# No Hope?



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Okay, based on the new Grey Knights codex, the Daemons codex, and the Tyranid codex, what hope does the Imperium possibly have? I mean, the tyranids are destroying the Imperium from the outside, and Chaos is destroying them from the inside. Is there truely no hope for the Imperium like the fluff says? 

First in the Tyranid codex, it says that the Imp. Guard will have to increase the draft by 500% to have a chance at defeating Leviathan. Which means that every civilian under Imperial rule will need to be drafted into the Imperial Navy. Even if they do defeat this Hive Fleet, a bigger and stronger fleet is still on its way. It seems as though the fluff writers have doomed the Imperium to the Tyranids. 

Now, the Imperium also faces seemingly inevitable demise from Chaos. In the new Grey Knights codex, it says that Justicar Thawn is part of a prophecy where is says "the Dark Gods will have their victory, and human civilization will fall." I understand that it makes him look all brave and everything, but that is well beyond the line of bravery, and into stupidity. 

It certainly seems like the writers have stuck the Imperium between a rock and a hard place. I find it rather funny that I care so much about a fictonal race based off of a table top game, but I mean come on. Nothing in any form of fiction should be 200% set to fail.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

And that's not all. According to the most recent rulebook the Golden Throne is failing and there's no way to fix it. So yah, the Imperium is pooched.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Don't forget that the most technologically advanced race with a hatred for all things living in 40k is still only coming out of hibernation, and there's a problem with the golden throne and they've lost the warranty. Because of this the astronomican is getting dimmer, and soon warp travel may be too dangerous to undertake. Also, the golden throne is the only thing keeping the breached web way portal under the Imperial Palace sealed. If it fails completely, Terra could be consumed by a massive demonic incursion.

So yeah, there doesn't seem to be much hope for the Imperium.

Or is there? It would appear there is a portable alternative to the astronomican in the care of the Blood Ravens, and most of the missing primarchs conveniently vowed to return when they are most needed before disappearing into the warp or webway, places that mess with space and time, making it not too implausible they could still be alive. 

The existence of the SW 13th company 10k years after entering the EoT, and now a frankly stupid piece of fluff about a mere GK being able to wander the warp unmolested, all give credence to the _possible,_ however improbable, return of the Primarchs.

So maybe things aren't quite as bad as they seem.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

yeah you've got constant clean up of Orks that needs to be done, and always the possibilty with them actually having enough unification to roll through systems like they're nothing (which is why Ghazghkull has a whole fleet hunting him down). Then you have eldar dark eldar and tau threats which are not big ones but they certainly dont help the situation.

Many players and fans have speculated that GW will eventually change the Imperium from being the ultimate empire in the galaxy to an empire that is truly laying on its death bed. As the eldar have told humanity time and time again, the Imperium will not rule the galaxy forever, their time will come. 

Now space marines and such would still be the forefront of GW marketing I'm sure, but they would likely make the chapters much more independent, less and less serving the ideals of the Imperium. Most of them would surely refuse to accept the loss of the Emperor completely and would still fight either for his name or his spirit.

The IG may change from being seen as innumerable to we actually have to be careful now and not just throw away men making them a bit more elite and other growing armies more horde like where they are currently MEQ. Like if chaos gets tons more followers from victories they might have tons more little guys in the armies like cultists or just chaos marines who are not nearly as skilled as their ancient brethren. 

But, as always GW makes it so there is no guarantee of anything, they are smart enough to keep their options open to change things according to the current tide of opinions when the time comes, or whichever product line is the cheapest for them to produce haha.

As Khorne's fist mentioned they are keeping their options open by saying that the Imperium might in fact be doomed but they also have enough good things going for them, or could have enough blind luck to keep them going strong so it could go either way.

If tyranids were running all over the galaxy and Necrons are appearing more and more all the time then eventually they'd be fighting each other A LOT more so everyone woulds till be keeping each other in check. This is 40k after all, and there is only war. :victory:


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## Harriticus (Nov 10, 2010)

Chaos at the very least is being contained, or at the very least the same as it has always been. Orks are just being Orks and will always be Orks, they won't destroy the Imperium themselves.

It's the Tyranis and Necrons that are the real problem.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Theres always hope, it's just a very slight hope. Was there no hope humanity as a whole would have turned to chaos already. There are also gaps in the problems facing the Imperium.

For example, they say the Emperors light is "failing" and the Astronomican's light grows dimmer, but why? The Emperor doesn't power the Astronomican, it was on during the Great Crusade when the Emperor was off leading the armies of mankind. They also say that the emperor "directs" the light but how did he direct the light when he was on crusade?

Then you have the Necrons. They went to sleep millions of years ago on tomb worlds. Now, think of how much our world has shifted in millions of years. How many tomb worlds could have been lost due to tectonic activity? How many stasis systems could have failed within that time and caused the Necrons to finally "die?" Theres an instance on one necron world where the necrons will only attack the major city at a specific time like clock work due to their higher functioning lords being destroyed.

Regardless I think the Imperium will fail. Not that humanity will be wiped out, but the Imperium won't last beyond m42. Humanity always has hope.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

There is always hope the the Imperium of Man. ---> The Terminus Decree. :spiteful:


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

well, I doubt GW is about to commit fluff suicide, it's not a very smart business move...

it will be interesting to see how GW "saves" the Imperium, I mean there's no way we're going to be stuck in the End Times forever...or is there : /

come on GW, show some originality for fucksakes and do some interesting, like a primarch coming back or something like that!


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Star_Child

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sensei

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Illuminati

and these guys though I wouldn't deem them as really being saviors

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ordo_Hydra

and a potential threat to Chaos from within?

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Malal (unrelated but its followers: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sons_of_Malice )


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

> There is always hope the the Imperium of Man. ---> The Terminus Decree.


that could be a... cookie for all we know...


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

Do not listen to this heretic propaganda, The IOM will be much harder to conquer than it seems and the only things likely to do it are the Tyrands or the Necrons.

First of all we must factor in the variables and what is likely to happen. The Eldar know they cannot stop the Tyranids, The IOM knows that they MIGHT be able to stop them if they open up a galaxy wide draft, and the orks are stupid and easily manipulated.

What I think would most likely happen is one of two things:

1. The IOM and eldar form a alliance because there is almost certain death if they do not join forces. The Eldar then do the normal trickery to get the, for the most part stupid, orks to start a massive waaagh against Nids and Necrons. They would almost certainly do it as they are easily manipulated and its even easier to do so if you promise them a bloodier fight that the galaxy has ever seen.

