# Gripes about Chaos



## totally_original_name (Jul 6, 2010)

I'm kinda miffed about how underpowered Chaos is becoming. :ireful2:

Back when they first came out, they were comparable to their bretheren Space Marines in terms of utility and and ability. Now, with a new SM codex, plus new Space Wolves and Blood Angels, and now a new Grey Knights Codex, it seems Chaos is fighting an uphill battle to stay relevant. 

I mean, Space Marines get all kinds of new gear. New Land Raiders, new Dreadnaught types, new ammo, etc. Obviously the servants of the Machine God are busy. But one of Chaos' primary things is to seek out ancient archeotech that will help to tip the balance of power in their favor. Are you saying that after raiding a particular world or battle barge, or engaging in a Space Marine chapter, that they can't steal, warp and recreate modern Space Marine technology?

Aesthetically, I like the Chaos look. Baroque, old school armor, but it's ridiculous how they seem to be stagnating. Even Space Wolves and Blood Angels have better psychic powers than Chaos-AND WE'RE SERVANTS OF THE VERY STUFF THAT PSYKERS USE! 

I hope that, should Legion-specific Codexes come out, that they make some heavy upgrades to the Chaos powers. It's not going to be long before a Space Marine Captain will be able to dominate Abbadon if this keeps up.


I feel better. :suicide:


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Chaos whining thread count: 1337

If you don't like the chaos codex use a different one we have daemon princes I had one single handedly take out 1000 points of tau.


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

They definitely should make legion codexes. But for some reason I think it maybe a step too big for GW.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

aboytervigon said:


> Chaos whining thread count: 1337


Lol Leet speak=1337

I would recommend what I always do and that is shelve your army till a new more broken dex is released (Judging by current trends it will be fairly broken).

In order to stop people from getting all anti chaos in this bitch I suggest the following. 

1) Stop gripping lots of old codex suck (Tau, Necrons, most eldar builds, SoB) and these days its a badge of honor to win against the new shit with the old. In other words either start viewing it as a challenge or shelve your army for later.
2) Use a counts as army. I always use shitty counts as when I atually want to use my 3+ dreadnoughts. Hell even in appoc I count them as loyalist dreads.


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

Counts as is what I used to do with my space marine armies. I hated that new piece of shit space marine codex.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

If the Chaos legions had full access to armories like the Loyalists, the latter wouldn't stand a chance against equally geared Traitors and their centuries of experience + Chaos favored mutations + a billion daemons.

Plus a lot of traitor legions who are based around pirating wouldn't have a purpose (Red Corsairs for instance) and then would have no reason not to join the Black Legion.

In regards to them having mostly old power armor, I would think the mutations they get on them offset their ancient designs making them on par with the Loyalists and their newer, more maintained power armor.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

You do relise the CSM dex isn't out. SO why is everyone jumping the gun and saying they suck compared to the SM, of course they do they haven't been updated. It's like saying a m1 garand sucks compared to an AK-47


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

The power-creep in 'dexes raises my ire, yes, but Chaos still have a few tools in their batbelt.

Though I do hope that we get shagnasties from the Forge of Souls in our next codex, though. Bring on da warped stuff!


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Am I one of the few human beings on this Earth who is content with the Chaos codex? Although admittedly I couldn't give less of a crap about Failbaddon and his Black Legion. But crunch wise, the only thing that irks me about it is how incredibly sucky the Defilers are. You're better off with the dreadnoughts!


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> Am I one of the few human beings on this Earth who is content with the Chaos codex? Although admittedly I couldn't give less of a crap about Failbaddon and his Black Legion. But crunch wise, the only thing that irks me about it is how incredibly sucky the Defilers are. You're better off with the dreadnoughts!


Yes yes you are. Because I would like to think that CSM armies should have a lack of crappy throw away units that will actually hurt your armies chances of winning (WE ARN"T ORKS). Seriously I was trying to put a good spin on things, but someone had to bring up the insane notion that the CSM dex is acceptable. Now game wise it is passable and I have had much luck with it, but the book itself is idiotic.

Case in point.
1) Possessed are incredibly overpriced for a unit that may end up just moving a tad further or gaining FC (Run the numbers a = number of bog standard CSM's for the same points will ace them).
2) Spawn Incredibly over priced, and even with gift they will hemorrhage a KP as soon as they are deployed)
3) The fluff is sub standard, and primarily focused on one faction in the periphery of the book. Like if the UM dex talked about a 3rd founding chapter for 10 pages.
4) Severe power and cost differential between units. Why the hell would you take raptors or bikes when they are noticeably more costly, and do the job worse then other things in the book or loyalist counterparts.
5)&^%&^%&&
6)&^%&^%&
7)+ more reasons that have come up 1000 times since the last book.

In short the book is fine by old standards, but implying that its acceptable or even good borders on the idiotic.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> If the Chaos legions had full access to armories like the Loyalists, the latter wouldn't stand a chance against equally geared Traitors and their centuries of experience + Chaos favored mutations + a billion daemons.


Which is precisely why we don't get their toys. Basically Chaos players want everything the loyalists have PLUS fancy new daemon engines, super powers and generally epic stuff. You can have one or the other. Currently we have neither which is crappy. I personally hope they make it about the Legions and give us the daemon stuff and epic marines, make us different from spiky marines.



TRU3 CHAOS said:


> They definitely should make legion codexes. But for some reason I think it maybe a step too big for GW.


The absolute last thing GW should do is make legion codexes. They already fall years behind with codexes they really don't need to add more.

What they should do is put some serious thought into the codex and set it up so you can represent any legion you want. Screw the renegades, they can use C:SM for all I care.



totally_original_name said:


> I mean, Space Marines get all kinds of new gear. New Land Raiders, new Dreadnaught types, new ammo, etc. Obviously the servants of the Machine God are busy. But one of Chaos' primary things is to seek out ancient archeotech that will help to tip the balance of power in their favor. Are you saying that after raiding a particular world or battle barge, or engaging in a Space Marine chapter, that they can't steal, warp and recreate modern Space Marine technology?


Just think about it this way. Every new marine dex gets all the toys introduced in the last one plus their own. At the rate they're going by the time GW gets around to C:CSM it's gonna be a monster of a dex. The longer you wait, the better the payoff. Have I mentioned my first army was DE?


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Or they could just end up taking units away like last edd.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Last edition was a product of a design philosophy that didn't stick. Personally I liked the minimalist style but clearly GW feels more is better so that's what we'll be seeing in future dexs.


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## VX485 (Feb 17, 2011)

I remember reading in WD, cannot remember which one specifically. That they didnt like the idea of removing models form new codex's. Becaue now they have just made a unit/model obsolete and that is not good for the hobbyist (ironic huh?).


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

It sucks when your codex is the lab rat for a design change, but it happens.

Mind you if Jervis's design style stuck it would have been a damned good codex, but what really made it suck was the fact the design style didn't stick making the discrepancy between codex's, make CSM's look like damn necrons for all the flavor they had compared to new stuff.

