# Tyranids in the 30th Millenium



## spacemonkey (Apr 26, 2009)

Hi Folks.

How do you feel the Imperium would have managed with comparable Tyranid invasions as seen in the (current) 40K timeline?

In one of the Horus Heresy novels (I forget which) it takes a significant portion of both the Blood Angels and the Luna Wolves Legions, including each Legions respective Primarch's to pacify the planet (Murder as I recall)

Could you imagine the Imperium in it's prime having to resort to the desperate scorched earth (planet) strategy for example?

Would a less dogmatic, more invigorated Mechanicus have been able to show the same technological "flexibility" as seen by the Tau?

Thanks.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

The Hive Fleets would've had 10,000 years LESS of evolution involved facing up against a UNITED Imperium of Man with virtually no distractions (as we know them in the current 40k universe). Tyranids would've been fekked had they came in back then.


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## Ultra1 (Mar 10, 2011)

i completely agree, one of the largest tyranid invasions was stoped by the ultramarines chapter, which was far smaller than the ultramarine legion of the year 30K. tyranids would've been all but eradicated. not to mention we still had primarchs, who can take on just about anything.


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## ChaosDefilerofUlthuan (Jan 25, 2011)

Ultra1 said:


> i completely agree, one of the largest tyranid invasions was stoped by the ultramarines chapter, which was far smaller than the ultramarine legion of the year 30K. tyranids would've been all but eradicated. not to mention we still had primarchs, who can take on just about anything.


But then again Ultramarines are seen as the best of the best so in a proper battle all being fair they would never have been able to do that so you have GW fluff writers to thank forgiving wider minded people the ability to kick the power armour of those snobbish marine players who where so distracted by Black Reach they didn't look for wider armies like Tau, Chaos or Nids. Not even other marine variants


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Hey Don't forget thhe emperor would have been there also...All in all a bad day for the Nids.

Doc


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

ChaosDefilerofUlthuan said:


> But then again Ultramarines are seen as the best of the best so in a proper battle all being fair they would never have been able to do that so you have GW fluff writers to thank forgiving wider minded people the ability to kick the power armour of those snobbish marine players who where so distracted by Black Reach they didn't look for wider armies like Tau, Chaos or Nids. Not even other marine variants


Imagine 250,000 Ultramarines facing off against the entire Hive Fleets.

While I'm not fond of the Smurfs, that'd have been an insanely impressive sight.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Hey!!! Why do my Ultramarines never get any love? It would be an incredible sight with Gulliman and the Emperor Leading them.

Doc


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

docgeo said:


> Hey!!! Why do my Ultramarines never get any love? It would be an incredible sight with Gulliman and the Emperor Leading them.
> 
> Doc



Because they're Smurfs in Power Armour?

Compare that sight to my army:

Vikings in Power Armour

Guess which army's theme song strikes fear in the hearts of others & who's theme song is aimed at 6 year olds?


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

hahahahahahha...you suck brother! Ultramarines can strike fear in people...yes...yes they can!

Doc


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

docgeo said:


> hahahahahahha...you suck brother! Ultramarines can strike fear in people...yes...yes they can!
> 
> Doc


I see a well ordered line of men in blue armor, "Ok Tau shoot to your hearts content. Oh yeah make sure you bring out the tanks too."

I see an unorganized slavering half wolf men in greyish armor with barbaric tokens on their armor, "Yeah kroot charge, everybody else I'll meet you in space."

I don't like Gman he comes across as a giant db with the personality of his armor. The Smurfs in general come across as codex humpers.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

locustgate said:


> I see a well ordered line of men in blue armor, "Ok Tau shoot to your hearts content. Oh yeah make sure you bring out the tanks too."
> 
> I see an unorganized slavering half wolf men in greyish armor with barbaric tokens on their armor, "Yeah kroot charge, everybody else I'll meet you in space."
> 
> I don't like Gman he comes across as a giant db with the personality of his armor. The Smurfs in general come across as codex humpers.



I'm trying to think....has their been any official books with Tau vs. Space Wolves?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Diatribe1974 said:


> I'm trying to think....has their been any official books with Tau vs. Space Wolves?


None that I know there's 1 vs the smurfs ofcourse.
I have to say out of all the loyal SM the SW are my favorite, but I still hate them.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Diatribe1974 said:


> Tyranids would've been fekked had they came in back then.


I wouldn't be so quick to conclude. The Imperium was obviously more unified, driven and powerful back then. But the true extent of the Great Devourer still isn't known. All the Hive Fleets that have thus far entered the galaxy are generally considered to be _"scouts"_, and yet they have still consumed countless systems, wiped out numerous species, and have encroached alarmingly close to Terra. The Tyranids are a cohesive force (bound by the Hive Mind) which have consumed entire galaxys, and the true extent of their power and numbers are said to give the inhabitants of our galaxy absolutley no hope whatsoever. If this is true, I can't see the Imperium of 30k standing much more of a chance. Although having the Emperor alive and kicking would be a major plus.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I wouldn't be so quick to conclude. The Imperium was obviously more unified, driven and powerful back then. But the true extent of the Great Devourer still isn't known. All the Hive Fleets that have thus far entered the galaxy are generally considered to be _"scouts"_, and yet they have still consumed countless systems, wiped out numerous species, and have encroached alarmingly close to Terra. The Tyranids are a cohesive force (bound by the Hive Mind) which have consumed entire galaxys, and the true extent of their power and numbers are said to give the inhabitants of our galaxy absolutley no hope whatsoever. If this is true, I can't see the Imperium of 30k standing much more of a chance. Although having the Emperor alive and kicking would be a major plus.


