# Cpt. Lysander Vs. Pedro Kantor as an HQ



## WinZip (Oct 9, 2010)

Ok, so here is my question. For a shooty Imperial Fists army who is the better fit? Pedro or Lysander? For tactics they both share the stubborn rule. Lysander has B. drill, but that only affects men in his squad and he can also bolster defenses. Pedro on the other hand makes it so stern guard count as scoring units and gives all units an extra attack.

Your thoughts?


----------



## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

It depends on the list, and who you are playing, as well as the objective.

I've never used either, but from looking at codex, Lysander seems more survivable, and is more suited for an assault based army, where-as kantor seems better for objective games (due to sternguard scoring units) and range tactics, although his +1A within 12" sounds cool. 12" isn't all that far though ( I normally have my units spread out well) so this may not come in that handy.

Lysanders 4W, 2+/3++ and eternal warrior will make him very hard to kill, as opposed to Kantors 3W, 3+/4++ saves.

I'm finding it pretty hard to choose between them at the moment (wouldn't be able to decide until I actually use them), but at the moment I would say depends on the game, objective, and the foe, but Lysander does seem to be edging ahead for me, due to his awesome survivability...


----------



## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

Depends on the Chapter and list.


----------



## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Vrykolas2k said:


> Depends on the Chapter and list.


Well, it only depends on the chapter if you're playing a fluffy army really, or your opponent is a bit of an arse and won't let you play with a character if you don't have that army. 

Personally I don't have a problem if someone wants to run Kantor with ultramarines, or Lysander with raven guard.


----------



## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

No one seems to have mentioned that Lysander BLUDGEONS PEOPLE TO DEATH WITH A FUCKING RAILGUN.


----------



## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Why not just go Lysander and Vulkan


----------



## Scathainn (Feb 21, 2010)

Or Kantor/Vulkan for uber cheese.


----------



## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

I would say Lysander thanks to the bolter Defence and you not really ever needing mor ethan 1 sternguard unit anyway which he cna be put in. Having re-roll is better than being scoring in most cases. and my desission has nothing to do with the fact that i'm a Imperial Fist player! What ever made you think that?


----------



## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

jaws900 said:


> I would say Lysander thanks to the bolter Defence and you not really ever needing mor ethan 1 sternguard unit anyway which he cna be put in. Having re-roll is better than being scoring in most cases. and my desission has nothing to do with the fact that i'm a Imperial Fist player! What ever made you think that?


This is an awesome tactic, it doesn't need justification.
Stick Darnath and 10 Sternguard Vets inside a Drop Pod, drop down, obliterate some unit, go nuts in melee.


----------



## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

For a sternguard heavy list, I have to ask, why not take both? Lysander makes those Traitor rounds volleys MUCH more survivable, with rerolls to hit, and pedro means you can shove 'em on top of an objective to hold it. Why not?


----------



## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

coke123 said:


> For a sternguard heavy list, I have to ask, why not take both? Lysander makes those Traitor rounds volleys MUCH more survivable, with rerolls to hit, and pedro means you can shove 'em on top of an objective to hold it. Why not?


Because it's 375 points for 2 models.

Sure, if it's a high points game, then _why not_, but at lower levels it wouldn't be worth it me thinks


----------



## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

WinZip said:


> Ok, so here is my question. For a shooty Imperial Fists army who is the better fit? Pedro or Lysander? For tactics they both share the stubborn rule. Lysander has B. drill, but that only affects men in his squad and he can also bolster defenses. Pedro on the other hand makes it so stern guard count as scoring units and gives all units an extra attack.
> 
> Your thoughts?


Take them both, use Pedro for your chapter tactics and give Lysander a Termie bodyguard before letting him loose. I played a list with both of these guys in August and Lysander won the game for my opponent, but the inclusion of Pedro and some Sternguard meant that my Orks suffered from their almost constant shooting.

If nothing else, it's a proper Fist list if you take both.


----------



## Lord Pestilice (Jan 21, 2008)

Ultra111 said:


> Well, it only depends on the chapter if you're playing a fluffy army really, or your opponent is a bit of an arse and won't let you play with a character if you don't have that army.
> 
> Personally I don't have a problem if someone wants to run Kantor with ultramarines, or Lysander with raven guard.


Except your opponent can't stop you from using a special character model with his rules for another codex chapter under the "counts as" section of the BRB.


----------



## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Lord Pestilice said:


> Except your opponent can't stop you from using a special character model with his rules for another codex chapter under the "counts as" section of the BRB.


I know, but you always get those douchebags that don't see that bit


----------



## Rixnor (Dec 23, 2007)

I play exclusively Imperial Fists these days, and I have run with both. So first, either way I love suborn. Even though I know Combat Tactics is a better rule, I am a son of Dorn and would rather stay in a scrape then run and find a better position. Also Dorn is a badass and Guilliman doesn't no shit about tactics (just saying).

Anyway, as far as force multiplier rules go I think its a wash. Bolterdrill marginally increases your firepower, bolster defenses is good for sitting on some objectives. Hold the line is great, and the extra sternguard will increase your firepower (at a cost), plus you get an orbital bombardment.

Personal combat, Lysander caves in faces and can take a monster beating. Pedro makes the squads around it get a whole lot of extra attacks....again I think a wash, but it depends on the armies you play against.

The biggest reason I field one or the other is delivery method. I think this should be your biggest determining factor. Pedro can move in a rhino and Lysander can't. If you are running deep striking termies or drop pods I edge toward Lysander. If you are running a more tactical spread with rhinos and razorbacks I would go with Pedro. 

I run a three drop pod with terminators in my army....so I go with Lysander.

Hope this helps,

Rix


----------



## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Take both man, and why has no one mentioned the (not) always reliable orbital bombardment Kantor has?


