# How was Fulgrim Possessed? Was he that weak willed?



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Fulgrim was in the blade's influence, the greater daemon of slaanesh's influenced for a great while. Eventually in a weakened emotional state after killing Ferrus (from the blades influenced actions), he agrees to the whispers from the blade for it to take the pain away. However it then possesses his body and pushes his soul to a corner, so fulgrim can witness everything his body is doing but do nothing about it.

How was Fulgrim, a primarch, unable to wrest control of his body back? Normal mortals are able to battle daemons with will alone, certain marines even purposefully get possessed and then are exorcised.

How was Fulgrim not able to will his body back and banish the daemon? He was a primarch for goodness sake. 

Additionally, Lorgar detects and confirms Fulgrim is possessed in front of all his brothers, even at one point the Daemon tells Horus he is possessing Fulgrim. Why didnt Lorgar or Magnus do anything about this?

Lorgar obviously demonstrated warp powers which repulsed magnus at the meeting and straight up dominated Horus in front of everyone. Why didn't they exorcise Fulgrim?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Lux said:


> How was Fulgrim, a primarch, unable to wrest control of his body back? Normal mortals are able to battle daemons with will alone, certain marines even purposefully get possessed and then are exorcised.
> 
> How was Fulgrim not able to will his body back and banish the daemon? He was a primarch for goodness sake.


Normal people are able to do so with the lesser orders of daemons. Something tells me that Chaos wouldn't put an ordinary daemon in Fulgrim's path. 



> Additionally, Lorgar detects and confirms Fulgrim is possessed in front of all his brothers, even at one point the Daemon tells Horus he is possessing Fulgrim. Why didnt Lorgar or Magnus do anything about this?


We're about to find out. I suspect it's due to Lorgar not wanting their coalition to fall apart at such a crucial stage.

Cheers,
P.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lux said:


> How was Fulgrim, a primarch, unable to wrest control of his body back? Normal mortals are able to battle daemons with will alone, certain marines even purposefully get possessed and then are exorcised.
> 
> How was Fulgrim not able to will his body back and banish the daemon? He was a primarch for goodness sake.


As _P_ said, I can't see this simply being just _another_ lesser daemon. The fact that he corrupted and eventually possessed Fulgrim's body proves not Fulgrim's weakness but the daemon's strength and power. This was a daemon that despite being imprisoned within a mortal weapon was able to corrupt and bend an entire xenos species to it's will. Perhaps even going to the extent of orchestrating the Laer's biological enhancements to sow doubt in Fulgrim's philosophy of human perfection. Also take into account that on Isstvan V Fulgrim _willingly_ allowed the daemon into a position of dominance, it didn't become dominant by itself (which shows an element of a Primarch's resistance).



Lux said:


> Additionally, Lorgar detects and confirms Fulgrim is possessed in front of all his brothers, even at one point the Daemon tells Horus he is possessing Fulgrim. Why didnt Lorgar or Magnus do anything about this?


They needed the Emperor's Children. That is why Horus didn't announce it after the daemon announced himself to Horus on Isstvan V. The III Legion were vital to the war effort, revealing that their Primarch had been killed/possessed may have removed the Legion from Horus' influence and command. Unity under the Warmaster's rule was essential.



Lux said:


> Lorgar obviously demonstrated warp powers which repulsed magnus at the meeting and straight up dominated Horus in front of everyone. Why didn't they exorcise Fulgrim?


In the first three chapters of _Aurelian_ it is suggested that Lorgar believes Fulgrim's soul to be completely absent:



_...Lorgar exhaled slowly. ‘So he is dead, then. Another sentience rides within his body. This husk is all that remains of Fulgrim?’_


_‘Where is the harmony in this joining? A living soul annihilated for its mortal shell to house a greedy, unborn wretch? I have walked in the warp, Horus. I have stood where gods and mortals meet. This is weakness and corruption – a perversion of what the gods wish for us. They want allies and followers, not soulless husks ridden by daemons.’_


_...Fulgrim is dead.
‘So it seems.’ Lorgar stopped writing long enough to look up. ‘How long have you known?’
Magnus moved to the wall, reaching out as if his ethereal fingers could touch the paintings of Colchis hanging there.
‘I knew it as soon as I reached into Horus’s war room. He withdrew his fingers, curling them back with slow care. Like you, I am no stranger to the entities within the warp. One of them animates his body now.’_

Despite the Daemon-Fulgrim informing Horus on Isstvan V that Fulgrim's soul was still present. Regardless, assuming Fulgrim's soul is still present in some capacity (based on the daemon's own words in _Fulgrim_) its not a simple matter of just banishing the daemon. The daemon is entirely in control, the body is his, what remains of Fulgrim is his. Lorgar could have killed the Daemon-Fulgrim but it wouldn't have automatically released Fulgrim's soul and given him his body back. It would have just likely removed everything; his body, and both the daemon and Fulgrim's soul. Which would have again given us the problem of the Emperor's Childrens continued allegience. Not only that but it would have revealed that a Primarch had fallen to a daemon, which I don't imagine would have been good for morale or furthered Lorgar's cause of the Primordial Truth ("the holy unity of humanity and Chaos").


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Its sad to see that my favorite primarch is more or less confirmed dead as a person, not as a entity. :/ But as you said, hope is not over for him to regain his body. Im certain he simply just dont want to be back in controll. Daemons tend to lie a lot, whose to say he spoke much truth.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Have you read warhammer 50k? or 60k? The fanfics? They explore a bit on Fulgrims state of being post fall of the imperium.

I believe Fulgrim just actively chooses not to be back in control, as he has nothing to go back to. I also believe that as his body ascended and became warp based, he can consciously choose the shape of it, and if he so chose to retake control of his being he could shape its form back to his primarch form.

That or his soul is currently trapped in the painting upon his daemon world, or the painting is a mirror that reflects Fulgrim trapped within in his current daemon controlled form.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

CotE,

I wonder if the Daemon lied to Horus purposefully, knowing that so long as there was a chance to save his brother, the Warmaster wouldn't destroy his physical body.

Cheers,
P.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

It makes me wonder, if Fulgrim truly was killed, as in his soul was not shoved to a corner of his mind, but rather was entirely eliminated. Where did it go?

Same with Ferrus when he died, and a rift in real space opened with claws reaching out of it attempting to drag Fulgrim into it, where did Ferrus's soul go?

No answers in the fluff, but makes me wonder.


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## Black Steel Feathers (Aug 17, 2011)

I really, really like Fulgrim- he's my favourite Primarch- and the end of the novel Fulgrim practically had me blubbing. I still hold on hope that there's something that someone can do for him, at the very least help his poor soul find peace. He really didn'g deserve all that... *sniffles*


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Lux said:


> It makes me wonder, if Fulgrim truly was killed, as in his soul was not shoved to a corner of his mind, but rather was entirely eliminated. Where did it go?
> 
> Same with Ferrus when he died, and a rift in real space opened with claws reaching out of it attempting to drag Fulgrim into it, where did Ferrus's soul go?
> 
> No answers in the fluff, but makes me wonder.


His soul was put into the painting that the demon was inhabiting Dorian Grey Style.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I was pretty sure the daemon was inhabiting the Laer blade... not the painting.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> I was pretty sure the daemon was inhabiting the Laer blade... not the painting.


Yeah sorry forgot about the blade, I remember it mentioning his soul being trapped in the painting.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

The thing about the Primarchs is that while they are Warp-infused beings, they were only like 200 years old or so at the time. They were created with great power over the materium, and basically figured nothing could possibly stand against them. Even a greater daemon of Slaanesh was many thousands of years old at that point. Here are a few points to consider:

A) The Emperor kept them in the dark about Chaos, with only Magnus knowing about them and even then he believed a lie.

B) They aren't nearly as powerful as they think they are.

C) The Primarchs never really had to deal with the kinds of emotions that Fulgrim did. He was essentially a child still, not having lived long enough to experience what the daemon put him through, and thus had no defense against it. Imagine murdering one of the people you loved most in the world accidentally, and then someone offers to take that pain away and never have you feel it again. You'd be so traumatized and screwed up at that moment that you'd probably do anything just to stop feeling such terrible pain.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

SoulGazer said:


> The thing about the Primarchs is that while they are Warp-infused beings, they were only like 200 years old or so at the time.


What does their age have to do with anything? They went from being infants to 8 feet tall adults in like three years.



SoulGazer said:


> They were created with great power over the materium


Says who? So far only Magnus and Lorgar have displayed a high level of psychic power.



SoulGazer said:


> and basically figured nothing could possibly stand against them.


Nothing mortal could other than each other.



