# Would you like to see guilliman return to 40k?



## Garviel loken.

After hinting on another thread that guilliman may return, a few people commeted saying very interesting things. I think guilliman returning is just what 40k needs. Someone mentioned he would start his own great crusade which is a wonderful idea! So gents, what do you think?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

What confuses me is how would he suddenly start a new Great Crusade? :wacko:


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## Tawa

I'd like to see _a_ Primarch return. If it's Rowboat, then fair enough as he's the master logistician etc.

Plus, I'd give a kidney to see him beat his way into the High Lords chamber. "What the actual fuck are you bunch of muppets playing at!?" :laugh:


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## Vaz

Why would it make it any more interesting? The timeline's not going to advance enough. Fantasy CAN advance, and IS, but 40K? Can't actually see where having Rowboat wake up actually will.

The argument of "he's healing while in stasis" doesn't hold true, because if he's healing in stasis, then he's going to be able to heal outside of stasis. It was one of McNeil's typical stupid throwaway lines.


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## Brobaddon

Mhm. First Great Crusade was possible because of the fall of the Eldar race. Orks were there but were a minor threat, and Dark Eldar were still forming fully in the commoragh i guess. 

Gathering a massive army now would result in leaving Imperium full of vast holes in their defenses, which would be exploited by pretty much every race. 

Albeit I guess this Great Crusade would be fought mainly by Astra militarum forces....?


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## Vitarus

How many Primarchs are running around in 40K? Horus Heresy and Space Marine Battles is the only place I've personally seen them. I haven't read nearly as much as many of you, but I've read a good several since this post:
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=117260
So maybe I just haven't read the right books, but Primarchs are obviously not too common. It would be nice to see more of them.


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## Brobaddon

Let's see. Angron and Mortarion only . Lorgar is locked in his tower fapping at his holy texts, and Perturabo is doing god knows what on Medrengard.

Dunno if I missed someone.

Fulgrim, but no idea if there's actually anything on him post heresy....


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## Khorne's Fist

If Rowboat came back he wouldn't launch a new crusade, he'd have his hands full dealing with the mess the Imperium has become. It's like in UE. He wants to consolidate what they hold before he does anything drastic like going on the offensive. Any of the others might do things differently, but that's what Guilliman is bred for.


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## Vaz

Lion El'Johnson - kept in the Rock
-
Fulgrim - Ascended to Daemon Primarch
Perturabo - on Medrengard
Khan - in the webway hunting Eldar
Russ - in the Warp, coming at "the wolf time"
Dorn - presumed dead, only found his fist following an assault on a Chaos Cruiser
Curze - killed by M'Shen to prove a point to the Imperium
Sanguinius - killed by Horus on the Vengeful Spirit
Ferrus - killed by Fulgrim at the Dropsite Massacre
-
Angron - still alive, lead the first war for Armageddon, banished to warp for a thousand years by Aurelian
Rowboat - poisoned by Fulgrim during the scouring, in stasis on macragge, possibly still alive
Mortarion - still alive, has an autograph of Draigo on his heart, turned a daemon world to become Barbarus
Magnus - still alive, not too happy about his legion turning into cybermen
Horus - killed by big Emperor on Vengeful Spirit at the end of the Siege of Terra
Lorgar - Still alive post heresy
Vulkan - last seen to be insane, hunted by Curze, and also a Perpetual. Location unknown, presumed alive
Corax - presumed alive, gone into the warp, "Nevermore".
Alpharius - unknown. Rumours of his death were fabricated. Presumed alive, but who really knows?
Omegon - unknown. Omegon came after the information about Alpharius' "death". 

That's 7 Primarchs known to be alive, 1 presumed, and Omegon's unknown (and neither is it known which side they'd fall on now), of the loyalists, there are 5 still presumed to be alive (although only 3 are presumed Compus Mentus), 1 presumed dead (but equally still possible to be alive?), and 1 wounded, but possibly still alive but trapped in Stasis.

Best case scenario for the loyalists is Dorn is found missing a hand, Rowboat is brought out of Stasis and heals up, Vulkan and the Lion become sane once more, and seeing the nature of the war, Alpharius+Omegon return to the Imperium, plus the 3 others come back - which results in 9 loyalists versus 7 heretics - or maybe to show the division in the AL, it becomes 8 loyalists versus 8 heretics - with the twins on either side of the war.


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## Garviel loken.

Vaz said:


> Why would it make it any more interesting? The timeline's not going to advance enough. Fantasy CAN advance, and IS, but 40K? Can't actually see where having Rowboat wake up actually will.
> 
> The argument of "he's healing while in stasis" doesn't hold true, because if he's healing in stasis, then he's going to be able to heal outside of stasis. It was one of McNeil's typical stupid throwaway lines.


well, in angel exterminatus there is a device that can heal people in stasis, so you never know


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## Garviel loken.

Tawa said:


> I'd like to see _a_ Primarch return. If it's Rowboat, then fair enough as he's the master logistician etc.
> 
> Plus, I'd give a kidney to see him beat his way into the High Lords chamber. "What the actual fuck are you bunch of muppets playing at!?" :laugh:


i think it would be great to see what roboute thinks of the ultramarines!


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## Reaper45

Garviel loken. said:


> i think it would be great to see what roboute thinks of the ultramarines!


I think the opinion would be the most epic face palm in history.

Everything the ultramarines are now is the exact opposite of what gulliman wanted them to be, in fact there's only one ultramarine who would fit with the model of what an ultramarine should be.

Even if he returned what could he really do. the ultramarine controlled area is the best area in the imperium to live, unless is figures out a way to knock some sense into the mechanius and is capable of organizing the various astartes chapters who are all doing their own thing into performing useful tasks, not to mention figuring out a way to put the eccentrically back in their place it's not going to change anything.


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## Garviel loken.

Reaper45 said:


> I think the opinion would be the most epic face palm in history.
> 
> Everything the ultramarines are now is the exact opposite of what gulliman wanted them to be, in fact there's only one ultramarine who would fit with the model of what an ultramarine should be.
> 
> Even if he returned what could he really do. the ultramarine controlled area is the best area in the imperium to live, unless is figures out a way to knock some sense into the mechanius and is capable of organizing the various astartes chapters who are all doing their own thing into performing useful tasks, not to mention figuring out a way to put the eccentrically back in their place it's not going to change anything.


Ya guilliman never intended for the codex to be followed so strictly. This is the reason why 30k ultramarines are my favourite legions, but 40k ultras are not.
Well I think he's the one man that can unite the imperium. He did amazing things during the scouring, and while I know there are far more numerous threats, he may be able to amazing things


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## Haskanael

yes please


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## Moriouce

No please, I rather see someone who just left return. Khan or Russ. They might have found this item that heal people in stasis.


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## Tawa

Garviel loken. said:


> i think it would be great to see what roboute thinks of the ultramarines!


Probably something like this.......


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## Brobaddon

I could totally see Khan being " kidnapped " by Dark Eldar and held in Commoragh though.


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## Serpion5

This is really more of a 40k fluff discussion than Black Library. Moved.

Personally, I think Roboute returning would be a cheap plot twist. Frankly I think most of the current primarch "endings" are cheap plot twists. One or two would have been okay, but as we see from Vaz' list, GW clearly doesn't know how to keep a story under control. It was better when all of them were dead or daemonic. Added to their status as legends from an older time, the likes of whom will never be seen again.


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## Angel of Lies

Russ or the Khan would not unite the Imperium. In fact, I do not believe the High Lords would recognize them at all. Likely they'd be declared some sort of Chaos abomination, the findings would be backed by an equally suspicious (and power hungry) Inquisition and the Primarchs would be hunted until death. 

Yes the Space Wolves would flock to Russ and the White Scars and their successors. But neither legion was exactly very prolific in generating successors, especially the Wolves. At best, they'd have fled to the very edge of Imperial space where Russ/Khan would lead a guerilla war while trying to rapidly increase their numbers. Although for the Wolves this may be impossible since they have such a strong connection to Fenris.

Guilliman's return would be met with more respect (and fear) by the High Lords. If Guilliman called upon the Ultramarines and their successors to rally to him -- many would. But then I feel just as many would not. Why? Just because you are a Primarch doesn't mean people (or Astartes) will believe you. Guilliman's been, for all intents and purposes, dead for 10,000ish years. Again I think a great many people would just see it as some Chaos inspired trick.

We've already seen things similar to this occur in the Blood Angels Omnibus. The Chapters would not eagerly or willingly embrace their Primarchs. They'd think them some grim and masterful Chaos trick.

Edit: One thing to also keep in perspective is that amount of time these Chapters have been without their Primarchs. Yes Guilliman, Khan, and Russ led their chapters for perhaps a thousand years at most (I'm being liberal here because I don't honestly know), but these Chapters (and their successors) have been independent and left to their own devices for 9,000 plus years. In the case of the Founding Chapters I feel the Primarchs would be lauded ... but the Successor Chapters may not be so inclined since they've formed their own, very unique personalities and traditions over the years which in some cases is radically different than their Founders.


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## theurge33

How do you think the meeting with Calgar and Guilliman would go? I don't know enough about Calgar to guess.


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## Haskanael

theurge33 said:


> How do you think the meeting with Calgar and Guilliman would go? I don't know enough about Calgar to guess.


I would personaly hope that it would end in punches XD


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## Zooey72

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> What confuses me is how would he suddenly start a new Great Crusade? :wacko:


That's an easy one to answer. Humanity may be the red headed step child of the 41st mil. but the return of a primarch would unite humanity in a way nothing else (short of the Emperor waking up) could. That's just for starters.

Any primarch coming back could unite humanity, but pappa smurf was the managerial primarch. If anyone could turn the whole mess around it would be him.

Not trying to be RL political, but take the election of the first black president. Well la dee da - he has a darker skin pigmentation - woo hoo (I guess). In 40k terms however genetics does matter. He is the son of the God Emperor who was able to force back the combined power of 4 Chaos gods that inhabbited Horus. There is not much of an equivelant to a primarch with the other races fighting for control over the galaxy. Even the traitor primarch do not compare to a loyalist primarch because they are now all daemons and suffer from the restrictions daemons have.

As far as pappa smurf coming back? Well, if Fulgrim can take a steel dart through the eye socket and consider it a "flesh wound" I don't see why rowboat can't have his head severed and come back.


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## Karthak

Yes, if only so we could see Abaddon's reaction when he finds out that a Primarch stands with the Imperium once more.


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## Reaper45

Zooey72 said:


> That's an easy one to answer. Humanity may be the red headed step child of the 41st mil. but the return of a primarch would unite humanity in a way nothing else (short of the Emperor waking up) could. That's just for starters.
> 
> Any primarch coming back could unite humanity, but pappa smurf was the managerial primarch. If anyone could turn the whole mess around it would be him.
> 
> Not trying to be RL political, but take the election of the first black president. Well la dee da - he has a darker skin pigmentation - woo hoo (I guess). In 40k terms however genetics does matter. He is the son of the God Emperor who was able to force back the combined power of 4 Chaos gods that inhabbited Horus. There is not much of an equivelant to a primarch with the other races fighting for control over the galaxy. Even the traitor primarch do not compare to a loyalist primarch because they are now all daemons and suffer from the restrictions daemons have.
> 
> As far as pappa smurf coming back? Well, if Fulgrim can take a steel dart through the eye socket and consider it a "flesh wound" I don't see why rowboat can't have his head severed and come back.


And you honestly think that people are going to bow to gullimans authority?
When it comes to authority humans rank lower on the scale than orks.


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## Angel of Blood

Zooey72 said:


> That's an easy one to answer. Humanity may be the red headed step child of the 41st mil. but the return of a primarch would unite humanity in a way nothing else (short of the Emperor waking up) could. That's just for starters.
> 
> Any primarch coming back could unite humanity, but pappa smurf was the managerial primarch. If anyone could turn the whole mess around it would be him.
> 
> Not trying to be RL political, but take the election of the first black president. Well la dee da - he has a darker skin pigmentation - woo hoo (I guess). In 40k terms however genetics does matter. He is the son of the God Emperor who was able to force back the combined power of 4 Chaos gods that inhabbited Horus. There is not much of an equivelant to a primarch with the other races fighting for control over the galaxy. Even the traitor primarch do not compare to a loyalist primarch because they are now all daemons and suffer from the restrictions daemons have.
> 
> As far as pappa smurf coming back? Well, if Fulgrim can take a steel dart through the eye socket and consider it a "flesh wound" I don't see why rowboat can't have his head severed and come back.


I think you are severely underestimating the paranoia and power the High Lords hold, along with the Inquisition and others.

I'm still firmly of the belief that a Primarchs return would end in another civil war, unless he was to fully submit to the High Lords and then likely be sent off to be tied up or become a martyr at the head of an impossibly aggressive crusade.


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## Garviel loken.

Angel of Blood said:


> I think you are severely underestimating the paranoia and power the High Lords hold, along with the Inquisition and others.
> 
> I'm still firmly of the belief that a Primarchs return would end in another civil war, unless he was to fully submit to the High Lords and then likely be sent off to be tied up or become a martyr at the head of an impossibly aggressive crusade.


Rob could easily get 3/4 of the astartes to rally under him. I think the high lords would have to submit to him in the end.


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## Reaper45

Angel of Blood said:


> I think you are severely underestimating the paranoia and power the High Lords hold, along with the Inquisition and others.
> 
> I'm still firmly of the belief that a Primarchs return would end in another civil war, unless he was to fully submit to the High Lords and then likely be sent off to be tied up or become a martyr at the head of an impossibly aggressive crusade.


Would a second civil war be a bad thing? As it stands the imperium would benefit from a purging of it's ranks.


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## locustgate

Reaper45 said:


> Would a second civil war be a bad thing? As it stands the imperium would benefit from a purging of it's ranks.


And while the imperium is purging their ranks nids are raiding their fridge, chaos is defiling their bedroom with the most nasty dirty depraved sex in the history of the universe, dark eldar turn their basement into a S&M club, tau declared their pool theirs, the eldar have set up a drum circle in the living room, necrons have parked their monoliths on the front lawn, and orks are trashing the dining room with the largest kegger in history. So by the time they finish putting their house in order they only control the bathroom and entrance hall.


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## LordNecross

locustgate said:


> And while the imperium is purging their ranks nids are raiding their fridge, chaos is defiling their bedroom with the most nasty dirty depraved sex in the history of the universe, dark eldar takes over their basement for a S&M club, tau declared their pool theirs, the eldar has put up a drum circle in the living room, necrons have parked their monoliths on the front lawn, and orks are trashing the dining room with the largest kegger in history. So by the time they finish putting their house in order they only control the bathroom and entrance hall.


Hey hey hey, the Imperium's lawn is in terrible shape, and they don't even use water wise plants.

A few Obelisks here and there would be an improvement I dare say!


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## Haskanael

locustgate said:


> And while the imperium is purging their ranks nids are raiding their fridge, chaos is defiling their bedroom with the most nasty dirty depraved sex in the history of the universe, dark eldar turn their basement into a S&M club, tau declared their pool theirs, the eldar have set up a drum circle in the living room, necrons have parked their monoliths on the front lawn, and orks are trashing the dining room with the largest kegger in history. So by the time they finish putting their house in order they only control the bathroom and entrance hall.


you made me laugh so badly you made my week.


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## Reaper45

locustgate said:


> And while the imperium is purging their ranks nids are raiding their fridge, chaos is defiling their bedroom with the most nasty dirty depraved sex in the history of the universe, dark eldar turn their basement into a S&M club, tau declared their pool theirs, the eldar have set up a drum circle in the living room, necrons have parked their monoliths on the front lawn, and orks are trashing the dining room with the largest kegger in history. So by the time they finish putting their house in order they only control the bathroom and entrance hall.


And once it's all done the imperium would be left with survivor completely loyal to a primarch who was capable of organizing the imperium in such a way that humans took nearly ten thousand years to screw it up.

The imperium boasts a million worlds, losing a few isn't going to be a big deal.


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## Beaviz81

Guilliman left the IOM in shambles when he died despite passing laws that made Empy look stupid. Sorry big fan of Empy here so no fan of the big blue boyscout. I rather have any Primarch return before him and I'm all for the side of good.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Garviel loken. said:


> Rob could easily get 3/4 of the astartes to rally under him. I think the high lords would have to submit to him in the end.


Perhaps a Primarch could muster a that amount of support amongst the Adeptus Astartes, but amongst the wider Imperium? I highly doubt it given the stranglehold the High Lords and Ecclesiarchy have on Humanity. 



