# Tau Marines?



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Another thread got me thinking about this, a long with the orc/tyranid hybrid army. Could or would a Space Marine chapter ever consider or join the Tau? The ideal behind them I would of thought would appeal to some chapters, if marines can turn traitor and join chaos they could surely join the Tau couldn't they?


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## CattleBruiser (Sep 3, 2011)

Logically I don't see why they couldn't, Marines turn from the emperor all the time, and imperial guard join tau. Why wouldn't a marine chapter turn to the Greater Good.

Now, i doubt that GW would ever have a chapter join the greater good simply because marines are GW's poster boys and they'll proably say something like: their hearts and souls are so strong and powerful that only the most foul of gods can turn them from the emperor's light.


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

I think that the Tau would find marines distasteful. They would probably accept them as allies but I cannot see things going well for them in the long run. The Tau seem to me to have a pretty stringent control over the races they "Ally" with and the hierarchy system that would put marines at the very bottom underneath Tau would rub some nerves in my opinion. Especially seeing as these marines left the imperium, they would not appreciate bowing as much I feel. It takes a certain type of marine to leave the Emperor's light, and these particular marines might not take kindly to worshipping the greater good and being placed below the ethereals and such. Don't get me wrong it is certainly possible, just unlikely that a marine would chose from working for one dictatorial regime to another. Chaos or going renegade grants the marines more power, they have the potential to be the big boss, the head honcho, to have no one else boss them around. Joining Tau does not grant this. So I feel that it would be unlikely. 

Besides, the Tau would look down on space marines as barbaric for how much close quarters fighting they do and how effective they are at it. Just the whole society of it as well. Accepting mere humans such as inquisitors as your master? That is something Marines have been taught to do their entire life and even that pisses them off. Letting some xeno scum direct you into a suicide mission where thirty nine of your battle brothers die rescuing four fire warriors from behind enemy lines? That might get some anger up. 

I don't know I guess it is theoretically possible but I just don't see it.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Chaos is by far more rewarding, enticing and more often than not chapters fall due to the malign influences of a demon, they don't just cast away their oaths, it's a timely and costly procedure for the demons, for instance the soul drinkers chapter were guided by tzeentch for 4000 years and pretty much all of those years they were still in everyone's and their own eyes loyal and when space marines break their oaths they just want independence, freedom not subservience.


It could be said that space marines have a natural disposition towards chaos, their gene fathers were all to certain extents corrupted/mutated by chaos. 
Therefore it could be said that betraying the emperor is encoded within their very genes, just as much as serving him is, with it also comes far greater freedom, they can raid kill, betray...whatever they want

The Tau are relatively small time players, they generally hate close combat something space marines can't do without, they would also be restricted in a sense, for instance with the tau they would only be able to fight in a relatively small area of space because the tau don't control much, the marines wouldn't want to follow the aliens customs either, I don't see space marines bowing down to another species.

Furthermore chaos has a way of making everything the traitors do as fair, just and natural to the traitors, for instance in the blood angels omnibus they make Rafens brother seem anglelic to the traitors, but those that saw him for what he was saw him as a disgusting perversion of what an angel looks like, the eye of terror also ensures that they are always out of arms reach of any space marine chapters that wish to destroy them.

This might seem obvious, but well they are alien, the warp and it's powers all nurture what is already in a space marine, the desire for power, rage, the want of perfection, or the ability to cheat death, it all stems from within, it also helps that not only are there other traitor space marines but even traitor primarchs.

Just my opinion


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Space Marines are for the most part far too xenophobic to ally with Tau. Moreover, they're not as "persuasive" as Chaos - if a Chapter turns renegade, it'll go independent rather than turn to xenos scum and be a sub-serviant race.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I can sorta see it working.

The Space Marines can remain true to the Emperor, but believe the current Imperium's system isn't faithful to the idea of the Emperor's Imperium. Basically the current Imperium is stagnant and is not in the best interest of humanity.

Some marines could believe allying with the Tau or adopting their system may better serve humanity.

I think a more humanitarian Chapter could fall back on this reasoning, maybe.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree with Hailene, why not have a chapter ally with the tau? Their philosophy might appeal to more softhearted chapters. The philosophy of the tau could very well work for a war weary chapter and even more so for one that was outside of the Imperium's rule but not yet in the thrall of chaos. I kinda like the idea really, always had a soft spot in my heart for the greater good though.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

hailene said:


> The Space Marines can remain true to the Emperor, but believe the current Imperium's system isn't faithful to the idea of the Emperor's Imperium. Basically the current Imperium is stagnant and is not in the best interest of humanity.


The main problem I see with this is the fact that the Emperor's vision has always been to free mankind of the predations of the alien. The Emperor set out on his Great Crusade because he knew that only through violence (on an epic scale) could mankind make its destiny manifest. The idea that Space Marines, the very tool the Emperor crafted to free mankind, would seek to enslave it to a xenos empire (and a very minor one at that) is unlikely to say the least. 

Marine's are built to destroy the enemies of mankind. Chaos embraces the former (destruction) and the eventual cost of the latter (as turning on humans generally occurs pretty late in a Chapters fall). Turning to the Tau on the other hand would simply loose the second part with no gain in power.

Chaos offers freedom and power. The Tau have nothing to offer but slavery and weakness. 



> I think a more humanitarian Chapter could fall back on this reasoning, maybe.


Humanitarian: A person who seeks to promote *human* welfare. 

Certainly a Chapter might disagree with how the Imperium chooses to run things, viewing them as too harsh and brutal. Such a Chapter might actively fight the Imperium in an attempt to help a small section of humanity to live better lives. However slavery to the Tau is not preferable to slavery to other humans. Humans can be made to understand the plight of each other, they can be convinced to change, because at heart they are the same as their prisoners. The Tau are not, they are not human, their interests are not human. Anyone who believes that the Tau have humanities best interest at heart (and not their own, for they are not compatible) is a fool and deserving of the attentions of the Inquisition.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> The main problem I see with this is the fact that the Emperor's vision has always been to free mankind of the predations of the alien. The Emperor set out on his Great Crusade because he knew that only through violence (on an epic scale) could mankind make its destiny manifest. The idea that Space Marines, the very tool the Emperor crafted to free mankind, would seek to enslave it to a xenos empire (and a very minor one at that) is unlikely to say the least.


It's about weighing the relative importance you put on His vision. Sure, suffer not the alien to live, but at what cost?

You have to balance one's ideology and reality. The galaxy is a very different place from when the Emperor walked it, and to some marines, some compromises may be more acceptable than others.


MEQinc said:


> Marine's are built to destroy the enemies of mankind. Chaos embraces the former (destruction) and the eventual cost of the latter (as turning on humans generally occurs pretty late in a Chapters fall). Turning to the Tau on the other hand would simply loose the second part with no gain in power.
> 
> Chaos offers freedom and power. The Tau have nothing to offer but slavery and weakness.


You're painting some very broad strokes. Yes, some marines live for glory or honor or reputation. Others live to protect humanity.

The Salamanders and Lamanters are both Chapters that value human life over all else, even tactical soundess. 


MEQinc said:


> Humanitarian: A person who seeks to promote *human* welfare.
> 
> Certainly a Chapter might disagree with how the Imperium chooses to run things, viewing them as too harsh and brutal. Such a Chapter might actively fight the Imperium in an attempt to help a small section of humanity to live better lives. However slavery to the Tau is not preferable to slavery to other humans*. Humans can be made to understand the plight of each other, they can be convinced to change, because at heart they are the same as their prisoners.* The Tau are not, they are not human, their interests are not human. Anyone who believes that the Tau have humanities best interest at heart (and not their own, for they are not compatible) is a fool and deserving of the attentions of the Inquisition.


I'll be first to say that the Tau are not "good guys". They're looking out for number 1--other Tau. So don't get me wrong about that, because I believe that Tau are for Tau.

That being said, they do have a level of compassion that the Imperium doesn't generally bother to have.

Their overall outlook is not needlessly wasteful. They wouldn't throw 100 million humans into an Ork invasion because it was expedient. Nor would they shirk from it if needed.

A cursory glance at history would find the bolded part pretty hilarious. The majority of written history has had slavery in one form or another. It's a relatively new trend that most of the world doesn't have slavery.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

hailene said:


> You have to balance one's ideology and reality. The galaxy is a very different place from when the Emperor walked it, and to some marines, some compromises may be more acceptable than others.


The galaxy isn't that different. Certainly not in this case. The Tau are still xenos who seek to yoke humanity to their will. Sure, they can be reasoned with and thus probably don't have to be exterminated at every opportunity (and they aren't) but there's a very big difference between Low-Threat-Enemies (what the Tau are) and Best-Hope-For-Humanity (what you seem to be painting them as).



> You're painting some very broad strokes. Yes, some marines live for glory or honor or reputation. Others live to protect humanity.


Never once did I mention glory, honour or reputation, because I realize that these things aren't necessarily that important. One cannot deny the function that the Adeptus Astartes were created and maintained to preform though. Where each Chapter chooses to draw the line between destroying man's enemies and protecting lives varies but all are supposed to do both. The seductive thing about Chaos is that it can offer you the ability to be better at doing either (though generally the destroying part) and thus is actively of interest to marines. Joining with the Tau (permanently, I have no problems with temporary alliances and the like) will not improve the Chapters ability to defend its people, it will not improve their ability to prosecute their enemies. Rather it will bind their people in slavery to a foreign power and bind them in slavery to a former enemy. For no gain. Chaos has something to offer, the Tau do not.



> That being said, they do have a level of compassion that the Imperium doesn't generally bother to have.


The Tau are young, the Imperium is not. The Imperium got to be the cynical, xenophobic, shoot-first-question-never empire that it is because it has learned, though centuries of blood and slavery, that the galaxy is not a forgiving place. The Tau are already learning these lessons, their compassion and new-ness have bitten them in the ass several times already. Compassion is a weakness (in 40k), humanity cannot afford weakness and Marines were created to be without weakness.



> Their overall outlook is not needlessly wasteful. They wouldn't throw 100 million humans into an Ork invasion because it was expedient. Nor would they shirk from it if needed.


I do not believe that the Imperium is needlessly wasteful. Nor do I believe that the Tau would not make such 'sacrifices' if they proved expedient. I have no doubt that the Tau would place far less value on those 100 million humans than they would on 100 million Tau (or even 10 million or a thousand). The Imperium values each human life, just not very much. The Tau value only their imperialistic objectives and their own populace.



