# Emperor as powerful as Ruinous Powers?



## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

So, I know this has been discussed before, but I wanted to share my views on the subject.

Well, chaos gives gifts of power to their followers and I thought one day, doesn't the emperor help his followers as well, helping out them in they're times of need, and since there's a thousand battles with chaos going on at all times, doesn't that mean that the Emperor, alone is possibly helping out all his followers in all those battles?

And since he's helping out alone, and the imperium is still holding its own, doesn't that mean he's as powerful as the Chaos Gods?

My reasoning is that Chaos seems to have practically the same vehicles, same units, and also has the ability to summon daemons and call upon the power of the warp, so for the imperium to even have a chance, I think the Emperor must be helping.

Then again, Chaos is always fighting amongst themselves, and the Imperium is(most of the time) united, so that might be another reason why we're doing so-so against chaos.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I believe he is a match for them, or at least in the material realm seeing as how he took on the physical embodiment of all four of them (IE Horus).

Oh man this thread is like bleeding blood and Child of the emperor has got it's scent lol


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Oh god, this won't end on a happy note. lol


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

CommissarGhost said:


> So, I know this has been discussed before, but I wanted to share my views on the subject.
> 
> Well, chaos gives gifts of power to their followers and I thought one day, doesn't the emperor help his followers as well, helping out them in they're times of need, and since there's a thousand battles with chaos going on at all times, doesn't that mean that the Emperor, alone is possibly helping out all his followers in all those battles?
> 
> And since he's helping out alone, and the imperium is still holding its own, doesn't that mean he's as powerful as the Chaos Gods?


I think the Emperor is an extremely powerful psyker, by his unconquerable will he is holding back the worst depredations of Chaos, thus indirectly protecting the whole galaxy from Chaos. Just by this, we can tell he is powerful, very powerful infact. But as for him being on par with the Chaos Gods? Its very hard to tell. But here is what I would say:

Its very difficult to compare their power and abilities given they are of completely different realms, and are completely different entities.

The Emperor is the most powerful human psyker ever to have existed (possibly even the most powerful psyker in general). But ultimately he is a man (or at least a being of the Material), meaning he can die and he is effected by mortal conerns. 

The Chaos Gods in comparison are eternal, they have always existed and always will (whilst at the same time they have never existed at all) - for all intents and purposes they are gods drawing on an infinite power base. Every single man is tempted to some degree by these gods, who represent the base desires of mortals. They can project themselves (via their daemons) through warp rifts (which they can create) to swamp certain areas of the galaxy.

They are timeless beings, uneffected by the laws of physics or time and space. They exist in every time zone simultaneously, the past, present and future. Tzeentch for example through his _Hidden Library_ knows every thought of every creature through time and space, and through Fateweaver knows the definate future.

The Chaos Gods though are fickle, and represent Chaos in its purest form. From a mortal perspective this may seem like a weakness (constant infighting, working against even themselves etc), which it probably is from our perspective, they themselves prevent themselves from ultimate ascendency.

We also have some implication of comparison between the Emperor and the Chaos Gods from _A Thousand Sons_:



If it is taken as true, then the Emperor needed to bargain with the Warp Gods in order to achieve some of his goals, in my opinion likely being the creation of the Primarchs.

There is also the following quote:

"The Emperor knew of such creatures, and had bargained with them in ages past, but he never dared face one." - Page 176


Another comparison we have where the Chaos Gods indirectly fought the Emperor was the Horus Heresy, I suppose you could call it a Proxy War from the Chaos Gods' perspective. As im sure you know, the Chaos Gods corrupted Warmaster Horus which ultimately signed the death warrant of the Imperium and indefinately incapacitated the Emperor. The Chaos Space Marines may have lost the wars of the Horus Heresy and were forced to flee, but the Chaos Gods themselves triumphed throughout.

Ultimately its very hard to say, the Emperor is unbelievabely powerful, guiding the Astronomican, protecting the galaxy from the worst depridations of Chaos, acting as a father and god of humanity. But ultimately he endures in a state of constant agony to protect his Imperium, and is slowly and surely dying due to the schemes of the Chaos Gods.



CommissarGhost said:


> My reasoning is that Chaos seems to have practically the same vehicles, same units, and also has the ability to summon daemons and call upon the power of the warp, so for the imperium to even have a chance, I think the Emperor must be helping.
> 
> Then again, Chaos is always fighting amongst themselves, and the Imperium is(most of the time) united, so that might be another reason why we're doing so-so against chaos.


In general you are referring to the Chaos Space Marines there. The Imperium would likely triumph in an all-out war with the Traitor Marines, but the Chaos Astartes cannot be drawn into an all-out war unless its their wish to. In that regard though the Emperor doesn't really make a difference, Imperial forces vastly outnumber the mortal Chaos followers and are generally more disciplined, united and organised. And can also call upon a galaxy full of reinforcements.

That said though, the Chaos Astartes/Renegades do provide a massive threat to the Imperium (note 13th Black Crusade).

You have to differentiate between the Chaos Followers and Chaos itself though. They will often have different goals and purposes, and will often actively work against each other. So just think of them as two completley seperate factions occasionally allied.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Oh man this thread is like bleeding blood and Child of the emperor has got it's scent lol


I think i've been fair


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

I feel CotE hit the nail on the head, though I personally feel like a more definitive answer would be acceptable.

