# Wyverns - OP?



## mahavira (Jan 10, 2010)

I've been looking at the new IG codex, and trying to wrap my mind around the points cost of a wyvern. The cost is very similar to a heavy weapons squad with mortars (which may itself be overpriced, I suppose, never used one), but by any measure I can think of a wyvern is head, shoulders and belly button superior, and to be honest I'm not really coming up with much that is a similar point cost that has anything like the same effect. Is it just that I play against Orks a lot that makes the point cost look insanely low?


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## ThePorcupine (Jul 21, 2012)

I think the wyvern is overhyped. It's better than the mortal team, of course. But it also eats up a heavy slot, which is infinitely more valuable. It's good against exactly one thing, masses of low armor infantry. You put that infantry in transports and you're golden. The wyvern is extremely specialized, and I dislike it for that reason. If you're not facing hordes of low armor infantry, it doesn't do jack ****. The manticore, in comparison, can fill multiple roles. It threatens higher armor, it instakills just about anything it hits due to ridiculous strength, and it's very good anti-vehicle as well as being anti-horde.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

It will eat guardsman, cultists, orks, gaunts, guardians, kabilites and plaguebearers alive. Since these are all fairly common scoring units, why would you not take a minimal investment to ruin their day? My two biggest backfield scoring units are cultists and plaguebearers, so I already hate this thing. Ludicrous damage (when firing at its preferred targets) for its cost.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

Honestly, 2 wyverns should be autoincluded in every AM army. 130 pts for 8 mothafuking rerolling scatter, shredding, frag templates... specialized it is, yes, but so cheap that you laugh at your opponent longfangs. It will also eat alive MEQ due to ridiculous hits amount inflicted. An average 8 wyvern blasts on top of ten marines (considering the average scatter) will end with the superhumans losing 6-8 models. Brutal. Squadroning here is your friend. 2 wyvern, 2 russes/demolishers, a manticore. Heavy slots filled and yes, shit just hit the fan.
It's not op, its underpriced. And it becomes nobrainer for this simple reason.
This my take on it.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

You may as well take 3 for that price. 12 blasts in a barrage? Hell yeah. As Nef said, the sheer number of armour saves MEQ units will have to take will do for them in the end.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Yeah I definitely agree with the fear for cultists. I usually try to split up troops between cultists and marines in rhinos, though. 

For a future AM army, can't wait to use this.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

If they were even vaguely survivable, they'd be good, but as it is I don't think they're that great. You still can't target out of Line of Sight, you still can't deal with re-rollable 2++s, and they're on incredibly fragile platforms. They're nice, but only about *as* nice as the Griffon was.


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## mahavira (Jan 10, 2010)

Has anyone actually used one yet (a bit early still, I know)? In terms of the troops slot/heavy slot issue, with Tank Commanders you can free up a heavy slot if you really want to.

An interesting comparison would be 2 Wyverns vs 1 LR Eradicator, which is another dedicated anti infantry tank.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

You shouldn't ever really be using Tank Commanders. They can only issue orders to their squadron, IIRC, and cost so damn much. They're only there for rule of cool, but anything attempting competitiveness shouldn't really be concerned with that.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Depends how many Russes you feel like fielding. An AV14 wall actually looks pretty feasible with the right supporting units.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Vaz said:


> You shouldn't ever really be using Tank Commanders. They can only issue orders to their squadron, IIRC, and cost so damn much. They're only there for rule of cool, but anything attempting competitiveness shouldn't really be concerned with that.


I think that Pask is extremely viable, and Tank Commanders in general are still quite good (at least at this early stage). AV14 is pretty good for your Warlord, he boosts his tank's effectiveness quite nicely (mainly the dakka ones rather than the blasty ones, but since they're all so much cheaper while the Battle Tank remained the same price I guess that's what your were gunning for anyway), and if you don't need the infantry orders that much (if you're running a super Blob Squad with Priest and Inquisitor, for example), you could do a lot worse than the Tank Commanders.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

Have used wyverns against bezerkers and cultists.

Suffice to say I will be using them a lot. The reroll on hit and wounds mean even power armour can't make that many saves.
As with everything in the guard though, its all about the support


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Tbh I overlooked the Wyverns at first...But yeah, looking at them again, they seem to fulfill the same role as my griffons used too, but arguably better (and cheaper), since they re-roll to hit like the griffon, yet also re-roll to wound and fire twice as much. Not AP4, but meh, they ignore cover and re-roll to wound so will probably kill more than a griffon anyway. 

Just need to work out how to convert a cheapish Wyvern turret and swap out my griffon mortars and colussus cannons (thankfully magnetised them! So no loss there) on my numerous chimera chasis. Job done. Would probably run them in 2's, no more. Probably best in lower points games where I can't squeeze in higher priced artillery or many Russ's. Definitely good against backfield cultists, horde armies, if you don't mind list tailoring.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Straken's_Fist said:


> Tbh I overlooked the Wyverns at first...But yeah, looking at them again, they seem to fulfill the same role as my griffons used too, but arguably better (and cheaper), since they re-roll to hit like the griffon, yet also re-roll to wound and fire twice as much. Not AP4, but meh, they ignore cover and re-roll to wound so will probably kill more than a griffon anyway.


