# Fluff mistakes in BL books



## Shadow Walker (Jun 10, 2010)

I would like to know if fluff mistakes in BL books would make you stop reading particular book or series? would it prevent you from purchasing particular book or series? would it prevent you from purchasing books from the same author? in short words - are you fluff purist to the inquisitorial extreme or just mistakes make you only angry that author should pay more attension to wh40k lore?


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

I dont think ive ever seen a lore mistake in the BL novels. The authors prepare quite painstakingly to write them, going over source materials, older novels that cover similar subjects, asking other authors for lore advice.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

i go by the creed that everyone has a unique interpretatrion of the 40k world, as long as they stick to the traitors and the loyalsts for example whos to say that a word bearer may not suddenly develope a conscience and try to right a wrong, it wouldn't stop me reading a book unless they were totally way off base and nothing made actual sense like descent of angels imho


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

gothik said:


> A Word Bearer may not suddenly develope a conscience and try to right a wrong.


Actually that semi-happened in one of Ben Counter's novels _Daemon World_, one of the characters was a Word Bearer who turned his back on Chaos. Although he was still selfish and ruthless and didn't have a conscience but he did work to strike against Chaos.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

hmm thanks for that LOTN i have got deamon world just not got round to reading it yet what with all the HH stuff that came out will have to read it


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

This is one area that I think will be endlessly debated...

My take on it is this falls along the lines of both LotN and Gothik. When author's write for Black Library, it's not as though the great minds-that-be do not check it for accuracy. While there are some certain dramatic licenses taken... these are primarily to both keep the world "fresh" and the tales different, not as a "THIS IS THE WAY IT SHOULD BE DAMMIT!"

BL has also been quite adamant that the Imperium is a fething big place. Just because Imperial Guard do something in the Ultima Segmentum doesn't mean they act the same way, or are even _structured_ the same way as someone in the Segmentum Solar. 

The same goes for Chaos. The decision to fall is really something that each individual Legionnaire/traitor made on his own, despite any sort of pressures placed on him from the outside world/immaterium. Therefore, if these reasons are not satisfied or found to be false, it would make sense to turn your back on something that let you down, whether it be the Imperium or Ruinous Powers.

Wow, fucking tangent.

Anyways, think of the Codicies (is that even a word? Firefox says no...) as one aspect, the "by-the-book" side of the Imperium/lore. However, distinct differences exist because every single human being/Space Marine/Chaos Marine/Ork or whatever is not stamped out of the same mold. Each character, each segmentum, is shaped from experiences/historical necessity, and act accordingly.

But yeah... this started out as a coherent message and turned into a ramble. So if this shit doesn't make sense... yeah sorry.


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

Mike Lee’s apparent lack of effort at any attempt to write a convincing, interesting or even mildly accurate description of Astelan in Fallen Angels or in any way give the impression he had even read Angles Of Darkness, means I will not buy any more of his books. Fallen Angels was the first and it will be the last. 

If Fallen Angels had even been slightly entertaining in that he created a more interesting story than that in Angels of Darkness, then I may have overlooked some of his above transgressions. But I personally, I thought it was crap, so no more Mike Lee for me.


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

True or false as that may be, he also made no fluff errors (that I can think of, but it has been a while since I read it) in the book. Uninteresting and wrong are two compleeetely different topics


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

mal310 said:


> If Fallen Angels had even been slightly entertaining in that he created a more interesting story than that in Angels of Darkness, then I may have overlooked some of his above transgressions. But I personally, I thought it was crap, so no more Mike Lee for me.


