# All Chapters Getting Stormraven?



## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

The Decapitator over on Dakka thinks so.



> I have it on quite good authority that following the release of the Stormraven Gunship with the Blood Angels new models in a few weeks, the next issue of White Dwarf will contain rules/fluff which will enable all Space Marine chapters to use the unit.
> 
> Whether or not this is happening because of the rumoured Flyer ruleset expansion is anyones guess, but with BA definately and GK almost certainly getting the Stormraven, I am pretty confident that this will be confirmed in due course and there will be Stormravens all around!
> 
> The Milky Bars are on me!


It'd make total sense from a business perspective. More access - more sales.

Will be interesting to see if it pans out as stated in WD.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Seems most likely. Although the main question is whether this will extend to the other named chapters with the SW in particular since I am almost certain the SR must have been floating around during their creation yet it was omitted from their codex. Why?

In the end though this will pan out like the night spinner did where in a few months time most people will not play against one because it was not released as part of the official codex.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Seems like a logical extension - why limit it to one or two chapters?
Hopefully Chaos legions could get access to it, or maybe extend this logic to giving chaos marines drop pods?


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## Widowmaker666 (Jul 30, 2008)

slaaneshy said:


> Seems like a logical extension - why limit it to one or two chapters?
> Hopefully Chaos legions could get access to it, or maybe extend this logic to giving chaos marines drop pods?



Chaos can have drop pods when My codex marines get Daemon Princes :wink:


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## xenobiotic (Jun 7, 2008)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Although the main question is whether this will extend to the other named chapters with the SW in particular since I am almost certain the SR must have been floating around during their creation yet it was omitted from their codex. Why?


While on the subject with storyline and rules but regarding another vehicle. When the Caestus Assault Ram was released from FW they where available to every SM chapter excluding the Blood Angels (which surely would have as much use for such a vehicle as any other chapter) so I e-mailed FW and asked why which led to this answer:



Ead Brown Customer Service Manager Forge World said:


> With regard to the Caestus, we try not to directly compete with main range releases, and in light of the main Design Studio’s policy to eventually release a kit for each and every option in a Codex we chose to avoid any direct competition with any future Stormraven release, if indeed the main Studio intends such a kit in future.


So basically they didn't want to release a kit that competed with the BA range and kits. But now all of the sudden there might be Storm Ravens for every chapter leaving BAs with the Raven but not the sanction to use the IA vehicle. Thumbs up for that! -_-

Might have to toss them another e-mail if this turns out to be valid...


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## ChaosSpaceMarineGuy (Jan 29, 2010)

Widowmaker666 said:


> Chaos can have drop pods when My codex marines get Daemon Princes :wink:


It would make perfect sense for Chaos to have drop pods (rules wise and fluff wise). It would just be called Dreadclaw (actual model). That's the thing about vanilla SM and CSM, there should be the choas version of _almost_ every unit that is for SM.


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## OrdoMalleus (Apr 24, 2009)

ChaosSpaceMarineGuy said:


> It would make perfect sense for Chaos to have drop pods (rules wise and fluff wise). It would just be called Dreadclaw (actual model). That's the thing about vanilla SM and CSM, there should be the choas version of _almost_ every unit that is for SM.


Surely its the other way round.

CSM turned traitor and therfore got evil goodness like daemonweapons, oblits and marks of the gods.

SM Stayed good and were rewarded with the latest wargear- thunderhammers, landspeeders and stormraven.

Fluff wise, By turning traitor, CSM cut of the ties with the AdMech and therefore dont recieve the lastest goodies. I think both armies need units to keep them distinct playwise, rather than CSM having everything marines have "plus some"


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## Astorath333 (Sep 27, 2010)

on the sprue there are blood angel and grey knight iconography, so with the current 'Nilla marine codex i would have to say no, they won't get a stormraven


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## ChaosSpaceMarineGuy (Jan 29, 2010)

@ OrdoMalleus- I never said CSM should get everything SM have. I just saying they would have their own chaos version.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Astorath333 said:


> on the sprue there are blood angel and grey knight iconography, so with the current 'Nilla marine codex i would have to say no, they won't get a stormraven


why not?, allot of models are supplied with no icons at all and can still be used by those chapters not represented by them, or models are supplied with icons and are still allowed by chapters whos icons are not represented.

transfers and FW make a wide variety of chapters viable via Icons, and freehand painting icons now makes that list infinite.

and then of course there is the main reason why everyone can use the stormpigeon, because it earns GW lots of money from parents buying there child the flying brick turd


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## Capt.Al'rahhem (Jan 24, 2009)

As many have said it makes perfect sence from a marketing perspective and they've already established a trend for it with the inclusion of supposedly "unique" Land Raider varients in the updated codexs. It seems very plusable that they do it in a WD article, either around when they release the model or when they do the rumoured "everybody gets fliers" exspansion.

I look forward to it as I'm probably going to get a couple for my Angels of Absolution army. Even if they don't allow it for all SM codexs I'll still get them for friendly & Apoc. games.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

While it makes sense from a business point of view to give everyone the Stormraven, it doesn't really make sense from a fluff point of view.... given that its meant to be a rare, hard to manufacture unit, giving it to everyone invalidates currently written fluff... they'd have to rewite the blood angels codex entry for a start. 

I wouldn't like to see it being given to every chapter, as then it make it 'just another SM vehicle', rather then a unique transport... But, given everyone access to it would make GW more money... And we know what GW usually go for...


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## Hooobit (Dec 5, 2010)

Blood angels have gotten their own special toys in the past, so i wouldn't put it past GW to do it with the storm raven.

But hopefully being more profit driven would push them to let all of the Space marines have it.Chaos will just have to make do with warp powers and such.

Also, why do the CSM have the land raider but not the speeder?


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## nightfish (Feb 16, 2009)

OrdoMalleus said:


> Fluff wise, By turning traitor, CSM cut of the ties with the AdMech and therefore dont recieve the lastest goodies. I think both armies need units to keep them distinct playwise, rather than CSM having everything marines have "plus some"


Disagree. Drop pods for CSM have been around for ages and are you trying to tell me that tech orientated legions like the IW wouldnt invent new stuff?

OT, I think more flyer availability is great. Maybe we can get a few more of them for other armies. A re-release of the DE flyers would suit me perfectly.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Hooobit said:


> Also, why do the CSM have the land raider but not the speeder?


Because the Speeder was discovered Post Heresy

I play Blood Angels and I have to say I'm happy for everyone to have Stormravens and I look forward to using Thunderwolf Cav, Daemon Princes, Wave Serpents, Battlewagons. I mean just because they don't belong in Blood Angels armies is no reason not to,


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

GrizBe said:


> it doesn't really make sense from a fluff point of view.... given that its meant to be a rare, hard to manufacture unit, giving it to everyone invalidates currently written fluff


you assume GW gives a shit about its own fluff?, this being the company who gave every chapter a dreadnought ONLY the dark angels use and still haven't allowed the Dark angels to use it unless they use Imperial "you can't use that because I'm an asshole" armour


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## Capt.Al'rahhem (Jan 24, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> Because the Speeder was discovered Post Heresy,


That's not true, there are many pictures of Land Speeders, used by pretty much all legions (loyal & traitor), in The Horus Heresy: Collected Visions.


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## Hooobit (Dec 5, 2010)

Chaos have Land raiders, both the raider and the speeder were discovered by the same person so they should have both, the speeder should be in the codex.


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## OrdoMalleus (Apr 24, 2009)

nightfish said:


> Disagree. Drop pods for CSM have been around for ages and are you trying to tell me that tech orientated legions like the IW wouldnt invent new stuff?
> 
> OT, I think more flyer availability is great. Maybe we can get a few more of them for other armies. A re-release of the DE flyers would suit me perfectly.



Sorry, you misunderstand me. I was saying that its nice for each army to have their own specific thing, so I think that apart from friendlies and Apoc SR should stay BA only. likewise its nice for spacewolves to be the only SM army to have thunderwolf cav etc.
Otherwise everyone eschews what their army actully is good at/does and just goes for the most competitive build. losing out on any variation would suck as it would just seem like rematches all the time:boredom:

Anything pre-heresy (like Drop pods as you mentioned) should quite rightly be used both by SM and CSM, but i would like to thing that tech orientated legions such as the IW would come up far wackier and crazier than the SR...........

However, not to completely seem like im arguing, I too would love to see a flyer expansion.:victory: Tau barracudas and SM tempests in a dogfight? LOVE IT!


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

I can't help but be annoyed at this "I wanna have it" mentality. BA (and now GKs) have been waiting for an update for ages. Now, we'll have something others don't, but the main reaction (apart from the "it looks like shit" reaction) is "me too, me too!".

I don't mind not having access to Land Speeders or Whirlwinds in my GKs. I don't want "Grey Cavalry" and although we'll possibly have all-termi armies, I don't want bikes (and all-bikes armies).

I know it's logical for GW to allow the SR for all (even though a similar kit, the Valkyrie, is only for one army). I'm just being childish; I haven't had a codice in 8+ years, no 3++ Storm Shield, no Heavy 4 rending Assault cannons, so I don't want to share (too much).

