# An Open (Video) Letter to Games Workshop



## Usaal (Apr 9, 2008)

Just spreading the word from "Miniwargaming", was a good watch for me.


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## brother william (Jan 22, 2009)

Very good video, its nice to see someone approaching GW on a logical footing


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

This video was amazing. All hate-mongering aside, I sincerely hope management gets wind of this.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

A lot more people have been addressing GW directly than I thought they would after their recent decisions. With GW expanding on the internet like a facebook and youtube channel and just more internet in general they have actually been hearing some of their fans. Who knows if they'll listen. Hopefully they get to see this video as well, they seem to keep their eyes on business that MWG so I guess chances are good.


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

i'd spread this around, but everyone has beaten me to it 

nice to see someone talking about gw in a mature, objective manner.


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## Hurricane (Feb 27, 2010)

I really like this video a lot. Calm, level-headed, and has more credibility versus internet ranting.


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## Angelus Censura (Oct 11, 2010)

Good video, but he is adressing issues that GW has most definitely thought about and considered a sort of collateral damage in the process of increasing revenue. So they lose loyalty, they piss people off, get a lot of complaints and talk shit on one of their biggest clients - they will still be making sales just as much as ever and those who decide to boycott GW will in the end go crawling back for more plastic/resin crack. I've left the hobby 4 times in the past 10 years I've been playing. I've tried to switch over to Warmachine or Malifaux, but in the end I go back to Fantasy and 40k, because aside from the shitty business ethics and extreme prices, I believe they are the best out there, and I find their games, options for conversions and product to be the most enjoyable.

He has many points, but I really don't see this changing the hearts of the GW high ups. GW is a business, businesses are out there to make money. Not to mention covering costs for overhead, staff, sculpters, etc. It costs a lot. Don't get me wrong, I agree completely, but I just don't see GW changing tactics any time soon.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Hurricane said:


> I really like this video a lot. Calm, level-headed, and has more credibility versus internet ranting.


Yet the chances of GW giving a shit?

0.0001% at best.:angry:


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

It's not about not giving a shit, it's about GW having to face up to a tough economic environment and making choices that will see the company stay a going concern over the long-term. I would much rather pay more and GW be around for a long time, rather than have a price-cut and see the company fail; those who would like to see GW fail never seem to think about the tens of thousands of people _just like you and me_ who would likely lose their home, and face other financial hardship, as their job evaporates, all because the these people are invisible to the consumer.
Even the prices over here in Oz being so much higher is undrstandable. GW need to be able to predict their cashflow. Yes, the Aussie Dollar is at an all-time high, but it's traditionally a lot lower; should it stabilise at this level for a couple of years, we may see a price readjustment, but what would happen if the currency suddenly collapsed back to its former level after GW has factored the cash into its operations? Again, the faceless employees get shafted. And that's not taking into account what the price of oil is doing to transport costs, which makes all imports to these fair shores more expensive than a direct market-to-market price comparison show.
The current price hike is taking place, with absolutely no coincidence, at the end of the Financial Year. GW's bank loans and debt payments are all going to go up at the start of the new Financial Year and this needs to be factored in. Plus you have all of the employees getting a pay rise, just like everyone else is getting. If you have a bad boss, then your pay rise is less than the rate of inflation and you, to all intents and purposes, are getting a pay _cut_ and everything is more expensive (the end of Financial Year affects every business), plus the new gap as your salary loses pace; if, however, you have a good boss, your pay tracks inflation and, though all of the prices may be higher, you pay the same _proportion_ of your money for goods and services.
Unfortunately, the real world fails to give a shit about what we think is fair. If we want GW to continue to make brilliant models, Army Books/Codexes that are filled with fluff and cool pictures, fantastic terrain, give us a place where we can always play WHFB/40K/LoTR- then we pay a commensurate price for this. If and when a drop in price becomes a financial possibility, that's when we can make a real argument for it. In the middle of a financial crisis that is still giving Europe and the US a kicking?  Not a chance.

GFP


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> It's not about not giving a shit, it's about GW having to face up to a tough economic environment and making choices that will see the company stay a going concern over the long-term. I would much rather pay more and GW be around for a long time, rather than have a price-cut and see the company fail; those who would like to see GW fail never seem to think about the tens of thousands of people _just like you and me_ who would likely lose their home, and face other financial hardship, as their job evaporates, all because the these people are invisible to the consumer.
> Even the prices over here in Oz being so much higher is undrstandable. GW need to be able to predict their cashflow. Yes, the Aussie Dollar is at an all-time high, but it's traditionally a lot lower; should it stabilise at this level for a couple of years, we may see a price readjustment, but what would happen if the currency suddenly collapsed back to its former level after GW has factored the cash into its operations? Again, the faceless employees get shafted. And that's not taking into account what the price of oil is doing to transport costs, which makes all imports to these fair shores more expensive than a direct market-to-market price comparison show.
> The current price hike is taking place, with absolutely no coincidence, at the end of the Financial Year. GW's bank loans and debt payments are all going to go up at the start of the new Financial Year and this needs to be factored in. Plus you have all of the employees getting a pay rise, just like everyone else is getting. If you have a bad boss, then your pay rise is less than the rate of inflation and you, to all intents and purposes, are getting a pay _cut_ and everything is more expensive (the end of Financial Year affects every business), plus the new gap as your salary loses pace; if, however, you have a good boss, your pay tracks inflation and, though all of the prices may be higher, you pay the same _proportion_ of your money for goods and services.
> Unfortunately, the real world fails to give a shit about what we think is fair. If we want GW to continue to make brilliant models, Army Books/Codexes that are filled with fluff and cool pictures, fantastic terrain, give us a place where we can always play WHFB/40K/LoTR- then we pay a commensurate price for this. If and when a drop in price becomes a financial possibility, that's when we can make a real argument for it. In the middle of a financial crisis that is still giving Europe and the US a kicking? Not a chance.
> ...


this is all well and good. i agree with you for the most part, but this is all about more than money, its about how gw treats people as well, be them retailers(brick and mortar or otherwise)or customers. 

i'd say more but i have to go to work, earn more moeny for that plasti-crack


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> It's not about not giving a shit, it's about GW having to face up to a tough economic environment and making choices that will see the company stay a going concern over the long-term. I would much rather pay more and GW be around for a long time, rather than have a price-cut and see the company fail; those who would like to see GW fail never seem to think about the tens of thousands of people _just like you and me_ who would likely lose their home, and face other financial hardship, as their job evaporates, all because the these people are invisible to the consumer.
> Even the prices over here in Oz being so much higher is undrstandable. GW need to be able to predict their cashflow. Yes, the Aussie Dollar is at an all-time high, but it's traditionally a lot lower; should it stabilise at this level for a couple of years, we may see a price readjustment, but what would happen if the currency suddenly collapsed back to its former level after GW has factored the cash into its operations? Again, the faceless employees get shafted. And that's not taking into account what the price of oil is doing to transport costs, which makes all imports to these fair shores more expensive than a direct market-to-market price comparison show.
> The current price hike is taking place, with absolutely no coincidence, at the end of the Financial Year. GW's bank loans and debt payments are all going to go up at the start of the new Financial Year and this needs to be factored in. Plus you have all of the employees getting a pay rise, just like everyone else is getting. If you have a bad boss, then your pay rise is less than the rate of inflation and you, to all intents and purposes, are getting a pay _cut_ and everything is more expensive (the end of Financial Year affects every business), plus the new gap as your salary loses pace; if, however, you have a good boss, your pay tracks inflation and, though all of the prices may be higher, you pay the same _proportion_ of your money for goods and services.
> Unfortunately, the real world fails to give a shit about what we think is fair. If we want GW to continue to make brilliant models, Army Books/Codexes that are filled with fluff and cool pictures, fantastic terrain, give us a place where we can always play WHFB/40K/LoTR- then we pay a commensurate price for this. If and when a drop in price becomes a financial possibility, that's when we can make a real argument for it. In the middle of a financial crisis that is still giving Europe and the US a kicking? Not a chance.
> ...


Well said!

I also don't understand where this guy is coming from with GW should sell in US Dollars. Basically he is saying GW should trade in two currencies and then take the conversion hit when converting to GB Pounds. I bet all the countries and businesses that trade with N.America wish they would trade in their relevant currency but the fact is they don't. Why? Because they are not stupid so why should GW.

On his point with three hits of bad news. I agree but the facts are the facts and in truth I prefer bad news all at once rather than drip fed.

On his point regarding online trade. What he fails to address is GW is providing to local markets on a global basis. If online traders unbalance this global market it has an impact on how lucrative that market is and why should GW enter new markets/countries if online traders are going to undermine this.

Lastly while GW make the best minis with the best fluff and support material. People will buy and all others will be a poor mans choice until that point. Why buy a Ford or a Daewoo if you can afford a BMW or a Lexus. Ultimately GW are in the hobby for the long term. Hard business decisions have to be made at times which can be difficult at the retail F2F end. As the man said. I would prefer GW to be around for a long long time rather than go bust due to lack of backbone when it mattered.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Unfortunately, the real world fails to give a shit about what we think is fair.


This is probably one of the hardest lessons to learn: you have the right to complain but you do not have the right to win.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

21 minutes long , can anyone break it down into bullet points as i imagine he must waffle alot


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## tu_shan82 (Mar 7, 2008)

I all can say is that I sincerely hope GW takes some notice of what he says and not simply dismiss it the way they do with most of the correspondence that they receive.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

tu_shan82 said:


> I all can say is that I sincerely hope GW takes some notice of what he says and not simply dismiss it the way they do with most of the correspondence that they receive.


well i think if he had sent what ever he has said to GW rather than whacking it all over the net they might have, but as hes a reseller of GW products im not sure hes made a good move....time will tell


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## Synack (Apr 8, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> 21 minutes long , can anyone break it down into bullet points as i imagine he must waffle alot


He actually doesn't. It's well worth the watch.


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## Synack (Apr 8, 2008)

Chimaera said:


> Lastly while GW make the best minis with the best fluff and support material. People will buy and all others will be a poor mans choice until that point. Why buy a Ford or a Daewoo if you can afford a BMW or a Lexus. Ultimately GW are in the hobby for the long term.


This is a bad comparison. You don't drive a BMW or Lexus cause everyone else drives one, you drive it cause it's a nice car. 

The main reason everyone is playing GW games, is because everyone else does. As Matt put in the video, that is changing. The reason for it is very simply. Other companies, like PP are putting out just as good a quality game and miniatures as GW, for less. 

People are starting to switch. Where I live in Cape Town, Warmahordes is growing in popularity, quickly. It's WAY cheaper to play in terms of cost than anything GW has to offer here. The number of players is increasing more each month too and they aren't new players, they're players that are switching systems. Most aren't selling their GW models, but they aren't exactly spending more on GW models. In Joburg (one of South Africa's other main cities), there are probably equal to, if not more warmahordes tournies running than GW ones.

GW make a great product. No one is taking that away from them, but at the rate they are going, they are taking it away from me (the consumer), by making it too expensive to start up new armies.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> 21 minutes long , can anyone break it down into bullet points as i imagine he must waffle alot


-	Kicks off about GW calling online retailers ‘free-loaders’. States that most of these retailers have ‘bricks and mortar’ stores and are not 0 overhead and -35% rrp sellers. Says sellers should be able to sell internationally.

-	Kicks off about GW not allowing use of stock images by independent retailers and how this ban reduces sales.

- Currency exchange complaint. Says that prices in local geographic zones are so high that local retailers pay more wholesale than individuals do (did) even after paying shipping etc from EU. Answer: Allow Canadian retailers to buy in USD + shipping from USA + shipping fee. Allow AU retailers to buy in UK pounds (presumably from UK with shipping fee)

-	Costs of starter kits are too high and the competition from other game companies (Warmachine was mentioned) is there. 


The other comments made are largely irrelevant.


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## DamnatioEtExcidium (Mar 7, 2011)

I would love for gw to take some notice of this but they wont they will just bury their heads in the substantial profits and let things just keep going the way the are!! I was a massive fan of the 40k universe but since the price hikes and the resin scandal 
I refuse to buy from them which for me is not a problem as there are many great companies making cheaper and better alternative models and bits! A simple search online and you will find loads of them. 

So if you are not happy with gw vote with your feet don't buy there stuff get it elsewhere or even try differing systems battletech/ heavy gear is an awesome system which puts 40k to shame as does force on force which is very current and won't cost you an arm and a leg to play (£40 will get you a substantial force!)

The only way gw is going to listen is if their pockets are hit hard! 

Trust me people gw is not the bright centre of the wargaming universe anymore!!


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

DamnatioEtExcidium said:


> Trust me people gw is not the bright centre of the wargaming universe anymore!!


Im not sure how you can claim that - other companies might be on the rise, but I would be genuinely shocked if GWs turn over isnt greater than all the others combined still.



Synack said:


> He actually doesn't. It's well worth the watch.


ITs 21 minutes long, ive seen other videos hes done - there will be a HELL of a lot of waffle.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Maidel said:


> Im not sure how you can claim that - other companies might be on the rise, but I would be genuinely shocked if GWs turn over isnt greater than all the others combined still.


QFT.

GW is the most common, most complete and most played Miniature wargame. It will be for at least the next ten years, no questions asked. Possible the next 25 years if they don't make major blunders (and I mean more than the prices hikes and such).

The menace for GW, outside of the UK, comes from people leaving miniature wargaming altogether. At 500$ (before taxes, 575$ after taxes) for a basic army (2 boxes of GK termies (and using one for the HQ), 4 boxes of GKs, 2 rhinos, a Stormraven and a Dreadknight), it's enormous. Add 5 paint pots (a bare minimum), a single brush, some glue, and the codex (40$!!!), the rulebook and templates and you're at a wooping 650$ (747$ w/ taxes).

Right now, for 200$, I can buy an XBox 360. I can get 2-3 games for 150$. Just plug it in _et voilà_!

Here, in Canada, you actually have to seek GW players. On another forum (didicated to the local LARPers, an ideal GW target audience), there was a thread this week: "Seeking WFB players". After 140 views... only 4 answers and the fourth one is "cool, I'm actually seklling my stuff if anyone's interested".

The hobby's roots are extremely weak here, and GW's not helping at all... So while I'm not optimistic, I hope that someone as GW, one day, maybe, takes notice...

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> The menace for GW, outside of the UK, comes from people leaving miniature wargaming altogether. At 500$ (before taxes, 575$ after taxes) for a basic army (2 boxes of GK termies (and using one for the HQ), 4 boxes of GKs, 2 rhinos, a Stormraven and a Dreadknight), it's enormous. Add 5 paint pots (a bare minimum), a single brush, some glue, and the codex (40$!!!), the rulebook and templates and you're at a wooping 650$ (747$ w/ taxes).
> 
> Here, in Canada, you actually have to seek GW players. On another forum (didicated to the local LARPers, an ideal GW target audience), there was a thread this week: "Seeking WFB players". After 140 views... only 4 answers and the fourth one is "cool, I'm actually seklling my stuff if anyone's interested".


Yea, as said many times thats nothing like in the UK. Open a box of tactical marines and throw them into the road and nerds will be flattened by buses trying to retrieve them. :laugh:

Then again, theres nothing in the UK thats actually very far away from anything else.

Hell, I complain when I have to drive for 4 hours to get to cornwall, or my worst ever journey to Manchester that took 7 hours. Just driving between two cities in neighbouring states in canada is a 7 hour journey (Winnipeg to Regina) and thats not even a 1/4 of the countries width!


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Yep :biggrin:

To get to NA Games Day would be a 15-16 hours drive. Enough, I think, to cross the whole UK from north to south 

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> Yep :biggrin:
> 
> To get to NA Games Day would be a 15-16 hours drive. Enough, I think, to cross the whole UK from north to south
> 
> Phil


15 hours is tip to tip cornwall to scotland.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I like the Video and like how it starts to end on the note that GW are great and dandy now, but are going to lose chunks of they have now to rising Companies. (Quick prayer that PP kills GW monoply in near futur)

Seriously I have trouble now and days finding 40K games. I also think its funny that no one mention yet there is another competetor thats stealing GW buisness under there nose and they dont even sell Minatures. Magic the Gathering. I go to a 40K Tourney at ANY FLGS and there is 6-8 people, maybe 12 3 times a month. Everytime thiers a Magic Tourney it has 30 plus players. All at various ages. I saw a 50 year old couple playing. Why is this? Oh its because Magic is Cheaper and is seen at every FLGS, Book Store, and Wal-Mart. GW loses those children and teens who come in the store and see 4 guys playing 40k or Warmachine, then 20 playing Magic/Yugio/insert whatever. Its not a minature company but its a FLGS game thats cheap as hell, requires little work to maintane, and is VERY popular with its own tournies. Most people I ask why not play 40k say as much.

So I think GW really needs to look at its prices in the futur. Bottom line is this. 5 people are buying $120 box sets. Money made $600. However 20 boxes sold for $50. That makes $1150 Profit. How the Hell is GW thinking their going to remain King by charging outragious prices for thier shit when the Mass majority are buiyng (and can afford) PP?
This is the sales of my FLGS in a month time for Starter sets. And like MWG have pointed out, why would mommy pay $120 on the Impulse of their child when PP is selling their for $50? Even Mommy going with the cheaper one.

I dont get GW marketing...


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Yes - MTG is cheaper - but seriously - the price they charge for 10 pieces of cardboard is simply the worlds GREATEST rip off.



> So I think GW really needs to look at its prices in the futur. Bottom line is this. 5 people are buying $120 box sets. Money made $600. However 20 boxes sold for $50. That makes $1150 Profit. How the Hell is GW thinking their going to remain King by charging outragious prices for thier shit when the Mass majority are buiyng (and can afford) PP?


That assumes that a box set sold for $120 can be sold AT A PROFIT for $50 - something which I EXTREMELY doubt.

Wheres my evidence - well, its quite simply really - if GW had a 70/50 profit to cost ratio then they wouldnt have made £12million, they would have made something like £150million profit.



> I dont get GW marketing


GW marketing DOESNT work in the US - its fine and dandy in the UK where there simply is no competition. Thus, if GW can make some additional income of the boxes sold abroad, then so be it.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

It's a good video. I'm glad there's people like him out there.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

boreas said:


> QFT.
> 
> ...The menace for GW, outside of the UK, comes from people leaving miniature wargaming altogether. At 500$ (before taxes, 575$ after taxes) for a basic army (2 boxes of GK termies (and using one for the HQ), 4 boxes of GKs, 2 rhinos, a Stormraven and a Dreadknight), it's enormous. Add 5 paint pots (a bare minimum), a single brush, some glue, and the codex (40$!!!), the rulebook and templates and you're at a wooping 650$ (747$ w/ taxes).
> 
> ...


Actually, this only demonstrates people leaving GW systems and the cost of GW systems. I just bought an 2000 point mantic dwarf army for £130 all in. 
About the same will buy you a good warmachine/hordes army.
Don't make the mistake of equating wargaming with just GW systems...the world of wargaming geeks is waking up to the alternatives. Only a year ago GW systems were played by 80% of my local gaming club. Now its about the reverse with about 20% playing GW systems. Sure it's still the biggest minority....but no longer as dominant as it once was (of course a forum like this dedicated to 40k and people on it posting who sell 40k will be clamouring to claim the opposite within 5 minutes of this post!).


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## naturalbornloser (May 11, 2008)

Now I haven't bothered posting on the other " I hate GW price rise/ I hate GW" posts because it's the same shit every year. People posting and bitching about the price going up every year. It's the same thing every year. As I said last year, if price is that much of a problem stop getting plastic toys every month and get 'um when you can.

Now regards to all the posts about pricing and the "fuck you GW" I can't understand why acouple of people in a forum think that they matter so much. I mean cummon just because 30 odd members of an online forum are not happy with GW, dosn't mean the rest of the people who play GW are not.

Now I know I'm gonna get shot down for what I've just said because I'm not a "hater" but bear with me. Me and my friends have all been collecting 40k for years and just this past year have started to play. We have all spent at least £400 this year so far to get our armys at a point level worth playing. Now I'm not taking into account painting the army and shit. 

We have talked about the price of GW toys and we all know that they have our pants down over if. We also know that as a "HOBBY" it's something we don't mind. I say this because it's not something we have to have! It's something we want. None of us have ever baut off a web site, we always get our stuff from a GW shop as we want to keep our "hobby" in the money. We/me simply can't under stand why people are going mad over the price of a "hobby". Every hobby manufacturer pulls the pants down on the customer! Fact of life, get over it.

Also why do acouple of Internet people think their opinion is that important? Cummon, your not gonna buy GW anymore. Well laters then, thanks for your time. Their is and will be plenty more where you came from.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

slaaneshy said:


> Don't make the mistake of equating wargaming with just GW systems...the world of wargaming geeks is waking up to the alternatives. Only a year ago GW systems were played by 80% of my local gaming club. Now its about the reverse with about 20% playing GW systems. Sure it's still the biggest minority....but no longer as dominant as it once was (of course a forum like this dedicated to 40k and people on it posting who sell 40k will be clamouring to claim the opposite within 5 minutes of this post!).


