# Purple Sun of Xereus: Game Ruiner?



## mynameisgrax

I've heard complaints here and there, but I'd like to take it a step further. The sixth spell of Death Lore: 'Purple Sun of Xereus' ruins games. It can reduce even the largest, most promising battle down to a small handful of dice rolls.

Take my first game at Ard Boyz this weekend. I play Ogres and my opponent plays Dark Elves. I know going in that Ogres (although better now) still aren't a top tier army, so I'm probably just playing for fun. 

The game starts, we get into position, we trade initial blows and prepare for close combat. All in all, it looks like it's going to be an interesting and fun game that can easily go either way.

Then he casts Purple Sun. He rolls all the dice he has in his pool, and gets two 6's. I have no way in my list (or army) of preventing it. He rolls a 9 (the average roll) and it lands in the front line of my 2nd most expensive unit, killing two of my four characters, including my lvl 4 wizard.

I try to shrug it off and readjust my strategy, only to have the purple sun slam into my most expensive unit (containing my Lord) the next magic phase. I try to dispel it with all the power dice in my pool, but fall short by 1. The next magic phase, it completely engulfs my main unit, and I concede.

I don't mind powerful magic, but when even a beginner can roll a small handful of dice and beat any player on the planet, then the spell is broken. Granted, it could have backfired on him, but that didn't stop him from taking 2nd at the tournament, mainly from exploiting that single spell.

What do you think?


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## The Son of Horus

Sounds a little like sour grapes to me. But I don't necessarily disagree with you, either. Some of the magic in the new rulebook is extremely powerful. A lot of the skill involved in the magic phase seems to have disappeared, because players realize that you can just roll six dice no matter what level wizard you are, get a miscast/irresistible force, and throw some game-winning spell at their opponent. Magic has become entirely a function of dice, rather than player decision, I think-- purely because of how the Winds of Magic works. The defending player is going to have enough dispel dice, no matter what, really, to stop stuff that isn't irresistible; and the casting player is most likely going to have enough dice to at least throw the big spell and look for the two sixes. 

GW clearly designed it that way, too-- case and point, look at Lore of Life. That spell list encourages you to throw as many dice as you can at things, and even accounts for damage the wizard might take from miscasts by either negating it or healing the wounds later.


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## mynameisgrax

I like to think it wasn't just frustration with losing. Hell, I played Ogres in 7th edition, I'm used to that. ^_^ If it's sour grapes, it's not really over losing (I know the opponent and he's actually a very good player), it's over not being able to play out the game. I had to kill almost 2 hours before the next round began, for Christ's sake.

What really frustrated me is that it could've been a really fun and engaging battle, but instead it was decided by a small handful of dice that any player (or their pet monkey) could've rolled and won with.

An extra problem is the spell, as random as it may be, is clearly worth the risk. There is a possibility of it backfiring horribly, but odds are it will only damage your opponent, and in some situations, completely cripple him. In order for it to truly backfire, they would have to either roll a misfire (1 in 6 chance) or roll a 4 or less on 3d6 movement distance (another 1 in 6 chance). 

So instead of a flip of a coin, it's more like a roll of a d6: 

1: you lose two units close to your caster. 
2: you lose most or all of one unit close to your caster. 
3: it does nothing. 
4-5: your opponent loses a unit close to a spot of your choice. 
6: your opponent loses two units close to a spot of your choice.

All in all, I'm not saying it isn't a fair spell, as it is a very difficult spell to cast, it can backfire horribly, and you usually have to suffer a miscast to cast it (it reduced the caster in our game to a 0 lvl caster, effectively taking him out of the game), but it reduces what could have been a great game to a small handful of dice rolls. After all the time and effort it took to set up (it was the random deployment mission), it just made the whole experience seem like a waste.


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## Sethis

I was talking about this with my gaming group the other day and basically my point of view is "It might happen. There is a much larger chance that it won't."

To illustrate a few examples:

The second game I played with my Dark Elves in the new edition, I took Purple Sun on my Level 4 Sorc, and cast it on turn 2. I rolled a Misfire and then a 6 for her initiative test, she promptly died, leaving me with ~1500pts vs my opponenents 2000pts.

The third game I played, I managed to cast it without mishap, and it then spent the rest of the game zigzagging back and forth in front of the enemy without ever touching his units.

The fourth game it ate about half a unit of Ironbreakers, which was nice, but not gamebreaking at the time.

Due to a combination of factors, magic has become a lot more unreliable than it was previously. I've played games where I've had 5 dice at most during all of my own turns, and been unable to get a meaningful cast off. I've also played games where I got 12 dice twice in a row and cast every spell I had.

I have similar examples from my WoC with Gateway, but I think you get the gist. Sometimes you get a silly silly phase, and it wins you the game. Other times it can fail totally right when you need it.

My point is that this is no different to anything else in the game. A bad double 6 can always screw you over (whether it's a gateway cast or a break test), and the misfire dice is nobodies friend. A Hellblaster can either munch its way through unit after unit, or it can explode on turn 1 depending on how the dice feel.

I'm sure we can all come up with an example of unlucky scenarios that we've seen/encountered, but at the end of the day it's just a result of rolling dice to win games. Sometimes they just refuse to work. I don't think complaining about Purple Sun is any more productive than complaining about Cannon or Stone Throwers or Terror, and I don't think any of them ruin the game in general. However, occasionally, they might ruin one or two games that otherwise would have been close.


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## charleston chew

Sadly there's not much you can do, that's just the new magic of the edition. Purple Sun is a impressive Spell especially with Irresistible force but I seen it backfire enough to not be worried. Lore of Death is Indeed a powerful Lore but I feel Purple Sun isn't the best spell from it, I lost more due to Doom and Darkness and Fate of Bjuna then to Purple Sun. Just gotta keep on trucking and find away around powerful magic


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## NagashKhemmler

Purple sun is an initiative test, that means that it depends who they're using it against, if they use it against chaos/elves it will do very little and be quite unlikely to effect any characters (barring bad luck).

