# Deliverance Lost is amazing. Kudos to Gav Thorpe. *SPOILERS*



## Lord Mephiston (Sep 16, 2010)

Sorry Dan & Aaron . I loved your books, but seems like there's a new Numero Uno in the HH series now. That person is Gav Thorpe, who for his new novel "Deliverance Lost", along with Mike Lee for "Fallen Angels" is the author I'm looking forward to the most in the HH series. 

Yes, I am biased towards the Raven Guard,Alpha Legion and a bit of Bolter Porn/Badassery. :biggrin: . But this book has something that only 3 other books ( Legion, Fallen Angels & Galaxy in Flames ) had. A relentless pace. IMHO at not a single point in the entire book did the story slow down, or have a lull in the pace ( like Prospero Burns, which was a big disappointment to me ). It's a page-turner.

Biggest and most pleasant surprise for me was that this book's main protagonist was Corax. The Primarch himself. Not some pathetic human remembrancer with a tear-filled philosophical diatribe of how the galaxy has changed since the Great Crusade etc. He got enough 'screen time' in this book, just as it should be for a primarch ( again I bring up Prospero Burns, which disappointed me for precisely this reason ). 

In addition to the Special Forces vs. Guerrilla Fighters/Spies type scenario of Raven Guard vs. Alpha Legion, this book is the Astartes vs Astartes book that I have been craving for since Fallen Angels. Both of these Legions are a very, very crafty & skilled bunch of folks. Their primarchs ( one and a half of them :wink: ) are the icing on the cake. A far cry better than Hunt For Voldorius ( not an HH book but it's got these 2 Chapters ). 

The cabal makes a return as well.

In my opinion, Gav Thorpe should leave the HH Dark Angels in the very capable hands of Mr. Lee & continue writing about Corax's legion, which I believe he handles much better than DA.

I give this HH title a 10/10. Along with Fallen Angels & Legion, this is one of the best HH books out there. Every WH40k fan should pick this one up without a doubt. You will not be disappointed.

Sorry I suck at reviews, so please bear with me lol.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Lord Mephiston said:


> Biggest and most pleasant surprise for me was that this book's main protagonist was Corax. The Primarch himself. Not some puny human remembrancer with a tear-filled diatribe of how the galaxy has changed since the Great Crusade


FINALLY, this sounds good



> In addition to the Special Forces vs. Guerrilla Fighters/Spies type scenario of Raven Guard vs. Alpha Legion, this book is the Astartes vs Astartes book that I have been craving for since Fallen Angels. Both of these Legions are a very, very crafty & skilled bunch of folks. Their primarchs ( one and a half of them :wink: ) are the icing on the cake.


fantastic, I will buy this book


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

You're basing his performance off one book? Better than Abnett's three novels?

Get this shit outta here.

Don't worry about the review, it may look shit, but it's actually intrigued me a lot more than most reviews do, which are flashy, but... meh. So congrats, I hope the novel lives up to the hype!


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## Lord Mephiston (Sep 16, 2010)

Guys do remember that this is my opinion only lol. Some might like the relatively slow pace of books like A Thousand Sons, Prospero Burns, Mechanicum etc. but I like my Space Marine novels full of action 

P.S. Prospero Burns was a disaster IMHO. I have a bad feeling about "Know No Fear". Dan needs to understand that we'd like our Space Marine novels to be about Space Marines, not have them as guest characters with humans as the primary characters in the story. That approach is perfect in books about Gaunt's Ghosts etc. but not in boks where we can literally see Primarchs themselves kicking ass FFS...


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## Bane_of_Kings (Oct 28, 2009)

Nice review, although I found _Deliverance Lost_ quite slow myself at parts, opening up with a great bang, slowing in the middle and then going out with a bang at the end.


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## Lord Mephiston (Sep 16, 2010)

Bane_of_Kings said:


> Nice review, although I found _Deliverance Lost_ quite slow myself at parts, opening up with a great bang, slowing in the middle and then going out with a bang at the end.


By pace I dont mean that every page in the book will have an action packed firefight scene. It's similar to what Legion & Fallen Angels. Even if the scene is not one of action but just a conversation between 2 people, it does make you want to keep reading to find out what happens next.

The excitement dosen't die down. At no point did I feel like putting the book down for a bit & doing something more interesting.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Meh, disagree. I liked it, but it was by no means the best book or even close to 10/10, probably a low seven IMO. The book had lots of points where it slowed down, the Custodes were a rather pointless addition, contributing sweet fuck all to the story, as did the Fists in large. I think Gav tried to make it to obvious that Agapito was a potential traitor that it was blantenly obvious to me that it was a red herring. But Solaro was such a massively minor character, along with the sergeant for that matter, that when they were revealed as Aloha Legionaires it was all just a bit 'meh'. The battle at the end was hugely rushed and just didn't pack a punch, I dearly wanted to see Corax in action again like we saw in The First Heretic, but we barely saw him fight at all. Pretty much everything to do with the Therions seemed out of place and after all of it they were just used as cannon fodder then left behind. Every part with Valerius and the Cohort were pretty damn boring honestly. 

Finally and most importantly, Alpharius and Omegon just came across terribly, nothing like how Abnett described them. They seemed so demunitive and lacked charisma utterly. The other Alpha Legionaires aswell just seemed to be much less intelligent, free thinking or pragmatic.

Wasn't terrible, still enjoyed alot of it, but certainly can't see how it deserves the huge praise you've given. Doesn't hold a candle to tge real heavy hitters like Thousand Sons, Legion, Horus Rising, The First Heretic, Prospero Burns or Fulgrim.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Lord Mephiston said:


> Along with Fallen Angels... this is one of the best HH books out there. Every WH40k fan should pick this one up without a doubt. You will not be disappointed.


Sorry, but this statement completely invalidates anything meaningful you wrote in the post. Much and all as I enjoy most of Lee's work, I wouldn't wipe my ass with a copy of _Fallen Angels _if it was the last bit of paper on the planet.

As to _Deliverance Lost_, it is good to see a story from the perspective of a primarch instead of others who are observing a primarch, especially one suffering as much as Corax is at the loss of his legion. This, however, plays right into Thorpe's self indulgent writing style.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Lord Mephiston said:


> P.S. Prospero Burns was a disaster IMHO. I have a bad feeling about "Know No Fear". Dan needs to understand that we'd like our Space Marine novels to be about Space Marines, not have them as guest characters with humans as the primary characters in the story. That approach is perfect in books about Gaunt's Ghosts etc. but not in boks where we can literally see Primarchs themselves kicking ass FFS...


By we you mean you, and by space marines you mean 400+ pages of bolter porn. I hate to tell you this, but Prospero Burns was about marines. Specifically, it was about the Space Wolves. It was told through the eyes of a human, but it was about the marines. 

That being said, I look forward to reading this book.

Side note: No book is ever a 10/10. Even if the book were to have been written by Merlin with the blood of Christ, it would not deserve a 10/10. When you say it has earned a 10/10, you are actually saying "I have a raging nerd boner right now, and I really should have waiting till it died down to write this review." At least that is what I got from this. Not too bad though, just watch out for that.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

gen.ahab,

I have to disagree.

A book written by _Merlin,_ using _the blood of Christ,_ *would* probably earn a 10.

Also...

Lord Mephiston,

I'm currently at page 127 of "Deliverance". I have a hard time seeing how "Prospero Burns" disappointed you so much for its lack of action when, at this point of the novel, there has been zero battle... and Corax's contribution is mostly musing about the psychic pain related to losing his Legion. What's the point of seeing a Primarch all the time if he's not offering what you'd like to see from a Primarch? Caveat to this: the Corax flashbacks (well, the two thus far) have been well done and entertaining.

By this point in Prospero Burns, the Space Wolves had been revealed to be something much more than "Space Vikings", had enabled a desperate escape, battled monsters and daemons, and were in the process of utterly demolishing a civilization of cybernetic descendants of a branch of humanity.

I don't give a shit who your narrator is. There's no comparing the action between these two novels thus far. :wink:

EDIT: that's not to say I'm not enjoying "Deliverance" thus far. I am. 

Cheers,
P.


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## CrimsonKnight (Dec 7, 2011)

*Disappointed*

I just finished this. Normally, I leave the reviews to others much more talented than myself. I'll stick to debates about fluff and canon. That being said, I almost wanted to get on the computer and search out Thorpe for this one. I was entertained and intrigued up until the last 100 pages or so. After that it seems that all the build up, character developement, and possible plot twists were rushed into predictable or what seemed to me, utterly pointless endings of the plot lines. Legion is still one of my favorite (if not my favorite) HH book and I have to agree that Thorpes handling of the twin primarchs was lack luster, mediocre, and in my opinion insulting to Legion. This book had so many possibilities and was REALLY exciting...then it all just vanished. It seems to me he even managed to make the Emperor seem a little like an idiot...