I wont do anything of the sort. What I will say is that if your gaming group has moved games, its most likely because your gaming group had a couple of influential members who moved gaming system.

I would genuinely be SHOCKED if that is repeated in any great numbers across the country.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Maidel said:


> I wont do anything of the sort. What I will say is that if your gaming group has moved games, its most likely because your gaming group had a couple of influential members who moved gaming system.
> 
> I would genuinely be SHOCKED if that is repeated in any great numbers across the country.


It is happening more and more often. I know of at least three groups in my country that have moved almost entirely to Warmachine/Hordes. I realize that's not much in the grand scheme of things, but that's just what I personally have heard of. I'm sure that there are many more.

I think that GW's grip is starting to loosen and will continue to do so over time.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> It is happening more and more often. I know of at least three groups in my country that have moved almost entirely to Warmachine/Hordes. I realize that's not much in the grand scheme of things, but that's just what I personally have heard of. I'm sure that there are many more.
> 
> I think that GW's grip is starting to loosen and will continue to do so over time.


Yup people here are Dumping gw as well.......most in favor of flames of war mind you.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

The video was flawed for several reasons:

First, the poster clearly has no idea of what the UK market is like, which means he can't understand how a British company works. No company in this country, without exception, ever caters for the competition. Online retailers are competition and if you can find a way, legally, to damage the competition's sales, then go for it. That is business and that is the nature of business. To be honest I believe this is the case in any country and it should be the case where the internet is concerned as well.

Second, comparing Privateer Press and its products to Games Workshop makes no sense. Yes a battleforce in Warmachine may be $50 Canadian dollars, but you get a warcaster and two or three jacks at most in one. Whereas in a typical battleforce from GW you get twenty to thirty models. He describes the Black Reach, which has 46 models in it, as selling at around $120 Canadian Dollars. Well that's a better deal than 6-8 models for $100 Canadian Dollars. Indeed at that price you would need to spend $600 Canadian dollars to get as many models. Yes, those models are different in size, but then again Warmachine models tend to be smaller and the hard plastic isn't as good a material as the plastic GW uses, so my point remains that it's unfair to compare them. Additionally Games Workshop provide games that include armies which are radically different from one another, Orks and Tau for example. Privateer Press don't, nor do they cater for conversions in the same way as Games Workshop.

Third, the argument is incredibly difficult to follow, rapidly descending into a rambling cascade of repetition and scaremongering, designed to do little more than try and frighten Games Workshop into creating market conditions more favourable for the competition. It would not prove acceptable in a professional environment, rather than the amateur one that is the internet.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

The Sullen One said:


> Second, comparing Privateer Press and its products to Games Workshop makes no sense. Yes a battleforce in Warmachine may be $50 Canadian dollars, but you get a warcaster and two or three jacks at most in one. Whereas in a typical battleforce from GW you get twenty to thirty models. He describes the Black Reach, which has 46 models in it, as selling at around $120 Canadian Dollars. Well that's a better deal than 6-8 models for $100 Canadian Dollars. Indeed at that price you would need to spend $600 Canadian dollars to get as many models. Yes, those models are different in size, but then again Warmachine models tend to be smaller and the hard plastic isn't as good a material as the plastic GW uses, so my point remains that it's unfair to compare them. Additionally Games Workshop provide games that include armies which are radically different from one another, Orks and Tau for example. Privateer Press don't, nor do they cater for conversions in the same way as Games Workshop.


You seem to have missed his point (on top of making some biases points). It's not how many models you get but its the cost of starting the game. The fact that it only costs people 50 dollars to start one game compared to 120 dollars to start another game. He is not saying one is better then the other but what he is saying is gw should make a starter pack that is cheaper so it's easier for people to start 40k. Cause 120 dollars now scares customers away, its a bit to much to start. Is it a good value? Yes it is but its still costs a lot to start. So maybe if GW did a starter pack that cost say 75 dollars and only included one army, that would be more appealing to customers.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

slaaneshy said:


> I just bought an 2000 point mantic dwarf army for £130 all in.


thats alot of the same 2 dwarves :grin:


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## AlexHolker (Apr 27, 2011)

The Sullen One said:


> First, the poster clearly has no idea of what the UK market is like, which means he can't understand how a British company works. No company in this country, without exception, ever caters for the competition. Online retailers are competition and if you can find a way, legally, to damage the competition's sales, then go for it.


You are wrong for a number of reasons:
- You're mistaking a lack of agreement for a lack of understanding. He knows how Games Workshop does business. 
- You could just as accurately say that GW doesn't understand what the Canadian market is like, if they insist on doing things the "British" way. Given that they're talking about how GW does business _in Canada_, I think that's rather more important.
- Online retailers aren't the enemy, they are GW's _clients_, helping them distribute GWs product and thereby getting GW more money.



> Second, comparing Privateer Press and its products to Games Workshop makes no sense. Yes a battleforce in Warmachine may be $50 Canadian dollars, but you get a warcaster and two or three jacks at most in one. Whereas in a typical battleforce from GW you get twenty to thirty models. He describes the Black Reach, which has 46 models in it, as selling at around $120 Canadian Dollars. Well that's a better deal than 6-8 models for $100 Canadian Dollars. Indeed at that price you would need to spend $600 Canadian dollars to get as many models. Yes, those models are different in size, but then again Warmachine models tend to be smaller and the hard plastic isn't as good a material as the plastic GW uses, so my point remains that it's unfair to compare them.


It doesn't _matter_ if it's fair. If people are buying your competitor's starter set instead of yours, you can't whine that they're being unfair and expect them to take you seriously.



> Third, the argument is incredibly difficult to follow, rapidly descending into a rambling cascade of repetition and scaremongering, designed to do little more than try and frighten Games Workshop into creating market conditions more favourable for the competition. It would not prove acceptable in a professional environment, rather than the amateur one that is the internet.


If you can't understand his argument, I'd suggest the problem is on your end, not his. Everyone else seems to have understood it just fine.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> You seem to have missed his point (on top of making some biases points). It's not how many models you get but its the cost of starting the game. The fact that it only costs people 50 dollars to start one game compared to 120 dollars to start another game. He is not saying one is better then the other but what he is saying is gw should make a starter pack that is cheaper so it's easier for people to start 40k. Cause 120 dollars now scares customers away, its a bit to much to start. Is it a good value? Yes it is but its still costs a lot to start. So maybe if GW did a starter pack that cost say 75 dollars and only included one army, that would be more appealing to customers.


why should GW give people false expectations about how much a hobby is gonna cost by luring them in with a low starter pack? thats pretty bad business practice, its akin to a drug dealer giving you the first hit for free.

Anyone who cant see how good value assault on black reach is frankly crazy, two very significant armies with rules and templates an dice for £60 ish, thats a steal ! 

People dont start hobbies based on price, they may not start a hobby based on its cost but thats just life, i would happily love to start carpentry as a hobby, but sadly funds dont stretch to owning my own woodwork shop yet, but im not going to hang around carpentry forums insisting tool manufactures are charging too much.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

bitsandkits said:


> why should GW give people false expectations about how much a hobby is gonna cost by luring them in with a low starter pack? thats pretty bad business practice, its akin to a drug dealer giving you the first hit for free.
> 
> Anyone who cant see how good value assault on black reach is frankly crazy, two very significant armies with rules and templates an dice for £60 ish, thats a steal !


It isn't about value, though. The fact is that a lot of people are put off the hobby by the entry price. If it cost like... $70 to start, then I bet you'd have a lot more people willing to give the hobby a go.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> It isn't about value, though. The fact is that a lot of people are put off the hobby by the entry price. If it cost like... $70 to start, then I bet you'd have a lot more people willing to give the hobby a go.


they may start but they would soon be disappointed when they realize how much the hobby actually costs, better to set there expectations from the off, this is how much it will cost and prices will rise in the future.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> they may start but they would soon be disappointed when they realize how much the hobby actually costs, better to set there expectations from the off, this is how much it will cost and prices will rise in the future.


The thing is they offer two armies in a starter set, why not just get rid of one army and reduce the price. You're still getting the same value.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

bitsandkits said:


> they may start but they would soon be disappointed when they realize how much the hobby actually costs, better to set there expectations from the off, this is how much it will cost and prices will rise in the future.


You're right. But the thing is, GW seems to have crossed a threshold here in Canada. The entry price might reflect the real cost of the hobby, but it now seems to be too high for most gamers. Now, that effect used to be somehow blunted by international sellers, allowing a bit more people to keep collecting. Now, with no international sales and Canadian prices being higher, we're losing that critical mass of gamers that can pull newer people in. In my larger circle of friend (including my friends and, say my friend's friends, so overall 50 people), we've exhausted the potential, and we're losing more than gaining new gamers.

When I show GW games to fellow "geeks", they are a bit taken abck by the whole effort they'd have to put in. When I tell them how much an army is worth, they start laughing. When I tell them how much a real playable army is (say a 1000-1500 pts core that you'll always use and a 1500pts of floating units that come and go depending on the lists), they outright tell me I'm mad. 

Once again, possibly a cultural thing. But the real, down-to-earth, harsh truth is that GW's current business model (more models, more quality, high-price) seems to be killing WFB/WH40k here. 

Phil


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

bitsandkits said:


> they may start but they would soon be disappointed when they realize how much the hobby actually costs, better to set there expectations from the off, this is how much it will cost and prices will rise in the future.


I don't think that's true. Even if it was though, at least GW would be selling _something_ to those people rather than nothing.

Besides, I figure most people would realize how much fun 40k is and would be willing to spend more to expand what they have to begin with. It's how Magic the Gathering works, you pay $15 or so for a starting deck and then it's like $6 per booster pack which when you consider the sheer number of cards contained in a starter deck compared to a booster pack seems like a rip-off. Yet, people will buy booster packs because they want to expand upon what they have.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> The thing is they offer two armies in a starter set, why not just get rid of one army and reduce the price. You're still getting the same value.


its not a starter set if its only got one army in it, you cant play on your own its a two player game, if you want a cheap start on an army you buy a battle force, which will save you money and gives you a nice chunk of models to build around


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> I don't think that's true. Even if it was though, at least GW would be selling _something_ to those people rather than nothing.
> 
> Besides, I figure most people would realize how much fun 40k is and would be willing to spend more to expand what they have to begin with. It's how Magic the Gathering works, you pay $15 or so for a starting deck and then it's like $6 per booster pack which when you consider the sheer number of cards contained in a starter deck compared to a booster pack seems like a rip-off. Yet, people will buy booster packs because they want to expand upon what they have.


wow your over paying for magic cards! i get 3 or 4 packs for 10 =/


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> its not a starter set if its only got one army in it, you cant play on your own its a two player game, if you want a cheap start on an army you buy a battle force, which will save you money and gives you a nice chunk of models to build around


Why should one person be force to buy two armies? That makes no sense, your not going to play verse yourself. Also Battleforces is missing so many things that the assault of black reach offers and is just as expensive.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Azkaellon said:


> wow your over paying for magic cards! i get 3 or 4 packs for 10 =/


I don't play Magic, it's an example. I'm wondering if my point was even taken.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> Why should one person be force to buy two armies? That makes no sense, your not going to play verse yourself. Also Battleforces is missing so many things that the assault of black reach offers and is just as expensive.


you see here is the problem, no one is forcing anyone to buy anything, besides who starts a two player minimum hobby on there own? would you buy monopoly or scrabble to play by yourself? In my experience over 20 years i have never started a GW game system alone, i have always shared the burden of starting the game with at least one other person(thats why there are two armies) and in some cases 5 or more people,that is GWs expectation as its a social hobby, unlike computer games, reading,art etc etc which can be done alone, wargaming needs atleast two people, so the burden of starting is atleast halved, it kinda reminds me of when my mum bought me a chess set and said "something to do when your bored", "cheers mum but i live alone and the cat cheats at bored games".


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

bitsandkits said:


> you see here is the problem, no one is forcing anyone to buy anything, besides who starts a two player minimum hobby on there own?


Warmachine players do it all the time.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Warmachine players do it all the time.


Well they would have to, whats the chance of finding two idiots in such close proximity :biggrin:


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> you see here is the problem, no one is forcing anyone to buy anything, besides who starts a two player minimum hobby on there own? would you buy monopoly or scrabble to play by yourself? In my experience over 20 years i have never started a GW game system alone, i have always shared the burden of starting the game with at least one other person(thats why there are two armies) and in some cases 5 or more people,that is GWs expectation as its a social hobby, unlike computer games, reading,art etc etc which can be done alone, wargaming needs atleast two people, so the burden of starting is atleast halved, it kinda reminds me of when my mum bought me a chess set and said something to do when your bored, cheers mum but i live alone and the cat cheats at bored games.


First of all the idea of comparing 40k to monopoly is a terrible one. First of all there are different armies in 40k and different units. Now you've made it harder to sell the starter pack. Why cause instead of having to convince one person, you have to convince two people to start 40k. Usually there are already people there playing 40k. So it is unnecessary for them to buy two armies. And even if you do get two people who want to start what happens if both players want to play space marines or they both want to play orks. Well now you've lost to customers. Not to menition they have to share the rule book, templates, dice which causes lots of problems. The point is if GW removed orks or marines from the starter set and made a starter set for each of them they would sell far better.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> Well they would have to, whats the chance of finding two idiots in such close proximity :biggrin:


That is terrible answer (and insulting), also not to mention all the 40k players here have become war machine players.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

bitsandkits said:


> Well they would have to, whats the chance of finding two idiots in such close proximity :biggrin:


Cute, but there are plenty of people who realize there's a local scene for [insert game here] and will buy a starter set to play with the people in the local scene. There are _lots_ of people that play all sorts of games that don't need a 'partner' to start a game with.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> That is terrible answer (and insulting), also not to mention all the 40k players here have become war machine players.


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/joke

Interesting read mate.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Vaz said:


> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/joke
> 
> Interesting read mate.


It's just that it isn't terribly funny when you're trying to engage in conversation with someone and they don't appear to be taking it seriously. I'm sure Necrosis is smart enough to know a joke when he sees one.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Vaz said:


> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/joke
> 
> Interesting read mate.


Some people still find jokes insulting.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> First of all the idea of comparing 40k to monopoly is a terrible one. First of all there are different armies in 40k and different units. Now you've made it harder to sell the starter pack. Why cause instead of having to convince one person, you have to convince two people to start 40k. Usually there are already people there playing 40k. So it is unnecessary for them to buy two armies. And even if you do get two people who want to start what happens if both players want to play space marines or they both want to play orks. Well now you've lost to customers. Not to menition they have to share the rule book, templates, dice which causes lots of problems. The point is if GW removed orks or marines from the starter set and made a starter set for each of them they would sell far better.


No, your over thinking it, your looking at this from the eyes of someone who has some knowledge of the game for the sake of arguing with me, which is wrong, AOBR is a starter pack designed for two players, its a boxed game with rules and game pieces for two or more players, the people its aimed at dont want to play Orks or marines, they have got a game to play and until they delve into the box and start to play a few games they are not ready to make choices on which army they will play because they are not aware of what is what and whos who etc. You are missing what a introduction to the hobby is. once they have played the games they can either chuck it back in the box, expand the armies they have or decide to try some of the other races and buy a codex and battle force and get started in the HOBBY, AOBR is a through the key hole thing, its a taster at the super market deli counter.

taking out the crap models you dont want and making it cheaper makes no business sense, if you want to start an army GW want as much money from you as they can get, why should they make your life any easier? 

I


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> Some people still find jokes insulting.


pretty sure those people are not getting the joke part of a joke. 

Besides i would have thought if your playing Warmachine you would be used to jokes considering the models PP put out :biggrin:


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

bitsandkits said:


> ... wargaming needs atleast two people, so the burden of starting is atleast halved...


Actually, in wargaming at large (if, for example, you don't have two players wanting excatly SM and ORK), the burden is doubled. For 2 basic armies, you have to find 2 roommates willing to buy for about 1000$ of toys and rules in-between them if they want to start two decent armies.

Now, for that same amount, they could get a great board game and, I don't know, pay the friggin rent for a month! Heck they could buy a cheap used car and use it to go buy the board game. Or they could buy 12-15 great quality boardgames. Or get themselves a 42" TV, an Xbox and a few WH40k videogames.


Now, that might seem silly, but it's the kind of reasoning my friends do. Now, lower all that by 25% when buying from overseas, and it's 750$. It's still pretty high, but 250$ in your pockets goes a long way. 

Phil


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> No, your over thinking it, your looking at this from the eyes of someone who has some knowledge of the game for the sake of arguing with me, which is wrong, AOBR is a starter pack designed for two players, its a boxed game with rules and game pieces for two or more players, the people its aimed at dont want to play Orks or marines, they have got a game to play and until they delve into the box and start to play a few games they are not ready to make choices on which army they will play because they are not aware of what is what and whos who etc. You are missing what a introduction to the hobby is. once they have played the games they can either chuck it back in the box, expand the armies they have or decide to try some of the other races and buy a codex and battle force and get started in the HOBBY, AOBR is a through the key hole thing, its a taster at the super market deli counter.
> 
> taking out the crap models you dont want and making it cheaper makes no business sense, if you want to start an army GW want as much money from you as they can get, why should they make your life any easier?


Why should they make my life easier? Well first it's not my life but everyone who plays 40k or at least wants to start. What happens if our lives are easier? Umm, how about we buy more stuff which means more business which means more money. You make a customer life a pain, they don't buy products from you.

And yet cause of this they are losing customers. The whole point is that it's to expensive now. The fact is getting two people is harder then one person not to mention it limits the armies which you can start. In the end GW would have more customers. That is a simply fact, you can argue it all day but you won't change that fact. I've seen people not start 40k cause the starter pack has two armies and was to expensive.

Also about jokes, is it okay to make black jokes in front of a black guy? Or to make Jewish jokes in front of a Jewish person? But I guess your kind of force to do that when you can't come up with a response.


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## IadUmboros (Aug 9, 2010)

Necrosis said:


> Why should they make my life easier? Well first it's not my life but everyone who plays 40k or at least wants to start. What happens if our lives are easier? Umm, how about we buy more stuff which means more business which means more money. You make a customer life a pain, they don't buy products from you.


I follow that.



Necrosis said:


> And yet cause of this they are losing customers. The whole point is that it's to expensive now. The fact is getting two people is harder then one person not to mention it limits the armies which you can start. In the end GW would have more customers. That is a simply fact, you can argue it all day but you won't change that fact. I've seen people not start 40k cause the starter pack has two armies and was to expensive.


You don't to get two people to buy it though? I bought it then got my friend to play with me. No-one asked me if my friend wanted to play before I bought it. GW asked me if I liked the game and asked me to buy it. Some people think it's too expensive for what it is, fair enough. How does it limit what armies you are collecting? I started with AoBR and then went on to collect Chaos Marines.



Necrosis said:


> Also about jokes, is it okay to make black jokes in front of a black guy?


What? No.



Necrosis said:


> Or to make Jewish jokes in front of a Jewish person?


NO!!!!



Necrosis said:


> But I guess your kind of force to do that when you can't come up with a response.


What? Does this mean we can't tell jokes in case a person is there?


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

IadUmboros said:


> How does it limit what armies you are collecting? I started with AoBR and then went on to collect Chaos Marines.


It's the fact that there is no starter set for other armies at the value of AoBR.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> Also about jokes, is it okay to make black jokes in front of a black guy? Or to make Jewish jokes in front of a Jewish person? But I guess your kind of force to do that when you can't come up with a response.


Well i think its better to tell jokes, than trivialize two races of people because you got offended by a joke about a game of toy soldiers:shok:
besides many black and Jewish people find race jokes hilarious, most of the best stand up comedians are black or Jewish and half there act is about making fun of there own race, race is funny,Do you think woody allen and chris rock would have any career to speak of if they didnt tell racist jokes ? plus you assume im not Black or Jewish could i tell black Jewish jokes if im a Black Jew? or do we Black Jews not allowed to lampoon ourselves ?


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> Well i think its better to tell jokes, than trivialize two races of people because you got offended by a joke about a game of toy soldiers:shok:
> besides many black and Jewish people find race jokes hilarious, most of the best stand up comedians are black or Jewish and half there act is about making fun of there own race, race is funny,Do you think woody allen and chris rock would have any career to speak of if they didnt tell racist jokes ? plus you assume im not Black or Jewish could i tell black Jewish jokes if im a Black Jew? or do we Black Jews not allowed to lampoon ourselves ?


A comedian is expected to make jokes, a person who is making a debate is not and is insulting to the other debaters when they do make one cause it means you are no longer serious about the debate and have no respect for them. Edit but now were are getting off topic.


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Necrosis said:


> It's the fact that there is no starter set for other armies at the value of AoBR.


But I would imagine they can only afford to sell AOBR at such good value because it's mass produced. And the models are sub-standard.

