# Female Space Marines, why exactly not?



## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Now, before anyone kicks me in the nuts, please read.
I know there can't be ACTUAL female marines (you could have cyborgs or something), and I know that making fluff to excuse it is a waste of effort.

But I just wanna know the reason why there CAN'T be female Space Marines.
My current understanding is that the established methods for implants and chemical therapy don't react well with Estrogen / need lots of Testosterone to work properly.

Discuss please. :3


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## officer kerky (Jun 12, 2008)

hmmm tough question but there are sisters of battle.

but that is a question i wouldnt mind answering if i knew the question.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

officer kerky said:


> hmmm tough question but there are sisters of battle.


SOB are basically just women in armour, with guns, and bibles to throw at people.
They don't have the neural interface that space marines do, so for them the armour is clunky.


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## Liber Heresius (May 10, 2009)

I think what your talking about is discussed in this thread: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=37408


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Liber Heresius said:


> I think what your talking about is discussed in this thread: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=37408


No, it isn't.
I've read through the whole thing already, that's to do with whether or not Marines can have sex.


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## Gul Torgo (Mar 31, 2008)

According to Lexicanum



> Recruits must be fairly young, because implants often do not become fully functional if the recipient has reached a certain level of physical maturity. They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types.


Of course the real answer is that the Astartes are fulfilling the crusader/knight archetype, which is classically associated not just with men, but with the very best of "masculinity." People (specifically guys) are uncomfortable with that kind of subversion.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Well I'm a guy, and I'm not uncomfortable with it.
Yes, it's a generalisation, and probably an accurate one, but it's not always true.

So basically, there's no real evidence to suggest that with a fair bit of tweaking, there COULD be female space marines, is there?

I still won't try it, if I were to make a female Marine, I'd certainly excuse it by other means, probably extensive hormone and steroid therapy, and extreme surgical and cybernetic enhancement.
Heck, I think that'd make a SWEET force commander.

"I call her, Hammer Bitch!"


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

The way GW puts it makes it look like its impossible because for some reason the space marine transformation proccess was designed for adult males. For some chemical or genetic reason trying to make child or female space marines would often end in death or disfigured space marines. In all honesty I think they did it to make the whole 40k thing seem more Gothic, and depressing. I mean woman's right beyound reproducing or becoming nuns madness I better go get the Spanish inquisition after you err I mean Inquisition. Also it mean they don't have to model male, and female space marines bodies think of the savings. Also I imagine a female space marine would also be rather ugly since marines have bodies build like fridges. I mean no one wants to have to feaild a army comprised of 400 pound bald bull dike marines with stubble (err that's a image even slaanesh would shy away from. So those are my 4 or so reasons for why there aren't female SM.


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## Captain-Octavius (Mar 29, 2009)

Because there aren't any does not mean there can't be any.

There is, to my knowledge, no solid proof as to why Chicks can't be marines.

As far as I am concerned, if they can succeed through the trials, then by all means.


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## Lupercal101 (Jan 26, 2009)

the actual build of a woman is different from a man, men were built by naa\ture to be stronger. female marines would have less muscle and stuff. and because they lost the technology to build the suits, the suits they got were only built for a man. her boobies would get in the way and make wearing the armour uncomfortable, reducing effectiveness. even if they cut the boobs off they would have to invent a new smaller suit and a new smaller black carapace, pretty much beyond anything the Imperium can do at the moment


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

female scouts I could believe, scouts don't yet go through the full process like a Normal marine does, so it could be possible, but they just wouldn't advance further.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I'm gonna go with the hole psycial thing: marines are made to be bigger and stronger then the average human... since most men are alreay bigger and stronger then most women it would seem to be a logical choice to take men for your supersoldier experiments.

Alternatively... it may just be that the SM are like the Russian athletes from a while back. Even though they may technically be 'women' there isnt that much difference to the men. IE, some marines are actually women but they've butched up so much that its just impossible to tell any more. We're talking about some seriously bearded ladies here...


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

On a interesting side note you could have female chaos space marines for reasons varying from oh say slaanesh to fabius bile.


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Lupercal101 said:


> the actual build of a woman is different from a man, men were built by naature to be stronger. female marines would have less muscle and stuff. and because they lost the technology to build the suits, the suits they got were only built for a man. her boobies would get in the way and make wearing the armour uncomfortable, reducing effectiveness. even if they cut the boobs off they would have to invent a new smaller suit and a new smaller black carapace, pretty much beyond anything the Imperium can do at the moment


Actually, SoBs wear power armour too, and it's quite obviously been modified to fit a female bodyP). Same goes for Carapace armour, the IG has female troops who wear it. They'd be modified to the same extent.

