# Who would win in this battle of tactics/wits?



## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I know they lived far apart but both have been regarded as great warmasters. I want to know which one you think is the better commander.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

I don't know. Personally, I much prefer Slaydo, the original Warmaster of the Sabbat Worlds Crusade. But if I had to choose between those two, I'd say Horus. He seemed smarter while Marcharius has stuck me as being more fanatical in his goal than intelligence.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Quite a few variables in this to consider, the chief one being what armies they control? Does Horus have his Luna Wolves and the Byzant Janizers? Because that's a he'll of a force something Macharius never even came close to facing. My money's on Horus at the end of the day, would put a more descriptive answer but with no keyboard it simply takes to long ^^


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

No comparison, really.

One thousand worlds in only seven years, with perhaps only twenty-two (known) Regiments of the Imperial Guard, and no Primarchs, Astartes, or Emperor to help out?

To quote the Second Edition Codex: Imperial Guard: "No one ... won so many worlds for the Imperium nor taken armies beyond the edge of the galaxy and the light of the Astronomican."

By contrast, it took one hundred Chapters of Space Marines _ten times as long_ to pacify just _a majority_ of the territories he conquered during the Macharian Heresy that followed his death.

Macharius is better, hands down.

Besides, everyone knows that, whereas the Emperor vaporized that dirty traitor Horus' soul, Macharius only faked his death because--after his cowardly minions refused to follow him into the Halo Stars--there was no longer any point in wearing the Lord Commander Solar hat. What was he going to do? Listen to some jackass tell him to undertake a "lesser" Crusade? Become a High Lord and sit behind a giant Desk of Lame on Terra? Nah.

Having no other choice, Macharius put himself into stasis and gave everyone a nice show funeral. His minions were so glad that they didn't have to find new planets to annihilate in his name, that they never questioned how a man who prevented a bolter shell from exploding in his chest by flexing his pecks could die "of a fever". When the fake weeping was done with and his tomb-palace closed for the night, he took off, leaving a clone behind to amuse the masses.

To this day, Macharius uses stasis sleep, rejuvenation treatments, and exotic alcohol--made from fermented Tyranid tears and triple-psychically distilled Eldar nursing milk--to prolong his lifespan. He cruises the Galaxy incognito, sailing the stars in his old Battlecruiser, the "Pax Imperium" (which his subordinates wouldn't let him use on account of it wasn't big/safe enough... whatever), surrounded by a bodyguard of six hundred and sixty six topless Sisters of Battle. The coming of his vessel is heralded by a constant Astropathic barrage of space guitar rock opera.

Every once and a while, Macharius sees something that might pose a challenge for a Man (that's right, capital M) such as he: squashing a Hive Fleet, for example, with little more than a couple of ships, a Regiment of retired blind Guardsmen, and a Macharius super-heavy tank that can't go in reverse; or the six times he had to sail into the Eye of Terror to prevent Abaddon from launching the Thirteenth Black Crusade (this was before he decided to let Creed have a go at it... what a mistake that was!).

*GAME STATS*
A few years ago, blasphemous propagandists released game stats that purported to represent the greatness of Macharius. They were utterly false. Objective and sane-minded gamers should go with the following:

*Cost:* Special

*WS* 6, *BS* 6, *S* 4, *T* 4, *W* 3, *I* 4, *A* 4, *Ld* 10, *Sv* 3+
*Special Rules:*
*Counter-attack, Eternal Warrior, Fearless, Independent Character, Stubborn*

_"I Am Macharius, You Are Not":_ Macharius' sense of self-confidence is such that it translates into physical prowess that would shame a lesser man. This is reflected in his Strength and Toughness statistics, above. Furthermore, his close combat attacks ignore Invulnerable saves and add an additional D6 for armour penetration.

_"We Charge To Awesomeness":_ Macharius and any unit he is with are considered to have the Fearless and Furious Charge special rules. The Lord Commander Solar himself receives +1D6 attacks when he charges, instead of the usual +1. Furthermore, if the charge succeeds to an extent that, following resolution of close combat attacks, there are no adjacent enemy models remaining, Macharius and the unit he is with can move up to an additional 2D6 inches to charge any other nearby units. This process repeats itself until the unlikely event that they are no longer eligible to charge (due to not having killed all adjacent enemies) or, more likely, there being no more enemies within 2D6 inches. 

_"Consider Yourself Inspired":_ The greatness of/that is Macharius inspires all those whom he leads to such an extent that they excel at whatever it is he needs them to excel at the time being. You may choose one of the following special rules at the beginning of each turn--Counter-Attack, Move Through Cover, Preferred Enemy, Relentless, or Tank Hunters. Macharius and any unit he is with have that rule for the duration of the player turn.

_"Creed Is A Tactical Genius, But I Was One First":_ During deployment, choose a single infantry or vehicle unit in your army. That unit has the Scouts special rule for the duration of the battle.

_"Creed Is Not The Supreme Commander; I Am:"_ As per Lord Castellan Creed, but Macharius' unique (and redundant, given "We Charge To Awesomeness") order is called "Humanity Demands That You Grow A Pair!"

_Orbital Bombardment:_ As per a Space Marine Chapter Master, though the weapon delivering the barrage in question is actually one of those aboard the "Pax Imperium", his personal Mars-class Battlecruiser (instead of some second-rate Astartes tub).

*Wargear:*
_Solar Rod of the Victorious Macharius__:_ A six foot tall staff made of adamantine, gold, and platinum, topped off with a miniature bust of Macharius himself, winking and crowned by a laurel wreath. The Solar Rod is surrounded by energy fields capable of rending lesser individuals, creatures, and things that think they can stand up to the undisputed champion of Humanity. The Solar Rod of Macharius counts as a Master-Crafted Power Weapon that adds +1 to its wielder's Strength when resolving close combat attacks.

