# An idea for how the forces of order (Tau, Imperium, Eldar) could stop the Tyranids.



## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Requirements

Emperor to be revived
Alliance between Imperium and Eldar
A captured 'nid that can reproduce

(Actually, this does not involve Tau. I made a mistake in the title.)

So first of all, the Tech Priests would have to decode the tyranid's gene matrix. They then modify it so that it will attack _other_ Tyranids and also produces similar tyranids that also atttack other "virus" 'nids. These 'nids would also have to have a system where they don't attack the other virus 'nids. This would delay the overall progression of the 'nid hive fleets (assuming that its a big armada as people fear) for a period of time. Not stop them, but it would take up time, and also force the 'nids to evolve anti tyranid weaponry, (time that could have been spent evolving against space marine weaponry.)

All the while, the newly revived Emperor and the Phoenix Lords would the strongest psykers they can find in both races. Then, they all launch a massive psychic attack on the hive mind's warp shadow. (Sort of like how botnets try to overrun a server) The sheer strength of the hive mind is unknown, so I figured that it would be safe if the Emperor did _not_ do it by itself. Either way, hopefully, the attack will be enough to overload the hive mind.

Comments?


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Platypus5 said:


> Requirements
> 
> Emperor to be revived
> Alliance between Imperium and Eldar
> ...


For one, I'm not sure genetically altering the tyranids is possible, especially if it's for the purpose of turning them against other tyranid. So as long as the tyranid are connected to the hive mind they'd be buddies with their fellow tyranids, and a tyranid that isn't connected to the hive mind would be feral and therefore completely usesless for humanity because: A) they'd readily attack humans, and B) their offensive, defensive, and strategic capabilites would be so crippled they'd be useless as a weapon against the hive mind tyranids.

On to the hive mind. It's difficult to say whether it's possible to attack the hive mind directly with psykers, and it likely wouldn't be possible through the shadow over the warp because of how much said shadow dulls warp powers. If attacking the hive mind with psykers was possible, then we have to take a look at the strength of the hive mind. Some fluff veterans around here have said that not even the chaos gods had the power to corrupt the hive mind. If this is true, then the Emperor wouldn't stand a chance at combating it, even if backed up by the phoenix lords.

If there ever was a definitive battle between the galactic factions and the tyranids, I think the outcome would either be determined by the chaos powers or the necron. It's safe to assume the chaos powers would unite to combat the tyranids in the same way they united to dispose of the Emperor, though how they'd make their presence felt I couldn't say. As for the necron, it all depends on whether the C'tan were willing to go back into hibernation


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Since GW is not about to kill the storyline that lays the golden eggs, we can just bet it'll be something gimmicky. 

Thousands of worlds are consumed by a main Tyranid invasion wave, nameless chapters of random Space Marines are tossed valiantly in to stop it and fail, another eldar Craftworld is devoured as a side dish...

And then someone somewhere develops a warp-virus or bio-resonance that sends entire fleets into the sun and let the other races get some breathing room and break the tide, so all of them still exist to be playable and purchasable!

Expect it to be grim, though. Thousands of ships and IG armies vanishing, planets crumbling like cookies under an SUV wheel...the galaxy will run red with the blood of much, much fluff! 

And none of that will actually impact gameplay.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Sounds like a good way to create a second hivemind.

Then have it come back and bite you in the butt. Plus, where would they get the resources to build sufficient numbers to stop the current Tyranid fleets?

Oh, yes, the very planets we don't want the Tyranids eating in the first place.


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## Sangus Bane (Jun 17, 2009)

my plan: the first + add some Tau firepower to it!

And this; what if the earth caste and Mechanicum combined their strenght to make a bomb that sucks everything into the warp (like a vortex grnade but bigger and with a more prodictable lifespan) Then fire that sh*t into the tyranid hives to suck them into the realm of chaos.

In doing so the Imperium is save another day as chaos and tyranids will entertain each other.


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## ClassyRaptor (Apr 7, 2010)

Each stage of Tyranid evolution is different, there for the genes will be different, unless the tech preists can alter every stage of of the 'good' nids evolution then it would be useless, they would just server the 'bad' hive mind. And I like to think that thousands of years before the Emperor, the Tyranids had already come through the Galaxy, Leaving the Eldar to rebuild. Like in the novel Fulgrim, the Eldar were rebuilding a few Worlds and Fulgrim stumbled across them. That would account for most Deaht worlds species of strange Alien Fauna. Like the Kraken of Fenris is just a very old Tyranid.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Not a chance. Finding a bio weapon that works against tyranids is impossible. They never succumb to the same tricks twice, as evident in Warriors of Ultramar. If these new tyranids were sent to combat the hive mind`s forces, their own overmind`s strength would be feeble and easy for the first to dominate. 
You`d effectively give them more warriors without a fight!

I`ve heard of this before. Did you, by chance, aquire this idea from the game AVP Extinction? If so, poor comparison. Aliens and Nids are too different in this regard.


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## warsmith7752 (Sep 12, 2009)

if the eldar are wiped out the death god awakens and all the eldar come back from the grave including those that were killed during the fall so the entire ldar empire would come back and that would easily have a chance at taking out the nids. although im not sure about the dark eldar and what would happen to them


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

What makes you think all the Eldar would come back, supposedly their Death God would finally awaken upon the death of the last Eldar (though even they acknowledge that's a hope that won't come to pass for many thousands of years) but the Eldar themselves won't be resurrected.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

warsmith7752 said:


> if the eldar are wiped out the death god awakens and all the eldar come back from the grave including those that were killed during the fall so the entire ldar empire would come back and that would easily have a chance at taking out the nids. although im not sure about the dark eldar and what would happen to them


What the good baron said. The collected souls of the eldar will go toward bringing this new death god into existence, and it will use its incredible power to either defeat Slaanesh, or sever the link the dark god has over eldar souls. Either one is an extremely lofty goal. Reviving every dead eldar isn't part of that package.

Though it is interesting to speculate whether the eldar empire at the height of its power could defeat the tyranids. I suspect they could, though they'd be in an even sorrier state than the Imperium afterwards.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

To be honest if the Empreror comes back the Nids are screwed beyond all reason. 

Everybody seems to assume that the Imperium is going to meet the Tyranids head on. Why? If we learn anything about the Hive Mind it's that while it's got very clever biology it's dumb as all hell otherwise. It only uses the most rudimentary tactics and is willing to spend vast amounts of energy in order to take one world. 

When you have a mind as vast and powerful as the Emperors you can bet he would work out a way to but the boot into the Nids. Really you don't need to kill em all either. You just need to sever the link to the Hive mind of each swarm. Know who would be good at that? The Emperor and all these new Hyman Psykers that just emerged. 

I like the idea of the Vortex Bomb though.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

What is a vortex bomb? Is it what I suggested without knowing it?


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> To be honest if the Empreror comes back the Nids are screwed beyond all reason.


I don't see how. The full force of the tyranid swarm is far beyond any threat the Imperium faced at the height of its power. That includes Horus.



> Everybody seems to assume that the Imperium is going to meet the Tyranids head on. Why? If we learn anything about the Hive Mind it's that while it's got very clever biology it's dumb as all hell otherwise. It only uses the most rudimentary tactics and is willing to spend vast amounts of energy in order to take one world.