SoulGazer said:


> Even a greater daemon of Slaanesh was many thousands of years old at that point. Here are a few points to consider:


Daemons don't really have ages.



SoulGazer said:


> C) The Primarchs never really had to deal with the kinds of emotions that Fulgrim did. He was essentially a child still, not having lived long enough to experience what the daemon put him through and thus had no defense against it. Imagine murdering one of the people you loved most in the world accidentally, and then someone offers to take that pain away and never have you feel it again. You'd be so traumatized and screwed up at that moment that you'd probably do anything just to stop feeling such terrible pain.


The daemon invaded Fulgrim's mind/soul only when he lowered his defenses and after the daemon spent like forever with him, learning every secret and thought Fulgrim ever possessed.

As for why Fulgrim could not regain control, I suppose no one knows and perhaps adb's new novel will shed some light on that.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> What does their age have to do with anything? They went from being infants to 8 feet tall adults in like three years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes my main curiosity, is why Fulgrim could not regain control...when in other fluff normal humans, space marines, inquisitors have fought off demonic possession. It just puzzles me why a Primarch wasn't able to do it, unless...he actively choose not to regain control, or he just didn't want to live anymore.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I'm pretty sure in one of the novels/fluff, it's mentioned that the daemon enjoys seeing Fulgrim trying to regain control and failing. So I don't think he just wants to chill.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> As for why Fulgrim could not regain control, I suppose no one knows and perhaps adb's new novel will shed some light on that.





Lux said:


> Yes my main curiosity, is why Fulgrim could not regain control...when in other fluff normal humans, space marines, inquisitors have fought off demonic possession. It just puzzles me why a Primarch wasn't able to do it, unless...he actively choose not to regain control, or he just didn't want to live anymore.


Like I said I remember his soul being stuffed inside a picture.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lux said:


> Have you read warhammer 50k? or 60k? The fanfics? They explore a bit on Fulgrims state of being post fall of the imperium.


They may be interesting and incite debate, but remember they are just fanfics.



Lux said:


> I believe Fulgrim just actively chooses not to be back in control, as he has nothing to go back to.


Well we all know you have a famous history of believing what you want, so im not going to start a discussion on that one. Apart from to say that all sources indicate the opposite. 



Phoebus said:


> CotE,
> 
> I wonder if the Daemon lied to Horus purposefully, knowing that so long as there was a chance to save his brother, the Warmaster wouldn't destroy his physical body.
> 
> ...


Perhaps, its certainly a possibility. Though unless Fulgrim's complete obliteration was necessary in order for the daemon to obtain his dominance, I don't see why the daemon would will Fulgrim's obliteration. It seems logical that the daemon was telling the truth in regards to keeping Fulgrim's soul trapped for his own amusement.



Lux said:


> Yes my main curiosity, is why Fulgrim could not regain control...when in other fluff normal humans, space marines, inquisitors have fought off demonic possession. It just puzzles me why a Primarch wasn't able to do it, unless...he actively choose not to regain control, or he just didn't want to live anymore.


This was a very different situation. As myself and _P_ have already said, this was not just any daemon, this was a pristine... ruthless... M&S daemon (couldn't resist). But no, this was obviously a powerful daemon to have influenced the Laer species to the extent it had, and to then slowly influence a Primarch the way it did, by perverting Fulgrim's strive for perfection. It also has to be reiterated that Fulgrim _willingly_ gave in to the daemon, enabling the daemon to take complete control over what remained of Fulgrim. Why should a Primarch automatically be able to overcome such possession (by a very powerful daemon) when he had _willingly_ given into it?



locustgate said:


> Like I said I remember his soul being stuffed inside a picture.


There seems to be some confusion concerning this painting. The wording in _Fulgrim_ is as follows:



_"The daemon made its way to the front of the stage and looked up towards the great portrait that hung above the smashed wreckage of the proscenium. Even in the dying light, the portrait's magnificence was palpable.

A glorious golden frame held the canvas trapped within its embrace, and the daemon smiled as it took in the wondrous perfection of the painting. Where before the image had been a garish riot of colours with a terrible aspect that horrified those mortals who dared tolook upon it, it was now a thing of beauty.

Clad in his wondrous armour of purple and gold, Fulgrim was portrayed before the great gates of the Heliopolis, the flaming wings of a great phoenix sweeping up behind him. The firelight of the legendary bird shone upon his armour, each polished plate seeming toshimmer with the heat of the fire, his hair a cascade of gold.

The Primarch of the Emperor's Children was lovingly portrayed in perfect detail, every nuance of his grandeur and the life that made Fulgrim such a vision of beauty captured in the exquisite brushwork. The daemon knew that no finer figure of a warrior had ever existed or ever would again, and to even glimpse such a flawless example of the painter's art was to know that wonder still existed in the galaxy.

The painted Fulgrim stared down upon the ruin of the theatre and the monster that had claimed his mortal shell. The daemon smiled asit saw the horror within his eyes, a horror that had not been rendered by any skill of the painter. Perfect, exquisite agony burned in the portrait's gaze, and as the daemon sheathed the anathame and bowed to the silent stage, the dark pools of its painted eyes seemed to follow its every movement.

The daemon turned from the portrait and made its way from the theatre as the last of the footlights guttered and died, leaving the last phoenix forever shrouded in darkness."_

Some people have interpreted that as the remains of Fulgrim's soul being transfered into the portrait, whilst others maintain that it remains trapped within the furthest corners of its mind at the daemon's will.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Trapping the soul within the painting, something that seems to happen after the events in the Isstvaan system, would give us a perfect answer to both scenarios.
When Horus finds out from the Daemon what has happened to his brother, the Daemon is telling the truth and Fulgrim is sharing the body.
Later, when there is time, the Daemon travels to the EC flagship and puts the soul into the painting. This allows, later on, for both Lorgar and Magnus to see only the essence of Fulgrim's possessor within his mutated body.
This doesn't mean that there is a complete seperation between the two, however. I recall reading that the Daemon liked to feel Fulgrim's anguish at his imprisonment and killing of Ferrus, so it might be that it has some sort of private, psychic link to the soul-infused painting that allows it to savour Fulgrim's eternal anguish. That Fulgrim isn't there anymore is not important for Horus to know, from the Daemon's point-of-view; less this knowledge there is an incentive for Horus to keep the Daemon-Fulgrim around so as to attempt to save him at a later date; otherwise he might just kill this travesty and consequences be damned, his brother's death meaning more to him.

GFP


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Lux said:


> Yes my main curiosity, is why Fulgrim could not regain control...when in other fluff normal humans, space marines, inquisitors have fought off demonic possession.


Possession most commonly occurs when the daemon inflicts itself on the unwilling host, the two battle for mental supperiority and eventually one triumphs. That is not what happened to Fulgrim. Fulgrim was NOT an unwilling host at the moment the daemon took control, they did not battle and the daemon won through trickery NOT superior strength. 

Consider it like a siege. If the enemy assails from beyond the walls even the weakest castle stands a chance of repelling them. If however the king willingly gives control of his castle guard to his enemy he will have a hell of a time getting it back. 

It is not a question of strength, nor of willingness, it is simply that Fulgrim's current challenge is far more difficult than a standard possession.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Did they completely rip off the "Portrait of Dorian Grey" or what? In that book, the only way to release the soul was to destroy the painting. But then, the soul would return to the body and either be devoured by the daemon or at least have to live with all the corruption and betrayal that his body perpetrated over the millennia.

The Primarchs were extremely strong in the material world, but very inexperienced and naive to the ways of the warp and sorcery. It's ironic (or preplanned?) that the one primarch that could have saved them was attacked and driven to chaos by the emperor's attack dogs.

Oh, one question. Isn't possession supposed to be a temporary thing? The daemon generally can't stay in our world for long and either uses up the host or is eventually driven out. So, doesn't it stand to reason that the possessed Fulgrim would not last for very long in a possessed state, even though it's a primarch?


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Why should a Primarch automatically be able to overcome such possession (by a very powerful daemon) when he had _willingly_ given into it?


What does willingness have to do with anything? Chaos Marines voluntarily undergo daemonic possession all the time, and they usually have no problem kicking their possessors out. Even fanatics like the Word Bearers wouldn't undergo possession if was essentially suicide, which it would be if willing possession meant what you imply.

As you note, the daemon possessing Fulgrim was a powerful one, and has since been powered up even more by Slaanesh for delivering the Emperor's Children into his service, but Fulgrim isn't an ordinary Space Marine, he's a Primarch. He should be able to dispossess powerful daemons.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

jaysen said:


> The daemon generally can't stay in our world for long and either uses up the host or is eventually driven out. So, doesn't it stand to reason that the possessed Fulgrim would not last for very long in a possessed state, even though it's a primarch?


