# The Defenses of Terra



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Is much known about what is defending Terra? I know the Imperial palace has the Adeptus Custodes, but what about the rest of the planet? Is it just legions of Imperial Guard, or is there another Space Marine chapter devoted purely to the defense of Terra?


----------



## redmapa (Nov 9, 2011)

iirc there are a couple of titan legions garrisoned on terra along with its own PDF and the whole Imperium ; )


----------



## Arlex (Jul 2, 2012)

Imperial Fists, I believe, still dedicate a lot of resources to Terra. And that "just" Imperial Guard garrison is likely as large as the forces of the Sabbat World's Crusades so...


----------



## joebauerek (May 14, 2010)

I believe that the Imperial fists and a very small detatchment of space wolves are the only space marine forces allowed on terra.

As for the PDF id imagine that it is larger than any other pdf in the imperium and as stated above is more than likley larger than many crusading imperial armies. So thereforce probobly 1 billion plus actual soldier and then the quite real possibility of everyone on the planet being conscripted in times of need.

Then Battlefleet Solar is descibed as the mightiest battlefleet available to imerial forces so would probobly number into the thousands if not tens of thousands of ships of all sizes. And then all the defense instillations in space, on luna and then on terra itself.

Then theres the mechanicus of mars so there will be a number of titan legions along with all the tags alongs that come with them (skitarii and techpriests etc) numbering into the millions.

Theres also the inquisition and their available forces. I suppose you could include grey knights that would be available to defend terra.

Im sure theyll be some sisters of battle around on terra not too sure how many though.

Each navigator house has a small private army so they would probobly be used to defend terra.

Not forgeting the custodes but they only guard the palace so yeah... probobly numbering a couple of thousand.

So in conclusion theres a hell of a lot lol!


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

i imagine the entire solar system is devoted to the defence of Terra too and likely other near by systems will be on constant alert to come to the aid of terra if it was needed, but the chances of any full scale assault making it anywhere near the system is highly unlikely, just a build up of an army large enough to penetrate that deeply into imperial space would be noticed before it had chance to make the journey.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Bits is right, the only people ever to get near Terra are the Necrons, which was a stealth insertion anyhow. Even then, they had just one ship out of five land on Mars for maybe a minute or two before it was destroyed.

Midnight


----------



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Okay, so with all of that in place, how likely would it be for Terra to fall to the super Tyranid fleet or super Ork fleet that these forums have been flooded with recently? Seems to me that anything short of another heresy would fall short by a lot in an attempt at invading Terra.


----------



## Apostle (Jun 29, 2012)

IMO super Ork Fleet would take too long, and by the time Terra was 'falling' so many space marine chapters and guard regiments would have been called back to the fray it would no longer matter. Ork's are not particularly known for their tact and speed. They will just want to kill everything they see. You put a couple Hive Fleets together...I can see death coming to Mars and Terra yes.


----------



## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

As far as I can tell the only way to truly capture terra is attrition pure and simple. Horus was winning that battle due to isolating potential reinforcements until he decided he wanted a mono a mono duel with big E. I really only see Nids having the capacity for the scale of assault necessary to grind down the defenders. Chaos MIGHT have a similar chance but as mentioned the many regiments and chapters around the Imperium would be recalled. The Nid warp shadow right on top of the astronomican would make getting reinforcements very hard. Maybe chaos could stir up a storm or something but other than that I can't see another power really managing it. Or the Necrons could just make the sun explode, problem solved.


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Re-reading the Word Bearers omnibus recently they thought that if they could take and hold the system in the book (completely forget its name) that Chaos would be able to put enough of an Armada together to reach and destroy Terra before sufficient fleets could be mustered to stop them... I think there is a huge difference between taking and destroying Terra: can't say I've read much on it but the various Exterminatus don't seem that easy to stop unless you have fleet superiority. Can ground defences stop virus bombs/cyclonic torpedoes (or others)...


