# The Imperium needs more marines!?



## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

Dear Hetetics, I do not know if this has been covered before (probably) but I was thinking about spacemarine numbers, not chapter size but throughout the Imperium. There are approx 1000 chapters each with 1000 marines in the vast majority of them so that gives us 1000000 marines. Ok so we have established Oldman can do basic math, but during the Great Crusade we had 18 Legions generally with 100k astartes give or take with the exception of the Word Bearers and the Ultramarines whom were quite large, so in general terms at peak strenght the Imperium had just over 2000000 astartes. 

So post Heresy the present Imperium has 50% less marines that it should, do you think this is an oversight on the fluff writters or the ingrained fear of the Imperium that a huge amount of may revolt again, and thus keeping marine numbers down empowers the Lords of Terra even at the detriment of humanity, with the Imperium beset on all sides surely an extra million marines would be handy! 

Your thoughts please, Oldman xoxox


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

War, attrition, resources, enemy plotting and lost technology prevents the Imperium from doing so. They are just able to barely keep the status quo.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

As seen in Deliverance Lost, it is quite difficult to mass produce marines. Then as seen in Battle of the Fang, any plan to mass produce marines, ends in chaos intervention. There have been attempts to make more marines, they just have not worked out. The number of marines pre-heresy was so high only because the Emperor was there to create them.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

the chapters where reformed from legions due to fear of further revolts. Also, as malus pointed out tech loss and pure attrition could be a decisive factor. This said, the 1000k numeber is plausible "number wise" but fluff wise is just too small. I'd say that a reasonable number to justify any canon space marine involvemnt (not to mention the casualty rate) should be around the 5 millions, imo. The galaxy is damn large, you know...


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

I think the number of marines has always seemed small. The tech loss may or may not make sense. I recall there was mention somewhere that the marines mass produced for the great crusade may not have been as high quality add they should have. Some suspicion therefore falls on how that allows chaos to influence them, or not. And of course this was during the emperor's reign.

Also if my recollection is correct, the imperial guard didn't exist in the same way. The entire structure of the legions was very different, the legions also included the navy and maybe the human warriors.

The infrastructure wasn't there for the same military machine. The forge worlds didn't all exist. The interstellar recruiting structures weren't so developed.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I think the numbers are kept deliberately low for fear of them turning against the Imperium.

Look at the Astral Claws. They held back their geneseed tithes for, what, 150? 160 years? They blossom into a mini-legion of 4000+ marines. All the while doing their duty to protect the Imperium from the Maelstrom. Not only did he defend his fiefdom, but he also engaged in campaigns against nearby Xenos empires (which I can only assume would involve Astartes losses).

There's only a million Space Marines because the High Lords only want a million Space Marines.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

hailene said:


> I think the numbers are kept deliberately low for fear of them turning against the Imperium.


I doubt it. The pro's of having more Astartes outweighs the potential of them turning traitor by a billion to one.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Outside of the ability to biologically produce more Space Marines, I'd question the Imperiums economic ability to support a doubling of the Astartes chapters. Every Chapter of a thousand marines has, relatively, their own fleet of ships, their own manufactorum production for weapons/vehicles/servitors/ammo/etc. Then you run into the retainers and servitors adn all the materials they require to field the Chapter and it just balloons.

I get the Imperium is a big place with a lot of resources, but I think it would take a thousand years or more for the current Imperium to change their macro-production to double the number of Astartes chapters and all that implies.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I doubt it. The pro's of having more Astartes outweighs the potential of them turning traitor by a billion to one.


Imperium gets along, mostly, with the the Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard. The Space Marines are there only as a last resort when all else fails.

