# The Elite Five



## DrinCalhar (Jul 10, 2010)

This will be a discussion about the five best and/or the most "broken" units in 5E. I think this would help those of you that are new to Warhammer 40k 5E. Many times as I was playing, it would have been nice to know what to watch out for, before I found an amazing unit destroying my army. I want to hear from you, the players, the ones that spend their days playing and facing the best. I want to know why you think a unit should be the best or not the best but in the top five. You can submit your top five or just what you think is the best. I just want to know why. Why said unit(s) is the most versatile, the strongest, and/or the best at doing a certain job? If you disagree with someone then you must give good reasoning why you think so. 

I will start the ball rolling.
CSM - Daemon Prince
With many marks, psyker powers and wargear that the Daemon Prince can take, this allows the Daemon Prince many roles which he can play in your army. Not only a strong Monstrous Creature that can take on some units 1v1 but also a great supporting unit. Even with no upgrades the Daemon Prince can cause havoc. A Lash Prince with wings can give the Daemon Prince a 20" - 30" threat range for assault as well as the ability to move the enemy where you want them. So you can get a better shot or just so you can delay the enemy for just one more turn. All of this makes the Chaos Space Marines Daemon Prince the best unit.


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## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

Possesed Chaos Marines!!!!!!!

Ok now i'm fine. Personaly people who "Spam" the best units arn't in the game to have so much but more to win and that is somethign i dislike so i rarely use the "elites" and when i do i often use them in diffrent ways


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Nothing in the game is really "broken".

Some units are insanely effective (eg Nob Bikers), but they are also insanely expensive.

The best units are ones that are cheap and solid. Nothing "broken" about them, just efficient for their points (eg MeltaVets).

Daemon Princes are nowhere near as good as they were in 4th ed.


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## H0RRIDF0RM (Mar 6, 2008)

These are units that just annoy me more then others.

1. The Ork Boy is a dream troop. Cheap as shit, fast, very good on the charge, and can hide Power Klaw/Heavy Weapons.

2. Warboss, and Nob Bikers - Toughness 5, 3 or 4 + cover, 5 + invulnerable, Feel No Pain, plenty of allocate wound abuse manipulations, very good at destroying most units in the game, and can score. Very annoying and hard to deal with if you roll bad when it counts.

3. Vendetta - Breaks my heart as an Eldar player. Fast skimmer, decent armor, transports units, incredible AV firepower, and cheap. Did I mention it can be taken in squadrons

4. Farseer and Warlocks on bikes. Almost as problematic as Nob Bikers, but not quite as good.

5. Tervigon - He can generate troops each turn until his power is disabled, can issue feel no pain to a different unit each turn, and is on a T6 3+ Save platform. I've witnessed a player produce 95 gaunts in 1 game. I rank him in at 5 only because he's unpredictable.


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## stooge92 (Mar 6, 2008)

in going to have to go with the DP on this one, vertatile, powerful. if there were ever a unit to take when starting this would be it, it is harder to screw up with this unit than (i think) most others. He's tough enough and resiliant enough to hold his own and provide great support to many units.


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## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

I wouldn't call the DP broken, simply because his Toughness isn't that great for a MC. He only gets T6 if you take Nurgle, and even then anything S7+ can take him down fairly reliably since he only has a 5+ invul to defend against missiles/plasma.

Tzeentch builds get the nice 4++, but then S7 wounds on a 2+ and his role gets oddly split between dakka (which isn't that great other than Warptime/Winds) and CC.

Slaanesh gets Lash. Woop-diddly-doo. Everyone has long since learned to Mech up, so Lash's effectiveness had dropped sharply. This build is also very vulnerable, not benefiting from either MON or MOT. One thing i think is forgotten with Lash is that it has the same max range as Plasma, which is the perfect DP killing tool (this depends on the army, i personally take LOTS of plasma).

Khorne Princes are like that huge angry guy we all knew in High School who tried to bully people, but could be distracted for hours by simple logic puzzles, effectivly neutalising his threat. In game terms, you pay alot for little benefit and no versatility.

Unmarked Warptime/Wings are a bargain, but again not that huge of a threat due to relative squishyness.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Broken seems like almost too harsh a word for the problems surrounding a DP,
he *can *be cheap, but with Wings, MOT, Warptime, Bolt of Change, is 200pts.Thats for Eternal Warrior, T5 W4 Inv 4+ and a re-rollable Str8 AP 1 Shot, so thats roughly right points wise (about 20pts more would and only one per army would prob be fairer!), especially as we have no other real MC units.

The problem is the pricing of Lords and Sorcers which in comparison are nearly always only a few points away from being upgraded with Eternal Warrior, T5, 4 W and get a power or two of their choosing

Some of the Tyranids are a bit broken, the Doom of Malantai is a pain.

But more importantly Tervigons, T6 W6 as troop choices when Termagaunts are taken, constantly spawning 3 D6 of yet more Termagaunts which can move the turn they arrive, and then being able to confer feel no pain or furious charge on a unit of Termagaunts seems undercosted for what it does. Objective games are fun with even two of these guys (sarcasm). Basically what it means is you can take a Nidzilla list, two of these plus x2 20 Termagaunt squads which are very cheap and get loads more by the time you have advanced onto an objective. And because there are so many other big targets, Mawlocs, Hive Tyranid, Warriors, Tyrgon Primes, Zoanthropes you can focus fire on the Tervigons. That just sucks.

Blood Angels Vindicators are broken to, move 12" and fire your 24" large blast template of death ... F*** Off! Although these guys entire codex (and fluff, Necrons anyone?) is a bit suspicious at times. Which is a shame because the more I read of the old fluff the more I kind of enjoy these guys, even if they and their primarch are too good to be true sometimes. But always remember, when you lose to them as a CSM player, simply say "Yeah well your Primarch was still b*tch slapped by Horus causing your entire legion to go bonkers, you smarmy bunch of ...."


