# Tau Close Combat Battle Suits



## Insanity (Oct 25, 2011)

I know this thread has probably been done a couple of times before, but i was just wondering what the odds of the Tau Empire creating a close combat style battle suit would be?

Or perhaps not the Empire it self, but Farsight's break away faction, Farsight has seen the need for close combat, so would it not make sense for his faction to produce some kind of close combat weaponry?

Even though it goes against Tau nature I would love it if GW incorporated a close combat suit into the next Tau update. I've even considered finding a couple of Farsight's Dawn Blades and creating my own out of a XV-8, although obviously not using them as Dawn Blades and just some sort of power weapon equivalent. Then give him a Fail-safe detonator for when he goes down.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

I don't know anything about Tau rules in 40k, but to my understanding they are exceptional at ranged combat. Seems logical to me that there is a reason they do not have close-combat specialists, because their ranged is very good. By incorporating close-combat it may upset the precarious balance, if it exists.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

They hate close combat and see it as savage and disdainful.
they also suck at it, they're a lot weaker than even an average human and their eyes cant follow the movements, their strongest (firecast) is a little weaker than an average human,they have no psychic power and so it could be said they are at a disadvantage when fighting psykers, they have no training in close combat.

in short they probably wouldnt get it OP.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

I always thought the Tau were Warp-Blind, meaning that the Dark Gods do not even truly register their existance and probably only know about it via their slaves of darkness (CSM, Heretics, ect, ect).


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

If battlesuits could get a simple power weapon upgrade just to give them something, that would be cool, power weapons and the shield would be allot of fun to run around with.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

BlackGuard said:


> I always thought the Tau were Warp-Blind, meaning that the Dark Gods do not even truly register their existance and probably only know about it via their slaves of darkness (CSM, Heretics, ect, ect).


The tau don't have a presence in the warp, they also have a warp tear open near their home world. They see what the warp does and they don't want any part of it.

Also they do have the kroot they don't need close combat weapons.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> The tau don't have a presence in the warp


It is a common mistake but they actually do, just a very minor one:

_"...their minds barely registering in the warp at all."_ - _Codex: Tau Empire, p. 6._


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

More so than their physical limitations the Tau view warfare as a form of hunting. Their two central philosophies of warfare are hunting techniques. Hunters prefer to kill their target from a distance rather than risk getting mauled by their prey up close.

That being said, the Tau have developed experimental battlesuits designed to fight at a closer range, XV9 Hazard Close Support Armor series. While these suits do not mount swords or other close quarters weapons (simply because the Tau do not use such weapons) several variants mount Tau weapons that are better suited in close range such as two pairs of twin-linked burst cannons.

You can find these suits here.

Oh and the shield generators that XV8s and XV9s take the physical form of shields on the arms of their battlesuits so technically they can be equipped with shields.

Also it's never been quite confirmed what exactly the Damocles Gulf is. It could be some form of Warp Storm or Rift or it could be some other celestial anomaly.


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

CC Crisis Suits would be fun, and look very cool. Think: Gundam!

But from what i know of them it seems to be very much against their entire philosophy and pretty much ingrained into the majority. The minority being Farsight and his Enclave.

Their physically frail natural form is the for the most part the entire reason the Tau took up the 'Superior Firepower' thing in the first place. They rely on their ranged weapons to offset their weak bodies and such equipment as Sensors/Sensor Arrays to offset their poor eyesight e.t.c.

Alice


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Isn't that what the Kroot are for? Honest question .


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## Insanity (Oct 25, 2011)

@ Davidicus, yeah kind of, but they are just kind of a thin wall between the enemy and you.

And everyone keeps mentioning the physical nature of the Tau, but I'm talk Battlesuits, the amount of physical strength does not matter.

And I'm not really talking about the Tau Empire, I'm talking about Farsight's Enclave, Farsight has always been in favor of using close combat despite seeing the value of range and has seen the need to use it.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Insanity72 said:


> And everyone keeps mentioning the physical nature of the Tau, but I'm talk Battlesuits, the amount of physical strength does not matter.
> 
> And I'm not really talking about the Tau Empire, I'm talking about Farsight's Enclave, Farsight has always been in favor of using close combat despite seeing the value of range and has seen the need to use it.


It's more than a philosophical decision, the Tau simply aren't suited to close combat.

Compared to humans, they have poor eyesight, slower reactions speeds, and no appreciable difference in strength or ability to sustain damage.

The Tau simply don't have the ability nor numbers to field a sizable close combat contingent. 

That's why they rely on their auxiliaries to fill in the gaps. Why force Tau into roles unsuited for them when Kroot can do the job better?


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

The tau easily have the ability, technology improves all there weaknesses and short comings, that's the basic tau theme.

