# How Serious/Flexiable are you with fluff?



## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

All righty then, the thread title says it all. How serious do you take you fluff?

Are you one of those guys who goes all butt hurt when someone else doesn't take the back story too seriously? 

Or are you one of those people who like bend the will of the establish fluff just enough to make it more interesting or more fun?

Or in last case do you read all the fluff and then go into lulz mode because the grimydarkyness is almost on par with just plain stupid?


For me I don't take it all that seriously at times. Sure I will follow the majority of principles when it comes to writing and homebrew, but then again, its fantasy in space with all sorts of silly undertones at times.

Your thoughts?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I am a disciple of the school of srsbizness fluff.

I don't mind a few deviations in order to promote new changes/lore but when you have CS Goto Space Marines using multi-colored lazer beams and with back flipping terminators or have Grey Knights getting beatup by ordinary women Ben Counter style, then I have an issue.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I accept the fluff for what it is.


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## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> I accept the fluff for what it is.


This is seconded.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I'm one of the anal, pedantic and oh so serious adherents to the fluff. Which is why i seldom go into the homebrew section as i wouldn't have anything nice to say. (homebrew is unfortunately so often like bad fan fiction).

This also extends to my view of posting in the fluff section of this board, as some non serious topics or when people go off topic annoy me.

That said i'm willing to extend outlandish theories or alternate ideas as long as there is adequate evidence.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Rems said:


> That said i'm willing to extend outlandish theories or alternate ideas as long as there is adequate evidence.


See, I will accept some outlandish theories simply because there is no evidence against it. After all homebrew and theories aren`t canon, so until they`re disproven they are a fun and useful tool for writing fluff and fiction. 

On the whole though, I stick with gw sanctioned canon as the basis for any fluff I use or write.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Every time someone mentions chaos Grey Knights I am forced to kill an innocent little kitten...


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

And yet I find that more believable than unaugmented women manhandling them.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

The fluff makes the game for me. Without it there is nothing and i would play flames of war instead. I like the fact that the fluff is evolving but there are some bits that irk me. ie. It has been decided that squats are silly so they have been eaten by the tyranids and there were no survivors.
Blood angels/ necron brofist followed by the rework of the necron fluff to accomodate it.
The strange fate of the zoats.

The main people who piss me off when they don't take the fluff seriously are codex writers.


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

I am one of those people who are a real big ****hole when it comes to fluff, I take it incredibly seriously, however this is strange as i often get alot of it wrong, so i take CotE's word as law.


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## Sem'ael Elear (Nov 6, 2011)

I love fluff, my friend and I used to get into large discussions about 40k fluff and still do quite often so we both take it fairly seriously


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

cegorach said:


> I am one of those people who are a real big ****hole when it comes to fluff, I take it incredibly seriously, however this is strange as i often get alot of it wrong, so i take CotE's word as law.


Oh ffs! He`s not _that_ brilliant. :shok:


I`m pretty fluff smart too ya know... :cray:


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## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

Yeah but at least he doesn't say he knows everything about anything 04k.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I'm serious about fluff where it's clearly stated that such and such would/wouldn't happen but I certainly don't mind theorising about the grey areas of 40k (of which there are many). I sort of enjoy the Homebrew area, you can easily find out who's well versed in 40K lore and who isn't just by the sort of army backgrounds they make.

Edit: I also get a little thrill everytime I see a homebrew that has used The Chapter Background Generator


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

High_Seraph said:


> Yeah but at least he doesn't say he knows everything about anything 04k.


Neither do I, I pride myself on being a xenos specialist nothing more.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

I began with Rogue Trader and over the decades the fluff has changed considerably; the introduction of 40K roleplaying created ever greater possible conflicts. I resolve this by viewing official fluff as opinion evidence rather than objective fact. Where many sources all say the same thing (such as Space Marines being much stronger than ordinary people) I expect a deviation from that to come with a good explanation.

Where there are no canon statements about something then I am generally mellow about what people want the answer to be.

I have no problem with someone building their army with no background, but expect the same consideration of my approach in return so might argue about fluff when someone tells me that I should change my interpretation (or even ignore fluff) to make my army more competitive.


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Oh ffs! He`s not _that_ brilliant. :shok:
> 
> 
> I`m pretty fluff smart too ya know... :cray:



Sorry mate, I didn't think it would insult other people if I complimented someone else, sheesh I just shouldn't say anything anymore.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

cegorach said:


> Sorry mate, I didn't think it would insult other people if I complimented someone else, sheesh I just shouldn't say anything anymore.


No Serpion is just feeling delicate because no matter how great he becomes he'll always have that sinking feeling that CotE, and by extension myself, are better :laugh:


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Background, fluff, canon, is a great method for me to vent my frustration on forum members who're pricks, and are usually wrong.


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## General-jwj (Sep 22, 2011)

I take the fluff seriously but love speculation (be it baseless or not). I also like discussing the various possible interpretations of some of the more ambiguous sections of our beloved Galaxy's history.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

I am the kind who will happily bend the fluff over backside and do terrible things to it if it conflicts my interests...

Well okay, maybe not THAT badly. I don't warp the reality of the setting altogether- however, I will happily ignore small blurbs of fluff, especially "TAU STERILIZE THEY'RE EVIL" *semi-fluff from Relic, who usually make a mess of fluff* and things like Necron Warriors screaming when 'killed' .- especially if it drives fluffnazis crazy.

I paid for these plastic army men, I'll damn well do what I want with them in my own little world.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

cegorach said:


> Sorry mate, I didn't think it would insult other people if I complimented someone else, sheesh I just shouldn't say anything anymore.


Not sure if serious, so I will just say I was taking the piss. Any projected insecurity was intended as a joke.  



