# Applause for Aaron Dembski-Bowden. Savage Weapons SPOILERS!



## Lord Mephiston

I have read several short stories in both WHF & WH40k. But I must say, hats off to you, Mr. Bowden. k:

Savage Weapons is THE best short story published by Black Library in my opinion, and I've read alot of them. The story, characterization & dialogues are masterfully written.

The story has some extremely cool moments, such as the "friendly" conversation between two Night Lords honour guards & their I Legion counterparts :laugh:. 

And my favourite moment of the story has to be "Forgive me brother". Absolutely hilarious moment.

Also THE most important revelation for Dark Angel players :




The Lion is completely loyal to the Imperium. No fence-sitting here, folks. He cannot get to Terra on time simply due to the warp being faulty. 100 % confirmed, so you guys can breathe easy now :biggrin:




I give this short story 10/10. A brilliantly written story in an exceptionally good collection of short stories. 2nd best has to be Rules Of Engagement in my humble opinion. Graham Mcneil proves that he's the better Ultramarines writer than Nick Kyme. Very well written story.

I would really like Mr. Bowden to write the next Dark Angels HH book, continuing the story from Fallen Angels. I also have Blood Reaver, but am gonna start reading it now.

P.S. And the ending...


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## forkmaster

FUUUU (not directed at you)! I havent been able to pick up Blood Raver yet.  Neither Age of Darkness. Hopefully my local store will get them in sooner or later.


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## raider1987

God I want to click that spoiler. Where did you get the book?


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## Androxine Vortex

He is indeed a very talented author. The First Heretic was my favorite BL read


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## Lord Mephiston

raider1987 said:


> God I want to click that spoiler. Where did you get the book?


I preordered AOD, Blood Reaver & Caledor the moment they were avaliable for pre-order. Avaliable at www.blacklibrary.com . They arrived Friday evening.

And hey, dont worry too much about clicking the spoiler. It's NOT bad news for Dark Angels fans, I assure you 

I suck at being a reviewer, but am going to do my best to explain how Blood Reaver turns out. Need a day or two to finish it though. But I must say, when talking about cover art & presentation, I think that Soul Hunter's blue tint & glossy cover made that novel's cover look far better than BR. But lets not judge a book like this one by it's cover 

Giving away the prologue is OK IMO, so lets just say that Uzas ( my favorite character in ADB's NL series ) goes all Hannibal Lecter on a live Marine Errant...

P.S. Sorry forgot to add, read Rules Of Engagement, then you'll know why Graham Mcneil is still king of the Ultramarines.


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## gen.ahab

Just to note, the "revelation" about the Lion wasn't really much of a "revelation" since most people already knew that.

I am interested to see if this really is a 10/10. I very..... Very much doubt it, but, at this point, color me curious.


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## Lord Mephiston

gen.ahab said:


> Just to note, the "revelation" about the Lion wasn't really much of a "revelation" since most people already knew that.
> 
> I am interested to see if this really is a 10/10. I very..... Very much doubt it, but, at this point, color me curious.


If there is only one gripe about this story, it's that Curze's gift of foresight is a bit too powerful. So powerful that he can see beyond the WH40k universe & into the discussions that Dark Angel players have on forums about the Lion's loyalty :laugh:

But still very nicely done there by Mr. Bowden.


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## Lord of the Night

Lord Mephiston said:


> If there is only one gripe about this story, it's that Curze's gift of foresight is a bit too powerful. So powerful that he can see beyond the WH40k universe & into the discussions that Dark Angel players have on forums about the Lion's loyalty :laugh:.


True but considering that his powers caused horrible migraines and began to damage his sanity over the years, its really a trade-off. His powers are very strong, but they cause him a lot of harm in return. And they are involuntary, most lore shows that his visions came on without warning and he couldn't just call on this power when he chose.

Lord of the Night


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## Lord Mephiston

Lord of the Night said:


> True but considering that his powers caused horrible migraines and began to damage his sanity over the years, its really a trade-off. His powers are very strong, but they cause him a lot of harm in return. And they are involuntary, most lore shows that his visions came on without warning and he couldn't just call on this power when he chose.
> 
> Lord of the Night


That is correct, but no one in the 40k Universe other than a few of the high ranking Dark Angels in the 41st millenium may or may not have that doubt. Everyone else ( the citizens and the rest of the Marine chapters etc. ) regards him as a mythical hero of the Imperium.

But Curze was talking about US here. As in, we the people in REAL LIFE, not the citizens of the fictional WH40k universe lol.

But still, it's a nice touch, a fan-service I guess :biggrin:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lord Mephiston said:


> But Curze was talking about US here. As in, we the people in REAL LIFE, not the citizens of the fictional WH40k universe lol.
> 
> But still, it's a nice touch, a fan-service I guess :biggrin:


I can't really comment, not having read _Savage Weapons_ yet. But are you sure that is how it was intended?


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## Lord Mephiston

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I can't really comment, not having read _Savage Weapons_ yet. But are you sure that is how it was intended?


I can't say for sure, as I'm not the author, but I do believe that the way ADB wrote Curze's prediction, he intended it to be a joke at, or at least humour the discussions that we have about the Lion nowadays.

Because it's crystal clear that in the 40k universe, NO ONE apart from the fallen & the uppermost echelons of Dark Angel command ( not even the all-knowing inquisition!! ) has any doubts whatsoever on the Lion's loyalty. It's us in real life who are constantly debating wether he was loyal or a fence-sitter.

And that is precisely what Curze predicted. :shok:

But that pales in comparison to what follows in the next paragraph. :biggrin:


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## raider1987

Did you get them through the bl website?


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## increaso

Gav Thorpe wrote Angels of Darkness and threw in a bit at the end which suggested that the Lion was a fence sitter. He has stated that he didn't expect it to become such a huge thing. It is not a Lost Primarch thing and is, therefore, not something that was required to remain unknown.

The character who accused Johnson of being a fence sitter then appears in the HH novels and is importantly left behind on Caliban.

We then have the Age of Darkness preview vid in which ADB says 'crux of his story is whether the DAs were traitors or not'.



In ADB's short Curze says that the Lion will be remembered as a fence sitter. In reality he is just geographically displaced and therefore he can't help the loyalists at Terra.

In the first instance this can be read as simply 'smack talk' to wind up the Lion. However, Curze simply suggesting that the Lion could be perceived as a fence sitter strongly implies that he knew that the loyalists would win overall, especially when coupled with his vision in the Dark King (which is clearly of 41st Millennium rather than the HH). After all, if Night Haunter seriously thought the traitors would win the insult would be meaningless (the traitors didn't see the Lion as a fence sitter).

All that being said, I think Lord Mephiston, has a point. It is an acknowledgement of the forum moaning re: loyalty of DAs. 

I don't think Night Haunter woke up sweating, with visions of the Dark Angels all surrounding the Lion, pointing and shouting 'fence sitter!'. I think the Night Haunter's visions were more like the generic blurb at the front of the 40k books. 

Edit: The point about Astellen being left behind is important. Given the facts that we have there is no reason for us to believe that Astellen did not consider the Lion a fence sitter. The marines on Caliban didn't have a clue what was going on. Heresy breaks out. They hear that the Lion whacked Russ (one of the most loyal sons). They don't know what the DA fleet is up to and they arrive back at Caliban after the traitors have been defeated and having seemingly played no major role in the Heresy. No wonder the Calibinates thought they were traitors.





The story is a nice tale. I don't think it's the best short story I have ever read. The stories in that anthology are all of a good quality and they are enchanced by _revelation_.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lord Mephiston said:


> I can't say for sure, as I'm not the author, but I do believe that the way ADB wrote Curze's prediction, he intended it to be a joke at, or at least humour the discussions that we have about the Lion nowadays.
> 
> Because it's crystal clear that in the 40k universe, NO ONE apart from the fallen & the uppermost echelons of Dark Angel command ( not even the all-knowing inquisition!! ) has any doubts whatsoever on the Lion's loyalty. It's us in real life who are constantly debating wether he was loyal or a fence-sitter.
> 
> And that is precisely what Curze predicted. :shok:
> 
> But that pales in comparison to what follows in the next paragraph. :biggrin:


Fair one. I guess i'll wait til I get to it and see how its worded. 



raider1987 said:


> Did you get them through the bl website?


