# The Siege Of Terra



## Jeanms_247 (Mar 3, 2010)

Hey, so once again, Questions regarding fluff, this time concerning the siege of terra at the end of the heresy. So, if anyone could be kind enough to relate to me things such as
- Sanguinis vs Malafax (or more precisely, who is malafax?)
- The role and presence that the traitor legions had on Terra during the fight
- Was the Emperor present during the fighting? 
- The loyal legions involved
- Estimated death toll (would be awesome)
- The Final battle between the Emperor and Horus (the presence of Sanguinis and the lone terminator)
- Death of Kharn
- The withdrawal of the traitor legions

thanks


----------



## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Jeanms_247 said:


> Hey, so once again, Questions regarding fluff, this time concerning the siege of terra at the end of the heresy. So, if anyone could be kind enough to relate to me things such as
> - Sanguinis vs Malafax (or more precisely, who is malafax?)
> - The role and presence that the traitor legions had on Terra during the fight
> - Was the Emperor present during the fighting?
> ...


- Malafax is a Bloodrhirster of Khorne IIRC
- The Loyal Legions to primarily defend Terra were the White Scars, Blood Angels and the Imperial Fists
- The Loyalists lost around 2 Trillion* Adeptus Astartes, Adeptus Custodes, Mechanicus personnel and Army (as well as others...) 
- Traitors lost ~4 Trillion*

* May be the whole Heresy..

Its all I can help with:cray:


----------



## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

all i know is that the world eaters led form the front and did a good job killing!


----------



## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

Well here is what I can answer- 

-The Bloodthirster, if that is who you mean was Ka'Bandha not Malifax, unless the latter was something else. 

-Most of the Traitor Legions were engrossed in the Siege of the Palace itself, but the Emperor's Children led attacks against the standard civillians of Terra. Iron Warriors would have bombarded, World Eaters chaged ect. 

-I believe the Emperor himself did not get too deeply involved in the fighting, I assume he was busy trying to keep it together and figure out what was happening. 

-The Loyalist's consisted of the White Scars under Jaghatai Khan, the Imperial Fist's of Dorn and the Blood Angels. But if you also wanted to include the Custodes and the seventy or so Death Guard under Nathanial Garro (If they took part) and Iacton Qruze (Same as the Death Guard, we don't actually know if they fought)

-I _highly_ doubt if im honest, that the numbers killed were in the Trillions. I would say it was in the millions and maybe even the billions but not much more, though I may be wrong. 

As for the rest, I cannot really say much about them if im honest. Hope that helps however


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Jeanms_247 said:


> Hey, so once again, Questions regarding fluff, this time concerning the siege of terra at the end of the heresy. So, if anyone could be kind enough to relate to me things such as
> - Sanguinis vs Malafax (or more precisely, who is malafax?)
> - The role and presence that the traitor legions had on Terra during the fight
> - Was the Emperor present during the fighting?
> ...


+I don't know who Malafax is but the Blood Thirster Sanguinius fought was Ka'Bandha.

+There were 7 Legions present (in entirety or part):
*Sons of Horus*- Horus' reserve force
*Emperor's Children*- they quickly tired of the Siege and embarked on a genocidal campaign against civilian populations
*World Eaters*- at the forefront of every assault
*Death Guard*- the anvil to the World Eaters hammer
*Thousand Sons*- conjured daemons and used their sorcerous arts to bombard the loyalists
*Iron Warriors*- used thier expertise in Siege warfare to bombard the Palace and thie Imperial Fists fortress adjacent to the palace
*Word Bearers*- (only about 40 companies) similar role to the Sons of Horus I imagine

+The Emperor wasn't present during the fighting, he was on the Golden Throne preventing Terra from being overrun with Daemons from the Imperial Webway

+Blood Angels were the first Legion to arrive at Terra in force with the White Scars and the majority of the Imperial Fists reaching Earth just before the Traitors

+There's not really a record of how many lives were lost but for the majority of the Heresy the loyalists suffered heavier losses than the traitors

