# Pandorax and Trials of Azrael by CZ Dunn



## Lord of the Night

A surprise release on the BL website.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/pandorax.html

http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/trials-of-azrael.html

I will be getting this, as unlike _Damnos_ and _Armageddon_ it contains 100% new content.


LotN


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## Chaplain-Grimaldus

Ooooooooo thanks! Been looking for an excuse to stop reading the drivel that is Ahriman Exile.


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## Phoebus

FYI, the eBook and MP3 versions are available *now*.


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## Lord of the Night

Phoebus said:


> FYI, the eBook and MP3 versions are available *now*.


The smilie says you'll be getting the ebook version, so I look forward to hearing what your thoughts are on it.


LotN


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## Khyzer

Are the apocalypse novels actual novels? or are they like the codex's with bunches of pages of lore but also pages of rules. At first glance I thought this book was a setup for a table top game.


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## Lord of the Night

Khyzer said:


> Are the apocalypse novels actual novels? or are they like the codex's with bunches of pages of lore but also pages of rules. At first glance I thought this book was a setup for a table top game.


The video on the Pandorax page explains it. There are three products. The first is what you just described, the Apocalypse Warzone book based on Pandorax for the game. The second is what I posted here and is a novelization based around that battle by Christian Dunn, similar to the SMB books. And the third is an audio containing a side story to the main one, about Azrael fighting Kharn.


LotN


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## Khyzer

I blame having just woken up for my failure to do the basic research lol. Thanks for the clarification, $30 seems a bit more reasonable now, especially if it means watching the entire Dark Angels chapter going to war.


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## Brother Lucian

Huh, interesting. Did not realize it was 'available' now. Despite the advert on the page saying that you could preorder it. Just DLed my copy.


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## Brother Lucian

2/3rds through Pandorax. A pretty interesting read so far.
A few teasing bits.


Kaldor Draigo is a prominent person in the book, the story is tangentially related to Dark Vengeance through the Hellfire Stone. An ancient athame cutting holes in reality plays a big role. And finally more hints about the origin of the Grey Knights from an eye-witness.


Edit:
Finished it, a very good read with some terrific lore suprises and a very grimdark true conclusion.


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## csw

Brother Lucian said:


> 2/3rds through Pandorax. A pretty interesting read so far.
> A few teasing bits.
> 
> 
> Kaldor Draigo is a prominent person in the book, the story is tangentially related to Dark Vengeance through the Hellfire Stone. An ancient athame cutting holes in reality plays a big role. And finally more hints about the origin of the Grey Knights from an eye-witness.
> 
> 
> Edit:
> Finished it, a very good read with some terrific lore suprises and a very grimdark true conclusion.


Spoilers please?


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## Phoebus

Lord of the Night said:


> The smilie says you'll be getting the ebook version, so I look forward to hearing what your thoughts are on it.
> 
> 
> LotN


I think I'm going to do a spoiler-tagged play-by-play starting today.


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## Brother Lucian

csw said:


> Spoilers please?


I posted some in the fluff forum.


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## kickboxerdog

im looking forward to 
*Trials of Azrael*

like the sound of the audio as im a big fan of the DA and kharn the betrayer, when that out?


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## Lord of the Night

kickboxerdog said:


> Like the sound of the audio, as I am a big fan of the DA and Kharn the Betrayer, when is that out?


Copies of these two will start shipping out Nov 2nd.


LotN


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## aaronspuler

Anyone have a link to the original artwork (sans the red circle) for Trials of Azrael? Or willing to do some photoshop trickery to get rid of it?


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## Malus Darkblade

Things I dislike so far





1) Plague Marines die from regular humans. Some Catachans, who have never seen a Space Marine before but know where the weak spots of Astartes armor is thanks to the _Infantry's Uplifting Primer_, stab one in the neck and kill him. How regular humans can sneak up on a Space Marine is something I just can't comprehend. They have their augmented senses amplified 100 fold by their helms and regular humans somehow manage to sneak up on one, even using fucking bird calls to alert one another to the Marine's presence and the Marine could not determine that a human made the sounds. It shouldn't matter if the humans were jungle warfare experts. 

2) Three more Plague Marines die when they stumble upon the first one's corpse which was stuffed with explosions and they comically find themselves launched through the air, past the trees and into an open field, knocking down some Plague Marines just standing guard. How the Catachans managed to not get infected by the Plague Marine's blood/corpse/being next to it is something else entirely.

3) Stasis fields apparently are not immune to the ravages of the outside world. One of the traitor Inquisitors recieves a vial from the lead Plague Marine that is filled with the Life-Eater virus (why a Plague Marine of all the traitor legions would resort to using human-made viruses as opposed to ones made by Nurgle is just....no comment) which shatters and bypasses a stasis field housing a bunch of psykers, contaminating them. So basically, Guilliman could theoretically be healing since stasis field technology apparently is not that effective. The traitor Inquisitor says gases (and liquids IIRC) can bypass stasis fields in general, not just in the book. El o El

4) There is a Grey Knight who just chills in an alcove for approximately 10,000 years and when he wakes up and realizes this, what he says is the equivalent of a 'oh ok' shrug.

5) Droplets of the Life Eater viruses apparently takes a while before completely killing its victims as opposed to previous lore.


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## piemelke

that indeed does not sound great, 
for point (2), if a squad of BA can get killed standing together because the tesla coil of their plasma gun get hit by a cunning NL, I do not see the problem,
especially (4) seems strange, could you elaborate on this ?
(3) indeed seems very very strange, I know finally understand why the Navier stokes equations are invariant for time transformations


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## Loli

I'll still be getting it, because it's entirely new, sounds epic in its scale. So I'll be reading it, just wait until I pick it up.


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## Lord of the Night

Malus Darkblade said:


> Things I dislike so far
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1) Plague Marines die from regular humans. Some Catachans, who have never seen a Space Marine before but know where the weak spots of Astartes armor is thanks to the _Infantry's Uplifting Primer_, stab one in the neck and kill him. How regular humans can sneak up on a Space Marine is something I just can't comprehend. They have their augmented senses amplified 100 fold by their helms and regular humans somehow manage to sneak up on one, even using fucking bird calls to alert one another to the Marine's presence and the Marine could not determine that a human made the sounds. It shouldn't matter if the humans were jungle warfare experts.
> 
> 2) Three more Plague Marines die when they stumble upon the first one's corpse which was stuffed with explosions and they comically find themselves launched through the air, past the trees and into an open field, knocking down some Plague Marines just standing guard. How the Catachans managed to not get infected by the Plague Marine's blood/corpse/being next to it is something else entirely.
> 
> 3) Stasis fields apparently are not immune to the ravages of the outside world. One of the traitor Inquisitors recieves a vial from the lead Plague Marine that is filled with the Life-Eater virus (why a Plague Marine of all the traitor legions would resort to using human-made viruses as opposed to ones made by Nurgle is just....no comment) which shatters and bypasses a stasis field housing a bunch of psykers, contaminating them. So basically, Guilliman could theoretically be healing since stasis field technology apparently is not that effective. The traitor Inquisitor says gases (and liquids IIRC) can bypass stasis fields in general, not just in the book. El o El
> 
> 4) There is a Grey Knight who just chills in an alcove for approximately 10,000 years and when he wakes up and realizes this, what he says is the equivalent of a 'oh ok' shrug.
> 
> 5) Droplets of the Life Eater viruses apparently takes a while before completely killing its victims as opposed to previous lore.


Ok my rebuttal,




1.) Because they've been told where the weak spots are, and Plague Marines are notoriously slow so they wouldn't be able to react as well to a shock-sneak attack like a regular Astartes would. And the Catachans focused on one, an entire squad bringing down one Astartes with lightning fast attacks leaving him no time to respond. Space Marines are powerful but even they can be brought down, just about technique. And how do you know he didn't realise the humans were there, he may just not have been able to react in time. And yes the Catachan Jungle Fighters are great at fighting in jungles, I can see how that might be strange but that is how it is.

2. No one Plague marine died from that trap. The other two were killed in a cross-fire of heavy bolters and Jokaero enhanced lasguns. And again it was a surprise attack that they did repel and would have won had the Catachans stuck around, but they wisely did not.

3. Who says Nurgle didn't invent the Life-Eater and then whisper how to make it to some Imperial in his dreams?? Chaos is more than happy to use the Imperials stuff, they steal their tanks, men, souls and guns constantly. If you have a good idea, Chaos is more than happy to corrupt it. And as to the stasis field that sounds right, a stasis field keeps thing from aging and decaying but it wouldn't be able to protect them from outside trauma. If someone walked up to Guilliman and cut off his head, he's a dead man stasis field or no stasis field. And a virus is an outside source, a stasis field wouldn't be able to stop a virus, let alone the freaking Life-Eater.

4. No comment yet, I need to read the whole book.

5. So the hell what?? Maybe the virus decayed a little in storage, maybe it was a watered down version, or maybe it was just made on a second rate Forge World and wasn't as powerful to begin with.




LotN


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## Brother Lucian

There was a short story where a tech priest was visitted by visions that led him to create a new version of the life eater virus, which a space marine team used to perform exterminatus with. It turned out to work all too well, turning the errant planet in question to a world filled with plague zombies.


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## Malus Darkblade

That wasn't really a rebuttal LoTn more like an acceptance of new _lore_.

Plague Marines are slower than other Astartes but not humans.

In Asaheim, a Plague Marine keeps up easily with an enraged Space Wolf, arguably one of the fastest of the legions.

Stasis fields are immune to external trauma. The text we're talking about even mentions it:





The cultist pulled the trigger and the bullet sped inexorably towards the dome of blue energy. It hit the stasis field and bounced off, ricocheting crazily off the walls of the cavern, given new impetus by its deflection.
‘The field doesn’t just keep them alive, you fool. It protects them too. Killing them is going to take–


What the traitor Inquisitor says regarding stasis fields 



It’s an airborne pathogen which makes it excellent at breaching stasis fields. Unfortunately, those psyker slaves in there don’t have their own air supply which means the protective dome, while sufficient to prevent solid objects from passing in and out, is porous enough to allow gas and liquids through.’ She emphasised this point by spitting through the field, a wad of phlegm landing on the hem of an oblivious psyker’s robes. She shook her pistol at the Space Marine. ‘Even he can’t save you now'


lewl


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## Lord of the Night

Malus Darkblade said:


> That wasn't really a rebuttal LoTn more like an acceptance of new _lore_.
> 
> Plague Marines are slower than other Astartes but not humans.
> 
> In Asaheim, a Plague Marine keeps up easily with an enraged Space Wolf, arguably one of the fastest of the legions.


Fine whatever it is. I can understand not liking the Plague marine scenes but I don't see why you dislike the stasis field parts. They make sense, the book even gives an explanation.

Interpretation, it's all down to interpretation. I like what Dunn has chosen to do here, the Astartes are dangerous but can be brought down with tactics, skill and luck. Others prefer it when no mortal can kill an Astartes but that is their choice, I like it when a skilled mortal brings down an Astartes because it makes for awesome scenes and because the authors usually put a lot of thought into it and make the fights more elaborate than simply two guys hacking at each other.



Malus Darkblade said:


> What the traitor Inquisitor says regarding stasis fields
> 
> 
> 
> It’s an airborne pathogen which makes it excellent at breaching stasis fields. Unfortunately, those psyker slaves in there don’t have their own air supply which means the protective dome, while sufficient to prevent solid objects from passing in and out, is porous enough to allow gas and liquids through.’ She emphasised this point by spitting through the field, a wad of phlegm landing on the hem of an oblivious psyker’s robes. She shook her pistol at the Space Marine. ‘Even he can’t save you now'
> 
> 
> lewl


I don't get your problem with this. It makes sense considering the standard of Imperial technology and the likely degrading of the field over 10k years.


LotN


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## Malus Darkblade

Please see my edits regarding the stasis field bit


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## Lord of the Night

Malus Darkblade said:


> Please see my edits regarding the stasis field bit


I have. I do not understand your issue with it.


LotN


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## forkmaster

It feels like for me that these novels are all over the place!


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## Lord of the Night

http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/11/black-library-review-apocalypse.html

http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/11/black-library-review-apocalypse-trials.html

I review both _Pandorax_ and _Trials of Azrael_. In short both were great fun and I look forward to not only more of CZ Dunn's work but more of the Apocalypse series in general.


LotN


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## aaronspuler

aaronspuler said:


> Anyone have a link to the original artwork (sans the red circle) for Trials of Azrael? Or willing to do some photoshop trickery to get rid of it?


My attempt:


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## ckcrawford

I'm not surprised at the ability of the Imperial Guard to do what they did. How they did it is kind of sketchy, however the availability of anti-armor weapons in the Imperial Guard arsenal along with their vast numbers I'm surprised novels haven't focussed on that. I've read too many events where Imperial Guard are trying to bring down Traitor Astartes with lasguns. There comes a point where you wonder if the commanders don't understand its not working. Of course one can always claim they use their heavy weaponry against the mass amounts of cultists. But even thats kind of sketchy.


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## piemelke

I hope Abaddon his prisoner gets freed and put in a GK librarian dreadnought deployed in the 13th crusade and take on Abaddon himself,


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## Lord of the Night

aaronspuler said:


> Anyone have a link to the original artwork (sans the red circle) for Trials of Azrael? Or willing to do some photoshop trickery to get rid of it?


Here you go;











LotN


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## aaronspuler

Thanks, saw that in the MP3 download package. That's the image I used to make the one I uploaded.

Just wanted something for my MP3 library that didn't stick out with the red badge.


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## Doelago

It was a somewhat OK read, but nothing spectacular. There were plenty of big lore revelations that somewhat make it worth reading, but the writing is rather meh and the book is so inconsistent with both itself and established lore that it detracts from the enjoyment.