Phil


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

boreas said:


> I can't help but be annoyed at this "I wanna have it" mentality. BA (and now GKs) have been waiting for an update for ages. Now, we'll have something others don't, but the main reaction (apart from the "it looks like shit" reaction) is "me too, me too!".
> 
> I don't mind not having access to Land Speeders or Whirlwinds in my GKs. I don't want "Grey Cavalry" and although we'll possibly have all-termi armies, I don't want bikes (and all-bikes armies).
> 
> ...


Yeah ... me either. Fuck them in the mouth. BA get fast moving Rhino and variants, SW get big doggies to ride. BUT THE ULTRAMARINES ARE THE GREATEST. (Or so thinks Mat Ward) They will give all of the good shit away to the other chapters taking away the personality of the different chapters and how they fight. If thats how they want to play it then I want some fucking HQ choices in the BA codex that gives me army-wide fleet and Mephy to have a fucking invuln save.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I think what's confusing is that they've given it to two codicies, rather than all or just one. If it was ONLY BA, then it would be fine. Another unique unit on top of Death Company, DC Dreads, Furioso Dreads, Libby Dreads, Fast vehicles, Sang Guard, Sang Priests, Reclusiarchs and Baals... but still BA only.

It's understandable that BA don't play well with others, so have kept the Baal to themselves. Therefore keeping the Raven to themselves makes sense too.

But to then give it to Grey Knights as well, but NOT anyone else? Just the Ordo Malleus? How does that make sense? Either the BA keep it to themselves, or they hand it over to Mars for mass production. Not "Hey let's share it with... who's our bestest drinking buddies... oh yeah, the Inquisition!! Hey guys, look what WE found! How'd you like to ride around in some of THIS shizzle, huh? But don't let anyone else have it, cos we like to make them jealous..."

I don't see it.

Available for all, or available for one. Or, like a lot of other stuff out there, _originally_ available for one, and then become available for all next edition. Banking on the latter, myself.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

I think the fluff is that it's GK only vehicle, but the BA got a few in exchange for helping out at one point or another...

Phil


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

Its possible that they may do Raven for the other chapters. Makes sense and I don't mind the idea... however you do have to draw the line somewhere to make it interesting instead of space wolves being a carbon copy of BA being a carbon Codex...

Rules can cover some of this... but its nice to think that some of the Imperial forces have slight variations within them even if its a single unit.

As has been stated... speeder STC was discovered post heresy, thats why CSM don't have them. How that impacts renegades though I am unsure.

The problem becomes though if a renegade or CSM faction has access to everything that a SM codex faction does.... but more... like oblits, demon princes etc... it unbalances things. SM have to have some hey this is my gear stuff, even if the fluff around it says it was found post heresy...or storm bolters on Rhino's or whatever. It will never work perfectly. 

I did see the Cestus assault ram could not be used by BA... and that seemed silly to me at the time. FW buyers are not in direct competition to GW mainstream players. IA for the main is for friendly games not competitive so I dont really understand the reasoning behind it. FW players are usually prepared to pay a premium as well for parts etc, and are not the stereotypical 16 year old player who goes Marines Marines Marines!

What I hope for is that they do a VARIANT stormraven that only codex chapters get, which is different or does a different role to that of the BA one, maybe a dedicated gunship without transport or something. Or they do some Valk modifications or something to make it SM appealing. (I can't see many SM palyers saying no if all of a sudden Valks became an option for them for FA)


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Sethis said:


> It's understandable that BA don't play well with others, so have kept the Baal to themselves. Therefore keeping the Raven to themselves makes sense too.
> 
> But to then give it to Grey Knights as well, but NOT anyone else? Just the Ordo Malleus? How does that make sense? Either the BA keep it to themselves, or they hand it over to Mars for mass production. Not "Hey let's share it with... who's our bestest drinking buddies... oh yeah, the Inquisition!! Hey guys, look what WE found! How'd you like to ride around in some of THIS shizzle, huh? But don't let anyone else have it, cos we like to make them jealous..."
> 
> I don't see it.


In the BA book, it says that the GK originally had the Storm Raven before the BA, and then the BA gained access to it, I believe as some variety of gift from the Knights.


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## AngelofDeath (Jul 1, 2010)

To me personally, it doesn't make much sense to give everything to people that we just get (we being BA players). As Boreas said, we haven't had an update in gawd knows how long! Last edition I was able to fully play was 3rd with BA. We finally get some cool stuff and now everybody is complaining even though they have their own benefits over us. 

One example in the nilla marine codex is the thunderfire cannon. Another is the scout speeder. They also have a large group of great independent characters and yet they are the ones getting jipped. BS! 

That's just my opinion.


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## Mr.Juggernaught (Nov 16, 2010)

Yeah I hate it how GW will shit out lots of stuff for the noobs that have rich parents and buy allot of crap for them which makes it unfair for the other races soo more people will become marines and then marines will basically become the only playable race getting the most frequently re-released codex yet witch hunters and Grey knits and necrons haven't gotten any thing since like 3rd edition and when they get something new the rich noobs start complaining about how they are so Mal nourished with new releases even though they get something new every 2 years. I personally think it would be funny to have the space marine codex not updated for like 8 years and see how they like it!

Stupid Gamezz workzhop and loving de moneyz


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## the cabbage (Dec 29, 2006)

I don't see a load of posters really saying that the Raven be available to nilla marines.

I see a few saying that is the plan and a few chaos players who want one.

And obviously the usual characters who realise anew every day that GW is a business._:shok:_

And the current and past fluff doesn't matter. A quick two pager in WD detailing a battle where the BA pulled the GK nuts out of the fire and hey presto a gift and re-engineering by BA Techmarines later ........ job done.

For me personally i'd keep it BA only. I don't play them I would just prefer the different marine armies to stay more unique than armour colour, and if that makes one a bit more powerfull hey ho..


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Capt.Al'rahhem said:


> That's not true, there are many pictures of Land Speeders, used by pretty much all legions (loyal & traitor), in The Horus Heresy: Collected Visions.


Not read Collected Visions, but Land Speeder STC was definitely discovered post heresy which is why Chaos don't have them. The Land Raider STC was rediscovered in the Great Crusade well before the Heresy. The same guy is supposed to have discovered both, but pre and post heresy.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

coke123 said:


> In the BA book, it says that the GK originally had the Storm Raven before the BA, and then the BA gained access to it, I believe as some variety of gift from the Knights.


Well then just swap what I said with Ordo Malleus instead of BA. It makes just as little sense then as well.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Now, I'm no fluffmaster, but aren't the GK an intrinsic part of the Ordo Malleus? I'm really not seeing what's so nonsensical about it.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

GK do have a Grand Master in the inner circle of the =I= and are on permantent attachment to the Ordo Mallus according to the fluff about them.


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## OrdoMalleus (Apr 24, 2009)

coke123 said:


> Now, I'm no fluffmaster, but aren't the GK an intrinsic part of the Ordo Malleus? I'm really not seeing what's so nonsensical about it.



GK are the chamber militant of the OrdoMalleus, meaning:
-they are attached to the inquisition but not actully part of it.
-(i.e they are the cavalry for the ordo Malleus when the Shit hits the fan)
-One of the grandmasters is tradionally a memeber of the inquisition as you would be unwise to alienate your best allies

In general it works;
-Inquisition find and uncover dameons
-Call in the GK to help kill the daemon

However, the inquistion pulls strings to make sure the GK have the best equipment possible and titans proximity to Mars means that they probably have a lot of gear that cant be made anywhere else in the galaxy....

which is probably how SR`s started off;


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## Rathios1337 (Jul 2, 2010)

my local blackshirt told me we are getting the rules in WD for chapter stormravens (he just got back from the meeting thingy)


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Frankly I hope that Space Wolves don't get the Storm Raven.
It just doesn't really suit them.

And why is it unfluffy for anyone but Grey Knights and Blood Angels to get the Storm Raven?
It doesn't say anything like that in the Blood Angels page on it, it just says "It's a relatively new addition to the Blood Angels armoury.".
It's new, and Blood Angels took it up as soon as they could, so why can't other chapters do the same?


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## ItsPug (Apr 5, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> Not read Collected Visions, but Land Speeder STC was definitely discovered post heresy which is why Chaos don't have them.


Land discovered the STC for anti-grav plates, the Landspeeder was built after he died but entered service towards the end of the Great Crusade. pg 117 IA2


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

ItsPug said:


> Land discovered the STC for anti-grav plates, the Landspeeder was built after he died but entered service towards the end of the Great Crusade. pg 117 IA2


Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreeet-CON....

And it's in IA so doesn't count, so neer.


