# Tau Broken?



## Siege (Jan 18, 2008)

Okay, so I've recently begun collecting and playing a Tau army. I chose them mainly because I like the models, and I wanted an army that plays different from my Dark Angels. 

I've seen and heard a few comments online and at my local store that the Tau are a broken army, some people have even said that they will refuse to play a Tau army for that reason (not that I was looking for a game, I was just buying a few models). Now, I'm generally a hobbyist first and a gamer second, but I decided to build my Tau force for gaming, as I selected my DA units mainly for aesthetic reasons. 

It's pretty rare I even go into a store looking for a game, but when I do, I'd like to be able to find an opponent who isn't going to bitch about my army, as I heard enough sly remarks about my Space Marines (though nobody ever refused to play them). 

I don't think Tau are a broken army, they are an army with very obvious strengths and weaknesses, and I guess that can be exploited either way. 

I was wondering what the people on here think of the Tau Empire. Broken? Or not?

Shit, this was meant to be in general 40K. Could somebody move it please?


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

Broken definatly. however only for the fact of the skimmer rule, and that their normal gun has strength and range above all other standardized weapon's for other armies. a mechanized tau force can and does use its unkillable tanks to keep its weak in close combat troops out of said combat, thus negating their only weakness.... i cannot wait for fifth edition, and i pray the games workshop master minds had enough foresight to fix this horrid mistake. i play regularly at our game store and no one beats the tau player... ever. we've even played 3 on 1 matches with all playes playing equal points.. the tau player generally looses maybe a crisis suit... its rediculously wrong.


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## Siege (Jan 18, 2008)

If that is really the case I take it Tau have won all the Grand Tournaments since they were introduced?


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

Tau are no more broken than Eldar, IG, Necrons, Space Marines, Tyranids, Orks, etc. Anyone who says differently is a coward.

As you mentioned, Tau have their weaknesses and strengths, just like any other army. There are many ways to exploit those weaknesses, if one is willing to try, and not whine about how their army cannot handle another. That is simply not true.

Please do not let whiners ruin your enjoyment of the game.


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

the tau are broken but can be beaten if you are equal parts smart and lucky. if you can get a decent CC unit into melee with the tau, its game over...just use ur consolidation moves wisely
broken, yes. unbeatable, no.


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## skittlekitten (Feb 14, 2008)

very good grasshopper =o ya skimmers are mean and longer range infantry suck, other then that i still think theyre hella fun, kroot suck ass too, ill stop talking in l33t yarz


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## Siege (Jan 18, 2008)

Syko515 said:


> ... no one beats the tau player... ever. we've even played 3 on 1 matches with all playes playing equal points.. the tau player generally looses maybe a crisis suit... its rediculously wrong.


It seems ridiculous to me that 3 armies could not beat a single army one third of their combined size.


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## wetware (Dec 8, 2007)

The Tau are definitely not broken. Yes, their guns have good range. Yes, their guns are stronger than most. However, they have a glaring weakness. They cannot fight in hand to hand. At all. Oh, kroot hounds are kinda killy... but they get their faces eaten against any kind of CC specialist unit and they're as close as it gets for the Tau. As for the Tau's other advantages there are plenty of places where it doesn't work all that well.

First off, Crisis Suits are just not that fast. 12" is a long way when you're comparing to a marine, but not when you're comparing to a marine with a jump pack who is intent on assaulting. Or, god forbid, a bike, jetbike or the SM Land Speeder. That, folks, is how you make a dead crisis suit, if you didn't already know.

Secondly, yes. Tau tanks are pretty tough. They're nigh invulnerable, even...

Sorry, but no. The highest AV the Tau have access to is a 13, on the front quarter of the Hammerhead. Everything else is 12 or lower. The Tau also do not have access to a bunch of nifty upgrades to keep you from damaging their tanks. There is precisely one vehicle upgrade in the Tau armory that forces a reroll and then only on one potential result on the glancing damage table. There are two upgrades that could make a vehicle obscured, but that just downgrades a penetrating hit to a glancing on a 4+. You're better off moving quickly. I'll keep the homework to myself, but a tricked out Tau Hammerhead has the following chances of surviving a shot from a single guardsman with a lascannon on the front of the tank:
50% Guardsman Misses.
25% Guarrdsman Fails to penetrate armor.
9.02% Crew Shaken, Tank may not fire.
4.86% Crew Stunned. Kill it next turn. Duh.
.69% Immobilized. Decoy launchers are figured in.
4.86% Armament Destroyed
4.86% Tank Destroyed.

So you have approximately a 1 in 10 of effectively killing it with a single lascannon fired by a guardsman. Honestly, that isn't all that bad when you compare it with, say, a tricked out falcon. Shoot it from the side or the back and things just get easier. A marine with a lascannon should kill it about 1 in 8, btw.

Syko, I hate to be the bearer of bad news here... but if you're playing 3 on 1 there's and losing there's one of three things happening here.

1) The Tau player is cheating.
2) You're playing on a large flat board with cover in only the Tau quarter.
3) You guys are awful. A mobile Tau force is sorely lacking in number of shots. You should not be taking this many casualties.


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## Siege (Jan 18, 2008)

Thanks for taking the time to do that Wetware, it's interesting to see the numbers.


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## Apokra (Jan 28, 2008)

Wetware them being the 13/12 threshold I, as a opponent, wouldn't waste a las cannon shot on them, auto cannons definitely, las cannons put at crisis suits  
It just seems more viable to me, but it could be my odd target priority rolling around in my head. 
Thanks for the math though!


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## morfangdakka (Dec 31, 2006)

Tau are not broken. Are they a tough army when played correctly , yes but so is any other army when put in the hands of a skilled player. 

People that usually say an army is broken because they don't know how to exploit the armies weakness. People usually charge straight ahead with no thoughts on tactics and are surprised when they get shot to pieces and they can beat them. I don't think any army is broken even when space marines armies were taking 9 assualt cannons, I just have to adjust tactics. Tau can be beat by using longer range barrage weapons on the warriors and by assualting them. For my orks I use lobbas that do not need line of site to hit as well as big shootas that have a longer range than tau guns. I use trucks and scorchas to race up and dump off assualt troops or hit them with flame temples. THe tanks are hard but not impossible to handle.


