# 7th Edition Unbound: What actually is allowed?



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

This thread: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=154786 is the inspiration for the thread your currently in.

From the 7th Edition rules:

_The *Unbound* method is the easiest way to organise an army: *simply use whichever units from your collection you want*. Besides being a quick way to get your models on the tabletop, the Unbound method also allows you to try out exciting combinations in your army, such as fielding a whole force of Tanks or Flyers, or even of special characters.
_

That is it as far as I can tell in regards to the rules dealing with unbound armies. The allies matrix relations apply but beyond that I do not see any restrictions.

The question in that thread I listed at the top was if a Eldar based Unbound list could use Dark Eldar Transports.

The way I read the rules I want to say yes they could, without having anything else from the DE Codex. 

If you wanted to do a Unbound army with 5 Ork Trukks, 15 SM Rhinos, and two Tau Devilfish, it would be 'legal' by the unbound rules. You would just have to nominate one of them to be a Warlord and be aware of how the allies system would impact them.

What do the rest of you guys think?


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I would suggest that it is not allowed, because even Unbound armies use the points system.

In order to pay points for something, then you have to field it legally from it's codex entry. Given that you cannot purchase a dedicated transport without also purchasing a unit, then I don't think you can run them on their own, in the same way that you cannot field a plasma gun and a missile launcher (another unit option) without the base model or unit that they were purchased for.

So while it does say "anything" then I believe that you still need to adhere to the internal structure of the codex, otherwise you could potentially argue for the legality of the Land Raider that I glued 8 Assault Cannons onto. It's a model in my collection, after all - but it doesn't follow a codex entry and therefore is not allowed.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

A DT is a unit type though, it has a set point cost and set upgrades. In most of the codex DT sections, it states that they do not take up a Force Org but function as separate units.


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

I would be inclined to agree with sethis, the DT are an option for a unit so you would need to field the unit to get the DT.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

A DT is an upgrade for a unit. So you cannot purchase a DT unless you have a unit to purchase it for. Like Sethis says, you also cannot have a Plasma gun hovering around without a wielder.
It seems pretty clear cut to me.


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

I guess it depends how they are bought. If you have on unit lists saying "This unit can buy a XXXX for the unit" anywhere then no it cant be purchased unless a unit that has that rule is able to take it. However if it is like a Falcon Gravtank that is just able to be bought without needing to be attached to another squad then go for it.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

you guys are clearly missing the point of unbound by the looks of it 
as its quoted above 
_The Unbound method is the easiest way to organise an army: *simply use whichever units from your collection you want*. Besides being a quick way to get your models on the tabletop, the Unbound method also allows you to try out exciting combinations in your army, such as fielding a whole force of Tanks or Flyers, or even of special characters._

if someone wants to field an army of DT what does it really matter? its just gonna be for fun at the end of the day, wanna field a 8 assualt cannon land raider, i say go ahead, make it a feature of the game, just make sure you pay a good amount of points for it and crack on with a game, if it wipes the board, dont play it again, if it dies first turn try again, its a game have fun with it. 

personally i think GW is trying to undo years of making 40k too anal and straight laced and saying , dust off your imaginations and have some fun with it,fuck balance,fuck competative and tourneys,have a beer and a smile and crack on


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

Fine.. if that is the way you are playing bits and kits... then I will play a 500pt game with 55 horrors... not in their min of 10 models, but all in 1s (that's how they used to be in kill teams until rule changed)... that's 55 +d6 psy dice...  awesome!!! oh and they can summon units of 10 so don't worry  (for reference the kill team rules allowed brotherhood of psys to all count as individuals as every mob did. And could cast 2d6 shots at WC1, so with the 22 you could get for 200pts you had 44-264 shots a turn)

That is why you still have the limitations. Also stops things like people loading out squads to have full heavy/special weapons. Or say with Eldar working out that actually my guardian defender squad is now going to have 5 scatter lasers or bright lances... Or multiple Crimson Hunter Exarch.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

mayegelt said:


> Fine.. if that is the way you are playing bits and kits... then I will play a 500pt game with 55 horrors... not in their min of 10 models, but all in 1s (that's how they used to be in kill teams until rule changed)... that's 55 +d6 psy dice...  awesome!!! oh and they can summon units of 10 so don't worry  (for reference the kill team rules allowed brotherhood of psys to all count as individuals as every mob did. And could cast 2d6 shots at WC1, so with the 22 you could get for 200pts you had 44-264 shots a turn)
> 
> That is why you still have the limitations. Also stops things like people loading out squads to have full heavy/special weapons. Or say with Eldar working out that actually my guardian defender squad is now going to have 5 scatter lasers or bright lances... Or multiple Crimson Hunter Exarch.


i dont play 500 points ,thats for amateurs  , besides if i did play 500 points and you turned up with 55 horrors so what? if you have paid the points i wouldnt mind you fielding them, its about opening your self up to change, i have kicked around this game since before we even had codex books and FOC etc and back in the day you were much more free to pick and choose what you wanted to put on the board, if your 55 horrors bummed me off the table in two turns, so what? i like a challenge. 

I say no limitations, field however you want, throw the codex restraints out the window and have a game how you want it, if you want a 10 man 5 scatter laser unit then do it! i never saw the point of the other 8 men stood around doing nothing anyway. you want multiple crimson hunter exarch go for it, make sure you give them a cool name and back story too.

if you want limitations and restrictions and structure stick with playing the normal way.


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

You failed to get my point, my 55 were all in units of 1.

That means 55 LV1 sorcerers giving 1 Warp charge each.

Up the pts how ever much you like I could add an additional LV1 sorc per 9pts I have to play with.
If just using flickering fire each model has a 50% chance to cast 2d6 S5 AP4 shots, and can all fire at separate targets, oh and any CC or shooting you do against them from units could only kill them 1 at a time as they are all separate.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

I am with B&K on this: Unbound is all about putting your collection on the table and playing shooty-games for fun. I have been playing some games like that since Rogue Trader; all GW have done is formally divide games into "two people doing what they want" and "pick up games against strangers who want an external balancing agent". I welcome the clarification that competing and messing around are both 40K, but you need to play them differently.

With regard to 55 single man Horror squads? Bring it: there is no embarrassment to losing, and if I win Nurgle will bless me for all days!


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

it would be fun to see the roll of either roll of 5 or 6 on the warpstorm table and whole armies end up going pop...


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

I'm with Bits and Hobbit on this one. Personally I feel this choice has been aimed at kids (you know, the ones with 3 centurions, a dreadnought and Marneus Calgar as their only collection) so that they can get games of "real" 40k in. 

Basically, it's a starter set into 40k addiction, start with Unbound, use whatever you like while you get used to the rules and the idea that each model represents another 6 months without your own house, then when you've spent enough money to fund Kirby's new yacht, you should have enough of a collection to build a Bound list!


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

On the other hand... RAW, the opening quote says 'UNITS'. By definition, a DT has to be part of the unit that it was purchased, right? It's not a unit in itself?

I dunno. Most likely I'll try running Unbound here and there, but less for the 6 Riptide spam, but more for something like Sternguard and Dreadnoughts without those pesky tacticals.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Bits, I'm not saying that if you want to agree to use whatever the hell you like then you shouldn't - I'm fully and entirely of the opinion that whatever two consenting players decide to do with their game and armies is up to them and nobody else. Do whatever makes you happy.

However by the letter of the rules, then I think if your opponent said "Sure, let's play an unbound game" and you promptly put down an army made ENTIRELY out of Wave Serpents, he would have grounds to complain if you didn't float the idea to him beforehand.


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

All the unbound is doing is giving you the freedom to use what you have without FoC getting in the way. Not just giving you the freedom to use what you want.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

The DT is a unit, not a upgrade. It is a outside FOC unit that gets added to troops but it is still a unit with it's own point costs and wargear upgrades. It is not a plasma gun or ML, it is a individual unit choice. The Unnbound rules state, take whatever units you want. If you look at the codex entries for DT's they have a unit type. Plasma guns and ML do not have unit types.

