# birds and the bees.....for superhumans



## Lupercal101 (Jan 26, 2009)

i was readin some fluff for salamanders, and apparently they can have wives. I was wondering wether they can.... 'multiply' or not


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

The short answer is no. The long answer is more like this:

No, because the chemical treatments Space Marines recieve render them sterile. More importantly, if you think about it, there'd be no reason to recruit if Space Marines could reproduce by means we're familiar with, rather than via progenoid implantation. They'd just keep a harem and crank out babies which would be better suited as candidates to become Space Marines. 

And there's the constant risk of Rule 34... it's better to just make it so they can't.


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

The Son of Horus said:


> No, because the chemical treatments Space Marines recieve render them sterile.


I don't think thats true...



The Son of Horus said:


> More importantly, if you think about it, there'd be no reason to recruit if Space Marines could reproduce by means we're familiar with, rather than via progenoid implantation. They'd just keep a harem and crank out babies which would be better suited as candidates to become Space Marines.


But that makes sense...


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## jasonfly (Feb 1, 2009)

good way of putting it Horus, haven't heard that before though


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## Lupercal101 (Jan 26, 2009)

but then whats the point of having wives then? seeing as they only get 15 minutes free time per day, what are they gonna do? maybe they not sterile or nothing but the baby would be related to like 10,000+ marines(all the others how had that geneseed and died), and if two people inbreeding makes a retarded baby then 10,000+ baby would die/be mutated. mother would probly die to, and that could interfere with the marines head and not make him devoted to his work. not sure


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## Siege (Jan 18, 2008)

Lupercal101 said:


> but then whats the point of having wives then?


Hahahahaahaha.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

It can be a strictly cultural thing. People marry for more than just love and reproduction-- for example, there are a lot of instances of people marrying for citizenship, or domestic partnerships being established for rights to estate. In the case of the Salamanders (I have to admit, I'd never heard they had wives before...) it probably is cultural-- just like walking amongst their people is sort of a Chapter tradition during their down-time.


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## Asmodeun (Apr 26, 2009)

i'd say that Sones of Horus has the logical side of things. Gamesworkshop probably wouldn't say otherwise.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

i didnt think marines were physically "equipped" for reproduction, i thought "it" was removed along with other parts that were no longer required?


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

I'm thinking neutering astartes would be a bad thing!!! :stop:

----------------------------------------------------------

Astartes #1 - Hey some xenos have been found in the next system.

Astartes #2 - So?

Astartes #1 - Should we do something?

Astartes #2 - But they didn't do anything to us.

Astartes #1 - True let's bake them a 'welcome to the system cake!'

Astartes #2 - Agreed the universe is too big to fight over!

-------------------------------------------------------

I think we all know the average astartes is a giant heap of testosterone.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Imperious Rex said:


> I'm thinking neutering astartes would be a bad thing!!! :stop:
> 
> Astartes #1 - Hey some xenos have been found in the next system.
> 
> ...


or maybe it goes like this 
Astartes #1 Xenos have invaded a nearby system!

Astartes #2 so?

Astartes #1 They are the ones who advised the emperor to remove our man hood!

Astartes #2 I'll get my bolter!


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

I will never forget the day when one of my first dogs came back from the vet after being neutered. It broke his spirit. Not only was he not as aggressive but he was just never the same.

As far as astartes go, there is nothing to imply that the plumbing doesn't work. In fact there is everything to imply they have a surplus of testosterone. Between their outrageous schedule and discipline, their raging testosterone shouln't be an issue. Many historical brotherhoods of monks include vows while not being "snipped."


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

GW just didn't want SM to have the relief of sex, so they'd have loads of testosterone to keep them angry due to them being consantly unsatisfied. Not to mention that love felt for your wife next to you (ideally) is far more realistic and thus powerful than that for some rotting old fart pretender-god stuck in a stasis chamber so far away you will never ever even get close to it. 
Also, if SMs could make babies, they could replace the fragile humans we know as IG! Just imagine: numbers of IG, quality (both when at peace and when at war) of SM? Everyone in the universe would simply give up in that instant. Which is also against the interests of GW.
Talk about "money makes the world go 'round"...


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## Amadeus (Mar 16, 2009)

Although the progenitor glands etc. alter a spacemarine's physiology surely his genotype would stay the same after all if they could change genotypes why do chapters go to all the effort of hunting for "special individuals" to recruit as space marines? therefore his children would have the same mitotically derived zygote DNA as if he hadn't been a space marine, if not it's not likely to combine with his wife's to produce anything useful anyway.