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## Silb (Jan 28, 2008)

I don't believe they are broken. They just have incredible advantages in certain situations. Just like playing a necron army or a high cost tank in a 500 pt game gives you a major disadvantage; certain terrain configurations, situations, and units will give the Tau MAJOR advantages. If an army has no bikes, jet/jump packs, tanks, or deep striking units, then a tau army can flank and completely destroy it with much ease and few (if any) casualties. However, even against an incredibly mobile army, they are still a force to be reckoned with. I don't believe they're broken, but I do believe they should be slightly weakened or have their points cost increased slightly.


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## whocares (Jan 11, 2008)

Eh, the only broken thing about the tau is that fast skimmers are broken, and they can take fast skimmers. That does not make for an entire codex being broken. Falcons are far more difficult to kill. And honestly, fire warriors having better guns than any other basic troop choice? Big deal, I'll take a marine's ballistic skill and armor save any day.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

The problem with Tau is that they're extremely difficult to engage in close combat, which is their only real weakness. I don't think the codex is broken as a whole... but I do think that the mechanized builds which combine the dimensions of a devilfish in combination with how the rules are worded is kind of lame. It's just not really any fun to play against. I invariably get shot down at the starting line, so to speak.


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## Triumph Of Man (Dec 27, 2007)

Siege said:


> Okay, so I've recently begun collecting and playing a Tau army. I chose them mainly because I like the models, and I wanted an army that plays different from my Dark Angels.
> 
> I've seen and heard a few comments online and at my local store that the Tau are a broken army, some people have even said that they will refuse to play a Tau army for that reason (not that I was looking for a game, I was just buying a few models). Now, I'm generally a hobbyist first and a gamer second, but I decided to build my Tau force for gaming, as I selected my DA units mainly for aesthetic reasons.
> 
> ...




I posted a Tomb Kings list on WargamerAU, the response I got was amusing to say in the least. Included was general verbal abuse about being "A cheesy dick" to threats of violence if they ever met me.

What was the problem? The list had two Screaming Skull Catapults in it. Go figure.

To be honest, your complaint isn't the first I've heard. I've seen several people ask the same question about Tau due to responses from peers, and invariably it boils down to the army isn't broken, just your opposition hasn't got a fucking clue.

Hit them with a stick for me, please.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

I do think atm that tau are one of the stronger armies out there and there is little that is great at taking them out. They've got the best anti-heavy vehicle solution in the game (railguns/broadsides) and nearly the best light vehicle solution (missile pods on crisis suits as well as a boatload of str 5 ap 5 throughout the army). They're hardly unbeatable though. As soon as they fix skimmers, hammerheads will be about as good as predators. Also fish of fury is pretty easy to get around for cc armies that don't rely on transports or a 6" move.


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

I agree. Tau are most definitly not broken. Fast moving units, namely Assault Marines, LS, Bikes and such will rip the tau a new one without breaking a sweat. Assault Cannons can deliver blows to their tanks and infantry like nothing seen before. a single deep-striking dreadnought with an AC and HF will lay waste to anything nearby in its first turn, then distract a fuckload of fire in their turn. multiple dreads doing the same thing, and then termies with 2 AC's is just ouch. or do the reverse, sit back and shoot, on a standard board 48 inches is plenty enough to hit things on the other side, so things like ML, LC and other long range weaponry can, and will out shoot the tau.

The Tau may be able to mount large guns, but definitly not enough of them. The most Railguns you will get in one army is 9, and thats freakin expensive and will not be seen at a standard 1500 point battle. say 2-4 railguns. compare this to the amount of lascannons a SM army can take. 1 in every 5 man squad, plus 3 mounted on a tank for 145 points. then theres Devastators. i wouldnt put it past a LC heavy 1500 list to have upwards of 7 or 8 lascannons, far out-gunning the tau. 7-8 lascannons vs AV 13 or below will rip the tau to shreds. and the str 9 ap 2 will kill all but the most hardy battle-suits outright. firewarriors, take a few units of FA, assault marines or even LS and those firewarriors are screwed.

i acknowledge the fact that this was written from a SM point of view, but just substitute similar weaponry from your own army in and you get my drift. Tau are not broken and can be beaten, just move to one extreme or the other, dont hover in the middle, because that will lead to your demise, unless you are very skilled.


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## Triumph Of Man (Dec 27, 2007)

> Broken definatly. however only for the fact of the skimmer rule, and that their normal gun has strength and range above all other standardized weapon's for other armies. a mechanized tau force can and does use its unkillable tanks to keep its weak in close combat troops out of said combat, thus negating their only weakness.... i cannot wait for fifth edition, and i pray the games workshop master minds had enough foresight to fix this horrid mistake. i play regularly at our game store and no one beats the tau player... ever. we've even played 3 on 1 matches with all playes playing equal points.. the tau player generally looses maybe a crisis suit... its rediculously wrong.


I'd rate that statement on an accuracy chart at about... oooh say a 2/10. 1 rank below A Current Affair report.


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

broke yeah.. lets give them a new codex before dark eldar ??

sarcasm


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

Hespithe said:


> Tau are no more broken than Eldar, IG, Necrons, Space Marines, Tyranids, Orks, etc. Anyone who says differently is a coward.
> 
> As you mentioned, Tau have their weaknesses and strengths, just like any other army. There are many ways to exploit those weaknesses, if one is willing to try, and not whine about how their army cannot handle another. That is simply not true.
> 
> Please do not let whiners ruin your enjoyment of the game.


Hear hear...


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

Tau are awesome, and most certainly not broken, my tau army almost managed to beat a 'cron army due to the fact that i had help, but who cares that was a year ago. Tau are awesome to play, if they are broken then im the queen of sheba. If people moan about tau being broken they are just cowards.


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## Metal_Ead (Jan 30, 2008)

Fish 'eads, fish 'eads, fish 'eads, yum! The tau are alright balance wise, and beatable. 5th edition will iron out their wrinkles.


