# Chaos magic powers, broken?



## Truthiness08 (Jan 17, 2008)

I played a game against this dude playing chaos the other day. The game went well and was quite entertaining my only negative comment with the game was when my opponent used the psychic power "leash of submission" (the one were you can moved enemy models 2D6 and redeploy them how ever you want). 

Personally, I feel this and this alone won him the game, because he was able to pull my guys out of cover and charge, performing this move multiple times during the game. I'm not trying to complain about it, rules are rules. But I feel this gives his army a huge advantage, and dare I say it, cheesy. Anyways does anyone else feel this way about this particular power?

I will also close with.....I believe this is one of the very scares and rare advantages the new chaos has, so I can't bitch too much if at all.


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## thomas2 (Nov 4, 2007)

Alot of other people also say this is cheesy, and 2 Demon Princes with lashes of submission, with other various stuff, is considered the cheesiest build. I'm glad I haven't played this, as it lots very nasty.


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

It sounds very harsh, but it looks like it was used by a very good player. Try to use a hood to stop it from working. Or have a assassin to take it out.


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

Ir us nasty, i play nurgle and im jeolus i cant use it.


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## Deceiver (Sep 19, 2007)

FYI: Lash of submission
requires los,24" range,only available to prince and sorcerer (as long as they purchased mark of slaanesh),only vs non-vehicle unit.
unit moved 2d6"--not affected by diff terrain but dangerous terrain tests taken,affected unit makes a pinning check. Unit cannot be moved within 1" of enemy unit,off board or into impassable terrain. Must pass psychic test.

typically the opp will move your unit closer for cc or shoot them with noise marines (blastmaster),defiler or obliterators. Also,will keep mc's at bay with it as well.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

It's overrated. Congratulations, you pulled my ASSAULT UNIT into range of your assault unit. I'm where I want to be too, we just cut the middle man, i.e. no man's land, out of the picture. Seriously, lash a mob of 30 boyz towards you sometime and see what happens. Even if you charge, you're still in for a hell of a fight-- and that's not just limited to Ork Boyz. If you lash someone out of cover and shoot them, that's an entirely different thing, but you can't base a strategy on lashing them out of cover in order to shoot rockets and/or battle cannons at them, since it's a fairly random distance that you move the models. The power really is only truly reliable at putting things into assault range for you, and like I said... you've still got a fight on your hands at that point.


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

honestly i can see where the lash of submission can be exceedingly good, and can have a disadvantage if youdo the wrong thing such as move a death company into assault range... but its just one of many psychic ability's that are "cheesy". if you want cheesy abilities try the one way fight of mind war from the eldar. honestly space marine players just need to look at their own power's and learn to abuse them aswell. i say with all chaos lost its one thing to aid us in our much harder bought victory's....or losses.


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## Pseudo (Nov 5, 2007)

The Son of Horus said:


> It's overrated. Congratulations, you pulled my ASSAULT UNIT into range of your assault unit. I'm where I want to be too, we just cut the middle man, i.e. no man's land, out of the picture. Seriously, lash a mob of 30 boyz towards you sometime and see what happens. Even if you charge, you're still in for a hell of a fight-- and that's not just limited to Ork Boyz. If you lash someone out of cover and shoot them, that's an entirely different thing, but you can't base a strategy on lashing them out of cover in order to shoot rockets and/or battle cannons at them, since it's a fairly random distance that you move the models. The power really is only truly reliable at putting things into assault range for you, and like I said... you've still got a fight on your hands at that point.


Yes, lash is overrated. Those Chaos are only pulling my assault squads closer to them!

The assault squads I don't have in an IG/Tau army. So you move my guardsmen/firewarriors forward twice in a row (take the power twice) for a total of 4d6", and then assault them.

In the *first turn*.

Why it's broken is because you can do just that - get footsloggers into assault range within the first turn (nevermind stuff with bikes/jumppacks). In a normal game, you should almost NEVER be able to get stuff into assaults in the 1st turn, that's just plain stupid and broken.


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## whocares (Jan 11, 2008)

Pseudo said:


> Yes, lash is overrated. Those Chaos are only pulling my assault squads closer to them!
> 
> The assault squads I don't have in an IG/Tau army. So you move my guardsmen/firewarriors forward twice in a row (take the power twice) for a total of 4d6", and then assault them.
> 
> ...


Not to mention that you can target a unit that is already in close combat, lash it out of combat, and then charge it again.

Or lash a heavy weapons squad so it doesn't have line of sight.

Or lash a unit so it's out of line of sight for you, all except that one guy with a special weapon you want to kill, then you shoot a rocket at the only model you can see.

Or you lash their unit into a congo line so it minimizes their attacks in close combat.

Or, or, or...

Assuming the chaos player is not mentally handicapped, lash is extremely powerful.

Oh, and you make them take a pinning test. Why not?


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## Casmiricus (Mar 6, 2008)

The answer is simple: Psychic hoods and the like. Alternatively, blast it to paste with vehicles. Any imperial player can take a Vindicare, or a Culexus assassin. SM have librarians, As do the DH and WH. Tau have the range and shootyness to kill him before he's in range. Eldar have other psychic powers to combat it, Vehicles are immune...

Yeah, there's plenty of counters. Really the army that's most at a disadvantage is the IG because we don't have any cheap anti-psyker options.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> Not to mention that you can target a unit that is already in close combat, lash it out of combat, and then charge it again.


Wrong. Lash is subject to all the normal rules for a ranged psychic power, namely it has to abide by the Shooting rules. No pulling units out of cc, ever.



> Yes, lash is overrated. Those Chaos are only pulling my assault squads closer to them!


You guys do know that I can use Lash to move you in any direction right? A smart chaos player will use Lash to push your uber cc unit away in order to shoot it more. Among other things. I regularly push devastators/havocs away so they are BEHIND cover and have to waste a turn moving to get back in position.

Lash is a very powerful ability but as stated here it is easily dealt with as well. I can't count how many times I have not gotten it off due to a psychic hood or being out of range. I can't agree that it is, by itself, a game winning power Truth as it is easily handled. Its random nature doesn't help it any either.


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## Siege (Jan 18, 2008)

I notice when something is effective people are quick to scream broken or cheesy...

I haven't had to face this Lash Of Submission personally, though it does sound nasty, especially when used in the ways Wraithlord described, it definitely doesn't sound broken.

Is this a Slaanesh thing? With the lash and all... Just wondering as I play a Khorne army kinda often and I have never had this used against me.


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## whocares (Jan 11, 2008)

The Wraithlord said:


> Wrong. Lash is subject to all the normal rules for a ranged psychic power, namely it has to abide by the Shooting rules. No pulling units out of cc, ever.


