# Starting WHFB - could use some advice.



## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Hello everyone,

After playing WH40k exclusively I have decided that I would also like to collect a fantasy army. That being said, I need a wee bit of help in deciding which army I would like to go with. Currently, in 40k, I play Orks and Chaos Space Marines. I like horde, I like the idea of undead, and I really like CC.

The two armies I am looking at atm would be either Vampire Counts OR Lizardmen (based off of looks and what I've read on wikipedia). I like the idea of vampire counts because of the undead (would be fun to paint/model) as well I read that they can be horde but also can pack some stronger elite units. Additionally, no one plays them at my store. I like Lizardmen because of their poison shooting skirmisher unit as well as the stegosaurus. However, 2 players there play them. 

The one thing I am leaving out here is magic, which I have no idea about. How it works, what it does, who gets what spells - some hints here about the armies would be nice.

In any case, I would like opinions and your thoughts about ANY and ALL the armies.

Couple things about me and my playstyle.

I love CC.
I dislike pewter (although I'm pretty decent at finding/converting alternative models).
I would like an army with many choices.
The army needs to be competitive.


Thanks in advance!


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Lizardmen Have a lot more choices than undead, Both are Strong in magic, while VC will outnumber, Lizards fight better. Vamps have no shooting, while lizards do. They are both good for modelling. I think lizards are better for painting, while undead are pretty much just dead flesh and bone.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> Lizardmen Have a lot more choices than undead, Both are Strong in magic, while VC will outnumber, Lizards fight better. Vamps have no shooting, while lizards do. They are both good for modelling. I think lizards are better for painting, while undead are pretty much just dead flesh and bone.


so would you say that lizards are greater than VC?


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

You cant really say which is greater, I know in 40k there are certain armies considered better than other, and a few super builds, but in fantasy there are literally hundreds of builds all of which can be powerful. So ultimately its up to you, If you want combat ability with a medium sized army then I would say Lizards, But if you want a Huge horde and very powerful magic, then I'd recommend VC, but its all up to you.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

If it helps you any the top Three fantasy armys power wise are

1)Demons
2)Dark Elfs
3)Vampire Counts

if you like magic i would sday dark elfs....they have some of the most nasty spells in the game.


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

If you like CC, Horde and a lack of pewter then VC are for you.

VC have absolutely no shooting (ok, one unit can shoot... but its an expensive & completely useless upgrade...)

Obviously the idea of a horde of undead is the point (in fact, yours get back up... You can double the troops you begin with in one turn with lucky casting...)

Both lizardmen & VC have powerful magic phases as well...

There are really two downsides to VC - the first is that if you're going hordes of skeletons the painting is quite boring.... tones of bone & thats about it..

The second is that VC are such a powerful army (I've played 7 games of fantasy with my VC & have won all but my first two games...) that many people wont enjoy playing you - in fact, if you plan on going to tournaments be prepared to lose out on army comp, etc scores...


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Really, people don't like playing against VCs?

What makes them so powerful?

How do dark elves fair in combat?


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

lol vampire's arnt that hard to beat! 

Problem with them is if your general dies your whole army starts takeing damage at the start of every turn.


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## BloodAngelsfan (Jan 22, 2009)

Well, I play dwarfs, so not much experience with magic (although dwarfs do get a handy +2 dispel dice) as they have no wizards. in regards to CC i would say go VC as they have no ranged at all. another benefit to having a horde army is that unless they enemy has stone throwers you can pretty well defend your more powerful units with the swarms of zombies,ghouls and skellies. tip from a huge fan of war machines, watch out for cannons (alot of fun against goblins!)


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

Crimzzen said:


> Really, people don't like playing against VCs?
> 
> What makes them so powerful?


couple of reasons...

