# Mono Tzeentch CD vs. GK. MIND=BLOWN.



## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Never have I played this game and felt like I never had a chance of winning before I played a GK list as my Tzeentch CD. Aegis, DS disruption, null rods, draigo, an unrealistic amount of s5 shots...and psycannon spam. Is there ANY hope of beating GK as CD? Have any GK players out there been defeated by CD? I'd love any sort of insight on this, I'm at a total loss.


----------



## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I think Tzeentch CDs are going to search for new tactics against Grey Knights. I can't give you any support, here.


----------



## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

to give a little more insight, I was running fateweaver, LoC, 3 winged DP's with a plethora of magic and 30 horrors, He was doing draigo featuring 10 paladins doing the wound allocation abuse, a few squads of strike squads and 2 dreadknights. More psycannons then I can remeber.

Although this thread is more or less general tactics to gain any kind of advantage against GK as CD, because after that game I don't really have much faith in this matchup at all. The only thing I can even think of is flamer bombing as much as possible before the big guys come in, but with the DS disruption ability even that is almost impossible.


----------



## oblivion8 (Jun 17, 2009)

Taking three squads of flamers would probably help with the Paladins. I am assuming he did not put them in a land raider as they are one squad?
Drop even one squad of flamers (even three flamers) and watch as you get around 15-30 under your templates. 4+ to wound means that 7-15 wounds and a 5+ inv save brings that to 2-5 saved wounds leaving them with 5-10 wounds to allocate. Even using sneaky allocation techniques thats still a few Paladins dead I think. Not to mention that you still have 2 squads of flamers left. 
If you wanted to op for some unpredictability you could try throwing 2-4 boon of mutations at his dreadknights. Its a six needed to take one out on the toughness test but it could be useful.
The Pink horrors are unfortunately not overly useful against power armour, but they are hard to kill with fateweaver around and are relatively good at holding objectives.

Reading your post I realize the GKs have some sort of DS disruption? Could this be overcome with a little luck and an icon? 6" no scatter, or does the GK rule override this? You have to realize that playing a mono tzeentch list can (in a lot of cases) involve lots of luck and praying to the god of change xD


----------



## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

Doesnt really help but I feel like Thousand sons are the best army to beat grey knights.


----------



## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

1k sons =/= Tzeentch Daemons. And the strike squads automatically cause a DS mishap if you DS within 12'....so flamer suicide bombing is literally not possible. They also cause icons to just....not work. It just doesnt seem possible


----------



## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

Ravner298 said:


> 1k sons =/= Tzeentch Daemons. And the strike squads automatically cause a DS mishap if you DS within 12'....so flamer suicide bombing is literally not possible. They also cause icons to just....not work. It just doesnt seem possible



Never said it did. There was a reason why I said It doesnt help.


----------



## BrainFreeze (Oct 9, 2008)

Your not supposed to have a chance, their codex is new they get to auto win against CD


----------



## darklove (May 7, 2008)

GW don't care about Daemons in 40k, they are just supposed to be for WFB apparently. Look at how long it took them to get around to the second wave. Even Necrons beat Chaos Daemons... Seriously, I have been winning against Chaos Daemons by assaulting them with units of Warriors - which is just wrong!


----------



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

darklove said:


> GW don't care about Daemons in 40k, they are just supposed to be for WFB apparently. Look at how long it took them to get around to the second wave. Even Necrons beat Chaos Daemons... Seriously, I have been winning against Chaos Daemons by assaulting them with units of Warriors - which is just wrong!


That's absolute bullcrap.

Look at how long before the Dark Eldar got a new codex and update - GW obviously don't care about them. 

Look at how long before the Tau have gotten any new models and a codex - GW obviously don't care about them.

Look at how long before the Necrons have got new models and a new codex - GW obviously don't care about them 

Finally ... of course you charge into Daemons and win. Hell the other day I charged into 4 units of Grey Knights with a lone Pink Horror and killed all 40 GK's in one round of combat ...:wink:


----------



## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> Never said it did. There was a reason why I said It doesnt help.


Ah, I misunderstood. Yes, I agree with you, 1ksons shred non draigo GK!



> Your not supposed to have a chance, their codex is new they get to auto win against CD


I really refuse to accept that but that's honestly what it seems like.



> Even Necrons beat Chaos Daemons


Well....yeah....destroyer spam and immortals will make short work of any high toughness 'meh' armor save unit.



> Hell the other day I charged into 4 units of Grey Knights with a lone Pink Horror and killed all 40 GK's in one round of combat


I'd believe it. DAC for president.


