# Who do you think has the greatest tactical mind?



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Each army has their go to guy for strategic planning and tactics. For instance the guard have Ursarkar Creed, the necrons have Imotekh, and the eldar have Eldrad Ulthran. 

So hypothetically, considering their past achievements and victories as well as their defeats, which of the options presented do you think would come out on top in terms of raw strategic acumen if systematically arrayed against the others? Assume a roughly equal military force at the beginning of each campaign.  

Ursarkar Creed
Abaddon the Despoiler
Marneus Calgar
Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz
Imotekh the Stormlord
The Swarmlord
Asdubrael Vect
Eldrad Ulthran
Commander Farsight
Ghazkull Thraka
Kairos Fateweaver

I realize there are others deserving of being on the list like Lady Malys and Nemesor Zandrekh, but I just wanted one from each generic force.


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

because I am totally bias, I am going to plum for Calgar, with Abaddon and Ghazgull Thraka fighting out for last place.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Added an extra guy and a poll.


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

to be honest, thats probably not fair to Ghazgull


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Eldrad is off to an early lead - since he's been around 10,000+ years...


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

@Serpion5

I cannot see / view the pol =(



[update]

I can now =)


While I wont take away the fact that Eldrad Ulthran is a great tactician, Calgar is what a 20th his age? and look at the accomplishments for imperium / humanity he has achieved in such short space of time.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Isn't Draigo the greatest at everything?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Isn't Draigo the greatest at everything?


Shh. Not in here. :no:


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## HOGGLORD (Jan 25, 2012)

Kairos Fateweaver isn't really fair. It's not tactical ability to know everything that could ever happen.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

That's the irony though - He knows everything that 'could' ever happen but doesn't know if it will. That's why he runs if he takes a wound - cos Tzeentch might be selling him out...


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Knowing all possible outcomes is potentially a weakness, especially since he doesn't know for sure which one as Gret said. 

No, Fateweaver is not at any particular advantage compared to most of the others.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Serpion5 said:


> Shh. Not in here. :no:


I actually mean that in all seriousness. Given that he wanders at will through the warp surely Draigo is privy to all of the knowledge, talents and plans of all of the others in the list?

Coteaz is great on his home ground but Draigo has a far better away game.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

There's a difference between Tactical and Strategic though, Eldrad Ulthran is Strategic whilst Marneus Calgar is tactical. 

Eldrad would not be the commander on the ground, that would be an Aurtach but he would make sure the battle you were fighting was winnable before committing to it.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Hmm, fair point. I was thinking on the terms of a theater commander as much as a battlefield commander. 

So I guess I'm asking for the best all rounder command wise. Reflecting on this, I've never really made the distinction before now. 




Magpie_Oz said:


> I actually mean that in all seriousness. Given that he wanders at will through the warp surely Draigo is privy to all of the knowledge, talents and plans of all of the others in the list?
> 
> Coteaz is great on his home ground but Draigo has a far better away game.


Fair point I guess. But moot as I didn't include him on the list.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Lord Solar Macharius. 

A normal human who conquered a thousand worlds in 7 years, an achievement unprecedented in Imperial history and an amount of worlds not claimed since the Great Crusade. 

How could it be any other?


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Rems said:


> Lord Solar Macharius.
> 
> A normal human who conquered a thousand worlds in 7 years, an achievement unprecedented in Imperial history and an amount of worlds not claimed since the Great Crusade.
> 
> How could it be any other?


He didn't make the list either it seems.


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## Insanity (Oct 25, 2011)

I assume we're not including Lion El'Johnson?

You know...the Primarch known for being a tactician / stratergist


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

His name wasn't down so he couldn't get in.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Looks like its just a comparison of the "B" team leaders.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Looks like its just a comparison of the "B" team leaders.


Eldrad ain't on no 'B' Team or have you forgotten Aramgeddon already.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

To be fair to Serp - If he included the primarchs, it would have turned into yet another primarch fluff off over who's been the best primarch so far in the heresy and therefore has the most votes... 


@Magpie
Besides... Draigo>Chuck Norris - think of it as he's 'transcended the list'...


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## TheGoblin (Jul 19, 2012)

Vect all the way! A mind thousands of years old, combined with sheer cunning, guile and talent for murderous deception who else could it be? If Vect wanted someone dead, he would find a way, even if it took a millennium. If he had to destroy an opposing army, he would make sure that they would've already been severely weakened, the commander would probably have been assassinated and they would probably be in the midst of rampaging orks.

