# Sniping...



## Sarigar (Dec 28, 2006)

Trying to see if this comes up in the various game circles: getting shots lined up so you can only see an important model. An example would be your lascannon toting model and purposefully blocking LOS so that model can only see your opponent's las cannon toting model.

Personally, I don't see this kind of game style, but am well aware of how to successfully pull it off. To me, it seems a bit of a sportsmanship issue, but I'm curious to see what you folks (many whom are GT regulars) feel about it.


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

It's quite obviously a sportsmanship issue. In the lore, you'd never see a SPace Marine moving so that an entire traitor squad minus one is obscured by trees and a nearby tank. You don't have Dreadnoughts turning 180* to fire so that the shot can only hit a power fist model. You certainly don't have a Land Raider Crusader opening up with a friendly Rhion in front of it so that the clustered special weapons of a Conscript platoon are the only things that can be hit.

More importantly, these things do not happen because they do not make sense. The only reason this mockery of the game can exist at all is that to make specific rules against it would require a ruleset to make the entirety of second edition look like the BFM 'rulebook'.

Since this activity requires that one ignore every single aspect of the game but the end score, and because it is both obvious and impossible to do accidentally, it is the very limit of cheesegamery. It's worse than even deliberate modifications of vehicles for gaming advantage, since it doesn't even require additional time investment to do.

If I were to find my opponent using this tactic, I would briefly (by my standards) explain precisely why this rule indicates the living incarnation of cheesegaming, and, should they continue, end the game and never play the person again. That sort of abominable gamership is among the worst sort that an opponent can unleash short of physically damaging your models, and I would rather cease all involvement with the hobby than resort to this appaling 'tactic' myself.

And now to wait for one of the aforementioned to claim I'm taking the game too seriously, that anything allowed by the rules system is sportsmanlike because otherwise GW would prevent it, and that I'm obviously a whiny crybaby who loses to underpointed newbies.


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## Fallen Angel (Dec 22, 2006)

To me its a balance for the fact that the lascannon guy is always the last to die, the power fist toting sergeant can hide behind nine of his mates whilst still swinging his fist at a warboss and not be hit back directly, etc.

So yes i do and i fully expect my opponent to do it all the time as well. Guess im a cheesegaming, totally unsporting, rules lawyering scum of the earth then.


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

On the whole with this sort of thing I tend to 'do unto others as they do unto me'

But no its a stinky way to play and very un-sportsman like and I try to avoid playing people who do this sort of thing just to win.

Losing is good for you as a person and a gamer, it forces you to change, improve your army and tactics.


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

Viscount Vash said:


> On the whole with this sort of thing I tend to 'do unto others as they do unto me'
> 
> But no its a stinky way to play and very un-sportsman like and I try to avoid playing people who do this sort of thing just to win.
> 
> Losing is good for you as a person and a gamer, it forces you to change, improve your army and tactics.


Indeed, and using sniping is one such tactic. Its perfectly legitimate, and well supported in the rules. 
If you want to moan about realism, then I assume you'll roll a dice for casualties in each squad and those with the lowest scores take the wounds and are killed. After all, thats a good way to randomise shooting casualties and make it more realisitic. Whats that? You want to keep the guy with the big hand and take a bolter caddy off instead? Cheese!!

If you want to avoid sniping, don't move all of your weapons to the front and edges of your squads. You may want to get better shots for next turn or move your fist guy to get in B2B, but be aware you may pay the price.

Ever use torrent of fire? Torrent of blows? Is it realistic to force you to take one save on a specified model? No, but neither are flying space elves. Ever pulled casualties out of range of the powerfist/IC so it can't strike at a different I level? Same applies. 
These are tournament level tactics and are quite legitimately used in that level of game. If you want a fluff-fest then go for it. But if two like-minded gamers are playing a league or tournament type game, or if you use any of these sort of things above, then don't be surprised if sniping happens.

Oh and before someone mentions the use of 2 rhinos to allow a lascannon to snipe a model, if someone wants to do that, and lose both rhinos and then lose the lascannon as I snipe it back, be my guest. Its a bad tactic from a strategic sense, never mind anything else.


