# Word Bearers, Black Templars and Grey Knights



## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

Note: This thread is related to the Religion in the Imperium thread.

So recently I read the books The First Heretic and Helsreach back to back, and am currently reading the Grey Knights Omnibus and a thought occurred to me:

What's the difference between the Black Templars or Grey Knights, and the pre-Heresy Word Bearers?

Think about it a moment.

In some places the words, prayers and phrases they use could almost be swapped and none would be the wiser. The devotion and relgious fervor of the Black Templars and Grey Knights for the Emperor is maybe a bit more intense, but nevertheless in better circumstances the Word Bearers of old would probably get along with the Black Templars and Grey Knights just fine.

This leads me to wonder about a couple of things. Suppose the Emperor were to awaken from his torpor and become aware of what had happened around him? Suppose he were to recover and once again walk among the stars?

Would he censure the Templars and Knights for their devotion as he did the Word Bearers? Indeed, he'd have to censure the entire Imperium but no doubt the Black Templars and the Grey Knights would take it the hardest.

...See where I'm going with this? Would those chapters, utterly loyal and fanatical to the Emperor, be at risk of the same sort of fall as the Word Bearers? Certainly any Space Marine chapter would be devastated and the Imperium would be in a massive state of upheval, but the Astartes of the Grey Knights and Black Templars are defined by their fanatical devotion to the Emperor more than the others. It's an inherent part of who they are. An Ultramarine who believes in the godhood of the Emperor and an Ultramarine who didn't would be prettymuch the same. The Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood angels, etc. would also retain their identity should the Emperor's nature as a deity be undone. Take the faith away from a Black Templar or a Grey Knight however... What's left? 

Might they fall to Chaos to fill the void, or would they find a way to hang on, lacking the corrupting influence of the likes of Kor Phaeron to turn them to ruin?


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

The actual space marine chapters don't revere the Emperor as a God though do they? They see him more as a father figure, but interestingly enough most of their mantras will ask him for protection or some such boon. How could he do this if he were not a God.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=80211 - Similar things were discussed in that thread if you wanna have a flick through.


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## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=80211 - Similar things were discussed in that thread if you wanna have a flick through.


Thankya. Good discussion.

In this case though I was focusing more on those specific chapters in terms of wondering what, if anything, really separates the Bts/GKs from the WBs.

Are they fundamentally the same, just the product of the times being different, or are they fundamentally different somehow such that the Word Bearers inevitably would have failed and the Black Templars/Grey Knights would inevitably be successful and remain loyal?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I would say the Grey Knights faith in the Emperor seperates them from the Word Bearers and Templars. Both the Word Bearers and Templars have/had and enormous amount of faith in him. But in less than 150 years the entire Word Bearers legion fell to chaos, since their inception some Black Templars will have fallen to chaos. But in 10,000 years, not a single Grey Knight has ever fallen. That speaks volumes to me


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> I would say the Grey Knights faith in the Emperor seperates them from the Word Bearers and Templars. Both the Word Bearers and Templars have/had and enormous amount of faith in him. But in less than 150 years the entire Word Bearers legion fell to chaos, since their inception some Black Templars will have fallen to chaos. But in 10,000 years, not a single Grey Knight has ever fallen. That speaks volumes to me


I would say that's more to do with circumstance to be honest.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Idolism was the Word Bearer's pitfall. The Golden Cow religious reference and all that jazz.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I would say that's more to do with circumstance to be honest.


Perhaps, i still believe if they had stayed loyal at least one Word Bearer would have fallen in 10,000 years. Definetly a difference between the Templars and Knights though, aside from the superior training, equipment and all the other goodies the Knights have


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

The WBs saw worship sort of as an end in itself. For the GKs, their faith as one of their weapons in the fight against Chaos/the Daemonic. The BTs, it could be said, also use their faith as a tool to cover for their lack of psykers. Whilst there are real similarities, the reasons for that faith might spring from different motivations; if faith was of no help to the GK, then I would imagine they would have the same view of the Emperor as many normal Chapters.
In the current timeline, the Emperor couldn't help but know of the predations of Chaos, something that wasn't happening during his Great Crusade. So whilst I think he would despise being called a god, it's a bit late for that to make any difference. He can't fight Chaos by keeping it secret anymore, now, he needs whatwever weapons will work; if invoking his name, and casting him as divine is what defeats Chaos then so be it.
He is the ultimate pragmatist, after all.

GFP


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Perhaps, i still believe if they had stayed loyal at least one Word Bearer would have fallen in 10,000 years. Definetly a difference between the Templars and Knights though, aside from the superior training, equipment and all the other goodies the Knights have


The Word Bearers and Lorgar as a whole were generally more philosophical than religious I would argue. They sought the answers to the difficult questions, and above all the truth. And they did so in a time when the Emperor walked among mortals and generally wasn't considered a god by the wider Imperium.