Baron Spikey said:


> No Serpion is just feeling delicate because no matter how great he becomes he'll always have that sinking feeling that CotE, and by extension myself, are better :laugh:


:rofl: 

Aheh heh. That may have been true. For the first few months of my time here. Maybe. But we all know better now. :spiteful:  



C'Tan Chimera said:


> I am the kind who will happily bend the fluff over backside and do terrible things to it if it conflicts my interests...
> 
> Well okay, maybe not THAT badly. I don't warp the reality of the setting altogether- however, I will happily ignore small blurbs of fluff, especially "TAU STERILIZE THEY'RE EVIL" *semi-fluff from Relic, who usually make a mess of fluff* and things like Necron Warriors screaming when 'killed' .- especially if it drives fluffnazis crazy.
> 
> I paid for these plastic army men, I'll damn well do what I want with them in my own little world.


lol! Necrons scream when they die?!


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## GeneralSturnn (Feb 20, 2011)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> things like Necron Warriors screaming when 'killed' .- especially if it drives fluffnazis crazy.



According to Dawn of War, Necrons sound like flushing toilets when ordered to move or die, lol.


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## General-jwj (Sep 22, 2011)

GeneralSturnn said:


> According to Dawn of War, Necrons sound like flushing toilets when ordered to move or die, lol.


A lot of things have been shown or said in DoW that we'd do better to forget, as a collective of fans :laugh:


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## the_man_with_plan (May 3, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I am a disciple of the school of srsbizness fluff.
> 
> I don't mind a few deviations in order to promote new changes/lore but when you have CS Goto Space Marines using multi-colored lazer beams and with back flipping terminators or have Grey Knights getting beatup by ordinary women Ben Counter style, then I have an issue.


i'm pretty much like this.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Im a fluff-nazy, I go by the books and strict lines, Im fearly not interested in these joke threads that pop up now and then or whenever someone writes "Speehz mehrins" I grind my teeth. 

I do take fluff seriously, but its nice with theories as I have many certain of my own. I also ignore fluff I consider too wild out of line or completely wrong to the fluff already established (Goto for instance, or Matt Ward).

I also look over faults or mistakes (Outcast Dead timeline fuck up for instance or the varying Legion sizes which by now has been established kinda), I simply see it as a continuation, but Magnus did arrive at Terra BEFORE Isstvan III was done until there comes a certain good explanation like "The Warp works in mysterious ways, when Magnus tried to contact Terra it was on Prospero still before Isstvan III was burned the last time, but when his "_ghost_" appeared in front of the Emperor, then did he know he was too late!"

But Im also open for changes at the same time. Necrons for instance have gotten some personallity and I think neutering C'Tan Gods was a good thing, since they were immortal and could only be killed by each other, so why would they bother on a tiny little bit of battle?


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## AzraelCorvus (May 13, 2011)

General-jwj said:


> A lot of things have been shown or said in DoW that we'd do better to forget, as a collective of fans :laugh:


I guess, since I'm a relative newcomer to 40k fluff, I don't entirely get this. I actually had little interest in 40k until playing Dawn of War exposed me to the setting, and have loved it ever since, so I guess I'm missing something here >_>


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

Take it seriously?

Dude, it has SPACE elfs with guns that shoot ninja stars.

This is why the translated name for my eldar craftworld is "those who sit around the fire and sing songs of past glories". 

I don't take ANY of it seriously.


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## Apfeljunge (May 1, 2011)

AzraelCorvus said:


> I guess, since I'm a relative newcomer to 40k fluff, I don't entirely get this. I actually had little interest in 40k until playing Dawn of War exposed me to the setting, and have loved it ever since, so I guess I'm missing something here >_>


The Dawn of war games ARE really great and capture the essence of the setting quite well imho. They got me into 40k and many others, too, BUT they do tend to take some "liberties" with the fluff and some other things are just bad quality writing. 
The worst offender here is clearly DoW: Soulstorm, but the other games aren't completly innocent on that front as well.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

I enjoy the established fluff of the core materials and more recently have started absorbing information from the Black Library's books as well. 

But am I a stickler about it? Not really. If I want to play a 2-on-2 game with my Sisters and my partner is playing Tyranids I'll play regardless of what the fluff says. I play to enjoy the game not to nitpick the fluff, especially when the fluff is regularly evolving and changing.


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## AzraelCorvus (May 13, 2011)

Apfeljunge said:


> The Dawn of war games ARE really great and capture the essence of the setting quite well imho. They got me into 40k and many others, too, BUT they do tend to take some "liberties" with the fluff and some other things are just bad quality writing.
> The worst offender here is clearly DoW: Soulstorm, but the other games aren't completly innocent on that front as well.


Fair enough. I can overlook some of the fluff contradictions, as long as the game and its story are fun. I'll admit that Dark Crusade and Soulstorm weren't my favorites, simply because there wasn't much of a story, period. Out of the original, Dawn of War and Winter Assault were definitely the better as far as story goes, though I really enjoyed the storyline in DoW II.

To answer the original question, I do take fluff fairly seriously, and when I try to work on fluff for my personal army I do try to work within established fluff. Still, I'm the first to admit when I don't know much about a particular subject


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

chromedog said:


> Take it seriously?
> 
> Dude, it has SPACE elfs with guns that shoot ninja stars.
> 
> ...


You are a brave man to admit to such a thing, and I thank you.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

I'm pretty flexible - I think you *have* to be, given the nature of the 40k setting. 40k fluff started as a very simple background for the tabletop, which understandably took precedence. 26 years later, however, the fluff is trying to expand in complexity and scope, fleshing out the details that make you scratch your head or straight up laugh out loud and making everything more grey (as opposed to black and white). This evolving process means a lot of things are going to be questionable, but still perhaps true, so you should keep an open mind (realistically).


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## vipertaja (Mar 20, 2010)

I am pretty strict about fluff, though obviously some interpretation and flexibility is required even then. People can do whatever they damn well please with their own background material and such, though I usually won't care for it too much. I won't get on their case about it if they insist on going contrary to fluff, I'll just ignore it.