Numbers isn't the biggest issue, the farsight enclaves must get in combat allot, with probably less numbers.

And some tau factions may not use auxiliaries, or have no access to them


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

Sakura_ninja said:


> The tau easily have the ability, technology improves all there weaknesses and short comings, that's the basic tau theme.
> 
> Numbers isn't the biggest issue, the farsight enclaves must get in combat allot, with probably less numbers.
> 
> And some tau factions may not use auxiliaries, or have no access to them


however no amount of technology is going to increase your reaction times or clumsyness


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

The physical limitations of the Tau have less effect inside a battlesuit (which is what we are talking about here) where they have a number systems that can improve their capabilities. And again the truth of why they do not use melee or close combat weapons period is their mindset. They view warfare as a form of hunting, not as other races view war. To them the art of war is the art of hunting. And to put it bluntly most hunters don't want to risk getting mauled by their prey by getting up close to them.

That's why the Tau favor mobility and range when fighting. Plus in terms of ranged fighting, they are among the best in the game. To make them better in CC would kind of unbalance them. Besides the Kroot and Vespid make up for their weakness in that field.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

Farsights enclave surely make use of a CC Crisis suite, with twin power weapons and maybe some short range fire arm. Burst pistol, R12 S5 Ap6 Pistol 2? Some kind of pistol class flamer. 

They would still have fewer attacks, go last for most of the time but with the extra strength and protection from the crisis suite they would make a good match against some. 

They do not have any access to Kroot or Vespids so to balance this only an army containing Commander Farsight could include the CC crisis suite.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Yes if GW decides to add the Farsight Enclaves. GW has been very tight lipped about Farsight and the Enclaves. It seems to be one of the things GW has kept in the dark so that we fans can create our own ideas and armies about. In fact I remember that old GW, back when they contained fluff and conversion articles, had an article on Farsight and his possible allegiances as well as conversion suggestions to his model based on those allegiances. In fact there have been many Farsight Enclave conversions out there as a result of this as well as I'm sure a number of fan-made rules.

Of course at the same time they've sent the Ethereal hero, Aun'shi as part of an expedition to the Enclaves so they have left it open to the possibility of Farsight's return or rather his Enclaves as he would have longed died of old age at this point. Tau have very short lifespans, I think it's either 20 or 40 years is the length of their natural lifespan. We'll just have to wait for the next Tau release to see if we'll get any answers. Though given the persistent rumors it sounds more likely we'll see the Demiurg being the big new addition to the forces of the Tau Empire rather than the return of the Enclaves.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Honest question: Do Tau have power weapons?

It seems that the physical inability and philosophical unwillingness of the Tau to engage in close combat has left them with a technological gap there as well. As I understand it Farsights Enclave exists separate from the rest of the castes (most importantly the scientific ones), meaning that while they might have an increased need or appreciation for close-combat gear they wouldn't necessarily have the ability to get any. Plus in the period where they were getting themselves up to speed on how to fight in that manner (swinging a sword isn't the same motion as firing a gun, particularly in a battlesuit) they would lose a lot of men. At this point the other races have such a drastic head start in the art of bashing in each others heads that the Tau are better off not bothering.

And for all the added toughness of the battlesuits, they would have some severe limitations in hth. First, I am not certain that the sensors are sufficient to over come the Tau's naturally weak depth perception and hand-eye co-ordination (both more important in hth) and they certainly can't overcome the inherent clumsiness. Second, from the look of the models someone in a battlesuit will have a hard time keeping track of a large number of targets located close to themselves (the head is quite high, and seems to have limited peripheral vision). Finally, I'm not actually sure how the suits are controlled but as the pilot sits entirely in the chest I don't think he's got room for much movement, which would make close-combat actions awkward and quite unintuitive.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Well actually the XV8 Crisis Battlesuits can equipped with a number of systems that boost the users abilities, Multi-tracker, Target lock, Targeting Array. First two of which are available as hard-wired systems which take the form of cybernetic upgrades, helmet systems or warrior jewelery for both battlesuit pilots and infantry. Additionally if you look closely at the Crisis models and artwork you'll notice they have several groups of small circles on the upper torso's of the suits, circles that look akin to the various eyepieces of drones, helmets, battlesuit heads and additional sensor systems. To me it looks like the head houses the main camera systems of the suit but they have additional ones mounted in the torso. So it's safe to say that the Crisis Battlesuits would not have a problem with being able to see things. Even Fire Warriors with those hard-wired systems would function at a greater than normal ability. Additionally if they have these cybernetic upgrades it wouldn't be that much of a stretch for them to able to design devices or systems to aid in HTH fighting. Perhaps given Farsight's beliefs in 'shortening the reach' of the Fire Warriors led to him having the Earth Caste members of the Enclaves to develop systems to aid them in that regard. If we do see the return of the Farsight Enclaves in the next Codex maybe they'll have access to such special hard-wired systems.