I think the Emperor, while powerful, is in a completely different league than the chaos gods. He's the worlds most powerful psyker, and they're living, "breathing" embodiments of the warp. The strength and influence the chaos gods can exert in their own realm far outshines what the Emperor can do in his.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Khorne's physical embodiement would destroy everything! Horus would get whipped!

Not only would he kill the emperor with one hit, but his sword is as big as the sky ( Source: in the invasion of Ghesto, he cut a giant rift in the sky allowing a sea of blood to fall through. -BRB)! That means khorne's bigger then a Titan!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I believe that the emperor was held back by the fact that he was "human." There is only so much power that a biological organism can focus before the shear amount of energy that is being dealt with destroys them.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Except Khorne can never physically manifest in the Materium, all the Chaos Gods are a part of the Warp far more so than daemons.


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## Lord Hunsadia (Apr 30, 2009)

There was a theory in my local GW that the Emperor may have been a fifth God of Chaos that was called into Existence by the Shamon's mass sacrifice, then somehow bound in human flesh.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

I've always looked at it as the Emperor and the Chaos Gods are equal. Both can achieve pretty much the same ends but in different ways. 

As for power I would say that each Chaos god is weaker individually than the Big E mainly because they have a very singular focus to their powers. The Emperor can do many things to an amazing degree so any single god can't challenge him. However united the Chaos Gods can at least match him and probably overwhelm him.


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## deathwatch_v (Mar 18, 2010)

I like this idea of the Emperor being the 5th god of chaos. I've never really thought about it like that before but it kinda in a way makes sense. I mean hes kinda the chaos god that keeps the other chaos goods chaotic...if that makes sense. Hes there opposite, the're in the warp hes in the material world, if there was no emperor then there would only be the chaos gods...and would that satisfy them?

And i don't know the answer to this but do we know how old the emperor really is? Like we no he came to re unite Terra and then eventually traveled out to reclaim Man's galaxy but who says he wasn't around before then? 40k novels make reference to our real time period in the're stories as being...well 38 000 years ago but if thats true then jesus would have been in their timeline aswell and that means that maybe jesus was the emperor, or another one of his sons.

I know what i have said is REALLY far fetched, borderline silly but still possible no?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

The emperor could not be a chaos god if he was from the material world. Remember chaos is from the immaterium and so is not from the material realm.

The originis of the Emperor however, prove that he is indeed a man born from Terra. He was reincarnated into a child from the psychers that lead Terra to success. This is why I find "The Star Child Theory" perfectly legitamite possibility, however, there would need to be a living being that could sit on the Thrown until the Emperor was able to grow up to his full potential.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Apparently the Emperor was born around 8,000 BC in Persia (Horus Rising), I'm not sure if the Starchild and Shamanic origins are still official background for the Emperor.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Apparently the Emperor was bron around 8,000 BC in Persia (Horus Rising), I'm not sure if the Starchild and Shamanic origins are still official background for the Emperor.


Not Persia, Anatolia.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I was under the impression Anatolia was part of Persia but after checking it was simply part of the Persian Empire at one point, but geographically it's western-most part of Asia comprising 2/3rds of modern day Turkey.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Baron, you are somewhat correct but he would not have been Persian.The Persians didn't rule till 550 B.C.. And the starchild is growing in the warp already, once the emperor's mind fully transfers to the warp it would probably awaken.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> And the starchild is growing in the warp already


Source/Evidence?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It’s said thought-out the fiction that the souls of humans go to the emperor, if that true and the starchild is the emperor then they would be going to it so it would be growing. I admit though it's more of a hunch but it seems reasonable.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> It’s said thought-out the fiction that the souls of humans go to the emperor, if that true and the starchild is the emperor then they would be going to it so it would be growing. I admit though it's more of a hunch but it seems reasonable.


 Theories... Mere guesses as to what GW will do with the fluff, not in any way a viable argument.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Dude, this entire thread is based of pure conjecture. Provide an argument as to why it is not a viable option.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

I'm pretty sure the starchild and sensai arguments originated from GW themselves. They may not be true, but then again, is anything in 40K true, strictly speaking? Even the fluff "facts" come from unreliable narrators, so nothing's set in stone. The theories of the Emperor's origins and reincarnation are perfectly valid, if not certain.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I have a good question. So lets say the emperor does gets reincarnated, gets reborn and blah blah blah, he would still have to go back to his golden toilet to close the webway right?

Of course... if he can pull a webway closing spell out of his ass. Maybe make another deal with the runious powers... maybe Malice.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I would assume he could close the rift....... if not then he would need to plop his ass back down I suppose.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

If he couldn't close the rift when he was forced to sit on the Throne for close to a decade why would he be able to now?


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## Carna (Mar 13, 2008)

From what I gathered in Collected Visions, it wasn't so much that Him and Him alone could close the rifts, but the techpriests and helpers were closing them aswell. So they should be closed by now, surely lol


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Well if his reincarnation was created with 100,000s of more pyschers, than it would make him a stronger reincarnation of his former self, and potentially a more powerful pyscher... haha theoretically speaking of course. I personally do not believe in the "Star Child Theory" but I do find it as a possibility though.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Carna said:


> From what I gathered in Collected Visions, it wasn't so much that Him and Him alone could close the rifts, but the techpriests and helpers were closing them aswell. So they should be closed by now, surely lol


Except they couldn't manage to close the rift(s) before they were overrun that's why the Emperor took to the Throne in the first place- it's not like there's any Imperials in the human webway to this day.


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

Wow guys, all this information is great.