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## MontytheMighty

piemelke said:


> if a squad of BA can get killed standing together because the tesla coil of their plasma gun get hit by a cunning NL, I do not see the problem


Indeed...that was a humiliating moment for the BA...but y'know, Night Lords are just kewl like that


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## PlayingWithHammers

Lord of the Night said:


> Ok my rebuttal,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3. Who says Nurgle didn't invent the Life-Eater and then whisper how to make it to some Imperial in his dreams?? Chaos is more than happy to use the Imperials stuff, they steal their tanks, men, souls and guns constantly. If you have a good idea, Chaos is more than happy to corrupt it. And as to the stasis field that sounds right, a stasis field keeps thing from aging and decaying but it wouldn't be able to protect them from outside trauma. If someone walked up to Guilliman and cut off his head, he's a dead man stasis field or no stasis field. And a virus is an outside source, a stasis field wouldn't be able to stop a virus, let alone the freaking Life-Eater.






Got to disagree with this one. Statis fields in other science fiction and previous 40k fluff can stop anything for as long as they are active. Nothing will penetrate in or out of a stasis field, be it gases, physical molecules, all forms of energy and radiation, anything. You can't cut off Guillimans head because a blade couldn't move within a stasis field. 

Hence a timed stasis field being used by the Iron Hand and Raven to survive being in the epicentre of a nuclear fusion explosion in Kryptos.

Dunn got that very very wrong.


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## Lord of the Night

PlayingWithHammers said:


> Got to disagree with this one. Statis fields in other science fiction and previous 40k fluff can stop anything for as long as they are active. Nothing will penetrate in or out of a stasis field, be it gases, physical molecules, all forms of energy and radiation, anything. You can't cut off Guillimans head because a blade couldn't move within a stasis field.
> 
> Hence a timed stasis field being used by the Iron Hand and Raven to survive being in the epicentre of a nuclear fusion explosion in Kryptos.
> 
> Dunn got that very very wrong.


So once stasis field is the same as another? I don't think so. 40k mass produces a lot of stuff but something like a stasis field is not going to be easy to create, and remember this one was ten thousand years old and had not been maintained since the Heresy. Likely it had degraded in that time and didn't function at full capacity.

And I don't give a damn what other sci-fis say about it. Star Wars, Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica and all the rest can go on about whatever; what matters in 40k is what 40k says and does.


LotN


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## Brother Lucian

I agree, the stasis field had likely degraded to become a zone of slowed time, than outright frozen. Hence the old and decrepit psykers inside it.


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## PlayingWithHammers

A stasis field either works, trapping its contents within an unchanging moment in time or it doesn't. An energy field that's a permeable barrier and allows entry of molecules, radiation and energy isn't a stasis field. It might be a form of sus-an, but it's not a stasis field. 

If GW want to redefine what a stasis field is they can, but its like saying gravity in the 40k world is actually water pressure, not an attracting force. None of the other authors seem to want to redefine basic terms.


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## Lord of the Night

PlayingWithHammers said:


> A stasis field either works, trapping its contents within an unchanging moment in time or it doesn't. An energy field that's a permeable barrier and allows entry of molecules, radiation and energy isn't a stasis field. It might be a form of sus-an, but it's not a stasis field.
> 
> If GW want to redefine what a stasis field is they can, but its like saying gravity in the 40k world is actually water pressure, not an attracting force. None of the other authors seem to want to redefine basic terms.


So machines don't degrade over time?? A machine that is in constant operation over 10,000 years would not degrade and would require no maintenance to continue working at full function?? Likely it stopped ceasing the flow of time entirely and instead slowed it to a crawl, seconds passing every century and the like.

That argument is facaetious. 40k is a universe where ancient gods born of our emotions scheme to destroy us all, as do green skinned fungus people and space elves, oh and robots that have souls. I'm not going to debate it's sense of physics with you.


LotN


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## PlayingWithHammers

Yeah but the cultist doesn't hold up the vial of life-eater virus and say I've noticed this is an old defective machine and as a result it has a permeable field and doesn't actually stop time but slows it down, Dunn implies all stasis fields are permeable, which is completely at odds with all other descriptions of stasis fields in other 40k fluff. 

Bad editing that's all.

The rest of the novel is excellent.


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## Lord of the Night

PlayingWithHammers said:


> Yeah but the cultist doesn't hold up the vial of life-eater virus and say I've noticed this is an old defective machine and as a result it has a permeable field and doesn't actually stop time but slows it down, Dunn implies all stasis fields are permeable, which is completely at odds with all other descriptions of stasis fields in other 40k fluff.


I can only think of one other description and that's the machine Guilliman is in. And exactly how that works and functions, in full detail, has never been described to the best of my knowledge. As far as I see, what Dunn has written syncs up fine, and even if it is at odds with that one other description, who cares. Just because one writer says a piece of esoteric 40k technology works that way doesn't mean it's true universally, other Forge Worlds may build it a different way or not have access to as good schematics.


LotN


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## PlayingWithHammers

Lord of the Night said:


> I can only think of one other description and that's the machine Guilliman is in. And exactly how that works and functions, in full detail, has never been described to the best of my knowledge. As far as I see, what Dunn has written syncs up fine, and even if it is at odds with that one other description, who cares. Just because one writer says a piece of esoteric 40k technology works that way doesn't mean it's true universally, other Forge Worlds may build it a different way or not have access to as good schematics.
> 
> 
> LotN


The field around Guilliman freezes time even as far as to suspend drops of his blood in midair. (from one of the Ultramarine novels iirc)

Off the top of my head I know three other uses of stasis fields.

Draco and his team hide in stasis casks to infiltrate the Imperial Palace, and then use them to wait out 100 years in the outer reaches of the solar system. Draco recommends their use in torture to hold out a moment indefinitely.

In Kryptos, Wayland and Sharrowkyn activate a stasis field in order to survive being at the centre of a nuclear explosion. If the energy, light and heat from a nuclear explosion can't penetrate the field I'm not sure how air currents can push a virus through it. 

Eversor Assassins are also held in stasis casks.

To quote the Lexicanum "Because the contents of a stasis field are divorced from the normal passage of time, it is effectively impossible to alter the conditions of the inside of the field in any way. This makes whatever is caught in the area of effect almost completely frozen and unable to be harmed."


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## Malus Darkblade

"Just because one writer says a piece of esoteric 40k technology works that way doesn't mean it's true universally, other Forge Worlds may build it a different way or not have access to as good schematics."

So basically all established lore is subject to change based on the whims of future authors.

LoTn. There are certain writers whose _contributions _they've made to WH40k's lore is just garbage. You need to accept that fact of life rather than agree every single time established lore gets massacred. The bigger question is why GW/BL/editors let them get away with it.


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## kwak76

Reading the book now. It's decent but it does raises question about traditional lore. Who knows why they did it?


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## Lord of the Night

PlayingWithHammers said:


> The field around Guilliman freezes time even as far as to suspend drops of his blood in midair. (from one of the Ultramarine novels iirc)
> 
> Off the top of my head I know three other uses of stasis fields.
> 
> Draco and his team hide in stasis casks to infiltrate the Imperial Palace, and then use them to wait out 100 years in the outer reaches of the solar system. Draco recommends their use in torture to hold out a moment indefinitely.
> 
> In Kryptos, Wayland and Sharrowkyn activate a stasis field in order to survive being at the centre of a nuclear explosion. If the energy, light and heat from a nuclear explosion can't penetrate the field I'm not sure how air currents can push a virus through it.
> 
> Eversor Assassins are also held in stasis casks.


Draco? Your using a Heretic Tome, a novel that GW and BL admit is no longer capable of fully fitting into the current 40k lore? As I recall the Jaq Draco novels also had Squats in them and a Callidus Assassin that could become a Genestealer. Oh and tiny spy-flies that imo belong in James Bond rather than 40k.

Again a new stasis field that had been maintained. *I am not saying all stasis fields would work the way the Damnation Cache's did, just that in that one particular case the field was damaged and not working at full capacity. Hence, why it blocked solids like a bullet but not liquids and gases.*

A stasis cask is an actual coffin with a stasis field built in, very different thing. Of course a bullet or virus wouldn't get through that because the coffin would be what prevents it, the field is just to keep the Eversor in check.



Malus Darkblade said:


> "Just because one writer says a piece of esoteric 40k technology works that way doesn't mean it's true universally, other Forge Worlds may build it a different way or not have access to as good schematics."
> 
> So basically all established lore is subject to change based on the whims of future authors.
> 
> LoTn. There are certain writers whose _contributions _they've made to WH40k's lore is just garbage. You need to accept that fact of life rather than agree every single time established lore gets massacred. The bigger question is why GW/BL/editors let them get away with it.


No Malus. Your simply ignoring part of my words there to make that point. I said that one piece of esoteric 40k tech, like a stasis field, does not have set down workings for every situation the same way a boltgun or a lasgun does. We know that Forge Worlds often operate using different methods and have different technologies. Look at the Leman Russ Vanquisher;

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Leman_Russ_Vanquisher#.Un35I-LYeQo

A tank whose production was limited to certain Forge Worlds, which Orks overran. Then two other Forge Worlds tried to rebuild the schematics by their own efforts, hard and with lots of trial and error I would think since most Tech-Priests have less understanding of the inner workings of machinery than Ork Mekboys do. Technology in 40k is not clear cut and factory press in some cases, in some cases like the lasgun it mostly is, but with stuff like stasis fields, really rare stuff that Forge Worlds would only build in certain cases, some Forge Worlds are going to build it slightly differently, maybe because their schematics aren't complete or they aren't as good as the original, or because the Tech-Priests don't understand part of it anymore, or simply because they can't build it as well as the original Tech-Priests could.

That is how 40k works. Some things are ironclad but a lot of it is up to interpretation because 40k is a vast universe, each sector is basically a different world and just because something is done in one sector doesn't mean it's true in another. Look at Guy Haley's Baneblade, he creates a substance called Iorelei that he claims is used to create the Psychic Hoods of the Librarians and other psykers, and to create the Emperor's Tarot. Have you ever heard of that before?? No, because it didn't exist. But it doesn't mess with the overall lore because it's just one area in 40k, maybe they do use this stuff here, and maybe they use a different material elsewhere, where this Iorelei doesn't grow. Again, yes some things in 40k are ironclad and we know how they work, but a lot of it can be interpreted and there is always room for additions. The Imperial ships are the same, each Forge World that builds them will leave it's own mark on them so while two ships may be of the Emperor-class of battleship, doesn't mean they'll be exactly the same and might actually be quite different from each other under the armour.

That said in answer to that question, the answer is yes. Yes all lore is subject to the whim of the authors because they are the authors, changing what they have created is their right and in a sci-fi where facts are often untrustworthy and myth and legends form the basis for much of what it's characters know to be true, it isn't implausible that just because one character knows or believes something else that a totally different character would believe or know something else based on many factors.

There is a difference there Malus. You believe that certain authors introduce garbage into 40k, I do as well. The difference is we don't believe the same authors are responsible. I believe that CS Goto and most of the one shot authors who write IG novels, David Annandale and Andy Smillie; they are the authors whoes works I do not like. You... well i've never seen you compliment an author's work so I don't know who you like so I can only say you seem to dislike what every author does. Not trying to snipe at you there, I just really can't think of a post from you regarding a book that has been positive.


LotN


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> LoTn. There are certain writers whose _contributions _they've made to WH40k's lore is just garbage.


True. However... 



Malus Darkblade said:


> You need to accept that fact of life rather than agree every single time established lore gets massacred. The bigger question is why GW/BL/editors let them get away with it.


...in reality, there is no such thing as established lore in 40k. The entire setting, absolutely everything, gets interpreted differently. Compound that with the fact that dozens of authors, writers and games developers contribute to the setting in various ways (codices, novels, articles, magazines, games, comics, forums etc) and (quite often due to a lack of organisation) inevitably are not on the same page as each other. That is the nature of 40k: inconsistency. That's why Jim Swallow thinks the Sons of Horus armour is metallic coloured and everyone else thinks its pale green. That's why Mcneill fucked up the timeline of the Isstvan expedition. That's why the 28th Expeditionary Fleet was commanded by both Fulgrim and Magnus. It's why Qurze was simultaneously both Terran and Cthothian. It's why stasis fields appear differently across publications. It's why no one knew just how big the Legions were. You get my point. 

The quicker one accepts the inconsistency the better it will be, it has certainly helped me recently. If you simply ignore what lore you don't like (such as Dunn's take on stasis fields) - problem solved.

What bugs me is that every time a book, codex or novel is released people whine and moan about a certain aspect of the plot not fitting in with either their own interpretations or that of another author or contributor. Yes I get it, this inconsistency can be annoying at times, especially when you think the latest way item X is portrayed is stupid or when you know such issues could have been avoided with better organisation. But you have to accept it as inevitable given how the setting is.

I haven't read the books that this thread are talking about, but spitting into a stasis field and a virus spreading throughout one seems a bit daft to me. Oh well, it doesn't bother me. :laugh:


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## PlayingWithHammers

There shouldn't be any glaring inconsistencies, there are editors in Nottingham paid to ensure everything is roughly the same. We shouldn't have to justify poor workmanship by these guys. 

If CZ Dunns next book featured 5 foot tall Space Marines who rode around in bubble shaped robots firing rainbow pistols and they all worshipped the Goddess Empress in her castle on Saturn, you wouldn't just shrug and say oh things can be different in the 40k universe, you'd call them out for not fitting in within the established framework that's in place, because that's what they are paid to do.


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## Lord of the Night

PlayingWithHammers said:


> There shouldn't be any glaring inconsistencies, there are editors in Nottingham paid to ensure everything is roughly the same. We shouldn't have to justify poor workmanship by these guys.
> 
> If CZ Dunns next book featured 5 foot tall Space Marines who rode around in bubble shaped robots firing rainbow pistols and they all worshipped the Goddess Empress in her castle on Saturn, you wouldn't just shrug and say oh things can be different in the 40k universe, you'd call them out for not fitting in within the established framework that's in place, because that's what they are paid to do.


