# Do you support Matt Ward?



## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Serpion5 asked me to take this discussion to another thread...so here I am. Matt Ward



GabrialSagan said:


> If you like Matt Ward's work, buy it. As long as people buy what Matt Ward writes Matt Ward will continue to be employed by GW.
> 
> If there was a universal boycott on all Matt Ward materials, GW would stop publishing his works.
> 
> You are the citizen of a free country, you are entitled to do whatever you want with your money.





Loki1416 said:


> If it was a Black Library book written by Ward, I could see and understand a boycot of it. But when it's a Codex, something that is essential to have to even play that specific army, then there really isnt a choice in saying "I wont buy it". A lot of people love GK, and I'm one of them, and despite the horrible writting, have no choice in the matter because we want to play a GK army.





GabrialSagan said:


> You always have a choice, if you buy a book written by Matt Ward then you choose to support Matt Ward.


comments?


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

I'm not a fan of Mat Ward, I don't think his fluff is up to much but it wouldn't stop me buying a Codex for an army I like, it didn't stop me buying the Blood Angels dex and it wouldn't have stopped me buying any others. 

The fluff is something you have to deal with, GW are not going to change it for you just to make you feel like a special little snowflake. Fluff is something that changes over time and to be honest its time to suck it up, buttercup, because everyone is sick of hearing you moan about it.

Locked.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Unlocked

Keep things civil, and do not let this degenerate into a Matt Ward hate thread or bashing of each other.

This is to serve as the only warning members are going to get in this thread.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

darkreever said:


> Unlocked
> 
> Keep things civil, and do not let this degenerate into a Matt Ward hate thread or bashing of each other.
> 
> This is to serve as the only warning members are going to get in this thread.


Thank you...please feel free to delete the forum entitled "I am sorry..."


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## Sequere_me_in_Tenebras (Nov 11, 2012)

I'm curious. Exactly what is the issue with Matt Ward's fluff? Some examples perhaps? [for one who doesn't know]


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Sequere_me_in_Tenebras said:


> I'm curious. Exactly what is the issue with Matt Ward's fluff? Some examples perhaps? [for one who doesn't know]


I'm actually curious about this myself. I heard complaints in regards to Draigo carving a name in daemon primarch Mortarions heart but all in all that didn't seem terribly far fetched to me.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Sequere_me_in_Tenebras said:


> I'm curious. Exactly what is the issue with Matt Ward's fluff? Some examples perhaps? [for one who doesn't know]


Just as an example Khornate Knights and Marneus Calgar as the Spiritual Liege.



darkreever said:


> I'm actually curious about this myself. I heard complaints in regards to Draigo carving a name in daemon primarch Mortarions heart but all in all that didn't seem terribly far fetched to me.


With Draigo the thing that seems far fetched to me is.



GabrialSagan said:


> Draigo has spent centuries doing the Warp's equivalent of Horde Mode. Taking on an endless supply of daemonic foes. In all that time, against hellbeasts, lesser daemons, greater daemons, and daemon princes (beings that are more powerful than primarchs.) Nothing has ever managed to kill him.


How does Draigo consistently kill monsters that are Horus's peers? Horus, who crippled the Emperor?


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

So your example is going to be a name and links to two 4chan pages?

You do understand that none of that is of much help right?

And use the edit button, its not very hard.




GabrianSagan said:


> How does Draigo consistently kill monsters that are Horus's peers? Horus, who crippled the Emperor?


I don't know where your getting all your information from, though if its all 4chan or 40k wiki that would explain a few things, but very few daemon princes are the equal of the daemon primarchs. Some of the most powerful greater daemon are, and more so, but daemon princes are mortals ascended to daemonhood, of which the primarchs themselves are.

And its not like he is fighting daemons every waking moment, there are spans of time when he is not fighting.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

They are just examples. The 1d4chan pages can explicate on the issues with Ward's fluff far more eloquently than I could phrase it.

If I were to try though...

Matt Ward has a tendency to transform the fluff of his favored armies into Mary Sues. He put the Ultramarines and the Grey Knights on pedestals at the expense of other factions. In addition he spearheaded a massive and controversial retconning of the Necrons.


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## Sequere_me_in_Tenebras (Nov 11, 2012)

GabrialSagan said:


> Just as an example Khornate Knights and Marneus Calgar as the Spiritual Liege.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This statement is ehem... interesting...

"... With a few fringe exceptions... all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines... "

He actually said that, wow!

I also see the problem with Bloodtide. If it's true that no Grey Knight has fallen to Chaos temptations, then yes that is a issue. However, when isn't there some variation of fluff. It's always been a problem.



GabrialSagan said:


> Matt Ward has a tendency to transform the fluff of his favored armies into Mary Sues.


HA HA this made me chuckle. Was exactly what I was thinking when reading it.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

darkreever said:


> So your example is going to be a name and links to two 4chan pages?
> 
> You do understand that none of that is of much help right?
> 
> ...


I did not mean to imply that Draigo fights greater daemons every day before tea. But Draigo has been trapped on the chaos gods' home turf for centuries and has killed everything thrown at him. Some of those warp-spawn are bound to be in the upper echelons of the chaos-hierarchy.


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## Thantis (Dec 3, 2012)

From a fluff and rules standpoint I perfer other writers. I feel you should write the rules as fairly as you can so you can have a fun book to play with/against. Some armies are not fun to play against due to overpowered units.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

To be honest i never really gave much thought to who the writer was until i visited this forum and saw the hatred towards ward, i have never really cared about the fluff of an army generally and really just see it as filler to make the codex and rule books thicker,personally i would be happy for them to remove pretty much most of the fluff and replace them with pretty pictures as the made up back stories of what any character was doing in m33 etc isnt really that important, the models and the games i play with my army and a broad outline of the race and units is all im really interested in.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Thantis said:


> From a fluff and rules standpoint I perfer other writers. I feel you should write the rules as fairly as you can so you can have a fun book to play with/against. Some armies are not fun to play against due to overpowered units.


Amen. The thing though is that people keep buying his materials.

When I took econ back in high school we learned about consumer sovereignty. The concept that the primary dictator of what products are put on the market are the buying habits of consumers. If people don't buy something then it will eventually leave the marketplace. When I got older I saw this concept played out with New Coke. Coca-cola put its entire empire behind getting people to drink New Coke, but people did not like the taste and no amount of marketing could change their minds. Eventually Coke caved and reintroduced Coca-cola classic.

The only reason that Matt Ward is allowed to publish codices and other fluff is because people pay money for Matt Ward's works. It is an interesting paradox, a paradox I am seeking to understand.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

You've sort of answered your own question, people still buy it meaning they don't feel the same as you about the whole situation. 

If you were the only person who didn't like the taste of new coke then coca cola wouldn't have caved and change the flavour back. 

You are among a very small minority of people who give enough of a crap about Mat Ward to not want to buy the books he writes, you're not part of a large enough group for GW to care about. Mat Ward's books sell just fine with or without you.


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## daxxglax (Apr 24, 2010)

I'd have to agree- the rules are what are really important. Speaking personally though, the background info is still a big part of why I enjoy 40k. Ward writes some of the most adolescent, over-the-top, clumsy fluff I've ever seen. It's been discussed to the moon and back, and the hate for him often gets crassly hyperbolic, but I just don't think he's a good background writer. I'd be willing to bet he has a sign over his office door that reads "Abandon all subtlety, ye who enter here." 

On the other hand, I cannot say how tired I am of the internet-at-large's frothing reactions to hearing his name. "Boycotting" him is childish. These are books that are necessary to play the game. This is a sentiment that reeks of fan-entitlement. Now, I think he's better at rules than he is at background-writing, but I would liken his effect on an army's playability to taking a big air pump, shoving it into the army, and pumping vigorously, whereas, say, Phil Kelly has a more balanced, complete view of how to construct rules. Say what you will, I think Ward did alright with Necrons. It breathed new life into a rusty old army (no pun intended), though some would argue they're overpowered. Some of their advantages, though (e.g. Scythes being flyers, Overwatch, etc.), are due to rule changes in 6th ed. His rule-building, at its core, is predicated entirely on making whatever faction he's writing for a hulking mass of over-the-top rules, creating disparity with other, non-Wardian codices. While I don't really like Ward's background and I'm not entirely fond of his rule-building, I do think he's getting better.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

daxxglax said:


> This is a sentiment that reeks of fan-entitlement.


Forgive me if I am misinterpret what you mean but are you implying that 40k fans are not entitled to quality fluff? As if fluff ought to be the self-indulgent twiddlings of the devs with total disregard for the consumers? Forgive me but I am of the opinion that fluff, like crunch, is a consumer product and that people are entitled to quality.


Is it just me or is one of the reasons that people support Ward is because people who play using his codices benefit tactically on the game board by virtue of the fact that he beefs up his favorites, giving them a distinct edge over other armies?


