# Ward Explains the Necron/Blood Angel Alliance



## Lord of the Night

We all know this as a very mixed piece of lore. Some like it and most hate it for what appears to be vast inaccuracy on the Necrons and the Blood Angels. And of course it was written by Matt Ward who has many detractors.

But now he has given us an explanation, in the form of a new Necron unit named the Triarch Praetorian.



Yakface said:


> Triarch Ptaetorians: These used to be effectively the 'police' (my term) of the main Necron ruler (the last of which was the Silent King) to help enforce his will onto the Lords of the Empire. They are known to respect great warriors and honor valor and have sometimes ordered Necron Overlords to stop attacking a foe they deemed worthy of respect (much to the Lord's chagrin). They are Jump Infantry with a 6" AP2 S5 weapon. They can swap that out for Void Blades (a weapon with Rending and the same Entriopic ability that Scarabs have) and Particle Casters (a pistol weapon). No transport option.


So apparently these Triarchs are the reason the Necrons didn't immediately turn on the Blood Angels and reap them. The Triarchs must have found them to be honourable foes worthy of respect, and ordered the Silent King to show them the respect of not attacking them just after they banded together.

Interesting to say the very least. It certainly does give a plausible explanation, and since we don't know anything about the new Necrons except that from this we can extrapolate honour means something to them, it can't really be said its inaccurate anymore.

Thoughts?


Lord of the Night


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## Doelago

Sounds reasonable.


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## gally912

I resent the notion that a necron lord could show "chagrin", or be overruled by troops he is in command of.


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## Malus Darkblade

But Necrons as a whole are anti-life. 

I am sure during throughout their long existence they have encountered races that posed a challenge to them and I am quite sure they did not spare them. 

Or perhaps they did which is why several xenos races are still alive?


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## Rems

Oh joy, yet more evidence the necrons are now tomb kings in space, hooray. /sarcasm.

Sadly it still doesn't make much sense nor fit the necron's theme. The necrons have been this eerie, implacable force that suddenly appears, can not be bargained with and is unstoppable. They exist to extinguish the hated living who mock them with continued biological life. Their sentience and free will is gone, only a dimly rememberd hatred animates them. 

Well now it seems we can throw all that out the window. The necrons parley now. The lords, previously the only near sentient necrons, can be overruled by what should be mere cogs in the machine. Why would a race previously involved in a millennia long, genocidal war value notions like honour? The necrons aren't some ancient, noble race with a long marital tradition. They're the diminished remnants of a hateful civilisation that would rather sacrifice their very being and existence and embark on a genocidal war against life than accept their lot. They are the logical, relentless machine, they don't have emotions and whims, respect for others.


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## Lubacca

I think they're trying to pave the way for Chaos to be the Big Bad of 40k again. With the Nids now having some weaknesses and now the Necrons getting an overhaul...


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## Lord of the Night

gally912 said:


> I resent the notion that a necron lord could show "chagrin", or be overruled by troops he is in command of.


Well actually the overuling part does have some basis in sense.

Apparently Necrons can mentally 'degrade' over time and become ravening monsters, incapable of thought, the ability to take orders or even sanity. The Triarchs role is likely to act as the enforcers of their Lord, but also to watch him and keep their eyes peeled for signs of degradation. Because a degraded Lord could make a foolish move in his insanity that could cost them victory, and the Triarchs role would be to overrule him and make sure that only the correct steps are taken, not the wrong ones.




Rems said:


> Oh joy, yet more evidence the necrons are now tomb kings in space, hooray. /sarcasm.
> 
> Sadly it still doesn't make much sense nor fit the necron's theme. The necrons have been this eerie, implacable force that suddenly appears, can not be bargained with and is unstoppable. They exist to extinguish the hated living who mock them with continued biological life. Their sentience and free will is gone, only a dimly rememberd hatred animates them.
> 
> Well now it seems we can throw all that out the window. The necrons parley now. The lords, previously the only near sentient necrons, can be overruled by what should be mere cogs in the machine. Why would a race previously involved in a millennia long, genocidal war value notions like honour? The necrons aren't some ancient, noble race with a long marital tradition. They're the diminished remnants of a hateful civilisation that would rather sacrifice their very being and existence and embark on a genocidal war against life than accept their lot. They are the logical, relentless machine, they don't have emotions and whims, respect for others.


That is what they are yes but frankly I think that they are still that. In _Fall of Damnos_ the Necrons are based somewhat on the new information, and they still come across as the eerie unstoppable force that you said. They advance relentlessly into enemy fire, their guns still strip the flesh and soul from their targets and they are still terrifying to fight. The only difference is now they have some personality to go with it.

There is a scene when Iulus Fennion, an Ultramarines Sergeant, grapples with a Necron Immortal. It picks him up and says "You are going to die mortal." The older Necrons never spoke at all but that one line is very terrifying, never speaking at all just makes them seem distant, but the few lines the Necrons actually give in the novel make them seem far more alien and horrifying as it really gives an insight into their mindset. But no more than the ultimatum to the armies of Damnos, "Surrender and die."

As for valuing honour, we don't know why. Maybe they are trying to hold onto a last gasp of who they used to be as a way to deny that they, as a race are slowly degrading into a fate worse than death, which is what they were trying to escape in the first place.


Lord of the Night


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## Malus Darkblade

It's as if the Ctan being in control maintained the Necron's evil image but now with them getting watered down, the Necrons are becoming alien samurai.

@LoTn: FoD was terrible imo. The Necrons were basically Dark Eldar in that book.


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## MontytheMighty

doesn't sound that ridiculous to me


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## normtheunsavoury

If it is a push towards making Chaos the bigger threat again then it's a good thing IMO. As a long time Chaos fan it's been tough watching them become the pathetic emo types they are now. I don't know masses about the Necrons but to me this does seem to be watering them down a bit. Being silent, relentless inhuman killing machines is more scary to me than what they seem to be becoming.


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## jaysen

It does nothing to explain why the Blood Angels did not destroy the Necrons once the Tyranid were defeated. Blood Angels abhore xenos of all type and do not suffer them to live. Regardless of having a common foe, they would not just let them go.


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## Malus Darkblade

Chaos has always been the biggest threat and never has it become secondary to any other threat. So I'm not sure what you mean.



jaysen said:


> It does nothing to explain why the Blood Angels did not destroy the Necrons once the Tyranid were defeated. Blood Angels abhore xenos of all type and do not suffer them to live. Regardless of having a common foe, they would not just let them go.



They were outnumbered, fatigued and probably low on ammo. Xenophoiba < survival.


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## normtheunsavoury

Malus Darkblade said:


> Chaos has always been the biggest threat and never has it become secondary to any other threat. So I'm not sure what you mean.


Chaos may still be the biggest threat but with the focus of late being more on the Necron and Tyranid threat they have been pushed to the sidelines. 
The Tyranids are moving in, an unstoppable force of such huge numbers that all life in the galaxy is under threat, the Necrons are waking up on Tomb Worlds that could be anywhere including Mars, right at the heart of the Imperium. The CSM are struggling to fight their way past Cadia and are no real threat to the Imperium until they can break through in significant numbers.


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## Angelofdeath690

Im not very vocal about things normally but this article has always been something that bothered me. I could come up with reasons why this 'event' happened but in the end it seemed against the Necrons way of 'against life' that they had for so long.

As for this 'explanation' I guess in a way if you want to move the necrons to become some form of honor holding destroyers then it works well. I will question tho a piece of fluff where the Necrons met the Tau who are usually pretty honorable and basically wiped them out when they met even when the Tau tried to parlay with them in peace first. I guess since its before this 'change' maybe there were non of those guys to reign in the lord then? Just feels like its trying to come up with a way to justify changing things. 

In the end to me it seems odd for such a group to exist and do that to their leaders who pretty much run the show. I did think the reasoning of the deterioration could play a part but i hadn't read those books yet where it shows the Necrons deteriorating.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

Lord of the Night said:


> Well actually the overuling part does have some basis in sense.
> 
> Apparently Necrons can mentally 'degrade' over time and become ravening monsters, incapable of thought, the ability to take orders or even sanity. The Triarchs role is likely to act as the enforcers of their Lord, but also to watch him and keep their eyes peeled for signs of degradation. Because a degraded Lord could make a foolish move in his insanity that could cost them victory, and the Triarchs role would be to overrule him and make sure that only the correct steps are taken, not the wrong ones.
> 
> To me, that sounds like a whole heap of nonsense. Of course they mentally deteriate, they are machines animated by a continually more distant sense of their former selves.
> But their deteriation isn't that of a maddening mind but a relenstless numbing of the feelings thoughts and senses they once possessed. All that lingers are embittered souls who cares nothing except for the slaughter of their ancient enemies and the pathetic upstars, whose mere existence are an open mockery of their lifeless state.
> 
> So to me, this sounds like Ward, yet again, retconning fluff to make his bullshit more believable.
> 
> 
> 
> That is what they are yes but frankly I think that they are still that. In _Fall of Damnos_ the Necrons are based somewhat on the new information, and they still come across as the eerie unstoppable force that you said. They advance relentlessly into enemy fire, their guns still strip the flesh and soul from their targets and they are still terrifying to fight. The only difference is now they have some personality to go with it.
> Well, since their personality is based around that, they didn't really lack it in the first place. The only reason think the necrons lack personality is because the amount of fluff on them is abysmal.
> But to me, this just enforces their sense of mystery. Their shouldn't be too much fluff about their origins and inner workings because then they would lose their sense of mystigue.
> 
> There is a scene when Iulus Fennion, an Ultramarines Sergeant, grapples with a Necron Immortal. It picks him up and says "You are going to die mortal." The older Necrons never spoke at all but that one line is very terrifying, never speaking at all just makes them seem distant, but the few lines the Necrons actually give in the novel make them seem far more alien and horrifying as it really gives an insight into their mindset. But no more than the ultimatum to the armies of Damnos, "Surrender and die."
> 
> Why are clichéd threats and one liners more threatening than absolute silence.
> I think the necrons seem far more intimidating when they don't speak at all. Because they don't need to. If you know anything about them you already know what they would say. And because they don't, they appear more eerie and resolute.
> 
> As for valuing honour, we don't know why. Maybe they are trying to hold onto a last gasp of who they used to be as a way to deny that they, as a race are slowly degrading into a fate worse than death, which is what they were trying to escape in the first place.
> 
> Or maybe they were just really super duper awesome fighters back when they were alive, like KALDOR DRAIGO, and they could beat everybody and everyone, like KALDOR DRAIGO, and now when they find someone who can but up a really cool and testosterone-soaked fight, they salute them for being super awesome, like KALDOR DRAIGO, so they cast some measure of the respect they hold for KALDOR DRAIGO on them and let them live.
> 
> Lord of the Night


Or some other obviously Matt Ward written explanation would work just as well.
In case anybody didn't get it, I'm not buying this as a genuinely acceptable explanation for anything.


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## Khorne's Fist

The only good thing about the _Fall of Damnos_ was the insight into the various Necron sects and how the hierarchy works. It also helped explained that every time a necron is destroyed and then gets brought back it loses some of it's sense of self. 

This would help explain how the higher ranked Necrons might hold on to a decent level of sentience, as they are powerful enough to have avoided being destroyed, were as the normal warrior may have gone through it thousands of times, and thus have become mindless, needing direction from a superior. 

If these preatorians do exist in the new codex as powerful beings, maybe they have managed to hold on to a superior level of sentience, even more so than a lord, but at the same time they are supposed to be enforcers of a race that despise biological life in all it's forms. If anything they sound like commissars for Necrons, and letting anything survive seems something that they should punish, not encourage.


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## hailene

God damn, I hate when they try to add personality to these soulless entities. They did it in Star Trek by adding the Borg queen and now they're doing it to WH40k.

Oh, the Tyranids are a swarm of ravenous beasts! But they have a special uber-leaderl This leader is special because he's extra smart and is knowledgeable. Wait? Hive-entity you say? Every thing is controlled by a single force? Doesn't that mean all intelligent beings have the same knowledge at hand? Apparently not.

Now this stuff with the Necrons, too. I'm sure we'll be seeing belligerent/friendly supernovas, right?


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## Smokes

That Flayed One over there just wants to cuddle...


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## Phoebus

Draigo doesn't bother me one bit, but I have to admit that the Necron-Blood Angel alliance is simply too difficult to explain or justify. Giving an answer that sounds like a new product to sell makes it even worse, IMHO.

They errata things all the time; I don't see why the 5E Codex: Blood Angels Errata can't include a statement like "Pg 16, under "The Gehenna Campaign", replace all text after "The stalemate is broken only when a Tyranid splinter fleet enters orbit..." with "leading all three armies to enter into a frenetic blood-bath of man, machine, and alien that shifts from battlefield to battlefield, the planet's surface to its orbit, and the hive ships themselves. The Tyranids are undone by the efforts of both the Blood Angels and Necrons, for the latter wish to reap the life energies of the world for themselves. Before the Necrons can turn on the battleworn sons of Sanguinius, however, relief forces of the Imperium arrive. This forces the unholy machine-xenos to flee to the darkness whence they came."

Or something like that.

Necrons are committed to reaping the life of the galaxy. Where does "respect for a worthy foe" come into play? What, were the Triarchs going to let Dante and his buddies live after all other life was extinguished? Of course not.


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## Harriticus

Oh wow, that's an awful piece of Fluff. Necrons should be an emotionless, cold, unstoppable Machine Army to harvest all life for their C'tan masters. Not honorable warriors who violate orders from their superiors and spare those that earn their "respect"


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## Grimskul25

So much for the cold, calculating, killing machines. Ward is going to make them misunderstood toasters that only want to find true friendship but keep accidentally de-atomizing them when they give happy hugs (or fileting them in terms of flayed ones).


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## Black Steel Feathers

Just one word:

FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU...x10 to the power of thirteen.

And I don't even play Necrons.


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## General-jwj

There is no possible explanation in the whole of reality that could legitimise that piece of fluff as far as I'm concerned.


