# Chaos not chaotic?



## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

Does it strike anyone as odd how the chaos gods are completely predictable? Nurgle gives diseases, Khorne hits you with an axe, Slanesh corrupts you and Tzeench mutates you. They never do anything outside their pattern. Even chaos undivided doesn't switch between plans of the four gods it just fights for what they have in common. Are they just called chaos because they don't agree with the eldar or imperium on what 'order' is? (Eldar and the imperium being the ones who know them as 'chaos')


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

In one of Dan Abnett's novels there is a reference to "chaos" planets being not too dissimilar to Imperial ones


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

Chaos is not just about the four gods. Chaos is what happens if they win. Chaos is the warp. You might think they are predictable in their pattern, but they are chaotic inside this pattern. moreover they have no intelligible plan for mortals, bare one: to bring the warp realm into reality. then i guess we could learn the true meaning of chaos!!


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

I've always thought of it in relation to the Materium, which has laws of physics and consistent patters of how time and matter relate to each other... until a writer needs a new plot tool, of course. I consider the Necrons to be one of the ultimate avatars of 'law', in the Michael Moorcock sense of law and chaos, in that they're immutable and follow these strictures even when not in their own best interest... possibly driven by their absolute lack of connection to the warp.

The Warp (powers), on the other hand, bends and turns back on itself in both form and function, and time and space... being bent to the will of whatever being has the greatest power to do so.

Also, keep in mind that the concepts of law and chaos were not meant to be mutually exclusive, but more of the yin and yang, constantly blending into each other despite their opposition.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

In all honesty they are labelled as Choas because of the negative conotation that the term brings to the agents of "Choas." Choas is what they use to define the dangerous, unknown, mysterious, and deadly enemy that wishes death upon the Imperium and all of Mankind. Choas is what happens when evil takes iover and runs the show.....in essence.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

emporershand89 said:


> In all honesty they are labelled as Choas because of the negative conotation that the term brings to the agents of "Choas." Choas is what they use to define the dangerous, unknown, mysterious, and deadly enemy that wishes death upon the Imperium and all of Mankind. Choas is what happens when evil takes iover and runs the show.....in essence.


Normally I'm not one pointing out spelling mistakes, but it is VERY impressive how you have spelled Chaos wrong in every single instance in that post :grin:


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

Choas is stronger than your palsy "chaos"!! Convert now to choas!!!


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

neferhet said:


> Choas is stronger than your _paltry_ "chaos"!! Convert now to choas!!!


This....? :laugh:


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

This my friend, is pure Chaos! Or Choas...
Also, i was thinking about the OP...how comes that Tzeentch follows a pattern...or nurgle or khorne or slaanesh...they seek something peculiar but in a totally unpredictable way. There is nothing a slaaneshi would not do to reach a new peak of pleasure or self satisfaction. khorne follower will rampage everywhere, maiming and killing and inspiring terrible act of death, while nurgle will just spread wanton corruption and decay...tzeentch..let him alone, he is headache causing


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I would hazard a guess that the real reason chaos seems so ordered is the whole chaos thing was probably just a work around to include devil,satanism,and other worldly horror in the game without simply coping other games or preexisting trademarked pieces of fiction. Not to mention it probably gives them a certain level of separation from religious myths and icons. 

This is the most reasonable explanation I can think of why GW introduced something that is supposed to represent entropy and disorder in its most pure form and simply have it behave like every other slavering horde of devils.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

they do tend to cause a lot of chaos?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

The followers of Chaos are often not particularly chaotic that's true. They often start pretty chaotic though. Chaos cults come in a huge variety of forms, everything from death cults to student groups, with an equally huge variety in mandate. The only thing they all share is that they are revolutionary, they are opposed to and opposed by the current order of their environment. Cults start off random and eventually mature into something more structured (or die off). 


But there is a difference between Chaos and it's followers. Chaos isn't the Traitor Legions or the Lost and the Damned, it isn't even really the daemons. Chaos is the corrupting touch of the Gods, and while the end goal is always the same there are many paths that lead to that spot and many different starting points. People fall to Khrone through love of violence or through anger, a desire for revenge or power and through a miriad of other ways. Maybe they were a soldier who got a bit too caught up in the thrill of combat; maybe they were a policemen who got a bit too pissed with the scum he had to deal with daily; maybe they were just an office worker fed up with constantly being picked on by their boss. There's no real pattern there, no way of predicting who will be exposed or whether they'll turn. 

That's what truly makes Chaos chaotic, anyone at anytime is susceptible. Anyone, anywhere can turn. There are no front lines in the battle against Chaos, no armies drawn up to fight, no tactics, no safe ground and no final victories.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I think it is mostly termed Chaos because it is the anathema of everything mortals normally strive for as a society. Instead of laws, boundaries and protection, it offers the chance to break all limits and become completely free. Or at least live under the illusion of such.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> I think it is mostly termed Chaos because it is the anathema of everything mortals normally strive for as a society. Instead of laws, boundaries and protection, it offers the chance to break all limits and become completely free. Or at least live under the illusion of such.


