# GW takes a hit!!



## O'sharan (Nov 3, 2007)

http://investor.games-workshop.com/latest_results/Results2007/full_year/financialreview.aspx

If you browse through this site and understand even a bit of economics you can see how badly GW are doing compared to earlier years.:shok:

Why do you think thats so. They say they where "lazy" and didnt listen to consumers!:ireful2:

Use the side bar to go round the 07 report

Seems like a good time to invest!!

Thoughts!


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

I think it is because they charge so goddamn much for tiny plastic models. Seriously, $35 Canadian for the 3 plastic Apoc templates or for a SINGLE Obliterator?!?!?! I bought a three of mine when they were 18 bucks iirc and had no problem really with that. I wouldn't buy one for 35 though. I would convert my own from an oop terminator or something. And no one will EVER convince me that the Apoc templates are worth 35 bucks either. If GW had the common sense enough to lower prices to a reasonable level, they would be far better off?



Moved to News


*The Wraithlord
Heretical High Council*


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## O'sharan (Nov 3, 2007)

Your right too expensive, but wherent they always? prices rise in lieu with inflation


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## torealis (Dec 27, 2006)

and the rising cost of raw materials. look at the inflation in oil prices, that directly affects plastic prices.


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

Wasn't them losing money the reason for their so called "streamlining"?


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

That was part of it. Apocalypse has done wonders for GW though. It's brilliant, really-- they just took some pictures and added about eight pages of rules... but in the process have gotten people spending thousands to get enough stuff to play Apocalypse with.


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

...and clearing out a years worth of stock in the process.

I think Apocalypse, and the way they are selling things for it is brilliant.

I think that GW is overpriced. Even with the rise in Tin and Oil prices, but it still within the realm of being competitive with other miniatures companies.


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## Bloodhound (Feb 8, 2007)

Yeah. Prices have rised heaps since I started. Nowadays, a land raider crusader costs 105AUD. WHAT? :shok:


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Doing everything in their power to cockstomp online stores into bankruptcy hasn't helped their image oe bottomline any. Online discounters are wholesale customers too, and selling at a discount lets people afford to buy into an expensive hobby when they might otherwise not.

If they're not going to price their goods reasonably, they shouldn't be trying to exterminate stores for doing it for them.


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## wolf. (Nov 10, 2007)

honestly its getting too expensive, and that discourages younger players who cant earn as much


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## obsidian492 (Nov 14, 2007)

Yeah, it's too damn expensive! But at the end of the day, much as we loath to admit it, we are spending these ridiculous amounts of money of our own free will. The prices do annoy me though. I end up just buying stuff off eBay rather than straight of the shelves.


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## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

theyre not too badly affected by rising oil prices, GW has about 6 years worth of plastic stockpiled and theyre even using re grinds in the stuff theyre selling atm.


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## torealis (Dec 27, 2006)

obsidian492 said:


> The prices do annoy me though. I end up just buying stuff off eBay rather than straight of the shelves.


by doing this, you realise that you are, indirectly, driving prices up by undercutting GW. support your store. its the only way to support GW as a whole.


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

torealis said:


> by doing this, you realise that you are, indirectly, driving prices up by undercutting GW. support your store. its the only way to support GW as a whole.


Very true.


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## Deathpsyker (Sep 25, 2007)

to those who are saying the high prices are because of inflation, i'm here to debunk that.


Back in 1987, one could get a box of 30 space marines for 22.99 USD. Since they sell tactical squads in sets of 10 now for 35 USD, 10 marines back then on sprue would virtually have been valued at 7.70 USD. Now, running that through an inflation calculator, starting at 1987, and ending at the 2006 fiscal year, which is the most current one available, we'd only be paying $*13.65 USD. 

Inflation, my ass.

Sources:

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi

http://miniature-art.tripod.com/ultramarinestacticalsquad/index.html
*

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/...183&orignav=300866&ParentID=254791&GameNav=10


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## torealis (Dec 27, 2006)

we're not idiots psyker. few things advance directly in proportion with inflation, consider, since 1987, how much GW has expanded.

The costs GW faces are astronomical. Not just floor space, but warehouse and production costs. Remember they have stores in 4 (i think) continents now and a new central hub in the US that cost them millions. Staff costs go up every year, as do rents, GW has to make a profit, its a business. you see from the business report, the very thing this thread is about, that its not a big profit. if we were evil pirates ransacking you for all you were worth, surely we'd turn a massive profit and laugh evilly about it?

GW is trying to make the hobby the best hobby in the world, and this includes offering you the models at the best possible price so that you can enjoy the hobby to its utmost. basically, the prices are not too high, the staff are not arseholes, enjoy the hobby, thats why youre here, its why we work there, heck its why GW is still going, its why GW still has stores.


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## torealis (Dec 27, 2006)

in the US you also have to deal with the weakness of the dollar. thats not our fault.


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## Deathpsyker (Sep 25, 2007)

i know you're not all idiots, i just wanted to debunk the few who are claiming it was due to inflation, and I was bored, so i decided to see how much it actually would be. Additionally, I never claimed that the prices were bs. My argument was solely based around the inflation claim. I agree that there are other reasons, such as the ones you mentioned above, I was just downplaying inflation.


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## torealis (Dec 27, 2006)

cool.

*hugs psyker*

just checking...


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

Lets get some perspective:
*Urban Mammoth*, creators of the Urban War and Metropolis Series of games/ minis.
Here is their catalog for current figs.
http://www.urbanmammoth.com/acatalog
Their figs are allright. Softer metal. Much harder to convert as they don't have the variety of GW. Good example of good quality figs.
Take notice of their prices. These are current prices.

*Privateer Press*: Hordes, Warmachine, etc.
They don't sell figs online (except special figs and parts.)
Here is a parts page. Very similar to GW's bits in type, and price.
http://store.privateerpress.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=121
Prices for figures are approximately the same as GW. Maybe a bit less.
All Metal, little converting to do. Small line of figs in comparison to GW.
Fair quality of sculpts.

