# Big Dice : cheating?



## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Okay well here's the question. I have the Apocalypse big gun die, the red and black ginormous ones. They are the same colour as my army So I always use them. Now A friend of mine who's into the competitive side of the hobby(we both are, just he takes it anally seriously) claims that big die roll less 1s than any other die out in the market, and the fact that they don't roll means that they are cheating die. When I roll them in groups I shake them up in my hands before rolling them on the table, one might fall on top of the other and basically plant it down before it gets to roll. Every dice can do that just it's more obvious with bigger ones. Now he pretty much demands that I get rid of them for smaller die mainly because, well, he claims I'm cheating with them. 

What are your thoughts on this subject??


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

I think it's a load of old twoddle. I use my big gun dice for my special weapons in my squads and it still hasn't saved me from having to remove plasma gunners frm overheats. Still if he's going to be that fussy about it make a compromise, get a high sided dice rolling tray (i use a sprayed shoebox) and really launch the dice everytime that you roll them, that way they won't go off the table cause they are in a box and you can make sure you get a good spin on them each time.


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

Unless they are loaded dice, I can't see any logical side to your friends argument. Honestly, if he's going to get that pissed about fat dice, I'd use them every game just to spite him.

The only "real" argument he could make is that your fat dice generate more inertia when rolling because of their substantial mass, thus creating a sutation where your "random" isn't the same as his "random."


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

Size of the die isn't the issue, but rather the method of rolling. It is far too easy to drop a die that doesn't roll much so that it lands on a number you want (I have a friend who can land a number he wants with 80% accuracy.) So long as any given die is rolling an appropriate amount to randomize the result, there should be no issue regarding the size of the die.

That being said, there are dice that aren't as well-balanced as other dice merely because of how designs on particular sides weight the die, and thus the results. Most dice manufacturers are pretty careful, but they will never be as good as casino dice, and even casino dice are retired fairly often to prevent wear from affecting the outcome of the randomness of the roll.

In the end, just make sure you are providing enough roll to the die to make sure it is a truly random result (even if you aren't trying to cheat when a die just drops) and your opponents should have no issue. If he continues to complain, just be really picky about the dice that he uses and his rolling method. It is also handy to surf the Internet for some facts on dice randomness and rolling method, just so you are even further armed with knowledge.


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## OrkByTheGraceOfGork (Jun 9, 2010)

The description of your rolling technique appears legit. Your friend is full of shit. Say no to whiners.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

If he whine's just keep getting bigger and bigger dice, Sooner or later he will go craxy. Or just tell him to suck it up and stop bitching.


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

hey I use tulalip casino dice now for my 1 d6 needed I do claim that it is my lucky dice as it has rolled 6s four times in a roll


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

Make sure to use big pink fluffy ones next game, because the claim that you are cheating is stupid.


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

i have a giant pink dice to roll penetrating damage results when im rolling for 14 armor vehicles. i love it when i kill monoliths with it. its about 2 inches wide and high and super pink it maches my emperors children but yea it rolls weird sometimes what ive notice is you really got to exagerate the rolling motion because they just seem to slide on one side. but yea big dice dont seem to roll as much more surface area so they dont roll when the proper motion is'nt applied. i have played players that use big dice only when they seem to be firing special stuff like lascannons or plasma cannons, they say like its their good luck dice but i useually dont worry about it much because im a friendly player. i would suggest if you are planning on playing in tournaments to keep people from raising tempers just use the same dice for anything no different from the rest.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Ask him to point out the rule in the rulebook.

While shitting in his mouth and telling him to grow some stones.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

I always roll 1 with my big gun dice.


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

yea same with my pink i really have to shake it and roll or else it gets like 1s or 2s. but those slighly large white dice are hella cheap because they can be mastered at slide rolling.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

The Big Gun Dice are legal for comps, they are official GW dice after all. I have observed, and it has also been reported to me, that these big dice roll low rather than high. For this reason I have stopped using them, your dice should roll randomly.

Your complaining friend is a bit of an idiot though: high rolls mean good AV penetration; but they also mean lots of failed Leadership, Pinning and Moral, and Characteristic tests. Hardly an advantage.