It just really sucks for you as ogres, as the spell is especially effective versus your army.

I definately agree with you on magic though, in this edition it takes no skill, people just throw 6 dice at every spell and guarantee a powerful cast. Removing the double 1 really made magic a very low risk option. Previously the double 1 issue made it risky to do this, now there's no risk, just throw all of your dice in.


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## Tim/Steve

I hate coming up against the lore of death with my ogres too- there really is nothing you can do to prevent a purple sun from wiping out the majority of a unit.

As for THoH saying that its easy for a defender to dispel it I can't say Ive seen that born out in 8th. A lot of the time we see 5-7 power dice with 3-4 dispel dice... a level 4 should be able to cast the higher purple sun with that, and is almost certain to get the smaller one... while if the defender doesn't have either a Lv4 or a scroll the spell is going to go through (even with a lv4 its unlikely they'll stop it)... but it is always fun getting a double 6 when you have almost no dice left.

I think that the ogres will do better after the new army book is released (hopefully early next year).... I expect we'll new banners that protect from characteristic tests (or give some sort of bonus/save to them) as well as hopefully being able to take both more magical banners and on more units (currently ogres can have 1 <25pt banner on ironguts and 1 of any points on the BSB... thats it for the entire army, no matter how big a game it is).

Then again its not just ogres that have to worry about purple sun- its has the ability to trounce dwarves, lizards, nurgle daemons and to a certain extent VC in a single pass (its nasty for other armies, but about right for what it costs to cast). Then again I would say ogres are the most vulnerable of those. With I2 core, I3 characters and an I4 general they'll fail a lot of 'I' tests and then the fact of them having many wounds is irrelevant as they just straight die (plus at least 3 roles for more PD per model failed).
It just means that those armies have something of an auto-loss button built in if they start running anything that looks remotely like a deathstar, and since a hoard of ogres is about the only thing I can do to counter massive hoards from other armies (other then multiple scraplaunchers.. which Im not going to do).


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## Cheese meister

the thing is lore of life with dwellers bellow combined with lore of shadows can be more deadly than the purple sun


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## Tim/Steve

sure, but thats ok- that requires 2 mages, both to roll the right spells, then they need to manage to cast both. A nice big combination like that requires some skill, some planning and a nice helping of luck to get going (spread through several dice roles).
On the other hand purple sun can end the game with 1 spell, which is a little harsh when it doesnt require any skill or planning.


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## Vaz

Unfortunately, it's not the fault of the spell. Theres a 50%+ chance of most armies surviving- combined with the initial dispel chance and the RiP dispel, there's a reasonable chance of stopping it with most up to date armies.

Compare that to Ogres, and Dwarves, and it's a nuke - but they're out of date, requiring defensive magic - of which defensive magic being a couple of additional dispel dice is not up to the scratch of what current 8th Edition Magic is.


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## Tim/Steve

Yeah, the grand total of ogre's magic defence is the rune maw, the greatskull and 1-3 gnoblar thiefstones (but since the common MR talismans from the rulebook are the same price they arent exactly special)... and a grand total of none of those have any effect whatsoever on purple sun or pit of shades... the 2 spells that, not only can but should, cripple ogres in 1 casting.


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## Alexious

I have read everyones responses with some interest and note peoples concerns with Magic. However I don't see Purple Sun as the be all and end of the magic phase as some people seem to think. However it is a powerful weapon.... but like most editions of Warhammer those who control the magic phase, tend to control the game. (thats my personal opinion since 2nd edition)

1). Why are people so upset with Purple Sun?

Purple Sun is available to a LOT of lists.... anyone who is facing an empire, dark elf, chaos, whoever else can take the list should be thinking what if...... especially with magic. Each race has an item or items that are capable of getting rid of the spell at least once, from a dispel magic scroll, through to an Icon for Empire, A shard here or there etc. (Admitedly IF makes it rather more murky). If your planning your lists before a battle, why would you not even in friendly games have a way to shut down magic or at least be able to throw stuff at your opponent to even the playing field? All the lists I read online are rarely considerate of this. Its almost as if IF has made everyone say... well cant stop you........ end of game after that purple sun goes off or whatever goes off. People who are still playing death star units or placing all their hopes on that killer crusher unit are asking for Purple Sun to be cast at it. In most games of 2.4k or above you have several choices for core, special etc. Reliance on one large block of forces is going to cost you if the enemy has taken enough magical firepower. The answer is to change how your playing and what your force consists of rather than lament the loss of your 50000000 strong dwarf regiment. (which is asking for the juciest biggest spell that can be thrown at you).

2). Give as good as you get. Most lists (albiet dwarves struggle). Are capable of fielding strong magic, so if your opponent starts relying on it to wipe you out think of counter strats or if you can't stop him wiping out your large spear block.... then wipe out his! I loathe as a DE player coming up against Lizards for this very reason, they give as good as they get. Even a humble Empire army can deal massive damage to anyone with Magic and keep people on the backfoot.

3). Invest in protection. At the moment, as 8th unfolds, too many lists are being tooled to kill..... not to protect. The biggest learning of 40k was TLOS and protecting your forces for 5th edition for a lot of people and making redudencies built into lists. I rarely see here on other forums, anything that consititutes a defensive unit or a strategy of WHAT HAPPENS WHEN DEATH STAR TAKES A MASSIVE MAGIC HIT?

If your empire are you putting a unit of handgunners there to protect your warmachines?
If your DE are you protecting your Hyrdra or COK or are you too busy throwing harpies at enemy war machines?
If your HE are you investing in enough figures to take the fight across the board if you happen to suffer enough losses to shooting?
If your chaos, have you tooled your lords to ensure you can reach the enemy?