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## bishop5 (Jan 28, 2008)

TH & SS Terminators

Long Fangs with x5 Missiles

Grey Hunters with sprinkles

Guard Veterans with x3 special weapons in Chimera

Tervigons


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

There are several units that fundamentally altered the metagame in recent history:

-TH/SS termies (cheap, insanely durable against terminators' and marines' traditional weaknesses)
-Veterans with 3x special weapons in Chimera (incredibly cheap for what they do)
-Lash Prince (in 4th this guy was a game-changer, but now in the mech environment of 5th has lost much of his effectiveness)
-Nob Bikers (every competitive list needs a Nob Biker contingency)

I'm stuck on the 5th one. 
-Eldrad is horrendously good, able to make large swaths of an Eldar army extremely killy or incredibly resilient (rerolling 4+ cover saves on falcons with holofields is retardedly tough to kill.)
-Jetseer council is good on paper but gets shut down hard by psychic hoods and the like. Eldrad can at least stay out of hood range.

Nothing else I'd complain of being too broken. There are some units that are very good, and better than their equivalents in other armies like grey hunters, ork boyz, missile long fangs, vendettas, or tervigons, but they all have exploitable weaknesses and haven't altered the metagame much if at all. Vendettas are great but get shot of the sky quickly, tervigons are easily handled in close combat and not that resistant to being shot either for how much of a lynchpin they are for nids, Ork boyz die in droves to things like berzerkers, missile long fangs are cheap as chips for what they are but can by wiped out by other long ranged weapons, etc.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I do believe Eldrad would deserve a place.

But, I must admit the Obliterator should also be considered.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Orochi said:


> .But, I must admit the Obliterator should also be considered.


Hold on a second here, as CSM players we have one of the worst codex in terms of playability and fluff. Fluff obviously has nothing to do with this topic, but in terms of playability I'm not refering to its strength (although compared to newer codexes it is weak) but we have very few units that can be reliably used in an all commers tournament enviroment.

Long story short, in no way are Obliterators broke, they cost 75pts with slow and purposeful and multiple weaponry. But they can be instant killed, can die by bolter fire (admittedly difficult) and any dedicated CC troops destroys them. The only real pro they have is being able to mutate different weapons, but in the context of the codex, we lack so few reliable other options, that we need it. Our Land Raiders suck without POTM, WTF are chosen? 18 points for regular CSM with outflank and scout ooooohhhhh, no psychic defences at all, a dreadnought that goes crazy and no drop pods of any sort? 

My friend I'm not picking on you or your opinion, but I completely disagree. 

So far I think Tervigons and Biker Nobz are the two must haves on this Top 5 list IMO.


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## TimberWolfA (Jan 12, 2010)

Have to say that even though my Daemons armies get stomped by CSM DP with Lash and Obliterators (undo my run after deepstrike and flamer me to crap or just unleash hordes of plasma on the MCs, no transports for protection, Lash makes it mathematically unlikely that any of greater Daemons, even with flight, never get the charge, it's possibly one of the most one sided match-ups I can think of), when I'm running most MEQ lists I'm totally meched up and Lash Princes are just unexciting, especially since they're usually accompanied by multiple squads of Oblits, which usually amount to 3 lascannons or multi-meltas into the front armor of up to 3 targets each turn, something that good placement and popping smoke nearly nullifies and that a well built mech list just doesn't feel threatened by.

Oblits are cool because they...
-can Las at range, MM up close for vehicles.
-can plasma cannon or flamer grouped infantry.
-can TLPlasma MCs.
Oblits are not cool because they...
-cost a whole lot.
-can't split fire.
-produce a rather low shot volume if a Lash Prince isn't available to scrunch up infantry targets.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

I think the Dark Eldar Haemonculs for his support abilities will be quite a threat aswell as the Cronos Pain Machine


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Eldrad, Vulkan, Nob Bikers, Razorspam Blood Angels.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Vaz said:


> Eldrad, Vulkan, Nob Bikers, Razorspam Blood Angels.


How the heck did I forget Vulkan? Twin linking all flamers (for hordes), meltas (for mech), makes thunderhammers master crafted, and he's no pushover in combat. For that price he is a steal and should be added to the list.

Why is everyone saying Eldrad, what does he do, I've never seen him used before?


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## DrinCalhar (Jul 10, 2010)

He is a farseer on steroids and drugs. 3 abilities with crazy inv save which can be rerolled.


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

Why Razorspam Blood Angels? I dont get it, since you can just Lance or melta or Lascannon them to hell with ease. Plus they arent assult vehilces so what ever is in it is a sitting duck when it comes out willing or forced


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Loli said:


> Why Razorspam Blood Angels? I dont get it, since you can just Lance or melta or Lascannon them to hell with ease. Plus they arent assult vehilces so what ever is in it is a sitting duck when it comes out willing or forced


Yes, but 165 points for a 5-man squad with Meltagun that counts as scoring plus a Razorback with TL Assault Cannon is amazing.
Add onto that the fact that it can move 12" and still fire makes it extremely efficient for its points.

The only unit that comes close to it for efficiency is MeltaVets in Chimeras.
Both units cost similar points, but have their upsides and downsides.

But by no means is either unit "broken" as such, but they are extremely efficient units for their points.

Good solid efficient units are the ones that win games.
"Broken" units and "one-trick-ponys" can always be countered (such as NobBikers, Lash, Doom, etc), but solid core units are always the ones that shine and win games RELIABLY. k:


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## High Marshall Mendark (Jan 25, 2009)

The Black Templars Emperor's Champion!
At the cost of 14 Firewarriors with the Accept any Challenge Vow, gives the whole army preffered enemy! Also, his own abilities are great! S6 PW, WS6, 4 attacks on the charge, 2+ and 4++ in cc, I5 and an enemy IC hunter! He is the bomb! Stick him in a big squad or with some cc termies and he will destroy you!


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## Alpha Legionnaire (Oct 15, 2010)

bishop5 said:


> God-damned razorbacks of SW and BA
> 
> Long Fangs with x5 Missiles
> 
> ...


Seriously you're going to look me dead in the eye and say I can pay 130ish points for five missiles that can pick different targets. And I can take three of them.

Grey hunters=best marines ever, effectively terminators for one turn of the game(only die on the roll of a 2), and get an aspiring champion's statline for 18 points(damn wolf guard).