2. Very close to the first only the Eldar dont form a pact with the space marines and they manipulate the IOM along with the Orks.


Tau are too small to matter

The chaos gods would probably force their own armys to lose or join the fight(with the orks, eldar and iom on their side) If the IOM falls the chaos gods lose their way to gain massive amounts of power. No normal humans? nurgle cant make them sick and suffer. No normal humans? Huge battles stop happening and there is very little blood for the blood god. No more humans? Nothing living to feed slaneshes thirst for pleasure. No more humans? Tzeentch might be ok here but he cant do anything if 3 of his brethren are against him.

The Dark Eldar would likely join the fight on the IOM's side also. If their are no more souls to steal they will die.

However I could see the Necrons and Nids forming a alliance of sorts. The Nids to my knowledge just eat up the bio matter to get stronger where as the Necrons capture souls to feed to their gods. The nids just seem to eat everything but the Necron gods are smart and would likely send their troops in the wake of the swarm to gobble up the souls left behind.

The IOM and the Eldar have big aces in their sleeves, the more likey to work(though cant happen) is the eldar sacrifice themselves to awaken their super god(though I cant remember its name, though likely to happen it wont due to it requires a popular race to die which GW wont do) And the other Ace which is a two way possibility that is less likely to happen but almost certain to happen Is the Star Child theory/ The primarchs returning and figuring out how to resurrect the emperor.

The final variable that I can think of, though since im tired im sure im missing a few) is the Apex Twins. Their might is literally unmeasured, we dont know how strong they are but the entire galaxy is on the line and they would have to fight or die. Would they be strong enough to make a difference? I dont know, but its POSSIBLE that they could fight with the strength of 100,000,000 space marines, They single handedly mind raped a black ship so I would guess they are very strong.

Another scenario I think could happen is the Twins decide that they are the only way for the galaxy to live and 1. Sacrifice themselves to make a new emperor (assuming they are strong enough to do what the orig guys did to make the emperor) or 2 let the golden throne consume them and hope its enough to shock paddle the emperor onto his feet.

Another thing just came to mind. IIRC Mangnus the red was orig a loyalist, he could potentially shake off the daemon in him and have his cursed legion join the fight or even do as the twins could do and sacrifice themselves to resurrect/create a new emperor

Sure you could say that no one could shake off a daemon but your only grounds for that are no one has before. Magnus is a powerful psyker, if anyone can do it, GW would let it be him. (Also isnt alpha legion, loyalist wananbes?)


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## Bane_of_Kings (Oct 28, 2009)

Doelago said:


> There is always hope the the Imperium of Man. ---> The Terminus Decree. :spiteful:


Aye, or, if all goes from bad to worse...

*Cue Batman thememusic*

Mat Ward!


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

You are doomed. Accept it. :threaten: 

Nothing can save you now... 


The Hive Fleets approach from all corners of the void...

The Star borne and their deathless armies awake... 

The green tide will always wear on your shores... 

And the denizens of the Warp await to feast on your souls...


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

Serpion so long as there is hope, there is the Imperium of Man; we shall prevail...For The Emperor!


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

so long as there is hope, there is the Imperium of Man; we shall prevail...For The Emp- *stabbed by tyranid* ARGH!! *dies*


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

it's ok I had a melta bomb attached to me lol


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> ...all give credence to the _possible,_ however improbable, return of the Primarchs.
> 
> So maybe things aren't quite as bad as they seem.


Whilst that is true, I fail to see how the return of some of the loyalist Primarchs would really make any meaningful difference to the already mentioned threats.



Harriticus said:


> Chaos at the very least is being contained


I beg to differ.

Chaos is the sole reason the Imperium finds itself in the position it is in. It directly caused the Horus Heresy, incapacitated the Emperor, and doomed the Imperium to paranoia, barbarity and heresy. 

The mortal forces of Chaos themselves (in the 13th Black Crusade) have recently forced the largest mobilisation of Imperial forces in ten thousand years. This just shows the extent of the threat posed by mortal Chaos worshippers, not including the main threat posed by Chaos itself; its ability to corrupt.

Chaos cannot be contained, and in my view poses a much greater threat (not just to the Imperium) than the C'tan or Tyranids ever could. 



Wusword77 said:


> Theres always hope, it's just a very slight hope. Was there no hope humanity as a whole would have turned to chaos already. There are also gaps in the problems facing the Imperium.


Theres a difference between false hope and hope though.


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## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

On COTE's note about the loyalist primarchs returning not having much affect, according to the Fluff around Lion El'Johnson that Luther keeps saying, when Lion wakes up he will lead the imperium in a crusade that surpasses even the emperors great crusade.

As for the Tyranids and Necrons fighting, that is extremely unlikely unless they both attack the same world as Tyranids have ignored all of the necron worlds because they are lifeless tomb worlds.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Star_Child
> 
> http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sensei
> 
> ...


yeah and this is definitely some good info right here as well. I cant say I understand the ordo-hydra part though, at least just not from what that lexicanum page has.


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## Cowlicker16 (Dec 7, 2010)

All I can say is that the Imperium will fall, only thing that remains to be seen is when. As long as the astronomican is guiding the tyranids in and demons can always come back, no hhope for humans at all


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

As mentioned the imperium would eventually fall, but mankind would still be to exist most likley. they would become a secluded pocket while other races to the majority. A sort of reversal of roles. Demons tyranids and necrons would be killing each other all the time instead of Imperium and Orks duking it out. humanity would find a way to float around locations unknown and generally unsought for the the eldar and dark eldar.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

If the primarchs returned they might be able to think of a way to save the emperor.

As to the nids and necrons fighting together your looking at it wrong. You said the nids avoid the necrons. Im saying the necrons go to the nids. Necrons have the ability to travel from planet to planet(as shown by how close they got to mars they are effective at it too)

Nids go in first, necrons eat the souls and clean up.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Whilst that is true, I fail to see how the return of some of the loyalist Primarchs would really make any meaningful difference to the already mentioned threats.


If anything they'd at least be a rallying point for the Imperium. But more than likely they'd take charge and try to move the Imperium forward so it can try and combat all the threats to it. 

They all possess above genius intellects, so maybe they could come up with a way to fix the golden throne.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Whilst that is true, I fail to see how the return of some of the loyalist Primarchs would really make any meaningful difference to the already mentioned threats.


Depends on who writes it. Matt Ward would make it happen. :laugh: 

...