At any rate, according to the lexicanum, the whole SM project was build using male genetic material, stuffing that into a female body would undoubtable lead to mutation and all sorts of incompatibility problems, making female marines an impossibility.


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

I was always assumed it was because the Emperor was Male (bear with me). And because of this I assumed that it would be impossible to create Female Primarchs (if he used his own tissue and possibly Gametes to engineer the Primarchs, they would always come out male.)

And the Gene seed (Gene being the important word here) would be from a male body and perhaps only acceptable for a male recipient.

But that got me thinking... You can receive transplanted organs from someone who is of the other gender.

@Gul Turgo on the Lexicanum quote; This is basically what I was thinking, but what exactly is 'male tissue?' and it wouldn't be hard to flood a Female Body with Male Hormones


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

You know what would be hilarious if their where female marines, but becomeing a marine made them male. That would explain why so many don't want to talk about their past. I can see it now. srg-so marine whats your rank and name. mrn-Cindy. srg-err that's a unusual name mind to explain. mrn-sorry sir I really don't want to talk about it.


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## White Knight (Apr 17, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> The way GW puts it makes it look like its impossible because for some reason the space marine transformation proccess was designed for adult males.


Actually the space marine transformation process was designed for teenage boys around 10-16 because then they're body is changing(Puberty) and more likely to accept the new organs.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> You know what would be hilarious if their where female marines, but becomeing a marine made them male. That would explain why so many don't want to talk about their past. I can see it now. srg-so marine whats your rank and name. mrn-Cindy. srg-err that's a unusual name mind to explain. mrn-sorry sir I really don't want to talk about it.


XD
That's awesome!

Stella Cadente makes a good point, it would be an unstable transition to make in the first place, so not many of them would survive the process.
So, having about 3-1 Male to Female scouts, and 10-1 Male to Female full marines would make a bit of sense, don't you think?

*strokes beard thoughtfully*

So yeah, the full marines would be beefy as hell, probably have greatly reduced breast tissue (no they wouldn't be boobalicious, there'd just be a TINY lump on their armour to make space), and if they were young when the process started, they'd also have a very masculine physique.

How old do they start the implantation?

And what's the Lexicanum (or whatever)?

At any rate, I think it could be worked into fluff that a particular chapter has suffered a plague or a loss of a recruiting world or something, and are desperate for new recruits, so they tried out women, because they weren't finding enough suitable Male subjects.


Also, on an unrelated note, what do Space Marines do with their hair?
It was my understanding that they shaved it all off, but the Scout models have short hair.


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## White Knight (Apr 17, 2009)

The lexicanum is a 40k wiki and is also a person in a space marine chapter that records the chapters history. And they have to be between the age of 10-16 as they're bodies are changing due to puberty and therefore will be more likely to except the new organs.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Aah ok.
So, any Female Marines would end up heavily built, and be almost indistinguishable.
But Female Scouts would have obvious differences.
Hmm, I like this, I like this indeed.

But what about hair?
Does it vary from chapter to chapter? (obviously ignoring Space Wolves )
Sergeants usually have bare heads, is that because they're old?


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

To my understanding almost all full marines have to keep their head shaved or at least the monastic ones any way.


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## White Knight (Apr 17, 2009)

I guess the veteran sergeant models have no hair as GW only wants to put hair on metal models and models of high ranking sapce marines. IN 40k canon I guess codex chapters have thier sergeants shave their head kind of like army boot camps today.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Hmmm on a interesting side note they never did show Sanguinius with out his/her armor vary suspicious if you ask me hint hint.


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## White Knight (Apr 17, 2009)

Wel he had wings. I think taking off his power amour would be a painfully long process but what you have said is a possibility.lol


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> On a interesting side note you could have female chaos space marines for reasons varying from oh say slaanesh to fabius bile.


Actually lies and deceit.

Fabius Bile doesn't turn dicks into *****(ever, especially not weeaboo ones), and slaanesh just adds to the decor.


Also, NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERDS!


