# The Missing Primarchs. Can they be introduced after all this time?



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

We all know GW's endgame plan was to never reveal who they are, etc. to boost sales and all that.

But let's pretend they give the go ahead at some point in time.

Would it be too late? 

Would it even be possible?

What role do you think they and their legions could fill that the others haven't covered (IE. siege warfare, subterfuge, guerrilla warfare, etc.)?

Where could they fit in the lore? Could they even be incorporated into the overall story and most importantly the Horus Heresy in a timely fashion (some if not all of the Primarch/HH lore was made around the 80's and has been steadily updated all this time)?

Would their sudden emergence in Warhammer40K's story cause massive retcons/higher chances of messing up established lore? 

Would it diminish some aspects of the established Primarchs for whatever reason? Especially if they shared traits? We've all seen how this issue could arise with all the 'is Lorgar a stronger psyker than Magnus now?' threads and posts after ADB's books came out. 

What do you all think?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I have a storyline I've kept in the back burner for so long now, that deals with that exact question. It uses one of the timeline notes from the main rulebook - wherein it's revealed that all communications from Segmentum Pacificus suddenly cease. This is right before Abaddon's Thirteenth Black Crusade begins.

My story focuses on one of the Missing Primarchs returning right before Abaddon launches his attack. He is as committed to defeating Chaos as he is disgusted by what the Imperium turned into after the Heresy, and in essence has been waiting for the perfect storm to happen, so as to roll in and seize power. Pacificus going silent is part and parcel of his blitzkrieg coup, facilitated by his returned Legion - of which large elements were already operating incognito, masquerading as Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes.


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

The answer is "No".


In fact, the Horus Heresy novel series essentially shut the door on it completely. Originally, the "missing" primarchs were just that, "missing". 

But they aren't missing anymore. They have a definable fate. The primarchs talk about it, they talk about their missing brothers, and so they definitely existed at some point, and then didn't. We just don't know what it is. There's no room to fit them in anymore, unless they do "prequels" to the Heresy. The missing legions existed, and then they didn't exist anymore. Despite all the ambiguity in the novels about what actually did happen, _something_ did happen, and those two legions, and their primarchs, are permanently gone.


So, like GW, there's a "never say never" caveat. But yeah, never.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Veteran Sergeant said:


> The answer is "No".
> 
> 
> In fact, the Horus Heresy novel series essentially shut the door on it completely. Originally, the "missing" primarchs were just that, "missing".
> ...


All that is known is the Russ and the pups were sent to wipe at least one out, one of the legions were savage enough to send them running, and that what happened is forbidden to be spoken of.

There's nothing saying that the primarchs were killed. So as long as the primarch exists the legion can return.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> All that is known is the Russ and the pups were sent to wipe at least one out, one of the legions were savage enough to send them running, and that what happened is forbidden to be spoken of.
> 
> There's nothing saying that the primarchs were killed. So as long as the primarch exists the legion can return.


I believe the incident with Russ and his wolves being called against another legion was the Night of the Wolves (or something to that effect); when they were called against the World Eaters.

It is speculated (as most everyone knows) that the Ultramarines were involved in one or both instances since around the time of their "separate tragedies", the Ultramarines gained a significant amount of numbers to their legion. Speculation, aye, but a clue none the less.

The missing primarchs may not be confirmed dead, but there is several references and hints suggesting they are. Or at least one of them since I seem to recall them being referred to separately as The Lost and The Damned (though someone correct me if I'm wrong).


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

Reaper45 said:


> All that is known is the Russ and the pups were sent to wipe at least one out, one of the legions were savage enough to send them running, and that what happened is forbidden to be spoken of.


That's two for one on quoting me today and being horribly, horribly wrong. :laugh:

Well, don't worry, there's always a next time. You'll get 'em one day.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Veteran Sergeant said:


> That's two for one on quoting me today and being horribly, horribly wrong. :laugh:
> 
> Well, don't worry, there's always a next time. You'll get 'em one day.


Since you're the only person who doesn't understand you're the one whose the idiot.

