# Is Casshern Goto Canon?



## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

I'm sure I'm going to get alot of insults for this, probably called an idiot in at least 5 diffrent languages if not more but I must ask the question.

Can the works of Casshern Sebastian Goto be considered canon?

For those who are lucky enough not to know who this man is, he is a former Black Library... I hesitate to use the word writer, who, shall we say spewed several books forth to be sold on bookstore shelves, featuring the Dawn of War Series, Deathwatch, and Several Eldar books.

Normally this would not be a bad thing, but simply put, these books are atroticous, they are incredibly amusing. To laugh at. 

But, unfortunately, according to GW, everything made by Black Library, even the abortion of modern literature that Goto created is considered "canon".

So in other words, straight from his own books, these "facts" are considered canon, since Goto wrote about them.

According to Goto;
Multilazers are equipped on Razorbacks and Landraiders. 

Multilazers as the basic and primary weapon of all Space Marines, not Bolters. Everyone knows this, Goto said so.

Multilazers are also the primary weapon of Tyranid Carnifexes, somehow.

A rhino can maaaagically change into a Razorback and back into a Landraider because the author was drunk and the editor was blind.

An Eldar Falcon grav-tank can literally be destroyed by thrown sticks and stones. From children, unagmented human children, it's no wonder they had their empire collapse! Extinction would be a blessing.

Eldar, being much smarter than that use the far, far superior human technology of the Rhino as their primary transport. And when forced to use their own inferior tanks, the eldar use the built in platforms built on them, to surf. Not ride IN the tank like a crazy person, oh no, no no, they ride on TOP of the tank, where it's much safer.

Eldar D-cannons do not do the considerably cooler and actually accurate thing where they teleport out peices of things, making a hole appear ala Wile E Coyote. No! Goto says they fire bullets, and so fire bullets they do, since this is GW canon and what GW says in their blanket statements goes, D weapons fire bullets, and anyone who says otherwise is wrong.

Terminators, in their extremly heavy armor that is so heavy it prevents them from moving fast enough to sweeping advance on the tabletop are clearly agile enough to do backflips in them. Goto said so.

Apparently Kasrkin and Terminators can become BFFs, yeah none of that radically diffrent outlooks on life and altered human psyches, Spacemarines are really just great bowling buddies who like to drink beer and take their freinds for rides in the magical Razorback that turns into a Landraider.

Also according to Goto, aspect warriors do not in fact own their own armor. They just borrow it for those teenage years where they go nuts and develop permanent split personalities honed toward war, then they turn it in when they grow up, keeping the helmet as a momento of their foolish adventures. Silly Eldar!

Also, according to Goto, no one can ever have a Biel-Tan army and field their own Avatar, because he's dead, and hasn't had his sword in 3000 years. Goto said so, and Black Library bought it, so it must be true. Not that they have an editor that didn't care and just rushed the book through, nah.

Khorne has sorcerors. No seriously, he doesnt ACTUALLY hate psykers, sorcerers and everything they stand for! It's all just a big wacky misunderstanding.

Eldrad, the Seer Council of Ulthwe and Leith all worship Slaanesh. Yeah, really, that Eldrad, what a great guy, being so forgiving and worshiping the gigantica and monstrous daemon god who is slowly consuming the souls of and ensuring the entire extinction of his race. Wow, that does seem sort of contradictory don't it?

Apparently a Harelequin is not one individual worshipping the Eldar Laughing god, no, a Harlequin must be a traveling troupe, because every single fight between a with even one and a space marine ends up with the Harlequin becoming a quote, "Mutilated pile of bodies."

Also, apparently Necrons, renowned for being an entirely silent and emotionless army, bray, just like Tyranids do. Is this sort of like that red on rice thing? We already know Necrons dont bray, since Tyranids don't either- oh, what? Goto said so? Oh, fuck, well, guess it's canon then.

Also apparently all female Eldar are continually raped, killed and tortured, not necessarily in that order, little eldar girls too. Also, apparently Farseers are fat child molesting Slanneshi. One farseer (woman of course) gets tortured for about 180 pages or so. Stay classy Casshern.

Now, I am quite certain someone will come up to me and say It's canon because GW said so, and I suppose, legally it is. Luckily a good chunk of this has been fixed by Gav Thorpe, who cleaned up the messes Goto made, but, this is of course, just the tip of the iceberg of bad writing by good old C.S.

The fact is this stuff is a joke, and even Goto said himself in an interveiw, saw it as humor (the type of humor where one laughs at the person who told the joke because he did it so ineptly as to be humorous, but I digress.) I am sure that I will probably annoy plenty of you, coming off as abrasive and arrogant, which I probably am. But the fact is, having gotten in enough arguments about it already. So please, if you've managed to survive my venom for this man's writing, I would like your take on the subject.

If you still want to inform me that I am a delusional idiot, I can't stop you, but if it was the venom and sarcasm that offended, I apologize. I also will add I have no vitriol for Goto as a human being, seeing as I don't personally know him, but his writing I do know, and sweet Jesus is it Godawful. In fact, considering his statements in the interveiw, I think even he knows how bad his writing is, and has managed to veer hard left into the realm of self parody. Considering the fact he is fairly witty and even *gasp* intellegent, writing his own books he could be sucessful with a good editor, but playing in someone else's sandbox, he just turns into the kid who hides his poop in there.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

40k's canon policy is essentially _"everything and nothing."_ You can take whatever the hell you want as canon (a lot of people seem to ignore Goto), but for purposes of discussion _everything_ must be considered canon.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I don't think you can consider his books canon as they're just so radically different (read wrong) from the established lore. 

That said, there was one bit in there that's right. The Aspect armour bit. It's true that each aspect warrior is only 'borrowing' the suit from the shrine while they are a student of it. They don't wear it all the time and give it back after their time with the aspect is done. It part of the path system and how the eldar control their psyche using a 'war mask'; adopting a different persona for war fare.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Isn't Goto Ward?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Isn't Goto Ward?


Nah, Ward writes good rules and mediocre fluff, and thusly has redeeming features. Goto just spews out crap.

