# A thousand sons (spoilers)



## FORTHELION

Hi all just picked up my copy of a thousand sons from games workshop in dublin. Its out early. Cant wait to get stuck into it.
Just thought id let you guys know its available if your out and about in dublin.


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## dark angel

Lucky you, might have to head down to Games-Worship Cardiff to get this, I doubt that however. Can you tell us what Primarchs are listed in the Dramatis Persona? (Or whatever it is called )


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## Lord of the Night

Congratulations. Wish it came out early here, ive got to wait until march 4th for my copy.


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## FORTHELION

russ,lorgar,mortarion,sanguinnius,magnus,fulgrim.
i didnt think there would be that many primarchs


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## deathbringer

Just got to the halfway stage and its fantastic
Reading it slow absorbing it
fantastic book head out and buy it
when finished ill be doing a non spoiler review probably tomorrow


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## dark angel

This is one of the few Horus Heresy novels I am not actually waiting to buy. Prospero Burns was the one I looked forward to most of the pair, and now, now it ain't getting released till next year  I will not probably buy this until that is released, or in september at the earliest. However, whatever happens I will always dislike the Thousand Sons. Magik-Using bastards as they are


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## FORTHELION

Im gonna start reading it tonight. cant wait.


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## Brother Subtle

how do you buggers have this???? its not due for release till march?


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## Baron Spikey

When ever GW states the month of release for a book its inevitably on sale the month before.


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## Lord of the Night

Not for me. The release date of March is solid in my area... unfair. Plus ill have both Soul Hunter and A Thousand Sons on the same day.. How am I supposed to decide which to read first.


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## Brother Subtle

Baron Spikey said:


> When ever GW states the month of release for a book its inevitably on sale the month before.


ebay is still bare?


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## Baron Spikey

I don't know why the GW stores differ in their release dates, maybe it's because I'm friendly with the staff at my local GW but more than once they've sold me books a week or 2 before the month they're stated to come out.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Got my copy today alongside _Soul Hunter_ from GW Chester. Apparently both were released all across the country yesterday in GW stores.


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## Lord of the Night

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Got my copy today alongside _Soul Hunter_ from GW Chester. Apparently both were released all across the country yesterday in GW stores.


WHAT!. How much were they?, a few extra pounds is worth getting them earlier.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lord of the Night said:


> WHAT!. How much were they?, a few extra pounds is worth getting them earlier.


£7.99 each, quite a bit more expensive than off the Internet (They go for around £4 on Amazon.co.uk) - But worth it to get them early


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## Lord of the Night

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> £7.99 each, quite a bit more expensive than off the Internet (They go for around £4 on Amazon.co.uk) - But worth it to get them early


Definitely. Which is why I just cancelled my order from amazon and ordered them from Games Workshop.co.uk. Ill have them by next week , plus my A Thousand Sons will be in gold so it'll look amazing.

Now.. which one do I read first. This is not going to be an easy choice.


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## deathbringer

7.99 for me and worth every penny

My tiny review a more in depth one will follow (no spoilers)

Beautifully worded, fantastic writing, revolutionary in the secrets it reveals
(Didnt notice the raven guard hint tho + rep to anyone that pm's the page number to me)

It was hauntingly beautiful dont skimp on the price
Food is worth less than this book it is that precious

Had high expectations and Mcneill topped them


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## Brother Subtle

Must... Find... A way to get in oz...


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## Shacklock

Normal £6.99 in GW stockport, shame I couldent afford it xD


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lord of the Night said:


> Now.. which one do I read first. This is not going to be an easy choice.


Exactly the Dilemma I had! I thought the obvious choice was to go for _A Thousand Sons_ first, but I can't help but keep looking over to my shelf where _Soul Hunter_ is... 



deathbringer said:


> (Didnt notice the raven guard hint tho + rep to anyone that pm's the page number to me)


Im making page reference notes as I plough through it (for quick reference when needed!) - So when I reach the point i'll surely pick up on it and note the Page number for you.


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## xClampy

Got this book today. Just finishing off another book, then I hope to start reading this as soon as that is done. I really am looking forward to this.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Well I thought I'd better kick-start the debate, considering a few of us have read the book now! (I won't bother adding spoiler tags considering this thread is about the book!)

Quite simply... Wow!!! What an addition to the Heresy series. I think many fans will see this as the best book in the series so far, some may even say it clearly trumps all the others.

Its got a great plot - ranging from the discovery of the Webway Gate on Anghoru (which ties in convieniently later on with the Emperor's Webway project on Terra) , through the Ark Reach Cluster War alongside the Space Wolves and Word Bearers, The Council of Nikaea and then finally the Burning of Prospero. I think it was certainly the most heart-racing Heresy novel, with tonnes of new information revealed concerning not only Magnus and the Thousand Sons, but also regarding the Emperor, Space Wolves, Russ and the Warp aswell.

What did you guys think?


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## bobss

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Well I thought I'd better kick-start the debate, considering a few of us have read the book now! (I won't bother adding spoiler tags considering this thread is about the book!)
> 
> Quite simply... Wow!!! What an addition to the Heresy series. I think many fans will see this as the best book in the series so far, some may even say it clearly trumps all the others.
> 
> Its got a great plot - ranging from the discovery of the Webway Gate on Anghoru (which ties in convieniently later on with the Emperor's Webway project on Terra) , through the Ark Reach Cluster War alongside the Space Wolves and Word Bearers, The Council of Nikaea and then finally the Burning of Prospero. I think it was certainly the most heart-racing Heresy novel, with tonnes of new information revealed concerning not only Magnus and the Thousand Sons, but also regarding the Emperor, Space Wolves, Russ and the Warp aswell.
> 
> What did you guys think?


One question - Haven`t read it yet, only just finished False Gods:laugh: - _but_ did Ahriman summon 'Warp Entities' *cough* Bloodletters *cough* in the book? My local store manager said he did... a few months before the release...


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## Brother Subtle

I can no longer read this thread... Damn you uk members and your early releases!
*sits and waits till march............


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

bobss said:


> One question - Haven`t read it yet, only just finished False Gods:laugh: - _but_ did Ahriman summon 'Warp Entities' *cough* Bloodletters *cough* in the book? My local store manager said he did... a few months before the release...


No he doesn't


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## Lord of the Night

My copy has been dispatched so ill have it some time this week, if not today. Im going to read Soul Hunter first though, then A Thousand Sons.

Plus A Thousand Sons will be my first HH book in 1st edition format, nice and shiny gold 

Edit: I was right. Both A Thousand Sons and Soul Hunter have just arrived. And WOW, A Thousand Sons is huge. The biggest HH book yet. And its cover is so well made, especially the tagline. "All is dust"



Also brief spoiler. According to the Dramatis Personae, the infamous sorcerer Ahriman's first name is Ahzek. Ahzek Ahriman. Pretty nice first name.


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## RudeAwakening79

Brother Subtle said:


> I can no longer read this thread... Damn you uk members and your early releases!
> *sits and waits till march............


....right with ya Brother subtle, March seems a long way to go....


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

One strange thing I noticed in regards to the Edicts of Nikaea were that the Emperor banned Librarius departments and forbade any Astartes to use any psychic powers, yet why do we see Librarians and Astartes Psykers in M41?


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## Lord of the Night

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> One strange thing I noticed in regards to the Edicts of Nikaea were that the Emperor banned Librarius departments and forbade any Astartes to use any psychic powers, yet why do we see Librarians and Astartes Psykers in M41?


I thought he only banned Sorcery. The source I read says that he banned Sorcery but took the advice of a small council of Librarians from several legions who advised that Psykers were not inherently good or evil but that Sorcery was inherently evil, so the Emperor allowed Psykers to stay but banned Sorcery forever.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lord of the Night said:


> I thought he only banned Sorcery. The source I read says that he banned Sorcery but took the advice of a small council of Librarians from several legions who advised that Psykers were not inherently good or evil but that Sorcery was inherently evil, so the Emperor allowed Psykers to stay but banned Sorcery forever.


That was what I thought and was the position I took prior to the release of _A Thousand Sons_. Although the small group of librarians are still present in the book, the Emperor took the position that Librarians and all Astartes Psykers were to be banned.


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## Lord of the Night

Must be a mistake, I doubt they'd alter the background like that. Otherwise that would mean the Librarians are a direct defiance of the Emperor, and in the 41st millennium thats heresy. And thats just altering nearly everything.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lord of the Night said:


> Must be a mistake, I doubt they'd alter the background like that. Otherwise that would mean the Librarians are a direct defiance of the Emperor, and in the 41st millennium thats heresy. And thats just altering nearly everything.


Im not sure, the _Collected Visions_ also stated that Librarians were banned, so its not just a one-off mistake.


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## Relic of Light

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Im not sure, the _Collected Visions_ also stated that Librarians were banned, so its not just a one-off mistake.





Lord of the Night said:


> Must be a mistake, I doubt they'd alter the background like that. Otherwise that would mean the Librarians are a direct defiance of the Emperor, and in the 41st millennium thats heresy. And thats just altering nearly everything.


This might help explain how Librarians are in 40k and not be in direct defiance of the Emperor.


Collected Visions, 

THe Siege of Terra II


Malcador to the Emperor:


"Sire, these others are known to you. Each of them is a Space Marine. 
They have cast aside their allegiance to Primarch and Legion who have 
sided with Horus and pledged themselves anew to you, their Emperpor and farther.

I have chosen these eight since allied to their unflinching loyalty they 
each are blessed with paranormal skills, kept dormant in respect of your
previous commands. However these skills are most apt in combating the 

horrors that have recently emerged from the warp and I know they will be needed in the coming years."


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## Brother Subtle

please change the title to SPOLIERS!!!!!!!!! i keep accidently clicking in here and reading stuff i shouldnt. damn aus! why keep us waiting?


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## Commissar Ploss

Brother Subtle said:


> please change the title to SPOLIERS!!!!!!!!! i keep accidently clicking in here and reading stuff i shouldnt. damn aus! why keep us waiting?


will do. lol :laugh: stop clicking! 

CP


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Relic of Light said:


> This might help explain how Librarians are in 40k and not be in direct defiance of the Emperor.
> 
> 
> Collected Visions,
> 
> THe Siege of Terra II
> 
> 
> Malcador to the Emperor:
> 
> 
> "Sire, these others are known to you. Each of them is a Space Marine.
> They have cast aside their allegiance to Primarch and Legion who have
> sided with Horus and pledged themselves anew to you, their Emperpor and farther.
> 
> I have chosen these eight since allied to their unflinching loyalty they
> each are blessed with paranormal skills, kept dormant in respect of your
> previous commands. However these skills are most apt in combating the
> 
> horrors that have recently emerged from the warp and I know they will be needed in the coming years."