But there are always going to be inconsistencies because 40k is not a place where everything and anything is recorded, nice and neat and in triplicate. It's a universe where myths and legends are fact for most people and even those in charge aren't aware of everything that happens.

CotE is correct btw. If you don't like it, simply ignore it. Focus on what you do like.

...Big difference between your example and a piece of technology not functioning as you expect it to. The difference is so big it would need to be measured in light years.


LotN


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

PlayingWithHammers said:


> There shouldn't be any glaring inconsistencies, there are editors in Nottingham paid to ensure everything is roughly the same. We shouldn't have to justify poor workmanship by these guys.


Many lore differences are down to interpretation and thus interpretation X is not objectively correct over interpretation Y. There is no objective 40k bible which authors or editors can refer to. Thus there is no objective definition of a stasis field in 40k which is why Dunn's portrayal differs from others. Most of the issues people complain about are very minor (such as this one) and thus can easily be ignored.

Why should the editors have forced changes on Dunn's novel because stasis fields were defined differently by another author (with no seniority over Dunn) a number of years ago? What makes that authors interpretation more correct than Dunn's? 



PlayingWithHammers said:


> If CZ Dunns next book featured 5 foot tall Space Marines who rode around in bubble shaped robots firing rainbow pistols and they all worshipped the Goddess Empress in her castle on Saturn, you wouldn't just shrug and say oh things can be different in the 40k universe, you'd call them out for not fitting in within the established framework that's in place, because that's what they are paid to do.


I'd shrug and say that CZ Dunn was crazy, but if there was a market for his interpretation of the lore (seeing as BL would have published the hypothetical book) then I would simply ignore it. However, BL would obviously never publish such a book because there would be no market for it amongst the fan base. Even Goto's craziness made sales after all.


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## Brother Lucian

methinks you guys are just nitpicking over truly minor details. Sounds like complaining for the sake of complaining. Please move on.


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## kwak76

Guys you got to remember this is science fiction we are reading with 8 foot tall modify humans running around the galaxy . If anything I haven't finish reading the book but what really caught my attention was the spoiler alert.. The 10,000 years old space marine .


----------



## Phoebus

*THE ENTIRE NOVEL IS SPOILED BELOW.*

So I finally got done with 'Pandorax'. Going through this novel was tough for two reasons.

The first reason for this was my schedule. It's tough reading at the pace you like when you have a six-month-old son who (deservedly) vies for your time; it's even tougher when your unit announces that you're going to spend a couple of days going up and down the summits of Jirisan National Park, in South Korea.

The second reason for this, unfortunately, is that 'Pandorax' was _easily_ *the worst novel I've read in years.*

Now let me qualify a couple of things. I'm not incredibly hard to please. I don't expect every novel I read to be on par with 'Dune', for instance. I can easily relax with, say, 'Lord of the Night', 'His Last Command', or 'Fulgrim', and have a good time - even if I wouldn't describe any of those novels as being necessarily stellar. More importantly, I don't have an axe to grind against C.Z. Dunn. I appreciate what he's trying to do. I'm glad he's going for it and striving for his goal to be a writer. I'm happy that he's keen enough on the Dark Angels that he wants to further what they're about, and expand that particular horizon for the readers of Black Library, Games Workshop, and science fiction in general. All that having been said, 'Pandorax' _is just not a good novel._

Here's another quick qualifier. I'm not saying that no one should ever buy a book by C.Z. Dunn again. I don't like threads where Author X is labeled as a Black Library author whose books shouldn't be read. Everyone starts somewhere, and for C.Z. Dunn works like 'Easy Prey', 'Dark Vengeance', and 'Pandorax' are that starting point. Unfortunately, his stuff hasn't really impressed me thus far.

Why don't I think this is a good read? I hope you have some time. For most of you, I imagine this is going to be a rant to be filed under "TL;DR."

*THE CHARACTERS*

The main issue that I had with the cast is that you never really get involved with any of them. 'Pandorax' is much like 'The Purging of Kadillus' in the sense that there is no clear-cut protagonist and the author makes no real effort to connect you to any of his characters. Oh, there's kind of an effort to push Junior Interrogator Digriiz to that spotlight, but it's never meaningful. There's never a sense that she's anything more than a sidekick to one character or another. Just as bad, though, is the fact that most of the characters are simply telegraphed.

There's no depth to Tzula Digriiz, for instance. She's exactly who she seems to be, with no nuances, no surprises, and nothing going for her other than being a sympathetic, well-meaning straight-shooter who also happens to be a member of the Ordo Malleus of the Emperor's Most Holy Inquisition. She could still have been the thief that she was prior to being recruited by the Inquisition, and it _wouldn't have made a difference._ Her only real function in this novel is that she possesses the athame.

Same for Flight Lieutenant Shira Hagen. She is the quintessential stereotype "hot-dog fighter pilot". You've seen her in a dozen other video games, cartoons, comic books, movies, and novels. She's over the top, pulls ridiculous stunts*, and features in scenes of void and aerial warfare that are meant to highlight her skill, but never really make sense. Like Tzula, she goes through almost the entire novel with a smile on her face, un-phased by anything thrown at her.

* The highlight of these is a pointless scene in which she causes a sonic boom inside a launch bay, showering a flight officer in glass for daring to call her out for wearing an unauthorized helmet - all so that we can see what a _maverick_ she is).

The rest of the cast basically follows suit. Balthasar of the Deathwing makes an appearance, but he could easily have been Deathwing Terminator X, Y, or Z. He serves as almost nothing more than an action piece - with the exception of an ultimately pointless conversation he has with the then-Grand Master of the Deathwing, Gabriel. Colonel "Death" Strike is your prototypical Catachan, and speaks like you imagine a hardened military officer from any number of action flicks based on our current era would.

Which brings us to the characters that one would expect to carry the book absent any other protagonist: Azrael, Draigo, and Epimetheus. Unfortunately, none of them do. The primary purpose for Azrael and Draigo, more than anything else, is to provide the book with its sole source of ongoing antagonism between characters. That is, because there's no real protagonist or antagonist, the two are forced to be each other's opposite. The reason for this - that Draigo is somehow privy to the single greatest secret the Dark Angels have tried to keep hidden for ten millennia - is as flimsy as it sounds (more on this later, though).

Where Azrael is concerned, there were a dozen different ways that a character of his stature could have been written. Children under the age of ten might be exposed to Alexandre Dumas' Cardinal Richelieu, who was at once subtly menacing and lordly, capable of threatening one's life while being genial. Teenagers might be exposed to Hannibal Lecter, whose penchant for murder and cannibalism didn't preclude him from being urbane, cultured, and charming. Machiavelli and Borgia could have provided inspiration for a pragmatic, vicious, yet princely and ultimately self-righteous warlord. Dunn opted for a more telegraphed direction. His Azrael _can_ present a noble bearing befitting a Chapter Master - we see this on two occasions. For the most part, though, he is presented as obstinate and unpleasant enough to inform the reader _that this is not a good guy._ Rather dull if you ask me. 

And finally we have Epimetheus, whose contributions in this novel are kept limited in a manner that always challenged my suspension of disbelief.

Wait, wait, I lied. There's also _Huron Blackheart._ Why? *Who knows?* I know why Kharn the Betrayer was at Pandorax - it was to sell a separate product (because, you know, a duel between Azrael and one of the defining champions of Chaos wouldn't have been an integral part of 'Pandorax' or anything like that). But Huron? *He serves no purpose.* Abaddon somehow has to call on him _to borrow Sorcerers_ (I can hear you howling from here), because I guess the Black Legion was running short or something, and he fights a duel against Epimetheus that basically serves as pointless filler. You know neither of them can die, and of course neither of them does.

At any rate, none of these characters are anything more than place-holders, or cameos meant to attract readers. Again, don't expect to become attached to any of them. There's no heroic journey, no moral lesson to be witnessed, no real test of character, no meaningful transformation.

The worst part of all this is that Dunn offers evidence that he _could_ have written more compelling characters. While the Catachan Mack and Liall the Astropath were not exceptional on their own, for instance, the dynamic Dunn built around them _was_ interesting. It's not a shame that they were killed off in the process of the story; that's Grimdark, after all. It is a shame, however, that they were killed off as early as they were... and that they weren't replaced by anything better.

All this boils down to a central point, one that I'll keep coming back to throughout this rant. For some readers - maybe a lot of readers - none of the stuff I ran though might be a big deal. Many, like Lord of the Night, might even _defend_ this book and recommend it as a read. Personally, I think that has to do with what a lot of people have come to expect from _genre fiction_ and perhaps science fiction in general. I can't accept this, though. We've seen in the last few years that Warhammer 40k can be so much more than genre fiction. It's why so many posters here have positively _gushed_ at times over novels like the Night Lords Trilogy. I *challenge* anyone to show me anything in 'Pandorax' that approaches the character dynamics that defined First Claw. You won't find it. And again, you can defend this and argue that this wasn't the point of 'Pandorax'... but that's just silly. We know damn well by now that a good story and a novel that's all about a battle *are not mutually exclusive things.*

*THE PLOT*

What can I say? 'Pandorax' starts off on a fair enough premise, but is eventually stretched to the point of silliness. Abaddon the Despoiler brings his Black Legion to Pandorax to see the Damnation Cache unlocked. We eventually find out that the Cache was basically a Warp rift through which the Traitor Legions had been fed a steady supply of daemonic allies during the Horus Heresy. The Grey Knights - in one of their first missions - sealed the Cache. In doing so, they entrapped a nameless Greater Daemon of Nurgle whom they were unable to banish.

Now, at this point, I started rolling my eyes. Why, you might ask? I'm glad you asked.

Plot devices like the Damnation Cache generally work well when they fall under the category of "Things the Imperium Forgot Millennia Ago". They *don't* work, however, when the Grey Knights *are absolutely aware that they exist,* and they make even *less* sense when the same Chapter that _mindwipes_ or _murders_ those who come to close to its secrets leaves *a single guardian* to guard *one* of the *seven* Seals that protect said Cache, erects no other defenses, and then lifts not one damn finger when some random colonizing effort populates such a dangerous planet. Mind you, had Inquisitor So-And-So not arrived on the planet in question for reasons *completely unrelated to the Damnation Cache itself,* there would not have been a single protocol to notify the Grey Knights that *Abaddon the Despoiler and an entire fleet of his* were trying to unlock the damn thing!

Ultimately, though, it doesn't even matter. The entire Damnation Cache bit ends up being nothing more than a red herring - a convenient distraction from Abaddon's real objective. It's fitting then, that just as the Damnation Cache is made irrelevant (despite being the center-piece of the story for all about 2-3 pages), the various plot devices and the motivations of every other character that drive the story are accordingly non-sensical.

Probably my favorite of those was Azrael's obstinate refusal to heed Draigo's suggestion to go after the Damnation Cache directly. Two main reasons are given for this. First, Azrael wishes to eliminate all other sources of possible resistance by the Black Legion on Pythos. This might make some sense... until you remember that the reason he is on Pythos to begin with is that *there is an open Warp rift on that planet, from which an unending horde of daemons is pouring out*. Does anyone else see the logical fallacy in his priorities? _Does it really needs to be explained?_ 

Second, and perhaps more bizarre in some ways, is Azrael's touching refusal to take out the hive city that happens to sit on top of said Damnation Cache. I mean, this is the same Chapter that C.Z. Dunn described as engaging in genocide on a planetary level at the orders of the Inquisition in 'Easy Prey'. I'm sure their soft spot for hapless Imperial citizens in the clutches of Chaos would stay their hands from taking too direct an action against a source of unending daemonic power. Even better: once informed that there is no loyal soul left alive in said Hive, the Space Marines end up not striking it from orbit anyways! They go on with a pointless frontal attack that - surprise, surprise - fails miserably. What do they do immediately afterwards? You guessed it: *they call in an orbital strike!*

The way the story is told is hardly better. More often than not, C.Z. Dunn opts to _tell you_ that something happened, rather than _showing it_ to you. As often as not, you're going to get a past-tense description of how one character explained something to another character. Never mind that you could literally do a word-for-word replacement and have it occur as a normal conversation AND maintain a better flow in the story by doing so. Even better, though, are occasional gems like this, ones that make me wonder if this book ever really left the editing stage:



> _"One evening before they had met Shira, Tzula had deployed some of her more subtle Inquisition interrogation techniques, the kind where the person being interrogated does not realize it is happening. Either Epimetheus was wise to what she was doing or he had been conditioned to resist neurolinguistic questioning."_


Because, you know, actually writing out an interesting scene wherein we see the cunning of a member of the Inquisition at work would be too much of a chore. Let's get a recap instead. Again, this doesn't happen once or twice. It happens _all the time,_ throughout the novel. I found myself wondering several times how much more interesting this book would have been if only C.Z. Dunn had written all these scenes that he was more comfortable recapping!

Worse still is the dialogue that sometimes pops up. Nothing says "Gothic post-human warrior of a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes", for instance, like this kind of line:



> _"Try not to stand in front of any grenades for a while, okay?"_


"No worries, man," should have been Balthasar's nonchalant response.

I could go on, but I just don't have the energy.

*THE ACTION*

The whole point of this novel is that it's APOCALYPSE. It's supposed to be this huge conflict, with the Dark Angels, the Grey Knights, and the Imperial Guard on one side, and the Black Legion on the other. When you buy this novel, you know you're in for battles and war machines. If you're me, you're also hoping for a good story as well, but the battles and war machines are a given.

