# Gal's Thoughts on C:SW (Looong post. Minor correction on wolf priest)



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

So I've been reading through the new wolfdex and I've got some thoughts on it.

First off, wolves are very obviously better and cheaper, unit for unit, than C:SM, for the most part. That's not a shocker, there've been threads complaining about it. However, not everything is better or cheaper, but I'll get to that.

Let's start at the start then progress down the FOC

Everyone gets Counterattack...not a big deal, it effectively replaces Chapter Tactics.

Grey Hunters get BP/BG/CCW...this is a hell of a bump, but it replaces their old and shitty True Grit rule (Nailed it, by the way..., this is from November of 2007...)


Galahad said:


> I expect to see revised space wolves (if they ever get around to it) replacing their True Grit rule with just Bolter, BP and CCW for everyone.


Hee hee, it's like I'm a fucking psychic 
Anyhow, it is a big boost compared to normal Tactical marines, but they also lose Combat Squads. Combat Squads is a big deal in a game where only Troops get to score. Mraines can have up to 12 scoring units, Wolves only get up to six (and that's assuming you don't get Canis and waste your troops slots on non-scoring doggies). After having been spoiled y combat squads since CA, I must admit that losing it is kind of a blow.

Is it worth a 1 point reduction in per-body cost? Not really.
There's no doubt about it, Grey Hunters are a much better value than either Chaos Marines (Who don't get Counter Attack OR ATSKNF) or Tactical Marines (Who don't get a nifty bonus attack and cost a point more). I'll get into more detail on that later though.

It's worth noting though that ONLY Grey Hunters get the bolter. Everyone else is BP/CCW with the option to replace the pistol or CCW for bolters and other weapons.

There's one more special rule they get, and that's 'Leaders of the Pack'
Space Wolves get double the HQ slots of anyone else (meaning 4 for standard missions), but their Unique characters are ungodly expensive (but all pretty badass), and no non-unique characters may share the same Saga, or combination of psychic powers or wargear. This really is a bit of a pain, but not a major handicap.

The wording of the rule is a tiny bit murkey though. "No two characters may bear the same saga, nor may the bear the same psychic powers or wargear combination." Is that meant to mean that they cannot have the same psychic powers at all, or just the same combination of psychic powers or wargear? I lean towards the latter. Otherwise 'powers' wouldn't be plural and part of the wargear combination clause. It'd be 'no two characters may bear the same saga or psychic power, nor the same wargear combination' You can have the same power without having the same powers. 

In any event, that could use an FAQ/Errata, I'm sure.

Now, onto the list...

:hq: *HQ *:hq:
*Unique Characters...*
*Grimnar *is a beast. He's expensive as holy hell, but he may be worth it.
Compare him to Calgar...he's about 10 points more than Termie Cal, but he's got the same amount of attacks (higher base, but cal gets a bonus for 2 fists), same stats all around generally, except he has one less wound...BUT he has versatility in that if he wanted he could attack at I5 S5 instead of I1 S8, and he always hits on 3+ in assault so he could potentially take Cal apart before Pappa Smurf can swing back.

He also gives you Wolf Guard as troops...which is to say he gives you Elite Troopers, (cheap) Terminators, (insanely overpriced) Elite JPers and (grossly overpriced) Elite Bikers as troops. That's kind of a big deal.

*Stormcaller *also falls into the 'ungodly expensive but maybe worth it' category. Hsi storm special effect is very nice, and he gets an invul save. Rune Weapions are just plain better than Hoods and Force Weapons, and wolves have some insane psychic powers. He's about 15 more than chief Libby Tiggy, but worth the points. Again, the SW char would eat his ultra-counterpart for breakfast.

*Ragnar*...I'm a little on the fence on. He;s an absolute beast in CC, but he's about 40 points more than Lysander or Sicarius who are of comparable rank. Ragnar is nastier than either, I think, but maybe not 40 points better. He doesn't really have a lot in the line of special rules. His incredible reflexes are just a sub for iron halo. Saga of the Warrior Born is pretty badass, at least in potential. Insane Bravado is really good though and should give you a good first-phase kill-count to take advantage of his Saga. War Howl is nice, but kind of meh since it's only once per game. 

I kind of get the feeling that Raggy is best in apoc or games where you face down a lot of horde units. He's like a fucking vortex grenade...you just hook him up with almost any other unit (a pack of grey hunters, or maybe a mob of bloodclaws) and just hurl him into large concentrations of enemy models and watch him devour.

*Ulrik the Slayer *is, well, he;s the fucking Slayer.
He can kick CHaplain Cassie's ass back to Ultramar, and he comes with a free upgrade for any other model in your army, which is nice. He's kinda spendy (55 more than Cassie). He's got better stats all around and while he doesn't have the 'reroll misses on the charge' that most libbies have, he can really ruin the day of anyone with T5 or higher, charging or not, every round. Again though, it's kind of 'Better, but enough better to make up his points?' question.

*Canis *is pretty decent. He's cheaper than and better than a copmparably equipped Wolfguard Battle Leader, he has some crazy insane abilities (like being able to swap his base attacks with the number of models in B2B with him...and he comes on a 60mm Dreadnought base), and he makes Fenrisian Wolves pretty moderately badass. If the dumb muts could score it would make him an almost no-brainer choice. As it is, he's decent.

*Bjorn*...oh how we love you. Hopefully if they brought BJ in it may mean future versions of C:BA might have Moriar.
He's 20 more than a Land Raider, and that's without upgrade s(but you can upgrade him, how cool is that? Swap out his assault cannon with a plascannon for free, or swap it for a TLLC for 10 points less than the normal Ven Dread (though you're working from an asscan rather than MM, so it works out the same). He's expensive, but is he worth it?
I think so. The fucker is all but unkillable. AV13 front, Plus Venerable, PLUS he has a 5+ invul, PLUs he negates any psychic power used against him on a 5+ (and that's before rolling to hit, penetrate, get hast his invul and be mitigated by his venerableness), he's got twice the attacks of a ven dread and hits on a 3+ and he's BS6, so even his shooting is godly.

If you have the points, he may well be worth it. Only downside is no Drop Pod option

Now for the non-unique characters.

*Wolf Lord* = Chapter Master.
At first glance, he's cheaper, but the Chapter Master gets Iron Halo, which the SW version (Belt of Russ) is optional and costs the same as the difference in their costs. So if you give him the belt of russ, the Wolf Lord has no orbital bombardment, but gets +1A. I kind of like having the belt optioinal though because that makes Storm Shields a lot more attractive and practical option. (If you factor out the cost of the belt of russ, storm shield is only a 5 point upgrade for wolf lord, but three times that for chapter masters)

Orbital Bombardment is a loss though. That was a nice power. 