----------



## Arlex (Jul 2, 2012)

Not normally. But it's Terra. I'd assume they have everything to stop everything.


----------



## redmapa (Nov 9, 2011)

I wouldnt be surprised if Terra itself was surrounded by void shields or an artificial atmosphere/shield of some kind


----------



## Lord Commander Solus (Jul 26, 2012)

SonofMalice said:


> Or the Necrons could just make the sun explode, problem solved.





Tim/Steve said:


> Can ground defences stop virus bombs/cyclonic torpedoes (or others)...


Things like these create inconsistencies in the fluff, I feel. They're the "ultimate last ever resort" yet if Horus *really* wanted Terra to fall, why the heck not throw a few Virus Bombs at them to warm things up a little? A cyclonic torpedo or two onto the Palace would've been an absolutely gravy way to tell Big E you're coming. Instead he does, what? Drops his troops and advances. Like any other general. Not like a Warmaster.

Same can be said for the Necrons. They don't need light or warmth so if they actually wanted to cut the heart out of an empire they could just turn off all the suns...! For a race with the ability to singularly destroy every other living thing they don't go about it very efficiently. Heck, the Silent King wants to kill all the Tyranids, but the only way he can think to do it is by killing everybody else so they don't feed the Tyranids and make them too strong for the Necrons. Ok, fair enough. How does he go about doing this?

Batters his army silly trying to kill EVERYBODY so even if he manages it he's still too weak to fight the Tyranids. Because of course, it'd be far too easy to just turn the suns off...


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Lord Commander Solus said:


> Things like these create inconsistencies in the fluff, I feel. They're the "ultimate last ever resort" yet if Horus *really* wanted Terra to fall, why the heck not throw a few Virus Bombs at them to warm things up a little? A cyclonic torpedo or two onto the Palace would've been an absolutely gravy way to tell Big E you're coming. Instead he does, what? Drops his troops and advances. Like any other general. Not like a Warmaster.
> 
> Same can be said for the Necrons. They don't need light or warmth so if they actually wanted to cut the heart out of an empire they could just turn off all the suns...! For a race with the ability to singularly destroy every other living thing they don't go about it very efficiently. Heck, the Silent King wants to kill all the Tyranids, but the only way he can think to do it is by killing everybody else so they don't feed the Tyranids and make them too strong for the Necrons. Ok, fair enough. How does he go about doing this?
> 
> Batters his army silly trying to kill EVERYBODY so even if he manages it he's still too weak to fight the Tyranids. Because of course, it'd be far too easy to just turn the suns off...


Horus wanted to rule the Imperium. Destroying its heart (like the beacon for the astronomican) would have been a very bad move.

Also he had a bone to pick with the Emperor. He wanted to show him he could best him.

Necrons want to harvest the sentient life. Destroying all the suns would not be entirely conducive to it. Not to mention that many of the Necron lords are bound by rules of honor (now). It may be unsporting. Other lords are smug in their superiority. Why would they need to destroy a sun to defeat an inferior race? They can best them in battle.

Some of the Necron commanders also enjoy battle.


----------



## seermaster (Feb 22, 2012)

the nids will get tera eventualy 
dark eldar and or eldar could if they could open the webway portal
other than that civil war on heresy level on tera


----------



## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

The eldar/dark eldar don't have the resources or manpower to launch a successful assault on Terra, even if the Webway portal was working. I think it would have to be a morbidly obese Hive Fleet with all sorts of new, super-adapted organisms to take Terra. If Horus couldn't with the Legions, then there's little chance Abby can with his significantly small forces. The orks are just too divided, and the Tau are too busy figuring out whether love is better than good.
The only other race that come close to threatening Terra is the Necrons - but not in their current position, as they haven't fully reawakened yet.


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Just an observation.

