# Taking advantage of Black Templars



## rcm2216 (Feb 22, 2008)

How do you take advantage of the Black Templar Space Marines using the vow "Accept any Challenge no Matter the Odds" rule?


How does the "Accept any Challenge no Matter the Odds" rule vow work. Do the Space Marines have to chase the closest unit regardless if it is in reach? I have never had the codex but I was aware that something unique happened.


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## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

To take advantage of black templars:

1.Buy them a stiff drink.
2.Repeat #1.
3.Ask them about distributing Gene-seed.

no, the rule is that they must assault if they are within assault range. This isn't a very big disadvantage since it is almost always to your advantage to assault if you are in assault range. 

The best way to take advantage of this is to use it to move them off of objectives late game.


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## Heartsclaw (May 12, 2008)

Another thing you can take advantage of is the Righteous Zeal ability that BT have. Basically if they take a shooting casualty, and pass a Morale(?) test and pass they move d6" towards the closest enemy unit. Reading the rules closely that is "up to" so they don't have to take the full move, but it will still force them to move. If they have a Chaplain in squad, they can move that d6 any direction they want.


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## kungfoomasta (May 8, 2008)

the way to take adantage of BT is to pull them into sometrhing they cant win... say a unit of genestealers? khorne termi lord? ect. pull the weaker units and focus main fire on the things that you would take major losses killiing in cc like cc termies or his marshall or champion.


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## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

but if your dedicated CC units are close enough to pull BT units into combat, you might as well charge with your CC unit, so this isn't really a useful tactic. I suppose the one exception would be deepstriking CC units.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Heartsclaw said:


> Another thing you can take advantage of is the Righteous Zeal ability that BT have. Basically if they take a shooting casualty, and pass a Morale(?) test and pass they move d6" towards the closest enemy unit. Reading the rules closely that is "up to" so they don't have to take the full move, but it will still force them to move. If they have a Chaplain in squad, they can move that d6 any direction they want.


They can literally blow on the figurines and say "They moved"

If you're trying to beat a templar player, take potshots first turn into each individual squad, eventually one will run right off the table.


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## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

How do you intend to get them to run off the table? Their Zeal move is in the direction of the enemy, not their board edge. 

This is another rule that isn't easy to use to your advantage. Forcing squads with heavy weapons to move is the only thing really, but BT armies typically don't have static infantry mounted heavy weapons as a defining feature.


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## Trevor Drake (Oct 25, 2008)

Pauly55 said:


> How do you intend to get them to run off the table? Their Zeal move is in the direction of the enemy, not their board edge.
> 
> This is another rule that isn't easy to use to your advantage. Forcing squads with heavy weapons to move is the only thing really, but BT armies typically don't have static infantry mounted heavy weapons as a defining feature.



Because there is still a chance, albeit slim, that the BT player will fail his Ld/Morale and run, as their Zeal move requires them to pass in order to go off.

-Trevor D


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## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

Yeah but chances are they will pass the test, and move forward. If you make a squad take 6 checks over a game, they might fail 2? It's still a net gain of movement away from the board edge. I really don't see the "shoot them so they run off the table" tactic a viable anti BT tactic.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Pauly55 said:


> Yeah but chances are they will pass the test, and move forward. If you make a squad take 6 checks over a game, they might fail 2? It's still a net gain of movement away from the board edge. I really don't see the "shoot them so they run off the table" tactic a viable anti BT tactic.


The average templar swarm list has about four to six squads running around, they all SHOULD be leadership 10 with the accompanying marshall.
Each one will easily lose one neophyte in your first shooting phase(Squads are too big to contort otherwise)
Each one is required to pass a leadership test or fall back 2d6.

So with 5/6 chances being a pass and 1/6 chances being a fail(roughly), how grand would it be to just take a lucky potshot and net yourself an instant 235 points of templar cowardice?

And you can't MAKE them move towards you. When a move says "up to" it means fraction of a millionth. They don't move. Whereas if they squad broken, they have to run away quite a far distance. All it takes is one lucky roll, you'd be stupid not to try and run them off early.


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## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

uhh it still doesn't work quite like that. Sure you might get one squad to fall back, but chances are they wont fall back far enough in one turn to go off the table edge. 

I realize full well that you can't MAKE them move, but the thing is, why would you in your right mind want to spread out your fire and give basically his whole army a free move in your direction? You don't. 

If I was the BT player, I would LOVE for you to spread out your fire and give me free movement. Movement in your turn. Movement that I can still fire a heavy weapon after taking. The zeal special rule is an ADVANTAGE to the army, so its best if you let them use it as little as possible.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Pauly55 said:


> uhh it still doesn't work quite like that. Sure you might get one squad to fall back, but chances are they wont fall back far enough in one turn to go off the table edge.
> 
> I realize full well that you can't MAKE them move, but the thing is, why would you in your right mind want to spread out your fire and give basically his whole army a free move in your direction? You don't.
> 
> If I was the BT player, I would LOVE for you to spread out your fire and give me free movement. Movement in your turn. Movement that I can still fire a heavy weapon after taking. The zeal special rule is an ADVANTAGE to the army, so its best if you let them use it as little as possible.