Reaper45 said:


> Would a second civil war be a bad thing? As it stands the imperium would benefit from a purging of it's ranks.


Yes, it would probably be fatal. The Imperium cannot fight a major civil war with the 13th Black Crusade (which in itself has resulted in the largest mobilisation of Imperial forces since the Heresy itself), Third Armageddon War, Crusade of the Red Corsairs, The Night of a Thousand Rebellions, The Great Awakening, Hive Fleet incursions etc. occuring simultaneously.


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## Reaper45

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Perhaps a Primarch could muster a that amount of support amongst the Adeptus Astartes, but amongst the wider Imperium? I highly doubt it given the stranglehold the High Lords and Ecclesiarchy have on Humanity.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it would probably be fatal. The Imperium cannot fight a major civil war with the 13th Black Crusade (which in itself has resulted in the largest mobilisation of Imperial forces since the Heresy itself), Third Armageddon War, Crusade of the Red Corsairs, The Night of a Thousand Rebellions, The Great Awakening, Hive Fleet incursions etc. occuring simultaneously.


So a civil war with gulliman leading one side would be doomed to failure? He is supposed to be a master of logistics. Seems to be like he would be the perfect one to ensure that their side would survive.


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## Bone2pick

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yes, it would probably be fatal. The Imperium cannot fight a major civil war with the 13th Black Crusade (which in itself has resulted in the largest mobilisation of Imperial forces since the Heresy itself), Third Armageddon War, Crusade of the Red Corsairs, The Night of a Thousand Rebellions, The Great Awakening, Hive Fleet incursions etc. occuring simultaneously.


If that's the general rational then I would imagine the Imperium would rally behind Guilliman out of sheer necessity. If it's five minutes to midnight (or however many minutes are in that popular expression) then you're forced to circle the wagons with anyone that would lend a hand. I'm not saying a Primarch's inclusion wouldn't have its wrinkles, but I'd bet on him getting enough support for his Imperial opponents to have to accept him.


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## Brobaddon

High Lords of Terra would definitely object to the idea that a primarch has suddenly arrisen. Mostly because they would worry about their own position, as I imagine a Primarch would overtake the leadership of all Imperium's armies. 

I know Emperor hated faith and religion and that he would probably hate the idea of Ministorum and it's zealot like worship of him, but what about Guiliman? 

I wonder if he would just go along with it. He's a strategist, I think he would know that opposing aspect of humanity's faith would lead to grave consquences.... at least not now when 13th black crusade is still not over and stuff...


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## Zooey72

Angel of Blood said:


> I think you are severely underestimating the paranoia and power the High Lords hold, along with the Inquisition and others.
> 
> I'm still firmly of the belief that a Primarchs return would end in another civil war, unless he was to fully submit to the High Lords and then likely be sent off to be tied up or become a martyr at the head of an impossibly aggressive crusade.


You may be have a point as far as the imperial army goes, but no loyalist space marine is going to rise up against a primarch IMO. Trying to make him out to be a warp/chaos thing would be the only way. Most astartes would be interested in trying to get their own primarchs back once one came forward (or at least the ones that are in doubt as to whether they are dead or not). The chapters that spawned from the Raven's guard, Space Wolves, White Scars, Salamanders, and Dark Angels would seek out Papa Smurf to try and reunite with their own primarchs. The 40k universe if very apocalyptic and the 'coming' of one primarch would be seen as a sign that the rest are coming as well. Would/could the high lords of Terra fight the combined might of the Astartes (along with a large portion of the imperial army and I am betting all the sisters of battle)?

Maybe they would try, but I doubt it.


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## locustgate

> And once it's all done the imperium would be left with survivor completely loyal to a primarch who was capable of organizing the imperium in such a way that humans took nearly ten thousand years to screw it up.
> 
> The imperium boasts a million worlds, losing a few isn't going to be a big deal.





Reaper45 said:


> So a civil war with gulliman leading one side would be doomed to failure? He is supposed to be a master of logistics. Seems to be like he would be the perfect one to ensure that their side would survive.


If you have a few million and lose a few million you have best case a few thousand.

You can be the Jesus Christ of tactics but unless you can pull more soldiers and supplies out of your ass your screwed. Tactics alone doesn't win a war neither does numbers alone (unless you have ridiculous more than your opponent).


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## Garviel loken.

Well lets say guilliman can muster 75% of the astartes, and many of the imperial guard in the 500 worlds, that leaves a big hole in the imperium. The high lords would have to side with guilliman. As far as religion goes, guilliman would have at (or try to) abolished. I also think he would bring the ultramarines back to what they were, ya know, without following the codex as their bible


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## Khorne's Fist

Garviel loken. said:


> As far as religion goes, guilliman would have at (or try to) abolished.


That might be a step too far even for a primarch at this stage. Belief in the God Emperor is the one common thread holding the Imperium together after 10,000 years of chaos and strife. He might just have to bite the bullet on this one and let it slide. Trying to tackle it could cause more trouble than it would solve.


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## Garviel loken.

Khorne's Fist said:


> That might be a step too far even for a primarch at this stage. Belief in the God Emperor is the one common thread holding the Imperium together after 10,000 years of chaos and strife. He might just have to bite the bullet on this one and let it slide. Trying to tackle it could cause more trouble than it would solve.


good points. Him saying the emperor is no god could have even astartes try to kill him


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## Reaper45

locustgate said:


> If you have a few million and lose a few million you have best case a few thousand.
> 
> You can be the Jesus Christ of tactics but unless you can pull more soldiers and supplies out of your ass your screwed. Tactics alone doesn't win a war neither does numbers alone (unless you have ridiculous more than your opponent).


Whose to say they would only use human forces?

There's an entire empire that could be persuaded to assist if someone with the intellect of a primarch gave them good enough reasons.



Garviel loken. said:


> good points. Him saying the emperor is no god could have even astartes try to kill him


Considering the fact that most chapters don't view him as a god anyways...


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## ckcrawford

It would be interesting. If there was a pausible and good story line to gain from a returning primarch without being too ridiculous, he'd be the one.


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## Tawa

theurge33 said:


> How do you think the meeting with Calgar and Guilliman would go?


"You're not my real dad!" *runs off wailing.....*


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## Angel of Blood

Reaper45 said:


> Whose to say they would only use human forces?
> 
> There's an entire empire that could be persuaded to assist if someone with the intellect of a primarch gave them good enough reasons.
> 
> 
> Considering the fact that most chapters don't view him as a god anyways...


Are you refering to the Tau? What makes you think Guilliman would ally with them, or perhaps you mean the Eldar, whose he's even less likely to ally with, never mind them wanting to ally with him.


In any case, I still think most of you are severely underestimating the High Lords and overestimating just how many will just up and follow a returned Primarch. But I've done this dance before and it doesn't end, so enjoy.


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## Reaper45

Angel of Blood said:


> Are you refering to the Tau? What makes you think Guilliman would ally with them, or perhaps you mean the Eldar, whose he's even less likely to ally with, never mind them wanting to ally with him.
> 
> 
> In any case, I still think most of you are severely underestimating the High Lords and overestimating just how many will just up and follow a returned Primarch. But I've done this dance before and it doesn't end, so enjoy.


The tau are pragmatic enough that they could see the value of an alliance. They faced down a hive fleet, necrons and orks. Now imagine if the imperium wasn't there to blunt those blades.


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## Angel of Blood

Reaper45 said:


> The tau are pragmatic enough that they could see the value of an alliance. They faced down a hive fleet, necrons and orks. Now imagine if the imperium wasn't there to blunt those blades.


The Tau might be, Guilliman would not be.


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## Beaviz81

Angel of Blood said:


> The Tau might be, Guilliman would not be.


The idea of Guilliman suddenly awakening makes me cringe. But evidence suggest he is a rather pragmatic person, I can see him crafting a lasting alliance with the Tau. Though if that happened I would most likely stop following this hobby.


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## Words_of_Truth

The Lion or Dorn yes, Guilliman no I don't think he'd change much tbh apart from take a stronger grasp on the control of chapters.


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## Over Two Meters Tall!

Words_of_Truth said:


> The Lion or Dorn yes, Guilliman no I don't think he'd change much tbh apart from take a stronger grasp on the control of chapters.


Who knows, he might just look at the Imperium, give himself a pat on the back and say, "10,000 years? See, I was right."


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## Reaper45

Angel of Blood said:


> The Tau might be, Guilliman would not be.


He didn't seem too broken up when it violated the edict of nikea or when he used xeno tech in place of the astronomacon.

He also could paint himself green and convince the orks he's a warboss.


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## Terricus

This would definately be interesting, especially with what has happend to the imperium. Now this would probably mean he would take the reins of the defense against the 13th black crusade. But honestly...id take abaddon in a fight.


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## Beaviz81

Terricus said:


> This would definately be interesting, especially with what has happend to the imperium. Now this would probably mean he would take the reins of the defense against the 13th black crusade. But honestly...id take abaddon in a fight.


Worst is that that might happen. I mean the IOM have two Primarch-beating Space Marines walking around, and Abbaddon might be the most powerful Space Marine ever.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Reaper45 said:


> So a civil war with gulliman leading one side would be doomed to failure? He is supposed to be a master of logistics. Seems to be like he would be the perfect one to ensure that their side would survive.


No, I didn't say which side I think would win, I don't think it would matter. I said that the Imperium couldn't bear a civil war during the Time of Ending - too much end-of-the-universe Armageddon shit is going on. The setting dictates that the Imperium is going to lose anyway, it doesn't need a major civil war to help speed that process along. 



Bone2pick said:


> If that's the general rational then I would imagine the Imperium would rally behind Guilliman out of sheer necessity.


If the Imperium was rational then I'd agree with you, but it's not. In fact it's completely irrational, paranoid, tyrannical and absurd. The High Lords, Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition would unanimously have to unite behind Guilliman, and that would never happen. 

The High Lords are paranoid and deluded tyrants who rule the Imperium with an iron-fist, would they ever relinquish even a minute amount of their power?

The Ecclesiarchy are crazed fanatics dedicated to a false-vision who influence the thoughts, beliefs and practices of every human in the Imperium, would they ever praise a Commander of an organisation (whom they already famously have a fractious relationship with) who denies their God-Emperor is actually divine?

The Inquisition is made up of arrogant, cruel, conceited individuals whose sole purpose is to root out threats to the God-Emperor's realm. Would they truly believe a Primarch has returned? Or would they more likely believe it a Chaos façade, trying to subvert and deceive the God-Emperor's flock? 

In my opinion, the only way Guilliman (or another returning Primarch) could remotely aid the Imperium would be simply to muster what available forces he could and charge headlong into the nearest warzone (preferably the Cadian Gate) and avoid the politics at all costs. The High Lords would much sooner try to assassinate any Primarch than they would unite behind him.


----------



## Vaz

Guilliman is a master of tactics that no-one can comprehend. 

He was one of 18 (19, maybe 21) Individuals who conquered much of the galaxy in less than 3 human lifetimes.

The Heresy proved he cannot simply be killed off. The deaths we know about were either Primarch on Primarch; (Ferrus Manus, Sanguinius, "Guilliman", and "Alpharius"), commited by the Emperor himself (Horus), or allowed to happen due to some crazed prophecy (Curze). Of those Primarch known deaths, two were caused by those supported by Chaos powers.

Other abilities of the Primarchs include defeating An'ggrath by one who was considered to be among the weaker - both physically and mentally - Primarchs (although Khorne may have played to Lorgar's Warrior Pride in this manner and either supported him/removed some of the Unbound's power), lifting a scout titan leg (possibly Chaos supported, admittedly), destroying battle titans with psychic powers (Chaos enhanced via tutelaries, possibly, though), not only avoiding a Sniper bullet by a literal Space Marine ninja (although chaos enhanced), but actually avoiding the shot enough to ensure that it only grazed him, and an absolute ton of other superhuman feats - admittedly that Chaos ones are the ones which have come to my mind, but similar things to that are still the produce of a Primarch - whether it's having a Cathedral fall on you, or survive an attack by a squad of, in all likelihood, the Veteran of the Alpha Legion in a locked room while unarmed. Rowboat, given his dues is a tough cunt.

Other things include being able to avoid Assassination (as in Nemesis - that was more luck than anything, but there's no saying that the Assassination would have worked anyway, or ones as in TUE) are fairly commonplace things. Given that the Space Wolves were able to not only defend the Fang, it seems to be a little more likely that Ultramar could be defended by Guilliman and the accumulated chapters of those most loyal to the Ultra's and Guilliman following the second founding.

Unlike say Russ, who never really came across as a particularly brilliant commander of other forces, Guilliman is the one primarch, other than perhaps Horus, or Alpharius who would know the exact capabilities of those human auxiliaries to his "legion". Russ, the Lion, the Khan, would all struggle. Corax would not be able to be mount more than an insurgency in my eyes, or do so as effectively. Dorn would be the other - but his sterness and lack of empathy would make it hard.

Guilliman is the best person to return to the Imperium for that matter. Like the Emperor knew how to play to the Mechanicum's idea of the Omnissiah, Guilliman would, and should be able to play by the new rules of the Imperium. In time, he'd be able to act as the Iconoclast to the Imperial Faith if that's what it took, but Guilliman is nothing if not a pragmatist - after all, the Grey Knights and Space Wolves are proof if anything that faith, or belief in something holds true - it may not be the Emperor's doing, but having that anchor or guiding light is something that the Imperium relies on both philosophically, and materially (the Astronomicon).

It's unclear how Guilliman would see the Tau - after all, they were a threat to the Imperium, and back then it was all "kill the Xenos" - but many Xenos or abhumans have been left alive by the Imperium or made use of - and with Calgons urging, he may find a use for the Tau as allies.

In regards to the Eldar - well, Ulthran's dead, so his seeing powers are lost, but in return, he may either be a threat for the Elves, and so try and kill him (it's not worked yet), or they may try and use them as they have other Space Marine commanders.

The biggest threat he faces is the Nids. Unlike the Space Marines and especially the ultra's who are fairly hidebound by their Codex, Guilliman above all despite being such a tactical genius as to make Creed look like a baby playing with toy soldiers, was capable of developing complex tactics. The Nids constantly learn and adapt. It would serve to nucleate the space marine efforts around just the region of space which Rowboat would immediately command over - the quicker he comes up with new tactics, the quicker the Nids adapt around them and employ them against those who cannot adapt as quick as the Nids. However, if he has enough time to garner support against them, making him into some sort of Command Shepherd before delving into the fray, they stand a chance.

Admittedly, avoiding the politics was what the Primarchs would do best at, but if there's one who could navigate those waters, it would be Rowboat.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I thought Sharrowkyn's sniper shot hit Fulgrim full on in the head but Fulgrim simply regenerated.


----------



## Old Man78

I wanna see Guillman back leading an army of squats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Angel of Blood

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No, I didn't say which side I think would win, I don't think it would matter. I said that the Imperium couldn't bear a civil war during the Time of Ending - too much end-of-the-universe Armageddon shit is going on. The setting dictates that the Imperium is going to lose anyway, it doesn't need a major civil war to help speed that process along.
> 
> 
> 
> If the Imperium was rational then I'd agree with you, but it's not. In fact it's completely irrational, paranoid, tyrannical and absurd. The High Lords, Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition would unanimously have to unite behind Guilliman, and that would never happen.
> 
> The High Lords are paranoid and deluded tyrants who rule the Imperium with an iron-fist, would they ever relinquish even a minute amount of their power?
> 
> The Ecclesiarchy are crazed fanatics dedicated to a false-vision who influence the thoughts, beliefs and practices of every human in the Imperium, would they ever praise a Commander of an organisation (whom they already famously have a fractious relationship with) who denies their God-Emperor is actually divine?
> 
> The Inquisition is made up of arrogant, cruel, conceited individuals whose sole purpose is to root out threats to the God-Emperor's realm. Would they truly believe a Primarch has returned? Or would they more likely believe it a Chaos façade, trying to subvert and deceive the God-Emperor's flock?
> 
> In my opinion, the only way Guilliman (or another returning Primarch) could remotely aid the Imperium would be simply to muster what available forces he could and charge headlong into the nearest warzone (preferably the Cadian Gate) and avoid the politics at all costs. The High Lords would much sooner try to assassinate any Primarch than they would unite behind him.


At least somebody else sees it the way I do. Of course it would be you CotE  Where's @Phoebus as well?