That being said I'll dumb it down for you.

actually no, do your own damn research.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

There is no definitive statement (that I know of) regarding the status of the two Missing Primarchs and their Legions. Their statues in the Imperial Palace are covered. Their respective fates are referred to as "their separate tragedies", and the circumstances that led to them are not discussed.

This forum could probably benefit from a stickied thread that contains the various quotes about the Missing Primarchs from each of the Heresy novels. That way, readers might not be so quick to seize on to hypotheses and opinions that arise from word of mouth as opposed to what (admittedly, little) canon has been said on the subject. 

Incidentally, doesn't the Lost and the Damned refer to something completely different? That is, an Army List comprised of heretics, mutants, etc.?


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Well I'll be watching this little debate with interest. Take that how you want it.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> Since you're the only person who doesn't understand you're the one whose the idiot.
> 
> That being said I'll dumb it down for you.
> 
> actually no, do your own damn research.


Already addressed this. Night of the Wolves (or something to that effect) involving the Space Wolves and the World Eaters. Russ was beaten in a brawl but Angron during that brawl got himself surrounded by the Wolves while the World Eaters were butchering any of the Wolves in sight. Basically, yeah the World Eaters sent the Wolves scurrying because of the nails effects on the World Eaters. Angron himself would have slain untold numbers of the Space Wolves and perhaps Russ himself had Russ not chosen to break off the engagement. The World Eaters still hounded the hounds while they were retreating as well.



Phoebus said:


> Incidentally, doesn't the Lost and the Damned refer to something completely different? That is, an Army List comprised of heretics, mutants, etc.?


It does. But I swear I read that the Missing Primarchs were called The Lost and The Damned in one of the Horus Heresy shorts. Course I'm likely wrong, so if someone could confirm or deny this, I would appreciate it very much.


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

I think at the very least it's a good story for GW to have up their sleeves for a later date. I can't help but feel there'll be something big missing when the HH series finishes, and something should fill that void. I find 30k fluff a hell of a lot more interesting than 40k. After reading a lot of Horus Heresy then reading 40k books it feels like a spin off of a great TV show that ended, and with none of the main characters 

What I want and what will actually happen have no correlation though. I don't think they'll do anything with the missing primarchs 



DeathJester921 said:


> It does. But I swear I read that the Missing Primarchs were called The Lost and The Damned in one of the Horus Heresy shorts. Course I'm likely wrong, so if someone could confirm or deny this, I would appreciate it very much.


I'm pretty sure I read that too. Those exact words


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Its safe to say, I think, that the Space Wolves were somehow involved in the fates of the Lost Legions. Enough hints and statements have been dropped to that effect across numerous novels now, even from the mouth of Russ himself.

We even have specific dates for these "two separate tragedies": 965.M30 and 969.M30. About 40 years before the bombardment of Isstvan III (I'm not sure if these dates align perfectly with events in _The First Heretic_ though).



DeathJester921 said:


> It does. But I swear I read that the Missing Primarchs were called The Lost and The Damned in one of the Horus Heresy shorts. Course I'm likely wrong, so if someone could confirm or deny this, I would appreciate it very much.


_The First Heretic_ has Lorgar referring to the two missing Primarchs as "the forgotten and the purged."

This may be what you're referring to.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Its safe to say, I think, that the Space Wolves were somehow involved in the fates of the Lost Legions. Enough hints and statements have been dropped to that effect across numerous novels now, even from the mouth of Russ himself.
> 
> We even have specific dates for these "two separate tragedies": 965.M30 and 969.M30. About 40 years before the bombardment of Isstvan III (I'm not sure if these dates align perfectly with events in _The First Heretic_ though).
> 
> ...


Yeah, thats probably it. Thanks


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

DeathJester921 said:


> Angron himself would have slain untold numbers of the Space Wolves and perhaps Russ himself had Russ not chosen to break off the engagement. The World Eaters still hounded the hounds while they were retreating as well.