The Grey Knights and Black Templars however were born into a wider Imperium which did venerate the *God-*Emperor as the saviour of Mankind (and indeed one reason why Grey Knights are recruited is because of their unshakable faith in Him on Earth). They have no reason to doubt their faith in the Emperor, they blindly follow the tenants of the Imperial Cult, they don't philosophically seek any higher truth to the universe as the Word Bearers did. The Word Bearers on the other hand were chastised for such worship, they also discovered the Emperor had lied to Mankind and hid the truth from them all.

Although all three parties at some point worshipped the Emperor as a god, the circumstances involved were very different. We cannot without doubt vouch for the choices of the Black Templars and Grey Knights if the circumstances were reversed.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

not that i am an expert or owt but it seems to me that there is truth in all that you are all saying. The Black Templars do seem (to me at any rate) to be more religiously geared to the cult and this would put them on a par at least in the idiology stakes as the Word Bearers. so it leads to one question., did Sigusand embrace the emerging imperial cult as part of a tennant for the templars amongst thier Imperial Fits tennants? and the grey knights certainly seem to be the most loyal as it is reputed that not one has fallen to chaos in 10,000 years. 
I always likened the BT to the knights templars of old anyway dunno if anyone thinks the same.


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## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

I think maybe there is one big difference, and that is that while the Word Bearers' devotion was one of simple faith, the Grey Knights, Black Templars and the Sisters of Battle seem to reap actual, tangible benefits from their faith in a measurable, outward way. The Grey Knights' faith actually DOES seem to shield them from the warp. The Sisters' faith actually DOES seem to protect them on the battlefield. The Black Templars' devotion actually DOES seem to make them more effective in battle.

Is this due to actual activity by the Emperor, or is it an example of faith, so well focused that the person rises above themselves? Does the Emperor protect, or is the faith that he will its own reward?


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

This is a point I've chewed over during my time with the hobby - I just view it as part of what makes 40K's cannon wonderfully grim-dark. The fact is that in 10,000 years without the emperor the society he championed has been corrupted to represent that which he abhored.

The delicious irony is part of what makes 40K an amazing work of fiction (miles above the fantasy realm where these guys are good & those guys are evil). Throughout the first couple of HH books you see the growth (in secret) of the imperial cult. It spreads to the masses in the form of pamphlets & leaflets which were originally Lorgar's works.

One of the unanswered questions of 40K is what exactly defines one as a god? The emperor proclaimed that there were no gods & maybe he was correct. He did not see himself as a god & since the chaos gods are really just the combined "realization" of the thoughts, desires & emotions of all sentient beings they aren't "true gods" either - in the sense that they can't exist independant of the "worship" of their subjects... On the otherhand these are all imortal beings of uncalculable power, capable of shaping reality to their whims. What defines divinity? (scary thought, deep philosophy buried under a tonne of *mostly* aweful war-porn...)

I don't know enough about the specifics of the GK or BT to say whether they *worship* the emperor in the same way the WB did - do they actually worship, or do they just do their damnedest to follow his will & do right by humanity?

To me the greatest part is that of all the legions it is the WB, who are almost always maligned, almost always show up & get horribly dick-punched back into the warp, who were most successful. Their belief system took off, originally they meant it honestly & fervourently. After their fall, the imperial cult really took off & managed to pervert the entire imperium...


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## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

I guess that depends largely on what constitutes worship. They pray to the Emperor, they have altars built in his honor, and have chaplains that preach the divinity of the Emperor. I guess that qualifies, at least for the purpose of this discussion.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

unixknight said:


> I think maybe there is one big difference, and that is that while the Word Bearers' devotion was one of simple faith, the Grey Knights, Black Templars and the Sisters of Battle seem to reap actual, tangible benefits from their faith in a measurable, outward way. The Grey Knights' faith actually DOES seem to shield them from the warp. The Sisters' faith actually DOES seem to protect them on the battlefield. The Black Templars' devotion actually DOES seem to make them more effective in battle.
> 
> Is this due to actual activity by the Emperor, or is it an example of faith, so well focused that the person rises above themselves? Does the Emperor protect, or is the faith that he will its own reward?