Also I wouldn't be so quick to conclude about the Tyranid's numbers. What if the main fleet came there was only like two hive fleets?... that were half the size of Hive fleet Kraken.

Besides, a giant horde of ravaging insects is soooooo 2001.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

locustgate said:


> I see an unorganized slavering half wolf men in greyish armor with barbaric tokens on their armor, "Yeah kroot charge, everybody else I'll meet you in space."


And that is why they would end up kicking your ass. :smoke:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ThatOtherGuy said:


> Also I wouldn't be so quick to conclude about the Tyranid's numbers. What if the main fleet came there was only like two hive fleets?... that were half the size of Hive fleet Kraken.


Generally speaking it is near-certain that what is to come from the Tyranids is much more than what has currently been seen.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> And that is why they would end up kicking your ass. :smoke:



Considering how the 13th Company has survived in the Eye of Terror for 10,000 years now, it's hard to put down these silly puppy men, eh?


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Generally speaking it is near-certain that what is to come from the Tyranids is much more than what has currently been seen.


For all we know, there is no greater fleet... Just clever marketing skills by GW.

You know, the whole idea of the "Age of Ending" crap is that the Imperium is truly never going to fall. The Tyranids are never going to come in full numbers. The Eldar are never going to die off. The Necrons are never going to awake in full numbers. The Orks are not going to get their shit together. Abbadon is never going to destroy the Imperium along side with Chaos. The Tau are... well... who gives a shit about them anyways. Thats the truth about 40k... they live on a floating time line of perpetual purgatory.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

ThatOtherGuy said:


> For all we know, there is no greater fleet... Just clever marketing skills by GW.
> 
> You know, the whole idea of the "Age of Ending" crap is that the Imperium is truly never going to fall. The Tyranids are never going to come in full numbers. The Eldar are never going to die off. The Necrons are never going to awake in full numbers. The Orks are not going to get their shit together. Abbadon is never going to destroy the Imperium along side with Chaos. The Tau are... well... who gives a shit about them anyways. Thats the truth about 40k... they live on a floating time line of perpetual purgatory.


Thank you for restatting the samething that has been said thousands of times.
P.S. Your wrong about the Tau some people do play the Tau.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Diatribe1974 said:


> Considering how the 13th Company has survived in the Eye of Terror for 10,000 years now, it's hard to put down these silly puppy men, eh?


Well, time works in funny ways where the eye is concerned, but yeah. The wolves just appear to be disorganized savages, when in reality they are nothing of the sort.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I don't believe there is that massive a force of a Tyranid Hive Fleet. To believe that, would be to make a big assumption that their is indeed that much life beyond the galaxy we all know. And how could a huge fleet sustain itself? The "scout" fleets are having trouble maintaining themselves by devouring huge systems. This huge fleet would need to be consuming galaxies just to maintain itself. And when its not, how does it sustain its size?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Tyranids are a cohesive force (bound by the Hive Mind) which have consumed entire galaxys, and the true extent of their power and numbers are said to give the inhabitants of our galaxy absolutley no hope whatsoever. If this is true, I can't see the Imperium of 30k standing much more of a chance. Although having the Emperor alive and kicking would be a major plus.


I find it interesting how previously, you've stated that the return of a Primarch (*insert 500% increase for Imperium in productivity to overcome incoming Tyranid Swarm quote) would result in nothing life-saving/major plus occurring in the 40k Imperium (and correct me if I am wrong, but did you also say the same thing about the revival of the Emperor?) where it is stronger than in the past but admittedly also faces stronger/numerous enemies and is of a very backwards-religious mindset which is detrimental to many facets of their empire.

But at the same time, I would argue that their newfound military strength and experience gathered over the thousands of years would more than make up for any deficiencies the Imperium has obtained post HH.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

People need to remember a couple things:

1) In the 30k universe, did the Tyranids appear, they'd have had 10,000 years LESS of their "Eat, Consume, Evolve" that's helped make them as bad-ass as they are today. With that being said, for all we know, they could've spawned in the previous galaxy and was the dominate species, full of wussy pansy species and stood not much of a challenge to them. Did they appear before the current 40k timeframe, they might've lacked the serious strength needed to stand the chance they now have today.

2) We're also talking about a UNITED Imperium of Man. Wherein the Primarchs are all around. The Eye of Terror isn't around because we still have them all united to the Emperor, who is, btw, still kicking as well. The current Space Marine Chapters (in 30k universe) were huge and thriving. Imagine just the presence of the Ultramarines alone, headed up by Roboute Guilliman, fielding those 250,000 troops at the Hive Fleets. In 40k universe, they're breaking the "Scout" Hive Fleets with (at most), 1,000 Space Marines and NO primarchs. NO Emperor, but just the Emperor and the cannon fodder Imperial Guard.