It seems the majority of people are assuming that the shadow in the warp will just bugger over the Astronomican the moment the nids get close. But no one seems to have considered the alternative, that getting right up close to a psychic beacon powerful enough to cover most of the galaxy could actually fuck with the nids and the hivemind instead.


----------



## redmapa (Nov 9, 2011)

If the tyranids ever make it to terra then the necrons will probably go batshit crazy and nuke all the suns or something drastic like that, I mean if the nids managed to get to terra then there is nothing to stop them from consuming the rest, its either the necrons unleash their power or the chaos gods decide to unite and give the hive mind a bitch slapping it wont forget..


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> If Horus couldn't with the Legions, then there's little chance Abby can with his significantly small forces.


According to the Night Lords series Abaddon commands forces much larger than Horus ever did.


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> According to the Night Lords series Abaddon commands forces much larger than Horus ever did.



I would assume that's a number inflated from all the human renegades and traitors; the traitor garudsmen, mutants, cultists and such. I can't imagine that there are more Chaos Space Marines now than there were in 30k. They just don't have the resources or infrastructure or organisation to have rebuilt to such a size. There have been traitor chapters since it's true, but that's described as an extremely rare occasion.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> According to the Night Lords series Abaddon commands forces much larger than Horus ever did.


Talos mentions that the Black Legion itself has withered to the point where it has to rely on daemons and other forces to supplement its forces in the NL trilogy.


----------



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

If the Tyranids got close to Astronomican it would be just like when the Doom of Malan'Tai got into the craftworlds infinity circuit. The Tyranids would arguably become much more potent psykers if they could reach the Astronomican. 

And if the Tyranids would become a legitimate threat to Terra, there is no doubt in my mind that all space marine and imperial guard fleets would be called back for the defense of Terra well in advance. Hell, even the Eldar would produce a lot of resources for our defense, because they would know for sure that if humanity fell, it would not be long before they did.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Rems said:


> I would assume that's a number inflated from all the human renegades and traitors; the traitor garudsmen, mutants, cultists and such. I can't imagine that there are more Chaos Space Marines now than there were in 30k. They just don't have the resources or infrastructure or organisation to have rebuilt to such a size. There have been traitor chapters since it's true, but that's described as an extremely rare occasion.


Well, if we also use the Word Bearers series which claims that the Black Legion outnumbers the Word Bearers as much as 10:1, as well as more mainstream lore such as _Codex: Chaos Space Marines_, which states that "with every assault Abaddon leads, the strength of his Black Legion grows", it is not unreasonable to assume that the Black Legion (as a coalition of warbands) far outstrips the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus Legion at its peak.

Although it is unclear exactly what the claim from _Soul Hunter_, that Abaddon commands far more than Horus ever did, truly means. Whether it is referring to the size of Horus's Legion compared to Abaddon's, or the entire armies Horus commanded as Warmaster during the Heresy compared to Abaddon's hordes of Lost & the Damned is unknown. But I would argue that the Black Legion at the very least rivals the strength possessed by the XIII Legion at its peak.



hailene said:


> Talos mentions that the Black Legion itself has withered to the point where it has to rely on daemons and other forces to supplement its forces in the NL trilogy.


I can't fully remember the context of that claim, but take into account that Talos is bitter about the use of Chaos and daemons, viewing the Black Legion as weak for collaborating with Chaos. Perhaps it was a misguided claim as a result.

In fact, it seems to be assured that Talos was misguided in claiming that the Black Legion had withered, seeing as though all other established lore claims that the Black Legion has only grown in strength and numbers since Abaddon's rise as Warmaster.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Well, if we also use the Word Bearers series which claims that the Black Legion outnumbers the Word Bearers as much as 10:1, as well as more mainstream lore such as _Codex: Chaos Space Marines_, which states that "with every assault Abaddon leads, the strength of his Black Legion grows", it is not unreasonable to assume that the Black Legion (as a coalition of warbands) far outstrips the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus Legion at its peak.