Guard veterans single handedly ruined the game for non mech armies, it made the standard ig infantry ridiculously effective by minimizing the cost, and maximizing the payload(Bs4!? THREE WEAPONS!? And they can all fire out of a chimera? blaaauurgh)

Tervigons are just straight up gay on wheels. The damn things are all t6 with six wounds and a 3+ save. So basically six nurgle bikers all squished together that ignore ID due to toughness. THEN! On top of that, it poops objective grabbers with 3s across the board.

Alone I'd pay for just the model and his buffs, but now he MAKES the goddamn things? Oh, and the best part?
He gives every guant squad within 6" every special rule in the BRB except jetbike. Seriously, he's giving five point models feel no pain(Psychic test, one target), furious charge, poison, and they already have move through cover? Ugh.
The worst part of it is that the stupid guants can daisy chain back, and when they hit marines they're rerolling 4's to wound(Due to stacked furious charge and poison) That's disgusting and really forces more mechlists.
I swear that ig codex writer just gets his jollies off watching fleets of tanks considering he wrote two books that are exceptional at killing anyone not inside them.


Oh and the Emperor's Champion? He's actually a magical magician. See most people when they assault make a 6" consolidate or charge right? Well let's say he's at the back of a 20 man squad at max cohesion, so when the first guy in the line charges he's somewhere in the ballpark of 60" away from combat?
Let's say that combat includes an enemy ic.

The Emperor's Champion will instantly teleport from one end of the line to the other moving models out of the way to "get to grips with his foe". Thank god for outdated rules, right?


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Daemon Princes have wargear?? You mean their wings, right? It's pretty much the only optional other than marks and psyker powers.

As for my votes..

-TH/SS termies (Served up in any Land Raider, these are just impossible to deal with. and some LRs can bring 8 of them to your doorstep, albeit at a hefty price)
-Mephiston - Sorry, still can't get over this guy. Statline makes a DP look like a grot, 3 powers a turn, force weapon, psy hood, S10 attacks at Ini 7 and can be hidden in a unit to keep from being missiled to death. Better than Abbadon or Ghagzkull at a cheaper price.
-IG Veterans! A sound unit to spam with three special weapons in a cool transport that lets them shoot. A lot.
- Plague Marines: Durable and with nice weapon choices, a small unit that pretty much requires your enemy to divert something big and nasty to dislodge them.
-Nob Bikers: the jury is still out if GW was naive and just didn't see the exploitation bait these guys are...or if they purposefully tossed the min/maxers out there a bone.

(And a potential Elite, pending actual play: The new DE Incubi. Excellent Ini, power weapons, power-armor equivalent save and good volume of attacks! They are like Banshees and Striking Scorpions rolled into one, can can hop right out of a fast, open-topped transport to dice anything that is not a vehicle or one of the heftier monstrous creatures.)


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## Alpha Legionnaire (Oct 15, 2010)

KingOfCheese said:


> But by no means is either unit "broken" as such, but they are extremely efficient units for their points.


Honestly I'd say that if it's overly efficient for it's points it does break the fundamentals of the game, ig vets, razorspam, nobs, and longfangs being among these choices. The player simply has no real reason to take anything else as it's less effective, and the less effective options are extremely competitive in their own right, so now you have lists comprised of hideously cost effective things that do too much for too little points.

It's not the flashy things, it's the sixty vets in chimeras.


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## Ghost792 (Jan 6, 2010)

Sephyr said:


> -Mephiston - Sorry, still can't get over this guy. Statline makes a DP look like a grot, 3 powers a turn, force weapon, psy hood, S10 attacks at Ini 7 and can be hidden in a unit to keep from being missiled to death. Better than Abbadon or Ghagzkull at a cheaper price.


Mephiston can't hide in units since he isn't an IC. Yes, he is a unit of 1, but his profile does not list him as an IC. The thing that protects him from high strength weaponry is T6. He has no invul. save, so with the right fire lines from enough heavy weapons he can be taken down in a turn. I'm not sure how often such a method will work, but I know that it can work.:biggrin:


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

Ghost792 said:


> Mephiston can't hide in units since he isn't an IC. Yes, he is a unit of 1, but his profile does not list him as an IC. The thing that protects him from high strength weaponry is T6. He has no invul. save, so with the right fire lines from enough heavy weapons he can be taken down in a turn. I'm not sure how often such a method will work, but I know that it can work.:biggrin:


Rarely works, i played a game a few weeks ago, my 'Nids and a BA player vs Cron and IG Gun. The IG player is a good friend of mine and he piled tons of fire on him and i think he only took 1 wound from what i rmemeber.

Im not sold on Incubi being the end all, sure they look bloody awesome, but need testing.

Whats the problem with Nob Bikers, since the only Ork player i know doesnt take them so i dont know why they are so awesome


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## IntereoVivo (Jul 14, 2009)

Sephyr said:


> And a potential Elite, pending actual play: The new DE Incubi. Excellent Ini, power weapons, power-armor equivalent save and good volume of attacks! They are like Banshees and Striking Scorpions rolled into one, can can hop right out of a fat, open-topped transport to dice anything that is not a vehicle or one of the heftier monstrous creatures.


This gets my vote. The potential for a turn one assault with 21 S5, WS5 powered attacks at I6 and 5 S6 attacks at I7 seems pretty good. Only T3 but with a 3+ Armour save and a 4+ FnP they will be able to take a hit back. All for a point cheaper then a Plague Marine. They don't have a lot of Mech popping ability, but considering they're running in a DE army, I really don't think it will be an issue.

As for the other four:
-Nob Bikers
-SS/TH termies
-Long Fangs w/ 5x ML 
-CSM Daemon Prince (I understand he is not as 'broken' as before, but supported well he can be quite the hammer)


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Loli said:


> Whats the problem with Nob Bikers, since the only Ork player i know doesnt take them so i dont know why they are so awesome


Scoring T4(5) with a 4+/5++/FNP/4+ Cover Saves, fast moving, multiple wounds, each model can be uniquely armed to abuse the Rules on Wound Allocation.

Expensive, but still it takes more than 700pts of opposing units to wipe out the full maxed unit. And, you can take 2 of them.

