# Troop hunting: what to do, what not to do?



## spudboy (Jun 13, 2008)

Well, 5th ed has finally found its way to Japan, and I'm busy looking through the rules. Have yet to try a game (may just plug in to Vassal instead of waiting for time to free up), but I have one question for everyone.

Since troops are the only things that are now able to hold objectives, has troop hunting become a big part of people's games?

An anti-horde force is something I've always looked to when putting a potential army together, but it seems now that the same sort of thinking could be carried over to an anti-troop army. After all, if you wipe out all their troops, what have they got to hold objectives with?

So, with my Eldar, I've been looking towards quantity over quality with shots. More Dire Avengers, Guardians with Scatter Lasers, Wraithlords with flamers and shuriken cannons, etc.. The idea being that enough firepower will mow down a typical assortment of troops (particularly horde-types), or at least keep them down under cover long enough to out-flank and squash them.

Any thoughts on this? Anti-troop armies the way to go now?


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## Underground Heretic (Aug 9, 2008)

Troops are important, but I tend to try to attack armor values. My fire warriors are great against 5+ armor, mediocre against 4+ armor and bad against 3+ or 2+ armor. If you are facing hordes (orks, nid, so on) I would take a fire prism. The Dispersed shot will knock out anyone not in power armor. With two you can possibly wipe out two full squads of horde type or one squad of power armor. It's BS allows you to hit more often with the blast templates. The Wraithlord is great to go toe-to-toe with Monstrous Creatures, but not so much against hordes. Reapers, no. Scorpions, Yes! Avengers, Yes. Guardians, only if they storm and get to charge.


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## spudboy (Jun 13, 2008)

Underground Heretic said:


> Troops are important, but I tend to try to attack armor values. My fire warriors are great against 5+ armor, mediocre against 4+ armor and bad against 3+ or 2+ armor. If you are facing hordes (orks, nid, so on) I would take a fire prism. The Dispersed shot will knock out anyone not in power armor. With two you can possibly wipe out two full squads of horde type or one squad of power armor. It's BS allows you to hit more often with the blast templates. The Wraithlord is great to go toe-to-toe with Monstrous Creatures, but not so much against hordes. Reapers, no. Scorpions, Yes! Avengers, Yes. Guardians, only if they storm and get to charge.


Blast weapons will probably be more vital from here on, I'm sure. No more partial blasts!

2+ save? For troops? Am I forgetting someone?


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## Underground Heretic (Aug 9, 2008)

Terminator armor, Broadsides, and anyone in artificer armor


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## KellysGrenadier (Jul 13, 2008)

Weeeell, it _could_ happen, but I doubt it; if you face Imperial Guard infantry equipped with Camoleoline and sat inside a 3+ cover Sv bunker, they'd have a 2+ Sv.


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## spudboy (Jun 13, 2008)

Underground Heretic said:


> Terminator armor, Broadsides, and anyone in artificer armor


Ah, I see what's happened. I'm talking about the troop category, not infantry in general (so not Elites, Heavy Support, etc.). But, yes, I do see why you'd be worried about them when sizing up your firepower.

KellysGrenadier: yikes. Can you say 'dug in'? Be like picking a piece of beef jerky from between your teeth with a piece of spagetti...


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## Underground Heretic (Aug 9, 2008)

Sorry...yeah...I meant anyone one foot except Dreadnoughts. My fault for not keeping in mind that you were meaning Troops choices.

Also, if you have a squad of Eldar Rangers, upgraded to pathfinders, they get a +2 bonus to their cover save, so a 4+ building or better is a 2+ save.


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## Caratacos (Aug 26, 2008)

As well as Crimson Fist Sternguard if I remember correctly.


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## KellysGrenadier (Jul 13, 2008)

spudboy said:


> yikes.


Yep. I'd say it's a rare occurrence though. Pop that bunker in any case, never assault it. I mean, lets say the Guard have 3 Plasma Guns, and they're Veterans, and you're running into that bunker's field of fire.

You have, potentially, 6 Strength 7, AP 2 shots hitting a a 3+, and to return fire means trying to dislodge troops with a 2+ Invulnerable Sv. Then you'd resolve Lasgun fire, Plasma Pistol fire (should your Veteran Sergeant have it), and whatever else.

However, in any case, they're a static target, so keep out of their 24'' range, and fire ordnance at the bunker.


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## NorthernTau (Jun 24, 2008)

2+ cover saves..at the top of my list of reasons of why I take markerlights with my Tau. Soooo frustrating.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Caratacos said:


> As well as Crimson Fist Sternguard if I remember correctly.


Naw, Sternguard don't become Troops, they just become Scoring. They still use up Elite slots, but for the purposes of capturing, yes, they are essentially Troops. They have normal power armor saves though.


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## Morgal (Sep 26, 2007)

Knowing that my troops are my only scoring units I take enough that i can lose a couple squads and not care.

