# Opinions on Escalation and D weapons



## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Last week we played a pretty big 4kpts per side 2v2 game, and my mate who recently bought the escalation supplement brought along his Uber C'tan.

I only play with friends on a semi regular basis, so i hadn't seen D-weapons in effect before - but they are pretty fucking ridiculous by all accounts.

General consensus at the end of our match was that the d-weapon partly ruined the game - our opponents were understandably frustrated that they were getting units washed off the table every turn, and my mate just felt guilty for doing so.

For those of you who play regularly in a more competitive meta, what is the impact like from escalation? Can you still bring a 2k list without a superheavy if there's a chance your opponent is going to be lobbing huge templates at you?


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## goldleader23 (May 5, 2010)

Yeah I understand. I had to play against that stupid ctan model in a 2k game. In one turn it killed two land raiders and then the next turn killed the terminators inside before I could do anything about it. Its absurd and killed any desire for me to play escalation ever again.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Thats why its called escalation...

If you bring something big and kill everything with it, your opponent has to go and buy something bigger to kill it.
Then when it insta kills whatever you've brought, you go to the shop to buy something even bigger.
And so on...

Its how you 'wage' war :grin:


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm still not sure about D weapons. They sound way to powerful to be used in regular 40k, but as I have not come up against any of they just yet I can't make an informed decision about their effects.

From my understanding a hit from a D weapon can pretty much take out another LoW. Is this correct?


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Personally I haven't played with the escalation rules, as I've banned them from the campaigns that I play. it's as simple as that really.

I read the rules, I saw the bat-reps. I saw what it did to the games that they are in - Essentially becoming all about the superheavies and everything else is just filler. That is not the way I wish to play 40k. I find it silly, unneeded and way out of proportion for a regular game.

So yes, I agree. I think this supplement is ridiculous and I will not be playing with it. I respect the opinions of those who thinks it's awesome, but I will never play it regularly, as I think it takes all the fun out of a game, as regardless of what you bring it will just be brought down by a D-weapon.


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## Mokuren (Mar 29, 2011)

Playing with D weapons is like playing a game of not-40K.

I mean, 40k has zero internal balance and rules that arbitrarily swing from punishing certain tactics for no valid reason to stacking every possible advantage on others, again without apparent reason, but D weapons are just a huge "fuck you". It's like you play Warhammer 40K except for a tack-on addition that is practically an entirely different set of rules patched on with no rhyme nor reason.

It's like I showed up at a game with 1250 points of any 40K army and then filled the remaining 500 with 10mm napoleonic figures and insisted in using their own game rules for them, regardless of whether it made sense or not and without giving a shit that they're off scale. I really don't see what makes it a good addition.


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

humakt said:


> I'm still not sure about D weapons. They sound way to powerful to be used in regular 40k, but as I have not come up against any of they just yet I can't make an informed decision about their effects.
> 
> From my understanding a hit from a D weapon can pretty much take out another LoW. Is this correct?


It can possibly remove another LOW, it certainly has the most potential to do so.

The templates are the huge apoc ones (twice the size of regular templates) and everything under it takes random multiple wounds on a 2+. Vehicles are destroyed on a 2+. No saves of any kind can be made (with the flamer template, not sure on cover saves for the others)

In the 2nd turn of the game I mentioned, the C'tan destroyed 3 centurions, a hammerhead and a tactical squad.

I can understand how it's fun if there are multiple superheavies and everyone has one - you all expect standard forces to get wiped off the board and you can have a quick mini apoc game. What i don't understand is why they feel it's reasonable to field a lord of war against a standard army list.

In this scenario no one really gets any pleasure out of the game - one guy lost his centurions he'd been building all weekend before they fired a shot. The guy who bought escalation and templates to use them just felt guilty and was the first to suggest we banned them. Including set up/chatting we spent 9 hours playing that game, and escalation soured what should have been a close, fun battle.

The worst thing is i like the idea of escalation. I'm never going to have a chance to play a proper apoc battle over multiple days, and it's cool to see these units on the table. I hope in future there is a revision to either limit teh effects of d-weapons, or increase the 'advantages' (if you can call them that) which your opponent receives for playing vs a LoW.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I've played with the aforementioned Super-Ctan in Apok, a specifically "Escalation, bring the pain" game, and in a normal game of 40k. I agree, it's devastating. I would not bring it to normal 40k, I think Escalation is a bad bad precedent, as it's "legal" for all games supposedly. I am in a campaign which has banned D-weapons, but allows escalation. I have NOT fielded my C'Tan as I feel that makes for un-fun games, even when he's not D-weap all the time. Even in the "bring the pain" and "apok" games, he was overwhelming and devestating, but that was the point of those games. Even then I felt that I wasn't allowing a lot of fun for my opponents.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

My friend uses a eldar super heavy grav tank with one and it basically makes the game pointless, nice to see the models but not worth playing against.


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## d3m01iti0n (Jun 5, 2012)

Good rumor, will be looking forward to this.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Salt.


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

d3m01iti0n said:


> Good rumor, will be looking forward to this.


I see you've noticed this thread has been posted in the wrong section, and have decided to alert me to this fact with sarcasm. Thanks for that.

I trust you reported this issue to the mods as well?


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## d3m01iti0n (Jun 5, 2012)

Varakir said:


> I see you've noticed this thread has been posted in the wrong section, and have decided to alert me to this fact with sarcasm. Thanks for that.
> 
> I trust you reported this issue to the mods as well?


Anytime :grin: And I would never report anybody; what do you think this is, B&C? :cray:


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## whittsy (Feb 8, 2013)

Like others, I've never played against D weapons, but I have seen them in play at my GW store. No thanks. Not for me. At least for the moment. I'm one of those people who if i played Escalation, I'd be taking 2 Lord of Skulls models just incase 1 gets pumped in the first turn, but I can't afford that shit. SO I choose not to play in Escalation. I think it's a form of the game that some would enjoy, and some wouldn't. Varakir, you and I are 2 peas from the same pod! Let the non tactical minded people have their D weapons. To me, they take away the "skill" from the game of out thinking, out maneuvering, and out army making your opponent. My 2 cents.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Having not played Escalation, or a whole lot of 6th Ed tbh, I'm not sure what weapons count as D. Are they all super heavies formerly limited to Apocalypse, or are there any regular units that have them?


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

d3m01iti0n said:


> And I would never report anybody; what do you think this is, B&C? :cray:


I meant report the thread to get it moved mate. By all means call me out for posting like a muppet, but let the mods know at the same time :wink:



whittsy said:


> I think it's a form of the game that some would enjoy, and some wouldn't. Varakir, you and I are 2 peas from the same pod! Let the non tactical minded people have their D weapons. To me, they take away the "skill" from the game of out thinking, out maneuvering, and out army making your opponent. My 2 cents.


I think you can actually play some fun, tactical games with the escalation rules - at some point we're hoping to play a 'hunt the c'tan' game or something. With prior warning i think it's fine to play these units, but having it as part of the core ruleset is just silly.

It's not an issue for me any longer as our group has discussed and fixed the problem, but I made the thread to see what it's like for those that just turn up and play at shops/clubs. I don't see how you can build a list without knowing if your opponent is bringing a LoW. 



Khorne's Fist said:


> Having not played Escalation, or a whole lot of 6th Ed tbh, I'm not sure what weapons count as D. Are they all super heavies formerly limited to Apocalypse, or are there any regular units that have them?


Escalation has a list of Apoc units you can use in 40k. D weapons are restricted to these units.


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

whittsy said:


> Like others, I've never played against D weapons, but I have seen them in play at my GW store. No thanks. Not for me. At least for the moment. I'm one of those people who if i played Escalation, I'd be taking 2 Lord of Skulls models just incase 1 gets pumped in the first turn, but I can't afford that shit. SO I choose not to play in Escalation. I think it's a form of the game that some would enjoy, and some wouldn't. Varakir, you and I are 2 peas from the same pod! Let the non tactical minded people have their D weapons. To me, they take away the "skill" from the game of out thinking, out maneuvering, and out army making your opponent. My 2 cents.



