# Corax: Soulforge Discussion (Spoilers)



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Well I've only read the inside of the cover which itself is a short story but I was right about Nykona Sharrowkyn from Angel Exterminatus and how he can become invisible so easily, it is a genetic legacy of Corax but one in which only a handful in a generation have and can only be detected by the Primarch himself, which explains why they don't do it in 40k.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Get reading! Post us some spoilers :wink:


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Well the story so far is, the Raven Guard were amassing to attack an Emperor's Children held world when a Word Bearers strike cruiser had to make an emergency drop from the warp right amongst the fleet. Corax leads the assault on it and finds a lot of the crew mutated and operated on. He finds the navigator who is actually still loyal apparently but has been forced do their bidding and has had a minor daemon in her at one stage to help navigator through the ruinstorm. 

She tells them of a small forge world where the Word Bearers are. Corax investigates with a small force, sending the remainder to the original EC held planet. Upon reaching the planet Corax scouts it himself and comes across a small group of tech priests planning a rebellion against the Archmagos who is in league with the Word Bearers, one of them is a traitor though and Corax batters him before he can turn them all in, Corax convinces them to stand with him although they are apprehensive due to the way he subjugated Kiavahr.

Corax takes command and uses a holo unit to organise the troops, it's during this is recalls doing similar things with Roboute Guilliman, and how Roboute failed to recognize that even the smallest elements could be put to good use, Roboute believed there was a distinct difference between combatants and non combatants and it took Corax beating him three times during battle simulations for him to realise this. Corax states from then on Roboute had his "mark" and never lost another battle. He believes he may of won the battle but Roboute won the War, then goes on to say while he was busy rescuing a single planet Roboute had already formed an Empire in relation to when they were discovered.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Not a fan of that Guilliman stuff. You're telling me Guilliman's tendency not to overlook minor details - the scene of him on the _Macragge's Honour_ scribbling down notes of anything and everything because of its potential importance during the opening minutes of Calth; something that clearly distinguishes Guilliman from his primarch siblings - was realised by Corax beating him in battle simulations.

What's going to happen in the next novella? Corax taught the Khan to ride a horse; he could've removed Angron's Nails but thought they looked funky and was brothers-in-arms with Captain Kirk?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

bobss said:


> Not a fan of that Guilliman stuff. You're telling me Guilliman's tendency not to overlook minor details - the scene of him on the _Macragge's Honour_ scribbling down notes of anything and everything because of its potential importance during the opening minutes of Calth; something that clearly distinguishes Guilliman from his primarch siblings - was realised by Corax beating him in battle simulations.
> 
> What's going to happen in the next novella? Corax taught the Khan to ride a horse; he could've removed Angron's Nails but thought they looked funky and was brothers-in-arms with Captain Kirk?


This was when Roboute first met each Primarch. Before he'd met Corax, Roboute believed that there was a distinct difference between combatants and non-combatants and that non-combatants could never factor into his plan. Corax believed otherwise and proved it by beating Roboute in simulations three times after this Guilliman had Corax pegged and then would forever beat him as Guilliman would factor in non-combatants and so improved as a result.

_"Guilliman tried to learn everything he could from the experiences of his brothers when he first met them. I was constantly vexing him with complaints that he focused to much on distinct military units, not taking into account possible civilian participation. To him there was a line between combatants and non-combatants that I did not see. Before our first encounter Guilliman's treatises had been swift to rule out casualty-depleted combat forces as incapable, since he was so used to wielding whole battalions and Chapters rather than handfuls of warriors. I demonstrated the error of these beliefs on several ocassions, creating effective resistance out of meager resources that roboute considered no longer viable"
_
He then states the cry of no retreat is meaningless to the Raven Guard and to be a prideful boast rather than a sensible tactical doctrine and how Guilliman didn't realise this till their third confrontation. The tech priest he is speaking to then says Corax must be proud to best one of the greatest strategos in the Imperium, Corax says no, from the Fourth simulation on, he could not beat him. 