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## Wusword77

Love it. The Necrons are getting a update so they are more then just old machines that wake up and kill all life in the universe because that's their program and people think the NEW fluff is lame?

:laugh:

The fact is that the quoted fluff (that we are assuming is from the codex) doesn't mention ANYTHING about the Blood Angels, so I'm not taking this as the absolute source on the subject.

Assuming that the quoted fluff was the actual reason behind letting the Angels live, I find it weak at best.


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## Machiavellismx

I think the cold, unrelenting advance of implacable killing machines is much, MUCH better than the current idea. Yes they are still killers, but with some semblance of honour? No. 

These are the Necrons. The Tech-priests cant figure out their technology. They are shrouded in mystery, and cannot be bought, reasoned or bargained with. They exist to wipe out all life, honourable or not. So what, they're going to assault a world but let some live because they fought well? Give me a break. When I was first told about the Necrons my mate called them an army of Arnie's from the Terminator, but more badass. Now they've been nerfed into these semi-orange semi-honourable force.

The fact the Necron overlord can speak does add semblance to a command structure though, as they are the semi-intelligent ones while the rest are man-machine slaves. The ones who dont think, simply obey, and that is why they relentless advance into enemy fire. When the Lord grabs the mortal and says "you are going to die" that could work. The last words the guy hears from this cold, killing machine that has a spark of intelligence left, enough to feel hatred and know the effect those last words will have.

Whatever the new fluff is, my force is going to be these cold emotionless killers. And they will purge all life for the Nightbringer, even that of these semi-honourable Necrons, who will be hated for even the more for betraying their own kind.


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## jaysen

The idea is that the necrons attempt to destroy all incursions of the warp into the materium, to include most forms of sentient life. It's not just mindless slaughter. There's a definite purpose, destroy any influence the warp has over the materium and bring the universe back to its original state.


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## Serpion5

Wow. The amount of whingeing on this topic is staggering. 

FFS people get over it. I for one am fucking overjoyed that the necrons are getting options now. The silent horde of killer robots routine got old really fast and the complete lack of options we had to field was irritating. 

As was the lack of viable non metallic paint schemes. 

And the lack of competitive list builds...

The lack of respect you`d receive at a tournament. 

The lack of love from BL and FW. 


All of that has changed people! We has a new codex and I for one will be grateful for this new tome of Deathly goodness! 



But tell you what, if you really want to be a fucking purist about what necrons SHOULD be, then keep playing with the old codex. 

I dare you. :threaten:


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## LukeValantine

Necron are being updated. Long story short they are also being rewritten, which is good considering that they had about as much flair and personality as a sack of space potatoes. I doubt that ward wrote the BA codex with the understanding given by the now apparently finished necron codex. However I suppose it is slightly possible that part of the reason for the odd story in the BA codex was they were already reworking the necrons.


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## bitsandkits

now come on luke we should be so negative about the humble space potato, with a little imagination they can become a banquet, you can chip them,fry they,bake them,cover them with squat cream and space garlic mmmmm space potato the food you can eat between battles


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## deathbringer

Serpion5 said:


> Wow. The amount of whingeing on this topic is staggering.
> 
> FFS people get over it. I for one am fucking overjoyed that the necrons are getting options now. The silent horde of killer robots routine got old really fast and the complete lack of options we had to field was irritating.


on the topic itself fail

with regards to the necron codex and a more variant flavour of options i dont think anyone is complaining about that

your right the codex was dull lacked variety and options but you can give a codex options without detracting from the established story that necrons are undead killing machines desperate to bring an end to all life.

its ward covering his ass for a silly story, which to my mind does not work.


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## Aramoro

This stuff all sounds great to me. Necrons started out as a one shot enemy from a single planet put in a White Dwarf for some fun. They gave then a poor codex with basically nothing interesting about them in it, some really really shitty fluff to push their model line. 

For anyone complaining about a retcon , they were retconned into the storyline in the first place you cretins. They're reconning out the dull as shit fluff about them being super duper death robots to being super duper slightly insane death robots. 

This fluff sounds good and has the potential to give the army some character, to give players much more scope with the theme and style of their forces. The showing respect to great warriors is code for "holy shit they're going to smash our balls off the desk" which makes the Necons a much more beleiveable and interesting force. Previous a Necron lord would have fed his entire Tomb World into a trash compacter if there was a squirrel at the bottom, now they actually care about suffering catastrophic losses.

I think all this 'This is Ward covering his ass' is is suggesting too much that Matt Ward cares what whiney internet bitches care about what he writes. Rules wise the codex will be good, balanced with the others to a decent extent, fluff wise it'll be bombastic and full of Necron crushing puny mortal faces with lots of characterful options for players. That's what Matt Ward writes. In the end people bought the Matt Ward Codexes in spades, probably whilst self flagellating, so who cares.


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## Serpion5

Fail? I see. :fool: 

People have been whingeing over this BA necron truce story since the BA codex came out. 

Now that the other half of the story has become hinted at, people are still whingeing? Without even knowing for sure that this is even related no less. You cannot know for sure that this is Ward`s ass covering, and even if it is who really cares? If it means an extra unit for the new Necron lore, a bit of extra flavour to a previously flavorless race, then what`s the harm in adding it? 

I`m sure plenty of people will dismiss this anyway as the shit writing of a fanboy. Frankly, I don`t see a problem. 


My previous post was referring to the attitudes of posters in general across the thread and I slipped into OT territory for which I am sorry.  

And (if I may speak OT again) I am quite certain that, with warriors and immortals as troops and lord still as HQ, purist players can continue to play the silent zombies in space theme to their heart`s content.


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## Aramoro

Serpion5 said:


> And (if I may speak OT again) I am quite certain that, with warriors and immortals as troops and lord still as HQ, purist players can continue to play the silent zombies in space theme to their heart`s content.


This is exactly what I think about it. 

People sit down at a game about wars in a fantastical future, one where the stated aim is that the Galaxy is big enough for anything you can imagine to happen. Where is peoples imagination? Does everyone sit down and read a nex Codex and think 'This is the new truth ALL armies are like THIS army' no they're not. All the armies are variations on that, If you want to do a Tomb King style Mad Pharaoh cut off from the rest of the Necron force gone mad on his own planet you can, you want to do an implacable force of faceless, emotionless terminators you can, you want to do something in between go wild. That is the whole point of the fluff, it's to give you the frame work for you to imagine your own army fitting into to.


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## deathbringer

thats all fine and dandy but you can't just up and leave fluff that has been established time and time again.

Trust me i have no problem with a codex full of nasty necron warriors and nasty new necron units, it's the reason when i started 40k i didn't go with necrons, the concept was one i loved but the codex was dull boring and lacked variety, exactly like the sisters codex. Which is why despite my love for witch hunters and pentinent engines and the twisted machinations of the inquisition i cant bring myself to buy them.

My problem with a matt ward codex, and seriously I'm well aware he's sitting atop a nice bucket of cash smoking a 50 quid note with haughty disdain, and hell his wood elf army in lotr is probably the nicest i've ever seen. However each codex has to top the other, has to beat the other and just up the level. The daemons codex for fantasy, the ba codex and now the grey knight codex now, they rarely balance out with the others and it just feels like he is stretching top far for ideas to make each new book epic when they could be far more plausible and still be excellent books

Your taking it as if i have a problem with necrons getting new cool units, seriously i dont, i just dont think you have to blow up pre established fluff just to make something cool. Hence the bitching and whining.


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## Aramoro

deathbringer said:


> thats all fine and dandy but you can't just up and leave fluff that has been established time and time again.


Established time and time again? You do know the Necron were retconned into the fluff that been established time and time again don't you?




> My problem with a matt ward codex, and seriously I'm well aware he's sitting atop a nice bucket of cash smoking a 50 quid note with haughty disdain, and hell his wood elf army in lotr is probably the nicest i've ever seen. However each codex has to top the other, has to beat the other and just up the level. The daemons codex for fantasy, the ba codex and now the grey knight codex now, they rarely balance out with the others and it just feels like he is stretching top far for ideas to make each new book epic when they could be far more plausible and still be excellent books


Matt Wards 40K codex's in 5th have all been pretty good within the other 5th Ed Codexes, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard, Grey Knights are all pretty even right now with only Space Marines and Tyranids not quite at the same level. That being the case I do not understand your point. 




> Your taking it as if i have a problem with necrons getting new cool units, seriously i dont, i just dont think you have to blow up pre established fluff just to make something cool. Hence the bitching and whining.


You mean like how Necrons were inserted into pre-existing fluff already, you mean like that yes? The pre-existing Necrons are boring and have no where to go, there's just no scope for expanding them in a fun way. So you rewrite it, problem solved.


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## Serpion5

Thing is, Change is needed. 

We can`t simply have the same lore repeated again and again. There was little enough on the necrons as it was, and it did not impact so heavily as to completely fuck everything over with its change. 

Furthermore, this brings about a whole new aspect to the grimdark nature of 40k. If these praetorians act the way it seems they do, it is possible for necron lords and thus armies to be influenced in ways that previously would have been unfeasible (such as teaming up with BA? Anyone?) and even have previously unseen dialogue with other races. 


Yes, they are now Tomb Kings in Space in every sense of the word. And the Tomb Kings in WHF are not strictly evil. I am okay with this. After all, as we just established, these changes are not the be all and end all and from this point on a necron army can be as evil or as neautral as the owning player likes. 


For all we know, eradication of all life is not their primary goal anymore. Maybe, like their intergame cousins, they just want their empire back and don`t care for the younger races? Plot wise, it would still work just fine and provide as good a reason for conflic as any.


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## deathbringer

i'll give you that with the evenness of the 5th ed codex thing, perhaps im a little view distorted as both my armies are on 4th ed codex and I'm taking a fair few pastings with my tau especially against blood angels, probably more due to my own inadequacy than anything.

I must admit i wasnt aware, i started the hobby in the middle of 4th ed, so i plead ignorance on said retcon. If i had been around for said retcon it would have pissed me off as much as this one does. To my mind if you state something as canon, like necrons primary focus i dont think it should change.

When a thousand sons removed wolf lord skoll throwing the spear of russ at magnus to save his lord that annoyed me as well. I guess i just like continuity and essential principles of armies to be maintained.

I just don't see this lack of scope to introduce new charactors into what exists, i see the boredom in the codex but not the fluff. Charactors like these law enforcers or whatever else they intend to add can be added but i still reckon you could make them an essential part of the force that drives them forwards perhaps defenders of the computer program that runs the whole tombworld and thus above the will of a necron lord, perhaps even the ones to depose a necron lord that has malfunctioned or failed.

I guess i just dont like change, bloody penicillin was a bad idea if you ask me, and dont get me started on fucking sliced bread.


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## Barnster

I agree with rems

But honestly I think asking ward to write fluff, or rules like going into a sweet shop with a 5yr old and saying don't touch or say anything, they beg, talk dribble and make a fuss till they get what they want. I think the latest army books are not supporting the whole grim dark thing and are just making it into another it will be alright, they will be ponies and everything. There should be balance and the latest releases are getting OTT in my opinion 

I'm not a fan of what I've seen of the new necrons at the moment, and at every turn it just feels like they are watering down fluff, new stuff should expand and support that which has come before not retcon it


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## gally912

I know it will sound absurd, but it breaks my suspension of disbelief. 

With all the crazy insane nonsense in 40k, you take a lot on faith. But what you do have is an established set of general principles that the fluff/canon operates on, which allows a basis for a standard in this absurd universe.

Ward has a small habit of breaking this... 

-Even just looking into the warp unshielded and untrained will lead to madness and death- and there is no way a mortal could travel through it unwelcomed. 

-The necrons are implacible death machines that seem to strike from anywhere. They do not speak and cannot be reasoned or bargained with. They exist to soley exterminate life. They hate all life. They are truly alien to the human mind.

-The Imperium is technophobic in every sense of the word. Truly, it's regressing in what it can provide. New weapons and vehicles used unapproved is tantamount to heresy.



But then you get Draigo, Necron's who appriciate "honor", Bhaal tanks and Dreadknights. 

I don't mind *new* fluff. Retconning necrons in? That's ok, because it didn't overrite anything previously established. Having "ancient necron warriors let someone live because they fought well"? That goes against everything that has been stated about the necrons for almost a decade.


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## Aramoro

gally912 said:


> Ward has a small habit of breaking this...


You're blaming Ward for doing something which happened since he was in primary school, it just shows up your ignorant bias and nothing else. 



> -Even just looking into the warp unshielded and untrained will lead to madness and death- and there is no way a mortal could travel through it unwelcomed.


Draigo was dragged there by a Daemon to torture him, presumeably the Daemon lets him exist there. Mortals go into the warp all the time, thats where they get Juggernaughts.



> -The necrons are implacible death machines that seem to strike from anywhere. They do not speak and cannot be reasoned or bargained with. They exist to soley exterminate life. They hate all life. They are truly alien to the human mind.


They did, now they don't welcome to the world of retconns, something GW have done from the start.



> -The Imperium is technophobic in every sense of the word. Truly, it's regressing in what it can provide. New weapons and vehicles used unapproved is tantamount to heresy.
> 
> 
> 
> But then you get Draigo, Necron's who appriciate "honor", Bhaal tanks and Dreadknights.


Baal Predators have existed in the fluff for more than a decade, and these vehicles are not new, they've been using them all the time you just didn't notice before. That's how the fluff writing works. 



> I don't mind *new* fluff. Retconning necrons in? That's ok, because it didn't overrite anything previously established. Having "ancient necron warriors let someone live because they fought well"? That goes against everything that has been stated about the necrons for almost a decade.


Wait, retconning Necrons in changed nothing? You mean the Eldar were always created to fight a race which didn't exist yet? Khaine was tainted by the Aspect of the Reaper by a soon to exist Star God? 

You don't like Matt Ward, we get it now move on.


----------



## gally912

Aramoro said:


> You don't like Matt Ward, we get it now move on.