Two Lord of Skulls, eh?

That presents us with one of two possibilities...

One, you are really pushing the Escalation Rules by using Double FOC in order to field two Super Heavies.
Your opponents must love you.

Or Two.
You haven't read the Escalation Rules, yet still feel it's okay to add your ill informed "2 cents".


I wonder which it is...


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

I haven't seen nor played an escalation game.
But could it be made a lot Better by banning strength D? Or maybe just removing the blast on them, or the ignores cover?


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

Whilst not in Escalation, it was Apocalypse, I saw Strength D Weapons banned in an Ultramarines v Tau match-up.
The Ultramarines player was a GW Full Timer in GW Manchester and he always refused to play against D Weapons. 
The Tau player got slaughtered even though he had Superheavies.
He'd paid a premium in Points to field his vehicles and was being denied their full capabilities.
The Ultramarines player then went around crowing how easy it was to beat Super Heavies and that he was undefeated in Apocalypse ever because he was such a great player.
(He then moved on to GW Southport)

My point is that it is easy for anybody to win when you don't allow your opponent to use their models in their Army List to their full potential. 

Would anybody here be prepared to have say two Points costs for a Super Heavy/Gargantuan Creature choice?
The Points value in the book gets you the D Weapons and a 25% points discount gets you Strength 10 Ap 1 instead?

Why should the Lords of War player be expected to give something up for nothing?


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

As long as you know you're fighting a lord of war, it wouldn't be that bad. Just play a game of hunt the titan 

It just means my opponents drop pod full of sternguard with melta will have a worthwhile target. If I bring a khorn lord of skulls - thats 888 points. In a 2k game, that'd be giving my opponent the chance to wipe out half my army in one volley - if he gets first turn, then that could even be before it shoots.

Or I could reserve it so it comes on turn two, so if my opponent brings two drop pods, one could easily come down turn 2 and blow it up instead.

Blood Angels are even nastier than normal marines for once - vanguard vets with melta-bombs and they can still charge on the turn they arrive. 
I'm not sure what my eldar are going to do about super heavies (other than paint my cobra really quickly - ha it's been in a box for about 4 years...), but marines seem to have answers.

Someone bringing a Lord of War using escalation and not telling you in advance isn't worth playing anyway.
I don't see D-weapons as any worse than re-rollable 2++'s - both can ruin your day on occasion. Except we can both take d-weapons whereas some armies can't pull out re-rollable 2++'s.

So aside from marines, what are the options everyoe else for killing enemy armour on turn one?
Edit:
Thinking about it - D-weapons are blast most of the time. So fliers could be an answer then.



Pssyche said:


> Would anybody here be prepared to have say two Points costs for a Super Heavy/Gargantuan Creature choice?
> The Points value in the book gets you the D Weapons and a 25% points discount gets you Strength 10 Ap 1 instead?
> 
> Why should the Lords of War player be expected to give something up for nothing?


We never play with introduced nerfs - If it's in the rule book, it's legal. Double FoC, allies and at some point super heavies. We're all still having fun. A friend has now got a thunderhawk. I know at some point I'm going to get it in the face, but it'll be cool if I can take it out


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

Gret79 said:


> We never play with introduced nerfs - If it's in the rule book, it's legal. Double FoC, allies and at some point super heavies. We're all still having fun. A friend has now got a thunderhawk. I know at some point I'm going to get it in the face, but it'll be cool if I can take it out



Completely agree Gret79.
Everybody seems to be wanting an opponent to drop a significant part of their armoury from their legitimate List.

What concession next?
"I don't want you to field Troops, coz, like, they can win the game for you and that's not fair..."


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## Mokuren (Mar 29, 2011)

Gret79 said:


> I don't see D-weapons as any worse than re-rollable 2++'s - both can ruin your day on occasion. Except we can both take d-weapons whereas some armies can't pull out re-rollable 2++'s.


And some armies have no Lords of War. And some armies have no 2+ saves. And some armies don't have skyfire. And some armies don't have flyers. And some Lords of War are ridiculous and actively nerf your side (hello Lord of Skulls). I think you're missing the point here.



Gret79 said:


> So aside from marines, what are the options everyoe else for killing enemy armour on turn one?


You can bubble wrap your superheavies to avoid first turn meltas. It's not that difficult to pull, so don't get too excited about being able to assault a titan in turn one: it's nearly never going to happen.

As for killing enemy armour on turn one... I have exorcists. If I don't get first turn, I automatically lose them on a 2+ and then it's gg bye.



Gret79 said:


> Thinking about it - D-weapons are blast most of the time. So fliers could be an answer then.


I wish my army had fliers.



Gret79 said:


> We never play with introduced nerfs - If it's in the rule book, it's legal. Double FoC, allies and at some point super heavies. We're all still having fun. A friend has now got a thunderhawk. I know at some point I'm going to get it in the face, but it'll be cool if I can take it out


I haven't heard anyone complaining about double FoC, ever. Allies were whined about to no end, but as a matter of fact aside from one or two particular combos (Eldar/Tau or Tau/Eldar and pretty much nothing else) it does nearly nothing to make you more competitive, unless your army sucked in the first place, at which point it's begging the question of why you're not switching already.

Super heavies make you play a different game and add yet _another_ level of codex creep. Say to my face that the Eldar Revenant and the Lord of Skulls are equally powerful and valid without laughing, if you can.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

I think I need to get the escalation rules so I can field my stompa. Poor old brian has never been used since I built him a couple of years ago. I will spruce him up and make him more battered, then see how he gets on. He only has the D strength close combat weapon so I expect him to last slightly longer than my truck 

Waaagghh Brian


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

@falcoso is planning on bringing a Transcendent C'tan to our first game of testing Escalation, and I'd like to play a game against my two mates with Stompas as they seem to be the perfect Super-Heavy for Escalation (especially since we allow Forge World - a Warlord Big Mek Stompa that's Scoring, as are all Dreads and Kans in 12"? Yes) - they're big and have a lot of guns, but no 'I remove shit' guns or other silliness. Second place would be the Baneblade variants, which are just big tanks. I imagine the C'tan will dominate (depending on it's movement - we've agreed to follow the old rules for Str D, so they's auto-wound Instant Death hits but allow Invulns, so Knights or Hammer/Shield Deathwing might stick around for some time before being overwhelmed), but I'd be pretty happy to play against a non-Str-D superheavy.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Mokuren said:


> And some armies have no Lords of War. And some armies have no 2+ saves. And some armies don't have skyfire. And some armies don't have flyers. And some Lords of War are ridiculous and actively nerf your side (hello Lord of Skulls). I think you're missing the point here.
> You can bubble wrap your superheavies to avoid first turn meltas. It's not that difficult to pull, so don't get too excited about being able to assault a titan in turn one: it's nearly never going to happen.
> As for killing enemy armour on turn one... I have exorcists. If I don't get first turn, I automatically lose them on a 2+ and then it's gg bye.
> I wish my army had fliers.
> ...


Which armies have no lords of war?
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/L/lordsofwar.pdf

You're missing my point - just go with it and play to have fun - the game isn't balanced regardless of whether or not you play escalation.
Lots of D-weapons are blast so they scatter - they might miss you on turn one. Or you could put exorcists in different corners of your deployment zone so that unless you've got a silly amount of d-weapon off one LoW (Revenant I'm looking at you) they can't kill it all in one turn. And if you kill his troops, he can't win unless he tables you. D-weapons also have to roll to hurt now, so thats a slight nerf too.
At the end of this - it's still a dice game. Who hasn't ever had that one game where they couldn't roll a 2+ to save their life? 
Sisters get LoW fliers according to the above list. They might not be good (I don't know) but you get them.
You've never seen all the complaints about double foc? All the hundreds of lists/tourneys that are 1999+1? 
Allies aren't complained about? How many armies have Tau allies? I've seen posts from people complaining every army in the place they play has Tau allies. Especially with the formations you can bring now.