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

Casino dice roll randomly (when rolled properly and against a rebound surface). They are precision made this way.

Round cornered dice roll decidedly less than average, and have skewed results.

If anything, GW's chessex made dice are cheating dice as they roll worse than you generally want. [Yes, GW don't make dice. They buy them off another maker, just like their flocks and scatters, tools and glues).


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

chromedog said:


> Round cornered dice roll decidedly less than average, and have skewed results.


I'd be curious to see the mathematical proof for this. Casino Dice are only made they way they are due to Federal Law in the US. 

Aramoro


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

It's more than just federal US law.

It's a general principle by ALL of the casinos, globally.

There have been several studies done on the round cornered dice. Some even by math-nerds using their statistics class for the test groupings. They even published their results.

I can't be bothered petitioning the googleplex engine for them though. Statistics bore me more than LOTR.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Pretty much as point out, unless the dice are weighted, its absolutely bollocks to think that X dice will roll X number more then another, especially with the legit 'shake em around' method your using. 

On that though, there really needs to be some sort of dice shaker cup so that you can't get people trying to cheat with the 'dropping them a certain way' method of rolling.

Think about it... who wouldn't have fun rolling dice out of a skull shaped cup for instance?


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

dice are dice, size, shape weight and all that making a difference when you roll them to me is frankly a load of bollocks made up by people with too much time on there hands and too many crackpot conspiracy theories going around in there heads.

you can roll a dice as big as a TV with rounded edges and a dice as small as a pinhead with square corners and guess what.....the results will still be as random as ever, you can spout all this averages and percentages nonsense all day till your face is blue and the cows come home, the fact of the matter is no matter how long you spend wasting your life with a handful of dice and calculator those dice can and will still F-up all the rubbish you just calculated time and time again.

the only advantage of big dice is being able to throw them at your opponent for thinking such utter nonsense, or get a group of dice in your sock and hitting them over the head with them.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

To the OP- this kind of dice hate comes up all the time in other games like bloodbowl. If in doubt just use your opponents dice. He can't complain then can he?

As a side question- why is there so much vitriol in answers to questions like this? If your opponent has a perceived issue then it makes sense to tackle it head on rather than seek to antagonise them further.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

if your playing competitively you should both use the same set of dice, problem solved


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## Whizzwang (Dec 31, 2008)

Square edged/cornered casino dice are too easy to manipulate. With enough prcatica you can have them come up with whatever number / combinations of numbers you want. 
The same is true for larger dice that don't roll as well as normal (16mm) ones. I think someone else pointed this out.

Dice towers are an awesome addition to games where you want to use "non-standard" dice.

http://www.battleloremaster.com/2007/05/custom_battlelore_dice_tower.html

They force the dice to tumble as they fall through, generating a proper;y trandom result.

I will not play against opponents who insist on using casino dice / large dice without a tower as i can manipulate those dice fairly well myself so who is to say they cannot?

Edit: I'm sure this was posted on here a couple of years ago when the same discussion came up, but here's the master ******** Jones at work.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Whizzwang said:


> YouTube- "Dice Cheating This is how I do" by ******** Jones


Oh my god, you dont seriously believe that do you? :headbutt:

He gets the dice, and randomly rolls different numbers, and then records himself "commentating" on his video and attaches the audio to the video.

There is a reason you cant see his face while he is rolling the dice.
Its an old Youtube trick thats been around for YEARS. :laugh:


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

A dice is a dice, doesn't matter what size... 


The only way you will roll less ones is if 2,3,4,5,6 are all loaded... Which I think is very much unlikely


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

chromedog said:


> It's more than just federal US law.
> 
> It's a general principle by ALL of the casinos, globally.
> 
> ...


I think i'm going to have to call bullshit on that then. I cannot find anything which suggests that round cornered dice would behave in a significantly different way to hard edged dice. Irregularly shaped rounded dice is a different matter entirely. 

Casino Dice are made they way they are due to Federal Law in the US as they are not made like that in Asia for instance. The faces are drilled and filled to make as close to perfect dice as possible to avoid claims of bias. Most Casinos around the world follow suit as Casino dice are close to perfect and easy to buy. 

