# Tyranids and the Eye of Terror



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

So what would happen if a Tyranid Hive Fleet flew into the Eye of Terror? 

I am leaving that question open to every possible interpretation, seeing how there can be many different answers.


----------



## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

It is a very good question, and one that has been asked across the Warhammer 40k spectrum. Certainly with their deadly ability to evolve to adapt to any enviroment and overcome any enemy they would be all the more deadly. we could even consider they may already have had access to the Warp on their long journey from their distant home galaxy. We could argue that the psychic communication used as their primary form of Command and Unity was developed by Warp contact untold gazillions of millenia ago. 

To allow the Nids to adapt to the Warp would be to invite certainy doom for both Chaos and Imperium. The individual organisms would probably all develop psychic latency/abilities that would give them a huge advantage over conventional forces. I think if a thing ever become reality that all the Chaos Gods would squirm in their thrones a bit. Plus with that power they could easily accelerate and further develop their biomass collection system(imagine a psychic shock that could kill an entire planet in one go). 

At any rate I think forces would act to prevent sucha catastrohpy from occuring. Evemn the Gods would step in to the fray. For all intent and purposes though it would most certainly make quite the interesting story.


----------



## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

The other consideration is biomass to consume and replenish the hive fleet. Tyranids would be in a hostile environment, where the laws of physics obey their enemies.

While there are certainly living mortal creatures in the eye, any of the daemons in the fray would be inflicting damage, would be swiftly resurrected, and if the Tyranids tried to eat the daemons they wouldn't get any nourishment.

Sounds like the eye/warp wouldn't be on the tyranids visiting list.


----------



## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Not to mention that there is only Chaos God in particular that could ruin a lot of the Tyranid's plans. That being Nurgle -- his plagues would be nearly impossible to adapt to since the Tyranids do not instantly mutate, but rather do so in waves.

Tzeentch would be another problem since he is the God of Change.

The only hope the Tyranids would have is their Shadow in the Warp where they could possibly weaken the hold of the Warp on parts of the Eye of Terror, allowing "reality" to exert its influence over it just enough for the Tyranid's biomass-driven evolution to be relatively unaffected by the Gods. But then you'd just have the Hive Fleet driving endlessly into the Warp, ever pushing onwards. To the Hive Mind there is probably little point to this idea.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

IIRC a Tyranid fleet went through the EoT/a warp storm and came out disoriented and I believe mutated.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

There have been a couple of throw-away examples in the lore of Tyranid Hive Fleets being infected by Nurgle's Rot or other warp plagues. 

Moving into the Eye of Terror wouldn't end well for the Tyranids. Their ability to sustain themselves via biomass would be heavily impeded given that most worlds and inhabitants of the Eye are corrupted (I can't imagine trying to consume a Daemon World ending well). 

Aside from that the daemonic legions can freely exist within the Eye so the Tyranids would potentially be up against infinite daemons. 

I can't envisage any situation that would benefit the Tyranids from entering the Eye.


----------



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Completely unrelated question, but....

Would it be possible for there to be a Genestealer infestation in Commorragh?


----------



## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

They would be beaten, biomass is simply all corrupted and therefore useless as food, the genetics/physics and chemistry makes no sense.

However, you could say (Given how they kill eldar using psychic tyranids) that they could conceivably adapt to even that unadaptable environment and actually turn it to their advantage.

whatever happens, im sure at the very least the imperium would eventually suffer no matter who won.


----------



## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

SoL Berzerker said:


> Would it be possible for there to be a Genestealer infestation in Commorragh?


Oh completely. All living creatures have biomass; regardless of what race, ability, psychic latency, or enviroment they come from.I'm not sure if the Tyranid Hive Mind would be able to navigate the Webway but, if by some sheer chance of luck, they did Commorragh would be destroyed in a matetr of months. 

Trapped inside their own world the Nids would easily surround and kill the Dark Eldar. To their advantage the Dark Eldar love close combat, something the Nids excel at, and would eat them piecemeal. It would be a sweet, ironic end to the Dark side of Eldar history.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

emporershand89 said:


> I'm not sure if the Tyranid Hive Mind would be able to navigate the Webway but, if by some sheer chance of luck, they did Commorragh would be destroyed in a matetr of months.


