# eldar vs chaos help



## troybuckle (Nov 24, 2010)

First off I'm using my phone to write this so bare with me.

So, the last two games I played with my eldar against my buddy with his chaos I got totaly owned. As in the last game I got tabled on turn 4 as In15 To 0 Vp. 1500 points of my army destroyed and I managed to kill one model that's right one chaos feen. Granted he had turn one, rolled well, and I rolled poorly, but still.

I'm not one to complain, and I'm not a bad player I have won tornaments, hell I even roll well most games, but getting tabled the last two games was not fun. Especially the last game where I only killed one Model.

That being said one of the biggest problems I have is that I only have a limited amount of models to take and he can keep changing it up while still being able to tailor to me, which is sort of not cool in fun games.

Now I know my dex is at an automatic disadvantage, but still I would like some help with ideas and tactics and my list.

The models I have are
2 farseers
10 dire avengers
6 fire dragons
6 banShees
10 guardians
12 scorpions
3 walkers
2 wave serpents
Vyper
3 warlocks

He beats me by bringing long range weapons in the form of, obliteraters, 6 heavy bolsters, plasmas stuck everywhere, autocannons and even a defence line with quad gun to boot. Oh and throw in a hell drake and some sort of completely broken walker that can take 8 strength 8 shots, which can reroll aromor pen once a game, has mostly12 armour, regenerates hall point all for like 170 points. (Sorry but that's cheesy) his troops inclue high t units like nergal and ferns.

He just stands there and blast the crap out of me. Seeing as 6th has fucked assaults and outflank etc. I can't get close.

Anyway enough bitching lol. So our next game is at 1250 points and we are.going to go with a physer them list. I expect to see the same type of long rang fire power. So far I came up with the following list to bring.

Eldrad ulthran (thinking of taking telepathy powers) in a wave surpant with starcannon and shrunken cannon. Will have 6 dire avengers with bladestorm as body guards and fire power.

Farseer decked out with everything (gide and doom) includes 3 warlocks all with singing spears, conceal, distructor, enhance. These will join a unit of 6 fire dragons. In a wave surpant with starcannons and shrunken cannon.

3 walkers with starcannons and scatter lasers
10 guardians with starcannon. 

If I have first turn I plan to set up on the top of my line and move out and dump my troops.from the wave surpants and attach his troops with his psychics.
The walkers and guardians to hang back for long range fire power.

I am thinking that my high s and ap weapons will get through his power armor and high t units. Also the range of the starcannon should even the odds. 

If I have second turn, I was thinking of reserving all I can and hang everything back and usr range firepower and wait for him to.come to me.

Anyway ideas and thoughts would help a lot thanks


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

Well, right off, you can't put two units inside the same transport. So no Farseer and Warlocks riding with Fire Dragons. In this case, I would probably lose the Warlocks for upgrades elsewhere.

Next, its generally a good idea to keep the same type of weaponry across all the War Walkers. It makes it hurt less when you lose one and keeps things simple.

You might do well with a couple Lances in there for high AV vehicles and potential ID'ing of Obliterators. Using your range the Wave Serpents should be able to mitigate most of the damage coming at them. Lascannons are the biggest threat they have, and they won't do damage more than half the time. Plasma Cannons are Oblit's only other weapon that can scratch you that far away and those are even less likely to hurt you.


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## troybuckle (Nov 24, 2010)

Hmm, I thought that I could join my farseer with my drangons because he is a IC and according to the codex the warlocks can join the farseer and count as a "single hq" then that "single hq" could join with the dragons to form one unit which can be placed in the tank.

Am I interpreting this wrong? If so that would that mean only the farseer could join the dragons? 

Normally I wouldn't take warlocks but seeing as our theme is going to be psychics I have to keep them.

The bright lance is only s8 with one shot and the starcannon is s8 with 2 shots. I think obliteraters are t4 right? Is there any way that can be bumped up to 5 and what is there inv sv

Thanks for you input!!


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## DivineEdge (May 31, 2012)

Mark of Nurgle makes obliterators t5. Most people take it to avoid ID from meltas and the like. They have a 5+ invuln, and 4+ if they take mark of tzeentch - but this means bright lances, pulse lasers, and fusion guns can instakill them as they will be tough 4. EMLs will to but they are only ap3. 

Starcannons are only s6, not s8. And bright lances are lance. 

Once the warlocks join the farseer it is a squad. It means single HQ for the purpose of the force organization chart. 

Sounds like you should mech up to avoid the plasmas and bolters. Fusion guns (fire dragons) threaten everything when they get close. Rangers could supress some non-fearless units and snipe special/heavy weapons out of squads. Jetbikes will give you extremely mobile troops. 

With the models you have, you are at a disdvantage as you have almost no troops. Proxy some. Read rage's eldar tactica too.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

ahahah first time I've heard the forgefiend classified as broken! broken into pieces if you ask me...
you certainly suffer from : 
-a limited amount of models
-the poorest codex (with nids) out there now.

I'd suggest, due to you small mount of troops (and models) to proxy something and to lower your games to 1000 pts. this way you could be able to field a more "focused" list instead of just trowing in 500 random points. Plus, if you own another 500ish points of another army, you could use them as allyes. Maybe not so competitive, but you should be able to disrupt his "tayloring".
Then...I tell you to use psychological warfare. Lie to your friend. tell him you buyed a bunch of mech eldar in some crazy ebay auction. Let him taylor his list against, say, an horde of Dire Avengers mounted on transports....and then show up with your old list !