The revenant and the Lord of Skulls aren't equally powerful, same as a guardsman can't beat up a phoenix lord.
But then, show me a LoW choice available for eldar from GW for £95?
If you want something to take out a revenant, bring a super heavy flier. Blast weapons can't kill fliers. 

So, for sisters you get these
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Navy/MARAUDER_DESTROYER.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Navy/MARAUDER-BOMBER.html

I've no idea if they're good, but they look cool and will probably kill stuff. And isn't that the point of 40k?



humakt said:


> I think I need to get the escalation rules so I can field my stompa. Poor old brian has never been used since I built him a couple of years ago. I will spruce him up and make him more battered, then see how he gets on. He only has the D strength close combat weapon so I expect him to last slightly longer than my truck
> 
> Waaagghh Brian


Brian looks awesome  He's not the end of 40k, he's a very naughty boy :laugh:


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Gret79 said:


> Which armies have no lords of war?
> http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/L/lordsofwar.pdf


Now that is the thing to have an epic battle against a revenat! Hand to hand combat with a reaver! Dodge this xenos scum!




Gret79 said:


> Brian looks awesome  He's not the end of 40k, he's a very naughty boy :laugh:


 So many replies to this one pertaining to gourds and sandals :grin:


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> @falcoso is planning on bringing a Transcendent C'tan to our first game of testing Escalation, and I'd like to play a game against my two mates with Stompas as they seem to be the perfect Super-Heavy for Escalation (especially since we allow Forge World - a Warlord Big Mek Stompa that's Scoring, as are all Dreads and Kans in 12"? Yes) - they're big and have a lot of guns, but no 'I remove shit' guns or other silliness. Second place would be the Baneblade variants, which are just big tanks. I imagine the C'tan will dominate (depending on it's movement - we've agreed to follow the old rules for Str D, so they's auto-wound Instant Death hits but allow Invulns, so Knights or Hammer/Shield Deathwing might stick around for some time before being overwhelmed), but I'd be pretty happy to play against a non-Str-D superheavy.


If you're not playing with the current rule set, your not testing the system. The C'tan I've used in the current system is very non-fun. He just D-weapons the heck out of the enemy army. I haven't faced OTHER d-weapons, which should be the answer, but the SH my opponents choose don't use D-weapons, and they are just meat to the superhalitosis of my C'tan.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Pssyche said:


> Two Lord of Skulls, eh?
> 
> That presents us with one of two possibilities...
> 
> ...


Hey, throw out unprovoked random insults, great idea! That'll certainly encourage him to post again! :headbutt:

Or you could, you know, ask if he's sure he's allowed to field two of them.

On topic, D-Weapons are broken because they actively discourage you from taking units with a high Points Per Model ratio, and therefore armies that rely on them (Grey Knights, Chaos, Marines etc) are fucked in the ass with no answer apart from to take their own D-Weapons and hope they go first. Which is a stupid and skill-less way to play. Not to mention boring. Idiotic addition to the game that never should have existed in the first place.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Creon said:


> If you're not playing with the current rule set, your not testing the system. The C'tan I've used in the current system is very non-fun. He just D-weapons the heck out of the enemy army. I haven't faced OTHER d-weapons, which should be the answer, but the SH my opponents choose don't use D-weapons, and they are just meat to the superhalitosis of my C'tan.


I don't think you have to test the system with regard to Escalation and Apocalypse as they stand; they're obviously bad. So, we're toning them down a bit, and seeing if that makes them unplayably awful. If not, we may consider making them ignore Invulnerables and instakill vehicles.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

The issue is that its supposed to be that things are balanced in points costs, so changing effect of D weapons should result in lower costs, as you've turned them into slightly stronger AP:1 weapons.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Creon said:


> The issue is that its supposed to be that things are balanced in points costs, so changing effect of D weapons should result in lower costs, as you've turned them into slightly stronger AP:1 weapons.


Most or all of the Lords of War are priced exactly the same as their 4th and 5th edition versions, so they obviously haven't majorly repriced them to factor in the power levels of the new Strength D weapons.


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

Sethis said:


> Hey, throw out unprovoked random insults, great idea! That'll certainly encourage him to post again! :headbutt:
> 
> Or you could, you know, ask if he's sure he's allowed to field two of them.



I stand by what I said.
There's lots of people throwing their opinion around willy-nilly without having read, let alone played the Ruleset. 

It's plain wrong.

If you read a review of a Film, would you expect that the reviewer had actually SEEN the film?
Yes you would, otherwise the opinion of that reviewer wouldn't mean a thing.

No difference here. 
If you haven't read the book or even better, played the Ruleset and that includes Stronghold Assault and Apocalypse as well as Escalation, then your opinion is at best based on conjecture.


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## Mokuren (Mar 29, 2011)

Gret79 said:


> You're missing my point - just go with it and play to have fun - the game isn't balanced regardless of whether or not you play escalation.


Which isn't a good thing, by the way.

I play to have fun, I've been going to tournaments bringing storm troopers knowing fully well they'd cost me every game and not caring, but there's a certain point where getting curbstomped every time even outside tournaments because I play sisters and don't have 8 immolators or don't want to use unique characters for fluff reasons gets tiring, even for me. And I'm not even touching the issue of 20 years old models and their price.



Gret79 said:


> At the end of this - it's still a dice game. Who hasn't ever had that one game where they couldn't roll a 2+ to save their life?


That's irrelevant. It's still a dice game, but the difference between "you save a wound on a 2+" and "you hit on a 2+ with one model's ranged attacks" is a lot different from "everything under the template auto-dies on a 2+ and you can't do anything about it".

There's little actual tactics to 40K already (no, listbuilding isn't "tactics"), if you bring Escalation they wane even more until it becomes a superheavy dick-waving contest. What does this add to the game? Did we _really_ need another version of codex creep and "buy this to win"?



Gret79 said:


> Sisters get LoW fliers according to the above list. They might not be good (I don't know) but you get them.


Thank goodness there's Forge World. I could go on a tangent about how they're actually just Imperial Guard stuff we're allowed to use out of pity but I don't even care about being softsquatted any more.



Gret79 said:


> You've never seen all the complaints about double foc? All the hundreds of lists/tourneys that are 1999+1?


Never seen a tournament above 1750 in my area.



Gret79 said:


> Allies aren't complained about? How many armies have Tau allies? I've seen posts from people complaining every army in the place they play has Tau allies. Especially with the formations you can bring now.


The problem with Tau allies is that the Tau codex has some options that are balls to the walls insane, and the Eldar codex has, likewise, some options that are balls to the walls insane and the ally matrix lets the two of them join hands and prance about singing and whistling merrily like BFFs.

I'm pretty sure that if certain options, which I'm pretty sure both you and I know very well even without naming them, were removed or toned down then allies would suddenly become a non-issue.

It's just another extreme of the codex creep that has _always_ been around. It's just worse because everyone and their dog can take them since, for some reason, the worst offenders in this regard are friends with _everyone_, but that's not a problem with allies per se.



Gret79 said:


> The revenant and the Lord of Skulls aren't equally powerful, same as a guardsman can't beat up a phoenix lord.


But a guardsman doesn't compete in the same field and role as a phoenix lord, so if he ends up trying to beat one up, something went terribly, terribly wrong.

A Lord of Skulls, instead, _should_ compete directly with a Revenant titan, but guess who's never going to beat who?



Gret79 said:


> But then, show me a LoW choice available for eldar from GW for £95?


Just because it's cheaper than a more competitive option doesn't make the rules any better. Plus, once you reach that price point and feel like it's a good deal, worthy of your wallet, I don't think adding a few dozen pounds is going to kill you.



