# Who can beat Curze in melee combat?



## CorvusGuardXIX

Curze says in Pharos that he can beat most of the primarchs including Sanguinius (doubtful about this since it was said Sanguinius can possibly defeat Angron). It got me thinking who could actually beat Curze in a fight and who would lose. I made my list below, which is divided into "definites" and "maybes".

Definite
Horus
Leman Russ (executioner, believes he can kill Horus)

Maybe
Lion El'Jonson (badly wounded Curze in prince of crows)
Sanguinius (considered to be one of the best primarchs in melee combat)
Corax
Angron
Fulgrim

There's a lot of conjecture on my part here. I'd like to know what other people's thoughts are on this topic.


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## Angel of Blood

There's no definitive way with any of them tbh. The Khan is amazing in combat, whilst Mortarion is so durable he just wears anyone else down, as seen in Scars for both of them. It's just going to be based on who writes it.


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## loki619

and i dont know why you say Horus for Definite since he wasnt as good a fighter as some of the others he was just an all rounder


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## Old Man78

After 2 bottles of Buckfast, I'd give him a run for his money! As A.O.B says hard to put a definite on it, as it as it varies between authours on what primarchs are like, in "the lightning tower" Dorn reckons he would have beaten Kurze if he had not been sucker punched, and that he would "spit" Angron in a fight


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## Kharn The Complainer

Rupert, the 21st Primarch, would have beaten him.


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## Iron Circle

Other than Angron beating Russ in night of the wolves in one on one combat, has there been ever a Primarch match with a clear winner? Lion and Curze are at a draw with 1-1 each (iirc), Russ vs Magnus, many will say that it was a lucky shot. I don't think there has been a clear winner in any other Primarch feud other than the one between Russ and Angron.

Vulkan vs Curze? Probably Vulkan but he didn't exactly won in the end. Bottom-line is that even after 30+ HH novels, there can be no Primarch strength ranking.


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## Angel of Blood

Iron Circle said:


> Other than Angron beating Russ in night of the wolves in one on one combat, has there been ever a Primarch match with a clear winner? Lion and Curze are at a draw with 1-1 each (iirc), Russ vs Magnus, many will say that it was a lucky shot. I don't think there has been a clear winner in any other Primarch feud other than the one between Russ and Angron.
> 
> Vulkan vs Curze? Probably Vulkan but he didn't exactly won in the end. Bottom-line is that even after 30+ HH novels, there can be no Primarch strength ranking.


Well before Lorgar had is 'awakening' Corax absolutely dominated him. Probably far more than any other fight. 

I wouldn't say Angron and Russ is a fair example either. Russ didn't want to kill Angron and wasn't willing to either I don't think, he just had a hubris moment and genuinely thought Angron would back down. Angron on the other hand was more than willing, plus he would have died anyway as the Legion had surrounded him, cutting him off from his own men.


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## piemelke

Although I found Curze in UE rather over the top,
based upon betrayer and the fight Russ vs Angron, I would say Angron definitely has an edge,
The Khan was convincing against Mortarion, I think he won on points,
Fulgrim got help from a Daemonic sword...
but these are rather pointless discussions as in the end Kharn the naysayer is right, Rupert would have beaten them all, if he was not suffering from cmd
we have heard about the martial prowess of Sanguinus and his wrath, it's about time we actually get to read about it


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## Brother Lucian

I recall someone used the forgeworld rules for the primarchs to put up a power ranking. Horus came out on top because of his rules simply trashing everyone else.


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## Iron Circle

Angel of Blood said:


> Well before Lorgar had is 'awakening' Corax absolutely dominated him. Probably far more than any other fight.


Yeah forgot about it, but as you said "You have changed" Lorgar is a different beast, he did dominated the demon Fulgrim and speaking of Fulgrim, what about Fulgrim vs Ferrus? I forgot about that too, although second encounter couldn't be said to be strictly fair, I do think that their first encounter on Ferrus' flagship was fair and Fulgrim did came on top at the end of it.

Horus is still to fight any Primarch but I think he will be written as someone who will win any conflict against any other Primarch. Probably we can see a Russ vs Horus match soon.

Then I do understand that writing one Primarch as absolutely better than other is problematic.


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## Gabriel Chase

I dunno which of the other primarchs would take him on after his super-duper smoke ninja powers in *The Unremembered Empire*, but I'd certainly fight him for a tenner! Or a bowl of soup.


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## DelvarusThePitFighter

Guilliman bests Lorgar and Alpharius
Fulgrim bests Ferrus Manus
Angron bests Guilliman and Russ
Curze bests Vulkan? and repeatedly fights the Lion. Also bests Corax but that's kinda unfair to say
Corax bests Lorgar
I know there are others, I've no doubt forgotten a few but those are the main ones I've read about that stick in my memory


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## MontytheMighty

CorvusGuardXIX said:


> Curze says in Pharos that he can beat most of the primarchs including Sanguinius


Leman Russ thinks he can beat Traitor Horus

"thinks"

The Lion has beaten Curze. It was a bit more than "badly wounded". The Lion was standing, saluting a fallen foe.

Curze was gushing blood from his throat before entering a coma. That's called losing


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## alt-f4

I personally think that a lot of Primarchs would overcome Curze in pure melee duel (Vulkan did it twice while being weakened, for instance, bare hands and with his hammer).

If I had to make the ranking of Primarchs in that matter, I would split them up in 3 groups :

The best ones

1. Horus (seen as the best by all the others, he barely defeated the Emperor himself when boosted by Chaos)
2. Sanguinius (defeated a great Bloodthirster at Signus Prime)
3. Angron (beated Leman Russ and Guilliman)
4. Fulgrim (perfect duellist, defeated an Avatar of Khaine)
5. Leman Russ (defeated by Angron, beated Magnus)
6. Vulkan (beated Curze twice)

The average ones

7. Roboute Guilliman (defeated by Angron)
8. Mortarion (slightly overcoming the Khan)
9. Jagatai Khan (closely losing against Mortarion)
10. Lion El'Jonson (defeated Curze)
11. Perturabo (weaker than the "elevated" Fulgrim)
12. Ferrus Manus (killed by Fulgrim)

The weak ones

13. Konrad Curze (beaten by Vulkan and Lion El'Jonson, overcoming Corax)
14. Corax (better than Lorgar, slightly weaker than Curze)
15. Rogal Dorn (beaten by Curze)
16. Magnus the Red (beaten by Leman Russ)
17. Alpharius (physically shorter than his brothers, likely beaten by Guilliman)
18. Lorgar (beaten by Corax and Guilliman)


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## MontytheMighty

alt-f4 said:


> 8. Mortarion (slightly overcoming the Khan)
> 9. Jagatai Khan (closely losing against Mortarion)


In what world is this true?

