# Changes to Marine Fluff



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

So I figured a good discussion maybe about pointing out what you've noticed is different in the new marine codex regarding any part of their fluff. I'll get the ball rolling by pointing out that apparently the Invaders are now a founding of the Imperial Fists.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

I've heard the Scythes of the Emperor have been confirmed as alive and rebuilding.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah that's true, it's at the end of the time line they reappear. The Brazen Claws are said to of exited the Eye of Terror and have been seen fighting around the Eye, on the loyalist side. I read some where else they had turned prior to the new codex but that doesn't appear to be so.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

I do not have the new codex on me, but the more I think about the new fluff that I hear, the more I realize that nothing has really changed. For example, Black Templars may not blindly hate Psykers anymore, but that doesn't mean they can't view other Chapters' Librarians and other Psykers as dangerous witches and wielders of sorcerous powers. The Invaders may be listed as an Imperial Fists descendant, but that doesn't mean such a detail could still be lost in Imperial archives (unless they otherwise act like an IF descendant; then it gets complicated).

Mostly I'm on the lookout for stuff that would step on FFG's _Deathwatch_ chapter fluff, since the team kind of based game mechanics on the previous fluff - Invaders being listed as an unknown-founding chapter in _Honour the Chapter_ (pg. 118), for example.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

I only got a quick look at the book myself today, was anything mentioned about the exorcists and relictors?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Relictors are on the star map, they still appear as a loyalist chapter there. It's mentioned they were part of a three chapter alliance to put down a daemonic invasion I think but all three chapters lost their Chapter Masters at the time. Exorcists are down as an unknown founding, and are randomly involved in several conflicts here and there.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

I'd say there is a bunch of mentions of Black Library battles in the Codex, but with many of them altered or given different descriptions. The Endeavor of Will, is mentioned as being defended by Chaplain Roth and IF Centurions with no mention of Lysander at all in the battle description

One of the strangest examples of the complete removal of Uriel Ventris from the Space Marine Codex, even in battles he is mentioned in. For example, Cassius is cited as the leader of the Ultramarines at Tarsis Ultra, not Ventris, and Idaeus is still referenced as the leader of the 4th despite the book also talking about the Bloodborn's invasion of Ultramar. Other examples exist, but those stand as the most prominent.


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

Gree said:


> I'd say there is a bunch of mentions of Black Library battles in the Codex, but with many of them altered or given different descriptions. The Endeavor of Will, is mentioned as being defended by Chaplain Roth and IF Centurions with no mention of Lysander at all in the battle description
> 
> One of the strangest examples of the complete removal of Uriel Ventris from the Space Marine Codex, even in battles he is mentioned in. For example, Cassius is cited as the leader of the Ultramarines at Tarsis Ultra, not Ventris, and Idaeus is still referenced as the leader of the 4th despite the book also talking about the Bloodborn's invasion of Ultramar. Other examples exist, but those stand as the most prominent.


James Swallow mentioned this at last years Games Day. Basically the codex writers and Black Library have almost no communication at all. He was a bit upset about it, after spending so long on his Blood Angels series only to have a lot of his work massively contradicted. Unfortunately there's no real easy way to rectify this, leading to GW's "everything is canon" statement.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Oh yeah there's also the fact the Fire Lords are an unknown founding, despite them being present at the Feast of Blades which is Dorn Geneseed only, but it goes further and seems to suggest that because they use a lot of fire etc they are reminiscent of the Salamanders but no records of Salamander foundings can be found.

Even those who claim to be descended from Dorn are not automatically allowed, only when they are accepted by the Imperial Fists, for example the Honoured Sons and Angels of Fury claim they are both descendants of Rogal Dorn, the Imperial fists don't recognise them as such, this is written in the "Unknown Foundings" section. They should of had the Excoriators in the book, so much better than the Hammers of Dorn and Invaders.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Grokfog said:


> James Swallow mentioned this at last years Games Day. Basically the codex writers and Black Library have almost no communication at all. He was a bit upset about it, after spending so long on his Blood Angels series only to have a lot of his work massively contradicted. Unfortunately there's no real easy way to rectify this, leading to GW's "everything is canon" statement.


That's odd, since Aaron Dembski-Bowden claims that the studio and Black Library are ''closer than ever'' with tons of communication between then. He's even talked about how he was given feedback on the Black Legion supplement for his Abaddon novel.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Keep in mind there's been a decent while since the release of the last Blood Angels codex and the just recent release of the Black Legion supplement; the working relationship could have changed in that time.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I kind of think they've phoned in the successors of the Imperial Fists, I mean if they were working closely they wouldn't single out the Invaders and make them new Imperial Fist successors and then not highlight the Excoriators which were part of a pretty awesome book, or even acknowledge the Exorciators as a second founding, still only lists Crimson Fists and Black Templars, think they may of copy and pasted the fists part.


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Yeah that's true, it's at the end of the time line they reappear. The Brazen Claws are said to of exited the Eye of Terror and have been seen fighting around the Eye, on the loyalist side. I read some where else they had turned prior to the new codex but that doesn't appear to be so.


Brazen Claws had turned according to Phalanx I think it was, but by the mention in IH successor and the quote of Creed they seem to still be loyalist. 

Erm fluff changes, only part I can comment on knowledgeably is Iron Hands. A fair few changes in that regard. 

Iron Lords are now a IH successor. 

Iron Father's seem to have changed its meaning, before it was the title of our equivalent to Chaplains and Techmarine hybrid. Now it seems to be a title for anyone on the Clan Council. 

Kardan Stronos has been our defacto chapter master for 300 years. He is also a 'free thinker' - I think he is an Alpha Legion plant - though it doesn't seem to be clear if his views are a recent thing or for the whole time he has been on the council. 

We now have chaplains which we haven't had since before third edition if I remember correctly. 

Oh and the Clan Council doesn't seem to be Techie full anymore. 

Off the top of my head that's seems to be all the Iron Hand changes.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Stella Cadente said:


> I only got a quick look at the book myself today, was anything mentioned about the exorcists and relictors?


I assume Exorcist's are being left to FW since they dealt with them in Badab War.



Words_of_Truth said:


> Oh god, apparently everyone still aspires to be like the Ultramarines -
> 
> "While they still venerate their own Primarchs, they nevertheless also aspire to the high standards and wise teachings that Rouboute Guilliman put down in the Codex Astartes"
> 
> pg 14


Lovely to see this little piece of bullshit is still in the Dex. Yeap I'm sure the Iron Hands and White Scars are really gunning to emulate the Codex Astartes and not getting any sleep at night about how they find it sooo hard :scratchhead:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Grokfog said:


> James Swallow mentioned this at last years Games Day. Basically the codex writers and Black Library have almost no communication at all. He was a bit upset about it, after spending so long on his Blood Angels series only to have a lot of his work massively contradicted. Unfortunately there's no real easy way to rectify this, leading to GW's "everything is canon" statement.


Well his series is shit, so no great loss. Codex wasn't much better though tbh.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Jacobite said:


> Lovely to see this little piece of bullshit is still in the Dex. Yeap I'm sure the Iron Hands and White Scars are really gunning to emulate the Codex Astartes and not getting any sleep at night about how they find it sooo hard :scratchhead:


Oh ffs. How did that stay in there? The Space Wolves, Black Templars and numerous other chapters will be joining in with the Hands and Scars on that one. 

But seriously, that quote needs to go fuck off and die somewhere, and then lay there to rot.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Jacobite said:


> Lovely to see this little piece of bullshit is still in the Dex. Yeap I'm sure the Iron Hands and White Scars are really gunning to emulate the Codex Astartes and not getting any sleep at night about how they find it sooo hard :scratchhead:


Nah, it's not that bad. The way I interpreted it is as a return to what was before. Instead of this "wanting-to-be-like-Ultramarines" bullshit in the 5e Codex, now we have them simply adhering to the Codex, as they long have done.

