# Low Model Count vs. Competitiveness



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Considering the huge differences between 40K and WHFB, I think its best to ask rather than living with assumptions, so I have two questions for you:

Which armies in 8th edition have relatively low model count lists that can be called decent with little to no good will?

What impact does the increasingly low model count have on an army in general?

No deathstars, obviously, just relatively few models overall in the army.


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## Blackhiker (Dec 28, 2007)

Between the armies that I play/ play against the most competitive small armies are the High elves, and occasionally lizardmen.

The high elves because each of them are quite expensive, but usually the equivalent of the elites of any other army in terms of attack power.

The lizardmen if going with a saurus heavy army, which are as durable and just as strong as the elites of other armies.

For these two armies the low model count does impact the effectiveness of the army, but mostly just from the risk of enemy flankers and the possibility of being so outnumbered that you lose from the extra combat modifiers alone. These armies though usually have enough punch though that they can cause enough wounds to win against those odds.


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

OK and Bert were very good till 8th, 
when you have low model count it just mean's that if you make any mistakes at all its going to be alot more painful compare to lots of models army (aka having one unit out of place is not that bad unless your whole army is only 4 units) . 

You still can be quite competitive its just a bit harder. ~ Desu


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Hmm... so are you saying that low(er/ish) model count armies are at a disadvantage by default? Are there any advantages (other than being easier on your pocket)?


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

There are some units that work well in small numbers, but they're either a tad deathstarry, they aren't meant to be the backbone of the force, or they are more of a specialty of a particular army.

For instance, my friend who plays Daemons spams bloodcrushers (well, two units, but they're damn expensive!) quite effectively, and only requires a few models. That said, I don't know how cheap this is in a monetary sense, seeing as how 3 plastic bloodcrushers=$90. Plus you'll still be needing core. 

A small infantry unit is about 15 models, any less and you're asking for it. the only exceptions I can think of off the top of my head are skirmishers (which are generally throwaway units who only need to kill one thing) and units such as Swordmasters. High Elf Elites *can* get away with smaller units, since they'll often kill far more than they deserve too, and hence won't necessarily require the extra combat res. That said they can still get shot, so you know, you'll need to be extra careful. For the vast majority of infantry you'll be wanting absolute minimum 15, preferably 20+.

There is another route you can take: Monstrous Creatures/Cavalry forces. Ogre Kingdoms are generally considered to be the ultimate budget army, since they cost so damn much points wise, and they have a lot in plastic. Although if you do go down the OK route, I'm going to warn you, from one low initiative army player to another (I play Lizards)- beware the Purple sun and Pit of Shades. It's even worse for Ogres since they don't have the magical defenses of Lizardmen, and you have all your wounds in a handful of models. Talk to some ogre players first. I've also seen Chaos Troll armies work. Finally, you can go for an all Bretonnian cav force, but even then you'll probably want some men at arms or whatever those dirty little peasants are called, just for something that can act as an anvil for your cavalry hammer. I'm not 100% on this, but I believe that Bretonnians have the only really viable all cav force ever since the advent of steadfast, since they count as having full ranks of three due to lance formation? Hopefully a Bretonnian player can set us straight on this.


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## Blackhiker (Dec 28, 2007)

The major advantage of the smaller forces is that if played right your opponent won't be able to get enough of his troops into combat with them. 
For example on Friday I played a game against lizardmen with my skaven, and I charged the remainders of his temple guard, which was just the command team, with two units of 20+ clanrats, and even with charging and all my bonuses I still lost combat.

So in general most elite armies are just so durable so that it takes way to long for the opponent to kill them, or so strong that they will kill almost entire units in one turn.


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## Flindo (Oct 30, 2010)

40K you can work with low models, this you cant, this is about armies, while 40K is more about small battles between groups, unless of course its orks vs nids.


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

The main problem with low model count armies is a straightforward one: how do you defeat huge blocks of enemy troops?

Sure, you can outkill them easily with almost any elites, but in 8th edition they'll almost certainly hold as long as they have more ranks than your unit, especially if they're within range of either the general, the BSB, or both.

The most effective low model count armies are ones that are very elite, with powerful low cost troops, and the best of the elite armies are the ones that exploit the lore of life. The reason being, with lore of life you can replace your losses relatively easily, and while each casting may only restore 20-30 points worth of infantry for most armies, for an elite one it can restore 80-100 points with each casting. All that, and unlike the undead lores that restore losses (Vampires and Tomb Kings), the lore of life has a very powerful offensive spell, to boot.

The combination of restoring your losses, coupled with the very powerful anti-infantry spell 'dwellers below', gives your low model count army the edge it needs in order to beat hordes.

High elves or lizardmen with lore of life would be the best low model count armies, in my opinion. 

Brets are also pretty solid, but are more 'mid tier', and sort of have a bad rep. They're powerful (and with a low model count) when you mainly use heavy cavalry and the lance formation, because they're really the only army in the game with cavalry that can reliably break large units of infantry, because the Brets can have cavalry in ranks of 3, with most of the models in the unit getting their attacks. If you want large units of cavalry, the Brets are the way to go.