When the risk of your final weapon outweighs their benefit...
~~~~~~~

As another piece of evidence suggesting the Imperium could field more marines...

As a direct response to Hive Leviathan (which only really appeared at the END of 997.M41, so just barely a couple years beyond the "current" time), "dozens" of Space Marine Chapters have been founded.

That's an impressive amount! In just a couple years, they increased the number of Chapters 2.5-9%. That's nothing to scoff at.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

During the Heresy there was no way 100,000 Astartes per legion at all.

Thousand Sons had maybe 1,500 at most.

Emperors Children had roughly 5,000.

All the other Legions had around 25,000-80,000 Marines IIRC.

Word Bearers had 150,000. 

Ultramarines had 200,000, but it is rumored they are that large due to the other two Legions with missing Primarchs absorbing into the ultras. 

By my math....

1,636,500 SMs max during the Heresy. 

This is not using lower numbers of 20,000 for some legions, just the higher 80,000.

Not that big of a jump for Loyalist Marines alone in 40K.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Thousand Sons had maybe 1,500 at most.


What? No. Way off.

Thousand Sons had 10,000 in their Legion (per _Thousand Sons_) and keep in mind the book was written when the legions were "smaller" than nowadays.

Word Bearers had OVER 150,000. The Forgeworld book _Massacre_ states that they may have rivaled the Ultramarines in size. It also states that the WBs had well over 150,000. Somewhere between 200,000-300,000 is possible, though probably closer to 220.

Ultramarines also have 250,000.

The Emperor's Children had 110,000 as of Istvaan III.

Nightlords records are less clear and the Forgeworld book states their strength anywhere between 90,000 and 120,000.

World Eaters were 150,000 strong.

Death Guard had 95,000.

Blood Angels 120,000.

Iron Hands had 113,00

Raven Guard had 80,000.

Total number of Marines were probably closer to 2.3-2.5 million Pre-heresy.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

As others have said the galaxy is a large place, and there are hundreds upon thousands of Astartes Chapters that we have never heard about; especially on the fringes of Imperium controlled space. There may well be 5 million Astartes, more or less even. 

However I feel that the contributing factor is not necessarily the decline/loss in technology, nor the working of the Codex in the day-to-day operations of the Chapters. It is sufficiently human weakness, the lack of proper manpower(and glands) to create Astartes in the first place. How many Initiates die in the process of Recruitment and training? How many are lost while Implantation occurs, or withint he first few weaks of being an Astarte due to complications? It is not unheard of, but yet never really looked at by the writers.

That being said I think theyn need to really put an effort to ramping up Astarte production. Especially as the Nids and Necrons become more and more of a dangerous threat to humanities existence the Astartes will need to be more powerful, and have more a presence on the battlefield to counter-act these powerful foes.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

hailene said:


> What? No. Way off.
> 
> Thousand Sons had 10,000 in their Legion (per _Thousand Sons_) and keep in mind the book was written when the legions were "smaller" than nowadays.
> 
> ...


Wait what!? I remember in the novel it stated around 1500 and then less than 1000 by the end. 

Emperors Children were 10,000 at most in Fulgrim Novel, and thats why they seek perfection due to small numbers.

I will go through my novels again, but pretty sure many novels contradict what your putting out in numbers.


Edit. I see my mistake, I am looking at numbers of different time events. Example, Raven Gaurd had 80,000 but was down to 4,000-6,000 during the Heresy. Same for Thousand Sons that seemed to been 10,000 strong. Fulgrim Legion was very small initially as well, but during the Great Crusade it was bolstered alot before the Heresy. I was 50,000 off for WBs and Ultras as WBs had a smaller Legion Size before the Heresy.

My mistake. But the fact remains, depending on the time line, a Legion can be anywhere from 10,000 to 150,000 in size lol.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> My mistake. But the fact remains, depending on the time line, a Legion can be anywhere from 10,000 to 150,000 in size lol.


A single Legion was 10,000 (and this will probably be revised upwards once we get the Forge World book for the Thousand Sons). (Not disagreeing with you, since they are, up to this point, definitely 10,000, but I think saying a Legion is 10,000-150,000 is a bit misleading.)

The smallest outside of the Thousand Sons was 80,000. The "average" was probably closer to 120,000 with the outliers of the Word Bearers (200,000+, potentially considerably more) and the Ultramarines (some 250,000).

The World Eaters were described as "higher-mid" with 150,000 men.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

hailene said:


> Imperium gets along, mostly, with the the Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard. The Space Marines are there only as a last resort when all else fails.
> 
> When the risk of your final weapon outweighs their benefit...


That used to be the case during the Great Crusade but in 40K they are called upon 10x more due to the massive number of new threats compared to that bygone era.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

As two metres tall said, more astartes would mean higher production requirements as forgeworlds would struggle to uphold the necessary quota for every individual chapter. I imagine Astartes' armory, weapons, power armors and everything are much more expensive and harder to produce compared to galaxy wide standard weapons and so on. It would simply take a great toll on Imperium's expenses. 

Besides, Astartes in 40k are not what they used to be during the Great Crusade. Their power dropped, each individual astartes is said to be barely a shadow of horusy heresy era astartes. Simply put, present Imperium is ruled by many much more powerful organizations than the chapters, such as the Inquisition, Ministorum, Astra Militarum and so on. 

Where Imperium once was ruled by Emperor himself, Primarchs and the legions, today's imperium is ruled mostly by non-Astartes. I cannot imagine High Lords of Terra wasting resources on Astartes unless it's critically required, as provided by hailene's example. 

In short, Astartes today are still venerated as Primarch's sons and being closest to the Emperor, but they have lost the power and influence they once had. Thus, making investment in them, a highly risky and nonprofitable affair.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I've never really understood marine numbers. Yes, they're basically 700 pound, ageless killing machines with centuries of experience, in some cases, but theres only a million of them. On a galactic scale, a million would seem damn useless. So, yeah, more wouldn't hurt, but like everyone said, they're damn expensive. Also, you'd need a hell of a lot more to really see the kind of profits you would want. No, if the imperium wants to survive, they need more of EVERYTHING. They need more guard, more ships, more tanks, more of everything and they need to make it more efficiently. Shouldn't be that hard on the last point; when you need to say a prayer and lather holy oils over every bolt that goes into a titan, I can't imagine it speeds up the production process.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

Not really. Astartes are recruited from best warriors on their world. Such individuals would be obviously very rare, as only a handful of them manages to survive the brutal training regime and requirements every chapter upholds. 

Add the implants failure and more, some can't become Astartes simply because their body won't accept the implants. That's more wasted bodies. 

I imagine finding more STC would help greatly, as such technological constructs would be beneficial to all aspects of imperium. Albeit I assume they would destroy any High AI machines, since it's a tech-heresy now. 

I'd start by expanding border a little more to claim more resources and start outfiting guards with better equipment


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> That used to be the case during the Great Crusade but in 40K they are called upon 10x more due to the massive number of new threats compared to that bygone era.


That's why the High Lords have ramped up Space Marine Foundings recently. The Tyranid codex is a bit light on context, but the Imperium has founded dozens of Chapters to combat the Tyranids in the last 250 years (conservative) to 2 years, depending on how you read the quote.

They know things are a brewin' and they're ramping up the Chapters to match.



gen.ahab said:


> a million would seem damn useless


Sometimes throwing a 100 marines at a problem works out better than using 100 million guardsmen. You know, when precision is required over brute force.

Different tools for different jobs. You wouldn't waste 10,000 marines on a static 500 year war like Krieg's civil war.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

hailene said:


> That's why the High Lords have ramped up Space Marine Foundings recently. The Tyranid codex is a bit light on context, but the Imperium has founded dozens of Chapters to combat the Tyranids in the last 250 years (conservative) to 2 years, depending on how you read the quote.
> 
> They know things are a brewin' and they're ramping up the Chapters to match.


I think the OP was referring to new gene seed made entirely rather than dragged up from vaults deep within Terra for the purpose of forming new chapters.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

hailene said:


> Sometimes throwing a 100 marines at a problem works out better than using 100 million guardsmen. You know, when precision is required over brute force.
> 
> Different tools for different jobs. You wouldn't waste 10,000 marines on a static 500 year war like Krieg's civil war.


