# Kurze Tragedy?



## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

Ok so from reading various night lords stuff i.e. Throne of Lies, Soul Hunter and Dark King I totally understand where Curze was coming from with his POV on how to run a place i.e. with absolute rules and terror being the legitamacy of the regime.

BUT is this POV purely from his genetic makeup (his was the emperor's wrath or sense of justice), was it purely because of the particular's of Nostramo or was it brought on by his curse?

The use of obedience through fear of reprisal is hardly new but essentially what I am asking is was night haunter's world view due to his genes or his environment?

I wonder this mainly because to me at least it seems like his visions were a self-fulfilling prophecy purposely propelling him upon the path he took?!

Apologies if the above is a little convoluted


EDIT: CURZE not KURZE.......damnit


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Its the old nature vs nurture question.

It would seem to be that all the Primarchs were products of their homeworlds, Curze included. But there may be more to it, especially considering Curze instinctively reached for a weapon upon setting eyes upon human civilisation...


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

I must admit to me the reaching for a weapon is most likely to do with whatever happened while he was in the pod, whether Chaos pratting about or he had a vision.....or of course he is the most cynical person alive


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

I don't think that they are a simple product of home world with the 18 primarchs we know about, the worlds are generally too perfect for them, as if they were purposfully led to each world, magnus would not have done well on fenris, russ not well on macragge etc etc etc

for curze i think his views were dominated by his loniliness, of all the primarch he was truly alone, his early experiences with man showed them as spiteful and cruel, wherein people ONLY responded to fear. Suely that would be enough to slightly warp your view on mankind


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

demonictalkin56 said:


> Ok so from reading various night lords stuff i.e. Throne of Lies, Soul Hunter and Dark King I totally understand where Curze was coming from with his POV on how to run a place i.e. with absolute rules and terror being the legitamacy of the regime.


Uh... really? :shok:

Curze's point of view and code of ethics came about because he grew up alone, with no love, friendship, or guidance, on a planet dominated by crime, violence, and murder. That's tantamount to someone raising a child in a closet and doing nothing but beating it every day of its life; then, once it has been released to society and it in turns reacts to others in the only way it has known, legitimizing its actions.

Curze was damaged goods. From his "education", to his relations with others, to his sanity, to ideas about society, he was absolutely a man apart from humanity. He was only familiar with the negative aspects of mankind and his only answers to said aspects were negative reactions of his own. He was incomplete, unable to reconcile with or understand his fellow people.

Exemplifying just how blind he was to what he was doing and the very basic notions or "right", "wrong", and "too much!" were his very last days as a living being. Sitting in a palace made of corpses and still-living bodies, extolling the need to absolutely crush and terrorize people--innocent or guilty--he still talked about how his willingness to die somehow justified his actions... and somehow purported to be surprised/feel slighted that his father would send people to kill him.

The Emperor and his regime were absolutely brutal, but their brutality and the conditions they imposed on people after the war were at least calculated, and aimed at forestalling an even greater evil. Curze was just off his rocker. He did the things he did not as a last resort (to affect Compliance when all else failed), but in a business-as-usual sense. His claims--as to what people were really like and capable--were absolutely bullshit products of a demented psyche. Only a totally lost cause such as Curze could claim that you needed to butcher, terrorize, etc., to get people in line when the well-known examples of Macragge and, oh, _pretty much every planet the Ultramarines stepped on,_ existed as examples as to how wrong he was.



> BUT is this POV purely from his genetic makeup (his was the emperor's wrath or sense of justice), was it purely because of the particular's of Nostramo or was it brought on by his curse?


I think Curze's "curse", his psychic abilities, were a separate thing altogether. IMHO, I think they were only truly responsibly for his fatalism. His insane notions as to justice and social structure were, I think, purely products of his unbelievably fucked-up upbringing in Nostramo.



Barnster said:


> I don't think that they are a simple product of home world with the 18 primarchs we know about, the worlds are generally too perfect for them, as if they were purposfully led to each world, magnus would not have done well on fenris, russ not well on macragge etc etc etc


Nah, I don't think so.

Magnus could have just as easily adapted to Fenris. He just wouldn't have been as great or well-travelled (in terms of the Empyrean) a Psyker. Russ could have landed on Macragge and just as easily become the head warlord of Illyrium, turning that whole planet in some crazy mash-up of Rome and the Goths.

Ultimately, though, I agree that Chaos may have had a hand in choosing what planet each Primarch landed on. Still, I think the Primarchs themselves are a proper product of said planet.

Cheers,
P.


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## Radeb86 (Apr 2, 2011)

I will say from the outset that i have not read any books on Curze, i have listened to the audio book once, but i was also driving at the time. From everything that has been written so far in this thread it does stand, as Phoebus has laid out, that it was mostly the environment. 
When looking at children and their development it has been proven that the surroundings play a huge role, how a mother looks and acts with a child etc. What im trying to say is the science backs up the case that the messed up world and upbringing was what would of played the huge effect on creating a messed up Primarch. 