But that is not in regard to all Astartes, only the 8 chosen for the Inquisition. Aside from that take into account that the _Collected Visions_ contradicts even itself!


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## Lord of the Night

That must have been the point where the Emperor decreed Librarians were to be allowed. The Grey Knights were created at that point and they are all psykers. They must have taken it as the Emperor receding his previous command.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lord of the Night said:


> That must have been the point where the Emperor decreed Librarians were to be allowed. The Grey Knights were created at that point and they are all psykers. They must have taken it as the Emperor receding his previous command.


Possibly. Although I believe its the _Collected Visions_ again that states that the edicts of Nikaea are in force even in the 41st Millenium. 

Aside from that though, I was suprised that its also implied in the book that although Horus spurned on Russ to destroy Prospero, Valdor did aswell. This in my opinion only reinforces the idea that the Emperor also ordered Magnus' Death and/or Prospero's destruction - & Horus just reinforced the command.


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## deathbringer

I believe that the Valdor thing is more in relation to Valdor's disgust at sorcery and Magnus himself. He must have lost hundreds of his warriors in the daemonic attack of terra and I wouldnt blame him for being bitter and hateful towards the thousand sons. Valdor is described as goading, not outright demands but more sniping and subtle hints. 

Maybe he didnt directly compromise the Emperor's demands but bitter words in Russ's ear were all that were needed.

I loved the new information on the thousand sons and it has convinced me that the thousand sons need there own codex, having the union of corvidae and the other cults in on squad places extra emphasis on how the thousand sons go to war.

My one thing... the raven guard hint... where


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## Relic of Light

I got the Impression that Valdor was going against the Emperors orders to Russ.

Still maybe that's the idea, to keep us guessing until Prospero Burns comes out.

What about page 264-265, Mortarion to Magnus. 

Mortarion on page 265 over half way down. The fate of one of the lost legion Primarchs?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

deathbringer said:


> My one thing... the raven guard hint... where


Page 197 ongoing. The planet known as Shrike - Raven's Aeries 93 (A Mountain Fortress) - Warriors bearing sleek beak-like weapons and flying - they were the only subtle similarities I found, although take into account they have nothing to do with the Raven Guard.



Relic of Light said:


> I got the Impression that Valdor was going against the Emperors orders to Russ.
> 
> Still maybe that's the idea, to keep us guessing until Prospero Burns comes out.


Possibly - but the thing is, we don't actually know what the Emperor ordered Russ to do.



Relic of Light said:


> Mortarion on page 265 over half way down. The fate of one of the lost legion Primarchs?


No, it is a reference to Mortarion's adopted father on Barbarus.


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## FORTHELION

there is loads of references to ravens in the book ill have to look them up. for page numbers.
i thought the book was absolulely amazing. best book yet.
does anyone else think that deep down the thousand sons might yet be loyal as ahriman himself says at the end. "_the great work i have begunwill be the first stepin proving how right we were, how loyal we were and how loyal we might yet be" "This cabal will be the opening move in restoring the thousand sons to glory in the eyes of the emperor"_


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

FORTHELION said:


> does anyone else think that deep down the thousand sons might yet be loyal as ahriman himself says at the end. "_the great work i have begunwill be the first stepin proving how right we were, how loyal we were and how loyal we might yet be" "This cabal will be the opening move in restoring the thousand sons to glory in the eyes of the emperor"_


If anything, I think it just shows that Ahriman has not accepted his place in the grand schemes of Tzeentch.

I imagine that Ahriman thought that if he was able to solve the 'flesh-change' problem he could prove his mastery of the warp to the Emperor and thus be redeemed. Thats the only solution I could think of anyway. But of course we know that the Rubric of Ahriman both worked and failed in that regard.

However we should also remember that the epilogue of the book was 10,000 years prior to M41 - a lot can change in that time, especially considering Ahriman is in the Eye of Terror and locked in servitude to Tzeentch. Of course though Ahriman may still naively believe he is the master of the warp, and still be trying to prove this to the Emperor - For example he may be trying to access the Black Library in order to plausably gain the knowledge to master Chaos and thus prove it to the Emperor? Im pulling at strings but who knows!


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## Lord of the Night

Personally I think that Ahriman is no servant. If he were then Magnus would have kept him around. Ahriman is his own master, and could one day become a Chaos God himself. That's why he wants the Black Library, to gain enough knowledge, therefore power, to become a new Chaos God. And according to the Harlequins if he had gotten inside then he would have actually become a new Chaos God.


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## deathbringer

A chaos god?
Are you mad... tzeentch would never allow a second to usurp him plus however knowledgeable Ahriman gets he is nothing compared to Magnus. 

Ahriman is in denial but he is just a pawn to Tzeentch

Thanks Cof E once again... lifesaver.. not much of a hint though


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## FORTHELION

the references to ravens are many here are a few i found

pg 500 a faint scratching of metal sounded at his ear, and he twisted to call for help, but his words trailed off as he saw a black raven watching him with its head cocked to one side. Its wings were glossy and black, though he could see cyber implants worked with great subtelty into its skull. the bird regarded him quizzically, and he smiled at the sight of his cults symbol. *Ankhu Anen member of the corvidae and guardian of the great library.*

the raven is the symbol of the corvidae Ahrimans cult and they wear it on their pauldron. There are at least 7 references to ravens in the book and its gonna take a while to re read it to find them.

just a thought but maybe when magnus dispersed the fleet with orders not to be opened untill they reached their destinations there were thousand sons on it and they were told of what was to unfold on prospero. And they were to continue on the work of the emperor as a new chapter. Hense the blood ravens having loads of psykers in their chapter and suffering the same problems as the thousand sons with mutation and the change. As you can see in the Third dawn of war novel when one of the battle brothers shows Gabriel his hand that just mutated and gabriel told him he knew what to do and cover it up.
Probably way off here but thats the way im looking at it.
Hope it helps.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lord of the Night said:


> Personally I think that Ahriman is no servant. If he were then Magnus would have kept him around. Ahriman is his own master, and could one day become a Chaos God himself. That's why he wants the Black Library, to gain enough knowledge, therefore power, to become a new Chaos God. And according to the Harlequins if he had gotten inside then he would have actually become a new Chaos God.


For a mortal to actually _become_ a Chaos God is impossible. I've always interpreted it as that if Ahriman gained access to the Black Library he would become _god_-like in Power.

Ahriman is by no means his own master, he is merely a pawn of Tzeentch.


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## Khorne's Fist

FORTHELION said:


> pg 500 a faint scratching of metal sounded at his ear, and he twisted to call for help, but his words trailed off as he saw a black raven watching him with its head cocked to one side. Its wings were glossy and black, though he could see cyber implants worked with great subtelty into its skull. the bird regarded him quizzically, and he smiled at the sight of his cults symbol. *Ankhu Anen member of the corvidae and guardian of the great library.*


To me that sounds more like a SW cyber raven than anything else.

I don't get the whole raven thing. The book has absolutely nothing to do with the Raven Guard. I'm just at the final battle for the capitol of Shrike, and while the natives use raven iconography, they are also mutants.
I think people are reading too much into it, really.


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## Commissar Ploss

I don't know how you wouldn't assume a Raven Guard reference when a planet has the name SHRIKE!!!!!1! the only other Shrike i know of is Kayvaan Shrike of the Raven Guard! its pretty blatant if you ask me. 

CP


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## Khorne's Fist

Commissar Ploss said:


> I don't know how you wouldn't assume a Raven Guard reference when a planet has the name SHRIKE!!!!!1! the only other Shrike i know of is Kayvaan Shrike of the Raven Guard! its pretty blatant if you ask me.
> 
> CP


The thing is the Raven Guard already exist at this stage, fighting the Crusade in another part of the galaxy, whike Shrike is a planet newly found by the Word Bearers and SWs that had no previous contact in any form with the Imperium. If the Raven Guard were in the book, or mentioned in the history of the planet, maybe theres a link. But I don't think so. As I said, the natives are mutants with flexible and light weight skeletons, taller and thinner than normal humans. While they are within laid down parameters, they are still too mutated to be considered as a potential recruitment pool for a SM legion. 

As to the Shrike link, there is 10,000 years between the two, one being a planet, and one being a SM. I really think it's a stretch to think there's a link.

I think people are now studying every HH novel for hidden (or nonexistant) hints, instead of just enjoying the story. Someone on here said they were going through the novel taking notes as they read it.:shok: It's a science fiction novel, not a text book. Theres no exam at the end of it.


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## FORTHELION

Lads its not the raven guard the hint is to its the blood ravens. its a hint to where they actually came from as they dont know.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Khorne's Fist said:


> I think people are now studying every HH novel for hidden (or nonexistant) hints, instead of just enjoying the story. Someone on here said they were going through the novel taking notes as they read it.:shok: It's a science fiction novel, not a text book. Theres no exam at the end of it.


Ha, that was me! Whats wrong with penciling down a few notes for quick page references of interesting parts of the book/juicy info revealed? Doesn't mean I dont enjoy the book...

And aside from that as FORTHELION said, I believe the Subtle Raven hints are generally believed to be in reference to the Blood Ravens (as several online reviews have picked up on).


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## Commissar Ploss

Khorne's Fist said:


> The thing is the Raven Guard already exist at this stage, fighting the Crusade in another part of the galaxy, whike Shrike is a planet newly found by the Word Bearers and SWs that had no previous contact in any form with the Imperium. If the Raven Guard were in the book, or mentioned in the history of the planet, maybe theres a link. But I don't think so. As I said, the natives are mutants with flexible and light weight skeletons, taller and thinner than normal humans. While they are within laid down parameters, they are still too mutated to be considered as a potential recruitment pool for a SM legion.
> 
> As to the Shrike link, there is 10,000 years between the two, one being a planet, and one being a SM. I really think it's a stretch to think there's a link.
> 
> I think people are now studying every HH novel for hidden (or nonexistant) hints, instead of just enjoying the story. Someone on here said they were going through the novel taking notes as they read it.:shok: It's a science fiction novel, not a text book. Theres no exam at the end of it.


good points all. consider me here to just instigate. haha :laugh:


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## Khorne's Fist

Another thing that jumped out at me was Russ's telepathic power. When he screams in rage he actually killed a load of the telepathic TSs with the psychic back blast. Surely this makes him a very powerful psyker, even if he doesn't seem to use it only by accident.


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## FORTHELION

yeah noticed that too. And then there is wyrdmake the rune priest still using the power of the warp in direct contradiction to the emperors will at nikea. And this goes unpunished even by the custodes. A bit of hypocrisy there if you ask me


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Khorne's Fist said:


> Another thing that jumped out at me was Russ's telepathic power. When he screams in rage he actually killed a load of the telepathic TSs with the psychic back blast. Surely this makes him a very powerful psyker, even if he doesn't seem to use it only by accident.