Imagine the Emperor telling Horus, Guilliman and Russ to send their troops in and "Deal with the Space Bugs." I'm sorry, but the 'Nids back then, were toast.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

@diatribe: At the same time, it can be argued that if a scouting party of the Hive fleet has accomplished so much with so little of their numbers, than truly the Imperium/galaxy stands no chance should the majority of the Tyranid swarm enter the Imperium's dominion unless they bump up their productivity by 500%.

True, maybe the species the Tyranids consumed before encountering humanity were weak or whatnot but then again, given the fact that they did so much damage on their first encounter, it's hard to assume this.

True, the Imperium of 40k lack their Primarchs and the voice of the Emperor and have done a great deal in repelling the Tyranids but again, everything we've seen so far is but a mere shadow of the true threat they possess (much like the Necrons). And who knows what they've been holding back or what lies with their main fleets.

And as someone mentioned, if two legions of different Astartes had so much trouble with the planet Murder and it's alien-bug inhabitants, then what hope could the Imperium of Man pre-HH have against the ever evolving Tyranid swarm?

I think the only hope the Imperium/humanity has of surviving other than becoming 500% more efficient (which is perhaps impossible given current circumstances) is to make contact with the Interex and other offshoots of advanced colonies of humanity, and team up or/and ally with potentially friendly Xenos races.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Do keep in mind that it's not known that the Imperium would have to increase mobilization by 500%.

It's merely the conjecture of a single Strategic Intelligence Collective. (827/II to be precise).

This runs under the assumption that the current hive fleets are but a vanguard to a much larger force. Due to the freeze at M42, we really don't know if that's the case.

The 500% increased mobilization rate is an extrapolation based upon the assumption that the real Tyranid force has yet to be seen.

Also, 500% mobilization may not be as bad as it seems. Hive worlds tend to have populations in the tens of billions, yet often may only have a handful of million of men to defend it. Or something around .00025% under arms. (5 million out of twenty billion).

As a counterpoint, the United States has roughly half a percent of its population under active service, or .51 to be more precise. The United States has, per capita, around 2040 times more men under arms.

A more drastic example would be North Korea who has, according to Wiki, 4.8% of its population in active service. NK has almost 20,000 more men, per capita, than our fictional hiveworld.

(For those nay sayers, the 5th ED Rulebook gives us a Hive World with a population of 120 billion with a standing force of 10 million men--less than 1/6th than the Hive World I used.)

Perhaps a great majority of men are sent off planet to fight in the Guard. That's fair. But usually they're drawn from the PDF--and assuming that they decided to pick up the entire PDF force every year, that's still a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of the population. They could easily tithe a hundred times more every year and still be fine. Finding room to transport them would probably be the biggest problem.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

hailene said:


> Do keep in mind that it's not known that the Imperium would have to increase mobilization by 500%.
> 
> It's merely the conjecture of a single Strategic Intelligence Collective. (827/II to be precise).


True it was conjecture but GW threw that number in to give us an estimate of what the Imperium would have to do but at the same time, they knew that it was most likely impossible due to the myriad of threats that bombard the Imperium daily.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

That's what the Imperium would have to do if the currently known hive fleets were just advance forces and not a solid reflection of their true capabilities.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

hailene said:


> That's what the Imperium would have to do if the currently known hive fleets were just advance forces and not a solid reflection of their true capabilities.


Pretty sure it's based on the incoming Hive fleet which is a much larger portion of the Tyranid swarm but I may be wrong.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Page 27 of the 4th ED Tyranid codex. Under "Extrapolation"

I can quote it, it's a few paragraphs, but, yeah, it's all under the assumption that the real fleet is out there somewhere.


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

As far as I know the galaxy hadn't encountered any tyranids in the M30, around that time the tyrainds were in a different galaxy devouring all life. There is no record that mankind fought tyranids before M41?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I don't believe there is that massive a force of a Tyranid Hive Fleet. To believe that, would be to make a big assumption that their is indeed that much life beyond the galaxy we all know. And how could a huge fleet sustain itself? The "scout" fleets are having trouble maintaining themselves by devouring huge systems. This huge fleet would need to be consuming galaxies just to maintain itself. And when its not, how does it sustain its size?


All tyranid organisms, whether rippers or Hive ships, seem capable of entering a dormant state in which energy expenditure is all but ceased. It is not unreasonable to assume that they lay asleep at galaxy`s edge awaiting the call to move.



Karak The Unfaithful said:


> As far as I know the galaxy hadn't encountered any tyranids in the M30, around that time the tyrainds were in a different galaxy devouring all life. There is no record that mankind fought tyranids before M41?


The Hive Fleets themselves no. But Genestealers have been around for a long time. So where did they come from?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ThatOtherGuy said:


> For all we know, there is no greater fleet... Just clever marketing skills by GW.
> 
> You know, the whole idea of the "Age of Ending" crap is that the Imperium is truly never going to fall. The Tyranids are never going to come in full numbers. The Eldar are never going to die off. The Necrons are never going to awake in full numbers. The Orks are not going to get their shit together. Abbadon is never going to destroy the Imperium along side with Chaos. The Tau are... well... who gives a shit about them anyways. Thats the truth about 40k... they live on a floating time line of perpetual purgatory.


