# Rumor: Daemon Dataslate: Exalted Chariot of Tzeentch



## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Wow, I forgot that Daemons even existed, despite the 3000+ point army sitting in my closet.

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2014/03/...howComment=1394578039079#c1504259192063669199



> The next White Dwarf will not contain the Ogryns, Scions, or even the Hydra. According to someone with the White Dwarf there will be an Apocalypse book with a formation for Imperial Knights, and something new..... a dataslate for Chaos Daemons.
> 
> 
> Please remember that this is a still considered to be a rumor, but it does appear that most of the Imperial Guard leaks we have been seeing are for the following week.
> ...


----------



## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Sorta curious wtf exactly this chariot will do/be. We already have a chariot of Tzeentch, so I would hope this new thing has some radically different and/or interesting rules attached to it...


----------



## Mokuren (Mar 29, 2011)

Is that the chariot that is worthless because it has a heavy weapon and due to the chariot rules it can only either move or shoot?

Are we going to pay for a patch to fix the obviously flawed original content? Seriously?


----------



## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

If so, they just saved the company! :victory:


----------



## whittsy (Feb 8, 2013)

Mokuren said:


> Is that the chariot that is worthless because it has a heavy weapon and due to the chariot rules it can only either move or shoot?
> 
> Are we going to pay for a patch to fix the obviously flawed original content? Seriously?











Where the game designers don't try and the rules don't matter.


----------



## UndeadKing (Mar 9, 2014)

From sounds of it no chaos chosen or havocs


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Mokuren said:


> Is that the chariot that is worthless because it has a heavy weapon and due to the chariot rules it can only either move or shoot?
> 
> Are we going to pay for a patch to fix the obviously flawed original content? Seriously?


No, they just want us to think that. What it really is, is an Apocalypse-like dataslate which provides it all sorts of incredibly useful bonuses and rules, but they don't change how the unit actually work at all.

And the bonuses the dataslate do provide, will function like the chariots weapon does now: Not at all.

Or am I being overly cynical now? Shit, I don't care. I'm calling it right now. That dataslate will not fix the chariot, only piss those who own one off even more. I'll be eating my own, soiled underwear before I believe GW actually cares about fixing their broken rules.


----------



## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

I'm pretty sure I heard over on warseer that the ogryns, AM and such were getting released in April--that their WDW and preorders were going up on the 29th. I could be wrong, but the way I see it, ANY SOURCE is just as reliable, if not moreso, than faeit.


----------



## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Adramalech said:


> I'm pretty sure I heard over on warseer that the ogryns, AM and such were getting released in April--that their WDW and preorders were going up on the 29th. I could be wrong, but the way I see it, ANY SOURCE is just as reliable, if not moreso, than faeit.


You know what? You'd be the kid who gets left behind while the rest of us snort pixie dust and fly off to Never Never Land. HAVE FUN GROWING UP!

Wtf, Tinkerbell doesn't want 28 year-olds? I swear, I'm not a grown up! I won't molest Peter Pan!


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

If the IG stuff is a couple of weeks away, and we've seen it already, surely something coming out this week would have been seen already as well?


----------



## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> If the IG stuff is a couple of weeks away, and we've seen it already, surely something coming out this week would have been seen already as well?


we saw the helbrute a couple weeks out. I don't see why this couldn't also be a relatively early leak.

ALSO: screw that. we can throw a party TEN TIMES BETTER than anything neverland has to offer simply by spiking the jungle juice with pcp. 

ALSO ALSO: the only reason children don't grow up in neverland is because peter pan kills them before they do. I mean, killing is kinda what elves and fairies do.


----------



## Einherjar667 (Aug 23, 2013)

"Please remember that this is a still considered to be a rumor, but it does appear that most of the Imperial Guard leaks we have been seeing are for the following week."

Isn't the following week the week after next? Leaving this upcoming week a bit of a mystery, no?


----------



## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Some more info on this nonsense:

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2014/03/details-on-this-weeks-releases.html



> Someone that has claimed to have this week's White Dwarf lets loose today with some details about the Exalted Flamer, Imperial Knight Formations and more.
> 
> 
> Of course these are rumors, as we have not seen anything official on the release front of things. However if true, I really like that they are using the model for the Exalted Flamer and giving it some rules.
> ...