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Most people don't use a forgefiend because its so expensive for a massive model that's only av12. Sure it puts out a ton of shots but its also the first thing to die. I'd hardly classify it as cheese. 

From your available models you need more lances. Eldar are hurting right now yes, but you have superior mobility, use that to your advantage. 

Also don't forget about nightfight. It's in every game now and is a good defensive boost for squishy armies.


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## troybuckle (Nov 24, 2010)

Hmm, seems I need to take another hard look at my dex as it seems I have made a lot of mistakes here. Nids is my main army and eldar are my second and newest which I'm learning.

I have beaten him before with my superior mobility but he caught on and loaded up anti tank to shut.that down. Seeing as my wave surpant can only go 6 inches then dump troops I can get them in the fight now. 

I will replace all my starcannons with eldar missle launchers to give me s8 and save some points. Seeing as we are going for this physic them he may not use mark of nergal to save points. He is most likely going to sit behind the defense line anyway so low ap won't help me.

Ok now I will throw elrad in with the dragons and put them in the tank and run them right at something.

I guess the farseer and the 3 warlocks will have to footslog it, in behind my guardians.

Hmm I see another loss here. I will take another look at the list and post some changes later today.

Thanks for the input, keep it comming.

Also that walker is cheesy, what other unit can claim 8 s8 shots with re roll on armor. It's range can keep it back on the table enought to keep it safe for a while to. If a person with first turn uses that thing it will distroy your antitank which you have to combat it. 170points is cheep for that.

Hopefully I get the puppet master power and turn it back on himself.

One final thing, he was saying something along these lines:
The new faq says for example if a unit with bolsters and a lascannon is trying to shoot at a unit that is 24inches away from one of the bolter men, but the other bolsters are out of range, but if that lascannon is in the back of that unit it extends the range of the other bolsters as well so everything can shoot.

Also fuck my cell phone and atocorrect lol!!


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

I think he is referring to the wounds distance thing. The bolters still have to be in range to shoot but wounds cannot be dealt outside of the maximum range of the unit. The lascannon extends that range to possibly include more models should enough of the enemy die from your shots.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

_Bolters_ for God's sake B O L T E R S! 
Also, Nurgle

ok I got that out of my system. lol

Play smaller games and don't tell him what army you're bringing (will it be Bugs or Eldar?!). Sounds like he's tailoring to beat your weaknesses. Which is cool on an even field but with your lack of models it's kinda douchetastic.

I'd put EMLs on the Walkers and keep them in cover. Keep Eldrad near them and Guide/Fortune them. Let them drop the Forgefiend.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

On page 13 of the Rulebook, you'll find the answer to your question.
Plus, if you consider cheesy the forgefiend, i bet you've never played those days against Necrons or grey knights. seriously. the problem is not the model cheesyness, the problem is the list tayloring that your "friend" keeps doing. anybody could beat anyone, knowing exactly the list he will bring.


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## troybuckle (Nov 24, 2010)

Thanks guys, also sorry for the typos and shit you can thank me cell phone for that.

I'm not that familiar with 6th yet I only have about 6 games in since it came out lol

I think I will keep the warlock/farseer with the walkers for guide and fortune as suggest try to keep them alive longer.

I will post an updated list tonight. Then try to think of some trick I could use


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

A single forgefiend shouldn't be eliminating all your long ranged anti tank in 1 turn......because that means you only have 1 tank/unit that has long range at......

If its that much of a problem use more Los blocking terrain (something often neglected on tables). 

Also as mentioned dont tell him what you're bringing. He's playing to your weakness and trimming points base on the codex you're bringing that day.


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

As far as the bolter thing with lascannon, any bolter shooting needs to have range and LOS to at least 1 model in the unit it is shooting at. What he was talking about was wounds allocation being able to go out to the lascannon's range.

If you have 9 bolter doods who only have range to a single solitary model in the enemy unit, then they all get to shoot. During wound allocation these wounds can then spill over to the other members of that unit if another weapon had range (and LOS?) to the other models.


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## troybuckle (Nov 24, 2010)

So this is the new list and plan

Farseer (guide, doom, stones, runes of witnessing, runes of warding, singing spear)

Eldar Ulthran (powers from telepath)
4 Warlocks, 4 with destructor, 2 singing spears

7 dire avengers (exarch, extra shruiken catapult, bladestorm) 

2 wave surpants, twinlinked eml

10 guardians, eml

6 fire dragons

3 walkers (3 eml, 3 scatter laser)

As I said before the farseers and warlocks are all there because of our theme. (He won't be expecting 4 he only thinks I have one)

Elrad and the warlock will ride in a wave surpant - flat out right into his line. Template the crap of whatever is not in a rino 

Farseer will join the dragons and ride in the other tank, will target something weak.

Walkers to sit.way back in front of the.guardians for.cover and use range to pop transport/forgefeed
Guardians to sit way.back on an objective I place and.take pop shots with the eml.

Not sure what to do with the avengers beside out them on the front line in cover if possable and use as a distraction mostly.