----------



## Brother Lucian

I have to bring up this thusly:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/War_of_the_False_Primarch


----------



## Tawa

Interesting that one of the five chapters of the Pentarchy is the Carcharodons.......


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Angel of Blood said:


> At least somebody else sees it the way I do. Of course it would be you CotE  Where's @Phoebus as well?


:laugh:



Brother Lucian said:


> I have to bring up this thusly:
> http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/War_of_the_False_Primarch


A very apt example.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> :
> 
> A very apt example.


Reads like a recent and forced fluff addition to put an end to the discussion of whether or not a returned Primarch would be welcomed back. In addition 5 loyalist chapters wiping out 11 traitor chapters seems ridiculous.


----------



## Bone2pick

Malus Darkblade said:


> Reads like a recent and forced fluff addition to put an end to the discussion of whether or not a returned Primarch would be welcomed back. In addition 5 loyalist chapters wiping out 11 traitor chapters seems ridiculous.


Those are my impressions as well. It reads (for me) like a fanfic response to a forum thread.


----------



## Terricus

Id much rather see Russ return, he seems more like a guy who could bring vengeance to the traitors rather then Dudley do right rowboat.


----------



## Angel of Blood

I'd rather see the Lion, or the Khan, both would be so unpredictable, who knows what the fuck would happen. Along with the fact that both could easily return. We know exactly where the Lion is, and the Khan is a mystery, apart from the fact that he was chasing Dark Eldar. Guilliman requires some bullshit deus ex machine to return and just doesn't sit right with me, and many others on here alone.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Regarding the Khan. I was always speculating that he was the secret behind the extreme longevity of Asdrubael Vect, whom claimed to have witnesssed the Fall of the Eldar. Surviving and staying ahead of the game because he had a demigod primarch to torture for eternity.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Although there's nothing to say what happened to the Khan, beyond that he disappeared chasing the Dark Eldar. I've always been a fan of that theory that he's being held captive by them. That theory on Vect is a new one to me, can't say knowledge on Dark Eldar is anything like me Imperium and Chaos fluff, but it sounds like quite an interesting one.


----------



## ckcrawford

Angel of Blood said:


> Although there's nothing to say what happened to the Khan, beyond that he disappeared chasing the Dark Eldar. I've always been a fan of that theory that he's being held captive by them. That theory on Vect is a new one to me, can't say knowledge on Dark Eldar is anything like me Imperium and Chaos fluff, but it sounds like quite an interesting one.


It seems that, thats the route a lot of BL authors have gone when talking about their disappearance. _The Battle of the Fang_, Magnus seems to have hinted he is trapped somewhere but not dead. There was a story in the Daemon Codex about eternal war that lasts eternity with an Orc Warband in one of Khornes planets. They essentially get trapped and after every battle it restarts for eternity. I could see something similar like that with Russ, Khan, and even Vulkan.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

"Tom Cruise as Leman Russ in this summer's blockbuster Edge of Tomorrow"


----------



## Lux

Angel of Blood said:


> I'd rather see the Lion, or the Khan, both would be so unpredictable, who knows what the fuck would happen. Along with the fact that both could easily return. We know exactly where the Lion is, and the Khan is a mystery, apart from the fact that he was chasing Dark Eldar. Guilliman requires some bullshit deus ex machine to return and just doesn't sit right with me, and many others on here alone.


The Iron Heart is a perfect plot device to revive him with, and the writers likely created/mentioned it purely with the purpose of one day using it as a means of bringing him back into the story. For anyone not familiar with the iron heart device, it is stated to be able to heal any wound of any individual while in stasis.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

ckcrawford said:


> It seems that, thats the route a lot of BL authors have gone when talking about their disappearance. _The Battle of the Fang_, Magnus seems to have hinted he is trapped somewhere but not dead.


And let's not forget the giant warrior in baroque armour that is mentioned in the Necron codex that Trazan the collector has as part of his collection.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> Reads like a recent and forced fluff addition to put an end to the discussion of whether or not a returned Primarch would be welcomed back.


It doesn't solve that issue, not at all. But it is an apt example because it does imply that either a loyal Primarch has returned before and that a civil war was the result, or that an individual successfully posed as a Primarch (Chaos-influenced or otherwise) and that a civil war was the result - at least those are the two most likely situations in my opinion. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> In addition 5 loyalist chapters wiping out 11 traitor chapters seems ridiculous.


Considering we don't have any information whatsoever on the context, I think it is perfectly plausible.


----------



## Tawa

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Considering we don't have any information whatsoever on the context, I think it is perfectly plausible.


Especially - as I've already mentioned - that the Cacharodon's are one of them.

That was probably very messy...... :crazy:


----------



## MontytheMighty

Malus Darkblade said:


> 5 loyalist chapters wiping out 11 traitor chapters seems ridiculous.


I bet among those 5 chapters are the Carcharadons, Minotaurs, and Executioners...cuz y'know they're super savage and beastly and we all know being savage is what makes you militarily effective (Forgeworld has a massive boner for these chapters)


----------



## ckcrawford

Khorne's Fist said:


> And let's not forget the giant warrior in baroque armour that is mentioned in the Necron codex that Trazan the collector has as part of his collection.


Definitely gets people's attention, I always thought it hints to a lost primarch. Though this is not a course canon will follow.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Perfect is not the word I would use to describe it. Also for anyone not familiar, it is never stated that it can heal 'any wound of any individual', only that it is apparently able to have slightly healed an Astsrtes captain who is in stasis, one who I might add is horrifically wounded, but not dead on entry to the stasis field. Guilliman was dead when interred, it states it enough, but I know people here will continue to argue it, so never mind that for now.

As it stands, the healing effects of the Heart of Iron, is almost entirely unknown, there is nothing to say that it would have continued to heal the captain, or what type of wounds it can, and certainly nothing about what it could do with a Primarch physiology, which is even more distant from an Astartes to ours.

Also, you would think the Ultramarines would know about it being attached to him, and they all believe him to be dead, only pilgrims think he is healing, which accounts for nothing as proof in the outrageously superstitious and ignorant Imperium. Further to that, the Heart of Iron started showing signs of treatment after a relatively short period of time, yet for Guilliman it has done nothing in almost ten thousand years? Though I just know you're going up say 'takes longer cause he's a Primarch.', to which I would argue that if it had done nothing noticeable to bring him back from the dead in that time, then it won't be miraculously bringing him back for another few thousand years either, which is time the Imperium doesn't even almost have.


----------



## Terricus

Agreed with Angel^ the best I could see guillimen returning would be if he has a small flicker of lie. Then he would return as a dreadnought


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Yeah, I'm in the Girlyman-is-dead camp. Even the smurfs themselves acknowledge that. Ventris says as much on one of his novels when visiting his tomb.


----------



## Beaviz81

Gulliman like he is now is like Schroedinger's cat. You can open 
the box, but the cat, I mean Primarch would then perish.

If I must choose throwaway lines from McNeill I would go for Trazyn's expressed wish to Siccarus in displaying his body at his place. Much funnier.


----------



## ckcrawford

I always thought Guilliman was at the verge of death, I thought that if he had died that they would have simply burned his body or done a more honorific funeral for their Primarch.


----------



## Beaviz81

ckcrawford said:


> I always thought Guilliman was at the verge of death, I thought that if he had died that they would have simply burned his body or done a more honorific funeral for their Primarch.


I thought people here were familiar with Schroedinger's cat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger's_cat and if he was dead wouldn't he be interred somewhere as AFAIK Romans didn't burn their dead.


----------



## Garviel loken.

Khorne's Fist said:


> Yeah, I'm in the Girlyman-is-dead camp. Even the smurfs themselves acknowledge that. Ventris says as much on one of his novels when visiting his tomb.


enough with the girlyman...


----------



## GabrialSagan

Since time does not move forward in the 40k verse, this is a moot point. Even if it did the only reason to bring Girlyman out of stasis would be for Leman Russ to bury an axe in his head.


----------



## Terricus

They should bring back curze  just kidding


----------



## Reaper45

Angel of Blood said:


> Perfect is not the word I would use to describe it. Also for anyone not familiar, it is never stated that it can heal 'any wound of any individual', only that it is apparently able to have slightly healed an Astsrtes captain who is in stasis, one who I might add is horrifically wounded, but not dead on entry to the stasis field. Guilliman was dead when interred, it states it enough, but I know people here will continue to argue it, so never mind that for now.
> 
> As it stands, the healing effects of the Heart of Iron, is almost entirely unknown, there is nothing to say that it would have continued to heal the captain, or what type of wounds it can, and certainly nothing about what it could do with a Primarch physiology, which is even more distant from an Astartes to ours.
> 
> Also, you would think the Ultramarines would know about it being attached to him, and they all believe him to be dead, only pilgrims think he is healing, which accounts for nothing as proof in the outrageously superstitious and ignorant Imperium. Further to that, the Heart of Iron started showing signs of treatment after a relatively short period of time, yet for Guilliman it has done nothing in almost ten thousand years? Though I just know you're going up say 'takes longer cause he's a Primarch.', to which I would argue that if it had done nothing noticeable to bring him back from the dead in that time, then it won't be miraculously bringing him back for another few thousand years either, which is time the Imperium doesn't even almost have.


To be fair he was wounded by the same sword that did horus in, so technically chaos could undo what happened if it suited them.

Say for example abaddon coming to the point of removing the one thing that chaos enjoys.


----------



## Marauderlegion

I think it'd be cool myself. I'd like to see all the dubiously deceased primarchs come back into the game.

I think it would lead to a civil war/end times/wolf time.

But that sounds like a hoot to me in terms of playing a wargame and reading haphazardly-written novels about same.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Reaper45 said:


> To be fair he was wounded by the same sword that did horus in, so technically chaos could undo what happened if it suited them.
> 
> Say for example abaddon coming to the point of removing the one thing that chaos enjoys.


Assuming it was even one of the Shards of Erebus, that Fulgrim used to slay Guilliman. Or that they even kept the powers of the original Anathema that wounded Horus. Guilliman was cut by one of the Shards and it had no lasting effects on him. Even if this was the case, I doubt the gods could just undo the work of the blade whilst Roboute is enshrined on Macragge in stasis.


----------



## Bone2pick

Khorne's Fist said:


> Yeah, I'm in the Girlyman-is-dead camp. Even the smurfs themselves acknowledge that. Ventris says as much on one of his novels when visiting his tomb.


I view him like the Man in Black in The Princess Bride, he's "mostly dead" but he has a small chance of being pulled back into the light of the living. Maybe he's "all dead", but I think the fluff is open enough to keep a long shot a possibility.


----------



## Frostmore

I think the imperium already uses roboute uberpants brain(tactical computer). after reading know no fear(certainley after vengeful spirit) i think this is possible).I know i would have done this with him but would the imperium?


----------



## locustgate

ckcrawford said:


> I always thought Guilliman was at the verge of death, I thought that if he had died that they would have simply burned his body or done a more honorific funeral for their Primarch.


He was put in stasis 'at the moment of death', Ultramarine books.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Garviel loken. said:


> enough with the girlyman...


Girlyman, girlyman, girlyman.


----------



## Garviel loken.

Khorne's Fist said:


> Garviel loken. said:
> 
> 
> 
> enough with the girlyman...
> 
> 
> 
> Girlyman, girlyman, girlyman.
Click to expand...

Meh after know no fear the ultramarines are the best legion, so what ever floats your boat mang


----------



## Beaviz81

Garviel loken. said:


> Meh after know no fear the ultramarines are the best legion, so what ever floats your boat mang


I have always thought that to be their opinion of themselves.


----------



## Garviel loken.

Beaviz81 said:


> I have always thought that to be their opinion of themselves.


One cannot deny that know no fear brought the ultramarines in a much better light


----------



## Beaviz81

Garviel loken. said:


> One cannot deny that know no fear brought the ultramarines in a much better light


They are sympathetic, but still extremely full of themselves as shown in the early chapters. And many people forget Abnett is a POV-writer.


----------



## Garviel loken.

Beaviz81 said:


> They are sympathetic, but still extremely full of themselves as shown in the early chapters. And many people forget Abnett is a POV-writer.


There sympathy is why i love them in 30k. They care about the humans they fight for. They dont seem that full of themselves at all imo. Yes they think for themselves unlike other legions (theoretical, practical) but what are you referring to when you say they are full of themselves?


----------



## Beaviz81

Garviel loken. said:


> There sympathy is why i love them in 30k. They care about the humans they fight for. They dont seem that full of themselves at all imo. Yes they think for themselves unlike other legions (theoretical, practical) but what are you referring to when you say they are full of themselves?


Well you have where Abnett is describing how great Guilliman is, it seems omnipotent at first, but then suddenly he for no good reasons starts to think himself and then you realize he is sitting there in his office complimenting himself, so you are looking at a guy thinking he is everything his brothers ain't, and you have Thiel of course.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Garviel loken. said:


> Meh after know no fear the ultramarines are the best legion, so what ever floats your boat mang


How do you figure? They have arguably lost practically every single battle we've seen them in so far. Sure they didn't exactly lose Calth, but they sure as hell didn't win either. The Word Bearers sent there were utterly expendable to Lorgar, and even if they did beat them back, they were still mauled beyond belief, much more than the Word Bearers as a Legion were, and Calth, was lost for all intents and purposes. At Armatura, they lost, despite it being one of their most heavily defended worlds. At Nuceria, they lost. Many, many more planets of the Five Hundred Worlds, were ravaged by the combined forces of the XII and XVII Legions. 

On Macragge itself they would have suffered much, much more at the hands of Curze if it wasn't for the combined, though sometimes separate efforts of Jonson and the portion of his legion with him, a lone complexly loyal Word Bearer, an Imperial Fist and Iron Warrior duo, a few squads of White Scars and Space Wolves, a rampaging insane Vulkan and a couple of perpetuals to mix it up as well. 

And ultimately, we know that they do nothing in the Siege of Terra.

So yeah, great at fighting back once they've been kicked into the ground, but far from the best legion. The novel was complete shite imo, but the Blood Angels entered and cleansed a deamon infested system and emerged relatively intact at the end of the ordeal. For just one example of other legions doing better than the XIII.


----------



## Beaviz81

Angel of Blood said:


> And ultimately, we know that they do nothing in the Siege of Terra.


Don't write such a challenge. A lameass author from GW might read this and place them in the heart of the fight. :S

Other than that I agree with you.


----------



## Garviel loken.

Beaviz81 said:


> Well you have where Abnett is describing how great Guilliman is, it seems omnipotent at first, but then suddenly he for no good reasons starts to think himself and then you realize he is sitting there in his office complimenting himself, so you are looking at a guy thinking he is everything his brothers ain't, and you have Thiel of course.


Abnett was describing how good of a thinker guilliman was, which he was. What was wrong with thiel?


----------



## Garviel loken.

Angel of Blood said:


> How do you figure? They have arguably lost practically every single battle we've seen them in so far. Sure they didn't exactly lose Calth, but they sure as hell didn't win either. The Word Bearers sent there were utterly expendable to Lorgar, and even if they did beat them back, they were still mauled beyond belief, much more than the Word Bearers as a Legion were, and Calth, was lost for all intents and purposes. At Armatura, they lost, despite it being one of their most heavily defended worlds. At Nuceria, they lost. Many, many more planets of the Five Hundred Worlds, were ravaged by the combined forces of the XII and XVII Legions.
> 
> On Macragge itself they would have suffered much, much more at the hands of Curze if it wasn't for the combined, though sometimes separate efforts of Jonson and the portion of his legion with him, a lone complexly loyal Word Bearer, an Imperial Fist and Iron Warrior duo, a few squads of White Scars and Space Wolves, a rampaging insane Vulkan and a couple of perpetuals to mix it up as well.
> 
> And ultimately, we know that they do nothing in the Siege of Terra.
> 
> So yeah, great at fighting back once they've been kicked into the ground, but far from the best legion. The novel was complete shite imo, but the Blood Angels entered and cleansed a deamon infested system and emerged relatively intact at the end of the ordeal. For just one example of other legions doing better than the XIII.


lol i didnt mean most skilled, rather best portrayed. They lost a good 100 000 men on calth to supposed allies, and many of them even got the chance to fire back. There fleet was destroyed as their supposed allies started obliterating it, and they could do nothing as their ships were powered down. Ventanus sucessfully counter attacked, with barely a fleet, and barely any comms. Sounds pretty good to me. Oh and the underworld war, they won that. Armatura, they faced 2 legions, 2 primarchs, and a massive fleet. Nuceria they were once again against 2 legions. And dont forget the ultramarines fleet is severly crippled. Many other legions do nothing at terra, and ADB himself said the most exciting thing for the ultramarines is yet to come, so i cant wait for it  And knf is one of the most highly acclaimed novels in the series. Ultramarine haters are gonna hate, whatever  Oh and have we forgotten about the scouring?


