# Traitor Primarchs are Gits



## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

As the HH series goes on, I'm struggling to not have complete disdain for primarchs acting like a bunch of whiny 12-year-olds who's daddy didn't coddle them enough. So far, the reasoning for Lorgar and Angron turning comes down to teenage tantrums over the Emperor not liking them best, or being hurt over his lying about there being a Santa Clause, or not getting them a pony for their birthday. From the early indicators, Mortarion and Pertuabo are shaping up in the same way.

So far, IMO the only reasonable justifications for turning are Horus for his delusions over his father fashioning himself into a deity and Magnus for being such a galactic-class screw-up. Alpharius/Omegon are close to the Horus justification, but they don't have the excuse of having to make their decision with the Sword of Damocles hanging over their head on death's door... hell, they take it on the word of the selfsame xenos they've experienced to be duplicitous lairs.

I do enjoy the writing of most of the BL authors, in the context of the Sci-fi genre and a few obviously have better styles than others. On the whole, I suppose they're doing the best with the pre-established fluff and having to somehow justify the conditions.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

For all their intellect and brillance with their rapid growth, the Primarchs were far from infallible and in some cases quite emotionally stunted. Plus many of them had obsessions that came to define them like Magnus and Lorgar, both positively trapped by their own mono-mania. Magnus had a collosal case of hubris going on, overconfident in his own abilities. And Lorgar, plagued by visions and the expectations of being a cult leader and manipulated nearly from the beginning by Kor Phaeron.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Thats obviously one way of looking at it.

But the main purpose of the traitors, besides for their disdain for the Emperor, was that they thought they could make the Imperium better than it was. Whether or not that was possible is debatable. As far as they knew, they knew nothing about the Imperial Webway except for perhaps Magnus. All they knew was that the Emperor's attention had slipped away from them and the Great Crusade. Chaos exploited those partial truths.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

The problem is that 9 Primarchs have to turn. Coming up with convincing reasons for them to do so, when both they and the Emperor are super human beings, of great intelligence, is difficult. 

It's hard to reconcile the Emperor who led Humanity out of the Age of Strife and Unified earth with the Emperor who failed spectacularly in dealing with his sons. Of course there is the possibility tat the Emperor purposefully treated them so, that he engineered or hoped for the Heresy. Perhaps his goal is apotheosis to godhood.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I always though the big E was stupid for not realizing how much Angron openly hated him, and resented his intervention. In fact in Angron's case it wasn't really a heresy as he never was loyal in the strict sense to begin with. I mean can you be loyal to a person that robbed you of your honor and pride?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Rems said:


> The problem is that 9 Primarchs have to turn. Coming up with convincing reasons for them to do so, when both they and the Emperor are super human beings, of great intelligence, is difficult.
> 
> It's hard to reconcile the Emperor who led Humanity out of the Age of Strife and Unified earth with the Emperor who failed spectacularly in dealing with his sons. Of course there is the possibility tat the Emperor purposefully treated them so, that he engineered or hoped for the Heresy. Perhaps his goal is apotheosis to godhood.


I'm not sure 9 was an aiming number for the Chaos Gods. For a story line and for fluff, sure. But it seems that Chaos tried to put their fingers through many of the loyal legions as well. 

The reason I would say that the Emperor did not appear to hot in the eyes of the traitor primarchs needs us to look into their perspective. Obviously there is warped mindedness going on. But for now, lets avoid that. 

So your leader has abandoned something that was the greatest thing going for humanity (The Great Crusade, and obviously we don't know about his other plans because he doesn't tell us anything). You see him giving orders from Terra which have always conflicted with your beliefs (most from the home worlds), but this time he's doing it from a Golden Throne and not contributing but instead taking all the glory. You have seen at least three of your brothers (Lorgar, Magnus, and Kurze) scorned for their beliefs and ways of life. 

Taking all this into account, thats pretty hard to ask someone to remain loyal if they do not appear to coexist peacefully with the Emperor's Imperium in the future. Most that stayed loyal benefited or coexisted well with the Imperium's beliefs.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> As the HH series goes on, I'm struggling to not have complete disdain for primarchs acting like a bunch of whiny 12-year-olds who's daddy didn't coddle them enough. So far, the reasoning for Lorgar and Angron turning comes down to teenage tantrums over the Emperor not liking them best, or being hurt over his lying about there being a Santa Clause, or not getting them a pony for their birthday. From the early indicators, Mortarion and Pertuabo are shaping up in the same way.