Firstly, most spells can only be cast one time per phase per caster - Necromacy can be cast over & over & over until you run out of dice, meaning you can cast invocation (replenishes units) over & over. Kind of part & parcel with that - you can have a lord with 6 power dice (lvl 4 mage + 2 dice) and/or heros with 3 dice each (lvl 1 mage +2) meaning that if you have full heroes + lord @ 2000 you can have 17 PD & 7 dispell dice... which is a lot...

Second, ALL undead units cause fear - if you lose combat & are outnumbered by a fear causing enemy, you automatically flee from combat unless you roll insane courage... & it is possible to have 6+ points of static combat resolution with skeletons going into each combat... (outnumber, 4 ranks <most armies can only count 3> plus unit banner) & can easily increase it further without getting any kills...

Also, vampires have a spell which allows them to move {charge} / strike first in combat meaning you can march skeletons 8" & then get an 8" charge in the magic phase

Of course as soon as your general dies it's game over...


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## Jester12 (Jun 18, 2009)

Crimzzen said:


> Really, people don't like playing against VCs?
> 
> What makes them so powerful?
> 
> How do dark elves fair in combat?


Dark elves have the ability to be very good in CC. They can have assassins in their units which don't take up a character choice and can dish out a lot of damage making even your spearmen deadly since assassins are 'hidden' till you choose to reveal them. Black Guard are very tough as well. They have 2 attacks each can have always strike first with halberds and are stubborn. Also, the cauldron of blood is great if you want close combat. It can give units buffs such as extra attack or killing blow so the charging unit of cold one knights can have twice the attacks or your unit of witch elves or corsairs (which can be frenzied) can have 3 attacks each with killing blow. Lets also not forget war hydras which for the points are one of the best units in the game. Plus, the magic's pretty awesome as well. Lastly, horde army thread and no one's mentioned my skaven. VC aren't even really that hordey.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

hmm, I like the sounds of hordes of undead but dark elves are sounding neat as well, hydras and such.

So why are you pooched if your VC lord dies? Does he control the undead in some way? Is it easy to lose a lord?


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## Jester12 (Jun 18, 2009)

When your general dies the rest of your army has to take ld tests every turn and lose however many models you roll over your ld test and at ld 3 you generally tend to lose 4-5 skeletons a unit per turn. Lords can have decent protection but you either have to protect the crap out of him, make him a good caster, or make him a beast in combat. You really can't go with more than one of those options very well. Plus with killing blow becoming increasingly more common you need to spend more points on keeping him alive than you used to decreasing his overall combat/casting ability.


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## Franko1111 (Jun 25, 2008)

man my main opponent is a vampire counts player and he is having bad times with his army. the problem is that at first people thought "shit he can raise more undead what can i do to stop him" but after a game or two people worked out that there no better than the normal army and no worst, he has a high win/loss percentige and is happy with the way it works and is a heap of fun to play against. the problem is that crappy people hear there good get them and milk the book for all its worth giving people the idea that the books plain powerful.

I say that you should do lizardmen 2 attacks and spears? put them 6 wide and youv'e got a nasty unit pumping out 24 attacks.:victory:


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Crimzzen said:


> hmm, I like the sounds of hordes of undead but dark elves are sounding neat as well, hydras and such.
> 
> So why are you pooched if your VC lord dies? Does he control the undead in some way? Is it easy to lose a lord?


it really depends on how you play.

Vampire's will cost alot more cash then lizards of dark elfs. Due to the fact you should own at least 150 skeletons.100 - 200 zombies and about 60 ghouls so you never run out of things to raise.

Lizards are pretty cool, and cheaper then both dark elfs or Vampires to build but from what i have seen they Go down pretty fast :cray:


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Or if you want a mostly plastic army that is good looking, tough as nails without being overpowered, and extremely fun to play, go with Warriors of Chaos. With the right list and decent playing skills they can be a force to be reckoned with.


