# Fiends Vs Bloodcrushers



## Dorash (Sep 24, 2010)

Hi all, sorry if this is the wrong place to post this, I was fine-tuning my Daemonic Cavalry list when it occurred to me that rather than 2 squads of Fiends of Slaanesh and 1 Squad of Bloodcrushers of Khorne, possibly it may be better (read: more economical $$$ wise and more plastic and possibly tactically more sound) to field 2 units of bloodcrushers and 1 of fiends.

Does anyone have any thoughts about this and reasoning for either yay/nay to the concept? 

Thanks in advance.


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Money wise? I hope you're not buying the actual fiend models. They are expensive and butt-ugly. I use Dark Elf Cold Ones as fiends which is much cheaper and way better looking. And they are lighter in your carry case too.
Tacticwise? Fiends again. Cheaper, faster, more reliable and with greater flexibility fiends are brutal in any way imaginable.

I'd recommend, quite obviously, fiends. They are not as tough, but their lower cost and flexibillity more than makes up for that. And the alternatives for them are many and much cheaper than the crushers. Although the new crusher models are pretty sweet.


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I made my Fiends by getting a box of Goblin Spider riders and a box of Daemonettes and rubbing them together until they made Fiends. 10 Fiends for £30, not bad. 

Fiends are much better than Crushers, they're beasts for a start so they excel at closing the distance fast. Their lack of grenades is really their only big downside. 

Aramoro


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Remember, Fiends also have Hit'n Run which actually can help their survival immensily. Sometimes you just want to charge something suspect will take a few turns to finish off (if you roll like me, you know they wont kill that dreadnought in less than 3 combats) to keep them out the line of fire only to make them run away (and very quickly they run) hitting something far more interesting.


----------



## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

I prefer Fiends myself, because Crushers are SLOOOOOOW. 

If you run Crushers you are almost obligated to take Intrument/Fury/Icon so you can play the wound allocation game and guarantee they reach combat. They have Furious Charge and a 3+ armour so they will stomp any infantry they reach, although they're not as useful against vehicles which is something Daemons are already lacking.


----------



## Uilleam (Nov 23, 2009)

I'd say Crushers all the way. I get the fact that fiends are calvray and thus capable of up to a 24" range to get into combat. But really, they land outside that range and they don't make combat. They land inside that range and you may be out of rapid fire range but you're still in shooting distance. And let's be honest, T4 and a 5+ save does not make a survivable unit vs T5 with a 3+/5+ save AND the ability to have unique 2 wound models to spread wounds around. Survivability goes to the Crushers hands down. Especially when Grey Knights are on the table. One Purgutation squad with psycannons will eliminate a unit of Fiends with no problem. The same cannot be said of Crushers. A unit of Havocs/Devastators is also fully capable of killing them the turn they land just from heavy bolters/autocannons. Flamers will kill fiends. Even angry flashlights (lasguns) will kill Fiends! 

Combat ability is also definitly all about the Crushers. WS5, I5 on the charge, S6 on the charge, and power weapons. These guys kill everything they touch. Fiends are only better in terms of base Init and number of attacks. Rending is definitly not to be relied upon to beat your opponent. Half their attacks should miss by odds, and then you've got to pray you roll some 6s. Would you use Fiends against a unit of Terminators? No. Would you use Crushers? Oh yes! If your opposistion survives the intial charge there is a slim chance in hell your Fiends survive the retaliation if your opponents unit has any CC ability at all or even just numbers like Ork Boyz.

The only downside to Crushers is they cost more points. But of course they do, they're superior! :victory:


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Maths tells us that equal points of Fiends and Crushers performs almost identically against Thunder Hammer Termies. And they will in general only do 1 or 2 wounds back after casualties. The only difference being that you will actually get into combat with your Fiends whilst your Crushers will get slowly whittled down as they plod around the board. 