or could it be that in the 40K miracles aren't just left to the saints or those that experiance them then get carted off on the black ships?
the best thing about 40K to go back to my last post is this (IMHO) the parales between the real world and fiction world is not that blurred. You have a imperium that once thrived on technology and now lost it due to the heresy and other factions later on. Superstition and persecution are rife and if anyone shows any gifts that they in thier hearts believe come from the emp then they are hunted or hounded and captured by the inquistion....sounds a bit like medievil europe to me.
take Joan of arc for example, her victories came from she claims to be the voice of god, cause she won her enemies said she was possessed and she was tried as a witch. 
The knights templar were devout and faitful followers of thier faith and ammased a fortune which gave them enemies. and although there is no fortune per sai in the Black Templars, thier secrets are just as valuable and thier rituals. 
maybe i should read more on them cause they do sound like an interesting if a little extreme bunch. 
anyway with the word bearers laying the foundation for the Imperial creed (and we all know what happened after that) the Black Templars seem to enforce it on their never ending crusade and the Grey knights could be likened to the Knights of the round table, the most purest in the imperium but therein lies a warning. Lancelot was the purest knight until he fell from grace and eventually, the big four will find a way to crack that nut, might take a few millenia more but eventually even the pure fall.
however, as long as they believe that the power of the emperor is flowing through them then they can do anything and to mere mortals thier abilites are nothing short of miracles.


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## T3h Emprah (Jan 26, 2011)

Vaz said:


> Idolism was the Word Bearer's pitfall. The Golden Cow religious reference and all that jazz.


FUCK YEAH.


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## Emporers Champion (Mar 19, 2009)

unixknight said:


> So recently I read the books The First Heretic and Helsreach back to back, and am currently reading the Grey Knights Omnibus


I read the Grey Knights Omnibus, then Helsreach and im half way through the First Heretic.

Funny that! We must have the sane taste in space marines :grin:


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## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

gothik said:


> or could it be that in the 40K miracles aren't just left to the saints or those that experiance them then get carted off on the black ships?


Could be, but take the Sisters of Battle. They have the Faith Point system that has nothing to do with psykers and yet they're tangible benefits that must come from _somewhere_.

As you say, there have been times in history when exceptional individuals were accused of heresy and slain for it and I agree. But in the case of the Grey Knights, we can presume their abilities have to do with their psyker nature, and the Black Templars are fanatical but there really isn't anything supernatural about them. 

Does this mean the BTs or GKs could turn against the Emperor and still retain their abilities? If indeed the Sisters of Battle get theirs from the Emperor, would they lose them in the event that they turn away?

Hmmmmm....



gothik said:


> The knights templar were devout and faitful followers of thier faith and ammased a fortune which gave them enemies. and although there is no fortune per sai in the Black Templars, thier secrets are just as valuable and thier rituals.
> maybe i should read more on them cause they do sound like an interesting if a little extreme bunch.


I recommend The Templars by Piers Paul Read.



gothik said:


> anyway with the word bearers laying the foundation for the Imperial creed (and we all know what happened after that) the Black Templars seem to enforce it on their never ending crusade


Excactly. Would they be in danger of following the same path as the WBs? I think... they may very well be.



gothik said:


> and the Grey knights could be likened to the Knights of the round table, the most purest in the imperium but therein lies a warning. Lancelot was the purest knight until he fell from grace and eventually, the big four will find a way to crack that nut, might take a few millenia more but eventually even the pure fall.


Agreed. I hope it doesn't happen in fluff though, since the image of the Grey Knights' purity would be forever tarnished, even if just one individual fell.

(Side note: Would the Black Templars then stop being willing to fight alongside them? Hmmmmm)



gothik said:


> however, as long as they believe that the power of the emperor is flowing through them then they can do anything and to mere mortals thier abilites are nothing short of miracles.


Ah, but is the power of the Grey Knights from the Emperor? Hmmmm



Emporers Champion said:


> I read the Grey Knights Omnibus, then Helsreach and im half way through the First Heretic.
> 
> Funny that! We must have the sane taste in space marines :grin:


LOL so it would seem! Which do you like best?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

As for how the Emperor would react should he somehow return? I don't think he would rebuke the various Chapters.

Remember, his actions in the pre-Heresy years were _preventative_ in nature. He was trying to avoid the whole paradigm of religious worship and the cause/effect relationship it had between the Materium and the Immaterium. Now, the cat's out of the bag. There's no going back, and hence there's no point in reprimanding Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, etc.

As for the faith issue between the three forces cited (Word Bearers, etc.)? That's just part of the irony inherent in the 40k universe.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

unixknight said:


> Could be, but take the Sisters of Battle. They have the Faith Point system that has nothing to do with psykers and yet they're tangible benefits that must come from _somewhere_.
> 
> 
> unixknight said:
> ...


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Dont also the White Consuls, Soul Drinkers, and Red Hunters openly worship the Emp as a God. The Soul Drinkers were duped into and were in the end worshipping a DP. The Red Hunters are Inquisition specific SMs so I see were they fall into the cult. White Consules if remember right worship the Emp as a god.... They also have 2 Chapter Masters.... for a UM second founding they're not very Codexy.

