# *spoilers* Loken present at Siege of Terra?



## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

*possible spoilers for Garro: Legion of One*

Also I got some wondering. Ive knows been speculated more than one time and perhaps it doesnt deserve a thread of its own but anyhow. So I was listening to the mp-3 version of Horus Rising, which is pretty much the same deal as the novel (Ive read it twice but it was some time now).

I was thinking first when I heard the description about Abaddon (not exact quote but you get the idea) "He wore Terminator armor colored black, like he was a member of another Black Legion". Its pretty hinted about his future there. The next thing then that got me tangled is Lokens story in the beginning "I was there when Horus slew the Emperor". Could that be a hint at his future? Could he potentially have been present at the end of the Siege?


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I think that's just referencing the battle in that book, where a man calling himself 'the Emperor' is killed by Horus. Although, that being said, I had something of a similar thought, that mabe this would be the ultimate call-back at the end of the last HH book. It would be a nice touch I think, although changed to, "I was there when the Emperor slew Horus."
Talking of refugees from the Traitor Legions being on Terra, and *SPOILER ALERT*





I wonder if the Warsmith from AoD influenced how the Emperor fought at the end of the Siege of Terra? He talks about every fortress falling and that it is the ability to aknowledge this that marks out a good commander. He quits his Keep and teleports to the enemy ship- unexpected and balls-y. There is a snchronicity with the Emperor teleporting to Horus' ship; Horus may have invited it, but the Emperor knew the Palace was almost lost and knew he needed to go the balls-out option. Did Perturabo's teachings indirectl aid in the defeat of Horus? So many shout-outs, so many threads across the galaxy and time!

GFP


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> I think that's just referencing the battle in that book, where a man calling himself 'the Emperor' is killed by Horus. Although, that being said, I had something of a similar thought, that mabe this would be the ultimate call-back at the end of the last HH book. It would be a nice touch I think, although changed to, "I was there when the Emperor slew Horus."
> Talking of refugees from the Traitor Legions being on Terra, and *SPOILER ALERT*
> 
> I wonder if the Warsmith from AoD influenced how the Emperor fought at the end of the Siege of Terra? He talks about every fortress falling and that it is the ability to aknowledge this that marks out a good commander. He quits his Keep and teleports to the enemy ship- unexpected and balls-y. There is a snchronicity with the Emperor teleporting to Horus' ship; Horus may have invited it, but the Emperor knew the Palace was almost lost and knew he needed to go the balls-out option. Did Perturabo's teachings indirectl aid in the defeat of Horus? So many shout-outs, so many threads across the galaxy and time!


Well of course that could be case a with much things in 40k. you never know what may be a reference or simply just a coincidence.  I forgot to add. _Little Horus_ IMO later add on this, where the Sons of Horus think he is dead, byt Horus Aximand is still haunted by the memories of just him. So it feels like a bit of showdown between those two perhaps. 

Oh that was a really great point as well, perhaps the loyal Iron Warrior taught something the Emperor could use of later on.  Thats what I mean, you never know what hints might be directed to the future and outcome. ^^


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## Some Call Me... TIM (Apr 3, 2011)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> I wonder if the Warsmith from AoD influenced how the Emperor fought at the end of the Siege of Terra? He talks about every fortress falling and that it is the ability to aknowledge this that marks out a good commander. He quits his Keep and teleports to the enemy ship- unexpected and balls-y. There is a snchronicity with the Emperor teleporting to Horus' ship; Horus may have invited it, but the Emperor knew the Palace was almost lost and knew he needed to go the balls-out option. Did Perturabo's teachings indirectl aid in the defeat of Horus? So many shout-outs, so many threads across the galaxy and time!
> 
> GFP


:goodpost:
That is quite interesting. I never really thought of it like that. But it sounds like a logical explanation.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> I think that's just referencing the battle in that book, where a man calling himself 'the Emperor' is killed by Horus.


This ^^


Seeing as many canon sources tell us how horus killed the emperor, and unless he is that poor marine who gets zapped by horus, then he was THERE when horus killed the emperor.

And if he was that bloke, he wasnt talking about it afterwards anyway.


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

I think both 'Horus Rising' and 'False Gods' (and probably most of the others too, but I haven't read them as extensively as those two) directly include bits like that as a sort-of irony that the character's don't realize the the sinister double-meaning of their words. 