And then I would light myself on fire. No, I`m serious. :suicide: 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Chaos is the sole reason the Imperium finds itself in the position it is in. It directly caused the Horus Heresy, incapacitated the Emperor, and doomed the Imperium to paranoia, barbarity and heresy.
> 
> The mortal forces of Chaos themselves (in the 13th Black Crusade) have recently forced the largest mobilisation of Imperial forces in ten thousand years. This just shows the extent of the threat posed by mortal Chaos worshippers, not including the main threat posed by Chaos itself; its ability to corrupt.
> 
> Chaos cannot be contained, and in my view poses a much greater threat (not just to the Imperium) than the C'tan or Tyranids ever could.


Cannot be contained? I can think of several instances where the necrons have done just that. Not saying it`s absolute either way, but I think you`re making a big assumption here. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Theres a difference between false hope and hope though.


No, not really. Both are merely illusions, completely without meaning until success or failure is decided.



JelloSea said:


> If the primarchs returned they might be able to think of a way to save the emperor.
> 
> As to the nids and necrons fighting together your looking at it wrong. You said the nids avoid the necrons. Im saying the necrons go to the nids. Necrons have the ability to travel from planet to planet(as shown by how close they got to mars they are effective at it too)
> 
> Nids go in first, necrons eat the souls and clean up.


You`re looking at it wrong. Necrons nor c`tan do not feed on souls. They feed on life essence, the physical energy that animates a flesh form. Such as bioelectricity. 

The c`tan require a living being to feed from. They cannot simply clean up after a tyranid invasion, there would be nothing for them. 

Though I suppose technically they could feed on the essence of the tyranids... :scratchhead:


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## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

To Serpions point on how the c'tan feed, its no just energy from living things, its just energy in general as the C'tan do feed off the energy of stars aswell.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> If anything they'd at least be a rallying point for the Imperium. But more than likely they'd take charge and try to move the Imperium forward so it can try and combat all the threats to it.


Or just as likely be a cause for further civil strife. The Imperium has devolved into a body of paranoia, obsession, fear and hypocrisy. To such an extent that the return of these mythical Primarchs would be met with fear, rather than jubilation. Especially if they return with the intention of reforming the ten thousand year old institutions and seizing power for themselves.



Khorne's Fist said:


> They all possess above genius intellects, so maybe they could come up with a way to fix the golden throne.


Well they couldn't throughout the Scouring and subsequent time period prior to their disappearance, I see no reason why they would be able to now.



Serpion5 said:


> Cannot be contained? I can think of several instances where the necrons have done just that. Not saying it`s absolute either way, but I think you`re making a big assumption here.


Im talking about the nature of Chaos. Rather than rifts, which is what im assuming your referring to. 



revan4559 said:


> To Serpions point on how the c'tan feed, its no just energy from living things, its just energy in general as the C'tan do feed off the energy of stars aswell.


Yes, but they *much* prefer the energy of living entities.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

Well if a primarch was to return i suppose they could achieve a crusade equal to the success of even greater than the Macharian Crusade, led by the magnificent Lord Solar Macharius. Their presence would be very effective at rallying troops and maintaining courage and all primarch were really clever as well as exceeding in tactics (especially Lion'el). So if a primarch was to return and lead a new crusade i could see them holding back and destroying several tendrils of the Tyranid fleet or preventing the next black crusade or chaos attack from the near beginning.


But other characters such as Calgar have been able to turn the tide in significant battles and achieve victory (when he fought the tyranids for whole days and nights or what ever it was  ), so a primarch would also be very effective at the front line.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

revan4559 said:


> To Serpions point on how the c'tan feed, its no just energy from living things, its just energy in general as the C'tan do feed off the energy of stars aswell.


Aye that is true. Many a star hath quelled their thirst once upon a time. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Or just as likely be a cause for further civil strife. The Imperium has devolved into a body of paranoia, obsession, fear and hypocrisy. To such an extent that the return of these mythical Primarchs would be met with fear, rather than jubilation. Especially if they return with the intention of reforming the ten thousand year old institutions and seizing power for themselves.


Yes, I can`t imagine the High Lords being too happy with Lion `el Johnson rocking up at Terra and saying _Get out of my Boss chair._ I don`t imagine there would be a whole lot of trust on the Inquisition`s part either. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Well they couldn't throughout the Scouring and subsequent time period prior to their disappearance, I see no reason why they would be able to now.


Things were pretty fucked up then though, right? Don`t you think that in the current timeline... 

Oh, wait, you were right. :laugh: 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Im talking about the nature of Chaos. Rather than rifts, which is what im assuming your referring to.


Fair enough. 

And I hate to sound like a grammar nazi dick, but _You`re doing it wrong_, unless that`s deliberately ironic. :wink:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Ferrus Manus said:


> Well if a primarch was to return i suppose they could achieve a crusade equal to the success of even greater than the Macharian Crusade, led by the magnificent Lord Solar Macharius. Their presence would be very effective at rallying troops and maintaining courage and all primarch were really clever as well as exceeding in tactics (especially Lion'el). So if a primarch was to return and lead a new crusade i could see them holding back and destroying several tendrils of the Tyranid fleet or preventing the next black crusade or chaos attack from the near beginning.
> 
> 
> But other characters such as Calgar have been able to turn the tide in significant battles and achieve victory (when he fought the tyranids for whole days and nights or what ever it was  ), so a primarch would also be very effective at the front line.


Its not the individual ability or ingenuity of the Primarchs I doubt. Its the Imperium's (notably the High Lords and Inquisitions) would-be reaction to their return. As well as the political and religious situation they would be returning to.



Serpion5 said:


> And I hate to sound like a grammar nazi dick, but _You`re doing it wrong_, unless that`s deliberately ironic. :wink:


Nope, that was me being retarded. :biggrin:


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## Lord Mephiston (Sep 16, 2010)

I have always wondered, which universe is more doomed ? Warhammer Fantasy, or Warhammer 40k ?

I think Warhammer Fantasy's human nations have a better chance of survival against their enemies, simply because of their allies. They can count on each other, elves, Dwarves etc. when the shit hits the fan.

In WH40k, it's just the imperium against everything else. Chaos, Tyranids, Necrons, Orcs etc., every one of these factions a major threat to the Imperium's very existance just by themselves. With all these factions attacking the Imperium from different places on the galactic map, things don't look that good for the Imperium of man IMHO...