Kinda makes Jervis the fall man for the failed switch, but I will be damned if I ever personally say I feel sorry for him (Kinda borrowing his own stubborn idiocy)


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> In short the book is fine by old standards, but implying that its acceptable or even good borders on the idiotic.


Fair enough- I'm really just a small time Nurgle player, but what's worked has worked in my force. Admittedly a rather simple force, but I have fun with it.

Although I have to agree with the blatant idiocy of the Spawns. The Power/cost differences are nothing new, though. I got that crap in the Tau codex (cough vespids) too so in my personal little world it almost seems dare i say normal. 

Plus, it's got nothing on the Necron codex in terms of "ABSOLUTELY BROKEN".


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## totally_original_name (Jul 6, 2010)

Im not saying that we should get all the same stuff as the Loyalist marines plus daemon shit, but you gotta figure that someone in the Eye of Terror is saying 'Hmm, they now have Mook Marines that can punch holes in Land Raiders, Dread's that just keep killing, super fancy drop pods and all kinds of other goodies. Yup, we're pretty boned. Unless we can steal some shit.'

I mean, in all the Chaos fluff books, the legions are usually looking for Loyalist stuff. Gene Seed, STC's, etc. So why can't there be a rule in the CSM codex where we can take a piece of gear or unit (not squadrons) from any Loyalist chapter (IG and SM), and warp it, and have it cost the same as what the Loyalist pay plus like 100pts extra for capture, barter or pacts with daemons to make it Chaos. Or at least come out with some better stuff. The biggest hitter Chaos has right now is a Daemon Prince. Our Termies don't have half the good shit that SM termies do, our tanks suck compared to both IG and SM tanks, are go-to Assaulty unit (Khorne Bezerkers) got nerfed hardcore by Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Hell, even our Raptors are nothing compared to SM assualt squads, or even IG Stormtroopers. 'Oh, we get a melta or two? Maybe a pair of Lightning Claws for our Champion? Awesome. Oh, and a Mark of Khorne that gives us an extra attack that we probably wont ever get to use? You spoil me.'


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I will read your post when you get a profile picture


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Don't forget the Obliterators that can't carry bolters of any caliber.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

totally_original_name said:


> So why can't there be a rule in the CSM codex where we can take a piece of gear or unit (not squadrons) from any Loyalist chapter (IG and SM), and warp it, and have it cost the same as what the Loyalist pay plus like 100pts extra for capture, barter or pacts with daemons to make it Chaos.


Or they could just give us a new unit that preforms a similar function. There is no reason we should have to 'steal' anything. And further I guarantee you that if they implemented the rule you just suggested every C:CSM player would whine "why do we have to pay 100pts (or Xpts) more to get loyalist stuff? It's so unfair..."



> The biggest hitter Chaos has right now is a Daemon Prince.


What's wrong with that? Daemon Princes have always been our heaviest hitters (and well they should be) seeing as they are immortal champions of the Dark Gods. 



> Our Termies don't have half the good shit that SM termies do,


Such as? Two guns and TH&SS are the only difference I see. In return we get cheaper termies, the option to strike at I value, a gun the loyalists don't have and Icons. Seems pretty fair to me.



> our tanks suck compared to both IG and SM tanks,


Aside from the new marine tanks what benefits do their tanks have over ours? And the IG is supposed to have the best tanks, that's half of their appeal.



> are go-to Assaulty unit (Khorne Bezerkers) got nerfed hardcore by Blood Angels and Space Wolves.


They didn't get nerfed. Nothing in their stats changed. The competition got tougher is all. So either man up and show them why Khorne is the boss, or go play Blood Angels like the sparkly disgrace you are. :wink:


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## Epidemius (Nov 15, 2010)

I feel like the CSM codex isn't chaos enough. Where are all the creepy monsters? daemon engines? cultists? no, you don't get anything fun like that; and the only daemon engine you get is a defiler. Fluff is crap and only focuses on the freaking black legion. i think its a relatively boring codex. However, in game terms, I believe it to be a fairly passable codex.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

This being the fluf section, wouldn't it be a better idea, rather than rehashing the same complaints that we've heard for years, to have a bit of a think of what stuff might be a good fit for a new 'dex?
Between this 'dex, which has no benefits, but no punishments, for going with a particular theme, to the last one that basically had the IWs conquering the real world single-handed, there has to be a cool, fluffy mid-point where the spikey dudes can claim their very own space.
You can go as obvious as Cult Troops proper for Termies as well as PA, interesting Cult Daemon engines and 'normal' Daemon engines. Maybe some tech that is GC/HH-era and lost to the rest of the Human-galaxy, maybe upgrades that show the sticky-mechandrites of the DarkMech. You know, stuff that gets us deeper into the 40k-'verse?
Personally, I'm looking forward to what they do to the characters. I would imagine the old die-hards of Abaddon et al, will be there, but what will happen to their rules and fluff? Will we see an increase in the number of characters? Will we see new 'types' of character and what could they do that the ones we have now don't?

GFP


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

I've always loved the way chaos is seen as some dark cancer within the imperium, an ustoppible tide of evil ready to break out and consume us all...

That isn't really portrayed in the codex.



> I feel like the CSM codex isn't chaos enough. Where are all the creepy monsters? daemon engines? cultists? no, you don't get anything fun like that; and the only daemon engine you get is a defiler. Fluff is crap and only focuses on the freaking black legion. i think its a relatively boring codex. However, in game terms, I believe it to be a fairly passable codex.


you can screw the cultist as far as I'm concerned, but yet we need more creepy monsters and daemon engines! I would also like to see some unholy/daemonic gifts, I think they had those in 3rd ed and they sounded cool! I mean stuff like mutations, unholy relics, tainted armour and some other wierd stuff!


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

All they need to do is return the flavour which was torn from the dex' for "simplicity sake" we all remember the 3.5 with smiles (dread/defiler with tzeentch flame upgrade, IW HS choices, infiltrating plague marines etc) 

So cultists should return, god specific daemons should return, deathclaws should be in, god specific armies should be in, marks should be a mark not a wavy flag.

