# Choppas Or Shootas?



## Spot The Grot (Jul 15, 2008)

If i recall this has been discussed before but i'm not sure.

For orks this is quite a big decision as boyz are always bought by the bucket loads.

Which is better as shootas get a gun but choppa boyz get one extra attack. Now by my understanding the shootas must be better as a face full of bullets followed by an assault by the shootas will hurt more than a simple assault. Not only this but shootas can engage an enemy at any range unlike choppa boyz. Also they are better when it comes to claiming objectives as they can protect it by shooting unlike choppa boyz who just sit there and pray.

Orks aren't well known for their shooting abilities but by they have some pretty good missile troops.

At the moment ive just started orks and after looking at the GT results i'm gonna go BW massing (yes i disagreed with it at first so i'm officially a convert). So would 20 shootas be better or 20 sluggas?


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

It all depends on the size of the unit and what you;re going to do with it.

12 boy trukk mobz need choppas. They're small, fast units, ideal for assault.

20-30 boy walking mobz are going to be better served with Shootas. They're going to be slow, and their bulk makes them great units to hole up and defend a position. They should take advantage of the longer range of the shootas, and their sheer mass of numbers to get a few good shot sin before they can close with the enemy

In both cases, go for Big Shootas for support, and a PK nob (essential for assualt trukk mobz, and very nice to hide in a big footslogger mob)


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

My experience is that, perhaps surprisingly, sluggas are better defensively and shootas are better in attack.

It is no fun at all charging a big unit of sluggas. Anyone doing so will take serious losses even if they do win. Shootas who get charged by are often in quite a lot of trouble.

Also the shoota's range is interesting in that you can only really expect to fire it once if the enemy is coming at you, and sometimes never. It's difficult to advance shootas towards fast enemy units, some of which can leapfrog your entire range.

I really think that the most effective method is to have a mixture. Put sluggas on your front row running forward with shootas behind. If a nid or chaos player charges your sluggas and beats them up he's going to take some damage in the process, after which the shootas can unleash a ton of fire and/or charge in.

That's the deal for infantry. For BW-mounted armies things are quite different as the units are more independent. Shootas don't have to worry nearly so much about being charged, since they are in a tank. Units are therefore quite a lot more independent. That said, it probably still pays to have a mixture.

On heavy weps, I think it's logical to give missile launchers to sluggas. They run a lot and their own normal shooting is fairly pathetic, so you don't have such an issue over wanting synergy between weapons. On the other hand, any tool to kill an enemy transport has to be worth having and one of the main reasons sluggas wouldn't be running forward would be if the enemy was coming at them in vehicles. They can potentially pop a transport and then charge whoever falls out - though that isn't hugely likely to happen.

Big shootas for shoota boyz, clearly.


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## Spot The Grot (Jul 15, 2008)

Ok so a mix is best. I'll go with that theory. What ratio of shootas to choppas?


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I just don;t like all or nothing weapons on BS2 models. If your;e extremely lucky and get to fire your short ranged rokkit launcher 6 times in the game, you;re only going to hit twice with it.

Meanwhile, if you've got a big shoota you're getting three times the shots in the are, at least one is going to hit every time (mathematically speaking, at least). Since choppas and shootas both are going to be most effective against infantry, I feel it;ls best to bolster that rather than try to multitask with a weapon you can;t hit with anyway.

Rokkits, IMO are best reserved for either BS3, or TL applications, or massed like tankbustas.

You do bring up an interesting point about leapforgging the shoota's range. I like the idea of running a mix for big units though, it's something I'll have to try.

I still like all assault for trukkers though. Get them into the mix and get the charge ASAP


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## Toten (Dec 26, 2008)

SHoota boys in Battlewagons is awesome due to big movement, good defense, and the ability to jump out and assault (ok 3 attacks per model isnt much, but its alot after 2 shots through their head.
You might say that "well 1 shot in the head and 4 on charge is better" but imo, nope, shooting with shootas will bring down some, and you wont loose models first due to ork initiative (stupid low even though theyre the most CC loving race xD)


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## Spot The Grot (Jul 15, 2008)

Like Toten said one of the advantages from shootas is the fact that as they will kill more from shooting they will suffer less casualties when they charge.

At the moment i'm hoping to run 3 units of 20 in 1500 points. Should i go 2 shoota and one choppa boy units or 2 choppa boy units and 1 unit of shootas.


