# Some of the new GK fluff is terrible!!



## Ardias26 (Sep 26, 2008)

Don't get me wrong, most of it is quite good and fills in a lot about the inquisitions beginnings and the gk in general. But (yes there is a few BIG buts..) One grey knight being able to bring down a daemon primarch (mortarion) even if only temporary, thats just simply real bad chuck norrising on the writers part. Especially since it took nearly 100 gks just to banish Angron back to the warp.

I also dont like the idea of a GK being 'incorruptable', older and better fluff paints chaos as a kind of unknowable cthonic force, the kind of thing where merely seeing it in its pure form would drive you mad etc. Having GKs as the most resistant to corruption, yeah thats great. But having a lone GK walking around the warp on his own when ships need gellar fields to travel through it? NOOOOO.
On a side note though, I like the new radical touch of the GKS, using alien tech etc.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Grey knights have always been labled as uncorruptible, but this codex says they are fallible, look at the librarium entry crowe entry and a few others, there massive fears of them getting corrupted

Personally i think alot of the character fluff eg delago, ghost knights and immortal justicar are awful but the purge of Jollana is my new favourite codex story, Ahriman is awesome!


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Darn it, there's numerous threads that cover this already...

I've actually read through the released Grey Knights codex and the fluff turned out to be not as bad as I thought it would be. I'm still dissatisfied with the fluff for certain special characters that will not be named for reasons I have already covered in other threads, but it wasn't terrible and most of it involves doing exactly what I'd expect the Grey Knights to do. Only a few things, like a vial of the Emprah's crystallized tears and the execution of still-loyal Sisters of Battle to annoint the GKs' weapons and armor with their "innocent blood" still bother me in addition to my previous misgivings about the Codex. The fluff I disliked is still there, but otherwise the Codex turned out to be okay.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Draigo aside, I think the fluff in the book is pretty solid.

I'm a big fan of the (limited) expansion of the Sigilite's back story and abilities because up until now he was just a psyker that worked with the Emperor. Now we have an idea of what he was capable of.

Giving actual background to the chapter also does wonderful things for the army. It shows some of the capabilities of the Inquisition and the lengths they have been ordered to go to for the future of the Imperium.

Plus it gives a few things that open up a lot of questions for the fluff. We know only 1 name of the first 8 Space Marines to start the grey knights, Janus. Who were the other 7 (though I assume 1 was Garro) and what legions did they come from. Who was Janus that he would have been chosen above Garro (if Garro was even there)? Then theres the Terminus Decree, what could it actually be?

Then theres all the cool tech they have, like the cages that can capture beings of pure energy. Who made them, and why has relations with them fallen out of favor?

Plenty of cool stuff in the codex, but of course people are simply going to bitch about Draigo and the killing of the sisters.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

This has actually got me mildly interested in the Grey Knights. The annointing of weapons with the blood of the innocent is right up the alley of the Inquisition and the Imperium. Plus them being Daemon Hunters is another good point.

Hmmmmm ... may have to consider making them my army.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

In regards to the one hundred Grey Knights/Angron, bit, if you look at the official GW fluff on the First War of Armageddon, it's actually a bit different than most describe it to be.

Captain Aurellian and one hundred Grey Knights do attack Angron, but he is accompanied by a dozen Bloodthirsters. By the time the final duel occurs, there are "less than two dozen" Grey Knights left. Angron at that point defeats Aurellian handily... but it's worth mentioning that the Captain had already been badly wounded.

At that point, Aurellian and the surviving thirteen Grey Knights form a "defensive circle" and unleash a psychic assault at Angron. For his part, the Daemon Primarch is described as simply charging their psychic onslaught, either heedless of the danger or thinking he's impervious to it.

Three Grey Knights (and Aurellian, technically) die from the psychic assault they unleash.

At any rate, while more than one Grey Knight was needed to defeat Angron, I simply wanted to point out that it's not as if "one hundred Grey Knights" is the established standard. Fact is, at no point did Angron face more than a squad of Grey Knights at a time during that battle. I haven't seen the Codex, so it might be worth wondering how much more capable this one Grey Knight was as opposed to the standard Grey Knight Terminator Captain-type found in that book. 

Cheers,
P.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Draigo is just Russel Crowe fighting around the warp. 

He couldn`t beat cancer, so he beat someone with cancer (Mortarion). 

For his next incredible feat, he will do battle with STD`s in the palace of Slaanesh.


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

I haven't read the GK codex, just so you know.