Phrases like "I was there Horus slew the Emperor", "I was there the day Horus fell" and the phrase Horus himself says before Davin "Everything I have done so far will pale into insignificance comparing to what I am about to do" (or something like that) are all there for us as the reader and the reader alone to appreciate, because we know the end before it happens, but the characters don't when they say it. It's a very good example of fore-shadowing and a display of both McNeill's and Abnett's great writing ability.

However...*spoiler alert*







...whilst I haven't read 'Legion of One' or 'Oath of the Moment', I hear that in one of them you discover Loken's true fate, which is not, as we suspected until now, death. At least, not in a bodily form. I will say no more...


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

YES, Loken will be at the Siege of Terra. In the Grey Knight Codex and the Collected Visions, there is mention of 8 hooded Astartes who are taken before the Emperor during the siege, by Malcador. These 8 go on to become the founding Grandmasters of the Grey Knights, Loken is one of them. After they get the OK from the Big E, they leave and go to Titan to found their new "Chapter". I once thought Loken might have been on the Vengeful Spirit when Horus and the Emp fought but i'm not sure anymore. He might be on Titan at the time it seems. There are many things in the books that are easy to overlook but do foreshadow the characters future. In Horus Rising Loken has a foretelling of the future, during the ceremony when he is inducted to the Mornival. He sees himself alone left for dead on a battle torn world (Istvaan III). He also sees himself in a desperate last stand at the Emperors side. He dose not see Horus but feels he must be there with him. This event IS going to happen. Maybe its on Terra or perhaps he dose go to the Vengeful Spirit. Only time will tell.

My list of the 8...


Loken -- Luna Wolves

Qruze -- Luna Wolves

Tarvitz -- Emperors Children

Garro -- Death Guard

Varren -- World Eaters

Arvida -- Thousand Son

Tarrasch -- Iron Warriors

Rubio -- Ultramarines


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> YES, Loken will be at the Siege of Terra. In the Grey Knight Codex and the Collected Visions, there is mention of 8 hooded Astartes who are taken before the Emperor during the siege, by Malcador. These 8 go on to become the founding Grandmasters of the Grey Knights, Loken is one of them. After they get the OK from the Big E, they leave and go to Titan to found their new "Chapter". I once thought Loken might have been on the Vengeful Spirit when Horus and the Emp fought but i'm not sure anymore. He might be on Titan at the time it seems. There are many things in the books that are easy to overlook but do foreshadow the characters future. In Horus Rising Loken has a foretelling of the future, during the ceremony when he is inducted to the Mornival. He sees himself alone left for dead on a battle torn world (Istvaan III). He also sees himself in a desperate last stand at the Emperors side. He dose not see Horus but feels he must be there with him. This event IS going to happen. Maybe its on Terra or perhaps he dose go to the Vengeful Spirit. Only time will tell.
> 
> My list of the 8...
> 
> ...


As for the last four, i'm assuming they show up later in the novels, because I have yet to read about them...except for Varren. I can't remember if he's made an appearance in the novels yet. Does it specifically say in the GK codex who those 8 hooded Astartes were?


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## kickboxerdog (Jun 2, 2011)

from someone i know who is uber on all things HH the 1st grandmaster of the grey knights is a marine called janus , he was recrutied by garro and loken, 

from the list wrote i cant say much more except the 8 marines that are refered to ( hooded marines stood before the emp) thoses 8 actually went out amoungst the stars and recruited marines to become grey knights


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## kickboxerdog (Jun 2, 2011)