I don't think the BL could outnumber the WBs 10:1 in Astartes. That would be insane.

The WB's forces are made up of "hosts". We know that a host is anywhere between 1000 and 3000 men. From page 543 of the WB omnibus:

"From the number of ships we are reading, I would hazard that there are around five or six Word Bearers Hosts bearing down on Boros..."

"If that is true, we may be facing anywhere between five and fifteen thousand Word Brother zealots."

I would assume the average number per a host is 2000.

We know that 45 hosts exist as an absolute minimum. From _Dark Creed_:

"More than twenty hosts have joined the Brotherhood. Dozens more will join before Erebus has any idea of the danger he is in."

That's assuming "dozens" means exactly 2 dozen and "more than twenty" meaning 21. And apparently that's not the whole of the WBs either, since that's only as many would have been swayed before Erebus would have discovered the plot against him.

So the extreme low estimate would be 45,000 WBs in existence (45 hosts at 1000 Space Marines each). This assumes that every other host, including Erebus's, would be swayed before he realized it, not likely given Erebus's flair for intrigue. And that by "2 dozen" it would strictly mean only 24 more hosts would join them. And the absolute minimum for the host size would, in fact, be the average size.

A middling estimate would say around 105,000 WBs (say 50 hosts in the Brotherhood, 20 not part of the Brotherhood and each Host made up of 1500 men).

A high end estimate would be around 220,000 WBs. Around 80 hosts in the Brotherhood, 30 not in it. 2000 space Marines per a Host. (Note "dozens" means 5 in this case.)

To outnumber the WBs in terms of Astartes 10:1 would probably mean the BL has 400,000 to a million Space Marines. Though a couple million would not be entirely out of the question.

That might fit with the idea that Abby has more Space Marines than Horus ever did, but it doesn't quite fit in the lore. With a million Space Marines he could steam roll through the Imperium. All the Black Crusades would be the barest skirmishes compared to the forces he could bring to bear.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I can't fully remember the context of that claim, but take into account that Talos is bitter about the use of Chaos and daemons, viewing the Black Legion as weak for collaborating with Chaos. Perhaps it was a misguided claim as a result.
> 
> In fact, it seems to be assured that Talos was misguided in claiming that the Black Legion had withered, seeing as though all other established lore claims that the Black Legion has only grown in strength and numbers since Abaddon's rise as Warmaster.


I don't think it was a bitter claim. Abaddon was argued into a corner. It's on page 168 of the paperback.

"After centuries of defeat, after failed Black Crusades, after infighting and war has bled your Legion dry, and draped you in ognominy among the other Legions? Is it not true that your men are slaved to daemons to make up for the great losses you have sustained since the death of your primarch? You leech strength from other sources, because your own Legion's might is almost gone."

Silence answered this proclamation.

Abaddon might have laughed. It would have been the act of a great leader to laugh, to humour a lesser warrior, to bring him around to his own way of thinking through persuasion and empathy--even were it all false. But Abaddon was not such a leader. * He was shrewd enough, at least, to guess Talos would never be fooled*."

I reconcile the difference between Abaddon controlling more than Horus ever did and Talos's statement by saying that, yes, Abaddon's forces are greater, but not in terms of Astartes. Abaddon may have more renegades serve under him, more cultists, more traitor Guard, and other forces (like daemons). As a whole these forces eclipse what Horus had. I would like to think, Space Marine to Space Marine, that Horus had more.


----------



## Apostle (Jun 29, 2012)

The only true force that could take it down, would be a massive congragation of Chaos Dwarfs....you guys DONT EVEN KNOW what they have been up to. Just don't even know.

Oh and to Hailene, i agree my friend(On Horus originally having more ACTUAL Astartes) and thanks for those numbers there on the Word Bearers, that actually helps my understand just how large their force really is.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

hailene said:


> I don't think the BL could outnumber the WBs 10:1 in Astartes. That would be insane.
> 
> The WB's forces are made up of "hosts". We know that a host is anywhere between 1000 and 3000 men. From page 543 of the WB omnibus:
> 
> ...