Wargear lists are comparable. 
You don't get some of the neato near SM gear but SW special gear is pretty damned good, and some of those sagas are godly
If you're not in a hurry (or don't mind giving up shooting) Thunderwolf Mounts are pretty badass, and the toughness bonus isn;t parenthetical like with bikes. Limits you on who you can join up to though.

*WG Battle Leader*'s stats are a step down from Captains though, but once you factor in the belt of russ it's 5 cheaper. 1 less WS, W and LD is a stiff price to pay for that 5 point discount though. Granted, you can skip the belt and have a much cheaper model, but I include it in the cost for comparison's sake.
And unfortunately, there is no mounted assault rule for them. 

I actually chalk this one up as not worth it compared to a captain, but the option to make him much cheaper by not paying for an invul save is a nice one if you want a discount mandatory HQ

*Rune Priest* vs Libby...no contest
Same price as a Libby and same basic statline, but the priest is just better. Runic Weapon is a Force Weapon and Hood in one...except it always negates on a 4+ (instead of opposed LD checks) and it wounds daemons on a 2+ At no extra charge.

They don't get combi-weapons as an option, but can take Runic armor (Artificer with a 5+ invul vs psychic). Termie armor is 5 points cheaper (same price as runic), and they can have combi-weapons with terminator armor. Cheaper too, by and large.

The only real loss is that they cannot take storm shields.

Psychic powers are comparable. Jaws of the Wolf is just fucking insane though. Draw a 24" line. Any model that touches that line has to roll an Initiative check (roll I or less on 1d6, 1 auto-pass, 6-auto fail) or they are removed, period. No effect on vehicles and MCs get a -1 on the roll (which in this case is better). Expect to see biker or JP wolf-jaw priests cropping up a lot.

Wolf tooth necklace is pretty much mandatory upgrade. Hitting on a 3+ in assault is a good thing when you're a librarian.

*Wolf Priest *vs Chappy...this one is harder. Correction, it's a no-brainer too, sorry
Same cost, same stats, just as before. Wolf-flavored versions of the normal chappy wargear.

Oath of War vs Liturgies, I like Oath better. Pick a unit type (Infantry, Bikes, etc) and you get Preferred Enemy vs them for the game. That's better than rerolling misses on the charge, IMO.

However, there's no Honour of the Chapter or equivelant. the priest has Fearless, which means fuck all if he doesn't join up with a fearless unit (of which there are none) or stay solo (which is unwise). That's kind of a let down and makes hm a wash with a normal chappy. The ability to take Sagas is nice if you want to pay more points. All in all they're still a decent unit to throw into an assault group, but not as tactically useful as a chappy, I think.

Bah! Correction on this, I forgot the Fang of Morkai grants Fearless to any unit the priest joins. So they ARE better than chaplains.
My apologies for the error, I was looking under rules, but I forgot SW like to hide their special rules in their wargear sometimes.
So yeah, wolf priest vs Chaplain = Wolf Priest. Being able to make a unit fearless is nice to have in this buggery low LD list. Might just take a swarm of the bastards, if rune priests weren't so good.

Wargear comparable. Termie armor is 10 cheaper than for a chappy, but the chappy's JP is 10 cheaper than the priest's

The big loss in the HQ section is the lack of Honour Guard or Command Squad type units.

This is a BIG letdown, because not only does it mean there are no apothecaries to grant FNP to your beastly expensive HQ characters, but it puts a major strain on Wolf Guard units. I relaize Wolf Guard are meant to be the bodyguard corps of the SWs, but the same could be said for the 1st Company of a normal chapter. Normal 1st company have HG, Command Squads, Stern and Van vets, Terminators and Vet Sarges all as part of their organization, but as their own units. Wolfguard are just...Wolfguard. Which leads me to...

:elites: *Elites* :elites:
SM in general have over-crowded Elites sections, but for wolves in particular this is kind of crippling because of the aforementioned Wolf Guard problem.

*Wolf Guard* themselves are a very cool unit. +3 points over a Grey Hunter gets you +1A, +1Ld, and some cool options. Uynfortunately the boltgun is only available if you trade in the BP or CCW, so that puts them a little behind the Grey Hunters.

Everyone is talking about their Terminator option. You can have a Wolfguard termie with PW and SB for 7 points less than a normal termie. And if you bought a PW and SB on their own, the terminator armor is only a 2 point upgrade LOL. That said though, if you buy them fists it comes oout to 3 more than a normal term (though if you have 4 fists and 1 PW like a normal term squad you end up only 4 more than normal total)

But to me, just having the option of a PW instead of a fist is worth the extra points. Finally a chance to hit on I4 but still shoot. And for the same cost as a fist you can have a froost blade, which is a +1S power weapon, so that's nice.

However, they are not cheap at all if you want Assault termies.
Normal terminators with a PF and SB cost the same as ssault termies with TH and SS, or a pair of LCs.

But a Wolfguard termie with TH and SS will run you about 20 points more than a normal SM. Claw units are cheaper, but still more than SM claw termies (granted, wolf claws are a little better, so it could be a wash)

So for all the talk of cheap WG termies, it's basically not true unless you just go for straight PW and SB/special weapon jobbies. fists or any sopecial melee weapons will cost you, a lot.

Unfortunately, while they thought far enough ahead to give them cheap termie armor, they didn;t bother giving them reasonably rpized JPs or bikes, charging normal IC costs for those items. This makes units of Biker or JP wolfguard pretty insanely costly, and having them tag along with a biker pack is a disproportionately (and prohibitively) costly upgrade. 

So, as vets, or as cut-rate termies, they're a good unit, but for anything else they're costly...and for IC bodyguards they're downright impractical, since unlike REAL bodyguard units, they count against your FOC. They should have writen a rule that said for every HQ char you have you got the option to buy a WG pack that doesn't count against yoru slots (maybe make it so you can't break members off). But they didn't...so your ultimate bodyguards are kinda impractical.

But they're more than just that. They're also a really impractical replacement for vet sarges!
Rather than just give their units the ability to buy a WG pack leader as an upgrade character, they instead make you buy a pack of WG with one of your precious elite slots and then break models off. Granted, this can lead to some really sick wargear combinations (like putting a Cyclone Termie in with your Long Fangs, but in general it pretty much sucks. 

