# *sigh* WoC got bombed in this edition



## yshabash (Apr 11, 2010)

well its official, the guy who made 8th edition has something aignst WoC.

our scout units are useless, knights not as good, everything got worse except for mauraders (who no one likes). even the marks got bombed. if we don't get a new codex soon its going to really suck. and W0C are the 3rd of 4th last onse to get a codex! then we'll have 2 months before another edition comes. *sigh*


----------



## Gigantor (Jun 21, 2009)

Really? With In 5 and fighting in In order, I do pretty well. Tz sorcerer lords kick some serious ass too!! I agree that most builds are similar and maybe they aren't top tier like they used to be, but I find my army still very competitive. I may have had to put my knights on the shelf and paint 40 marauders, but the rest of my army is similar to what it was like before.

Clearly you disagree with me, so I'm curious to how you feel that chaos warriors got worse. Also, why do you think that chaos ogres and the hell cannon are any different than before?


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

[/COLOR]


yshabash said:


> well its official, the guy who made 8th edition has something aignst WoC.
> What the hell are you talking about? Postulating something like this really demands an explanation. Like the one I will give you as I postulate that you couldn't be more wrong even if you were born on the wrong side of the tracks thinking: "There's no such thing as right or wrong. Only perspective." Which is a statement I would normally agree with, but since even a statement such as that depends on the perspective you clearly must be a wrongly, wrong wrongert. Whatever that is.
> 
> our scout units are useless,
> ...


Maybe I'm a little slow, but what makes you so certain of that? And you do realise that books made just before a new edition is geared towards play in this new ruleset don't you?


----------



## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH said:


> [/COLOR]
> Maybe I'm a little slow, but what makes you so certain of that? And you do realise that books made just before a new edition is geared towards play in this new ruleset don't you?


Which makes it all the more funny that the skaven book has the largest FAQ  Just one of those things I guess.

Meanwhile, I play Cav heavy bretonnians... they certainly got a kick in the nuts.

Ah well, warmachine is taking up most of my time just now anyway.


----------



## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

really?
l have had 27 games and only 2 lost and that was with my joke army,
WoC is still really good due to Warriors being OP as hell sure there is not a lot of units as before but that is only if you play a "l must win army" if you are having fun that all that counts.


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

That's just because GW are terrible at that foreign language. What's it's name, oh right! English.

Proof of my statement would more likely be that Skaven are really powerful in 8th. At least my DE have trouble everytime I face them. But thne again, one of the Skaven players I know is really into shady rules interpretations, and guilt tripping me when I don't share his views. 
Kinda annoying as he otherwise is a pretty standup guy. But one day, I will kick him in the nuts for it. Patience is not a virtue in my world.


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Oh, look, a troll thread. How refreshing.

Everything OP says is utter rubbish, its just the point of view of the "I was told how to win in the previous edition and I lulzpwnt everyone (read: every little kid I came across) but now my sage buddy isn't with me so BAAAWWW I CAN'T WIN ON MY OWN!!! ;_;" type of player. I can only hope Darwin is coming for these pansies. Pfft.

I'll go over to the other WTFWoC thread now.


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

WoC didn't get picked on especially.. and can still be very effective. Some other armies really got a good toasting while others just got radically changed in how you have to play them: ogres and WE especially. Sometimes this is for the good and sometimes for the bad: I love the way my WE can now play (would have been a bit bored in the old rules) but I really dont like the disapearance of MSU from ogres (have to rely on big blocks which scare the pants off everyone... but aren't that hard to deal with).

WoC have certainly changed. All the cav can no-longer be used in the same way to the same effect (having a cheap unit of 5 knights and expecting them to just mash through an enemy army will no longer work)... instead you need to start thinking carefully about what you are taking, how its going to be used and how it will interact with the rest of your army... the word I'm really searching for here is 'Tactics'.


----------



## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Agreed with T/S this thread has been started by a person who has no idea, can't use and has never seen tactics, evidnetally a I want to and have to win at all costs player with my army and if not I'll cry and whinge about it!


----------



## FATHER NURGLE (Oct 10, 2009)

Blue Liger said:


> Agreed with T/S this thread has been started by a person who has no idea, can't use and has never seen tactics, evidnetally a I want to and have to win at all costs player with my army and if not I'll cry and whinge about it!


i Agree With your anser & the one befor he.. he.. :suicide:


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I love being brought up under a rock. It gives me a happy feeling to spout water from the retard fountain.


