# Versus Powerfist Squad Leaders



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

*Versus: Week Seventeen​*
My apologies for starting this one so late, this is one of my favorite suggestions and it was recent too! just goes to show you that your ideas ARE valuable. Hit the link above and let us know what you want to see taken down.

Anyhow, plug over, onto the topic...

Everyone knows the pain...here comes a squad of marines, or a bigass ork mob, or even an IG squad...and at the head of the pack is a guy with the Right Hand of Doom. A powerfist. You know as soon as you get into assault, that guy is going to kill half your squad, flat out. No saves, no feel no pain, barely even a wound roll...and what's worse, under the current (4th ed) rules, he's almost impossible to single out and kill!

So what do you do? How do you deal with the dreaded 'Hidden Fist'?


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

Several of the members of the group I usually play with are around measurements all day. Thus we are fairly good at judging distances. Since technically you can only remove models within range of the weapon, we would often times move the figures and rapid fire on that lead Sgt., or that lead few guys. 16 bolter and 2 plasma shots usually kills the 2 or 3 within range.

Ohh Most memebers of our groups stopped moving around with a triangle, or blunted triangle formation. Now most people advance in small blocks to lessen that problem.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Psychic powers like Gift of Chaos and mind war have the advantage of being able to target individual models, including pesky fisty vets. Mind war especially comes into its own against such targets.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

I bring my own.

*shrug*

As an Ork player, I have faith in the fact that my Klaw will be around long enough to take care of Sergeant Puff'n'Stuff.

Alternately, you can try to bring him down through superior firepower- and for Marine on Marine violence, I've found that sometimes a power sword can clear the kill zone before the Fist came come into play.


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

There are two good options for fighting a PF-monkey. You can either out-power weapon him with say...termies or something like that, or you can zerg the squad. His attacks are good, but they can't overcome sheer numbers most of the time. The simplest option is to mitigate his attacks by not letting him get the charge. that's where they get devestating. You can also try to attack him with a high initiative unit like howling banshees, genestealers, or wyches. Kill them before they get to strike.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Sergeants are hardly what I'd call a major threat. They're good, yes, but they're throwing three attacks, which have to hit first before they can smash someone. So usually, you're getting one or two models with that power fist, not three or four. If it really bothers you, though, it's better to make sure you're able to inflict more wounds with regular weapons (which happens anyway purely through volume of dice rolled) than the other guy. If you cause four casualties with chainswords, and the other guy causes two, the sergeant is going to MAYBE tie the combat. Power fists are useful tools, but only a fool relies on them to win combat for them on their own.


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## Morgal (Sep 26, 2007)

Throw a squad of IG at em to ensure they can't assault the tank, or position tanks behind troops.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

The Son of Horus said:


> Sergeants are hardly what I'd call a major threat.


Hey now... my Klaw-wielding Nobz are the best anti-tank weapon in my army!


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## chrisman 007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Well, if your a guard player, there's always a few pie plate launching death wagons (or leman russes, if you prefer) to reduce the squad size, and then it's just a case of pew pew pew till they're all gone.


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## shas'o7 (May 17, 2008)

WOOOOOOHOOOOO!
100th Post!

So, how to beat a guy that will be almost invincible in close combat.............

Well, Pie plate weapons will weaken his squad. You can try to get into CC with someone even nastier.

Really though, its going to end with shooting everything you've got at him.


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## chaos vince (Jun 10, 2008)

never had much trouble with a pfist weilding sarge, course my view is skewed cause with loads of beserkers usualy drown people in attacks and the fist dies before it swings


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

IF the powerfist is the biggest threat, concentrate rapid fire weapons on his squad, forcing a morale check for casualties. If fearless, remove enough of the squad to male it vulnerable to assault. Take advantage of the fact that powerfists strike last.


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## Desolatemm (Feb 2, 2008)

If I see a powerfist on its way, I just mindwar the hell out of it. I often get a good reaction from my opponent ":angry:"


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## Anphicar (Dec 31, 2006)

I usually don't have any specific anxiety or worry for anyone like that.

If he giving me problems though, out comes my dread Archon. _Boooyaaah!_


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## Steel Nathan (Apr 26, 2008)

Well... most armies don't have anything that can take down a specific model in a squad( I think Mindwar is the only one that I know of, but I'm sure there's another one out there, hiding on me). 

