# Soul Grinders: yay or nay?



## spudboy (Jun 13, 2008)

I remember talk in the past about whether soul grinders are a viable choice given their enormous point size and relatively puny BS. Any changes of heart?

Given the new rules on blast and template markers, I'm tempted to say they have a new life in 5th ed., but perhaps the more experienced Chaos Daemon players would care to enlighten us?


----------



## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

I'm not a daemon player, nor familiar with their rules, however, imho any unit that can lay down a big nasty pie plate is always usefull to keep around. In case you need to soften up the enemy so you can reach him.


----------



## spudboy (Jun 13, 2008)

Inquisitor Einar said:


> I'm not a daemon player, nor familiar with their rules, however, imho any unit that can lay down a big nasty pie plate is always usefull to keep around. In case you need to soften up the enemy so you can reach him.


Useful, yes, but the crux of the debate was 'necessary'. Do you need them or no. With full upgrades, they push 200 pts a pop. Without, they're still triple digit.


----------



## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

All you really need is Phlegm. that's 160pts - I'd hardly call that a _massive point sink_, I'd call it an amazing bargain.

Why would you take tongue as well? Phlegm isn't really going to work on heavy tanks and when its 50% chance its going to miss...

Definitely a Yay on my part, maybe even yay times three.


----------



## Critta (Aug 6, 2008)

Bearing in mind that the cost CH just listed is only 10pts more than a minimum cost defiler, I'd say that's not half bad


----------



## Dallas_Drake (Jan 26, 2009)

Nay. 

For the simple reason that they're hard to keep out of LOS & a lucky Lascannon can end a Grinders day before it's even joined the fun, a Daemon Prince on the other hand would simply take a wound (if it failed its 5++ that is). 

Also, I think they're weak fluff & look crap. Nurgle Daemon Princes all the way.


----------



## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

From vs experience, Soul Grinders love eating infantry. You want to drop those plates, to kill what you can then try to run down the enemy with its hand to hand potential. AV 13 is tough enough to keep most high STR shot damage to a minimal.


----------



## spudboy (Jun 13, 2008)

Styro-J said:


> From vs experience, Soul Grinders love eating infantry. You want to drop those plates, to kill what you can then try to run down the enemy with its hand to hand potential. AV 13 is tough enough to keep most high STR shot damage to a minimal.


This is my impression, that they excel at killing troops but are not that wonderful versus anything heavy, like vehicles (that is, unless they get into CC... yikes. Would love to see one brawling with a Wraithlord.).

So the next question is this: why not a pack of, say, flamers? Smaller, probably more survivable, and their attacks are... nasty.


----------



## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Dallas_Drake said:


> Nay.
> 
> For the simple reason that they're hard to keep out of LOS & a lucky Lascannon can end a Grinders day before it's even joined the fun, a Daemon Prince on the other hand would simply take a wound (if it failed its 5++ that is).
> 
> Also, I think they're weak fluff & look crap. Nurgle Daemon Princes all the way.


Well A daemon prince can't drop a pie plate

And the arguement that a "lucky" lascannon shot can take it out then goes for everything with armour in the game. I see this as a weak arguement in all cases of whether or not to take a vehicle as a "lucky" lascannon shot can take out a landraider or monolith or etc...


----------



## VictorLazarus (Mar 5, 2009)

It seems like a good unit with Phlegm - thats a blast so BS not a big issue plus can fire that and the other weapon. Its got 13 armour so seems good plus possessed.

Its one of few things in the army that could take out land raiders or dreads in combat.

MVL.


----------



## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Since they are the only AV entry in the CD codex Id say that 2+ or none are the 2 roads to travel. Phlegm is the uppgrade of choice on them. If you have 2 then the opponent must split/choose target which will cause problems. AV13 is hell of a lot better then 12 which the codex booring equivalent has(Defilers in CSM) so they should be usefull


----------



## spudboy (Jun 13, 2008)

MaidenManiac said:


> Since they are the only AV entry in the CD codex Id say that 2+ or none are the 2 roads to travel. Phlegm is the uppgrade of choice on them. If you have 2 then the opponent must split/choose target which will cause problems. AV13 is hell of a lot better then 12 which the codex booring equivalent has(Defilers in CSM) so they should be usefull


Katie Drake's latest lists (check the Chaos Daemons Army List forum) feature just that, two SG with phlegm. This was what got my mind grinding, since she started out saying just after the codex came out that she didn't see them as being a 'must-have' unit in a daemon army. That was probably before 5th ed., though.