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

No, most people neither support nor dislike Ward, most people are indifferent, they couldn't care less.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

I don't like this rules. He has a tendency to break the game with new absurd rules. He takes whatever power ceiling there was and then goes above it with silly and sometimes stupid rules. He seems to have some sort of fetish with doing a one up on every other codex with his new ones.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I too do not appreciate Matt Ward's contribution to Warhammer 40k fluff. I think we keep on kidding ourselves when we think Matt Ward really has done a good job. I feel the main contributions to lore has come from the authors, even though some of it may be controversial. 

Now I have to becareful how I say this, but there is truth to it; authors like ADB and Graham McNeill have really had a question mark going around their heads about Matt Ward. There have been instances where they have said something concerning his fluff. But then again, what can they do, if he's just going to stay there? They could become threats to GW if they really start protesting about funky fluff from someone as powerful as Matt Ward. ADB has written a sort of acceptance statement about fluff going on. Its was a sort of, "we have to suck it up" thing. 

If Matt Ward's speciality isn't in fluff, (and I think that given the preference most fans would not chose his fluff) then why do we accept it? If we do, why doesn't Matt Ward start writing for Black Library? Why do we let it influence what long time author's have contributed to GW? That makes no sense to me. 

As far as the game, I'm not sure I totally dislike the new rules, but I do miss previous editions a lot more. I thought they were more enjoyable. That could be a matter of opinion, but I do. 

I'm also not quite sure how the fans are about what they want in their codex. What if GW went back to an edited and updated 4th edition? Are the Matt Ward fans really just going to accept it? Because, that's pretty much what I've been hearing from people who like the more recent editions.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Now I have to becareful how I say this, but there is truth to it; authors like ADB and Graham McNeill have really had a question mark going around their heads about Matt Ward. There have been instances where they have said something concerning his fluff. But then again, what can they do, if he's just going to stay there? They could become threats to GW if they really start protesting about funky fluff from someone as powerful as Matt Ward. ADB has written a sort of acceptance statement about fluff going on. Its was a sort of, "we have to suck it up" thing.


Where does this power come from?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

GabrialSagan said:


> Where does this power come from?


Probably from the fact that he writes over 60% of the Codices for GW.

I don't agree that Matt Ward is a poor writer. People complain about how he writes horrible books, and he makes loads of overpowered units, and they're almost unbeatable. The same people then say how Vendettae and Thunderwolves are game-breaking army-crushers, how Imperial Guard and Space Wolves are so IMBA, whilst not a word is mentioned of all those uber-army-destroying OP cheese units in Codex: Space Marines. 

Point numero un: Phil Kelly and Robin Cruddace are responsible for Space Wolves and Imperial Guard. Ward wrote Space Marines, which has no units lauded as 'OMGWTFOP!!!11!'. Point numero deux: Ward doesn't hide away in an office something, and then sneak the manuscript to the printers without telling anyone. It takes a group of people to write a Codex; look in the front or back page of your Codex. You will see a large number of names in the small print. Point numero trois: lots of these things *are not overpowered*. Sure, Grey Knights get good kit and they get good deals on it, but they are FORCED to pay for Force Weapons on every man. Not many points, but still points. I'd certainly remove the NFW from a unit of GKs and receive Psybolt Ammunition in it's place had I the option. They are a generalist army that has little to no >24" shooting of worth, and are forced to be expensive (GK) or fragile (Henchmen). Necrons' infantry are vulnerable to most all of the anti-Infantry guns in the game at the moment - Warriors don't have the saves to weather weight of fire, and Autocannons and Heavy Bolters (those crap guns that nobody takes... in 5th), while being expensive enough to feel the losses from these guns. True, they have effective Flyers. But no more effective than Imperial Guard, but of course Matt Ward wrote Necrons so the Flyers are IMBA.

I think there's a myth surrounding Matt Ward that makes his creations less well-accepted by the community, regardless of their actual worth.

Midnight


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## daxxglax (Apr 24, 2010)

GabrialSagan said:


> Forgive me if I am misinterpret what you mean but are you implying that 40k fans are not entitled to quality fluff? As if fluff ought to be the self-indulgent twiddlings of the devs with total disregard for the consumers? Forgive me but I am of the opinion that fluff, like crunch, is a consumer product and that people are entitled to quality.


You interpreted that rather obtusely. 40k fans are not "entitled" to good fluff. Fan entitlement is when fans, through the simple act of purchasing, feel that they own a bit of the game, so when something doesn't go the way they feel it should, the creators "owe it to them" to "fix it." Now, one may argue that since the fans have the buying power, giving the creators roofs over their heads and food on their tables, they are "entitled" to whatever they think is best. The truth is, it's a give-and-take relationship. The creators owe the fans exactly nothing. Of course, if they make crap, they'll have no more fans. But that can be discounted due to the fact that you are still buying the product, so clearly the Singularity of Wardian Error hasn't occured yet (nor will it ever). Make no mistake, it is not up to the creators to listen to every Average Joe Space Marine Player about their personal gripes with the system. You don't have to like Ward's fluff. There is such a mammoth wealth of background material, even for the factions Ward has written for, that it's possible to ignore it and turn elsewhere.

MidnightSun's post is fantastic, especially "There's a myth surrounding Matt Ward that makes his creations less well-accepted by the community, regardless of their actual worth." Agreed 100%


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## iamtheeviltwin (Nov 12, 2012)

Ward tends to write "Breathless" fluff from the point of view of the codex's protagonists. This is a decided change from the old style "Inquisitorial" point of view of older codexes that had a more neutral tone. However, it is not limited to Ward. Read the Dark Eldar fluff or the Space Wolf fluff. It is all told from the "we are kings" point of view. This was part of the change with the Necron lore, we got a chance to see Necrons from their own point of view. It is done deliberately to make a faction seem more exciting and to make a player understand the mentality of the faction they are playing. You are no longer a detached commander moving plastic toys, but a Space Viking crusading against Imperial enemies or a Decadent Merchant lord raiding the lesser races of their valuable lives and treasure.

As for "Mary Sue" writing...that is a term that is misused often. The closest thing to a Mary Sue that I have seen from Ward would be Draigo, but even Draigo isn't the second coming of the Emperor, hasn't single-handedly ended the Perils faced by the Empire, or even been retroactively inserted into every major plot point of the fluff.

As for his "poster boy" Ultramarines...they have been the face of the Space Marines since 2ed...nothing he has done has changed that.

Ward has quickly become the "bogey man" used to tar all fluff/rules decisions that people are unhappy with (see the recent what's wrong with CSM thread)


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## The Gunslinger (Apr 4, 2011)

Personally I really like the necron’s new fluff, it turned a boring, un appealing, army which had no background other then, we are going to kill you just because we hate living things, into a army with a really rich background of dynasties and politics, opinions and motives. In fact im finally finding them an appealing army and am considering starting a necron army because the new fluff is something I can get into and plus the new models are cool. Before the change I would never have touched them. To bland.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

He is a large part of the GW system because they chose to have him be there. Internet hate of him is a small chunk of actual sales and means nothing to GW. It takes more than Ward to get a book released. He doesn't write for the Black Library because he isn't a writer. He is a game rules developer and part of a games system development team. Just because the Black Library writes books in the 40k universe does not mean they are part of the GW game system. If Ward could write books that sold in the Black Library he would be too busy with that to do his job. If you feel the need to boycott him then do so, it is your money to spend. Do not belittle others or frown upon them if they decide to use their money to buy his work.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

My biggest issue with him is power creep. However he has come a long way since fantasy demons and fantasy orks and goblins. Given the new trend that may be occuring, i will give him the benefit of the doubt.

As to fluff, I honestly dont care much. I liked the old necrons but i can understand why people like making them tomb kings. As to blood angels... i find space marines pretty bland and boring as a rule. So, dont really care. 