Here ya go son, my biggest project, 2nd most important work, lemme just implant these memories...ah yes, now I gotta go back and fight demons in the webway so if you'll excuse me. 
Wait, Dad! Demons? Webway? 
Yep, the real threat to the galaxy and my greatest work, Magnus messed it up trying to warn me, so I'm gonna kill him. Ok gotta go now. You good?
Yep, thanks Dad.

My 2 cents.


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Meh, disagree. I liked it, but it was by no means the best book or even close to 10/10, probably a low seven IMO. The book had lots of points where it slowed down, the Custodes were a rather pointless addition, contributing sweet fuck all to the story, as did the Fists in large. I think Gav tried to make it to obvious that Agapito was a potential traitor that it was blantenly obvious to me that it was a red herring. But Solaro was such a massively minor character, along with the sergeant for that matter, that when they were revealed as Aloha Legionaires it was all just a bit 'meh'. The battle at the end was hugely rushed and just didn't pack a punch, I dearly wanted to see Corax in action again like we saw in The First Heretic, but we barely saw him fight at all. Pretty much everything to do with the Therions seemed out of place and after all of it they were just used as cannon fodder then left behind. Every part with Valerius and the Cohort were pretty damn boring honestly.
> 
> Finally and most importantly, Alpharius and Omegon just came across terribly, nothing like how Abnett described them. They seemed so demunitive and lacked charisma utterly. The other Alpha Legionaires aswell just seemed to be much less intelligent, free thinking or pragmatic.
> 
> Wasn't terrible, still enjoyed alot of it, but certainly can't see how it deserves the huge praise you've given. Doesn't hold a candle to tge real heavy hitters like Thousand Sons, Legion, Horus Rising, The First Heretic, Prospero Burns or Fulgrim.


Sums it up very well. Have to agree with most points there.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Wasn't the biggest fan of this novel. Primarily because too much new fluff.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

CrimsonKnight said:


> It seems to me he even managed to make the Emperor seem a little like an idiot...
> 
> Here ya go son, my biggest project, 2nd most important work, lemme just implant these memories...ah yes, now I gotta go back and fight demons in the webway so if you'll excuse me.
> Wait, Dad! Demons? Webway?
> ...


LOL...that had me laughing 
in fairness, a lot of what the Emperor does throughout the Heresy era is rather...idiotic
for instance, humiliating Lorgar in front of the Ultramarines...is that really the best way to reprimand your most fanatically devoted son?

I suppose the Emperor is out of touch with "petty" emotions because he's such an immensely powerful, god-like being who sees everything on an incredibly grand scale

his interpersonal skills are absolutely horrid...high IQ, low EQ I guess


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

You know, at the end of the day a lot of this is "agree to disagree", but I really feel like people aren't necessarily taking in the context of some of the Emperor's decisions.

Yeah, Lorgar was humiliated. But you know what? He was warned before. And there were consequences for his choices. Consequences for OTHER people.

While the Word Bearers were taking excessive time doing *precisely the opposite* of what they had been told to do, other Legions were making up for their lack of effort. I imagine other Primarchs were not very enthusiastic about their gene-son Astartes dying in greater numbers and frequency on account of Lorgar and his Word Bearers willfully ignoring orders. If I were an Ultramarine, Imperial Fist, or Luna Wolf (the three Legions credited with the most worlds captured and most conquests in the recent fluff), I'd probably have little love for an Astartes who spent more time spouting religious dogma that went absolutely contrary to what my beloved Emperor charged me with doing. I'd probably have even less patience for their holier-than-thou Primarch whose choices cast an unfair burden on myself and my battle-brethren.

And if I was a regular human officer or trooper in the Imperial Army or Navy, you can bet your ass I'd be fuming mad, seeing as how I wouldn't even have the inhuman courage of an Astartes to console me when my untimely death came about while "Aurelian" was busy building yet another cathedral.

Now, an Astartes can't really say anything to Lorgar. And a regular human officer knows that (with a handful of exceptions) his life ultimately doesn't mean squat to a demigod son of the Emperor. None of them can really do anything about the fact that they have to risk their hides more than they should be on account of one Primarch choosing to do his own thing. But that doesn't mean the situation if fair or just.

Lorgar got what was coming to him. You don't just get to break the rules and vis-a-vis cost myriads of peoples' lives because you think your (illegal) beliefs allow you to do so. In "Aurelian", he boosts the size of his Legion by 50% out of spite and in preparation for vengeance. How much better would it have been for everyone concerned, had he demonstrated that drive earlier on, and used his surplus of men to illegally proselytize WITHOUT slowing down the Crusade and causing others to take up his burden?

Ditto for the rest of those bastard Primarchs! :biggrin:


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## CorvusGuardXIX (Jan 2, 2012)

One of the Alpharius's used the override code peta, orpheus, epsilon, which spells poe. As in Edgar Allen Poe.



****************SPOILER ALERT***************





I was blown away by the realization that the parts from the point of the view of the undercover Alpharius was not just of one Alpharius. I did not realize this until the end. I did think it odd that at one part Navar calls Alpharius a sergeant, but I thought maybe he got promoted or maybe he was always a sergeant, and the author just never mentioned it. I was right on with Solaro An though; I had a hunch that guy was an Alpharius from pretty much the very start because I thought that was something the author would do, and whenever that character would speak it would be strange somehow. 


I liked how the author weaved in this theme that the Emperor was watching over Corax, even though the Emperor is battling in the Webway, and even if Corax does not know it (I'm talking about the Librarian Balsar Kurthuri and Valerius's vision). However, I didn't like how this important issue of Valerius's vision is brought up between Valerius and Branne in the beginning of the book and is not touched upon again for the rest of the book. On a completely different note, I wondered what Arcatus had to say to Branne in the Ravenspire when the two met together.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> You know, at the end of the day a lot of this is "agree to disagree", but I really feel like people aren't necessarily taking in the context of some of the Emperor's decisions.
> 
> Yeah, Lorgar was humiliated. But you know what? He was warned before. And there were consequences for his choices. Consequences for OTHER people.
> 
> ...


Despite Lorgar's actions before being humiliated, it was the Emperor that suffered the ultimate consequences for his actions. You just don't humiliate one of your top generals like that. We watch as the Emperor pretty much destroyed his potentially second strongest legion's (in terms of man power) reputation. We saw how even despite Lorgar and the Word Bearer's turning themselves about, that even his allies on Istvaan had little respect for him. 

The damage the Emperor did against Lorgar was devastating. So much that I don't think Lorgar, had he stayed loyal, would have been able to be taken serious by the rest of the Imperium. 

The Emperor was very wrong for the actions he did. Should he have done something? Something drastic? I would say yes. But that should have been between the Emperor and at most some of the Primarchs. Almost like the Council of Nikea, but perhaps less drastic. 

But to humiliate a being that powerful in front of lesser beings, like astartes, civilians, and pretty much the entire Imperium, was a big mistake. 

In the end, Lorgar suffered his last speeding ticket from his father, and gained everything from true gods.


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

CorvusGuardXIX said:


> One of the Alpharius's used the override code peta, orpheus, epsilon, which spells poe. As in Edgar Allen Poe


Sweet catch. Cheesy as hell, though.

tbh, I was pleasantly surprised by this book, I was going in quite negative after the shambles that was The Outcast Dead and not being a huge Gav Thorpe fan. I feel he can't actually write all that well, and his personal habit of run-on sentences and unnatural punctuation winds me up. That and he's more of a 'fluff' guy than a tale-teller and even then his fluff can be a bit...hinky...in bedding-in to what's around it.

But I found myself praising a lot of his style in this. He world-builds very well, the new things are introduced and described much better than I was expecting- though still a bit wanky - and the links and references to other material are much less blatant and pointless than those undertaken by some others - most recently Graham in TOD, for example. He also did not bad in writing huge chunks from a Primarch's point of view, which can't be the easiest thing to sit down and approach. 

The book has critical problems, all of which have been pointed out. The actual plot is essentially a plot hole all in itself, although it's a forgivable one. The handling of the Alpha Legion was sub-par...I wasn't looking forward to a '2nd stringer' like Gav taking them on after Abnett, and while he didn't saturday morning villian them, they were not stellar by any means. The sub-plots were either bloated or too perfunctory, and some of the characterisation was too one-note. But it's by no means a bad installment in the series and I'm quite amenable to what he does next now, instead of dreading it.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I've finally finished _Deliverance Lost_, and have quickly concluded that I was not impressed by _Thorpe_'s first HH novel.

_AoB_ sums up some of my criticisms:



Angel of Blood said:


> The book had lots of points where it slowed down, the Custodes were a rather pointless addition, contributing sweet fuck all to the story, as did the Fists in large. I think Gav tried to make it to obvious that Agapito was a potential traitor that it was blantenly obvious to me that it was a red herring. But Solaro was such a massively minor character, along with the sergeant for that matter, that when they were revealed as Alpha Legionaires it was all just a bit 'meh'. The battle at the end was hugely rushed and just didn't pack a punch, I dearly wanted to see Corax in action again like we saw in The First Heretic, but we barely saw him fight at all. Pretty much everything to do with the Therions seemed out of place and after all of it they were just used as cannon fodder then left behind. Every part with Valerius and the Cohort were pretty damn boring honestly.