In fantasy you usedtacould have female chosen bouncing around but that's entirely unrelated. Space marines have always been male for the reasons listed above. There might have been rare anomolies but generally it's out of the question.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Also, tradition is quite powerful. 

Sgt. Dedicated "Men Only for Space Marines. It's here on page 23 of the Codex Astartes" 

Cpl. Doubting "Well, Sir, can't we deviate just this once from the Codex? After all, My Girlfriend want's to be a Marine"

Sgt. Dedicated *Bolt Pistol shot* "So sad to lose such a promising corporal. Clearly he fell to Chaos."


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Firstly, if there could be female SM, they could have offspring who would have all that extra stuff in them from day one, which in time would make the lesser humans unnecessary and a disappearing species. And that is not something those maggots want to happen.

Secondly, its the model issue as it was mentioned before: its bothersome to make both male and female figures. Not even in IG, where it is possible for women to get a gun and fight for the Imperium.

Thirdly, because it would prove to every men sensitive to their "unattainable masculine values" that you don't need balls to have guts. Hell, there were lots of occasions when I saw a girl being more of a man than most of the guys around. Just think of Margareth Thatcher; she was said to be the only man in the Parliment.  (for the sake of complete truth, I also saw men being better ladies (in this case, more sensitive, polite, caring, understanding, cooks better (lol) etc) than lots of girls around)

Lastly, because if you would add women to the most badass force of the Empire, there wouldn't be a grimdark world that you could call grimdark. Because in the grimdark future of humanity, there is only grimness. And darkness.

On an even less serious note, perhaps GW didn't want to see female SM blowdolls on the market. :laugh:


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## MJayC50 (Oct 30, 2007)

I remember reading in some early edition fluff (like early i think i was about 10 at the time) that the geneseed basically uses the defunct junk chromosome no.23 ie the Y chromosome. seeing as its basically genetic muck it can be easily usurped and overriden with no major defects on the rest of the genome. so genetically space marines would be men (as it not real you geeks!) because we have more room genetically...


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Khorothis said:


> Firstly, if there could be female SM, they could have offspring who would have all that extra stuff in them from day one, which in time would make the lesser humans unnecessary and a disappearing species. And that is not something those maggots want to happen.


Well, that's pretty much false.
Even if Space Marines were fully fertile (unlikely), the constant hormone therapy the Females would need to keep their implants functioning properly would probably prevent pregnancy from working very well, and all the muscles and chemicals and all that stuff would most likely kill the child.

And even if they managed to HAVE the child, it would probably be very deformed / abnormal, and wouldn't be a full marine because they'd still need the implants and hormone / chem therapy.
The best you'd get is a 100% chance of a suitable subject.



Khorothis said:


> Lastly, because if you would add women to the most badass force of the Empire, there wouldn't be a grimdark world that you could call grimdark. Because in the grimdark future of humanity, there is only grimness. And darkness.


Grimdark future is grimdark.
Lowle



Khorothis said:


> On an even less serious note, perhaps GW didn't want to see female SM blowdolls on the market. :laugh:


OH GOD, THINK OF THE PROFITS!



MJayC50 said:


> I remember reading in some early edition fluff (like early i think i was about 10 at the time) that the geneseed basically uses the defunct junk chromosome no.23 ie the Y chromosome. seeing as its basically genetic muck it can be easily usurped and overriden with no major defects on the rest of the genome. so genetically space marines would be men (as it not real you geeks!) because we have more room genetically...


That is curious, but could probably be overcome with a bit of sneaky chemical treatment to override whatever it is that relies upon it (whether making your body not notice it so it doesn't reject the implants, or actually providing that chromosome for what needs it).

And you could always just remove the reproductive organs to make more space.
As I mentioned earlier, if they did make Female Marines, it would be out of desperation, not choice.
Stupid sexist empire


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## steelwraith (May 12, 2009)

women cant be space marines cause they can't shout "BOOYAHHH , COME GET SOME" convincingly enough whilst firing a bolter at a mob of orcs


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## thomas2 (Nov 4, 2007)

Creon said:


> Also, tradition is quite powerful.
> 
> Sgt. Dedicated "Men Only for Space Marines. It's here on page 23 of the Codex Astartes"
> 
> ...


And of course installing women's loos and changing rooms in all the Space Craft and Fortress Monasteries would be a long and difficult process.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

thomas2 said:


> And of course installing women's loos and changing rooms in all the Space Craft and Fortress Monasteries would be a long and difficult process.