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## Cowlicker16 (Dec 7, 2010)

Can just imagine a Primarch showing up-
Russ stops by Terra and holds surprise meeting. Upon laying eyes on him all the Inquisitors declare him a demon and impose death sentence on him...no other Primarchs ever showed up again


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

JelloSea said:


> First of all we must factor in the variables and what is likely to happen. The Eldar know they cannot stop the Tyranids, The IOM knows that they MIGHT be able to stop them if they open up a galaxy wide draft, and the orks are stupid and easily manipulated.


But the Eldar realize that they can probably avoid the Tyranids and that the Imperium is stupid and easily manipulated.



> 1. The IOM and eldar form a alliance because there is almost certain death if they do not join forces. The Eldar then do the normal trickery to get the, for the most part stupid, orks to start a massive waaagh against Nids and Necrons. They would almost certainly do it as they are easily manipulated and its even easier to do so if you promise them a bloodier fight that the galaxy has ever seen.


Not gonna happen. 
1) The Imperium is xenophobic in the extreme and while individual commanders have worked alongside Eldar before a species wide deal is highly unlikely. 
2) The Eldar are not a united race and thus cannot all be trusted to hold to any deal struck. You can bet, for example, that Beil Tan will not halt any attacks on the Imerpium simply because Eldrad asks them to.
3) Orks are very difficult to negotiate with, because they're fricking savages. You can promise them a bigger fight but I bet a smart enough boss will see pretty easy "Alright boyz 'eres da plan. First we smashz da pinkies. Den we smashz da bugz."
4) The Orks are also not a unified race (and if they were would pose the greatest threat to the galaxy) so again you have to set this plan in motion with countless warbosses and cannot trust them to hold to it.



> 2. Very close to the first only the Eldar dont form a pact with the space marines and they manipulate the IOM along with the Orks.


Much more likely but still ultimately ineffective. The Imperium does not have the man-power to deal with all the threats facing it (a truely dire situation) so removing one minor threat doesn't do enough to alieviate the pressure.



> The chaos gods would probably force their own armys to lose or join the fight(with the orks, eldar and iom on their side) If the IOM falls the chaos gods lose their way to gain massive amounts of power.


Except that the Gods have far-reaching and confusing plans which means they're just as likely to help in some areas as they are to hurt in others. 



> The Dark Eldar would likely join the fight on the IOM's side also. If their are no more souls to steal they will die.


What do the DE care for the wars of lesser beings? They live in the now and the now says not to sacrifice themselves for the Mon-Keigh.



> However I could see the Necrons and Nids forming a alliance of sorts. The Nids to my knowledge just eat up the bio matter to get stronger where as the Necrons capture souls to feed to their gods. The nids just seem to eat everything but the Necron gods are smart and would likely send their troops in the wake of the swarm to gobble up the souls left behind.


As others have pointed out this isn't how the C'Tan feed. So either the C'Tan will decide to farm the Nids or they will be in direct conflict with each others interests.



> The IOM and the Eldar have big aces in their sleeves, the more likey to work(though cant happen) is the eldar sacrifice themselves to awaken their super god(though I cant remember its name, though likely to happen it wont due to it requires a popular race to die which GW wont do)


Yneade (can't recall how it's spelt) is a myth about a possible way to defeat Slaanesh. In no way is it expected to work on the Nids or the Necrons and by that point the Eldar don't care anyway. 



> And the other Ace which is a two way possibility that is less likely to happen but almost certain to happen Is the Star Child theory/ The primarchs returning and figuring out how to resurrect the emperor.


1) The Star Child theory is largely discredited in recent fluff. I'm not saying that it's not a possibility just that it's an extremely unlikely one. Besides which, the Star Child/Emperor isn't going to be that much help against the numerous threats that assail his empire. Without the Primarchs, their legions and a united humanity behind him he won't be able to achieve anything useful. Also bear in mind the schism the 'return' of the Emperor would cause in the Imperium. Many highly placed people do not believe in the Star Child theory or Thorism and have a vested interest in denying that the Emperor is returned, so I could easily see some of them declaring this 'false Emperor' a heretic and trying to kill him. Civil war is hardly the best way to defend yourselves from an external threat.
2) At most only 5 loyalist primarchs can return. This is a quarter of their original number and I would say the threats facing them are as great (if not greater) than they were during the Great Crusade. Without their legions (and none of those returning have an entire legion, two would be commanding smallish chapters) there is a definte limit to how much they can acheive. And again you have to bear in mind both the Imperiums reaction to them, and their reaction to the Imperium. Since they left it has become a bloated, corrupt and religious mess; the exact opposite of what they sought to create. 



> The final variable that I can think of, though since im tired im sure im missing a few) is the Apex Twins. Their might is literally unmeasured, we dont know how strong they are but the entire galaxy is on the line and they would have to fight or die. Would they be strong enough to make a difference? I dont know, but its POSSIBLE that they could fight with the strength of 100,000,000 space marines, They single handedly mind raped a black ship so I would guess they are very strong.
> 
> Another scenario I think could happen is the Twins decide that they are the only way for the galaxy to live and 1. Sacrifice themselves to make a new emperor (assuming they are strong enough to do what the orig guys did to make the emperor) or 2 let the golden throne consume them and hope its enough to shock paddle the emperor onto his feet.


The Twins have their own agenda and thus far it does not seem to be about the betterment of mankind. It's possible that could change, but I highly doubt we would see such altruistic actions from them. Not to mention the fact that the Shadow messes with psykers and the Necrons have shown some ability in this field as well.



> Another thing just came to mind. IIRC Mangnus the red was orig a loyalist, he could potentially shake off the daemon in him and have his cursed legion join the fight or even do as the twins could do and sacrifice themselves to resurrect/create a new emperor


The main problem with that is that Magnus isn't possessed. He is a Daemon-Primarch not a Daemon-Possessed Primarch (which I think only Fulgrim is) and thus is bound to his God and the Warp. Even if he wanted to (which I doubt) he would be unable to affect any kind of change of heart. 


In the end nothing's gonna happen because GW won't move the setting forward. They've advanced it as far as they can without factions having to start disappearing so now we're just gonna hover indefinetly on the edge of the End-Times.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Yes, but remember that even in WHF the different nations are not guaranteed of alliance, and there are cases of one side abandoning the other. 

Also considering the ever present threats of Chaos and Orks, the Lizardmen on their mission to reclaim the land, the TK doing much the same, and raids by Dark elves and pirates... 

I`d say Empire is just as screwed as Imperium. But that discussion belongs elsewhere, and I`ve contributed as much to it as I`m going to.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

There is no hope for the enemies of the imperium. All other races are expendable to GW, they don't sell as well as space marines. No imperium, no 40k.