Really the only way to get rid of them is to kill the other squad members and eliminate the dude. Or or or.... hehe.. shoot the squad and have them fail their leadership test and send them running( and assuming they can't/don't/fail to come back and run off the table :laugh 

That's really it.... ooo another way is to use Lash to send the guy to the back of the unit and charge the squad, eliminating everyone and have the guy left alone( with possibly 2 or 3 guys left)


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## chaos vince (Jun 10, 2008)

can't lash a single model, only whole units. on the other hand you can spawn him... the perfect end for a loyalist:victory:


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## Steel Nathan (Apr 26, 2008)

Wait... so you can't move each model indivivually? Just as one huge group?


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## chaos vince (Jun 10, 2008)

it says that the target is moved 2d6' by the chaos player, so the whole unit is moved 2d6', i always figured that since it say's you can target any non vehicle unit and that the target is moved i read it as being the unit as a whole which is moved but this might be a good topic for the rules section


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

chaos vince said:


> it says that the target is moved 2d6' by the chaos player, so the whole unit is moved 2d6', i always figured that since it say's you can target any non vehicle unit and that the target is moved i read it as being the unit as a whole which is moved but this might be a good topic for the rules section


the FAQ on the subject mentions you can move each model individually, exactly as if you were making a move with them. so you could move them into some ridiculous formation where only the vet sarge was visible and you could snipe him out with anything, or where only the vet sarge was in charge range, and you can just direct all attacks against him (and the one other trooper within 2in coherency) to wipe him out first without worrying about others. However, most people just use it to move the unit into a big clump in the centre and pelt the unit with every blast weapon in the army to wipe out the unit, rather than just trying to snipe a model out. I however prefer the INAT FAQ rules which just have them moving in a direction you choose, keeping in the same formation as much as possible, its less....broken that way. 

Back on topic though, another way to take out PF sargents is if they are spread out to the maximum distance, usually if you have ordinance weapons and the like. If the sarge is close to one edge of a unit like that, you can try to "wing" the unit with a powerful attacking force. Or if he's in the centre of a max coherency unit, you can charge him individually with a powerful character, and if you can cause enough wounds, he'll go down as one of the few models within striking distance. though you need one who you know can take out enough guys to clear the killing feild, or else you risk getting pounded back with the powerfist.


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## xcom (Dec 27, 2007)

Steel Nathan said:


> Well... most armies don't have anything that can take down a specific model in a squad( *I think Mindwar is the only one that I know of, but I'm sure there's another one out there*, hiding on me).
> 
> Really the only way to get rid of them is to kill the other squad members and eliminate the dude. Or or or.... hehe.. shoot the squad and have them fail their leadership test and send them running( and assuming they can't/don't/fail to come back and run off the table :laugh
> 
> That's really it.... ooo another way is to use Lash to send the guy to the back of the unit and charge the squad, eliminating everyone and have the guy left alone( with possibly 2 or 3 guys left)


The dark angels have mind worm, essentially the same power isn't it? roll a leadership test and if your score beats there's the model is removed from play.


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## Steel Nathan (Apr 26, 2008)

xcom said:


> The dark angels have mind worm, essentially the same power isn't it? roll a leadership test and if your score beats there's the model is removed from play.


Yeah Basically:victory:. For the Mind War if you beat the score( I think it's the same way was mind worm) then you lose wounds( depending how much you beat them by, luckly the Farseer doesn't lose any ) 

And about the Lash, well then the FAQ gets my point in. Move the guys close to the Deamon Prince and/or the charging unit and just kill everyone except for the sergeant, then kill him next assault phase .


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Vs powerfists I use my Destroyer Lord maxed out for CC. Even against Terminators it's 4+ to hit and 3+ to kill, no saves allowed (not even inv. saves). High movement makes him great for intercepting trouble units, especially if teamed with some Wraiths.


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## hurt-wm (Jun 8, 2008)

vindicare assassins work well. can maybe pop two or three sargents if your carefull.


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## muffinman82 (Oct 29, 2008)

If I am not mistaken Cant sniper fire target ole sarge specifically?


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

Nope, only the Vindicare and Tellion allow the attacking player to allocate wounds. So yes, Tellion or the Vindicare Assassin could pick him out, but not normal snipers.



> vindicare assassins work well. can maybe pop two or three sargents if your carefull.


Since when did Vindicares actually DO anything, most of the time they shoot, they hit, they FAIL


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## Spot The Grot (Jul 15, 2008)

I think there are 2 easy ways....