I don't understand this line of thought given _Betrayer_ and _The First Heretic_.



Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> So far, IMO the only reasonable justifications for turning are Horus for his delusions over his father fashioning himself into a deity and Magnus for being such a galactic-class screw-up. Alpharius/Omegon are close to the Horus justification, but they don't have the excuse of having to make their decision with the Sword of Damocles hanging over their head on death's door... hell, they take it on the word of the selfsame xenos they've experienced to be duplicitous lairs.


The opening page of the Book of Lorgar justifies Lorgar's betrayal: 


> "All I ever wanted was the truth..."


The Emperor forged the Imperium on a lie, Lorgar burned his own homeworld in the name of a lie, and the Emperor humiliated the XVII Legion amongst the ashes of it's greatest achievement. The culmination of the Pilgrimage gave Lorgar a new purpose; to learn from the mistakes of the Eldar and embrace Chaos. With the Emperor inherently opposed to that path, what followed was inevitable.

Angron, on the other hand, was denied the death he had fought for and earned, alongside his brothers and sisters. He never wanted anything to do with the Emperor or Imperium. The Butchers Nail's were killing him and the Emperor even sponsored those who had injected them into his brain. He drew nothing but contempt from the other Primarchs and wider Imperium, and never held any true sense of loyalty to the Imperium, or even to his own Legion.

Both Lorgar and Angron were entirely justified in their rebellion, given the circumstances of their lives.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. One lie leading to the next, until the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. I can understand the Emperor wanting to protect mankind from chaos, but in turn promoting that ignorance is bliss. And that naturally offended some of the more curious primarchs, whom then got led astray and got upset and uppity when they were given glimpses of the throne of lies.


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

I'm currently working through the HH books. I liked the way the Alpha Legion 'turned' if you can put it that way. The Emperor's Children made sense too. I'm not sure what to make of the Death Guard though, maybe there's another book in the series which will illuminate Mortarion's fall some more. Many years ago I seem to remember reading that the DG drifted through space while disease cut through their ranks, and finally capitulated to Nurgle- but Flight of the Eisenstein didn't seem to touch on that at all. Maybe I just read it too quickly or wasn't concentrating enough. There's no reason the fluff can't be retconned I suppose

I'm currently about a quarter of the way through the Word Bearers' book


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Squire said:


> I'm currently working through the HH books. I liked the way the Alpha Legion 'turned' if you can put it that way. The Emperor's Children made sense too. I'm not sure what to make of the Death Guard though, maybe there's another book in the series which will illuminate Mortarion's fall some more. Many years ago I seem to remember reading that the DG drifted through space while disease cut through their ranks, and finally capitulated to Nurgle- but Flight of the Eisenstein didn't seem to touch on that at all. Maybe I just read it too quickly or wasn't concentrating enough. There's no reason the fluff can't be retconned I suppose
> 
> I'm currently about a quarter of the way through the Word Bearers' book


The flight of the eisenstein was just the prelude to the fall of the death guard. The DG legion will fall as they leave Istvaan to head to terra, becomming becalmed in the warp thanks to typhus.


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

Brother Lucian said:


> The flight of the eisenstein was just the prelude to the fall of the death guard. The DG legion will fall as they leave Istvaan to head to terra, becomming becalmed in the warp thanks to typhus.


Ah, okay. I'll get there eventually.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Apparently the Death Guard fell to the plague that was making them suffer than anything they were all used to. Mortarion took the pain away from them by bartering the deal with Nurgle to spare them the agony.

There is speculation that Mortarion did not like that the Emperor took his honor by killing the tyrant of his home planet. That might have contributed to why Mortarion chose to stay with Horus before joining Nurgle.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> There is speculation that Mortarion did not like that the Emperor took his honor by killing the tyrant of his home planet. That might have contributed to why Mortarion chose to stay with Horus before joining Nurgle.