I rechecked and indeed, you are correct. But I wonder why they bothered to say you needed line of site for lash, but never bothered to say that you couldn't target locked models, since both restrictions are covered by the usual shooting rules. That's what confused me.


Edit: Huh, I guess you have to make priority checks to use lash too, if you aren't targeting the closest unit. Never thought of that.


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## Truthiness08 (Jan 17, 2008)

"I notice when something is effective people are quick to scream broken or cheesy..."

I am not one to scream cheese in the face of defeat, in my initial post I said I did enjoy the game. But, this particular ability is one that can be easily pulled off (seeing as how he did it multiple times, or maybe got lucky) and can be used in tandem with other abilities to set-up a nasty combo, that's really the only reason I would call this cheesy, plus this is a power gamers milk and cookies. Hey, if this is the only thing I can bitch about with the new codex, then personally, chaos is screwed.


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## chrisman 007 (Jan 3, 2008)

Gift of Chaos is very annoying. Having your HSO turn against you really isn't good.


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## Pseudo (Nov 5, 2007)

Gift of Chaos isn't cheesy, it's a cool fluffy power. I have no problem with stuff that's powerful - Lash is stupid however.

There's a reason stuff with jumppacks/bikes never gets the infiltrate rule - so they can't assault in the first turn.

There's a reason you have to deploy MORE than 24" away - so stuff with jumppacks and fleet can't assault in the first turn.

There's a reason you can't disembark from a transport that moved MORE than 12" - so you can't assault out of fast open-topped vehicles IN THE FIRST TURN.

Etc etc and so on.

Lash isn't overpowered in itself, getting into assault range within the first turn is overpowered. How is anybody supposed to field a shooty army against a lash army when they get NO CHANCE to shoot them? Shooty armies should always have at least one turn of shooting. That's how the game is balanced.

That's why lash is imbalanced.


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## Zeldrin (Feb 23, 2008)

"Lash isn't overpowered in itself, getting into assault range within the first turn is overpowered. How is anybody supposed to field a shooty army against a lash army when they get NO CHANCE to shoot them? Shooty armies should always have at least one turn of shooting. That's how the game is balanced.

That's why lash is imbalanced."

I must say I disagree. It is the equivalent of saying a cc force should have atleast one turn of cc to make the game balanced. Some forces will slaughter one force and get ripped by another - thats balance. I fully expect about half of my cc nid army to get taken down before I even get to use them against a shooty list. However, I would expect to have a right good giggle against a person who lashed a unit of nids and gave me a boost to the front lines. Its just that simple, not every army can beat every opponent or every list. Expect to lose as many as you win (if you aren't a power gamer). 
Lash isn't over powered at all, its actually a really fluffy addition for a slaaneh force, though anyone who relies on one psychic power to win a game clearly needs to redress their strategy.

Do not cofuse this for a rant, all I am saying is that some forces who need to move will lap this power up while static forces will hate it. Thats just part of the game and I would say the game is more balanced for lash simply beause it prevents people winning on their set up. Before lash a shooty list could set up, exploit cover, never move and win. This power prevents people making an all shooty no thinky list and forces people to add in a few different units they may not have used before. Whats bad about that? Whats bad about forcing people to think about new tactics? 

It may seem unrealistic to have units hitting combat in turn one, but it also strikes me as unrealistic to have an army sit still for the whole game.

All the best and apologies if this post comes across as a little forceful (genuinely not intended!),

Zeldrin


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> Lash isn't overpowered in itself, getting into assault range within the first turn is overpowered. How is anybody supposed to field a shooty army against a lash army when they get NO CHANCE to shoot them? Shooty armies should always have at least one turn of shooting. That's how the game is balanced.
> 
> That's why lash is imbalanced.


Heh, Lash is balanced by its sheer randomness. I played a game once where I pulled off Lash in all 6 turns and managed to move the units I targeted (all added distance together mind you) a grand total of 15 inches. 2" in the first 4 turns each time for a total of 8" and then the last two turns saw movement of 3" and 4" respectively. Considering I have to take a fairly expensive sorcerer along with a fairly expensive power in order to do that, it isn't quite as broken as some would like to believe.

For example, I have yet to hear a Space Marine player agree with me that the Psychic Hood rules are overpowered (and you know they are!!!) yet they are often the first ones to bitch about the cheese factor when I put a Slaanesh Sorc with Lash on the table. Sorry but fuck you if you don't like it. You can have an item that allows you to negate ALL of my Thousand Sons VERY expensive powers each and every turn yet when I have a power that lets me move you the way I want, it is overpowered?? Or the Eldar player with Mind War claiming that my random movement spell is cheese, right after killing my daemon prince IN A SEPARATE COMBAT (Farseer not in cc obviously).

Deal with it folks, it really isn't as bad as some make it out to be and is actually on the same level if not somewhat less powerful than the abilities of other armies.


P.S. this post may sound confrontational and pointed at specific individuals and that is not the case. The whole "fuck you" part was a generalization of all the folks who I have had bitch at me about using Lash while their own cheese options are ok.


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## Pseudo (Nov 5, 2007)

Zeldrin said:


> I must say I disagree. It is the equivalent of saying a cc force should have atleast one turn of cc to make the game balanced.


No - shooting armies get at least one turn of shooting because CC units can't be shot at while they're in an assault AND they get to attack during both their own and their opponent's turn. That's why it's balanced.



Zeldrin said:


> Some forces will slaughter one force and get ripped by another - thats balance.


Uhh... no, that's not balance. Balance is when both sides have a roughly equal chance of winning and the individual competance (or incompetance) of either player leads their army to victory (or defeat) through superior tactical play.

Powergaming is when you rely on overusing any one specific tactic in the hope that your opponents army isn't specifically built to counter whatever it is you're overusing.

Take the Eldar Wraithlord army - it can easily be countered by taking lots of anti-tank weaponry. Multiple lascannons will easily down a Wraithlord. But the Wraithlord player is relying on the metagame to win - that their opponent will have a balanced list that will contain lots of anti-infantry weapons which are now useless. Essentially they're denying their opponent points, by forcing him to take stuff that is useless against Wraithlords.

And that even if your opponent has played you before, and know you field lots of Wraithlords, they're not going to go out and buy lots of anti-tank guns just so they can beat you.

It just turns 40k into a massive game of rock-paper-scissors because either you plonk your Wraithlord army down (rock) and YAY! They're spent 750 points on anti-infantry bolters and flamers (scissors) that can't wound your wraithlord! That means it's essentially 1500 points of your army vs the remaining 750 points worth of anti-tank in their army that can actually hurt you! Or else they have nothing but min-maxed las-plas (paper) and you're stuffed.