Midnight


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Gotto did give us Ahrimans greatest ever quote so 1 redeemining feature, Just don't ever talk about eldar prohecy that never happened i never wasted part of my finite life span on that dribble


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

Reads the post....

No it isn't.

Even if it is.... it isn't.

Come on, multilazers? Carnifexes with multilazers?
When i write my book, i'll let someone check it over, looking up all the spell mistakes and boobos that is destined to be there.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Klomster said:


> Reads the post....
> 
> No it isn't.
> 
> ...


The problem with that is that is with Goto he'd have to re-write the whole book.

Also I had heard Goto was a pen-name for Ward, but I didn't put stock in it.

Unfortunately, the statement of it being "Canon is what you choose to be correct" doesn't help in an argument.

I did hear a rather helpful one however. Just because it's canon doesn't mean it's TRUE, so for all we know the writings of Goto are in fact the insane ramblings of some Imperial Madman that the Inquisition supressed. I hope.

Either way I am making a Servitor named Casshern and saying that he was the rambler so I can bury this argument.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Ok.....wtf is a multilaser/zer?


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

locustgate said:


> Ok.....wtf is a multilaser/zer?


Aside from somthing that greatly pleases Goto, they are the lasgun equivalent of a hurricane bolter, exclusively mounted on VEHICLES used only by the IMPERIAL GUARD. Which is to say, on the tabletop, spacemarines and tyranids NEVER, EVER EVER use them. Ever.
Have I mentioned the writings of this man piss me off?


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> Multilazers as the basic and primary weapon of all Space Marines, not Bolters. Everyone knows this, Goto said so.
> 
> Multilazers are also the primary weapon of Tyranid Carnifexes, somehow.
> 
> Terminators, in their extremly heavy armor that is so heavy it prevents them from moving fast enough to sweeping advance on the tabletop are clearly agile enough to do backflips in them. Goto said so.


so in his books, the standard marine weapon is a "multilaser" not a bolter?
really?


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## Bionic-Weasel (Jul 10, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> so in his books, the standard marine weapon is a "multilaser" not a bolter?
> really?


Khornate Sorcerers.


I'll let you mull over whether you consider your question is true or false in light of the above.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> so in his books, the standard marine weapon is a "multilaser" not a bolter?
> really?


Personally I find it funny that you glide completely over the fact that he had a Carnifex armed with them, the backflipping terminator and go straight to that.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Ahem. BL publishes it. It`s canon. 

However, it is up to reader discretion just how seriously to take these books. For example, I do not put much faith in his portrayal of the Harlequin Solitaire. 

This is supposedly the most badass single eldar there is, yet Ahriman kills him without breaking sweat. I know it`s fucking Ahriman, but still... :dunno: 


However, the answer to the original question remains yes.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> Aside from somthing that greatly pleases Goto, they are the lasgun equivalent of a hurricane bolter, exclusively mounted on VEHICLES used only by the IMPERIAL GUARD.


Um, actually, no, they are also used on stationary turrets.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Ahem. BL publishes it. It`s canon.


Anything BL publishes, BL can retcon.


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## Klomster (Oct 9, 2008)

Stationary turrets can be counted as vehicles.

The fact that alot of the 40k turrets are either dropped in or are portable (or both) pretty much makes the vehicles.

I'm gonna go with the rambling theory.

Backflipping terminators? With multilazors.... ramblings.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I don't think that the Solitaire is the single most badass Eldar - aren't there quite a few of them guarding the Black Library? I thought that they were simply the best amongst the Harlequins, and the ones who play the part of She Who Thirsts.

Midnight


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> Personally I find it funny that you glide completely over the fact that he had a Carnifex armed with them, the backflipping terminator and go straight to that.


I find it funny that you don't seem to recognize a rhetorical question


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> Ahem. BL publishes it. It`s canon.
> However, it is up to reader discretion just how seriously to take these books. For example, I do not put much faith in his portrayal of the Harlequin Solitaire.
> This is supposedly the most badass single eldar there is, yet Ahriman kills him without breaking sweat. I know it`s fucking Ahriman, but still...
> However, the answer to the original question remains yes.


But since it is Canon, I still ask, does that mean it's true? I mean other than the actual fact-facts most of the Imperial Guardsman's Uplifting Primer is complete bullshit and propaganda, so why not apply the same idea to Goto and say it's Gabriel Angelos having a REALLY bad trip or somthing?

And Malus, damn right, Hell at this rate I'd get relic on the phone ask their permission and a bit of info (so, y'know, I can actually be IN CONTACT with the people who first designed them) and write a whole goddamn novel series myself!

And Klomster is right, I meant vehicles in game terms, sorry for not saying so specifically >.<



MontytheMighty said:


> I find it funny that you don't seem to recognize a rhetorical question


No need to be nasty man.


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

My friend gave me Goto to read when I was first started getting into the game. I kept second-guessing myself as I read since would run across something that didn't sound quite right and wonder if I had just misremembered something from the codices, BRB, or other BL fiction. 

I consider everything that BL writes as canon, for a given value of canon. For example, the Ciaphias Cain books are basically selective memoirs compiled by an inquisitor. The involvement of the Inquisition should already be a warning flag that things are not quite what they seem. And the value of these books as canon are not as high as say, a codex.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Dicrel Seijin said:


> My friend gave me Goto to read when I was first started getting into the game. I kept second-guessing myself as I read since would run across something that didn't sound quite right and wonder if I had just misremembered something from the codices, BRB, or other BL fiction.


You have my condolences, no one should have to go through that...



Dicrel Seijin said:


> I consider everything that BL writes as canon, for a given value of canon. For example, the Ciaphias Cain books are basically selective memoirs compiled by an inquisitor. The involvement of the Inquisition should already be a warning flag that things are not quite what they seem. And the value of these books as canon are not as high as say, a codex.


Then where precicsely do you rate the books of Goto? I'm genuinely curious.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

He wrote a decent short story about the Mantis warriors if I recall correctly.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> He wrote a decent short story about the Mantis warriors if I recall correctly.


...that acted as the forefront to a terrible book about the Deathwatch.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

The way I personally go about Goto fluff is to consider it canon in only the broadest sense of the events depicted. For example, I take it as canon that there were Necrons on Rahe's Paradise and thus the planet had to be destroyed, but I ignore things like the tank surfing Exarchs and Eldar getting punked by a bunch of kids with sticks.