A Primarch's body should, of course, last longer than an ordinary Space Marine's body, though the fluff makes clear that the more powerful the daemon, the faster the body decays. That said, I see two possible solutions:

1) The daemon is known to have been elevated to Daemon Prince. The power-up may enable it to use some of its enhanced power to preserve Fulgrim's body. I'm not sure how one can use warp power to save something from corruption by the warp.

2) Not even a Primarch's body can survive indefinite possession by a daemon of such power, let alone the warp exposure implicit in the description of Daemon-Fulgrim's Pleasure Planet as "being in the deep Eye". Fulgrim's body has long been dead and gone, along with any chance to save him. The change to the six-armed monstrosity called "Fulgrim" marked the death of that body.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

randian said:


> What does willingness have to do with anything? Chaos Marines voluntarily undergo daemonic possession all the time, and they usually have no problem kicking their possessors out. Even fanatics like the Word Bearers wouldn't undergo possession if was essentially suicide, which it would be if willing possession meant what you imply.


Neither the Word Bearers nor any other chaos marine that I am aware off undergo a willing possession (as far as I am aware). Rather they create a daemon pact which gives the daemon a share of their physical body and a trip into reality in exchange for power. This means that the Chaos Marine can at any time choose to end the arrangement and remove the daemon.

Possession: unwilling and resisted.
Daemonic pact: willing but controlled.
What happened to Fulgrim: willing and uncontrolled.



jaysen said:


> Oh, one question. Isn't possession supposed to be a temporary thing? The daemon generally can't stay in our world for long and either uses up the host or is eventually driven out. So, doesn't it stand to reason that the possessed Fulgrim would not last for very long in a possessed state, even though it's a primarch?


The way possession works is that the unnatural energy eats through the physical host. Given a Primarchs increadible endurance and possible biological immortality it is quite possible that Fulgrims body could endure the possession for quite some time. Further the Daemon Primarchs have not left the warp in a very long time. This means that the daemon has effectively been living in the warp which I would imagine reduces the strain on the physical host.


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## reapercake (Sep 14, 2011)

Yea I think that in his moment of clarity he saw what he'd done and gave up thus letting the daemon take over, and if there's anything left of him he's probably turned in on himself and punishing himself therefore leaving no will to fight the daemon, and maybe he see the possession as a punishment in itself!


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

One example that may or may not shed a little bit of light on this topic is back to_ Blood Reaver_. It explains that usually the possessed body does encounter some resistance from the soul. But often takes a long time for the soul to muster enough energy to distract the Daemon. 

In Fulgrim's case, I think its a combination of both, Fulgrim knowing he is not strong enough to retake his body, but I am with Lux in the fact that Fulgrim does not wish to retake his body after his actions on Istvaan. I think that point highlighted the fact that Fulgrim lost everything he was striving, for with his idea of perfection being perversed along with his legion and the killing of his closest brother.

I think it'd be interesting if Fulgrim never fought against the daemon for possession of his body and maybe one day he could muster enough energy to resist or do something against his master.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I'm not sure, even if he were still there, that Fulgrim could free himself. The Daemon long ago trapped him with his own inferiority complex and can use this as a way to lead him by the nose, building him up and pulling him down in a neverending, never-boring eternal game.

GFP


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Well I need to a) get my hands on a book covering Fulgrim post-Issvan or b) ask ADB since he should know.  We have the scenario what I want to think, and that is that Fulgrim is alive and took back his body and became the DP. Then we have the other scenario which the evidence points at, that he is either dead, trapped within his own body with no way of escaping or trapped within a painting.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I think it proves that Fulgrim was really the first Primarch to die during the heresy imo


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## tsne16487 (Aug 5, 2011)

I dhave to agree with some of the fluff on this post and disagree with some of the other fluff, my main problem is that how the book ended was probably the weakest part of what was overall an ok book in the heresy series, certainly not the best written.

In later 40k Mythology Marneus Calgar defeated a Deamon Prince twice (M'Kar), and a young Kaldor Draigo also defeated the same deamon when he was very young and not chapter master. 

If a chapter master has the drive and will to overcome deamon princes then a Primarch would easily have the power to defeat a greater deamon even one thousands of years old.

The way I see it written is that the emperor is a match for the chaos gods, the primarachs were a match for their greater deamons, and the chapter masters are a match for their deamon princes. Theres kind of a balance to it with relevant power levels throughout.

So when he was possessed it says it knew it was the biggest mistake of his life the instant he agreed, so should have been able to remove the posession with his force of will alone. Then again as some have said he may have not wanted to regain control because of the horror realisation of what he had done to his most beloved brother, and how he had corrupted his beloved legion. All viable reasons.

However I think it was just the writer getting to the end of the novel and wanting a quick easy way to end it. I think there could have been more written maybe a whole chapter about the posession so we would know exactly why, but there wasnt and so im left feeling that it was the easy out for the author.

Although Graham McNeill wrote the Chapters Due, and I loved that whole book from start to finish.

It may have been written like that on purpose to allow for Fulgrim to regain his body for the wolftime, and redeem his legions honour at the time of the final battle. who knows?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

randian said:


> What does willingness have to do with anything? Chaos Marines voluntarily undergo daemonic possession all the time, and they usually have no problem kicking their possessors out. Even fanatics like the Word Bearers wouldn't undergo possession if was essentially suicide, which it would be if willing possession meant what you imply.
> 
> As you note, the daemon possessing Fulgrim was a powerful one, and has since been powered up even more by Slaanesh for delivering the Emperor's Children into his service, but Fulgrim isn't an ordinary Space Marine, he's a Primarch. He should be able to dispossess powerful daemons.


_MEQ_ partly covers this:


MEQinc said:


> Possession most commonly occurs when the daemon inflicts itself on the unwilling host, the two battle for mental supperiority and eventually one triumphs. That is not what happened to Fulgrim. Fulgrim was NOT an unwilling host at the moment the daemon took control, they did not battle and the daemon won through trickery NOT superior strength.
> 
> Consider it like a siege. If the enemy assails from beyond the walls even the weakest castle stands a chance of repelling them. If however the king willingly gives control of his castle guard to his enemy he will have a hell of a time getting it back.
> 
> It is not a question of strength, nor of willingness, it is simply that Fulgrim's current challenge is far more difficult than a standard possession.


The daemon was able to trick Fulgrim into getting the Primarch to willingly accept it's offer of _"oblivion."_ After killing Ferrus, Fulgrim seemed simply not to care. He _willingly_ put himself at the daemon's will, thus the daemon was able to essentially enslave what remained of Fulgrim's psyche. I think the fact that Fulgrim _willingly_ gave into the daemon is crucial here, otherwise the daemon probably would have never been able to achieve a position of dominance. Fulgrim allowed the daemon to take control and do what it willed with his soul, it subsequently imprisoned what remained of it. Just because Fulgrim was a Primarch does not automatically mean he would be able to shrug off the possession once he had _willingly_ allowed the daemon to do as it willed with his own soul. 



randian said:


> He should be able to dispossess powerful daemons.


Why?



ckcrawford said:


> but I am with Lux in the fact that Fulgrim does not wish to retake his body after his actions on Istvaan.


So Fulgrim just happily sits by and witnesses all the deprived acts that the daemon enacts in his name?

I don't understand why people are having a hard time accepting that Fulgrim was unable to overpower the daemon once he had willingly accepted it's offer.


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## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

Because I see no reason why Fulgrim, a being made of the very warp itself, from the chaos gods them selves, could not overpower a daemon possessing him that's why.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

It would make a great story line. 

A chapter turns renegade when they discover that their geneseed was originally taken from the stored Emperor's Children geneseed that was kept in stasis on Terra. Temped by chaos to turn against the Emperor, they at first fight against imperial forces, but soon learn the truth about chaos. So then, the chapter goes about righting its wrongs and performing penance to restore the chapter honor. But, some intrepid heroes of the chapter can't let the new knowledge alone. They set out on a quest to save their primarch from eternal damnation. Through much strife and sacrifice, they are able to wrest Fulgrim's soul back from its prison within the Eye of Terror, freeing it to the grace of the Emperor and destroying the husk of Fulgrims former body.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> So Fulgrim just happily sits by and witnesses all the deprived acts that the daemon enacts in his name?
> 
> I don't understand why people are having a hard time accepting that Fulgrim was unable to overpower the daemon once he had willingly accepted it's offer.


Not neccessarly I think its a combination of the two. The Exalted from _Blood Reaver_ allowed the Daemon to take control of him. Obviously not knowing the the consequences but nonetheless, resisted captivity and tried to regain control of its former body. Allowed for the ship to get destroyed with him in it. Basically saving his soul from torture.