That said, I also can't believe that those three paragraphs are still there, despite the damage control editing done to them.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

I agree it's damage control and it's been toned down from the smurf wank it was before. I have no issue with Chapter's following the Codex Astartes what I have a problem with is this is idea that all other chapters including 1st Founding venerate and aspire to Gulliman. Chapters have gone to come to blows over slights against their honor and you are trying to tell me that the vast overwhelming majority of chapters venerate not only their own genetic heritage and geneseed but also big poppa smurf's as well even when they contradict each other? The 5th edition dex was Ward being a twatmonkey and beefing up his love affair for the boys in blue, the design team letting him and them both having a laugh at nerd rage. This while a step back doesn't make it any less bullshit though.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Yeah, I can see that. I've argued before that the Ultramarines are trying to set _themselves_ up at the standard to which all other Space Marines should aspire, but many first-founding chapters have their own traditions, histories, and philosophies just as deep as that of the Ultramarines, and so will not be so easily moved. Again, I'm sort of shocked that they kept those paragraphs, despite the damage control.

On another note, grav- weapons appear to be a _derivative_ of the graviton guns used in the HH and the Badab War, not the graviton guns themselves. So I was right about that. Muahahahahaha!


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

I don't have any issues with any chapter trying to be the epitome of anything, nor I have a problem with any chapter trying to be the Chapter that all other aspire to be, that's perfectly understandable, hell that's what Emperor's Children were doing before the Heresy (and ultimately lead to their downfall I might add). It's when "the narrator" goes and makes a hugely generalised statement that flies in the face of common sense and a lot of established lore that "Chapter A" (whatever it may be) is the best chapter of them all at everything it means to be a Space Marine that I have issue with. I can't recall any piece of fluff anywhere where a Chapter Master has gone "Well we could win this war but we aren't Ultramarines so... we may not,", or "Captain Boris, Commander of the 3rd Company wished that instead of his 100 White Kestrels he was the Commander of an Ultramarine's Battle Company". Sure some chapters are more suited to some roles than others but to put forward this idea that Ultramarines are the master of all forms of warfare due the CA to extent where all others want to be them is a joke. Put a company of Ultramarines up against a Company of Blood Angels in a close quarters battle and watch as that blue armor turns red very quickly. Strand them behind enemy lines like Shrike and the 3rd Ravenguard were for a few years on Targus III and see how they do.

Grav weapons are different to Gravitation Weapons, how do you mean?


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Jacobite said:


> Grav weapons are different to Gravitation Weapons, how do you mean?


Well, their design is "based upon the graviton weaponry many Legions employed during the Heresy, but those secrets are still locked away in the deepest vaults on Mars..." (under _Ranged Weapons_; don't really have a page number). IIRC some people thought that the grav- weapons _were_ the graviton weapons, but this segment suggests they're similar, but still a separate weapon system from graviton guns. Which I guess was kind of a given, but even so.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Jacobite said:


> Lovely to see this little piece of bullshit is still in the Dex. Yeap I'm sure the Iron Hands and White Scars are really gunning to emulate the Codex Astartes and not getting any sleep at night about how they find it sooo hard :scratchhead:


I'm not particularly sure why people got angry about that line. It just talks about them aspiring to the high teachings and standards of the Codex, which is an entirely sensible thing to do, as the Codex is generally meant to be pretty awesome in the fluff.

It's not even new fluff. Everybody except the Space Wolves was a Codex Chapter back in Second Edition, back when your only had the ''Big Four'' Marine Codices. Granted, Ward phrased it rather indelicately, but it's more or less been GW's line for a while now. 

The following fluff sections in the White Scars and Iron Hands parts of the book for example, mention they do follow the Codex generally, but also have their own traditions and influences from their homeworld and Primarch coloring their combat doctrine. That's probably what the line meant, but phrased in a more delicate manner.



Protoss119 said:


> Yeah, I can see that. I've argued before that the Ultramarines are trying to set _themselves_ up at the standard to which all other Space Marines should aspire, but many first-founding chapters have their own traditions, histories, and philosophies just as deep as that of the Ultramarines, and so will not be so easily moved. Again, I'm sort of shocked that they kept those paragraphs, despite the damage control.


Because the Ultramarines traditionally have been the standard to which all other Astartes are generally held. That's been true both in universe and out. They represent the ''standard'' Space Marine Chapter with everybody else being compared to that. No other Chapter has as many successors or far reaching influence.

I'm not trying to insult anybody's chapter, it's just the way things have been since Second Edition. You had Codex: Space Wolves, Codex: Angels of Death and Codex: Ultramarines, with all the other Space Marine chapters being put into the last. Only later on did it become Codex: Space Marines, and even then it had a heavy Ultramarine focus.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Protoss119 said:


> Instead of this "wanting-to-be-like-Ultramarines" bullshit in the 5e Codex, now we have them simply adhering to the Codex, as they long have done.


Yeah, I'm fine with that. After all, the vast majority of the Adeptus Astartes have adhered to the Codex for one hundred centuries. It's just as much written into every adherent Chapter's history and culture as it is the Ultramarines'.

And to-be-honest, I didn't have as much of a problem with the 5E "every chapter wants to be the Ultramarines" line as other people did.


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

People have been blowing that line out of proportion for a while.

But like Gree mentioned, this isn't new. This is stuff that has been in the fluff for nearly 20 years. Being a Codex Chapter isn't supposed to be a bad thing. It's supposed to be what makes the Space Marines so awesome. 

I think it also stems from a misunderstanding of what being a "Codex Chapter" means. It literally only refers to a chapter having the 10x100 company organization, and adhering to the rules about recruiting, training, and making new Space Marines (which were quality control measures put in place after the Heresy to avoid the uncontrolled and variable quality processes used during the Crusade which contributed to the Heresy). This is a common point where fans and Graham McNeills alike get confused. The Codex isn't a limitation. When Codex: Ultramarines (the same fluff is copy/pasted in the 5E C:SM) mentions the Codex being "rigid" and "strict", it is literally only talking about how a chapter is organized and marked. It's in a section called "The Codex Chapters", a section that has nothing to do with tactics of warfighting. Only with tje hows and whats of a Chapter and its organization.

When Primarchs like Dorn and Russ railed against the Codex, they weren't saying "Screw this giant book that codifies the best practices for making Marines an has a bunch of warfighting advice in it". They were just angry about having to divide up their legions and give up power. 

Following the teachings of the Codex Astartes wis why the Ultramarines are "the greatest of all Space Marine chapters". When it talks about chapters aspiring to live up to the writings of Guilliman, it's not at the expense of their own customs and traditions. It's that they aspire to maintain that high standard for tactical and strategic accomplishment that is contained in the Codex Astartes. That line has nothing to do with traditions, nor customs, or anything else. It just means that the Codex Astartes is venerated as _the_ authoritative guide on how to wage war the Space Marine way. After all, the Codex contains teachings collected from all of the primarchs. Probably even stuff Guilliman learned from the traitors. But probably without crediting them as sources, lol.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Excellent post, Veteran.

One more thing I'd like to add about the Codex Astartes is the "predictable" nature of it. I think a lot of people believe that the CA is very limited. If your opponent does A, you do R. If he does B, you do S. Something very rigid and inflexible. 

At least to my understanding, the CA gives a variety of solutions to any circumstance. Furthermore, it then goes to state the most logical and likely reactions from the enemy and then counters that. Then it goes to the _next_ series of decisions an opponent would likely take and solutions to that would counter most, if not all, of _those_ moves.

Basically the Codex Astartes is thinking ahead of the opponent. And even if an opponent is aware of this, there are likely portions of it that would counter this as well.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Aren't


Veteran Sergeant said:


> I think it also stems from a misunderstanding of what being a "Codex Chapter" means. It literally only refers to a chapter having the 10x100 company organization, and adhering to the rules about recruiting, training, and making new Space Marines


 and


> It's that they aspire to maintain that high standard for tactical and strategic accomplishment that is contained in the Codex Astartes.


 contradictory? 

Either the Codex is only the rules about Chapter organization or it includes tactics and strategy. 



> (which were quality control measures put in place after the Heresy to avoid the uncontrolled and variable quality processes used during the Crusade which contributed to the Heresy).


I haven't seen anything that suggests that Marine creation during the Great Crusade was a) variable in quality or b) a contributing factor in the Heresy. Care to source that?



> When it talks about chapters aspiring to live up to the writings of Guilliman, it's not at the expense of their own customs and traditions. It's that they aspire to maintain that high standard for tactical and strategic accomplishment that is contained in the Codex Astartes. That line has nothing to do with traditions, nor customs, or anything else.