----------



## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

WoCs are amazing. How did they get bombed?

marks are generally better now as people are in larger units, khornate units are more controllable, MoT units are even harder to shift. MoN units remain the same. The only thing you can't do now is GW warriors, which isn't a great loss.

Knights are still super killy you just need to think about who to charge before you charge across the field

Magic wise MoT sorcerers are deadly with up to +5 to cast

Monsters such as ogres and DO, as well as giants and DOS are a tonne better, and you actually think about including them now. 

Hellcannons hit stuff now. 

Still can't see the problem. You just need synergy and tactics now


----------



## Sarge1447 (May 11, 2010)

Barnster said:


> Still can't see the problem. You just need synergy and tactics now


...I do believe that IS the problem the OP has, and you see it quite clearly
But yeah, WoC are an even scarier army to face now, what with their bazillion attacks MoK halberd guys, and their knights are just as good they just won't instantbreak any unit in the enemy army, and their +infinity to cast MoT sorcerers, and whatnot. There is no other army in the game with a core choice as rediculous as WoC. Most army's specials and even rares aren't as amazing in combat as a good ol' warrior.


----------



## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> WoC have certainly changed. All the cav can no-longer be used in the same way to the same effect (having a cheap unit of 5 knights and expecting them to just mash through an enemy army will no longer work)...


Yeah that was the only problem I had at first with the new edition as I ran a cav heavy WoC list before. However, I only had to drop one unit of knights and that allowed me to put a large block of Tzeentch Chosen in the army. Oh and for the record:

Tzeentch Chosen = lawnmowers
90% everything else = grass

Even the basic chaos warrior is stupidly good now and 8th has made them into the uber killers they are touted as in the armybook. Warriors are hands down better than just about any other core choice in the game and are absolutely devastating from the off, making most armies special choices look like Jerry's Kids in general. The ability of having a 5+ save in cc with the MoT is absolutely priceless as well.

Hellcannons are also death on wheels now with the no partials rule. Yes you can deviate off with them but barring a shit deviation roll they do MASSIVE amounts of damage to the enemy and have become one of the must have units in the book.

So I agree that the OP is very much in the wrong here, 8th ed has made WoC absolutely brutal now.


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

This kind of more seems like "7th ed was so good to us WoC, what with instagibbing the front rank before anyone could attack back, and lawling through his whole army." I have won every game I have played with WoC this ed. I have only seen them lose once to a dedicated dwarfen gunline this edition. But everyone loses to those. 

Everyone is right, they havent been nerfed. They have changed, just because you dont have the ability to adapt your playstyle, hardly means they suck.


----------



## bishop5 (Jan 28, 2008)

Loving my Dwarfs. Although my VC got nailed pretty hard.


----------



## Wasabi (Aug 24, 2010)

I've played VC, O&G and WoC in 8th. I had VC in 7th when they were god mode, but when 8th came I sold the army real fast. Now I will go on the record and say it's because of the army composition nerf and also the insane fear nerf but let me explain. When I bought VC it's because I wanted to play a vampire army, not a skeleton/zombie army. I loved being able to take 3 Vampires and I would've still played the army even if they capped at 12 PD/DD but still allowed me to have more than 1 vampire. I didn't care that they had godlike magic phases, I just loved the idea of being able to actually play with vampires and not just generic undead overpriced garbage. I would've been happy playing the army if it was actually composed of, you know, actual vampires.

Anyway, that rant is done. As far as O&G I just have 1 word, Animosity. That ruined the army entirely for me. I love their characters, the fluff, the models and the hilarious russian roulette play style but Animosity brakes the army completely. Here's hoping Jeremy writes a proper book seeing as how he has like 11k points worth of O&G, a true fan of the army.

Now for WoC.. it's interesting the way my buddies and I played in 7th. We always played with Step Up, even though it didn't exist, so there wasn't a big change going into 8th as far as close combat goes, except for charging only giving +1 CR instead of a first strike advantage, which is one change that I think sucks hard (stupid HE! cheap OP bastards with ASF + Hatred). Outside of that, their magic is absolutely insane! I will never take a list without a Lvl 4 Tzeentch Sorc... I might try Nurgle at some point, but Tzeentch all the way! It's too bad knights aren't as good anymore, because I really really love the models but for the points I'd honestly rather have more Warriors. All in all, unless you play like a tard, it's extremely hard to lose with WoC. 