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## sphere830 (Aug 4, 2009)

Astorath333 said:


> on the sprue there are blood angel and grey knight iconography, so with the current 'Nilla marine codex i would have to say no, they won't get a stormraven



Yeah, but think like a corporate capitalist...a 15 or 20 dollar/pound sprue with your army specific iconography will be a big seller. That aside, I'm excited about potentially getting a flying transport/heavy support/scout unit. Even more so than mechanics, the model looks great, and I can't wait to model one.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

According to my local GW manager, other SM chapters will be limited to just one Storm Raven.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

slaaneshy said:


> According to my local GW manager, other SM chapters will be limited to just one Storm Raven.


Kinda Daft when most people are only going to use one anyway unless its an Apoc battle....


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## Kobrakai (Jul 25, 2008)

GrizBe said:


> Kinda Daft when most people are only going to use one anyway unless its an Apoc battle....


For some of the quicker codex forces, a Stormraven would be a very useful unit to have in multiples. 

I know the army challenge force i'm going to build would find a trio of Ravens very very handy.


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## Death Shroud (Mar 1, 2008)

I think the idea of other chapters just being limited to one per army is a good compromise. GW get to sell more of the kits (which justifies creating the model in the first place), other players get to use it but Blood Angels and Grey Knights get to use more therefore get the option to create an army based around them.

Still not a fan of the model but I think I would still get one rather than going to the hassle of kitbashing it.


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## Dagmire (Oct 9, 2008)

Just spoke to a GW staffer who said we should expect a article in next months WD that will let other SM chapters use them.
He also mentioned new SM codexs coming and droped the names of White scars and raven guard quite alot.
BS?
No idea


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Dagmire said:


> Just spoke to a GW staffer who said we should expect a article in next months WD that will let other SM chapters use them.
> He also mentioned new SM codexs coming and droped the names of White scars and raven guard quite alot.
> BS?
> No idea


Let's hope they do mini-codices for the 'slightly variant' chapters.
When they release the next SM codex, of course.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

I can't see those two getting individual codexes... they don't have enough to make them unique to warrent them in my opinion.


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## Bindi Baji (Apr 23, 2009)

Dagmire said:


> He also mentioned new SM codexs coming and droped the names of White scars and raven guard quite alot.
> BS?


I have heard talk regarding one of these,
despite the fact it was denied in a fairly high profile comment not much over a year ago I think it's going to happen


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## ItsPug (Apr 5, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreeet-CON....
> 
> And it's in IA so doesn't count, so neer.


What about the White Dwarf compendium that first listed the rules for the landspeeder? It states they were used by the Imperial ARMY (and remember that they weren't guard until after the horus heresy) and lists the specific weapons of this varient (heavy plasma gun and heavy bolter) in the Imperial Guard army list later in the book.

so neer right back


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## bkiker (Jan 21, 2011)

Personally, I'm going to get one, and if I can swing it, I'll get more. I'm a Space Wolf player, and I toss the idea that it "just doesn't fit their character" or "if walking was good for Russ, then it's good for you." Follow that logic, and Space Wolves should not have Thunderhawks, Drop Pods, and Land Speeders, and since they do, they would use a Stormraven. 
As for the personal preference of other players, because that's really what this debate is about, if they say I can't use them. Then I'll change up my force. However, I'm sorry Blood Angel players, but I fail to see how not having the Stormraven will lessen the unique character of your army. You already have access to more Special Unique Units than I've seen any Space Marine army get. Those units I will admit are unique and very characteristic of your army. 
I don't think anyone has looked or discussed the tactical aspect of the Stormraven. We can argue all day if it looks good or not, or whether or not other marine chapters should get it. How does it perform on the battle field? From what I see, it's 12 armor all around for base 200 and counts as a Heavy Support. Roughly 50 points more you can get a Laid Raider, or for the same points you can get 4 Rhinos.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Erm don't Space Wolves have more unique unit types? 

Blood Angels have
Furioso Dreadnoughts
Sanguinary Guard
Reclusiarch
Sanguinary Priests
Baal Predators
Stormraven
Death Company
Death Company Dreadnought

Space Wolves have
Blood Claw
Fenrisian Wolf
Grey Hunter
Lone Wolf
Long Fang
Rune Priest
Skyclaw
Swiftclaw Biker
Thunderwolf Cav
Wolf Guard
Wolf Lord
Wolf Priest
Wolf Scout 

So it does lessen the unique nature of the Blood Angels. You can get one for your Space Wolves if you like but it smacks purely of wanting to make your already very powerful army even more powerful. By your reasoning all Space Marine chapters should have Long Fangs, I know i'd love them.


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## OrdoMalleus (Apr 24, 2009)

bkiker said:


> However, I'm sorry Blood Angel players, but I fail to see how not having the Stormraven will lessen the unique character of your army. You already have access to more Special Unique Units than I've seen any Space Marine army get.


However it would be kick in the knuts to the Grey knights who have less units than any other codex at the moment, even than necrons if you go pure GK. (PAGK, GKT, Dreadnought, Landraider)-4 Units!

Also considering I cant get anything Rhino based, or even landspeeders I would be quite pissed at having to share my one unique vehicle (other than with blood angels) with an army that has everything marines has, but generally better plus extra units!


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## Bindi Baji (Apr 23, 2009)

OrdoMalleus said:


> However it would be kick in the knuts to the Grey knights who have less units than any other codex at the moment


I fail to understand how it will be a kick in the nuts for GK players seeing as they don't even have the new codex yet and so have no idea how many units they will have


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## SonofVulkan (Apr 14, 2010)

My Son's of Vulkan Chapter won't be getting the Stormraven.

Not a fan of the model or the price tag.


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## bkiker (Jan 21, 2011)

@Aramoro
What I'm thinking as special or unique units are units that have no equal comparison to what regular marines get. 
Blood Claws, Skyclaws, and Swiftclaw - They're all basically the same unit, Blood Claws with (blank). They are crappy version of what regular marines get, and they rarely get that +2 charge bonus. 
Grey Hunters - they're just tactical marines with an extra close combat weapon.
Long Fangs - smaller dev squad. 
Rune Priest - just a librarian. It's the powers that make these guys special.
Wolf Guard - they're vets. They have, I think, the sane stat lines as regular marine vets.
Wolf Lord - just a chapter master.
Wolf Priest - just a chaplain.
Wolf Scouts - they're still just scouts, but they count as Elites. Dark Angels have the same scouts. 
That being said. 
Lone Wolf
Thunderwolves
Feniris wolves
These units have no equal comparison or "like unit" in the regular marine codex. I'm looking at the Stormraven without any of the special rules. The Blood Angels can keep those. I'm just looking at a unit that carries X models and flies. 
The Stormraven will probably not make my army any more powerful. Here's why. 
It's a big target. 
Any player worth anything will see it, and poor a lot of fire power into it. Once it gets shot down, and it will, the unit inside will be footslogging it, which in most games means that unit is effectively out of the game. 
I have spent at least 200 points on a unit that maybe, vague general estimation, taken one maybe two, strong maybe, and/or given my one really good assault.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

bkiker said:


> Blood Claws, Skyclaws, and Swiftclaw - Different rules and Weapon options.
> Grey Hunters - Different rules and Weapon options.
> Long Fangs - Much cheaper and can split fire.
> Rune Priest - Better Powers and Better Psychic Hood.
> ...


Those are all unique units, You cannot say that Long Fangs are the same as Devs when they're better than Devs in every way. It's like saying Long Fangs are the same as Dark Reapers, wrong.


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## OrdoMalleus (Apr 24, 2009)

Bindi Baji said:


> I fail to understand how it will be a kick in the nuts for GK players seeing as they don't even have the new codex yet and so have no idea how many units they will have


??

Because its a unit that they know they will be getting (from the Icons on the sprue alongside bloodangels) and theres naff all in the current codex.


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## bkiker (Jan 21, 2011)

@Aramoro
Please note that I actually did not say what you have me quoted as saying. 
By that reasoning every unit in the Blood Angel codex is a unique unit, and every unit in the Black Templars codex is a unique unit. 
My argument is not based on the special or added rules of the unit. I'm looking at what the unit does. The Long Fangs are just like a Devastator squad. Both are marines with heavy weapons, and both count as a heavy support choice. Both have the same tactics e.g. deploy in terrain and move very little. They have the same survivability. Their tactical value is the same. I take out a Devastator unit; my opponent is going to feel that. If my Long Fangs are taken out, I'm going to feel that. 
If you want to make the argument that I get to have Thunderwolves or Feniris Wolves, then use them. I just ask that you pay the same for them that I do, and model an appropriate model. As I would hope any Blood Angel would expect with the Stormraven. 
Brass tacks: Blood Angels and Grey Knights players are going to have to suck it up. It introduces a fun and new element into the game. An element a lot of players would at least like to try. Let's face it, players are going to be using this unit. If GW is smart, they'll make a standard set of rules for everyone to follow. The way I see it. The Stormraven is GW's attempt to bring a Thunderhawk to the everyday regular game and player. 
I've yet to hear anything on how it actually performs.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

bkiker said:


> @Aramoro
> Please note that I actually did not say what you have me quoted as saying.
> By that reasoning every unit in the Blood Angel codex is a unique unit, and every unit in the Black Templars codex is a unique unit.