I have to agree with Bits on the purpose of the 40k starter sets. When i got into 40k with 2nd edition, I loved having 2 armies out of the box. I could play my mate who already had an army, as well as playing games with other friends who hadn't tried it. I could also play out games against myself to practice my understanding of the rules.

With the warmachine starter boxes, are the rules cards any good? Will you need to buy the proper rules and army books anyway if you get into the game?

I guess GW could start putting basic rules and stat cards in the battleforces, but they will never be able to get a starter set out for £35, as you just can't make a playable army with 4 models like you can with the skirmish game systems.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Debste? This shits getting serious. As to telling racist jokes, hell yes. Got a joke off DeShawn, a Bajan guy who's attached to my unit today. This is what he sent;

"Walked into a bar today, and said "Give me a pint ******" to the black bar staff. 

He said it was racist, and how would I like it if the tables were turned. I thought about and said I didn't know, so lets change it round.

He comes in and says to me "give me a pint, honky".

I just said "sorry we don't serve *******".

Now, that's come from a black guy. I won't think twice about calling a couple of people I don't know playing a game "idiots" for a bit of comedic effect.

And it did make me chuckle. But I guess being the sick twisted bastard I am, laughing at racist jokes etc, that's to be expected and proves nothing, Am I right? 

On with the show children.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Varakir said:


> But I would imagine they can only afford to sell AOBR at such good value because it's mass produced. And the models are sub-standard.
> 
> I have to agree with Bits on the purpose of the 40k starter sets. When i got into 40k with 2nd edition, I loved having 2 armies out of the box. I could play my mate who already had an army, as well as playing games with other friends who hadn't tried it. I could also play out games against myself to practice my understanding of the rules.
> 
> ...


Other starter sets could be mass produced and model be sub standard. That would still be enough for you to get started.

The rule cards do come with all the rules (and I mean all the rules). If there is to many rules to put on one card they will simply give you a 2nd card with all the other rules on it. This is common for warcrasters.

The question isn't comparing what you get in each box between warmachine and 40k but the amount it costs to start, which is 50 compared to 120. I don't think 40k can do 50 but 75 I think they could do.

Am I saying should we get rid of assault on Black Reach? No, keep it since people like it. But they should also have one box starter sets to that cost 75 dollars that come with models of sub standard quality. Something that can get people quickly in the game for not to much.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

I like the fact that he's making his speech to GW while using his display of PP's miniature range as a background. Very subtle that.

Anyway... I think the starter set as GW currently has and envisions it SHOULD be considered like monopoly, or chess, or any other game that requires you to need to find additional idiots to play against  

Theoretically someone should be able to pick it up, never knowing that there's more to it than just that box, take it home and play with a friend (potentially some assembly required, but still). You want people interested, and the distribution as wide as possible. Sell it at supermarkets, so to speak.

The people who pick it up might then learn there's other armies and possibilities, be intrigued, and after research look into getting a Battleforce of their army of choice and turn into a prized repeat customer.

The problem, of course, is that the starter sets have kept increasing in price, and really ARE getting to the point where - great value for money or not - they're beyond the 'impulse buy' price point.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> Well i think its better to tell jokes, than trivialize two races of people because you got offended by a joke about a game of toy soldiers:shok:
> 
> or do we Black Jews not allowed to lampoon ourselves ?


Only if you explain all the facts first, thus ruining the joke before you've even told it:grin:

Would a possible third 'win win' approach not be a good idea?

Maybe GW could still sell AoBR, with everything that comes in the box, as a nice intro. Then, they could also put the little rule book and a mini 'dex into the Battle Force boxes?
They don't have to give away the whole Codex, just enough to know what the minis are and what they equate to in game terms.
So in the CSM Battle Force you would get a little book that says you have X amount of points worth of A,B and C which can be put together like this....
They could then stick in a few pictures, like in the AoBR stuff to tempt people into buying more.
That way they have a decent entry point for players who are getting into games with some mates or people who have mates who already play and want to join in.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> A comedian is expected to make jokes, a person who is making a debate is not and is insulting to the other debaters when they do make one cause it means you are no longer serious about the debate and have no respect for them. Edit but now were are getting off topic.


Im not serious about the topic, never have been, the video is a complete waste of time and i didnt see the memo saying we can no longer make jokes about warmachine in the forums because everything is a serious debate, and your arguments about the format of a starter set are flawed, like i have said AOBR is not aimed at you and I , its aimed at 13 year old timmy who was given it for a birthday or christmas, and hes gonna chuck some dice around with his dad/brother/sister/cousin/best mate nextdoor in his bedroom. 
As for warmachine starter sets, i dont profess to know anything about them other than its apprently $50 canadian and the dude in the video has a boner for them.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> Im not serious about the topic, never have been, the video is a complete waste of time and i didnt see the memo saying we can no longer make jokes about warmachine in the forums because everything is a serious debate, and your arguments about the format of a starter set are flawed, like i have said AOBR is not aimed at you and I , its aimed at 13 year old timmy who was given it for a birthday or christmas, and hes gonna chuck some dice around with his dad/brother/sister/cousin/best mate nextdoor in his bedroom.
> As for warmachine starter sets, i dont profess to know anything about them other than its apprently $50 canadian and the dude in the video has a boner for them.


If your not even going to take this seriously, why even post here or argue it? Making fun of warmachine is fine but when your in an argument or debating where people are making valid points, it kind of insult to them to make a joke as a response to there points.

And that timmy thing is the problem. He going to play it and forget about it. When you have someone who want to actually join the hobby, it's to expensive for them to get started. GW should have some sort of starter pack aimed at people who actually want to join 40k, not just for 13 year old timmy.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Only if you explain all the facts first, thus ruining the joke before you've even told it:grin:
> 
> Would a possible third 'win win' approach not be a good idea?
> 
> ...


a very good and sound idea norm, and for the life of my i wonder why they havent already, hell they could even print it on the damn box so you could cut it out and keep as a reference card or some thing like. 
Dont get me wrong i think GW are missing some serious marketing tricks that would cast them next to nothing to implement, but the dude on the video was so far off the mark as to what GW is about it was unreal, hes talking about internet trade while standing in a bricks and mortar store, the embrgo GW put in place benefits HIM and his video will have gone nicely viral and promoting his store all over the net. i dont see a champion of a cause in him i just see a dude who's marketed his store to loads of new people, after all until today i had no idea who miniwargaming was


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Not to mention that 13 year old Timmy's dad is NOT going to be just buying his son a 78 euro (or local equivalent) box. The cutoff point for an impulse buy is about 50 euros... There's a reason full-price computer games have been 49,99 Euros for YEARS.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Shandathe said:


> Not to mention that 13 year old Timmy's dad is NOT going to be just buying his son a 78 euro (or local equivalent) box. The cutoff point for an impulse buy is about 50 euros... There's a reason full-price computer games have been 49,99 Euros for YEARS.


now if we want to talk about companies that take the piss with pricing we can debate xbox and PS3 till the cows come home, currently waiting for Dungeon siege 3 but thats another story.

and sorry if anyone else thought i was taking this thread seriously, i watched the video and figured we were all just gonna have a laugh and a jape , but apparently the dude who made the video was serious :shok:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Games are at that price because companies design them to be at the price, and the realistic income > investment - the time invested in mods of some games can equate to more hours and hence are often higher quality. If a game to make back it's investment will work out at £60, it won't be sold at that, it just won't have that much invested into it. Only certain companies can afford to invest mega amounts into games - Bioware, Activision/Blizzard, Sqenix, etc, due to the return.

GW's scale isn't that big - so with the increased "quality" and investiture comes an increase in price - and unlike gaming industry, where a few hours mistakes can be rolled back to base for no loss, it often results in an entire restart of a models sculpt.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

> the embrgo GW put in place benefits HIM and his video will have gone nicely viral and promoting his store all over the net. i dont see a champion of a cause in him i just see a dude who's marketed his store to loads of new people, after all until today i had no idea who miniwargaming was


QFT! Cheapest advertising ever from a self serving twat.



> Originally Posted by Chimaera
> Lastly while GW make the best minis with the best fluff and support material. People will buy and all others will be a poor mans choice until that point. Why buy a Ford or a Daewoo if you can afford a BMW or a Lexus. Ultimately GW are in the hobby for the long term.
> 
> Originally Posted by Synack
> This is a bad comparison. You don't drive a BMW or Lexus cause everyone else drives one, you drive it cause it's a nice car.


LOL such a bad comparison you got it without even realising it LMFAO.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Point of order, gentlemen, he's been around a while. You said, he's talking about internet trade while standing in a bricks and mortar store, but be aware he ALSO does internet trade 


bitsandkits said:


> sorry if anyone else thought i was taking this thread seriously, i watched the video and figured we were all just gonna have a laugh and a jape , but apparently the dude who made the video was serious :shok:


Yep, he was. Might've been wrong on some points, but he was right on others, especially the barrier to entrance to (the GW side of) the Hobby.


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Necrosis said:


> Other starter sets could be mass produced and model be sub standard. That would still be enough for you to get started.
> 
> Am I saying should we get rid of assault on Black Reach? No, keep it since people like it. But they should also have one box starter sets to that cost 75 dollars that come with models of sub standard quality. Something that can get people quickly in the game for not to much.



I still think your asking too much. The battleforces are already very good value, and I don't see why they couldn't throw in some rules & stat cards like I said earlier - or like norm said, include a mini rule book since they will already be doing mass printings of these anyway for AOBR. But even if they included these in the battleforce without raising the prices it'd still be $95.

Sub standard models for starter kits aren't really an option either. They can afford to sell the AOBR sprues at a discount price because they are only designing a small number of sprues which a huge amount of people will purchase. Putting sub-standard sprues in the starter kits for every race is going to cost a lot more in development, and will spread the market a lot thinner.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Varakir said:


> I still think your asking too much. The battleforces are already very good value, and I don't see why they couldn't throw in some rules & stat cards like I said earlier - or like norm said, include a mini rule book since they will already be doing mass printings of these anyway for AOBR. But even if they included these in the battleforce without raising the prices it'd still be $95.


Still an improvement over the 130 for a battleforce. Yes a battleforce is it a good value (as you save around 20 to 50 dollars on it) but still it's about the price getting started. Alright you do have a point about the development. So why not create a starter set just for marines. Same models in AoBR just without the orks (or the other way around or both). I mean at that point GW could probably reduce it starting price to 75.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

This comment might spark off some debate.

I looked at the other side of things, if i were a shareholder of GW Global i would want bang for my pound, i want at the end on the financial year the best dividend i can get, that is why i invest my money into any company so as a shareholder of GW Global i don't give a rats arse how they do it as long as i get that cheque once a year or whenever.

I have been a shareholder in the past and i can tell you i didn't give a rats arse how my company did it, i just wanted that dividend cheque.

The video basically for 21+ minutes said nothing that would make any impact on the shareholders, and guess what GW Global management are answerable to the Shareholders and *not the customers* if they don't perform they are sacked and replaced.

P.S Customers can not sack the GW Global management and are like teflon, nothing we say sticks.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

Necrosis said:


> Still an improvement over the 130 for a battleforce. Yes a battleforce is it a good value (as you save around 20 to 50 dollars on it) but still it's about the price getting started. Alright you do have a point about the development. So why not create a starter set just for marines. Same models in AoBR just without the orks (or the other way around or both). I mean at that point GW could probably reduce it starting price to 75.


A bit of a non issue regarding a cheap SM starter here. You can get what your asking for from that well known auction site. It costs 50% less than buying the individual box sets equivalent but won't be as much value for money as simply buying the full AOBR set. Or you could buy AOBR and simply sell off the Orks on said auction site. You could then use this money to go and buy a more specialised SM box set, say Devastators or an Assault squad, even more AOBR SM's or have 50% of the money needed to go and buy a SM battleforce.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Chimaera said:


> A bit of a non issue regarding a cheap SM starter here. You can get what your asking for from that well known auction site. It costs 50% less than buying the individual box sets equivalent but won't be as much value for money as simply buying the full AOBR set. Or you could buy AOBR and simply sell off the Orks on said auction site. You could then use this money to go and buy a more specialised SM box set, say Devastators or an Assault squad or even more AOBR SM's.


True but your not getting the rules, dice, templates and anything else I forgot to mention. There is also the fact that you are going to an auction store to get the items, not everyone buys from auction stores as they don't like to, don't have a credit card or for whatever reason.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

Necrosis said:


> True but your not getting the rules, dice, templates and anything else I forgot to mention. There is also the fact that you are going to an auction store to get the items, not everyone buys from auction stores as they don't like to, don't have a credit card or for whatever reason.


That acution site also sells on "Buy It Now" and this is what I have used when quoting the 50% reduction vs the specialised box sets. Yes you need a payment method but where there is a will there is a way. If you buy on auction your savings may be even greater.

If you look at my example of buying AOBR and selling off the Orks and using those funds to but a SM battleforce. A £90 or equivalent currency spend would get you the below.

AOBR mini rules.
Dice (yes you will need to buy more)
Templates
SM Captain (AOBR version)
1 x 5 man Terminator squad (AOBR versions)
1 x 5 man Assault squad
2 x 10 man Tactical squad (1 would be AOBR version)
1 x 5 man Combat squad
1 x 5 man Scout squad
1 x Dreadnought (AOBR Melta version)
1 x Rhino

This should be quite a shoulder up on starting a SM army. It's also a cheaper way for someone to dip their toe into the world of 40k and have some reasonable unit & model variation.

I suppose in a funny way I have to laugh. Most people on here are moaning about internet trading restrictions. Now we are talking about people not having internet access. I guess you just cannot please all the people all of the time.

Anyway maybe the suggestion above will help some people out there get into the game or start a SM army. Obviously you could start an Ork army using the same method by selling off the SM's instead.


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Necrosis said:


> Still an improvement over the 130 for a battleforce. Yes a battleforce is it a good value (as you save around 20 to 50 dollars on it) but still it's about the price getting started. Alright you do have a point about the development. So why not create a starter set just for marines. Same models in AoBR just without the orks (or the other way around or both). I mean at that point GW could probably reduce it starting price to 75.


Apologies, I forgot to account for the GW 'area increase'. I actually meant the battleforce starter set would be at the usual price of $130. I still think that's good value for what you would get though.

To be honest i don't see how GW can compete on starter sets with malifaux or warmahordes, purely due to how the game works. You can have a decent game of malifaux with 5 models, and you need considerably more than that to play a decent game of 40k. They could give you a troops unit and a bunch of card proxies, but would anyone really want that?

I do like your AOBR half and half kits, i think those would sell pretty nicely.


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## tu_shan82 (Mar 7, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> Anyone who cant see how good value assault on black reach is frankly crazy, two very significant armies with rules and templates an dice for £60 ish, thats a steal !





bitsandkits said:


> Besides i would have thought if your playing Warmachine you would be used to jokes considering the models PP put out :biggrin:



Hate to break it to you B+K but if anything is a joke, it's the static, one guy is exactly the same as the next guy, two dimensionally posed miniatures that come in GW starter sets that you reckon are great value, and in the eyes of anyone who's honest with themselves are no where near as good looking as the stuff PP puts out. :biggrin:


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Chimaera said:


> That acution site also sells on "Buy It Now" and this is what I have used when quoting the 50% reduction vs the specialised box sets. Yes you need a payment method but where there is a will there is a way. If you buy on auction your savings may be even greater.
> 
> If you look at my example of buying AOBR and selling off the Orks and using those funds to but a SM battleforce. A £90 or equivalent currency spend would get you the below.
> 
> ...


Auctions work great and you can get some great deal with them, in fact you can get the best deals with them (like I got an entire dark eldar army for 20 dollars once). The only problem is many new people when they start this hobby probably won't use an auction.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

Necrosis said:


> Auctions work great and you can get some great deal with them, in fact you can get the best deals with them (like I got an entire dark eldar army for 20 dollars once). The only problem is many new people when they start this hobby probably won't use an auction.


True some won't but then if you flip the coin with a lot people moaning on here about getting people or friends into their gaming group/hobby at entry level. Surely they would advise them of a reasonably low cost way of entering the hobby? They can then decide if they want to fork out more after deciding if they like the game and want to. It's their choice there on in.

Indeed if this guy on the video was such a great champion of the cause. I would be expecting him to give all his customers the advice I have. Then again maybe his motives are more money driven. Let not fool ourselves here.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Chimaera said:


> True some won't but then if you flip the coin with a lot people moaning on here about getting people or friends into their gaming group/hobby at entry level. Surely they would advise them of a reasonably low cost way of entering the hobby? They can then decide if they want to fork out more after deciding if they like the game and want to. It's their choice there on in.


I'm not sure the idea of having to win an auction to get stuff for a decent price would appeal very strongly to someone new to the hobby.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Well if i were to buy individual items off my supplier on EBay to make up a Chaos Space Marines Battleforce would come to a total of $127.30US for the actual items but then $64.95US in postage, making a grand total of $192.25US for an equivalent Chaos Space Marines Battleforce, which sells for $180Au which considering is 60c Australian cheaper than shelf price.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> I'm not sure the idea of having to win an auction to get stuff for a decent price would appeal very strongly to someone new to the hobby.


Come on Katie that's not all I said. If you are going to quote at least quote in entirety.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Chimaera said:


> Come on Katie that's not all I said. If you are going to quote at least quote in the entirity.


What do you want? You edited your post after I made mine. Give me a break here.



> Indeed if this guy on the video was such a great champion of the cause. I would be expecting him to give all his customers the advice I have. Then again maybe his motives are more money driven. Let not fool ourselves here.


Who's saying that everything that this guy has said is all that is holy and good? At this point I think people are more talking about the dumb shit GW decides to do and how they could make the hobby more accessible to new people.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

Achaylus72 said:


> Well if i were to buy individual items off my supplier on EBay to make up a Chaos Space Marines Battleforce would come to a total of $127.30US for the actual items but then $64.95US in postage, making a grand total of $192.25US for an equivalent Chaos Space Marines Battleforce, which sells for $180Au which considering is 60c Australian cheaper than shelf price.


How difficult is it to read what I said. Was I talking about a Chaos Battleforce. Come on people get a grip.



> What do you want? You edited your post after I made mine. Give me a break here.


The edit effected the example nought.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Katie Drake said:


> I'm not sure the idea of having to win an auction to get stuff for a decent price would appeal very strongly to someone new to the hobby.


That may be true but some folks i know love the thrill of the battle of purchasing off Auctions.

It was through an Auction that i got a Mad Dok Grotstik from Britain for 6.00bp including postage.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Achaylus72 said:


> That may be true but some folks i know love the thrill of the battle of purchasing off Auctions.


I don't disagree that auctioning is fun, but I seriously doubt that anyone that is new to the hobby would enjoy the idea of having to jump through hoops to get decent prices. If I intended to buy a computer game that went for $100 but would auction for considerably less I can tell you with certainty that I would instead have one hell of a night on the town.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Lets get this clear:
Are auctions good? Yes they are, you can get awesome deals.
Does everyone use an auction? No, many people do not, many which are new to the hobby. Yes some people love to use actions but others hate it and most new people will not use an auction. 

What we are targeting is the new people joining the hobby who don't use auctions.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

Necrosis said:


> Lets get this clear:
> Are auctions good? Yes they are, you can get awesome deals.
> Does everyone use an auction? No, many people do not, many which are new to the hobby. Yes some people love to use actions but others hate it and most new people will not use an auction.
> 
> What we are targeting is the new people joining the hobby who don't use auctions.


Why have we gone off on a tangent about auctions? As already pointed out auction purchases are not required to get in to the game, good advice is. I suppose auctions could form a part of this advice but not required.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Oh, I see what you're saying now.

Okay, yes, people may advise their friends to buy from cheaper sources like web stores, but then there's the issue of not supporting local stores which opens up an entirely new can of worms, least of which is that store owners might tell people that never purchase anything to find somewhere else to play.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> Oh, I see what you're saying now.
> 
> Okay, yes, people may advise their friends to buy from cheaper sources like web stores, but then there's the issue of not supporting local stores which opens up an entirely new can of worms, least of which is that store owners might tell people that never purchase anything to find somewhere else to play.


That's really not what I am saying although you could do it that way if desired.

You purchase AOBR & the Battleforce from the local store in my example, what the £90 spend is based on. It's the half of AOBR you don't want you sell off online or I suppose maybe to another gamer or friend if that oppotunity exists. A B&M store purchase is still what my example is based on for the 2 sets purchase.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Chimaera said:


> That's really not what I am saying although you could do it that way if desired.
> 
> You purchase AOBR & the Battleforce from the local store in my example, what the £90 spend is based on. It's the half of AOBR you don't want you sell off online or I suppose maybe to another gamer or friend if that oppotunity exists. A B&M store purchase is still what my example is based on for the 2 sets purchase.


Yeah, that's fair, but that's still a lot of jumping through hoops just to get a decent price on something. I have to buy AOBR, the Marine Battleforce, then I need to track down someone who wants the Orks or put them on eBay and hope I get a bite.