I've been thinking. You know how the Church say that only those who are selfless and generally have good traits like loyalty and such go to the Emperor? Perhaps that is because the Emperor is combining with those souls to form the Star Child, or at least a God of the Warp who has those particular "pure" traits, like how the Eldar, with their decadence and excess, formed Slaanesh, the god of excess. Perhaps the Emperor is acting as a filter, so that if a god does form from humanity, it isn't another evil chaos god.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Is it possible to close the web way on earth by a "pylon" from the C'tan or even get an artifact like the one the Necrons created like in Dark Creed. It would be able to close any warp like activity right? It sounds like the C'tan could play a role in closing the web way some how on earth. That way, if the Star Child Theory was possible, then, there would be a way to close the web way so that the emperor could jump around kicking chaos ass.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

These talks are bringing us close to the end, I think. I doubt very much that GW would ever advance the storyline much further than they have now, but any theories on how it all will end? Who will come out on top? I know I have a few ideas, but humanity ain`t gonna be happy about it.
After all, the Emperor may not resurrect in time. The nids and necrons aren`t gonna wait forever.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

We can guess from revelations how the battle on Terra will go down. But what about everyone else? The emperor _might_ save humanity from chaos, but what about the eldar rhana dandra, will that be related or seperate entirely? Will all the resultant warp activity disturb the void dragon on mars with no guardian to replace Dalia? Will the outsider escape from his prison? Will the tyranids be stopped? What will become of the tau empire? I am a little off topic, sorry about that but I am under the impression that if the emperor was as powerful as the gods, he would not have been laid low by one of their mortal puppets. Frankly, there are greater concerns than them to be worried about.:scare:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Is it possible to close the web way on earth by a "pylon" from the C'tan or even get an artifact like the one the Necrons created like in Dark Creed. It would be able to close any warp like activity right? It sounds like the C'tan could play a role in closing the web way some how on earth. That way, if the Star Child Theory was possible, then, there would be a way to close the web way so that the emperor could jump around kicking chaos ass.


_If_ such a device was discovered and brought to Terra, it might well seal, or at least temporarily close the Webway gate, but it would also prevent the Astronomican from working, the Emperor from using his own powers and essentially block Terra off from the rest of the galaxy, thus dooming the Imperium.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

haha, so i guess they wouldn't get any chaos ass kicking.:cray:


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## vipertaja (Mar 20, 2010)

I didn't read the whole thread but here's a thing I thought I'd bring to the table.
The OP mentioned that the chaos powers are fighting amongst themselves and that is of course a core part of their nature.

I think the problem comparing the emperor to the chaos powers is also that by their nature the chaos gods are obsessed with playing games while the imperium has a concentrated effort to stand it's ground at this point, holding it's borders.

When the chaos gods fight the imperium or each other, it's more akin to a game of chess to them. That's just the way they are.


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## Constatine_Valdor (Feb 15, 2009)

I don't know if this could be possible but cannot it be closed calling the Eldar and closing it with the same things they did for closing their homeworlds when the Eye of Terror was created??


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Well the Eldar only sealed their own gateways, so they couldn't seal a webway rift nor would they have the required to knowledge to seal the gateway constructed by the Emperor- which is essentially permanently open with only the Emperor's powers keeping it sealed against daemons.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Well the Eldar only sealed their own gateways, so they couldn't seal a webway rift nor would they have the required to knowledge to seal the gateway constructed by the Emperor- which is essentially permanently open with only the Emperor's powers keeping it sealed against daemons.


How would the Eldar, _masters _of the webway, not know how to close a mistake caused by someone only beginning to learn the basics of the Webway's construction?

I think they just don't see a purpose in sealing it, since the hole is probably closed off against any of their craftworlds.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

They're the masters of manipulating their own gateways into the Webway but the Eldar have no other control over the mechanics of the webway, they can neither repair rifts nor make new extensions- so the closing of a gateway of foreign origins in a new section of webway wouldn't likely be something that falls into their realm of knowledge.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Indeed. You have to remember that the Webway is a dangerous place, even for the Eldar (albeit still safer than the warp). They are no longer its masters, merely its most common users. More and more parts of the Webway are falling into ruin or being overrun by Chaos as time progresses. No Eldar even possess complete maps of the realm.

Since the fall, the Webway is dying a slow but sure death. And in regards to the Imperial Webway, its quite probable that the Eldar weren't even aware that the Emperor was hacking into their realm. Could they seal the rift of the Imperial Webway gate on Terra? No, that part is completely unaccesable to them as its flooded by Chaos.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I read somewhere that Chaos doesn't manifest too well in the Webway since it's neither in the Warp or material realm, hence why it's such a good hiding spot for the Dark Eldar or is it just Slaanesh's hunger can't 'reach' them there?

In any case the whole idea of Chaos getting a foothold in the Webway sounds dumb to me, it defeats the whole purpose of why it was created to begin with imo. I don't mind that they can manifest there _temporarily _as in the case with the Emperor's scientists getting butchered but staying there and drinking some koolaid?

Chaos needs some toning down.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I read somewhere that Chaos doesn't manifest too well in the Webway since it's neither in the Warp or material realm, hence why it's such a good hiding spot for the Dark Eldar or is it just Slaanesh's hunger can't 'reach' them there?
> 
> The whole idea of Chaos getting a foothold in the Webway sounds dumb to me, it defeats the whole purpose of why it was created to begin with imo.
> 
> Chaos needs some toning down.