MidnightSun said:


> I don't think you have to test the system with regard to Escalation and Apocalypse as they stand; they're obviously bad. So, we're toning them down a bit, and seeing if that makes them unplayably awful. If not, we may consider making them ignore Invulnerables and instakill vehicles


Apocalypse I don't really care. Apocalypse is the point where you just take your entire collection, slam it on the table, don't care about the fact you have chaos marines, dark angels, tau, orks, daemons and those tyranids you have because you bought Space Hulk all on the same side and just go at it. Apocalypse is when there's over 10000 points on the table in a game of IGOUGO where the first player gets to shoot with about 10000 points while the other sits still, and don't come tell me that's not broken at that points level. Balance was out of the window from the beginning, but it's also irrelevant.

Escalation is played at a "normal" points level, where the game is supposed to be... Not gonna say "fair" but at least "balanced for casual play". It's not, and Escalation makes it worse without adding anything but more of what makes the game bad already.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Pssyche said:


> It's plain wrong.


So being a twat and insulting people who post -* in your opinion *- things that are wrong is the correct solution?


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

*This is an interesting thread and there are some good valid points from both sides of the argument. Please do not descend into personal insults and name calling. Keep it civil please. You have been warned!*


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Gret79 said:


> You're missing my point - just go with it and play to have fun - the game isn't balanced regardless of whether or not you play escalation.
> Lots of D-weapons are blast so they scatter - they might miss you on turn one. Or you could put exorcists in different corners of your deployment zone so that unless you've got a silly amount of d-weapon off one LoW (Revenant I'm looking at you) they can't kill it all in one turn. And if you kill his troops, he can't win unless he tables you. D-weapons also have to roll to hurt now, so that's a slight nerf too.
> At the end of this - it's still a dice game. Who hasn't ever had that one game where they couldn't roll a 2+ to save their life?


With D-weapons, it really isn't a dice game. It gives all the dice rolls to one player, and you just have to sit there and hope for the really small chance that your stuff doesn't get annihilated. For me the best moments in 40k are when the dice line up, you roll three 6's to wound and your opponent rolls three 1's for saves - even when the rolls are reversed it still feels epic (like when 6 kroot take out 3 of my terminators!) 

The d-weapons take away these chances for exciting dice rolls, because everything rests with 1 player, rolling 1 dice with a very high chance to remove your units.

But as i said earlier, I don't have a a problem with escalation per se. I agree with you in that if you pay the points, you should get the d-weapons. If everyone knows it's an escalation game beforehand, then i don't mind playing vs a LoW and i can build my list accordingly. But surely the point of escalation is to bring super heavies in a standard game, without having to consult your opponent? Or otherwise it's just like playing an expansion like apoc. Escalation in it's current state seems like a 3 helldrake list - it's legal, but a dick move.

If we allow my group to include escalation, then I simply have to build in options to take out a LoW. I also have to build in anti-air, and i still need my mandatory troops & HQ. It limits list building, and where i would usually take 'fun' choices in my list, i find i just don't have the points anymore.

So unfortunately we have had to ban escalation, and now my mate has a book he can't use


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

We've agreed at our FLGS that we will play "escalation approved" games and "Escalation free" games. As I've said I'm at the top of the Escalation mountain with a C'tan, Warhound Titan, and Scorpion painted and ready to go. Somehow, the Eldar Titan. the only other "d" weapon bearer. doesn't get used in 2k games. 

Unfortunately, Captain Nem-Ork's Submarine and my Pulsa-Rokkitt aren't valid pieces right now


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Creon said:


> We've agreed at our FLGS that we will play "escalation approved" games and "Escalation free" games. As I've said I'm at the top of the Escalation mountain with a C'tan, Warhound Titan, and Scorpion painted and ready to go. Somehow, the Eldar Titan. the only other "d" weapon bearer. doesn't get used in 2k games.
> 
> Unfortunately, Captain Nem-Ork's Submarine and my Pulsa-Rokkitt aren't valid pieces right now


I think that's the way most people will go, with 'announced escalation'. 

It's a shame, because if they tweaked the rules to make them a little more forgiving it could be pretty fun to see how your usual all comers list works out vs a super heavy.


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## Ryu_Niimura (May 1, 2013)

I must admit it's rather funny to see everybody get so worked up over Superheavies while they are actually just upset about the Revenant Titan. Seriously it's the only Superheavy in the Escalation book that I would consider overpowered. (I haven't looked at the superheavies that Forge World put out in much detail but at first glance they seem ok)

I can understand Pssyche's frustration because, from what he told me, he mostly plays Apocalypse games. Meaning he has probably seen quite a lot of superheavy vehicles on the table and knows their ins and outs, therefore he no longer fears them. Which imho is the only real problem here; fear.

Also it's rather funny how hardly anyone talks about the Stompa which I think is actually one of the best superheavies in the book. Not because it's so absurdly powerfull like the Revenant but because it's dirt cheap and opens up alot of fun possibilities^^.


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Ryu_Niimura said:


> I must admit it's rather funny to see everybody get so worked up over Superheavies while they are actually just upset about the Revenant Titan. Seriously it's the only Superheavy in the Escalation book that I would consider overpowered. (I haven't looked at the superheavies that Forge World put out in much detail but at first glance they seem ok)
> 
> I can understand Pssyche's frustration because, from what he told me, he mostly plays Apocalypse games. Meaning he has probably seen quite a lot of superheavy vehicles on the table and knows their ins and outs, therefore he no longer fears them. Which imho is the only real problem here; fear.
> 
> Also it's rather funny how hardly anyone talks about the Stompa which I think is actually one of the best superheavies in the book. Not because it's so absurdly powerfull like the Revenant but because it's dirt cheap and opens up alot of fun possibilities^^.


No one is getting worked up or afraid, i'm not entirely sure what you are talking about? The issue is that d-weapons are not fun to play against in a normal 40k game unless you are prepared for them.

i'm prepared to listen to your counter argument, as my experience with them is pretty limited and i'm struggling to see how you fight these things. For example, what options can my mate bring in his iron hands army to stop the c'tan? He has access to most units, but doesn't have any flyers, drop pods or bikes.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Mokuren said:


> Which isn't a good thing, by the way.





Mokuren said:


> I play to have fun, I've been going to tournaments bringing storm troopers knowing fully well they'd cost me every game and not caring, but there's a certain point where getting curbstomped every time even outside tournaments because I play sisters and don't have 8 immolators or don't want to use unique characters for fluff reasons gets tiring, even for me. And I'm not even touching the issue of 20 years old models and their price.
> 
> That's irrelevant. It's still a dice game, but the difference between "you save a wound on a 2+" and "you hit on a 2+ with one model's ranged attacks" is a lot different from "everything under the template auto-dies on a 2+ and you can't do anything about it".
> 
> ...




I didn't say it was a good thing, merely that it IS a thing.
40K will always be buy to win. They're a company trying to sell you things. What better way to sell the new stuff than to make it better than anything previously?

You get the titan too though - those are imperial but non affiliated to any imperial army so you could get one of those and use it if you wanted to 
Go look in the army lists section on a few 40k/gaming sites - the fact that 1999+1 even exists is a complaint about 40k.
I have no problem with allies - I just said that people do have issues with them.
I love the phrase - "a few dozen pounds" I'm going to have to remember to try that on the wife :laugh:
I can get GW stuff for 20% off. So a lord of skulls works out at about £70. A revenant is £190. If you see it with money off anywhere, it's fake or it's been badly assembled/painted/abused.
So you're far more likely to see a Lord Of Skulls than a revenant. And I've never seen a titan thats just been slapped together and badly painted just to get the rules ingame - all the one's I've seen have been labours of love. What with all the washing/filing/bending/painting and stroking they need.
And just because things cost the same in points or pounds doesn't mean they can fight each other evenly - eg buy 170pts of marines. Put them against a heldrake. Lose every single time. 
If escalation is just a '40 dick waving contest' then the first person to buy a manta will be king. Cos that person has just spent a £1000 trying to win. Because no-one buys forgeworld units cos they’re cool or pretty models, they’re only bought to abuse rules…
Besides, if the space marines do get a plastic thunderhawk, expect the revenant to become utterly irrelevant as it has 4 missiles at st5 if you buy the upgrade that it can shoot at fliers and cheaply slapped together thunderhawks will become a major presence. The same goes for the knight rumours - if SM get a cheap lord of war, escalation will be everywhere.