I've lost plenty with WoC but that's because I was making lists that were intentionally bad design so I could see what each unit was really capable of. It's my favourite way of testing their strengths and weaknesses quickly. Saturday was my first victory against HE because I was finally able to make a good solid list with all of the testing I had done previously. HE just had no chance and I didn't even roll well. Learn to play the army properly in this edition and you won't have many problems (aside from Dorfs). Just do what I did, make lists with impossible odds, see what happens, learn from it and you'll be able to adapt in most situations.


----------



## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

Warriors of Chaos are one of the best armies in the game right now (2nd best in my opinion, right behind Skaven). It's true that Chaos Knights don't work as well, but that goes for all heavy cavalry in all armies. Everything else in the book got a LOT more powerful.

Nobody likes marauders? Everyone loves them. In fact, they're quickly becoming the most overly used unit in the entire game.

I'm sorry, but if you can't make giant blocks of marauders, backed up by Tzeentch lords/heroes, work for you, then you have no clue how to play the game.


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

mynameisgrax said:


> I'm sorry, but if you can't make giant blocks of marauders, backed up by Tzeentch lords/heroes, work for you, then you have no clue and/or interest how to play the game.


I just thought I'd add another dimension to the statement, with which I wholehartedly agree, even in its unmodified form.

The only part I don't get is WoC being the second best behind Skaven. Please tell me how do you get past a dedicated Empire gunline with Lore of Fire, Metal and Life and 1-2 Steam Tanks. Or a Dwarven gunline, which will dispell 3/4 of your spells. Or High Elves. Assuming your opponent is on the same skill level as you are.


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Khorothis said:


> The only part I don't get is WoC being the second best behind Skaven. Please tell me how do you get past a dedicated Empire gunline with Lore of Fire, Metal and Life and 1-2 Steam Tanks. Or a Dwarven gunline, which will dispell 3/4 of your spells. Or High Elves. Assuming your opponent is on the same skill level as you are.


I play with Wulfrik the Wanderer with 40 Khorne Marauders, and two Hellcannons, while the rest of my army hides behind a hill and snipes with Gateway and Treason.

Steam Tanks are made of 100% pure unadulterated overpoweredness. We know this already. So is Teclis. If we assume that people have a house rule not to field 2 Stanks or Teclis then I agree that Chaos is probably second most powerful. At the very least it's in the top 5.


----------



## Wasabi (Aug 24, 2010)

Right now my cousin is REALLY pushing to start playing 2k point games so he can field Teclis but I've refused completely. Lore of Metal + Teclis vs WoC = a bad time, first turn win for him. If we had some way of sniping Teclis outside of spells, it'd be a different matter, especially if I got to go first. But as it stands, I can't find a single counter to Teclis short of playing my O&G with 100 Doom Divers and winning the dice roll to go first and hope I roll Hits on all of them.


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Lore of death? Though his unit normall has magic res 8 million. Thats just not fun, I would politely agree, with the stipulation no lore of metal. The new lores are just lame. When I play, even friendly games at my FLGS, I always ask to see my opponents list, so I know what lore they took. Nothing like face fire vs your orcs, then the next week, he plays the same list except now its lore of metal against your Brets.


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Just agree on no Teclis, he is utterly broken and can just ruin the game. If you dont get this agreement agree to only play up to 1899pt games.
There's also a rules argument you can make against Teclis- having fun is part of the game... and it is no fun at all to play against him.


----------



## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

Empire is definitely in the top 5, but I think they're a little too fragile in close combat (apart from the cheesy steam tank) to be any better than that. Here's my top 5:

1. Skaven
2. Warriors of Chaos
3. High Elves (without Teclis, it'd drop to 5th or 6th)
4. Lizardmen
5. Empire

The bottom 4 are definitely:

12. Orcs and Goblins (because of animosity)
13. Tomb Kings 
14. Bretonnians 
15. Wood Elves 

6-11 I'm not sure. The remaining armies: dark elves, dwarves, ogre kingdoms, beastmen, Vampire Counts, and Chaos Daemons. They're all about equally good. 

One thing to note is that unlike 40k or the last edition, all of the armies are definitely viable now. You can definitely win with any army.


