# How do daemons see?



## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

I'm not exactly sure how daemons see. I'm thinking they don't see using their eyes where light strikes the retina and then a signal passes from the optic nerve to the brain. I'm thinking daemons don't have nerves or brains as such. I think they see using their connection to the warp to see where their enemy's souls are and attack that location. Can someone with more knowledge in Liber Daemonica advise on this?

If my thoughts about this are true, can daemons actually see Pariahs at all? Could a pariah simply walk past daemons due to being invisible? 
EDIT - I've just read on Lexicanum that Pariah's are invisible to daemons but I'm always wary about info that states "Needs Citation"

Finally, I'm surprised that that Grey Knights don't use Pariahs. After all I'm sure they would have access to the same pool of recruits as the Culexus Temple, and Inquisitors are able to find them. Imagine how powerful a Pariah Grey Knight would be in fighting daemons.

EDIT - IF (a big if) Pariahs are invisible to Daemons it makes the idea of a Pariah Grey Knight an even better prospect.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Daemons are given form by nightmares. We see them in a humanoid form, as thats how a human mind is trying to bring order and reason to the chaotic. But sometimes its too much, the horror of chaos spawn for one.

But yes, they navigate by seeing soulfires.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

zerachiel76 said:


> I'm not exactly sure how daemons see.


Yeah, they see the souls of mortals. As for the Pariahs, I think there was a novel, can't remember which one, where demons could see a particularly strong one because of the hole he seemed to leave around him. Kinda like something passing in front of a really bright light. You can't see the object, just that it's blocking the light behind it. They were still repelled by it though.

As for GKs using them, they are anathema to what the GKs are. They wouldn't be able to share the same air as them. On top of that, psykers are much more common than Pariahs, so any Pariahs that are discovered will be earmarked for more specialised roles within the Inquisition or Assassins.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

In the new Talon of Horus book,

the main character has a changeling daemon companion which prefers the guise of a wolf and he can see through her eyes.
 As Brother Lucian says, they do see soulfires but they can sort of see normally just that everything is dark. Hopefully somebody could explain it better than me.

I think Pariahs have been retconned. From what I recall, they were mainly a necron thing and when they got their (new) codex they never mentioned Pariahs.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

There's a passage in the 5th edition Daemons codex that's told from the perspective of a Herald of Khorne, and he can distinguish that the Space Marines he's fighting are armoured in red.

If they just saw souls, they'd be running into trees and things all the time, so there's definitely some kind of obstacle detection in there somewhere.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Tyrannus said:


> In the new Talon of Horus book-


Need to spoiler your post bud.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

MidnightSun said:


> If they just saw souls, they'd be running into trees and things all the time, so there's definitely some kind of obstacle detection in there somewhere.


Of course they see more than just the soul, but everything else is just variations of shadow. I think it was in _Wrath of Iron_ that it describes what the Slaaneshi demons saw when fighting the Iron Hands during the battle under the hive they were trying to assault, and that was pretty much it.

Interesting to note in that that the normal humans souls burned brighter than the IHs, something that the IH librarian ruminates on when he sees it for himself. His chapter brothers are loosing their souls to all the augmetic enhancements they give themselves.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Need to spoiler your post bud.


Apologies, I didn't feel it was a spoiler but I rectified the post nontheless.

EDIT: I don't want to derail the thread or anything, but can anyone confirm that Pariahs do exist still?


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Tyrannus said:


> can anyone confirm that Pariahs do exist still?


There are Culexus assassins in the new data slate, so yep, they do.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Yeah, they see the souls of mortals. As for the Pariahs, I think there was a novel, can't remember which one, where demons could see a particularly strong one because of the hole he seemed to leave around him. Kinda like something passing in front of a really bright light. You can't see the object, just that it's blocking the light behind it. They were still repelled by it though.
> 
> As for GKs using them, they are anathema to what the GKs are. They wouldn't be able to share the same air as them. On top of that, psykers are much more common than Pariahs, so any Pariahs that are discovered will be earmarked for more specialised roles within the Inquisition or Assassins.


According to the emperor's gift the grey knights do have pariah/blanks.

They're rare but they are there.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> According to the emperor's gift the grey knights do have pariah/blanks.
> 
> They're rare but they are there.


Oh cool, thanks for the info. Thanks to everyone else too


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> There are Culexus assassins in the new data slate, so yep, they do.


Ahh thanks  I thought it would've been a shame if they got rid of that bit of fluff.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> According to the emperor's gift the grey knights do have pariah/blanks.
> 
> They're rare but they are there.


That makes no sense...that's like putting a rapist with a nun fetish in a nunnery.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I think the way daemons see is just as varied as the daemons themselves. I'm sure some see humans as we do, some as flames of psychic heat, others as, I dunno, giant meatballs with cheese on them. And everything in between.



Reaper45 said:


> According to the emperor's gift the grey knights do have pariah/blanks.
> 
> They're rare but they are there.


Er, uh, what? Citation, please?

I have a digital copy, and I looked for "blank" (which didn't even touch on the psychic blanks, mostly the word blanket) and pariah (which didn't even appear in the entire novel!) and found no reference to pariah Grey Knights.

So citation, please?


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

I think Reaper is referring to the guy who Hyperion gives the casket of his fallen brother to. I can't remember what he's called, but it's just after the squad gets back to Titan. I think Hyperion makes a comment like "What are you?" And other such things that would imply that the guy is a blank.