Were not talking about whether or not the 40k setting will further the timeline, that is irrelevent. If you havn't already, read the Tyranid codicies, there are greater hordes of Tyranids yet to come.

_"...the tendrils of the Hive Fleets push deeper into populated space whilst yet others approach from the intergalactic void, their vanguard elements just now beginning to penetrate the galaxy. So vast are the tendrils of the Hive Fleets that their trailing edges still slumber. The thought processes of the Hive Mind are gathering pace as more Tyranids wake and recall the age old purpose of their kind - feed, grow, survive. Only now are the inhabitants of the galaxy realising the scale of the threat they face; unless the Tyranids can be stopped, it will mean nothing less than extinction."_



ckcrawford said:


> This huge fleet would need to be consuming galaxies just to maintain itself. And when its not, how does it sustain its size?


They hibernate.



Malus Darkblade said:


> I find it interesting how previously, you've stated that the return of a Primarch (*insert 500% increase for Imperium in productivity to overcome incoming Tyranid Swarm quote) would result in nothing life-saving/major plus occurring in the 40k Imperium (and correct me if I am wrong, but did you also say the same thing about the revival of the Emperor?) where it is stronger than in the past but admittedly also faces stronger/numerous enemies and is of a very backwards-religious mindset which is detrimental to many facets of their empire.


Having the Emperor alive and kicking in 30k would be much more effective for humanity against the Tyranid threat as it would be in 40k. Im not saying having the Emperor present would result in defeat for the Tyranids, but it would obviously be a _"major plus"_.



Diatribe1974 said:


> The Eye of Terror isn't around...


The Eye of Terror was caused by the Fall of the Eldar, which occured pre-Imperium, so yes it still would have been there.



Diatribe1974 said:


> In 40k universe, they're breaking the "Scout" Hive Fleets with (at most), 1,000 Space Marines and NO primarchs.


Can I just point out that the Ultramarines Chapter did not defeat Hive Fleet Behemoth, the _entire_ might of the Ultramar Empire did (and then only because of the reckless strategies Behemoth adopted - which resulted in an inability to replenish biomass quicker than it was depleted - resulting in Behemoth effectively consuming itself). And before that Behemoth had "brought ruin and dismay to hundreds of star systems."



Karak The Unfaithful said:


> There is no record that mankind fought tyranids before M41?


Genestealers yes.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Karak The Unfaithful said:


> As far as I know the galaxy hadn't encountered any tyranids in the M30, around that time the tyrainds were in a different galaxy devouring all life. There is no record that mankind fought tyranids before M41?


We're not quite sure, but it seems that Tyranid (or Tyranid-like lifeforms) have been seen as early as m35.

Tiamet (m35), Ouroboris (m36), and Colossus (m38) may be possible hive fleets.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I think back in 30k the Primarchs, adapting Mechanicus, and the Emperor guiding it would have a better chance than Imeprium does now period. However all is not that bleak in 40K. Really. Look at Leviathon, held by a single Ork Empire. Hive Fleet Kraken, a crucial part was stopped by Craft World Iyaden. 

The Point? In 40k there is ALOT of other powerful races vying for power. Eldar still around, Necrons are waking, Orks are Waaaghing, and then the all favorite Eye of Terror/Maelstrom/Warp Storms that hide the powers of Chaos which seem to own Nids or even have them work for the Gods. So I wouldnt be worried about the bugs... because they're... bugs!


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> I think back in 30k the Primarchs, adapting Mechanicus, and the Emperor guiding it would have a better chance than Imeprium does now period. However all is not that bleak in 40K. Really. Look at Leviathon, held by a single Ork Empire. Hive Fleet Kraken, a crucial part was stopped by Craft World Iyaden.
> 
> The Point? In 40k there is ALOT of other powerful races vying for power. Eldar still around, Necrons are waking, Orks are Waaaghing, and then the all favorite Eye of Terror/Maelstrom/Warp Storms that hide the powers of Chaos which seem to own Nids or even have them work for the Gods. So I wouldnt be worried about the bugs... because they're... bugs!


Iyanden is essentially on its death bed as a result of Kraken, and that was only part of the Hive Fleet. Bear in mind that the other main section of the fleet was held up at Ichar IV by the Imperium, and many more subfleets were missed as they slipped through the defences. It was no easy task to stop the tyranids. Iyanden would have lost were it not for the intervention of Yriel`s corsair fleet, and even so it cost them dearly. Remember this before you belittle the tyranid threat. 

And as for the orks of Octarius, yet again you are omitting crucial info. Leviathan had already suffered a heavy loss at Tarsis Ultra, resulting in the destruction of a major subfleet. The remaining primary subfleet is engaging one of the largest ork empires in the galaxy on their home ground. I think the fact that the bugs haven`t been wiped out is testament to the tyranid prowess, not vice versa.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

locustgate said:


> I see a well ordered line of men in blue armor, "Ok Tau shoot to your hearts content. Oh yeah make sure you bring out the tanks too."
> 
> I see an unorganized slavering half wolf men in greyish armor with barbaric tokens on their armor, "Yeah kroot charge, everybody else I'll meet you in space."
> 
> I don't like Gman he comes across as a giant db with the personality of his armor. The Smurfs in general come across as codex humpers.