Unlikely. The Dark City has endured gargantuan daemonic incursions and worse. Vect (seemingly) has the capability to isolate and remove sections of the City as it benefits him. Remember, Commorragh is not a linear City with physical dimensions it is effectively made up of nodes spread throughout the webway linked by gates. A genestealer infestation could be isolated and removed.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Unlikely. The Dark City has endured gargantuan daemonic incursions and worse. Vect (seemingly) has the capability to isolate and remove sections of the City as it benefits him. Remember, Commorragh is not a linear City with physical dimensions it is effectively made up of nodes spread throughout the webway linked by gates. A genestealer infestation could be isolated and removed.


Additionally assuming one ever even took hold. Eldar reproduction takes significantly longer than human, and would likely be detected immediately and removed/exploited by the haemonculi. 

As for other races, I doubt the dark eldar would have any qualms about removing these the easy way.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

emporershand89 said:


> All living creatures have biomass;


C'tan, plus necrons and daemons depending your definition.


----------



## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

I wonder the impact the Hive Mind would have in the Eye, considering the shadow on the warp thing. Would this interfere with the free-reign of daemons within the Warp to renew, or possibly be a strong enough mental presence that the Hive Mind would be effectively a minor Warp God?

The physical side of the struggle is one significant aspect, but the huge mental presence of the Hive Mind would be another dynamic that doesn't sound like has been explored yet.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> There have been a couple of throw-away examples in the lore of Tyranid Hive Fleets being infected by Nurgle's Rot or other warp plagues.
> 
> Moving into the Eye of Terror wouldn't end well for the Tyranids. Their ability to sustain themselves via biomass would be heavily impeded given that most worlds and inhabitants of the Eye are corrupted (I can't imagine trying to consume a Daemon World ending well).
> 
> ...


This makes me rethink a lot of things. 





*Fall of Shadowbrink* 

The Fall of Shadowbrink was a battle waged by the Imperium on the Cathedral World of Shadowbrink during the Third Tyrannic War in 854998.M41.[1]

Overview

As Hive Fleet Leviathan drifted across Imperial territory, they soon reached the Cathedral World of Shadowbrink. The planetary government was reluctant to evacuate the world, for beneath Shadowbrink's capital of Rossov there was concealed a terrible secret. A ring of obscene archeotech from the Dark Age of Technology remained intact, dubbed the Maelstrom Cradle by Inquisition authorities. 

Thus, a permanent garrison of Grey Knights had been assigned to stand sentry over it, performing daily rituals of warding while their Librarians worked to seal the potential Daemonic rift. However with the onset of Hive Fleet Leviathan, it appeared the Grey Knights had run out of time. Yet their leader, Brother-Librarian Cadulon, could not permit evacuation while the chance of Daemonic incursion remained. Employing his exclusive authority, Cadulon instructed Shadowbrink's Governor to refuse the order to evacuate his peoeple, instead commanding the defenses of his world.[1]

Due to Shadowbrink's importance, it did not stand defenseless. Alongside the world's Grey Knights, PDF, and Frateris Militia were two Cadian and one Vostroyan Regiments of the Imperial Guard. In orbit, Shadowbrink had three orbital defense platforms and six Cobra Class Destroyers for protection. However faced with an overwhelming assault, the orbital defenses of Shadowbrink were only able to hold out for three hours against the Tyranids. With the space above Shadowbrink clear, billions of Tyranids began to descend on the world, overrunning trenches and annihilating nearly every major settlement and city. 

Soon enough, the Tyranids were approaching the Maelstrom Cradle itself.[1]
The Grey Knights deployed a pair of Dreadknights to meet the Tyranids, yet not even this was enough to stem the Tyranid tide. The Grey Knights, despite their efforts, were overwhelmed along with their Imperial Guard and PDF allies. At this point, the runes of the Maelstrom began to activate, gorged on the souls of the millions of humans dying around it. 

