# Swarmlord



## nate187 (Feb 2, 2009)

Questions questions questions. Does anyone on here fluff wise know if anyone regardless of species, have defeated a swarmlord in single combat? If not who do you think could? 

Cheers :grin:


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Swarmlord#.UWFsr1ecH5o

Maybe at the Battle of Macragge he was killed but so was all the Imperial forces, could of been killed in 1 vs 1.

and that's the only possible.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

There are no direct records. In all likelihood such a creature is most often killed from afar. As Hive Tyrants tend to be easier to deal with that way.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Who could take it one on one? Well it always seemed to me like if they knew he was on a planet for certain, the Xenos Inquisitor would call for Exterminatus and would likely not be disputed by anyone. As far as a one on one thing:

1. Abbaddon
2. The Sanguinor
3. Kharn (maybe)
4. Skulltaker
5. Hector Rex
6. Kaldor Draigo (maybe if he got out the warp)
7. Daemon Primarchs
8. Lost Primarchs
9. A fully armored and armed imperial guard regiment augmented with an imperial fleet.

To be honest from a strategic point of view, I would just call for exterminatus. Something like that you can't take a chance. Beyond the prowess, the thing that makes this creature so dangerous is its mind. It would be worth a planet to see it destroyed even if temporarily.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Any Grey Knight could take a Swarmlord, Dreadknight/Draigo particularly so.

On a more serious note there is a Deathwatch story were Talon Squad fights a 'nid that -might- be a Swarmlord and technically it does get killed in single combat.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> Who could take it one on one?


Lucy could, I bet! Even if he lost, I think the Swarmlord is enough of an individual to take some relish in its victory. Maybe?



Deadeye776 said:


> Beyond the prowess, the thing that makes this creature *so dangerous is its mind. *It would be worth a planet to see it destroyed even if temporarily.


That part _never_ made sense to me. If the Hivemind is some sort of omnipresent force, why is there only one Swarmlord? Why not imbue every Hivetyrant with the knowledge of the Swarmlord? Surely it couldn't be that hard, right?

The idea of a unique leader makes no sense. 



Magpie_Oz said:


> Deathwatch story were Talon Squad fights


/Shiver. That was possibly the most poorly written Space Marine story I had laid eyes on. This includes the 2 Goto books I read when I first started reading WH40k books (hey, I liked DoW!)

It was like reading a bunch of power armored high school teenagers fight. It was so bad.


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## Battman (Nov 2, 2012)

Didn't marnus Calgar punch the swarm lord in the face after the battle for macragge when they next faced the nids that is? because he knew what kind of a threat the swarmlord was.... might be in the tyranid or spacemarine codex. As to who could take him i think Ghazghull 2+ invunerable save and eternal warrior bring forth the beasty


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

hailene said:


> That part _never_ made sense to me. If the Hivemind is some sort of omnipresent force, why is there only one Swarmlord? Why not imbue every Hivetyrant with the knowledge of the Swarmlord? Surely it couldn't be that hard, right?
> 
> The idea of a unique leader makes no sense.


The production of a Swarmlord is a stress-induced response by the Hivemind when it's conventional methods are failing. It's not a conscious action, more a natural reaction.

Midnight


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> The production of a Swarmlord is a stress-induced response by the Hivemind when it's conventional methods are failing. It's not a conscious action, more a natural reaction.
> 
> Midnight


It's probably no easy feat for the Norn Queen producing it either. Might even be fatal. But from an evolutionary standpoint, the bigger/more powerful the brain, the more calories it needs to function. So just to produce a Swarmlord might take the same amount of bio mass needed for 3 Hive Tyrants. 

So the Hive Mind starts freaking out it is losing, argues with itself, spasms and a Norn Queen dies producing an abomination. (Even by Tyranid standards it is.) 


As for defeating it alone. Few have even dared face one in a group. But before they were fragmented a C'Tan could do it. With nothing but a thought, the Swarmlord would explode.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> The production of a Swarmlord is a stress-induced response by the Hivemind when it's conventional methods are failing.


But this in of itself makes no sense.

That means that the Hivemind has some portion of its knowledge and ability to reason locked away. It only brings out this knowledge when needed. Yes, cool, the Tyranids only bring out their A-team when needed...

But why does it need to have an A-team? Shouldn't all its hive tyrants have access to all knowledge that it possesses? Why limit it to one Tyranid? Or even one Tyranid type?

Why not breed all Hive Tyrants with the same knowledge? They're connected to the Hivemind, right? If the Hivemind is the internet, then each Hive Tyrant is a computer. What's so special about the Swarmlord PC that it only gets all the bells and whistles? Do all the other Hive Tyrants not have enough HD space? Then change up their genome and give it to them.

Even if a single "Swarmlord" is much more expensive to make than a single Hive Tyrant, how does this compare to the millions, if not billions, if not TRILLIONS of organisms in a single fleet? Even if a "Swarmlord" is 10 times more expensive to make than a regular Hive Tyrant, surely it would be worth it? The biomass you save with better tactics would surely make up the loss?


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Perhaps it's more the leadership and coherence benefit it provides on the battlefield. Like having all you Generals (the Hive Mind), far away from the conflict, but sending down your competent officer to ensure the job gets done. I mean, I know the Hive Mind is present in all Tyranid organisms, and there are plenty of other synapse creatures, but perhaps the Swarmlord is necessary as an individual. Even if it's just to inspire terror amongst the enemy forces.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> Perhaps it's more the leadership and coherence benefit it provides on the battlefield. Like having all you Generals (the Hive Mind), far away from the conflict, but sending down your competent officer to ensure the job gets done. I mean, I know the Hive Mind is present in all Tyranid organisms, and there are plenty of other synapse creatures, but perhaps the Swarmlord is necessary as an individual. Even if it's just to inspire terror amongst the enemy forces.


Yes but why not have your 'competent officer' present for every battle. Hailene's right it doesn't makes sense for there to be any Hive Tyrants other than Swarmlords. 

@Archon Dan

A fragmented C'tan could still kill the Swarmlord, easily in fact. The sharded C'tan are still unimaginably powerful with control over matter itself.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Rems said:


> Yes but why not have your 'competent officer' present for every battle. Hailene's right it doesn't makes sense for there to be any Hive Tyrants other than Swarmlords.


If you assume a Swarm Lord costs more resources then it makes sense not to just whack it out first thing.

Someone smack me down if I'm wrong but Tyranid "tactics" work on attrition but more importantly to this discussion, escalation. Each threat is countered by a subsequent evolution. 

A good example of this is the second Ultramarines book.
They start with the creatures from the last spawning and they die because they can't handle the cold. The next spawning are suited to the cold.

They get plastered by Imperial bombers. The next spawning includes winged creatures.

The small creatures can't scale the walls. They spawn bio artillery.

Therefore Tyranids only use the biomass that is necessary for a particular objective. Fine if you have a Swarm Lord hanging around from the last spawn he'd be there, but otherwise whatever specific need would have to arise for one to spawned.

My two penneth.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

That is how Tyranids opperate. Even with an all-knowing Hive Mind, their attacks are very animalistic in nature. They adapt to the situation at hand and use biomass as needed. 

Perhaps another reason why the Hive Mind doesn't imbue all Tyrants with all of its knowledge is because it can't. If we keep using the computer analogy, think of it as a bandwidth issue. Not a very strong argument, I know but possible. 

Or maybe the Swarmlord is even a threat to the Tyranids too. They make it out of desperation afterall. It has all that knowledge, maybe it has free will. Pretty sure it does given the way the Hive Tyrant in Heart of Rage behaves. As far as I know, the Hive Mind can't remove itself from a Tyranid, thus killing the creature; a fail safe. So if the Swarmlord "goes rogue" the Hive Mind can't stop it. Before you say that's crazy, it does happen in insect colonies and advanced immune systems; the two things I consider Tyranids similar to.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

> hailene said:
> 
> 
> > Lucy could, I bet! Even if he lost, I think the Swarmlord is enough of an individual to take some relish in its victory. Maybe?
> ...


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

OK, so The Swarmlord is really only the incidental physcial manifestation of a consious construct that is one-of-a-kind in the Milky Way galaxy, and rebroadcasts it's direct experiences to the universal Hive Mind, which can then instantaneously share those experiences with every other Norn Queen if they need some extra juice to squirt out The Swarmlord in order to gobble a particularly indigestible person/place/thing/Empire/Civilization/species/etc.

That's just all kind of suck. Hopefully, your Hive Fleet only has one Norn Queen that does die in the birthing process, otherwise she can just keep pumping out The Swarmlord until it learns enough to kill you. I also imagine that the Hive Mind would mark anyone/unit that kills The Swarmlord to ensure it gets another chance at you the next time you meet.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Gromrir Silverblade said:


> If you assume a Swarm Lord costs more resources then it makes sense not to just whack it out first thing.


But how much more expensive could it be? It's one organism out of trillions, if not quadtrillions, within a hivefleet.

Sure, a 10 million dollar house is expensive as hell, but when weighed against the total wealth of a country it's absolutely tiny.



Gromrir Silverblade said:


> Someone smack me down if I'm wrong but Tyranid "tactics" work on attrition but more importantly to this discussion, escalation. Each threat is countered by a subsequent evolution.


What you describe is less escalation and more adaption. The situation changes and your creatures evolve to match. That's fine.

The thing is, the Swarmlord is, (to our knowledge) hands down the best commander they have. This is a static situation. You don't need Hive Tyrant A to fight this kind of war. or Hive Tyrant B to fight that kind of war. The Swarmlord is the best choice every time.



Archon Dan said:


> Even with an all-knowing Hive Mind, their attacks are very animalistic in nature.


Yes, this bothers me greatly. We know that the Hivemind can be very tactically and strategically savvy, yet it constantly wastes biomass in inefficient tactics.

Not saying that overwhelming an opponent isn't the right tactic every time, but if it's your go to tactic...