1) Get as many attack in before it strikes , so that could mean dumping your own fist for a power weapon.

2) As said assassions and telion would work well to pick out the guy with the fist.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

One reason why big units are now better is that you can put enough wounds on a target unit to make the fist guy take saves. A 5 man combat squad is quite vulnerable to this happening.

Ork nobz are probably the hardest to remove. The above tactic doesn't work when you have 20 or 30 guys to wound as it's just about impossible to cause 20 wounds with a single unit's firing. If you do, then the ork unit is dead anyway. Another problem is that he has 2 wounds so the majority of the sniper attacks are just going to fail against him.

The best tactic is usually to focus fire. Make it so that you completely wipe units out before the nob strikes. Shoot them a bunch of times, then charge with khorne berzerkers (or equivalent) and the fist is no problem.

Alternatively use kroot. Kroot fighting orks is hilariously bloody. The kroot don't really care about the fist as they die to basic attacks just as fast.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Someguy said:


> One reason why big units are now better is that you can put enough wounds on a target unit to make the fist guy take saves. A 5 man combat squad is quite vulnerable to this happening.
> 
> Ork nobz are probably the hardest to remove. The above tactic doesn't work when you have 20 or 30 guys to wound as it's just about impossible to cause 20 wounds with a single unit's firing. If you do, then the ork unit is dead anyway. Another problem is that he has 2 wounds so the majority of the sniper attacks are just going to fail against him.
> 
> ...


Khorne berzerkers (Or equivalent) lolwat?

We have an equivalent to the best per-point close combat force marines can muster? Outside of a huge BT squad, I mean.

Usually I just account the powerfist guy as "Two marines dead" and hope he fails, most armies can't take on 46 wounds(Orks always have plot-armor level cover saves)

As for tactics against hidden powerfist. Chalk that up as two dead marines when it hits you. Problem solved.


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## tony161 (Jan 27, 2009)

I think that u should just leave them to get close, wait a bit, then snipe and pin them infront of rapid fire units. Then hammer tem with every thing.This lets youconcentrate on other enemy units with out getting hung up on the massive squad marching closer. However with orks, just put as many templates, and blasts as u can over them.


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## bl0203 (Nov 10, 2007)

LordWaffles said:


> Khorne berzerkers (Or equivalent) lolwat?
> 
> We have an equivalent to the best per-point close combat force marines can muster? Outside of a huge BT squad, I mean.
> 
> ...


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

LordWaffles said:


> Khorne berzerkers (Or equivalent) lolwat?


I didn't say it had to be as cheap as the zerkers, just as killy as them. Admittedly, not very much stuff is as killy as zerkers but...

Who am I kidding? Get zerkers.

Speaking of which, my own zerker skull champ with power wep killed a blood angel death company before it got to strike the last time he met one. Admittedly it was only an ickle DC with 3 guys, but charging skull champs are nasty, nasty things.


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## bl0203 (Nov 10, 2007)

Someguy said:


> I didn't say it had to be as cheap as the zerkers, just as killy as them. Admittedly, not very much stuff is as killy as zerkers but...
> 
> Who am I kidding? Get zerkers.
> 
> Speaking of which, my own zerker skull champ with power wep killed a blood angel death company before it got to strike the last time he met one. Admittedly it was only an ickle DC with 3 guys, but charging skull champs are nasty, nasty things.



IMHO I think the units are pretty equal. Obviouslly whom ever gets the charge will probably win the combat. The Zerks have the WS and score while the DC have the JP, Rending and FNP which is nice. Both are pretty quality units.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Ork Nobz on Warbikes, hate these buggers. 2 Units of 5, each with a Warboss, and you have 1000pts. But you have on the charge; 5 Str 10 Attacks, 9 Str 9 Attacks, and 6 Str 6 Attacks. hard as nails. With the 4+ Cover Save, 4+ Armour Save, and a 5+ Invulnerable.

Take nothing short of concentrated Battlecannon+ Fire to bring em down, and they've ran me ragged recently.

To deal with Powerfists in squads, I deal with them the same as Always - Shoot them. Blasts/Ordnance, then Templates, then standard shooting. If I did have Telion or a Vindicare, then maybe then I could take them out straight away.

Nobz are the biggest pain - they have a huge resilience to the fire that you aim at the Boyz, although Heavy Bolters are good, as are Autocannons, you're still looking to fire twice at them with a Heavy Bolter, and 3 times with an Autocannon to kill them.


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