# No Stock for the bolters??



## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

I knew there wasn't one, but it has been kind of eating away at me lately as to why the Bolters don't have stocks.

Is there any GW source that says they don't need one? I spend enough time shooting for recreational purposes to have a general grasp of fire arms, and I couldn't fathom shooting an automatic weapon without a stock. Well there is always hip firing, but how is that remotely accurate.


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## Rotgrim (Nov 15, 2013)

It's rather funny but I understand SM s not needing them do to all the gene seed superhuman blah blah blah. At the same time why would a space ork shoota need a stock ? Idk but I'm sure it's only for style and or a blunt weapon handle if need be.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

If I remember correctly the second edition weapons compendium stated that bolters don't produce any kick so for that reason a stock isn't needed. In addition the bolters sight's link up to the HUD in the Space Marines helmet thus meaning they don't need to shoulder the weapon to get an accurate shot. Another interesting thing is apparently they fire caseless ammo so they don't technically need an ejection port but the rule of cool over rides that.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Jacobite hit all the major points. The only thing I'd add is that, even if there _was_ significant recoil (and some sources, primary literary ones, state that there is), a Space Marine's natural strength alone - never mind when augmented by power armour - would be enough to compensate for it. Beyond that, as Jacobite already stated, any benefit a stock would provide in terms of aiming (besides eliminating recoil) are trumped by the sync between a Space Marine's auto-senses and his weapon.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Not to throw a grenade in the gears, BUT...normal humans do use bolters and in the 5th ed it said that if humans used a SM bolter it would break every bone in that arm, shoulder, and ribs, unless they had a augmented arm. There have also been reference in several BL books that humans can't fire a SM bolter and even when they fire a non SM bolter the kick is pretty high.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Phoebus said:


> a Space Marine's natural strength alone - never mind when augmented by power armour - would be enough to compensate for it


Doesn't the occasional Guardsman use it? Or is that something I've just seen on the table top..


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

If I'm not mistaken only the Sisters of Battle use Boltguns outside of the Astartes. Guard use bolt pistols but never boltguns.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

SoL Berzerker said:


> boltguns.


Sigh and once again I get ignored.

Begs to differ.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440247a&prodId=prod1900033
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440247a&prodId=prod40004a

That's not even mentioning BL books.
Fire Caste, Space Marine (albeit as old as sin) tech gang was using bolters, Imperial Guard Omnibus 1, Hammer of the Emperor(IG Omnibus 2)

EDIT: Ok from now on I'm making all my words orange.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

ntaw said:


> Doesn't the occasional Guardsman use it? Or is that something I've just seen on the table top..


Good point. I still have those 2nd edition possibly Rogue Trader IG sergeants that had bolters as standard.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTQ5MlgxNDMy/z/HC4AAMXQbjxRBXov/$T2eC16RHJG!E9nm3qWDNBRB(ouG5yw~~60_35.JPG

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Warhammer-Imperial-Guard-officer-w-Heavy-bolter-makes-great-Sgt-Harker-metal-/00/s/MTE1MlgxNTM2/z/q04AAOxy~ilSSPGK/$(KGrHqF,!qcFJDEs9N2zBSSPGKI+r!~~60_35.JPG

(I use this one as Marbo, have just replaced bolter with assaasins pistol, and green stuffed it)

These ones. 2nd edition. 

Thought this has probably been retconned...


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

locustgate said:


> Sigh and once again I get ignored.
> 
> Begs to differ.
> http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440247a&prodId=prod1900033
> ...


lol good idea cos I completey missed that.


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## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

locustgate said:


> Sigh and once again I get ignored.
> 
> Begs to differ.
> http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/ca...Id=prod1900033
> ...


Those aren't normal Guardsmen sir, those are Catachans :grin:

The basic principle of a bolt round is a small traditional charge (like our guns of today use) that's only strong enough to push the round out of the barrel, where the bolt will then basically become a missile. This might not produce enough kick back, but then again it's rather muddled if so many sources contradict each other. As for Guardsmen aiming them, maybe they have augmented eyes that act like Space Marie visors.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Ddraig Cymry said:


> stuff


The books reference non catachans using bolters.