So says the IA article:


> In the charismatic Warmaster, Mortarion found a mentor who seemed to understand his goals and appreciate his methods. So close did Mortarion appear to be to Horus, in fact, it is believed that at least two of the other Primarchs, Roboute Guilliman of the Ultramarines and the ever watchful, ever taciturn Corax of the Raven Guard, approached the Emperor with concerns about where the master of the Death Guard's loyalties lay. The story of his allegiance to the Emperor won through his own failure was by then well-known, and anyone with even a passing familiarity with Mortarion knew that the pallid Primarch chafed at it. The Emperor is said to have dismissed their concerns with a wave; loyalty to Horus was de facto loyalty to the Emperor.


It does need expanding upon though within the series, a Death Guard novel wouldn't be a bad thing.



Squire said:


> I'm not sure what to make of the Death Guard though, maybe there's another book in the series which will illuminate Mortarion's fall some more. Many years ago I seem to remember reading that the DG drifted through space while disease cut through their ranks, and finally capitulated to Nurgle- but Flight of the Eisenstein didn't seem to touch on that at all. Maybe I just read it too quickly or wasn't concentrating enough. There's no reason the fluff can't be retconned I suppose


That will happen at some point. That's how they fell to Nurgle though, rather than how/why they joined Horus. Also, try not to think of _Flight_ as a Death Guard novel, it was more of a Garro novel.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Heresy: Betrayal informs us that Mortarion felt The Emperor was becoming another Tyrant like the creatures on his homeworld. He believed Horus would make a better ruler. It makes his fall all the more tragic really, he was rebelling for what he thought were good and noble reasons, to make the Imperium better.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

What makes a Death Guard novel tricky is what makes any Traitor-centric novel tricky at this point. You have to be able to make the protagonists equal parts attractive to the reader and believable in their role in the Heresy. It's not impossible by any means; Aaron Dembski-Bowden has done a damn good job of it with the Word Bearers and the World Eaters, and Graham McNeil also did very well with Perturabo (though perhaps not as much with his rank-and-file Iron Warriors, but that may not have mattered since their Primarch was the "leading man").

As the Heresy advances, though, and the Traitor Legions increasingly sink under the control of Chaos... it's going to be tough to achieve this. It's why I think AD-B was so clever in ... 

... killing off Argel Tal when he did; ...
 ... it would have been very difficult to keep that character true to his (increasingly bruised) ideals.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

The op illustrates a point which I find to be true of most all Space Marines. They exemplify an immature, macho, boyish need to be the biggest and the strongest. It portrays an insecurity in the artist or author for them to have the comfort of a huge, powerful, manly figure which is incapable of defeat. 

Not coincidentally, when they do taste defeat, the result is no where more apparent than in the despairingly childish actions of Horus and his other traitor Primarchs, rebelling against their father who didn't give them enough love.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

I wonder if the emperor engineered the primarchs to be emotionally needy, originally intending to be "daddy" to them all! This would help guarantee their loyalty but then chaos ruined his plan by scattering them and the boys grew up with a gaping emotional need that daddy was not their to heal. The primarchs all have aspects of the big Es personality including his megolomania and ego and these have to handled delicately, the big E had Malcador who was quite possibly the real brains behind the big Es plans.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Also take into account that the Space Marines feel emotion more powerfully than humans. I forget the novel, maybe it was Battle of the Fang or something but one of the humans pointed out that the Space Marines lost those teenage years which tend to mold and shape us into the adults we will become.

They go from children into super-human adults and therefore it almost seems natural to me that they would retain a child-like mentality in some things. As for the Primarchs, they did grow but their intellect, hubris, arrogance, or any other personality flaw was not tempered by the Emperor. Each of them has a massive ego -- which I also consider natural since they grew up around mere mortals. Many of them took control of worlds and systems. Many of them were kings, warlords, and overlords before the coming of the Emperor. 

So Oldman78 may be very right in his theory. The emotional neediness of the Primarchs was meant to be filled by the Emperor forging unbreakable bonds between father and sons. This was shattered by the gods and they grew up with nothing to temper them. Good theory Oldman78.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

BlackGuard said:


> They go from children into super-human adults and therefore it almost seems natural to me that they would retain a child-like mentality in some things.


With respect, I disagree.