Here's what I hope for: an author who actually thinks through what a battle might be like. You know, what all these tanks, Titans, aircraft, etc., could and could not do. I want the author to exercise his imagination, and when all else fails to use the initiative and do some damn research and see what the equivalent of the things he's writing about can do in real life.

Unfortunately, we don't get any of that with 'Pandorax'. There are only a couple of efforts to inject a sense of tactics in the characters; both fall flat.

One is during the void battle between Abaddon's lieutenant, Malgar Irongrasp, and the Imperial Admiral Kranswar. Unfortunately, even that ultimately falls flat. Here's how it goes, in fewer words:

"Alright, here's the plan, gentlemen," began the Admiral.
"We just got our asses kicked by Chaos about half an hour ago. The good news is that the enemy fleet is currently in an asteroid field. I will send forth our escort vessels and our superior number of fighters to engage them in the asteroid field, which should minimize the effectiveness of the enemy's capital ships."
There was a long, pregnant pause in the command bridge.
"But sir," a subordinate finally interjected, "we have reason to believe we really don't possess superiority in terms of fighters."
"Shut up, lackey," the Admiral retorted. "I said we will attack the enemy within the asteroid field where it is to our advantage!"
The Admiral stomped his foot in tune with each word of his closing sentence. In this way, he made it clear that this was _a very important part of the plan._

Now, raise your hand if you figured out already the the Chaos forces figured out that it's fucking stupid to sit in an asteroid field where they can't use their capital ships, and where the Imperial fighters can pull Luke Skywalker stunts on them all day. There are no prizes for this, because it's obvious. But if it _wasn't_ obvious enough, the author was kind enough to practically _spell it out for you,_ by having said Admiral reminisce about all the times his peers accused him of being unimaginative and predictable. Maybe you _still_ thought that old Kranswar was going to somehow pull it off by relying on the Chaos Space Marines to be utter morons, though. I hate to burst your bubble, but literally four pages later the bad guys ensure you that they will not, in fact, be said utter morons.

The other is when the Dark Angels take to the field in a formation of two circles, one within the other, each rotating in the opposite direction of the other. Why this formation? Good question. Probably because the Dark Angels have their Inner Circle and thus it would follow _that a formation made of circles would make sense for them._ Does this actually make sense, though? Does anything resembling a dance routine that incorporates machineguns make sense in the grand scheme of things? *Who cares?* It's style over substance. It goes hand in hand with every other instance wherein the author wrote in whatever he needed in order to make his job easier.

The Dark Angels doing a "double circle formation march" makes about as much sense as Gabriel's Terminator armour bring blown up by a grenade, or the constant description of plague zombies bringing down Dark Angels and _tearing their power armour off of them with their bare hands._ It easily serves the needs of the story, and it all it requires is for the reader to forget just how helpless Space Marines really are if every one of them is theoretically trumped by a comparatively small group of individuals suicidal enough to try to pull their pieces of power armour off of them so that their buddies can bludgeon, bite, choke, etc, them.

From there on, there's not even an effort of trying to make sense of how a battle might be fought. What you get is the same tired description of an undefined horde of Guardsmen clashing with another undefined horde of daemons or whatever, with an undefined number of tanks rolling around said melee. That's not Grimdark; that's unimaginative and - I hate to say it - *lazy*.

When this sparsely and unimaginatively described slugfest does break down into individual battles, it doesn't get better. What we get is a series of banal scenes that serve to introduce one vehicle after another. They are little more than pointless filler, each one showing a vehicle destroying some other vehicle, only for the winner to be destroyed by the next vehicle on the credits list. That's not a battle; that's not even good product placement. About the only vehicle that felt like part of the action in a real and meaningful way was the Hellhammer super-heavy, and even then half its contributions where of the last-second "Thank Goodness the Jokaero Modified Our Tank Like This" variety.

Making matters worse, the game on which the Warhammer 40k novels are based intrudes in the action in the worst way possible. Games of Warhammer 40k are simulations of battle in the forty-first millennium, condensed in a medium that can be played out on a table of a certain size. The scale of the game simply does not take into account what actual artillery pieces can do, or how fast tanks can move as opposed to infantry, or at what range attack aircraft can actually strike.

Again, you can try to defend all this, but the fact of the matter is that common sense and Warhammer 40k are not mutually exclusive. Technology and Warhammer 40k are not mutually exclusive. When C.Z. Dunn describes a guy in a tank _hearing_ a bunch of bombers coming to attack them, he's basically not even _trying_ to write science into his fiction. I genuinely hope that, one day, authors like Dunn will realize that, yes, you _can_ write an aerial battle between supersonic aircraft capable of breaking out of orbit in a way other than World War I biplanes gunning at each other from a hundred yards away... *and still make it exciting!* Shocking, I know!

That doesn't mean you can't inject the charmingly anachronistic tactics the Imperial Guard utilizes thanks to its fanatical, inhuman leadership. See the Planetfall chapters from 'The Armour of Contempt', for instance. 

Sadly, Dunn shows us that he *could* write decent battles. A prime example of this is the beginning of his opening void battle, featuring Shira Hagen. He writes a rather convincing and exciting sequence wherein void fighters perform attack runs against enemy warships. Afterwards, though? Nothing. I mean, hey, why _not_ have a Valkyrie park itself in front of a titanic daemon that's constantly spitting out daemons and giant tentacles in order to fire off its weapons? Why would it and every other Imperial aircraft not do so from miles away? Who knows? Probably because then the author might be forced to, I don't know, actually think of a convincing way for daemons to defeat science and physics... even though that, boys and girls, might just make for amazing stories!

The parting shot where action is concerned is Dunn's final battle, which takes place in tunnels and giant caverns beneath Pythos. There was potential for something really interesting to be told here: the claustrophobia of close-quarters fighting; breakneck speeds vying against enclosed areas (think Endor speeder scene underground); a horrific polar-opposite to trench warfare, wherein one's forces are fed into a literal meat grinder only so many meters wide and tall. Ultimately, though, you get virtually nothing different from the surface battles. C.Z. Dunn spares barely a line to describe how only a couple of Valkyries could fly abreast whilst transiting in the tunnels themselves. If you removed the instances of "cavern" from its description, the battle of the Emerald Cave would hardly differ from the one waged outside of Atika Hive.

And ultimately that's what it boils down to. Most of the battles aren't substantially different from one another in this novel, just as they aren't substantially different from similarly phrased, similarly condensed battles in other, less-than-stellar books released by Black Library.

*OTHER RANDOM CRAP*

What was the point of Draigo knowing the Dark Angels' deepest, darkest secrets? All it does is reduce the importance of said secrets as the defining theme of that Chapter, and it does *nothing* to advance the storyline. All it really does is open up a giant can of worms. Why would Draigo not reveal this horrible secret to the Inquisition or the High Lords, both of which groups are known to suspect the Dark Angels? And if he hasn't, why doesn't Azrael call him out on his bluff?

This as such an absolutely ham-fisted way to force the Dark Angels and the Grey Knights into a joint campaign. One of the oldest plot devices in 40k has been ruined, simply to help one author write one story...

On a different, more general level, it was so disappointing to see the effect the daemonic could have on normal human beings almost completely ignored throughout the novel. With the exception of the reaction of the Caudices upon entering the Emerald Cave, C.Z. Dunn may as well have been describing Guardsmen fighting any other foe.

I mean, remember the older fluff from Abaddon's Thirteenth Black Crusade? In one of the excerpts, a Bloodthirster manifesting within a Cadian Kasr drove the Guardsmen murderously insane against one another. Extreme and adverse physical, mental, and psychological reactions to the daemonic feature prominently in so many other novels. Why not here? What is it about these Guardsmen that allows them to fight on within their tanks as if they're simply tackling rebels or Tau or what have you?

Anyways.

It's after midnight, I'm tired, and I can't bring myself to devote much more energy to this.

Again, I have nothing against C.Z. Dunn. Ideally, the stories he's writing are his trial by fire, and we'll see better things from him soon. That having been said, I just can't find it in me to recommend this book to virtually anyone other than the most rabid, dedicated fan of the genre, or of the Chapters, Legion, and Regiment showcased in it.

It is my sincere hope that Black Library continues to focus more on the _quality_ side of the business rather than the _quantity_ side. I can't see how novels like 'Pandorax' can be good for their long-term bottom line.

Cheers,
P.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Phoebus said:


> Wait, wait, I lied. There's also _Huron Blackheart._ Why? *Who knows?* I know why Kharn the Betrayer was at Pandorax - it was to sell a separate product (because, you know, a duel between Azrael and one of the defining champions of Chaos wouldn't have been an integral part of 'Pandorax' or anything like that). But Huron? *He serves no purpose.* Abaddon somehow has to call on him _to borrow Sorcerers_ (I can hear you howling from here), because I guess the Black Legion was running short or something, and he fights a duel against Epimetheus that basically serves as pointless filler. You know neither of them can die, and of course neither of them does.


Or because Abaddon knew that the casualty rate among the Sorcerers would be high and decided that rather than waste his own Sorcerers in a battle that he never intended to win, why not call on Huron Blackheart and get him to use his own Sorcerers in exchange for plundering rights, a few ships added to the Tyrant's fleet means little when compared to Abaddon's own fleets and Huron will lose quite a few of his Sorcerers which aren't easy to replace. And as to the duel, it doesn't matter if neither of the characters can die because duels can be fun to read just because they are happnening, not because somebody has to die. But that is up to the reader.



Phoebus said:


> They *don't* work, however, when the Grey Knights *are absolutely aware that they exist,* and they make even *less* sense when the same Chapter that _mindwipes_ or _murders_ those who come to close to its secrets leaves *a single guardian* to guard *one* of the *seven* Seals that protect said Cache, erects no other defenses, and then lifts not one damn finger when some random colonizing effort populates such a dangerous planet.


I see this as a smart idea, more obvious defences would have given away that there was something worth protecting on Pandorax and since the Grey Knights were the only ones who knew about it, why not make the defences low-key? That way nobody would be attracted to Pandorax simply because of the huge defenses that must be protecting something good, how Abaddon found out about it should have been explained but I think the lack of defenses was another kind of defense, the shield of anonimity. Same for the colony, a low-key colony makes the planet appear more normal and would present a bigger target to any invader, there are colonies for the taking so maybe they'll focus on them and not hunt around the planet and stumble onto something they shouldn't.



Phoebus said:


> Where Azrael is concerned, there were a dozen different ways that a character of his stature could have been written. Children under the age of ten might be exposed to Alexandre Dumas' Cardinal Richelieu, who was at once subtly menacing and lordly, capable of threatening one's life while being genial. Teenagers might be exposed to Hannibal Lecter, whose penchant for murder and cannibalism didn't preclude him from being urbane, cultured, and charming. Machiavelli and Borgia could have provided inspiration for a pragmatic, vicious, yet princely and ultimately self-righteous warlord. Dunn opted for a more telegraphed direction. His Azrael can present a noble bearing befitting a Chapter Master - we see this on two occasions. For the most part, though, he is presented as obstinate and unpleasant enough to inform the reader that this is not a good guy. Rather dull if you ask me.


Why is it a problem that Azrael is presented as not being a good guy? He isn't. This is a Chapter Master who is ok with his Chapter doing all sorts of shady stuff, like breaking down an Imperial prison world just to get one prisoner who caught a glimpse of one of the Fallen once, or allowing his warriors to destroy a Black Templars Strike Cruiser just to protect their secret. He is not a good guy, he is a warrior who does terrible and horrible things in the name of good but he himself is far from good or nice. And his obstinacy to Draigo is likely because his Chapter has essentially been blackmailed into this conflict and he is concerned that Draigo is aware of some aspects of the Dark Angels secrets and that even if he is, there is absolutely nothing Azrael can do about that because the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights isn't someone he can disappear or allow to die in battle by inaction. Azrael can have his moments (as he did in _Trials of Azrael_) but ultimately he is not a good man.


Just some thoughts in relation to certain points you made. As to the rest that is simply up to you, I disagree and I think _Pandorax_ was a fine novel that was very fun to read. I do however think it's very good of you to not blast the author as most people would do, very big of you.


LotN


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## Malus Darkblade

Lord of the Night said:


> Or because Abaddon knew that the casualty rate among the Sorcerers would be high and decided that rather than waste his own Sorcerers in a battle that he never intended to win, why not call on Huron Blackheart and get him to use his own Sorcerers in exchange for plundering rights


Did Abaddon say that was why he did it or is it just you making up your own theory to defend a text that is just flawed in many ways?


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## Lord of the Night

Malus Darkblade said:


> Did Abaddon say that was why he did it or is it just you making up your own theory to defend a text that is just flawed in many ways?


No Malus, Abaddon does not say that. But who says it's flawed text, perhaps i'm pointing out what was subtly implied in the story when you read Abaddon's plan and how he carried it out.

In fact Abaddon's tactics through the entire novel can be read as quite subtle and well-played;

He brings in Blackheart to supply the Sorcerers knowing that their death is likely and choosing to let the Blackheart spend his Sorcerers, which are rare, in exchange for whatever Imperial ships he can salvage, which are common. Blackheart's loss is Abaddon's gain as this venture cost him nothing while Blackheart lost a fair bit, and he can't actually blame Abaddon since Blackheart volunteered the Sorcerers and was promised plundering rights, which isn't a guarantee of getting anything, merely the promise of the freedom to try.

He lets the Plague Marines and the Red Corsairs do the bulk of the fighting where they take heavy casualties while his Black Legionnaires do take part in the fighting, he loses much less than they do and walks away with the real prize of the conflict. If the Plague Marines survive then they owe him a favour, if not then they weren't his to begin with so he's lost nothing by their deaths. And every Corsair dead is one less soldier in a future usurper's army.

