# rant on Curze vs. Dorn



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

why in the world do you guys keep using Curze's encounter with Dorn as an example of how badass Curze is

Curze sucker punched another primarch during a verbal confrontation and then mangled the unconscious victim while he lay on the ground in true psychopath fashion 

Have you all forgotten how the Lion knocked the shit out of Russ? If the Lion had decided to fu ck up Russ while he lay senseless on the ground, would that show how totally badass the Lion was? NO 

Dorn wasn't expecting Curze to try to rip his face off. Russ wasn't expecting Lion to suddenly attack him while he was having his laugh...The element of surprise is a huge advantage


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

About the Lion, Russ thing. Russ deserved it, so if I was him, I would not have been surprised to have Lion coming and beating the living crap out of you. 

But when the Emperor knocked out Russ... :shok:


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> The element of surprise is a huge advantage


Yeah just ask Alpharius and Corax who's legions made it (in different ways) their specialities.


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## Sir Whittaker (Jun 25, 2009)

We don't know that Curze suker puched Dorn, we all just assume that was the case. I can't recall anything that specifically states what happened the exact moment the two came to blows. 'The Dark King' I think is the closest we'll ever get to finding out what exactly happened (unless we get a NL HH novel), and that only states that Dorn came to Curze ranting about some insult to the Emperor and looking to chastise him for the NL conduct during their recent campaign. After that Curze was lost to his visions, and since he is the protagonist we have no more to go on. Who's to say that Dorn didn't grab Curze by the tunic, and threaten to kill Curze then and there so he didn't have to account for his methods ever again?

I'm playing devil's advocate here, and agree in all likelyhood Dorn was caught unaware by Curze, all I'm saying is that there's no evidence for your claim that Dorn was surprised (unless there is, in which case I'll just shut up).

Besides, we don't need Dorn vs Curze to show how badass the NL Primarch was, he just was. Fact.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Partly because Rogal Dorn is one of the greatest Primarchs in many respects. It would have been different had it been Khan, Vulkan, Ferrus Manus. But this was the Pretorian of Terra, who almost had his life taken away so easily. Granted it was not a fair encounter, but its still one of the earliest moments where a Primarch almost killed another.


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## Greymalkin (Aug 26, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> why in the world do you guys keep using Curze's encounter with Dorn as an example of how badass Curze is
> 
> Curze sucker punched another primarch during a verbal confrontation and then mangled the unconscious victim while he lay on the ground in true psychopath fashion
> 
> ...


 
Well said mate


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Sir Whittaker said:


> We don't know that Curze suker puched Dorn, we all just assume that was the case...
> Dorn came to Curze ranting about some insult to the Emperor and looking to chastise him for the NL conduct during their recent campaign. After that Curze was lost to his visions, and since he is the protagonist we have no more to go on. Who's to say that Dorn didn't grab Curze by the tunic, and threaten to kill Curze then and there so he didn't have to account for his methods ever again?


if there's official fluff somewhere that states Dorn and Curze went head to head in a fair fight, and Dorn simply got outclassed, I'll shut up too, no worries 

but I highly, highly doubt Dorn went to Curze with the intention of assassinating his brother primarch. that would be totally out of character for Dorn. even if he grabbed Curze by the tunic and threatened him with violence, that's posturing more than anything else. if you really want to kill someone, you strike without warning, hard and fast, like what Curze did to Dorn. 

for example, if I'm furious with my brother (and let's say we're both lethal fighters), and I barge into his room to rant and rave, I might try to brawl with him...if he tries to brawl with me, I'd definitely brawl back, but if he suddenly punches my throat while I'm in the middle of my rant, I'm probably going to end up like Dorn if he decides he wants to fu ck me up while I'm down. However that would by no means show how much of a better fighter my brother is compared to me. It would show he was more ruthless and most likely insane.