It's not a Matt Ward issue, in that sense. I can ignore the Horus Heresy series for it's faults and retcons. It's hard to ignore when it's in the codex and changes how the faction interacts.

Sure, the Eldar origins might have been affected, but the current version of eldar fluff remained the same. If, all of a sudden, the next eldar codex made craftworld eldar extremely human sympathetic, and had eldar making noble sacrifices to preserve humanity, you'd rightly say the writer doesn't know what he's talking about.

I like Ward's rules, for the most part. But the man needs an editor.


----------



## MEQinc

Aramoro said:


> Draigo was dragged there by a Daemon to torture him, presumeably the Daemon lets him exist there. Mortals go into the warp all the time, thats where they get Juggernaughts.


1) Do you mean CSM when you say 'they' because they are the willing servents of the Gods and live (and thus get Juggernaughts from) an area of cross-over between the two dimensions not from the Warp itself.
2) You'd think whichever daemon brought Drago in (and in the process completely rewrote how the warp functions) would've changed his mind after the guy went around bitch-slapping Primarchs and burning Gods.
3) The warp isn't even a physical realm for f*cks sake! How can someone (an entirely mortal, physical being) exist at all in such a realm? Ships require massively powerful generators to haul a portion of real-space with them to prevent being torn to peaces by the very 'fabric' of the warp.



> They did, now they don't welcome to the world of retconns, something GW have done from the start.


So just because that's how somethings always been done we should roll over and accept that it always will be? Sorry middle-eastern countries, I guess you don't get equality; oh and girls, might as give up the vote again, seeing as that's how it was always done.



> Wait, retconning Necrons in changed nothing? You mean the Eldar were always created to fight a race which didn't exist yet? Khaine was tainted by the Aspect of the Reaper by a soon to exist Star God?


Creating the Necrons expanded on, and added to, the history of the Eldar race. Never had the Eldar been said to not be a warrior race; the Aspect of the Reaper is a perfect approximation of the Night Bringer, regardless of whether they have the same name. Adding background, or expanding on background, is in no way a bad thing and I totally welcome it. This is not the same as a retcon though. Adding the Necrons to the Eldars backstory did not alter the Eldar as they are characterized. Changing the Necrons character does.

Look at the recent DE update. There they showed that they are capable of exanding an army (both list and fluff-wise) without altering their character, drives or (for lack of a better word) being. Yes the Necrons are flat in their current incarnation, that doesn't require a retcon about their motivations though. 

Personnally I like the idea of 'insane' or 'degraded' Necrons. I think that adds a lot to their character and provides interesting ideas for the characterisation of a force without altering their motivations. Giving them a sense of honour, having them leave life-forms alone (for a reason other than being beaten) these things alter their motivations, their character and their 'being'.


----------



## Aramoro

MEQinc said:


> 1) Do you mean CSM when you say 'they' because they are the willing servents of the Gods and live (and thus get Juggernaughts from) an area of cross-over between the two dimensions not from the Warp itself.


So you accept mortals can walk in the Warp Realm at the indulgence of Daemons



> 2) You'd think whichever daemon brought Drago in (and in the process completely rewrote how the warp functions) would've changed his mind after the guy went around bitch-slapping Primarchs and burning Gods.


Where does it say he re-wrote how it works? All of Dairgos actions in the warp come to nothing though, he does do anything except fight pointless battles for all eternity, anything he does can be undone. He can banish Daemons back to where he is already. That was the nature of the curse. 




> 3) The warp isn't even a physical realm for f*cks sake! How can someone (an entirely mortal, physical being) exist at all in such a realm? Ships require massively powerful generators to haul a portion of real-space with them to prevent being torn to peaces by the very 'fabric' of the warp.


But you agreed that mortals can go into the Warp Realm so i'm confused why this is relevant, oh wait it's not. 




> So just because that's how somethings always been done we should roll over and accept that it always will be? Sorry middle-eastern countries, I guess you don't get equality; oh and girls, might as give up the vote again, seeing as that's how it was always done.


You do know you clap with the palms of your hands yes? 




> Creating the Necrons expanded on, and added to, the history of the Eldar race. Never had the Eldar been said to not be a warrior race; the Aspect of the Reaper is a perfect approximation of the Night Bringer, regardless of whether they have the same name. Adding background, or expanding on background, is in no way a bad thing and I totally welcome it. This is not the same as a retcon though. Adding the Necrons to the Eldars backstory did not alter the Eldar as they are characterized. Changing the Necrons character does.
> 
> Look at the recent DE update. There they showed that they are capable of exanding an army (both list and fluff-wise) without altering their character, drives or (for lack of a better word) being. Yes the Necrons are flat in their current incarnation, that doesn't require a retcon about their motivations though.


The Necron fluff is so bad and so restrictive right now that retconning it is the only way they can expand that story really, so that's what they're doing.


----------



## LukeValantine

Up to this point the necrons have just been a one dimensional baddy, who have even less character then most portrayals of CMS. Really anyone who has tried writing a cohesive story will tell you that the current state of necrons is poisonous to any advancement. Seriously as of yet they have only existed as a back drop to make the 40k universe seem darker, and nothing more. They are the ultimate faceless meaningless enemy who exists just to kill. They had a background, but really it makes little to no difference to what they do and how they exist now in game. Hell they could have been a army of super death robotic kittens and it would make little difference considering how much their history effects them on the table top. 

I mean do necron players really want their army to be comprised of faceless and pointless robots with no desires wants or goals beyond mindlessly following the age old mandate of gods that they rarely if ever see or hear from?


----------



## MEQinc

I realize this is getting off-topic but still...



Aramoro said:


> So you accept mortals can walk in the Warp Realm at the indulgence of Daemons


Did you read my post? The part where I say "an area of cross-over between the two dimensions not from the Warp itself" more specifically. Because I explicitly state that the Eye is not the Warp and thus even daemon empowered mortals cannot exist in the Warp.



> Where does it say he re-wrote how it works?


Given that, as mentioned, Draigo is capable of being (a material individual) in a realm that does not contain matter someone must have re-written how the Warp works.



> But you agreed that mortals can go into the Warp Realm


But I didn't. 

And now back on-topic.



> The Necron fluff is so bad and so restrictive right now that retconning it is the only way they can expand that story really, so that's what they're doing.


I disagree. The Necron fluff is decidedly lacking in fluff. It's hard to be restricted when there's so little there. When the DE first came out (2ed Codex) they were incredibly restricted and without personality or motivation beyond "For the evulz!". Recently their codex has been redone (thank the lord) and they have been given a far more comprehensive personality. However, their basic motivation remains the same. In other words, they improved the fluff without altering the character. They took a seldom used, restricted list with patchy (read almost non-existent) fluff and developed an effective, interesting list with much, much better fluff. 

The new DE codex is the single greatest validation of my faith in GW ever. I think they can (or at the very least should be able to) do it again.


----------



## Protoss119

All I'm going to say is that I'm getting really sick of GW's fluff inconsistencies. Is there _nothing_ that's constant, _nothing_ that's certain, or _nothing_ that's unconditionally true? I'm sure everyone knows what I have to say about Ward's fluff, and the new 'crons will not be immune to my wrath for much longer, but somehow he gets a pass because "hurr, Imperial Scholars 'n propaganda". It's lazy.


----------



## Samules

Protoss119 said:


> All I'm going to say is that I'm getting really sick of GW's fluff inconsistencies. Is there _nothing_ that's constant, _nothing_ that's certain, or _nothing_ that's unconditionally true? I'm sure everyone knows what I have to say about Ward's fluff, and the new 'crons will not be immune to my wrath for much longer, but somehow he gets a pass because "hurr, Imperial Scholars 'n propaganda". It's lazy.


Do you believe that the fluff back in Rogue Trader was better than it is now? No, fluff has improved over the years. If anything is set in stone then it cannot get better. Sure some certainty is nice but improvement is better.


----------



## Phoebus

I agree that the Necrons should have enjoyed richer fluff, but I disagree that "personalizing" them with concepts like martial honor was the way to go.

The Adeptus Astartes, for instance, didn't become "more interesting" just because their personalities were revamped from psychotic super-soldiers to monastic space-knights. In fact, more often than not, I hear the opposite. They became more interesting, IMHO, because they received more back-story. Their background was given more detail, their history was fleshed out, their battles were described, etc.

By contrast, little is known about the Necrons or the C'Tan. I would much rather see a steady release of material that reveals what their society was like before they became machines, or how their society has evolved since, or more accounts of their campaigns/the reasons behind them/how they affect the Galaxy, or greater detail on how the C'Tan interact with/control them. As opposed to, say, a machine that respects martial valor.

That having been said, I would not be opposed to the highest echelons of the Necrons displaying a *suitably alien, suitably menacing, and suitably inimical-to-life* personality in conjunction with machine-like thinking.

Cheers,
P.


----------



## C'Tan Chimera

I don't mind the idea of Necrons having respect for some traits- but if you ask me, martial prowess and valor does leave me scratching my head. You'd think they'd do that sort of thing with a race that boasted traits that echoed their own *coughTAUcough* . 

Even then, I still don't mind it- so long as we don't get some crap like "Leave the spase marens alone, they are much mightier than us."


----------



## ThatOtherGuy

LukeValantine said:


> I mean do necron players really want their army to be comprised of faceless and pointless robots with no desires wants or goals beyond mindlessly following the age old mandate of gods that they rarely if ever see or hear from?


You mean like scientologists? 


I'm a little torn by this new fluff about the Necrons. Sure I had to admit that the old fluff was a little on the tasteless side, but this new fluff is reeking with Tomb Kings in space. Also the C'tan losing their presence in the present 40k setting is just a little sad and disappointing.


----------



## Harriticus

LukeValantine said:


> Up to this point the necrons have just been a one dimensional baddy, who have even less character then most portrayals of CMS. Really anyone who has tried writing a cohesive story will tell you that the current state of necrons is poisonous to any advancement. Seriously as of yet they have only existed as a back drop to make the 40k universe seem darker, and nothing more. They are the ultimate faceless meaningless enemy who exists just to kill. They had a background, but really it makes little to no difference to what they do and how they exist now in game. Hell they could have been a army of super death robotic kittens and it would make little difference considering how much their history effects them on the table top.
> 
> I mean do necron players really want their army to be comprised of faceless and pointless robots with no desires wants or goals beyond mindlessly following the age old mandate of gods that they rarely if ever see or hear from?


Works for people who play Tyranids and Daemons. 

Necrons were much better as a cold unstoppable uncompromising machine army (they should have played the machine angle up much more, would have made them more unique to 40k) then what they're basically now: Nastier looking Eldar. Like the Eldar, they can be reasoned with, have a sense of honor, trade with other races, and will fight to preserve their Empire. It's really astonishing how badly the Necrons have been destroyed.

Really it's also a diservice to the fans. The C'tan have been at the center of much fan discussion, everybody talked about Void Dragon and Outsider or the Necrons reviving their plans. Now not only are the C'tan essentially no longer relevant to fluff (goodbye Outsider), but they really aren't a Galactic Threat anymore. It's just down to the Tyranids now.


----------



## jaysen

I don't get how humanizing the necrons makes them more interesting. Might as well give them a romantic interest and a talking horse with a snappy disposition. Make them burst into song about how hard it is to be made of living metal but with a heart of gold.

No. Emotionless, pure logic, cold destruction of all warp tainted life. That's interesting.


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## V12ghoul

I think the reason that people are mad about the fluff changes is because the Necrons lack of characteristics was their main characteristic.

That Dark Crusade intro still scares the hell out of me. I always considered the Necrons to be the scariest threat (if not the main one). Something about how they express no joy at the slaughter, nor an animalistic drive to do so. You know it's a cold and calculated move to wipe out everyone.

At least I would fight everything else in 40k if I had to, but not Necrons.


----------



## Serpion5

To those crying at the idea of necrons having honour and such, keep in mind that this trait is thus far only attributed to a single caste of necron, and they are loathed by other necrons because of it. 

The essence of the necrons character has not changed at its core at all as far as I can tell. 

They embody death. They seek the restoration of their empire. And they are efficient and logical as they go about it. 

I`m sorry, but you`ve taken one little piece of fluff and blown it out of proportion here. We don`t even know yet how the rest of the fluff has changed. It is likely that the influence of these few necrons is negligible, given we have all but _one_ example of what is _possibly_ their influence. 



> Emotionless, pure logic, cold destruction of all warp tainted life. That's interesting.


And as I`ve said, it is still well within the ability of any necron fan to emulate and convey. :fool:


----------



## Aramoro

jaysen said:


> I don't get how humanizing the necrons makes them more interesting. Might as well give them a romantic interest and a talking horse with a snappy disposition. Make them burst into song about how hard it is to be made of living metal but with a heart of gold.
> 
> No. Emotionless, pure logic, cold destruction of all warp tainted life. That's interesting.


But that's not what they're doing. They're just making it so they don't feed their entire Tomb World into a trash compacter for no reason. Picking and choosing which battles are sensible is a better application of pure logic than suffering horrific losses from your hubris.




MEQinc said:


> Did you read my post? The part where I say "an area of cross-over between the two dimensions not from the Warp itself" more specifically. Because I explicitly state that the Eye is not the Warp and thus even daemon empowered mortals cannot exist in the Warp.


Mortal champions enter Khrones realm and get Juggernaughts there, juggernaughts are purely Daemons so how do they pass so easily to the mortal realm? God did it, that's is the answer to every question about the warp. 



> Given that, as mentioned, Draigo is capable of being (a material individual) in a realm that does not contain matter someone must have re-written how the Warp works.


Draigo exists as a Daemon, he can only enter the mortal realm through warp rifts and gets sucked back into the Daemon realm when it closes like Daemons do. Presumably this is through the curse the Daemon put on him. You're trying to apply logic to a realm where there is no passage of time, no sense of dimensions, no natural law. They can do whatever they like.