Grey knights have always been "uncorruptible" although I always had doubt about it being 100%, it must be more like 99.9% because Horus, the Emperor's best man was corrupted quite quickly.
And I'm pretty sure it was 400-300 GKs that took down Angron (or am i confusing that with something else?) and even then he killed most of them.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

So Daemon Primarchs will _always_ win, whatever the scenario? Isn't that just as bad, just as much of a Mary Sue? Isn't there moaning and gnashing of feet that characters can't be beaten? Why does Mortarion get a free pass?
To me, what happens to Mortarion is showing just how much he has become his adopted father. He turns his new Daemonworld into a plague planet that is much like Barbarus. He preys on the weak, using his super soldiers who are impervious to harm. Now, in the fight with Draigo he has become just as arrogant. What was it that brought his adoptive-father down? He disregarded the actions of a man he thought could never hurt him and whilst it wasn't Mortarion who laid the killing blow, it was his actions that showed the Emperor who to kill. Here, Mortarion stands, behind his Death Shroud, inviolable in his power. He utterly disregards the will and desire of one he sees as worthless; so do his bodyguard. This is thrown in his face as Draigo rises full of righteous hate. Even Daemon Primarchs aren't invulnerable; even Daemon Primarchs fuck up. If they didn't, where's the tension in any story that they appear in?
Draigo in the warp is a mix of Sisyphus and Prometheus. Sisyphus- No matter what he does, it makes no lasting difference. He could cleanse 80% of the Warp, it would all come back just a strong and twice as twisted. Prometheus- he is punished by a being of great power for displeasing it and no matter what respite he may ever have, he is always pulled back to the nightmare.
Draigo- one of Humanity's ultimate weapons with psychic power, a mind of steel and a soul that is pure. Why can't this character do great things?
As for Crowe, he is impervious to the lure of Chaos, which is why he wields the blade. The fear of taint of other GKs is well founded, however. This blade is truely evil, steeped in blood and tainted utterly; to be anything less than paranoid about who it can effect is a shortcut to the fall of the first GK to Chaos.
And, after posting all of that, do we really need _another_ GK complaint thread?

GFP


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## pattywhacker (Mar 10, 2011)

Karak The Unfaithful said:


> I haven't read the GK codex, just so you know.
> 
> Grey knights have always been "uncorruptible" although I always had doubt about it being 100%, it must be more like 99.9% because Horus, the Emperor's best man was corrupted quite quickly.


I'm not 100% on this, but the way I see it, Horus would be more liable to temptation from Chaos than the Grey Knights anyway. Horus was raised amongst humans, and thus has some level of human emotion that Chaos can prey upon, whereas the Grey Knights are wiped completely of their previous life, and would therefore also probably lose many human emotions one would learn growing up. The only one they would really keep is hatred to Daemons and Chaos.

Having said that, I doubt they are truly uncorruptable, Daemon's probably just can't find something tempting enough to break their unwavering loyalty. And it is hinted at in the Codex that there are fears that they could be corruptable, and so only the Purifiers can see the most potent of Daemon knowledge.


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## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

It's likely not a matter that a primarch was defeated, more the ease it's done with. Still I find the praise for primarchs held by many fans to be obnoxious and mindless too. In some ways watching the fallout of this belief in their invincibility being made questionable is very funny. It nearly makes up for the fact that my army now like to varnish their armour with sororita blood and herd orangutans about in battle.



Phoebus said:


> In regards to the one hundred Grey Knights/Angron, bit, if you look at the official GW fluff on the First War of Armageddon, it's actually a bit different than most describe it to be.
> 
> Captain Aurellian and one hundred Grey Knights do attack Angron, but he is accompanied by a dozen Bloodthirsters. By the time the final duel occurs, there are "less than two dozen" Grey Knights left. Angron at that point defeats Aurellian handily... but it's worth mentioning that the Captain had already been badly wounded.
> 
> ...





Karak The Unfaithful said:


> I haven't read the GK codex, just so you know.
> 
> Grey knights have always been "uncorruptible" although I always had doubt about it being 100%, it must be more like 99.9% because Horus, the Emperor's best man was corrupted quite quickly.
> And I'm pretty sure it was 400-300 GKs that took down Angron (or am i confusing that with something else?) and even then he killed most of them.


Here is the source Phoebus mentioned. Yeesh, I'm loosing how count of how many times I've posted it this week. The statistics most often told are that there were a dozen Bloodthirsters protecting Angron, to the one hundred Grey Knight Terminators (roughly a whole company) led by Aurellian. The numbers that survived the encounter at least number ten Grey Knights, possibly more. Those that died are mainly described as having distracted his bodyguard so Aurellian and his unit could strike at Angron more directly. To be fair it doesn't sound like Angron was in 'all out angry, battlerage mode' from the article and was actually having fun up until the end.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

The whole thing about killing Sisters to anoint their blades is far too close to chaos rituals for my liking. I know they seem to be trying to make them more edgy, but that's going a bit too far into the realms of Khornate habits. Their own pure spirit should be enough without the blood of virgins.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I dont belive Daemon Primarchs should get a Free Pass. However the only thing more powerful than a DP Primarch should be the Chaos God itself. Lets face it Primarchs were badass enough to beat GDs and DPs by themselves, now they have all the power of a DP as well. That should make them pretty damn untouchable, I mean if Fulgrim could Easily pwn Guilliman then really what chance does a Pure Astartes stand. So how is Mortarion punked? Also a 100 GK Termies vs Angron and Bloodthirsters at the time the Warp Storm is weakening and only banishing him for a mere 100 years sounds right. 1 GK against a plant full of GUOs and Mortarion in the Warp is BS.