The traditions and customs of a Legion are the foundation upon which it's tactics and strategy are based. Tradition informs strategy and strategy creates tradition. The other Legions fought differently from the Ultramarines because their way of war was based upon different traditions. Corax imparted a tradition of guerrilla warfare to his troops, a tradition that very much affected (and continues to effect) the way in which the Raven Guard fight. In order for one of the original Legions to now fight in the manner of the Ultramarines requires that they abandon the parts of their own traditions, customs and history that affect the way they fight. In other words, everything about them. 



> It just means that the Codex Astartes is venerated as _the_ authoritative guide on how to wage war the Space Marine way.


Which suggests that the way that the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, White Scars, Salamanders and even the Imperial Fists (and numerous other successor Chapters) don't fight war the 'Space Marine way', simply because they don't fight war the way Guilliman thought they should. Why is Guilliman the ultimate authority on how a Space Marine is meant to fight? Why are the tactics and strategies of the other Legions wrong?


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## Chaplain-Grimaldus (Aug 4, 2013)

The part about marine creation and heresy contributing to the heresy is in the new codex quite early on.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

I would also like to point out that the issue is less with the Codex Astartes and the superiority of the Ultramarines than the manner in which these are presented. GW has been able to present these in a relatively objective (objectivity in 40k? HERESY!) manner; the use of frame narrators to describe special characters such as Marneus Calgar, for example, dates back to the 3rd-edition Space Marine codex at least, and the use of such frame narrators made it clear that the high opinion of the Ultramarines is just that, an opinion held by the Imperium as a whole and maintained by the Imperium and the Ultramarines as well. It is when Matt Ward removed these frame narrators in the 5th-edition codex and made such subjective statements fact that readers like myself took issue.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Protoss119 said:


> I would also like to point out that the issue is less with the Codex Astartes and the superiority of the Ultramarines than the manner in which these are presented. GW has been able to present these in a relatively objective (objectivity in 40k? HERESY!) manner; the use of frame narrators to describe special characters such as Marneus Calgar, for example, dates back to the 3rd-edition Space Marine codex at least, and the use of such frame narrators made it clear that the high opinion of the Ultramarines is just that, an opinion held by the Imperium as a whole and maintained by the Imperium and the Ultramarines as well. It is when Matt Ward removed these frame narrators in the 5th-edition codex and made such subjective statements fact that readers like myself took issue.


The Ultramarines have always been stated to be the ''greatest Space Marine Chapter'' since Second Edition. That fluff is not new or invented by Mat Ward, contrary to popular belief. Granted, it was not emphasized as much in 3rd and 4th edition, but it certainly is not new at all. I can pull out the original fluff by Rick Priestly and Jervis Johnson if you would like.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Gree said:


> The Ultramarines have always been stated to be the ''greatest Space Marine Chapter'' since Second Edition. That fluff is not new or invented by Mat Ward, contrary to popular belief. Granted, it was not emphasized as much in 3rd and 4th edition, but it certainly is not new at all. I can pull out the original fluff by Rick Priestly and Jervis Johnson if you would like.


I wholly understand that. I am not saying that the Ultramarines were never emphasized as the greatest of all Space Marines prior to 5th edition. I am saying, however, that it was directly stated in a heavy-handed manner in the 5th-Edition Codex, to the consternation of many fans and readers.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> The traditions and customs of a Legion are the foundation upon which it's tactics and strategy are based. Tradition informs strategy and strategy creates tradition. The other Legions fought differently from the Ultramarines because their way of war was based upon different traditions. Corax imparted a tradition of guerrilla warfare to his troops, a tradition that very much affected (and continues to effect) the way in which the Raven Guard fight. In order for one of the original Legions to now fight in the manner of the Ultramarines requires that they abandon the parts of their own traditions, customs and history that affect the way they fight. In other words, everything about them.
> 
> 
> 
> Which suggests that the way that the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, White Scars, Salamanders and even the Imperial Fists (and numerous other successor Chapters) don't fight war the 'Space Marine way', simply because they don't fight war the way Guilliman thought they should. Why is Guilliman the ultimate authority on how a Space Marine is meant to fight? Why are the tactics and strategies of the other Legions wrong?


This.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

I feel like the Codex Astartes isn't going to prohibit taking the initiative or unbalancing the enemy, using lateral thinking or striking where your opponent doesn't expect you to, etc, any more than Sun Tzu's _The Art of War_ would prohibit such: those are categorically the best ways of winning battles, however much Graham McNiell might view the codex as rigid, static, dogmatic and stultifying (using Uriel Ventris as a foil against this strawman CA, as it were). I don't think that the greatest strategic and tactical mind of the Imperium's history would prescribe sitting on your rear and letting the enemy muster their entire force until you can make a direct frontal attack, or suchlike.

So yes, the Imperial Fists with their "never give up a fight" mentality might not be adhering to the codex at all times, and the White Scars/Iron Hands etc might follow their own chapter make-up guidelines, but a respect for at least the basic precepts laid out in the Codex Astartes is probably a given.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Outside of the chapter size/breakdown guidelines, are there any tactical/strategic guides spelled out in the SM Codex, or anywhere else that might look like an actual Codex Astares? I've never read the GW codicies, but have gone through Graham McNiell's UM books the HH books and virtually every Omnibus out there. I'm thinking that GW has only ever delved into the flavorful aspects of battle as conducted by each chapter, making them exactly who they are, which are not the Ultramarines. Outside of that, they've probably developed "Codex Astares" rules that are only meant to balance the game play and are not deluding themselves into thinking they're the best strategic/tactical thinkers in the world. That being the case, who really knows what's in the full Codex Astares in our imaginary game universe? I would include the various strategic differences exhibited by the legions, their 'flavor', that Guillaumin would obviously understand as effective despite the differences with his own predilictions.

Graham McNeill seems to have reinterpreted the grimdark of 40K by having the modern UMs completely forget Guillaumin's principle that a force commander needs to be flexible if the CA isn't working. He seemed to use the CA as a simple plot tool, and managed degrading it in the process, rather than elevating it to the seminal work that Astares chapters galaxy-wide would want to use. On a whole, I think the UM books make the chapter look like a bunch of hide-bound bureaucrats more concerned with following rules than defending the Imperium... with Uriel Ventris the image of what a supersoldier the UMs can be if it weren't for that damn Codex Astares standing in the way.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Mossy Toes said:


> but a respect for at least the basic precepts laid out in the Codex Astartes is probably a given.


Given that the basic precepts you've suggested are common-sense I would hope so. Of course I'm not sure it's fair to credit the Codex with giving them that common-sense, just like I don't think it's fair to give Sun Tzu credit for the successes of Alexander.


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

MEQinc said:


> Aren't and contradictory?
> 
> Either the Codex is only the rules about Chapter organization or it includes tactics and strategy.


 No. It's not contradictory. It is important to read the paragraphs in between the two random quotes you selected. The Codex has many different parts of it. So it is not contradictory for a Chapter to ignore the part of it about how to organize a Chapter, but still accept the other parts regarding the conduct of warfare of it as the ideal. Think about the way some people approach the Bible or the Koran. There's some parts they just ignore because it's convenient, but hold the book up as an ideal just the same. The Codex Astartes is described like this: "the Codex Astartes amounts to an authoritative guide to waging war in any number of ways on countless different types of worlds." It isn't like Corax or Khaaaaaan or even Alpharius thought of some way to fight that Guilliman hadn't considered. Sometimes you can't ride your bikes because of the terrain. Or the atmospheric conditions rule out jump packs. Warfare has a gajillion different variables to it. And they never end up being evenly balanced forces on neutral terrain like on the tabletop where we can pretend the Raven Guard always use scout and the White Scars always use bikes, lol. 




> I haven't seen anything that suggests that Marine creation during the Great Crusade was a) variable in quality or b) a contributing factor in the Heresy. Care to source that?





Chaplain-Grimaldus said:


> The part about marine creation and heresy contributing to the heresy is in the new codex quite early on.


It originated in 2nd Edition's Codex: Ultramarines (p.9, also C:SM5E on p.8) . It's not undisputed fact, the idea that the loose standards in the Great Crusade for making new Marines was something Guilliman just believed _might_ have contributed to the issues. I tend to give Guilliman the benefit of the doubt in his analysis since it's been established in the lore that he was a fairly smart guy, lol.