If I have first turn set up my walkers on the front line, let him set up close to take his anti-armor shots, then use elrads ability to redeploy and move back out of his plasma and heavy bolter range and use my emls range.

If I go second into reserves the tanks go.

I will split the walker into 2 groups instead of one to have more targeting abilty. Even though it make the go easter.

Runes of warding on both farseers should help against his pp abilities. Even if one goes down.

P.s last game I had a lot of aa guns, 3 walkers, vyper with lance, wave surpant with starcannon, and one with shrukien cannon, guardian weapon platform with starcannon. This is how it went down, the forgefeed took out 3 walkers, his bolters and plasma stunded one tank, but both moved flat out into cover on his left flank so.they could shoot, then the vypers 1 shot missed, and the guardians weapon didn't do any damage, then text turn I lost 1 tank, vyper, and distroyed.the other tanks main weapon guardians were tied up in combat and the fire dragons got pick.off my heavy bolter fire and ran away lol. 

This game the forgefeed will not live.past my first turn. Lol.


Any ideas on a game plan with this list now?

The game after this one I will not tell him about New units.I plan to have ready lol,


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

I don't have much time right now but I have a ton of suggestions for you. If you want help with the Eldar try My Guide it will probably get you going until i can spare a few mins.

Edit: in case it isn't obvious you click the words "My Guide" to see the guide. It doesn't show up on my phone very well so just in case you have the same problem.


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## troybuckle (Nov 24, 2010)

I had a look at your write up, excellent work and info. A lot of what you wrote up I have had the same experience so far, still there was a lot of new info for me to consider. Only thing I didn't like was there was a little two much about depending on allies, but that being said it would be good for someone looking to add allies.

I am looking forward to your ideas on my situation.


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## troybuckle (Nov 24, 2010)

Finally, I’m on heresy with a computer and not my phone lol.
I have a few questions that I am unsure about, regarding how the rules work:
1.	If a unit has twin-linked weapons and is also under the influence of guide, does it re-roll to hit once, or can I do it twice? I’m thinking that I can only re-roll once? 

2.	Is there any way to move a WS more than 6” and then disembark? (I hate how this is worded in 6th. I don’t understand why a fist skimmer (with star engines) can move up to 36” but only 6” and disembark.) I think that I’m stuck with the 6” move situation right?

3.	When rolling on the Physic Power Table can I roll for all my powers and then choose which one I want to replace with the main power for that discipline, or do I have to roll them one at a time and choose to replace it on the spot. (i.e. I roll a 1, then I decided to switch it out for the main power, only to roll a 1 again?) I think this is how it works, but its kind of dumb seeing as it’s hard to get the PP you want as it is. 

4.	I cannot find in the BRB where it actually says you can’t mix codex PP with BRB PP, what page is this?


5.	If my enemy uses a PP to directly target a specific Model in my unit (I.E Faseer) can I use the “look out sir” rule to save him from the attack?

6.	If my DA get assaulted, and the unit did not bladestorm on their turn, can I choose to bladestorm as part of my overwatch?
Finally, any idea or rumors, when Eldar may see a new Codex? (Not that I think the current one is horrible, but I would love one of those sweet new style dexs and all the perks that come with it lol) 
Thanks for your input so far guys, it’s had been very helpful.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

You are right on 1 and 2. 3 is right that our have to switch as you roll. 4 is stated in the FAQ where it lists what powers you can take. 5 I am unsure on but I'd say probably. 6 you CAN blade storm on overwatch (per FAQ again).

Word is Eldar are up for a Q3/4 release. Most likely around Nov.


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## Chosen of Malal (Nov 5, 2012)

troybuckle said:


> 5. If my enemy uses a PP to directly target a specific Model in my unit (I.E Faseer) can I use the “look out sir” rule to save him from the attack?


I don't mean to come off as a dick, but I feel the rule isn't at all convoluted in the way that it reads. If your character is allocated a wound and there is a model within 6" you can make the roll. Being allocated a wound is what triggers the roll, not being targeted by a power, so no, you can't make the roll when he targets your character with a power.


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## troybuckle (Nov 24, 2010)

But I can if that target takes a wound?


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## Chosen of Malal (Nov 5, 2012)

If a wound is allocated to him...like the rule says.


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

Part of the Problem I see is in the units you are using, as a example the Fire Dragons are fine but how are they being used? If they are in the Serpents then you are either not shooting getting the dragons closer or you are bring a EML into 12 inch range of the enemy. In other words the tactics are very schizophrenic.

Your Dire Avengers are fine as they are, although they are only really good at killing basic Marines, keep them out of LOS and try not to expose them to enemy fire. You want to be able to use them as area denial or bring them as a counter when a large group shows up close.

The War Walkers really shouldn't have two separate weapons, given what you are fighting they prob need to have 2 EML apiece. Stick them in Cover, Fortune, and Guide (or Prescience) them. This way they can kill his Walkers and have a chance to shoot down his Helldrake.

The FIre Dragons can stay in a serpent but the serpent has to be bare bones, you can't give it stuff since you are basically sending it to die.

If you can get a Bastion or a Ageis Defense Line put the FIre Dragons on the AA gun so you can kill the Heldrake with Tank Hunters and Crack Shot.

Eldrad can go Telepathy but given what you are fighting Divination might be a bit better for the 4+ invul and Ignore Cover ability.