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## Audun54 (Jul 24, 2009)

The Wraithlord said:


> Or if you want a mostly plastic army that is good looking, tough as nails without being overpowered, and extremely fun to play, go with Warriors of Chaos. With the right list and decent playing skills they can be a force to be reckoned with.


and if you want it to be horde, just get alot of marauders and voila you got yourself a horde


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## CoNnZ (Mar 28, 2009)

The Wraithlord said:


> Or if you want a mostly plastic army that is good looking, tough as nails without being overpowered, and extremely fun to play, go with Warriors of Chaos. With the right list and decent playing skills they can be a force to be reckoned with.


Very true but sadly WoC arent very competetive. 
It depends on what you like in CC, VC do have lots of combat units but they will be slapped silly by goblins. Dark elves, we have lots of good combat units like hydras, black guard and executioners, are competitve but we do have to run around alot before we find our mark


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Hmmm - Could you give me an idea of what would be some units I need to have for:

VC's
Dark Elves
Lizardmen

I'll then look them up and see what they look like (model wise) as I like interesting models (more fun to paint). 

Thanks to everyone as well, you've all been a super amount of help - I finished reading the WHFB Rulebook yesterday so I might pick up a few of the codex's and give them a read as well.


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## BloodAngelsfan (Jan 22, 2009)

for Dark Elves there are the Black Guard.
Lizardmen i would say the stegadon
and VC I would say the Blood Knights


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## Jester12 (Jun 18, 2009)

Blood knights? The unit of 5 that comes in the $90 dollar box set is like 500 points. In under 3k blood knights are rarely worth it. None of those are really needs either. You 'need' a general and core units.
Needs for low level games under 2k
Dark Elves:Spearmen/Corsairs Character must: Sorceress
Lizardmen:Saurus Warriors/Skinks Character Must: Hero on stegadon (either chief with war spear or lvl 2 on Engine
Vampire Counts:Skeletons/Skeletons Character Must: Vampire of course


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

hmmm, thanks for the replies, I'll take a boo


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## BloodAngelsfan (Jan 22, 2009)

I was thinking more along the lines of units that would be fun to paint. I know blood knights aren't 'must haves' neither are the Black Guard.


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## Jester12 (Jun 18, 2009)

Ah ok. That makes more sense. Yeah they're definately fun to paint. Personally I like painting corsairs or shades for dark elves though over black guard. But yeah just about all of my musts are boring to paint for the most part especially skeletons. I'm still slowly painting my unit of tomb kings trying to trudge through them so I can get another unit of something fun.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

You know what, painting zombies might be fun - the first 50 or so, but still fun.... I'm use to powering through troops, I play orks.


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## BloodAngelsfan (Jan 22, 2009)

Well, I'm glad we could help you decide upon an army.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Thanks, I'll try VC for now - although I still really like the look of lizardmen and the availability of plastic for Dark Elves - so who knows in the future right?

Now I need to build a list


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Crimzzen said:


> Thanks, I'll try VC for now - although I still really like the look of lizardmen and the availability of plastic for Dark Elves - so who knows in the future right?
> 
> Now I need to build a list


Vc are fun just be sure to hide the lord well, and trust me after 50 zombies you will want to burn the whole army.....If you can resist the erg your good to go:laugh:


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## Jester12 (Jun 18, 2009)

Hey, it could be worse. You could play skaven like me. And you could be as picky as me too stripping the paint off all 300 models I have to repaint them because they were painted to below average standard. Paint them well to begin with is my suggestion because if you like them enough to want to do tournaments with them you won't have to do what I'm doing.:victory:


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Jester12 said:


> Hey, it could be worse. You could play skaven like me. And you could be as picky as me too stripping the paint off all 300 models I have to repaint them because they were painted to below average standard. Paint them well to begin with is my suggestion because if you like them enough to want to do tournaments with them you won't have to do what I'm doing.:victory:


heheeheh Rats of doom!


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Heh, I'm pretty decent at painting - unfortunately I spend hours on single models, even something as simple as an ork boy. 

Thanks for all the help! My VC army list is posted here:

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=43336


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