But i'd like to reiterate myself that the portrayal of Alpharius Omegon (and even the Alpha Legionnaries to a lesser extent) was terrible. They carried with them none of the mystery and intrigue that _Abnett_'s _Legion_ introduced to the XX Legion. As _AoB_ said; the Alpha Legionnaries seemed to lack the typical Alpha Legion traits of intelligence, free thinking and pragmatism. Omegon himself seemed amateurish at times and perhaps even rash once or twice. Alpharius's first meeting with Horus near the beginning deteriorated the standing of Alpharius in my mind, there was talk of an element of _"fear"_ and nervousness. For a Primarch that had spent his years in the Great Crusade attempting to prove himself worthy in the eyes of his brothers and Emperor, to suddenly appear so weak and vulnerable (at least to the readers) infront of his brother was strange and eliminated an element of the mystery that usually surrounds the Alpha Legion. Personally, I feel that that scene would have been more effective by showing it from Horus's perspective rather than Alpharius's; thus keeping up the image of mystery and would have showed Horus's suspicions from a more justifiable angle. It also would have aligned with all other mysterious portrayals of Alpharius; from _Legion_ itself to even fleeting appearances like that in _Aurelian_. But thats just one example of what I mean by the poor descriptions of the Alpha Legion. The general portrayals of all the Primarchs involved in _Deliverance Lost_ was poor as well, and no way near compares to the portrayals from _Horus Rising_, _A Thousand Sons_ or _The First Heretic_ as examples.

I also think there was a missed opportunity to really delve into the mindset of the Raven Guard and Corax post-Isstvan. We didn't really get a great insight into Corax's feelings regarding the near-utter destruction of his Legion on Isstvan (beyond a few glum thoughts), nor did we get a feeling for Corax's great regret and despair when he realised he had created monsters (unaware of the Alpha Legion's involvement in implanting the gene-virus) that has him praying to the Emperor for forgiveness and significantly contributes to him abandoning the Imperium after the Heresy. It also fails to tie up some loose ends, most notably Corax never got the chance to discuss with Branne/Valerious about the dreams that brought about the rescue from Isstvan.

The novel does introduce some interesting concepts though; some interesting, others strange or illogical. Firstly, it was interesting to elaborate on how the Raven Guard's genetic monsters came about (as a result of a virus implanted by the Alpha Legion) and that the Emperor himself condoned the genetic experiments of the Raven Guard. The _epilogue_ seemed illogical though, Alpharius and Omegon joined Horus's rebellion (seemingly) at the request of the Cabal, they seemed to allow themselves to be guided by the Cabal's goal of the destruction of Chaos (seeing it as a worthy goal, and one that the Emperor himself could have no longer achieved). So for Omegon to destroy the Cabal's envoy and suddenly throw their connection to the Cabal into doubt seems strange. 

The novel also has important connotations in that the Alpha Legion now possess the genetic material of the Primarchs, and it will be interesting to see how that particular plot point pans out.


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The _epilogue_ seemed illogical though, Alpharius and Omegon joined Horus's rebellion (seemingly) at the request of the Cabal, they seemed to allow themselves to be guided by the Cabal's goal of the destruction of Chaos (seeing it as a worthy goal, and one that the Emperor himself could have no longer achieved). So for Omegon to destroy the Cabal's envoy and suddenly throw their connection to the Cabal into doubt seems strange.


Chapter 7 of _Legion_ 'clears' this up. (Though, similarly, it doesn't undo your criticisms that the Alpha Legionaries were _significantly_ less impressive/endearing/engaging than those in _Legion_.) That is: the Alpha Legion believe in humanity's future. Not the Imperial Utopia, not the obscure goals of the Emperor, nor even Horus' madcap rebellion: they seem to have placed themselves in the position where they can 'play all the sides', which includes the Cabal.

In that regard: the Cabal are the catalyst for what the Alpha Legion are doing, but they're not necessarily the key motivation or inspiration.

If you take Ch7 of _Legion_ (and the 'arguments' espoused in it) at face-value for an honest look at what the senior ranks of the Alpha Legion actually feel/believe, then that's great.

Unfortunately, capitalising on that aspect wasn't really achieved/pursued in DL, which is a fine shame. The Epilogue does, at least, chime with this outlook. (In my esteem, at least.)


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

I thought it interesting that all the so called mutations in the primarchs now seem to have been deliberate on the part of the Emperor. Russ's wolfishness, Perturabo being physically tougher, Alpharius and Omegon being twins _and _ being smaller than the rest on purpose. Those are the ones mentioned, so I think it's safe to assume Sanguinius' wings were for a reason as well. 

One thing didn't ring true for me though. In a scene were Corax is seeing a flashback to the Emperor's memories from shortly after the Primarchs being snatched, we seen the Emp is in despair at the loss of his sons, but then realises it would be easier to create lite Primarchs (SMs) rather than start all over again. I was always under the impression that the SMs already existed, and that the Primarchs were the pinnacle of that process bred to lead legions that already existed. Now we have a kind of chicken or egg scenario.

If we follow the train of thought from _Deliverance Lost_, then TWs and SMs have nothing in common beyond being gene modified. They seem to be from two totally separate directions of research.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> I thought it interesting that all the so called mutations in the primarchs now seem to have been deliberate on the part of the Emperor. Russ's wolfishness, Perturabo being physically tougher, Alpharius and Omegon being twins _and _ being smaller than the rest on purpose. Those are the ones mentioned, so I think it's safe to assume Sanguinius' wings were for a reason as well.
> 
> One thing didn't ring true for me though. In a scene were Corax is seeing a flashback to the Emperor's memories from shortly after the Primarchs being snatched, we seen the Emp is in despair at the loss of his sons, but then realises it would be easier to create lite Primarchs (SMs) rather than start all over again. I was always under the impression that the SMs already existed, and that the Primarchs were the pinnacle of that process bred to lead legions that already existed. Now we have a kind of chicken or egg scenario.
> 
> If we follow the train of thought from _Deliverance Lost_, then TWs and SMs have nothing in common beyond being gene modified. They seem to be from two totally separate directions of research.


Whilst it certainly mentions the XX Primarch being engineered to be smaller, it makes no reference that i can remember as to him being deliberately a twin. And though it's certainly possible, i still believe Sanguinius wings, much like Magnus skin pigmentation was due to the warp, but it could easily be argued either way.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> Whilst it certainly mentions the XX Primarch being engineered to be smaller, it makes no reference that i can remember as to him being deliberately a twin.


I'll route out the quote tomorrow, but I'm fairly sure when one of the Alpharius' is in the gene chamber he notices something about the tank were his primarchs had been that gave me the impression of twins.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Infact it's the opposite. 'Alpharius' notes that his primarchs tank is no bigger than the others, and then considers that the Emperor might never have planned for them to be twins, hence the unique bond they share.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> Infact it's the opposite. 'Alpharius' notes that his primarchs tank is no bigger than the others, and then considers that the Emperor might never have planned for them to be twins, hence the unique bond they share.


I stand corrected. Maybe that's the reason they were made to be smaller than the other primarchs. He wanted a twix, but only had a mars bar wrapper, so you make each twix stick smaller.

HHHmmmm... chocolate...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Xisor said:


> Chapter 7 of _Legion_ 'clears' this up. (Though, similarly, it doesn't undo your criticisms that the Alpha Legionaries were _significantly_ less impressive/endearing/engaging than those in _Legion_.) That is: the Alpha Legion believe in humanity's future. Not the Imperial Utopia, not the obscure goals of the Emperor, nor even Horus' madcap rebellion: they seem to have placed themselves in the position where they can 'play all the sides', which includes the Cabal.
> 
> In that regard: the Cabal are the catalyst for what the Alpha Legion are doing, but they're not necessarily the key motivation or inspiration.
> 
> ...


I am aware of the Alpha Legion's philosophy as portrayed in the infamous _Chapter 7_, and given some consideration I spoke out of turn in regards to the epilogue seeming strange. I concede that point. 

Omegon killing the Cabal agent represented the Alpha Legion's desire to claim the gene-tech for themselves rather than destroying it, which in turn represented the Alpha Legion wishing to be in a position where they could control (Alpharius's only fear being not in control of a situation - _Legion_) the passing of events. It does still raise some minor points though in my mind, the Alpha Legion's desire to 'play' the Cabal (just as they do both mainstream factions involved in the Heresy) as well as still being dedicated to the defeat of the Emperor and therefore Chaos (as far as we are aware - which I note is tenuous); They must have needed to have remained on cordial terms with the Cabal in order to achieve that goal, rather than having them as hostile enemies which could have been the result of outright disobeying their wishes and killing one of their envoys. Directly/violently confronting the Cabal rather than 'playing' them whilst remaining on civil terms to make use of their foresight/knowledge/wisdom seems illogical. 