If his rules keep improving and they have come a long way, i support him. If he keeps power creeping in 6th, i will hold him and all of GW responsible.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Probably from the fact that he writes over 60% of the Codices for GW.
> 
> 
> 
> Midnight


Do you see the circular logic in that? He is powerful because he writes the codices, but he only maintains his ability to write said codices because he is so powerful.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

daxxglax said:


> You interpreted that rather obtusely. 40k fans are not "entitled" to good fluff. Fan entitlement is when fans, through the simple act of purchasing, feel that they own a bit of the game, so when something doesn't go the way they feel it should, the creators "owe it to them" to "fix it." Now, one may argue that since the fans have the buying power, giving the creators roofs over their heads and food on their tables, they are "entitled" to whatever they think is best. The truth is, it's a give-and-take relationship. The creators owe the fans exactly nothing. Of course, if they make crap, they'll have no more fans. But that can be discounted due to the fact that you are still buying the product, so clearly the Singularity of Wardian Error hasn't occured yet (nor will it ever). Make no mistake, it is not up to the creators to listen to every Average Joe Space Marine Player about their personal gripes with the system. You don't have to like Ward's fluff. There is such a mammoth wealth of background material, even for the factions Ward has written for, that it's possible to ignore it and turn elsewhere.
> 
> MidnightSun's post is fantastic, especially "There's a myth surrounding Matt Ward that makes his creations less well-accepted by the community, regardless of their actual worth." Agreed 100%


I must disagree. Consumers are entitled to the best product a supplier is capable of generating. The attitude that fans should just suck it up and take it is absurd.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

There is nothing wrong with the product, you just don't like it. As a consumer it is your right to not buy it. Others do like it or don't care, since sales are doing great they are obviously the majority. GW is a business out to sell product, if the product sells they are not going to get rid of the producer.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

My only real issue with MW fluff is draigo. I'm fully content to believe that chaos is constantly testing them with all the badass things that he has done. in such that if he doesn't fight then he falls to chaos. 

The internet apparently doesn't feel that way.

However I think the biggest issue is with the players. There's space marine players that named all their space marines and created a full background for their chapter. Then they get wiped by a player using the green tide or nidswarm and what happens?

They start getting butthurt because they spent hundreds of hours working on their army and they don't win 100% of the time. 

So what do they do?

They blame the person who wrote the codex. as if they are the ones who are making the choices in game.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Honestly I think that ward is one of GWs best codex writers from a rules perspective.

Codex necrons is IMO one of the best codexes that GW have ever released. The army has a lot of variety, obviously some units are better than others but it has many viable builds 

For GKs ever since codex deamonhunters was around there were moans about why haven't GKs got power weapons, as in an assault GKs were actually pretty awful for their points cost, So I think that was a good change. They still struggled to hurt tanks (not such an issue in 6th I grant) GKs can be beaten with a bit of thought and strategy, due to their points cost and generally very small army size

The reason I don't like ward is the fluff. Every book he writes the fluff is awful, almost like it was written by a 14 yr old. That and his books tend to include a big cheesy character that people seem to love

Easy fix get someone like Cruddace to write the fluff, and get Ward to write the rules


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

I am 100% satisfied with the job Matt Ward is doing. Necrons is a fun book to play, and I completely enjoyed reading it. Grey Knights is over the top, but as an army in general they're over the top. I haven't touched a Blood Angels codex, but Space Marines was inspiring and also enjoyable to read. I've heard 6th was mostly a Ward work, and, i'll be damned, it's the most fun version of 40k i've played. 
I notice it's the same couple of users coming into relevant threads to crap on Ward and his work. I've seen the same few names in the Old vs New Necron thread, Problems with CSM and probably a few others i'm too tired to remember. I will probably not buy any other books he writes since I have my Necron codex and my 6th edition, but i'll gladly continue to buy models from the range and wear out my codex, buying another if I need to.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

I would be happy with Kelly or Ward writing my Eldar codex. Fluffnis nice but for any old timer we can tell you how much fluff is always changing. It's getting bit better but every edition changes stuff. Example, Ultra Marines where a 3rd founding company iirc. 

The issue is 1. Your basing your economic prowess on a high school class. 2. With new coke as an example, you had Pepsi, RC cola etc. With the space marine codex,you only have that codex unless you write your own. 3. You're quoting 4chan as your points to an argument, that's pretty much an auto lose in my eyes. If you have something to say type put YOUR argument about it or at least copy paste it in.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

I don't have any feelings either way about the writers. For the most part they're all pretty reasonable, improving with each book and generally less bad than they were before.

Are they perfect? Not really. Do they have things that I wish were better explained or written? Sure. Do they write books I can have fun playing with or against? Damn skippy. And it's the last one that'll keep me picking up all the books so I can keep in the loop of what's going on all over the place.


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## davespil (Apr 28, 2008)

So all of the problems with Matt Ward are about the fluff? Who cares. Who buys codexes for the fluff? If you want fluff go read all that crap that the black library tries to pass off as literature.

Its all make up stuff that's subject to change anyway. I loved John Grisham's stuff until he turned away from lawyer-fiction. I moved on, you guys should too. But codexes are for rules, fluff is just in there so I have to pay more for the damn codex.

And the Necron codex was great. It gave a very limited army a lot of new units that work very well together. It is finally a complete army. If they want to completely change their fluff I don't care. As long as the models look good and the army plays well Matt Ward can make them a bunch of communist terrorists who love the UN in the fluff for all I care. I will buy Matt Ward's Codexes as long as they are good. Fluff be damned!


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## redmapa (Nov 9, 2011)

I have no beef against ward, his fluff may be over the top but 40k itself is over the top so i dont really care, he isnt my favorite writer and i think hes books are boring but beyond that i got nothing against him


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Why is Matt Ward so detested? Fluff-wise, I came to the following conclusions. I cannot speak for all who dislike Matt Ward and furthermore, I admit that I am biased against Matt Ward myself:
*
Flat Characters*

Many of Matt Ward's characters, such as the Sanguinor, Kaldor Draigo, Garran Crowe, Torias Telion, etc. have little defining personality traits besides "awesome". The result are characters that do not endear themselves to me as a fluff addict; I can't do a thing with them. Note that this only applies to characters in their base Codex form; further elaboration, such as Nick Kyme's Cato Sicarius and Graham McNeill's Marneus Calgar, can change my opinion of such characters.

Furthermore, many fluff stories centered around them in their codices serve only to inflate that sense of awesomeness, in both the character and the army as a whole, sometimes at the expense of more well-established characters. Ex. Sanguinor vs. Ka'Bandha, Draigo vs. Mortarion & Bodyguard
*
Shattering of Willing Suspension of Disbelief & Out-of-Character Moments*

Going hand in hand with the attempt to make characters more awesome is a shattering of disbelief, mainly that Ward's characters accomplish things utterly improbable or out of character, such as survival in the Warp in Draigo's case, or the Grey Knights 4th Brotherhood slaying pure Sisters of Battle to anoint their weapons and armor in their "innocent blood", or the Blood Angels and the Necrons allying on Gehenna against the Tyranids and then leaving each other be, allegedly because Dante was loathe to turn on recent allies, nevermind that they were xenos and would haunt the Imperium another day, or that Marneus Calgar let the Tau evacuate Malbede before Exterminatus, much for the same reason.

Note that there is a distinction between "impossible" and "improbable". Warhammer 40,000 is full of impossibilities; a first glance at the setting can make that clear. However, to retain the willing suspension of disbelief, a setting must remain consistent with itself. Many examples listed above feature characters accomplishing highly improbable feats for a character of their power - ex. Calgar holding a gate against an Ork Waaagh! for a night and a day, Draigo surviving the Warp, Crowe being extra-pure in a chapter already notable for its purity, the Grey Knights having enough Terminator armor to outfit their entire chapter - without anything shifting the odds in their favor besides author favoritism and plot armor.
*
Violation of Previously-Established Fluff*

Ward has a history of violating previously-established fluff. The biggest and most damning example is that the Grey Knights are able to take Daemonhosts, despite that in the 10 years that Codex: Daemonhunters had been playable, they could not and in fact destested them. Other examples include the establishment of Kardan Stronos as Chapter Master of the Iron Hands, despite the fact that the Iron Hands are ruled by a clan council, and that Roboute Guilliman conquered more worlds than any other primarch, the consensus being that honor goes to Horus.
*
Attitude; Perceived as Tool*

Matt Ward has furthermore done nothing to endear himself to the Warhammer 40,000 fanbase. He has taken to throwing superlatives at whatever GW seems to be shilling at some point, describing every chapter with "some fringe exceptions, such as the Space Wolves and Dark Angels" as wanting to be like Ultramarines and consider Marneus Calgar to be their "spiritual liege". Read: that's nearly 1,000 chapters that allegedly want to be like the Ultramarines, including the Black Templars, who are not Codex-adherent. Furthermore, he has described the Ultramarines as "one of the hardest-working chapters out there" and "the most focused, proficient, and tactically-aware force in the galaxy..." in further ignorance of the Black Templars and their 10,000-year crusade. As though the shilling of the Ultramarines were not enough, Matt Ward's infamous "Draigo can make it happen" speech on the titular character's page on GW's website has cemented his status in the eyes of many fans as a tool. 

Ward's and by extension GW's favoritism can be seen in the Codices themselves, too, including a statement within the Blood Angels codex:

"Indeed, it was Guilliman who would have the greatest lasting effect upon the now leaderless Blood Angels. Through the Codex Astartes - that great treatise on the restructuring and ordering of the Space Marines - Guilliman's legacy would reshape the Blood Angels Legion into the Chapters that defend the Imperium to this day."