+When the Emperor arrived at Horus' throne room Sanguinius was already dead, brutally murdered by Horus (at the same time he died the darkness within the Blood Angels that had been uncovered by the actions of Ka'Bandha was unleashed and the entire Legion went berserk and threw themselves at the traitors outside the walls of the palace). For most of the fight Horus was winning and virtually ripping the Emperor apart (ripping an arm from it's socket, crushing the side of his face etc) until a Terminator/Custodian/Army Trooper etc wandered into the throne room attempted to save the Emperor and was casually flayed by Horus- that was the last straw for the Emperor and he gathered his power and obliterated Horus body and soul.

+Kharne was found a top a mound of his victims outsides the walls of the Palace, for some reason the World Eaters felt compelled to retrieve his body and it was discovered Kharne lived still.

+With the death of Horus it was pretty much a case of every man for himself with most of the traitor army being left behind with only the Traitor Legions and Titans being successfully extracted for the most part.


----------



## bobss (May 18, 2008)

I can specifically remember reading a Wiki article (Before it was taken off) about the losses of both sides during the entire Heresy:

- 2 Trillion for the Loyalists
- 4 Trillion for the Traitors

- Note, this includes the Purging afterwards, and includes civilian casualties and Army losses.


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

bobss said:


> I can specifically remember reading a Wiki article (Before it was taken off) about the losses of both sides during the entire Heresy:


It's a Wiki. You could also read that the Emperor moonlighted as a geisha girl on the weekends. Doesn't mean it's true.


----------



## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Khorne's Fist said:


> It's a Wiki. You could also read that the Emperor moonlighted as a geisha girl on the weekends. Doesn't mean it's true.


Ffs, please, Wiki is more accurate than _Child of the Emperor_ to state how accurate the darn thing is (lol), so what if it makes mistakes? Other media massively takes those mistakes out of proportion ¬¬


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Wiki has to provide sources for that sort of thing for it to be believable, I don't mind using Wiki (or lexicanum) but to be used as a basis for an argument you have to look up the sources it references to see if they check out, otherwise it might just be someone doing what we occasionally do and making educated guesses influenced by their own biases.


----------



## Jeanms_247 (Mar 3, 2010)

They should really update lexicanum...
but Hey, were there Titans on Terra during the siege ?


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Keep in mind that in regards to the numbers lost; bobss you said it yourself, the article you read the losses from was taken down.

There are few times when something like that is done, when the information is retconned and altered, or when the information is false and needs to be taken down in order to prevent the spreading of false information.


----------



## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Yes, loads, if youve read mechanicum there is a titan battle [SPOILERS]

Traitors win, then go to terra including the Deus Irea or what ever its called.


----------



## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

The others have already pretty much covered everything but i can tell you Kharn is supposed to have died right at the hight of the fighting at (I think) the same moment as Horus. So it's highly likely that he got Blood Angeled to death during the mass berzerker incident.

Also I'm not sure how many titan Legions were actually present in total but the two that get a specific mention are the Legio Mortis (Death Skulls) and the Legio Ignatum (Fire Wasps.) Thats why to this day there are still Legio Ignatum Engines guarding the Sanctum Imperialis.


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Coder59 said:


> The others have already pretty much covered everything but i can tell you Kharn is supposed to have died right at the hight of the fighting at (I think) the same moment as Horus. So it's highly likely that he got Blood Angeled to death during the mass berzerker incident.


Actually, if I remember my fluff right, Kharn did not fall to any Blood Angels but instead was defeated in single combat by Sigismund of the Imperial Fists.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

bobss said:


> Ffs, please, Wiki is more accurate than _Child of the Emperor_ to state how accurate the darn thing is (lol), so what if it makes mistakes? Other media massively takes those mistakes out of proportion ¬¬




Well to be honest Im probably more accurate considering you get some complete retards editing wikis :biggrin: - I usually have some source material to back up most things I say, unless its a personal theory then at least I tend to have some form of implication from source material on hand!