Things like "my 40k is lighthearted and my space marine loves sunny days and dates a sister of battle childhood friend" piss me off, but I won't bother commenting on it if I can help myself. To each their own. 



chromedog said:


> This is why the translated name for my eldar craftworld is "those who sit around the fire and sing songs of past glories".


You write this as if it's the height of goofiness, but I don't really see anything wrong with a name like that. Eldar are all about singing songs of past glories. Probably in a more sorrowful and nostalgic way than you intended, but nonetheless.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

General-jwj said:


> I take the fluff seriously but love speculation (be it baseless or not). I also like discussing the various possible interpretations of some of the more ambiguous sections of our beloved Galaxy's history.


This is exactly how I feel. I love the little one line throw away's throughout the fluff, and the passing mentions. Theres so much room to do your own thing in 40K. And come up with your own theories.


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

vipertaja said:


> You write this as if it's the height of goofiness, but I don't really see anything wrong with a name like that. Eldar are all about singing songs of past glories. Probably in a more sorrowful and nostalgic way than you intended, but nonetheless.


Nope, it's meant in a light-hearted, piss-taking ironic form.
As in they sit around bemoaning their fate instead of getting out and doing something about it. Sure, they created a god and their civilisation died as a result (which I quite like the idea of, religion=bad), but they aren't dead yet.

People who know me know my position on pointless bitching about stuff.

You can sit around and do this, serving no purpose, or you can DO something constructive about it.

You don't have to win, but you can make it harder for them to.


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## stevey293 (Aug 16, 2011)

I dont play only loosely follow threads on here and paint. I do however think the fluff is amazing and so in depth. But when it comes to the game i wouldn't take fluff seriously im too competitive for that (big part of why i dont play).


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

This is how the fluff rolls to me at times


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

chromedog said:


> ...they created a god and their civilisation died as a result (which I quite like the idea of, religion=bad)....


They created a God by egocentric pleasure seeking of the sort that could be prevented by adherence to an external moral code so it could also be interpreted as viewing "yourself as the only arbiter of moral action=bad".

This is one of the reasons why I find the GW fluff so engaging: it has enough depth and complexity to make in-wrold discussionsa of philosophy as worthwhile as real world philosophy.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

ThatOtherGuy said:


> This is how the fluff rolls to me at times


That picture was genius.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

I like fluff a lot and enjoy reading it considerably. I don't take it too seriously however. Sticking rigidly to something that changes from one edition to the next (or one novel to another) is... frankly silly in my mind. It's even funnier when people get upset about it and will engage in pages long debates about some niggling detail. When this happens I sit back and sip at some sort of classy drink while giggling as people rage at one another over something that doesn't matter. It's the absolute height of comedy when a debate reaches CAPS LOCK levels of seriousness or where moderators have to get involved.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

In denial are we? It's funny how you bash the people who engage in fluff debates and yet you paint toys. And $20 wine after a discount from Walgreens or whatever the Canadian equivalent is does not count as a classy drink.

In the immortal words of Serpion5, get over yourself.


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## GeneralSturnn (Feb 20, 2011)

Apfeljunge said:


> The Dawn of war games ARE really great and capture the essence of the setting quite well imho. They got me into 40k and many others, too, BUT they do tend to take some "liberties" with the fluff and some other things are just bad quality writing.
> The worst offender here is clearly DoW: Soulstorm, but the other games aren't completly innocent on that front as well.



SoulStorm was made as a:"Here's a bunch of planets, go blow shit up" Dark Crusade failed in that it tried(unsuccessfully) to make Dawn of War into Risk.

Dawn of War was epic, Dawn of War II tried the risk venture and succeeded because it made every territory feel important and apart of the story.


But SoulStorm, IMO didn't try for a story it just tried for a campaign of blowing everything up.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Malus Darkblade said:


> In denial are we? It's funny how you bash the people who engage in fluff debates and yet you paint toys. And $20 wine after a discount from Walgreens or whatever the Canadian equivalent is does not count as a classy drink.
> 
> In the immortal words of Serpion5, get over yourself.


You seem upset. Did I strike a nerve?

I'm not talking about people who will reasonably discuss something. I'm more interested in the people who get super heated about it and will stoop to the level of throwing insults, CAPS LOCKing and getting so out of hand that outside intervention is needed for things to get back on track. I don't care what you say because it _is_ funny.

Also I'm more into martinis, was never a wine drinker. :thank_you:


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Rems said:


> I'm one of the anal, pedantic and oh so serious adherents to the fluff. Which is why i seldom go into the homebrew section as i wouldn't have anything nice to say. (homebrew is unfortunately so often like bad fan fiction).
> 
> This also extends to my view of posting in the fluff section of this board, as some non serious topics or when people go off topic annoy me.
> 
> That said i'm willing to extend outlandish theories or alternate ideas as long as there is adequate evidence.


Oh i dunno about that, remember 40K was at one point someones homebrew idea that made it into established fluff, that you are anal, pedantic and seriously adhere too.


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## vipertaja (Mar 20, 2010)

Achaylus72 said:


> Oh i dunno about that, remember 40K was at one point someones homebrew idea that made it into established fluff, that you are anal, pedantic and seriously adhere too.


Well, isn't this true for just about everything in human culture? :wink:


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

This was a fun thread to read once. 

Has everyone forgotten that this is a game we`re talking about? 

Get over yo- :shok: 

nevermind.


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## General-jwj (Sep 22, 2011)

It's more than a game I want to believe the magical space skeletons and extraterrestrial elves are reeeeeeaaaal


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## vipertaja (Mar 20, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> This was a fun thread to read once.
> 
> Has everyone forgotten that this is a game we`re talking about?
> 
> ...



