# Chaos Sorcerer or Chaos Prince???



## Kalidas (Apr 21, 2014)

So with the new rules it has become apparent I need to add more psychicness to my army or suffer the wrath of psychic doom!

I am building a Nurgle Chaos Space Marine army, featuring Typhus as my main dude. I want to get a second HQ I am thinking either a Sorcerer or a Prince... why is this a tough decision? I will explain now.

First points there is a large difference in points, second I can give the sorcerer term army thus making him tougher than a Prince... weird I know. Next I want to use him with Typhus and the squad of Terminators I want to run him with. Specifically using the invisibility power (it's too good of a power not to use!) If I get a prince I can't put him in the unit with Typhus and the termies, if I go with Sorcerer I can, thus making both Typhus and the Sorcerer and his Termies invisible.

At first I was thinking Prince but the Sorcerer is starting to sound better especially if I add a Nurgle Planquin, and termie armor to the Sorcerer, what do you all think?


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Well, if you want to be assured of getting Invisibility, you can go for Be'lakor, since he knows every power in the Telepathy discipline. He is a very expensive Daemon Prince to field on top of Typhus, however...


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## Kalidas (Apr 21, 2014)

Mossy Toes said:


> Well, if you want to be assured of getting Invisibility, you can go for Be'lakor, since he knows every power in the Telepathy discipline. He is a very expensive Daemon Prince to field on top of Typhus, however...


Oh go with Deamons as the allies or since he is a prince he can be an HQ in a standard CSM army?


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## Kalidas (Apr 21, 2014)

Never mind I found him, is he worth it?


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Kalidas said:


> Never mind I found him, is he worth it?


He was a beast in escalation games, as he had Puppetmaster - Unfortunately that psyker power is removed from 7th, so I don't know his value at this point.


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## Kalidas (Apr 21, 2014)

Nordicus said:


> He was a beast in escalation games, as he had Puppetmaster - Unfortunately that psyker power is removed from 7th, so I don't know his value at this point.


Yeah I don't think so sadly, He has the same issues a normal Daemon Prince has without the ability to buy any armor. So if I wouldn't take a Prince I wouldn't take him aside from a guarantee to get invisibility. Yet he is in my opinion to easy to kill for the points he costs. I could go with the sorcerer and all the fun stuff I was saying and generate all his powers from Telepathy Psychic Shriek is awesome and getting invisibility will be fairly likely if not shrouded is a close second


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Sorcerer with Palaquin I would personally go for, as you can also give him a spell familiar which is just re-oll psychic tests which is really good now tests are much more likely to fail. He then has more wounds in case he perils and is a ble to join a unit so he can't be specifically targetted.

If it was for Deamonology then I would go for the Prince as he is much less likely to kill himself from doing it which is helpful


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## Kalidas (Apr 21, 2014)

falcoso said:


> Sorcerer with Palaquin I would personally go for, as you can also give him a spell familiar which is just re-oll psychic tests which is really good now tests are much more likely to fail. He then has more wounds in case he perils and is a ble to join a unit so he can't be specifically targetted.
> 
> If it was for Deamonology then I would go for the Prince as he is much less likely to kill himself from doing it which is helpful


Yeah Spell Familiar is for sure a bonus I want. Perils are a scary thing now, while they are kind of annoying at first they are actually genuinely terrifying now.I wish I could manage to get invisibility AND endurance but that seems so unlikely.

I was wondering actually if a spell effects the psyker does it effect his unit also?


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## Kalidas (Apr 21, 2014)

Kalidas said:


> Yeah Spell Familiar is for sure a bonus I want. Perils are a scary thing now, while they are kind of annoying at first they are actually genuinely terrifying now.I wish I could manage to get invisibility AND endurance but that seems so unlikely.
> 
> I was wondering actually if a spell effects the psyker does it effect his unit also?