Not as nasty now, due to the Meta game (enforced by Games Workshop) generally maxing out Melta (and flamer, but that's not exactly relevant thesedays) rather than the LasPlas of 4e.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Ghost792 said:


> Mephiston can't hide in units since he isn't an IC. Yes, he is a unit of 1, but his profile does not list him as an IC. The thing that protects him from high strength weaponry is T6. He has no invul. save, so with the right fire lines from enough heavy weapons he can be taken down in a turn. I'm not sure how often such a method will work, but I know that it can work.:biggrin:


My mistake, then, and a bit reassuring. But still, one of his powers is  bouncing around like jump infantry, so chances to actually pelt him with lascannon fire are slim. And it pretty much has to be las or plas, since melta puts you in his assault range and he can save autocannon and rocket damage. And he has more wounds than a Great Unclean one!

Really, the only reliable way of killing Meth is to just shell out for an upgraded Ultramarine librarian to use the power for Ini 10 and then Force Weapon him out of existence. Except...he's got a psy-hood. Nevermind.


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

Sephyr said:


> Really, the only reliable way of killing Meth is


JOTWW 

Much better


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

IntereoVivo said:


> This gets my vote. The potential for a turn one assault with 21 S5, WS5 powered attacks at I6 and 5 S6 attacks at I7 seems pretty good. Only T3 but with a 3+ Armour save and a 4+ FnP they will be able to take a hit back. All for a point cheaper then a Plague Marine. They don't have a lot of Mech popping ability, but considering they're running in a DE army, I really don't think it will be an issue.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Um why do people think Incubi are S5, they are S4 and that's after the power bonus from the Klaive , everybody seems to be saying Incubi rock at
> ...


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## IntereoVivo (Jul 14, 2009)

> Um why do people think Incubi are S5, they are S4 and that's after the power bonus from the Klaive , everybody seems to be saying Incubi rock at
> S5 + I6 - yes they can get that ONCE they get 2 *pain tokens *and *charge* and ONLY on the first turn of CC.
> 
> I'm not saying they are a bad unit I love them, but get the stats right please


Because the best way to run them is with two Pain Tokens.  There are a number of ways for them to start with two and even if they only start with one, something should be dead by turn two.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but your paying for say 8 incubi and then at least 2 haemonculi to just get the pain tokens, even without the second one they are still just as good the amount of attacks will still kill 9/10 SM in a tact squad with just using 1 pain token leaving 1 SM to attack back in which right there you've just beaten them and gotten a pain token, ready for the next unit to go into


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## IntereoVivo (Jul 14, 2009)

That is a great point. I'll have to run the numbers at S4. It might be more effective not to wipe the unit in one round.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Just did the Math-hammer on 8 Standard Incubi on the charge (so 3 attacks each) average rolling states 8 out of a 10 strong SM squad should die this is before any damage by characters too, in which the way I run my Incubi would have an Archon with 6 attacks on the charge meaning that squad is dead!


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## Azrell (Jul 16, 2010)

Take 5 random units from the Blood Angels codex, and put them in random order and you will most likely get a list of 5 broken units.

Then shake you head and wonder why GW doesn't update all SM codex at the same time...


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## IntereoVivo (Jul 14, 2009)

Blue Liger said:


> Just did the Math-hammer on 8 Standard Incubi on the charge (so 3 attacks each) average rolling states 8 out of a 10 strong SM squad should die this is before any damage by characters too, in which the way I run my Incubi would have an Archon with 6 attacks on the charge meaning that squad is dead!


That is going to be killer. Hmmm. I might run the Incubi by themselves. No reason to let myself get shot up because I killed them all so fast.



Azrell said:


> Take 5 random units from the Blood Angels codex, and put them in random order and you will most likely get a list of 5 broken units.
> 
> Then shake you head and wonder why GW doesn't update all SM codex at the same time...


One problem with this. Blood Angels aren't Space Wolves.


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## Ghost792 (Jan 6, 2010)

Loli said:


> Rarely works, i played a game a few weeks ago, my 'Nids and a BA player vs Cron and IG Gun. The IG player is a good friend of mine and he piled tons of fire on him and i think he only took 1 wound from what i rmemeber.


Ouch, that's not good at all. Do you know of anything that does work?


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## IntereoVivo (Jul 14, 2009)

Rolling double 6s when you try to use a psyker power. Had a friend do it twice in one game which is the only reason Mephy died.


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

Ghost792 said:


> Ouch, that's not good at all. Do you know of anything that does work?


The only thing i can think of that could kill him out right without hassle is JOTWW, sure you could go for SAG but the odds of double 6s aretn that high. Mephiston is just a monster most games ive seen him in, never dying, sure he takes wounds but thats about it.


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## Alpha Legionnaire (Oct 15, 2010)

IntereoVivo said:


> One problem with this. Blood Angels aren't Space Wolves.


When you kill the eight spess mehreens they will have two attacks back in which deal no damage, those two marines are going to die by fearless wounds(Since you'll probably catch them, i4 is a joke)

If the sarge is still alive though, things look better for you(He fists one incubi and statistically should make his fearless saves more than not)

Also spess wulves are incredibly overpowered. Just...unreasonably strong as a codex. The heavy support beats any in the game, the troop choices have startlingly cheap razorbacks and cheap squad leaders(less than twenty points for a wolf guard as opposed to thirty for a chaos aspiring champion) the wolf banner is amazing, the special characters stomp face, and the wolf riders are infinitely better than bikes for not a ton of points more.

I can say the same for ig though, the troop choice of vet was utter disregard for player safety and it's the one reason ig stay at the tippity top tier with wolves and some BA lists. That and all the mythical beast tanks, that are more often then not superb.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Mephiston just met his equal in a 145pt Archon with Huskblade, Soul Trap, C Drugs and Shadowfield.


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## stooge92 (Mar 6, 2008)

hivetyrant with lash whips and dual boneswords could take meppy out (maybe)


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

Blue Liger said:


> Just did the Math-hammer on 8 Standard Incubi on the charge (so 3 attacks each) average rolling states 8 out of a 10 strong SM squad should die this is before any damage by characters too, in which the way I run my Incubi would have an Archon with 6 attacks on the charge meaning that squad is dead!