----------



## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

As with any army, a lone vehicle is vulnerable because all the lascannons are pointed at it. Many vehicles ensure that some will get through.

Grinders are good, on their own merits. They suffer because they are the only vehicles in the book. They will tend to do well in heavy daemon armies which use other big stuff, like greater daemons, plague bearers and bloodcrushers. In this army your opponent's AT is over-stretched and his AP is useless.


----------



## spudboy (Jun 13, 2008)

Someguy said:


> As with any army, a lone vehicle is vulnerable because all the lascannons are pointed at it. Many vehicles ensure that some will get through.


Hence the rational behind most mechanized armies.

Loading for bear with heavy-duty units to offer multiple targets is certainly the way to go with the SG. 

So, Grinders are viable (more than?) so long as the army is designed to accomodate them. Would this be accurate?


----------



## Sqwerlpunk (Mar 1, 2009)

spudboy said:


> So, Grinders are viable (more than?) so long as the army is designed to accomodate them. Would this be accurate?


That'd be accurate for nearly any unit.


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Unless one is running a Tally Nurgle list, Soul Grinders are too good to pass up in many cases. No upgrades but Phlegm are needed - a half-range battle cannon on an AV13 unshakable and unstunnable vehicle that can _Deep Strike_ is incredibly good. Soul Grinders tend to excel against smaller, more elite armies like Space Marines and Necrons, but can also do well against armies like Orks or Tyranids by virtue of being able to drop a huge template.

As has been said before though, in games of 1500 points or more, go with two or none. A single Grinder doesn't usually survive the game despite its resilience, so double up to make sure that you can land at least one devastating phlegm template per game.

Also, not a huge thing, but something that I find far too many people forget - phlegm uses the large blast template, but is _not_ an ordnance weapon, so nothing prevents you from firing the harvester in addition to the mawcannon. 6 S4 shots helps a lot against those hordes and can sometimes be enough to finish off the last survivor or two of a unit after being hit over the hit with a pie plate.


----------



## spudboy (Jun 13, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> As has been said before though, in games of 1500 points or more, go with two or none. A single Grinder doesn't usually survive the game despite its resilience, so double up to make sure that you can land at least one devastating phlegm template per game.


That brings up something I was wondering about. In an army of less than 1500, what then? In Japan, just about every battle is up to 1000 points, or Apoc (that is, either people with starter armies, or a massive collection). A smaller list could accomodate maybe one, but two is too much of a point sink at that level, I think. Any opinions?


----------



## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

spudboy said:


> That brings up something I was wondering about. In an army of less than 1500, what then? In Japan, just about every battle is up to 1000 points, or Apoc (that is, either people with starter armies, or a massive collection). A smaller list could accomodate maybe one, but two is too much of a point sink at that level, I think. Any opinions?


One is just fine at 1K. Two _could_ be done, but you'd be spending a lot of points and most of your games would likely be decided by how effective your Soul Grinders were.


----------



## Dallas_Drake (Jan 26, 2009)

Well without getting bogged down in hypotheticals I think the fact that it can be taken out in one shot isn't that weak an argument. I was wrong to write 'a lucky lascannon shot' when in fact there are plenty of weapons that can take AV13.

This really is a case of preference in the end & I'm sure people will find different uses for each. However, in answer to the question yay or nay, I say nay.

I do agree that taking one is counter productive, like the other posters said they need to be in pairs (or more) to survive since they are such big scary targets.


----------



## VictorLazarus (Mar 5, 2009)

Don't foget its possessed so a 3rd of all hits might not affect it at all. I have had games where I haven't been able to get a single 5 or 6 on a vehicle damage roll no matter how many lascannons I shot. (but thats my luck)

On the other hand its £35!