> The traditions and customs of a Legion are the foundation upon which it's tactics and strategy are based. Tradition informs strategy and strategy creates tradition. The other Legions fought differently from the Ultramarines because their way of war was based upon different traditions. Corax imparted a tradition of guerrilla warfare to his troops, a tradition that very much affected (and continues to effect) the way in which the Raven Guard fight. In order for one of the original Legions to now fight in the manner of the Ultramarines requires that they abandon the parts of their own traditions, customs and history that affect the way they fight. In other words, everything about them.


 Not really. A lot of these ideas of yours are based on middling fiction by fairly average authors creating license fiction novels, and mixed with you probably not having any contextual knowledge about how wars are fought. The reality is that while the Raven Guard might like to be sneaky, you can't _always_ be sneaky. Especially when you are Space Marines who are seven feet tall and weigh probably around 800 pounds with their armor and gear. And use rocket packs to move around and chainsaw swords. Sometimes, you just have to be loud and direct. Space Marines aren't even well suited for guerrilla warfare anyway. The reality is, there's a lot of bad fluff that is essentially glorified fan fiction published under the Black Library banner, and it contradicts the established GW fluff for the universe, as well as often common sense, lol. In these cases, it's important to remember that there is no top level, coherent editorial vision at TBL. The author pitches his idea. If the idea is approved, the author writes the book. It's checked for basic errors in grammar/spelling/diction, and then published without regard for its adherence to the canon, because they know people will buy them anyway because it's not a discerning audience. Twilight is for teenage girls, 50 Shades is for unfulfilled women in their late twenties and older, and 40K fiction is for teenage boys. These aren't audiences that care about form and theme and style and understanding of military theory.

The reality is that the way the Blood Angels or Raven Guard or other chapters would have fought in the Great Crusade is hardly much different than how the Ultramarines would have fought. Just like Graham McNeill doesn't understand how the Codex Astartes would work, guess what a lot of the other Black Library authors also don't have any relevant knowledge of? 

I was a US Marine for a decade. I'm from coastal Southern California and my parents are liberals (my mom was even a teacher). I read a ton of books, surfed, and played tennis in high school. Culturally, I had nothing in common with the ******** I met from the South, or people who came from big cities. And definitely not with any of the foreign military members I had the opportunity to work with. And yet, we all fought war more or less the same way, because there's a best way, or a proven way of doing things that doesn't change just because of where you came from. Space Marines are engineered for war, and a very specific kind of warfare. It's easy for some novice author to write "We have no center" about the White Scars, but the reality is, they had a giant supply train, and a fleet, and a list of worlds to go conquer, so they did it. And they only had 200 years to do it, so chances are, they were doing it the efficient way. We saw what happened to the Primarchs who took their time.



> Which suggests that the way that the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, White Scars, Salamanders and even the Imperial Fists (and numerous other successor Chapters) don't fight war the 'Space Marine way', simply because they don't fight war the way Guilliman thought they should. Why is Guilliman the ultimate authority on how a Space Marine is meant to fight? Why are the tactics and strategies of the other Legions wrong?


Why is Guilliman the ultimate authority? Because GW told us so. Railing against that established fact of the setting seems rather silly. These are all imaginary multi-colored space men with giant rocket rifles. Rick Priestley and his buddies sat down one day and said "Okay, so which of these guys is the best at warfare?" and the answer was Roboute Guilliman, and somebody had read _Art of War_ or Clausewitz once, and said "What if this guy Guilliman was like so ridiculously smart about warfare that he wrote the 40K Art of War and it's what Space Marines use?" And thus the Codex Astartes was born. 

I think a lot of people don't really grasp what the Codex Astartes is. Maybe this is colored by the Graham McNeill school of Space Marining where it's described as some kind of "If A, Then B" instruction manual. Which, it is important to note, it was _never_ described as, and would never be, since the fluff establishes that Marneus Calgar is one of the greatest tactical minds to ever live. If that's the case, and the Ultramarines revere the Codex's teachings more than anyone else, how could it possibly be restrictive? The answer is, it can't. So the Codex covers all the ways you can fight as a Space Marine. It really doesn't matter if the Iron Hands have body image issues. They still need to take that stronghold on the hill with the overlapping air defense systems and a void shield? Well, the Codex has some ideas on how you might do that. The Black Templars like to spaz out and fight with swords and ride around in Land Raiders, but the terrain is too unstable and restrictive for large tanks or drop pod assaults? Well, the Codex probably has an idea for how you could proceed.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Damn it, and I just +repped you for your plog, Veteran Sergeant.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I want to add this little bit...

I figure the the Codex Astartes covers almost every sort of warfare.

"If you are a highly mobile force, fighting against force A, then these are the 37 different ways you may proceed." "If you are in a siege situation with excellent arcs of fire, then here are the 12 likely ways your enemy will attempt to storm your keep."

Stuff like that. Just because an Ultramarine force may fight a particular way, does not mean the Codex Astartes does not apply to other modes of warfare. A White Scars force may very well focus on certain parts of the Codex Astartes that differ from an Imperial Fist army which is again different from how a Blood Angels' captain will fight. But it's all in the book. Theoretically.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Gree said:


> That's odd, since Aaron Dembski-Bowden claims that the studio and Black Library are ''closer than ever'' with tons of communication between then. He's even talked about how he was given feedback on the Black Legion supplement for his Abaddon novel.


"Claims". Tut tut, sir!

Bear in mind, what Jim is referring to is a miscommunication almost_ three years old_, now. It was before everything merged into Publishing in 2013, and even before BL got additional editors in 2011 for lore-checking and communication.

Added to that, different authors have different relationships with Forge World; with different codex writers; with different staff, etc. There are degrees of communication and involvement, on a personal level.

And I wasn't given feedback on the Black Legion supplement for my Black Legion series. I was the one to give feedback for the supplement, to make sure it complied slightly more with the series itself, and the sources I was using. Was a nice touch, that they'd reach out like that, even if it was on a frighteningly quick turnaround. But there's a clear difference between Jim's work being entirely ignored and him never speaking to Mat Ward until long after the codex was out... and them emailing me several times about the Black Legion supplement, while they also actually had my first novel synopsis, and repeatedly asked for feedback so things didn't clash.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> "Claims". Tut tut, sir!
> 
> Bear in mind, what Jim is referring to is a miscommunication almost_ three years old_, now. It was before everything merged into Publishing in 2013, and even before BL got additional editors in 2011 for lore-checking and communication.
> 
> ...


My apologies then. You mentioned on Bolter and Chainsword that you had been in communication with the development team for the supplement and I was perplexed by the seeming disconnect between Black Library and the Codex fluff.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Veteran Sergeant said:


> It isn't like Corax or Khaaaaaan or even Alpharius thought of some way to fight that Guilliman hadn't considered.




See, this is the kind of Guilliman-wank I object to. Guilliman is not a master strategist he is a master of logistics, that's all he's ever established as being. The idea that he would know more about a type of warfare he barely uses than a brother Primarch who has devoted his every waking moment to the mastery of it is ridiculous. Guilliman simply isn't that smart, nor are his brother's that dumb. The Codex isn't his master-stroke because it contains all his unequaled genius but because it collects the wisdom of everyone, especially his betters.




> It originated in 2nd Edition's Codex: Ultramarines (p.9, also C:SM5E on p.8) . It's not undisputed fact, the idea that the loose standards in the Great Crusade for making new Marines was something Guilliman just believed _might_ have contributed to the issues. I tend to give Guilliman the benefit of the doubt in his analysis since it's been established in the lore that he was a fairly smart guy, lol.


Ah, I see. I don't have access to that fluff, so thanks for letting me know. Given that it doesn't mesh at all with the HH fluff I'll file it as another of Guilliman's mistakes.



> Not really. A lot of these ideas of yours are based on middling fiction by fairly average authors creating license fiction novels, and mixed with you probably not having any contextual knowledge about how wars are fought.


Or, more accurately, they're based of fluff and an understanding of ancient warrior cultures. Sure, modern soldiers don't have much by way of military traditions impacting their tactics but that hasn't been true for much of human history. Space Marines are intentionally a throwback to the warrior cultures of antiquity. They aren't special forces, doing their job as efficiently as possible; they're Spartan hoplites, standing firm in the face of adversity and progress; they're Germanic berskers, fearlessly resisting a numberless oppressor; they're gladiators, Vikings, Mongols. They aren't soldiers, they're warriors with the warrior cultures that implies. 



> The reality is that while the Raven Guard might like to be sneaky, you can't _always_ be sneaky.