As well as the Space Marines Codex:

"Chapters in the second category [not descended from Guilliman's geneseed] are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars, and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch."

Both of these quotes, in the eyes of many fans, smack of grandiosity and arrogance. At least the second quote could be perceived as informative, but to do so would be to think the consumer is dumber than he or she actually is.

*On Codices*

"But wait!" you might say. "It's their codices. Of course perception of the army in question is going to be blown out of proportion in its own codex! It's been that way since forever!" But this is not always the case. Recently I acquired the 3rd Edition Space Marines codex and I have found it to very objective in its treatment of Space Marines; there is included a report by one Inquisitor Grim, who is critical of the White Panthers chapter's handling of the heresy on Kethra. He claims that the White Panthers were overly direct; by the end of their campaign, the traitorous governor of Kethra and his co-conspirators were summarily executed, but the Kethran PDF and Kethra's orbital defense platforms were destroyed completely, leaving Kethra vulnerable to alien attack (3e Codex: Space Marines, pg. 3). Furthermore, the codex shows more than it tells; most of the fluff is in the form of Inquisitorial reports, short stories, and terse descriptions of individual characters, squads, vehicles, and wargear that describe their role in a Space Marine army. Point being, GW's game developers had demonstrated ability to write objective (objectivity in 40k? HERESY!) and informative fluff or, in the case of fluff that might be aggrandizing towards a character or the army in general, provide a frame narrator, and Matt Ward has not done much of either. It's a letdown.

That said, without being an inveterate TT player, I cannot attack Ward's handling of crunch. Nevertheless, I hope this puts into perspective how I and others feel about Matt Ward's fluff and I now brace myself for the inevitable fiery rage of his supporters.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Well at last. I have been asking for something like this from the Ward hater fucktards for quite sometime, well done Protoss! 15 months this has taken.

Reasoned argument is a great thing and you set yourself apart from the general melange because of it.

For me I really don't care about any of the points in your post, as for me that side of things is not important. I accept that for some such things will grate upon their enjoyment and I sympathise with their plight.

"Attitude; Perceived as Tool" is the big one for me. I have not seen any of the things you mention but take at face value they are a true reflection of the fellows public announcements. Whether by arrogance or (perhaps more likely) a lack of social graces (not unusual for a 40k nerd? ) it seems he has shown himself to be a bit of a knob.

I can now go back to not caring and let you guys agree how much you hate things.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

In the First Heretic, I believe the Word Bearers ended up conquering the most worlds did they not?


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Sequere_me_in_Tenebras said:


> I'm curious. Exactly what is the issue with Matt Ward's fluff? Some examples perhaps? [for one who doesn't know]


There's a funny little short story in the Necron codex, wherein you will find a description of Necrons casually gathering around a table full of food, where they sit and just stare at it.

This is also the same piece of literary panaché where the White Scars chapter master had been imprisoned in a crypt, being the sole survivor of his very large raiding force. This implies a hell of a lot of plot armour, but wait, there's more! Out of the blue, as he is escaping, he gets into a fight with one of the Necron Special Characters on a staircase, nearly dies, but out of the blue an Eldar Ranger shows up to save his bum (but the Ranger dies)

That's not the only example where Ward was in pants-on-head territory, but it's the only one I will bother typing out as all you have to do for examples is to open one of his books.

However, I do not hate Ward. I certainly don't support him either. But I tolerate him. Mostly because, while his first few rule books were madly overpowered, eventually he's written more rule books that are equally overpowered so in the end he's not as bad for balance anymore.

Cruddace is the one I hate.



normtheunsavoury said:


> You've sort of answered your own question, people still buy it meaning they don't feel the same as you about the whole situation.
> 
> If you were the only person who didn't like the taste of new coke then coca cola wouldn't have caved and change the flavour back.
> 
> *You are among a very small minority of people who give enough of a crap about Mat Ward to not want to buy the books he writes, you're not part of a large enough group for GW to care about. Mat Ward's books sell just fine with or without you.*


You are only scraping the surface here.

Consider that GW are holding your army hostage. You invested in an army in 4th edition, you are going to want to buy the 5th or 6th edition codex no matter what. Not doing so involves getting rid of your investment altogether, or waiting 5 years of your life to use it again.

I think the group that don't like Ward's work _is big enough_, *you are simply exaggerating the amount of choice they have.*

I do have the willpower to not buy Cruddace's books. I did with Tyranids. I still haven't paid for that book, nor did I buy any of the new miniatures that came out with it.

Since Tau are 90% of my interest in GW's product, and 90% of my collection (Dark Eldar the rest) I am fully prepared to sell everything Ï own on the secondary market and wash my hands of GW if Cruddace is the writer of 6th edition Tau.

*Do understand though, that not everyone has that kind of willpower.*


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> *Do understand though, that not everyone has that kind of willpower.*


It's not about will power it's about care factor.


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## Jace of Ultramar (Aug 2, 2011)

In consideration of the feelings people have concerning the author of a codex, I can't imagine selling an army based off of that. Nor, would I let it sour my liking of the army itself. To me it just seems that a lot of emotion is getting invested in the liking/disliking of a 'dex due to the author.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

I'm not a fan of Ward fluff, that said the only Ward fluff I have read is Necron, and I personally preferred mindless, nothing can be reasoned with inderstructable metal skeletons, not masters of wit aristocrats who can actualy talk and believe in honour. And while the story about Korsaro Khan (whit scars guy, probably not spelt correct) with them all veing n a hall staring at food is 'pants-on-head', other stories such as the one the Anrakyr and Szeras taking out an imperial bunker is pretty good (especially when Szeras is put in his place)

But in an actual codex it's the rules that matter the most, you may argue that you need 'quality fluff' but if an army plays badly no one will buy it no matter how good the fluff is. Ward's rules aren't that bad. GK may be extremely powerful but not overpowered because players pay through the nose to get it, in fact I have only lost to GK once. Then you get other people saying that crons are overpowered, okay then what happens when you get them in combat? They die horribly.

People talk as if Ward choses his favourite armies and make them 'OP', when in fact he just makes the every codex he does 'OP' - even though he balances it out. Imagine armies being like Rock Paper Scissors, some armies have weaknesses to other armies and wipe the floor with others, playing as crons out of about 10 games I have one 1 against several Ork players.

And even though it says Ward wrote the codex, as Midnight says it is a joint effort from several writers to balance it out, so even though people say Kelly writes balanced codecies he in fact helped make some of the ones people think are OP


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

Necrons are nothing if not adhering to tradition and protocol. Perhaps the feast was laid out in honour of their guest, a well established warrior of the young races? These are creatures that have been alive for millennia, and concscious for thousands of years at the least. They have nothing better to do than attempt to mimic things they did in life. Hence the decades long political debates, week long soliloquies, etc etc.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Cruddace is the one I hate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think I've exaggerated anything, I never said anything about GW holding armies hostage. 
The simple fact of the matter is *Matt Ward sells books* and through the sale of those books he also sells grey plastic crack to gamers all over the world. If Matt ward didn't sell any books he would be out of GW HQ quicker than a Mantic Games salesman and no one would speak his name again.

When it comes to gamers who have armies that don't quite square up to the latest power dex, that's not GW holding you hostage, that's GW telling you they don't care if your army is competitive or not, no matter how many times people are told 40K is a beer and pretzel game they don't seem to listen. 
GW is not going to release a new dex that makes all of your old models great, it doesn't make financial sense for them to do that, new dex usually means new units and new models, this is how they make money from vets and noobs alike. 

If things have reached the stage where people are threatening to sell their armies, they should do it and stop moaning. Go play Infinity or Mantic or Flames of War, there are new people walking through the doors of GW every day, they won't miss you. The thing is, with very few exceptions, people don't, they bitch and moan until the next new shiny model gets released and then they jump back in with both feet. 

Gw don't hold hostages any more than Coca Cola or Nike trainers, if you don't like the product then don't buy it.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Do I support Matt Ward?
Nope, Rangers for me thanks 

I don't see why the big deal. Matt Ward is just another name from GW to me. And regarding the codex's, as far as I'm aware the name on the cover is simply the 'lead' person for that project. They aren't the only ones to have an imput into the rules and fluff.
Just because a "Matt Ward Codex" has a bit of garbage fluff or a broken rule in it, doesn't automatically mean he wrote it :read:


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## Stephen74 (Oct 1, 2010)

normtheunsavoury said:


> . Fluff is something that changes over time and to be honest its time to suck it up,
> Locked.


Fluff shouldn't change over time. There is no need for it to. Expand on it yes, completely change it like Matt Ward does. No.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

So all the fluff should have remained the same as it was in Rogue Trader? 