You mearly trade a religious tyrant that will shoot you for a perceived slight for a religious madman that will shoot you for shits and giggles


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

locustgate said:


> You mearly trade a religious tyrant that will shoot you for a perceived slight for a religious madman that will shoot you for shits and giggles


or mutilate your body for shits and giggles, or sacrifice you to summon deamons for shits and giggles, ETC.
I think Chaos represents the anarchist side of humanity more then anything


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

I think there is a lot more to this discussion. 

First, Chaos as it is described in the warhammer universe is an absolute outgrowth of Michael Moorecock's Elric stories. The dukes of hell are clear templates for the chaos gods. Especially if you consider the process Elric goes through to sell his soul to Arioch and hire his sword stormbringer has ours own malign intelligence and feeds on the souls of its victims. Proto-type daemon sword anyone?

The chaos gods might seem orderly because they each represent a finite or constant concept, but they embody this essence completely. And there are two ways to think about ultimate chaos. Either it is conceived of as entropy, where everything is in a uniform state of disorder OR it can be thought of as the ongoing unpredictable turbulence created by motive powers with organizing principles interacting in inconsistent ways. 

Think of a pebble dropped in a pond and the rings it makes. Now think of a single outboard motor in the same pond creating splashes and choppy water. Now think of 4 motors in the pond all running at different speeds and constant changing direction. Sometimes they run together sometimes against one another. But the splashes and ripples from each one interact destructively with the ripples from one another.

That's more of how I think about chaos. The primal unreasoning motivation of the gods creates activity and motion, but it is always in flux. Sometimes they work together sometimes they work at cross purposes.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

I think that this discussion needs some help (although @Kreuger speaks like an Apostate Preacher. Have you fought on Vraks??)
Hereby I summon the Bringer of Light, the Magnificent, the Perfect! I SUMMON THEE, OH GREAT @Lux !!!!


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

locustgate said:


> You mearly trade a religious tyrant that will shoot you for a perceived slight for a religious madman that will shoot you for shits and giggles


Well true, currently Chaos represents the extremes of human impulse, in that there is near complete freedom, but no security like you would get by submitting to a society's laws. 

In a time before the four powers grew to be so influential, it is possible that these changes were not so extreme.


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

Chaos in general is normally Chaotic due to the lack of order.
So as a Space Marine Chapter you will normally have the best guys become leaders because they are brave, strong, tactical or whatever and they will excel in what they do and get respect from the lesser marines.
Chaos Marine Chapters can have the same deal but can also have the "I sucked up to god so he turned everyone who would have been better than me in to spawn as they got to cocky." or "This guy was clearly a better general and would have won us a load of battles and stuff, BUT I decided I wanted a turn at leading so I imbedded a force sword in his arse when he was in the shower and took over." or "We got tired of taking shit from this guy who was lording it over us, so 5-6 of us got together and killed him as a group then fought over who would replace him leaving just me and that guy."
But can also range on the random nature of the acts of the chaos gods. You are fighting a battle and suddenly a whale and a flower pot start falling out of the sky to the earth. No one knows why they are, they just are.
Or a Butterfly lands on a flower that has been touched by Chaos and becomes Mothra!

Sure the aspects of each of the gods are general straight forward, but they all have their own quirks and overlapping bits as well.
Tzeentch has been said (in liberchaotica) to be able to expand the eye of terror / realm of chaos at his own whim. He currently doesn't though because the most powerful god in the warp at the moment is Khorne... so in essence Khorne ends up winning when all the souls are divided out. But even when Tzeentch is the more powerful one he still doesn't do it. Why doesn't he... Because he is playing the REALLY long game where he like a gambler thinks he can take a small loss to make a huge gain.

Nurgle is known as the God of Decay and the God of Rot and Plague and all sorts of other ones. But he is also the God of Laugher and the Great Father who cares for his children. The Pox is said to be his gift to protect them against harm, and they enjoy picking at their scabs...

As said it is all a bit weird and the liber chaotica books were good reads when they came out probably about 10 years ago though heavily WFB based.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

mayegelt said:


> Chaos in general is normally Chaotic due to the lack of order.


Really? Was that necessary?

Otherwise, I agree with pretty much all your points. =)


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

I see it like this. Chaos is a mortal, material name on the powers of the inmatetium. The chaos gods are not chaotic in the words true meaning but their followers sow chaos cause it in turn generates the emotion that the gods feed upon. 

Everything the gods do is perfectly planed to create as much suffering, hate, pain, corruption as is possible. They even don't want a total chaos since it would destroy itself and the emotion influx would stop. The ultimately goal would be an equilibrium between order and chaos where no side is strong enough to victor over the other. Just an nedleds strife between the two.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Nordicus said:


> Normally I'm not one pointing out spelling mistakes, but it is VERY impressive how you have spelled Chaos wrong in every single instance in that post


Wow I just noticed that to my shame. I'm gonna have to do an Ice Run for this and dunk myself into the Charlestown River. I'm long due anyway.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

neferhet said:


> I think that this discussion needs some help (although @Kreuger speaks like an Apostate Preacher. Have you fought on Vraks??)
> Hereby I summon the Bringer of Light, the Magnificent, the Perfect! I SUMMON THEE, OH GREAT @Lux !!!!


