# Primarchs hair colour, Magnus lost eye and other contradictions.



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Is there no unified bank of info that the BL authors can go to that categorically states information on the Primarchs for use in writing the HH. I ask because reading The First Heretic (no spoilers in the thread) I'm seeing more again, to name a few:

Lion El'Jonsons hair colour, what's it meant to be, i've now seen it decribed as blonde and black. Sanguinius is the same aswell.

But the one i'm most confused about is Magnus lost eye and when he lost it. I'm certain that in the older fluff he was a cyclops from birth, having only ever had the one eye. However in Thousand Sons it suggests he lost it later on in life in his efforts to cure his legions. Also im fairly certain in his first decription in the book it mentions that where his eye should have been was simply skin and that it looked as if it had always been like that. Yet in other decriptions it specifically mentions having a scar tissue over where it should be. 

Theres quite a few other ones knocking about which have been discussed already, Tarvitz being First Captain for instance.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> But the one i'm most confused about is Magnus lost eye and when he lost it. I'm certain that in the older fluff he was a cyclops from birth, having only ever had the one eye. However in Thousand Sons it suggests he lost it later on in life in his efforts to cure his legions. Also im fairly certain in his first decription in the book it mentions that where his eye should have been was simply skin and that it looked as if it had always been like that. Yet in other decriptions it specifically mentions having a scar tissue over where it should be.


The Magnus eye thing has changed so many times that I've given up on trying to keep track. The worst one I heard was some guy who insisted that Magnus was actually a triclops, with a third eye in the centre of his forehead like a navigator. Personally, I'm just going with what's most recent which is the one eye missing with a smooth surface where it would have been. Well, till BL changes it again.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I think The Lion was described as having blonde hair in Descent of Angels, not sure, Sangy is definitely blonde and so is Rogal Dorn.


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## Professor Pumpkin (Jun 25, 2010)

Maybe he has two hair colours. What's so absurd about the great defender's of the Imperium having two hair colours?


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Professor Pumpkin said:


> Maybe he has two hair colours. What's so absurd about the great defender's of the Imperium having two hair colours?


Other than how ridiculous it would probably look? I mean, this isn't some nutcase hair metal rocker from 80s we're talking about here. Or worse, after an intense battle he might end up looking like Beetlejuice.:shok:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I was under the impression dorn had white hair.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Yeah Dorn has white hair, or at least so far in the HH books he has.

I'm going to wait for the HH novel by James Swallow regarding the ambush of the Blood Angels in the Signus Cluster for a definitive decision on what colour Sanguinius' hair was- if he says it's blonde then fine, black? Also fine.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Sangunius in almost all artwork has been depicted with blonde hair, and lets be honest he should be, it just fits the Angel look that much more, hell the Blood Angels are typified by their blonde hair from him, yet in the HH books he's described as having black hair.

The Lion has been described as blonde in Fallen Angels, but black haired in The First Heretic, and i forget what he had in Descent of Angels. And on the note of two hair colours, it just doesn't seem likely really, don't know why, Primarchs just dont strike me as the kind of individuals(save Fulgrim perhaps) who would dye their hair a different colour


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## cragnes417 (Jul 22, 2010)

I mostly believe lion's a blond since that might be a typo or something.what bothers me the most is possibly what color hair russ has becouse i looked at some of his picture's and they describe him having red while in the prospero burns picture describe's him blond which one's right?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Isn't Russ shown to have both red and blonde hair?

Sneaky little git.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

ah ok, I really have a poor memory lol 

I always thought Lion El had Black hair and I seem to remember being surprised when it said he was blonde but who knows. I don't really get Dorn tho I seem to remember it saying in the Dark King that he was tanned but didn't he come from a snowy place? Vulkan is definitely black after what was said in The First Heretic. I think Konrad Curze is pale with black hair but I don't know anything about the other Primarchs, I always thought Russ was brown or Ginger.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Isn't Russ shown to have both red and blonde hair?
> 
> Sneaky little git.


Maybe he passed out in some Fenrisian ale and it stained some of his hair. Now, either he's too lazy to wash it or he just likes the smell.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> Sangunius in almost all artwork has been depicted with blonde hair, and lets be honest he should be, it just fits the Angel look that much more, hell the Blood Angels are typified by their blonde hair from him, yet in the HH books he's described as having black hair.
> 
> The Lion has been described as blonde in Fallen Angels, but black haired in The First Heretic, and i forget what he had in Descent of Angels. And on the note of two hair colours, it just doesn't seem likely really, don't know why, Primarchs just dont strike me as the kind of individuals(save Fulgrim perhaps) who would dye their hair a different colour





cragnes417 said:


> I mostly believe lion's a blond since that might be a typo or something.what bothers me the most is possibly what color hair russ has becouse i looked at some of his picture's and they describe him having red while in the prospero burns picture describe's him blond which one's right?