Aye. I assumed it was because as the Emperor heavily used the warp (and implied to have bargained with the Chaos Gods) in the creation of the Primarchs, and the Primarchs themselves having massive and powerful Warp Presences that Russ' 'Psychic' Scream was just the effect of his outpouring of rage and anger into the warp.


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## Khorne's Fist

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Aye. I assumed it was because as the Emperor heavily used the warp (and implied to have bargained with the Chaos Gods) in the creation of the Primarchs,


He's not the only one. It's heavily implied that Magnus bargained with the powers of the warp to fix the mutations that racked the TSs before he was united with them. He also says that he was there when the Emperor conversed with the powers of the aether.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Khorne's Fist said:


> He's not the only one. It's heavily implied that Magnus bargained with the powers of the warp to fix the mutations that racked the TSs before he was united with them. He also says that he was there when the Emperor conversed with the powers of the aether.


Indeed. But its more than heavily implied, Magnus actually admits it 

What did you think about my theory regarding Russ' 'psychic scream'?


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## Khorne's Fist

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> What did you think about my theory regarding Russ' 'psychic scream'?


Totally agree. Thought you might have copped that when I mentioned the psychic back blast of his scream.:wink::good:


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## FORTHELION

deathbringer said:


> (Didnt notice the raven guard hint tho + rep to anyone that pm's the page number to me)


well i did a bit of rereading and came up with this. its probably the biggest hint in the book. its on pg 430 when Ahriman turns off the machine keeping the aether away from Kallista and she sees a vision from the future. she says

its too late... the wolf is at the door and it hungers for blood. Oh throne... no, the blood! The ravens, i see them too. The lost sons and a raven of blood. they cry out for salvationand knowledge, but it is denied!

now you cant get much clearer than that. the blood ravens battle cry is knowledge is power and she also mention them being lost sons.

hope this helps.


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## Khorne's Fist

FORTHELION said:


> well i did a bit of rereading and came up with this. its probably the biggest hint in the book. its on pg 430 when Ahriman turns off the machine keeping the aether away from Kallista and she sees a vision from the future. she says
> 
> its too late... the wolf is at the door and it hungers for blood. Oh throne... no, the blood! The ravens, i see them too. The lost sons and a raven of blood. they cry out for salvationand knowledge, but it is denied!
> 
> now you cant get much clearer than that. the blood ravens battle cry is knowledge is power and she also mention them being lost sons.
> 
> hope this helps.


I haven't got that far quite yet, but that really couldn't be clearer. Fair play, good find. I think that should put to bed any more debate on the Blood Ravens heritage.:victory:


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## FORTHELION

just a quick question about a debate i had with dark angel.

Does anybody know why the 13th company of wolves are not mentioned in the book when all the fluff around up to now is all about the 13th co going to prospero. Its all 5th co thats mentioned in the book. And at the end the old fluff states that the 13th co follow the thousand sons through a rift into the eye of terror but this does not happen.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

FORTHELION said:


> just a quick question about a debate i had with dark angel.
> 
> Does anybody know why the 13th company of wolves are not mentioned in the book when all the fluff around up to now is all about the 13th co going to prospero. Its all 5th co thats mentioned in the book. And at the end the old fluff states that the 13th co follow the thousand sons through a rift into the eye of terror but this does not happen.


Something for _Prospero Burns_ I imagine.


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## Khorne's Fist

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Something for _Prospero Burns_ I imagine.


I would imagine so. _A Thousand Sons _is told from the 10k sons perspective, so it's not really that important to their story, where as _Prospero Burns_ should tell us all about the wolves, but not go into detail on all the different fellowships of Magnus.

As an aside, does anybody else remember an early announcment regarding these two novels actually were meant to be released within a month of each other? It could have been one of the youtube clips of Abnett's Q&A sessions, but I'm nearly positive I heard it somewhere.


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## FORTHELION

yeah prospero burns was supposed to be out next month. but abnett is after being diagnosed with epilepsy (spelling) so it was put back till next january


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## Khorne's Fist

FORTHELION said:


> yeah prospero burns was supposed to be out next month. but abnett is after being diagnosed with epilepsy (spelling) so it was put back till next january


Damn, yet another of my favourite authors gets it rough. Gemmell died, Pratchett got Alzheimers, Robert Jordan died, now Abnett gets epilepsy.


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## Commissar Ploss

Khorne's Fist said:


> Damn, yet another of my favourite authors gets it rough. Gemmell died, Pratchett got Alzheimers, Robert Jordan died, now Abnett gets epilepsy.


Abnett's gonna be alright, you can read about in his blog. He's getting treatment for it. 

CP


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Khorne's Fist said:


> Damn, yet another of my favourite authors gets it rough. Gemmell died, Pratchett got Alzheimers, Robert Jordan died, now Abnett gets epilepsy.


He's in very good shape, KF. In fact, with the medication he's on, he likely won't have another seizure again.


----------



## FORTHELION

here here to that. wish him a speedy recovery from all of us here on heresy Aaron.


----------



## deathbringer

delighted to hear that
Fantastic author.. eisenhorn is one of my favourite 40 k books ever though I must admit a thousand sons may have stolen the crown, a fantastic book.

What I was wondering was I was just reading the battle between Russ and Magnus.. Does this mean that all primarch's cant be damaged by psychic powers?

Russ seems pretty much impervious to the psychic energy unleashed by Magnus so I'm guessing because the primarch's have such a huge warp presence they are almost immune to the warp?

Would this suggest that the primarch's that went into the warp on there various quests would have a good chance of surviving?


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> He's in very good shape, KF. In fact, with the medication he's on, he likely won't have another seizure again.


Ah, good news.:victory: 

If that's the case though, what's the bloody hold up?:angry::wink:



deathbringer said:


> Russ seems pretty much impervious to the psychic energy unleashed by Magnus so I'm guessing because the primarch's have such a huge warp presence they are almost immune to the warp?
> 
> Would this suggest that the primarch's that went into the warp on there various quests would have a good chance of surviving?


As we see earlier in the book, Russ appears to be a powerful, if latent psyker in his own right. Maybe he was disipating Magnus' powers without even realising it. 

It also could have something to do with the startling revelation that Primarchs seem to have a completely different anatomy to normal humans. There is a passage where Ahriman is contemplating Magnus, and reveals that nothing so mundane as lungs, kidneys or liver are contained within him. We know Primarchs are so different as to be entirely different species from us, but even Eldar and Orks seem to share a similar physiology. Are the primarchs bodies just vessels for the warp enery used to create them?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Khorne's Fist said:


> As we see earlier in the book, Russ appears to be a powerful, if latent psyker in his own right. Maybe he was disipating Magnus' powers without even realising it.
> 
> It also could have something to do with the startling revelation that Primarchs seem to have a completely different anatomy to normal humans. There is a passage where Ahriman is contemplating Magnus, and reveals that nothing so mundane as lungs, kidneys or liver are contained within him. We know Primarchs are so different as to be entirely different species from us, but even Eldar and Orks seem to share a similar physiology. Are the primarchs bodies just vessels for the warp enery used to create them?


I like the idea that the Primarchs are just vessels for the warp energy used to create them, and things certainly seem that way with the release of _A Thousand Sons_. This is also reinforced by the description of the death of Ferrus Manus.

It would mean that although Magnus is capable of taking down Titans single-handedly, his psychic powers are no way near as effective against other Primarchs due to their sheer presence in the warp, note his duel with Russ.

Its also heavily implied that the Emperor bargained with the Chaos Gods in order to create the Primarchs in the first place, which changes my perception of the Primarchs completley.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Its also heavily implied that the Emperor bargained with the Chaos Gods in order to create the Primarchs in the first place, which changes my perception of the Primarchs completley.


Yeah, I agree. I think it's in False Gods, during Horus's vision of the snatching of the primarch's birthing pods that it's mentioned that the gods are doing it in revenge for being tricked by the Emperor. I think it was in the bargaining for the powers to create the primarchs that he managed to trick them, and if so, the primarch project was doomed from the start.



deathbringer said:


> Would this suggest that the primarch's that went into the warp on their various quests would have a good chance of surviving?


It's fairly safe to assume that they would have an excellent chance of surviving, considering the SW 13th company managed it.


----------



## Brother Subtle

Finally! Brother subtle in little forgotten Australia has found a way! The following is an extract from an email I recieved today!

"Ryan,


Hi, just confirming that your order...

A Thousand Sons
&
Soul hunter

...is packed and heading for the post office now.

As per your instructions, it is shipping via EXPRESS POST (#MN896###) to... (my addy)"


----------



## ckcrawford

Hey folks back again, was reading up this thread. I must say this book was very good. Definitley one of the best. The battle was definitley very easy especially since Magnus was considering letting his entire legion and world be destroyed. The battle was real close. I can't imagine what would have happened if Magnus had manned all the guns and shot all of them from orbit. I was also glad to hear that the Thousand Sons were generally pretty fond of the Iron Warriors (my favorite legion) in which they are described to be the best legion second to only the thousand sons. I just had a few questions about what happened. 

1. What happened to Magnus after he was beaten? From what I took he died and was made into a daemon prince in a world deep within the eye of terror.

2. What is the reference "There are no wolves on Fenris?" When I read it I thought it implied that there was something dark and deeper about the Wolves that perhaps would explain Dan Abnett's emphasis on the book trailer when he said that the Wolves were created to destroy another legion.

3. The idea about the Blood Ravens being the lost sons is indeed very fascinating. How do you think a chapter or even a few companies were able to escape the burning of Prospero.

4. How do you guys think the thousand sons would be able to hold their legion if they, or it least it sounded like the rubric was pretty much used soon after. Would that mean that they are pretty much limited to around a thousand ever since the Heresy? I find that hard to believe.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

ckcrawford said:


> The battle was real close. I can't imagine what would have happened if Magnus had manned all the guns and shot all of them from orbit.


If Magnus decided to fight he could have destroyed the entire Space Wolf fleet before they even broke Warp for in the Prospero Sector. Heck even Tzeentch offers to destroy them for him!



ckcrawford said:


> I was also glad to hear that the Thousand Sons were generally pretty fond of the Iron Warriors (my favorite legion) in which they are described to be the best legion second to only the thousand sons.


Khalophis ranked the Iron Warriors as second only to the Thousand Sons. It wasn't necessarily a commonly held belief among the Legion of Magnus. 



ckcrawford said:


> 1. What happened to Magnus after he was beaten? From what I took he died and was made into a daemon prince in a world deep within the eye of terror.


He was elevated to Daemon Prince of Tzeentch. And the planet was the _Planet of the Sorcerers_ in the Eye of Terror.



ckcrawford said:


> 2. What is the reference "There are no wolves on Fenris?" When I read it I thought it implied that there was something dark and deeper about the Wolves that perhaps would explain Dan Abnett's emphasis on the book trailer when he said that the Wolves were created to destroy another legion.