*Something is overpowered not because it can't be countered, but because it relys on the metagame of knowing your opponent won't bring that specific counter to the game either because they've never played you before and don't know what you're fielding, or because they're not going to go out and spend their hard earned money just to beat your cheesy army.*



The Wraithlord said:


> Blah blah blah lash isn't overpowered because there's one item you can get that will work less than 50% of the time and can't be picked by the majority of armies anyway that can counter it


Right.


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

I usually find people bitch about something being overpowered when it happens to rock their world for a game. I could say the following is overpowered because of what they did to my army...

Fury of the Ancients, Blood Angel Psychic Power. 

Fear of the Darkness (or whatever it's called). 

The Eldar stones that make you test powers on 3D6.

Overcharged Engines, Baal Predators that can move 12" and fire their Ass Cannons. 

Any of the Eldar Skimmer rules or wargear. 

But what's really funny, is that when Chaos gets severly crippled with the introduction of their latest Codex, their Deamons ripped away and still one of the highest CostperPoint armies in the game, people still bitch about one measly power than doesn't work 100% of the time and can almost be completely ignored by half the armies out there while countered by the remaining. 

The reason I think people find Lash truely bitchy is because it reverses the movement exploits everyone has been using from day one.


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## Zeldrin (Feb 23, 2008)

Re revelations: agreed

Re Wraithlord: that about hits the nail on the head. Lash does a lot to balance the playing field rather than bias it in favour of chaos. If you lose lash you have to lose all the other abilitie that are as or more powerful than it.

Re Pseudo: In fairness, a cc unit get no opportunity to respond to shooting units while they are on the move so I would say shooting armies have the advantage. Shooty units can still assaullt and attack, true assault units e.g. genestealers can only assault.

My point was more directed at an army list that is not altered game by game and, indeed, is judged after a series of games. not just one. In an ideal world you would have a 50/50 shot every game but in reality you really don't. However, over a series of games against different opponents I imagine the same list will see a fair number of wins and losses. That is the balance I had in mind. Sorry for any confusion.

Also, I have never built a list with the metagame in mind. I play models that are fluffy, look good on the table top and I hope will see me right. A wraithlord army is, in most intances, counter to fluff. If I did encounter a wraithlord army and it negated half my army, so what? Fair play to them! It is legal after all and still requires tactics to win with it. I would shake their hand like any other opponent. I can accept that any list I build will have less of a chance against some opponents than others simply based on the build. The game isn't only about in game tactics but also out of game strategy built into your list. Thats not imbalanced, its the luck of the draw. Heck, I could be the lucky one next game and inadvertently negate half my opponents army despite not subscribing to the metagame. That is balance, or at least a a realistic form of it.

Anyway, I sense this is getting a little pedantic and is not in the spirit of the original post. With that in mind I will drop this little debate as I don't want it to devolve into a flaming match.

I take your point and hope you can do the same with mine. Mine was an honest disageement with your stance, not a direct rant at you personally.

All the best,

Zeldrin


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## chrisman 007 (Jan 3, 2008)

I respect that the gift is really awesome. But doesn't stop it being slightly frustrating.


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## pyroanarchist (Feb 29, 2008)

In all fairness, no pyschic power sprung on you is anything less than frustrating. I love the lash, and can see how it could be used by power gamers to exploit some things. For example, pulling someone out of cover to assault them with Berzerkers (furious charge slaughter). Fluff wise this combination should never be used, and really shouldn't be, but a power gamer could exploit that. I've used lash mostly to either pull things out of cover, or push away nasty cc units (Hive tyrants are my favorite). I believe it is just as balanced as any psychic ability because perils still applies. I've killed my sorc just trying to move a squad a few inches back so they wouldn't get the assault and I would get another round of shooting before assaulting them.

To conclude, IMHO its a great ability and very balanced in the right hands. It is a rule that can be exploited, but how many of those do we all know about in our armies? I choose not to exploit a rule and use it along with fluff. Its really a matter of who you play against at that point, a fluffy player or a power gamer.


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## silvarius (Mar 21, 2008)

thomas2 said:


> Alot of other people also say this is cheesy, and 2 Demon Princes with lashes of submission, with other various stuff, is considered the cheesiest build. I'm glad I haven't played this, as it lots very nasty.


well we've lost our daemons so we gain cool stuff like the lash, thing is i faced this combo in a game, it's really not that good. shoot them with heavy artillery and there done for, and, because he had to pay so many points for the princes (and this was only a 1500 pt game) i took my marines straight to him, you see the daemon princes cost lots and you need lots of points to get things with blast templates which, in experience, most slanneshi players want, you see they jumble a unit together and then desecrate it, i only won through sheer numbers, he only had 25 men (includin the DPs) and a vindicator i had triple that.


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## whocares (Jan 11, 2008)

Revelations said:


> Fear of the Darkness (or whatever it's called).


I think fear of darkness is incredibly over powered. Not so much of because of what it does, but because of its point cost. Some games, in fact, most games, it does absolutely nothing. But, hey whatever, it's only five points, may as well throw it on my librarian on the cheap, he comes with a force weapon and a psychic hood anyway. But, when it does work, well, I have run about 600 points of Tau off the table with a 5 point power.

The thing about this thread though, is that it's about lash. Not about fear of darkness. Not about unkillable Eldar tanks (which, by the by, I think are the worst when it comes to cheese). Yes, it's true, every army has cheesy abilities. As every army SHOULD have cheesy abilities. Power gamers need something to do and hey, you need something to counter your opponent with. I'm all for lash, I think chaos deserves it. Doesn't mean it's not incredibly powerful.


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## silvarius (Mar 21, 2008)

i don't use it but i agree


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## Pseudo (Nov 5, 2007)

Pulling people out of cover or pushing tough CC units away isn't cheesy at all. That's what the psychic power was designed for and it's ok for that.

It's pulling things into 1st turn assaults or moving squads so only that sergeant or special weapon can be wounded by shooting that is cheesy.


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

yes but as stated several times over. every army has something uber cheesy..this just happens to be slightly cheesy and people are raising such a big stink over it....come on whats wrong with this picture here? does anyone not notice unkillable falcons, genestealers...a troop choice that rends?wtf? or how about the entire tau army?....except maybe the krot....or the vespid...its all cheesy...GW is cheesy I'm cheesy...whatever.. the game functions..theres not water on the grass so play ball.. man up and get your panties out of the wad their in ... i mean..atleast complain about something thats not thuroughly situational and happens 100% of the time.


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Pseudo said:


> It's pulling things into 1st turn assaults or moving squads so only that sergeant or special weapon can be wounded by shooting that is cheesy.