Hey be nice...they are a good solid army with lots of fluff and good history. They look nice painted up and are fun to play. Plus I have never said anything bad about those space communists with there cannibal partners.

Doc


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Iyanden is essentially on its death bed as a result of Kraken, and that was only part of the Hive Fleet.


Yet their still one of the more powerful Craftworlds thanx to their use of Wraiths. Iyaden is like, what, 1 of 100 Craftworlds that GW make up every few years for SMs or DoMs to destroy. 



Serpion5 said:


> Bear in mind that the other main section of the fleet was held up at Ichar IV by the Imperium, and many more subfleets were missed as they slipped through the defences. It was no easy task to stop the tyranids.


So again the second biggest Hive Fleet stopped dead at a single planet and a single Craftworld. Impressive.:laugh:



Serpion5 said:


> Iyanden would have lost were it not for the intervention of Yriel`s corsair fleet, and even so it cost them dearly.


Who is the whole fleet part of Iyaden. Whats your point? One Eldar with a Fleet can beat half a Hive Fleet? Point Taken.



Serpion5 said:


> Remember this before you belittle the tyranid threat.


Im not Belittle anything, your blowing them up more than they are. 



Serpion5 said:


> And as for the orks of Octarius, yet again you are omitting crucial info. Leviathan had already suffered a heavy loss at Tarsis Ultra, resulting in the destruction of a major subfleet.


Again a SINGLE planet that halted the approach of the Largest Hive Fleet yet. Still not impressed.



Serpion5 said:


> The remaining primary subfleet is engaging one of the largest ork empires in the galaxy on their home ground. I think the fact that the bugs haven`t been wiped out is testament to the tyranid prowess, not vice versa.


Yeah and Rynns world suffer one of the Largest WAAAGHs ever and beat it back with less than 300 Marines. Big Whoop.icknose:



My Ponit is Chaos, Necrons, Orks, and to a extant Eldar / Tau are all Major Players in the Galaxy which means even IF the Nids were to invade at full power the resistance from ALL the other superpowers along with the Imperium will beat them back. Then they can get rid of the sorry as Nids race like how the Nids got rid of the Squats! Seriously There is NO way for the Nids to EFFECTIVLY deal with All the Ork Empires, Eye of Terror/Maelstrom, and Tomb Worlds at all.:read: Yep They have no wins against the Warp, avoid Tomb Worlds, and fight eternal battles against the non extiguishable Orks.

Wait a sec, is the story about Maugan Ra taking out a Hive Ship worth of Nids praticly by himself? I cant remember. Maybe we just need more Phoenix Lords :laugh:.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Yet their still one of the more powerful Craftworlds thanx to their use of Wraiths. Iyaden is like, what, 1 of 100 Craftworlds that GW make up every few years for SMs or DoMs to destroy.


Granted, but that`s the way GW is. There is a lot of history to fill, and a lot we don`t know. My point is that Iyanded went from the strongest to almost dead because of a splinter fleet. A splinter fleet by definition is a _small_ part of a bigger fleet.



Warlock in Training said:


> So again the second biggest Hive Fleet stopped dead at a single planet and a single Craftworld. Impressive.:laugh:


No, two _splinter fleets_ (out of many more I should add) were stopped. The bulk of the fleet was divided, and still cost those factions dearly. Not to mention the hundred or so worlds they consumed beforehand. As well as annihilating two astartes chapters.  



Warlock in Training said:


> Who is the whole fleet part of Iyaden. Whats your point? One Eldar with a Fleet can beat half a Hive Fleet? Point Taken.


Actually, my point was that they were losing before a fully armed fleet attacked them from behind. I would add that they still came very close to defeat. Iyanden is as good as dead, a craftworld will not survive with wraith constucts alone.



Warlock in Training said:


> Im not Belittle anything, your blowing them up more than they are.


Trying to remind you that the nids are accepted and established as the dominant threat to the galaxy? Established by GW themselves actually. Yet you dismiss them as nothing almost constantly while you cite innacurate recounts of fluff.



Warlock in Training said:


> Again a SINGLE planet that halted the approach of the Largest Hive Fleet yet. Still not impressed.


Example of the above here. Octarius is not a single planet, it is an enormous ork empire that encompasses a significant portion of the galactic core near the edge of the Ultima segmentum. 



Warlock in Training said:


> Yeah and Rynns world suffer one of the Largest WAAAGHs ever and beat it back with less than 300 Marines. Big Whoop.icknose:


300 marines? So the planet`s worth of PDF had nothing to do with it then? And what`s the current status of that chapter by the way, are they doing fine and dandy? I sure didn`t get that impression. 