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## Lord Mephiston (Sep 16, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> There is no hope for the enemies of the imperium. All other races are expendable to GW, they don't sell as well as space marines. No imperium, no 40k.


You hit the bullseye there, gen.ahab. The only way for the Imperium Of Man to be destroyed is if GW shuts down or goes bankrupt. Emperor forbid !!! :scare:

But after reading Daemon World, I think it would be interesting to see how a Chaos ruled- Imperium would be like. It will get a bit Chaotic ( pun intended ), but everything won't go INSANE & go poof like alot of people think, IMO...

Might be something like the Daedra from Elder Scrolls, or the gods in Robert E. Howards' Hyborian age ?

All is well, but under the watchful eye of the Chaos Gods...


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Not sure why everyone assumes the High Lords of Terra are currently loving their position of power in a Primarch-less/and soon to be Emperor-less universe and wouldn't relinquish their power to a Primarch back from the dead, a being most closely associated with the focal point of their continued existence aka the Emperor. 



MEQinc said:


> 1) The Star Child theory is largely discredited in recent fluff.


Link?



MEQinc said:


> I'm not saying that it's not a possibility just that it's an extremely unlikely one.


Why



MEQinc said:


> Besides which, the Star Child/Emperor isn't going to be that much help against the numerous threats that assail his empire.


Because? They have abilities quite similar to the of the Emperor, are numerous, and if combined possibly could revive him amongst other things.



MEQinc said:


> Without the Primarchs, their legions and a united humanity behind him he won't be able to achieve anything useful. Also bear in mind the schism the 'return' of the Emperor would cause in the Imperium.


Again, the idea that people would cry out in terror or assume the return of a Primarch/the Emperor himself to being a hoax or something akin to a Chaos joke is just.... mind boggling.

And who is to say the Primarch in question would change anything or everything in the current infrastructure of the Imperium? And even if he decided to do so, I don't think most people would be complaining given their current quality of life.

If Chaos could create an avatar of a missing Primarch that would be believed by all of humanity, I'm sure they would have done so long ago.

If you count the avatar of Horus in Prospero Burns, it's deception was revealed though it could be argued that it was intentional.



MEQinc said:


> Many highly placed people do not believe in the Star Child theory or Thorism and have a vested interest in denying that the Emperor is returned, so I could easily see some of them declaring this 'false Emperor' a heretic and trying to kill him. Civil war is hardly the best way to defend yourselves from an external threat.


The links I provided show that the Sensei are hunted because of their disobedience to any form of authority not because they don't want the Emperor to be reborn.



MEQinc said:


> At most only 5 loyalist primarchs can return. This is a quarter of their original number and I would say the threats facing them are as great (if not greater) than they were during the Great Crusade. Without their legions (and none of those returning have an entire legion, two would be commanding smallish chapters) there is a definte limit to how much they can acheive. And again you have to bear in mind both the Imperiums reaction to them, and their reaction to the Imperium. Since they left it has become a bloated, corrupt and religious mess; the exact opposite of what they sought to create.


Assuming the Primarchs gone missing/dormant are alive or will return, I don't think the Imperium would go about seeking to destroy them/declare them as agents of Chaos or that the Primarchs would assume that the Imperium they left behind would stay the same in a universe that lost it's Primarchs and it's Emperor.

I'm of the opinion that if a *single *Primarch were to return, his status, his mere presence alone would bolster the morale of the entire Imperium to levels not seen since the Great Crusade, thus meeting the 500% more efficient quota of beating the Tyranids.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

We don't need to fear Chaos anymore, the new GK codex is here!!!
:laugh:


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Not sure why everyone assumes the High Lords of Terra are currently loving their position of power in a Primarch-less/and soon to be Emperor-less universe and wouldn't relinquish their power to a Primarch back from the dead, a being most closely associated with the focal point of their continued existence aka the Emperor.


Because they have cushy(ish) jobs and great power and respect. No one wants to surrender authority, even if it's to a legimate ruler. Just look at the problems the romans had.



> Link?


It's right there in the link you provided and also in the 3rd Ed Rulebook. The Cult of the Star Child is beleived to be a Tzeentch cult. This makes any claims it makes about the nature (or even possibility) of the Emperors rebirth highly suspect at best. 



> Because? They have abilities quite similar to the of the Emperor, are numerous, and if combined possibly could revive him amongst other things.


1) The Star Child is a singular individual. 
2) The Emperor was awesome but he was still limited. After all, he almost got choked out by a warboss.
3) The Star Child is his (the Emperors) revival. 



> Again, the idea that people would cry out in terror or assume the return of a Primarch/the Emperor himself to being a hoax or something akin to a Chaos joke is just.... mind boggling.


I'm fairly certain it's happened before. Wasn't Sebastien Thor declared a heretic for beleiving himself to be the Emperor reborn? 



> And who is to say the Primarch in question would change anything or everything in the current infrastructure of the Imperium? And even if he decided to do so, I don't think most people would be complaining given their current quality of life.


1) It doesn't matter what he tries to change, his mere appearance will cause radical changes throughout the Imperium.
2) If a Primarch did deside to change things the people probably would be happy. But chances are the people who've gotten rich off the explotation of those people won't be happy. Being the son of God is great PR but if you piss off enough fat-cats you'll eventually find yourself on the wrong end of some "resupply failures" or some such. 
3) If a Primarch is busy trying to change the Imperium (which at least Corax and Vulkan would devote a fair deal of time to) then he's not busy fighting the numerous threats humanity faces and thus not doing his job.



> The links I provided show that the Sensei are hunted because of their disobedience to any form of authority not because they don't want the Emperor to be reborn.


They are hunted because they are heretics. Why are they heretics? Because they claim to be sons of the Emperor, a clear lie given the Emperors manifest godhood. No mere child could be sprung from loins so great as his and no mere woman could bear the seed of God. The fact that they are actively serving a Chaos cult doesn't help things either.



> Assuming the Primarchs gone missing/dormant are alive or will return, I don't think the Imperium would go about seeking to destroy them/declare them as agents of Chaos or that the Primarchs would assume that the Imperium they left behind would stay the same in a universe that lost it's Primarchs and it's Emperor.


"Hello, I am the second coming of Christ. Bow down before me and give me all your stuff." How well is that gonna fly with people who have lots of stuff and no desire to give it up? What can a Primarch do to show that they really are a Primarch and not simply a powerful daemon? What does the Imperium still remember of these heros? And what Primarch would've expected, anticipated or appreciated the increadible degredation of the Imperium?