That's kind of what I was talking about. I see people manipulate the movement phase and their models within units all the time. It really bugs me that the Orc Nob with the PK is in the back of the unit far from danger to start with and then BAM, he's up front in the assault phase ready to rock. 

The reason they don't like this power is that it shows them what's wrong with what they've been doing all the time. They want the rules to work in their favor, not equally against them. So when your opponent gets to move your own models for you in a way they want, obviously they are going to disagree with it. 

It proved how broken the movement phase can be. Personally I avoid movement manipulation as best I can. But if I start seeing people screw around with it, I'll Lash the crap out of them if I can. Models should be locked as is, none of this; "My squad only move 6" forward so it doesn't matter that the PK Nob Model moved 12"".


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## Siege (Jan 18, 2008)

Syko515 said:


> ...or how about the entire tau army?....except maybe the krot....or the vespid...its all cheesy...


How the fuck is the entire Tau army cheesy? If you know what your up against you can exploit it strengths, sure, but not without exposing it's weakness. We have nice guns, we have skimmers, and battlesuits, so what? We don't have psychics, we don't have anything that can hold it's own in CC, apart from Kroot, and even then the Kroot are nothing special. 

The fact is if you field a cheesy Tau army without knowing what you are up against, your fucked. Okay I can bring a lot of railguns to the table, but unless you've got a bunch of tanks I can shoot, I've just wasted a lot of points and left the rest of my army lacking.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Actually Siege, I got the impression that he was being sarcastic as the list of cheesiness continued to spread to himself and GW, etc.


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## silvarius (Mar 21, 2008)

o.k i think we've realised lash is o.k now, so no need to argue. if you like arguing open an arguing thread.


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## Pandawithissues... (Dec 2, 2007)

I think the real issue with lash is that it can be taken in any army. If it was limited to slaanesh only armies it would be fine. If your opponent has a completely slaanesh army its cool. But if he has lash in his army full of beserkers for example, for no other reason than to use the mechanic, thats where the system fails. It becomes far from the spirit of the game, and that puts that player on my shitlist.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

I will be on your shitlist then Panda, as I have a Lash sorc in my all Tzeentch army. I can justify it by saying sorcs will congregate together most of the time but the reality is that there are rules and there is fluff and they don't generally line up all that well. If a World Eaters player dropped the same sorc in his army and used it against me I would not have a problem with it at all. That is the rules available and that is how the game is played.


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## Alexander_67 (May 5, 2007)

I dont tend to bitch much about psychic powers being able to deny them on a 5+/use hammer of the witches every turn and slaughter their casters. Its all in good fun. In fact i'm all pro these new badass psychic power rules we might actually get some more psykers around so i can actually justify taking my inquisitor. 

PS world eaters should not have psykers! Its just wrong! :no:


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## Siege (Jan 18, 2008)

My bad, I'm just sick of people screaming cheese at my army, they used to mock my Dark Angels and now they bitch about my Tau. 

I agree with Wraith here, if the codex allows it, then nobody really has the right to say it shouldn't be done.


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## Casmiricus (Mar 6, 2008)

Siege said:


> I agree with Wraith here, if the codex allows it, then nobody really has the right to say it shouldn't be done.


What about Catachans having heavy artillery? They just don't use it. It's... unfluffy. Like Winston Churchill smoking a cigarette, there's just something WRONG about it.

World Eaters/Khornate armies should NOT have psykers.
Tzeneetch and Nurgle should NOT march together, nor should Khorne and Slaneesh.
Tyranids should have lots of little gribblies, NOT 8 'zillas.
Catachans should NOT have heavy artillery.
Dark Eldar should NOT be holding signs with the 'peace' symbol on them. (I know a guy who did this.)

It's just Wrong! Wrong I say!


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

See that right there is a point of view I just don't understand. I have heard people go on about fluff this and fluff that but fluff has no bearing on the actual game. If it did, then a 5 man SM squad could destroy a full 2000pt army of any kind with impunity and that is not the case. I had a guy tell me to my face that I was a cheating bitch, semi-seriously, at my local club because I include a Slaanesh sorc in my Thousand Sons army. It never ceases to amaze me when someone across the table from me purposefully limits themselves in their armylist in order to remain 'fluffy' and then bitches and moans about it when others don't do the same. Or when they lose because of said choices.

I am not a powergamer either. I use a Lash sorc, yes, but you will never see me use 2. Or 2 DP's with it. Same as you will never see me field 9 Broadsides, or 3 Hammerhead, or any of the other ridiculous combos that some books allow. But neither will you ever see me limit myself and allow a massive weakness in my army because of 'fluff'. That makes no sense on any level. If you played baseball, would you step up to the plate with a broken bat or out in the field with a hole in the glove? No. So why would you knowingly do the same in this game and more importantly why would you get bent when others don't?


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## silvarius (Mar 21, 2008)

The Wraithlord said:


> See that right there is a point of view I just don't understand. I have heard people go on about fluff this and fluff that but fluff has no bearing on the actual game. If it did, then a 5 man SM squad could destroy a full 2000pt army of any kind with impunity and that is not the case. I had a guy tell me to my face that I was a cheating bitch, semi-seriously, at my local club because I include a Slaanesh sorc in my Thousand Sons army. It never ceases to amaze me when someone across the table from me purposefully limits themselves in their armylist in order to remain 'fluffy' and then bitches and moans about it when others don't do the same. Or when they lose because of said choices.
> 
> I am not a powergamer either. I use a Lash sorc, yes, but you will never see me use 2. Or 2 DP's with it. Same as you will never see me field 9 Broadsides, or 3 Hammerhead, or any of the other ridiculous combos that some books allow. But neither will you ever see me limit myself and allow a massive weakness in my army because of 'fluff'. That makes no sense on any level. If you played baseball, would you step up to the plate with a broken bat or out in the field with a hole in the glove? No. So why would you knowingly do the same in this game and more importantly why would you get bent when others don't?


i completly agree and if you go on my latest posting (at time of writing) on 'can you take GK's in a corrupt Inquisitor army', you will see i've just let loose my fury about people who play fluffhammer, not warhammer, i also apoligize about my fury, it happens sometimes.(luckily i din't break the computer screen this time.


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## Pandawithissues... (Dec 2, 2007)

> I will be on your shitlist then Panda


Damn wraith, this is a sad day. I guess I'll just tread lightly around this.

In my opinion though, just because you can do something, doesnt mean you should.
Just because someone else does it, doesn't mean you should follow.

To continue the baseball analogy wraith posted earlier, You might not step on the field with a broken bat, but if everyone else is on steroids and you are not because of moral opposition, you can hold your head high and know that you didn't damage the spirit of the game with your actions.