Xisor said:


> That is: the Alpha Legion believe in humanity's future. Not the Imperial Utopia, not the obscure goals of the Emperor, nor even Horus' madcap rebellion...


That certainly seemed to be the case in Chapter 7. But when confronted by the Cabal and asked to join Horus to defeat Chaos, Alpharius cited the Emperor's greatest aspiration (of overthrowing Chaos) as a justifiable reason to do just that. It was claimed that the Alpha Legion acted in the ultimate interest of the Emperor because their actions would bring about the destruction of the Emperor's ultimate enemy: the Dark Gods. But this seems to fly in the face of the Alpha Legion's dedication to humanity (who would be destroyed in the process of destroying Chaos) and the Emperor (who would also die in the process).

The problem (although I actually think this constitutes most of the intrigue) with the Alpha Legion is that we don't know their initial reasoning and motives, let alone if and how they change throughout the _Age of Darkness_. What I think we can say for sure is that they are not dancing to anyone's tune but their own; we have concrete evidence that they are duping Horus (by presenting him with a flawed element of the genetic template and keeping knowledge of the Cabal secret), the Cabal (by disregarding their wishes and killing their envoy) and of course the Imperials (à la _Liar's Due_). But apart from that we don't truly know that they are aiming for.


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## TooNu (May 4, 2011)

I'm not reading any of the comments in this thread until i'm done with the book but I HAD To post here and say that yes, I am enjoying this book lot's. Well done Gav.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Just finished, and I really liked it. I'm thinking that the Alpha Legion does indeed use the primarch material to create more Legionaries, but I doubt it's as easy to remove the "daemon blood" as that Order of the Dragon(Which Dragon would that be? ) guy said it would be. My theory is that the new batch are Chaos-infused and that's why we see all the Alpha Legion Chaos stuff later on in 32K-40k. The AL never intended to side with Chaos, but eventually the taint became known and the closet-loyalists broke off from the tainted Legionaries, hence why they make cults and look all Chaosy even though that contradicts the disdain the Heresy-era AL has for the Warp.

Just a theory, though.


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

Intriguing points, CotE. I'm perhaps being a little too set in my ways, but this:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> But apart from that we don't truly know that they are aiming for.


seems, again, quite accommodated by Ch7 _Legion. 

That is: their big aim is humanity's survival and that humanity (or the Alpha Legion) is involved in controlling it. No 'God-Emperor', no Horus, no Chaos Gods and, laughably, certainly no aliens.

Simply: the Alpha Legion aren't willing to sell out humanity as a whole. They'll sell out the Emperor. And Horus. And the cabal. But the species? 

They won't even let themselves be in complete control...because there are always other 'heads of the hydra' which are willing to argue or intervene. Even by 40k, it could be argued, they're still doing that. By 40k, really, are they much worse than the 'bad end' of Radical Inquisitors? I mean, sure, Voldorius is a right twerp, but contrast the work of Bronislaw Czevak: in cahoots with daemon hosts, witches, aliens and renegades of any description...yet he's perhaps one of the most gloriously, unashamedly 'free thinking' and 'profoundly visionary' characters out there. To say the character's principled is something of an understatement.

But both Czevak and the Alpha Legion have an odd transcendence of a story's goals, or even a person's goals. It's somewhat difficult to articulate.

Sorry, I'm rambling. I'll get a point one day, probably.

But it all rests on Ch7 being 'true'. (If it's all lies or theatrics, well...anything goes.) As if it's 'true', then as long as the Alpha Legion are calibrated right to be 'self-organising', or indeed, like a hydra...then they can operate well enough to properly have humanity walk the knife edge...hopefully..._


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

You're right, that does seem to be their long-term intention in Chapter 7. 

But they would have to be willing to sacrifice the human species if they truly aligned with the Cabal's aim to destory the _Primordial Annihilator_. If they weren't willing to do so, then they were playing the Cabal all along. If that was the case and they were not willing to sacrifice humanity and align themselves with the Cabal's plan, then (based on Chapter 7) they were acting in the interest of humanity and attempting to preserve the species (and as you said, not the Emperor, Horus or anyone inparticular - but the species as a whole). But having knowledge concerning the nature of Chaos and some of it's capabilities (from the Cabal), it does then beg the question of how were they going to protect or preserve humanity? Without the Emperor, without the Cabal, without Horus, were they capable of preserving the species in the face of Chaos? They were only a single Legion after all.

Chapter 7 makes reference to humanity being an _"imperfect species"_, a need to _"manage and maintain the flaws of man"_ and claims that _"utopian goals are ultimately counter-intuitive to species survival"_. I know this has no basis (only simple speculation on my part) but perhaps the Alpha Legion come to embrace Chaos on a philosophical basis, seeing it as a means to _"manage and maintain the flaws of man"_ and to prevent chasing utopian ideals which they see as _"counter-intuitive to species survival"_. Just a thought.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I still believe it's not very clear and a it conflicting. If they were following the Cabals plan(at least initially) then they were willing to sacrifice humanity to ultimately defeat Chaos. If however they aren't willing to sacrifice humanity, then why side with Horus? Letting Horus win and Chaos control the human race is hardly being on the side of humanity, better to stay with the Emperor than Chaos. And a whole other legion, particularly one as resourceful as the Alpha Legion would be a huge boon to the loyalists against Horus.

So once again, and as usual, the XX Legions motives are unclear.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> If however they aren't willing to sacrifice humanity, then why side with Horus?


What does spring to mind is perhaps to challenge Horus from within his own ranks. Although this doesn't seem to be the case considering how damaging the Alpha Legion were to the loyalist cause throughout the _Age of Darkness_.



Angel of Blood said:


> Letting Horus win and Chaos control the human race is hardly being on the side of humanity, better to stay with the Emperor than Chaos.


According to the Cabal, Horus's victory would have destroyed humanity as a species as well. Which also seems very strange considering the Alpha Legion were acting in Horus's favour throughout the Heresy, which would then suggest they were willing to sacrifice humanity. 



Angel of Blood said:


> So once again, and as usual, the XX Legions motives are unclear.


You're right there!

The Space Wolves recieving help from an _"unexpected quarter"_ against the Alpha Legion may still have a part to play in the tale of the XX Legion I feel.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Space Wolves recieving help from an _"unexpected quarter"_ against the Alpha Legion may still have a part to play in the tale of the XX Legion I feel.


Your not the only one. Ever since the Alpha Legions loyalties became all a bit confusing in _Legion_ i've thought the same. And i'm still not letting go of the comment in _The Outcast Dead_ concerning conjoined souls pulling in different directions, or whatever the actual quote is.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

CotE,

Consider this: Horus is supposed to destroy Humanity AFTER he defeats the Emperor. What if the XX Legion plan is to use their suddenly greater numbers to annihilate their weakened "allies" right after the defeat of Terra?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Only problem with that is they had no idea they could get hold of such knowledge when they first joined Horus. So at some point in joining Horus they must have been willing to sacrifice humanity.


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## Lord Mephiston (Sep 16, 2010)

Re-read the book again. 

I know it's my opinion, but yes, I'm sticking to my first post. One of the best HH novels I've read so far.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm afraid re-reading it isn't going to change any of the points I made earlier. Reading again will not make the Custodes or Fists more relevant, isn't going to suddenly make Alpharius and Omegon more like they were in Legion(which is to say, much, much, much better), nor the total pointlessness of the Cohort sub-plot or any of the other numerous problems I have with it.

Your fully entitled to you own opinion of course. But once again, can't hold a candle to the real heavy hitters of the series(imo)


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> CotE,
> 
> Consider this: Horus is supposed to destroy Humanity AFTER he defeats the Emperor. What if the XX Legion plan is to use their suddenly greater numbers to annihilate their weakened "allies" right after the defeat of Terra?


_AoB_ is right, when they joined Horus they were not aware of the gene-tech that the Raven Guard would acquire. 

But even so, would they be confident enough to take on the might of 8 Legions? Causing a war on that scale post-Heresy (assuming Horus's victory) very much sounds reminiscent of the Cabal's prophecy of a post-Heresy apocalyptic war in which humanity burns itself out...

And even if what you suggested was the case, how would the Alpha Legion intend to protect humanity from the depridations of Chaos without the Emperor, Horus or the Cabal?


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> And i'm still not letting go of the comment in _The Outcast Dead_ concerning conjoined souls pulling in different directions, or whatever the actual quote is.