----------



## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Adramalech said:


> ALSO: screw that. we can throw a party TEN TIMES BETTER than anything neverland has to offer simply by spiking the jungle juice with pcp.
> 
> ALSO ALSO: the only reason children don't grow up in neverland is because peter pan kills them before they do. I mean, killing is kinda what elves and fairies do.


LzB03c6Dc10

I let Denzel say it, because if I said to you, "I didn't know you liked to get wet," gods only know how awful your response would have been for me.


----------



## Adramalech (Nov 10, 2009)

venomlust said:


> I let Denzel say it, because if I said to you, "I didn't know you liked to get wet," gods only know how awful your response would have been for me.


l3A1PtHQGOQ

I don't really know how to respond to that (EDIT: without making a REALLY dirty joke anyway), so have some oriental metal.


----------



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

I like the idea that they're doing something with the Flamer itself. Good on them for once.

I like the idea of them putting out alternate/new rules for stuff like this so you can use the bits and bobs you have left over. I hope to see more in the future like it too.


----------



## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Zion said:


> I like the idea that they're doing something with the Flamer itself. Good on them for once.
> 
> I like the idea of them putting out alternate/new rules for stuff like this so you can use the bits and bobs you have left over. I hope to see more in the future like it too.


Any expansion of a codex that creates new units is cool IMO. I need to look at the rules for mine, as I have one of these floating around in a box somewhere.


----------



## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Cool that they're doing something with the Ex. Flamer hisself, but a model with a flamer that has the Heavy rule is still going to be piss-useful, even if it is Torrent. Or the alternate mode of the 18" Heavy shot. DS him in and spend a turn derping? If you try to get him somewhere he has line of sight on an enemy unit, they'll have line of sight on him in return, and can probably move more of their units to shoot at him. Or can move out of sight, if you're trying to angle the terrain so as not to expose yourself. Or will be in assault range. Etc.

Even in a unit of Flamers, those Flamers will be trying to move into range for their own attacks, not having Torrent; unless you conga-line out to the enemy so the Ex. Flamer can sit still (in which case every member of the conga line will be out of Flamer range), none of the Flamers will be able to attack. Or can't charge, if he shoots.

So, what? You deepstrike right into the enemys' faces, since they won't charge your brutal Overwatch, and get a good hooting turn after he's had his chance to brutalize your squad? Too bad none of the Tzeentch fast units can carry a banner for a no-scatter DS; even if you bring another god's banner for reduced scatter, you have to place the Flamers in range of mishapping onto that banner bearer to get the benefit of reduced scatter. Anybody else bitterly amused by that? Has to be within 6", with a D6" scatter.

Yeah, you can take him with a crapload of Nurgle rolling on Biomancy and hope for Endurance. That's about the only way he'd be viable: with Relentless.

If the dataslate gives him Relentless, I will giggle and caper with glee; I will eat every single one of my words--no really, I will print out a copy of this post and film myself eating it and post it in this thread, and do it happily--but I'm not counting on it. If the non-chariot Ex. Flamer had Relentless, why on earth wouldn't the in-chariot Ex. Flamer have it?

...sorry. Still a bit bitter that one of the potentially best units in the codex, the Daemonic glass cannon-cum-Heldrake, got utterly entirely totally broken to the point of worthlessness by one little rule quirk.


----------



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Slow and Purposeful is also possible Mossy. It'd mean he couldn't Overwatch or Run (or Sweeping Advance) but he'd be able to march forward and keep firing which is more what he'd get used for.


----------



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Double posting since I've seen the rules and my last post was yesterday.

Long story short: unless they FAQ it no one is going to use the darn thing in 40k. He still can't move and shoot. On the other hand the Fantasy version _can_. Go figure.


----------



## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Zion said:


> Double posting since I've seen the rules and my last post was yesterday.
> 
> Long story short: unless they FAQ it no one is going to use the darn thing in 40k. He still can't move and shoot. On the other hand the Fantasy version _can_. Go figure.


...*sigh*

Well, thanks for reporting out on it, at least.


----------



## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Even though Zion already told us, here's a pic:










http://theflyingpredator.blogspot.com/2014/03/exalted-flamer-of-tzeentch.html

Not only is he forced to snapshot/not shoot if he moves, but he can't take any rewards, so keeping him stationary and buffing units with the Grimoire isn't an option, either. Balls, I say. Balls!


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Lame, they couldn't even be bothered to try and make him work. He's still equipped with a HW, he's still not Relentless, but what's even worse is, he's not even a Jump Infantry! Why the hell not? All the other flamers are. Wow GW, I am truly impressed. You actually managed to make it even more useless than the chariot it rides on. I did not think that would be possible for anyone to be this bad at game design, but obviously I was wrong.