> A cursory glance at history would find the bolded part pretty hilarious. The majority of written history has had slavery in one form or another. It's a relatively new trend that most of the world doesn't have slavery.


I'm aware of our history, and that's actually my point. Humans were made to see that slavery was wrong. Sure, it took a while and it wasn't easy but it happened (and actually happened several times in history). Yet we have never decided (and I do not believe that we, as a society, ever will) that how we treat work-animals (dogs, horses, etc) is demeaning, cruel or wrong or come to believe that they should live amongst us as equals. Because we are human we relate to humans and not animals, even ones so similar as apes. Because they are Tau they relate to tau and not lesser races, even ones so similar as humans.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

The way I see it, throughout the crusade you saw humans allied with aliens for the common good, such as the Interex. The Alpha Legion listened to what aliens had to say and actually turned upon the Emperor for the sake of mankind. The tau do look after the humans they end up ruling over, they even form regiments.

What's to say a Chapter who cares about mankind, who realises the goal that the Emperor had is as dead as he practically is, and because they believe and see that the Tau treat humans a lot better than the majority of the Imperium does, they join them for the sake of the mankind. It's not perfect but they believe it would be better for mankind to be allied to the Tau than to live under the yoke of an uncaring bureaucratic regime.


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## WarHammerman (Feb 19, 2012)

I'd like to point out that the Tau can be very persuasive when they want to be. There is definitely some 'unnatural influence' going on with the Etherial's. Plus the natural diplomacy of the Water Caste.

I would think that it could be just as subtle as Chaos. 

For me, the ones most prone to this would be a chapter that is out on the far edge of the empire - near Tau space. The ones that swept up after the Tau pulled back a few worlds. They would have seen that the citizens were well fed, taken care of (and in some cases better then they were when they were living on the outer-most fringe of the empire.)

Not that they would be terribly compassionate about the Aliens but that would plant the seed of doubt (which, being Space Marines, their minds are not too small for lol)

Over the years they would, of course, Fight the Tau directly (Shadowsun's expansion, etc). But they would also see that the Tau are unlike any of the Xeno's - they don't just land on a planet, call it theirs and WAAAUGH across the surface, they don't wake up call an ancient "i had it first" of the Necrons, they don't come down just to consume the worlds like the 'Nids. In fact, if the Tau were left alone, they'd improve that chunk of space (upgrading the tech, a better, closer infrastructure.) 

Now, Tau being cunning - if they did get wind that the Space Marines they were fighting against were feeling even the tiniest bit sympathetic they would probably send spies, Water Caste, and the others. 

So - lets assume a minor success. With subtle influence and putting on a good show, lets say that they convince the space marines that the Imperium is indeed pretty horrible, and that its run by equally horrible people. (I would imagine the casual way they end the life of its own citizens, and innocent peoples would be a big thing here). 

They could very easily come to the Space Marines- lets say under the banner of truce or negotiation. Bring an Etherial, make that seed of doubt not only take root - but then negotiate. Totally blow smoke up the space marines ceramine - tell them they'd be the Champions of the Tau Emperium. They'd not need to fight other humans, no - they can use their mighty arms and such to combat other evils (like that Ork problem - or, heck, if they wanted to they could have them first take out Farsight and his Enclaves. Appeal to their sense of "No Treachery" and have them keep fightig Tau.)

Then sweeten the deal - get them Plasma Weapons that wont overheat, perhaps some Jet Packs for the assault squads, smart-missiles for the Terminators, etc. Really kit them out super-nice.

And then the Tau Empire could use them as pawns in their game. Yes, the Space Marines would be the bottom rung - but make them think that they're "The Man." 

As an added bonus: Believing in The Emperor and The Greater Good is not mutually exclusive. You can believe in the great emperor, the guiding light of humanity - and that if we want to succeed we all have to work together and that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. 


Well, there's my two cents on the idea.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

The number one main reason that the imperium hasn't others with the tau is this, they are small fry.

If the inquisition felt that some space marine chapters were being influenced by them, they would tear them a new one, the imperium is still strong enough to do so, the last thing the imperium needs is more traitor chapters, the first to betray the imperium for the tau would be crucified and raped by every other chapter and member of the inquisition from light years around, there's a reason why all the traitors go the eye.

The space marines, except the wolves and salamanders generally couldn't give a crap about humans, all space marines, even the salamanders view them as a anomaly, they are too far removed from each other, pretty much another species, physically mentally and spiritually completely different, the only reason they do bother helping the citizens is simply because Vulkan did, the space wolves, well it's self explanatory as to why they wouldn't join the tau.
Look at their fortress monasteries, built in isolation away from people, the look at their recruits taken from feral worlds where no one lives in luxury, only the ultramarines recruit from civilised worlds and even then they recruit extremely well disciplined killers, blood angles recruit from a desolate irradiated desert world, the wolves from an icy hell etc.. Even the salamanders come from a world that prides itself in weaning the weak from its ranks, a planet that tears itself apart every few years killing off the weak and ensuring only the strongest survive, then they have to kill a giant salamander, chapters prefer there recruits to be killers, with a killing back ground, that are good at killing,not well looked after or protected

And if the needs of the many outweigh the few then all the more reason not join the tau, the tau have a piss small empire, there tech allows the, to only travel at really slow speeds, no way could you join the tau and protect humans all over, only in a small area of the east.

The Ethereals, we know nothing about, they could just be another psychic race, they could really be anything, no one outside the tau has ever met them and we don't know them, therefore we can't say they could do something like that, nevertheless their persuasiveness is no where near as good as that of chaos, read my previous post

The Tau as meq said are new and naive, after a few genocides they'll wiser up and not bother with compassion.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Maybe a space based chapter that is a salamanders successor could reach a planet taken over by the tau which has a strong human population and find that they are well looked after, well protected and could realise that this is how the Imperium should be. Maybe they decide to negotiate with the Tau and in the end the Tau agree to allow the chapter to settle on the world, and look after the humans there, as well as using the world as a recruitment post in the promise they will defend the Tau Empire and all those who choose to seek shelter with in it.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Read my third paragraph again! While you're at it the 2nd one too


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I did, I think that's a very cut and dry look at marines, I've read many stories and not every space marine is the same. It varies depending on experiences and tons of other variations. I read a story where marines turned renegade in the blink of an eye because they felt rejected and left to die. Inquisitors can't be everywhere and anywhere, and half the time if you screw with marines you're likely to find the airlock if you criticise them.

Look at the Badab war, how many loyal chapters were stuck on the wrong side because they perceived their rights were being infringed upon or something. 

Whose to say the world this "tau" chapter ends up on isn't a harsh world or there's a death world nearby or something.

I think the idea no Space Marine Chapters apart from 1 or 2 care about normal humanity is a bit extreme, if that was so then there would be no Imperium. Most Chapters are set up to defend specific sectors of space and that is what they do, Space fairing chapters are either crusading chapters or those who've lost their home world some how. 

Maybe this chapter had it's world destroyed by Tyranids and the Imperium didn't bother to send any aid and so they decided to look after human worlds within the Tau Empire because it's the nearest thing they have to normality if they no longer wish to server the general Imperium?


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Ok you cite the badab war, what happened to the traitors? They were systematically destroyed, their fortresses eradicated, had the loyal ones decided to leave and join the tau, the same would have happened.

And here's the number one reason why they wouldn't leave the imperium, they don't have the gene seed, it comes from terra, only a small portion is their own to distribute, if they did lose their home world they lost their gene seed too.

Space marines have undergone extreme physical mental, psychological indoctrination, mind wipes, training, they are stronger faster smarter and with emotions like love cut out of them, they have nothing in common with humanity short of a shared childhood, they serve because of their sense of duty, because of the emperor, because of the primarchs, because of their brothers, for their pride, for glory.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Lost&Damned said:


> Ok you cite the badman war, what happened to the traitors? They were systematically destroyed, their fortresses eradicated, had the loyal ones decided to leave and join the tau, the same would have happened.
> 
> And here's the number one reason why they wouldn't leave the imperium, they don't have the gene seed, it comes from terra, only a small portion is their own to distribute, if they did lose their home world they lost their gene seed too.
> 
> Space marines have undergone extreme physical mental, psychological indoctrination, mind wipes, training, they are stronger faster smarter and with emotions like love cut out of them, they have nothing in common with humanity short of a shared childhood, they serve because of their sense of duty, because of the emperor, because of the primarchs, because of their brothers, for their pride, for glory.


Space Marines are not that clear cut, if that was so there would be no heresy at all, no traitors, no renegades, none on penitent crusades etc etc.

Btw if their home was destroyed by Tyranids, maybe they loaded all their geneseed onto a battle barge to keep it from getting into the tyranids hands and evacuated it? 

There's so many probabilities and possibilities for Space Marines to turn their back on the Imperium, heck the Sons of Malice turned because an Inquisitor deemed their practice of cannibalism heretical despite Blood Angels and their successors doing the same.

Why wouldn't a chapter, who witnessed human life so casually discarded for the sake of 10 metres or their world destroyed with the loss of total human life because the Imperium didn't do what it was meant to do, turn from the Imperium and escape to an Empire where they perceive it to be better for them and for humanity?

Those "traitors" who repented were sent on a crusade to redeem themselves, only the Astral Claws where almost entirely eradicated because they where true heretics.

It's simply not a black and white universe where Space Marines hate humans but remain loyal or hate humans and turn to chaos.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

ever heard the term clutching at straws?

the heresy happened because of chaos, they corrupted them on a genetic level, they offer immortality, power, independance, they weaved vastly complex plots spanning the galaxy to ensnare the primarchs and their legions.just read my first comment on this thread for the chaos thingy.

the astral claws left the imperium, the ones that didnt were left alive, so what pray tell is youre point? if they had left for the tau they would have been killed, because they have betrayed, they didnt betray so they were left alive, capiche?

the chapter would want to preserve their genetic heritage, their stores in their monasteries are easy to deplete, they would run out and depending on how badly the other chapters raped them, would soon find themselves seedless.


the sons of malice ate the enemy dead for their patron god malal


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

If anyone is clutching at straws, it's you. The Imperium is not all powerful, the Imperium can not simply wipe out the Tau as proven before, the Imperium is weak, the Imperium is falling apart, humanity is losing it's fight against every race it's encounted. It may win wars here and there, but thats like the government shuffling money around so that while it fixes that bit another part is out of money and you're basically replacing one problem with another.