EDIT: Did a quick search boltguns, legally obtained, are reserved for high ranking COs, Platoon commander and up, along with commissars. Storm troopers also can obtain boltguns enmass


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## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

locustgate said:


> The books reference non catachans using bolters.
> 
> EDIT: Did a quick search boltguns, legally obtained, are reserved for high ranking COs, Platoon commander and up, along with commissars. Storm troopers also can obtain boltguns enmass


It was just a joke haha I think it's rather difficult to debate with so may written sources contradicting others in regards to things like aiming and recoil. Guardsmen could just be using smaller versions of boltguns that fire smaller calibers of bolt rounds. Then again maybe there's just been no general consensus on this matter amongst all the Black Library writers and as such we're left with this mess.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Ddraig Cymry said:


> .......again


I'll restate what I said on page 1, 5th ed Imperial Guard do not use SM bolters as in multiple sources the best case the Guardsmen will dislocate his arm and worst case he will shatter his arm shoulder and anything the gun hits. Therefore they use a smaller scale bolter.

Despite the smaller size the IG bolter still has hell of a kick.

And if I have to restate one more emperor damned thing I'm killing a puppy.


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## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

Right, sorry I didn't see your response earlier. This would also explain how units like Warrior Acolytes could use them effectively, even without power armor.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Ddraig Cymry said:


> Guardsmen could just be using smaller versions of boltguns that fire smaller calibers of bolt rounds.


We know that all bolt-rounds (whether made for Astartes or humans) have the same _caliber_. We also know that the rounds made for human botlguns are scaled down for humans. So human bolt-rounds are either shorter, less dense, or contain less propellant charge...or some combination of the three.



locustgate said:


> Platoon commanders


Dunno if they're really offered to lowly lieutenants as a general rule of thumb. 



locustgate said:


> Storm troopers also can obtain boltguns enmass


Outside of the table top...source?



locustgate said:


> the best case the Guardsmen will dislocate his arm and worst case he will shatter his arm shoulder and anything the gun hits.


Which novel does it say this?

I mean we've seen Bragg and Harker run around with a heavy bolter. They're hardly atypical guardsman, but they fire those weapons from a braced standing position. If they can fire a heavy bolter, I'd suppose a sturdy, well-trained man could fire a SM bolter, assuming he could heft it in the first place.

The recoil is purposely designed to be minimal.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Jacobite said:


> If I remember correctly the second edition weapons compendium stated that bolters don't produce any kick so for that reason a stock isn't needed. In addition the bolters sight's link up to the HUD in the Space Marines helmet thus meaning they don't need to shoulder the weapon to get an accurate shot. Another interesting thing is apparently they fire caseless ammo so they don't technically need an ejection port but the rule of cool over rides that.


Caseless weapons do require an ejection port in case a round misfires.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

hailene said:


> lieutenants Outside of the table top...source? Which novel does it say this?


.

The Background fluff of IG Codexes....codexie 2nd-5th edition. "Have access to advance weapons including blah blah, bolt weapons.' Page 96 IG Codex 5th edition

The Boltgun, also commonly referred to as the Bolter, is the standard weapon of the Adeptus Astartes and Adepta Sororitas. A .75 caliber weapon, the Boltgun fires a self-propelled explosive 'bolt' which explodes with devastating effect once it has penetrated its target, effectively blowing it apart from the inside. Finely hand-crafted by Space Marine Forges or the Adeptus Mechanicus, Boltguns are heavy, sturdy weapons with a powerful recoil normal humans would find difficult to handle. Index Astartes III.

"The weight of each weapon would require most humans to use a supporting brace, with hand-grips larger than any normal human could manage. However, even if a normal human were to fire the boltgun, the resulting recoil would rip their arm from its socket. Normal humans found to be in possession of even a single Astartes bolt round, much less a boltgun, can expect a swift justice for their crimes" Dark Heresy: Inquisitorial Handbook.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

hailene said:


> We know that all bolt-rounds (whether made for Astartes or humans) have the same _caliber_. We also know that the rounds made for human botlguns are scaled down for humans. So human bolt-rounds are either shorter, less dense, or contain less propellant charge...or some combination of the three.