I did read somewhere that only Whitescars were able to father children but I haven't seen a good explanation. Although even then, as with all the fluff, it probably requires some suspension of disbelief/is suitably obscured by the vastness of the imperium and so many inconsistencies can only be expected to occur - depending on your point of view.

I have a feeling that this is one of the fluff things that is swept under the carpet. Personally I quite like those chapters that have more contact with the normal citizens and are fighting for them (e.g. Ultramarines, Salamanders) rather than simple religous zealotry. 

P.S. In case you're wondering I got into the dark angels after the original story of deathwing exterminating the genestealers and refusing to exterminus their planet - long before all this covering up fallen by any means necessary apeared in the fluff.


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## Gul Torgo (Mar 31, 2008)

Imperious Rex said:


> I will never forget the day when one of my first dogs came back from the vet after being neutered. It broke his spirit. Not only was he not as aggressive but he was just never the same.
> 
> As far as astartes go, there is nothing to imply that the plumbing doesn't work. In fact there is everything to imply they have a surplus of testosterone. Between their outrageous schedule and discipline, their raging testosterone shouln't be an issue. Many historical brotherhoods of monks include vows while not being "snipped."


I'm not sure why you are so adamant against this bit of fluff. Anyone who has heard of steroids knows that high aggression and healthy testicles can be distinct conditions

Besides, sterility is not the same thing as being a eunuch. The Emperor's Children are proof that even if the gene therapy and chemicals raging through their system have ravaged their capacity for reproduction, they can still have sex.


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## Epic Fail (Jun 23, 2008)

Well, the testes are the production centre for male testosterone, the production levels are dictated by many test receivers throughout the body. It's possible that the homone and genetic therapy the SMs go through add in extra testosterone producing glands.

Indeed fluff supports that SMs have high levels of test, but the removal of sex-drive could be by other means. It's likely that the plumbing works, but considering that SM fortress monasteries are like prisons (or gigantic navy ships) I would hope to think that there is some kind of gelding happenning - you wouldn't want a whole bunch of test-charged males locked in together for hundreds of years with a lot of built up sexual frustration - it'd be like Oz with Space Marines but no conjugal visits!


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Basically, Humans and Astartes are not of the same species, if they were, they would be able to reproduce to create fertile young. Seeing as they cannot produce offspring at all, they must be incredibly different genetically to Humans.

I'm guessing that Space Marines have a greater number of chromosomes, or at least a differing number, and that's all it takes to stop reproduction (Count the Gametes and Alleles!).

If there were Female Space Marines, I don't see a reason why they could not produce offspring (fertile or not). But Astartes and Humans? That's like asking why you can't go out and have a baby with your pet monkey.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Concrete Hero said:


> That's like asking why you can't go out and have a baby with your pet monkey.


can you do it with someone else's pet monkey?but not your own?


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> can you do it with someone else's pet monkey?but not your own?


That's perfectly acceptable


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Epic Fail said:


> Well, the testes are the production centre for male testosterone, the production levels are dictated by many test receivers throughout the body. It's possible that the homone and genetic therapy the SMs go through add in extra testosterone producing glands.
> 
> Indeed fluff supports that SMs have high levels of test, but the removal of sex-drive could be by other means. It's likely that the plumbing works, but considering that SM fortress monasteries are like prisons (or gigantic navy ships) I would hope to think that there is some kind of gelding happenning - you wouldn't want a whole bunch of test-charged males locked in together for hundreds of years with a lot of built up sexual frustration - it'd be like Oz with Space Marines but no conjugal visits!


ALWAYS ANGRY!!!! ALL THE TIME!!!! :laugh:


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Yay! yey another " Can Space marines have sex?" thread. Seriously guys, the answer is no, always has been, always will be, there are no eceptions. why keep asking this question?


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## Deneris (Jul 23, 2008)

Son of mortarion said:


> Yay! yey another " Can Space marines have sex?" thread. Seriously guys, the answer is no, always has been, always will be, there are no eceptions. why keep asking this question?


The question wasn't they could HAVE sex, but reproduce. I believe they have the "tools", but the desire could be lacking, most likely due to the combination of "psycho-conditioning" and the pharmocopia of drugs they've injested/produced over the years.

Conceivably, Marines COULD "reproduce" by cloning, but that would more than likely be frowned upon by the Magos Genetor of Mars AND the Inquisition...