Central to the process of creating a Space Marine is extensive indoctrination, hypno-therapy, etc. I will gladly accept that Space Marine mentality can be characterized as either superhuman or "inhuman" in the sense that they are able to deal with stressors, fear, pain, etc., in a way that normal people can't. But a "child-like mentality" is defined in most cases by inexperience and curiosity. That's not what the Adeptus Astartes are like.



> As for the Primarchs, they did grow but their intellect, hubris, arrogance, or any other personality flaw was not tempered by the Emperor. Each of them has a massive ego -- which I also consider natural since they grew up around mere mortals. Many of them took control of worlds and systems. Many of them were kings, warlords, and overlords before the coming of the Emperor.
> 
> So Oldman78 may be very right in his theory. The emotional neediness of the Primarchs was meant to be filled by the Emperor forging unbreakable bonds between father and sons. This was shattered by the gods and they grew up with nothing to temper them. Good theory Oldman78.


Most of the traitor primarchs were provided adequate alibies and excuses for why they rebelled and/or turned to Chaos.

For instance, Fulgrim was arrogant, to be sure, but what drove his choice was prolonged exposure to an artifact of Chaos.

Perturabo was at one point suspected of being corrupted by a weapon Horus gave to him as a gift - a weapon that Horus knew was corrupted by Chaos. Via "Angel Exterminatus", though, we see that Perturabo might have been corrupted from day one. He can see the Eye of Terror even when others can't.

Curze's choice came down to his insanity, which drove him to all sorts of reprehensible actions that not even the Imperium could accept and that even his closest lieutenant rejected.

Angron was similarly broken due to his Butcher's Nails. His decision-making cannot be descibed as that of a rational being.

Magnus suffered from hubris, pure and simple. This led him into a situation that was in turn manipulated by Horus so as to have a far worse ending than originally mandated by the Emperor.

Horus was poisoned and then tempted in the middle of a chaotic trance. The entire affair was masterminded by Lorgar, Erebus, and Kor Phaeron. Possibly the only weak point in his fall was his preceding emotional pain resulting from the Emperor going back to Terra. It is simply laughable that a genius of Horus' level would not be able to recognize the need for the chief executive of any enterprise to be closer to center of power than to be at the fringe of an expanding frontier. Especially when the frontier was expanding in every direction, which would mean that the Emperor could not have been with all the Primarchs simultaneously regardless.

Lorgar was subtly manipulated from day one as well, by foster fathers who were already committed to Chaos. His weaknesses and status as an outsider (due to dogma that was provided by his adopted father figures) were used as the means by which to turn him.

Alpharius and/or Omegon never seem to have truly turned in the sense that Chaos intended for them.

So really, the only Primarch who we don't have a firm reason for turning yet is Mortarion. And honestly, if it turns out that he rebelled because he felt the Emperor undermined him by taking out an enemy he couldn't slay himself, then that's just petty. As petty as Horus not being able to handle his "daddy" going back to Terra to run the freaking Imperium they had been trying to win for him for the previous two centuries.

As such, I disagree that the fall of the Primarchs had to do with out-and-out "emotional weakness" that necessitated paternal guidance for everything to work well. I will agree that this theme is used at least partly for Horus, but, again, I think that this was a terrible mistake and lazy writing. It achieved nothing other than implying just a superhuman being was bizarrely mundane. It makes the rest of Horus' genius (often expressed through the demonstrations of mental power and resolve of other Primarchs, such as Guilliman) seem improbable by contrast.

Respectfully,
P.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Though I agree with my dear Phoebus on the point in which he disagrees with the idea that the Primarchs were weak in mind, I don't agree with your view of the primarchs being tainted from day one.

The taint doesn't simply touch an individual and therefore turns him into chaos. In _Angel Exterminatus_, it is shown that the reason why Perturabo joined Horus was due to the fact that he would never be excepted in the Imperium without being the "Emperor's hammer." His actions to his home planet closed any possibility of Perturabo ever being viewed as anything more than a tool by the Emperor. By joining Horus, he sought the recognition and forgiveness that his brothers and father never gave and would never would give him.

The fact that he was able to see the Eye of Terra since his birth is simply one of his many unique talents of being a primarch. I don't think there's much evidence in _Angel Exterminatus_ to speculate that the Chaos Gods were whispering in his ear in the small degree that perhaps Lorgar was or even the greater extent to what Magnus was shown to have. Quite the contrary, Perturabo was depicted as utterly and almost fanatically loyal to the Emperor until his actions of Olympia.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I didn't say all of the Primarchs were tainted from day one. Far from it. Honestly, I'm not sure how you got that from my post.