Yes. Pre-ordering through the BL website costs you more, but you get it 3 or 4 weeks in advance of release date.


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## Lord of the Night

Hm..




If all that is right about the Lion merely being geographically displaced and he really had no intentions of joining Horus, that makes it all the more tragic and sadder and all because of something that happens a lot in 40k, incorrect perception.

The Fallen were wrong and right. They rebelled because of what they saw but what they saw was what they thought they saw, they didn't understand the whole picture and because of that a world died, a Primarch was rendered comatose and the Dark Angels legion died forever, and a much darker chapter took their place, basing their mission on myths and taking cruel revenge on those who don't deserve it.

If the Fallen had waited a little longer and gotten the whole story they might have never rebelled. The Dark Angels would have retained their noble knight mentality and become one of the most reliable chapters in the Imperium, rather than the obsessed, secretive monks they have turned into.

And this adds Lion El'Jonson to a small list that I have. The Primarchs who would be sickened by what their legions became. The Lion and Sanguinius, at least in my view, would be horrified by their legions having become unpredictable torturers and dying cursed warriors, respectively.



Lord of the Night


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## TRU3 CHAOS

The Dark Angels being loyalists... how sentimental. It touches me. It truly does. [Saracasam]

Kind of dissapointed really. I thought BL would have eventually turned the traitor corner for the Lion. But I suppose the idea was still over the top. Even despite it being an idea turning the corners for some years.

The way I think of it, what better idea than to arouse the whole 40k fan base. Especially those who flip out and go ape shit on the forums. Blah blah blah, there's no evidence of the Lion being traitor even though there's a whole book. Blah blah blah, _Age of Darkness_ was bullshit, and all that other crap. I thought it was hilarious. 

But oh well I guess. I guess opened presents are suppose to be ruined.


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## demonictalkin56

spoiler for fallen angels


























havent actually read age of darkness yet so it's def something to look forward to. Even now as you say the speculation has been put to rest I still think that the Lion was a dick playing politics in the middle of an armed insurrection in Fallen Angels (end of book)


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

demonictalkin56 said:


> I still think that the Lion was a dick playing politics in the middle of an armed insurrection in Fallen Angels (end of book)


Theres no better time to play politics...


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## raider1987

So is it too late to order it now online from BL and get it early?


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## Lord Mephiston

raider1987 said:


> So is it too late to order it now online from BL and get it early?


Nope, it's still avaliable for order, you can order now & get it within 3-4 days.

All new stuff can be found at http://www.blacklibrary.com/new-titles

Oh, another thing. 

No matter how much Curze denies being a slave of Chaos & using it only as a tool, it's clear that he has been mutated by it. Of course, the mutations are more subtle than say, growing a few more arms or becoming a huge Daemon prince with horns etc., but the physical changes are clearly visible according to how ADB describes them.

Even Lion's shocked to see the changes in his brother's physical appearance.


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## sonn

Does anyone know if ordering from the Games Workshop website would also result in getting the book early?


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## forkmaster

From descriptions Ive heard about Curze is that he resembled bestial corruption and stuff like that so Im not surprised if the Warp had anything to do with it. ^^


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## increaso

I think 40k fluff is a better place for this discussion, but I see two different and separate elements to Curze.

He has these Chaos induced visions of the future, which show Astartes fighting Astartes and the Imperium in shit. He doesn't understand these visions and without the support of his brother Primarchs they drive him mad.

He also has a certain view of the world. He believes that people will only do what they are supposed to do if they face severe punishment in the face of rebellion. This view is not shared by the other Primarchs or the Emperor. When Curze allows M'Shen to kill him he says 'I am vindicated', because he has proven that the Imperium survives on exactly the same principle as those that he holds 'control through fear of punishment'.


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## Phoebus

Wait, what if I pre-order those books in e-book format? Does that mean I get them today?


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## Phoebus

The answer to that question is: available on April 22. Which sucks, since I'll be in the Mojave desert and away from internet between the 12th and May 6 (which means I could have just ordered them when I got back... crap).


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## gen.ahab

Phoebus said:


> Mojave desert and away from internet between the 12th and May 6 (which means I could have just ordered them when I got back... crap).


Military or just going to the US version of hell for fun?


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## Phoebus

Military...


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## Lord Mephiston

Page 255 in Blood Reaver, lets just say thatADB describes in detail the ominous fate of the galaxy. 255-259, my favorite moment of Blood Reaver...


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## Phoebus

When did you order these books? And when did they get to you? And did they get shipped to the UK, the US, or somewhere else?


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## Lord Mephiston

pre-ordered them last week. About 1 week ago, the very same day these were made avaliable for pre-order, as I had a reminder set on the website. Got them in 4 working days. Order from Blacklibrary.com, not any other site & you'll get them early. And dont forget to choose UPS priority as your preferred option of courier, if you want it early !!!

Oh, and I just finished Blood Reaver. I give it an 8.5/10. Excellent read. One gripe I have with ADB's series is that he has 'humanised' the Traitor Legions, just a bit, in my opinion. I miss the old-school traitor legions from Storm Of Iron & especially Anthony Reynolds' Word Bearer trilogy.

Lucoryphus is cool, and VII Legion gets a new Apothcary, Variel, who's ex-Red Corsairs.

Spoilers ahead for those who want to know :





We can kiss goodbye to The Exalted, Attramentar & the Covenant Of Blood. And Malcharion's still alive !

The next ( and maybe final ) novel will see everyone dead at the hands of Craftworld Ulthwe. Talos foresees this clearly.

And Lufgt Huron is a total bad-ass. Second only to the old-timers like Kharn & Abaddon IMO.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

Lord Mephiston said:


> Oh, and I just finished Blood Reaver. I give it an 8.5/10. Excellent read. One gripe I have with ADB's series is that he has 'humanised' the Traitor Legions, just a bit, in my opinion. I miss the old-school traitor legions from Storm Of Iron & especially Anthony Reynolds' Word Bearer trilogy.


Glad you dug. I'd disagree with this, personally. I think it's more that we see a lot more of these Chaos Marines when they're not fighting or scheming, which is a crucial difference to what came before in other novels. 

Chaos Marines aren't human, but humanity is still written into their source code, if you will. They were human once, and they're still a victim to the indoctrination-scarred, overcharged emotions of so many centuries of harrowing war. They still see things as altered humans do, because that's what they are. They're not quite post-human in the truest science-fiction terminology, but they're not human, either. They're altered, and a little (read: a lot) broken.

So while First Claw slaughters innocent people, skins their enemies, practice abduction and slavery on a huge scale, butcher their own servants, betray their allies on a whim, and ultimately do everything and anything to have their own way, they're not doing it from human mindsets - they're doing it as living weapons that still have somewhat human emotions and flawed human reactions. 

Seeing them in their cold, cooling-off periods is what sets them apart from the way we've seen Chaos Marines before. Going deep into those quiet moments away from the battlefield, and looking into just _why_ they hate the Imperium so much.

So I wouldn't consider it humanising them. There's just a lot more to their thoughts and behaviour than violence and scheming (when they're away from the Eye of Terror, anyway) and they operate from a scarred, broken template of human emotion.


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## raider1987

Age of darkness I am looking forward too... but its Blood Reaver that really has me excited. ADB's books so far, have all been excellent. The first Heretic in my opinion is the best in the Horus Heresy, Helsreach is the best in the Space marine Battle series although I have yet to read The Fall of Damnos, Cadian Blood is the best IG novel I have read (although I haven't read any gaunts ghosts, yet) Throne of lies was also the best audio book I have herd, although I wish they would be longer.