Baron Spikey said:


> +I don't know who Malafax is but the Blood Thirster Sanguinius fought was Ka'Bandha.
> 
> +There were 7 Legions present (in entirety or part):
> *Sons of Horus*- Horus' reserve force
> ...


The Baron said it all


----------



## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

darkreever said:


> Actually, if I remember my fluff right, Kharn did not fall to any Blood Angels but instead was defeated in single combat by Sigismund of the Imperial Fists.


Really? I didn't think Sigismund got that close. But if he did COOL! I actually am really starting to get into the Fists lately mainly from their actions during the HH and the idea of Sigismund seeking him out and clobbering him is much better than some random Blood Angel biting his face off.


----------



## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Well to be honest Im probably more accurate considering you get some complete retards editing wikis :biggrin: - I usually have some source material to back up most things I say, unless its a personal theory then at least I tend to have some form of implication from source material on hand!
> 
> 
> 
> The Baron said it all


I guess, though Im still sticking to my guns about the estimates. Over a decade of apocalypitic war, Virus bombing and genocidical slaughter throughout the Galaxy, as well as the brutal decimation after the Heresy, the numbers add up:victory:


----------



## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Well you have to keep in mind that during the siege, Sigismund took it upon himself to challenge any and all champions of the traitors he could find, Kharn would have been amongst those forces, especially because the World Eaters would have been the vanguard of the traitor forces fighting as that was just who they were.

That the two would run into each other was/is highly probable; that they would clash, there is no way around it.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

bobss said:


> I guess, though Im still sticking to my guns about the estimates. Over a decade of apocalypitic war, Virus bombing and genocidical slaughter throughout the Galaxy, as well as the brutal decimation after the Heresy, the numbers add up:victory:


6 Trillion on both sides for the entire Heresy and Scourging? And you read this off a Wiki, from which it was subsequently removed (probably because it wasn't sourced)?

It looks to me like someone completely made it up. But to be honest if I had to give an estimate of complete casualties on both sides throughout the entire Heresy and Scourging, I would say much more than 6 Trillion. Especially if you consider that essentially no part of the Imperium was spared from the fighting.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Woah horus tore the emperor's arm off? First time I come across that bit of information.

If that's the case, did he use a mechanical arm? If so then it should be the one ligament from his body that hasn't decayed while on the golden throne, no?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Woah horus tore the emperor's arm off? First time I come across that bit of information.
> 
> If that's the case, did he use a mechanical arm? If so then it should be the one ligament from his body that hasn't decayed while on the golden throne, no?


If you read the _Collected Visions'_ account of their duel it goes into detail quite a lot. From memory Horus inflicted hell of lot of mortal injuries on the Emperor: Poked out his eye, broke his ribs/spine, cut off his arm, mangled his face beyond recognition, etc (the list goes on!)

And no I don't think he would have had a bionic arm in place, I mean firstly there was no time and he wouldn't have needed one anyway, he accepted his fate of having to sit on the Golden Throne.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> If you read the _Collected Visions'_ account of their duel it goes into detail quite a lot. From memory Horus inflicted hell of lot of mortal injuries on the Emperor: Poked out his eye, broke his ribs/spine, cut off his arm, mangled his face beyond recognition, etc (the list goes on!)
> 
> And no I don't think he would have had a bionic arm in place, I mean firstly there was no time and he wouldn't have needed one anyway, he accepted his fate of having to sit on the Golden Throne.


Interesting.

I'm pretty sure the corpse like image of the emperor on the throne shows him having both arms intact though no?


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Hmm... Never read that either but it would seem reasonable given the fact the emperor wasn't giving the fight his all, or atleast that is what I have heard. If that is the case the emperor would be fighting at a severe disadvantage. What damage did Horus suffer? Not including the death blow.