*this might help*

Much of the Grey Knights history remains in mystery and secrecy or has been purposefully removed from archives. However according to legend, the Grey Knights began as a project during the final days of the Horus Heresy. The Emperor foresaw that the Heresy would likely end at such a great personal cost to himself that he would be prevented from actively defending mankind from the great threat of Chaos and its Daemons. So the Emperor set in motion a plan to form a defence against such evil. Malcador the Sigilite, closest of the Emperor's servants, was sent to search across the Imperium for men suitable to rise to such a burden.10 p.6-7 
Malcdor found twelve worthy champions; four were lords and administrators, and eight were Space Marines, some hailing from Legions that had turned traitor. The Emperor surveyed the chosen recruits and granted his approval and consent to proceed with the project. So the recruits split ways to go off towards separate tasks; the four lords ventured off to lay the framework of the Inquisition, whilst the Space Marines and Malcador traveled to Saturn's moon of Titan.10 p.6-7 
Titan, through Malcador's sorcerous means, had been hidden away from the ravages of the Horus Heresy. When they arrived they found a Fortress Monastery already fully prepared and stocked with everything necessary to create a new army of Space Marines including supplies of gene-seed, which is suspected to have been taken from the Emperor directly, and all the necessary armaments. The fortress was also already populated with hundreds upon hundreds of suitable recruits from across the Galaxy. Some were raw and untrained, whilst others were selected in secret from among the ranks of loyalist Legions. This new army would be a Chapter - a smaller, tighter brotherhood of Space Marines than a Legion. Malcador could no longer remain and thus he appointed Janus, one of the eight original Space Marines, to be the Grey Knights leader and take the title of Supreme Grand Master. Before leaving, Malcador cast his greatest enchantment yet; he hid Titan away from Horus in the most unlikely of places, inside the Warp itself. Titan was protected by Macro-Geller fields and sigilic rites whilst the final battles of the Heresy took place in Real Space.10 p.6-7 
When Titan eventually returned, the Second Founding was taking place. Whilst in the warp, time had passed at a greater rate for Titan and so it had emerged not with the original eight Space Marines and their raw recruits, but with a full Chapter of one thousand fully trained Battle-Brothers. The Second Founding was being directed by the newly formed Inquisition under the control of the same lords who Malcador had selected years before. So they secretly included the Grey Knights amongst the growing list of new Chapters, designating them Chapter 666, despite there being barely 400 Chapters commissioned at the time. The Grey Knights, different from all the other new Chapters, were embedded within the Inquisition to serve as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus to fight against all things Daemonic.10 p.6-7


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

@ kickboxerdog fooking amazing mate  i knew it 

It says something that at the time of the second founding they could hide an entire planet in the warp


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Deus Mortis said:


> I think both 'Horus Rising' and 'False Gods' (and probably most of the others too, but I haven't read them as extensively as those two) directly include bits like that as a sort-of irony that the character's don't realize the the sinister double-meaning of their words.
> 
> Phrases like "I was there Horus slew the Emperor", "I was there the day Horus fell" and the phrase Horus himself says before Davin "Everything I have done so far will pale into insignificance comparing to what I am about to do" (or something like that) are all there for us as the reader and the reader alone to appreciate, because we know the end before it happens, but the characters don't when they say it. It's a very good example of fore-shadowing and a display of both McNeill's and Abnett's great writing ability.


Well the self irony I can agree on, but thats kinda what I meant, perhaps there is more to the irony, kinda like a hint at future events. 



Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> My list of the 8...
> 
> 
> Loken -- Luna Wolves. Found, but wont give spoilers.
> ...


This is getting a bit off topic but I leave my remark here. Actually I do *not* think Garro is one of the eight presented as the first Grand-Masters, neither Qruze (well Im not sure. Perhaps that he was one of the 8). I think he recieved the role as one of the first battle-captains (since thats the role Garro had as a Death Guard) and if you look, thats the title company commanders have in the present GK.  I think he was responsible for finding the 8 people, but he was not one of them. _Unless_, he became the first Supreme Grand-Master. But anyhow, not important.

Also the 69-70 Death Guards under his command I would believe turned to some of the first Grey Knights as well. But Garro could for all intense and purpose be one of the 8, so I dont know.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Arvida -- Thousand Son. Who???? ------> AoD, Rebirth.

Tarrasch -- Iron Warriors. Who??? -------> AoD, Iron Within.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

in terms of tarvitz i am sure at some point one of the emperor's children dread's mentioned a secret hanger on isstvaan during galaxy in flames....that may do it in terms of escape route


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## kickboxerdog (Jun 2, 2011)

demonictalkin56 said:


> in terms of tarvitz i am sure at some point one of the emperor's children dread's mentioned a secret hanger on isstvaan during galaxy in flames....that may do it in terms of escape route



yeah we not heard the last of him( or i hope not)


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

As said, James Swallow said himself unless no author comes up with an awesome way to bring him back, he's pretty much dead. I think it is Fulgrim or Galaxy in Flames when the hangar is found but so said.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

demonictalkin56 said:


> in terms of tarvitz i am sure at some point one of the emperor's children dread's mentioned a secret hanger on isstvaan during galaxy in flames....that may do it in terms of escape route


I remember reading about that. The same hangar the Emperor's Children dreadnought found. Mentioned in Fulgrim I believe that the dreadnought found it and stayed there throughout the bombardment. 
You could be right, but I still think the man is dead, based off of the writing. Who knows


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

@Kickboxerdog
Is that wall of text from the new Grey Knights codex?