They ARE unique units though, because they have different rules.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

bkiker;853723Brass tacks said:


> : Blood Angels and Grey Knights players are going to have to suck it up. It introduces a fun and new element into the game. An element a lot of players would at least like to try.


That's the attitude I deplore. What if, after introducing the thunderwolve cavalry in the SW they had allowed every army to have it through a WD under different forms? Would you have liked to "suck it up" after waiting years for a new dex? 

I know GKs will have new units in the upcoming dex. But it IS extremely disappointing that the only one that tangible right now is already pillaged by all other SMs telling me to "suck it up".

Phil


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## bkiker (Jan 21, 2011)

No I would not have a problem all marines having Thunderwolves. If they pay the points for them and use Thunderwolve rules, go ahead. It would be weird to see how they would be modeled and explained, but if you pay the points and use published rules, then I don't see the problem.
However, people are getting up in arms because 1 unit from the Blood Angel codex may become available to every marine, and it's not like GW is talking about giving everyone Death Company or Sanguinary Guard If everyone wants to be hard up with codex specific. How many use a Thunderfire cannon or Landspeeder Storm? It's ok for everyone to rip whatever they want from Ultramarines, but 1 unit from Blood Angels and suddenly everyone says it's not cool. 
But if the Stormraven means that much too you, then keep it. I just ask that I get to use the Caestus Sky Ram no questions asked, or how about a Librarian dreadnought. That fits the fluff for all dreadnoughts. 
If I really like the Stormraven, which I still do, I still have the options to use it even if GW doesn't allow all marines to have Stormravens
I can say I have some Blood Angel allies. 
I can say it's a Land Raider and treat as such. 
I can treat it as a Stormraven but use none of the special rules.
I can say my chapter is a successor chapter of some kind.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

bkiker said:


> Stuff


But as witerous says, they are not the same. Long Fangs are not of the same value as Dev's. Dev's cost more and are worse in every possible way to Long Fangs. Long Fangs are just a superior unit to Devs. And so on. 

With your opponents permisson you can do anything you want,go wild. But I don't feel StormRavens have any place in a Space Wolf Army, just as furioso Dreadnughts have no place in a Wolf Army and Thunderwolves have no place in a Blood Angels army.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> But as witerous says, they are not the same. Long Fangs are not of the same value as Dev's. Dev's cost more and are worse in every possible way to Long Fangs. Long Fangs are just a superior unit to Devs. And so on.


Well to be fair, Devastators have the advantage of ablative wounds.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

At the end of the day GW is going to want to shift as many SR's as possible to recoup their investment and make profit on it. The only way they can do this is open it up to other Chapters in some shape or form. What this will look like remains to be seen. Fair play if they decide to limit it to those mentioned already but I think the bean counters will get their way.

With regards to Long Fangs. It's swings and roundabouts. Look how much a SW player has to pay for Termies with TH/SS (must of hurt sales) and WL's also don't come cheap. TW's aren't even on the scene properly & I am starting to wonder if they will ever turn up in a kit form like BoK and Blood Claws are nothing really to shout about. Hence RP's, GH's & LF's tend to be the order of the day. This is why I think SW's players are so eager for TW's. Just to mix things up as they are playable but like SW's Termies, at a heavy cost.


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## bkiker (Jan 21, 2011)

Chimaera said:


> At the end of the day GW is going to want to shift as many SR's as possible to recoup their investment and make profit on it. The only way they can do this is open it up to other Chapters in some shape or form.


A point a think a lot of people are forgetting, and GW has every right to try and make money. 

As for the Thunderwolves. I think GW hasn't released TW's because they're too specialized. GW could only sell them as 1 thing: Thunderwolves. The Stormraven, however, and I'm talking about just the model, has nothing that screams out it belongs to Blood Angels. 

I think the problem with the discussion about unique units is that no body has defined terms or has taken a step back from the mind set that (blank) is the best Chapter ever. When I'm discussing unique units I talking about units that have no comparison in the Space Marine codex. Example: Long Fangs are comparable Devastor Squad where as Thunderwolves have nothing comparable in the Space Marine codex. Unique vehicles is think is dumb. I don't understand why all Space Marines do not pick from the same motor pool sometimes. The Stormraven is just that. It's a transport indicative to all Space Marine chapters. It's meant to get marines on the ground quick. 

As for the Blood Angel dreadnoughts, I wouldn't mind have access to them as well. I don't understand why everybody doesn't have a Librarian dreadnought or Furioso Dreadnought. You mean to tell me that the Blood Angels are the only guys that went, "Hey, you know what would make this dreadnought more awsome? Slapping another power fist on it!" Same with the Librarian dreadnought. The Blood Angels are the only ones that figured, "Hey we shouldn't let our Librarians die seeing as they're part of our HQ section and are generally pretty cool warriors."


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## IanC (Sep 3, 2010)

Do the Blood Angels get Ironclad? They are pretty close to Furioso in some ways.

I mentioned the Librarian Dreadnought thing today "The Blood Angels are apparently the only chapter smart enough to put Librarians in Dreadnoughts for some reason" :laugh:


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

IanC said:


> Do the Blood Angels get Ironclad? They are pretty close to Furioso in some ways.
> 
> I mentioned the Librarian Dreadnought thing today "The Blood Angels are apparently the only chapter smart enough to put Librarians in Dreadnoughts for some reason" :laugh:


They're very similar in some ways, but vastly different in others.
Furiosos have WS6, compared to 4.
Ironclads have the Seismic Hammer, which is glorious; they also have Move Through Cover.
That's at their default, when you take options into account they are completely different.


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

Stella Cadente said:


> flying brick turd


hahahahaha

Rev


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## SeraphTC (Jan 26, 2011)

*No Rules in WD*

WD turned up today - The rules for the StormRaven have been printed as per the codex.

There is no mention anywhere that the StormRaven may be used by any chapter other than the BA or GK (yes, they do mention the GK briefly).

I guess the rules may be added at a later date, but for now it's not officially available.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

SeraphTC said:


> WD turned up today - The rules for the StormRaven have been printed as per the codex (although the BloodStrike missile rules are ommitted).
> 
> There is no mention anywhere that the StormRaven may be used by any chapter other than the BA or GK (yes, they do mention the GK briefly).
> 
> I guess the rules may be added at a later date, but for now it's not officially available.


So what, they had a page of the White Dwarf where they printed the Storm Raven rules?
That... That seems completely pointless, it's in the codex, why put it in WD?


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I though tit was going to be available for other armies using the Flyers supplement.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Winterous said:


> So what, they had a page of the White Dwarf where they printed the Storm Raven rules?
> That... That seems completely pointless, it's in the codex, why put it in WD?


to make those that have no brought the twilight codex buy it so they can use twilight angels with the stormraven.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Thinking all SM can get it in the Flyer's supplement might be true. If so, I wonder if normal games will allow it usage.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> to make those that have no brought the twilight codex buy it so they can use twilight angels with the stormraven.


Indeed, this is something White Dwarf used to do a lot, print the rules up for things which were already in Codex's especially when they just brought out a model for it, to show what it could do to everyone.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

of course you could just ask your opponent.
"can I use this space marine vehicle built by space marines whos fluff does not mention is only use by blood angels and grey knights and could be used by all space marines"
your opponent will either say yes because they are a decent person who plays within the spirit of the game, or no because there uptight competetive jerks who don't understand what spirit even means, simples.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> of course you could just ask your opponent.
> "can I use this space marine vehicle built by space marines whos fluff does not mention is only use by blood angels and grey knights and could be used by all space marines"
> your opponent will either say yes because they are a decent person, or no because there uptight competetive jerks, simples.


You missed the bit 'Unless they're a Space Wolf player with a Stormraven, then you say no because their geek tears taste the sweetest'


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

I'd answer yes to such a request... I'd also plop down some whirlwinds to assist my drop-podded Grey knights...

Phil


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## SeraphTC (Jan 26, 2011)

Yeah I thought it was odd that they posted the rules page in the WD...It's almost like they thought about making it available for all (as per the many reports that people have posted of staff members saying this was the case - I was told the same thing), but then maybe changed their minds?

EDIT: As Aramorro posted, they did used to do this, but they got out of that habit a long time ago.

If there *is* a flyers supplement then yes, that is where I would expect it to be made available for all - otherwise most marine chapters would be unable to take part in the key aspect of those games (unless Landspeeders are included...but I don't think they'd leave it at that).

I would not expect those rules to be officially transferable to regular 40K games - just like the planetstrike rules and Apocalypse rules are not.

But then again, the whole point of 40K is to have fun, so just do whatever you and your opponent feel is in the spirit of the game you decide to play.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Widowmaker666 said:


> Chaos can have drop pods when My codex marines get Daemon Princes :wink:


Chaos should have drop pods because in codex:CSM the Steel Brethren are mentioned as making extensive use of them.

As to the idea that CSM should get the Stormraven, why? It's ugly as sin.