Dont let that prevent you from getting Malus Darkblade if you venture into WFB, its an excellent series co-written by Dan Abnett and Mike Lee. Together they've done an amazing job.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

and thats why i thin Gav Thorpe should have written the Dark Angels HH series in my opinion he has a grasp of thier secrective nature and its esay flowing and enjoyable to read whereas scanlon and lee i found very difficult to get into and ther was no realt detail as to why lion el was sending certain troops home and keeping others, why he was growing resentful if thats the word to use of luther and co its an interesting theroy that needs to be explored and i found nothing of that in the two HH books so far in all homnesty the writers that write here can do a better job.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

i do like marius novels and i think that is probably where mike lee is better suited on the fantasy side as he seems to have more of a grasp of it adn i did like nagash even if it did flit backwards and fowards


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

gothik said:


> And thats why I think Gav Thorpe should have written the Dark Angels HH series, in my opinion he has a grasp of thier secrective nature and its esay flowing and enjoyable to read.


Well soon Gav Thorpe will be writing for the Heresy series and since he wont be writing about Eldar or Penal Legions its not a hard guess to figure out what he will write. The true Dark Angels will be returning.


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

BOC, in Fallen Angels Mike Lee introduces Astelan as a Terran (correctly). Later in the book he has him discussing with Zahariel how, when he was a child, he used to hunt ‘Reaver Worms’. ‘Reaver Worms’ native to Caliban and that every child of Caliban had heard of them. Well unless he took a holiday to Caliban when he was a young un, before even the Great Crusade reached there, I would say this was a ‘fluff’ error. This is even contradicting his OWN book, the SAME book! :good:


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

thanks lotn can't wait for that one will probably buy it when it comes out shuit me phone off take the day off work adn lock meself away like i almost did when i read fulgrim..


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

sometimes it happens that a writer can get so carried away that he forgets what he writes i know i do sometimes adn i am not even half as talented as some of these people i'd call that a mistake on his proof readers part but yeah it is a bit annoying never the less its all part and parcal and i still found it boring


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

I think the primary problem with novels is that each author (and understandably so) writes about the certain points that they believe should be the most emphasized.

Mike Lee/Mitchel Scanlon have different ideas as to the important aspects of the Dark Angels that need to really be focused on during the Heresy. I really doubt we've seen the last DA book in the HH series as well, so perhaps something will happen down the line that will make us all say "ooooooh shit that's why they wrote the!" I doubt it... but it can't hurt to hope.

But Thorpe, while I agree that he wrote DA excellently, also had the buffer of 10,000 years between his take and the others' takes. His views and opinions of events could and SHOULD be different, as history is always in motion (ever played a game of telegraph? yeah...) and the stories that are passed on tend to at least be slightly fucked up. Not to mention, no one is still sure whether or not Astelan was legitimately loyal or just a lying bastard, it's part of the whole ambiguity and appeal of his character.


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

mal310 said:


> BOC, in Fallen Angels Mike Lee introduces Astelan as a Terran (correctly). Later in the book he has him discussing with Zahariel how, when he was a child, he used to hunt ‘Reaver Worms’. ‘Reaver Worms’ native to Caliban and that every child of Caliban had heard of them. Well unless he took a holiday to Caliban when he was a young un, before even the Great Crusade reached there, I would say this was a ‘fluff’ error. This is even contradicting his OWN book, the SAME book! :good:


I stand corrected  I can't lie, I didn't enjoy the book at all and breezed through it as quickly as possible, so I more than likely missed any errors there may have been 

Even then, it's technically a proof-reading error (and a pretty damn big one) as opposed to an aberration against established lore. It's important to keep the two distinguished.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

and dark angels on the whole i think seeing as they have a habit of leaving the forces they are allied with in the lurch of a "fallen" is discovered and did anyone ever find out who the hell cypher was?? things seem to have gone quiet on that front


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

mal310 said:


> BOC, in Fallen Angels Mike Lee introduces Astelan as a Terran (correctly). Later in the book he has him discussing with Zahariel how, when he was a child, he used to hunt ‘Reaver Worms’. ‘Reaver Worms’ native to Caliban and that every child of Caliban had heard of them. Well unless he took a holiday to Caliban when he was a young un, before even the Great Crusade reached there, I would say this was a ‘fluff’ error. This is even contradicting his OWN book, the SAME book! :good:


True but remember that before the Great Crusade, when the colonies of man were established that many animals were taken from Terra to be re-seeded on other worlds. Reaver Worms would have been native to Terra and then imported to Caliban.