*Rackham*: Confrontation etc. AT-43.
Here's CCG Armory's sale items.
http://www.ccgarmory.com/at43.html
AT-43 is about the same as 40k/ WFB. Prepainted. 
Flexible plastic, hard to convert. Sculpt quality varies as does the paint-job.

*Mongoose Publishing* -Battlefield Evolution: Modern Warfare.
http://www.ccgarmory.com/unstmaco.html
Bit more expensive than GW. Prepainted plastics. Fair quality sculpts, fair quality painting.

Lets look at Historicals:
*Essex: *http://www.essexminiatures.co.uk/frames25anc.html
For Normans, you are averaging 1.5GBP per figure. These are 25mm figs, and the quality is ...frankly...crap in comparison to GW or PP, or Rackham. You need a LOT in order to play historicals.

*The Foundry*: big seller of figs.
http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/main.asp
Here's a roman collection as an example:
http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/IR/1/index.asp
8 figs for $21. All the same, questionable quality sculpts. You can get a force to play with for $147. For the Warhammer Ancients Battle game system this would be a tiny force.

There are tons of sites and miniatures manufacturers. Tons of games.
*What's the difference?*

GW produces a full-hobby product: figures that are easily modified, customized, and kitbashed. Average to high average prices. Paints, brushes, basing materials, accessories. Cases, everything you can think of to have essentially three hobbies: Collecting, Painting/ Converting and playing a game (which is regularly updated with player input) in a well developed game universe that is so well loved. Books/ novels, comics, video games, ball caps, t-shirts, key-rings, dog tags, pendants, watches, posters. You have a full time staff who is available almost every day to answer stupid questions as well as give advice. Stores all over so people can play in-store, and get advice and congregate.

I think GW is producing more for only marginally more per fig. Producing Much MUCH more.

Inflation is one small part. Commodities play another part (oil and tin). Paying for the GW game support mechanism is a big chunk.

Yes, GW is a company, in business to STAY in business and making money in order to keep making money. I can't fault them for that. What sets it apart is that it is staffed by people who love the product and want to see it succeed by keeping it fun and growing (opposed to stagnating. ).

While I appreciate folks opinions on GW and the expense of their hobby...folks just have to realize that hobbies are expensive in general...designed for disposable income expenditures. While many people may feel GW is a behemoth running rough-shod over the gaming industry, raking in piles of cash...I feel they are a company trying to balance survival with cool products. I've had nothing but positive experiences in dealing with GW in the past, I enjoy their products, their customer service and all the little doo-dads GW produces to keep me hooked on the games.

*Cheers!*

*El.*


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

torealis said:


> by doing this, you realise that you are, indirectly, driving prices up by undercutting GW. support your store. its the only way to support GW as a whole.


I'd rather support free enterprise and small business than funnel money directly into the pockets of a corporation that is price gouging. GW is a wholesaler as well as a direct marketer. They've already made a substantial profit wholeselling to the online store or neighborhood mom and pop shop that I buy from. Think about it, that discount store or neighborhood shop has to buy their product from GW to sell it to you. And GW sells direct to merchants at a substantial profit to begin with.

It doesn't matter how cheap I buy it because GW has already made exactly as much money off of it as it would have if I had gone to a privately owned game store and paid full price.

Meanwhile, if I go directly to a corporate run store, I'm paying full price and giving them a massive profit...but I'm also helping them to destroy privately run game stores and small businesses.

I'd rather help the families of enterprising gamers (and save myself a little cash in the process) than feed the pockets of an overseas company that's deliberately trying to screw over people like my father whose dream was to open a game shop.

I support GW by buying their product. As long as you're buying and not stealing, you're supporting GW and giving them profit. You mustn't feel guilty for not buying directly from them just because they've gotten greedy recently and are deliberately trying to crush small businesses.

Supporting GW is fine. Funneling money into their corporate run stores, however, is helping GW destroy the industry as a whole.

When was the last time you saw someone playing D&D or Conflict or any non-GW game in one of their stores?
Never. Which is reasonable, because it's their store.

However, what happens when you want to play D&D or some other game and there's no place to buy or play it because GW forced the mom and pop shops out of business?

Support the hobby: Buy from private shops and sellers.


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## Vero (Oct 30, 2007)

torealis said:


> in the US you also have to deal with the weakness of the dollar. thats not our fault.


Which is still considered to be THE money source for most of the world.

It may be weaker than in past, but it has a lot of dropping to do before you can put some pull in that statement.

Edit: The GW store I go to will usually allow games like Magic or DnD to play as long as it's small groups and doesnt get in other peoples way.


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

Galahad said:


> I'd rather support free enterprise and small business than funnel money directly into the pockets of a corporation that is price gouging. GW is a wholesaler as well as a direct marketer. They've already made a substantial profit wholeselling to the online store or neighborhood mom and pop shop that I buy from. Think about it, that discount store or neighborhood shop has to buy their product from GW to sell it to you. And GW sells direct to merchants at a substantial profit to begin with.<snip>


Things are different overseas than here in the states. We (in the states) have a billion small businesses that are game stores. The FLGS for a lot of the UK *IS* the GW store.

There are relatively few GW stores in the US in comparison to the UK (GW stores per metropolitan area). GW stores aren't exactly running the FLGS out of business by any stretch.

That's cool that they let the kids play Magic or D&D in-store. I know some stores allow it, some don't.

The heart of GW is in the UK, and that is what their prices are based on, the GBP. When the dollar drops, it shows, same with CAN and AU dollars. I wish it was a direct exchange rate, but that's not very realistic. The price in the US and abroad is ballparked based on the strength of the currency and to be honest, what the market will bear.


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## Deathpsyker (Sep 25, 2007)

See, I'm fifteen. I make roughly anywhere from 20-40 bucks a week doing a small-time weekly job I have. When I first got interested in Warhammer 40k, and saw the prices Games Workshop was charging, I almost gave up hope of taking up the hobby. But its been sites like chaosorc.com and thewarstore.net where they give 25% discounts that has enabled me to get into this hobby, and become affordable with a little bit of conservative spending here and there. Games Workshop already made their profit by selling to the retailer, and as long as these independent stores are around, more people like me will be able to get into the hobby, which is why I'm going to continue supporting them.

