to pretty much any role.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

They're popular because they're good, simple as that. 

The individual Large Blasts are great for shooting up Hordes, the Small Blasts are fairly accurate Lascannon shots on vehicles and they provide Eldar with some Long Range AP2 weaponry, remember Pulse Lasers are fired by Guardians. 

When you have 2 the Large S6 AP3 Blast is a great Marine Killer, and the S10 AP1 shot is better than anything we have in the codex at that range, only Fire Dragons are better at killing Armour. If you can ping that Land Raider Turn 1 before you have to get close to it, it affords you some luxury in time as the Thaminators foot slog etc. 

When you compare it to things like the Night Spinner it's just Infinitely better. The Night Spinner helps against Infantry, which is not what Eldar need, it bolsters an already strong part of your force. Scatter Walkers are great but cannot threaten serious armour, but then you can always take 2 Prism and 3 Scatter Walkers.

The Night Spinner also has the disadvantage that you cannot use it in GW Tournies like Throne of Skulls.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Not an Eldar player, but I almost was when it was timemto pick an army. And the Fire Prism was a factor.

First, Eldar don't have many blasts, small or large. It has better BS than the Falcon and the war walkers so you can rely on it a bit more.

That, and the ability to link shots, while not that great, can lead to some memorable Monlith-destroying or Terminator-melting episodes that keeps players warm at night for years afterwards.


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## CardShark (Dec 20, 2010)

a twin linked ap 3 large blast is also a very easy way to drop a space marine squad


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## TimberWolfA (Jan 12, 2010)

I'm not really trying to rain on anybody's parade, but I love seeing a pair of Prisms across the board from me. All I have to do is 'Shake' one of them and it's like I turned off 200+ points of their list for the ensuing turn.

A single prism is still a significant threat (Lascannon output on a 3" Blast is pretty good, especially since BS4(or3) on blasts is about as accurate as BS4 on non-blasts). I think, though, that the this is largely due to how awesome S9 AP2 is against enemy AV infantry models (such as Broadsides and Obliterators, both of which lose their VERY good armor save and are ID by S9).


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## shadowzarch (Mar 16, 2010)

Try this, place one at that 48' range in some cover, fortune it, and watch as the enemy throws in 8+ str. 8+ shots, because 



TimberWolfA said:


> All I have to do is 'Shake' one of them and it's like I turned off 200+ points of their list for the ensuing turn.


 8 S8+ shots, 4+ re-rollable save...2 hit. He shuold get atleast 1 glance/pen. and yep, he just turned off 200+ for one time while the rest my transports move up unmolested.


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## TimberWolfA (Jan 12, 2010)

shadowzarch said:


> Try this, place one at that 48' range in some cover, fortune it, and watch as the enemy throws in 8+ str. 8+ shots, because
> 
> 
> 
> 8 S8+ shots, 4+ re-rollable save...2 hit. He shuold get atleast 1 glance/pen. and yep, he just turned off 200+ for one time while the rest my transports move up unmolested.


You assume I'm a moron, nice move. You only disadvantage yourself by underestimating your opponents (Especially one's like me; I know your army's weak points. If you reinforce one, then I'll pick the next best target. Feel free to taunt though, that's so awesome on an online forum).


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## shadowzarch (Mar 16, 2010)

Thank you TimberwolfA for being able to take a gentle joshing at your expense in such a diginified manner, it is quite refreashing to see. As well, you further enhanced my point. because the point of said tatic is to force the opponet to think.



TimberWolfA said:


> If you reinforce one, then I'll pick the next best target.


Target priority is the name of the game in 40k, espcially in an eldar army, because as our friend here pointed out, when an opponent knows your armies weak points. If I can better control my opponents shooting phase by discourging him to shoot and some, and encouraging him to shoot at others then i've done the best I can do.

Thanks for being a good sport TimberwolfA:victory:


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

TimberWolfA said:


> You assume I'm a moron, nice move. You only disadvantage yourself by underestimating your opponents (Especially one's like me; I know your army's weak points. If you reinforce one, then I'll pick the next best target. Feel free to taunt though, that's so awesome on an online forum).


I'm curious, what is a player like you?


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## shadowzarch (Mar 16, 2010)

Didn't you read his post? he is obviously a general of the highest capacity for being able to recognize that shaked vehicles dont shoot and that the eldar army has very obvious weak points that the people who actually use them as their army seem to neglect and leave totally vunerable.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Aramoro said:


> They're popular because they're good, simple as that...


I would add "fairly cheap" to that list.

You get a lot of tank for 115 pts.

Thats why.


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## TimberWolfA (Jan 12, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> I'm curious, what is a player like you?


I refuse to bite. Bait someone else.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

MaidenManiac said:


> I would add "fairly cheap" to that list.
> 
> You get a lot of tank for 115 pts.
> 
> Thats why.


Yup, one of the few armies whose MBT (Falcon/Prism) costs the same as their most basic troop transport.