I do not agree that a 8 assualt cannon LR would be allowed, it is not in the unit upgrade options for the unit.

I do not agree that 55 horrors as 55 units are allowed unless you can take a min unit of 1 for them.


What about these examples?

Servitors

Enginseers

Primaris Psykers

Ministorum Priests

Techmarines

Command Squads

Honor Guards


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

mayegelt said:


> That means 55 LV1 sorcerers giving 1 Warp charge each.


I would face that happily, though I'm pretty sure that you still have to play within the rules for the Codex that you're using them out of for unit composition. For example, I could run an all Death Company army without Astorath but none of the units can be smaller than 3 models since that's the restriction on unit size. That being said, I don't own a copy of 7th yet so feel free to correct me with text from the new BRB.

On the other, more narrative side of things: maybe those Eldar happened upon those Dark Eldar transports as they were left behind by their fleeing/dead owners and in the desperation of war decided to use them to their advantage since most of the systems were easy enough for them to understand and they needed to survive. Were I to be in a survival situation (see also, the zombie apocalypse), I wouldn't be worried about whose car I was jacking more than if that car could be useful to me. I would say this contrasts the idea of a Battle Forged army quite nicely, though I feel like 'Unbound' should be called 'Battle Forged' and 'Battle Forged' should be something that doesn't imply that it was forged in battle but also just so happens to follow a very specific set of guidelines to be used...semantics, I know.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

scscofield said:


> The DT is a unit, not a upgrade. It is a outside FOC unit that gets added to troops but it is still a unit with it's own point costs and wargear upgrades. It is not a plasma gun or ML, it is a individual unit choice. The Unnbound rules state, take whatever units you want. If you look at the codex entries for DT's they have a unit type. Plasma guns and ML do not have unit types.


I don't really understand where you're coming from with the tone of your posts.

Are you looking to have a casual game with your mate, where you can both take things that are fun for you?

Or are you looking for a RAW interpretation that would allow you to play games using this tactic with people who might object to you doing so, and you want a justification in the letter of the rules for how you've built your army?

If it's the former, just do what the hell you like and your opponent can do the same.

If it's the latter, you don't have a leg to stand on, because Unbound still uses points. That means you must purchase units. That means you must purchase unit upgrades. That means to purchase an upgrade (such as a DT) then you need a unit to purchase it for. Whether an upgrade has a type or not is completely immaterial, because you don't even have the option for paying the points for it except as part of upgrading another unit. Trying to claim that because a DT is a model with a unit type and therefore can be used on its own is a stupid as saying you could take 100 Missile Drones as a Tau army because you don't need to take the Riptides needed to unlock them.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Please show me a codex listing that states that the DT are unit upgrades and not units.

The rules for unbound are take any unit you want, that is my point. RAW for a DT is that it is a unit, not a upgrade.

Drones are wargear, they are even in the wargear sections of the codex.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

scscofield said:


> Please show me a codex listing that states that the DT are unit upgrades and not units.


They are units, no two ways about that. I'm all for taking whatever the hell you want and tallying the points.

Curiously though, are there any instances outside of Unbound lists where you can take a Dedicated Transport without purchasing it with a unit? I know I can deploy them empty, but they always have to come in conjunction with the unit. My reason for this question is that limitations on the number of models in a unit is basically the same as the type of limitation put on DTs in that they (potentially, I look to Heresy to know more about all the Codices than I) must be taken a specific way. If one applies then the other surely would.

Another one of these kinds of situations comes from Astra Militarum Infantry Platoons, and wanting to JUST field Conscripts. You can't take Conscripts without including a Platoon Command Squad and two Infantry Platoons, but I'm sure there's someone out there (I'm looking at you, @Straken's_Fist) that would love to field just them. I'm sure there are other Codex entries that have similar head scratchers, if we're to follow anything but points cost for Unbound armies.