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

Even if space marines could reproduce, which I find highly unlikely given the amount of psysiological changes the various implanted glands cause in the marines, all of the things which make space marines into space marines are in the implanted glands. If you took a space marine, harvested some sperm, fertilized an egg, and performed an in vitro fertilization, the best you can hope for is a healthy human child.

For that matter, if you decided to clone a space marine, the end result would be an unaugmented human for the same reasons--a space marine without the implanted glands is just a conditioned human.


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## Deneris (Jul 23, 2008)

Quite true, but if a Chapter could reliably produce clones of a desired pre-augmented marine, say a young Marneus Calgar, imagine the posibilities; simply implant the assorted marine-making organs, indoctrinate/teach, and have a reliable source of "new" marines...

I imagine this is how the Emperor's Children keep their post-heresy numbers at fighting strength...


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## Sqwerlpunk (Mar 1, 2009)

Part of the process of creating Space Marines changes the genetic structure, making their chromosomes different than they should be, and rendering both reproduction and female Space Marines impossible.


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## Lord of Rebirth (Jun 7, 2008)

Do you actually think a marine's reproductive genes would replicate a full marine? I mean they -do- implant a number of extra organs into a marine and there are parts to the marine that are not organic. Also reproduction works half and half so if the mother was not a full marine with all the extras the offspring won't be a full marine. Add both these together and I bet you'd only really get a marine halfway to being a marine and that isn't far from normal candidates.

I'd say it's just easier to recruit from the masses of Imperial citizens. Since only like 1 in 300 candidates even make it to being scouts you need A LOT of candidates. Also think of having to raise the marine children and what if a marine is emotionally effected when his son doesn't make it? There are a lot of possible problems and it is probably a fair bit easier to do it the way they do it. Also yeah GW is better off excluding sex almost entirely from the 40k universe to get rid of a lot of possible problems.


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## Epic Fail (Jun 23, 2008)

better to just vat grow perfect human bodies, skin scrapings from the emperor in my opinion, indoctrinate from birth by brainwashing and hypnotherapy, give them simulated exercises from day one, train them relentlessly real world once you are able and then start implanting stuff when you can.

That's how you make a legion!


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

On the idea of cloning.. I'm not sure that said technology is available anymore to the techpriests and whatnot.


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## Lupercal101 (Jan 26, 2009)

Inquisitor Einar said:


> On the idea of cloning.. I'm not sure that said technology is available anymore to the techpriests and whatnot.


Yes there is, but it is heavily frowned upon. The Death Korps of Krieg were allowed to use cloning because of their unusally high loyalty to the Emperor, because they lived on a dead world and their are not many people and because of their battle record. They have the technology but they are scared to use it


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## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

Concrete Hero said:


> Basically, Humans and Astartes are not of the same species, if they were, they would be able to reproduce to create fertile young. Seeing as they cannot produce offspring at all, they must be incredibly different genetically to Humans.
> 
> I'm guessing that Space Marines have a greater number of chromosomes, or at least a differing number, and that's all it takes to stop reproduction (Count the Gametes and Alleles!).
> 
> If there were Female Space Marines, I don't see a reason why they could not produce offspring (fertile or not). But Astartes and Humans? That's like asking why you can't go out and have a baby with your pet monkey.


This is correct I think.


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## thomas2 (Nov 4, 2007)

I've never heard of anything that suggests that marines DNA is changed, and until I do I'm going to say a Space Marine clone or child would be a normal human.



> Basically, Humans and Astartes are not of the same species, if they were, they would be able to reproduce to create fertile young. Seeing as they cannot produce offspring at all, they must be incredibly different genetically to Humans.


There is nothing that suggests they couldn't create children, and even if they weren't able it could be due to hormones and chemical produced by their glands rather than different genes.


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

thomas2 said:


> I've never heard of anything that suggests that marines DNA is changed, and until I do I'm going to say a Space Marine clone or child would be a normal human.


True, though (and I forgot that the extra organs are implanted) I think there has to be something different in the Astartes that is deeper than, "New Organs!". I made the mistake of thinking more about the Primarchs than the Astartes (though I still think it requires something more than a shed load of immuno-suppressants to be able to implant organs that posses not only foreign antigens, but are completely new to the body).

I'm actually very interested in this topic now, I understand how altering the DNA of an organism isn't always easy (though I believe new base sequences for DNA could easily be added to human strands to create Astartes, especially in the 41st millennium).

My point was if Space Marines _are_ genetically different, there's no way their producing young (and if they are... That thing wont be fertile). Where's Daneel anyway? I remember reading somewhere that he's versed in genetics.