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## SeraphTC (Jan 26, 2011)

Should CSM have drop pods? Yes. No question as far as the fluff is concerned. They aren't in the Codex though - so unless it's a special scenario my opponent isn't taking them unless they get my permission, and that's only going to happen if they ask before I write my army list.

Should the CSM get the Stormraven? I don't think so no. Why should they? It's a newly discovered STC that is currently exclusive to the Grey Knights and Blood Angels.

Should other marine chapters get the Stormraven? Well that's half the point of this thread isn't it? 

IMHO, yes. I think they should. I don't see why anything that effective, that is easy enough to be manufactured and used in large numbers by the GK, BA and successors would be held back from the other chapters.

I don't play BA or currently GK (I have a small detachment for my Guard in certain games). I have 2x other marine chapters. Until there are rules to say that I can, then I won't be taking a Stormraven. It's just easier that way. It's not like I don't have other options.

I might consider buying two to build a custom Assault Ram though 

EDIT: No I won't. That's a shit idea.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

If I recall correctly, the drop pod model did not exist prior to the latest CSM codex, which I imagine is the only reason it is not used in the army. Next codex release, I will bet my mortgage it will be there, assuming I am still alive when it actually happens.


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## exsulis (Jul 17, 2008)

CSM doesn't use Drop pods, they have the more advanced DreadClaw Assault Pod. During the HH loyalist jettisoned the DreadClaws because the things kept killing(accidentally opening while in space) them, and not the traitorous CSM.

I would like CSM to get it officially in the next codex though, and they Hellblade too


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## Rathios1337 (Jul 2, 2010)

Hay if my black templars have to share MY land raider variant, You have to share YOUR land raider variant Blood angels


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## IanC (Sep 3, 2010)

Whats odd, is that theres a rather big white space under the rules for the StormRaven in the latest White Dwarf, like someone forgot to put some text there... No where on the page does it say "Blood Angel only", which just adds to my feeling that someone forgot...


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## Judas Masias (Jun 5, 2008)

*February's White Dwarf : The Blood Angels Issue...again!*

Here is something i found on http://theveilsedge.blogspot.com/2011/01/februarys-white-dwarf-blood-angels.html

View attachment 10680


With the hulking form of Brother Sergeant Rafen dominating the cover of this months White Dwarf, you can be in no doubt that the Son's of Sanguinus have once again seized control of GW printing press. The artwork by the excellent Clint Langley, is from James Swallows Blood Angels Omnibus, the only bit of the book worth having IMHO, but thats another story.

I was half expecting the cover to feature a Stormraven or a Dreadnought due to the hype and expectation surrounding their February release; but fear not, there is plenty of both inside. The pages are awash with the sort of quality photos of stunningly panited studio models that White Dwarf has a reputation for; the stuff that keeps me subscribed despite the magazines subversion into (at times) little more than a house catalogue, but that's the pre 100's reader in me mourning things long past.

So what's inside? Here's a skim read guide...

In the new release section there are 7 pages of pictures, including some great close ups of the new models; then there is a good design notes feature where Mat Ward is interviewed about his thoughts and ideas behind the Blood Angels ethos and how the Stormraven and Furioso variants fit within it. Guess what? I don't think he mentions the Ultramarines once, by Throne Mr Ward, you are learning. Also the mini designers Dale Stringer and the legendary Jes Goodwin share their creative views about the process of developing the two new kits; I found Jes's comparison of the Stormraven's shape with an outstretched fist, very interesting.

The Stormraven's rules and points cost are included as had been widely speculated along with some short pieces of fluff about it's use, but not a hint that other Marine Chapters other than the Grey Knights will be getting them, sorry guys and gals. The article suggests that Aprils issue of White Dwarf will contain news on the Grey Knights and their kit. 

View attachment 10681
\

There is a sample 2000 point Blood Angel strike force including two Ravens and a couple of Dreads and also a Battle Mission entitled 'The Blood of Martyrs' specific to BA's and their successors where you have to withdraw your Marines from the centre of the battlefield using Marty Squads to fight a rearguard action.

The Red Thirst continues with a Liber Apocalyptica article featuring a page of fluff about a BA campaign against the forces of Chaos on a world named Orana and then Apocalypse data sheets for the Death Company, Dante and the Sanguinary Guard, a Stormraven Strikeforce and an Armoured Strikeforce with Landraider and Baal Predators. 

The Black Rage is unleashed with an 18 page Battle Report, Blood Angles v's Dark Eldar 1750 points.

To finish off this crimson tide, two of the studio team Nick Bayton and Duncan Rhodes present an 8 page painting workshop using the new BA Battle Force, to showcase their different styles and techniques for painting Blood Angels, including masking and weathering.

Phew...so if you're not a BA fan, come on what's wrong with you? This months issue is going to be a slightly light read, there are still some 40k related articles which may grab your interest. An interview with Black Library Author Gav Thorpe about portraying Astartes in books, Jervis Johnson talks campaigns and the Third War for Armageddon is back with GW's studio team launching a Planetary Empires campaign set around one of 40k's most iconic conflicts; they're promising lots of background related articles online for this one. 

See all that talk of Yarrick last post was very timely.

To sum up, for me at least being a Blood Drinker player, this is a bumper issue with a wealth of stuff that should give me ample reading material for when I'm sat in the Recloosiam...Oh I'm wasted in my day job.


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## SeraphTC (Jan 26, 2011)

I've just reread the Stormraven rules page - *properly* this time.

I can see where the confusion has arisen from some staffers telling people that it will be available for all chapters - but I think that might have been them reading too much into a basic ommission.

Nowhere in the rules printed in WD does it say that the Stormraven is a BA/GK only vehicle.

I believe that this might have led some people to believe that therefore it was available for a wider range of chapters...however, this is quite simply because it's been lifted straight from the codex.

I honestly believe at this point that the info some staffers have been giving out was either rubbish to generate sales or that they misunderstood what they had seen relating to the article.

Ah well.

I'm sure they'll clarify sooner or later. Probably later, after they use it as a selling point for GK's in April and May


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## exsulis (Jul 17, 2008)

it makes sense that the staffers would say it too. As they get to sell pre-orders of the SR to non-BA players if it is true.


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## Death Shroud (Mar 1, 2008)

To be fair to White Dwarf the page the StormRaven is on has "Warhammer 40,000 Blood Angels" emblazoned across the top right hand corner.

I'm sure the StormRaven will make it into other chapters, GW would be crazy to limit an expensive kit to just one chapter. 
Question is will they -

A: Make it available for other chapters via a White Dwarf article in a few months when the Blood Angels players have had their chance to bask in the envy of their other marine playing peers.

B: Add it to Space Marine books as they go allowing them to charge different points, change weapon load out options, limit numbers in army per book.

If GW go with option B, fluff-wise it would be logical (and would certainly throw DA players a bone) to say that the likes of the Dark Angels Ravenwing would snap these up and be able to take one per Heavy Support option. While the more traditional Ultras and other codex chapters may have only one per army (maybe taking White Scars or Raven Guard characters allowing for more). The "ain't getting me on no damn fool plane" Space Wolves might not use them at all.:biggrin:


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## SeraphTC (Jan 26, 2011)

Whilst I like the amusing sentiment, I don't see why Wolves wouldn't use one. They fight with their feet on the ground, and they don't like teleportation, but they have to *get* to the ground to fight on it, and they happily use Thunderhawks and drop pods. They also use landspeeders (which are crewed by 'sensible' Grey Hunters).

If this allowed them to get from A to B and made sense, they would most certainly use it.


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## Bindi Baji (Apr 23, 2009)

Death Shroud said:


> I'm sure the StormRaven will make it into other chapters


it was always intended to be given to other chapters by the time the next UM/SM codex comes around, 
it is of course possible it will happen before with the flyers, 
but as I stated before (on a few ocassions) it was never intended to happen straight away and this WD thing was purely wishfull thinking


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

I got my WD today and took a look at the page. The thing that confuses me the most is why they even bothered putting the rules in the WD. It would be the same as putting the rules for the Dark Eldar Ravager or Necron Monolith. It doesn't say anywhere that I can tell that even GKs can use it. It comes with GK/Inquisition heraldry but that's about it, I haven't heard anything about rules coming with it in the box for GKs.

So why put the rules in the WD? Will we see with the July fliers release that "please refer to February issue of WD for rules on the Stormraven"? That would be kinda retarded but totally in line with what GW is capable of. Nothing retarded they do surprises me any more...

I didn't bother reading any of the stuff (never do because I dont care about 98% of the shit in WD (THEN WHY ARE YOU A SUBSCRIBER I hear you whine, because I paid 7€ for a 2 year subscription when GWs website was bugged yearly last year)) so if it is mentioned anywhere why the put in the rules I missed it.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Just when you thought White Dwarf couldn't get any lamer...it just did!