Incubi have really only gotten a bit worse from their old incarnation by the fact that they no longer have the splinter pistol (did anyone really ever shoot anyways - want to risk losing the one model that allows you to assault?). This, of course is offset by giving them fleet, reducing their point-cost, the Klavex is cheaper than the incubi master & the demi-klaves or whatever are pretty damned amazing. 



Ghost792 said:


> Ouch, that's not good at all. Do you know of anything that does work?


I've been running the crucible of malediction (enemy psykers take ld test, fail & are removed; begin & closest psyker, if he passes his test move to the next closest, etc until one fails or all have tested) for a while now on a warrior squad champion (Of course this will probably be a homonculi now). In the current codex I throw this unit in a raider with torture racks (-1ld w/i 6"). Then I park the raider right next to mephiston & let the crucible work. He's at a further -1ld Ld for being within 12" of the crucible when it is deployed so he's testing on an 8. I know he still has a better than 50% chance to survive, but hey - every single time I've used it against ANY army with a psyker it's paid off... In the new DE codex this will become slightly less effective since the psykers aren't at the -1 for proximity to the crucible, but taking a homonculus (I really should learn to spell that word, been playing the army for a year now...) is basically GOING to happen anyways...


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## DrinCalhar (Jul 10, 2010)

Okay, I am going to have to say it. This tactica has gone on a tangent, get back on topic guys. Top five units.


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## fishywinkles (Nov 8, 2009)

clever handle said:


> I've been running the crucible of malediction (enemy psykers take ld test, fail & are removed; begin & closest psyker, if he passes his test move to the next closest, etc until one fails or all have tested) for a while now on a warrior squad champion (Of course this will probably be a homonculi now). In the current codex I throw this unit in a raider with torture racks (-1ld w/i 6"). Then I park the raider right next to mephiston & let the crucible work. He's at a further -1ld Ld for being within 12" of the crucible when it is deployed so he's testing on an 8. I know he still has a better than 50% chance to survive, but hey - every single time I've used it against ANY army with a psyker it's paid off... In the new DE codex this will become slightly less effective since the psykers aren't at the -1 for proximity to the crucible, but taking a homonculus (I really should learn to spell that word, been playing the army for a year now...) is basically GOING to happen anyways...


Well if you are playing dark eldar you should have a few lances to chuck mephistons way. With some clever positioning you can ignore him for a turn or 2 letting you crack open enemy transports before annihilating him.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I would say the Monolith, but as nasty as it is there's even more horrible units out there.

As it is I'll say Broodlord. Seriously nasty, minor HQ choice but is a squad leader so you can have six of them. Re-roll hits/wounds (Can't remember which), Rending, accompanied by 'Stealers and really cheap.

Midnight


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

There are too many, and too many are situational, for example, that broodlord, gets laughed at by IG battlecannons, and plasspam. 

But orks cry when a stealer mob led by a Broodlord smacks my boyz. 


For me, out of what I fight, BAngels almost anything really. Mephiston I havent encountered yet, Thank god. 

And Nob Biker lists.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

stooge92 said:


> hivetyrant with lash whips and dual boneswords could take meppy out (maybe)


Such a weapon config does not exist. The best way to kill Meppy is the swarmlord using a tyrant guard equipped with lashwhip. Unfortunately, this unit costs more points than its target... 



MidnightSun said:


> I would say the Monolith, but as nasty as it is there's even more horrible units out there.
> 
> As it is I'll say Broodlord. Seriously nasty, minor HQ choice but is a squad leader so you can have six of them. Re-roll hits/wounds (Can't remember which), power weapon, accompanied by 'Stealers and really cheap.
> 
> Midnight


Liths are soft. :laugh: j/k

The Broodlord can only reroll ones to hit IF it has scything talons. And it does not have a power weapon or any equivalent rule, it has rending.



Anyhow, discounting the new DE (shivers...) my top 5 (based on exp) are...

1: Mephiston. Only ever killed him once using the swarmlord config above. Unfortunately, in hindsight the big bug would have done far more damage elsewhere...

2: Marneus Calgar. An EW with termi armour, 4+ invun, and two powerfist with built in uber bolters, rerolling to wound. Only comes behind Meppy because he don`t got a force weapon. 

3: Doom of Malan`Tai. Killed a whole bunch of marines are dropping in on turn two. Spent the rest of the game blasting marines and generally being a floating invincible dick. 

4: Ahriman. I do not appreciate my carnifexes being turned into spawn. Or my Nightbringer. Or my guardians. Sure, it`s just one guardian, but it really ruins the day for the rest of the squad...

5: Eldrad Ulthran. Mind Wars my necron Lord... twice. Not a fun experience for me. Other important fellows in my lists have met similar setbacks...


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## oblivion8 (Jun 17, 2009)

Im just going to list off the top 5 most broken SC's, as they are the main horribleness you will probably face.

1. Vulkan. (as said before, he adds an unfair amount of upgrades to your army for a relatively free amount of points)
2. Fateweaver. (Works as a fair unit in some cases, and can be abused in others, but he is still one of the hardest units to take out in the game imo)
3. Doom of Malan'tai. (if you have played against or used this, then you probably know that other than the precious elite choice slot it uses, the doom is the best 90pts you've ever invested in)
4. Eldrad (take a farseer, cripple him a tad, inject in him a ridiculous amount of psyker enhancing drugs, then give him a ridiculously powerful equpment and you have Eldrad)
5. Ragnar Blackmane (is he the one that gives a craptastic amount of special rules to his unit and has a bazzilion attacks? Was either him or logan)


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Yeah, Monoliths could be made of paper, the way lasguns tear through 'em :biggrin:

My top five broken units:
1: Chaos Spawn
2: Possessed
3: Swooping Hawks
4: Vespid Stingwings
5: Tankbustas

Midnight


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## OrkByTheGraceOfGork (Jun 9, 2010)

Best/broken? Well, as they relate to my reality? 

1. TH/SS Termies
2. Vulkan
3. Broodlord
4. Tankbusteds
5. Flashgitz


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

OrkByTheGraceOfGork said:


> Best/broken? Well, as they relate to my reality?
> 
> 1. TH/SS Termies
> 2. Vulkan
> ...