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

Lord of the Night said:


> True but remember that before the Great Crusade, when the colonies of man were established that many animals were taken from Terra to be re-seeded on other worlds. Reaver Worms would have been native to Terra and then imported to Caliban.


Nice try Lord of the Night 
But ‘Reaver Worms’ _“were a menace to human settlements, transforming small animals and livestock into living incubators for their eggs”._ Sometimes humans were used for this apparently. Their queens were also considered to be related to Caliban’s Great Beast problem. I think its unlikely they were re-seeded from Terra. 




Boc said:


> I stand corrected  I can't lie, I didn't enjoy the book at all and breezed through it as quickly as possible, so I more than likely missed any errors there may have been
> 
> Even then, it's technically a proof-reading error (and a pretty damn big one) as opposed to an aberration against established lore. It's important to keep the two distinguished.


I take your point Boc, but the lore in Fallen Angels regarding the fall is also completely different and contradictory to Angels of Darkness . In my opinion the take in Fallen Angels is much poorer. If it had been better then I could have forgiven this. 



Lord of the Night said:


> Well soon Gav Thorpe will be writing for the Heresy series and since he wont be writing about Eldar or Penal Legions its not a hard guess to figure out what he will write. The true Dark Angels will be returning.


I really hope Gav Thope does a Dark Angles HH book. I have really enjoyed his work with them so far . There is just about enough wriggle room from Fallen Angles to tidy up the mess.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

mal310 said:


> Nice try Lord of the Night
> 
> But ‘Reaver Worms’ _“were a menace to human settlements, transforming small animals and livestock into living incubators for their eggs”._ Sometimes humans were used for this apparently. Their queens were also considered to be related to Caliban’s Great Beast problem. I think its unlikely they were re-seeded from Terra.


So?, we know nothing of Ancient Terra, creatures like that may very well have existed back then. The original colonies were founding when even The Emperor hadn't been born yet, or at least we are relatively sure he wasn't. Reaver Worms may have existed on Terra then and have become extinct on the Throneworld by the time of the Great Crusade. Astelan said he hunted them, and if they were such a menace then its likely they would have been eradicated so maybe he hunted them as part of a genocide campaign.

When you see a lore error you've got to look at it from different angles. Likely sometimes there is something you were unaware of, or its an authors own take on something and he has twisted the words to make it sound wrong but in reality its correct.


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

Lord of the Night said:


> So?, we know nothing of Ancient Terra, creatures like that may very well have existed back then. The original colonies were founding when even The Emperor hadn't been born yet, or at least we are relatively sure he wasn't. Reaver Worms may have existed on Terra then and have become extinct on the Throneworld by the time of the Great Crusade. Astelan said he hunted them, and if they were such a menace then its likely they would have been eradicated so maybe he hunted them as part of a genocide campaign.
> 
> When you see a lore error you've got to look at it from different angles. Likely sometimes there is something you were unaware of, or its an authors own take on something and he has twisted the words to make it sound wrong but in reality its correct.


According to the current lore the Emperor was born in Central Anatolia around eighth millennium B.C. So If he walked into the local Fish and Chip shop he’d be about 10,000 years old already. 

As regards the worms I feel that you are just trying to fit things around a blatant error. It’s quite clear to me that these worms were not intended by the author to have originated from Earth. You could say they were from earth just to make it fit, but it doesn’t make sense and is a fudge.

The point I was trying to make is that I don’t believe that Mike Lee has paid attention to lore and characters that already have a history, and a good ones at that. I also felt that the whole book had been rushed and had a lack of detail to it. There are many many errors in this book, some of which I’ve detailed in other posts. 