The Webway is about checks and balances, carefully laid out wards to prevent the Warp swamping its hallways. The Fall of the Eldar caused large parts of the Webway to break down and allow the Warp into its boundaries, essentially becoming part of the Warp. Presumably Daemons and other Warp entities can exist in the unsealed parts of the Webway just as easily as they can in the Warp.

How does Chaos having a foothold in the Webway sound dumb? The Webway by some sources, is essentially just a road network through the warp, when seals and wards (which keep it seperate from the warp) break down, what do you expect to flood in, Sunflowers?!


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Chaos Gods in comparison are eternal, they have always existed and always will (whilst at the same time they have never existed at all)
> They are timeless beings, uneffected by the laws of physics or time and space. They exist in every time zone simultaneously, the past, present and future. Tzeentch for example through his _Hidden Library_ knows every thought of every creature through time and space, and through Fateweaver knows the definate future.


I was wondering about this, surely there must have been a time before any sentient life existed in the universe when the 3 older chaos powers (Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle) didn't exist, and they were gradually formed out of the associated feelings reflected in the warp. 

For that matter did the chaos powers exist during the battles between the Old Ones and the C'Tan/Necrons as there is no mention of them and I'm sure they would have tried to influence the war in some way? If I had to guess then the chaos powers only formed once the Old Ones creations (formed in desperation during the final battles against the Necrons) started to have an effect on the warp due to their increasingly powerful psychic powers. (I read this effect somewhere in the Necrons codex)

Regarding creating a "chaos" power I always wondered why there was only ones which represented so called "evil" things and why good feelings were always corrupted into evil things so anything anyone ever does supports a chaos power in some way:

For example: Any martial honour and martial brotherhood feelings support Khorne - Oh dear for any warriors in the galaxy then.

Any feelings trying to improve the world for people, make the galaxy a nicer place supports Tzeentch - Oh dear for Roboute Guilliman and Sanguinius (for example) who always wanted to bring peace and prosperity via change

Anyone who wants to make a difference before they die, help sick people and not give up against all the odds supports Nurgle - Oh dear for any ill people who don't give up and are determined to help others before they die, any hospices who care for ill people

Any feelings of love, compassion and sexual attraction between couples support Slaanesh.

Doesn't leave a lot to create a "good" power of the warp out of :cray:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> I was wondering about this, surely there must have been a time before any sentient life existed in the universe when the 3 older chaos powers (Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle) didn't exist, and they were gradually formed out of the associated feelings reflected in the warp.
> 
> For that matter did the chaos powers exist during the battles between the Old Ones and the C'Tan/Necrons as there is no mention of them and I'm sure they would have tried to influence the war in some way? If I had to guess then the chaos powers only formed once the Old Ones creations (formed in desperation during the final battles against the Necrons) started to have an effect on the warp due to their increasingly powerful psychic powers. (I read this effect somewhere in the Necrons codex)


I was talking about events from the perspective of the Warp, rather than looking at events Chronologically.

In the Warp past, present and future are blended together in an incomprehensible existence. Thus meaning that the Chaos Gods have always existed regardless of what was occuring in Realspace at the time.

So from our perspective in Realspace, Slaanesh was birthed in M30 at the moment of the Fall of the Eldar - yet in the warp she had always existed.



zerachiel76 said:


> Regarding creating a "chaos" power I always wondered why there was only ones which represented so called "evil" things and why good feelings were always corrupted into evil things so anything anyone ever does supports a chaos power in some way
> 
> For example: Any martial honour and martial brotherhood feelings support Khorne - Oh dear for any warriors in the galaxy then.
> 
> ...


The Chaos Gods do not represent evil emotions in any way. Firstly because there is no such thing as 'evil' or 'bad' emotions, we as humans may see certain actions or emotions as unproductive to society but that doesn't make them inherently bad.

The Chaos Gods represent the mortal mind unrestrainted and free from social restraints or any external influences. Thus emotions are pushed to the lengths and extremes that our base desires dictate. Love for example becomes lust and excess.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Webway by some sources, is essentially just a road network through the warp, when seals and wards (which keep it seperate from the warp) break down, what do you expect to flood in, Sunflowers?!


Hhhhhhhhhh........ indeed.... evil crazed blood craving plague spreading sadist SUNFLOWERS!:scare:


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

EDIT: never mind replied without realising there were 2 pages 

EXTRA EDIT: read the 2nd page....

In support of Child:
The Webway was created so traversing the Warp would be considerably safer and more reliable (though also slower), but it still remains within or on the borders of the immaterium so a breach in it would allow Chaos to come flooding in- the effect would be like a permanent warp rift on a planet.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Just wondering, if in the event the emperor became a god, one with sufficient power to defeat the chaos gods, couldn't he create something along the lines of anti-daemons? If so he could use them to take back the human webway and secure Terra. This is a BIG if though I must admit.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

If the Emperor was able to fully defeat the Chaos Gods (something I personally believe to be impossible) then the need for the Webway would be greatly lessened, without the Chaos Gods 99.9% of all Daemons would disappear and the currents of the immaterium would be much calmer.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I don't see him destroyng them, merely preventing them from taking the material realm. I don't expect the warp to ever be truely rid of them.


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## Garven Dreis (Oct 26, 2009)

It'd be almost impossible to 'destroy' the Chaos Gods, as they are all emotions made sentient due the large amount of emotion in the galaxy. You could only defeat them.