When I read that comment I thought he was refering to the World Eater brothers Subha and Asubha who did not exactly see eye to eye.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Don't have the book to hand, but i'm sure the quote was along the lines of 'one soul in two bodies' which couldn't really be anyone other than Alpharius and Omegon


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

Child: your 'thought' from Ch7 is almost bang on, in my esteem.:grin:

I only slightly caught it the first time around (it resonated in my mind with the Loken/Sigismund discussion, but little else, except indicating the Alpha Legion were 'up to something' at the end of the book - they weren't siding directly with Chaos or the Cabal...there were shenanigans afoot!). On re-read, I could barely avoid the idea. It's subtle, to an extent, but as you say 'maintain'. 

Siding with Horus: they're infiltrators, to an academic bent. Information is their power, they presumably rely on the loyalists to remain loyal without issue (it'd be interesting to see how the 'wobble' with the Dark Angels, if they were even aware of it, effects their outlook). The problem, then, is wondering why Alpharius didn't just stab Horus whilst on the plinth at Isstvan V. Or bomb it from orbit. But we presume there are 'good reasons' for that, it's not exactly a plothole, as much as an 'I wonder what the reasons were'.

Angel: Personally, I want to catapult much of what I read in TOD out of the canon altogether. Isstvan V _before_ Prospero? Astropaths can _just get bionic eyes_? Luna Wolves running around who didn't rename to Sons of Horus? The reference of conjoined twins just seemed...uninspired. The idea that Alpharius becomes loyal/traitor and Omegon becomes traitor/loyal, whilst initially quite clever feels...profoundly 'meh' on inspection.

I'd much prefer the idea that the Alpha Legion, broadly, is _encouraged_ to pull in any/every direction, just in tiny but important places. That, at least, goes hand in hand with them 'maintaining/managing' the defect, rather than eradicating/enhancing it. 

They're resigned to Chaos' existence and not opposed to it (unlike the Emperor) but they're also know/suspect/worry that Chaos' ascendency will be the doom of humanity.

I know, it's conjectury, but I find it really much more interesting that way.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Only problem with that is they had no idea they could get hold of such knowledge when they first joined Horus. So at some point in joining Horus they must have been willing to sacrifice humanity.


I'm not saying that their intent was to face down Horus all along, though. I'm saying that finding out about this technology (and what it could allow them to do) led them to changing their minds about their course of action.

At that point, they basically decided the Cabal could go to hell. Why? Because the Cabal only proposed two courses of action. The former entailed a half-dead Emperor, around whom a decaying Imperium would gradually fall apart and leading to suffering for the whole of the Galaxy. The latter entailed a maddened Horus ripping everything around him apart. The former of the two _supposedly_ could only be averted by the latter. That's the only reason why - according to the Cabal - Humanity needed to be killed off. I imagine Alpharius and Omegon felt a bit annoyed at the Cabal's Acuity didn't mention a massive Alpha Legion saving Humanity as a viable possibility*. Their alien partners probably started seeming like opportunistic bastards with awesome psychic toys, who were looking to capitalize out of Humanity's tragic civil war.

Suddenly, though, Alpharius and Omegon discovered that they had Option C. They could help Horus kill the Emperor outright. Then, they would kill _him_ as well, since, absent the half-dead Emperor and his horrific, millennia-spanning Imperium, there was no need for Humanity to be killed off.

Could they have pulled off? Yeah, assuming the new Gene-seed project had worked out for them (which, obviously, it didn't). If Corax's data wasn't wrong, they could have been secretely pumping out tens of thousands of super-Astartes each year that the Heresy was fought.

* They probably didn't stop to think that the psychic augurs of the Cabal took into consideration minor issues like the events of "Deliverance Lost". Well, not until they realized that their own recruits were turning into freaks and that their dream of bringing Horus and/or the Imperium down were dust.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> I'm not saying that their intent was to face down Horus all along, though. I'm saying that finding out about this technology (and what it could allow them to do) led them to changing their minds about their course of action.
> 
> At that point, they basically decided the Cabal could go to hell. Why? Because the Cabal only proposed two courses of action. The former entailed a half-dead Emperor, around whom a decaying Imperium would gradually fall apart and leading to suffering for the whole of the Galaxy. The latter entailed a maddened Horus ripping everything around him apart. The former of the two _supposedly_ could only be averted by the latter. That's the only reason why - according to the Cabal - Humanity needed to be killed off. I imagine Alpharius and Omegon felt a bit annoyed at the Cabal's Acuity didn't mention a massive Alpha Legion saving Humanity as a viable possibility*. Their alien partners probably started seeming like opportunistic bastards with awesome psychic toys, who were looking to capitalize out of Humanity's tragic civil war.
> 
> ...


Forging an _"option C"_ for themselves whilst rejecting both paths that the Cabal offered is all well and good. But if what you suggest is true, then *initially* upon joining Horus the Alpha Legion would have likely been willing to sacrifice humanity (as per the Cabal's wish) as they wouldn't have had a viable _"option C"_ until learning of the Raven Guard gene-tech. Or that they were banking on another option presenting itself during the _Age of Darkness_, which obviously wasn't a sure bet and doesn't sound very characteristic of Alpharius (à la fearful of situations that he doesn't completley control).

I guess my point for all of this is suggesting that the Alpha Legion may well at one point have been willing (at least in principle) to sacrifice humanity to destroy Chaos. Which incidently challenges everything we know of the Alpha Legion from Chapter 7, unless of course they could philosophically justify the extinction of humanity as a method of _"managing and maintaining the flaws of man"_ - which doesn't sound likely.


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## Apfeljunge (May 1, 2011)

I think it's far more likely that they either had another Option C (and the gene-tech is Option D) or that they only had a broad idea about what to do (infiltrate both sides, see what opportunities arise to change the outcome). 
Keep in mind that when Alpharius/Omegon made their decision, they at least had to pretend to the Cabal that they would join their cause to gain their resources. 
We don't know what the Alphas did/knew between the events of legion and Istvaan V.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I guess my point for all of this is suggesting that the Alpha Legion may well at one point have been willing (at least in principle) to sacrifice humanity to destroy Chaos. Which incidently challenges everything we know of the Alpha Legion from Chapter 7, unless of course they could philosophically justify the extinction of humanity as a method of _"managing and maintaining the flaws of man"_ - which doesn't sound likely.


I can reconcile this thusly: only Alpharius, Omegon, and a single non-Primarch Alpha Legionnaire were exposed to the Acuity. Their pragmatism and philosophy may very well have been compromised/overriden by the vision provided by the Acuity. I'm not saying they were brainwashed, per se*.

The rest of Alpha Legion apparently has no clue why their Primarch(s) are siding with Horus against the Emperor**. Thus, it's neither here nor there whether their philosophy allows for Option A, B, _or_ C.

* And, yeah, I thought this was the one weakness in an otherwise great novel. The horrific realization of what the Imperium is to become and the ensuing decision made by the Alpha Legionnaires makes more dramatic, emotional stuff there and then... but doesn't survive very close scrutiny. Enough readers have commented about the likelihood of the twin Primarchs to _really_ buy into such a line for me to go over it yet again.

** Incidentally, if I thought it was dubious for Alpharius and Omegon to jump on the Cabal bandwagon, I definitely saw the unquestioning commitment of their Legionnaires to rebel against the Emperor _sans any reason_ as a mighty stretch.

What it really comes down to is this. There has definitely been an effort to spice up the Heresy by making the individual rebellions of the Traitor Legions deeper and more than just a "they all sold out to Chaos!" cliche. Cudos on the authors for that! But the more the lore is established, the more difficult it is for new role to supersede it. The true reasons behind the Alphas' previously mundane treason ("We're going to show Guilliman!") might be more interesting... but difficult to reconcile.

C'est la Heresy!


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Ah theres another criticism of the book I forgot to mention. The Legion not knowing why they had turned. Seemed utterly out of place with the Alpha Legions philosophy of shared command, free thinking, encouraging lower ranks to voice their own opinions and the whole feel of the united Legion. As if that wasn't bad enough, they weren't even given a fake reason! Just as Phobeus said, blindly followed.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Indeed. In fact I remember _'Alpharius'_ musing on why his Legion had joined Horus throughout the novel, and simply concluded that Alpharius Omegon must know what they were doing and seemed content to put blind faith in their decision. As you said _AoB_, this completley contradicts the philosophy of the Alpha Legion which centered around initiative and adaptability. Alpharius was the Primarch who would randomly disappear on the eve of battle or sometimes in the middle of a campaign to make sure his Legion could perform without him. He valued free-thinking and allowed base legionnaries to enact their own initiative and decision-making. When Alpharius signed his Legion up to Horus's cause, how he would have expected his Legion to follow him blindly is beyond me given the Legion's philosophy. Another oversight made by Thorpe. 



Phoebus said:


> I can reconcile this thusly: only Alpharius, Omegon, and a single non-Primarch Alpha Legionnaire were exposed to the Acuity. Their pragmatism and philosophy may very well have been compromised/overriden by the vision provided by the Acuity. I'm not saying they were brainwashed, per se*.
> 
> The rest of Alpha Legion apparently has no clue why their Primarch(s) are siding with Horus against the Emperor**. Thus, it's neither here nor there whether their philosophy allows for Option A, B, _or_ C.
> 
> ...