A Warp Rift opened up, and from it spilled vile Daemonic hordes. The Daemons were led by the dreaded Quadrifold Abominatium, a team of four Greater Daemons: the Great Unclean One Shub'Luth'Gug, the Bloodthirster Hak'Vasha, the Lord of Change K'rix'xi'kra, and the Keeper of Secrets Lesh'Jae'Thi'Hah. However almost immediately, the Daemonic advance began to fail when they discovered few Imperials left alive on Shadowbrink, driving the Daemon Lords into frustration at the lack of victims and souls to corrupt. However the Quadrifold decided to instead drive the Tyranids from Shadowbrink before turning their attention to the greater Imperium.[1]

Up until this point the Hive Mind had utterly ignored the Daemonic forces due to their lack of consumable biomass. However this changed when a massive Impossible Fortress rose from beneath Rossov, holding millions of Daemons. The threat became too great for the Hive Mind to ignore, and combat between the Great Devourer and Ruinous Powers erupted. The Tyranids eventually controlled the plains around Rossov before launching an all-out offensive at the ruins of the city itself. However the Daemons unleashed a storm of bile and blood which turned the ground to muck, bogging down the Tyranids. Daemonic chariots swooped in on their trapped foes, as Furies and Plague Drones attacked from above. 

However the Hive Mind quickly adapted, throwing everything they had to distract the Warpspawn while swarms of Rippers rapidly consumed biomass elsewhere on Shadowbrink. This biomass was used to create swarms of Exocrines and Biovores which were in turn used to unleash devastating volleys of artillery to contain the Daemonic advance. Tervigons and the Termagants they unleashed were then deployed to launch a counter-attack through sheer attrition. The Great Unclean One Shub'Luth'Gug attempted to break the deadlock and push through, but his psychic abilities were smothered by the Shadow in the Warp. Moments later, the huge Daemon was blown apart by Zoanthropes.[1]

With the defeat of one of their own, the Daemon Lords of the Abominatum realized the nature of the battle had changed. No blood was being spilled for Khorne, just putrid alien ichor. All of Nurgles diseases were ineffective in the face of Tyranid adaptation. The deadlock went on for days, and the Lord of Change K'rix'xi'kra blasted its way back to the Malestrom Cradle to abandon the effort. The two remaining Daemon Lords then led a final mad charge against the Tyranids. However the Hive Mind had by this point absorbed their opponents strategies, using Tyrannofexes and Trygons to meet them. The Daemonic lines soon collapsed, and as the Bloodthirster Hak'Vasha was dragged back into the Warp he was still wrestling with three Trygons. The last of the Daemons had been defeated, and the Hive Mind now turned its attention to the rest of Shadowbrink.[1]

_Sources_

1: Codex: Tyranids (6th Edition) (E-Book Edition) - The Fall of Shadowbrink


http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Fall_of_Shadowbrink#.U0LZPahX-ub


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> This makes me rethink a lot of things.


In what way?


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> In what way?


Numbers against numbers, the Tyranids won against even famous Daemons. Their Zoanthropes in addition to their Shadow in the Warp ability wrecked havoc amongst the daemonic forces apparently.


----------



## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> IIRC a Tyranid fleet went through the EoT/a warp storm and came out disoriented and I believe mutated.


Source? This would be really interesting if I could lend it more than apocryphal weight...


As I recall, at the Fall of Medusa V event several years back (when Death Leaper was introduced), the Hive Mind abandoned its vessels in orbit around Medusa V while the warp storm enveloped the system. So we do have at least one instance of a Hive Fleet being trapped in the warp, but no word as to how it fared. Images of daemonically possessed hive ships dance like sugar-plum fairies through my head, certainly, but... no guarantees.

As a whole, though, I thought that hive fleets steer clear of warp storms in general, like they tend to Necron Tomb Worlds too.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Mossy Toes said:


> Source? This would be really interesting if I could lend it more than apocryphal weight...
> 
> 
> As I recall, at the Fall of Medusa V event several years back (when Death Leaper was introduced), the Hive Mind abandoned its vessels in orbit around Medusa V while the warp storm enveloped the system. So we do have at least one instance of a Hive Fleet being trapped in the warp, but no word as to how it fared. Images of daemonically possessed hive ships dance like sugar-plum fairies through my head, certainly, but... no guarantees.
> ...


I either came across it via the codex or randomly on the lexicanum. I was hoping CoTE would provide a source.


----------



## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

That is a really stupid story. No personal offense intended, Malus.

The hive "evolved" to defeat Nurgle's diseases? I call bullshit, even if it is in the codex. The whole point of Nurgle's diseases are that they aren't natural. Evolution doesn't help. No "natural" disease causes you to become massively hungry and explode into mounds of nurglings. No "natural" disease kills you and turns you into a warp animated zombie.