Its also nice to see GKs who are so good and pure Sacrifice Virgins and weild Daemon Weapons to win. Hey that sounds like Chaos.....


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> Its also nice to see GKs who are so good and pure Sacrifice Virgins and weild Daemon Weapons to win. Hey that sounds like Chaos.....


The whole demon weapon thing is shit as well. He doesn't even use it as one, just a power weapon. Also, if I read it right in the brief time I glanced through the codex in my local GW, it gives anybody attacking him furious charge? What's the point if all it does is give your enemy an advantage?

Please correct me if I read that entry wrong.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Karak The Unfaithful said:


> And I'm pretty sure it was 400-300 GKs that took down Angron (or am i confusing that with something else?) and even then he killed most of them.


No, your wrong, it was a hundred, and no, he did not kill most of them himself, he had a dozen bloodthirsters and a shitload of World Eaters with him.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Doelago said:


> No, your wrong, it was a hundred, and no, he did not kill most of them himself, he had a dozen bloodthirsters and a shitload of World Eaters with him.


Well when you put it that way your wrong as well. It was Angron, dozen BTs, and alot of WEs. Against 100 Termie GKs, Logan Grimnar and the SWs, and all of the Steel Legion.

So how do you make it sound like the GKs were outnumbered 100 to 1?


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Well when you put it that way your wrong as well. It was Angron, dozen BTs, and alot of WEs. Against 100 Termie GKs, Logan Grimnar and the SWs, and all of the Steel Legion.
> 
> So how do you make it sound like the GKs were outnumbered 100 to 1?


Actually from what I've read, the GKs teleported in behind enemy lines to defeat Angron while Grimnar led the rest of the Imperial forces against the legions of the Daemon Primarch. The GKs had no support from the rest of the Imperials because they so deep behind enemy lines. In essence, it was an extreme-risk commando strike against the enemy leader, not two great armies clashing with a smaller unit of one army rushing at the other HQ.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Actually from what I've read, the GKs teleported in behind enemy lines to defeat Angron while Grimnar led the rest of the Imperial forces against the legions of the Daemon Primarch. The GKs had no support from the rest of the Imperials because they so deep behind enemy lines. In essence, it was an extreme-risk commando strike against the enemy leader, not two great armies clashing with a smaller unit of one army rushing at the other HQ.


The above is correct.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> I dont belive Daemon Primarchs should get a Free Pass. However the only thing more powerful than a DP Primarch should be the Chaos God itself. Lets face it Primarchs were badass enough to beat GDs and DPs by themselves, now they have all the power of a DP as well. That should make them pretty damn untouchable, I mean if Fulgrim could Easily pwn Guilliman then really what chance does a Pure Astartes stand. So how is Mortarion punked? Also a 100 GK Termies vs Angron and Bloodthirsters at the time the Warp Storm is weakening and only banishing him for a mere 100 years sounds right. 1 GK against a plant full of GUOs and Mortarion in the Warp is BS.


Well, An'ggrath is currently Khorne's favored champion and among the most powerful of his daemonic servants, so the Daemon Primarchs may not be the most powerful. Don't get me wrong, they're up there, but it looks like some of their greater daemons are more powerful than even the Primarchs.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

As an aside, the GW article I linked earlier only has Angron and a dozen Bloodthirsters facing down Aurellian and one hundred Grey Knights. No mention in the narrative is made regarding World Eaters being in that battle.

That having been said, the Primarchs definitely have this great deal of mythology built around them. Where the Imperium is concerned, so much of that is propaganda that has developed into outright religion. Where the Astartes were concerned, add to that psycho-indoctrination and genetic tampering. Bottom line, though, Primarchs were never invulnerable. Sure, they were amazing fighters, but at no point is it presumed that they can just roll around, impervious to the vagaries of war. Case in point, there's a reason why Corax was *hiding* after the Dropsite Massacres (and before his rescue). Primarchs have met their (near) match in Daemons before, so I don't see why one of them (depending on the context, of course) couldn't be beaten (temporarily) by a legendary Grey Knights champion.