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> You have my condolences, no one should have to go through that...
> 
> 
> Then where precicsely do you rate the books of Goto? I'm genuinely curious.


Thank you for that--my friend is unrepentant. He still thinks it's hilarious.

As to where I rate Goto, of the books that I've read (DoW Blood Ravens), I rate them low as a 40K player. The experience of reading his books was odd as every now and again, I'd ask myself, "Wait, is that right?" Interrupting my suspension of disbelief and immersion into a novel is for me unforgivable, especially if it's by the author. 

If I didn't know anything about 40K, I'll be honest, I'd probably enjoy his books, since it's not as if the writing style is bad. He is rather readable (the Cain books are the only ones I've read faster).


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> But since it is Canon, I still ask, does that mean it's true? I mean other than the actual fact-facts most of the Imperial Guardsman's Uplifting Primer is complete bullshit and propaganda, so why not apply the same idea to Goto and say it's Gabriel Angelos having a REALLY bad trip or somthing?
> 
> And Malus, damn right, Hell at this rate I'd get relic on the phone ask their permission and a bit of info (so, y'know, I can actually be IN CONTACT with the people who first designed them) and write a whole goddamn novel series myself!


You`re comparing a *serious* novel to what is essentially a propaganda manual. 



Nicholas Hadrian said:


> No need to be nasty man.


That`s just Malus being Malus.  



Dicrel Seijin said:


> My friend gave me Goto to read when I was first started getting into the game. I kept second-guessing myself as I read since would run across something that didn't sound quite right and wonder if I had just misremembered something from the codices, BRB, or other BL fiction.
> 
> I consider everything that BL writes as canon, for a given value of canon. For example, the Ciaphias Cain books are basically selective memoirs compiled by an inquisitor. The involvement of the Inquisition should already be a warning flag that things are not quite what they seem. And the value of these books as canon are not as high as say, a codex.


The writers are given permissions as to how much they can manipulate the lore. Which means someone at BL or GW is evidently on crack or something. For canon purposes, I would rate BL on par with a codex. It is all sanctioned by GW, so it all counts. 



Chompy Bits said:


> The way I personally go about Goto fluff is to consider it canon in only the broadest sense of the events depicted. For example, I take it as canon that there were Necrons on Rahe's Paradise and thus the planet had to be destroyed, but I ignore things like the tank surfing Exarchs and Eldar getting punked by a bunch of kids with sticks.


:laugh: I forgot about that bit. I just figured the eldar were caught off guard fom laughing so hard. Nowhere does it say otherwise. :biggrin:


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> :laugh: I forgot about that bit. I just figured the eldar were caught off guard fom laughing so hard. Nowhere does it say otherwise. :biggrin:


What you don't know is that they were actually being distracted by a break dancing terminator.:crazy:


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

This thread actually makes me want to buy and read a Goto book purely for the humour.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Chompy Bits said:


> What you don't know is that they were actually being distracted by a break dancing terminator.:crazy:


Heh. picture it, a terminator doing handstands with the help of a kasrkin.

To be entirely honest, I could personally completely ignore Goto if it wasn't for one thing.

He had the gall to write about someone else's creation (the Blood Ravens) without inside knowledge about them or the creation process sticking them with a backstory they cannot logically follow, but are stuck with because GW said everything Black Library puts out is canon, no exceptions.
THAT is what Goto did that pisses me off the most. And once again, that is why I wish I could throw Goto's writings out the window.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I had heard that some of his work was 'Iffy" so to this point I have not read any of it. By the sound of it is seems like Inquisition war by Ian Watson. Admittedly his was written some time ago which explains some of the fluff holes.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

_Inquisition War_ though is just old. Everything in it was accurate at the time. Goto's by comparison was wrong when he was writing. Besides there's not much in _Inquisition War_ that is outright wrong. I actually rather like Watson's take on 40k, its fantastically gothic and grim dark. It's a much more unsettling, alien setting that the current depictions of 40k.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Hmm, _Inquisiton War_ sounds like a good read.
Also, it just occured to me, if the events of a more recently published Relic Dawn of War game show somthing contrary the depictions in the Goto books, does that mean that they invalidate what Goto wrote? Much in like how gav Thorpe had to go back and specifically state the mistakes Goto made were in fact mistakes?


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

It's not so much an issue of one piece of fluff cancelling out another or this being more canon than that. It's down to the reader to make an educated decision on what sounds the most likely or what fits with their view of the 40K setting.
Terminators, no matter what Goto may think or write, cannot do back flips. They have never been able to do back flips and never will so Goto fucked up. Eldar don't surf on tanks, Goto got it wrong and SM's don't use multi lazers, he got it wrong, again!
Even in a science fantasy setting like 40K common sense still has a place.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

normtheunsavoury said:


> It's not so much an issue of one piece of fluff cancelling out another or this being more canon than that. It's down to the reader to make an educated decision on what sounds the most likely or what fits with their view of the 40K setting.
> Terminators, no matter what Goto may think or write, cannot do back flips. They have never been able to do back flips and never will so Goto fucked up. Eldar don't surf on tanks, Goto got it wrong and SM's don't use multi lazers, he got it wrong, again!
> Even in a science fantasy setting like 40K common sense still has a place.


So in other words;
Gabriel Angelos never met Ahriman, 
The Thousand Sons have little to no relation to the Blood Ravens (seriously, look at ALL the games, the Thousand Sons came up a total of once, I counted.) 
There is no such bullshit as Angelos "hearing" the astronomican, 
and it's just as wrong wrong wrong as the Dawn of War 2 Novel?

Here's to hoping.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

DoW 2 was not as fluff rape as Gotos writing, however I do think it somewhat ridiculous that a SM captain was rendered comatose by a gimpy baby tyranid. 

Seriously, that thing was described as having a spinefist, a barbed strangler, a rending claw and a scything talon as the fight scene progressed. What kind of fucking retarded tyranid has that kind of loadout? 

And it was a newborn tyranid, freshly hatched from its egg. Thule should have ended that fight in a matter of seconds.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I haven't read the DOW2 books but the script of the game was horrible and too cliched.