And suddenly Khorne doesn't want skulls and blood (ichor) because they're from tyranids? Again bullshit. Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, only that it flows.

The other difference is that a single world 'out there in the galaxy' isn't the same as a world in the eye of terror. The entire fabric of reality is bathed in the empyrean in the eye of terror. I suspect the effect of the shadow in the warp would be much diminished by the ambient and really available power of chaos.


----------



## incinerator950 (Mar 23, 2014)

There's a log in the Chaos codex that literally has a Skull champion hunting nids for a new source of skulls. 

In Demon World, they were using captured gaunts as slave miners alongside humans and a variety of other xenos. 

Fall of Medusa V results showed that the Hive Mind cut its losses and left the Tyranid fleet adrift, while the Imperium captured the Lictor specimen it arrived to take.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Kreuger said:


> That is a really stupid story. No personal offense intended, Malus.
> 
> The hive "evolved" to defeat Nurgle's diseases? I call bullshit, even if it is in the codex. The whole point of Nurgle's diseases are that they aren't natural. Evolution doesn't help. No "natural" disease causes you to become massively hungry and explode into mounds of nurglings. No "natural" disease kills you and turns you into a warp animated zombie.
> 
> ...


I know. The Nurgle bit got to me because like you said, it has nothing to do with natural biology/evolution and the same with the Khorne bit.


----------



## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Kreuger said:


> That is a really stupid story. No personal offense intended, Malus.
> 
> The hive "evolved" to defeat Nurgle's diseases? I call bullshit, even if it is in the codex. The whole point of Nurgle's diseases are that they aren't natural. Evolution doesn't help. No "natural" disease causes you to become massively hungry and explode into mounds of nurglings. No "natural" disease kills you and turns you into a warp animated zombie.
> 
> ...


I think Malus forgot the include the ending of the story.

All of a sudden the entire ultramarine chapter and their successors commanded by magnus calagar arrived and curb stomped the nids and sealed the warp rift within the span of two hours.


----------



## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Bwa haha. Uh huh. 
Calgar ex machina.


----------



## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> This makes me rethink a lot of things.


Indeed, quite a story. I do find it a little hard to beleive that a Carnifex's took down a Daemonic Prince or two. However the idea of the Zoans interfering with the psychic abiltiies of the daemons is something I can see, even lends credit to certain theories regarding the Nid evolution cycle.



Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Would this interfere with the free-reign of daemons within the Warp to renew, or possibly be a strong enough mental presence that the Hive Mind would be effectively a minor Warp God?


From my understanding Two Meters Tall the "Shadow in the Warp," that a Hive Mind generates is more like an EMP pulse that is given off due to the Minds high psychic latency. Using all that "Mental Enegry," to command the billions upon billions of creatures makes it like a shinning beacon in the Warp. 

Therefore I feel that while the Shadow would create a "Psychic Free," area within the warp, which would give the Nids an edge against any Choas foes they meet, that ultimately the Choas Gods would over-power this ability. However this is something that only GW and the Writers can answer.



Serpion5 said:


> C'tan, plus necrons and daemons depending your definition


C'Tan yes, daemons maybe, Necrons no. Necrons are made of a living metals, but metal nonetheless. They could easily be killed and consumed by the Hive Mind to future processing. It would be interesting to see what the Nids create using the Guass technology of the Necrons. 

However this does not explain why the Tyranid Fleets have been avoiding the Necrons like a plague for the last 3 major assaults upon the galaxy. This is a question I personally would love to see answered.



Kreuger said:


> Khorne doesn't want skulls and blood (ichor) because they're from tyranids


Really? Last I checked Khorne is a human emotion given birth because of the inner-nature of all humanity; same with Nurgle and Tzeetch. Thus if the Tyranids are not creatures that give the Choas Gods power then perhaps they are seen as outside the wanting eye of Choas. It's not that hard to see this being possible, though I would agree the writers need to put a few novels out there explaining this fully. 



Kreuger said:


> I call bullshit, even if it is in the codex.


As I said above, it is quite feasible. The Hive Mind studied the Physical, Biological, and Chemical reactions and events that surround the life and death of it's creatures that make up the whole. Therefore you could say that the Mind would notice if hundreds and thousands of it's Warriors started popping into Nurglings. 

