# Why are my faveourite units hated?



## Balkor Wolf

So ive spent a while looking through the CSM Army lists and I cant help but notice how many people completely disregard a large portion of the options available to Chaos marines. Below is a list of what i consider my faveourite units and what people generally seem to say about them.

HQs

If im honest people dont say anything bad against the HQ units of chaos, but it seems nearly every list I see that doesnt include two HQ units people always suggest a demon prince. I understand how its stats are awesome, especially when comparing its price to Chaos Lords/Sorcerers. With the latter two though you have the options of a 2+ save (Only 15 points extra for the sorcerer), personal icons for terminators and demons and some pretty awesome extras for getting around the battlefield quickly (Who doesnt want to charge into battle on a Juggernaut?)

Elites

First up on this list is possibly my favourite unit in the Chaos Army, Terminators. Whenever I see them in an army list some of the first comments will be 'Drop them to three guys, give them meltas and call them termiscides' Terminators should be a constant threat to an enemy during the whole battle. Again a 2+ save can cause a real problem for the enemy either they ignore them and be on the receiving end of some pretty heavy fire or focus a lot of attention to actually get wounds.

Next are Possessed Chaos Marines... Nothing screams chaos out more than one letting himself be possessed by a monster and look pretty badass in the process. Im pretty sure against an unexperienced enemy they may seem like more of a threat than they actually are and tie up specialist units to deal with them.

Finally dreadnoughts and the usual replies of 'Arent you scared of rolling a 1?' Am i hell scared of rolling a 1. I chose chaos because I like the unpredictable stuff, so what if my dreadnought fires a lascannon into the back of my shiny new Land Raider, im sure it will cause a few laughs and you wont always roll a 1.

Troops

Not too much is said about Troops negatively, Chaos have a hell of a wide choice of scoring units which can only be a good thing, my favourite of which are the Thousand Sons. People seem so really dislike these guys but I see it as a cheap version of a sorcerer and a bodyguard of drones that will destroy most heavy infantry. They seem perfect to sit on objectives on your half of the table.

Heavy Support

My main problem here is when people put down the defiler. Sure for the same cost you can get two obliterators for the same cost but Defilers are walking doom spiders of untold doom. They look epic and really need a rule that anyone who has line of sight with it should be forced to take a moral test.


Sorry if it seems like im whining just it bugs me that so many people refuse to use such brilliant models because they arent completely perfect. But what do you guys think? Any models that you really love but rarely makes it into your army list? No matter what army you collect.


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## Pathfinder201

POSSESED ARE THE BEST!!!! Just had to say that : ) They are complelty understated and underestimated. I compleltly agree with your points


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## Warsmith Drewgie

I love my possessed. With an Icon of Nurgle they can be fairly hard to take down and deal out a decent amount of pain. I like Oblits but defilers are really awesome too. I run my defilers with 2 extra close combat arms and lay down ordnance as I move forward. If your battle cannon gets destroyed you just fleet in your shooting phase and assault with a crap load of DCCW attacks. I agree with all of your points except the Dreadnought just because there are so many other more reliable and cool elites I would rather take.


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## KhainiteAssassin

the green should help you view some of my thoughts on the matters you have brought up:



Balkor Wolf said:


> So ive spent a while looking through the CSM Army lists and I cant help but notice how many people completely disregard a large portion of the options available to Chaos marines. Below is a list of what i consider my faveourite units and what people generally seem to say about them.
> 
> HQs
> 
> If im honest people dont say anything bad against the HQ units of chaos, but it seems nearly every list I see that doesnt include two HQ units people always suggest a demon prince. I understand how its stats are awesome, especially when comparing its price to Chaos Lords/Sorcerers. With the latter two though you have the options of a 2+ save (Only 15 points extra for the sorcerer), personal icons for terminators and demons and some pretty awesome extras for getting around the battlefield quickly (Who doesnt want to charge into battle on a Juggernaut?)
> 
> Im pretty sure the reasoning here is simple, the Daemon prince, for 10 points, gets a huge stat boost over a sorc, and Eternal Warrior. for the lord, the lord is not nearly as good without pumping many more points into him then you would the daemon prince, just to make the lord have the same damage output as the DP.
> 
> Elites
> 
> First up on this list is possibly my favourite unit in the Chaos Army, Terminators. Whenever I see them in an army list some of the first comments will be 'Drop them to three guys, give them meltas and call them termiscides' Terminators should be a constant threat to an enemy during the whole battle. Again a 2+ save can cause a real problem for the enemy either they ignore them and be on the receiving end of some pretty heavy fire or focus a lot of attention to actually get wounds.
> 
> there is Logic in your thought about a 2+ armor save, but let me point out AP2 weaponry, or power weapons, for the cost of your terminators, most armies can take a single squad of Elite unit killers, which will rip through your 2+ armor save and leave you wondering why you payed so many points for a unit so easily killed.
> 
> Next are Possessed Chaos Marines... Nothing screams chaos out more than one letting himself be possessed by a monster and look pretty badass in the process. Im pretty sure against an unexperienced enemy they may seem like more of a threat than they actually are and tie up specialist units to deal with them.
> 
> i like possessed myself, but the fact they rely on a random roll to boost their abilities have no ranged attack, and their stat line is actually only slightly better then your troops, for almost double the cost, is the reason alot of people Defer away from the possessed.
> 
> Finally dreadnoughts and the usual replies of 'Arent you scared of rolling a 1?' Am i hell scared of rolling a 1. I chose chaos because I like the unpredictable stuff, so what if my dreadnought fires a lascannon into the back of my shiny new Land Raider, im sure it will cause a few laughs and you wont always roll a 1.
> 
> great for friendly games, shitty when your trying to win in tournaments, thats all I have to say about this
> 
> Troops
> 
> Not too much is said about Troops negatively, Chaos have a hell of a wide choice of scoring units which can only be a good thing, my favourite of which are the Thousand Sons. People seem so really dislike these guys but I see it as a cheap version of a sorcerer and a bodyguard of drones that will destroy most heavy infantry. They seem perfect to sit on objectives on your half of the table.
> 
> most who warn away from any of the specialty marines (noise, cult, TS, or zerkers) due so for their higher point cost with minimal improvements upon the unit. all of them have their place, but due to issues with the point costs, being a huge hinderance to non troop choices you could be taking instead.
> 
> Heavy Support
> 
> My main problem here is when people put down the defiler. Sure for the same cost you can get two obliterators for the same cost but Defilers are walking doom spiders of untold doom. They look epic and really need a rule that anyone who has line of sight with it should be forced to take a moral test.
> 
> dont know what to tell you here, the defilier is ok, but its very nature of it being strong with a battle cannon and 2 DCCWs directly makes it a huge target, it being an AV 12 walker, it becomes very easy to kill if you focus a few AT shots into it, where as obliterators, a single AT weapon wont easily kill 2 oblits, and the oblits can deal with multiple enemies fairly easily by changing their weapons at will.
> 
> 
> Sorry if it seems like im whining just it bugs me that so many people refuse to use such brilliant models because they arent completely perfect. But what do you guys think? Any models that you really love but rarely makes it into your army list? No matter what army you collect.


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## Balkor Wolf

You make a lot of good points Khainite, I guess most of it all relates to the competitiveness of the models, but still even if I do ever end up in a tournament I will still probably use most of the above when I can.


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## paolodistruggiuova

It's kinda obvious that if you post a list on a forum with Possessed for assault, Tsons for Objectives and Lascannon Predators for antitank people will answer you with, in order, Berserkers, Plagues and Oblits.

this doesnt mean that you cant use those 3 units but if you ask for list improvements on a forum the most cost effective units in the codex will always trump the less effective ones.

Nothing stop you from playing your army as you like, maybe you'll win 45% of games compared to 55% but it hardly matters if you play for fun


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## James Tiberius

paolodistruggiuova said:


> Nothing stop you from playing your army as you like, maybe you'll win 45% of games compared to 55% but it hardly matters if you play for fun


would be nice if people were more friendly about it though.

its not a matter of posting a list and people repeating the same old rubbish over and over, in allot of cases I've seen people basically laughing and insulting posters because of there choices (this being one of the reasons why on most GW related forums these days the army list section is completely dead)

when you post a list you don't wanna hear
"dump X it is shit, take Y because I do and I am better than you because I went to a tournament once and lost"

it would be nice to hear 
"I see you have taken X, are you aware Y would be a better choice for your pts?, but if you wanted to use X effectively here are my suggestions..."

but no, if your posting a list with units you enjoy you better be prepared with flame proof vests, as enjoyment is nothing compared to being a complete powergaming asswank, if your not posting with the goal of becomng thye number 1 tournie player in the world, then you had best not fucking post, because nobody these days gives a shit if you wanna post your fun list, nobody gives a shit if your only interested in playing your son in friendly games, if your not aiming to smash your opponent by turn 3 and rub there pathetic attempts at stopping you in there face, your not a 40k player.

THAT is the attitude of todays players, in 40k, fantasy, FoW anything, it doesn't matter what the game is, if they can reduce it to a boring game of "who is the bigger cock", they will, just so they can feel superior to a kid they just beat on.