That works. I guess we'll have to see what else the Alpha Legion get up to during the Heresy until these discussions can be furthered.


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## HorusReborn (Nov 19, 2008)

I think this book was just as bad as the Dark Angels books in the series so far. Gav Thorpe is a sub par authour at best who can't get the idea of proper pacing in a novel right. Out of all the HH books, this one took the most effort and time to read. There was too much Alpha legion involved in this, and reading from the point of view of Alpharius was trivial at best. Nah, I didn't find this book a "Go back to" kind of book such as Prospero Burns, The First Heretic. I feel the book started out strong as most of Thrope's stuff does, but faltered the more I read. The beginning references to the Audio Drama, "The Ravens Flight" was a nice touch which blended the audio into the series more, and should be looked into as a way of doing so for future books/dramas. 

I was let down, yep... I wanted a book that made me feel like I was reading about the Raven Guard who I know little about, not a book about the Alpha Legion spying on them, which made me feel like I was learning about the Ravens through the Alpha Legion's eyes NOT the Raven Guard's eyes. I give the book a 6/10


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## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

I really did love the book, not my favorite the heresy has had so far but it was one I was up into 4 am reading wanting to know what happens next. A very good 8/10 from me. And I like that it was slow passed, so was outcast dead but I loved that too, anyone can do a battle, a great story is hard to do. Both outcast dead and Deiverance Lost nailed this.


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## TooNu (May 4, 2011)

Lord Mephiston said:


> Biggest and most pleasant surprise for me was that this book's main protagonist was Corax. The Primarch himself. Not some pathetic human remembrancer with a tear-filled philosophical diatribe of how the galaxy has changed since the Great Crusade etc. He got enough 'screen time' in this book, just as it should be for a primarch ( again I bring up Prospero Burns, which disappointed me for precisely this reason ).


It is a great book indeed yes, but I don't understand how you can be so suprised at a primarch being the protagonist of a HH book.
If I had to recall the entirety of every HH bok I would go mad but books that include the Primarch as a protagonist would include:
- Fulgrim (Fulgrim)
- Fallen Angels (the Lion)
- A Thousand Sons (one eye)
- The First Heretic (Lorgar)

Along with Deliverance Lost (Corax) you've got 5 / 18 titles have a Primarch as the protagonist. That's not such a small number to then be suprised at it happening again. If you include the audio books also, you've got:

- Dark King and the Lightning tower.
and
- Raven's flight

Just seemed a bit odd. unless you've not read the others of course.


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## Lord Mephiston (Sep 16, 2010)

TooNu said:


> It is a great book indeed yes, but I don't understand how you can be so suprised at a primarch being the protagonist of a HH book.
> If I had to recall the entirety of every HH bok I would go mad but books that include the Primarch as a protagonist would include:
> - Fulgrim (Fulgrim)
> - Fallen Angels (the Lion)
> ...


In the First Heretic, Argel Tal was the main character. Lorgar was there, but we never got to see enough of his POV as a main chracter. 

In fallen Angels it was the 2 brothers.

Again in Thousand sons & Fulgrim, the primarchs were one of thain characterS, not THE main one through who's POV we're able to see the entire story unfold. Corax's childhood has been explained from his POV as well, which is even more interesting.

That's why this book is unique.

Aurelian also counts, but that's just a novella.

P.S. I really enoyed Legion ( one of my 4 favorite HH books ), but seriously, just becaue it doesn't have Dan Abnett as the author, doesn't mean that Alpharius and Omegon are not written properly. They operate just like they're supposed to. They make perfect antagonists in this story, along with the rest of AL's operatives.

Please don't take any offense to this as I don't mean any, but I do sense a bit of fanboyism here. Just because a book dosen't have Dan Abnett or ADB as an author, dosen't automatically make it "unable to contend with the heavy hitters of the series". Just because a book has the names ADB or Dan Abnett on it's cover dosen't automatically make it a masterpiece of English literature. 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions & tastes. I enjoyed Anthony Reynold's Word Bearers alot more than ADBs, which are also extremely well written. I prefer Mike Lee's Dark Angels & Darkblade to what Gav Thorpe & Dan Abnett have worked on, etc...


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Its not fanboyism, yes I don't deny and have made it clear that I believe Abnett to be one of BL's best. But the simple fact is Thorpe didn't even begin to portray the Alpha Legion like they were in Legion, nor the two Primarchs. He almost could have been writing about a different legion, the differences were that clear to me. Pretty much everything that made the XX Legion become one of my favourites after reading Legion was lost in Deliverance Lost.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I enjoyed this a lot more than most in the series. I thought the segments from the POV of "Alpharius" at regular intervals was a good idea though could have been handled better. Primarily, I felt that this was an oppurtunity to expand on the individualist nature of the AL and yet their mindset seemed at times to be that of a blind obedient soldier. 

I found it interesting to see just how blunt Corax became after losing so many of his Legion. The "I need you to do this even though half of you will probably die" moments were a refreshing change from the "Oh no my sons are dying I'm so angry" views we got from others in the series. 


So, far from the best, but nowhere near the worst. I enjoyed it a hell of a lot more than _Prospero Burns_ and _BftA_, but not to the same extent as _A Thousand Sons_ or _TFH_.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord Mephiston said:


> P.S. I really enoyed Legion ( one of my 4 favorite HH books ), but seriously, just becaue it doesn't have Dan Abnett as the author, doesn't mean that Alpharius and Omegon are not written properly. They operate just like they're supposed to. They make perfect antagonists in this story, along with the rest of AL's operatives.
> 
> Please don't take any offense to this as I don't mean any, but I do sense a bit of fanboyism here. Just because a book dosen't have Dan Abnett or ADB as an author, dosen't automatically make it "unable to contend with the heavy hitters of the series". Just because a book has the names ADB or Dan Abnett on it's cover dosen't automatically make it a masterpiece of English literature.
> 
> Everyone is entitled to their own opinions & tastes. I enjoyed Anthony Reynold's Word Bearers alot more than ADBs, which are also extremely well written. I prefer Mike Lee's Dark Angels & Darkblade to what Gav Thorpe & Dan Abnett have worked on, etc...


It's really not _"fanboyism"_ (at least not by most of us). I have given my reasons for not liking Gav's portrayal of Alpharius Omegon earlier in this thread.


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## Lord Mephiston (Sep 16, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> It's really not _"fanboyism"_ (at least not by most of us). I have given my reasons for not liking Gav's portrayal of Alpharius Omegon earlier in this thread.


OK guys, I'm sorry about the use of such words. I aplologise for my language there. I mean you no offense, just wanted to share my opinion on how everyone Gav's portrayal of Alpharius & Omegon.

TBH, this is exactly how Alpharius/Omegon operate. This is their style. It's not smilar to what Dan wrote, as they're a bit more antagonised in this book, but what they did here is exactly what you can expect from Alpha Legion.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

It isn't though. The Alpha Legion, even in 40k prides itself on free thinking, pragmatism and the individuals opinion and thoughts. Yet Alpharius and Omegon have lied to their whole Legion, not given any reason as to why they've joined Horus and none of the Legionaires seem to be bothered by this in the slightest, they just blindly follow them, which is not how the Alpha Legion works at all. Hell one of them even seems to be enjoying taking out the loyalists, which just seems even more out of character.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The plan was being laid out in stages though remember? 

Even Omegon was forced to improvise once or twice. They never even knew what they were after until much later on. Did you consider that? Once that info was gathered, Omegon informed the operatives of exactly what to do, but even he was in the dark up to a point.


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## Lord Mephiston (Sep 16, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> The plan was being laid out in stages though remember?
> 
> Even Omegon was forced to improvise once or twice. They never even knew what they were after until much later on. Did you consider that? Once that info was gathered, Omegon informed the operatives of exactly what to do, but even he was in the dark up to a point.


This. 

AL works on a "need-to-know" basis. Extremely critical & sensitive info is only given to whom it's required & when it's required the most.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

It would be interesting to see what Gav's idea was for the two Alpha Legion Pirmarchs? Could this have been an attempt to show the effects of choosing chaos over the emperor no matter the altruistic reasons?? They are becoming selfish and more self serving.

Doc


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm not talking about not telling them the mission. I'm talking about how they didn't tell them why they had turned against the Emperor, and this is to a Legion who were loyal, still are in there own way(Heresy era at least). And the Legion just accepts it, blindly, willingly and without question.


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> And the Legion just accepts it, blindly, willingly and without question.


Correction: The Legionaries that we encounter who've been selected & approved for deep, potentially very-long-time-alone cover and infiltration accept it 'blindly' and with only 'musing' questions.