That all said, yes Purple Sun is a powerful tool when used right..... but its no worse than the dreaded 13th spell for example which is one of my pet hate spells I go all out to destroy.

Magic is now a viable kill strat..... people need to consider that when designing their forces. Purple Sun can kill those 50 dark elf warriors, 50 dwarves, 50 lizards, 50 empire state troopers regiments.... so the answer..... dont put all your eggs in one basket. After its cast once with IF.... hopefully the enemy has taken some sort of Magical backlash.... make your opponent think...... a level 4 wizard with a power scroll is about 250 points...... he/she needs to make this back and do more dmge to you with it, to make it worthwhile, in case they end up blowing themselves to kingdom come. So why is everyone presenting 300-500 point strong units that are screaming target me! Or at least thinking..... well that lord better take some magic defence if I am going to take that 500 point uber unit....

If i had a spell I HATE..... its the damned 13th spell! Ugh i hate that thing!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its even harder to kill the caster than most Purple Sun casters too.

Alexi.


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## NagashKhemmler

Purple sun is an initiative test, if you're a dark elf player you shouldn't even care if they cast it, you lose a spearman on a 6....who cares? Fireball spell is about as effective against 20 spearmen and a lot easier to counter. 

You only really care about those 'doom' spells, if you're death-staring, and if that's the case, then you probably deserve to lose the game because of one spell.

There are precautions you can take to stop those spells, even as ogres:

Feedback scroll (guarantee he does it once often)
Hellheart
Give your lord an initiative 10 weapon
Give your caster an initiative potion the turn before charge (so he can be certain to survive one casting of it, as initiative is your weakness stat wise).

Spread your points of characters out.....
Instead of a level 4, have 3 level 2's for example
Instead of a lord, have heroes, ogre heroes themselves tend to trounce most lords.

The issue I see, is that lists in 8th (in general) are built like lists in 7th. It's possible to have lots of heroes and lords now, capitalise on that and get cheap lords, rather than fully decked out and have many heroes, spread the units/damage around.

Your lord is easily viable with a great weapon alone, able to trounce most enemies with JUST that and the big name....


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## Tim/Steve

NagashKhemmler said:


> Purple sun is an initiative test, if you're a dark elf player you shouldn't even care if they cast it, you lose a spearman on a 6....who cares? Fireball spell is about as effective against 20 spearmen and a lot easier to counter.
> 
> You only really care about those 'doom' spells, if you're death-staring, and if that's the case, then you probably deserve to lose the game because of one spell.
> 
> There are precautions you can take to stop those spells, even as ogres:
> 
> Feedback scroll (guarantee he does it once often)
> doesnt stop the spell, lords should survive it- less then 20% of taking 3 wounds even on a 6 dice casting- but even if you did die the purple sun could still easily take between 2-800pts worth of ogres in a single pass
> Hellheart
> doesnt stop the spell and is unlikely to kill the wizard. A 1-2 means he's dead or not a mage, a 3 might kill him if you are lucky and a 4+ is ignorable...I would risk that
> Give your lord an initiative 10 weapon
> gold sigil sword and cathayan longsword only work in combat... they have no effect against characteristic tests... so you might be I10, but still fail vs purple sun on a 5+
> Give your caster an initiative potion the turn before charge (so he can be certain to survive one casting of it, as initiative is your weakness stat wise).
> ok, so he might survive (33% the chance of dying) but if I was casting purple sun I would just aim elsewhere... but even then a 17% chance of killing a 2-300pt character is well worth trying, add in the collateral you'll get and its still an awesome spell.
> 
> Spread your points of characters out.....
> Instead of a level 4, have 3 level 2's for example
> Never going to happen. I might take a butcher instead of a slaughtermaster.. but they arent that much cheaper and that just sacrifices +2 to cast/dispel on everything in the game (including against purple sun). I dont see the point of taking 2 butchers, in 2.5k games I might take a butcher to back up a slaughtermaster... the other important thing about this though is that for the +70pts to get a slaughtermaster you dont just get +2 to dispel but you also start with +1I
> Instead of a lord, have heroes, ogre heroes themselves tend to trounce most lords.
> Bruisers can beat almost anything... but you dont take a tyrant to kill things (although he really does), you take him for the Ld bonus he gives you (and if I could spend another +70pts and have a Ld10 ogre I would do it). Again a tyrant gives you +1I, and you really dont want the general dying because then you have the Ld7 bulls/butcher struggling to pass any tests, and have given away the +100Vp for the general
> 
> The issue I see, is that lists in 8th (in general) are built like lists in 7th. It's possible to have lots of heroes and lords now, capitalise on that and get cheap lords, rather than fully decked out and have many heroes, spread the units/damage around.
> ogres dont do cheap... you're looking at ~145pts for a hero with no magical items. Basically they can afford a general, a caster and mebbe a BSB if you stretch... then a back up caster in big games, but spare combat characters are almost never going to be seen.
> Your lord is easily viable with a great weapon alone, able to trounce most enemies with JUST that and the big name....
> win yes, survive possibly, break doubtful. It costs a lot to make him survivable... and none of the big names are very good. mawseeker is the best, but being stupid Ld9 is a bit risky.


So while they sound like good suggestions in practice I doubt many of them would actually work all that well... and those that make a little bit of an imporvement (like just taking a hero general and caster to save points) make both more vulnerable and mean you've just lost a massive bonus in _every_ game you play... I refuse to tailor my lists to individual enemies so I would be down to a permanent Ld8 and would have -2 to cast/dispel off every casting/dispelling attempt in every game... which doenst sound like a good idea.