Also, if you're gonna say Curze beat Dorn, then you'd have to say the Lion beat Russ


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## Angel of Blood

alt-f4 said:


> I personally think that a lot of Primarchs would overcome Curze in pure melee duel (Vulkan did it twice while being weakened, for instance, bare hands and with his hammer).
> 
> If I had to make the ranking of Primarchs in that matter, I would split them up in 3 groups :
> 
> The best ones
> 
> 1. Horus (seen as the best by all the others, he barely defeated the Emperor himself when boosted by Chaos)
> 2. Sanguinius (defeated a great Bloodthirster at Signus Prime)
> 3. Angron (beated Leman Russ and Guilliman)
> 4. Fulgrim (perfect duellist, defeated an Avatar of Khaine)
> 5. Leman Russ (defeated by Angron, beated Magnus)
> 6. Vulkan (beated Curze twice)
> 
> The average ones
> 
> 7. Roboute Guilliman (defeated by Angron)
> 8. Mortarion (slightly overcoming the Khan)
> 9. Jagatai Khan (closely losing against Mortarion)
> 10. Lion El'Jonson (defeated Curze)
> 11. Perturabo (weaker than the "elevated" Fulgrim)
> 12. Ferrus Manus (killed by Fulgrim)
> 
> The weak ones
> 
> 13. Konrad Curze (beaten by Vulkan and Lion El'Jonson, overcoming Corax)
> 14. Corax (better than Lorgar, slightly weaker than Curze)
> 15. Rogal Dorn (beaten by Curze)
> 16. Magnus the Red (beaten by Leman Russ)
> 17. Alpharius (physically shorter than his brothers, likely beaten by Guilliman)
> 18. Lorgar (beaten by Corax and Guilliman)


Angron beat Guilliman? You mean Angron and Lorgar beat Guilliman, who was still holding his own against both of them for a while. 

As Monty said for 8 and 9, where do you get that Mortarion slightly best the Khan. 

How is the Lion average? 

Also for 11. Whilst I agree that Perterabo isn't amongst the top tier, he had been drained of all his energy by the stone Fulgrim 'gifted' him beforehand. His actual life force was being sucked into the stone for Fulgrimd use. 

14. Saying Corax was in anyway beaten by Curze is also one of those that gets floated around. Corax had just brutally beaten and envicerated Lorgar, and would have killed him had Curze not intervened. Corax is smart, he's already been fighting desperately on Istvaan V even before the second wave, he's then slaughtered his way through the Gal Vorbak and Lorgsr, but now is up against a fresh Curze and can see his men getting slaughtered. It's either pull back and help his men, or fight Curze, who is fresh, watch his men get slaughtered more and have Lorgar rejoin the fight if it takes too long. 

As for Alpharius, it's very, very unlikely he was killed by Guilliman. Everything about Eskrsdor screams Alpha Legion manipulations. But more telling, the whole account was told by an Inquistor who later fled after being suspected of being an Alpha Legion agent. The Ultramarines themselves are sceptical about Eskrador. 

I would place both the Khan and the Lion in the upper tier as well.


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## alt-f4

MontytheMighty said:


> In what world is this true?


The feeling I had after reading Scars is that the Khan and his Terminators would have lost the fight against Mortarion and his Terminators if Mortarion didn't have to leave in order to save his whole fleet.

I'll read it again soon and see if I feel different afterwards.



> Also, if you're gonna say Curze beat Dorn, then you'd have to say the Lion beat Russ


From what I know about the Lion and Russ, it looks more like a quarrel than a real fight (but that comes from the global W40K background, not the novels). Dorn has clearly been beaten down by Curze, who dominated the fight until he alone (Fulgrim presence in the area maybe helped it, though) decided to put an end to it.


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## alt-f4

I don't think there is an undoubtful ranking between all Primarchs, even in a specific domain. This is just my own feeling, and the difference between many of them could just be a tie.



Angel of Blood said:


> Angron beat Guilliman? You mean Angron and Lorgar beat Guilliman, who was still holding his own against both of them for a while.


Lorgar is one of the weakest (maybe "the" weakest) in melee (he hit an unaware Guilliman to the ground, but I'm pretty sure he would have lost a real ensuing fight).

And I'm also pretty sure that Angron beats Guilliman, because the melee is his key domain. Guilliman strategy and thinking is not much use against blind fury at close quarters (Angron would have crushed Kor Phaeron in less than 2 moves, according to me).



> As Monty said for 8 and 9, where do you get that Mortarion slightly best the Khan.
> 
> How is the Lion average?


Because, for me, he's not in the top 6 (but maybe close to it, like Guilliman, and maybe above the Khan and Mortarion ... it's difficult to make a real hierarchy between those of the average group).



> Also for 11. Whilst I agree that Perterabo isn't amongst the top tier, he had been drained of all his energy by the stone Fulgrim 'gifted' him beforehand. His actual life force was being sucked into the stone for Fulgrimd use.


Sure. But Fulgrim (and his legion) is a duellist by nature, where Perturabo is a tactician (playing chess or the wargame of the attack of Terra, I would say the opposite, of course).



> 14. Saying Corax was in anyway beaten by Curze is also one of those that gets floated around. Corax had just brutally beaten and envicerated Lorgar, and would have killed him had Curze not intervened. Corax is smart, he's already been fighting desperately on Istvaan V even before the second wave, he's then slaughtered his way through the Gal Vorbak and Lorgsr, but now is up against a fresh Curze and can see his men getting slaughtered. It's either pull back and help his men, or fight Curze, who is fresh, watch his men get slaughtered more and have Lorgar rejoin the fight if it takes too long.


How higher would you put Corax in such ranking, then ? Above Curze, I would agree ... they are in the same category for me : good fighter, but their true strength relies out of the direct hand to hand fight (stealth, hit and run, ambush, ...).



> As for Alpharius, it's very, very unlikely he was killed by Guilliman. Everything about Eskrsdor screams Alpha Legion manipulations. But more telling, the whole account was told by an Inquistor who later fled after being suspected of being an Alpha Legion agent. The Ultramarines themselves are sceptical about Eskrador.


Who knows ?

What remains is that Alpharius, by nature, is not oriented towards direct close combat, and that he is shorter and thinner than the other Primarchs, which helps his Space Marines to pretend being him. Height and weight are both key assets in melee.



> I would place both the Khan and the Lion in the upper tier as well.


Above which Primarch of this upper tier ?