As far as we know nothing sinister like that. Its merely because in order for life to survive and flourish on a death world like Fenris, so much gene and physical enhancement was needed that the 'wolves' could hardly be called 'wolves'.



ckcrawford said:


> 3. The idea about the Blood Ravens being the lost sons is indeed very fascinating. How do you think a chapter or even a few companies were able to escape the burning of Prospero.


Well, we didn't hear anything about the Thousand Sons' Fleet which Magnus dispersed. Perhaps some of them escaped and were to form the Blood Ravens?



ckcrawford said:


> 4. How do you guys think the thousand sons would be able to hold their legion if they, or it least it sounded like the rubric was pretty much used soon after. Would that mean that they are pretty much limited to around a thousand ever since the Heresy? I find that hard to believe.


Well its possible. They are _A Thousand Sons_ for a reason after all, remembering that nothing is a coincidence


----------



## ckcrawford

Its good to hear some more about the Iron Warriors. LOL
Anyhow, so in regards to Magnus turning to a Daemon Prince, did he teleport to the planet before he died or was he resurrected in the eye of terror? I wasn't sure if Leman Russ indeed was able to cut Magnus' head or if at the time the rest of the thousand sons were teleported that Magnus also teleported himself


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

ckcrawford said:


> Its good to hear some more about the Iron Warriors. LOL
> Anyhow, so in regards to Magnus turning to a Daemon Prince, did he teleport to the planet before he died or was he resurrected in the eye of terror? I wasn't sure if Leman Russ indeed was able to cut Magnus' head or if at the time the rest of the thousand sons were teleported that Magnus also teleported himself


No Magnus wasn't killed. He 'escaped' before Leman Russ could get the killing blow.


----------



## deathbringer

ckcrawford said:


> 3. The idea about the Blood Ravens being the lost sons is indeed very fascinating. How do you think a chapter or even a few companies were able to escape the burning of Prospero.


Well around the time all this was going own people like Mhotep from Battle for th Abyss, appauling book but still has factual use, Mhotep was still out in the imperium and still loyal to the emperor so its highly possible that the founders of the blood ravens were never on prospero.

Plus as previously mentioned the thousand sons sent people to other legions to gain knowledge. Well those studying with chapters like the imperial fists could well have become the founders.


@COE: What I dont understand is surely the emperor knew magnus's powers and knew he could tear the fleet apart before they got close. So why send them... I mean it was a hug risk, if Magnus had turned and decided to fight the emperor could have lost some of his greatest weapons.

Russ and his anti astarts legion
Valdor and a significant part of his custodes

However I guess he had no alternative... who else to send? with him stuck on the fancy toilet there was nothing else he could do


----------



## World Eater XII

maybe the Big E figured magnus was still loyal and would take it like a man?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

deathbringer said:


> @COE: What I dont understand is surely the emperor knew magnus's powers and knew he could tear the fleet apart before they got close. So why send them... I mean it was a hug risk, if Magnus had turned and decided to fight the emperor could have lost some of his greatest weapons.
> 
> Russ and his anti astarts legion
> Valdor and a significant part of his custodes
> 
> However I guess he had no alternative... who else to send? with him stuck on the fancy toilet there was nothing else he could do





World Eater XII said:


> maybe the Big E figured magnus was still loyal and would take it like a man?


A very good point.

As the World Eater says, it may have been that the Emperor banked on Magnus staying loyal and not fighting (which is obviously what he did for most of the time). But considering he thought/knew Magnus was corrupted it was hardly a safe bet.

I think were just gonna have to label it as another one of those 'unknown' things


----------



## World Eater XII

also itd be a bit crap fluff wise if he did maul the spacca pups....wait no id rather he did and then i wouldnt get trounced by them!


----------



## space cowboy

I wouldn't be surprised to find out in _Prospero Burns_ that the Space Wolves and the Custodes weren't supposed to kill Magnus, but merely take him prisoner and bring him back to Terra. After all, Magnus doesn't really get to talk much to the Emperor after he is pulled back through the warp to Prospero. This would make sense if the Emperor tells his custodes and the Russ that Magnus won't fight back, they show up, and the 1k Sons are fighting, and they just decide 'Screw it, they're fighting so Magnus must be as well,' and start going all out.

I would also not be surprised to find out that the Space Wolves were the legion that was utilized to end the two 'missing' legions. Abnett (I believe) intimates that the Space Wolves were possibly bred specifically for this kind of task, and that maybe they are the tool the Emperor uses when a legion needs to be cleansed. Perhaps Russ somehow adapts to be whatever his chosen foe is most unable to handle, or maybe the Space Wolf geneseed just makes tougher and more ferocious Space Marines than any other legion.

Either way (or some equally cool third way) will be alright by me, just so long as it is written well and doesn't come across as plot contradictory. I am not a fan of perspective storytelling when it comes to a series like this (especially when the whole series has been written from an neutral third-party perspective.)

On a side note, I would like to say that, while I thoroughly enjoyed _A Thousand Sons_, I still enjoyed _Legion_ the most of all of the novels. I just hope that, whatever novel is written about the Iron Warriors, keeps Perturabo as a villain and not some mis-understood, good intentions-having guy to whom bad stuff happens (although I would accept him playing the part of the assassin in a galaxy-wide Blood Game similar to what the Custodes play on Terra to test the palace's defenses.) I want some of the traitor Primarchs to be traitors for villainous reasons and not for noble ones.

Thanks,
Howard


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin

After the Emperor and Magnus have their 'mind-meld' in the Imperial Dungeon, I don't doubt that the Emperor knew exactly what his son was thinking and feeling. He would have known of Magnus' reaction to a fleet sent to take him prisoner/kill him.
However, as I posted in the other Thousand Sons thread (because for some reason I couldn't find this one; wierd, eh?), the Emperor must also have known of the truth of Magnus allegation of Horus' treachery. That's why Magnus did it, so that he could show the truth of his psychic vision, face-to-face. Which then makes us wonder if Horus is going to have been the one to change Russ' orders, wether Valdor's bitter words did it, wether Russ didn't need the prompting, or wether, after everything Magnus did and ruined, his father _still_ didn't believe him.
Maybe the big E's anger and disappointment at what had happened to the webway project and the destruction of the Golden Throne blinded him. Maybe the story will change. 
I really did like the fact the the Emperor had discovered the Golden Throne, something already built to do what he needed it to do. It does make you wonder about just how advanced Humanity was during the Dark Age of Technology. Might we have had our own webway entrance and used it as well as the Eldar? If so, the Emperor must have found the Black Library.
Just to complete my wall of text (apologies for going on so), my thoughts on the Chaos Gods and deals with the Emperor. I think, just like Magnus, he did do a deal with them. We have no idea what, or when, but doubtless he saw that in the end he couldn't win. The Primarchs might have been a second deal, but one made after a thousand lifetimes of experience and wisdom and one he knew he would have the better of. Horus seems to have made it another win for the dark gods, but... Whenever we come into the presence of the Emperor, we are given just a hint of his vast intellect and knowledge. He's not a human who forgets things and certainly learns from his mistakes. And I'm still not convinced, even after we see the failings of the Primarchs, beings in who the Emperor invested so much hope and work, that 40K isn't part of his plan. He'd waited for 38,000 years to start the Great Crusade; what's another 15,000?

GFP


----------



## World Eater XII

In regards to Russ, i dont think he needed much prompting to launch himself at magnus like a horny pup.

I reckon the big E really didnt believe horus would turn on him, maybe he believed the primarchs were safe(ish) from the touch of chaos? 

Humans with webway would be cool, but what about the wormholes that popped up in the word bearers book? are they eldar design?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

World Eater XII said:


> but what about the wormholes that popped up in the word bearers book? are they eldar design?


No, I don't think so. They seem to be natural occurences.


----------



## Barnster

Has any one noticed the thousand sons book has altered the time line? Before the surviving 1k sons used their fleet to blast through the wolves blockade of prospero to join horus (index astartes 1k sons) now they go straight to the P ot Sorcerers. None of the thousand sons actually know about tzeentch, and they believe that it was magnus who teleported them away to safety. Also rather than becoming a corrupt deamon prince, they view that magnus had ascended to a higher form of life. As such i have a couple questions/ thoughts. 

Are the actual sons even aware of Tzeentch and their corruption? Arihman is aware of a force known as the primordial destructor after his seizure at nikea, but that its 

Are the sons going to turn up at terra now? They never played a major role so... Their fleet is dispersed, and even when their planning the Rubric they still (or still believe) are loyal. in previous lore the Rubric happened after a fair time the seige


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## World Eater XII

were the Tsons present at the seige of terra?


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## Baron Spikey

Actually according to the Thousand Sons Index Astartes article the way Magnus' Astartes escaped Prospero is pretty much the same as stated in _A Thousand Sons_.

Yes the Thousand Sons were present for the Siege of Terra.


----------



## Barnster

According to the old fluff yes, their sorcerers opened a giant warp rift on terra. They were not involved to same extent as the sons of horus, emperors children, world eaters death guard or Iron warriors though in the actual fighting

The way magnus escaped prospero is the same but not the way the legion itself escaped. The warp gate/ teleport escape for the legion was after terra not prospero

I think it will be interesting where they take the thousand sons now, I hope we havent seen the last of them in the HH series (excluding prospero burns)


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## Baron Spikey

Nope, the Index Astartes article clearly states that it was through the sorceries of MAgnus that spirited what remained of his Legion off Prospero.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

The Baron is right in that regard.

But actually, did the Rubric occur before the Siege of Terra or after?


----------



## Baron Spikey

According to the same IA article the Rubric was enacted post-Heresy, though of course Ahriman has come up with the idea after the burning of Prospero but before the Siege of Terra.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Baron Spikey said:


> According to the same IA article the Rubric was enacted post-Heresy, though of course Ahriman has come up with the idea after the burning of Prospero but before the Siege of Terra.


What I thought, ta


----------



## World Eater XII

so how many of the legion survived the burning?


----------



## FORTHELION

1242 to be exact survived the burning. not alot. and a further 72 fell to the change in the short time they were on the planet of the sorcerors.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Or to put it into fractions- 1/10th of the Legion.


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin

This does suggest that the 1K Sons must be able to 'create', for want of a better word, rubric Marines. Let's face it, even if they peformed the Rubric as soon as Magnus comes back, there are just over 1000 Astartes left. No matter what, this is not a force that is going to play much of a role on a galactic scale. So, where are the other bodies going to come from?
It might be that, depending on what has happened to the bodies on Prospero after Magnus helped his Sons to escape, they scavenge the corpses of the dead, using the Tutelaries that took them over, to somehow 'rescue' their souls from the warp and bind it back into their armour so that they can gain vengance. If this was the sort of route they wanted to go down it would mean that fluff will change; I'm not against this at all as it is an evolving setting, not Holy Scripture delivered from on-high during the late 80s/early 90s.
I can't wait for Prospero Burns. I'm not sure that we'll learn much more about Magnus' Legion as it actually was, more like how it is viewed beyond the narrow vision we were given of them at Nikaea. But we might see their Imperial setting which could give us a wider view. Let's face it, I can't wait for the rest of the series- there are so many mysteries and myths to look in to, but also worlds and people for us to find out about that we have never heard of before.