Shut up. This is :hq:*SERIOUS BUSINESS*:hq:.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> I'm not talking about people who will reasonably discuss something. I'm more interested in the people who get super heated about it and will stoop to the level of throwing insults, CAPS LOCKing and getting so out of hand that outside intervention is needed for things to get back on track. I don't care what you say because it _is_ funny.


Thankfully, I haven't seen much of that on these boards. While there are some ridiculous theories here, and there are certainly arguments, they're (usually) handled pretty nicely. Some swearing, some insults, but no rage-driven CAPS LOCK RAMPAGE!!!!!!!! or anything like that.


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

vipertaja said:


> Shut up. This is :hq:*SERIOUS BUSINESS*:hq:.


That is very true!

After all buying tiny plastic soldiers that don't actually exsist for inflated prices and then spending hours putting them together to play short games with a random guy in a tiny shop that brain washes you into spending alot more money is...very...serious.

(without a single full stop, I did not pause once during the typing of that and neither should you)


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> lol! Necrons scream when they die?!


Well, Warriors at least according to the new codex. Though they leave it open as to whether or not they're actually feeling pain or simply demoralizing opponents. 40k will be 40k- and by that I mean about as consistent as an upside down backwards Chinese Bible in brail that was translated into Russian through an online translator.


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## vipertaja (Mar 20, 2010)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> and by that I mean about as consistent as an upside down backwards Chinese Bible in brail that was translated into Russian through an online translator.


But does it have half the pages missing? :wink:

As for the necron death scream...as I see it, it's more like an electronic screeching signal...like some of the harsher sounds out of an old modem or such...not pain. My take on it anyways. It's suggested it may be an alarm to other necrons?


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## tsne16487 (Aug 5, 2011)

I enjoy reading the black library books.

However the fluff should NEVER EVER EVER affect a game you are playing. Even fluff in your own codex has absolutely Zero relevance to your armies capabilities or tactical style. This is decided by each troop choices wargear and special rules if any, or individual army rules, these are part of the greater ruleset laid out in the rulebook. This is what the game you are playing is based on.

There are too many Fluff nazis out there who think they can tell you what you should and shouldnt do with something you have paid alot of money for. If you want to have chaos grey knights then you can, except they can only follow the ruleset from the standard grey knights codex as htere isnt a chaos grey knights codex. If you dont like it, its called tough shit. If you want to have a Pink Knights army, then you can. The grey knights codex is a set of rules and troop choices for a grey knights type army.

Fluff Nazis are at their worst when they call stuff at tournaments and band together and refuse to play if such and such insits on playing his Benetton MultiColoured Knights army.

There was a kid on MiniWargaming forum that apparently was kicked out of a tournament because he had used necron guns on his ork miniatures because he liked the look of them. He WASNT claiming they should be fired as Gauss Weapons, they were to be treated as normal sluggas or whatever, but the three Resident Fluff Nazis of the Games Store when the comp was held refused to allow him to play, so he had to get back on the bus and spend three hours travelling home without playing a single game. Dont know if this story is true exactly but this is what he claimed on the forums, and to be honest Ive seen this type of attitude myself, not to this degree but still.

This is the problem with adhering too strictly to fluff. Fluff is great when youre reading a book and your imagination is running wild, but the rules are what is important when playing the actual game. If you choose to invoke fluff when designing YOUR army then thats great, but you shouldnt expect everyone do as you do. Unless you can show an actual quote from Games Workshop that says you CANNOT have a Pink Knights army then deal with it, play the game, shut up and enjoy.


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## General-jwj (Sep 22, 2011)

The Gauss Flayer thing is called WYSIWYG, or "what you see is what you get". I've never taken part in a tournament, but I hear it's a pretty big deal.

Unless you're playing with friends or just generally enjoying a friendly game on a saturday afternoon with someone who doesn't care, what is on the figure is supposed to count literally (at least I think).

So if, say, you model an Imperial Guard sergeant with an augmetic arm from the Platoon Command kit (the one holding an Energy Sword) because you think augmetic arms are cool, but don't have points to spend on such an upgrade and simply want it to be "a regular chainsword", you could get in trouble.

Or I could be spewing nonsense because I've never taken part in an official prize-at-the-end game of 40K.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

tsne16487 said:


> I enjoy reading the black library books.
> 
> However the fluff should NEVER EVER EVER affect a game you are playing. Even fluff in your own codex has absolutely Zero relevance to your armies capabilities or tactical style. This is decided by each troop choices wargear and special rules if any, or individual army rules, these are part of the greater ruleset laid out in the rulebook. This is what the game you are playing is based on.


It was that way in the beginning. But then the GW makers outdid themselves with their creativity, a book or two was released to see if it had a potential market and the rest is history. Now dare I say the books outsell or are close to outselling the toy market. 

When is the last time the game got as much recognition as some of the books that got on the NY times?



tsne16487 said:


> There are too many Fluff nazis out there who think they can tell you what you should and shouldnt do with something you have paid alot of money for. If you want to have chaos grey knights then you can, except they can only follow the ruleset from the standard grey knights codex as htere isnt a chaos grey knights codex. If you dont like it, its called tough shit. If you want to have a Pink Knights army, then you can. The grey knights codex is a set of rules and troop choices for a grey knights type army. Fluff Nazis are at their worst when they call stuff at tournaments and band together and refuse to play if such and such insits on playing his Benetton MultiColoured Knights army.





tsne16487 said:


> IThis is the problem with adhering too strictly to fluff. Fluff is great when youre reading a book and your imagination is running wild, but the rules are what is important when playing the actual game. If you choose to invoke fluff when designing YOUR army then thats great, but you shouldnt expect everyone do as you do. Unless you can show an actual quote from Games Workshop that says you CANNOT have a Pink Knights army then deal with it, play the game, shut up and enjoy.