The Damnation Cache is an entirely optional reward. If it opens and the Daemons get loose then an entire sector will be brought down and Abaddon can use it to launch attacks on the Imperium and as a staging point in the 13th Black Crusade. If not he's still walked away with a psyker of immense power, gene-seed sold to Fabius Bile for future services, and the potential of breaking a 10,000 year old Grey Knight to his service. And even if that never happens, he still denied the Grey Knights and the Imperium Epimetheus's intelligence and power, and he managed to kill a fair few Grey Knights and Dark Angels who will definitely and likely, respectively, be responders to his future Black Crusade and thus they will be weakened by this conflict and be less effective when they really need to be.


LotN


----------



## Phoebus

Lord of the Night said:


> Or because Abaddon knew that the casualty rate among the Sorcerers would be high and decided that rather than waste his own Sorcerers in a battle that he never intended to win, why not call on Huron Blackheart and get him to use his own Sorcerers in exchange for plundering rights, a few ships added to the Tyrant's fleet means little when compared to Abaddon's own fleets and Huron will lose quite a few of his Sorcerers which aren't easy to replace.


Except that this is neither alluded to by any of the characters or otherwise hinted at by the author. This comes back to my central point, LotN: you can feel free to defend the author, fill in his blanks for him, etc., but *I expect more.*

Either way, though, your hypothesis is neither nor there. From the book itself:

_“Abaddon had fulfilled the second [requirement] by supplying the Plague Lord with a *seemingly endless stream of sorcerers, so numerous were the cabals who had rallied to his cause.*”_

Point of fact, Blackheart's cabal is there because it's so powerful. Whatever. Any way you cut it, it's simply an excuse to showcase Huron.



> And as to the duel, it doesn't matter if neither of the characters can die because duels can be fun to read just because they are happnening, not because somebody has to die. But that is up to the reader.


You're right, that's ultimately the difference between us as readers. Meaning no offense, what you described above is filler, pure and simple. You don't mind it, but I want to see battle that arises as a natural part of a cogent plot. Again, 40k genre fiction and good storytelling are *not mutually exclusive.*



> I see this as a smart idea, more obvious defences ...


You're arguing a point that I'm not making, though. I'm pointing at the fact that, while the Grey Knights were _indisputably aware_ of the threat the Damnation Cache posed, they had no means of knowing _if it was actually in danger._ That's ludicrous. Now, at this point you might hypothesize that the alert protocols the Grey Knights _had_ put in place were somehow eliminated by Abaddon's efforts. But again, I don't feel like making assumptions for C.Z. Dunn. It's his job to present a cogent plot, period.



> Why is it a problem that Azrael is presented as not being a good guy?


Please read my posts for content. I'm by no means saying Azrael should have been written as a "good guy"; that would have been ludicrous. What I'm suggesting is that Azrael could have been written in any number of ways other than as Draigo's straight opposite - that he didn't have to be the obstinate, difficult guy simply for the sake of being the obstinate, difficult guy.



> And his obstinacy to Draigo is likely because his Chapter has essentially been blackmailed into this conflict and he is concerned that Draigo is aware of some aspects of the Dark Angels secrets ...


Which is it's own can of worms. Honestly, what a tremendous mishandling of fluff that was.



Lord of the Night said:


> No Malus, Abaddon does not say that. But who says it's flawed text, perhaps i'm pointing out what was subtly implied in the story when you read Abaddon's plan and how he carried it out.


See above. Huron's cabal of sorcerers is just a plot device for him to feature in this story. Huron Blackheart's being the purveyor of cabals of sorcerers is simply an invention as old as the ink 'Pandorax' was printed on. He's simply a place-holder, a name to get people to read the story.



> In fact Abaddon's tactics through the entire novel can be read as quite subtle and well-played; ...


Where Huron (as a vehicle for a sorcererous cabal that Abaddon had no reason to not have) is concerned, you have my thoughts. Where everything else is concerned, the fact that the Damnation Cache ended up being a giant red herring doesn't make Abaddon particularly clever. It just gave the author an excuse to not have to worry about, you know, actually showing Abaddon *do stuff*. He makes a couple of brief cameos, and then the Black Legion simply engages in a number of off-handedly mentioned skirmishes that don't really play a role in the actual plot.

Feel free to interpret that as some sort of display of tactical ability... But in reality it boils down to avoidance on the part of the author. It's the easy way out.


----------



## Phoebus

One last note. While I spent a lot of time denouncing this book, I have to give this to C.Z. Dunn: the scene wherein Corpulax gets the bad news from the members of the Inner Circle was probably worth the price of admission on its own. I laughed, and laughed, and laughed! Kudos for that, Mr. Dunn!


----------



## Lord of the Night

Phoebus said:


> You're right, that's ultimately the difference between us as readers. Meaning no offense, what you described above is filler, pure and simple. You don't mind it, but I want to see battle that arises as a natural part of a cogent plot. Again, 40k genre fiction and good storytelling are *not mutually exclusive.*


I have never once claimed they are mutually exclusive, and that isn't what I meant. I mean that to me a good fight scene can be as enjoyable as a plot twist, character development or fascinating world-building if it's done correctly. For example the TV show Arrow, one of the best things about it are the wonderfully choreographed and powerful action scenes that practically every episode has, and while the outcome is a part of what draws my attention the fight itself is fun on it's own because they are so well done. I feel the same way about a fight scene in a book, the outcome is interesting but my enjoyment of a fight/battle/war scene isn't based on wondering who will win, it's simply enjoying the imagery of battle and the intricacy of the fights between heroes and villains. Hence why when famous characters like Azrael and Kharn fight, or a fight contains a character like Abaddon or Blackheart who we know isn't going to do, I still enjoy them because I enjoy the entirety of the fight, not just the outcome.



Phoebus said:


> One last note. While I spent a lot of time denouncing this book, I have to give this to C.Z. Dunn: the scene wherein Corpulax gets the bad news from the members of the Inner Circle was probably worth the price of admission on its own. I laughed, and laughed, and laughed! Kudos for that, Mr. Dunn!


Indeed that was a very funny scene, both that and the scene where Draigo clocked Azrael were the moments that had me laughing heartily.


As to the rest all I can say is it's down to a difference of opinion. I enjoyed the book, you did not. That's all that can be said, but kudos to you for a well-thought out post and for not blasting the author over not liking the book.


LotN


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## aaronspuler

http://ukitakumuki.deviantart.com/art/Black-Library-Trials-of-Azrael-412081210


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## Phoebus

*Lord of the Night*,

Here's what I'm getting at. There's obviously nothing wrong with a good fight scene. I'd be a masochist of the worst kind if I were reading Warhammer 40k fiction while also cultivating a dislike of action scenes and the like. The issue at hand is when the action _doesn't support the storyline._ Thus, while there's obviously nothing wrong with a showdown between famous characters (quite the opposite, in fact), it IS a mark of a poor story when the action is there *for the sake of having action.* That was the point I was trying to make: precisely because Huron Blackheart is brought into the story for threadbare reasons, we know that there won't be any conclusive end to his battle with Epimetheus, just as we know that there is no impact to the larger story. Thus, there is no dramatic tension to it, nor a reason for the reader to be invested in it. The extent to which the reader _will_ be invested in it begins and ends with the battle, since the battle _doesn't support the story._

You're cool with that. _That's fine._ But that sort of thing doesn't make for good fiction. I'm not trying to say my reading standards make me a better person or whatever. It just has to do with the bar that is being set. I do apologize if I came off as making a statement about you. 



> Indeed that was a very funny scene, both that and the scene where Draigo clocked Azrael were the moments that had me laughing heartily.


I actually have to disagree where the second scene is concerned; I found it to be one of profound gravitas. It at once reveals a great deal both regarding the secrets the Dark Angels have tried so hard to suppress and Azrael's own motivations and psychology.

Where the former is concerned, Azrael now has to ponder what it means for the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus to know that the Dark Angels hunt down members of their former Legion from the days of the Horus Heresy. What does it mean when the Inquisition hasn't moved on them yet? Does this mean the Unforgiven have been deemed too valuable to be brought up on charges - so long as they don't cross the Grey Knights? On how thin ice are the Dark Angels and their Successors? What can they and cannot do in the name of the Hunt at this point?

Where the latter is concerned, while it has always been clear that Azrael is willing to commit dark deeds in the name of what he considers to be a righteous cause, it is now also clear that he doesn't _like_ the fact that he has to do so. That's a significantly different viewpoint from that of Interrogator-Chaplain Vargas (from 'Sons of Fenris'), for instance.

Cheers,
P.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Phoebus said:


> Here's what I'm getting at. There's obviously nothing wrong with a good fight scene. I'd be a masochist of the worst kind if I were reading Warhammer 40k fiction while also cultivating a dislike of action scenes and the like. The issue at hand is when the action _doesn't support the storyline._ Thus, while there's obviously nothing wrong with a showdown between famous characters (quite the opposite, in fact), it IS a mark of a poor story when the action is there *for the sake of having action.* That was the point I was trying to make: precisely because Huron Blackheart is brought into the story for threadbare reasons, we know that there won't be any conclusive end to his battle with Epimetheus, just as we know that there is no impact to the larger story. Thus, there is no dramatic tension to it, nor a reason for the reader to be invested in it. The extent to which the reader _will_ be invested in it begins and ends with the battle, since the battle _doesn't support the story._
> 
> You're cool with that. _That's fine._ But that sort of thing doesn't make for good fiction. I'm not trying to say my reading standards make me a better person or whatever. It just has to do with the bar that is being set. I do apologize if I came off as making a statement about you.


I get what your saying, but in Pandorax's case it comes down to how you feel about the presence of Blackheart in the example you give. I feel he did serve a purpose in the story, albeit one another random Lord could have filled, but I think that Blackheart being involved shows that Abaddon is taking this seriously enough that he is willing to make a bargain with him to increase his chances of getting what he wants.

Not really, I just think that in this case Blackheart's presence wasn't simply filler. What you've described there I am most definitely not cool with, bolter porn is not my thing and while yes I could enjoy an action scene like that if it is unconnected to the story then that would drastically lower my enjoyment of it. And no you don't come off as doing that.



Phoebus said:


> I actually have to disagree where the second scene is concerned; I found it to be one of profound gravitas. It at once reveals a great deal both regarding the secrets the Dark Angels have tried so hard to suppress and Azrael's own motivations and psychology.
> 
> Where the former is concerned, Azrael now has to ponder what it means for the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus to know that the Dark Angels hunt down members of their former Legion from the days of the Horus Heresy. What does it mean when the Inquisition hasn't moved on them yet? Does this mean the Unforgiven have been deemed too valuable to be brought up on charges - so long as they don't cross the Grey Knights? On how thin ice are the Dark Angels and their Successors? What can they and cannot do in the name of the Hunt at this point?
> 
> Where the latter is concerned, while it has always been clear that Azrael is willing to commit dark deeds in the name of what he considers to be a righteous cause, it is now also clear that he doesn't _like_ the fact that he has to do so. That's a significantly different viewpoint from that of Interrogator-Chaplain Vargas (from 'Sons of Fenris'), for instance.
> 
> Cheers,
> P.


I meant only the moment when Draigo actually did punch Azrael, that and the Guardians of the Covenant all subtly turning to stare at him until Azrael wonders what's going on. The scene that followed was quite heavy yes, and it shows that the Dark Angels haven't gone 10,000 years without some people at least forming theories about what it is they are so desperate to keep secret. Personally I don't think Draigo knows exactly what the Fallen are, only that the Dark Angels are hunting a group of Space Marines and will stop at nothing to get them, but he doesn't know what they do to them or why. If he did he might have gone for that meeting with the High Lords anyway, or he might ignore it. Either way there are implications.

And if Draigo is more aware then we think, then it's a subtle statement that the Dark Angels are overreacting to the consequences of their secret getting out. If Draigo knows and hasn't done anything it might be that others would understand why they would want to hide that, the methods they've used no so much, and would simply not care. Which means that all the lengths the Dark Angels have gone to in order to hide their secret have been for nothing, which would be some very heavy irony.


LotN


----------



## Valrak

I enjoyed them both, good stuff.


----------



## piemelke

I finished the book yesterday after reading 7th retribution, lords of mars and vulkan lives, I have to say it was a nice book, not the best I read but decent certainly compared to the other 3.
I tend to agree with phoebus regarding stereotypes and often shallow characters, but the epic scale made up for a lot, actually I am starting to enjoy this buildup towards the 13th BC more than the HH, the links with the NL books, the last SW books and now this one together with the link with the DA HH books is actually kinda interesting. 
I do not think he is a lost case to be honest, and I also do not fully understand why he is such a prize, surely there must have been other GK who got captured ? and other alpha psykers ..., anyhow enjoyed it, I hope we get an entire series around the 13th BC, 
I also agree that e.g. Huron is there mainly for the show, however for me it is not just an appearance, after reading gildar rift, blood reaver and the short story where Honsou gets his army to invade ultramar Huron I got the impression that Huron was again a new super-genius-unbeatable bad guy without a clear motive besides being the biggest cunt in the galaxy, now at least he got his arse kicked (a little),


----------



## Reaper45

I don't find it unbelievable that Dragio knows, after all Epimetheus was a founding member of the Grey knights, he most likely told the other founding members and the chapter master, Loken was a prisoner of luther's He probably guessed what happens. 

Is it really a stretch that the uber secret grey knights are keeping a secret of a first founding chapter? As for not having a character to bond with what about K'cee? Who couldn't love the furry little guy.

Throughout the entire book you read about humans killing themselves due to daemons or freezing in combat. By the end of the campaign only the most hardcore guardsmen would be alive. 

Given that the entire book is basically abaddon securing resources for a black crusade is anyone surprised as to how it turned out? The things with huron blackhart make sense. If not done poorly. 