Where Perturabo is concerned, though, I can't help but think there was something very odd about the fact that he could *always* see the Eye of Terror. That's *never* been described before.


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## Brothersin (Jan 24, 2013)

I also think there was a feeling of "what next?" from a lot of the Primarchs as the Emperor returns to Terra, the Great Crusade enters its final phase, and control of the Imperium is handed to "mere" humans.

It was easy for the Primarchs to take orders and inspiration from the Emperor and not easy at all to be ordered around by paper-pushers from Terra. On top of all that, the Emperor has not only withdrawn direct control over the Legions, but it also seems like he's stopped communicating with most of the Primarchs entirely. The Emperor is so caught up in the webway project, something not a single Primarch seems to know a thing about, that he's just asking for things to start falling apart.

The Emperor returning to Terra and then going completely silent is the one thing I'm having trouble wrapping my head around. It's the one piece that doesn't seem to make sense, unless (like was mentioned in a previous post) the Emperor wanted the Heresy to happen. 

I will admit though that I'm beginning to think something is going on with Malcador. He's at the center of everything: webway project, human control of the Imperium, Nikea and the ban on psykers, and a host of other important moments. If he's a traitor, it becomes much easier to see how things begin to unravel.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Brothersin said:


> The Emperor is so caught up in the webway project, something not a single Primarch seems to know a thing about, that he's just asking for things to start falling apart.


I find the Primarch's resentments odd. What sort of idiot thinks (1) that the boss's interests must only be military, and (2) the boss shouldn't have secret stuff he's working on? They should be entirely familiar with the role of kings and emperors, as well as the notion of compartmentalization.

I also find it bizarre that "he wants to become a god" was a persuasive argument for becoming a traitor. The Empire's official credo is atheism. The Emperor's words and acts seem completely consistent with that. Any suggestion that "he wants to become a god" should have been met with derisive laughter, not serious consideration.


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## Daemon Child (Apr 12, 2011)

Why cant the primarchs be gits they have so much power it would be a waste if they went around handing out lollypops and stickers


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## Daemon Child (Apr 12, 2011)

Why cant the primachs be gits it would be a waste if they went around handing lollypops and stickers


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## Brothersin (Jan 24, 2013)

randian said:


> I find the Primarch's resentments odd. What sort of idiot thinks (1) that the boss's interests must only be military, and (2) the boss shouldn't have secret stuff he's working on? They should be entirely familiar with the role of kings and emperors, as well as the notion of compartmentalization.


Yes, but the Primarchs aren't just generals. They're Princes of the Universe, many of whom spent years with the Emperor and were members of the highest echelons of power and influence. 

And then... nothing. The Emp hands control of the military to Horus, thanks everyone for their great work, and then goes silent. When anyone tries to contact him they're either met with silence, a "He's busy but will call back later", or given orders from normal humans, which the super-egotistical Primarchs would have a hard time accepting quietly. 

Frankly, if the CEO of my company suddenly handed control of R&D to his #2, but put his secretary in charge of the entire company, and then never spoke to anyone again, I'm pretty sure folks would get to wondering if he's right in the head.



randian said:


> I also find it bizarre that "he wants to become a god" was a persuasive argument for becoming a traitor. The Empire's official credo is atheism. The Emperor's words and acts seem completely consistent with that. Any suggestion that "he wants to become a god" should have been met with derisive laughter, not serious consideration.


I'm with you. Although this is one area where "Chaos did it!" makes some sense. Although why anyone other than Horus, who had been poisoned and manipulated for awhile, would fall for it is beyond me.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Brothersin said:


> And then... nothing. The Emp hands control of the military to Horus, thanks everyone for their great work, and then goes silent. When anyone tries to contact him they're either met with silence, a "He's busy but will call back later", or given orders from normal humans, which the super-egotistical Primarchs would have a hard time accepting quietly.


The Emperor is basically saying "you've had a century or two to figure out how to prosecute the Great Crusade. You don't need me anymore, you're a bunch of super-geniuses. Now, take care of it, I'm busy with Very Important Things". Most would be flattered by the grant of independent authority and implicit declaration of trust. Instead, the Primarchs are angered by it.