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## Ario Barzano (Jan 18, 2008)

Well i have played tau a lot as it is my brothers main army, they are not unbeatable, what you need is fast attack, a squad of scouts some close combat terminators, use infiltration and then teleport homers drop your terminators into the enemy front line shoot with the drop pods storm bolter and rush the enemy


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## Crimson Death (Feb 16, 2008)

As a tau player I have had my crisis battlesuits ripped up by lascannons from gaurdsmen. But I had a ting called a railgun! With strengh 10 ap 1 it killed all of his tanks ank a few gaurdsmen.


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

roberto2391 said:


> Well i have played tau a lot as it is my brothers main army, they are not unbeatable, what you need is fast attack, a squad of scouts some close combat terminators, use infiltration and then teleport homers drop your terminators into the enemy front line shoot with the drop pods storm bolter and rush the enemy


I think this advice is only good against gun line FW. Up against Skimmers and Crisis Spam you'll soon find your termis out manouvred and wiped out. Probably the sme turn.


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## wetware (Dec 8, 2007)

Apokra said:


> Wetware them being the 13/12 threshold I, as a opponent, wouldn't waste a las cannon shot on them, auto cannons definitely, las cannons put at crisis suits
> It just seems more viable to me, but it could be my odd target priority rolling around in my head.
> Thanks for the math though!


No problem. When you have a game of 'chance' math is one of the things that separates those who win from those who do not. I just wanted to point out that Tau skimmers are by far not the worst out there. In fact, compared to some they're downright reasonable. I just chose a lascannon because of a shoutbox conversation about the math on killing a holo-fielded falcon a few weeks ago. It had become the de facto mathhammer 'what if' in my mind. If you want to plug in an autocannon, simply multiply all odds of nasty things happening to the Hammerhead by 2/3 to represent the different strength and the multiple shots, so there's actually less chance of the AC getting through with it's two shots than the lascannon breaching it with one. Quantity has a quality all of its own, I'm told. 

BTW, check this out. Based on something I read, somewhere.... 
oh.... there's a guardsman with a lascannon in this, too...

50% Guardsman misses.
25% Fails to reach AP threshold.
8.33% Cover Save
11.1% Glancing Hit
6.48% Crew Shaken
2.16% Crew Stunned
2.16% Weapon Destroyed
.31% Immobilized 


5.55% Penetrating Hit (Downgraded to glancing due to Distort Field or sensor spines 50% of the time.)
.925% Crew Stunned
.925% Armament Destroyed + Crew Stunned
.925% Immobilized (Assuming Decoy Launchers still only work on a glancing hit.)
1.85% Destroyed
.925% X-plodes

8.02% chance of an effective kill, including crew stunned.
So... 5th Ed isn't proposing a broken skimmer fix. At least not for Tau.

Edit: Changed damage tables. Whee!


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

I checked your math and I agree. A ~10% chance of return on a guardsman's lascannon shot isn't great. If my math is right, that's actually worse than the ~13% chance of stunning/destroying/shaking/immobilizing a tau skimmer as 4e stands now. At least it isn't that hard to reliably shut a skimmer up in 4e (prevent it from shooting) but the proposed 5e makes that harder while at the same time making them more resistance to being killed too. Unless they make it so disruption pods and SMF don't stack, tau skimmers will actually be tougher than eldar skimmers. Hardly the nerf that the community is looking for.


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## wetware (Dec 8, 2007)

Actually, the Falcons are much much tougher than the Tau tanks, but are also much more expensive. The same guardsman has about a very low chance to take out a Falcon. Ah well... may as well do the math...

50% miss
16.67% Fail to reach AV threshold.
25% Crew Shaken. (No Crew Stunned due to Spirit Stones)
4.21% Immobilized (Vectored Engines Prevent Crash.)
3.09% Weapon Destroyed.
1.03% Destroyed

So there's about a 5.24% chance of eliminating the Falcon as a threat even though the Falcon will most likely be able to shoot back until it gets hammered again. That being said, the trusty autocannon works a lot better here since the Falcon's only AV 12.


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## Triumph Of Man (Dec 27, 2007)

You're not factoring in holofields, those are what make the bastards so hard to kill.


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## wetware (Dec 8, 2007)

Holo-fields are factored in. I just forgot to mention that they were. I guess since I've never seen a Falcon without a Holo-field in this edition I didn't even think about the fact that there is such a thing as a non-HF Falcon.


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## Triumph Of Man (Dec 27, 2007)

> So there's about a 5.24% chance of actually destroying the Falcon, but the Falcon will be able to shoot back until it gets hammered again. That being said, the trusty autocannon works a lot better here since the Falcon's only AV 12.


I was talking about this, it contradicts your list.


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

Tau being my first army that I played for 2 years I have to say are not broken. In fact I still think their to weak. Get anything into HtH with a Tau army and its toast. Plain and simple. If their spamming Crisis suits then they are using up tons of points on relatively few units. Consentrated fire power on those units and their toast. If their spamming Hammerheads then I say they cant kill enough of your units to matter. Again concentrate your heavy fire on one each turn and youll have all 3 of them down by the end of turn 3 or 4.

For the Fire Warriors / Kroot / Vespid I say just use Ap4 weapons on them and they drop like flys. If their not dropping then their running. And even the Kroot can be easily defeated by IG in HtH if they Carapace armor.


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## wetware (Dec 8, 2007)

OH! OK, I see what you mean. No, I combined the immobilized and destroyed sections because once it stops moving it's basically dead with another round of shooting since penetrating hits are now possible. I'll go back and edit my post so it's less confusing. My bad.


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## Crimson Death (Feb 16, 2008)

Yes but A tau Pirannha with a fusion cannon, on a normal size board has the abbility to get behind the enemy line and reak havoc on their tanks in 2 turns and there considerably cheaper than most skimmers. And as all tau tanks are skimmers the fire worrior can shoot under them whilst the enemy has to waste fire on the tank.


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## Sinizter (Dec 10, 2007)

Or you can just make a target priority check, and shoot back under the tank at the firewarriors.

Piranha's are no different than any other bike/melta, jetbike/blaster combo out there. Dark Eldar can do it, Space Marines can do it, etc. Nothing special there.

