# Baddest Warhammer h2h unit?



## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

So which of the available Warhammer Fantasy units dishes out the most abuse in close combat?

Swordmasters? Some form of Daemons?

I need to get my head round this new system so questions like this will crop up frequently!


----------



## Gharof von Carstein (May 19, 2008)

blood knights. pure and simple  3 attacks at S7 (if you get the charge and you mostly will) and 2 mount attacks PER bloodknight. throw in banner of the strigoi and those attacks can get rerolled if missed due to hatred  YAY!


----------



## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

in terms of combat resolution i find my empire greatswords are nigh on unstopable in close combat: 

18 Greatswords
1 Battle standard bearer
1 Warrior priest

i give the battle standard the griffon standard so i get double rank bonus so therfore on the charge i get 4 attacks with great weapons that benifit from hatred
i get 2 from my priest with whatever weapon medley i decide on for the game
and 3 from the captain (BSB)

so without inflicting any wounds i get

6 for ranks
1 for standard
1 for battle standard

so +8 to combat res + any wounds with great weapons isn't half bad and if they charge they are really difficult to break plus if they do break they are stubborn and get a re roll due to BSB 

awesome unit


----------



## Othiem (Apr 20, 2008)

Discount Wargames said:


> 6 for ranks
> 1 for standard
> 1 for battle standard
> 
> so +8 to combat res


That applies to any unit with the war priest/bsb combo, and most of those can get the CR for cheaper. WS4 with great weapon puts them at the same melee potential as your basic dwarf warrior, and the warrior only has a slightly worse armor save, and greater toughness. The bonus of the greatswords is their stubborness, not their combat potential.

Von Carstine's got it right, there is nothing in the game currently that brings the pain better than a squad of blood knights. Playing the bait game with frenzied cavalry is a world of fun. Thank god so few people are willing to cough up the $90 that GW wants for a unit of them.


----------



## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

true enough but for an empire player (i'm loyal to my empire army 13000pts and counting) thats a cool unit

blood knights are good however the new chaos guys will be giving them a challenge those guys hit hard played a few games with the new army book its harsh


----------



## Othiem (Apr 20, 2008)

I hear ya Discount, much love for my greatswords as well, they hold the center of your line like a brick wall. 



Jezlad said:


> I need to get my head round this new system so questions like this will crop up frequently!


The big difference in the h2h systems coming into WFB from 40k is to remember that 

a) armor saves are modified by strength
This makes the tradeoff of high strength attacs vs large numbers of attacks more severe vs heavily armored units, so unit matchups become much more specialized, it's like everybody is playing Eldar.

b) Only the front row can attack back
WFB gives a massive bonus to attacking first, such that the more elite combat units are able to wipe out a whole first row, negating their need for any form of defense. Initiative is a far more important stat in WFB than it is in 40k.


----------



## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

well said that really does sum up the differences well plus in H2H spearmen can attack in two ranks (3 for high elves) so taking spears is a good defensive unit however on the charge they only get the front rank so they tend not to move, great weapons add to strength however they always strike last (unless they charged) this makes them better at wounding stronger units.

so lots of little intricate details make the game quie interesting


----------



## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

its a toss up btween chaos chosen with 2nd hand weapon and MOK

4 attacks each and a lrage unit has survivability

And:

blood knights


----------



## Ancient Tiel' a fier (May 5, 2008)

But of cause it is all speculative judgment as there is an answer to every unit. Fantasy has no super unit formations that cannot be undone. For example the affore mentioned blood knights worst nemesis is in its own army list, Cairn Wraiths cannot be hurt by non magical attacks and have 3 S5 attacks in retaliation.
Fantasy is more about co- ordination of groups of units rather than single super units that can feature in 40k.


----------



## Othiem (Apr 20, 2008)

Ancient Tiel' a fier said:


> But of cause it is all speculative judgment as there is an answer to every unit. Fantasy has no super unit formations that cannot be undone. For example the affore mentioned blood knights worst nemesis is in its own army list, Cairn Wraiths cannot be hurt by non magical attacks and have 3 S5 attacks in retaliation.
> Fantasy is more about co- ordination of groups of units rather than single super units that can feature in 40k.