Archon Dan said:


> Perhaps another reason why the Hive Mind doesn't imbue all Tyrants with all of its knowledge is because it can't.


This is as valid reason as any I have heard so far.

Though it seems odd. I mean, our memories are nothing more than imprints in our brains. Surely if you can grow these memories into the Swarmlord, then you should have no issue implanting these memories into any other Hive Tyrant?

In the Tyranid codex it mentions that when Hive Tyrants are killed, "the Hive Mind can simply grow a replacement, imbuing it with the same experiences, character and knowledge as its predecessor."

Why not breed multiple Swarmlords with this process?



Archon Dan said:


> Or maybe the Swarmlord is even a threat to the Tyranids too. They make it out of desperation afterall. It has all that knowledge, maybe it has free will.


On one hand, this would be extremely interesting to see. The Swarmlord becoming its own Hivemind of sorts and fighting for its own gains.

On the other hand, it reeks of the same fluff catastrophe (in my opinion) that struck the Necrons. You take an entirely soulless, alien force and make it more...human. It takes away some of the terror, you know?

When the old Necrons came a knockin', you either fought and won, ran, or died. No negotiations. No honorable retreats after a good fight. No fickle Dark Overlord moments where the Victor decides to let the heroes go home because its the second Tuesday of the month.

It was like a natural disaster. There was no remorse. 

At least we still have the Tyranids. We shouldn't try to put human traits to everything!



Deadeye776 said:


> So your sayin that Lucius would take over a creature who is the manifestation of the Hivemind?


Hive Tyrants are a bit special. They're not simply automatons of the Hivemind like other Tyranid creatures. They're "incredibly intelligent and completely self-aware". 

I think there was a post or thread about whether or not Lucy could take over the Hivemind. The end result was, I think, a general no. Lucy's power as a pawn of Slaneesh wasn't powerful enough to overwhelm the psychic might of the Hivemind.



Deadeye776 said:


> Um, for the same reason Khorne doesn't have an army of Angraath's, Skulltakers, or Skarbrand's. It's hard to make creatures of that power level and to lose them to in whatever situation would suck. Every military needs commanders of varying levels and the Hive Mind is no different.


Wait, what? Greater Daemons are one of a kind. You can't make more of them.

The Swarmlord is different. It can be remade whenever and wherever as needed, per the codex.

The Swarmlord's soul (if it even possesses) one isn't what is important. What is important is its knowledge, the ability to learn, and the ability to utilize its knowledge to overcome an opponent. I don't see why the Hivemind couldn't create more and more of them. At least one per major fleet fragment.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

> Hive Tyrants are a bit special. They're not simply automatons of the Hivemind like other Tyranid creatures. They're "incredibly intelligent and completely self-aware".





> I think there was a post or thread about whether or not Lucy could take over the Hivemind. The end result was, I think, a general no. Lucy's power as a pawn of Slaneesh wasn't powerful enough to overwhelm the psychic might of the Hivemind.


 
At no point did I not say they weren't special. But there's a difference in a regular bloodthirster and a creature like Angraath or Skarbrand. The are specialized and favored. Same thing like the Swarmlord. You have your regular commanding Hive Tyrant and then you have the Swarmlord. 




> Wait, what? Greater Daemons are one of a kind. You can't make more of them.
> 
> The Swarmlord is different. It can be remade whenever and wherever as needed, per the codex.
> 
> The Swarmlord's soul (if it even possesses) one isn't what is important. What is important is its knowledge, the ability to learn, and the ability to utilize its knowledge to overcome an opponent. I don't see why the Hivemind couldn't create more and more of them. At least one per major fleet fragment.


[/QUOTE]

Daemons whether great or minor are all a portion of their patron gods power.Now that means that if destroyed and the God has enough power to do so they can be remade.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> Daemons whether great or minor are all a portion of their patron gods power.


Completely different. What makes a Greater Daemon? It's a unique piece of the immaterium. Its particular deeds and rituals done to worship it make up what the daemon is. They have a history that can not be brushed aside.

What is the Swarmlord? An amalgamation of biomass with a certain level of knowledge and thinking ability. If you can make one, you can make make many.

So what is the difference? One can only exist as an individual. Perhaps it could be fragmented and in multiple places at once, but still, on the whole, they are unique.

The Swarmlord isn't--or rather, shouldn't--be something unique. If the Hivemind can make one, they can make more. That's their nature. It's fundamentally different from the Warp.

Let's say that the Swarmlord has a unique soul. There can only be one.

Then make a Hive Tyrant with all the same knowledge and thinking ability. Call it whatever you want. It's effectively a second Swarmlord. Then a third. Then a fourth.

The name or soul isn't important for the Swarmlord. It's its ability to learn and lead that matter. There's no reason why the Hivemind couldn't have multiple instances of Swarmlord-like Hive Tyrants existing together.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

hailene said:


> Completely different. What makes a Greater Daemon? It's a unique piece of the immaterium. Its particular deeds and rituals done to worship it make up what the daemon is. They have a history that can not be brushed aside.


I have to agree, I think the difference is that a daemon is an individual albeit an individual that forms part of a chaos god. It's one facet of idea, for example Nurgle is the god of disease, a greater daemon is one type of disease. Or Khorne is the god of wrath/war/anger etc so one facet could be revenge. In the same way a daemon is an individual.

A swarmlord however is an evolution to a specific problem, and perhaps can be thought of as a sub species of tyrannid rather than an individual. Obviously a single swarmlord is a individual in itself but it's designation as swarmlord by it's very nature is a grouping rather than an individual.

My two penneth


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

When one destroys a greater demon only its physical body is destroyed, its immaterial, warp, body/soul is still alive, for as long as its patron puts up with it.



hailene said:


> Let's say that the Swarmlord has a unique soul. There can only be one.


You are assuming that the Swarmlord's soul is destroyed along with the body, what if the Hive mind grabs the soul before after the bodies death and then just crams it in another body.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

locustgate said:


> You are assuming that the Swarmlord's soul is destroyed along with the body, what if the Hive mind grabs the soul before after the bodies death and then just crams it in another body.


Actually, I wasn't.

My point is that the soul--whether saved or not, whether it exists or not--is immaterial. Its ability to outthink and outfight his opponents that matter. That ability you can repackage into as many Hive Tyrants (or Hive Tyrant variants) as the Hivemind needs.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

> hailene said:
> 
> 
> > Completely different. What makes a Greater Daemon? It's a unique piece of the immaterium. Its particular deeds and rituals done to worship it make up what the daemon is. They have a history that can not be brushed aside.
> ...


You mean why the Hive Mind doesn't have multiple Swarmlord-like beasts leading it's armies? Maybe because one it's costly. Two, that much independence could possibly lead to bad things in an army made up of savage beasts. Finally the point of the Swarmlord is basically to manifest when the tactics and plans of the Hive Mind prove inneffecive. He manifests to think outside the box. In a race of rabid creatures that in itself is unique.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> What makes a daemon is the power of one of he four chaos gods otherwise its just an insane manifestation of emotion.


...And which the Chaos gods are empowered by the deeds and rituals done in their name. 

Can you agree that a daemon is one of a kind? A particular daemon is one of a kind? They're not going to be producing a dozen Angrons any time soon, right?



Deadeye776 said:


> Um, no. The Swarmlord itself represents the manifestation of the HIve MInds unconventional will and intellect. That in itself means that it has to be unique as mass producing out of the box thinking isn't rational.


How so? Why would the Hivemind either purposely or by some freak accident be unable or unwilling to give its other Hive Tyrants the same information?

We know the Swarmlord isn't a unique body. It can die. It can re-manifest else where. Clearly the Hivemind is able to create more than a single Swarmlord. But why not more than once at a time?



Deadeye776 said:


> While some daemons are, you have armies of daemons that pretty much all look and behave alike.


This isn't proof that they are. Keep in mind that cross-species identification is difficult. This is hammered in the universe. Both human to alien and alien to human.

Heck, even Space Marines from the same geneseed tend to look the same to humans.



Deadeye776 said:


> If the Hive Mind loses the Swarmlord, next battle they will recreate the Swarmlord. That's unique. No whole new entity, just the same creature with new tricks.


Yes, this is the case. But that's not my question. The question is WHY is this the case?

You don't need multiple Swarmlords. As I said before, even if the Swarmlord is a unique person that can not be copied, why not have multiple Hive Tyrants with Swarmlord-like capabilities? Surely that's within the Hive Mind's ability? Even if it costs considerably more to create and maintain a Hive Tyrant with the Swarmlord's abilities, it'd surely be worth it. The biomass you'd save from the wars they'd lead would make up the difference easily.



Deadeye776 said:


> It's starting to dawn on me that you may not be that educated on the subject of what the Swarmlord truly is. Pretty much he's the closest thing to an independent manifestation of the HIve Mind itself.


It's starting to dawn on me that you may be educated on the subject of what I am talking about.

I am more than aware of the unique situation that the Swarmlord is. The question is...

Why? Why have a unique super-commander. Could you imagine if the Hivemind created a super bad ass Tyranid Warrior that is absolutely bad ass? One that's superior to any other Tyranid Warrior in melee, ranged, infiltration, tactics, ect.? And then the Hivemind decided to make only one?

In almost any other army, having a unique individual makes sense. The Imperium has only one Dante. They can not produce more. Even if they decided to clone him, they couldn't infuse him with the same knowledge, experience, and personal memories that the current Dante has. These clones would be different. Hence why we can only have one Dante.

The Swarmlord is different. The Hivemind can make perfect copies--clones--at will. The Swarmlord itself is still connected to the Hivemind (hence why it can die and be reborn with any knowledge it had learned, much like normal Hive Tyrants). So why doesn't the Hivemind just simply infuse this knowledeg into more than Hive Tyrant at a time? If it's a matter of "hardware" then the Hivemind can make multiple bodies that are exactly the same as a Swarmlord. That is, after all, what it does when the Swarmlord dies and is reborn.