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## Weirdboyz (Apr 12, 2009)

I personally run two squads of Choppa boyz and one squad of Shoota boyz. I genereally keep the Shoota boyz behind the Slugga boy mobs, so they can pot-shot any infantry units not locked into an assault before going to support the Sluggas as needed. The buckets of bullets that a Shoota boy squad can unload on a pesky target is a great way to finish off whatever artillery or Lootas were pummeling prior to an assault.

You may want to look at getting one of your Slugga squads up to thirty for reasons I will discuss here. In a 1500pt game it should be too hard to scrape out 60 pts. What I do is run my squad of twenty slugga boyz a tad in front of my other (30 strong) mob. My Melee kitted Big Mek or warboss advances w/ the twenty strong mob. I find that they act as fire magnets. so what ends up happening is my opponent tries to shred the mob w/ two PK's advancing at it (20 strong mob), with mixed success. And I often wind up having a 30 strong steamroller perfectly intact when I reach the enemy line. It is my way of making sure I have a nice big mob at the line to make sure I can deal with a protracted combat (No retreat! losses can suck if you roll shitty). It works for me, though maybe my oppoenents are just not that smart. Can't say!


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## englanda (Dec 2, 2008)

Not to go too far off topic, but if you're in a tournament environment, rokkits in slugga boyz squads becomes almost mandatory. If you're not running 2 squads of lootas and you come up against mech eldar, you'll be sat sucking your thumb while they fly around scooping boyz off the table. Yes, they're bad, but when it comes down to it, having a bad choice that can save you is better than not taking a bad choice and losing because of it. Plus, the AP3 isn't bad against marines.

In my horde army right now I'm running 2x 30 shoota boyz with 3 big shootas each and 2x 30 slugga boyz. All 4 squads have nobs with power klaw. Bosspoles if I have the points. If I wasn't running 2 squads of lootas on top of that I'd take rokkits in the slugga squads.


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## Diablo1399 (Jan 13, 2009)

WS 4 vs BS 2

Surely it's obvious that choppa orks will have more success. If you need dakka, get Lootaz!


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## Spot The Grot (Jul 15, 2008)

Diablo1399 said:


> WS 4 vs BS 2
> 
> Surely it's obvious that choppa orks will have more success. If you need dakka, get Lootaz!


In no way is as simple as that. I do and so do other still use shootas for assaults. And ork is an ork so they are still good at CC with 2 attacks at basic and furious charge. The upperhand is when they are not it combat (obviously). They can camp on an objective and protect it with fire power also they are more effective at longer ranges unlike the choppa boy. Shoota boyz are a hybrid unit they are used because of their versatility and because its fun to yel dakka dakka dakka.

If i go 2 shoota units and 1 slugga unit would that be ok? Cause ive still got a unit of nobs in the army so that makes 2 CC units and 2 shooty.


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## Weirdboyz (Apr 12, 2009)

It would likely be fine. In the end it all boils down to preference.


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## Korrogoth (May 2, 2009)

try changin the _*sh*_ of shootas to an L

LOOTAZ!


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## Diablo1399 (Jan 13, 2009)

Spot The Grot said:


> In no way is as simple as that. I do and so do other still use shootas for assaults. And ork is an ork so they are still good at CC with 2 attacks at basic and furious charge. The upperhand is when they are not it combat (obviously). They can camp on an objective and protect it with fire power also they are more effective at longer ranges unlike the choppa boy. Shoota boyz are a hybrid unit they are used because of their versatility and because its fun to yel dakka dakka dakka.
> 
> If i go 2 shoota units and 1 slugga unit would that be ok? Cause ive still got a unit of nobs in the army so that makes 2 CC units and 2 shooty.


Have you ever seen a mob of shoota boyz hold an objective against, say, a tactical squad? The have low BS and low AS, and the marines will easily dislodge them. Orks should assault like crazy, then pick up the objectives when there's no one left to shoot at them. "WAAAGH" is better than "dakka dakka"!


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## englanda (Dec 2, 2008)

Diablo1399 said:


> Have you ever seen a mob of shoota boyz hold an objective against, say, a tactical squad? The have low BS and low AS, and the marines will easily dislodge them. Orks should assault like crazy, then pick up the objectives when there's no one left to shoot at them. "WAAAGH" is better than "dakka dakka"!


Wait.. are we playing the same game here? A tactical squad killing a boyz squad? Lets assume a regular layout: flamer, missile launcher, power sword.