Not only does it cost you an FOC slot, not only is some of the requisite wargear too costly (biker pack leaders are not practical), but the WG babysitter isn't counted as one of the squad's number for the purpose of determining things like availability of weapons. So if you want two specials in your Grey Hunters with a WG escort, you can give up on having a dedicated transport (especially since they nerfed drop pod transport capacity)

So, yeah...I'm really not psyched about Wolfguard. Especially since they cannot be added to all units (this gets hilarious later)

Rockfist is a monstrous badass, but I'm not sure if he's worth the points.

*Dreads and Ven Dreads* are the same, except that Dreads can buy Talismans and Necklaces for them, which are nice upgrades, but maybe not worth it (Tails are cheap, but dreads aren't often targeted by psychic powers. Probably worth it. Necklaces are good, hitting on 3+ in melee, but not enough attacks to make it super useful) Venerables have those same options, plus can take Saga of Majesty, which is ok, but again not super useful. One wonders if they count as characters though, meaning could you have 3 ven dreads all with saga of majesty?

No Ironclads though, which is a shame.

*Iron Priest* vs Techmarine
Iron Priest has it, I think. Same cost at base, but the Priest hasn't got Bolster Defenses or IC status...instead he gets a free Thunder Hammer, and an Invul vs psychic. Worth the exchange, I think. The lack of IC status sucks though. 

No option for a Servo Harness either, wihch is another blow. Harnesses were always a good buy, no matter what role your techie had. Instead, the iron priest gets the option to buy a Thunderwolf (making him the only one who can have one outside of a wolf lord or WGBL), and can have Saga of the Iron Wolf, wihich lets him reroll repair checks and gives any vehicle he;s in a minor speed boost. He can also buy neclaklaces and tails. Priests cannot buy storm bolters or combis, so they really suck for options.

The henchmen are better for priests though. Servators are cheaper (as are their weapon options), and you can have cyberwolves, which are decent. But you only get 3 servators max and up to 4 cyberwolves.

Space wolves don't get Legion of the Damned (weird that the undead would be so picky, maybe wolves just don't like working with ghoulies)

*Wolf Scouts* are nice as always. Not a troop option (though they never were). Sniper rifles cost a couple points (but then they have a higher BS than C:SM scouts), and flamer, melta and plasma can be taken instead of HB and missiles (which are still options), but no Hellfire rounds. And two guys can take plas pistols or PWs, but no cammo cloaks. Behind Enemy Lines is a better form of ourflank.

In general they're a little more costly than normal scouts with a couple different options and slightly better stats, but nothing fantastic.

*Lone Wolf* is just lame. Forget him.
Basically a solo wolfguard model with an extra wound, FNP and eternal warrior for only a couple points more. Most of the same options available, except no bike/JP/transport. Not too bad but nobody can join him, he can't join anyone and if he doesn't die, you lose KP on him (Though he doesn't give up KP if he does die). He gets to reroll misses against MCs, Walkers and anything with T5 or more, but nothing impressive.

Really, I can think of no reason to waste an Elites slot on him. If he didn't cost a slot he might be worth considering, but really you're better off just investing those points in a WG you can attach to a squad, or in something else entirely. 

:troops: *Troops* :troops:

*Grey Hunters* are, as I said before, just really, really good. Point for point better than Tactical Marines or CSMs. Special weapons at 5 men. Second special (but no Heavy) at 10.

The lack of a heavy weapon kind of sucks, but it also makes things easier since you don't have Combat Squads. since you can't break off your heavy and 4 friends as a fireteam then you may as well just take a second special and have a big, mounted assault squad. And that's what this is, really. It's a footy assault squad. Give them a rhino and let them go. 

One GH may have a plas pistol (not worth it) and one may have a PW or Fist (doesn't have to be the same guy as the PP, but remember these guys are A1 base, so that's one fist attack for the full normal PF price), one can have Mark of Wulfen (not a bad option, really. Costs the same as a PW and gives him an Attacks characteristic of 1+1d6 and Rending (but he cannot use special melee weapons), and one can have a Wolf Standard. 

Wolf Standard is nice. Once per game you get to reroll all 1's for the span of one assault phase. (Handy if you're linked to a rune priest and he botches his psych test to use his rune weapon). Not a bad toy, but only one use, maybe not worth it. Depends, really.

You can attach a WG, but as I said, if you want to fit in a rhino you;re giving up a second special weapon. Sure, it could give you a second fist or something though. Tough call.

*Blood Claws* are so-so, really. They cost the same as Grey Hunters and don't get bolters. WS3 and BS3, so that sucks. Specials at 5, second special doesn't come til you hit 15, but at least it's free. One PP, one PW or fist, no Wulfen. And these are at WS3, and only A1 on the Fist.

Now, they do get +2A on the charge (instead of +1) so they make nice shock troops...and they hit WS4 on a 4+ just like normal marines (they're just easier to hit in return and have a harder time hitting anything over WS4), so again, shock-troopy. Not meant for holding the line. However, there's a big dose of suck with that.

They have a special rule that forces them to charge the nearest unit fi they are within 6", and they do NOT get to shoot that turn. This makes flamers absolutely useless, and meltas barely functional (can't shoot at melta range, can't get that pre-charge easy kill). Granted, if you attach an IC or WG this goes away, so it's not a bad idea to give these boys a babysitter, especially if you're going for a big pack in a Crusader.

Lukas the Trickster is nice, but he costs almost as much as ten bloody models. I wouldn't bother with him.

:fa: *Fast Attack* :fa:

*Thunderwolf Cavalry* are nice, but really expensive. Each one costs the same as a basic Landspeeder. But where a landspeeder or Attack bike is about mobile shooting, these guys are all assault all the time...it's like an attack bike for assaulting. Their statlines are insane. S5, T5, 2 Wounds, and 4 attacks base! (5 if you count the BP CCW bonus), and they've got rending. Sadly, these elite badasses are only LD8 likie all the rest of the army, you cannot take a WG for them, ICs on thunderwolves are insanely expensive and don't come in chaplain or librarian flavors, and of course, the thunderwolf techmarine is not an IC, so effective leadership is a problem.

They're pretty customizable though, which means you cna make them all unique for assigning wounds, but that just makes them costlier. They can have Storm Shields, which is cool, but that's adding a ton of points to an already very costly mini. Any model can have a Boltgun (for free, if you;re insane enough to want it), a PP, or Storm Shield, and any can have Meltabombs. One may have a PW, (single)Claw, Frostblade, PF, or Hammer, and one guy can take Mark oif thw Wulfen at a steep discount compared to other models, but not worth it since you already rend and have as much chance of rolling the same or actually *fewer* attacks than normal than you do of getting any kind of bonus from it.