Deadeye776 said:


> You mean why the Hive Mind doesn't have multiple Swarmlord-like beasts leading it's armies?


You got my point at the end.



Deadeye776 said:


> Maybe because one it's costly.


How much more costly could it be? We know the Tyranids primary tactic is attrition. Surely the Swarmlord's refined tactics would make up the difference? 



Deadeye776 said:


> Two, that much independence could possibly lead to bad things in an army made up of savage beasts.


The Swarmlord isn't all that independent. The Codex states it has a "glimmer of autonomy". 

And isn't that precisely _why_ you'd want a Swarmlord? You army from a group of savage beats to a finely tuned formation of death?



Deadeye776 said:


> Finally the point of the Swarmlord is basically to manifest when the tactics and plans of the Hive Mind prove inneffecive. He manifests to think outside the box.


Again, why? Why does the Hivemind gives to other Hive? To make wars interesting? To give its prey a fighting chance? Because it's fun?

Why not always put the best foot forward?



Deadeye776 said:


> In a race of rabid creatures that in itself is unique.


The idea of "unique" makes no sense in race of manufactured beings slaved to a single being's intellect. Which is my point.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Actually I have a question in line with something you have just said, in what way does a Swarmlord's control of the brood differ from that of the Hive Mind? Is it that it can react better? Faster synapses? What?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Gromrir Silverblade said:


> n what way does a Swarmlord's control of the brood differ from that of the Hive Mind?


It differs that the Swarmlord is a conduit for the Hivemind. Going back to my computer analogy, the Hivemind is the internet cloud with all the information the internet possess while the Swarmlord is the end user and his desktop.

If you were asking how the Swarmlord differs from other Hive Tyrants...

The only really explict difference is that the Swarmlord "possesses a glimmer of autonomy". It uses this autonomy to out think its opponents...

Which doesn't really make all that much sense, given how the Tyranid work. Why bother giving it autonomy? It's not like a person. It won't get angry or rebellious if you restrict its freedom--whether physical or mental.

That'd be like giving a non-sentient AI autonomy.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

So what is the difference for your average Termagaunt when he is being direct by the hivemind as opposed to being directed by the swarmlord?


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## Tobes (Apr 18, 2013)

what about bio titans? much more mass than a swarmlord, much more killy

me thinks you're looking too hard for logic in a game that is set in an alternate futureverse. 

0-1 just keeps you from cheeseing out an all swarmlord army


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The most faulty assumption in this thread is that the Hive Mind is a self aware entity in and of itself. It is described as the gestalt consciousness of the tyranid race. 

If we define the word "gestalt." 

A collection of physical, biological, psychological or symbolic elements that creates a whole, unified concept or pattern *which is other than the sum of its parts*, due to the relationships between the parts (of a character, personality, entity, or being) 

"Other than the sum of its parts." Meaning it is separate from the numerous Hive Tyrants and overminds of each and every Hive Fleet. From this and from information in the tyranid codex we know that each Hive Tyrant is a separate self aware entity. Presumably by the nature of the tyranids this means that separate minds exist within a Hive Fleet and it is into the bodies of the Hive Tyrants that these minds manifest themselves. 

The Swarmlord therefore, is one such mind. It is described as being far more powerful than a typical Hive Tyrant, able to project its essence to any Hive Fleet rather than being bound to a single fleet as is apparently the case with other tyrants. 

The role of the Hive Tyrants is as battlefield leaders. And though each and every one has the collective knowledge of the tyranid race at its disposal, it still falls to them as individuals to interpret and apply that information. Remember that the Hive Mind is not in direct control, it is a shared collective of knowledge and experience. Thus we can safely assume that some tyrants are simply more capable than others, and the Swarmlord is in a class completely its own. 

When you think about it, the bulk of information we are given makes no sense if we assume that the Hive Mind controls everything, providing the best evidence of all to assume that it does not.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Remember that the Hive Mind is not in direct control,


"The Hive Mind holds all Tyranid creatures in a psychic bond that enables them to act together as one gesalt organism. *It is a single coordinating sentience* formed from untold billions of individuals..."

"Larger and more complicated beasts are able to make limited decisions appropriate to their situation, but even these actions are *subordinate to the will and goals of the Hive Mind*."

Everything is under the Hive Mind's purview. The only difference is the length of leash.



Serpion5 said:


> It is described as being far more powerful than a typical Hive Tyrant


Here is one question I want answered. This is what everything hinges on:

What makes the Swarmlord special?

Experience? The Hive Mind possess all experience all of its member have. 

Intelligence? What determines how intelligent a person is? Experience (which all the Tyranids can draw from) and the ability to use that experience. In simpler terms, I guess it's the old argument of nurture vs nature. The thing is, the Tyranids can have both.

Is it nature? Well, they clearly are capable of making clones of anything up to and including the Swarmlord itself. If it is something inherent to his brain composition or something, then they can remake it. As they clearly already have.

Is it nurture? Is it some sort of knowledge or experience the Swarmlord itself possesses? 
Everything is given to and slaved to the Hive Mind. Anything the Swarmlord could have learned would be at its beck and call.

Even if there is such a thing as an individual which individual thoughts or understanding...there is no reason why the Hive Mind could not make an exact replica of it. Both mentally and physically.



Serpion5 said:


> When you think about it, the bulk of information we are given makes no sense if we assume that the Hive Mind controls everything, providing the best evidence of all to assume that it does not.


I would love to, if it doesn't explicitly say otherwise.

They're trying to personalize and humanize the Tyranids to make them more palatable to the consumer. Similar to what they did to the Necrons. They changed them from a bunch of cold, calculating death machines to a bunch of whimsical tyrants. 

The idea of individual, unique Tyranids spits in the eye of what it is to be a Hive Mind.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

hailene said:


> "The Hive Mind holds all Tyranid creatures in a psychic bond that enables them to act together as one gesalt organism. It is a single coordinating sentience formed from untold billions of individuals..."
> 
> "Larger and more complicated beasts are able to make limited decisions appropriate to their situation, but even these actions are subordinate to the will and goals of the Hive Mind."
> 
> Everything is under the Hive Mind's purview. The only difference is the length of leash.


I know this is quoted, what I have a problem with is the fact that it is almost directly contradicted by the Hive Tyrant's entry later on, depicting the creatures as "highly intelligent and completely self aware." 

An answer might be found later in that same entry however; "Such is the way of the tyranids - the strong endure and the weak perish." Why the Hive Mind would pit its own hive tyrants in an impromptu contest of survival makes little sense, unless we consider the possibility that it is just another facet of furthering the mental evolution of its constituents as well as the biological. 



hailene said:


> Here is one question I want answered. This is what everything hinges on:
> 
> What makes the Swarmlord special?


Its age. It is descrbed as being as old as the tyranid race itself, therefore implying that the incarnations of other hive tyrants are younger. We have no idea what process is involved in the "birth" of a new hive tyrant per se, but it seems to be implied that older minds are somehow more powerful. 



hailene said:


> Experience? The Hive Mind possess all experience all of its member have.


Nope. Experience of creatures cut off from the Hive Mind cannot be shared. 



hailene said:


> Intelligence? What determines how intelligent a person is? Experience (which all the Tyranids can draw from) and the ability to use that experience. In simpler terms, I guess it's the old argument of nurture vs nature. The thing is, the Tyranids can have both.


This is debateable. Presumably all minds within a Hive Fleet can share knowledge, but we don't know for sure how the distance of space may affect communication between fleets. All we have confirmed is that the Swarmlord is able to manifest itself in any Hive Fleet, but whether this is the Swarmlord's doing or the Hive Fleet's is as yet not confirmed. 



hailene said:


> Is it nature? Well, they clearly are capable of making clones of anything up to and including the Swarmlord itself. If it is something inherent to his brain composition or something, then they can remake it. As they clearly already have.


Then clearly that is not the case is it? The Swarmlord, indeed all Hive Tyrants must possess their own psychic signature, the tyranids equivalent to a soul or such within the Hive Mind. Given that the creatures have already been confirmed as self aware, it follows that distinct personalities and individual natures may apply. This is not something you can simply replicate. 

The Hive Tyrants are described as being able to learn from their own mistakes. This ability is meaningless if all their experience and knowledge are shared with each and every other tyrant in existence, leading me further to believe that the Hive Mind is not as all encompassing as you think and must have at least *some* limitations. 



hailene said:


> Is it nurture? Is it some sort of knowledge or experience the Swarmlord itself possesses?
> Everything is given to and slaved to the Hive Mind. Anything the Swarmlord could have learned would be at its beck and call.





hailene said:


> Even if there is such a thing as an individual which individual thoughts or understanding...there is no reason why the Hive Mind could not make an exact replica of it. Both mentally and physically.


Lending more credibility to the individual psychic signatures theory no? 



hailene said:


> I would love to, if it doesn't explicitly say otherwise.


Yes but remember the term Hive Mind is one used by the Imperium who really have near zero understanding of how the tyranid race functions internally. 

For the line which states that the Hive Mind is a single co-ordinating sentience, keep in mind that no scale is given in reference so we cannot assume that the Hive Mind is micro managing every tyranid on the battlefield. For all we know it could simply be co-ordinating the movements of the fleet itself, delegating battlefield specifics to the Hive Tyrants who in turn delegate control of the swarm to the various warriors and synapse nodes among them. 

Further, that piece of text is essentially paraphrased from earlier editions and is a sweeping generalization of the tyranids which I chose to interpret as such. And since it is so contradiced by far more numerous pieces of fluff... well no writer is perfect.  



hailene said:


> They're trying to personalize and humanize the Tyranids to make them more palatable to the consumer. Similar to what they did to the Necrons. They changed them from a bunch of cold, calculating death machines to a bunch of whimsical tyrants.
> 
> The idea of individual, unique Tyranids spits in the eye of what it is to be a Hive Mind.