IMHO it would study this, find out the physical aspect to it, and create creaturew with the ability to counter it. The Mind is the ultimate Evolution Machine, and I can easily see it combating the powers of Choas by adapting it's own "Biological Strategem."


----------



## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

I continue to disagree strongly. 

Khorne may be born of the desire to let blood and vent rage, feelings intrinsically alien to tyranids, but that doesn't have anything to do with the act of killing tyranids. They have blood. They have skulls. Both may be offered to Khorne.

Like wise Nurgle's diseases aren't always corporeal. A supernatural disease would require a supernatural adaption, not an evolutionary one.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> There have been a couple of throw-away examples in the lore of Tyranid Hive Fleets being infected by Nurgle's Rot or other warp plagues.
> 
> Moving into the Eye of Terror wouldn't end well for the Tyranids. Their ability to sustain themselves via biomass would be heavily impeded given that most worlds and inhabitants of the Eye are corrupted (I can't imagine trying to consume a Daemon World ending well).
> 
> ...


As always, the CotE speaks true. Nids in the warp is a loss of Bio Mass to the Nids. I think it was a Grey Knight codex that mentions Nurgle corrupting a whole fleet once.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Kreuger said:


> I continue to disagree strongly.
> 
> Khorne may be born of the desire to let blood and vent rage, feelings intrinsically alien to tyranids, but that doesn't have anything to do with the act of killing tyranids. They have blood. They have skulls. Both may be offered to Khorne.
> 
> Like wise Nurgle's diseases aren't always corporeal. A supernatural disease would require a supernatural adaption, not an evolutionary one.


I believe its because individually the Tyranids lack personalities or even souls.

They only have character as a whole species.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

emporershand89 said:


> C'Tan yes, daemons maybe, Necrons no. Necrons are made of a living metals, but metal nonetheless. They could easily be killed and consumed by the Hive Mind to future processing. It would be interesting to see what the Nids create using the Guass technology of the Necrons. However this does not explain why the Tyranid Fleets have been avoiding the Necrons like a plague for the last 3 major assaults upon the galaxy. This is a question I personally would love to see answered.


Living metal is a name given to describe the metal's regenerative properties. It is no more living than any other metal or rock. Necrons cannot be absorbed in any way by the tyranids, and there is certainly no way tyranids could ever utilize gauss technology. That's just foolish.



Kreuger said:


> Khorne may be born of the desire to let blood and vent rage, feelings intrinsically alien to tyranids, but that doesn't have anything to do with the act of killing tyranids. They have blood. They have skulls. Both may be offered to Khorne.


Tyranids have ichor, not blood. And it could be arfued that they have exoskeletons, not skulls. 

In any case, the current tyranid codex lays this to rest. A daemonic incursion occurs on a planet being consumed by the tyranids. At first the daemons' natural superiority gives them the edge, but the lack of real psychic energy to feed on eventually causes them to lose their strength and be defeated. 

_Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull Throne!_ 

This is all well and good, but take into account the third line of this phrase; 

_Souls for the Soul Eater!_

The act of spilling blood and taking skulls offers up the souls, or psychic energy, of the slain for the daemons of Khorne and their patron to feed. The tyranids do not have souls to give, so these acts against them contribute nothing.

It may have been something if these had been mortal servants of Khorne who could relish the act, but the daemons themselves would not be able to feed off their own energies would they? And with the tyranids having no souls to give, the daemons' starvation and defeat was inevitable.


----------



## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

In all the years of playing warhammer (more than 20) I have never heard that 3rd line and find it highly suspect (or a more recent addition, just as suspect).

Serp, in all honesty I just disagree, I'm not debating. I have no intention of changing my mind. In other words, no need to take time to convince me - if you want to try for others go for it, but I don't want to waste your time.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Kreuger said:


> In all the years of playing warhammer (more than 20) I have never heard that 3rd line and find it highly suspect (or a more recent addition, just as suspect).


It was added, as were many things, by BL authors for reasons I don't fully understand but which provide expansion on a flimsy idea nonetheless. 



Kreuger said:


> Serp, in all honesty I just disagree, I'm not debating. I have no intention of changing my mind. In other words, no need to take time to convince me - if you want to try for others go for it, but I don't want to waste your time.