It's not that the Raven Guard like to be sneaky, it's that they approach every problem from the perspective of minimizing engagements. That doesn't always translate to stealth, that's why their Chapter makes such heavy use of assault troops. But that's fundamentally not how the Ultramarines approach their problems. 



> The reality is, there's a lot of bad fluff that is essentially glorified fan fiction published under the Black Library banner, and it contradicts the established GW fluff for the universe,


No, the reality is that everything published under the Black Library banner *is* the established fluff for the universe.



> The reality is that the way the Blood Angels or Raven Guard or other chapters would have fought in the Great Crusade is hardly much different than how the Ultramarines would have fought.


Again that's not true. We know that they didn't fight in the same way. You might think they should've but until you get that published by BL then it's not what happened. We know, with absolute certainty, that every Legion approached warfare in different ways. We know that they all achieve success, across all the theaters they fought in. And we therefore know that their ways of fighting, their military traditions and their customs, are equally effective.



> Space Marines are engineered for war, and a very specific kind of warfare.


Space Marines were certainly not engineered for a specific kind of war, they were created to fight whoever, wherever and however humanity needs them to. We see them engage in every type of combat conceivable, we see certain Legions specialize in everything from infiltration and guerrilla warfare to frontal assaults and sieges. And we see them succeed. Because all Space Marines were engineered to do is win.



> Why is Guilliman the ultimate authority? Because GW told us so.


Except they haven't told us that. They've told us that Guilliman and the Ultramarines *believe* he is the ultimate authority, but that doesn't make it true. Surely the Emperor, the mastermind of the Great Crusade, the father of the Primarchs and the designer of the Space Marines is the true authority on how they were meant to fight? The Emperor never once comments on what way he thinks is proper for Space Marines to fight. He looks at his diverse sons and their diverse Legions and he turns to exactly none of them to criticize their way of war. If he can accept such diverse warrior cultures, why should we believe Guilliman's claims that they are wrong?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Veteran Sergeant said:


> The reality is that while the Raven Guard might like to be sneaky, you can't _always_ be sneaky. Especially when you are Space Marines who are seven feet tall and weigh probably around 800 pounds with their armor and gear. And use rocket packs to move around and chainsaw swords. Sometimes, you just have to be loud and direct. Space Marines aren't even well suited for guerrilla warfare anyway.
> 
> The reality is that the way the Blood Angels or Raven Guard or other chapters would have fought in the Great Crusade is hardly much different than how the Ultramarines would have fought. Just like Graham McNeill doesn't understand how the Codex Astartes would work, guess what a lot of the other Black Library authors also don't have any relevant knowledge of?


Couldn't even begin to disagree anymore with you on these points in particular. The Raven Guard are outright masters of stealth, the Ultramarines, could never even hope to emmulate them, no matter how far into the codex they read. And they can, and do fight guerrilla warfare, and they do it very, very well. Look to Shrike for a prime example of this in the 40k setting and then just look to the Istvaan survivors on how well Astartes from any Legion can fight a guerilla war well in the Heresy era.

As for the second point. We know for a fact that virtually all the Legions fought in completely different ways during the Crusade. The Ultramarines fought nothing like the Blood Angels or Raven Guard, not even close. They literally can't stealth as well as the Raven Guard, just read _Angel Exterminatus_ or _Soulforge_, to see why. Nor did they fight like any of the other legions, the Heresy series has gone through great lengths to show how different every Legion was and how they operated.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Couldn't even begin to disagree anymore with you on these points in particular. The Raven Guard are outright masters of stealth, the Ultramarines, could never even hope to emmulate them, no matter how far into the codex they read. And they can, and do fight guerrilla warfare, and they do it very, very well. Look to Shrike for a prime example of this in the 40k setting and then just look to the Istvaan survivors on how well Astartes from any Legion can fight a guerilla war well in the Heresy era.
> 
> As for the second point. We know for a fact that virtually all the Legions fought in completely different ways during the Crusade. The Ultramarines fought nothing like the Blood Angels or Raven Guard, not even close. They literally can't stealth as well as the Raven Guard, just read _Angel Exterminatus_ or _Soulforge_, to see why. Nor did they fight like any of the other legions, the Heresy series has gone through great lengths to show how different every Legion was and how they operated.


The Ultramarines's matching the Raven Guard makes more sense when looking at the older fluff, before Black Library made them into uber magic ninjas.
_
"The Raven Guard follows the dictates of the Codex Astartes closely, though they do differ in the tactical application of their troops. The Raven Guard depends heavily on Scout forces able to act alone for extended periods of time, and rapid reaction forces such as jump pack equipped assault troops. Quite commonly, they will deploy their tactical squads in Drop Pod manoeuvres or Thunderhawks in response to intelligence gathered by their Scouts. The Chapter's forte in covert operations means that they will rarely engage in a frontal battle unless no other option presents itself. Where possible, the Raven Guard will use precise application of force to cripple their enemy while avoiding a protracted engagement."_-Index Astartes: Raven Guard

The Index Astartes as a whole had more of a focus on rapid strikes and surgical precision behind enemy lines instead of being magic stealth ninjas. I'm not saying any interpretation is wrong, just noting the history behind the studio fluff.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

But Shrikes fluff isn't anything to do with super ninjas. They just work very well behind enemy lines, using covert means and tactics honed over ten thousand years. How could the Ultramarines ever hope to beat that kind of expertise? It's one thing to follow a set of tactics as laid out by the codex, it's quite another to have an innate and ingrained set of strategies and doctrines that are a primary focus, and have been practiced non stop since the creation of Astartes.

It's essentially the whole, jack of all trades, master of none. Which is essentially the Ultramarines in a nutshell, along with anyone else who just follows the standard Codex template. And that isn't a dig at them either, it's needed and useful to have, also an incredibly hard skill set to achieve. But the Raven Guard will always be better at stealth, the Blood Angels at shock assault, the White Scars at rapid hit and run tactics, and so on and so forth.


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

I mean, I'm perfectly willing to let you guys stick fingers in your ears and yeah about not being able to hear me, but I really hope you don't expect to be dignified with a response, lol.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> But Shrikes fluff isn't anything to do with super ninjas.


You cited Black Library sources on Raven Guard stealth. I pointed out that those were magic super ninjas. Shrike neither appears in Angel Exterminatus or Soulforge to my knowledge. Nor did Shrike appear in Index Astartes.



Angel of Blood said:


> They just work very well behind enemy lines, using covert means and tactics honed over ten thousand years. How could the Ultramarines ever hope to beat that kind of expertise? It's one thing to follow a set of tactics as laid out by the codex, it's quite another to have an innate and ingrained set of strategies and doctrines that are a primary focus, and have been practiced non stop since the creation of Astartes.


You miss my point. I was simply pointing out that older fluff differed from more modern interpretations of the Raven Guard. The older fluff simply had the Raven Guard as a Codex Chapter that made excellent use of scouts and preferred a use of precise surgical strikes.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Guilliman is not a master strategist he is a master of logistics, that's all he's ever established as being. The idea that he would know more about a type of warfare he barely uses than a brother Primarch who has devoted his every waking moment to the mastery of it is ridiculous. Guilliman simply isn't that smart, nor are his brother's that dumb. The Codex isn't his master-stroke because it contains all his unequaled genius but because it collects the wisdom of everyone, especially his betters.
> 
> If he can accept such diverse warrior cultures, why should we believe Guilliman's claims that they are wrong?


I appreciate the whole debate, but you seem fixated on creating a straw man that Guilliman actively denied and/or denigrated either the wisdom, strategies or culture of his brothers, which I have seen or heard absolutely nothing in the fluff to support. Until we get past the end of the HH and move on to the Scouring, we have no idea about Guilliman's consultation with his brothers about the CA.

Sure, it seems that most of the loyalist Primarchs get pissed when he tries to dictate the post-HH Astares force size and structure, but from everything I've heard thats more about preventing the rise of another Horus than him trying to hector his brothers because he's smarter/better than them.

I agree with you there's no way Guilliman is better at the various strategic styles his brothers use than they are. There is something to be said, to the contrary, that he's not married to one particular style, but gains a larger strategic perspective because he is willing to look at all styles and the most effective way to assault/defend against each. Most of the Alpha Legion shenanigans seem premised on Alpharius/Omegon taking exactly this approach and effectively using it against their brothers weaknesses. :victory:


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Gree said:


> You miss my point. I was simply pointing out that older fluff differed from more modern interpretations of the Raven Guard. The older fluff simply had the Raven Guard as a Codex Chapter that made excellent use of scouts and preferred a use of precise surgical strikes.