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## Lord of Rebirth (Jun 7, 2008)

Marines -are- very complicated and specialized things. We need to remember a lot of odd technologies and bits go into them. We should also remember the Imperium -rarely- does things the most efficient way so why the frankfurter would they vat grow and specialist train soldiers? It makes to much sense.


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## Lupercal101 (Jan 26, 2009)

because the vat might be cursed by chaos. you never know, they might be watching now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Amadeus (Mar 16, 2009)

If you want to insert organs into people it would be far easier to engineer their MHC or HLA markers (what the immune system uses to look for targets to attack) on the organ/tissue to match those of the host body rather than alter the host body genetically to change its HLAs and so prevent rejection.

With the present level of technology we can't do this but we have successfully grown a trachea (windpipe) from a patient's own DNA and that has been implanted in a patient - so far successfully (at least I haven't heard any reports to the contary).

Some paitents have had organs transplanted into them with very similar "tissue types" (=simliar collections of MHC or HLA markers) and after a while have managed to completely cease immunosurpression without rejection.

Of course several patients with disimilar tissue types have had severe "graft versus host" disease where one immunesystem attacks another - which generally results in the destruction of the transplanted organ.

All the best,
Amadeus


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

This is a very interesting discussion.
I don't think the Marines would have their winky-dinks removed, because there's no real reason to, it would just make urination hard.
Ultimately it is their devotion to the rules of being a Marine that makes them not do things they shouldn't, like visit their families (excluding Salamanders) or build emotional connections with non-Marines.

I'm pretty sure the hormone therapy and implants and surgery and stuff would pretty much stop any chance of them getting, shall we say, physically aroused, and they'd most certainly be sterile.
But, and this is a very interesting thing to consider:

The hormone that stimulates the production of Retina (things that detect light) is the same hormone that stops the winky-dink from being erect.
The natural state of a man's winky-dink (lawl :3) is erect, but the hormone reduces blood flow, and therefore makes it flacid.

So, considering that, don't you think that marines would have MORE of that hormone, to improve their eyesight?
In which case, I don't think they'd be physically capable of HAVING sex, short of using Viagra, which even then might not work.


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## Wolfgang_Molder (Mar 3, 2008)

HOLD IT!!!!! all this talk of vats and genetic engineering is giving me a headache.....you are forgetting ONE major problem here. The imperium DO NOT use new technology and they DO NOT experiment. In the 41st milenium humans are scared of technology to the point where some (the adeptus mechanicus) worship it as a god. There was a time in the imperium known as "the dark age of technology" this is when humans first left terra and moved onto bigger and better things, and then due to a chain of warpstorms and the like these colonies were isolated. now, very little prgress in terms of technology has been made since then, look at the difference between chaos and SM, space marines got landspeeders...chaos didn't....why? because that is all the imperium has made in the last 10000 years. so really, the imperium doesn;t have the means to create genetic clones and the like because they don;t understand more than 2% of all the technology beyond how to make it go BOOM!


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

XD
He's right you know, they wouldn't experiment with that stuff.
They only still do the implants because they know it works, they don't fully understand HOW though.


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## Lord Lucius (Sep 18, 2008)

lets pleas everyone, they can have sex but cant reproduce

edit; but yes ,they dont (usually)experiment


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## Aktar09 (Apr 4, 2009)

The Son of Horus said:


> The short answer is no. The long answer is more like this:
> 
> No, because the chemical treatments Space Marines recieve render them sterile. More importantly, if you think about it, there'd be no reason to recruit if Space Marines could reproduce by means we're familiar with, rather than via progenoid implantation. They'd just keep a harem and crank out babies which would be better suited as candidates to become Space Marines.
> 
> And there's the constant risk of Rule 34... it's better to just make it so they can't.


you'll probably think im stupid for this, but what is rule 34?


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Aktar09 said:


> you'll probably think im stupid for this, but what is rule 34?


Well, when a man loves something there is yet to be porn of, he goes to 4chan, and asks for rule 34 of, say, tomato sauce and barbecue sauce 'gettan' it awn', and the good people of /b/ find some (or make some).

Rule 34: If it exists, there is porn of it.


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## Wolfgang_Molder (Mar 3, 2008)

tomato sauce and barbecue sauce??? that's kinda sad if you have to resort to THAT


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

IT was an example, ok?
It's more often Pokemon stuff, or two anime characters, or seven anime characters.


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