----------



## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

I tried to be positive as much as I could when reading through the rules, but they are quite disappointing.

The author of the article I linked from is just happy that someone noticed that this model had no rules and could be utilized. To a degree, I'm pleased with that idea, because it gives players another option. The flipside is that the existence of various options does not mean that they're all viable. 

Why would I take one of these when I can take a Herald of Tzeentch, who is 5 points cheaper, can take the rewards/loci, is a psyker that can take divination powers, can take a disc to make him a jetbike, and can sink 1 point into Tzeentch powers to have a decent shooting attack?

Surely, those additions make the Tzherald more expensive, but also very useful. The Flamer, on the other hand, can only sit still and shoot. Ok.


----------



## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

Mossy Toes said:


> So, what? You deepstrike right into the enemys' faces, since they won't charge your brutal Overwatch, and get a good hooting turn after he's had his chance to brutalize your squad? Too bad none of the Tzeentch fast units can carry a banner for a no-scatter DS; even if you bring another god's banner for reduced scatter, you have to place the Flamers in range of mishapping onto that banner bearer to get the benefit of reduced scatter. Anybody else bitterly amused by that? Has to be within 6", with a D6" scatter.


 Yeah does make it really bad for crowded battle areas deepstriking like that.
Someone I played against told me to ally in a chaos space marine sorc in a unit of cultists or something, giving him a Dimentional Key as all friendly units don't scatter after you kill someone with the model that is holding it. Trouble is if you read on from their it actually says "All friendly units from this codex" being codex chaos space marines doesn't help 
Shame you cant get something like a Tzeentch Battle Standard Bearer type of model who is a herald holding a magical flag 
I also agree that a FAQ needs to come out either changing them from heavy to assault fire or make a different rule excluding them from the normal template weapons cant make snap shots.


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

venomlust said:


> I tried to be positive as much as I could when reading through the rules, but they are quite disappointing.
> 
> The author of the article I linked from is just happy that someone noticed that this model had no rules and could be utilized. To a degree, I'm pleased with that idea, because it gives players another option. The flipside is that the existence of various options does not mean that they're all viable.
> 
> ...


Pfff...those arguments don't even matter when a bareboned Tzerald is cheaper and still 100 times more useful. What is the point of giving it rules when they are this bad?

Oh well, maybe next time. It's not like Daemons are a bad army or needs this unit after all. It's just a shame one of the coolest models from their release is completely worthless on the table.


----------



## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

mayegelt said:


> Yeah does make it really bad for crowded battle areas deepstriking like that.
> Someone I played against told me to ally in a chaos space marine sorc in a unit of cultists or something, giving him a Dimentional Key as all friendly units don't scatter after you kill someone with the model that is holding it. Trouble is if you read on from their it actually says "All friendly units from this codex" being codex chaos space marines doesn't help
> Shame you cant get something like a Tzeentch Battle Standard Bearer type of model who is a herald holding a magical flag
> I also agree that a FAQ needs to come out either changing them from heavy to assault fire or make a different rule excluding them from the normal template weapons cant make snap shots.


I have another issue with the Dimensional Key in that, even on a bike, you almost always aren't going to get stuck into combat in order to activate it until T2--by which point 2/3 of your reserves will have come in already anyway.


----------



## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Mossy Toes said:


> I have another issue with the Dimensional Key in that, even on a bike, you almost always aren't going to get stuck into combat in order to activate it until T2--by which point 2/3 of your reserves will have come in already anyway.


How much you wanna bet they're gonna release artifact dataslates at some point?


----------



## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

venomlust said:


> How much you wanna bet they're gonna release artifact dataslates at some point?


You kidding? That's basically what a Supplement is anyways, with a few other fancy rules piled on top...


----------



## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Mossy Toes said:


> You kidding? That's basically what a Supplement is anyways, with a few other fancy rules piled on top...


Haha shit, it's true!


----------



## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

Sorry in advance for the wall of text I do go fully back on topic about half way down.

