# Gray Knight unseen issues?



## Ztrain (Oct 26, 2008)

I have as some know been working through learning Necrons. My friend who has been playing space marines has been loading up on lascannons and other goodies basically just for wipeing out necrons. So I'm thinking of also starting a secondary army.

This will lessen the OMG Necrons are so good their broken rants as well as give me some else to mix up rather then just the same thing over and over again.

Was looking at Tau but Tau seems to be all about the shooting just like Necrons. If I could play with all Mechs that'd be almost like being able to play Battletech in 40K. Be it though might feel too similar to Necrons.

I've flipped through the Demon Hunters codex at the local game shop. Also done some research here. For the most part it would seem that Demon Hunters are cool as long as your not playing them. Or more specifically Gray Knights. What's the deal with that? Is it possible to make a winning list with Gray Knights or are they pretty much just an add on to other armies?

For example could a Gray Knight army effectively take out a Necron or SM army of the same point value?

Thanks,
Z


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Grey knights are odd to be honest. The basic GK is actually pretty good. Crucially for a troops choice, they are well able to hold objectives, and even take them away from the enemy. They are pricey, but not really all that pricey - and anyway that tends to mean they have a low kill point count.

I'd say that pure GK is not quite a full army though. Mix in some inquisitorial stuff, and/or some IG, and then I think it's got all the bases covered. Not many people use them and you have a huge number of options to figure out, but they seem to do ok nowadays.

One big improvement for them has been being allowed to use other units' transports. You can now stick a GK squad in a rhino from an IST squad, for example.


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## Gobbo (Jun 4, 2008)

My real life main army is Grey knights and their a hard cookie to master. The codex is old and outdated, Grey knights cant even have frag grenades :| Their special weapons are hideously expensive. Were talking 50 points for a single model with a psycannon AND he loses his close combat weapon. 

They Grey knights themselves come in at 25 points each, 50 for a sgt who just gets a power weapon. The strongest weapon in the Grey knight arsenal is strength 6. (Except for the lascannons on land raiders and dreads) They can move and shoot storm bolters, but they die rather quickly and when they do its alot of points down the can.

Their a fun army but alone their not really competitive, try mixing them with witch hunters, the exorcists and sisters really give the grey knights what they lack.

I found the best competitive Grey knight army I could field was something like this.

Grandmaster - Psycannon, sacred incense, CCW
8 Grey knights with storm bolters
8 Grey knights with storm bolters
8 Grey knights with storm bolters
8 Grey knights with storm bolters
Dreadnaught TL lascannon H flamer
Dreadnaught TL lascannon H flamer
Inquisitor, Storm bolter
Callidus assassin


I used to use the assassin to pull their tanks out into the open then blast them turn one with the dreads and just use the mobile firepower of the Grey knights to do the rest. It won quite a few games but wasn't really competitive.


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## Blackhiker (Dec 28, 2007)

The last time I used my Gk in a tournament I did fairly well against the crons. My suggestion is not using the Grand master because he is awesome for friendly games, but nowhere near competitive. My suggested list is as such:

Brother-captain
Inquisitor
assassin of some type
2-3 units of stormtroopers
2 units of GK
1 or 2 Dreads

this will allow for some Grey knight goodness, while still being fairly competitive.


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## Justicar Auarilius (Nov 29, 2008)

As an experience daemonhunteres player (now switching more into I.G.)
let me give u sum advice, A pure grey knight army is a failed army

mabey in a small pt game like 500 u have a shot but the basic grey knight troop choice wit 8 models (7 GK + Justicar) costs around 225, add 2 of those and ur HQ choice n thats all u get...no special weaps, and severly outbumbered. if your goin to use Grey knights the only effective way is as specialty units for Imperial armies (B.S. S.M. or I.G.) ive found I.G. works the best using a couple of teleport squads as ur FA choices

even when u use them to back up an inquistor force ur only other option is stormtroopers which alone without heavy weps teams like the guards offer, im sorry perform horribly against anything like SM, Chaos Marines, or necros

so just use GK as the cherry on top of a guard or BS army where cc is sumtimes needed


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Grey Knights are beautiful when helping allies - but on their own, just don't do enough, I find.

Taking a couple as Fast Attack Slots (5 Strong units, with 2 Incinerators, Justicars with Incinerator) gives you a Teleport Attack (so can always Deep Strike), and then you can drop 3 Flamer Templates on an opponents Troops. Really Tasty against Orks, and halfway decent against Marines).