Roll on 5th Ed codex...

In the meantime, I find that unless I'm playing vs heavy Mech (AV13 walls etc) I generally will take 2x Falcons and 3x Walkers over 1x Falcon and 2x Prisms, simply because a guided Pulse Laser and Walker squadron will do the same damage or more than the prisms against almost all targets, takes longer to get rid of, and is harder to disrupt. ~15 wounds on a Tac squad from a Guided Walker squad generally kills about the same as ~4-5 men hit by a large prism blast, while only taking one unit to pull off and giving the chance to kill Sergeants/Specials through wound allocation. And it doesn't matter about cover either, whereas the Prism suddenly looks a lot worse when 50% of the models it hits survive.

That said, I haven't tried the 2x Prism, 3x Walker setup so I might give that a go at some point...


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

TimberWolfA said:


> I refuse to bite. Bait someone else.


Aww but I'm genuinely curious, you were quick to big yourself up a moment a go so I'd like to know. Do share, unless you've got nothing of course, then feel free to say nothing. 




> Roll on 5th Ed codex...
> 
> In the meantime, I find that unless I'm playing vs heavy Mech (AV13 walls etc) I generally will take 2x Falcons and 3x Walkers over 1x Falcon and 2x Prisms, simply because a guided Pulse Laser and Walker squadron will do the same damage or more than the prisms against almost all targets, takes longer to get rid of, and is harder to disrupt. ~15 wounds on a Tac squad from a Guided Walker squad generally kills about the same as ~4-5 men hit by a large prism blast, while only taking one unit to pull off and giving the chance to kill Sergeants/Specials through wound allocation. And it doesn't matter about cover either, whereas the Prism suddenly looks a lot worse when 50% of the models it hits survive.
> 
> That said, I haven't tried the 2x Prism, 3x Walker setup so I might give that a go at some point...


I quite like Dual Falcon and Walkers but that BS3 lets me down time and time again. I tend to go for the Dual Prisms and Walkers and it works well, you get some big template action for hordes and some Blast Lascannons which do a decent job of Anti-tank. I almost never combine them as that's slightly pointless. The only time I would consider combining them is if a Target of opportunity presents its self, a Squad of Marines getting stranded in the open, a LR without Smoke etc, in those cases it's worth a punt. The Falcon will perform well and about equal to the Prism in most cases but it will never give you that 1/100 opportunity that the Prism gives you.


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## inigo montoya (Feb 1, 2009)

Dual prisms and walkers. Yes.
"All you gots to do is shake them"
uh huh, again, shoot all of the high strength weaponry required to get a shaken on my prism. My dragons move up uncontested.
Oh, you are smarter than that - you will use target priority and shoot the dragons? Hmmm my prisms are unscathed and drop the templates on their turn.
It is called target saturation, and it works in the opposite fashion as target priority.

They are used so much because they are cheap and good.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> I quite like Dual Falcon and Walkers but that BS3 lets me down time and time again.


It might just be me, but since I run with Eldrad and a Guide/Fortune Seer then I find the triple-Guide mitigates BS3, making it slightly more accurate than BS4 - although I agree there are some times where you roll your two shots, miss, and then reroll only to miss twice more, which does tend to stick in your head.

I just like my DAVU Falcons too much to let them go easily.  So versatile and resilient...


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Sethis said:


> It might just be me, but since I run with Eldrad and a Guide/Fortune Seer then I find the triple-Guide mitigates BS3, making it slightly more accurate than BS4 - although I agree there are some times where you roll your two shots, miss, and then reroll only to miss twice more, which does tend to stick in your head.
> 
> I just like my DAVU Falcons too much to let them go easily.  So versatile and resilient...


Ah I run Eldrad and a Doomseer so I have less Guide to go round. I think that's the problem with examining a unit out of context though. I think Prisms are generally good but not in every list.


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## whiplash308 (Jan 14, 2009)

I'm picking up Eldar rather slowly after my CSM, as I'm getting the occasional unit every now and then. I think some people field them in 2 or more because the idea of linking shots together is quite a unique one, and I'd have to agree it's a very cool mechanic. However I'd have to go with above posts, I'd buy it for the hell of the Night Spinner. In other news, I'd definitely go with Falcons over a FP purchase however, I just like the standard Scatter Lasers or Starcannons among other Eldar weaponry. 

Since I'm here, someone just clarify something real quick: War Walkers with two of the same weapon aren't twin-linked correct? Just making sure as I just got one for about 10 dollars hahaha.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Correct. 3 Walkers with 6 Scatter Lasers put out 24 shots instead of 12 twin linked ones for example. Which is SO much better...


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## whiplash308 (Jan 14, 2009)

I'll take that as sarcasm? Haha, but thanks Sethis. Go go Starcannons.


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## Cocakoala (Apr 27, 2009)

I don't see how that could be sarcasm as its correct. 24 shots at BS3 will have more hitting then 12 TL BS3 shots. And Guide can help the non twin linked ones.