> I'm of the opinion that if a *single *Primarch were to return, his status, his mere presence alone would bolster the morale of the entire Imperium to levels not seen since the Great Crusade, thus meeting the 500% more efficient quota of beating the Tyranids.


The potential return of a Primarch would cause mass religious uprisings, riots and a fracture (if not all out civil war) in the Imperium. Extreme difference while everone expects him to solve all their problems at once will turn to confusion when he fails to do so and anger when their now complacent (because they beleive their new commander will save them) armies are overrun. One man, even a man as great as a Primarch, can only do so much. But the Imperium does not expect a Primarch to be a man (even as great a man as a Primarch) but a God. The expectations will be great, far to great for any to achieve, and the Imperium will collapse in on itself with religious war.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Because they have cushy(ish) jobs and great power and respect. No one wants to surrender authority, even if it's to a legimate ruler. Just look at the problems the romans had.


You're comparing the real world to a make believe one where daemons and monsters run rampant. 

Applying real world analogies to WH40k as you did, then you could safely assume the High Lords of Terra, human and afraid of the dark, would happily give the reigns of control to more willing, able hands in such a horrible universe.



MEQinc said:


> It's right there in the link you provided and also in the 3rd Ed Rulebook. The Cult of the Star Child is beleived to be a Tzeentch cult. This makes any claims it makes about the nature (or even possibility) of the Emperors rebirth highly suspect at best.


_In 997.M41, Inquisitor Fortez reports that he and his colleagues Alexio and Credo determined the Temple of the Star Child on Levilnor IV consisted of unwitting pawns of Tzeentch, so they eliminated it. However, in the Inquisition War Trilogy the same Cult is eliminated by Jaq Draco and a "fellow Inquisitor". _




MEQinc said:


> 1) The Star Child is a singular individual.


And? One individual is keeping an entire empire somewhat safe at like 1% of his former self.



MEQinc said:


> 2) The Emperor was awesome but he was still limited. After all, he almost got choked out by a warboss.


Link?

And who is to say the Emperor wasn't toying with the Warboss or just sneezed and found a Warboss trying to strangle him the moment he shut his eyes? lol

The Emperor bested a Ctan,that has gorged on the life essence of trillions over countless eons, in combat but arguably one already weakened by the Eldar but neverthelss an extrodinary feat.

If you're going to say the Ctan are very weak to the Warp, it's true but so is any being when faced with a Psyker the equivalent of the Emperor.



MEQinc said:


> I'm fairly certain it's happened before. Wasn't Sebastien Thor declared a heretic for beleiving himself to be the Emperor reborn?


There is a world of difference between someone who claims that and the actual Emperor coming back to life. I'm sure even a blind person would be able to tell the difference.



MEQinc said:


> 1) It doesn't matter what he tries to change, his mere appearance will cause radical changes throughout the Imperium.


I mentioned the change bit. But if change was inevitable by the hands of the Primarch then logic would point to it being good or better.



MEQinc said:


> 2) If a Primarch did deside to change things the people probably would be happy. But chances are the people who've gotten rich off the explotation of those people won't be happy. Being the son of God is great PR but if you piss off enough fat-cats you'll eventually find yourself on the wrong end of some "resupply failures" or some such.


Said corrupt, fat, rich people would not be able to control their minions who see real, great change in a son of the Emperor. 

You make it sound like a Primarch is just some chump Ultramarine with super strength, incapable of rooting out the corruption of his father's empire or finding out who is against his reappearance.



MEQinc said:


> 3) If a Primarch is busy trying to change the Imperium (which at least Corax and Vulkan would devote a fair deal of time to) then he's not busy fighting the numerous threats humanity faces and thus not doing his job.


Guilliman says hi.



MEQinc said:


> They are hunted because they are heretics. Why are they heretics? Because they claim to be sons of the Emperor, a clear lie given the Emperors manifest godhood. No mere child could be sprung from loins so great as his and no mere woman could bear the seed of God. The fact that they are actively serving a Chaos cult doesn't help things either.


Are you serious? The Emperor has been alive for like more than ten thousand years. I think it's been noted that he had many children before he made his presence known to humanity.

Where are you getting this idea that the Emperor cannot have a child? :shok:



MEQinc said:


> "Hello, I am the second coming of Christ. Bow down before me and give me all your stuff." How well is that gonna fly with people who have lots of stuff and no desire to give it up? What can a Primarch do to show that they really are a Primarch and not simply a powerful daemon? What does the Imperium still remember of these heros? And what Primarch would've expected, anticipated or appreciated the increadible degredation of the Imperium?


What can a Daemon do to show that they really are a Daemon and not simply a powerful hypnotist?

But to really answer your question, what would make them believe? The same presence, and aura a Primarch had Pre-Heresy that made people weep or unconsciously bow down.

There are certain things you cannot imitate or declare as being fake.



MEQinc said:


> The potential return of a Primarch would cause mass religious uprisings, riots and a fracture (if not all out civil war) in the Imperium. Extreme difference while everone expects him to solve all their problems at once will turn to confusion when he fails to do so and anger when their now complacent (because they beleive their new commander will save them) armies are overrun. One man, even a man as great as a Primarch, can only do so much. But the Imperium does not expect a Primarch to be a man (even as great a man as a Primarch) but a God. The expectations will be great, far to great for any to achieve, and the Imperium will collapse in on itself with religious war.


All of this is based on nothing other than your opinion. The same could be said about what I wrote previously but I would think most people would agree that the return of a Primarch would result in nothing but good things.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> You're comparing the real world to a make believe one where daemons and monsters run rampant.


I am applying real world psychology (which is the only stuff we have actual evidence of) to a fictional universe yes. Can you explain to me how the existance of daemons fundamentally alters the human brain? 

_



In 997.M41, Inquisitor Fortez reports that he and his colleagues Alexio and Credo determined the Temple of the Star Child on Levilnor IV consisted of unwitting pawns of Tzeentch, so they eliminated it. However, in the Inquisition War Trilogy the same Cult is eliminated by Jaq Draco and a "fellow Inquisitor".

Click to expand...

_I'm sorry if I'm being thick but what exactly is this supposed to prove?



> And? One individual is keeping an entire empire somewhat safe at like 1% of his former self.


This was a response to your post. You claimed the Star Child was 'numerous' I was pointing out that that is incorrect.



> The Emperor bested a Ctan,that has gorged on the life essence of trillions over countless eons, in combat but arguably one already weakened by the Eldar but neverthelss an extrodinary feat.