Trying. :laugh: 

It's no different to the arachnids being led by a named brain bug in Starship Troopers, the cerebrates being named individuals in Starcraft, the Borg having a self aware Queen in Star Trek, or the replicators eventually making self aware human form leaders in Stargate. 

I really don't see the problem with that last bit.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Sorry about the late response. I had family over. Back to the post!



Serpion5 said:


> depicting the creatures as "highly intelligent and completely self aware."


Something could be intelligent and self-aware...it's just under control of the Hive Mind. Imagine if someone put a remote control in your brain and could control you through it. You'd still have your own thoughts and self-identity, but at anytime the person could force you to do anything they wanted.

Maybe the Hive Mind only has so much...bandwith? So for mundane things it allows you to do what you want, but when push comes to shove it'll enforce its own will?



Serpion5 said:


> but it seems to be implied that older minds are somehow more powerful.


Could you cite this source? I'm not aware older makes better...sorta at odds with the whole gesalt consciousness.



Serpion5 said:


> Nope. Experience of creatures cut off from the Hive Mind cannot be shared.


True, but isn't the Swarmlord _always_ connected to the Hive Mind? The entire point of synapse creatures is their ability to link to the Hive Mind.



Serpion5 said:


> but we don't know for sure how the distance of space may affect communication between fleets.


We do. A couple of quotes:

"Indeed, the separate Hive Fleets appear to be self-sufficent, exhibiting different, characteristic strategies and developing unique creatures to overcome their prey. However, the truth is more complex than any could imagine, for _each Hive Fleet is but a splinter of one greater assemblage, acting under the instruction of a single monstrous and unfathomable intelligence - the Hive Mind_."

After the defeat of Hive Fleet Gorgon, the remainders flee the Tau.

"These Hive Ships carried with them the full span of Gorgon's experiences in the battle with the Tau...the Tau erroneously believed that this knowledge could only be transfered if the Hive Ships survived to make contact with other Tyranids that even now advanced upon the Tau Empire."

And of course my earlier quote that said that all Tyranids are under the control of the Hive Mind. If everything is controlled by the Hive Mind, and the Hive Mind is made up of the consciousness of all of its individuals, then naturally everything ought to be shareable, right? 



Serpion5 said:


> indeed all Hive Tyrants must possess their own psychic signature


Source? We know that Hive Tyrants are psychic, but where does it say that each one has a unique soul?

And as I said, even if there is a unique soul known as the Swarmlord...why is its ability to think and fight linked to its soul? Tactics boils down to education and intelligence. Nothing to our knowledge links these facets to a soul.



Serpion5 said:


> This is not something you can simply replicate.


Why not? Each mind and personality is nothing more than hardware (the brain and its makeup) and software (its experience).

If you made a perfect copy of me and put all my experience and memories into it, then it would act and perform like me. Things would only become different as our own bodies (say, if he got in an accident and lost an arm) and experiences started diverging.



Serpion5 said:


> Lending more credibility to the individual psychic signatures theory no?


How so? What I am saying that even IF there is some sort of psychic signature you could make a new Hive Tyrant that is for all purposes no different than a Swarmlord. It may have a different soul, but it is equally capable on the battlefield. 



Serpion5 said:


> Yes but remember the term Hive Mind is one used by the Imperium who really have near zero understanding of how the tyranid race functions internally.


No, we have quotations with the understanding of the Imperium given and what the reality of the situation is (as real as a fictional universe can be).

The other stuff can be understood as being written from an omnipotent viewpoint.



Serpion5 said:


> keep in mind that no scale is given in reference so we cannot assume that the Hive Mind is micro managing every tyranid on the battlefield


So long as there's a synapse creature nearby, the Hive Mind has control.

"The Hive Mind's influence is the strongest in the vicinity of [synapse creatures]...Under the command of such creatures the Tyranids operate in perfect unison, slaved to the psychic imperatives of a single communal intelligence."

It goes on to say this connection is with the Hive Mind as well.



Serpion5 said:


> It's no different to the arachnids being led by a named brain bug in Starship Troopers


In the book I don't believe it's stated that the brain bugs or queens have personalities as we understand it.



Serpion5 said:


> the cerebrates being named individuals in Starcraft


Yeah, really stupid there, too.



Serpion5 said:


> the Borg having a self aware Queen in Star Trek


As a Star Trek fan, I know the community is very angry with this.

DITL.org has a few paragraphs on the matter.

http://www.ditl.org/pagarticle.php?ArticleID=1&ListID=Articles

It's under "The Borg, Personified" if you care to read it. Its where I got my inspiration for my own dislike of this direction of personifying the Tyranids and Necron.



Serpion5 said:


> I really don't see the problem with that last bit.


I see it as a problem with either the writers or the audience. Or both. Someone or some people can't seem to wrap their mind around the idea of an emotionless, collective society. If we have to individualize them to make them sellable then why bother making them an emotionless, collective entity in the first place?

It cheapens the concept.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

hailene said:


> Something could be intelligent and self-aware...it's just under control of the Hive Mind. Imagine if someone put a remote control in your brain and could control you through it. You'd still have your own thoughts and self-identity, but at anytime the person could force you to do anything they wanted.
> 
> Maybe the Hive Mind only has so much...bandwith? So for mundane things it allows you to do what you want, but when push comes to shove it'll enforce its own will?


I believe the Hive Mind to have limits, in the same way as the Chaos Gods can influence, but not exert complete control over their constituents. Even though a daemon is essentially slaved to the will of their god, they are still in their own mind independent and self serving. 

We could liken this to a Hive Tyrant or similarly powerful synapse creature such as a Warrior Prime acting under its own judgement and interpretation of any given situation, seemingly acting of its own accord whilst all the while it furthers the agenda of the Hive Mind. The illusion of Free Will so to speak. 



hailene said:


> Could you cite this source? I'm not aware older makes better...sorta at odds with the whole gesalt consciousness.


There is no given source, all I have is the implication of varying ages due to the swarmlord being cited "as old as the tyranid race itself." 



hailene said:


> True, but isn't the Swarmlord always connected to the Hive Mind? The entire point of synapse creatures is their ability to link to the Hive Mind.


Though it is no longer reflected on the tabletop, the link to the Hive Mind can be blocked and even exploited as seen in Warriors of Ultramar. 



hailene said:


> We do. A couple of quotes:
> 
> "Indeed, the separate Hive Fleets appear to be self-sufficent, exhibiting different, characteristic strategies and developing unique creatures to overcome their prey. However, the truth is more complex than any could imagine, for each Hive Fleet is but a splinter of one greater assemblage, acting under the instruction of a single monstrous and unfathomable intelligence - the Hive Mind."


All of these Hive Fleets have thus far been located and move within a relatively small section of the galaxy. Hive Fleet Behemoth is crushed, Hive Fleet Kraken is broken and scattered towards the galactic core. Hive Fleet Leviathan covers a vast distance, however it is comprised of numerous smaller fleets between two main tendrils allowing for a greater front. 

The remnants of Hive Fleet Kraken have been described as moving seemingly at random, implying a _possibility_ of a strained or severed connection to the Greater Fleet. I admit there is no way of confirming this, but given the self aware nature of Hive Tyrants (and presumably the higher bioforms as well) this would not present a real hindrance either way. 



hailene said:


> After the defeat of Hive Fleet Gorgon, the remainders flee the Tau.
> 
> "These Hive Ships carried with them the full span of Gorgon's experiences in the battle with the Tau...the Tau erroneously believed that this knowledge could only be transfered if the Hive Ships survived to make contact with other Tyranids that even now advanced upon the Tau Empire."
> 
> And of course my earlier quote that said that all Tyranids are under the control of the Hive Mind. If everything is controlled by the Hive Mind, and the Hive Mind is made up of the consciousness of all of its individuals, then naturally everything ought to be shareable, right?


Given that astropaths are able to share knowledge over distances, this follows yes. 



hailene said:


> Source? We know that Hive Tyrants are psychic, but where does it say that each one has a unique soul?
> 
> And as I said, even if there is a unique soul known as the Swarmlord...why is its ability to think and fight linked to its soul? Tactics boils down to education and intelligence. Nothing to our knowledge links these facets to a soul.


It is an assumption based on their behaviour and the fact that one such individual is confirmed to exist. The word soul in this context is used to refer to a specific set of thought patterns and experiences linked to any given Hive Tyrant within a Hive Fleet. Some further quotes to consider: 

"Unlike many other tyranid creatures, Hive Tyrants are incredibly intelligent and completely self aware." 

This is meaningless if they are _completely_ under the Hive Mind's direction. 

"Whilst they are still slaved to the gestalt consciousness of the Hive Mind, they are permitted a far wider latitude in achieving their goals and can even learn from their mistakes." 

Implying that their goals and and thinking patterns still reflect the Hive Mind's will whilst being more independent and unpredictable. Like the daemon comparison I made earlier. 

"Should a Hive Tyrant be slain, the Hive Mind can simply grow a replacement, imbuing it with the same experiences, character and knowledge as its predecessor." 

Presumably more successful minds are given more urgent reincarnation than lesser ones. This is logic talking, not a given source. For why would the Hive Mind bother otherwise? 

"A new Tyrant joined the fray and, in an eyeblink, the whole character of the swarm changed. The ravening berzerker-spirit that had driven the tyranids onto the ridge was gone as if it had never existed. Left in its place something cannier and infinitely more worrisome. It was then I knew the battle to be lost." 

I just like that one.  



hailene said:


> Why not? Each mind and personality is nothing more than hardware (the brain and its makeup) and software (its experience).
> 
> If you made a perfect copy of me and put all my experience and memories into it, then it would act and perform like me. Things would only become different as our own bodies (say, if he got in an accident and lost an arm) and experiences started diverging.


