# New Daemons Nerfed into the Ground Some More...



## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Not sure if anyone here has been following the High Elf rumors, but if like myself you're a Daemon player, prepare to shelve your army entirely... (well, at least for Tournament play)

High Elves new Banner of the World Dragon;
- 2+ ward save vs all magical attacks, including attacks from Magic Weapons and models that make Magical Attacks!
- All Dragons, (friend or foe), within 12" are Stubborn.

And the cost for this? Well, Swordmasters are confirmed via WD to have access to the banner, which means that White Lions, Phoenix Guard & Dragon Princes almost certainly have access to it as well!

So yes, High Elves can make an entire unit almost completely immune *to our entire army* all for the low-low cost of 25 Skaven Slaves!:suicide:


And while for now it might only be us poor Daemons crying foul that a HE "Skill Banner" deathstar is an auto-lose game...
...Wait till the rest of you see Alarielle

- She gives her unit a 5++ ward save.
- Is a Lv4 mage w/access to High Magic, Life or Light. (and is rumored to be able to combine them)
- Gets +1 to-cast all High Magic like all other HE wizards
- Can once per game, re-cast a spell she's already attempted. (wether it succeeded or was dispelled)
- Has Heroic Killing Blow vs all models from the Forces of Disorder
- Gets a Bound? automatic D6/S4 hits magic missile vs all Daemons of Chaos units within 12"
Oh, and she's only 12.5 Skaven Slaves shy of 400pts!

*IF* the new High Magic lore attribute works as is rumored, then HE players can now build 75% of their army with a 3+(shooting)/3++(mundane)/2++(magic)uke:

Welcome to the new Wardhammer!


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

If the world dragon works like that then someone hasn't been thinking too well. it would be great if they had that save against magical weapons as that would be really characterful and give them a great counter against the beastliest characters/SC but against magical attacks is just silly. Its the Dark Excommunication of fantasy daemons (dark excom removed 'all daemonic gifts' which included all armour, mounts and weapons, even rending claws, from a unit in base contact).
Other then that it sounds good: it means that it gives no protection against instagib spells like dwellers so having a big deathstar protected by it might work against daemons but in a tourny it would also let you get massacred if someone brought the right spell combo.

Arielle sounds fine: I'm guessing that she isn't a combat powerhouse so despite HKB won't have many attacks, won't have impressive toughness or armour... so although it sounds like she's pretty horrible against daemons I doubt many other armies will fear her that much (I expect a Lv4 archmage with his choice of magic items could be made far worse).


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Tim/Steve said:


> If the world dragon works like that then someone hasn't been thinking too well. it would be great if they had that save against magical weapons as that would be really characterful and give them a great counter against the beastliest characters/SC but against magical attacks is just silly. Its the Dark Excommunication of fantasy daemons (dark excom removed 'all daemonic gifts' which included all armour, mounts and weapons, even rending claws, from a unit in base contact).
> Other then that it sounds good: it means that it gives no protection against instagib spells like dwellers so having a big deathstar protected by it might work against daemons but in a tourny it would also let you get massacred if someone brought the right spell combo.


This is worse than Dark Ex actually;
a) GK's can't potentially cover upto 75% of their entire army with Dark Ex.
b) Multi-charging the Dark Ex model always gave you one unaffected unit to beatstick with. (ie: charge that Dreadknight w/both Fiends & Seekers, and suddenly it's a Deadknight!:biggrin

BotWD, (or the "Skill Banner" as The Daemonic Legion forums have dubbed it!), can give almost then entire HE army near instant immunity to absolutely *ANYTHING* Daemons can possibly do to them!:headbutt:

A Daemon player has only the following so-called "options" vs a new HE Bannerstar:
a) Run away.
b) Hex the offending unit w/Miasma multiple times and then hope you can 6-dice an IF'ed Pit of Shades/Purple Sun.
c) 6-Dice Final Trans until the unit's gone... while not exploding horribly from all those miscasts!
d) Shake hands and find a new opponent... (not really an option in any tournament of corse!)



Tim/Steve said:


> Arielle sounds fine: I'm guessing that she isn't a combat powerhouse so despite HKB won't have many attacks, won't have impressive toughness or armour... so although it sounds like she's pretty horrible against daemons I doubt many other armies will fear her that much (I expect a Lv4 archmage with his choice of magic items could be made far worse).