If you disregard the fluff then you disregard the back story of your toys and with it the rules for they are based heavily on the fluff. The fluff however can completely survive without the table-top game. 

The game would not work if you could do anything you wanted with the lore.


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## tsne16487 (Aug 5, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> It was that way in the beginning. But then the GW makers outdid themselves with their creativity, a book or two was released to see if it had a potential market and the rest is history. Now dare I say the books outsell or are close to outselling the toy market.
> 
> When is the last time the game got as much recognition as some of the books that got on the NY times?


Are you serious???

The books (ALL OF THE BOOKS) are (horus heresy example) are advertised as the Million Selling Series. The total gross money sales of the books is the merest fraction of the tabletop game sales. Personally Ive bought 10 books in the last 12 months @£9.00 avg (some more some less) so thats £90 roughly on books. In the last 5 months Ive spent over £800 on Miniatures, scenery, Codices, Paint, Glue. If you look at the NY times as whats important then you must think Bill O-Reilly is the greatest living man on earth. Globally the tabletop game rapes the book sales of the black library, and Games Workshop could not survive if all it had to make it profit were the book sales. They are a garnish to the tabletop game, thats it.



Malus Darkblade said:


> If you disregard the fluff then you disregard the back story of your toys and with it the rules for they are based heavily on the fluff. The fluff however can completely survive without the table-top game.
> 
> The game would not work if you could do anything you wanted with the lore.


Biggest load of crap ive read on these forums, the fluff and the backstory has NOTHING to do with any toys, as the rules are not based on the fluff. Also when did anyone say you could do anything with the lore? No-one on here is saying you can give Marines re-animation prtotocols, no one is saying that you can give Eldar drop pods.

But you can do whatever you like with YOUR army if it adheres to the rules and regulations of your codex, including having My Little Pony rainbow knights, as long as you dont contravene the codex or game rules.

Show me the rule change that was added to the Space Marine codex because some of the fluff said that the 1st company (Ultramarines) died back to back for each other agains the tyranids. SHow me the rule that exists because Garviel Loken joined the mournival, where is the rule set that gives Eldar wraithlords special powers because one was killed and its soul trapped by Fulgrim, surely this would give them preferred enemy against space marines.

The rules are written FIRST, always first, the fluff is based on the rules, game designers design the new expansions and design rulesets for those expansions. If the game in question then has a sideline like the Black Library then the authors are given the new info and they are also allowed to contribute artistically, but they sure as hell DO NOT write or re-write rules. The novels come out around the same time as the new rules because that is a retail strategy, it does not mean that the novel was written first and then Games Workshop quickly scrambled around to design some new rules based on the latest fluff novel.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

tsne16487 said:


> Are you serious???
> 
> The books (ALL OF THE BOOKS) are (horus heresy example) are advertised as the Million Selling Series. The total gross money sales of the books is the merest fraction of the tabletop game sales. Personally Ive bought 10 books in the last 12 months @£9.00 avg (some more some less) so thats £90 roughly on books. In the last 5 months Ive spent over £800 on Miniatures, scenery, Codices, Paint, Glue. If you look at the NY times as whats important then you must think Bill O-Reilly is the greatest living man on earth. Globally the tabletop game rapes the book sales of the black library, and Games Workshop could not survive if all it had to make it profit were the book sales. They are a garnish to the tabletop game, thats it.


"Dare I say" does not imply fact but a personal opinion. None of us are privy to the sales figures of both franchises. However I would not have the audacity to claim that the books are as you put it 'garnish' in comparison to the monopoly game.



tsne16487 said:


> Biggest load of crap ive read on these forums


You haven't read enough posts then lol.



tsne16487 said:


> Also when did anyone say you could do anything with the lore? No-one on here is saying you can give Marines re-animation prtotocols, no one is saying that you can give Eldar drop pods.


And yet some advocate for female spehz muraynz or to buff the SoB into Grey Knight slayers (seewhatIdidthere) because they are offended that their personal preferences will never be implemented by GW or the masses.



tsne16487 said:


> But you can do whatever you like with YOUR army if it adheres to the rules and regulations of your codex, including having My Little Pony rainbow knights, as long as you dont contravene the codex or game rules.


The minority say this. Thankfully not the majority otherwise things would get chaotic and silly.



tsne16487 said:


> Show me the rule change that was added to the Space Marine codex because some of the fluff said that the 1st company (Ultramarines) died back to back for each other agains the tyranids. SHow me the rule that exists because Garviel Loken joined the mournival, where is the rule set that gives Eldar wraithlords special powers because one was killed and its soul trapped by Fulgrim, surely this would give them preferred enemy against space marines.
> 
> The fluff and the backstory has NOTHING to do with any toys, as the rules are not based on the fluff.
> 
> The rules are written FIRST, always first, the fluff is based on the rules, game designers design the new expansions and design rulesets for those expansions. If the game in question then has a sideline like the Black Library then the authors are given the new info and they are also allowed to contribute artistically, but they sure as hell DO NOT write or re-write rules. The novels come out around the same time as the new rules because that is a retail strategy, it does not mean that the novel was written first and then Games Workshop quickly scrambled around to design some new rules based on the latest fluff novel.


Sure they are. All the names/ideas are derived from the fluff and vice versa. The two are dependent on one another. 

However now the fluff/books have taken on a mind of their own while in the past, yes the monopoly version was a major driving force behind the fluff but that was in the past. 

Now it is not so one sided anymore for the fluff actually affects the game.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Does fluff influence how the rules-set operates within a game? No.

Does fluff influence the content of Codices? Definitely. For instance later editions of Space Marines gained "And They Shall Know No Fear" to make them closer to the description of fearless warriors.