If the book had been excellent then I could have looked past the continuity mess. But it wasn’t so I don’t. 

I’m sure some of his other work is a lot better but as far as this goes I feel it’s just not good enough.


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## Turkeyspit (Jun 11, 2010)

In my opinion, this is less a problem of BL writers, and more an indication of sloppy BL editors.

Writing about someone else's universe is a tricky thing. So many details that you could concoct in your mind need to be checked out with the IPs owner beforehand. I'm seeing this first hand as I'm attempting to finish up my submission for BL.

So I can easily see how an author can get off track, make false assumptions, and even outright contradict existing lore. But that is where the Editor steps in.

Remember that writing doesn't start _and_ end with the writer :so_happy:


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

mal310 said:


> According to the current lore the Emperor was born in Central Anatolia around eighth millennium B.C. So If he walked into the local Fish and Chip shop he’d be about 10,000 years old already.
> 
> As regards the worms I feel that you are just trying to fit things around a blatant error. It’s quite clear to me that these worms were not intended by the author to have originated from Earth. You could say they were from earth just to make it fit, but it doesn’t make sense and is a fudge.
> 
> ...


Maybe im right and maybe your right. The key fact is we dont know which. Maybe Mike Lee did make a continuity error there, and maybe he didn't. Either way errors aren't common or rare, ive never actually seen one in a novel. At least none that jump off the page, and I haven't seen any subtle mistakes either.

Occasionally there is a dating inconsistency but that can be ascribed to bad Imperial record-keeping. The start of _The Bleeding Chalice_ shows why the Imperium's records are crappy, they will burn an entire bookcase of history just to remove one heretical text, and then burn the bookcases near it. Its insanity.


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## Pathfinder201 (Jun 26, 2010)

I would never stop reading a 40k novel unless it was so bad it was painfull to read or had a gigantic fluff error like Horus was the new emporor and hadn't died he had taken over humanity and given it to chaos or something like that.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Lord of the Night said:


> Maybe im right and maybe your right. The key fact is we dont know which. Maybe Mike Lee did make a continuity error there, and maybe he didn't. Either way errors aren't common or rare, ive never actually seen one in a novel. At least none that jump off the page, and I haven't seen any subtle mistakes either.


I loathe to take a barbed sword to your bubble, but in _Galaxy in Flames _Tarvitz communes with Garro, whilst Garro and his contingent of Death Guard are upon the surface of Isstvan III, revealing the Warmaster`s treachery. In _The Flight of the Eisenstein_, whilst Tavitz speeds towards Isstvan III in a stolen Emperor`s Children Thunderhawk from the _Andronius_, he warns Garro whilst him, and his Astartes are aboard the frigate, the_ Eisenstein_, Grulgor and Typhon even emphasise upon Garro`s absense from the cleansing, I believe giving Grulgor the chance of a more personnel taste of revenge. I spotted it immediately, and was highly absorbed in the latter account, due credit to Swallow.

I agree that the Malus Darkblade series is arguably the best in Warhammer Fantasy, and I would rate _Nagash the *Sorcerer*_ within the higher echelons of Black Library also.

I am yet to read _Fallen Angels_, but frankly, as long as it is better than the utter incarnate boredom of _Descent of Angels_, I will be joyous.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

bobss he did a lot better with nagash and thats why i will buy the next one but i just dont think the two DA novels were up to scratch although with the ones they had to follow might have been tought, the HH series didn;'t just come into exzistance they blazed into existance adn it took ages to get galaxy in flames cos it sold out that quick in fact the lads in the GW shop in york ended up putting me a copy by of eachj new book just incase i couldnt get n the day they came in so i guess expectations were high but all in all aside from those two the others have been reasonable, not that hot on battle for the abyss either but hey ho..