I wouldn't use Ogre Kingdoms until they get a new codex, but for the record, they were not alright before 8th. They were still pretty bad back then, all things considered. With 8th they got a big boost to close combat, but at the same time they lost a lot because of their vulnerability to many spells. Purple sun and pit of shades can both cause an Ogre player to lose the game before they barely even start.


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## Flindo (Oct 30, 2010)

mynameisgrax said:


> The main problem with low model count armies is a straightforward one: how do you defeat huge blocks of enemy troops?
> 
> Sure, you can outkill them easily with almost any elites, but in 8th edition they'll almost certainly hold as long as they have more ranks than your unit, especially if they're within range of either the general, the BSB, or both.
> 
> ...


I agree, the only thing ogre kingdom has going for them really is there hit points and strength, they can be took down pretty easily by a good magic spell or two altho I do think they look cool, but they are far too expencive point wise for what you get.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

It isn't really a low model count that makes an army harder to work with as it is how reliable/fragile they are for their points. Elves tend to be glass cannons, easily broken, but capable of breaking a lot in return. Lizardmen (or Life-assisted High Elves) are an example of a more reliable low model-count army. Tough, good armor save, and capable of taking most of what you throw them into. Regardless, you have to throw these guys into what they're best at, and can't afford to make little mistakes like you can with horde armies. Typically, you'll want to focus on certain heavy-hitters who can rival your elites. For example, a unit of Saurus infantry will chop pretty handily through a block of regular dudes, but if they get hit by say, Sword-masters, they'll be chopped up much more quickly than their points would indicate.

So, more tactics required, though this varies. Play to your army's strengths, in essence, and don't just bludgeon your way through without accounting for enemy countermeasures.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Personally I've not had any problems with my ogres, appart from those damned spells like Purple Sun and Pit of Shades... they're game killers for Ogres.

As for hordes... My good old Scraplauncher and surprisingly, Gnoblars have been useful for dealing with them. 

Scraplauncer as its essentially a large template stone thrower with killing blow, and the Gnoblars, as with sharp stuff they get two shots each, and with the 'always wound on a 6' rule now, they can pretty much pincushion anything.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

I play Lizardmen and Warriors of Chaos for WHFB, so I know small armies rather well.

Don't goof off with them. Attack what needs to be attacked. I won a game against Skaven with 3 models left (not units, INDIVIDUAL MEN) and that was because I managed to get into CQC with the Skaven general (and as we know, a Skaven army without a general is dead)

See? Attack what needs to be attacked.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Thinking in terms of a standard of 2500 points: I think of a low model count as 50 models or less. Only an Ogres Kingdom army (OK) can get away with that with scraplaunchers, bulls, tyrant, slaughter, butcher, and a couple of gnoblar scouting units. 

Also, does one count certain war machines as one model or three (two crew and one machine), four (three crew and one machine), or five (four crew and one machine)? In 8th edition, the rules seem to imply one model but I still think in terms of the machine plus the crew. 

In the moderate (but relatively low) model counts I would consider 80 or fewer models as relatively low for 8th edition. Warriors of Chaos, Dark Elves, Bret, and Daemons of Chaos can run competitive builds of that type. 

Warriors still need warriors and marauder horsemen in decent numbers but can run chaos knights and ogre/dragon ogre special units with expensive heroes and lords and war shrines and hellcannons and be well under 75 models and be competitive. 

A dark elf build with dark riders and crossbowmen in core and a large ASF cold one knights unit as the special unit and 2 hydras as the rare choices (maybe a RBT as well) with a cauldron, two lords (lvl 4 and dreadlord), and a BSB master or lvl 2 can be under 75 models but not under 50 and be competitive. 

The common competitive high elf builds, while relatively expensive per model, will still tend to focus on larger blocks of special infantry of phoenix guard, swordsmen and lions and have to run enough core of archers, spearmen and sea guard to meet the min core requirement that will tend to push up the model counts well above 80. HE armies also have relatively lower cost rare models (eagles and RBTs), which increases the total model count. 

Daemons have a standard core cost and need to have about 50+ core models to be competitive in 8th edition and to meet the min core requirement. The special (fleshhound) and rare (flamers, beasts, fiends, bloodcrusher) counts can be relatively low given the high points costs for the best models in those slots. So, with a greater daemon and a few heralds, the total model count can be under 70 and be very competitive. 

Empire has high cost models in the popemobile and steam tank, war machines, and some higher cost cav, but they need a lot of core infantry in order to be competitive and that will typically push the model count up over 80.


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## the-graven (Apr 26, 2010)

Lizardmen aren't that a low model count army, I use 20 TG, 40 Saurus and some Skrox @2000 pts, doesn't seem as low model count, and with a toad they're even better


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

how would you consider VC in the low model count area? For 8 points you are getting either skeletons or ghouls - considering the stats of both of these troops you are paying close to twice their actual value based on the fact that with a little luck in the magic phase your guys can get back up (oh, and once in a blue-moon that happens to be on a friday the 13th in may your opponent will fail their fear check...)?