----------



## Angel of Blood

I don't hate the Ultramarines, not even slightly. I don't like their 40k counterparts too much, but the XIII Legion are right up there in my estimates. I just don't think they're the best by a long shot.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

I think you are making the mistake of thinking that because KNF is one of the best HH novels(I will concede that it is), that makes the UMs one of the best legions. All they've done so far is take a kicking, and withdraw from the fight to lick their wounds. They have been out thought and out fought at every turn, and pretty much removed as a force of any real influence from here on in.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Garviel loken. said:


> Oh and have we forgotten about the scouring?


What does the Scouring have to do with anything as well? You can't attribute their power during that time with any real fairness to the other loyalist Legions. 

Raven Guard, Iron Hands and Salamanders - Massacred at Istvaan V
Space Wolves - Not a huge Legion in the first place. Serious losses at the Burning of Prospero, ambush at Alaxxes, likely more battles and likely took losses when securing the Sol system.
Dark Angels - Thramas Crusade would have taken quite a toll, like the Wolves, casualties securing the Sol system, then huge chunk of the Legion turn on them.
White Scars, Blood Angels and Imperial Fists - All take extremely heavy losses during the Siege of Terra.
Ultramarines - After the early onslaught of the Shadow Crusade, as far as we know, left relatively untouched. Largest Legion before the Heresy by a long shot.


----------



## Beaviz81

Garviel loken. said:


> Abnett was describing how good of a thinker guilliman was, which he was. What was wrong with thiel?


Guilliman really has a high opinion about himself, and Thiel is Matt Ward in WH30k.


----------



## Marauderlegion

Khorne's Fist said:


> All they've done so far is take a kicking, and withdraw from the fight to lick their wounds. They have been out thought and out fought at every turn, and pretty much removed as a force of any real influence from here on in.


I'm not a UM fan by a long shot, but to be frank, how much of that is predetermined from "history" from before the HH stuff got started?

If it wasn't predetermined that some of that stuff happens to them, then it could be called author fiat or deus ex machina (which the narrative of the HH certainly can be attributed as from many angles).

HH has done a lot, I think to surprise us and hide "the truth" in the fragmentary history of 40K, but I think stuff as big as removing the UMs from the main loyalist effort had to happen somehow, as did the whittling down of the legion.


----------



## Garviel loken.

Khorne's Fist said:


> I think you are making the mistake of thinking that because KNF is one of the best HH novels(I will concede that it is), that makes the UMs one of the best legions. All they've done so far is take a kicking, and withdraw from the fight to lick their wounds. They have been out thought and out fought at every turn, and pretty much removed as a force of any real influence from here on in.


I don't think they are "the best". I mean I am a son of guilliman, so I have bias towards them,(thus my defence of them). We can't say they have been removed as a force yet. There is still a lot if heresy left so we will see what happens


----------



## Garviel loken.

Beaviz81 said:


> Garviel loken. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abnett was describing how good of a thinker guilliman was, which he was. What was wrong with thiel?
> 
> 
> 
> Guilliman really has a high opinion about himself, and Thiel is Matt Ward in WH30k.
Click to expand...

Don't most primarchs have high opinions of themselves? You are. Going to have to elaborate on how thiel is Matt ward.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Garviel loken. said:


> Meh after know no fear the ultramarines are the best legion, so what ever floats your boat mang





Angel of Blood said:


> How do you figure? They have arguably lost practically every single battle we've seen them in so far. Sure they didn't exactly lose Calth, but they sure as hell didn't win either. The Word Bearers sent there were utterly expendable to Lorgar, and even if they did beat them back, they were still mauled beyond belief, much more than the Word Bearers as a Legion were, and Calth, was lost for all intents and purposes. At Armatura, they lost, despite it being one of their most heavily defended worlds. At Nuceria, they lost. Many, many more planets of the Five Hundred Worlds, were ravaged by the combined forces of the XII and XVII Legions.
> 
> On Macragge itself they would have suffered much, much more at the hands of Curze if it wasn't for the combined, though sometimes separate efforts of Jonson and the portion of his legion with him, a lone complexly loyal Word Bearer, an Imperial Fist and Iron Warrior duo, a few squads of White Scars and Space Wolves, a rampaging insane Vulkan and a couple of perpetuals to mix it up as well.
> 
> And ultimately, we know that they do nothing in the Siege of Terra.
> 
> So yeah, great at fighting back once they've been kicked into the ground, but far from the best legion. The novel was complete shite imo, but the Blood Angels entered and cleansed a deamon infested system and emerged relatively intact at the end of the ordeal. For just one example of other legions doing better than the XIII.


To be fair though _Angel_, you can't really hold Calth, the Shadow Crusade or the skirmish on Macragge against the XIII given the context. Any Legion would have been sent reeling and most wouldn't have been able to organise such an affective counter-attack as the Ultramarines did. 

I don't think the Ultramarines were the "best" Legion, but then I don't think any Legion was the "best". Such talk is meaningless really.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> To be fair though _Angel_, you can't really hold Calth, the Shadow Crusade or the skirmish on Macragge against the XIII given the context. Any Legion would have been sent reeling and most wouldn't have been able to organise such an affective counter-attack as the Ultramarines did.


Agreed, as I said, I like the 30k Ultramarines and like how they operate. But I just failed to see how they could be interpreted as the best legion, before Loken clarified what he meant anyway. And yeah, there is no 'best' Legion.


----------



## Beaviz81

Garviel loken. said:


> Don't most primarchs have high opinions of themselves? You are. Going to have to elaborate on how thiel is Matt ward.


I thought you had read the story. Thiel runs around thinking Guilliman should be Warmaster and that the Ultramarines is the best legion, and Guilliman describes himself as handsome which was a crowning moment of funny by itself I mean he is sitting there thinking himself as having traits from all his brothers and that makes him handsome.


----------



## Terricus

Guilliman is a grea primarch and would definately be boon to the imperium. But, in order for any significant help they would need like 3 primarchs atleast to help stim the tide. Russ is exactly what they need right now, the walls are closing in on the imperium and the enemy is at the gates. Their enemy is legion and they need not one but multiple heroes on this scale to atleast cause a true stalemate.


----------



## Garviel loken.

Beaviz81 said:


> Garviel loken. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't most primarchs have high opinions of themselves? You are. Going to have to elaborate on how thiel is Matt ward.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought you had read the story. Thiel runs around thinking Guilliman should be Warmaster and that the Ultramarines is the best legion, and Guilliman describes himself as handsome which was a crowning moment of funny by itself I mean he is sitting there thinking himself as having traits from all his brothers and that makes him handsome.
Click to expand...

Guilliman didn't call himself handsome, abnett did to describe him...and I don't recall thiel saying he thought guilliman should be warmaster, but if he did so did a lot of other legionairies in other legions


----------



## Garviel loken.

Angel of Blood said:


> Child-of-the-Emperor said:
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair though _Angel_, you can't really hold Calth, the Shadow Crusade or the skirmish on Macragge against the XIII given the context. Any Legion would have been sent reeling and most wouldn't have been able to organise such an affective counter-attack as the Ultramarines did.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, as I said, I like the 30k Ultramarines and like how they operate. But I just failed to see how they could be interpreted as the best legion, before Loken clarified what he meant anyway. And yeah, there is no 'best' Legion.
Click to expand...

Yeah sorry for the misunderstanding. I don't think there is a most skilled legion.


----------



## Beaviz81

Garviel loken. said:


> Guilliman didn't call himself handsome, abnett did to describe him...and I don't recall thiel saying he thought guilliman should be warmaster, but if he did so did a lot of other legionairies in other legions


Then you have failed to read Thiel's opinions, and Abnett started off seemingly omnipotent, but he switched and its a reflection of what Guilliman thought as he is a POV-writer.


----------



## Garviel loken.

Beaviz81 said:


> Garviel loken. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Guilliman didn't call himself handsome, abnett did to describe him...and I don't recall thiel saying he thought guilliman should be warmaster, but if he did so did a lot of other legionairies in other legions
> 
> 
> 
> Then you have failed to read Thiel's opinions, and Abnett started off seemingly omnipotent, but he switched and its a reflection of what Guilliman thought as he is a POV-writer.
Click to expand...

Could you please reference the parts about thiel.


----------



## Beaviz81

Garviel loken. said:


> Could you please reference the parts about thiel.


Ok.



Horus is a great man. Thiel is not ashamed to admit that. Thiel has seen him, served with him, admired him. His selection as Warmaster makes reasonable sense. It was only going to be one of three or perhaps four, no matter how other primarchs might deceive themselves. To be the Emperor’s avatar, his proxy? Only Horus, Guilliman, Sanguinius, perhaps Dorn. Any other claims for viability were delusional. Even narrowed down to four, Dorn was too draconian and Sanguinius too ethereal. It was only ever going to be Horus or Guilliman. Horus always had the passion and the charisma. Guilliman was more clinical, considered. Perhaps that tipped it. So did, perhaps, the fact that Guilliman already had responsibilities. An empire, half-built. Ultramar. Administration. Populations. A culture. Guilliman had already evolved beyond the status of warlord, where Horus was still a killer of worlds and a subjugator of adversaries.
Maybe Warmaster Horus is aware of this disparity, that even in his triumphant election, he has been outstripped by a brother who does not even want for the honour of Warmaster any more. Perhaps that is why Horus needs to exercise his authority and give orders to the XIII. Perhaps that is why he is conjoining them with the XVII, a Legion they have never been comfortable with.


And here.



Or perhaps the new Warmaster is rather more creative than that, and sees this as a chance for Lorgar’s rabble to borrow a little gloss from Guilliman’s glory by association and example.
Aeonid Thiel, Ultramarine, has said these thoughts out loud.
They are not the reason he is marked for discipline and censure.


I at least tried adding the spoilers. I guess I shall get points for that.


----------



## Squire

Beaviz81 said:


> I at least tried adding the spoilers. I guess I shall get points for that.




I think if you try removing the full stop and semi colon from the first of the spoiler tags they should work


^Confirmed


----------



## Beaviz81

Squire said:


> I think if you try removing the full stop and semi colon from the first of the spoiler tags they should work
> 
> 
> ^Confirmed


Ah thank you.


----------



## Garviel loken.

Beaviz81 said:


> Garviel loken. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could you please reference the parts about thiel.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok.
> 
> 
> 
> Horus is a great man. Thiel is not ashamed to admit that. Thiel has seen him, served with him, admired him. His selection as Warmaster makes reasonable sense. It was only going to be one of three or perhaps four, no matter how other primarchs might deceive themselves. To be the Emperor’s avatar, his proxy? Only Horus, Guilliman, Sanguinius, perhaps Dorn. Any other claims for viability were delusional. Even narrowed down to four, Dorn was too draconian and Sanguinius too ethereal. It was only ever going to be Horus or Guilliman. Horus always had the passion and the charisma. Guilliman was more clinical, considered. Perhaps that tipped it. So did, perhaps, the fact that Guilliman already had responsibilities. An empire, half-built. Ultramar. Administration. Populations. A culture. Guilliman had already evolved beyond the status of warlord, where Horus was still a killer of worlds and a subjugator of adversaries.
> Maybe Warmaster Horus is aware of this disparity, that even in his triumphant election, he has been outstripped by a brother who does not even want for the honour of Warmaster any more. Perhaps that is why Horus needs to exercise his authority and give orders to the XIII. Perhaps that is why he is conjoining them with the XVII, a Legion they have never been comfortable with.
> 
> 
> And here.
> 
> 
> 
> Or perhaps the new Warmaster is rather more creative than that, and sees this as a chance for Lorgar’s rabble to borrow a little gloss from Guilliman’s glory by association and example.
> Aeonid Thiel, Ultramarine, has said these thoughts out loud.
> They are not the reason he is marked for discipline and censure.
> 
> 
> I at least tried adding the spoilers. I guess I shall get points for that.
Click to expand...

I don't see how that makes thiel Matt ward. I mean it's a logical statement, everything is true that was said. Ultramarine haters will use anything they can to try and bring them down


----------



## Beaviz81

Garviel loken. said:


> I don't see how that makes thiel Matt ward. I mean it's a logical statement, everything is true that was said. Ultramarine haters will use anything they can to try and bring them down


And the Ultramarine-fans would use anything to make them sound like gods and Mary Sues. I'm sorry, but the least trustworthy source I can encounter online is an Ultramarine-fan because you are so willing to gloss over the bad parts while you only quote the parts that serve you.

And that's saying a lot as I'm into NHL and you lot are even more deranged than Toronto Maple Leaf-fans. And trust me, that's not a compliment.


----------



## Vaz

Everytime I read one of Beaviz' posts. Good grief, what a bore.


----------



## Beaviz81

Seriously Vaz. I have you put on ignore for a reason, stop contacting me.


----------



## Vaz

Evidently you didn't. And I'm not contacting you. I'm just alerting the forum to your general deficiencies in debating, resorting to ridiculous pseudo ad hominems to defend your own indefensible point of view which is not supported in the text. Stop strawmanning, and being a general disease on the forum and you might be taken a bit more seriously.


----------



## Garviel loken.

Beaviz81 said:


> And the Ultramarine-fans would use anything to make them sound like gods and Mary Sues. I'm sorry, but the least trustworthy source I can encounter online is an Ultramarine-fan because you are so willing to gloss over the bad parts while you only quote the parts that serve you.
> 
> And that's saying a lot as I'm into NHL and you lot are even more deranged than Toronto Maple Leaf-fans. And trust me, that's not a compliment.


Way to bring down an entire fanbase. In Horus rising Loken,(or was it tarik) said the luna wolves are the best legion. I guess they are matt ward too. The quote you provided about thiel did not imply at all that he is matt ward, all it implied is that he thinks highly of guilliman. Hell even sorot tchure thought highly of guilliman and he was a WB.


----------



## ntaw

Beaviz81 said:


> And the Ultramarine-fans would use anything to make them sound like gods and Mary Sues. I'm sorry, but the least trustworthy source I can encounter online is an Ultramarine-fan because you are so willing to gloss over the bad parts while you only quote the parts that serve you.
> 
> And that's saying a lot as I'm into NHL and you lot are even more deranged than Toronto Maple Leaf-fans. And trust me, that's not a compliment.


Not that I have been massively involved in this thread aside from following it, but damn dude. Way to invalidate yourself by making personal attacks.


----------



## Beaviz81

Garviel loken. said:


> Way to bring down an entire fanbase. In Horus rising Loken,(or was it tarik) said the luna wolves are the best legion. I guess they are matt ward too. The quote you provided about thiel did not imply at all that he is matt ward, all it implied is that he thinks highly of guilliman. Hell even sorot tchure thought highly of guilliman and he was a WB.


It's how I think about you (Ultramarine-fans) in general, sorry years of not-great experiences have influenced me, and Thiel is a fanboi which you are comparing with other fanbois.


----------



## Beaviz81

ntaw said:


> Not that I have been massively involved in this thread aside from following it, but damn dude. Way to invalidate yourself by making personal attacks.


It's a personal attack? Did you see what the other guy wrote? I gave an answer in kind. And it's the truth. At least how I see it.


----------



## Vaz

If there's anything worse that an Ultramarine "fanbois" it's those anti-Ultramarine "fanbois".

Get out.


----------



## Garviel loken.

Vaz said:


> If there's anything worse that an Ultramarine "fanbois" it's those anti-Ultramarine "fanbois".
> 
> Get out.


After years of ultramarine hate, i have gotten use to it, but support is always nice!


----------



## Angel of Blood

Garviel loken. said:


> I mean it's a logical statement, everything is true that was said. Ultramarine haters will use anything they can to try and bring them down





Garviel loken. said:


> After years of ultramarine hate, i have gotten use to it, but support is always nice!


Whilst Beaviz may be a little too overt and unsubtle in his replies. That post there reeks of fanboyism. To say that everything Theil said was true is a little much, it was a beyond biased appraisal of the Warmaster position, as of course it would be, he's an Ultramarine. There are huge arguments for Sanguinius being Warmaster, and yet Thiel quite happily dismisses him over Guilliman, same for Dorn. Yet he fails to address the reasons against Guilliman. 