As much as I loved Rogue Trader I think things would have become a little stagnant by now.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

The thing is, there is no reason for it to stay the same either. It is filler for a rulebook of plastic army men. The rule books go out of their way to tell you that fluff is what you want. If you do not like what is written then do not use it.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

Considering how little it comes up in game anyways, such a big deal is being made of it. Most of the time little more than names and numbers are used... ten marines rapid firing bolters at this, unit a charging unit b...
If I played an opponent who fluff narrated the entire game, by the time it reached my second turn I'd be ready to quit. Fluff is all just suggestions for imagination post-game. I consider myself a fluff player but I could care less for more than half of what's in the book. It's filler.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

Ward's fluff-writing is abysmal. It feels like it's been written by a wide-eyed, starry-faced impressionable teenager, who wants to see awesome things happen at all costs. Just because making Draigo this awesomesauce dude of awesomeness doesn't make him a believable character, and doesn't make for good literature. Just because it might be cool to have Necrons defeat the C'tan (somehow... never explained), and become independent, doesn't mean people will automatically like Necrons more. Just because a cheesy movie-style alliance between Necrons and Blood Angels might appeal to his inner-boy, doesn't mean it should be written!

However, his rules-writing and design is outstanding. His books are brilliantly balanced, bring in a veritable array of army builds and tactical choices, and can all be played very competitively in the right hands. Sterling rules, abysmal fluff.


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## Keen4e (Apr 19, 2010)

I was completely neutral towards Matt Ward issue (I did not even know him) before I saw the new necron codex. It just does not seem right to me, to make out of soulless machines harvesting souls for C'tan gods, some bunch of aristocrats, who even have their own hobbies.
Necrons used to be the closest thing in 40k to the undead. Now I just see them as another technologically developed race of androids with varying degrees of self awareness. By the way, before seeing the new necron codex, I was hesitating to collect a necron army. With the new fluff, I would even refuse necron models given for free. So actually, I should be thankful to Mr Ward for sparing my wallet.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Yeh, I suppose I support Matt Ward. He's not been entirely on form after that groin injury, but I think with a bit of work from his coach he'll be fighting fit in no time. Bit out of practice if you know what I'm saying? His rivals are closing in so he needs to do well in his next major tournament in order to keep them at bay...

Oh, sorry the title had me a bit confused - thought we were talking sport.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

Has anyone read the white dwarf interview with mat about the space marine codex when it had just come out/about to come out. he is such an obvious fanboy of the ultramarines and No doubt this goes for the GK as well, that would explain some over the top fluff he has made.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

Keen4e said:


> I was completely neutral towards Matt Ward issue (I did not even know him) before I saw the new necron codex. It just does not seem right to me, to make out of soulless machines harvesting souls for C'tan gods, some bunch of aristocrats, who even have their own hobbies.
> Necrons used to be the closest thing in 40k to the undead. Now I just see them as another technologically developed race of androids with varying degrees of self awareness. By the way, before seeing the new necron codex, I was hesitating to collect a necron army. With the new fluff, I would even refuse necron models given for free. So actually, I should be thankful to Mr Ward for sparing my wallet.


Necrons are the only faction of technologically advanced androids with varying degrees of self-awareness in 40k. What army do you play? They are all tried and true sci-fi cliches in one way or another. As said again and again, fluff was intentionally written so you can play your boys true to the old book, so thanks for leaving more necrons on the shelf for me to buy. 
As to Ward's favouritism, have you ever considered that maybe he's just incredibly enthusiastic for this hobby, cementing his place in GW's employ?


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## DivineEdge (May 31, 2012)

Mat Ward isn't my favorite writer, Kelly probably is, but I don't dislike him or his books by any stretch of the imagination. A lot of people cry and whine and are constantly talking him down, which gets a bunch of people to jump on the "down with Mat Ward" train and they don't even know why. I would venture to say the vast majority of warhammer players don't hate Mat Ward. 

Is his fluff not the best? No, he isn't a great fluff writer. But he isn't an author. He is a rules writer. That is his primary job description. And almost all 40k fluff is pretty ridiculous. Even a lot of the black library novels aren't great, and this is from someone with passion for the game. If you are in this game for the fluff, then you will be consistently disappointed. And whining about the Draigo thing, seriously... Is it over the top? Yes. Is it ridiculous? Yes. But for every one person who whines about it, 10 kids pick it up and say "whoa, cool" and start dropping money into knights. So he succeeded there. 
Has he produced a Op codex or so (grey knights)? Sure, but who hasn't? Cruddace and Cavatore both drop the ball more in my opinion. Kelly and Thorpe are both pretty good. Ward wrote 6th which I would consider a smashing success. 

So yeah. Not my favorite author/codex writer, but I suppose I support him. It is your perogative to say whether he sucks or not. And all in all, any press is good press. GW probably likes the fact that people write/read Ward-bashing articles. It drives discussion then people will pick up a Ward codex or so to find out if he really is that bad. So they get more sales out of it.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Haskanael said:


> Has anyone read the white dwarf interview with mat about the space marine codex when it had just come out/about to come out. he is such an obvious fanboy of the ultramarines and No doubt this goes for the GK as well, that would explain some over the top fluff he has made.


Providing of course that the White Dwarf interview wasn't scripted to achieve a marketing goal, which it almost certainly was.

You guys need to stop thinking this bloke is some sort of uber powerful maverick who does as he wishes and GW cannot control.

Apart from a few spontaneous answers to live questions EVERYTHING this guys does it overseen by the corporate machine.


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## Insanity (Oct 25, 2011)

I'm not trying to antagonise the situation here, but I just couldn't help myself but laugh when I read this.

I was reading the Dark Eldar page on 1D4chan and came across this.
"continuing to engage in rampant hedonism and by torturing and inflicting pain and anguish on other creatures"
And it is hyperlinked to Matt Wards page.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Heh, 1d4Chan is funny, it should never be used as an debate point for or against anything though.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

I find their tactics section to be pretty spot on for the most part. A regular read for me


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> I don't think I've exaggerated anything, I never said anything about GW holding armies hostage.
> The simple fact of the matter is *Matt Ward sells books* and through the sale of those books he also sells grey plastic crack to gamers all over the world. If Matt ward didn't sell any books he would be out of GW HQ quicker than a Mantic Games salesman and no one would speak his name again.


I don't think thats really fair though. I don't think Matt Ward's success in retail has come from GW itself. I would also say the model designers and fluff makers. Matt Ward really isn't such a special guy. If Matt Ward does not become the author therefore books are not being sold? Thats not true... at all. Any author or creative writer/gw designer can do what Matt Ward does. If something prevented Matt Ward from being a writer for GW again, the rules and codexes would still be written and I don't think sales would be effected.

GW has held armies hostage because the main money from GW comes from the models, so most people that really could care about what army fluff stands at and have old tactics.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

scscofield said:


> Heh, 1d4Chan is funny, it should never be used as an debate point for or against anything though.


except on Angry Marines


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> I don't think thats really fair though. I don't think Matt Ward's success in retail has come from GW itself. I would also say the model designers and fluff makers. Matt Ward really isn't such a special guy. If Matt Ward does not become the author therefore books are not being sold? Thats not true... at all. Any author or creative writer/gw designer can do what Matt Ward does. If something prevented Matt Ward from being a writer for GW again, the rules and codexes would still be written and I don't think sales would be effected.
> 
> GW has held armies hostage because the main money from GW comes from the models, so most people that really could care about what army fluff stands at and have old tactics.


OK, I'll rephrase it, Matt Ward doesn't _not_ sell books.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Providing of course that the White Dwarf interview wasn't scripted to achieve a marketing goal, which it almost certainly was.
> 
> You guys need to stop thinking this bloke is some sort of uber powerful maverick who does as he wishes and GW cannot control.
> 
> Apart from a few spontaneous answers to live questions EVERYTHING this guys does it overseen by the corporate machine.


Agreed. Ward isn't some kind of vigilante rules writer that Jervis drags into his office once a week to scold and threaten to take away his parking space and shiny pen if he doesn't shape up.

Everything EVERY writer does passes a lot of levels to get where it is. It has to be proofed, revised, re-proofed, pass the fellow writers, pas the head writer/fluff keeper, pass test games, ect. This is all stretched out over two plus years.

Ward has not, and can not just send off a codex to get printed without all this happening. Everything he's been blamed for is not just his fault but everyone's fault who is involved.

Those video clips that GW puts online when new books come out or when 5th Edition dropped? All heavily scripted and edited just like any company released video. They likely had to repeat the same things several times just to get a good take, these are not your "off the cuff" sort of videos like you get on Youtube, these are made by a company that is very serious about how it looks publically.

So Ward's fluff? Company's fault. Ward's Rules? Company's Fault? The things Ward says in a GW released video? Company's fault.

About the only legitimate criticism that may exist is how he answers fan questions, and even then we can't blame Ward because "what he basically said came down to X" quickly becomes "he said X", especially on the internet. I have yet to see actual proof of him being a dick in public (just hearsay and fifth or sixth hand accounts) so I'm not going to hold these claims against him.

