# Vaders 501st fare against Enitre Imperial Fist Chapter?



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

The Whole Chapter (1000) of Imperial Fist lead by there Chapter Master Lord Vladimir Pugh and Captain Lysander. Completed with Preds and Land Raiders.

vs 

The Empires 501st Legion (Little over 8000) led by Darth Vader. Complete with AT-ATs and AT-STs, and Speeder Bikes.

Make it Fare Im thinking Battle Barge and 2 Strike Cruiseres with 6 Destoryers for IF and the Empires 6 Star Destroyers and 2 Frigates for Fleets.

Who do ya think would win here? I did this on Comicvine and no one really knows much about 40K but all know about SWs. LOL So heres to the 40Kers Knowledge.

THIS IS EXPANDED UNIVERSE for SWs.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

The Imperial Fists -- without question. Darth Vader would be smote beneath the weight of his own eniquities, his body cast across the shattered ruins of his army while his dreams are burned to ash by flamer-weapons and the ashes cast across the plains of his tormented soul.

The Emperor will not be denied.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

They 501st would loose. They would loose HORRIBLY and COMPLETELY. The 501st are just men. Exceptional examples of the species and amazingly equipped, but still men. The only issue for the marines would be attached mech, and even that wouldn't stand for long.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Whole issue of posting a vs. thread on a 40K forum....

Yes the Fists would stomp the 501st because they are super-human warriors built and bred for war. They alone count for about 10 Stormtroopers (who are basically guardsmen), and can easily outgun the Star Destroyers with their Battle Barges - don't forget you're talking about a 1st Founding chapter here.

And that's before I even get onto any IF characters vs Vader...


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> Whole issue of posting a vs. thread on a 40K forum....
> 
> Yes the Fists would stomp the 501st because they are super-human warriors built and bred for war. They alone count for about 10 Stormtroopers (who are basically guardsmen), and can easily outgun the Star Destroyers with their Battle Barges - don't forget you're talking about a 1st Founding chapter here.
> 
> And that's before I even get onto any IF characters vs Vader...


It's really early for me, so is this hyperbole? :laugh: 

The battle barges do not outgun a star destroyer. Also, they are much better than your standard guardsman. They would be somewhere between a guardsman and a IG storm trooper, closer to the a guardsman, but yeah.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Just an example of 40K fanboyism that is bound to get more excessive as the thread continues. :wink:


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## Keen4e (Apr 19, 2010)

I don't think there's much sense comparing two lores which have nothing to do with each other. Different weapons and two completely different contexts. 
By the way star wars blasters are plasma technology and do you know what kills marines best? Plasma: Ap2 S7


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I had to post this here cause on the Vine most people disregard 40K fluff as they only played the Dawn of War Games. It was one sided with Vader crushing the Battlebarge via Force! LOL

Seriously tho At-STs and AT-ATs do help. Another thing to note is all the 501st are IG Stormtoopers in training. There the last remants of the Clones from the Clone Wars that Anakin Led against the Serpratist. There the best in the Empire and Galaxy for that matter. 

It shouldnt be compared as SM vs IG Guardsman.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Thing is, Star Wars fluff and "canon" is even more self-contradicting than that of 40k. I mean, for a while there, they had different levels of fluff altogether... for instance, stuff actually by Lucas, versus stuff commissioned by Lucas, versus stuff by third parties with no involvement by Lucas...

By the time you get to the 501st and similar themes, you've taken a lot of detours from what you see in the movies. And what you see in the movies around that timeframe is Stormtroopers who are less "super-soldier" and more "ideological fanatics". They have trouble taking on miniature guerillas using primitive weapons, nevermind actual superhumans. Even if you accept the 501st as the Clone Troopers shown storming the Jedi Temple, you're still not talking about anything that blows my mind. The footage of Order 66 and the subsequent fall of the Temple is little more than 100-1 odds, with 100 Storm/Clone Troopers shooting simultaneously at a single Jedi.

Against an Adeptus Astartes, though?

The weapons of the Stormtroopers, while "plasma" don't have nearly the same effect as plasma weaponry in 40k. The shot Leia suffers from would have at least taken off a limb in 40k, for instance. A Space Marine wouldn't have to spin his lightsaber helplessly until a shot got by and stunned him enough to be shot down. A Space Marine could weather that barrage long enough to close that same distance and start slaughtering his foes up close and personal. And if we're talking about boarding actions? Forget about it. Less than 8-1 odds would mean little to the Space Marines with all that in mind.

Also, it goes without saying that 40k small arms are far more devastating. You can't begin to compare the effects bolters have on human beings or that 40k plasma has on even power-armoured warriors.