From what I am seeing across the GW range they are removing more items than they add when it comes to customising. Though adding more models to each army to get £s out of your pocket. As said the supplements add a few every so often if you want to play with the additional rules. A weird one being the Iyanden one that added a load of nice things with absolutely no downside while giving you some nice relics and if you want a wraithlord/knight can be your leader, unlike black legion who have to take VotLW on everyone.
But if you need more proof if you turn to WFB look at something like the Beastmen or Skaven books what both have about 40-50 items each in their magic and rewards stuff, then look at all the 8th edition ones that have about 10 each. This is one of the things that put me off WFB due to lack of customisation meaning that everyone had the cookie cutter leaders because anything different tended to be shoddy.
The same is happening with W40k in the games I have been playing locally, that most forces are cookie cutter X like for Eldar the norm is few cheep squads of jetbikes because normal guardians are no where near as good. Even with the 50% increase in cost over the unmounted ones, its +1T, twin linked weapon, Eldar jetbike speed, 3+ rather than 5+ save, and of course jink and all that making a really nice cover save.

Back onto topic though... They really need to fix a few things in the daemon army like this. I actually win a lot of my games with them, but it is almost entirely because of things like 2-3 units of Fleshhounds being able to get in combat really fast and just stopping heavy bolter units from firing (oh look, I'm having to cookie cutter). Or holding the middle area with small squads I can port in nearer to the end of the game.

The only time I have found tzeentch horrors having a great use was when I worked out I could throw a unit in a bastion with 4 front facing heavy bolters and with a herald. The Herald fired off his 3d6 flames, the horrors were then free to both man the 4 heavy bolters and stuff fire off 4d6 flame shots all of which has rerolls from prescience. Though as someone else pointed out to me after I did that, he used the same tactic before using bloodletters as they have BS5 and could defend themselves with hellblades if anyone was stupid enough to try to get in (175 (195 with a comms relay to reroll reserves if you are deepstriking in stuff as well) for 12 S5 AP4 36"range hitting on 2s, and if assaulted they have shiney AP3 weapons for melee from 10 guys).

I found it kinda sad that with the FAQs that have been put online unlike in the olden days where you might get an errata once every 4-6 months after a book release saying "Yeah we heard your feedback and found that X Y Z were over/under priced/powered, or were useless because we didn't think about X rule combining with rule Y took away the idea what we wanted them for. So here is a bit of a fix / rebalance." And now in the case of several armies that clearly have problems like this and been around for a long time now, they don't fix. Things like Warp Talons or possessed (though crimson slaughter might have fixed possessed) are rarely used because most people tend to like them as an idea, but the points cost it way to high for how much they can do and how quick they can die. Same goes with the Tzeentch chariot and the new exalted thing here. They have taken a broken model that as far as I have seen no one uses and made it into 2 broken models no one will use.
Equally I seem to be the only one who likes Seeker Chariots with a lesser or greater blade in hand for just mowing down units and even cutting up MEQs and TEQs, especially at a disposable 50-60pts each.


----------



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Cookie cutter lists in 6th edition are the fault of players who refuse to play anything other than the most optimized lists they can. Blood Angels Razorback spam from 5th edition comes to mind of a great example of the kind of stuff that happens.

GW makes it clear that they mean the game to involve both players having fun and don't mean it to all that serious of a competition, but players insist on trying to play 40k with the same mindset they'd play Warmachine with.


----------



## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

Zion said:


> Cookie cutter lists in 6th edition are the fault of players who refuse to play anything other than the most optimized lists they can. Blood Angels Razorback spam from 5th edition comes to mind of a great example of the kind of stuff that happens.
> 
> GW makes it clear that they mean the game to involve both players having fun and don't mean it to all that serious of a competition, but players insist on trying to play 40k with the same mindset they'd play Warmachine with.


There is however a big difference between optimal / sub optimal / non viable. In a fair few cases, it looks like they are heading down the path of effectively forcing you to take certain things otherwise you wont be able to win. I do realise winning isn't everything though and actually having fun is the point. But tend to also find that if the chances of winning are made so slim effectively throwing away points then it becomes a lot less fun. That is also why I like daemon armies, because even with the most careful plans in the world you are very much as the mercy of random dice on every turn.
Sure I can take out my CSM army that I don't think many would say is traditional cookie cutter and win. A traditional list for me has a prince leading and basically as many nurgle marines as I can put in and a couple of cultist squads for even more weight of numbers. Never use terms / oblits / mutils, possessed, raptor, havoc, hellbrute, forgefiend, helldrake, defiler... I rarely take any heavy or special weapons and just rely on the fact I can normally walk down the table as fast as I can and by the time I get to the enemy I haven't lost enough people to then not be able to win combats against them and drive them off. Any vehicles that are on the field generally unless the prince has taken them out will remain doing what they want the whole fight as my army doesn't have anything that can harm them. But I don't generally need to care as they aren't able to hold objectives. The only other thing I tend to do is some times I will take some chosen of nurgle cos pt per pt they are as good as the normal chaos space marines with the mark. Also have maulerfiends sometimes.