That's not the same 'class' of person as the close-to-the-Primarchs, Legion-leading Space Marines in _Legion_. The simple difference in nature and purpose could accommodate that. To casually enforce uniformity without a good reason in outlook and belief would be small minded and crude in the extreme when considering literal legions of individuals in one of the most 'forward thinking' legions' organisation and method of operations. 

The likes of the Thousand Sons and Word Bearers are notable exemptions when it comes to placing their 'Legion Exemplars' in most critical positions. The Alpha Legion, being the 'many headed hydra' (and in contrast to the 'One Book to Rule them All' hat of the Ultramarines, eventually), should almost certainly have many outlooks, ethos, beliefs and so forth.

That, at very least, accommodates the eventual various Alpha Legion Daemon Princes we've encountered: Syndri Myr & Kernax Voldorius.


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## NIKT208 (Mar 14, 2011)

Just finished Deliverance Lost last night. I have to admit, whilst I did enjoy large parts of it, I was ultimately disappointed. There was so much potential with this story, which at points Gav seemed to realise, but never ended up exploring, or at least not to my satisfaction. It was good to see Corax in more depth, but I would have liked a little more exploration of the Raven Guard themselves, especially dealing with the rift between Istvaan vets and non-vets, which was hinted at early on in the story. Aside from Corax I really felt nothing for any of the characters. The whole Agapito traitor bluff was obvious, and as has been mentioned here before, when it was revealed to be 'the other commander' I just didn't care. Gav hadn't spent any time building up an inherent trust in that commander for me to care about his traitorous intent. The flash backs to Corax's youth and the uprisings were good though. The Imperial Fists and Custodes are quite literally there for the sake of cameo appearances, their interactions are only briefly explored (although I did like the IF and RG discussing who would kill Horus). 
The Alpha Legion were portrayed horribly, and I hope the next author to tackle them plays it closer to Dan's depiction. As mentioned before on this thread, they weren't turned into the typical moustache twirling bad guys, but the intellect and respect for their operatives was clearly abandoned (although some could say that that was to show that they will go to any lengths to achieve their objective). The attitude of Omegon was questionable at best, and after the lengthy build up to the guild interaction it is simply swept under the carpet with barely even a line to explain the supposed planetary uprising and civil war caused by 'The Order of the Dragon'. The final act against the Cabal just makes no sense, and the gullibility of the legion to their Primarch's inch deep explanation is just unbelievable for a legion that prides itself on intellect. Although I did like the moment when 'Alpharius' experienced Stockholm Syndrome, but again this was just abandoned when the time came for it to make a difference. 
On a quick side note, I am really getting tired of Word Bearers being the 'rent a bad guy when you need one to embarrass/kill' , this happened twice in the book, and I only hope Dan follows ADB in portraying them as the lethal bad asses they are meant to be, not the incompetent jokes everyone uses them for. 
The battles were, apart from the first Raptor engagement, appalling. The attack on Ravendelve and the final battle were just rushed and felt somewhat lacking. The ending was....'meh', and as much as I hate to use that word its all I can really use to describe it. Unlike the other books which leave either cliff-hangers of tantalising threads for both the traitors (which to some extent existed here), I was left feeling no anticipation for my next Raven Guard encounter, which to be honest I felt before this book (as they are really a secondary or even tertiary legion in terms of canon importance). That ultimately is my biggest gripe with this book. It was a perfect opportunity to explore a lesser renowned legion and make people care for them in a new light, and it just didn't. I put down the book with the same indifference to the RG as I did before. 
Overall the book starts strong, with the tense escape from the Istvaan system, and the tantalising exploration of Terra/Imperial Palace and the accompanying events. After that it deteriorates rapidly. I will be eagerly looking forward to Know No Fear, as I know Dan is an author of superb ability, and despite what people say about him post-Prospero Burns (cant write Space Marines???? Horus Rising anyone?) his writing is in a league of its own, as always I know he will deliver the goods.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Still reading DL. Not liking the Indiana Jones ancient ruins exploration complete with hidden booby traps bit so far or how dumb some of the space marines in it are (this place can't be special at all because it doesn't have a hundred sentry guns placed outside or any form of visible defense) or how plain Corax is. He just seems like a really ordinary person. At times I forget he's actually a primarch. 

And why or more importantly how is an intricate death-trap directly linked to a melting block of ice? ithazsens0rs underneath just does not sit well with me.

Why Alpharius is being shit on by Erebus/Abaddon is another thing that boggles my mind and the way he pisses his pants when talking to Horus again makes me forget that he is in fact a primarch and an equal to Horus.

Him having a cabin on his ship complete with couches and having a talking ball of glass in his bedroom is just plain weird. Was a talking crystal ball the best representative the Cabal could send with the instrument vital to their plans of saving themselves and the galaxy?

I'm into the whole AL being secretive and all but Alpharius hiding from his *own *men by using ordinary armor and fake aliases especially when he likes to be seen as an equal to his men is just plain silly and unrealistic.

The AL spy within the Raven Guard's ranks seems like he's going to abandon the AL and join the Raven Guard because he's fallen in love with them = ???

Each of the Primarchs having their own beach house on Terra overlooking an underground lake that are all side by side? lol wut. 

Why is Omegon himself, a primarch, meeting potential turncoats in hidden basements? That's so beneath a primarch. So far I don't see why his presence on the RG's planet/moon was necessary. And him fearing to get close to some nameless dark mechanicum representative because he might poison him was just retarded.

Feigning an attack then dropping to your knees with a knife aimed at your opponent's groin is a hidden technique only a certain legion could think of?

164 pages in so far. 

From an apothecary slapping a wounded marine on the head like a broken tv and the act actually curing him and a space marine's blood-clotting ability being so effective it actually causes air bubbles to form in the blood thus being potentially lethal (The Purging of Kadillus) to all the above. Not looking forward to finishing the book.

I can't help but wonder if ADB and other authors are able to avoid such blunders or destroying established lore because they visit and interact with various forums, reading critiques by reputable forum posters and taking notes or understanding that they can't get away scott free with how they want to change things up on established lore. 

Or perhaps some of the blame falls on the editors who allow such contradictory fluff/perspectives to be published. Because twice now I have had to endure seeing my favorite legion/primarch become a joke and fall prey to completely contradictory descriptions and when they were the sole reason behind my two of many purchases of BL publications (hunt for vold and DL), it's hard to be all like 'LOLITSALLGOODNEXTAUTHORWILLGETITRIGHT'.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I liked it, was great to see some focus on the Raven Guard and their exploits, hopefully they'll pop up again in another novel. I personally would love to convert a heresy era raven guard along with their abominations, but I guess I'll just add it to a long list of armies I have thoughts on making.

I still dislike the whole "alpha legion" can do everything and anything that seems to be popping up, at least this time they where found to be a bit flawed.


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## Hrolleif (Jan 29, 2012)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I'm into the whole AL being secretive and all but Alpharius hiding from his *own *men by using ordinary armor and fake aliases especially when he likes to be seen as an equal to his men is just plain silly and unrealistic.


I didn't take it that way. I took it as he was blending himself in with the rest of his legionnaires to hide his true identity from the servants aboard, not his own legion. It's AL standard operating procedure to be one and the same in the eyes of everyone outside of the legion to include their own servants. But I do agree with the part about Alpharius' meeting with Horus, thats not how two equals speak. I get why he would be creeped out and apprehensive but not cowering. I did enjoy him slapping down Erebus and Abbadon like that though.


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## Grendelrt (Feb 9, 2011)

So I finished this last night and had a question. I haven't read through collected visions or any summaries of the overall events in the Heresy (on purpose) I just know some general things like how it ends. The genetic material and research that alpha legion steals, does this come back up in the heresy or is already documented? Or was this part created by Thorpe specifically for Deliverance Lost? Just wondering if it is new or something foreshadowed upon later that is already known.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Grendelrt said:


> So I finished this last night and had a question. I haven't read through collected visions or any summaries of the overall events in the Heresy (on purpose) I just know some general things like how it ends. The genetic material and research that alpha legion steals, does this come back up in the heresy or is already documented? Or was this part created by Thorpe specifically for Deliverance Lost? Just wondering if it is new or something foreshadowed upon later that is already known.


Corax tampering with his Legion's geneseed to replenish the XIX (resulting in the creation of abominations) was already part of the lore.

Although _Deliverance Lost_ altered the fundamental nature of said tampering (primarily by involving the Alpha Legion).

The lore was covered in the Raven Guard's IA article by the way, not in the _Collected Visions_ or elsewhere.


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## Grendelrt (Feb 9, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Corax tampering with his Legion's geneseed to replenish the XIX (resulting in the creation of abominations) was already part of the lore.
> 
> Although _Deliverance Lost_ altered the fundamental nature of said tampering (primarily by involving the Alpha Legion).


So the alpha legion stealing the genetic material was not known prior to Deliverance Lost? It seems like a pretty big deal if they can remove the virus they added to the material.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I assume they keep hold of it and keep replenishing their own legion in the aftermath of the heresy, they give part of it to Fabius bile who goes on to use it to make a clone of Horus which gets destroyed by Abaddon.


