# Horus Heresy, Who's to blame?



## Initiate (Mar 25, 2007)

Who do you think is to blame for the HH? It may be blasphemy, but I say the Emperor for giving Horus that much power so that the son of a bitch Erebus could turn him. Sanguinuis is the obvious choice for Warmaster. Even Horus said that Sanguinuis had the most of the Emperor in him. He was charismatic, strong, ambitious, powerful, smart, a tactical genius and beloved of the Imperium and the Emperor. 

What'd you think?


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## Caledor (Jan 15, 2008)

Hate to say it, but I've gotta say the Emperor as well. It doesn't really matter who else influences the Heresy, it'll all come back to Him in the end. I'd still fight in His name, however.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

3 groups are to blame

logar + his subordinates

they were the first to fall...ordered to bring horus into the fold, because he was the best primarch not, in my mind, because he was warmaster

the emperor

reason - not informing his children of what he was doing / not allowing Logar to use his preachy ideology. 

Horus

for being the BAMF of all primarchs; therefore the only 1 able to beat the emperor.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Logar for holding a grudge, Horus for being a weak minded twit and the emp for being blind.


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## shadowscout13 (Oct 8, 2008)

I'd say horus is to blame mostly. If he couldn't tell that they were influencing him to turn then he's an idiot. Then the emperor who was supposed to be this all powerful psyker and he could even tell that there was a possible fault in horus.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

i would say the chaos gods for planning the whole treachery *shakes fist and the chaos god and murmurs*...
also the emperor because he was the only one who knew about chaos and didnt think that they might mess up his plan!


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Eldraaaaaaad


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## Lord of Rebirth (Jun 7, 2008)

The ephermentality of Chaos since it is the driving force behind dissension and war.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

kor phaeron is first because as far as we know HE was the first to turn and then turned lorgar

then comes lorgar for turning his legion

then erebus for carrying out the plan to almost kill the warmaster

Fulgrim is next, IMO, for having the perfect chance to nip the problem in the bud when he had gone to confront horus and did not do anything about it even though he knew it was wrong

then of course horus for obvious reasons

and lastly the emperor for being the blind fuck that he is.


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## Epic Fail (Jun 23, 2008)

It's the American central bank, and the powerful individuals behind it. By 40k they might have even become the chaos gods?


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

Not Chaos?


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## HorusReborn (Nov 19, 2008)

The Emperor, plain and simple.. He was a dick for doing whatever it was at Terra, and just leaving.. got too cocky and Horus put him to task for it, and nocked him down a few notches! Go Word Bearers for being the perpetrators!!!!!!!


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## odinsgrudge (Apr 11, 2008)

This may sound like a copout...but could it be possible for the Emperor to have foreseen the events of the Heresy, and it somehow fits into his plans for humanity? It seems that a psyker of such immense power should have been able to foresee such things...


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

the chaos gods for wanting to subvert humans


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

...Siiindriiiiiiiii


Metal Boxes


Actually I'd like to blame Robert "jerkasaurus" Guilliman.


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## Trevor Drake (Oct 25, 2008)

odinsgrudge said:


> This may sound like a copout...but could it be possible for the Emperor to have foreseen the events of the Heresy, and it somehow fits into his plans for humanity? It seems that a psyker of such immense power should have been able to foresee such things...


My belief is that the fault lies in the emperor. Yes he is supposedly the greatest psyker, but it is my belief that he allowed his parental feelings for his sons get in the way. We all know how parents find it hard to believe when their children have fallen from grace and refuse to believe it until it is too late. I believe it was his love for Horus and the rest of his sons that allowed the heresy to fester. Had it been just a subordinate he surely would have taken them out no questions asked.

Also, had he been there for his son in his time of need, perhaps he could have helped Horus and kept him from turning.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

i agree. the emperor in his all knowing state failed to see that his son's ambition would be his undoing. he set his sons up to fail and the best example is magnus. this guy was nothing but loyal to the emperor and was allowed to continue sorcery for a long time, and he was good at it and could control it as could his legion. but after the council at nikea because some of his brothers didnt like how he fought he had to change? bullshit if you ask me. russ wasnt liked by all of his brothers and some saw him as an outright brute but his legion wasnt punished, neither was Angron's no matter how much people say he was told to stop. then he trys to help horus and is pushed away and then the emperor accuses HIM of being a traitor and not Horus when he tries to warn him. 