I'd argue that if you arn't interested in the fluff, then you might as well play chess instead of warhammer.

I play to tell a story, you may play to win, thats your perogative.

Wraith, I have to say I'm hurt by this comment more than any other:



> But neither will you ever see me limit myself and allow a massive weakness in my army because of 'fluff'. That makes no sense on any level


Because on my level, allowing a weakness to remain in the spirit of the game IS, in many ways, my game. If us fluff gamers are expected to see your viewpoint, you should see and respect ours. Too be honest though, its no worse than my shitlist comment earlier. I dunno, I guess I just thought you were better than me , and would be above such petty divisive comments 


EDIT This i cannot condone:



> . I had a guy tell me to my face that I was a cheating bitch, semi-seriously, at my local club because I include a Slaanesh sorc in my Thousand Sons army.


This is why it is important to make sure you play people with the same interests in the game as you.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> Wraith, I have to say I'm hurt by this comment more than any other:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah but take a look at that statement again. I may not allow a massive weakness for fluff reasons but neither will I put in options just because they are super powerful or what others might call cheese (Lash is the exception, just too good to pass up and makes sense in a psychic power based army imho). I would say that I am a middle of the road type guy in the whole fluff vs powerlist arguement. After all, I won't take Berzerkers in a Thousand Sons list because it just doesn't seem right but I will take the Lash sorc because that makes sense to me. Kind of the same thing as when I say I don't get it when others say that they can't field a cult Legion with the new book simply because there are no actual 'legion' rules for them and I say 'well you can give them all the Icon of Tzeentch, makes them a Tson list to me'. 

The point I was trying to make above was concerning the fluff nuts who go a bit too far and leave MASSIVE weaknesses in their armies because of fluff and then whine when they have a hard time winning or accuse me of being a powergamer because those weaknesses are not present in my list. If someone wants to play a completely fluffy list, cool, I can respect that. But when said person loses BECAUSE of the list, I expect that person to shut the fuck up and NOT take it out on me because I have no desire to shaft myself, at least not to that extent.


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

Chaos have insanely good Psychic Powers its another reason why Khorne is at a Disadvantage purely because they have less options its like make Psykers way to powerful so that the Khorne Lord feels a bit shit.


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## Vanchet (Feb 28, 2008)

I quite like the power ^^(being a slaanesh player of coures ^^; )But I still have problems performing the power with so many anti-physic back fires (physic hoods, runes of warding, Perils of the warp,Null field generators and etc) also the thing aboot the power is that you don't even need to use it to get people closer to you, you can also move them away (so you can move orks back so you can get more shots at them with your otther forces ^^)


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## Shadowfane (Oct 17, 2007)

Revelations said:


> That's kind of what I was talking about. I see people manipulate the movement phase and their models within units all the time. It really bugs me that the Orc Nob with the PK is in the back of the unit far from danger to start with and then BAM, he's up front in the assault phase ready to rock.
> 
> The reason they don't like this power is that it shows them what's wrong with what they've been doing all the time. They want the rules to work in their favor, not equally against them. So when your opponent gets to move your own models for you in a way they want, obviously they are going to disagree with it.
> 
> It proved how broken the movement phase can be. Personally I avoid movement manipulation as best I can. But if I start seeing people screw around with it, I'll Lash the crap out of them if I can. Models should be locked as is, none of this; "My squad only move 6" forward so it doesn't matter that the PK Nob Model moved 12"".


Just a quick point on this (I know, I know, several weeks late...)

This is bollocks. You can only move your model up to the limit of its movement allowance, and no further. This really, really hacks me off when I see people doing it, exactly for the reason stated above. You want your Nob at the back, protected? Fine, but the turn before you assault, if you want him at the front, your mob's moving about 2 inches that turn.
Not having a go at you, by the way, just pointing out my views 

In terms of the powergaming/fluffy army, I generally nowadays build my armies to themes - I'll design a theme, then spend points on models that fit that theme - whilst I won't deliberately gimp my army, the units assigned to it, first and foremost, will fit that theme before any other considerations come into it.

To be perfectly honest, most of my armies nowadays are build on the premise of "That'd look utterly cool on the battlefield..." :grin:

_Edited for atrocious spelling_


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

Revelations said:


> That's kind of what I was talking about. I see people manipulate the movement phase and their models within units all the time. It really bugs me that the Orc Nob with the PK is in the back of the unit far from danger to start with and then BAM, he's up front in the assault phase ready to rock.
> 
> The reason they don't like this power is that it shows them what's wrong with what they've been doing all the time. They want the rules to work in their favor, not equally against them. So when your opponent gets to move your own models for you in a way they want, obviously they are going to disagree with it.
> 
> It proved how broken the movement phase can be. Personally I avoid movement manipulation as best I can. But if I start seeing people screw around with it, I'll Lash the crap out of them if I can. Models should be locked as is, none of this; "My squad only move 6" forward so it doesn't matter that the PK Nob Model moved 12"".


At the risk of derailing this topic, if your opponent is moving their individual models like that it is CHEATING. A lot of the time, peope won't be strict about moving their individual models because they're trying to save time, but that sort of thing isn't fair play.

As far as the lash is concerned, driving enemy bikes through tree lines and getting enemy squads ready to line dance for your flamer templates is fair. It might be sporting to let your opponent move his own figures, though.

Edit: Doh, didn't notice Shadowbane's reply at the end.


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## Lore-Colten (Mar 28, 2008)

there not broken, ILL TELL YOU WHATS FUCKING BROKEN, AP3 BOLTERS? WTF!! and slow and purposeful (=P)


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> As far as the lash is concerned, driving enemy bikes through tree lines and getting enemy squads ready to line dance for your flamer templates is fair. It might be sporting to let your opponent move his own figures, though.


I ask my opponent to move his models. I don't like others picking up my models unless I say so therefore I won't do it to others.



> there not broken, ILL TELL YOU WHATS FUCKING BROKEN, AP3 BOLTERS? WTF!! and slow and purposeful (=P)


Not even close to on topic but care to explain that a bit more? After all, it isn't like I don't pay through the nose for said bolters .


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## Lore-Colten (Mar 28, 2008)

o, thats right, ypu play a dusty old tzeentch army...=\
well, it kindn't aint right that you get your hands on ap3 bolters thats negate power armour (and 4+ inv save) broken anyone?


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## Triumph Of Man (Dec 27, 2007)

Lore-Colten said:


> o, thats right, ypu play a dusty old tzeentch army...=
> well, it kindn't aint right that you get your hands on ap3 bolters thats negate power armour (and 4+ inv save) broken anyone?