_Imperium-Maker__:_ A Master-Crafted Bolt Pistol of exquisite craftsmanship, plated in gold and silver. It is engraved with Macharius' ongoing diary entries, using complex Jokaero mini laser drills. An Adeptas Sororitas Canoness described the writings as "the lewdest examples of self-aggrandizement and boasting I have ever read", but thirty two Imperial Archivists hailed them as "Pretty much pure awesome".

_Namesake__:_ Macharius felt it was only fair that he wear the Imperial Guard medal named after himself. It counts as a Rosarius and provides a +4 Invulnerable save.

Macharius wears power armour made of a solid gold-adamantine alloy. Embossed upon its metallic musculature (which perfectly mimics that of the Lord Solar himself) is the Imperial Aquila astride a golden sun. His cloak is made of golden fleece, the hair of virgins, and the skin of Chaos Space Marines; stitched on its back is a Galactic map of all the worlds he has conquered, with the stars themselves represented by Eldar Soul-Stones.

*Note:* Macharius has never lost. He does not lose. Ever. And he never will. No cost is associated with this Character because if he is allowed in the scenario, it is understood by all players involved that Macharius will win. The players themselves are merely playing out the game to see HOW Macharius will win.


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## Lord Solar Macharius (Oct 5, 2010)

Being someone whose username is a variant on the Lord Solar's name, I approve of this! However, the "Tactical Genius" rule should be changed so that one unit is invisible.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Thank you for your approval, but "Invisible" implies that the Macharius' warriors would actually be looking to avoid combat. And that just won't do.


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

Horus. Hands down, really. Got half the primarchs to turn and got to the gates of Terra. Imagine all the other bitches he managed to turn as well, Imperial Guard, the assholes from Mars... etc. Good race really.


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## HorusReborn (Nov 19, 2008)

Phoebus said:


> No comparison, really.
> 
> One thousand worlds in only seven years, with perhaps only twenty-two (known) Regiments of the Imperial Guard, and no Primarchs, Astartes, or Emperor to help out?
> 
> ...


k::yahoo::goodpost::clapping:
that sir was the best answer hands down.. Horus sucked, he made it to Terra, big fuckin deal, he got his ass handed to him... and he LOST people are just voting for Horus because he's the icon of Chaos, not because they know anything about Macharius. This is a dick measuring contest, which i still think Macharius would win anyway... when the mention little Horus in the HH serious, they're talking about his dick.. it's little


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

HorusReborn said:


> k::yahoo::goodpost::clapping:
> that sir was the best answer hands down.. Horus sucked, he made it to Terra, big fuckin deal, he got his ass handed to him... and he LOST people are just voting for Horus because he's the icon of Chaos, not because they know anything about Macharius. This is a dick measuring contest, which i still think Macharius would win anyway... when the mention little Horus in the HH serious, they're talking about his dick.. it's little


No other force has even gotten close to the devastation Horus did to the Imperium. And he did it against a Great Crusade, Golden Age, AT THEIR HEIGHT Imperium! Have you gone mad are you insane!


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Hours had nine Traitor Legions, billions of soldiers, thousands of starships, the backing of Chaos, and the jump on his enemies. He failed. And if you want to take it a different direction, with millions of soldiers, hundreds of starships, and tens of thousands of Astartes... plus the Emperor. At no point did he match Macharius' seven-year record. :grin:

All hail the Lord Commander Solar! Honor to the Saint Macharius! :biggrin:


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## HorusReborn (Nov 19, 2008)

TRU3 CHAOS said:


> No other force has even gotten close to the devastation Horus did to the Imperium. And he did it against a Great Crusade, Golden Age, AT THEIR HEIGHT Imperium! Have you gone mad are you insane!


he took half of the Imperium and fought against it.. and STILL LOST. Hell Abaddon STILL loses with the aid of CHAOS. Horus was a punk, yeah he killed Sanguinius, but look, Horus still died in the end. I don't think you're well versed enough in Imperial Guard combat to really make a comparison of Astartes war and Guard warfare. Guard Warfare is WWI and WWII and Korea and Vietnam all wrapped up in a package called a planet with ships fighting to the death up above. Astartes war might be gruesome yes, but it's limited. Lord Solar Macharius was Boss man.. he commanded MEN, not demon infested punks... yep, time to :read: some Guard stuff dude


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## Sanguine Rain (Feb 12, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Hours had nine Traitor Legions, billions of soldiers, thousands of starships, the backing of Chaos, and the jump on his enemies. He failed. And if you want to take it a different direction, with millions of soldiers, hundreds of starships, and tens of thousands of Astartes... plus the Emperor. At no point did he match Macharius' seven-year record. :grin:
> 
> All hail the Lord Commander Solar! Honor to the Saint Macharius! :biggrin:


But the Emprah had just as many, and home turf advantage....ANYWHOOZLE i voted Horus cause he seems like a cool dude in a loose mood , and that he is a genetically enhanced super being that probably has a far more developed and tactically sound mind compared to the old guardsmen...so he'd fair better in a fight i think.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Macharius, because horus is a marine, and that automatically makes him a complete moron.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Macharius, though only because the fluff itself pretty much says so. And like Phoebus said, he did it without astartes. :victory:


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Pfft, it's like comparing a whiny brat (though a superpowered one) who convinced half of his brothers to gang up on daddy to a fanatical conqueror who ripped through planets like tissue paper and laughed at the notion of defeat.

No contest.


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

I heard that if you trace forwards the bloodlines of Arnie, Chuck Norris, Mr T and the Incredible Hulk that you end up at Lord Solar M.


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## Scholtae (Aug 16, 2010)

GrimzagGorwazza said:


> I heard that if you trace forwards the bloodlines of Arnie, Chuck Norris, Mr T and the Incredible Hulk that you end up at Lord Solar M.