----------



## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

mynameisgrax said:


> 3. High Elves (without Teclis, it'd drop to 5th or 6th)


I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Large blocks of spearelves that always strike first AND get rerolls to hit against 95% of all units is somkething no other army can boast. Back them up with some flank protection, RBTs and a BoH Mage and you've got a rediculously cheesy army that will win games. I think HE sit normally at 3 or 4, and with Teclis shoot up to number 1 hands down.



Wasabi said:


> Right now my cousin is REALLY pushing to start playing 2k point games so he can field Teclis but I've refused completely.


The fact that your friend is trying to get you to let him play Teclis against is funny to me. I would never, ever do that to my friends. The only time I ever use Teclis is in official tournaments when I want to minimize the margin of me losing. Even then, I don't use him that often.

Oh, and WoC did not get bombed at all. They're still nasty on the tabletop, they just require 5% more effort to win now.


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I would agree with most of that... but not O&G or lizards

I think O&G they are one of the better armies out there atm (mebbe not top5, but close). Their magic defense can easily be made into the 2nd best in the game after dwarves (and offensive aint bad either- especailly with their own miscast tables). Cheap units, cheap characters and cheap warmachines make O&G pretty nasty... animosity is still a total pain but at least you can get some cheap BO bosses into your most important units to reduce the problem.

Meanwhile I dont think much of the newer lizard lists: stegs have been nerfed pretty badly (especially EotG) since a single template hit can kill everything except the steg (and a cannon can get him too) and temple guard are pretty poor now without access to their shields (bye bye terminator unit) so are no longer near impossible to kill. Sure sallies are really cool but I dont think it makes up for the -ves (my opinion isnt helped by most of my local players not really changing their army lists from 7th to 8th.... very bad idea).


----------



## Cheese meister (Jun 5, 2010)

to be honest teclis is starting to get banned at most tournys now winter incusion by maelstrom have said no book of hoeth, power scroll or named character. Along with a 12 pd per phase cap


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Epic fail, they banned items? Thats just ridiculous, if people dont have the balls to play a list with that stuff, dont go to the tourney.


----------



## Cheese meister (Jun 5, 2010)

they banned the items because they are overpowering i would play against them but a lv4 wizard would munch through my army with book of hoeth and lore of metal meaning i would have to hope and pray for the 12th result on eye of the gods to live


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

So? Just like a unit of khornate WoC with halberds munches through my army, and I have to pray for good de-buffs getting cast. The same is true for a hundred other examples. 

I just think its a stupid idea.


----------



## Cheese meister (Jun 5, 2010)

the thing is the character with a book goes oh look cast a spell oh and again and again hahaha nothing you can do where as warriors of chaos can be dealt with just requires a bit of luck and i think a few tourny's might start doing it like at 1 point when thorek was banned from tourny's


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

He shouldnt have been either. People need to nut up or shut up, and stop crying broken/cheese whenever something is tough.


----------



## Cheese meister (Jun 5, 2010)

i will play these things but the tournament organisers have decided they are to hard for the tournament these are guys that used to work for gw and could speak to mark wells and the head of the studio at the drop of a hat ie people that know what they are on about


----------



## Wasabi (Aug 24, 2010)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> He shouldnt have been either. People need to nut up or shut up, and stop crying broken/cheese whenever something is tough.


I'm quite sure you know the game and armies well, so please don't take this as a personal attack. Teclis has an uncontrollable magic phase from his opponent. He can throw 6 dice at Purple Sun or whatever spell he wants without fear or worry. It's not so much that he can do it every turn without worry, the problem is that spells have become so stupidly powerful that he makes them that much more dangerous, to the point where there's nothing anyone can do. It really is unfair. 

If spells weren't as potent as they are, if there was more balance to magic then yes he'd be tolerable, but as it stands he is 100% completely broken because of GW going balls deep crazy with spell potency. Other lvl 4 casters get access to the same spells and the same potential IF, but it's few and far between and it always comes with a price. He doesn't. Hate us "whiners" all you want, but the fact is that when he's used in conjunction with the 8th spell lists, there's good reason to fight against allowing him.


----------



## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

l do believe they should just do what they do in 40K

No special char of any kind

which means you can only take a normal lord/hero as almost every HE player l see never takes a normal lord it is always teclis/the other melee hero

as for items there fine as they do cost alot of points


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Sybarite's suggestion I like, but no matter how "broken" Dont drop one character or just one item. Its ridiculous.


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> Sybarite's suggestion I like, but no matter how "broken" Dont drop one character or just one item. Its ridiculous.