Which leaves them at a massive disadvantage against any GEQ army.

AP3? Who cares, the regular bolters did the same trick. So you're paying through the nose for no benefit.

Against MEQ armies? Well if you sit your men in heavy cover, you're getting that 4+ against incoming fire for nothing, and you can always exploit the fact that the Tsons are much weaker in combat.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Tzeench isn't broken. Pure Tzeench is pretty weak to be honest and I've never found a reason to put Tsons in any chaos list I've put together.

Lash is broken. Horribly, disgustingly broken. I say this as the guy using two lash casters in my army in the Vassal tourney, which I happen to be winning. Lash is stupid. It feels like I'm cheating every time I use it.

It's a bit sad with all these people talking about how it's fine, I'm just moving their assault unit closer. No, it is not fine. I am moving your assault unit closer so I can charge it with a daemon prince, sorceror, khorne berzerkers and termies with mark of slaanesh. Your assault unit dies three times over before it even gets to attack and my guys all get to advance up the table by a 6" assault move and a D6" massacre move.

It's going to be even worse in 5th, with all missions based around capturing objectives. Only infantry troops will be able to score, so only things that can be lashed away from objectives on the last turn. Brilliant.

Any time I need to illustrate when playtesters haven't earned their pay I point to this power. This power alone makes all the work GW did to balance out the chaos codex redundant. Iron warriors and Siren daemon bomb were not as bad as lash.


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## Lore-Colten (Mar 28, 2008)

welll, i just recently played 1ksons with a spm army, i just got completely crushed *he split his forces in 2, and slowly killed everything with 24"*


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Someguy said:


> Any time I need to illustrate when playtesters haven't earned their pay I point to this power. This power alone makes all the work GW did to balance out the chaos codex redundant. Iron warriors and Siren daemon bomb were not as bad as lash.


Well what wouold you rather face?

2 Models that can perform lash, which can be stopped by Anti-Psyker gear?

Or fighting a single model, who may botch his Minor Psychic power from the start nullifying his entire army? 

Or 7 Heavy Support Choices, which can only be stopped by their destruction?

I'd say the Siren Bomb was about on par with Lash, but Iron Warriors showed what's wrong with the game, not the Codex.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

In all seriousness, lash is worse.

I've been playing with my Tau on the tournament scene for years now. A couple of years back you would face Ulthwe or Iron warriors in a majority of top table games and they would walk away with 12 of the top 20 places at a GT between them. Now that is no longer the case and lash is the replacement.

What anti-psyker gear do my Tau have that works against lash? That's right, none at all. The same goes for many armies.

The ability to use lash at will cannot be beaten by infantry armies without a counter. Even a psychic hood is nowhere near reliable enough to defeat double lash. The only truly effective technique is to put all your valuable infantry in transports, but even then they can blow up one transport, lash the guys inside forwards and charge.

There's just way too much that a good player can do when he has control of his opponent's figures. The result is that his own assault troops go way faster than they would if they weren't constantly being fed enemy units, objectives cannot be held, heavy weapon teams are moved to where they can't see anything, units are bunched for aoe, and many, many other things.


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Haven't we been over this? You're upset because Lash is powerful against a Tau army? Can I be upset because a single Eldar item breaks the foundations of a Tzeentch army? Can I be upset because Tau have several units that can move, shoot and then move again before their turn is done? Some would consider that broken, because at least Lash has counters, JSJ does not. Can I be upset because while Lash can get me into combat, that dang Monolith can remove you front combat? 

Lash is the Chaos version of Fleet of Foot. It allows the Chaos assault troops the oppertunity to charge whereas they normally couldn't. It's the Chaos version of Rail Guns, the Chaos version of Doom, the Chaos version of a Red painit job. 

Everything in this game is cheesy and everything has a counter... let's do Lash. I'll just choose one random thing every army can do to counter it, while some have several counters. 

Tyranid... Shadow of the Warp
Eldar... Runes
Space Marines... Hood
Witch Hunters... Hood
Chaos... Lash
Daemons... Blessing of the Blood God

Oh, just thought of something else. It's a shooting power. Using Tau as the example, if it's an MC, you can always shoot at him. If it's a IC, by the time he get's close enough, you should be able to shoot at him. See that assault squad getting ready to capitalize on the Lash? Shoot them. 

In all honesty, I think it's poor someone can't work around a single power. And on the other side, I think it's poor when someone can't work without a single power. It's a one trick pony, that doesn't work 100% of the time and has numerous counters.

Now think of the Iron Warriors. Yep... they would have slaughtered a Lash army.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

I'm not annoyed about lash because it screws my tau with no way around it, though that is the case. I'm not going to be using my Tau for much longer anyway simply because I'm getting a bit bored of them.

You suggest that I shoot the guys who cast lash. Actually, you may be surprised to find that this course of action had already occured to me. The problem is that double lash gives my opponent's two daemon princes a near-guaranteed first turn charge against me. It becomes hard to shoot enemies who are already in close combat with you before you even have a turn.

For the record I don't think iron warriors would have had a hope vs lash. Most of the units in old IW armies were infantry type, obliterators and 6 man las plas squads mostly, and they would be lashable. Again, the IW guy is going to have a couple of daemon princes, probably not alone, beating on his army right from turn 1.

Your list of counters to lash is mostly full of rubbish, but let's go through it.

_Tyranid... Shadow of the Warp._ No. Lash usually works anyway, double lash still works loads. This reduces the reliability of lash a little, but it will still work almost all the time.
_Eldar... Runes._ This is probably the only effective counter to lash, and any psychic powers.
_Space Marines... Hood._ Not too bad. Marines are forced to take an epistolary librarian for their HQ, who costs more than a sorceror and has less good powers just to have a 10/36 chance of blocking the power, but ok.
_Witch Hunters... Hood._ I have to take an inquisitor lord for the same 10/36 chance? Hahahahahaha.
_Chaos... Lash._ Not exactly a counter but sure, everyone could just play double lash and the problem would be solved to some degree. If you can't beat em...
_Daemons... Blessing of the Blood God._ And if you don't play khorne?

So that just leaves Tau, necrons, guard, dark eldar and black templars with no counter to lash whatsoever, even by your standards. Fine.

Lash is not like other powers because it defines an entirely new playstyle for the army which can be done only with lash. Other psychic powers may be good, but they do not compare. There is no such thing as a double mind war, double fota, double warptime army, etc. Those powers all do some interesting stuff, but they don't change how your army plays altogether, so even if you did happen to include two of these guys that woulndn't be the basis of your army. Lash is unique in that it can be used as the basis for an extremely powerful army build, to which no effective counter exists.