The loss is that you can't snipe out models with them and the AP is worse, as well as the obvious prohibitor of Line of Sight, but the Wyvern's guns are probably superior in simple damage output.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> as well as the obvious prohibitor of Line of Sight


Ah yes. I think that is quite a major problem actually. I wont be able to just dump a squadron in cover and not have to worry about LOS, which may leave them exposed or waste turns not shooting at all if terrain is BLOB heavy. Will have to think about this as I think they are probably being overhyped.


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## mahavira (Jan 10, 2010)

Crazy question - why are you guys saying it can't shoot out of LoS? P34 of my basic rule book says all barrage weapons can fire indirectly. Is there an exception somewhere I'm missing?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

mahavira said:


> Crazy question - why are you guys saying it can't shoot out of LoS? P34 of my basic rule book says all barrage weapons can fire indirectly. Is there an exception somewhere I'm missing?


The Wyvern isn't Barrage.


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## mahavira (Jan 10, 2010)

On page 62 of the Codex, the armory description of Stormshard Mortar says it is barrage, as does the reference chart at the back of my book, as does page 22 of the White Dwarf which discusses the Wyvern. Are the English language books printed in NA printed at the same place as for Europe and Australia/NZ?


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

mahavira said:


> On page 62 of the Codex, the armory description of Stormshard Mortar says it is barrage, as does the reference chart at the back of my book, as does page 22 of the White Dwarf which discusses the Wyvern. Are the English language books printed in NA printed at the same place as for Europe and Australia/NZ?


Yup. British spellings any everything. And I just looked, the Stormshard Mortar is barrage in the physical book.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

I just checked my copy and yeah it says barrage....I like it again lol.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Like I said, it's extremely difficult to justify not getting 1-3 of these things. I've faced them on two different occasions now and they melt any backfield scoring unit and put so many wounds on other units with their re-roll everything you just kind of sit there scratching your head when you realize their point cost.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Ravner298 said:


> Like I said, it's extremely difficult to justify not getting 1-3 of these things. I've faced them on two different occasions now and they melt any backfield scoring unit and put so many wounds on other units with their re-roll everything you just kind of sit there scratching your head when you realize their point cost.


I just want something to replace my Griffons...So seems this fits the bill nicely. I always thought Griffons were underrated, but Wyverns seem better and cheaper. GW obviously want to shift the new models, hence they are so cheap.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Straken's_Fist said:


> I just want something to replace my Griffons...So seems this fits the bill nicely. I always thought Griffons were underrated, but Wyverns seem better and cheaper. GW obviously want to shift the new models, hence they are so cheap.


Then why isn't the Hydra better? It's the same kit.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Zion said:


> Then why isn't the Hydra better? It's the same kit.



Because it's the only non flier skyfire in the codex. And it's still damn effective for its points. Losing its jink ignore was pretty necessary to keep its points down, and the open top bit is largely irrelevent. They're still extremely strong AA, unless you're just going to rely on your 6-9 divination psychers and weight of dice to bring down air now instead.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Ravner298 said:


> Because it's the only non flier skyfire in the codex. And it's still damn effective for its points. Losing its jink ignore was pretty necessary to keep its points down, and the open top bit is largely irrelevent. They're still extremely strong AA, unless you're just going to rely on your 6-9 divination psychers and weight of dice to bring down air now instead.


Losing "Ignores Jink" didn't need to be removed keep the points down, at least not as long as it doesn't have Interceptor. 

I'm actually reading a number of Guard players who aren't sold on either model for a number of reasons, meaning neither of these kits really looks like a "hot seller".


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Zion said:


> Losing "Ignores Jink" didn't need to be removed keep the points down, at least not as long as it doesn't have Interceptor.
> 
> I'm actually reading a number of Guard players who aren't sold on either model for a number of reasons, meaning neither of these kits really looks like a "hot seller".



Well to each their own of course. You'll be hard pressed to find better AA per point than a hydra, and better anti infantry per point than a wyvern, but obviously there are other ways to accomplish what they bring to the table.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Zion said:


> Then why isn't the Hydra better? It's the same kit.


So what? Still gonna sell well on the Wyvern alone. GW are a business, they know what they are doing.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Straken's_Fist said:


> So what? Still gonna sell well on the Wyvern alone. GW are a business, they know what they are doing.


The point was they'd sell more if they buffed both version of the kit, not just one. And as said I've seen a LOT of people talking about how not impressed they are by BOTH options in the kit so it's debatable if it even will be a "hot seller".


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Ravner298 said:


> You'll be hard pressed to find better AA per point than a hydra


Vendettas and Sabres.



Ravner298 said:


> and better anti infantry per point than a wyvern


Maybe, but a Punisher comes pretty close and is stupidly more survivable.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> Vendettas and Sabres.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Agreed, and to take it to an 11.....Pask in the punisher. However a wyvern will still come out on top on units that rely on going to ground in cover (and possibly stealth/shrouded like plaguebearers).


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Ravner298 said:


> Agreed, and to take it to an 11.....Pask in the punisher. However a wyvern will still come out on top on units that rely on going to ground in cover (and possibly stealth/shrouded like plaguebearers).


Yeah, Wyverns will do a number on any Xenos behind an Aegis Line, but you can spread out to minimise the impact of a small blast; with full 2" coherency, Wyverns can get 4 hits maximum unless they scatter nicely - although to be fair, Orks and Daemons and Tyranids are almost never going to get to 2" coherency because they simply don't have that much space on the board.

I'd say the Wyvern is a very effective anti-infantry tool, but due to the fragility of the chassis and the two fairly simply defenses against the gun (hiding behind something and/or spread out), I wouldn't say it's overpowered.


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