As to how the Battlesuits, beyond the Stealthsuits and the XV22, are control is something that hasn't exactly been described, at least by my knowledge. Which is probably due to the lack of fluff on the Tau outside of the Rulebooks. Really wish they'd get some love from the Black Library. However given the artwork of Crisis Battlesuits in action I have to say that they appear more agile and maneuverable than you're making them sound.


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## HOGGLORD (Jan 25, 2012)

They could design some kind of hull breaching suit, with some kind of plasma buzzsaw thing in conjunction with a fusion blaster, giving them some kind of lesser chainfist. like a power weapon with 2D6 armour pen.
I never really liked the fluff of a designed CC suit, but a suit that does another job but can work in CC appeals to me.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Given the nature of the meat grinder that is the 40k universe, you'd think the Tau would have to come up with something a little better than some shooty mechs. Maybe some HUGE shooty mechs, ones that strode around the battlefield like gods of war, decimating anything in their way... Now where could they find the inspiration for that kind of thing? :wink:


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

The problem is with Titans is that they are slow and ponderous, ill-suited for mobile fighting style of the Tau. That's why their Titan equivalent is the Manta, a large craft armed to the heaviest Tau weapons beyond those that are mounted on warships and is capable of carrying an entire Hunter Cadre into battle. Additionally they have a variant of the Tiger Shark fighter-bomber that carries the Manta's railguns and was designed solely to deal with Titans and Super-Heavies. So why should they try to build Titans of their own when they already have suitable counters to them and especially when one would not fit well in their combat doctrines?


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Well actually the XV8 Crisis Battlesuits can equipped with a number of systems that boost the users abilities, Multi-tracker, Target lock, Targeting Array. First two of which are available as hard-wired systems which take the form of cybernetic upgrades, helmet systems or warrior jewelery for both battlesuit pilots and infantry. Additionally if you look closely at the Crisis models and artwork you'll notice they have several groups of small circles on the upper torso's of the suits, circles that look akin to the various eyepieces of drones, helmets, battlesuit heads and additional sensor systems. To me it looks like the head houses the main camera systems of the suit but they have additional ones mounted in the torso. So it's safe to say that the Crisis Battlesuits would not have a problem with being able to see things. Even Fire Warriors with those hard-wired systems would function at a greater than normal ability. Additionally if they have these cybernetic upgrades it wouldn't be that much of a stretch for them to able to design devices or systems to aid in HTH fighting. Perhaps given Farsight's beliefs in 'shortening the reach' of the Fire Warriors led to him having the Earth Caste members of the Enclaves to develop systems to aid them in that regard. If we do see the return of the Farsight Enclaves in the next Codex maybe they'll have access to such special hard-wired systems.





MEQinc said:


> And for all the added toughness of the battlesuits, they would have some severe limitations in hth. First, I am not certain that the sensors are sufficient to over come the Tau's naturally weak depth perception and hand-eye co-ordination (both more important in hth) and they certainly can't overcome the inherent clumsiness. Second, from the look of the models someone in a battlesuit will have a hard time keeping track of a large number of targets located close to themselves (the head is quite high, and seems to have limited peripheral vision). Finally, I'm not actually sure how the suits are controlled but as the pilot sits entirely in the chest I don't think he's got room for much movement, which would make close-combat actions awkward and quite unintuitive.


If i recall correctly, there is nothing in any Tau Fluff that proves or disproves either of these points. No description has been given of the Tau's ability in close combat if it actually came to it nor is there an accurate description of just what each and every piece of equipment does for the Fire Warrior inside the Crisis Suit.

I could be wrong however as i have not read my Tau Codex in several years. I'm not even sure i know where it is :laugh:

If the technology inside a Crisis Suit can actually offset each of the short-comings of a Fire Warrior e.g. Hand/Eye Co-ordination, Depth Perception, Physical Frailty e.t.c they may just be able to hold their own in a Close Combat situation.

Farsight's entry in the Tau Codex does not explain how he is so good in Close Combat, only that he is and his statline shows this, as he has WS5. The only explanation close to it is that he comes from a world famous for aggressiveness in its Fire Caste. His Crisis Suit equipment is also standard, nothing special that might explain how he can fight up close and personal.

May be then; This is a clue that the systems in a Crisis Suit can in fact compensate for the natural weaknesses of the Tau.

It could also just be an oversight on GW's part. Which would not be a Suprise.