GFP


----------



## nate187

Like COE and penguin mentioned as well as backing it up in the book too. Surely the emperor making bargins with the dark gods is open to interpretation weren't these facts stated by magnus himself there for opinionated???

The emperor that is said to have walked since the dawn of man kind making bargins with the ruinous powers for what??? the primarchs, STC? There is alotta chaos love out there. Four active gods!!! perhaps he represents the god of mankind like the eldar with khaine and the laughing god. Didnt the emperor suposably capture the void dragon the ctan were gods were they not? 

makes me wonder

hmmm something we can only wait to find out I spose


----------



## World Eater XII

didnt he pop up after the dark age of tech?


----------



## nate187

World Eater XII said:


> didnt he pop up after the dark age of tech?


I know mechanicum mentioned that he had been around since the dawn of time and that there has been other mentions of him guiding humanity for thousands of year in other black libary material will get back to you mate


----------



## revenant13

deathbringer said:


> What I was wondering was I was just reading the battle between Russ and Magnus.. Does this mean that all primarch's cant be damaged by psychic powers?
> 
> Russ seems pretty much impervious to the psychic energy unleashed by Magnus so I'm guessing because the primarch's have such a huge warp presence they are almost immune to the warp?
> 
> Would this suggest that the primarch's that went into the warp on there various quests would have a good chance of surviving?


i just wanted to toss what i thought out here. in the book it mentions that Russ' sword (Mjallnar i think) has got like 10 runes on the hilt, making it uberly powerful. when magnus and russ were fighting i assumed he just had a ton of runes all up on his armour as well, and wolf tail talismans, etc. considering how much he doesnt like magnus i figured russ had the intelligence to find some way to protect himself from the warp powers of his brother.

also if they _were_ immune to warp powers then the Emp would not have been able to kill horus in the end, especially if he was backed by 4 chaos gods on top of that.


----------



## ChaplinWhulfgar

Just got to the part of Kallista mentioning the Blood Ravens that pretty sweet. Can't wait for the SW perspective though.


----------



## deathbringer

revenant13 said:


> i just wanted to toss what i thought out here. in the book it mentions that Russ' sword (Mjallnar i think) has got like 10 runes on the hilt, making it uberly powerful. when magnus and russ were fighting i assumed he just had a ton of runes all up on his armour as well, and wolf tail talismans, etc. considering how much he doesnt like magnus i figured russ had the intelligence to find some way to protect himself from the warp powers of his brother.
> 
> also if they _were_ immune to warp powers then the Emp would not have been able to kill horus in the end, especially if he was backed by 4 chaos gods on top of that.


Possible but I dont know if talismans really have that much effect, however Russ was most definitely smart enough, especially as he brought untouchables with him to protect him.

However I'm sceptical about his understanding of sorcery and the warp considering his belief that the rune priests were merely using the winds of Fenris etc, its possible the rune priests gave him talismans and he was consequentially protected.

However due to the psychic roar that culled athaneans far and wide i believe it is more likely that being a creature whose body is bound and created by warp energy that he cant be harmed by it.

@GFP: I dont think they can. I personally think most of the thousand sons act through cultists with sorcerous abilities and they recruit the best and implant them with stolen geneseed. Also you hardly ever hear about a crusade of thousand sons, most of them hang out on the planet of sorcerors increasing there powers, thats my best guess. 

Also the other bands are always fighting amongst themselves, I reckon the thousand sons stay out of it, so there numbers are pretty near the thousand they began with, maybe even greater if they managed to steal geneseed.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

deathbringer said:


> I personally think most of the thousand sons act through cultists with sorcerous abilities and they recruit the best and implant them with stolen geneseed. Also you hardly ever hear about a crusade of thousand sons, most of them hang out on the planet of sorcerors increasing there powers, thats my best guess.
> 
> Also the other bands are always fighting amongst themselves, I reckon the thousand sons stay out of it, so there numbers are pretty near the thousand they began with, maybe even greater if they managed to steal geneseed.


This may be the way some of the other traitor legions recruit new members (Honsou of the Iron Warriors, for instance), but the 1k sons are all empty suits of armour except for the sorcerors. I don't think there have been any new recruits since the Heresy. The 1k sons sorcerors may encourage newer traitor marines devoted to tzeentch, but I don't believe they actively look to create brand new marines.

Considering the low numbers that managed to escape from Prospero, I would say their numbers are dwindling extremely low at this stage.


----------



## deathbringer

I was talking sorcerors not rubrics in terms of recruitment, and if a psyker was powerful enough and they had the geneseed i cant see why they wouldn't initiate him into the ranks of the thousand sons.

As for rubrics, they are suits of armour with dust inside. 

To quote the Chaos Marine Codex

"Truly mutation would plague them no more but there spirits lived on inside their battle armour for all eternity"

I personally believe that this indicates that the rubrics can never be truly destroyed. The armour might be harmed the thousand sons recover and repair them. I honestly believe that nothing can destroy the soul of the thousand sons unless there armour is totally destroyed. 

For example if a rubric is beheaded or a leg is blown off it cant fight on and will just lie there. However after the battle it will be repaired, by sorcerous means or another means and then the rubric will be able to fight again.


----------



## Commissar Ploss

deathbringer said:


> I was talking sorcerors not rubrics in terms of recruitment, and if a psyker was powerful enough and they had the geneseed i cant see why they wouldn't initiate him into the ranks of the thousand sons.
> 
> As for rubrics, they are suits of armour with dust inside.
> 
> To quote the Chaos Marine Codex
> 
> "Truly mutation would plague them no more but there spirits lived on inside their battle armour for all eternity"
> 
> I personally believe that this indicates that the rubrics can never be truly destroyed. The armour might be harmed the thousand sons recover and repair them. I honestly believe that nothing can destroy the soul of the thousand sons unless there armour is totally destroyed.
> 
> For example if a rubric is beheaded or a leg is blown off it cant fight on and will just lie there. However after the battle it will be repaired, by sorcerous means or another means and then the rubric will be able to fight again.


it was made clear to me that the souls of those who inhabited the suits have actually bonded with the suits machine spirit, and therefor are in conflict with it. not really in conflict, but as a result, move slower and more methodically. The only way they can be destroyed is if the suit is destroyed. and as you say deathbringer, they are possibly recovered after battle and fixed in a sense. 

CP


----------



## MontytheMighty

FORTHELION said:


> Lads its not the raven guard the hint is to its the blood ravens. its a hint to where they actually came from as they dont know.


that is so bloody obvious now that you've mentioned it


----------



## Legio Custode

Just finished the book and loved it...

Such a sad story for truly loyal sons of the Imperium.

I have lost my respect for the Space Wolves, they were looking for any excuse they could to destroy Magnus. If only the Emperor was alive now he would have bitch slapped Russ for disobeying the order to bring Magnus into custody.

Infact if i was the Emperor i'd bitch slap the lot of them, except Sangy hes cool k:

Horus because of the obvious, i'd perhaps just give Magnus, Fulgrim, Lorgar and Perturabo a telling off cos they have an inferiority complex. Bitch slap Dorn because he keeps winding up Perturabo, bitch slap Guilliman just cos he annoys me. 

Now with Kurze i'd give him a hug and a hot chocolate and tell him everythings okay!

I'd give Corax and Ferrus Manus a biscuit cos they were good little boys.

I'd hire an escort for Angron cos i think he just has too much testosterone built up inside. 

Kharn and Vulkan can chill with me in the v.i.p room, im not even going to go there with Mortarion, the guy just has far too many issues.

the Alparius and Omegon twins i'd just build them a nice big tree house for them to play covert ops in, that should keep them busy. 

Yeah i think if i was the Emperor, i'd still have everything under control.


----------



## forkmaster

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Well, we didn't hear anything about the Thousand Sons' Fleet which Magnus dispersed. Perhaps some of them escaped and were to form the Blood Ravens


What Im curious about is the 3 remebrancers that "escaped", their fates is uncertain as Russ could have destroyed their ship or he could have let them live. Or they could have escaped from his "fangs" to say so.


----------



## deathbringer

I dont have the book to hand but i read it that there ship was destroyed as the fleet scattered

Honestly i dont remember my recollections of that part are overshadowed by the awesomeness of Phsosis T'kar's destruction of the sisters and how he accepted his fate.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Legio Custode said:


> If only the Emperor was alive now he would have bitch slapped Russ for disobeying the order to bring Magnus into custody.


What makes you so sure that the Emperor didn't order Magnus killed?



deathbringer said:


> I dont have the book to hand but i read it that there ship was destroyed as the fleet scattered


I havn't got my book to hand either, but im pretty sure it didn't conclude with the fate of the Remembrancers, it just stops talking about them as the Space Wolf fleet breaks warp.



forkmaster said:


> What Im curious about is the 3 remebrancers that "escaped", their fates is uncertain as Russ could have destroyed their ship or he could have let them live. Or they could have escaped from his "fangs" to say so.


Aye, I imagine we'll find out their fate in _Prospero Burns_.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

deathbringer said:


> I dont have the book to hand but i read it that there ship was destroyed as the fleet scattered


The last we see of the remembrancers is when they witness the SW fleet breaking from the warp. One of them recognises Russ's flag ship, (the _Hrafngel_ or something like that.) and they don't appear again. There is no further mention of them or their ship, so it is plausible they are still alive, possibly captured.


----------



## chaoslover

I have just finished reading thousand sons and thought it was a very good book overall! with alot of new info..... however i think there were def problems with it aswell.... i feel that too much was crammed in and in general felt rushed, and i know that there is so much to tell so i do understand why maybe it was rushed imo. also i feel as with most of the hh books that they concentrate whole sections on inconsequential characters.... i maybe in the minority but feel the remembrancers are just filler for the book. approx 1 third of the book was of them? perhaps more on the council of nikea? more on interactions between primarchs? Why would the emperor not have personal conversations with the 4 of his sons that were there? maybe that could have been in there? also felt the fight between magnus and russ was very very rushed! and poor compared to other interactions such as in Fulgrim.....
this aside i do love the book (HONESTLY LOL) but just getting a bit sick of the series with the senseless filling.....
One final thing and this is a question? are the Custodes untouchables? because before this book i thought they were, but im probably wrong.... thanks for reading the rant


----------



## forkmaster

Speaking of no coincidences, are you thought about that there is 9 fellowships of the Thousand Sons (9 being Tzeentchs sacred number), Mortarion being obsessed with the number 7 (Nurgles sacred number); 7 great companies, the Shroud/bodyguard being around within a certain number divided by 7 and Kharn being a member of 8th company (8 being Khornes scared number and he is Khornes champion).