Aramoro


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Marneus Calgar said:


> A dice is a dice, doesn't matter what size...
> 
> 
> The only way you will roll less ones is if 2,3,4,5,6 are all loaded... Which I think is very much unlikely


Not really. Manufacturing inconsistancies will generally create a certain amount of bias in any die (casino dice are clear so that air bubble inconsistancies are easily spotted and the die can be discarded). But for the vast majority of the time a die is close enough to a random number generator for a game of toy soldiers.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Aramoro said:


> I think i'm going to have to call bullshit on that then. I cannot find anything which suggests that round cornered dice would behave in a significantly different way to hard edged dice. Irregularly shaped rounded dice is a different matter entirely.
> 
> Casino Dice are made they way they are due to Federal Law in the US as they are not made like that in Asia for instance. The faces are drilled and filled to make as close to perfect dice as possible to avoid claims of bias. Most Casinos around the world follow suit as Casino dice are close to perfect and easy to buy.
> 
> Aramoro


Gambling is a multi billion dollar industry in the US. The law is there to make sure the casino dice are as close to random as can be, ergo, it seems fairly obvious that someone has done the study to conclude that square dice bounced off something are the most random.


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## Whizzwang (Dec 31, 2008)

http://casinogambling.about.com/od/craps/a/diceset.htm


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

OddJob said:


> Gambling is a multi billion dollar industry in the US. The law is there to make sure the casino dice are as close to random as can be, ergo, it seems fairly obvious that someone has done the study to conclude that square dice bounced off something are the most random.


The most random, or the easiest to determine the consistent nature of. Its far easier to see if something is a perfect hard edged cube than a perfect rounded cube. 

Like I say I would be interested to see the mathematical proof for this because it interests me. Assuming that such a proof exists and it's not simply 'common knowledge' 

Aramoro


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## equitypetey (Jun 28, 2010)

i know everyone is calling bullshit on this but:

my problem with them is not the dice them selves but that when you have a crowded battle field you don't have space to "roll" them and they always end up just being dropped and can be done in such a way to not look like cheating wheter you intend to or not.

people can call bullshit all they like but at the end of the day why use stupid big dice? why not use the same dice as everyone else?

"hey look at me i'm only going to use big dice to make up for my little wincky"

i always think in situations like this stop bitching that people are bitching, you look like a dick rolling dice like that anyway! especially if when you have to roll 20 dice for a unit and your re-rolling what like 6 dice a few times, just get on with the game and roll them all at once!


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## DonFer (Apr 23, 2010)

Next time your friend complains, use those big furry dies some people use to "pimp" their cars, oh and make them pink for some additional annoyance :grin:


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

use teeny tiny dice, so small you have to squint to see the nimbers, see if he complaines then


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## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

I'm with equity on this.

I usually try and use the smallest dice I can so that I can minimize the risk of big, heavy dice bouncing across the table and smashing into the models. My preference is the size like the ones GW sells. They're small enough to present a minimal threat to the models on the table but big enough to be easy to read. I don't even like dice the size of the ones that come in your typical Monopoly game.

Having said that, I have caught my opponent in this game as well as others dropping dice on the face they want and I can tell you the smaller ones are much harder to do that with.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Thing is in our game we had a large area to roll, we have a large table with spare room for dice rolling and it's done there. I bought a GW product I should be allowed to use them in a GW game. The really annoying part was he's claiming this about my vehicle cover saves, I had to take 9 saves and made 8 of them in one turn. He forgets to mention that in 3 assault phases my terminators killed a grand total of 3 models. And they were just fenrisian wolves. That part never comes under suspicion but when I roll well I'm cheating. Would you like to be called cheating for using something that fits in with your theme? I have a large measuring tape that's red and black too, because it's so big should I get rid of that too?? 

And by the way they're larger than usual because I'm under compensating for my massive wang


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Lord Reevan said:


> I bought a GW product I should be allowed to use them in a GW game.


oh dear, I'm afraid that reasoning is complete rubbish to allot of people these days, so don't expect it to act as a decent defence, I should know *sighs*


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

I use the Scatter and two normals from the Big Gun Dice tin for my Scatter rolls (Templates/DS) and then those weird tiny dice GW sells in cubes for everything else; using diferent colours to represent different weapons; no one has complained about that yet.