Alice


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Akatsuki13 said:


> The problem is with Titans is that they are slow and ponderous, ill-suited for mobile fighting style of the Tau. That's why their Titan equivalent is the Manta, a large craft armed to the heaviest Tau weapons beyond those that are mounted on warships and is capable of carrying an entire Hunter Cadre into battle. Additionally they have a variant of the Tiger Shark fighter-bomber that carries the Manta's railguns and was designed solely to deal with Titans and Super-Heavies. So why should they try to build Titans of their own when they already have suitable counters to them and especially when one would not fit well in their combat doctrines?


Because their combat doctrine sucks? They've gotten this far because they aren't spread out and they don't have to deal with Chaos. That may change soon. Yes, they survived a Crusade, but that's because the Imperium generally regarded the Tau as inferior and screwed the whole thing up just by being overconfident. It was a small crusade at that, nothing at all compared to what the Imperium could throw at them now that they know they aren't pushovers. The Tau would be ground down eventually, as has been pointed out previously, they lack the numbers of the Imperium to fight a war of attrition. Mobile warfare is cool and all, but you eventually run out of places to run in 40k. Hell, I can't even find mention of any battle the Tau actually won against the Imperium(though I'm sure there are some). Seems they usually only win when _allied_ with the Imperium.


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

SoulGazer said:


> Hell, I can't even find mention of any battle the Tau actually won against the Imperium. They usually only win when _allied_ with the Imperium.


Wars Of The Third Sphere - Page 15 - Tau Codex.

Alice


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

SGMAlice said:


> War's Of The Third Sphere - Page 15 - Tau Codex.
> 
> Alice


Just read 'em. So they do win, but again, not against any sort of overwhelming force. The Imperium is just too busy, but if they weren't, the Tau would be exterminated. 40k is all about attrition, and the Tau don't have the numbers. They need some sort of heavy unit that can take a beating, hold its ground, and allow for some breathing room. Luckily though, the latest fluff rumors say they're allied with the Space Marines, so that solves that problem if it's true.


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

SoulGazer said:


> Just read 'em. So they do win, but again, not against any sort of overwhelming force. The Imperium is just too busy, but if they weren't, the Tau would be exterminated. 40k is all about attrition, and the Tau don't have the numbers. They need some sort of heavy unit that can take a beating, hold its ground, and allow for some breathing room. Luckily though, the latest fluff rumors say they're allied with the Space Marines, so that solves that problem if it's true.


Not true:



Tau Codex - Page 15 - Paragraph 4 said:


> Buoyed by her initial successes, Shadowsun led her armies deeper into Imperial Space, where she encountered far greater resistance.Shadowsun saw that to over extend her forces would lead to a lethal depletion in the momentum of her attack. Instead of crashing headlong into the Imperium's defences, she split her fleet and scattered it on more than a dozen headings. Each made a seried of devastsing hit and run attacksagainst targets that recieved no warning, and against which the Imperium could mount no effective counter.
> 
> At length, the Imperium settled into a static defense of a handful of key worlds. Shadowsun exploited this strategy by marshalling her forces once more and launching an all out attack against a single cluster of Imperial worlds, overrunning each and claiming them for all time for the glory of the Tau Empire.
> 
> These worlds are now flourishing Sept's, and have been so heavily fortified that only a full scale assault is likely to restore them to Imperial control.


That doesn't sound like avoidance of a big fight, they actively attacked, fought and won many Imperial worlds that were heavily fortified and ready for them to come.

The Tau are not as weak as many players seem to think.

Alice


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

SGMAlice said:


> That doesn't sound like avoidance of a big fight, they actively attacked, fought and won many Imperial worlds that were heavily fortified and ready for them to come.
> 
> The Tau are not as weak as many players seem to think.
> 
> Alice


The Imperial forces had spread out their defenses trying to cover everything because they didn't have the means to effectively counter-attack. This allowed the Tau to attack a particular series of the worlds which, while defended, did not have the overwhelming superiority of strength that the Imperium favors. Classic military strategy of divide and conquer. I am not implying that the Tau are stupid, nor that they are somehow inferior to the Imperium on even-based numbers. I am saying, however, that if the Tau were to meet with the sort of force normally reserved for putting down a Black Crusade, they would be annihilated in short order.

After all those hit-and-run attacks, the Tau manage to take a single cluster of worlds which was probably hardly even noticed by the Imperium at large. The Imperium is busy fighting the entire galaxy and the Tau are considered a very minor threat, all things considered. They are strong enough to make gains while not under great galactic scrutiny, which is no small feat by any means, but hardly makes them a galactic power in any sense of the word.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Well actually the XV8 Crisis Battlesuits can equipped with a number of systems that boost the users abilities, Multi-tracker, Target lock, Targeting Array. First two of which are available as hard-wired systems which take the form of cybernetic upgrades, helmet systems or warrior jewelery for both battlesuit pilots and infantry.