Wait, I don't get it.
Changing the rooms?
Why would you need to change them at all?

And also I think they would probably not have toilets specifically for men, I mean, what more efficient way is there than what we have now, really?

Unless they like, poo in their hands and use it for basketball, or something weird.
Bloody battle monks, and their chimp-like ways. :laugh:


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

Years ago, I heard from another frothing "female mareenz r and abominashun!" loonie that it was because all of the implants were keyed to work with the X chromo only.

Shame that females possess this one twice, eh?

Of course, he could've meant the 'y' chromo - which is essentially a 'broken' 'X' - but his general lack of edumacatin' didn't fill me with certainty.

They (GW) have said at various times that it is hormone related (guess what - females produce the exact same hormones as males - just like men produce female hormones - it's just that the balance is way off in both).

I don't exactly care. GW have rewritten their fluff on SM several times already. If it could make an extra buck, they'd more than likely retcon it in. 

I still use mindwiped criminals and psychopaths for my marines.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

chromedog said:


> I still use mindwiped criminals and psychopaths for my marines.


Ok, THAT is cool.
But wouldn't they be a bad shot? XD


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

They are retrained. Durr!

You don't just LEAVE them as blank slates after implanting gazillions of creds worth of biotech into them. You turn them into "ultimate fighting machines".


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

chromedog said:


> They are retrained. Durr!
> 
> You don't just LEAVE them as blank slates after implanting gazillions of creds worth of biotech into them. You turn them into "ultimate fighting machines".


<_<
SILENCE FOOL!

*edit*
Ooooooooooh, I get it.
You use only mindwiped criminals as subjects for the implantation project.
*facepalmme*
I thought you mean just getting hardcore tough guys, brainwashing them, and throwing them in combat


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## AntiPaladin (Jun 26, 2007)

From a scientific standpoint, there is no reason why women can't be marines. Both produce the exact same hormones, just in different amounts. Hell, all mammals begin life as female, then get a little hormonal change in the uterus. The only explanation left is simply tradition i.e. there's never been any, so we're not going to try now. 

So feel free to invent your own fluff and create a full army of warrior women - just keep in mind that, due to all the testosterone flowing in them, they won't be tall, lithe Nordic goddesses, they'll be stubbly, deep-voiced bodybuilders.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

AntiPaladin said:


> So feel free to invent your own fluff and create a full army of warrior women - just keep in mind that, due to tall the testosterone flowing in them, they won't be tall, lithe Nordic goddesses, they'll be stubbly, deep-voiced bodybuilders.


I wouldn't do ALL women, and yes, I realise that they wouldn't by any standards be hot.
They'd be like those super-strong women who also have a lot of body fat, and have had 5 children.
They'd be butch as hell, and bloody grateful for it.

The Scout ones would be fairly normal though, just like tanky women, because they wouldn't be fully developed (still 20-ish).

And I decided a little while back that if I ever do collect marines, I'd make all the regular scouts normal size, and make every other marine taller, because well, they're too small, and a full true-scale conversion would be too much work.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Concrete Hero said:


> I was always assumed it was because the Emperor was Male (bear with me). And because of this I assumed that it would be impossible to create Female Primarchs (if he used his own tissue and possibly Gametes to engineer the Primarchs, they would always come out male.)
> 
> And the Gene seed (Gene being the important word here) would be from a male body and perhaps only acceptable for a male recipient.
> 
> ...


she would no longer be female. This is a waste of time, as this topic has been discussed multiple times. Women cannot become space marines, lets move on. In the future, please read throught the topics to see if your question has been answered. When it comes to things like whether women can become space marines, whether or not space marines have sex, and similar topics, you can be sure that they have been discussed.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Wow, that was a little adamant and rude.
We're having an honest discussion, and have stumbled upon some very interesting theories, and you come along and try to shut it down.

Thank you very much Mr. party-pooper.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Winterous said:


> Wow, that was a little adamant and rude.
> We're having an honest discussion, and have stumbled upon some very interesting theories, and you come along and try to shut it down.
> 
> Thank you very much Mr. party-pooper.


We have seven. Seven threads on any given topic because people don't use the research button. It leads to stagnation and is actually a very large problem on most message boards.

On the privateer press one, you'll actually get warnings and the like for making identical threads lol. If you want interesting and provocative theories, keep it in the thread it needs to go.