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## Cowlicker16 (Dec 7, 2010)

Hrolleif said:


> But I do agree with the part about Alpharius' meeting with Horus, thats not how two equals speak. I get why he would be creeped out and apprehensive but not cowering. I did enjoy him slapping down Erebus and Abbadon like that though.


I feel at this point in time Horus no longer considers anyone his equal, everyone,including his brothers is working FOR him and not WITH him. With his whole gaining of favor with the dark gods he is becoming more intimidating to everyone and he uses that to remind them that he is in charge.


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## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

Didnt like novel that much, seems that Gavin's novels after excellent Angels of Darkness have gone this low.

This has so many problems in it, i cant even tell.

- Alpha legion infiltration totally artificial. Raven Guard were destined to die on Istvaan and they were infiltrated. But of course they were saved so infiltration was succesfull. But not by 1-2 guys but over 30 of them.
- Labyrinth scene was too streched out. I get it that its hard to get but Gav just wasted space to create some excitement to reader. He could have just made Emperor give Corax his material and instead maybe have some good dialogue between Dorn, Emperor, Corax and Malcador on that same page count.
- Making of new Marines too fast. Totally unbelievable that they make them popout in a day or less and they already are fully fighting material and even superior than normal Marines. Yes they got programmed during changing, blah. They should have propably skipped a year or two after leaving Terra and then show new Marines waking up. Didnt like so much the idea too that Alpha legion tampered with gene-seed. Always liked more the "original" idea behind all this.
- Omegon part wasnt really that great on novel, expected more from him and other Alpha legion operatives.
- Battle at the end was quite rushed and didnt serve much purpose. I dont mean battle outside since that was only backdrop on what happened inside facility, but that too didnt have much suspense and it was over before it hardly started.
- There was no real suspense of who was this traitor commander on Raven Guards ranks. Algapito was suggested few times but it seemed too obvious and then its one other who hardly got any facetime on book. Gav should have handled this one better.

Some good points though.
- I liked really much Raven Guards escape part from Isstvaan. This had most suspense on this novel so far.
- Gav is good at writing "down to earth" action scenes on smaller scale, he is actually one of the best authors on this. Im talking about scene of attack on Word Bearer's outpost. 
- Whole first scene with Horus was quite great. Nothing more to say about that.

Overall this aint a bad novel, but aint in my top HH 10 list either. This could have been so much more but fell totally short.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Roninman said:


> Didnt like novel that much, seems that Gavin's novels after excellent Angels of Darkness have gone this low.
> 
> This has so many problems in it, i cant even tell.
> 
> ...


:goodpost: You made excellente points there and I could nothing but agree with you. I however think he did the handle of the Alpha Legion on a average okay level, but nowhere close to Dan's portayal. His _Raven's flight_ are together with ADB's _Throne of lies_ the best audio dramas, not counting the abridged audios of novels already written in paper form, as they have unique stories, and don't follow a pattern others have. Come to a new planet, looking for something but finds something else (often some missing people) who in the end turns out to be Chaos inflicted and then in a epic final fight they escape. As Corax cried, is always makes me sob up and it shows the beginning of why he simply left since he saw no future for the primarchs.

I think he could take the Raven Guard in an awesome path, this was his first first full fledged HH-novel. I think we should give him a chance.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The problem though is how does Corax now become the broken Primarch we know him to be at the end. I loved Coraxs original fate, created monsters by messing up the gene-seed(not outside manipulation), breaking down, killing them all, locking himself away then emerging and setting off for the Eye only saying 'Nevermore'. I was looking forward to seeing him break down through the novel and start to become that broken man. But by the end of the novel he's accepted the 'monsters' and seems to be just as confident and sure of himself, with a purpose as he was before.


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> The problem though is how does Corax now become the broken Primarch we know him to be at the end. I loved Coraxs original fate, created monsters by messing up the gene-seed(not outside manipulation), breaking down, killing them all, locking himself away then emerging and setting off for the Eye only saying 'Nevermore'. I was looking forward to seeing him break down through the novel and start to become that broken man. But by the end of the novel he's accepted the 'monsters' and seems to be just as confident and sure of himself, with a purpose as he was before.


Well I can't imagine that Corax's ultimate fate will change, perhaps it will keep knawing at him but he'll hold it together until after the Heresy or even the scouring. He did seem pretty sanguine about the whole thing, but he is devoted to his legion, more so after Isstvan, and it'll get to him.

One thing I did find slightly unbelievable was that no one - not Corax, not Agapito, not the Magos and not the Custodian - connects the Alpha Legion infiltrators and their genetic experiment going suddenly and mysteriously tits up...


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## VulkansNodosaurus (Dec 3, 2010)

I've recently finished it, and enjoyed it, though with reservations. The big issue is, as has been mentioned, the "nevermore" and the meshing of DL and Corax' canon fate. I'll agree Corax still has time to break down, but that feels like it would defeat the point of the sort-of-uplifting ending.

The details didn't feel that artificial; Isstvan V was never meant to 100% wipe out the Salamanders/RG, or if it was it failed in both of these aspects (we have both Chapters in 40K today). But there was disorder, and the Alpha Legion sneaked some operatives in. The Raptors' creation- well, this is 30K, and we still have all sorts of marvelous technology. If there was a plot hole anywhere, it was (IMO) in the fact that the Emperor bothered creating the Astartes at all, rather than make all of them super-Astartes.

The Alpha Legion... there are a lot of complaints that Legion was better in its demonstration of how the XX fight, but I don't quite understand why. Certainly, the AL were better developed than the RG, which ties into my biggest issue with the novel: there just isn't that much info on what the XIX is like. One doesn't feel them set apart that much from the average of the Space Marine Legions, beyond their preferred tactics. There was some subtler stuff on this topic, but little of it is clear.

But, again, I liked it overall.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

the bit i found abit lame was the emperors crappy little trap/store room for the primarch project stuff. i mean you make some quasi-dimensional prison for a ctan shard but for something maybe not as potent but still the most potent weapon the emperor has ever made, he makes something that even a ork could construct. protected by bolters and lasers?! are you kidding me! then it can be cracked open by tricking its cogs and cranks! totally absurd!


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Unknown Primarch said:


> the bit i found abit lame was the emperors crappy little trap/store room for the primarch project stuff. i mean you make some quasi-dimensional prison for a ctan shard but for something maybe not as potent but still the most potent weapon the emperor has ever made, he makes something that even a ork could construct. protected by bolters and lasers?! are you kidding me! then it can be cracked open by tricking its cogs and cranks! totally absurd!


Extra security existed in the form of nobody knowing its location, its contents being secret and the fact that it took perhaps the most mentally efficient primarch to outwit the AI controlling it? And correct me if I'm wrong but did not this labyrinth succeed in disabling a number of astartes? And Custodians? I would hardly equate such artifice to an ork.


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## gridge (Feb 11, 2012)

I have to say that I am no fan of Gav's writing style and usually find his characterizations a bit dull and lifeless. Furthermore, I think he focuses on pointless minutia in an effort to bring depth but instead tends to just bog down the story. This book has not changed my opinion. I apologize to the Mr. Thorpe's fans but all writers will have their detractors as well. The gold standard for me is A.D.B., which I know will not be shared by all. In short I would only recommend reading this because it is part of the HH series and contains some tidbits of information. I, unfortunately, found it a bit of a chore to get through.


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## nate187 (Feb 2, 2009)

Who will stop Horus? Asks the rg Russ will!!! answers one of the guys in the back. Lol nice 

I'll bet you it will be the angel of death. Says a ba. Also I like how corax mentions he could kill curze well was quite confident he could. Also being on equal martial level with horus pre assension (spelling)

Cheers


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Extra security existed in the form of nobody knowing its location, its contents being secret and the fact that it took perhaps the most mentally efficient primarch to outwit the AI controlling it? And correct me if I'm wrong but did not this labyrinth succeed in disabling a number of astartes? And Custodians? I would hardly equate such artifice to an ork.



oh right and theres me thinking that the actual running primarch project had even more security yet chaos still found away of breaking through those defences and spiriting the infant primarchs away. as for corax being able to outwit the maze, im pretty sure someone like ahriman would have got through that thing seeing as he had a good crack at getting to the black library.
and as for some astartes and custodians getting ganked in there, well it been know for a standard human to kill a astartes and seeing as its been known for astartes to kill custodians then a few bolt guns fixed to a wall doesnt seem impossible to kill those guys yet could it protect against demons and chaos marines weilding chaosy powers?! most definatly not so this leads me back to the point of why use such a highgrade security system for a ctan yet something like the primarch project you get a crumby thing anyone can get into. 

i expect more from the emperor, alot more..... or is it just another one of his half-arsed ideas that he doesnt think about enough?!


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