The emperor made many mistakes with his sons and failed to recognize them until he had the pissed off ones standing on his front doorstep with chainaxe in hand wanting to come in and hack his head off.


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## captain Veros (Oct 25, 2008)

LORGARS!!!:good::good:


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## revenant13 (Feb 15, 2008)

inspite of being an SM player, id have to say it was just 90% of it the emperor's fault. i mean he gave too much power to each primarch for one. i mean having at minimum 10k marines is already powerful enough, but giving them guardsmen, entire fleets, titan legions, and anything else to raze a system in one go was just excessive power for one individual let alone 18 of them. several of the traitors he pissed off at some point really badly and probably why they turned (getting uberly pissed at magnus for doing what hes best at, getting mad at lorgar and his peaching stuff, taking angron and letting his fellow warriors die on his home planet, etc). also for not letting his sons know whats up when he went back to terra, which was the cause of just about all of horus' internal conflict and eventual turning.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

What really grinds my gears about the emp. is that moronic Custode at the end of Eisenstien that did not want to "bother" the emp. to tell him that 1/2 of his sons had turned traitor and wanted to kill him. I think the official excuse was something like "he is too busy". Reminds me of Hitler on D-day. We landed as the sun was coming up and no one wanted the wake the fuhrer up early, so they sent reinforcements to the beaches too late to be able to stop it.

Idiots.

That act of stupidity gives Horus some cred. when he says "the emp turned his back on us". 1000s of his Astrates are dying and he can't be bothered - 10k years as a corpse king is fitting punishment IMHO.


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

Lion El'Jonson for not kicking everyones ass. Srs bsns (-_-)


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## Lupercal's Chosen (May 8, 2008)

Fulgrim!!!


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## Lupercal's Chosen (May 8, 2008)

Or lorgar!!!


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

i c ur responses and i raise you argel tal of the serrated sun chapter, word bearer legion!

if only he'd left well enough alone.....

then the emp for not tellin lorgar he was a religious gimp straight away instead of 100 yrs into his zealous galactic romp

then of course lorgar for being so desperate to believe in something he happily jumped into bed with the chaos gods


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

oh bloody hell i totally didnt check the last post date


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

demonictalkin56 said:


> oh bloody hell i totally didnt check the last post date


Meeh, that happens nowahdays.


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

> oh bloody hell i totally didnt check the last post date
> Reply With Quote


The word "Fail" comes to mind...no offense.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Lack of the Imperial Ideal in the minds of the Primarchs.

Its funny how the heresy was seeded by smaller individuals who got their Primarchs involved. Kor Phaeron for example was a scheming bastard the whole time. And Logar was about to kill him when he confessed his trechery. Instead he chose to explore the unexplorable abyss of chaos. 

If these Primarchs had been stronger in mind and heart I think they would have avoided the Heresy.

Horus for example in the first book. Showed his lack of Imperial Faith when finding that lost civilization of the Interex living so peacefully. Its almost as though he thought he had a revilation of some sort.

In truth, even though they said they were against chaos, they should have been destroyed. The alien races were responsible for a lot of the Primarchs falling. Why did they just keep a Daemon Weapon like that in display? I do not know. But I truly think the Alien races had been planning this. 

Goes without saying, look what they convinced the Alpha Legion to do. Look what Fulgrim did when he started to admire the perfection of the Laer.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Is that just human imperfection?

Hank Scorpio in the simpsons said "you can't argue against the little things, its the little things that make up life"

The heresy wasn't caused by 1 indidual, but simply was the result a a myriad of factors, gullimans pride, Horus's ambition, lorgars faith, the emperors ignorance, magnus's arrogance, fulgrims desires, malcadors secrecy, petite rivalrys, the imperium as an institution etc etc etc.

lorgar simply acted as a cataylst, and i actually think they were amoung the traitor legions who were betrayed by the imperium, Horus had power and was scared to lose it. And the emperor just wasn't a great communicator


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

Tzeentch.
He's the geez with all the planning, so its his fault, the dick


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Guillimans pride? He simply did what some other legions did not. He obeyed.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Chaos. 