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

They are irritating in the extreme. 

As a tau player eldar regularly give me awful problems and the prism is a factor, not as big as dark reevers but still a factor. With a farseer fortune and guide its just such a pain to get off the board and 2 of them can really cut your suits in half and piss your tanks off no end.

Plus its an absolutely gorgeous model.


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## whiplash308 (Jan 14, 2009)

Cocakoala said:


> I don't see how that could be sarcasm as its correct. 24 shots at BS3 will have more hitting then 12 TL BS3 shots. And Guide can help the non twin linked ones.


I meant the "Which is SO much better..." part, it just seemed sarcastic.


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

Well I run absurdity in my mech list:

3 Prisms.



Before you go off on me, think of it like this: Quantity and Mobility.

Eldar, while also high quality, can pour out an imense amount of firepower in one turn. Combine this with the fact that you can literally always be moving and shooting, and quality becomes less of a factor. Plus 3 str 5 ap 4 large blast templates are devestating to really anything.

I use Prisms as fire support and to snipe high-priority targets. Hide 1 in each corner, the third in the middle behind a building and jump it out when you wanna shoot something. Usually my Prisms work more as suppressors, but there have been times when a st 9 ap 2 blast has knocked out a LRC or LRR. Otherwise just sit back behind cover and you can wreak havoc on your opponents mobility with 3 Prisms.


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## Arkanor (Jan 1, 2010)

Prisms get used because the Prism is a good tank.

Pretty much straight up by linking them (250pts if you spirit stone the FPs, which I usually do so if they're stunned they can at least pull a cover save for next turn), you get a railgun shot.

1/3 chance shot hits directly. 41% chance of rolling a 6 or under if you don't hit direct (which will usually stay on target for most large vehicles). Right there that's about a 75% chance of hitting with an S10AP1 shot.

Then you get twin linked, 75% chance to hit again if you missed the first time. Theoretically this should give you almost a 94% chance to hit. (.75+.25*.75~=0.9375). I'm fairly sure these numbers are right, check them yourself though.

Also, Fire Prism is very versatile, you get two S5AP4 large blasts (while moving 12"), two lascannons at high accuracy, the railgun at extreme accuracy, or the marine melting S6 AP3 large blast). If the weapon dies you can always slam it into something at warp speed and hope for a kill.


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## CardShark (Dec 20, 2010)

i personally love running two fire prisms and 1 nightspinner to make things interesting


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## shadowzarch (Mar 16, 2010)

Ive become a huge fan of the FP with stones and holofields, sure it rings in at 160, but once your gun goes (which it will) you have an amazing ramming tank that just keeps moving, ramming, blocking every turn and forces the enemy to deal with a now worthless tank that takes alot to bring down.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Can't Wave Serpents have TL Bright Lances? If so, I'd just rely on 6 of them for most of my AT, and go with the Scatter Walkers for the rest. Although this is coming from someone who doesn't have the 'dex.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

TL Bright Lances are very pricey though, and not massively better than EML's, worse in some cases. Fire Prisms are still good, yeah their not so great against some armies and they'll blowup but hey I never get any kind of emotional attachment to my units.


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## Arkanor (Jan 1, 2010)

A wave serpent with lances is more expensive than a Fire Prism (though it doesn't take a slot and can transport).

The Brightlance is also worse than the Lascannon in all but TWO cases (and still has less range). Shooting the FRONT of a Leman Russ, or shooting a Land Raider.

Fire Prism also lets you pen things like Blessed Hull Land Raider and Monolith, aside from the wraith weapons and singing spears we don't have anything else that can do that.


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## Big Bad Willy P (Jan 8, 2010)

Correct me if im wrong but why not take 2no vipers?

Im going off the wall here but they can move really fast have not bad Armour and can ram larger more devastating tanks? 

I agree the viper is not going to come out on top, but on turn one would you trade a land raider for a viper?


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## Jack Mac (Apr 29, 2009)

They're not tanks; they can't tank shock; ramming is a form of tank shock.


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## farseer22 (May 23, 2011)

Big Bad Willy P said:


> Correct me if im wrong but why not take 2no vipers?
> 
> Im going off the wall here but they can move really fast have not bad Armour and can ram larger more devastating tanks?
> 
> I agree the viper is not going to come out on top, but on turn one would you trade a land raider for a viper?


They have terrible armour. 10's all around and they're open topped. I don't think even a squad of 3 of these would be more than annoying to most armies.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Jack Mac said:


> They're not tanks; they can't tank shock; ramming is a form of tank shock.


With the exception of items that give special rules (shock prow for DE), Jack is right.


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## Squeeking up on people (Jul 24, 2010)

I think, for me at least, the biggest factor is price. When a kitted out falcon can run you 175-190 points it's nice to have something much cheaper. Plus the model is awesome, so sleek


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