Unless your parents are buying for you, and honestly, why the hell would they, its pretty damn impossible for a guy to get into this game unless you have some steady and substantial stream of income.


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

I imagine it is pretty tough for the younger folks to get started in the game without parental backing or utilizing sites like The Warstore etc. I figure a LOT of the younger players and those with more limited resources are stuck using ebay and bartertown, as well as discount stores and the like.


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## Deathpsyker (Sep 25, 2007)

I've had to been pretty frugal, I'll admit. Ebaying models always helps though.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Well, let's put it this way.

There used to be five mom and pop game stores in my area.

WOTC opened its corporate store in the local mall and killed two of them, including my dad's store. They sold all the same products at the same prices, but they had the cash to afford a prime location (the mall), and because they got their most popular products (magic, D&D, etc) basically for free from the parent company, they were making huge profits on the stuff they sold.

The mom and pop shops couldn't keep up with them and about half of them died.

Then Hasbro decided the stores weren't making as much money as they hoped, as fast as they'd like so they sold them off after the damage was done, sold to other companies like Gamekeeper and GameOn.

Then the GW stores moved in. With Magic on the decline, Warhammer is the big popular thing out here. Now again we have corporate backing to buy prime locations in strip malls and the like where the local shops couldn't really afford to get a toe in. And now *all* their inventory is free, so everything they sell is pure profit.

So now the other mom and pop stores are closed, except one.

In my area we have one privately run game store, one corporately held GameOn store in the mall and two GW bunkers.

So maybe the Goblin Hole in East Nowhere Kentucky is safe, for now. But the metropolitan areas are being saturated. And I've never seen the local GW stores letting anyone play anything but GW games, and they certainly don;t sell anything else.


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## torealis (Dec 27, 2006)

*flexes his fingers*

right...

as chimp has said already, the weakness of the dollar (or strength of the sterling) is a factor because the business is UK based. Prices are set in sterling and the movement of currency is reflected in the rising prices. This is not GW's fault.

GW sell at wholesale to franchised stores and makes a profit at wholesale price. This profit is not huge 'per box' and the reason it can do so is because it does not have to pay the staff and rent etc costs for the store. Costs for smaller business are lower and they can thus afford to sell at a discount and still make a profit. This is doubly true for online retailers. GW itself, as explained, has enormous overheads. Thus, the prices are higher. This reflects the specialist treatment and equipment GWs should have. Chimp put it nicely on chat last night, GW is like the full meal deal. You pay extra and you get it all. Now i understand that some of your 'mom and pop' stores are awesome, but GW stores should be that step above. And sure, you can't (or shouldnt be able to) play Magic or Hordes there, but... well... tough. its their shop.

So yes, by buying through online stores or M&P stores, you are supporting the hobby, but not in as direct and measurable way as going to your local store.


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## Flam (Feb 7, 2007)

One thing to keep in mind is that when someone says, "40K's too expensive," they're not necessarily calling GW an evil empire. 40K figures ARE too expensive, whether it's GW's fault or not. Inflation, oil prices, WHATEVER...at the end of the day, I find myself putting off that extra Carnifex purchase simply because it's simply too expensive. Not pointing any fingers, it's just a fact. 

Boxed armies and plastic WFB regiments help out a lot, though. Ten years ago, a regiment of 20 Plague Monks would have cost a small fortune, because they were exclusively metal. But thanks to plastic, now it's like 20 bucks. So in some ways, GW's actually being far more accommodating than the old days.


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## torealis (Dec 27, 2006)

Youre still not quite getting it flam. Yes, GW is expensive, but its not too expensive. if it were too expensive, it would be GW pricing themselves out of the market, profiteering etc. Its expensive because it has to be. With GW such that it is, it cannot reduce prices. They are therefore not 'too' expensive. That suggests that they are overly so.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

Expense is always a relative thing....whats expensive to you might not be expensive to me. The initial start costs of the hobby are high, but if you compare that to the cost of starting to play with an xbox360? You can easily get started in the hobby and have a proper full sized army and everything you need to play for less than the cost of an xbox360 and say 3 games. Look at the production costs of cd's or dvd's compared to how much you pay for them. Are gw products really expensive in comparison...nowhere near. 
Also remember that GW is a morally defensible business. It was founded in the uk and everything is produced in the uk. How many business' will do that. When you buy your cd's and computers how many have been produced in some third world country where the people doing the work get paid just enough to live and little more.


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

Well...if you look inside your books, they are printed in china.
Sorry man.

Expense is all relative. You have to judge the expense of the hobby by like products, not by the dollar/ GBP amount. You have to look at the miniatures hobbies at a whole in order to judge. This is regardless of what things cost a year ago to 20 years ago because it makes no difference.

Compare GW products to any other miniature/ toy soldier company out there. GW is in the Toy Soldier business. Period. They are in business to manufacture and sell toy soldiers. Everything else is made to support and expand upon that business; from novels to video games.

So ...toy soldiers.

In comparison to every other lead, pewter and plastic toy soldier manufacturer...GW creates a top notch product, with top notch support, with the "stuff" to help people get in and stay in the hobby (hobbies). 

Do your research.
What other company does as much for the hobby? Seriously. What other company puts out anywhere NEAR as much stuff to keep people interested in the hobby...from video games, to dedicated stores, to paints, to brushes, to trinkets, to novels...ad infinitum.

What other company puts out the same quality product? When I talk about quality, I mean from end to end quality: from having cool sculpts, to having lots of variety of figures, and figures with extra bits, to customer service.

Now compare the products to the other companies and compare the price differences.
Thing is the price differences are small. In many cases negligible. The GW prices are high, so are everyone elses. The prices are competitive with the market. But also consider what all you have available for that very same price (or maybe a little more).