Warlock in Training said:


> My Ponit is Chaos, Necrons, Orks, and to a extant Eldar / Tau are all Major Players in the Galaxy which means even IF the Nids were to invade at full power the resistance from ALL the other superpowers along with the Imperium will beat them back. Then they can get rid of the sorry as Nids race like how the Nids got rid of the Squats! Seriously There is NO way for the Nids to EFFECTIVLY deal with All the Ork Empires, Eye of Terror/Maelstrom, and Tomb Worlds at all.:read: Yep They have no wins against the Warp, avoid Tomb Worlds, and fight eternal battles against the non extiguishable Orks.
> 
> Wait a sec, is the story about Maugan Ra taking out a Hive Ship worth of Nids praticly by himself? I cant remember. Maybe we just need more Phoenix Lords :laugh:.


You`re also missing an important point. Those factions are also fighting each other almost constantly. Tyranids can regenerate their losses win or lose, the Imperium and eldar cannot say the same. The tau do not have the galactic presence to dramatically affect things anyway and orks are as detrimental to themselves as any other. 

Maugan Ra held his ground, and is practically a demigod. So what, I won`t deny that he`s that awesome.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Granted, but that`s the way GW is. There is a lot of history to fill, and a lot we don`t know. My point is that Iyanded went from the strongest to almost dead because of a splinter fleet. A splinter fleet by definition is a _small_ part of a bigger fleet.


Iyaden is still one of the top 5 Craftworlds with Yriel back and the Wraiths filling in. They're not dead at all. Wounded in living numbers but yet maintain their power. And if it was a mere splinter of the overall fleet, then why was it one of 2 engagements that delivered the overall death blow and mometum of Kraken?



Serpion5 said:


> No, two _splinter fleets_ (out of many more I should add) were stopped. The bulk of the fleet was divided, and still cost those factions dearly. Not to mention the hundred or so worlds they consumed beforehand. As well as annihilating two astartes chapters.


Those 2 Splinter Fleets once stopped it was over for Hive Fleet Kraken and Leviathon begins? How can you make it sound those 2 defeats were insinificant? Thats when Kraken stopped being number 1 threat.

Also the Lamenators survived that ordeal... with 3 companies left... and they were underman after the Badab War before Kraken..... yeah...



Serpion5 said:


> Actually, my point was that they were losing before a fully armed fleet attacked them from behind. I would add that they still came very close to defeat. Iyanden is as good as dead, a craftworld will not survive with wraith constucts alone.


Its not all Wraith Constructs alone, theres alot of Spirit Seers too :laugh:. The 4th edition Dex actually hints between Yriel and Iyanna Arienal that Iyaden can and is rebuilding.



Serpion5 said:


> Trying to remind you that the nids are accepted and established as the dominant threat to the galaxy? Established by GW themselves actually. Yet you dismiss them as nothing almost constantly while you cite innacurate recounts of fluff.


..... What?! Nids are establish as the DOMINANT threat by GW!? Not all girlfriend. GW clearly, CLEARLY describes the biggest threat to Imperium is Chaos, the guys that werre responsible for the whole HH, the guys that have 2 out of the 3 Inquisitions protect against. The badboys that pushed the Eldar to near extinction, killed the Emperor, broke the Emperium strength, and the guys that CANT BE TOUCHED by Nids or Necs since no one can waltz into the EoT/Maelstrom/Emperors Wrath/ECT....

Nids have a small presence in most fluff, Chaos is Rampant. Also Necrons are very close to being number one threat as well. As you fully well know. Every Dex shows their race as the baddest. However Chaos plays the biggest roles in 40K. Not Nids.



Serpion5 said:


> Example of the above here. Octarius is not a single planet, it is an enormous ork empire that encompasses a significant portion of the galactic core near the edge of the Ultima segmentum.


And Leviathon is suppose to be ALOT larger than Behometh and here it is stuck in eternal conflict by a Ork Empire the size of Ultramar. So a Single Chapter of SMs and huge Fleet with PDF beats back Behometh. Then the By far LARGEST tendril is stuck against a Ork Empire of Equal Size. Actually thats not coreect cause alot of the Octarious planets fell already, so its not as big as Ultramar anymore. But the Nids are stuck there... forever.



Serpion5 said:


> 300 marines? So the planet`s worth of PDF had nothing to do with it then? And what`s the current status of that chapter by the way, are they doing fine and dandy? I sure didn`t get that impression.


If your not familiar with the Rynns world fiasco, it was basicaly a WHOLE huge WAAAGH vs 300 Spartans... I mean Marines . The Marines won and have rebuilt their chapter since then.



Serpion5 said:


> You`re also missing an important point. Those factions are also fighting each other almost constantly. Tyranids can regenerate their losses win or lose, the Imperium and eldar cannot say the same. The tau do not have the galactic presence to dramatically affect things anyway and orks are as detrimental to themselves as any other.


Yes they're fighting eachother, and they're fighting the nids. Its not like 5 guys beating eachother up and a six guy walks around unchallenge. The Nids are fighting Tau, Mankind, Necrons, Astartes, Chaos, Orks, and Eldar. While Everyone is fighting eachother as well. 

Also BAs and Necrons, Team up to beat these stupid bugs. Hell the Tau teamed up with Necs and DE to fight these Bugs. SMs team up with Eldar to fight these nids. Who does the Nids team up with? Nobody. If anything they get ganged up on alot. 