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## DelvarusThePitFighter

piemelke said:


> Although I found Curze in UE rather over the top,
> based upon betrayer and the fight Russ vs Angron, I would say Angron definitely has an edge,
> The Khan was convincing against Mortarion, I think he won on points,
> Fulgrim got help from a Daemonic sword...
> but these are rather pointless discussions as in the end Kharn the naysayer is right, Rupert would have beaten them all, if he was not suffering from cmd
> we have heard about the martial prowess of Sanguinus and his wrath, it's about time we actually get to read about it


Fear to Tread? for Sanguinius I meant


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## DelvarusThePitFighter

Angel of Blood said:


> Angron beat Guilliman? You mean Angron and Lorgar beat Guilliman, who was still holding his own against both of them for a while.
> 
> As Monty said for 8 and 9, where do you get that Mortarion slightly best the Khan.
> 
> How is the Lion average?
> 
> Also for 11. Whilst I agree that Perterabo isn't amongst the top tier, he had been drained of all his energy by the stone Fulgrim 'gifted' him beforehand. His actual life force was being sucked into the stone for Fulgrimd use.
> 
> 14. Saying Corax was in anyway beaten by Curze is also one of those that gets floated around. Corax had just brutally beaten and envicerated Lorgar, and would have killed him had Curze not intervened. Corax is smart, he's already been fighting desperately on Istvaan V even before the second wave, he's then slaughtered his way through the Gal Vorbak and Lorgsr, but now is up against a fresh Curze and can see his men getting slaughtered. It's either pull back and help his men, or fight Curze, who is fresh, watch his men get slaughtered more and have Lorgar rejoin the fight if it takes too long.
> 
> As for Alpharius, it's very, very unlikely he was killed by Guilliman. Everything about Eskrsdor screams Alpha Legion manipulations. But more telling, the whole account was told by an Inquistor who later fled after being suspected of being an Alpha Legion agent. The Ultramarines themselves are sceptical about Eskrador.
> 
> I would place both the Khan and the Lion in the upper tier as well.



Thank you! Couldn't have said it better myself although I personally wonder If Girlyman did kill Alpharius but that's a bit of a grey area


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## MidnightSun

alt-f4 said:


> 3. Angron (beated Leman Russ and Guilliman)


Y'mean that time Russ let Angron beat him as to teach him that winning the war is more important than winning the battle?



alt-f4 said:


> 4. Fulgrim (perfect duellist, defeated an Avatar of Khaine)


Bending over an Avatar of Khaine and fucking it's candy ass like you're in a prison washroom is one of the basic entry requirements to get into the fluff, everyone does it. However, since Fulgrim has the highest Primarch kill count, even if one of them is by a poisoned sword after he turned into a giant daemon snake centaur thing, I won't say you're wrong.




alt-f4 said:


> 5. Leman Russ (defeated by Angron, beated Magnus)


Yeah, but he was _covered_ in anti-psyker fetishes and accompanied by the Sisters of Silence when he fought Magnus, and he lost to Angron on purpose.



alt-f4 said:


> 6. Vulkan (beat Curze twice)


He beat Curze once that I know of, but Curze fought and killed him about a dozen times on Macragge and was only stopped by Matt Damon throwing a daemon at him.

The average ones



alt-f4 said:


> 7. Roboute Guilliman (defeated by Angron)


But beat 'enlightened' Lorgar like the red headed stepchild of a rented mule.



alt-f4 said:


> 10. Lion El'Jonson (defeated Curze)


Beats Curze in a fair fight, but when Curze fights how Curze fights, then he's only saved by Corswain stabbing Curze _through the spine_ and even then, it's a draw. Then tries to double-team Curze with Roboute, and gets absolutely wrecked, only being saved by an arcane teleporter powered by pure, unadulterated bullshit.



alt-f4 said:


> 12. Ferrus Manus (killed by Fulgrim)


Chatted shit, did nothing of note, got wrecked.

The weak ones



alt-f4 said:


> Konrad Curze (beaten by Vulkan and Lion El'Jonson, overcoming Corax)


Beats a weak Corax, so we won't count it, but beats Guilliman and the Lion _at the same time_, draws with Sanguinius (remember that Sanguinius projects a psychic aura that forces everyone in the vicinity to fall to their knees and suck his angelic dick over his amazing amazingness - even other Primarchs), beats Vulkan like the ass of a mule rented by a red-headed step child. Loses to the Lion one time. Also manages to stay awesome despite the best efforts of Black Library.



alt-f4 said:


> 15. Rogal Dorn (beaten by Curze)


No, no, I think you've made the mistake of thinking that Dorn's done anything ever. He doesn't _lose_ a fight, he doesn't even _have_ a fight. Curze jumps him for the crime of being a two-dimensional prick and near enough kills him with his nails and teeth. 



alt-f4 said:


> 16. Magnus the Red (beaten by Leman Russ)


Implying that Russ ever accepts a fight he's not guaranteed to win?



alt-f4 said:


> 17. Alpharius (physically shorter than his brothers, likely beaten by Guilliman)


Nah, wait until the 30k series covers Eskrandor. There's not a snowball's chance in hell that Black Library will ever let the Alpha Legion ever lose anything ever. Also I assume he's the same size as a regular Primarch, he's just got a super power that lets him pretend to be an ordinary dude (Corax has invisibility and Mortarion can teleport, nothing would surprise me at this point)

If Black Library had a _shred_ of consistency then it'd be an interesting discussion, but given that the Primarch's fighting abilities (hell, all of their abilities) can be summed up as 'whatever the current plot demands them to be', any Primarch could fight any other Primarch in a BL novel and we'd have absolutely no idea what the outcome would be (Lion and Guilliman fight Curze, and _lose_, but are saved by the power of friendship).


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## Euphrati

In both instances that people are referring to for Leman Russ being 'beaten', i think people are forgetting that in neither of those instances was Russ actually out to kill his brothers.

The Lion suckered punches him after Russ dropped his guard and started laughing at the absurdity of their squabble. 

As for Angron, Russ was trying to confront his brother and stop him before Russ was sent officially to sanction him.

We have only seen Russ in full on Executioner mode once, and we all know the outcome of that. And it is hinted at more than once that it wasn't his first time to end a brother.

Russ doesn't enjoy being the Emperor's Executioner. He understands the need and that he is the only one that has the nature to do the task. But it isn't something that he takes pleasure in.


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## DelvarusThePitFighter

I actually believe Russ was simply more concerned with the battle as a whole rather than besting his brother Angron, who cared purely for the bragging right of beating the Wolf in single melee combat. The fight between the two was long and brutal which suggests Russ was not simply 'letting' his brother win. I think this is right as Angron's entire life has been devoted to melee combat, since childhood he has been forced to fight to the death in brutal gladiator pits, he embodies the perfect savage - if Russ is the Wolf, Angron is the fighting dog bred for exactly that, Angron is no tactical or strategic genius whatsoever and his brothers surely outclass him there, he even once said 'The quickest way to an enemy is a straight line'. Angron is however the most perfect warrior in close combat imo fluffwise, even his build and physicality come into play and match the typical traits of a fighter rather than a body builder or asthete like Fulgrim the 'Phoenician' - with massive upper body strength and vast shoulders, Angron is I would say 'Stockier' than most and likely a little shorter or at least his posture is very stooped and predatory - his build is top heavy, proving enormous strength and momentum when moving but losing the graceful finesse and probably balance seen by Sanguinius or Fulgrim through legs that have been given less attention - Angron fights with the top part of his already top-heavy body. Anyway I'm going off track my point being that I think Angron did indeed beat Russ alone fairly but it was one of Angron's closest fights hence why he glorifies his victory over Russ but ignores the fact that his force actually lost the battle and the Wolves had the two Primarchs surrounded by the end of the fight.