Also my objective is to stick them in cover near objectives, if they do very little thats okay as long as they hold. Even 10 troops in a 3-4 cover save can take a bit to move.

Also they typically have flamers, this can be hard to assualt.

I would rather you shoot my 6 points a model troops than my anti tank squad, or my officer, or my elites..

If your foe has few troops this may work...but vs most balanced lists i would not count on it.


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## Gannon (Mar 13, 2008)

Cover is the reason they invented things called flamers. 

Morgal-Good point. Any kind of save in cover is better than nothing and give a chance for your unit to stick to the objective. I've found it easier to keep a couple of squads for the sole purpose of taking objectives rather than trying to push a unit into the force that doesn't mesh well. 

I try to get at least 4 troops choices into a balanced 1500 point army. But then again I tried to do that even in 4th edition. It's always been my belief that Troops choices should be the main-stay of an army and were the most flexible unit available to most.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

For most armies, anti-troop is pretty easy. Heavy Bolters (or similar multishot decent AP weapon) supported with frag missiles, massed rifles, and flamers when up close.

However, if you find yourself faced with marines or necrons (very common sight at tables) you're going to want to switch it up and go with heavy AP tank-hunting weapons, anything that bypasses those 3+ saves and nasty high toughness.

A Krak missile, Lascannon or Meltagun will, on average, kill more marines than three shots from a heavy bolter or similar AP4 or worse weapon (except maybe S6 or greater like multilasers), just based on pure math. The lower strength means less chance to wound T4 enemies, and anything that fails to bypass power armor means it'll fail 2/3 of the time, even if you do wound.

Basically, if you're facing MEQs then pack the same heat you would for tank-heavy armies and just grin and bear it. Short of a Demolisher cannon or other piece of high-str AP3 pieplate ordinance, you're just not going to be able to wipe out whole units of marines.

Against everyone else though, anything with a 4 or 5 AP and lots of shots will be able to do the deed


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## spudboy (Jun 13, 2008)

OK, so troops with a 2+ save are a relative rarity. Mostly elites and heavy support.

Most troops choices, it seems, come in the 4+ or lower range for saves, with the two tough-as-nails armies (Marines and Necrons) weighing in at 3+. Knitting together a firing line with AP 5 weapons doesn't look to be too tall an order for most armies (save, maybe, orks).

What I'm driving at is this: with troops being the only things that can hold objectives, would it make sense to gear an army more towards targeting enemy troops, rather than running after the ever-elusive 'balanced' army?


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

balance is still essential, if you have all of your scoring units destroyed, or pulled away from objectives, does it matter that your opponent doesn't have any? you both lose. if you strive for balance, and rely upon those massed basic(what troops get by default) weapons, you will be able to keep your scoring units alive long enough to keep those objectives.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Balanced lists are still important, if for no other reason than the one I just gave: It takes very different gear to fight Marines troops than it does to fight IG troops.

So gear up for everything and just use your brains when the time comes to determine how to distribute your firepower and what parts of the enemy to target.

Just don't forget, killing his troops won;t do much good if he wipes yours out as well.


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## Morgal (Sep 26, 2007)

Balance is still important but.....

balanced lists now need more troops than in 4th edition. A player taking the min 2 squads will have issues scorring.

Since there are now more troops on the table and they are more important a balanced list will have more anti troop than they use to.

So balance is important but it has shifted slightly more troop based.


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## spudboy (Jun 13, 2008)

Hmm... OK, so most people would still say that looking to balance forces, while keeping numbers up in their own troops, would be the way to go.

Now for the next devil's advocate question: Obviously, having enough troops on your end is important, but has there been a shift to defending them as opposed to using them as cannon fodder (or using forces to hunt down enemy troops)? Guardians made great bolt magnets...


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## KellysGrenadier (Jul 13, 2008)

I would say so. Long are the days gone when Guardsmen/Guardians/Other poor bastard were used as walls of bodies. 5ed now demands the smart use of Troop choices, rather than a 'ah, fuck 'em' attitude (which I was never a fan of anyway; why buy the models, spend time assembling and painting them, only for them to be taken off the board 1st or 2nd turn?:crazy::shok.


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## spudboy (Jun 13, 2008)

KellysGrenadier said:


> I would say so. Long are the days gone when Guardsmen/Guardians/Other poor bastard were used as walls of bodies. 5ed now demands the smart use of Troop choices, rather than a 'ah, fuck 'em' attitude (which I was never a fan of anyway; why buy the models, spend time assembling and painting them, only for them to be taken off the board 1st or 2nd turn?:crazy::shok.


Hee hee :grin:. Yeah. Remember someone reccomending I pick up a few guardians as 'expendables' back a while. Now... I want them to bolster things!

Of course, with Necrons, SM, CSM, and Daemons, the troops choices are all pretty nice to begin with. Wouldn't be too hard to make a satisfying force centered on them. For the Eldar and IG... still working out the logistics.