I've played against Tau with CSM, Tyranids, and Dark Eldar. Yeah Broadside teams are nasty. They're about like Chaos Obliterators without all the weapon options.

Their skimmers are like Eldar skimmers base cost for them is high, and any upgrades make them insanely expensive. As well it's nothing a standard Havoc squad can't blow out of the air in a turn. 
I can tell you right now a autocannon Havoc squad is Tau's worst nightmare.

They're far from broken for a well setup army. I'm not talking about a "I know I'm playing against Tau today." type army just a solid well rounded army.

I've heard about every army out there called broken. Dark Eldar, Eldar, Tau, Tyranids, Necrons, etc. None of them are broken. Your tactics are broken, your list is broken, your opponent is superior in both respects, or he's cheating badly.


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## wetware (Dec 8, 2007)

The Space Marine land speeder is the only skimmer and the Eldar Vyper are the only skimmers I can think of that are really comparable to the Pirahna. Both have a cheaper base cose, similar AVs and speed.

The land speeder can have a multi melta for the same price as the Fusion Blaster equipped Pirahna. A multi melta. Think about it. OR! You can put an assault cannon on it for more points. The vyper Can have a Missile Launcher for the same price as the fusion blaster pirahna. It also has secondary TL shurikats that can be upgraded to a shuricannon.

Basically, aside from the gun drones, both of these vehicles are much more lethal options than the pirahna.

As for Skimmers not blocking LOS, oh well. They can't be used as mobile cover, either. (Well... the Tau can. But not while you're shooting under them. And it'd just be silly to use the landing gear in almost any situation.) Try a target priority test some time. They work pretty often.

Edit: Damn. Beat me to it.


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## Crimson Death (Feb 16, 2008)

yes but thats why another reason for piranha's et them forward so the enemy has to shoot the whilst you blow them apart with railguns. Or you can hold them back behind your line and release them on the enemy at the perfect moment to cause devestation


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## Metal_Ead (Jan 30, 2008)

Actually the Piranah is armour 11 and better than SM Landspeeders or Eldar Vypers.


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## wetware (Dec 8, 2007)

Right. Because it's AV 11 and can't be taken down by bolter fire on one quarter. But better armored does not equate to better, as it will have a +1 to all damage rolls due to it being open topped, so that more than mitigates the AV 11 IMO.

The point I was trying to make here, but seem to have to spell out, is that the only comparable skimmers in the game cost less base and with the expenditure of a few more points are far more capable, at greater range. I'll take an assault cannon and a heavy bolter for 15 more points any day over a vehicle with a fusion blaster and a pair of gun drones.


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## Ubiquitous (Feb 17, 2008)

the open topped rule wouldn't negate the av11, the higher armor means that most armies standard infantry weapons (excluding tau) can't get through its armor. 

Anyways, back to the main issue. Tau are no more broken than any other army that has been built to win. If you build a powerful list with tau, and play it well, then yes. It will be very hard to beat you. The same thing is true for building an imperial guard list, and they use flashlights. If someone won't play you because you're playing tau, either they're playing a gunline army and know how bad a match up it is for them, or you don't want to play them anyway because they're being an idiot.


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## CommanderDuskstorm (Jan 31, 2008)

Bishop120 said:


> Tau being my first army that I played for 2 years I have to say are not broken. In fact I still think their to weak. Get anything into HtH with a Tau army and its toast. Plain and simple. If their spamming Crisis suits then they are using up tons of points on relatively few units. Consentrated fire power on those units and their toast. If their spamming Hammerheads then I say they cant kill enough of your units to matter. Again concentrate your heavy fire on one each turn and youll have all 3 of them down by the end of turn 3 or 4.
> 
> For the Fire Warriors / Kroot / Vespid I say just use Ap4 weapons on them and they drop like flys. If their not dropping then their running. And even the Kroot can be easily defeated by IG in HtH if they Carapace armor.


I tend to agree, and from what I've heard about 5th ed. it's only going to get worse for the Tau Empire. Skimmers are getting nerfed and 5th ed. seems to be made for horde, HtH armies. With the run and the "get down" rules being brought in it'll only be easier for CC armies to get to the Tau, and everybody knows Tau are useless when it comes to CC. 
Personally I think GW is going too far with the 5th ed. rules changes. It's almost like their over-compensating for 4th ed. being a more shooty army ruleset. They need to try to make the rules fair for all races instead of trying to make it up to the CC armies that were unhappy with 4th ed.


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

erm i have to disagree with ALOT of this topic mainly everyones opion on there weakness ... COMBAT.

a tau crisis trash army can be imense in combat.

---2 str 5 attacks each + drones. t4 with 2 wounds each (without charging)
---the commanders are oviously even harder with up to 4 attacks s5 and 4 wounds (which can be t5 and have 4+ invun and feal no pain) (without charging)
---also farsight 4 or 5 s5 power weapon attacks (without charging)
--- and broadsides are a bastard to kill in combat by most units 
t5 2 wounds, 2+ save and drones, 2 s5 attacks back.(without charging)

what i am trying to say is that yes there inative is poo but that doesnt nessasary make them bad. i think they ARE verging on being broken because they can EASILY out shoot you, can out movuner you and in some case can beat you in combat, so what is there weakness???

kroot if used wisely can be orsom as well with hounds they can be even better.

thanks
martin


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## SyNide (Nov 24, 2007)

Lol, This is the funniest thing i've seen. an ELDAR player saying that Tau are verging on broken? Sorry could you speak up louder? I can't hear you from inside my unkillable Falcon.

They can be immense in combat....against guardsmen or firewarriors. I've seen a gun drone win combat and sweeping advance a squad of guardsmen. But anything else? nah.
Come on, 2 S5 attacks? pft. The main reason(other than low T) for CC being a weakness for Tau is the fact that it stops their guns from shooting.

Tau are broken? Not at all, in fact my Dark Eldar TA'ed this tau player in 2 turns(the moment i hit combat it was all over for him). Siege, don't let noobs who don't want to learn how to beat a certain kind of army spoil your fun. They can't beat Tau, so they try to rationalize that they are broken, when they should instead be looking at their own weaknesses.