So can we stop playing "Pin the tail on the Scapegoat" already (and I mean this for all the authors, not just Ward)? GW is fully responsible for everything that comes out with his name on it, and gladly pays him for it, so apparently he's not doing so bad in their eyes, even if people in the community don't like it. So instead of blaming one person, let's please just blame GW as a whole when something mediocre or crap comes out. It spreads the blame to everyone involved this way, not jut to the name we see in big letters al the time.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

I finally sat down and read all the GK fluff Ward wrote while getting my hair cut today. I could list all the reasons it's poorly written, full of plot holes, silly and amateurish... but I will just save some time and say it's terrible and shame on both Ward and GW for letting it ever hit ink on paper. 

As for his rules, well, both he AND GW allowed them to break the typical 'rock, paper, scissors' balance of the game in an effort to sell models. I can't blame the company for trying to sell models but I can blame them for not finding a better way to do it than Str 10 auto hit deathrays, >95 point armor 13 skimmers, basic troops that can easily pelt Landraiders to death, unlimited wound power claws, flying Landraiders, Feel no Pain on everything, Scouting Landraiders... the list goes on and on... 



Sothot said:


> I find their tactics section to be pretty spot on for the most part. A regular read for me


Agreed, the SoB tactica helped me tremendously early on.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

I've seen plenty of plot holes in plenty of works not just in GW stuff either btw.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> snip


You're arguing besides the point.

You said Ward must have more willing followers and neutral-to-his-work players buying codices than there are active antagonists of his work.

I refuted it based on the fact that people buy shit against their will all the time.

Point still stands.

And again I will point out, that wishing people would stop moaning is going to get you an ulcer. If you are so offended by people voicing their opinions then maybe you don't even care about the game at all.

Regardless, I am still not one of the Ward haters. I already pointed that out. I am however pointing out the error in your assumptions.

People bitch and moan because they care. People bitch and moan about bitching and moaning because they don't.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

The problem with that stance is there is plenty if people that like and are happy with Ward's work.

It is also less a lack of caring on those that are indifferent and more a lack of patience with bitching. It is obvious that many are displeased. Bitching constantly on these forums about it won't change what makes them displeased.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

No.

People pay taxes against their will.
People get attacked against their will.
People are taken prisoner against their will.
People are abused against their will.

Never in the history of ever has anyone walked into a GW and bought a Codex against their will. 

The % of people who log onto internet forums and complain about Matt Ward is a tiny, almost insignificant number of people. Most people play 40K at home or at school with their mates and couldn't give a toss who Matt Ward is. Ultimately, if people hate him that much they should refuse to buy his books, I'm sure a number of people do this already and lo and behold! It hasn't made even a gnats shits worth of difference because there are not enough people pissed off with Matt Ward, simples. 

And people moan because they can and because its easy and very rarely because they have anything valid to say, much like the Matt Ward haters who claim their army is being held hostage and GW put a gun to their head and made them buy a book. 

Bollocks.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

You're wrong. Plenty of people have bought codices specifically, against their will. My friend who plays IG was soulcrushed and heartbroken of what Cruddace did to Storm Troopers (he had invested a five digit number of pounds in an all Storm Trooper army in white metal) where they became 55% more expensive in points and so now he will only ever get to use a fraction of the collection. Even when playing apocalypse it'll be a stretch to get them all on the table. And he doesn't even like that the gun is now AP3.

He still walked into the store and bought the codex, simply because playing with half his collection was better to him than playing with none of it.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> He still walked into the store and bought the codex, simply because playing with half his collection was better to him than playing with none of it.


You left out the bit where someone forced him into the shop and made him buy it.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Magpie_Oz said:


> You left out the bit where someone forced him into the shop and made him buy it.


Ah, this reminds me of how I started the hobby in the first place. Ahh, nostalgia. :smoke:


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> You're wrong. Plenty of people have bought codices specifically, against their will. My friend who plays IG was soulcrushed and heartbroken of what Cruddace did to Storm Troopers (he had invested a five digit number of pounds in an all Storm Trooper army in white metal) where they became 55% more expensive in points and so now he will only ever get to use a fraction of the collection. Even when playing apocalypse it'll be a stretch to get them all on the table. And he doesn't even like that the gun is now AP3.
> 
> He still walked into the store and bought the codex, simply because playing with half his collection was better to him than playing with none of it.


You do realize GW is in this to sell plastic crack right? They purposely invalidate older models so their customers are forced to buy new kits. Blaming this on dex writers is silly. They are told to push the new shiny models. To do this they write rules that encourage this. Just ask old school SW about the SW Leman Russ.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Serpion5 said:


> Ah, this reminds me of how I started the hobby in the first place. Ahh, nostalgia. :smoke:


Yeh I was just the same.

Bright eyed young kid, then one day this shady neckbeard go "Hey bub, you want some fun" , then before you know it I'm holding up a corner shop to get money for mini's


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

Protoss119 said:


> Why is Matt Ward so detested? Fluff-wise, I came to the following conclusions. I cannot speak for all who dislike Matt Ward and furthermore, I admit that I am biased against Matt Ward myself:
> *
> Flat Characters*
> 
> ...


Exactly. But this has been well known in the fanbase. And even with people like below who call other people "fucktards." I'm sure they know stuff like that and wonder why people just hate Matt Ward.



Magpie_Oz said:


> Well at last. I have been asking for something like this from the Ward hater fucktards for quite sometime, well done Protoss! 15 months this has taken.
> 
> Reasoned argument is a great thing and you set yourself apart from the general melange because of it.
> 
> ...


Thats funny that you just realize all this information now. I will confess the man above has stated his position very well, but you genuinely are blind to why people dislike Matt Ward. THE EVIDENCE WAS THERE FROM DAY ONE! With interesting new models in Grey Knights Codex, along with a bunch of overpowerness. The Ultramarines were stroked and your pretending this is the first time its come up. I've been on less than you, but my memory serves me correctly. 

Could you seriously not see how especially favoring... so openly... one chapter destroys what GW is all about? The way he wrote it was so disgusting, and you literally just sit there and say you don't understand why people think the way they do. If I understand your position is it not fair that you at least see where the opposite side comes from before you act so hasty? Even if they are so blind as you think they are, there is no reason to be so harsh with people who disagree with you. Especially when you know their are legitimate reasons why Matt Ward could become a problem. He so openly likes the blood angels, necrons, and ultramarines. They so happen to be written fluff and/or rule wise much greater. Draigo carving his damn name in a Daemon Prince Primarch's heart. The Necrons basically being the greatest race in the galaxy and in the game. They ripped apart C'tan into shards... with some unbelievable weapon and can essentially activate them like pokemon. You are fricken kidding me dude! I'm not going to be a dick like you and start calling you names and what not. But seriously! You got some nerve to think there is no logical reasoning in this debate but to spread our butt cheeks wide and just agree that Matt Ward is the savior of GW.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Looks around. Hmmmmm nope GW is still here..... guess Ward isn't the Antichrist after all....


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

TRU3 CHAOS said:


> Could you seriously not see how especially favoring... so openly... one chapter destroys what GW is all about?


Giving a shit is the trick.


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## LTP (Apr 15, 2009)

Who's Matt Ward?  sorry couldn't resist


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

LTP said:


> Who's Matt Ward?


The Anti-Christ by all accounts..... :laugh:


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Tawa said:


> The Anti-Christ by all accounts..... :laugh:


Thought he was the leader of Al-Qaida. Or was that Cruddace?


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## LTP (Apr 15, 2009)

Tawa said:


> The Anti-Christ by all accounts..... :laugh:


Apparently so haha.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

TRU3 CHAOS said:


> I'm not going to be a dick like you and start calling you names and what not.


 


This debate is getting much more serious than it should. But just think, it could always get worse. 

If I had written these things Draigo would have pissed his name onto Mortarion's forehead with his corrosive pee.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

LTP said:


> Apparently so haha.


I once saw a picture of him, and he had red eyes......



AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH said:


> Thought he was the leader of Al-Qaida. Or was that Cruddace?


No, that's Tony Blair you're thinking of......


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Matt Ward is a rules writer and his rules are fine, he didn't even write the most powerful codex in 5th. He's written a series of pretty good ones and I hope they either make him write them all of group write the rest of them. I could go into specific examples but the Grey Knights is an example of a good codex as there are lots of viable armies out of it, Dark Eldar is a bad one as it's degenerate into a single strategy. 

His fluff is just that fluff. It's hyperbolic fiction written for a children's game.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Tawa said:


> I once saw a picture of him, and he had red eyes......
> 
> 
> 
> No, that's Tony Blair you're thinking of......