Wait... what???
I hope you are taking the piss. :laugh:


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

I think by broken he means shit in this case


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

Well im just going to reiterate Mephiston, played in a tournament yesterday. 2nd game was my Nids vs BA. Mehphston just riped through my 3 Raveners, 3 Warriors, my Hive Tyrany, 2 Genestealers and Broodlord. And its not like i didnt pump anything into him either. Yet he just plowed through my stuff and only suffered 2 wounds due to rolling double 1s. He just ripped through it.

But thats the only unit id deem as broke as it were. Everything else is kinda balanenced imo.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

If I understand the question, the 5 units I would advice every new player of keeping an eye out for would need to be:

Nob Bikers
TH/SS termies
Grey Hunters
Veterans /w chimeras/special weapons
Vendettas/Valkyries.


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## Alpha Legionnaire (Oct 15, 2010)

Crimzzen said:


> If I understand the question, the 5 units I would advice every new player of keeping an eye out for would need to be:
> 
> Nobs in battle wagons with deffrollas
> Long fangs
> ...


The battle wagon is much more threatening than bikers. d6 s10 auto hits? Oh lawdy.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Alpha Legionnaire said:


> The battle wagon is much more threatening than bikers. d6 s10 auto hits? Oh lawdy.


They are welcome to tank shock/ram me. Look, now they are in melta range. ^_^


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## Gunstar (Feb 25, 2009)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> They are welcome to tank shock/ram me. Look, now they are in melta range. ^_^


True but your melta dudes would most likely have been cut down by 20 Boys and a Power Klaw weilding Nob, Ghazghkull and 10 Mega Nobs, or even 15 Burna boys...



.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

The only time I have faced Mephy under the current rules edition was when he was running towards my lines and ripped through some dire avengers. However he was then placed to be in range of my wraithcannons which sent a lucky instant killing shot to him. Guy has not played him against with him since. 

I think on a top 5 list then Vulkan, Eldrad and nob bikers would have to be included. I would also consider fire dragons but that is only because they are cheap for what they carry.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Eldrad, because I'm tired of looking at him in every Eldar army but mine. Weird, since I technically play Ulthwe'.

Thunderfire cannons are pretty gross.

Nob bikers... hell, just nobs. Two units who completely ignore the spirit and letter of the rule for wound allocation.

Demon Princes were pretty great, back when you built 'em from scratch. Now... nothing, really. One-trick ponies. So I don't include them as being especially broken or even really powerful. My Long Fangs and Devastator occasionally get annoyed by Lash Princes, but only if said Lash Prince is lucky (or unlucky) enough to get close. For instance, I often put a Wolf Guard Battle Leader with Frost Blade and Storm Shield with my Long Fangs; my Devastators are usually accompanied by my Chaper Master, who carries a brace of Relic Blades.

Thunderwolf cavalry with storm shields. Especially if lead by any HQ. Followed by the assault terminators with storm shields. And let's not forget Legion of the Damned. Squads of 3+ saves irritate and frustrate me, especially multi-wound ones.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Funny cause I get asked the same question when I use my farseer. I get so bored by having to explain that I see no reason why Eldrad fights for my craftworld as opposed to Ulthwe. Anyway I also do not field him because he is technically dead.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Funny cause I get asked the same question when I use my farseer. I get so bored by having to explain that I see no reason why Eldrad fights for my craftworld as opposed to Ulthwe. Anyway I also do not field him because he is technically dead.


That, too.
I wonder why the half-wit who wrote the codex even included him, that being the case.
What's really funny is the fact that I never used a Farseer until the past year, and I keep forgeting to use his powers.
Not used to using psychers...
Guess I've gotten too used to playing Dark Eldar and Khorne Marines.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Vrykolas2k said:


> That, too.
> I wonder why the half-wit who wrote the codex even included him, that being the case.
> What's really funny is the fact that I never used a Farseer until the past year, and I keep forgeting to use his powers.
> Not used to using psychers...
> Guess I've gotten too used to playing Dark Eldar and Khorne Marines.


Eldrad is included because 40k is a game based on history, not the most recent events. 

There are other special characters who are technically dead.

Tycho and Old One Eye (?) to name but two.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Eldrad is included because 40k is a game based on history, not the most recent events.
> 
> There are other special characters who are technically dead.
> 
> Tycho and Old One Eye (?) to name but two.


And their inclusion is also irritating.
But, it's all a matter of preference, I suppose.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Vrykolas2k said:


> I wonder why the half-wit who wrote the codex even included him, that being the case.


Phill Kelly is only good at writing op stuff...would be my response, but that ig/nid codex writer is...I don't even think he looks at the points cost.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> Phill Kelly is only good at writing op stuff...would be my response, but that ig/nid codex writer is...I don't even think he looks at the points cost.


I agree.
And the worst writer of all was given Chaos Marines...


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Vrykolas2k said:


> I agree.
> And the worst writer of all was given Chaos Marines...


You do realise all writers are given certain boundaries and design breifs to follow on top of the fact Gav Thorpe wasn't that bad of a writer he wrote the old DE codex - it had one trick in it, one trick that smashed things to pieces. 

Get over the fact that the CSM lost a bit of dynamic-ness all codecies have since been updated from 3rd ed


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## IntereoVivo (Jul 14, 2009)

Blue Liger said:


> Get over the fact that the CSM lost a bit of dynamic-ness all codecies have since been updated from 3rd ed


Agreed. And I am confident that we'll see some excellent work with the next one. Maybe even a splitting of the codex.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Blue Liger said:


> You do realise all writers are given certain boundaries and design breifs to follow on top of the fact Gav Thorpe wasn't that bad of a writer he wrote the old DE codex - it had one trick in it, one trick that smashed things to pieces.


Gav Thorpe was fucking trash. Let's say his boundaries and design briefs are forgiven, let's say the fluff was out of his hands.

So then what did he write? The models themselves? Of which most are absolute garbage and unplayable? or is that 'design briefs'. Look at the last edition codex. Open it up.
See that?
That's a well-written beautiful codex, you could play anything and still be viable most of the time. Nothing gimped you too severely. It could be fluffy, you could cut points from happenstance places and get away with it, and everyone was happy. Sure it had a few builds that were too good(IW. Daemonbomb), but outside of those(players broke them more then the designers) it was a fantastic codex.