If you think of them as an assault-based alternative to Attack Bike or Speeder Squads they're not a bad idea. They can get really pricey though.

*Swiftclaw Bikers* are just Bloodclaws on bikes...and they SUCK. They cost the same as SM bikers, per model but have BS3/WS3! THey get that extra attack on the charge, but again without a very expensive IC or WG babysitter, they don't get to fire before charging, which makes flamers and meltas neigh useless, and really takes the punch out of those relentless Plasguns or TL bolters. I really want to like these guys, but without a cost-effective babysitter option, they're just not worth it. Oh, their Attack Bikes are 10 points cheaper, but did I mention BS3 and no shooting at 6"?

*Skyclaw Packs* are, if anything, even WORSE than swiftclaws. Again, Bloodclaws, but this time with JPs. And again, they cost the same as C:SM assault marines, per model for BS3/WS3 and no shooting at 6" but what makes them worse? Well, they can take a Flamer, Melta or Plasgun...which is a step up over normal assault squads...and their flamers are half price...but remember how I said flamers and meltas are useless without a babysitter? Well, for some reason Skyclaws were *omitted* from the list of units you can attach a WG to! So even though Wolfguard can buy (overpriced) JPs, you cannot stick one onto a Skyclaw pack...which makes their flamer option completely and utterly useless, unless you want to stick a JP IC in the middle of a swarm of cubs.

It's hilariously useless. Maybe as 5 man suicide shocktropers (Maybe throw in a fist snce it'll get 3 swings on the charge), or JP IC bodyguards, but generally not worth it. Sad, really sad.

*Land Speeders* seem about the same, however it looks like they're trying to limit you to one Typhoon.
"Any Land Speeder may be upgraded to a Land Speeder Tornado armed with one of the following...."
But
"Alternatively, a Land Speeder may be upgraded to a Land Speeder Typhoon..."
The wording there is a little sloppy. Does 'A land speeder' mean only one? I think that's what the meant (they have it separated from tornadoes unlike the layout in the C:SM) but 'a landspeeder' doesn't necessarily mean only one. If I said "A librarian may have two psychic powers" does that mean only one librarian can have two powers? I forsee squabbles over this one.

They have no Attack Bike squad option, but that's probably for the better since they'd just be more damned useless bloodclaws.

*Fenrisian Wolves* are an interesting option. They're half the price of a C:SM marine and a little more than half the cost of a bloodclaw or GH. Marine statline except A2, LLD5 and only a 6+ save. They're beasts, of course, and have Counter-Attack. 5-15 in a pack. Somehow claws and fangs only count as one CCW, but that's normal. You can upgrade one model to a Cyberwolf for the cost of a normal wolf (making the cyber double the cost of one wolf). Cyberwolves have +1T, +1A and +1LD, and a 4+ save.

Really, I want to like these guys, but I'm underwhelmed. If you had the option of buying all cyberwolves, it might be good, or if their LD wasn;t so intensely lame. (they do get to reroll failed morale checks if they're within 12" of a unit of Thunderwolf Cav, but meh.)

Canis makes them almost worth taking. In addition to making them Troops, Fen Wolves within 12" of him get to use his LD (but don;t get to reroll failed checks, oddly), and his Saga (which some other ICs can buy) gives all fenn wolves I5 and Ld7, which is pretty nice. and that I5 Ld7 thing can be bought for wolflords, wGBLs and wolf priests if you want.

Unfortunately they have a special rule that says they can never control objectives, which means taking them as troops is a waste since they still cannot score.

If wolf-troops could score, and/or you could buy more cyberwolves, I might like them more. Otherwise they're not great, but probably one of the most practical FA choices for the wolves. It's a choice between weak and cheap, awesome but expensive...or a handfull of suck.

:hs: *Heavy Support* :hs:
Sadly, no Leman Russes to be had. I can already hear Jervis shouting "Play Apocalypse!".

*Longfang Packs* are better than Devastators, point for point. And they get more heavy weapons (which is nice since you can't have them in tacticals). Longfangs are now 1-5 + Pack Leader. Each regular Longfang must replace his pistol with a heavy weapon (which means no pistols for shoot-before-charge...not that you want to get in assualt range, really). Heavy Bolters and Lascannons are 10 cheaper, all the others are 5 less, which is very nice. The pack leader may take a special weapon and/or a PW/PF (technically, he could take two special weapons, but onviously you only get to fire one). This is pretty cool, but chances are your pack leader is never going to fire since both the Signum and the Fire-Control ability require him not shooting.

The only downside, of course, is that these are fragile units. There are literally no spare bodies. Every unsaved wound will cost you either your ability to split your shooting, or a heavy weapon. But did I mention they're not that expensive? If you're not into tanks there's no reason not to stock up on longfang packs. 

*Predators, Vindies, Whirlies, Redeemers and Crusdaders* are the same. Normal Land Raiders have their transport capacity reduced to 10 models...I really hope this was a typo. Drop pods got the same weird nerf.

There are no thunderfire cannons.

All in all, I really like the SW Codex. It's not as grossly overpowered as initial hype suggests, but many of their units are flat out better than C:SM.


----------



## KarlFranz40k (Jan 30, 2009)

Thanks very much gal! They seem not as terribly cheesed as I thought when I heard about JotWW, seem quite balanced now actually.....


----------



## morfangdakka (Dec 31, 2006)

This was a very cool right up. I have not had a chance to look at the new SW codex yet so it good to get an honest opinion of the codex. Especially from you, someone that is not going to sugar coat things and tell it like it is. SW was my very first army and now with their release maybe I will have to get another SW put back together, it will atleast give me a reason to use those two forgeworld drop pods that I have had for years.


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

KarlFranz40k said:


> Thanks very much gal! They seem not as terribly cheesed as I thought when I heard about JotWW, seem quite balanced now actually.....


Well, Jaws of the World Wolf is still pretty insane. I mean, it's free and has a decent chance of destroying anything it touches. But it doesn't work against vehicles, jetbikes, jump inf or bigass apocalypse monsters. You will be seeing it in tourney lists and you will be hearing people complain about it. But the whole book isn't jaws of the world wolf ;-)



morfangdakka said:


> This was a very cool right up. I have not had a chance to look at the new SW codex yet so it good to get an honest opinion of the codex. Especially from you, someone that is not going to sugar coat things and tell it like it is.


Thanks, mate, that means a lot to me. 



> SW was my very first army and now with their release maybe I will have to get another SW put back together, it will atleast give me a reason to use those two forgeworld drop pods that I have had for years.