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## Triumph Of Man (Dec 27, 2007)

> what i am trying to say is that yes there inative is poo but that doesnt nessasary make them bad. i think they ARE verging on being broken because they can EASILY out shoot you, can out movuner you and in some case can beat you in combat, so what is there weakness???


I agree with that 100%!

Provided they're fighting a Guardsman in assault...

Seriously mate, have you never heard of a Powerfist and Instant Death?



> Lol, This is the funniest thing i've seen. an ELDAR player saying that Tau are verging on broken? Sorry could you speak up louder? I can't hear you from inside my unkillable Falcon.


Now _that_ I actually do agree with.


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## Siege (Jan 18, 2008)

Yeah, I've managed played a few games with my new Tau army and I don't think they're broken at all, I've already suffered two losses, but having said that, I should also mention that I've had three victories. :biggrin:

Also, what is this about unkillable skimmers? Both my Devilfish and my Hammerheads have been killed in games. They seem to continually draw a lot of fire and they go down for good sooner or later, maybe I've just been really unlucky. I don't mind too much cause when my skimmers are getting shot up my Crisis suits are being ignored. :laugh: Does anybody else think Crisis suits tear shit up as much as I do?


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## Baby Eating Bishop (Feb 29, 2008)

falcons arnt unkillable they cost nearly the same as a land raider with upgrades and dont have 14 armor


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## STATIC (Feb 11, 2008)

Ok. I'm about to show my inner newb.
What does "Broken army" mean?


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## KharnTheBetrayer86 (Feb 26, 2008)

Broken army mean, essentially, an army that is very very good with no obvious weaknesses. So tau have great fire power, thier skimmers are (apparentally) hard to kill and they can avoid combat if they stay in transports and never bring their full firepower to bear. Making them very hard to beat for any army that doesn't have anything above basic equipment...wait..that doesn't sound too bad.

Crisis Suits are ok in combat, but don't try and comparte them to any CC specialists. As usual i have my berzerkers for example, one squad charged a Tau squad of Crisis suits and proceeded to rip off their arms and legs without a single returning hit, let alone death. But then my Champion had a power weapon, and its very rare you see a unit champion with anything but power weapons or power fists.

...oh...wait.

To be fair most the armies to say "tau are beatable" Have been power armour wearing armies, or Imperial guard. What say Tyranids, orcs, eldar, dark eldar...Any opinion on this?


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

Triumph Of Man said:


> I agree with that 100%!
> 
> Provided they're fighting a Guardsman in assault...
> 
> Seriously mate, have you never heard of a Powerfist and Instant Death?


seriously mate you never herd of drones?? and they can defo hold there own vs most purly for the 2 attacks.



SyNide said:


> Lol, This is the funniest thing i've seen. an ELDAR player saying that Tau are verging on broken? Sorry could you speak up louder? I can't hear you from inside my unkillable Falcon..


wow how small are you to beable to fit into a module tank??? and when did say eldar wernt broken??



> But anything else? nah.
> Come on, 2 S5 attacks? pft. The main reason(other than low T) for CC being a weakness for Tau is the fact that it stops their guns from shooting.


yes i know it stops them shooting but that doesnt make them bad in combat because there shooting is better.



> Siege, don't let noobs who don't want to learn how to beat a certain kind of army spoil your fun. They can't beat Tau, so they try to rationalize that they are broken, when they should instead be looking at their own weaknesses.


actaul dude i have quite a respectable record vs tau (gt lists, crisis spam) and i do know how to beat them. im not saying dont collect them as alot of people do and have a great success rate. eldar holo spam that is broken but people still take it.

martin


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## STATIC (Feb 11, 2008)

KharnTheBetrayer86 said:


> Broken army mean, essentially, an army that is very very good with no obvious weaknesses. So tau have great fire power, thier skimmers are (apparentally) hard to kill and they can avoid combat if they stay in transports and never bring their full firepower to bear. Making them very hard to beat for any army that doesn't have anything above basic equipment...wait..that doesn't sound too bad.
> 
> Crisis Suits are ok in combat, but don't try and comparte them to any CC specialists. As usual i have my berzerkers for example, one squad charged a Tau squad of Crisis suits and proceeded to rip off their arms and legs without a single returning hit, let alone death. But then my Champion had a power weapon, and its very rare you see a unit champion with anything but power weapons or power fists.
> 
> ...


I have taken a win against Tau with my Nids. Was my second ever game and i had no idea what i was doing. It was very close though.
I still dont know how i did it to this day. :shok:


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## SyNide (Nov 24, 2007)

martin4696 said:


> seriously mate you never herd of drones?? and they can defo hold there own vs most purly for the 2 attacks.


Drones can only do so much. So what if you have 2 more attacks, i strike first with 6 WS6 S5 Re-roll misses power weapon attacks after travelling 32" across the board to assault you on the first turn. Then try to hit me, let alone wound me with my 2+ invul.



> wow how small are you to beable to fit into a module tank??? and when did say eldar wernt broken??


How small am i to be able to fit into a module tank? Lol Thats a funny joke.

Oh god, how stupid of me, i should have realized that your first post about Tau "Verging on broken" was a joke and not actually serious! Lol, yeah, you're right Tau are SOOOOO broken, i gotcha :wink: 




> yes i know it stops them shooting but that doesnt make them bad in combat because there shooting is better.


Well, T3, shit Initiative and lousy WS makes them poo in combat against every other armies' cc specialists. Hell, even some armies basic troops(Dark Eldar Warriors would easily beatdown firewarriors any day).




> actaul dude i have quite a respectable record vs tau (gt lists, crisis spam) and i do know how to beat them.


So why are you saying that tau are verging on broken? Does it somehow make you a better player because you can beat an army that's verging on broken? What is the point of your post?



> im not saying dont collect them as alot of people do and have a great success rate. eldar holo spam that is broken but people still take it.