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

_Nagash the Unbroken_, unfortunately isn`t as riveting as its prequel. It sheds alot of light upon the origins of the Vampires, but Nagash`s rise from damnation dosen`t really add much to the story 

That said, I remember chatting with Mike some time ago about the finale of the Nagash Trilogy, which seems up to the standard of the opening book.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

To be honest as long as Cs Goto didn't write it I'm fairly forgiving with any fluff inconsistencies in books.
The travesty he made of what could have been an interesting Eldar book is to bad for words.
The Blood ravens stuff was bearable as it was based more on the vagaries of a computer game rather than established fluff and background material.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

Agreed with the point on blood ravens, i think THQ may have slighty underestimated the fluff fans want to see behind any 40k chapter.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

neilbatte said:


> To be honest as long as Cs Goto didn't write it I'm fairly forgiving with any fluff inconsistencies in books.
> The travesty he made of what could have been an interesting Eldar book is to bad for words.
> The Blood ravens stuff was bearable as it was based more on the vagaries of a computer game rather than established fluff and background material.


I liked Goto's Deathwatch series but I read a bit of the Blood Ravens series. No thanks, ill stick with the games. They should wait until more DOW games have been released and write up a real Blood Ravens series, they are a very interesting chapter. They just need a good author.


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## Turkeyspit (Jun 11, 2010)

Lord of the Night said:


> I liked Goto's Deathwatch series but I read a bit of the Blood Ravens series. No thanks, ill stick with the games. They should wait until more DOW games have been released and write up a real Blood Ravens series, they are a very interesting chapter. They just need a good author.


Yeah, I was also a tad disappointed with the DoW book. Possibly one of the most insidious moments in the game's cinematics was when Isador had sabotaged the Blood Raven's Rhinos to permit him to study the artifact (echoing what Arthas did to his fleet of ships on Northrend in Warcraft III), and for some reason, that scene was completely absent from the novel.

I did enjoy his take on Toth though, and I thought it was an interesting twist to the story.


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## Turkeyspit (Jun 11, 2010)

Also, allow me to chime in here on _Fallen Angels_.

While I will not attempt to debate the validity of the issues people have brought up regarding that text, let me just say that I enjoyed it immensely.

_Fallen Angels_ was for me, the 1st W40K book to show me what I wanted to see: small scale Space Marine squad combat. I really enjoyed the description of Nemiels squad, their tactics, the rescue of Brother Titus, etc.

For me, it was a guilty pleasure, similar to an Arnold Schwarzenegger film. I'm willing to overlook_ a lot_ for a fun ride.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

I think youd love brothers of the snke then by Dan Abnett!


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

bobss said:


> I loathe to take a barbed sword to your bubble, but in _Galaxy in Flames _Tarvitz communes with Garro, whilst Garro and his contingent of Death Guard are upon the surface of Isstvan III, revealing the Warmaster`s treachery. In _The Flight of the Eisenstein_, whilst Tavitz speeds towards Isstvan III in a stolen Emperor`s Children Thunderhawk from the _Andronius_, he warns Garro whilst him, and his Astartes are aboard the frigate, the_ Eisenstein_, Grulgor and Typhon even emphasise upon Garro`s absense from the cleansing, I believe giving Grulgor the chance of a more personnel taste of revenge. I spotted it immediately, and was highly absorbed in the latter account, due credit to Swallow.


Are you sure about this one Bobss? I thought Garro was on the Eisenstein in both books. He never went to Isstvan III.


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

Isn't there a bit of difference in the battle between russ and magnus on prospero from the old space wolf omnibus version and the thousand sons version

The wolf lord garm is meant to sacrifice himself to prevent Magnus from striking the killing blow when shards of armour pierce russ's heart instead its the wolves.

I read spacewolf i while back so feel free to correct me.

In general i think as has been prior established people make mistakes, shit happens i dont see unless its a major ballsup why it should spoil your enjoyment


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

mal310 said:


> Are you sure about this one Bobss? I thought Garro was on the Eisenstein in both books. He never went to Isstvan III.