And you wonder why it doesn't make sense? 

In all honesty, your approach to interpreting fluff is garbage, but thanks. I too, will stop wasting my time at this point. :so_happy:


----------



## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Fair enough. In most cases I'm more than happy to engage in a dialectic to discover a more clear version of the setting. 

In this case I'm being old and stodgy (and I know it) which is why I don't want to waste your time.


----------



## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Kreuger said:


> I have never heard that 3rd line and find it highly suspect


I have seen this line since the "Gaunt's Ghost" series. I beleive it was a frenzied Cultist warrior that shouted that at Rawne before he blew his head off during the Siege of Vervun Hive. In any case I am going to check on this, but i know i have heard those three lines in sync before.



Serpion5 said:


> It may have been something if these had been mortal servants of Khorne who could relish the act, but the daemons themselves would not be able to feed off their own energies would they? And with the tyranids having no souls to give, the daemons' starvation and defeat was inevitable.


They would not have feed anyway. As I said before Khorne was created mainly from a "HUMAN," emotion. Therefore he requires Blood, not Ichor. He needs Souls, not Base Instinct. He also needs an intelligent enemy for his warriors to fight, not a creature that is driven by a general collective. It would be like the Borg trying to Assimilate the Undine from Star Trek.....it just wouldn't happen. 



Serpion5 said:


> Living metal is a name given to describe the metal's regenerative properties. It is no more living than any other metal or rock. Necrons cannot be absorbed in any way by the tyranids, and there is certainly no way tyranids could ever utilize gauss technology. That's just foolish.


It's still physical mass though right? The Necrons Warriors are "Constructs," as their own Codex calls them, and that they are made of metal. Ja? 

If it looks like a Chicken, walks like a Chicken, it is a Chicken Serpion. I think whole heartedly the3 Nids would consume it, and probably put the unique metal to some interesting uses. I mean they consumed Leman Russes during the Battle of Macragge, and they started pumping out Carnifex's with some near invincible armor plating. 

What I would ask, and perhaps you know the answer, is why the Nids seem to avoid them? Why do the Hive Minds take drastic steps to steer entire fleets away from Necron Tomb Worlds? Have they fought them before, or do they recognize the threat they present?



Warlock in Training said:


> Nids in the warp is a loss of Bio Mass to the Nids.


This is true, but what is the difference between Pure and Corrupt Biomass??? Really it's material either way



Kreuger said:


> Like wise Nurgle's diseases aren't always corporeal. A supernatural disease would require a supernatural adaption, not an evolutionary one


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

emporershand89 said:


> If it looks like a Chicken, walks like a Chicken, it is a Chicken Serpion. I think whole heartedly the3 Nids would consume it, and probably put the unique metal to some interesting uses. I mean they consumed Leman Russes during the Battle of Macragge, and they started pumping out Carnifex's with some near invincible armor plating.


That's plain stupid. A terminator walks like a human, talks like a human but it isn't human. It's the same with living metal. Tyranids cannot make full use of nonliving matter and I have never read of these invincible iron carnifexes. 



emporershand89 said:


> What I would ask, and perhaps you know the answer, is why the Nids seem to avoid them? Why do the Hive Minds take drastic steps to steer entire fleets away from Necron Tomb Worlds? Have they fought them before, or do they recognize the threat they present?


Necrons are terrifyingly efficient, feel little if any fear and have a level of technology that every other race envies. They are the polar opposite of tyranids in terms of life vs technology, and exploit the one weakness that tyranids have. If the bugs have encountered them before, they know this. 

The bugs must feed in order to survive and replenish their numbers. The necrons can mine a planet hollow and tear apart the ruins of their own and their enemies machines to regenerate. 

The necrons' gauss and tesla technology render living matter to nonexistence or a charred mess, making it difficult to impossible for tyranids to replenish their numbers in a protraced fight against them. 

Additionally, the necrons have demonstrated a level of technology allowing them to disrupt psychic energies, something the tyranids are heavily reliant on.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

emporershand89 said:


> This is true, but what is the difference between Pure and Corrupt Biomass??? Really it's material either way


It has more to do with the fact their is no real Bio Mass in the eye of terror. Everything their is Warp Born or Made except the few living humans, space marines, ect there. When a Demon dies, it disintegrates in a puff od smoke or fire on most fluff and video games. What is there to consume for the Nids? entire worlds of blood made of warp stuff? Entire world of already dead orks remade from the warp to please a Khorn Daemon Prince? There is very little Bio Mass in the Eye. Meanwhile the Nids will be losing tons of Bio Mas in the process.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> The tyranids do not have souls to give,


A little iffy here. What really is a soul? How do we know Tyranids lack a soul, anyway?

