# Convince me not to sell fantasy



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Can somone please convince me that Fantasy hasn't just become a magical cesspit of powergaming? Because I really have almost no motivation for it anymore. My main army (dwarfs) has no magic. So I am kind of out of the OP running. I can still shut down magic like a champ, and blow people away. But so much of the entire game just relies on winds, and how many 6's he can roll it seems.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Umm... 9th Edition is only 3 years away and I'm going to force feed Mat Ward his own (still attached) testicles twice over.

The fluff is good compared to 40K (Phil Kelly wrote it; the one thing he should stick to).

Tamurkhan is coming out soon...

Umm... 9th Edition is only 3 years away and I'm going to force feed Mat Ward his own (still attached) testicles twice over.

Yeah, that's all I got too. It's fairly pitiful.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

That is pretty much were I am sitting too. The game can still be great, when you play somone who hasn't spammed a BRB lore(s) and just maxed on wizards/dice. But hardly anyone does that, everyone plays to cream in their opponents face.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Is a shame as other than crazy magic and random charges the current edition isn't that bad, though personally I still prefer 7th though

I find it laughable that many of the brb lores are considerbly better than high magic and lore of tzeentch

why don't you see if people would play prior editions if its just the ed. that you don't like?


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## moo (Aug 12, 2008)

Perhaps rather than FB being the one to spoil your game, maybe it's the other players?
I met up with the gaming group here in Dubai yesterday and they actually have 2 groups of people, ones who powergame and play super competitive and those who play casual. It works brilliantly.


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## Durzod (Nov 24, 2009)

Don't sell if you can avoid it. Just pack the Dwarfs away and pick up one of the smaller scale games to tide you over until 9th comes out. Find out what alternate games are being played and see which one(s) strike your fancy. Myself, I'm getting into Flames of War. It's almost as popular as GWs games locally, and since WWII is nobody's IP, you can shop around to find cheap alternative miniatures. 

Or you could try to get some of your fellow travelers to give Kings of War a try. The rules are free and more races are being added (they already have undead, elves, dwarfs, chaos dwarfs and now orcs). New rules with the same minis may be the way to go.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Durzod said:


> Don't sell if you can avoid it. Just pack the Dwarfs away and pick up one of the smaller scale games to tide you over until 9th comes out.


This. I've lost count of the number of people who have sold armies and moved on, just to later regret the decision, come back to the game, and rebuy their army all over again. I can't convince you that 8th edition doesn't have the problems you described, but I will say that you should just skip this edition if you don't like it. Wait for 9th.


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## Troublehalf (Aug 6, 2010)

I have not even played a Fantasy game, let alone 8th Ed. I am not well enough to get out of bed to paint/make models let alone go 6 miles to my local GW. It's been 3 years since I was bed ridden with my illness, and one of the things keeping me going, is finishing my Lizardmen army and finally getting down to Oxford GW and playing a game.

Perhaps you should try looking at the game as not a job and as a, well, game. I know you probably believe you do take it as a game, but if you are thinking of selling, you must be unhappy about something. If I was playing, I'd happily listen to peoples suggestions/desires, even if they asked me to loose my Slann or play without magic. I don't mind, in fact, I'd relish it! Imagine beating a guy as Lizardmen without a Slann or any magic user... brilliant! 

I dunno, I'm not you, perhaps you could shelf thee Dwarfs and buy a 1500 point side army, maybe a magic potent one! HE are pretty awesome, Teclis is stupidly good (If only Lord Kroak was alive, he'd kick his ass!) DE have pretty pro magic and very nice looking models, I've started work on a DE force (I really shouldn't! I need to finish my Lizzies) to go on my diorama board. You could also take a break altogether and try other games, boards or something. Perhaps a Card collecting game.


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## Flindo (Oct 30, 2010)

because its funner than 40K?


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Flindo said:


> because its funner than 40K?