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## Elric of Melnibone (Feb 9, 2007)

Fallen Angel said:


> T
> 
> So yes i do and i fully expect my opponent to do it all the time as well. Guess im a cheesegaming, totally unsporting, rules lawyering scum of the earth then.


Agreed 

:lol: :lol:


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## stompzilla (Mar 8, 2007)

Me too!


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Never bothered with it myself. Seems to be too much hassle in my mind.


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## LongBeard (Dec 22, 2006)

> So yes i do and i fully expect my opponent to do it all the time as well. Guess im a cheesegaming, totally unsporting, rules lawyering scum of the earth then.


I'd say that go's for the whole of FLAME ON! then! :lol: 
To me It's perfectly fine to go sniping, when you set up that annihilator to go for the side armour of another vehicle Instead of the front Is that not a type of snipe and unsporting? I don't think so. I suppose It all comes down to what level of gaming your used. I generally play on a weekly basis against the flame on lot with the games tending to be on a competetive/friendly basis (90%) where all the tricks come out of the bag so these type of tactics become second nature.



> These are tournament level tactics and are quite legitimately used in that level of game. If you want a fluff-fest then go for it. But if two like-minded gamers are playing a league or tournament type game, or if you use any of these sort of things above, then don't be surprised if sniping happens.


Couldn't have said It better myself!


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

Vehicles and the like are fair game, since it's not a direct contravention of 40K fluff and 40K physics. There's probably a situation in which you can advance yourself at the cost of the game by shenanigans, but I've yet to see it.

As for the kills, the inherent concept behind it in third edition was that, not only is combat so chaotic as to render it impossible to shoot one individual without shooting every individual (there's your Torrent of Fire), but the soldiers in it not stupid, and intelligent enough to pick up the Flamer or Storm Bolter or Plasmagun that the horribly wounded man in front of them just dropped.

On the other hand, we have this super duper tactic, where the bullets magically zero in on a single person in a squad that is running, ducking, jumping and taking cover, just because you're stupid enough to shoot with your own tank in the way.

I'm not saying I wouldn't expect it in a tournament game, because I'm too grizzled to expect anything from a tournament game. My stopping play was for more casual games, which nobody needs to win that bad. I still wouldn't do it in a tournament.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

I would be lieing if I said I hadn't done it but I do try not too


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

I consider myself a pretty sporting person, but don't see much wrong with sniping. As much goes on the other player for not protecting his model. 

I've only really seen this happen with sergeants that are leading from the front. You'll get them just slightly off a corner and can position to get just him, that would be a realistic battle tactic as the take off the head and the body dies tactic. 

I haven't seen it, but I don't see it unsporting to get the Lascannon guy either. You would want to find a way to take out the biggest threat and if you can zero in on the guy, then you would realistically.

It's somewhat the same concept of fire saturation (which is the one 4th ed rule I just never see used) where if you wound enough to cover the squad you can pick out the model to take the first armor save. Isn't that sort of the same analogy?


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## Antioch (Dec 27, 2006)

If you can pull off the sheer amount of micromanagement, more power to you. I see it as whoring the rules, and therefore don't use it. That and it's just not my style. If I have to do something like that to win, my list isn't built right.


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

I don't think it takes that much micromanagement in the way I'm describing it. I'm talking about if theres a piece of terrain and you can move enough to clip just one or two models, that really doesn't take much to do. I'm also not saying its right or wrong, and I can't say I would look down on someone for doing it to me.


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## Warsmith Tharak (Jan 29, 2007)

I have lost 3 lascannons from a singel squad in a singel turn in a turnament with this tactic. Insted of crying chees I thought "hey, next time I dont set up the heavy weapons forward in the squad". I think if a person sees an oppertunety to kill of some better model, go for it.
In my mind it is the same ting as shooting at an havoc squad to kill heavy weapons instead of an all bolter troop squad. 

I dont do it myself by the way...


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

and that was my note above, that sniping is the responsibility of the sniped player as well as the sniping player. You need to take care of your important models in a squad, and you don't have to worry about sniping. Why aren't your lascannons in the middle or back of the squad?