You are correct mal- Garro never went to the surface of Isstvan III in either book.


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## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

I think Deathbringer, that isn't really a mistake. Things like that are really re-writes, I would say the newer the version the more correct it is


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

mal310 said:


> Are you sure about this one Bobss? I thought Garro was on the Eisenstein in both books. He never went to Isstvan III.


Is that so? I`m sure I can remember Garro operating within a Thunderhawk in _Galaxy in Flames_, but being aboard the Eisenstein in the following novel.

I may need to re-read.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

It's Tarvitz in the Thunderhawk, voxing Garro for his aid.


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## Graf Spee (Apr 29, 2009)

there is lot's of rediculous and downright stupid stuff and errors in "mechanicum"
i was about to stop reading it halfway through. the same goes for "battle for the abyss".
it's not downright wrong, but totally overdone and stupidly written. there is lots of illogical crap in there. i can't put my finger directly to it, but it annoys me greatly, when i read something and think to myself "no way man. that is just to stupid for even ten years old kiddies." i mean if someone writes something that is just rediculous. in "battle for the abyss" as one example it was when they destroyed the dock to ensure no one knows of this ship. a ship that size, no one wonders what are they building all those long years and don't do anything else, the departments that took care of the vast resources needed, the endless stream of workers, extensive test runs, etc.. and finally no one wonders about that big explosion ripping that dock? i mean come on.. it's not in some backwater system with no one else around. it's the emperors home.
actually the whole ship was so grossly over the top i really hated reading.

and yeah, fluff mistakes put me off greatly. and all the fluff editing by gw that happened over the past ten years was extremely annoying for me..


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Graf Spee said:


> In "battle for the abyss" as one example it was when they destroyed the dock to ensure no one knows of this ship. a ship that size, no one wonders what are they building all those long years and don't do anything else, the departments that took care of the vast resources needed, the endless stream of workers, extensive test runs, etc.. and finally no one wonders about that big explosion ripping that dock? i mean come on.. it's not in some backwater system with no one else around. it's the emperors home.


All explainable.

Nobody knew about the ship because the only ones who did were loyal to Horus, and they kept it under secrecy to make sure that no loyalists could find out. The departments were all unaware Imperial workers who were there to build and knew little about the ships purpose, and the workers were already there, what they were supposed to be building were more warships and they were trusted to do that. The resources were all funnelled to the project secretly and members of the Mechanicus who were secretly loyal to Horus made sure that those resources were off the books. The novel itself was the test run for the ship, and the explosion was covered up as an accident involving the dangerous chemicals of the station.


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

I agree with Lord of the Night. During a time of VAST military expenditures, we're talking unfathomable amounts of men and resources constantly being moved and requisitioned, it is _highly_ likely that a couple thousand tonnes skimmed from the huge quantities being moved would go unnoticed, at least long enough to get away with it. While I didn't necessarily enjoy the book, I didn't find that premise incorrect at all.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

As a guy who is trying to soak up nearly everything about the fluff without actually buying the tabletop stuff yet (I'm poor!), I trust BL to verify their information and check their authors before they publish the books. I actually kinda thought they made some of the fluff, or at least expanded on things not described in detail by the Codexes and other more "official" sources.

If I did find anything that I knew was fishy, I'd still be okay with it. Sometimes you have to sacrifice one thing to get another, and if there's a minor (not a major) lore mistake in a very good story, I'll take the very good story.

Of course, I've really only read Abnett, McNeill, Counter, and maybe one other I can't recall. There are more authors than that at BL, so maybe the other ones are fishier. I'll find out eventually.


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

One thing I'd recommend is not buying 3 boxes of CSM termies because they're badass in the books. I made that mistake when I was brand new to the game... aaaaand all but three are unused. Those three have been converted to Oblits... so not a complete loss, I suppose!