Oh yes, that's right. My mistake. I just thought we were on that again due to the nature of the debate.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH said:


> Oh yes, that's right. My mistake. I just thought we were on that again due to the nature of the debate.


Apparantly Cruddace was his right-hand man. I haven't got any proof yet though....


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

I hear that Matt Ward was refused entry to the Westboro baptist church congregation because the church couldn't handle the bad press.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> I hear that Matt Ward was refused entry to the Westboro baptist church congregation because the church couldn't handle the bad press.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Nice!


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

<<<Matt Ward is my hero. Even though my genes(eed) comes from a different stock and I will never truly become a Matt Ward, his teachings inspire me to be more like him.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

matt ward killed the emperor. horus is just the scapegoat.


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## notsoevil (Nov 30, 2010)

I don't get the _hate_ for Mat Ward. He's not a very good writer. That's my complaint. He didn't offend me, he's just not good at what he does.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

notsoevil said:


> I don't get the _hate_ for Mat Ward. He's not a very good writer. That's my complaint. He didn't offend me, he's just not good at what he does.


He is good at rules these days. Rocky start. He did write the army book that most agree wreaked 7th edition fantasy and also the worst army book of 7th. On the other hand, he has written some solid/almost too strong 40k books. ie grey knights/necrons. However that was a known power creep issue in 5th. 6th so far looks like that may be changing.

Honestly, if I dislike anyone, I dislike the tyranid guy That guy cant write decent rules at all and the fluff was... pretty bad.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

So people say that Ward rights OP codecies, he isn't the only one, evidence? Look at the new DA codex.

So CSM marines - 14pts, DA TActicals 14pts, but get Combat Tactics, Stubborn, ATSKNF, the option to purchase one 12" bubbles of CA or FnP or 2/4 Salvo, free seargeants (whereas chaos have to pay for them and can't not have one, then are forced challenge as soon as someone looks at them funny), get terminators as troops with underslung plasma-cannons. An once per game there knights in shinig deathwing armour kill everything they touch in combat.

And WArd writes OP codecies you say?

EDIT: Oh and terminators can split fire too...


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## LTKage (May 2, 2012)

lokis222 said:


> Honestly, if I dislike anyone, I dislike the tyranid guy That guy cant write decent rules at all and the fluff was... pretty bad.


Robin Cruddace, the guy who also wrote Codex: Imperial Guard? I am surprised that he is comparatively under the radar given how much people love/hate Tyranids/Imperial Guard.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

falcoso said:


> So people say that Ward rights OP codecies, he isn't the only one, evidence? Look at the new DA codex.
> 
> So CSM marines - 14pts, DA TActicals 14pts, but get Combat Tactics, Stubborn, ATSKNF, the option to purchase one 12" bubbles of CA or FnP or 2/4 Salvo, free seargeants (whereas chaos have to pay for them and can't not have one, then are forced challenge as soon as someone looks at them funny), get terminators as troops with underslung plasma-cannons. An once per game there knights in shinig deathwing armour kill everything they touch in combat.
> 
> ...


You forgot that almost all the Marines get free SGTs outside of CSM, DA have to pay to get a Ld boost with Vet SGTs, their plasma still overheats, terminators still start at 40 points a pop, and those banners can be killed just like icons (and have different ranges, the Salvo one only works in 6" for example). Additionally the Stubborn Marines can never elect to break combat voluntarily (something that they'd be able to do with the normal Marine rules).

And the Terminators can't combat squad.

OP is all in the eye of the beholder....


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

He writes good rules, but sometimes goes a little OTT and the rest of the Dev team doesn't catch it due to lack of real playtesting, poor rules interactions and so on. This spawns bastard children like Psyflemen, Coteaz et al who should never have made it into print in the shape that they did. Apart from these red-headed stepchildren, he writes good codices with several viable builds that are competitive.

He can't write fluff for shit. It's just awful. Even for padding out a codex (the parts that no-one reads more than once) it's terrible.

So provided you kept him away from the fluff so he can stop embarassing himself, and had someone stand over him with a stick to hit him with when he tries to push through one of his more stupidly OP units, I'd happily let him write every codex.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

Arcane said:


> I can't blame the company for trying to sell models but I can blame them for not finding a better way to do it than Str 10 auto hit deathrays, >95 point armor 13 skimmers, *basic troops that can easily pelt Landraiders to death*, unlimited wound power claws, flying Landraiders, *Feel no Pain on everything*, Scouting Landraiders... the list goes on and on...


Sorry to pick out like this, but I defend Ward's rules writing. You can't say the new Necron book has overpowered Warriors with new abilities to sell them, it's ridiculous. Firstly, they're not new models. Secondly, they've had the Gauss and We'll Be Back abilities for years. It's not some new gimmick, it's part of their whole army feel.

My only regret is that Ward murdered the rest of the army feel by grabbing them by the balls and stuffing them up his Tessarect...


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

What I find funny is in this thread alone you find bitches and complaints about pretty much every codex writer since the start of 5th. Add in the Problems with CSM thread and you have them all and many of those bitching are the same in both threads. So what it boils down to is these unhappy with the game wish it was still 4th ed or earlier. 

My response is grow up, the game has changed, and since these guys have been around for a full edition cycle accept they are here till they decide otherwise. If that is too much for you to handle then sell your plastic crack and find some other hobby to bitch and moan about the Golden Days were better.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Sethis said:


> He writes good rules, but sometimes goes a little OTT and the rest of the Dev team doesn't catch it due to lack of real playtesting, poor rules interactions and so on. This spawns bastard children like Psyflemen, Coteaz et al who should never have made it into print in the shape that they did. Apart from these red-headed stepchildren, he writes good codices with several viable builds that are competitive.
> 
> He can't write fluff for shit. It's just awful. Even for padding out a codex (the parts that no-one reads more than once) it's terrible.
> 
> So provided you kept him away from the fluff so he can stop embarassing himself, and had someone stand over him with a stick to hit him with when he tries to push through one of his more stupidly OP units, I'd happily let him write every codex.


I'm going to quote Silvertabby from another thread regarding fluff:



SilverTabby said:


> If you have a problem with the fluff in the codeces, write those letters to Alan Merritt. He approves all things fluff-based. He's the one "letting them".


Ward isn't the one to blame for this stuff making it to print, nor is Kelly, or Cruddace, it's Merritt. He's the one with the final say so on this stuff and is letting the sillier shit through (or even directing it).


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I fully support Matt Ward's Fluff.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> I fully support Matt Ward's Fluff.


Suddenly I want a poster that says "I Believe in Matt Ward".


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> I fully support Matt Ward's Fluff.


looks at serpion5 avatar.... looks at sentence. 

"sure you do."


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Was actually completely serious. 

Viewed in its own context and judged on its own merit without clinging too tightly to older editions, I don't see a thing wrong with it.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

... nope, not buying it. He's definitely not serious. :laugh:


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Zion said:


> You forgot that almost all the Marines get free SGTs outside of CSM
> 
> I always assumed they were the same as CSM in that context until the new dex, my bad
> 
> ...


To be honest what you say is sound, but it stills seems like a pretty powerful dex


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

If only we could Jervis Johnson back as a lead codex writer everything would be much better....oh wait, shit! Ignore that.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Zion said:


> and those banners can be killed just like icons (and have different ranges, the Salvo one only works in 6" for example). Additionally the Stubborn Marines can never elect to break combat voluntarily (something that they'd be able to do with the normal Marine rules).


If you take Melta Bombs, there's nothing in the game that Dark Angels could run away from voluntarily anyway, so it's a moot point. Space Marines pay 2pts and lose Stubborn to pay for that privilege, and it's a hugely powerful rule so it makes sense Dark Angels can't do it at 14 frickin points each.



Zion said:


> And the Terminators can't combat squad.


But you can take 55 spread across 11 units anyway, so unlike Vanilla there's no real need to Combat Squad.

Midnight


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## Septok (Jan 21, 2012)

I am going to say I dislike Mat Ward. His fluff is a bit on the stupid side - GK, who are supposed to be immune to temptation by chaos, slaughtering loads of incorruptible SOB to bathe in their blood to increase their incorruptibleness. Anyone can see how that's just stupid. I dislike his fluff, mostly.

However, I do like how the new Necron stuff has gone. Cool as the 'emotionless servants to evil star gods' thing was, I do like the characterisation now present in the upper echelons, as it makes the armies freer and puts politics forwards in the fluff. 

The flyers and Wraiths are all kinds of competitive, and that's how Ward writes - to create competitive books. Phil Kelly is obviously superior to others when it comes to codex writing, but he writes for balance and flavour. The CSM book wouldn't be as bad if not for Mutilators and the power creep that's setting in, the power creep due to Ward. 