_Or_ GW could just package things sanely and appropriately priced.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Chimaera said:


> That's really not what I am saying although you could do it that way if desired.
> 
> You purchase AOBR & the Battleforce from the local store in my example, what the spend is based on. It's the half of AOBR you don't want you sell off online or I suppose maybe to another gamer or friend if that oppotunity exists. A B&M store purchase is still what my example is based on for the 2 sets purchase.


That's a fair point and no one is arguing it. We're just arguing the amount of people who use or do that sort of thing. As a new person is not likely to do that.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

I understand where you are both coming from but it is what it is. Don't get me wrong I am not a lover of their pricing but on the other hand I love their product. Maybe changes will come in entry box sets. There have been a number of advances in their plastic production and the next set may be a leap on from AOBR. I guess we will have to wait and see. Nobody should worry about trying to shift AOBR Orks online. You should quite easily get £30 or currency equivalent for them. I see traders online who do nothing but sell AOBR broken down in bulk. This is maybe what GW worries about. If they produced starter sets for more armies would they just be sold in similar fashion to AOBR hurting sales of the specialised box sets, I don't know but it could be a factor?


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## Overbear (May 10, 2011)

As I said before in another thread, all this 'finecast' thing has done, is driven me to ebay older metal figures. GW has lost my support money, I will still play the game, I will still go down to the GW store and play on the tables with my friends...but my money will not be spent in the store again until said time GW rethinks this new "direction".


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## PsychoXeno (Jun 23, 2008)

This rant is about the starting up debate.

{walloftext}
I know for me when I started I read all the codex's to see which army rule-set I liked the most. All of my friends had been playing for years, they had their armies. They did not want to halvesies with me nor did I want either one of the only two in the box. So my starting set-up after I scrimped and saved for several months was a $19 codex, a $90 Necron Battleforce, a $15 Lord and a $22 Spyder. I had to buy the spare starter mini-rulebook and templates off a friend for $20 as well. This new hobby started out costing me $166. If I had went all out buying the actual rulebook and templates at the store it would have cost me $230! That's to play with plastic space robots that I still have to invest time in to put together and paint.

Now if you tell me that in order to get started in 40k I had to buy a $100 AoBR you would be flat lying to me because its not me and one other person starting. Its most of the time one person starting to join their friends. My nephew started well after I did. Granted all he had to do was get his parents to buy a defiler, a couple squads, a present HQ from me and buying half a AoBR from a friend of mine who wanted Orks and he was set up. Thing is no one helped me, a grown ass man, buy shit. I had to save money _and not play_ until I got the cash. I don't have the best job in the world. I have a mortgage, bills and other expenses. On the days I'm not drudging away at work I want to play games with my friends. Starting a hobby isn't cheap, but its ridiculous that in order to maintain it I should have to pay $25 or more for a few ounces of plastic _which is one model._ A hobby should be an impulse buy, not whether or not I should eat today. Of course no one is forcing me to buy. But in the back of your head you are forcing yourself to buy. You want to field a formidable unit. You want to field a formidable ARMY. That's what this game is about. WAR. Its getting the hypothetical thrill of sci-fi battles. Its almost roleplaying game, it feeds off the natural rivalries between people.

Some might say, "This hobby isn't for you. People who will pay for quality get this game." TBH I find that fairly class biased. It boils down to, "poor people don't deserve to play this game." Which brings me to another point I'd like to make. MANY GW FANS ARE SNOBS. Granted we are all proud of our armies, the rules, and the game in general. It is top quality work. But all I literally hear from the section of friends that don't play GW games is that the playerbase is full of snobs. Be it full of rich kids or older people that don't want to pay any mind to the beginner. One of my friends had tried to get into the game long ago. It was bad enough that he didn't have any friends that wanted into it (put off by the price) and could barely afford a squad and HQ but when he tried to talk to anyone other than an GW employee they blew him off or used general "n00b" comments. Not just one time he went to a GW store, but every time he went to a GW store and tried to talk to players. Without players to play or ask advice and high prices he gave up. Why invest in a hobby that will not bring you good times in any foreseeable time-frame? 

This is where most of the people that start playing stop when they are on their own. They see the big price tag and potentially basement dweller fanbase and walk away. If they didn't want a great game they wouldn't have come to a GW store. What I'm trying to say here is that a quality product doesn't need to cost an arm and a leg. As loyal consumers I think we deserve more friendly prices from a company that can churn out sprue's of plastic for pennies. Markup, over markup, over markup drives consumers away. 

All in all, we are paying big money for several ounces of plastic. We spend it for the love of the hobby but its just getting too ridiculously expensive. I've been thinking about Warmachine which several of my friends have already picked up. Looking at their prices and number of models needed for a good game I feel a bit more comfortable with switching until I get a Codex update or enough money to buy more into the 40k. (Sorry, $75 for three models just to fill out one unit of Heavy Destroyers *almostwasteofpoints* is too high just to try and get 3 good shots at enemy armor.) Problem is I have to start a new game, good news is it will cost substantially less.
{/walloftext}

Long in short:
Single army starters sound amazing.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> If and when a drop in price becomes a financial possibility, that's when we can make a real argument for it. In the middle of a financial crisis that is still giving Europe and the US a kicking? Not a chance.
> 
> GFP


I think the discussion has perhaps moved beyond this; from financial possibility to a financial imperative. You can't ignore the market. Just because GW need to charge more to continue to keep their share price up, does not mean the competition have to. GW is not operating in isolation anymore.

Somewhere to hang out and play WFB/WH40k etc.? Open your eyes, independent retailers are offering this, and at the same time they don't mind if your mates that play Warmachine want to come along and show off their models etc.

Even FFG, which have access to a lot of GW IP are starting to compete on miniature battle games. The difference being that FFG also produce and create many different game experiences in a way that GW used to but no longer does (I'm looking at the boxed sets of Space Marine, Battle for Armageddon, Dark Future, Space Hulk(x3) and Space Crusade on my shelf, for example).


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Maidel said:


> GW marketing DOESNT work in the US - its fine and dandy in the UK where there simply is no competition. Thus, if GW can make some additional income of the boxes sold abroad, then so be it.


Maybe this is why I get so confuse then. I didnt really considered that. Its actaully like a jigsaw puzzle that was just assembled for me.:laugh:


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Maybe this is why I get so confuse then. I didnt really considered that. Its actaully like a jigsaw puzzle that was just assembled for me.:laugh:


It's scary when you realise the world doesn't revolve around you


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Warlock in Training said:


> Maybe this is why I get so confuse then. I didnt really considered that. Its actaully like a jigsaw puzzle that was just assembled for me.:laugh:


Yeah, to completely understand the whole frustrations you have to take into account that to GW, the whole world works exactly like the UK. Sometimes I think people a GW's management wear Pith Helmets and go:

"By Jove, I can't understand why these savages in the colonies won't go into our fine trading posts!"

"Truly, dear Mark, truly, they should flock to our Modern World Marvels".

*smokes pipe while wondering how much they could upmark Miniatures by having them carved in Ivory*

Phil


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

tu_shan82 said:


> Hate to break it to you B+K but if anything is a joke, it's the static, one guy is exactly the same as the next guy, two dimensionally posed miniatures that come in GW starter sets that you reckon are great value, and in the eyes of anyone who's honest with themselves are no where near as good looking as the stuff PP puts out. :biggrin:


You should go have a look at the AoBR models. They are not static like the old ones.

I agree on a starter box like AoBR for all the armies. The battalion boxes should be scrapped and rethought, they are horrid for most races anyways.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Screw ivory, we've been looking into pure diamond models. They are a bugger to convert, but impossible to break.


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

> Screw ivory, we've been looking into pure diamond models. They are a bugger to convert, but impossible to break.


Yeah, but they don't have that milky-white sheen I so love!


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Yes, they're actually looking into a starter set with ivory Space Marines (The Galactic Pachydermus) and onyx Orks (Klan Bula Bula). Not too sure why, but the kit includes a Sextant. It will be 100 pounds in to UK and 465 937$AU or $CDN.

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> Yes, they're actually looking into a starter set with ivory Space Marines (The Galactic Pachydermus) and onyx Orks (Klan Bula Bula). Not too sure why, but the kit includes a Sextant. It will be 100 pounds in to UK and 465 937 or .
> 
> Phil


I think you missed a zero off the canadian price. :laugh:


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> You seem to have missed his point (on top of making some biases points). It's not how many models you get but its the cost of starting the game. The fact that it only costs people 50 dollars to start one game compared to 120 dollars to start another game. He is not saying one is better then the other but what he is saying is gw should make a starter pack that is cheaper so it's easier for people to start 40k. Cause 120 dollars now scares customers away, its a bit to much to start. Is it a good value? Yes it is but its still costs a lot to start. So maybe if GW did a starter pack that cost say 75 dollars and only included one army, that would be more appealing to customers.


Have I? Converting your Canadian $75 into pound sterling, it comes out at about £46, which is simply unfeasible given all the costs involved in shipping Black Reach to Canada. Secondly which game is only $50 to start? Warmachine doesn't have a starter pack, you have to buy two boxes, which given a difference of only $20 now seems somewhat more expensive given how many less models you're getting.



AlexHolker said:


> You are wrong for a number of reasons:
> - You're mistaking a lack of agreement for a lack of understanding. He knows how Games Workshop does business.
> - You could just as accurately say that GW doesn't understand what the Canadian market is like, if they insist on doing things the "British" way. Given that they're talking about how GW does business _in Canada_, I think that's rather more important.
> - Online retailers aren't the enemy, they are GW's _clients_, helping them distribute GWs product and thereby getting GW more money.
> ...


Because 'everyone' wants what he wants, cheaper products. Given what I said about the British way of doing business, namely crush your competitors, I'd be surprised if the Canadian school of business held that you should all run along and play nice. In any event it doesn't matter even if that is the case, because GW have to implement a general policy, rather than acting on a case by case basis. This means dealing tough with all competitors, including online retailers, as they are competiting with sales from Canadian GW stores



Katie Drake said:


> It isn't about value, though. The fact is that a lot of people are put off the hobby by the entry price. If it cost like... $70 to start, then I bet you'd have a lot more people willing to give the hobby a go.


So you'd rather have a poorer starting set. For that much money (which is less than fifty quid after conversion) you'd be lucky if you got anything more than an HQ and a Troops choice for each side. Sorry but one of the things I liked about Black Reach was that it threw in Elites and Fast Attack as well and in a niche hobby like ours I'm willing to bet that the varied armies found in Black Reach attract more interest.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

The Sullen One said:


> Have I? Converting your Canadian $75 into pound sterling, it comes out at about £46, which is simply unfeasible given all the costs involved in shipping Black Reach to Canada. Secondly which game is only $50 to start? Warmachine doesn't have a starter pack, you have to buy two boxes, which given a difference of only $20 now seems somewhat more expensive given how many less models you're getting.
> 
> 
> > Well shipping something from the states to Canada doesn't cost much. It should really cost as much as it would to ship from one state to another, thanks to the free trade agreement between Canada and the USA. As they only have to ship it from the states to Canada. Even so why the hell was everyone buying from an online store instead of there local gw? Even with shipping it was still cheaper. If you remove the Orks or the Marines from the AOBR, you shold be able to sell it for $75.
> ...


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Necrosis said:


> Also what do you call this: http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/cygnar/warcasters/cygnar-plastic-battlegroup
> 
> .


It gives you FOUR models. Sure they are slightly bigger than GW models - but FOUR models.

And you compare it to AoBR?


And, just to address something else. Everyone keeps going ON AND ON about how expensive it is to have a complete army for 40K and how cheap it is for other games.

Who in HELL said that a 'complete' army is 1500pts? Whats wrong with playing skrimish games at 500pts? Thats a hell of a lot cheaper and EVERYONE can play that, including people with many more models and those just starting.

I cant believe people fall for it when other companies say 'you need lots less models to play our games' which is utter crap because army size is as big or small as you and your opponent want them to be.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Maidel said:


> It gives you FOUR models. Sure they are slightly bigger than GW models - but FOUR models.
> 
> And you compare it to AoBR?


Once again all these points have been made. Were just going in a circle. The argument isn't about the value but the amount it starts to cost. 120 verse 50. Yes AoBR is awesome but when a customer see the 120 price tag on it, it scares them away, thus they might just buy a warmachine or something else (or hell nothing at all).


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Necrosis said:


> Once again all these points have been made. Were just going in a circle. The argument isn't about the value but the amount it starts to cost. 120 verse 50. Yes AoBR is awesome but when a customer see the 120 price tag on it, it scares them away, thus they might just buy a warmachine or something else (or hell nothing at all).


The thing is - I dont think people see AoBR as 'the starter set'.

I would put good money on it that 99% of people bought something OTHER than AoBR as their first kit.

Why do I say that. Well, personal experiance.

When I worked in GW almost everyone new who came through the door was comming for 1 of two reasons - either they had a friend who played the game and wanted to join in, or they were a parent looking for a present for their child.


So - where does that leave AoBR. Well GW offers as fully 'training' scheme for new gamers - what do you need to start? A single unit of troops.

So - what were almost all 'new' gamers first purchases - a single unit of troops, plastic glue, a paint brush and a couple of paints. Almost without fail.

A parent comming in to buy a present for a child fell into one of two categories - either they came in with a list and bought a sh*t load of stuff to order, or they bought the AoBR because 'dad' was going to play it with his son.

AoBR is NOT a 'walk in on a chance' purchase - it was almost always a christmtas or birthday present.


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Maidel said:


> The thing is - I dont think people see AoBR as 'the starter set'.
> 
> I would put good money on it that 99% of people bought something OTHER than AoBR as their first kit.
> 
> ...


That's actually a pretty astute point. Thinking back, my first ever purchase was a painting starter kit that came with 5 marines and I also bought a copy of white dwarf. I knew one guy who played and I wanted to start my army but couldn't afford to buy loads because I was like 12 or something.

My mate leant me some of his marines so we could play a few battles and then I saved up like buggery to buy the 2nd edition starter box, 'assault on cardboard ork dreadnought' or whatever it was called.

The paint sets would actually make fantastic starter sets if they could package one for every race and chuck in some kill teams rules. We might even hit the magical $75 mark with something like that.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

To be honest, at 500pts GW rules are not pretty fun. Having a HQ and 2 units of SM (any flavor) get pretty old pretty fast. In that regards, AoBR is a great starter set because it has some diversity. The main problem lies in the fact that it combines SM and Orks. While the first is pretty commonly played, the second not so much.

I think the idea of better and a bit cheaper battleforces would be great. Make a box that combines the AoBR SM components, the SM battleforce, the AoBR rulebook and templates and a booklet with the rules part of the SM codex. Make that 180$ Canadian and you've got yourself a great starter that would lure players in...

But we're getting far from the point that Canadian price are stupidly high. A SM Battleforce is 150$ (taxes incl) compared to 90$CDN (EDIT:sorry I've put pounds) (VAT incl.) if I order from Maelstrom (_delivery to my door included_). That's an unexplainable 66% higher. Oh, and before people go around and check, average income in Canada is about 31000$CDN (18 800 pounds) http://www40.statcan.ca/l02/cst01/famil21a-fra.htm , compared to 22800 pounds in the UK http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_Kingdom . And importation fees are not that high, or we'd never buy anything made in China.

Heck, most things are 20% more expensive than in the states. I wrote GW Canada (when it existed) a few years ago, and they told me it was because of our low dollar. Guess what, parity for a few years didn't help...

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Yea - canada (and new zealand) dont have the massive high average wage of australia - and basically - it sucks to be you.

And there is nothing wrong with 500pt army lists, even 750/1000pts to give some variation - it still doesnt HAVE to be 1500pts.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Maidel said:


> And there is nothing wrong with 500pt army lists,


Methinks you should play 500 point games for a couple years and then come back and say that.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> The Sullen One said:
> 
> 
> > Have I? Converting your Canadian $75 into pound sterling, it comes out at about £46, which is simply unfeasible given all the costs involved in shipping Black Reach to Canada. Secondly which game is only $50 to start? Warmachine doesn't have a starter pack, you have to buy two boxes, which given a difference of only $20 now seems somewhat more expensive given how many less models you're getting.
> ...


Well it's a nice battlegroup, with nice models, but it doesn't count as a starter set, because you still need to buy something else in order to play.





Necrosis said:


> Once again your assuming. If they removed the orks or space marines and drop the price, it would generate more sales. You like your AoBR, fine. But there should be a starter pack that is cheaper, like something is half an AoBR. Hell keep both choices, so you could buy one for marines or one for Orks at a cheaper cost then a whole AoBR. They would come with everything AoBR has except the other army.


Well at it's current Canadian price, AoBR is 20 dollars more expensive in Canada than here in blighty. Now I'm not sure what you want in these cheaper starter packs, perhaps an HQ, Elites and Troops choice, but why would GW make something like that when they do the battleforces? Sets that in most cases, provide both variety and the ability to start playing fairly quickly. If your new starter sets came into being, the battleforces would disapear and then the forums would be inundated with people complaining about how GW were trying to squezze money out of them by making smaller starting sets and so on.

Sound familiar? Whatever GW decide to do, people are going to complain. They're in a no-win situation whatever they do and first and foremost, and as a public limited company, there first duty is to their shareholders, not us.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Maidel said:


> And there is nothing wrong with 500pt army lists, even 750/1000pts to give some variation - it still doesnt HAVE to be 1500pts.


No, really, I find 40k doesn't scale well. A random event can lopside the game. A single leman russ shot kills off half a marine army. You can't use most of the interesting HQs (like librairians), etc... I mean, it's not _bad_, but, like I said, it gets old pretty fast.

But even then, if you've got 1500-2000pts of models to pick from to make your 500pts, it's viable. But playing and replaying the same 500pts of models (because we were talking new players a few post ago) is really not fun for more than a few games.

Phil


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

The Sullen One said:


> Well it's a nice battlegroup, with nice models, but it doesn't count as a starter set, because you still need to buy something else in order to play.


Like what, dice? It comes with rules, both game rules and the unit rules. If your making an argument, support your points by saying what's it missing.




> Well at it's current Canadian price, AoBR is 20 dollars more expensive in Canada than here in blighty. Now I'm not sure what you want in these cheaper starter packs, perhaps an HQ, Elites and Troops choice, but why would GW make something like that when they do the battleforces? Sets that in most cases, provide both variety and the ability to start playing fairly quickly. If your new starter sets came into being, the battleforces would disapear and then the forums would be inundated with people complaining about how GW were trying to squezze money out of them by making smaller starting sets and so on.
> 
> Sound familiar? Whatever GW decide to do, people are going to complain. They're in a no-win situation whatever they do and first and foremost, and as a public limited company, there first duty is to their shareholders, not us.


It's not about people complaining, it's about getting people into the game. A battleforce would be different, first of all it comes with different models and better quality models (as AoBR models are limited in poses and weapon upgrades). Yet these points are all mute due to Maidel argument, which is people just buy a troop choice first (or an HQ).


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

The Sullen One said:


> Well at it's current Canadian price, AoBR is 20 dollars more expensive in Canada than here in blighty.


The way I see it, I could, 2 weeks ago, get AoBR for 95$ delivered. Now, I must go to my local store and pay 136$. That's 43% more...

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> No, really, I find 40k doesn't scale well. A random event can lopside the game. A single leman russ shot kills off half a marine army.


But that happens in any game - a lucky shot takes out that 250pt HQ or tank - sure its not AS extreme - but its not far off.

And if you let a single leman russ take out your entire 10man tactical squad - well you have learnt an important tactical lesson for next time.



> You can't use most of the interesting HQs (like librairians), etc... I mean, it's not _bad_, but, like I said, it gets old pretty fast.


Erm - why? They are the same price as captain and there is no restrictions on taking them as your single HQ (unless Ive really missed something!)



> But even then, if you've got 1500-2000pts of models to pick from to make your 500pts, it's viable. But playing and replaying the same 500pts of models (because we were talking new players a few post ago) is really not fun for more than a few games.


But how is it fun playing the same 'small' army in warmachine?

And for the record in 500 points - I can get a librarian, two ten man tactical squads and a razorback. Or a captain, 2 5 man tactical squads and a terminator squad.

I could go on - there are a HELL of a lot of combinations of 500 point marine armies. And I am saying a FIXED 500 point army - not a 1500 point army and pick 500 points from it.

I simply dont understand how thats any less fun than the same size army in warmachine.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> The way I see it, I could, 2 weeks ago, get AoBR for 95$ delivered. Now, I must go to my local store and pay 136$. That's 43% more...
> 
> Phil


You can still order it from GW...


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Maidel said:


> You can still order it from GW...


Well, I'd get it delivered, but I still pay 43% more...

As for Warmachine/Hordes, I wouldn't play because I don't like the aesthetics, but I hope they designed their syster around smaller model count (ie, maybe more "wounds" on all models).