Yeah, they're great troops and perfect if you have a specific target that you really need to fuck up, but when you've got an entire galaxy that's basically a giant shit storm you need bodies. Lots and lots of bodies.


LordOftheNight said:


> Not really. Astartes are recruited from best warriors on their world. Such individuals would be obviously very rare, as only a handful of them manages to survive the brutal training regime and requirements every chapter upholds.
> 
> Add the implants failure and more, some can't become Astartes simply because their body won't accept the implants. That's more wasted bodies.
> 
> ...


Wat?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I think the OP was referring to new gene seed made entirely rather than dragged up from vaults deep within Terra for the purpose of forming new chapters.


I've lost where your postings is going. That doesn't seem to relate to the back and forth conversation we've had so far (not that I can decipher, anyway). Could you restate what point you're trying to make, please?


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

gen.ahab said:


> Yeah, they're great troops and perfect if you have a specific target that you really need to fuck up, but when you've got an entire galaxy that's basically a giant shit storm you need bodies. Lots and lots of bodies.
> 
> 
> Wat?


Where seems to be the problem?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The 'Actually, no' bit. I'm confused as to how what you said disagreed with what I said.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Call it an oversight, or call it a deliberate thematic choice.

At one point, the Legions were supposed to be 10,000-strong. The nine loyal Legions somehow amounted to a thousand Chapters with a manpower of 1,000,000 Space Marines by M41.

The fluff evolved, and the Legions became much larger. The average Legion numbered between 100,000-120,000 Space Marines. Despite this increase, the manpower of the Adeptus Astartes in M41 did not change.

This was not simply because the Imperium incorrectly thought the Legions numbered 10,000 Space Marines during the Great Crusade when in fact they numbered 100,000-120,000. The writing team themselves believed this, until it was decided the Legions would be larger.

Who knows why there are only 1,000,000 Space Marines. I don't buy the idea that this is because the process of making one HAS to be so incredibly difficult. The Ultramarines have been proving for ten millennia now that you don't need a murderous environment to get high-quality recruits. At the opposite side of the spectrum, several largely undeveloped/technologically backward Legion home worlds proved during the course of the Great Crusade that they could maintain the manpower of a Legion that - depending on the timeline of the hobby - was 10-120 times bigger than a normal Chapter.

Bottom line, I'm willing to accept that the Chapters make the process difficult on themselves because (A) it makes them feel elite and (B) the Imperium's cap on their manpower means they can afford to be much more selective. I don't buy the notion that they HAVE to find that "one in a million" twelve year-old that can successfully hunt dinosaurs, though.

Where genetic compatibility is concerned, I honestly think that's blown out of proportion to a degree. Caliban was able to crank out about four thousand Space Marines every two years - albeit under optimized circumstances. You have to remember, though, that Caliban sported a feudal society in a Death World environment. If genetic compatibility requirements were such that only a minority of even un-mutated humans could meet them, there's no way a planet with such a small population could maintain recruitment needs. More likely, genetic compatibility came down to prospective candidates simply not suffering from mutation.

That correlates with what we see in "Angels of Darkness": Boreas' recruiting trip consists of visiting a tribe - of no size worth mentioning - that trots out twenty teenagers. Boreas picks the top three of the crop and checks to make sure that they're compatible. Surprise-surprise, two out of three are. That third one? We don't even know that he wasn't compatible. He just happened to have second thoughts about joining after seeing Brother Nestor dig through the first candidate's intestines as part of the "examination process."


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Agreed.

The recruitment base is not the limiter on chapter size. Look at Baal. Scrawny techno-barbarians suffering from radiation poisoning can become Space Marines. the recruits are described as sallow, stunted, wretched things. The implantation process then turns them into Space Marines. 

Hell lets say only 1% of men can become Space Marines. Even if you have a recruitment base of 1 million on your harshest death world, an incredibly small number, that's still 10,000 aspirants. Even if its 0.1% that's 1,000. Population is not the issue.

It's a self imposed limitation from Imperial Law. the Codex decrees a chapter is 1000 battle brothers, the Imperial authorities want it that way. Law combined with ritual. the Chapters have now been recruiting in their current manner for 10,000 years. That's 10,000 years of ritual, custom, dogma and inertia. That's a time period longer than current human recorded history. 