So the whole everyone fighting themselves while Nids waltz around pwning doesnt holed up well. 



Serpion5 said:


> Maugan Ra held his ground, and is practically a demigod. So what, I won`t deny that he`s that awesome.


He also single handed pulled his Craftworld Altansar out of the EoT. He is badass. Its a shame theres next to nothing of the other Phoenix Lords.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Yeah, okay Warlock. I can only play your games for so long.  

The people who matter know better than you though, of that I rest assured.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

My main point is this:

The Tyranids in the 30k universe is much like a large group if 6 year olds. Yeah, there's a ton of them, but you're big muthah like Kimbo Slice and you can tear them up like crazy. No matter how much "Ants vs. Grasshoppers" analogies you throw my direction, I'm going to wreck the living hell outta those 6 year olds. 

Now, let's fast forward 10,000 years. Those 6 year olds are now 16 year olds. They've beefed up via natural aging and grown about 2' more. Now those "Easy to Wreck" aren't so easy to wreck. In fact, via sheer numbers, I might get my ass whooped pretty hardcore. If I am able to take out that large group of (now) 16 year olds, I'm going to pay & pay dearly.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Diatribe1974 said:


> My main point is this:
> 
> The Tyranids in the 30k universe is much like a large group if 6 year olds. Yeah, there's a ton of them, but you're big muthah like Kimbo Slice a


lol KS is a joke, a brawler with no skill and Dana White said so himself.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> lol KS is a joke, a brawler with no skill and Dana White said so himself.



Yeah, I know he's gotten his butt knocked out more and more lately, but, as I said: Versus 6 year olds, he's going to tear them a part. Versus those same 6 year olds after they've matured and grown up, he'll get tore up faster than Brock Lesner did when he fought Cain Velasquez. The Tyranids were 10,000 years less matured back then. Since we honestly have NOTHING to judge them for their potential strength, we have to assume they were just as potentially lessened back then, versus how they are now. The Imperium back then, was at it's height: The Emperor & Primarchs were still around. The Legions were united. While the Eye of Terror was there (Yes, I read your post CoE), what it is today isn't what it was back then. The Tau were still probably fighting amongst themselves and the Orks were probably still wondering where all the smart ones of their kind went to.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

You assume that whatever galaxy the Tyranids came from, they hadn't conquered its indigenous inhabitants who probably are as tough or worse as the WH40k universe prior to entering it. 

Seeing as how a splinter fleet has owned so many worlds in the Imperium/craftworlds, I can easily see how it could be true.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Diatribe1974 said:


> My main point is this:
> 
> The Tyranids in the 30k universe is much like a large group if 6 year olds..


The OP wrote what if the 40k Tyranid fleets had arrived in 30k instead of 40k. So your argument that they've grown stronger over the last 10,000 years doesn't really apply.

Plus they've "traveled through the bleak intergalactic space between galaxies for countless millennia" (5th edition Tyranid Codex, 6). If we assume that "countless" is more than 10, then their 30k counterparts would be no different than their 40k counterparts.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

hailene said:


> The OP wrote what if the 40k Tyranid fleets had arrived in 30k instead of 40k. So your argument that they've grown stronger over the last 10,000 years doesn't really apply.
> 
> Plus they've "traveled through the bleak intergalactic space between galaxies for countless millennia" (5th edition Tyranid Codex, 6). If we assume that "countless" is more than 10, then their 30k counterparts would be no different than their 40k counterparts.



Okay, I did miss the part in which it was "40k Tyranids in the 30k Universe". Then it's a far harder fight. IMHO, still in the Imperium's favour, but a still harder fight to win (re: No longer a guaranteed victory).


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I'm still interested in hearing how the 40k Tyranids vary from their 30k kindred. According to the codex, they've been floating between galaxies for thousands and thousands of years (more than 10,000 if countless is more than 10).

How then would the 30k ones be different from the 40k in terms of evolution?

I'll check up in the morning as I'm going to bed now. I await your answer!


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

As has been said before I feel that the Nids would be successfully contained. For the following reasons:

1. Imperium is united
2. Legions are all loyal and contain their Primachs
3. The Emperor is alive and fighting.
4. They would still have to fight the Eldar and orks.

Doc


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

_"How do you feel the Imperium would have managed with comparable Tyranid invasions as seen in the (current) 40K timeline?"
_
From what I understood, the OP isn't indicating a difference between the 40k and 30k strains of Tyranid, rather how would the 30k Imperium cope with invasions similar to what we have seen in the 40k universe.

I don't think there is a fundamental difference between the 30k/40k versions of Tyranids, rather they set off from their galaxy during the 30k timeline and it took 10k years for them to arrive via hibernation-space travel, hence their presence in an Emperor/Primarch-less Imperium.




docgeo said:


> As has been said before I feel that the Nids would be successfully contained. For the following reasons:
> 
> 1. Imperium is united
> 2. Legions are all loyal and contain their Primachs
> ...



If anything I think the Imperium would have crumbled if the Tyranids arrived during that period.