I'd say 'almost' because you could just eradicate ALL life from the Materium, THIS action would theoretically calm the Immaterium, and pretty much undoing the war between the Old Ones and the Star Gods. The Tyranids look set at doing this, which is why all life (both Chaos and Other) should have vested interests in defeating the Tyranids.

Remember that the power the Emperor draws upon is linked to the power of the Immaterium, which is why he was able to imprison the C'tan Void Dragon on Mars. If the C'tan suceed in finally seperating the Materium and the Immaterium, then the Imperium and pretty much spacefaring grinds to a halt completely. Also, you have the Eye of Terror, where the Immaterium meets the Materium. This would also be a factor in whether you can seperate the two realities.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Remember that the power the Emperor draws upon is linked to the power of the Immaterium, which is why he was able to imprison the C'tan Void Dragon on Mars. If the C'tan suceed in finally seperating the Materium and the Immaterium, then the Imperium and pretty much spacefaring grinds to a halt completely. Also, you have the Eye of Terror, where the Immaterium meets the Materium. This would also be a factor in whether you can seperate the two realities.[/QUOTE]


The c`tan plan to seal off the warp involves the gradual evolution of humans into pariahs. It is milennia away yet, but the c`tan are immortal and time means little to them. i believe the cadian pylons also play a part, if only to contain the eye of terror until the plan is complete or well underway.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> I don't see him destroyng them, merely preventing them from taking the material realm. I don't expect the warp to ever be truely rid of them.


The amount of time the chaos powers were conscious is like a grain of sand compared to the amount of time they didn't 'exist'. 

So I think they can revert back to their dormant state if the right steps are taken.

The 'Great Work' is simply a means of reversing the _damage _brought upon the immaterium by the new psychically-attuned races, back to the way things were before the Old Ones upset the balance of the universe at the time.

In my opinion, the creation of such races simply as a means of combating the Ctan/Necrons was most probably the most hasty and ill planned decision the Old Ones ever came up with.

Their desperate search of a means to defeat the Ctan/Necrons right there and then without looking to the future and taking their usual super slow approach to all things, as I mentioned elsewhere, led to their unintentional creation of the Chaos Powers.

Had they not have encountered the Necrons/Ctan, they most likely could have predicted the rise of Chaos and taken steps to remove them from the equation and produce stable and bright civilizations.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I am aware that they are young but I fail so see how that was relevant.

Also I don't think the old ones ever could have predicted the creation of the gods since they were born hundreds of thousands of years after their fall. And even if they could I was talking about the emperor or the starchild not the old ones. 

If they were dormant they would still exist meaning that the warp is still not rid of them.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> I am aware that they are young but I fail so see how that was relevant.
> 
> Also I don't think the old ones ever could have predicted the creation of the gods since they were born hundreds of thousands of years after their fall. And even if they could I was talking about the emperor or the starchild not the old ones.
> 
> If they were dormant they would still exist meaning that the warp is still not rid of them.


Time as many have already said has no bearing on the warp, so it's not impossible to see into the very distant future.

They were like a lump of un-molded clay, the psychic races molded them into conscienceless, prior to that they were just absorbing emotions and storing them for later, like a human fetus absorbing nutrients and using them to grow eventually. So yes they 'always' existed, but it doesn't matter because it's when they regained consciousness that made them dangerous/powerful and this growth was fueled by the creation of the Old Ones.

The Great Work can probably revert them back to this state if they get cut off from their food supply and even if they remain as powerful it wouldn't matter because they wouldn't be able to affect the material realm.

Again like others have stated, the knowledge the Chaos Powers have of the material realm is limited whereas the Ctan can be said to be masters of the material realm, knowing all its secrets while they are not as familiar with the inner workings of the warp as the Chaos Powers.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Time as many have already said has no bearing on the warp, so it's not impossible to see into the very distant future.
> 
> They were like a lump of un-molded clay, the psychic races molded them into conscienceless, prior to that they were just absorbing emotions and storing them for later, like a human fetus absorbing nutrients and using them to grow eventually. So yes they 'always' existed, but it doesn't matter because it's when they regained consciousness that made them dangerous/powerful and this growth was fueled by the creation of the Old Ones.


But thats still looking at things chronologically.

The Chaos Gods were in the same state during the War in Heaven as they are now in M41, as well as not existing at all and existing in infinitely different ways. 

1. Slaanesh existed as the Dark Prince, Bane of the Eldar and Lord of Pleasure before even the Eldar existed to birth her.
2. Slaanesh doesn't exist at all in M41. 

Both those statements are false from a chronological/Real Space perspective but are completely correct from the Warp's perspective, which is all that matters in this regard.

So while they were a 'lump of unmoulded clay' during the War in Heaven, they were also the Great Lords of Chaos (as we know and love them in M41) during the War in Heaven, but also simply didn't exist at all, and never have.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Also, elimination of their worshipers would not rid you off the infestation. People will still kill people, people will always hope for better things, people will probably not want to die and people will still....... people so they will always have fuel. And to CotE, if they have a moment of creation they have a set start point so they have not always existed although it does seem although the warp does progress at different rates I could see them being born after the creation of the c'tan and still being much older. However, I don't see them actually existing before the other.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> And to CotE, if they have a moment of creation they have a set start point so they have not always existed although it does seem although the warp does progress at different rates I could see them being born after the creation of the c'tan and still being much older. However, I don't see them actually existing before the other.


Your still looking at things chronologically!

Think outside the box. Time and Space do not exist within the warp - therefore past, present and future are meaningless concepts as they are all blended together into a bizarre and incomprehensible existence.