This game is not supposed to be balanced or fair. It’s never been remotely balanced or fair – it’d be great if it was.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Varakir said:


> But as i said earlier, I don't have a a problem with escalation per se. I agree with you in that if you pay the points, you should get the d-weapons. If everyone knows it's an escalation game beforehand, then i don't mind playing vs a LoW and i can build my list accordingly. But surely the point of escalation is to bring super heavies in a standard game, without having to consult your opponent? Or otherwise it's just like playing an expansion like apoc. Escalation in it's current state seems like a 3 helldrake list - it's legal, but a dick move.
> 
> If we allow my group to include escalation, then I simply have to build in options to take out a LoW. I also have to build in anti-air, and i still need my mandatory troops & HQ. It limits list building, and where i would usually take 'fun' choices in my list, i find i just don't have the points anymore.
> 
> So unfortunately we have had to ban escalation, and now my mate has a book he can't use


Did you play an escalation mission?
Did you bring units specifically to kill a lord of war? Cos thats (IMO) what bringing escalation means.

I give my opponent my army list before every game - If we're going to play escalation, we'll know beforehand and plan accordingly. I completely agree, trying to surprise your opponent with a LOW is a complete dick move, same as 3 heldrakes or tau/dar or a full riptide list. The list of ways to be a dick in 40k is limitless :laugh:


Is it just the d-weapons you're not happy about or is it Lords of War? I'm fairly sure the transcendant c-tan can come along with no d-weapons. Would you play it then?

Is someone bringing a surprise LoW likely to happen? The only place imo this should happen is in a tourney and then tbh you should expect someone to try it. Otherwise, your opponent is a dick. But being a dick is still acheivable without bringing a lord of war.

If you're happy to play escalation by planning for it, then your friend won't lose out 
Just have a game every now and then. When you manage to kill the c-tan, you'll be about ready to do a lap of honour

Or bring a Tau Manta in a 3k list.

10St 8 ap3 missiles.
48 st 5 ap5 shots a turn
2 st 7 ap4 missiles
9 st7 ap3 shots a turn
2 110" d weapons with ap1, ordnance shots.

Never lose again, completely immune to the revenant titan and the C-tan 

When 6th came out, I fought a BA 3 stormraven list with my 4th ed eldar codex - I got my arse kicked. I didn't want to have to go and buy planes and an aegis because I felt I would rather bring 'fun' units - this ended up as not being an option as because everyone had to plan for fliers, so they became a permanent fixture.
I think escalation could well go the same way.
And as there were no codex eldar fliers when I needed them I bought a phoenix bomber, converted 2 nightwings out of dark eldar fliers and bought a custom eldar aegis - so I only had to spend about £180 to make my army able to cope with fliers. I just see this as more of the same :/


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## Ryu_Niimura (May 1, 2013)

Varakir said:


> No one is getting worked up or afraid, i'm not entirely sure what you are talking about? The issue is that d-weapons are not fun to play against in a normal 40k game unless you are prepared for them.
> 
> i'm prepared to listen to your counter argument, as my experience with them is pretty limited and i'm struggling to see how you fight these things. For example, what options can my mate bring in his iron hands army to stop the c'tan? He has access to most units, but doesn't have any flyers, drop pods or bikes.


I have to disagree with you; with everyone shouting that D-weapons take the fun out of the game and superheavies being overpowered without really looking past the intimidating looking models and abundancy of special rules.

For starters, the C' than will cost you 720PTS (Transliminal Stride, Cosmic Fire, Wave of Withering) that's a lot of Space Marines! My first reaction to it would be to drown it in shots; you get 1 VP for every 3 wounds it loses so even if it manages to destroy an entire unit with one shooting phase you break even if you managed to take 3 wounds of it. It has T9 3+/4++ with FNP (DElder would have a field day against this guy^^) which is intimidating at first glance but when you're throwing everything you've got at this guy he is bound to take a couple of wounds. Furthermore superheavy walkers and gargantuan creatures can be locked in combat, yes it is going to win but if even a single fearless marine manages to survive he will be stuck there unable to shoot for a turn in which you focus your attention to the remainder of his army. (Note that the most likely result he'll get when making stomp attacks is S6 AP4, meaning you still get your 3+ armour safe) Also Rhino's are a godsend because he'll have to crack them first before getting to the soft and creamy center^^.

Hope this helped!

Edit; Also don't forget you can roll on the Escalation Warlords table even if you don't have a LoW yourself, there's some really nice results you could roll up. And you seize the initiative on a 5+ instead of a 6 ofcourse^^


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## Ryu_Niimura (May 1, 2013)

Btw don't Space Marines have acces to Divination? Cast Misfortune on the bloody thing and possibly wipe it out on a single turn:grin:


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Some great tactics here against the C'Tan. 

I think its the eldar LoW that is the problematic one from what I hear, but without reading the book I can't add much more to this debate.

How tough is a Thunderhawk?


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

front + side av12
10 back
four twin linked heavy bolters
ceramite hull
2 lascannons
can upgrade the cannon to a turbo laser destructor - 96" D, Ap2, large blast

for about 650points with 9 hull points.

But it's a flier, so all the usual rules for fliers apply. Escalation dropped it's points cost by about 300 points.
It can also carry 30 models - these can be jump infantry or bikes instead.So I think bulky comes into play too.

So, you could put most of your army in this, fly on and nail the eldar titan wherever it is...

The Eldar one is op, but there are things that can kill it.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Cheers @Greta. I so really want a plastic Thunderhawk.

Never have I wanted so much for a rumour to be true :laugh:


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

But no-one will let you play with it (its got a d-weapon), so it's pointless buying one :laugh:

:thank_you:I'm here all week...


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Gret79 said:


> But no-one will let you play with it (its got a d-weapon), so it's pointless buying one :laugh:
> 
> :thank_you:I'm here all week...


But but but but but ... .. :shout:


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Gret79 said:


> I give my opponent my army list before every game - If we're going to play escalation, we'll know beforehand and plan accordingly. I completely agree, trying to surprise your opponent with a LOW is a complete dick move, same as 3 heldrakes or tau/dar or a full riptide list. The list of ways to be a dick in 40k is limitless :laugh:
> 
> 
> Is it just the d-weapons you're not happy about or is it Lords of War? I'm fairly sure the transcendant c-tan can come along with no d-weapons. Would you play it then?
> ...


We always share army lists just before the game starts, so at that point there is no chance to change a list. We are all quite happy to play escalation if it's announced, but then everyone knows what's coming and we might as well be playing apoc.

I just find it strange that escalation is supposedly a way to play your superheavies in a 'normal' game, but what actually happens is we have another expansion so we can play 'escalation games', rather than a supplement to the core rules that it is supposed to be.

We are looking at whether we allow LoW without D-weapons - i think that could well be the answer. Even vs S10 Ap1 blasts i feel a lot safer than vs the d-weapons, and my units that can threaten the LoW actually have a chance to survive more than 1 turn.