The best defense here is probably the feedback scroll and hellheart (although not both- being arcane means I could only take 1... or I would need to spend an extra 180pts to take the second).... but then it would be psychology not effect that protects (which would mean you need to let slip you have a feedback scroll). Very few people risk casting when a hellheart is in effect... fear means they just dont roll more then 1 dice per spell... but I recon quite a few people would ignore the risks if the ogres were in a position to charge (if the mage is going to die in the combat anyway...)


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## Aramoro

Along with Dwellers from Below, Purple Sun is absolutely brutal in the right situation. I like to take Life myself with a Lvl 4 and Lvl , the Lvl 2 having the Potion Sacre. With that combination of Casters it's very likely I'll get Dwellers on the Lvl 2 and she can suicide cast Dwellers on people. Teclis is S2, poor Teclis. 

These spells are just unfairly powerful against some armies, Purple Sun against Orges especially. That and the fact you can effectively force the Spell of your choice on the Caster of your choice makes it very harsh indeed. I think it would be better all round if you could take Ward Saves against spells which remove you from play. 

Aramoro


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## neilbatte

The purple sun is only game breaking against ogres and as much as I like playing my ogres they're not a common/ popular army and are desperately due an update.
Dwarf armys can shut down magic with ease, Undead can either raise back what was killed or dominate the magic and shut down/ kill the caster the only other low init army I can think of is lizardmen and they have access to the slann which can do enough damage on its own. Most other armies have either high init so ignore psoz or they're well protected in the magic phase or so cheap it doesn't matter.


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## Tim/Steve

Yeah, its a little unfair that you can bascially ensure that you cast the spell you want whenever you want it cast. For 483 points I caa field 2 Lv3 spellweavers for my WE army and both can take life (the suicide can get a elven steed and a power scroll)- the one with no equipment roles first and is she gets dweller's she changes it to earthblood, the second then is almost assured to have dwellers (in order not to the first mage must have rolled it, changed to earthblood and then the second rolled the perfect option to get the other 3 spells). If I have first turn I can use my vanguard move, followed by a march to move the suicide mage 30" before the magic phase. Then as long as I get a total of 5-6 dice its incredibly unlikely that I would fail to get an irrisistable dwellers... with enough range to hit any unit on the board.
- if you are playing Teclis against that you better hope he is in a unit with the banner of the world dragon... otherwise its basically like a 60-65% chance that he's dead turn 1 (I need to get the dice).

Someone who either knew they were playing against ogres/dwarves/lizardmen could do something similar with death- if they go first their suicide flies/marches on the fastest cheap mount they can get, and then sends a purple sun down the enemy batteline before they even get the chance to move (if you go second hide the mage and do the same thing- against ogres that'll mean more may very well die). The only hope the enemy would have would be either you roll too few dice or you got a misfire... but almost 5/6 the purple sun would smash through their army and tear the heart out of them. The the mage would quite probably survive (and ogres especially would have a problem getting to and killing that mage in a single turn (i f they are M8-9 or flying it would be difficult for ogres to kill that mage full stop).


And as for power scroll + 13th spell... just dont even suggest it


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## mynameisgrax

I agree with Tim/Steve on all points. Feedback scroll doesn't help because no save of any kind is allowed against Purple Sun. The initiative 10 sword only works for attacks, not characteristic tests. Otherwise units with great weapons would be nearly impervious to strength tests.

Ogres are definitely the army that's hardest hit by Purple Sun, as they're the only army with both a low initiative and a low model count. Still, any army that relies heavily upon 1-2 units is going to find purple sun game breaking, especially at lower point levels.

As a side note, I'm nowhere as afraid of Dwellers Below. Honestly, I could've lost one of my two main units, and half the characters in my list, and still been able to finish out the game. I probably would not have won in that case (a draw would've definitely been possible, especially since my opponent's main wizard was neutralized), but the game would have definitely continued.

The Purple Sun sank itself into the ranks of my most expensive units three turns in a row, literally destroying over half the points in my army by the first half of turn 3. A single spell should not be able to do that to anyone, not when you can throw all your dice at it, and virtually guarantee irresistible force, leaving your opponent no possible way to counter it.


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## NagashKhemmler

So far I'm not a big fan of how irresistible force and miscasts work. To be frank, I think the whole irresistible force thing should've been dropped, just leaving it at base values, with three 1's causing a miscast. The miscast table isn't as bad as it seems compared to the actual casting power of magic itself.

I do agree that purple sun is highly situational, my daemons laugh at it, my undead don't care and my chaos laugh also.

As a side note for someone too lazy to look it up, do you get look out sir from the purple sun? As far as I was aware as a template you do, am I wrong?


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## Aramoro

Look Out Sir! only protects you from Shooting attacks, Purple Sun in a Magical Vortex so it doesn't really fall into that category at all. 

Aramoro


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## Tim/Steve

Specifically Look Out Sir only protects against 'hits' caused by template weapons... dwellers doesnt use a template and purple sun does not cause any hits. Meanwhile something like the Burning Head which both uses a template and causes hits (admittedly only a cannon-like template) so you can look out sir against it.


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## Aramoro

The Burning Head is a Direct Damage spell and not a Shooting attack so you can't Look Out Sir!. I'm not sure if this is the intent or not but that's how it is written. 

Aramoro


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## NagashKhemmler

I wrote into their rules guys, asked in store and read it twice myself, you get look out sir from any template attack, so you do get it from purple sun and any other template, however not from dwellers below as it isn't a template...


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## Aramoro

Indeed it's randomly in the FAQ as well, you can use Look Out Sir against any spells with templates.

Aramoro


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## mynameisgrax

Tim/Steve said:


> Specifically Look Out Sir only protects against 'hits' caused by template weapons... dwellers doesnt use a template and purple sun does not cause any hits.



Whoa, whoa, whoa...

For lack of a better term, that's an incredibly 'Clinton-esque' interpretation of the word 'hit'. The spell says it affects models that the template touches. 