Add up the points and throw down!


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

The dark elder codec. There is no entry for buying empty d.t. just like there is no entry for rhinos without passengers.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Neither of those codexs have the option of fielding nothing but HQs also.


Again, this is the rules for Unbound in the new rulebook:

_The *Unbound* method is the easiest way to organise an army: *simply use whichever units from your collection you want*. Besides being a quick way to get your models on the tabletop, the Unbound method also allows you to try out exciting combinations in your army, such as fielding a whole force of Tanks or Flyers, or even of special characters._

Use whichever units from your collection you want. DT's are units. Techmarines are units. Honorguard are units. Servitors are units. ect. ect. 

If any of the above were just upgrades then you would remove them from the board when the unit they are a upgrade to was removed.

Edit: I am not giving only a section of the unbound rules guys, what I posted in color above is literally everything in regards to Unbound in the new rule book. It is then followed by multiple pages describing Battleforged armies and rules related to Battleforged. The blue part is the only actual Unbound rule, the rest in green is just filler.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

scscofield said:


> I am not giving only a section of the unbound rules guys, what I posted in color above is literally everything in regards to Unbound in the new rule book. It is then followed by multiple pages describing Battleforged armies and rules related to Battleforged. The blue part is the only actual Unbound rule, the rest in green is just filler.


Wild. You'd think there would be more than a sentence, though maybe we should take it as a sign that it is indeed that simple. Codex entries at their points cost totaled up (with their kit, of course) to what you and your opponent agreed to play.


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

My poison on unbound, granted imdont have the rule book yet, is that use you build an army exactl like you normally would... Just without the FOC
It's quite simple...
If you can take the unit, take it... But pay the points and you have to have whatever that unit needs...
Such as (old example but I can't think of anything else)...
If the old tau 'dex was still around... I would still have to take pathfinders and their devilish... The devilish was a compulsory purchase for them therefore I would have to take it... It's the same but in reverse for other transports... In order to take the rhino, you first have to purchase the tactical squad or whatever to ride in it, or not...
I can't see where any confusion could lie...
The 'take whatever you like' is gw saying what the rule is allow you to do... Not literally saying if you have the model you can plonk it on the table fully within RAW...


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## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

The way I looked at it when making this list was that an unbound list let you take any unit you want in your army. As the raider is a unit it means i can ignore any ristrictions normally placed on it. They still need to follow the correct unit size and cost but you can take whatever. If I want my banshees flying around in raiders since their battle brothers, that's fine. As long as I pay the points.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

ntaw said:


> Another one of these kinds of situations comes from Astra Militarum Infantry Platoons, and wanting to JUST field Conscripts. You can't take Conscripts without including a Platoon Command Squad and two Infantry Platoons, but I'm sure there's someone out there (I'm looking at you, @Straken's_Fist) that would love to field just them. I'm sure there are other Codex entries that have similar head scratchers, if we're to follow anything but points cost for Unbound armies.
> 
> Add up the points and throw down!


Yeah speaking to my local FLGS no one cares if I take them...Its not as if it's going to be a good list with just conscripts lol No heavy or special weapons for a start, and once the priest snuffs it they are leadership 5 lol I could think of a million other better lists to take using Unbound..

I think the point is though that very few people will look at unbounded lists as an opportunity to power game, but more as an opportunity to field conceptual lists or fluff lists for fun. And this is how it is clearly intended. Besides, not being able to secure objectives is a big downfall anyways...I think the internet should stop panicking about a.) Unbounded lists and b.) Daemon summoning spam...In reality virtually no one is going to abuse it.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

scscofield said:


> Please show me a codex listing that states that the DT are unit upgrades and not units.


Um, let's see.

Codex: Blood Angels. Page 88 - Tactical Squad Entry - Dedicated Transport: The unit can select any Dedicated Transport.

Followed by Page 90 where it states "Space Marine units have the option of selecting a dedicated transport vehicle."