I don't think they should go over the top on monsters though, most daemon engines should be apocalypse units as they are now. I don't think they should be trying to kill themselves, daemon weopons shouldn't rebell to cause damage but stop you attacking dreadnoughts should't blow up your own troops, 

But how many times have we all said this sort of stuff? Alot would be happy with codex legions but its unlikely to happen, at the moment we just have to use our imagination to flavour our rather vanilla army choices


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

The problem I see when people play CSM is the lack of imigination. The codex I will agree is quite bland has lost much of the flavor past codexes had. But this book still stands quite tall on the game. In order to use the army well now you have to really consider what your gonna field. Regardless of whats in the book for anything SM wise whether it be tanks, assaulty troops, or even daemon engines the standard troops of the army are still the main strength of the army out there. We still have some decents options as far as troops go and usinng HQs we still have some good builds fro DPs and Lords. But the problem I see as far as things go is no one is willing to look beyond the norm which lash princes and CSM with glory bla bla bla. Daemon weapons may be random as ever but can be used with effectivness. But then again you maybe able lose you Lord over a blundering daemon weapon but loyalist still have to pay when the fire plasma weapons. Defilers hey may not have great and wonderful armour but the still shoot across the entire board and can lay down enuff pie plates tomake and horde army unhappy. Does anyone ever consider using mounts on there lord such as the mount of slaanesh this can help make a lord a CC beast aginst certain armies or how about a mount of khorne now that can be nasty. Use the nilla daemons for christ sake take an ass load of em and just start sproutin them like wild fire. Holy crap I just wrote my whole list and I still got left over points put not much. Screw Im gonna throw a few spawns just to get a few laughs and confuse my opponent. Finally Oblits! How can one argue holy hell a 3 man unit that has more fire power than a titan(yes im elaborating a bit.). Hey that damn land raider is still shootin up my rhinos well go go gaget las cannons. 

Look I know this was a bit a long lil rant but my point is hey the army could use a new dex one day but it still has the capability to be nasty and mean as ever you just gotta start thinkin outside the box a lil bit.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

This thread shouldn`t be in fluff, I`ve seen FA fluff related posts barring GFP.




LukeValantine said:


> Case in point.
> 1) Possessed are incredibly overpriced for a unit that may end up just moving a tad further or gaining FC (Run the numbers a = number of bog standard CSM's for the same points will ace them).
> Possessed can be devastating. Use them in concert with another strong unit and force your opponent to split fire or be hit hard. Any powers rolled should be viewed as bonuses, not weaknesses.
> 
> ...


Nonsense. If I can beat SW with necrons, a competitive CSM list is not out of the question.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

the only things im a bit "upset" about the CSM dex are quite small in the long run

1) no good Fast attack choices.

2) my noise marines are not worth 25 points to be an I5 fearless heavy 3/assault 2 boltgun marine.

3) terrible range of psychic powers. our best range is 24" while most are 6", or have terrible rule wordings (Warp time)

Edit:

4) defilers need av13 - the big spider dreadnought is too weak.

5) no icons - marks required.

6) make the LR troop carrying size the same as the loyalists.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Nonsense. If I can beat SW with necrons, a competitive CSM list is not out of the question.


Damn it serpion you are playing right into the imperiums hands by trolling me, don't your see the loyalists what necron players, and CSM player to fight each other in order to stop us from uniting in a never ending tide of rage that will make GW headquarters burst into flames before our never ending crusade. 

Or have the GK's mind wiped you with their nonsensical fluff to. Oh poor serpion I know him well horus I know him well....


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Sounds like the OP wants CSM to be the single strongest faction "just cause." 

There is actually a good fluffy reason why CSM don't have access to some of the newer tech that their SM brothers have, CSM don't have access to the AdMech and the vast resources of the Imperium. Even if they did steal a few examples of Loyalist only tech (TH/SS, Land Speeders, Thunderfire Cannons, ect.) they don't have the resources to maintain them.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I don't want the new stuff, but some of the funky old shit would be nice. We will show these wipper snapper marines how we did it back in the HH.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Wusword77 said:


> Sounds like the OP wants CSM to be the single strongest faction "just cause."
> 
> There is actually a good fluffy reason why CSM don't have access to some of the newer tech that their SM brothers have, CSM don't have access to the AdMech and the vast resources of the Imperium. Even if they did steal a few examples of Loyalist only tech (TH/SS, Land Speeders, Thunderfire Cannons, ect.) they don't have the resources to maintain them.


Except that they do, or are you ignoring the fact that there are daemon forgeworlds in the eye of terror, and half of the mechanicum sided with horus?

Funny that the current 'dex gushes about the "renegades" that did not have the chaos equipment when they left the emperor's service, are you saying that they have the resources to build a pattern of equipment different than what they were using before serving chaos, but not to maintain the equipment they are familiar with? If they do not have the resources to maintain their familiar equipment, they certainly do not have the resources to develop new equipment and train with it. You can't argue it both ways, either they have the resources to maintain their equipment, or they do not. I


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## totally_original_name (Jul 6, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> I don't want the new stuff, but some of the funky old shit would be nice. We will show these wipper snapper marines how we did it back in the HH.


This exactly. Im not wanting CSM to be the single most powerful army out there, but they're nowhere near as viable as they should be. Despite the fact that we do have Chaos Forge Worlds in the Eye of Terror and everywhere else, at the very least if we cant have some stolen Loyalist goods then at least give us forgotten, long lost archeotech that functions similar to Loyalist stuff. Hell, even in the fluff there's whole chapters of Space Marines that turn wholesale to Chaos. Are you saying they leave their shit behind in the process? 

"Hey guys, we're Chaos now and junk, so leave the Redeemer pattern Land Raider behind, we got, like, Daemons and shit. Oh, and the Thunder Hammers. Matter of fact, drop all the Artificer Armor, too. Yeah, Doesn't fir with the whole 'chaosy' feel, you know? Plus it'll probably piss off one of our new Gods now, and I dont want a penis morphing out of my forehead."

To add to what I want to see in the new 'Dex, I think it would be fun (and fluffy) if we did get Cultists back, but they were as weak as Guardsmen and couldn't take any wargear except a Lasrifle, and every army of point value 1000 or higher had to take at least ONE unit of Cultists, but the pro's would be that they counted as a scoring unit AND we could shoot through them, even in close combat. And I do think some original 'Long Lost' tech should be added to the Armory. Nothing super over powered, but enough that playing Chaos is easily competetive AND fun/fluffy.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Rather than seeing recycled Loyalist junk, which I could frankly care little to nothing about, I'd like to see more *Chaos*. Why bother with a few Plasma Cannons when you can stick a fucking daemon in a machine and throw it at the enemy? More choices similar to the Defiler (fluff-wise, but with different roles) would be awesome. Of course, bring back the gifts and all that, but this is what I'd really like to see with the new book.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

GW will never get chaos right because they are to PC.


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## darknightdrako (Mar 26, 2010)

Before my knowledge of the 3.5 dex, when I first pick up the 4th ed C:CSM (about more than a year ago) things that I was hoping to see was:
- Greater/Lesser Deamons of the 4 Gods not the generic ones with no options of marks at all. 

Then after reading it further I thought; Why doesn't MoK give FC or MoN give FnP to the Chaos Lord?

I also realized that there wasnt an attack bike. Its just hard to believe that CSM and their tech priests aren't smart enough to attach a seat compartment next to the bike and mount the seat compartment with a Heavy Weapon. 

Also in relation for chaos tech, for over ten thousand years I would have thought that at least one chaos adeptus would have been inovated enough to figured out how to mass produce/modify/create new weaponry without STC.