----------



## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I think the slight case of death was pretty much horus' only wound of significance. 
I think Cote may be right about the totals. Was it 4 billion at istivan 3? There were definately other cases of planetary destruction and of course terra is the most densely populated planet in the imperium. Add to that the destruction of prospero and the IW's purge of olympia(not sure if this counts as part of the heresy) not to mention the deaths among the population of mars or the death toll from major fleet actions. The numbers would be truly staggering.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the corpse like image of the emperor on the throne shows him having both arms intact though no?


What illustration would that be?  Fanart?


gen.ahab said:


> Hmm... Never read that either but it would seem reasonable given the fact the emperor wasn't giving the fight his all, or atleast that is what I have heard. If that is the case the emperor would be fighting at a severe disadvantage. What damage did Horus suffer? Not including the death blow.


Well going by the _Collected Visions_ account it wasn't necessarily that he wasn't giving it his all, it was more the idea of disbelief in what was happening. I distinctly remember (not having my copy on me currently) the Emperor thinking to himself 'How could I be losing?' or something to that effect. In fact the CV actually implies that throughout most of the fight it was Horus that wasn't giving it his all, and was toying with the Emperor.

You have to remember that Horus (bearing the Mark of Chaos Ascendent, and blessed with the power of the warp) was essentially on par with the Emperor, in terms of power and ability. The final death-blow dealt by the Emperor was summoned with _all_ of the Emperor's psychic might, and it basically left him as a shattered wreck.



shaantitus said:


> I think the slight case of death was pretty much horus' only wound of significance.
> I think Cote may be right about the totals. Was it 4 billion at istivan 3? There were definately other cases of planetary destruction and of course terra is the most densely populated planet in the imperium. Add to that the destruction of prospero and the IW's purge of olympia(not sure if this counts as part of the heresy) not to mention the deaths among the population of mars or the death toll from major fleet actions. The numbers would be truly staggering.


Well the major known events aside for a moment, there was not one part of the Imperium free of fighting during the Heresy. Countless Imperial Govenors rebelled and joined Horus and launched campaigns on neighbouring worlds/systems, heck many people used the Heresy as an opportunity (Luther on Caliban being a prominent example) to break free from the Imperium which they saw as a hated oppressor. The Bloodshed was unprecedented.


----------



## Thousandth Son (Jan 28, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor speaks truth (by the way, nice new profile picture)- according to Collected Visions the Emperor gets totally mangled.


----------



## Jeanms_247 (Mar 3, 2010)

Ya, the last pic of the Emperor I found on deviantart was missing an arm and was pretty much clobbered. Did the Emperor really let Horus beat him most of the time? Me knows not


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I distinctly remember that the emperor wasn't fighting to kill throughout most of the battle. Being his own son, I doubt the emperor was throwing punches like Horus was. And yeah, that last psychic blast destroyed Horus utterly, I might be drawing conclusions out of thin air but didn't that last blast have the capability do even wound the gods that inhabited his body?


----------



## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

As i remember reading about duel somewhere, Horus actualy pwned emperor, but emperor shot a psychic hole through horus and basicaly they both would have died if not for partial restoration through golden throne.

And losses through other people rebelling could be pretty huge, i mean people were pretty much enraged because Terra decided to start putting up huge taxes on new worlds that were not even restored properly yet.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Oh Child I'm so disappointed in you :grin:

The picture of the Emperor on the Golden Throne (with 2 arms) is on P.11 of the 3rd Edition BRB


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> And yeah, that last psychic blast destroyed Horus utterly


Well his soul yeah, his body remained intact 



gen.ahab said:


> I might be drawing conclusions out of thin air but didn't that last blast have the capability do even wound the gods that inhabited his body?


I believe its mentioned in one of the first accounts of the duel that the Chaos Gods fled from Horus, or something to that effect, but its not exactly like the gods were actually inhabiting his body.

The Warp Gods are on a whole different level to even the Emperor.



An indicator of this is in _A Thousand Sons_, when Magnus states that the Emperor bargained with the Chaos Gods, but would never face them.




MyI)arkness said:


> And losses through other people rebelling could be pretty huge, i mean people were pretty much enraged because Terra decided to start putting up huge taxes on new worlds that were not even restored properly yet.