I think soul hunter was the first 40k novel I read outside the Horus Heresy, and even though I have read about 20 books since, I still remember everything about the book and I can't wait to find out what happens next.

I liked how he humanised the Night Lords, and then when they did something terrible and horrible, it seemed all that more shocking. Like you just made a new friend, that you knew had a history but didn't want to believe it, but then you saw him brutally torture someone to insanity. Really awesome characters and I can't wait for it.

I am glad that he didn't take the Ben Counter rout in Battle for the Abyss, where the Chaos Marines were one dimensional cartoon villains. You could almost imagine them stroking a cat the entire way through that book.


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## unxpekted22

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Glad you dug. I'd disagree with this, personally. I think it's more that we see a lot more of these Chaos Marines when they're not fighting or scheming, which is a crucial difference to what came before in other novels.
> 
> Chaos Marines aren't human, but humanity is still written into their source code, if you will. They were human once, and they're still a victim to the indoctrination-scarred, overcharged emotions of so many centuries of harrowing war. They still see things as altered humans do, because that's what they are. They're not quite post-human in the truest science-fiction terminology, but they're not human, either. They're altered, and a little (read: a lot) broken.
> 
> So while First Claw slaughters innocent people, skins their enemies, practice abduction and slavery on a huge scale, butcher their own servants, betray their allies on a whim, and ultimately do everything and anything to have their own way, they're not doing it from human mindsets - they're doing it as living weapons that still have somewhat human emotions and flawed human reactions.
> 
> Seeing them in their cold, cooling-off periods is what sets them apart from the way we've seen Chaos Marines before. Going deep into those quiet moments away from the battlefield, and looking into just _why_ they hate the Imperium so much.
> 
> So I wouldn't consider it humanising them. There's just a lot more to their thoughts and behaviour than violence and scheming (when they're away from the Eye of Terror, anyway) and they operate from a scarred, broken template of human emotion.


I try and I practice for fun, but I really wish I could control the english that well. Even just that post was really interesting to read :laugh:
I feel like a suck up...

Need to get my hands on helsreach still. I have faith you treated my Black Templars with the respect they deserve ADB! I have purposefully stayed away from any threads that may be on here about it.


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## demonictalkin56

Damn being in Germany; as soon as I return to blighty I am buying both aod and blood reaver and locking myself in my living room with a bottle of whiskey and a reading lamp lol!

Most anticipated book so far this year!


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## Lord Mephiston

unxpekted22 said:


> I try and I practice for fun, but I really wish I could control the english that well. Even just that post was really interesting to read :laugh:
> I feel like a suck up...
> 
> Need to get my hands on helsreach still. I have faith you treated my Black Templars with the respect they deserve ADB! I have purposefully stayed away from any threads that may be on here about it.


Helsreach was great. I'd give it 9/10. Just as good as, if not better than Rynn's World, which in my opinion is the best Battles book till now.

It's unique, as it's the only BL book I've read that gives a 1st-person viewpoint of a Space Marine, let alone one such as Chaplain Grimaldus!

Also, Black Templars Omnibus can be ordered via print-on-demand frm the BL website.

I must ask, Monjour Bowden, don't you see resemblances between Variel's character & that of a Dark Eldar Haemonculus ? Did you have that in mind when you created Variel ? Or did he just turn out to be like that ?

Also, I must add, I did not expect Uzas to be given this much 'screen time' & have his personality fleshed out like it was. Which was a welcome addition. Because if you look at Khorne Berzerkers who've been featured in BL books, then Uzas is a far more interesting character than Khalaxis, the Berserker from the Word Bearer series.

P.S. Have you ever considered writing a Warhammer novel ? A Warhammer Heroes story about Archaon or Valten written by you would be great, in my opinion.


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## Phoebus

unxpekted22,

I hate the Black Templars--but I loved "Helsreach". I can't recommend it enough. To put it in perspective with "Soul Hunter", I don't think the author "humanizes" Talos or his fellow Night Lords--I think (A) he puts them into context, and (B) is skilled enough to convey their emotions, ethos, fears, and ambitions as necessary. In other words, he is able to successfully take you beyond the battlefield stereotype of the Chaos Space Marine (sound bites, battle-rages, etc.).

"Helsreach" performs the same service for a Black Templars Chaplain, something that eight or nine months ago I would have considered unfeasible--to put it lightly.

Lord Mephiston,

With respect to your opinion and tastes, "Helsreach" was everything I wished "Rynn's World" (to say nothing of "Purging of Kadillus" and "Hunt for Voldorius") had been. Its setup was fine and there was certainly action to be had... but I felt it lacked character development, conflict outside of the battlefield, etc.

Cheers,
P.


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## ckcrawford

I just read _Savage Weapons_, I thought the ending was interesting. Konrad Curze skill in close combat surprises me again.



Where the Lion states there is another who thinks they are the heir to Terra. I thought it was interesting, that the title of the new Warmaster is still being played out despite all that is happening. I wonder if Guilliman was planning on ruling the Imperium ever since Horus became a traitor


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## Lord Mephiston

ckcrawford said:


> I just read _Savage Weapons_, I thought the ending was interesting. Konrad Curze skill in close combat surprises me again.
> 
> 
> 
> Where the Lion states there is another who thinks they are the heir to Terra. I thought it was interesting, that the title of the new Warmaster is still being played out despite all that is happening. I wonder if Guilliman was planning on ruling the Imperium ever since Horus became a traitor






That might have happened but did not, due to the 2nd founding. Guilliman might have had a hidden ambition, but it was overtaken by his desire to see the Imperium survive, with or without him as leader, it didn't matter. Only the survival of the Imperium did. That was why he wrote the Codex & let the 2nd founding happen. Rules Of Engagement reveals alot about Guilliman's way of thinking.

Guilliman's intentions are pure. He would never fall to chaos, nor does he want to replace his father. Its simply the same bit of ambition that every primarch had about being Warmaster before the Heresy. The same ambition that Lion showed when he gave Perturabo the siege weapons at the end of Fallen Angels




About Kurze's fighting skills, it dosent seem to me that it's all his training & genetic primarch strength. It also has alot to do with Curze's corruption by the warp, IMO. The physical changes are clear to see. That might be part of the mutation ?

Also, I think had Russ been fighting Kurze, or Sanguinius even, he wouls not have managed to gain an upper hand in the brawl like he did with Lion.

Or thats just me being biased, as I think Sanguinius, Russ & Angron were the best hand-to-hand fighters among them all :biggrin:


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## MontytheMighty

can anyone pm me or give a spoiler about just how the fight went?

I'm a DA fan, and it's starting to sound like Lion got beaten up in a fist fight...


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## Lord Mephiston

MontytheMighty said:


> can anyone pm me or give a spoiler about just how the fight went?
> 
> I'm a DA fan, and it's starting to sound like Lion got beaten up in a fist fight...


In this case it was more about warped strength + fighting STYLE (dirty close up brawling in the streets ) that led curze have an advantage later. But Lion sure made him pay for every blow in kind. Had Kurze's strength not been augmented, I reckon it would have been a draw, or Lion's superior swprdsmanship would have got the better of him.

Russ & Angron seem to be tailor-made in terms of strength & fighting style to beat a guy like Curze IMO. THey might have won had they fought Curze instead of Lion.


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## NIKT208

Analysing the Primarch's fighting style is never an easy task, as they are all to an extent individual. Some may be stronger than others (Russ, Angron), and some maybe more skilled (Sanguinius, Fulgrim), whilst the majority will be well rounded (Horus, Guilliman, Dorn etc). 