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## Warsmith Tharak (Jan 29, 2007)

First turnament... I thought it look't cooler with the guns up front. This happend in 2003 and my tactics and deployment has improved some since then. I think you learn more from having a good player slap you around with good tactics, than from a bad player you crush. I manage a draw becuse ha charge my dread with his dread in the last turn couse we tought it would look great. If he had killed mine he would have scored a minor victory, if I had killed his(witch I did) it become a draw and if nether had died he would have won. It goes to show that even if you tries to win you can still do (perhaps stupid) things that makes for a great battle.


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

> I have lost 3 lascannons from a singel squad in a singel turn in a turnament with this tactic. Insted of crying chees I thought "hey, next time I dont set up the heavy weapons forward in the squad". I think if a person sees an oppertunety to kill of some better model, go for it.


Well said that man. To be honest, it doesn't happen very often (maybe its because everyone I play knows not to put their useful model on the edge/front of a unit) but when it does, you learn from it. 
Its also a good tactic vs. those player who moveeverything 6" and somehow move both plasma guns from the back to the front of the unit. After they get range sniped a couple of times, they don't tend to do it again.

It often happens unintentionally, I once played a GK player who ended up with each Justicar in 3 squads inadvertently sniped because my Shrouding rolls meant that they were the only models that could be seen.

A similar but different tactic is the IC snipe. As most players use the IC rules to protect them from fire, manouvreing so that the IC is the only or closest target and then shooting it can often surprise less experienced players who think that its safe. I know after it kept happening to me I thought long and hard about where I put mine and (more importantly) it made me a better player.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

I agree with everyone  

If i'm playing an experienced player who likes to play competatively, i'll snipe a few models if they give me the oppertunity. If i'm playing someone out for fun games or is inexperienced with the rules i won't do stuff like that and will even do stuff like leave guys in B2B so his fist can still attack etc.... 

Now what Is a powergaming abuse of the rules would be to set up in the unassaultable formation. If someone did try that then i would not be best pleased :evil:


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## Sarigar (Dec 28, 2006)

Thanks for all the replies. 

I've found a super easy, mobile way of sniping and wondered if I should pull this trick out or not. Locally, I don't really see it, but I do see lots of min/max style lists. I just feel a little dirty about trying it out. 

I was looking at ways to vary my Eldar and found a Wraithlord (or Avatar) plus Maugan Ra or an Autarch on a Jetbike with a Reaper Launcher right behind peeping out just enough to draw some, ahem, interesting LOS to specific models, and still receive IC protection so they can't even be shot back at.

Jigplums-I agree about the unassaultable formation. I'd draw the line of absurdity at that point.


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

There's a simple test for this sort of thing. If your opponent would do it, you can do it. It doesn't mean you have to, though.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

Ive found a way around it though. Just reach over the table and grab they guy by the scruff of the neck, then take your other hand and
...................................................................................................
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.................................................... CENSORED MATERIAL ......................
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...................................................................................................


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

My point of view isn't far from Fallen Angel.

I do think it is a sportsmanship thing, same as taking a ton of HB/AC speeders or other such gimmickry. It's not something I do, in part because it's too much trouble, and in part because I don;t want to hear people cry about it.

That said, however, it makes exactly as much sense as the lascannon and plasma gunner being the last two guys to die, why the powerfist sarge can hide behind his subordinates and still manage to swing while the captain attached the squad gets a death sentance for using the same kind of weapon. Why a character cannot attack the guy in front of him because he's from a different squad than the guy he just killed beside him (the dreaded twin powerfist pincer), why you can;t send two guys around the side of the building to cover the other three as they creep across the courtyard, etc.

None of that makes any sense, but people gladly play by it.

It's a game. There are rules. Use them or lose. 
Whether or not that's a good or bad thing is a personal thing. some people don;t mind playing with a handicap if it makes things more fun.


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## Elric of Melnibone (Feb 9, 2007)

Sarigar said:


> I just feel a little dirty about trying it out.


Sounds like sex....but you get to like it after the first couple of times !!!

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## stompzilla (Mar 8, 2007)

:lol: Larf! :lol: 

So true.....


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## stompzilla (Mar 8, 2007)

uberschveinen said:


> There's a simple test for this sort of thing. If your opponent would do it, you can do it. It doesn't mean you have to, though.


To qoute someone i know:

"To the moral high ground batman!"


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

uberschveinen said:


> There's a simple test for this sort of thing. If your opponent would do it, you can do it. It doesn't mean you have to, though.