----------



## MEQinc

Aramoro said:


> But that's not what they're doing. They're just making it so they don't feed their entire Tomb World into a trash compacter for no reason. Picking and choosing which battles are sensible is a better application of pure logic than suffering horrific losses from your hubris.


When have the Necrons been shown to feed troops into a meat grinder they won't win? How does that in any way corrolate to the Phase Out idea?


----------



## jaysen

Every time they do battle with my BA.


----------



## jaysen

Aramoro said:


> But that's not what they're doing. They're just making it so they don't feed their entire Tomb World into a trash compacter for no reason. Picking and choosing which battles are sensible is a better application of pure logic than suffering horrific losses from your hubris.


Yeah, I really didn't say they were doing this. I haven't read the codex yet. I was talking about what a poster said earlier in the thread, how applying human traits, such as loyalty and honor, to an alien race would some how make them more interesting to play.

I would say that it might make more people play the army because they could empathize with the characters. However, I don't think this is more interesting.


----------



## Phoebus

Serpion5 said:


> To those crying at the idea of necrons having honour and such, keep in mind that this trait is thus far only attributed to a single caste of necron, ...


Why?

That's one of my questions. Why is that one caste now feeling these concepts? I'm not asking in the _"Why did they change the fluff?!?"_ sense; I'm asking in the _"At least give me a reason why *these* Necrons feel this way"_ sense.



> I`m sorry, but you`ve taken one little piece of fluff and blown it out of proportion here. We don`t even know yet how the rest of the fluff has changed. It is likely that the influence of these few necrons is negligible, given we have all but _one_ example of what is _possibly_ their influence.


So what's the point of it, then?

For my part, I'm annoyed because they throw this from far left field but make (seemingly) zero effort to describe and introduce a behavior pattern for the Necrons that *does* make sense given their established fluff. So we're still stuck with "silent, cold, expressionless, with the personality of a fridge trying to kill all life" except when members of a specific caste admire martial prowess.

That's change for change's sake, and, worse, it doesn't fit with what you already know about them. I could easily deal with it had that Codex come out at a time when other Necron-related articles pointed to that direction, and/or if a developer had dropped some spoilers/clues toward the direction they were taking this faction on. As it stands, though, this is a strange, ill-fitting reference at best.

Cheers,
P.


----------



## Aramoro

Phoebus said:


> Why?
> 
> That's one of my questions. Why is that one caste now feeling these concepts? I'm not asking in the _"Why did they change the fluff?!?"_ sense; I'm asking in the _"At least give me a reason why *these* Necrons feel this way"
> _


_

Programmed to do it by inscrutable aliens.






For my part, I'm annoyed because they throw this from far left field but make (seemingly) zero effort to describe and introduce a behavior pattern for the Necrons that *does* make sense given their established fluff. So we're still stuck with "silent, cold, expressionless, with the personality of a fridge trying to kill all life" except when members of a specific caste admire martial prowess.

Click to expand...

Welcome to retconns, I thin you'll find that Necrons have always done this and have always had this caste system. This is just how it is. 





That's change for change's sake, and, worse, it doesn't fit with what you already know about them. I could easily deal with it had that Codex come out at a time when other Necron-related articles pointed to that direction, and/or if a developer had dropped some spoilers/clues toward the direction they were taking this faction on. As it stands, though, this is a strange, ill-fitting reference at best.

Cheers,
P.

Click to expand...

This direction fits perfectly with all the canon fluff there is about to be about Necrons so I can't see why you can complain about it. It's change because change was needed, Serpion is even a Necron player and he can see the current fluff is dull and pointless._


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Aramoro said:


> This direction fits perfectly with all the canon fluff


Stopped reading here. 

Necrons, the new space samurai.


----------



## Vaz

gally912 said:


> I like Ward's rules, for the most part. But the man needs an editor.


Stay away from Fantasy. They took your advice for the most part, and made Phil Kelly write the fluff, but they still gave him the rules section.

And now we have Heat seeking cannon balls capable of hitting 6 different targets despite one being a huge great howdah carrying monster, and the 5 others hoppy little frog pygmy people, and magic which can wipe out entire units in a single dice roll, or buff their own units into S6 T9 3 Attacks, Always strike first and move faster than cavalry.

He needs sacking, pure and simple. In any normal company that has so many complaints ledged from the multitude of core community followings, he'd be up in front of the boss quicker than Usain Bolt; but because it's basically paying him for his hobby, whose opinion is only more valid because his gets published, and others don't, Games Workshop feel free to blithely ignore the complaints that the people who play the game and read the background for "more than fun" - it gets to be really annoying when suddenly your grimdark is no more dark, and the only thing grim about it is the writers own pitiful sense, or rather lack of humour when coming up with new names.

Vulkan He'Stan - Vulkan, name of a primarch, and also "Volcano", and name of God of Firey things, very original. And "He'Stan" - "He'Man" anyone?

Then we have the joke names like Tiktacktoe, from Lizardmen, Tehenhauin (Teeny weeny? really?)... There can be the odd inner joke, which can offer a wry smile, but when I'm reading about Wolfy McWolfywolfwolf fighting alongside a Blood Angel of Blood carrying his Blood Bolter armed with Blood Rounds and a Dark Angel of Darkness and "B'hob" the Marine, I wonder exactly what the writers were thinking off.

*yes, slight detour into how the hobby has been cheapened, but still relevant*. 




Ish.


----------



## Aramoro

Malus Darkblade said:


> Stopped reading here.
> 
> Necrons, the new space samurai.


Well we don't know what all the fluff will be but essentially yes, the new codex will rewrite what is canon and what is not.At that point the old fluff might as well have never existed, that's how retcons work. The Imperium will still seen them and emotionless killer robots but they themselves have some more colour to them.


----------



## LukeValantine

I thought the old fluff was that we know next to nothing about them, and we shouldn't even try. With a heavy sub text that 90% of their force is comprised of angry toaster ovens in human form with next to no intelligence or awareness who are driven forward by the will of a single lord who retains some of his awareness for the soul purpose of following the biding of beings that largely killed themselves out, and apparently show no allegiance to any specific master (Really the necrons under the outsider follow the commands of any other c'tan if he is in the neighborhood?)


----------



## MEQinc

Aramoro said:


> Well we don't know what all the fluff will be but essentially yes, the new codex will rewrite what is canon and what is not.At that point the old fluff might as well have never existed, that's how retcons work. The Imperium will still seen them and emotionless killer robots but they themselves have some more colour to them.


This is great except for a couple points. 

1) Everything GW releases, ever, (and even things released by subsidiaries) is considered canon. Putting out conflicting information doesn't make the old stuff go away, it just makes $hit confusing.
2) GW generally stays away from completely rewriting the character of a race (to the extent that I cannot recall any instance where they did), probably for the reason mentioned above, meaning that this would be a relatively rare occurrence of a retcon. Also pointing out that the number of these retcons appears to be increasing, increasingly quickly, in the modern era.
3) This is in no way a justification of the change. 'Things change' is not a valid defence of why a certain thing is changing drastically. People have every right to be upset with the reinvention of a race they have already invested time, money and interest into.


----------



## Phoebus

Aramoro said:


> Programmed to do it by inscrutable aliens.


Works, except for the fact that every other faction is accompanied by appropriate and relevant qualifiers referring to their behavior patterns. The Necrons just get a contradictory blurb in another faction's Codex.



> Welcome to retconns, I thin you'll find that Necrons have always done this and have always had this caste system. This is just how it is.


If it always was like that, then it wouldn't be a retcon to begin with... :wink:



> This direction fits perfectly with all the canon fluff there is about to be about Necrons so I can't see why you can complain about it.


I really don't see how appreciation of martial honor fits in perfectly with the existing Necron fluff. The defining personality concept of the Necros was a _lack_ of such traits.



> It's change because change was needed, Serpion is even a Necron player and he can see the current fluff is dull and pointless.


Again, I'm all for the improvement of Necron fluff. I simply happen to think that this direction is a poor one. You already have my ideas on the matter. 

Cheers,
P.


----------



## Wusword77

Vaz said:


> He needs sacking, pure and simple. In any normal company that has so many complaints ledged from the multitude of core community followings, he'd be up in front of the boss quicker than Usain Bolt; but because it's basically paying him for his hobby, whose opinion is only more valid because his gets published, and others don't, Games Workshop feel free to blithely ignore the complaints that the people who play the game and read the background for "more than fun" - it gets to be really annoying when suddenly your grimdark is no more dark, and the only thing grim about it is the writers own pitiful sense, or rather lack of humour when coming up with new names.
> 
> Vulkan He'Stan - Vulkan, name of a primarch, and also "Volcano", and name of God of Firey things, very original. And "He'Stan" - "He'Man" anyone?
> 
> Then we have the joke names like Tiktacktoe, from Lizardmen, Tehenhauin (Teeny weeny? really?)... There can be the odd inner joke, which can offer a wry smile, but when I'm reading about Wolfy McWolfywolfwolf fighting alongside a Blood Angel of Blood carrying his Blood Bolter armed with Blood Rounds and a Dark Angel of Darkness and "B'hob" the Marine, I wonder exactly what the writers were thinking off.


So there's no problem with Ian Watson was putting toilet humor (like Space Marines farting into each other faces) into the game, but Ward calls something of the Blood Angels the "Blood Fist" and he's ruining the fluff of the game? :laugh:

Oh and Phil Kelly, the guy that people say gives us such amazing fluff, is the one who gave us the current Space Wolf codex with all it's Wolfy goodness in every damn unit.

Matt Ward: 4 Items with Blood in their name in the BA codex is too much.

Phil Kelly: Canis Wolfborn who rides a Thunderwolf, has the special ability Lord of the Wolfkin, and has a Wolftooth Necklace, 2 Wolf Claws, a Wolf Tail talisman, and a Saga of the Wolfkin.

Every writer puts out some crap sometimes that the community doesn't like. If GW sacked every writer who wrote something the community didn't agree with 40k would have ended after Rouge Trader.



MEQinc said:


> 3) This is in no way a justification of the change. 'Things change' is not a valid defence of why a certain thing is changing drastically. People have every right to be upset with the reinvention of a race they have already invested time, money and interest into.


Except the previous Fluff for the Necrons was so small GW had almost nothing to work with. When your fluff is limited to:

"They're robots that used to be people and they are programmed to kill everything. They have 2 gods that converted them to machines. They fought the Eldar, Orks, and Old Ones in the past."

You have to be willing to let them change something.


----------



## Phoebus

Wusword77 said:


> Except the previous Fluff for the Necrons was so small GW had almost nothing to work with. When your fluff is limited to:
> 
> "They're robots that used to be people and they are programmed to kill everything. They have 2 gods that converted them to machines. They fought the Eldar, Orks, and Old Ones in the past."
> 
> You have to be willing to let them change something.


I object to this part.

If you really want to get down to it, here is my plot summary of the Eldar:

"They are space elves who used to have a very powerful empire that was accessible by space tunnels. Then they got really perverse and they gave birth to a space god that wrecked their empire. Now they are either space monk elves that fly around in big ships, dinosaur-riding elves, or evil elves that torture and suck souls."

The big difference between the Necrons and the Eldar is that they have no back story. The Imperium has the Great Crusade, the Horus Heresy, the Age of Apostasy, the Macharian Crusade/Heresy, the Sabbat World Crusade, _three_ wars for Armageddon, and a number of other events. And ultimately, it's the _events_ that define it and fill it out with context, description, etc. And that's exactly what the Necrons lack. They get throw-away references to mysterious encounters, and scarce mythological references.

So what would help the Necrons better? Fleshing out immortal machines bent on destroying all life with personalities when there were none before? You might as well give the Tyranids personalities for all that's going to do to enhance their fluff.

Or, better, why not actually use the available vehicles 40k fluff provides writers with to reveal more of their background, their history, and what they're up to now? Think about it, the Necrons can't be acting haphazardly and randomly. There has to be a pattern and a plan to what they're doing, and there has to be some sort of impetus and direction behind their awakening and their efforts. None of those concepts have actually been fleshed out yet. Why not go with that, instead of inventing stuff out of whole cloth?

Cheers,
P.


----------



## deathbringer

Wusword77 said:


> Except the previous Fluff for the Necrons was so small GW had almost nothing to work with. When your fluff is limited to:
> 
> "They're robots that used to be people and they are programmed to kill everything. They have 2 gods that converted them to machines. They fought the Eldar, Orks, and Old Ones in the past."
> 
> You have to be willing to let them change something.


Ok but if its so small surely you could add to it without changing it to the core?

Why do you have to morph something so small in order to change it

I think that is most peoples point... we dont object to expansion just dont need to expand in a completely different direction to the one established... ie if someone is defined by the background of thin you expand upwards not outwards, bad example but fuck it its late


----------



## Katie Drake

People should just ignore/change fluff they dislike.

It's not set in stone. The background isn't meant to be read like a Bible, it's there to give you a background to set your own stories in. You are utterly free to change it to suit your preferences.

Prefer the idea of Necrons as soulless automatons? Say that yours are the ones mentioned in the Codex who have had their personalities wiped. If that's not your thing, say that your army is led by a combination of several Deceiver shards who have come together and managed to enslave one or more Tomb Worlds worth of warriors. Decide to only use units that featured in the first Codex if the new ones don't fit your vision of how the Necrons work.

The point is that there's no good reason to get upset about "bad fluff" when one can just ignore the stuff that pisses them off and cherry pick the good stuff.


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## gally912

I think I've figured out how to articulate what my problem with it is.

Before, the Necrons were scary... in the sense they were mysterious. They strike from anywhere, they could be anywhere... and they make no demands. They exist to kill, and the man cannot fathom how or why. They are truly alien. 

Now, by going the route of more "tomb kings in space", they have been given a human analogue culture, and such, they are humanized somewhat. 

And therefore lose what made them alien.


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## notsoevil

I think being roboskeletors makes them still pretty alien.