The fear is how will the new High Magic lore attribute work... If it's just +1 stackable ward save for a turn, she's mean to everyone when put into a Bannerstar unit, but not horrible.
BUT!
If the lore attribute works like the WoC/DoC Warpflame rule and gives perma +1 ward save... well, good luck fighting a horde of White Lions who now enjoy a 3+ ward vs mundane attacks & 2+ ward vs all magical damage...

And no, you can't Terror Bomb her unit either, because she makes them immune to Fear/Terror.
Thus, such a unit can only viably be delt with by chucking 6 dice at Dwellers/Final Trans. (and Orcs & Gobbos, TK's, VC's, Beastmen, Ogres don't have access to either lore, while Skaven will need to Dreaded 13th the buggers...)


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

You can say with almost certainty that it won't be a permanent stackable ward save, or that if it is then it'll not be automatic per each spell. Depending how it works a temporary +1 ward could actually be quite decent: if it was +1 for each unit hit by an augment spell then I think it would be appropriate, but if its +1 for the mage's unit whenever they cast any spell then it'll be kinda silly... but we'll see.

End of the day I'm not going to worry about it too much until I know exactly how it all works... if it does end up being stupidly beastly then the only difference in my life is I'll stop going to 1-2 tournaments a year, which I'm already thinking about stopping going to due to a stupid change in the tourny rules.


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## Sworn Radical (Mar 10, 2011)

experiment 626 said:


> Not sure if anyone here has been following the High Elf rumors, but if like myself you're a Daemon player, prepare to shelve your army entirely... (well, at least for Tournament play)
> 
> High Elves new Banner of the World Dragon;
> - 2+ ward save vs all magical attacks, including attacks from Magic Weapons and models that make Magical Attacks!
> ...



Oh ... . awesomeness, another BotWD whine thread ... 

Yes, it is pretty damn good against DoC or any army list with a heavy focus on magic missile spam.
But if you fail to outmaneuver a single unit (which will most likely be quite big) for the better part of a game (which most often only lasts six turns), then you failed miserably at playing warhammer.

Also, if you dig deeper in the the new HE book, you'll come up with some pretty obvious combinations that'll easily produce a Phoenix Guard _'deathstar' _with a 3+ ward save, and that's not just against _magical _attacks. IF what we've been allowed to read thus far will prove correct of course. And that is but a single example. 

So yeah, BotWD is annoying, but not as broken as say ... a list featuring two Skullcannons ... ^^

And no, I'm neither a HE nor a DoC player ...


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## Ork Mad (Sep 17, 2010)

Sworn Radical said:


> Oh ... . awesomeness, another BotWD whine thread ...
> 
> Yes, it is pretty damn good against DoC or any army list with a heavy focus on magic missile spam.
> But if you fail to outmaneuver a single unit (which will most likely be quite big) for the better part of a game (which most often only lasts six turns), then you failed miserably at playing warhammer.
> ...


Skullcannons aren't that bad, especially compared to oger's cannon thingy or the many cheap cannons of the dwarfs

and how many points did you say the BotWD was?


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Ork Mad said:


> Skullcannons aren't that bad, especially compared to oger's cannon thingy or the many cheap cannons of the dwarfs
> 
> and how many points did you say the BotWD was?


A whole whopping 24.5 Skaven Slaves... So Dragon Princes, Swordmasters, Phoenix Guard & White Lions all have access to it.




Sworn Radical said:


> Oh ... . awesomeness, another BotWD whine thread ...
> 
> Yes, it is pretty damn good against DoC or any army list with a heavy focus on magic missile spam.
> But if you fail to outmaneuver a single unit (which will most likely be quite big) for the better part of a game (which most often only lasts six turns), then you failed miserably at playing warhammer.
> ...


Ah yes, the 'ol, "lrn-to-play & re-direct/chaff/keep-away from the 'uber unit"
On the other hand, if you've ever actually taken the time to read the new DoC book, you'll realise this isn't an option for us Daemon players.
Oh, and you do realise HE's have a handy spell that gives them upto a 20" ethereal move, yes? (so much for chaff it/re-direct it...)

And if you honestly think 2 Skullcannons is more broken than a *non-BSB required* banner that lets an *ENTIRE* unit, (and potentially upto 75% of an entire fucking army), ignore:
a) All but 2 Miscast results
b) Almost every single fighty character in the entire game (while HE's can keep their own tooled-up fighters no less)
c) Almost every actually scary war machine (you know, including those Dwarfs who tend to really rely on their Runes)
d) _2 entire armies' ability to deal any kind of real d__amage, _ beyond brainless 6-dice Dwellers/Final Trans FTW!