MVL.


----------



## Dallas_Drake (Jan 26, 2009)

VictorLazarus said:


> Don't foget its possessed so a 3rd of all hits might not affect it at all. I have had games where I haven't been able to get a single 5 or 6 on a vehicle damage roll no matter how many lascannons I shot. (but thats my luck)
> 
> On the other hand its £35!
> 
> MVL.


True, 35 quid for one model does sting but I think Daemons players are used to paying though the nose, I know I am; 

A while back I went out to get things for the house, wandered into GW & bought 15 Plaguebearers, 4 Crushers, 5 Fiends and 2 Greater Daemons in one go... yeah the missus was a bit miffed :laugh:

But seriously (on topic), if people like them & are convinced they work then they should go for them, even if it means saving up for those few weeks/months longer.


----------



## spudboy (Jun 13, 2008)

VictorLazarus said:


> Don't foget its possessed so a 3rd of all hits might not affect it at all. I have had games where I haven't been able to get a single 5 or 6 on a vehicle damage roll no matter how many lascannons I shot. (but thats my luck)
> 
> On the other hand its £35!
> 
> MVL.


Possessed? Oh, wait, I see. The Daemon rule as it applies to the Grinder lets you ignore Shaken and Stunned (like possessed, I'm guessing).

Yeah, the price tag... that has me leary. One I might be able to swing, but two? Not for a loooong while. Guess that would be all the more reason to mix him with a few other big baddies (greater daemons, which are also expensive, or a DP) that I've already got budgeted in.


----------



## Meatplow (May 5, 2009)

I solved my Soulgrinder finance problem with the help of my LGS. They have deal where if you play 20 minimum-sized (i.e..Starter box, 1k 40k, etc...) games in their store within 4 months, you earn $50 USD of credit there. (Limit 4 games per day.) I play 20 in a month most months and last night I got my first Grinder from this nifty little deal. I'll have 3 in no time...:grin:


----------



## Crane948 (Dec 8, 2008)

Played my friend earlier he had daemons me nids and his soul grinders were great... They shot up my genestealers and Gaunts Until my tyrant got into combat with em  but still they made up their points and then some


----------



## Dallas_Drake (Jan 26, 2009)

Meatplow said:


> I solved my Soulgrinder finance problem with the help of my LGS. They have deal where if you play 20 minimum-sized (i.e..Starter box, 1k 40k, etc...) games in their store within 4 months, you earn $50 USD of credit there. (Limit 4 games per day.) I play 20 in a month most months and last night I got my first Grinder from this nifty little deal. I'll have 3 in no time...


This is a really good idea! I wish UK stores did something similar. I also think a scheme where you get credit for introucing people to the hobby would be a good idea (i.e a one off £10 credit when your friend buys their first army battle force or units to the price of > £50, etc).

As for Grinders. Well yeah, there's no denying they add an edge. Regarding their price... well, we mustn't forget that there are alternative outlets that sell GW products, many at reduced prices.


----------



## refractory (Sep 15, 2008)

when i had my daemon army i ran no less than 3 soul grinders. i would drop 2 on the first turn, and leave one for the other player to worry about. but then i also ran big HQ's as well. 

(most games in my shop are no less than 2k.)

personally i think they are one of the best vehicles in the game, as the\y have good weapons, can fleet, and have awsome CC.


----------



## Juiceypoop (Jun 5, 2008)

I play Daemons and I say Yay. A soul grinder with phlegm is only 160 points, it can fire both it's template weapon and it's harvester gun at the same time, it deep strikes, it has 5 str 10 attacks on the charge and has fleet, it's str6 flame template clears infantry out of cover, it's practically impossible for enemy infantry to destroy in assault, it's cheaper than your average daemon prince, and in my experience lives longer too. 

If you don't like the model, convert it. 

I currently field 2 soul grinder's in my army. 
They've earned their points a dozen times over, most of the times i've fielded DP's, they've died to mass bolter or shuriken catapult fire. A lucky lascannon shot has to be LUCKY. Mass small arms fire is pretty much a GARUNTEE.


----------