That was more of a lack of development from GWs point of view and how they focused on the four big chapters, the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Black Templars. Every other chapter was similarly tarred with the codex brush at that point.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> That was more of a lack of development from GWs point of view and how they focused on the four big chapters, the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Black Templars. Every other chapter was similarly tarred with the codex brush at that point.


I reference Index Astartes: Raven Guard, which was an entire article dedicated to the Raven Guard, so it's hardly neglect by Games Workshop in terms of fluff. Nor is it a ''tarring'' by making the Raven Guard a Codex Chapter.

After all, it's in the lore that most Chapters are more or less Codex Chapters. Some deviate further than others, but everybody is at least organized broadly according to Codex guidelines. It was originally just the Space Wolves who were completely non-Codex, with the Black Templars later after the Templars proved to be unexpectedly popular.

And since when were the Black Templars part of the ''Big Four''? They were a popular army, but added later in 3rd edition. The ''Big Four'' so to speak, for a while, was the Ultramarines, the Dark/Blood Angels, and the Space Wolves.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Gree said:


> You cited Black Library sources on Raven Guard stealth. I pointed out that those were magic super ninjas. Shrike neither appears in Angel Exterminatus or Soulforge to my knowledge. Nor did Shrike appear in Index Astartes.
> 
> You miss my point. I was simply pointing out that older fluff differed from more modern interpretations of the Raven Guard. The older fluff simply had the Raven Guard as a Codex Chapter that made excellent use of scouts and preferred a use of precise surgical strikes.


Indeed, but that's from 40k, they, like most of the First Founding, operated very differently back in the Great Crusade era. The Index Astartes articles were all very generic on how they fought back in the days of the Crusade and Heresy, more focused on how they fought in 40k. Like I said, the Heresy series is expanding on almost all the Legions, to show how different it was back then, which makes sense. And I fully admit, some of the novels are very poor, but to be fair, their aren't a huge amount of ninjas running about, just a few select group. 

And Shrike is 40k. 4th ed?


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Indeed, but that's from 40k, they, like most of the First Founding, operated very differently back in the Great Crusade era. The Index Astartes articles were all very generic on how they fought back in the days of the Crusade and Heresy, more focused on how they fought in 40k. Like I said, the Heresy series is expanding on almost all the Legions, to show how different it was back then, which makes sense. And I fully admit, some of the novels are very poor, but to be fair, their aren't a huge amount of ninjas running about, just a few select group.


How the Raven Guard fought in the Heresy isn't particularly relevant to this argument. After all, we are talking about the Raven Guard in the 41st millenium. And even then we have ''space ninjas'' in Chapter's Due, were Raven Guard Astartes in full power armor sneak up on Telion.

Regardless my main point was that originally the Raven Guard weren't these uber stealth specialists. Their main stealth force in older fluff was mostly the Scouts, and that was even reflected in the original White Dwarf rules for Raven Guard, which gave bonuses to Scouts.

Anything else after that is at least partially credited to Black Library.



Angel of Blood said:


> And Shrike is 40k. 4th ed?


And fortunately I am referencing 3rd Edition fluff.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Which is essentially the Ultramarines in a nutshell, along with anyone else who just follows the standard Codex template.


I've been sort of side-stepped in the conversation, but I really want to nail this "standard codex template".

Who is to say that the Blood Angels' tactics aren't following the Codex Astartes to the letter? The Imperial Fist? The White Scars? 

The Codex Astartes is supposed to cover every means and method of combat. I am sure Guilliman would have been wise enough to add the knowledge and lessons his brother Primarchs learned in their 200 years of crusading. 

_Just because the Ulramarines do not practice are not even capable of practicing a portion of Codex Astartes, does not mean that it is not within the Codex Astartes_.

Do I have any direct proof that this is the case? Well, no. But I think it's a fairly logical inference that Guilliman would have codified the success of his brothers into his book of knowledge.

So despite fighting very differently--despite fighting very different from the Ultramarines--does not mean a particular Codex Chapter does not follow the Codex Astartes to the letter. 

The fact of the matter is, I doubt very much there's a "Codex Template" that you could use to encompass all Codex Chapters' tactics. The Codex covers everything--or should just about cover everything.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well for a start, the Blood Angels use unique units that don't fall under the codex. The Sanguinary Guard, Furioso Dreadnoughts, Baal Predators, or the most obvious one, the Death Company. And though Guilliman was brilliant, unrivaled even as far as logistics and planning goes in his way, and in documenting everything, he can't have done _everything_, because there aren't a finite amount of tactics and strategies, you can always develop new one, improve upon others, alter existing ones. I've no doubt he studied his brothers teaching and tried to incorporate as much as he possibly could into the Codex, but there's just no way he could have incorporated every single tactic and doctrine the original Legions had. The codex was written ten thousand years ago in the timeline. In ten thousands years, the Raven Guard, White Scars, Blood Angels, have carried on fighting in with their own styles and methods. Sure they adopted the layout as best as they could, breaking down into the chapters and companies. But they still fought their own way, instead of the 'jack of all trades' method the Ultramarines and so many other chapters go for. And in ten thousand years of fighting warfare with stealth, hit and run, shock assault, etc, your going to have made more tactics, more breakthroughs, etc, which wouldn't be in the codex.

Also, I still think it's highly relevant that the codex was only ever meant to be a guide. Not a rulebook like the Ultramarines believe it to be, to the extremes of exiling Astartes who deviate from it.

And when I say 'standard Codex template', I mean the basic layout of the companies, with no deviation into one specialty. Like the Ultramarines, do and a good majority of chapters. Having no distinct specialisation, just changing to whatever they need when the situation arises. As opposed to the White Scars, who focus almost exclusively on hit and run tactics, mounted warfare.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Well for a start, the Blood Angels use unique units that don't fall under the codex.


That's a matter of organization. If I was specific enough, I meant about tactics or the means a commander utilizes the forces at his disposal. 

As for the unique vehicles...I do not believe the Codex limits itself on what sorts of vehicles it has? 



Angel of Blood said:


> The codex was written ten thousand years ago in the timeline.


The Codex has been updated through the years. Per the 5th edition SM codex, "These guidelines have been much modified over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the 41st Millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history."



Angel of Blood said:


> But they still fought their own way, instead of the 'jack of all trades' method the Ultramarines and so many other chapters go for.


Outside the basic organization and logistical portion of the Codex (10 companies, 10th being the reserved, universal system of marking units, ect.) the specific tactics of a force can vary greatly.

Let me try to state my point succinctly. The Ultramarines may be a jack of all trades, but this does not mean every Codex Chapter must be. The Codex probably has hundreds, if not thousands, of pages devoted to defeating a foe via stealth rather than brute force. Or hit and run tactics instead of a stand up fight.

A Chapter is a small enough force that it can focus on a smaller portion of the Codex if it serves its own purpose.


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

Words_of_Truth said:


> That was more of a lack of development from GWs point of view and how they focused on the four big chapters, the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Black Templars. Every other chapter was similarly tarred with the codex brush at that point.


Probably because Games Workshop wrote the fluff for the game, and being a Codex Chapter was a good thing, so most chapters would be Codex ones. 

You not _liking _that fact is an entirely different thing, but it doesn't change the fluff. I don't like that the Orks are infinitely reproducing galactic space mold that got the Grimdark+1 treatment of reproducing by getting whacked on the head. That's still the fluff. I liked it better when they were the galaxy's obnoxious neighbors who spent their whole existence in a continual loop of The Road Warrior until an especially powerful warlord would get them all riled up to break somebody _else's[i/] stuff. Sadly, just like GW didn't consult you on how you wanted the fluff to be written, they didn't consult me either. Though, given my credentials, they probably should have.

Honestly, I'll take Games Workshop's fluff over some of the crap that Black Library churns out more any day.

Almost every modern general reads all of the seminal works on warfare. A modern general who hadn't read Art of War and understood its principles would be a rare one indeed. By that token, the Codex Astartes is the Art of Space Marine War. Some of you have mistakenly construed it as something else, and we'll forgive your errors. Not everyone is as well versed in 40K lore. But arguing against what the core fluff of the game has said, and has continued to say for 20 years, is just kinda silly.