Exactly yeah, something which I imagine Horus exploited to the full.



Thousandth Son said:


> Child-of-the-Emperor speaks truth (by the way, nice new profile picture)


Thanks :biggrin: - I like it myself, im going through an Emperor's Children/Fulgrim stage currently!!



Baron Spikey said:


> Oh Child I'm so disappointed in you :grin:
> 
> The picture of the Emperor on the Golden Throne (with 2 arms) is on P.11 of the 3rd Edition BRB


Bah! Im a student (that excuse gets you out of every situation!) 

But apart from that, there is other illustrations (fanart probably) that show him with one arm.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Oh Child I'm so disappointed in you :grin:
> 
> The picture of the Emperor on the Golden Throne (with 2 arms) is on P.11 of the 3rd Edition BRB


ARHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yet another instance of 40k contradicting itself!:ireful2:


----------



## Jeanms_247 (Mar 3, 2010)

That's fluff for you
Ok, next question
Were the traitors launching from Mars if they invaded ? because if they did, how come they didn't use any of the cool weapons that's bound to be lying around
Also, what were the daemons present during the siege/their roles/famous ones. I remember reading once that Sanguinis took on hundreds of them but I can't find that page on wikipedia anymore


----------



## Index Astartes (Feb 28, 2010)

I remember reading that Doom breed was present at the seige.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Jeanms_247 said:


> Were the traitors launching from Mars if they invaded ? because if they did, how come they didn't use any of the cool weapons that's bound to be lying around


Well they rendezvoused at Mars from Isstvan V, so yeah you could say they launched their invasion from there. Well as for the weapons that the Dark Mechanicus possessed, if they could have been used, im sure they were.



Jeanms_247 said:


> Also, what were the daemons present during the siege/their roles/famous ones. I remember reading once that Sanguinis took on hundreds of them but I can't find that page on wikipedia anymore


Yeah there were lots of Daemons present. Ka'Bandha is the Bloodthirster that fought Sanguinius (who for the record owned him at Signus Prime and let him live!).

And Doombreed was hanging on the _Vengeful Spirit._


----------



## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> ARHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yet another instance of 40k contradicting itself!:ireful2:


Is the Arm attached? I'm sure i've seen artwork (It could be fan art so don't take this as fact) of the Emp on his throne with his severed mummified arm laying next to him.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well if it is attached in a BRB, as Baron said.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Only the 3rd Edition, I checked my 4th edition BRB and couldn't find that particular piece of artwork anywhere- but it's one of the pieces that was produced alongside that 'famous' picture of the walk to the Eternity Gate with all those banners alongside the steps.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Warp Gods are on a whole different level to even the Emperor.
> 
> An indicator of this is in _A Thousand Sons_, when Magnus states that the Emperor bargained with the Chaos Gods, but would never face them.


In HH:FG, during the vision Horus has, Erebus mentions that once the emperor accumulated a portion of the chaos powers, they couldn't face *him *directly.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> In HH:FG, during the vision Horus has, Erebus mentions that once the emperor accumulated a portion of the chaos powers, they couldn't face *him *directly.


Not exactly.

It says that they were unable to reclaim their powers that the Emperor stole, not that they wouldn't face him.



False Gods Page 293 said:


> The Emperor had taken a measure of their power for himself, but they struck back at him...





False Gods Page 293 said:


> with the power he stole from them, he was too powerful to attack directly...


This fits in neatly with what is said in _A Thousand Sons_. The Emperor knew that the Warp Gods were too powerful to face, so he decieved them and stole a measure of their power (so the story goes), the Warp Gods unable to strike back at him directly (because of the power he stole) due to their apparent limited understanding/influence in Real Space, instead attacked the one element of his plan that he needed in order to succeed; The Primarchs.

Personally I hold that this theory is correct, the Emperor did bargain with the Chaos Gods and did still a measure of their power, which he subsequently used in the creation of the Primarchs.