This means that the Chaos Gods are eternal and have always existed and always will. Each god has a 'birthdate' from our perspective, eg Slaanesh in M30 during the Fall of the Eldar. But in the Warp Slaanesh had always existed, simply because time has no bearing, past, present and future are mixed and things don't have to happen causally or chronologically within its boundaries (It even says all this in the Daemons codex).


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## Zenith_of_Mind (Mar 12, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Your still looking at things chronologically!
> 
> Think outside the box. Time and Space do not exist within the warp - therefore past, present and future are meaningless concepts as they are all blended together into a bizarre and incomprehensible existence.
> 
> This means that the Chaos Gods are eternal and have always existed and always will. Each god has a 'birthdate' from our perspective, eg Slaanesh in M30 during the Fall of the Eldar. But in the Warp Slaanesh had always existed, simply because time has no bearing, past, present and future are mixed and things don't have to happen causally or chronologically within its boundaries (It even says all this in the Daemons codex).


Wrong. Time exists in the Warp, only it flows different than in material realm. If Chaos gods have always existed, how come various material refer to the birth of Slaanesh, for example? Also, I think it's told that, in the beginning, the warp was a pure, safe place, but over the countless millenia it has become corrupt by emotions of sentient races (notably Eldar and Humans). 
Also, if Chaos gods had the power to freely manipulate time what prevents them from going back in time (viz. emerging from the Warp in a certain time period and location) and killing the Emperor before he founded the Imperium, or do anything else they set they mind to?


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

I also go with the theory that the Emperor, while amazingly powerful and intelligent, is not quite as powerful as all Chaos Gods combined. However, he does have the home field advantage on the physical plane and that seems to be enough to tip the scale over.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Your still looking at things chronologically!
> 
> Think outside the box. Time and Space do not exist within the warp - therefore past, present and future are meaningless concepts as they are all blended together into a bizarre and incomprehensible existence.
> 
> This means that the Chaos Gods are eternal and have always existed and always will. Each god has a 'birthdate' from our perspective, eg Slaanesh in M30 during the Fall of the Eldar. But in the Warp Slaanesh had always existed, simply because time has no bearing, past, present and future are mixed and things don't have to happen causally or chronologically within its boundaries (It even says all this in the Daemons codex).


Let's look at it this way then, when did the Immaterium shift from being a calm passageway into what we see in WH40k?

While it can be argued that the warp was one of the first things to appear in the universe, something that indicates that there was a starting point, at one point in time there was nothing in the universe capable of emitting any form of emotion whatsoever.

The Chaos powers feed on emotional energy and nothing else, and this is only from entities that produce a psychic aura that registers in the warp, and as we know not every entity in the WH universe possess any psychic energy whatsoever and again we can be sure that the earliest forms of life, be them bacterial or whatnot produced no pyschic energy period.

The Ctan come to mind.

Also referring back to your earlier point 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Your still looking at things chronologically!
> 
> Think outside the box. Time and Space do not exist within the warp - therefore past, present and future are meaningless concepts as they are all blended together into a bizarre and incomprehensible existence.


The material realm and the warp are intertwined, the former influencing the latter with psychic energy and the latter storing said energy and serving as a vast vault of power.

If something so specific and unnecessary to the basic formula of life (possessing psychic energy is not a crucial part of the life formula) has such a vast influence on the warp, surely a aspect of the universal nature of the material realm which is indeed crucial and a very important part of the life formula would also have a major influence in the warp (time).

Without time there we be no decay, no fighting, and ultimately no emotion. So I fail to see how the warp began to revolve around emotions stemming purely from the physical realm and nothing else.


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## deathwatch_v (Mar 18, 2010)

I believe, and its only my opinion, that the idea of time in the warp is a human idea. Humans just cant except that things do or don't have a beginning or and end. Its not a case of why don't the gods go back and kill the Emperor, coz they cant go back or forward its a place of every reality and no reality, of all time and no time.

I think of time in the warp like Physics in the warp. The planets that got sucked into the eye of terror and then where remodeled by the primarchs and demons in whateva image they wanted still resembling planets (being round and having gravity) but this is because humans and the former Primarchs knew of worlds that way and so thought thats how they look.

If demons wanted their planets to no longer be bound to the laws of physics, which in some cases they aren't, then it would be different, instantly.

Its like in the thousand sons novel, the demon that confronts Magnus on Aghoru took its form from the scary things that the Aghoruns had been in fear of, because thats what it thought was scary. 

Time acts in the warp only to facilitate Human and other biological life in the 40k universe's understanding of what goes on in the Immaterium. Chaos gods and daemons don't need time to conceptualize what there doing so it doesn't exist. But humans trying to understand what there brains cannot, try to denote time to things that in their realm has and has not existed, forever or never. 

Its confusing, but its my opinion that you ask a question. Does the warp or daemons have or need time to function, or is it a human idea trying to understand the warp and its workings with brains that cannot fathom timelessness?


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## Commissar Ploss (Feb 29, 2008)

deathwatch_v said:


> I believe, and its only my opinion, that the idea of time in the warp is a human idea. Humans just cant except that things do or don't have a beginning or and end. Its not a case of why don't the gods go back and kill the Emperor, coz they cant go back or forward its a place of every reality and no reality, of all time and no time.
> 
> I think of time in the warp like Physics in the warp. The planets that got sucked into the eye of terror and then where remodeled by the primarchs and demons in whateva image they wanted still resembling planets (being round and having gravity) but this is because humans and the former Primarchs knew of worlds that way and so thought thats how they look.
> 
> ...


that's one hell of a solid argument. I commend you for it. 