The main rulebook doesn't say it prevents attacks that cause hits, it just says when a template hits a character, you make the look out sir roll.

If your argument is that the words 'hit' and 'touches' weren't intended to mean the same thing, then I don't buy it, and I honestly doubt any judge would. 

In the case of my own game, I botched the look out sir roll, forcing my character to make the initiative test himself. No one at the tournament questioned it, and honestly, I've never heard of anyone questioning it before. 

Dwellers, on the other hand, doesn't use a template, so you are correct, look out sir would indeed not prevent it.


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## Vaz

T/S is correct.

RAW =/= RAI. All other template weapons state that enemies under the template are automatically hit. If that was the case, why didn't they use the same terminology?

Also, it's not as though you can see the attack coming, so you can't exactly say that the other members in the unit can push the character out of the way, which is what the Look out sir! replicates, and the initiative check is everyone throwing themselves away from the Purple Orb. If they're not quick enough, they're turned into a pink rock.


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## mynameisgrax

Hold the phone! After going back and forth on the subject, I found the definitive answer in the official FAQ:

To quote directly:

Q: Does the 'Look Out Sir' special rule apply against all spells that use templates?

A: Yes.


That's definitive. Look Out Sir doesn't only apply to spells that cause shooting hits with templates, it applies to ALL spells that use templates, for whatever reason.

Purple Sun is a spell that uses a template, so Look Out Sir works against it. Thank god.


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## Vaz

Fair enough.


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## NagashKhemmler

mynameisgrax said:


> Hold the phone! After going back and forth on the subject, I found the definitive answer in the official FAQ:
> 
> To quote directly:
> 
> Q: Does the 'Look Out Sir' special rule apply against all spells that use templates?
> 
> A: Yes.
> 
> 
> That's definitive. Look Out Sir doesn't only apply to spells that cause shooting hits with templates, it applies to ALL spells that use templates, for whatever reason.
> 
> Purple Sun is a spell that uses a template, so Look Out Sir works against it. Thank god.


Thought so, purple sun is now not as bad.


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## Tim/Steve

Awsome- finally, clear distinction... seen it a day late though- I was getting very worried yesterday when I stupidly set up my 2 ogres lords next to each other in a 2k game vs a shadow HE archmage (especially stupid when I was puttingthe general there to give his Ld to my other units... one of which was an Ld10 slavegaint, and the other was a Ld9 Irongut unit thanks to the standard of dsicipline)... as it was it didnt matter since pit of shades got cast twice and scatter 11" first time and 5" second (he tried the smaller after reducing everyone's I to 1.. fail).
Now if they had simply written the Look Out Sir rule like that in the first place it would have been much simpler... something like: "You can take a look out sir anytime a template, from any source, would interact in any way with a character.
- ah, thats a thought. This means that mages will get look out sir's against their own miscast explosions now... interesting.


@ mynameisgrax- its not "clinton-esque", its not even being a rules lawyer. The way GW write is very specific (in theory), words like 'Hit' and 'Wound' are meant to be exact terminology. So without the very clearly written FAQ the rules would mean that the template must say it causes a 'hit' upon someone in order to get a look out sir, not just 'touch'. Its like in 40k- if you can reroll to wound you cannot reroll armour penetration roles, even though its effectively the same thing (hit then wound vs hit then pen)... the words have specific meaning and using common sense/different meaning for them normally fecks the rules up pretty badly (certainly in the 40k rule discussion forum I groan anytime I see someone use a common sense argument- they should work, but they just dont).


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## Aramoro

Sadly the Miscast table specifically says he cannot have a Lookout Sir. 

Aramoro


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## mynameisgrax

I'm afraid RAW arguments don't go very far with me. The codexes are often written by completely different people, and are poorly edited (all things considered), so small inconsistencies in the wording of rules are inevitable. All I'm saying is that these small inconsistencies in wording shouldn't dictate the course of the game as a whole.

I'm not saying that interpreting the rules in this manner is wrong or against the rules. I'm just saying it's against the spirit of the game, unsportsmanlike, and almost always eventually quashed by FAQs/Errata in any case.

This may not matter to you, but frankly, if these things mean nothing to you, then I don't think we could play a game together in real life. ^_^


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## Aramoro

RAW arguments exist solely for the purpose of tourney play. Where someone you've never met and will never meet again will come and pass judgement on your rules situation. You may well play you're modified sportmanlike rules set with your friends but that means nothing when you are not playing your friends. For example we all play that Bretoinian Lances can disrupt and be Steadfast, but I fully expect if I were to play in a tourney they would not as that's the RAW. 

Aramoro


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## VeronaKid

To quote Grax, "whoa, whoa, whoa."

I think that a few of you are getting wrapped around the axle to the point where you are starting to ignore the very rules that you are trying to sort out. If you look at the Miscast table, under each of the results where a template is placed to simulate the magic exploding in the mage's face, it VERY explicitly states "Note- the mage is NOT entitled to a 'Look Out Sir!' roll in this case." So, if a FAQ comes back saying that a spell that uses a template _does_ entitle a mage to a LOS! roll, it doesn't mean that you ignore the rule that I just mentioned! You're comparing apples to oranges.

The FAQ that Grax quoted addresses the Purple Sun issue- mages (and all other characters) that get hit by the vortex clearly get the 'Look Out, Sir!' roll. When a mage's magic blows up in his face and places a template, then, *by the rules as they are plainly written in black and white in English*, (this is far > than RAW) he does not.

Jeez, people.:grin:


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## Vaz

Unfortunately, that's not how it goes with the rest of the world. RAW states that there is no Look Out Sir! (whether intentionally or not), however the FAQ changed that.

It's not a case of the "Rules don't say you can't", it's a case that the "Rules don't say you can". 

The point that it needed FAQing showed that it was not what they wrote. Spirit of the game? Blame the fuck up who thought of that rule, not those who use it. What about Wound Allocation mentality in 40K?