One of the problems that you run into is where you see the Ultramarines as the "Jacks of All Trades". This isn't true. The Ultramarines, from the beginning, have been described as the masters of all of them. And the other Codex Chapters, like the Imperial Fists, are written about in the same vein. 

The other problem you have is considering the Codex Astartes to be a rulebook. That's stupid Graham McNeill talk again. Being a Codex Chapter means being a 10x100 company organization, marking your squads and companies, and recruiting and training Space Marines according to a prescribed fashion. It has nothing to do with the strategy and tactics that are also in the Codex. The only point in the official Games Workshop fluff about the Codex Astartes where the terms "strict" and "rigid" are use, are when it is talking about how a Codex Chapter is organized, and how it selects and trains its Marines. 


Again, you not liking the fluff =/= it not actually being the established fluff. Being a Codex Chapter is a good thing, because the Codex is, again, "an authoritative guide to waging war in any number of ways on countless different types of worlds."

Surely somewhere in that any number of ways, you will find the ways that the Blood Angels, White Scars, and Raven Guard fight. :laugh: 

I feel like the Codex was written by a functional immortal who was engineered by a functional god and had hundreds of years to write his masterpiece. If you're thinking of his limitations in the context of "Damn, that semester of calculus was pretty hard", you're falling a bit short of what his capabilities are supposed to have been like._


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

It's also important to note that Guilliman wasn't so much smarter than his brothers that he was the only one capable of writing the Codex. He was just the one who had the patience and foresight to do so. So while other Primarchs got to die gloriously, or serve at the Battle of Terra, Guilliman got to write a book.

It's important to divorce your love for a specific color of plastic toy soldier, and just read the fluff for what it is. Guilliman writing the Art of Space Marine War doesn't make your favorite Space Marines bad, and it never did. Only one guy got to write the Codex, and GW decided it was Guilliman. One guy got to be the hero of the Scouring. GW decided it was Guilliman. Almost every Primarch got a way that they shined. Stop being so angry for the way that was given to Guilliman.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> I appreciate the whole debate, but you seem fixated on creating a straw man that Guilliman actively denied and/or denigrated either the wisdom, strategies or culture of his brothers, which I have seen or heard absolutely nothing in the fluff to support.


I actually said that the Codex was a master-stroke precisely because Guilliman didn't ignore the wisdom of his brothers. I said that because I felt that Veteran Sergeant was saying exactly what you thought I said, that Guillliman didn't include his brothers wisdom, going so far as to say that no other Primarch ever had a strategy that Guilliman hadn't already thought of. 



hailene said:


> _Just because the Ulramarines do not practice are not even capable of practicing a portion of Codex Astartes, does not mean that it is not within the Codex Astartes_.


But the whole entire point of the Ultramarines is that they do practice the entirety of the Codex. They follow it with a religious devotion and each and every member devotes himself to memorizing a portion of it. So either the Ultramarines practice the entire Codex, or they fail at their basic purpose. 



Veteran Sergeant said:


> Honestly, I'll take Games Workshop's fluff over some of the crap that Black Library churns out more any day.


Again ignoring the fact that everything Black Library produces is fluff. And that it accounts for the largest percentage, and most in depth analysis, of the fluff.



> One of the problems that you run into is where you see the Ultramarines as the "Jacks of All Trades". This isn't true. The Ultramarines, from the beginning, have been described as the masters of all of them.


No they aren't. When one describes the Masters of Stealth, one does not name the Ultramarines but rather the Raven Guard or Night Lords. When one describes the Masters of Siege Warfare, one does not name the Ultramarines but rather the Iron Warriors or Imperial Fists. So on and so forth. One can only accurately describe the Ultramarines as masters of logistics and planning. The Ultramarines greatest strength is their ability to adapt to any situation, not their mastery of that situation. Otherwise, what would be the point of the other Legions/Chapters?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm sorry, but the Ultramarines have never been described as the master of all. You find me a quote that says otherwise. They are renowned for being the most versatile chapter, but they have never been described as the master of all trades. This is the point I am arguing. The White Scars will always be better than the Ultramarines at Hit and Run, the Blood angels will away be better at shock assault, the Raven Guard at stealth, the Imperial Fists at siege warfare, the Iron Hands at machinery and so on and so forth. This isn't me not liking fluff, it's simple fact. 

And Mcneill, says they follow the Codex like a rulebook, again, to the point of them exiling Astartes who deviate from the Codex, to them it is law, you do not step outside of it. Just because you think Mcneill is talking rubbish, it doesn't change the fact that it's canon and what the Ultramarines do. 

And you don't want to go down the path of 'Not everyone is as well versed in 40K lore'.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> But the whole entire point of the Ultramarines is that they do practice the entirety of the Codex. They follow it with a religious devotion and each and every member devotes himself to memorizing a portion of it. So either the Ultramarines practice the entire Codex, or they fail at their basic purpose.


I think this is an extremely odd supposition. And a supposition it is.

They probably haven't done everything in it--every circumstance Guilliman or the hundreds of other authors since probably hasn't occurred to a Codex following force. 

And just because they know every bit they have to do every bit...or they fail? What insanity is this?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

The thing with the Codex is that it has ways of organizing an astartes force as well as what to do with certain situations. For every situation there is suppose to be hundreds of pages to tell you what to do. In this sense, the Ultramarines are pretty much shown by the mainstream GW organization to be the best. The problem I have with a codex that has thousands of pages is that you could interpret things differently. There are many combat situations that are similar, and I agree that the Ultramarines treat the Codex like a bible. Another problem with the codex is applying tactic to the strength of an enemy. There are many different races and technology that have developed since Guilliman that cannot be treated with the same tactic. Where would you go for this if your an Ultramarine. It is more than probable that they go with what has been written anyway. Also, relying on tactic to defeat a chaos army is completely flawed in my eyes. The amount of power a chaos army has in unpredicatable no matter what the size of the army.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> And Mcneill, says they follow the Codex like a rulebook, again, to the point of them exiling Astartes who deviate from the Codex, to them it is law, you do not step outside of it. Just because you think Mcneill is talking rubbish, it doesn't change the fact that it's canon and what the Ultramarines do.


It's ''canon'' as much as any other interpretation of the Ultramarines out there. McNeill's vision isn't the only one for the Ultramarines. Not saying it's necessarily wrong, but there's a reason many Ultramarine players chose to ignore him.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Veteran Sergeant said:


> It's also important to note that Guilliman wasn't so much smarter than his brothers that he was the only one capable of writing the Codex. He was just the one who had the patience and foresight to do so. So while other Primarchs got to die gloriously, or serve at the Battle of Terra, Guilliman got to write a book.
> 
> It's important to divorce your love for a specific color of plastic toy soldier, and just read the fluff for what it is. Guilliman writing the Art of Space Marine War doesn't make your favorite Space Marines bad, and it never did. Only one guy got to write the Codex, and GW decided it was Guilliman. One guy got to be the hero of the Scouring. GW decided it was Guilliman. Almost every Primarch got a way that they shined. Stop being so angry for the way that was given to Guilliman.


And who is to say guilliman did the right thing, entire chapters fell to chaos bringing with them weapons armor and tech the traitor legions didn't have.

Would it not be better for all marines to fight as a single entity that way they could watch over each other and ensure that any who fall are dealt with.

Guilliman himself did say that one should not take the codex as law but rather guidelines.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Reaper45 said:


> And who is to say guilliman did the right thing, entire chapters fell to chaos bringing with them weapons armor and tech the traitor legions didn't have.
> 
> Would it not be better for all marines to fight as a single entity that way they could watch over each other and ensure that any who fall are dealt with.


That's entirely the point. It's 'only' a chapter which turns. Imagine the havoc if a full legion turned. The entire point of the Codex was to prevent the centralization of power. As a vast empire on the defensive where communications are unreliable a decentralized structure is far superior. With the chapters spread across the Imperium there's always one around to respond to emerging threats. 

As regards the Codex i think there's a lot of confusion and underestimation. First of all to be a 'Codex Chapter' means, as Veteren Sergeant has pointed out, to be organized along Codex lines. Ie; 10 companies, '1000' battle brothers etc. The vast majority of Chapters are Codex Chapters. 