Ryu_Niimura said:


> For starters, the C' than will cost you 720PTS (Transliminal Stride, Cosmic Fire, Wave of Withering) that's a lot of Space Marines! My first reaction to it would be to drown it in shots; you get 1 VP for every 3 wounds it loses so even if it manages to destroy an entire unit with one shooting phase you break even if you managed to take 3 wounds of it. It has T9 3+/4++ with FNP (DElder would have a field day against this guy^^) which is intimidating at first glance but when you're throwing everything you've got at this guy he is bound to take a couple of wounds. Furthermore superheavy walkers and gargantuan creatures can be locked in combat, yes it is going to win but if even a single fearless marine manages to survive he will be stuck there unable to shoot for a turn in which you focus your attention to the remainder of his army. (Note that the most likely result he'll get when making stomp attacks is S6 AP4, meaning you still get your 3+ armour safe) Also Rhino's are a godsend because he'll have to crack them first before getting to the soft and creamy center^^.
> 
> Hope this helped!


How do you drown it with shots? Bolters are only S4 so they are incapable of doing damage. Poison/sniper only wounds on a 6 as it's gargantuan. Lascannons are expensive and my heavy slots are better filled with other things. Grav centurions would work, but will struggle to get in range since it can move 18".

The most reliable way i can see to kill it is to take 2 pods full of sternguard with combi-meltas and vulkan (over 900 points). That should get me 20 melta hits, averaging 6-7 wounds. Then he still gets his 4++ and FNP. If they don't kill it on that turn then both squads will probably be wiped off the table.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

What were the armies involved? 
Storm ravens would be good for marines as the c-tan couldn't blast them with anything as far as I'm aware.


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Gret79 said:


> What were the armies involved?
> Storm ravens would be good for marines as the c-tan couldn't blast them with anything as far as I'm aware.


In the game i mentioned in the original post it was my salamanders & the necrons, facing off against tau/CSM & Iron hands. The c'tan ended the game with 2 wounds missing - he took fire from 3 lascannon centurions, a predator annihilator, a ML/Las dread and 3 broadsides from turn 2 onwards.

Ravens are a good shout, though you'd have to hope they come in early enough to make a difference. They can be dodged quite easily if they stay zooming as well.

The stormwing formation they were selling over xmas could work quite nicely, but again suffers the same issues as above.


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## Ryu_Niimura (May 1, 2013)

Varakir said:


> We always share army lists just before the game starts, so at that point there is no chance to change a list. We are all quite happy to play escalation if it's announced, but then everyone knows what's coming and we might as well be playing apoc.
> 
> I just find it strange that escalation is supposedly a way to play your superheavies in a 'normal' game, but what actually happens is we have another expansion so we can play 'escalation games', rather than a supplement to the core rules that it is supposed to be.
> 
> ...


It doesn't matter that poison will only wound on a 6 because of the sheer amount of shots Delder is capable of putting out in a single shooting phase, even their most basic troops are capable of harming it. But really anything with a strength value of a 6 or higher is capable of hurting it, don't bother with the expensive lasscanon, think heavy-bolters, plasma and meltaguns. They are much cheaper and therefore can be fielded in much larger quantities. Those broadsides were prob equipped with railguns correct? Bring missilesides instead and bury it in blast templates! The only way you are getting through that 4++ is by letting your opponent throw lots off dice.


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Ryu_Niimura said:


> But really anything with a strength value of a 6 or higher is capable of hurting it, don't bother with the expensive lasscanon, think heavy-bolters, plasma and meltaguns. They are much cheaper and therefore can be fielded in much larger quantities. Those broadsides were prob equipped with railguns correct? Bring missilesides instead and bury it in blast templates! The only way you are getting through that 4++ is by letting your opponent throw lots off dice.


SM can't take any of those weapons in large quantities due to wargear restrictions, and getting a melta into 12" range with a rhino would be like serving them up on a plate. Heavy bolters are Strength 5 by the way.

The broadsides were armed with heavy rail rifles and SMS. I wasn't aware they had a blast weapon option, and even if they did i don't see how a blast template is a better option on a single target?


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## Ryu_Niimura (May 1, 2013)

Varakir said:


> SM can't take any of those weapons in large quantities due to wargear restrictions, and getting a melta into 12" range with a rhino would be like serving them up on a plate. Heavy bolters are Strength 5 by the way.
> 
> The broadsides were armed with heavy rail rifles and SMS. I wasn't aware they had a blast weapon option, and even if they did i don't see how a blast template is a better option on a single target?


I was just throwing ideas out there, I have no idea how Space Marines work but I was under the impression they could take plenty of specialist weapons. My bad on the Heavy bolter, I could have sworn it was S6 but apparently I was mistaking. If the Broadsides could only put out a single blast template do you think I would have mentioned them? No they put out a fuckton of shots along with their little Missile Drones. Seriously look them up, missilesides are awesome!:grin:

And you're being way too narrowminded about this, there are countless possibilities on how to deal with a superheavy but no hard counter which is what you're looking for it seems.

Edit; And if all else fails just tarpit it, marines are pretty good at that with them being fearless and all.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Ryu_Niimura said:


> It doesn't matter that poison will only wound on a 6 because of the sheer amount of shots Delder is capable of putting out in a single shooting phase, even their most basic troops are capable of harming it.


No way. Dark Eldar can't beat Necrons in mobility, shooting or combat, so I'm not entirely sure what advantage they have.

Dark Eldar army putting out 150 Splinter shots will deal 100 hits, 16 wounds, 5 will go through the C'tan's armour, and 3 will go through Feel No Pain.

The chances of getting 150 Splinter shots into range and Line of Sight of a highly mobile, barely-bigger-than-a-Terminator model is roughly nil.


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Ryu_Niimura said:


> And you're being way too narrowminded about this, there are countless possibilities on how to deal with a superheavy but no hard counter which is what you're looking for it seems.
> 
> Edit; And if all else fails just tarpit it, marines are pretty good at that with them being fearless and all.


In what way am i being narrow minded? You're telling me that my army has 'countless possibilities to deal with a super heavy', yet in the paragraph before that you said you have no idea how marines work.

Like i said earlier, i'm open to listen to your argument for d-weapons, but at the moment you're doing very little to convince me.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

I've been on the receiving end of a D-Weapon in an 1850 per army 2v2 game. I was the one getting hammered the most by one of the shops regulars and my friend. Luckily I didn't have entire units getting wiped off the board, but each time I got hit by it, I lost about half a squad at least. It sucked.


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## Ryu_Niimura (May 1, 2013)

Varakir said:


> In what way am i being narrow minded? You're telling me that my army has 'countless possibilities to deal with a super heavy', yet in the paragraph before that you said you have no idea how marines work.
> 
> Like i said earlier, i'm open to listen to your argument for d-weapons, but at the moment you're doing very little to convince me.


Because from the sound of it you're looking for a hard counter when there simply is none. I wasn't specifically talking about your army when I said there are countless possibilities but it sounds like you're having trouble with thinking outside the box. I'm trying to be as clear as possible in my arguments but I can't help but feel you're only reading half of it and expect me to provide you with a how-to-guide for dealing with superheavies. I've given you some great examples on how to deal with a C'than but if you just keep waving them away without of actually thinking on your own I'm clearly wasting my time.

@Midnight; I'm not sure what kind of math you are using to come up with those numbers but they seem highly unlikely to me, perhaps it's just because I have good luck.

Edit; Just to be absolutely clear on this; there is no definitive answer against a superheavy aside from bringing one yourself so don't look for one.


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Ryu_Niimura said:


> Because from the sound of it you're looking for a hard counter when there simply is none. I wasn't specifically talking about your army when I said there are countless possibilities but it sounds like you're having trouble with thinking outside the box. I'm trying to be as clear as possible in my arguments but I can't help but feel you're only reading half of it and expect me to provide you with a how-to-guide for dealing with superheavies. I've given you some great examples on how to deal with a C'than but if you just keep waving them away without of actually thinking on your own I'm clearly wasting my time.
> 
> @Midnight; I'm not sure what kind of math you are using to come up with those numbers but they seem highly unlikely to me, perhaps it's just because I have good luck.
> 
> Edit; Just to be absolutely clear on this; there is no definitive answer against a superheavy aside from bringing one yourself so don't look for one.


