# Cheeseheads.



## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

Have you guys ever played somebody really cheesy? The I-can-see-the-banner-so-I-can-shoot-you people. The Twelve-Wraithlords-it's-legal people? The I'm-right-you're-not people?

I had a pretty good laugh about one today. This kid, named Austin...he's been playing for a good eight years up at my GW, and he plays randomly splotched Marines. It looks like this guy DIPS the models in the paint....like....blobs of paint are on the Space Marines.

So anyway, he leans down and declares shooting on my Command team. I notice there's a rock in the way. I walk over, lean over, and notice the only thing he can see is the Chapter Banner! He gets angry with me when I refuse to take casualties from him shooting a piece of fabric, so he goes up to the manager and asks him about it, and the manager simply says "No."

Austin replies "You're wrong."

I shared a good laugh with the manager after this, who assured me that I was right in the first place.

Share any cheese stories here!
-Dirge


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

I don't know the kid, but it's entirely possible that he just doesn't really understand the rules. It's not cheese (in the conventional sense of the word, at any rate) to not know the rules for line of sight... it's just not knowing a rather important rule. If he could draw line of sight to the model's BASE, then he could shoot it, technically, even if it is just a little sliver. I think for the sake of the game making sense, I wouldn't do that, even if I could, but the point is that you can if the BASE is in line of sight.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

We had a tournament here at the local GW with 300 bucks worth of stuff up for grabs. 1000pts, 4x4 tables. Dude brought a Black Legion list with, count 'em, 17 heavy weapons. 17 hweapons in 1000pts. Considering that the tables had next to no terrain on them, no one stood a chance. Hell, a friend of mine plays nids and never once got across the table and into cc. Pure, unadulterated cheese imho.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

And no doubt he hasn't had a game since.

Heard about a game that a freind played where the other played very nearly refused to allow him to use his army because it was 'counts as'. My mate had done up a hard core Radical =I= force and was using some very nice conversion peices based around Possessed SM's to represent GK's. They were armed with deamon axes and had fire sculpted onto the fists to represent the wargear. This guy had put hours into the army both the back story and the actual painting time.

And the other player refused becuase they didn't look like GK's. He is army was the most bland thing you had ever seen. Not a single conversion peice amounst them. All his SM's looked straight out of the box. 

Eventually he relented when the Staff Member basically told him he was being a prat and that there was nothing wrong with the mini's. That and everybody was giving him the impression that if he didn't change his mind he wouldn't ever have a game again.

My mate's actually sold the army now and he hasn't seen the prick in a good six months thank god.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

The Wraithlord said:


> We had a tournament here at the local GW with 300 bucks worth of stuff up for grabs. 1000pts, 4x4 tables. Dude brought a Black Legion list with, count 'em, 17 heavy weapons. 17 hweapons in 1000pts. Considering that the tables had next to no terrain on them, no one stood a chance. Hell, a friend of mine plays nids and never once got across the table and into cc. Pure, unadulterated cheese imho.


I hate to defend these people, but I just like to consider their justifications, because they're not entirely unreasonable. If there's 300 bucks' worth of product up for grabs, that's a good chunk of a 2000-point army. Our hobby is expensive-- and a penny saved is a Space Marine earned in a lot of minds, my own included. The unfortunate truth of tournaments is that they're not necessarily fun in the way that a pickup game or one that you have with your friends is meant to be-- it's a competition, and while the games have the potential to be fun, it's not ultimately why anyone's there. Just for my own reference so I had an idea of what you were talking about, I made up an army list with the current Chaos Space Marine codex that has 18 heavy weapons (and a kai gun, if you care to factor that in, since it has a pretty similar effect) for 1000 points, and I can certainly see how unstoppable that probably would be in open terrain. I don't applaud the guy for playing that kind of army-- it ruins the game for everyone else-- but I think it's good to understand his motivations.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

I must admit, if i was entering a tournament, and especially if there was a prize, then i would probably do the same, or at least i would take an army designed to give me the best chance at winning. I find that many "local" tournaments get the reaction of "that guy only because he had the cheesiest army". In fact Jez and I entered a Tournament at one of the local GW's and it created quite a stir as people felt we had cheesey lists. I was talking to the store manager who said he thought it was great as his vets were so set in there ways.
Similarly Cheese/beard is a matter of perspective, If your playing against orks and you take the traits that give you 6 dev squads and give them all 4 heavy bolters then that may be a little harsh. Use that same list against a mechanised marine list and its not really going to do very well.