But we shouldn't hold that against him, from the Emperor's perspective it was great that he was able to steal a measure of their power, they are meant to be the arch-enemies of Humanity after all


----------



## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

but look were it got him!


----------



## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Since the Chaos Gods can usually rescind their gifts or turn you into spawn if you displease them, it makes me wonder how the Emperor could have stolen anything from them. There is also the matter of Chaos pacts utterly corrupting you, yet the Emperor was somehow not corrupted. If indeed he did make such pacts and Magnus isn't simply mistaken about it.

Back to the Siege, it occurs to me that Chaos should have won that fight. Remember that the Eternity Gate was nearly breached when Imperial reinforcements arrived, leading Horus to drop his shields. If the Emperor's Children had spent the 2 months of the Siege attacking the Imperial Palace rather than gallivanting about raping and pillaging, I think they would have breached the Palace's inner defenses with time to spare and slaughtered the defenders inside. Total victory but for the lack of discipline of the troops under Horus' command.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

randian said:


> Since the Chaos Gods can usually rescind their gifts or turn you into spawn if you displease them, it makes me wonder how the Emperor could have stolen anything from them.


The power the Emperor supposedly 'stole' wasn't a gift though, he bargained with them and then somehow decieved them (apparently due to their limited understanding of Real Space). And then (with this stolen power) he was 'too powerful' for 'them to strike directly'. You have to remember that the Emperor isn't your run of the mill, normal psyker, he is the most powerful human Psyker ever, perhaps even the most powerful Psyker ever. This coupled with the power he was able to steal from them puts him beyond their reach to effect directly.



randian said:


> There is also the matter of Chaos pacts utterly corrupting you, yet the Emperor was somehow not corrupted.


Says who? For all we know he was. 

But Chaos triumphed in the Heresy and got their revenge anyway.



randian said:


> Back to the Siege, it occurs to me that Chaos should have won that fight. Remember that the Eternity Gate was nearly breached when Imperial reinforcements arrived, leading Horus to drop his shields. If the Emperor's Children had spent the 2 months of the Siege attacking the Imperial Palace rather than gallivanting about raping and pillaging, I think they would have breached the Palace's inner defenses with time to spare and slaughtered the defenders inside. Total victory but for the lack of discipline of the troops under Horus' command.


Indeed. But there were more important things to be done in the III Legion's eyes 

Although the Siege resulted in a loss for the _Chaos Space Marines_ and _Horus_. It resulted in a clear victory for _Chaos_ itself.


----------



## AgentOrange24 (Mar 25, 2010)

The very last page of CV has a picture of a "corpse" on a giant throne.

Is that the Emperor? No idea, but not sure who else it would be.

He also has both arms.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yep that the big cheese, arms either a bionic or the artist missed out that he had lost an arm.


----------



## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

I think its in the 5th edition Rulebook a picture of the Emperor sitting on the Throne (as a corpse) with 2 hands. I can imagine they tried their best to save him, so why not attach his arm back and then hear him say "Give up and put me over there!"


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

AgentOrange24 said:


> The very last page of CV has a picture of a "corpse" on a giant throne.
> 
> Is that the Emperor? No idea, but not sure who else it would be.
> 
> He also has both arms.





Angel of Blood said:


> Yep that the big cheese, arms either a bionic or the artist missed out that he had lost an arm.





forkmaster said:


> I think its in the 5th edition Rulebook a picture of the Emperor sitting on the Throne (as a corpse) with 2 hands. I can imagine they tried their best to save him, so why not attach his arm back and then hear him say "Give up and put me over there!"


That picture has been around for about 13 years- at least- come this summer as it's in the front of the 3rd Edition Rulebook as well.


----------



## AgentOrange24 (Mar 25, 2010)

Well, I guess after 13 years, and no one saying "waiiiiit a minute here..." it's safe to say the arm was intact?

I mean... its possible to have your arm "come out of socket" and not be ripped the eff off.

The things that get discussed on here.