The hive mind is actually quite intelligent. It targets key locations to weaken and overcome enemies, plans ambushes, and makes informed decisions. If it was a simple matter of outsmarting the tyranids the astartes or the eldar would have done so by now. And why is a willingness to spend vast amounts of energy in order to take one world an act of stupidity? A single planet can increase a tyranid fleet exponentially, and taking a planet's biomass is the entire purpose of the tyranid invasion. That's like saying the inquisition is stupid for spending vast amounts of energy to hunt down heretics. It's their _job_. 



> When you have a mind as vast and powerful as the Emperors you can bet he would work out a way to but the boot into the Nids. Really you don't need to kill em all either. You just need to sever the link to the Hive mind of each swarm. Know who would be good at that? The Emperor and all these new Hyman Psykers that just emerged.


Again, you're underestimating the strength of the hive mind. There's no evidence that suggests the Emperor will be able to overcome it or sever its link with a swarm, even in tandemn with other psykers. The chaos gods may or may not be unable to do it, and if they can't, the Emperor certainly can't.


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

I'm not sure that the emperor couldn't do it. He is basically a god at this point, afterall he's holding the seams of reality together to prevent chaos from flooding into realspace which all 4 of the chaos gods want and doing it all by himself. Tactically a streamlined command structure within tau, astartes, and guard could stop any nid army cold. Hammerhead, thunderfire, and basilisk battery is going to kill most nids before they can even make out whats going on. 

If there was quiet in other parts of the universe the imperium could do it itself. Nids are bad yea, but nothing is going to stand in the way of hundreds of thousands of astartes. Add a couple trillion guardsmen and game over.


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

Yes, the tyranid force is formidable, but what people seem to forget is if GW were to end the 40k Universe, it would be most likely have something to do with Chaos. And since I don't see the universe ending any time soon, they'll probably do something to keep the armies in harmony so that they can keep selling their products.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Well, if you doubt my stratagy, what approach should the forces of order take on instead?


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

K3k3000 said:


> I don't see how. The full force of the tyranid swarm is far beyond any threat the Imperium faced at the height of its power. That includes Horus.


How do you know? We Haven't seen it yet. Those diagrams in the rulebook aren't actual representations of the Nid fleets more like the expanse of space they operate in. As far as we know there might be only one more fleet out there. Everything else is speculation. In fact I'm betting that the amount of energy needed to cross a pan-galactic gulf is so vast that there's no way the Tyranids can take the ENTIRE galaxy head on the way some folks seem to think they're capable of doing. 




K3k3000 said:


> The hive mind is actually quite intelligent. It targets key locations to weaken and overcome enemies, plans ambushes, and makes informed decisions. If it was a simple matter of outsmarting the tyranids the astartes or the eldar would have done so by now. And why is a willingness to spend vast amounts of energy in order to take one world an act of stupidity? A single planet can increase a tyranid fleet exponentially, and taking a planet's biomass is the entire purpose of the tyranid invasion. That's like saying the inquisition is stupid for spending vast amounts of energy to hunt down heretics. It's their _job_.


Actually you miss the point. The Tyranids have so far attacked very few lynchpin worlds and the amount of resources they expend in each attack often drains the hive fleet considerably. In fact so far they've expended so much energy and resources in each attack that to stop a Tyranid attack usually means the total destruction of the Hive Fleet. This coupled with the massive pan-galactic gulf they just crossed means that their best chance of victory is to sidle into the galaxy and eat it away gradually. Even this doesn't really work because the longer they're doing that it gives certain brainy buggers the chance to work out how to stop them or sever the link between the hive fleets and the hive mind. No matter how many fleets set out they can't increase exponentially in the void and will have had to streamline themselves in order to cross the gulf, this in turn reduces their chances of destroying an Entire Galaxy. 



K3k3000 said:


> Again, you're underestimating the strength of the hive mind. There's no evidence that suggests the Emperor will be able to overcome it or sever its link with a swarm, even in tandemn with other psykers. The chaos gods may or may not be unable to do it, and if they can't, the Emperor certainly can't.


Why not? So far the hive mind has been shown to be vast yes and powerful but it doesn't really have any drive beyond "Feeeeddd." And again you're assuming that the Emperor is going to take it on head on. We still don't know what the Emperor is fully capable of and thinking if the Chaos Gods can't then he can't is kinda daft. It's already been shown the the Gods can do things the Emperor can't and that the Emperor can do things the Gods can't do. 

Another factor you're forgetting in the Energy Vs Gain equation is that the Nids aren't just fighting the Imperium they have to deal with the Eldar, Tau, Chaos, Necrons and most importantly of all The Orks. They're invading and entire galaxy of bullets. Their style of Warfare is one of attrition and it's one that numbers dictate they can't win. No matter how many fleets set out they can't increase exponentially in the void and will have had to streamline themselves in order to cross the gulf.


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## ClassyRaptor (Apr 7, 2010)

Platypus5 said:


> What is a vortex bomb? Is it what I suggested without knowing it?



No you didn't say anything about it. It is a very rare and very dangerous weapon. When used it creates a Warp Hole, effectively a Black Hole. But it can move on its own, anything near it will be sucked in and die.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Platypus5 said:


> Well, if you doubt my stratagy, what approach should the forces of order take on instead?


There is no approach. That's kind of the point. There's a massive, looming threat on the edge of the galaxy so huge, so immense, and so powerful that there's not a damn thing the humans, eldar, or tau can do to stop them. We don't know when or where they'll strike, only that when they do they'll likely to take the galaxy with them. It's this sense of impending doom that embodies the crapsack galaxy that is the 40K world. It's not a grim, dystopic setting if the "good guys" win.



Coder59 said:


> How do you know? We Haven't seen it yet. Those diagrams in the rulebook aren't actual representations of the Nid fleets more like the expanse of space they operate in. As far as we know there might be only one more fleet out there. Everything else is speculation. In fact I'm betting that the amount of energy needed to cross a pan-galactic gulf is so vast that there's no way the Tyranids can take the ENTIRE galaxy head on the way some folks seem to think they're capable of doing.


It's all well and good to chalk things up to speculation, but assuming there's only one tyranid fleet left seems ignorant to me. It's hinted that the hive fleets we've seen are more or less scouts, with the main one being far, far bigger than anything the Imperium has thus far encountered. Given that this would make the 40K universe more hopless and desparate, I'd say you can accept it as the truth. Someone (think it might have been Malus) brought up a statistic not too long ago; that the Imperium would have to increase its effeciany four or five times in order to be able to fight the main tyranid fleet. If that's the case, the hive fleets we've thus far seen pale in comparison.




> Actually you miss the point. The Tyranids have so far attacked very few lynchpin worlds and the amount of resources they expend in each attack often drains the hive fleet considerably. In fact so far they've expended so much energy and resources in each attack that to stop a Tyranid attack usually means the total destruction of the Hive Fleet. This coupled with the massive pan-galactic gulf they just crossed means that their best chance of victory is to sidle into the galaxy and eat it away gradually. Even this doesn't really work because the longer they're doing that it gives certain brainy buggers the chance to work out how to stop them or sever the link between the hive fleets and the hive mind. No matter how many fleets set out they can't increase exponentially in the void and will have had to streamline themselves in order to cross the gulf, this in turn reduces their chances of destroying an Entire Galaxy.