The only smart thing you've said so far, and i agree with you here. :good:

@Kharn: Kharn, i played my DE against a Tau player and Totally Annihilated him in 2 turns, so DE won't have problems(well not more than you would against other armies) against Tau. I'll speak for DE in saying Tau are not broken :grin:

@Baby Eating Bishop: You're right about falcons being killable, but that doesn't mean they are not nigh unkillable. Sorry but i've seen games where the falcon has received something like 15-20 glances and all it got was shaken and weapon destroyed. It's not the falcon thats deadly, it's the cargo. And this thread isn't about falcons, the only reason i mentioned falcons was to show the irony of Mr. Martin's post, guess it didn't translate well over the net >.<


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## Kronus (Mar 1, 2008)

I play Daemonhunters and Orcs and while I have only come across Tau lately (i never had to fight one in a tournament and up until 6 months ago no one in my local club played Tau) and since then I have played them several times

Luck with dice and careful strategies have brought me two clear victories over the Tau and one unfortunate defeat with my Daemonhunters. The first victory was in a take and hold mission were the Tau were simply not up to evicting my completely fearless army from the key objective. The 2nd victory was a wipe out as my opponent took a Etheral and I had a vindicare waiting for him. On the second turn half the army was but to flight as the Etheral went crashing to the ground and numerous leadership tests were failed. The only loss I have sustained against them was an ill concieved 1v1v1 were my force which is of equal points was the piggy in the middle sitting on the central objective a hybrid Tau force and a armoured company either side of me. The two forces spent the whole of there two first turns lying vast amounts of firepower solely on me so defeat was enievatable.

While Daemonhunters and GK's are certainly powered armour I believe they are a world away from spacemarines and IG and are ultimately at a major disadvantage when facing a all mech force and had I fought one it may have gone very differently. My army list inherent lack of AT weaponry means Daemonhunters are very ill equipped to fight and defeat a mech force be it Tau or Eldar. The victories i have one where a result of luck, tactics and the fact I was fighting static or partly static armies. Still I don't think Tau are broken, merely competitve, something that Daemonhunters are unfortunately not.

Orks (who I have recently got in too) on the other hand are very competitive and I have in both battles I have fought against the Tau I scored a decisive victorys. I proved in my last match that while Tau may dominate the quality end of the firepower market that these canny ranged hoof legged xenos can be beaten on their own terms. With two units of tankbusters, a full squad of lootas, a mek with a KFF, a mek with a SAG and more shoota boyz (armed with effectively assault 2 bolters) then you can shake a stick at I proceeded to show that quantity beats quality. Skimmers when shot at by 15 rokkit launchers tend to not survive and focusing on his transports rather then heavies by turn the end of turn two his entire list was footslogging it. It was close run at one point with his crisis suits deep striking in at the wrong moment and my SAG deciding to destroy a mob of shootas before blowing itself up but I carried the day never the less with only the odd skimmer and a lone crisis suit standing upright at the end of turn 6

Orks can field competitively against the Tau matching them for firepower and manoeuvrability, Nids from what I have seen however aren't all that good when fighting a mech list


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## Triumph Of Man (Dec 27, 2007)

Baby Eating Bishop said:


> falcons arnt unkillable they cost nearly the same as a land raider with upgrades and dont have 14 armor


They're not unkillable, but they're a hell of a lot tougher than a Landraider due to Holofields and the skimmer rules. Went up against one in a local tournament on the weekend, took 4 turns of me pummeling it with every s7 weapon and higher I had available to bring it down.

And I was playing Imperial Guard, go figure.



> Orks can field competitively against the Tau matching them for firepower and manoeuvrability, Nids from what I have seen however aren't all that good when fighting a mech list


Depends what sort of Nids. Gaunt and Stealer heavy armies can have a bit of trouble if they don't have any Sniper Fex/Acid Tyrant support, but Nidzilla tend to laugh it up against Mech lists.


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## Roy (Feb 29, 2008)

I have quite a lot of Tau and used them a lot, they're good against all but 
Orks and tyranids


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## DarKKKKK (Feb 22, 2008)

it is definitely possible to beat them
i have a good friend of mine that plays Tau very well
and the Tau he is using, half of it came from me selling it to him

weakness of Tau is CC and Speed/Out-Flank 
you have to draw the Tau's attention away from the CCs of your army
but not as much in a distractive way, but still keep his eye on something on your army thats could or already is tearing his Tau up
and even if he decides to go after your CCs first, use that to ur advantage and move up your anti-hammerhead and anti-broadside units into range to kill them off

i play Ravenwing
and that can work very well against the Tau as long as i can out flank and out think my opponent
i have the speed and much better CC ability than the Tau
and as long as i have no chance at shooting him, i use the Turbo Boosters to get there faster and get that invulnerable save
and my best unit to use against the Tau by far are my Attack Bikes with MMs
you must be agressive with MMs for them to be affective


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

SyNide said:


> Drones can only do so much. So what if you have 2 more attacks, i strike first with 6 WS6 S5 Re-roll misses power weapon attacks after travelling 32" across the board to assault you on the first turn. Then try to hit me, let alone wound me with my 2+ invul.


true about drones but then everything can only do so much.
ok u have 6 attacks u kill 2-3 shield drones well done i then attack back with 6 s5 attacks hitting on 4s i only need u to roll a 1 and ur f**ked. also what character are you on about, lith?? as thats the only character i can think of that could move that fast. and i also think a unit of kroot could proberly beat off this character.

and if you dont go first that tank will be blown up faster than you move.



> How small am i to be able to fit into a module tank? Lol Thats a funny joke


glad you think so i try to please.




> Well, T3, shit Initiative and lousy WS makes them poo in combat against every other armies' cc specialists. Hell, even some armies basic troops(Dark Eldar Warriors would easily beatdown firewarriors any day).


firstly yes well done your CC SPECIALISTS can kill my 6 fire warriors, thats the point SPECIALISTS!!




> So why are you saying that tau are verging on broken? Does it somehow make you a better player because you can beat an army that's verging on broken? What is the point of your post?


no .. you were saying that i cant bet tau, so i am calling it broken with simly isnt the case. the point of my post is my answer to the question.


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## SyNide (Nov 24, 2007)

Well, your first post certainly didn't do much to answer the question, what is your answer to the question?