I don't really count that, ethereal units are few and far between. I'd say the blood knight flaw is in their own stat line, frenzy. Bait them into hellblaster range, then cry as your hellblaster blows itself up and you realize you just pulled a giant mob of hurt behind your own lines.


----------



## Ancient Tiel' a fier (May 5, 2008)

I totally agree, a great eagle is also a problem for them cheap and fast just flee rally flee rally. Im just pointing out that all units have a weakness.


----------



## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

In pure hitting force then blood knights leave a lasting impression, but (as said) WHFB is more about actually manouvering your units cleverly then charging head-on.
Imo no frenzy unit will fit this bill. Against a player that knows how to play they will spend alot of time running on "wild goose hunts". Tho VC's can move magically which makes it a bit less bad, frenzy will always be a liability.

Chosen warriors or Swordmasters do fit quite nicely. Few units can charge swordmasters without problems, and chosen warriors with shields and greatweapons are both a nightmare to charge and be charged by. Actually while thinking about it, the new chosen warriors with a good eye of the god roll is most likely the horror incarnate k:


----------



## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

For elite on horse, I say grail knights a unit of 9 unleashes 14 attacks at strength 6 on the charge, they are all champions and have magical attacks. If you put a army battle standard in the unit and give it the banner of the lady, nothing can with stand this unit only undead and unbreakables.
One foot I would say Swordmasters a unit of 14 gets 14 attacks at strength 5.


----------



## arhain (May 6, 2008)

> But of cause it is all speculative judgment as there is an answer to every unit. Fantasy has no super unit formations that cannot be undone. For example the affore mentioned blood knights worst nemesis is in its own army list, Cairn Wraiths cannot be hurt by non magical attacks and have 3 S5 attacks in retaliation.
> Fantasy is more about co- ordination of groups of units rather than single super units that can feature in 40k.


Dave's "death star unit" (from podhammer) could give your theory a run for your money 

5 black knights
uber combat vamp lord
vamp with drakenof banner

these 7 dudes got charged by a star dragon in the rear and a white lion unit to the front and still came out on top:shok:


----------



## Ancient Tiel' a fier (May 5, 2008)

Black Knights? Big zombie unit charge its corner one to one combat zombie res 5 vs 2/3 dpending on the kills. Resolution kills the vampire in a few turns job done.


----------



## Gharof von Carstein (May 19, 2008)

tiel, what are you talking about wraiths having S5? last time i checked its S3


----------



## Ancient Tiel' a fier (May 5, 2008)

Great weapons bud.


----------



## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

Ancient Tiel' a fier said:


> Black Knights? Big zombie unit charge its corner one to one combat zombie res 5 vs 2/3 dpending on the kills. Resolution kills the vampire in a few turns job done.


I haven't got my rulebook at work Ancient, but I thought GW re-worded Warhammer now so clipping is practically impossible, they actually tell you to fudge the unit so as many figs are touching as possible?

Or did you mean a flank charge, in which case they'd be no issue. :dunno:


----------



## Ancient Tiel' a fier (May 5, 2008)

The wording is that you must align as many models as possible but it also says you may only wheel once, so a well placed unit wheeling only once will clip nicely, or of course yes aim for the flank.


----------



## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

Ah, fair enough I see what you're saying, I think we read it so the charge can have the one wheel, but when it came to alighning bit we'd bring as many models into base as possible, even if it meant turning the units to bring them into conflict or bringing them in closer. Going on the idea that the models turn to recieve the charge as they can see the unit coming. We classify flank/rear charges different as they haven't seen you coming, but we'd still align as many of the charging unit as possible even if it meant the unit went a little further than the charge.

Kinda of how like now in 40K the unit counter charges into CC, because although the game has fixed rules and measurements, it seems odd, that no one is effectively reacting to that charge as it comes in. 