Example? Imperium declares a crusade on the Tau, it gets held up because reinforcements etc are redirected to fight the Tyranids and the Tau end up conquering a number of planets in it's 3rd expansion.

You're basically saying though that a Chapter can fall to "evil" for bad reasons and wanting more power etc, but a Chapter can't fall to "evil" for good reasons, such as saving human lives or humanity or the galaxy? It's not as if a Primarch(s) ever did it...ummm Alpha Legion.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

ffs, i take the time to write down my rebuttals, i feel like im talking to a bird, i provide it with evidence and various examples, you hoot fly off and shit allover the place, is my writing that hard to comprehend?
ive re read the entire thread far too many times now, you want me too keep repeating myself, so d you want me to copy and paste all again or do you want me to rewrite it?

as for the strong enough to destroy the tau, yes but they wouldn't, they would however destroy a chapter that poses a serious precedent, because they are dnagerous if left alone, because others may follow and a dead space marine chapter is far better than one with free reign.
citing the alpha legion s useless the time difference, the difference in environment and all the things that happened in between as well as my previous comments show that a chapter falling to chaos is nothing like a chapter betraying their oaths then going for the tau.


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

Lost&Damned said:


> And here's the number one reason why they wouldn't leave the imperium, they don't have the gene seed, it comes from terra, only a small portion is their own to distribute, if they did lose their home world they lost their gene seed too..


Ah, no. The Space Marine Chapters are obliged to send only 5% of their total geneseed to the Adeptus Mechanicus for monitoring of a Chapters Health and Mutation checks.

The sum total of a Chapters genetic material is kept within their Progenoid Glands (2 to a Marine (Neck/Chest Cavitiy)) as these Glands are the only way a Chapter can reproduce its Gene Seed.

They rely on themselves. NOT Terra.

Alice


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

If Blood Angels can ally with Necrons, Spess Mehrens can ally with Tau.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Your "evidence" is based on personal belief though and not taking the general history of Space Marines into account. You say they'd never do it because Marines are trained to be loyal and only fall because they are presented with further power by Chaos. 

I believe Marines are loyal because they have the interest of the Imperium as a whole at heart and if that means breaking away to raise awareness of something then a Chapter probably would, just like how the Soul Drinkers fell from grace, or the Relictors, or the, what we now known to be misguided, traitors in the badab war, or the Sons of Medusa who broke away from the Iron Hands, or the Age of Strife etc etc. 

You say they'd be destroyed for turning, well let them try if they want to divert resources away from the wars with tyranids to hound down a chapter that's defected to the Tau then so be it, but it doesn't work like that. 

They wanted to destroy the Astral Claws but failed and they became Red Corsairs by fleeing into the Maelstrom, what if a chapter basically went into Tau territory and used that as their form of the Maelstrom, do you think the Imperium would start a massive crusade to destroy the Tau because of a single chapter?

I'm not saying it will happen all I am saying is I think it _can_ happen. If two of the Primarchs can decide to sacrifice the whole human race to defeat chaos, then I think a chapter can turn it's back on the Imperium for the sake of humanity.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

the blood angel and necron alliance was bad and illogical enough, id have to buy a unch of hemmaroid cream if the latter happened

again and again no matter what you always, blindly jump for chapters that fell due to chaos, soul drinkers PRIMARILY because of the plots of tzeentch, relictors i cant remember, but sure as fuck had something to do with chaos didnt it?
and again, oh lawd, 10 THOUSAND years have passed from the time primarchs walked amongst men, you cant talk about anything related to chaos, because as i said before its vastly different.
fuck it, i dont care anymore, good day sir


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I was only talking about chaos because previous arguments said they only fell due to chaos, I was stating that there's a variety of ways a chapter could turn, not just because of chaos but because of mistakes in their perspective or morality. 

Yes 10 thousand years have passed but two of the greatest Space Marines minds ever decided that for the sake of the universe the Imperium must lose. They didn't fall to chaos, they made a decision. Random space marines turn all the time because they didn't believe in what the chapter did, or what the imperium did but their only option was to turn to chaos because..that was the only option. 

What if a chapter had the option to turn to the Tau because they despised Chaos and didn't agree with the way the Imperium was dealing with the events but agreed with the rationale of the Tau.

The Reflictors were declared Excommunicate Traitoris by certain inquisitors because they started using chaos weapons to defeat chaos. For fighting fire with fire they where excommunicated, yet the Exorcists are possessed to make them immune to daemons and they are just fine...you see, there's loads of views in how to fight mankind's enemies, siding with the tau could be one of them.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> The galaxy isn't that different. Certainly not in this case. The Tau are still xenos who seek to yoke humanity to their will. Sure, they can be reasoned with and thus probably don't have to be exterminated at every opportunity (and they aren't) but there's a very big difference between Low-Threat-Enemies (what the Tau are) and Best-Hope-For-Humanity (what you seem to be painting them as).


The galaxy is _entirely_ different from the heydays of the Great Crusade. Is there a near all-knowing being running the show? 20 (18?) of his demi-god sons under him? Millions of Space Marines? A flowering, growing empire not worn down by thousands of year of stagnation and war? No?

When things are good you can afford to be picky. Less so when things start hitting the pooper. As they say, beggars can't be choosers.



MEQinc said:


> Never once did I mention glory, honour or reputation, because I realize that these things aren't necessarily that important.


Seriously? Glory? Honor? Renown? They aren't that important?

One of the mottos/battle cries for the Ultramarines is "Courage and honor". 

The Feast of Blades, held amongst the successor Chapters of the Imperial Fists, is purely about glory, honor, and recognition.

In _Helsreach_ the Black Templar (most vocal being the main character) complain about the lack of honor the fight for Helreach hive would have. They grumble that they're missing out on the glory of the space battle. Frequently they complain about the lack of glory there is to be had by leading the city defense.

The Space Wolves are obsessed about their own Sagas. They're willing to put themselves at great risk to increase their standing within the Rout. Insane acts of heroism and bravery are praised and awarded.

More often than not, honor or glory through combat is amongst the most important things to a Space Marine. The ones who enjoy battle for the sake of battle, like the Flesh Tearers, are the oddity.

Which makes sense, because if they were more interested in destruction or battle they would have slipped the figurative leash and gone renegade or to Chaos. Which some do.



MEQinc said:


> The Tau are young, the Imperium is not. The Imperium got to be the cynical, xenophobic, shoot-first-question-never empire that it is because it has learned, though centuries of blood and slavery, that the galaxy is not a forgiving place. The Tau are already learning these lessons, their compassion and new-ness have bitten them in the ass several times already. Compassion is a weakness (in 40k), humanity cannot afford weakness and Marines were created to be without weakness.


If given the choice between a currently and consistently harsh and uncarring ruler as opposed to a more forgiving, consilitatory one that may or may not become jaded in the future, I know which one I'd pick.

You _know_ you're screwed with one. You _may_ be screwed by the other. A rational actor would take the chance of not getting screwed.



MEQinc said:


> I do not believe that the Imperium is needlessly wasteful.


I don't know what fluff you've been reading, but the Imperium is very liberal with its manpower.

Look at the Siege of Vraks from the Imperial Armour series. The constant theme across the series is that life is cheap. They care no more for casualties than ammo expenditures. 

From the Gaunt's Ghost series we have many characters throughout the series mock Gaunt for his careful allocation of men. They consider such feelings as quaint and outmoded. 

There's a distinct lack of social safety nets on many worlds. You either have money or power or you do without. And the Imperium really doesn't care too much because there are plenty more men to be had.

Life is cheap.



MEQinc said:


> Nor do I believe that the Tau would not make such 'sacrifices' if they proved expedient. I have no doubt that the Tau would place far less value on those 100 million humans than they would on 100 million Tau (or even 10 million or a thousand). The Imperium values each human life, just not very much. The Tau value only their imperialistic objectives and their own populace.


The Tau most definitely value themselves above their...allies. That's not to say that they needlessly throw away their companions away. They treat their auxiliaries well. 

Heck, the Kroot threw their lot in with the Tau because the Tau selflessly aided the Kroot in a time of need.

Whether or not the "Greater Good" is some sort of chemical trickery on the behalf of the Etherals is anyone's guess (and I personally say yes), but the Tau most definitely would not funnel hundreds of millions of men to fight and die on a world, unlike the Imperium.

I think your stance on the subject stems from a distorted view of the Tau. I'd suggest picking up (one way or another) the Tau codex and reading through it. 



MEQinc said:


> I'm aware of our history, and that's actually my point. Humans were made to see that slavery was wrong. Sure, it took a while and it wasn't easy but it happened (and actually happened several times in history). Yet we have never decided (and I do not believe that we, as a society, ever will) that how we treat work-animals (dogs, horses, etc) is demeaning, cruel or wrong or come to believe that they should live amongst us as equals. Because we are human we relate to humans and not animals, even ones so similar as apes. Because they are Tau they relate to tau and not lesser races, even ones so similar as humans.


I find it...interesting that you believe that humanity is somehow incapable of falling back on slavery. That somehow human rights is something steadily earned and never lost. The Germans in World War 2 fell back on slave labor, as did the Japanese.

Heck, human trafficking still exists to this day.

I don't know if its wishful thinking or plain naivety to believe that humanity is incapable of enslaving each other in the future. 

Heck, in the Eisenhorn series there's an example of human slave trade still existing in M.40.


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

I couldn't see why a chapter wouldn't turn, to categorically state that a chapter never would is a little narrow minded.

While I would humbly agree - its easy for Chaos to seduce with the promises of more power, greater strength or even personal desires through such promises even the most penitent man in the right set circumstances would succumb to them if it was to secure a course of action he thought was needed - for the greater good.

It is this exploitation that Chaos is good at - it has had many millennia to perfect its recruitment tactics as such this is what it excels at.


While the Tau haven't had the eons of persuasion experience, it would be narrow minded to think it impossible - while highly improbable / unlikely - in the right set of circumstances it would be possible for a chapter to stray.... especially one on the fringe.