I just don't see why Fulgrim hasn't done it. He is a primarch and he could potentially put the daemon and his former body in harms way with a good distraction. There were plenty of instances. Especially the instance he fought Roboute Guilliman.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

I would think that his soul has been permanently subjugated. Plus, who says that the soul of a primarch is any stronger than the soul of a standard mortal? Sure, his mind and body are stronger, quicker, tougher. But, the soul, especially once it has been tainted and is no longer bolstered by the emperor, is just a soul, food for the warp. Fulgrim's has most likely already been devoured.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I would imagine the difference between willingly and unwillingly giving your soul to Chaos could be shown by this example (from my experience).
An unwilling, or controlled, possession might be as if you are having a nightmare. You are terrified, running scared. But, as it goes on, you feel the unreality until, if you are clear enough of mind, you can take control and eventually guide what happens; when you are ready, you can end the dream on your terms.
A willing possession, where the Daemon is given all control from the beginning by the possessee, might be more like sleep paralysis. This is horrible. You feel awake, but you can't move; the only exception to this is when you can hear/feel a threat behind you but you can only move your head the wrong way, only turning further from the danger and never towards it. It doesn't matter if you _know_ what's going on and the more you struggle to wake up, the more horrifying it is.
So,I reckon Fulgrim is experiencing the latter. As to throwing off the possession because he is a Primarch, being a Primarch is not an 'I Win' button.

GFP


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## reapercake (Sep 14, 2011)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> being a Primarch is not an 'I Win' button.
> GFP


Love that line!:goodpost:


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## Black Steel Feathers (Aug 17, 2011)

jaysen said:


> It would make a great story line.
> 
> A chapter turns renegade when they discover that their geneseed was originally taken from the stored Emperor's Children geneseed that was kept in stasis on Terra. Temped by chaos to turn against the Emperor, they at first fight against imperial forces, but soon learn the truth about chaos. So then, the chapter goes about righting its wrongs and performing penance to restore the chapter honor. But, some intrepid heroes of the chapter can't let the new knowledge alone. They set out on a quest to save their primarch from eternal damnation. Through much strife and sacrifice, they are able to wrest Fulgrim's soul back from its prison within the Eye of Terror, freeing it to the grace of the Emperor and destroying the husk of Fulgrims former body.


Write it. I definately would read it!


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> The Exalted from _Blood Reaver_ allowed the Daemon to take control of him. Obviously not knowing the the consequences but nonetheless, resisted captivity and tried to regain control of its former body.


I don't think the exact nature of The Exalted/Captain Whats-his-face relationship/deal is ever made fully clear. We can clearly see that the Captain doesn't want the Exalted to be in control but we don't know how the Exalted got in there in the first place. I think that without more evidence showing that this case is similiar to Fulgrim's we can't really say that they are in the same boat.



Jerushee said:


> Because I see no reason why Fulgrim, a being made of the very warp itself, from the chaos gods them selves, could not overpower a daemon possessing him that's why.


Fulgrim isn't made from the warp. He was empowered by the warp but not made of it. Further, what exactly does his warpish nature have to do with resisting possession? Psykers have a greater conection to the warp than the average individual yet who is more likely to be possessed? If anything a stronger link can be drawn between warp-based power and ease of possession, suggesting (though I disagree with this) that Fulgrims very nature may have aided in his possession/hindered his resistance.



tsne16487 said:


> If a chapter master has the drive and will to overcome deamon princes then a Primarch would easily have the power to defeat a greater deamon even one thousands of years old.


There is a *massive *difference between winning a punch-up with a daemon and expelling one. I have no doubt that Fulgrim could literally wipe the floor with a greater daemon, he choked out an Avatar for christsakes. However, there is little (none to my knowledge) evidence suggesting that a Chapter Master has ever allowed a daemon to willingly take over his soul and then expelled it without aid.


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## tsne16487 (Aug 5, 2011)

I agree there is a massive difference between a good old fashioned dust-up to a battle of mental strength.

However, the mythos for the 40k universe pits the Primarchs mental capacity just under the emperors, as they are in fact created by his direct gene lines.

If one being has the physical capacity to trounce a deamon, then he must also have the mental capacuty and force of will to dominate the same deamon. Im not saying he could do it easily but the novels and other GW fluff does refer to the Primarchs as being like Gods of War, master tactiticans and sublime thinkers, and yet one of the most perfect of the primarchs is a drooling simpleton compared to a being that only knows malice, and hatred.

Not enough has been written about these things, and the 40k universe is eom 25 years old now, and were still debating the whys and wherefores on a web forum.

However I maintain my initial thoughts that this was due mostly to the authoer wanting to wrapup what was overall an ok book but not the best in the series so far.

Id like to See Fulgrim return in the Endtimes wielding the Warhammer that he made for Ferrus, after casting out his deamon psyche, and dealing out total pwnage to Abbaddon and his last dark crusade.

Or maybe he will destroy his own mind and the deamons in fighting him, leaving his body free to be inhabited by the Emperors spirit, who knows.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

tsne16487 said:


> However, the mythos for the 40k universe pits the Primarchs mental capacity just under the emperors, as they are in fact created by his direct gene lines.


Mental and spiritual (by which I mean psykic/warp related stuff) capabilities are different and not really related. Just because someone is a genius does not also mean they are a saint. History is full of brilliant, powerful and utterly evil men.



> If one being has the physical capacity to trounce a deamon, then he must also have the mental capacuty and force of will to dominate the same deamon.


This does not follow. Physical ability has absoulutely nothing to do with mental capacity or spiritual strength. Strong men are not necessarily better at casting out daemons. Smart men are not necessarily better. It is not overly hard to punch someone when they are standing in front of you, your strength determines how hard. How much harder is it to ignore that same person if they just keep talking to you on the phone and you can't hang up? Does your physical strength determine that? No.



> Im not saying he could do it easily but the novels and other GW fluff does refer to the Primarchs as being like Gods of War, master tactiticans and sublime thinkers, and yet one of the most perfect of the primarchs is a drooling simpleton compared to a being that only knows malice, and hatred.


I see nothing wrong with this. Fulgrim's theatre is war, this is what he was built and trained to do. He remains completely ignorant in the warp and the arts of psykic powers. A daemon on the other hand is made of this stuff. It's like a championship boxer going up against a chessmaster in chess. Do you really expect that the chess-pro wouldn't make the boxer look like an idiot (regardless of how actually intelligent the boxer is)?


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## tsne16487 (Aug 5, 2011)

Im not sure mental strength has anything to do with being a genius or not. Mental strength is about having the strength of will to back up your convictions, to be able to do what you have to in any given situation.

As an example veterans of WW2, it took unbelievable mental strength to keep moving forward through withering fire. This is not intellect, or bravery, as every veteran to a man admit they were terrified, and some of them hid in fear. But the ones that stood showed what mental strength can achieve. Mental strength is not Genius, Intellect or bravery. It is their strength of will, they know what they have to do, and they will strive to achieve it no matter what. The mental strength of the Primarchs is second ONLY to the Emperor. Yet when faced with posession by a lapdog of chaos he folded, its just a bit weak.

With regard to the second point, thats not what I was referring to. In-Short a defeated enemy with enough time and drive, mental will and sacrifice will always overthrow an oppressor, yet not in this case, he won the physical fight, lost the mental fight, and now he just sits there. All of Fulgrims attributes which made him not just a physical primarch vanished. Which once again seems a bit weak. 

With regard to the third point that also isnt what I was referring to. Just because he doesnt know about Psychic powers doesnt make his mind any weaker, he still has the same mental capacity, drive and will, regardless of his theatre. Also you assume a boxer would get embarrassed by a chess champ, hmm maybe. And by going down this line of thinking you are actually talking about intelligence again not strength of mental will.

In the first point you said it didnt matter how intelligent the person was, in your third point you talk about a chess-pro embarrassing a boxer because you assume he would be more intelligent. But we can go with this line of thinking:-

Do you think the pro-chess player would be as good if he had to endure physical injury and pain every move, if his opponent punched him every 10 seconds until he made his move? Do you think boxers enjoy being punched in the face? No of course not, and once again this has nothing to do with physical strength or bravery. They know they are going to get hit, and they have the mental fortitude to carry on and do what they have to do. It takes a very strong Mental state to be the best in a contact sport, compared to a pro boxer, a pro chess player has Zero Mental will, but he more than likely will be more intelligent. 

Mental strength has nothing to do with intelligence, bravery or knowledge. Mental strength is the ability to overcome regardless of the odds against you, to win a physical, spiritual, or battle of wits when you should have had no chance of doing so, because your opponent was either bigger and stronger, wiser or smarter.