I like to think Tarvitz will make it out. Mostly just wishful thinking on my part, but i truely don't see the point in mentioning Rylanor going to guard a underground hanger of sorts if it wasn't going to be relevant later on. Tarvitz is an incredibly good commander with sound logic. I just can't see him knowing that he and the rest of his men good survive the bombardment by going to the hanger and not going there.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> @Kickboxerdog
> Is that wall of text from the new Grey Knights codex?
> 
> I like to think Tarvitz will make it out. Mostly just wishful thinking on my part, but i truely don't see the point in mentioning Rylanor going to guard a underground hanger of sorts if it wasn't going to be relevant later on. Tarvitz is an incredibly good commander with sound logic. I just can't see him knowing that he and the rest of his men good survive the bombardment by going to the hanger and not going there.


The quote is from the new GK codex.

I can see Tarvits knowing about the Hanger and not going there. 

1) Tarvitz had Very little time to go any ware when the Bombs started falling. He had just started thinking there might be bombs coming when they started falling. 

2) In GiF it says "The loyalists did not throw themselves into cover or run for shelter - there was little point."

3) Why would Tarvits be fighting near the Hanger? If they were close to the hanger would it not make it more likely to be discovered by the army trying to kill them? Their plan was to bleed Horus as much as they could and not survive a Orbital strike. If i were Tarvitz and new about a Hanger that might get me off the planet should i survive the war i would fight /far/ away.

4) It has been made clear that you don't need to be in a bomb shelter to live through this bombing, Loken did it.

My idea is that Tarvitz and the others lived with the help of the Emperor. His Divine Intervention. The Emperor Protects. Faith in him was their SHIELD. It was the first manifestation of the "Shrouding". The Vengfull Spirit simply missed their targets.


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## Tom.w (Jun 15, 2011)

It's definitely a possibility considering he survived the confrontation with abbadon but only time will tell unfortunately we don't know what direction GW will take his fate, the same applies to tarvitz.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Fair points, but again, why mention it? I hope it is something they come back to at some point, otherwise its going to be something that drives me crazy with curiosity.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

You could be right indeed! There have been more than one time when they have slightly mentioned something to later on built upon it.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

*Spoilers* No really for Legion of One


I hate the fact that Loken's been brought back. I mean the way it was done was handled well- going mad and becoming Cerebus, but him coming back alone spoils it. 

He really should not have come back, it cheapens the first three novels and his character. What we originally had was a character who epitomised all that was good about the Astartes and the Great Crusade, this shining personification of 30k's ideals is then betrayed and brutally cast aside to die alone. This is good, this is pathos and tragedy. Part of this tradegy was that the traitors had 'won', the galaxy would soon be engulfed in war and things will never be the same again. 

Loken should definitely not end up back on Terra or horus' battlebarge to face Abaddon and Horus Axiamnd again, to even the score so to speak. It undermines the whole pathos of that opening trilogy because Loken is back and fighting the good fight and even the future Warmaster and chosen of the Chaos Gods can't finish him off properly. It's the antithesis of what the Heresy and 40k is supposed to stand for, good guys don't survive, they don't come back from near death experiences to continue the good fight, life is fragile and taken away at a whim even for an Astartes. They die, alone, forgotten and for a futile cause. A Thousand Sons, Fulgrim, The First Heretic, Mechanicum all emphasis this. The futility and waste of all it. The opening trilogy used to but now it's meta text is just relegated to 'Horus and Abaddon royally piss of Loken and kill 30k's Chandler'.

If any of the loyalists on Istvann had to come back it should have been Saul Tarvitz and Ancient Rylanor, at least they had a more plausible possible survival. Loken was beaten, stabbed, had a cathedral collapse on him and was then caught in a planetary bombardment. 

Besides neither Garro or Loken are psychic, a prime requisite for being a Grey Knight. They also do not posses Grey Knight gene seed. Now i could stomach them being some kind of mentor figures to the first Grey Knights, but fully fledged Grey Knights themselves? Not at all.


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