Theory is nice and all, but on the board, Archons definitely kill more than 2-3 drones, in fact i've killed tons of those suits, so your estimation of the Archon's killing power is wrong. You also forget about things like terrain. Come off it.

My CC specialists can best even Eldar cc specialists because of the simple fact that they are counter-cc specialists, you think tau will be hitting well at 4+? 4+ is hard to roll. The number of hits wyches dispense is immense(can't say the same for wounding unless they get the right drugs). 

And did i once say that YOU can't beat tau? 

You read the post wrongly. You're reply even shows that you don't know much about Tau. They aren't broken, simple as that.


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

SyNide said:


> Well, your first post certainly didn't do much to answer the question, what is your answer to the question?


my answer is yes they are very close to being broken. and yours is there not in the slightest (i think)



> Theory is nice and all, but on the board, Archons definitely kill more than 2-3 drones, in fact i've killed tons of those suits, so your estimation of the Archon's killing power is wrong. You also forget about things like terrain. Come off it.


yer but everyone has had something like that, 1 gaurdsmen going thought a whole troop army (IT COULD HAPPEN which is what you are saying) , and u should kill 3 drones IF all hit and wound. and what about cover??? i know what a archon can kill i have a friend who came 6/7 in last years GT final with a wych cult army that i helped him build it so you saying that i dont know is completly wrong AGAIN.come off it



> My CC specialists can best even Eldar cc specialists because of the simple fact that they are counter-cc specialists, you think tau will be hitting well at 4+? 4+ is hard to roll. The number of hits wyches dispense is immense(can't say the same for wounding unless they get the right drugs).


 "best" i guess you mean beat. im not saying you cant if you couldt beat eldar specailist then what would be the point in dark eldar??? and like i said i play a wych cult ALOT so know what they can or cant do.



> and did i once say that YOU can't beat tau?



i think someone was implying that ow yer here it is



> Siege, don't let noobs who don't want to learn how to beat a certain kind of army spoil your fun. They can't beat Tau, so they try to rationalize that they are broken, when they should instead be looking at their own weaknesses.





> You read the post wrongly. You're reply even shows that you don't know much about Tau. They aren't broken, simple as that.


how do i dont know about tau, what have i said that makes me not know about tau?? They are (verging) on broken simple as that.

thanks
martin


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## captain delaque (Feb 18, 2008)

i would say the tau are fine i could easily say the same about necrons i have never been able to beat them not because the opposing player is any better than me but in my mind i have already lost, because i instantly thing i my god necrons, so i have defeated myself. tau i can regulerly beat so most of the time if you think you will lose then you will lose, hink positive and stick to your game plan and you will do better.


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## Estragon (Feb 25, 2008)

Hmmm. Less c*ck waving gentlemen, more creative thinking please. The ' Only glance if they moved more than 6" ' is key: When combined with fast movement, multi-trackers, disruption pods, decoy launchers and lots of S5 weapons eligible for 'armament destroyed' rolls you do have some extremely survivable tanks. My best advice: If you stun or immobilise one, it has to die. Quickly.


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

*HOW TO KILL MECH TAU: Outlast him.*

*Anyone who says Tau are broken does not possess enough speed in their army.


No, not methamphetamines.... Get more mobility in your lists and watch a mech tau army's options shrivel...

*_
Throw some fast flankers up a side to hem him in. Advance a strong fast assault unit by hopping from one terrain piece to another. 

If he has a castled firebase, push your units through regardless of casualties.

Sacrifice units to make sure at least some part of a strong assault component makes contact...



I've had a game in which my whole Death Company was wiped out except for my Chaplain before combat ever ensued...

He proceeded to wipe out 24 firewarriors and two broadsides. Both of our combat rolls were very average. That is how bad Tau are once you get to grips with them...


In a different example, I have spent two long games being potshotted to death by a very crafty mech tau player who had everything either in a skimmer tank, on a jetpack, or was a skimmer tank dancing away and shooting SMS all from behind cover...


I could not get LOS on any part of his army besides his two suicide piranhas for the first 3 turns..


He knew all his rules and all the inside tricks, for example, detaching his cheap drones to engage shooty units and prevent them from firing in my turn...

*Yet I won both games by taking [and limiting] his punishment like Rocky playing rope-a-dope and outlasting his initial advantages...

In both games he felt he had the game in the bag. Mech Tau players will often try to press a perceived advantage when your army appears shot-up and worn down.

This is when you close the net.


Keep your wits about you in the early turns and move you army to surround him with two fast, strong wings and shrink his space to move...

Worry less about getting shots on him, and more about achieving a superior position...

Soon one side of your wing will flush him right into another's reach...

His Hammerheads are tough, but not very useful if they can't shoot. Shoot till you get ONE glance. Viola, he wont be firing any submunitions into your mobs...

If he's playing mech tau, his most expensive, most vulnerable units will be mounted firewarriors in a devilfish.

But how are they vulnerable if they never come out to play...?

If you plan right, they will come to YOU.

Don't forget the objective(s). Later rather than sooner, he will have to try to claim one with his scoring units. You know what the objectives are, and where they are. Plan accordingly and make sure you have something saved for a welcoming committee...*_:threaten:


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## Hivemind Demeter (Nov 6, 2007)

A simple answer?
I have never had a problem eating Tau.
I deepstrike ONE Lictor and their army falls apart.

Tau are powerful in their firepower and mass of it, but even their mechs fall at some point.


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

Hivemind Demeter said:


> A simple answer?
> I have never had a problem eating Tau.
> I deepstrike ONE Lictor and their army falls apart.
> 
> Tau are powerful in their firepower and mass of it, but even their mechs fall at some point.


Exactly. Get one moderately capable unit into the firebase and they fall apart.

Not everyone gets the luxury of a unit capable of assaulting right after deepstriking, though...

I would say they are the ultimate unit against tau, as you don't have to weather their substantial firepower to mess up his gameplan...