Instead of him being seen as too rigid perhaps by the others(even if it isn't exactly the case), too uptight and not liked by all his peers or disregarding the Alpha Legion because he doesn't agree with their method of war, despite the results. Instead, he dismisses Guilliman because essentially, he's too good for the position. I mean that's really what he's saying, he believes Guilliman was not made Warmaster because "Guilliman had already evolved beyond the status of warlord", it can be seen in a few ways, but that reads to me like Thiel believes the position to be beneath Guilliman now.

And then the following quote about how Horus was perhaps aware that Guilliman was better than the position, that he didn't even care for it in such an off hand way, that Horus was petty enough to command the XIII around because of this, not simply because they were in fact now under his command, like all the other Legions.

Again, I like the XIII, I like Roboute, I even like Thiel. But that assessment by Thiel is a little much.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Angel of Blood said:


> Again, I like the XIII, I like Roboute, I even like Thiel. But that assessment by Thiel is a little much.


Although Thiel obviously isn't an unbiased source, I do agree with his assessment of the choice of Warmaster.


----------



## Garviel loken.

Angel of Blood said:


> Garviel loken. said:
> 
> 
> 
> I mean it's a logical statement, everything is true that was said. Ultramarine haters will use anything they can to try and bring them down
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Garviel loken. said:
> 
> 
> 
> After years of ultramarine hate, i have gotten use to it, but support is always nice!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whilst Beaviz may be a little too overt and unsubtle in his replies. That post there reeks of fanboyism. To say that everything Theil said was true is a little much, it was a beyond biased appraisal of the Warmaster position, as of course it would be, he's an Ultramarine. There are huge arguments for Sanguinius being Warmaster, and yet Thiel quite happily dismisses him over Guilliman, same for Dorn. Yet he fails to address the reasons against Guilliman.
> 
> Instead of him being seen as too rigid perhaps by the others(even if it isn't exactly the case), too uptight and not liked by all his peers or disregarding the Alpha Legion because he doesn't agree with their method of war, despite the results. Instead, he dismisses Guilliman because essentially, he's too good for the position. I mean that's really what he's saying, he believes Guilliman was not made Warmaster because "Guilliman had already evolved beyond the status of warlord", it can be seen in a few ways, but that reads to me like Thiel believes the position to be beneath Guilliman now.
> 
> And then the following quote about how Horus was perhaps aware that Guilliman was better than the position, that he didn't even care for it in such an off hand way, that Horus was petty enough to command the XIII around because of this, not simply because they were in fact now under his command, like all the other Legions.
> 
> Again, I like the XIII, I like Roboute, I even like Thiel. But that assessment by Thiel is a little much.
Click to expand...

Yes I am an ultramarine fan. No I am not a fanboy, I am just sick as fuck of people bringing them down. Like I said what thiel sad made logical sense. Guilliman already had his own empire. Yes thiel was biased in his opinions, but like I said before so would many astartes. This all started when they other guy said thiel was Matt ward. I don't disagree at all with thiel statements. Guilliman had evolved beyond warlord in the sense he had other duties other than war. Is this not true?


----------



## ckcrawford

I will say I am pretty impressed by how the Ultramarines are being used and portrayed in the Heresy. They aren't the angel goodie two-shoes legion they were sought out to be. I understand the Ultramarine dislike. They own 3/5's of the genetic Astartes Chapters make up. That along with the Ultramarines Series with Uriel that was pretty much the only series for a very long time(still has remained the longest by the way). Has there been any other Chapter that has looked as good as the Ultramarines in fluff? The answer is absolutely not.

I think if you like the Ultramarines you really shouldn't let those who dislike them get to you. Haters gonna hate right? If I were you I'd go read some Graham McNeil Ultramarine porn. It will remind you how invincible that chapter truly is. Watch Uriel cut through 50 veteran chaos marines and then stick a knife into a daemon prince and kill him. If the Chapters I liked could do anything like that I wouldn't be pissed by the haters. That's a bit ridiculous.


----------



## Beaviz81

I don't hate the Ultramarines, but I can't give a rat's ass about their fanbase. Lets be clear on that. And also I don't like Guilliman one bit as he seems to always be better than Empy or anyone else, especially other Primarches like Dorn or Russ which from whom have stemmed legions/chapters I actually love. Plus I'm a fanatic when it comes to Empy, that I happily admit.

I don't mind Thiel, he is a POV-char, and seeing Guilliman describe himself as handsome was downright hilarious. At least Abnett manages to provide fun in any circumstance.


----------



## Garviel loken.

Beaviz81 said:


> I don't hate the Ultramarines, but I can't give a rat's ass about their fanbase. Lets be clear on that. And also I don't like Guilliman one bit as he seems to always be better than Empy or anyone else, especially other Primarches like Dorn or Russ which from whom have stemmed legions/chapters I actually love. Plus I'm a fanatic when it comes to Empy, that I happily admit.
> 
> I don't mind Thiel, he is a POV-char, and seeing Guilliman describe himself as handsome was downright hilarious. At least Abnett manages to provide fun in any circumstance.


The ultramarones fanbase consists of 2 types of people from my expierience. New comers who dont know much about the lore, and hardcore fans like myself. And i dont mind if you dont like the ultramarines or not, i just dont like when i see people trying to bring them down, thats all. I dont think guilliman has been portrayed as being the best, i mean sure he is a tactical genius, but he has been laid low multiple times.


----------



## Zion

It seems that some members are forgetting the rules. *Treat each other nicely before we have to start smacking people over the head for acting like idiots. Play nice children.*


----------



## Over Two Meters Tall!

Beaviz81 said:


> I don't mind Thiel, he is a POV-char, and seeing Guilliman describe himself as handsome was downright hilarious. At least Abnett manages to provide fun in any circumstance.


Well, I suppose it's because Guilliman didn't have any female aristocrat character creaming in her panties at the sight of him, like Horus did in Horus Rising. Otherwise, how are we supposed to know the overwhelming beauty of a Primarch without at least the Primarch themselves to tell us? :laugh:


----------



## locustgate

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Well, I suppose it's because Guilliman didn't have any female aristocrat character creaming in her panties at the sight of him, like Horus did in Horus Rising. Otherwise, how are we supposed to know the overwhelming beauty of a Primarch without at least the Primarch themselves to tell us? :laugh:


Gilman always struck me as someone that.....had a very high opinion of himself..


----------



## Reaper45

locustgate said:


> Gilman always struck me as someone that.....had a very high opinion of himself..


He's a primarch, it's sort of part of the job description for them to be full of themselves.

In fact the only ones not full of themselves are Vulkan, Angron and perhaps Russ.


----------



## locustgate

Reaper45 said:


> He's a primarch, it's sort of part of the job description for them to be full of themselves.
> 
> In fact the only ones not full of themselves are Vulkan, Angron and perhaps Russ.


By primarch standards. These always seemed like something the primarchs would say:
Fulgrim: "Who wouldn't fuck me"
Gillyman: "I'm the best"
Night Haunter: "My life sucks....I wish I would die"
you can probably guess the rest.


----------



## Terricus

Mortarion "what's soap?"


----------



## locustgate

Terricus said:


> Mortarion "what's soap?"


Post demonicafation(word?). Before it would be "*sniff*What smell"


----------



## Beaviz81

Garviel loken. said:


> The ultramarones fanbase consists of 2 types of people from my expierience. New comers who dont know much about the lore, and hardcore fans like myself. And i dont mind if you dont like the ultramarines or not, i just dont like when i see people trying to bring them down, thats all. I dont think guilliman has been portrayed as being the best, i mean sure he is a tactical genius, but he has been laid low multiple times.


You are spot on with the two types. You have hardcore fans which in my opinion want the Ultras to be perfect, even though them themselves decries otherwise. And the newbies.



locustgate said:


> Gilman always struck me as someone that.....had a very high opinion of himself..


Haha, yeah that has always been my impression about almost any Primarch, but Guilliman even more so than most.



Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Well, I suppose it's because Guilliman didn't have any female aristocrat character creaming in her panties at the sight of him, like Horus did in Horus Rising. Otherwise, how are we supposed to know the overwhelming beauty of a Primarch without at least the Primarch themselves to tell us?


Hahahaha. In which book was that written, as I certainly must read that.


----------



## Beaviz81

locustgate said:


> By primarch standards. These always seemed like something the primarchs would say:
> Fulgrim: "Who wouldn't fuck me"
> Gillyman: "I'm the best"
> Night Haunter: "My life sucks....I wish I would die"
> you can probably guess the rest.
> __________________


Leman Russ: Woof, woof.


----------



## Terricus

Alpharius: "I am Alpharius" 
Everyone looks at him: "OMG, nobody cares!"


----------



## locustgate

Beaviz81 said:


> Leman Russ: Woof, woof.


Thought it would be more "Growl.....YAP YAP YAP!!!"


Terricus said:


> Alpharius: "I am Alpharius"
> Everyone looks at him: "OMG, nobody cares!"


Pretty much


----------



## Vaz

Please, Vulkan's as full of himself as any others, thinking he's much better because he gives a shit about humanity - from our point of view that's fine, but he might as well give a shit about all the ants he's standing on when he walks for all the good that is - it is self aggrandisement and he's too stupid to realise (or rather, Kyme's writing of him is - notice that there's barely been anyone else to write about him other than that terrible book "The Unremembered Empire" which was trying to collate the stories together, and came across as little more than flowery minute notes on a Horus Heresy boardroom meeting). 

Angron's a selfish little wench, and Russ feels free to act as if he's the Emperor's own right hand, interpreting orders however he feels. They are all full of themselves, and fanboyism is nothing to do with it.

Curze is the one outlier in the sense that he is breaking the fourth wall/lampshading almost to the extent of "I am the greatest! I am a cunt as well, but I am the greatest at being a cunt as well, and I do not care. Mother fuckers. And my legion? They're bellends too. Whatcha gonna do about it?" That (and Sevatar (you'll never guess how I got here/the rats did it, are the two greatest lines I have ever read in a warhammer novel) is what makes the Night Lords unique, and among the most interesting legions in 30k. The Alpha Legion are pretty much the definition of arrogance, where their tactics and drawn out style of warfare is done "just because they can" - Rowboat himself decrying that their need to make a statement costing them valuable time in the great crusade. That's egotistical bar none - but then again, according to the perceived pomposity of the Ultra's Primarch, that wouldn't have come across.

In short, we get opinionated views only. Saying one is more valid than the other is ridiculous, and saying "I don't believe you because you're a fanboy" is ad hominem and one of the biggest fallacies of debating, discredicting all you can say. Ask for quotes to back it up.

So, we get opinionated views, or we don't - those who have no agenda either way will not offer an opinion on them. One who has fought alongside them might have his opinion coloured on them in a way that was a result of the fighting - similar to how Curze and Vulkan have a feud.

In regards to the Ultra's losses - they weren't "defeats" in that they were able to take such losses and fight back. I'd struggle to see another legion, take such losses and psychological hits as they suffered, and come back fighting - the Alpha Legion, Death Guard and maybe a Horus led Sons of Horus out of the ones we have had a bit of insight into. Maybe a Dorn led Imperial Fists. We've not had enough information on the Dark Angels to make a statement over; but Blood Angels I think would struggle (prone to melancholy), World Eaters, while wouldn't give a shit could be pocketed and isolated and destroyed peicemeal, Iron Hands similar, Salamanders I personally feel lack he required "stuff/mentality" to be able to come out victorious in such a situation. Night Lords, and Raven Guard would probably bug out as soon as possible - maybe commiting a guerilla war in return, but would struggle to mount an effective counter attack. Emperor's Children - they tend to go to pieces if their whole perfect strike thing doesn't go to plan, pretty much the ultimate glass cannon. Iron Warriors, seem to work best with having everything in order, and don't seem to do well with unexpected situations. The White Scars own autonomy would see them similar to the Night Lords/Raven Guard, I think.

Due to how Horus is, I think he'd be able to muster an effectively brutal counter attack, the Alpha Legion are fairly autonomous in their entire outlook - if they didn't already know about it due to their layers-on-layers-shrek-is-love-shrek-is-life like plans and contingencies would have something ready for it. The Death Guard are just notoriously resilient and are used to taking extremely horrific casualties and then coming back and winning after expending the enemy's will to fight. Dorn's fists under him - well, defending is his thing. Regrouping to the next strongpoint, and defensive counters/sallies, he could sap the strength and channel them into where he wishes them to go.


----------



## Beaviz81

locustgate said:


> Thought it would be more "Growl.....YAP YAP YAP!!!"


He is a wolf, not a freaking chihuahua.


----------



## Garviel loken.

to be honest i find guilliman quite attractive....look at his face on know no fear. his hair is so perfect


----------



## Beaviz81

Have there ever been a plain-looking Space Marine or Primarch? Except maybe Haegr? I mean even the balding Vulkan can be described as good-looking.


----------



## locustgate

Beaviz81 said:


> He is a wolf, not a freaking chihuahua.


"There are no wolves on Fenris.......Only chihuahuas."


----------



## Beaviz81

locustgate said:


> "There are no wolves on Fenris.......Only chihuahuas."


Space Chihuahuas has a fun ring to it. I mean that would be a great read, never mind depictions if you had them getting instead of wolf-like mutations you got chihuahua-like mutations, though I would likely sort it under Brighthammer.


----------



## locustgate

Beaviz81 said:


> Space Chihuahuas has a fun ring to it. I mean that would be a great read, never mind depictions if you had them getting instead of wolf-like mutations you got chihuahua-like mutations, though I would likely sort it under Brighthammer.


There would of been no heresy because everyone would of hated em, also we would have a net of 1 legion.


----------



## Achaylus72

I voted yes only so that he his killed outright by Daemon Prince Achaylus "Bonecrusher" Ro'Ko'Han current Deamon Primarch of 2nd Sea Eagles Legion.


----------



## TheV0791

So the whole Guilliman taking charge vs. the paranoid leaders of the imperium. Since this is all opinionated fluff anyways (seeded from facts that we've read about in the novels). I'd personally believe that they'd use Guilliman to the best of their ability to defend the imperium 'their asses', then if the coast is clear they all backstab him and try to return to their pompous lives, though possibly having created a Civil War following the death of one of the Emperor's Primarchs.

You can't say that this wouldn't happen, cuz none of the outcomes stated yet have actually happened , but I'm personally a fan of the whole Braveheart 'betrayal' story. Also regardless of Guilliman 'rallying' all of the space marine chapters, I know my Crimson Fists XIth Company would join him, as it is the Emperor's will.


----------



## Vaz

Beaviz81 said:


> Have there ever been a plain-looking Space Marine or Primarch? Except maybe Haegr? I mean even the balding Vulkan can be described as good-looking.


The Space Wolf novels of Bill Kings era are effectively retconned and ignored. The game and story has has advanced 12 years since then. Similar to how the rest of William Kings work has been forgotten and ignored in all but the spirit - Gotrek and Felix has a wibbly wobbly timey wimey moment - which soon turned around when it was just completely ignored by the continuation writers (although admittedly, I've not read much after the original run of books - after reading a review of Zombieslayer I kind of flipped shit), the Shadow-point and Execution Hour novels regarding the Gothic War contain information which is frequently countered in new fluff.

If you're willing to count such old fluff, you can count Sigmar as the lost Primarch, Chaos Space Marines in Warhammer Fantasy, Space Marines using Eldar weaponry, the Necrons were similar the galaxies version of a super effective Norton antivirus (everything a virus, but this time, it actually manages to defeat them), the C'Tan themselves could take the battlefield, Genestealer cults actually occur (these have been squatted - there's no mention of them IIRC in the latest nid dex' since perhaps 4th, if not 3rd edition)...

In regards to defining someone as plain - they can't be defined as "plain". Either they're lacking a description, instead relying on their job or role or actions to define themselves, in as much as their name and equipment (might as well call the guy with the Heavy Bolter "the Heavy" as near enough in every book, he's the same character with the same outlook and attitude, only a different name and appearance to make him different), same for "melee guy", and "sergeant", and "the cherry", and "the old timer", and "mr flash", or whatever other bank job tvtropes trawl you can come up with. Every once in a while we might get "Magnificent Bastard" (Sevatar), or someone else who makes a defining character, but as for appearances, they're pretty much limited to the differences in the armour, or from a human perspective - where all they can see is the armour, or how that all of the space marines share the same appearance - and their abnormal difference from humans.