The Regular Farseer doesn't need Runes of Warding, Eldrad shouldn't die, so he needs to keep Fortune and keep it on the both of them. IF you get a Ageis Defense line put them with the Dragons and Fortune. This way if you GtG you get a 2+ cover save.

You prob should put the Warlocks on Bikes, you will get more mileage out of them.

What you really need are some D-Cannons and/or Night Spinners and Prisms. You don't have enough long range weapons that have some Oomph. Try playing a game where the two Serpents are Fire Prisms and see how it plays out.

Based on your replies you seem to not like Allies. I would recommend it to fill in some gaps. Not using them is like playing Mario Kart and not hitting the item boxes.

Given your opponent A unit of Broadsides and some Plasma Suits would work wonders. 

If you give me a points level I can make a list given what you have, you might wanna try proxying the Guardians as Harlequins and see how that works. If you give a unit of Harlies in cover Fortune they will never die.

Your main problem is the Helldrake, if you can kill that either with AA guns or Guided War Walkers your game will get much easier.


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## troybuckle (Nov 24, 2010)

Thanks a lot for you input its very good. 

Seeing as our game is a physic powers themed game (because he beat me so bad last 2 times that we wanted to try and make it a little more fun with some fluff) I need to take the farseers and warlock as well as try out the brb powers so that sort of limits some of the ideas you present with regards to fourtune and gide on a lot of my stuff. However, these will be considered in future games.

The reason I have eml on the ws is because if my walkers go down again, I have to high s weapons to take shots at his armor (fogefeed, hekdrake, rink). At with 2hp and 10 armor the might go down again first thing. 

I was thinking could put the normal farseer in a ws with the dragons, move 6 disembark 6 and then be in the 12 range to shoot hopefully first turn. If not move 12" shoot with tank and hope to live a round then high tail the tank out of range to pop shots and last turn contest. The eml will give me range and a s8 shot.

Also with elrad and the warlocks in the other ws, I was hoping to do the same sort of thing. However I expect to loose my tanks, but hopefully its on turn 2 or 3 so I can get a few eml shots in.

I think that I should take doom and fourtune on the normal farseer as to protect my tank.

I have read a lot and been told a lot to not mix weapons on my war walkers, but to me it seems like a good idea to have the sl and another weapon, because it gives me way more firepower. Could you expand on why this is not a good idea?

Our game is at 1250, the models I have at the moment are listed in my first post.
I will try to cut out 50 points to get a defense line to stick my da in to hopefully hold down an objective. And if my guardians sit on an objective I place 48" away maybe I can hold two.


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

troybuckle said:


> Thanks a lot for you input its very good.
> 
> Seeing as our game is a physic powers themed game (because he beat me so bad last 2 times that we wanted to try and make it a little more fun with some fluff) I need to take the farseers and warlock as well as try out the brb powers so that sort of limits some of the ideas you present with regards to fourtune and gide on a lot of my stuff. However, these will be considered in future games.
> 
> ...




Allow me to preface this post by saying the following

Life isn't fair, and neither is this fight

You are at a severe disadvantage in this fight for two main reasons, you are fighting a codex with a 7 year difference between them, and he has Flyers and you don't. Because of this and because you do not have any AA options you are going to have a very hard time fighting him on a even foothold. With that said let’s see what we can do.

Guardians - They offer nothing to this fight beside a heavy Weapon, if he did not have a 36' moving Heavy Flamer on his side (See Helldrake) then you could take these and place them in Cover far away and maybe do something, because of his Flamer they are a liability and should not be taken if you can help it. If you do take them take a EML and place them FAR away from the action. Hiding the whole squad except the guy shooting the EML, this hould let them live beyond 1 or 2 turns and allow you to take a backfield objective.

Dire Avengers - See above, they are no better than the Guardians and do not bring a Heavy Weapon. You also cannot let them wander the table since T3 and 4+ saves do not mix, also the Baleflamer on the Helldrake or the Plasma Cannons from the Oblits. This means they need to go in a tank. You also have two options, you can kit them up for Shooting with Bladestorm Etc Etc, or you can kit them up for CC. In this situation a mixture of both might be best. You can setup the Exarch with the Invul and Power weapon, make the power weapon a Power Axe, allowing you to have some AP 2 in the squad. You can still give him Bladestorm. This would allow you to push them up in a tank and disembark and unload. Then when they are charged the Exarch can still kill stuff in CC, even if it has a 2+ save. However, this is not the "best" way to use them, give what you are facing you want to play on the defensive. Rushing up to him will only lose you the models.

War Walkers - These units are what you are going to have to rely on to save you. These are the only things you have that can bring good heavy weapons and can bring enough of them to matter. As for mixing weapons you don't do this for a number of reasons, one of the first and most important ones is that they almost all have different range bands, which means some of the time you are not shooting everything you have at all times which is a waste of your time and points. The second reason is people mostly use them for anti-armor so if you bring a anti infantry weapon like a Cannon or Laser then you will find the majority if not all of them will bounce off the hull of what you are shooting. The best example of this is a Land Raider, if you shoot a Land Raider with a Scatter Laser you cannot hurt it. Shooting at a AV 12 model with your setup grants you 12 shots and BS 3, meaning only 6 should hit on average, and you would only get 1 Glance. The missiles would hit 1.5 times, and do .75 glances or Pens. Meaning the thing you shot is still alive. If you had 6 EML's you would hit with 3 on average and get 1.5 Glances or Pens, giving you a excellent chance to get a damage result that will either kill it or disable it. I should also mention the Dual EML's will be doing this from 48' away *(or 54 with a 6' move), this means you can safely stay away from everything that is trying to kill you, except the Oblits, but they can only Las-Cannon you once every other turn, whereas with your setup you are doing this from 36'. In addition with the EML's you can throw out 6 Small Pinning Blasts which will eat T3 infantry and put the hurt on T4. The Dual lasers are great for putting wounds on models but have limited effect vs AV 12+, and are only 36'. Remember you want to stay away, in this case the Lasers are not the best choice.