I've just gone over The Night of the Wolf in _Betrayer_ again and that was not the case. Angron effectively defeated Russ in the duel, but the World Eaters lost the battle. Russ spared Angron's life when the gladiator-king was surrounded by packs of Wolves in the vain hope of teaching Angron an important lesson and to prove how much damage the Nails were doing to the World Eaters. Russ had Angron at his mercy and could have easily killed him, but chose not to.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I've just gone over The Night of the Wolf in _Betrayer_ again and that was not the case. Angron effectively defeated Russ in the duel, but the World Eaters lost the battle. Russ spared Angron's life when the gladiator-king was surrounded by packs of Wolves in the vain hope of teaching Angron an important lesson and to prove how much damage the Nails were doing to the World Eaters. Russ had Angron at his mercy and could have easily killed him, but chose not to.


Huh. So I interpreted it differently. Alrighty then.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

DeathJester921 said:


> Already addressed this. Night of the Wolves (or something to that effect) involving the Space Wolves and the World Eaters. Russ was beaten in a brawl but Angron during that brawl got himself surrounded by the Wolves while the World Eaters were butchering any of the Wolves in sight. Basically, yeah the World Eaters sent the Wolves scurrying because of the nails effects on the World Eaters. Angron himself would have slain untold numbers of the Space Wolves and perhaps Russ himself had Russ not chosen to break off the engagement. The World Eaters still hounded the hounds while they were retreating as well.
> 
> 
> 
> It does. But I swear I read that the Missing Primarchs were called The Lost and The Damned in one of the Horus Heresy shorts. Course I'm likely wrong, so if someone could confirm or deny this, I would appreciate it very much.


 If Russ was referring to the night of the wolves why all the secrecy? The impression I got from prospero what that there was another engagement before that.

And finally why send russ to angron? Horus or sanguinious would have more success in knocking sense into him.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> And finally why send russ to angron? Horus or sanguinious would have more success in knocking sense into him.


Its heavily implied in the text that no one actually sent Russ, he took it upon himself to confront Angron.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Its safe to say, I think, that the Space Wolves were somehow involved in the fates of the Lost Legions. Enough hints and statements have been dropped to that effect across numerous novels now, even from the mouth of Russ himself.


I used to agree...but a conversation in _The Unremembered Empire_ struck me as...odd.

It's between a Space Wolf named Faffnr who is sent to watch over Guilliman and Guilliman himself.

G: Your reputation as the sanction is well known and *perhaps undeserved.* We all serve according to our courage.

(a little bit later in the conversation)

F: You heard the fate that befell Prospero?

G: The Wolves were unleashed to issue sanction to Magnus.