Chaos along with order are nothing more than distorted illusions of the same concept, human belief along with existence's desire for control is what led to the perception of chaos and order. Chaos as well as Order are one and the same in that they are a fraction of that fundamental essence, the one which composes the flow of each instance of reality.

Humans often perceive chaos as that which has no true discernible pattern, no true causality or correlation to something they can truly "control". Furthermore, Chaos is often perceived as that which humans do not find desirable when in fact it might be entirely controllable. Chaos has shifted from being a state of being to that of a societal construct, it has become a genre in which the undesirable is allocate to.

What one may perceive as being chaotic during one period of time may in fact transition into being the epitome of order in another period of time, either due to technological advancements or a shift of philosophical paradigm as well as societal understanding. 

All is chaos as well as order simultaneously, and once you begin to understand you see that all is inherently "nothing". The only chaotic aspects of reality are those you desire to control but perceive that you currently do not, this then becomes chaos in that paradigm. The only aspects of order are those you have influenced yourself into believing that you have some form of control over, this then becomes order in that paradigm.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

Thanks. That was insipiring.


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## Nacho libre (Feb 23, 2013)

Woah this just got deep.


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## Keen4e (Apr 19, 2010)

The Chaos gods may follow some pattern, but I think to best understand Chaos, all you need to do is to look at the boon table in the 6th edition Chaos Codex. You have just as much chance of becoming a Daemon Prince as becoming a spawn.
That ultimately I think represents the moody nature of the Dark gods and pretty much why they are chaotic. They can promise you great things, but they can also turn you into a crazy possessed monster just for the shit and giggles.


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

Keen4e said:


> The Chaos gods may follow some pattern, but I think to best understand Chaos, all you need to do is to look at the boon table in the 6th edition Chaos Codex. You have just as much chance of becoming a Daemon Prince as becoming a spawn.
> That ultimately I think represents the moody nature of the Dark gods and pretty much why they are chaotic. They can promise you great things, but they can also turn you into a crazy possessed monster just for the shit and giggles.


Some of that is as you said punishing or rewarding their followers. Or just on a whim they change the fight to see how it goes.
Overcoming adversity for greater reward, or Khorne glances at a Tzeentch armies fight and throws a rock at them. Or their own god gets bored of watching the fight and glances away. So all that additional power from the focus of their god looking over them suddenly disappears and they end up stripped of that boost.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

I think of it like this. Yes chaos as a whole pretty crazy, but the gods are just different aspects of it. Take Khorne for example, he is represented as rage, murder, hatred, etc. Think of those adjectives as body parts that make up what Khorne is. His entire being is purely that, so he can't really conceive anything not in his nature. That's the chaos gods tend to fight with each other, including their extreme selfishness.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Of course Chaos is chaotic. Their behavior is just marked on the tin. They basically screws over everyone just because they can. They have always done so, its their nature.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Of course Chaos is chaotic. Their behavior is just marked on the tin. They basically screws over everyone just because they can. They have always done so, its their nature.


And yet they follow a linear path.

Khorne encourages bloodshed.

Tzeentech scheming.

Slaneesh excess.

Nurgle despair.

If they were truly chaotic, they would have no followers due to switching philosophies on a whim and it would make for a shitty story.

But I would like to see them revert back more to their description as being 'fickle' beings.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Malus Darkblade said:


> And yet they follow a linear path.


Says who? You? And you seem to not have a proper command about the word fickle even.

If you worship Khorne, sure he wants bloodshed but he doesn't care which blood is shed. How is that not chaotic?

If you worship Slaanesh you will experience sensations through random mutations for nod good reasons just to please the Prince of Pleasure. How is that not chaotic?

Tzeencth (likely spelled wrong). Well he is the god of backstabbing and in fluff is even stated to be the only one of the Chaos gods that at occasion work with the IOM at his own accord. How is this not chaotic?

Nurgle. Well to worship him according to fluff you must randomly contract a very nasty disease. According to fluff worship of him doesn't happen until you are in deep throws of that disease. And yet this somehow appears orderly to you?

Ehm from this I think you need to do some major research about fluff or stop confusing your own opinions for fluff. Sorry if I sound arrogant.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Says who? You? And you seem to not have a proper command about the word fickle even.
> 
> If you worship Khorne, sure he wants bloodshed but he doesn't care which blood is shed. How is that not chaotic?
> 
> ...


Welcome back Warlock in Training.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Welcome back Warlock in Training.


You would do well not being so arrogant.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

How about a little less chest thumping from both of you guys. Thanks


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

scscofield said:


> How about a little less chest thumping from *both *of you guys. Thanks


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