Eldrad - While normally he is great he might be to expensive to play at 1250 without some sort CC backup (no 4 Warlocks are not backup) he is limited in what he can do. In this case you need to ask yourself, do you REALLY need his redeployment and do you really need his 3rd power>? If the answer is no then run him like a regular Farseer to save the points.

Farseer - Running him up into the jaws of the enemy is not what you do with these guys, if you really want to do so you need a large powerful unit in order to keep them alive, Dire Avengers or Fire Dragons won't cut it. They are not a assault HQ, they support, they are a force multiplier, thus you need to have forces to multiply. This means, on average, you will be sitting back, casting 1-2 powers and moving on. The units you buff need to be able to deal the damage, so you have to pick correctly. As for the powers if you want to use the BRB powers take the Primas Power from the Divination Tree, it is the EXACT SAME THING, and it also applies to CC as well as being 12 inches in range. This allows you to Guide the War Walkers to try and bring down the Flyers. So buy a 20 point power and trade it in. You will still need Fortune however which is why I recommend letting Eldrad keep his Eldar Psy Powers and letting the Farseer grab as many BRB powers as you want. Remember you NEED fortune, no way around it.

Warlocks - Since you only have 4 you cannot use them as a assault unit or use them as counter charge, what you CAN do is use them as a surgical strike unit focusing on hit and run tactics. This means you need to place them on jetbikes, if you do not have the models just pretend they are and proxy. Place them on jetbikes, Give them singing spears and Destructor and move them from LOS blocking terrain to LOS blocking terrain preventing them from being shot or assaulted. When you close on a unit you want to kill, either a squad of marines or a vehicle, you leap out of cover, unload with 4 Heavy Flamers or 4 STR 9 Spears and destroy or maim your target, and then slip back behind LOS blocking terrain with your second move. If you do not have LOS blocking terrain near your enemy, you either whittle them down with ranged shooting then pounce or let them get closer. IF they are still alive at end game then you can contest objectives with them. This is all made easier if you have a Farseer on a jetbike to Fortune them and Guide for Twin Linked Flamers and Spears.

Wave Serpents - You really should not be throwing away your expensive tanks by getting them close to the enemy. Make them work for it, normally I would not recommend putting a EML on a serpent since it is so damn expensive but in this unfair fight you need some ranged power. This means putting the tanks behind cover and using them to remove the enemy armor and flyers (the twin linked helps vs flyers), once this is accomplished you can then move up to contest objectives or tank shock as needed. Don't forget you can also Ram the crap out of something if you need to. You would be MUCH better off proxying them as Fire Prisms, that way you can threaten his Oblits and other units hiding across the table. This also allows you to pierce that 3+ armor on the marines.

Fire Dragons - Due to the change in disembarking you typically will need to wait a turn once you arrive in a serpent allowing your enemy to destroy not only the tank but the fragile units that pop out. In this edition and vs what you are fighting I would recommend placing them in the serpent with a EML (if you use this tactic) and only getting out when that Flyer gets close to try and knock it out, or if some Oblits Deep Strike nearby. Otherwise place them behind a LOS blocking wall and hope the Baleflamer doesn’t eat you.

Vyper - This is a touch one, so very weak and open topped too. So we do the same thing as mentioned previously, a EML. Because the weapon is on a turret you can easy force a 3+ cover save allowing you to constantly fire. While you will only hit 50% of the time you at least have that chance, and also have the option of a Small Blast for the marines. No other Upgrades

Scorpions - These guys do not need a Serpent since they can Infiltrate, and you don't want to send one squad up against the army, this is why you will Outflank them. Allowing them to come in off the sides and hopefully hit a Havoc Squad or something, relieving the pressure off your main force. Give them the Fist so you can threaten even the oblits

Banshees - These girls are a liability same as with the guardians, at least in this matchup. Their Armor of 4+ will quickly get chewed by Bolters, heavy or not, and they do not have grenades to assault into cover. I would recommend proxying them as more Dragons or Scorpions for this game or better yet Warlocks.

So what have we learned, we do not want to get close to where the 36' heavy Bolters or Plasma Cannons can eat us, we certainly don't want to get within 24 for all those Bolt Guns and Plasma Guns and Hades Auto Cannons, meaning we want to play between 37+ where only his Las-cannons and Auto Cannons can reach us, so Str 9 and Str 7. If he leaves a unit of marines or Heavy Bolter havocs behind his lines ignore them, focus only on what advances. Then you use your fast vehicles to contest late game, since you do not own any Guardian jetbikes. We also need to be sneaky and hug cover as much as possible to mitigate those Str 9 and Str 7 shots, this is something the Eldar do well so do not worry.