The flip-side to this is creating a nanny brigade to protect your troops. I hope people don't arrive at that as being the 'proper' way to make a 5th ed army...


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## KellysGrenadier (Jul 13, 2008)

I don't know much about Eldar (but I'm sure I will, when my girlfriend starts collecting them...) but I know that given the right upgrades, Imperial Guard infantry can become a very hard, reliable unit. But like with any infantry choice, they need support.


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## Johnny Genocide (Mar 4, 2008)

If you want to Bolster your troops, maybe adding a Warlock with Conceal to give you that cover save. And add an Avatar to keep everything around you from running. I don't know about you but I've seen a big block of 15-20 storm guardians with a Enhancing Warlock and held in check with an Avatar, do some terrible things. But other than that, use Avengers...there amazing.

I'm just lucky that in both my main armies I have Plague Marines and Necron Warriors to fall back on for reliability...and they're very reliable =]


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## Longinus (Apr 21, 2008)

I try to use as many cheap shoots as possible. If we say that IG 3 infantry squads is worth one SM TAC (all full 10 man no upgrades and no command squad, new SM codex), thats 30 shoots at the SM TAC and 60 under 12" sure you its 5+ to wound and no AP but they are going to hurt(and for me I roll best with the worst weapons).


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## Sieg (Dec 3, 2007)

I still field my eldar mostly the same as is 4th edition. I use banshees more but i still just throw DA into a wave serpent and toss some rangers in and call that my army. 

Bladestorm is still amazing at ork and guard hunting. 

Dont worry about changing your army to much from 4th. My buddy still uses his Zilla army at every tournament and still wins with it despite the lack of relevant troops. He just marches up and at very minimum keeps ur troops off the board. Then again... eldar dont have without number so that doesnt work as well for us but o well.


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## spudboy (Jun 13, 2008)

Sieg said:


> I still field my eldar mostly the same as is 4th edition. I use banshees more but i still just throw DA into a wave serpent and toss some rangers in and call that my army.
> 
> Bladestorm is still amazing at ork and guard hunting.
> 
> Dont worry about changing your army to much from 4th. My buddy still uses his Zilla army at every tournament and still wins with it despite the lack of relevant troops. He just marches up and at very minimum keeps ur troops off the board. Then again... eldar dont have without number so that doesnt work as well for us but o well.


Without number is going to be a biiiig thing, I can see.

So some armies do take to the troop hunting idea, eh? I guess we'll just have to see how that plays out.

Rangers (well, pathfinders) look to be more of a choice in 5th. I still need to test this, but sitting them on an objective early and letting them plug away at anything that looks like a threat could be the way to keep something held.


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## Johnny Genocide (Mar 4, 2008)

Yea, I can see Rangers (Pathfinders) being a real problem as well. Being able to fleet to an objective and then next turn and for the rest of the game camping in it with 2+ cover saves with nice guns. Well...that just sucks. 

The only thing that will reliably get them out of there are flamers, and then getting there without being kicked in the balls will be the problem.


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## spudboy (Jun 13, 2008)

Johnny Genocide said:


> Yea, I can see Rangers (Pathfinders) being a real problem as well. Being able to fleet to an objective and then next turn and for the rest of the game camping in it with 2+ cover saves with nice guns. Well...that just sucks.
> 
> The only thing that will reliably get them out of there are flamers, and then getting there without being kicked in the balls will be the problem.


SM Scouts and Fire Warriors are two other ones to look out for, in that sense. The Tau FW especially.


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## Deneris (Jul 23, 2008)

I don't play the Eldar, but I DO fight them almost every weekend. What my Eldar player does is cram in as many Guardian squads as he can, and have each led by a Warlock with _Conceal_. When he starts taking fire, he simply has them "Go to ground", which makes them even tougher to kill at a distance, especially when they're objective-sitting. He also takes a small squad of Guardian jetbikes to try and snatch unattended Objectives in the last turn of the game... Hence he usually chooses to go 2nd. He's also been known to take Wraithguard (With a Warlock for _conceal_, of course) and have them walk up the middle of the board as a distraction AND objective grabbers- Tough to take out their T6 (I believe) with bolters/HB/MLs.

My troops? Thousand Sons, which may be some of the best objective-sitters in the game due to their 3+/4+ saves and AP3 bolters. Need to TAKE an objective? Simply give the Sorcercer Wind of Chaos and watch the dug-in troops literally melt away...


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## Catachan55th (Aug 4, 2008)

With my Catachan army, I have gone for 110troops in two full platoons, one platoon has an autocannon in each squad to increase rate of fire while still being able to penertrate quite thick armour. The army was designed to kill large numbers of heavy troops.

My Blood Pact army has missile launchers and grenade launchers galore, agian with two full platoons, 110 troops. though they may now be more inacurate, I have found the multiple blast radius shots are very, very effect against tightly pact light armoured troops.


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