_"He learns well, my brother, and he has far greater vision than me. While I was rescusing a single world from slavery he was already building an empire of hundreds. I won battles against him, but never a war._"


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

I understand better now. Still not hugely keen on the idea, tbh.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Well I finished it. The overall arch seemed to be Corax's reasoning for understanding why and how the Emperor works and why Corax fights for him and how he deals with the bloodshed he has to commit in the name of the Emperor. He also kind of deals with that question as to what other qualities the Primarchs have, for example he says 

_"Some, Like Rogal Dorn are architects of both fortresses and worlds, Guilliman's empire stands testament to his abilities as statesman as well as a warleader. The Emperor created us as perfect warriors and commanders, but the primarchs are far greater than simple warlords."_

The priest then asks him what do you build? Corax replies:

_"I build hope, in the hearts of men and women. I show them that from the Long Night we can emerge into enlightenment. I never perscuted those I conquerered and I never refused a surrender sincerely offered. I have shed the blood of the guilty and the innocent, laid waste to civilisations for the cause of the Emperor, but I never brought ruin needlessly. Each death was laid as a sacrifice to a better future; a life free from suppression and tyranny."_

The priest then questions wouldn't a tyrant say the same, Corax thinks he means him, but the priest corrects him and says he means the Emperor and Corax says he's touched the Emperor's mind in a way no one else can and felt the responsibility of humanity on his shoulders. Amongst other details to, but that's the jist of it.

Anyway, we come to the final battle and Corax decides to do a spear to the heart and descend with a small unit to finish the Word Bearer leader and Archmagos off. Well what I can only describe as 3 proto-defilers/blood slaughterers defend the forge were the chaos machines are being made. The Raven Guard Squad is killed by them, and Corax has trouble with them but gets some help from shadowhawk aircraft. 

After finishing with them he confronts the two lieutenants that are surrounded by cages filled with prisoners with runes cut on them, and linked to a pedestal type thing that has a small warp portal in it. Corax goes for them, and deals with the archmagos who fires a rotor cannon at him. He then confronts the Word Bearer commander whose a sorcerer in terminator armour. The sorcerer sticks his hands in the portal and his armour begins to warp and it seemed to me he became a multilator. 

Anyway the sorcerer takes forever to take down, at the end however the sorcerer states "Did you think the Primarchs were something _pure_?"

He then goes on to say, Lorgar saw the truth and he should follow his brothers on the path of righteousness. Corax says it's a lie he would of seen it (During his mind meld with the Emperor I guess) and that the Emperor told him to that lies and deceits are the only weapons Chaos truly wields. 

During the story, Corax also comes clean with Agapito about what they are truly fighting and what Chaos is. Agapito seems to be almost bezerker like at stages, wanting nothing but to kill traitors, the first time nearly sees the ship they capture blow up because he disobeyed an order and went for the Word Bearers instead of capturing the generator room. He nearly does it at the end to when he sees the banner of a Word Bearer who had chased them down on Istvaan V, but the words of Corax come back to him and he relents and does his duty.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Nykona Sharrowkyn from Angel Exterminatus and how he can become invisible so easily, it is a genetic legacy of Corax but one in which only a handful in a generation have


I guess that's an OK explanation. Talos has some of Curze's prophetic power. I suppose an RG can have some sort of cloaking ability similar to Corax's. Something about a "wraith-slipping" marine just strikes me as a tad overpowered though...like an "I WIN" button

I'm just glad that McNeill hasn't given Russ's "psychic" howl to a handful of Space Wolves


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Arrived earlier today, and after having finished it I am left looking at the awful 40€ gap in my wallet that was burned on this thing. 

It started out surprisingly well with the boarding action and all, but Chapter II forward it was rubbish, if we are putting it plainly. But then, what was I expecting from Thorpe? 

I really, really hated the part with the Word Bearers Librarian going toe to toe with Corax. The fact that the fight took like four pages goes beyond belief. It seems the guy was thrown in just for the sake of obligatory Primarch-duels-with-something-uber-powerful-that-nothing-else-can-stop scene. I just could not take this scene seriously. The Librarian apparently was so good at roaring that when he shouted "Enough!" it almost deafened Corax, then he proceeded to punch Corax in the jaw hard enough to make the Primarch fly a dozen meters. The guy did not even take notice of the strikes that Corax was throwing at him at first. Then in the classic fashion our hero in the end finds some inner power of uber awesomeness and kills the guy. Twice. It was comically bad imo. 