Nope I just checked the rule and some say the Psyker and his unit and some say JUST the psyker, so going Biomancy to get Iron arm and endurance is a flop. thus making endurance the only good power on there for what I want to do and invisibility is just as good at keeping a unit alive.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Enfeeble is always a really nice power as well, -1 str and T is pretty good but that hasn't changed since last edition. But it is warp charge 1


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## Kalidas (Apr 21, 2014)

falcoso said:


> Enfeeble is always a really nice power as well, -1 str and T is pretty good but that hasn't changed since last edition. But it is warp charge 1


Enfeeble is pretty nice I will agree to that, especially making all terrain dangerous terrain.


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## Kalidas (Apr 21, 2014)

Did discover something new and sad. A Chaos Lord or Chaos Sorcerer can not take terminator armor AND a palanquin at the same time. So it's either the armor and two wounds or the palanquin and power armor.


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

Is it so important to have a psyker for psychic defence? Seems to me that now psykers are more efficient the fewer you have (1 psyker being optimal, 6 or 7 being too many casters for too few dice). I could be mistaken since I've only read online about the new psychic phase, but an opponent bringing loads of psykers doesn't seem like an intimidating prospect by itself since they'll be fighting over the dice pool rather than all casting like before. 

Again I might be wrong, but isn't it the case for dispel dice you get D6 per turn plus one for every mastery level in your army? I'd sooner defend myself against psychic powers with ablative bodies, or perhaps a vindicator to nuke enemy psykers. You can't dispel a S10 AP2 large blast.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

:goodpost: This is exactly what I thought, so many people have been writing lists about psyker batteries when they are simply not effecient. You do get lots of dice to dispel with but its not effecient to cast with. Personally I think some psykers are required if you have one available in your army (otherwise crons will just need to take gloom prisms though with the changes they sucka s they get no bonus dice) just to get some more dice to chuck at a power.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

falcoso said:


> otherwise crons will just need to take gloom prisms though with the changes they sucka s they get no bonus dice)


Ok, falcoso, this isn't aimed at you but your statement is a good catalyst for a rant:

Ugh, SHUT UP about Necrons and Tau being nerfed by the Psychic Phase. Necrons are _really strong in Movement, Shooting and Assault_. You're not allowed to be strong at all four. Tau are crappy at assault, yeah, but they're really crazy good at movement and shooting to compensate. Compare it to Space Marines - they're not as good at movement or shooting as Necrons, but they're a little better in close combat and have a psychic phase, so it balances out. If Necrons could Deny powers reliably, they'd be a strong contender in every single damn phase.

Every army needs a weakness. It just so happens that yours is the new shiny thing that everyone is claiming to be the new overpowered thing.

*breathes*

On-topic, I'd bring a Sorceror if you just want some psychic support with a couple of powers, but if you want to build around something, bring Be'lakor. Shrouding is really nice - Invisibility is cool, especially on a combat unit, but I think Shrouding is the real gold. You can be really silly with cover saves if you have freely-available Shrouding, especially as Be'lakor can Jink freely since he has no ranged weapons (oh, you'll have to snap-fire Psychic Shriek, but who cares?) to give himself a 2+.


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## Kalidas (Apr 21, 2014)

MidnightSun said:


> Ok, falcoso, this isn't aimed at you but your statement is a good catalyst for a rant:
> 
> Ugh, SHUT UP about Necrons and Tau being nerfed by the Psychic Phase. Necrons are _really strong in Movement, Shooting and Assault_. You're not allowed to be strong at all three. Tau are crappy at assault, yeah, but they're really crazy good at movement and shooting to compensate. Compare it to Space Marines - they're not as good at movement or shooting as Necrons, but they're a little better in close combat and have a psychic phase, so it balances out. If Necrons could Deny powers reliably, they'd be a strong contender in every single damn phase.
> 
> ...


Okay thanks for the advice, yeah I will probably just stick with the sorc then for the support, and castability. One of my large worries is sometimes i play with my Dad and he plays psyker heavy Eldar, I know I can never compete unless I take a secondary detachment of Daemons. 