Looks at the Land Raider Achilles

Adept: Oh look we have found the STC for the Land Raider Achilles!
*Traitor Adept takes a look*
Traitor Adept: Oh them Iron Warrior factions have made that variant millenias ago.... too bad they only made 1 due to limited resources.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

darknightdrako said:


> Before my knowledge of the 3.5 dex, when I first pick up the 4th ed C:CSM (about more than a year ago) things that I was hoping to see was:
> - Greater/Lesser Deamons of the 4 Gods not the generic ones with no options of marks at all.
> 
> Then after reading it further I thought; Why doesn't MoK give FC or MoN give FnP to the Chaos Lord?
> ...


On a related topic I always though MoS should do more then +I after all in 90% of instances such a bonus are completely useless.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Wait, wait. Back the fuck up. People are... _unsatisfied_... with the Chaos Space Marine Codex?

:shok:

I refuse to believe it. Maybe someone should post the 3585th thread about it.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Wait, wait. Back the fuck up. People are... _unsatisfied_... with the Chaos Space Marine Codex?
> 
> :shok:
> 
> I refuse to believe it. Maybe someone should post the 3585th thread about it.


This is something I've never heard before as well. I've only ever heard good things about the Chaos Space Marine Codex. Maybe I should start a thread, Which is more competitive, Chaos Space Marines or Orks?


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I say kroot are the most competitive.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> I say kroot are the most competitive.


Define Competitive.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I define it as being opposite to its true meaning in most English dictionaries of course... it is opposite day after all.


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

totally_original_name said:


> This exactly. Im not wanting CSM to be the single most powerful army out there, but they're nowhere near as viable as they should be. Despite the fact that we do have Chaos Forge Worlds in the Eye of Terror and everywhere else, at the very least if we cant have some stolen Loyalist goods then at least give us forgotten, long lost archeotech that functions similar to Loyalist stuff. Hell, even in the fluff there's whole chapters of Space Marines that turn wholesale to Chaos. Are you saying they leave their shit behind in the process?
> 
> "Hey guys, we're Chaos now and junk, so leave the Redeemer pattern Land Raider behind, we got, like, Daemons and shit. Oh, and the Thunder Hammers. Matter of fact, drop all the Artificer Armor, too. Yeah, Doesn't fir with the whole 'chaosy' feel, you know? Plus it'll probably piss off one of our new Gods now, and I dont want a penis morphing out of my forehead."
> 
> To add to what I want to see in the new 'Dex, I think it would be fun (and fluffy) if we did get Cultists back, but they were as weak as Guardsmen and couldn't take any wargear except a Lasrifle, and every army of point value 1000 or higher had to take at least ONE unit of Cultists, but the pro's would be that they counted as a scoring unit AND we could shoot through them, even in close combat. And I do think some original 'Long Lost' tech should be added to the Armory. Nothing super over powered, but enough that playing Chaos is easily competetive AND fun/fluffy.


This.

As i stated on another similar thread a while back, it seems the first thing Huron did upon his dark resurrection was turn round to what was left of his chapter and say 'right, melt down all the assault cannons, multimeltas, land speeders and junk, cos i want some spikes for my armour'. To which his marines said 'Herp da Derp' and went about their retarded business.

In the case of the Legions, the codex doesn't exactly portray the centuries of experience that the original members have. Another member of this forum (apologies, i forget who) stated that not all legionnaires are ancient, some are more recent. To which i say fair enough, but it appears that membership of the Chaos Legions is now granted by the ability to hold a boltgun the wrong way around and need to be reminded of the correct words; "Blood for the... Uh... Sponge Bob... Right?"


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Daemons are not coming back; why would they? They have their own book now and GW have left behind the idea of an army requiring multiple books to play. Besides, the CSM Daemons have one huge benefit over their cousins- they can assault after Deepstriking. I know my Daemons would love to do that.
I really feel that we'll see more of the Daemonengine and bound weapon-Daemons at a squad-level. More Warp-weapons for the Lords and Sorcerers, better Psychic powers- the usual stuff as Codicies attempt to give us more to work with and have fun with. When it comes to Raptors and Bikers, I wouldn't expect anything much different to their Loyalist counterparts in their basic form. Rather, it would be Marks and weapon options, if anything, that's going to set them apart; not necessarily better, just different.
All of this is just my supposition, lest the vagaries of t'internet seize upon them as actual rumours.

GFP


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> Damn it serpion you are playing right into the imperiums hands by trolling me, don't your see the loyalists what necron players, and CSM player to fight each other in order to stop us from uniting in a never ending tide of rage that will make GW headquarters burst into flames before our never ending crusade.
> 
> Or have the GK's mind wiped you with their nonsensical fluff to. Oh poor serpion I know him well horus I know him well....


Me trolling you? Has hell frozen over already? :crazy:


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Me trolling you? Has hell frozen over already? :crazy:


Proabably I have been to busy deliberatly trying to confuse peaple, and side track threads to notice, by the way that is one fine hat your wearing Serpion


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## totally_original_name (Jul 6, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> Which is more competitive, Chaos Space Marines or Orks?


As a player who plays both Chaos and Orks, I can say from experience that I've won more tournaments with Orks than with Chaos. Sure, when the Chaos Dex first came out, I had a slight advantage because it was a more recent Dex, but over time I started to be unable to counter a lot of shit that was being thrown my way. Squadron of Vendettas with 3 twin-linked Lascannon shots apiece? Say goodbye to any Tanks I may have. Power Armored Marines with Counter-Attack, Furious Charge and about 10 Power Weapons? Say 'Hi' to Khorne for me, Berzerkers. Nowadays, I'm lucky if I can eke out a victory over Eldar or Tau 

Since I started playing Orks, not only has the game been fun again, but I've been able to go toe-to-toe with all manner of power builds from different races and have far more success with them than Chaos. The things in the Ork Armory, in my opinion, are more balanced than any other Codex out right now, walking a fine line between fluff-like fragility and super-powered cheesyness.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Wait, wait. Back the fuck up. People are... _unsatisfied_... with the Chaos Space Marine Codex?
> 
> :shok:
> 
> I refuse to believe it. Maybe someone should post the 3585th thread about it.


It's almost like many people have this same weird, unfounded opinion that maybe, just _maybe_ people don't appreciate the fine writing and brilliant craftsmanship that went into such a codex.

It's fascinating. Really it is the only codex that I can build an army for and know the itemized cost of everything in it in under fifty seconds. I only wish they'd make it more simple, these _marks_ and _icons_ only slow my listbuilding down. Do I want tzeentch terminators or nurgle? Do I want my lord with a weapon that causes ID or one where he can swing 2d6 times and fail 1/3 of the time. It's SO CONFUSING.

Next codex I hope they drop that, and the cult troops, they are too confusing. "Upgrade a Khorne Berzerker to a Skull Champion" What? Who is this Skull champion fellow? Why doesn't he come along for free in the basic squad like all the other marine dexes? Ugh it's incredibly confusing and needs way more streamlining!