Note that there is no entry anywhere that says they may be purchased through any method other than by selecting them as a squad.

Also, page 78 of the 6th Ed Rulebook: "sometimes a unit entry in a codex will include a Transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit".

Once again, for emphasis "A unit entry... will include a Transport option".

And once more, even more succintly: "A unit... option".



scscofield said:


> Neither of those codexs have the option of fielding nothing but HQs also.


That's obviously because they were written before the 7th Ed rules.

And you still haven't answered my question. Is this for a casual friendly game, or because you're trying to justify your strategy to people you've never met who just might think you're a bit of a tool?


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Honestly I doubt I will play a game in the next 6 months. I have played maybe 10 games under 6th rules.

I am pointing out that as the rules are written it is perfectly legal to take a DT, because it is a unit. The Unbound rules allow for this.

I have not denied that to do a legal FOC list, it is as you said a transport option. That can only be purchased with a unit. Thing is though, that is in a FOC legal list. 

DT is just the easiest to point out in this case. Servitors, Techmarines, Command Squads, and other units of that nature are all just as legal to spam in a Unbound list without the 'unlocks' 


Page 90 of the BA codex also continues after the line you mentioned with the line: These vehicles do not use up any Force Organization chart selections, but otherwise function as separate units.

The 7th version of DT:
*Dedicated Transports*​Sometimes a unit entry will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These Dedicated Transports do not use up a slot on the force organisation chart, but count as having the same role as the unit they were bought for all other rules purposes.
For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (troops) counts as a unit of troops, but one bought for a unit of Space Marine Sternguard Veteran Squad (elites) counts as elites.
Other vehicles may also have a Transport Capacity, but they are chosen separately as normal, have a role and occupy a force organisation chart slot of their own.
The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly Infantry unit, subject to Transport Capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicle’s entry.​


Also states they become a FOC unit matching the FOC that purchased them, in a Unbound list I argue that without a purchasing unit they would be unclassified FOC units.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

The FOC has nothing to do with it, at all.

I've stated chapter and verse that says they are a unit OPTION and therefore very far removed from "perfectly legal". You're taking the Unbound rules to mean "Ignore every single aspect of making an army with the codex" instead of what it's clearly stating - that you simply do not use the FOC chart. Also, every time there is a conflict between codex and rulebook then CODEX is what you use - not rulebook.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Yep we disagree on DTs. What about the rest of those I've mentioned.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Same story. You're taking "Ignore FOC" to mean "Ignore everything about selecting units" and it isn't. You still need a character to take Command Squads and all the rest of it, because that's what it says in the codex.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Again disagree and done till faq since it is just you and me going in circles


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Personally I hope sethis is right on this one.


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## revilo44 (Sep 17, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> you guys are clearly missing the point of unbound by the looks of it
> as its quoted above
> _The Unbound method is the easiest way to organise an army: *simply use whichever units from your collection you want*. Besides being a quick way to get your models on the tabletop, the Unbound method also allows you to try out exciting combinations in your army, such as fielding a whole force of Tanks or Flyers, or even of special characters._
> 
> ...


I know I'm late to the party and I completely agree with bits on this one, even though I didn't like the sound of unbound at first. I came up with wired and wacky lists and grew to idea.and so what if someone does take bad list don't play if you think it's unfair. At the end of day we just playing with toy solders with a mate for laugh and I think GW is trying to help that.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

I'm in the "'ignoring FOC' does not mean 'ignoring any rules you like'" camp.

I think it is worded quite clearly - Unbound Armies ignore the FOC. If you want to ignore more of the army selection rules then that is fine too, but it is not an Unbound army and you can use your own home-brew rules as much as you like.


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## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

But it says you can use what ever you want in your collection, it's the quickest way to get your models on the table. To me in seems perfectly ok as the raiders in my list are units which means they can be taken without any other rules restrictions.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

I wonder if people are missing what I believe to be the point of the unbound lists. It seems to be for you to take units in the codex without adhering to the FOC. DT are a FOC restriction (they way I see it anyway).