Just my thoughts.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Actually from what I've read, the GKs teleported in behind enemy lines to defeat Angron while Grimnar led the rest of the Imperial forces against the legions of the Daemon Primarch. The GKs had no support from the rest of the Imperials because they so deep behind enemy lines. In essence, it was an extreme-risk commando strike against the enemy leader, not two great armies clashing with a smaller unit of one army rushing at the other HQ.





Doelago said:


> The above is correct.


Seriously? My statment still stands. You have the SWs and Steel Legion engaging MOST of the WEs and Daemons. Then you have a SUPRISE attack of a 100 GK Terminators (and people seem to forget that 100 termies can hold off a Waaagh (Death Wing) or a Hive Fleet (UM) for a time) that engaged directly with Angron and his BT Bodyguards. So How is it everyone says its a Hundred GKs vs the entire army of Angron? Too much credit, bordering on Matt Ward.



Protoss119 said:


> Well, An'ggrath is currently Khorne's favored champion and among the most powerful of his daemonic servants, so the Daemon Primarchs may not be the most powerful. Don't get me wrong, they're up there, but it looks like some of their greater daemons are more powerful than even the Primarchs.


You know thats true, some GD who are directly favs of their gods could be more badass than DP Primarchs like Angron who has a bodygaurd of BT bitches.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Just got my hands on the codex and I have to say it was awesome. Like some here, I didn't like the SoB killing bit simply because throughout the whole codex, the GK are states as being immune to all taint, so why the need to anoint their blades in the bloods of innocents?

The bit about the Exorcists giving up potential recruits was very interesting to me and we finally have official confirmation about the GK's geneseed which answers a lot of questions and also raises some, like could the original 8 Astartes be from legions like the AL ?

I loved the info about Malacador, very interesting.

The bit where the GK stand guard over the dead craftworld was fascinating in that they would hand over control to the Eldar like they were honor-bound.

This codex makes Ben Counter's novels about the GK look even more horrible.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> That should make them pretty damn untouchable, I mean if Fulgrim could Easily pwn Guilliman then really what chance does a Pure Astartes stand.


There is no evidence that Fulgrim easily "pwn'ed" Gulliman. We know that Fulgrim won through the use of poison, as opposed to over powering Gulliman and slaying him outright.



> So how is Mortarion punked?


He was beaten by someone who was able to stand against M'Kar the Reborn one on one. The GK's are said to have their gene seed directly from the Emperor, and be Psykers of the highest caliber and Draigo leads them. Finally I would venture a guess that his weapons are passed from SGM to SGM so he most likely had the titan sword at the time as well.



> Also a 100 GK Termies vs Angron and Bloodthirsters at the time the Warp Storm is weakening and only banishing him for a mere 100 years sounds right. 1 GK against a plant full of GUOs and Mortarion in the Warp is BS.


It doesn't say the planet is in the warp, nor does it say that Dragio took a trip into the wrap on his own to battle through an entire planet belonging to the chaos gods and strike Mortarion down. There is also nothing mentioning that the world was full of Great Unclean Ones that had to be fought through.

It's told to us that Dragio is given his promotion on the battle field AFTER Mortarion killed the GKs former SGM. We can assume the battle is waging all around them, Draigo makes his way through Mortarions body guards (most likely Plague Marines) and engages the Primarch in one on one combat and pulls out the victory.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

> ... (most likely Iron Warriors) ...


I think "Plague Marines" would make that statement more accurate. 

Other than that, I think you paint a most convincing picture.


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## Some Call Me... TIM (Apr 3, 2011)

I love the fact GW has changed the view in favor of the Imperium. I truly believe people forget how powerful the Imperium is and its potential. Granted some of the names are stupid. But at least when I started Warhammer 40k I liked the idea of the Emperor/Imperium having some kind of immortal side to them.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I don't think it's accurate to say: "a daemon-primarch is generally more powerful than a regular primarch, so there's no way a GK astartes can beat a daemon-primarch"

maybe that logic applies to regular astartes, but the GK specialise in defeating daemonic entities, including daemon-primarchs 

perhaps, the GK Supreme Grand Master is even stronger against daemons/daemon-primarchs than a regular primarch is 
I think Drago is supposed to be the greatest Supreme Grand Master of all time

am I a fan of the idea? not really...is it totally ridiculous? maybe not totally


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## Catpain Rich (Dec 13, 2008)

I think Draigo's fluff about him in the warp is convincing.

Woah, chill. Hear me out first  The quote on the first page from M'kar's curse reads "victory is yours this day mortal, but know that if ever you set foor upon this world again, you and all who follow you shall walk with damnation for ten millenia." - M'kar the reborn to Knight Draigo. Sounds to me like his success in the warp is down to the curse laid upon him; he won't be able to die until 10,000 years have passed.