But with all that I know a lot of people don't use a lot of the stuff I said I don't use, though forgefiends & helldrakes seem commonly used. But even when looking at Noisemarines & Thousand Sons most people keep well away from them as they are either to expensive in points or have no real use. Dropping the points on each by even 1-2 though would then make them viable again. Leading to hard decisions of do I take X number of Chosen, or I could have X number of Thousand Sons. Giving a bit of flexability to the army. However ones like Khorne Bezerkers are a frequently used one because they are viable in points and offer something to the army.
Plague Marines on the other hand tend to be seen as just that tiny bit to expensive, even though they have poison melee weapons mainly for rerolling to wound against T4 or below, defensive grenades in case they are charged and for the stealth effect and most important feel no pain 5+.
If you stack them against normal or chosen though it looks nuts for the points.
16pts for a normal CSM with nurgle with bolt pistol and CC weapon (+2 if he has the boltgun still).
21pts for Chosen of nurgle armed with pistol, CC weapon and boltgun.
Plague Marines are 24pts each and actually have 1 less Initiative taking them to I3. So even with FNP, defence grenades and poison weapons they just seem to be bad. Especially when something like a vindicator only has to kill 5 of them to almost make its points back.
I don't know about you, but I would prefer 24 Chaos Marines of Nurgle rather than 16 Plague Marines (same pts cost) However knock a 1-2pts off the Plague Marines and 22-23 Chaos Marines of Nurgle vs 16 Plague Marines looks like an even chance on going for either.


----------



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

mayegelt said:


> There is however a big difference between optimal / sub optimal / non viable. In a fair few cases, it looks like they are heading down the path of effectively forcing you to take certain things otherwise you wont be able to win.


That is assuming they want you to play this game in the most competitive fashion possible (which ascribes malice to their actions). I have a feeling they really expect us to play more like they do with the battle reports: by taking a smattering of whatever we like.



mayegelt said:


> I do realise winning isn't everything though and actually having fun is the point. But tend to also find that if the chances of winning are made so slim effectively throwing away points then it becomes a lot less fun. That is also why I like daemon armies, because even with the most careful plans in the world you are very much as the mercy of random dice on every turn.


You can have fun playing any army. I speak from experience as a Sisters player of 5 years and counting (though they're on a shelf right now so I can build Crimson Slaughter). Not likely to win the game itself? Create secondary objectives for yourself, or build lists that are so anti what the meta expects and watch everyone get thrown for a loop (I saw an all foot DA army wreck havoc at a Rogue Trader once because no one brought the tools to kill ~40 Marines fast enough to win).

As for "throwing away points" that's a very subjective feeling. Back before the current codex people used to say Repentia were worthless (they are *now*, but I got a lot of mileage out of them under the WD codex). If you can find a use for the unit, then it really isn't a waste of points. Maybe not the most optimized use of them, but that hardly makes things a waste.



mayegelt said:


> Sure I can take out my CSM army that I don't think many would say is traditional cookie cutter and win. A traditional list for me has a prince leading and basically as many nurgle marines as I can put in and a couple of cultist squads for even more weight of numbers.


Those are the basis for a number of tournament lists I've seen actually.



mayegelt said:


> Never use terms / oblits / mutils, possessed, raptor, havoc, hellbrute, forgefiend, helldrake, defiler... I rarely take any heavy or special weapons and just rely on the fact I can normally walk down the table as fast as I can and by the time I get to the enemy I haven't lost enough people to then not be able to win combats against them and drive them off.


Oblits, Heldrakes and sometimes Defilers are common for CSM lists so those I understand singling out as not being in your list because they're fairly common in the meta, but the rest I don't see people taking that many of (even Havocs are falling out of favor lately it seems). The lack of heavies isn't a shock as that can kill your mobility, but no specials? That's a bit shocking.



mayegelt said:


> Any vehicles that are on the field generally unless the prince has taken them out will remain doing what they want the whole fight as my army doesn't have anything that can harm them. But I don't generally need to care as they aren't able to hold objectives. The only other thing I tend to do is some times I will take some chosen of nurgle cos pt per pt they are as good as the normal chaos space marines with the mark. Also have maulerfiends sometimes.