Daemons struggle against Armour and that's where Fiends really shine. 6 fiends vs fast moving AV10 gives them a great chance to Pen, notionally 1 glance and 1 pen. If for some unknown reason your Crushers manage to catch the same tank you might get 1 Pen if your's lucky. Against AV14 only your Fiends will be doing anything. 

Aramoro


----------



## Uilleam (Nov 23, 2009)

Actually, Crushers will pen that tank just as well. S6 on the Charge plus d6 pen is capable of AV12. Fiends are relying on Rending to get that much. Their base being AV11. A Crusher with Fury can pen AV14. A Fiend can only Glance. So killing armour goes to the crushers too. They may have difficulty catching it but really, if you plan your DS well, you can hem tanks in. 

As for Crushers being shot before they engage the enemy I've already covered quite well how they will survive much better than fiends. I have thrown my Crushers in rapid fire range continually just to get the charge and they take a few wounds but they slaughter whatever they run into. They will kill more TH/SS termies just because the termies will take ALL their saves against their Invul. Not their 2+ save. 

Crushers all the way!


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Maths does not back your anecdotal evidence. Fiends and Crushers will both fill 2/3 TH/SS termies on the Charge.

What you're failing to take into account is that there are more Fiends and each Fiend has more attacks. Fiends have 6 attacks each on the charge to Crushers 4, you also get 6 Fiends for the price of 4 Crushers. The termies get to make some of their saves at 2+ but they have to make a lot more of them. 

Killing Armour is very much in the favour of Fiends in this case as well, you have more attacks and thus a higher chance to damaging the Vehicle. 

Aramoro


----------



## Midge913 (Oct 21, 2010)

They both have their uses, pros and cons. Crushers in my opinion are infinitely more survivable, and this comes from playing them not math. I find that the fiends where they are fast, and able to get into combat mor quickly than the Crushers, their high number of attacks + rending makes them a huge target. That is where their lower toughness value really comes into play. Against fiends bolters wound on 4's, Crushers 5's. A full tac squad rapid firing bolters has 16-20 shots depending on specials, resulting in 11-14 hits on average with 6-9 wounds inflicted. Against the crushers toughnes of 5, that results in only 3-5 wounds on average that you get to take a 3+ save against instead of a 5+ involnurable. In close combat you are going to kill things with the crushers, strength 6 on the charge with 4 attacks each, with power weapons is incredible. against MEq with a 5 man squad of Crushers, your 20 attacks are going to result in 14 hits on average, wounds on anything but 1's the turn you charge. 

With the Fiends, with the same 5 man unit, 30 attacks the charge, but your weapon skill is the same as MEq, resulting in appoximately the same amount of hits on average. In this instance with the fiends are wounding on 3+ instead of 2+, resulting in 10 wounds, with only 2 6's on average for rending, the rest of those wounds with allow armor saves, which on the average MEq will save 7 of. So in this instance you have 3 dead marines, instead of 10.

Every one gets hung up on how we can take on mech and I say you need to leave that to tzeentch demons, princes, and soul grinders. Remember that you have to be able to mop up once things get out of transports, and in my opinion, you can't beat Crushers for sheer CC prowess. Attach a herald on a Juggy and it gets even better.

The key to the demon army is using units from multiple powers. Slaanesh demons are great at getting across the field quickly and tying things up in assault. They are good in assault in their own right with high init and rending, but they need to be supported with other units because they are more fragile. 

As far as the crushers being slow we are a completely deep striking army and as such risks need to be taken with the first appearing units to get your icons right where you need them so units like the crushers and nurgle daemons aren't left in the back field for the whole game as they try to get there. Be aggressive.

I would take a unit of both and have them support each other in a sheer fury of CC goodness because the both have great aspects they bring to the table.


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Fiends are pretty much the best unit in the entire Daemon Codex. Crushers are ok and work well in Fatecrusher etc. But for competitive Daemon lists Fiends are a shoe in. 

I would always include a unit of Fiends before I though about including a unit of Crushers. If I can only have 1 or the other Fiends every time. 

Aramoro


----------