In comparison, you are getting WAY more for your money with GW products.

Now, GW stores in the US. There ARE some areas that have stores, most do not.
http://us.games-workshop.com/shopping/gw-stores.asp

Take a look at the list. I live in Wisconsin now (formerly I lived on Capitol Hill in Seattle and worked in Bellevue, a couple blocks from the Seattle Bunker). There is ONE GW store for the entire state. MANY states have no GW stores at all. 17 states have GW stores. Only 17, and most of those only have one store for the entire state (however some MAJOR Metropolitan areas in Washington (Seattle Area), California (LA Area), Illinois (Chicago area) have greater concentrations (of people and game stores...as well as GW stores). Is this unreasonable? (I imagine it is if your folks had a game store and lost it. I understand that. The gaming industry is taking a dive across the nation, all game stores are hit hard as there has been less disposable income...but this is across the board.)

My point in this (as I'm starting to ramble on and on...) is that (in the case of looking at GW's pricing) compare with the other companies doing the same thing, the products they produce (all of the products), the service they give, and what you get for that Dollar/ GBP.

In the case of GW Stores versus the FLGS (friendly local game store) or Mom and Pop store that sells games (stockists)...you have to look at the gaming industry at a whole: roleplaying, miniatures, card games, board games...and the major dive the industry has taken in the past 10 years. Stores are going out of business right and left...in areas where there IS NO COMPETITION (much less areas where competition is fierce).

[As an aside, I'm not a GW employee and have no ties to GW other than as a collector of GW figures. I just like a good debate once in a while and tend towards the "moderate" and "objective" sides of arguments. I'm glad nobody has gone off the deep end on this...I think this thread is a good one and a fine example of adult discussion over a complicated subject without resorting to flames. Cheers fellas!]


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Torealis, by 'supporting the hobby' I mean the *entire* gaming hobby, not just GW.

GW stores are choking off and killing local private game stores.
Stores that cell and allow people to play *any* game.

I support GW to the extent that I buy their products.

But I will not support them in their attempts to monopolize the gaming industry by destroying small business. 

I see no reason why I should reward GW for destroying people's livelihoods and making it hard for me to play other games I enjoy, by paying inflated prices for products they're selling to themselves.

I like playing other games, and I support small business.
So I will continue to support the gaming hobby by giving my business to stores owned by real people who need my cash, rather than an overseas corporation that goes out of its way to destroy competition, even when said competition is selling their own product.

I'm supporting the hobby that GW is trying to strangle to death.

And as to "They can't afford to lower their prices" line of bullshit...

If other stores and online shops can afford to sell GW merch at a discount *after* they've already purchased it from GW at wholesale costs, then GW themselves can damned well afford to lower their prices

Standard wholesale discount in the gaming world is 40% This means every gamestore not owned by GW pays $60 for a $100 set. It hurts, but they can sell that set at $80 and still make $20 in profit. Considering the game is in high demand and people are actively seeking discounts for it (because of the aforementioned price) they can usually make up the loss in volume.

GW stores and Direct Order services get their merch for free. It's sent direct from the factory at no cost to the store. Yes, it costs to manufacture the item, but the cost is literally pennies per sprue. Let's be over-generous and assume it costs them 10% of retail to manufacture the item.

This means at straight retail, GW makes $90 selling a $100 box and your friendly local merchant makes $40.

If your independent seller can afford to cut his profit in *half* to sell at $80, then you bet your ass GW can afford to shave off another 10%

If GW only sold wholesale, then I would believe that they couldn't afford to lower their prices. But they're expanding more and more into direct selling and crushing privately owned stores and websites in the process. They could sell for less if they wanted to.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

I'm sorry galahad but absolutely nothing you have said in this thread has made any sense to me whatsoever.

What makes you think gw gets its products for free??? And your understanding of manufacturing costs seem very....inaccurate.

also in what way does gw strangle out small business if its so unaffordable?


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## torealis (Dec 27, 2006)

Galahad said:


> GW stores and Direct Order services get their merch for free. It's sent direct from the factory at no cost to the store. Yes, it costs to manufacture the item, but the cost is literally pennies per sprue. Let's be over-generous and assume it costs them 10% of retail to manufacture the item.


I'm going to address most of your points, but im going to start with this one. As jigplums says, it makes no sense.

Materials aside (which are cheap, but not so minute as to be ignored) there are vast costs behind the manufacture and supply of GWs goods. Aside from the running of the factory, the payment of the goods company to freight the deliveries to the stores, the staff costs and rents of the stores, the running costs of the stores, the RnD of new models, the purchase and manufacture of new moulds, the development/purchase of new technology to better produce the models, the international shipping costs of the chinese manufactured items, the Head Office staff costs, there are few costs. Youre right.

Remember that GWs _sole_ source of income is the models sold through various outlets. It makes a profit from the items it sells at wholesale. This profit has to take into account all of the above, minus the significant cost of GWs own stores, thus the discount is possible. Indie stores do not have to sell at discounts, but can afford to because their costs are significantly lower than GWs. GW also makes a profit from the items it sells at retail, the prices are higher to reflect the cost of running the retail chain. Were GW an online only business (which i suspect its accountants would prefer) it would save millions and be able to offer cheaper products. But who wants that? I for one want a store where i can go and play my favourite games with knowledgable and well-trained staff.

In conclusion, GW does not make a 90% profit on the items it sells in the stores. The figure is far, far lower. Once again, i refer you to the business report that started this thread. If a 90% profit was made per item, you think we'd be doing this badly? Think. 



> Torealis, by 'supporting the hobby' I mean the *entire* gaming hobby, not just GW.
> 
> GW stores are choking off and killing local private game stores.
> Stores that cell and allow people to play *any* game.


Right, if GW stores wanted to choke off local private gaming stores, why would they supply them with GW goods and allow them to sell them at their own prices. 
GW could impose prices on them if it so wished, or withdraw its support entirely. The support network for indie stores is excellent, and if a store owner was dissatisfied, why continue to stock GW stuff?