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Someguy said:


> You suggest that I shoot the guys who cast lash. Actually, you may be surprised to find that this course of action had already occured to me. The problem is that double lash gives my opponent's two daemon princes a near-guaranteed first turn charge against me. It becomes hard to shoot enemies who are already in close combat with you before you even have a turn.


So you have the same annoyance toward anything that can get a first turn charge? And yes, there are many things that can.


Someguy said:


> For the record I don't think iron warriors would have had a hope vs lash. Most of the units in old IW armies were infantry type, obliterators and 6 man las plas squads mostly, and they would be lashable. Again, the IW guy is going to have a couple of daemon princes, probably not alone, beating on his army right from turn 1.


Why would any Iron Warriors player have Oblits that close to the enemy? But the idea has intrigue me enough to test...


Someguy said:


> Your list of counters to lash is mostly full of rubbish, but let's go through it.
> 
> _Tyranid... Shadow of the Warp._ No. Lash usually works anyway, double lash still works loads. This reduces the reliability of lash a little, but it will still work almost all the time.
> _Eldar... Runes._ This is probably the only effective counter to lash, and any psychic powers.
> ...


You wanted a counter. You didn't say what type of counter you wanted. SotW reduces the chances of use, which is an affective counter (giving it a 50% failure rate does not equal "works almost all of the time") . I also disagree with your math in regards to Hood. At this point you're nit picking counters that "will" work against Lash. 


Someguy said:


> So that just leaves Tau, necrons, guard, dark eldar and black templars with no counter to lash whatsoever, even by your standards. Fine.


Oops, must have been side tracked...

Tau. JSJ. Don't give the Lasher LoS. 
Necrons. Teleport back out of the Charge. Pariahs also work.
Guard. Assassins, or just use Tanks up front to block LoS.
Dark Eldar. No idea, don't know the codex, but from my understanding they have some gnarly H2H troops that wouldn't mind getting lashed anyway while the rest are the usually on fast moving transports, that cannot be lashed. 
Black Templars. No hood? Not familiar with their Codex either. 

Care to nitpick those too? Or would you like to admit every army has ways to work around every tactic, some are just better at it then others. 


Someguy said:


> Lash is not like other powers because it defines an entirely new playstyle for the army which can be done only with lash. Other psychic powers may be good, but they do not compare. There is no such thing as a double mind war, double fota, double warptime army, etc. Those powers all do some interesting stuff, but they don't change how your army plays altogether, so even if you did happen to include two of these guys that woulndn't be the basis of your army. Lash is unique in that it can be used as the basis for an extremely powerful army build, to which no effective counter exists.


Eh? Just because you've never seen doubling up on powers doesn't mean they don't exist. Almost every Tzeentch army uses several Warp Times in a single turn. What's stopping you from taking more than a single Farseer and doubling up on Mind War? 

Lash can also be completely pointless against other army biulds; Mech Eldar, Assault Blood Angels, Genestealer Heavy Tyranid, Guard Tank Companies, Orc Hordes, etc. You're saying that Lash is the end all be all of the game, when it clearly isn't.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Double lash gives virtual auto-win vs enemy assault armies like blood angels and ork hordes. If you can't see why, I can't be bothered explaining it.

Your new list of counters confuses me to be honest. Pariahs and assassins, tanks to block los to all the infantry in a guard army? Have you actually played a game of 40k before?

I kind of get the pariah idea. You put your pariahs within 12" of the sorceror and his LD drops a bit. Obviously there are some flaws to this plan, like the fact that lash has a 24" range and is on a guy with wings, the fact that nobody actually has pariahs in their army and one or two others. Teleporting out after a combat that has probably involved a chaos IC or two, plus various squads that are all along for the "ride" of the free 6" assault and d6" massacre move, may not work.

Anyway yes, various counters do exist to lash, some more effective than others, but none which can be relied upon.

Fully-mech armies are lash-proof, at least until the chaos guy downs a transport or two, but the chaos player still doesn't really lose anything by taking double lash princes. Slaanesh princes are just about as good against mech as any HQ available to a chaos player - which is not very good, but you have to have an HQ anyway.

That's the real problem with lash. There's absolutely no reason for taking an HQ who isn't a sorceror or daemon prince with lash. They are clearly better, and nearly always cheaper, than any of the alternatives. That is bad codex design.


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Someguy said:


> Double lash gives virtual auto-win vs enemy assault armies like blood angels and ork hordes. If you can't see why, I can't be bothered explaining it.


Now that’s a blatant cop out. If you can’t see why a PK wielding Nob screen by 20+ Orks or a Rending Death Company unit won’t rock a Demon Prince then you certainly can’t explain that position. If you’re talking about Lashing them away, then their Demon Prince is being less than half useful. 


Someguy said:


> Your new list of counters confuses me to be honest. Pariahs and assassins, tanks to block los to all the infantry in a guard army? Have you actually played a game of 40k before?


A few actually. Lash can’t be used on Vehicles. Vehicles also block LoS. And the enemy players turn, your Tanks Block his LoS. On your turn, you move your tanks so they don’t block your LoS. Pretty simple tactics don’t you think? 


Someguy said:


> I kind of get the pariah idea. You put your pariahs within 12" of the sorceror and his LD drops a bit. Obviously there are some flaws to this plan, like the fact that lash has a 24" range and is on a guy with wings, the fact that nobody actually has pariahs in their army and one or two others. Teleporting out after a combat that has probably involved a chaos IC or two, plus various squads that are all along for the "ride" of the free 6" assault and d6" massacre move, may not work.


So you’re willing to argue probabilities against Lash counters but not for Lash counters? Go ahead, Lash the Pariahs into Melee with the Prince, that would be a fun sight. 


Someguy said:


> Anyway yes, various counters do exist to lash, some more effective than others, but none which can be relied upon.


Nor can Lash be relied upon given all the counters. 


Someguy said:


> Fully-mech armies are lash-proof, at least until the chaos guy downs a transport or two, but the chaos player still doesn't really lose anything by taking double lash princes. Slaanesh princes are just about as good against mech as any HQ available to a chaos player - which is not very good, but you have to have an HQ anyway.


Nor does the opposing player lose anything for taking a full mech army… hm…


Someguy said:


> That's the real problem with lash. There's absolutely no reason for taking an HQ who isn't a sorceror or daemon prince with lash. They are clearly better, and nearly always cheaper, than any of the alternatives. That is bad codex design.