My friend you missed out superman and bizzarley the Emperor (don't ask it's just true).


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I just read a little more about Lord Solar Marcharius from Lexicanum.

Does anyone else know what happened to him after?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

He supposedly died of a fever he contracted on a jungle planet that was one of his last conquests. He was taken back to the planet Macharia (named after him), from whence he began his Crusade. A ton of people lined the streets when his funeral procession passed, a million soldiers filed past his corpse, a hundred generals lay their swords on his tomb, and his second flagship ("Lord of Light") was put on permanent orbit over his burial world. So say the Imperial records, anyways.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Horus.

Horus was, allegedly, the greatest of the primarchs, no mortal man could ever win in a war against him. Of course this is just my personal belief, I would need to know a whole hell of a lot more about the various enemies that were fought and how the two would stack up. Of course, I believe that both the density of enemy combatants and the number of extremely advanced and well developed worlds would have been greater in Horus' day. That being said, I believe LSM was a fantastic character and probably the best human general the imperium has seen, but the fact still remains that he was human, nothing more, here as Horus was, for all intents and purposes, a demi-god of war.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Here's the thing, though. The topic is a battle of tactics and wits. And who would be the better commander.

I have no doubt that, if Macharius marched his armies against Horus' Expeditionary Fleet, the Lord Solar would lose. Skill, brilliance, whatever. The Luna Wolves would cut through his Regiments like a hot knife through butter.

What I'm talking about is that Macharius conquered an incredible sum of worlds and space... and he did so in a mere seven years--with no Astartes, no Primarchs, and no Emperor to back him up. Horus never was able to achieve the same record in seven years, despite having a full Legion, millions of soldiers, and the resources of the Mechanicus behind him.

On the other hand, however brilliant and creative Macharius was, I wonder whether natural intelligence such as his could ever match the gene-engineered genius of a Primarch. Sometimes I think not; other times I look at Kor Phaeron and Erebus manipulating those around them (including Primarchs) and think it may very well be possible to beat a superhuman at his own game.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Horus was fighting fully entrenched and highly advanced civilizations that were thousands of years old, and in the case of some their tech was much more advanced than even the imperium. The density of these civilizations was also much higher, or so I believe. The fact that Horus conquered less in the same time period doesn't necessarily mean jack. Besides, Horus was only personally responsible for the 63rd fleet which only consisted of the Luna Wolves legion, Byzant Janizars, a titan legion, and a small fleet of ships. Macharius had far more at his disposal. Now, it might be true that Horus's forces could deliver a much harder hit at any one point, but it would seem that macharius's force could engage more targets at any give time. That might account for it.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Whoa, whoa. 

Horus was personally responsible for the 63rd Expeditionary Fleet, but he also had other fleets under his command. Likewise, Macharius was in charge of seven battle groups that operated under his command, but in separate tactical theaters. None of which, by the way, included the awesome power that Titan Legions bring to the table.

Macharius' personal battle group, by the way, is described as only having four Guard Regiments of its own. Well, according to Lexicanum, anyways. The old Imperial Guard Codex confirms, however, that he had no more than 7 battlegroups/fleets under his command. Compare to that the fact that there were thousands of Expeditionary Fleets during the Great Crusade, or the fact that Horus commanded dozens of Companies in the Luna Wolves, not all of which would would have been operating in the same theatre as him.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Horus's fleet, the 63rd, only consisted of 16 vessels, 5 of which were mass transports. At best that is 2 systems at a time, maybe 3, so even though he had a legion it still would have been relatively concentrated, unless he planned on sending light cruisers out to conquer a system on its own. Which he could have done, but I wouldn't do it.

Even if we look at the entirety of what was under both of their commands, it would seem to suggest that Horus was still the greater. He *[removed by inquisitional mandate]* coordinated a galaxy wide campaign while still leading his own personal fleet. 

If we look at the sum total of both their conquests, the Lord Solar still doesn't match up. Yes, he *claimed* a thousand worlds, but many of those he simply blasted from orbit and many more were probably lifeless rocks, backwater pieces of crap(which were probably just glasses) or still out of commission from damage done back during the Great Crusade. 

Also, I can only find one instance of the Lord Solar running into a hyper advanced civ. How many did Horus run into? Ten? Twenty? Hundreds? That and we have things such as the Ullanor crusade where they encountered threats that were probably never encountered during the Macharian crusade. 

Really, I think the opposition was lighter for the Lord Solar.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I still don't see a disparity.

Horus had ultimate control over multiple Expeditionary Fleets, just as Macharius had control of seven. In fact, I'd argue that Horus had a whole lot more than that. We need only look at "Call of the Lion", from "Tales of Heresy", where just TWO of the Dark Angels' Chapters have seven Battle Barges between them. That Horus is only mentioned having "Vengeful Spirit" with him further emphasizes that he had more forces out there.

Furthermore, while Horus was coordinating his campaign, he had the resources of the entire Imperium. Macharius didn't.

As for the quality of the campaigns? It is implied, over and over in the first three books of the "Horus Heresy" series that Lupercal often had to fight against xenos species, even ones that didn't so much as have interstellar travel--arachnids, saurial creatures, etc. And we also know the Astartes did a whole lot of blowing worlds up themselves. We can't give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that Macharius simply took over dirt balls.

There's further evidence that what he conquered entailed developed systems. When the Macharian Heresy broke out, it took *one hundred* Chapters of Astartes *seventy years* to re-conquer what he lost. That's pretty much an entire Crusade-era Legion's worth of Astartes focusing on just what he conquered. If Macharius had just blown up a bunch of primitive societies and only the exhausted remnants of his armies were what was left to contend with (remember, the Heresy happens immediately after he died) the Chapters in question should have just been dealing with a clean-up detail.