I was also left with the feeling that several story treads were left annoyingly hanging. After he kills the Word Bearers Librarian it jumps straight to a half page Epilogue, where he is about to kill a Navigator that was found on the Word Bearers ship in Chapter I. The End. Wtf happened to the other guys in the story? Agapito? The Techpriests that sided with Corax? Plain rubbish ending if you ask me. 

Nothing particularly groundbreaking was revealed and the most interesting part of the book was probably the short story on the inside of the cover.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I agree, I tried to pick the important parts from the story but I was hard pressed to find any juicy points, so I did my best. Imo it wasn't worth the money and other Novellas like Aurelian, Brotherhood of the Storm and Promethean Sun were a lot better.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I agree, I tried to pick the important parts from the story but I was hard pressed to find any juicy points, so I did my best. Imo it wasn't worth the money and other Novellas like Aurelian, Brotherhood of the Storm and Promethean Sun were a lot better.


Aurelian and Brotherhood were both a lot better I agree, but I’d say that Promethean Sun was just as shit if not worse. Probably the latter.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I only really like Promethean Sun because it gave us our first true look at Vulkan


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## Khyzer (Dec 22, 2012)

I totally found this to be a rather fun read and a nice distraction for the time being. Now in no way did I find this book to be worth the price tag that Black Library deemed it worthy of, but I still enjoyed reading about my favorite loyalist legion. I fail to see what warrants this as a *collectors edition* rather then just a simple novella like _Shadowsun_, _Yarrick: Chains of Golgotha_, or _The Masque of Vyle_.

One part that made me stop and question what I knew, was pg. 39-40, where Corax is seen by an infant child. This is apparently enough to register the thought of how his gene gift of "clouding his presence to the perception of others" will be put to the test due to his ability "being not without limit," and he should find an alternate route with less chance of running into more people.

Yet if I recall correctly, in _Ravens Flight_ also written by Gav Thrope, doesn't he walk down into the midst of hundreds of traitors to see first hand the extent of the treachery and loss that occurred on Isstavan? I am sure I am not remembering exactly how it went down as it has been forever since I heard that audio drama. But his gift just seemed very opposite to how I remember it being.

How can his gift be strained by the minds of simple humans if he could easily block his presence to steeled and tested minds of the Astartes?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I think there's the ability to alter a persons perception of him and then the ability to simply make himself appear invisible, that's the best I can explanation I can come up with though, I agree though it's very sketchy, probably easier to put it down to the fact it's different writers.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Doelago said:


> I really, really hated the part with the Word Bearers Librarian going toe to toe with Corax. The fact that the fight took like four pages goes beyond belief. It seems the guy was thrown in just for the sake of obligatory Primarch-duels-with-something-uber-powerful-that-nothing-else-can-stop scene. I just could not take this scene seriously. The Librarian apparently was so good at roaring that when he shouted "Enough!" it almost deafened Corax, then he proceeded to punch Corax in the jaw hard enough to make the Primarch fly a dozen meters. The guy did not even take notice of the strikes that Corax was throwing at him at first. Then in the classic fashion our hero in the end finds some inner power of uber awesomeness and kills the guy. Twice. It was comically bad imo.


I disagree vehemently. I really enjoyed the duel between Corax and Natharkin because it was something that challenged Corax, not an enemy he could just plow through as is usually the case with Primarchs. They are not invincible as the death of Ferrus Manus proves and non-Primarchs can fight them as Dorn's death proves. A Terminator-Librarian/Sorcerer amplified by a direct connection to the Warp, and as long as the portal was open he was continuously flooded with otherworldly strength, is definitely something that imo can at least last against a Primarch. He was never going to win, but that he lasted at all made the fight that much better and gave Corax his first glimpse of what Chaos truly is.