Your condescending tone is starting to grate to be honest mate. You were the one who came into the thread and said everyone was worrying over nothing so I assumed you were willing to back that up. You may not find them hard to deal with, but I am struggling to see how i would.

You can rest assured i've read your arguments quite thoroughly, and i'm playing devil's advocate as to why they do not seem to be reasonable. I've also provided several of my own ideas on how to deal with the c'tan, and explored their strengths and weaknesses.

I understand that a hard counter doesn't exist, and i know I can kill a c'tan if I devote my entire list to doing so (points withstanding). My point stands that i cannot take anything with 720 points that has a reasonable chance of killing it before it kills them (except the flyers i was discussing with Gret which does sound like a plausible, yet not ideal option)

If you don't have experience with marines then fair enough, but why try and give advice on them if you don't know what you're talking about? In this case, you are indeed wasting your time and mine.

I would like to keep the discussion going, so if we can move away from marines, could you discuss what you would do with your army(ies) vs a Lord of War?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Ryu_Niimura said:


> [email protected]; I'm not sure what kind of math you are using to come up with those numbers but they seem highly unlikely to me, perhaps it's just because I have good luck.


150 Splinter shots (a fairly high number, but within reach of a Dark Eldar army that's building for Splinter spam at, ooh, 2000pts) at BS4 - 66% of 150 is 100 (yeah, ok, 66.6666%, but whatever). Wounding on 6s, because of Gargantuan Immunities; 100/6 is 16.66666. 3+ Armour on the C'tan, so 33% of 16.6666 is 5.555555. 5.5555 divided by 3 for Feel No Pain (from Garganutan Immunities) = 1.85185.

150 Splinter shots deal 1.85185 wounds to a Transcendant C'tan. That's terrible odds. Meanwhile, the C'tan lays down one Hellstorm Template and your army disappears.


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## Ryu_Niimura (May 1, 2013)

Varakir said:


> Your condescending tone is starting to grate to be honest mate. You were the one who came into the thread and said everyone was worrying over nothing so I assumed you were willing to back that up. You may not find them hard to deal with, but I am struggling to see how i would.
> 
> You can rest assured i've read your arguments quite thoroughly, and i'm playing devil's advocate as to why they do not seem to be reasonable. I've also provided several of my own ideas on how to deal with the c'tan, and explored their strengths and weaknesses.
> 
> ...


I didn't mean to be condescending, I'm sorry if it appeared that way to you. I never implied I knew how Space Marines worked, I was merely being as generic as possible in giving advice on how to deal with a superheavy. The few Space Marine armies I played against had quite a bit of firepower so I just assumed they could take plenty of high strength weaponry, my mistake. The strategies I listed should work with most armies.

On the point that you can't take anything for those 720PTS that could deal with the C'than you're probably right, you know your army far better than I do so I can't really comment on that. Your best bet would be to tarpit it with a couple of expendable units and try to minimize the damage as much as possible. Like I said the most likely result he's going to roll for his stomp attacks still lets you take your 3+ armour saves so as long as at least a single marine survives at the end of your combat phase you can tie him up for several turns rendering his shooting attacks useless.

The ideas I initially gave you would be my initial response to any superheavy although the best way of dealing with it highly depends on the unit ie. I've seen a handfull of Genestealers dismantle a Baneblade with a few lucky dice rolls, something I wouldn't even consider trying on your C'than.

I understand your point but I think you're being a bit too sceptical imho. Also I must have glossed over your own ideas on how to deal with it, I'll read up on them and get back to you on that.



MidnightSun said:


> 150 Splinter shots (a fairly high number, but within reach of a Dark Eldar army that's building for Splinter spam at, ooh, 2000pts) at BS4 - 66% of 150 is 100 (yeah, ok, 66.6666%, but whatever). Wounding on 6s, because of Gargantuan Immunities; 100/6 is 16.66666. 3+ Armour on the C'tan, so 33% of 16.6666 is 5.555555. 5.5555 divided by 3 for Feel No Pain (from Garganutan Immunities) = 1.85185.
> 
> 150 Splinter shots deal 1.85185 wounds to a Transcendant C'tan. That's terrible odds. Meanwhile, the C'tan lays down one Hellstorm Template and your army disappears.


I agree that when you look at it like this the C'than becomes downright terrifying. However I find that the way things play out on the table never really live up to what you'd expect from them on paper ie. my Lord of Skulls looks pretty underwhelming compared to the other superheavies on paper but I've found him to be quite monstrous on the battlefield:grin: Then again, like I said, it could all just be luck.



Varakir said:


> The most reliable way i can see to kill it is to take 2 pods full of sternguard with combi-meltas and vulkan (over 900 points). That should get me 20 melta hits, averaging 6-7 wounds. Then he still gets his 4++ and FNP. If they don't kill it on that turn then both squads will probably be wiped off the table.


 The way I see it this is a coin toss and not in any way reliable. If you don't kill it in a single turn (which you should never expect to do) you've just lost almost half your army on a gable and with that probably the game. My advice would be to "devide and conquer" but since I'm not familiar with your army I can't really give you any advice on how to acomplish that. I can tell you that your opponent is most likely going after your most threatening units first and the best way to counter this is to make every unit in your army equally threatening. That way you give your opponent so many options he's bound to make a mistake which you can then exploit.

Edit; Another idea is to use one of your more threatening units as bait to force him out of position which the rest of your army can then benefit from.


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Ryu_Niimura said:


> I understand your point but I think you're being a bit too sceptical imho. Also I must have glossed over your own ideas on how to deal with it, I'll read up on them and get back to you on that.


I am being sceptical, but with purpose. I'd like to keep the c'tan and escalation rules in play within our group, but i want to know we have a chance of fighting back before that can happen.

Marines can't tarpit very well, but i could throw assault marines at it. Does stomp go in addition to his normal attacks? If i read correctly he gets 8 S9 AP2 attacks, so if it does he still has a fair chance of clearing a unit of 10. 2 squads with multiple plasma pistols might work if i can get them there.



Ryu_Niimura said:


> The way I see it this is a coin toss and not in any way reliable. If you don't kill it in a single turn (which you should never expect to do) you've just lost almost half your army on a gable and with that probably the game.


The majority of my tactical decisions are high risk vs high reward. I think i may be a secret gambling addict :wink:

I'm aware it's not a great choice, it's just the most reliable way to get S8 weapons firing on it without having to risk being decimated by the d-weapon. I was also trying to illustrate how difficult it is for me to bring down despite spending so many points. I have the firepower to kill it, it's just getting it close enough that is the problem. If you take away the d-weapon i can think of lots of options to get in close and survive (if i'm lucky) but without any saves it's really quite tricky.


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## Ryu_Niimura (May 1, 2013)

Varakir said:


> I am being sceptical, but with purpose. I'd like to keep the c'tan and escalation rules in play within our group, but i want to know we have a chance of fighting back before that can happen.
> 
> Marines can't tarpit very well, but i could throw assault marines at it. Does stomp go in addition to his normal attacks? If i read correctly he gets 8 S9 AP2 attacks, so if it does he still has a fair chance of clearing a unit of 10. 2 squads with multiple plasma pistols might work if i can get them there.
> 
> ...


Can't marines take units with more than 10 models? If not that could pose a problem since he gets d3 stomp attacks in addition to his close combat attacks making him capable of destroying the entire unit in a single turn of combat. It's a bit of a gamble I agree but if it does work that means you've just rendered 1/3 of his army pretty much useless for his next turn.