I think if someone makes a list to play against anyone, then thats cool regardless of whats in it to a certain extent, as there is going to be a list out there that can beat it. If someone makes a list Just to face a specific army and then won't play others with it then thats pretty beardy


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

I like to build balanced, take all comers lists. I find that they are more enjoyable to both use and play against.


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

I do the same Wraithlord...

In the last tourney I ran, I brought the same list I have been using for over 3 years against all comers just in the case it was needed. This is a mixed IG army that uses many infantry, a few tanks, and no lascannons or bassies. It turned out, that I would indeed have to play a ringer army. The cries of cheese I had to endure were just outrageous. The ringer army tied for 1st place in the tourney. I tried to explain to people where the army's weaknesses were, but so many armies present were unable to cope because they had specialized thier lists to the point where there was virtually no tactical flexibility on their end. That tourney had 3 games, and 2 of those games resulted in the opponent picking up every one of their own models before turn 5. The last was a minor loss because I had simply stopped playing on turn 3.

During a tourney, you play to win. Generally speaking, a balanced army has a much better chance to win than an overly specialized list. If your opponents have a gripe, go ahead and let them know all the mistakes that they made and which contributed to their downfall. They may not like it, but you'ld be doing them a favor.

I'm running another tourney in October, and people are already complaining about the possible ringer army. My response: FEAR THE RINGER!


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## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

Whats a ringer army?


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

1. ringer 

Any type of contestant in a game who is entered in order to cheat. For example, a professional bowler who plays in an amateur bowling match.

You lost because you were up against a ringer.


Alternatively it could be the largest gathering of homosexual wargaming figures you've ever seen...


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Heh. Nice.

Funny how locally, we call the ringer the guy who fills the odd number slot for the tournaments so no one sits out a round... 

I've been meaning to post about this, and now seems a good time. I don't believe in cheese. I believe in fluff, and I wouldn't call it cheesy to have an army that blatantly violates the fluff... I'd just consider it stupid and pointless from the perspective of the storyline. Cheese is, ultimately, what you're afraid of, or think you can't beat. The simple truth of the matter is that while there are a lot of "killer combos" out there that are considered cheesy, the challenge lies in beating them. And if you do beat them, then the people who think they need to rely on that sort of thing instead of sound tactics may eventually realize that this isn't a card game like Magic-- you can't just build the army to win, you have to lead it well when it's on the table. If someone can't do that and has to resort to the lamer things available to their army, then that's their own flaw-- and there are ways to exploit that flaw in the game. For example, someone who runs nothing but pure "cheese" may think they need to in order to win-- which would imply they're not confident in their own abilities. You can predict what they'll do because of that, and act accordingly. Daemon bomb? No problem. Set up to recieve chargers by keeping units in a firing line but with 3.5'' gaps between them, and cover the obvious lines of advance for the bikers with your heavy guns. Drop pods? Split your army up and make them split up theirs. Take each flank, put a sacrificial unit in the center, and let the drop pod units seperate themselves. You'll likely outrange them unless you're a choppy army yourself, in which case it doesn't matter much. What you can't shoot down, you fight with weight of numbers, since there are at most ten Space Marines in a drop pod, and it's surprising how isolated they can get deep-striking. Assault cannons out the wazoo? You have cover, use it to your advantage, and position units to funnel those land speeders into line of fire of multi-shot, moderate strength weapons. If they're terminators, they're SLOW... simply outmaneuver them.


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

If people are complaining about a Guard army being cheesy then they really don't know what they're talking about. They can be a very tricky proposition to face, but even drop troop armies (one of the stronger builds) are very random and not an auto-win.