He managed to bring all of Commorragh beneath his heel, a city full of liars, assassins and enemies round every corner. If he didn't have a superb tactical mind there was no way he could of done it, let alone keep control. All the others on this list, except for perhaps Eldrad, Imotekh and Kairos are like children to him.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> I actually mean that in all seriousness. Given that he wanders at will through the warp surely Draigo is privy to all of the knowledge, talents and plans of all of the others in the list?
> 
> Coteaz is great on his home ground but Draigo has a far better away game.


Why do you think the Warp works like this? Do you have any source for thinking being in the Warp allows you to read the minds of all mortals?


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Aramoro said:


> Why do you think the Warp works like this? Do you have any source for thinking being in the Warp allows you to read the minds of all mortals?


Mainly because time is non linear in the warp, so he can go forward to next week and see the outcome of a battle, make some notes, then come back to yesterday and know how things are going to go?




Gret79 said:


> @Magpie
> Besides... Draigo>Chuck Norris - think of it as he's 'transcended the list'...


Come on now! Better than Chuck? I don't think so, you'll be putting him above McGyver next.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Mainly because time is non linear in the warp, so he can go forward to next week and see the outcome of a battle, make some notes, then come back to yesterday and know how things are going to go?


Nope, that's not how the warp works. If you could do that the Karios the Fateweaver would have no purpose at all.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Aramoro said:


> Nope, that's not how the warp works. If you could do that the Karios the Fateweaver would have no purpose at all.


That's exactly how it works, the Fateweaver knows the outcome so he has those skills of precognition HOWEVER if something goes awry he panics and runs. Draigo is the same, yet not prone to panic.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Lord Solar Macharius, most certainly.

Oh, that you can take in an army? Without a shadow of a doubt, it's Vect, closely followed by Ursarkar E. Creed. Vect has kept on top of the Dark City for thousands of years, without really getting his hands dirty (in a city filled with filthy-handed murderers, that's quite an achievement) - usually he can get someone else to kill somebody rather than risk it himself. 

Creed is second place because he was given the position of Lord Castellan entirely on merit, something extremely rare in the Imperial Guard - you only have to look at the Draveres and the Lugos and the Deviers to realise that the Imperial Guard command structure is woefully lacking in many areas due to the prominence of commissions from wealthy, incompetent wannabe-commanders.

Midnight


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> That's exactly how it works, the Fateweaver knows the outcome so he has those skills of precognition HOWEVER if something goes awry he panics and runs. Draigo is the same, yet not prone to panic.


Kairos the Fateweaver only knows the outcomes because Tzeentch threw Lords of Change into The Well of Eternity over and over again until one survived. Knowing the future means instanity (Which is why Kairos is insane). Draigo does NOT have the powers of Kairos and Kairos is the only Warp Entity who can see the future. 

Farseers do something slightly different with the threads of time, predicting outcomes but not directly seeing the future like Kairos.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Given that greater deamons are portions of their patrons power, split off - Why did Tzeentch not just go himself? All he was technically doing was drip feeding himself to The Well of Eternity - kind've like - I don't need this toe, I'll throw it in. Or this finger. Or this thumb. Aha! my right hand understood...


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

It's nowhere stated in any fluff that the warp gives the ability to forsee the future, and nor does Draigo. 
However, certain individuals can use their warp derived powers to attempt to predict certain aspects of the future. Fateweaver is a special exception as he was thrown into the Well of Eternity and is now insane.
Draigo is a warrioir and a leader, not a trategic genius, let alone one able to foretell the future. He's lost - time merely flows at a different speed to reality.

On topic - I believe the Swarmlord wins. The others all base their success on ability and experience. The Swarmlord merely evolved and adapts top overcome such problems. Vect comes a close second, but would probably betray his own forces to ensure his personal survival.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Even Tzeentch was afraid of what might happen to him if he ventured into the Well. And that was actually a good idea, seeing as it drove his most powerful servant insane and aged him unnaturally (I mean, Daemons don't even age in the Warp, so having one do so is a frankly alarming prospect). It also split his face in half. Would you risk having _your_ face ripped into two bits?

I'm frankly surprised to see Calgar get more votes than the Swarmlord. The Tyranids codex does blatantly say that at Cold Steel Ridge, the Swarmlord managed to outwit and outmanouvre the Ultramarines, led by Calgar and reknowned for their tactical acumen.