However I see them more renegade that Tau, and more likely to want the Human world under human rule.... we are dealing with fanatics after all.... after a few thousand years though of being allies and supporting each other in defending their realms.... maybe... just an amalgamation of perhaps tactics / weaponry and eventually ethos could ensue.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Zetronus said:


> I couldn't see why a chapter wouldn't turn, to categorically state that a chapter never would is a little narrow minded.


I wholeheartedly agree. I think I lost this point when making my previous post.

Is it likely that a Chapter or even a group of Space Marines could turn to the Tau? No, not at all.

Is it _impossible_? I don't think so. There are around a 1000 Chapters with at least hundreds of marines in each. Could some of them turn under some circumstances? I think the possibility is very much so.


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

indeed, Chaos uses its powers to manipulate circumstances to seed an action / response that it desires.... 

arguable the right circumstances could come about by serendipity 

but knowing what those "right circumstances" are .... well to be honest that is really beyond me.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> The Imperium is not all powerful, the Imperium can not simply wipe out the Tau as proven before, the Imperium is weak, the Imperium is falling apart, humanity is losing it's fight against every race it's encounted.


The Imperium is not losing. The Imperium single-handedly holds every single race in the galaxy at bay (a feat no other power has ever claimed), and has done so for millions of years, its hardly falling apart. Should the Imperium desire the destruction of the Tau then the Tau are dead, because the Imperium possesses power the likes of which the Tau are only beginning to comprehend. The Imperium possess more worlds than they Tau do people, and while many of those worlds are already taxed to their own defenses (or the defenses of others) many are not. Should the Imperium ever stir its fat ass to oust the Tau then the Tau will burn, just like the millions of other alien 'empires' that have fallen before.



> You're basically saying though that a Chapter can fall to "evil" for bad reasons and wanting more power etc, but a Chapter can't fall to "evil" for good reasons, such as saving human lives or humanity or the galaxy? It's not as if a Primarch(s) ever did it...ummm Alpha Legion.


Firstly, we simply do not know the full reasoning or objective of the Alpha Legion. I think it is very simplistic to simply take the Cabal at its word and assume the Alpha's did as well. 

Space Marines exist to protect the Imperium and humanity, that's their entire purpose. Some Chapters take that to mean that they need to save every life they can, some are more willing to sacrifice the few for the many. They all recognize that men must die so that Man endures and are willing to make that sacrifice. The Tau do not offer a Marine the ability to better protect lots of humans nor do they offer the ability to better protect a few. They can make their lives easier, I'm not doubting that, and that is why *humans* will and have joined the Tau. Marines do not care about the suffering of humans, they do not understand it and cannot empathize with it. The Salamanders (easily one of the most compassionate chapters) believes that only through suffering can they be strong. The Space Wolves have the technology, the resources and the pull to make life better for the people of their world (as do most Chapters) but they don't. Sure the Tau could also make their people's lives better, but if Marines won't do that themselves why would they care if outsiders could?



Iron Angel said:


> If Blood Angels can ally with Necrons, Spess Mehrens can ally with Tau.


Agreed. We're not talking about alliances though, we're talking about turning. We are talking about abandoning the Imperium, their vows and their duty permanently and completely. I would find it equally ridiculous if someone were to suggest that a Marine Chapter would come to serve the Necrons.



hailene said:


> The galaxy is _entirely_ different from the heydays of the Great Crusade. Is there a near all-knowing being running the show? 20 (18?) of his demi-god sons under him? Millions of Space Marines? A flowering, growing empire not worn down by thousands of year of stagnation and war? No?


No, but their are still a thousand and more enemies who scrape and claw to take what is humanities. Still alien powers who hunger for our deaths or to enslave us. True, the Imperium is in worse shape now than it was during the Great Crusade but the galaxy it faces hasn't gotten friendlier.



> When things are good you can afford to be picky. Less so when things start hitting the pooper. As they say, beggars can't be choosers.


But beggars needn't be slaves. When the going gets tough, the tough get going, they don't sit back and give in. When someones back's against the wall, that's when you find out what they're made of. Do they compromise on their morals, abandon their goals and shit on their honour and pride; or do they stand strong and fight back? 



> Seriously? Glory? Honor? Renown? They aren't that important?


I'm thoroughly confused. I thought you were attacking my position for rating glory, honour and renown too highly, and so pointed out that I'd never mentioned them. Now you're attacking my position for stating that they're not important, which again I didn't do. I qualified my position. I realize that many Chapters do view their honour very highly, just as a realize that others don't and that even those that do are often willing to win without glory (though they don't like it).



> More often than not, honor or glory through combat is amongst the most important things to a Space Marine. The ones who enjoy battle for the sake of battle, like the Flesh Tearers, are the oddity.


Honour and glory are simply how they choose to frame their combat. A Space Wolf is driven to reckless charges for his 'honour', a Flesh Tearer does it because he recognizes his purpose but it's still the same act, with the same consequences and rewards. He still enjoys the act, he simply frames his enjoyment and being about his personally glory, rather than the chemical stimulants pumping through his brain and blood.



> If given the choice between a currently and consistently harsh and uncarring ruler as opposed to a more forgiving, consilitatory one that may or may not become jaded in the future, I know which one I'd pick.


Given the choice between a ruler with vast experience and a proven track record versus a novice whose policies are provably bound to fail or change, I know which one I'd pick. 



> I don't know what fluff you've been reading, but the Imperium is very liberal with its manpower.


I'm fully aware of that, it'd be impossible not to be. The difference is that I don't view being liberal with manpower as being the same as needlessly wasteful. The Imperium takes the most cost-effective solution it has available, and that just happens to be people. Sure it's harsh but it works.



> That's not to say that they needlessly throw away their companions away. They treat their auxiliaries well.


They treat them well when they can and throw them away when they have to, just like the Imperium.



> Heck, the Kroot threw their lot in with the Tau because the Tau selflessly aided the Kroot in a time of need.


And the Vespid aid the Tau because they've been brainwashed into obedience. Your point?



> but the Tau most definitely would not funnel hundreds of millions of men to fight and die on a world, unlike the Imperium.


Then they will lose that world and the Imperium would not. Personally, if I'm on that world, I'd rather my team won.



> I think your stance on the subject stems from a distorted view of the Tau.


I don't feel my stance is particularly critical of the Tau. Rather it seems your view of the Imperium is overly negative (I'd suggest a look at the Dark Heresy material, which shows a sector largely free of alien invasion and with plenty of prosperous and normal planets) and your, and others, views of Space Marines are overly optimistic. 



> I find it...interesting that you believe that humanity is somehow incapable of falling back on slavery.


Did I say that? I recognize that our current situation may revert, just like a realize that it will swing back again at some point. Humans can and have been convinced to treat each other better is my point. Humans can be truly monstrous to each other (there is no hate like that between brothers and all that) but they can good to each other, we can, do and have treated each other as equals. The Tau are not human, they are unlikely to ever recognize us as equals because we are fundamentally different from them. That's not racism or a fallacy of perception, it's scientific fact. Humans are not Tau, Tau are not Human; they don't behave like we do, they don't think like we do, they aren't wired like we are. They are alien, their thoughts are alien, their motivations are alien.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

MEQinc said:


> The Imperium is not losing. The Imperium single-handedly holds every single race in the galaxy at bay (a feat no other power has ever claimed), and has done so for millions of years, its hardly falling apart. Should the Imperium desire the destruction of the Tau then the Tau are dead, because the Imperium possesses power the likes of which the Tau are only beginning to comprehend. The Imperium possess more worlds than they Tau do people, and while many of those worlds are already taxed to their own defenses (or the defenses of others) many are not. Should the Imperium ever stir its fat ass to oust the Tau then the Tau will burn, just like the millions of other alien 'empires' that have fallen before.
> 
> Space Marines exist to protect the Imperium and humanity, that's their entire purpose. Some Chapters take that to mean that they need to save every life they can, some are more willing to sacrifice the few for the many. They all recognize that men must die so that Man endures and are willing to make that sacrifice. The Tau do not offer a Marine the ability to better protect lots of humans nor do they offer the ability to better protect a few. They can make their lives easier, I'm not doubting that, and that is why *humans* will and have joined the Tau. Marines do not care about the suffering of humans, they do not understand it and cannot empathize with it. The Salamanders (easily one of the most compassionate chapters) believes that only through suffering can they be strong. The Space Wolves have the technology, the resources and the pull to make life better for the people of their world (as do most Chapters) but they don't. Sure the Tau could also make their people's lives better, but if Marines won't do that themselves why would they care if outsiders could?
> .


You made quite a few other good points but the two I quoted just now is part of what I was trying to convey to words of truth, hopefully your explanation proves to be more fruitful than mine


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> The Imperium is not losing. The Imperium single-handedly holds every single race in the galaxy at bay (a feat no other power has ever claimed), and has done so for millions of years, its hardly falling apart. Should the Imperium desire the destruction of the Tau then the Tau are dead, because the Imperium possesses power the likes of which the Tau are only beginning to comprehend.


I have a feeling you're trolling us now. The Imperium isn't fighting every race. There have been other dominant powers in the past (Necrons, Eldar).

The Imperium hasn't been around for millions of years. Heck, modern humans have only been around for a few hundred thousands of years.



MEQinc said:


> I'm thoroughly confused. I thought you were attacking my position for rating glory, honour and renown too highly, and so pointed out that I'd never mentioned them. Now you're attacking my position for stating that they're not important, which again I didn't do. I qualified my position. I realize that many Chapters do view their honour very highly, just as a realize that others don't and that even those that do are often willing to win without glory (though they don't like it).


Not quite. What I initially said is that there are marines who fight for compassion or the betterment of humanity. I also mentioned that some marines fight for glory, reputation, and honor. 

You then, in a reply, said that glory, reputation, and honor mean little to marines, which I disagree with. 