Now the really expensive stuff is coming in in Larger Games - a Grand Master with Incinerator, Brother Captain with Incinerator, and a Terminator with Incinerator, all mounted in a Land Raider - Preferably Crusader - or (Smile) Redeemer. Charge the enemies lines, unleash 3/5 Str 6 Flamer Attacks, and then charge with Str 6 Power Weapons.

Very nasty, but in the region of 600 pts.


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## Justicar Auarilius (Nov 29, 2008)

lol ya and for 600 pts an I.G. player can get 3 lemans russ demolisher all wit plama cannons, and 2 squads of veterans with 3 plasmas in each squads

6 plasma cannons and 6 plasma guns (rapid fire) will destroy that entire squad in one turn so the moral of the story is...600 pts is to much for a squad no matter how good that squad is


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

What do Rapid Firing Plasma Guns do against a Land Raider? I fail to see what point you make.


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## Justicar Auarilius (Nov 29, 2008)

Vaz said:


> What do Rapid Firing Plasma Guns do against a Land Raider? I fail to see what point you make.


no idealy the cannons are for the tank when refering to rapidly firing your plasma guns i was saying that will def help against a termy squad of 5, stastically you should down 2 with 6 shots having a 32% chance of killing a termy with each shot, and i guarantee you that it wont take 6 plasma cannon shots to take out a landraider which means youll have a PC shot or 2 left over against the squad....
i was comparing the relative point values of 600 pts worth of termies or landraiders to what you could b faced with by another army...its just not practical


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## Honking_Elephant (May 8, 2008)

you really can't compare relative points cost like that, when will you ever get the perfect chance to use the vets and the demolisher on the GK squad? Very rarely. I'll twist your example, the 600 points of GK against 600 points of guardsmen, just guardsmen with no heavy weapons, and they would get butchered, as the 10 man squads of guardsmen probably couldn't even take the charge, and they probably won't get shot much due to the land raider, but anyway ..

GK are painfully outdated! But make a very nice addition to an IG army, as IG have nothing like them, and gives them extra hittyness in CC, so I'd say get them as an adition to an IG army or Sisters of battle.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Justicar Auarilius said:


> i guarantee you that it wont take 6 plasma cannon shots to take out a landraider which means youll have a PC shot or 2 left over against the squad....


I can guarantee that it will take more than 6 Plasma Cannon shots to take out a Land Raider.


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## Justicar Auarilius (Nov 29, 2008)

ya we brought that scenario up earlier and all agreed...GK just cant hang alone with the new codex out (i think last edition for GK is 3rd..?)

but my statement about the squad was just to make a point that a landraider with 5 termies at 600 pts is a waste because of the amount of units it will face from other armies

(i mean even against normal space marines that 4 full squads of 10 kitted out wit pretty good weapondry)


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## Justicar Auarilius (Nov 29, 2008)

and ive seen it done wit 2 plasma cannons shots Vaz (granted it was side armor and a marine was firing) but it can b done

and even if the landraider lives wats it gonna do...
1. cant capture an objective
2. and if all shots hit pretty hard to picture one tank taking out that many units even at 6 turns but i c ur point,


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

No it's not. 180*4 = 640, and that's without any upgrades. I don't know where you get your ideas from, but Plasma Cannons won't dent a Land Raider, and you don't know Points Costs.

When you also have 900-1100 pts remaining, you are also letting your other troops fire back indescriminately. It can take a lot of firepower - Hell, it's only real weakness is Tau with their Railguns, and even so, you have a squad that can whether 33% of AP2 shots.

When they're redone, I can't see them not being able to access Storm Shields either, and that doubles their chances of survival against such weapons. If you're insistant on putting an equivalent amount of points into that unit, then you can only wonder why you lose.


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## Justicar Auarilius (Nov 29, 2008)

lol dude if they gave termies stormshield for GK that would b so unfair lol
their already great save + shroud + Stormshields would just b 2 unfair even for their high point costs

but ive heard that they r lowering the point cost by 4 pts a model for GK (heard it from a worker at local GW shop) u seem to knw wat ur talkin bout Vaz have u heard any truth 2 that?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

No-one knows the points costs. There is no new codex in site - Lizardmen, Imperial Guard, Necrons, Dark Eldar, and Skaven are the most speculated about, but what is known (ish) is that Daemonhunters, Witchhunters, and the as yet unreleased Alienhunters is being released as one "Big Book of Huntin'".

Grey Knights have access to everything Space Marines have - they are a Space marine Chapter, and as such, they have access to its equipment; and more. Why shouldn't they have Storm Shields?