Maybe, once again, it's a cultural thing, but I find that 500pts games are all the same. A few pot shots, a few lucky/unlucky rolls and one side is down 40-50%. It lacks the whole cinematic feel of a 1500-2000pts games where one side of the board mught go badly, but you manage to bring back units from the other side, etc... Like I said, not horrible, but it gets tiresome. At 1000pts, you start using all those interactions/synergy that makes 40k a great game.

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> Well, I'd get it delivered, but I still pay 43% more...
> 
> As for Warmachine/Hordes, I wouldn't play because I don't like the aesthetics, but I hope they designed their syster around smaller model count (ie, maybe more "wounds" on all models).
> 
> ...


No - thats all fair enough. My preferance is for 2000+ pt games - always has, always will be (not apoc!) no silly baneblades, just LOTS of troops on a big board.

But I also like 500pt games - ones that dont take 5hours...

But my point still stands - 40K is a perfectly viable game at lower points values - and cheaper like that.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> Like what, dice? It comes with rules, both game rules and the unit rules. If your making an argument, support your points by saying what's it missing.


Okay, dice, templates, oh and something to play against! If you want something to play against with Warmachine, or Hordes for that matter, then you need to buy another battlebox. With AoBR, you get everything you need in one box, meaning that, if nothing else, you can always use the models to help you learn the aspects of the game.




Necrosis said:


> It's not about people complaining, it's about getting people into the game. A battleforce would be different, first of all it comes with different models and better quality models (as AoBR models are limited in poses and weapon upgrades). Yet these points are all mute due to Maidel argument, which is people just buy a troop choice first (or an HQ).


Four points in response to this: First, people are going to find easier to get into this game if they have someone to play against, someone they can learn the game with. Consequently a starter set that caters for two players is a better choice for people looking to get into the game. 

Second, the models themselves are quite convertable, though admittedly you need to invest somewhat in bits. I've converted a lot of the Ork models from AoBR, admittedly minor conversions, but it's still possible.

Third, a starter set intended for two players, with two different armies, provides the possiblity of getting some of your money back by selling the unwanted models on Ebay or a similar site. I've bought a lot of my Orks this way. With starter sets that only include one army, you don't have this option and either you find someone else who's bought a starter set, or you end up buying another so someone can play the game with you.

Finally, I'll agree that most people start off by getting an HQ or troops choice, but a fair number of people are buying entire armies in one go, either from Ebay and similar sites or from mates. I paid a mate's wife £50 for my first two thousand points of Orks, then sold them off about a year later for £130 on Ebay. Given that, and the point above I made about conversions, it makes sense to market bigger starting sets.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Maidel said:


> But my point still stands - 40K is a perfectly viable game at lower points values - and cheaper like that.


There's nothing viable about auto-losing in certain matchups because you can't take all the tools you require to take all comers. I'm sorry, 40K doesn't do small games well.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> There's nothing viable about auto-losing in certain matchups because you can't take all the tools you require to take all comers. I'm sorry, 40K doesn't do small games well.


I'm sorry, poor army selection does not mean the game is broken at 500pts.

At 1000pts there is no excuse. My point was, why do people bang on and on about 1500pts? It's just force of habbit and GW trying to sell us more models.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Just done the maths and for the price of 2 warmachine starter sets which is 8-9 models some stat cards and and 2 copys of the free abridged rule set you can buy ,assault on black reach which has 50 models,112 rule book(full rule set) 33 page start up book ,templates,measuring stick and dice.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Ouch.

Sorry, who said GW was expensive?


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

I don't think Warmachines/Hordes is the best comparisons, though. People will just skip miniatuer wargaming altogether if they find GW too expensive (at least, that's what my friends did).

Phil


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

The Sullen One said:


> Okay, dice, templates, oh and something to play against! If you want something to play against with Warmachine, or Hordes for that matter, then you need to buy another battlebox. With AoBR, you get everything you need in one box, meaning that, if nothing else, you can always use the models to help you learn the aspects of the game.


Really dice and templates? That your point? Most people already have dice and templates, if not most stores will let you borrow one (oh wait warmachine has a print out of the templates which you can get for free). In warmachine you only need 3 dice, 3!. If you want something to play against you do what everyone else does and find another player. Simply as that. You can keep saying they don't have this and this but when you go to a friendly game store, you ask a person to play a game they will have a game if you just have that starter pack. If you want I can say the 40k starter set doesn't have enough dice and it's measuring sticks are to short. Oh and if I really want to be annoying they don't give you a table or terrain to use. That's the same type of logic you are using.




The Sullen One said:


> Four points in response to this: First, people are going to find easier to get into this game if they have someone to play against, someone they can learn the game with. Consequently a starter set that caters for two players is a better choice for people looking to get into the game.
> 
> Second, the models themselves are quite convertable, though admittedly you need to invest somewhat in bits. I've converted a lot of the Ork models from AoBR, admittedly minor conversions, but it's still possible.
> 
> ...


Were talking about that new person who want's to get into the game, not the veteran. Majority of new people don't use ebay, so your entire point about that is mute. All your other points have already previously been made by bit and kits which I already argued. It's the price tag that is the problem, not what you get, not the value. All your doing is taking his argument and repeating it. Why don't you go back and look at all the points that he made and all the counter points I made. Cause all your doing is repeating what he said and I don't feel like saying the same thing I said before. I feel like I'm in a time loop.

Having someone to play against? Really that your point? You have an entire store of people to play against. Yes an entire store, people are willing to teach you how to play and to play against you.

Your point of conversion, does not even help your point. Anything can be converted. I can take a lump of green stuff and create a model out of it. The point is these models are still sub standard and many people don't like them. Some people do but lots of people don't.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> Just done the maths and for the price of 2 warmachine starter sets which is 8-9 models some stat cards and and 2 copys of the free abridged rule set you can buy ,assault on black reach which has 50 models,112 rule book(full rule set) 33 page start up book ,templates,measuring stick and dice.


Okay, next time, write down your math. Like this:
AoBR: 120
Warmachine Battlegroup: 50 dollars
Difference for 20 dollars.

Also you once again missed the point, its the cost of starting. Which is 50 compared to 120.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

boreas said:


> I don't think Warmachines/Hordes is the best comparisons, though. People will just skip miniatuer wargaming altogether if they find GW too expensive (at least, that's what my friends did).
> 
> Phil


well the dude in the video was singing its praises and was stood infront of the PP range in his "letter" so it makes sense to point out that technically its cheaper to start warmachine if your happy playing yourself which i personally think negates the term starter set and you get considerably less in the box, i actually think if GW only put the marines in the box for £60 it would still be better value than the warmachine starter set.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> Okay, next time, write down your math. Like this:
> AoBR: 120
> Warmachine Battlegroup: 50 dollars
> Difference for 20 dollars.
> ...


why would i do that, i dont buy things in dollars

and you missed the point that you cant play the game on your own two people have to have started to play the game.they may not have to know each other, they may not have started at the same time, but two people with a starter set each is the minium requirement for a game.
starter sets are £30 ish each x2 = £60
AOBR = £60 ish
model count and contents of AOBR are vastly better value

and for the record im been generous with the discounted warmachine prices and using full rrp for GW


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> why would i do that, i dont buy things in dollars
> 
> and you missed the point that you cant play the game on your own two people have to have started to play the game.they may not have to know each other, they may not have started at the same time, but two people with a starter set each is the minium requirement for a game.
> starter sets are £30 ish each x2 = £60
> ...


It's not a question of value (lost count the number I have said that), is a question of starting. It's not the cost of two people starting, its the cost of one person looking to start, cause most people who play the game never come in pairs or groups, they always come in ones. Also using ish, is a bad way of doing math. You can do tall sorts of math but when your customer comes in, he going to see 120 verse 50. Simply as that, all your math is not going to change that fact.

That being said, Maidel argument is still true, most people will start off by buying a single troop choice or HQ. Which is a valid point that I cannot argue. If you do argue Maidel point then yes my argument falls apart.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Bits, *nobody* is disagreeing AOBR is good value. The problem is that if someone walks into a store with those 30 pounds and says "that looks fun, can I play?" the answer is "Well, I've got my army here. We can set you up to play Warmachines for 30, but if you want to play 40K you'll need to either buy a BattleForce that costs 60 pounds or spend those 60 pounds on AOBR and we'll throw in a second army you don't need."

Yes, in the 30 pounds that is half of AOBR you get vastly more models and ones that are better quality than the 30 pound starter set of Warmachines. The difference - the VAST difference - is that for 40K, having 30 pounds won't allow you to PLAY.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> It's not a question of value (lost count the number I have said that), is a question of starting. It's not the cost of two people starting, its the cost of one person looking to start, cause most people who play the game never come in pairs or groups, they always come in ones. Also using ish, is a bad way of doing math. You can do tall sorts of math but when your customer comes in, he going to see 120 verse 50. Simply as that, all your math is not going to change that fact.


but you cant play warmachine on your own, two people must play the game, so you can do the maths two ways , if you want to do it for one person its costs £35 for a warmachine battle group, or £30.75 for half a set of AOBR, neither game can be played alone because they are a two player game, so the cost of starting must be doubled because two people have to have started otherwise no body is getting a game, so therefore warmachine players would need to have spent £70 for two players to play a game with 9 models and cut down rules or £61.50 for two players to get AOBR.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Shandathe said:


> Yes, in the 30 pounds that is half of AOBR you get vastly more models and ones that are better quality than the 30 pound starter set of Warmachines. The difference - the VAST difference - is that for 40K, having 30 pounds won't allow you to PLAY.


but £30 of warmachine wont allow you to play either, who are you playing? your opponent will have had to fork out money too.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> but you cant play warmachine on your own, two people must play the game, so you can do the maths two ways , if you want to do it for one person its costs £35 for a warmachine battle group, or £30.75 for half a set of AOBR, neither game can be played alone because they are a two player game, so the cost of starting must be doubled because two people have to have started otherwise no body is getting a game, so therefore warmachine players would need to have spent £70 for two players to play a game with 9 models and cut down rules or £61.50 for two players to get AOBR.


Once again you've missed the point. Your thinking of it from all seeing point of view. Which doesn't work. You need to see it from a customer point of view. When I go to my local friendly game store there are already people playing warmachine and 40k. I go in there and I see the two starter sets. One is 120 and the other is 50 dollars. Either one I buy I still have some one to play against. So if I have 80 dollars I will start warmachine, simply because the 40k starter set is to expensive.


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Necrosis said:


> Once again you've missed the point. Your thinking of it from all seeing point of view. Which doesn't work. You need to see it from a customer point of view. When I go to my local friendly game store there are already people playing warmachine and 40k. I go in there and I see the two starter sets. One is 120 and the other is 50 dollars. Either one I buy I still have some one to play against. So if I have 80 dollars I will start warmachine, simply because the 40k starter set is to expensive.


But are people wandering into games shops alone and just buying an army to play with random people?

My introduction to wargaming came through heroquest, and I started 40k with a friend around the same time. I honestly don't know if this puts me in the minority or the majority, but I doubt I would have ever walked into a games shop alone and just decided to pick up a starter set so i could play against some people I didn't know very well.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Varakir said:


> But are people wandering into games shops alone and just buying an army to play with random people?


To be honest, yes. That how I started 40k and that's how most people that I know started 40k. In fact this is what I usually see.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Or not so random people. One person in my group of friends got drawn into the hobby by a friend. This drew in another friend, and the fact that I had two people who felt it was fun - and were willing to play me - drew me in.

And yes, my decision in turn influenced another friend or two. 

The point, of course, is that this chain means there was always at least one person who already HAD an army.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> Really dice and templates? That your point? Most people already have dice and templates, if not most stores will let you borrow one (oh wait warmachine has a print out of the templates which you can get for free). In warmachine you only need 3 dice, 3!. If you want something to play against you do what everyone else does and find another player. Simply as that. You can keep saying they don't have this and this but when you go to a friendly game store, you ask a person to play a game they will have a game if you just have that starter pack. If you want I can say the 40k starter set doesn't have enough dice and it's measuring sticks are to short. Oh and if I really want to be annoying they don't give you a table or terrain to use. That's the same type of logic you are using.
> 
> We're talking about that new person who want's to get into the game, not the veteran. Majority of new people don't use ebay, so your entire point about that is mute. All your other points have already previously been made by bit and kits which I already argued. It's the price tag that is the problem, not what you get, not the value. All your doing is taking his argument and repeating it. Why don't you go back and look at all the points that he made and all the counter points I made. Cause all your doing is repeating what he said and I don't feel like saying the same thing I said before. I feel like I'm in a time loop.
> 
> ...


You and I are talking at cross purposes and in a completely different context. Clearly for you, there is ample time to buy a starter set, build it and then play a game or two within the space of a day. There's also a store where you aren't going to get crowded out by veterans/hordes of feral kids, not to mention finding someone who plays the same system you do and is willing to teach you the finer points of the game.

Now I get the impression from a lot of the Canadians and Americans on here that there are plenty of clubs, stores and little old grannies with sheds and apple pie where you can play games. For most of us in blighty though, it's a mate's house or GW and given the aforementioned veterans/hordes of feral kids, GWs ain't always avaliable. Therefore you're left with the mate(s) and the common decision as to what to play, so it's an easier choice to go for a game where the starter set is geared for two.

As for sub-standard models, to what are you referring? The AoBR models are outstanding, each one providing a nice amount of detail despite the smaller number of parts. Conversions on the other hand, are as good as the person who makes them. 

On a completely seperate point do the prices on GW's website for Canada and the States include sales tax as part of the price or is that added on afterwards.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

No im seeing it from the customers eyes, as a customer i would go into a shop and look at the contents and if i saw 4 models for £35 or 50 for for £61.50 i would stump up the cash for the better value product or come back when i could afford it. I grant you some people would go for price which is fine,but the whole concept of starting a two player hobby by yourself seems ludicrous and maybe this is were GW is failing, In the UK alot of players get into the hobby by knowing someone whos in the hobby already or like me started with close friends, i dont know of anyone who got into the hobby by walking into a store alone and deciding to buy a starter set for a two player game by themselves, maybe its more common outside of the UK.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

The Sullen One said:


> You and I are talking at cross purposes and in a completely different context. Clearly for you, there is ample time to buy a starter set, build it and then play a game or two within the space of a day. There's also a store where you aren't going to get crowded out by veterans/hordes of feral kids, not to mention finding someone who plays the same system you do and is willing to teach you the finer points of the game.
> 
> Now I get the impression from a lot of the Canadians and Americans on here that there are plenty of clubs, stores and little old grannies with sheds and apple pie where you can play games. For most of us in blighty though, it's a mate's house or GW and given the aforementioned veterans/hordes of feral kids, GWs ain't always avaliable. Therefore you're left with the mate(s) and the common decision as to what to play, so it's an easier choice to go for a game where the starter set is geared for two.
> 
> ...


That's a fine point. Yet my argument still stands. GW is still losing that huge market due to them not target the region correctly. What you have effectively said is, well who cares about your country cause my counter we do it like this. As for AoBR models being sub standard, they don't have all the bits that regular marines and orks have. Like your tatical squad is stuck with a missile launcher and a flamer. your Ork nobs don't have power klaws. As for the sales tax, that should be cancelled out by our stronger Canadian dollar.


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Necrosis said:


> To be honest, yes. That how I started 40k and that's how most people that I know started 40k. In fact this is what I usually see.


Fair enough. When I started up my LGS was an all-round hobby store dealing in railways, planes, kit cars and the like. I guess if you have a store where they have tables to play and are more focused on the games, with friendly welcoming staff then that would be more likely. i still don't know if i would have walked in off the street on my own and got involved though.



Shandathe said:


> Or not so random people. One person in my group of friends got drawn into the hobby by a friend. This drew in another friend, and the fact that I had two people who felt it was fun - and were willing to play me - drew me in.


This is a lot more like my experience. My mate had the starter set and some marines, and then I got some marines and eventually a starter set too. At this point we had 4 'armies' so other friends could play as well and a few of them started up from there. They just got a codex and models though and we all used the rulebooks that i got with the starter set.



> As for sub-standard models, to what are you referring? The AoBR models are outstanding, each one providing a nice amount of detail despite the smaller number of parts. Conversions on the other hand, are as good as the person who makes them.


I think i was the first person to mention they were sub-standard, and all that was meant by that is they are below the standard of the proper kits. I think the AOBR models are amazing for the price.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Necrosis said:


> As for AoBR models being sub standard, they don't have all the bits that regular marines and orks have. Like your tatical squad is stuck with a missile launcher and a flamer. your Ork nobs don't have power klaws.


Likely due to the fact that AOBR is something of a standalone product that should allow people to play quickly (much like a deck of cards or a game of monopoly). The two armies as in the box are fairly balanced. Giving lots of options could potentially disrupt the balance and, more importantly, would force the new players to figure out how to create an army list first 

It's a good product and good value, but it's not necessarily a good starting point on an army of your own...


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> No im seeing it from the customers eyes, as a customer i would go into a shop and look at the contents and if i saw 4 models for £35 or 50 for for £61.50 i would stump up the cash for the better value product or come back when i could afford it. I grant you some people would go for price which is fine,but the whole concept of starting a two player hobby by yourself seems ludicrous and maybe this is were GW is failing, In the UK alot of players get into the hobby by knowing someone whos in the hobby already or like me started with close friends, i dont know of anyone who got into the hobby by walking into a store alone and deciding to buy a starter set for a two player game by themselves, maybe its more common outside of the UK.


No your not, once again you looking from a business prescriptive. I'm going to want to buy something that is fun, that I can play. Think of it like this, I got 200,000 to spend on a home. I see this nice awesome house for 500,000, well I can't afford it. I see this crappy apartment for $100,000. Sure the house is far better value but I don't have enough money, so I buy the crappy apartment.

Also you might think its ludicrous but it does happen. Maybe it's a North American thing but it still represents a large market. All it takes is a customer asks "Do people play this game here?". Employe response by "Ya, they come in on Tuesday (or whatever day)" He might then buy a set right there or come in on Tuesday night and watch a game or two and then buy a set.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> No your not, once again you looking from a business prescriptive. I'm going to want to buy something that is fun, that I can play. Think of it like this, I got 200,000 to spend on a home. I see this nice awesome house for 500,000, well I can't afford it. I see this crappy apartment for $100,000. Sure the house is far better value but I don't have enough money, so I buy the crappy apartment.


Well buying the crappy apartment is just defeatist, you had a budget of 200k, you might not be able to afford the 500k house but i wouldnt pay for a shitty 100k apartment, i would keep saving for something better or go buy a boat or a sports car, but as long as we agree that warmachine is the 100k shity apartment of the wargaming real estate world im happy.

We can bang on about this for weeks but you are never going to admit you are wrong because you firmly beleive that warmchine is the better value for money system, even when presented with the facts that its not, technically it is cheaper to start warmachine, but its only cheaper because you get far less in the box, i dont know the rules and the points costs for warmachine stuff but 4 models and a cut down rule book is cheaper than 50 models and full rule book i grant you and if you cant afford to play GW games warmachine is a cheaper game to start assuming you have someone with an army to play with, if however you are starting the game with a friend then GW AOBR is the cheaper and better value for money.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> Well buying the crappy apartment is just defeatist, you had a budget of 200k, you might not be able to afford the 500k house but i wouldnt pay for a shitty 100k apartment, i would keep saving for something better or go buy a boat or a sports car, but as long as we agree that warmachine is the 100k shity apartment of the wargaming real estate world im happy.
> 
> We can bang on about this for weeks but you are never going to admit you are wrong because you firmly beleive that warmchine is the better value for money system, even when presented with the facts that its not, technically it is cheaper to start warmachine, but its only cheaper because you get far less in the box, i dont know the rules and the points costs for warmachine stuff but 4 models and a cut down rule book is cheaper than 50 models and full rule book i grant you and if you cant afford to play GW games warmachine is a cheaper game to start assuming you have someone with an army to play with, if however you are starting the game with a friend then GW AOBR is the cheaper and better value for money.


I already admit I was wrong verse Maidel, he made an excellent point which destroyed my entire argument. I actually gave him rep from making such a good argument. Also once again I never said warmachine was a better value. My point was people would be turned off by the high price for AoBR. Now I can also say the same thing about you, that you will never admit you are wrong. Then again I though you didn't care and weren't taking this seriously. Yet you say you've done research and you keep posting her.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> but as long as we agree that warmachine is the 100k shity apartment of the wargaming real estate world im happy.


Well, look B&K, I understand you don't like Warmchine, and you know, that's ok... buuuut:






Meanwhile, whatever anyone's thoughts on the Video in question, and the guys ideas to change GWs business practices, everyone can at least agree that GW sucks at PR, and connecting with it's retailers and customer base. A certain amount of angst has always been felt, but there's a growing chorus of people who aren't just griping, but who are actively seeking out other options, and there are a lot more options today than were around even 5 years ago.