As hailene pointed out look how fast the Astral Claws grew once they decided to.

As an aside it is a thematic choice.

One Million Space Marines; 1 Space Marine for every world in the Imperium, yet enough for the task at hand. It's the few stalwart defenders of humanity, the long regression of man and the desperate defence of the empire. 3 million or whatever doesn't have quite the same ring to it.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

LordOftheNight said:


> As two metres tall said, more astartes would mean higher production requirements as forgeworlds would struggle to uphold the necessary quota for every individual chapter.


Bullshit, just make more. The Imperium with all it's resources could easily create more Forge Worlds, and colonize further planets near the Rims. Additionally turn some of those backwater planets into the full-on production cetners they could be. Really it would not be that hard to ramp up production to keep the quota.



Phoebus said:


> Bottom line, I'm willing to accept that the Chapters make the process difficult on themselves because (A) it makes them feel elite and (B) the Imperium's cap on their manpower means they can afford to be much more selective. I don't buy the notion that they HAVE to find that "one in a million" twelve year-old that can successfully hunt dinosaurs, though.


I quite agree. Seems like a more practical approach.


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Wait what!? I remember in the novel it stated around 1500 and then less than 1000 by the end.
> 
> Emperors Children were 10,000 at most in Fulgrim Novel, and thats why they seek perfection due to small numbers.
> 
> ...


The Forge World book Extermination states that at the time of the Dropsite Massacre the Raven Guard were the smallest Legion, with 80.000 marines. The early Horus Heresy novels give much smaller legion numbers because they were written before the writers decided to boost the legions in average size from 10.000 to 100.000.

The Forge World books about the Heresy (Betrayal, Massacre and Extermination give the following numbers for 12 of the Legions just prior to the Heresy:

Sons of Horus: 130.000-170.000
World Eaters: 150.000
Emperor's Children: 110.000
Death Guard: 95.000
Iron Hands: 113.000
Raven Guard: 80.000
Salamanders: 89.000
Word Bearers: 140.000 at minimum
Night Lords: 90.000-120.000
Alpha Legion: 120.000-130.000
Iron Warriors: 150.000-180.000
Imperial Fists: 99.000


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Karthak said:


> The Forge World book Extermination states that at the time of the Dropsite Massacre the Raven Guard were the smallest Legion, with 80.000 marines. The early Horus Heresy novels give much smaller legion numbers because they were written before the writers decided to boost the legions in average size from 10.000 to 100.000.
> 
> The Forge World books about the Heresy (Betrayal, Massacre and Extermination give the following numbers for 12 of the Legions just prior to the Heresy:
> 
> ...


Interesting idea, sounds most likely.

One thing I noticed though, all the Loyalist legions were outnumbered by the Traitors lol.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> One thing I noticed though, all the Loyalist legions were outnumbered by the Traitors lol.


Makes sense since they had time to prepare for the Heresy. Time to bolster their Legions while reducing causalities (which in turn increases their strengths).

Horus probably sent the Loyalist Legions into the most brutal of warzones, too, to reduce their strengths.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> One thing I noticed though, all the Loyalist legions were outnumbered by the Traitors


True, the traitors did initially outnumber the loyalists (for the most part.)

Until you take into account their losses during Istvaan III, and Istvaan V, the Thramas crusade, the Shadow Crusade, the Battle of Phall, the Alpha Legion stalling the Space Wolves, and probably a hand few of other major incursions during the Age of Darkness.

Though about half of the loyalist legions were mauled leading up to the siege of Terra, the traitors were no less bloodied by it. And in some cases, they might have taken heavier losses at times.


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Interesting idea, sounds most likely.
> 
> One thing I noticed though, all the Loyalist legions were outnumbered by the Traitors lol.


We've gotten the numbers of 8 of the traitor legions, and only 4 of the loyalist ones, and the remaining loyalist legions include, among others, the Ultramarines who were the largest legion period.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Karthak said:


> the Ultramarines who were the largest legion period.


Not quite period. The numbers of the Word Bearers are currently unknown. A Forge World book says that some sources state they might rival the Ultramarines in size.


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## Demon of Humanity (Aug 19, 2013)