Chaos is the root cause of all of it. Why? Chaos is the warp, the warp was becoming increasingly turbulent and no longer allowed for the the shamans(ya, I know) to resurect themselves. So in a last ditch attempt to preserve humanity, they created the emperor, a super human douche with the power to jump whole buildings in a single bound and fuck entire galaxies up with a single plan. 

To continue our little tale, the Emperor, fearing chaos's power, created the primarchs as supreme general that would help him on his quest to conquer the galaxy and free humanity from the grips of chaos. Fearing this, the chaos gods babynaped the emperors little darlings and sent them to a wide variety of shitholes. Discovering this, the Emperor was like "WTF mate?" and so he went on his merry way, fucking up innumerable peoples days in attempt to both conquer the galaxy and find his little kiddies. 

One by one he found his little creations, but, much to his chagrin, they had grown up as REAL FUCKING PEOPLE, so naturally they were all a bit fucked up in the head with that free will bullshit their parental figures tied to teach them, those fucking twats. Anywho, some were more fucked up than others and had serious daddy issues and needed a bit of coddling, but, since the big E had been infused with the powers of fucking kung fu jesus since birth, he had grown up as a narcissistic fuck head and was incapable of fucking understanding that *other people should probably have feelings* and he might want to watch out for that.

To sum things up from there, bad guys where like "boohoo, daddy didn't love me", in varying degrees of bitchy and decided it would be a good idea to fuck up the days of all the nice little peoples who's days the emperor had already fucked up.... *again*. 

So, a couple "daddy never loved me"'s, and some "you cunt, they're the bad guys" later, the galaxy is completely fucked up and it is all chao's fucking fault. Savvy?


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

The Emperor. He is a tit. A major tit. We're talking j-cup here folks. He would make your modern day pornstar blush, that's how big of a tit he is.

Every pivotal moment which lead up to and caused the heresy could have gone differently had the Emperor not had his head up his ass. Sure, you can say chaos is to blame. But the fact is that the Emperor played right into their hands. For someone who's life's goal it is to protect humanity from chaos, that's a failure of epic proportions.

An example of Emperor idiocy that has always bothered me: Why was some random schmuck's death at the hands of Horus needed to convince the Emperor of his corruption, when it was already known that Horus had killed Sanguinius, his closest and most beloved brother, without any hesitance when he wouldn't join his side? Shouldn't that have been enough of an indication that Horus ain't coming back to the light side? If the Emperor had just owned Horus right after discovering Sang's corpse, he'd probably still be fully healthy and actively ruling the Imperium at the moment.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Chaos.
> 
> Chaos is the root cause of all of it. Why? Chaos is the warp, the warp was becoming increasingly turbulent and no longer allowed for the the shamans(ya, I know) to resurect themselves. So in a last ditch attempt to preserve humanity, they created the emperor, a super human douche with the power to jump whole buildings in a single bound and fuck entire galaxies up with a single plan.
> 
> ...


This is exactly it. Well said!


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Its YOU!! Don't even try to blame others for your stupidity.


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Chaos.
> 
> Chaos is the root cause of all of it. Why? Chaos is the warp, the warp was becoming increasingly turbulent and no longer allowed for the the shamans(ya, I know) to resurect themselves. So in a last ditch attempt to preserve humanity, they created the emperor, a super human douche with the power to jump whole buildings in a single bound and fuck entire galaxies up with a single plan.
> 
> ...


I have to agree there 100%. Chaos is THE driving factor of the heresy.

Prospero Burns demonstrates that this is the case more completely and directly than ever before.


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## Commissar Schultz (Feb 18, 2011)

Justin Bieber..the first agent of chaos to sow the seeds of dissent, that take 30K years to bloom into the heresy!!


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

Wasn't Chaos brought into the galaxy because the Old Ones tore s gap in reality? Those old mother fuckers!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

TRU3 CHAOS said:


> Wasn't Chaos brought into the galaxy because the Old Ones tore s gap in reality? Those old mother fuckers!


Ah, yes, but the only reason the warp became populated with the vicious creatures it is now filled with is because the old ones were being wiped out by the Necrons. It is the necrons fault!


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

Fucken Necrons. I never liked those guys. Always gotta be haten and ruining everything.