Moving on. In the movies, Darth Vader's "psyker" powers amount to telepathy, comparatively minor forms of telekinesis, and energy absorption. His depicted combat prowess (as Darth Vader, not as Anakin) is singularly unimpressive. Librarian powers in 40k obviously vary, but... on average... most Librarians appear to be able to match such powers. Chief Librarians in almost every case are shown as having much more power than that.

I don't know if Imperial Star Destroyers trump 40k starships or not. Size-wize, they're definitely smaller than Strike Cruisers or Battle Barges. In terms of scale of engagement, the movies certainly imply that they need to get much closer than 40k ships (who typically are described as being not even within visual range of their targets... a hundred thousand miles or more away).

Once you get to the Expanded Universe, then, yeah, things change. Starkiller, from the newest SW video games, obviously has powers that would make a mockery of most things 40k. Tellingly, though, the 501st had basically zero to do with that interpetation of Star Wars.

EDIT: so, all else being equal, and going with the stuff we've seen in the movies and in the material the 501st is featured in, I feel comfortable with the idea that the Imperial Fists Chapter, including their entire fleet, Librarius, and the Phalanx, would be able to slaughter the 501st and the fleet shown above.

Cheers,
P.


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## washout77 (May 26, 2012)

IF you really think about it, the 501st is just an example of a glorified IG regiment. In the ground battle, the Imperial Fists would SLAUGHTER the 501st. They are just faster, stronger, and better equipped (the 501st has blasters, but the SM's have fully automatic rocket launchers pretty much). In the space battle it would be a much more even battle. Knowing the size of the different ships, Star Destroyers are smaller and the weapons require closer range. IF the Battle Barges/Strike Cruisers keep them at range, they can win easily.

Overall though, the whole comparison is pretty bad hahahahahahaha. So much stuff that just is weird to compare...


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

If the force was considered a psychic ability then Vader would probably get possessed due to all the hate he has


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## Tranx (Mar 8, 2010)

501st are begging for an IG converted army made up of veterans in carapace armour, Vadar as a commisar and AT-ST sentinels! :grin:


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Why a Commisar when he can be a Primaris Psyker? :wink:


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## Tranx (Mar 8, 2010)

I was debating that but the black and the cape combined with the "Aura of discipline!" swayed it in favour of the commisar for me. Yes he has no powers but damnit the style just fits perfectly . . .


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Things look pretty poor for the stormtroopers.

Here's a link on their armor:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWtrooparmor.html

A quick note on blaster power

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWblaster.html

And a fairly indepth study of the sturdiness of the AT-ST

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWATST.html

The average Imperial Guard regiment would eat the Imperial's best. A Space Marine Chapter would roll over them.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I agree for Strom Troopers. But the current Exapanded Universe (EU) is the 501st are Navy Seals compared to the rest of the legions. Also keep in mind they have AT-AT which are mini titans really.

On the Spcace Battle the IF would auto win with Phalanx... I could easily say that Vaders Super Star Destroyer could match it... anywho there not involved here. Keep in Mind The Star Detroyers have a Host of Tie Fighters, Intecepters, and more importantly Tie Bombers that can wreck at a range. They can also be just as far away as 40K Battleships if ya read the novels and not simply look at the movies.


I think its closer than one might think. The IF probaly have what 4 -6 Land raiders max. In any given Chapter. 4 AT-ATs could cause prolems. You also still have the Heavy Turbo Lasers use by Heavy Troopers.

Its funny on one Website SW Stomps and here 40K Stomps. LOL

I notice in the Vine people read the Novels and Dark Horse Comics of Star Wars but only played the DoW games for 40K. Here people only watch the SW movies as refrence but read and know the Codex Fluff of the 40K universe. Its interesting to say the least.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> I agree for Strom Troopers. But the current Exapanded Universe (EU) is the 501st are Navy Seals compared to the rest of the legions. Also keep in mind they have AT-AT which are mini titans really.


EU is non-canon. Lucas himself has stated it multiple times.

So are we debating SW vs WH40k or Expanded Universe vs WH40k.

They're (in Lucas's words) two separate universes.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Given that the Blood Angels have about 50 Land Raiders i'm sure the Imperial Fists have a couple dozen aswell, the perks of being a First Founding chapter. 

Not to mention all the other vehicles from the armoury; predators, vindicators, land speeders, thunder fire canons, whirlwinds, dreadnoughts, thunder hawks. A Chapter has a lot of resources available to it. 

The Imperial Fists would win, easily. In 40k, which is a more over the top universe than Star Wars is (on the whole, excluding some of the more ridiculous expanded novels) there's not much which can withstand a whole chapter's might, so there's not going to be much from other settings. 

4 At-At's would cause no problems at all. The fists would have more Land Raiders than that and a lot more predators. Some concentrated lascannon fire and they would be slag. Their respective armour is utterly out of proportion. At-At's and At-St's are of no comparison with Land Raiders and Predators, which would even have the luxury of outnumbering their inferior opponents. 