The Imperium had to deal with 9 traitor Legions back then and their empire was not as massive nor did it undergo the necessary changes implemented by Guilliman that has allowed the Imperium of 40k to be able to deal with the many alien threats lingering within its borders.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Yeah, okay Warlock. I can only play your games for so long.


 I like this game.



Serpion5 said:


> The people who matter know better than you though, of that I rest assured.



hey! HEY! I resemble that remark!


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> If anything I think the Imperium would have crumbled if the Tyranids arrived during that period.
> 
> The Imperium had to deal with 9 traitor Legions back then and their empire was not as massive nor did it undergo the necessary changes implemented by Guilliman that has allowed the Imperium of 40k to be able to deal with the many alien threats lingering within its borders.


The OP said when the Imperium was at its prime. I'd assume when they had 9 traitor legions running around isn't its prime.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

hailene said:


> The OP said when the Imperium was at its prime. I'd assume when they had 9 traitor legions running around isn't its prime.


It's subjective. 

The Imperium with Guilliman's improvements I would argue was more able when it came to adapting to certain scenarios I would imagine.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Tell me when you felt the Imperium was at its best then.

And do keep in mind that you're weighing it against 18 loyal primarchs, at least twice as many Space Marines out in the galaxy than there is now, more Titans (as per Titanticus), and of course the Emperor at the head.

With Guilli still alive and kicking to add his mental prowess to any situation.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I think pre-HH, the Imperium was built to be on the offensive, to conquer not to defend which is the case with the Imperium post HH. 

They've become more reclusive in one sense, their drive to conquer diminished with the end of the Great Crusade.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I don't think the Imperial drive to conquer has diminished, merely the situation that allowed them to has disappeared. They don't have the men to both defend and attack. Look at the Zeist campaign. Imperial forces had routed Tau forces from the Zeist sector and was ready to take the party to the rest of the Tau empire when they were called back because they were needed elsewhere.

The Sabbat Crusade and Mach crusade shows that the Imperium is still willing to commit large scale forces to both counter offensive and offensive crusades.

The drive is still there, they just can't afford to do it too often anymore.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Badab War was pretty Offensive....

Anywho they had less enemies, more worlds, and no huge threats like Necs and Tau Adding to the fire. Big Plus is the Sqauts would still be around and kicking, this time with the Imperium behind them.


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## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

docgeo said:


> Hey!!! Why do my Ultramarines never get any love?


I think the Ultramarines are a bit... boring. Sorry. I read the first 3 ultramarines books and am now reading Fall of Damnos. Each legion or chapter has their own specialities, their own draw. I mean the Blood Angels are vicious and blood thirsty with their own gene flaws with the Black Rage and Red Thirst. The Space Wolves are Vikings that when they loose control of their temper they turn into werewolves. White Scars are basically Mongolians that specialise in blades and using motorcycles for fast attack. Ravenguard on using jump packs for hit and run tactics. Gray Knights having powerful phsykers wearing terminator armour and teleporting into the enemies directly then smashing them to bits. Black Templars are the most hardcore and they chain their weapons to their hands so can't even disarm them if they are dead. 

Every single legion and chapter is more interesting, especially the chaos legions which I haven't even mentioned yet. I mean night lords spreading fear and terror. Iron Warriors being siege specialists, word bearers use of deamons. World Eaters being crazed berserkers etc etc

Whats unique about Ultramarines? Their strict adherence to the rules. Wow. Exciting. While I did enjoy the Ultramarines omnibus... Fall of Damnos is testing me to try and not put it down, the ultramarines are just so generic they can be so boring.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

raider1987 said:


> Whats unique about Ultramarines? Their strict adherence to the rules. Wow. Exciting. While I did enjoy the Ultramarines omnibus... Fall of Damnos is testing me to try and not put it down, the ultramarines are just so generic they can be so boring.


A lot of people misunderstand what the Codex Astartes is. They think it's a strict guidebook that has all the marines acting like toy soldiers, rather than the written legacy of the finest tactician to live. It's flexible and encompasses nearly every possible situation.

And while the "Fall of Damnos" was one boring hunk of paper, it shed a little bit more light on the Codex Astartes. The first and second captains, both adamant followers of the Codex, apply wildly different applications of the Codex to the same situations. The Codex isn't merely "If the enemy does A, do B", but rather offers multiple solutions to a problem while keeping in mind the likely reactions of the enemy (as per "Age of Darkness").

People don't give the Codex enough credit.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

SW seem to be doing fine without the Codex. In both Fluff and Game :wink:


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> SW seem to be doing fine without the Codex. In both Fluff and Game :wink:


There's more than one way to skin a cat.

It's good that the SW have figured out an effective way to fight. I'd imagine that they'd have problem when odd balls get thrown their way (civilians in the way, combining arms with regular humans, ect). Their tactics are brutally effective, but sometimes lacks a more comprehensive plan. 

In the all, I think one of their greater weaknesses would probably fighting with (as opposed to simply next to) other arms of the Imperium, even to other Space Marines to some extent. At least on their own. I think with guidance from a more even keeled mind they could.

This is all in my opinion, of course.

Ironically, I think it's the Ultramarines, and not one of the niche-ier chapters that are probably the most flexible of all Chapters. Wouldn't that sorta make them the, ya know, least bland?


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