----------



## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Rixnor said:


> Also Dorn is a badass and Guilliman doesn't no shit about tactics (just saying).


You uh, do know that the Imperial Fists follow Guilliman's Codex Astartes pretty closely, right?


----------



## Rixnor (Dec 23, 2007)

Winterous said:


> You uh, do know that the Imperial Fists follow Guilliman's Codex Astartes pretty closely, right?


From Lexicanum:
"He was summoned back to Terra when Roboute Guilliman announced the adoption of his Codex Astartes, turning Legions into Chapters. Dorn was initially outraged at this proposal......"

Orders are orders, doesn't mean you have to like them.

Rix


----------



## EmbraCraig (Jan 19, 2009)

In other news from lexicanum...



> Cleansed by their sacrifice, the Imperial Fists immediately began their reorganisation. For the next two decades they went into retreat, their successor Chapters taking to the field in their stead. Dorn used this time to retrain the Chapter to embrace all aspects of the Codex Astartes. When they later emerged, their adherence to the Codex was matched only by the Ultramarines.


----------



## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Served, Rixnor.


----------



## Rixnor (Dec 23, 2007)

Winterous said:


> Served, Rixnor.


All right, all right, I'll take that. I still think that Guilliman doesn't know shit about how to organize an army. The Codex Astartes is the worst examples of a tactical military structure. And Dorn is still a badass.

But I'm off topic so I'll just slink away.

Rix


----------



## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

How is the Codex a bad military structure?


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It isn't, he just has a hard on for legion sized sm armies. Lol


----------



## Rixnor (Dec 23, 2007)

gen.ahab said:


> It isn't, he just has a hard on for legion sized sm armies. Lol


Actually quite the opposite. I think its backed up in the books that the company size unit is the primary maneuver element. Both in the 40k stories and the Heresy series they often discuss the deployment of the captains and their company. The Codex Astartes is just flat out not organized to have effective company operations for a couple of reasons:

1 - They take all of the veterans from a company and move them into a specialist company (1st company). You just don't split all of your experience away, it lessens the cohesion a unit even if they are attached back to a battle company for a deployment. 

2 - They group all of the inexperienced members into one company (scouts). Same as the previous issue, you need them to be operating and training organically with a battle company to have the proper cohesion a fighting force should have.

3 - The reserve companies are just stupid. Why would you ever have a battle force comprised of 10 assault squads or 10 devastator squads? When would you ever use such a specialized force. Now the natural counter to that is that they are reserves for the main battle companies, but that means that you have a chapter of 1000 marines but at any given time you can only field 40% of them as a deployable balanced force. Why would you need so much reserves. The better model is to have the reserves organized like the battle companies and rotate back to the chapter homeworld to refit and serve as reserve then.

4 - The attachment scheme is just dumb. These units deploy for decades at a time how do they know what they are going to need from the armory/veterans/scouts when they leave. If there is some standard loadout that they have when they leave then they should be organized as such with these "attachments" organically integrated into the company.

I think the better organizational scheme is the space wolves great companies (not the packs). Marines spend there entire life in one fighting unit. That unit fights, deploys, and lives together thus strengthening the bonds of brotherhood between the marines. Any soldier will tell you that only after a unit has fought together for a long time can it really be an efficient force.

I'm not saying the Legion structure was any better before the Codex Astartes. They never really get into how that was organized except that there are still companies. I'm just saying that the Codex is just a very inefficient way to do it. 

OK a little bit of a rant but hey: you asked.

Rix


----------



## Jdwoogie (Jan 13, 2010)

i played against a marine build with both of them in the same damned squad. took me a whole squad of 5 Khorne Terminator champs and my deamon prince to kill them both... pissed me off
woog out!


----------



## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Jdwoogie said:


> i played against a marine build with both of them in the same damned squad. took me a whole squad of 5 Khorne Terminator champs and my deamon prince to kill them both... pissed me off
> woog out!


Can you even put 2 IC's into the same squad? I never thought of it lol


----------



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Yes Ultra it is allowed. they are both IC so are both considered to be in their own squads and thus IC lets one join the other to combine their "squad" into one. Then since their whole squad has two IC they can join another squad but the joining more squads ends there. xD 

This might not be the best way to explain it, but i'm distracted.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Rixnor said:


> Actually quite the opposite. I think its backed up in the books that the company size unit is the primary maneuver element. Both in the 40k stories and the Heresy series they often discuss the deployment of the captains and their company. The Codex Astartes is just flat out not organized to have effective company operations for a couple of reasons:
> 
> 1 - They take all of the veterans from a company and move them into a specialist company (1st company). You just don't split all of your experience away, it lessens the cohesion a unit even if they are attached back to a battle company for a deployment.
> 
> ...



1: Each squad comes with a Sgt.; that is like saying the US army is retarded because we don't have a member of (insert special forces group here) in every single squad. 

2: Scouts are still elite troops, they already have a substantial amount of training prior to deployment so that is void.

3: Each reserve company is spit up when a member of another company takes a casualty. SM armies take casualties like crazy, it is always good to have a substantial number of troops in receive.

4: Marines fight and stay in the companies they are assigned for their service, unless of course you are moved to the first company. Marines operate at a level no human could achieve in all aspects. They trust each battle brother implicitly; they fight just as well with one brother as the next. Also, they serve with their chapter for centuries, they most likely know most of their battle brother. 

Could be wrong with some things, but I think thats about it.


----------



## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Um, Rixnor, you do realise that they mix and match forces from different companies, don't you?


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Winterous said:


> Um, Rixnor, you do realise that they mix and match forces from different companies, don't you?


Yes, but not always.


----------



## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Well, every time you have a unit of Scouts, Devastators, or Assault Marines accompanying a normal force, that's what they're doing.


----------