The fact that they didn't indicates they weren't contending with backwater worlds.

I think Horus was great--don't get me wrong. But I think Macharius that combination of genius and nigh-insanity that Alexander the Great (after whom he is based) threw into his strategy and conquests. Horus was a genius himself, but he may very well have been more conventional.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> There's further evidence that what he conquered entailed developed systems. When the Macharian Heresy broke out, it took *one hundred* Chapters of Astartes *seventy years* to re-conquer what he lost. That's pretty much an entire Crusade-era Legion's worth of Astartes focusing on just what he conquered. If Macharius had just blown up a bunch of primitive societies and only the exhausted remnants of his armies were what was left to contend with (remember, the Heresy happens immediately after he died) the Chapters in question should have just been dealing with a clean-up detail.


*Elements* of 100 chapters. This can mean anything from 100k marines to 10000 or below. However, lets just say that it was around 50,000 marines. Considering that that is actually a very small number I would think that it would be understandable for such a small force to reconquer such a large area in such a time.

Now, to the Macharian Heresy in general. I really can't say much about it sense I really have no info on it, but it seems that worlds he left behind were unstable. For the most part, the worlds that the Warmasters forces left were relatively stable.

Also, I don't see how the time it took for a relatively small task group to take back such a huge area would provide any indication of the enemies that Macharias fought. If they fought they would have been decimated and their forces slaughtered. It would seem tat the only force left capable of fighting would be that of Macharias.


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

Macharius.

He's heavily 'homaged' from 'the lion of Macedon' (Alexander the great).

Horus is simply homaged from Lucifer (the brightest one who fell the furthest), who is a made-up character to begin with.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

If we sat them down and made them both play Total War-Macharius would annhilate. Oh what's that Horus, you've used all you're super uber units in one strike to cut off the snake's head (yes, that was his one tactic), oh well that was a decoy-eat men at arms!


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> *Elements* of 100 chapters. This can mean anything from 100k marines to 10000 or below.


Where did you see that? I'm going off of the 5th edition IG Codex, the old Imperial Guard Codex, and the 40k core rulebook. Everything I have ever seen flat out states one hundred Chapters and seventy years. The only place I'm aware of that says "elements" of 100 Chapters is Lexicanum, which cites the core rulebook--which in turn states one hundred Chapters... not elements of them.



> However, lets just say that it was around 50,000 marines. Considering that that is actually a very small number I would think that it would be understandable for such a small force to reconquer such a large area in such a time.


That's... a huge number of Space Marines. All the same, given the sources, we have every reason to assume anywhere from 50,000 to even 100,000 or more (including supernumeraries, officers, etc.) Astartes--and their Chapter Fleets.



> Now, to the Macharian Heresy in general. I really can't say much about it sense I really have no info on it, but it seems that worlds he left behind were unstable. For the most part, the worlds that the Warmasters forces left were relatively stable.


That's the other thing. When you read the fluff on Macharius, the worlds he conquered were under iron dominion. They didn't rebel--not on their own, at least. It was his Generals who fell into bickering and infighting over who was going to succeed Macharius after he died. The systems of the conquered territories followed those Generals.



> Also, I don't see how the time it took for a relatively small task group to take back such a huge area would provide any indication of the enemies that Macharias fought. If they fought they would have been decimated and their forces slaughtered. It would seem tat the only force left capable of fighting would be that of Macharias.


It's part and parcel of Macharius aping the concept of Alexander. That they were able to do what they did is a testament to Macharius' genius. That it took so long for so many of the Emperor's finest to do what they did is also indicative of the monumental scale of what that man accomplished. The IG Codex itself says "the Heresy lasted almost seventy years, a testament to the astonishing speed and wide extent of the Lord Solar's original conquests."


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

50,000, while an insane amount of marines, is still only 50,000 bodies for close to a thousand worlds. 

Read the elements part on Lexi which honestly makes more sense really. I don't see the imperium leaving that many systems devoid of the marines that were responsible for them. That would have been a huge % of the imperiums marines.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

The only thing I would say is that with the Imperial Guard, a Warmaster is only as good as the guys on the ground. You can have the best strategy in the world but unless you have the right Generals you're buggered. So when talk about Macharius we also have to think about force disposition. Of course you could present the counter argument that as long as you know each force strengths then you know where to apply them, and that in some ways makes Macharius the better tactician.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Gromrir Silverblade said:


> If we sat them down and made them both play Total War-Macharius would annhilate. Oh what's that Horus, you've used all you're super uber units in one strike to cut off the snake's head (yes, that was his one tactic), oh well that was a decoy-eat men at arms!


Firstly that was his *prefered* tactic, in no way was it his only tactic. Not to mention that in 40k (and especially when dealing with the Guard) it is increadibly easy to determine who the actual head is. Hmm the guy over there in golden armour bellowing orders whilst standing heroically beside a flag... yah kill him first.



Phoebus said:


> That's the other thing. When you read the fluff on Macharius, the worlds he conquered were under iron dominion. They didn't rebel--not on their own, at least. It was his Generals who fell into bickering and infighting over who was going to succeed Macharius after he died. The systems of the conquered territories followed those Generals.


Macharius depended on his personal charisma and insperational presence to bind his me together. This makes his armies increadibly vulnerable to breaking down due to moral issues if Macharius is killed (or even just removed from direct contact with his men). It is not all that hard to kill one man. 

Now admittedly the same can be said for Horus, the difference here being that Horus was the chosen son of the God-Emperor and not exactly a push-over in a fight. 