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## Rems

I'd quite like to see the Necrontyr's culture (as in pre transformation) to be very alien and very different from any human analogy. To be really alien and far removed from human conceptions. Being a non humanoid race (eg bibedal, two arms and legs, one head etc) would be a great start and an interesting angle to go with, seeing as how we have no other 'main' non humanoid race (other than nids, but i mean one with a civilisation). 

Then you might ask but why are the necrons then bipedal. To which i would answer; to better terrify the races they were transformed to cull. It's an one the Inquistors observed, the necrons had been specifically designed to strike terror into humans (and by extension humanoid races as humans weren't actually around then). 

I certainly agree though that the Necrons needs to fleshed out more and explored, i just disagree with the apparent current direction; ie very 'human' and somewhat relate able. I'd much prefer a more inscrutable, mysterious necrons that still can have some personality, just not one we'd readily recognise or appreciate. I don't want space egyptions/ space mummies.


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## KhainiteAssassin

thing is though Rems, the Necrontyr were humanoid, there is two aspects to prove this. 

First, why would something more humanoid strike more fear into the hearts of humanoid races, then something utterly alien? Humanoids fear what we do not know, not what is familiar to us.

The second aspect brings logic into the situation. I do not think any creature could handle a massive change to its structure, by this I mean, a human not born with wings, even if you were to attach wings so the brain could move them, it would not actively be able to, as we do not actively know what Synapses in our mind will control the wings, just like we ourselves do not know what synapses actually control our bodies, that information is hard coded into our brains from the moment we are conceived.

Yes this is a "fantasy universe" but it still, to an extent, follows certain logics. this would be a fundamental logic that would probably not be changed.

theres also probably a few things in the old dex mentioning them being humanoid like.


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## Serpion5

I`ll offer some perspective on my opinion so people know why I am glad for this new fluff: 


For the past year I`ve been working on a fanfic serial down in the Original Works section. It is based on the Necrontyr`s fall and their transformation into the necrons. Being so devoid of background meant I was free to invent any concepts I wanted to fill in the many and vast blanks of that era. Easy right? No, not really. 

Now it seems as though this void is about to be filled. Which is good, because I will now have a solid foundation to base my work on (which I write for my own interest and the entertainment of those few heretics who read it) and it will be far easier to tie it in with official canon. 

Granted, this rettcon will force me to do some heavy retconning of my own, probably even a complete rewrite. Do I care? No, because I know my work will be more credible and interesting for it. 


Many have said that they like _their_ necrons as being the soulless automata they`ve always been, but for someone like me who values the Art and Fiction side of the hobby more than gaming, it is a good change. This new lore provides a far more solid and diverse foundation for people like me to build on, both in fiction and in art including modelling and converting the miniatures to reflect narrative and personality.


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## Aramoro

Phoebus said:


> Works, except for the fact that every other faction is accompanied by appropriate and relevant qualifiers referring to their behavior patterns. The Necrons just get a contradictory blurb in another faction's Codex.


Come on about half the Eldar fluff is 'inscrutable aliens did it'




> If it always was like that, then it wouldn't be a retcon to begin with... :wink:


Then maybe it's not, a retcon is like your fluff being tossed into the Warp, when this fluff gets printed this will have been how the Necrons have always been syduck:




> I really don't see how appreciation of martial honor fits in perfectly with the existing Necron fluff. The defining personality concept of the Necros was a _lack_ of such traits.


I didn't say the current fluff, but the fluff that is about to be which is all that matters. It's their game so they can do what they like to it.


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## Malus Darkblade

@gally912: good post

I think the main thing that pisses me off is how the C'tan and the Necrons roles have switched. 

The former have now become the latter's punching bag. It's the equivalent of the Thousand Sons summoning a Lord of Change in some abandoned desert then vanishing moments before he appears, leaving a note saying HAHA.

Also according to another forum I checked out, one of the Necron empires is going to start trading with other alien races. I'd like to believe this isn't true but some people claim this information is from the upcoming Necron codex.


----------



## Farseer Darvaleth

Rems said:


> Sadly it still doesn't make much sense nor fit the necron's theme. The necrons have been this eerie, implacable force that suddenly appears, can not be bargained with and is unstoppable. They exist to extinguish the hated living who mock them with continued biological life. Their sentience and free will is gone, only a dimly rememberd hatred animates them.
> 
> Well now it seems we can throw all that out the window. The necrons parley now. The lords, previously the only near sentient necrons, can be overruled by what should be mere cogs in the machine. Why would a race previously involved in a millennia long, genocidal war value notions like honour? The necrons aren't some ancient, noble race with a long marital tradition. They're the diminished remnants of a hateful civilisation that would rather sacrifice their very being and existence and embark on a genocidal war against life than accept their lot. They are the logical, relentless machine, they don't have emotions and whims, respect for others.


+1.

While the previous Necron fluff was very patchy, what as there was, in my humble opinion, brilliant. Now we seem to be getting "Tomb Kings in space". However, I do not believe this to be a cause for despair.


For those who welcome the fluff change, good on you. New fluff has made you happy and I can only say I'm glad for you. 

For those who are, perhaps, displeased with this new direction, I say to you: do not despair! I myself do not like the idea of the C'tan being overthrown one little bit. And this about parleying and Lords being overrules by their own troops is also unsavoury for me. So why am I happy?

My army doesn't have to follow this fluff. My army will still be "lead" by "the Deceiver". In more relaxed games I will ask for permission to use his old rules as opposed to the new rumoured "C'tan Shards". So that solved problem #1. What about Lords hum-drumming with other races? Well my Lord certainly won't. Mine will be the relentless, unstoppable, faceless killer that I have grown to love.

And what about troops disobeying my Lord's command because their opponent is honourable? Tsk. My Lord (heck, let alone the Deceiver) will not allow any room for disloyalty. 

My army's fluff will be based around the Deceiver and his most loyal warriors (hence their greatly diminished number compared to his previous legions) marauding the universe in search of a suitable world to seed and turn into a new Tomb World, whilst avoiding the new "independent" Lords. I could even write up short stories of the Necrons encounter with independent Lords, trying at first to disguise the Deceiver as a Shard before opening fire on the enemy. I could re-include the Pariahs, as they are the Deceiver's creation, and use them to represent a new unit (like those Triarchs or something). 

See? I've gone on a fluff-spool totally by accident. Screw the mainstream fluff saying the C'tan are all nerfed and the Lords take orders from their soldiers. We've always created our own fluff if we wanted to, to make our army's more unique, so why should we stop now and bend our knees to Mat Ward? Heck total Space Marine mainstream obedience would lead to more Ultramarine players than fantasy players. :laugh:


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## SoulGazer

yakface said:


> The Silent King, who put himself into exile (for his unforgivable crime against his people) by leaving the galaxy after defeating the C'Tan encountered the Tyranids in the void between galaxies and has returned to spur the Necrons into action against the Tyranids (realizing that if the Tyranids wipe the galaxy clean of biological matter, then the Necrons will never find a form to transfer their minds back into).


So that's why the Silent King stopped fighting the Blood Angels. He may even plan on using Astartes bodies to transfer back into after the Nids are dead.

As for the BA's shift, there is a quote from an Inquisitor in the Ciahpus Cain books,(don't remember where exactly, but I'm pretty sure it's there) that reads: "The enemy of my enemy is a problem I'll deal with later, but for now they could be useful." Maybe the BAs will try to use the Crons as fodder?

Perhaps the Silent King convinced the Blood Angels that the Tyranid are the greater threat and so they decided to not waste more time killing each other when there were more Nids to kill? It is all a little off, I agree, but it's at least a tad more plausible now.

(Oh, right, I have to make an off-topic post to keep the theme of this thread...)
The new fluff is fine, it allows for all the old stuff to still be viable if you as the player wants it to be. I'm actually very tempted to make Angry Necrons now just so I can say "Well, you wanted more diversity, right?"


----------



## General-jwj

My problem with this isn't so much the event in itself (Soulgazer just gave a pretty good explanation that isn't too out of character imo) but with the wording in the story.

The last line reads "Following the final battle at Devil's Crag, Dante and the Silent King go their separate ways, both forces now too battleworn to guarantee victory over the other *and, at least for the Blood Angels, the idea of turning on those they had so recently fought alongside, a distasteful one."*

If he'd put a period just before all that section in bold, it might have been okay. But the Blood Angels finding it "distasteful" to fight xeno ? Are we talking about the same Blood Angels that are Space Marines who'se motto is "kill the xeno, purge the unclean, bla bla bla ..." ?

He should have just stayed with the "too battleworn to guarantee victory" part.


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## SoulGazer

General-jwj said:


> The last line reads "Following the final battle at Devil's Crag, Dante and the Silent King go their separate ways, both forces now too battleworn to guarantee victory over the other *and, at least for the Blood Angels, the idea of turning on those they had so recently fought alongside, a distasteful one."*


Yeah, that part... I don't recall Space Marines ever finding it "distasteful" to kill _anything._


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## Karak The Unfaithful

I think Matt Ward is just making up silly exscuses for his big mistakes, I mean: the emotionless terrors of the galaxy joining up with guys who ahve sworn to kill all enemies of the Imperium (necrons) it just makes no sense.


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## Uveron

Right, reading this… I bet this change of the fluff has 0 todo with any of the creative types in GW, I bet the orders for this to happen came from Tom Kirby et al… 

I haven’t seen his name mentioned before around here so if you don’t check out this, Go to that site have a dig around, there is no need for conspiracy theories about how GW make their money, it’s all right there. 

Anyway how does this relate to this topic. At the top of R&D of the new codex this will be the mission statement: “We have a simple strategy at Games Workshop. We make the best fantasy miniatures and games in the world and sell them globally at a profit” 

Now key bit here is sell them, to sell something you have to know what the customer wants. So they will have taken surveys, you may not have been involved but they will have been done. Now if the question “why don’t you play necrons” was asked many reasons will have been put down, but Iam willing to bet one response came up quite a few times “because I cannot ally them with my mates army accourinding to fluff” depending on the scale of the survey it may of only had to be called once. Once the responses on things they couldn’t change were removed, it would have been on that list. Sales and Marketing or even the (independent group who ran the product research) will have looked at that and sent a memo to creative going “fix it” 

And now they have.. 

It is the world we live in now..


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## Wusword77

SoulGazer said:


> Yeah, that part... I don't recall Space Marines ever finding it "distasteful" to kill _anything._


Except when Calgar let the Tau get off planet before declaring Exterminatus to kill the Nid's that were invading.


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## V12ghoul

Serpion5 said:


> Many have said that they like _their_ necrons as being the soulless automata they`ve always been, but for someone like me who values the Art and Fiction side of the hobby more than gaming, it is a good change. This new lore provides a far more solid and diverse foundation for people like me to build on, both in fiction and in art including modelling and converting the miniatures to reflect narrative and personality.


The new change in the fluff is on the art and fiction side of the hobby. Necrons used to equal evil. Neutral, or even reasonable Necrons, that's not a scary threat anymore. Now they're basically Eldar and DE.


----------



## Serpion5

V12ghoul said:


> The new change in the fluff is on the art and fiction side of the hobby. Necrons used to equal evil. Neutral, or even reasonable Necrons, that's not a scary threat anymore. Now they're basically Eldar and DE.


No. If I write, the necrons will only be as reasonable as I want them to be. If I want them to be the soulless unrelenting death machines thay`ve always been, they will be. If I want them to be logical and rational when faced with multiple adversaries, they will be. 

The new fluff has changed one thing that seems to have been glossed over in the face of this newfound sentience: The Necron`s ultimate goal. 

No longer do they seek the eradication of all life. Their goal now is the restoration of their empire. To do this requires the presence of other sentient life in the galaxy, something which is threatened by the existence of tyranids and Chaos. It makes sense therefore that they would make rational decisions to preserve certain factions if they perceive them to be useful.


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## Rems

But they never really had much of an empire. It orginally took them a vast amount of time to even colonise nearby systems on account of their short life spans and slow ships. Then they lost what meagre gains they had after a disastrous first war with the Old Ones. 

In the next war they were slaves to the C'tan who were more interested in harvesting the galaxy of life than founding empires. The Necrons themselves, being machines at varying levels of sentience would have also been disinterested in founding any new empires, nor do we have any fluff saying they did. 

So what empire exactly are they trying to restore? 

Preserving useful factions, alright i can understand this. Useful factions would be some sections of humanity. Fragile, short lived, easily controlled. Lacking the aggression, technological mimicry or strength of orks or the psychic abilities of the eldar, a great slave race. The Astartes however, i can see no reason why the necrons would preserve them. Raised and trained to hate all xenos, who have a religious fanaticism against the necrons very existence, who would never stop fighting or opposing them. Who would make perfect rebellion leaders and motivate other humans. Why would you want to preserve them?


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## Serpion5

Rems said:


> But they never really had much of an empire. It orginally took them a vast amount of time to even colonise nearby systems on account of their short life spans and slow ships. Then they lost what meagre gains they had after a disastrous first war with the Old Ones.
> 
> In the next war they were slaves to the C'tan who were more interested in harvesting the galaxy of life than founding empires. The Necrons themselves, being machines at varying levels of sentience would have also been disinterested in founding any new empires, nor do we have any fluff saying they did.
> 
> So what empire exactly are they trying to restore?
> 
> Preserving useful factions, alright i can understand this. Useful factions would be some sections of humanity. Fragile, short lived, easily controlled. Lacking the aggression, technological mimicry or strength of orks or the psychic abilities of the eldar, a great slave race. The Astartes however, i can see no reason why the necrons would preserve them. Raised and trained to hate all xenos, who have a religious fanaticism against the necrons very existence, who would never stop fighting or opposing them. Who would make perfect rebellion leaders and motivate other humans. Why would you want to preserve them?


You`re basing your post on the old fluff, some of which we know to be irrelevant. 

Simply put, we cannot really judge this change accurately until we have seen them for ourselves. It is only speculation at this point, some are looking forward to it while others are dreading. 

Nothing will come of this beyond what has been achieved already. Not until the new codex is released and we can see the extent of the new fluff for ourselves.