Fulgrim bore the essence of the Emperor, mental strength second only to the Emperor. Regardless of a deamons make up, of his thousands of years of experience and history, of his evil nature and war like prowess, none of that diminishes Fulgrims mental strength. He is what he is and yet when the greatest test of his mental strength was put before him he folded. Even after he realised his mistake he didnt fight. Thats my main problem with the book. 

But fun to discuss with someone without the normal problem of erupting into a flame war.

Cheers


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

tsne16487 said:


> Im not sure mental strength has anything to do with being a genius or not. Mental strength is about having the strength of will to back up your convictions, to be able to do what you have to in any given situation.


It appears I rather drastically misinterpreted your statement about 'mental capacity' and then spent a rather lengthy post arguing against it. So let's try again.



> The mental strength of the Primarchs is second ONLY to the Emperor.


This is speculation as there is no way to measure (and thus compare) the willpower of an individual. 



> In-Short a defeated enemy with enough time and drive, mental will and sacrifice will always overthrow an oppressor,


This is not true. The victor has clearly proved himself to be stronger and removed the vanquished from his position of strength. Now the vanquished must work far harder to acheive a second victory. Now it is quite possible to do so, to suggest that it is ineveitable is foolish.



> yet not in this case, he won the physical fight, lost the mental fight, and now he just sits there.


What physical fight? The daemon was inside him the whole time. If you are referring to endurace and assuming the daemon will lose than you are making an assumption that has no basis in fact. Daemons are essentially nothing but willpower.



> With regard to the third point that also isnt what I was referring to. Just because he doesnt know about Psychic powers doesnt make his mind any weaker, he still has the same mental capacity, drive and will, regardless of his theatre. Also you assume a boxer would get embarrassed by a chess champ, hmm maybe. And by going down this line of thinking you are actually talking about intelligence again not strength of mental will.


1) It would be a poor chess master who could not school a layman.
2) I am not referring to intelligence, I am referring to experience and skill. This hypothetical boxer may be brilliant but if he has never played chess before (and has never even heard of it) the chess master will beat him.



> In the first point you said it didnt matter how intelligent the person was, in your third point you talk about a chess-pro embarrassing a boxer because you assume he would be more intelligent.


Not because he was more intelligent but because he is more experienced. Regardless of intelligence levels.



> But we can go with this line of thinking:-
> 
> Do you think the pro-chess player would be as good if he had to endure physical injury and pain every move, if his opponent punched him every 10 seconds until he made his move? Do you think boxers enjoy being punched in the face? No of course not, and once again this has nothing to do with physical strength or bravery. They know they are going to get hit, and they have the mental fortitude to carry on and do what they have to do. It takes a very strong Mental state to be the best in a contact sport, compared to a pro boxer, a pro chess player has Zero Mental will, but he more than likely will be more intelligent.


And here's where the anology falls apart. A daemon is not a chess master, they are not a stereotype of chess nerds. Nor is a Primarch a boxing champ, with the assumption of below average intelligence that that normally entails. 

To make a slightly stronger analogy. Take two individuals, one who is strong, handsome and brilliant, having never failed at anything but also having never played chess before and has only heard about it in passing. The other will be strong, brilliant and hungry with a lifetime of chess experience (he may even have helped invent it).

Now sit the two down at a chess board and tell them a 20oz steak is the winners prize. 

My money's on the guy with the experience and drive to win.



> Mental strength has nothing to do with intelligence, bravery or knowledge. Mental strength is the ability to overcome regardless of the odds against you, to win a physical, spiritual, or battle of wits when you should have had no chance of doing so, because your opponent was either bigger and stronger, wiser or smarter.


Again, my bad on the misunderstanding.



> But fun to discuss with someone without the normal problem of erupting into a flame war.


Indeed it is. Though in future could you actually quote my reply. It makes it hard to follow when you say 'the second point' and I have to go back a page to see what I said.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Those who said the Primarchs are not made of the warp are incorrect, it is directly stated that the primarchs are made up of the very warp itself. When Ferrus died reality was tearing around him and claws came out of a hole in reality attempting to drag Fulgrim into it.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Lux said:


> Those who said the Primarchs are not made of the warp are incorrect, it is directly stated that the primarchs are made up of the very warp itself. When Ferrus died reality was tearing around him and claws came out of a hole in reality attempting to drag Fulgrim into it.


I am not incorrect. I admitted that the Primarchs do contain warp energy inside them. However this is not the same as saying 'they are made of the warp' as that would render them unable to remain in the material plane for an extended period of time without warp rifts or hitherto unseen requirements. Further, after Ferrus' death (and the release of warp energy you mentioned) his head and body remained corpreal. This is clear evidence that the Primarchs were mortal, solid, real vessels and not made of the warp.

A lego person is largely empty space inside. Is a lego person made of air or plastic?


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> I am not incorrect. I admitted that the Primarchs do contain warp energy inside them. However this is not the same as saying 'they are made of the warp' as that would render them unable to remain in the material plane for an extended period of time without warp rifts or hitherto unseen requirements. Further, after Ferrus' death (and the release of warp energy you mentioned) his head and body remained corpreal. This is clear evidence that the Primarchs were mortal, solid, real vessels and not made of the warp.
> 
> A lego person is largely empty space inside. Is a lego person made of air or plastic?


Again, there is no right or wrong perspective to this. The Primarchs were indeed made up of entirely the warp, alluded to that the chaos gods themselves took part in their creation along with the Emperor.

Are they corporeal? Yes, are they purely warp based as well? Yes. They coexisted in the corporeal and the warp simultaneously, in the words of Magnus "They were blazing infernos in the warp".

They were the first and last of their kind, beings that were created of the warp yet were able to maintain permanent physical form. 

When Ferrus died, I interpreted that as Ferrus's Warp reflection tearing through reality to reach for Fulgrim in an attempt to save him from the Laer Blade which was growing dangerously close.

Primarchs were a coin, with a warp side and a physical side both existing simultaneously, however it is apparent they were not corporeal based or warp based they were a hybrid of the two.

They didn't even have organs it is alluded to.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Getting into this discussion kind of late, but aren't...



Lux said:


> The Primarchs were indeed made up of *entirely* the warp


and



Lux said:


> Primarchs were a coin, with a warp side and a physical side both existing simultaneously, however it is apparent they were not corporeal based or warp based they were a *hybrid of the two* .


...contradictory statements?







.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Lux said:


> Are they corporeal? Yes, are they purely warp based as well? Yes.


These statements are contradictory though. The warp is not Reality, it is not corporeal. Things made of the warp require either physical hosts or a blending of the two dimensions in order to influence the real world.



> They coexisted in the corporeal and the warp simultaneously, in the words of Magnus "They were blazing infernos in the warp".


So? This is exactly how every single human being operates. This is how 40k represents the soul. The Primarchs have powerful soul-light, this is evidence of the warp power inside them. It does not suggest or require that they somehow be made exlusively of the warp. Indeed it suggests the opposite as daemons (creatures of warp) are never suggested to have soul-light and are indeed part of the fabic of the warp.



> They were the first and last of their kind, beings that were created of the warp yet were able to maintain permanent physical form.


So, recursive logic then? They were able to do something no other being is capable of because they were able to. If that's your logic then I guess I can't argue with you.



> They didn't even have organs it is alluded to.


Based on the fact that the apothecaries didn't know how to fix Horus? That's hardly evidence that they didn't have organs. Indeed if I recall correctly the book actually states that the apothecaries didn't understand how to fix him, implying that he had organs to fix. I personally would've expected a medical proffesional to make a far bigger deal out of their boss not having internal organs.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Contradictions are but an illusion of the mind, formed when a perception is unable to perceive beyond what it imagines as normality.

As stated prior, the apothecaries were unable to repair Horus, I Interpret that as they were unable to understand his biological makeup in the slightest, finding no organs, perhaps just pure energy inside. It is not stated, it is left open to interpretation.

The Primarchs unlike any other being in the warhammer 40k lore, have an extremely bright Warp reflection, to the point where it is not a reflection but a simultaneous existence of their own self in the warp. ALA when Ferrus died, his warp self teared through reality, no other physical being has done so.

Ultimately warhammer 40k is very open ended, and there is no right or wrong, additionally as GW states "All material is both canon and not canon" as it is all from a fractured, limited, biased point of view in one way or another.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Lux said:


> Contradictions are but an illusion of the mind, formed when a perception is unable to perceive beyond what it imagines as normality.


Whoa...:laugh: Is that what you'd tell your boss if he said to you, "your repeated promises to be on time for work and your repeated actions of continually being late are contradictory?"