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## Justicar Auarilius (Nov 29, 2008)

wow that would b sick!!! and by alien hunters im guessing u mean deathwatch??

as far as GK ya i knw it makes sense i just think grey knights r too strong and too much
this comming from a guy who has an ALL GK army, it just takes sum of the fun out of it when ur troop choices so expensive n ur always outnumbered
but if ur lookin at it from the WH40k universe ya it makes sense (shit the gk books they were outnumbered by that fuedal force 10,000 to 30 lol)


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Aye, the Deathwatch is the Ordo Xenos Chamber Militant.

And Grey Knights are generally the "Always Outnumbered, Never Outgunned" mentality.


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## Honking_Elephant (May 8, 2008)

Right, am I being reeeally stupid, or is it just me, or is a str 7 plasma cannon, rolling on a d6 at most gonna get 13, which can't harm a land raider? And sieriously Justicar Auarilius, i don't get you logic as to why you must apply an equivalnet amount of points?! Lets see how a baneblade fares against 4 10 man space marine squads, i bet the baneblade would win ...


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## Justicar Auarilius (Nov 29, 2008)

lol well all space marines r but they just go off the boat wit them lol

now i wonder though wat would make the deathwatch any diff than other space marine army other than ammunition
their basics were
weapon-bolter
troop- tac squad
transport - rhino
its the same thing as a SM army? wat would b diff in ur opinion


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## Grik (Jul 28, 2008)

I was thinking the same thing. A Strength 7 weapon can't do diddly squat to an armour value of 14. As for Justicar saying it was on the side armour when he saw a Laind Raider popped with a Plasma Cannon, that still isn't possible. A Land Raider is 14 all around. So you were playing with someone-possibly yourself- who didn't know the amour value of their own vehicles. The Land Raider is one hell of a tough nut to crack, the only thing that gives them issues are Tau Rail Guns, and Bright/Dark Lances that reduce all armour values above 12 to down to 12. And melta/fusion weapons at close range, so they get the 2D6(instead of the normal 1D6) for their armour penetration roll. But if you are letting melta/fusion weapons get that close- a foot or under- to your Land Raider when it still has troops in it, you did something tactically wrong- in most cases.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Well in fairness the 3 demolishers in the example could have a go at the land raider with their main guns.

The real problem with such super units is that they can only kill one enemy unit at a time. Obviously, it's an entirely one-sided fight when these guys fire at a 5 man IG vet squad, but then all its friends fire.

You would actually be better off just taking two redeemers with nobody inside in this situation.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

> You can now stick a GK squad in a rhino from an IST squad, for example.
> Grey Knights (p6, p29 CH)


Actually you cannot do this. The codex specifies that Dedicated Transports can only transport it's own unit, the DH and IG books say this. The codex specific rules overrule the Rulebook.

I have a bunch of Grey Knights I got off Ebay and am itching to try them out. I consider them a good challenge (like my IG).


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## Justicar Auarilius (Nov 29, 2008)

ya deaths right, only thing GK can go in are a landraider (or landraider variations)

And the Space marine army was not mine and i dont know the Landraiders stats by heart, but like some one mentioned earlier. Even though i was only mentioning plasma guns and cannons, 3 demolishers come with 3 Strength 10 AP 2 or 3 i think. So with that could also have been how i took out the landraider, even with an armor of 14


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

You do have Scatter to consider. And I'm having a Mind Fuck, and can't remember if the rule about Ordnance going to half strength unless it's under the hole in the template is still in effect, so you have a rather large chance of it still Scattering off.

You then still have to roll for a 5 to Penetrate, and it can't be destroyed by a glance, so it's still rolling forwards, along with PoTMS, and after 2 turns, it's ready to assault.

But yes, with no consolidation, you're looking to be troubled, despite the Invulnerables, and you can't sweeping advance.

Still, Deep Striking is as relevant, a Land Raider Crusader can pop a tank a turn with the Melta, or fire it's assault cannons or its Hurricane Bolters - still gonna rip some stuff open.

But that's beside the point, now.


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## newsun (Oct 6, 2008)

DeathKlokk said:


> Actually you cannot do this. The codex specifies that Dedicated Transports can only transport it's own unit, the DH and IG books say this. The codex specific rules overrule the Rulebook.
> 
> I have a bunch of Grey Knights I got off Ebay and am itching to try them out. I consider them a good challenge (like my IG).


I think they just missed this as WH book said you could not and a FAQ came out and changed this. I don't see any reason why they would keep it in there for the GK/DH.


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## Justicar Auarilius (Nov 29, 2008)

lol i dont know how we got on the topic of a landraider crusader involved, but to answer i heard something like that too that it reduces strenth to half


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