If that reasoning gets shot down then i guess i'll have to go back to hating it.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Catpain Rich said:


> I think Draigo's fluff about him in the warp is convincing.
> 
> Woah, chill. Hear me out first  The quote on the first page from M'kar's curse reads "victory is yours this day mortal, but know that if ever you set foor upon this world again, you and all who follow you shall walk with damnation for ten millenia." - M'kar the reborn to Knight Draigo. Sounds to me like his success in the warp is down to the curse laid upon him; he won't be able to die until 10,000 years have passed.
> 
> If that reasoning gets shot down then i guess i'll have to go back to hating it.


If that's the case, M'kar just shot Chaos in the proverbial foot, given the amount of resistance Draigo seems to melt through while in the warp.


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## Some Call Me... TIM (Apr 3, 2011)

Maybe. Though an eternity can be a pretty bad thing too. 10000 years is a long time. There was a short story I read in Heroes of the Space Marine where the chaos marine just wanted to commit suicide basically.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Wusword77 said:


> There is no evidence that Fulgrim easily "pwn'ed" Gulliman. We know that Fulgrim won through the use of poison, as opposed to over powering Gulliman and slaying him outright.


Your right, I will say he was PWN since Guilliman is in stasis from a Highlander Neck Cut from Fulgrim while hes struttin his snake ass in the EoT.



Wusword77 said:


> He was beaten by someone who was able to stand against M'Kar the Reborn one on one. The GK's are said to have their gene seed directly from the Emperor, and be Psykers of the highest caliber and Draigo leads them. Finally I would venture a guess that his weapons are passed from SGM to SGM so he most likely had the titan sword at the time as well.


So its confirm their GeneSeed is directly from the Big E? Its a solid fact now? 
Hell even if it is true, I dont see any solid proof they are all on the lvl of Primarchs or uber Psykers like Ahriman, Mephiston, Tigerus, or Typhus. 

I guess if this sword if half as powerful as Yriels Spear of Chuck Norris, then yeah i can see the weapon helping a bit.



Wusword77 said:


> It doesn't say the planet is in the warp, nor does it say that Dragio took a trip into the wrap on his own to battle through an entire planet belonging to the chaos gods and strike Mortarion down. There is also nothing mentioning that the world was full of Great Unclean Ones that had to be fought through.


Im sorry I never said Armeggedons was in the Warp, it was covered in a Warp Strom by the Khorn Worship. 
Any Deamon World has GDs and LDs running through it. Also Mortarions planet is in the EoT, cmon. He doesnt leave it and most Chaos fluff suggest only Angron roams around. So Draigo beat mortarion in his house. 



Wusword77 said:


> It's told to us that Dragio is given his promotion on the battle field AFTER Mortarion killed the GKs former SGM. We can assume the battle is waging all around them, Draigo makes his way through Mortarions body guards (most likely Plague Marines) and engages the Primarch in one on one combat and pulls out the victory.


PMs sure, but Im going with my Gut that he has way more than DG only since the DG are roaming around in many Warbands and with Typhus Plague Fleet. He should have a small amount with him, but I know GUOs, Nurglings, and PBs are in huge supply.



MontytheMighty said:


> I don't think it's accurate to say: "a daemon-primarch is generally more powerful than a regular primarch, so there's no way a GK astartes can beat a daemon-primarch"
> 
> maybe that logic applies to regular astartes, but the GK specialise in defeating daemonic entities, including daemon-primarchs
> 
> ...


I can buy that a little, maybe his awsome anti daemon knowledge, skills, and tech help alot. MAYBE.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I think the fluff overall is solid 
however I don't like 

- killing Sisters for their innocent blood (it's emphasised throughout the codex that the GK sometimes have to sacrifice innocents for the greater good of the Imperium but this is a little "WTF?") 
- the planet of Birmingham and the Emperor's crystallised tears...
- even other Space Marines are executed if they refuse to be mind-wiped after learning of the GK's existence

but overall quite enjoyable and solid


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> - even other Space Marines are executed if they refuse to be mind-wiped after learning of the GK's existence


That's actually been around since the 3rd Edition Daemonhunters Codex. Specifically, the Apocalypse datasheet for Grey Knights Redeemer forces makes mention of mind-wipes.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> Your right, I will say he was PWN since Guilliman is in stasis from a Highlander Neck Cut from Fulgrim while hes struttin his snake ass in the EoT.


So it's a "pwn" because Fulgrim won? I haven't really used leet speak in a while but normally to "pwn" someone you would need to destory another player with no resistance offered from them, meaning they were never a threat. Considering we don't know how the fight went you have no evidence to support your theory. Hell for all we know Gulliman could have smashed Fulgrim down hard and got nicked by the blade on accident.