As Malus indicates the fluff represents a significant part of the game for some people; if 40K was sold on the basis of rules alone I anticipate the player base would be much smaller. Thus some people do not enjoy a game if the fluff is ignored (or even just stretched too far) and have an equal right to an enjoyable game as those who do not care about fluff. There is thus a need for people to ensure all players have accepted the same basic level of fluff relevance. So, if the story about a player being excluded for having Necron guns is true and we have all the facts then it represents a failure by both parties: the tournament organisers should have made it clear in the pre-entry rules set that they were taking a strict stance on models; the player should have asked the organisers beforehand whether using gauss-rifles as sluggas was acceptable.


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## tsne16487 (Aug 5, 2011)

Hey dont get me wrong I love the fluff, and I love the backstory. Ive been playing since 1987. I love the idea of the lore and mythos of the universe and I love being able to play in that universe.

I dont mind people really getting into the Fluff, as I also think its cool. My problem comes from when someone may make a scene, or try and force and issue during a game, just because they have ready the latest novel and it said this and this, and therefore the army your playing against them cant have this and this. It just all gets a bit messy and to be honest silly.

When I play I dont mind who Im playing, or what theyre playing with as long as their army sticks to the rules laid downi n their codex. If they turn up with an Eldar force with some stormravens theyve stolen ( in their own fluff), or claim to have an orbital bombardment because they stormed an imperial cruiser (their fluff) then thats not on.

The rules are written down in each codex and the rulebook, these are the rules that affect the game. Theres nothing wrong with calling your Grey Knight army Chaos Grey Knights and painting them black or whatever, as long as you use the same ruleset for a normal grey knight army, as its the same ruleset. You can call your army what you like and paint them how you like as long as you stick to the rulebooks.

Theres nothing wrong with embracing the fluff but dont let it spoil the game, any game. Its a game with specific rules and in none of those rules does it say that you cannot have a mad psychadelic army, as long as you stick to the laid down rules.

Im personally against this female space marines nonsense but hey if someone wants to mold green stuff into Mammary Astartes, and mold little handbags onto their marines then Ill play them, as long as the stats and troop capabilities are the same as the ones listed in the Space Marines codex. Someone could even choose to have an entire company of Gay Marines painted in the rainbow equality colours, as long as those marines had the same stats and abilities listed in the space marine codex.


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## Apostle (Jun 29, 2012)

Honestly I care very little. Expecially when it comes to specific story fluff regarding battles (in the first and second ad. Codex/Rule Books etc...). As the stories are often so short that it leaves Writers with little to work with. If they change let's say a full belief system or maybe ERASE characters and major events then I get seriously irritated, though that's a little rare.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Without fluff and background and a storyline. Then we're all just silly children playing with plastic dolls.

No offense intended.


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## Atzunew (Jun 11, 2012)

It depends on the fluff in question for me. If it is something like the missing primarchs I wouldn't want writers touching it with a 10 ft poll. If it is something like organization of a guard regiment then I would encourage them to be creative. All they need to do is stay within the suspension of belief of the fluff and I'm golden.

~Atzunew


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## Obinhi (Dec 30, 2008)

I enjoy reading the fluff alot, and I try to stick to it personally. I play kan walls because I like to take meks as HQ. I reason there is no way the warboss is going to let a couple of nut jobs lead 90 boys into a fight with out him being there. 

That said I never call people out for taking say, 6 dreads in a SM army. I could point out that there is no way in the fluff that that meny of them would be in one place at one time, but whats the point? The dude wants to play with the modles he likes, and who am I to judge?


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## Corporal Punishment 69 (Jul 8, 2012)

Hahaha, when I see this first I think is about what you find in belly-button (I'm loving this words in english) but now I'm understanding you mean the fable-world of 40K galaxy, no? I'm liking muchly the books, and the models and the fable-world which they live in. But the 40K galaxy is fable and changing always, I have been playing since Rogue Trader book came out and the fable-world now is much different, much changes in everything. Before I could have beastmen, "repentant sinner" human bombers, jetbikes and land speeders, if now I put them in army the peoples are saying "NO!". So who thinks what changes will have in 15 years? I say play, have fun, enjoy, but remember changes in fable-world, remember is FABLE not history, and remember my poor sad beastmen who now can't play with their freinds


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## stalarious (Aug 25, 2011)

I say that unless they come out with every finenite detail that anything you come up with as homebrew "can" happen as for the fluff itself I think it should be seen as guidelines to improve your playing not limit it.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I usually go by strict guidelines but have room for deviation for personal fluff generation that tend to fit in or on the edges of current fluff. Going strictly by cannon fluff restricts imaginations, using that cannon fluff to generate possibilities is a fundamental premise of the universe GW has created imo.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Obinhi said:


> I enjoy reading the fluff alot, and I try to stick to it personally. I play kan walls because I like to take meks as HQ. I reason there is no way the warboss is going to let a couple of nut jobs lead 90 boys into a fight with out him being there.
> 
> That said I never call people out for taking say, 6 dreads in a SM army. I could point out that there is no way in the fluff that that meny of them would be in one place at one time, but whats the point? The dude wants to play with the modles he likes, and who am I to judge?


There's been a number of battles where massive dreadnought scraps have occured, such as the third war for armageddon, when the Omega Marines and Angels Prophyr deployed double digits.

"During the 3rd Armageddon War they deployed nine Dreadnoughts, lead by Brother Weylands, to support eight Dreadnoughts of the Angels Porphyr chapter in the defense of Gate IX, of the Ghattana Bay water processing plant. Together they were able to stop an assault by a massed force of Ork Killa Kans and Deff Dreads, the resulting battle is the largest recorded instance of Dreadnought vs Dreadnought combat."


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

Hmmm my take =)



Zion said:


> I enjoy the established fluff of the core materials and more recently have started absorbing information from the Black Library's books as well.
> 
> But am I a stickler about it? Not really. If I want to play a 2-on-2 game with my Sisters and my partner is playing Tyranids I'll play regardless of what the fluff says. I play to enjoy the game not to nitpick the fluff, especially when the fluff is regularly evolving and changing.