Like I said, I am simply not certain that these systems will be fully able to compensate. Targeting multiple things at range, and keeping track of those things, is not the same as doing so up close. While I understand that systems capable of doing one will be useful for the second I am simply not certain that they will be as useful. 

Also, there's the problem of immersion. Video games are not the same as real life, how one receives and processes information from a screen is not the same as how one does so first hand. For the most part this can be easily compensated for at range, however once things get close it becomes far harder to account for. Instincts don't respond in the same way so the natural inclination to dodge away becomes downplayed and sluggish, which is something the Tau already suffer from.



> Additionally if you look closely at the Crisis models and artwork you'll notice they have several groups of small circles on the upper torso's of the suits, circles that look akin to the various eyepieces of drones, helmets, battlesuit heads and additional sensor systems. To me it looks like the head houses the main camera systems of the suit but they have additional ones mounted in the torso.


Fair enough, I make no claims to being an expert on Tau fluff. I was just going off the models.



SoulGazer said:


> Because their combat doctrine sucks? The Tau would be ground down eventually, as has been pointed out previously, they lack the numbers of the Imperium to fight a war of attrition. Mobile warfare is cool and all, but you eventually run out of places to run in 40k.


There is nothing inherently wrong with the Tau combat doctrine, nor has it proved ineffective against the Imperium. Indeed I would argue that the hit-and-run style of the Tau is one of the primary reasons for their success (in addition to their generally higher tech base and limited size). The Tau cannot hope to defeat the Imperium in a grind fest, very few races can. If the Tau had or adopted a stand-and-fight style the Imperium would wash over them easily. The Imperium's primary strength is numbers, its primary weakness is mobilizing them. By using their mobility the Tau capitalize on the Imperium's weakness and negate its strength. True, they will eventually run out of space and be forced to fight, and when they do they will be crushed, but that's not a poor reflection on their combat doctrine it is simply a fact of the *vast* differences in the size of the respective empires. There is not a force in this galaxy that can stand against the combined might of the Imperium. Mobile warfare is the only way to deal with an enemy that outnumbers you so drastically.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> There is nothing inherently wrong with the Tau combat doctrine, nor has it proved ineffective against the Imperium.


True enough. I suppose I should have put that into the context of "sucks against anything in 40k that really really wants them dead." Which, also granted, would probably only be the Imperium, Chaos, maybe the Crons eventually if they don't enslave them. Orks are random and probably don't specifically hate the Tau, and the main Nid Hivefleets are being slowed/stopped by the Imperium so that the full force doesn't hit the Tau. So I suppose not much is going to get around to throwing that kind of weight onto the Tau any time soon. And even if they do, you know, common enemies and all that will probably give the Tau a helping hand in the form of Imperial or Eldar allies. So they're not actually getting wiped out at all any time soon.


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

SoulGazer said:


> The Imperial forces had spread out their defenses trying to cover everything because they didn't have the means to effectively counter-attack. This allowed the Tau to attack a particular series of the worlds which, while defended, did not have the overwhelming superiority of strength that the Imperium favors
> After all those hit-and-run attacks, the Tau manage to take a single cluster of worlds which was probably hardly even noticed by the Imperium at large. The Imperium is busy fighting the entire galaxy and the Tau are considered a very minor threat, all things considered. They are strong enough to make gains while not under great galactic scrutiny, which is no small feat by any means, but hardly makes them a galactic power in any sense of the word.


You seem intent on the 'Overwhelming odds' scenario. It is not often that this is the case so why should it apply here?

Few races in the 40k universe have sufficient numbers to account for overwhelming the enemy. The Tau attacked and defeated the Imperium on several well defended worlds, just as the Imperium does on a regular basis on many other worlds. The actions and reactions of both defender and attacker are universally the same regardless of the Race or size of the forces involved.

Alice


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

SoulGazer said:


> Because their combat doctrine sucks? They've gotten this far because they aren't spread out and they don't have to deal with Chaos. That may change soon. Yes, they survived a Crusade, but that's because the Imperium generally regarded the Tau as inferior and screwed the whole thing up just by being overconfident. It was a small crusade at that, nothing at all compared to what the Imperium could throw at them now that they know they aren't pushovers. The Tau would be ground down eventually, as has been pointed out previously, they lack the numbers of the Imperium to fight a war of attrition. Mobile warfare is cool and all, but you eventually run out of places to run in 40k. Hell, I can't even find mention of any battle the Tau actually won against the Imperium(though I'm sure there are some). Seems they usually only win when _allied_ with the Imperium.


Not a Tau fan I see which does raise the question as to why you'd be talking on a Tau thread.