In the end this a moot point, as not all the Primarchs were designed/have the characteristics for hand to hand superiority. ADB touched on this in The First Heretic, when Lorgar proclaimed he was more a philosopher than a warrior. The Primarchs mentioned above are clearly bred for war (Russ, Angron, Corax,


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## raider1987

I just finished Blood Reaver and loved it... I think I preferred Soul Hunter but it was still an incredible book and the night lords series for me is shaping up to de throne Dan Abnetts Inquesition Series (eisenhorn/ravenor) off the top spot. It put me on the verge of tears 

Aaron you bastard why did you have to kill hound?!
 I really cant for void stalker. Anyway onto Age of darkness now


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## NIKT208

Analysing the Primarch's fighting style is never an easy task, as they are all to an extent individual. Some may be stronger than others (Russ, Angron), some maybe more skilled (Sanguinius, Fulgrim), whilst the majority will be well rounded (Horus, Guilliman, Dorn etc). By claiming that Angron/Russ would win in a fight against Curze, your assuming that it would be a fair fight, something the Night Lords tend not to engage in (see Blood Reaver). Each Primarch would play to their strengths, for Curze, that would be the element of surprise (hence the beating he gave to Dorn, who would probably have won a fair fight!!). Some of the Primarchs tend to shy away from hand to hand combat all together e.g. Perturabo, Alpharius/Omegon, but that doesnt mean they would lose a fight, especially if it was on their terms. 

In the end this a moot point, as not all the Primarchs were even designed/have the characteristics for hand to hand superiority. ADB touched on this in The First Heretic, when Lorgar proclaimed he was more a philosopher than a warrior. Some of the Primarchs mentioned above are clearly bred for war (Russ, Angron, Corax, Sanguinius), whilst others were more suited for other tasks e.g. Lorgar, Alpharius. This makes comparing like for like especially difficult.


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## Sacred Feth

raider1987 said:


> Aaron you bastard why did you have to kill hound?!


I know, I became quite fond of him too 

Definitely an awesome book and distinctly different from the first. I also really like Uzas now, in _Soul Hunter_ his Khornate outbursts were often comedic but in the new book he comes across as very tragic and I felt sorry for him. I'm glad his background was expanded upon.


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## Phoebus

Lord Mephiston said:


> Russ & Angron seem to be tailor-made in terms of strength & fighting style to beat a guy like Curze IMO. THey might have won had they fought Curze instead of Lion.


I don't see how that would be the case for Russ, since he couldn't beat the Lion to begin with... :wink:

Cheers,
P.


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## gen.ahab

Phoebus said:


> I don't see how that would be the case for Russ, since he couldn't beat the Lion to begin with... :wink:
> 
> Cheers,
> P.


To be honest, I doubt he was really trying that hard. Also, a sucker punch can take most guys down. I have seen little dudes bring down 250+ pound behemoths with a lucky punch. 

Also, :ireful2::ireful2::ireful2::threaten::angry: :aggressive: :headbutt:


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## ckcrawford

I agree. Russ could take down that big bastard Magnus, I think he could take down the Lion. 

I think the Lion was more into the honorable style of dueling. I think thats why Konrad Curze was able to defeat him. Also the fact he's a tough bastard.


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## Roninman

Speculating who can beat who is never gonna go nowhere. Put two almost equally talented guys against each other for several matches and i can guarentee that both will win. 

Fight has million variables you cannot never know what is gonna happen even if there is some "crowd" favourite guy involved.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

I don't really think it's ever as simple as someone just beating the other guy. In primarch battles, it's usually an exchange of who has the upper hand in that moment. I mean, I wrote the fight between Curze and the Lion, and I don't really see it as particularly one-sided or a foregone conclusion. I know it's tempting for fans to want to rank these things and make an order out of what character/faction is the "best" at X, Y or Z, but you're fighting a losing battle, I reckon. The universe doesn't work that way, and the writers aren't writing it that way.


----------



## ckcrawford

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I don't really think it's ever as simple as someone just beating the other guy. In primarch battles, it's usually an exchange of who has the upper hand in that moment. I mean, I wrote the fight between Curze and the Lion, and I don't really see it as particularly one-sided or a foregone conclusion. I know it's tempting for fans to want to rank these things and make an order out of what character/faction is the "best" at X, Y or Z, but you're fighting a losing battle, I reckon. The universe doesn't work that way, and the writers aren't writing it that way.


I did enjoy how you wrote about the two Primarch's styles in fighting. At first I was thinking maybe the Lion had the upper hand because he was more talented with the blade. You could definitely tell though that Konrad Curze, even though not equally talented had his own set of skills that the Lion was not use to. 

I once saw a wrestler beat the living shit of a boxer. He was getting chewed up at first. But when I was reading this scene, it reminded a bit of how the fight went. Obviously two different fights, but its always interesting seeing two different sets of skills going at one another.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

ckcrawford said:


> I did enjoy how you wrote about the two Primarch's styles in fighting. At first I was thinking maybe the Lion had the upper hand because he was more talented with the blade. You could definitely tell though that Konrad Curze, even though not equally talented had his own set of skills that the Lion was not use to.
> 
> I once saw a wrestler beat the living shit of a boxer. He was getting chewed up at first. But when I was reading this scene, it reminded a bit of how the fight went. Obviously two different fights, but its always interesting seeing two different sets of skills going at one another.


Oooh, cool comparison.


----------



## Lord Mephiston

Sorry for this off-topic question but, have you ever considered writing Warhammer Fantasy, ADB ? 

I'm quite interested in seeing what you can do with Chaos Warriors/Champions, like Archaon, Crom etc. after reading your Night Lords books...


----------



## mal310

Lord Mephiston said:


> And hey, dont worry too much about clicking the spoiler. It's NOT bad news for Dark Angels fans, I assure you
> 
> 
> But Curze was talking about US here. As in, we the people in REAL LIFE, not the citizens of the fictional WH40k universe lol.


I don’t really see how you get that interpretation at all! As for good news for Dark Angels fans I think that’s an incredibly simplistic view to take. I’m not a ‘fan’ of any particular Legion, I just like good stories. 

I for one am disappointed that they did not make the Lion a fence sitter. IMO I thought that pursuing that story ark would be more interesting and provide more varairty to the overall setting. He’s now just another loyal Primarch, we have plenty of them already. I’m disappointed as I think it’s a bit boring and I had hoped they would have taken a ‘braver’ more shocking stance on the Lion. 

That’s not to say I didn’t enjoy Savage Weapons. ADB is a fantastic writer; I believe the best BL has by a country mile. I love his work. However there were a couple of things that he’s stated on Forum’s etc that I disagreed with. The first was this surrounding the Lion’s loyalty. I feared he would settle this and it’s come to pass. Booooo. 

The other thing (and I can’t remember where I read it, and I hope I’m wrong) was that he would not write the Alpha Legion as Loyalists. Please ABD don’t make the 20th Legion another boring traitor Legion (if you ever write about them). The fact they may still be loyal working undercover in a lonely secret battle against Chaos is the best twist that has ever been thrown up IMO and I would love to see that one run (BTW I loved the Alpharius bit in the snippet from the upcoming novella). 

Having said all that, I do hope that ADB gets to clean up the whole Dark Angel mess at some point. I like how he threw in a mention of Astelan, hopefully someone he may write about in the future (fingers crossed).


----------



## MontytheMighty

NIKT208 said:


> Each Primarch would play to their strengths, for Curze, that would be the element of surprise (hence the beating he gave to Dorn, who would probably have won a fair fight!!)


While I do agree that Curze's style was all about fighting _unfairly_ (Curze was from a planet where crime was rampant, and if you've ever seen a prison documentary, you'd know that criminals never fight "honorably"), I don't think he planned to jump Dorn

In the story, he went crazy while Dorn was yelling in his face...Curze later has no memory of what he did, the last thing he remembered was the verbal confrontation 

That said, I can't wait to read Age of Darkness and judge for myself just how the fight went between the Lion and Curze


----------



## gen.ahab

My guess would be it devolved into a brawl and Jonson lost.