This shit. This. Horrific volume of fail. Was not worth the price of the paper it was printed on. A sixth of the codex is god-damned marines from the build-a-bear option on the website with wacky color changes. Over eighty percent of the fluff is completely copy/pasted, and he brought nothing new beyond huron blackheart and a broken icon system nobody uses.

He did the LAZIEST thing he could in every part of the codex and it shows. You'd have to be blind not to see it.

Writing a one-trick pony codex does not make you a writer of fine game design, it makes you an abortion that passed a feel-no-pain roll. A mistake of god.



Blue Liger said:


> Get over the fact that the CSM lost a bit of dynamic-ness all codecies have since been updated from 3rd ed


Only the people who never played with the codex say this. It's because you didn't have an entire army invalidated with your update. Spess marines are still spess mehreens, and the land speeders just need to move from asscan to multi melta.

Entire chaos marine armies had to be scrapped. Cultists? Gone. Daemons? Gone. Chosen? For all real expectations, gone. Converted ig tanks? Gone. All sound weaponry? Gone.

And they added Huron Blackheart. As if to apologize. A little "Hey guys, let's shit on you more." gift from Gav Thorpe. Mouthbreathing sack of shit.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> Gav Thorpe was fucking trash. Let's say his boundaries and design briefs are forgiven, let's say the fluff was out of his hands.
> 
> So then what did he write? The models themselves? Of which most are absolute garbage and unplayable? or is that 'design briefs'. Look at the last edition codex. Open it up.
> See that?
> ...


Ouch your neg rep hurt me soo much Lord Waffles, your name really does suit you, you truly do waffle on alot and for that you deserve your title of the Lord of Waffles.

For the record I did play CSM and saw many of the builds the old outdated codex showed, the new one works well in the current game and has many different builds, it's just many players dont like them as they don't believe in fun.


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## IntereoVivo (Jul 14, 2009)

Wow...neg rep for that? Lame.

While it is understandable that you'd be upset that GW would make you "scrap" your army and buy a new one flaming other people because of it is kinda stupid.

Anyway, its a game folks...which means you can play it however you and your play-group want to. If it bothers you that much, play with the 4th ed codex.


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

LordWaffles said:


> Writing a one-trick pony codex does not make you a writer of fine game design, it makes you an abortion that passed a feel-no-pain roll. A mistake of god.


Im putting that in my sig lmfao.

But i agree with guy above me, if it bothers you that much why not use the 4th edition dex? Since its what numerous people do, heck i know some people that still use the 4th ed rulebook because they dont really like the 5th. So why not use previous? Im sure friedns wouldnt mind.....


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## Glasqul (Sep 17, 2009)

I do not like to play against:
*Mephiston*. Only way I have managed to kill him, was by pulling off a lash through his psychic hood, and lashed him in front of 6 oblits rapid firing him with plasma.He will in most circumstances take down atleast his own pointscost before he dies.

*Nob Bikers* Have only played them once, but then they killed my entire army. It might be different now that I have learned a few tricks, but still a pretty hard unit.
*
Seer council on jetbikes*. They are....just everywhere, and kill what they want, when they want more or less.

*Eldrad* I do not see him as a big problem on his own, but together with the Avatar in a footdar army, it is starting to get really hard to win.

*Space wolfs with razor spam*. Never played them, but saw them in a tournament a few weeks back. They annihilated everything in their way to the first place by 5 wins in a row. From what I can recall, i do not think any of the opponents had a chance. 

But I think everything is possible to beat, you only have to take the right choices and decisions. 
A friend won over me by far, when I was running my tournament tuned twin lash list, and he an Eldar force with swooping hawks and similar units. Good players can win with underpowered units against less good/experienced players with cheese units.

Best regards
Robin


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Blue Liger said:


> Ouch your neg rep hurt me soo much Lord Waffles, your name really does suit you, you truly do waffle on alot and for that you deserve your title of the Lord of Waffles.


So it's personal attacks? Wow. How very mature.
Either way you fail to prove anything, see when you say someone is exhibiting a behavior you have to provide examples and thought process. Not just say things like
"Waffles is a jerk and I hate him bawwwww." See, saying things like that make it look like unwarranted personal attacks and not criticism. Neat isn't it?

And you got negative rep for not adding anything to the conversation, you just flew by like a giant pelican and shit all over chaos players. Considering you seem to be full of it, it's no big surprise that it's all you have to add to conversations.

Silly Liger, I am a Lord because I am better then you peasants. The moniker waffles is merely to show you I am a jovial and benevolent Lord.



Blue Liger said:


> For the record I did play CSM and saw many of the builds the old outdated codex showed, the new one works well in the current game and has many different builds, it's just many players dont like them as they don't believe in fun.


No, it does not. Should I point you in the direction of any number of threads explaining why? It has a single build that works in competitive play. One. God you're awful at providing any evidence at all, pelicanning again I see?

Believing in fun? You say that like double lash oblit zerkplague spam isn't fun and is extremely monotonous. A terrible shame that it's all we have to play. We don't have space wolves, pick a dex entry and rollout. We don't have tyranids: three choices per entry for competitive play. We have a single list, or we're awful beyond belief.

Also when someone negreps you and you do it right back, it kind of invalidates you getting support for an "Unjust and unrighteous action".



IntereoVivo said:


> Wow...neg rep for that? Lame.


Don't worry, Liger showed more of his true dakkadakka skills by doing it right back for "Waffles u r dum and i haet u"



IntereoVivo said:


> While it is understandable that you'd be upset that GW would make you "scrap" your army and buy a new one flaming other people because of it is kinda stupid.


You say that as if you are taking up arms against what I believe was a subtle and well-thought out way to indicate to Liger that telling all chaos players to "Eat shit and die" is totally appropriate behavior. I didn't immediately eviscerate his opinion openly, and he should thank me for such.



IntereoVivo said:


> Anyway, its a game folks...which means you can play it however you and your play-group want to. If it bothers you that much, play with the 4th ed codex.