The Emperor engaged in some manner a sleeping C'Tan. We don't know it was a direct fight and we do know that the C'Tan was in the middle of hibernation. Immediately after being awoken the Nightbringer is made to flee from a mere Ultramarine so the Emperors feat is perhaps not as extraordinary as you might think.



> There is a world of difference between someone who claims that and the actual Emperor coming back to life. I'm sure even a blind person would be able to tell the difference.


Is there any difference at all between a powerful psyker who claims to be the Emperor and one who actually is? How can you tell?



> I mentioned the change bit. But if change was inevitable by the hands of the Primarch then logic would point to it being good or better.


What logic (that's a genuine question by the way, thus far all you've done is say that it would)? 



> Said corrupt, fat, rich people would not be able to control their minions who see real, great change in a son of the Emperor.


Exactly. Anarchy reigns as the oppressed masses rise up to embrace a messianic saviour.



> You make it sound like a Primarch is just some chump Ultramarine with super strength, incapable of rooting out the corruption of his father's empire or finding out who is against his reappearance.


The Imperium is a *galaxy spanning* empire. One man cannot route out all of its corruption nor can one man stand against the number of enemies he could amass.



> Guilliman says hi.


Guillimans dead. 



> Are you serious? The Emperor has been alive for like more than ten thousand years. I think it's been noted that he had many children before he made his presence known to humanity.
> 
> Where are you getting this idea that the Emperor cannot have a child? :shok:


I was simply crafting a in-character response to the idea the God (as in GOD creator of all things and master of the universe) would have reguar(ish) children with normal women. 



> What can a Daemon do to show that they really are a Daemon and not simply a powerful hypnotist?


Possess you.



> But to really answer your question, what would make them believe? The same presence, and aura a Primarch had Pre-Heresy that made people weep or unconsciously bow down.


Any sufficently talented psyker can do this. Next?



> There are certain things you cannot imitate or declare as being fake.


So find one.



> All of this is based on nothing other than your opinion. The same could be said about what I wrote previously but I would think most people would agree that the return of a Primarch would result in nothing but good things.


This is based on my understanding of how humans deal with religion and how religion deals with change. So yes, my opinion. Your opinion seems to be based on little more than faith in the goodness of humanity which, while admirable, is shown to be patently false in 40k.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

As a hypothetical, could the imperium operate a scorched earth policy to rid the nids of biomass/life force? It would hurt us a lot yes but would it weaken the hive sufficiently if everytime the hive landed that world released life eater?


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Applying real world analogies to WH40k as you did, then you could safely assume the High Lords of Terra, human and afraid of the dark, would happily give the reigns of control to more willing, able hands in such a horrible universe.


Yeah, because the High Lords are facing dire threats every day. The High Lords are in positions of luxury and power, living the lives that the normal people of the Imperium only dream about. They face no direct threats to their person, most likely at any point in their lives. Why would you give up ruling a galaxy wide Empire out of fear?

Can't think of anyone who would give up control of a galaxy wide empire because they were scared. Hell I can't see how they would have gotten to that level if they were scared.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Wusword77 said:


> Yeah, because the High Lords are facing dire threats every day.












^ 

Doesn't include breached Webway.

Threat = coming soon not necessarily a Daemon materializing in your face every two seconds.



Wusword77 said:


> The High Lords are in positions of luxury and power, living the lives that the normal people of the Imperium only dream about.


Link.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Doesn't include breached Webway.
> 
> Threat = coming soon not necessarily a Daemon materializing in your face every two seconds.


Why don't you Link me something that states a high lord of Terra comes under direct attack every day as opposed to a picture of the forces that attack the Imperium as a whole.

With the Emperor on the Golden Throne the webway below Terra is shut and no deamons can enter, as evidenced by the fact the custodes no longer wear battle armor (which they might need if Deamons were rampaging through Terra every day).



> Link.


Are you asking me for a link? A link to specifically state that the heads of government bodies in a Empire spanning a million worlds are wealthy, powerful individuals? Well, there isn't one that spells it out that clearly. Though if you read McNeil's Ultramarines books, the planetary governor of Pavonis has plenty of wealth and power at her call. One would assume that the High Lords have considerably more power, being that they run the entire Imperium including Pavonis.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

The whole revival of the Emperor through which ever theory you wish to believe would still not help the Imperium in having a better chance of surviving against the growing threats. Why? Well as stated by others it could create a civil war or cause rule to become unstable due to the contradiction of different beliefs and opinions, and as far as i understand if the Emperor was revived he would still need to sit on his shitty golden throne all day long so as to keep demons from flooding Terra and to keep the Astronomican in working order (as i believe there is no other psyker powerful enough to seal the rift for a long enough time). So basically the Emperor would just sit there listening to how his empire crumbles and he would be the last person to witness the enemy as they pour through his massive gold gates.

But if the emperor was to be revived is guess they wouldnt need to keep feeding him pyskers, which could be used at the front line...


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Well they couldn't throughout the Scouring and subsequent time period prior to their disappearance, I see no reason why they would be able to now.


They had no need to fix it during the Scouring or there after. The fault has only come to light lately. At the time of the scouring the Golden Throne was still in it's plastic wrapping with the tags still on, so to speak. There was no reason to fix it, or to explore solutions for a "What if?" scenario. They seem to have been proved correct, as it has lasted 10,000 years before a serious fault came to light.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> They had no need to fix it during the Scouring or there after. The fault has only come to light lately. At the time of the scouring the Golden Throne was still in it's plastic wrapping with the tags still on, so to speak. There was no reason to fix it, or to explore solutions for a "What if?" scenario. They seem to have been proved correct, as it has lasted 10,000 years before a serious fault came to light.


But just fixing the Golden Throne (as in returning it to it's regular working self) doesn't acheive a heck of a lot. It maintains the status quo which doesn't look good for the Imperium. Not to mention that neither of the two more technically minded Primarchs (Perturabo and Ferrus) will be coming back to work on it. The Primarchs maybe super-intelligent but I don't think they're super intelligent in every single field. 



demonictalkin56 said:


> As a hypothetical, could the imperium operate a scorched earth policy to rid the nids of biomass/life force? It would hurt us a lot yes but would it weaken the hive sufficiently if everytime the hive landed that world released life eater?


This has already been used to pretty good effect by the Imperium. It's called the Kryptman Gambit, I think, and named after the Imperiums foremost expert on the Nids.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

I thought the gambit was leading the nids into an ork waaagh zone and letting them deal with each other (using a lictors pheromones as bait if i remember) and while it is holding them up whoever wins that is going to be one hell of a bar steward to kill?