Indeed, there's something new and contradicting every day it seems =)



Davidicus 40k said:


> I'm pretty flexible - I think you *have* to be, given the nature of the 40k setting. 40k fluff started as a very simple background for the tabletop, which understandably took precedence. 26 years later, however, the fluff is trying to expand in complexity and scope, fleshing out the details that make you scratch your head or straight up laugh out loud and making everything more grey (as opposed to black and white). This evolving process means a lot of things are going to be questionable, but still perhaps true, so you should keep an open mind (realistically).


indeed, as long as the play follows the rules and their chosen codex or codices - then all is good.



Katie Drake said:


> I like fluff a lot and enjoy reading it considerably. I don't take it too seriously however. Sticking rigidly to something that changes from one edition to the next (or one novel to another) is... frankly silly in my mind. It's even funnier when people get upset about it and will engage in pages long debates about some niggling detail. When this happens I sit back and sip at some sort of classy drink while giggling as people rage at one another over something that doesn't matter. It's the absolute height of comedy when a debate reaches CAPS LOCK levels of seriousness or where moderators have to get involved.


Caps Lock is cruse control for *AWESOME!*



C'Tan Chimera said:


> 40k will be 40k- and by that I mean about as consistent as an upside down backwards Chinese Bible in brail that was translated into Russian through an online translator.


your forgetting that it was also audibly transcribed by a deaf man =)



BlackGuard said:


> Without fluff and background and a storyline. Then we're all just silly children playing with plastic dolls.
> 
> No offense intended.


Indeed, this is arguably true.... but personally a little goes a long way... theres also some crap in there that only exists to sell models and has no logical sense nor follows any past / previous pattern of human evolvement - hence these are toys and I suggest we treat them as such.

I have a fluff centric army, I enjoy the ethos of my Ultramarines and will play them as such, my nids will also be fluff-centric... however my next army (Chaos corrupted sisters of battle)... might make the Fluff Nazi's a little nervous!... after all.... what happens when you run out faith?


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## Regent of Ultramar (Jun 10, 2012)

The fluff is all important to me. The game's cool, I play it and everything, but I'm a guy who wants to know why everything happens. Hence... the fluff.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Grey Knights getting beatup by ordinary women Ben Counter style, then I have an issue.


Could you please provide a quote of this? I have to see it to believe it, wow...


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## Cowlicker16 (Dec 7, 2010)

I devour the fluff, I love it can't get enough of it and it's awesome to quote. But thats for me personally, when my friends were just starting to get into the game I gave them enough background to give them a feel for the army and give them a basis for what they (the models) were capable of. As a group we all understand the books are different from the game and you can not take the fluff as the end all game-wise. But the game wouldn't have the excitement or the justification for anything you do without the fluff.

Bottom line, have fun, know the rules. If it's a no shit 1 winner tournament, then I think you have to follow the rules laid out as an official function, with friends just know who you're playin with.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

To me, when I'm playing a GAME, the rules are the only thing that matters.
As long as my opponent is playing by the same rules as I am, I could care less about how much sense any of it makes. I just want to roll the dice, test my skills and play the GAME.

In my book, everything that's not a rule (including the laws of physics, common sense, the appearance and coloring of models, and GW canon alike) is fluff, and once the dice hit the board fluff doesn't matter.

Off the table? I like to adhere as closely as possible to the established history and overall theme and feel of the setting. Half the point of being into Warhammer is the heavy-handed grimdark setting and the lovely gothic aesthetic. I hold myself to the fluff whenever possible, but I also know that if I want to I can write my own fluff. As long as it makes sense and doesn't contradict anything already written it's no less valid than anything else.

After all, GW wants us to invent our own fluff, because that keeps the game interesting.

If your invented fluff conflicts with my own personal aesthetics it may cause me to dislike your stuff (maybe), but I respect your right to do whatever the hell you want with your game. I'm not going to rant and scream and try to tell you you aren't a 40k player because you've got different, weird, strange or even just plain stuid fluff. Don't expect me to complement your stuff if I think it's crap, but i'm not going to go out of my way to tell you to stop having fun...and yes, I will play you.

If you want to play a chapter of female space marines that have magical sailor moon powers instead of using guns, that's fine by me...just so long as 'moon tiara magic' happens to fit the same weapon profile as a standard boltgun and you're internally consistent with the modeling so I can always see who has what...that's fine, i'll play you any time.

If you want to model all your boltguns as tennis rackets and say you're power-serving high explosive tennis balls at 24", that's fine. If every model with a tennis racket has a boltgun as far as the rules are concerned, and every golf club is a Power Sword, and only the guys with Footballs count as missile launchers, then whatever. Game on.

Playing orks and you want faster vehicles but don't like red so only Taxicab Yellow vehicles have the 'Red Paint' upgrade? Sure, whatever. You paid the extra 5 points, right? All the yellow ones have the upgrade, and only the yellow ones, right? Sure, fine, whatever. It's fluff, it doesn;t matter to me when I'm playing.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I am in the same line of thinking as Galahad here. The game is the game and I go and play the game. If you have a huge background built for your army and call each model by name as you move them around that's fine with me. As long as all your the i's are dotted and the t's crossed in terms of your rules for your list I am all for playing against whatever. If you have a huge pile of proxies I am fine with that as long as they are clearly defined. I would rather it all be the correct stuff but if it is defined or you instantly can tell me what is what at any point in the game cool.

Fluff is something for me to read and enjoy when I am not playing the game. It is stories and I am a big fan of reading so I am cool with this. I enjoy reading as much as I do playing but I do not require both to happen at once. GW states that it is a narrative game but they have adapted it over the years to the point that it is a stand alone game that does not require any fluff knowledge whatsoever to play. You do not need to know the fluff as to why a unit is named what it is, the rules are defined and why they are defined doesn't matter in game terms.