Even when facing worlds with resistance, the amount of resources the tyranid gains from consuming each world tends to outweigh their losses. This is why they're such a dangerous enemy. They expanded resources, certainly, but so has the Imperium. During the last hive fleet invasion the Imperium sacrificed untold planets in order to starve the fleet. They ended up destroying so many worlds that using this tactic again is unfeasible. Think about that for a minute. The Imperium is often described as having countless planets in their grasp, yet they threw away so many that they can't afford to do so again during the next tyranid invasion. The last tyranid invasion has shown us that they can attack from pretty much anywhere, and since their numbers increase with every consumed planet and that they become stronger the more you throw at them, they'll eventually reach such numbers and biological perfection that nothing in the galaxy, save maybe the necron or chaos, will be able to stop them.



> Why not? So far the hive mind has been shown to be vast yes and powerful but it doesn't really have any drive beyond "Feeeeddd." And again you're assuming that the Emperor is going to take it on head on. We still don't know what the Emperor is fully capable of and thinking if the Chaos Gods can't then he can't is kinda daft. It's already been shown the the Gods can do things the Emperor can't and that the Emperor can do things the Gods can't do.


The hive mind's drive is to feed, assimilate, and evolve. This isn't a weakness on its part, as when the full force of the hive fleet arrives the sole drive of the Imperium will be to survive. The lone advantage the Emperor has over the chaos gods is his ability to directly interact with the material world. Unfortunately, the hive mind doesn't inhabit the material world, so your only hope of defeating the hive mind in the materium is to ... kill off every last tyranid. His psychic might doesn't come close to matching those of the chaos gods, so if they can't directly or indirectly best the hive mind (and they still might be able to, we can't say for sure yet), he can't. It's as simple as that.



> Another factor you're forgetting in the Energy Vs Gain equation is that the Nids aren't just fighting the Imperium they have to deal with the Eldar, Tau, Chaos, Necrons and most importantly of all The Orks. They're invading and entire galaxy of bullets. Their style of Warfare is one of attrition and it's one that numbers dictate they can't win. No matter how many fleets set out they can't increase exponentially in the void and will have had to streamline themselves in order to cross the gulf.


You're making a lot of assumptions, here. You're assuming that the galaxy hasn't suffered greatly every time the tyranids invaded, which isn't true. You're assuming that the tyranid's losses outweigh the losses the galaxy suffered, which likely isn't true. You're assuming that there's a definite and attainable weapon that can either stop the tyranid or sever their link to the hive mind, which may not be true. You're assuming that any one of these factions can put aside their other squabbles in order to amass their full strength against the tyranid, which isn't true. You're assuming the necron are certainly going to rise up to face the tyranid, which isn't necessarily true. Out of all the factions, the tyranid are tied with the necron and chaos as the most likely to win. Saying "numbers dictate they can't win" is genuinely false.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

K3k3000 said:


> It's not a grim, dystopic setting if the "good guys" win.


Well THERE'S our issue. We have fundamentally different views of 40k. The nice thing about 40k is that there is enough room for the people who like it as the distopia it is currently, and also for people like me who still want a "happy ending." GW plants tidbits for both sides.

So, yes, the issue is a paradigm conflict, but fortunately, our two ways of viewing it can co-exist.

The reason that I think that the forces of order have a pretty good chance at winning is the "heroism" factor. 40k, like many sci-fi/fantasy series, will often have a hero who, at some point, goes against all the odds and beats the crap out of a far stronger villian. That is how the Rebellion wins in Star Wars. That is how the Argent Crusade defeats the Lich King in WoW. Hell, similar things have happened in 40k. What do you call Sebastian Thor? What do you call the appearance of the Ethereals. Despite the grim setting of 40k, GW has shown itself to be willing to throw in the whole "heroism" factor every now and then


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Heroes are too rare to make a difference on their own. And that difference is not always what you want.

Uriel Ventris succeeded in stopping a tendril of Leviathan. Yay.
But he failed to prevent the Nightbringer from rising. Awww...

Yriel saved Iyanden from Kraken. Yay.
How much stronger would they have been if he never left? Awww...

Farsight brought many worlds under Tau control. Yay.
But now he`s gone rogue? Awww...

And the biggest ones of all...

The Emperor. Horus. Two of humanity`s best heroes. Yay.
Also humanity`s biggest failures. Awww...

This is not your fairy tale hero story crap. I think there`s a good reason the rulebook calls them "characters." Yes, they`re awesome. But they`re only human (or whatever). 

Comparing 40k to movies won`t work. The fluff gives as many defeat stories as it does victory stories.

Heroes, Villains, Faceless Cogs, It`s all the same. There is little cause for hope.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Heroes are too rare to make a difference on their own. And that difference is not always what you want.
> 
> Uriel Ventris succeeded in stopping a tendril of Leviathan. Yay.
> But he failed to prevent the Nightbringer from rising. Awww...
> ...


The point is, though, GW, like it or not, has not shown itself above throwing in magical miracles into its storylines. The Tau Empire exists for not one, but two of these: The Warp storm, & the appearance of the Ethereals.

Likewise, look at Ibram Guant. He leads his flak-jacketed imperial guardsman to extreme victory against....everything. To top it off, he is closer to our definition of "compassion" than most characters. (Another trait of "heros.")

So yes, GW, while not as bad as, say, Blizzard, is not afraid to go to heroism fairy tale stuff.


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

I wouldn't say the Emperor is a failure, he's still keeping the Imperium together and preventing chaos from flooding the plane.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

The current situation is pretty clear that the imperium of man is failing and starting to fall. This means that someday every human like thing is going to die. 

Concerning the eldar death god, ynnead, his appearance is likely connected to the rhana dandra. This is supposed to be the last battle that features the phoenix lords and will result in the death of everything, including the universe. Basically all the squishy mortal stuff dies first with phoenix lord fuegan being last (since this is going to happen according to his profile) and then the eldar death god will emerge and kill the chaos gods and possibly the hive mind before dying or disappearing for good and then somehow the universe gets destroyed. 

So it seems as if the tyranids will not conquer the galaxy because everything will die at some point before they rule.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Maybe I just have a depressing view of everything...

The Rhana Dandra, is it actually said that it will be the end of the universe, or just the end of the eldar?


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

K3k3000 said:


> There is no approach. That's kind of the point. There's a massive, looming threat on the edge of the galaxy so huge, so immense, and so powerful that there's not a damn thing the humans, eldar, or tau can do to stop them. We don't know when or where they'll strike, only that when they do they'll likely to take the galaxy with them. It's this sense of impending doom that embodies the crapsack galaxy that is the 40K world. It's not a grim, dystopic setting if the "good guys" win.
> 
> 
> It's all well and good to chalk things up to speculation, but assuming there's only one tyranid fleet left seems ignorant to me. It's hinted that the hive fleets we've seen are more or less scouts, with the main one being far, far bigger than anything the Imperium has thus far encountered. Given that this would make the 40K universe more hopless and desparate, I'd say you can accept it as the truth. Someone (think it might have been Malus) brought up a statistic not too long ago; that the Imperium would have to increase its effeciany four or five times in order to be able to fight the main tyranid fleet. If that's the case, the hive fleets we've thus far seen pale in comparison.