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## polynike (Aug 23, 2008)

Lord of the Night said:


> Dont let that prevent you from getting Malus Darkblade if you venture into WFB, its an excellent series co-written by Dan Abnett and Mike Lee. Together they've done an amazing job.


I second that


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## Graf Spee (Apr 29, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> All explainable.
> 
> Nobody knew about the ship because the only ones who did were loyal to Horus, and they kept it under secrecy to make sure that no loyalists could find out.


come on, this is the sol system. home of the emperor, billions of loyalists and all his secret agencies. it's not some backwater system. it would have been impossible to keep it secret.



Lord of the Night said:


> The departments were all unaware Imperial workers who were there to build and knew little about the ships purpose, and the workers were already there, what they were supposed to be building were more warships and they were trusted to do that.


yeah, and? supervisors, engineers, authorities are unaware, too? when i'm constructing something, i always can figure out what it's for. even if it's only a small machinepart of a vast assembly. and there are people on BOTH sides that sell knowledge for money or privileges. you cannot keep something that big and consuming secret. simple as that. trust me on that :grin:



Lord of the Night said:


> The resources were all funnelled to the project secretly and members of the Mechanicus who were secretly loyal to Horus made sure that those resources were off the books.


all warfunds go over terra. yeah, there are traitors. but no one could cover up expenditures likes that without anyone loyal knowing.



Lord of the Night said:


> The novel itself was the test run for the ship, and the explosion was covered up as an accident involving the dangerous chemicals of the station.


and no one would investigate that and find out it was caused by weapons fire? rest assured the difference is damn easy to tell even by non techs. and there would have been questions. and none could have withstood investigation by the custodes.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Graf Spee said:


> Come on, this is the sol system. home of the emperor, billions of loyalists and all his secret agencies. it's not some backwater system. it would have been impossible to keep it secret.


The project was Mechanicus territory, not the Imperium's jurisdiction to meddle and spy. They were trusted to supply warships and thats what they did, just not to The Emperor. And at the time the Inquisition and other secret agencies did not exist, so spying wasn't something that happened commonly.



Graf Spee said:


> Yeah, and? supervisors, engineers, authorities are unaware, too? when i'm constructing something, i always can figure out what it's for. even if it's only a small machinepart of a vast assembly. and there are people on BOTH sides that sell knowledge for money or privileges. you cannot keep something that big and consuming secret. simple as that. trust me on that :grin:


Who would they sell it to. All the workers were housed on that station and anyone who had any involvement with the project was with Horus, they had no contact with the outside and that was very common. Most would be indentured workers living out their lives in service there. And so what if they figured out its a battleship, nobody knew of the traitors at the time and it was inconceivable to them, so they naturally assumed it was for The Emperor.



Graf Spee said:


> All warfunds go over Terra. Yeah, there are traitors. but no one could cover up expenditures likes that without anyone loyal knowing.


Enough traitors and you can. Many of the Mechanicus did side with Horus, and it was enough that they could run this by everyone that they needed to and make sure that only those loyal to Horus saw it and knew about it. And likely anyone who did find out about the ship would have never conceived it was for traitors, so they would have reported to their senior officers. Who would have likely been traitors and dealt with the matter. Plus they had the Fabricator-General on their side, he could cover up whatever he wanted to.



Graf Spee said:


> And no one would investigate that and find out it was caused by weapons fire?. Rest assured the difference is damn easy to tell even by non techs. and there would have been questions. and none could have withstood investigation by the custodes.