Actually with usually only twelve inches to deploy in, and that many templar, one squad is going to HAVE to hang back if they want any semblance of a balanced deployment. If one squad falls back that is VERY BAD as it kills an entire turn of movement, or takes them right off the edge of the table(In which case it's gg)

Why do your templar have heavy weapons? And honestly, play templar, see how gungho you are when you have to take "Pass or die" leadership tests every single turn, it gets extremely worrisome when your squads can just bail 12 inches and run screaming off the table.

Essentially, what you're doing is shooting marines. Sure, most will pass, but the one that doesn't is the one you're aiming for. By your logic, why waste shooting lasguns at anything? They probably will survive.


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## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

I do play black templars on a tournament level. 

By my logic you Focus fire, just like you do against almost every army. If for some asinine reason your BT opponent is using a footslogging melee army, under no circumstances should you spread your fire out giving the majority of his units a free movement. He will be in combat by turn 2 if you try this since he can run as well now. If you focus on one unit, he wont want to take the free move since that would do nothing but break up his assault. 

5e assault armies are about having your squads assault all at the same time. Since there is no more rolling from unit to unit, you have to coordinate this. Orks are really good here because of waagh. Templars have the free zeal move for this.

for your tactic of spread out fire to make them run off the table to work you need the following conditions:
1. Deployment zones of 12" or less.
2. No intervening difficult terrain between templar foot troops and their board edge.
3. LOS with enough firepower to drop one model in every templar squad.
4. First turn.

If any one of those conditions is not met, you are out of luck, and even if they are, the player still has to roll a high enough fall back on one of the squads which isn't lined up on the deployment zone edge.

I referenced the heavy weapons just to point out how good this free move is for the BT player. 

Zeal is an advantage for the templar player. You want to prevent them from utilizing it. 

At the end of the day, you are going to see more and more BT players going back to the vehicular assaults that were OP in 3rd ed. 2-3 Crusaders with full squads in there. Rhinos are terrible since BT pay extra for them, likewise with razorbacks.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Pauly55 said:


> I do play black templars on a tournament level.


Ah I misread "If I was the BT player" as "I don't play BT but will guess anyway". 



Pauly55 said:


> By my logic you Focus fire, just like you do against almost every army. If for some asinine reason your BT opponent is using a footslogging melee army, under no circumstances should you spread your fire out giving the majority of his units a free movement. He will be in combat by turn 2 if you try this since he can run as well now. If you focus on one unit, he wont want to take the free move since that would do nothing but break up his assault.


This is assuming they take just fifteen man squads that are all equal in number. I'm confused how getting them to run off the board is bad. Usually they'll be in assault by turn three reguardless of your shooting or not, one would think it best to have him run when it meant the most to your force(IE:Off the table).

Also I see nothing wrong with troop-heavy templar. I've yet to get massacred using it, most people complain about the fact that their's "Just too many of them". I laugh at vindicators, I stomp through orks with ease, and aside from a raider full of wyches with their attached ic, not much swamps templar squads. Not to mention you crowd up a decent size of the board with sheer mass.



Pauly55 said:


> 5e assault armies are about having your squads assault all at the same time. Since there is no more rolling from unit to unit, you have to coordinate this. Orks are really good here because of waagh. Templars have the free zeal move for this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

Well, you clearly know what you are talking about waffles, but I think we will have to agree to disagree. I think you are better off focusing fire on one BT squad at a time, where you think it is better to spread it out and force moral checks. 

Certainly there are situations in which both tactics are valid, I just think gunning down one unit is better than plinking a few. 

And yes, BT smoke is ridiculous. 
Too bad chaplains are pointless now that they changed favored enemy.

And in regards to difficult terrain restricting movement, I really dont know if it works for falling back anymore, I know that it doesn't restrict movement if you use the run move though.


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

Units falling back are not slowed by difficult terrain.

Difficult terrian slows units on the advance because they are keeping vigilant of potential threats. Visualize a tactical team advancing - the marines approach the wall with their guns raised, look over the wall before lowering their guns while they vault over. They hit the ground & immediately take up a firing position to cover their squad mates who do the same in turn.

While falling back, they're running for their lives from the percieved threat behind them. This is the only thing on their mind & as such are not considering providing cover support for their unit.


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

Just a side note, I thought marines rallied at the board edge if they are forced to run and reach said board edge due to "And They Shall Know No Fear".


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## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

well they automatically pass rally checks. If they are broken by a morale check from shooting and they roll high enough to run off the table, they are gone. Furthermore if you break a marine squad and "escort them off the table" by keeping one of your units with in 6" you can get them to leave the game.


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

do non C:SM marines all have ATSKNF as well?


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

Yup. It will say so in your codex.


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