I'd have been all for abaddon getting his head handed to him by Epimetheus but then that would effect fluff wouldn't it.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Phoebus said:


> The other is when the Dark Angels take to the field in a formation of two circles, one within the other, each rotating in the opposite direction of the other. Why this formation? Good question. Probably because the Dark Angels have their Inner Circle and thus it would follow that a formation made of circles would make sense for them. Does this actually make sense, though? Does anything resembling a dance routine that incorporates machineguns make sense in the grand scheme of things? Who cares? It's style over substance. It goes hand in hand with every other instance wherein the author wrote in whatever he needed in order to make his job easier.
> 
> The Dark Angels doing a "double circle formation march" makes about as much sense as Gabriel's Terminator armour bring blown up by a grenade, or the constant description of plague zombies bringing down Dark Angels and tearing their power armour off of them with their bare hands. It easily serves the needs of the story, and it all it requires is for the reader to forget just how helpless Space Marines really are if every one of them is theoretically trumped by a comparatively small group of individuals suicidal enough to try to pull their pieces of power armour off of them so that their buddies can bludgeon, bite, choke, etc, them.


LOL that is almost comedy gold, hilarious

Will not be buying...or reading


----------



## godking

Malus Darkblade said:


> Things I dislike so far
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1) Plague Marines die from regular humans. Some Catachans, who have never seen a Space Marine before but know where the weak spots of Astartes armor is thanks to the _Infantry's Uplifting Primer_, stab one in the neck and kill him. How regular humans can sneak up on a Space Marine is something I just can't comprehend. They have their augmented senses amplified 100 fold by their helms and regular humans somehow manage to sneak up on one, even using fucking bird calls to alert one another to the Marine's presence and the Marine could not determine that a human made the sounds. It shouldn't matter if the humans were jungle warfare experts.
> 
> 2) Three more Plague Marines die when they stumble upon the first one's corpse which was stuffed with explosions and they comically find themselves launched through the air, past the trees and into an open field, knocking down some Plague Marines just standing guard. How the Catachans managed to not get infected by the Plague Marine's blood/corpse/being next to it is something else entirely.
> 
> 3) Stasis fields apparently are not immune to the ravages of the outside world. One of the traitor Inquisitors recieves a vial from the lead Plague Marine that is filled with the Life-Eater virus (why a Plague Marine of all the traitor legions would resort to using human-made viruses as opposed to ones made by Nurgle is just....no comment) which shatters and bypasses a stasis field housing a bunch of psykers, contaminating them. So basically, Guilliman could theoretically be healing since stasis field technology apparently is not that effective. The traitor Inquisitor says gases (and liquids IIRC) can bypass stasis fields in general, not just in the book. El o El
> 
> 4) There is a Grey Knight who just chills in an alcove for approximately 10,000 years and when he wakes up and realizes this, what he says is the equivalent of a 'oh ok' shrug.
> 
> 5) Droplets of the Life Eater viruses apparently takes a while before completely killing its victims as opposed to previous lore.


Regarding the plague marines space marines are not invincible and can be outsmarted and suprised by regular humans in the correct settings.


----------



## godking

piemelke said:


> I finished the book yesterday after reading 7th retribution, lords of mars and vulkan lives, I have to say it was a nice book, not the best I read but decent certainly compared to the other 3.
> I tend to agree with phoebus regarding stereotypes and often shallow characters, but the epic scale made up for a lot, actually I am starting to enjoy this buildup towards the 13th BC more than the HH, the links with the NL books, the last SW books and now this one together with the link with the DA HH books is actually kinda interesting.
> I do not think he is a lost case to be honest, and I also do not fully understand why he is such a prize, surely there must have been other GK who got captured ? and other alpha psykers ..., anyhow enjoyed it, I hope we get an entire series around the 13th BC,
> I also agree that e.g. Huron is there mainly for the show, however for me it is not just an appearance, after reading gildar rift, blood reaver and the short story where Honsou gets his army to invade ultramar Huron I got the impression that Huron was again a new super-genius-unbeatable bad guy without a clear motive besides being the biggest cunt in the galaxy, now at least he got his arse kicked (a little),


I liked Huron's depiction in this novel he is a bad dude but clearly second best to abbadon and he knows it.

I liked the interaction and word sparring between Huron and Abbadon.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

godking said:


> Regarding the plague marines space marines are not invincible and can be outsmarted and suprised by regular humans in the correct settings.


nosorryplaguemarinesareinvincible


----------



## Aralon56

During the book Epimetheus Says that some one swapped places with him does anyone else think that person was Astelan?


----------



## Cruxyh

Malus Darkblade said:


> nosorryplaguemarinesareinvincible


Ah, so plague marines are invincible? good, all it takes to conquer the universe would be a few Death Guard plague marines. :laugh: 

Now, on a more serious note; source for your claim that plague marines are in fact invincible? or will this be like that time you claimed Sisters of Battle had massacred a bunch of Grey Knights?

EDIT: Just finished the book, found it enjoyable enough. Time to start reading "The Burning Shore" I think...


----------



## Phoebus

Weeks later, this book is still haunting me... *on so many different levels.* It's not my intent to sound insulting by any means, but when I read posts by people who claim to have *enjoyed* Pandorax, I can't help but think of a recent interview of chef-cum-TV culinary personality Anthony Burdain, and his thoughts on generic food: _"I can't drive past a Chili's or Olive Garden and not boil with rage."_ Now, I'm not a professional writer, so I can't _directly_ correlate my frustration with Burdain's, but that's basically how I feel. :biggrin:

There were _so many things wrong_ with 'Pandorax' that I'm genuinely perplexed when people express that it's a "good book" or that they enjoyed. I find myself wondering just what their criteria were for enjoying a book. Speaking for myself, the only way I could have felt even _neutral_ about it is if my expectations had been turned down to "I'm just hoping to see some Space Marines blow up some shit."

With that in mind, I'll go ahead and post my "Play-by-Play" that I originally promised... but edited, and written from the perspective of having read the entire book (as opposed to offering the zingers as I'm first seeing them). I'll also try to avoid repeating points I made in my previous post. 

It didn't take long for me to feel uneasy about what I was getting into. That's not to say that the exposition and the Prelude were necessarily _bad;_ I was just left more curious about the author thought process rather than what was going to happen. One example of this? I found myself wondering what the point of the Prelude's second section was, in the "Undesignated Feral Ice-world". I initially shrugged it off, and assumed it was meant to showcase the time-bending qualities of the Warp. By the novel's end, though, it was just one of many concepts that had been thrown in haphazardly (presumably to spice things up). Tellingly, most of these didn't aid the story in any meaningful way.

Unfortunately, the above didn't apply just to peripheral concepts. The whole plot is tenuous at best. The story starts with Inquisitor Dinalt and his Junior Interrogator, Tzula, who are on Fal'Shia (a Tau colony) to steal an Athame. In short order, we find out that Dinalt needs this Athame in order to complete his life-long quest, which is to destroy the Hellfire Stone. He was directed to the Athame and Pythos by a book appropriately enough named the Hellfire Tome. The hunt for the Tome had begun after the interrogation of a captive Alpha Legionnaire, and led Dinalt to a daemon world, across which he and a battalion of Stormtroopers had to "battle ... to take possession of [the Hellfire Tome]."

All of this would have been fine... but, a mere handful of pages later, _virtually all of this setup is contradicted._ Dinalt encounters Corpulax, a turncoat Consecrator sworn to Nurgle, who reveals to him that Dinalt's quest was part of a giant rouse that was - presumably - set up by Abaddon the Despoiler. The Alpha Legionnaire prisoner? He *fed* his information to Dinalt as part of that rouse. The Hellfire Tome? It was a *fake* that nonetheless gave the reader real directions to the Hellfire Stone's probable location. Dinalt was _supposed_ to find the Athame and eventually bring it to Pythos... at which point, Corpulax would steal it from him.

I had to rub my eyes out of frustration at that point.

"Well, that might be a convoluted plot, Phoebus," you might say, "but it's not *that* bad."

_Oh, really?_

The Alpha Legionnaire who, according to Corpulax, fed Dinalt his information didn't just steer the Inquisitor to the (fake) Hellfire Tome. Before giving him that handy set of directions, he actually steered him to *the exact location where the Hellfire Stone was manifesting.* It's only _after_ Dinalt arrived there (and failed to destroy the Stone) that the Legionnaire told him about the (fake) Hellfire Tome. How the hell did *that* play into Abaddon's "master plan"?!?

But if _that_ doesn't contradict the shit out of the plot enough to leave you shaking your head... 

When Dinalt showed up to the planet where the Hellfire Stone last manifested, he didn't show up alone. Oh, no, he brought *almost the entire battlefleet of Segmentum Solar* and not one, not two, but *THREE* Brotherhoods of the Grey Knights. They had to go through entire *fleets* of Chaos forces to get to that planet, but they failed to destroy the Stone and it disappeared. _That's_ how dangerous the Ordo Malleus considered the Hellfire Stone to be. Fast forward to the events of 'Pandorax', though, which the Inquisition _knows_ is precisely when the Stone shows up again, and who does Dinalt arrive on Pythos with? Just his four trusty acolytes (one of whom is actually a traitor, but whatever) and a Jokaero weaponsmith.

No, don't get me wrong, I get that you can't _always_ get almost an entire Segmentum's battlefleet to leave almost twenty percent of the Galaxy's space undefended to help you destroy a single Chaos artifact. I get it. In fact, I get how that _wouldn't happen to begin with._ No, what annoyed me about this is the inconsistency _within the story itself._ I don't get how the Inquisition's priority level for the Hellfire Stone would go from *"ARMAGEDDON IS HAPPENING NOW! SEND EVERYTHING WE HAVE AVAILABLE!!!"* to _"You can handle this shit yourself, Dinalt."_

It's not as if Dinalt got to the world the Hellfire Stone manifest at last time and it ended up being a giant false alarm and a waste of time for the Inquisition. It was patently obvious that the Hellfire Stone was important enough for a metric ass-ton of Chaos war bands to chase after it as well. So why did the Inquisition all of a sudden decided to not give a shit?

Alright, let's assume that the Imperium was somehow much more busy during the events of 'Pandorax', and that there were no assets available to help Dinalt out. (Obviously we know that's *not* the case: the Dark Angels were able to spare their whole Chapter, and Draigo dropped everything he was doing and brought an entire Brotherhood that was with him.) Even if this _was_ the case, why didn't the author at least _allude_ to the idea - however false - that no one could help out?!? How did the editor not see the obvious contradiction?

More importantly, what exactly was Abaddon thinking when he was formulating this master plan of his? Was he a being colossal masochist in the vein of the old Super Friends cartoon, wherein the Riddler couldn't resist giving Batman clues about his next crime? Or did Corpulax just have an amazing sense of humor? Did he make up that story about the Alpha Legionnaire and the Hellfire Tome just to torture poor Dinalt before he killed him?

Again, all this comes down to the same issue that plagues the novel from cover to cover: the author has thrown in a bunch of concepts and angles together without ensuring that they work together. The hilarious thing about all this is that Dunn _already had_ a simple, easy plot device to make sure that Dinalt went wherever he needed him to: *the traitor that had already infiltrated the Inquisitor's ranks!*

"Uh, Inquisitor Dinalt, look at this scroll I found in the bookcase of this sorcerer we just killed... It says the Hellfire Tome can be found on Mongo Planet!"
"Great job, Brandd! News Team, assemble!"

And we haven't even gotten into all the various what if's and possibilities for failure this overly convoluted "master plan" leaves itself open to. Let's assume that it's just a bunch of *magic,* though, and that Abaddon is simply waiting for the pieces of a prophesy to fall in place, and that nothing can go wrong. The author still has an obligation to let the reader know that this is the case. At the very least, he has to _allude_ to it. He doesn't, though. He doesn't hint at anything other than the straight version offered in the novel, _which makes zero fucking sense._

Moving on.

On Pythos, Dinalt and his retinue join forces with the Catachan 183rd. "Oh, good," I thought. "I like Catachans." Well, maybe not their generic, "Rambo" look, but the overall concept is solid. Who doesn't like jungle-fighters from a Death World?

But wait a tick, what's this? A Catachan _armoured_ regiment? What, did the Departmento Munitorum make a colossal clerical error and jacked up their Founding orders? Is there also some Krieg regiment somewhere out there wondering just what the fuck they're going to do with five thousand crates of red bandanas?

Don't put too much thought in this. The 183rd are an armoured regiment because this is an Apocalypse novel and at least one Super-Heavy Tank was going to feature prominently at some point. They're Catachan for no discernible reason at all, unless it's because Dunn really wanted Pythos to be a jungle-ish Death World-ish planet as well. Mind you, they're only on Pythos because they ran out of Imperial Navy transport coupons while there. Nice bit of coincidence, eh?

I don't know if it ever occurred to C.Z. Dunn that Pythos didn't necessarily _need_ to be a jungle world. The fact that it's a jungle world is really nothing more than a novelty; it never really impacts the plot after the first couple of chapters. But if Dunn really, _really_ wanted a jungle world, did he consider that maybe he didn't need to mix and match his themes? That he could have just as easily had _two_ regiments, and that the 183rd Catachan could have been traditional jungle-fighters who helped the survivors of the armoured regiment survive Pythos after the onslaught of the Black legion?

But if a Catachan armoured regiment was a _must_ for this story, would it have killed Dunn author to include even a brief backstory as to how this unusual unit came to be? More effort was put into a single Apocalypse Datasheet article, for the 22nd Catachan Airborne Assault Group!

That's just another example of a concept that doesn't serve the plot in any meaningful way. The author makes no effort to expound on it or help it make sense. 

My next major point of frustration (frustrated amusement, in all honesty) came around Chapter Four. Earlier, it seemed as if an important role of the novel would be Corpulax unlocking the rest of the seals that somehow tied into the Hellfire Stone. The next time we see Corpulax, though, he announces that only the last seal remains. That one, *coincidentally* (wink-wink), is right under the mountain stronghold the Catachans took refuge in.