The only art I've seen of the Lion shows him with blonde hair.

Commander Dante has black hair and he's pretty much the most famous Blood Angel, I actually prefer the idea of Sanguinus having black hair- maybe show that he's not entirely angelic, he does have his dark, blood lusting side after all (like Antonio Banderas' character in _Interview with a Vampire_).


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## Bloody Mary (Nov 6, 2009)

I actually like the idea of some Primarchs using hair dye. Why should they have the same associations with dying ones hair as we do?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Why would they even care?


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## Bloody Mary (Nov 6, 2009)

Curiosity?


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

As Bloody Mary suggests, hair dye isn't out of the question. We know that a number of the Primarchs use make-up and skin dyes to enhance their appearance. These could be Imerial fashions (and many bosses like to keep abreast of fashions to some extent, to show how 'current' they are), cultural hangovers from the worlds on which the Primarch grew up, or just simple vanity (especially for Fulgrim, even more especially after the business on the Laeren homeworld). For one of these chaps to change his hair colour, well, I wouldn't be at all surprised by this. I certainly wouldn't let it spoil my appreciation of the story.
Besides, there is the suggestion that the Primarchs, much like their father, can change how they look (sometimes they appear like giants, other times they are just a bit bigger then Astartes). It wouldn't surprise me at all if there was a corollary to this and that the mood of the viewer affected how they saw the Primarch, so anger and fear would let you see a fierce and scary Primarch; peace and awe would show a gentler, softer Primarch who probably fits more with what your conception of beauty is. Although I could just be typing put of my arse...

GFP


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Maybe sang or Fulgrim, but Russ wouldn't even consider it, Dorn would think it was impractical, and I don't even think Jonson would understand the question.


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## Bloody Mary (Nov 6, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Maybe sang or Fulgrim, but Russ wouldn't even consider it, Dorn would think it was impractical, and I don't even think Jonson would understand the question.


I don't agree. You're assuming they'd all see it as something related purely to aesthetics, which does not have to be the case. Also, Russ would die hie hair if somebody challenged him to do it.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> Maybe sang or Fulgrim, but Russ wouldn't even consider it, Dorn would think it was impractical, and I don't even think Jonson would understand the question.





Bloody Mary said:


> I don't agree. You're assuming they'd all see it as something related purely to aesthetics, which does not have to be the case. Also, Russ would die hie hair if somebody challenged him to do it.


Russ tries to be seen as a savage, as has been pointed out before, anything cosmetic that could enhance that would be seized on and utilised.
Similar reasoning for the Lion, he was ultimately a pragmatist, if he saw advantage in it then he'd do it.

Sangunius was obviously one for appreciating the aesthetic- he had silver wire and pearls threaded through his wings for goodness sakes, I can't imagine him *not* using cosmetics of some sort.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Russ tries to be seen as a savage, as has been pointed out before, anything cosmetic that could enhance that would be seized on and utilised.


I don't know about you, but I have never seen a dude and thought "Oh, his hair looks scary."



Baron Spikey said:


> reasoning for the Lion, he was ultimately a pragmatist, if he saw advantage in it then he'd do it.


The Lion read people like I read a neurophysics text; he doesn't really read people well. I doubt he would see any advantage in it.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> I don't know about you, but I have never seen a dude and thought "Oh, his hair looks scary."


But he might have purposely treated his hair in order to cultivate the savage barbarian look we know of.



gen.ahab said:


> The Lion read people like I read a neurophysics text; he doesn't really read people well. I doubt he would see any advantage in it.


He might not have been able to read individuals but cultures were likely another story, he wouldn't have been one of the greatest generals amongst the Primarchs if he allowed such important information to remain outside his grasp.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> But he might have purposely treated his hair in order to cultivate the savage barbarian look we know of.


I doubt it, the style the hair is worn has a greater effect on that than the color. I really don't see him dying his hair.



Baron Spikey said:


> might not have been able to read individuals but cultures were likely another story, he wouldn't have been one of the greatest generals amongst the Primarchs if he allowed such important information to remain outside his grasp.


True, but I doubt hair color would effect much.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Well someone has already pointed out that Sanguinus having blonde hair would make him seem more angelic, I bet there are all sorts of psychological studies regarding people's perceptions of hair colour.