CP


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

deathwatch_v said:


> I believe, and its only my opinion, that the idea of time in the warp is a human idea. Humans just cant except that things do or don't have a beginning or and end. Its not a case of why don't the gods go back and kill the Emperor, coz they cant go back or forward its a place of every reality and no reality, of all time and no time.
> 
> I think of time in the warp like Physics in the warp. The planets that got sucked into the eye of terror and then where remodeled by the primarchs and demons in whateva image they wanted still resembling planets (being round and having gravity) but this is because humans and the former Primarchs knew of worlds that way and so thought thats how they look.
> 
> ...


Good stuff I agree but why do we assume that the warp (not the Chaos powers) is some sort of mythological creature that defies all logic and has no beginning nor end?

Honestly I would agree with everything you said if the immaterium wasn't peaceful in the times of the Old Ones. 

True, humans cannot comprehend the notion that for example the infinite vastness of space or that time did not exist at one point but I'm not arguing whether or not time exists in the immaterium.

I'm asking as to why the warp seemingly 'chose', as if it in itself was a living and breathing thing, to revolve around emotions which in turn stem from only psychic beings in the material realm, where time is the most crucial aspect of the very life that sustains the warp, and nothing else.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Zenith_of_Mind said:


> Wrong. Time exists in the Warp, only it flows different than in material realm.


Arguable either way. But what are you basing that on?

If its based on the concept of Warp Travel, then that is hardly a solid argument because it involves Real Space.



Zenith_of_Mind said:


> If Chaos gods have always existed, how come various material refer to the birth of Slaanesh, for example?


Did you not read my post?



Malus Darkblade said:


> Let's look at it this way then, when did the Immaterium shift from being a calm passageway into what we see in WH40k?


From our perspective in the years following the War in Heaven. But within the warp the Chaos Gods had always existed, and the warp was always Chaotic - Whilst at the same time being calm and pure. We just have to put it down to the fact that we cannot comprehend such a thing.



Malus Darkblade said:


> While it can be argued that the warp was one of the first things to appear in the universe, something that indicates that there was a starting point, at one point in time there was nothing in the universe capable of emitting any form of emotion whatsoever.


Yes of course there was a starting point from a chronological/Real Space perspective. But in the Warp there wasn't, because time/causality is not a concept.

And on a side note, personally I've always considered the theory that the Warp is where Real Space actually originated from. Partly based on the Well of Eternity.



Malus Darkblade said:


> The Chaos powers feed on emotional energy and nothing else, and this is only from entities that produce a psychic aura that registers in the warp, and as we know not every entity in the WH universe possess any psychic energy whatsoever and again we can be sure that the earliest forms of life, be them bacterial or whatnot produced no pyschic energy period.


Well they also feed on Souls 



deathwatch_v said:


> I believe, and its only my opinion, that the idea of time in the warp is a human idea. Humans just cant except that things do or don't have a beginning or and end. Its not a case of why don't the gods go back and kill the Emperor, coz they cant go back or forward its a place of every reality and no reality, of all time and no time.
> 
> I think of time in the warp like Physics in the warp. The planets that got sucked into the eye of terror and then where remodeled by the primarchs and demons in whateva image they wanted still resembling planets (being round and having gravity) but this is because humans and the former Primarchs knew of worlds that way and so thought thats how they look.
> 
> ...


Sounds reasonable to me


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Your still looking at things chronologically!
> 
> Think outside the box. Time and Space do not exist within the warp - therefore past, present and future are meaningless concepts as they are all blended together into a bizarre and incomprehensible existence.
> 
> This means that the Chaos Gods are eternal and have always existed and always will. Each god has a 'birthdate' from our perspective, eg Slaanesh in M30 during the Fall of the Eldar. But in the Warp Slaanesh had always existed, simply because time has no bearing, past, present and future are mixed and things don't have to happen causally or chronologically within its boundaries (It even says all this in the Daemons codex).


Time does not exist in our realm either, it is relative remember? We are the only things that give time meaning because to us it matters. However, to a being that lives forever time is meaningless. That is what I believe they mean by time having no relevance to the gods. Although I suppose that emotion has existed for as long as beings have been around to feel it so, in a way, I suppose they are eternal but I believe that they developed consciousness at a certain point.


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## Zenith_of_Mind (Mar 12, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Did you not read my post?


I did, and I disagree. You said:



> Time and Space do not exist within the warp - therefore past, present and future are meaningless concepts as they are all blended together into a bizarre and incomprehensible existence.This means that the Chaos Gods are eternal and have always existed and always will.


First, this argument requires a big leap of faith. If the Warp is incomprehensible existence, then there is no use discussing it, because we'll never understand it. 

Second, what you say is that the Chaos gods have always existed. This is not true, because it's said in the lore that once upon a time there were no chaos gods and the Warp was pure. Then in one point in time (from our perspective) they appeared (not at the same time, of course). Now, if they have existed from before, they could have influenced the material world ages ago (by sending daemons to kill people or whatever), but this is not the case. Why? Because they didn't exist before that.

Take Slaneesh for example. He (?) was born because of the lustful ways of the Eldar (in short). So the negative emotions(psychic energy) of the Eldar slowly "fed" him until he was ready to be "born", so to speak. That happened around M30. From that point Slaneesh is active and busy with corrupting people and all the things Chaos does. Now, if you say that he always existed, how come he never appeared before, prior to the Fall of Eldar, to wreak havoc? And why it is said that he was born after accumulating those emotions? If he was always there, it would be irrelevant if Eldar did what they did or not.