Read Brothers of the Snake - it is one which makes a bit of a point about that, where the Astartes land on a planet and the human administrator says that they all look the same, but that Priad wonders how she can say that when one is tall and thin, one is stocky, etc, but short of opinionated point of view characters, we don't get that.

Mostly, when it's regarding something beautiful or disgusting, it's to make the reader know about the things they're killing - whether it's the lithe, beautiful daemonette, or the puking monstrosity of a plague marine. Very rarely is beautiful used in any term in 40K literature.

That a human would consider a Primarch to be beautiful says a lot - there's a lot of psychological research which has gone into love and attraction - and simply put in a pithy sound bite, power attracts - and there are few more powerful than a Primarch. For someone to spend so much time around them, they are going to be open to having more than professional thoughts - such as more about how they're acting thinking etc. You don't need to be the most beautiful looking person to fall in love, but the opinion of one who is in love is going to ignore percieved cultural "flaws" and see it as a thing of beauty - i.e Scars, or piercings, or tattoos, or beards, oddly coloured eyes, etc. If you fancy someone who is a 6/10, then when you fancy them, your opinion is that they're an 8.

What I find notable though is that a Primarch, who is to a Space Marine what an Astartes is to a woman can quite easily see a height difference, especially when booted and suited of maybe twice the height of a small human (perfect height, giggity). In the literature, most space marines are noted as being ugly, with lumpen, mishapen heads, overly broad and packed with slabs of muscle - maybe along the lines of something like Kai Greene 










If you make him another 2 foot taller and twice as wide, with a fused ribcage, implanted subcutaneous (as I understand it) Black Carapace which (again, as I understand it) is capable of withstanding the impact of a bullet (similar to maybe today's lighter bullet proof vests in resistance, so not capable of preventing an assault rifle/armour piercing, but lighter rounds and preventing damage to internals from already slowed down shots. Bear in mind Kai Greene is in Bodybuilding for aesthetics, so will have built his body around the ideal of what is considered good lucking - so there will be mirroring and obviously a vast diet and supplement regime to keep him in shape to show off the striations and muscle valleys in the body.

A Primarch, on the other hand, is going to have been created in the image of the emperor, and vat grown - they are going to be far more human than an astartes is. A 10 ft tall human, yes, but a human nonetheless (look at Fulgrim on the cover of the Primarch's, for example). They are going to have an immense physique - with maybe the exception of the rotten body of Mortarion - but not necessarily one which is probably human - more akin to a supermodel crossed with an ultrafit special forces soldier, rather than a bodybuilder. Vulkan will have had the packed muscle of a blacksmith, of course, Angron that of a Gladiator (although because hollywood, is more likely to be ripped, than the fat gladiators of history).

These are not sourced, of course - just my own reasoned guesstimations of something that will not be written about because at the end of the day, most 30-40k novels are aimed at luddite levels of intelligence to appeal to broadest audience with bolter porn.


----------



## Beaviz81

Have you seen any picture or model of any Imperial Space Marine you can say is butt-ugly Vaz? The closest I come is that Grey Knight in the ehm fanomical Lord Inquisitor (they went a bit overboard with the black cerapace) and the aforementioned Haegr. The rest seems to be damn handsome men, and I'm not sure if I'm willing to retcon the work of William King, but that's your opinion and I will pretend I respect it.


----------



## Vaz

Dude, it's a free world, if you want to look at pictures of "handsome men", feel free.

See, I can be a cunt too. Now, pipe the fuck down.

In regards to artwork, they have to be appealing, unless they're intentionally not meant to - such as Orks, or Daemon infused Giger-inspired artwork of Chaos. They're a caricature, and a sales 

Unless by the rest of the art, you mean that each space marine is around 14 ft tall (twice the height of the Eldar, which is typically larger than a human).










If you want to call into the case of "artwork" you will recognise that the majority of artwork usually concerns of an outsourced artist making a cool picture to sell a book.

Or what about this?


















Or this one? Those shoulder pads are fucking amazing. So good that you can only see dead ahead. Fucking good one mate.

Sit down.

I'm going from the reactions of people in the books. Meanwhile, you're going off a hired artists interpretation. 

I mean I don't know about you, but this;









Is hardly "beautiful" sanguinius.





































Case in point? 

Like I said, sit down.


----------



## Beaviz81

Lets see







I find that one anything but ugly. He has most of the heroic stuff a hero should have.

Heroic build much









And let see Primarch







quite handsome, almost angelic.

Another one.







maybe not that handsome but a certian wild appeal.

But I see your points. Not every Space Marine is a handsome thingy even if on the Imperial side.

Same with the Primarches. I just scrolled through some. Ew came to mind.


----------



## Vaz

So, Sanguinius is pretty. We know that. The art says that (although the feminine nose and sticky-out ears are kind of un"sexy"). As for Russ being "handsome", gonna call bullshit on that.

The only one with anything like is the Ultramarine. Ventris. And considering the rest of the proportions of the body is probably the equivalent of some astartes thalidomide baby.

Try again.


----------



## locustgate

Vaz said:


> So, Sanguinius is pretty. We know that. The art says that (although the feminine nose and sticky-out ears are kind of un"sexy"). As for Russ being "handsome", gonna call bullshit on that.
> 
> The only one with anything like is the Ultramarine. Ventris. And considering the rest of the proportions of the body is probably the equivalent of some astartes thalidomide baby.
> 
> Try again.


Is this going to turn into another one of you guys' dick measuring contest. We already had one in this thread.


----------



## gen.ahab

Went from wanting a primarch to return (or not) to whether or not space marines are pretty marines? Fucking love this site.

Anyway, as far as the original topic goes, I'm of two minds about it. On one hand it would be cool to see the shakeup that would occur and the possible issues concerning the high lord's. On the other, I'd be worried that it could be handled poorly; don't just want Papa Smurf to stomp in and everything be sunshine and rainbows.


----------



## Garviel loken.

ya lets get back on topic. Beaver and vaz go settle your dispute elsewhere


----------



## Terricus

Long story short, I would love to see a primarch come back and actually make a difference. I dont really want it to be roboute but heck it'd be cool. I would love to see a traitor primarch redeemed though honestly. I think it would be neat to see one of them cast off the shackles of chaos and fight back. Or just allow the alpha legion and their twin primarchs to show their true colors....it's been long enough


----------



## locustgate

Terricus said:


> I think it would be neat to see one of them cast off the shackles of chaos and fight back.


No....there's NO possibility of it. The surviving traitor primarchs are DEMONS fully, in order for that to occur the chaos gods would have to remove their blessings and actively restore them to their former glory. Generally when a Demon Prince loses their blessing they are absorbed by chaos god, unless they have enough worshipers to be able to sustain themselves.


----------



## MEQinc

TheV0791 said:


> So the whole Guilliman taking charge vs. the paranoid leaders of the imperium. Since this is all opinionated fluff anyways (seeded from facts that we've read about in the novels). I'd personally believe that they'd use Guilliman to the best of their ability to defend the imperium 'their asses', then if the coast is clear they all backstab him and try to return to their pompous lives, though possibly having created a Civil War following the death of one of the Emperor's Primarchs.


I don't think Guilliman coming back would be useable by the High Lords, because I don't think Guilliman's going to have any interest in saving the Imperium's bacon. A resurrected Guilliman is going to have one look at the state of the Imperium and then say "Screw You. Got Mine." Ultramar is in good shape, especially relative to the rest of the Imperium, and it's always been his top priority. Imperium Secondous, mark two.



locustgate said:


> No....there's NO possibility of it. The surviving traitor primarchs are DEMONS fully, in order for that to occur the chaos gods would have to remove their blessings and actively restore them to their former glory.


There's also the fact that none of the 'traitors' want to come back, or have any reason to. They weren't trapped or tricked, they fell by design and ascended on purpose. You can't be redeemed if you haven't done anything wrong.


----------



## Garviel loken.

MEQinc said:


> I don't think Guilliman coming back would be useable by the High Lords, because I don't think Guilliman's going to have any interest in saving the Imperium's bacon. A resurrected Guilliman is going to have one look at the state of the Imperium and then say "Screw You. Got Mine." Ultramar is in good shape, especially relative to the rest of the Imperium, and it's always been his top priority. Imperium Secondous, mark two.
> 
> 
> 
> There's also the fact that none of the 'traitors' want to come back, or have any reason to. They weren't trapped or tricked, they fell by design and ascended on purpose. You can't be redeemed if you haven't done anything wrong.


wow i never thought if it that way, guilliman saying fuck off to the imperium and focusing on ultramar. VERY good points you brought up.


----------



## Bone2pick

Beaviz81 said:


> You are spot on with the two types. You have hardcore fans which in my opinion want the Ultras to be perfect, even though them themselves decries otherwise. And the newbies.


So, in your opinion, only two types of people respect the Ultramarines Legion/Chapter?


----------



## gen.ahab

Considering the necessity of the astronomicon and the extragalactic threats that he's going to have to deal with, I don't see Guilliman being that short sighted. He's going to know that he can't hold on his own and he's going to know he cannot, under any circumstances, allow Terra to fall. That means he's going have to come to an agreement with Terra or conquer it. If it's the latter than he's going to need to conquer the area between Cadian and Terra because he can't let Abaddon the traitor legions bust through the gate. Really, there's no way he just says "fuck this, I'm out." Just isn't going to happen.


----------



## Reaper45

gen.ahab said:


> Considering the necessity of the astronomicon and the extragalactic threats that he's going to have to deal with, I don't see Guilliman being that short sighted. He's going to know that he can't hold on his own and he's going to know he cannot, under any circumstances, allow Terra to fall. That means he's going have to come to an agreement with Terra or conquer it. If it's the latter than he's going to need to conquer the area between Cadian and Terra because he can't let Abaddon the traitor legions bust through the gate. Really, there's no way he just says "fuck this, I'm out." Just isn't going to happen.


Terra isn't as important anymore if the xenotech from unremembered empire is still operational.


----------



## gen.ahab

Reaper45 said:


> Terra isn't as important anymore if the xenotech from unremembered empire is still operational.


Whoosy-xeno-whatnow?

Seriously, I've been out of the Hobby (and fluff) since before 6th and I've only just started getting back into things. No idea what this xeno-thingamajig is.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

gen.ahab said:


> Whoosy-xeno-whatnow?
> 
> Seriously, I've been out of the Hobby (and fluff) since before 6th and I've only just started getting back into things. No idea what this xeno-thingamajig is.


In _The Unremembered Empire_ Guilliman was able to draw Imperial reinforcements to Ultramar despite the Ruinstorm because of a warp-beacon of xenos origin. It's how Sanguinius and the Blood Angels made it to Ultramar, as well as the Polus and the remnants of the Imperial Fists' Retribution Fleet, and many others. 



Reaper45 said:


> Terra isn't as important anymore if the xenotech from unremembered empire is still operational.


If it was still operational, you think it would have been mentioned somewhere. :laugh:


----------



## Reaper45

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> In _The Unremembered Empire_ Guilliman was able to draw Imperial reinforcements to Ultramar despite the Ruinstorm because of a warp-beacon of xenos origin. It's how Sanguinius and the Blood Angels made it to Ultramar, as well as the Polus and the remnants of the Imperial Fists' Retribution Fleet, and many others.
> 
> 
> 
> If it was still operational, you think it would have been mentioned somewhere. :laugh:


As far as I know only Guilliman, The lion, Sanguinius and a few astartes commanders and humans were aware of it's existance.

Perhaps Guilliman kept the knowledge of it hidden as his ace in the hole? After all the mechanius isn't the most trust worthy organization.


----------



## TheV0791

I'd be down to see Guilliman conquer Terra! That'd be one awesome story! Despite not making much sense as the argument is currently between joining forces to become stronger, or not joining forces so he can consolidate his resources. Throwing resources away on both sides would be counter productive 

Also, despite it being impossible to un-demonize yourself as mentioned previously. I would personally like to see the thousand sons redeemed, there story is a bit sad. I'm sure there is a way, seeing as it is a story of fantasy novels and anything is possible


----------



## hailene

Reaper45 said:


> Perhaps Guilliman kept the knowledge of it hidden as his ace in the hole?


Isn't it heavily implied that the planet that held the beacon is the same planet the Scythes of the Emperor were given? And we know that the Tyranids nomed it up, right?


----------



## Garviel loken.

hailene said:


> Reaper45 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps Guilliman kept the knowledge of it hidden as his ace in the hole?
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't it heavily implied that the planet that held the beacon is the same planet the Scythes of the Emperor were given? And we know that the Tyranids nomed it up, right?
Click to expand...

Was that the whole thing about a farmer being at the end game or something? I thought it was referring to oll perrson...


----------



## Brother Lucian

Garviel loken. said:


> Was that the whole thing about a farmer being at the end game or something? I thought it was referring to oll perrson...


Sotha was the place with the empathic beacons, inhabited by the Scythes of the Emperor. Having a farmers tool as their symbol. I took it as the Sothan um garrison becomming the scythes after the second founding.


----------



## Reaper45

hailene said:


> Isn't it heavily implied that the planet that held the beacon is the same planet the Scythes of the Emperor were given? And we know that the Tyranids nomed it up, right?


It's a device hidden below a mountain with unknown potential. All we know is that it can act as a beacon, a com device and a teleporter, who knows what else it can do.


----------



## Marauderlegion

Terricus said:


> Guilliman is a grea primarch and would definately be boon to the imperium. But, in order for any significant help they would need like 3 primarchs atleast to help stim the tide. Russ is exactly what they need right now, the walls are closing in on the imperium and the enemy is at the gates. Their enemy is legion and they need not one but multiple heroes on this scale to atleast cause a true stalemate.


I would very much agree with this.

I mean to me, it makes sense thematically that at the end-times the living primarchs should return. All of them.


----------



## MEQinc

Marauderlegion said:


> I mean to me, it makes sense thematically that at the end-times the living primarchs should return. All of them.


Well it would, if the the theme wasn't that humanity is doomed. 40k isn't the story of how mankind bounces back from the brink, it's the story of how mankind dies by inches. It's not the story of a messiah figure returning to usher in a new golden age, that was 30k. The last hope of humanity has already failed.


----------



## hailene

Reaper45 said:


> It's a device hidden below a mountain with unknown potential. All we know is that it can act as a beacon, a com device and a teleporter, who knows what else it can do.


Regardless of its capabilities, in all likelihood it's _probably_ (no guarantee either way at the moment) lost to the Imperium since the world that housed it was overrun by the Tyranids back in 992.M41.


----------



## Marauderlegion

MEQinc said:


> Well it would, if the the theme wasn't that humanity is doomed. 40k isn't the story of how mankind bounces back from the brink, it's the story of how mankind dies by inches. It's not the story of a messiah figure returning to usher in a new golden age, that was 30k. The last hope of humanity has already failed.



You may well be right.

But I meant more in terms of the game being *WAR*Hammer-40K; it's all about massive wars, right? Some kind of slight setting change from just before the apocalyptic war they've always threatened, to the apocalyptic war would be cool.


----------



## Phoebus

This is a complex topic. I'm of mixed feelings as to how Guilliman would be received. There are a few things worth remembering:

1. According to the Ultramarines, Roboute Guilliman was one of the first High Lords of Terra, and held the office of Lord Commander of the Imperium - the one individual who ever controlled the totality of the Imperium's military forces (other than the Emperor, of course). If this is indeed true, Roboute Guilliman was never divested of his office.

2. The Ultramarines and their Successors comprise two thirds of the Adeptus Astartes. Recent fluff has pointed to the comraderie that exists these Chapters along blood-lines. If these Successors would be so quick to rally to the side of Marneus Calgar, would they not also rally to Guilliman?

3. Roboute Guilliman is not just a general. In the theocratic dystopia that the Imperium has become, he is venerated as a demigod saint. I'm willing to wager that Roboute Guilliman is infinitely more famous to the quadrillions of humans across the galaxy than the High Lords of Terra - whose names are probably not even known.

All of this leads me to think that, however paranoid and bellicose, the High Lords would not turn against Guilliman by default. To court civil war with even half of the Adeptus Astartes is to invite destruction for the entire Imperium. They can't afford to waste battle fleets and army groups to make war on hundreds of Chapters across the galaxy. They can't afford the mass dissension that turning their back on the Imperium's equivalent of Saint George or an Archangel would invite.