Plus I think you may be taking the whole blood and skulls thing too literally.

I mean, if there was a forge world where all the adepts removed their skulls and put their brains in their torso (like Krang from TMNT) and replaced their blood with sacred oils...do you think the followers of Khorne would walk by? I think not.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

hailene said:


> A little iffy here. What really is a soul? How do we know Tyranids lack a soul, anyway?


A soul is described in the context of 40k as psychic or emotional energy. Wecan be pretty confident that tyranids do not experience emotions as humans would understand, the the lore concerning the Hive Mind makes it apparent that individual creatures have little if no bearing on the state of the Hive Mind itself, which is the repository of all tyranid consciousness after all. 

It stands to reason that no individual tyranid has the sort of energy to give that a Chaos God wants. Only if you could attack the Hive Mind directly would you be on the right track. 



hailene said:


> Plus I think you may be taking the whole blood and skulls thing too literally. I mean, if there was a forge world where all the adepts removed their skulls and put their brains in their torso (like Krang from TMNT) and replaced their blood with sacred oils...do you think the followers of Khorne would walk by? I think not.


Actually, I'm not taking it literally at all. It's all about the emotions involved moreso than the act, because that is what the daemons require to draw strength. The daemons are able to feed off the energy of those they slay, it's what makes them one of the most feared forces in the galaxy. Mortal followers likewise provide this energy by their deeds, due to the emotions the feel during the acts they commit. 

Daemons require energy to act, and they expend it during the act, the opposite of the above effect. For a daemon incursion to sustain itself, it requires mortal victims with souls, ie: emotions, for them to feed off. 

If the tyranids have no individual emotions, no fear on which to feed, then it wouldn't matter whether they have blood or ichor, skulls or carapace. There is simply no energy for the daemons to feed off, and as such it is a losing battle for Chaos. 

If this was set in the Eye of Terror or some other warp heavy area, the daemons would have near limitless energy to draw from and the advantage would easily be theirs.


----------



## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> The bugs must feed in order to survive and replenish their numbers. The necrons can mine a planet hollow and tear apart the ruins of their own and their enemies machines to regenerate.
> 
> The necrons' gauss and tesla technology render living matter to nonexistence or a charred mess, making it difficult to impossible for tyranids to replenish their numbers in a protraced fight against them.
> 
> Additionally, the necrons have demonstrated a level of technology allowing them to disrupt psychic energies, something the tyranids are heavily reliant on.


I see, and thank you for the explanation. I agree that if this would probably cause the Nids to run away. If that's true then has anyone ever heard/read of a Necron/Nid fight? What were the results?



Serpion5 said:


> A terminator


A Terminator...you sure. I'm pretty positive their is a living human being there. Reprocess the metallics and, using genetics and Matter Recontrustion (something the Nids excel at) they could us the metal for building Bio-ships.

I think you really underestimate the power of Nature that the Nids control Serpion. Necrons or not they consume everything.....EVERYTHING......on a planet and put it to use.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

No, they do not. 

There are examples of admech worlds and outposts stripped of organics with all metals and machine parts left behind. They don't, can't, just eat anything.


----------



## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> There are examples of admech worlds and outposts stripped of organics with all metals and machine parts left behind. They don't, can't, just eat anything.


Really, source? Being a long-time Nid fan I'd like to read this as I've never heard of it. The usual description is that the planet is stripped down to the rocks and foundation (a.k.a dirt). If there are metals being left I'd love t hear when and how.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

emporershand89 said:


> Really, source? Being a long-time Nid fan I'd like to read this as I've never heard of it. The usual description is that the planet is stripped down to the rocks and foundation (a.k.a dirt). If there are metals being left I'd love t hear when and how.


Warriors of Ultramar, and I believe one of the Cain novels shows this as well.


----------



## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Cain novels shows this as well.