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Son of mortarion said:


> Except that they do, or are you ignoring the fact that there are daemon forgeworlds in the eye of terror, and half of the mechanicum sided with horus?
> 
> Funny that the current 'dex gushes about the "renegades" that did not have the chaos equipment when they left the emperor's service, are you saying that they have the resources to build a pattern of equipment different than what they were using before serving chaos, but not to maintain the equipment they are familiar with? If they do not have the resources to maintain their familiar equipment, they certainly do not have the resources to develop new equipment and train with it. You can't argue it both ways, either they have the resources to maintain their equipment, or they do not. I


Deamon Forgeworlds that were built after the Heresy by members of the Admech would be designed to produce equipment from the Horus Heresy and not newer equipment. This is why renegade CSM canhave older pattern equipment, because that's what the Forgeworlds produce.

What happens with the renegades equipment is they can maintain their gear from the Imperium for a while but it will eventually become unrepairable. The Deamonforge worlds don't have the SCTs to produce that same equipment so they can't replace them. Maintain the equipment? Sure but it's hard to "maintain" a Land Raider if it's blown to pieces or a flamestorm cannon that's destroyed.

Now I'm not saying that no CSM couldn't at any point use a TH/SS combo, or have a squad of Land Speeders, or use a thunderfire Cannon to defend their base. I'm saying they wouldn't be available to the whole of a CSM force, as there wouldn't be enough to go around.

It's the same reason that CSM have Dreadclaws as opposed to Drop Pods. Lack of the STC and other components means they can't be built and used.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

I guess in the 41st M no one has ever heard of reverse engineering


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## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

and another chaos b1tching thread is started. I'm a chaos player and i don't care. I have fun with my army.


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## Dakingofchaos (Sep 29, 2009)

If people hate the csm codex so much then why play it? if you want the shiny dreads and raiders then go play loyalists :L 

to say it sucks is a lie, if you cant win with them then its because your not using them right :L 

i wish these chaos rants would stop, the dex isnt that bad eh


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

We all have fun with our armies. Some just more so then others.

Also jaws are you sure your a real CSM player, I mean you lack the typical ruminations about a bygone age of wonders, and a impulse need to tell younger player how it was back in the day....my god we have become the old peoples army of 40k, quickly get that matt ward idiot to right the codex so we can recapture the idiocy of youth!

Also the codex is fine, after all its been 3+ years since it came out, so do you really expect it to stay fresh and relevant that long? After all look at all the other old armies, notice how half of them suck on a level CSM's dare not even enter!


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## turel2 (Mar 2, 2009)

All the new Codexes are more powerful than the older ones.

Just got to wait for a new Codex: Chaos.
Its an endless cycle.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Yep it sucks to be on the bottom of the cycle, mainly do to how it exasperates the weaknesses of the codex, but like all the other good necron/GK/SoB/DE player we should learn to skulk in the shadows till our time arises again.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I got up to page six of people Bitching (which I fall under) and people trying to defend our crappy Dex. 

First off let me say yes we still have options, but competivly those options are damn near always have DP, Oblits, and your Favorite Troop type. Ironicly our basic Troops are the best in any dex IMO. Gets boring real fast. Also the Selving Idea is stupid since fielding a Plastic army of 200 pts cost as much as a decent built PC. There is NO justification for that shit. So im stuck with what I have and can add every few years.

Our Dex is feeling its age badly. My last game had 8 Beserkers charge 10 DE Wyches. On the CHARGE my Beserkers died on my next turn with 2 Wyches left. They hit first, have FNP (Combat Drugs), wound on 4s, Hydra Gauntlets, and 4+ Inv. My Beserkers had a Rhino and PF Champ. His DE were Cheaper to boot!!! WTF. Then My Beserkers charge a 6 man Death Company with Chappy. They died again and took 2 DC with them. They are my BEST CC units and im rolling good and they drop like flies to a cheaper sqaud? Retarded.

Another thing that suks is what makes CSMs special and different is the use of Daemons..... which we dont have anymore. I read "u dont need loyaltist equivlants" and thats true, but we dont have Daemons or Daemonic anything anymore. So fuck us right?

I think I sum it up.2 years ago I was doing well with my CSMs and now I find myself getting stomped time and again by the newer dexes like SWs, BAs, IG, and DE. Nids aint that great, GKs are ehhhh, and Daemons is a joke. SM and Orks are bearable, Eldar are Bearable. I feel bad for Nec, Tau. and SoB. I just hope they take C:CSM 3.5 and touch it up for 5th rules.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> I got up to page six of people Bitching (which I fall under) and people trying to defend our crappy Dex.
> 
> First off let me say yes we still have options, but competivly those options are damn near always have DP, Oblits, and your Favorite Troop type. Ironicly our basic Troops are the best in any dex IMO. Gets boring real fast. Also the Selving Idea is stupid since fielding a Plastic army of 200 pts cost as much as a decent built PC. There is NO justification for that shit. So im stuck with what I have and can add every few years.
> 
> ...


Ahh you stopped ready before my pointless reply...


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> I got up to page six of people Bitching (which I fall under) and people trying to defend our crappy Dex.
> 
> First off let me say yes we still have options, but competivly those options are damn near always have DP, Oblits, and your Favorite Troop type. Ironicly our basic Troops are the best in any dex IMO. Gets boring real fast. Also the Selving Idea is stupid since fielding a Plastic army of 200 pts cost as much as a decent built PC. There is NO justification for that shit. So im stuck with what I have and can add every few years.
> 
> ...


Just become a daemon player you know you want to we have cookies, popcikels , and ice scream and don't foget Hot one breasted daemon chicks.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Dakingofchaos said:


> If people hate the csm codex so much then why play it? if you want the shiny dreads and raiders then go play loyalists :L
> 
> to say it sucks is a lie, if you cant win with them then its because your not using them right :L
> 
> i wish these chaos rants would stop, the dex isnt that bad eh


Allow me to address each of your points.

1) If people are unsatisfied with their Codex that they paid money for they should just go spend more money on another Codex. Am I understanding this correctly?

2) No, it does suck, to say otherwise isn't a lie, but it isn't smart either.

3) People complain a lot on the internet, but in this case their complaints are founded. The Chaos Marine Codex is plain, limited in good choices and boring for the majority of players.



TheSpore said:


> Just become a daemon player you know you want to we have cookies, popcikels , and ice scream and don't foget Hot one breasted daemon chicks.


No, don't play Daemons right now, it's a really bad idea (not because of the Grey Knight Codex, just in general).


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Dear lord not another topic on the chaos codex. The whining really gets me because it is an acceptable codex. You are better off than Tau, Witchhunters, Necrons and Eldar and yet between all those factions I do not see anywhere near as much whining. 

In the chaos codex there are plenty of perks that are great like the fact every basic trooper has a bolt pistol, close combat weapon and a boltgun. As well as frag and krak grenades. You also get more than one viable troops unit which is more than can be said for other codexes. Plus you get cheaper lightning claws! They are awesome weapons to have in combat!