As for the orky/marine/tau list, as long as you adhere to the allies restriction I dont see why you can do this. Eldar riding in Raiders, why the hell not?

I would prefer my opponent to stick to unit limitations (5 to 10 marines in a squad) but when @revilo44 brings an army of Night Lord raptors to the table it will be awesome! Maybe I should take a whole army of storm boyz .... now that would be an great battle!


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## Sworn Radical (Mar 10, 2011)

humakt said:


> I wonder if people are missing what I believe to be the point of the unbound lists.


I don't think anyone is missing anything at all, but ...



> It seems to be for you to take units in the codex without adhering to the FOC. DT are a FOC restriction (they way I see it anyway).


By assembling an _Unbound Army_ you are allowed to ignore FOC restrictions, yes.

_Dedicated Transports_ though, have *nothing* to do with the FOC at all. They're *unit upgrades*.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Sworn Radical said:


> _Dedicated Transports_ though, have *nothing* to do with the FOC at all. They're *unit upgrades*.


I was under the impression they are a unit as they have their own unit entry. In battle forged you must take these as part of a unit dedicated transport. I'm not sure as I don't have a codex available right now but does the Rhino entry, as an example, say it must be taken as an upgrade? I would be interested in the exact wording.


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## Sworn Radical (Mar 10, 2011)

> 7th ed. Rulebook, page 120:
> _'Sometimes a unit's Army List entry will include a *Transport option*, allowing a vehicle *to be selected together with the unit*. These Dedicated Transports do not use up a slot on the Force Organisation Chart (pg. 120), but for all other purposes count as having the same Battlefield Role and Faction (if any) as the unit they were bought for.
> 
> For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marines Tactical Squad (Troops) counts as a unit of Troops, but one bought for a Space Marine Sternguard Veteran Squad (Elites) counts as Elites.
> ...



Dedicated Transports are *allways* an *OPTION* for a certain unit, to be selected together with said unit.
This is clearly indicated in 5th and 6th edition codicees.

Example:



> Codex: Dark Eldar 5th:
> _'Certain units have the option of selecting a Dedicated Transport vehicle ... '_


... and a unit entry:


> _'Options:
> Transports:
> - The squad may take a Raider or Venom as a Dedicated Transport (see page 91 ... '_


Same in 6th ed. entries:



> Codex: Eldar 6th:
> _'Options:
> - The unit may take a Wave Serpent as a Dedicated Transport (see page 97 ... '_



Again, Dedicated Transports are always a very specific* option *for a specific unit.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

I think analyzing the exact rules wording on the shits and giggles with friends mode is probably the most useless thing that anyone can spend time on. There's a reason that mode doesn't have more than a paragraph of rules that aren't precise. Personally I'd be fine with someone running 15 trukks with a wave serpent as warlord but maybe that's not the same for you guys.:victory:


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## Sworn Radical (Mar 10, 2011)

Samules said:


> I think analyzing the exact rules wording on the shits and giggles with friends mode is probably the most useless thing that anyone can spend time on.


Agreed. In this case, analyzing isn't even needed though. Being able to read should clearby be enough.



> There's a reason that mode doesn't have more than a paragraph of rules that aren't precise.


Exactly. There is no need for any more words. It is pretty precise though. :wink:



> Personally I'd be fine with someone running 15 trukks with a wave serpent as warlord but maybe that's not the same for you guys.


Nope, not really. I adore people that are able to enjoy such a stupid game, but in my book (and that of my gaming circle) it simply wouldn't feel _'right'_.
Of course, that, as well as everything else, is an entirely subjective preference.


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## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

Sworn Radical said:


> 'Certain units have the option of selecting a Dedicated Transport vehicle ... '


Exactly they have an option, not an upgrade of selecting it as a transport
An option isn't an upgrade it's a choice at least that's how I look at it.