F: Yes. Not so undeserved a reputation after all, eh?
~~~~~~~~~~

It'd be odd for them to say that if the Wolves had, in fact, already sanctioned two Legions prior. It seems Prospero was the first whole-sale sanction.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> We even have specific dates for these "two separate tragedies": 965.M30 and 969.M30. About 40 years before the bombardment of Isstvan III (I'm not sure if these dates align perfectly with events in _The First Heretic_ though).


Where are those dates from?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Where are those dates from?


Forgeworld's _The Horus Heresy Book Two: Massacre_. 

I could post a screen shot of the relevant time line but I'm not sure the mods would appreciate the infringement!


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Gah! My copy has not arrived yet!


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Just 40 years before Istavaan? Two legions and their primarchs wiped out and already their brothers refer to them in a way that implies they've been gone for thousands of years? I think 40 years is too soon and will become problematic timeline-wise/etc. in future novels should they allude to the missing Primarchs as we've seen with previous books.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Just 40 years before Istavaan? Two legions and their primarchs wiped out and already their brothers refer to them in a way that implies they've been gone for thousands of years? I think 40 years is too soon and will become problematic timeline-wise/etc. in future novels should they allude to the missing Primarchs as we've seen with previous books.


Its worth noting that the whole entire Great Crusade took only 200ish years, so the missing Primarchs have been gone for about a quarter of that time, seems reasonable to me. Hell I think that means they've been missing for longer than certain Primarchs (Alpharius only did like 20 years didn't he?) have been around.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Just 40 years before Istavaan? Two legions and their primarchs wiped out and already their brothers refer to them in a way that implies they've been gone for thousands of years? I think 40 years is too soon and will become problematic timeline-wise/etc. in future novels should they allude to the missing Primarchs as we've seen with previous books.





MEQinc said:


> Its worth noting that the whole entire Great Crusade took only 200ish years, so the missing Primarchs have been gone for about a quarter of that time, seems reasonable to me. Hell I think that means they've been missing for longer than certain Primarchs (Alpharius only did like 20 years didn't he?) have been around.


Indeed. 

According to the latest Heresy time line Alpharius assumed command of the XXth Legion in 981.M30 (19 years before the Ullanor Triumph and 24 years before the bombardment of Isstvan III). 

In fact the XXth Legion itself was only founded "a few decades" (source: IA) before Alpharius was discovered and thus did not partake at all in the first century of the Great Crusade.


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## Bearer.of.the.Word (Aug 11, 2013)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Its safe to say, I think, that the Space Wolves were somehow involved in the fates of the Lost Legions. Enough hints and statements have been dropped to that effect across numerous novels now, even from the mouth of Russ himself.
> 
> We even have specific dates for these "two separate tragedies": 965.M30 and 969.M30. About 40 years before the bombardment of Isstvan III (I'm not sure if these dates align perfectly with events in _The First Heretic_ though).
> 
> The tragedies must have been quite a bit earlier than the dates supplied. Lorgar followed Chaos for approx 50 years before the Isstvan incident, but shortly after the purging of Khur, Lorgar is talking to Magnus and says something along the lines of 'could you simply expunge my legion as well, strike us from the histories and never speak our names again'.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Bearer.of.the.Word said:


> Child-of-the-Emperor said:
> 
> 
> > Its safe to say, I think, that the Space Wolves were somehow involved in the fates of the Lost Legions. Enough hints and statements have been dropped to that effect across numerous novels now, even from the mouth of Russ himself.
> ...


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Veteran Sergeant said:


> The primarchs talk about it, they talk about their missing brothers, and so they definitely existed at some point, and then didn't.


I swear I will slap both you and Darkblade, then dump a bucket of eggs on your head for good measure. The Primarch door is surel;y not completely closed in a general sense, and for you to suggest the writers are trying to "define" Warhammer 40k history (Something Star Wars tried, and failed, to do) is outrageous in my opinion.

You are correct that the Heresy series helpes to "clear-up" the grey spots on the Horus Heresy that so many people have been arguing over for years. However it does not completely define, as of yet, the outcomes and fates of ALL Primarchs. Surely many have and will fall, others turn to Choas, and some just disappear into the void; never to be seen again. However their are plenty of Primarchs, that didn't turn to Choas, that have survived or their Fate is unknown. Below I will not only give some examples, but also how they could possibly make a comeback.

Our Prime example from Lexicanum states that Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves Legion, disappeared into the Eye of Terror with his personal retinue. This means he survived the Horus Heresy intact, and then departed. Perhaps he could return to fight again for his Father, or maybe return a servant of Choas. It remains unclear which path would be most likely, so feel free to suggest idea's for this one.

Vulkan of the Salamander's Chapter had a similar departing, stating he would return at the "End Times." Perhaps we can find him off fighti9ng some great enemy, or beyond the stars in some remote location; possibly even in the hands of the Necrons.

Guilliman is on the "instant of death," with rumors stating his wounds are healing. If they fully heal would he be revived. What if they could cure him, or save him from death. A minut possibility but not one that can be ignored.