Macharius may have conquered more in less time. But Horus' campaign lasted for over 200 years and forged the Imperium. He had help (lots of it, don't get me wrong) but he also had a hell of a lot more on his plate. And then once he had forged the Imperium he destroyed it. It didn't crumble in his wake like Macharius' empire, Horus tore it down personnally. The clean-up lasted a hell of a lot longer than 70 years (I think it even lasted longer than 200 years) and has completely altered the way the Imperium wages war. 

At the end of the day. Macharius is a brilliant and gifted human tactiction. Horus is the Chosen Son of God and a demi-god built purely for war. There is and should be no contest between the two.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

The Lexicanum article is not properly citing its sources, though. They simply come up with the "elements of" part out of thin air. The 40k core rulebook clearly states Chapters, period.

As for Astartes availability, it's not as if every Chapter is based on a planet. Plenty are fleet-based, Crusading, or otherwise tasked with a mission that keeps them mobile.

Fact of the matter is, any way you cut it, 50-100,000 Astartes would have every bit the same firepower as Macharius' battle-groups, if not more. Even if you don't go with the propaganda figure of one Space Marine being worth 100 Guardsmen, the fact remains that the Guard would need to put exponentially more Guardsmen in one place to match the efforts of an Astartes. When it comes to fleet-based firepower, the same holds true. Even if you use an absolutely minimal figure of one Battle-Barge and 3-4 Strike Cruisers per Chapter (not to mention escort vessels), that's still an incredible fleet... and almost certainly far beyond what Macharius had in at his command.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> As for Astartes availability, it's not as if every Chapter is based on a planet. Plenty are fleet-based, Crusading, or otherwise tasked with a mission that keeps them mobile.
> It really doesn't matter; every chapter they pulled to fight there would have been one chapter that wasn't defending systems and therefore wasn't protecting imperial citizens. I very much doubt that they would have pulled 10% of their available marines and put them to this one effort.
> 
> 
> ...


See the colored text.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Macharius may have conquered more in less time. But Horus' campaign lasted for over 200 years and forged the Imperium.


That's all well and good, but when we compare the two we need to compare them on the basis of what they achieved. And at no point did Horus achieve as much in so short an amount of time, and with so few (comparatively speaking!) resources.

Again, Horus was amazing--but Primarchs aren't perfect. They can be arrogant, stubborn, they might often lack insight or patience, and they can definitely be manipulated by lesser creatures. That they live for centuries and are superhuman does not make them inherently superior in every way.

We can talk about what Horus had on his plate, but this still doesn't address the fact that when he only had the Luna Wolves and his Expeditionary Fleets under his command (pre-Warmaster era) he still didn't accomplish as much as Macharius did.



> At the end of the day. Macharius is a brilliant and gifted human tactiction. Horus is the Chosen Son of God and a demi-god built purely for war. There is and should be no contest between the two.


Should not, perhaps. Is, on the other hand? I think so. 




gen.ahab said:


> Originally Posted by Phoebus
> It really doesn't matter; every chapter they pulled to fight there would have been one chapter that wasn't defending systems and therefore wasn't protecting imperial citizens. I very much doubt that they would have pulled 10% of their available marines and put them to this one effort.


I have to disagree with your view of what role the Space Marines serve. The Adeptus Astartes are the Imperium's pre-eminent shock troops. They are not a static defense force. Far from being used to defend space, systems, etc., on a standard basis, we can see that such roles are the exception rather than the rule. See, for example, the Adeptus Praeses, who are special specifically because they have been assigned space to guard. Or the Iron Snakes of Ithaka, who are assigned the Reef Stars.

Most of the Astartes don't fall under this category, though. They are sent to address a variety of issues that threaten the Imperium: worlds going renegade, Chaos warbands invading, Tau expansion elements, Tyranids, etc. All of these require Astartes to take off from wherever they happen to be to go bash heads in; they potentially leave varying amounts of space undefended by Astartes, but it doesn't matter--because that wasn't their job to begin with. That's the job of the PDF, and of the Guard. The only difference between the Macharian Heresy and these more typical problems is one of *scope.*



> I am not saying that it couldn't deliver a greater punch, but I am saying that 50,000 men, even if they are worth 100 normal men, are still only 50,000 bodies and you can only take on so much at any given point. I am not going to go into comparing fleets since I have no idea what they had.


Astartes warfare is not simply about 50-100,000 men and how much ground you can occupy at any one point. We're talking about the firepower that dozens, if not hundreds of planet-crushing spacecraft can project against their opposition.

If you divided that awesome force to seven separate battle groups of 7-14,000 Astartes each, with a minimum of seven Battle-Barges, 20-30 Strike Cruisers, and just as many escort vessels _per fleet,_ the excuse of there just not being enough of them to keep pace with Macharius' conquests falls flat. Such forces would be able to demolish civilizations overnight. And we know that Macharius did just that often enough (pounding them into surrender, that is).

Again, that's why the 5E IG Codex states that the length of time it took the Astartes to re-pacify his region is a testament to his greatness--as opposed to a testament of Astartes numbers being a hindrance to a successful campaign.

Cheers,
P.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> That's all well and good, but when we compare the two we need to compare them on the basis of what they achieved.
> 
> Horus conquered nearly an entire galaxy, and then brought the empire he helped create to its knees in close to a decade. Personally, I would say that accomplishment far outweighs conquering part of a segmentum only to have to go to utter crap the moment he died.
> 
> ...


Same as last time. Sorry, to lazy to break it up into individual quoted segments.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Horus conquered nearly an entire galaxy, ...


No, Horus and seventeen other Primarchs, to include countless other fleets and billions of Guardsmen, to say nothing of the Titan Legions of Mechanicus and thousands of starships, conquered the Galaxy under the direction of the Emperor. Horus was made Warmaster just *two years and four months before the Heresy began* (see "Legion"). His time as supreme commander was eminently brief. If we wish for a fair comparison, we need to judge him for his deeds as an "independent" commander (that is, as Primarch of the Luna Wolves and commander of all their attached assets).