Or to put it in far better language:


> His insane notions as to justice and social structure were, I think, purely products of his unbelievably fucked-up upbringing in Nostramo.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Lets face it.

Konrad Cruze is the 31st Millennium's Batman -- on steroids ... and crack.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

Phoebus - just to clarify I said I understood his POV not sympathise with it; I realise he did have a screw loose lol. I view his actions much akin to what Rorschach would do on a planetary scale.

It is my opinion that his biggest fear was his visions coming true and his perceptions of Nostramo led him to believe that the 'moral laxity' was what would ultimately bring them to fruition hence his rule of terror.
It was when he saw that he was wrong once he had left Nostramo that I believe he actually cracked under the pressure of this realisation and then blew up the planet and went on his merry self destructive way.


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## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

To be honest all the primarchs can be looked upon as tragic figures. They were all such wondrous god like creations that were only matched in their power by there colossal failure. Most of them are dead or lost, others are slaves to the dark gods playing the endless game of chaos. Not exactly what the emperor had in mind for them.


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## Worldkiller (Jun 16, 2010)

raider1987 said:


> . Most of them are dead or lost, others are slaves to the dark gods playing the endless game of chaos. Not exactly what the emperor had in mind for them.


Or is it?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

Worldkiller said:


> Or is it?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!


Oh god really?

Im sure the Big E wanted to total the human race....

Every writer that has written about the Big man himself has always shown him to be pretty dedicated to the human cause!

His sons however, as is proven by the HH, be as dedicated to Humans as he, I.E the traitor Primarhhhhs.

But is more predominant in Curze from the beginning!


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

personally i think curze had some bad DNA in him from the beginning or something and his enviroment and self upbringing just contributed to his character flaws even more.

no other primarch reached for a weapon on getting out of those pods and seeing as they should know anything at all through lack of knowledge curze seems to have this instinct to get down to business from the start.

everyone else can try and say the others had father figures to guide them but none of them had those father figures as soon as those pods opened but none of the rest went for a weapon before even taking a breathe. 

we all talk of russ and angron being crazy hard bastards but curze has really started to shape up as the last primarch you would ever want to cross. this guy is a complete psycho. russ is only savage because of the harsh enviroment and way of life on fenris and angron is only a lunatic because of abit of orkish technology fused to his brain lol.

curze choose to be mental in a sense. besides not being able to control his visions he choose his way of operating and he was the only one to take control of his world with menace. this guy is the lucifer of the angels. 

i really hope when they produce a picture of him it does him total justice and gives us a sense of just how this primarch would be the last one you would want coming to your world to claim it for the imperium. :s


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

I always though Horus was Lucifer myself

Anyway, it has been my opinion that the reason Curze reached for a weapon straight away is that he was plagued by visions at least some of the way in the pod and didn't know what was happening to him; also for all we know Chaos played with his head while there as well.


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## Moriar the Forsaken (Apr 18, 2011)

Spoiler:



Lord of Night suggests that Kurze was very mentally ill, but was nevertheless used by the Emperor out of necessity. See what revelations Acerbus provides to Sahaal near the ending.

Lord of Night and Soul Hunter also suggests that the bastard was the one who destroyed his own legion by setting his captains on specially chosen paths.

The "Long War" against the Imperium is ironically what it takes to reduce his once powerful and INTACT legion into splinter factions never able to influence anything on the scale that Abaddon could.




demonictalkin56 said:


> Ok so from reading various night lords stuff i.e. Throne of Lies, Soul Hunter and Dark King I totally understand where Curze was coming from with his POV on how to run a place i.e. with absolute rules and terror being the legitamacy of the regime.
> 
> BUT is this POV purely from his genetic makeup (his was the emperor's wrath or sense of justice), was it purely because of the particular's of Nostramo or was it brought on by his curse?
> 
> ...


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## Moriar the Forsaken (Apr 18, 2011)

In ancient times during sieges, generals have been known to kill their own families in order to spare them the hideous torture and degradation that would occur when the besiegers win.

I think Conrad destroyed Nostromo for the same reason.

It was in his mind a mercy and yet another step on his path to self destruction.



demonictalkin56 said:


> Phoebus - just to clarify I said I understood his POV not sympathise with it; I realise he did have a screw loose lol. I view his actions much akin to what Rorschach would do on a planetary scale.
> 
> It is my opinion that his biggest fear was his visions coming true and his perceptions of Nostramo led him to believe that the 'moral laxity' was what would ultimately bring them to fruition hence his rule of terror.
> It was when he saw that he was wrong once he had left Nostramo that I believe he actually cracked under the pressure of this realisation and then blew up the planet and went on his merry self destructive way.


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