Midnight


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Eldrad every time, never lost a battle he didnt want to loose


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Apart from the one where he died you mean.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Gret79 said:


> Given that greater deamons are portions of their patrons power, split off - Why did Tzeentch not just go himself? All he was technically doing was drip feeding himself to The Well of Eternity - kind've like - I don't need this toe, I'll throw it in. Or this finger. Or this thumb. Aha! my right hand understood...


He was scared that he would get erased from time like the Lord of Changes did, a reasonable concern. 

The Daemons being a portion of their Patrons power things is true but it seems they can't take it back once they grant it. Hence why Skarbrand still exists and why you can make pacts to become Soul Grinders. Once you make a pact it's made and not even the Gods can contravene it.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Aramoro said:


> He was scared that he would get erased from time like the Lord of Changes did, a reasonable concern.
> 
> The Daemons being a portion of their Patrons power things is true but it seems they can't take it back once they grant it. Hence why Skarbrand still exists and why you can make pacts to become Soul Grinders. Once you make a pact it's made and not even the Gods can contravene it.


Now I know that being erased from time was a possible consequence - send the minions!:good:

Who was the Lord Of Changes?


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Aramoro said:


> Kairos the Fateweaver only knows the outcomes because Tzeentch threw Lords of Change into The Well of Eternity over and over again until one survived. Knowing the future means instanity (Which is why Kairos is insane). Draigo does NOT have the powers of Kairos and Kairos is the only Warp Entity who can see the future.
> 
> Farseers do something slightly different with the threads of time, predicting outcomes but not directly seeing the future like Kairos.


I am meaning something a bit different. Draigo cannot see the future but he has the ability to transcend time because time in the warp is non linear. So he can be in a present that to another is a future and so take the knowledge of his present to the others present and thus know what events will come to pass.

But as he's not on the list perhaps discussion should focus on the others?


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Gret79 said:


> Now I know that being erased from time was a possible consequence - send the minions!:good:
> 
> Who was the Lord Of Changes?


I mean multiple Lords of Change, Tzeentch's Greater Daemons.




Magpie_Oz said:


> I am meaning something a bit different. Draigo cannot see the future but he has the ability to transcend time because time in the warp is non linear. So he can be in a present that to another is a future and so take the knowledge of his present to the others present and thus know what events will come to pass.
> 
> But as he's not on the list perhaps discussion should focus on the others?


He explicitly cannot do this, Draigo has almost no control over when and where he gets out of the warp. Draigo cannot see the future.

I can't think of any instance of someone going back in time in the Warp, forwards yes but back? If you could do this then why would Tzeentch need Kairos at all, he could just pop a Lord of Change out where he feels like.


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## Zetronus (May 9, 2012)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Mainly because time is non linear in the warp, so he can go forward to next week and see the outcome of a battle, make some notes, then come back to yesterday and know how things are going to go?
> 
> 
> Come on now! Better than Chuck? I don't think so, you'll be putting him above McGyver next.


better than McGyver - I shall not hear such HERESY!




MidnightSun said:


> .....
> I'm frankly surprised to see Calgar get more votes than the Swarmlord. The Tyranids codex does blatantly say that at Cold Steel Ridge, the Swarmlord managed to outwit and outmanouvre the Ultramarines, led by Calgar and reknowned for their tactical acumen.
> 
> Midnight


In the Tyranid codex you say? Mindless Hive Propaganda say I!


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## Carbonfibah (May 19, 2012)

Vect. Surviving 10,000+ years in a city filled with oversexed anime villians that can kill terminators with their hair, space-elf rapists killing undead robots with poisoned blades, space pirates rape/drug/kill/ anyone they meet is an impressive feat.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

The OP asked the following:



> "Each army has their go to guy for *strategic planning and tactics*.
> ...
> ... which of the options presented do you think would come out on top in terms of *raw strategic acumen* if systematically arrayed against the others? Assume a roughly equal military force at the beginning of each campaign."


So, right then and there, I'm not even taking into consideration characters with prophetic abilities, far-seeing, etc. That's not "raw strategic acumen", talent for tactics, etc. Bye-bye Eldrad, Fateweaver, and other like-minded individuals/creatures.

Before I go into the rest of the list, I want to qualify that I focused more on the "fluff text" than the rules related to command ability. The reason for this is that there is a power creep with subsequent editions of the game and even Codices within the same edition.

*Abaddon the Despoiler:* millennia (potentially) of combat experience, ranging from small unit tactics to some of the largest campaigns ever witnessed. Chaos Space Marines, daemons, sorcerers, human fodder, warships, fleets, ancient space fortresses, etc... Abaddon's used them all over the galaxy. Additionally, he is probably one of the single most deadly (quasi-)mortal creatures alive.