Did I make myself clearer? 
~~~~~~
I'll avoid a blow by blow response like we've been going through so far. It's bogging down the conversation, I think.

As I said before, your view of the Tau is...odd, to me. Yes, they may not value the opinions of a non-Tau as highly as a Tau. On the other hand, the species they take into their fold are not "slaves" as you keep putting it. 

From the Tau codex:

"The Tau quickly came to recognise the value of integrating other races into their empire. Within scant decades of making contact with the first such races, alien subjects were being granted roles of responsibility within Tau society."



MEQinc said:


> Did I say that? I recognize that our current situation may revert, just like a realize that it will swing back again at some point. Humans can and have been convinced to treat each other better is my point. Humans can be truly monstrous to each other (there is no hate like that between brothers and all that) but they can good to each other, we can, do and have treated each other as equals. The Tau are not human, they are unlikely to ever recognize us as equals because we are fundamentally different from them. That's not racism or a fallacy of perception, it's scientific fact. Humans are not Tau, Tau are not Human; they don't behave like we do, they don't think like we do, they aren't wired like we are. They are alien, their thoughts are alien, their motivations are alien.


I find it ironic that you say that the Tau are wholly alien and thus can not treat us as equals, yet in the same breath assume their biases and prejudices are very human.

Also your idea that sentient life forms can _never_ treat each other with respect or equality is...frightening.


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

My take on it is this.

Tau are like communists. Dont argue, listen/read. They believe in everything for the greater good, and treat individual life as unimportant in comparison. They try to save lives, but only for a strategic purpose. If they had unlimited troops they wouldnt give a damn about their men. They subjugate other races under the guise of "equality". They literally enslaved the Vespids and use the kroot only as tools, seeing them as disgusting and barbaric creatures.

The imperials are ridiculously beurocratic. There are the head honchos, then there are the commoners. In the army there are Space Marines, and then there is everyone else. The Space Marines are the elite of society, they are predisposed to serve the emperor. They are proud, loving honor and glory. The guardsmen on the other hand hate their lives, pretty much. Very few guardsmen make it home to their families, and the majority die horribly painful deaths.

Space marines generally love dying for their cause, Guardsmen generally hate it. Mostly cuz theyre treated like crap. Not to mention that, honestly, the imperium doesnt care about their guardsmen. At all. They might not always throw men away for no reason, but they have enough reinforcements they dont care. For this reason guardsmen might defer, as it would probably make their lives a little better. Plus they would have better guns 

Space marines are not likely to defer for any reason other than increased power, due to their love of glory. How will they get power and glory by bowing their heads to xenos? Especially xenos that the space marines could snap with one hand easily. It is theoretically possible, but the probability is so low that its not worth considering.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

JAMOB said:


> Space marines are not likely to defer for any reason other than increased power, due to their love of glory. How will they get power and glory by bowing their heads to xenos? Especially xenos that the space marines could snap with one hand easily. It is theoretically possible, but the probability is so low that its not worth considering.


You're running with the assumption that _all_ marines fight for glory or power.

Some don't.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

hailene said:


> I have a feeling you're trolling us now. The Imperium isn't fighting every race. There have been other dominant powers in the past (Necrons, Eldar).


What races aren't the Imperium fighting?

The Necrons never ruled the galaxy and even at the height of their power the Eldar, Orks and others expanded and fought against them successfully. The Eldar Empire did not face many of the threats the Imperium does (Tyranids, resurgent Necrons, etc) and during their rule allowed many races to expanded unchecked (Orks and humans being the most obvious), indeed they abstained from fighting for the most part and were content to let the 'lesser races' do whatever they want.



> The Imperium hasn't been around for millions of years. Heck, modern humans have only been around for a few hundred thousands of years.


Hmm, yes that was an exaggeration. 10,000 years is still a very long time though, as you point out significantly longer than modern humans have even existed. My point was that the Imperium has been around a long time and is not going anywhere quickly. That still stands, regardless of the actual number.



> You then, in a reply, said that glory, reputation, and honor mean little to marines, which I disagree with.


I would also disagree with that statement, which is why I didn't make it. I said they aren't "necessarily that important", and clarified in my last post what I meant by that.



> "The Tau quickly came to recognise the value of integrating other races into their empire. Within scant decades of making contact with the first such races, alien subjects were being granted roles of responsibility within Tau society."


1) Note the Tau do this for value to themselves, not value to the others.
2) If you look at Tau society (and I have) you see that those 'roles of responsibility' do not include political office, nor roles of military significance (beyond where necessity demands) or any other roles that carry the responsibility of command. Rather they are roles that allow the subjugated races to be of the greatest benefit to the Tau, whilst also minimizing risk of uprising or a loss of control. So, roles where they are responsible for bettering the Tau. 

If you read between the lines of propaganda, and look at the society behind them, you can learn a lot. Their subjects are not equals, they are subjects. 

The Tau are happy to expend Kroot, Vespid and humans on the battlefield, yet they will not give this races command over Tau units (or even Tau equipment a lot of the time). Despite the fact that many of them (particularly in the Kroot and human communities) may be more experienced than their own commanders. 



> I find it ironic that you say that the Tau are wholly alien and thus can not treat us as equals, yet in the same breath assume their biases and prejudices are very human.


I never stated why I thought they would be biased or prejudiced against humans because I don't claim to know what those biases are. I can tell they're there because the way Tau treat their subjects indicates they do not view them as equals for whatever reason. 



> Also your idea that sentient life forms can _never_ treat each other with respect or equality is...frightening.


Okay then, I'm fine with that. I don't think that sentient life forms will ever be capable of recognizing a different form of sentient life as being truly equal to themselves. Respect is a different thing entirely, and one I never commented on. If you have some evidence that suggests sentient life forms have ever treated each other as equals, I'd like to see it. Until then I'll go off human behavior (as it's the only real sentience I've seen) and note our inability to treat each other (beings of the same form of sentient life) with respect and equality all the time, our treatment of other animals (some of which likely approach pretty close to sentience) and the behaviour of other animals (as nature is chalk full of kill-it-if-its-different mentalities).



hailene said:


> You're running with the assumption that _all_ marines fight for glory or power.
> 
> Some don't.


So then, what can he Tau provide to a Chapter more interested in protecting its people? Note the word protection, which is not conditional on the quality of their lives.


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

hailene said:


> You're running with the assumption that all marines fight for glory or power.
> 
> Some don't.


Thats true. However, those that dont fight for glory fight instead for the Emperor and for the imperium and for their Primarchs. These marines wouldn't defer to anyone really, unless demons were involved. I was talking only about those marines that would leave the imperium for some other army. Sorry if that wasnt clear.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> What races aren't the Imperium fighting?


The thousands of species we're not told about? They're not technically fighting the Eldar or the Tau, no more than the other races are fighting each other.



MEQinc said:


> The Necrons never ruled the galaxy and even at the height of their power the Eldar, Orks and others expanded and fought against them successfully. The Eldar Empire did not face many of the threats the Imperium does (Tyranids, resurgent Necrons, etc) and during their rule allowed many races to expanded unchecked (Orks and humans being the most obvious), indeed they abstained from fighting for the most part and were content to let the 'lesser races' do whatever they want.


The Necrons had their moment of sunshine after they sealed the C'tan, though they quickly realized that in their weakened state they couldn't tackle the Eldar.

The Eldar dominated the galaxy for 60 _million_ years. To put that into perspective, if the Eldar ruled the galaxy for a day, then the Imperium has been around for a little less than 2 and a half minutes.

And they didn't abstain from fighting. They were so above the other races it was a joke. 

The Eldar codex states that before the fall, "...no other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth or stability for countless mililena." Worrying about the human or Orks infesting the galaxy is like worrying about a mold infestation taking over your house.



MEQinc said:


> Hmm, yes that was an exaggeration. 10,000 years is still a very long time though, as you point out significantly longer than modern humans have even existed. My point was that the Imperium has been around a long time and is not going anywhere quickly. That still stands, regardless of the actual number.


Modern humans have been around for 200,000 years, considerably longer than the Imperium.

And as I said before, 10,000 years is nothing. Relative to the Eldar reign, the Imperium has been around for about .16% of their rule. The Eldar ruled for 600 times longer than humanity has held dominance. 



MEQinc said:


> 1) Note the Tau do this for value to themselves, not value to the others.
> 2) If you look at Tau society (and I have) you see that those 'roles of responsibility' do not include political office, nor roles of military significance (beyond where necessity demands) or any other roles that carry the responsibility of command. Rather they are roles that allow the subjugated races to be of the greatest benefit to the Tau, whilst also minimizing risk of uprising or a loss of control. So, roles where they are responsible for bettering the Tau.


I haven't found any specifics of what roles the Tau allow non-Tau to have. You apparently do. Could you please list them? And show that's a comprehensive list? Or in the least proof that the Tau disallow non-Tau from command responsibilities? 



MEQinc said:


> What races aren't the Imperium fighting?
> The Tau are happy to expend Kroot, Vespid and humans on the battlefield, yet they will not give this races command over Tau units (or even Tau equipment a lot of the time). Despite the fact that many of them (particularly in the Kroot and human communities) may be more experienced than their own commanders.


Proof?

Also the Tau gave the Vespids technology to make their weapons much more effective. Weapons only the Vespid could use.

The Kroot themselves care not for Tau technology, preferring to use their own.

And, again, proof of where Kroot or human commanders within a Tau army are refused any positions of power?



MEQinc said:


> Okay then, I'm fine with that. I don't think that sentient life forms will ever be capable of recognizing a different form of sentient life as being truly equal to themselves. Respect is a different thing entirely, and one I never commented on. If you have some evidence that suggests sentient life forms have ever treated each other as equals, I'd like to see it. Until then I'll go off human behavior (as it's the only real sentience I've seen) and note our inability to treat each other (beings of the same form of sentient life) with respect and equality all the time, our treatment of other animals (some of which likely approach pretty close to sentience) and the behaviour of other animals (as nature is chalk full of kill-it-if-its-different mentalities).