And Corax did not find some inner uber power. He won because Natharkin made the same mistake Kor Phaeron did against Guilliman. He didn't finish his enemy off when he had the chance and his enemy took that chance to kill him. Corax kept going in the fight because... he's a Primarch of course. He was challenged briefly by Natharkin and won by being smarter than he was, and because Natharkin wouldn't shut up.

I fail to see how a psychic roar is comically bad. He screamed, amplified by the Warp and his connection to the rift, and that nearly deafened Corax with it's sheer power and force, do you have a problem with Howling Banshees as well? Because as I recall they do something along the same lines, actually no they do the exact same thing. And yeah he didn't notice Corax's strikes at first, because he was hopped up on a flood of Warp energy and had likely moved far beyond pain.


LotN


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## Khyzer (Dec 22, 2012)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I think there's the ability to alter a persons perception of him and then the ability to simply make himself appear invisible, that's the best I can explanation I can come up with though, I agree though it's very sketchy, probably easier to put it down to the fact it's different writers.


I still believe it is only one gene gifted "power" that Corax is capable of, and it has all been detailed by the same author, Gav Thrope. I know the idea for him having an invisibility type attribute was brought up long ago, but it was Gav Thorpe in _Ravens Flight_ and _Deliverance Lost_ who finally detailed it, and by detailed it I mean barely scratched the surface lol. Now in Ravens Flight he uses this ability to walk amongst the traitor legions and really take in the impact of just what has changed in the universe. Then Gav gives us the "Mor Deythans" or Shadowmasters as genetic legacies of Corax who share a shred of his ability. And now finally we see him using this exact "Invisibility" trait again in _Corax: Soulforge_ only now he mentions how it has a limit and this human population at the darkest and quietest of its existence, will tax that ability. I just found it too disproportionate to how it was displayed earlier is all. :dunno:


I also agree with LotN about the final fight. His arm is literally embedded in the very warp itself feeding him with power and strength, it isn't implausible to believe he could take a few punches before being taken down. Here the Gods of Chaos had a willing pawn at their disposal facing off against a Primarch. Not surprising at all they would feed him tons of power even without a sacrifice or "proving himself to them" in the small chance he could defeat a Primarch at this opportune time. Least that is how I saw the whole ordeal go down.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Lord of the Night said:


> They are not invincible as the death of Ferrus Manus proves and non-Primarchs can fight them as Dorn's death proves.


Ferrus Manus was cut down by a fellow Primarch. 

We know next to nothing about the details of Dorn's death. So who killed him remains unknown.



Lord of the Night said:


> 'A Terminator-Librarian/Sorcerer amplified by a direct connection to the Warp, and as long as the portal was open he was continuously flooded with otherworldly strength, is definitely something that imo can at least last against a Primarch.'


Pretty much any sorcerer in WH40k is 'continuously flooded' with Warp energy.

The Kor Phaeron/Gullliman fight in KnF was sketchy at best. Gully went down too fast. 

But in any case, KP is not a minor character like this nameless mustache-twirling Word Bearer sorcerer so it's somewhat believable he could bring a Primarch to his knees.



Lord of the Night said:


> And Corax did not find some inner uber power. He won because Natharkin made the same mistake Kor Phaeron did against Guilliman. He didn't finish his enemy off when he had the chance and his enemy took that chance to kill him. Corax kept going in the fight because... he's a Primarch of course. He was challenged briefly by Natharkin and won by being smarter than he was, and because Natharkin wouldn't shut up.


So this nameless plot-device sorcerer who will never reappear again or have a presence in the overall lore won only because he was giving the typical bad guy speech before killing the hero? At least in KnF, K.Phaeron had his reasons for hesitating to finish off Gully for right when he was about to move in for the kill, the idea of converting Gully to Chaos struck him.



Khyzer said:


> I also agree with LotN about the final fight. His arm is literally embedded in the very warp itself feeding him with power and strength, it isn't implausible to believe he could take a few punches before being taken down. Here the Gods of Chaos had a willing pawn at their disposal facing off against a Primarch. Not surprising at all they would feed him tons of power even without a sacrifice or "proving himself to them" in the small chance he could defeat a Primarch at this opportune time. Least that is how I saw the whole ordeal go down.