Lux said:


> As stated prior, the apothecaries were unable to repair Horus, I Interpret that as they were unable to understand his biological makeup in the slightest, finding no organs, perhaps just pure energy inside. It is not stated, it is left open to interpretation.


I think you're reading a bit much into this. Pure energy inside? Are you meaning they have no organs? I think the point of that particular reference was to focus on how they couldn't heal the grievous wound (just like Horus' own body couldn't) caused by the Anathame blade. Which was the whole point of why Erebus took it, so Horus would have to turn to Chaos to be healed.





Lux said:


> The Primarchs unlike any other being in the warhammer 40k lore, have an extremely bright Warp reflection, to the point where it is not a reflection but a simultaneous existence of their own self in the warp. ALA when Ferrus died, his warp self teared through reality, no other physical being has done so.


You're simply using your own interpretations to defend your own interpretations here.





Lux said:


> Ultimately warhammer 40k is very open ended, and there is no right or wrong, additionally as GW states "All material is both canon and not canon" as it is all from a fractured, limited, biased point of view in one way or another.


Apparently so, which is why I believe the Emperor was really an advanced tribble inside a human suit inside a suit of armor.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

But tribbles ain't from the 40k universe!


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> But tribbles ain't from the 40k universe!


Ahh yes, but the 40K universe is _"ultimately"_ *so* _"very open ended," _that it allows other universes in.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Omg then the Emperor was really Professor X!


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Omg then the Emperor was really Professor X!


Damn, I guess that explains a lot of things... the throne is really a wheelchair... All those baldheaded space marines are just trying to be like old x.

Okay, I am now ready for a spandex wearing, overly sexed Jean Grey who flies and defeats enemies with her mind.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I hate it when there is a new post super early in the morning only for me to excitedly click on it in hopes of an insightful post and see a HURP ADERP DURP?


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I remeber the Soul Hunter series so far. IF you remember Vandred's possession I don't think that Fulgrim's conciousness is going to survive. Vandred was only possessed for maybe a century or more at best. Fulgrim is approaching his eleventh century. I don't think there's anything left there. If you read the Fulgrim, Fulgrim wanted oblivion and changed his mind too late. While the daemon didn't have the ability to possess him full on,what's he let down his natural defence it was over.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Time is different in the Warp though?


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> Vandred was only possessed for maybe a century or more at best. Fulgrim is approaching his eleventh century.


No, Fulgrim is approaching his _one hundredth_ century of possession.

Even if Fulgrim did dispossess the daemon, he still has a number of problems:

1) Getting away from the Pleasure Planet alive. He will be hunted by the entire planet.
2) He's a six-armed snake. How does he revert his body to humanoid norms?
3) Simple warp corruption from being deep in the eye
4) Is he even sane at this point?
5) Finding his way out of the Eye. It is said that nobody knows the way to the Pleasure Planet. The right way from there is probably just as hard to find.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Maybe Corax and Leman Russ are attempting to save him?


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

If Fulgrim was possesed in the 31st millenium and we are now in the 41st how is he in his 100th centurty of posession? A century being a hudred years and he's been in the thrall of Slaanesh since the previous century and now we are in 41. I don't believe after everything that's happened if Leman Russ or especially Corax found him they'd do anything (especially with his appearance) but try and decapitate him.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Time flows differently in the Warp so he probably has been possessed for something like five years which in the material realm is 100 centuries.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> If Fulgrim was possesed in the 31st millenium and we are now in the 41st how is he in his 100th centurty of posession?


One millennium = 1000 years = 10 centuries. 41 - 31 = 10 millennia. 10x10 = 100. QED.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Lux said:


> Contradictions are but an illusion of the mind, formed when a perception is unable to perceive beyond what it imagines as normality.


That's deep bro. And totally unhelpful. Contradictions occur when two facts oppose one another, facts are facts and are thus held to be true regardless of the perceivers internal bais. 



> As stated prior, the apothecaries were unable to repair Horus, I Interpret that as they were unable to understand his biological makeup in the slightest, finding no organs, perhaps just pure energy inside.


There is a *huge* difference between 'unable to understand his biological makeup' and 'finding no organs'. The one suggests that Horus is vastly different on the inside from Space Marines and normal humans, hardly surprising given that he is a genetically engineered super-soldier. The other suggests that he is some kind of super advanced jellyfish or pure energy being, which I figure an Apothecary would've made a bigger deal about. After all it's likely that Apothecaries don't understand the biological makeup of Eldar (particularly at this point in time), does that mean Eldar are warp beings? Hell no.



> The Primarchs unlike any other being in the warhammer 40k lore, have an extremely bright Warp reflection, to the point where it is not a reflection but a simultaneous existence of their own self in the warp.


I realize this is stretching but I don't suppose you have a source (a GW source) that actually states that the Primarch's soul-light is actually different in nature to that of conventional humanity, as opposed to simply stronger.



> ALA when Ferrus died, his warp self teared through reality, no other physical being has done so.


We actually don't really know what was happening in this scene. It could be that his warp self tore through reality (which doesn't require it being any different as a conventional soul with more power) or it could be that the sudden soul release attracted so many daemons to feed that they momentarily breached the warp-real space barrier. In other words, it is quite simply to explain this occurance without resorting to 'he's made purely of the warp' an answer that actually creates more questions. Occam's Razor my friend. My reasoning is simple and non-contradictory, your's is not.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

What is this talk about Manuss's soul tearing through reality all about?


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## reapercake (Sep 14, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> We actually don't really know what was happening in this scene. It could be that his warp self tore through reality (which doesn't require it being any different as a conventional soul with more power) or it could be that the sudden soul release attracted so many daemons to feed that they momentarily breached the warp-real space barrier. In other words, it is quite simply to explain this occurance without resorting to 'he's made purely of the warp' an answer that actually creates more questions. Occam's Razor my friend. My reasoning is simple and non-contradictory, your's is not.


I agree I figured that the huge emotions at play attracted the daemons. 

(Or maybe it was a metaphysical event purely in the "warping" mind of Fulgrim and was a representative of the daemon breaking through his final barriers:laugh


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

I also believed it was the emotions and devastation of the around Ferrus and Fulgrim that caused the warp to 'rift' . Two brothers of the closest relation fighting to the death, Fulgrim was using a daemonic weapon, and a Primarch's soul is always going to attract daemons. All the chaos and death and deep emotional instability happening, I believe, is what caused reality to shift. Coupled with the sheer power of a Primarch, his death in battle would be like a reality bomb going off.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> What is this talk about Manuss's soul tearing through reality all about?


Towards the end of _Fulgrim_ Manus and Fulgrim duel and after 

Fulgrim cuts off Manus' head 
 there is a release of warp energy that claws at Fulgrim and tries to suck him into it/eat him. It's not made clear what exactly is going on though.


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## SolidusPRime (Aug 23, 2010)

locustgate said:


> Yeah sorry forgot about the blade, I remember it mentioning his soul being trapped in the painting.


I just got done reading the book myself, and it made me remember this comment from the boards lol.

Honestly, they leave it very open in the end without specifically saying it, but strongly hint that Fulgrim could indeed be trapped in the painting. 



In the end it going over a brief span of time where it is talking about the "new" fulgrim with the Emperor's Children. First, he talks about how the Laer trapped a portion of his essence within the blade. Even though he was now free, the blade was still a good sword, and he gave it to Lucius. 

Almost in the very next paragraph, he walks into the theatre, and the painting that was hideous and evil before, now looks all clean and shows what the demon knows was "The most perfect vision of a warrior that will have ever existed, but they will never see it again" or something to that effect. The paintings eyes look at him with panic, and "follow him". Yes, I know this could really just be flavor description. But ALL of this combined, with the fact that the demon "turns the lights off on the last phoenix" as he walks out...I think he could be in the painting.


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

Fulgrim was a strong and great warrior, but a mental weakling. While I enjoyed the book Fulgrim, I didn't much like Fulgrim himself or his legion. All that talk about perfection... They talked about perfection more than they ever achieved it. Think about it, what is a perfect battle but a victory with zero losses? Against the Laer they definitely achieved victory faster than would have been predicted, but at what cost? 800 dead marines and many more wounded? I think we can all agree that that is pretty far from perfect.

So rather than perfection, the Emperors Children instead demonstrate arrogance which is confidences weaker cousin. It was arrogance that led Fulgrim to alter his marines to make them better than those from other legions, it was arrogance that led him to believe he was better at all. It was arrogance that garnered his anger towards his brother Ferrus for saving his life. It was arrogance that the daemon exploited to possess Fulgrim's body. 