> /QUOTE]
> 
> The Interex showed a united human and alien empire that lasted for thousands of years.
> ...


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

hailene said:


> The thousands of species we're not told about? They're not technically fighting the Eldar or the Tau, no more than the other races are fighting each other.


Well I suppose, seeing as they're not mentioned, that I cannot state for a fact that the Imperium is fighting every single species (though given the scale of the Imperium there would be pretty much no races beyond its borders and thus most would be likely to encounter the Imperium at some point, more likely than any other race). When I said race I meant playable race. They are technically, and actually, fighting both the Eldar and the Tau. Perhaps not non-stop but they are not at continuous war with the Necrons, Tyranids or Orks either. The Imperium's official stance is that they are automatically at war with every xenos race out there and they back this policy up wherever possible.



> Modern humans have been around for 200,000 years, considerably longer than the Imperium.


Depends on how you define modern I suppose. Seeing as recorded human history only stretches back around 10,000 years, that's kinda what I was going with.



> And as I said before, 10,000 years is nothing. Relative to the Eldar reign, the Imperium has been around for about .16% of their rule.


1) Relative to recorded human history the Imperium has lasted for about 100% of it right now. No human empire has ever come close to matching that, I doubt most people can truly grasp how large a time-scale that is. The United States has existed for less than 0.03% of the time-scale the Imperium has, making it even less significant relative to the Imperium than the Imperium is to the Eldar. 10,000 years is a bloody long time. Only by comparing it to geographical, astronomical or fictional events can we get any grasp on how long it is.
2) The Eldar Empire didn't collapse over night, despite roughly the entirety of its territory exploding spectacularly in an instant. They still cling on, and are still a viable military threat in many ways (nearly 10,000 years latter). The Imperium is not going anywhere, it is not failing or fading or dying out. It has endured for longer than most humans can comprehend and it is not sitting on a powder keg like Slaanesh. It will continue to endure. That's all I'm trying to say. 



> Or in the least proof that the Tau disallow non-Tau from command responsibilities?


Only Etherals are allowed political command responsibilities amongst the Tau. Given that humans (and other subjects) can't be Etherals, they can't be in political command. As for military command, the Tau Empire codex doesn't contain any HQ units that aren't Tau and never once references a subject race in a position of authority. Given that they are all termed auxiliary units and auxiliary units, by definition, support and don't command I see no reason to believe why the Tau would have auxiliary units in command positions.

No Tau fluff that I have ever seen mentions non-Tau subjects being in command of Tau subjects, many mention the opposite. If you wish to provide evidence where non-Tau are in positions of command I would be more than happy to see it. The burden of proof here does not lie solely on me.



> And, again, proof of where Kroot or human commanders within a Tau army are refused any positions of power?


As I said, they don't have them. I doubt the Tau are so blatant as to refuse them positions, them simply have to not offer them. There must be a reason why the subjugated races serve but don't command. It's clearly not ability, experience or desire so the only other real option is political. 



> I guess humanity can't care about aliens, right?


I would really appreciate it if you would stop putting words in my mouth. I never stated that humanity can't care about aliens. I never stated that aliens can't care about humanity. I stated that humanity cannot view aliens as equals, and vice-versa. It is difficult to treat someone with compassion if you don't view them as equal, but it is not impossible. I treat my dog pretty well and I certainly care about him, but I don't in any way consider him my equal. Humans have a hard enough time viewing other humans as equals (which is why we can and have done horrible things to each other) I find it very unlikely that we will ever be able to embrace a race which is fundamental different from ourselves as being our equals. Based on what humans can and have done to things they view as less than themselves (both in reality and 40k) I have no problem expecting that other races, which view themselves as being better, will have no problems being equally vicious. 



> First, how a person lives is very important. There's no point in living a "safe" life if you're working 20 hours a day in terrible conditions.


I disagree completely. I would far rather be alive in horrible conditions than dead. Life is full of options and opportunity, you can recover from harsh living conditions; death is very final, there is no recovering from it. 



> Second, the Tau can offer protection to planets that may be considered not worth protecting or planets too difficult to get to to defend.


Any planet the Imperium deems not worth protecting is a) highly unlikely to have a Chapter protecting it (and thus available to be turned) and b) likely to be not worth protecting to the Tau as well.



> The Imperium may be large, but it may take years, decades, sometimes centuries for a message of help to arrive, much less be acted upon. The Tau are smaller and quicker to respond.


Unfortunately the Tau are basically already at the boundaries of their expansion. Without proper warp navigation they will not be able to expand much beyond their current scope, which they kind of have to in order to be able to influence a large number of human worlds. Further Imperial warp travel is faster than that of the Tau, and Tau communication is not free of the vagaries that affect Imperial communication. The warp's a bitch like that. 

Marine Chapters are either based in a small enough area for them to reasonably respond quickly to threats or a mobile enough to react quickly to things happening in their immediate vicinity (or both). If a Marine Chapter is present in a region than it is capable of responding to any threats in that region. If it is unable to engage those threats because they lack the strength they will be tempted by offers of more strength. But the Tau do not possess more strength, they cannot offer the Marines the ability to 'better' themselves. All they can offer is eventual re-enforcements, just like the Imperium. The Tau will only be slightly faster (at best) in responding than the Guard, and will not be able to respond in the numbers the Guard can.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Well I suppose, seeing as they're not mentioned, that I cannot state for a fact that the Imperium is fighting every single species (though given the scale of the Imperium there would be pretty much no races beyond its borders and thus most would be likely to encounter the Imperium at some point, more likely than any other race). When I said race I meant playable race. They are technically, and actually, fighting both the Eldar and the Tau. Perhaps not non-stop but they are not at continuous war with the Necrons, Tyranids or Orks either. The Imperium's official stance is that they are automatically at war with every xenos race out there and they back this policy up wherever possible.


Classic misunderstanding of the breadth of the Imperium.

The Imperium stretches, more or less, across the galaxy. The Eastern portion of the Eastern fringe doesn't have anything, but for the most part the Imperium touches everywhere.

The thing is, the Imperium isn't a single contiguous entity. It's not like, say, China, where you can drive from one end to the other. It's something closer to a chain of islands. There are inhabited sectors scattered throughout the galaxy, but by and large the galaxy is filled with "wilderness" areas.

I mean, heck, the Milkyway is supposed to have around 50 _billion_ planets. Recent discoveries point towards *500* billion. With as many as 500 million life-sustaining worlds.

And if you want to be technical, in the game every race is against every race. The closest thing to an alliance is the Eldar and the Tau, and the Eldar simply ignore the Tau.



MEQinc said:


> Depends on how you define modern I suppose. Seeing as recorded human history only stretches back around 10,000 years, that's kinda what I was going with.


Modern humanity began when we hit an (admittedly arbituary) point of evolutionary development. Scientists generally agree it's about 200,000 years ago. If you want to redefine what "modern human" is to you, feel free to. Just know there's an established definition already. 



MEQinc said:


> 1) Relative to recorded human history the Imperium has lasted for about 100% of it right now. No human empire has ever come close to matching that, I doubt most people can truly grasp how large a time-scale that is. The United States has existed for less than 0.03% of the time-scale the Imperium has, making it even less significant relative to the Imperium than the Imperium is to the Eldar. 10,000 years is a bloody long time. Only by comparing it to geographical, astronomical or fictional events can we get any grasp on how long it is.
> 2) The Eldar Empire didn't collapse over night, despite roughly the entirety of its territory exploding spectacularly in an instant. They still cling on, and are still a viable military threat in many ways (nearly 10,000 years latter). The Imperium is not going anywhere, it is not failing or fading or dying out. It has endured for longer than most humans can comprehend and it is not sitting on a powder keg like Slaanesh. It will continue to endure. That's all I'm trying to say.


And what I'm saying is that the Imperium, relative to some of the other races (Old Ones, Eldar) is a relative flicker.

You think 10,000 years is a long time? Imagine 60 _million_ years ago. The dinosaurs have, relatively speaking, been recently wiped out. 

Saying that the Imperium has been around for a grand 10,000 years and assuming that it will continue to exist simply because it has existed for 10,000 years doesn't make sense.

After all, the Eldar empire existed for 10,000 years and they fell.

And while the Eldar might still exist, their empire is no more. Just like there's a Mongolia still, but there's more definitely not a Mongolian Empire.



MEQinc said:


> Only Etherals are allowed political command responsibilities amongst the Tau. Given that humans (and other subjects) can't be Etherals, they can't be in political command.


Close, but not correct.

The Etherals are the top of the political chain. They are not the only link in it.

The Tau codex mentions that there are "officials" from the other castes that attend councils.



MEQinc said:


> As for military command, the Tau Empire codex doesn't contain any HQ units that aren't Tau and never once references a subject race in a position of authority. Given that they are all termed auxiliary units and auxiliary units, by definition, support and don't command I see no reason to believe why the Tau would have auxiliary units in command positions.


Because it's a game? The army is focused on the Tau. It'd be silly to have, say, a former Imperial Guard colonel leading the army. The Tau would lose their sense of uniqueness. 

I mean, we don't see any human auxiliaries in there either, do we? But we know those exist.



MEQinc said:


> Given that they are all termed auxiliary units and auxiliary units, by definition, support and don't command I see no reason to believe why the Tau would have auxiliary units in command positions.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I can accept that the Tau may not allow auxilaries to run their army. Or any significant gathering of force.
> ...


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## WarHammerman (Feb 19, 2012)

in Courage and Honor there is a scene where an Etherial is talking to some high ranking human official, and the human (and his aunt and a few others) are clearing being affected by the Etherial. They are drinking the kool-aid pretty deeply, until one person essentially snaps them out of it by screaming "ARE YOU CRAZY?"

So I believe that Etherial's could have 'the whammy' (whatever it may be: psyker powers, pheramones, hynosis, plot-devicium powered mind control BO) strong enough that they could affect the minds of an Astartes. 

Now, they'd also need to set up a proper situation. But being the manipulative jerks they can be, I'm sure they could with a little effort. (come swooping in to help vs orks, or nids, or chaos.)