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## Sanguine Rain (Feb 12, 2010)

Exactly. Konrad is ruthless and insane, as well as not being a fair fighter, thats what makes him bad ass, in addition to actually taking a primarch by surprise and beating the shit out of him, which isn't easy, no matter the circumstances.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Sanguine Rain said:


> Exactly. Konrad is ruthless and insane, as well as not being a fair fighter, thats what makes him bad ass, in addition to actually taking a primarch by surprise and beating the shit out of him, which isn't easy, no matter the circumstances.


I'm in full agreement that Konrad was "bad ass" 
His mentality could be likened to that of a maximum security prison convict: never fight "fair". always fight to win, which usually means surprising your opponent, stabbing him in the back, and/or terror tactics
all very fitting since Curze grew up on a criminal planet

I disagree that it would not be easy for one primarch to surprise another primarch though...it's only hard to sucker punch someone if the intended victim has significantly faster reflexes than you


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## Sanguine Rain (Feb 12, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> I'm in full agreement that Konrad was "bad ass"
> His mentality could be likened to that of a maximum security prison convict: never fight "fair". always fight to win, which usually means surprising your opponent, stabbing him in the back, and/or terror tactics
> all very fitting since Curze grew up on a criminal planet
> 
> I disagree that it would not be easy for one primarch to surprise another primarch though...it's only hard to sucker punch someone if the intended victim has significantly faster reflexes than you


True, never considered the substantial differences in physicality between the two, and as Curze being very violent and animalistic, he probably would have better reflexes. BUT with that said, mentally, even if Dorn was in the middle of a rant, Rogal was a really stoic individual, so taking him by surprise would seem challenging, all in my opinion though.


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

na na na na na na na na KONRAD CURZE!

I honestly wouldn't dwell too much on this matter if I was any of you, none of us will ever reach a definitive verdict without official fluff stating exatly what happened.

Until you realise that Curze could easily smash Dorn to pieces with his "Vindicator"...

Kudos to anyone who get's the reference, and if anyone actually takes this joke as a serious statement, then you can go to hell.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Sanguine Rain said:


> as Curze being very violent and animalistic, he probably would have better reflexes. BUT with that said, mentally, even if Dorn was in the middle of a rant, Rogal was a really stoic individual, so taking him by surprise would seem challenging, all in my opinion though.


What I'm saying is that sucker punching a fellow primarch does not reflect combat prowess. Neither does it indicate that the attacking primarch is a quicker individual. You don't need a speed advantage to land a sudden blow on someone during a verbal confrontation. Surprising the victim is enough. 

If Curze surprised Dorn the way Lion surprised Russ, what happened between either pair pretty much tells us nothing about which primarchs were better fighters. 

EDIT: Of course, Curze may have been a better fighter, and surprising Dorn was just overkill


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## Sanguine Rain (Feb 12, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> What I'm saying is that sucker punching a fellow primarch does not reflect combat prowess. Neither does it indicate that the attacking primarch is a quicker individual. You don't need a speed advantage to land a sudden blow on someone during a verbal confrontation. Surprising the victim is enough.
> 
> If Curze surprised Dorn the way Lion surprised Russ, what happened between either pair pretty much tells us nothing about which primarchs were better fighters.
> 
> EDIT: Of course, Curze may have been a better fighter, and surprising Dorn was just overkill


Ok. I see what your saying, and i agree, the attack isn't a true show of martial prowess, i just people think that regardless of the circumstances, beating a primarch to a pulp with bares hands is cool.


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

There is no such thing as a fair fight when you are fighting for your life. Dorn got knocked the fuck out being somewhere and bitching about something he should not have. He could have called up Konrad on his comminique and said what he needed to say. When you show up at someones doorstep, uninvited, to chastise them ... you get knocked the fuck out.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

See the thing is Dorn should have expected it. He knew Kurze was unstable, he knew he was a murderous fiend. That`s why he was there after all, to chastise him for these traits. You don`t walk into a psycho`s room and yell at him without expecting some kind of violent response. 

The fact that Night Haunter could still get the drop on Dorn indicates either that Dorn was completely ignorant of his brother (which I think is unlikely) or that Kurze is just that fast. Regardless, he one-shotted a Primarch which is no mean feat and then proceeded to tear him a new one, with his bare hands.


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