I don't see what you're trying to say here. For all you know this is exactly the case, each Hive Tyrant could simply be a clone of the rest and the differences between them are a direct result of their various experiences. Like I said earlier, strength of character and experience could be exactly what the Hive Mind is trying to achieve, observing advantageous traits as well as weaknesses as it searches for ways to improve its greatest servants for the long term. 



hailene said:


> How so? What I am saying that even IF there is some sort of psychic signature you could make a new Hive Tyrant that is for all purposes no different than a Swarmlord. It may have a different soul, but it is equally capable on the battlefield.


Again, this may not be the point. 



hailene said:


> No, we have quotations with the understanding of the Imperium given and what the reality of the situation is (as real as a fictional universe can be).
> 
> The other stuff can be understood as being written from an omnipotent viewpoint.


True enough, that's my bad. >< 



hailene said:


> So long as there's a synapse creature nearby, the Hive Mind has control.
> 
> "The Hive Mind's influence is the strongest in the vicinity of [synapse creatures]...Under the command of such creatures the Tyranids operate in perfect unison, slaved to the psychic imperatives of a single communal intelligence."
> 
> It goes on to say this connection is with the Hive Mind as well.


Indirectly yes. The "single communal intelligence" could be a battlefield commander or an orbiting Hive Ship. 



hailene said:


> In the book I don't believe it's stated that the brain bugs or queens have personalities as we understand it.


I wouldn't know, I only saw the one good movie and one of the awful ones, but suppose they "don't exist." 



hailene said:


> Yeah, really stupid there, too.


Not necessarily. No cerebrate was ever shown to communicate with a human, however the mission briefings and in game messages could simply be a way for the player to interpret zerg communications. Naturally Kerrigan would be the exception, having both Zerg psionic links as well as the retained ability of human speech. 



hailene said:


> As a Star Trek fan, I know the community is very angry with this.
> 
> DITL.org has a few paragraphs on the matter.
> 
> ...


I refuse to touch on the necron issue here, it's been done to death nearly half a dozen times over now. In regards to the borg, I am only aware of them as a concept and have never watched any but the occasional episode or movie and I couldn't name which ones if I tried. :laugh: As far as I understand it they are similar to the replicators, which went on from being a faceless enemy to having a few key individuals develop sentience and become more "human" as it were. 



hailene said:


> I see it as a problem with either the writers or the audience. Or both. Someone or some people can't seem to wrap their mind around the idea of an emotionless, collective society. If we have to individualize them to make them sellable then why bother making them an emotionless, collective entity in the first place?
> 
> It cheapens the concept.


This is a matter of perspective. I think the replicators are in fact the best example of this idea. They began as a horde of mindless automata slaved to a single collective will that oversaw their actions. Following numerous defeats at the hands of humans and other similar beings, they sought to overcome their own weaknesses by mimicking those that had defeated them. 

The human form replicators were capable of more human thought, greater perception and had the ability to comprehend and exploit human emotion. The one among their number to actually think like a human was deemed a failure. 


When you think about it, each of the factions I mentioned may have gained some depth but they never really lost the core of what made them scary in the first place (bog maybe excepted.  ) 

The zerg were always driven to become the perfect life form. Every individual mind among them shared the same goal in the end, the named cerebrates and the Overmind itself. 

The replicators were always driven to increase their numbers. Having human form kin did not change that. 

The tyranids have always been driven by one goal, to feed and survive. Different minds within the swarm taking different approaches doesn't change that.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

hailene said:


> Something could be intelligent and self-aware...it's just under control of the Hive Mind. Imagine if someone put a remote control in your brain and could control you through it. You'd still have your own thoughts and self-identity, but at anytime the person could force you to do anything they wanted.
> 
> Maybe the Hive Mind only has so much...bandwith? So for mundane things it allows you to do what you want, but when push comes to shove it'll enforce its own will?


I believe the Hive Mind to have limits, in the same way as the Chaos Gods can influence, but not exert complete control over their constituents. Even though a daemon is essentially slaved to the will of their god, they are still in their own mind independent and self serving. 

We could liken this to a Hive Tyrant or similarly powerful synapse creature such as a Warrior Prime acting under its own judgement and interpretation of any given situation, seemingly acting of its own accord whilst all the while it furthers the agenda of the Hive Mind. The illusion of Free Will so to speak. 



hailene said:


> Could you cite this source? I'm not aware older makes better...sorta at odds with the whole gesalt consciousness.


There is no given source, all I have is the implication of varying ages due to the swarmlord being cited "as old as the tyranid race itself." 



hailene said:


> True, but isn't the Swarmlord always connected to the Hive Mind? The entire point of synapse creatures is their ability to link to the Hive Mind.


Though it is no longer reflected on the tabletop, the link to the Hive Mind can be blocked and even exploited as seen in Warriors of Ultramar. 



hailene said:


> We do. A couple of quotes:
> 
> "Indeed, the separate Hive Fleets appear to be self-sufficent, exhibiting different, characteristic strategies and developing unique creatures to overcome their prey. However, the truth is more complex than any could imagine, for each Hive Fleet is but a splinter of one greater assemblage, acting under the instruction of a single monstrous and unfathomable intelligence - the Hive Mind."


All of these Hive Fleets have thus far been located and move within a relatively small section of the galaxy. Hive Fleet Behemoth is crushed, Hive Fleet Kraken is broken and scattered towards the galactic core. Hive Fleet Leviathan covers a vast distance, however it is comprised of numerous smaller fleets between two main tendrils allowing for a greater front. 

The remnants of Hive Fleet Kraken have been described as moving seemingly at random, implying a _possibility_ of a strained or severed connection to the Greater Fleet. I admit there is no way of confirming this, but given the self aware nature of Hive Tyrants (and presumably the higher bioforms as well) this would not present a real hindrance either way. 



hailene said:


> After the defeat of Hive Fleet Gorgon, the remainders flee the Tau.
> 
> "These Hive Ships carried with them the full span of Gorgon's experiences in the battle with the Tau...the Tau erroneously believed that this knowledge could only be transfered if the Hive Ships survived to make contact with other Tyranids that even now advanced upon the Tau Empire."
> 
> And of course my earlier quote that said that all Tyranids are under the control of the Hive Mind. If everything is controlled by the Hive Mind, and the Hive Mind is made up of the consciousness of all of its individuals, then naturally everything ought to be shareable, right?


Given that astropaths are able to share knowledge over distances, this follows yes. 



hailene said:


> Source? We know that Hive Tyrants are psychic, but where does it say that each one has a unique soul?
> 
> And as I said, even if there is a unique soul known as the Swarmlord...why is its ability to think and fight linked to its soul? Tactics boils down to education and intelligence. Nothing to our knowledge links these facets to a soul.


It is an assumption based on their behaviour and the fact that one such individual is confirmed to exist. The word soul in this context is used to refer to a specific set of thought patterns and experiences linked to any given Hive Tyrant within a Hive Fleet. Some further quotes to consider: 

"Unlike many other tyranid creatures, Hive Tyrants are incredibly intelligent and completely self aware." 

This is meaningless if they are _completely_ under the Hive Mind's direction. 

"Whilst they are still slaved to the gestalt consciousness of the Hive Mind, they are permitted a far wider latitude in achieving their goals and can even learn from their mistakes." 

Implying that their goals and and thinking patterns still reflect the Hive Mind's will whilst being more independent and unpredictable. Like the daemon comparison I made earlier. 

"Should a Hive Tyrant be slain, the Hive Mind can simply grow a replacement, imbuing it with the same experiences, character and knowledge as its predecessor." 

Presumably more successful minds are given more urgent reincarnation than lesser ones. This is logic talking, not a given source. For why would the Hive Mind bother otherwise? 

"A new Tyrant joined the fray and, in an eyeblink, the whole character of the swarm changed. The ravening berzerker-spirit that had driven the tyranids onto the ridge was gone as if it had never existed. Left in its place something cannier and infinitely more worrisome. It was then I knew the battle to be lost." 

I just like that one.  



hailene said:


> Why not? Each mind and personality is nothing more than hardware (the brain and its makeup) and software (its experience).
> 
> If you made a perfect copy of me and put all my experience and memories into it, then it would act and perform like me. Things would only become different as our own bodies (say, if he got in an accident and lost an arm) and experiences started diverging.


I don't see what you're trying to say here. For all you know this is exactly the case, each Hive Tyrant could simply be a clone of the rest and the differences between them are a direct result of their various experiences. Like I said earlier, strength of character and experience could be exactly what the Hive Mind is trying to achieve, observing advantageous traits as well as weaknesses as it searches for ways to improve its greatest servants for the long term. 



hailene said:


> How so? What I am saying that even IF there is some sort of psychic signature you could make a new Hive Tyrant that is for all purposes no different than a Swarmlord. It may have a different soul, but it is equally capable on the battlefield.


Again, this may not be the point. 



hailene said:


> No, we have quotations with the understanding of the Imperium given and what the reality of the situation is (as real as a fictional universe can be).
> 
> The other stuff can be understood as being written from an omnipotent viewpoint.


True enough, that's my bad. >< 



hailene said:


> So long as there's a synapse creature nearby, the Hive Mind has control.
> 
> "The Hive Mind's influence is the strongest in the vicinity of [synapse creatures]...Under the command of such creatures the Tyranids operate in perfect unison, slaved to the psychic imperatives of a single communal intelligence."
> 
> It goes on to say this connection is with the Hive Mind as well.


Indirectly yes. The "single communal intelligence" could be a battlefield commander or an orbiting Hive Ship. 



hailene said:


> In the book I don't believe it's stated that the brain bugs or queens have personalities as we understand it.


I wouldn't know, I only saw the one good movie and one of the awful ones, but suppose they "don't exist." 



hailene said:


> Yeah, really stupid there, too.


Not necessarily. No cerebrate was ever shown to communicate with a human, however the mission briefings and in game messages could simply be a way for the player to interpret zerg communications. Naturally Kerrigan would be the exception, having both Zerg psionic links as well as the retained ability of human speech. 



hailene said:


> As a Star Trek fan, I know the community is very angry with this.
> 
> DITL.org has a few paragraphs on the matter.
> 
> ...