I know psychic will never be my strong suit (I'm looking at 5 dice plus the D6 roll) but I already want to bring Typhus I don't see why not bring another psyker to add to Typhus. Especially as some support in a unit of Terminators behind a zombie screen.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Kalidas said:


> he plays psyker heavy Eldar, I know I can never compete unless I take a secondary detachment of Daemons.


No, you can't out-dice Eldar with anything but Tyranids in the psychic phase, in my humble opinion. Don't even bother, he'll throw a load of dice at everything because he has a stupid number of Warp Charge and essentially ignores Perils on his Farseers.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> You can be really silly with cover saves if you have freely-available Shrouding, especially as Be'lakor can Jink freely since he has no ranged weapons (oh, you'll have to snap-fire Psychic Shriek, but who cares?) to give himself a 2+.


I'm so happy you pointed that out. Mah boy Be'lakor got even better! Too bad about Puppet Master, but oh well. Just gives me a chance to use different powers.


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## Kalidas (Apr 21, 2014)

venomlust said:


> I'm so happy you pointed that out. Mah boy Be'lakor got even better! Too bad about Puppet Master, but oh well. Just gives me a chance to use different powers.


Yeah I just realized that too, who needs a 3+ armor save when he gets a 2+ cover save and a 4++? Only reason I think I will take a sorcerer over him is because he has to be the warlord. Since this is a plague marine army I'm making not having plague marines as troops is not worth it. 

Another issus is a daemon prince NEEDS to take at least one patron deity power. Leaving me less options in other places making them not as good as psyker support.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

You do realize you can take a nekkid 80 point nurgle lord and unlock the PM? It doesn't have to be the warlord to unlock them, just has to be in the primary detachment.


Bel'akor does not take a mark either. His whole background is focused on the fact he is a unmarked DP.


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## Kalidas (Apr 21, 2014)

scscofield said:


> You do realize you can take a nekkid 80 point nurgle lord and unlock the PM? It doesn't have to be the warlord to unlock them, just has to be in the primary detachment.
> 
> 
> Bel'akor does not take a mark either. His whole background is focused on the fact he is a unmarked DP.


Oh yeah I know that. But I really want Typhus lol. Wait Typhus doesn't need to be the warlord to unlock PM as troops either right? Hhhmmmm damn back at square one, kind of. Be'lakor is looking like a neat choice. But man 350points...


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Are you wanting plague zombies or just plague marines? Typhus isn't needed if your just after the PM.


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## Kalidas (Apr 21, 2014)

scscofield said:


> Are you wanting plague zombies or just plague marines? Typhus isn't needed if your just after the PM.


Oh both of course. Why would anyone take Typhus and not zombies?! It may sound weird but I like his story, and come on ZOMBIES!

I'm stil thinking a sorcerer 350 points for a support psyker sounds too expensive


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

It's annoying to have to roll on a chaos power table, but at least you get some witchfires out of the deal. Not great ones, but they're something.


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## Kalidas (Apr 21, 2014)

venomlust said:


> It's annoying to have to roll on a chaos power table, but at least you get some witchfires out of the deal. Not great ones, but they're something.


Meh you're gonna be rolling in tables no matter what you choose


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

I retract my point about Be'Lakor being useless - I hadn't seen that Invisibility had been changed. 

For those that didn't either, it now no longer gives cover, but the unit can only be fired at with snapshots and requires a 6 to hit in close combat. 

That's just... wauw. Combine this with Endurance, and a multi-wound unit, and you got a unit that's neigh invincible.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Nordicus said:


> I retract my point about Be'Lakor being useless - I hadn't seen that Invisibility had been changed.
> 
> For those that didn't either, it now no longer gives cover, but the unit can only be fired at with snapshots and requires a 6 to hit in close combat.
> 
> That's just... wauw. Combine this with Endurance, and a multi-wound unit, and you got a unit that's neigh invincible.



Or zarakynel/an'ggrath. With cursed earth nearby.