See that's a completely different viewpoint to mine. Assuming the main Hive Fleet is on the way is fine. But I take the view that you can't have something that's going to invade an entire galaxy head in with an infinite number of fleets not even the Nids could manage that the Galaxy is too big and too heavily armed.
As for assuming that since it makes the universe more depressing it must be true, I think you're missing the point. It's not supposed to be about thinking "how depressing what's the point of fighting" think "That's a lot of gribbley wotsits. How do we kill all of those buggers." Dystopia does not preclude the insertion of the "Good Guys win" plot trope. 

Sure the Tyranids are dangerous but If you remember the catch phrase "If it bleeds we can kill it" the Tyranids aren't invincible and you can bet your ass there IS a weapon out there that can kill them it's just a matter of finding it.

As for that Statistic it doesn't really add up. It's based on zero concrete knowledge of the total Tyranid threat and just yelling "We need to scale everything up 500%" sounds like a panic attack to me. Remember 40k has a history of misinformation.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Numbers. If we could somehow know how many galaxies the nids have taken before ours, we would have a better idea of what we need to do to counter them. I am still convinced that only the necs can really hope to stop them.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Platypus5 said:


> Well THERE'S our issue. We have fundamentally different views of 40k. The nice thing about 40k is that there is enough room for the people who like it as the distopia it is currently, and also for people like me who still want a "happy ending." GW plants tidbits for both sides.
> 
> So, yes, the issue is a paradigm conflict, but fortunately, our two ways of viewing it can co-exist.
> 
> The reason that I think that the forces of order have a pretty good chance at winning is the "heroism" factor. 40k, like many sci-fi/fantasy series, will often have a hero who, at some point, goes against all the odds and beats the crap out of a far stronger villian. That is how the Rebellion wins in Star Wars. That is how the Argent Crusade defeats the Lich King in WoW. Hell, similar things have happened in 40k. What do you call Sebastian Thor? What do you call the appearance of the Ethereals. Despite the grim setting of 40k, GW has shown itself to be willing to throw in the whole "heroism" factor every now and then


The main issue though is that 40k is suppossed to be a 'grim-dark' setting, where the 'good guys' are on the brink of extinction making a desperate last stand. This is how GW envisioned the setting and for the most part how it is. They may throw some heroes in from time to time, win a few victories from time to time, but ultimately it all pales in comparison to the fact that the 'good guys' are all going to be butchered.

This was reinforced when 5th Edition was released, and with it the Time of Ending. Bringing new background material in which essentially seals the fate of the Imperium; The Great Awakening, Night of a Thousand Rebellions, Failing of the Golden Throne etc..



Lucio said:


> I wouldn't say the Emperor is a failure, he's still keeping the Imperium together and preventing chaos from flooding the plane.


I wouldn't call him a complete failure myself, after all as you said he is the one that is holding both the Imperium and the Galaxy together. But ultimately his plans and aspirations for humanity crumbled when he lost the Horus Heresy, and since then everything is doomed to a slow but vile death.



Stephen_Newman said:


> Concerning the eldar death god, ynnead, his appearance is likely connected to the rhana dandra. This is supposed to be the last battle that features the phoenix lords and will result in the death of everything, including the universe. Basically all the squishy mortal stuff dies first with phoenix lord fuegan being last (since this is going to happen according to his profile) and then the eldar death god will emerge and kill the chaos gods and possibly the hive mind before dying or disappearing for good and then somehow the universe gets destroyed.


Firstly its not even clear if the Rhana Dandra will even occur, And its noted as being the final battle against Chaos. One source claims it will be so cataclysmic that both the material and immaterial will perish.

As for Ynnead the Death God, claiming that he will destroy the Chaos Gods and possibly the Hive Mind is a massive assumption. A few Eldar seers who see Ynnead as a possibility, hope that he will be powerful enough to defeat Slaanesh - although that is impossible, so maybe he could sever the connection between the Dark Prince and the Eldar race essentially saving the Eldar, but oh, they'll all be dead if this Ynnead is to gain consciousness, oh well! And as for destroying all the Chaos Gods... not a chance, Ynnead will pale in comparison in power - being the collective consciousness of a few million Eldar souls is nothing compared to entities who have fed off of trillions of souls for uncounted billions of years and who are constantly being empowered by all the mortal races' and their actions.



Serpion5 said:


> Maybe I just have a depressing view of everything...


Yeah, but thats the point of 40k


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yeah, but thats the point of 40k


No, I meant _Everything..._


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

The chaos gods feed off the power of weak humans who are fragile and seek power. Meanwhile eldar souls are less prone to serving chaos and each one is capable of taking down better foes (as evidenced by guardians who are civilians). So it is quite possible for millions of brighter eldar souls will defeat trillions of lesser souls such as those picked up by slaanesh.


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## techwitch (Nov 6, 2009)

Alliance of Imperial and Eldar? use tyranids vs tyranids? Sounds like a Starcraft solution... and we know how well their zerg overmind capture project went...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> The chaos gods feed off the power of weak humans who are fragile and seek power. Meanwhile eldar souls are less prone to serving chaos and each one is capable of taking down better foes (as evidenced by guardians who are civilians). So it is quite possible for millions of brighter eldar souls will defeat trillions of lesser souls such as those picked up by slaanesh.


The Chaos Gods feed off the vast majoirty of mortals, not just humans. And all the souls of their followers certainly go to their respective patron god upon death. And yes, its well known that an Eldar's soul is 'worth' many times more than a human's, but remember that Slaanesh alone consumed trillions upon trillions of Eldar souls during the Fall, and continues to consume Eldar souls if they are not protected now (mainly Dark Eldar) upon death, so that alone is evidence to suggest that Slaanesh is many times more powerful than Ynnead could ever be, and thats without mentioning Nurlge, Khorne or Tzeentch.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> As for Ynnead the Death God, claiming that he will destroy the Chaos Gods and possibly the Hive Mind is a massive assumption. A few Eldar seers who see Ynnead as a possibility, hope that he will be powerful enough to defeat Slaanesh - although that is impossible, so maybe he could sever the connection between the Dark Prince and the Eldar race essentially saving the Eldar, but oh, they'll all be dead if this Ynnead is to gain consciousness, oh well! And as for destroying all the Chaos Gods... not a chance, Ynnead will pale in comparison in power - being the collective consciousness of a few million Eldar souls is nothing compared to entities who have fed off of trillions of souls for uncounted billions of years and who are constantly being empowered by all the mortal races' and their actions.


I personally don't believe Ynnead will be able to off Slaanesh, either, but I'm open to the possibility. For one thing, it's impossible to say just how many eldar are left, and every new generation they can go without becoming extinct gives Ynnead strength. And if you were to look at Ynnead as the manifested death of the eldar, a species that once held the greatest and most powerful empire the galaxy has ever seen, bar none, instead of the collective consciousness of the non-devoured eldar souls, it seems more likely that he'd have the strength to truly challenge Slaanesh.



Coder59 said:


> See that's a completely different viewpoint to mine. Assuming the main Hive Fleet is on the way is fine. But I take the view that you can't have something that's going to invade an entire galaxy head in with an infinite number of fleets not even the Nids could manage that the Galaxy is too big and too heavily armed.