> Im sorry I never said Armeggedons was in the Warp, it was covered in a Warp Strom by the Khorn Worship.


I was referring to the world where Draigo fought Mortarion not Armageddon. That world is called Kornovin.



> Any Deamon World has GDs and LDs running through it. Also Mortarions planet is in the EoT, cmon. He doesnt leave it and most Chaos fluff suggest only Angron roams around. So Draigo beat mortarion in his house.


The fluff doesn't state that Draigo fought Mort on a deamon world, nor does it state that the world they fought on was in the Eye of Terror. In fact it clearly states that Mort couldn't return to the material universe for some time after his defeat, implying that the world was outside the EoT.



> PMs sure, but Im going with my Gut that he has way more than DG only since the DG are roaming around in many Warbands and with Typhus Plague Fleet. He should have a small amount with him, but I know GUOs, Nurglings, and PBs are in huge supply.


I didn't say all he had was Death Guard, just that his body guard was most likely made up of Death Guard, and Terminator Plague Champions would be almost a given. I think they would have mentioned it if he had a bodyguard made up of a bunch of Great Unclean Ones.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I dont think your fanboy Matt Ward Fluff would have any mention of anything I posted since you yourself cant CONFIRM or DENY anything on the vague fluff. I see........


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I gotta agree with wusword77 here

we know Fulgrim defeated Guilliman but we don't know how the fight went, so how could we assume that Fulgrim "pwned" him (which usually means one side wasn't even a threat to the other, like in a boxing match between Mike Tyson and a random kid)


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> I dont think your fanboy Matt Ward Fluff would have any mention of anything I posted since you yourself cant CONFIRM or DENY anything on the vague fluff. I see........


So, let me make sure I understand this. You can't confirm anything about your side of the arguments so they must be right, while I am using evidence from the actual codex to make an educated guess on what happened and I am wrong?

Yeah, that seems right. 

Try reading the codex before you post an argument.


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## Abomination (Jul 6, 2008)

I didn't think it was very bad, but by the same token there was massibe room for improvement. Personally I think what GK Codex shows is that Matt Ward should not be allowed to write fuff, he seem to do a decent job when it comes to the tabletop stuff (rules, points cost, balance) but when it comes to the fluff he just doesn't know what to do other than hype everything up like it's 1999 and the beer is free.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Some Call Me... TIM said:


> Maybe. Though an eternity can be a pretty bad thing too. 10000 years is a long time. There was a short story I read in Heroes of the Space Marine where the chaos marine just wanted to commit suicide basically.


Indeed he did. He wanted the Imperial Fists captain to take his life, and I mean that he wanted it real bad. Almost begged to have his head cut off, lol.


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## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> I think the fluff overall is solid
> however I don't like
> - the planet of Birmingham and the Emperor's crystallised tears...


You highlighted many points I agree with. The one above in had me laughing the most. Admittedly many of his names are alright, but Broadsword Station? The Sanctum Sanctorum? And unlike every other main SM chapter there appears to be no mythos behind the names. Kaldor Draigo - is that from He-man? Mordrack - did the writer misspell Mordrake? Inquisitor Darkhammer??? Birmingham got the most laughs. You get the feeling he put it in there as a bet or that characters like Crowe and Thawn are named after his friends. Oh dear...


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Wusword77 said:


> So, let me make sure I understand this. You can't confirm anything about your side of the arguments so they must be right, while I am using evidence from the actual codex to make an educated guess on what happened and I am wrong?
> 
> Yeah, that seems right.
> 
> Try reading the codex before you post an argument.


LOL! I never said your wrong anywhere. I just think you give WAY TOO much credit to GKs. I read the horrible fluff already and its terrible, it comes down how, again, if you want to belive it in Matt Wards awsome writing (and very Fanboy/Vague) Fluff, or go back and try to make sense of the rubbish. Im not dismissing it, as you seem like to think, Im saying its rubbish until I get a deeper, more detail, and better story than "Then the bad guy was beaten with a smile and everyone lived happily ever after."




MontytheMighty said:


> I gotta agree with wusword77 here
> 
> we know Fulgrim defeated Guilliman but we don't know how the fight went, so how could we assume that Fulgrim "pwned" him (which usually means one side wasn't even a threat to the other, like in a boxing match between Mike Tyson and a random kid)


However your analogy is kinda poor since there is no evidence if it was a even fight or one sided. This scenario comes down to who you favored and the ending fact fact. Guilliman LOST. Fact. So there is to conclusions to be drawn from this, it was close (if your a UM Fanboy), or if it was on sided (if your a EC fanboy). Im going with the latter since I hate UMs. Hope this clear things up.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> LOL! I never said your wrong anywhere. I just think you give WAY TOO much credit to GKs. I read the horrible fluff already and its terrible, it comes down how, again, if you want to belive it in Matt Wards awsome writing (and very Fanboy/Vague) Fluff, or go back and try to make sense of the rubbish. Im not dismissing it, as you seem like to think, Im saying its rubbish until I get a deeper, more detail, and better story than "Then the bad guy was beaten with a smile and everyone lived happily ever after."