I refuse to touch on the necron issue here, it's been done to death nearly half a dozen times over now. In regards to the borg, I am only aware of them as a concept and have never watched any but the occasional episode or movie and I couldn't name which ones if I tried. :laugh: As far as I understand it they are similar to the replicators, which went on from being a faceless enemy to having a few key individuals develop sentience and become more "human" as it were. 



hailene said:


> I see it as a problem with either the writers or the audience. Or both. Someone or some people can't seem to wrap their mind around the idea of an emotionless, collective society. If we have to individualize them to make them sellable then why bother making them an emotionless, collective entity in the first place?
> 
> It cheapens the concept.


This is a matter of perspective. I think the replicators are in fact the best example of this idea. They began as a horde of mindless automata slaved to a single collective will that oversaw their actions. Following numerous defeats at the hands of humans and other similar beings, they sought to overcome their own weaknesses by mimicking those that had defeated them. 

The human form replicators were capable of more human thought, greater perception and had the ability to comprehend and exploit human emotion. The one among their number to actually think like a human was deemed a failure. 


When you think about it, each of the factions I mentioned may have gained some depth but they never really lost the core of what made them scary in the first place (bog maybe excepted.  ) 

The zerg were always driven to become the perfect life form. Every individual mind among them shared the same goal in the end, the named cerebrates and the Overmind itself. 

The replicators were always driven to increase their numbers. Having human form kin did not change that. 

The tyranids have always been driven by one goal, to feed and survive. Different minds within the swarm taking different approaches doesn't change that.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> The illusion of Free Will so to speak.


Agreed. As long as they're doing what the Hive Mind wants they're "free" to do it. As soon as they step out of line, the Hive Mind takes control. As you said, not really freedom at all.



Serpion5 said:


> the link to the Hive Mind can be blocked and even exploited as seen in Warriors of Ultramar.


I haven't read much past the first half of the first book. McNeil doesn't sit well with me.

Could you explain to me in detail what happened? I can grab a copy and leaf through it if you point me in the general direction, too.



Serpion5 said:


> All of these Hive Fleets have thus far been located and move within a relatively small section of the galaxy.


The quote specifies ALL Hive Fleets, not simply the ones to enter our galaxy.

This would, of course, include any Hive Fleets outside our own galaxy.



Serpion5 said:


> This is meaningless if they are completely under the Hive Mind's direction.


Don't forget that the Hive Mind is a gesalt consciousness. It's a collection of individual minds slaved together to make a single entity.

The whole is more than the sum of its parts, but the individual parts still must have value, too, right?

As to the self-aware...I chalk that up as "trying to make the Tyranids people, too!" effect.

But, again, this doesn't contradict being completely under control of the Hive Mind. Imagine being a prisoner within your own body. 



Serpion5 said:


> imbuing it with the same experiences, character and knowledge as its predecessor."


Here's the part that confuses me about the whole Swarmlord. If they can make a perfect copy of a previous Hive Tyrant, why not multiple copies of the Swarmlord?

Is there a unit-cap limit (RTS term ) for the Swarmlord?

Am I looking at the Hive Mind wrong? Rather than the internet where anyone can download any number of e-book copies, is the Hive Mind like a library? If I check out a book you can't have it until I'm done with it?

That would be sort of stupid, in my opinion.



Serpion5 said:


> I don't see what you're trying to say here. For all you know this is exactly the case, each Hive Tyrant could simply be a clone of the rest and the differences between them are a direct result of their various experiences.


You're close to my thesis on the subject. You have your finger nails in it; now you just need to grab on.

Why would individuals of a Hive Mind entity have different experiences? Couldn't they share all their knowledge with each other?

Imagine we're in school. We all have to take a test. Assuming that we're all at least proficient in the subject, what is the better choice...

1. Everyone take their own test 

2. Everyone pool their efforts together and share answers.

In almost every case it's better if we work together. Of course we'd share answers, so we'd all score the same on the test. If we got something wrong, we could go back over the material and figure out the solution better than we could as individuals, likely.

Now switch classroom with battle field and test with war. (Not literally, but you get my point).

Why do we have a whole bunch of Hive Tyrants taking their own tests as individuals?



Serpion5 said:


> The "single communal intelligence" could be a battlefield commander or an orbiting Hive Ship.


No. Both directly and indirectly.

It goes on to say, "However, should the synapse creature be slain, the link between individual creatures and _the Hive Mind_ is severed..."

Indirectly it says that all creatures--even "larger and more complicated beasts"--are subordinate to the will of the Hive Mind.

Everything is under the direction of the Hive Mind.



Serpion5 said:


> As far as I understand it they are similar to the replicators, which went on from being a faceless enemy to having a few key individuals develop sentience and become more "human" as it were.


They're actually very similar to the Tyranids. They assimilate individuals to become part of their gesalt consciousness. The gesalt consciousness uses the combined mental power to think or calculate anything. 

The Borg, like the Tyranids, care nothing for co-existence or cooperation with other entities. You either are absorbed into the race or destroyed. No middle ground.

Then the Borg queen came along and she's a typical baddie. Long speeches. Whimsical actions. The whole shebang. 

I can't comment on the other stories since I do not know enough of the story to pass judgement.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

hailene said:


> I haven't read much past the first half of the first book. McNeil doesn't sit well with me.
> 
> Could you explain to me in detail what happened? I can grab a copy and leaf through it if you point me in the general direction, too.


They introduced a virus to the Norn Queen in orbit which triggered hyper evolution, exploiting a key section in the tyranid's genetic makeup. The synapse link between what is essentially the mother of the Hive Fleet and its innumerable children caused massive psionic backlash and destroyed most of the swarm on the planet as well as the other Hive Ships in space around the planet. The few that survived were little more than animal, easily cleaned up in the aftermath. 



hailene said:


> You're close to my thesis on the subject. You have your finger nails in it; now you just need to grab on.
> 
> Why would individuals of a Hive Mind entity have different experiences? Couldn't they share all their knowledge with each other?
> 
> ...


If I may borrow your analogy, no matter how much information the students share, each of them is still left to their own interpretation of the facts and figures. 

So now, one Hive Tyrant may elect to try and outshoot the tau with its own long ranged combatants, whilst another may instead choose to try and infiltrate closer and take them down in cqc. All the information in the world is still only as good as the mind that interprets it, and we've already seen that the Hive Mind needs its various eyes all over the eastern front to be able to interpret what they see for themselves while it looks at the bigger picture. 



hailene said:


> Am I looking at the Hive Mind wrong? Rather than the internet where anyone can download any number of e-book copies, is the Hive Mind like a library? If I check out a book you can't have it until I'm done with it?
> 
> That would be sort of stupid, in my opinion.


More like a computer network controlling a series of AI units. 



hailene said:


> No. Both directly and indirectly.
> 
> It goes on to say, "However, should the synapse creature be slain, the link between individual creatures and the Hive Mind is severed..."
> 
> ...


Direction does not mean definitive micro management. 



hailene said:


> They're actually very similar to the Tyranids. They assimilate individuals to become part of their gesalt consciousness. The gesalt consciousness uses the combined mental power to think or calculate anything.


The replicators never assimilated individuals. They assimilate raw matter. 



hailene said:


> The Borg, like the Tyranids, care nothing for co-existence or cooperation with other entities. You either are absorbed into the race or destroyed. No middle ground.
> 
> Then the Borg queen came along and she's a typical baddie. Long speeches. Whimsical actions. The whole shebang.


I think we can both agree and be thankful that the tyranids have not even come close to being such a villain.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> If I may borrow your analogy, no matter how much information the students share, each of them is still left to their own interpretation of the facts and figures.


Let me attack it from another direction.

So there's a guy (or girl) in your class. He's the Curve Crusher. The "Huh, there's something below 100%?" guy. The professor reads this guy's papers to further his own understanding of his field. _That guy_.

Now you have a group test. Who do you ask? Him, of course.

That guy is the Swarmlord. Why wouldn't everyone "go" to him for the right answer?



Serpion5 said:


> More like a computer network controlling a series of AI units.


Why is some AI more limited than others?



Serpion5 said:


> Direction does not mean definitive micro management.


Pick a new word. The idea is that nothing happens with the O-K from the Hive Mind. Even, as you said, the freedom some of the Tyranids have is nothing more than an illusion. 

It's like a multiple choice test. You have to pick A-E. If you choose C then fine. If you choose anything other than C, I move your hand and circle C for you. Some freewill, right?



Serpion5 said:


> The replicators never assimilated individuals. They assimilate raw matter.


Was talking about the Borg.



Serpion5 said:


> I think we can both agree and be thankful that the tyranids have not even come close to being such a villai


They're inching their way there.

The Necrons strapped a rocket to their own backs.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

hailene said:


> Let me attack it from another direction.
> 
> So there's a guy (or girl) in your class. He's the Curve Crusher. The "Huh, there's something below 100%?" guy. The professor reads this guy's papers to further his own understanding of his field. That guy.
> 
> ...


Because: 

"Hive Tyrants cannot oversee every quarter of a battle and are as prone to being overwhelmed as any other commander." 

The swarmlord is the gifted kid sure, but he can't help everybody at once. 



hailene said:


> Why is some AI more limited than others?


It isn't. But differing circumstances over time for each unit causes them to develop differently. Learning remember? 



hailene said:


> Pick a new word. The idea is that nothing happens with the O-K from the Hive Mind. Even, as you said, the freedom some of the Tyranids have is nothing more than an illusion.
> 
> It's like a multiple choice test. You have to pick A-E. If you choose C then fine. If you choose anything other than C, I move your hand and circle C for you. Some freewill, right?