But anyway, saying their combat doctrines suck is entirely subjective and really shouldn't be said if you are attempting to have a rational conversation. As I've said many times before, the Tau warfare has evolved from the art of hunting like those of others such as the Imperium. And let's not forget that the Tau are _aliens_ here. They do not have the same mindsets, beliefs and rationalizations as the people of the Imperium (or us). The Tau simply have a different perspective and approach to things than we do. Would criticize the Space Marines for fighting in armor painted in bright colors rather than camouflage? No because they have a different perspective and approach to war than we do.

As to battles they've won, here are some; the Cytherian Annexation, the War of the Place of Union, the Taros Campaign, the Damocles Gulf Crusade (it may have ended in negotiations but when those talks happened the Imperials were actually attempting to withdraw from Dal'yth) as well as many nameless battles in the Second and Third Sphere Expansions. In fact if you look at their big losses there tends to be a common theme in them. Either its their first encounters with a powerful alien force such as the Dark Eldar which they weren't prepared for, an overwhelming forces such as a Hive Fleet or an awakened Tomb World which even the Imperium has struggled against or they've been attacked by a major SM force, usually of multiple companies from several Chapters. If you took any of those battles and replaced the Tau with another army the battles would likely have played out much the same way.

If anything I think it's rather remarkable that the Imperium thus far as only managed to attack one major Sept World in all their conflicts with the Tau. They've halted Expansions and retaken recently lost worlds but they've never been able to recapture their initial victories in Damocles Gulf Crusade, they've never been able to since push into the major Tau worlds.



SoulGazer said:


> Just read 'em. So they do win, but again, not against any sort of overwhelming force. The Imperium is just too busy, but if they weren't, the Tau would be exterminated. 40k is all about attrition, and the Tau don't have the numbers. They need some sort of heavy unit that can take a beating, hold its ground, and allow for some breathing room. Luckily though, the latest fluff rumors say they're allied with the Space Marines, so that solves that problem if it's true.


No the Tau do not need a heavy unit like how you are describing simply because they favor long range, speed and maneuverability. A Titan-like warmachine would easily have the long range aspect down but it would be harder to say if it would have the other two down too. To a Tau Commander several Crisis teams would be far more useful than one such machine. Crisis teams are able to be quickly repositioned as the battle ebbs and flows, allowing them to counter what the enemy does. A Banebattle is a terror on the field but get Crisis team with Fusion blasters behind it and suddenly it doesn't seem as scary anymore. That's why when the Imperium brings out its Titans against them, they bring out the Mantas and Tiger Shark AX-1-0. Hell when the first squadron of AX-1-0s were deployed in battle, it was against four Warhound Titans. They destroyed one in their first strafing run while the other three retreated rather than risk destruction.

And you say 40k is all about attrition but what about the Eldar, Dark Eldar and Space Marines for that matter? They typically don't fight wars of attrition unless they have to. The Tau are similar to them in that regard. As a rule of thumb they don't hold positions unless they have too. If one of their cities is threatened, the Hunter Cardes will defend it long enough for the population to be evacuated. From they will either pull out so that they can draw out the enemy into a more favorable battlefield or they will use variants on their combat philosophies, treating the layout of the city as they would mountains or ravines, baiting them into prepared killzones or launching hit-and-run ambushes against important targets. But they won't defend it in a block by block matter like the IG would.

As to rumors of Space Marine-Tau alliance, I think that rumor was spawned as the result of a tournament (either upcoming or recent) where they had the Tau and normal SM at the highest of the three alliance ratings. Strange perhaps but if you think about it, it makes a degree of sense. Both sides have a degree of respect for one another and both will honor such an agreement (most of the time anyway, I can see exceptions to the rule). If you look at the Eldar, the other race the SM commonly ally with, usually the Eldar have some ulterior motive and will betray the SM as soon as they are no longer needed while the SM are on edge, expecting the Eldar to turn on them at any moment. That doesn't make for a good alliance. So it's more that the SM know that the Tau are honorable enough that they won't break a fair agreement.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

SGMAlice said:


> You seem intent on the 'Overwhelming odds' scenario. It is not often that this is the case so why should it apply here?
> 
> Few races in the 40k universe have sufficient numbers to account for overwhelming the enemy. The Tau attacked and defeated the Imperium on several well defended worlds, just as the Imperium does on a regular basis on many other worlds. The actions and reactions of both defender and attacker are universally the same regardless of the Race or size of the forces involved.
> 
> Alice


Heh, "overwhelming odds" is fairly often the case. Plot armor saves the day much of the time. So many times, in fact, that we hardly even notice anymore. I mean, how many victories are secured with "just enough odds?" That usually leads to a stalemate or a slow, meat-grinding war of attrition which, yes, does indeed happen often, but in this specific case of the Tau, would probably not end in their favor. It's all or nothing, which the Tau proved they are quite capable of when they pick and choose their targets.