> But I will not support them in their attempts to monopolize the gaming industry by destroying small business.


Sort of addressed above, but one extra point, if an area does enough GW business that it could support a GW store, why shouldnt GW put them there? Because of the little guy? Thats just shit business sense. GW has to think about itself as a business, or it will die. 



> I like playing other games, and I support small business.
> So I will continue to support the gaming hobby by giving my business to stores owned by real people who need my cash, rather than an overseas corporation that goes out of its way to destroy competition, even when said competition is selling their own product.


bully for you. but youre making the assumption that GW doesnt need your cash. I'm also stultified by your 'overseas corporation' line, granted its based in the UK, but thats hardly undercutting US business. Fact is, GW does what it does better than anyone else. it doesnt go out of its way to destroy competition, it just runs as a business and tries to do the best it can, just like smaller indie stores. it supports them by letting them have its products in the store (which i assume make your indie friends a tidy profit, otherwise why carry them?) and allows them to sell at their own price.

problem?


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

*preamble: We've done pretty good so far, so lets not start assuming any "tone" here. My tone for this should be assumed as friendly and conversational. Just an FYI before you read further...just to avoid any misreadings.



Galahad said:


> Torealis, by 'supporting the hobby' I mean the *entire* gaming hobby, not just GW.
> 
> GW stores are choking off and killing local private game stores.
> Stores that cell and allow people to play *any* game.


Untrue. The gaming industry is in a slump and has been for going on ten years. GW stores are promoting GW products and trying to get it to a broad spectrum of players...which is an attempt to build UP the industry.



> I support GW to the extent that I buy their products.
> 
> But I will not support them in their attempts to monopolize the gaming industry by destroying small business.


Untrue, you are asserting that GW is focusing on becoming a monopoly. You are making assumptions about intent. That is your perspective, but another (equally valid) perspective is that GW is attempting to keep the gaming industry alive and viable for the future by getting more people in to the games.



> I see no reason why I should reward GW for destroying people's livelihoods and making it hard for me to play other games I enjoy, by paying inflated prices for products they're selling to themselves.


I believe this is a personal bias (opposite of Torealis' bias actually). That's my take. GW isn't destroying anyone's lives. Actually GW is doing more than any game company to keep the gaming industry alive.

GW doesn't sell products to itself. It manufactures the product, ships it, pays wages and benefits to employees across the world...and sells the product.



> I like playing other games, and I support small business.
> So I will continue to support the gaming hobby by giving my business to stores owned by real people who need my cash, rather than an overseas corporation that goes out of its way to destroy competition, even when said competition is selling their own product.
> 
> I'm supporting the hobby that GW is trying to strangle to death.


Again, I believe this to be your perspective on the matter and biased due to your own personal history with GW. GW supports stockists. My FLGS just shipped back all the GW stock that wasn't moving and was refunded for it. How many game companies do that? All that LotR stock that sat for ages and didn't move, GW took it all back and issued a refund. I don't know about you, but that sounds like pretty good support from a manufacturer to me. It certainly doesn't sound like a company trying to strangle the hobby.



> And as to "They can't afford to lower their prices" line of bullshit...


Why should they? They are at a competitive price point in comparison to the other manufacturers.



> If other stores and online shops can afford to sell GW merch at a discount *after* they've already purchased it from GW at wholesale costs, then GW themselves can damned well afford to lower their prices


CCG Armory and The Warstore take a risk by selling at huge discounts. They depend on selling in massive bulk to make up their costs. Your FLGS usually sells at retail or possibly with Game Day discounts because that's whay THEY can afford...because they don't have the bulk sales. If you want to know what is killing the brick and mortar stores...it's online sales. Not just GW, but discount shops like The Warstore and CCG Armory.



> Standard wholesale discount in the gaming world is 40% This means every gamestore not owned by GW pays $60 for a $100 set. It hurts, but they can sell that set at $80 and still make $20 in profit. Considering the game is in high demand and people are actively seeking discounts for it (because of the aforementioned price) they can usually make up the loss in volume.


 Yeah, this sounds about standard.



> GW stores and Direct Order services get their merch for free. It's sent direct from the factory at no cost to the store. Yes, it costs to manufacture the item, but the cost is literally pennies per sprue. Let's be over-generous and assume it costs them 10% of retail to manufacture the item.


This is where you are going WAY wrong. Remember, that GW is one entity, the sprues cost money, (pennies), shipping costs money (pennies), the people to ship it costs money (dollars), the advertising, the packaging, the benefits/ insurance, the legal fees, the customs and taxes, the rent on the location, the lights, water, sewage, paints, books, videogames, computers, internet connection, pizza on Fridays...all costs pennies to dollars a piece...but you have to realize what all goes in to an individual sprue...a LOT of support and money. 



> This means at straight retail, GW makes $90 selling a $100 box and your friendly local merchant makes $40.


...and out of that $90 how much goes to lawyers, manufacturing, shipping, benefits, ISP, rent, electricity, ad infinitum? 

You're not seeing that it's not as simple as materials to make a sprue and retail cost.

There is an entire machine that gets the materials, transforms materials to product, markets that product, ships it, sells it. That machine costs a LOT of money. Without that machine you wouldn't have product, your product would be very few items, the quality would suck or if not, it couldn't get to market.



> If your independent seller can afford to cut his profit in *half* to sell at $80, then you bet your ass GW can afford to shave off another 10%
> 
> If GW only sold wholesale, then I would believe that they couldn't afford to lower their prices. But they're expanding more and more into direct selling and crushing privately owned stores and websites in the process. They could sell for less if they wanted to.


Thing is here, why should they? They are competitive with the market. Look at Rackham, Privateer Press, Mongoose, WotC, White Wolf, Chaosium, Fanpro (now Catalyst Labs) and all the other manufacturers. They all make products and sell direct as well as through retailers.