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## Kalidas (Apr 21, 2014)

Nordicus said:


> I retract my point about Be'Lakor being useless - I hadn't seen that Invisibility had been changed.
> 
> For those that didn't either, it now no longer gives cover, but the unit can only be fired at with snapshots and requires a 6 to hit in close combat.
> 
> That's just... wauw. Combine this with Endurance, and a multi-wound unit, and you got a unit that's neigh invincible.


And now you see why I want to cast it on my Typhus in a unit with Terminators. If I had the points I would love to have the sorcerer cast from Biomancy, and have Ba'Lakor in a secondary detachment with some nurglings casting invisibility. I'm aiming for 1850 points as my sort of "base army" since that is tournament size. Not that I plan on doing many tournaments but it seems to be a good starting point.


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## Kalidas (Apr 21, 2014)

Squire said:


> Is it so important to have a psyker for psychic defence? Seems to me that now psykers are more efficient the fewer you have (1 psyker being optimal, 6 or 7 being too many casters for too few dice). I could be mistaken since I've only read online about the new psychic phase, but an opponent bringing loads of psykers doesn't seem like an intimidating prospect by itself since they'll be fighting over the dice pool rather than all casting like before.
> 
> Again I might be wrong, but isn't it the case for dispel dice you get D6 per turn plus one for every mastery level in your army? I'd sooner defend myself against psychic powers with ablative bodies, or perhaps a vindicator to nuke enemy psykers. You can't dispel a S10 AP2 large blast.


So I was considering what you said and I think you have a good point. So I reevaluated my army idea and yeah maybe I am worrying about the new psychic phase to much. I mean I'm going Nurgle my strength will lie in hard to kill bodies and some nice fire power. Now if I was playing a Tzeench army things would be different, I would do everything I could to dominate the psychic phase. So I looked at my points for the army size I want and I can fit a sorcerer but I can also fit a Vindicator. As you said, there is no denying a S10 AP 2 large blast.


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## Caldria (May 17, 2013)

Something to consider, if you're wanting a Biomancy Sorcerer.

You could make him ML3 (thats 3 additional warp charges)
Role all 3 on biomancy, only Haemorrhage isn't that great - but with 3 rolls, youl have a good chance of getting Iron Arm. You then make sure you take a force staff with the sorcerer. Iron arm makes him S9 AP2 at initiative, with 4 attacks on the charge IIRC. Add potentially Warp Speed or Endurance to that? you've got some crazy awesome offensive potential. Stick him on a bike as well and with endurance he becomes incredibly difficult to kill.

You will also get Smite for free, that gives him some ranged punch as well, 4 S4 AP2 shots aren't bad at all. All those powers, bar Endurance and Haemorrhage are also only 1 WC so more likely to get off.

Just an Idea.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Caldria said:


> Something to consider, if you're wanting a Biomancy Sorcerer.
> 
> You could make him ML3 (thats 3 additional warp charges)
> Role all 3 on biomancy, only Haemorrhage isn't that great - but with 3 rolls, youl have a good chance of getting Iron Arm. You then make sure you take a force staff with the sorcerer. Iron arm makes him S9 AP2 at initiative, with 4 attacks on the charge IIRC. Add potentially Warp Speed or Endurance to that? you've got some crazy awesome offensive potential. Stick him on a bike as well and with endurance he becomes incredibly difficult to kill.
> ...


Very true--hadn't considered that, what with the craze to view Iron Arm as a MC-bonus and little more (though you have to agree: T10 Great Unclean Ones are pretty awesome). Of course, it'd work best with an unmarked sorc, for the most shots at Iron Arm, not Nurgle-marked.


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## Leper Messiah (Mar 9, 2008)

I think I just found my Riptide assassin.