For this matchup Units I wish you had

Dark Reapers
Support Weapon platforms
Night Spinners
Fire Prisms
Guardian jetbikes
Feugan The Burning Lance
Kahandras The Shadow hunter
Rangers
Warp Spiders


So taking all this into account here is what you need in order to achieve victory in a consistent fashion

Ageis Defense Line 85
Icarus Laser Cannon
Fire Dragons 112
Exarch, Dragons Breath Flamer, Tank hunters, Crackshot

Wave Serpent 120
EML

Wave Serpent 120
EML

War Walkers x3 210
EML, EML

Guardians x10 100
EML

Farseer 100 (Warlord, Roll on Strategic you want Stealth Ruins)
Fortune, Runes of Warding
Farseer 140 (Switch for BRB Divination) -You want the Primas Power and the 4+ invul
Spirit Stones, Mind War, Eldritch Storm, Doom

Dire Avengers x5 87
Exarch, Bladestorm

Warlocks x3 174
Bikes, Destructor, Singing Spears

1248

Dragons, Farseers both go in the Defense Line, the Dragon Exarch mans the Laser Cannon and brings down his Walker turn 1, No cover due to Crack Shot. When the Helldrake comes in you use the Intercept rule on the Cannon and shoot it out of the Sky, no cover save because of crack shot. With that done the two most dangerous models are gone. After that work on killing the Oblits. Deploy the Defense line against the table edge of your deployment zone as FAR AWAY as you can from everything else. The Farseer Fortunes the Dragon unit, if you get hit with many AP 4 or less attacks Go to Ground and get a 2+ cover save thanks to the Defense Line Special Rules.

If Possible you will fit the Guardians in the defense line as well, Pew Pew with the EML towards Armored Units, otherwise use the Small Blast and hit his Havocs until they are Pinned or Dead. Guardians cap your home objective

Walkers will PREFERABLY stay in the defense line or somewhere they get a 4+ cover, if you roll the 4+ invul power then it doesn't matter if they are in cover or not, use the Prescience power to make them re-roll their hits. If you got lucky and deployed the Dragons either out of LOS or so far he can't shoot you then Fortune the War Walkers, use them to either tank out any armor or SPAM blast markers on the enemy troops. You will kill many

Dire Avengers sit in a Serpent and try not to get killed, if some troops advance on you, disembark and Bladestorm, they will move towards a nearby objective when able on turns 4-6, try not advance until the Havocs are dead.

Warlocks will be your hunter kill unit, they will clean up whatever the Dragon Exarch and War Walkers leave alive, and go and roast any hiding marine, don't forget your second move to send them to safety. They will also try to contest or kill enemy troops. If the Oblits are rocking your world they can assault them but they wont live beyond 1-2 turns due to those power fists.

Wave Serpents sit back in cover (hopefully around 48' max range, remember you can premeasure) and pew pew at any models with Auto Cannons, with Blasts or Krak Shots (use blasts), first focus on killing enemy armor then move to infantry. If the enemy are holding a objective and the Warlocks are busy then they move and go Flat Out to contest a objective late game. Disembark the Avengers before you do this. Remember you don't have to cap ALL the objectives, just 1 more than the enemy.

Using the Above tactics you should be able to secure First Blood, and Line Breaker, depending on the enemy warlord and where he is you might be able to grab that too. Menaing you are ahead by 2 VP. Only aim at the things that threaten you on a turn by turn basis, once his Long Range fire power is down you can pick apart his army. It doesn't really matter if you go first or second, ideally to cap objectives you want to go second, otherwise you always want first so you can drop his Walker before it advances, the Hades Auto Cannon is only a 24' range but its a 30 with the move so killing it is a priority, the STR 8 doesn't matter since you are all T3, but the 8 shots do, meaning he can dakka down a squad quickly.


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## troybuckle (Nov 24, 2010)

First of wow thanks a lot this is good stuff + rep!

In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war... And getting pwned by newer dexs lol.

In all honestly I'm not expecting to win this game with my current models, but I know I can do better then killing one model and getting tabled that's embarrassing.

Your suggestions for this, and future, games is very good and I will defiantly use them. 

For this game I hate to proxy models because Im not a fan of doing it. I don't mind people doing it cause its a good way to test something, but I would rather not. I also don't want to do it in this game because he is the only player in town and I don't want to come off as a power gamer.

Still I didn't like to get my ass kicked that hard, it kind of takes the fun out it after turn two and you know your finished. Still last game I played to the end and almost took out the hell drake with a singing spear on last turn.

For this list I'm going to drop down to 5 da, And use thouse points to upgrade some stuff.

I have a question I need answer reguarding war walkers ans maybe the wave surpant.

In the codex it says that if you take 2 of the same weapons on the walkers they become twinlinked. So would that mean I only get one twinlinked eml shot and not two. I always assumed one, which is why I never take the same two weapons? 

I'm going to try and make a defense line for my eldar and a turret., might not be ready for this game, but it will for next.

P.s. in a box sitting on my to do shelf I have dark reapers, rangers, fire prism, falcon, and I'm currently painting more dire avengers more fire power is comming in the following months!!


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

No problem and Thanks, I enjoy Eldar players doing their best.