They demonstrate they don't trust the Emperor, because they think he can't have sufficient reason to keep what he's doing a secret, including the stunningly obvious "it's a distraction to your day job of prosecuting the Great Crusade". Where's the Primarch who's asking "What could be so jaw-droppingly brilliant, even by the Emperor's lofty standards, that demands such high security?"

As for the "orders from humans" bit, again I find it unpersuasive. If a Private walked up to a General and says "Sir, here are your orders" the General does not take that to mean the Private is trying to order him about. He takes it to mean that his superior (President, Emperor, what have you) is giving him orders, the Private is merely a messenger. Why would the Primarchs take the 30k predecessor to the High Lords to have truly independent authority?


Brothersin said:


> Frankly, if the CEO of my company suddenly handed control of R&D to his #2, but put his secretary in charge of the entire company, and then never spoke to anyone again, I'm pretty sure folks would get to wondering if he's right in the head.


Malcador is hardly a secretary. I'm quite sure the Emperor was speaking to lots of people, he didn't build the Golden Throne and the webway machinery by himself. It's very like he wasn't the sole designer either.


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

Of course the traitor primarchs aren't likable. They're heavily flawed, which is why they were duped by the lies of Chaos and turned traitor.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Brothersin said:


> I will admit though that I'm beginning to think something is going on with Malcador. He's at the center of everything: webway project, human control of the Imperium, Nikea and the ban on psykers, and a host of other important moments. If he's a traitor, it becomes much easier to see how things begin to unravel.


If Malcador is a traitor, which I've seen nothing to indicate he is, then the jokes on him in the end.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> If Malcador is a traitor, which I've seen nothing to indicate he is, then the jokes on him in the end.


Considering Malcador willingly goes to his death at the Emperor's command, he is loyal. Aka taking the spot on the Golden Throne while the Emperor goes to fight Horus.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Not to mention giving the very last bit of strength he had left to the Emperor so he could give his final commands to Dorn. And of course he tried to assassinate Horus quite a few times.


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## Sangriento (Dec 1, 2010)

I find Night Haunter (and by extension the NL) the only legion that was given a compelling and attractive reasoning as to why turn traitor. the rest I agree, they are either kids with daddy issues or too easily fooled by Chaos, its just hard to feel any empathy towards them.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Sangriento said:


> I find Night Haunter (and by extension the NL) the only legion that was given a compelling and attractive reasoning as to why turn traitor. the rest I agree, they are either kids with daddy issues or too easily fooled by Chaos, its just hard to feel any empathy towards them.


I find that strange. I don't really see any of the Primarch's falls as irregular to be honest, they were all justified.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

unless its been retconned, wasn't Typhus part of the ruling elites bloodline that Mortarion fought to over throw? seem that he, like Kor Phaeron sought to manipulate things to his own ends and he had already thrown his lot in with the gods before the DG turned. Maybe Mortarion had no choice, it was either watch his legion die or take the hand that offered his sons salvation....don't think he realised the price of such a bargain until it was a little too late


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I believe Mortarion ultimately resented the Emperor for saving him as he ascended the toxic mountain and for slaying his adopted father who he either wanted to kill for himself or just humble. 

But I agree that the fluff for his betrayal, if one could even call it that, is problematic. He was in a lose/lose situation that I believe lasted for several months and only when his resilience ran out and half his legion dying did he accept Nurgle's offer. With the other Primarchs, they weren't forced into a corner before joining Chaos.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

With Mortarion, I feel we'll all see better when we have a book detailing their fall to Papa Nurgle. 

I didn't like or understand the Emperor's Childrens fall in the vague descriptions I once read "Fulgrim was tricked by a daemon and possessed". I'm sure better fluff existed but prior to reading Fulgrim, that was my understanding of it. Once I read the book I felt bad for Fulgrim.

My hope is that we shall see more indepth into GW's Grim Reaper soon.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gothik said:


> unless its been retconned, wasn't Typhus part of the ruling elites bloodline that Mortarion fought to over throw?