Would that happen to be the latest Cain novel; the one involving the Tau? I have yet ot read it but I am interested to see how it plays out. I don't remember reading of it in Warriors of Ultrmar, but I will double check as it has been some time since I read the book. 

In any case I just cannot see the Nids leaving anything other than rocks and earth behind. They have consumed quite a few opponents and created quite a few special creatures to adapt to the ever-chaning battlefield.

For example the "Doom of Malan'tai" from HF Medusa, a Zoan that was adapted to extreme proportions and even was noted for having gorwn a natural "Hood," to help it feed on the souls of it's prey. this was probably from the high number of Imperial psyker the Hive Mind ingested and put to good use. "Old One Eye" from HF Behemoth that is siad to continue to ravange Calth to this very day. It's ability to regenerate itself even after having taken mortal wounds is something that is akin to a Space Marines ability to regenerate from taking normal wounds that would kill any normal human. Perhaps the "Red Terror" perhaps, which was adapted to fight in the tunnels of the mining world of Delvan. I'm sure the Hive Mind had to absorb some minerals, or mining equiptment, and deduced that sucha creature would make the perfect killing machine. 

Just saying, I cannot see the Nid leaving anything of Biomass, or genetic value on a planet. But I suppose I'll end this here as it's more my perspective at this point less of an actual debate.


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

emporershand89 said:


> For example the "Doom of Malan'tai" from HF Medusa, a Zoan that was adapted to extreme proportions and even was noted for having gorwn a natural "Hood," to help it feed on the souls of it's prey. this was probably from the high number of Imperial psyker the Hive Mind ingested and put to good use.


Yeah...

The Doom of Malan'tai was part of hive fleet Naga, not Medusa, and it became so powerful (and got its name) by absorbing souls from Malan'tai's infinity circuit. This led to it becoming so powerful that the Eldar could do nothing to stop it.

Zoanthropes in general are created from Eldar DNA, due to their high psychic ability.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

emporershand89 said:


> Just saying, I cannot see the Nid leaving anything of Biomass, or genetic value on a planet. But I suppose I'll end this here as it's more my perspective at this point less of an actual debate.


Well, that's because they don't. Metals, "living" or otherwise have no genetic value and are not biomass. Therefore they have no worth to the tyranids, who will simply leave it behind along with all other inorganic matter they cannot use.


----------



## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

darkreever said:


> The Doom of Malan'tai was part of hive fleet Naga, not Medusa, and it became so powerful (and got its name) by absorbing souls from Malan'tai's infinity circuit


I'm sorry Naga, I mismatched there. I stand corrected.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> A soul is described in the context of 40k as psychic or emotional energy. Wecan be pretty confident that tyranids do not experience emotions as humans would understand, the the lore concerning the Hive Mind makes it apparent that individual creatures have little if no bearing on the state of the Hive Mind itself, which is the repository of all tyranid consciousness after all.
> 
> It stands to reason that no individual tyranid has the sort of energy to give that a Chaos God wants. Only if you could attack the Hive Mind directly would you be on the right track.
> 
> ...


According to your logic though, Genestealers have souls. They feel, think, and can actively work independent of the Hive Mind. A few other Nids can do this as well I IIRC.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> According to your logic though, Genestealers have souls. They feel, think, and can actively work independent of the Hive Mind. A few other Nids can do this as well I IIRC.


Genestealers yes, however this is in no part influenced by the presence of alien dna within their own makeup. Also contributing is the fact that they are engineered to fear and flee from the tyranid fleets and are given autonomy. This is lost however once the tyranids, and thus the Hive Mind, reaches proximity. 

Other vanguard tyranids however, such as lictors and gaunt variants do not share these traits. They operate via instinct, not emotion. 

So it's possible that genestealers can be said to have souls, even if only temporarily. I would still call no on any other sort of tyranid though.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Genestealers yes, however this is in no part influenced by the presence of alien dna within their own makeup. Also contributing is the fact that they are engineered to fear and flee from the tyranid fleets and are given autonomy. This is lost however once the tyranids, and thus the Hive Mind, reaches proximity.
> 
> Other vanguard tyranids however, such as lictors and gaunt variants do not share these traits. They operate via instinct, not emotion.
> 
> So it's possible that genestealers can be said to have souls, even if only temporarily. I would still call no on any other sort of tyranid though.


Fair enough.


----------