Then there's the horrific disparity between a Space Marine and a Storm Trooper. A Space Marine is an augmented super human clad in armour that's nigh invulnerable to small arm fire. A Storm Trooper is a regular human, albeit a clone of a superior example. His armour is vulnerable to arrows. Seriously, Storm Trooper armour can be penetrated by arrows. Imagine then what a bolter round is going to do to one. 

There's really no contest here. On the physical level and in terms of armament the Space Marines are superior. On the strategic and tactical level they're superior with a wider range of vehicles and transportation options, the tactical knowledge of centuries old warriors, and greater operation capability and longevity. 

Note i'm comparing to the movie depictions which are the original source material and for a long time the only official source material. the expanded universe material is pretty much a wank fest and gets far too ridiculous. Each one tries to out do the others in displays of the force.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

hailene said:


> EU is non-canon. Lucas himself has stated it multiple times.
> 
> So are we debating SW vs WH40k or Expanded Universe vs WH40k.
> 
> They're (in Lucas's words) two separate universes.


EU Ill edit that!


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Rems said:


> Given that the Blood Angels have about 50 Land Raiders i'm sure the Imperial Fists have a couple dozen aswell, the perks of being a First Founding chapter.
> 
> Not to mention all the other vehicles from the armoury; predators, vindicators, land speeders, thunder fire canons, whirlwinds, dreadnoughts, thunder hawks. A Chapter has a lot of resources available to it.
> 
> ...


Got ya I use the Expanded Universe cause it does stand more so a chance lol. I aslo only threw out 4 AT-ATs like he had in the Hoth Force compered to 6 LRs max maybe. 

Lets say 10 AT-ATs vs 10 LRs for Example.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

So where are you getting these numbers from? Compare known quantities to known quantities not 'fair comparisons'. War's not fair. 

If you're using EU then why even bother? In that force users can crush whole planets or pull starships from the sky. What's the point when it's so over the top.


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## jeep3rs (Aug 28, 2010)

Rems said:


> What's the point when it's so over the top.


You do know we are discussing Warhammer 40k, right?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Rems said:


> So where are you getting these numbers from? Compare known quantities to known quantities not 'fair comparisons'. War's not fair.
> 
> If you're using EU then why even bother? In that force users can crush whole planets or pull starships from the sky. What's the point when it's so over the top.





jeep3rs said:


> You do know we are discussing Warhammer 40k, right?


Over the Top? This is 40K where Daemon Princes creat Worlds of Blood. Daemons like Skarbrand destroy Worlds. Magnus can crush a Warfleet in the Solar System.

You cant give me that. At least IF have mutiple Librarians. The reason SW EU is great is cause the 501st Storm Troopers have Skills.


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## Cruxyh (Apr 22, 2012)

So, I am going to assume we are talking about the Imperial II-Class when you mention Star Destroyers, the passenger complement of that is around 9700, at least according to Wookiepedia, so 1 star destroyer should easily be able to carry the entire 501st. also of note are 20 AT-ST's, 20 AT-AT's and appearantly some 72 TIE-Fighters... so let me be reasonable and say that most of those are at least TIE-Interceptors.

Granted, they would probably have a load of support and smaller patrol ships, like the Imperial fists.

AT-AT's and AT-ST's are, especially for combat worth, somewhat overrated due to the fact they use legs, which makes them rather vulnerable, especially around the joints of said legs, i'dd imagine.

Storm trooper armour has been mentioned before so yeah, not to mention that Space Marines would have little trouble dealing with IG Stormtrooper level soldiers.

On to the Imperial Fists; you said the entire chapter, so that's multiple Battle-barges, Strike cruisers and smaller patrol vessels, frigates, etc etc. As far as space is concerned, the Imperial Fists would definitly have the advantage, considering that they, unlike the 501st, can actually launch boarding attacks against the enemy and odds are they have quite a lot of experience with it.

And that's me done for now, since I got to run for work. :laugh:


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## Smokes (Nov 27, 2009)

Neither. Darth Vader is a Inquisitorial agent. Disappears at the right time and the entire sector is exterminated.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> EU Ill edit that!


Okie doke. Then I'll have to step out. My knowledge of EU is pitiful. Of the actual SW universe I know quite a bit from the ST vs SW debates that roll around.

From what I understand, the EU is a real mish-mash of capabilities for force users and technology. Even worse than WH40k. Too many authors, not enough unifying editing.