As far as I am aware that was never the case. It was always implied that the Tyrants of Barbarus were aliens, with _Horus Heresy: Betrayal_ essentially confirming that.



gothik said:


> seem that he, like Kor Phaeron sought to manipulate things to his own ends and he had already thrown his lot in with the gods before the DG turned. Maybe Mortarion had no choice, it was either watch his legion die or take the hand that offered his sons salvation....don't think he realised the price of such a bargain until it was a little too late


Take into account that the Death Guard's fall to Nurgle was entirely separate to their switching allegiance to Horus. But yes, Typhon played a significant role in the events leading up to Mortarion's fall to Nurgle.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Oh wtf. Another company releases WH40k books too? Did it go into detail as to who the aliens were? Were they Dark Eldar?

Ah that's right. Mort. decided to join Horus prior to the transformation. Now it makes sense.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

gothik said:


> Maybe Mortarion had no choice, it was either watch his legion die or take the hand that offered his sons salvation....don't think he realised the price of such a bargain until it was a little too late


For a super-genius Mortarion's failure to recognize that he wasn't being offered salvation is rather odd. He essentially ended up being the Tyrant (who suspiciously resembled a Nurgle follower himself) he so hated on his home planet.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

randian said:


> For a super-genius Mortarion's failure to recognize that he wasn't being offered salvation is rather odd. He essentially ended up being the Tyrant (who suspiciously resembled a Nurgle follower himself) he so hated on his home planet.


Blinded by grief/pain/etc.....? :dunno:


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

BlackGuard said:


> I didn't like or understand the Emperor's Childrens fall in the vague descriptions I once read "Fulgrim was tricked by a daemon and possessed".





Fulgrim decided the daemon was so awesome he wanted to be just like it. Said daemon was surely eager to oblige with the necessary steps, and no doubt engineered his own dispossession on Slannesh's order.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Oh wtf. Another company releases WH40k books too? Did it go into detail as to who the aliens were? Were they Dark Eldar?


It's a Forgeworld publication that aside from rules for Heresy-era armies and Primarchs, also carries a lot of lore. It's actually been incredibly useful for clarifying a lot of issues.

And no, there is no real suggestion that the Tyrants of Barbarus were Eldar. (Without having the book infront of me) they were just a race of powerful necrotic aliens with likely links to the psychic arts/daemons.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> It's a Forgeworld publication that aside from rules for Heresy-era armies and Primarchs, also carries a lot of lore. It's actually been incredibly useful for clarifying a lot of issues.
> 
> And no, there is no real suggestion that the Tyrants of Barbarus were Eldar. (Without having the book infront of me) they were just a race of powerful necrotic aliens with likely links to the psychic arts/daemons.


i swear you do not need a book sometimes i think you have a link to the Black Library itself


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## Leonardo (Apr 7, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I don't understand this line of thought given _Betrayer_ and _The First Heretic_.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with this. The Emporer had in my opinion brought the Heresy on himself by acting like a colossal a**. 
He would have been better off offering his 'sons' the truth about gods and demons, I mean if the Primarchs were so perfect in his eyes why would he assume they couldn't handle it or that it would be best not to tell them the truth so they could be armed against their seduction. Surely he knew these malevolent gods would attempt to corrupt the Primarchs, especially since they were mysteriously scattered across the universe by a force that could have been nothing else but Chaos.
I think the Emporer's arrogance cost the imperium. :suicide:


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

unless on some level he had foreseen the heresy and let it play out, sort of find out who would remain loyal to his ideals and who wouldn't. Whatever the reason, by not telling his sons the true nature of what lived in the warp and the eye, he left the door wide open for Lorgar and the other "Traitors" to see what a big cover up he had done.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Leonardo said:


> He would have been better off offering his 'sons' the truth about gods and demons





gothik said:


> Whatever the reason, by not telling his sons the true nature of what lived in the warp and the eye, he left the door wide open for Lorgar and the other "Traitors" to see what a big cover up he had done.


I'm firmly of the belief that if you stop a minute and consider the alternative (informing the Primarchs/Imperium of Chaos) then you can see why he made the decision that he did. Just as the traitorous Primarchs were justified in their act of rebellion given the circumstances, so too was the Emperor justified in his decisions.

The Heresy cannot be blamed on either the Emperor or the Primarchs, it was the result of the Chaos Gods. And as part a trend, had occured many times over throughout different civilisations, all as a result of Chaos.


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