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## Cadian81st (Dec 24, 2006)

My friend has a suicide drop troop army, and I've always been of the opinion that that is unfluffy. I mean, sure the IG is cold and heartless, but they're not going to invest god knows how much money into training elite soldiers, arming them with the best weapons in the universe, and then sending them on a suicide mission from which no one is expected to return alive. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I happen to think any necron army with more than one monolith below 1000 points is pure cheese as well, but that's easily countered cheese.


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## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

Cadian81st said:


> My friend has a suicide drop troop army, and I've always been of the opinion that that is unfluffy. I mean, sure the IG is cold and heartless, but they're not going to invest god knows how much money into training elite soldiers, arming them with the best weapons in the universe, and then sending them on a suicide mission from which no one is expected to return alive. It just doesn't make sense to me.


well, I see that as the Imperial guard having faith in their selves, equipment, and brethren. when we are playing the game, we see the final epic moments of the battle, we aren't playing the 5 months spent in trenches lobbing grenades and hoping for a kill, where there are hardly any casualties (so to speak) and everyone is too afraid to move, we are playing the gamble, we play the epic moments when backup does arrive, or the commander received authorization to push forward. so I don't see that as unfluffy at all. How often are SWAT teams deployed via helicopter onto the roof of a building, or like in rainbow six vegas, dropped into the middle of a terrorist calamity. Dropping elites is the best way to use them, of course in real life the drops are more surgical, but a drop is a drop. Real SWAT teams (which I would consider super elite) always infiltrate or drop in. always.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Cadian81st said:


> My friend has a suicide drop troop army, and I've always been of the opinion that that is unfluffy. I mean, sure the IG is cold and heartless, but they're not going to invest god knows how much money into training elite soldiers, arming them with the best weapons in the universe, and then sending them on a suicide mission from which no one is expected to return alive. It just doesn't make sense to me.


Don't read The Guns Of Tanith then, because thats exactly what happens.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Even with all that training, lasguns are largely inexpensive, and human lives are pretty worthless to the Imperial Guard. If a suicide drop will knock out something or cause enough of a distraction that another unit can push forward, then it sucks to be the drop troopers. Honestly, a gritty, sort of somber "I know I'm screwed" kind of attitude for a drop trooper army sounds pretty cool.


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## warlord statovitch (Aug 22, 2007)

> The Wraithlord wrote:
> We had a tournament here at the local GW with 300 bucks worth of stuff up for grabs. 1000pts, 4x4 tables. Dude brought a Black Legion list with, count 'em, 17 heavy weapons. 17 hweapons in 1000pts. Considering that the tables had next to no terrain on them, no one stood a chance. Hell, a friend of mine plays nids and never once got across the table and into cc. Pure, unadulterated cheese imho.
> 
> 
> I hate to defend these people, but I just like to consider their justifications, because they're not entirely unreasonable. If there's 300 bucks' worth of product up for grabs, that's a good chunk of a 2000-point army. Our hobby is expensive-- and a penny saved is a Space Marine earned in a lot of minds, my own included. The unfortunate truth of tournaments is that they're not necessarily fun in the way that a pickup game or one that you have with your friends is meant to be-- it's a competition, and while the games have the potential to be fun, it's not ultimately why anyone's there. Just for my own reference so I had an idea of what you were talking about, I made up an army list with the current Chaos Space Marine codex that has 18 heavy weapons (and a kai gun, if you care to factor that in, since it has a pretty similar effect) for 1000 points, and I can certainly see how unstoppable that probably would be in open terrain. I don't applaud the guy for playing that kind of army-- it ruins the game for everyone else-- but I think it's good to understand his motivations.


i must say , i think its not as bad taking a cheesy army for a tornament when there is something to get out of it other than pure enjoyment of battle, but what i hate is when your playing amoungst friends and they take these stupid highpowered armies. My mate took terminators and a devistator squad in his 500. HIS 500! There wasnt a single tactical marine in sight , just two squads of mesily scouts. Makes me sick when people dont play armies how they should. Fluffy armies are just far more fun.


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## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

I don't know, I think you can still have a fun game against high powered armies. It really depends on the attitude of the person playing it. If he/she is not being a jerk and talking trash than its usually pretty cool. Although they should know if I pull it off and beat them they are in for one heck of a bragging session. You can't beat a really cheesy army and than not have a little fun at the opponents expense.