And for a direct descendant of the 1k Sons, you only have access to a psyker for a few missions.

Yeah..


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> DoW 2 was not as fluff rape as Gotos writing, however I do think it somewhat ridiculous that a SM captain was rendered comatose by a gimpy baby tyranid.
> 
> Seriously, that thing was described as having a spinefist, a barbed strangler, a rending claw and a scything talon as the fight scene progressed. What kind of fucking retarded tyranid has that kind of loadout?
> 
> And it was a newborn tyranid, freshly hatched from its egg. Thule should have ended that fight in a matter of seconds.


Especially cause it was a Warrior Alpha in the game, dropped by mycetic spore with poison sacs and boneswords.
Seriously, the man had never even PLAYED the computer game, how the hell did he expect to write about it?

But as for me, considering the fact that the strongest relationship they have is with the Black Leigon and since they have all but stated to be from a traitor leigon, and considering the sheer deliscious irony of it. I am of the opinion the Blood Ravens are a loyalist Luna Wolves splinter.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Ha ha! Victory, the ender of all arguments about fluff, the Marc Gascoinge quote. 

For those of you whom have no idea who Marc Gascoinge is, he is a Black Library Publisher and representative of GW, so what he says is full Games Workshop sanction. 

The quote Gascogine,
"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40k universe. Or it was a legend that may well have never happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. 

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."

In brief any and all things including videogames, Codicies, novels, RPGS, boardgames, tabletop minis and comic books, as long as it has the GW 40K Logo on it, is canon. (suck it Richard.)

Furthermore it comes completely down to the individual's interpretation of how to accept it. For those of us who cannot accept Goto's works as canon, they can be veiwed as simply being overblown rumors or legends from the mouth of someone who has no idea what they are talking about.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> So in other words;
> Gabriel Angelos never met Ahriman,
> *The Thousand Sons have little to no relation to the Blood Ravens (seriously, look at ALL the games, the Thousand Sons came up a total of once, I counted.)*
> There is no such bullshit as Angelos "hearing" the astronomican,
> ...


The biggest indication of them being descended from Thousand Sons isn't in a Goto novel it's from a HH short story in Age of Darkness, written by Chris Wraight.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> The biggest indication of them being descended from Thousand Sons isn't in a Goto novel it's from a HH short story in Age of Darkness, written by Chris Wraight.


You mean the dream with the so called "Raven of blood?" That's actually referring to the bloodied and wounded state of the Raven Guard leigon. Or the Korvidae Cult. 

The fact is, I can think of dosens of chapters with red colour schemes, several of which are actually closer to the Thousand Sons.

There are a number of chapters with the motto "Knowledge is Power" such as the Mentors, no one is saying they're Thousand Sons descendants.

Also, compare and contrast cultures, the Blood Ravens have a stronger mixture of Hebrew, Grecian and Norse influences, as opposed to the Thousand Sons and their Eygptian ones.

The whole "knowledge is power" and tons of Psykers kick actually only goes back 900 years to the Gothic War and Azariah Vidya. Mostly in honour of him specifically.

Their geneseed mutation (sole geenseed mutation btw) is too stable, whereas the Thousand Sons were being wiped out by overactive mutation, hence the entire reason for the Rubric of Arhiman in the first place.

So no, when I can poke that many holes in a theory right there, I don't usually buy it. But then again, if we wanna have this debate, maybe I should make a new thread for it.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The author himself said something along the lines that his story finally put an end to fan speculation about the origins of the BR being linked to the 1k Sons.

There is no if or buts, it's just the reality now. It's even written that Magnus sent them off-planet prior to the invasion of Prospero without telling them why.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> You mean the dream with the so called "Raven of blood?" That's actually referring to the bloodied and wounded state of the Raven Guard leigon. Or the Korvidae Cult.
> 
> The fact is, I can think of dosens of chapters with red colour schemes, several of which are actually closer to the Thousand Sons.
> 
> ...


He was referring to the short story _Rebirth_ from _Age of Darkness_, not the novel _A Thousand Sons_. I don't know if you've read it, but the story shows a number of Thousand Sons who show no signs of the flesh change whatsoever and also seems to indicate that Magnus actually sent a signifcant number of Sons away from Prospero before the siege. It's really the end of the story which kind of hints that those survivors possibly went on to form a new chapter.

And the culture bit doesn't really say that much, seeing as modern day Blood Ravens have no idea what their original origin is. And as a fleet based chapter it's not like they have a homeworld who's traditions and cultures they can assimilate.

That all being said, there still aren't any hard facts that prove they are Thousand Sons descendants and I highly doubt there ever will be.

And also, please don't make another Blood Ravens origins thread, there are enough of them already.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> The biggest indication of them being descended from Thousand Sons isn't in a Goto novel it's from a HH short story in Age of Darkness, written by Chris Wraight.


I havent read that one, but there is also an indication in A Thousand Sons. 
Its when Ahriman and the other captain(s) are in there to catch a glimpse of the future. She says something about lost sons and a Raven of Blood. They quest for knowledge but it is denied to them. Sound like the Blood Ravens?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Rems said:


> _Inquisition War_ though is just old. Everything in it was accurate at the time. Goto's by comparison was wrong when he was writing. Besides there's not much in _Inquisition War_ that is outright wrong. I actually rather like Watson's take on 40k, its fantastically gothic and grim dark. It's a much more unsettling, alien setting that the current depictions of 40k.


I would give you rep if I could... merely for good taste. 

Cheers,
P.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

DeathJester921 said:


> I havent read that one, but there is also an indication in A Thousand Sons.
> Its when Ahriman and the other captain(s) are in there to catch a glimpse of the future. She says something about lost sons and a Raven of Blood. They quest for knowledge but it is denied to them. Sound like the Blood Ravens?


Maybe, but it's not as sturdy as the Thousand Son in _Rebirth_ who has a raven with a blood drop on his shoulder pad and recites the motto to


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

DeathJester921 said:


> I havent read that one, but there is also an indication in A Thousand Sons.
> Its when Ahriman and the other captain(s) are in there to catch a glimpse of the future. She says something about lost sons and a Raven of Blood. They quest for knowledge but it is denied to them. Sound like the Blood Ravens?