Now here is something that occurred to me. So far, as far as we've seen and been told it appears that Tau are essentially Chaos-Proof (they're non-psykers so they aren't seen in the warp and we've seen no corrupted Tau). Would Astartes not see this as something good? That, in addition to a bit of unnatural mental influence, and a proper showing of respect, in my mind, could go a long way. 

(note: Show of respect. No real respect must be had here, but if you placate them with a shiny new Tau ship, a few weapons, and allow them to defend some converted human colonies from everything - and soak in the glory and honor of battle and protecting humans.)

I would imagine that IF a group of Astartes were to opt-in for cooperation of Tau it would be because they would have the Astartes do all the things they do now - just with the Tau there to help more. 

(Hey Space Marines, here let us put a hover-conversion on that Land Raider. Get you some proper Plasma weapons and would your scouts like some Pulse Rifles? Or Rail Rifles? Sure. You want some Shield Drones? I'm sure your Terminators with those lighting claws would like the added protection. Lets make that Hunter-Killer missile Markerlight-Capable. Oh, and we can equip these other termianors with Stealth Generators. Anyone want some Burst Cannons? No? Okay.)


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## Electric-Ashes (Mar 24, 2011)

MEQinc, there is one example of a non-tau subject leading tau subject.

Anghkor Prok, a kroot shaper.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Anghkor_Prok


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

hailene said:


> The Eldar dominated the galaxy for 60 _million_ years. To put that into perspective, if the Eldar ruled the galaxy for a day, then the Imperium has been around for a little less than 2 and a half minutes.
> 
> And they didn't abstain from fighting. They were so above the other races it was a joke.
> 
> The Eldar codex states that before the fall, "...no other race had posed a serious threat to their wealth or stability for countless mililena." Worrying about the human or Orks infesting the galaxy is like worrying about a mold infestation taking over your house.


On a side note:

I, for one, doubt that the Eldar "dominated" the galaxy for sixty million years. The lore is fairly inconsistent when it comes to the nature of the post-War in Heaven/Pre-Fall Eldar civilisation. The new Necron lore states that the ancient Eldar had established a strong enough civilisation to endure the War in Heaven (something the Old Ones failed to do) and pose enough of a threat to the Necron dynasties (post-C'tan sharding) to force them to descend into the _great sleep_. Yet the Eldar codex states "Over a million years ago, when their civilisation was at its height, the Eldar held dominion over a large portion of the galaxy..." Are we to believe it took the Eldar fifty-nine million years to go from a powerful civilisation capable of defeating the Necron dynasties (which, despite being weakened from their rebellion, were still significantly powerful) to the peak of their Empire?

For a civilisation to remain powerful and dominant, let alone intact, for sixty million years is beyond human comprehension. The old Necron lore was vague enough to pass this off by suggesting that the destruction wrought by the War in Heaven and the defeat of the Old Ones left the Eldar unguided and reverted into a barbaric society (we already know that the Eldar of the War in Heaven-era were lacking in technology and fought with swords/spears) who then took many millions of years to re-establish themselves and rise into a galactic-dominating empire, although that is conjecture on my part.

The Old Ones left many species behind, and the end of the War in Heaven and disappearance of the Necrons and C'tan probably provided opportunity for new life to flourish. The Eldar being the dominant civilisation for sixty million years seems not only to have been improbable, but quite simply impossible - at least in my opinion.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> On a side note:
> For a civilisation to remain powerful and dominant, let alone intact, for sixty million years is beyond human comprehension. The old Necron lore was vague enough to pass this off by suggesting that the destruction wrought by the War in Heaven and the defeat of the Old Ones left the Eldar unguided and reverted into a barbaric society *(we already know that the Eldar of the War in Heaven-era were lacking in technology and fought with swords/spears) *who then took many millions of years to re-establish themselves and rise into a galactic-dominating empire, although that is conjecture on my part.


I've always thought the swords and spears were metaphors. Like for example the 99 swords of Vaul were actually spaceships. That to me makes more sense than an interplanetary war fought with swords and spears.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

mob16151 said:


> I've always thought the swords and spears were metaphors. Like for example the 99 swords of Vaul were actually spaceships. That to me makes more sense than an interplanetary war fought with swords and spears.


Perhaps, I suppose it depends how much stock you put in the mythology and how literally you take the myths. But considering the Eldar were brought forth with the intention of combating the Necrons/C'tan with "warp-magicks" rather than with more conventional technologies, its not too much of a stretch to suggest they lacked advanced technology during that era.

_"...These events occurred aeons before the Eldar had mastered such things [plasma technology]. They fought with swords, spears and their own twisted version of faith. And it was found wanting..."_ are the words of Inquisitor Horst in this matter for anyone wondering.


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

guys, just saying, chill. Alot of what youre arguing about is honestly irrelevant. The Eldar clearly had a longer rule, but it doesnt really matter. Maybe Astartes would be interested for the technology, as stated above, but many of them would most likely see it as strange and probably evil. Remember, they basically pray to their bolters  not really, but they are holy in their opinions. They have blessed weapons often. I dont think that Astartes would defect completely, ever, for reasons I already stated, but they might perhaps take a bribe to leave them alone? Or maybe kill some orks... but i dont think they would ever completely defect.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> On a side note:
> 
> I, for one, doubt that the Eldar "dominated" the galaxy for sixty million years. The lore is fairly inconsistent when it comes to the nature of the post-War in Heaven/Pre-Fall Eldar civilisation. The new Necron lore states that the ancient Eldar had established a strong enough civilisation to endure the War in Heaven (something the Old Ones failed to do) and pose enough of a threat to the Necron dynasties (post-C'tan sharding) to force them to descend into the _great sleep_. Yet the Eldar codex states "Over a million years ago, when their civilisation was at its height, the Eldar held dominion over a large portion of the galaxy..." Are we to believe it took the Eldar fifty-nine million years to go from a powerful civilisation capable of defeating the Necron dynasties (which, despite being weakened from their rebellion, were still significantly powerful) to the peak of their Empire?
> .


I don't see the contradiction.

The Eldar dominated the galaxy for 60 million years. They reached their height of power 59 million years in. There was nothing hindering their development, nothing to slow their growth. So they grew and grew and grew.

Then a sudden event (ie the Fall) occurred and turned everything on its head. That or maybe the move towards hedonism reduced their overall power. It's not clear.

Regardless, I don't see any issues with the Eldar being the most powerful empire in the galaxy that continued to grow until some radical shift occurred that led to their decline.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

hailene said:


> I don't see the contradiction.
> 
> The Eldar dominated the galaxy for 60 million years. They reached their height of power 59 million years in. There was nothing hindering their development, nothing to slow their growth. So they grew and grew and grew.
> 
> ...


Do you not think that 59 million years is an extremely long (even incomprehensible) span of time for a civilisation to peak? Considering the Eldar were an established power at the end of the War in Heaven, enough so that the Necrons fled to avoid a renewed conflict with them, and considering we have several insights into the pre-Fall Eldar Empire, just what exactly did they achieve in those 59 million years before their civilisation descended into strife, anarchy and insanity? If they were an established and dominant power for 59 million years, why did it take so long for the indulgence and insanity that caused the Fall to take root?

One of the primary reasons why such behaviour was able to take root in Eldar society is because manual labour, soldiering and other menial tasks became irrelevant and unnecessary; the Eldar had developed technology to perform such tasks for them. Each individual Eldar could thus spend their entire lives entertaining every thought and whim, something which relatively quickly gave rise to the pleasure cults and the coalescing of Slaanesh. Considering the Necrons were not willing to renew hostilities with the Eldar after the defeat of both the Old Ones and C'tan, the Eldar must have possessed the power (and to an extent the technology) to stand toe-to-toe with the Necron dynasties - who themselves who had developed the most advanced technology of any race. Why it then took 59 million years for the Eldar to develop the technology to relieve themselves of manual labour is beyond me. 

_Codex: Dark Eldar_ informs us that the complete transformation of Eldar society that began with the murmurings of boredom and pleasure-seeking and which culminated with the Fall happened over the course of a few millennia. If such a vast transformation could occur (and a god birthed no less) in the space of millennia, what the hell was going on for the previous 59 million years?

PS. I know this isn't part of the central debate here, but it is an interesting one nonetheless.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Do you not think that 59 million years is an extremely long (even incomprehensible) span of time for a civilisation to peak? Considering the Eldar were an established power at the end of the War in Heaven, enough so that the Necrons fled to avoid a renewed conflict with them, and considering we have several insights into the pre-Fall Eldar Empire, just what exactly did they achieve in those 59 million years before their civilisation descended into strife, anarchy and insanity? If they were an established and dominant power for 59 million years, why did it take so long for the indulgence and insanity that caused the Fall to take root?
> 
> One of the primary reasons why such behaviour was able to take root in Eldar society is because manual labour, soldiering and other menial tasks became irrelevant and unnecessary; the Eldar had developed technology to perform such tasks for them. Each individual Eldar could thus spend their entire lives entertaining every thought and whim, something which relatively quickly gave rise to the pleasure cults and the coalescing of Slaanesh. Considering the Necrons were not willing to renew hostilities with the Eldar after the defeat of both the Old Ones and C'tan, the Eldar must have possessed the power (and to an extent the technology) to stand toe-to-toe with the Necron dynasties - who themselves who had developed the most advanced technology of any race. Why it then took 59 million years for the Eldar to develop the technology to relieve themselves of manual labour is beyond me.
> 
> ...


I can understand where you're coming from, but I'm thinking of it from a different direction.

From your view point, the Eldar created those labor saving devices and fell to decadence fairly quickly.

My belief is that the Eldar freed themselves from unnecessary tasks and started using that free time to improve themselves. And they continued to improve and improve. Increases in free time have led to periods of innovation in our history, why not the Eldar's?

And I don't understand why you find it difficult for a race to continue to better itself for 59 million years. It's not as if there's some sort of theoretical peak that a race gets to and then plateaus at. Theoretically, they could be getting stronger, smarter, and more efficient ever day. There is, technically, no limit to how far a race could improve itself. At least until you reach omnipotence, I guess. 

It's after 59 million years that they started falling into hedonism that got them. Before then, clearly, they were bettering themselves: improving their society, technology, what-have-you.
~~~