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Warp Quake isn't scary... and shouldn't stop flamers. Its only really effective at guarding the unit with the power, so big troop units might be a problem, but termy/palladins shouldnt be so hard to kill... personally I would prefer to face Draigo and a pimped Palladin unit then the same points worth strike squads (or NDKs).

It would be a rare game where warp quake screws you over since it would need:
- you to go second, or get the wrong wave first
- no LoS blocking terrain towards the centre of the board
- all enemy units worth bombing to be well within warp quake range
- the enemy to remember to use it, and successfully use it
- the enemy not to get perils of the warp

So the opponent needs to move before your flamers turn up (66% chance) and manage to use Warp Quake (83% chance)... that's a 56% he'll get his DS shield up in time (and 5.6% chance of him killing his justicar doing it, for each squad). Seems a pretty poor defense to me
... and in order to use this defense the GK player needs to have set up and moved his army to have his justicar very close to the Palladins (or other flame worthy unit).


Meanwhile the daemon player isn't that effected- just DS onto other units, at the other edge of the target unit (>12" from justicar, but within 3-4" of target) or just don't suicide bomb. 

If there is central terrain where flamers can escape LoS just shove them behind it, leaving the rest of your army well back from them... GK are mostly range 24" so in order to get into range they'll have to move past the flamers. If they haven't got transports its suicide. Sure a daemon army would be out of range and there isn't going to be much fighting if the GK sits back... but I'll take a draw against GKs with their new rules.


While I'm not scared of warp quake and think flamers are devastating against GK I really can't see anything else that is even half decent against them... and Dark Excommunication (libby/NDK) is just devastating


----------



## oblivion8 (Jun 17, 2009)

Well if you are willing to go outside the tzeetch theme there are a few other things you could try.
Daemonettes, seekers and fiends would do wonders against basic grey knights in combat, lead them with fateweaver and they have a half decent chance of saving some rolls. Assuming you get the charge a unit of 10 daemonettes alone can kill almost half a squad of normal knights. They can even take out half the wounds on a dreadknight on average. 
Bloodletters will have a harder time if they have halaberds but otherwise they kill even more on the charge killing up to and over the entire squad!
I suppose the main thing is getting said units into combat, but if you have fateweaver then the chances of that increase exponentially.
Keep to cover, buy some dedicated combat squads and flamer them to shit all, you should be able to give him a run for his money


----------



## Chaos4reaL (May 6, 2011)

It is doable beating GK, I am 2 for 2 with CDs! Rending and power weapons are key and forget about shooting, does not do enough with their armorsaves. PBs is another unit not disappointing me, ever!, soak shots and hold those objectives. Recently did a Skarbrand a Slaanesh list (check it out on CD army lists) that I think would work really well against GK. As long as the list is set to have higher initiative then GK forces anything with Skarbrand is good. Don´t want to face any assassins with Skarbrand on board! 

Blessing of the blood god is good fun on GK with it´s 2+ saves on psy powers so Khorne is a good choice thou lower or equal initiative hurts them a bit.


----------



## laviathan13089 (Apr 21, 2011)

ok, first of all, the aeigis has no affect on chaos daemon powers, they arent psychic powers, secondly blessing of the blood god gives a 2+ save against psychic powers AND force weapons. so charge a unit of flesh hounds and skarbrand into combat, keep fateweaver nearby so all your 2+ saves re-roll while you power through all of his pathetic paladins, meanwhile you can use fateweaver and your 3 daemon princes (or less in smaller battles) to give the boom of mutation (first goes draigo, second libby's, and third any paladin that hasnt been wounded yet) as they have no defence against it and can fire into assault, you can pick the models affected, and it removes eternal warriors from play. wahahahahahahaha!


----------



## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> and in order to use this defense the GK player needs to have set up and moved his army to have his justicar very close to the Palladins (or other flame worthy unit).


He saw I had flamers and had his units setup in a ball in such a way that the warp quake 'zones' adequately had him covered. These tactics are great for all the units except the tzeentchy ones...maybe I should take the hint!


----------



## laviathan13089 (Apr 21, 2011)

you can still use the fateweaver, a lord of change, 3 daemon princes, and idk as many horrors as you want. just bog him down in cc with the horrors, then fly up with the lord of change/fateweaver/daemon prince units and boon of mutation his 50-75 pt models to death! yeah he has to roll 6's or 5's but when he does it seriously hurts. and 4++ rerollable save is still bitchin hard to kill.

better yet, use 4 heralds on chariots for the extra boons and manuverability.