So what's the difference between this sorcerer and Horus during his fight with the Emperor? For all intents and purposes, Corax should have been killed instantly.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I don't think the book had enough uniqueness to it for it to be a novella, it could of easily of been a short story in an anthology.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Ferrus Manus was cut down by a fellow Primarch.
> 
> We know next to nothing about the details of Dorn's death. So who killed him remains unknown.
> 
> ...




You folks are so short-sighted. The chaos gods are long term planners. As I see it, they planned for Corax to have a martial victory there, but they won the true mental fight. As is clearly evident from the story, a seed of doubt had been placed in Corax's mind regarding his father. Which might ultimately lead to Corax exiling himself as we know eventually will happen.


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## Khyzer (Dec 22, 2012)

Brother Lucian said:


> You folks are so short-sighted. The chaos gods are long term planners. As I see it, they planned for Corax to have a martial victory there, but they won the true mental fight. As is clearly evident from the story, a seed of doubt had been placed in Corax's mind regarding his father. Which might ultimately lead to Corax exiling himself as we know eventually will happen.


Exactly!! While at the moment we have Corax consoling himself with the words of his father, "Lies and deceit are the weapons of Chaos", yet underneath it all he recognizes that the best lies are based on a bit of truth as well. So the seeds of doubt are definitely sown in my eyes (as well as in Agapito's when he is comparing the new modified Raven Guard with the daemons unleashed by the Word Bearers). 

Also with regards to Natharkin being a "nameless plot device sorcerer" I think that is a bit of a cynical way of viewing the story... As ADB has attempted to stress to us about 1000 times now... the ranks of Space Marines contain hundreds, if not thousands, of potential badass Marines. Just because the lore we have so far mentions a few names out of the thousands of Space Marines, doesn't mean those are the only ones that will ever achieve greatness... If you just use your imagination a tad bit, this attempt at a rise to daemonhood by Natharkin is similar to the way the Warsmith from _Storm of Iron_ was attempting to enter daemonhood. Though unlike the Warsmiths success, Natharkin happened to run into a fucking Primarch lol.

I get the book cost a lot of money and people wanted so much more out of this then we received, myself included... I just believe people are being to bitchy and picky about the series and the authors involved. This also coming from a guy who enjoyed _Fear to Tread_, _Outcast Dead_, _Prospero Burns_, _Battle of the Abyss_, and _Nemesis_. Did I see flaws in those books, absolutely, but not enough to utterly trash the book lol. So with all that, I doubt my opinion matters to much of any of you haha.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The Chaos pantheon never deviate from their Great Game except for huge exceptions like the Emperor, Horus, and Abaddon.

Some nobody Word Bearer fighting Corax on some random planet? No.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Oh you are sorely mistaken, so much of the games of the dark gods revolve around tainting, twisting and turning the primarchs. Look at Lorgar and Magnus.

And by his own words Corax said his ideal was not building empires like guiliman, but hope in the hearts of men with his deeds. And to taint such a being like him with doubt and eventual despair over what his fathers imperium is revealed to be. Such a most delicious dish of anguish for the dark gods.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Khyzer said:


> Also with regards to Natharkin being a "nameless plot device sorcerer" I think that is a bit of a cynical way of viewing the story... As ADB has attempted to stress to us about 1000 times now... the ranks of Space Marines contain hundreds, if not thousands, of potential badass Marines. Just because the lore we have so far mentions a few names out of the thousands of Space Marines, doesn't mean those are the only ones that will ever achieve greatness.


Well said sir, well said.



Khyzer said:


> I get the book cost a lot of money and people wanted so much more out of this then we received, myself included... I just believe people are being to bitchy and picky about the series and the authors involved. This also coming from a guy who enjoyed _Fear to Tread_, _Outcast Dead_, _Prospero Burns_, _Battle of the Abyss_, and _Nemesis_. Did I see flaws in those books, absolutely, but not enough to utterly trash the book lol. So with all that, I doubt my opinion matters to much of any of you haha.