The galaxy is big and heavily armed, but it's also segmented and divided even within its own factions. The Imperium, while more united than, say, 21st century Earth, still has factions that seem intent on screwing other factions over, which is to say nothing of the multiple consecutive wars they're havig with all the other factions, most of which are equally if not more divided. If all the factions of the galaxy were to unite, then sure, the nids wouldn't stand a chance. But when everyone's fighting eachother already, a force of trillions upon trillions of deadly, biological weapons that can replenish their numbers at impossible rates and constantly evolve to face a stagnent enemy can easily swoop in and take the galaxy by storm.



> As for assuming that since it makes the universe more depressing it must be true, I think you're missing the point. It's not supposed to be about thinking "how depressing what's the point of fighting" think "That's a lot of gribbley wotsits. How do we kill all of those buggers." Dystopia does not preclude the insertion of the "Good Guys win" plot trope. [/Quote
> CotE summed up my feelings on this one nicely.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

Stephen_Newman said:


> The chaos gods feed off the power of weak humans who are fragile and seek power. Meanwhile eldar souls are less prone to serving chaos and each one is capable of taking down better foes (as evidenced by guardians who are civilians). So it is quite possible for millions of brighter eldar souls will defeat trillions of lesser souls such as those picked up by slaanesh.


Aren't those trillion lesser souls Eldar Souls picked up during the fall of the Eldar?

I was just thinking. If GW were to end the 40k universe(perhaps GW is bankrupt and going out of business?), I think they would have one last massive tournament and that would be the official outcome, depending on which races 'Win'.


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The main issue though is that 40k is suppossed to be a 'grim-dark' setting, where the 'good guys' are on the brink of extinction making a desperate last stand. This is how GW envisioned the setting and for the most part how it is. They may throw some heroes in from time to time, win a few victories from time to time, but ultimately it all pales in comparison to the fact that the 'good guys' are all going to be butchered.
> 
> This was reinforced when 5th Edition was released, and with it the Time of Ending. Bringing new background material in which essentially seals the fate of the Imperium; The Great Awakening, Night of a Thousand Rebellions, Failing of the Golden Throne etc..
> 
> ...


I would say that the appeal of 40k lies more with desperate heroism rather than depression, defiance against all the odds and heroic last stands. My point? Don't be a cheese eating surrender monkey.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

scolatae said:


> I would say that the appeal of 40k lies more with desperate heroism rather than depression, defiance against all the odds and heroic last stands. My point? Don't be a cheese eating surrender monkey.


Yes of course, but desperate heroism (we all love the image of the Emperor's Angels of Death triumphing against the odds to save Humanity - well most of us do!) doesn't mean a victory for the 'good guys'. My point wasn't to say that the Imperium is depressing (although it probably is!), infact the Inquisition/High Lords notoriously terminate anyone who suggests Mankind is on the brink of extinction (even though it is) - for example the Imperial scholar who first keyed the term 'The Time of Ending' ended up being executed for Heresy. But that doesn't change the facts.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

My solution: Use bug spray! Why do some really complicated gene manipulation that fails, just mass produce bug spray!


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## WarWolf88 (Apr 1, 2010)

That's a thought Doelago. Tough there is just two big flaws that i can think of:

1. You would be making an Exterminatus just trying to spray down ONE Carnifex

2. 'Nids would just manipulate their geenes so that the spray no longer work....and no, updating the spary won't work. In the end it would start melting the canisters....

And if you ask me, the Imperium is only going to ally themsleves with the Eldar IF the Emperor point his....erm....boney...finger bone...in that sort of a direction, and every damn Inquisitor and Ecclesiarchy priest is dragged infront of the Golden Throne to winess it. No less will do, with the, ah, 'faithful'. Lord on Terra, I hate fanatics.

Seriosly tough, the most obvious solution would be for someone to lure the Orks to be a meat shield for the rest of the galaxy. Plus, that would solve another problem in the galaxy with one stone.


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

That'd be easy. Just explain to every ork you see, "Whoa, der's a 'uge fight over in dis place. I noes we are da good fight, but if you don't fight these buggy boyz first, I promise we'z is never gonna fightz you again." The hit a couple on the head and that's a done deal. Easy right?

This could not work, because correct me if I'm wrong, aren't they fighting each other right now and just making each other stronger?


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The main issue though is that 40k is suppossed to be a 'grim-dark' setting, where the 'good guys' are on the brink of extinction making a desperate last stand. This is how GW envisioned the setting and for the most part how it is. They may throw some heroes in from time to time, win a few victories from time to time, but ultimately it all pales in comparison to the fact that the 'good guys' are all going to be butchered.
> 
> This was reinforced when 5th Edition was released, and with it the Time of Ending. Bringing new background material in which essentially seals the fate of the Imperium; The Great Awakening, Night of a Thousand Rebellions, Failing of the Golden Throne etc..


I look at it as the time of ending for the Imperium. Humanity will survive I think. And even the end of the Imperium's strength is very great. 
I just think throwing our hands up and going "Well that's it" is kind of boring as all hell. And it really annoys me when people lay down "The Tyranids/Necrons/Chaos will eat everything ha ha" as some sort of argument winning be all and end all statement. 
There are just as many clues that some new race is on the way that will tip the balance or that the Imperium will find something to fight back with. And I don't think it'll have anything to do with the nids. 

Tyranids are boring as all hell. And something Kickass this way comes.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Obviously, GW is not going to let its series die off. So thus, everything regarding this topic is and always will be speculation. 

For that reason, there is no one right answer. A happy ending is possible. A sadder ending is more possible, but nothing has been completely discredited yet. Or will be, probably.

Also, going back to the original point, yes, I admit that it is a bit of a gamble, but it is perhaps the best strategy for the Imperium to go to. Can you think of a better strategy the Imperium should try against the 'nids? After all, my strategy would be better than no strategy.


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> being the collective consciousness of a few million Eldar souls is nothing compared to entities who have fed off of trillions of souls for uncounted billions of years and who are constantly being empowered by all the mortal races' and their actions.


Not sure if you're referencing other chaos gods but according to the lexicanum says the current chaos gods (well khorne, nurgle, and tzeentch) were 'born' somewhere between 8000BC and 1400AD Terra years and don't fully awaken till 500. M2. Only a few thousand years of consuming souls.

Against the Nids in particular. Ally with both the Eldar and the Tau, convince the orks to attack the nids first and launch a combined arms assault from all 3 factions against the nids before they can defeat the orks and gain their genes (orknids are a terrifying idea imo) and keep combating them wherever they crop up. The Eldar prolly won't help much but I don't doubt Tau would help seeing as the 'Greater Good' means nothing to a bunch of hunry bugs.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Lucio said:


> Not sure if you're referencing other chaos gods but according to the lexicanum says the current chaos gods (well khorne, nurgle, and tzeentch) were 'born' somewhere between 8000BC and 1400AD Terra years and don't fully awaken till 500. M2. Only a few thousand years of consuming souls.


Ah Lexicanum, how I do both love and loath thee.

I checked out that article and it doesn't reference it's sources in regards to the origin times for Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch- really the site is occasionally useful if you remember to never believe anything it says without being able to find the source of it's claims, consider it a map to where you should find fluff info not the source.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think the two major forces that would threaten the invasion of the tyranids would be the Orks or Chaos. In Storm of Iron I thought it was interesting how the Warsmith was able to control a bioship by using his pyscher to control it and then implanting the obliterator virus. 