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## MontytheMighty

alt-f4 said:


> The feeling I had after reading Scars is that the Khan and his Terminators would have lost the fight against Mortarion and his Terminators if Mortarion didn't have to leave in order to save his whole fleet.


You're entitled to your feelings but I don't think it's suppprted by the text.

The Khan was more fatigued. Mortarion was more wounded and coughing up blood. It's hard to say whether Mortarion would have countered the Khan's final "limit break" strike.


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## MontytheMighty

MidnightSun said:


> Y'mean that time Russ let Angron beat him as to teach him that winning the war is more important than winning the battle?


Russ did not "let" Angron almost kill him in front of his men

Russ is not a fool. Letting Angron beat him would

1. Risk Russ' life against an angry madman
2. Give this angry madman an excuse to ignore his lesson...as Angron did. Angron thought he won because had beaten Russ in their duel and thus the battle around him didn't matter. Letting Angron beat him would weaken the lesson.

An enraged Russ charged a surprisingly lucid Angron...who thoroughly dominated their brawl and had the wits not to make an attempt to end Russ' life when Russ was at his mercy, crawling away from him.


Euphrati said:


> In both instances that people are referring to for Leman Russ being 'beaten', i think people are forgetting that in neither of those instances was Russ actually out to kill his brothers.


...and Angron was attempting to slay Russ?


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## MidnightSun

DelvarusThePitFighter said:


> Anyway I'm going off track my point being that I think Angron did indeed beat Russ alone fairly but it was one of Angron's closest fights hence why he glorifies his victory over Russ but ignores the fact that his force actually lost the battle and the Wolves had the two Primarchs surrounded by the end of the fight.


He doesn't ignore the fact that his force lost the battle _because he doesn't believe they did_. That's the whole *point* of the Night of the Wolf. Lorgar is agog that Angron can't see that the Night of the Wolf was an overwhelming Space Wolf victory. He says something about it being the greatest example of military application he's ever seen, or something to that effect.



MontytheMighty said:


> Russ did not "let" Angron almost kill him in front of his men
> 
> Russ is not a fool. Letting Angron beat him would
> 
> 1. Risk Russ' life against an angry madman


I don't think Russ was in any great danger, being as Angron was totally surrounded by Space Wolves aiming right at him. Could he have made it through their fire and gotten to Russ? Maybe - Primarchs are pretty fast. Could he have killed Russ before the massed Space Wolf fire killed him? I would say absolutely not. Primarchs are hard as balls to kill, even by the hands of each other. Curze inflicted twelve wounds on Dorn, any single one of which would kill an Astartes outright, according to Shang. Curze cut the Lion's throat and repeatedly smashed his head into a stone floor and the Lion made it through with no lasting damage. Curze was stabbed through the spine and kept fighting; along with all of his other injuries inflicted by the Lion and Corswain, it still only put him in a coma with apparently no permanent damage. Could Angron inflict enough damage to put permanent hurt on Russ, even ignoring the possibility of Russ having a personal teleporter or other planned intervention, before the Wolves killed him? I very much doubt it.



MontytheMighty said:


> 2. Give this angry madman an excuse to ignore his lesson...as Angron did. Angron thought he won because had beaten Russ in their duel and thus the battle around him didn't matter. Letting Angron beat him would weaken the lesson.


If Russ had won the duel, Angron wouldn't have been taught the lesson that to win the battle isn't to win the war - he'd have been taught that you can lose a battle and lose a war, which he probably knew already. Russ anticipated that Angron would have the shred of sense to learn from the Night of the Wolf - even Lorgar, who knew Angron much better than Russ, was absolutely aghast that Angron was obtuse enough to think that he could have possibly won the Night of the Wolf. Russ underestimated the incredible degree of Angron's mental damage, and thought he might still have the faintest glimmer of strategy left in his head. As it turns out, the Nails had already ruined Angron beyond salvation, and hence the Night didn't work out as Russ hoped.


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## piemelke

DelvarusThePitFighter said:


> Fear to Tread? for Sanguinius I meant


well I hoped Signus Prime opened his eyes and that we could now see some manifestation of the BA dark side unleashed on the traitor legions, allas it seems. In recent years quite a few legions have been fleshed out considerably (by good authors) and have been given a personality or whatever you want to call it.
E.g. Graham with the TS, EC
Dan with the UM/ AL / SW and from what I read on the forums also with the IF
Chris with the WS, SW and also IH I found 
WB/WE/NL/SOH (and to some extent gray knights and DA) by ADB (I liked his short on the UM, refreshing)
IW to some extent by Graham (storm of iron still being his best description), 
Salamanders got a lot of attention and a personality, not so much to my liking.
Gav did less of a job (my personal opinion) with the RG and DA (although I enjoyed his last DA book)
The BA (together with e.g. DG) can definitely use some love from a good author, now it seems they are just UM in red. Most of the legions have a distinct personality, TS are wizards, NL are murderers, AI are spies,.... I would speculate, that what makes the BA BAs is their bipolarity between their aristocratic erudite art thingies and their dark 'i want to dress with your intestines' side. It would be greatly appreciated, by me at least, if this were to be fleshed out more where we see both sides confronting the other legions. 
There is this scene during the siege where Angron and Sanguinus do a stare contest, I would like to see his evolution to this point from the primarch that spared Curze.
Now it would be unfair to state that this has not yet been done (I ignore James Swallow his contributions), e.g. Guy Haley in death of Integrity, David Annandale (e.g. Mephiston), ADB in Gaius point and the chaplain-Abbadon story (I have not yet red blackmane, too expensive), Graham in vengeful spirit (liked that one, made the distinction with the WE more clear). 
But the BA deserve their betrayer, hopefully the siege will give us that.


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## ntaw

MidnightSun said:


> Curze inflicted twelve wounds on Dorn, any single one of which would kill an Astartes outright, according to Shang. Curze cut the Lion's throat and repeatedly smashed his head into a stone floor and the Lion made it through with no lasting damage. Curze was stabbed through the spine and kept fighting; along with all of his other injuries inflicted by the Lion and Corswain, it still only put him in a coma with apparently no permanent damage.


I have read the wrong fucking HH novels :laugh:


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## MidnightSun

ntaw said:


> I have read the wrong fucking HH novels :laugh:


Source on those are The Dark King, The Lightning Tower (which honestly is one story split in twain rather than two shorts) and Prince of Crows. I bought the relevant anthologies _just_ for those stories...


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## MontytheMighty

MidnightSun said:


> Lorgar is agog that Angron can't see that the Night of the Wolf was an overwhelming Space Wolf victory.


You are dead wrong. ADB himself has described the Night of the Wolf as a "balanced" affair.

The Night of the Wolf was not an "overwhelming SW victory". I guarantee you that you have nothing to support that claim...and ADB himself disagrees with you.

Lorgar is agog that Angron misses Russ' point...Angron's men are incapable of intelligent, tactical thinking. Also, Lorgar wasn't there. He's simply expressing his opinion based on whatever conclusions he draws from Angron's simple account.