what it needs is better equipped imperial guard to honest. as in an stc with this http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb...ages/d/d9/Section_8_Earth_by_Baldasseroni.jpg


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## COMPNOR (Apr 21, 2010)

Demon of Humanity said:


> what it needs is better equipped imperial guard to honest. as in an stc with this http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb...ages/d/d9/Section_8_Earth_by_Baldasseroni.jpg


That would require better trained Imperial Guard, which defeats the whole purpose of the IG.


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## Demon of Humanity (Aug 19, 2013)

COMPNOR said:


> That would require better trained Imperial Guard, which defeats the whole purpose of the IG.


They kinda need it. Since the IG is the main warforce they need everything they can get meatshielding won't work for long


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## COMPNOR (Apr 21, 2010)

Demon of Humanity said:


> They kinda need it. Since the IG is the main warforce they need everything they can get meatshielding won't work for long


Seems to have worked for ~10,000 years.

Don't get me wrong, I somewhat agree, but that goes back to my original point of needing better training. I can see elite units getting the cool kit, but when you rove around the stars, scooping up thousands and throwing a rifle in their hands, fancy power armor isn't going to make a hell of a difference.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Demon of Humanity said:


> They kinda need it. Since the IG is the main warforce they need everything they can get meatshielding won't work for long


You don't realize how terribly the man-power to materiel ratio is slanted in the Imperium. Even the "common" stuff, like Leman Russ tanks can see centuries of service before breaking down.

Think of the time span that encompasses. A Russ that has seen 250 years of service today would pre-date the United States Revolutionary War!

And then the BIG things. Like terminator armor, Baneblades, titans, and battleships. Those things can predate the Imperium. 10,000 years. More than our total current recorded history.



COMPNOR said:


> That would require better trained Imperial Guard, which defeats the whole purpose of the IG.


People always underestimate the Guard. The Guard is literally the finest trained and equipped soldiers of a planet. They're the cream of the crop.


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## Demon of Humanity (Aug 19, 2013)

Oh i don't underestimate the guard with competent commander and decent training they can do wonders. Still thats not the case for many regiments.

as for leman russ and other techs lasting centuries well that says a lot not flashy but built to fucking last.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Demon of Humanity said:


> as for leman russ and other techs lasting centuries well that says a lot not flashy but built to fucking last.


Er, sorry. I made the last post sorta half awake. I forgot to make my point, haha.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make yesterday is that to the Imperium, the tools of war is vastly more important than the people. It's very easy to replace the men. The Imperium has incredible amounts of man power to draw upon. It's ability to manufacture new weapons is, relatively, limited.

The Imperial Guard isn't perfect, but it does its best to utilize its abundant resource (man power) while trying to get the most out of its limited resource (materiel).


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## Demon of Humanity (Aug 19, 2013)

hailene said:


> Er, sorry. I made the last post sorta half awake. I forgot to make my point, haha.
> 
> Anyway, the point I was trying to make yesterday is that to the Imperium, the tools of war is vastly more important than the people. It's very easy to replace the men. The Imperium has incredible amounts of man power to draw upon. It's ability to manufacture new weapons is, relatively, limited.


Yeah i know soviet era way of thinking. regardless this has limits since tyranids among others have more bodies a lot more bodies than imperium and they use your bodies to make more of there bodies. something the imperium can't do that with its enemies.

New weapons and tactics will be needed and soon. a weapon is powerful but its paper weight with no one to use it.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Demon of Humanity said:


> New weapons and tactics will be needed and soon. a weapon is powerful but its paper weight with no one to use it.


And soon?

While the turn of the millenium is vetted as the end times for the Imperium its certainly not going to happen overnight. The Imperium has largely been surviving as it has for ten thousand years, and thats despite everything that has happened (and remember that in that time the Imperium has made some gains to offset some of their losses.)