Otherwise... I guess it would be possible to start launching huge operations where they could plant virus' in those ships and destroy them.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Why don`t we nicely ask the necrons and c`tan to seal off the warp, stranding the hive mind from its warriors?

That wouldn`t have any negative side effects would it?


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

If you go to M2 it does source it when they've awakened fully however. Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned.

Ah, I see. I always hear that if its in lexicanum it must be true. Thanks for the redirection!


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yes of course, but desperate heroism (we all love the image of the Emperor's Angels of Death triumphing against the odds to save Humanity - well most of us do!) doesn't mean a victory for the 'good guys'. My point wasn't to say that the Imperium is depressing (although it probably is!), infact the Inquisition/High Lords notoriously terminate anyone who suggests Mankind is on the brink of extinction (even though it is) - for example the Imperial scholar who first keyed the term 'The Time of Ending' ended up being executed for Heresy. But that doesn't change the facts.


I never said that it meant victory for the good guys I just think that it's counterproductive to give-in


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lucio said:


> Not sure if you're referencing other chaos gods but according to the lexicanum says the current chaos gods (well khorne, nurgle, and tzeentch) were 'born' somewhere between 8000BC and 1400AD Terra years and don't fully awaken till 500. M2. Only a few thousand years of consuming souls.


Aye, that was the case in the older editions/background, but I am of the opinion that it has been replaced with a more logical background. The older background (Realm of Chaos I think it was) seemed to imply that because the Chaos Gods (Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch) gained consciousness during Mankind's Dark Ages, and that they did so largely because of Humanity.

But if you think about it this is ridiculous. Were supposed to believe that humanity spawned 3 Chaos Gods because of their 'Dark Ages' when the Eldar (who numbered in the trillions, ruled an empire which spanned the galaxy, and who individually are much more psychically attuned than humans) only spawned one in just under a million years.. yeah right. As well as the fact that even in the Chaos Astartes Codex it states that the formations of the Chaos Gods took billions of years... So I take the position that the Chaos Space Marine Codex is right, and the older backgrond wrong.

But regardless my point still stands, Ynnead would pale in comparison to the power of the Chaos Gods.



scolatae said:


> I never said that it meant victory for the good guys I just think that it's counterproductive to give-in


Well that goes without saying.


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

I see. Sorry, I'm a newer player still so I'm still getting my backrounds right. I wish GW wouldn't keep changing it, itd make life easier with less source confusion and with more squats.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

It's fine, no one's infallible and it's not 100% certain that Child and myself are correct.


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Aye, that was the case in the older editions/background, but I am of the opinion that it has been replaced with a more logical background. The older background (Realm of Chaos I think it was) seemed to imply that because the Chaos Gods (Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch) gained consciousness during Mankind's Dark Ages, and that they did so largely because of Humanity.
> 
> But if you think about it this is ridiculous. Were supposed to believe that humanity spawned 3 Chaos Gods because of their 'Dark Ages' when the Eldar (who numbered in the trillions, ruled an empire which spanned the galaxy, and who individually are much more psychically attuned than humans) only spawned one in just under a million years.. yeah right. As well as the fact that even in the Chaos Astartes Codex it states that the formations of the Chaos Gods took billions of years... So I take the position that the Chaos Space Marine Codex is right, and the older backgrond wrong.
> 
> ...


I would still debate the point that Ynnead wil not be powerful enough to defeat slanesh or sever its link to the eldar race. If you view Ynnead as the collective death of the Eldar race then it has been forming since the fall and every Eldar that died during the fall up to the present day so it will be just as if not more powerful than Slanesh. As it gains power from the death of all the craftworld eldar as well as those who lose their spirit stones.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> It's fine, no one's infallible and it's not 100% certain that Child and myself are correct.






scolatae said:


> I would still debate the point that Ynnead wil not be powerful enough to defeat slanesh or sever its link to the eldar race. If you view Ynnead as the collective death of the Eldar race then it has been forming since the fall and every Eldar that died during the fall up to the present day so it will be just as if not more powerful than Slanesh. As it gains power from the death of all the craftworld eldar as well as those who lose their spirit stones.


The Fall of the Eldar killed off the vast majority of the Eldar species in an instant, trillions upon trillions of Eldar's souls were consumed by Slaanesh and the consciousness of their gods were also consumed by Slaanesh. Its logical to assume that since its noted that hardly a bare fraction of Eldar survived the Fall that the Craftworld Eldar since the fall have only ever numbered in total in the billions, and thats being generous. Its also safe to assume that since the Fall, a few billion (maybe lower, in the millions) Eldar have died and their souls have been protected and maintained in the Infinity Circuits (taking into account the inevitibility that a fair few Craftworld/Exodite Eldar Souls as well as most of the Dark Eldar's (who have died) have been consumed by Slaanesh in the 10+ Millennia since the Fall).

With the small amount of information we have on the prophecy of Ynnead, we can logically assume that Ynnead will be powered by the souls of the Infinity Circuits (Possibly up to a few billion). Now if we compare this to Slaanesh, who alone consumed the majority of the Eldar Pantheon as well as trillions upon trillions of Eldar. And thats aside from that the fact that she also feeds off of the excessive acts and emotions of most other mortal races as well. As well as her billions of followers among humanity and other races who worship her and whose souls are also consumed by her upon their death. You do the math, its safe to assume that Slaanesh is more powerful than Ynnead could ever be.


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## nivik (Mar 16, 2010)

why not just nuke them? like send a couple thousand 100 mega ton nukes at them, and just blow a fucking hole in space. bye bye nids, or just send the nukes to the galaxy the nids cam from, blow the fuck out of the hivemind.


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## sartan2002 (Apr 15, 2010)

Honestly I think since because the hive fleet is supposidly "endless" I would think in order to stop or totally anniahlate something of that scale would require a great sacrifice. So if you think about it in order to destroy something like the Tyranid swarm one of the other races would probably need to sacrifice themselves. 

Now we just gota come up with which race???

Imperium will not just because they are the mighty Imperium.
Orks.... well lets just say they are too dumb to think of something like that.
Chaos.... they will just let someone else try unless they feel threatened enough.
necron... they will just go hibernated untill they are gone... (I'm new to the fluff stuff, why did they hibernated the first time again?)
Tau... they know they are no match in any capacity, so they will run and hide.
and that leaves Eldar..... I think they are the only ones that would be willing to sacrifice thier entire race to ensure that tyranid swarm will disapear for good.


any thoughts on that fluff line?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

nivik said:


> why not just nuke them? like send a couple thousand 100 mega ton nukes at them, and just blow a fucking hole in space. bye bye nids, or just send the nukes to the galaxy the nids cam from, blow the fuck out of the hivemind.


Because that many nukes wouldn't even put a dent in the 'Nids numbers, most of them would be intercepted by the host of drone ships surrounding each hive ship- your vastly overestimating how powerful nukes are.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

A couple thousand 100 megaton bombs would do the trick and would put one hell of a dent in the hive fleet. A 100 MT bomb is 2x the size of the largest bomb ever built by humanity and the amount of energy released by that bomb was 1.4% of the power output of the sun. It would be devastating and the destruction wrought by thousands of such bombs would be beyond imagination.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> A couple thousand 100 megaton bombs would do the trick and would put one hell of a dent in the hive fleet. A 100 MT bomb is 2x the size of the largest bomb ever built by humanity and the amount of energy released by that bomb was 1.4% of the power output of the sun. It would be devastating and the destruction wrought by thousands of such bombs would be beyond imagination.