With the European embargo to Australia especially, I've had quite a few people at my local club saying that they aren't going to buy any more GW because of the effective 100% markup from the prices they could pay online. Now, I don't mind supporting bricks and mortar stores in the local area, but with GWs pricing not coming down at all, despite the huge rise in the Australian dollar is just stupid, as now they've effectively risen in price horribly against any other gaming option. For those who are going to keep buying GW in Australia, ordering Forgeworld stuff is now significantly cheaper than buying local retail, so people won't be using the damn bricks and mortar stores even if they DO plan to keep on buying stuff. 

At any rate, the point is that while a lot of people still love playing 40k, but they're sick of dealing with GW, and they've lost all brand loyalty to them. If they find another game that suits them, they'll be off like a shot.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> That's a fine point. Yet my argument still stands. GW is still losing that huge market due to them not target the region correctly. What you have effectively said is, well who cares about your country cause my counter we do it like this. As for AoBR models being sub standard, they don't have all the bits that regular marines and orks have. Like your tatical squad is stuck with a missile launcher and a flamer. your Ork nobs don't have power klaws. As for the sales tax, that should be cancelled out by our stronger Canadian dollar.


I haven't said "who cares about your country". Trust me mate, if I'd wanted to have a dig at Canada, then I would have had a dig at Canada. The point I was actually trying to make is that it's simpler where exports are concerned to have a general policy, since this reduces any logisitic confusion. The AoBR models aren't sub-standard just because they don't come with a variety of options. The larger models are easily convertible and compatible with GW's standard ranges, while for someone who is starting out and learning the game (which takes time, my first 1'500pt game took three hours), there is an advantage to having models with basic wargear. As for the sales tax, why would this be cancelled out by the Canadian Dollar? When I asked about sales taxes, I meant in-country taxes, levied by governments, that are similar to VAT over here.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Necrosis said:


> I already admit I was wrong verse Maidel, he made an excellent point which destroyed my entire argument. I actually gave him rep from making such a good argument. Also once again I never said warmachine was a better value. My point was people would be turned off by the high price for AoBR. Now I can also say the same thing about you, that you will never admit you are wrong. Then again I though you didn't care and weren't taking this seriously. Yet you say you've done research and you keep posting her.


well i figured it was obviously very important to you as you kept saying how cheap it is to get into warmachine so decided to take the thread a little more seriously as you suggested, thats the kinda open minded guy i am, i can see things from other peoples point of view, i dont just choose a stance and stick to it regardless of the fact presented before me, anyway that led me to reconsider my opinion and maybe something had changed with the system and the prices and it was now worth another look, so i did some research to see it was indeed cheaper to get into warmachine, and your right it is cheaper to start warmachine under certain circumstances,and those certain circumstances if im being honest are a little out of the ordinary from my understanding of how people start a hobby like wargaming.

You claim that people would be turned off by the price alone, without even giving any consideration that, for some people $120 or £61.50 is not alot of money to start a hobby or as a gift for a young teen,also side by side in a store "value for money" can be more important than price alone, popularity is a very important deciding factor (look at the i phone for example, plenty of better phones on the market, but it sells like hot cakes because its popular). 
Not to mention any store owner worth his salt would and should be pushing the more expensive product with more add on future sales and add to that the brand name of games workshop,also take into account longevity and security on your investment, i see a games workshop in every town and city so i know if i spend $120/£61.50 i will always be able to buy more stuff in the future for my army and have a place to play. 
Finally without putting too finer point on it i personally find many of the PP models a bit poor looking, warjacks with the odd exception look really ...awful, some of the infantry are quite nice but on the whole i think they are not as strong as the majority of 40k models,thats not to say everything GW produce is awesome, they have some big glaring cock ups too, but side by side i would choose GW minis every time.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Warmachine or not, that is pretty much besides the point. The whole point of the OP video is that GW stuff is 30-45% more expensive than in the UK, for no good reason. The average income is not 30-45% higher here. The cost of life is generally lower here. That pisses off players. Now, that was somehow mitigated by buying from the UK.

Now, combine that with frustrations because of rules (or often, lack of...), FAQ (or lack of...) and the guy has a good point: people in Canada are shifting away from GW, because they have the impression (which is real, IMO), that GW doens't want them as customers. 

So, when a company sends me this message: "Dear customer, we have a expensive product. If you want to buy them, fine, but don't expect us to do anything to have you or keep you because we don't care", they are lucky that I even send them back this message: "Dear GW, you have, despite its imperfections, a great product that I have come to love. But if you keep selling it 30-45% more here than in the UK, you can forget about me as a customer".

And that's because GW has no mini-wargaming competitor as of yet, because, I'd have slammed the door without even trying to talk to them. 

Now, I don't understand why people from the UK seem to argue that it's ok, or even desireable, for GW to charge more here. Maybe there's some kind of pride in a UK business and the impression that because it's from the UK you people should pay much less than people from the ROW. When my CDN$ was worth crap, GW was sure to let me know that this is why I paid more. Fine. But now that the situation has changed:

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=CAD&view=5Y

I just can't accept that they'll find excuses... And I'll applaud each and every action that is being made to bring this to their attention and/or to annoy them...

Phil


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

As opposed to... what, GW automatically collapsing to public opinion when they make a decision that people disagree with?

"We think Space Wolves are too powerful" - Hit with the nerf bat
"WOlves are now too weak" - Hit with the Phil Kelly Elf-bat
"Wolves are now too powerful" - hit with the Phil Kelly Dark Elf Bat
"Wolves are perfect now, BUT they're not as powerful as background suggests"... You'd be up and down like a blue arse fly, and you can't do anything about that, just have a load of whingers whinging.

Which is what this is, where people refute facts, or rather twist them round, or decide to not use intelligence, just to make their point.

Christ, we're not whoreseer, it's Heresy Online. Use your brains.

As for Starter sets? Only useful if you want to play those armies.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Christ, we're not whoreseer, it's Heresy Online. Use your brains.


A-bloody-men to that!


Anyway - isnt it Whineseer?


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Necrosis said:


> No your not, once again you looking from a business prescriptive. I'm going to want to buy something that is fun, that I can play. Think of it like this, I got 200,000 to spend on a home. I see this nice awesome house for 500,000, well I can't afford it. I see this crappy apartment for $100,000. Sure the house is far better value but I don't have enough money, so I buy the crappy apartment.
> 
> Also you might think its ludicrous but it does happen. Maybe it's a North American thing but it still represents a large market. All it takes is a customer asks "Do people play this game here?". Employe response by "Ya, they come in on Tuesday (or whatever day)" He might then buy a set right there or come in on Tuesday night and watch a game or two and then buy a set.


With all the forclosures lately, i bet i could get a pretty decent 4 bedroom house in the States in a liquidation sale for 200 large.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

boreas said:


> Now, I don't understand why people from the UK seem to argue that it's ok, or even desireable, for GW to charge more here. Maybe there's some kind of pride in a UK business and the impression that because it's from the UK you people should pay much less than people from the ROW. When my CDN$ was worth crap, GW was sure to let me know that this is why I paid more. Fine. But now that the situation has changed:
> 
> http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=CAD&view=5Y
> 
> ...


well to be fair phil, GW do have to ship the stuff to Canada and pay the import tax rate of 18% so i imagine that brits do have a case for paying less been as the models are produced in the same country, after conversion you guys are paying about £12.50 more for AOBR than we are, and considering the size and weight and taxes i dont think thats two bad.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> well to be fair phil, GW do have to ship the stuff to Canada and pay the import tax rate of 18% so i imagine that brits do have a case for paying less been as the models are produced in the same country, after conversion you guys are paying about £12.50 more for AOBR than we are, and considering the size and weight and taxes i dont think thats two bad.


You dont have to pay VAT on external sales - so with canadas VAT being something like 13% they should be only paying 5% more before shipping costs (with the cost of import taxes already included.

So Canada probably does have a 5% mark up on over all costs with the other additional price being import taxes and shipping costs.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

bitsandkits said:


> well to be fair phil, GW do have to ship the stuff to Canada and pay the import tax rate of 18% so i imagine that brits do have a case for paying less been as the models are produced in the same country, after conversion you guys are paying about £12.50 more for AOBR than we are, and considering the size and weight and taxes i dont think thats two bad.


Hum... an 18% import tax? That's the first I hear of that. I might be hitting the wrong nail here.

The way I calculate things, I used the GW UK price (that includes a 20% VAT IIRC) and compare it to the GW Canada price to which I include the local taxes (so I get an "after tax" amount in both case. Remember that shown prices in Canada never include taxes, a 12-15% amount that is added to the total when paying).

Now, if Canada charges 18% import taxes to GW when they actually ship products to GW Canada, that would go a long way in explaining the difference. 

Edit: Does GW produce models at the Memphis factory? If so, they could get around an 18% import tax, because goods produced in the US cannont be subject to an import tax AFAIK.

Phil


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

What I have noticed is that people buy what they will be more likely to play. I don't buy Warmachine or Hordes, even though I like the miniatures and would love to support someone other than GW, because everyone where I live plays 40k and Fantasy. I think it has very little to do with pricing or customer service on an individual basis. Can it affect decision making for a group? Yes, but a single person who doesn't like GW isn't going to turn away from the game if everyone else in their playgroup still want to play said GW game. They may not buy as much as they used to, but they are going to get into or stick with the game that they feel they will be able to play.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

boreas said:


> Hum... an 18% import tax? That's the first I hear of that. I might be hitting the wrong nail here.
> 
> The way I calculate things, I used the GW UK price (that includes a 20% VAT IIRC) and compare it to the GW Canada price to which I include the local taxes (so I get an "after tax" amount in both case. Remember that shown prices in Canada never include taxes, a 12-15% amount that is added to the total when paying).
> 
> ...


sorry i may have got it wrong,i think the 18% i quoted is for luxury items such as jewelry, but the import duty is somewere between 6 and 14% for non luxury, but without knowing the exact details of what GW declare its impossible to say accurately, but either way i believe as GW are not shipping it direct to you the customer, like say i would or wayland used to, but rather putting it in a depot or a store to sell to you they will have paid duty for the import, which has nothing to do with canadian VAT, its just what a company is charged from bringing products into a territory to sell on. that and the shipping costs are what makes the price higher, its basically a charge for crossing borders.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> Hum... an 18% import tax? That's the first I hear of that. I might be hitting the wrong nail here.
> 
> The way I calculate things, I used the GW UK price (that includes a 20% VAT IIRC) and compare it to the GW Canada price to which I include the local taxes (so I get an "after tax" amount in both case. Remember that shown prices in Canada never include taxes, a 12-15% amount that is added to the total when paying).
> 
> ...


No - since they closed the shanghi plant all models are made in the UK.

And it appears that canada has some bloody dodgy import taxes ranging from 0% to 18% or above (a brief search tells me it varies from province to province).


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> well i figured it was obviously very important to you as you kept saying how cheap it is to get into warmachine so decided to take the thread a little more seriously as you suggested, thats the kinda open minded guy i am, i can see things from other peoples point of view, i dont just choose a stance and stick to it regardless of the fact presented before me, anyway that led me to reconsider my opinion and maybe something had changed with the system and the prices and it was now worth another look, so i did some research to see it was indeed cheaper to get into warmachine, and your right it is cheaper to start warmachine under certain circumstances,and those certain circumstances if im being honest are a little out of the ordinary from my understanding of how people start a hobby like wargaming.


Mate, I can get a full 50point (equivalent to a 1750-2000 point level) tournament ready Protectorate of menoth army for $416, and that includes some more expensive (but points cheap) metal fodder units, and an epic caster, and doesn't include buying the cheap starter set. It's the one I want. 36 guys, 2 heavy jacks, 2 light jacks. 

I could spend *quick calculations on GW website* $587 to get a basic marines army (commander/command squad, two tac squads, scout squad, 3 rhinos, a dreadnought and a speeder, which is what, a bit less than a thousand points? 36 guys, but with 5 vehicles (and the vehicles are significantly larger than Jacks, I'll give you that.... even though rhinos are ugly as hell).

With a discount store around here, I could probably get 10% off that price for GW, but I'm still looking at a pretty equivalent price for models (despite the fact privateer press has most of it's range still in metal), and with privateer presses game, you need less models to make up a full army, and that counts for a lot as well. The comparison is even worse, if you want a competitive WFB army these days, as you tend to need far more cheap fodder units.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Maidel said:


> No - since they closed the shanghi plant all models are made in the UK.
> 
> And it appears that canada has some bloody dodgy import taxes ranging from 0% to 18% or above (a brief search tells me it varies from province to province).


Well, that's an eye-opener... I'll have to look into that. So basically, I should look at it like that: Take the GW UK price. Take out the VAT (20%). Add a Canadian import tax (I'll put it at 15%). That should, technically give me the price that's on GW Canada. So:

AoBR: 61.5 pounds -> 49.2 pounds (without VAT) -> 58.06 pounds (incl. 18% import tax) -> 98.70$ (change to CDN$ @1.7 pounds/$).

The actual price is 118.75$, a 20% markup. Now, that's still a bit much, but let's say it's because they have to ship it to GW NA. Then, they have to take into account the fee to ship a few item across a country bigger than Europe (and they have to, because they don't want the GW-Canada website to undercut the physical store).

That is starting to make sense IF that 18% tax is actually applied (I have to do some research on that). But it also raises a question: is a 20% markup to insure a presence in brick-and-mortar shop really worth it? 

Phil


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

boreas said:


> Now, I don't understand why people from the UK seem to argue that it's ok, or even desireable, for GW to charge more here. Maybe there's some kind of pride in a UK business and the impression that because it's from the UK you people should pay much less than people from the ROW.


Who is doing this exactly? I haven't seen one person who is 'happy' that the rest of the world is paying more.

People are merely trying to debate the points that are being raised and attempting to identify a logic behind GW's stance. you say they are charging you 30%-45% more for no good reason, but why the hell would they do that? Whatever the reason is. it's not because they felt like it.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

20% markup? Here in Oz, we have a 76% markup (going by costs of deadnoughts). By taking away our access to British independents (which offered even steeper discounts), we're looking at paying about 100% more next week than we did last week.

Imagine paying £50 for a stock standard dreadnought.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

maddermax said:


> Mate, I can get a full 50point (equivalent to a 1750-2000 point level) tournament ready Protectorate of menoth army for $416, and that includes some more expensive (but points cheap) metal fodder units, and an epic caster, and doesn't include buying the cheap starter set. It's the one I want. 36 guys, 2 heavy jacks, 2 light jacks.
> 
> I could spend *quick calculations on GW website* $587 to get a basic marines army (commander/command squad, two tac squads, scout squad, 3 rhinos, a dreadnought and a speeder, which is what, a bit less than a thousand points? 36 guys, but with 5 vehicles (and the vehicles are significantly larger than Jacks, I'll give you that.... even though rhinos are ugly as hell).
> 
> With a discount store around here, I could probably get 10% off that price for GW, but I'm still looking at a pretty equivalent price for models (despite the fact privateer press has most of it's range still in metal), and with privateer presses game, you need less models to make up a full army, and that counts for a lot as well. The comparison is even worse, if you want a competitive WFB army these days, as you tend to need far more cheap fodder units.


thats cool Madder, but that would also mean you would be playing warmachine or should a say fauxhammer 40k


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

maddermax said:


> 20% markup? Here in Oz, we have a 76% markup (going by costs of deadnoughts). By taking away our access to british imports, we're looking at paying 100% more next week than we were last week.


And - as explained many times in many threads, Australia has double the average income of the UK - so its an exchange rate thing - if your average wage was comparable to ours then it wouldnt be 100% mark up - but seeing as your income is about an 80% mark up on ours, then it doesnt sound so bad.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Maidel said:


> And - as explained many times in many threads, Australia has double the average income of the UK - so its an exchange rate thing - if your average wage was comparable to ours then it wouldnt be 100% mark up - but seeing as your income is about an 80% mark up on ours, then it doesnt sound so bad.


Yes... but then again, you see, I can get a Warmachine box set from my LGS for about $50, direct from privateer press for about $50, or overseas from an independent for... about $50. I might get $5 cheaper at one place, or $10 more expensive if I want to go to the slightly closer shop (nice place, but tends to be a little more expensive, which I don't mind). Basically, all within 20% of each other, less when you take account of shipping. Same with most large miniature companies. GW has a 100% difference. That isn't to do with the differences in overheads, or the difference in real wages, it's to do with GW not lowering their prices despite the huge rise in the Australian dollar, but instead, they keep increasing the price here, even though the imported product should be significantly cheaper. Now, by suddenly shutting down the independents selling to Australia, we're getting slugged with the 100% increase all at once, which is a bit much for most people (especially those who had to be frugal anyway) to bear.



bitsandkits said:


> thats cool Madder, but that would also mean you would be playing warmachine or should a say fauxhammer 40k


*le sigh*. Did you not get the message before?





We get that you don't like Warmachine. But I like it, and there are a shiteload of other people out there who like it too. Now, I don't much like 8th ed fantasy myself, but I don't rag on it all the time, but I do understand and accept that there are quite a few people out there who DO like it. That's great for them, and I'm happy for them because they're playing a game they like, even if I don't like it. Your attitude towards Warmachine though? Thats not healthy. I can understand Fanboyism, but grow up a little, and accept that some people like different games, and yes, different types of models too. 

Stop thinking of it as Team GW vs. Team PP, we're all just gamers, trying to have some fun.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Well B&K is saying it in a slightly provocative way... but he has a point - if you dont like GWs prices, play something else (which it appears you already do).

The only way to get GW to reduce its prices is to make it not profitable to NOT reduce their prices.

I dont care what you play, I personally prefer 40K and I will (un)happily pay the increased price to continue playing it, and Im pretty certain lots of other people on both sides of the globe will do the same.


EDIT - and, just a thought, I dont consider myself a 'wargamer'. If GW died out over night, I wouldnt pick up another game, I would probably carry on buying stuff second hand off ebay for 40K - which is why I consider myself a '40Ker' if that works as a word, and not a wargammer. So you can maybe see why I dont consider other companies to be 'competition' for me, purely because unless another company produces '40K' figures, Im not interrested.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

bitsandkits said:


> thats cool Madder, but that would also mean you would be playing warmachine or should a say fauxhammer 40k


This would make sense if warmachine actually tries to copy WH (like other companies such as mantic). 

Yet it doesn't. The similarities between warhammer (or WH40k) and warmahordes basically end at:
- they are both miniature games
- they both use dice.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

maddermax said:


> Stop thinking of it as Team GW vs. Team PP, we're all just gamers, trying to have some fun.


Im not sure your getting how much i dislike whoremachine!!!, just kidding im genuinely pretty neutral on it but i like to rib it and its players when they try to claim it will over take GW or is a competitor or other dilusions of grandure, but i have never played the game or read the full rules, i was "given" some freebies way back and i just didnt like the models and i havent seen anything in the range to change my mind and trust me i have kept looking, i did see a warjack i liked the look of that i think has or is about to be released and some of the infantry is good, what annoys me is some of the artwork and concepts looks awesome but the end product does not live up to what was on the paper, were as i find with alot of other companies they translate and even improve on the concept designs,could also be the painting too, some of the stuff looks a little too toon for my tastes.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

elmir said:


> This would make sense if warmachine actually tries to copy WH (like other companies such as mantic).
> 
> Yet it doesn't. The similarities between warhammer (or WH40k) and warmahordes basically end at:
> - they are both miniature games
> - they both use dice.


stop been so serious elmir, i know they have gone to great lengths to not copy GW, to the point some models that scream "look at me, im so not GW it makes me look funny"


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Maidel said:


> The only way to get GW to reduce its prices is to make it not profitable to NOT reduce their prices.
> 
> I dont care what you play, I personally prefer 40K and I will (un)happily pay the increased price to continue playing it, and Im pretty certain lots of other people on both sides of the globe will do the same.


See, that's the thing. I do want GW to do well. I like the warhammer settings (both 40k and fantasy), I think the games are great (though I've gone off fantasy this edition, but it'll come round, I'm sure), and there's so much history there, really there is. Even with so many newer games moving into the market, it's still got something different. But they are hurting their customer base quite a bit these days, and seem to have a tin ear about it. That's why I think this video was a good idea, even if they don't consider half of his ideas, they could at least use a shakeup of how they think about relations with their customers and retailers (especially overseas), because they are gaining no friends, and losing many established customers.


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## chaoz2010 (Apr 2, 2011)

too bad GW's fb page has the wall post function disabled. was gonna post this last night......


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

maddermax said:


> and losing many established customers.


I was with you all the way until this sentance.

Actually - they dont give a ****.

Most 'veteran' gamers - like old farts like me - dont buy enough from them to actually make us a priority. Thus they would prefer lots of new gamers, rather than us old farts who only buy a codex and a box of models every year because we already HAVE everything.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

bitsandkits said:


> stop been so serious elmir, i know they have gone to great lengths to not copy GW, to the point some models that scream "look at me, im so not GW it makes me look funny"


Well that's the thing if you make an ironic/sarcastic/cynical reply on the interwebs. It's not noticable when you read it.  :so_happy:


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

elmir said:


> Well that's the thing if you make an ironic/sarcastic/cynical reply on the interwebs. It's not noticable when you read it.  :so_happy:


Hes british - its a forgone conclusion that his responses are sarcastic 


(at least I think hes british....)