On the other hand, one might also do well to consider the perceived _benefits_ that Guilliman's return might bring to the High Lords of Terra.

Presently, the Adeptus Astartes are an organization that exists outside of most of the Imperium's laws. They are largely autonomous. News of their existence is generally limited to reports submitted by Inquisitors and officers of the Astra Militarum who have observed them on the field. Their obeisance is limited to answering the call for specific campaigns (and even then, there is a great degree of leeway involved) and providing a geneseed tithe. They answer to no one where their day-to-day campaigning is concerned.

Much of this is because the Adeptus Astartes never recognized an authority beyond their own primarchs and the Emperor. Indeed, as Lord Commander of the Imperium, Guilliman _may_ have been the only individual to be able to command all Chapters after the Scouring. Imagine if, through Guilliman, the High Lords were able to finally rein in the Adeptus Astartes.

And of course, a lot of this comes down on _when_ Guilliman returns. I mean, if the primarch comes back during, say, the high point of Solar Macharius's conquests, I agree that the High Lords may very well think that they're better off without a demigod super-genius to boss them around.

But what if Guilliman returns a few months into, say, M42, as Abaddon the Despoiler is burning the Imperium well and good? Are we correct in being so quick to dismiss the possibility of Guilliman's return being hailed as a miracle? I think _any_ loyal primarch at would be invited to take a seat of prominence.


----------



## Marauderlegion

Phoebus said:


> This is a complex topic. I'm of mixed feelings as to how Guilliman would be received. There are a few things worth remembering:
> 
> 1. According to the Ultramarines, Roboute Guilliman was one of the first High Lords of Terra, and held the office of Lord Commander of the Imperium - the one individual who ever controlled the totality of the Imperium's military forces (other than the Emperor, of course). If this is indeed true, Roboute Guilliman was never divested of his office.
> 
> 2. The Ultramarines and their Successors comprise two thirds of the Adeptus Astartes. Recent fluff has pointed to the comraderie that exists these Chapters along blood-lines. If these Successors would be so quick to rally to the side of Marneus Calgar, would they not also rally to Guilliman?



1. That's pretty amazing. Where can I get more info on that? You may have something there.

2. I strongly suspect that the Codex Astartes was never meant to be taken as it has been and the way the Ultramarine successors cooperate and keep close ties seems to support the idea, at least in my mind, that the second founding was intended as something of a shellgame to assuage the fears of certain individuals. It is also to be noted that the collective Unforgiven and perhaps others form a sort of shadow legion as well, though without apparent recourse to any of the high-level legion assets they once had. I basically agree with your assessment that most of the UM successors would rally behind RG if he came back.


----------



## Phoebus

Angel of Blood said:


> Perfect is not the word I would use to describe it. Also for anyone not familiar, it is never stated that it can heal 'any wound of any individual', only that it is apparently able to have slightly healed an Astsrtes captain who is in stasis, one who I might add is horrifically wounded, but not dead on entry to the stasis field. Guilliman was dead when interred, it states it enough, but I know people here will continue to argue it, so never mind that for now.
> 
> As it stands, the healing effects of the Heart of Iron, is almost entirely unknown, there is nothing to say that it would have continued to heal the captain, or what type of wounds it can, and certainly nothing about what it could do with a Primarch physiology, which is even more distant from an Astartes to ours.


I think you're ignoring the hilarious angle: that the venom on Fulgrim's sword offsets the Iron Heart, dooming Guilliman to an eternal state of healing, since that artifact only works in stasis... :biggrin:



Angel of Blood said:


> Dark Angels - Thramas Crusade would have taken quite a toll, like the Wolves, casualties securing the Sol system, then huge chunk of the Legion turn on them.


Not that I disagree with your larger point, but, point of fact, the Lion himself considers his legion to be whole as of "Savage Weapons".

Where the treasonous Dark Angels are concerned, "By the Lion's Hand" has Corswain assume that Caliban holds about as many Space Marines as I calculated (using the figures Zahariel provides in _Fallen Angels_) Luther could produce in the amount of time that has passed so far: roughly 20,000 (my own guesstimate was a little less than 22,000). Assuming Belath and his Chapter (whom Corswain sends back to Caliban to collect what he assumes to be 20,000 _loyal_ Dark Angels) are wiped out, I imagine it's less Luther's numerical power that results in horrific losses for the loyalists than the element of surprise. Although, even then, the ending of _The Lion_ at least hints that El'Jonson knows something's afoot in Caliban.


----------



## Phoebus

Marauderlegion said:


> 1. That's pretty amazing. Where can I get more info on that? You may have something there.


It's a very short blurb in the old 2nd Edition Codex: Ultramarines:



> What happened next is a tribute to the skills and foresight of a very few powerful men, not least to the Ultramarines' Primarch Roboute Guilliman. A council was formed of the twelve most powerful individuals in the Imperium. They called themselves the High Lords of Terra, and their self-proclaimed role was to rule the Imperium on behalf of the Emperor.
> 
> History does not record the names of those first High Lords. Indeed, there are few records of the early centuries of the Imperium. History and legend remain strangely intertwined, describing in almost mythic terms the dark and desperate times that followed the defeat of Horus. However, the tradition of the Ultramarines relates that their Primarch, Roboute Guilliman, was one of these High Lords. He became Lord Commander of the Imperium, the first to carry that title and the only man ever to command the entirety of the Imperium's armed forces.


I wish I had more for you!


----------



## Reaper45

Marauderlegion said:


> 1. That's pretty amazing. Where can I get more info on that? You may have something there.
> 
> 2. I strongly suspect that the Codex Astartes was never meant to be taken as it has been and the way the Ultramarine successors cooperate and keep close ties seems to support the idea, at least in my mind, that the second founding was intended as something of a shellgame to assuage the fears of certain individuals. It is also to be noted that the collective Unforgiven and perhaps others form a sort of shadow legion as well, though without apparent recourse to any of the high-level legion assets they once had. I basically agree with your assessment that most of the UM successors would rally behind RG if he came back.


It wasn't, Guilliman himself stated.


> _ ‘But your teachings…’ *‘Are yet flawed,’ said Guilliman. ‘No one, not even one such as I, can anticipate every possible outcome of battle. My words are not some holy writ that must be obeyed.* There must always be room for personal initiative on the battlefield. You and I both know how one spark of heroism can turn the tide of battle. That knowledge and personal experience can only be earned in blood, and the leader in the field must always be the ultimate arbiter of what course of action should be followed.’_


I don't remember where it's from having trouble finding the source, but the point is the codex was supposed to be guidelines that basically say here's a few ways you can do things, interpret them to suit your needs.


----------



## darkreever

Its from the short story _Rules of Engagement_ found in the Age of Darkness anthology. Ventanus uses the fledgling codex astartes to great effect against most of the enemies he faces but ultimately could not win and Guilliman claims that his codex was only meant as a guideline.


----------



## Reaper45

darkreever said:


> Its from the short story _Rules of Engagement_ found in the Age of Darkness anthology. Ventanus uses the fledgling codex astartes to great effect against most of the enemies he faces but ultimately could not win and Guilliman claims that his codex was only meant as a guideline.


Thanks, I looked everywhere for that Also in hindsight Guilliman should have put that in the forward to ensure it never happened again.

Guess it just goes to show how far the ultramarines fell.


----------



## Garviel loken.

Reaper45 said:


> darkreever said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its from the short story _Rules of Engagement_ found in the Age of Darkness anthology. Ventanus uses the fledgling codex astartes to great effect against most of the enemies he faces but ultimately could not win and Guilliman claims that his codex was only meant as a guideline.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, I looked everywhere for that Also in hindsight Guilliman should have put that in the forward to ensure it never happened again.
> 
> Guess it just goes to show how far the ultramarines fell.
Click to expand...

This is why I don't understand why people think that 40k ultras are perfect


----------



## mayegelt

locustgate said:


> And while the imperium is purging their ranks nids are raiding their fridge, chaos is defiling their bedroom with the most nasty dirty depraved sex in the history of the universe, dark eldar turn their basement into a S&M club, tau declared their pool theirs, the eldar have set up a drum circle in the living room, necrons have parked their monoliths on the front lawn, and orks are trashing the dining room with the largest kegger in history. So by the time they finish putting their house in order they only control the bathroom and entrance hall.


Maybe this would give us back squats 



locustgate said:


> If you have a few million and lose a few million you have best case a few thousand.
> 
> You can be the Jesus Christ of tactics but unless you can pull more soldiers and supplies out of your ass your screwed. Tactics alone doesn't win a war neither does numbers alone (unless you have ridiculous more than your opponent).


In addition he would probably be telling them to bring out the Volkite Cannons and other long gone things that no longer work and wondering why everyone was laughing at him  + The Space Wolves tended not to pay any attention to him anyway, and the Lion and a few others were always a bit on the side of "F You Girly-Man, your not my dad when he started ordering them around."



Vaz said:


>


Still think Sangs Teardrops looks way to much like the Eye of Horus but looking down on that piccy

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

Anyway look back 100s of White Dwarfs ago and there was that whole thing that speculated that Girly-Man was healing started only after the Tyranids came to Macragge. So maybe he is infected and the stasis is slightly broken.

TBH I think that there is a chance that they will bring back some Primarchs as the end times is here and several were meant to appear around that time. HOWEVER this means the clock has to tick from the current 5mins to midnight they have set it at since the Eye of Terror campaign in 2003 ended, Nothing since then has really moved forwards apart from releasing flyers, making centurions and stuff like that and making a few new special characters and giving them backstory.
So maybe it will tick to 3 minutes left. The 4 Daemon Primarchs come back (as most are active currently, apart from Magnus who is lost in thought), maybe as said before a few others like Curze might come as well.
While Lion, Russ, Corax, Vulkan, Khan.
This would give a 5 vs 5 of ones who are most probably alive and well (if not rather insane... though insanity isn't something that would stop you mushing heads and leading legions of guys who are all genetically programmed to think your awesome).
I would add that this would likely happen in several years time. FW previously announced that they would make the Daemonic Versions of the Primarchs as they catch up in the 30K HH series to when they change. So it would make sense that once all the "Final Versions" are made that they could 40K them as well as they would not have changed since in most cases appearance wise anyway (mentally is another matter ).

Also remember even the dead don't always stay dead anyway. Especially with the forces of Chaos liking to remake things or ascend dead people to Daemonhood.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Garviel loken. said:


> This is why I don't understand why people think that 40k ultras are perfect


Do you mean in-universe or fans?

If the latter, I don't think I've come across a single person that believes the Ultramarines to be perfect. Have you? It seems to be more of a persistent myth!


----------



## Garviel loken.

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Garviel loken. said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is why I don't understand why people think that 40k ultras are perfect
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean in-universe or fans?
> 
> If the latter, I don't think I've come across a single person that believes the Ultramarines to be perfect. Have you? It seems to be more of a persistent myth!
Click to expand...

Sarcasm noted. But seriously, while the blood angels or other sm chapters have very noticible flaws, the ultramarines have one huge flaw that is noticed if one is to dig a little deeper


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Garviel loken. said:


> Sarcasm noted. But seriously, while the blood angels or other sm chapters have very noticible flaws, the ultramarines have one huge flaw that is noticed if one is to dig a little deeper


I genuinely wasn't being sarcastic! :laugh:


----------



## Garviel loken.

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I genuinely wasn't being sarcastic! :laugh:


i was there, the day child of the emperor turned his back on his brothers


----------



## Shunter

I think Guilliman was one of the only people to actually have a clue when the Emperor died. Perhaps his revival would be a way to end the 40k universe with a victory for the Imperium?


----------



## Reaper45

Garviel loken. said:


> Sarcasm noted. But seriously, while the blood angels or other sm chapters have very noticible flaws, the ultramarines have one huge flaw that is noticed if one is to dig a little deeper


That is a good point, aside from 12 year olds I know no one who things the ultramarines are awesome.

There's plenty of people who paint space marines in their colors, but that could be more or less due to the fact that box sets GW sold with brushes and paints had their colors in it.

Also worth noting, of all the chapters the Space wolves are the one chapter to have gotten better instead of falling further from their legion stats.


----------



## Beaviz81

Shunter said:


> I think Guilliman was one of the only people to actually have a clue when the Emperor died. Perhaps his revival would be a way to end the 40k universe with a victory for the Imperium?


Shouldn't Rogal Dorn (who actually was being present) have a better clue?


----------



## darkreever

Beaviz81 said:


> Shouldn't Rogal Dorn (who actually was being present) have a better clue?


Not really, no. Dorn was one of several primarchs who needed to assuage their ego and pride after the Heresy (alongside Russ and even the Khan.)

Guilliman on the other hand was always noted for being more rational in the face of great tragedy. And hell, if the Unremembered Empire was anything to go by then he was definitely able to fathom the Emperor being defeated.


----------



## Beaviz81

darkreever said:


> Not really, no. Dorn was one of several primarchs who needed to assuage their ego and pride after the Heresy (alongside Russ and even the Khan.)
> 
> Guilliman on the other hand was always noted for being more rational in the face of great tragedy. And hell, if the Unremembered Empire was anything to go by then he was definitely able to fathom the Emperor being defeated.


I actually misread the quote, thought he meant how Empy died. 

Look I always have found Guilliman to be overrated, but you have a point. Guilliman has always been the savior of the IOM after the HH. And you are using Abnett's writing as an example? Abnett writes POV, you are aware of that?


----------



## darkreever

Beaviz81 said:


> And you are using Abnett's writing as an example? Abnett writes POV, you are aware of that?


Depends on the story he writes yes. And Abnett or not, the Unremembered Empire goes at length to show that Guilliman was prepared to accept that the Emperor might fall and the Imperium would still need to be held together, which is exactly what happened post Heresy and Scouring.

Like or dislike of Abnett doesn't play into it, thats how Guilliman was always portrayed.


----------



## Garviel loken.

Beaviz81 said:


> darkreever said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not really, no. Dorn was one of several primarchs who needed to assuage their ego and pride after the Heresy (alongside Russ and even the Khan.)
> 
> Guilliman on the other hand was always noted for being more rational in the face of great tragedy. And hell, if the Unremembered Empire was anything to go by then he was definitely able to fathom the Emperor being defeated.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually misread the quote, thought he meant how Empy died.
> 
> Look I always have found Guilliman to be overrated, but you have a point. Guilliman has always been the savior of the IOM after the HH. And you are using Abnett's writing as an example? Abnett writes POV, you are aware of that?
Click to expand...

We get it you hate the ultramarines. Guilliman has never once been written to be overrated in the heresy series thus far


----------



## Beaviz81

Garviel loken. said:


> We get it you hate the ultramarines. Guilliman has never once been written to be overrated in the heresy series thus far


I have never held hatred, just no love lost for the Ultras. Seriously. I loathe the fanbois of the Ultras, Abnett did a fine POV-job with them. I just don't like people stuffing down their interpretation into my throat and telling me, that's fluff. Then I really tend to go in the opposite direction. Which is my major gripe with many Ultramarine-fans.

I can't stand people that tell me how to think and feel, its a natural thing to show them the middle-finger. Especially when they have showed me no respect in the first place. I'm a mirrorer.


----------



## Garviel loken.

Beaviz81 said:


> Garviel loken. said:
> 
> 
> 
> We get it you hate the ultramarines. Guilliman has never once been written to be overrated in the heresy series thus far
> 
> 
> 
> I have never held hatred, just no love lost for the Ultras. Seriously. I loathe the fanbois of the Ultras, Abnett did a fine POV-job with them. I just don't like people stuffing down their interpretation into my throat and telling me, that's fluff. Then I really tend to go in the opposite direction. Which is my major gripe with many Ultramarine-fans.
> 
> I can't stand people that tell me how to think and feel, its a natural thing to show them the middle-finger. Especially when they have showed me no respect in the first place. I'm a mirrorer.
Click to expand...

I honestly had no intent of disrespect, so I apologize for that. Ultramarines are my legion, so I will defend them till the end. I didn't mean to shove my beliefs down your throat so I also apologize for that


----------



## Vaz

You are taking your aggreivance with the 'fanbois' (the fuck are you, 12?) With those having a rational discussion using facts as presented to us in a fantasy world, not to mention the facts as is. Very blinkered. 

And honestly mate, being a 'mirrorer' just turns you into a right little knob. You have to earn or take your respect. You have done neither. Go take out your prepubescent frustations on a titty rag and let adults talk. Essentially, you are borderline trolling.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

He can barely speak the language. Don't take him seriously.