The goal is to make a little profit, and put the rest back in to the machine so they can produce a quality product and superior service in order to insure viability for the future. That means the gaming industry must survive else they work themselves out of business. It is in GW's (and every manufacturer's) best interests to do whatever they can to stimulate sales by whatever means necessary, to get people in to the hobby, to spread the hobby as much as possible...and I firmly believe that with the brains and retainer fees, bean counters and lawyers involved in GW's machine, that they might just be aware of this and may just be moving in that very direction.

Make sense?

I very seriously doubt GW is the evil empire with a goal of becoming a monopoly (why would they when they know as well as anyone that they have a better chance of sales in a free market with competitors) or trying to single out and crush the little stores (the vast majority of stores that sell GW product are independant stockists).

My own perspective is that GW wants to stay alive by keeping the industry alive, and is doing what they can to insure their own survival by insuring the survival of the gaming industry. Their methods are to spread as far as possible, get the product to as many as possible and maintain the single highest standard in product and support.

I don't think that is evil...it's a strong sense of self-preservation, which is good business sense in my book.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

I think I take a middle of the road approach between the other opinions expressed here. I agree with Tor and El in that GW is a company that needs to make money to survive, puts out an excellent product, etc. But I also agree with Gal as well in that GW makes it hard on smaller businesses. I have spoken with the owners of a few here that won't carry GW stuff simply because GW's pricing arrangement with them prevents them from making a profit worth carrying the product for. I also agree that GW could stand to lower its prices, maybe not drastically, but a bit. As I said above $35 for ONE Obliterator is ridiculous but $25 isn't too bad. If GW's prices were a tad lower they would sell far more product which in the end would make them more money. Again, they don't have to drastically reduce prices but they would be better off it they did as it would allow more people to get into this hobby and continue to purchase GW's products.


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

I can't argue with that.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Maybe I am biuased by my personal; experiences with them. Maybe I got overexcited.

But I know what I know. Cost issues aside, GW *is* trying to break the back of independent game stores, so they can replace them with their own stores and make a greater profit than they would make wholesaling.

Ever since GW stopped dealing with wholesalers and started forcing stores to buy direct from them, their pricing and order mandates became oppressive. My dad had to quit selling GW products because they required a *huge* initial order and issued large minimum orders. Not to mention requiring that stores buy certain items, whether they want them or not.

Maybe policy has changed in recent years, but this is what it was back then. We couldn't afford the initial buy-in, and the large minimum orders were impractical for our small store.

Meanwhile, they've gone out of their way to destroy online stores (which are still small businesses, and still run by people, and are often extensions of brick and mortar stores) by forcing ridiculous and grossly unfair practices on them.

Ever wonder why you can't put a box of space Marines, or a new Codex into your shopping cart at the Warstore? Ever wonder why there's no product pictures or online catalogue for non-bitz GW stuff?

That's because GW won't let them. Their official policy is that nobody but *their* online store is allowed to have pictures of their products on their website, or allow you to purchase them via secure shopping cart.

Instead, independent merchants are forced to take orders via phone, mail and e-mail and aren't allowed to have pictures of the items. This is the policy that forced battlewagon bits to go under (and be bought out by warstore). It's inconvenient, it's not secure, and it makes many people gunshy about buying from online merchants because they don't have the ease and security of a shopping cart. It makes the store look flimsy and unprofessional. Should I trust my order info to some guy on the other end of the phone? People feel better about giving their credit card to a machine than a live person. Whether or not that;s rational, it;s true. These policies are deliberately designed to damaged online stores, or brick and mortar stores who happen to sell online as well.

And they're using monopolistic tactics to do it. Their products are hot now and if you want to sell them, you have to do it their way. If you don;t do it their way, they pull the plug and you lose a big chunk of business.

Perhaps it's a uniquely American standpoint, but I always felt that after I purchase something, I have the right to do whatever the hell I want with it, without fear of repercussions from the guy who sold it to me. If I buy a box of space marines from GW, I should be able to sell it to whomever I want, however I want, for whatever price I want.

It used to be that was the law in the US to prevent price-fixing and other dodgy business practices. Though now some of those laws have been repealed

Yes, GW is doing a lot to keep gaming afloat.
So long as you only play THEIR games. I'm not going to say that's a bad goal for them. But it;s not a goal I support

I like their games and I like their products, so I support them to the extent that I buy their goods. But I also like playing other games. And if I want to keep playing other games, then I need to support stores and merchants who *sell* other games.

All around me privately owned stores are dying off and GW stores are popping up in their place.
This is fine, if all I cared about was warhammer, and GW was generously hiring up the families whose livelihoods were just taken away. But that's not the case.

I like their product, but I don't like their practices.
If you want to support GW, buy their products. But don't let any redshirt fanboy try and guilt trip you into buying from a direct store because you're not supporting them enough otherwise.


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

Yeah I aggree with Gal on this.. GW while it may have us addicted to a game which is slowly progressing into a less fun game has some of the worst business practices that no one likes. They have been pricing figures less and less on what they are actually worth and increasingly more on what they want us to play. 

Prime example...

Chaos... It becomes increasingly more price efficient to give an Icon to larger units than it does for the smaller units. They did away with all the "favored" number squads for Legion armies. A troops squad has to number 10 models or more to get a heavy weapon. Daemons which were previously part of this Codex are now part of a diffrent codex which you will be forced to buy later on if you wish to use them (at least in a tournament).

The new Orks... To purchase the new special weapons for the new orks its on a 1 for 10 requirement. So a lot of people will be forced to buy more orks to field the same equipment they originally fielded.

Dark Angles... Combat squads... All the normal squads have to be 5 or 10 man.. If that isnt a push to sell their new $20 5 man space marine box I dont know what is.

Releasing the Venerable Dreadnought model which is more expensive than the standard dreadnought model. It used to be you could mark a dreadnought as venerable just by putting some nice extra stuff on it.. now tournament wise you have to use the special model.