The issue I would have is not with the claim that the Black Legion outnumbers the Word Bearers 10:1, but with the numbers presented in terms of the Word Bearers. At their peak immediately pre-Calth the Word Bearers numbered around the 150,000 mark (having been 100,000 at the fall of Monarchia), to claim that they now number more than that is ludicrous. After Calth, the Siege of Terra, the Scouring, Lorgar's self-imposed exile and the internal power struggles which ensued, as well as being particually anal about their recruitment process, I can't see how their numbers would have increased at all. 



hailene said:


> That might fit with the idea that Abby has more Space Marines than Horus ever did, but it doesn't quite fit in the lore. With a million Space Marines he could steam roll through the Imperium. All the Black Crusades would be the barest skirmishes compared to the forces he could bring to bear.


The Black Legion encompasses the majority of all Chaos Space Marines, or at least the majority of all Chaos Space Marines owe some measure of allegiance to Abaddon. They may be a coalition based on the leadership of the old Sons of Horus Legion, but they are not just the XVI Legion with a new paint job. _Codex: Chaos Space Marines_ describes the Black Legion as a "loose coalition built upon the remnants of the Sons of Horus Legion", essentially an amalgamation of warbands led by individual lords who all owe ultimate allegiance to the Despoiler. 

To quote our own _Phoebus_:


Phoebus said:


> As to how they compare to the other Legions in terms of size? The World Eaters, the Emperor's Children, and, to a lesser extent, the Death Guard, are a mess. Their recruiting practices can't be as effective as those of a focused, disciplined Legion. The Thousand Sons are no rabble, but they go after the ultimate minority - psykers - and thus will always be tiny.
> 
> That leaves us with the Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Word Bearers. The Word Bearers, if you remember, were the second biggest Legion... but as far as their post-Heresy manpower is concerned, they have two big strikes. First, they took on the Ultramarines in a huge battle - that had to cost them some. Second, they killed all of their Terran Astartes. That had to involve tens of thousands of losses. Figure in the Siege of Terra, the Scouring, the inevitable infighting shown in the WB trilogy, etc., and when an author says the Black Legion is ten times bigger... he might be aiming closer to 200,000-300,000 than 500,000. And that's assuming it's not a rounded-off number (tenfold being easier on the tongue and mind than, say, ninefold or eightfold).
> 
> ...





hailene said:


> I don't think it was a bitter claim. Abaddon was argued into a corner. It's on page 168 of the paperback.
> 
> "...Is it not true that your men are slaved to daemons to make up for the great losses you have sustained since the death of your primarch? You leech strength from other sources, because your own Legion's might is almost gone."
> 
> ...


The Black Legion's IA article states several times that warriors under the Despoiler's banner actively seek out daemonic possession as a sign of favour from the gods, no where does it claim that they regularly seek such things to cover their own losses. As I said earlier, every source on the Black Legion (apparently apart from Talos' claims in _Soul Hunter_) state that they have only grown in power since Abaddon claimed the title of Warmaster. They have gone from possessing a single battle-barge (during the inter-legionary wars of the Eye) to having "champions of many Legions and gods [vying] to fight for Abaddon in the colours of the Black Legion", and to leading conflicts the scope of the 13th Black Crusade which saw the largest mobilisation of Imperial forces since the Heresy itself. 

Talos may take a negative view on their methods of collaborating with daemons, but I don't see how it can be denied that the Black Legion have swelled to incredibly vast proportions, even by ancient Legion standards. 



hailene said:


> I reconcile the difference between Abaddon controlling more than Horus ever did and Talos's statement by saying that, yes, Abaddon's forces are greater, but not in terms of Astartes. Abaddon may have more renegades serve under him, more cultists, more traitor Guard, and other forces (like daemons). As a whole these forces eclipse what Horus had. I would like to think, Space Marine to Space Marine, that Horus had more.