My bet, given that both bolters have approximately the same killing power (table top at least), would be that 'human' model bolters have less initial charge than Astartes ones. Space Marines are designed to operate in close so its important that their bolters are fully effective right out of the barrel, requiring (I'd assume for such a large bullet) quite a substantial charge and thus arm shattering recoil. Regular humans on the other hand don't really like to fight that close so sacrificing up-close killing power for reduced recoil, with no loss in ranged killing power, seems like a good call.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

locustgate said:


> Page 96 IG Codex 5th edition


Page 96 is the non-fluffy rules section. Could you cite the fluffy section citation?



locustgate said:


> Index Astartes III.


Could you give me a page here, too? Or at least under which Legion this is under?



locustgate said:


> Dark Heresy: Inquisitorial Handbook.


I did find this one. Well, thanks for the source.

It's interesting since the whole concept of a gyro-jet is to avoid recoil.

We know that a human can fire an Astartes bolt-pistol. Strange that a boltgun would dislocate a person's arms. I wonder if it's because of improper grip and inability to brace the shot?

Any shooters on the forum know if an improperly braced and gripped weapon could dislocate shoulders?


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## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

hailene said:


> We know that a human can fire an Astartes bolt-pistol. Strange that a boltgun would dislocate a person's arms. I wonder if it's because of improper grip and inability to brace the shot?
> 
> Any shooters on the forum know if an improperly braced and gripped weapon could dislocate shoulders?


To answer your second question, absolutely. Firing any gun produces more kick than what's commonly portrayed in popular media. Even a 'mid-sized' round like a 5.56 has the potential to severely hurt the wielder if improperly held and fired. A 7.62 sized round kicks hard, no matter what stock you give the damn thing. I've met with people who've been drunk and shooting (a poor combination) and literally broke their damn hand when they thought shooting a .45 long colt revolver with one hand hand was a smart idea.










This is a bolter round. The dark grey thing at it's base is a percussion cap, that's the only thing that is activated inside the gun. It's only strong enough (or at least only NEEDS to be strong enough) to push the round just outside of the barrel. Once the round exits the barrel then it basically becomes an unguided (or guided, depending on the ammunition used) rocket, with a solid fuel charge activating and propelling it towards the target. The reason the rocket aspect doesn't just activate when the round is initially fired is because the pressure that would cause inside the barrel would probably damage the bolter and it's wielder. This is why I don't see it as unbelievable to imagine normal humans being able to carry and effectively fire a bolter that has been physically scaled down to accommodate a shooter who isn't Astartes sized, the charge would only have to be strong enough to get the bolt round out of the barrel (which I really can't see being more than 16 or 18 inches), and that's all the shooter would have to accommodate.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

hailene said:


> Stuff


Page 96 says page 46. Page 58

[/quote=ddraig cymry][/quote]The funny thing is that during the cold war they tried to make a rocket pistol, but the problem they encountered was that the rocket didn't hav enough power to leave the barrel.


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## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

locustgate said:


> The funny thing is that during the cold war they tried to make a rocket pistol, but the problem they encountered was that the rocket didn't hav enough power to leave the barrel.


Really? What side tried using it? Because at first it sounds like a stereotypical Russian idea, then I remember America tried using bats as firebombs against the Japanese in WWII and I'm reminded stupidity knows no nationality haha


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Ddraig Cymry said:


> To answer your second question, absolutely


So it sounds more like most humans can't hold the bolter properly to shoot it thereby dislocating their arms...at least potentially. There's enough room in the text to support the idea that humans simply can't handle the recoil, period.

I've actually found an example of an unpowered armored human using a bolter. There's an Inqusuitor from _The Emperor's Gift_ that uses a full Astartes bolter. Apparently the main issue with the bolter is weight.

"The weapon, so monstrous in delicate human hands, was rendered usable by a streak of thumbnail-sized suspensors attached to the stock. The rare antigravitic coins – three tiny thimbles of bronze – buoyed the weapon by countering its *weight*."

It seems weight is the confounding issue.

Not that it doesn't say recoil. 



locustgate said:


> Page 96 says page 46. Page 58


I'm still confused. Page 46 is indeed the Stormtrooper's page...but it makes no mention of bolters. 58 is Pask?