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

chaoslover said:


> I have just finished reading thousand sons and thought it was a very good book overall! with alot of new info..... however i think there were def problems with it aswell.... i feel that too much was crammed in and in general felt rushed, and i know that there is so much to tell so i do understand why maybe it was rushed imo. also i feel as with most of the hh books that they concentrate whole sections on inconsequential characters.... i maybe in the minority but feel the remembrancers are just filler for the book. approx 1 third of the book was of them? perhaps more on the council of nikea? more on interactions between primarchs? Why would the emperor not have personal conversations with the 4 of his sons that were there? maybe that could have been in there? also felt the fight between magnus and russ was very very rushed! and poor compared to other interactions such as in Fulgrim.....
> this aside i do love the book (HONESTLY LOL) but just getting a bit sick of the series with the senseless filling.....


The Remembrancer additions I feel are generally included to draw a comparison between normal humans and Astartes. Instead of the novels solely being focused on these aloof superhuman demi-gods, it partly focuses on normal humans who interact with them. It also gives the opportunity for interesting plot twists that arn't based around Astartes. And to be honest if the entire series was just Astartes and Primarchs I know I at least would soon tire of them.



chaoslover said:


> One final thing and this is a question? are the Custodes untouchables? because before this book i thought they were, but im probably wrong.... thanks for reading the rant


No Custodians are not blanks/untouchables.



forkmaster said:


> Speaking of no coincidences, are you thought about that there is 9 fellowships of the Thousand Sons (9 being Tzeentchs sacred number), Mortarion being obsessed with the number 7 (Nurgles sacred number); 7 great companies, the Shroud/bodyguard being around within a certain number divided by 7 and Kharn being a member of 8th company (8 being Khornes scared number and he is Khornes champion).


Yeah there are tonnes of references in _A Thousand Sons_ to Tzeentch's sacred number. First time I read it I counted around 15, which only goes to further prove that Tzeentch had sealed their fate before Magnus was even created.


----------



## chaoslover

thanks child of the emperor.... yeah i understand why they are there and i quite like them except for what they take away from info that could be included, if that makes sense. and glad they not untouchables as would have been a huge mistake by author. thanks again


----------



## forkmaster

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Remembrancer additions I feel are generally included to draw a comparison between normal humans and Astartes. Instead of the novels solely being focused on these aloof superhuman demi-gods, it partly focuses on normal humans who interact with them. It also gives the opportunity for interesting plot twists that arn't based around Astartes. And to be honest if the entire series was just Astartes and Primarchs I know I at least would soon tire of them.


Ditto, I get a more feeling more is at stake than just lives of immortals. Through the eyes of the remembrancers, even though you grow really attached to them, their lives could end in a instant. I remember when I almost finished reading Fulgrim when Ostian Delafour had been killed by Fulgrim and his love of his life Serina D`Angelus killed herself to be "together" in death, I almost wept.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No Custodians are not blanks/untouchables.


Wasn't it the Silent Sisterhood that were the [psychic] blanks, emptying the Thousand Sons powers?



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yeah there are tonnes of references in _A Thousand Sons_ to Tzeentch's sacred number. First time I read it I counted around 15, which only goes to further prove that Tzeentch had sealed their fate before Magnus was even created.


Oh, now Im intrigued, what did you find?


----------



## Mossy Toes

If you read closely, the SW fleet breaks into orbit just as the remembrancers' ship is about to plunge into the warp--33 seconds before, in fact. So it's safe to say that they got away. (pg. 470)

Additionally, the previous edition of the CSM codex had a blurb about Ahriman hunting down, reading, and destroying the "lost books of Kallimakus", which was, in my mind, quite obviously the inspiration for Kallimakus in the first place.


The Custodes as untouchables was another thing that rankled me, too. It was quite clear that they weren't in the Battle for Prospero, but the Triumph of Ullanor gave a completely different impression--until one rereads it and sees that there are 7 _female_ Untouchables, and Custodes too, seperately. McNeill never really makes it clear that the reason Ahriman can't sense the Custodes is because of the deadening effect of the Untouchables, not any cause of the Custodes themselves. Still, it's merely a bit of clumsy ambiguity, nothing fluff-violating. (pg. 260)


I, personally, read into the manipulation of Magnus/the 1ksons so far as to see Tzeentch's hand in even the statue which chose that opportune moment to topple, and how its shards were arranged. The Primordial Creator/Annihilator, indeed...

Plus, I'd be willing to bet a great deal that Choronzon, the Daemon of Dispersion, is Tzeentchi in nature. I think that McNeill conveyed quite well how Magnus was allowed to hang himself with such a fine, ineffable wire of fate and such subtle chaotic manipulation. It was done a damn sight better than in _Fulgrim_, to be sure, and even that was impressive.


Something which I'm surprised that nobody (that I've seen) has pointed out--how well-portrayed Ahriman's casting of the Rubric was. That is, that the prologue takes place immediately after, with Magnus coming to destroy Ahriman, and the epilogue taking place as he is trying to convince the coven to do it...

So, all in all, an excellent book. k: :biggrin:


----------



## Bakunin

"Lemuel followed his friends on board. as the hatch slid shut behind him, he had what he knew would be his lasr sight of Prospero.
"He was wrong about that."
A thousand Sons p.468

That kind of suggests the Remembrancers susrvived and later return to Prospero.


----------



## FORTHELION

Mossy Toes said:


> Something which I'm surprised that nobody (that I've seen) has pointed out--how well-portrayed Ahriman's casting of the Rubric was. That is, that the prologue takes place immediately after, with Magnus coming to destroy Ahriman, and the epilogue taking place as he is trying to convince the coven to do it...
> 
> So, all in all, an excellent book. k: :biggrin:


Not sure what your talking about here. Ahriman doesnt cast the rubric in this book or maybe i completey missed something so obvious. I doubt it though


----------



## Baron Spikey

Yes you missed something very obvious.

The prologue to the book is set just after Ahriman has unleashed his Rubric.


----------



## Phil73805

It's hardly surprising that someone would forget the prologue after reading through a 558 page roller coaster of a tale! It's the sort of book that deserves a second reading...and then a third...and then, well you get the idea


----------



## Zooey72

Maybe someone has already stated this, but I saw this part coming when Ahriman told lemuel about the origin of the "1000 sons" name. He asks the question, which is never answered "how did the emp know to name you that?"

Ya, fitting name as far as it goes... Like the emp. knew all along what their fate was.

Also notice how at the end of the book there are little over 1000 astartes left, and many falling to mutation? All the while Ahriman is trying to start his "cure". Who wants to make the bet he does his "cure" right when they are at 1000?

The emp. is pretty twisted!


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

forkmaster said:


> Oh, now Im intrigued, what did you find?


Okay well I'll give a few examples, as Im not planning on rereading the book right now:



There are 63 ships in the 28th Expeditionary Fleet (Page 29) - (63 being a multiple of 9).


There are 9 Fellowships in the Legion (Page 39).


873 battle-brothers were killed during the Kamenka Troika campaign (Page 42) - (873 being a multiple of 9).


Magnus attented to by 81 Scarab Occult Terminators (Page 100) - (81 being a multiple of 9).


9 Primarchs being present on Ullanor (Page 264).


The 'Eight-Rayed Star' appearing during Lemuel's training (Page 278).


81 streets radiated from Occullum square on Prospero (Page 366) - (81 being a multiple of 9).


The white slab (used in the ritual to try and save Horus) was processed around 9 times (Page 410).


1242 Thousand Sons survived the Burning of Prospero (Page 554) - (1242 being a multiple of 9).


72 Thousand Sons succumb to the flesh-change since arriving on the Planet of the Sorcerers (Page 556) - (72 being a multiple of 9).


The number of Thousand Sons left just before the Rubric is 1170 (1242-72) - (1170 being a multiple of 9).

And im sure i've missed quite a few out.

Also I noticed a few other veiled references recently:

A mention of Alpharius Omegon was one; "Great carvings were worked into the mechanised doors: entwined siblings, dreadful sagittary, a rearing Lion, the scales of justice and many more" - Page 440.

Now to me these obviously represent the Primarchs:

Entwined Siblings = Alpharius Omegon.
Dreadful Sagittary = Horus.
A Rearing Lion = Lion El'Jonson
The Scales of Justice = possibly Mortarion.

And also possibly a veiled mention of the 13th Company; "It was not silent, this blackness, but filled with myriad howls, as though hunting packs of wolves stalked the unseen corners between worlds with them. Was there to be no escape from the Emperor's war dogs?" - Page 551

Considering that was when the Thousand Sons were being transported to the Planet of the Sorcerers, and we know the 13th Company went into the Eye after them... or am I reading into it too much?!


----------



## World Eater XII

Good effort on those matey!


----------



## forkmaster

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Okay well I'll give a few examples, as Im not planning on rereading the book right now:
> 
> 
> 
> There are 63 ships in the 28th Expeditionary Fleet (Page 29) - (63 being a multiple of 9).
> 
> 
> There are 9 Fellowships in the Legion (Page 39).
> 
> 
> 873 battle-brothers were killed during the Kamenka Troika campaign (Page 42) - (873 being a multiple of 9).
> 
> 
> Magnus attented to by 81 Scarab Occult Terminators (Page 100) - (81 being a multiple of 9).
> 
> 
> 9 Primarchs being present on Ullanor (Page 264).
> 
> 
> The 'Eight-Rayed Star' appearing during Lemuel's training (Page 278).
> 
> 
> 81 streets radiated from Occullum square on Prospero (Page 366) - (81 being a multiple of 9).
> 
> 
> The white slab (used in the ritual to try and save Horus) was processed around 9 times (Page 410).
> 
> 
> 1242 Thousand Sons survived the Burning of Prospero (Page 554) - (1242 being a multiple of 9).
> 
> 
> 72 Thousand Sons succumb to the flesh-change since arriving on the Planet of the Sorcerers (Page 556) - (72 being a multiple of 9).
> 
> 
> The number of Thousand Sons left just before the Rubric is 1170 (1242-72) - (1170 being a multiple of 9).
> 
> And im sure i've missed quite a few out.
> 
> Also I noticed a few other veiled references recently:
> 
> A mention of Alpharius Omegon was one; "Great carvings were worked into the mechanised doors: entwined siblings, dreadful sagittary, a rearing Lion, the scales of justice and many more" - Page 440.
> 
> Now to me these obviously represent the Primarchs:
> 
> Entwined Siblings = Alpharius Omegon.
> Dreadful Sagittary = Horus.
> A Rearing Lion = Lion El'Jonson
> The Scales of Justice = possibly Mortarion.
> 
> And also possibly a veiled mention of the 13th Company; "It was not silent, this blackness, but filled with myriad howls, as though hunting packs of wolves stalked the unseen corners between worlds with them. Was there to be no escape from the Emperor's war dogs?" - Page 551
> 
> Considering that was when the Thousand Sons were being transported to the Planet of the Sorcerers, and we know the 13th Company went into the Eye after them... or am I reading into it too much?!