> ... and then brought the empire he helped create to its knees in close to a decade.


Again, with the help of eight other Primarchs, all the advantages that Chaos Undivided could provide (manipulating two Legions, corrupting at least one other Primarch and Legion to his side, blocking communications, slowing travel, etc.), the assistance of half of the Mechanicus (and their efforts to deprive from the Imperium its most powerful source of wargear), billions of soldiers, and thousands of starships.



> Personally, I would say that accomplishment far outweighs conquering part of a segmentum only to have to go to utter crap the moment he died.


Criticizing Macharius' record for the fact that he died when he did is like criticizing Alexander's for the same. It does nothing to refute the importance of Macharius' conquests. If you want to go that route, we would do well to remember "Fallen Angels", wherein the Lion reveals that, ...

_"News of the rebellion [spread] like a cancer through the sector and beyond, ... re-igniting old tensions and territorial ambitions. Some governors ... openly declared for Horus, while others [saw] the rebellion as an opportunity to build petty empires of their own. In the short space of just two and a half months, Imperial authority in the Ultima Segmentum [was] severely compromised, and dissent ... spread into Segmentum Solar as well.’"_

Again, Horus on his own only conquered part of a Segmentum as well, but in just under two centuries, as opposed to five-seven years, and with far more resources and assistance. But if we go by the standard you propose, his conquests can also be described as suspect, since they as well "went to crap" when political instability reared her ugly head.

Bottom line, I can't emphasize that it took seventy years for one hundred Chapters to re-capture an empire that had fragmented into half a dozen rival principalities. It goes to show the scope, scale, and importance of what Macharius accomplished. If it had been a matter of just a half dozen petty, primitive realms, they would have been steamrolled.



> Did I ever say how they defended the imperial citizens? The best defense is a good offense, no?


No, but you specifically brought up their leaving space undefended as a reason for why one hundred Chapters would not have been sent to quell the Macharian Heresy. Statically defending space and planets, however, is simply not the Astartes mission--at least not for the overwhelming majority of their Chapters.



> Yes, it is an issue of ground. You sack a city and move on. Then what? Well, if you have not left men there than the populous will once more become unruly and you will have to deal with it on the way back.... again.


No offense, but that's a stereotype, and a misconceived one at that. Macharius left no doubt as to the finality of his conquest, and this showed in the lack or rebellion when his forces moved on. You have to remember that, just as was the case with Alexander's realm after his death, _it wasn't the locals that caused the Macharian Heresy._ It was his own generals. Just as with Alexander, the conquered planets themselves, and their societies, sat quietly. Only when the post-Macharian generals drafted them to man their armies and fight their Heresy did they rise up.

If the psychological impact the Astartes (and the Imperium in general) had on those they fought were a non-issue, the Imperium simply would not have made it this long.



> That is once again assuming that 100 whole chapters were deployed, which I very much doubt.


You're entitled to your doubts, but the fact remains that every source on the matter says that one hundred Chapters were deployed. 



> Same as last time. Sorry, to lazy to break it up into individual quoted segments.


You bastard!!!

Just kidding, of course! :biggrin:

Cheers,
P.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> No, Horus and seventeen other Primarchs, to include countless other fleets and billions of Guardsmen, to say nothing of the Titan Legions of Mechanicus and thousands of starships, conquered the Galaxy under the direction of the Emperor. Horus was made Warmaster just *two years and four months before the Heresy began* (see "Legion"). His time as supreme commander was eminently brief. If we wish for a fair comparison, we need to judge him for his deeds as an "independent" commander (that is, as Primarch of the Luna Wolves and commander of all their attached assets).
> 
> Give you that one.
> 
> ...


I know, but it is easier.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Just popping in, there's roughly 1000 chapters out there. 100 chapters would be 10%. A fair estimate of 40-50k marines would probably be somewhere around 5-6% (as most chapters seem to linger closer to 880-950 marines as opposed to the full 1000, yet we have some chapters like the Black Templars and Space Wolves with more than 1000 Marines. I assume that the latter are the minority, though).


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> And Macharius conquered part of paficica with 6 other battlegroups. Whats your point? Horus was facing armies comparable to his strength


Well, you have my point. 

... It's that Macharius conquered a whole lot more than Horus, with a whole lot less, in a whole lot less time.



> Did I? I don't believe I did. I criticized his choice of generals and his failure to leave a stable empire.


But you haven't offered an argument as to how that's his fault. His conquered realms didn't rebel. If anything, they were too faithful to the generals who ostensibly carried the authority he had granted them.

I mean, if we're going to criticize Macharius for what his generals did after he died, then we can criticize anyone without basis. Clearly the Emperor's conquests lose much of their galactic-level luster since 50% of his own sons betrayed him. But that doesn't make sense, does it? Before the Traitor Primarchs went bad, their record was exemplary (well, for the most part--I'm looking at you, Lorgar!). Before Macharius died, his generals were instrumental in his victories.



> I don't really count the heresy and all it caused since it was caused by Horus and was intended.


Cool. So we're agreed that we're focusing on the 200 years prior to it. 



> This really comes down to my refusal to believe that the full might of those 100 were brought to bare and your belief that there were 100k marines there clashing.


OK, but what is the basis for your refusal/argument? Mine is that looking at the 40k core rulebook's timeline, where the authors overwhelmingly qualify when portions of a Chapter are doing something as opposed to when Chapters (as in full forces) are doing something (or have something done to them).

Also, let me clarify. I'm not arguing that all 100 Chapters were Crusading or fleet-based. In that sense, I'm not arguing that each of those Chapters simply packed everything up and left--I know they wouldn't be able to simply abandon their planets/Fortress Monasteries/headquarters. Similarly, I understand that some Chapters would be understrength. It's why I keep saying 50-100,000 Astartes--because a full 100 Chapters would be closer to 110-120,000 (Codex fighting strength for Tactical and Reserve Companies, plus HQ, supernumeraries, Scouts, pilots, etc.) Astartes.