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

SoulGazer said:


> Heh, "overwhelming odds" is fairly often the case. Plot armor saves the day much of the time. So many times, in fact, that we hardly even notice anymore. I mean, how many victories are secured with "just enough odds?" That usually leads to a stalemate or a slow, meat-grinding war of attrition which, yes, does indeed happen often, but in this specific case of the Tau, would probably not end in their favor. It's all or nothing, which the Tau proved they are quite capable of when they pick and choose their targets.


So you are applying this 'Plot Armor' instead of reading words provided and understanding them for what they say because you 'Hardly Even Notice Anymore'?

So be it, that is your choice.

Alice


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Not a Tau fan I see which does raise the question as to why you'd be talking on a Tau thread.


I am presenting an alternative opinion to be discussed in an open thread. If this thread was meant to be a Tau fan party then I sincerely apologize and I will stop posting immediately. I have nothing specifically against any race, I just like to discuss such things. Admitedly, I got off topic, for which I do apologize.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

SGMAlice said:


> So you are applying this 'Plot Armor' instead of reading words provided and understanding them for what they say because you 'Hardly Even Notice Anymore'?
> 
> So be it, that is your choice.
> 
> Alice


I was referring to all of 40k in the instance of plot armor, forgive me for not being more specific. Suicide missions and the like are very common and often times turn out to not be suicide missions at all, most especially in the case of the Space Marines and certain Commissars. That's all I meant from that.


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

The phrase 'Plot Armor' is one i have never heard before, i could but make assumptions on its meaning.

Despite all this, so far i have gotten only one thing from your words: That the Tau are A. Not likely to have the numbers for a war of attrition and B. Are incapable of withstanding a major incursion. Akatsuki13 has proved evidence that Point B is untrue. As for the former, i have seen nothing to disprove it.

We do seem to have gotten somewhat off the track of the original point of this thread :laugh:

Alice


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## Yru0 (May 9, 2011)

Admittedly I've skipped a page in this thread and will try to get back to it when I have the time, but I figured I'd just throw my $0.02 out there...

As a tau player, I repeatedlly complain to my fellow gamers that I feel the Tau's 'dominance' in ranged combat is overrated, especially with the release of the new necron codex: strength 10 Ap 1 just doesn't cut it anymore when destroyers field strength 9 in droves. 

As such, the key part of the Tau I have come to love rather than loathe, is not there super-abilities at range, but rather their lack in anything else. I beleive that it is less of a fact that the Tau army is EXCEPTIONAL at shooting, but more that we are just ridiculously crap at close combat...and I kinda like this. I don't WANT a close combat suit because I feel like it would kinda mess with this image I have of the Tau, completely opinion of course. 
The best idea I've heard for giving Tau some ass-kicking (if perhaps OP) ability in close combat is something I refer to as 'Rank and fire!", essentially the squad, say firewarriors, role an initiative test or the like, if they pass they get to fire into the attacking enemy instead of performing a defensive counter-assault that turn. This shooting always takes place first, can only work when the Tau are BEING assaulted and treats it as if the Tau have moved, so no Heavy weapons. I quite like the idea of this because again, this is one of the pictures I had of Tau armies when I first picked up the box oh so long ago  But balance wise....I doubt it would work. 

:friends: -Yru0


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

SGMAlice said:


> The phrase 'Plot Armor' is one i have never heard before, i could but make assumptions on its meaning.
> 
> Despite all this, so far i have gotten only one thing from your words: That the Tau are A. Not likely to have the numbers for a war of attrition and B. Are incapable of withstanding a major incursion. Akatsuki13 has proved evidence that Point B is untrue. As for the former, i have seen nothing to disprove it.
> 
> ...


Aha, I can see then why there might have been some confusion. Plot Armor is about the same as a character surviving a lascannon shot due to his invulnerable save on the tabletop. It's assumed that the person ducked or the lascannon missed or some other thing to explain why the poor guy didn't just die like everything else that gets shot by a lascannon. Luck or fate or a miracle saves the day, something like that, the point being that the guy survives simply due to the story needing him to do so. 

On topic: So Tau CC Suits would be multi-wound jump units that could hit and run with... storm shields/thunder hammers? Lightning claws? Hell, even normal power weapons would be rather nasty, indeed.


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

SoulGazer said:


> Aha, I can see then why there might have been some confusion. Plot Armor is about the same as a character surviving a lascannon shot due to his invulnerable save on the tabletop. It's assumed that the person ducked or the lascannon missed or some other thing to explain why the poor guy didn't just die like everything else that gets shot by a lascannon. Luck or fate or a miracle saves the day, something like that, the point being that the guy survives simply due to the story needing him to do so.
> 
> On topic: So Tau CC Suits would be multi-wound jump units that could hit and run with... storm shields/thunder hammers? Lightning claws? Hell, even normal power weapons would be rather nasty, indeed.