Woah talk about putting small details only a furrowly person would noticed. Interesting and thank you for answering.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And also possibly a veiled mention of the 13th Company; "It was not silent, this blackness, but filled with myriad howls, as though hunting packs of wolves stalked the unseen corners between worlds with them. Was there to be no escape from the Emperor's war dogs?" - Page 551
> 
> Considering that was when the Thousand Sons were being transported to the Planet of the Sorcerers, and we know the 13th Company went into the Eye after them... or am I reading into it too much?!


Well spotted. I was in such a hurry to finish the book I missed the meaning behind that. I think I'll have to go back and read it at a more leasurly pace.


----------



## Zooey72

I was wondering where there is more 1000 sons fluff - post heresy. What book has Ahriman and the library...


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Zooey72 said:


> What book has Ahriman and the library...


I believe its one of the Dawn of War Novels by C.S Goto.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Also I noticed a few other veiled references recently:
> 
> A mention of Alpharius Omegon was one; "Great carvings were worked into the mechanised doors: entwined siblings, dreadful sagittary, a rearing Lion, the scales of justice and many more" - Page 440.
> 
> Now to me these obviously represent the Primarchs:
> 
> Entwined Siblings = Alpharius Omegon.
> Dreadful Sagittary = Horus.
> A Rearing Lion = Lion El'Jonson
> The Scales of Justice = possibly Mortarion.


I contacted Graham Mcneill in regards to this recently and thought I would share what was said: 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> ...On page 440:
> 
> 'Great carvings were worked into the mechanised doors: entwined siblings, dreadful sagittary, a rearing Lion, the scales of justice and many more.'
> 
> Now in my mind, I see it as obvious that these symbols carved into the gates to the Imperial Dungeon represent the Primarchs:
> 
> Entwined Siblings = Alpharius Omegon.
> Dreadful Sagittary = Horus.
> A Rearing Lion = Lion El\'Jonson
> The Scales of Justice = possibly Mortarion.
> 
> My question is in regards to the 'entwined siblings'. If those symbols do represent the Primarchs, and the 'entwined siblings' does refer to Alpharius Omegon, does that mean that despite Alpharius' claim that no one outside the Last Legion is aware of Omegon, that the Emperor is actually aware (it seems perfectly plausable considering he was also aware of Corax's 'invisibility' (ish) for example?) This itself begs a further few questions like: Did the Emperor engineer them to be twins in the first place? And what implications would the biggest secret of the Alpha Legion being compromised have? I was just wondering whether you intended this implication and what your thoughts on it were...





Graham Mcneill said:


> ...No bother... My feeling on the door’s carvings (if your interpretation is correct...) is that the Emperor _must_ have known, what with watching over the incubation capsules until they were stolen by the gods of Chaos. As to the implications, well, you’ll just have to wait and see...


Does this add another implication to there being another Alpha Legion Heresy novel?


----------



## FORTHELION

Yeah sounds plausible about another book.

I was also wondering when i read that book why the lion was included with the other traitor primarchs, though i came up with a different possiblity that all the references could have been about the alpha legion.

Entwined twins= Alpharius/Omegon
Dreadful Saggitary = Alpharius
A rearing lion = Omegon
The scales of justice = Both primarchs personalities combined keeping both of them in balance. 

Just my thoughts what do you think?


----------



## Barnster

I was wondering what you guys though about the connection between the emperor and ahriman?

Throughout the book ahriman talks about the emperor in a much more bonded way than the other HH characters do, and talks about him in the same sort of way that the primarchs do. I was under the impression that he had been close to the emperor and they had meet long before nikea. even after prospero he seeks to rejoin the emperor. 

This would beg the question whether he and even magnus are still in contact with the emperor in 40k or could contact him. Just an idea shot it as you will


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

FORTHELION said:


> I was also wondering when i read that book why the lion was included with the other traitor primarchs


It just gave the example of four symbols, but that 'and many more... (were included)' - so in essence its safe to assume that a symbol for each Primarch was engraved onto the door.



FORTHELION said:


> though i came up with a different possiblity that all the references could have been about the alpha legion.
> 
> Entwined twins= Alpharius/Omegon
> Dreadful Saggitary = Alpharius
> A rearing lion = Omegon
> The scales of justice = Both primarchs personalities combined keeping both of them in balance.
> 
> Just my thoughts what do you think?


Personally, I very much doubt it. The engravings are just too obviously different Primarchs in my opinion. We know that the Emperor referred to Horus as the 'Dreadful Saggitary' (from _Horus Rising_ I believe it was). The 'Rearing Lion' is obviously Jonson. The 'Entwined Twins' obviously being Alpharius. And the Scales of Justice likely representing Mortarion in my opinion.

It would also bring up the issue of why would the Emperor only have carvings representing Alpharius Omegon and the Last Legion? Alpharius has never been noting as being particually close to the Emperor, and never as one of his favourite Primarchs/Legions. It just wouldn't fit.


----------



## Barnster

The signs of the zodiac appear quite alot to represent primarchs, but we only have 12 signs and 20 (18 depending on you pov) primarchs


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Barnster said:


> The signs of the zodiac appear quite alot to represent primarchs, but we only have 12 signs and 20 (18 depending on you pov) primarchs


'He told me that the twenty signs in the heaven would one day be matched by twenty sons like me. Each son would embody the character and notion of a particular zodiac group.' - _Horus Rising_ Page 354.

However I think its widely assumed that its not the Zodiac that represents the Primarchs, but the faces of the Tarot.

See Here for the Arcana/Tarot faces. Discount _The Fool_ as zero, and generally speaking the remaining 21 fit nicely with the Primarchs and Emperor.

There is also a great website which links each one to the Primarchs and the Emperor, but it seems to be down currently. Heres the Link anyway though.


----------



## Graf Spee

well, not his worst book, but still far from being good. why does he state that magnus bargained with chaos in the very beginning to save his legion? the emperor would have found out the second the geneseed turned stable again. because for sure he would have investigated such a miracle.
and the counsel of nikae was a pathetic piece of work. it reads like some elementary school boy wrote a story about pokemon training. such immensly dumb and childish argumentation with no wits or skills of writing whatsoever..
and i simply hate it that he let's the emperor appear and speak in nearly all of his heresy novels. the emperor should not be touched in any way. it takes away the mystery of the most important figure and puts it into the hands of some unwitted author who srews it up.

maybe i should not compare everything to dan abnetts skills. but unintelligent writing just puts me off. a thousand sons could have offered so much more. a pity.


----------



## FORTHELION

I couldnt disagree with you more, the book was brilliantly written. I think you are just blinkered into thinking that no one else can write for black library other than dan abnett.
where i agree that abnett is a great writer he is not a god and just because someone else writes a book people like you in here think it must be shit.

Mc Neill couldnt have written it better than he did. Im just sick of people banging on about Abnett and comparing everybody elses work with his.

Sorry that might be a bit over the top. I was having a bad day yesterday and needed to vent a bit.


----------



## World Eater XII

I agree with FTL, it is a great addition to the HH series.

The council of nikae would have been its own dam book if they went into all detail and arguments etc.

Thousand sons is already a beefy book, it doesn't need another 100pages of superhuman politics!

I think its good that the Big E turns up now and then because it shows back in the 30k verse, he wasnt just a skeleton on a golden urinal, he was about and kicking ass.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Graf Spee said:


> well, not his worst book, but still far from being good. why does he state that magnus bargained with chaos in the very beginning to save his legion? the emperor would have found out the second the geneseed turned stable again. because for sure he would have investigated such a miracle.
> and the counsel of nikae was a pathetic piece of work. it reads like some elementary school boy wrote a story about pokemon training. such immensly dumb and childish argumentation with no wits or skills of writing whatsoever..
> and i simply hate it that he let's the emperor appear and speak in nearly all of his heresy novels. the emperor should not be touched in any way. it takes away the mystery of the most important figure and puts it into the hands of some unwitted author who srews it up.
> 
> maybe i should not compare everything to dan abnetts skills. but unintelligent writing just puts me off. a thousand sons could have offered so much more. a pity.


I can sympathise with your view, although I do not totally agree with it. _A Thousand Sons_ wasn't my favourite Heresy novel, but it certainly trumps a fair few. I agree with you that the council of Nikaea was underdone (although this is partly justified in the novel, as don't both Magnus and Ahriman pass out for parts of it? Therefore we as readers miss parts of it) although _World Eater XII_ is correct in saying that the novel is the largest Heresy novel to date, it couldn't have afforded to include any more than it did. Although I do agree with you in the sense that it wasn't fantastically written, but it was highly enjoyable.



World Eater XII said:


> I think its good that the Big E turns up now and then because it shows back in the 30k verse, he wasnt just a skeleton on a golden urinal, he was about and kicking ass.


Indeed. The Emperor has made fleeting appearances (at best) in the Heresy Series so far, and were 12 books in. Which I think is a good thing, keeping him at a distance and not having any novels from his point of view keeps his aloof and mysterious nature solid. But ultimately this is a series of novels which has no choice but to include the Emperor, he is a major character (probably _the_ most major character) in shaping the Galactic scene during this period. And he obviously has to be included when we reach the Siege of Terra.


----------



## deathbringer

FORTHELION said:


> I couldnt disagree with you more, the book was brilliantly written. I think you are just blinkered into thinking that no one else can write for black library other than dan abnett.
> where i agree that abnett is a great writer he is not a god and just because someone else writes a book people like you in here think it must be shit.
> 
> Mc Neill couldnt have written it better than he did. Im just sick of people banging on about Abnett and comparing everybody elses work with his.
> 
> Sorry that might be a bit over the top. I was having a bad day yesterday and needed to vent a bit.


Got to agree, i thought the style was fluid, the descriptions excellent and the inquisitively blinkered thousand sons charactors were engaging and entertaining, didnt have a single complaint


----------



## donskar

Graf Spee said:


> well, not his worst book, but still far from being good. why does he state that magnus bargained with chaos in the very beginning to save his legion? the emperor would have found out the second the geneseed turned stable again. because for sure he would have investigated such a miracle.
> and the counsel of nikae was a pathetic piece of work. it reads like some elementary school boy wrote a story about pokemon training. such immensly dumb and childish argumentation with no wits or skills of writing whatsoever..
> and i simply hate it that he let's the emperor appear and speak in nearly all of his heresy novels. the emperor should not be touched in any way. it takes away the mystery of the most important figure and puts it into the hands of some unwitted author who srews it up.
> 
> maybe i should not compare everything to dan abnetts skills. but unintelligent writing just puts me off. a thousand sons could have offered so much more. a pity.