----------



## Cowlicker16 (Dec 7, 2010)

I like to imagine my Emperor with only 1 arm but dressed in something classy, we buried people in tux's and all the Big E got was some robes.


----------



## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

I find the lack of critical thinking on the part of those that take creedence in the passages where _*chaos*_ or _*its servants*_ ( both who will lie) is showing a vision of events in order to seduce someone into chaos service as being the truth of events sad.

If someone was prone to lying, had an ulterior motive, and their story was even somewhat questionable, would you believe them?

This is the case here, Chaos was trying to seduce the word bearers, and through them, horus, both with a fictionalised version of events. If you look at the first heretic, there are many references to the emperor as the adversary of chaos, it does not make any sense that he would make a deal with them if he was their adversary.


----------



## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Regarding the Titan Legion during the seige: 2 traitor Titan Legions named (other than Legio Mortis - Deaths Heads) are the Flaming Skulls and the Storm Lords. I find it very ironic that the White Scars who possibly encountered the Storm Lords traitor titans during the seige, chose to name one of their successor chapters the Storm Lords.


----------



## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Son of mortarion said:


> I find the lack of critical thinking on the part of those that take creedence in the passages where _*chaos*_ or _*its servants*_ ( both who will lie) is showing a vision of events in order to seduce someone into chaos service as being the truth of events sad.
> 
> If someone was prone to lying, had an ulterior motive, and their story was even somewhat questionable, would you believe them?


The truth is much more convincing than even the best crafted lie and the Gods know this. They will rarely outright lie to their followers (or future followers) but instead choose their words (or lack there of) very carefully. So while the messenger is untrustworthy that doesn't necessarily make the message false. The Boy who cried Wolf being a classic example of exactly this. 

That is also not to mention the fact that there are other details presented that would certainly suggest that at least portions of the story is true. The Emperor's door is painted with runes that makes the brain itchy (a common feature of chaos runes), the Gods were able to gain access to the Primarchs somehow (despite the pods and room being sheilded), etc. 



> This is the case here, Chaos was trying to seduce the word bearers, and through them, horus, both with a fictionalised version of events. If you look at the first heretic, there are many references to the emperor as the adversary of chaos, it does not make any sense that he would make a deal with them if he was their adversary.


Chaos beleives the Emperor is their enemy* after* he steals from them. We don't know how they fealt about him before hand. Further the Emperor's dislike of Chaos is not a reason for him not to bargain with them, particularily if he intends to betray them. The Emperor has proven himself to be ever the pragmatist, if he beleived he could gain additional power (power without which his plan would have failed) he will do so, provided it does not conflict with his ultimate goal.

Personnally I think the Emperor simply managed to draw a fair deal of power out of the warp (possibly from the Gods themselves). The Gods took this to be 'theft' as the power was theirs to begin with and also breaking their previous 'bargain' which would have been a "i don't hurt you you don't hurt me" kinda deal. Thus by careful wording of the message they can turn the Emperor from merely a powerful scientist/psyker into a backstabbing, powerhungry git. Semantics can be a truely powerful weapon in the right (or wrong) hands.


----------



## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

You proved my point by parroting the same lame, half thought out crap.


----------



## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Son of mortarion said:


> You proved my point by parroting the same lame, half thought out crap.


Are you talking about my acceptance of the vision? Because if so I think you missed the bulk of my point. I do think critically about it. I don't even take it at face value. All I said was that just because it comes from a daemon doesn't make it a lie. I think there is a kernel of truth in there and don't think the visions should be dismissed out of hand just because of their source. If anything you are the one showing a lack of critical thinking. Something need not be either true or false, there are shades of gray for this kind of thing.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Remember the boy who cried wolf lied alot, hence why his sorry ass got ate. So i don't really see the analogy there. The chaos gods rarely lie? Of course they do, they will lie, bend the truth, manipulate and decieve their enemies or subject all the time. I myself believe the 'visions' shown to individuals like Horus and Argel Tal were false and just more lies of the gods, because that is exactly the kind of thing they would do. If the gods could place whole squads of Word Bearers or Horus right in the middle of the Emperors most heavily guarded chamber in existence, then why can't they place their followers in other areas, inside the walls of Terra for example.