I'd love to see some of these players play some of the newer systems that stop this though, they would be absolutely screwed


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## LukeValantine

James Tiberius said:


> would be nice if people were more friendly about it though.
> 
> its not a matter of posting a list and people repeating the same old rubbish over and over, in allot of cases I've seen people basically laughing and insulting posters because of there choices (this being one of the reasons why on most GW related forums these days the army list section is completely dead)
> 
> when you post a list you don't wanna hear
> "dump X it is shit, take Y because I do and I am better than you because I went to a tournament once and lost"
> 
> it would be nice to hear
> "I see you have taken X, are you aware Y would be a better choice for your pts?, but if you wanted to use X effectively here are my suggestions..."
> 
> but no, if your posting a list with units you enjoy you better be prepared with flame proof vests, as enjoyment is nothing compared to being a complete powergaming asswank, if your not posting with the goal of becomng thye number 1 tournie player in the world, then you had best not fucking post, because nobody these days gives a shit if you wanna post your fun list, nobody gives a shit if your only interested in playing your son in friendly games, if your not aiming to smash your opponent by turn 3 and rub there pathetic attempts at stopping you in there face, your not a 40k player.
> 
> THAT is the attitude of todays players, in 40k, fantasy, FoW anything, it doesn't matter what the game is, if they can reduce it to a boring game of "who is the bigger cock", they will, just so they can feel superior to a kid they just beat on.
> 
> I'd love to see some of these players play some of the newer systems that stop this though, they would be absolutely screwed


No offense but literally none of your reply makes a lick of sense. If people aren't to suggest officiant choices then what are they supposed to do when people post lists? Comment on the paint style? Seriously 90% of the reason for any given person posting a army list or strategy is to get feedback on its effectiveness. Take that away and there is very little for commentators to post on.

Long story short if your not playing to try to win then don't bother posting a list in a army list section because there is little to talk about if you are simply trying to have fun, after all no one can tell what units you like to play, or how they fit into your own mental representation of how your army should look. 

Also what in the name of god what do you mean by "I'd love to see some of these players play some of the newer systems that stop this though, they would be absolutely screwed" because no new system does away with the need for efficient and planned out army design. DE, GK, and even all the other gaming systems you mentioned punish those that ignore a armies internal symmetry and how units complement each others ability. (Just for chaos this isn't a factor as their is so much overlap in battlefield roles that one is hard pressed to recommend some choices over others)

I understand why some chaos players in 40k would be fed up with the obvious rock paper scissors of the codex, where one option is just a more efficient version of another unit. However you can't blame the gamers out there for telling gamers to shy away from choices that offer nothing to a list that can't be found in a equivalent unit for less points.

I mean calling people names for not recommending deliberately handicapping yourself with gimp list from a old codex says more about you as a gamer then the people you seek to criticize.


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## Vaz

Balkor Wolf said:


> You make a lot of good points Khainite, I guess most of it all relates to the competitiveness of the models, but still even if I do ever end up in a tournament I will still probably use most of the above when I can.


The problem comes though from wanting advice on your list - there's no point in giving advice if you're taking a list made of pretty models all simply whatever you own, or just a quick drag through the rules to make units you like the look of.

By its nature, the forums are designed around people maximising their lists strength, and for Chaos, it's now so old that every army has a counter to it, and unless it maximises its choices potential, it has very little chance of doing well aside from relying on those crutch units.

Other armies have a bit more flexibility in their design and allow "gimmick choices" after building the core of the army - like Space Marines taking Thunderfire Cannons, Command Squads, Assault Marines, etc, or variant tanks for the IG.


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## James Tiberius

LukeValantine said:


> No offense but literally none of your reply makes a lick of sense. If people aren't to suggest officiant choices then what are they supposed to do when people post lists?


as I already said


> when you post a list you don't wanna hear
> "dump X it is shit, take Y because I do and I am better than you because I went to a tournament once and lost"
> 
> it would be nice to hear
> "I see you have taken X, are you aware Y would be a better choice for your pts?, but if you wanted to use X effectively here are my suggestions..."





LukeValantine said:


> Long story short if your not playing to try to win then don't bother posting a list in a army list section


thats the attitude I'm refering to


LukeValantine said:


> DE, GK, and even all the other gaming systems you mentioned *punish those that ignore a armies internal symmetry and how units complement each others ability.*


that is correct...however 40k has nothing to do with complimenting other unit abilities, if you have a force filled with daemon princes, khorne bezerkers and obliterators your not complimenting abilities, your rolling more dice than your opponent to win, there are no tactics involved or complimenting abilities involved in a list like that, its simply weight of dice doing all the work for you.

you stick people like that into a napoleonic game or well written WWII game and its fun to watch them fail again and again and then call the game shite because spamming doesn't work


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## Samules

I am a little shocked to be saying this but I agree with you James. :laugh:

While the point of the army list sections is the most efficient lists I think there ought to be a "For Fun" of "Fluffy" army list section for people who don't want the same suggestions over and over and just want opinions on how to use the army they have already decided on for whatever reasons. I tried saying that once when I posted an army but since the people who frequent the list sections are focused on standardized tactics I got very little response. It would be nice to have a section for noncompetetive advice.