The White Scars, Raven Guard, Dark Angels and Blood Angels are Codex Chapters. They have their organizational quirks and favoured doctrines but by and large organize themselves via the Codex. Being a Codex Chapter doesn't meant you're tactically limited or rigid, rather it means you organize along the Codex lines. 

On the tactical and strategic side the codex is still a fantastic resource. It has the accumulated knowledge of the Imperium's best military thinkers for 10,000 years. Furthermore it's a living document; new elements are added to it. It's not a restriction, it's a boon.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Rems said:


> That's entirely the point. It's 'only' a chapter which turns. Imagine the havoc if a full legion turned. The entire point of the Codex was to prevent the centralization of power. As a vast empire on the defensive where communications are unreliable a decentralized structure is far superior. With the chapters spread across the Imperium there's always one around to respond to emerging threats.
> 
> As regards the Codex i think there's a lot of confusion and underestimation. First of all to be a 'Codex Chapter' means, as Veteren Sergeant has pointed out, to be organized along Codex lines. Ie; 10 companies, '1000' battle brothers etc. The vast majority of Chapters are Codex Chapters.
> 
> ...


The astartes were so effective because there were thousands. By limiting them to 1000 brothers their most effective tool is gone. There's plenty of battles that would have been won were they still in legion strength.

After all if the loyal legions didn't turn in the heresy why would they turn afterwards. Horus gave them the best deal.

and finally if each brother could watch over another the chances of heresy spreading is low.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Reaper45 said:


> The astartes were so effective because there were thousands. By limiting them to 1000 brothers their most effective tool is gone. There's plenty of battles that would have been won were they still in legion strength.


And far many more that they would have lost. Think how many fewer threats and wars they'd be able to respond to with only 9 legions in their original structure. As it is a chapter is more than enough to deal with most threats, in fact a company usually suffices. Given that all it usually takes is a single company to make a difference it makes sense to spread the chapters across the imperium so there's always a company where there needs to be. 

The legions are less suited to the current defensive posture of the Imperium than the Chapters are. They were great when the Imperium was on the offensive and wanted to concentrate force, when it needed to topple alien and human empires but the current Imperium doesn't need to do that. It doesn't want to expand, it wants to survive and defend what it has. 



> After all if the loyal legions didn't turn in the heresy why would they turn afterwards. Horus gave them the best deal.


Because Chaos corrupts. Why have any of the chapters that have fallen, fallen? What's stopping whatever turned them from turning a legion or elements of that legion?



> and finally if each brother could watch over another the chances of heresy spreading is low.


Then why did it happen in the place?


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Rems said:


> And far many more that they would have lost. Think how many fewer threats and wars they'd be able to respond to with only 9 legions in their original structure. As it is a chapter is more than enough to deal with most threats, in fact a company usually suffices. Given that all it usually takes is a single company to make a difference it makes sense to spread the chapters across the imperium so there's always a company where there needs to be.
> 
> The legions are less suited to the current defensive posture of the Imperium than the Chapters are. They were great when the Imperium was on the offensive and wanted to concentrate force, when it needed to topple alien and human empires but the current Imperium doesn't need to do that. It doesn't want to expand, it wants to survive and defend what it has.
> 
> ...


Why did the word bearers fall? The emperor seemed to know that lorgar was weak else he wouldn't have sent the custodians to watch over him. Would he have fallen if say Russ and Horus were standing over his shoulder? 

Would the heresy have happened if the emperor didn't ban psychic powers? Horus wouldn't have had no reason not to trust magnus if using his powers wasn't banned.

You see everything that happened was an elaborate chess game. Legions hated each other and gave reason for them to turn.

Now if they were forced into a single entity and made to cooperate what are the chances of that happening again?

All I am saying is that it's impossible to say that guillimans way was the right way.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Even when discussing fluff on a forum it all comes down to fucking rowboat girlyman -_-


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

SO.... has anyone got any other examples of changes to the fluff or is this going to be a CA thread?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> Would he have fallen if say Russ and Horus were standing over his shoulder?


Quite possibly. He outmaneuvered the Custodes with ease it's not impossible (indeed I'd call it more likely in Russ' case) that he could've outmaneuvered a brother as well. Besides which, if Russ or Horus is watching Lorgar, they're not leading their Legions and thus the entire Great Crusade is suffering.



> Would the heresy have happened if the emperor didn't ban psychic powers? Horus wouldn't have had no reason not to trust magnus if using his powers wasn't banned.


Horus not trusting Magnus has nothing to do with the Heresy. 



> You see everything that happened was an elaborate chess game. Legions hated each other and gave reason for them to turn.


The Legions hated each other because the Gods made them. Just like the Gods have maneuvered countless Chapters to turn. Just like they could maneuver fresh Legions.



> Now if they were forced into a single entity and made to cooperate what are the chances of that happening again?


It is simply not possible to have a single entity protect an empire on a galactic scale. Divisions must be made or else the force will be unable to respond to the myriad threats that surround the Imperium.

Further, the concentration of power was exactly what made the Heresy so devastating. It's the fact that Horus takes half the Imperium's forces as his own. If he doesn't have that power then he's dealt with on Istvaan V and the Horus Heresy becomes a mere footnote, like the fate of other brotherly quarrels (possibly the missing Legions and the Night of the Wolf).


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> Quite possibly. He outmaneuvered the Custodes with ease it's not impossible (indeed I'd call it more likely in Russ' case) that he could've outmaneuvered a brother as well. Besides which, if Russ or Horus is watching Lorgar, they're not leading their Legions and thus the entire Great Crusade is suffering.
> 
> Horus not trusting Magnus has nothing to do with the Heresy.
> 
> ...


You should re read false gods. Horus does say that to magnus straight out.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> You should re read false gods. Horus does say that to magnus straight out.


Yeah but if you read _A Thousand Sons_ that doesn't happen until after Horus has given Russ the order to kill him. And according to _Outcast Dead_ that doesn't happen until right around the Dropsite Massacre.

Wonky time-line aside, Horus would've been turned even if he had trusted Magnus during his vision. Only the Gods had the power to save him then and ideologically he was still treason bound.


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

Stella Cadente said:


> Even when discussing fluff on a forum it all comes down to fucking rowboat girlyman -_-


Well, he is the single most important figure in the post-Heresy Imperium.

Humpty Dumpty fell off his wall, and only Guilliman was able to put him back together again. I mean, look at the other remaining Primarchs. Russ and Corax eventually just wander off irresponsibly, lol. Dorn went off and got himself killed on purpose. But, then again, Dorn had all kinds of issues. He was a lunatic. Murdered half of his legion intentionally in the Iron Cage because he didn't believe they were disciplined enough to accept the breakup of the Legion. Then dives headfirst into a Chaos fleet instead of waiting for reinforcements. It's no wonder the Ultramarines ended up being 2/3s of modern Chapters, lol. Aside from the White Scars, they seem to be the only loyal legion descended from "Not Crazy" stock. Would _you_ choose Imperial Fists or Blood Angels genestock if you were the AdMech? :wink:

Of course not.

But let's be serious for a second. Guilliman is more or less the father of the modern Imperium. There's a reason he figures so centrally into the fluff, whether or not fans like to irrationally hate him and the Ultramarines. Russ, Sanguinius, etc, a lot of them get bonus points for being cool. But none of them actually _did_ anything after the fall of the Emperor. And that's why the fluff history always remembers Guilliman.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Hellados said:


> SO.... has anyone got any other examples of changes to the fluff or is this going to be a CA thread?


I know RIGHT? :roll eyes: 

I like the changes to the Storm Raven. I knew it was a marketing decision to restrict them to the Grey Knights then the Blood Angels. I got one with the idea of using it as my =][= Lords Transport. I was hoping that when the new SM Codex came out they could not resist selling them to all the Chapters, and looky here i was right.

I do like how the Black Templar's finally got some good PR representation and have softened their demeanor on friendly Psykers.

And Speaking of a softening, I think the White Scars have opened the door to fielding Dreadnoughts. What seemed to be a total no go seems to now be a REALLLLY RARE thing.

Ok sorry for interrupting the Smerf hate, flame down... Soooo much time spent on a group who was just a replacement for a dishonored Legion... /duck


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

Oooo the mongles get dreadnoughs, cool, all my GW budget is going on BFG atm so haven't got the new codex :'(

I already had a load but need more


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