Just throw one at his head everytime he complains and tell him to stop being anal 

SGMAlice

P.S. Violence solves nothing kids! :biggrin:


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## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

Lord Reevan said:


> And by the way they're larger than usual because I'm under compensating for my massive wang


+rep for you for making me actually laugh out loud. I needed that this morning. :thank_you:


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## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

they are 6 sided?
They all way the same?
They are a perfect cube?

Then what the F#@kign problem. Slap the whiny bitch upside the head....or better yet make him swallow one of them.


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## Farseer_Iowan (Jun 25, 2010)

my thoughts...If he complains about the dice 

1. say you will stop using them if he buys you a new set...
2. go in and buy two sets of dice (different colors) and use them as "pool" dice, which means you each can only use those dice....(go in means each puts in money for these dice) 
3. Quit playing him for awhile... 
4. I like the sock full of dice method for beating annoying ass people that bitch because they are losing... because if you offer the other 3 items and he is still bitching then he needs a parking lot class...


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## Pasta (Aug 1, 2010)

I was suprised how hard it is to find big dice :search:
:grin: http://www.teambuildingshop.com/acatalog/Giant_Dice2.html







[/URL] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]

Even though it is £130 it would be worth every penny for your friends facial expression. (please buy and photo it )


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

What moron is going to send £170 on a big dice?


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## JackalMJ (Nov 12, 2009)

Saw a guy spend $10,000 on a World of Warcraft character (which Blizzard then banned later). In comparsion $170 pound on a dice is kinda cheap. Face it race idoits exist, sadly we are not one of them.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Vaz said:


> What moron is going to send £170 on a big dice?


Correction morons are the people who buy these sorts of things - it's how that got that title in the first place.


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## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

It's a lot easier to palm casino dice (square edges) than it is cheesex/koplow dice (rounded edges). Casino dice are 16mm whilst most cheesex/koplow dice are 12mm so your friend might be mixing the aspects up. If you take a bigger die and roll it properly, there's no difference (though there are some who believe cheesex/GW dice roll more 1s). To roll properly you've got to make sure you really roll it (see craps at a casino) which on a gaming table generally isn't always possible.

In the end it only matters if they are square-edged dice and if they are being dropped or rolled. If they are being dropped, ya that's an issue because it's very easy to 'encourage' your dice to land on the result you wish. If not, then no biggie.


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## Farseer_Iowan (Jun 25, 2010)

@ Vaz... You say what moron will pay 170 for big dice but GW keeps uping there prices and we keep shelling out money... whats that saying a fool born everyday, and twice on days ending with y


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## Pasta (Aug 1, 2010)

Overpriced as it is I think I like the giant dice. You would have to be a moron to pay that much for It I would agree though.

@Farseer - Agreed about the prices.. It is already overpriced as it is.

Citadel colour paints £2.25. They are very watered down acrylic and only 12ml. I bet you can get 60-150ml paint tubes that are less watered down and better quality elsewhere for a similar or lower price. 

Back on topic, a dice is a dice as long as it is less than 2-3cm squared or so and not weighted I don't see a problem. If your friend has a problem then he should buy you a new set of dice as said above.


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

If you do get that massive dice, save it for a special occassion. 
Something like an Apocalypse Battle where he's fielding a shed load of ultra-fragile, ultra-expensive Forgeworld Resin models...

...And then throw it right down his deployment line as hard as you fucking can!

...And then tell him it's twin-linked...


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Pasta said:


> I was suprised how hard it is to find big dice :search:
> :grin: http://www.teambuildingshop.com/acatalog/Giant_Dice2.html
> 
> 
> ...


I just put in my order, should take 2 weeks to get them  I bought 3


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## Gunstar (Feb 25, 2009)

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65531

worth a look i feel- someone who actually took the time...


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

The problem with square vegas dice is that they cost like 30$ for 2. This is not really something I can afford. Id rather buy 100 dice that may have 5% misscast rate.


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

Thanks for the article Gunstar, its good to know that my monopoly dice are statistically more random than the GW ones, less so now that I bought a pack of GW's last week.


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