Hahaha gambling is always fun and very rewarding if things go "just as planned", just don't lose your temper when things go sideways:grin: I'm a big fan of creating elaborate plans that have very little chance of actually succeeding myself. But when they do, my god is it beautifull! xD


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Ryu_Niimura said:


> Can't marines take units with more than 10 models? If not that could pose a problem since he gets d3 stomp attacks in addition to his close combat attacks making him capable of destroying the entire unit in a single turn of combat. It's a bit of a gamble I agree but if it does work that means you've just rendered 1/3 of his army pretty much useless for his next turn.
> 
> Hahaha gambling is always fun and very rewarding if things go "just as planned", just don't lose your temper when things go sideways:grin: I'm a big fan of creating elaborate plans that have very little chance of actually succeeding myself. But when they do, my god is it beautifull! xD


Nope, 10 is the max squad size. It's also quite a pricy unit for a tarpit 

I never get annoyed when my gambles go wrong, that's half the fun :wink:


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## serphangel (Feb 1, 2014)

To be fair I believe that eldar Wraith Wall has the best chance against super heavies if you can get the distortion weaponary they can field into range. Things like the Wraithseer, knight and guard can all carry distortion weaponary. And there is also vauls wrath. D3 wound per roll of 6 to wound at AP2 is better each attempt doing only one wound. I do realise that this doesn't help the majority of players who don't play eldar...............also I am now wondering if it is a coment on just how over powered the eldar codex is


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

10 Wraithguard getting into range is going to put the hurt on anything.
Especially with a farseer using guide + potentially Doom (if it works on gargantuan monstrous creatures).
They aren't over powered because you still have a fairly major problem.

How do you get them there?

Only the wraithguard have enough guns to take down the ctan and I think you'd need two squads of 10. The other d-cannon weaponry toting squads would need to be rolling all 6's and that can't be relied on.
10 Wraithguard can't fit in any codex transports, so they have to foot slog. They have a 12" shooting range. At which point, the Transcendant C'tan looks at them funny and they evapororate.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

As for taking it down with marines - how about going double force organistaion, taking 3 storm ravens full of melta-sternguard and two drop pods of melta sternguard?

IIRC, 3 wounds off the c-tan is worth a vp - adding in 1st blood from a drop pod (shooting the most vulnerable unit on the table) would be worth about 4vp in total. Linebreaker should be acheivable so then there is only slay the warlord and any objectives to consider. 

And if your opponent doesn't bring a lord of war, all those units are useful anyway.


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## serphangel (Feb 1, 2014)

actually you can have 10 wraithguard in range from deployment using Illic Nightspear. I realise this may seem like a debatable and not a nice way to use Illic's rule but when I spotted I spoke to my local GW store manager who check with the designers at HQ and emailed him a conformation that you could infiltrate any eldar unit using Illic. yes you can deploy Illic and 10 wraithguard 1" away using infiltration


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

So if you infiltrate 10 wraithguard with wraithcannons next to it, you roll 10 shots at bs4
Thats going to hit with 6-7 st 10 shots.
Then you roll to hurt - 2 in 3 hurt (st10 vs T9)
So thats about 4-5 wounds, it then gets it's 4++ so thats 2-3 wounds ish. You'd need to roll a lot of 6's again.

I honestly don't think one squad would be enough to take the c-tan out, you'd need at least two and a farseer to stack the odds even further IMO.

I also don't think I'd get away with using Illic to infiltrate a unit 1" away as it'd cause an argument about attaching squads to characters with infiltrate and infiltrating them all together.

Also, if you infiltrated next to the c-tan and DIDN'T get first turn...thats 470 pointsish (can't remember Illic's cost )you're not going to see again... :laugh:


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## serphangel (Feb 1, 2014)

Very true but it may stop him targetting your other stuff long enough for the to do some damage. To be fair in my local gaming club I developed this tactic to counter a SM sniper army hiding behind an ADL. I used D-scythes that time and how the tears flowed.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

The problem is the c-tan could kill it in a turn and it's a worthwhile target for him :/

If your local gaming club let you do that then :laugh:. Actually, thats not enough, it needs this :rofl:
Do they then tell you your army is op?... cos they've brought that on themselves.

As an aside, what do people think of the eldar vampire hunter/raider?
Eldar Titan holofields, hard to hit and evade means they can only be hit on 6's, get a 50/50 special save and then a 5+ evade - that seems ridiculous so I'm hoping I've got that wrong. At least the revenant can be shot normally, even if it does then get a 50/50++.
edit:super heavy fliers don't get to evade.


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## serphangel (Feb 1, 2014)

They initially believed the army to be over powered and then the sniper list began to be used by a rather unpleasant player. The club descided that the move couldn't be contested as I had stapled an email from GW HQ stating that this was legal and how the rule with Illic was ment to be used to my army list. I still offered to roll of on the rule but the opponent declined the offer.


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## Ryu_Niimura (May 1, 2013)

Returning to the subject of SM vs. C'than; I've been glossing over the SM codex trying to come up with possible ways for them to deal with the lil suneater when suddenly Devastators caught my eye. I'm not sure anyone even uses them as they are being overshadowed by the other contenders for the HS slot, however a basic squad carrying 4 missile launchers for only 130PTS sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me. Ofcourse you're going to need a lot more in order to bring the C'than to it's knees but I think it's a start and the missile launchers are quite versatile. What do you guys think?


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

Well, as with any unit, the ctan looks at them funny and *poof* I see no devastors!
And even then, it'll take much more than the ctans worth to bring him down with those, so is it really worth it?


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## Ryu_Niimura (May 1, 2013)

kiro the avenger! said:


> Well, as with any unit, the ctan looks at them funny and *poof* I see no devastors!
> And even then, it'll take much more than the ctans worth to bring him down with those, so is it really worth it?


Well he'll have to get in range of them first, something that'll take him 2 turns. I mentioned them because they are very cheap compared to what they bring to the table.

A drop pod filled with Sternguard vets with combi-gravs should be able to finish him off. It's such a shame vanilla SM don't have acces to divination, misfortune would turn the thing in nothing more than an exspensive paperweight:grin:


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## Dakingofchaos (Sep 29, 2009)

In my opinion the D-Weapons in standard games (as well as the uber creatures) are very unbalanced, the optional warlord traits don't do much to help things either. Yes there are units that a capable of popping them but even their a long shot. I got the book and havent played them in standard games, however the extra scenerios (meant for use with the heavies) are fun to play.


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Gret79 said:


> As for taking it down with marines - how about going double force organistaion, taking 3 storm ravens full of melta-sternguard and two drop pods of melta sternguard?
> 
> And if your opponent doesn't bring a lord of war, all those units are useful anyway.


That is a fuckton of points though - if you mean full squads that's like over 2k!

The devastators aren't a bad idea, krak missiles might actually do some damage and i could justify bringing 2 units of these chaps (possibly with an inquis for prescience).

Only problem here is their mobility. If he hides it from them they are pretty screwed.

Triple grav/melta bike squads are my latest idea. 27 grav and 3 melta shots might just put a dent in it!


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## Stormxlr (Sep 11, 2013)

I posted this in another thread but i want to know how good is a Thunderhawk, I am getting supplies to start scratch building it (and other stuff). But how good is it competitively and in general.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Would it be worth buying a bastion for the devastators? How do fortifications stand up to D weapons?


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

I would imagine the same as a vehicle so *poof* smoking crater! tears galoor!


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Varakir said:


> That is a fuckton of points though - if you mean full squads that's like over 2k!


Well, yeah, but 50 sternguard and three ravens? No superheavy in the land would be safe :laugh:

At 3k, there'd be enough points left to get some troops in...just about 

I do like the bike/grav idea - that seems more sensible


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Gret79 said:


> I do like the bike/grav idea - that seems more sensible


3 squads clocks in at just under 500 points as well, and if you took a captain on a bike you could take even more bike squads as troops.

In conclusion:

White Scars > C'tan


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I'm happy to fight anyone and everyone who thinks they can beat a Ctan using the D-weapons at his disposal. I want to see that bastige taken down! 

As for buildings, they crumble and burn to D weapons, pending power fields.


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