A good number of SW and WE die...Angron thinks more SW die, but Lorgar questions it. 100 SW surround the dueling primarchs. Angron clearly beats Russ into the dirt. Would Angron have been able to end Russ before 100 bolters stop him? Would those 100 bolters be able to track Angron without hitting Russ? We don't know. What we do know is that Angron simply lets Russ crawl off and start a speech.



> Curze cut the Lion's throat and repeatedly smashed his head into a stone floor and the Lion made it through with no lasting damage.


No...the Lion slashes Curze's throat, and Curze enters a deep coma, might have died but Sevatar psychically pulls him back to the light


----------



## MidnightSun

MontytheMighty said:


> You are dead wrong. ADB himself has described the Night of the Wolf as a "balanced" affair.
> 
> The Night of the Wolf was not an "overwhelming SW victory". I guarantee you that you have nothing to support that claim...and ADB himself disagrees with you.
> 
> Lorgar is agog that Angron misses Russ' point...Angron's men are incapable of intelligent, tactical thinking. Also, Lorgar wasn't there. He's simply expressing his opinion based on whatever conclusions he draws from Angron's simple account.
> 
> A good number of SW and WE die...Angron thinks more SW die, but Lorgar questions it. 100 SW surround the dueling primarchs. Angron clearly beats Russ into the dirt. Would Angron have been able to end Russ before 100 bolters stop him? Would those 100 bolters be able to track Angron without hitting Russ? We don't know. What we do know is that Angron simply lets Russ crawl off and start a speech.


I didn't at all get the impression that the Night of the Wolf was "balanced" from my reading of Betrayer. If ADB says it was, then it was, but I don't think it's shown that way. Russ sacrificed lots of men to teach Angron a valuable lesson (which he succeeded in doing; that Angron is too much of a mental ruin to comprehend it is neither here nor there). Angron lost lots of men to... well, to no end at all. I've never really understood the whole 'a source of pride to both Legions, but both secretly feared they'd lost' quote (my Betrayer's on loan, so I can't get the exact quote). For the Wolves, okay; they achieved in getting Angron surrounded and giving Russ a live example of the point he was trying to make, but feared they hadn't as Angron hadn't taken any notice of it. That's fairly believable as a 'we won and lost' kind of deal. For the World Eaters? They might have thought they lost because they fear that Russ had a good point after all, but why would they think they'd won? Especially as the battle was a "balanced" affair. I can understand Angron thinking he'd won it - that's the point - but Kharn and some of the others seem to have their heads screwed on enough to understand that mutual carnage with the Wolves isn't any kind of victory. Did the World Eaters as a whole truly think that trading punches with the Wolves to no outcome was a victory? I find it hard to believe.



MontytheMighty said:


> No...the Lion slashes Curze's throat, and Curze enters a deep coma, might have died but Sevatar psychically pulls him back to the light


Otherwise known as Curze not dying. Also, Curze absolutely slashes the Lion's throat; the Lord of the First has the scar in Savage Weapons to prove it.


----------



## Angel of Blood

MontytheMighty said:


> You are dead wrong. ADB himself has described the Night of the Wolf as a "balanced" affair.
> 
> The Night of the Wolf was not an "overwhelming SW victory". I guarantee you that you have nothing to support that claim...and ADB himself disagrees with you.
> 
> Lorgar is agog that Angron misses Russ' point...Angron's men are incapable of intelligent, tactical thinking. Also, Lorgar wasn't there. He's simply expressing his opinion based on whatever conclusions he draws from Angron's simple account.


Well no. Lorgar does think the Wolves scored a victory. It's not just the lesson, he says:



> And yet, who won the battle?’
> ‘The World Eaters,’ Angron said without hesitation
> .
> Lorgar just stared at him for several seconds. ‘I appreciate that every living being must, by the nature of perception, understand and process life in a different way. But even for you, brother, this is achingly obtuse.’
> 
> ‘You’re saying the Wolves won.’ Angron looked more amused than confused.
> 
> ‘How can you not see it?’ Lorgar steepled his fingers, trying to rein in his own temper. ‘They won a victory worthy of engraving on their armour for all time. While you were glorying in your strength, Russ’s sons were loyal enough to come to him, to surround you both, to threaten your life while you stood at the vanguard of your own Legion. That may be the most comprehensive moment of outmanoeuvring in the history of the Legiones Astartes. It’s almost poetic in its elegance and emotional resonance. He proves his sons’ loyalty, while yours leave you to die. He proves the damage the Nails are doing to your Legion. He proves the tactical strength of taking an objective rather than fighting purely to kill. He spares your life in the hope you’ll see all of this, in a lesson it cost him heavily to teach you, and your reaction is to grin and claim yourself the victor.


It's very clear that Lorgar is of the opinion that Russ scored a massive victory and spared Angrons life. Whether you, ADB or Angron think otherwise, Lorgar doesn't, so yes, he does have something to support that claim.



MontytheMighty said:


> No...the Lion slashes Curze's throat, and Curze enters a deep coma, might have died but Sevatar psychically pulls him back to the light


Savage Weapons would seem to indicate otherwise actually. 

"When he spoke, his voice was the grind of thunder at the horizon – it could never be mistaken for human, and the pale scar across his tanned throat didn’t help humanise his tone."

This being after his fight with Curze.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Angel of Blood said:


> Well no. Lorgar does think the Wolves scored a victory. It's not just the lesson, he says:
> 
> It's very clear that Lorgar is of the opinion that Russ scored a massive victory and spared Angrons life. Whether you, ADB or Angron think otherwise, Lorgar doesn't, so yes, he does have something to support that claim.


Lorgar's opinion on the matter is no better than yours or mine. He has access to the same amount of info the reader has. Lorgar voices his opinion that Russ spared Angron...that does not mean Russ let Angron beat him into the dirt in front of the watching Rout. Major distinction. It means Russ didn't order his men to open fire on Angron after Angron let him crawl away.

As for it being a "massive victory", Lorgar more accurately describes it as an outmaneuvering, consistent with Russ' point that Angron's men are lost.



> Savage Weapons would seem to indicate otherwise actually.


Have you read Prince of Crows. The Lion definitively wins their 2nd fight. Curze enters a coma.

Anyway, here is ADB on Night of the Wolf:



> I'm not sure what good revisiting the Night of the Wolf would do, or what else it could show. You already have two primarchs, and the actions themselves, pointing out a clear lesson that Angron lost and looked silly by the standards of what they were trying to teach him. And you already have Angron considering he won the thing, too. It's about as balanced a situation as you'll ever see. You see what Russ intends. You see what Lorgar sees. You see how both Legions fight, and how both primarchs fight. You see how Angron perceives his Legion, and the fight itself. It's pretty comprehensive.
> . . .
> 3. In addition to that, balance-wise, you don't want one Legion to completely dominate the other. And in this case, it's realistic that while one gets the moral high ground and the military victory, the other wins the duel and couldn't care less about the lesson in regards to his worldview. But even that has layers, in the sense that... was Russ holding back? He sure seems to be, given that he was trying to teach a lesson. Was Angron holding back? Maybe, given what we know about his lethality, and the fact Russ is still alive. Did Russ lose the plot and go crazy with anger, by being baited? Sure, maybe. Or maybe Angron's not as clever as he thinks he is (Lorgar seems to continually suggest Angron is an idiot for thinking he got the upper hand on Russ) and Russ's natural savagery was obviously misinterpreted by a swaggering Angron.