I don't play 40k any more. But to be honest, it isn't more fun than 40k. "LMFAO I just totally powerscrolled you with 6 dice, eat pit of shades I2 Dwarfs! HAHA IM SO PRO!!!"


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## Drannith (Sep 18, 2010)

sounds like you really need to go for more casual games, I keep hearing about powerscroll bs and what not. From my experience so far with fantasy and the group I play with, I like fantasy more than 40k. Things seem a bit more balanced rules and army wise but I guess I haven't been up against the ultra WAAC people to see how broken armies really are.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Personally, i would consider using your dwarf models to play Kings of War.
You can download the rules and army lists free from the Mantic website, so it wont cost you a cent to start playing.

Rules are quick and easy to learn (you should be able to learn them in 10 minutes), games take half the time to play than what Fantasy takes, and the game is a LOT of fun.

And best thing of all... the rules are simple enough that people aren't able to exploit loopholes for power gaming. Everything is pretty much balanced.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Looking into Kings of War as I type, perhaps hope is not lost. I really do not want to sell, have been collecting them since I was 12, so nice to know hope may not be lost.


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## Troublehalf (Aug 6, 2010)

You say you don't like PowerScroll Pit of Shades on your dwarfs. However... perhaps you could think about us Lizard players who are just as screwed, if not more. I1 on core units, and I4 on Skinks. That is terrible. We'd be loosing units by the dozen against magic heavy armies, our only protection is Slann and Priests dispelling such magic. Sometimes you can't tho. 

Don't give in! Try some other games, have fun games. I've always wanted to borrow dozens of cannons, build a rampart 'hill' place the cannons and such on the hill. Have some basic units like handgunners and stuff..... then go against a massive force, one you couldn't possibly win (as the cannon owners) and see how many you can kill before you die


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> I don't play 40k any more. But to be honest, it isn't more fun than 40k. "LMFAO I just totally powerscrolled you with 6 dice, eat pit of shades I2 Dwarfs! HAHA IM SO PRO!!!"


to be honest it sounds like you are playing with douche bags.

in my area if we want to play some fun games (90% of the time) we ban.

Book of Hoth,
Power scroll
the last spell from every lore in the rule book, and the dreaded 13th spell.

War machines have a 0-1 limit each.

you will find how much more fun and balance the game is after that


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Yeah, never sell your main army! I have done this in the past and regret it. I think everyone has.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

I wouldn't sell your army, simply because it's YOUR army. It's something you've put so much time and effort into it, that it's become a part of you, part of your legacy in this life. Selling it would be like selling some of your memories. Whoever bought it would enjoy it, but it wouldn't be theirs, not really.

As for Warhammer, I've tried it myself and found it to be daunting, simply because of how magic works in this new edition (seen my Chaos Warriors army picked apart by the Wind of Death a couple of times), and that's put me off a bit. Compared to 40k, Warhammer is exceedingly complicated with its armour modifiers, rules regarding ranks and a whole slew of other things which I can't quite fathom.

Anyhow don't sell your army, not when you've put so many years into it.


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## Stargazer616 (May 15, 2011)

Hey, I was chatting with a guy at a local hobby store.
Him and his mate got rid of the magic turn, totally, he reckoned it made the game so much better as it became all about tactics rather than blasting people away with magic.

Obviously this totally messes up some armies, but maybe suggest it to the people you're playing with - to try and make things fairer!


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> Looking into Kings of War as I type, perhaps hope is not lost. I really do not want to sell, have been collecting them since I was 12, so nice to know hope may not be lost.


I know the feeling, i've been collecting brets since 5th ed, and it was a damned shame putting them away in the cupboard after giving up on 8th, but at least I still have them if I ever change my mind. They sat out most of 6th ed too, but i'm glad i hung onto them.

Meanwhile, I'd recommend trying Warmachine if you want something a little different for a while. Its very cheap to start an army (the $50 boxed sets are awesome) and it's a crapload of fun to play. Whatever you choose though, i hope it works for you!