Going off averages, Horus directly commanded 100,000 Astartes during the crusade-era. Based on the lore, I would say with certainty that the Black Legion (being a coalition of warbands) exceeds that number.


----------



## Apostle (Jun 29, 2012)

Yes he does exceed that number having a very large grouping of Warbands who will fly to his banner at the drop of a hat. There is almost no argument that could possibly allow Horus to have commanded a larger amount of Astartes. The difference is Horus controlled his 100,000 directly. Where as Abaddon has certain 'allies' that would jump ship as soon as they realized they were personally in danger. Take The Night Lords. Talos and company went to assist him, then booked out when they realized the Blood Angels would throw a wrench in things. Horus had a better ability to make those under him ACTUALLY obey to the death.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Apostle said:


> Yes he does exceed that number having a very large grouping of Warbands who will fly to his banner at the drop of a hat. There is almost no argument that could possibly allow Horus to have commanded a larger amount of Astartes. The difference is Horus controlled his 100,000 directly.


Does it matter whether he controls them directly or not? After all they still flock to his banner, and he is capable of patching together armies the scale of which was seen during the 13th Black Crusade. 

The Black Legion is not one of the Legions of old, it is a coalition of warbands based upon the leadership of the remnants of the Sons of Horus. Those Astartes that fight in the colours of the Black Legion and who owe ultimate allegience to Abaddon, I argue, outnumber the 100,000 that Horus' Legion consisted of. The armies he leads in his Black Crusades are not just the Black Legion though, but forces forged from all of the traitor Legions. 



Apostle said:


> Where as Abaddon has certain 'allies' that would jump ship as soon as they realized they were personally in danger. Take The Night Lords. Talos and company went to assist him, then booked out when they realized the Blood Angels would throw a wrench in things.


Im not claiming that Chaos Space Marines are dutiful or honourable, as the Legions of old were. 

In regards to Talos and the Warband of the Exalted, whilst they have aided Abaddon, they were just as likely to fight against him as they were for him. But considering they were Night Lords, and not of the Black Legion, I don't think that example is much relevant. 



Apostle said:


> Horus had a better ability to make those under him ACTUALLY obey to the death.


Not really.

Abaddon had to stake his claim to command the remnants of his own Legion, and then slowly gain the grudging respect, and eventually, the support of the other Legions. Horus was due the support, even direct command, of the other Legions because of his position as Warmaster and instigator of the rebellion. That, and during the Heresy the structures of command still prevailed in the Legions; the Primarchs still reigned.


----------



## Apostle (Jun 29, 2012)

That does make sense. I'm just thinking as Night Lords were the only example off the top of my head. I am not sure if there was an original legion under Horus. After they had sided with him, who would run off at the battle for Terra before he died. I think they would fear him entirely too much to stop their assault. 

Where as yes Abaddon causes that same 'crap The Black Legion won't be happy with us' feeling...we have The Red Corsairs and other Renegade War Bands who simply could give a crap. During the time of Horus, not many would risk the wrath.

Though it is a sort of unrealistic comparison, since Horus was undisputed as Warmaster by the seige of Terra, and Abaddon has always had to deal with convincing others. Like you basically said (sorry no direct quote). Abaddon wasn't just named WarMaster, he had to work his ancient a** off to do so. I mean it's not as if The Word Bearers believed he should lead them. (some still don't)


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The issue I would have is not with the claim that the Black Legion outnumbers the Word Bearers 10:1, but with the numbers presented in terms of the Word Bearers. At their peak immediately pre-Calth the Word Bearers numbered around the 150,000 mark (having been 100,000 at the fall of Monarchia), to claim that they now number more than that is ludicrous. After Calth, the Siege of Terra, the Scouring, Lorgar's self-imposed exile and the internal power struggles which ensued, as well as being particually anal about their recruitment process, I can't see how their numbers would have increased at all.