And that would obviously alter with each culture so maybe the hue of the Primarch's hair would be altered to best take advantage of which ever psychological effect he was intending to inspire.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

According to them. I really don't see any reason an angel wouldn't have dark hair since the archangel Michael had curly brown hair. Of course, that is just my perception and does not reflect the typical outlook on the subject and is ultimately useless, but whatever.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Really? I think the image of Sanguinius with golden/blonde hair, fits the angelic, good and general loyalist image much better than black hair. The vast majority of 'good' angels in fiction are depicted with blonde or fair hair


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I have just never associated moral purity with hair color, but, again, thats just me.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I can't see a group of people as intelligent as the Primarchs not being ready to take advantage of physical appearance. Just look at today's 'stars'; how many of them have plastic surgery from an early age, change fashions like we breathe and basically use their look (and looks) as a tool to get ahead? All of them, some are just more subtle about it than others.
Why would people do this and go through so much hassle if it didn't bring an advantage? How someone looks goes a long way to making those who see them think in a certain way, even before we hear them speak or see them act. Someone who looks 'beautiful' will be given a hell of a lot more leeway than someone who is 'ugly'. So Sanguinius will be allowed to act more freely, but Russ, with his barbarian look, will be allowed to act more barbarian-y before anyone says anything or expects any different.
Looks are a huge part of psychology and the Primarchs are clever enough to use this to their advantage.

GFP


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I can't see the primarchs requiring it. They were created to by the quintessence of their particular aspect. Russ was unrelenting fury, Angron was rage incarnate, Sang was all that was good in the emperor; it seems to me that they were created to be snap shots of the emperors different aspects and, as such, would have already been made as they needed to be. Also, I don't see any particular advantage in the color of ones hair. It means nothing, it is like the old blonde jokes; if a girl is blonde she isn't dumb simply because her hair is that color. It means nothing.


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## Bloody Mary (Nov 6, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> I can't see the primarchs requiring it. They were created to by the quintessence of their particular aspect. Russ was unrelenting fury, Angron was rage incarnate, Sang was all that was good in the emperor; it seems to me that they were created to be snap shots of the emperors different aspects and, as such, would have already been made as they needed to be. Also, I don't see any particular advantage in the color of ones hair. It means nothing, it is like the old blonde jokes; if a girl is blonde she isn't dumb simply because her hair is that color. It means nothing.


Let me give you an example: in Medieval Germany prostitutes were required to die their hair red. That did not mean that a redhead was a prostitute, but most natural redheads probably did die or hide their hair, nevertheless. 

Essentially, a hair colour, just like clothes, face paint, etc. might denote something in a different culture. Dying one's hair might be a sign of grief, of a particular profession, social status, etc. If a particular hair colour has a strong meaning in a given culture, do you really think a Primarch like Lion would not die his hair, if only to simply avoid misunderstandings?

As for Russ: he might have died his hair to avoid association with Magnus (if he was a natural redhead) or Lion (if he was a natural blonde).


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Be liked the lion, wouldn't have changed his hair color for that reason.


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## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

My _personnel _opinions, are that Sanguinius’ black hair is a sign of mourning. Black tends to be a more morbid colour, traditionally worn at sadder events, such as funerals. It could explain why it was black at Murder, and as for Nikaea, perhaps his precognition had already shown him the outcome?


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Chompy Bits said:


> Personally, I'm just going with what's most recent which is the one eye missing with a smooth surface where it would have been. Well, till BL changes it again.


Actually the most recent fluff is in _The First Heretic_, which describes Magnus as having a puckered scar where his eye used to be.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Actually the most recent fluff is in _The First Heretic_, which describes Magnus as having a puckered scar where his eye used to be.


My bad, haven't read _The First Heretic_ yet. But like I said, it keeps changing so next time he appears it will probably be different again.


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## Cambrius (Nov 4, 2010)

I'm kind of curious about why something as fundamental as the colours of Legion armour seems to be mutable. I seem to remember the Death Guard having two distinctly different armour descriptions between _Galaxy In Flames_ and _Flight of the Eistenstein_.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Cambrius said:


> I'm kind of curious about why something as fundamental as the colours of Legion armour seems to be mutable. I seem to remember the Death Guard having two distinctly different armour descriptions between _Galaxy In Flames_ and _Flight of the Eistenstein_.


They both had unpainted Ceramite in both didn't they?


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## Cambrius (Nov 4, 2010)

I would have to re-read them, it's been quite a few books since I read them, but I remember thinking it was odd. And I don't think it as the last time. The Sons of Horus colour scheme was inconsistently described as well, if I'm not mistaken.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Can't say i've ever noticed the armour colours changing. Luna Wolves white in the first book then pale green from then on


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Cambrius said:


> I would have to re-read them, it's been quite a few books since I read them, but I remember thinking it was odd. And I don't think it as the last time. The Sons of Horus colour scheme was inconsistently described as well, if I'm not mistaken.


There has been some inconsistencies with the Sons of Horus armour as well you are right. For the most part it is described as pale green, but in a few images in the _Collected Visions_ it is a dark silver colour, something which James Swallow threw a spanner in the works by supporting in _Nemesis_. Surely it isn't that hard to keep a consistent armour colour throughout the novels.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Ah i actually remember that in Nemesis now, completely forgot about it after i finished though. Was definetly a strange thing for him to do


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