Corpulax and Abaddon then roll into a discussion about why they can't go after Olympax in force. Que my headache.

Just a couple pages ago, it was revealed to us that Colonel "Death" Strike had a little over five thousand Catachans, a "few" airworthy Valkyries and other flyers, and a Hellhammer they had just fished out of a swamp. Abaddon and Corpulax couldn't know the specifics, but what they had to have known is that Strike had led a shattered force there, and that he no longer possessed the tanks that would have made the remnants of the 183rd a viable force. The two warlords decide that Olympax is unassailable... even though the Warmaster has *thousands* of Black Legionnaires on Pandorax. Dunn is essentially inventing a reason to avoid a direct confrontation, and for what? Because, once more, he has written himself into an entirely unnecessary corner.

Because, let's face it: the idea that the Black Legion couldn't take on Olympax is a joke. That is, it's a joke if the author takes into honest consideration the themes that drive Warhammer 40k. If the Black legion can't take on Olympax, it's because the author _decides_ they can't, and for contrived reasons.

The survival of the Catachan armored elements is an equally silly proposition as written. "Death" Strike ordered his regiment's tanks to be loaded on ships and taken out to the ocean when defeat against the Black Legion was certain. Somehow, those ships escape and are never seen again for a year.

_Really?!?_

This is just another plot angle that simply wasn't thought through. _Ships don't go fast. It's hard to hide in an ocean. The Black Legion had bombers._ None of this adds up to the tanks being able to effect a successful escape. But the _tanks_ have to escape because Dunn needs them to perform a dramatic rescue later on in the novel.

Who knows, maybe the Catachans had access to "stealth ships." Or maybe Abaddon's pilots were inept. Or magic. Point is, the author doesn't even try to allude as to why the tanks were able to magically (and senselessly) get away. Either way, it's a plot angle that isn't logical and doesn't tie in well with the plot.

We see this contrived logic shortly after, during Abaddon's council with his fleet master, Malgar Irongrasp. Abaddon informs Malgar that he can only spare "several hundred" Black Legionnaires to aid in boarding assaults for the final battle against Battlefleet Demeter because "resistance is stronger than anticipated" on Pandorax.

_Huh?_

Because the remnants of a single Imperial Guard regiment is mounting an ineffective guerrilla insurgency? Through Corpulax, we know that the Black Legion have unlocked all but one of the seals. Even if the insurgency was somehow viable (and it isn't; as described, it's a joke), Abaddon no longer has to worry about "scouring" the whole damn planet. He had two remaining objectives, one of which already had been identified!

(And don't tell me the Black Legion had to stay behind to find Epimetheus. His ability to remain hidden throughout most of the novel ignores the precedent established by I don't know how many other novels, wherein the more powerful the psyker the more difficult it is for him to remain concealed from other psykers. It ignores the fact that Abaddon had a plethora of sorcerers who could have helped find the elusive Grey Knight he was after all along. Either way, the idea that the Black Legion had to run around Pythos blindly to find Epimetheus is ridiculous.)

Again, it's simply an example of the author not thinking through what he's writing to its logical conclusion. The intent is for Abaddon to sound strategic and such, but he doesn't. More on that later.

I don't really want to get into void war between the Imperial fleet and Abaddon's force again. I would, however, like to qualify my issues with Huron Blackheart being present.

Let me be clear up front: I don't have a problem with Huron Blackheart as a character. I don't even have a problem with a character like Huron Blackheart being in a novel like 'Pandorax'. My issue is with the _means_ by which Huron Blackheart was included in the story.

A character should serve a purpose in a story, and that purpose should feel genuine. What is Huron's purpose in 'Pandorax'? That he's a master of interstellar piracy is a known factor, but how does that play into Abaddon's plans? How do Abaddon's plans for Pandorax play into Huron's own ambitions? None of that is even alluded to by the author. As I mentioned earlier, you could literally replace "Huron Blackheart" with the name of any random renegade Space Marine, and it would make absolutely no difference. Huron's sole contribution to the story is name recognition... _for the sake of name recognition._

Moving on...

The amount of coincidences that this story relies on to work reaches critical mass as we get to the Dark Angels and the Grey Knights and their arrival on Pythos. Think about it, what are the odds that Draigo would call in _the Dark Angels_ to help him secure a planet guarded by _a former Fallen?_ More importantly, what are the odds that Draigo - who is well aware of the Damnation Cache, its nature, and its importance - wouldn't know that Epimetheus was its guardian... but would instantly know who Epimetheus *is* when his name is mentioned?!?

Again, we're talking about a central plot element - the involvement of the Dark Angels - being tied in by the thinnest of threads. Draigo only knowing two out of three of those elements makes next to no sense, but he *has* to not know everything, or else the whole premise of the novel unravels.

Once more, it's nothing that couldn't have been avoided with some thinking-through. I mean, the Grey Knights were going to show up regardless - Liall ensured that. If the author _specifically_ wanted the Dark Angels on Pythos as well, he simply could have had them intercept the Astropathic message that was sent to the Grey Knights. Or, hell, the Dark Angels could have been responding to the fact that an entire subsector battlefleet was getting hammered by Abaddon's forces. Either way, unless you simply don't care about glaring plot holes, the Dark Angels being on Pythos _should have been_ Draigo's worst-case scenario. The inherent problem of their presence should have been a driving force for the entire novel, but the author instead settled for an uneasy "team-up" between two Chapter Masters who clearly don't like each other, are content to disagree (for the sake of doing so, or so it would appear), and seem most at home in trading verbal jabs and/or making sure the other gets his title right.

The disagreement Azrael and Draigo had regarding how to flight the Black Legion was another frustrating point. Dunn described Azrael stuck in an impasse: the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels can't predict where the Black Legion will strike next, so he can't protect the various strongholds all over Pythos. But this impasse is, again, contrived. It's possible only because Dunn wrote a novel that doesn't take into account decades-old concepts like the distances that aerial assets can cover and the effects they can bring to bear. Nor did he take into account the logical extrapolation of that: orbital power.

The Dark Angels brought their entire Chapter and its fleet at Pythos, which included ten "capital ships" (a term that Dunn seems to use in place of "battle barge" or "battleship", since it's used to describe ships other than strike cruisers or escorts). Black Library has published a number of novels wherein Space Marines and even Rogue Traders can use the powerful sensors their ships possess to maintain an accurate tactical picture over a planet's surface and to perform surgical strikes with either troops or bombardment. Unless the author chooses to ignore these things, it's difficult to fathom how at least a dozen warships - _to include the freaking Rock_ - are unable use their sensors to keep tabs over something the size of a *small city.*

But no, the Dark Angels and the Grey Knights apparently *had* to keep all their forces on the surface, even though this makes zero sense. Space Marines can deploy from orbit in a matter of seconds (teleportation) or minutes (drop pods, Thunderhawks). Why would they force themselves to travel around by ground (hours or days) or by atmosphere (aerial flight takes much longer than flight from an orbital point directly to the surface below).

So again, we're looking at an _artificial_ challenge, one that wasn't necessary to begin with. The only benefit it provides is that it saves the author from _actually having to detail a campaign_ in a way that's both *logical* and *consistent with the genre he's writing in.* That, more than anything else about this book, bothers me. If a writer is going to write a book about war and battles, I think they have an obligation to do one of two things:

1. Do some research, so as to present an authentic product.
2. In lieu of an authentic product, figure out a way to sound *convincing.*

Dunn does neither.

The final battle in the Emerald Cave was the pinnacle of that disappointment, but within it there were two things in particular that bothered me: the lack of _scale,_ and the way the Deathwing was depicted.

The scale is lesser of those two things, but it's a solid reminder of the lazy way in which so much of this book was written. While we don't know the actual size of the Emerald Cave, where the final battle was fought, the author did describe earlier caverns as being "the sizes of small nations". The Emerald Cave itself was large enough to fit a quarter of a million warriors, a number of armored regiments, at least half a dozen Warhound Titans, and "more than a hundred" Valkyries. Despite this, right off the bat we're told of a Valkyrie that goes to hover before the Prisoner to unload its salvo.

_Why?_

If you're going to write a giant battle for Warhammer 40k, you have an obligation to write with an understanding of the technological might of the Imperium and the supernatural abilities of the daemonic. You have to figure out how you're going to balance the two. Having a gunship park itself in front of a giant daemon to fire off weapons it use hundreds of meters - if not entire kilometers - away doesn't even count as trying. It's forced drama.

But what really got on my nerves was the way the Deathwing was handled.

Why? Because 'Pandorax' is an _Apocalypse_ novel. The whole point of this book is, "Hey, here is some fiction about warriors and vehicles from so-and-so Codex, sourcebook, etc." C.Z. Dunn could have had a legitimate headache about how to approach any number of topics in this book: how Abaddon would think and act, how tank regiments fight battles, how Azrael and Draigo would interact... you name it. What should *never* have been an issue is _how the freaking Dark Angels and the Grey Knights fight._ Both of them have Codices that offer reams of information on the topic.

Given this, it's incredibly frustrating when Dunn decides to exclude concepts that define the Dark Angels - and the Deathwing specifically - and decides to exclude it in favor of his own stuff. It's even _more_ frustrating when his stuff *doesn't make sense.*

What does the Deathwing do especially well? Precision deep-striking, courtesy of teleportation. They poof in and blast the shit out of everything. Unfortunately, we are told that teleporters don't work that far underground.

_Really?_ I would say I'd lost hope at that point, but the novel was almost over.

Seriously, think about this. Again, this is an *Apocalypse* novel, and part of selling point - one might say *the* selling point - was the Dark Angels and the Grey Knights facing off against the Black Legion. What the hell is the point of writing in a certain faction in your book if you do so in a way _where they don't use any of the shit that makes them noteworthy?!?_ If you take away from the Deathwing the very thing that, well, _makes them the Deathwing,_ then why didn't you just use Chapter X and its generic First Company?

Screw it, let's accept that teleportation doesn't work and that this somehow makes sense. Whatever. You *still* can't tell me that turning Terminators into run-of-the-mill foot-sloggers makes sense. Why would they walk when they could hitch a ride on a Land Raider? Or, for that matter, a Thunderhawk... since the cave was apparently big enough for a fleet of flyers to go around.

To add insult to injury, though, guess what special Grey Knight power Draigo used for his Moment of Awesome? That's right, the Summoning - wherein he basically *magically teleports* his Grey Knight buddies to his side.

As an aside, let's ignore the fact that Draigo can't even use this power, since it's reserved for his Chapter's Librarians. We get 3-4 introductory paragraphs that explain to us how powerful the Summoning is: One Supreme Grand Master who used it went in a coma for 112 days; another battle-brother lost all his psychic powers afterwards; Brother-Captain Stern *and his entire Brotherhood* _had to take a year off_ after using that power. *Why?!?* Nowhere in the Grey Knights' Codex is the Summoning qualified as being uniquely taxing or debilitating.

Maybe it's because all three used a damn psychic power they didn't even have access to. Maybe it's because all three used a sorcerous ritual that mimics the Summoning, which is a native psychic power. That last one is the most likely, since, even though Dunn never qualifies it, he sure makes it _sound_ as if Draigo is doing something sorcerous. But why _not_ qualify it? Why _not_ write it so that the (pointless, needless) doubt (that never aids the story in any way) is eliminated? Or, for that matter, why didn't Draigo not have a Librarian - for whom the Summoning is something he could theoretically do any number of times - do his hocus pocus? Probably because that would eliminate the need to introduce the contrived drama of turning the relatively mundane (a Grey Knight Librarian using the Summoning) into the exceptional (Draigo using the Summoning at really no cost to himself). 

Back to the Deathwing for just a second, though. The reason they can't use their signature power is so that the story can support a concept that doesn't particularly aid it in any way: "Fighting... UNDERGROUND!" Aside for the introductory paragraphs that describe the gigantic caverns (they have to be big enough to support the massive army Dunn is working with) that lead into the Emerald Cave, there's hardly anything about the battle itself that has to do with fighting underground.

It's a novelty, nothing more. It has no impact on the action. The armies fight exactly how they did in two previous battles. All you get out of it is the ability to write off Deathwing Assault as something the writer might have to depict.

Anyways.

To say I didn't enjoy this novel would be an understatement. I struggled to get through it. Nonetheless, I re-read several parts of it (over and over, in some cases) because I genuinely didn't want my own bias to lead me to an unfair opinion.

What ultimately bothered me about 'Pandorax' is that it's a step back for Warhammer 40k fiction. It's not just a fun read; it's a poor read by any of the basic criteria we use to judge books.

The characters are shallow and never evolve. The plot depends on contrived concepts that are only tenuously tied in together and often contradict themselves. The setting is somewhat interesting at first glance, but ultimately hinders the plot itself. The only real theme - which I assumed to be "the cost of keeping secrets" - only exists in the periphery of the story itself, and never makes an impact until the climax itself (which is itself hindered by the fact that it was developed by action largely invisible to the reader). The style is generic and passive: the language used by the characters generally doesn't fit the setting; imagery is conveyed in broad, rushed strokes; the author often dictates interaction to the reader, rather than showing it; parts of the narrative that could have been interesting are instead shown in hindsight and in abbreviated form.

In the past six-seven years, Black Library has managed to set an admirable bar for itself. Not every novel it publishes will be a New York Times Bestseller, but we now know that this is precisely the standard that several of its authors _can_ write to. And even if that list represented a completely arbitrary standard that doesn't necessarily translate to quality, any poster here can attest to the fact that _there are some damn good books about Warhammer 40k being written these days._

That's ultimately why I react the way I do when posters opine that 'Pandorax' was a "good" book or a "fun" book. I don't want Black Library to feel that books of this caliber are a "safe choice" to generate revenue or promote some other product line (as was the case here). I want them to focus their resources and time in publishing the books we all know they're capable of. I want them to make the hard choice and tell a prospective author - who, brass tacks, I'm sure is a decent individual who should absolutely be encouraged to follow his dreams of writing - _that he's not quite there yet._

That's ultimately why I can't get behind reviews and opinions that serve as *an apology for the author,* or that seek to explain away errors the author and his editing team _should have caught to begin with._

If you read this entire rant, congratulations - and thanks for listening/reading!