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## King Gary (Aug 13, 2009)

This whole discussion is why they've brought in the Unbound armies option. 

It's not about adding a whole new list of rules, it's about removing restrictions. Unbound armies to me (and i think a lot of players, particularly the older ones here will agree) is about being a bit more free to come up with interesting ideas for scenarios or army lists. Using another race's DTs sounds like an awesome idea, so does finding your SM army has just come accross the annual howling banshee convention whilst out on a recon mission, or your orks have intercepted an Astra Millitarum attilery column being guarded by 250 lowly conscripts or... It's just about creating "what if?" scenarios. It's about freeing players to come up with their own set of house rules with their regular opponents, it is not about competitive play.

The spirit of the rules does not seem to be about finally being able to spam out a narrow selection of units inorder to win every game in 2 turns. That sort of shit would get very boring VERY quickly. For everyone involved. And players who insist on playing those armies are going to find themselves short of opponents willing to play against them. All this talk of having someone spring a killer combo on you out of nowhere, play against it once, then just ask if they have an allternative list or ask for a rematch but swapping armies. Also (this doesn't seem to have been mentioned allready) i doubt any tournament is going to be allowing unbound armies any time soon and even when they do there's going to be a LONG list of custom restrictions.

Free your minds young ones, step away from the rules and your desire to find out who's better at finding exploits in the rules and remember what it was like to have fun playing the hobby you love. (Or just continue to play against opponents using the FOC if that's your bag).


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

What King Gary said, exactly what he said. Who cares if the codex says you can't take thing a if you have not already taken thing b. If thing a will be fun to use then go for it. Plus the fact a whole army of DT will be pretty poor. Even the mighty wave serpent all on its own would be mediocre compared to a battle forged army. There are only so many glancing hits you can take before you explode.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Which is why I asked about the type of thing he was wanting to play. If with a mate, doesn't matter. But if you went up to a random in the FLGS and said "Unbound game?" And they said "Yep" then they might question the by-the-book legality of how you came up with it, regardless of competitiveness. Avoiding that questioning (and potential disagreement over interpretation) is all we're trying to resolve.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

To me it seems like unbound is a mini apoc option. I'm fine with this actually apoc is one of my favorite games to play, however the scale of it means that playing often isn't an option. Having the chance to play 2000 point bring whatever games is awesome.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

Sethis said:


> Which is why I asked about the type of thing he was wanting to play. If with a mate, doesn't matter. But if you went up to a random in the FLGS and said "Unbound game?" And they said "Yep" then they might question the by-the-book legality of how you came up with it, regardless of competitiveness. Avoiding that questioning (and potential disagreement over interpretation) is all we're trying to resolve.


I don't think it's really possible to do this due to the scope of unbound. You have to ask power list, theme list or silly list at least; a mixed matchup won't be much fun. Plus they literally do not specify if "whatever units from your collection" removes only FOC and single-codex but also specific rules like dedicated transports or unique characters (Ghazgul Thraka and his 6 twins would like a word wif you). It looks to me that in the spirit of unbound they never will. That's just something you have to sort out with your opponent. Just like deciding what is a scoring unit in an army without troops choices. Personally I'd say if you have a model, find the closest codex entry and use its points cost.


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## King Gary (Aug 13, 2009)

If it's a complete random opponent then I'd just say, i'll play whatever, but we play two consecutive games - where we play each others lists. You don't need to see the list before deciding then. If the other guy refuses (without a decent reason) then you know something fishy's going on.

EDIT: or talk with your FLGS owner about coming up with a set of house rules. A simple couple of rules might be all the models have to be represented by the actual model in unbound lists. -

If you've got 10 Gazgull Thrakkas then god speed to you. You've got 10 boyz that you're calling Gazgull? Not a chance.

You've actually got 15 swave serpents? Cool. You got 2 wave serpents, 3 falcons, 5 leman russes and 5 small shoe boxes? Then you play with the ten tanks that you actually own

The other rule, which i like a lot is you only use your oppnents list, and they use yours.


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