Luther is sleeping, not even Dead!!! The man will return when he is needed again to fight "...a larger and even greater Crusade." Definitly will see this guy again, perhaps even have him wake up early by accident. Would make quite the sotry line, and possibly a Omnibus worthy series.

Corvax also disappeared into the Eye of Terror, on a mission of regret or damnation. Perhaps they will reveal the truth to his fate.

As for the Primarchs of Choas we know the Fulgrim is a Slaanesh Deamon Prince with immense power. Perturabo is known to be alive, his powers used recently to aid Abbadon the Despoiler on his 13th Black Crusade by opening a Warp Portal for the invading forces. Finally let us not forget the infamous Angron, Deamon Prince of Khorne and arguably one of the most deadly Primarchs known, is still in the service of Khorne.

And let us not forget the two "DELETED" Primarchs. There are rumors abound they still live on, innocent to the ways of the galaxy. Other still claim they are dead, killed by the Emporer himself for good reasons. 

Thus, for all reading this, I would chastise earlier comments that the Primarchs are a done deal; a "End of discussion, NO" answer. They most certainly could come back if the writers really wanted to make it happen. GW probably won't do this for quite some time, as it would throw a complete wrench into their current plans for the games development. However I feel, and you may agree, that eventually they will create a storyline, or better an Expansion, in which the Primarchs start re-appearing to fight one another again. Or the end times may return, and the Primarchs will wake/return once more to finish the fighting started during the Horus Heresy. 

We just don't know the mind of the writers is the general conclusion. To say No would be a lie, to say Yes is not truth. As with the Star Wars series we see Goerge Lucas attempt to explain back story in his recent Episodes I, II, III. Now we see Episode VII in produciton, and VIII/IX being planned. The possibility exists my freinds, just be patient and lets see where the writers will take us.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

emporershand89 said:


> Perturabo is known to be alive, his powers used recently to aid Abbadon the Despoiler on his 13th Black Crusade by opening a Warp Portal for the invading forces. Finally let us not forget the infamous


source?


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## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

Hey EH I think you mean Lion not Luther right?


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

If they did introduce them now, there'd have to be approximately one metric fuckload of retconning GW would have to do.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Alsojames said:


> If they did introduce them now, there'd have to be approximately one metric fuckload of retconning GW would have to do.


You mean like when they released the necron codex.

To me I view everything that happens in 40K is already happened we're archeologists who are constantly uncovering new information as to what happened.

So as far as we know there's two primarchs purged but in reality they could come back anytime.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Phoebus said:


> I have a storyline I've kept in the back burner for so long now, that deals with that exact question. It uses one of the timeline notes from the main rulebook - wherein it's revealed that all communications from Segmentum Pacificus suddenly cease. This is right before Abaddon's Thirteenth Black Crusade begins.
> 
> My story focuses on one of the Missing Primarchs returning right before Abaddon launches his attack. He is as committed to defeating Chaos as he is disgusted by what the Imperium turned into after the Heresy, and in essence has been waiting for the perfect storm to happen, so as to roll in and seize power. Pacificus going silent is part and parcel of his blitzkrieg coup, facilitated by his returned Legion - of which large elements were already operating incognito, masquerading as Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes.


That sounds cool, I'd love to read more about that.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Alsojames said:


> If they did introduce them now, there'd have to be approximately one metric fuckload of retconning GW would have to do.


Each. :laugh:



Phoebus said:


> I have a storyline I've kept in the back burner for so long now, that deals with that exact question. It uses one of the timeline notes from the main rulebook - wherein it's revealed that all communications from Segmentum Pacificus suddenly cease. This is right before Abaddon's Thirteenth Black Crusade begins.
> 
> My story focuses on one of the Missing Primarchs returning right before Abaddon launches his attack. He is as committed to defeating Chaos as he is disgusted by what the Imperium turned into after the Heresy, and in essence has been waiting for the perfect storm to happen, so as to roll in and seize power. Pacificus going silent is part and parcel of his blitzkrieg coup, facilitated by his returned Legion - of which large elements were already operating incognito, masquerading as Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes.


I would also be very interested in reading more on this. Sounds like an interesting concept


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

emporershand89 said:


> I swear I will slap both you and Darkblade, then dump a bucket of eggs on your head for good measure.


 Hopefully you're a fast runner, lol.


> Thus, for all reading this, I would chastise earlier comments that the Primarchs are a done deal; a "End of discussion, NO" answer. They most certainly could come back if the writers really wanted to make it happen.


I will grant you this caveat. It is quite certainly possible for Games Workshop to compound bad decisions with more bad decisions. Bad writing is certainly no stranger to 40K.



> We just don't know the mind of the writers is the general conclusion. To say No would be a lie, to say Yes is not truth. As with the Star Wars series we see Goerge Lucas attempt to explain back story in his recent Episodes I, II, III.


And we all saw how that turned out. Great example.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

emporershand89 said:


> I swear I will slap both you and Darkblade, then dump a bucket of eggs on your head for good measure.





Veteran Sergeant said:


> Hopefully you're a fast runner, lol


lol



emporershand89 said:


> I'm the looser in front kneeling with the Cavalry Sabre. Taken at units "Dining In" last May.


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