Seems to be a rule of thumb (not in the Boondock sense of the word) with most things these days. I could add some political referances here but I think you all know what I mean.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> Now what Is a powergaming abuse of the rules would be to set up in the unassaultable formation. If someone did try that then i would not be best pleased


Call me dense if you will but what exactly is the unassaultable formation???


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Yea do tell I have never come across that sort of term before,

*gets notepad out*


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

read on my friends... 

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64664


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Thank you very much, that clears it up. Personally if anybody used that tatic on me I would just shake my head and then probably Boondock them. Either that or if I was in a very very nice mood, pack up and walk away and refuse to ever play them again. But that would only been in the very rareist of situations. I would prefer to just Boondock them. :twisted:


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## Lord Alkmie (Jan 10, 2007)

Unassaultble? Have thought about the possibility, but never found an air-tight case.
Is it possible?

Don't want to use it mostly interested in finding out if GW made a "buh buh".

As of sniping I think it rocks, be stupid enough to stand in a formation where only one model could be spotted and you pay for it.

But goes to say that I would never abuse it, i.e. running rhinos around targets so that only one model could be seen. Don't see the point either or any effectiveness.

Sarigar wrote:
"I was looking at ways to vary my Eldar and found a Wraithlord (or Avatar) plus Maugan Ra or an Autarch on a Jetbike with a Reaper Launcher right behind peeping out just enough to draw some, ahem, interesting LOS to specific models, and still receive IC protection so they can't even be shot back at."

OK, this is Math-hammer, with out the math 
Don’t see this working too good, the jet bike might; as you could use the extra move to get into an "invisible" position. But then again you could do that any way.

Most of the times I would say; use common sense and if that fails "do up on others what you don't want done to yourself" :twisted:


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## Sarigar (Dec 28, 2006)

Not a big fan of math-hammer. It always blows up in my face at the most crucial part of the game. ' But I should have rolled 3 sixes out of 20 dice!!! as I groan in frustration'

The monstrous creature can also be positioned to help line up the shot to specific models. I've seen it done with cover and Rhinos. Maugan Ra and a Wraithlord should make it work even easier. It's not a game winning tactic, but I tend to play against a lot of 5 man squads (chaos or marine). Lose their lascannon (typical heavy weapon) or Icon Bearer and I'm curious to see how they fare.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Ok, I just read most of that thread about the "unassaultable formation". First off, that is a load of rules lawyering bullshit. Secondly, if ANYONE tried such bullshit with me I would knock their fuckin teeth out and NEVER play against them again, nor would anyone in my local gaming groups. RAW is all fine and dandy but extreme shit like this is crap simply because every one of us damn well knows that the rules are not intended to be used like that. 

Granted, all it requires is for you to shoot the crap out of them but regardless, this is the single most ridiculous bit of rules lawyering I have ever seen and as I said before, if someone used it on me they had best look to their personal safety as it WILL become an issue in short order. :evil:


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

The Wraithlord said:


> Ok, I just read most of that thread about the "unassaultable formation". First off, that is a load of rules lawyering bullshit. Secondly, if ANYONE tried such bullshit with me I would knock their fuckin teeth out and NEVER play against them again, nor would anyone in my local gaming groups. RAW is all fine and dandy but extreme shit like this is crap simply because every one of us damn well knows that the rules are not intended to be used like that.
> 
> Granted, all it requires is for you to shoot the crap out of them but regardless, this is the single most ridiculous bit of rules lawyering I have ever seen and as I said before, if someone used it on me they had best look to their personal safety as it WILL become an issue in short order. :evil:


You need to open up more... tell us how you really feel 8)


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Nothing but total honesty here brother 

I look to have fun when I play 40K and someone pulling this on me would ruin my entire night. Which would, as may be fairly obvious, piss me off in a big way.

And yes, I have anger issues. When I do get pissed off, I tend to go into a serious rage for a bit, not just get mildly miffed or anything, I mean pissed off enough to see red for awhile. Fortunately, I do manage to control it so that I don't take it out on others (mainly because I know I have said issues). That being said, it usually does take a fair bit to piss me off and I am by no means a stressful person but shit like that is guaranteed to push my buttons in a very quick manner. Some things just do that and someone ruining my fun like that is a sure way to do it :wink:


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

I would react the same way as Wraithlord, hence the Boondocking of said wanker.