Sorry for the hasty, incomplete post, but I have to run to training. I'll be back in about 3 1/2 hours.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

hailene said:


> My belief is that the Eldar freed themselves from unnecessary tasks and started using that free time to improve themselves. And they continued to improve and improve. Increases in free time have led to periods of innovation in our history, why not the Eldar's?


Its certainly plausable, but the Eldar have never given off the impression of acting in complete unison for a greater good, especially not consistently for 59 million years. They seem remarkably comparable to humans in this regard; strife and civil wars had plagued the Eldar Empire, just as they have sometimes plagued the modern Craftworld sub-faction. The rise of the pleasure cults and devolution into decadence has always been portrayed as the inevitable result of the Eldar's freedom to indulge every whim combined with their supreme arrogance and that "none of them doubted that this state of affairs [Eldar dominance] would continue indefinitely". Increases in free time for the Eldar (due to the preceding reasons) after a few millennia resulted in the Fall. I simply cannot fathom why, if the Eldar existed as a coherent and dominant civilisation for 59-60 million years, the Fall didn't occur much, much sooner - like 58-9 million years sooner.

Perhaps I could realistically put this down to GW's consistent blunders with numbers. To be honest, the War in Heaven occuring 1 million rather than 60 million years ago would have been more logical.



hailene said:


> And I don't understand why you find it difficult for a race to continue to better itself for 59 million years. It's not as if there's some sort of theoretical peak that a race gets to and then plateaus at. Theoretically, they could be getting stronger, smarter, and more efficient ever day. There is, technically, no limit to how far a race could improve itself. At least until you reach omnipotence, I guess.
> 
> It's after 59 million years that they started falling into hedonism that got them. Before then, clearly, they were bettering themselves: improving their society, technology, what-have-you.


My difficulty to understand this comes from the sheer gulf of time. For a civilisation to endure for 59 million years is a phenomenon far beyond human comprehension. If they were "bettering themselves" for 59 million years, what suddenly changed for the vast majority of their species to so quickly embrace depravity, corruption and the pleasure-cults? We know the catalyst for their descent into corruption was their arrogance coupled with their ability to indulge every whim because technology replaced their need for menial tasks, manual labour and soldiering. Subsequently, their innate connection to the immaterium resulted in the rise of the Dark Prince. 

Out of those reasons, which one took 59 million years to manifest? Certainly not their innate connection to the warp; the Old Ones created them as such. Nor was it their advanced technology, they must have possessed such technologies to an extent by the end of the War in Heaven for the Necrons to flee rather than renew hostilities, or at least would have developed such technologies soon after. That leaves their arrogance, something which I imagine took much less than 59 million years to manifest. Thus I simply cannot fathom why it took so long for the Fall to occur. 



hailene said:


> I can understand where you're coming from, but I'm thinking of it from a different direction.
> 
> From your view point, the Eldar created those labor saving devices and fell to decadence fairly quickly.


Pretty much. But that is not the only example; all Eldar have an intrinsic connection to the immaterium yet the Dark Kin's connection has atrophied. This hugely significant alteration occured recently in a matter of millennia. How different were the Eldar of the War in Heaven-era I wonder?

I guess my point is that if so much can change in a matter of millennia, why does there seem to have been little change in the preceding 59 million years?


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

while totally off topic

I have to admit I see where Child-of-the-emperor is comming from 59 MILLION years is beyond a species comprehension - in fact taking humans / evolution into account here, we were not ****-sapiens less 200,000 years ago! and we will be ****-superior within the next 200,000 years... and on it will go.

to expect a race to stay biologically stagnant for a million years is hard to believe, but to be told 59 million years their race hasn't biologically evolved is a little absurd even if they lived 5 times longer than a human and have low birthrates.

I suspect its an Eldar ploy to make the rest of the galaxy think they are older than they really are - old for sure... but 60 million years old.... naaa.... maybe 1 million / one thousand Melania tops.... 

I think we need to card / id some of them old ones to double check!


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

So, marines in some cases seem to have a healthy respect for tau yeah? But even so they're not the type to submit to the will of something supposedly inferior, and xenos to boot. 

On the subject of the eldar civilization time frame thing, I find it perfectly plausible. Yes CotE, it is a very long time here. But these are eldar. Human perception of that time frame is all but irrelevant. 


EDIT: We also have no idea whether the eldar have in fact changed at all in that time, or if they were genofixed by the Old Ones (or even themselves) to remain in their current "perfect" form.


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

@Serpion5

Thanks for getting this very interesting thread back on track... hmmm geno-fixed.... I like the pausability of that =)


In regards to Tau / Marines one has to ask if there are enough circumstances where an already renegade chapter would join up - the fluff for that could be anything... finding a piece of the lost primarch what ever really..

I doubt that loyal marine chapters could be swayed, but a renegade company perhaps a chapter might in those right circumstances - it would be a little naive to consider that it would be impossible. don't get me wrong I always felt that the Space Marine has a predication for Chaos, with all its promises and hence why half of the known legions fell to its sway... 

but why not see a renegade faction of Marines fight for a Humans / Tau empire?


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## nevynxxx (Dec 27, 2011)

Just to throw something into the argument..... Don't forget how much longer an Eldar lifespan is.

Look at hoe we've progressed over 3 or 4 generations (the last 100 years), that same progression in terms of generations for Eldar would be closer to 8 or 9 hundred years....

Making that 69million, more like 6 million, or even 600 thousand..... To Eldar....


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Its certainly plausable, but the Eldar have never given off the impression of acting in complete unison for a greater good, especially not consistently for 59 million years. They seem remarkably comparable to humans in this regard; strife and civil wars had plagued the Eldar Empire, just as they have sometimes plagued the modern Craftworld sub-faction.


Do we even know what the Eldar did in the first 59 million years? I haven't read anything about them between the Necrons going to sleep and the events leading up to the fall. Could you enlighten me?



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The rise of the pleasure cults and devolution into decadence has always been portrayed as the inevitable result of the Eldar's freedom to indulge every whim combined with their supreme arrogance and that "none of them doubted that this state of affairs [Eldar dominance] would continue indefinitely". Increases in free time for the Eldar (due to the preceding reasons) after a few millennia resulted in the Fall. I simply cannot fathom why, if the Eldar existed as a coherent and dominant civilisation for 59-60 million years, the Fall didn't occur much, much sooner - like 58-9 million years sooner.


See, here's, I think, the meat of the issue for you. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You believe that the Eldar did manual labor up until the last few thousand years. When they ceased to do simple, menial tasks, they began their spiral towards hedonism. Right?

To me, that seems a little...odd. The Eldar Empire was an entity reckoned powerful enough to threaten the Necrons. I'm sure they could developed labor saving devices in less than 59,990,000 years, would you agree? On the outside, I would say that they could have eliminated labor intensive activities in 20,000 years. That would leave 59,970,000 years of them to do what they would like without falling to hedonism. The last 10,000 years I ascribe to their decline into physical pleasure.

It wasn't as if they developed automated farming and started partying that evening.

The whys or how they didn't fall sooner are not explained. We're left with the fact that they didn't.

And, really, if your society dominated the galaxy for 40 million years with no real threat in sight, near or far, wouldn't you grow a little arrogant?



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Perhaps I could realistically put this down to GW's consistent blunders with numbers. To be honest, the War in Heaven occuring 1 million rather than 60 million years ago would have been more logical.


It's the hand we've been delt. Gotta play with what you have.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Pretty much. But that is not the only example; all Eldar have an intrinsic connection to the immaterium yet the Dark Kin's connection has atrophied. This hugely significant alteration occured recently in a matter of millennia. How different were the Eldar of the War in Heaven-era I wonder?
> 
> I guess my point is that if so much can change in a matter of millennia, why does there seem to have been little change in the preceding 59 million years?


Keep in mind that evoluation and adaption are based upon the environment. If the environment remains steady, few changes occur.

It's when things go crazy that current traits get thrown out the window and other, formerly less adaptable traits, come to the fore.


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

SonofMalice said:


> I agree with Hailene, why not have a chapter ally with the tau? Their philosophy might appeal to more softhearted chapters. The philosophy of the tau could very well work for a war weary chapter and even more so for one that was outside of the Imperium's rule but not yet in the thrall of chaos. I kinda like the idea really, always had a soft spot in my heart for the greater good though.


I don't know if there's really such thing as a "soft hearted" chapter. Even the ones like the Salamanders which may care more for their human brethren are still fixated on the idea of them being _human_. 

What keeps the Tau in line is the influence of the Ethereals. The Greater Good is a sham designed to create a distinct hyper-nationalism (much like Germany of the 30s) amongst the population while confining them to carefully crafted socially/genetically engineered social castes. But, more importantly is the fact that The Greater Good, in its superficial form, doesn't appeal to much of what Space Marines would value. Space Marines have been there, and done that. They understand the way the galaxy works. They understand true sacrifice and they understand the pragmatism of the Imperium's oppressive policies.

Chaos seduces loyalists by appealing to the aspects of their nature that can be exploited. You see it all over the Heresy novels. Pride, marital prowess, strength, etc. The Greater Good appeals to these Utilitarian-esque ideals where everyone is happy and leads the best possible life. None of these things are really very relevant to a Space Marine. Space Marine candidates go through years and years of psychological conditioning and the excessively sentimental ones are going to be weeded out. Plus, Chaos can entrench itself slowly by either turning senior leadership or working its way through the lower ranks of Brothers. It can work quietly and insidiously. The Greater Good would have a very difficult time doing that.

However, you have to remember that loyal Space Marines _*very rarely*_ turn to Chaos. Sometimes the lore can seem to suggest that this is a regular occurrence, but go to the Lexicanum article for Renegade Space Marine Chapters, lol. Several of them aren't even renegades. Many of the Chaos warbands on the Traitor list are just splinter groups from the original traitor legions. Space Marines are well conditioned for their role. It's just that Chaos Marines are a playable faction and thus used as antagonists for the novels because reading about Space Marines crushing another small xenos incursion or rebellious world whose governor didn't want to pay its Tithes isn't exactly the most compelling material, lol. Remember, this is fluff designed specifically to sell more plastic toy soldiers. 

I mean, I don't think it would be _impossible_ for a Space Marine chapter to turn to the Tau, but you'd have to think long and hard about why and how this was plausible. Just like every time somebody suggests a DIY Space Marine chapter that was infected by Tyranids or Genestealers, you have to consider what a Space Marine Chapter is. It's a close knit fanatical military unit with _tremendous_ internal oversight. Nothing happens inside a Chapter by itself. There are a ton of "agencies" with a unified agenda, and they'd all check eachother. Think about the recruitment process alone as a Space Marine is brought up from a small child to a fully capable Marine. It's overseen by members of the Librarium (psychic screening and psychological indoctrination), the Chaplains (ideological and psychological indoctrination), the Apothecaries (gene seed screening, implantation process, general physical health), _and_ the Master of Recruits and his training staff. And it's going to be similar in pretty much all aspects of the Chapter's operation. Everybody's nose is in everybody else's business. And they all have their own agenda, which works in conjunction with the overall agenda of the Chapter. A chapter theoretically converts to the The Greater Good because there's a consensus to _allow it to_. That's a tough pill to swallow without a pretty watertight background.

However, nobody should tell you what to do with your plastic toy soldiers if you want to model them up with conversion bits from the Tau or something. But, just like the arguments for female Space Marines, or Genestealer Hybrid Space marines, if you want anyone to accept your background or reasoning, it's probably going to be a hard thing to do, lol. Admittedly, it's less of a stretch than the previous two.


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