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## andrewm9 (Aug 21, 2008)

MadCowCrazy said:


> I got my WD today and took a look at the page. The thing that confuses me the most is why they even bothered putting the rules in the WD. It would be the same as putting the rules for the Dark Eldar Ravager or Necron Monolith. It doesn't say anywhere that I can tell that even GKs can use it. It comes with GK/Inquisition heraldry but that's about it, I haven't heard anything about rules coming with it in the box for GKs.
> 
> So why put the rules in the WD? Will we see with the July fliers release that "please refer to February issue of WD for rules on the Stormraven"? That would be kinda retarded but totally in line with what GW is capable of. Nothing retarded they do surprises me any more...
> 
> I didn't bother reading any of the stuff (never do because I dont care about 98% of the shit in WD (THEN WHY ARE YOU A SUBSCRIBER I hear you whine, because I paid 7€ for a 2 year subscription when GWs website was bugged yearly last year)) so if it is mentioned anywhere why the put in the rules I missed it.


You realize its not the first time that they have reprinted rules right? Remember when the Legion of the Damned miniatures came out? The complete rules were printed in WD then too. They didn't suddenly become available to all marine codices. They are still comfortably Space Marines only. While it probably suits the "money grubbing company" to eventually make it available to all this article doesn't do it.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

andrewm9 said:


> You realize its not the first time that they have reprinted rules right? Remember when the Legion of the Damned miniatures came out? The complete rules were printed in WD then too. They didn't suddenly become available to all marine codices. They are still comfortably Space Marines only. While it probably suits the "money grubbing company" to eventually make it available to all this article doesn't do it.


Actually I did not realize this, I have only been a WD subsrciber since last Jan and I haven't bothered with many of the older WDs except for the ones that came out for the launch of the Sisters of Battle and the Witch Hunters codex.

About the battle report, I was actually expecting the Blood Angels to win it then realized GW could probably get more model sales for both armies if they Drew the game.
Does a new codex released army ever lose their first WD battle report?
Seeing how Sisters of Battle have been treated over the last few years I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Sisters lost horribly in their new codex release battle report :crazy:


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## SeraphTC (Jan 26, 2011)

UPDATE!!

I now have confirmation from my local GW Manager regarding *exactly* why the rules are in WD - he was at the meeting recently where this was discussed.

The rules are in the WD specifically so any Space Marine army can use it as a fast attack choice. There are no limitations. This is purely because they feel it's a great kit and they don't want to limit it (or maybe limit sales!?) to Blood Angels players. The only official restriction is that you CANNOT take it in a GW tournement unless it's in your Codex. No surprise there. 'Why else would we print the rules in WD?' was one of the responses I got - they don't just put rules out there anymore. If you want them, you buy the codex.

This is obviously a retcon salesy move, but I fully expect to see it in every Marine codex from here on out. I also wouldn't be surprised if we get a more direct ruling on this printed in WD at some point in the future - although those are just my personal feelings.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

GW did it because they love to feast on the angry tears of geeks. I wonder how many Space Marine, Space Wolf players now own a Storm Raven they cannot use because of the 'rumour'.


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## SeraphTC (Jan 26, 2011)

Aramoro said:


> GW did it because they love to feast on the angry tears of geeks. I wonder how many Space Marine, Space Wolf players now own a Storm Raven they cannot use because of the 'rumour'.


It basically amounts to them saying that it's an unofficial WD update, which means that you can take it if your opponent agrees.

Unless anyone thought they were going to be able to use it in an official GW tournement I fail to see why they own a model they can't use.

As long as my opponent says to me upfront, before we write army lists 'I might take a Storm Raven, do you mind?' Then I don't have a problem with anyone using it.

Also, let's not forget that in an Apocalypse game you can take whatever you like.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

If you opponent agrees then you can do whatever you like, always have. The rumour was it was going to be like the Nightspinner and legal for all games. 

And i'm sorry 'I heard it from my local GW manager' constitutes nothing more than a rumour, you might as well have been told it by a gypsy reading your tea leaves.


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## SeraphTC (Jan 26, 2011)

Aramoro said:


> If you opponent agrees then you can do whatever you like, always have. The rumour was it was going to be like the Nightspinner and legal for all games.
> 
> And i'm sorry 'I heard it from my local GW manager' constitutes nothing more than a rumour, you might as well have been told it by a gypsy reading your tea leaves.



Yes - I have edited my post, as I misread yours.

I don't agree that it's not more than rumour I'm afraid. There are plenty of managers out there that will make stuff up and speak out of their rear ends - mine is NOT one of those, I'm thankful to say. He runs a Training Store, and he attends a lot of these meetings. We see a lot of management on site during the week. If he isn't sure about something or if he doesn't know then he will be completely honest about it. His information is good.

I appreciate that you can't take my word (or his) for that, as you probably don't know me (or him) personally. I accept that completely.

I would urge anyone who has any doubts about the implications of the printing in WD to contact a GW manager that they trust to be honest and who was at the meeting in question and discuss it.

Obviously that will be harder for folks outside the UK, but if enough of us hear the same story from different GW sources then I think we can take it as the truth.

Ultimately though, it makes no difference. As you said, you can do whatever you like as long as your opponent agrees, and the information I was provided by the manager simply reinforces that.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

SeraphTC said:


> Ultimately though, it makes no difference. As you said, you can do whatever you like as long as your opponent agrees, and the information I was provided by the manager simply reinforces that.


Just so we're clear here, nothing you said actually suggested to me that they WERE usable by anyone.
The article doesn't have any mention of that, at all; and you didn't provide any reasons why they are.

Are you saying that they're going to make it allowed in an upcoming WD?


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## SeraphTC (Jan 26, 2011)

Winterous said:


> Just so we're clear here, nothing you said actually suggested to me that they WERE usable by anyone.
> The article doesn't have any mention of that, at all; and you didn't provide any reasons why they are.
> 
> Are you saying that they're going to make it allowed in an upcoming WD?


"I now have confirmation from my local GW Manager regarding *exactly* why the rules are in WD - he was at the meeting recently where this was discussed.

The rules are in the WD specifically so any Space Marine army can use it as a fast attack choice. There are no limitations. This is purely because they feel it's a great kit and they don't want to limit it (or maybe limit sales!?) to Blood Angels players. The only official restriction is that you CANNOT take it in a GW tournement unless it's in your Codex."

According to my GW manager, the intent behind them printing the rules have is to allow other marine lists to take a TonkaHawk as a fast attack choice under the provisio that your opponent agrees. So no GW Tourneys, and no sneaking it in without your opponents permission. This isn't his opinion, but what they were told in a recent managment meeting.

I personally feel that yes, because people will argue the toss and can't agree that you can do whatever you like with your opponents permission, that they will print a more official wording in a future WD. I feel it will read something like this:

'Any marine chapter may take a TonkaHawk as a fast attack choice as long as they gain their opponents permission before the game. It may not be used in GW Tournements.'

Which will be to satisfy people who want to argue about it. 

In reality, whether or not they ever print this, it changes nothing - as long as your opponent agrees you can do whatever you like.

If they don't make the rules available and you want to take one, not only do you need your opponents permission but you also need a copy of the codex. I can imagine a lot of people downloading said codex.

This way they can just sell a WD with the kit, and everyone is happy.

Well ok, not everybody. I'm sure there will be plenty of people who will want to argue the toss, but really, does it matter? Outside of a competitive environment (where they have ruled it out) and with nothing at stake, who cares?

Sorry - I'm old skool. As long as the game is fun and fair for both players I really don't care what they take.


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## SeraphTC (Jan 26, 2011)

/offtopic to explain myself

When I play a game of 40k, I build my list based on my knowledge of what I have vs what my opponent has in their codex (not their collection as it might change, their codex).

Therefore, if a player wants to take something outside of their codex that fits the theme of their army and how they play (in their opinion, not mine - it's not my army), then as long as they ask if it would be ok if they maybe included it before I put my list together, 99% of the time I just won't care. I don't even expect them to say 'I'm going to take this' - just 'I have this, I might like to include it, is that ok?'.

/ontopic


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## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

So pretty much what is going on is they are putting the rules out in white dwarf so people who aren't blood angel players or grey knights players can use it without having to buy a full codex for one unit. Sounds like a good idea to me. This is no different than any other apoc rules they put out for units or vehicles.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Such a thing would never pass at our gaming club, IA units arn't even allowed, not even the updated points costs for the Sisters of Battle rhinos.
Heck this is just like me asking to take a Carnifex in my Dark Eldar army. Since it's nothing official I doubt allot of people will allow you to use the model outside of "friendly" games.


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## andrewm9 (Aug 21, 2008)

MadCowCrazy said:


> Actually I did not realize this, I have only been a WD subsrciber since last Jan and I haven't bothered with many of the older WDs except for the ones that came out for the launch of the Sisters of Battle and the Witch Hunters codex.
> 
> About the battle report, I was actually expecting the Blood Angels to win it then realized GW could probably get more model sales for both armies if they Drew the game.
> Does a new codex released army ever lose their first WD battle report?
> Seeing how Sisters of Battle have been treated over the last few years I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Sisters lost horribly in their new codex release battle report :crazy:


No worries as it wasn't a stab at you. I don't subscribe to the piece of junk myself, but I do look every month to see if its worthy of my cash. Interesting thought about the Sisters of Battle. I think they did lose to the Space Wolves in their first battle report. Though from what I remember whoever played the Sisters wasn't playing terribly well (or rolling well at all). Despite that Sisters did do a hurting on the Pups. Of course my memory may be faulty about all of it the report.