Ultimately it's your choice whether to believe them or not. For my part, i don't.


----------



## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Remember the boy who cried wolf lied alot, hence why his sorry ass got ate. So i don't really see the analogy there. The chaos gods rarely lie? Of course they do, they will lie, bend the truth, manipulate and decieve their enemies or subject all the time.


The boy who cried wolf lied alot. So every one automatically dismissed what he said. Yet he was telling the truth at least once. Just because someone lies a lot (which I fully admit the Gods do) doesn't automatically make everything they say a lie. That's the analogy I was trying to make.

Beyond that, you're welcome to your opinion.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

You stated in your post that they rarely lie, which is where the boy who cried wolf analogy doesnt fit, as he did the opposite. 

And indeed, the rest of it considering the visions is all subjective, its purposefully written i imagine so that people will take different stances.


----------



## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> You stated in your post that they rarely lie, which is where the boy who cried wolf analogy doesnt fit, as he did the opposite.


I said outright lie, but fair enough. Regardless of source a statement cannot simply be dismissed out of hand. 



> And indeed, the rest of it considering the visions is all subjective, its purposefully written i imagine so that people will take different stances.


Almost certainly, which is why threads like this exist. And why I think the Heresy team is doing a good job of it.


----------



## Justindkates (Apr 30, 2010)

Way back in the ancient times Realm of Chaos, and I don't remember which book either Slaves to Darkness or Lost and the Damned it has a short story about the fight between Horus and the Emperor. 

The Emperor was holding back and Horus beat the hell out of him, ripped his arm off and burned half his face off then a Terminator ran in to help and Horus killed him and when the Emperor was laying on the ground he saw that Horus was gone and not his son any longer then he destroyed him with the psychic blast. 

Granted this fluff is probably 25 years old and subject to change these days.


----------



## Justindkates (Apr 30, 2010)

Ok its the Lost and the Damned page 182. Anyone know if I can upload a file? I got a scan of it.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well thats still pretty much how the fight went down in all other versions. Emperor holding back, Horus ripping him several new ones, then a guardsman/Imperial Fist/Custode runs in, gets atomised by Horus, Emperor realises Horus is too far gone and proceeds to obliterate him entirely. 

Only thing that changes really is the form the soldier takes who runs in. Latest stories have it as a Custode, the ones before that an Imperial Fist and the really old ones are a guardsman called Ollanius Pious if memory serves. I'm placing my bets on Valdor, Amon or Haedo being the Custode who gets fucked when the Horus Heresy book about it eventually comes out.


----------



## Justindkates (Apr 30, 2010)

Its funny in the Lost and the Damned it says "Rogal Dorn the black haired Primarch" and all the HH fluff says his hair is white. 

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of things change when they get around to the battle of Terra.


----------



## nate187 (Feb 2, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Not exactly.
> 
> It says that they were unable to reclaim their powers that the Emperor stole, not that they wouldn't face him.
> 
> ...


Damn COE! your good but I wonder if a HH book from the Big E's perspecitive or possibly Malcador the Sigillite (they were close and the whole grey knights codex last order thing) could shed some light on his intention towards the Chaos gods was or what exactly happened.

I wonder?


----------



## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Justindkates said:


> Its funny in the Lost and the Damned it says "Rogal Dorn the black haired Primarch" and all the HH fluff says his hair is white.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of things change when they get around to the battle of Terra.


His hair isnt the only thing thats been brought up. We have the Lions hair as well and Magnus eye where it should be seated and the way he lost it.


----------



## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

forkmaster said:


> His hair isnt the only thing thats been brought up. We have the Lions hair as well and Magnus eye where it should be seated and the way he lost it.


In Magnus' defense his physical appearance is hardly constant throughout _A Thousand Sons_ and seems to be largely dependent on his psykic powers.


----------