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## Leper Messiah (Mar 9, 2008)

Last night I ran two of these sorcerers (unmarked, staves, ML3, all biomancy) additionally in terminator Armour & spell familiars in 16-man cultist blobs, against 1250 pts of tau. Both rolled iron arm & enfeeble, with one rolling life leech & the other endurance. With limited denying potential of the tau, they were able to cast 2 or 3 powers each a turn and absolutely dominated.
I didn't get to ID force staff the riptide in CC as planned, because enfeeble + life leech took 3W over 2 turns, while some Las shots took the other 2 before I could reach him in CC. 
The other sorc with endurance was stuck unsupported on one half of the board facing half his army (I deployed 1st), but the cultists continued to shrug off wounds with FNP 4+ like they were spawn, & they still reached his gun line & wove havoc. It felt like borderline cheese, but after 2/2 losses to my brother's tau (previously mass outflanking got me torn about by interceptor, 3 shot pulse rifles & eventually overwatch), it was nice to rack up a win. 
This sorc build is definitely recommended. Anyone else tried it out? Ive only tested once and against tau who cant take psykers, but early signs point to :good:


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

Yep I have tried it a lot. The only prob is when you don't get Ironarm then you become a giant waste of points for melee. THOUGH with things like Endurance and Enfeeble being 2 other good options and Haemo being good as well it is very hard to lose out unless you end up with Warpspeed, Haemo and Lifeleech as your 3.

Another point is NEVER underestimate how much damage Ahriman the Biomancer can do. He has a better statline than a normal Sorc (infact he has a lords statline -1WS), comes with a force staff what allows him to cast the same Witchfire power 3 times in a turn. He is LV4 so no real loss of spells. Fearless, 4+ invuln AND inferno bolts in his bolt pistol. This means he can fire 3X Smite for 12 18" S4 AP2 hitting on 2s + any other spells around + his bolt pistol for a couple of AP3 shots as well.
AND to top this all off you arguably get the best Warlord trait in the chaos deck of Master of Deception.
It is just a shame he doesn't get the spell familiar 

So 135 (without familiar) for the LV3 Sorc with 2 wounds, 2 attacks and a 4+ invuln. Or 230 for a fearless version with additional BS / W / A and with a great warlord trait and ability to spam his witchfires


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

The inability to get spell familiar and the dubled up cost makes him inferior to any common sorceror. He can spam powers, true, but can have multiple Perils in a turn! rolling 4 powers in one phase basically assures that you will have a peril, unless you roll only 2 dice at time, still with a big chance of periling... (11% circa)
Personally, i've found extremely effective the DP with biomancy and Biker sorceror with telepathy combo. Invisibility on the DP, while he pumps on biomancy and become a nasty shit to deal with, both with shooting and cc.
The whole biomancy sorc with staff thing is funny, though.


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

neferhet said:


> The inability to get spell familiar and the dubled up cost makes him inferior to any common sorceror. He can spam powers, true, but can have multiple Perils in a turn! rolling 4 powers in one phase basically assures that you will have a peril, unless you roll only 2 dice at time, still with a big chance of periling... (11% circa).


 Well that's the thing, Smite only costs 1 charge, so rolling 2 dice at 75% chance a time 3 times over isn't bad for a 12 shots of 2+hits 4+wounds TEQ killer. And he generates 4 of those dice himself 
The main parts though were the added extras of him like the nice Warlord Trait, Fearless and slightly better statline so you don't die in 2 wounds


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

yes, fearless and better statline (with infiltrate) is good. To rely on smite, instead...
seriously, if we really need so many ap2 shots, better go with draznicht ravagers, full plasma. Less cost, no instagibbed, more reliable on dishing out pain.
this said, he could deserve a test roll, maybe for a full telepathy (3 screams...hell yeah!)


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

neferhet said:


> this said, he could deserve a test roll, maybe for a full telepathy (3 screams...hell yeah!)


 Need to be female conversion of Ahriman who can Nag people to death


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## Craglansun (Jul 19, 2014)

I love this idea! Going to try it tonight (vs. Ultramarines)
Warp speed has its uses too though. Issue a challenge, strike at higher initiative, and watch the wounds roll over to the rest of the combatants. Could be fun!


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

It's nice if you get Iron Arm as well, otherwise armour saves eat ya.


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

with a good number of attacks 3+ saves are going to fail...it's a gamble, but can work even without iron arm (?)


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

It is more the 2+ saves I worry about


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