When Fulgrim saw that he killed his brother, the reality of his weakness struck him and rather than turn against the daemon influencing his decisions like I would expect any other primarch to do Fulgrim willingly submits to the daemon who promises him an escape from emotional pain of guilt. The fact that he willingly submits is simple proof of his incredible weakness. 

Having willingly submitted I believe makes it that much stronger to repossess the body. I was left with the impression that Fulgrim was trapped in the painting.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I enjoy the daemons explanation that he's screaming in his own mind while witnessing everything the daemons does. I remember what Vandred was going through in the Soul Hunter and can only imagine Fulgrim has to be that times a hundred. Responsible for killing two of his brothers and his legion warped and irreversibly damned?Good story.


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## SolidusPRime (Aug 23, 2010)

SPOILERS FROM AURELIAN



Lorgar confirms that Fulgrim IS indeed in the painting, and that the demon wont hold onto his body forever...Interesting little bit at the end made me smile as I realised where they were heading


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

SolidusPRime said:


> SPOILERS FROM AURELIAN
> 
> 
> 
> Lorgar confirms that Fulgrim IS indeed in the painting, and that the demon wont hold onto his body forever...Interesting little bit at the end made me smile as I realised where they were heading


So what does this mean? Does it mean that originally the daemon planned on abandoning his body? Did it mean Fulgrim would have gotten his body back, or could have gotten it back? Can he still?


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

SolidusPRime said:


> SPOILERS FROM AURELIAN
> 
> 
> 
> Lorgar confirms that Fulgrim IS indeed in the painting, and that the demon wont hold onto his body forever...Interesting little bit at the end made me smile as I realised where they were heading





In 40k the usual reason a daemon can't hold onto a body it possesses is because the body is destroyed by possession. That does not bode well for Fulgrim.

There is also the matter of intelligent dispossession. If the possessing daemon is smart, it goes deep in the eye (which is where the Pleasure Planet reportedly is) and dispossesses Fulgrim. The raw warp energy either shreds him where he stands or corrupts him. In the unlikely event neither happens Fulgrim is stuck there with no means of escape surrounded by an army of Slannesh daemons and Chaos Champions looking to kill/main/torture him. That is a spectacle I'm sure "Fulgrim" would enjoy.

Either scenario means Fulgrim is irretrievable.


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## SolidusPRime (Aug 23, 2010)

Lorgar kind of made it sound like he was going to go back and get him himself....Even though he didn't have all that much love for Fulgrim, he was EXTREMELY pissed that the daemon had done that. He said it was an abomination, and not what Gods wanted with humans (The daemon forcing Fulgrim out, instead of living in unison with him, like the possessed)

Lorgar seemed pretty confidant and satisfied that Fulgrim would get out one day....all this after going on his crazy future-seeing, warp journey.

Speaking of which, Lorgar walked on a couple of daemon planets in the Eye, and wasn't torn to shreds by the chaos (referencing the above comment amount Fulgrim being screwed on a Daemon planet)


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

SolidusPRime said:


> Lorgar kind of made it sound like he was going to go back and get him himself....Even though he didn't have all that much love for Fulgrim, he was EXTREMELY pissed that the daemon had done that. He said it was an abomination, and not what Gods wanted with humans (The daemon forcing Fulgrim out, instead of living in unison with him, like the possessed)
> 
> Lorgar seemed pretty confidant and satisfied that Fulgrim would get out one day....all this after going on his crazy future-seeing, warp journey.
> 
> Speaking of which, Lorgar walked on a couple of daemon planets in the Eye, and wasn't torn to shreds by the chaos (referencing the above comment amount Fulgrim being screwed on a Daemon planet)





I think Lorgar is projecting his own biases when he claims to know what the Chaos Gods really want. I see no evidence that they care what their daemons do to humans, though in the abstract it would be bad for the Chaos Gods if their daemons actually succeeded in wiping out humanity, which is their wont when in the Materium.

Was Lorgar physically on those planets or was it another illusionary journey? Besides, Lorgar may have been protected. Not all planets in the Eye will harm you just by standing on them, otherwise the Traitor Marines themselves would all have been destroyed by now. Even if the Marines could stand it, their human slaves couldn't. That said, I thought it generally understood that the "deeper" in the Eye you go the closer to actual warp conditions (i.e. instant death) you get, and the Pleasure Planet is said to be very deep. Death or corruption from proximity to the warp would be hard to avoid.


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## SolidusPRime (Aug 23, 2010)

randian said:


> I think Lorgar is projecting his own biases when he claims to know what the Chaos Gods really want. I see no evidence that they care what their daemons do to humans, though in the abstract it would be bad for the Chaos Gods if their daemons actually succeeded in wiping out humanity, which is their wont when in the Materium.
> 
> Was Lorgar physically on those planets or was it another illusionary journey? Besides, Lorgar may have been protected. Not all planets in the Eye will harm you just by standing on them, otherwise the Traitor Marines themselves would all have been destroyed by now. Even if the Marines could stand it, their human slaves couldn't. That said, I thought it generally understood that the "deeper" in the Eye you go the closer to actual warp conditions (i.e. instant death) you get, and the Pleasure Planet is said to be very deep. Death or corruption from proximity to the warp would be hard to avoid.




Good point, it is never stated as concrete fact, "Hey the gods want symbotism instead of death"...I guess I made that conclusion myself, and it is opinion. I do personally believe it is true however. As you stated, they would lose if humanity died. I also get the feeling that Lorgar is pretty knowlageable at this point, and not really "guessing" and "putting two and two together". His new psychic sight and journeys seem to have given him an incredible insight. As mad as he is with religeon, I really do believe he is "The archpriest of the gods" like he claims.

But then again, it's chaos. They could just be pumping him up and filling him with half truths like so many others. I don't get that feeling though, myself. It seems as though the gods went through quite a bit to set Lorgar up since the beginning of his life, and then throughout. He is just a tool of course, but one theyve put a lot of time and effort into, and in the demon's words, Lorgar actually loves the gods because they are gods. It is true and utter worship, and not a mortal just grasping for power. 

In the end though, we as the readers are left to guess the truth just as much as the characters.

I never knew about the whole "deeper you go, stronger the eye gets" thing, it makes sense, BUT also consider that the planet they were on was supposedly at the heart of the old Eldar empire, which technically SHOULD be in the center of the Eye, right? But good point on the whole "could have been an illusion thing"


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

So the possibility of Fulgrim one day escaping still stands? I like that the writers basically left the possibility of any primarch being able to return, even if it is very slim.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yes from my interpretation of Lorgar's little interaction with Daemon Fulgrim, it appears Lorgar expects Fulgrim to return to normal eventually, he even refers to the daemons possession as a "stewardship".


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

aren't these spoiler tags a little redundant this far into a thread?


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

Could it not be possible that he was saying that Fulgrim is still in there, not in the painting. Could he not be looking at the painting and thinking that is your brother. At the end of Fulgrim, I got the sense that if he could he wanted to take back all he did. That the daemon promised him an out for his internal agony. Horus might not of acted because he needed the Emperors Children. That's why after Fulgrim lowers his mental defense he realizes what he has done. When the daemon is talking to Lorgar, he's showing him that his brother is still a Crusade hero perhaps? That is why Lorgar warned the daemon to be ready for the day his brother won out. A similar tale for the exalted in ADB's Night Lords Trilogy.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

SolidusPRime said:


> Speaking of which, Lorgar walked on a couple of daemon planets in the Eye, and wasn't torn to shreds by the chaos (referencing the above comment amount Fulgrim being screwed on a Daemon planet)


Not all daemon worlds are constantly embroiled in warfare. They are all fucked up, but just by standing on one you won't automatically be killed. You have to remember that the Eye of Terror is host to trillions of mortals, civilisations and empires can thrive (in a particular way) within it's boundaries. Don't get me wrong, its a very harsh place but it is not the warp itself.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

So this hints that Fulgrim has been allowing the daemon to possess him, rather then being forcefully possessed?


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

Lux said:


> So this hints that Fulgrim has been allowing the daemon to possess him, rather then being forcefully possessed?



To me yes. That is how I see it. After he slays Ferrus it seems as if the Daemon removes his influence to show him that Ferrus tried to save him in the ship and other examples. But the part that draws me in to seeing it that way is the Daemon offers to take it all away. That Fulgrim should lower his defense to help him enter his body. Like I said, I'm not an expert just see Fulgrim as a tragic hero who is stuck watching this daemon do what he will.