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## Bindi Baji (Apr 23, 2009)

SeraphTC said:


> "I now have confirmation from my local GW Manager regarding *exactly* why the rules are in WD - he was at the meeting recently where this was discussed.


and yet when I popped into GW leicester square a few hours ago to top up on necron abyss the store manager said that it was clear from top down that stormravens are currently GK and BA only, 
I suspect your store manager was just trying to sell more or just saying that you can still buy them anyway


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## OrdoMalleus (Apr 24, 2009)

SeraphTC said:


> UPDATE!!
> 
> I now have confirmation from my local GW Manager regarding *exactly* why the rules are in WD - he was at the meeting recently where this was discussed.
> 
> The rules are in the WD specifically so any Space Marine army can use it as a fast attack choice.


Im confused as to why its a Fast Attack choice for a SM army when for the blood angels its a Heavy support? ( however dont know what FOC it is for GKs yet)


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

Cause the Baal Preds are already in the FA slot. If they put it in the FA slots then you could take 3 Vindicators and 3 SR and that would be some serious cheese I think. Vindi's blast shit and then SR with Hurricane Bolters, Ass. Cannons and HB to mop up the stragglers ... all bad for horde armies.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

MadCowCrazy said:


> Such a thing would never pass at our gaming club, IA units arn't even allowed, not even the updated points costs for the Sisters of Battle rhinos.
> Heck this is just like me asking to take a Carnifex in my Dark Eldar army. Since it's nothing official I doubt allot of people will allow you to use the model outside of "friendly" games.


yeah I wouldn't be cool with it. Though I would play against someone's IA armor. That would be cool.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I looked in WD today at WH Smiths and nowhere on that double page spread did I find the words "The Storm Raven may be taken as a Fast Attack/Heavy Support choice for an army using Codex: Space Marines, Codex: Space Wolves, Codex: Black Templars et al"

Which confuses the hell out of me why they bothered to put the rules in WD in the first place, unless it's to make people who have somehow not noticed the BA codex suddenly think "I want one of those! Quick, start a BA army!"...


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I spoke to my local store manager and he said that since IF you have the rules for the Stormraven then you can use it in any marine force because the article doesn't tell you can't use it. I would have guessed that it remains in the Heavy Support section. As an aside I saw the Stormraven and it looks pretty damn good. When I asked why the pictures made it look so crap he stated a new photographer had recently been hired which made sense in my eyes.

So in short if you happen to be in the West Midlands area in the UK then pop in to GW Solihull with your February WD and feel free to use a Stormraven in games there. I might get one now just to see how it would look like in tiger stripes.


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## Bindi Baji (Apr 23, 2009)

The bottom line is if you want one then get one, 
they will quite possibly be allowed in some places and not in others but they will be available to most marines in a couple of years time.

I have mine already and I have spent a few hours this morning figuring out how I intend to convert it


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Use assault cannons and heavy bolters and try to claim it is 2 razorbacks flying together?


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## Akhara'Keth (Nov 20, 2010)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Use assault cannons and heavy bolters and try to claim it is 2 razorbacks flying together?


Well, that's a good idea!


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> IF you have the rules for the Stormraven then you can use it in any marine force because the article doesn't tell you can't use it.


Great, so I'll turn up with my AV 14/14/14 Fast Skimmer that's Immune to Melta with Twin Linked Pulsars for 10pts and play with that, because it doesn't say anywhere that I can't.

That might hold up in casual games (hell, I'd let my opponent use a Storm Raven regardless because it's fun to burn out of the sky), but no way in hell is any kind of official event is going to let it happen.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Sethis said:


> Great, so I'll turn up with my AV 14/14/14 Fast Skimmer that's Immune to Melta with Twin Linked Pulsars for 10pts and play with that, because it doesn't say anywhere that I can't.












Press Picture for Blog about this conversion :crazy:


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Sethis said:


> Great, so I'll turn up with my AV 14/14/14 Fast Skimmer that's Immune to Melta with Twin Linked Pulsars for 10pts and play with that, because it doesn't say anywhere that I can't.
> 
> That might hold up in casual games (hell, I'd let my opponent use a Storm Raven regardless because it's fun to burn out of the sky), but no way in hell is any kind of official event is going to let it happen.


The only difference between the stormraven and your vehicle is that rules exist for the stormraven and that there is somewhere which is happy to let non blood angel players to use. I myself am not fussed facing one because there is also no plausible explanation on how the Blood angels managed to get their hands on Stormravens whereas every other chapter has failed. I don't think the inquisition would be too happy to the GK if they gave preferential treatment to a chapter they already view suspiciously as damned.


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## Bindi Baji (Apr 23, 2009)

Sethis said:


> Great, so I'll turn up with my AV 14/14/14 Fast Skimmer that's Immune to Melta with Twin Linked Pulsars for 10pts and play with that, because it doesn't say anywhere that I can't.


it doesn't say anywhere I can't use my stormraven with my Bretonnian army either, 
I suspect I won't get away with this, but the idea of knights on horseback riding out of a stormraven sounds fun


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

what was that go out the window just now?
oh its ok its just another box'o common sense.

is there any logical/fluff reason why any other chapter CANNOT use the ugly stormpigeon?...no there is not correct well done.
from a sportsmanship point of view is there a reason why you should tell any other marine player to pack up his stormraven and fuck off?...again no well done class.

there is a very fine and often crossed line between friendly gamer and asshole, while true that organisers (NOT YOU) can refuse other players to use this thing in tournies/official events, there is little to no reason to refuse it outside of these, as long as it stays *within the boundries of reason* set by the rules and fluff nothing has a good reason to be refused.

note boundries of reason, something like the example given (AV 14/14/14 Fast Skimmer that's Immune to Melta with Twin Linked Pulsars for 10pts) is outside the boundries of reason and is on the asshole part of the line mentioned earlier.


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## Judas Masias (Jun 5, 2008)

DAAAMMMMEEE! I agree with what she said.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

If everyone gets the stormraven......Then why can't we all use sword Brethren or thunderfire cannons. Hell if you let me have a Landraider Achilles ill GIVE YOU a stormraven!

Other wise...

Suck it up kids your codex doesn't have it are's does, we arn't bitching about no ironclads or Venerable s or thunderfire cannons or heavy support landraiders.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Witch King of Angmar said:


> If everyone gets the stormraven......Then why can't we all use sword Brethren or thunderfire cannons. Hell if you let me have a Landraider Achilles ill GIVE YOU a stormraven!
> 
> Other wise...
> 
> Suck it up kids your codex doesn't have it are's does, we arn't bitching about no ironclads or Venerable s or thunderfire cannons or heavy support landraiders.


I would certainly hope not, BA players are already bitchy enough
1: you have better dreads than ironclads
2: you have libby, death company and WS6 dreads.....what the fuck you need venerables for?
3: your land raiders are transport options.....TRANSPORT OPTIONS THAT DEEP STRIKE, you people are never happy.
4: you want a thunderfail cannon?????????
5: you play pre-heresy blood angels...so you can't have stormpigeons

if you want an achilles thats fine, there really is no good reason why you can't, or an assault ram, just like there is no good reason why any other chapter can't have a stormpigeon, its all part in part of using common sense.....yes I know nobody in 40k has it except for a very very VERY select tiny few of us, but the rest of you could try just once.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> 5: you play pre-heresy blood angels...so you can't have stormpigeons


Game, set, match.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> its all part in part of using common sense....


Just had to laugh when I read this, it's GW we are talking about here!!
Then again GW wants money more than balanced codicies so it wouldn't surprise me in the least if other SM chapters get the SR. Then again they might keep them BA and GK only to force people into starting those armies.
Most likely though once the initial rush has subsided a few months of the GK release or when this fliers release is scheduled we might see all SM chapters getting it.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

MadCowCrazy said:


> Just had to laugh when I read this, it's GW we are talking about here!!


I'm talking about common sense from gamers, not GW, although common sense from gamers I would say is allot harder to find than from GW, seriously the quantity of muppets makes GW look like Stephen hawking, especially since they are the ones who who encourage players to do things like this, they even say in there rulebooks that the rules are not important.

but unfortunatly todays muppe...err players..no wait I was right the first time, muppets are too busy trying to RAW there way through games that they miss parts in the rulebook that allow fun.

and they wonder why people despise them.


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## Bindi Baji (Apr 23, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> although common sense from gamers I would say is allot harder to find than from GW


whilst I was in GW t'other day I heard this little gem

"Yeah but if my space wolf marine stands on his tip toes and leans to the left he can see your archon and so he can fire"

"stop talking shit"


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## bkiker (Jan 21, 2011)

Stella Cadente said:


> I would certainly hope not, BA players are already bitchy enough
> 1: you have better dreads than ironclads
> 2: you have libby, death company and WS6 dreads.....what the fuck you need venerables for?
> 3: your land raiders are transport options.....TRANSPORT OPTIONS THAT DEEP STRIKE, you people are never happy.
> ...