----------



## Tyriks

MontytheMighty said:


> Anyway, here is ADB on Night of the Wolf:


That quote seems to be saying our ability to view it as readers is balanced, in that we get both sides laid out clearly, not that the outcome of the fight is balanced. He even says in that quote that Angron lost. In the second paragraph, he juxtaposes Angron winning the duel with the SW military victory. Calling it an outmaneuvering instead of a victory is also not really any different, as both mean that the Space Wolves, tactically speaking, had control of the situation.


----------



## Angel of Blood

MontytheMighty said:


> Lorgar's opinion on the matter is no better than yours or mine. He has access to the same amount of info the reader has. Lorgar voices his opinion that Russ spared Angron...that does not mean Russ let Angron beat him into the dirt in front of the watching Rout. Major distinction. It means Russ didn't order his men to open fire on Angron after Angron let him crawl away.
> 
> As for it being a "massive victory", Lorgar more accurately describes it as an outmaneuvering, consistent with Russ' point that Angron's men are lost.
> 
> 
> Have you read Prince of Crows. The Lion definitively wins their 2nd fight. Curze enters a coma.
> 
> Anyway, here is ADB on Night of the Wolf:


No. Lorgsr calls it a victory. He's utterly dumbfounded that Angron could think he had won. And whether you think Lorgars opinion is relevant or not, it still gives grounds for Midnight to believe Russ won, where as you said, guaranteed even, that he had nothing to base that on. 

More to the point, from the quote you provided, ADB is saying that Russ won the battle, lost the duel, but won the battle. 

And yes. I have read Prince of Crows, it's not relevant to what we are talking about, which is Curze cutting the Lions throat. Did you not read my quote from Savage Weapons or just ignore it? The Lion has a scar/faded wound of a cut across his neck.


----------



## Stephen74

If I recall correctly there was a discussion in one of the books between several of the Primarchs about who was the best. From that discussion it came across as though the Khan and Mortarion were the fore runners. I believe it was said that, in duels, the Khan was the best and I think Khan was saying something about how he knew everyones fighting style but Mortarion was a mystery and that made him the most dangerous.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Stephen74 said:


> If I recall correctly there was a discussion in one of the books between several of the Primarchs about who was the best. From that discussion it came across as though the Khan and Mortarion were the fore runners. I believe it was said that, in duels, the Khan was the best and I think Khan was saying something about how he knew everyones fighting style but Mortarion was a mystery and that made him the most dangerous.


Not quite.

Sanguinius, Fulgrim, the Khan and Mortarion are discussing it after Sanguinius mentions that people across the Imperium debate and bet on who would win. Fulgrim says he would happily fight the Khan, who believes he would win, as Fulgrim makes a show of his skills, letting everyone know how good he is, where as the Khan is an unknown, and he would win because he would fight to kill, where as Fulgrim would see it as a game, as he does everything. Mortarion then asks the Khan who would win out of the, to which the Khan doesn't know.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Tyriks said:


> That quote seems to be saying our ability to view it as readers is balanced, in that we get both sides laid out clearly, not that the outcome of the fight is balanced.


He says he didn't want one legion to completely dominate the other



> Calling it an outmaneuvering instead of a victory is also not really any different, as both mean that the Space Wolves, tactically speaking, had control of the situation.


Victory is a vague term. Outmaneuvering is much more precise (a tactical victory). Victory could imply a SW on WE massacre, which Night of the Wolf very clearly was not




Angel of Blood said:


> No. Lorgsr calls it a victory. He's utterly dumbfounded that Angron could think he had won. And whether you think Lorgars opinion is relevant or not, it still gives grounds for Midnight to believe Russ won, where as you said, guaranteed even, that he had nothing to base that on


Lorgar also qualifies what he means by "victory". It doesn't necessarily mean that the SW would have wiped out the WE



> More to the point, from the quote you provided, ADB is saying that Russ won the battle, lost the duel, but won the battle.


Won a tactical victory by surrounding the enemy primarch. Does not necessarily mean the WE were doomed.

ADB also says that Russ did not necessarily hold back (though possible) and that Angron was not necessarily trying to kill Russ (possible as well...but I doubt it)



Angel of Blood said:


> And yes. I have read Prince of Crows, it's not relevant to what we are talking about, which is Curze cutting the Lions throat. Did you not read my quote from Savage Weapons or just ignore it? The Lion has a scar/faded wound of a cut across his neck.


By "cut" you mean "leave any sort of cut". Clearly the Lion was not bleeding to death in Savage Weapons. He was being choked more than anything else

When the Lion slashed open Curze's throat in Round 2, the latter went into a coma. I just find it strange to mention how Curze cut the Lion's throat (when the cut itself was not even close to life threatening and the one inflicted by the Lion clearly was)


----------



## Tyriks

MontytheMighty said:


> He says he didn't want one legion to completely dominate the other


Right, which is why Angron's legion isn't exterminated. You can win, unambiguously, without "completely dominating." Seems like that's what ADB was getting at. 



> Victory is a vague term. Outmaneuvering is much more precise (a tactical victory). Victory could imply a SW on WE massacre, which Night of the Wolf very clearly was not


Victory could mean that, but that doesn't mean it has to. That also doesn't mean that this isn't a victory just because it could have been a more extreme victory.


----------



## Angel of Blood

MontytheMighty said:


> By "cut" you mean "leave any sort of cut". Clearly the Lion was not bleeding to death in Savage Weapons. He was being choked more than anything else
> 
> When the Lion slashed open Curze's throat in Round 2, the latter went into a coma. I just find it strange to mention how Curze cut the Lion's throat (when the cut itself was not even close to life threatening and the one inflicted by the Lion clearly was)


So? He still cut his throat, and enough to leave a mark on a Primarch days later. But again, so? It's irrelevant how life threatening the cut was, it's still a cut, and you were therefore wrong when you erroneously corrected the earlier post to say Curze hadn't done so.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Trying to rank the Primarchs is a pretty pointless exercise. They all have their strengths and weaknesses, be it strength, speed, skill, ferocity, toughness, or psychic abilities. If conditions were perfect for a specific primarch, he should be well able to hold his own against any of the others. It's like a game of rockpaperscissors. Their skills may suit fighting one particular brother, but prove a hindrance fighting another.


----------



## theurge33

Replace "Jerusalem" with "ranking primarchs"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6aPgA5549g


----------



## MidnightSun

MontytheMighty said:


> Victory is a vague term. Outmaneuvering is much more precise (a tactical victory). Victory could imply a SW on WE massacre, which Night of the Wolf very clearly was not
> 
> 
> 
> Lorgar also qualifies what he means by "victory". It doesn't necessarily mean that the SW would have wiped out the WE
> 
> 
> 
> Won a tactical victory by surrounding the enemy primarch. Does not necessarily mean the WE were doomed.