I assumed something as such.

These units, whatever they were, couldn't unbalance the game. Crisis Suits would have to be limited as Dreadnoughts, Deff Dread e.t.c. are.
Smaller suits like the Stealth suits could be in numbers similar to SM Assault Squads.
Both would have comparable weaponry to its counterpart.

Alice


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Like I said, I am simply not certain that these systems will be fully able to compensate. Targeting multiple things at range, and keeping track of those things, is not the same as doing so up close. While I understand that systems capable of doing one will be useful for the second I am simply not certain that they will be as useful.


That's really what it all comes back to. We do not exactly know the systems and capabilities of the Battlesuits.



> Also, there's the problem of immersion. Video games are not the same as real life, how one receives and processes information from a screen is not the same as how one does so first hand. For the most part this can be easily compensated for at range, however once things get close it becomes far harder to account for. Instincts don't respond in the same way so the natural inclination to dodge away becomes downplayed and sluggish, which is something the Tau already suffer from.


The problem with that comparison is that the Tau are far, far above what we are capable of technologically. And again we do not know the system inside a battlesuit. We can't assume that it would be anything like what we have now.



SGMAlice said:


> The phrase 'Plot Armor' is one i have never heard before, i could but make assumptions on its meaning.
> 
> Despite all this, so far i have gotten only one thing from your words: That the Tau are A. Not likely to have the numbers for a war of attrition and B. Are incapable of withstanding a major incursion. Akatsuki13 has proved evidence that Point B is untrue. As for the former, i have seen nothing to disprove it.
> 
> ...


Truthfully we don't know the size of the Tau Empire and its population so we cannot say for certain. Obviously they cannot wage a war of attrition on the level of the Imperium but they probably could do it to a degree. However they don't fight static wars like the Imperium so they wouldn't have the meat grinder that the Imperium does.


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Truthfully we don't know the size of the Tau Empire and its population so we cannot say for certain. Obviously they cannot wage a war of attrition on the level of the Imperium but they probably could do it to a degree. However they don't fight static wars like the Imperium so they wouldn't have the meat grinder that the Imperium does.


Indeed, they are a fledgeling civilisation and the actual 'physics' of how they would deal with attrition warfare would differ wildly with how races such as the Imperium do, it may never even come down to it, as you say: It probably wouldn't be a 'static' war.

'Trenches Not Included'  :laugh:

Alice


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> The problem with that comparison is that the Tau are far, far above what we are capable of technologically. And again we do not know the system inside a battlesuit. We can't assume that it would be anything like what we have now.


Well, there's only so much you can do to turn a video feed from external cameras into something a person can react to. I realize that battlesuits almost certainly operate on something more advanced than a video game but my point about immersion still stands. A battlesuit pilot cannot move intuitively, there's simply not enough room in the suit, therefore his reactions are going to be slowed. A marine can simply duck out of the way of a high swing (something his body is going to do anyway without consious thought), a battlesuit pilot can't; whatever action he has to take to duck is going to be less intuitive and thus slower. 



> Truthfully we don't know the size of the Tau Empire and its population so we cannot say for certain. Obviously they cannot wage a war of attrition on the level of the Imperium but they probably could do it to a degree. However they don't fight static wars like the Imperium so they wouldn't have the meat grinder that the Imperium does.


Given that the entire Tau Empire barely registers on a map of Imperial space it's quite safe to say that they cannot hope to battle the Imperium in a war of attrition. Ultimately humanity could lose a million people for every tau and still emerge victorious. This extreme numerical advantage gives the Imperium the ability to force a static war. They have the manpower to hold every objective and push forward at the same time, leaving the Tau no option but to retreat or fight. Now I highly doubt the Imperium will ever resort to such tactics but not because they wouldn't be effective, simply because the Tau are nothing to them. The Tau's greatest weapon continues to be their insignificance and this will not change.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Isn't the XV9 (the Forge World suit) designed for that? Experimental Close Range Weaponry, Defensive Grenade Autocasters, Bulkier, and designed to be dropped into close range via Orca.

Yes, I know the enclaves don't have access to that new kit, but then again, they're against the Orcs and Orks tends to outclass even some Astartes in CQC (when they can't use their tactics, and its more about strength).


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## Shas (May 6, 2012)

I'm surprised the Tau don't "gift" the more accomplished Kroot with full armour to make them into a CC force to be reckoned with.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

I believe that's more of the Kroot's choice than anything else. The Kroot are more akin to scouts and skirmishers than line troopers like the Fire Warriors. Armor would just weigh them down.


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