On the ground, maybe. Bombs and nukes wouldn't work the same in space as they would on a planet.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

They wouldn’t have the shock wave...... that’s about it. It would still release the same amount of energy and would still do a huge amount of damage.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Nivik and Gen.Ahab, you`re both very hopeful...

As soon as the first one detonated, the Hivemind would adapt. It always does. Even if you successfully destroy one fleet with this tactic, the next one would be ready for it. Sadly, there is no magic solution to beating the nids, their adaptive nature renders every tactic obsolete with time. 

And honestly, do you think the imperium has been holding back? They have weapons that can demolish worlds for shits sake! I`m sure if it was as easy as "Nuke the bastards" then it would have been done a long time ago.

P.S. the Hive mind cannot be "killed" because it is not a corporeal form, it is a psionic entity linking to every tyranid`s mind consisting of billions upon billions of organisms.

Beat you to this one, CotE! :biggrin:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Did you evey see me write that I thought they had them? No. I merely pointed out that an attack with that number of high yield nukes would cause a large amount of damage to a hive fleet. I also never said that it would be entirely effective a second time. I was only commenting on it's destructive potential during one attack.


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## Cocakoala (Apr 27, 2009)

Yeah I want to further reinforce Serpion5's point that there is no big floating mind in another galaxy that you can physically (or mentally i think) destroy. It is the thoughts of trillions of organisms combined and all linked to one another and acting as a single entity. Therefore, with my limited biological understanding, I belive it is impossible to destroy the hivemind unless you completely kill every last tyranid in the universe (now some clever biologist chappy is going to prove me very wrong I bet). 

Also i'm just thinking. If the Rhana Dhandra (sp?) is to destroy the material and immaterial universe, including all the chaos gods and stuff, and Feugan is the last to die in it: A- who the hell is going to kill Feugan if hes the last one alive? B- If he is the last to die and him dying "completes" Ynnead (sp again?) then where will he/she/it be born into? As there wont be anything left after the Rhana Dhandra (sp?). 2 Eldar phrophecies contradicting themselves? 

(unless the R.D. isnt meant to destroy everything and just be the end of 'some' things, then they don't.)


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> They wouldn’t have the shock wave...... that’s about it. It would still release the same amount of energy and would still do a huge amount of damage.


I had this debate with people on a Starcraft 2 board once on why they don't just nuke Char (which actually is an effective strategy, not that the bastards would admit to it ). I know that the physics of a nuke work in such a way that they wouldn't need oxygen to expend heat, but I really think it's the force that does most of the damage. It's the difference between dropping a nuke and just detonating it. I personally don't know enough about nuke physics to give you a conclusive reason as to why a nuke wouldn't be an effective weapon in space, only that I was told by everyone and their brothers that it wouldn't be :-/.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Oh I totally agree it would have lost much of its effective potential limiting it to only a few small KMs but it would still be one hell of a hit in that range. What I am saying is that thousands would be effective. lol But then again you have to remember what tyranids do with threats; they swarm. IF you could put several of such bombs in a confined space and launch them into the fleet thousands of the organisms would swarm the floating mass. Detonate it and BOOM! Then you launch the rest.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Oh I totally agree it would lost much of its effective potential limiting it to only a few small KMs but it would still be one hell of a hit in that range. What I am saying is that thousands would be effective. lol But then again you have to remember what tyranids do with threats; they swarm. IF you could put several of such bombs in a confined space and launch them into the fleet thousands of the organisms would swarm the floating mass. Detonate it and BOOM! Then you launch the rest.


A very fair argument


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Did you evey see me write that I thought they had them? No. I merely pointed out that an attack with that number of high yield nukes would cause a large amount of damage to a hive fleet. I also never said that it would be entirely effective a second time. I was only commenting on it's destructive potential during one attack.


No, you were not that specific at all. Re-read your post. 

And I am not saying yes for sure, but I imagine nuclear based tech would still exist, whether it is still in weapons or not. Regardless, I`m sure the AdMech would be well aware of the potential, and if they aren`t using it, surely there is a good reason. _THAT_ is what _I_ was saying. :aggressive:


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> They wouldn’t have the shock wave...... that’s about it. It would still release the same amount of energy and would still do a huge amount of damage.


Actually their would be a shock wave just not a concussive one to get that sort of thing you need atmosphere or water or something to be pushed ahead of the blast like the bow wave of a boat. 
You would get a huge burst of heat and radiation that would devastate anything within a huge radius since it wouldn't be absorbed by anything it would just tear through everything. 
This strategy could actually work through if you got a big enough bomb. It worked very well at Tarsis Ultra the first time they tried it with a Plasma refinery, problem was they had to detonate that with a shot from a Strike Cruisers Bombardment Cannon. The Tyranids learned about that for the second strike and managed to block the shot and hurl the refinery back into the middle of the Imperial Fleet. 
However If the Imperial forces had time to rig say some asteroids with fairly large nukes or even just rig bombs in plasma refineries there is no reason why they couldn't fling them into the approaching Hive Fleet and set them off via remote, after all the Nids can't block com signals (that's Necrons.) In fact it would probably be better to use a larger number of smaller bombs rather than one huge one then you're at least guaranteed to do some damage that could be spread over a wide front. 
But this could really only work as an in system defense but if you did it enough I'm betting you could stop a helluva lot of nids making planet fall.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I can see the nids developing some kind of bioelectric field to disrupt comms. Once again, this tactic may work once or twice, but we`ll be hard pressed to stay on top of this game...

Now if we could convince them to play a friendlier game... 



May I suggest a new strategy? If the nids are afraid of necrons, why don`t we figure out a way to defeat the necrons instead? That way, we could wake them up ahead of the tyranid`s advance, then shut them down when it`s done. Would require a hell of a lot of foresight and a few backup regiments just in case, but still...


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## Tzarii (Apr 10, 2010)

You want to kill the nids? Easiest way is shooting like a few things of strange matter in their general direction. Though that would probably cause a cataclsym and kill everything except what was in the webway and warp. The best weapon against the nids would be antimatter. Scientifically impossible to adapt to unless the nids were made of anti matter which they were not. So there you go, have tau/eldar/imperium/orks make ELHC that could make anti matter bombs and your nid problem is defeated by science. I am sure the mechanus people would love that.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> I can see the nids developing some kind of bioelectric field to disrupt comms. Once again, this tactic may work once or twice, but we`ll be hard pressed to stay on top of this game...
> 
> Now if we could convince them to play a friendlier game...
> 
> ...


Again you're assuming the nids can do something they've never shown any ability to do yet. A couple of asteroids seeded with nukes could do a helluva lot of damage to a fleet.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Coder59 said:


> Again you're assuming the nids can do something they've never shown any ability to do yet. A couple of asteroids seeded with nukes could do a helluva lot of damage to a fleet.


And you`re assuming the nids can`t think outside the box. From what I`ve seen, there are instaces where they do exactly that. No ability? Doesn`t the trygon use bioelectricity as a weapon? (the answe is yes)

They`ve used asteroids to cover their mycetic spores.

They`ve directed Imperial weapons upon their users.

They`ve infiltrated and subverted dozens (maybe hundreds) of worlds.