True they would have found out but by the time anyone found out it would be too late, the Heresy would be underway and them finding out would change absolutely nothing.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Hiding money and such, I would imagine that before the heresy, primarchs were probably the most trusted individuals and not questioned by other authority. I would also put the lords of mars in this category as they were supporters of terra but didn't have the emperor sticking his nose in their business.

p.s. one of the errors I would like to see explained or at least properly shown in the heresy novels is the amount of space marines each legion had under command. To many different sources and numbers for me to contemplate. One ranges in around 100,000 others 15,000. Though I think it will eventually be the lesser, I see the bigger one being more realistic with the great crusade and the greatness of the legions. But we shall see


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> p.s. one of the errors I would like to see explained or at least properly shown in the heresy novels is the amount of space marines each legion had under command. To many different sources and numbers for me to contemplate. One ranges in around 100,000 others 15,000. Though I think it will eventually be the lesser, I see the bigger one being more realistic with the great crusade and the greatness of the legions. But we shall see


Some number crunching I'm pulling out of my ass:

In the current time (M41) we know there are approximately 1000 space marine chapters.

Now, if each of these were full, that would be 1 million space marines... but we know that there are some that are significantly smaller (and one that is larger... but Black Templar's are silly anyways). Let's go with a happy medium and say 750 per chapter.

So we've got 750,000 space marines, all coming from the lineage of one of the initial Legions. This means that, probably, there were around 750,000 Space Marines loyal at the conclusion of the Heresy (this one is a bit more of a leap of logic)

I find it likely that this number is significantly smaller than the number that were running around during the time of the Heresy, for a few reasons:
1. A shit ton of them were killed off in the Heresy
2. Another shit ton of them turned _to_ Heresy.

Now, let's be conservative, and say that during the Great Crusade, there were roughly the same number of Loyalists and Traitors. So we take the initial 750,000 (based off of my assumption) and double it.

1,500,000 Space Marines.

And, with an incredibly conservative estimate of casualties suffered by Loyalist and Traitor forces combined of, say, 25% (simply for a nice, even number at the end  ) we've got, at the start of the Heresy:

2,000,000 Space Marines running around.

This gives credence to the Legions with hundreds of thousands of Marines.

Some of the many holes in Boc's-from-his-ass-Logic:
Raven Guard, Salamanders, and Iron Hands suffered FAR higher than 25% casualties (just in the Dropsite Massacre alone), pushing the theoretical number even higher.

Thousand Sons were an incredibly small legion, with around 10,000 Space Marines (in the book it also admits to their being extremely few when compared to their fellows), pulling the number back down a little bit.

But, yeah, I'm tired and if none of that made sense, I apologize. Regardless, I'd believe far more easily that the average Legion was _over_ 100,000 strong as opposed to around 15,000.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Boc said:


> Now, let's be conservative, and say that during the Great Crusade, there were roughly the same number of Loyalists and Traitors. So we take the initial 750,000 (based off of my assumption) and double it.
> 
> 1,500,000 Space Marines.
> 
> ...


Both _Raven Flight_ and_ Imperial Armour 8 _say that 80,000 Raven Guard deployed to Isstvan V, but only 3,000 managed to get off the planet- so that means 96.25% of the Raven Guard Legion was destroyed in the Heresy.

If we go with the larger figures then the Ultramarines lost 90.4% of their numbers in the Heresy and Scouring, and the Salamanders were probably around about the same as the RG and UM.

I think a more credible loss of some where between 60-90% for each Legion would be more accurate, the 3 Legions discussed above might have lost the most marines percentage wise but no legion was anything less than decimated.


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

Agreed, as I said I was pulling numbers out of my ass entirely

Regardless, all signs point towards huge numbers of Space Marines running rampant during the Heresy


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

I know some people who have criticised/stop reading a novel because the author used a word that was not in the style of the series.

I certainly have no such extreme prejudice.

I get more fed up if the method of story telling is hard to get into. For example, i found CS Goto's story in the Legends of the Space Marines very very hard to get into for the first 10 or so pages, because it relied heavily on either the readers pre-knowledge of the topic in discussion or reliance on the readers perseverance to get to the point where it makes sense. That being said, the actual story being told was very good (in my opinion) when i finally got there.

Edit. And so I find it tiresome when people are upset over little things (obviously big things to them and they are more often than not quite correct) such as the number of studs on a space marine's head being wrong or that sort of thing.


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