So you're basically play Death Guard the Legion in terms of play style then?



mayegelt said:


> But with all that I know a lot of people don't use a lot of the stuff I said I don't use, though forgefiends & helldrakes seem commonly used. But even when looking at Noisemarines & Thousand Sons most people keep well away from them as they are either to expensive in points or have no real use. Dropping the points on each by even 1-2 though would then make them viable again. Leading to hard decisions of do I take X number of Chosen, or I could have X number of Thousand Sons. Giving a bit of flexability to the army. However ones like Khorne Bezerkers are a frequently used one because they are viable in points and offer something to the army.


Noise Marines get some mileage as people really like the Blastmaster, but Thousand Sons only get played by the die hard enthusiasts, and not the tournament players. I don't see much love online for Forgefiends, but the internet hates everything so it's no surprise. 



mayegelt said:


> Plague Marines on the other hand tend to be seen as just that tiny bit to expensive, even though they have poison melee weapons mainly for rerolling to wound against T4 or below, defensive grenades in case they are charged and for the stealth effect and most important feel no pain 5+.
> If you stack them against normal or chosen though it looks nuts for the points.
> 16pts for a normal CSM with nurgle with bolt pistol and CC weapon (+2 if he has the boltgun still).
> 21pts for Chosen of nurgle armed with pistol, CC weapon and boltgun.
> ...


The internet will tell you to build CSM to win with you "need" to take Plague Marines as they're apparently better than _everything_ else *ever*.

But if I wanted to run a Plague Marine army I'd play Death Guard or the Cleaved or something instead of Crimson Slaughter. Instead I'm looking at CSM with extra CCW, 2 Meltas (and maybe a combi-melta for the Champ maybe) Marks of Khorne and the Icon of Wrath in a metal box with a Dirge Caster on it for what I'll be running (probably a Havok Launcher on the Rhino too). My FA looks like it's going to have a squad of Raptors, a Cuttledrake (a converted Heldrake) and a squad of Nurgle bikers to run a tooled up Chaos Lord in (alternatively the Lord will get tooled up and put on a Juggernaught and run in a unit of Spawn, both sound fun). I don't know much else I'm going to be running yet (beyond possible a Helcult from the Helbrute Dataslate) but I've got a triple-Plas Forgefiend I'm looking forward to running, even if it isn't ultra effective. Vindicators or Obliterators may end up filling the other HS slots.


----------



## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

Zion said:


> Those are the basis for a number of tournament lists I've seen actually.


 Didn't tend to see to many like it, and yeah it throws a lot of people in a loop when they go... hang on, 2000pts army and you have 100+ guys....



Zion said:


> Oblits, Heldrakes and sometimes Defilers are common for CSM lists so those I understand singling out as not being in your list because they're fairly common in the meta, but the rest I don't see people taking that many of (even Havocs are falling out of favor lately it seems). The lack of heavies isn't a shock as that can kill your mobility, but no specials? That's a bit shocking.


Just never found the special weapons useful. I just keep on running in the shooting phase to get in as fast as I can, no time for shooting 



Zion said:


> So you're basically play Death Guard the Legion in terms of play style then?


 Yeah, my old old old old old army is Deathguard. I have classic 3rd edition led models. None of this plastic stuffs . So yeah I kinda play them as if they were Orcs 

--------------

As I said in the previous post. With the way the FAQs and Errata are online now, and even with downloadable codex, you would have thought that they could spend a few months with the book out there in real testing by the public and when they find that a lot of people aren't using X Y Z or the rules aren't working such as the new Exalted unmounted Flamer. They could upload a few tweeks to the codex to make it worth while.

Sure if they change a few rules then on some occasions you will find Red is the new Black then a few months later Green is the new Red. If GW if they wanted (thought probably wouldn't) could send people in buying circles to make 1 thing great then nurf it or buff something else so its even better. Of people may find the thing they bought what was insanely powerful when they got it is now a mere average. But to do nothing with some things that are clearly from players being repeatedly said are not worth it or the rules are terrible for so cant be used, but they will fix when they release the next edition of the codex is really bad IMOO. 