We might be playing it wrong, but I'm happy with how it plays and its certainly stopped any grumbles over clipping.


----------



## Ancient Tiel' a fier (May 5, 2008)

I agree bud and for normal gaming i dont pay too much attention to the one wheel, but in a tourne enviroment the rules must be upheld :wink: so thats a good method.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I'm just having a look at the Blood Knights. I remember when Khornate Chosen Knights, lead by Lord (6 WS8, Str 5 Attacks) on Daemonic Mount/Juggernaught used to be complete and utter demoralization. Having a 10/12 strong unit meant that most armies, short of Ranged Dwarves, maybe Empire, Maybe Wood Elves, maybe Magic and shooty High/Dark Elves, they were completely steam rolled - either the concentration placed on the Big unit of death (6/7 bases wide, to block LOS, and have the greatest amount of models in contact with the wide lines/clumped blocks, meant I had 3-4 units I was up against this one, if ranged, not many standards/musicians, nor ranks, max of 1 on a hill), or the smaller units (usually, Chosen were taken in pairs, small units of Knights, and a Medium (12-16) Chosen on foot.

I just went for the whole big bad Chosen Knights. They thought that the 3 Warrior Units would be a least one chosen (they weren't, although they were all armed the same), and this meant I had lost (thanks to a 3+ save vs. Shooting, from Halberds) 4-6 men from each unit, or maybe 1 unit. When I was in combat though, the Knights were unmatched - 2 Attacks basic, +1 for Khornate (frenzied), followed by my favourite tactic of a couple of Exalted Champions in Chariots with Halberds etc. On a Charge, I could do a maximum of 60 wounds. That's from just 3 units (although it was sort of an eggs in one basket approach).

Marauder Horsemen in front cleared skirmishers (Throwing Axes + Flails = sex), then went into the flanks.

Bah, I've just realised I'm getting off the point hear, but I reiterate, unlike 40K, having that 10 Strong Grey Knight Terminator Squad, with Captain and Master in can win the game for you, the equivalent units in Fantasy can't just go roaring off with axe aplenty, without in turn getting flanked, (No rank bonus, and more attacks to defend against/use against, and being up against a +3 banner bonus in any case, you can find yourself at a loss, unless you can consistantly remove 10+ models from a unit in a turn.

I've recently played a battle report against Dwarves. I shall write it up, and show you (despite some appalling luck early on for me) how effective this set up is.

So for those Tlr, It's a case of an uber unit (which causes the damage) must be supported.

Clearing out flankers/frenzy baiters will slow you down (an extra turn of shooting, despite those 1+ Armour Saves is not a good mix vs. 60 Crossbows =( ), but it is more important you're chewing through their heavies (hitting an Oathstoned Hammerers, Iron Breakers and Shield and Hand Weapon Longbeards =D), instead of wasting yourself on the Cheap and Nasty Great Weapon speedbumbs/Charge diverters, which while annhilated, will net you 120-200 points. You want to get stuck into their 400-500 (or in my case 1200) point elites.

It's why the main battle is elites vs elites, it's the only thing that can stop them, and together, you realise that they're stopping you netting 300 points every couple of turns, and the same for you. When they fight their way through/are defeated, you have a massively depleted unit to contend with, hopefullly minus a hero/BSB).

Work together. Don't get lost in the heat of things - make sure you take advantage of Charge Ranges by shooting etc. Compulsory movement etc is a real pain in the arse to get around, as all Savage Orcs, Witch Elves, Khornate, and Blood Knight players will know about.


----------



## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

Ancient Tiel' a fier said:


> I agree bud and for normal gaming i dont pay too much attention to the one wheel, but in a tourne enviroment the rules must be upheld :wink: so thats a good method.



Ah if we are talking Tournie then aye 100% I'd go with whatever the organisers rule on it, and if thats how it is written, then spot on.

Sounds like we are close, if not on the same page to be honest. :grin:


----------