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## Malus Darkblade

@Phoebus: I applaud you for having the patience to read the book to the end and provide us with such in-depth analysis.

I wanted to lambast the book (at least up to the point I read. The dinosaur-mounts should have been where I stopped) as well but I've been guilt-tripped far too many times and accused of 'not having ever praised a BL book' so props to you.

There is something clearly wrong with BL when you have the quality and depth of Pariah then see Pandorax. I constantly ask how and why does BL approve of such silly plots and bad writing but then I realized if they only relied on the Abnetts and ADBS and Wraights, BL wouldn't have much to sell.

So I can now sleep at night knowing that the garbage we've had to suffer through all these years are what allow the greats the opportunity to write about their favorite IP.


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## Phoebus

Thanks for the kind words.


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## Angel of Blood

Phoebus said:


> *Snip*


Always a pleasure to read your views on things, which as I often say, gel quite commonly with my own opinions and thoughts. So I am very much going to take all your rant on board and avoid this novel like the plague. Noice one for taking all that time and writing to point all exactly what was wrong with it, instead of just saying 'It's shit', always appreciated.


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## Reaper45

Phoebus said:


> MAIM KILL BURN


Ever consider the fact that just maybe reading a book where stuff dies is enjoyable enough.

I have a very good reason for enjoying it, fuck you that's why.


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## Phoebus

Whoa, whoa, whoa, friend.

Did I ever tell you what you should like? No, that's up to you. It's your choice. Nor did I fail to consider your criteria:



Phoebus said:


> Speaking for myself, the only way I could have felt even _neutral_ about it is if my expectations had been turned down to "I'm just hoping to see some Space Marines blow up some shit."


The fact that you find a book to be _enjoyable_ doesn't make it *good*, though. That's why in my "KILL MAIM BURN" analysis (kudos for that, by the way! :biggrin: ) I steered away from what personal preferences and instead stuck to the plethora of contradictions and logical fallacies that plague 'Pandorax'.

You like that book _despite_ its endless parade of flaws. I would much rather Black Library stick to publishing the much better-written books we know they are capable of. Don't take it personally if other people call a spade a spade or choose to reject a sub-standard product. :wink:

*EDIT:* Thanks, Angel of Blood!


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## Reaper45

Phoebus said:


> Whoa, whoa, whoa, friend.
> 
> Did I ever tell you what you should like? No, that's up to you. It's your choice. Nor did I fail to consider your criteria:
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that you find a book to be _enjoyable_ doesn't make it *good*, though. That's why in my "KILL MAIM BURN" analysis (kudos for that, by the way! :biggrin: ) I steered away from what personal preferences and instead stuck to the plethora of contradictions and logical fallacies that plague 'Pandorax'.
> 
> You like that book _despite_ its endless parade of flaws. I would much rather Black Library stick to publishing the much better-written books we know they are capable of. Don't take it personally if other people call a spade a spade or choose to reject a sub-standard product. :wink:
> 
> *EDIT:* Thanks, Angel of Blood!


Just so we're clear that wasn't meant as a personal attack, I did read your full analyze and I have no problems admitting you're right. 

What I meant by it is that books don't have to follow logic or be perfectly in tune with fluff to be a good read.

A catachan armored regiment makes sense, if you consider the fact that the alternative is a regiment made up of non death worlder's in which case the writer would have to either A, accept the fact that the regiment would be taking extremely high casualties or somehow adapted to an environment in a few years that catachan's take entire life times to survive.

Abaddon not going after the ships seems strange until you consider the situation. 

Killing everyone was not the goal of this battle, he was securing resources and softening up potential internal threats.

The inquisitor situation as well, I'm not going to claim to fully understand how they work but consider this.

They are not a unified force, each has their own agendas, perhaps they at the time assisted with the first attempt because they though it was going to benefit them. We only know the casulites that one entourage took, perhaps the others suffered worse. Perhaps a rival inquisitor wanted it for themselves.

With regards to the fortress, they were speaking around that traitor henchmen. Perhaps it was their way of condescending her.

Coupled with the fact that if they did attack and breech abaddon would have been facing epithemius too early. This making his capture less of a deal.

Keep in mind what the writer was writing this was an apocalypse taking in an entire star system. 
Most of the other books such as helreach take place in a city and a small part in orbit. It's hard to go into detail about every little thing when there's so much happening. 

Books like this have to show grim dark and terror, the only way they can do that is by having characters die, so people have to be created for this purpose. Like Mack and Chao they were there to give us people to like so when they died it would mean something.

And honestly is it really a stretch to think the DA would pull their entire chapter for a reason? At the meerest hint of the fallen the entire deathwing drops what they are doing and goes after them.

So yeah it's believable.


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## Phoebus

Reaper45 said:


> Just so we're clear that wasn't meant as a personal attack, ...


It was not taken that way. 



> What I meant by it is that books don't have to follow logic ...


I'm not just talking about logic, though. When your plot contradicts itself, when your characters are shallow and never evolve, when your dialogue is generic and clashes with the style of the setting, and so on, you're dealing with problems much greater than "Is my book logical?"



> ... or be perfectly in tune with fluff to be a good read.


Again, there's a difference between you being able to enjoy a book and that book actually being good. It's why, as I mentioned before, I tried to avoid things that come down to _taste_ and focused on those basic elements that constitute a story.

[wuote]A catachan armored regiment makes sense, if you consider the fact that the alternative is a regiment made up of non death worlder's in which case the writer would have to either A, accept the fact that the regiment would be taking extremely high casualties or somehow adapted to an environment in a few years that catachan's take entire life times to survive.[/quote]
No, actually it doesn't make sense. It's not as if the Imperium needed an armored regiment with Death World survivalist skills to go to a place like Pythos. The 183rd was in Pythos _by accident._ They were stranded there due to a lack of transports. As for everything else, feel free to re-reference my last post. I will repeat this, though: when writers for Apocalypse Datasheets make more of an effort than a novelist to explain an unusual Regiment, something's really wrong.



> Abaddon not going after the ships seems strange until you consider the situation.
> 
> Killing everyone was not the goal of this battle, he was securing resources and softening up potential internal threats.


I'm not trying to be insulting here, but this makes zero sense.

Abaddon's goals were to locate the mystery psyker guarding the Damnation Cache and to unlock the Cache itself. The only force on Pythos capable of interfering with those objectives was the 183rd Catachan. Abaddon's attack against them wasn't to "secure resources" or what have you; it was to eliminate that potential opposition.

The only weapons the 183rd had against the Black Legion were their tanks. Given this, there is no logic to be found in Abaddon deciding to let all these tanks sail off into the sunset, just as there is no logic to be found in the tanks escaping in the ocean. All this serves is to allow Dunn to re-introduce them later in the novel.

Maybe this isn't immediately apparent to a casual reader. It doesn't matter. Good books don't assume ignorance on the part of their reader, though. 'Dune' is a memorable, enduring work of science fiction because Frank Herbert didn't allow the fact that his average reader wasn't a poli-sci major or hadn't read Machiavelli's 'The Prince' to keep him from delivering riveting intrigue, power-politics, and betrayals. It's a great book because it is able to present its advanced subject matter in a way that's accessible to any reader.



> The inquisitor situation as well, I'm not going to claim to fully understand how they work but consider this. ...


What you're doing right now is acting as an apologist for the writer. You shouldn't. It's Dunn's obligation to ensure that his plot doesn't contradict itself, not yours to offer theories as to why it doesn't. 



> With regards to the fortress, they were speaking around that traitor henchmen. Perhaps it was their way of condescending her.


I'm not sure what you're referring to here.



> Coupled with the fact that if they did attack and breech abaddon would have been facing epithemius too early. This making his capture less of a deal.


Again, it's not your job to apologize for the fact that Dunn's plot falls apart too easily. It's *his* job to craft a plausible storyline that doesn't require characters to act illogically and doesn't ignore the concepts that define this setting.



> Keep in mind what the writer was writing this was an apocalypse taking in an entire star system.
> Most of the other books such as helreach take place in a city and a small part in orbit. It's hard to go into detail about every little thing when there's so much happening.


That's patently untrue. Besides, we're not talking about "every little thing". We're talking about the central conflict on Pythos and two decisions that ensure that it makes no sense.



> Books like this have to show grim dark and terror, the only way they can do that is by having characters die, so people have to be created for this purpose. Like Mack and Chao they were there to give us people to like so when they died it would mean something.


What does this have to do with my points?



> And honestly is it really a stretch to think the DA would pull their entire chapter for a reason? At the meerest hint of the fallen the entire deathwing drops what they are doing and goes after them.


I didn't say it was a stretch that the Dark Angels could field their whole Chapter. You're raising an argument I didn't make. Please re-read my post.



> So yeah it's believable.


If this is in regards to the Dark Angels showing up in force, see above. If you're talking about the novel being believable... *it's not.* _Not by a long shot._


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## pinnacle

Long time lurker, first time poster and 40K enthusiast.

Outside of the "revelation" about a certain GK, I didn't enjoy the novel.

My main issue with it is how could a founding member of the GK's be on a certain former legions "list" when all of the founding GK's where acquired and sequestered before the Battle of Terra? 

Is there a retcon, with respect to the GK's, that I am not aware of? And if so could someone point me in the right direction?


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## jasonpittman

Just finished it and loved it, damn good read it wasn't perfect but it was enjoyable.


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## Reaper45

Last bit of the book, Abaddon states that the entire purpose of the war was to get forces for the next black crusade. I don't remember the page but it's there.

The way I see it is why waste resources going after a bunch of tanks on the ocean since that wasn't his goal why would he do it?

I'm referring to the reason why they though 5000 guardsmen were to many to assault a fortress, at this point that traitor failed in a number of different ways. They were pretty much saying why do you go infiltrate that fortress and do this thing it's not worth our time.


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## Rems

Reaper45 said:


> Last bit of the book, Abaddon states that the entire purpose of the war was to get forces for the next black crusade. I don't remember the page but it's there.
> 
> The way I see it is why waste resources going after a bunch of tanks on the ocean since that wasn't his goal why would he do it?
> 
> I'm referring to the reason why they though 5000 guardsmen were to many to assault a fortress, at this point that traitor failed in a number of different ways. They were pretty much saying why do you go infiltrate that fortress and do this thing it's not worth our time.


Because it makes strategic sense, is well within Abaddon's capabilities and he's not an idiot? 

You dont just let your enemy escape with valuable military assests, not when you can easily prevent it. Ships are slow and can't hide. Abaddon had space ships and atmospheric craft aplenty, sinking a convoy of transport ships would be easy. It wouldn't require a significant expenditure of resources and wouldn't take long. It makes no sense not to stop them. 

Abaddon had thousands of Black Legionaries, that alone is a force easily capable of taking a fortress held by a mere regiment. Thousands of Space Marines can topple star systems, eliminate civilisations. One fortress is nothing. 

Abaddon destroying the tanks and taking the fortress gives him complete control of the situation. It's a strategically sound move, which wouldn't cost him much. Not doing so, when Dunn gives no valid reasons makes Abaddon look like an idiot and reeks of lazy writing. It's not a good sign if your book cant maintain logical consistency. 
@Phoebus thanks for the review. I'm of a like mind that its disappointing to see such dross put out when we know the quality elements of the Black Library stable are capable of. 40k is such a rich tapestry, its one of the deepest settings around, there's so much good writers can do with it.


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## Phoebus

Thanks for the assist, Rems!


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## DjdaForce

I wonder if ADB knows that Dunn once more cemented the Failbaddon-Meme....


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## forkmaster

Thank you Phoebus, I will definitely avoid this piece! Unfortunately Dunn haven't proved himself rather positive with his novels, and it also seems all these "Apocalypse"-stuff won't catch on as any good quality if you ram in way too much shit on too little space.


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## The Scion of Chemos

Phoebus said:


> when your characters are shallow and never evolve, [/I]


Now, I agree with all your points on this except this one.
Warhammer 40K has characters that have been angry about the same thing for 10,000 years! Shallow and never evolving is a must for those guys!

Joking aside, thanks for posting your thoughts man!


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## godking

DjdaForce said:


> I wonder if ADB knows that Dunn once more cemented the Failbaddon-Meme....


Abbadon achieved everything that HE wanted to achieve on Pandorax.


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## Phoebus

There are two parts to the "Failbaddon" meme:

1. The idea - however incorrect - that Abaddon fails a lot.
2. The - largely driven by sarcasm - reaction at the notion that Abaddon "won the objectives that really mattered to him" despite the preceding focus being on battles he lost.

_Pandorax_ falls under the latter. The Black Legion are decisively defeated in void warfare and in a number of large-scale battles and skirmishes alike, but Abaddon shrugs off those loses - and a ridiculously important prize, like a portal capable of pumping out an endless number of daemons - because he got "what he was secretly after to begin with". Except, the entire process by which he got his "real prize" was preceded by an almost comically convoluted scheme that ultimately only serves to ensure his antagonists were present on Pythos, thereby making a novel necessary.

This doesn't make Abaddon look Warmaster-ish, brilliant, or really competent at all. It undermines his character and his stated ability. People need to be careful with how they handle certain parts of the genre. Abaddon is a despicable and eminently unlikeable and unredeemable individual, but his ability should never be questioned. Any defeat he suffers should come via great sacrifice on the part of the victors


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