Couldn't have said it better. I still think people can't tell the difference between a unique unit and a special piece of equipment. Sword Brethren are a unique unit to Black Templars. That's how the Black Templars train their troops. The Thunderfire cannon is special piece of equipment. There's no good reason/fluff why other Space Marine armies can't use it. The Stormraven is a special piece of equipment. If the Special Rules for it do not make it strictly Blood Angels. 
Skies of Blood simple means that models inside the Stormraven can jump out. If they have jet packs they can use the Decent of Angels rule.


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## the cabbage (Dec 29, 2006)

So.. are we saying now that not to be happy with your opponent playing pick and mix with marine codices makes you an arse. That is utter bollocks.

You want to use it fine, I enjoy the game for fun but we'll have to agree to use apocalypse rules at least as far as force selection goes. And that is great because unbalanced games are normally good fun.

Turn up to a normal 1500 point game and I will think you are trying to chisel an advantage. The codices are set up to be balanced and to pick and choose from others spoils that balance.

Only my opinion obviously


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## IanC (Sep 3, 2010)

Stormraven, not Stormpigeon.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

the cabbage said:


> The codices are set up to be balanced and to pick and choose from others spoils that balance.


...BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....oh wait you were serious?, you actually believe the codex's are set for balance...wow, awkward.

and whats being said is that maybe you should keep an open mind, if even the BRB tells you the rules aren't important maybe you could take that as a giant fucking hint.


IanC said:


> Stormraven, not Stormpigeon.


actually its stormpigeon, stormshit, brickraven, stormbrick or just that stupid red piece of shit.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Well said Stella! 

If someone I knew wanted to use a Thunderfire cannon for his Blood Angels I would have no problem since there is no fluff reason why Blood Angels would not be able to get one.

However the Achilles is a bit more problematic since FW state that since the Achilles is only endorsed by those in favour with the Adeptus Mechanicus which the Blood Angels are not since they will not share the STC secret that gave them the Baal pred and Fast vehicles.

Why try to always win? Play for fun and remember that it is JUST A GAME!


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Stephen_Newman said:


> However the Achilles is a bit more problematic since FW state that since the Achilles is only endorsed by those in favour with the Adeptus Mechanicus which the Blood Angels are not since they will not share the STC secret that gave them the Baal pred and Fast vehicles.


true, but if someone spent allot of money time and effort to paint 1 you may as well just allow it for the hell of it, its still a HS after all, so no DS'ing achilles.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

When you put it that way.

Better to let it play. No one uses FW exclusive stuff in my store so it would be awesome just to see one used.


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## OrdoMalleus (Apr 24, 2009)

Fucking hell, why doesnt everyone get over themselves?

If your playing apocalypse take a stormraven, no one cares.
If youve painted one, your playing friendly, and you ask nicely, play it no one cares.
If your playing under 2000pts and its not in your codex, theres no fluff for you to have it YET (i.e your not GK or BA) and you dont bother asking me, then Fuck right off, you can play someone else.

If your SW or Codex marines, you shouldnt bother getting one to play with untill it its released to you ( which , tbf it probably will be given to you in your next dex) sinces its a unique unit to GKs and BA for the time being! Tough shit! let the BA angels have their own fucking toys and the  stop throwing your own toys ("thunderfail cannons was it?) out of the pram!!!!


LOUD NOISES!


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## bkiker (Jan 21, 2011)

Stella Cadente said:


> ...BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....oh wait you were serious?, you actually believe the codex's are set for balance...wow, awkward.


Again Stella hits the point.
Really...codex's being balanced. If you believe that, I've got a story about a fat man in a red suit that brings toys to good little boys and girls. 
The whole design process of a codex is, "Dude, how can we beat this unit?" or "How can we make this army bigger, badder, better, cooler, than the last army?"
All marine armies having Stormravens would not unbalance anything. I know ways I could kill it, and I know ways I could use it. 
I still don't understand why Blood Angels are being so whinny. Half of their codex is some kind of special unit. They have tanks that can deep strike, move 12 and fire everything, just about every unit has the chance of becoming Fearless and getting Furious Charge, a tank that's a Fast Attack choice, Assault squads as Troop choice, special units all over the place (Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Furioso Dreadnaught, Furioso Librain, Death Company Dreadnaught, 8 special characters. I could go on.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

I think it comes down to community, if I as much as try to only pay 35pt for my Sisters of Battle rhinos I would be called a cheater and yelled the hell out at my local game club.
If I tried to use a unit not in my codex I would get the same treatment, I would be lucky to get anyone to play me if I as much as suggested I'd like to use the Repressor from IA2.
There are not many people at my gaming club, about 2 people I could play against per week if Im lucky and they are always the same people. One person only plays to win and for no other reason while the other dont know how most rules work.
Bah, I need to move to a better location for this hobby...

As for codicies being written to be balanced? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

About this statement : 


> The whole design process of a codex is, "Dude, how can we beat this unit?" or "How can we make this army bigger, badder, better, cooler, than the last army?"


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'd say GW only has one design philosophy and it's : How can we make it so everyone will want to buy this new kit we have just come out with, preferably 3-6 kits per person.

They go about this in 4 ways :
1. Make the unit AWESOME!!
2. Make the unit pt cost effective.
3. Both of the above. (Valkyrie anyone?)
4. Make the unit look cool.

I'm actually surprised that Tyranids and Dark Eldar are so mediocre as they are, sure they have their strengths but nothing in either codicies scream AWESOME!!
Some units just seem mandatory than cool to field, genestealers an Tervigon for tyranids and Ravagers for Dark Eldar. Rest are just pretty meh overall compared to what the Imperial armies can field.

Then again it's pretty much the same for Imperial Armies, max out missile launchers and you are good to go.


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## bkiker (Jan 21, 2011)

MadCowCrazy said:


> One person only plays to win and for no other reason while the other dont know how most rules work.


There is were I think a lot problems come. The players that are all about winning. Of course they are not going to agree for you to use anything different because in might threaten their win. 

As for the Valkyrie, actually Forge World was the one that created the model first. I guess GW saw it and went, "Awww, that's so cool. We need to have it."

That's where I'm at with the Stormraven. For me, I think it's a very cool model, and I think it would be a really fun unit to play with. 

It was said earlier, and I just think people aren't bothering to care. This is a game. We play with little plastic army men. For God sake calm down. If you want to be an asshole about rules, fluff, and winning, please play with someone else or go away. I just want to have fun.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

the cabbage said:


> So.. are we saying now that not to be happy with your opponent playing pick and mix with marine codices makes you an arse. That is utter bollocks.


It's actually only Stella that's saying that.
Because, you know, Stella just likes whining about things.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Winterous said:


> It's actually only Stella that's saying that.
> Because, you know, Stella just likes whining about things.


really now?...REALLY?, your either blind or just stupid and ignorant...I'm leaning towards the second since its more your style winterous.

try going through all 14 pages to alleviate your ignorance, if I am STILL the only one supporting the use of the stormpigeon by other forces (not playing pick and mix which I never said once so cabbage can shut his face as well) then get glasses


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> really now?...REALLY?, your either blind or just stupid and ignorant...I'm leaning towards the second since its more your style winterous.
> 
> try going through all 14 pages to alleviate your ignorance, if I am STILL the only one supporting the use of the stormpigeon by other forces (not playing pick and mix which I never said once so cabbage can shut his face as well) then get glasses


No need to throw a shitfit Stella, you're not beyond telling lies about people so why should people care what the say about you?

Playing Stormravens in Space Marines and Thunderfire Cannons in Blood Angels is playing pick'n'mix Marines.


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## SeraphTC (Jan 26, 2011)

Ok....so 14 pages in and we know this to be true:

1) The rules are in WD so you don't need a codex handy if you want to use them
2) The rules in the rulebook say you can do whatever you like with your opponents permission
3) Some people will just not allow you to take an item that's not in your codex
4) Some people will allow you to take an item that's not in your codex as long as you ask their permission
5) This thread has achieved very little except causing a toy throwing match between people who want to play RAW, people who want to play for fun, and people who want to throw insults at each other.

Summation: Take whatever you want in a game as long as your opponent agrees - if they don't you can't take it. 

As per the rulebook.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Please, no more insults...


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Aramoro said:


> No need to throw a shitfit Stella, you're not beyond telling lies about people so why should people care what the say about you?


love to see these lies.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> love to see these lies.


Come on, it's your standard modus operandi, Troll a thread for no reason, troll it harder if someone disagrees with you. Make some thinly veiled insults, accuse them of being cat-rapists. 

If you want to see evidence, if you click on your profile, then 'Find More Posts by Stella Cadente', that's you pretty much done. But don't worry, it's always very funny so people don't mind. It's like having our own forum jester.


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## MadCowCrazy (Mar 19, 2009)

Locking thread since there isn't anything new that can be added to the topic until the fliers release or GW comes out with some new rulings.


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