Unless I've missed it somewhere, there's nothing which stated that a Brotherhood (well, Company, at the time) of Grey Knights that Teleported in to fight Angron were all Terminator equipped. While it mentioned that all was left alive was 3 Terminators, that does not mean that they were all Terminators. It's just common belief as such; and inferenced that they were (Terminator Entry); but that doesn't make it so.

Grey Knights are fucking awesome. They're, perhaps the 3000 plus or minus change (IIRC) of the purest, strongest mother fuckers, out of an entire galaxy worth of terraformed planets (say each galaxy has a billion stars, each star has say 5 Terraformed/Habitable surface, contain say a 10 billion people average, that's at least 50 Billion^6 (or 50,000,000,000,000 people); they're nasty mothers; and to tell 5% of your overall fighting strength to sacrifice themselves is a horrendous action when you have no knowledge of whether they win or not.



> However your analogy is kinda poor since there is no evidence if it was a even fight or one sided. This scenario comes down to who you favored and the ending fact fact. Guilliman LOST. Fact. So there is to conclusions to be drawn from this, it was close (if your a UM Fanboy), or if it was on sided (if your a EC fanboy). Im going with the latter since I hate UMs. Hope this clear things up.


Not really, as you clouded it over by putting on your inference. Instead; leave it how it is; Guilliman's in stasis (healing - which is more bollocks than the meanest fucker since Horus got dragged into the Warp), and Fulgrim is alive and well as a Daemon semi-boob snake.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Ugh wish I could get this damn codex, I want to read the lore so bad.

Can anyone tell me some of the lore for Castellan Crowe? Only read GW's little paragraph on him and he already sounds like one of the most badass characters in 40k, an incorruptible soul, literally.

Lord of the Night


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Crowe is the Head of the Purifier Order, yet is also considered to be it's Brotherhood Champion; his soul is completely flawless; and categorically, there has never been, and never will be a purer person. He's completely immune to chaos; why? Nothing is said - he simply is; he was simply born that way, which is hard to swallow.

The Blade of Antwyr was a sword of great power (aren't they all?), which was capable of corrupting everything it touched; eventually requiring all 8 brotherhoods to unite and stop the users rampage.

It was immune to all sorts of damage, so could not be destroyed by normal means when they finally got hold of it 3 millenia later. Also, rather than dropping it in the equivalent of the Deep Blue of space, as that might let it be found, as these things do; while guarding it might corrupt the guardians. So; instead of guarding it, they decided to use it; by giving it to the greatest warrior of a Brotherhood (so instead of risking a shitty person to carry it, they give to one of their best in the hope he won't be corrupted. RIGHT). 

Then, the sword apparently places him in spiritual peril - which is strange, as it states he's completely immune; then it signs off by him actually able to control a Daemon Weapon, and keep it hidden, when the greatest children of Chaos are not able to control their own; Fulgrim, and Abaddon, for example.

And yes; this is a U-Turn from me. Before I got the book, I thought he was an interesting take on the possibility of a U-Turn over the Relictors.

Instead, I got a contradiction filled poorly written piece of shit filler text for a shit character with shit rules that allows people to play Purifiers as troops, when a Grand Master will do what he does, and makes them scoring.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Crowe is the Head of the Purifier Order, yet is also considered to be it's Brotherhood Champion; his soul is completely flawless; and categorically, there has never been, and never will be a purer person. He's completely immune to chaos; why? Nothing is said - he simply is; he was simply born that way, which is hard to swallow.
> 
> The Blade of Antwyr was a sword of great power (aren't they all?), which was capable of corrupting everything it touched; eventually requiring all 8 brotherhoods to unite and stop the users rampage.
> 
> ...


Hm, now I want to read it even more. See if I agree or disagree with you.

Regardless of what Crowe himself is in terms of quality of character, the idea behind him is very solid. Something that should be explored, the possibility of souls immune to Chaos.

Ugh, I just know that the second I read this codex it'll be the beginning of my Grey Knights army. Dark Eldar and Grey Knights, two awesome armies that I very very much like, more than likely i'll end up with both.

Lord of the Night


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

It's pathetic. Truly.