I liked all of those bar BotA which I did not hate but I did not like either, and I found PB to be underwhelming but acceptable. And i've not read TOD.

I like your opinion. You aren't complaining constantly like many others, you see flaws and note them but you don't trash the book over them, so I quite like what your saying. And I agree, too much complaining about series and authors for my liking. Everyone seems to think that the authors don't have a clue, I on the other hand think they are good at what they do and since they are the authors, they are privy to thinks we aren't and as such write with those things in mind.



Malus Darkblade said:


> We know next to nothing about the details of Dorn's death. So who killed him remains unknown.


Actually we do. Dorn was "dragged down by hundreds of screaming killers," at least according to _Prince of Crows_. My point is that the Primarchs are not invincible and it would just be bad if the only thing that can fight a Primarch is another Primarch.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Pretty much any sorcerer in WH40k is 'continuously flooded' with Warp energy.
> 
> The Kor Phaeron/Gullliman fight in KnF was sketchy at best. Gully went down too fast.
> 
> But in any case, KP is not a minor character like this nameless mustache-twirling Word Bearer sorcerer so it's somewhat believable he could bring a Primarch to his knees.


No they are not. They have what warp energy they can handle. Natharkin was fully flooded with it by connection to an open warp rift. Like a battery on charge, he could not be depleted.

In your opinion. I think that he went down because he did not fully understand what it was to fight a Chaos Lord, but he turned it around once he got a grasp of it.

That's in your opinion. Just because Natharkin has never appeared before, and probably never will again, does not mean he was weak or pathetic. He tapped the Warp directly and unleashed a lot of power against Corax, and he only managed to last against him for a short while. I think that a Terminator-Librarian mutated into a very very powerful psyker-creature with a direct connection to the Warp through an open portal lasting against one of the Primarchs that isn't considered one of the strongest is entire believable.



Malus Darkblade said:


> So this nameless plot-device sorcerer who will never reappear again or have a presence in the overall lore won only because he was giving the typical bad guy speech before killing the hero? At least in KnF, K.Phaeron had his reasons for hesitating to finish off Gully for right when he was about to move in for the kill, the idea of converting Gully to Chaos struck him.


No, he lost because of that. If he had kept fighting he might have lasted longer but he would have lost anyway. His ego made him lose faster, that is all. And that is exactly what Natharkin was trying to do, convert Corax by convincing him that the Primarchs are inherently tainted and that Corax's destiny is to join Horus. Corax took the opportunity during his proletysing, which he noted earlier that Word Bearers have a weakness for, to decapitate him with his lightning claws.



Malus Darkblade said:


> So what's the difference between this sorcerer and Horus during his fight with the Emperor? For all intents and purposes, Corax should have been killed instantly.


Oh come on, that rebuttal is just intentionally facetious. Horus had the blessing of all the Gods and was one of the strongest Primarchs physically and psychically. Natharkin was connected to an active warp rift yes but he was still just Astartes, he could only take in so much power and last so long. Horus could handle much more power because he was inherently stronger.


LotN


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## Lord of Ruin (Jul 22, 2012)

I have just finished this and it must be said that Gav Thorpe listened to feedback about Deliverence Lost. Firstly i really really enjoyed Deliverence Lost however, there were a few misteps, one such mistep being that Gav's Raven Guard came across as abit bland and uninteresting, showing no really unique legion attributes other than attack, retreat and attack again. This time around we get to see just how technical and clever the legion works when fighting a war their way and the battle descriptions set throughout this novella were very well pulled off. I loved also how Gav also inscribed Grahams character Sharrowkin's abilities into a mini short, set within the cover (which was a brilliant idea on BL front).

All in all a very good story depicting an epic battle set on a forge world where cities float above oceans. Corax was superb through out and again Gav has shown just how badass this Primarch really is, especially since Deliverence we barely saw him do much fighting at all.

Was the novella worth the asking price? No. Perhaps if it was £10 cheaper then yes. It must be said however that the internal art and cover is a improvement on previous over priced Novellas, so at least BL are heading inthe right direction.


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