Right. I'll saddle right up to ard boyz with last editions codex and ask them "Pretty pretty please?" with the largest puppy dog eyes I can feasibly accomplish with my bloodshot hate vision.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Seriously you class that as a 'Personal Attack'? The fact that someone pointed out you were being too verbose and belabouring a point?

And then your response to that is to make *another* overly-large post where you call everyone peons?

I've said before that I don't care if you lemmings neg rep each other into oblivion, rip each other part with your little reputation point wars- it means fuck all and *we dont care*.

regards 

Baron Spikey


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## IntereoVivo (Jul 14, 2009)

LordWaffles said:


> Right. I'll saddle right up to ard boyz with last editions codex and ask them "Pretty pretty please?" with the largest puppy dog eyes I can feasibly accomplish with my bloodshot hate vision.


'Ard Boyz is your play-group? Frankly, if you cannot win with the current codex you need to work on your game. Or go play with IG or Space Wolves.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Blue Liger said:


> You do realise all writers are given certain boundaries and design breifs to follow on top of the fact Gav Thorpe wasn't that bad of a writer he wrote the old DE codex - it had one trick in it, one trick that smashed things to pieces.
> 
> Get over the fact that the CSM lost a bit of dynamic-ness all codecies have since been updated from 3rd ed


I have both of the 3rd ed. codices for Dark Eldar.
The first one was such a vapid piece of crap they made him do it over.
I run horde DE, not the raider lists. That may or may not change with the new 'dex. Ya, it was written to have one trick, but really I'm a better player than that. My lists work really well the way I have them, in spite of being outdated as hell.
With the new Chaos dex, I get up to 2nd place running two Khorne Lords in a Khorne army (one in a land raider with his Berzerkers and Skull Champ, one on a Bike with a squad of bikers, both with Bloodfeeders). Personally, I don't really like the new daemon weapons as much as I liked Axe of Khorne and other options. I never play Black Legion (though according to the new 'dex that's all there is, pretty much), but I don't like that Abaddon is no longer master of his sword.
The lack of real options sucks. They seem to be trying to emulate the Necron codex with the new ones, so you either get armies that all look exactly alike (how is that fun?) to people saying your army won't work because you go your own way (and sometimes they're right).

edit: We're getting off topic, here... let's get back on, shall we?


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> Seriously you class that as a 'Personal Attack'? The fact that someone pointed out you were being too verbose and belabouring a point?


You were so up in arms when I showed people how incorrect their viewpoints were, so I thought I'd try to let you know about a potential shitstorm. You have failed me utterly. In order to point something out it requires you to point it out, not just say "ur a ***" and then let it sit there.



IntereoVivo said:


> 'Ard Boyz is your play-group? Frankly, if you cannot win with the current codex you need to work on your game. Or go play with IG or Space Wolves.


No I actually play with a group of varied skill, but most of us have aspirations of going to ard boyz and performing well enough to get higher on the ladder then the local level. This requires practicing with the legal codexes. No tournaments around here allow non gw-legal codexes either.
And let me write you a balanced chaos list and let you play it against a competitive list, then come back to me and say those words sir. I'll call your bluff.

Alright back to actual content, have we developed an actual chart as of yet that we can all agree on?

IG Meltavets in new chimeras(fire points herpderp)
SW Longfangs
BA Mephiston
Las/plas razorbacks
Nobs of any variety


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

I wouldn't call mephiston Broken. Very good yes but he's more expensive than a squad of terminators. You do pay for his goodness. Also any Hidden ID weapons like squad force weapon etc. can kill him outright. He's good but I wouldn't say broken. 

My list though Would be 
IG mech vets(either valks or chimeras, both are nasty) 
Vulkan, So many rerolls for cheap as chips. 
grey hunters, Same cost as a normal tac squad yet they have counter attack and access to a lot more better equipment, plus the added cheap wolf guard.
Long fangs, again as the GH, a heavy weapons squad should not be able to out assault a similar sized tactical squad and still be cheaper than a normal devastator squad. 
Nob Bikers. So hard to take down!


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## Dakingofchaos (Sep 29, 2009)

bishop5 said:


> TH & SS Terminators
> 
> Long Fangs with x5 Missiles
> 
> ...


i like this. Simply because he has iron maiden as his avatar :laugh:


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Can it Lord Waffles. You cannot show how incorrect others are becuase they are listing THEIR VIEWPOINTS. This debate is a matter of opinion becuase I am sure they would update the codex now if it was a matter of fact. Stop assuming YOUR OPINION is the only correct one. 

I agree with the Baron


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Gosh the thread was on topic for all of two posts then, whos going to be a star and steer it back.

Before it gets closed.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

ME!!!

Another thing which is rather too powerful is the almighty Landraider.


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

Im going to say it: The Entire DE Codex, since every new codex in recent years people always scream OMG ITS BROKEN or something to that extent


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## ThunderHawk (Oct 6, 2010)

- SS/TH Terminators (these things just won't die)
- Nob Bikerz (cheap but very effective)
- Long Fang with ML x 5
- Monolith (almost impossible to destroy, albeit slow movement speed)
- Mephiston


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## Izzleydill (Jul 11, 2010)

Mephiston can't join up with another squad, and he's missing so many of the good powers in the blood angels codex, I find it hard to call him cheap. Even in close combat, a powerfist or two goes a long way on his high costs.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Loli said:


> Im going to say it: The Entire DE Codex, since every new codex in recent years people always scream OMG ITS BROKEN or something to that extent


They do, and there is quite a bit of codex creep, but usually there's something to balance it out, even if it's hard to perceive, betimes.


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

Vrykolas2k said:


> They do, and there is quite a bit of codex creep, but usually there's something to balance it out, even if it's hard to perceive, betimes.


Oh i know that, i mean i preorder the codex (should be here in any time now) but i wont be buying the models til Janurary (need to save up) so i know that there will be a balance, but it tends to come from people who havnt got the codex that will say its overpowered lol

Im going to say Genestealers to an extent, since if its something which can take you buy suprise and really afect a game plan, i know they arent super awesome, but they are one of those units which can be really effective


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