In short quit bitching and wait in line like everyone else and if they release a codex like the second 3rd ed one then try not to abuse it as much.


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## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Our Dex is feeling its age badly. My last game had 8 Beserkers charge 10 DE Wyches. On the CHARGE my Beserkers died on my next turn with 2 Wyches left. They hit first, have FNP (Combat Drugs), wound on 4s, Hydra Gauntlets, and 4+ Inv. My Beserkers had a Rhino and PF Champ. His DE were Cheaper to boot!!! WTF. Then My Beserkers charge a 6 man Death Company with Chappy. They died again and took 2 DC with them. They are my BEST CC units and im rolling good and they drop like flies to a cheaper sqaud? Retarded.
> 
> .


start using it properly then and have a look at your opponent before you blindly charge. are bezerkers going to fair well against I6? no. how about 4++ in melee? no. fnp? no.

all that is required is a little more thinking and strategy in play. if it has a 4++melee then shoot it. 

i looked through the tau codex the other day and thought hmmm, Chaos has a wider variety of troops with far more wys in which can be fielded then the entire tau codex. looking at other armies i saw even more bonuses arise. sure we don't have some of our old variety, but we were released at an awkward time. a good dex none the less


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

I think most people are complaining about how god damned boring a book it is, less so its relative power level compared to other books (though the Chaos Marine Codex is subpar at the highest levels of play).


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## Khazaddum (Apr 2, 2009)

:goodpost:

All it needs is a little bit of spice in the form of daemonic upgrades. 

I personally see no fault with the current dex other than it feels a little light on options.

A few daemonic upgrades here, a couple of daemon engines there, stir in a bit of good quality fluff, mix well and voila!

A perfect recipe for a good dex. 




(note: does not have to be on the same level as the newest codices power wise to be effective )


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## Shag (Jul 12, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> The power-creep in 'dexes raises my ire, yes, but Chaos still have a few tools in their batbelt.
> 
> Though I do hope that we get shagnasties from the Forge of Souls in our next codex, though. Bring on da warped stuff!


Did somebody call?


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

jaws900 said:


> and another chaos b1tching thread is started. I'm a chaos player and i don't care. I have fun with my army.


You also have fun massacring the english language which the moderators don't seem to take an interest in even though it's clearly against the rule of no net-speaking.
Clearly I can't say I join in your enthusiasm for using the chitter speak of a jabberwocky or playing with a codex with all the originality and spark of an eighth movie sequel.

And Khazaddum, I am not paying ninety fucking points for a chaos lord who can't do his fucking job. I don't care if his daemonic gifts are out of the old book verbatim, he's still a butt-ton of points for nothing. NINETY for 5s in all the soft stats and 4s in all the important ones.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I have seen an Imperial Guard list boasting four Leman Russ tanks laid low by a vanilla CSM list.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> I have seen an Imperial Guard list boasting four Leman Russ tanks laid low by a vanilla CSM list.


And I have seen a avatar go down to a single squad of bolter fire, but that doesn't mean anything about the state of the marine codex or the eldar codex.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Of course not. You`re comparing a single unit on unit against my example of two entire 1,750 pt armies both commanded by tournament level veterans of the hobby.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

TheSpore said:


> Just become a daemon player you know you want to we have cookies, popcikels , and ice scream and don't foget Hot one breasted daemon chicks.


HAHAHA, its funny cuase u want to play the Servants instead of the Masters.



Katie Drake said:


> No, don't play Daemons right now, it's a really bad idea (not because of the Grey Knight Codex, just in general).


Dont worry he couldnt pay me to convert to that sad dex. U FAILED AGAIN SPORE. BUUUUT I might play some Daemons if they get a new DEX.



Caliban said:


> start using it properly then and have a look at your opponent before you blindly charge. are bezerkers going to fair well against I6? no. how about 4++ in melee? no. fnp? no.
> 
> all that is required is a little more thinking and strategy in play. if it has a 4++melee then shoot it.


All I got from your post is reinforcing what I sayed. Wyches are Cheaper, and better at the same Points for my Beserkers. You can say "YeaH dont charge them wyches there" unfortunatly thats worse advice and plain dumb since Wyches was his only troop choice, on a 24" moving Raider with Flicker Fields. What that means? It means that in turn 2 he woill destory my rhino (Thank you True Born with Heat Lances and Ravagers with DL up the wazoo) and easily get the charge on me no matter what. So let my Zerkers charge or be charge. Oh I get it now, my Zerkers do one thing good, and you want me to sit there and... shoot..... ? Seriously we go on now about list tailoring but thats not the point. The point that a well made All comers list point for point dont cut it.



Serpion5 said:


> Of course not. You`re comparing a single unit on unit against my example of two entire 1,750 pt armies both commanded by tournament level veterans of the hobby.


Ive also seen Chaos Spawn, LD, Chaos Lord list at 1500 beat a solid Logan Wing. Its called all in the weighted Dice. Again the point here is on average we lose. Overall were terrible.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

But not as terrible as other armies out there. Its just that Chaos players whine and bitch about it the most.


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## Dakingofchaos (Sep 29, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> But not as terrible as other armies out there. Its just that Chaos players whine and bitch about it the most.


He's got his thinking cap on :laugh:


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## uber (Feb 28, 2011)

that we do. it's a little embarassing. chaos has things that we do that pose very big problems for whoever we play.

smurfs are supposed to outshoot us, yet they can never seems to stop me from getting into cc and slaughtering them. nids are supposed to beat me at my game, yet a couple of DP's with good support went through the entire army. and grey knights are supposed to make csm soil their power armor, yet with carefully focused fire and support they got killed to a man.

chaos may not be able to spam high S weapons as well as IG can, but what we can do is make a list that can give anyone trouble. 

i agree it's pretty one dimensional, as the secret to winning is really how you choose to use your prince. he is the maverick that your opponent has to have a plan for. 

bottom line, chaos can win if you know how to use them, and by god they are a hella fun army to use.


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## Lord Rahl (Mar 13, 2010)

uber said:


> that we do. it's a little embarassing. chaos has things that we do that pose very big problems for whoever we play.
> 
> smurfs are supposed to outshoot us, yet they can never seems to stop me from getting into cc and slaughtering them. nids are supposed to beat me at my game, yet a couple of DP's with good support went through the entire army. and grey knights are supposed to make csm soil their power armor, yet with carefully focused fire and support they got killed to a man.
> 
> ...


What he said 2 fold:goodpost:,
I love playing my CSM army and not once have I whined about them being an older dex.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Oh I get it now, my Zerkers do one thing good, and you want me to sit there and... shoot..... ? Seriously we go on now about list tailoring but thats not the point. The point that a well made All comers list point for point dont cut it.


Sorry but if all you have for shooting is zerkers than I'm sorry but your list isn't a well balanced all-comers list. 

C:CSM can be effective and functional. It takes some skill and practice to get it fully functional but that's true of any codex. People complain about limited competitive builds and certain units being overpriced but C:CSM doesn't suffer from these things more than any other codex.