That was ctually referring to either the Corvidae Cult or the Raven Guard. I ask you, considering the context of the dream was about the various leigons, the last few things connecting DIRECTLY to the other leigons, why, why WHY would that suddenly refer to a little unimportant chapter first seen as an entity oficially in the 37 Millenium? 

I've seen a more direct dissection by a pro floating around, unfortunately I would have to find it again, that makes this clear.

People keep seeing references to ravens, a bird used as a universal symbol of knowledge and using that as a connection.

As for the Short story Rebirth, yeah I can't argue with that. Except for the fact that even the author didn't like it after the fact, considered it far too unsubtle and the fact that the majority of loyal space marines from a number of traitor leigons all joined the Grey Knights to teach the first generation of the chapter.

Considering Nathaniel Garro is not a psyker, a Thousand Son would likely go over well.

But even beside that, that still fails to explain how Blood got worked into the name if people keep going for the Corvidae cult, I recall no reference to a blooddrop anywhere in that short story. And by the way, Corvidae is actually a reference to Magpies, Ravens, Crows and several other similar species, all long seen as symbols of knowledge, wisdom and trickery.

Hopefully that will put an end to the debate, at least with me, because I am trying REALLY hard not to turn this into a Blood Ravens origins debate, because I know I will lose, not from facts, but because of sheer volume.

When you have more people shouting "you're wrong" faster than you can keep up with, it's very hard to argue.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> As for the Short story Rebirth, yeah I can't argue with that. Except for the fact that even the author didn't like it after the fact, considered it far too unsubtle and the fact that the majority of loyal space marines from a number of traitor leigons all joined the Grey Knights to teach the first generation of the chapter.
> 
> Considering Nathaniel Garro is not a psyker, a Thousand Son would likely go over well.


The latter part is conjecture, though. So far, Garro has gone after rather specific targets--to include Loyalists. It's a leap (and, not to be rude, kind of unrealistic) to assume that he went after ALL Loyalists from Traitor Legions.

At any rate, I've never seen it stated that the majority of those guys became Grey Knights. Now, if you have a source, I will gladly retract this and thank you for the knowledge! Beyond that, the author worrying that it wasn't subtle enough hardly contradicts the fact that he DID want to link the Blood Ravens to the Thousand Sons (assuming he did so; I haven't even gotten a chance to read "Rebirth" yet).



> But even beside that, that still fails to explain how Blood got worked into the name if people keep going for the Corvidae cult, I recall no reference to a blooddrop anywhere in that short story.


It could be anything. It could be deliberate of the Blood Ravens to obfuscate their past with a confusing connection to one or more First Founding Chapters. Or it could be a nod from their founders to the sacrifices they made to stay loyal. In any case, the inclusion of a blood drop doesn't weaken the case.



> And by the way, Corvidae is actually a reference to Magpies, Ravens, Crows and several other similar species, all long seen as symbols of knowledge, wisdom and trickery.


If anything, this makes the connection between those themes and the Fellowship in question stronger... but it doesn't make the connection between the Corvidae and the Blood Ravens any less so.

But honestly, I don't really care. It's not a big deal to me whether the Blood Ravens are descended from one Founding Chapter or another. I just find it amusing that there are at least two very direct lines drawn between them and the Thousand Sons, but so many folks choose to ignore them in favor of a couple of cryptic lines of dialogue. C'est la vie, I guess. 

As for the original topic, I really think you got the answers you needed already.

I mean, GW's policy regarding canon has not been any great secret. So, from a philosophical standpoint, you know which way to proceed. From a logical standpoint, it's even easier. There are no other references to Astartes multi-lasers or Exarchs surfing tanks, or Biel-Tan lacking an Avatar, etc. In fact, there are tons of contradicting examples that are more recent than Goto, and far more supported by the genre as a whole. So why sweat it?

But if your answer is "I'm sweating it because of potential debates", then I've got no answer that will satisfy you. Once upon a time, people argued and killed over the assertion that the world was flat and/or was the center of the universe. We no longer give such ideas credence. This is even easier: it's fiction. There's nothing to prove. If someone seriously wants to argue with you about the validity of Goto's vision of 40k ad nauseum, and is intent on ignoring the blatantly obvious, I question your priorities. Jokingly. In good spirits and with no insult in my heart. 

Cheers,
P.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Phoebus said:


> But honestly, I don't really care. It's not a big deal to me whether the Blood Ravens are descended from one Founding Chapter or another. I just find it amusing that there are at least two very direct lines drawn between them and the Thousand Sons, but so many folks choose to ignore them in favor of a couple of cryptic lines of dialogue. C'est la vie, I guess.


The only reason I question it is not for the hints that it IS, but the reasons it's NOT, like the lack of flesh change and so on (no I dont wanna start another debate about it, anyone who is listening) and btw my opinion is the short story Rebirth was only written BECAUSE of the theory, I checked the guy's work, very new writer to 40K at the time, I think he was trying to make a name for himself by stirring the pot a bit, considering the fact that he himself doesnt like how blatant he was, still a very good writer however.



Phoebus said:


> As for the original topic, I really think you got the answers you needed already.


I agree.



Phoebus said:


> I mean, GW's policy regarding canon has not been any great secret. So, from a philosophical standpoint, you know which way to proceed. From a logical standpoint, it's even easier. There are no other references to Astartes multi-lasers or Exarchs surfing tanks, or Biel-Tan lacking an Avatar, etc. In fact, there are tons of contradicting examples that are more recent than Goto, and far more supported by the genre as a whole. So why sweat it?


Also agreed.



Phoebus said:


> But if your answer is "I'm sweating it because of potential debates", then I've got no answer that will satisfy you.


Less "potential debates" and more, "current and long running debate that I have been fighting for a very long time now, since the beginning of my run as a 40K player using Blood Ravens as my army, and have been catching alot of flak, insults and general unpleasantness for".



Phoebus said:


> Once upon a time, people argued and killed over the assertion that the world was flat and/or was the center of the universe. We no longer give such ideas credence. This is even easier: it's fiction. There's nothing to prove. If someone seriously wants to argue with you about the validity of Goto's vision of 40k ad nauseum, and is intent on ignoring the blatantly obvious,


Also agreed, sometimes even I wonder why I care. But unfortunately, I do.