_Potential pitfalls?_ He is unable to ever wear a helmet due to gigantic pole-erected length of hair. All kidding aside, Abaddon is almost certainly a megalomaniac, and is probably unhinged. His style of command and tactics _typically_ rely more on overwhelming power than being "better" (read: smarter, more tactically sound) than his opponents.

*Marneus Calgar:* centuries of combat experience, ranging from small unit tactics to campaigns involving entire armies and fleets of Astartes and Imperial Guard regiments. As Chapter Master of the most ardent students of the Codex Astartes, he is the heir of the most comprehensive repository of battle tactics. Just as importantly, he is universally admired and beloved by those he leads - normal human and post-human Space Marine alike. Additionally, he is a devastating combatant both in ranged and melee combat.

*The Swarmlord:* Engineered to be a strategic node that retains its accumulated experience after each reincarnation, the Swarmlord is as old as its race and a horrifying combatant. But if it truly was destroyed by the Ultramarines First Company (if only temporarily), then does he really belong on this list? I ask this because he was destroyed while enjoying tremendous advantages and the OP referenced _equal_ forces.

*Commander Farsight:* At most, he has accumulated three centuries of experience. A gifted commander and tactician to be sure, but on the same level of the above three? I doesn't see the evidence for it.

*Torquemada Coteaz:* He is an Inquisitor first, and a spymaster rather than a commander at that. Would his information network necessarily translate to a conventional battle between two equal forces? I'm not sure that it would. Like Farsight, he is not exactly a monster in combat, either.

*Imotekh the Stormlord:* Games Workshop defines him as "... a grand strategist, perhaps the most accomplished the galaxy has ever known." Like Abaddon and Calgar, his grasp of warfare encompasses campaigns that can span entire star systems and sectors. His sum of experience, though, is probably even greater than that of Abaddon's. More importantly, though, his strategies confound his opponents utterly.

That having been said, as engagements get smaller their complexity is naturally reduced. Imotekh would thus perplex his foes only to a certain point. Additionally, Imotekh relies on brilliant strategy whose contingencies, feints, etc., are informed by logical actions and reactions. An enemy that is "illogical" enough will confound Imotekh as well...

Where his combat prowess is concerned, Imotekh might not have the _skill_ of Calgar or Abaddon... but he is nonetheless terrifying in battle.

*Asdubrael Vect:* Vect is a complicated choice. He is described as the most intelligent of the dark eldar, a superhuman intellect that has existed for longer than the Imperium itself. In addition, he is perhaps the most knowledgeable warrior alive. His skill with weapons transcends what all but a handful of warriors in all the galaxy can match. His innate understanding of the physiology of practically every living species only adds to his ability to kill at will.

That having been said, though, is Vect more warlord and general than he is politician? His defining achievements have been in arenas of manipulation, assassination, conspiracies, and subterfuges. That he is a master tactician is not up for debate, but I wonder if comparing his political acumen with his talent for the battlefield isn't kind of like comparing Alexander the Great's command ability with his talent for the sword.

Additionally, I wonder if Vect has experience waging campaigns of a colossal scale like Abaddon, Calgar, or Imotekh.

*Ursarkar Creed:* Creed is described as a masterful strategist, a natural leader, and as capable of commanding a platoon as he would an entire army. He has an innate grasp of tactics, and a natural genius when it comes to devising his own. He may be the most talented "normal human" commander alive. The question is, though, could he match wits, experience, and acumen with beings whose sum of experience is ten times his?

For instance, it is stated that some of the tactics Creed has devised haven't been seen in the Imperium for many generations. Calgar is said to only have a "flair" for strategy, so perhaps he would never have come up on his own with a tactic that Creed devised... but perhaps he has seen it done already, and thus is ready to counter it even if no mortal commander in two or three centuries is. 

Where personal combat is concerned, Creed is not even an afterthought compared to the rest mentioned here.

*Ghazkull Thraka:* I'm not going to get into him. Orks are defined by other strengths. It's not worth including a warlord who was bested by a mere Captain of the Adeptus Astartes in the august company above.

I was going to mention Macharius, but I'm assuming the OP wanted to focus on characters who were active (or at least very recently deceased in Eldrad's case) as of the current fluff. 