The only problems I have with the codex is unfocused and uninteresting fluff and too heavy a focus on renegades (who are actually just spiky marines). Game-play wise it is still serviceable.



> Ive also seen Chaos Spawn, LD, Chaos Lord list at 1500 beat a solid Logan Wing. Its called all in the weighted Dice. Again the point here is on average we lose. Overall were terrible.


I don't see that at all. My Night Lords (which feature no DP, Oblits or cult marines) win more than they lose and my luck is atrocious. So I'd say that you can make numerous competitive builds out of the codex. It may not be as option packed as previous editions and I can't stand the new fluff focus but it is fully function and competitive.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Stephen_Newman said:


> But not as terrible as other armies out there. Its just that Chaos players whine and bitch about it the most.


I`ve noticed. When was the last timeI bitched about my crappy necron codex? Just now? Yeah, I think that`s about it. 



Lord Rahl said:


> What he said 2 fold:goodpost:,
> I love playing my CSM army and not once have I whined about them being an older dex.


The age isn`t the problem, it`s the lack of variety people are crying about.


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## eyescrossed (Mar 31, 2011)

uber said:


> and by god they are a hella fun army to use


Hahahahaha :rofl:


...



Wait... You're serious? :shok:


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## uber (Feb 28, 2011)

eyescrossed said:


> Hahahahaha :rofl:
> 
> 
> ...
> ...



sure. we have some of the coolest looking models, and i love watching my opponent get nervous because of some of the units i'm fielding. between DP's, defilers, and oblits we have some really visually intimidating units. last game i played some spectators walked over to comment on my models...not the other guy's stuff. chaos models just look the best.

to me that makes them fun....that and winning.


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## eyescrossed (Mar 31, 2011)

uber said:


> sure. we have some of the coolest looking models, and i love watching my opponent get nervous because of some of the units i'm fielding. between DP's, defilers, and oblits we have some really visually intimidating units. last game i played some spectators walked over to comment on my models...not the other guy's stuff. chaos models just look the best.
> 
> to me that makes them fun....that and winning.


I vastly preferred the last Codex but I don't mind the new one... Too much...

The only things I miss are the rules for Cultists and Chaos Lords that were actually useful.


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## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

so we all think that a little more personality to our individual army is needed and things like daemonis upgrades and veteran abilities would help this. Great. So make/find a fandex for friendly games or use the previous edition. competitive builds are easily enough made for tournaments and i cant say many armied have variety there. so we all good now?


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Not to mention chaos can use multiple builds anyways. I have played Eldar for a long time now and it hurts so much that we only have 1 decent HQ and one viable build for 5th edition. And that falls apart when confronted with Long fang heavy armies.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

CSM are a great army still that manages to stand up aginst some of the best. You can write a great list for all day long . but what it all boils down to is if you manage to make use of your army the right way and make good choices on how you ustilize all that the diffrent units can do.

Oblitz being a good example. Most tend to just let them hang back fire. I played games where I advanced them forward and maanged to take out vehicles and DPs alike. I have always loved both the CSM and the Daemon armies.


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

Actually i quite like the CSM 'dex as it is, sometimes older is better.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Karak The Unfaithful said:


> Actually i quite like the CSM 'dex as it is, sometimes older is better.


You my friend are one of the few...

You know I find it kinda funny actually. If GW was to write a new CSM dex tomorrow and release people would still be bitchin about something to do with that dex .


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

That is inevitable with any codex.  

Oh well. Whiners gonna whine. :laugh:


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Yeah just wish there was enuff cheese to go around


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

My main gripe is that it isn't caos.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

gally912 said:


> My main gripe is that it isn't chaos.


It's goofy fucking space pirates that act like the villains out of eighties cartoons. 
Seriously, Abaddon: Next time gadget! Next tiiiime!


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

LordWaffles said:


> It's goofy fucking space pirates that act like the villains out of eighties cartoons.
> Seriously, Abaddon: Next time gadget! Next tiiiime!


You missed the joke waffles


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

People will always whine. Some whines re more justifiable than the others.

Also, I enjoy complaining. Blame it on my my greek/italian ancestry. 

But to be perfectly honest, what gripes me the most (and this is not just about CSM) is the absurd policy of not releasing updates and tweaks to keep old armies at least feasible in the metagame. They -can- do so, as the recent Storm Shield fix for Dark Angels and Black Templars testifies. They just don't.

I mean, it's the internet age, people. Everyone who plays the damn game can and likely has checked the website every week or so. I'll still buy the next Dex even if put out a minor fix now and then adjusting, say, Havok point costs to be more in line with other heavy-weapons units across recent codices.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

gally912 said:


> You missed the joke waffles


You missed the point, Gally. :nono:


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

One dude carrying around the thing that gives your whole squad a special ability is dumb. The fact that none of the survivors pick it up if he dies is even more dumb.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

TheSpore said:


> You my friend are one of the few...
> 
> You know I find it kinda funny actually. If GW was to write a new CSM dex tomorrow and release people would still be bitchin about something to do with that dex .


Sad thing is its true, never seen a new codex get released where someone hasn't bitched or out and out hated it.

I guess the lessen is people are fickle, and will never truly be happy. Chaos players in particular always seem to be the hungriest of the players though, maybe its the fact that the codex seems to promise units of such diversity, and power that no matter what GW does CSM players will never be satiated.

Its kinda like the idea that if you give a starving man a incredible meal of royal proportions he will soon expect nothing less.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

LukeValantine said:


> I guess the lessen is people are fickle, and will never truly be happy. Chaos players in particular always seem to be the hungriest of the players though, maybe its the fact that the codex seems to promise units of such diversity, and power that no matter what GW does CSM players will never be satiated.


People were plenty satiated with the last Codex. While I doubt the next Chaos 'Dex will be quite so diverse, it's a standard to aspire to.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> People were plenty satiated with the last Codex. While I doubt the next Chaos 'Dex will be quite so diverse, it's a standard to aspire to.


I have a feeling that the next chaos book is gonna have a lot of what the fans were wanting just more on a balanced level thats all.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

as long as that standard means that all cult troops are viable (both point & money wise) to play then i believe that they would already beat the current book.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I really hope the next dex lives up to expectations or else the chorus of dissatisfied CSM players will be like a echo in the grand canyon.

Possible things that could go wrong.
1) They make the army overpowered or to complex simply compounding the bitching of none csm players.
2) They over Balance out the codex, and add more diversity at the cost of the specific strengths CSM's are supposed to have over loyalists.
ect

However at this point their is little they could do to affect my own CSM build besides remove the option to take two DP's (Seriously I doubt they will make rhino's cost more or put higher restrictions on special weapons, hence my bog standard schism marines are safe either way.)


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

Personally, I think the next Chaos Space Marine codex will be something to wait for. As long as they move away from the "Marine's with spikes" thing the current codex kind of has

I would also expect to see Preferred Enemy in some form on at least some of the units


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

I think they should go back to the way it was in 3.5 where you would buy the CSm unit and then attach a mark to make them a cult choice.