----------



## Moriar the Forsaken

I'm a big fan of the HH Dark Angels too but it seems as though the second author was not given much to work with, apart from setting up a few key points and writing out a battle or so.

Quite a shame that after Mike Lee set the scene with so much intrigue and subtleties the Dark Angels seem to be abandoned.

In my opinion the Dark Angels are the epitome of plots, secrecy, guilt and shame. 

Simon Spurrier or gav Thorpe should write the next one! 



Lord Mephiston said:


> I have read several short stories in both WHF & WH40k. But I must say, hats off to you, Mr. Bowden. k:
> 
> Savage Weapons is THE best short story published by Black Library in my opinion, and I've read alot of them. The story, characterization & dialogues are masterfully written.
> 
> The story has some extremely cool moments, such as the "friendly" conversation between two Night Lords honour guards & their I Legion counterparts :laugh:.
> 
> And my favourite moment of the story has to be "Forgive me brother". Absolutely hilarious moment.
> 
> Also THE most important revelation for Dark Angel players :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Lion is completely loyal to the Imperium. No fence-sitting here, folks. He cannot get to Terra on time simply due to the warp being faulty. 100 % confirmed, so you guys can breathe easy now :biggrin:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I give this short story 10/10. A brilliantly written story in an exceptionally good collection of short stories. 2nd best has to be Rules Of Engagement in my humble opinion. Graham Mcneil proves that he's the better Ultramarines writer than Nick Kyme. Very well written story.
> 
> I would really like Mr. Bowden to write the next Dark Angels HH book, continuing the story from Fallen Angels. I also have Blood Reaver, but am gonna start reading it now.
> 
> P.S. And the ending...


----------



## Moriar the Forsaken

forkmaster said:


> From descriptions Ive heard about Curze is that he resembled bestial corruption and stuff like that so Im not surprised if the Warp had anything to do with it. ^^


From what I've read in Lord of Night and Soul Hunter his mind was definitely far sicker than his body, lol.

*cough* Tsagualsa *cough*


----------



## Lord Mephiston

@gen. ahab : Yeah thats what basically happened...

@Moriar : Unfortunately it seems that Mr.Spurrier is done with Black Library for good. He won't be writing any more books. Lord Of The Night was his last book for BL.


----------



## Moriar the Forsaken

Lord Mephiston said:


> @gen. ahab : Yeah thats what basically happened...
> 
> @Moriar : Unfortunately it seems that Mr.Spurrier is done with Black Library for good. He won't be writing any more books. Lord Of The Night was his last book for BL.


That's terrible. What happened. 8(


----------



## Lord Mephiston

Moriar the Forsaken said:


> That's terrible. What happened. 8(


Well it seems that his contract with BL is over. Don't know the details though...


----------



## Moriar the Forsaken

What a shame. Oh well. 8(


----------



## raider1987

I am one of a vast minority that really enjoyed the Dark Angels Heresy novels. And I was really looking forward to the next one, but then if any author was to be given the next book I would LOVE it to be ADB. So far, sorry to sound like a dribbling fanboy, but everything he has written has rocked my freaking socks off. In my opinion TFH is the best Heresy novel, Helsreach is the best Space marine battle novel (and in my opinion the best loyalist space marine book I have read) and Cadian blood is the best IG novel I have come across, and his night lords series is replacing Eisenhor/Ravenor as my most loved series.


----------



## Mob

Moriar the Forsaken said:


> Quite a shame that after Mike Lee set the scene with so much intrigue and subtleties the Dark Angels seem to be abandoned.
> 
> In my opinion the Dark Angels are the epitome of plots, secrecy, guilt and shame.
> 
> Simon Spurrier or gav Thorpe should write the next one!


HH poison chalice for anyone but Gav, aren't they? 

The first one is pretty divisive, is basically pretty bloody weird in conception and execution and scuppered Scanlon's HH contributions.
The second one is a pretty average BL novel IMHO, and has errors in it that detract from both the experience (the stupid 'old' BL errors that a proof-reader should catch - and that don't seem to happen anymore I should add) and the logic of the Dark Angels meta-story enough that I, regretfully, don't think Mr Lee should follow up on it, and I don't think I'm alone in that position.

And then ADB - who I recall posted an _amazing_ short deconstruction of the Dark Angels legion archetype online somewhere that had me (and loads of us I'm sure) going "f*ck yeah this guy _gets_ this stuff and makes it even cooler than I imagine it" does an exemplary HH short that does more for the Dark Angels concept in 40 pages than was done in the other two novels...and gets grief enough from some readers to make him state that he'd back away from doing them again. Sheesh.

The only thing no-one bitched about was Gav's short. So...looks like BL have to get Gav on the Dark Angels, not only because one assumes he'd get their meta-story right, but because no-one else is going to be allowed to get away with it, apparently.


----------



## Moriar the Forsaken

Doh, I got the authors mixed up. I mean that I like Mr Scanlon's work in Descent of Angels.

I don't think it was bad at all, in fact I enjoyed it. I was hoping for something very chilling in the next book, but yeah, the second one was rather ordinary.

Would you have a link to Aaron's deconstruction of the Dark Angels and the name of his short story, as well as to the fans discussion?

Also Gav's one. I would like to compare.



Mob said:


> HH poison chalice for anyone but Gav, aren't they?
> 
> The first one is pretty divisive, is basically pretty bloody weird in conception and execution and scuppered Scanlon's HH contributions.
> The second one is a pretty average BL novel IMHO, and has errors in it that detract from both the experience (the stupid 'old' BL errors that a proof-reader should catch - and that don't seem to happen anymore I should add) and the logic of the Dark Angels meta-story enough that I, regretfully, don't think Mr Lee should follow up on it, and I don't think I'm alone in that position.
> 
> And then ADB - who I recall posted an _amazing_ short deconstruction of the Dark Angels legion archetype online somewhere that had me (and loads of us I'm sure) going "f*ck yeah this guy _gets_ this stuff and makes it even cooler than I imagine it" does an exemplary HH short that does more for the Dark Angels concept in 40 pages than was done in the other two novels...and gets grief enough from some readers to make him state that he'd back away from doing them again. Sheesh.
> 
> The only thing no-one bitched about was Gav's short. So...looks like BL have to get Gav on the Dark Angels, not only because one assumes he'd get their meta-story right, but because no-one else is going to be allowed to get away with it, apparently.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Mob said:


> HH poison chalice for anyone but Gav, aren't they?
> 
> The first one is pretty divisive, is basically pretty bloody weird in conception and execution and scuppered Scanlon's HH contributions.
> The second one is a pretty average BL novel IMHO, and has errors in it that detract from both the experience (the stupid 'old' BL errors that a proof-reader should catch - and that don't seem to happen anymore I should add) and the logic of the Dark Angels meta-story enough that I, regretfully, don't think Mr Lee should follow up on it, and I don't think I'm alone in that position.
> 
> And then ADB - who I recall posted an _amazing_ short deconstruction of the Dark Angels legion archetype online somewhere that had me (and loads of us I'm sure) going "f*ck yeah this guy _gets_ this stuff and makes it even cooler than I imagine it" does an exemplary HH short that does more for the Dark Angels concept in 40 pages than was done in the other two novels...and gets grief enough from some readers to make him state that he'd back away from doing them again. Sheesh.
> 
> The only thing no-one bitched about was Gav's short. So...looks like BL have to get Gav on the Dark Angels, not only because one assumes he'd get their meta-story right, but because no-one else is going to be allowed to get away with it, apparently.


Not quite. I got grief from, like 2 guys who hadn't even read it yet, and were going from a vague and fairly inaccurate synopsis. 

As far as feedback from Dark Angels fans goes, most of what I've seen is (thankfully) "This is the best Dark Angel fiction ever."

My schedule is crammed for the next 2 years. That's the only reason I'm not slavering to do the Dark Angels immediately.