SW and Angels of Death were the first two codices I ever bought for the game, back in 2nd edition. I bought models for both back then because they were cool and I wasn't really playing. When I first really got into it at 3rd I agnoized over which to pick as my army.

Wolves came in second but they still have a spot in my heart.


----------



## Trevor Drake (Oct 25, 2008)

Very nice Galahad. Although I am afraid the Space Pups are stuck with regualr 10-model capacity from everything I have read with the exception of the Crusader/Redeemer. All the new Landraiders have came with a capacity of 10 models only.


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yeah, agree with most of that.. especially the loooong part.

One place I would disagree on is the wolves- sure they dont sound too good, but compare them to hormogaunts and suddenly they look immense: <24" charge range with 3 S4 attacks each, which if they are I5 is awesome... if only they could take grenades.

Only other thing I would mention is on Long Fangs: who needs extra ablative wounds when heavy bolter LFs are just so damn cheap (+5pts over a SM devy marine and not useless)... LFs are better in every way then SM equivalents; taking them is never a bad plan no matter who you are facing (as long as the weapon setup is right).

EDIT- I did some mathhammer on JofWW; its better then a plasmagun that can allocate wounds directly to ICs... plus you get to hit whatever else lies on the line. Against nidzilla/nurgle/necrons/orks (norks?) it'll just be evil


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Trevor Drake said:


> Very nice Galahad. Although I am afraid the Space Pups are stuck with regualr 10-model capacity from everything I have read with the exception of the Crusader/Redeemer. All the new Landraiders have came with a capacity of 10 models only.


I can still hope it's a typo fixable with an FAQ. I mean why on earth would their drop pods and land raiders have less capacity? Sure, BA and DA have the same problem, but that's from them being written prior to the upgrade.

Ah well. I still like Crusaders better anyhow. And you can get a slotless one as a dedicated transport option for one unit of wolfguard. If all your wolfguard are tied up as babysitters then it's basicaly an extra HS slot. Leave syou more room for longfangs :grin:



Tim/Steve said:


> Yeah, agree with most of that.. especially the loooong part.


Sick thing is, I can see places where I feel like expanding on it...



> One place I would disagree on is the wolves- sure they dont sound too good, but compare them to hormogaunts and suddenly they look immense: <24" charge range with 3 S4 attacks each, which if they are I5 is awesome... if only they could take grenades.


I'm not saying they;re terrible, just that they underwhelmed me a bit. Maybe I was extra bitter after the pathetic showing in the bikers and JP departnent.

I'd love to try Canis or Ragnar with 17 wolves (14 normal with 1 cyber upgrade, plus canis or ragnar and their 2 optional wolves) Oh I forgot to mention, ragnar's wolves are optional and have a 5+ save. Despite being named and having diferent saves they;re still explicitly fen wolves so would get upgraded by canis or another wolfkin-saga holder)

Canis and a maxed out wolf pack would be about 333 points, but would be able to dish out about 60 attacks on I5.

Like I said, they're decent but I felt they could have been better. Atleast gaunts can hold objectives.



> Only other thing I would mention is on Long Fangs: who needs extra ablative wounds when heavy bolter LFs are just so damn cheap (+5pts over a SM devy marine and not useless)... LFs are better in every way then SM equivalents; taking them is never a bad plan no matter who you are facing (as long as the weapon setup is right).


True. It stings a little more if you're losing lascannons, but hell, at least you can afford to have lascannons.

I still prefer all missiles on my heavy teams, longfangs included. Have one group fire kraks at the side of the enemy tank while the other lays down a rain of frags on that approaching infantry unit. And like I said, if you want to pay the extra points you can sneak in a cyclone termie for a pair of extra missiles. Of course then it stops being cheap..but it;s still less than a 10 man dev squad.



> EDIT- I did some mathhammer on JofWW; its better then a plasmagun that can allocate wounds directly to ICs... plus you get to hit whatever else lies on the line. Against nidzilla/nurgle/necrons/orks (norks?) it'll just be evil


Yeah, expect it to become the next lash. Maybe not quite as frustrating to deal with, but yeah, keep your big valuable characters well away from the rune priests,and keep your rune priests mobile and well guarded. The lack of strong, fast FA options can bite the wolf player here, since you;ve got to rely on the damned clawboys to screen your jumping or biking priest...but then again, they;ve got a power that gives cover saves, and they can shoot JOTWW through terrain, so having mobile meat shields isn't as necessary.


----------



## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

Very nice read Gal, I do find it strange about the Sky and Swiftclaws though seeing as they have never been mentioned before.


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Something you didn't mention, but I think should be pointed out is that SW Dreads come with an Assault Cannon as standard instead of a multi-melta, saving you 10 pts, because unless you're drop podding, I think almost anyone would take an Assault Cannon over a melta.

I doubt the 10 model capacity is a typo. It's probably to stop you having stupid combos of Special Character, Wolf Guard, Grey Hunters or something driving up to you in a Land Raider or Drop podding Turn 1. Maybe.

Not as powerful as they could have been, but as an Eldar player the "Better psychic hoods" thing pisses me off, like Librarians weren't an instant-nerf to Eldar players (and no-one else but Chaos) in the first place. Oh well, guess I'll just make you take your tests on 3D6 and kill you first!


----------



## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

My main problem?
They made my Leman Russ Exterminator null and void.
Bastards...


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

dark angel said:


> Very nice read Gal, I do find it strange about the Sky and Swiftclaws though seeing as they have never been mentioned before.


Everyone seems to be focusing on the awesome/crazy powerful stuff rather than the just plain crap. As a BA player, fast attack was the first thing I looked at ;-)



Sethis said:


> Something you didn't mention, but I think should be pointed out is that SW Dreads come with an Assault Cannon as standard instead of a multi-melta, saving you 10 pts, because unless you're drop podding, I think almost anyone would take an Assault Cannon over a melta.


Whoops, I missed that entirely. Good point! Space wolf dreads get a nice little boost there, but only if you were getting an AssCan. You can swap it for a MM or TL Heavy Flamer for free, but unlike Bjorn you pay the full normal price if you want any other weapon options (as opposed to BJ who subtracts 10 from the cost of his plascannon or TLLC options)

Odd that they factor the AssCan cost in for BJ, but not for normal dreads



> I doubt the 10 model capacity is a typo. It's probably to stop you having stupid combos of Special Character, Wolf Guard, Grey Hunters or something driving up to you in a Land Raider or Drop podding Turn 1. Maybe.