Also on another side note someone earlier in the post and I was working from what they said about the exalted chariot not being able to move and fire because the attacks are heavy AND template, so heavy weapons when moved can only snapshot and template weapons cant snapshot. HOWEVER Chariots class as Vehicles (p82) and ALL Vehicles have relentless (p71) If this doesn't apply to the Exalted however because he isn't the Vehicle himself even though if it's blow up he goes with it. Then under Transports (p78) it lists under firepoints that if moving at combat speed means people inside count as moving, and cruising is snap shots only. But that doesn't seem to be clear about if the shot isn't fired out of an open topped vehicle (as a chariot is) as it doesn't use firepoints.

I do however accept that "house rules" can solve some of these issues as well. As a general rule those I have asked tend to say that as the exalted disappears as soon as the chariot dies and vice versa then he is the vehicle for the purpose of relentless.


----------



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

I have a feeling the concern by GW is that some people will miss the changes. I know I often have to show or tell people when there are FAQ updates because a lot of people don't check. And updating the digital versions only works if they know it's updated (iPad doesn't notify you, and the ePub version has to be manually downloaded every time it updates) or if everyone has digital codexes.


----------



## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

Zion said:


> I have a feeling the concern by GW is that some people will miss the changes. I know I often have to show or tell people when there are FAQ updates because a lot of people don't check. And updating the digital versions only works if they know it's updated (iPad doesn't notify you, and the ePub version has to be manually downloaded every time it updates) or if everyone has digital codexes.


I think some of the having to show FAQs also comes because they look in their book to plan things out just forgetting about the changes, or in some cases if something has been made more expensive or worse choose to ignore them. My books have nice post-it notes on to remind me on the correct pages. Or pencil marks tends to be a popular option as well for some people.

Word of mouth will surely spread the news in a lot of cases though. If you play in a gaming club there is bound to be a rules nerd who will come up to you and tell you "OMG you know that thing that was awesome... well now it isn't!!!" or something along those lines. Equally in a GW store they could have update sheets as well. It isn't as if I say they should do it month by month, but just give the book a once over at the 4-6month period then maybe again 1yr after release or something.
I still remember when my brother bought the Dark Elf book for 3-4th edition (I think) and that had an extra A5 errata sheet in book that was clearly just printed out and shoved in. It said something along the lines of "oppps we made a mistake, this should be this, and this should cost this" because even on release they had printed the copies before testing was totally finished and weapon had a mistype in its rules so it didn't make sense and a unit cost 1pt to many per model.

With the new WD thing being weekly as well this opens them up to adding and fiddling a bit, but with a lot of people missing stuff if they don't get it every week. However if they put in a "We changed this" part in there and also added it to the online FAQs it might help. To me it seems a bit better than the possessed fix for CSM they seem to have done if you play as Crimson Slaughter what you are still left with a pointless unit if you don't


----------



## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Personally I think it'd be irresponsible to rely that heavily on their customers to do the leg work for them. I honestly think that FAQs and Erratas need to be made more visible to the general public so we all end up on the same page instead of all over the place like we are now.

When that happens then we can look at tweaking codexes in the middle of editions without making a new book to replace it.


----------



## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

Zion said:


> Personally I think it'd be irresponsible to rely that heavily on their customers to do the leg work for them. I honestly think that FAQs and Erratas need to be made more visible to the general public so we all end up on the same page instead of all over the place like we are now.
> 
> When that happens then we can look at tweaking codexes in the middle of editions without making a new book to replace it.


Yeah, they shouldn't have to rely heavily on customers to do the leg work. But as time has proved over many years of the games being out there. They don't seem to have the best in-house play testers to work out the finer points of everything. I would suspect that things like the Thousand Sons points cost being to high in most peoples opinion is down to a simple Marine base stats + Higher LD + 5+ invun save + MoT improving the invun save + AP3 bolters + Fearless - Slow and Purposeful = X. While not accounting for other issues like. A) Are we overpricing the unit so people will go for cheeper alternatives. B) Is there something else that does a similar job. C) Does the unit fit in with the play style of the army or will other aspects of the army prevent it from doing what we want it to be able to do.
Thousand Sons are probably not a great example of this as I type it rather than something like Possessed who are clearly overcost, underpowered and unreliable. I would always take 3 CSM over 2 Possessed and I would have points spare. Again things like Warp Talons sound great with the pair of lightning claws and daemon saves, but again you can have almost 2-1 raptors than warptalons. I can see Warptalons being great with MoT at ripping down MEQs who also have power weapons, but otherwise the additional amount of attacks you are getting and more survivability of the raptors generally wins.


----------