EDIT: That's a lie. I'm also a bit scared, since they'd be fighting the Night Lords, and I do hate that "HE LOVES THE NIGHT LORDS SO THEY ALWAYS WIN" nonsense.


----------



## Serpion5

:shok: Didn`t realize ADB was a member on Heresy... :blush: 

Anyhows, I`m not up to speed on this latest offering so I won`t look too much, but I will congratulate Sir Bowden on his works. I am thoroughly enjoying your style Sir, _First Heretic_ is definitely a fave of mine. :good:

EDIT: Sorry for looking like a fanboy noob, I`m really not, honest!


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Serpion5 said:


> :shok: Didn`t realize ADB was a member on Heresy... :blush:


Where have you been for the last year or so?


----------



## Serpion5

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Where have you been for the last year or so?


Apparently everywhere on the forum but here. :laugh:


----------



## Lord Mephiston

I did get this little inkling that had Gav Thorpe or Mike Lee written Savage Weapons, Lion would have emerged the victor in the duel in decisive fashion 

But oh well, still a great story :biggrin:


----------



## raider1987

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> EDIT: That's a lie. I'm also a bit scared, since they'd be fighting the Night Lords, and I do hate that "HE LOVES THE NIGHT LORDS SO THEY ALWAYS WIN" nonsense.


Agreed that is crap, considering in your novels they escape at best, and barley come out with there head above water.


----------



## MontytheMighty

I just read Savage Weapons and I'd say the characterization of the Lion and the Dark Angels was very, very good. The banter with the two Night Lords huscarls was also well done. 

but seriously, Curze is one resilient motherfucker 


someone mentioned that Curze probably had Warp-enhanced strength. perhaps, but I think you could definitely argue that Curze had Warp-enhanced toughness...he gets impaled through the stomach and through the spine and he still fights effectively. 

Oh yeah, and the Lion is one cocky son of a bitch in battle. I don't get why he didn't slice his blade up after impaling Curze (like what Corax did to Lorgar). Maybe he was too confident that he would win?


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Is Age of Darkness out of now? I thought it didn't come out till May?


----------



## Lord Mephiston

MontytheMighty said:


> I just read Savage Weapons and I'd say the characterization of the Lion and the Dark Angels was very, very good. The banter with the two Night Lords huscarls was also well done.
> 
> but seriously, Curze is one resilient motherfucker
> 
> 
> someone mentioned that Curze probably had Warp-enhanced strength. perhaps, but I think you could definitely argue that Curze had Warp-enhanced toughness...he gets impaled through the stomach and through the spine and he still fights effectively.
> 
> Oh yeah, and the Lion is one cocky son of a bitch in battle. I don't get why he didn't slice his blade up after impaling Curze (like what Corax did to Lorgar). Maybe he was too confident that he would win?


Extreme toughness & resilience. Body & face showing signs of decay ( looking more like a corpse than alive ), and generally gloomy nature ? 

Looks like Nurgle's affected Kurze more than any other chaos god, wether he knows it or not...


----------



## MontytheMighty

Lord Mephiston said:


> Extreme toughness & resilience. Body & face showing signs of decay ( looking more like a corpse than alive ), and generally gloomy nature ?
> 
> Looks like Nurgle's affected Kurze more than any other chaos god, wether he knows it or not...


yeah good call, I was wondering which Chaos god had gotten to Curze






> Chained skulls rattled against war plate etched with runic writing rejoicing in past massacres and celebrating atrocity against the empire of humanity.





> If the Night Lord had seemed cadaverous before, now he was practically exhumed. The primarch’s eyes, with what little white actually showed around the black pupils, were inhumanly bloodshot. His gaunt features were dusted with a faint sheen of cold sweat, and a trickle of dark blood ran from his nose. He wiped it away on the back of his gauntlet.





> Curze paused in his diatribe, wiping away a fresh trickle of blood.





> ‘I would ask you something in return, brother,’ Curze answered with a grin, his filed teeth on display. *The clawed primarch’s eyes were* *unhealthily bright, rich with a secret sickness*. ‘Why did you not?’



I think the last quote is most telling...Nurgle most likely. Mortarion and Curze also got along so maybe Mortarion had something to do with it?


----------



## Moriar the Forsaken

....

If yet another Primarch has to be "influenced" by Chaos in order to turn against the Emperor, that would mean taking cliche to new heights.

I thought that what made the 40k universe great was that the Emperor was quite an ambiguous figure for the reader, with hints of some very dark secrets kept hidden.

So has the decision been made to instead paint this Emperor as some kind of white-hat tragic hero instead?

Ugh.


----------



## increaso

Are the symptoms not all just biproducts of the madness brought on by the (chaos induced) visions, rather than signifiers of a particular god's involvement?


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

increaso said:


> Are the symptoms not all just biproducts of the madness brought on by the (chaos induced) visions, rather than signifiers of a particular god's involvement?


Pretty much. People can try to look too hard behind the curtain sometimes, or take a single adjective to mean some grand hint, rather than just taking it as descriptive prose. The 40K setting doesn't really play out according to the rulebooks. He looks like crap because he's a haunted, screwed-up, psychopathic, murdering madman on an endless crusade, fighting every single day, commanding massive armies against his own empire, while receiving visions of his own death from an unknowable source, and being - unarguably, in 20 years of lore - affected to some degree by the power of Chaos, whether he wants to admit it or not. He's probably not eating right, either. Curze isn't the kind of guy to get his 5 fruit-and-veg a day, and I doubt he gets his 8 hours of sleep a night.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I just finished the book and Savage Weapons was definitely my favourite of them, despite all of them being genuinely awesome.

Am I the only one who'd like to see a proper fight between Dorn and Curze? I don't know whether he truly loaths Dorn or he actually admire him in some weird fashion and that's why he takes his anger out on him, several times he mentioned him which just adds to why I love the relationship they have.

Shame I'm doing World Eaters and not Night Lords as this story has added to my love of them, I may get that book they have now also.

I think it could of been made into a stand alone novel just from the idea of the Lion confront Curze as well as the little bit at the end which seems to confirm my thoughts on the Ultramarines.

Another awesome book ADB, I dunno how you do it but every book I've read of yours, they just keep getting better and better.


----------



## MontytheMighty

well there you go, straight from the authour's mouth 

I guess he's just affected by general "Chaos power" to some degree and hasn't been singled out by a particular god, knowing Curze he probably wouldn't want to admit any Chaos taint 

I just thought Nurgle would probably gravitate to Curze because Nurgle's all about despair and Curze has no hope for the Imperium because of his prophetic visions 

Also, judging by how much his appearance had changed and how he went on about how Magnus and Lorgar had revealed the truth, I just assumed Chaos had strengthened its grip on him since it was implied Curze was once a nobler character. 



Moriar the Forsaken said:


> ....
> If yet another Primarch has to be "influenced" by Chaos in order to turn against the Emperor, that would mean taking cliche to new heights.
> I thought that what made the 40k universe great was that the Emperor was quite an ambiguous figure for the reader, with hints of some very dark secrets kept hidden.
> So has the decision been made to instead paint this Emperor as some kind of white-hat tragic hero instead?
> Ugh.


He's affected by Chaos, but that doesn't mean he rejected the Emperor because of Chaos. I'm pretty sure Chaos was just one of many factors. Of course, since this is 40K and Curze was a traitor primarch, he couldn't have remained untouched by Chaos.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Lord Mephiston said:


> In this case it was more about warped strength + fighting STYLE (dirty close up brawling in the streets ) that led curze have an advantage later. But Lion sure made him pay for every blow in kind. Had Kurze's strength not been augmented, I reckon it would have been a draw, or Lion's superior swprdsmanship would have got the better of him.
> 
> Russ & Angron seem to be tailor-made in terms of strength & fighting style to beat a guy like Curze IMO. THey might have won had they fought Curze instead of Lion.