I wanna see the marks actually reattach the benefits of being a bezerk or plague marine.

It just makes no sense why you have to buy an icon that when is killed suddenly everyone forgot what god they were supporting. Also I agree the pt cost of cult troops is so high that when your done writing the unit up you almost have no room to balance the list because it was all spent two units of troops which even though may be a bit powerful still prove to just as squishy as the average CSM. 

Another thing I hope to see is that even though daemons are now more vanilla like is to at least see them have a few new abilities rather than space marine w/o guns. Mybe allow some options like you can purchase diffrent abilities and to make posessed a much more useful pt effective unit rather than uber expensive guy with a fun ability to play with.

Give me back SKNF. Just because they aren't loyalist they still shouldn't have just forgotten this trait from their training. If anything they should mostly all be fearless. We are talking about a group people that are exposed to the frightning and unusal everday of their lives. 

Finally I wanna see the return of undivided legion specifics.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I second the idea that marks should give cult status, with the following points included.
1 Mark of slaanesh should give a additional bonus over I+1, something like combat drugs (I don't know), and they should also keep the variant points costs if they us this new system, because lets face it some units benefit from certain marks more then others.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> I second the idea that marks should give cult status, with the following points included.
> 1 Mark of slaanesh should give a additional bonus over I+1, something like combat drugs (I don't know), and they should also keep the variant points costs if they us this new system, because lets face it some units benefit from certain marks more then others.


very true like if you give MoK to raptors. This in turn would make them way more effective than they are now or giving the MoN to termies would make them nigh unstoppable. To balance much of it out they could throw in a rul like and army that includes noise marines can't include bezerks or something of that nature. Which not only satisfies the fluff but balances it out aws well.

Also isn't time the dread get put on some crazy pills so they don't go insane at least not as often. It would be nice to be able to field a dread with big gunz without fear of them mowing down your own guys

oh yeah I almost forgot make that defiler thing a A 13. why is it the soul grinder which is essentially the same flippin thing get a 13 but we get a 12.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Still think the old crazed rule was fine really don't know many people that had problems with it.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

well it is in a way its just that i never understood its reason for being there in all. Everytime I didnt use a CC dread it always went nutz and shot something up. or It just went stupid and decided to stand and look at the pretty flowers. Hey whose idea was it anyway to put the flippin para noid scitzo in the big honkin death machine.


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## Anarkitty (Jul 29, 2008)

I have no problem with crazy Dreads, it's fluffy and characterful, and not really that big of a deal. Unless you're really a competitive player, I guess, then it might suck.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

The Chaos Dex isn't all bad, I do pretty well with it and I'm not the greatest of players. Next edition will bring a new Chaos dex with it, probably with some great changes.

However I'm sick of people whining about how shit their army's codex is, so I propose that anyone who does it should suffer negative rep.


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## Izzleydill (Jul 11, 2010)

The last thing we need is another *SM* clone. Some of the units are different and equal, except for the *TH/SS*, which are just broken period, and need to be fixed rather then added to more codexs. As far as vehicles go, *CSM* gets a dompltely different type of walker then anyone else can get with some average customizability. They were never meant to be a vehicle heavy army, but got screwed over by the 5th edition rule set. And there are versions of CSM that are better then the normal SM codex. I prefer the chaos foot soliders with the +1 A in close combat. Lastly about the *SW*, everyone has a gripe with the overpowered codex, not just chaos.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> Still think the old crazed rule was fine really don't know many people that had problems with it.


We had some control over it and it could be used successfully without hamstringing the army. The dreadnought checked for enemies first on his fire frenzy(Awesome) and shot them before going to your units. AND his blood rage meant DOUBLE the number of attacks in close combat, in addition to his quicker movement.
In short he was a unit that could make his points back and you could control.

A lot of you are saying chaos players bitch too much about the codex. I don't give two fucks about the power in the codex, they could make our shit cost double in the next book with the same sorts of statistics. I just want the army to not be perfectly mastered and be able to recall itemized point costs for every upgrade in the better part of two hours. Seriously the book is not exciting, it's incredibly clear cut and has no variety or ambitions. Why would you play an army with zero depth that plays the exact same every game?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

LordWaffles said:


> Why would you play an army with zero depth that plays the exact same every game?


Well the simple minded want to win games too, so Necrons aren't an option, thus Chaos.


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## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=87797

stop whining


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Well the simple minded want to win games too, so Necrons aren't an option, thus Chaos.


Oh Katie, you don't make me vomit blood in a screaming rage.
+rep hahah


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## Doomsdaydan (Jun 17, 2010)

Chaos are not so bad my biggest moan is that they are aimed for close combat and the newer armys trance them in close combat but still they do have advantages in some things like troop choice's, also i realy think chosen need changing up to 4 can change there weps what the hell is that even the older Dark Angels codex gave abilty to fully customize a unit


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## Daemon Child (Apr 12, 2011)

they are completly underpowered they need and they shall know no fear and stubborn for the non fearless units and more units such as the razorback and techmarines and land speeders there scavenges why wouldnt they have them


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## Ghost792 (Jan 6, 2010)

Doomsdaydan said:


> also i realy think chosen need changing up to 4 can change there weps what the hell is that even the older Dark Angels codex gave abilty to fully customize a unit


Chosen can take FIVE special weapons.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Caliban said:


> http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=87797
> 
> stop whining


I would, but I can't hear you over the sound of my three invalidated Chaos armies.


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## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> I would, but I can't hear you over the sound of my three invalidated Chaos armies.


i don't get it?


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Caliban said:


> i don't get it?


Likely stemming from the army concepts from the "3.5" codex whose models and strategies are no longer valid/usable in the 4 codex.

Iron Warriors Heavy Support, Cultist/Alpha Legion, Daemon support, etc etc


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## Shag (Jul 12, 2009)

Daemon Child said:


> they are completly underpowered they need and they shall know no fear and stubborn for the non fearless units and more units such as the razorback and techmarines and land speeders there scavenges why wouldnt they have them


Yeah that is one thing that I have never understood. If someone is not afraid to sell their souls to the darkest pits of well hell, then why would they be afraid later? I mean it's like saying that Bear Grills is afraid of house cats.:scare:


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Shag said:


> Yeah that is one thing that I have never understood. If someone is not afraid to sell their souls to the darkest pits of well hell, then why would they be afraid later? I mean it's like saying that Bear Grills is afraid of house cats.:scare:


Sell your soul for power then have something be able to stand against you and beat you? I bet you'd crap yourself, I know I would.

Quick paths to power lead to warriors that aren't strong enough mentally. They'll crack under pressure because they look for the easy way to become stronger.


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## Shag (Jul 12, 2009)

Quick power? Do you know how much crap these dudes gotta go through for some Daemon elevation!!! Quick paths to power doesn't mean a person is not mentally strong. Also it's not easy.


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