In addition, the reason he hasn't take control back yet is to me like the trojan horse theory. Once an enemy by passes your defenses, you have to retreat or stem the tide somewhere. But often times as you see in the spartans in 300 or troy, those battles don't go in your favor if you don't withdraw and rebuild your strength.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

I got two directions going with this and as we all know ADB have a way of writing something and people tend to read too much into it. When daemon-Fulgrim shows the painting, it could also be a symbolic gesture of saying "This is the brother you are looking for, at his prime, but he will never become that ever again!" or it is that the soul is trapped within the painting (which I hope for so there is still hope for him).


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## Imp Blackheart (Nov 29, 2010)

one thing that has been common through all the debates is the fact you all have failed to mention the beginning of this change in the IIIrd legion as well as fulgrim.

the turning point would be the battle that was held on the planet that fulgrim obtained the daemon sword. now remember, thousands of his marines were on the planet including fulgrim, as well as countless numbers of the imperial forces. they all made references to a strange yet beautiful music. in the chamber that the sword was taken from the cavern was filled with the bodies of the alien culture that performed some form of ritual( possible to summon a daemon, or ask for slaaneshes help IDK..) but in either event you now have an entire crusade fleet that is "contaminated" by warp influence and for sake of argument this planet was a daemon world. fulgrim takes the sword and unknowingly takes possession of a daemon who then starts subtly influencing fulgrim.
end of Phase 1 of the corruption.

Phase 2, would be the allowance of the remebrancers onto the planets surface. now you have mortals that are a HUGE influence on fulgrims fleet ( YES they are, and fulgrim encouraged the social interaction of the remebrancers and his legion ) being contaminated by this daemon world that in turn works it into their works. the painting of fulgrim, the opera that was to copy exactly the beauty of the planet and the music that everyone heard. 
phase 3, now time has passed since the influences of the daemon planet, and all those touched by it are now spreading the corruption to the others on the fleet, those who resist ended up sealing themselves away ( hence the story of the stone mason ) while at the same time the sword is working its influence on fulgrim, causing thoughts to be where they should not have been, tampering with his emotions. when he first meets with his brother, he did not bring the sword that his brother made and gave to him, he instead brought the daemon sword(and i forgot to mention that the daemon was in fact sealed away into the gem on the pommel) which was noticed by his brother, as well as the conflict that stirs between the two.

now the turning point for the power of the daemon was in fact the opening night of the opera, and what sealed the IIIrd legions fate. they unknowingly had summoned the will of slaanesh onto fulgrims ship through the SONG that everyone was soooooo obsessed with. the song is key for everything *nods* now events that lead to istavan V and the daemon finally offering fulgrim release. by this time the daemons corrupting influence is at its peak, spending months of direct contact and bending his will allowed the strength for the daemon. while at the same time fulgrims ignorance to what the warp really was.

anyways thats my take, its more then just simple fulgrim being weak, this was a long drawn exposure to an unknown threat.

unlike horus which was thrown directly into the exposures from encountering nurgle, and the word bearers chaplin nudging horus to harms way. fulgrim was over come by subtly.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Whatever the future holds death is Fulgrim (if he exists only option). He will never be forgiven for what he's done. Why you ask. Well unlike the other primarchs who went traitor he's killed TWO LOYALIST PRIMARCHS. The Iron Warriors will want to see him dead for the Istavaan affair and the Ultrasmurfs and all their spinoff chapters will want him dead for mortally wounding Roboute. That's not to mention the other astartes chapters wanting him dead for general purposes. Then we get to the Imperium itself will want to see him dead for being a traitor as well. 

If you aren't happy with the Lord of Shadows Fulgrim then I guess just forget about him. He gave that daemon control because he didn't want to exist anymore. The true horror is that it took over his body instead of destroying him. Since they would be the subject matter experts on such things if what Lorgar and Magnus say of him is true than it's over. I didn't want to believe Curze was dead but when I read Soul Hunter, someone walking around with his head was too much to overlook. Same thing with people who are Gulliman or Dorn fans. People say that this shouldn't have happened because he's a primarch. They are right. The only reason this happened is because Fulgrim literally let down all his defenses and let an entity older than time as the book say invade his mind,body,and soul. It was a mistake he paid for and that's it. It's over and as far as anyone is concerned Fulgrim is a 4 meter tall snake with wings and six arms.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

@ Imp Blackheart


yes it was long and drawn out. I find it more interesting the way the Daemon tainted Fulgrim thought was by hiding or more covering some of his emotions to let his other emotions rise. You're right it was long and drawn out but if you have ever done something and had someone come save your ass, sometimes you take the pride side and don't admit he saves you. Instead you make the claim, I had it well in hand you didn't need to save me. The Daemon Sword does this to him. It covers up his emotions. At the end of Fulgrim, the Daemon drops its pressence to show him the truth. It is then that Fulgrim realizes how many people he has help damn to include himself. So He lets down his defenses.

@Deadeye776

It's true he only has death set for him. I think the warning Lorgar sets out there is more that the Daemon needs to stay on his toes because one day Fulgrim might regain control. I suppose Dorn and Robboute fans hold on because there more traitor primarchs still around than loyal. (Still around refers to life) I personally feel bad for Fulgrim but he needs to die anyway.


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## Lord Solar Terminus (Aug 6, 2009)

Weak-willed, self-absorbed and stupid.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

Lord Solar Terminus said:


> Weak-willed, self-absorbed and stupid.


Umm I think that is what Lorgar is warning the Daemon about. That he's not weak will and he will fight back. But oh well it's just fluff.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

They like to give you far flung hope in this universe. The truth is is that Fulgrim wasn't weak willed. He saw his mistake and him killing his closest brother and he didn't want to exist anymore. The betrayal of his father and everything were made apparent to him by the daemon intentionally showing him how his pride blinded him. It wasn't the daemon that did this but Fulgrim himeslf. He allowed everyhthing including his posession to occur out of depthless guilt. Read it again in Fulgrim. It's not just him betraying the Emperor and killing his own brother. He looks around and sees what his sons have become. He sees the slaughter and knows he's heavily responsible. In the end he was a man with nothing left to exsit for.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

@deadeye

You're dead on. I agree but I think he will still fight for his body back at some point because it did trick him. I mean imagine being ashamed of what you've done then being forced to watch it continue.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

That's where the nightmare universe comes into play. If this were lord of the rings or Star Wars I'm sure he'd be given a chance at redemption. In 40k getting a second chance after what he's done is heavily improbable. It's over for Fulgrim. Even if he defeated the daemon he'd be in the same position as Magnus. He's gone to far to ever turn back. Unless they change the dynamic of 40k and start offering some hope to the Imperium (Emperor's ressurection,Primarchs return, balancing the Imperial deficit,jk) they aren't going to change his status.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

I mentioned this in a similar thread but:



In_ Blood Reaver_ the Night Lord claw leader possessed by a Daemon (forgot his name and title) was able to bide his time and strike out against the Daemon. 

So considering a Primarch is involved, it is possible he is still around waiting for an opportunity to overcome his fate. However, it should be noted that by this stage he would be completely unable to retake his body, as his body has been twisted and altered to suit the needs of the Slaaneshi Daemon.

So the best he can hope for is striking out in a dangerous situation for the Daemon and get him destroyed, thus freeing himself, ala _Blood Reaver_ 


Anyway, I was just curious if anyone knows the official source that calls the Slaaneshi Greater Daemon, The Lord of Shadows?

I know of the title/name, but not where its came from.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

That is Vandred and the Exalted in Blood Reaver and no I dont know. You might want to check out the Daemons Codex. But I think what Dead eye is saying is even if he frees himself, he's still screwed. Same for Vandred. The best hope he has is to at least punish said daemon that imprisioned him.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Also, as has been brought up earlier in this thread, Fulgrim submitted to the daemon, it is not likely (though it's never officially stated either way) that Vandred full out surrendered to the Exalted. It seems to me like it was sort of a possession or warp gifting gone awry.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> Also, as has been brought up earlier in this thread, Fulgrim submitted to the daemon, it is not likely (though it's never officially stated either way) that Vandred full out surrendered to the Exalted. It seems to me like it was sort of a possession or warp gifting gone awry.


Agreed


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Completely agree. I think Vandred thought he would be getting more powerful and instead got screwed over. Fulgrim is a tale of a suicide attempt gone wrong. Stupid? Yes. Weak Willed? No. Without the decpetion and subterfuge he would have never defeated Fulgrim. With all that firepower he could have walked in front of a tank or jumped into a reactor or something. Then again if he'd known about daemons to begin with (once again the Emp screwing his sons) he may have made better decisions from the beginning and maybe could have impeded the heresy.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

Now I wonder if the daemons warning from Lorgar is to help keep the daemon on guard or because he wishes his brothers return. I mean I think the daemon identifies the picture of Fulgrim as him because he is still that old ideology and he is possibly a loyalist at heart


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