That's just my guess though


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Ah, the ferryman. 

He's an enigma. He's clearly an astartes...but whether he's a Grey Knight or not is left unclear and open to interpretation. 

He does say he is "of Titan", so there's weight to suggest he is a Grey Knight. 

On the other hand, Hyperion says that the ferryman is a slave. So I dunno...


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

hailene said:


> Ah, the ferryman.
> 
> He's an enigma. He's clearly an astartes...but whether he's a Grey Knight or not is left unclear and open to interpretation.
> 
> ...


He has to be a blank, in all honestly what else would he be?



locustgate said:


> That makes no sense...that's like putting a rapist with a nun fetish in a nunnery.


Why? Blanks are athame to daemons. They also are the only humans who are essentially incorruptible by the warp.

Wouldn't it make sense for the Grey knights to use them to look after their honored dead? after all there's a chance a daemon could possess a dead body and bring it back.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> He has to be a blank, in all honestly what else would he be?


The question isn't whether he's a blank or not--that's amply clear. The question is whether or not he's a Grey Knight or not.



Reaper45 said:


> Why? Blanks are athame to daemons.


They also have this distasteful aura that makes everyone hate them, psykers more so than others (which include the rest of the Chapter). Still, we see in the _Ravenor_ series that there things called limiters that nullify a blank's blankness. I could see them being useful.

On the other hand, the rareness of a blank is astronomical. One in a billion, I believe? If their attrition rate for them is anything like the psyker attrition rate (one in a million psykers succeeded in become a Grey Knight), it'd be a waste of resources.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> Why? Blanks are athame to daemons. They also are the only humans who are essentially incorruptible by the warp.
> 
> Wouldn't it make sense for the Grey knights to use them to look after their honored dead? after all there's a chance a daemon could possess a dead body and bring it back.


As hailen said they exude an aura of disgust, a blank could look like the hottest woman in existence that makes even SMs think about knocking boots the aura will make ANYONE, except MAYBE another blank, that gets close enough despise her. In the first Eisenhorn (sp?) book when he met Bequin he could barely keep himself from shooting her when he was questioning her and the astropath like wise was horrified by her presence, referring to her as IT. She also mentioned that she had been chased away from 3 planets because she always seemed to upset someone powerful even if she never misbehaved. It's this revulsion that I don't think he could of been a blank unless MAYBE he had a nulifier.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Blanks still exist. Their affiliation with the necrons is all that was retconned. The Imperium, mostly the inquisition, still uses them. 


As for how daemons see, I always assumed that by entering the materium, they become subject to material laws. Meaning they would have forms similar to mortal forms, if a good deal more resilient and composed of warp stuff rather than flesh. 

I've always assumed their eyes work basically like normal. Only they can see souls burning brighter among everything else, whereas pariahs would block those lights out and just appear empty.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

locustgate said:


> As hailen said they exude an aura of disgust, a blank could look like the hottest woman in existence that makes even SMs think about knocking boots the aura will make ANYONE, except MAYBE another blank, that gets close enough despise her. In the first Eisenhorn (sp?) book when he met Bequin he could barely keep himself from shooting her when he was questioning her and the astropath like wise was horrified by her presence, referring to her as IT. She also mentioned that she had been chased away from 3 planets because she always seemed to upset someone powerful even if she never misbehaved. It's this revulsion that I don't think he could of been a blank unless MAYBE he had a nulifier.


There's allot about blanks that we don't understand. Perhaps when they try and act normal is when they repel people.

Ciaphas Cain trusts Jurgen completely and seem not too upset about his presence, Jurgen also seemed to survive in the guard without getting shot before he met cain.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> There's allot about blanks that we don't understand. Perhaps when they try and act normal is when they repel people.
> 
> Ciaphas Cain trusts Jurgen completely and seem not too upset about his presence, Jurgen also seemed to survive in the guard without getting shot before he met cain.


And Eisenhorn fell in love with her but he stated that anytime he touched her it hurt, do to being a psyker (though the first part has been ages since I've read Eisenhorn.. Also Ravenor kept her body in stasis after she was (killed/mortally wounded). It may be a effect that one can become accustomed to and just because of the effect doesn't mean people will always despise them, though their fuse may be shorter around a blank.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

There are degrees of Pariah, just as there are with psykers. The strongest generally end up as Culexus assassins, while the likes of Jurgen and Bequin seem to be on the lower end of that scale. Jurgen's effect seems to come across as a smell (aided I'm sure by an actual smell) that makes it unpleasant to share a small room with him, and Bequin doesn't seem to upset the non-psykers in Eisenhorn's warband too much. People might not be very comfortable around them, but nobody is being driven to an unreasoning urge to kill them. 

I'm sure there are many variations in between either end of the scale.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Yeah as many have said its a bit of both. I would agree that when they enter the material realm they do see the materialistic details that you and I are accustomed to. However, though we are attracted to familiarities in traits, emotions, reactions, of the body, I think daemons pay attention to our soul fire. I think its probably a more simplistic way at looking at a person as well. Souls are also energy to them, as said in The Talon of Horus, the Warp is essentially made up of souls.


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## revilo44 (Sep 17, 2010)

I don't have anything to add.sorry, so I'm just say something funny, daemons see with they eyes


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