EDIT: just noticed you're on the wm/h boards already, so my recommendation is a little late anyway!


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## Flindo (Oct 30, 2010)

Troublehalf said:


> You say you don't like PowerScroll Pit of Shades on your dwarfs. However... perhaps you could think about us Lizard players who are just as screwed, if not more. I1 on core units, and I4 on Skinks. That is terrible. We'd be loosing units by the dozen against magic heavy armies, our only protection is Slann and Priests dispelling such magic. Sometimes you can't tho.
> 
> Don't give in! Try some other games, have fun games. I've always wanted to borrow dozens of cannons, build a rampart 'hill' place the cannons and such on the hill. Have some basic units like handgunners and stuff..... then go against a massive force, one you couldn't possibly win (as the cannon owners) and see how many you can kill before you die


I completely disagree with you, I play Lizardmen and they are a very cheesy army.


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## Lord Solar Terminus (Aug 6, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Umm... 9th Edition is only 3 years away and I'm going to force feed Mat Ward his own (still attached) testicles twice over.
> 
> The fluff is good compared to 40K (Phil Kelly wrote it; the one thing he should stick to)


Whaaa...? Kelly has written the two best codices out right now. Okay, Wolves have some screwed up pricing (to their benefit, at least), but the Dark Eldar is one of the best books they've ever produced. Not to mention having the best model line.

I'd say wait until this summer of magic and see how things shake out (although every indication is that magic will go more OTT).

And if you've ever enjoyed your dwarves, I say keep them. There will be a rules change in three years, but repurchasing the army then will probably cost you twice as much. Unless you're strapped for cash or work out a good trade, it's rarely worth it to sell your army.

As for the power scroll, either play in tourneys that don't allow it, ask your friends not to use it, or use multiple smaller blocks of stubborn infantry.


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## HereticHammer01 (Apr 29, 2011)

Yeah a lot of people seem to be disillusioned with the latest edition. I actually decided to start in it, maybe because I liked the idea of all the randomness and wackiness despite it maybe making the actual game far more luck than skill.

But yeah if a lot of people are disillusioned its bound to change for 9th, and if not the expansions might change your mind so... try the upcoming one at least perhaps.


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## Durzod (Nov 24, 2009)

A friend pointed out that the odd numbered editions of WFB are tweaks of the previous edition and it's the even numbers where the big changes come in. Hopefully 9th Ed will be given to someone competent. Matt ward had some good ideas for 8th ed, it's just the execution that sux. That and GW's obsession with TLOS!


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## Luisjoey (Dec 3, 2010)

Sell it and play WARHAMMER 40K! 

no magic and more action! 

i like 40k because no real magic in game, just tactic.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Luisjoey said:


> Sell it and play WARHAMMER 40K!
> 
> no magic and more action!
> 
> i like 40k because no real magic in game, just tactic.


No, you play it because Games Workshop advertised Space Marines and guns and stuff. And you either decided to follow their advise and play SM, or be an arse, and go against them.

And there's no tactics in 40K, lol. It's "pick and army and win". Why do you think people played Fantasy in the past? Because it required skill to win, not the ability to choose a powerful list. Now though, it's gone to pot.



Lord Solar Terminus said:


> Whaaa...? Kelly has written the two best codices out right now. Okay, Wolves have some screwed up pricing (to their benefit, at least), but the Dark Eldar is one of the best books they've ever produced. Not to mention having the best model line.


Eldar 4th Edition? And it's not about 40K. he can do what he wants in 40K, but keep him the fuck away from Fantasy, unless he's writing fluff. Also, he's nothing to do with the models.

And Dark Eldar is poor; tournament wise, monobuild, and many armies are still able to counter it, and produce similar tactics with similar results. It might well be one of the best (and I play Dark Eldar) in terms of overall feel - But what about when the list is up against shit like SW's and BA's?