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

BlackGuard said:


> Without fluff and background and a storyline. Then we're all just silly children playing with plastic dolls.
> 
> No offense intended.



Well, some of us are growed-ups playing with plastic spacemen.

Otherwise, your point is?

It's a game. The fluff has gotten way past ludicrous, and the HH novels being a "million selling series" just means that the series as a WHOLE has done that, not that any of the individual books have sold anywhere close to that on their own (and in and of themselves, no better than twilight or any of a dozen other "supernatural romance" novels. They ALSO sell in their shitloads).


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Thing is many of those book readers are not players of the game. I am betting video games like Dawn of War and Space Marine have causes as much if not more book sales than the tabletop game. There is a lot of different markets out there selling 40k related stuff that draw those book readers in. I started out playing the Dark Heresy rpg game, and then read some of the Black Library books. It was only after that that I started the tabletop games and it was only because my brother in law got into it. I did not get into the tabletop game because of the fluff, I got into it because I thought it would be cool to paint some minis and play plastic army men. When I made my choice of what army to play it was not based off of fluff it was based off of my wallet. Even now I do not base my choices off of fluff but more off of what I like the looks of or what it provides in game.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> Could you please provide a quote of this? I have to see it to believe it, wow...


The first Grey Knights novel presents an instance of SoB being manipulated by a radical inquisitor into fighting the gk detachment until the canoness recognizes the gk insignia. 

The seraphim in particular adopt the interesting tactic of ramming gk with their jump packs and forcing them towards a cliff edge or something. I've not read this in a long time. :scratchhead:




> The rules are written FIRST, always first, the fluff is based on the rules, game designers design the new expansions and design rulesets for those expansions. If the game in question then has a sideline like the Black Library then the authors are given the new info and they are also allowed to contribute artistically, but they sure as hell DO NOT write or re-write rules. The novels come out around the same time as the new rules because that is a retail strategy, it does not mean that the novel was written first and then Games Workshop quickly scrambled around to design some new rules based on the latest fluff novel.


This I'm unsure of. I was under the impression the units are designed with rules and fluff equally in mind, with fluff being written to account for certain rules. :dunno:


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah won't be reading the grey knight novels any time soon


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## Sangus Bane (Jun 17, 2009)

As long as nothing contradicts with existing fluff or makes zero sense I'm normally fine with it.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I generally build my army around what gives me the biggest advantage in battle (which any sane commander would do...not that armies in 40k fluff are always, or even usually run by sane commanders), I can always wrap fluff around crunch if I feel the need to justify a choice. But then I rarely feel the need to justify my choices because, well, fuck you that's why. It's my army, everything's legal and I'll play anyone else with a legit list so you can go fuck yourself if you want me to do a little song and dance to justify myself to you.

That said, however, I do have personal standards and I do always TEY to create a list that makes sense within the setting. 

At one point I was somewhat disenchanted with the then current BA rules, so I decided to use the Space Wolf codex to represent my BA instead. If you check the link in my cig you'll see an entire codex worth of fluff I generated to explain the unusual options available to my lost successors, even the stuff I was never planning to take. I;d like to think it all makes perfect sense within the setting. I'd honestly like to see what a hardcore fluff player like S_N thinks of it.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Me, i love my fluff, but i don't get my knickers in a twist if someone doesn't either gets it of appreciates, it is a personal thing.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

I gauge fluff based off of two things: How creative it is, and how well it fits into canon. However, creativity is more important in this regard. You can make your army's fluff as canonically-sound as you want. If its a boring pile of ass, then it just happens to be a canonically-sound boring pile of ass. Its still boring. On the other hand, someone with really great fluff and story who at least makes an earnest pass at shoehorning it into the canon, even if the canon would never support it, is still acceptable. 

Female space marines, for instance. Fluff nazis go absolutely batshit over this one, regardless of how well made the models are, how creative the story is, or the quality of the paint job and conversion. They can't see the forest for the trees, namely, they can't see the good qualities over the fact that the canon makes it basically impossible for female space marines to exist. I actually feel kind of sorry for them, because their obsession bars them from the rest of it. Then I remember they are all dicks and stop feeling so bad, and instead just laugh my way down the page as they make encyclopedia-sized posts about why space marines are ALWAYS men, ALL the time. I, however, have no compunction to argue about why Space Marines are male (And sometimes I'll side with the person making the female space marines just to watch the fluff gestapo tear their hair out in roaring, frothy-mouthed rage) and instead just care about if you actually had the skill to try such an ambitious project and how it turned out. And if it still holds true to WYSIWYG, of course. Replace that with anything Fluff Nazis rage about (Eldar that are optimistic and hopeful, Tau wearing blue, Space Marines with yellow eye lenses) and you have my opinion- As long as you are honestly trying to make it work, and it sounds good, so be it. Put them on the table and lets play.

Fluff Nazis make my life difficult, as this is one of the few places I refrain from trolling hard, but they are just too easy a target to pass up sometimes and I have to rein myself in before I get infracted too heavily. Thats generally why I avoid posting in the homebrew forum, and instead simply read.


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## TheGoblin (Jul 19, 2012)

In my humble opinion, fluff is the best thing about the game, and I see it as a very important part of the universe if not the game. In a friendly game I'll ally Chaos with Grey Knights, I would never turn down a game because it offends my fluff standards. That being said, I do get attached to certain bits and do rage when it gets changed. For example the new Necrons....well I prefer star gods to Egyptian robots, that's all. Not that people can't theorize and discuss the fluff, even come up with insane theories, but I don't like huge changes. If the Emperor turned out to be the Hive Mind for example, it would be a matter of slamming my head into the table.

Also as the Grey Knights omnibus is being eh "discussed" I would just like to contribute, it's shit.


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