Then I daresay the so-called "whiners" aren't the actual problem here...

Let me ask you this, if YOUR army could get a 2++ for all of the above for under 55pts, would you honestly consider that crap/not worth taking in every list?!


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## Sworn Radical (Mar 10, 2011)

experiment 626 said:


> On the other hand, if you've ever actually taken the time to read the new DoC book, you'll realise this isn't an option for us Daemon players.


Really ? How so ?



> Oh, and you do realise HE's have a handy spell that gives them upto a 20" ethereal move, yes? (so much for chaff it/re-direct it...)


Yes, but you have to get that spell first, and then cast it at the advanced level.
Weren't we dicsussing units with _'broken'_ ward saves though ?
And while we're discussing saves ... an empire army consisting solely and exclusively of modells with a 1+ AS and a few pieces of artillery is a lot more scary one might think. Lots of people believe that's OP as well ...
In the end, it comes down to the old _key-and-keyhole_ principle really.
I can see the banner being bloody annoying, granted. But it's not the most 'powerful' thing the new HE book let's you roll onto the table IMHO. While we're at it, I would rate it a very good book, but not _'broken' _or other words the internet community likes to toss around early. Need to read the book in its entirety tonight though.



> And if you honestly think 2 Skullcannons is more broken ...


Yes, I still do so.



> ...than a *non-BSB required* banner that lets an *ENTIRE* unit, (and potentially upto 75% of an entire fucking army), ignore:
> a) All but 2 Miscast results


This is actually the one thing I would pick the BotWD for - slim down miscasts. 



> b) Almost every single fighty character in the entire game (while HE's can keep their own tooled-up fighters no less)


The metagame changes all the time. I'm actually at the point where I field killy characters without magical weapons in bigger games to supplement those with magical attacks. 
Every time a new army book is released the meta will change, and there were some truely unexpected changes up to this point in 8th.
I'm going to ask a friend and DoC player to lend me his models for a couple games, before I'll pass final judgment on the HE.



> c) Almost every actually scary war machine (you know, including those Dwarfs who tend to really rely on their Runes)
> d) _2 entire armies' ability to deal any kind of real d__amage, _ beyond brainless 6-dice Dwellers/Final Trans FTW!


Actually, the so-called 6-dicing of Dwellers/Trans/Purple Sun is more of a problem in the meta, but that's only my opinion of course.



> Then I daresay the so-called "whiners" aren't the actual problem here...
> 
> Let me ask you this, if YOUR army could get a 2++ for all of the above for under 55pts, would you honestly consider that crap/not worth taking in every list?!


Yes, because I value tactic skill, sportmanship and friendly mannerism when I play a game of fantasy warfare. And I know, at my local club, the friendly atmosphere would surely go down the drain when someone whipped out that banner. And I wouldn't like to be the one responsible.
In a tournament I wouldn't take it because there's a much broader spectrum than merely DoC lists. For competitive play I'd prolly invest in a block of Phoenix Guard with a mage.
But we all play in different environments ...


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## Ork Mad (Sep 17, 2010)

Sworn Radical said:


> Really ? How so ?
> 
> every single thing daemons can do damage with is magical in some way, and almost all their units have had a nerf or at least an increase in points (not including of course the new units)
> 
> ...


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## Sworn Radical (Mar 10, 2011)

Ork Mad said:


> every single thing daemons can do damage with is magical in some way, and almost all their units have had a nerf or at least an increase in points (not including of course the new units)


Oh, I know that, there's a tiny missunderstanding.
I was refering to _experiement 626's _claims that DoC are unable to redirect and use chaff. 
The_ 'How so ?'_ applies to that claim. 




> ... too true ...


Thank you


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## Ork Mad (Sep 17, 2010)

Sworn Radical said:


> Oh, I know that, there's a tiny missunderstanding.
> I was refering to _experiement 626's _claims that DoC are unable to redirect and use chaff.
> The_ 'How so ?'_ applies to that claim.
> i'm not sure what you mean by chaff, but daemons can redirect charge just like any other unit
> ...


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

chaff- cheap throwaway units useful for dying in advantageous ways such as drawing charges or blocking shooting lines to more important units.