As for your question, double weapons on a "vehicle" do not become twin linked, that only applies to a Monstrous Creature (read Wraithlord), so double of anything on a War Walker, A Wave Serpent or a Vyper will not be TL unless it specifically says it is.

Also if you have Dark Reapers they make all of your marine problems go away. You can either point them at the target as normal (this kills the reapers) or you can give it a Tempest Launcher and remove squads without LOS and not giving them cover due to Crack Shot.

Really puts those marine players in their place!


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## troybuckle (Nov 24, 2010)

Thanks again. So that means my ws with there twinlinked eldar middle launchers have two shots instead of one? It says twinlinked in the dex but it also say launchers with an s as in two of them


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## Chosen of Malal (Nov 5, 2012)

From what I can remember it does not say putting two of the same weapon on a warwalker makes the weapon twin-linked. So, with two EML you get two shots, not twin-linked.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

Wave Serpents only have a single twin-linked EML. Despite having a plural name it remains a single piece of wargear. 

How do our guys set your terrain? Preset or random after after sides are determined. I ask as you may be able to squeeze in a few more heavy weapons if it is random as gun emplacements. Up to 3 per D3 per table section. I don't recommend this to be done often as our opponents could learn the same trick.


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

Could I get a update on how the second battle played out? I'm interested to know what happened.


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## troybuckle (Nov 24, 2010)

the game is scheduled for this weds, I will update how it went the following day


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## troybuckle (Nov 24, 2010)

f sorry for the long post – it’s basically a shitty battle report.

Another major loss for me lol. He won 13-2 all while tableing me on the top of turn 4. I am now 1 win and 4 losses against him (4 loses in a row). While this game wasn’t half as frustrating as the last two, it was still a solid beating from him. He is possibly the luckiest player I have ever faced.

Here is a breakdown (remember it was a physic themed list):

His List from what I remember:

Thousand sons - 10man (Master Level One physic in there) and HQ -Master Level 4 (forget his name I think it starts with an A) All in a Rhino with bolter and melta gun.

Thousand sons - 10man (Master Level One physic in there) another HQ Master Level 2 or 3 I can’t remember, all in a Rhino with bolter and melta gun.

Forgefend

3 oblits with nurgle.

I didn’t think this was two bad a list, seemed fair to match up against mine. (Actually, I thought my list was a little stronger, lol)

My List:

Elrad with 4 warlocks (all with destructor and singing spears) in a wave serpent with twin-linked EML.

Farseer ML-2, fourtune, guide –along with 6 fire dragons including an exarch in a wave serpent with twin-linked EML.

5 dire avengers with Exarch -Power axe/shimmer shield

10 guardians with EML

2 warwalkers all with EMLS

1 warwalker with EML

(Total of 9 EML with 48” range, some meltas, and sinnging spears! All I had to do was hang back and shoot-up his advance right? Wrong, lol)

Game Set up:

A 6x4 table was set up with: 3 large runes in the middle, a swamp in the upper left corner, forest in the upper right corner, tank traps in the lower right corner, and a crashed ship in the lower right corner.

Mission rolled was #4 (the one where the objectives are worth different points (between 4 & 1) also Fast attack can hold objectives (we had no Fast attack lol, fail) Most objectives ended up around the center and one by the crashed ship and one in the forest.

Next was warlord traits (He auto got some sort of infiltrate because of his HQ) I got something useless about falling back/furious charge

Now for Physic Powers (Epic Fail – I had to roll 8 times for 4 powers because I kept rolling the same ones, I ended up with Physic Screak (prime power), Dominate, Metal Fortitude, and Invisibility (only good one). Wow, if I had gotten puppet master, and hallucination it would have been epic) I lost this game because we rolled for a Vanguard Strike Deployment!

How can you lose because of this you say, well here is why! This set up draws an angled line from corner to corner across the table and each player must set up 12” away from this line in each corner. He won the roll to go first again, Shit, but we did prepare for this with range firepower. (Oh wait, in vanguard strike there is nowhere to go, hahaha)

He set up first and took the zone with the most cover. (2 runes, the forest & the crashed ship) I was left with one rune and the tank traps.) His forgefend and oblits went right in the middle as close as he could get to that line. Once Rhino held back near the forest the other waited to infiltrate.

My set up next. The only place I could put something out of range of the forgefend was right in the very, and I mean very, corner. There I fitted the 3 war walkers with the guardians behind them, everything hugging the edge. All remaining table space was in range of his forgefend. If the table got bumped my models would have fell lol. Dire avenger went in the rune and the two wave serpents hid behind it in cover. (Picture a 90 degree angle in the corner of the table with about 10” Sides. That’s how much room was out of range)

His other rhino infiltrated basically into my deployment zone.

Elrad used his power and I redeployed my wave serpent with the Seer Council to intercept his rhino.

Now, because I was forced in this angled corner set up - it was not possible for me to deploy, or even redeploy, to avoid fire from the forgefeed and/or get away from the infiltrating rhino with a melta. If this was long table edges, or short table edges, on a 6x4 I would have easily been able to get everything out of the way from both his infiltrating unit and the forgefend and his first turn would not have been as devastating again.

This left both my tanks in range of the forgefend and oblits.