However, if I were hitting the tournament scene, I would field a Ward army (assuming I didn't play one in the first place). You get several very competitive builds, some overly powerful stuff and some stupid stuff. Necron Flyer Wing armies are going to die out. Very few armies have no flyer support and that's soon to be rectified. Of course, in the end, you can't win just because of the army. If you don't care about the army, as we all know, the army won't care about you. The dice have powers and they don't like everyone - you need skill and luck to win, end of. But the army helps.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Septok said:


> I am going to say I dislike Mat Ward. His fluff is a bit on the stupid side - GK, who are supposed to be immune to temptation by chaos, slaughtering loads of incorruptible SOB to bathe in their blood to increase their incorruptibleness. Anyone can see how that's just stupid. I dislike his fluff, mostly.
> 
> However, I do like how the new Necron stuff has gone. Cool as the 'emotionless servants to evil star gods' thing was, I do like the characterisation now present in the upper echelons, as it makes the armies freer and puts politics forwards in the fluff.
> 
> ...


Which is why Phil Kelly has written 2 of the worst codexes ruleswise in 5th? Dark Eldar and mono-build with horrifc spam and Space Wolves are the most powerful army in 5th as shown by tourney results. Phil Kelly has written far far worse book than Ward. I have no idea why he gets away with it, why does Kelly get a pass?


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> If you take Melta Bombs, there's nothing in the game that Dark Angels could run away from voluntarily anyway, so it's a moot point. Space Marines pay 2pts and lose Stubborn to pay for that privilege, and it's a hugely powerful rule so it makes sense Dark Angels can't do it at 14 frickin points each.


Vanilla Marines are also generally overpriced compared to their Specialist Breathren across the board so this isn't DA's fault. 

Choosing to break (Combat Tactics) and knowing you can't be swept has actually been a long standing strength of the Vanilla Marine Codex, DA go a different way and only break if their morale dips too low. I'm not saying is a 1:1 but I don't think it's particularly broken.




MidnightSun said:


> But you can take 55 spread across 11 units anyway, so unlike Vanilla there's no real need to Combat Squad.
> Midnight


I don't have a codex in front of me so I can't sit here and work out the exact math for what you can bring and how much it'll run you, but Combat Squads has been a way for Vanilla Marines to add some much needed Objective holding on a whim. For DW Termis to not get it that means you can't turn 6 Termi Squads into 12 just to hold the board better. I think that's a good bit of balancing there, but that's just me looking at it without having played against it yet.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> ... nope, not buying it. He's definitely not serious. :laugh:



:scratchhead: Why wouldn't I be?


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> :scratchhead: Why wouldn't I be?


I think they assume that your avatar sets the tone for the post?


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> :scratchhead: Why wouldn't I be?


Get the list! :laugh:


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

They think you're not serious because saying "Nothing wrong with Matt's fluff" is akin to saying "George Bush planned the 9/11 attacks himself".

Which is obviously ridiculous. The man couldn't plan his way out of a straight corridor with flashing signs pointing to the exit.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Sethis said:


> They think you're not serious because saying "Nothing wrong with Matt's fluff" is akin to saying "George Bush planned the 9/11 attacks himself".
> 
> Which is obviously ridiculous. The man couldn't plan his way out of a straight corridor with flashing signs pointing to the exit.


At the risk of repeating the entire thread, you have nothing to back that up other than opinion and wrongly construed responsibility for the creative decisions in the works he has produced.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Thing is, there is nothing wrong with his fluff. It is over the top scifi action writing. It is also something that can be altered and changed anyway you see fit. The company even promotes this. He writes rule books, fluff is like the sprigs of parsley on plate of food you ordered. It is there to pretty up the plate, and that is it.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> :scratchhead: Why wouldn't I be?





Zion said:


> I think they assume that your avatar sets the tone for the post?


i am just teasing him. 

but it is hard to take a post seriously in any debate thread with that avatar....


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Sethis said:


> They think you're not serious because saying "Nothing wrong with Matt's fluff" is akin to saying "George Bush planned the 9/11 attacks himself".


Oh pardon me. So now my opinions are the likes of retarded conspiracy theories? That's nice to know.



lokis222 said:


> but it is hard to take a post seriously in any debate thread with that avatar...


Also good to know.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> :scratchhead: Why wouldn't I be?


I suppose I didn't believe that you would support fluff which at least partially retcons fluff you yourself have written, based off of the old fluff. That fact, combined with the "I'm totally serious" (which often implies a neat display of sarcasm), made me somewhat sceptical.

Not sure I was thinking about George Bush and blinking lights in corridors, though. 

Mat Ward also killed Shadow, to add to his tally.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Ward's fluff is so bad he has Grey Knights heading to a planet to kill a Daemon they forsaw awakening, lose a bunch of Grey Knights, kill the Daemon, then blow up the planet anyways! Why not just blow it up to begin with? It's not bad ass enough?

I bet Ward makes his bed before getting into it at night and styles his hair before visiting the Barbershop.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Arcane said:


> I bet Ward makes his bed before getting into it at night and styles his hair before visiting the Barbershop.


You mean that's not normal....? :blush:


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Arcane said:


> Ward's fluff is so bad he has Grey Knights heading to a planet to kill a Daemon they forsaw awakening, lose a bunch of Grey Knights, kill the Daemon, then blow up the planet anyways! Why not just blow it up to begin with? It's not bad ass enough?
> 
> I bet Ward makes his bed before getting into it at night and styles his hair before visiting the Barbershop.


Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Crump !
Large clouds of smoke and dust ...........

Says the Inquisitor, "Did we get the Daemon?"
Justicar, "I dunno"
"Could he have escaped?" 
"Yeh maybe"
"So go down and find out"
"Piss off! What about all the viruses and shit?"
"Oh yeh, bugger."
"How about NEXT time we drop in first, then you can 'cleanse' "
"Yeh righto, I'll let Mr Ward know"


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> Mat Ward also killed Shadow, to add to his tally.


Bogus, necrons lords can change their bodies to whatever they want. 

Also, when the time came I was just gonna write that wraiths were based off HIS design. 

Simple fix Darvy.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Crump !
> Large clouds of smoke and dust ...........
> 
> Says the Inquisitor, "Did we get the Daemon?"
> ...


The Daemon was specificly banished, his heart pierced by the thigh bone of a Brother Captain. The Daemon army was even destroyed when he was banished as a result of the diminish in warp energy....

So they killed all the Daemons. They were literally all dead... no one got away. Why Exterminatus the planet? Because Ward loves hyperbole!

Is it really necessary to go through his entire literary works on a case by case basis to prove how stupid and poorly written his fluff is?


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

So this is now a full on Ward hate thread and should be closed again?


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Arcane said:


> Is it really necessary to go through his entire literary works on a case by case basis to prove how stupid and poorly written his fluff is?


Because it does not extend beyond your opinion on it, yes you do.
For every "oooo ward's a fucktard" I can give you a reason why not.
Opinions are like that.

Yes locking the thread would make the best contribution I think


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## LTKage (May 2, 2012)

Pretty indifferent to Ward. He did create a monster with Necron flyer spam and maybe the Necron Overlord but I expect that flyer spam was missed during play testing. Some of his fluff needs work but it seems like he's a crunch guy. Crudance probably deserve more "hate" for Codex: Imperial Guard and Codex: Tyranids.

Besides, Matt Ward has written 4 of the fifteen codices. No one complains about the Space Marine or Blood Angels codices from a game play standpoint.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Because it does not extend beyond your opinion on it, yes you do.
> For every "oooo ward's a fucktard" I can give you a reason why not.
> Opinions are like that.
> 
> Yes locking the thread would make the best contribution I think


You're right, it's really not worth arguing over. If you enjoy his stuff that's great. I bought the codex because otherwise I would have had a bunch of pointless pewter Daemonhunter models I couldn't play with. As scofield would say, GW isn't going to can him because some people don't like his work...


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Just an FYI - I've already given my opinion on Ward in this thread. I was providing a possible explanation why you, Serpion, were attracting a lot of "yeah, rights!". It's not necessarily something I believe.

The Bush thing is something I do believe though, but what the hell.

/Break over

Carry on flaming. k:


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Sethis said:


> Just an FYI - I've already given my opinion on Ward in this thread. I was providing a possible explanation why you, Serpion, were attracting a lot of "yeah, rights!". It's not necessarily something I believe.
> 
> The Bush thing is something I do believe though, but what the hell.
> 
> ...


Probably should have just made light of the situation. :laugh: 

But it's fine, no grudges. Even so I don't think I'll be weighing in too much more with this debate. It's been done to death repeated times before. 

And I'm not allowed to flame or Jez takes away my plushie hammer.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> And I'm not allowed to flame or Jez takes away my plushie hammer.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Tawa said:


>


I'm taking this. :shok:


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

This thread has descended into pointless Ward bashing so I think its fair to say it has run its course. Anyone who would like to continue the pointless Ward bashing can do it somewhere else.

Locked.


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