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## Hivemind Demeter (Nov 6, 2007)

Sons of Russ said:


> Exactly. Get one moderately capable unit into the firebase and they fall apart.
> 
> Not everyone gets the luxury of a unit capable of assaulting right after deepstriking, though...
> 
> I would say they are the ultimate unit against tau, as you don't have to weather their substantial firepower to mess up his gameplan...


Granted it DOES assault same turn, my point being is that it only takes one deepstrike for Nids to kill off Tau, so it shouldn't be that bad for everyone else.
Hell, my friend deepstriked some Termies in my tau firebase and I spent my entire turn firing at them and killed ONE.
You can guess what the assault termies did then.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Hivemind Demeter said:


> Granted it DOES assault same turn, my point being is that it only takes one deepstrike for Nids to kill off Tau, so it shouldn't be that bad for everyone else.
> Hell, my friend deepstriked some Termies in my tau firebase and I spent my entire turn firing at them and killed ONE.
> You can guess what the assault termies did then.


I had the same thing happen. Flubbed a couple of my plasma rifle rolls and out of his whole terminator squad his commander survived...who then proceeded to beat the tar out of some firewarriors, my broadsides, and my commander. The rest of my army finished shooting up the rest of his and got far away from him so that when his rampage ended so did he, but it was kinda scary for awhile. Sure he lost 250 points or so of terminators and eventually 150 or so of commander to be able to accomplish this feat, but it was definitely a spanner in my works. Had he invested more into the fast assault, it would have been worse for me by orders of magnitude.


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## thomas2 (Nov 4, 2007)

Tau broken? No chance. My Tau have lost every single one of their vassel games, while my Dark Angels owe 2 out of 3 of their victories against Tau. Simple fact is they die at close combat, as everyone else has already said, and aren't unbeatable at shooing.


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

i dont think there are many armys that can outmonuver a tau army at a competitive level


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## Triumph Of Man (Dec 27, 2007)

martin4696 said:


> i dont think there are many armys that can outmonuver a tau army at a competitive level


Orks, Eldar and Dark Eldar all have the speed to get the jump on Tau with the right builds. Tyranids to a degree can also achieve that, although they trade off extreme speed for large numbers, allowing them to cover a very large portion of the board.

Not to mention Tau aren't that fast to begin with, anyone that has access to units that move 12" a turn can keep pace with them.


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## SyNide (Nov 24, 2007)

Triumph has a point. Not to mention some armies can make up for lack of speed with durability. Of course some armies might have more trouble with Tau than others but that doesn't mean Tau are broken.


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## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

whya re they broken. the guys who would refuse are pathetic


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## Imperial Dragon (Dec 22, 2007)

i play tau with my nids and i stopped using a lictor just so we can have a longer game, hormagaunts are a good pick for nid players and when i use cover they get even better the only thing i really have trouble with is there tanks and i often see Dark Eldar, Eldar and Space Wolves (drop poding) kill Tau even faster then me.


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## sneakNINJA (Jan 24, 2008)

The only tau army that might scare me is mech-tau. Other than that, they are so horribly one-dimensional on the shooting front that they are often considered the newbie army in our area.


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## Siege (Jan 18, 2008)

I wouldn't call them a newbie army. In fact I would suggest beginners stay well away from Tau, they're not exactly easy to use. 

Well, I guess I got my answer, kinda. Some people have sworn the Tau are ridiculously broken and others have said the Tau are too easy to beat. The truth is probably somewhere in between, I guess it all depends on who your playing and how your playing.


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## Spartan Command061 (Feb 16, 2008)

If there is a broken thing about tau, it is yet to make itself apparent to me. Yes FoF is a bitch for certain armies, such as daemonhunters and pure khorne lists, but only if they are led by a leader who spends more time licking his axe than paying attention to the battle plans. If you are losing to tau and your an assault army, you are more than likely running straight towards them and deserve the many plasma and pulse shots that kill you.

We can be outshot, by guard and certain SM builds.
We can be outmanourverd, Speedy Nids, Eldar, Dark eldar, Deep Striking Chaos, SM and Guard.
We can definetly be out assaulted, - everyone bar another tau army. Yes my drones have a perculilar taste for Archon flesh, but we generally die. Sure the crisis suit will beat a guardsman or two, but he costs how much more?

We do one thing very well, and that is out pansy-ing the enemy. A clever tau player will not allow his precious suits to be shot, however super fast assaulters such as nids and bikes catch them regardless.

I can't remeber who said our tanks are unkillable, but thats just :crazy:. AV13 gets mauled by lascannons and rockets, autocannons also hurt. And our only fast vehicle is the pirhana, enough said there.

As for a basic man having a tuned down heavy bolter, he costs 10pts and woopdeedoo, BS3. I pay 215pts for a LD8 unit of 12 with a practically useless tank, that can maybe protect me from assault, but not being rapid shot or ap4'd to death. If a unit of 12 Rapid Fires, i hit with 12 and against T3 wound 10. Not bad for 215pts. However a unit of terminators costs that much and infinetly more versatile.

Tau also are the weakest army Leadership wise, paying an extra 10pts per squad for LD8, and having no fearless or way of boosting that higher, apart from joining our hq directly to a squad. Ironically we are the best at pinning and the best to pinned. The tau's worst enemy are themselves.

The crisis suits are also the target of a load of bitching. The JSJ rule seems a tad unfair, but so does BS3 on our bloody elite unit! Yes we can boost it but then we can't take two weapons because we can't shoot them both. Or we can have bs4 and two weapons but then he's a team leader and 77pts average. What else do we get apart from JSJ? hmmm? NOTHING! JSJ is our little trick, certainly a pain in the arse, but so is rending, furious charge, indirect ordenance, 13lascannons, ordenance, AV14, assault units, psychic powers.... do you want the whole bloody list or will all those still whining about Tau (Who are not often on the list of GT winners, I can't remeber seeing one since Tau:Empire) shut up?

Anything that I've missed? Please post it so I can enlighten you to the complexity that is Tau. We are the middle ground between Guard and Eldar, got a problem with it? Talk to my Deathrains.


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## SyNide (Nov 24, 2007)

Haha, well said Spartan, right from the horses. Tau Broken? Not at all, Tau verging on broken? You must be mad.


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