Daemon Weapons. IC status. Joining units. Bike mounts. Vehicle transportation. Points Costs. Special characters. I think your point is a tad off. The Codex provides options. If you want to talk poor codex design, how about making a tougher Farseer with more powers than a normal one can take with extra special rules that still costs cheaper than all others; now that’s poor design.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Revelations said:


> Now that’s a blatant cop out. If you can’t see why a PK wielding Nob screen by 20+ Orks or a Rending Death Company unit won’t rock a Demon Prince then you certainly can’t explain that position. If you’re talking about Lashing them away, then their Demon Prince is being less than half useful.


The daemon prince is part of an army. He does not charge 20 orks alone. Other orks are unable to help because they can't keep up with their lashed friends, and/or are lashed away.



Revelations said:


> A few actually. Lash can’t be used on Vehicles. Vehicles also block LoS. And the enemy players turn, your Tanks Block his LoS. On your turn, you move your tanks so they don’t block your LoS. Pretty simple tactics don’t you think?


 If you have an infantry guard army, you will have a tricky time fielding enough tanks to block LOS to all the infantry. If you do, these infantry do not fire, which kind of negates the whole reason they are there. You can hide all your infantry in chimeras, which again kind of makes them pointless.



Revelations said:


> So you’re willing to argue probabilities against Lash counters but not for Lash counters? Go ahead, Lash the Pariahs into Melee with the Prince, that would be a fun sight.


Somehow I was thinking that pariahs were immune to psychic powers but they aren't. I thought that this was your plan but apparently you just want to walk your pariahs within 12" of a chaos army and have them stand there to reduce the sorceror or DP's LD. 

Obviously, a daemon prince could take quite a lot of pariahs in CC if he wanted to. A DP costs less than 5 pariahs do, and it takes an average of 16 pariah attacks to kill him. Pariahs have 1 attack while the DP kills on average around 2 pariahs a turn, give or take. Even if all the DP does is eat the pariahs, he has still got his points back. Pariahs can't even be teleported out.

The search for a counter continues.



Revelations said:


> Nor does the opposing player lose anything for taking a full mech army… hm…


Mech does not seem to be a guaranteed defence. I've only used my double lash army in the Vassal tourney. 3 games, all won, two of them with max VPs. One of these was against hespithe's all mech eldar, full of holo tanks and so on, and controlled by a very good player.

Mech suffers a bit because the chaos guy can usually kill a transport or two if he wants, then eat the squad that falls out. Obviously you do need to build the rest of the chaos army to be able to deal with tanks, but that isn't so hard.



Revelations said:


> Daemon Weapons.


Suck.


Revelations said:


> IC status.


Doesn't work any more in 5th edition. You can still be targetted even if an IC.


Revelations said:


> Joining units. Bike mounts. Vehicle transportation.


All available to sorcerors. There's a debate between sorcerors and princes, it's true.


Revelations said:


> Points Costs.


Lash is one of the cheapest psychic powers and Slaanesh is the cheapest mark. A sorceror with lash is only 125 points, while something like a khorne lord with a daemon wep is 140, before other upgrades are applied to either.


Revelations said:


> Special characters.


Some of the special chars are good, just not as good as sorcerors and DPs with lash.



Revelations said:


> I think your point is a tad off. The Codex provides options. If you want to talk poor codex design, how about making a tougher Farseer with more powers than a normal one can take with extra special rules that still costs cheaper than all others; now that’s poor design.


Eldrad is also pretty unbalanced, and probably more so in 5th. He isn't cheaper than a basic farseer of course, but many people think he is more than worth his points.

The point of Lash is it gives you massive amounts of board control, not just that it's a good way of getting a daemon prince into CC. It does do that, sure, but it does a whole lot more.


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## Vashtek (Nov 2, 2007)

My biggest problem with lash is just that I really don't like my opponent moving my stuff about. 40k is meant to be a game where people take in turns to move their army and try to outmanouvre each other to get the best shot or into close combat. If the other guy can move my stuff it just seems intrinsically wrong.

Also, its the realism thing (I realise I really shouldn't bring this up in a 40k discussion but here goes). 

Say I am an ork storm boy. I jump forward 12" and go D6" more due to my special rule. I then charge 6" and wipe out some unit and consolidate. I have gone 18" +d6" + my consolidate move.

It is then the opponents go. He lashes the ork stormboy unit twice (or even more in a large game) to move me 4d6" then assaults me, beats me in combat and I fall back making a total of 18" +5d6"+ my consolidate and fall back moves (an average of around 35" but this could easily be nearer 50" and potentially far more) in my turn and his.


Now a genetically modified superhuman, running towards the enemy as fast as he can (although not getting within 6" of the enemy), in the same time period moves a total of 6". Does this not seem a little wrong? I mean the ork is moving a zillion times faster! What is going on with the poor orks metabolism?? How is it possible that he can move that fast??

I realise the scenario I have painted is a little far fetched, but you get my basic point.


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## Vanchet (Feb 28, 2008)

Well Black templars do have a counter on Psyhic powers (Abhor the Witch Vow) which allows a 5+save against Psyhic powers and Dark Eldar have Crucible of Malediction (each Psyker take a leadrship test failed and the model is auto dead) though it can only take out one psyker it's only 10 points for a brain mangaler.
Guardsmen have enough men to sacrificeor an armoured company can make lash useless and Tau? who cares you just get Tau mobile with devilfishs rather then the usual "we'll stand here till they're either dead or they get here and kill us all"
And as Revelations have said there's always a cheesy counter from another army that'll balance the game
such as:
Eldar Holo-Fields
Tzeench's 4+ invun and AP3 bolters
Tau's jump pack moves
Dark eldar's Goblet of spite (always hits on 3+ even vechiles+Haywire Grenades)
Space Marine's Psyhic Hood
Orks Power fist nob within a 20+unit
and the list goes on so IMO there's nothing truly beardy in there.


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

*First turn charge?*

Let me see if I understand this horrifying first turn charge...

The flying demon princes (or flying sorcerers) fly 12" forward and choose their lash targets. Assuming average luck, they can draw one unit 14" forward or two units 7" forward. They can then charge another 6" during the assault phase. End result: A slaanesh demon prince has a threat range of 20-30" (about 25"). Combined, that can be extended out another 7-12" if the other prince is suitably located.

The perfect setup would, I suppose, have one prince draw a unit about 6" from the line, and the the second prince draw another a bit closer so that the prince and a pack of raptors can wipe it out. Get a lucky roll on your massacre moves and everything is great. Get unlucky and find out how much rapid fire your opponent has available. An unlucky overkill or leaving a pocket of survivors 3" away from the fighting would be just as bad...

What can you possibly do about that? Have you considered something as horrible as deploy your infantry about 6" further back if the unit's going to be near the princes/sorcerers?

I can see how that might catch people off guard, the first time. But I don't see how it's worse than losing tanks to an opponent getting lots of sixes the first round.


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