Since when did I or anyone else say that the Space Wolves crushed the World Eaters and murdered every last man jack of them? I said that Russ beat Angron in battle, which he did. If it makes you feel better, he won a tactical victory over him. Okay, maybe he didn't win a splangdoodle bongdongle victory over him. We can sit here and argue about whether by 'victory' I included 'philosphical victory', 'pissing contest victory' or 'forum argument victory' in Russ' victory during the Night of the Wolf, but I'll save the time and tell you now that I meant a military/tactical/strategic victory, which Russ achieved.


----------



## Emonomy

Just finished the e-Book where Curze and Sanguinius have their little chat.

Overall I enjoyed the read but I must say the subject of these two going toe to toe has been bugging me since reading it. 




Firstly I am a BA fan, and maybe my expectations were a little biased toward the Angel, but I didn't expect to see an inconclusive draw. Curze has to be my second favorite, always has been, so it's not like I'm consciously trying to be butthurt over this. But maybe I am.

I kinda get that Sanguinius can be quite modest and have moments of self doubt, ergo why he thought he might not walk away from the fight. But for the most in combat Sang, Horus and Angron probably are the top tier according to many of the comments made in the HH series so far.

After NH had been causing chaos in UE I expected him to get a little bit of a pasting by Sang to balance things out, currently he is just running circles round everyone. Also, NH boasts that he is clearly the better man at arms. 
Do you guys think the NH meant what he was saying here? 
do people think he was just goading? was deluded? 
or do you think this comes from the authors self confessed pre-dispostion to the Night Lords? 
I'm not having a go at Guy Haley here, I think the book was great and I have already shown that I may be biased myself on this one.

NH has been caught and injured by other primarchs such as the Lion, nearly killed in fact, and currently he is just running circles round everyone. I should be happy seeing as he's my second favorite, but instead it's annoying me a little bit. Being annoyed, is annoying me. Jeez. I didn't realise I was such a fanboy for the Angel. It must be his good looks.

As far as I recall it's the first book where we actually are made aware Sang is seeing his death, and whilst I knew NH had a bit of precognition of the ultimate future, I didn't realise he was at this level of dodging all the other primarchs blows like Neo out the matrix. 

I thought the conversation between the two was great and gave depth to the characters, hope vs despair, but NH's boasts have got a little under my skin and I just feel he's starting to look a bit too invincible and makes it harder to really now accept Sang is the beast we are led to believe.

PS at the end I can understand why he didn't strike him down, I can also see why people feel he should have just cut NH's head off.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Emonomy said:


> Just finished the e-Book where Curze and Sanguinius have their little chat.
> 
> Overall I enjoyed the read but I must say the subject of these two going toe to toe has been bugging me since reading it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Firstly I am a BA fan, and maybe my expectations were a little biased toward the Angel, but I didn't expect to see an inconclusive draw. Curze has to be my second favorite, always has been, so it's not like I'm consciously trying to be butthurt over this. But maybe I am.
> 
> I kinda get that Sanguinius can be quite modest and have moments of self doubt, ergo why he thought he might not walk away from the fight. But for the most in combat Sang, Horus and Angron probably are the top tier according to many of the comments made in the HH series so far.
> 
> After NH had been causing chaos in UE I expected him to get a little bit of a pasting by Sang to balance things out, currently he is just running circles round everyone. Also, NH boasts that he is clearly the better man at arms.
> Do you guys think the NH meant what he was saying here? Yes
> do people think he was just goading? was deluded? I think that is what he believes, and is probably right to. He gives good evidence to prove it, considering he has come to blows with 6 other primarchs now (Dorn, Corax, Vulkan, the Lion, Girlyman, and Sang), and walked away every time.
> or do you think this comes from the authors self confessed pre-dispostion to the Night Lords?
> I'm not having a go at Guy Haley here, I think the book was great and I have already shown that I may be biased myself on this one. I was surprised how much I enjoyed this book as well. I hope Haley gets a shot at something with a point to it in future.
> 
> NH has been caught and injured by other primarchs such as the Lion, nearly killed in fact, and currently he is just running circles round everyone. I should be happy seeing as he's my second favorite, but instead it's annoying me a little bit. Being annoyed, is annoying me. Jeez. I didn't realise I was such a fanboy for the Angel. It must be his good looks.
> 
> As far as I recall it's the first book where we actually are made aware Sang is seeing his death, and whilst I knew NH had a bit of precognition of the ultimate future, I didn't realise he was at this level of dodging all the other primarchs blows like Neo out the matrix. Part of the reason Curze is so bat-shit crazy is that he has had a crystal clear image of his own death since he was a child. This particular exchange does make him look even more OP than previously, but if he can see his own death decades into the future, seeing what's going to happen in his immediate future shouldn't prove too big a deal. Having the two most precognitive primarchs going toe to toe seemed a little contrived, but it worked. They really played well as two sides of the same coin.
> 
> I thought the conversation between the two was great and gave depth to the characters, hope vs despair, but NH's boasts have got a little under my skin and I just feel he's starting to look a bit too invincible and makes it harder to really now accept Sang is the beast we are led to believe. See my previous comment. It didn't come across as boasting to me, just a stating of fact. At that point he'd faced 5 of his brothers and survived.
> 
> PS at the end I can understand why he didn't strike him down, I can also see why people feel he should have just cut NH's head off. I did find Sang's attachment to Azkaellon hindering his judgement when fighting Curze a bit of a stretch. Yes, he loves his sons possibly more than any of his brothers, but choosing to save one instead of killing his lunatic dark side just didn't wash with me.


Okay, after writing this post, I'm going to change my tune from my previous post, and say that all the evidence would indicate that up to this point in the series NH is the undoubted most baddest ass of all the primarchs. Whether or not you think he has been portrayed as OP in the series, fighting 6 of his brothers and walking away relatively unscathed is fairly undeniable proof.


----------



## Emonomy

Thanks for the reply Khorne's fist!

I'm glad Curze has had a good account of himself in the novels and it's safe to say his record speaks for itself at that point. His harassing in UE was great to read and him turning up draped over Sanguinius' throne was also decent. 

Maybe he's not OP anyway, he's not killed another Primarch per se, as many people have commented, the battles are written to fit the story and each Primarch has an advantage in certain situations, so trying to match them up in a linear way isn't really all that productive. I guess for Curze (for a long time) and maybe Sang (increasingly more so) have the benefit of knowing that what they throw themselves into now won't result in their deaths due to long distance and immediate precognition. (Arguably does this make them both more or actually less brave, knowing they can't die until XYZ).

I guess I just needed to get it off my chest given my initial expectations of how that match up would go, and no doubt Sang is going to get more daemon bashing airtime in the next phase of the Heresy (especially the Siege of Terra)


----------



## Angel of Blood

Meh. I'm getting pretty sick of Curze now.


----------



## Brobaddon

Angron. Angron can beat pretty much all primarchs one on one. Curze shouldn't be an exception either.