I don't, in that sense, consider a token force of supernumeraries, Scouts, and some Reserve Company Astartes staying back to be taking away from the Chapter's "full force". Which, again, is why I keep aiming for something between 50-100,000 Astartes. 



> Never said it was the locals.


Then I would say it's a moot argument. See above.



> 70 years is a long, long time. People have short memories, it wouldn't think it unreasonable for rebellious thought to have become wide spread on some of the reconquered worlds.


You mean seven years, I'm sure. Since that's how much time passed between the first world being conquered and Macharius dying. :grin:



> NO force since the heresy, that I know of, has consisted of 100 FULL chapters. That would be 100% of the chapters deployed fielding 100% of their units. I just don't see it happening.


10%. And if you think that's crazy, try this:



> From the 40k Core Rulebook, pg. 125:
> *321.M37 THE ABYSSAL CRUSADE*
> The judgement of Saint Basilius. Thirty Space Marine Chapters are found wanting. The guilty embark upon a Crusade into the Eye of Terror, to purge those worlds stolen by the birth of the Dark Prince.


That's _a suicide mission._ For potentially *over thirty thousand Astartes*--the whole lot of them.

So, yeah. If the greatest general since the Great Crusade just re-captured for you 1,000 worlds in 5-7 years, re-kindled the imagination and fervor of Humanity, etc., and then all of a sudden his flunkies decide THEY want to be king? I'm pretty sure the High Lords of Terra are just nuts enough to lay down the smackdown on them that way. :biggrin:

Cheers,
P.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Well, you have my point.
> 
> ... It's that Macharius conquered a whole lot more than Horus, with a whole lot less, in a whole lot less time.
> 
> ...


Gobldigooker.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Until I know what he faced, it seems that even the most advanced enemy was no where near a match for his forces.


One example that we have is "the fortified world of Kallastin", which apparently had fortifications/walls made out of _iron_. Another mention we get from the original Macharius IG bio piece is that many of the worlds he conquered were Imperial ones that had simply gone rogue. Their technology would thus be nothing to scoff at. Worlds that had developed their own sciences "and created many new and wondrous machines" are also cited. Adantris Five's "hyper-technology kept the Imperium at bay for two years". Still others were ruled by xenos, such as Orks--no easy victims there, either.



> Personally it seems as though Horus had a WEEE bit more competition and he did do a great deal in near that amount of time.


I'm assuming you're going off of the Heresy, because, given what we see in the first "Horus Heresy" novels, I'd disagree*.

If we are talking about the Heresy, I don't see how you concede the advantages Horus enjoyed under the Emperor but are not willing to ignore the help Horus had against the Imperium. Frankly, without Chaos as a player, Horus would never have even gotten anywhere on his Heresy.

* We have evidence of murderous arachnids, warlike saurials who are defeated because they only fight wars in specialized arenas (and the Luna Wolves don't feel like obliging), a human empire that is absolutely no match for the Astartes, and an "advanced" society whose greatest weapons are being able to field certain units with power armour and boltguns.



> Why would I if I never blamed him for it!? I was talking about his less-then-loyal-to-the-emperor underlings.


Uhm, you said you criticized his choice of generals and his failure to leave a stable empire. That amounts to blaming him, by pretty much any definition of the word.  At the end of the day, though, you have to either praise or criticize the man for what he did while he lived. You can't blame him on his generals when all of them were fastidiously loyal while he was alive. Again, by that criteria, the Emperor is the biggest loser of all--even though he is, in fact, the greatest man to have ever lived (in terms of scope, scale, power, etc.).



> No.... wiat, what did I say? I believe I was saying that I wasn't counting the heresy thing against Horus because it was his plan.


No, it wasn't. It was Lorgar's plan, and it took devious--and long both in planning and execution--manipulations to get Horus to where they wanted him.



> % of chapters involved apparently using such a high % of their forces. Although I believe I was the first one who put forth the 50k number for troops... so it seems we really haven't been disagreeing.


We kind of are, since I offer 50,000 as an absolutely low-ball estimate. But, again, for either of us to offer a plausible argument, it's gotta have some basis on the fluff. I've got a calendar saying they did this. And that they did even crazier stuff. :grin:



> I don't have anything to say to this, but tradition dictates there he magenta text below it.


I'm not sure what you're getting at here.



> You mean seven years, I'm sure. Since that's how much time passed between the first world being conquered and Macharius dying.


Seven years. That's how long. Macharius started from a world renamed to Macharia, conquered a thousand worlds in 5-7 years, and, right after his final conquest, returned back to Macharia. By the time he got back, he was dead.



> I was talking about the Spass mahreens.


Sometimes, I feel like we're two ships passing by each other at night, unnoticed. 

Either way, man, I don't see how that argument flies. You're basing this purely on assumption, when it's consistently shown that the psychological effect of the Astartes is religious in scale and scope even though (or perhaps because) most people will never see them. But now we're going to argue that people who didn't just witness the Emperor's Angels... but got their asses pummeled by them... are going to have a memory lapse inside of living memory of it happening? It just goes totally against human psychology, man.



> That is stupid, would someone retcon this? This is just dumb.


Retcon it? It's from the newest core rulebook! Besides, the insanity of Mankind and the effect it has on the society of the Imperium is an old theme in 40k. Could I ask you to re-read pgs 101-131 of the newest CRB and the passages in the bottom of the introductory, illustrated pages of the last edition's CRB? They go right in line with the kind of mentality that brings about the Judgement of Saint Basilius. If you have issues with this, man, I question whether you're involved with the right hobby. :grin:

(just kidding!)