Theres RAW and then theres that, and that is unforgivable.


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## Kross (Mar 19, 2007)

I think that I would be done with the game if someone tried to pull this on me. I really think that GW needs to address some things instead of using cop outs like RAW.


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## LongBeard (Dec 22, 2006)

To be honest I've only ever seen this crop up at the GT this year with the rules guys actually allowing the ruling! :shock: The guy who pulled It off got a fair rollicking across a few forums from what I've seen. 
I think If you read the rules It's slightly hazy but fairly obvious the rule wasn't Intended for said assault blocking.


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## TheEmperor'sChampion (Jan 24, 2007)

to be honest i think sniping is dumb, as is the unassaultble formation. i know ive sniped a model before, but it was completely accidental. its a loop hole, just like the unassaultble formation. so if you complain about the unassaultble formation you should be complaining about sniping. you cant have your cake and eat it too. you abuse a loop hole, they can abuse a loop hole, thats fair.


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

They are not the same though. Sniping is as much carelessness on the sniped opponent and leaving important models out in the open. Put your heavy weapons in the back where they are supposed to be, keep your sergeant in the middle until it's time to assault. Take care of your models and you won't worry about sniping. I have been sniped, and it has always been my fault. I can't tell you if I've sniped someone, I'm sure I have, but my opponent has never mentioned it if I did... most likely because he was careless as well.


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

TheEmperor'sChampion said:


> to be honest i think sniping is dumb, as is the unassaultble formation. i know ive sniped a model before, but it was completely accidental. its a loop hole, just like the unassaultble formation. so if you complain about the unassaultble formation you should be complaining about sniping. you cant have your cake and eat it too. you abuse a loop hole, they can abuse a loop hole, thats fair.


Er, no. The unassaultable formation is extremely dubious rules-wise, I personally think its not supported properly by the rules at all as the "not within 1" unless assaulting" only applies to the movement phase.

Regardless, sniping is not a loophole, its perfecly supported in the rules and is only an issue if you don't know how to counter it as blkdymnd mentioned. In fact the range diagrams in the shooting section essentially shows you how it can be done. Its like using IC rules and torrent of fire or blows to your advantage. Unrealistic maybe, but valid tactics nonetheless.

I inadvertently got my Justicar sniped last night. He didn't play for it, the range was just enough to snipe the front model. It was my own fault, I lost my only power weapon GK guy in the squad while facing Deathwing and paid the price in the ensuing combat. No complaints, I should have positioned my unit better.


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## MarzM (Jan 26, 2007)

anathema said:


> Er, no. The unassaultable formation is extremely dubious rules-wise, I personally think its not supported properly by the rules at all as the "not within 1" unless assaulting" only applies to the movement phase.


Sorry to disagree anathema. But i'd check page 37 of the 40k rule book, last paragragh. The rules for the assault phase is the same as the movement phase! 

It's a bollocks rule. Yes, using that most fucking crap RAW bollocks, he is 100% correct. The rule states that it's one inch and a GW base is *0.4* of an inch smaller! 

My problem would be with the ref that didn't tell him to bugger off! It's correct but totally against the sportsmanship of the hobby. This is another thing that GW shouldn't have changed with the rules for a UKGT. There should be minus points for being a prick!


MarzM :mrgreen:


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Hell yeah. If one of my opponents at the Conflict tried that shit with me you can guarantee that he would be scoring 0 for sportsmanship and quite possibly be picking his own teeth off the ground afterwards.


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## stompzilla (Mar 8, 2007)

O.........K..........


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## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

> Sorry to disagree anathema. But i'd check page 37 of the 40k rule book, last paragragh. The rules for the assault phase is the same as the movement phase!


Hmm, will have to check that out.


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## Skcuzzlebumm (Dec 21, 2006)

MarzM said:


> My problem would be with the ref that didn't tell him to bugger off! It's correct but totally against the sportsmanship of the hobby. This is another thing that GW shouldn't have changed with the rules for a UKGT. There should be minus points for being a prick!
> MarzM :mrgreen:


Well potentially that will be the case next year, either a house rule (but hose need to be approved) or just a simple auto yellow for pulling that shit.


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