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## turel2 (Mar 2, 2009)

The guy in that video hit the nail on the head.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

The Sullen One said:


> I haven't said "who cares about your country". Trust me mate, if I'd wanted to have a dig at Canada, then I would have had a dig at Canada. The point I was actually trying to make is that it's simpler where exports are concerned to have a general policy, since this reduces any logisitic confusion. The AoBR models aren't sub-standard just because they don't come with a variety of options. The larger models are easily convertible and compatible with GW's standard ranges, while for someone who is starting out and learning the game (which takes time, my first 1'500pt game took three hours), there is an advantage to having models with basic wargear. As for the sales tax, why would this be cancelled out by the Canadian Dollar? When I asked about sales taxes, I meant in-country taxes, levied by governments, that are similar to VAT over here.


I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on AoBR models being sub-standard. But here is a point to consider, which do you think costs more to make, 10 regular marines or 10 assault on black reach marines. Which models do you think people would rather have? Also if our dollar is stronger then the USA, why are we paying more then the USA?



bitsandkits said:


> well i figured it was obviously very important to you as you kept saying how cheap it is to get into warmachine so decided to take the thread a little more seriously as you suggested, thats the kinda open minded guy i am, i can see things from other peoples point of view, i dont just choose a stance and stick to it regardless of the fact presented before me, anyway that led me to reconsider my opinion and maybe something had changed with the system and the prices and it was now worth another look, so i did some research to see it was indeed cheaper to get into warmachine, and your right it is cheaper to start warmachine under certain circumstances,and those certain circumstances if im being honest are a little out of the ordinary from my understanding of how people start a hobby like wargaming.
> 
> You claim that people would be turned off by the price alone, without even giving any consideration that, for some people $120 or £61.50 is not alot of money to start a hobby or as a gift for a young teen,also side by side in a store "value for money" can be more important than price alone, popularity is a very important deciding factor (look at the i phone for example, plenty of better phones on the market, but it sells like hot cakes because its popular).
> Not to mention any store owner worth his salt would and should be pushing the more expensive product with more add on future sales and add to that the brand name of games workshop,also take into account longevity and security on your investment, i see a games workshop in every town and city so i know if i spend $120/£61.50 i will always be able to buy more stuff in the future for my army and have a place to play.
> Finally without putting too finer point on it i personally find many of the PP models a bit poor looking, warjacks with the odd exception look really ...awful, some of the infantry are quite nice but on the whole i think they are not as strong as the majority of 40k models,thats not to say everything GW produce is awesome, they have some big glaring cock ups too, but side by side i would choose GW minis every time.


To be honest, I think warmachine models look great, yes some of them do look poor but lots of them look great, some even better then 40k models (not to mention they have lots of good looking female models and I don't feel like I'm playing a sexist game). Then again that what I think. Some people will agree with me, other will disagree with me. The point is your last point doesn't help your argument what so ever cause that is your personally thoughts which is not shared by everyone.

120 dollars is considered a lot, yes compared to other hobbies maybe not but to them, it's a toy soldier and lots of people don't want to pay 120 dollars for toy soldiers. As for popularity, well GW popularity in Canada has just crashed. I only know of one person still buying GW, everyone has now moved on to Warmachine/Hordes, other people who live further away from me have moved on to flames of war. Your logic about managers doesn't apply to all managers. Not all managers are pushy or trying to get sales. Some of them are relax and like to give the customer room, instead of being in there face. Cause a manager who is in your face trying to push sales actually annoys customers which can cause customers not to come back to there store.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I believe the AoBR do - they have more plastic.


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## exsulis (Jul 17, 2008)

Maidel said:


> I was with you all the way until this sentance.
> 
> Actually - they dont give a ****.
> 
> Most 'veteran' gamers - like old farts like me - dont buy enough from them to actually make us a priority. Thus they would prefer lots of new gamers, rather than us old farts who only buy a codex and a box of models every year because we already HAVE everything.


Except that the Old Farts are the ones with the money, and $150+ to get started is a definite wall to the younger crowd.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

exsulis said:


> Except that the Old Farts are the ones with the money, and $150+ to get started is a definite wall to the younger crowd.


 
The old Farts may be the ones with the money - but they dont spend it. A new gamer will spend a HELL of a lot more in the short term than an old gamer.


And, for the 99th time, $150 is NOT the starting point - almost all of them will buy a unit of troops first.


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

Necrosis said:


> I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on AoBR models being sub-standard. But here is a point to consider, which do you think costs more to make, 10 regular marines or 10 assault on black reach marines. Which models do you think people would rather have? Also if our dollar is stronger then the USA, why are we paying more then the USA?


Because we made Team America World Police and South Park and Bill the Cat and Garfield and Calvin & Hobbes and Rock & Roll and Crack and Rap and ******** and Fords and Dodge Vipers and Playboy Magazine and Pamela Anderson and Traci Lords and Ron Jeremypuke and The Chappelle Show and The Internet and ahh fuck it you get the picture. We Are a whole box of awesome sauce.

Just kidding ... GW does need to fix the pricing set up.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Maidel said:


> The old Farts may be the ones with the money - but they dont spend it. A new gamer will spend a HELL of a lot more in the short term than an old gamer.


The greater percentage of them yes, but my usual gaming group is full of old-timer Vets and we've spent around A$35 -40,000 in the past 3/4 years, and there were plans for new armies amongst several of them, so about another 10 grand over the coming year....been panned now though due to the embargo, and heading PP's way.

Just saying....our group isn't alone in this regard either, but as far as how hard the embargo hits Aus GW's sales only the upcoming Balance Sheet will tell the story. It will probably follow the current trend - less sales transactions but similar dollar value due to price rises.

They appear to be happy with that outcome.


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## ArchangelPaladin (Jul 7, 2010)

I’m a little bit off topic here, but it’s still relevant to the original vid: I don’t have any problem with the “Embargo” because 40k is as close to a social game as you can get in nerd culture, and we need a place to play. If you play at a game store you damn well better be buying from them. I’ve seen two stores close down because of competition from internet retailers. One time during a regularly scheduled 40k night one of the owners told me only a handful of the player there that night had actually bought anything from him, and there was over a dozen games going on at the time…

So unless you play at home or at a GW store, support your FLGS because they are a dying bread. Besides most will offer a discount from GW’s prices so it should be a win win.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

boreas said:


> Well, that's an eye-opener... I'll have to look into that. So basically, I should look at it like that: Take the GW UK price. Take out the VAT (20%). Add a Canadian import tax (I'll put it at 15%). That should, technically give me the price that's on GW Canada. So:
> 
> AoBR: 61.5 pounds -> 49.2 pounds (without VAT) -> 58.06 pounds (incl. 18% import tax) -> 98.70$ (change to CDN$ @1.7 pounds/$).
> 
> ...


Good points raised there phil. You've managed to account for the extra costs, as for whether it's worth it, well that's upto you.



Necrosis said:


> I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on AoBR models being sub-standard. But here is a point to consider, which do you think costs more to make, 10 regular marines or 10 assault on black reach marines. Which models do you think people would rather have? Also if our dollar is stronger then the USA, why are we paying more then the USA?


I'll be honest, I don't have a clue why Canadians are paying more than Americans, though at a guess it might have something to do with the relative parity of both the Canadian and American dollar with the pound. There is no advantage to accomodating such a small difference (based on what we heard on the video), especially since you'd have to be changing prices constantly if you accomodated such a difference. Far easier I suppose to simply have the same prices in place for both countries.

As for your argument about the Marines in the Black Reach Box and those in a Tactical Squad box, it highlights the problem that you and I are having in conducting this argument. Seen simply in terms of the Marines, then I know that I'd want the Tactical Squad, simply because they've got more potential in modelling terms. As an Ork player however, I'm more than happy with the Ork models in the AoBR set, which is why I have so many of them.

A new player however, by which I mean someone completely new to the game and perhaps to the hobby as well, wouldn't neccessarily have the modelling experience that you or I have, so they wouldn't worry about the sophistication of the models, simply that they were well designed, which they are.



ArchangelPaladin said:


> I’m a little bit off topic here, but it’s still relevant to the original vid: I don’t have any problem with the “Embargo” because 40k is as close to a social game as you can get in nerd culture, and we need a place to play. If you play at a game store you damn well better be buying from them. I’ve seen two stores close down because of competition from internet retailers. One time during a regularly scheduled 40k night one of the owners told me only a handful of the player there that night had actually bought anything from him, and there was over a dozen games going on at the time…
> 
> So unless you play at home or at a GW store, support your FLGS because they are a dying bread. Besides most will offer a discount from GW’s prices so it should be a win win.


Absolutely right. I've stopped buying off the internet for anything but very rare items (such as my sisters) because I want to support the manager of my local GW, who I consider to be a friend. It's so convinient to be able to walk into a store in my local town that I feel really bad if it were to close down for any reason, so I buy from them to make sure that doesn't happen. That and I'm somewhat impatient at times.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

exsulis said:


> Except that the Old Farts are the ones with the money, and $150+ to get started is a definite wall to the younger crowd.





HOBO said:


> The greater percentage of them yes, but my usual gaming group is full of old-timer Vets and we've spent around A$35 -40,000 in the past 3/4 years, and there were plans for new armies amongst several of them, so about another 10 grand over the coming year....been panned now though due to the embargo, and heading PP's way.
> 
> Just saying....our group isn't alone in this regard either, but as far as how hard the embargo hits Aus GW's sales only the upcoming Balance Sheet will tell the story. It will probably follow the current trend - less sales transactions but similar dollar value due to price rises.
> 
> They appear to be happy with that outcome.


Yeah I always thought It was horseshit that 25 and older have the control of the Income and are the ones that continues the hobby 20+ years. I have a kid and he could never waltz in any shop, point at a $150 box set and say "I want". So where is this younger crowd that spend money come from??? Can anyone tell me. Half the damn country is on Food Stamps, rationing Gas, Wic, Welfare, ect... where are these hundreds little rich kids going into GW and buying $1000 of crap at a time?


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

HOBO said:


> The greater percentage of them yes, but my usual gaming group is full of old-timer Vets and we've spent around A$35 -40,000 in the past 3/4 years, and there were plans for new armies amongst several of them, so about another 10 grand over the coming year....been panned now though due to the embargo, and heading PP's way.
> 
> Just saying....our group isn't alone in this regard either, but as far as how hard the embargo hits Aus GW's sales only the upcoming Balance Sheet will tell the story. It will probably follow the current trend - less sales transactions but similar dollar value due to price rises.
> 
> They appear to be happy with that outcome.


Not alone at all. Our group has some fabulously big spenders, even if they don't have massive incomes, some of them put all their spare money into the hobby. These are guys who have never really complained about prices before, and they just slowly moved over to online purchases as times changed. They give GW a shiteload more money than any kid working with his pocket money could. These people are now the ones who I hear are putting off new purchases, or looking to start armies in different systems, rather than starting a 4th or 5th GW army. And while they buy online, they all make quite a few purchases in bricks and mortar stores too, they just use online to get the bulk of an army started. Without the cheaper start now though, they won't need to use the GW store to purchase the occasional new unit to expand their armies either, so the bricks and mortar stores will be doing less business with them too.



ArchangelPaladin said:


> I’m a little bit off topic here, but it’s still relevant to the original vid: I don’t have any problem with the “Embargo” because 40k is as close to a social game as you can get in nerd culture, and we need a place to play. If you play at a game store you damn well better be buying from them. I’ve seen two stores close down because of competition from internet retailers. One time during a regularly scheduled 40k night one of the owners told me only a handful of the player there that night had actually bought anything from him, and there was over a dozen games going on at the time…
> 
> So unless you play at home or at a GW store, support your FLGS because they are a dying bread. Besides most will offer a discount from GW’s prices so it should be a win win.


Well, I play in a pub with a club rather than in a store, BUT I understand how important FLGSs are to the hobby and I do support my FLGS. However, there comes a point where the difference in prices between the online stores and bricks and mortar stores becomes so ridiculous, that you cannot justify buying in store. I'm talking a 100% markup from bricks and mortar to online. Now, this is a uniquely GW problem, because Privateer press stuff at my FLGS is only marked up about 15-20% from what I can get it online. And I will and DO pay that, happily, to support my local.

If GW was able to price their stuff more competitively here in Australia, there wouldn't BE a problem with people purchasing in bricks and mortar stores. If GW sold to our local at the same price as they sell to locals in England, and the local was only 20% more expensive after overheads than online stores, then there wouldn't BE a problem with online stores stealing all the sales, because people WANT to support their local stores. But they won't do it for double the price, especially if they're not playing in-store. There's the rub.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

> maddermax said:
> 
> 
> > Not alone at all.
> ...


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I thought an English bloke made the internet OIIIIIO?


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## deathwatch27 (Dec 30, 2009)

no I did and im Welsh


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

I know im a lil late on this but I just watched this vid and I have to admit the guy knows how to run a business, which makes me think GW prolly gonna offer this dude a job.

he makes valid points, but Im gonna say it again I have a feeling that GW has something up their sleeve and actually do know what they are doin


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

TheSpore said:


> I know im a lil late on this but I just watched this vid and I have to admit the guy knows how to run a business, which makes me think GW prolly gonna offer this dude a job.
> 
> he makes valid points, but Im gonna say it again I have a feeling that GW has something up their sleeve and actually do know what they are doin


:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Offer him a job? Why in god's name would they do that? He insults them by resorting to scaremongering tactics involving Privateer Press (whose products are featured in the background:shok and threatening them with a loss of their market share. Would you offer someone like that a job?


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

The Sullen One said:


> Offer him a job? Why in god's name would they do that? He insults them by resorting to scaremongering tactics involving Privateer Press (whose products are featured in the background:shok and threatening them with a loss of their market share. Would you offer someone like that a job?


There is a difference between threatening and warning. Nothing about that guy is threatening in the slightest, except to innocent model packaging (if you've seen his finecast video).

Also, lots of people are pissed off at GW right now, and their PR sucks, so it's hardly scaremongering to actually tell them such. The things he discussed were some basic ideas to placate customers and retailers, with the hope of at least getting GW to think about the perceived problems and address them. He's not gunning for the end of GW, quite the opposite.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Yeah I always thought It was horseshit that 25 and older have the control of the Income and are the ones that continues the hobby 20+ years. I have a kid and he could never waltz in any shop, point at a $150 box set and say "I want". So where is this younger crowd that spend money come from??? Can anyone tell me. Half the damn country is on Food Stamps, rationing Gas, Wic, Welfare, ect... where are these hundreds little rich kids going into GW and buying $1000 of crap at a time?


All I'll say to this is - thats exactly what happens.

When I worked in GW we were told to 'be all over' any 'new' looking people, especially if they were there with their parents.

Its unbelievable, but we would have a 'good' sales day any time we had a parent come in and drop a load of cash on their child, and if that didnt happen that day, it was a bad sales day.

A good 'weekend' day, was when we had 2-3 parents doing that. If we didnt have ANYONE doing that on a weekend, well it was pretty much draw the short straw to see who was going to be sacked (not litterally I might add, the only guy who ever got sacked was the bloke who wrote '**** is a wanker' on the daily banking forms...)

We had regulars who would buy a single pot of paint or a single blister pack once a week and maybe a codex or a box of models once every couple of months - their grand total of purchases was about £100-200 a year (remember this was 10 years ago). A single 'new parent' would be spending that in 1 go, and possibly more later on - so that was why the focus was entirely on them.

Your average Vet in a store, spends bugger all compared to parents buying things for little jonny.


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

Maidel said:


> Your average Vet in a store, spends bugger all compared to parents buying things for little jonny.


Parents want to make their kids happy, I guess.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> Parents want to make their kids happy, I guess.


Ill say this if My kid when he gets older decides to partake in this hobby He will get one box at a time and will not get another box until he is done painting up the first one and when he gets old enuff to work he will pay for his own damn hobby this shit is too expensive for me to fully support both of us.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

maddermax said:


> Also, lots of people are pissed off at GW right now, and their PR sucks, so it's hardly scaremongering to actually tell them such. The things he discussed were some basic ideas to placate customers and retailers, with the hope of at least getting GW to think about the perceived problems and address them. He's not gunning for the end of GW, quite the opposite.


Thing is he isnt aiming the video at GW, if he wanted to genuinely do that he would go the correct route in a professional manner using the correct channels, the video is just his own marketing ploy to gain visits and sales to miniwargaming by "being for the player" he sells GW product and many of the stuff GW have done benefits him and his brick and mortal store.
I do agree with his statement about GW calling indies free loaders, that does show a huge lack of respect for companies who support the hobby in places that GW wont take the risk of opening a store themselves.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Well, B&K, whether he is using the video as an open letter to GW or using as a cunning marketing ploy - its a win/win.

If he's completely honest, then he is offering his suggestions.
and 
If he's using it to attract business then he is doing it in a way that is savvy and friendly to the market he sells to . . . much more gentle than the GW PR machine.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Kreuger said:


> Well, B&K, whether he is using the video as an open letter to GW or using as a cunning marketing ploy - its a win/win.
> 
> If he's completely honest, then he is offering his suggestions.
> and
> If he's using it to attract business then he is doing it in a way that is savvy and friendly to the market he sells to . . . much more gentle than the GW PR machine.


yeah I like how he is very very respectful to his competitors instead of bad mouthing them or giving them the finger like GW did


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

bitsandkits said:


> Thing is he isnt aiming the video at GW, if he wanted to genuinely do that he would go the correct route in a professional manner using the correct channels,


Well, two friends of mine who owned FLGS tried telling GW that the difference in pricing between Canada and the UK or USA was killing them. From what I understand, the GW rep just told them "tough luck, you're actually lucky we keep you". Both store are closed now. We did try to encourage them, but since none of our larger gaming group are "store player" (we prefer each other's house were we can drink a nice cold homebrewed beer), it was tedious to drive 20-25 minute to and back to actually pay 10% more (the guys did give us a 10% off, hence why they weren't 20% more).

So, I'd say "the correct route" seems not to help too much, around here. The store owner just might be tired of GW giving him the bird.

Phil


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Correct route? Proffessional Chanels? I dont think these things exist gor GW. Instead hes smart and putting it out for everyone ad anyone to see and give GW that wary eye. As we all should. Behind closed doors you get the finger. Out in the open... well more consideration and tack on BOTH sides are involved.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Correct route? Proffessional Chanels? I dont think these things exist gor GW. Instead hes smart and putting it out for everyone ad anyone to see and give GW that wary eye. As we all should. Behind closed doors you get the finger. Out in the open... well more consideration and tack on BOTH sides are involved.


At least it wasnt a rant.But anyhoo this video will do nothing at all. GW is gonna do what they wanna do and Im pretty sure theyalready have a business plan in motion.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

maddermax said:


> There is a difference between threatening and warning. Nothing about that guy is threatening in the slightest, except to innocent model packaging (if you've seen his finecast video).
> 
> Also, lots of people are pissed off at GW right now, and their PR sucks, so it's hardly scaremongering to actually tell them such. The things he discussed were some basic ideas to placate customers and retailers, with the hope of at least getting GW to think about the perceived problems and address them. He's not gunning for the end of GW, quite the opposite.


Put yourself in the mind of anyone at GW watching this video. The guy's displaying Warmachine products (intentionally or otherwise) behind him and then mentioning one company when he talks about GW losing their market share. If he talked about a variety of companies, systems, or trends that were popular amongst wargamers then fine. He isn't. What he's actually saying is that if GW don't sell him products cheap, he'll throw a major hissy fit and favour Privateer Press in his future promotions. Read between the lines, this is a man simply trying to get himself special treatment from GW, which is fair enough as a business strategy, but he should be open about it, not try and divide the online wargaming community along national lines.



bitsandkits said:


> Thing is he isnt aiming the video at GW, if he wanted to genuinely do that he would go the correct route in a professional manner using the correct channels, the video is just his own marketing ploy to gain visits and sales to miniwargaming by "being for the player" he sells GW product and many of the stuff GW have done benefits him and his brick and mortal store.
> I do agree with his statement about GW calling indies free loaders, that does show a huge lack of respect for companies who support the hobby in places that GW wont take the risk of opening a store themselves.


Spot on mate.



boreas said:


> Well, two friends of mine who owned FLGS tried telling GW that the difference in pricing between Canada and the UK or USA was killing them. From what I understand, the GW rep just told them "tough luck, you're actually lucky we keep you". Both store are closed now. We did try to encourage them, but since none of our larger gaming group are "store player" (we prefer each other's house were we can drink a nice cold homebrewed beer), it was tedious to drive 20-25 minute to and back to actually pay 10% more (the guys did give us a 10% off, hence why they weren't 20% more).
> 
> So, I'd say "the correct route" seems not to help too much, around here. The store owner just might be tired of GW giving him the bird.
> 
> Phil


So then, you weren't willing to support those stores? No wonder they closed.