Or a desperate counter-measure to make dominated tourneys more fair? I'm not arguing, I share your opinion, if with a little less steam.


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

sybarite said:


> l do believe they should just do what they do in 40K
> 
> No special char of any kind
> 
> ...


Since when is that rule in 40K? In fact, all the Special Characters are becoming part of the army list. They are becoming more included, not excluded.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> He shouldnt have been either. People need to nut up or shut up, and stop crying broken/cheese whenever something is tough.


I'll ask you to take your foot out of your mouth to say "my bad" when you get raped by an Elven Gunline containing Teclis with Lore of Metal and another with Lore of Metal and Book of Hoeth.

Personally, in a tournament, I find that that the army itself doesn't do too badly against Lore of Metal. I run trolls and Dragon Ogres.

This means that only Galrauch (3+, 6 Wounds), Dragon Ogres (4+, 4x4 wounds, 3 units), and Warshrines (4+, 3 shrines, but has a 3+ ward) suffer against him (as well as the BSB and Sorceror, but I have a Dispel Scroll and immunity to magic attacks).

Lore Spells versus my army
Searing Doom - only really of effect against Galrauch, and an average 7 hits on 20+ wounding on 3's will result in 4-5 wounds - leaving him alive - he does have a 6+ Ward Save as well which has on occasion saved my bacon - along with also doubling up with a potential 3+ Ward Save from the shrines.
Plague of Rust - against all my units, only makes them stronger and more likely to last, funnily enough. Can only hope my opponent is stupid enough to use it.
Blades of Aiban - +1 to hit, Magical, AP attacks - well, trolls are low WS, Magical, got no ethereals, and AP, well, trolls have no armour to speak of.
Glittering Robe - 5+ AS - my basic Strength is 5, so it's negated anyway, and I have Lore of Tzeentch as my only ranged attacks, so he'd be stupid to waste dice. See Plague of Rust my opinion. 
Golden Hounds - D6 hits against one model - not too fussed. I have enough multiwound models which leaves only Throgg, BSB and Sorceror as eligible targets. With Throgg doubling up as a semi BSB, that's not as much of an issue, and Throgg is immune to their attacks as he has no armour, so flaming doesn't negate 4+ Regen. Sorceror is immune to flaming attacks - go figure.
Transmutation of lead - I'm WS3 or WS4 at most. Against elite units, I'm hitting on 4's mostly anyway. Ballistic skill, lol, I'm chaos. Shooting, what? Armour Save? Only effects BSB, Dragon Ogres, Warshrine, and Galrauch as targets - Galrauch is a dragon, -1 WS won't make that much difference as he can terrorise, and is still WS5, plus has 3 breath attacks. 4+ Armour Save only makes him harder to dominate.
Final Transmutation - yes, this is annoying. But then again, my entire army is only affected by it on a 6 due to multiple wound. Stupidity? Eh, I have Banner, and Ld9 from Galrauch.

The Lore I don't like is Shadows, Fire or Death - Shadows is useful, but only against certain armies - I don't know people who build armies centred around it. Fire, obvious reasons, and Death, well who does like being on the point end of Death?


----------



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

An Elven "gunline" Doesnt bother me. And I never said the combo or Teclis wasnt powerful. I just think its stupid to remove it. I have lost to teclis many times this edition. Still, I think its stupid to remove something that is powerful. It sets an annoying precendent, so they will just keep removing "powerful" Things.


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> An Elven "gunline" Doesnt bother me. And I never said the combo or Teclis wasnt powerful. I just think its stupid to remove it. I have lost to teclis many times this edition. Still, I think its stupid to remove something that is powerful. It sets an annoying precendent, so they will just keep removing "powerful" Things.


You don't seem to perceive the difference between "Powerful" and "So stupidly overpowered it makes me cry out to the heavens as to what, exactly, was going through the FAQ Writers head when he decided to make a decision on this unit entry, because it sure as hell wasn't based on any form of logic known to man, and sure as hell wasn't either playtested or even proof-read by someone who had actually read the main rulebook or played High Elves".

And if you can't tell the difference between the two, there's not a lot of point arguing with you.

On which note, wasn't this a "Chaos Warriors" topic, and not a "Teclis" topic anyway?


----------



## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Ok, we've gone far off topic and I think we've run our path on topic as well... I think its about time this thread was closed.


----------