So Black Templars and GKs are not alone.


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## Battleshield (Dec 20, 2012)

The Emperor knew of the Powers of the Warp millenia before the rest of Humanity and his efforts to eradicate Human faith were intended to shield us from the predations of those Dark Gods.

Supplementing that defensive approach, the edicts of Nikea were intended to remove another known weak point that could be exploited by Chaos to impact Humanity.

The Emperors directive to Malcador to form the Inquisition in general and the Grey Knights in specific were his admission that the Emperor himself represented the Power of Order to combat Chaos and only through utterly devout and unswerving faith in the Emperor could those powers be used without risk of corruption.

The Word Bearers sought Truth wherever it could be found and with eyes wide open. It was this openness that let them become the pawns of Chaos and represents the single biggest difference between the WBs and those Groups still loyal. 

~B


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Word Bearers and Lorgar as a whole were generally more philosophical than religious I would argue. They sought the answers to the difficult questions, and above all the truth.


I'm not so sure about that.

I think it would be more fair to say that they turned to philosophical discourse to justify their religious bent at a time when the Imperium was against all things religious. When the Emperor was denied to them, they then turned to philosophy and philosophical ideals (truth as the chief good can easily be dated back to pre-Peloponnesian War Athens) to justify their allegiance to the Ruinous Powers. Once that leap was taken, though, they were full of religious fervor. In that sense, I don't think you can compare the Black Templars to the Word Bearers pre-Monarchia and post-"Aurelian".

Ultimately, religion, religious fervor, and the quest to earn the favor of the Ruinous Powers (and through them, gain power) defines the Word Bearers. Duty (that is, the war against Chaos) defines the Grey Knights and the Black Templars - worship of the Emperor is a byproduct of that existence. There's a marked difference between those two concepts...

... in my humble opinion. 

EDIT: I didn't realize I was replying to such a resurrected thread! :biggrin:


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

An interesting point to bear in mind, is that the first saint Euphrati Keeler was around at the Horus Heresy, espousing her faith in the god-emperor of mankind and recieving visions and the ability to manifest miracles of faith. It stemming from Lorgar's tome of faith - the Lectio Divinatus. Which would go around to form the core of fath in the nascent imperium.

I stipulate that Lorgar wanted so much to worship his father and spreading out his vision of his belief to the Imperium, a belief that grew like wildfire and taking a life of its own in the warp. Centered upon Imperial Terra itself and finding its first outlet in Euphrati Keeler.

But the Emperor and the nascent God-Emperor entity in the warp are not the same being. The later being the nascent warp entity formed from Lorgar's idealized and idolized version of his father, empowered by the fervent need of a galactic empire needing a saviour figure to pray to in the Age of Darkness and post Horus Heresy. And with its 'mortal' anchor going silent, it would coniviently no longer sprout ateism propanganda, while the god emperor entity in the warp would mature and grow over the following 10.000 years, manifesting boons and miracles for those of most intense belief and empowering a select few to act as its chosen. 

And the ironic thing, the tortured Emperor may not even be aware of this monstrous warp echo of himself that is growing in the warp over Terra, incubating and waiting for the critical mass of belief intake to be born. A star-child.


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## redmapa (Nov 9, 2011)

Im not sure if this has been recitified in this thread but of all the space marine chapters (except maybe the SW) the Black Templars are the only chapter that still abides to the Emperor's word during the Great Crusade/Heresy era, we have no psykers for they were banned in the Edict of Nikea and the Codex Astartes has no bearing on the Black Templar doctrine for it wasn't written by the Emperor but Gulliman who has no saying amongst Sigismund's Templars..As such the Black Templar still wage the Great Crusade, spreading the Imperial Truth above all else and bashing the skulls of the filth that dare contest the galaxy from the Emperor's hands..

The word bearers believe in Gods, the Grey Knights use the power of the warp which needs faith and will power to harness it and bend it to one's will, the Black Templars are a heavily ritualized chapter that places its faith not in gods for they are not worth putting one's faith in but in the Emperor's will for His dreamed utopia is worth fighting for, even gods who claim the universe as their own must be purged from mankind's rightful galaxy, like it says on the Emperor's Champion sword 'Dei Castigator' Punish the gods that defy us!


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

The Black templars is not waging the great crusade. Sigismund declared an eternal crusade for the Black Templars to prove their devotion, something they have kept for 10.000 years.

The Black Templars abhors psykers and does not allow them in their ranks, they still make use of astropaths and navigators. And I know the Grey Knights is the only battle psykers they will fight alongside, considering them to be pure.

And they are not spreading the Imperial Truth, which is something which is long dead, they revere the Emperor as a god.


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