I caused plasma wounds this morning, (AP2), and 6 Lasgun wounds this morning against a 6 man tactical squad, with a Sergeant, a Missile Launcher and a Flamer, with 3 Bolters. I caused 6 AP2 wounds, right? So dead squad? No, because thanks to wound allocation, he puts all the Plasma wounds on the Bolters, killing them, and the lasgun on the 3 valuable members. Guess what, they pass their armour saves.

Not to mention that this is a rulebook - it was WRITTEN by Mat Ward. One person. He may have others under him, but he was responsible for Checking through everything.

If he corrected all other mistakes, why was that one left? Leaving the logical conclusion, it was intentional, until after the backlash of people wondering why templates for spells don't let you take Look Out Sir!.

As for in a tournament, (hypothetically, since it's been FAQ'd), I'd expect it to be played by the rules - in this case, being no Look Out Sir!.


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## VeronaKid

Here's another quote from that same FAQ:

Q: Is damage caused by a miscast counted as a spell? Can a model
with Magic Resistance add it to its ward save against it? (p34)
A: No to both questions.

Again, CLEARLY, you get the LOS! vs. the spell-induced template, but NOT against the magic blowing up template.


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## Aramoro

VeronaKid said:


> To quote Grax, "whoa, whoa, whoa."
> 
> I think that a few of you are getting wrapped around the axle to the point where you are starting to ignore the very rules that you are trying to sort out. If you look at the Miscast table, under each of the results where a template is placed to simulate the magic exploding in the mage's face, it VERY explicitly states "Note- the mage is NOT entitled to a 'Look Out Sir!' roll in this case." So, if a FAQ comes back saying that a spell that uses a template _does_ entitle a mage to a LOS! roll, it doesn't mean that you ignore the rule that I just mentioned! You're comparing apples to oranges.
> 
> The FAQ that Grax quoted addresses the Purple Sun issue- mages (and all other characters) that get hit by the vortex clearly get the 'Look Out, Sir!' roll. When a mage's magic blows up in his face and places a template, then, *by the rules as they are plainly written in black and white in English*, (this is far > than RAW) he does not.
> 
> Jeez, people.:grin:


A Miscast is not a spell so entirely irrelevant to the FAQ, no one is comparing anything to anything in this case. I think you are getting confused. No one is trying to say a miscast is a spell. 

Aramoro


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## mynameisgrax

I never questioned there not being a look out sir roll for miscasting. That's not a spell after all, but an effect that results from miscasting a spell.

I'm not sure if I consider wound allocation cheesy in 40k (placing multiple plasma wounds on the same guy and lasgun wounds on everyone else, for example), as everyone can do it, and it's less a cheesy exploitation of the rules as much as it is an often overlooked aspect. Besides, it's fairly realistic. If a guy with a plasma rifle fired rapidly into a unit, odds are if both his shots hit, they'd hit the same guy.

The exception of course being wound allocation on multi-wound units. Hell, I'm an Ork player and I think the unique nob trick is really cheesy. I think 'unique equipment' was meant to apply only to equipment that has some sort of bearing on the close combat, not ammo runts, combi-rokkits, and such.

You have a point, Aramoro, which is precisely why I often stay away from tournaments. I think tournament organizers either need to have a clearly defined position on each rule, or settle more arguments with roll offs. 

To me, Warhammer Fantasy and 40k is about playing the game, not about winning by exploiting poorly worded rules. If that means I can't play in many tournaments, so be it.


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## VeronaKid

Tim/Steve said:


> This means that mages will get look out sir's against their own miscast explosions now... interesting.


This is where my confusion comes from, as after T/S made this comment, the conversation seemed to take a very confrontational turn. If this comment was sarcastic in nature, I missed the sarcasm. Please continue.

Damn Brits and your subtleties.


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## Tim/Steve

OMFG- the first rule in the book is not longer to have fun- they've moved it (took me a while to find) to be a little 'suggestion' box in itallics in the margin of page 3... shocker


@Grox- you arent the only one to 'play nice', outside of a tournament I would hope almost everyone here would, hell most of us would play nice in a tournament too... knowing exactly what the rulebook says, and playing that way are 2 different things... although both can be altered by follwing a rules discussion- for example before we had the FAQ quote saying that Look Out Sir works for all magical templates the exact wording of the rule meant that you only got the 2+ save against templates that caused hits. Before I saw the FAQ I would have played that with no look out sir roles for characters hit by the pit of shades (principally only hurting myself, since I cannot cast that spell with my regular armies)... but if we were playing using a dragon whose breath "wounded those beneath the template on a 2" then I would certainly allow a look out sir for that even if RAW would have said it technically doesnt give one... RAW may iad my viewpoint, but it is not the be-all and end-all of how to play the game.

anyway...
Between the FAQ and the P34 miscast table we have an answer to the Look Out Sir questions: you always get look out sir against any and all templates cast by spells, you dont get it against the blasts caused by miscasts (because P35 says you dont... unlike the table in the reference section, which is obviously just a summary). If other miscast tables involve templates they'll need to be sorted out individually... but I dont know of any off the top of my head (although it looks to be you always get a Look Out Sir against tempates unless they specifically say you dont).
We dont need to discuss it anymore... so back to the original thread purpose of discussing purple sun: bitching, tactics to use, tactics to counter, army builds to protect against and whether or not you think its a game ruiner or not are all welcome (although keep the bitching to a bare mimimum please )
thank you
-T/S

@Veronakid- no, its wasn't sarcasm, I just simply wrong... comes from only looking at the P508 table and not the P35 one.


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## Aramoro

Back on topic it certainly can be a game ruiner for you, just like Dwellers can be. Magic is like that in 8th. Trying to come up with elaborate counters to specific spells blindly overlooks the fact that you're having to come up with elaborate counters to stop you just losing to a random event. The sort of all or nothing nature is what makes it rough. 