People can clearly see the link between a models cost and its point cost in an army. Vehicles run around $40-$50 on average, troops run around $35 for average squad size. Any special and/or heavy weapons are usually $6 extra. For all the new codexes the points requirements for Special Characters have been removed to inspire people to buy them for even small point cost games.

Dont get me wrong.. I like the game, I just hate where its heading. The emphasis on GW to push high cost models on us to be able to play a decent game is becoming oppressive. You dont get the idea that GW is a "friendly" company that is concerned about its game anymore. Money comes first the games come in a distant second.


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## Isafrehn (Dec 5, 2007)

*What's going on*

Here in Calgary AB Canada there's one that's closing out of the two that are here and it's located in a large mall. Why this one, it's has a back room for gamers only and it's so big, the other one that's not closing is tucked away in the corner of the mall it's in so if you're just browsing you can't see it. Why is the better one CLOSING.


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## O'sharan (Nov 3, 2007)

I agree Gal with some of your points. But have you ever though about.

For example the reason for high inital cost and for forced buying is so that they know its not just one person trying to get there warhammer for cheap and that it is actually a shop. 

Also I think we have to realise that GW dont have to sell to anyone at lower prices. i.e. to stockests. Therefore we may be angry but what can we do about it. If you want to play the hobby then you have to buy from them and most of the younger hobbiests would buy from them anyway and therefor makes no difference.

GW is a company, if I was head of GW I would know plenty of ways to make MORE PROFITS but they dont, give them credit:biggrin:


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

There's a difference between a reasonable initial buy-in and minimum orders and the standards GW had set last time I checked. it.

Many (but not all) wholesalers require minimum orders, but GW requires you to spend literally thousands on your initial purchase and then has large minimum orders after that, and they force low-selling items on you because they want to clear space in the warehouse.

I'm not saying they haven;t got the right to run their business the way they want.

I'm just saying I don;t like the way they run their business.


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

Galahad said:


> There's a difference between a reasonable initial buy-in and minimum orders and the standards GW had set last time I checked. it.
> 
> Many (but not all) wholesalers require minimum orders, but GW requires you to spend literally thousands on your initial purchase and then has large minimum orders after that, and they force low-selling items on you because they want to clear space in the warehouse.
> 
> ...


The initial setup is in the thousands, true, then again, so is the buy in for Rackham and Privateer Press. Minimum orders? You have restock of what you have initially (which is BTW the top selling items they have from all the lines) and any special orders you may have.

GW has NEVER forced low-selling items on a store...they have a package of the TOP-SELLING items actually. Saying they want to push low-selling items because they want to clear warehouse space is patently and absolutely false. You are assuming here and it's way untrue.

At Gamesday they have Vendor Seminars which explain how things are marketed and how stores are set up: in-house and stockists...including the levels of stockists, the buy in, the product levels...the whole shebang.


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## Asmodai (Dec 30, 2006)

Galahad said:


> There's a difference between a reasonable initial buy-in and minimum orders and the standards GW had set last time I checked. it.
> 
> Many (but not all) wholesalers require minimum orders, but GW requires you to spend literally thousands on your initial purchase and then has large minimum orders after that


That's probably a good thing. Nothing kills a hobby shop quicker than insufficient stock levels. Most of the gaming stores I know of that closed did so because they didn't regularly get enough new product in to keep people coming back.

If a store opens, carries only Dark Eldar because that's what the owner thinks people will/should like and then goes business and liquidate the inventory at 75% off, that makes GW look bad. I really don't fault them the policy. Without, the problems would be even worse.


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## Flam (Feb 7, 2007)

torealis said:


> Youre still not quite getting it flam. Yes, GW is expensive, but its not too expensive. if it were too expensive, it would be GW pricing themselves out of the market, profiteering etc. Its expensive because it has to be. With GW such that it is, it cannot reduce prices. They are therefore not 'too' expensive. That suggests that they are overly so.


I think it's been established that miniatures are expensive to produce. By "too expensive," I don't mean to imply that there's any price gouging going on. I mean "too expensive for most people's budgets." Mine included, dangit! :angry:


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

Well lets look at this... 

Its $35 for a 10 man space marine squad but its $50 for a 5 man terminator squad. Now your going to say well they produce less Terminators because people buy less Terminators thereby Terminators should be more expensive right?? Well ask yourself this.. why do people buy fewer terminators? I know the reason I do is because their so damned expensive. Now also ask your self why its $50 for a box of Space Marine Terminators, Grey Knight Terminators, and Chaos Terminators???

Now if you say that GW has priced these so as to make Army prices fair then I have to ask you why its $25 for a box of 5 Grey Knights and $40 for a box of 10 Kasrkin for Daemonhunters compared to $20 and $35 for Space Marine 5/10 man boxes? That means its $50 for a 10 man GK squad and $40 for a kasrkin squad which is no where near as nice as a simple 10 man Space marine squad.

GW prices there stuff around 2 diffrent things. The army they WANT you to play and the point cost of models which everyone will tell you there are "point efficient" units in an army. It is clearly evident from the point spread compared to price spread that GW does not set prices compared to how difficult models are to produce.. now that nearly everything is plastic compared to what used to be metal things should be getting cheaper and their not they are still continuing to grow more expensive.


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## Isafrehn (Dec 5, 2007)

Are you talking in american dollars (USD)? 
Because if thats the amount you have to pay then we Canadians are getting nerfed! It would be way cheaper just to come down to the united states and head back up with alot of miniatures because our dollar is worth more than yours and even if it was a bit less it's still a great bargain! Our GK terminators cost $75CDN our space marine boxes are $45CDN, our Kasrkins are $55CDN and $45CDN for a box of grey knights


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## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

GW may be profiteering though, as you can only buy GW models for GW games directly from them. therefore, if someone likes a GW game and the models then they cannot go and buy cheaper GW models from a different company.