There's only so much.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Just like this edition of fantasy is "how much magic can you cast" edition, the current ed. of 40K is "how many cars did you bring" ed. Every single edition has had a game-orbiting crutch, both in Fantasy and in 40K, skill has nothing to do with it. Either you get an edition that through sheer luck turns out to require skill or you don't. Berating one system for it's current crutches is pointless and idiotic.

And yes, the Dark Eldar codex is unquestionably one of the, if not THE, best army book GW have ever produced regardless of system, and it's not just monobuild. There are actually 2 top-tier beating lists, one is the Hellion revolving list, one is Venom spam - but here's the kicker: it's all metagame. If this wasn't "how many cars did you bring" edition, Wych swarm could be the killer, or even Incubi death stars.

Dark Eldar have tons of viable builds compared to all GW armies under all systems, but the current meta only allows for two to perform exceptionally.

In 6 months-12 months time it will all be ancient history, and Dark Eldar are one of the top contenders to have a response for whatever becomes flavor of the next half decade. Nature of the game(s).

Unfortunately, some editions are really shitty, and I'm afraid the current Fantasy one is comparable to 40K's 3rd edition in it's rock bottom shittyness. But cheer up, GW usually makes the edition to follow exquisite to make up for the abuse.


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## Lord Solar Terminus (Aug 6, 2009)

I feel the current edition of fantasy, while far from perfect, is still by far the best and most fun version of the fantasy ruleset so far. It is designed for narrative battles and they are not apologetic about that fact one bit. Nor should they be. The only people "disillusioned" by the edition are tournament gamers from 7th edition that can't adapt to their cavalry bus not auto-winning the game on turn 2 anymore. Them and Chaos Daemon players. Conversely, people that played in 5th edition and before seem to be flocking back to the game. 

The issue with magic is overstated, and is only really a problem if you love your super deathstars. Start building armies without mega-deathstars, and maybe magic won't be as uber as you think. Spells like the Dreaded 13th and Purple Sun are precisely designed to curb such mega units. Or if you really hate magic, just curtail the power scroll or the highest level of spell. This is easy to do in a friendly setting, and again, the game is designed to be a beer & pretzel narrative battles game, it is not designed for tournament competition.

If you want a tournament-balanced ruleset, you shouldn't be turning to GW's products anyway.


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## Durzod (Nov 24, 2009)

Lumping all the players disillusioned with 8th edition under the umbrella of "Tournament Gamers" is like all generalities: stupid and shortsighted. There are those of us who have been gaming for many years (in my case probably longer than you've been breathing) who had come to expect more out of Warhammer than this. Experience with a plethora of games (from chess thru board games on into historicals and other miniature games) has given me an idea of what makes a good game. 

With meaningless terrain, True Line of Sight and super spells, 8th ed is a giant step backward for the game. Streamlining the game is one thing, but trying to turn it into 40k with swords is another. Don't get me wrong, I think Matt Ward had some good ideas, it's just that he didn't carry them out well. The magic system is probably the best it's been. It's just that many of the lores and spells weren't thought out too well. If I sit down to play a wargame, I do so with the hope that there's a chance of victory and that the game won't take more time to set up than play. With 8th ed these are all too often not the case. The idea that we need to tell our opponents that they can't use part of their army or some of the rules to make it "fair" shows that the game has issues.

I think you are right that the game was designed as a beer and pretzels (well, maybe more soda and Gummi Bears) game. No thinking involved once you get to the table, just rush straight forward and throw a bunch of dice. Unfortunately that's not what we signed up for. Not all of us anyway. 

And if the game is not designed for tournament competition it is a failure, as GW runs a heck of a lot of tournaments! Don't play in them myself, as they are never near enough, though I try to get involved in the local tournaments. Funny thing, though. Since 8th ed came out there have been only two monthly tournaments with enough participants to run. No problem with 40k or Warmachine. Even Flames of War fills the hall when they have an event. But not Fantasy.

Enough rant for now.