Phoebus said:


> I question your priorities. Jokingly. In good spirits and with no insult in my heart.
> 
> Cheers,
> P.


Thank you. To be entirely honest, this is actually the nicest thing I have heard from a stranger in a very long time, and is the nicest thing I have heard from ANYONE AT ALL in the last five days. So once again. Thank you.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

No offense but why are you so into the BR? What's 'cool' about them? What sets them apart from your average chapter?

If anything, I think they are a disservice to a legion many consider amazing given how bland and generic they are.

'Knowledge is power' hurr.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> No offense but why are you so into the BR? What's 'cool' about them? What sets them apart from your average chapter?
> 
> If anything, I think they are a disservice to a legion many consider amazing given how bland and generic they are.
> 
> 'Knowledge is power' hurr.


Becuzzz dey gotz da moar librarianzzz!!!!

Seriously though, some might disagree, but I view the BR fluff as a complete and total fuck up. I actually think that they have the potential to be very interesting, but the way their story has been handled and the grief of actually trying to figure out which of their shit is actually canon is an enormous pain in the ass. 

Let's review:
You got the stories in the first DOW and it's expansions which are really quite "meh". Than Goto pitches up and butchers the shit out of everything he writes.

Then DOW2 comes along with one of the most awesome displays of plot armour ever, with a handfull of marines just ripping the shit out of everything from Orks to Eldar to a friggin' splinter of a Hive Fleet. 

Then DOW2 the novel is released and, while it doesn't rape fluff as bad as Goto did, it changes the story line as kills of a fucking character that appears in *both* the expansions.

Then we get Chaos Rising with a shitload of endings and it turns out that none of them are actually what happened (who's the angry devastator?). And this one surpasses the original DOW2 in ridiculous plot. Seriously, now a hand full of BR are kicking the shit out of thousands of Black Legion warriors.

I haven't played _Retribution_ but if the past is any indication they'll be going with the marines as the winners with the next one, which means the chapter master of the BR is now an exterminatus-happy Eldar sympathiser who's been known to have heretical visions.

And now we're also getting all these vague ass TS origins hints which kind of fit but not quite.

Not to mention that with all the casualties they always seem to take they should be almost extinct by now.

Seriously, it's a complete mess.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The game's story was horrible. You only get to control a psyker for like three missions despite being an offshoot chapter of the Thousand Sons and his spells are lame.

I loved how Chaos Rising hyped about how cool it is to turn to Chaos, only for you to 

get a mace in the face during the ending cinematic followed by a roll of credits. 


Retribution was a blur. I only did the campaign as the BR and didn't touch the other races. The ending was also very disappointing.

Pro tip. Stick with the Drednaught for every mission, he can almost solo everything. 

PS. Tarkus. The Lamest SM ever to exist.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> That was ctually referring to either the Corvidae Cult or the Raven Guard.


Which book says this?


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

DeathJester921 said:


> Which book says this?


He's inferring from the prophecy in _A Thousand Sons_, re-read page 5 of the thread.

It's a viable inference, the prophecy is worded vaguely enough you can read either/or, or both, in relation to the fate of the Corvidae, the genesis/tragedy of the Blood Ravens, or both. I'm a 'both' person myself.
I'm not sold on the Raven Guard idea, though again, it's viable if you think she's referring to their slaughter on Isstvan V, though why they get singled out is a bit mehrandom, it really only serves to muddy the waters and thow something else out there we can discuss.

Which I guess was the point. McNeill gave himself more outs and us more to talk about. Unlike Wraight, who was pretty damn unsubtle. I can't recall a blood drop reference in_ Rebirth_ (check out that title!), but there was something about the setting sun glinting off the curve of the red of the 1KSons' shoulder guard, with the Raven symbol vanishing into shadow, as he uttered the motto.

The best thing about the Blood Ravens is how they steal everyone else's stuff...


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

No.
Just ... no.

Then again, I don't even consider the fluff in a codex canon.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Chompy Bits said:


> Becuzzz dey gotz da moar librarianzzz!!!!


 Which really isn't all that significant, since the Silver Skulls and a few other do too, it's a personal choice, they look for psykers in paticular. But besides that, _Sciencia Potetia Est _(Knowledge/information is power) is an EXTREMELY old maxim, considering it was first coined (that we know of) by Sir Francis Bacon in the 14th century, but the idea is even older than that. And it's a very common motto.



Chompy Bits said:


> Seriously though, some might disagree, but I view the BR fluff as a complete and total fuck up. I actually think that they have the potential to be very interesting, but the way their story has been handled and the grief of actually trying to figure out which of their shit is actually canon is an enormous pain in the ass.


Tell me about it.



Chompy Bits said:


> Let's review:
> You got the stories in the first DOW and it's expansions which are really quite "meh". Than Goto pitches up and butchers the shit out of everything he writes.


Complete agreement here, they were fairly bland, really just the Mentors chapter with a palette swap at the time.



Chompy Bits said:


> Then DOW2 comes along with one of the most awesome displays of plot armour ever, with a handfull of marines just ripping the shit out of everything from Orks to Eldar to a friggin' splinter of a Hive Fleet.


You DO realize that in fluff (their own of course) Space Marines are usually so tough that it takes nearly the equivalent of at least 2 or 3 entire Imperial Guard squads, focusing all their firepower on them to take down one lone marine right?

And the implication throughout the game was that the 85th Vendoland was helping you out, dealing with the main invasion while you and your squads went in to deal with primary strategic targets.

Though I won't deny, there are times when even I, the Marine fanboy thought it was a bit excessive on how outnumbered they were.



Chompy Bits said:


> Then DOW2 the novel is released and, while it doesn't rape fluff as bad as Goto did, it changes the story line as kills of a fucking character that appears in *both* the expansions.


I am of the opinion the author didn't even bother to play the game before he wrote it.



Chompy Bits said:


> Then we get Chaos Rising with a shitload of endings and it turns out that none of them are actually what happened (who's the angry devastator?). And this one surpasses the original DOW2 in ridiculous plot. Seriously, now a hand full of BR are kicking the shit out of thousands of Black Legion warriors.