Cannons are the same for me though, I'd love to take a tooled up Greater Daemon for 500+pts but a single cannonball can kill him first turn if I fail my 5+ ward save. Cannons struggle to miss anymore so i mean I cannot take a Greater Daemon basically, just too great a risk. 

Aramoro


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## Tim/Steve

/expletives

Ok, pit of shades is without a coubt a game ruiner... and anyone who even hears of a game more ruined then the one I had earlier must tell me at once, because I simply dont believe it to be possible. Remember this is pit of shades, not purple sun... its the less relaible of the 2.
The game took 2 turns before I conceeded, and saw 5 spells cast, 2 of which were mine. I'll give a quick report only giveing the important bits... this means army lists, movement, shooting and set up are all completely irrelevant.

My turn 1- I cast toothcracker to give my ironguts +1T and stubborn, the HE lets it through then dispels everything else.
HE turn 1- misma on my ironguts makes them WS1, I1, M4 (I let this through). Irresistable pit of shades scatters 1", hits all 7 ironguts and kills them all.

My turn 2- I have 2 PD, and cast toothcracker on my bulls+characters
HE turn 2- rolls ~9PD, uses 6 to cast higher level pit of shades onto my bulls... it gets irresistable force then doesnt scatter.., I conceed, then roll the I tests anyway: my tyrant, butcher, BSB and 7 bulls die.


So 4 bits of luck from my opponent: 2 irrisistable castings, 2 non-scatters (of any note) and the game was over. It wasn't even a competition, and has left me with 1 inviolate rule: I simply wont play an army is it contains a mage capable of casting pit of shades or purple sun when after magic has been roled for... Im not even going to let it go that far against anyone using a Lv4 mage with shadow or death, it simply isnt worth the effect of openning my case, let alone getting an army ready.


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## VeronaKid

That's a run of really bad luck, T/S. Don't give in so easily, though. If you look at the % chance that your opponent would get as lucky as he did, you should be able to sleep a little easier.

Challenge him to a re-match! Tweak your list a little, bring some more Magical Defense, and I would bet that things will be different next time.

C'mon! You're our leader! You cant throw in the towel so easily! :victory:


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## Sethis

The problem is that there is no magic defence in the game apart from Feedback Scrolls which counter irrisistable sun/shades, and even then the spell goes off at least once.


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## Vaz

VeronaKid said:


> That's a run of really bad luck, T/S. Don't give in so easily, though. If you look at the % chance that your opponent would get as lucky as he did, you should be able to sleep a little easier.
> 
> Challenge him to a re-match! Tweak your list a little, bring some more Magical Defense, and I would bet that things will be different next time.
> 
> C'mon! You're our leader! You cant throw in the towel so easily! :victory:


Ogres have none - that's the whole point of what we're on about. Shit like 13th Spell, Gateway, Sun, Shades, Dwellers, and Transmutation are the worst things to come from the recent updates to warhammer.

Yeah, yeah, magic's meant to be powerful. But not in a balanced game - christ even Chess isn't balanced utterly, which is why two games are played, with each player taking white once and black once. When you're throwing in a grand total of in excess of 120 billion possible variances, (someone worked that out once on LO), there's not a cat in hells chance when the intention of some armies (re Dwarves, Ogres, Orcs, and Lizards) is to have low initiative, it's damn disgusting that they still haven't sorted out the whole "choose the right build and you've won before deployment" scenario.


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## Tim/Steve

That was the re-match. The other game he missed with 2 pit of shades and I dispelled the rest (forcing me to let a lot of shadow hex spells through). Fighting a block of over 50 LSG is bad at the best of times, but if you are reduced to T3 (as I was) or knocked to WS1-2 (I would have had to make a 17" charge that turn to make combat... oddly I didnt try it).

This HE player uses the mother of all anti-ogre units:
Archmage- Lv4 shadow, foliath's robes, talisman of saphery, scroll (immune to non-magical attacks, all magical weapons count as mundane.... so he's unkillable by any ogre)
Korhil
Caradryan
Noble- BSB, banner of the world dragon (immune to all magic of any sort)
~55 LSG- flaming banner

So I cant magic it, my best defensive spell (regen 4+) is totally useless, it has a mage that can accept challenges of any non-daemon/ethereal/tree spirit in the game and can't be killed (also cant attack... but its a mage), has caradryan who is one of the best and cheapest anti-character/ogre heroes in the game (especially since he blows up if you do kill him, causing D6 wounds) and korhil, who isnt especially great vs ogres but kills everybody else (and makes the unit stubborn even if it loses ranks).
In the last game I reached him (only taking about 16 wounds from his bows- about 1/3 of my unit), killed all the characters and the champ with the exception of the archmage (who had left the turn before to stop miscasts destroying the unit) and did enough wounds to win by a might 1. But then he has a steadfast Ld9 test to take which he easily passed... and the next turn I get hexed to bugger and back. With -1T (lucky) and -2 WS, I, M and BS because I have to save dice to stop pit of shades (which can be cast into combat because it targets a point, not a unit).... and oddly when ~35 attacks hitting on 3s with a reroll and wounding on 4+ hit a unit with no armour and no ward/regen that unit dies rather badly... plus I get flanked by a chariot and an eagle in the rear. I kill the eagle with thet last of my bulls, fail to kill the chariot with my tyrant (5A vs 4W... is a little tricky) and have lost the combat by about 12, so enev with the BSB close by Im running (and the chariot caught me).

Next turn the BSB runs in and kills the rest of the unit and tries to charge the solo archmage in the last turn (who simply flees- no longer counts as destroyed if fleeing at the end of the battle) and I lose a narrow game. I have a unit of ironguts, a BSB and a gorger, he has an archmage, 2 lion chariots and an eagle
... thats what happens when pit of shades doesnt succeed (and in the rematch Ive rebalanced my list to work better... I havent tailored, if so I would use 3 scraplaunchers and be done with it).