Unfortunately, it also prevents you from buying a wolf guard if you want all your options and a decent transport. I really fail to see how a wolf guard and an IC joined to a grey hunter squad in a normal LR is somehow abusive, but 'Nillas with two ICs and a walking assault squad in a LR is fine, or why an IC and a WG with grey hunters in a redeemer or crusader is fine.

There's relaly no common sense answer for why the normal LR got nerfed but the other two did not.



> Not as powerful as they could have been, but as an Eldar player the "Better psychic hoods" thing pisses me off, like Librarians weren't an instant-nerf to Eldar players (and no-one else but Chaos) in the first place. Oh well, guess I'll just make you take your tests on 3D6 and kill you first!


Yeah, Eldar have no place complaining about effective counter-psych as long as you've got those bloody runes 
Besides, they nerfed hoods and runic weapins both down to 24" as opposed to unlimited so...yeah... :fuck:

And actually, now that I think about it, the runic weapon is actually a little worse than a hood against low-LD psykers. The old opposed checks system gave you a 50/50 chance against anyone with the same LD score as you, and a better chance against people with a lower LD. The new one is 4+ across the board...so it's simpler, but has the same chance of blocking a LD10 sorcerer as it does of blocking a lone weirdboy.

It's unquestionably better than a bloody force weapon though. Wounding daemons on a 2+ should be fuckigng standard for force weapons, it's what they were invented for after all, and now that every damned daemon has Eternal Warrior, it needed something of a boost.



Vrykolas2k said:


> My main problem?
> They made my Leman Russ Exterminator null and void.
> Bastards...


Indeed.
But it wasn't unexpected. They took bassies from the IW, and daemons away form CSMs after all. Cross-codex options are going the way of overwatch. And if you ask GW they'll just tell you to play Apocalypse...which makes me think 'Apocalypse' has to be a code word for 'Fuck off'


----------



## tu_shan82 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's a pretty good review you've written up for us Gal. It puts things into perspective. I must also say that I find it interesting that all the Vanilla SM players were complaining about the new Space Puppies codex, especially considering all a lot of them could say to us poor old BA and DA players was "live with it or use the newer codex". Any how have some rep for making things all that much clearer.

Edit: It won't let me give you anymore rep because I've given you some quite recently in another thread. Can't recall exactly which thread it was, but I'll try and remember to rep you down the track, once I've dealt out enough rep to other members.


----------



## MarzM (Jan 26, 2007)

Galahad:

NIce write up. The transport thing is not a typo. As far as i can tell it is to help balance out Wolves. It forces the player to make hard choices over his/her army. Do they go for multi meltsguns or do they go for the wolvguard with better leadership and a combiweapon. I personally think this i a very well written codex. It is clever with some really good combo's! (i know some people are already looking at grimnar and longfangs in a drop pod!)

If you are looking for a fluff reason, since i have played wolves since 2nd ed. The reason could be down to bulk! The Ore on Fenris is meant to be rubbish compaired to other planets, for this reason Wolves weapons tend to be bigger to compensate for the pressure that they are under!! In fact i think i still have the Journel somewhere that shows the size of a wolves stormbolter compaired to 2 others!!

I think you underestimate the skyclaws, however i do agree that swiftclaws aren't that good. 

So far i think it is a really well written codex and once the "OH MY GOD" factor dies down people will see a good list (as long as people dont put in 4 rune priests) and even if they do, well they will have bugger all else in the army!! lol


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

tu_shan82 said:


> That's a pretty good review you've written up for us Gal. It puts things into perspective. I must also say that I find it interesting that all the Vanilla SM players were complaining about the new Space Puppies codex, especially considering all a lot of them could say to us poor old BA and DA players was "live with it or use the newer codex". Any how have some rep for making things all that much clearer.


Everybody whines every time there's a new codex. They just trade off whether it's people complaining about their own new dex or someone else's.



> Edit: It won't let me give you anymore rep because I've given you some quite recently in another thread. Can't recall exactly which thread it was, but I'll try and remember to rep you down the track, once I've dealt out enough rep to other members.


Keep it, I got plenty. It's the thought that counts.



MarzM said:


> Galahad:
> 
> NIce write up. The transport thing is not a typo. As far as i can tell it is to help balance out Wolves. It forces the player to make hard choices over his/her army. Do they go for multi meltsguns or do they go for the wolvguard with better leadership and a combiweapon. I personally think this i a very well written codex. It is clever with some really good combo's! (i know some people are already looking at grimnar and longfangs in a drop pod!)
> 
> If you are looking for a fluff reason, since i have played wolves since 2nd ed. The reason could be down to bulk! The Ore on Fenris is meant to be rubbish compaired to other planets, for this reason Wolves weapons tend to be bigger to compensate for the pressure that they are under!! In fact i think i still have the Journel somewhere that shows the size of a wolves stormbolter compaired to 2 others!!


Sure, fine...how come Redeemers and Crusaders still have 12 and 16 capacity then?  Are they sleek import models? "Oh, we did it on purpose" is a great way to cover a fuckup :grin:



> I think you underestimate the skyclaws,


How so?
They cost the same as normal assault marines, get hit more often, can't shoot as well, don't get to shoot within 6" Can buy an utterly useless flamer that they physically cannot use, and you can't even buy them an overpriced babysitter to make them useful. The extra attack on the charge is okay, but if you do the math, shooting the damned pistols for a regular assault squad is actually more effective than an extra attack on the charge. Even at BS3 it helps more.

Think about it: A regular assault marine hits on 3+ for shooting, but 4+ in assault against other marines. That shooting attack has the same strength as their normal assault attack. The AP is negligable, but it;s a factor against some enemies. So firing your BPs then charging is like having a bonus attack that hits on a 3+ and strikes before anyone, even if you're charging someone in cover or with a higher I.

Now...trade that in for a WS3 attack that goes on I4...not a good trade. Certainly not worth being even-up for points cost compared to normal assault squads.

*If* you can get them an IC to negate that 'no shooting on the charge' thing they suddenly become halfway ok...but as I said, they can't have a wolfguard, so you have to dedicate an HQ character just to make these guys not suck. 



> So far i think it is a really well written codex and once the "OH MY GOD" factor dies down people will see a good list (as long as people dont put in 4 rune priests) and even if they do, well they will have bugger all else in the army!! lol


Four priests would be hard to manage with wargear/power restrictions.
Expect two to be fairly standard though.