----------



## oblivion8 (Jun 17, 2009)

If you wanted to stay true to Tzeentch (praise the changer of ways ) Then you could op for taking just that unit of bloodhounds and perhaps a unit of Seekers or something, but convert them into Tzeentch like things and just call them a new Tzeentch unit (using the rules for said units). For instance using chaos warhounds (which as i can remember are mutated a little) as bloodhounds and then painting them accordingly and maybe adding some fucked up bits to them to make it look like they are mutating would probably work. Call em hounds of change or something xD


----------



## SlamHammer (Mar 28, 2011)

CD have Soul Grinders and they punish GK for sitting back and mowing you down as you avoid Warp Quake zones.

As a GK player a simple strategy is to force you into my firing line via Warp Quake and then counter-strike you as you after you are weakened from fire. If you break out of this trap and take the initiative you will do much better vs GK.


----------



## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

weakened doesn't even begin to cover it


----------



## Supersonic Banana (Jul 23, 2010)

From experience skulltaker destroys anything in the greyknight codex apart from Draigo, dreadknights or anyone with dark excommunication. Actually i dont think that dark excommunication would stop him as his ability is a special rule and not a gift. With that in mind he would on struggle with draigo as he is the only dude in te greyknights codex that remembered his eternal warrior.


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Depends on how you read it, he loses his Power Weapon and his Rending Ability. It's just a question of if his ability gives him Rending back again after he loses it.


----------



## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Aramoro said:


> Depends on how you read it, he loses his Power Weapon and his Rending Ability. It's just a question of if his ability gives him Rending back again after he loses it.


dark excom denies his power weapon? I didn't know hellblades were a demonic gift.


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Ravner298 said:


> dark excom denies his power weapon? I didn't know hellblades were a demonic gift.


Yup, Saws off his Power Weapon and Hilariously his mount if he has one as they are listed in the Daemonic Gifts section of the Codex. He loses his Armour, Rending and Psychic Protection as well bizarrely enough. 

The Blue Scribes get it worse though, they lose all 8 of their Gifts.


----------



## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Aramoro said:


> Yup, Saws off his Power Weapon and Hilariously his mount if he has one as they are listed in the Daemonic Gifts section of the Codex. He loses his Armour, Rending and Psychic Protection as well bizarrely enough.
> 
> The Blue Scribes get it worse though, they lose all 8 of their Gifts.


That's absolute robbery. Why would any CD willingly play against GK?


----------



## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

For the Challenge of beating a codex where it's slanted in the enemy's favor. Bragging rights. Tournament pairings.


----------



## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

slanted? GK player losing to CD would be nothing short of humiliation.


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Khorne and Slaanesh are totally buggered by dark excom- they lose their power weapons and rending ability... which is what they rely on. Tzeentch is less badly off then others, but masses of range 24" S5 shooting should end them pretty soon anyway.

I was trying to challenge the local GK players with my daemons... but couldnt get a game sorted. I was viewing it as 'ultimate challenge'. Would have been a great one to win.


----------



## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Tim/Steve said:


> Khorne and Slaanesh are totally buggered by dark excom- they lose their power weapons and rending ability... which is what they rely on. Tzeentch is less badly off then others, but masses of range 24" S5 shooting should end them pretty soon anyway.
> 
> I was trying to challenge the local GK players with my daemons... but couldnt get a game sorted. I was viewing it as 'ultimate challenge'. Would have been a great one to win.


by all means let us know how you fare, maybe hide until the last turn or two and draw it by objectives!


----------



## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

A draw can hardly be counted as a win... well, except as a moral one I guess


----------



## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Shandathe said:


> A draw can hardly be counted as a win... well, except as a moral one I guess


If a toddler 1v1s Lebron james and holds the score 0-0, I"m pretty sure that toddler is crawling away saying to himself he won.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

:laugh: Im sorry but reading C:CD getting spank so much harder than my CSMs by GKs make me glad I kept to the Chaos Gods true favored servants. I always hated the fact that Daemons was taken away. As their own Dex they suck hard against GKs with nothing effective. CSM starting to feel the sting, mainly with Oblits and DPs. At least my PMs and Zerkers keep their benefits . My suggestion? Save up for a newer dex and army. My IG I started make me so happy when I face those 5th edition Dexes. Otherwise dont play expecting to win.


----------



## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

I'm not worried, when chaos gets a nex dex sometime early next year (crossing fingers) the gaming community will be crying foul, as they always have.


----------