1 Million must die to train one grey knight and make sure they're as pure as possible.
Only the purest is accepted into the grey knights ranks for possible joining of the chapter; for 99.99999% to die.
But then; The purest of the chapter go to a special place away from everyone else, so they have no chance to exercise that purity.
Only the purest Brother Captain becomes a Grand Master - yet there's no progression from Purifier to Brother Captain/Grey Knight.
Only the purest Grey Knights can become a Paladin, but only the purest can become an Apothecary; who for some reason, despite rarely going to battle is as capable as a Librarian.

Christ, it's like they have to sit a fucking GCSE, and they have grades. "Crowe - You have achieved A* in your purity exam, here's your reward, a title of the Greatest fighter in the Brotherhood. Now, then, unfortunately due to your messing around with M'Kachen, and the need to get Headmaster Draigo involved, I'm afraid, Stern, that you only recieved a B in the exam. As such, you are relegated to the rank of Brother Captain. Now, back in my day, when Grey Knights were fucking metal, we actually had to attain our purity, and sacrifice everything that made us who we were, all for the existance of the Imperium of Man.

Now, though, you get plastic dollies who are born priveledged automatically into the position, and no matter how hard the lower class try, they'll never get any better. Christ, I mean look at how standards have slipped, the Headmaster is never present, he thinks that those under him are incompetent, so is forced to try and stop an entire Warp Rift on his own - Jesus wept, he even thought Guardsmen were better than you and fought alongside them rather than you so called Knights. Next thing, you'll be telling me that you can bring Daemon Weapons into School with you..."

FUCKING SHIT.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Unless I've missed it somewhere, there's nothing which stated that a Brotherhood (well, Company, at the time) of Grey Knights that Teleported in to fight Angron were all Terminator equipped. While it mentioned that all was left alive was 3 Terminators, that does not mean that they were all Terminators. It's just common belief as such; and inferenced that they were (Terminator Entry); but that doesn't make it so.
> 
> Grey Knights are fucking awesome. They're, perhaps the 3000 plus or minus change (IIRC) of the purest, strongest mother fuckers, out of an entire galaxy worth of terraformed planets (say each galaxy has a billion stars, each star has say 5 Terraformed/Habitable surface, contain say a 10 billion people average, that's at least 50 Billion^6 (or 50,000,000,000,000 people); they're nasty mothers; and to tell 5% of your overall fighting strength to sacrifice themselves is a horrendous action when you have no knowledge of whether they win or not.
> 
> ...


I never stated that the GKs were all termies, I only went along with other people who were saying such. I really dont remember if they were all Termies or not, my Armegeddon Dex doesnt really say. Does state they all sacrifice themselves in the end though. 100 GKs for a 100 years.



Lord of the Night said:


> Regardless of what Crowe himself is in terms of quality of character, the idea behind him is very solid. Something that should be explored, the possibility of souls immune to Chaos.


There is people who are Immune to Chaos, they have the Pahria (however its spelled) Gene. Why not give the damn weapon to Sisters of Silence, they must be still around since there is still Black Ships. Give it to the Culexus Assassin Temple on Terra, done deal. Rubbish.


And poor Brother Captain Stern, no respect.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

The last ten Grey Knights did not all sacrifice themselves. Aurellian and the surviving thirteen men of his command unleashed a psychic onslaught against Angron. The process of doing so killed three of said thirteen and weakened Angron enough so that Aurellian could get his final blow in. In doing so, though, Aurellian left himself open for a killing blow as well. Angron was banished, Aurellian died, and the ten Grey Knights held a vigil over the corpse of their commander while Grimnar watched.

As to whether Grey Knights are Terminators or not? During the battle, at least one of the Grey Knights who dies is qualified as a Terminator. Later, Aurellian notes that "... the Daemons closest to Angron towered above his Terminators ..." As such, I think it's fair to assume that at least some (if not all, considering their mission!) of the Grey Knights wore Tactical Dreadnought Armour.

Cheers,
P.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> However your analogy is kinda poor since there is no evidence if it was a even fight or one sided. This scenario comes down to who you favored and the ending fact fact.


I don't get how the analogy is poor, Mike Tyson vs. random kid would be an excellent example of TOTAL PWNAGE!!!1 

I know Guilliman lost:


MontytheMighty said:


> I gotta agree with wusword77 here
> *we know Fulgrim defeated Guilliman* but we don't know how the fight went, so how could we assume that Fulgrim "pwned" him (which usually means one side wasn't even a threat to the other, like in a boxing match between Mike Tyson and a random kid)


no one is disputing whether he lost...the whole point is that we don't know whether he was PWNED as you claimed 
now that you've admitted we don't know details about the fight beyond the final outcome, as both I and Wusword77 pointed out, there's no longer any disagreement:


> Guilliman LOST. Fact. So there is to conclusions to be drawn from this, it was close (if your a UM Fanboy), or if it was on sided (if your a EC fanboy). Im going with the latter since I hate UMs. Hope this clear things up.


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