My only army is VC & well, back in the good ol days I accepted that I was going to walk forward & win with blocks of 20 skeletons. Now, I can't seem to get a spell of to save my life. When I'm playing a 2000 point game I find I'm typically outnumbered by almost anyone - empire and skaven for sure, but even high & dark elves - and frankly their units are much beefier than mine. this is simply because I MUST take a 450 point lord choice AND augment that with a selection of near 200 point heroes, else I (a) can't march, (b) can't cast spells, (c) can't kill anything leading to (d) crumble away


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

Lizardmen don't have to be a low model count army, any more than High Elves do. All in all, no army has to be low model count. Even Ogres can load up on gnoblars.

Lizardmen and High Elves just make for the most 'effective' elite armies. You're still looking at 80~ models at 2500 points though. They're just 'relatively' low model count. If you want a really low model count, than Ogres are the way to go. You can get away with as few as 30 models at 2500 points, and still have a competitive force.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

the-graven said:


> Lizardmen aren't that a low model count army, I use 20 TG, 40 Saurus and some Skrox @2000 pts, doesn't seem as low model count, and with a toad they're even better


That is a low model count for fantasy, excep perhaps the skrox. Fantasy does as a general rule require way more models than 40k, and so whilst they may not seem to be low model count, there are fantasy armies that are considered as such.



mynameisgrax said:


> Lizardmen don't have to be a low model count army, any more than High Elves do. All in all, no army has to be low model count. Even Ogres can load up on gnoblars.


They don't *have* to be, but the OP asked which armies *can* be low model count. Of course you can spam Skrox units for lizardmen, and you'll have some nasty hordes. High Elves can use a shitton of spearmen with ASF kicking everyone's arse. However they can (and more often than not are) played with more elite units. Think of this as us pointing out which armies do not require a massive horde to play well (i.e. Skaven, probably orcs, etc.)



mynameisgrax said:


> ...Ogres are the way to go. You can get away with as few as 30 models at 2500 points, and still have a competitive force.


Hmmm... whilst you're 100% right about ogres having the lowest model count, if I were you I wouldn't let the OK players catch you claiming they're competitive. They'll grind your bones to make their bread, especially ever since the Purple Sun and Pit of Shades came about. Not to mention steadfast. You'd need more than 30 models, that's for sure


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

I am one of those Ogre players. ^_^

Yeah, I sorta misspoke there, by 'competitive', I actually meant 'viable'. You can have a viable army of 30 Ogres that has the ability to win. Regardless, you are correct, with Pit of Shades and Purple Sun in the game, Ogres can't really be competitive at any point level. 

That said, it doesn't mean you can't win. It just means the odds will be against you from the start. The only truly 'competitive' armies right now seem to be Chaos Warriors, Lizardmen, High Elves, Skaven, Dark Elves, Empire, Chaos Daemons, and Dwarves.

The right Brettonian or Vampire Counts army also has a shot, but they might be at a slight disadvantage. Beastmen are alright, but there are better armies that do more or less the same thing. As I mentioned, Ogre Kingdoms can do well as long as your opponent doesn't have either Pit of Shades or Purple Sun. Tomb Kings and Wood Elves aren't very good at all right now.


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## CLT40k (Jun 18, 2010)

I've played a couple of games with my brets... At 2250, I ended up with the Fay Enchantress... A couple of 9-10 strong units of cav and a ton of archers... the key is to assault things with 2 units of cav if you're gonna have a chance to not get tarpitted. The archers only work in massed fire....


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

What about Daemons in terms of numbers? Where do they belong? I'm asking because their units seem to be pretty expensive, especially the more useful ones.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Actually Daemons can be very low model count. Especially if you spam bloodcrushers. Those things are freaking nasty, and cost a lot too (pointwise). Now I seem to remember writing a khorne daemon list a few weeks ago which involved a couple of blocks of twenty bloodletters, two units of roughly five bloodcrushers, a herald or two on a juggernaught with nasty equipment, and maybe a bloodthirster (can't remember). I'm no daemon player, but to me it seemed pretty nasty. and basically 'point and click' as well. Well, to be fair, that entire army book is pretty nasty, and probably overpowered. It was about 2000pts and there were 30ish models (maybe 35). You may want to talk to someone who actually plays daemons before taking my opinion.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

At 2000 points, Daemons can play competitively at slightly over 50 models, but not at 2500 points. The standard point cost per model of core, even with magic banners and full comman will push up the model count quite a bit. Bloodcrushers in a unit of 5 with a herald of khorne make quite a formidable unit but are very costly to lose models if hit with some good warmachine direct hits (cannon ball to take out two, hellcannon, grudge with +2 S, or a lucky warp lightning cannon hit with a high bounce roll and template over the unit).


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