Rapid fire: 7 bolters rapid firing, missile launcher fires his pistol, as does the sergeant. That's 16 shots, ~11 hits, 5.5 dead orks. Flamer also kills 2. So on a good day that's 8 dead orks.
Orks then get to shoot. 21 orks with shootas, nob with slugga. 43 shots, 14 hits, 7 wounds, 2 or 3 dead marines. They then get to charge. You go first, 6 regular marines, 6 attacks, 3 hits, 1.5 wounds, 1 dead ork. Sergeant goes, 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1 dead ork. 19 Orks go. 57 attacks, 28.5 hits, 14 wounds, 4 dead marines. You lose combat.
You've killed 10 orks (60pts). I've killed 7 marines (112pts)

Pistol Shots and charge: 9 pistols, 6 hits, 3 dead. Flamer kills 2. 5 dead orks. Charge! Marines get 18 regular attacks, 9 hit, 4.5 wounds, 4 or 5 dead. Sergeant gets 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1 kill. Total of 11 dead orks. Orks hit back. 18 Orks get 36 attacks, 18 hits, 9 wounds, 3 dead. Nob gets 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1 dead marine.
They lose 11 orks (66 points), you lose 4 marines (64 points).

How are either of these scenarios "easily" dislodging the shoota boyz?

And I know the math isn't exactly precise here, but in general if you have 10 marines going after a shoota squad, you'll lose.

Never underestimate a shoota squad. The usual layout is 53 shots, 9 big shoota shots. Even at BS2 that is seriously going to mess up someone's day. And don't forget about the 87 regular attacks and 4 power klaw attacks the squad has.

Shoota boyz are one of the most efficient, cost effective squads in the game. They can deal with almost anything.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Why not run both?

I run a squad of 30 boyz /w nob, pk, bp - slugga and choppa - I run these guys to an objective either in the middle of the table or on the enemies side. Their sheer volume of attacks makes them decent regardless of whether or not they assault or get assaulted. Additionally, at close range, they have pistols to soften up the enemy. 

I also run a squad of 30 boyz /w nob, pk, bp - shootas /w 3 big shootas - These guys usually sit on my side of the table, holding an objective and/or playing guard to my lootaz. Being able to put out roughly 60 shots can result in an impressive amount of wounds. However, be wary of shooting your enemy before you plan on charging - cause enough wounds and you may find yourself out of assault range. Additionally, you almost need to get the charge with shoota boyz, if not, 2 attacks at str 3 really isn't going to do that much.

On a side note, rokkits in the hands of boyz is a terrible terrible idea. The chance is so small that they will do anything that it isn't something that you can rely upon or even hope to work. Instead, use your lootaz or rokkits on killa kans/tankbustas to pop transports. If that fails, usually a powerklaw will loosen it up.


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## englanda (Dec 2, 2008)

Crimzzen said:


> Why not run both?
> 
> On a side note, rokkits in the hands of boyz is a terrible terrible idea. The chance is so small that they will do anything that it isn't something that you can rely upon or even hope to work. Instead, use your lootaz or rokkits on killa kans/tankbustas to pop transports. If that fails, usually a powerklaw will loosen it up.


Both are great, and a mix is even better.

And rokkits in boyz squads aren't a terrible idea. Look at the tournament ork lists. At least 50% have rokkits in their boyz squads. They do this because sometimes you just need some rokkit shots. Yes, they're bad, but if you're against an entirely mech army, your 1 or 2 squads of lootas isn't going to be enough, especially against a smart player. And lets be honest, lootas aren't hard to kill. I'll agree, for store play, rokkits are a bad idea. But when you're going into a tournament blind, you need as many backups as possible.

Personally, I don't run them. I'm just saying it isn't as stupid an idea as it looks.


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## Spot The Grot (Jul 15, 2008)

I think i will go mix , at first i will got 2/3 shoota to choppa but as my collection grows i will buy another units of choppa boyz and try out the 2/3 choppa to shoota.

As Englanda showed they're better in ways that aren't as simple as charge and kill. More shots before the assault means more marines dead from shooting so less marines fight back meaning even more ork attacks in CC. Also most people charge choppas as they don't want them getting the FC but most people wouldn't think twice about that sort of thing happening with a unit of shootas , orky cunnin.


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## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

I think Boyz are the nitty gritty in your face units for the Orks so thats what I will tend to use them for. There are other units you use that have larger guns to scare the opponent to want to shoot at them (lootas, Killa Kanz etc.) instead of the incoming treat then when its too late the mobs engage.

Chaosftw


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Demolisher cannons obviously..errr wait that was not one of the options. Then Chppas since orks should leave the shootin to those cowardly hummies. Unless their Lottaz those guys know what there doing... We hope.


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