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## crabpuff (Aug 5, 2008)

In the end a emperor wins.
It might be more interesting if it was half the chapter, but the full chapter with all resources is too much.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Considering the fact that AT AT's are designed to shoot targets directly in front of them and no where else. I'd say their most powerful land weapon is useless.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

As a side note - arrows have more stopping power than conventional bullets - long bows fired directly at people would go through a good few of em... Although I believe storm troopers vision is based on heat... similar to predators. It's the only possible reason why they lose to the ewoks. And the 'advanced' ewok tech...

40k wins hands down for me - armour, guns, ships, personnel and overall design are all better than star wars. It's why I'm on heresy not a star wars site 

But in the meantime I think we should do the beneath....
40k vs
Aliens, He-man, Thundercats, Transformers, Dino-Riders, Gobots, Rock Lords, Visionairies, Mad Ballz, Robotix, Star Fleet, Terrahawks, Thunderbirds, Inspector Gadget, Danger Mouse, Raggy Dolls, Power Rangers, Manta Force, Cabbage Patch Kids, 
Robocop, Terminator, Predator - again..., Starship troopers, Bill and Ted, Hungry Hippo's, Mouse trap and the last starfighter. 

And finally, if you've not seen Eddie Izzard talking about the death star canteen it's beneath. With lego re-enactment


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

IF takes this. Vader is taking Lysander's hammer to the face.

40k Universe is just way too overpowered compared to most other universes.

Realistically, it's basically only DBZ and Marvel who have even more overpowered shit than 40k.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Chompy Bits said:


> IF takes this. Vader is taking Lysander's hammer to the face.
> 
> 40k Universe is just way too overpowered compared to most other universes.
> 
> Realistically, it's basically only DBZ and Marvel who have even more overpowered shit than 40k.


I agree. I love the Vine but whenver 40k gets brought up most people have liitle knoweldge o them and they lose to Jedi Force Crush or Batmans explosive Batarangs. Makes me mad actually. I wish I still had all the Codexes, I use too, but dont anymore for the fluff.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Just so everyone knows the star destroyers would bring 120 ATAT to the table as they carry 20 each, the chin lasers alone would wipe out the chapter within minutes, then there would be the ATST shots.
Anyway its a silly vs silly thread, a space marine is a very good unit, but like everything in the 40k universe the numbers are all wrong.

Lets put it another way if you had 100 marines vs 800 guardsmen, would you bet your entire wage on the 100 marines winning ? ok thats it scaled down, but lets make it interesting, 100 marines with 5 land raiders and 5 preds vs 800 guard with 12 ATAT vehicles and 12 ATST lets say the 40k equiv would be 6 warhounds and 6 knight titans?

personally my money is on the 800 guard and escorts.

Ok in space that battle is stacked in the marines favour, but thats because 6 star destroyers and 2 frigates is no match for what the marines would have, being as the marines brought there fleet it would only be logical to match there fleet with vaders death squadron fleet, which was anywhere between 6 and 33 capital ships and more importantly includes the executor super star destroyer. 
plus if the phalanx is chucked in surely the deathstar would also have to be considered, being as that is also a flying space station? 

and if there is any doubt watch this


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

I find it hard to equivocate the AT-ST to anything but a 40k sentinel, armed with at best a TL-lascannon, worst a multi-lasor. 

That thing is hardly titan quality.


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

The problem with comparing two separate universes that repeatedly contradict themselves immensely and are open to such massive amounts of interpretation that both are constantly re-writing themselves and arguments are had within their own fanbases for years and years.... Is that the lines are a little blurred. And of course it would take a ridiculous amount of man hours to acquire adequate knowledge of both universes to make an accurate assessment of the two opposing forces, by which time usually one side or both has been declared non cannon and you have to go back to the drawing board to start again. 

At least that has been my take on it so far.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

AT-ATs and AT-STs are by no means the equivalent to a Land Raider.

AT-STs, for instance, are shown being destroyed - literally, destroyed - by primitive boobie traps that involve the kinetic energy of swinging logs. AT-ATs are incredibly ponderous, lack any agility, and feature no firepower outside the front 90 degree cone covered by their head-mounted cannon.

Ultimately, though, cegorach has it right. There's just too much contradiction within the fluff to come up with a good comparison. For every negative (SW blasters are a joke compared to 40K small arms), there's something out of this world (Starkiller's Force powers, for instance).

Cheers,
P.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

In a ground battle, I don't see how SW has a chance...
The entire IF chapter is going to have a bunch of librarians too, Vader is doomed


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## ICatoSicarius235 (Jan 18, 2021)

Warlock in Training said:


> I agree. I love the Vine but whenver 40k gets brought up most people have liitle knoweldge o them and they lose to Jedi Force Crush or Batmans explosive Batarangs. Makes me mad actually. I wish I still had all the Codexes, I use too, but dont anymore for the fluff.


me: _sees this_ Impossible. You were arguing that Jedi are gods.


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