I don't believe he has anything against the convo itself, just that we don't need five more threads regarding cocks or not.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Winterous said:


> Wow, that was a little adamant and rude.
> We're having an honest discussion, and have stumbled upon some very interesting theories, and you come along and try to shut it down.
> 
> Thank you very much Mr. party-pooper.


As waffles said, there are other threads discussing the *exact* same topic. Read them, post there, unless, like this thread, nothing new is discussed.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Son of mortarion said:


> As waffles said, there are other threads discussing the *exact* same topic. Read them, post there, unless, like this thread, nothing new is discussed.


Oh...
Didn't think of that, sorry :headbutt:

Well, while we're here.
Care to explain why you think there can't be Male Marines, Mortarion?


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

I think you mean Female, but it is basic vertebrate biology. Both genders start out as essentially female, and at a particular point in gestation hormones are released to force the correct anatomical features to express. Since the process of making a space marine relies on this feature of male biology, if you took a prepubescent female and put her through the process you would end up with a male for all intents and purposes. The external genitalia would change to match a males,( For examples,both the process for changing genders and steroid abuse have this result)her voice would deepen, body hair would sprout like a male, she would be infertile, and build a musculature that was male, and not female. In the end, regardless of whether or not a pre pubescent female couldsurvive the process, ( trials included) she would no longer be female except on a genetic level.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

You guys are a little too serious. I mean, honestly, who in their right mind would seriously believe that such a sexist, facist, zealous Imperium would allow the creation of female Space Marines, based purely on the sheer possibility of it?


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Son of mortarion said:


> I think you mean Female, but it is basic vertebrate biology. Both genders start out as essentially female, and at a particular point in gestation hormones are released to force the correct anatomical features to express. Since the process of making a space marine relies on this feature of male biology, if you took a prepubescent female and put her through the process you would end up with a male for all intents and purposes. The external genitalia would change to match a males,( For examples,both the process for changing genders and steroid abuse have this result)her voice would deepen, body hair would sprout like a male, she would be infertile, and build a musculature that was male, and not female. In the end, regardless of whether or not a pre pubescent female couldsurvive the process, ( trials included) she would no longer be female except on a genetic level.


I've taken all of that into consideration, and I realise that, beyond the level of a scout, there would be virtually no difference between them, except _perhaps_ personal preference of showing that they are in fact a woman, or were a woman, as the case may be.

But what do you mean the Genitalia would change?
It's not as though they would sprout a penis.
You mean the skin would like, sag a bit as though it were a scrotum?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

www.fightingtigersofveda.com This guy has excelant female marine conversion and fluff for why they are there. It is a good website.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> www.fightingtigersofveda.com This guy has excelant female marine conversion and fluff for why they are there. It is a good website.


I remember that, the commander chick is incredible.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> www.fightingtigersofveda.com This guy has excelant female marine conversion and fluff for why they are there. It is a good website.


He stuffed heads on normal bodies with minimal greenstuff work and his paints are too thick. The fluff is basically "I find this sexy"

And most of his sited defenses are to outdated fluff from second edition.

This is fanboyism at it's most dedicated though. Good show. Now, off to the real thread. All of you.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

LordWaffles said:


> He stuffed heads on normal bodies with minimal greenstuff work and his paints are too thick. The fluff is basically "I find this sexy"
> 
> And most of his sited defenses are to outdated fluff from second edition.
> 
> This is fanboyism at it's most dedicated though. Good show. Now, off to the real thread. All of you.


Ok I'll admit most of his stuff is terrible, and metal *shudder*
But THIS chick looks great!


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## VictorLazarus (Mar 5, 2009)

The imperium is slightly backward (bible esk days) as most people think the machines are magic and random stuff like that.

Gender roles are also kinda backwards, its like the guard - even though you see a few odd female guardsmen most women on imperial worlds are there to make more guardsmen. (as it says in the codex the birth rate is higher than the death rate - which is very high!)

The best they can really get to is a sister of battle; without gene seed.

Compare that to other races like eldar where women seem to be equal or in some cases greater than men.

MVL.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Oh yes I understand all that (actually I thought the M-F in IG was 1-1, as in half man half woman (OH GOD AN ABOMINATION!)).

But, the way I was thinking of excusing it was that the Space Marine chapter has had their recruiting worlds ravaged by plague or famine or something, and they've become a bit desperate for recruits.
So they started trying a few suitable women as well, and a few of them worked.


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