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

In order of Importance
Chaos - for just being there as the undiscovered force behind the galaxy.
The Emperor - for rightly wanting to defeat chaos. Making a pact with chaos to make the Primarchs and then they were spirited away, giving chaos a chance to corrupt them.
The Primarchs - for (as noticed by Argen Tal of the WB's) being programmed to need a father figure.

All that you could put up with, and possibley salvage something.

I see the main instigator of the rift being caused by Malcador.

Apart from the missing Primarchs - the first and in deed every instance of fracture Malcador is behind it.

Everyone seem to believe the Emperor is a all knowing god, yet all knowledge of these events are seemingly unknown to him.

Malcador runs the Intelligence community and the Imperium seems to rely on him and their mundane information gathering.

So all the events are collated and acted upon by Malcador.

The first catastrpophy is an attack on Dorn by Curze, Malcador sends an assasin, with Lorgar, Malcador gets the Guiliman to blow up his favourite planet, with Magnus, Malcador organises the Trial of Nikea. Eventually and all too late Dorn him self confronts Malcador and the Emperor has to intervene to get him to Back Off. (in nemesis)
All the issues between the Imperium and the Primarchs are dealt with by Malcador - badly.
Everyone believes the Imperium is run by an all knowing God, its not, its run by an idiot using dodgy assasins and gadgets.

The whole HH is about chaos claiming and taking over of half of the Primarchs and their Legions and armies and knowing the despair of humanity as its best are turned against them, and the side issue of wondering where it all went wrong and how it could have been prevented.


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

The Emperor himself.

His own blindness to any potential failings in his 'children' (Hubris).
He saw them as perfect creations, built from his own genetic legacy, but he himself was not perfect. Imperfection cannot beget aught but imperfection.

They say that pride comes before a fall - Hubris definitely came before the heresy.


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## Cowlicker16 (Dec 7, 2010)

Alpharius, in his plot to join to Horus to get close enough for the kill he failed to get close enough for the kill and had to follow along with the plans set by Horus. Curse you Alpharius for your overly-obvious plan of assasination going wrong


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

chromedog said:


> The Emperor himself.
> 
> His own blindness to any potential failings in his 'children' (Hubris).
> He saw them as perfect creations, built from his own genetic legacy, but he himself was not perfect. Imperfection cannot beget aught but imperfection.
> ...


This mind set is part of the problem the Emperor himself tried to cure people of, "the Emperor should have known, the Emperor is all seeing, all knowing, the Emperor is god like," what if he isn't - what if he had no idea what was going on. What if he is - as you say - imperfect and fallible.

What seems to be part of the problem as shown in the first books of the HH, none of the Primarchs even knew that chaos even existed. The Emperor should have told them and helped them defend them selves against chaos as the Grey Knights do"


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

MuSigma said:


> .
> 
> The first catastrpophy is an attack on Dorn by Curze, Malcador sends an assasin, with Lorgar, Malcador gets the Guiliman to blow up his favourite planet, with Magnus, Malcador organises the Trial of Nikea. Eventually and all too late Dorn him self confronts Malcador and the Emperor has to intervene to get him to Back Off. (in nemesis)
> All the issues between the Imperium and the Primarchs are dealt with by Malcador - badly.
> ...


sorry to disagree but the above misses out some important points

m'shen was not sent after curze due to him attacking dorn; it was more the methods of his legion plus the fact he blew up his own planet! not to mention taking part in the heresy

guilliman only blew up monarchia due to the emperor telling him to; it was he who sanctioned it not malc.

again it was pressure from some of the primarchs that caused the council of nikea (namely mortarion amongst others)

granted re nemesis events he had a major hand but i belive the idea was about killing the head of the snake before it could poison the imperium anymore

also it was malcador that helped to set up the inquisition which was a decision by the emperor; pretty sure he also had a hand in the grey knights

plus he gave his life sitting on the golden throne while the emp fought horus

all in all i don't think he's as much to blame as u think; but thats the wonder of debate lol


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Horus had a lot of the blame obviously but also Lorgar, Kor, and Erebus were the ones who first started it. And of course the Chaos Gods 

But I think that the Emperor should have been like this,

"I promote Horus to Warmaster. Fight well my son for I have to work on the Golden Throne which is a device that will let us rape the Eldar and I will not betray you."

And he should not have bargained with the Gods in the first place, that was his Biggets mistake


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