I've got a correction to make too...


me fucking up said:


> *Wolf Priest *vs Chappy...this one is harder. Correction, it's a no-brainer too, sorry
> Same cost, same stats, just as before. Wolf-flavored versions of the normal chappy wargear.
> 
> Oath of War vs Liturgies, I like Oath better. Pick a unit type (Infantry, Bikes, etc) and you get Preferred Enemy vs them for the game. That's better than rerolling misses on the charge, IMO.
> ...


Serves me right staying up hours past bedtime to get this thing out.


----------



## Trevor Drake (Oct 25, 2008)

Gal, you forget that the Crusader has always had the larger transport capacity, following suit with the Redeemer, because they require much less space for the weapon systems and have more room for troops. Its explained in the Space Marine Codex, and also the same reason a Razorback can only carry 6 troops rather than the 10 a Rhino can carry, even though they are basically the same chassis.


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Except the redeemer has the same transport capacity as a normal land raider. It was invented with the same capacity. So if you reduce the capacity of the nomral LR for no apparent reason, or for the supposedly on purpose 'make some decisions' reason, why didn't they change the capacity of the variant with an identical number of seats? Apparently the fuel tanks for those mega-flamers take the same amount of space as the laser power generators. Except for wolves.

And if they can knock two models off the transport capacity of the LR for whatever reason they want, why didn't they knock two off of the crusader? So what if Crusaders always have 16 seats. As of the new SM codex, land raiders have twelve seats. If you're going to tamper with its transport capacity for whatever nebulous reason you want, why not change the other too?

The "We did it so you would have to make decisions" line doesn't wash if you only altered one variant. Meanwhile if you take the two vehicles (pods and raiders) that had their capacity increased in the last book, and turn them back down, it seems much more likely that they were just working from old copy and forgot to check before going to print...then said "Oh, we did that on purpose."


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I think its rather lame truth be told. Unless your using Rune Priest with Grey Wolves through your entire list and generic Termies with Long Fangs, then and only then will you be competitive. Like the Current Chaos dex where DPs, Cult Troops, and Oblits are the only competive choice is the same here with SWs. Why cant GW creat a product where unit are useful in all areas in some way than pick these or units or prepare to have fun losing. Seems all The Blood Claws are usless, the Wolf Gaurd use up Elite Slots, the lack of Leman Russes kill the fluff, and the Wolves pups are not scoring so not a good choice. The HQ slots are awsome but thats it for saving grace from what I see. Guess have to wait a year to see the Pratical lists and tourny outcomes for this Dex.


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Regular Blood claws aren't bad, provided you give them a babysitter
I think they should have come at a discount, even if only a point, but they're not useless. 

My main complaint lies with the fast attack cousins because there is no cost effective babysitter to make them worth using.

To substitute a blood claw for a wolfguard is a net cost increase of 3 points (plus upgrades, if you want). Three poits to make them an effective assault option.

To swap out a swiftclaw for a wolf guard on a bike is a 28 point gain
To swap a skyclaw out for the very cheapest JP IC option is a 77 point upgrade for a naked wolfguard battle leader with a JP.

And those are just the cost to replace one with the other. Obviously if you want to add to the unit you'll have to add the cost of one of the pups.

I'll pay three points to make blood claws effective. I'm not going to pay 28 or 77 points to make the other clawpups useful.

A pack of regular bloodclaws with a wolfguard babysitter is a good assault unit. Their WS3 doesn't impact their ability to hit other MEQs, though it does make them easier to hit in return and makes problems if they're fighting anything better or worse, but get enough of them and it;s something scary.

A wolf priest attached to a bigass bloodclaw pack and put in a crusader is still a deadly (if expensive) menace, especially since the oath of war makes up for a lot of their WS problems.

Except for the two lame FA choices, and Lone Wolves, the SW don;t really have any *bad* units. Just that some units are stronger than others.


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

I think that Lone Wolves are good, but they suffer from being an Eilte, along with all the other fancy stuff.


----------



## sanoskae (Feb 9, 2009)

I think the lone wolves are an interesting concept, they look decent on paper but in practice I'm not sure of. The same can be said for anything in a new codex though. I think in a month or so we will start to see what the bread and butter is. That Blood Claw unit with a wolf priest and in a crusader seems awesome but expensive. 47 attacks with Preferred Enemy? Love It  Also awesome post Galahad! +1 rep.


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

On the Bolt-pistol-shot-versus-extra-CC-attack thing, remember that bolt pistol shots don't count towards combat resolution, but any kills form the bonus attacks do, which can be very important. You can also pick out Characters in melee, unlike with pistol shooting (e.g. You REALLY want to kill that Farseer in the Dire Avengers unit).

I'm not excusing their piss-poor performance-per-point, just thinking that pistols aren't *always* better than +1 Attack.


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Ah, but pistol shot AND +1 attack is even better, and you don't get it on Skyclaws of Swiftclaws without paying out the ass. Hence my gripe. Regular bloodclaws are alright since you can buy them a babysitter on the cheap.

I still say bloodclaws should be 13 or 14 instead of 15 though. They get more armor than marine scouts, but don't have near as many weapon options, scouts or infiltrate. Certainly not as good as Grey hunters. Ah well.

As for Lone Wolves...the elites thing is a big deal when you already have to burn at least one elites slot on wolfguard. And sure, they're fairly tough, but you lose KP if they *don't* die... And no JP, bike or Mount options.

So you've essentially got a relatively good assault model that has to slog his way up to the enemy and hope he doesn't get mowed down before he can earn his points back and then die. It's like a poor man's monstrous creature

A resounding 'meh'


----------



## sanoskae (Feb 9, 2009)

I think that the can't fire within 6" is also kind of neat. You check it at the beginning of the shooting phase, so that gives you a chance to make sure your in assault range. If you can still fire then you can run  A small but nifty thing.


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Why would you want to run though if you haven't got Fleet?
You can't assault after you run, so all that'll do is make it so they don't have to move as far to clobber you...I suppose you could use ot to backpedal, but chances are you'd still be in their assault range.


----------



## sanoskae (Feb 9, 2009)

yeah you're right, I don't know what I was thinking.


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

A recent post I made in Rules Discussion has brought up some interesting and awkward rules questions regarding the new codex.

My review focused mainly on the quality of the units and by those merits I think the SW is a good (but not necessarily overpowered) army. That said, as far as the quality of the writing and how the rules are worded (or not worded at all in some cases) is bad.

It's a good list in a disappointingly slipshod codex. I'm really hoping for a prompt FAQ release, because this thing is gonna need it. You can still make a perfectly fine and functional list with the rules as (sloppily) written, but there are a lot of issues that I feel GW needs to clear up


----------



## tu_shan82 (Mar 7, 2008)

Knowing GW they'll release a FAQ that addresses silly no-brainer questions and leaves the impotant questions that really need addressing unanswered.