----------



## Tawa

Anyway, _back to the topic at hand_.

Rowboat Girlypants in 40k.


----------



## Warhawk

So I just got here, and this is crazy,

But the primarchs seemed pretty useless in the absence of their Emperor.

So just make new ones... maybe?

At this point I would imagine there are far more qualified people in the woodwork, just waiting for a chance to actually lead and/or make a difference. Unless Guilliman is a flat out astronomical genius, then honestly he seems irrelevant. He'd have 10,000 years of catching up to do, and his Ultramarines would be but one chapter, give or take those offshoots that are intensely loyal. The bureaucracy he helped put into place would no doubt buck his every initiative, and if pressed, could cause another civil war.


----------



## Garviel loken.

Warhawk said:


> So I just got here, and this is crazy,
> 
> But the primarchs seemed pretty useless in the absence of their Emperor.
> 
> So just make new ones... maybe?
> 
> At this point I would imagine there are far more qualified people in the woodwork, just waiting for a chance to actually lead and/or make a difference. Unless Guilliman is a flat out astronomical genius, then honestly he seems irrelevant. He'd have 10,000 years of catching up to do, and his Ultramarines would be but one chapter, give or take those offshoots that are intensely loyal. The bureaucracy he helped put into place would no doubt buck his every initiative, and if pressed, could cause another civil war.


welcome to the fray. Guilliman is in all senses of the word, an astronomical genius. His mind is that of 100 supercomputers. I think he would catch up very quickly, and honestly, theres not alot to catch up on. He would have to re write some combat doctrines on some new foes, and slap the high lords around a bit, but tech wise theres nothing new.


----------



## locustgate

Warhawk said:


> So I just got here, and this is crazy,
> 
> But the primarchs seemed pretty useless in the absence of their Emperor.
> 
> So just make new ones... maybe?
> 
> At this point I would imagine there are far more qualified people in the woodwork, just waiting for a chance to actually lead and/or make a difference. Unless Guilliman is a flat out astronomical genius, then honestly he seems irrelevant. He'd have 10,000 years of catching up to do, and his Ultramarines would be but one chapter, give or take those offshoots that are intensely loyal. The bureaucracy he helped put into place would no doubt buck his every initiative, and if pressed, could cause another civil war.


Welcome.

FOR THE LOVE OF THE OMNISSIAH RUN THEY WILL TURN Y

Everything. is. fine. have. a. good. day. Praise. be. the. Omnissiah.

Like Loken said Guiliman is a genius, I would give him a day before he is caught up. Though the biggest hindrance is the bureaucracy, which by the time his order for every document pertaining to the current situation would be received, he would be in the High Lords' conference room beating the shit out of them.


----------



## Reaper45

locustgate said:


> Welcome.
> 
> FOR THE LOVE OF THE OMNISSIAH RUN THEY WILL TURN Y
> 
> Everything. is. fine. have. a. good. day. Praise. be. the. Omnissiah.
> 
> Like Loken said Guiliman is a genius, I would give him a day before he is caught up. Though the biggest hindrance is the bureaucracy, which by the time his order for every document pertaining to the current situation would be received, he would be in the High Lords' conference room beating the shit out of them.


Would that be before or after he finishes beating calagar senseless for doing the exact thing he didn't want.


----------



## locustgate

Reaper45 said:


> Would that be before or after he finishes beating calagar senseless for doing the exact thing he didn't want.


After. This is the imperial bureaucracy, by the time you get your birth certificate your grandson has died of old age.


----------



## Doom wolf

Reaper45 said:


> Would that be before or after he finishes beating calagar senseless for doing the exact thing he didn't want.


:laugh::laugh::laugh:

I would say I would do both at the same times, because primarchs are just that awesome ! :victory:


----------



## locustgate

Doom wolf said:


> :laugh::laugh::laugh:
> 
> I would say I would do both at the same times, because primarchs are just that awesome ! :victory:


They still have to follow the law about not being in 2 places at once.


----------



## Tawa

locustgate said:


> After. This is the imperial bureaucracy, by the time you get your birth certificate your grandson has died of old age.


Just like Britain then. :good:



Doom wolf said:


> I would say I would do both at the same times, because primarchs are just that awesome ! :victory:


Calgar would be dangling from one hand, blubbing like a baby, and receiving a punch every now and again whilst being to told to "suck it up buttercup!". The other hand, Girlyman would be using to bitch-slap any of the High Lords within reach or throw them at others who are not.


----------



## Haskanael

Tawa said:


> Calgar would be dangling from one hand, blubbing like a baby, and receiving a punch every now and again whilst being to told to "suck it up buttercup!". The other hand, Girlyman would be using to bitch-slap any of the High Lords within reach or throw them at others who are not.


thank you, for making my day.

as a visual thinker I cannot begin to explain how hilarious it looks to me.


----------



## Tawa

Haskanael said:


> thank you, for making my day.
> 
> as a visual thinker I cannot begin to explain how hilarious it looks to me.


Welcome. :good:

It appears "visual thinker" is the best way to describe myself also


----------



## Haskanael

Tawa said:


> Welcome. :good:
> 
> It appears "visual thinker" is the best way to describe myself also


only one thing to add, 
Guilleman is holding Calgar (who is wearing terminator armour) by his leg.


----------



## Marauderlegion

Tawa said:


> Calgar would be dangling from one hand, blubbing like a baby, and receiving a punch every now and again whilst being to told to "suck it up buttercup!". The other hand, Girlyman would be using to bitch-slap any of the High Lords within reach or throw them at others who are not.


Uh uh

This man is THE master of tactics and logistics, at least according to his fanbase. I think a primarch should be able to do better; two birds with one stone, if you will.

No no.

Beat the High Lords of Terra *with* Mareus Calgar.

There; that's part of his profile now:

Robute Gulliman

ect, ect

Wargear; the beaten, battered, but still-conscious form of Mareus Calgar.

How would you stat a Chapter Master in termie armour with TL power fists, being used as an improvised club?


"I beat my kids, with my other kid"
-Robute Gulliman, Terra M42


----------



## Reaper45

Marauderlegion said:


> Uh uh
> 
> This man is THE master of tactics and logistics, at least according to his fanbase. I think a primarch should be able to do better; two birds with one stone, if you will.
> 
> No no.
> 
> Beat the High Lords of Terra *with* Mareus Calgar.
> 
> There; that's part of his profile now:
> 
> Robute Gulliman
> 
> ect, ect
> 
> Wargear; the beaten, battered, but still-conscious form of Mareus Calgar.
> 
> How would you stat a Chapter Master in termie armour with TL power fists, being used as an improvised club?
> 
> 
> "I beat my kids, with my other kid"
> -Robute Gulliman, Terra M42


His next course of action would then be to find Captain Titus and promote him to Calgars old job, while telling all his sons that this is how an ultramarine is supposed to act.


----------



## darkreever

Honestly I can never get why people think Guilliman would fly into a rage if he saw that the Ultramarines strictly adhere to the codex. After all, it wasn't widely known that he intended for the codex to be a guideline (he had to tell Ventanus that in person when the former couldn't get why strictly following the codex led to failure.)

Thousands of years of misinterpretation, on top of all the other changes since his time, doesn't seem that far fetched really.


----------



## Tawa

Just makes me chuckle is all.

"_You did what with my Legion...?!_" :shok:


----------



## Reaper45

darkreever said:


> Honestly I can never get why people think Guilliman would fly into a rage if he saw that the Ultramarines strictly adhere to the codex. After all, it wasn't widely known that he intended for the codex to be a guideline (he had to tell Ventanus that in person when the former couldn't get why strictly following the codex led to failure.)
> 
> Thousands of years of misinterpretation, on top of all the other changes since his time, doesn't seem that far fetched really.


The ultramarines had 10 000 years to fall. Right now even free thinking is prohibited in that chapter.

While Guilliman was a master of logistics he also had the ability to improvise. 

Aside from Ventris, Telion, Titus, and Sicarious maybe, none of the ultramarines are capable of independent thinking.


----------



## Vaz

Hyperbolic Graham McNeil is fucking ridiculous, as are his plots, and Rihanna 'only girl/marine i the world/galaxy' style of writing. 

Feel free to ignore his writing as incredibly poor fanfic/slash fiction that he types by slapping his dick on the keyboard in semi random fashion. The codices themselves IIRC completely ignores the very presence of ventris, and make no mention of their hidebound limited point of view that mcneil writes about.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Aggeman manages to suprise Sicarius with an unconventional approach in the shortie Two Kinds of a Fool.


----------



## locustgate

Reaper45 said:


> Aside from Ventris, Telion, Titus, and Sicarious maybe, none of the ultramarines are capable of independent thinking.


I wouldn't say they are incapable of independent thinking, in the way you are using, it's more they are seriously punished if they think of there is an outside of the box.


----------



## Reaper45

Vaz said:


> Hyperbolic Graham McNeil is fucking ridiculous, as are his plots, and Rihanna 'only girl/marine i the world/galaxy' style of writing.
> 
> Feel free to ignore his writing as incredibly poor fanfic/slash fiction that he types by slapping his dick on the keyboard in semi random fashion. The codices themselves IIRC completely ignores the very presence of ventris, and make no mention of their hidebound limited point of view that mcneil writes about.


He's mentioned in the tyranid codex. Third nid war timeline Pg 32 Defense of tarsis ultra sub heading.


----------



## Lux

locustgate said:


> He was put in stasis 'at the moment of death', Ultramarine books.


Old source, newer source states he was entered upon the verge of death. You have two conflicting sources, I choose to align with the new source as the most canon source. Guilliman was entered as he was dying, and thus can be healed by the Iron heart as he is still alive. Ultimately we have multiple instances of primarchs on the "verge of death" or in the "moment of death", and yet they survive or recover through other unforeseen means.

Believing even for a second in fan theories that Guilliman died is based purely upon a lack of facts, canon material, and personal disdain for the Ultramarines. The far more logical choice would be to accept that the Ultramarines primarch is alive, and to build upon that logical route instead.


The giant in baroque armor is most statistically likely to be Konrad Curze, which I believe serves as an excellent means for him to be reintroduced to the 40k verse.


----------



## Battman

Keen on advancement, well in the story at least think the game might even do a fantasy if the altered it then GW might dump it down like age of sigmar. 

If guilliman wakes that certainly would bring large change to the current set up of the 40k universe. Primarily im thinking a continuation of the second imperium around the 5000 worlds and macragge. Then any concerns for building of an army I really don't think there would be any concerns with recalling all of the ultramarines successors then even building with the current population of the 5000 worlds, that and a little organisation and boom legion reconquer the universe murder tyranid, punch abaddon in the face till he stops being resurected, stop all the bullshit the high lords and exclesiarchy are up to and win!


----------



## Lux

Battman said:


> Keen on advancement, well in the story at least think the game might even do a fantasy if the altered it then GW might dump it down like age of sigmar.
> 
> If guilliman wakes that certainly would bring large change to the current set up of the 40k universe. Primarily im thinking a continuation of the second imperium around the 5000 worlds and macragge. Then any concerns for building of an army I really don't think there would be any concerns with recalling all of the ultramarines successors then even building with the current population of the 5000 worlds, that and a little organisation and boom legion reconquer the universe murder tyranid, punch abaddon in the face till he stops being resurected, stop all the bullshit the high lords and exclesiarchy are up to and win!


Very analytical post, true believer!

Guilliman would likely quickly assess the situation and surmise all that has happened to the Empire in seconds, from there he would likely assess what resources as well as followers he has present. Guilliman would then recall as many of his immediate Ultramarine marines as possible, from there he would then contact Terra to assess if the Emperor is alive and or what other primarchs are still present. The highlords of Terror would either submit to Guilliman or more likely believe he is a demon in disguise, which would result in Guilliman starting a war to retake control of the empire.

Remember Guilliman was willing to enter another civil war in order to enforce the codex, he would most surely be willing to start another war to save the Empire from itself and restore the Emperor's vision.


----------



## Doom wolf

Lux said:


> Very analytical post, true believer!
> 
> Guilliman would likely quickly assess the situation and surmise all that has happened to the Empire in seconds, from there he would likely assess what resources as well as followers he has present. Guilliman would then recall as many of his immediate Ultramarine marines as possible, from there he would then contact Terra to assess if the Emperor is alive and or what other primarchs are still present. The highlords of Terror would either submit to Guilliman or more likely believe he is a demon in disguise, which would result in Guilliman starting a war to retake control of the empire.
> 
> Remember Guilliman was willing to enter another civil war in order to enforce the codex, he would most surely be willing to start another war to save the Empire from itself and restore the Emperor's vision.


Yeah, but I would bet Chaos would make suddenly and appropriately a summoning of two or three Primarch Daemon lost in the warp. Angron, Lorgar, Fulgrim, Magnus, Perturabo, or Mortarion, they are a lot of them in the list to counter Guilliman... Punch Abaddon would be easy, the corrupt primarch, well...

In a way, the return of Guilliman would maybe be the beginning of the true end for 40K.


----------



## Haskanael

Doom wolf said:


> Yeah, but I would bet Chaos would make suddenly and appropriately a summoning of two or three Primarch Daemon lost in the warp. Angron, Lorgar, Fulgrim, Magnus, Perturabo, or Mortarion, they are a lot of them in the list to counter Guilliman... Punch Abaddon would be easy, the corrupt primarch, well...
> 
> In a way, the return of Guilliman would maybe be the beginning of the true end for 40K.


it could also herald the return of Russ, Vulkan, and corax


----------



## Doom wolf

Haskanael said:


> it could also herald the return of Russ, Vulkan, and corax


Most probably.

And don't forget Alpharius, or Omegon, or whatever his name is. :laugh:


----------



## MontytheMighty

Khan and the Lion could join the party as well


----------



## Lux

MontytheMighty said:


> Khan and the Lion could join the party as well


Konrad Curze would join as well.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Considering KC lost his head just like Ferrus Manus, he'd need serious warp voodoo to manage to return.

Though Ive always felt that Sanguinius have the potential for ressurection. Its always rather been difficult to kill a vampire for good, and Sangy and his sons is absolutely blood fixated. 

Plus his spirit is still hanging around, if going by Rafen's visions at the end of Deus Sanguinius. For not to talk of the Sanguinor leading Rafen on for something in the Bloodline shortstory that sees him connect with his genetic forebear Meros.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Brother Lucian said:


> Considering KC lost his head just like Ferrus Manus, he'd need serious warp voodoo to manage to return.


Oooohoooohooohoooooooo. Boy are you in for a treat on this one.


----------



## Doom wolf

Brother Lucian said:


> Considering KC lost his head just like Ferrus Manus, he'd need serious warp voodoo to manage to return.


Well, if a b..tch like the Commander Eidolon can make a come back after being beheaded, why not a primarch ?

But frankly, I would fear for the one who resurrect KC, ruining his most beloved moral lesson...:biggrin:


----------



## Brother Lucian

Doom wolf said:


> Well, if a b..tch like the Commander Eidolon can make a come back after being beheaded, why not a primarch ?
> 
> But frankly, I would fear for the one who resurrect KC, ruining his most beloved moral lesson...:biggrin:


From what I remember from Soul Hunter, M'Shen ran off with the head of Curze? Eidolon only survived because Fabius was on hand to stabilize his body before it expired.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Brother Lucian said:


> From what I remember from Soul Hunter, M'Shen ran off with the head of Curze? Eidolon only survived because Fabius was on hand to stabilize his body before it expired.


Paper Mache dude. Just wait for it.


----------



## Doom wolf

Brother Lucian said:


> From what I remember from Soul Hunter, M'Shen ran off with the head of Curze? Eidolon only survived because Fabius was on hand to stabilize his body before it expired.


As I remember, Eidolon head was presented to other in a banquet or something like that, but I admit that I can be wrong. But there are others, like Cyrene in _Betrayer_ who was resurected with nothing more than mere bones...


----------



## Brother Lucian

Doom wolf said:


> As I remember, Eidolon head was presented to other in a banquet or something like that, but I admit that I can be wrong. But there are others, like Cyrene in _Betrayer_ who was resurected with nothing more than mere bones...


Thats what I meant with serious warp-voodoo, Erebus' ritual that ressurected Cyrene. But from what I recall, it cost him gravely. 

Though I think the primarchs may be a class above mere mortals in the effort needed to ressurect them. Given their major-warp nature.


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