*Below full of spoilers:
*


Pretty sure he wasn't empowered by Chaos.

He's just that insane. He owned Dorn in a similar fashion. He's a savage being, born and raised on a nightmare world run by vicious gangs.

The Lion was alone but then he was embraced into the fold of humanity. Curze never was, he was alone the whole way.

Russ? If the Angel fought him and neither won, then what makes you think Russ would pose a threat to Curze? Curze, once he stopped fighting the Lion with weapons due to his inferior swordsmanship, resorted to raw, pure aggression and totally dominated him in a brawler fashion. 

I think it's obvious now that the Wolf King wouldn't stand a chance. And Curze fought the Lion despite being impaled twice and having some of his vertebrate broken. 
And he was slowly killing the Lion despite having a ruptured stomach that was still healing before getting a sword stuck in his back, the distraction ultimately saving the Lion's life.

I loved the bit when the Lion mentioned their similar backgrounds. I just wish Curze had said something in regards to that.

My only question is, why was he constantly having nose bleeds while talking to El'Johnson? Did he predict the future, revealing it to the Lion during their walk?


----------



## Moriar the Forsaken

Finally read the story.

It was... acceptable. No earth-shaking ending to the story there.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Moriar the Forsaken said:


> No earth-shaking ending to the story there.


Was... was there supposed to be?

Shit, I wasn't told. I thought it was supposed to be the prologue to a long war, showing a little of what the two Legions were doing, and how they interacted. If I'd known earth-shaking endings and revelations were necessary...


----------



## Moriar the Forsaken

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Was... was there supposed to be?
> 
> Shit, I wasn't told. I thought it was supposed to be the prologue to a long war, showing a little of what the two Legions were doing, and how they interacted. If I'd known earth-shaking endings and revelations were necessary...


Hmmm, interesting perspective. 

I guess I like your writing enough to see the potential for earth-shaking endings and shocking plot twists. :grin:

I like my stories like I like my sex. HARD AND DEEP and ending with an earth-shattering climax. Very satisfying...


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Moriar the Forsaken said:


> Hmmm, interesting perspective.
> 
> I guess I like your writing enough to see the potential for earth-shaking endings and shocking plot twists. :grin:
> 
> I like my stories like I like my sex. HARD AND DEEP and ending with an earth-shattering climax. Very satisfying...


That's actually sort of genius. A creed to live by.

I shall muse upon this, most musingly.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I thought the interaction between the Primarchs was enough, especially since we've never really understood the Lion's relationship with his other brothers apart from Russ.


----------



## Lord Mephiston

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Was... was there supposed to be?
> 
> Shit, I wasn't told. I thought it was supposed to be the prologue to a long war, showing a little of what the two Legions were doing, and how they interacted. If I'd known earth-shaking endings and revelations were necessary...


The "forgive me brother" moment was worth buying the entire book for. It's very, very rare to see guys like Curze & Night Lords go "WTF just happened !? "...


----------



## demonictalkin56

My favourite bits of the Heresy books generally are the Primarch's interactions with each other; to have these mysterious, aloof beings cast into the light and see what petulant children they often are is outstanding. 

I do also like the Curze character; i totally understand the worldview although obviously its incredibly skewed but i can see the historical parallels. (i know i shouldnt think too much into it lol).
Shame he was ultimately a self-fulfilling prophecy really


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I really dunno if Curze does end up being killed by the Callidus, seems like a shity way, just like Dorn's supposed death.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Words_of_Truth said:


> I really dunno if Curze does end up being killed by the Callidus, seems like a shity way, just like Dorn's supposed death.


Yes, hes killed by M'shen. Don't re-start that whole _Lux_ diabocle. :grin:

And why do you think it was a shitty way to go? It represents Curze's twisted beliefs and ideologies; his strive for vindication.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Pretty sure he wasn't empowered by Chaos.


Probably not _"empowered"_ no. But _"touched"_, tainted or corrupted? Almost certainly.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Russ? If the Angel fought him and neither won, then what makes you think Russ would pose a threat to Curze? Curze, once he stopped fighting the Lion with weapons due to his inferior swordsmanship, resorted to raw, pure aggression and totally dominated him in a brawler fashion.


So-called _"triangle theories"_ almost never work. Just because the Lion knocked Russ unconscious, whilst his _'duel'_ with Curze was inconclusive does not mean that Curze would trump Russ.



Malus Darkblade said:


> I think it's obvious now that the Wolf King wouldn't stand a chance.


Russ would stand more much more than a chance...


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yes, hes killed by M'shen. Don't re-start that whole _Lux_ diabocle. :grin:
> 
> And why do you think it was a shitty way to go? It represents Curze's twisted beliefs and ideologies; his strive for vindication.


I know he did, I'm just willing it not to be because Curze is badass. I see the reason for it and I know it makes sense, but it's still a shitty way to die especially for a Primarch


----------



## D-A-C

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yes, hes killed by M'shen. Don't re-start that whole _Lux_ diabocle. :grin:
> 
> And why do you think it was a shitty way to go? It represents Curze's twisted beliefs and ideologies; his strive for vindication.


Hey if I dont see photos of him killed ... then I dont believe he is killed.




He is right though, what is death compared to vindication?


----------



## Malus Darkblade

It's there in black and white in Soul Hunter I think, M'shen talks about how the head she's holding in her hands takes a few minutes to stop bleeding, hinting at the uncanny biology of the Primarchs.




Words_of_Truth said:


> I know he did, I'm just willing it not to be because Curze is badass. I see the reason for it and I know it makes sense, but it's still a shitty way to die especially for a Primarch


I think it was a cool way of dying, and was a lot more dramatic then getting your head sliced off (Mannus), strangled (Sanguinius) or poisoned by a blade (Guilliman). And the fact that he chose the manner and time in which he died just goes to show how he cheated death in a sense.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Malus Darkblade said:


> It's there in black and white in Soul Hunter I think, M'shen talks about how the head she's holding in her hands takes a few minutes to stop bleeding, hinting at the uncanny biology of the Primarchs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it was a cool way of dying, and was a lot more dramatic then getting your head sliced off (Mannus), strangled (Sanguinius) or poisoned by a blade (Guilliman). And the fact that he chose the manner and time in which he died just goes to show how he cheated death in a sense.


But it was to an Assassin, I know that kind of adds to the point he was making, but not much once you could consider all he'd done. Imo a better way to go would of been to a Primarch who he let into his sanctum and let him strike him down, similar to the way he messed about with The Lion in Savage Weapons.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

A Primarch wouldn't be foolish enough to risk waltzing into an enemy's stronghold with the assumption that he could walk out unscathed.

Mshen got her limbs torn apart after thinking she was safe.


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## Words_of_Truth

Malus Darkblade said:


> A Primarch wouldn't be foolish enough to risk waltzing into an enemy's stronghold with the assumption that he could walk out unscathed.
> 
> Mshen got her limbs torn apart after thinking she was safe.


Don't spoil anything about the novels, I'm waiting for them to arrive 

Either way it depends, The Lion risked meeting with him, why not someone else. I think having Corax kill him would of been better tbh they seem to be a mirror of each other in a way.


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## Malus Darkblade

The Mshen bit is from Soul Hunter, an old novel.

The Lion met up with Kurze out in the open after making sure no traps were set in place and after he confirmed his brother was coming with only two of his men.

Even then he had a homing beacon strapped to him so he could escape if he had to.

And Corax is nothing compared to Kurze, he was sweating bullets in his attempt to overpower the Night Haunter who was giggling as he attempted to do so.


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## Words_of_Truth

Malus Darkblade said:


> The Mshen bit is from Soul Hunter, an old novel.
> 
> The Lion met up with Kurze out in the open after making sure no traps were set in place and after he confirmed his brother was coming with only two of his men.
> 
> Even then he had a homing beacon strapped to him so he could escape if he had to.
> 
> And Corax is nothing compared to Kurze, he was sweating bullets in his attempt to overpower the Night Haunter who was giggling as he attempted to do so.