They`ve developed bio constructs to counter every battlefield unit they`ve encountered.

They`ve done the same with tactics.


Now, if they learn that the Imperium, orks, tau or whatever use electronic comms, there is every chance they will find a way to counter it. IF of course they even consider it a threat.:laugh:


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## piotrasdabadman91 (Nov 7, 2009)

2 words: ATOMIC BOMB. or if you want to be fancy the antimatter bomb


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## piotrasdabadman91 (Nov 7, 2009)

Tzarii said:


> You want to kill the nids? Easiest way is shooting like a few things of strange matter in their general direction. Though that would probably cause a cataclsym and kill everything except what was in the webway and warp. The best weapon against the nids would be antimatter. Scientifically impossible to adapt to unless the nids were made of anti matter which they were not. So there you go, have tau/eldar/imperium/orks make ELHC that could make anti matter bombs and your nid problem is defeated by science. I am sure the mechanus people would love that.


hehe, i was thinking atomic or antimatter bomb too


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Of course, the antimatter bomb! Why didn`t I think of that? Oh, that`s right, the massive inefficiencies.

Antimatter is extremely difficult to make, cannot be stockpiled, and requires precious energy to utilise. It simply isn`t efficient enough.

I mean, even the necrons don`t use that tech. They found a way to utilise a similar effect with a completely different technology.

Gauss Weapons FTW! (except in 5th ed)


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## Tzarii (Apr 10, 2010)

Gauss weaponry is pretty cool and would work, but only the necrons have it so far. Antimatter is the only thing I can think of that wouldn't kill everything and be effective. I mean strange matter would work, but if used it would kill everything and then some. Seeing how high the tech is in 40k it could be more feasible but anything short of antimatter strikes/ the little doctor it would be insanely difficult unless they made a gauss bomb. I would say create really big temporary black holes but then there is the issue of white holes with nids popping out somewhere in the galaxy.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> And you`re assuming the nids can`t think outside the box. From what I`ve seen, there are instaces where they do exactly that. No ability? Doesn`t the trygon use bioelectricity as a weapon? (the answe is yes)
> 
> They`ve used asteroids to cover their mycetic spores.
> 
> ...


That of course is assuming you can use Bio-electricity to block a com signal. Pretty sure it doesn't work that way. Not to mention I don't remember the Nids ever being described as even understanding vocal communication.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

piotrasdabadman91 said:


> hehe, i was thinking atomic or antimatter bomb too


Antimatter weaponry would only be effective if you can find a natural source of it. It would take a tremendous amount of energy and resources just to make enough antimatter for a weapon that's as destructive as a modern day nuke.


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## warsmith7752 (Sep 12, 2009)

Anti-nid spray:biggrin: (they are bugs right?).


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## Tzarii (Apr 10, 2010)

> Antimatter weaponry would only be effective if you can find a natural source of it. It would take a tremendous amount of energy and resources just to make enough antimatter for a weapon that's as destructive as a modern day nuke.


Space is a big place there may be some. What concerns me the most is they can make force weapons, they can make battle cruisers and fleets but not antimatter? We can't even make a decent set of power armor but we're on the precipice of antimatter lol. I guess that is the problem with looking at a lot of the fluff purely with logic.


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

I think that we're closer to figuring out Dark Matter than utilizing Antimatter. How exactly would you use anti-matter? It comes into contact with anything material and it neutralizes it... then you have no more antimatter and no more whatever was trying to get it.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> No, you were not that specific at all. Re-read your post.


No, I am fully aware of what I said. I only made comments as to the destructive potential of such a strike upon a hive fleet. YOU made the assumption that I thought the imperium could mount such a strike when in fact I never wrote a word either confirming or denying the possibility of such a strike. Do not put words in my mouth.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Lucio said:


> I think that we're closer to figuring out Dark Matter than utilizing Antimatter. How exactly would you use anti-matter? It comes into contact with anything material and it neutralizes it... then you have no more antimatter and no more whatever was trying to get it.


Magnetized vacuum. No matter in the container and the antimatter is suspended by the field. At least I think that is how it works. 

As to making one...... there are more efficient ways of blowing each other up. lol


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## Tzarii (Apr 10, 2010)

There is other cool quantum stuff that could theoretically be done. Theoretically if you could figure out a way to control electricity it self that would work, but lets just say that who ever figured out who to do that would win. Another way that would work, but whatever using it would would die and it would have to be executed perfectly would require stolen tech from the necrons and every scientist and ad mech and tau tech and eldar tech guy to take do a line of coke and get silly to work out would be a strange matter conversion from a quark star offset by black holes. 

You would Ice nine the nids and everything near them and suck the now strange nids into a black hole and destroying what is left of the strange matter. However this would require a supernova near a quark star or something to that equivalent and somehow luring enough of the nids there to make a difference. However this would be soooo insane that I don't think anyone would do it. It would be science that would border on heresy lol. 

As for everyone's "OMG ANTIMATTER IS NIGH IMPOSSIBLE TO PRODUCE OR FIND!!!" Earth has some chilling nearby naturally in the van allen radiation belt and Jupiter is believed to have some around it. Then again the problem is storage and harvesting it then weaponizing it. So I still say of the most feasible way to defeat tyranids would be antimatter, it would also bolster the Imperium as a much better power source.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Is not the technology of wraithcannons and d-cannon similar to antimatter. I mean antimatter reacts with matter releasing a larger amount of energy than matter reacting with matter. This is why i believe the scientist guys want to utilise it to power stuff like space ships such as those in star treck (awesome film but completely unrelated to thread)

So in short create a HUGE d-cannon and aim to the galaxy the nids are coming from and then watch the little suckers fly into the warp where they can then fight a lot of daemons. Yay!! problem solved until they escape the warp!!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> Actually their would be a shock wave just not a concussive one to get that sort of thing you need atmosphere or water or something to be pushed ahead of the blast like the bow wave of a boat.


A shockwave is the concusive force. Not the expanding energy wave.

Oh and BTW all engagements with tyranids, or at least almost all, are in defense of imperial worlds. lol And i don’t expect the hive ship to actually engage the missiles, I expect them to devastate the lesser organisms thinning the fleet for the imperial guns.


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## nivik (Mar 16, 2010)

what if, we detonated a lot of nukes inside the warp, right on top of the nids, and then let the warp eat them, OR just flee and blow all the planets up behind u, starving them,

better yet, why not just take all the imperium, sent them at them, then kill the emperor, releasing the blood gods, and let them kill them, or better still, why not just stop making nids, then thell be DOOOOOOMED!


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Why yes... why didn`t I think of that, nivik?

:clapping:


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## Tzarii (Apr 10, 2010)

No we need nids, gives me opponents to fight lol. Besides I want a pet nid to take care of the camel spiders over here.

The problem with this is the fact that killing the nids would require lots and lots of energy and or effort and the forces of order (and honestly lets face it the imperium consider the eldar a force of random in the universe so if that tells you much about the force of order...) The problem is that the 40k universe has the same problem the real world faces, we don't play well with each other. So it would require the forces of order to get along. That really doesn't look like it could easily happen. So it requires one impossible feat of science, which could only be done by an even more impossible allliance.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

C'mon dude surely IF the blood angels can temporarily ally with necrons then I am sure that eldar could work alongside the imperium or tau.


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