Tyranids are bioengineered for a purpose that furthers the goal of the Hive Mind. No matter what they do they enact the Hive Mind's will, whether it be by direct control or their own baser instincts to feed and survive. 



hailene said:


> Was talking about the Borg.


My bad. 



hailene said:


> They're inching their way there.
> 
> The Necrons strapped a rocket to their own backs.


Expansion and change. It happens. When I see a tyranid that is definitively a humanoid female come out of gw development I'll start to worry.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Because:
> 
> "Hive Tyrants cannot oversee every quarter of a battle and are as prone to being overwhelmed as any other commander."
> 
> The swarmlord is the gifted kid sure, but he can't help everybody at once.


Let me specify further.

The knowledge that the Swarmlord is what I meant everyone should access.

Unless the Swarmlord keeps all the answers to itself for one reason or another? All his knowledge should be possessed by the Hive Mind, right?

Can't he just pass around his answer key?



Serpion5 said:


> It isn't. But differing circumstances over time for each unit causes them to develop differently. Learning remember?


I thought about this. You know, try every possible avenue. Rather than sitting down and thinking about the best strategy, you try every possible permutation to figure it out.

Still, it seems odd that when the Hive Mind gets frustrated it pops out a Swarmlord. Clearly it must understand that when the chips are down, it's time to take out the Swarmlord. Therefore it must understand that the Swarmlord is better than other Hive Tyrants.



Serpion5 said:


> Expansion and change


I felt we already had enough whimsical, playing for their own corner, super advanced tech, overlords with the Eldar.

One poster on the forum brought up that the Necron were just mechanized Tyranids (in terms of species personality). As in, soulless killers. I can sorta agree with that.

I still feel the direction they took with the Necrons was...sad. And I don't even particularly care for the Necrons. Still makes me sad.

P.S. Off to bed. I'll be back around 11 PM PST.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

hailene said:


> Let me specify further.
> 
> The knowledge that the Swarmlord is what I meant everyone should access.
> 
> ...


All knowledge is shared. But knowledge does not equal intelligence. For whatever reason, the Swarmlord is simply more attuned to out thinking the enemy than most typical Hive Tyrants. I can only attribute this to their individual minds being warp based or existing within the Hive Mind rather than being a result of bio engineering. 



hailene said:


> I thought about this. You know, try every possible avenue. Rather than sitting down and thinking about the best strategy, you try every possible permutation to figure it out.
> 
> Still, it seems odd that when the Hive Mind gets frustrated it pops out a Swarmlord. Clearly it must understand that when the chips are down, it's time to take out the Swarmlord. Therefore it must understand that the Swarmlord is better than other Hive Tyrants.


The appearance of the Swarmlord is a stress induced reaction by the Hive Fleets, not the Hive Mind. Meaning it is likely called upon by the presiding Hive Tyrant once that tyrant realizes it is outclassed tactically. 



hailene said:


> I felt we already had enough whimsical, playing for their own corner, super advanced tech, overlords with the Eldar.
> 
> One poster on the forum brought up that the Necron were just mechanized Tyranids (in terms of species personality). As in, soulless killers. I can sorta agree with that.
> 
> I still feel the direction they took with the Necrons was...sad. And I don't even particularly care for the Necrons. Still makes me sad.


Is your problem with the necrons themselves or what they did with the c'tan? Because the c'tan argument I can understand even though I don't agree. In regards to the necrons themselves however, the fluff perfectly allows for the old kind of necrons to be perfectly viable.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> For whatever reason, the Swarmlord is simply more attuned to out thinking the enemy than most typical Hive Tyrants. I can only attribute this to their individual minds being warp based or existing within the Hive Mind rather than being a result of bio engineering.


Then breed more capable Hive Tyrants. They can make one Swarmlord, they can make more.

Aren't they trying to evolve to a better form? Well, they already have developed a more capable commander, the Swarmlord! Make more of him.

At this point I think we can both agree that either 1. This is an oversight on GW's part or 2. There's something else that prevents the Tyranids from creating more Swarmlord-like Hive Tyrants (as we both have said).



Serpion5 said:


> The appearance of the Swarmlord is a stress induced reaction by the Hive Fleets


Which are all, as their codex states, under the direct control of the Hive Mind. 



Serpion5 said:


> s your problem with the necrons themselves or what they did with the c'tan?


My current problem is what the Necrons are, not what they did. More specifically, the Necron lords.

They're too human now. Too much like us. Too...relatable? now.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

hailene said:


> Then breed more capable Hive Tyrants. They can make one Swarmlord, they can make more.
> 
> Aren't they trying to evolve to a better form? Well, they already have developed a more capable commander, the Swarmlord! Make more of him.
> 
> At this point I think we can both agree that either 1. This is an oversight on GW's part or 2. There's something else that prevents the Tyranids from creating more Swarmlord-like Hive Tyrants (as we both have said).


No I think given the trail of hundreds of dead worlds in the trail of the known hive fleets we can assume the Hive Tyrants are plenty capable. I'm convinced that your option 2 is the far more likely one. For all we know the Swarmlord developing within the Hive collective was a fluke, one that the Hive Mind has thus far been unable to duplicate. 

I could throw up half a dozen theories but in the end all I can foresee is you shooting them down. I don't have a problem with how the tyranids are written, you do. Divisions like this are all over the hobby, I generally try not to read too much into them. I've said my piece. 



hailene said:


> Which are all, as their codex states, under the direct control of the Hive Mind.


I'm not convinced of this point but whatever you want to to think is fine. 



hailene said:


> My current problem is what the Necrons are, not what they did. More specifically, the Necron lords.
> 
> They're too human now. Too much like us. Too...relatable? now.


Insane, oblivious, and convinced of their own immortality? Touche I guess. :laugh:


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> No I think given the trail of hundreds of dead worlds in the trail of the known hive fleets we can assume the Hive Tyrants are plenty capable.


All of them are capable. But look at the write up the Swarmlord gets. When things get tough, the Swarmlord is the Tyranid's answer. If the Swarmlord wasn't somehow superior to other Hive Tyrants, why does he get all the dirty jobs?

Can we agree that he's, to our knowledge, the best Hive Tyrant the Tyranids can field? Fluffwise?



Serpion5 said:


> I'm not convinced of this point but whatever you want to to think is fine.


Straight from the codex (I think I quoted this earlier, but maybe not):

"However, the truth is more complex than any could imagine, for each Hive Fleet is but a splinter of one greater, assemblage, acting under the instructions of a single monstrous and unfathomable intelligence - the Hive Mind"

Seems rather cut and dry.

I mean you COULD make the argument that this "greater, assemblage" isn't the Hive Mind but rather something else (say some node on a Hive ship), but the text then goes to say whatever this greater assemblage could be would be under the Hive Mind. Which effectively means each Hive Fleet is under the Hive Mind, no matter how you dice it.

Or you could read it straight and read the Hive Mind is the greater assemblage. Either way...


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

hailene said:


> All of them are capable. But look at the write up the Swarmlord gets. When things get tough, the Swarmlord is the Tyranid's answer. If the Swarmlord wasn't somehow superior to other Hive Tyrants, why does he get all the dirty jobs?
> 
> Can we agree that he's, to our knowledge, the best Hive Tyrant the Tyranids can field? Fluffwise?


I think what Serp was referring to, was the fact that the Hive Fleets don't _need_ the Swarmlord for the most part, as they smash through most resistance fairly easily - as seen by the last three major Hive Fleets. And apparently that's just the tip of the iceberg.

It's all about maximum efficiency in terms of energy out : energy in. It is far less efficient to produce all Hive Tyrants in the like of the Swarmlord, as such production is not required for the consumption of 99.9% of worlds. Thus using extra biomass unnecessarily is unsustainable and could ultimately end up in the Hive Fleet producing more than it can consume - just consider how many Hive Tyrants are produced for a single planetfall. 

Also, something to consider might be the autonomy that the Swarmlord has. If it does have this basic level of autonomy, then there's always the potential that it could disobey a command from the Hive Fleet. This possibility increases with a greater number of Swarmlords. Furthermore, there's even the possibility of tribe-like rivalry between the various Swarmlords that could lead to the break down of the entire ground forces, in the most extreme cases, becoming animalistic and reverting to territorial behaviours. This is probably going a bit too far as I don't quite think the Swarmlords have that much autonomy or control over the lesser species, but it might be something to consider in terms of the potential break from the 'chain of command'.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> It's all about maximum efficiency in terms of energy out : energy in. It is far less efficient to produce all Hive Tyrants in the like of the Swarmlord, as such production is not required for the consumption of 99.9% of worlds. Thus using extra biomass unnecessarily is unsustainable and could ultimately end up in the Hive Fleet producing more than it can consume - just consider how many Hive Tyrants are produced for a single planetfall.


I thought about that, but think about how much more efficient a Tyranid army is with a Swarmlord at the helm?

How much more "expensive" is a Swarmlord over a regular Hive Tyrant? Worth 5 Tyranid warriors? 10? 20? 25? 100?

Even if it's 100, I think they'd still come out ahead. A 1000. 10,000.



spanner94ezekiel said:


> Also, something to consider might be the autonomy that the Swarmlord has. If it does have this basic level of autonomy, then there's always the potential that it could disobey a command from the Hive Fleet.


Possible, but even the Swarmlord only has a "glimmer of autonomy".

Which itself makes no sense. Rational thought and imagination don't need autonomy to fuction. It's strange that the Tyranids would bother with it.



spanner94ezekiel said:


> This is probably going a bit too far as I don't quite think the Swarmlords have that much autonomy or control over the lesser species, but it might be something to consider in terms of the potential break from the 'chain of command'.


Even the Swarmlord is ultimately under the complete control of the Hive Mind. It has no more control than a gear in a watch.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I interpret the "Glimmer of autonomy" part to mean that the Swarmlord is capable of thinking outside the typical tyranid thought patterns. The idea perhaps being that by thinking more in line with how its prey does, it is better able to counter and outwit his foes. 