Avitus, if your question about the devastator wasn't rhetorical.
And I'll admit, this is where the suspension of disbelief falls a bit, since Chaos Space Marines are supposed to be every bit as tough as Loyalists, it just don't add up.
Although, minor issues on how tough the marines were, the storytelling was fine, I found the story of apothecary Galen to be agreeably creepy, and a little bit depressing.
And actually it is established that the canon ending was the one where the Force Commander is sent on a penance crusade in the Eye of Terror for 100 years, presumably for the failure to recognize the corruption in the traitor. 

The traitor being Avitus according to canon




Chompy Bits said:


> I haven't played _Retribution_ but if the past is any indication they'll be going with the marines as the winners with the next one, which means the chapter master of the BR is now an exterminatus-happy Eldar sympathiser who's been known to have heretical visions.


Once again, why I FUCKING HATE GOTO! Really on the whole, that's part of the reason why I think the reasons and real life stuff behind WHY fluff was written should be taken into account when one thinks about it's canonicity.

But seriously, Retribution wasn't that bad. 



Chompy Bits said:


> And now we're also getting all these vague ass TS origins hints which kind of fit but not quite.


You mean don't fit at all >.>... (I kid, I kid, I've already given the reasons why I consider them bullshit, no need to hit me with more arguments.)



Chompy Bits said:


> Not to mention that with all the casualties they always seem to take they should be almost extinct by now.


~200 marines, but hey, Pedro Kantor only had 116 and the Crimson Fists recovered, hell, he was prepared to do it with 16 marines. Woulda taken a hella long time though, so will this.



Chompy Bits said:


> Seriously, it's a complete mess.


No argument there. But personally, the stuff I consider the most fun, is looking at the descriptions from the DOW2 weapons, extracting fluff from that, otherwise I'd have no idea who Chapter Master Moriah was, or Chaplian Shedur, or Chaplain Elizur, or the fact that they used to recruit junior Arbites from Meridian, or the fact that they always give the cheif Librarian the ceremonial name of Azariah after the Great Father, or the details of the life, career and death of the veteran Adrian.

I like Blood Ravens fluff because I can dig out little obscure bits and examine them and find some really cool stories. And because it gives me space to make my own that fit into the larger whole. If I couldn't do that, well then by now I'd be either playing a Blood Angels army, or writing my own chapter, or hell, I'd bite the bullet and play the REAL Mentors chapter if I still wanted to go with "Knowledge is Power",which just doesn't satisfy the same way.

Really it's like my chosen vocation, Archeology, I find little obscure things, examine them, and then tell you all about them. =D


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

If we look beside the fact that I like their colour scheme, have a few cool characters (Gabriel, Thule), I like the mystery and the potential that they are Thousand Sons decendants. I know McNeil himself have said the hint in _A Thousand Sons_ was about the Corvidae uncertain what was happening at the time of the Wolves attack of Prospero, and the blood meant their slaughter. ADB further more added on this statement and said that was the last time the connection would be made (if Im not quoting him wrong).

Wraight came and changed this and gave another hint in _Rebirth_. So no matter what people think, or want to think, there is potential. So to answer the question how they stand out, is that the potential of being decendants of now "bad" guys.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

forkmaster said:


> If we look beside the fact that I like their colour scheme, have a few cool characters (Gabriel, Thule), I like the mystery and the potential that they are Thousand Sons decendants. I know McNeil himself have said the hint in _A Thousand Sons_ was about the Corvidae uncertain what was happening at the time of the Wolves attack of Prospero, and the blood meant their slaughter. ADB further more added on this statement and said that was the last time the connection would be made (if Im not quoting him wrong).


You yourself just said all the reasons it's not a connection? 



forkmaster said:


> Wraight came and changed this and gave another hint in _Rebirth_. So no matter what people think, or want to think, there is potential. So to answer the question how they stand out, is that the potential of being decendants of now "bad" guys.


I personally eschew to the Black Legion Theory, 
one for the irony of the descendants of the Arch-traitor being loyal servants of the Emperor, 

two for the fact that Abaddon seems to hate them in paticular, 

three for the fact that they are strongly hinted to have a close connection to the Black Legion in much of the wargear and loading screens I have read, 

and four, because it makes more sense to me then the Thousand Sons theory, which, other than the blatantly obvious _Rebirth_ I can poke tons of holes in. 

And I've already given my opinion that the author of _Rebirth_ was still new and trying to make a name for himself, so he chose to answer a long cherished mystery to attract attention.

I don't really blame him however, I'd do the same.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Chris Wraight is an excellent author both Sword of Justice and Vengeance where awesome reads and so was Battle of the Fang. I doubt he was trying to make a name for himself.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Chris Wraight is an excellent author both Sword of Justice and Vengeance where awesome reads and so was Battle of the Fang. I doubt he was trying to make a name for himself.


Let me re-phrase that. 

I am already aware he writes and has written a great deal of other books, such as several Stargate books (the purpose of which still eludes me, I always found the series to be enough, but hey that's me), and have heard nothing but praise for him as an Author.

When I said make a name for himself, I should have been more clear, I was referring to making a name for himself as a Black Library writer , from what I checked of the dates for the publications of _Battle of the Fang_ and _Rebirth_ (which I will admit, I have not yet read) they were released at the same time, May earlier this year, with _Battle of the Fang_ his first novel_ set in the 40k universe._

I could be entirely wrong, but I checked his publication history and found he has only written a novel and three short stories, so he's fairly new to the 40kverse, especially considering they were all publsihed within the last year.

I never meant to bismirch the man's reputation, and as a budding writer myself, I know and respect how hard it is to write, especially if it is a subject you may or may not be familiar with, I know nothing about his personal life, so I don't know if he had been reading about or playing 40K before doing his first job for Black Library.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

what are the Goto books called, might get one just for the lols of reading it


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

khrone forever said:


> what are the Goto books called, might get one just for the lols of reading it


Probably not, unless you find a technically decent writer,sans one exception where I am fairly sure he was drunk at the time, and watching him anally violating fluff with a sideways coathanger to be funny.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

khrone forever said:


> what are the Goto books called, might get one just for the lols of reading it


Fluff inacuracies is the only lols you will get if that`s what you mean. 