I might have had just about the worst luck possible in the re-match... but the point is that the HE should manage to cast pit of shades at least every other turn (even with me dispelling it) purely because he has the extra PD and *there is no defence against it.* The only thing that I thought might protect me was giving my BSB the greatskull and throwing him in the bulls with my other characters and hoping the archmage tries to hex them (any double 1,2 or 6 is a miscast)... but in this case I stupidly put my ironguts closer (well actually he put his unit close to the ironguts... I only had 4 things to deploy, but the terrain had forced me into my positions anyway) and when they were gone he didnt try to hex the bulls.


As for throwing in the towel... I wont do that, Im just not going to play shadow/death with my ogres. When they have a spell that not only can (ala gateway) but should 'end' one of my units is just not a fun game, especially when all my units start at ~300pts. I'll just have to play those armies with my WE instead- my WE's played this army before and just pincushioned it (actually it was worse before- had 2 more RBTs and a Lv2 fire mage instead of korhil and a couple of LSG). Pit of shades could only really hurt my treeman ancient, and he passed his I test. It would still have been nasty him being able to instagib my 375pt general... but at least the rest of my army would have been ok.

You know the game balance has been fecked up when even the potential of facing 1 of 2 spells makes you not want to play an entire army.


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## tyco

I must admit I haven't come across either lore of death or shadows yet in 8th edition (the armies I normally face are too besotted with either life or beasts...), so I find it interresting that it is dominating quite as much. Tbh, it sounds to me like the lists you have struggled against have been built to kill ogres reasonably well (though the HE you mentioned scare me also). How much experience do people have with going against generic lists written to take on all comers?


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## Masked Jackal

tyco said:


> I must admit I haven't come across either lore of death or shadows yet in 8th edition (the armies I normally face are too besotted with either life or beasts...), so I find it interresting that it is dominating quite as much. Tbh, it sounds to me like the lists you have struggled against have been built to kill ogres reasonably well (though the HE you mentioned scare me also). How much experience do people have with going against generic lists written to take on all comers?


The thing is that these spells can be used quite easily in an all-comers list. Both lores have uses that are good against pretty much everyone. It's just that against these particular armies, their use catapaults into the stratosphere.


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## Tim/Steve

Death is useful against everyone, but purple sun isnt that great against high I armies like elves.
Shadow can potentially be a gamewinner against anyone since they can lower the targets initiative by D3 and then pit of shades them. So against an ungodly hard unit such as MoT chosen with shields which has got the +1T and MR3/stubborn gifts on it (I've faced something similar and seen this combo in the last few weeks) you could lower them down to I2 and then cast higher pit of shades on them. Its basically the hardest unit in the game and you've just killed 2/3 of them in one spell (ok, 2 spells).

So shadow can hex its way through any game and be great, or death can either do hexs or snipe characters (even without using their evilest spells)... and just to put things in persepective. Death's soulblight can reduce the S and T of potentially every single enemy on the board by 1 in a single cast. Meanwhile my ogres can make one of their units +1T (and stubborn) and another (certainly not the same one) +1S... but in doing so Im likely to wound my butcher... and then those spells can easily dispelled in the opponent's turn as they are RiP. So if I have 3 units I have 1 at -1S/T, 1 at -1S and one at -1T and I've taken a wound to do it... yeah, I somehow think death utterly trounces my ogre lore even without purple sun.


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## neilbatte

T,S where was your runemaw if he hits you with either of these spells you just move the template 6" to your gnoblars, this even works on irresitable force as your not stopping the spell just changing the target.
It's the only defense we have against these type of spells but it's a good on


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## Vaz

I feel your pain, Steve. Playing with My Troll horde today, and got hit by a Sun - in a way, had better and worse luck at the same time.

I'd lost Galrauch to a half dozen cannonballs over the first three turns (got lucky, and he got a 3++ Save first time round, but it just wasn't enough, and his Irresistible Gateway rolled an amazing S2). My first Troll unit (I run 4 Trolls 3x2) contained Throgg - and this was targeted by Purple Sun the following turn. This unit had 4 S5 Attacks each, and Ld 9 (Mutant Regened 6 cannonball wounds first turn), and was next turn going to smash into his block of swordsmen, containing said wizard.

It wasn't IF, it was the bog standard Purple Sun. Anyway, he cast it, and not having a caster left, with only 3 dice thanks to a poor Winds of Magic, I obviously failed to dispel it - next I see the template placed, and it scatters, to cover only Throgg and 2 others, instead of 5 of the 6, and Throgg.

So, I roll my I tests - 1, 1, 3. Trolls have I1, Throgg has I2. Guess which one I rolled 3 for?

So, my army, excluding my DOgres and Warshrines were now Ld4 - which proceeded to get blasted apart by the gunline, and despite the Heavy Casualties caused on the Swordsmen, couldn't break them - and rolling poorly once, saw my unit flee and get chased down.

Poor, poor game. However - one thing I do note, is that Galrauch was the deciding factor in that match - his Magic gave me such a boost and shut down the magic so effectively that the game was a tie until he bit the dust. With Ogres, your Slaughter Master is I3, isn't he? Which means that there's a 50% chance that if the spell gets through on him he dies, on Galrauch, aside from being a loner (it shares the same base size as your Ogres, so if the small template scatters 4" or more, it's off the Dragons base), he's I6, so getting hit by the spell means it still has only a 17% chance of success.

I don't have Ogres to hand - what effect does the Slaughtermaster have on the unit? Is there any way you could run him alone to stop him getting caught in the Templates AoE as it targets the Deathstar?

I.e - do the Augments target the wizard and unit, or unit within X"?


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