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## Helsreach (Jun 2, 2010)

Sorry but look at the map up there. The red diamond on the far left next to the Ocularis Terribus. That's Mendregard, the Iron Warriors new Homeworld isn't it?


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

It's curious how people don't seem to think the primarchs coming home would do any good. I think in the unlikely event of one of them returning humanity will be greatly strengthened. 

Many of the primarchs left to undertake titanic quests in the name of mankind the fruits of which will be huge deal breakers albeit far fetched. Going on the loyalists charachter I don't believe they simply lost hope and wandered off. I think it's fairly logical to assume they went out looking for something and won't return until they find it, the alternative being death.

With this in mind if Russ comes back alive humanity will presumably gain the "tree of life", should the Khan re-emerge humanity will learn how to defeat hordes of Dark Eldar on their own turf and gain what would probably be a mastery of the web way and if Corax come back they would gain knowledge of how to survive and combat the warp.

There's also the possibility of a loyalist primarch returning someday with the remainder of humanity united under his banner (lets not forget that although the crusade was nearing conclusion there was still plenty of exploring and re-uniting to be done) or maybe a fully functioning STC allowing the imperium to construct pretty much anything it wants from anything. 

There seems to be a commonly held belief on this website that returning primarch would be rejected to which I would say if a primarch returned at the imperiums hour of need and when all seems lost with any one of the weapons that they set out to achieve no amount of imperial dogma and corruption is going to stop what's left of humanity from embracing them as saviours.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

demonictalkin56 said:


> As a hypothetical, could the imperium operate a scorched earth policy to rid the nids of biomass/life force? It would hurt us a lot yes but would it weaken the hive sufficiently if everytime the hive landed that world released life eater?


Like this?


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

Doelago, that makes me feel all warm and tingly lol


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Doelago said:


> Like this?
> 
> VIDEO


I was always really impressed that they used the same voice actor who did the Grey Knights from the first DoW for this. Kudos to relic.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

Wouldnt the IoM theoretically be able to shoot a Life eater missile at a tyranid hive fleet and kill it that way? IIRC it only feeds on living matter and does not require oxygen to function. It would eat the entire hive leaving only a highly flammable gas in its wake.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

JelloSea said:


> Wouldnt the IoM theoretically be able to shoot a Life eater missile at a tyranid hive fleet and kill it that way? IIRC it only feeds on living matter and does not require oxygen to function. It would eat the entire hive leaving only a highly flammable gas in its wake.


for logical and grim dark reasons no. It would be too easy of a solution for the Imperium to come up with.


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## Dogbeard (Apr 15, 2011)

Virus bombs would be effective against Tyranids, but probably not so much as ship-to-ship weapons. I suspect it would work well against the first hive ship, but thereafter the Tyranids would adapt and use expendable interceptors to detonate the virus bombs at a significant distance from the hive ships. A massive barrage of virus bombs would probably be required for even a few to get through, and the Tyranids would likely spread out their ships in response so as not to allow a single virus bomb to harm multiple hive ships.

Of course, hope will come for the Imperium in 007.M42 when the Hive Mind at last realizes that humans are fulls of transfats and eating them is bad for its cholesterol.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

JelloSea said:


> Wouldnt the IoM theoretically be able to shoot a Life eater missile at a tyranid hive fleet and kill it that way? IIRC it only feeds on living matter and does not require oxygen to function. It would eat the entire hive leaving only a highly flammable gas in its wake.


I would hope that a tyranid bioship would be heavily armoured against most attacks and would suspect (though I haven't actually seen any fluff to support this) that this armour would prove largely imprervious to the virus. Afterall chitin (or whatever that stuff is that makes nails, hair and scales) is generally dead already, especially the parts that are exposed, and so would not be particularily vulnerable to a virus (which requires cell-division/activity to reproduce). Now some parts of the ship (engines, navigation, weapons and such) might be more vulnerable to the virus but would require either skillful aiming or a saturation bombing to achieve any effect, which would be difficult and expensive to pull off against an entire fleet.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Considering all the trouble Kryptman went to, I don't think normal virus bombs would do the trick.

Though the 9th Vostroyan First Born were able to pull a nifty trick. They were besieged by a splinter fleet. They were running low on ammo and knew that the Tyranids needed to feed on them to survive the harsh winter on the planet they were on. So the Vostroyans opened the gates and allowed the Tyranids to rush in. At the last possible second they detonated their reserves of nuclear weapons and wiped out an estimated 85% of the swarm. I wonder why they don't use wider scale weapons of destruction more often. They fight enemies that often form a sea of bodies from their front lines to the horizon. I think a good fusion weapon or two ought to do the trick.


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

I think if a Primarch returned - he would return possibly to his own chapter, after a few tests and trials which he would pass easily, they and all successor chapters of his geneseed would bow before him and swear fealty.

He would then have to prove to the other loyalist chapters that he was genuine, if they all also accepted him he would be in a position similar to Horus ( although a loyal version ) he could easily arrive at Terra at the head of every space marine chapter in the imperium, he could then merely ask for their loyalty or their surrender.

Even if a battle ensued - he could merely withdraw till they realised the Imperium would grind to a standstill without the Imperial forces that would swear loyalty, and they would be better off surrendering - no fight would be needed.

Even if he turned up on Terra alone - the custodes would accept him if he were genuine, and there are not many on Terra who would oppose their will.

See its not hard.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Given what we know of the custodes, it is possible that one or more of them could vouch for the authenticity of a primarch. 

But even considering the boost to morale and resolve, there would only be so much a lone primarch could do at this point.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

hailene said:


> Considering all the trouble Kryptman went to, I don't think normal virus bombs would do the trick.
> 
> Though the 9th Vostroyan First Born were able to pull a nifty trick. They were besieged by a splinter fleet. They were running low on ammo and knew that the Tyranids needed to feed on them to survive the harsh winter on the planet they were on. So the Vostroyans opened the gates and allowed the Tyranids to rush in. At the last possible second they detonated their reserves of nuclear weapons and wiped out an estimated 85% of the swarm. I wonder why they don't use wider scale weapons of destruction more often. They fight enemies that often form a sea of bodies from their front lines to the horizon. I think a good fusion weapon or two ought to do the trick.


Because any given planet's cities/factories/natural resources are worth far more than the lives of the people defending it.


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## klaswullt (Feb 25, 2012)

I like no hope.


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