Beyond that he is a competent writer.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

> just for the lols of reading it


by that i meant that it would be funny to laugh at the idiocy of his writing


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Fluff inacuracies is the only lols you will get if that`s what you mean.
> 
> Beyond that he is a competent writer.





khrone forever said:


> by that i meant that it would be funny to laugh at the idiocy of his writing


This is the sad bit. Goto isn't actually a bad writer at all. It's just that his knowledge of 40k lore seems to be comparable that of your average baked potato.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Chompy Bits said:


> This is the sad bit. Goto isn't actually a bad writer at all. It's just that his knowledge of 40k lore seems to be comparable that of your average baked potato.


Indeed, writing his own stuff (which I am sure he is creative enough to do) and he would be quite sucessful really.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> You yourself just said all the reasons it's not a connection?
> 
> I personally eschew to the Black Legion Theory,
> one for the irony of the descendants of the Arch-traitor being loyal servants of the Emperor,
> ...


Well I was just giving info of what I know.  Its confusing but thats 40k in a bottle. My point is that the texts says one thing (agreeing with some fans) and the authors says another (agreeing with the other board of fans). So its up for interpretation. In my mind they are decendents of Traitors, until someone smacks a book in my face saying otherwise.

To be honest I see no connection what so ever with the Black Legion. The only interests I can imagine the Black Legion has with the Blood Ravens, is what Eliphas has told him. If one Chaplain during the Great Crusade could manipulate a Primarch, then I'd guess one could manipulate Abaddon whispering "Hey whiping these guys out will do you good!" I think he has a deeper plans for them and the connection between the BR and Word Bearers are stronger.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

Goto's version of the Warhammer universe actually sounds infinitely better then what the rest of the BL has put out. Surfin' Eldar? Break dancing Terminators? The only thing that could make it better is if a bunch of Orks from 'the hood' showed up.


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## lnquisitor Lord (Jun 4, 2010)

You misunderstand what cannon means. It just means someone somewhere told this story in the 40k universe, it does not mean it is factual. It could be a propagandist or a chaos plat to sow discord. You want to worrk about cannon read the novels from 20 years ago, or better yet the first Rogue Trader book it is all cannon. The only thing that is "true" is the Horus Heresy series which is why you don't see Goto writing that.



Nicholas Hadrian said:


> I'm sure I'm going to get alot of insults for this, probably called an idiot in at least 5 diffrent languages if not more but I must ask the question.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Dicrel Seijin said:


> My friend gave me Goto to read when I was first started getting into the game. I kept second-guessing myself as I read since would run across something that didn't sound quite right and wonder if I had just misremembered something from the codices, BRB, or other BL fiction.
> 
> I consider everything that BL writes as canon, for a given value of canon. For example, the Ciaphias Cain books are basically selective memoirs compiled by an inquisitor. The involvement of the Inquisition should already be a warning flag that things are not quite what they seem. And the value of these books as canon are not as high as say, a codex.


Ummm the Cain novels, are an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, detailing some of the incidents over the last few centuriesa, for other Ordos Xenos inquisitors. As such, it's just as canon as codexes,BRB, and other BL fiction.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

C.S. Goto is actually a pen name for Matt Ward when he wants to got to his extreme desires of butt fucking lore.


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## Buttons (Jan 23, 2012)

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> Apparently Kasrkin and Terminators can become BFFs, yeah none of that radically diffrent outlooks on life and altered human psyches, Spacemarines are really just great bowling buddies who like to drink beer and take their freinds for rides in the magical Razorback that turns into a Landraider.


Well I don't see anything inherently wrong with this. Since I do not know the context I cannot state anything for certain, but I imagine that the two could have a mutual respect for each other. The space marine thinks of the storm trooper like "this guy is pretty cool, he is an ordinary human with a 4+ armour save and toughness 3, yet he is willing to take on chaos space marines, and all of the other horrors the galaxy can throw at him." the storm trooper thinks of the space marine like "well he is a good soldier, sure he is genetically modified and wears a meter of armour, but he has been fightin for the emprah for as much as a millennium."


> Also apparently all female Eldar are continually raped, killed and tortured, not necessarily in that order, little eldar girls too. Also, apparently Farseers are fat child molesting Slanneshi. One farseer (woman of course) gets tortured for about 180 pages or so. Stay classy Casshern.


Well that is disturbing to say the least.

Overall my opinion has been "everything from BL is canon, but the narrator might not be the most reliable person." If a piece of fluff seems stupid, or blatantly false, I just assume it is propaganda, an unreliable narrator, or an ignorant narrator.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

lnquisitor Lord said:


> You misunderstand what cannon means. It just means someone somewhere told this story in the 40k universe, it does not mean it is factual. It could be a propagandist or a Chaos plant to sow discord. You want to work about cannon read the novels from 20 years ago, or better yet the first Rogue Trader book it is all cannon. The only thing that is "true" is the Horus Heresy series which is why you don't see Goto writing that.


I understand quite fully what canon means.

I can reject or accept the books as I prefer, due to how I interpret it's canonicity, as far as I am concerned the works of Casshern Goto are pure lies, or the mistaken accounts of a brain damaged Guardsman.

Also, it's "Canon" one N.

As for the Stormtrooper/Terminator thing, it's less "I respect you" and more " Hey, wanna go bowling buddy? I'll bring the beer."


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> Unfortunately, the statement of it being "Canon is what you choose to be correct" doesn't help in an argument.


Actually, it sorta does. It wins the "argument" right off the bat, because it's the only thing that's _officially_ true. The rest is arguing about details and perspectives that fans think are true, but aren't.

When you dismiss the way 40K canon policy actually works, in favour of needing an answer from another perspective, you're essentially looking at a bunch of cats and arguing about why they don't bark.

They don't bark because they're not dogs. They're cats.

"Canon is what you choose to be correct" doesn't help in the argument because you're choosing an argument that doesn't have anything to do with 40K canon. It works how it works. You're trying to apply outside rules to it, which is why you can never reach an answer.


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