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## blackspine (Jun 9, 2010)

Sorry you're a bit dissalusioned.
You're running with one of the toughest armies out there to face. Magic, being a HUGE part of this edition, could make you feel a bit robbed as you're dwarves.

I know dwarves suffer from low I, and a lot of spells target that mercilessly, (see pit of shades), but many armies suffer from that, and cannot bring several 'scrolls'/ runes. 
Playing into the 'big blocks of infantry' of this edition, means that you're more easily targeted. 

I've seen some fun dwarf builds. A dwarf player, who was a great guy, with amazing army, slaughtered me with a 'combat army' and shut me down. Maybe it's dwarves themselves that are getting static?

I've been having fun with beastmen. They're no prize pig, but there's a lot of options and fun uphill challenges that I'm facing. There are some armies that I roll my eyes at, and the traditional 'uber builds', but that's half the challenge of competition.

On that note, playing people who constantly take just jerk-tastic armies is not going to make fun for ANYONE. Facing Tecilis and his phoenix panzy brigade of 'lolzwinz' is less than ideal...and not how I want to spend a few hours. So maybe just have your friends shake it up.


My first thought, oddly, was

Buy a unit of goblins. Call them hobgoblins....and play as chaos dwarves. 
Win. 
Win
win.

That's just me. And I never meant that to make sense.

Good luck man!


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Lord Solar Terminus said:


> I feel the current edition of fantasy, while far from perfect, is still by far the best and most fun version of the fantasy ruleset so far. It is designed for narrative battles and they are not apologetic about that fact one bit. Nor should they be. The only people "disillusioned" by the edition are tournament gamers from 7th edition that can't adapt to their cavalry bus not auto-winning the game on turn 2 anymore. Them and Chaos Daemon players. Conversely, people that played in 5th edition and before seem to be flocking back to the game.


I think you should start having a look at the armies which did well in 7th. Dwarves, Empire, High Elves, Dark Elves, Daemons, and Warriors of Chaos.

None of them for their cavalry based armies.

Look at the 8th Edition best armies - Daemons, Empire, High Elves, Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Warriors of Chaos. The Difference? Dwarves have switched places with Lizardmen. Why? Because of magic.

Also, for those of us who started in 6th edition, and with ravening hordes, the game has gone far, far worse. Although I can understand the appeal that 5th edition hero-hammer players of some 100pt snotty nosed Empire Shadow/Death Wizard dropping his Pit of Shades and killing everything.



> The issue with magic is overstated, and is only really a problem if you love your super deathstars. Start building armies without mega-deathstars, and maybe magic won't be as uber as you think.





> Spells like the Dreaded 13th


That's a character sniper, tbh. It's too easy to roll a couple of bum ones and ruin the cast.



> and Purple Sun are precisely designed to curb such mega units.


You mean a bouncing RiP spell which kills small units just as easy? If you lose 10 men from a big unit or all 10 men from a small unit, you've still lost those 10 men.



> Or if you really hate magic, just curtail the power scroll or the highest level of spell.


That's not exactly the point of playing 8th edition though is it? If the answer of trying to work out why 8th edition is so bad, yet the best answer to give 



> This is easy to do in a friendly setting, and again, the game is designed to be a beer & pretzel narrative battles game, it is not designed for tournament competition.


Of course we can all have fun. Naturally. But I'd much rather have fun using a good ruleset. 6th Edition was fantastic, and with lapping around etc, which lead to a much more narrative minded ruleset - just because people were too thick to take the time to understand them, it was removed. I remember the days when there was a proper 7 page tactica on just that rule in White Dwarf as well. Again, though, the issue is, changing the rules in 8th isn't exactly the best answer to give when you're trying to say that 8th is the best game to play, and that it's perfectly suited to more narrative gameplay.



> If you want a tournament-balanced ruleset, you shouldn't be turning to GW's products anyway.


Course not, I'd be playing chess.

But I'm not, I'm playing GW products, and telling me to either change the rules, or change the game is hardly a good answer.

As my teachers used to say - Good effort, must try harder next time.


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