Consider the fluff in the codex under "The Swarmlord strikes" in the Battle for Maccrage fluff. The Swarmlord was able to exploit Calgar's willingness to accept a challenge, luring the Chapter Master and his accompanying squads into an ambush.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

did britain nuke iran (etc.) when they went to war? no
its kind of like that, a lot of force that isnt really needed, costs a lot and could go wrong


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> I interpret the "Glimmer of autonomy" part to mean that the Swarmlord is capable of thinking outside the typical tyranid thought patterns. The idea perhaps being that by thinking more in line with how its prey does, it is better able to counter and outwit his foes.


Which is great since the Tyranids are a gesalt consciousness. Everything it can think or do any other Tyranid _should_ have access to. And while I, an average Hive Tyrant, may not be able to think of the best tactical option, I can surely recognize a good one when I see one. Particularly when I know exactly how and why someone came to this conclusion, which I do since we're part of a gesalt consciousness.



khrone forever said:


> did britain nuke iran (etc.) when they went to war? no


So many holes in this. First, nuclear theory hadn't really been (to my knowledge) discovered yet. Therefore the Brits had no nukes to hit Iran with even if they did.

Even if they did, it's very dangerous to start shooting off nukes when other countries have them. It's, given the current political climate, very unpopular to use nuclear weapons on anyone. Heck, we're still getting crap for dropping nuclear weapons on the Japanese (an Empire that committed atrocities, both in terms of deaths and sheer heinousness of their acts, to put the Nazis to shame) 70 years later.

And, no, I'm not a Japanese hater. Ironically, I'm a full blooded Chinese (which we're still pissed at the Japanese for pussy-footing around the fact that they murdered 20 million of us in terrible, horrible ways), but I speak Japanese and an utterly in love with their anime/manga/light novel culture. 

But back on topic, using nuclear weapons would lead to planet-wide condemnation. A nation would rapidly find itself without allies and with many more enemies.

Then there's the environmental issue.

The humanitarian issue.

And probably much junk I'm not even aware of.

But back to the Swarmlord.

The Tyranids don't care about what other races think. So they're free to use whatever weapon they want however they want.



khrone forever said:


> costs a lot


How many Tyranids make up a single Hive Fleet? Billions? Trillions?

Even a single tendril probably is made up of 10s of millions of Tyranids. How much more efficient would taking over a planet be when a Swarmlord is commanding than a normal Hive Tyrant? Think of the biomass you save when your main strategy isn't "send a hundred thousand gaunts at their wall to make them run out of ammo".


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## nate187 (Feb 2, 2009)

All I wanted to know was if any one had the skills to take the swarm lord on one on one not a debate about how he is utalised by the hive mind. Cheers


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

nate187 said:


> All I wanted to know was if any one had the skills to take the swarm lord on one on one not a debate about how he is utalised by the hive mind. Cheers


A few, but not many. That's about it. k:


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## nate187 (Feb 2, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> A few, but not many. That's about it. k:


Thanks serpion:threaten: lol


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

nate187 said:


> Thanks serpion:threaten: lol


You want a list of who I think could or couldn't? :laugh:


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## stephen.w.langdon (Jan 1, 2012)

To the Original Poster, a few in the Fluff but my Fav would be Maugan Ra based on some of the stories written about him, including holding back and defeating countless Nids

As to the Debate that has sprung up around the Swarm Lord (I know I am entering late lol) and how it works in relation to the rest of the Nid’s this is how I see it working,

I think of it as a Computer Network just a biological one, now to expand on this you need to think what roles each of the creatures would have and how they would work/ interact with one another, my thoughts on the are as follows

The Swarm Lord is like a Data Centre, this house all the knowledge within, but is connected with other Data Centres (other Swarm Lords/ Hive Fleets across the network) but is unique to this section of the Hive Mind.
Now the reason it is unique is because it would be like having 2 Data Centres trying to house the same space at the same time that just isn’t possible, but if it goes down then a new one can be built to replace it, but at a high cost.

Next would be the Hive Tyrants, they are like the servers within the Data Centre, they hold specific information relevant to the duties that they need to perform, but are not given anything else otherwise if would cause a conflict within the whole Network, (it would be like having a server trying to do the job of the whole data centre, it would just overload) but like servers they can be updated as new situations arrive to deal with new orders given.

The other tyranid synapse creatures are like the boards within the Server, each one given a specific task to carry out, remove (kill) one and the server still works, it just needs replacing

The remaining creatures are the Computers and Devises that feed off from the Server itself, each one needing the knowledge that is provided by the Server/ server board it is accessing so if it loses connection it is a standalone device that reverts back to factory basics.

Anyway that is just my thought on the matter, and how I see it working


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## nate187 (Feb 2, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> You want a list of who I think could or couldn't? :laugh:


Could mate


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

nate187 said:


> Could mate


Could? I give maybes to Angron, Doombreed and the likes of Skarbrand or other powerful bloodthirsters and daemons. 

At a stretch, maybe one or two of the phoenix lords. 

I can't really think of anyone mortal though. Given that Calgar was near killed and only escaped by one of his Captains distracting the creature and laying down hs own life, the bar is set kind of high. Maybe some of the very top combatants like Kharn. 

A c'tan shard might give it a decent run for its money as well. That's about all I'll give.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

stephen.w.langdon said:


> The Swarm Lord is like a Data Centre, this house all the knowledge within, but is connected with other Data Centres (other Swarm Lords/ Hive Fleets across the network) but is unique to this section of the Hive Mind.


Okay, forgive me. I don't really know how the internet works. But I'll try. If I screw up, explain it to me simply. With pictures and sources.

Now here's my question, isn't the Hive Mind the data center? Doesn't it receive all the knowledge of its constituent parts? Including the Swarmlord and the other millions of Hive Tyrants?

Basically, why would the data center feed the best data to only one server?


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## stephen.w.langdon (Jan 1, 2012)

Sorry at work at the moment, so limited by what I can access for Pic's etc lol

A data Centre is the location where the Servers are kept and linked to one another, so think of it like this you have a large company say Apple.

Apple represents the Tyranids, it uses the Internet (The Hive Mind) to communicate with its different locations across the business (The Hive Fleets)

Now imagine each location has a Data Centre within the Building (Swarm Lord) that connects all the Servers together (Hive Tyrant, and Synapse Creatures) that feed the info to the computers so workers can do the day to day business (what the base Tyranids do)

Now if you lose a computer No big deal (in this case loss of Normal Troops)

If you lose a board within a Server several computers would go do (So Tyranid Warriors lost, the nearby Troops would also be affected)

If you lost a Server (it would affect the Tyranid Warriors and the troops as they would not have access to the full info being fed through and would revert to their base instincts)

Now losing the Data Centre would result in a complete crash of everything below unless you have backups, in this case each Server would work individually but would not have access to the whole Network on information (each of the creatures would revert back to their natural instincts, so they would not have access to the full strategy of the Swarm lord, but rather their individual area)

remember it is not a perfect analogy as the Tyranids have lots of Backups to prevent them from totally shutting down if they lose a higher up, but if you think of it as information flow instead and how they plan the assaults/ attacks it makes more sense

Hope that made sense, well it did in my head anyway lmao


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## nate187 (Feb 2, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Could? I give maybes to Angron, Doombreed and the likes of Skarbrand or other powerful bloodthirsters and daemons.
> 
> At a stretch, maybe one or two of the phoenix lords.
> 
> ...


SWARM LORD = BEAST lol


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

stephen.w.langdon said:


> Now imagine each location has a Data Centre within the Building (Swarm Lord)


So let me get this straight. The Swarmlord is a particular collection of knowledge that no other Tyranids could replicate by itself?

Why not make a million data centers with copied and pasted information? Cost, I don't think, would be a serious issue. One Swarmlord couldn't be ALL that much more expensive than any other Hive Tyrant (say, 100 times more difficult to create, probably less than 5, really). The net savings would be worth it, I think.

Or maybe my assumption is wrong. Maybe the Swarmlord is 100,000 times more expensive to make. That's why only the largest of Hive Fleets would see its creation. Otherwise it wouldn't be worth creating it. Better to let the Hive Fleet die out than waste that many resources on a single commander. I guess that would make as much sense as anything else, right?


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Deadeye, love how half your list is Chaos Panzi's 

Totally would go with the Emperor, who else. I mean they don't tell you who he fought on his Great Crusade, but they site that he fought all manner of xeno's and Demons. Perhaps he fought an Hive Fleet that had yet to be labeled as Nids at the time.

Still, I'd vouch for Imbraham Guant to kill one.....Boyeah


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## cBselfmonkey (May 5, 2013)

hailene said:


> Why not make a million data centers with copied and pasted information? Cost, I don't think, would be a serious issue. One Swarmlord couldn't be ALL that much more expensive than any other Hive Tyrant (say, 100 times more difficult to create, probably less than 5, really). The net savings would be worth it, I think.
> 
> Or maybe my assumption is wrong. Maybe the Swarmlord is 100,000 times more expensive to make. That's why only the largest of Hive Fleets would see its creation. Otherwise it wouldn't be worth creating it. Better to let the Hive Fleet die out than waste that many resources on a single commander. I guess that would make as much sense as anything else, right?


I'd thinking the answer has more to do with the idea that the Swarmlord is the Hive Fleets 'stress based' response then anything else. I mean when you're stressed or upset do you consciously think about starting to sweat or grinding your teeth together? Is that nervous twitch to scratch the back of your neck something you do with complete knowledge or something that you only really think "why did that happen?" after the fact?

I suspect the Hive Mind doesn't make an infinite amount of Swarmlords is because its 'conscious' mind isn't actually making them. At no point does the Hive Mind think "I'll make a Swarmlord! That'll deal with the pesky food!" it just gets 'upset' that meal time isn't going its way for long enough and eventually a Swarmlord just...pops out. As much a surprise to the Hive Fleet as anyone else.


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