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## Warrior of Ultramar (May 9, 2011)

*Spread the message if you agree!*






spread this to as many places as you can. Make Games Workshop listen!!k:

*Merged*


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## Mikeybx (Jul 8, 2009)

This Is so true 

*Merged*


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## Unforgiven302 (Oct 20, 2008)

this is at least the third thread started about this video on heresy alone. I sure wish people would take a minute, look around the forum and see that it has already been covered. Or, use the search function.

*Merged*


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Chaps we already have about 4 threads for this video, head over there for discussion.

*Merged*


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

The Sullen One said:


> So then, you weren't willing to support those stores? No wonder they closed.


Of course that's why they closed... Why would anyone sane go and buy something for 10% (or 20%) more? Only if they got some added service. I pay more for my fruits and vegetables because I get them from a local farmer. But I get a product that I find has higher quality. I also encourage someone local producing something local.

Now, what do I get from a FLGS? (or, even worse, GW store)? Over the year, I've learned, with the help of websites, books, DVDs and mainly practice to paint better than the store guys. I learned the ins and out of the game by reading and reading some more from forums like this one. I can play in my friend's basement. We have shelves where we can leave our minis so I'm not carrying them around all the time. We can smoke the hookah (no drug, just plain ol' shisha tobacco!). We can drink good beer. No one is around telling my army list sucks because it's not the WAAC BOLS list. 

Basically, we have our own private WH40k club with three 6'x4' tables and enough terrain to fill all of them. That's where me and my 3-4 best friends play. And most of our extended gaming circle (about 28-32 players) have at least a 6x4 table and some terrain in the basement. Why, then would I support a FLGS? I did buy some things there because they were friends (well, more like acquaintances, really). But it was like a charity thing, because each and every time, I walked in, said "Hi!" , had a chit-chat with the few poeple hanging around (usually some dumb discussion on how the Ultramarines sucked or why Batman could take on the Emperor...), bought a few blisters and drove back home.

If, at the very least, prices did match up with the US or UK prices, I'd still have gamed at home. But I'd have passed my orders (usually 200-300$ a batch) and picked them up at the store. 

Phil


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

boreas said:


> Of course that's why they closed... Why would anyone sane go and buy something for 10% (or 20%) more? Only if they got some added service. I pay more for my fruits and vegetables because I get them from a local farmer. But I get a product that I find has higher quality. I also encourage someone local producing something local.
> 
> Now, what do I get from a FLGS? (or, even worse, GW store)? Over the year, I've learned, with the help of websites, books, DVDs and mainly practice to paint better than the store guys. I learned the ins and out of the game by reading and reading some more from forums like this one. I can play in my friend's basement. We have shelves where we can leave our minis so I'm not carrying them around all the time. We can smoke the hookah (no drug, just plain ol' shisha tobacco!). We can drink good beer. No one is around telling my army list sucks because it's not the WAAC BOLS list.
> 
> ...


But that's the main point isn't it? Prices in North America will never match up with UK prices simply because of the costs associated with transport. As to why there's a discrepancy between US and Canadian prices, I'll be honest and say I haven't a clue, but it must be something to do with Canadian taxes because a quick look at the GW website shows the same prices for both Canada and the US (and a few cents after currency conversion isn't really a difference).

As for your home gaming, it sounds nice, but at the same time what incentive do GW have to offer you a cheaper product if you're not willing to support them by buying directly from them?


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

The Sullen One said:


> But that's the main point isn't it? Prices in North America will never match up with UK prices simply because of the costs associated with transport. As to why there's a discrepancy between US and Canadian prices, I'll be honest and say I haven't a clue, but it must be something to do with Canadian taxes because a quick look at the GW website shows the same prices for both Canada and the US (and a few cents after currency conversion isn't really a difference).


Actually, if you look, everything is 20% more expensive one the Canadian site than on the US site. But our dollar is at parity with the US$ for about 3 years now.



The Sullen One said:


> As for your home gaming, it sounds nice, but at the same time what incentive do GW have to offer you a cheaper product if you're not willing to support them by buying directly from them?


Because then no one will actually buy the stuff (as is happening more and more right now). But the whole point is I'm willing to buy from them, but not pay 20% more for no good reason. That hypothetical 18% import tax isn't the cause, I think, because 5 years ago everything was 20% more expensive than in the US, and 5 years late, with our stronger dollar both vs the US and the Pound, we'Re still at a 20% difference. So, basically GW is pocketing our stronger dollar. And I, for one am no willing top support a company that does this (be it GW or any other company).

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> Because then no one will actually buy the stuff (as is happening more and more right now). But the whole point is I'm willing to buy from them, but not pay 20% more for no good reason. That hypothetical 18% import tax isn't the cause, I think, because 5 years ago everything was 20% more expensive than in the US, and 5 years late, with our stronger dollar both vs the US and the Pound, we'Re still at a 20% difference. So, basically GW is pocketing our stronger dollar. And I, for one am no willing top support a company that does this (be it GW or any other company).
> 
> Phil


Dear god - If I did that for every company who sold stuff at the same 'number' in pounds as it does in dollars - well bugger me, Id never buy anything (ironically, accept GW stuff...)

DVDs, Itunes, Books, TVs, Computers, Ipods, I-friggin-phones - the list goes on and on - these are all items that cost the same (broadly) in dollars as they do in pounds - despite the fact that a dollar is worth about £1.4!

Actually - thats a FOURTY % increase - feel friggin lucky that yours is only 20%!


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

As at 23.30pm EAT the Canadian Dollar is worth $1.02 US. so it is above parity, while it is worth 96c Australian. While the Australian Dollar is worth at the minute $1.06US, or $1.04CD.

So with our currency worth more that both the US and Canadian Dollar we still pay on average an 87.5% Mark-up above UK and North American Prices. I would kill to live in the US or Canada and get those bloody dirt cheap GW products.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Achaylus72 said:


> As at 23.30pm EAT the Canadian Dollar is worth $1.02 US. so it is above parity, while it is worth 96c Australian. While the Australian Dollar is worth at the minute $1.06US, or $1.04CD.
> 
> So with our currency worth more that both the US and Canadian Dollar we still pay on average an 87.5% Mark-up above UK and North American Prices. I would kill to live in the US or Canada and get those bloody dirt cheap GW products.


But the value of your dollar is utterly out of proportion with the value of your wages - you earn DOUBLE the average wage (After conversion) of someone in the UK - thus, when people in Australia want to buy products from people in austraila you end up paying about double.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Maidel said:


> Dear god - If I did that for every company who sold stuff at the same 'number' in pounds as it does in dollars - well bugger me, Id never buy anything (ironically, accept GW stuff...)
> 
> DVDs, Itunes, Books, TVs, Computers, Ipods, I-friggin-phones - the list goes on and on - these are all items that cost the same (broadly) in dollars as they do in pounds - despite the fact that a dollar is worth about £1.4!
> 
> Actually - thats a FOURTY % increase - feel friggin lucky that yours is only 20%!


You all should feel lucky, The Australian Institute conducted a study on Australian prices on foreign goods and compared them to their overseas prices. The Australian Institute found that we Australains pay between 54% to 195% mark-up on goods.

Toys (in which GW belons to) is marked-up by 75% to 125% above foreign shelf prices. GW Australian shelf price is marked-up by 87.5% compared to UK shelf price, taking the exchange rate into account.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Achaylus72 said:


> You all should feel lucky, The Australian Institute conducted a study on Australian prices on foreign goods and compared them to their overseas prices. The Australian Institute found that we Australains pay between 54% to 195% mark-up on goods.
> 
> Toys (in which GW belons to) is marked-up by 75% to 125% above foreign shelf prices. GW Australian shelf price is marked-up by 87.5% compared to UK shelf price, taking the exchange rate into account.


Sigh - please read and understand.

You have (on average) in australia a ONE HUNDRED percent mark up on your salary compared to the UK (Average wage in UK £21,000, average wage in australia after conversion to UK £42,000).

That is why everything is so much more expensive for you.

The guy who sells you stuff at the till - he earns twice what the same person does in the UK - therefore, the labour costs are twice what they are in the UK. Those haulage costs - the truckers earn twice as much etc etc ad infinatum.

Therefore, if GWs prices are only an 88% mark up, in REAL terms they are TWELVE % LESS than we pay in the UK.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Maidel said:


> Dear god - If I did that for every company who sold stuff at the same 'number' in pounds as it does in dollars - well bugger me, Id never buy anything (ironically, accept GW stuff...)
> 
> DVDs, Itunes, Books, TVs, Computers, Ipods, I-friggin-phones - the list goes on and on - these are all items that cost the same (broadly) in dollars as they do in pounds - despite the fact that a dollar is worth about £1.4!
> 
> Actually - thats a FOURTY % increase - feel friggin lucky that yours is only 20%!


And you don't take any action? Dear god! I might be one of those ranters, I guess. But I'm one of those persons that will shop around and use coupons and haggle on just about everything except my grocery. And even then, I try to buy home brand or stock what's on special. 

Mind you, I'm no communist. Actually, my friends see me a bit as center-right in what's a mostly left country. But my hard earned money will buy me the most I can get. I might look tiresome, but its a bit similar to playing strategy games really. Let's say I earn 40 000 CDN$ (after tax) and that I manage to get about 10% off on 10% of what I spend (because, let's be frank I won't get 10% off on my mortgage and things like that). That's 400$ right there in my pockets. Now, I've done the actual maths, and because my salary is over that, etc, I get a lot more than 400$ in my pockets each and every year.

So yes, as I consumer I think should should rant and write and pressure companies. Not that I'd judge you if you don't as it can be energy draining at times. But if consumers don't do those things, we'd be stepped upon by companies more and more every year. And yes, things can change. Look at electronic musing. The record industry fought for years and lost. 

But enough "real" world stuff and I don't want to walk into the dangerous area of politics. I'm pretty sure I've said all can can on the subjet and any more from my part would become annoying ranting (if it didn't already! :biggrin. I'll resume with this thought:_ I, personally, think that GW's policies of insisting to have people walk into brick and mortar stores, and of keeping prices in Canada 20% higher that the US despite the dollar parity and combining to drive players away from playing GW games_. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what my local experience tells me.

Now, it's 32degrees outside so I'll get out of my basement and have a cold one! Cheers!

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> And you don't take any action? Dear god! I might be one of those ranters, I guess. But I'm one of those persons that will shop around and use coupons and haggle on just about everything except my grocery. And even then, I try to buy home brand or stock what's on special.


HAHA - what action can you take? Sure I shop around - but you cant buy an Iphone accept from Apple (or an apple approved distributor).

So in some ways its identical to GW - if you want to the product, you pay the price they are asking - dont like it, go to a competator.

Its just a shame that like the iphone, there simply isnt a decent competator that ticks all the boxes.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Maidel said:


> HAHA - what action can you take? Sure I shop around - but you cant buy an Iphone accept from Apple (or an apple approved distributor).
> 
> So in some ways its identical to GW - if you want to the product, you pay the price they are asking - dont like it, go to a competator.
> 
> Its just a shame that like the iphone, there simply isnt a decent competator that ticks all the boxes.


I guess there's not much Android in the UK?

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/08/android-beats-iphone-in-smartphone-sales/



There's always an alternative. And when there isn't, stop buying! Apple has had to put a lot of water in it's wine over the last 30 years. They are nowhere near the nazis they were when I bought my first Mac computer (or really, my father bought...) in 1984. The iTune store alone has made concessions to consumers in the last 3-5 years (like digital protection and stuff...).

Phil (who really should be out of his basement!)


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

boreas said:


> I guess there's not much Android in the UK?
> 
> http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/08/android-beats-iphone-in-smartphone-sales/
> 
> ...


Oh, we have android. But its just not an iphone...

The more I think of it the better the annology is. Iphones = GW, Android Phones = other wargames.

They are all very similar - they have apps, touch screens, play films and music, games - but none of them do it 'just like' an iphone.

All other wargames are, just that, other wargames - they all shoot and fight and have models - but they 'just arent' GW.

You pay far more for an iphone, you pay more for GW - if you want THEM, you pay for them, if you dont, you go get something else.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> I would much rather pay more and GW be around for a long time, rather than have a price-cut and see the company fail; those who would like to see GW fail never seem to think about the tens of thousands of people _just like you and me_ who would likely lose their home, and face other financial hardship, as their job evaporates, all because the these people are invisible to the consumer.


I'm unsure if you hail from the US or not, but over in the states we have terminology to describe injecting TONS of money into a failing business model in hopes the executives won't pocket all of it. We call it "Bail-Outs". And we reserve it for banks.

I've never seen a bail-out done by a swarm of people, especially when all of us combined probably can't even produce a fraction of the investment cost it'd require to fix all the problems with GW's management decisions and financial insecurities.

It's like a bunch of ants trying to move an undersea volcano onto land. We don't have the manpower, the faculties, or the voice to actually assist them in sinking into an abyss. Whether or not this man made a logical, morally sound argument is irrelevant as hundreds of thousands, if not hundreds of millions of equally sound rebuttal videos go unheard every single day. Nobody cares how good of a point you make on youtube. 

tl;dr=Single people don't change companies, angry mobs and money change companies.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Maidel said:


> Oh, we have android. But its just not an iphone...
> 
> The more I think of it the better the annology is. Iphones = GW, Android Phones = other wargames.
> 
> ...


If I were GW's CEO,m right now, I'd be very afraid of that analogy. Because if you're right, GW will get it's behind kicked in the US. Just like the Iphone is losing it's larger share of the market:

http://www.zanura.com/blog/reviews/iphone-review/android-versus-iphone-market-share-2/

http://blogs.computerworld.com/17752/android_beats_iphone_q4_market_share_nokia_microsoft_lag

Actually, the analogy is quite good, because the reasons the iPhone is losing is because it's trying to dictate what user want instead of listening. Open source is a very NA mentality.

I wonder if we'll see Mantic's and PP games, when added together get past GW's hold on the market? 

Phil


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Actually - those things dont show anything of the sort and the person who wrote that blog is using exactly the same reasoning as people do on this forum. They see a trend and assign a reason - based on nothing more than 'what they think'.

Iphones are NOT 'losing' market share. Yes, their share in the market is reducing - but that is not because they are not increasing their numbers. No, what is actually happening is that the market has moved.

A better comparason would be to look at the iphone in the 'general' mobile phone market - where you would see that it is in fact increasing its share of the market. The reason why android is 'gaining' market share in the smart phone market is that mobiles in general are becoming 'smart' phones. Apple have one product aimed at one part of the market - the other phones are aimed at all areas of the market. Hell, there are 'smart' phones out there that arent even as good as the first generation of the iphone, yet they are called 'smart phones' which for me is utter crap.

Ill repeat - the iphone is selling in greater numbers than ever before - the difference is, more smart phones are being produced to fill 'lower' parts of the 'smart phone' tree - an area that apple doesnt cater for, and thus its apparant market share is dwindling.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I don't understand the comments of "Its a Iphone and you pay for such"...

You mean Brand Name right? Like its a Iphone and its the best by name brand alone, thus always the trusted popular choice?

If thats the case then yeah. Same goes for anything thats mainstream Name-brand. But when something else is seen just as good if not better at a better price, added with hard World Economic times, you do see these first starting companies lose sales and become second rate to competitors. 

Its really simple math. Humans Beings who work for their money like to get the most they can. America is still in the second Great Depression and Americans as a whole do not buy from Name Brands as much anymore, and no matter how well establish GW is in MiniWargaming its going to lose to PP in America as a result of their A) Lack of Listening to the Consumer (which has and will be BAD BUSINESS), B) Daily increase in Prices, and C) Having a cheaper and as good competitor gunning for them.

At first I didn't understand GW marketing at all, then it was mention "thats how British do Business." That open my eyes a bit. The British, which GW is run by, have totally different way that their country do things. So my new outlook is PP seems to do American way of things and thats whats taking hold of American Miniwargaming now. So GW will no doubt be uber popular still in the EU. In America/Canada and now Australia I see PP being #1.


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## boreas (Dec 4, 2007)

Maidel said:


> Iphones are NOT 'losing' market share. Yes, their share in the market is reducing - but that is not because they are not increasing their numbers. No, what is actually happening is that the market has moved.
> 
> A better comparason would be to look at the iphone in the 'general' mobile phone market - where you would see that it is in fact increasing its share of the market. The reason why android is 'gaining' market share in the smart phone market is that mobiles in general are becoming 'smart' phones. Apple have one product aimed at one part of the market - the other phones are aimed at all areas of the market. Hell, there are 'smart' phones out there that arent even as good as the first generation of the iphone, yet they are called 'smart phones' which for me is utter crap.


Well, that they are crap is your judgement. Obviously, for more and more people buying Android an iPhone is basically an overpriced toy. And of course the comparison is for smartphone, as both iPhones and Android only do smartphones by definition. But as the iPhone is still gaining some "general mobile" phone market shares (mainly because some people replace their regular phone with iPhones), so are Android phones. But the thing is, the Android phones are gaining market share faster than iPhone. And in the near future, it's quite probable that more people will be using Androids than iPhone, even if you find them to be crap.

Same goes for GW. You and B&K can spit all you want on PP or Mantic products because you don't like them. I don't either. But the real harsh truth is that that Big Mass of NA gamers, which might be up to five times as big as the UK mass of gamers might actually jump ship. Just like They are buying more and more Android phones. Maybe they don't need the super-hyper tech phone that's twice the price. Maybe, also, that they are more casual gamers that don't want to paint a 800$ army with 100 detailed models (and wait years for an update, and months for a FAQ, and more years for a second wave of models only to have half their codex invalidated by 5th ed. because, really, the GW "software" or rules is really not up there with the iPhone!).

GW has that same elitist attitude of "listen to our gospel or get the frak out because we are so good that competition don't even exist". That, usually, is very bad for business. Apple learned that with the Mac computer (and is repeating the mistake with the iPhone). Same with NA car makers in the 90s.

Phil


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

boreas said:


> GW has that same elitist attitude of "listen to our gospel or get the frak out because we are so good that competition don't even exist". That, usually, is very bad for business. Apple learned that with the Mac computer (and is repeating the mistake with the iPhone). Same with NA car makers in the 90s.
> 
> Phil


its a good analogy but flawed, apple and US car makers did both have competition in the PC and all the other car manufactures, GW however does not, GW puts total 100% faith in its store policy and FLGS with stores, for GW to recognize a competitor the game manufacture would need to start opening stores of there own, they may be wrong to do so but thats the truth of it, also GW have seen many other "competitors" come and sad to say go, there have been other box war games and there have been loads of mail order wargames over the years some predating GW and are still kicking about, i could go to a wargame convention any day of the week and there will be far more than just PP,GW and mantic on show, the last one i went to was almost 80% historical warfare and some movie/comic tie ins, the only place i saw GW stuff was on the bring and buy tables (picked up some old metal deathwing terminators!!)
GW dont care about market share, because they are the market, they have created there own market and year on year they loose loads of players and year on year (and i have no idea how or why it happens) they attract a new bunch of wallets to gouge. They have been at this for over 30 years and i have confidence that they will carry on, people will drop the games and people will go back to the games and new people will come along, i personally dont for one second believe the wargames market is saturated enough for GW to worry about the competition yet, maybe later that will be different.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

boreas said:


> Actually, if you look, everything is 20% more expensive one the Canadian site than on the US site. But our dollar is at parity with the US$ for about 3 years now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just checked on GW's site, and yes Canadians are paying more now, though that wasn't the case a few days ago. However it does seem unfair, after all it can't be anymore expensive to ship to Canada than to the United States, but there must be a reason for this, whatever it is.


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## Usaal (Apr 9, 2008)

There is a part 2 to this video, I may have to grab that one too and put it up for you guys. Honestly I just posted the video then came back to find 200 posts, so I have not read them all, so if this is the secound time of posting part 2, sorry, just trying to help out.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

HAHAHA

Oh thats utter gold.

'We dont have any advertising linked to the new survey, no coupons, no advertising, no nothing. Just go to miniwargaming.com/survey'

Oh thats absolutely classic.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Maidel said:


> HAHAHA
> 
> Oh thats utter gold.
> 
> ...


Exactly, this guy is just trying to drum up customers for his company and attempting to play off the image of himself as David vs GW's Goliath in order to win support.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Well, to his credit, he's moved from standing in front of the PP range to standing in front of the GW one.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

... and it occurs to me actually taking the survey and saying Heresy got us into the game, that's good advertising FOR US.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Shandathe said:


> ... and it occurs to me actually taking the survey and saying Heresy got us into the game, that's good advertising FOR US.


Yes - but it didnt.

Looking for a less 'whiney' version of warseer was what got me into hersey.

'my dad 20 years ago' doesnt count as a website...


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## turel2 (Mar 2, 2009)

Part 2 of the video, nice 

Heresy got me back into 40k.


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