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

They used them in Vietnam with very little success. The gun itself was lower in weight than a 1911 but when the round left the barrel it was travelling at a fairly low velocity. At 30 feet it had picked up speed to about 1250 fps and continued to climb very little more if any at all. It was fairly accurate though. No exploding tip sadly.


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## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

hailene said:


> So it sounds more like most humans can't hold the bolter properly to shoot it thereby dislocating their arms...at least potentially. There's enough room in the text to support the idea that humans simply can't handle the recoil, period.


That's not what I meant. That 'To answer your second question, absolutely.' was to answer you asking if it were possible for someone to be harmed by improperly holding and firing any firearm. If you kept reading my post you'd have seen I actually say 'This is why I don't see it as unbelievable to imagine normal humans being able to carry and effectively fire a bolter that has been physically scaled down to accommodate a shooter who isn't Astartes sized'.


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

The old bolter models had a stock. Problem was, you had to cut it off to get it to fit on the model, lol. Realistically, the Space Marines are ridiculously large, ridiculously strong, and their suits are servo-assisted. The stock is somewhat irrelevant to them since their weapons are slaved to imaging displays (this kids, is why your Space Marines need helmets) so they aren't trying to achieve a proper sight alignment or sight picture since we assume the weapon is telling them where it is pointed and calculating variables like range, temperature, and air density when it places the reticle.

For the Guardsmen and Scouts, they probably need stocks, because even without the issue of recoil, being able to hold the weapon steady and compensate for natural body movement _prior_ to firing is important. But this is where the rule of cool takes over.


And remember, these weapon models and artwork are being made by guys who don't actually know, or care, anything about real shooting or warfare.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Ddraig Cymry said:


> America


You had to ask. Remember the old story about the U.S. spending millions to try to make pens work in space, while the Russians used pencils.










Ammo in top right


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Ddraig Cymry said:


> This is why I don't see it as unbelievable to imagine normal humans being able to carry and effectively fire a bolter that has been physically scaled down to accommodate a shooter who isn't Astartes sized


Okay...that's an interesting note.

But Locust and I have been talking whether or not humans can use Astartes sized bolters (which they normally can't). And then why they are unable to.

I don't think anyone has any questions on whether or not a human can used a bolter resized or otherwise remade in order to accommodate a human frame since there is ample evidence of humans using human-sized bolters everywhere.



locustgate said:


> You had to ask. Remember the old story about the U.S. spending millions to try to make pens work in space, while the Russians used pencils.


That's an urban legend. Americans also used mechanical pencils in space. Graphite has the annoying properties of breaking apart and getting into things. An entrepreneur did eventually independently make a "space pen" and offer it to NASA.

NASA itself only paid a few dollars per a pen.


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## Ddraig Cymry (Dec 30, 2012)

locustgate said:


> You had to ask. Remember the old story about the U.S. spending millions to try to make pens work in space, while the Russians used pencils.


Looks interesting. Funny story about the pen thing, pencil's create shavings and graphite dust, which would be really harmful to space shuttle systems. Normal pens would't work well in space either, so the Fisher Pen Company developed the pen on it's own money, then sold the pens to NASA at a cost of $6 a pen. And only a few years after NASA the Soviets started using them too.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Veteran Sergeant said:


> The old bolter models had a stock. Problem was, you had to cut it off to get it to fit on the model, lol. Realistically, the Space Marines are ridiculously large, ridiculously strong, and their suits are servo-assisted. The stock is somewhat irrelevant to them since their weapons are slaved to imaging displays (this kids, is why your Space Marines need helmets) so they aren't trying to achieve a proper sight alignment or sight picture since we assume the weapon is telling them where it is pointed and calculating variables like range, temperature, and air density when it places the reticle.
> 
> For the Guardsmen and Scouts, they probably need stocks, because even without the issue of recoil, being able to hold the weapon steady and compensate for natural body movement _prior_ to firing is important. But this is where the rule of cool takes over.
> 
> ...


Really? Then care to explain why it is that only bolters, shootas and gauss weapons are designed without stocks?

Perhaps because those three factions don't require stocks for accuracy, or couldn't care less about them.

Finally bolters are not fully auto weapons.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> fully auto weapons.