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## Alsojames

Personally, I find the new fluff interesting. Now I can imagine a Necron Lord taunting an enemy or regretting a loss, rather than just going "hurr durr, emotionless machine durr".


I mean, who wants to take command of a bunch of skeletal robots that do nothing but shoot stuff? Some kind of method, emotion or thought should go into it.


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## SlamHammer

Alsojames said:


> Personally, I find the new fluff interesting. Now I can imagine a Necron Lord taunting an enemy or regretting a loss, rather than just going "hurr durr, emotionless machine durr".
> 
> 
> I mean, who wants to take command of a bunch of skeletal robots that do nothing but shoot stuff? Some kind of method, emotion or thought should go into it.


This is probably the coolest change of the whole fluff. Each Tomb World is independent of the others and thus have its own unique personality (much like the Chapters of Marines). Which means that the Honor-Bound Special Lord of the Tomb World that the Blood Angels met would be vastly different then the Stormlord for example. 

With this, you can have Necrons not only as the Galaxies Villians, but some Tomb Worlds could produce Galactic Heroes.


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## Phoebus

Serpion5 said:


> No. If I write, the necrons will only be as reasonable as I want them to be. If I want them to be the soulless unrelenting death machines thay`ve always been, they will be. If I want them to be logical and rational when faced with multiple adversaries, they will be.
> 
> The new fluff has changed one thing that seems to have been glossed over in the face of this newfound sentience: The Necron`s ultimate goal.
> 
> No longer do they seek the eradication of all life. Their goal now is the restoration of their empire. To do this requires the presence of other sentient life in the galaxy, something which is threatened by the existence of tyranids and Chaos. It makes sense therefore that they would make rational decisions to preserve certain factions if they perceive them to be useful.


I'm confused.

And, admittedly, ignorant. :biggrin:

Is the fluff cited above existing fluff, or what we're assuming will be in the new Codex?


----------



## Malus Darkblade

SlamHammer said:


> This is probably the coolest change of the whole fluff. Each Tomb World is independent of the others and thus have its own unique personality (much like the Chapters of Marines). Which means that the Honor-Bound Special Lord of the Tomb World that the Blood Angels met would be vastly different then the Stormlord for example.
> 
> With this, you can have Necrons not only as the Galaxies Villians, but some Tomb Worlds could produce Galactic Heroes.


You can't have separate Necron factions with their own ideologies. 

I mean they're already almost-clones of the Eldar. Now they're going to have rivalries similar to the Eldar and Dark Eldar.

I can see it now. The Necrons will empower the Tau by showing them how to travel the Warp like the other races or better yet, tell them how they travel without the use of the Warp.

Le sigh...


----------



## Vaz

Why Necron/Blood Angel Alliance is everyone raging against?

Why the fuck are Tyranids attacking Necrons?


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## SlamHammer

Malus Darkblade said:


> You can't have separate Necron factions with their own ideologies.
> 
> I mean they're already almost-clones of the Eldar. Now they're going to have rivalries similar to the Eldar and Dark Eldar.
> 
> I can see it now. The Necrons will empower the Tau by showing them how to travel the Warp like the other races or better yet, tell them how they travel without the use of the Warp.
> 
> Le sigh...


But that is exactly what the Rumored Fluff is going to be. The main difference between the Eldar and the Necrons, is that the Necrons want Tithes, Worship, and Fealty of all the other races. Because of this, I don't see them shaing thier toys. _ *See Rumor section for additional info.*_


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## Vaz

So, gone are the one dimensional, soulless, nameless silent killers, and in return, we get tithed empires and control of populations...

Been there, done that with Eldar, Imperium, and Tau. It's what makes the Alien menace so menacing and alien. If we wanted domination, we'd get Codex: Enslavers, not "Codex: necrons-that-want-to-be-imperials-because-we-can't-sell-enough-models-or-actually-determine-the-real-cause-for-our-poor-sales-on-a-ten-year-old-unsupported-army".


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## Farseer Darvaleth

Vaz said:


> So, gone are the one dimensional, soulless, nameless silent killers, and in return, we get tithed empires and control of populations...
> 
> Been there, done that with Eldar, Imperium, and Tau. It's what makes the Alien menace so menacing and alien. If we wanted domination, we'd get Codex: Enslavers, not "Codex: necrons-that-want-to-be-imperials-because-we-can't-sell-enough-models-or-actually-determine-the-real-cause-for-our-poor-sales-on-a-ten-year-old-unsupported-army".


I'd say "+1" but that'd be a gross understatement.


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## shaantitus

I have this feeling that the entire rework of the fluff for the necrons is just to correct the fluff screwup in codex BA. But that is me. I liked the old necron fluff, the changes don't seem right to me.


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## Wusword77

shaantitus said:


> I have this feeling that the entire rework of the fluff for the necrons is just to correct the fluff screwup in codex BA. But that is me. I liked the old necron fluff, the changes don't seem right to me.


Or the claimed "fluff screw up" from the BA Dex could have been the herald of the new Necron codex to come. They could have been planning on making the Necrons Tomb Kings in space for a long time.

But if that was the case people couldn't blame it on Ward.


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## jaysen

I think I'm going to have to buy a Necron army, paint them Blood Red and make them a Blood Angels auxillery.


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## Serpion5

Phoebus said:


> I'm confused.
> 
> And, admittedly, ignorant. :biggrin:
> 
> Is the fluff cited above existing fluff, or what we're assuming will be in the new Codex?


Existing fluff is: 

The necrons are subservient to the c`tan. They seek to eradicate all life that threatens them (eldar, orks and such) and then enslave humanity in order to feed the hunger of the c`tan. In this scenario they are little more than automated farmers. 

Further, I feel that the reason for changing this is to reassert Chaos as the villain. The overall theme of Thirsty gods feasting on the essence of mortals works well with one faction, kind of loses its impact with a second. 


New Fluff is almost parallel to the TK from WHF. They are an ancient race who were tricked by ancient gods into becoming the necrons. Following their betrayal, they sought vengeance and overthrew their gods, imprisoning them in pocket dimensions where they can be summoned in selective fragments to serve the necrons. Their goal is to find a suitable race to re-transfer their sentience back into, to restore their empire. 

In this scenario there is much more freedom for potential army backgrounds rather than all tombs following the same cookie cutter fluff. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> You can't have separate Necron factions with their own ideologies.
> 
> I mean they're already almost-clones of the Eldar. Now they're going to have rivalries similar to the Eldar and Dark Eldar.


Eldar are a race struggling to hold onto an empire. 

Humanity are a race struggling to hold onto an empire. 

Tau are a race struggling to _begin_ an empire. 


Honestly dude, the galaxy is fucking huge, what`s one more race gonna hurt? 



Wusword77 said:


> Or the claimed "fluff screw up" from the BA Dex could have been the herald of the new Necron codex to come. They could have been planning on making the Necrons Tomb Kings in space for a long time.
> 
> But if that was the case people couldn't blame it on Ward.


I agree with your last sentence. I doubt a lot of this hate would be floating around if someone else, say Phil Kelly, had written this. I sense a lot of bandwagoning and bull headedness on the internetz. 


We can be kings too y`know? :king:


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## Rems

Serpion5 said:


> New Fluff is almost parallel to the TK from WHF. They are an ancient race who were tricked by ancient gods into becoming the necrons. Following their betrayal, they sought vengeance and overthrew their gods, imprisoning them in pocket dimensions where they can be summoned in selective fragments to serve the necrons. Their goal is to find a suitable race to re-transfer their sentience back into, to restore their empire.
> 
> In this scenario there is much more freedom for potential army backgrounds rather than all tombs following the same cookie cutter fluff.


You know what Serpion, described like that i can actually get behind the Necron fluff change. When you put it like that it is actually quite interesting. I won't lie, i do very much like the old necron fluff but if the new stuff is in the direction you've posted then then i can live with (and likely come to enjoy) it. (though i would still prefer a very, very alien culture as opposed to space Egyptians). 


How about that, someone's mind who was actually changed in an internet discussion, miracles do happen. 

I also agree that there seems to be far too much selective Ward hating. Yes the man's made some mistakes in the fluff area (alright quite a few) but he's written some good rules and doesn't deserve the level of vitriol so often directed at him.


----------



## Serpion5

Rems said:


> You know what Serpion, described like that i can actually get behind the Necron fluff change.
> 
> How about that, someone's mind who was actually changed in an internet discussion, miracles do happen.


Not for nothing do we both have the wisdom medal then. :biggrin: 

I shall give you a cookie sir, for proving that rationality exists.


----------



## Vaz

> New Fluff is almost parallel to the TK from WHF. They are an ancient race who were tricked by ancient gods into becoming the necrons. Following their betrayal, they sought vengeance and overthrew their gods, imprisoning them in pocket dimensions where they can be summoned in selective fragments to serve the necrons. Their goal is to find a suitable race to re-transfer their sentience back into, to restore their empire.


So different from Tomb Kings. Ancient Civilisation was siezed by God-like power of sorceror, and turned them into the undead with his curse. Following the rising of the undead, they rebelled, and destroyed Nagash, imprisoning his constituent parts, and now the Tomb Kings use their unlife to achieve the immortality and complete domination of their empire, using the sentient races as slaves to keep their empire running.

So, so, so different.



> I also agree that there seems to be far too much selective Ward hating. Yes the man's made some mistakes in the fluff area (alright quite a few) but he's written some good rules and doesn't deserve the level of vitriol so often directed at him.


Doesn't matter how good you are when you have two rabid death seekers suddenly hugging each other after attacking an enemy that shouldn't have been there, and going their separate ways peacefully, with gifts of cigars and whisky, you deserve everything you get.


----------



## Farseer Darvaleth

I don't _hate_ Ward, I don't dislike him in the least. Whenever I feel hate stirring I try to think of the person's life, how they get on day-to-day, and if they're really that deserving of the hatred. Ward's job should not, in ANY way, earn him hate.

But I do find the fluff changes distasteful. Not as bad as when I first heard about them; given time to think I've reflected that there's good and bad, and that the bad can be limited. But the Egyptian style makes me ever so slightly uneasy, along with the defeated C'tan. But a lot of it is good.

Consider my mind affected, but not entirely changed.


----------



## Serpion5

Vaz said:


> So different from Tomb Kings. Ancient Civilisation was siezed by God-like power of sorceror, and turned them into the undead with his curse. Following the rising of the undead, they rebelled, and destroyed Nagash, imprisoning his constituent parts, and now the Tomb Kings use their unlife to achieve the immortality and complete domination of their empire, using the sentient races as slaves to keep their empire running.
> 
> So, so, so different.


Specifics are different of course. And I wouldn`t pretend otherwise. People wanted to live longer, so sought means to immortality. There was a betrayal by higher beings leading to and unfortunate unwanted form of immortality, more a curse than a boon. Hibernation was necessary, resurrection accidental and vengeance pursued. 

I never said they were identical, I said they were following a similar parallel plot. A similar fluff template if you will. 



> Doesn't matter how good you are when you have two rabid death seekers suddenly hugging each other after attacking an enemy that shouldn't have been there, and going their separate ways peacefully, with gifts of cigars and whisky, you deserve everything you get.


Blood Angels are honourable astartes who value the art of war, they are by no means "rabid death seekers." At least, not universally. I highly doubt Dante would be leading a force composed entirely of Death Company.  

And necrons are clearly not death seekers either, and have never been depicted as rabid. Cold, logical and implacable spring to mind, not rabid. 


As for the tyranids _shouldn`t have been there_? Kraken Splinter Fleets successfully broke past Ichar IV and have been multiplying ever since deep towards the galactic core and even as far to the galactic west. A splinter of Leviathan even registered as a threat to Terra. *This has been established fluff for at least three editions now!* So, who are you to decide where they _should_ or _shouldn`t_ be? 


Honestly Vaz, your post just reeks of nitpicking and bias. :taunt:


----------



## Vaz

I mean, since when did Tyranids invade Necrons?


----------



## jaysen

Either way, my BloodCrons are gonna be awesome. That's just what the Blood Angels needed, a necron auxillery force.


----------



## Davidicus 40k

Vaz said:


> I mean, since when did Tyranids invade Necrons?


Tyranids needed more iron in their diet, so they decided to chomp on Necrons.

I don't mind some depth and personality being added to the Necrons, such as the capacity to comprehend concepts like honor and the worth of an enemy, as long as the mad-machines don't lose their fear-inspiring qualities. Frankly, I think they serve as a nice counterpoint to the Tyranids: both are very powerful and have the potential to destroy the galaxy, but while the Tyranids are aggressive, gluttonous, and innumerable, the Necrons are mysterious, terrifying, and strategic, only striking when they are assured victory. Both are unstoppable in their own way.

I don't have a problem with Blood Angel and Necron cooperation, so long as there are believable repercussions. The galaxy's a big place and, in an effort to break free of the "All Space Marines are like <insert description> and all Necrons are like <insert description>", crazy things should happen - so long as they're not _too_ crazy. Obviously, the line of what's tolerable and what's not is pretty vague, though we all seem to agree Ward has stepped over it numerous times .


----------



## Serpion5

Vaz said:


> I mean, since when did Tyranids invade Necrons?


They entered orbit of a planet where known life forms were detected (ie: Blood Angels). We cannot know whether they sensed the necron`s presence or not, and in either case the tyranids are not above making tactical errors. 

There simply isn`t enough solid information to judge this. For all we know, the necrons had no ships in orbit, so perhaps the nids simply assumed there were only human forces on the planet?