----------



## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

I picked it up over the weekend so finally had a chance to review everything you put down and verify all those crazy rumours. I hate to say that every time a SM Codex comes out I end up using the same phrase; "Really? That was really neccessary?" The perfect example would be Calgar's AP2 Bolters. One example in the SW Codex is the Runic Weapons; a Force Weapon, a Psychic Hood and happens to wound Daemons on a 2+. 

Then of course you have the OathSlayers, the Monster Hunters and the Beast Slayer Saga. In addition to a few key other rules, these pretty much fill in the gaps of everything that was suppose to be slightly harder to kill. Coupled with their rediculously good Psychic powers, SW no have the capacity to easily deal with every possible army they face. 

Sure their HQ's might be on the expensive side; but none of them raise a question to me whether or not they are worth it. Especially considering their relatively cheap Troop choices. And of course, taking into consideration what each HQ/character is capable of. Point for Point, only the basic Ork boy is better in comparison. 

The only obvious downside to SW is their numbers, which may eventually even out the playing field, just as we saw it murder Ork opponents before everyone got a grip on them. However, many oh so many rules allow the SW to counter the numbers game. Take a look at Warrior Born and Chain lightning as perfect examples. 

On paper, the SW Dex might be the number 1 choice. Now a lot of people might come back and mention specific biulds of other armies, like Eldar Seer Council or Nob Bikers. But that's just it, other armies require specific biulds to be good or competative, SW do not. What irritates the s**t out of me, is that basic rules for SW are DESIGNED to deal with said specific biulds, rendering them *basic* to a standard SW army. 

My only hope is that the next dex, which *should* be Nids early next year, has some frighteningly good stuff in it comparible to what SW got. Or I s**t you not, this game will turn into SM Vs SM. And while the joke is not lost on me, I will more than likely either quitely leave this game for good, or play nothing but Homebrewed Alien dexes.


----------



## stooge92 (Mar 6, 2008)

i was really hoping the lone wolf was going to be an awesome mini. but after this summary... i would still seriously think about having one in a fluffy army in a casual battle with a friend. it would be epic to throw them into an impossible battle just to see what would happen


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

The lone wolf isn't terrible, I just don't care for it myself. Could be fun to exploit in Apocalypse...20 lone wolves maybe?


----------



## Underground Heretic (Aug 9, 2008)

Looking through the codex, it's not a bad I thought I would be and will apologize for all my wild ravings. I will even compliment the author on _not_ breaking the army. There are some options that could have made the army tough as nails to fight. For instance a Lone Wolf in power armor with a melta gun for the same price as a grey hunter or a Wolf Priest on thunderwolf, giving the thunderwolf cav unit he is with preferred enemy infantry or montrous creature or (jet)bike depending on the army they are facing.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I find it very strange that Wolf Lords/Wolf Guard Battle Leaders can't carry Frost Blades/Axes whilst wearing Terminator Armour yet their Wolf Guard can....can't quite get my head round why that particular decision was taken.


----------



## Firewolf (Jan 22, 2007)

>>Gal, I kinda agree on the lone wolves point. Being in the elite section makes them a bit of a waste, being lumped in with WG and Wolf Scouts, who are better than last time, imo. But, they are quite characterful. The last squad member looking for vengance for his pack, trying to get over the shame of surviving when his brothers died thing is kinda cool. Sky/swiftclaws on the other hand, I cant find any reason to take them this time round. Slightly cheaper, but still pretty guff. 
Also agree on the point that Bloodclaws are about 2 pts to much. They havent changed from last time, cept less pw/pf options, and they more expensive. Will only take a smallish unit, roughly 8 in number in my army, and take the better option of more grey hunters. i can handle the lack of heavy weapon in GH squads, as the wolves aint a codex chapter. 
>> Iron priests are lame again, also just an opinion, elites also, cant see a reason to take them, unless you want a Egil Ironwolf type army.

>> Also, your post is well delivered and the appropriate rep has been added. Top post mate.


----------



## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Galahad said:


> The lone wolf isn't terrible, I just don't care for it myself. Could be fun to exploit in Apocalypse...20 lone wolves maybe?


:laugh:Nonono!Bad Galahad! Bad, bad Galahad!:laugh:


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

It would take a long time to resolve your turn though ;-)


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I give up in fustration. Im still confused on the WG. There Elites and the FOC says 3 Elites. But the leaders for the packs are WG. Do they take up a Elite slot or are they just added to the Troop units as Champs/Sergents? And could I have a WG leading a pack of Blood Claws that contain Lukos? To keep them in line.


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Warlock in Training said:


> I give up in fustration. Im still confused on the WG. There Elites and the FOC says 3 Elites. But the leaders for the packs are WG. Do they take up a Elite slot or are they just added to the Troop units as Champs/Sergents?


The rules are that members of a Wolf Guard Pack may be broken off and assigned to lead other units.

So you can spend one elites slot to buy up to 10 wolf guard and provide leaders for most of your army that way, only spending the one slot. Any leftover WG can just form a unit.

So yes, WG take an elites slot, but you generally only need to spend one slot to get leaders for your units



> And could I have a WG leading a pack of Blood Claws that contain Lukos? To keep them in line.


You can, but Lukos has special rules that keep the squad's LD at 8 even if joined by an IC or WG.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

ouch..... at least they wont be randomly charging. Thanks.


----------



## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

One thing they could have fixed would have been making Lone Wolfs an elite choice that doesn't take up an elite slot much like Chaos Spawn, DE Warp Beasts, DC (not sure on these), etc... Or they could have allowed them to be taken as a squad but MUST be broken up into Lone Wolfs in battle rather than the leaders of wolf packs.


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Yeah, say 1-3 lone wolves per elites slot like with tau snper drone teams.


----------



## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Yes, that would have been so much better as there is so much choice with SW elites and yes they have a great use as you can get them killed and not worry about KP's in Annihialtion but your enemy may have to due to them being a large threat to small parts of your army such as that 5 man ranger squad sitting at the back that you don't want to waste a whole 10 man squads shooting at to find it did nothing.


----------



## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

I'm somewhat of a fan of a single lone wolf. If you happen to not use all your elite slots, 35pts will get you a Lone wolf with Mark of the Wolfen. That 35 model could take down a Wraithlord or murder any GEQ squad. Also not likely to get shot at.

I don't think they are an automatic choice, but they have their uses.


----------