> Apposed to a giant dick who has poking you with a stick constantly for around 10,000 years. Talking about the 13th black crusade.


I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but if I understand you correctly, the two concepts are not mutually exclusive. It had been over seven hundred years since Abaddon's last Black Crusade. The 12th would not occur until almost a hundred years after the Macharian Crusade, and the 13th would come about for more than 800 after that. Defense was not the issue, and attacking the Eye of Terror is suicide. Hence why only punished Chapters go to the Eye of Terror.

Oh, and here's more proof to show that Horus conquered nowhere near what Macharius did. The latest Core Rulebook, under the Imperial Guard fluff section, shows that the realm Macharius operated in/brought under control is roughly a little less than 50% of Segmentum Pacificus. By contrast, check out "False Gods":

_"It had been six decades since Loken had last set foot on Davin, though back then it had been known as Sixty-Three Eight, *being the eighth world* brought into compliance by the 63rd Expeditionary force."_

What world does Horus conquer at the beginning of "Horus Rising" with his 63rd Expeditionary Fleet, just a year or two before the Heresy? Drumroll, please... *Sixty-Three Nineteen.* Sixty years, eleven worlds brought under compliance. Macharius was knocking out an average of twenty a year with his single battle group alone.

Here's some crazy math. According to "Horus Rising", there were 4,287 primary expedition fleets right after Ullanor. Let's pretend that each and every one of those fleets was given to a Primarch. Horus would thus have 238 fleets of his own--each with enough vessels and armies to destroy a planet. Given his cited average of conquest over that sixty year span, at the height of the Imperium's power Horus would have conquered 305 measly planets in the same seven year period as Macharius.

Cheers,
P.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> One example that we have is "the fortified world of Kallastin", which apparently had fortifications/walls made out of _iron_. Another mention we get from the original Macharius IG bio piece is that many of the worlds he conquered were Imperial ones that had simply gone rogue. Their technology would thus be nothing to scoff at. Worlds that had developed their own sciences "and created many new and wondrous machines" are also cited. Adantris Five's "hyper-technology kept the Imperium at bay for two years". Still others were ruled by xenos, such as Orks--no easy victims there, either.
> 
> Yes, until they launched a comet at it. Orks are all well and good, but I doubt he ever encountered anything like that which was fought during the Ulanor crusade.
> 
> ...


I am going to go take a nap now.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Yes, until they launched a comet at it.


But how is that different from a fleet of Astartes warships burning a planet to extinction?



> Orks are all well and good, but I doubt he ever encountered anything like that which was fought during the Ulanor crusade.


I also doubt he had his resources. Or the Emperor fighting by his side (and probably leading the whole damn thing).



> His generals were to blame for the empire crumbling, I wasn't blaming him because his citizens went with him.


Exactly. 



> No, it was the gods plan if you look at it that way. I am talking about the military affairs.


Yup. And he wouldn't have gone anywhere without Chaos. Without Chaos, all his strategic advantages (two Loyal Legions tearing each other apart, 3-4 other Primarchs being corrupted to the same side as him, communications blocked and travel slowed, the insidious psychic corruption that brought tons of armies over to him, etc., etc.) would have been nullified. Assuming it was just Horus and his genius deciding to betray the Emperor, he never would have gotten past Isstvan V. At best, he would have nuked Isstvan III and purged his own Legions.



> If I wasn't so lazy, I would try and find something that noted a number of chapters taking part in something, but not applying full chapter strengths.


I almost did that, but I got lazy too! :biggrin:

Honestly, though, if you look at the newest Core Rulebook's timeline, the majority of the date listings specify when it's just a portion of a Chapter as opposed to the whole force.



> 70 years? Well, yes I suppose.... what is the average life span of a hiveworlder? If it is an backwater than the life span is probably close to 40.


Kind of irrelevant when you consider that Japan still has a pacifist constitution, and does so because of events inflicted on it about 66 years ago, right?



> I make plastic toys go pew pew, what could be better? I take issue with at least 90% of what the imperium does since much of it seems like counterproductive idiocy.


Ideological and religion-driven lunacy I think describes it better. It doesn't make sense because the accepted order of things places minimal (if any) value to human life and applauds tyrants, megalomaniacs, mass-murderers, and psychopaths who take appalling measures to "protect" Humanity.



> What now? No, I was saying that not even that many chapters took place in the 13th black, something that seems more pressing to me.


Ah, that makes sense. Well, consider this, though. The Macharian Heresy involved half a Segmentum being lost. Again. And it was also something that the Imperium was tracking and had the time and resources to respond to.

Abaddon's Crusades, on the other hand, are rarely advertised events. The Imperium depends on their fortress worlds, billions upon billions of its best Guard units, thousands of starships, and, yes, about twenty Chapters to safe guard the access points the Eye of Terror has to the rest of the Galaxy. In a Galaxy where interstellar travel can take months, years, or can throw people into completely different eras, the better part of twenty-seven Chapters at a moment's notice isn't that bad...

Anywho, all that wasn't just to keep this going. I just wanted to share some info since we were on about this subject for so long. Nice debating/arguing/shaking fists with you. 



> I am going to go take a nap now.


Same here! :biggrin:

Cheers,
P.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> But how is that different from a fleet of Astartes warships burning a planet to extinction?
> 
> Kind of irrelevant when you consider that Japan still has a pacifist constitution, and does so because of events inflicted on it about 66 years ago, right?


Didn't say it was, and honestly it is more resourceful.

Yeah, but then again we have been an ever present reminder of that. We didn't simply stop, bring their civilization to its knees in a matter of months, and then disappear for 70 years.:laugh:

(never been good with naps)

(Slaps self) No, stop arguing, stop it.


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