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## Twisted (Mar 11, 2010)

There's a lot of talk about time and the warp, which might best be discussed in a different thread, but more than likely the warp has no time.

I'm no physicist but as I understand it time is partly down to movement. But in the warp there is no movement and no gravity as such to cause movement. Time as we see it is simply frozen.

However, I'm now wondering about the possibility that a ship passing through the warp may expose the warp to our concept of time in a limited fashion.


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## Twisted (Mar 11, 2010)

Zenith_of_Mind said:


> First, this argument requires a big leap of faith. If the Warp is incomprehensible existence, then there is no use discussing it, because we'll never understand it.


I would say most things can be described or comprehended, you just need someone capable and a lot of discussion. But I would agree to some point with CotE.

Referring to my last post I believe there is no concept of time in the warp, but this does not mean that our universe and our concept of time can't influence it.

Imagine a realm frozen in time, and then next to it a realm with time. It is possible at certain points the realm with time can drop things within this other frozen realm, but it has no past in this frozen world because this world has no past and no future, however the moving realm continues.

Because the moving realm continues we have a point in this realm to ascertain the point of creation for say Slaanesh. But in that frozen realm Slaanesh was always there because time has not changed, this doesn't mean that demons can go back in our time to change our past as our realm is constantly moving. The warp only exists in one frozen point in time and when they break into our realm they break into our present and are influenced by our concept of time.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Zenith_of_Mind said:


> Take Slaneesh for example. He (?) was born because of the lustful ways of the Eldar (in short). So the negative emotions(psychic energy) of the Eldar slowly "fed" him until he was ready to be "born", so to speak. That happened around M30. From that point Slaneesh is active and busy with corrupting people and all the things Chaos does. Now, if you say that he always existed, how come he never appeared before, prior to the Fall of Eldar, to wreak havoc? And why it is said that he was born after accumulating those emotions? If he was always there, it would be irrelevant if Eldar did what they did or not.





Daemons Codex Page 7 said:


> ...That is how events are viewed from the chronology of the real universe; in the Warp, things are different. The Realm of Chaos has no true time, and events do not occur in a strict sequence of cause then effect. In essence, Slaanesh has always existed in the Warp, and yet has never existed.


Straight from the horse's mouth 



Twisted said:


> Because the moving realm continues we have a point in this realm to ascertain the point of creation for say Slaanesh. But in that frozen realm Slaanesh was always there because time has not changed, this doesn't mean that demons can go back in our time to change our past as our realm is constantly moving. The warp only exists in one frozen point in time and when they break into our realm they break into our present and are influenced by our concept of time.


A very good analogy, and a lot better than I put it.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Peculiar concept. I assumed that you were just interpreting it to mean that but if the text is that straight forward oh well.


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## Helvron (Jan 4, 2010)

ok first of all, the Warp does have a beginning, just as the Galaxy and the Universe has a beginning, The Warp is a psychic dimension parallel to real space it is without form and with its own fluid laws of time and space. Its energies are in constant turmoil, subject to endless disturbances. it does have Time and Space it simply said F you Physics, i am going to make my own physics and its going to be ten times better then yours!(meaning it simply has its own eb and flow.) the Disturbances i believe are the constant changing wills and emotions of all Sentiant species. Just my opinon.


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## Zenith_of_Mind (Mar 12, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Straight from the horse's mouth
> ...That is how events are viewed from the chronology of the real universe; in the Warp, things are different. The Realm of Chaos has no true time, and events do not occur in a strict sequence of cause then effect. In essence, Slaanesh has always existed in the Warp, and yet has never existed.


Indeed. But you have often quoted only the first part, _Slaanesh has always existed in the Warp_, without the second, _and yet has never existed. _

When quoting Codex it's best to quote the whole sentence, not only the part that supports your claims. The sentence as a whole tells us nothing, and tells us everything (this reminds me of real world holy books).

Anyway, I agree that Twisted had made a good explanation on the matter. I also think that we will never truly understand Warp, because Games Workshop has meant it that way, to add more mystery to it and also to make room for future canon needs.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Zenith_of_Mind said:


> Indeed. But you have often quoted only the first part, _Slaanesh has always existed in the Warp_, without the second, _and yet has never existed. _
> 
> When quoting Codex it's best to quote the whole sentence, not only the part that supports your claims. The sentence as a whole tells us nothing, and tells us everything (this reminds me of real world holy books).


What are you on about? I have quoted the whole paragraph without missing anything... 

Look it up yourself if you have doubts!


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## Zenith_of_Mind (Mar 12, 2010)

To conclude, in Daemons Codex it states:
_In essence, Slaneesh has always existed in the Warp, and yet has never existed._

Obviously, the sentence is a logical fallacy, and as such cannot be treated as a normal statement in a discussion. 

If you want to tackle it as in lore, the Warp can't be understood by human mind. 

If you want to tackle it from the real world perspective, the creators, Games Workshop didn't bother to explain Warp in detail, and left it as a mystery, which is fine. If they have explained it in detail it would be more awesome, but either way it's fine. Maybe they will one day, remember that the official canon changes with the newest Codexes and such.

Therefore, I can conclude that this discussion will never bear fruit, as long that dreadful statement from the Codex stands.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

The warp and the entities simply...are


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