Now, the objectives were turned over, the one with 4 was in the forest in his zone as far away as possible, another with 3 was also in his zone and I had one worth 1 in mine lol. (However this 13-2 loss only included one objective point, lol, they were not a factor)

Turn one:

His rhino in my zone moved forward 6” and everyone hoped out, the other rhino moved toward the 4 point objective in the forest. Them he blew up my tank with the seer council (but not before shaking it, so all the warlock with templates could not fire on my turn lol) This did take the forgefend and oblits though. Then he casted a total of 5 Physic Powers all on 3D6 and passed all 5, wow unleashed some bolter fire and killed all the warlocks and left Elrad with 1 wound remaining. His rhino then took a weapon off one walker. (Game Over)

I casted invisible on my remaining WS with the FD and Farseer (who also casted fourtune) and moved Flat out 30” toward the 4 point objective to cut off his other rhino. Now with invisibility + Jink + fourtune I had a 2+ cover save on this tank lol) The Dire Avengers moved into range of the unit in my zone and bladestormed. Shooting saw me take only two HP off the forgefend and killed 4 members of his attacking unit in my zone.

Turn 2

His rhino decided to give up on the four point objective and moved toward the center of the table to get away from my Wave Serpent. The other rhino closed in on the walkers and the oblits and forgefend moved into range. His unit in my zone closed in on the guardians. Shooting from the forgefeed took out a walker and took a weapon of another and the rhino with melta then blew up that walker at 6” hitting all 10 guardians and Elrad, and killed 2 guardians. Oblits wiped out the Dire Avenges, bolters took out Elrad. Finally, a weapon got taken off my one remaining walker.(oh yeah he passed another 3 physic test on 3D6 before killing Elrad) (Game Painfully Over) **Note: When shooting his oblits he fired what he called auto-cannons at my guardians which were 36” away and rolled 12 dice and got 7 wounds. I question whether 3 auto-cannons could fire that many shots, he checked and it tuned out that the range was only 24”(because they were assault cannons, I think) no big deal simple mistake. He said “sorry, if I had known that I would have fired at the dire avenges instead , can we just put the wounds on that unit?” Being the nice guy I am, lol, I said sure. (goodbye DA’s)

I moved my wave serpent 6” toward the middle after his Forgefend/oblits/other rhino. Casted guide and fourtune on it. Guardians moved into range of the unit in my zone. Walker moved into view of the forgefend. Shooting from the walkers bounced off, but the wave serpent finally took out the forgefend. Guardian proceeded to place 9 wounds on his 6 men in my zone (he made 9 armor saves) so I assaulted and did nothing , but lose 4 more guardians.

Turn 3

Unit in his other rhino jumped out, unit in my zone moved in on my walker, oblits turned to face my tank. Shooting took out my walker, he then punched through jink + Fortune to explode my wave serpent and kill 2 fire dragons inside. Bolter fire then cleaned up everything but one dragon and the farseer. (lol)

I moved in shot and assaulted his rhino with, my 2 minis lol, and destroyed it for my second VP!!

Turn 4

Tabled, he also unknowingly stood on the objective worth one point in my zone!

Summary:

He got: 9VP for killing my units, Line Breaker, Slay the Warload , First Blood and a 1pt objective.

I got: 1VP for killing the forgefend, 1VP for killing a rhino and I killed 4 guys (almost as bad as last game)

If this was not Vanguard strike, I would have been out of range for turn 1 & 2 because of the ability to have somewhere to move. Then I would have used my superior range to take out the forefend and oblits. Then it would have been a matter of cleaning up the units in the rhinos.** Note (If I had gotten puppet master I would have turned that forgefend on his oblits, before taking it out.)

Biggest Disappointment - 7 days of hardcore painting sessions to get the warlocks done it time, only to not use them once.

Pointless venting (if I haven’t done enough already,lol)

· Oh and in addition to all the bitching I already done about the Forgefend, it always has a 5+ save, is unaffected my stunned and shaken and can repair itself.

· 6 th has Nerfed assaulting (Infiltrate, outflank and transports can no longer get a unit into assault without standing there like an ass to take a round of shooting.)

· In 6 th Transports cannot efficiently move troops anymore, a wave serpent that can only move 6” and dumb troops is a joke? And 12” range is even more useless then before.

· I need to buy better units lol

The bright side: we agreed to a rematch with this exact same list the game after the next.

(I’m actually not that upset, it’s all in good fun, I will learn from this)

Our next game is on Tuesday at 750pts on a 4x4, I will post anther thread tomorrow for help an discussion on this lol.

Tanks for all the input and help on this guys, we will get him next time!


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Huh. That's some obscene luck on his part with powers—seeing as Ahriman and the 1kson Aspiring Sorcerers can't get spell familiars, so only the Sorc lord can reroll failed powers (by buying a spell familiar). On 3d6, the average roll is 10.5, so he should have been Perils-ing on more than half of those tests.


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## Chosen of Malal (Nov 5, 2012)

He had 11 man units in rhinos?


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## troybuckle (Nov 24, 2010)

I think it was 10, whatever it was it was legal he is a stickler for the rules and wouldnt try to cheat that's for sure, I just remember there were some normal thousand sons, a hq, and a master level 1 physker inveach rhino


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

I notice a distinct lack of Fire Dragons with Tank Hunters and Crack Shot and a Aegis defense Line.

Try it next time and at least drop his lead transport and the Walker.


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