It's kind of murky, the standard bolter says it only has single and 3 shot, but many variations, snipers, say they don't have fully auto like the standard bolter. And some SM books mention them firing full auto.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

locustgate said:


> It's kind of murky, the standard bolter says it only has single and 3 shot, but many variations, snipers, say they don't have fully auto like the standard bolter. And some SM books mention them firing full auto.


To which books are you referring? 

I've read most of the space marine battles and I don't recall them ever firing full auto.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> stuff


Souldrinkers.


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

Reaper45 said:


> Really? Then care to explain why it is that only bolters, shootas and gauss weapons are designed without stocks?
> 
> Perhaps because those three factions don't require stocks for accuracy, or couldn't care less about them.
> 
> Finally bolters are not fully auto weapons.


Please explain your post, because in context with quoting me, what you just said makes zero sense and has no relevance to what I said.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Veteran Sergeant said:


> Please explain your post, because in context with quoting me, what you just said makes zero sense and has no relevance to what I said.


I highlighted the important part.



Veteran Sergeant said:


> The old bolter models had a stock. Problem was, you had to cut it off to get it to fit on the model, lol. Realistically, the Space Marines are ridiculously large, ridiculously strong, and their suits are servo-assisted. The stock is somewhat irrelevant to them since their weapons are slaved to imaging displays (this kids, is why your Space Marines need helmets) so they aren't trying to achieve a proper sight alignment or sight picture since we assume the weapon is telling them where it is pointed and calculating variables like range, temperature, and air density when it places the reticle.
> 
> For the Guardsmen and Scouts, they probably need stocks, because even without the issue of recoil, being able to hold the weapon steady and compensate for natural body movement _prior_ to firing is important. But this is where the rule of cool takes over.
> 
> ...


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Reaper45 said:


> Really? Then care to explain why it is that only bolters, shootas and gauss weapons are designed without stocks?


You missed out melta guns, grav guns, Volkite Weapons and hellguns/hotshot lasguns.

Guns in 40K generally follow the rule of cool. And I challenge anybody to find a way of making one of the new SM bolters with a stock work with those shoulder pads.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Jacobite said:


> You missed out melta guns, grav guns, Volkite Weapons and hellguns/hotshot lasguns.


Also don't forget that some shootas do have stocks.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Honestly, Jacobite has summed it up best. It comes down to Rule of Cool, not logic.

For the Space Marine boltgun to need to be significantly larger than the model issued to Guardsmen, etc., it would have to be for a reason. Caliber would be the obvious culprit, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Range would be another, much like the M249 squad automatic weapon has a longer barrel and overall dimensions than the M4 carbine, despite the fact that the two fire the same round. Unfortunately, on the game side the two weapons have the same range as well.

So why is the Space Marine boltgun as much as 25% larger (I'm guesstimating; Space Marines are about 25% taller than a reasonably tall unaugmented human, ergo...) than the model issued to Guardsmen? And why does it have so much more kick? Frankly, unless an author proposes that the Adeptus Astartes model has greater range or what have you, it's simply Rule of Cool.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Jacobite said:


> You missed out melta guns, grav guns, Volkite Weapons and hellguns/hotshot lasguns.
> 
> Guns in 40K generally follow the rule of cool. And I challenge anybody to find a way of making one of the new SM bolters with a stock work with those shoulder pads.


Hellguns have collapsible stocks.
Aren't grav and volkite weapons used only by astartes?

I do believe I have seen melta models that do in fact have stocks.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Reaper45 said:


> Hellguns have collapsible stocks.
> Aren't grav and volkite weapons used only by astartes?
> 
> I do believe I have seen melta models that do in fact have stocks.


Hellguns do? Thats news to me. It's also surprising seeing as the current standard one is gyro stabilised according to the 40kwiki. None of the Cadian ones have stocks but that's probably because like the bolters it's hard to make the sculpt work. 

Volkite weapons were a Pre Space Marine weapon so no I don't think so. Could be wrong though. 

The only Melta weapons I've seen with stocks is the old metal (now resin) SM biker with one and I think one of the old metal Catachans. All the art work I've seen of them is stock less and all the plastic ones I've seen are as well. Again rule of cool in a sci if world used to justify anything.

Oh yea and Eldar Shurikan catapults don't have stocks either.


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