Corax had been fighting for a fair while though against untold numbers and had just owned Lorgar, Curze was fresh as well as the fact he appears to have equal if not better regenerative abilities than Mortarion.

Corax can also turn practically invisible at will, an easy way to infiltrate anyone's fortress.

Yeah I'm waiting for Soul Hunter to arrive


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## Malus Darkblade

Words_of_Truth said:


> Corax had been fighting for a fair while though against untold numbers and had just owned Lorgar, Curze was fresh as well as the fact he appears to have equal if not better regenerative abilities than Mortarion.
> 
> Corax can also turn practically invisible at will, an easy way to infiltrate anyone's fortress.
> 
> Yeah I'm waiting for Soul Hunter to arrive


For a Primarch, slaughtering lesser Astartes is the equivalent of Astartes massacring normal humans.

Lorgar apparently barely pushed Corax at all.

And how do you know Kurze didn't cut his way through a ton of Raven Guard/Iron Hands/Salamanders/etc. to get to the two brothers?

All the Primarchs's regenerative abilities are presumably the same, their will to survive being another thing entirely. 

Where is it mentioned that Mortation was exceptional in this regard? 

The Death Guard are very resilient due to their alliance with Nurgle.

Ahh I see, you should read them in order.


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## Words_of_Truth

Malus Darkblade said:


> For a Primarch, slaughtering lesser Astartes is the equivalent of Astartes massacring normal humans.
> 
> Lorgar apparently barely pushed Corax at all.
> 
> And how do you know Kurze didn't cut his way through a ton of Raven Guard/Iron Hands/Salamanders/etc. to get to the two brothers?
> 
> All the Primarchs's regenerative abilities are presumably the same, their will to survive being another thing entirely.
> 
> Where is it mentioned that Mortation was exceptional in this regard?
> 
> The Death Guard are very resilient due to their alliance with Nurgle.
> 
> Ahh I see, you should read them in order.


Corax was jumping from the hardest fighting to another, shots deflecting him off him etc etc He was still in the fight a lot longer than Curze was, since he was fighting the original renegades before the traitors showed up.

Mortarion was exceptional since he lived on a poison world, he basically lived in and around poisons that would of killed a lesser man, I believe he was found on the top of a peak or something, I don't recall the full story mind you. He kept sniffing poison as well, it's what made him strong and he brought a lot of that practices to his legion. That's the reason Nurgle chose them, they where already resilient and he took great pleasure in corrupting them.

The reason I say Curze seemed to have strong regenerative abilities tho was the way he took a Primarch's sword to the stomach and a sword in the back and kept fighting etc etc as well as in other places people have mentioned it as well, I may be totally wrong tho.


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## Malus Darkblade

Words_of_Truth said:


> Corax was jumping from the hardest fighting to another, shots deflecting him off him etc etc He was still in the fight a lot longer than Curze was, since he was fighting the original renegades before the traitors showed up.


My Istaavan fluff is not that great but I don't see how Corax was there before the Night Haunter. Even so, Corax only jumped into the fray once shit hit the fan and he realized his men were getting butchered and needed serious help escaping.



Words_of_Truth said:


> Mortarion was exceptional since he lived on a poison world, he basically lived in and around poisons that would of killed a lesser man, I believe he was found on the top of a peak or something, I don't recall the full story mind you. He kept sniffing poison as well, it's what made him strong and he brought a lot of that practices to his legion. That's the reason Nurgle chose them, they where already resilient and he took great pleasure in corrupting them.


All the Primarchs most likely could have survived living on Barbarus and not even Mortatian was able to reach the top of the mountain fortress while the Emperor easily did so.

I don't think Mortarion was special in that he was able to survive poisons and toxins that his brothers could not, rather he just revolved his philosophy around constantly being immersed in a form of _death_. 

He pushed his followers perhaps harder than his brothers in terms of endurance and made them live up to their name as the Death Guard, relentless and unyielding.

Nurgle chose them because Typhos already followed him and yes it is most likely due to the Mortarion being wreathed in poison/toxins all the time. It just fits him story-wise.



Words_of_Truth said:


> The reason I say Curze seemed to have strong regenerative abilities tho was the way he took a Primarch's sword to the stomach and a sword in the back and kept fighting etc etc as well as in other places people have mentioned it as well, I may be totally wrong tho.


As I said, nothing has really been shown that one Primarch was more resilient than the other.

Lorgar had his guts disemboweled by a hot blade which I would wager is a lot more painful and damaging than having a blade stuck in the back or pushed through the stomach. And both the Primarchs were recovering and talking moments after their grievous injuries.

It's all about the willpower of the particular Primarch in question.


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## Words_of_Truth

Malus Darkblade said:


> My Istaavan fluff is not that great but I don't see how Corax was there before the Night Haunter. Even so, Corax only jumped into the fray once shit hit the fan and he realized his men were getting butchered and needed serious help escaping.
> 
> 
> 
> All the Primarchs most likely could have survived living on Barbarus and not even Mortatian was able to reach the top of the mountain fortress while the Emperor easily did so.
> 
> I don't think Mortarion was special in that he was able to survive poisons and toxins that his brothers could not, rather he just revolved his philosophy around constantly being immersed in a form of _death_.
> 
> He pushed his followers perhaps harder than his brothers in terms of endurance and made them live up to their name as the Death Guard, relentless and unyielding.
> 
> Nurgle chose them because Typhos already followed him and yes it is most likely due to the Mortarion being wreathed in poison/toxins all the time. It just fits him story-wise.
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, nothing has really been shown that one Primarch was more resilient than the other.
> 
> Lorgar had his guts disemboweled by a hot blade which I would wager is a lot more painful and damaging than having a blade stuck in the back or pushed through the stomach. And both the Primarchs were recovering and talking moments after their grievous injuries.
> 
> It's all about the willpower of the particular Primarch in question.


The first three legions to combat Horus's forces where the Iron Hands, Salamanders and the Raven Guard. The others had yet to show and where meant to reinforce the three already fighting the Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Death Guard and Sons of Horus. The Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion and Word Bearers all turned on the three loyal legions as they where falling back since they thought they where about to be relieved.

Every Primarch on the Loyalist Side was fighting from the start, Ferrus falling to Daemon Fulgrim's Laer Blade, Vulkan smashing anything they came near him, and Corax swooping from place to place where he was needed literally cutting marines in half with wings that where attached to his jet pack.

When they realised they where betrayed Corax ended up decending upon the Gal Vorbak, the elite possessed of the Word Bearers, Lorgar who despite calls from his adopted father Kor Phaeron and Erebus tried to save what he could, using a psychic power he "buffed" himself and all his Word Bearers, however despite landing a pretty hefty blow against Corax with a weapon made for him by Ferrus Manus, was nearly gutted by Corax's power claw, just as Corax was about to finish him, Night Haunter decided to intervene by grabbing Corax's arm with a grin on his face. The "little Raven" decided to escape and used up his remaining fuel to pull free and fly off.

Anyway as you can see, Corax had been fighting for ages before the "reinforcements" arrived, he then had to turn and confront this new enemy as well as the Primarchs.

Corax is a pretty bad ass Primarch, afaik he's one of three to beat Horus in a duel as well as stick two fingers up at him when they got into a fight.

If you read First Heretic, A Raven's Flight and the Face of Treachery in Age of Darkness, it'll give you the whole picture of what happened to the Raven Guard during the massacre, you can even throw in Fulgrim to give you more detail on what happened around them, like the fight between Ferrus Manus and Fulgrim.

I'll agree to disagree on the Mortarion subject, I believe he had unnatural resilience beyond other Primarchs, just as Vulkan is actually supposedly the "strongest" of the Primarchs now or Guilliman was the best tactician etc.


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