Also, all things considered the Imperial Guard isn't really trained that badly. By and large they are equipped with gear and weapons that are extremely durable and reliant, and in some cases do not require a lot of training before being able to use effectively. Keep in mind that there are thousands upon thousands of worlds in the Imperium which contribute soldiers, all with different kinds of training. Some might be poorly trained or led by less than competent leaders but that is not all of them.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Demon of Humanity said:


> regardless this has limits since tyranids among others have more bodies a lot more bodies than imperium and they use your bodies to make more of there bodies.


How does this change the equation for the Imperium's war machine?

It has bodies. Despite its best intentions, its ability to manufacture advanced weapons is limited.

So the Tyranids may be able to create more soldiers than the Imperium. All right. So how does this change the Imperium's materiel shortage?

If anything needs to be changed, I figure it's the Mechancius's approach to technology. Toss out the machine spirit stuff and have them learn the scientific method, I think the Imperium would be in business.


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## Demon of Humanity (Aug 19, 2013)

hailene said:


> How does this change the equation for the Imperium's war machine?
> 
> It has bodies. Despite its best intentions, its ability to manufacture advanced weapons is limited.
> 
> ...


yeah but the iron men crap scared the piss out of everyone and scarred humanity for life. using scientific method would work since some of the stuff the mechanicum have was made bia scientfic method like that insanely powerful ship that one shotted an eldar cruiser in a gravtational disturbance with pixel perfect laser accuracy. With chrono canons


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Wait a second.

It is a stated fact that the Imperium has lost the capability to produce certain engines, certain weapons, and even certain vehicles and starships. That is a given.

And yes, it is also a stated fact that the Adeptus Mechanicus makes it so that it's a very long and difficult process for new designs, etc., to be approved. See, for instance, the Lucius-pattern Baneblades.

That having been said, I'm pretty sure that the Imperium isn't unable to produce the overwhelming majority of the war materiel it needs. Its manufacturing/industrial base has ensured that a military force responsible for the protection of roughly a million planets has, by and large, been adequately equipped for ten millennia. We're not talking about a force barely able to march to war or lacking even guns in necessary quantities, like the Czarist forces of World War One, either. We're talking about a largely mechanized force that almost always deploys as a "combined arms" army, with artillery, armor, etc. A force that always arrives by way of interstellar transport.

The limitation of the Imperial Guard never seems to have been the Imperium's unwillingness or inability to outfit it with tanks, artillery, gunships, or what have you. Its only two real hindrances have been:

1. The Warp, which wreaks havoc with the modes of transportation and communication that the Imperium fundamentally relies on... since it also happens to be Hell, and is the stronghold/essence of the very powers that want to see the Imperium destroyed.

2. The fact that the dystopian existence that Man exists in seems to pervert sanity and reason, and ensures that individuals with little to no concern for human life rise to power.

This has led to a military where advanced technology is hindered by pointless superstition and ritual, is wasted on often archaicaly obsolete and self-defeating tactics, and is utilized by frothing madmen waving holy books and chainsaws. I have yet, however, to see a Codex or a book say something as blunt as "The Imperium can't create enough Valkyries, Leman Russes, Chimeras, Hydras, etc., for the Imperial Guard." I'm not saying such a statement doesn't exist anywhere... I'm just saying I would be shocked if that were the case.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> I'm just saying I would be shocked if that were the case.


I would be, too. But that's not what I meant.

What I meant by my earlier post is that the Imperium gets more bang for their buck by spreading a relatively moderate amount of materiel across a great many Guardsmen than a lot of resources on less Guardsmen.

I think we can all agree there, right?

Also, materiel might be spread thinner than you anticipate. Take the humble Chimera. It's produced on Forgeworlds, yet it is also simple enough that Hiveworlds can churn them out by the tens of thousands. The 5th edition Guard codex states, though, that mechanised infantry companies are still quite rare "because it is difficult for most Imeprial Commanders and PLanetary Governors to obtain and maintain enough of the vehicles needed..."

I don't doubt the Imperium's industrial might is staggering, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Imperium has a lot more human-coin to spend than it does materiel.


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