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Sworn Radical said:


> Really ? How so ?


Daemons are Immune to Psych, so we can't 'bait and run' like everyone else, bar undead, can.
Also, due to Daemonic Instability, we can't tarpit the likes of elite Elf units, especially now that all High Elves fight in 3 ranks! (4 if horded up). And with the most recent FAQ, exploding to DI, (which is very likely since we'll be lucky to kill even 2 elves!), that unit can now overrun like normal. (so in the end, we've achived a whole lot of piss-all)
Finally, Daemons don't even have chaff to begin with! Our "cheapest" unit still costs us 11pts/model. (ie: that's just 2pts less than a White Lion!) Beasts of Nurgle who typically fill the roll of so-called Daemonic-chaff, cost more than the bloody banner to boot! Daemons are expensive - generally most of our book is slightly overcosted and thus we simply don't play the chaff game like everyone else with access to 5-6pts or less units and/or non-ItP Fast Cav can...

And then there's the fact that, if I'm feeding this monster unit chaff, I'm also feeding it victory points.
If the HE player is locking away 1000pts out their 2k list, that means they only need to kill 1100pts of my stuff to win. Having to "just chaff it" and feed it what will likely turn out to be roughly 400pts minimum worth stuff isn't helping much... (now I've got to somehow kill the 1000pts I _can_ kill, while only giving up another 600pts to even earn a draw!)
Again, god forbid the HE player sits 75% of their army within the banner's protection! At that point, they only need to kill 600pts of Daemons to win. You know, like all that so-called "chaff" I should apparently be feeding it plus another 100pts give-or-take... (ie: if said HE player loses or even draws, they're a gakking huge moron!)

All the while, the HE player can sit their SkillBannerstar back safe and sound and magic the crap out of me, or else Walk Between Worlds it's way across the table with impunity. (or even just eat whatever it accidently runs into!)
And it's not like the other 1000pts isn't going to do some decent damage as well, since Daemons overall only have a 5++ to protect them.

It's a no-win senario no matter how you slice it when a Daemon player faces 50% or more of a High Elf army that's protected by it's special 2++ Wardsave banner.:suicide:

THAT! is why all of us Daemon players are screaming foul.
Immagine if your opponent could take a 50pts hit at the start of the game and automatically give 50%+ of their entire army a 2++ save against any damage you inflict?!


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## Sworn Radical (Mar 10, 2011)

experiment 626 said:


> Daemons are Immune to Psych, so we can't 'bait and run' like everyone else, bar undead, can.


Oh, I'll sign that any day, sure. At the moment I exclusively play Vampire Counts, after having sold my WoC and DoC armies.



> Also, due to Daemonic Instability, we can't tarpit the likes of elite Elf units ...


Sure, tarpitting them will get you nowhere, and will yield you 1 to 2 turns at best. Not a long term strategy to keep 'em occupied.



> Finally, Daemons don't even have chaff to begin with! Our "cheapest" unit still costs us 11pts/model.


Five Harpies. Period.
They're more expensive than most other armies chaff and redirection unit, but at the same moment they're fliers and could thus also hunt warmachines or redirect other fliers. So, they're quite okay for what they do, really. 
Sure, they're not ethereal like a Spirit Host, but they make more than up for that.

While no _'true'_ chaff units in the sense of the word Nurglings come to mind. They're scouts and not that expensive if you only bring two.
In battles with a bigger points scale Beasts of Nurgle will also excel at redirection and may even hold up a unit when engaged. Of yourse that only applies to games where you'd afford them.
But with the entire meta shifting towards nurgle anyways, it's not that much of a stretch.



> Again, god forbid the HE player sits 75% of their army within the banner's protection!


Might happen in a cometitive environment, a tournament or when you're playing against complete wankers (see my reference in my above post).
But then, in a tourney it'd be negligible, because your DoC army would be facing off against multiple enemies and not only HE in the end. Just sayin'.



> THAT! is why all of us Daemon players are screaming foul.
> Immagine if your opponent could take a 50pts hit at the start of the game and automatically give 50%+ of their entire army a 2++ save against any damage you inflict?!


Yes, I can imagine that. I allready gave you that before.
But, like I said, I'll wait, see and play a few games with my friends DoC before passing final judgment. I always do that when the meta is about to change, just playing the game from _'multiple angles'._


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

No-one would take a 75% army deathstar unit in a tourny... just wouldn't happen. Sure it would be excellent against daemons, but against any army with dwellers its just game over (and from my experience at least 1in4 armies has a high level life mage).