OK, so it wasn't the book YOU would have written. And its content wasn't exactly what YOU would have liked. Fair enough, but that's all beside the point, because the book McNeil DID write is a good piece of work. It is long, but needs to be. It is a little difficult to follow at times, but the content is complex. 

"far from being good"? You have a right to your opinion, but I see no support for it, and strongly disagree with it.


----------



## Graf Spee

donskar said:


> "far from being good"? You have a right to your opinion, but I see no support for it, and strongly disagree with it.



yeah, but he's still a lousy writer with no narrative skill at all. sometimes i think he has not even heard about structure, sentence arrangement or hyperbole at all..
and the context for sure is not complex. but should have been, right? 

i understand that this hobby attracts many people trying to write for it. but sadly that's all they normally do. just trying. and it's pretty sad, cuz i love 40k quite much (still after all this years and the strange remodelling of the fluff over the last decade). as far as my opinion goes there are only three writers in the 40k environment that are up to the job. and actually to get some other skilled ones is hard as they couldn't catch up with the fluff, i think.


----------



## World Eater XII

Back up that argument 'cause all i see is a half arsed whinge 

And pray tell who are these 3writers?


----------



## Baron Spikey

World Eater XII said:


> Back up that argument 'cause all i see is a half arsed whinge
> 
> And pray tell who are these 3writers?


It's not an argument, it's an opinion he doesn't have to back up anything- in a way kudos Graf for knowing exactly what you do and don't like, some people might have felt pressured into remaining quiet regarding their dislike of a popular BL author.


----------



## World Eater XII

Fair point.

However hes comparing Mcneil to, who i think is THE most popular bl author, Dan abbnet.

Bit cheap in my opinion, cant really expect all writers to have same stlye or skill.


----------



## Graf Spee

keep it nice people. but good to see some controversial discussion. thanks for pros and cons.

well to back it up. it's easy. read horus rising for example (to remain in the heresy domain) and compare writing skills. hits you squarely. fine character and story development --> believable characters and story. excellent matching and contrasting of personalities. good side plots. whereas in a1ks the side stories just read as bad filling; just to gain pages. horus rising has an extremely good hyperbole, suspense and plot. a1ks just kinda hammers it. so no hyperbole. and the talks are really low grade. also i don't like the over exaggeration of the sons powers. so it just disappoints me, that there are so big skill differences. the thousand sons would have offered such nice possibilities. as said, my opinion.

and for the record (as asked by world eater) with my fav 40k authors:
- dan abnett (and hey, i don't like iron snakes :wink: )
- ian watson (got his inqusitor tales (awfull german translation) in the early 90's and they were quite captive. but the english originial was even much better)
- william king (cuz i enjoyed the space wolves novels. even though they tend a bit too much to the average 40k massacre side at some points)


----------



## Graf Spee

World Eater XII said:


> Fair point.
> 
> However hes comparing Mcneil to, who i think is THE most popular bl author, Dan abbnet.
> 
> Bit cheap in my opinion, cant really expect all writers to have same stlye or skill.


no, i don't expect this. would be idiotic. but still i wonder how this book would have turned out in more skilled hands. could have been a killer.

and by the way.. why not comparing da and mcn? they both write 40k. they will tell the two sides of the same tale. and i think they are friends (i might be mistaken here).


----------



## World Eater XII

True but DA is in his own league of writing with just him in it! 

Tbh i enjoyed inquisition wars up till the final book, v strange ending.

But i digress.


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## Brother Emund

*The wolves have it so far..*

I have personally found it quite hard to get into (so far). I think their tongue-twisting names might have something to do with it! :dunno:
I find myself warming to the wolves and turning from the Sons. However, I'm only up to the part where they have just SPOILER* met (and whipped) the 2 Eldar titans, and hopefully it will start getting better


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## deathbringer

I'm blinkered admittedly, my favourite legion, my favourite author, im going to worship this book.

McNeil, no narritive style, that's insulting.

The story is fluid, flowing easily except for one slight break in the return to prospero. The battle itself is vivid and the deaths of each of the main thousand sons graphic and tragic. 

I admit i'm a little sentimental but honestly Magnus ignoring their pleas for help, sacrificing himself for the will of the imperium brought tears to my eyes.

His turn of phrase has the ability to make me smile even when there is nothing to smile about, he is just so vivid, his charactors so real. Major problem was the quirks of thousand sons and the new names were too abrupt, he didnt explain them in just dropped them like bombs. So that is my only complaint.

Abnett is good fantastic in fact, but mcNeil has a descriptive ability even above his.


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## World Eater XII

All depends on the style you like really! i did really enjoy Mcneils descriptive skills in tsons though!


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## Anomagnus

I loved thousand sons. It has been the first book since Horus Rising, to really catch the tragedy of the Heresy. How so much of was built in misunderstanding, mistrust and confusion.

I had always known magnus to have been misunderstood, to but in reading Thousand Sons, i saw a man blinded (pardon the pun) by his self belief. The destruction of his world, and his ego was brilliantly handled.

I look forward to reading it from the wolves side, and i am curious now. To be honest, we've seen a lot of the plotting on the heretics side, and from the sounds it, there have been a bit of plotting on the side of the loyalists as well.


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## forkmaster

Anomagnus said:


> I loved thousand sons. It has been the first book since Horus Rising, to really catch the tragedy of the Heresy. How so much of was built in misunderstanding, mistrust and confusion.
> 
> I had always known magnus to have been misunderstood, to but in reading Thousand Sons, i saw a man blinded (pardon the pun) by his self belief. The destruction of his world, and his ego was brilliantly handled.
> 
> I look forward to reading it from the wolves side, and i am curious now. To be honest, we've seen a lot of the plotting on the heretics side, and from the sounds it, there have been a bit of plotting on the side of the loyalists as well.


On that point I have to disagree as Fulgrim was IMO much worse tragedy, with the 2nd place of Flight of the Eistensein. Then on a shared 3rd place we got 1KS and Galaxy in flames.


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## Anomagnus

forkmaster said:


> On that point I have to disagree as Fulgrim was IMO much worse tragedy, with the 2nd place of Flight of the Eistensein. Then on a shared 3rd place we got 1KS and Galaxy in flames.


For some reason i never took to fulgrim. Myabe he was too perfect for me. Though i still hold out hopes that if GW ever closed the story to the Imperium, its primarchs and chaos, that his soul could be saved.


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## Brother Emund

Is there another book that covers the parade on Ullanor? I was looking forward to being there with a hundred thousand marines, a million guard... and the Emperor. I Walked with Magnus through all the checkpoints, his idle chat with the Custodes, nearly got to the podium and BANG.. all over and we were away across the universe! What happened there?


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## donskar

Brother Emund said:


> Is there another book that covers the parade on Ullanor? I was looking forward to being there with a hundred thousand marines, a million guard... and the Emperor. I Walked with Magnus through all the checkpoints, his idle chat with the Custodes, nearly got to the podium and BANG.. all over and we were away across the universe! What happened there?



Excellent point. If the book were a movie we'd be criticizing the editing. Big buildup -- then nothing. Bathos.

Although I love the book, the author's habit of providing the background we need to understand a passage AFTER the passage takes place was frustrating a couple times. Example: I was totally lost for the first several pages, then caught on later. (Anyone read David Drake? He uses the same technique.)

Abnett's narrative technique is usually more linear (although there are often several lines to follow!)


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## World Eater XII

yeah well, the way movies murder books.....

I agree there but still was an interesting way of doin it!


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## mal310

2. What is the reference "There are no wolves on Fenris?" When I read it I thought it implied that there was something dark and deeper about the Wolves that perhaps would explain Dan Abnett's emphasis on the book trailer when he said that the Wolves were created to destroy another legion.



I took this to mean that the 'wolves' are actually Space Wolf Astartes that have undegone some kind of mutation (al a warewolf) due to unstable gene seed. Russ becomes very upset when a couple of these 'wolves' are killed outside the library. 

I may be wrong but thats how i read it.


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## Barnster

The wolf version of spawn, interesting theory, all we know is that magnus said that the wolves were a result of gene splicing not normal evolution. 

Ullanors dealt with in a tonne of HH books, its where Horus is made warmaster, Its much like "Fulgrim" skips Isstavaan II as its featured in GiF and FotE, Magnus was never the most pally with the other primarchs. We know what happened so no need to plow the ground again.

Thousand sons was my fav HH book yet, but they are my favourite legion so I'm blinkered.


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## Khorne's Fist

mal310 said:


> 2. What is the reference "There are no wolves on Fenris?" When I read it I thought it implied that there was something dark and deeper about the Wolves that perhaps would explain Dan Abnett's emphasis on the book trailer when he said that the Wolves were created to destroy another legion.


Magnus actually mentions it in the book that the so called wolves on Fenris have been gene spliced and cross bred so much so that they could survive on a death world like Fenris that they may look like wolves, but aren't really wolves on a genetic level. It even says it in the codex that thunder wolves have more in common with rhinos than with terran wolves.


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## Brother Emund

> *Barnster:* Ullanors dealt with in a tonne of HH books, its where Horus is made warmaster, Its much like "Fulgrim" skips Isstavaan II as its featured in GiF and FotE, Magnus was never the most pally with the other primarchs. We know what happened so no need to plow the ground again.


Please indulge me then... which books exactly, so I can _'plough' through them_? :scratchhead:


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## deathbringer

Istavaan, I'd go Galaxy in Flames, Fulgrim and Flight of the Einsteen.


Less the latter, but those are the ones that have pretty much all the details in.

However I dont know what the audiobooks contain, for example ravens flight, that might have some, you'd have to ask someone else on that note I'm afraid


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## World Eater XII

I never figured rhinos bein genetically happy with super cold :/


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## Baron Spikey

World Eater XII said:


> I never figured rhinos bein genetically happy with super cold :/


What mammal is? Wolves are certainly no more genetically happy with the cold than any other animal.

If for some reason in your ignorance you've got the habitat you're likely to find wolves and rhinos and how they've acclimatised to those conditions, and their DNA- Woolly Rhinos? Wolves that live in the Indian jungle? Different animals can/used to be found in numerous habitats.


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## Hurricane

After finishing this recently I found it to be quite a fun read. Of the four total HH books I've read (the first three and this one) it is probably my second favorite after Galaxy in Flames. My absolute favorite part has to be Ahriman's monologue at the very end about the Rubric. DAMN I got chills just reading that! It only ranks second to the final battle between the Mournival for me.


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## World Eater XII

@Baron, ok fair enough but dont throw the word ignorant at me, not cool.


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