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## matty570 (Jun 14, 2007)

I take it that you werent using combat patrol rules then? They're much better suited to 500pt games.

I must admit I try and think of tough army lists but nothing that anyone would consider cheesy, with my alpha legion of old and space marines before that I would win more than I lost but would hardly ever score a massacre - maybe grind out a victory and that was the fun of it.

I played an iron warrior cheese list and had nothing left at the end of his turn 3 - he went first..... and dont think he rolled a scatter.....


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

I refuse to play a game of 40K below 1700pts nowadays. 1500 isn't too bad but 40K was built around the 1700pt ideal and anything less finds you with unplayable lists depending on the army you are taking. Good luck trying to field Tsons successfully in the current codex at that point level, nevermind 500


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## Elric of Melnibone (Feb 9, 2007)

I am really disappointed to find a thread labelled 'Cheeseheads' on Heresy on Line

I think since its inception HoLhas been one of the better forums because there has been good posts and very little time wasted on threads tha are often seen on Warseer

Please don't spoil an execellent site with threads like this

:?


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Well, it's good to have the discussion-- maybe not how it started, but to get a feel for fellow heretics' viewpoints on gaming style.


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## Elric of Melnibone (Feb 9, 2007)

Gaming style usually fall into 2 camps the 'Cheeser'and the 'Fluffer' (for want of better terms) both strongly believe in their style.

Any 'discussion' around this usually degenrates into a slanging match as no one moves.

No good for an excellent site


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## black chaplain (May 14, 2007)

With this whole debate between "Cheese" and "Fluff", I think i'm on the fence. Whenever I build an army I don't use the things that seem the strongest or the "fluffy", I build an army that uses the units I like and enjoy using and i don't think there is anything wrong with that 

Anyway on the topic of "cheeseheads" I was playing a game at Games Workshop a while back and we had a free for all game where everybody took one unit (there was no point limit but we were meant to be sensible). But of course one guy just ignored that rule (not naming any names here, although he has earned the title of cheese king with the regulars) and took a chaos lord with the whole chaos armoury strapped to his back and a unit of 20 chosen all with power fists, bolt pistols/plasma pistols and a couple of daemonic gifts. Therefore the guy who was organising the game decided it was everyone versus the guy with the uber chaos and he lost. 

The moral of the story is: BE SENSIBLE


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

Indeed. The point to all of this is that one rule. What Some folks fail to realize is that there are people who play for fun, and not to win.

Elric, seeing as I've never had the pleasure of your company, I won't be a jerk about it, but I would appreciate it if you would note the fact that there are people out there in WH40K who only play to win...the crazy people who label anything halfway effective in an Ork army cheesy. The people who shoot at banners. I'm remarking that these sort of people detract from the element of the game and make it into a shouting match across the table.

-Dirge


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Elric of Melnibone said:


> I am really disappointed to find a thread labelled 'Cheeseheads' on Heresy on Line
> 
> Please don't spoil an execellent site with threads like this
> 
> :?


Don't worry too much Elric the members here have an uncanny nack of turning possible slang feasts into an informative of just plain amusing thread.

Winning or just playing for fun are both valid options I juggle both, just make sure your opponent is from the same camp and its cool.

My regular gaming mob sets it up so we know in advance which we are doing for that game and make their list accordingly. :wink:


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## torealis (Dec 27, 2006)

i'm definitely a fluffer.


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## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

torealis said:


> i'm definitely a fluffer.


You mean in terms of table top gaming wise right? Cause fluffers usually have a specific job, in other "industries".....


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

:hyper: LOL 
(Although with blue tablets available most have lost their jobs.)


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

There goes a naughty username...


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## Elric of Melnibone (Feb 9, 2007)

asianavatar said:


> torealis said:
> 
> 
> > i'm definitely a fluffer.
> ...


Arf !!! :hyper:


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

Not cool! There are kids on this site!! :hyper: 

-Dirge


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

I design my armies and the lists by the lore, but compensate for the loss of power by strategising with great force.


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

Dirge Eterna said:


> Not cool! There are kids on this site!! :hyper:
> 
> -Dirge


Who will have no idea what he's talking about unless they know what it means already in which case its academic....


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