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Tim/Steve said:


> No-one would take a 75% army deathstar unit in a tourny... just wouldn't happen. Sure it would be excellent against daemons, but against any army with dwellers its just game over (and from my experience at least 1in4 armies has a high level life mage).


True, outside of a Teclis tailored Phoenix Guard pts denial unit, you won't see 75% of a HE army under the banner in a tournament...
But the item will still be a staple in competitive lists, and if a HE does draw up against Daemons, then they can simply shove most/all of their characters into that unit and you won't be getting those pts outside of insane luck.

But then most games aren't tournament games either...
Leagues, campaigns or just regular gaming nights where you show up at the store and make your list on-sight.

In a league or campaign, that typically also involves prizes for the top finishers, you can bet a High Elf player who knows ahead of time they'll be playing Daemons, will undoubably use the banner to screw over their opponent as it's pretty much a free win.



That, and this is now the second time as a Daemon player I'll have to put-up with _another_ army that 100% hard-counters my entire army!

Kinda funny though that not only did Ward end 40k Daemons with Grey-derp-Knights, but now he's double-nerfed into oblivion the army he wrote just before his High Elf book!:clapping:


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

experiment 626 said:


> Kinda funny though that not only did Ward end 40k Daemons with Grey-derp-Knights, but now he's double-nerfed into oblivion the army he wrote just before his High Elf book!:clapping:



Now I'm not a fan of Ward at all, his fluff is so "OMG LETS MAKE THIS UBER AWESOME screw any form of logic" it's not funny but you can't blame him for making GK's too good vs Deamons, right from the get go (we are talking since the 80's) GK's have been cutting through Deamons like a orbital bonbardment through a gretchin.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I think the only problem with GKs was that they kept their uberness against daemons while the daemons lost their old benefits from playing grey knights: it used to be (pre 5th ed I think) assumed that GKs would only be fighting the biggest daemonic incursions and to represent that the daemons would be able to bring back any unit killed (here might have been some limitations to that, just can't remember straight)... I guess the idea of balance took a nose dive when ward took over.

If the BotWD is as bad as we think then it'll likely be nerfed in an FAQ. While that is incredibly rare it happened to the power scroll after massive complaints that the item was stupid and I think (hope..?) the same will happen here.


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Tim/Steve said:


> I think the only problem with GKs was that they kept their uberness against daemons while the daemons lost their old benefits from playing grey knights: it used to be (pre 5th ed I think) assumed that GKs would only be fighting the biggest daemonic incursions and to represent that the daemons would be able to bring back any unit killed (here might have been some limitations to that, just can't remember straight)... I guess the idea of balance took a nose dive when ward took over.
> 
> If the BotWD is as bad as we think then it'll likely be nerfed in an FAQ. While that is incredibly rare it happened to the power scroll after massive complaints that the item was stupid and I think (hope..?) the same will happen here.


The main problems with GK's were shinanigans like Durp Quake disallowing a Daemon player from even putting a model on the fething table, to things that gained additional 'free' effects when facing Daemons and abilities that ouright picked on Daemons excessively... On top of the basic advantages like Prefered Enemy, (which makes sense), Daemonbane (which was unnessesary), only getting better under 6th edition and combo'd gear like psybolts. (wounds most Daemons on 2's w/re-rolls - FML!)


I'm not counting on a nerf to Banner of Ward Dragon personally... Power Scroll got nerfed because EVERYONE! was up in arms over it's applications and it would outright ruin anyone with a low-initiative army who faced off against a Death mage.

This is simply an item that hard-counters spells that really don't see much use to begin with, (because hexes & #6 spells are better), nerfs fighting characters who again, outside of a few armies are a rare sight and likely hurts Dwarf shoot the most...
And of corse completely screws over us poor Daemon players who are already coping with 8th ed's worst army book to date! (take that Tomb Kings!)

I'd love to see it FAQ'd to either become a BSB only item, or else either drop the stipulation about all basic magical attacks OR drop the Ward save to 4++ and leave it at its current cost.
However, such a ruling will likely have all the High Elf players up in arms screaming cheese and unfair treatment... I mean, have you seen the whining over Teclis no longer being a win-button and the loss of garenteed 12PD magic phases every turn?!


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