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

Isafrehn said:


> Are you talking in american dollars (USD)?
> Because if thats the amount you have to pay then we Canadians are getting nerfed! It would be way cheaper just to come down to the united states and head back up with alot of miniatures because our dollar is worth more than yours and even if it was a bit less it's still a great bargain! Our GK terminators cost $75CDN our space marine boxes are $45CDN, our Kasrkins are $55CDN and $45CDN for a box of grey knights



Yeah...lets not even get started on GW prices in Canada. Man...THAT is a can of worms I don't even want to touch.


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

Again it all comes back to GW not pricing based upon how much things are worth or even what is fair to charge.. its all priced around how they can take as much as possible. They really need to come back down to Earth and rethink their pricing policy. I can understand increasing the profit from high demand models but to ask absurd amounts for units just because they dont want you to play them is rediculous. The limitation factor should come from you playing the game and not paying for the game. This is one reason I really PRAY for WoTC to buy out GW. WoTC is far fairer in its pricing standards.

Cheaper models = more people buying models
Easier to buy models = people playing more armies
Easier buy in to the game = more appeal for new players
More new players = larger player base...

To make it simple you would have a larger player base of people buying more models and more gamers playing multiple armies. This of course would become an UPWARD spiral for the game rather than this downward deathspiral that GW has fallen into.

What scares me even more is that if GW continues where its going and no one buys them out, GW could go out of business and we wouldnt have anyone to fix the game or give us anywhere to go. Though I think GW is at least a year away from going out of business if it keeps going the same direction.. The whole rumored 5th edition could help but what I want to see more than anything is a better FAQ system with the developers looking at least MONTHLY at what problems have been identified in the game system, codexes, and rules interactions. PP has a HUGE leg up on GW in this regard and is a major reason I do play Warmachine as well as 40K. If GW got its crap together for giving us in the community what we want are at least pretended to I would throw my Warmachine pieces out the door in a heartbeat.


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## torealis (Dec 27, 2006)

Oh dear god. People need to shut the [Censored by order of His Holy Inquisition] up about GWs pricing policy and the future of GW.

GW is not a year away from closing, not even close. Its is not in a downward deathspiral. It is recovering from a post-LotR slump and its recovering damn well. Costs are going down and money is going up, things are going in the right direction.

GW doesnt price things randomly, or based on points, its based on profit margins, which are, per box, very small.

GW is cleverer than you, and cleverer than me, so dont try and give it ideas. They have massive teams of accountants and such, so the whole 'reduce prices, sell more, make more' obviously isnt true.

It is getting easier to buy into the game, just look at skull pass and what it gives you. By next year 40k will be a similarly incredible box deal.

GW does not hate you, nor is it the evil money-hungry mega-corp some people seem to think it is. GW wants people to get the most they can out of their hobby, and that includes taking your money and turning it into more cool stuff and, oddly, more money to keep shareholders happy.

so please... stop.


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

Ok lets look at this... in 2005 GW traded for as high as 850 a share.. beginning of 2007 it traded at 400 a share.. what is it trading at now??? 190. Now if that isnt a downward spiral what is??

128Million in revenue this year and its expected to post close to 7 million in loss from what I read.

Now I dont know about you but I bought into this game is was $30 for a core rule book that had the rules for my army without me buying a seperate codex and models where at just over half the price they are now. Now the CRB is $50 with another $30-35 for a codex... how is that getting cheaper??? There has not been that much inflation in the past 4-5 years.

HQ choices run you 15 per character + whatever squad you want (average of 50-60 for full choice)
Elites run you 50-100
Troops are usually $35 - 40 for full squad
FA run you $40 - 120
Heavys are usually $35 - 50

Nearly every vehicle is 30-55

Its $5 more for a Razorback than a Rhino... Why?? How is that little amount of plastic worth $5 more??? BUT if you buy it with 5 marines you save $10 over the price of the same as seperate choices!!! $10!!! Now you tell me how that isnt trying to get you to buy what they want you to buy. 

If you price out your armies you will find it is cheaper point per dollar to max your troop slots out and more expensive to fill out your HS - Elite - FA in that order.


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## O'sharan (Nov 3, 2007)

I think we HAVE to realize that GW do NOT PRICE there models on how much materials they use. Its a complex balence of supply and demand along with the future if the hobby. 

Using your example how many people do you see using razorbacks compared to rhinos?
Is this because they are more expensive? not really
Because rhinos are cheaper and do there job i.e. people use rhino over razorbacks for their rules.Ok

Now if you end up selling less razorback then you are probably only going to sell them to people who really want the razorback, no subsitute. Right, so its more inelastic. then they can charge more.

The cheaper box set price is to tempt people into not just buying the razorback but also buying some marines to more sell generally is better for them.

REMEMBER GW KNOWS YOU GENERALLY BUY MODELS FOR RULES!

rant done


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## torealis (Dec 27, 2006)

> Its $5 more for a Razorback than a Rhino... Why?? How is that little amount of plastic worth $5 more???


i hate going over this time and time again, but prices are NOT BASED PURELY ON THE COST OF MATERIAL. I'm going with UK prices here, £2 extra gets you the razorback sprue which is 1/2 the size of a rhino sprue. there are two rhino sprues, so its 1/4 more ontop of the rhino material wise, so if youre going purely on material, youre getting a better deal.
the $5 or £2 more you pay is not for the plastic alone, its for ALL the extra costs involved.



> BUT if you buy it with 5 marines you save $10 over the price of the same as seperate choices!!! $10!!! Now you tell me how that isnt trying to get you to buy what they want you to buy.


of course it isnt, its GW giving you a better deal on what is a good idea to buy. If you want a razorback on its own, get one, but why would you want to? you need men to go in it so why not get them on the cheap?

This is not a hard concept to grasp. For many reasons, GW is able to provide bulk discounts, so the bigger box you buy, the more you save. This goes for armoured fist boxes, battle boxes and army boxes, also for core games.


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

This conversation has been an interesting one, and a variety of opinions have come up and been discussed. I think we've covered about as much as we can on it and at this point we're starting to simply rehash the same thing repeatedly.

Thank you all for your input on this, and I appreciate everyone's input on the subject.
I think we can safely put this subject to bed.


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