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin

Even if the 'nids knew the Necrons were there, if there was enough biomass on the planet then the 'nids would invade. As far as I'm aware, Necrons aren't anathema to the Hive Fleets, so the mere presence of 'crons won't deter invasion; as long as the planet can be harvested, anyway.
As for the 'alliance', I've never seen it as any more than a tactical decision reached by two Commanders who know any other path will lead to death. I've never been able to read meetings or conferences between the two, just two enemy forces forced to 'live and let live'; should they be fighting close by each other, then it only makes sense to work towards the common goal of survival with de facto comrades. Even one group coming to rescue their enemies makes perfect sense as if you allow them to die, you sign your own death warrant.
As to not attacking when the danger is over? The 'crons, as I read it, know they have suffered too much damage to win and so refrain. The Angels might have won, but their martial honour holds them back; the Necrons have fought, to an extent, _with_ them and so to kill them now would be wrong. No-one said this honour wasn't misguided or misplaced, but it is a nice example of how differently the two races are, and how alike they are. Both value personal survival, though doubtless for different reasons and in different forms; both value pragmatism, why else change strategic goals and fight alongside an erstwile enemy?; but they differ on reasons to not try to kill after the 'nids are defeated, one because cold logic says they will lose- one because squishy Humanity burns through the outer-Astartes. Reason vs emotion.
When there is such a small amount written on something so different, I think we do _ourselves_ a disservice when we allow a cynical and snarky interpretation to dominate, rather than trying to expand this shared 'verse together.

GFP


----------



## Gree

I generally prefer to think of the New Necrons as an entirely new race and wipe everything before that clean.

I don't exactly hate Ward, I think he's done a rather poor job fluffwise in regards to the Grey Knights and Blood Angels (Personally I think McNeill is worse than Ward ie regards to Ultramarines.) But I'm liking the sound of the new Necrons.


----------



## SonOfStan

I'm all for anything that makes for a more interesting storyline. Setting up the Necrons to be utterly emotionless and devoid of personality was a mistake in the first place, because we, the people who actually play these games and spend hours writing backstories for our fictional armies, aren't soulless. It limits the ability of the true creative force in Gamesworkshop (ie, us) to re-using the same concepts again and again.

It's a lot like the complaints the Tau recieved when they first came out. Nobody WANTS to hear a story about a race of people that all get along really well, and never argue, and share, and talk about their feelings. That's just boring. Equally boring is the story of a bunch of robots that just kill things without feeling any emotion other then hate.


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin

The average 'foot 'cron' might be souless and emotionless, but their leaders aren't. I think that this is an aspect that maybe is going to be getting played up more in their next iteration. If so, maybe that is what that small piece of fluff was getting at, that their is _some kind_ of emotion guiding the Necrons, although one that is much more calculating and cold when compared to Humanity.
After all, the Necrons have had millenia to brood on thier predicament, should we expect them to be anything less than reptilian-ly cold? Also, a thought of mine, the new 'dex might bw showing us an 'evolution' of what we know as we are initiated deeper into the race. So, the new C: GK showed us more of the reality of a Chapter full of Psykers who live Daemonancy as thier primary goal and _raison d'etre_; in the first 'dex, it was as if we, the player, was an untrusted Imperial Citizen who was being shown the outer layers of the GK to show them as pure paragons of faith, not the blood-stained monsters that this forces them to be. So, too, we are finding more out about the Necrons. We are Ordo Xenos, our knowledge increasing as more Tombworlds awake- now this metal race aren't automata, but as more of thier kind awake and their technology with them, so their truer nature becomes apparent. Not servants, but cheated masters of a legacy they revile.
Whilst many won't enjoy looking at it this way, I find it is a good way to make large changes in fluff and tone a part of an overarching whole. I do love me some fluff!

GFP


----------



## ThatOtherGuy

I all for most of the new fluff. The only part that irks me is the downgrading of the C'tan in the modern setting. For masters of the materium to be sunk to levels equivalent of a land speeder is a little low blow for Necron fans.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Yup, that's my biggest grievance with the C'Tan change but I can see why it happened. They were too similar to the Chaos powers in their long term plans and how they were viewed.


----------



## jaysen

Instead of downgrading C'tan, they should have just limited them to Apoc games.


----------



## Serpion5

If anything, the c`tan were made out to be more powerful in terms of fluff. 

They seem to be described as beings of almost infinite power. Nothing has been said of their numbers here, but for all we know that could have been reduced. 

That such a small shard of their power is GD equivalent does not sound like nerfing to me (except in TT, but this is not that forum).


----------



## Farseer Darvaleth

Serpion5 said:


> If anything, the c`tan were made out to be more powerful in terms of fluff.
> 
> They seem to be described as beings of almost infinite power. Nothing has been said of their numbers here, but for all we know that could have been reduced.
> 
> That such a small shard of their power is GD equivalent does not sound like nerfing to me (except in TT, but this is not that forum).


And now the fluff has made them _even more_ powerful. To avoid total retconning (I think that's the right term) the previous C'tan we see in our current dex (Deceiver and Nightbringer) turn out to only be shards. Those profiles are shards of the full C'tan (albeit slightly larger shards than we expect from our newest elite choice) but still not the full power.

This also explains how a group of Dark Eldar and Space Marines made "the Nightbringer" "run away". It was only a shard.

So now that these incredible, super-beings have been described as mere shards of their full power.... jeez. I'd be horrified to see the shards of any C'tan united once more into its full form. Well, not horrified, seeing as I play Necrons, but you know what I mean. :laugh:


This will be the basis of my army's fluff. A Lord has dedicated himself to recovering all the shards of one particular C'tan (the good ol' Deceiver, most likely) and uniting them once more, so that the C'tan can take full ascendancy once more, and use his infinite powers to reward the loyal Lord. It'd be like a domino effect; the more shards he collects and unites, the more powerful the reforming C'tan becomes, the easier it is to take more shards, etc.


But just think of the Nightbringer at full strength. I mean, having that statline and only being a shadow of his full power? Scary.


----------



## Serpion5

There is no info yet on specific c`tan. 

Their influence in established lore may be attributed to some other factor rather than simple shards. 


Also Darvy, given what you just said, the goal of your Necron Lord will conflict heavily with the goals of Misery and his cohort.


----------



## Farseer Darvaleth

Don't worry, Shadow will still be a selfish bastard. This is a different Lord, who is accompanied by two Lord Pariahs who together bear the consciousness of the Thoughtwalker, a C'tan who was fully defeated but not before he transcended the mortal plain and became a Thought. As long as his followers bear the Thought, he lives on.

It was my way of keeping a C'tan alive after the previous fluff stating only four remained, as he technically wasn't a C'tan at all, but simple thoughts. Now that more C'tan are about the idea seems a little less special.


----------



## Wusword77

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> And now the fluff has made them _even more_ powerful. To avoid total retconning (I think that's the right term) the previous C'tan we see in our current dex (Deceiver and Nightbringer) turn out to only be shards. Those profiles are shards of the full C'tan (albeit slightly larger shards than we expect from our newest elite choice) but still not the full power.
> 
> This also explains how a group of Dark Eldar and Space Marines made "the Nightbringer" "run away". It was only a shard.


New Fluff doesn't erase the old fluff. I'm looking forward to seeing how the C'Tan are explained in the new fluff but I think the Nightbringer found in the UM novel was the legit Nightbringer.

Plus they made it run away by threatening to bring the mountain down on it's head so it would never get out. They didn't beat it in terms of combat, they made a bargain and the Nightbringer took the tactical withdrawal.


----------



## Farseer Darvaleth

Wusword77 said:


> New Fluff doesn't erase the old fluff.


I disagree. For isn't that exactly what they're doing with the new dex? They have written in the current fluff that only four C'tan exist. Now, in rumoured new fluff, there are plenty of them but they're all shards. Sounds pretty different to me.



> Plus they made it run away by threatening to bring the mountain down on it's head so it would never get out. They didn't beat it in terms of combat, they made a bargain and the Nightbringer took the tactical withdrawal.


This only proves the point that it was a shard. C'tan are "Immune to Natural Law" (QFT) and the Nightbringer, if he had been at his full power, could've easily floated away out of the mountain. Heck he could even have chopped his way out if he felt bored. The only explanation is: he was a shard. The part of him which knew how, and had the ability, to phase through solid matter simply wasn't there, and the new fluff seems to suggest that the "shards" contain different pieces and skills of each C'tan; hence the rumoured "choose two abilities" for their rules. Also, if it had been the full Nightbringer, he wouldn't given a toss about some Marines and Eldar. Heck even in the 40k game his shard (our current rules) could squish the lot of them. :laugh:


----------



## ThatOtherGuy

Serpion5 said:


> If anything, the c`tan were made out to be more powerful in terms of fluff.
> 
> They seem to be described as beings of almost infinite power. Nothing has been said of their numbers here, but for all we know that could have been reduced.
> 
> That such a small shard of their power is GD equivalent does not sound like nerfing to me (except in TT, but this is not that forum).


But the sad part is that they got their asses handed to them on a silver platter by the necrons. So much for beings of infinite power.


----------



## LukeValantine

My qeustion is will some c'tan be whole. For instance it wouln't change the fluf much to have 1-2 c'tan that escaped like the viod dragon, or outsider. I also like this idea for it opens up even further possibilities.


----------



## aboytervigon

Well I would rather the void dragons be in pieces than being at full strength and being almost destroyed by the emperor.


----------



## Wusword77

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> I disagree. For isn't that exactly what they're doing with the new dex? They have written in the current fluff that only four C'tan exist. Now, in rumoured new fluff, there are plenty of them but they're all shards. Sounds pretty different to me.


The new fluff expands on the previous fluff, which is what GW has always said. The new fluff does not "replace" the older fluff, as too many contradictions would arise between BL publications and codex fluff.

At this point anything we say is just pure speculation so it really doesn't matter.


> This only proves the point that it was a shard. C'tan are "Immune to Natural Law" (QFT) and the Nightbringer, if he had been at his full power, could've easily floated away out of the mountain. Heck he could even have chopped his way out if he felt bored. The only explanation is: he was a shard. The part of him which knew how, and had the ability, to phase through solid matter simply wasn't there, and the new fluff seems to suggest that the "shards" contain different pieces and skills of each C'tan; hence the rumoured "choose two abilities" for their rules. Also, if it had been the full Nightbringer, he wouldn't given a toss about some Marines and Eldar. Heck even in the 40k game his shard (our current rules) could squish the lot of them. :laugh:


In the book Nightbringer it is stated that the C'Tan had just been awoken after sleeping from before the Necrons went to sleep. The Star God's power was completely drained by being imprisoned within the mountain, cut off from it's power source (the stars). There is a full explanation given in the book by McNeil.

Hell the book begins by telling us how the Nightbringer (or at least his ship) was brought down by the Old Ones forces.


----------



## Rems

Well actually GW's official stance is that everything's canon and nothing's canon, so essentially you can pick and choose what you'd like to believe based on what you feel makes the most sense or has the most evidence supporting it. 

In regards to the Nightbringer's 'defeat' in Nightbringer, at the time of writing that was in fact the real Nightbringer. It was very close to death after millennia of starving and lacked the strength to escape if Uriel brought down the mountain. With the change in fluff you could however change it to a shard and nothing would be different.


----------



## Serpion5

ThatOtherGuy said:


> But the sad part is that they got their asses handed to them on a silver platter by the necrons. So much for beings of infinite power.


Thing is, the c`tan also empowered the necrons to be their unstoppable servants. Despite this, we do not know for sure what the cost of victory was. What we know of their empire could have been much larger before the c`tan war.



Rems said:


> In regards to the Nightbringer's 'defeat' in Nightbringer, at the time of writing that was in fact the real Nightbringer. It was very close to death after millennia of starving and lacked the strength to escape if Uriel brought down the mountain. With the change in fluff you could however change it to a shard and nothing would be different.


Exactly. In fact, the fact that *the Nightbringer chose to flee* lends credibility to the idea that it was only the shard of a god. If the fluff is to be believable in new terms, then the idea of *being trapped under rocks* makes no sense at all. 

Especially given that *it then proceeded to tunnel out of the mountain anyway*, taking its necrons with it. (McNeill, WTF?)


----------



## Grins1878

AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH said:


> retconning fluff to make his bullshit more believable


I thought that's what all modern fluff is? :biggrin:

Armoured spacemen conquering the galaxy, spore created aliens who love war, aliens who make all life into a soup to make more of their own?

It's all a load of cobblers when it comes down to it, but it's good cobblers. I think it's fair do's!

:biggrin:


----------



## VulkansNodosaurus

Personally, I very much support this change- it makes the Necrons actual beings (instead of Tyranids 2.0) and gives them actual goals (instead of simply "kill everything"). That is, it makes Necrons a more complex and diverse army, while simultaneously making them more sympathetic, but still dark.

This change allows the existence of Necron subfactions, and I think that's great.


----------



## Vaz

McNeil writes bullshit.

But unlike Ward, he can actually tell a story with it.


----------



## -Bosco-

At first I thought this new fluff about the c'tan was stupid but thinking on it, it kind of works out better. Though the Necron's fighting and C'tan at full power doesn't work for me, hopefully we'll see it in the fluff that they take the chance when the c'tan are weakened to strike, The Dragon after he was hurt by the Talismans. The Outsider being in the Dyson Sphere could now work because what other race could of built one, the Necrons could of caught him snacking on the sun and imprisoned him there. The Nightbringer after his battle with Khaine. The Deceiver should not be in pieces though.


----------



## Nicholas Hadrian

Personally, when I read the white dwarf and saw the stuff about the Newcrons (yes, I'm calling them Newcrons. Shut up.) I hated it and for the first time, felt WAAARDRAGE that I could not contain. Someone here best described it as a disservice to the fans, and that was how I felt, the original Necron je-nes-sais-quoi gone, no more horrifying galtactic terror.

Then...I thought about it, read a few posts and... much like a fungus it started to grow on me

As I thought about it the more the fluff actually worked together and still complimented each other.