----------



## piemelke

Angel of Blood said:


> Meh. I'm getting pretty sick of Curze now.


I second that


----------



## DelvarusThePitFighter

piemelke said:


> I second that


 I third that


----------



## DelvarusThePitFighter

Brobaddon said:


> Angron. Angron can beat pretty much all primarchs one on one. Curze shouldn't be an exception either.


Don't get me wrong I LOOOOOVE angry ronald but all of the others - hmmm that's pushing it - but yes, personally I believe he would be more than a match for Curze


----------



## Doom wolf

The problem with Kurze is that the guy isn't all there and it seems to affect his ability to fight. At his best, yeah, he's frightning as seen in The unremembered empire where he stand against two primarch. (Yet, he doesn't fight fair...) 

At his absolute worst ? Well, a Callidus assassin killed him. (Yeah, I know he wanted to make a point, but seriously, he was quite mad and utterly depressive.)

So I will take him on his "average" day and list only those who could win over him with certainty, on my POV, of course.

Angron is a killing machine, I think he could best any primarch in one-on-one. Including Kurze. He would go only more and more crazy by the Kurze trick, ending in him killing in fountain of gore, Kratos- style.

Corax and Kurze would have a very balanced combat, each one using surprise attack and never fighting fair. The Kurze's ability to take a pychological could give him an edge, tought, if he don't get surprised by Corax. 

Guilliman would loose the first time, maybe the second, and would never loose again. Exactly like he did against Corax. But if Guilliman has the initiative... well we remember all Tsalguasa.

The Khan would have an edge, because he's unscrutable, and I doubt that Kurze could read him. He's also swift as hell, which give him quite a reaction advantage. I think where the Lion would have give one sneaky strike, he would have striked twice, or even three.

Horus... well, he's Horus. I think he would have took Kurze, but it would be a brutal messy things. But end of the day, the sheer agression of Horus would give him the victory.

Leman Russ would won, because he's just a ruthless bastard who doesn't let his feelings get in his way, but it would cost him much.

The others either loose or are too much uncertainty to see a clear winner.


----------



## Brobaddon

> Don't get me wrong I LOOOOOVE angry ronald but all of the others - hmmm that's pushing it - but yes, personally I believe he would be more than a match for Curze


My argument comes from the fact that Angron has been pretty much venerated/cosnidered the ultime fighter among the primarchs, which afterall makes sense since he was a gladiator ever since his childhood. 

Both Lorgar and Argel tal in " _Betraye_r " state that Angron is unmatched in combat, and Lorgar himself believes that no one could best enraged Sanguinis save for Horus and Angron himself. Couple that with Corax's praise and his feats of beating Leman and Guilliman, it's easy to see why Angron ranks in top three easily. 

Where other primarchs are generals and lords first, Angron is a weapon in itself. _Betrayer _explains how Angron was literally robbed of everything but his martial prowess. 

Now im not saying Angron couldn't lose to other Primarchs in certain circumstances, since a battles' conditions certainly doesn't always goes in one's favour, but in a clear, fair one on one fight I don't see him losing to anyone, even Horus.

However, if you put Angron in a pure brute strength contest, I think no matter how much he got enraged, he prolly wouldn't best Vulkan. 

Or if you landed Alpharius/Omegon/ or Corax and Angron in a jungle and told them to locate and eliminate each other. I think under those conditions Alpharius's/Omegon's resourcefullness and Corax's stealth would prevail over Angron's mindless drive to stop forward.

Curze is a dirty street fighter type, and once Angron starts to think he won and turned his back on him, he'd find his chest pierced by a pair of claws, but in a fair fight, Curze would get torn to shreds.


----------



## alt-f4

In pure melee, like in a plain light arena, I'm still pretty sure that many Primarchs beat up Curze. If Curze has the time to prepare an ambush in a shadowy environment, that's quite different.

(By the way, I have read the fight between the Khan and Mortarion. At the end of it, just before Mortarion's departure, it is said - into the French version at least - that the Khan is so exhausted that he could only give one last strike with his sword. Mortarion took damages, more than the Khan, but was still standing ... it's more a draw, actually, even a short win by the Khan since Mortarion decided to leave. Sorry about that)


----------



## Doom wolf

Brobaddon said:


> Curze is a dirty street fighter type, and once Angron starts to think he won and turned his back on him, he'd find his chest pierced by a pair of claws, but in a fair fight, Curze would get torn to shreds.


I agree, but I don't think Angron would turn his back on Kurze, not even after thinking he's winning. The poor bastard captain of the Ultramarines in _Betrayer_ didn't go easy, it's implied he died in agony and that Angron didn't stop untill the ultramarine died and the poor guy didn't even caused a real threath against the primarch.


----------



## Doom wolf

Brobaddon said:


> Curze is a dirty street fighter type, and once Angron starts to think he won and turned his back on him, he'd find his chest pierced by a pair of claws, but in a fair fight, Curze would get torn to shreds.


I agree, but I don't think Angron would turn his back on Kurze, not even after thinking he's winning. The poor bastard captain of the Ultramarines in _Betrayer_ didn't go easy, it's implied he died in agony and that Angron didn't stop untill the ultramarine died and the poor guy didn't even caused a real threath against the primarch.


----------



## MontytheMighty

alt-f4 said:


> In pure melee, like in a plain light arena, I'm still pretty sure that many Primarchs beat up Curze. If Curze has the time to prepare an ambush in a shadowy environment, that's quite different.
> 
> (By the way, I have read the fight between the Khan and Mortarion. At the end of it, just before Mortarion's departure, it is said - into the French version at least - that the Khan is so exhausted that he could only give one last strike with his sword. Mortarion took damages, more than the Khan, but was still standing ... it's more a draw, actually, even a short win by the Khan since Mortarion decided to leave. Sorry about that)


Khan vs. Morty is a draw IMO

The final strike of the Khan is hinted to be a 50/50 do or die exchange


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## Mellow_

I'm in agreement that Angron is the best one on one fighter out of all of them. It's just what he does. 

I just don't understand that Kurze can fight Sanguinius and although both can essentially see the future no one wins whereas The Lion can fight him and cause significant damage (without any form of preconception). How is that even possible if your opponent can see what happens before it happens?


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## Brobaddon

In what novel does Kurze " beat " Sanguinish or whatever is implied?


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## Squire

I feel like during the Great Crusade Angron, Horus and Sanguinius are in a class of their own, but daemon Angron and ascended Horus probably move ahead of Sanguinus. I wonder where daemon prince Fulgrim ranks? He was already formidable, and if a daemon primarch is boosted as much as a chaos lord to daemon prince ascension it seems likely Fulgrim could defeat Sanguinius

Daemon Fulgrim also beats Kurze as far as I'm concerned



Brobaddon said:


> In what novel does Kurze " beat " Sanguinish or whatever is implied?


In no novel. In Pharos...



They fight to a stalemate but Sanguinius is without his armour and has a default power sword, and it seemed like more of a duel than a fight to the death.


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