My pick? I'm going to go with a toss-up between Vect and Calgar. The two have an amazing amount of experience. The former has much more of it, but the latter has a greater range of it in terms of scale (I think). They don't possess glaring weaknesses (Abaddon's megalomania or Imotekh's arrogance and inability to deal with "illogical" approaches to warfare, for instance). They are both devastating combatants, so if the battle where to be smaller-scale and they were called upon to join the fray, neither would lack in ability (unlike Creed).

All else being equal, I might lean toward Calgar. I think Vect is more defined by his penchant for subterfuge, treachery, and politics... and I think a battlefield of two equal forces leaves much less room for those and much more room for pure combat experience. How much of his life has Vect dedicated to this? And how much of that has been spent against foes of equal power - as opposed to ambushes and raids against inferior forces?

Cheers,
P.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> I am meaning something a bit different. Draigo cannot see the future but he has the ability to transcend time because time in the warp is non linear. So he can be in a present that to another is a future and so take the knowledge of his present to the others present and thus know what events will come to pass.
> 
> But as he's not on the list perhaps discussion should focus on the others?





Magpie_Oz said:


> Mainly because time is non linear in the warp, so he can go forward to next week and see the outcome of a battle, make some notes, then come back to yesterday and know how things are going to go?


I think that is oversimplifying the concept of the warp a tad. Time, as a concept, is utterly meaningless in the warp. Therefore entities who exist solely within its boundaries transcend linear time. As far as I am aware that doesn't mean that warp entities can pick and choose chronological time-frames in the materium that they wish to interact with, and that is when this whole debate begins to spiral out of control:

What throws a spanner in the works is the immaterium's relationship with the materium. On some level, both realms (of which time governs one, but is totally absent from the other) are interconnected; so much so in fact that the rise of Chaos (which has now grown to such a colossal extent that is it now indivisible from the warp itself) seems to have been solely due to the materium's influence on the immaterium. Whilst the immaterium's influence has shaped (or helped shape) almost everything (certainly every species and civilisation) within the materium. But it is unclear just exactly how this relationship works, as we are told countless times, it is simply incomprehensible.

In regards to Fateweaver, he seems to be utterly unique in the sense that he actually _knows_ the future, or at least every infinite possible future. He even transcends Tzeentch himself in that regard, not something to be trivialised. Although, it is documented that Tzeentch still (or at least Kairos fears that he still) has the ability to manipulate and hide information from his vizir. Essentially, Fateweaver's knowledge can be compared to the techniques used by Eldar Farseers (and other seers), it is similar, although Fateweaver's is on a much grander (read: infinite) scale. Whilst the Farseers use their powers to glean the differing strands of the future relating to a particular event/individual/civilisation and attempt to manipulate things to bring about their most desired strand, Fateweaver takes that to a whole new level by knowing everything.



Gret79 said:


> Given that greater deamons are portions of their patrons power, split off - Why did Tzeentch not just go himself? All he was technically doing was drip feeding himself to The Well of Eternity - kind've like - I don't need this toe, I'll throw it in. Or this finger. Or this thumb. Aha! my right hand understood...


Despite technically being made up of the same warp energy, daemons do maintain a seperate consciousness to their patrons. Thus Tzeentch wasn't directly feeding himself into the Well of Eternity, and thus he couldn't directly suffer for it. 



Aramoro said:


> The Daemons being a portion of their Patrons power things is true but it seems they can't take it back once they grant it. Hence why Skarbrand still exists and why you can make pacts to become Soul Grinders. Once you make a pact it's made and not even the Gods can contravene it.


No, the gods can take their investment back, hence how they are able to maintain any semblance of loyalty from their minions. Skarbrand still exists because he serves Khorne much more as an exile than he ever did as the Blood God's champion.



Aramoro said:


> I can't think of any instance of someone going back in time in the Warp, forwards yes but back? If you could do this then why would Tzeentch need Kairos at all, he could just pop a Lord of Change out where he feels like.


Of the top of my head what about the individual from _The Voice_? Would that count as going back in time? Although I can't remember the specifics of that short so feel free to shoot me down. If appearing forward in time is possible due to the warp, then surely appearing in the past is also possible?

In regards to the poll, as Phoebus said, going by the nature of the question all individuals who rely solely on prophetic/psyker ability should be discredited. Going by the lore it probably has to be Vect.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

Would Argal Tal being transported back through time to the Emperor's laboratory count? They were able to effect physical changes on reality and it was possible for the Emperor to perceive them and destroy them. Granted this could be just a sneaky vision that never happened but other than Lorgar walking through time and space in Aurlian its the best example I can remember.


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