Necrontyr evolve -> War in Heaven -> Faustian bargain for immortality with C'tan -> C'tan take control, eliminate life in the galaxy, Silent King finally breaks control, gets wise and helps overthrow and rebel against the C'tan, sends his people to sleep while he figgers out a way to undo things, locking up some of the still surviving whole C'tan-> A few C'tan, most notably the Deciver wake up and escape, take control of some Oldcrons and start slaughtering things, Some Newcrons wake up, get pissed about the whole suituation, teach the C'tan a lesson again, and figure "Eh we're up, we might as well get started on that whole Empire building thing while we wait for the Silent King to come back"

There, everything flows together no actual re-writes or rectons and still manages to establish new fluff, take things in a new direction and gives deference to the old fluff.
Even if it's not true, it's my story and I'm gonna stick to it anyway.


Also...


Serpion5 said:


> = At least, not universally. I highly doubt Dante would be leading a force composed entirely of Death Company.


Even though they're alot better the Sanguinary guard on the table, Serp?


----------



## jaysen

Serpion5 said:


> Blood Angels are honourable astartes who value the art of war, they are by no means "rabid death seekers." At least, not universally. I highly doubt Dante would be leading a force composed entirely of Death Company.


Errmm... from the eyes of a xenos scumbag enemy, I'm sure most Astartes seem a lot like rabid death seekers. They exterminate all xenos wherever they go, with little to no remorse.

Yeah, I doubt anyone would be leading a whole force of death company anywhere. But, in all fairness, the Black Rage is somewhat random and can be caused by outside factors. Dante wouldn't have any control over it.


----------



## Nicholas Hadrian

jaysen said:


> Dante wouldn't have any control over it.


*Cough*

*gives Chaplain Lemartes a sidealong glance*


----------



## Farseer Darvaleth

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> *Cough*
> 
> *gives Chaplain Lemartes a sidealong glance*


*cough* Vlad von Carstein -err I mean *cough* Chaos Lord Vampire -errr not that one *cough* Mephiston *cough* :laugh:


----------



## jaysen

I mean that if Dante were in control of a Battle Company and for some reason the Black Rage took over the entire Company, there's nothing Dante could do about it. He can't pick and choose who does or doesn't succumb to the flaw.


----------



## Serpion5

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> Personally, when I read the white dwarf and saw the stuff about the Newcrons (yes, I'm calling them Newcrons. Shut up.) I hated it and for the first time, felt WAAARDRAGE that I could not contain. Someone here best described it as a disservice to the fans, and that was how I felt, the original Necron je-nes-sais-quoi gone, no more horrifying galtactic terror.
> 
> Then...I thought about it, read a few posts and... much like a fungus it started to grow on me
> 
> As I thought about it the more the fluff actually worked together and still complimented each other.
> 
> Necrontyr evolve -> War in Heaven -> Faustian bargain for immortality with C'tan -> C'tan take control, eliminate life in the galaxy, Silent King finally breaks control, gets wise and helps overthrow and rebel against the C'tan, sends his people to sleep while he figgers out a way to undo things, locking up some of the still surviving whole C'tan-> A few C'tan, most notably the Deciver wake up and escape, take control of some Oldcrons and start slaughtering things, Some Newcrons wake up, get pissed about the whole suituation, teach the C'tan a lesson again, and figure "Eh we're up, we might as well get started on that whole Empire building thing while we wait for the Silent King to come back"
> 
> There, everything flows together no actual re-writes or rectons and still manages to establish new fluff, take things in a new direction and gives deference to the old fluff.
> Even if it's not true, it's my story and I'm gonna stick to it anyway.


At least you`re not as close minded as some people I know.



> Even though they're alot better the Sanguinary guard on the table, Serp?


If TT stats mattered in fluff, I`d bring them up. But they don`t, so your point here is completely moot. Dante fights among his Sanguine Guard because they are his elite. He does not fight among Death Company because they have better "rules."


----------



## Nicholas Hadrian

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> *cough* Vlad von Carstein -err I mean *cough* Chaos Lord Vampire -errr not that one *cough* Mephiston *cough* :laugh:


Got something caught in your throat dude?



Serpion5 said:


> If TT stats mattered in fluff, I`d bring them up. But they don`t, so your point here is completely moot. Dante fights among his Sanguine Guard because they are his elite. He does not fight among Death Company because they have better "rules."


Meh, I'm just teasin ya .


----------



## kavyanshrike

Aramoro said:


> But that's not what they're doing. They're just making it so they don't feed their entire Tomb World into a trash compacter for no reason. Picking and choosing which battles are sensible is a better application of pure logic than suffering horrific losses from your hubris.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mortal champions enter Khrones realm and get Juggernaughts there, juggernaughts are purely Daemons so how do they pass so easily to the mortal realm? God did it, that's is the answer to every question about the warp.
> 
> 
> 
> Draigo exists as a Daemon, he can only enter the mortal realm through warp rifts and gets sucked back into the Daemon realm when it closes like Daemons do. Presumably this is through the curse the Daemon put on him. You're trying to apply logic to a realm where there is no passage of time, no sense of dimensions, no natural law. They can do whatever they like.


but necrons have no need to care about there own asualties as they can just go and repair them and it dosent make them anyway near as scary it makes them more like space marines or eldar


----------



## shiftystylin

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> *cough* Vlad von Carstein -err I mean *cough* Chaos Lord Vampire -errr not that one *cough* Mephiston *cough* :laugh:


Sounds like a bad cough. Should get it checked out by the docs!

Erm... I'll be honest, I don't know much about the 40k "multiverse" or whatever but one thing I do know is that the Necrons were released to be mindless killing machines, a point that has been re-iterated time and time again. But GW have decided that isn't how they want them to be. Fair play?

Two of my work colleagues were discussing the launch of the new Necron's to be false to their original purpose, that the elites suddenly had personalities.
My point. *"In such a dangerous galaxy, Trazyn is loath to go out and explore it himself, but with so many exquisite artefacts to see and catalogue, he cannot afford to miss out"*. This to me, implies they are now sentient. This guy is characterised as enjoying a collection of stamps or whatever. Or maybe its that he is programmed to function for this purpose? Either way, he seems to have rational (or maybe irrational) thought. If that's the case, why can they not have a rational (or irrational) alliance with another army?

But aside from that fact, doesn't this all span from an excerpt from the BA codex? I don't have either a BA codex or Necron codex but my understanding is something to do with a stand-off between Commander Dante's force and a necron force, then *shock-horror*, nidz interrupt and start to fuck everything up? I think that would kinda put it into perspective for any two sentient armies when there is a third invading army that's sole purpose is for pure fuck-uppery (destruction).


----------



## Iron Angel

Lord of the Night said:


> Well actually the overuling part does have some basis in sense.
> 
> Apparently Necrons can mentally 'degrade' over time and become ravening monsters, incapable of thought, the ability to take orders or even sanity. The Triarchs role is likely to act as the enforcers of their Lord, but also to watch him and keep their eyes peeled for signs of degradation. Because a degraded Lord could make a foolish move in his insanity that could cost them victory, and the Triarchs role would be to overrule him and make sure that only the correct steps are taken, not the wrong ones.
> 
> 
> 
> That is what they are yes but frankly I think that they are still that. In _Fall of Damnos_ the Necrons are based somewhat on the new information, and they still come across as the eerie unstoppable force that you said. They advance relentlessly into enemy fire, their guns still strip the flesh and soul from their targets and they are still terrifying to fight. The only difference is now they have some personality to go with it.
> 
> There is a scene when Iulus Fennion, an Ultramarines Sergeant, grapples with a Necron Immortal. It picks him up and says "You are going to die mortal." The older Necrons never spoke at all but that one line is very terrifying, never speaking at all just makes them seem distant, but the few lines the Necrons actually give in the novel make them seem far more alien and horrifying as it really gives an insight into their mindset. But no more than the ultimatum to the armies of Damnos, "Surrender and die."
> 
> As for valuing honour, we don't know why. Maybe they are trying to hold onto a last gasp of who they used to be as a way to deny that they, as a race are slowly degrading into a fate worse than death, which is what they were trying to escape in the first place.
> 
> 
> Lord of the Night


Necrons didn't need "personality". You can take your humans and your eldar with their little "emotions" and "compassion" and shove them. The necrons used to be a terrifying, implacable war machine. They could not be bargained with. They could not be reasoned with. The only thing they want is for you to die and to feed your soul to their gods. You can't argue or bribe or even escape. All you can do is fight back and futilely stave off the inevitability of your death. But then Newcrons came out and now you can bargain with them and they parley and they even ignore- _ingore!_- living beings sometimes. This is utter horseshit, and anyone who is "okay" with the new fluff would probably be more "okay" with Tomb Kings fluff.

We didn't need personality. We were cold, calculating, unsatisfiable, inescapable visages of death with only one goal: Your complete annihilation. Now we have feelings and quirks and petty squabbles.

I still stand by my reasoning that the reason for this is because Necrons and Tyranids were the two largest and most legitimate threats to the galaxy. The pariahs and the obelisks threatened the war, and thus thretened everything that wasn't a Necron, as well as being basically immortal and indestructible. Tyranids are basically the same, there are too many and there are even more out there, and when you kill them, they just get reabsorbed and their biomass is used to make another. They are like organic Necrons. Thats why both got nerfed- They threatened the supremacy of SPESS MEHRENS and CHAOS SPESS MEHRENS. They had to go. GW will be damned if anything threatens their boy scouts versus troublemakers desired storyline. Xenos are celarly secondary considerations. GW had the ability to do something unique with Necrons with the 5th ed writeup but passed on that to rip off Stargate.

Next, you'll start seeing named Tyranid ICs that talk to and threaten worlds they are about to devour that can be bargained with to go around your planet instead, and each hive fleet will turn on the other hive fleets in competition, and carnifexes will plot to overthrow Old One Eye.


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## Deadeye776

Iron Angel said:


> Necrons didn't need "personality". You can take your humans and your eldar with their little "emotions" and "compassion" and shove them. The necrons used to be a terrifying, implacable war machine. They could not be bargained with. They could not be reasoned with. The only thing they want is for you to die and to feed your soul to their gods. You can't argue or bribe or even escape. All you can do is fight back and futilely stave off the inevitability of your death. But then Newcrons came out and now you can bargain with them and they parley and they even ignore- _ingore!_- living beings sometimes. This is utter horseshit, and anyone who is "okay" with the new fluff would probably be more "okay" with Tomb Kings fluff.
> 
> We didn't need personality. We were cold, calculating, unsatisfiable, inescapable visages of death with only one goal: Your complete annihilation. Now we have feelings and quirks and petty squabbles.
> 
> I still stand by my reasoning that the reason for this is because Necrons and Tyranids were the two largest and most legitimate threats to the galaxy. The pariahs and the obelisks threatened the war, and thus thretened everything that wasn't a Necron, as well as being basically immortal and indestructible. Tyranids are basically the same, there are too many and there are even more out there, and when you kill them, they just get reabsorbed and their biomass is used to make another. They are like organic Necrons. Thats why both got nerfed- They threatened the supremacy of SPESS MEHRENS and CHAOS SPESS MEHRENS. They had to go. GW will be damned if anything threatens their boy scouts versus troublemakers desired storyline. Xenos are celarly secondary considerations. GW had the ability to do something unique with Necrons with the 5th ed writeup but passed on that to rip off Stargate.
> 
> Next, you'll start seeing named Tyranid ICs that talk to and threaten worlds they are about to devour that can be bargained with to go around your planet instead, and each hive fleet will turn on the other hive fleets in competition, and carnifexes will plot to overthrow Old One Eye.


 

Completely agree


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## Serpion5

Oh look. Something different in a newcron thread.  


...wait, nevermind.  


IA, it is somewhat ironic that you are against the necs having personality when even _your own_ necron characters do.


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## Septok

Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but the quote in the OP is wrong.



> Triarch Ptaetorians: These used to be effectively the 'police' (my term) of the main Necron ruler (the last of which was the Silent King) to help enforce his will onto the Lords of the Empire. *They are known to respect great warriors and honor valor and have sometimes ordered Necron Overlords to stop attacking a foe they deemed worthy of respect *(much to the Lord's chagrin). They are Jump Infantry with a 6" AP2 S5 weapon. They can swap that out for Void Blades (a weapon with Rending and the same Entriopic ability that Scarabs have) and Particle Casters (a pistol weapon). No transport option.


The underlined bit. They actually order that the old Necrontyr Codes of Battle be upheld against them (5th ed Necron codex, page 38). They don't stop the Necrons attacking them.

Plus, I also hate the fact Mat Ward was chosen to write the new Necron codex. Some bits are cool - the concept of the Triarch and Lychguard, but then he's screwed up loads else.


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## Reaper45

Septok said:


> Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but the quote in the OP is wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> The underlined bit. They actually order that the old Necrontyr Codes of Battle be upheld against them (5th ed Necron codex, page 38). They don't stop the Necrons attacking them.
> 
> Plus, I also hate the fact Mat Ward was chosen to write the new Necron codex. Some bits are cool - the concept of the Triarch and Lychguard, but then he's screwed up loads else.


He didn't write the codex. He was handed a half finished codex and was told to finish it. 

We have no idea what parts are his and what parts were already done. It's a good codex. and as far as I am concerned if you're bitching about the fluff you aren't playing the game.


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## Deadeye776

I'm sorry but this addittion does not make the Necrons seem like scarier cyborg spectres of death. It makes them seem like exactly what I've been saying. Agreeable and a LOT more reasonable robots. Your telling me that they have something can be appealed to now. They can be brought to reason through respect. Pretty sure tyranids will never reach that type of reasonability. Stick with me here and see my reasoning. The first Terminator movie. The relentless pursuit. The explanation of John Connor to Sarah's horror that this thing cannot be reasoned with, bargained with, and will never sleep, eat, or rest until she's dead. It was its sole reason for existence. It was a force of nature in its singular will and purpose. 

Imagine the Terminator came to respect Sarah Connor's resistance and then allowed her to live. Yes in the later movies the Terminator aided the Connor's but that was only on programming, not by choice. The reason, besides Arnold, those movies were so bad assed is they represented an armageddon due to cold technological will. They didn't need human personality. They had a collective will to eradicate humanity. It was one of the best franchises in movie history. So written properly this type of thing is not only possible but wildly successful. Good times.


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