A couple of points I would like to make.

My "low end" and "middling" estimate puts the WBs at significantly less than their peak GC strength of 150,000. The high end number is there only to give you an idea what they COULD have given the lore.

Even if it weren't so, what stops them from exceeding their original strength? Later on in your post you mention the BL exceeding their numbers, why not the WBs? After all, they've had 10,000 years (give or take the vagaries of the warp) to rebuild their numbers. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Black Legion encompasses the majority of all Chaos Space Marines, or at least the majority of all Chaos Space Marines owe some measure of allegiance to Abaddon. .


Could you cite the source that the majority of CSM follow Abaddon? Not just during the Black Crusades (where he has to scheme, bribe, or otherwise maneuver warbands to his cause) but nominally command them?



Phoebus said:


> First, they took on the Ultramarines in a huge battle - that had to cost them some. Second, they killed all of their Terran Astartes. That had to involve tens of thousands of losses. Figure in the Siege of Terra, the Scouring, the inevitable infighting shown in the WB trilogy, etc., and when an author says the Black Legion is ten times bigger... he might be aiming closer to 200,000-300,000 than 500,000. And that's assuming it's not a rounded-off number (tenfold being easier on the tongue and mind than, say, ninefold or eightfold).
> P.


The WBs numbered 50,000 at the battle of Calth. Even then, I do not believe they fought to annihilation.

The number of Terran Space Marines was probably low. The onset of the GC each Legion probably had around 10,000 Space Marines. I have no idea if Terra continued supplying Space Marines until the Primarch was found, but I imagine that the total number of Terrans in the WBs during their purgings not to be more than 10,000. Not when you consider 200 years of attrition.

After all, we see Long Fang in _Prospero Burns_. He's one of the rare few Terrans left in his Legion.

With their penchant for Chaos worship, I would imagine the WBs fled to the eye as soon as things started heading south. I would imagine they would have remained relatively unscathed during the Scouring. I'd probably pitch their numbers around 50-80,000 men, post Scouring.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Black Legion's IA article states several times that warriors under the Despoiler's banner actively seek out daemonic possession as a sign of favour from the gods, no where does it claim that they regularly seek such things to cover their own losses. As I said earlier, every source on the Black Legion (apparently apart from Talos' claims in _Soul Hunter_) state that they have only grown in power since Abaddon claimed the title of Warmaster. They have gone from possessing a single battle-barge (during the inter-legionary wars of the Eye) to having "champions of many Legions and gods [vying] to fight for Abaddon in the colours of the Black Legion", and to leading conflicts the scope of the 13th Black Crusade which saw the largest mobilisation of Imperial forces since the Heresy itself.


And in no way does Talos contradict that the Black Legion has swelled in strength. Their strength just lies outside their Space Marine numbers.

I see no contradiction in the canon. Both ideas can be melded into a single, coherent picture.


----------



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Sorry if this question was brought up in one of the discussions above, I do not feel like reading through it all, but how do the CSM replenish their armies? Do they have recruiting worlds like normal SM chapters?


----------



## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

well, for instance the Alpha legion infiltrated and destroyed a space marine chapter without pretty much any losses, they then went and stole their geneseed, both of the dead and what was kept in their fortress monastery.

Due to the fact most traitors reside almost exclusively in the warp and are all to certain degrees mutated their own geneseed can often not be used.

some Traitor legions use the geneseed of fallen Loyalist space marines, for instance Honsou of the iron warriors has the blood of Rogal Dorn in him.

the traitors also raid imperial worlds wherein there are large deposits of geneseed, most notably when Honsou cracked open a giant fortress containing copious ammounts of imperial fist geneseed, they then used this geneseed to create new traitor space marines


----------



## Emperorguard500 (May 5, 2010)

i think abaddon's 13th black crusade has a chance to make it to terra


----------