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## daxxglax

Balkor Wolf said:


> HQs
> 
> If im honest people dont say anything bad against the HQ units of chaos, but it seems nearly every list I see that doesnt include two HQ units people always suggest a demon prince. I understand how its stats are awesome, especially when comparing its price to Chaos Lords/Sorcerers. With the latter two though you have the options of a 2+ save (Only 15 points extra for the sorcerer), personal icons for terminators and demons and some pretty awesome extras for getting around the battlefield quickly (Who doesnt want to charge into battle on a Juggernaut?)
> 
> 
> 
> For just 10 points more, the Daemon Prince is a far better investment. Superior statline for one thing, not getting instakilled by a lowly powerfist sergeant for another. I do like Lords though, despite their nerf, and a tactic that has enjoyed some success for me is taking both a lord and a Prince. The Prince obviously attracts more attention/enemy firepower, while the Lord, while less effective, can still be a brutal surprise. A 2+ save isn't going to make that much of a difference, though, if your Lord's tangling with Power-weapon-armed foes. Also mounts are horrendously expensive for what they offer (if you factor in the marks as well). The options available to the lord are, overall, pretty generic. The only thing that really leaps out is the Daemon Weapon, which is fairly useful (except the Deathscreamer), but rather sobering is the fact that it can hurt you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First up on this list is possibly my favourite unit in the Chaos Army, Terminators. Whenever I see them in an army list some of the first comments will be 'Drop them to three guys, give them meltas and call them termiscides' Terminators should be a constant threat to an enemy during the whole battle. Again a 2+ save can cause a real problem for the enemy either they ignore them and be on the receiving end of some pretty heavy fire or focus a lot of attention to actually get wounds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That 2+ save is going to mean nil if they get into battle with Power-weaponers (which your opponent will make sure of if he's smart) or get shot at by Plasmas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Next are Possessed Chaos Marines... Nothing screams chaos out more than one letting himself be possessed by a monster and look pretty badass in the process. Im pretty sure against an unexperienced enemy they may seem like more of a threat than they actually are and tie up specialist units to deal with them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Unfortunately, you have a 50/50 chance of ending up with a duff power like Scouts, rather than, say, Rending or Power Weapons. If you were allowed multiple rolls, that'd be another matter. Also they do not have frag grenades, which is a big detriment to an assault unit. They're just too expensive for their unpredictability, and spending that many points to "tie up" an enemy is downright wasteful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Finally dreadnoughts and the usual replies of 'Arent you scared of rolling a 1?' Am i hell scared of rolling a 1. I chose chaos because I like the unpredictable stuff, so what if my dreadnought fires a lascannon into the back of my shiny new Land Raider, im sure it will cause a few laughs and you wont always roll a 1.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'll admit, I rather like Dreadnoughts and occasionally use 'em in friendly games. Never competitively though. Also their model is boxy, old, and ugly, so they don't have the Possessed's advantage of being cool-looking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not too much is said about Troops negatively, Chaos have a hell of a wide choice of scoring units which can only be a good thing, my favourite of which are the Thousand Sons. People seem so really dislike these guys but I see it as a cheap version of a sorcerer and a bodyguard of drones that will destroy most heavy infantry. They seem perfect to sit on objectives on your half of the table.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Thousand Sons are ridiculously expensive. Especially considering they have no anti-tank, a costly Sorcerer (with costly, mediocre powers), and they fact that they will only be effective against MEQs. God help you if you're facing a horde, or if the enemy gets into close combat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My main problem here is when people put down the defiler. Sure for the same cost you can get two obliterators for the same cost but Defilers are walking doom spiders of untold doom. They look epic and really need a rule that anyone who has line of sight with it should be forced to take a moral test.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Defilers are awesome. Maybe not so much in CC, but their Battle Cannon is pretty good.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry if it seems like im whining just it bugs me that so many people refuse to use such brilliant models because they arent completely perfect. But what do you guys think? Any models that you really love but rarely makes it into your army list? No matter what army you collect.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not that they're not perfect, it's just that they're, bay and large, overpriced and another unit would be more game/cost-effective
Click to expand...


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## Scotty80

Balkor Wolf said:


> So ive spent a while looking through the CSM Army lists and I cant help but notice how many people completely disregard a large portion of the options available to Chaos marines. Below is a list of what i consider my faveourite units and what people generally seem to say about them.
> 
> HQs
> 
> If im honest people dont say anything bad against the HQ units of chaos, but it seems nearly every list I see that doesnt include two HQ units people always suggest a demon prince. I understand how its stats are awesome, especially when comparing its price to Chaos Lords/Sorcerers. With the latter two though you have the options of a 2+ save (Only 15 points extra for the sorcerer), personal icons for terminators and demons and some pretty awesome extras for getting around the battlefield quickly (Who doesnt want to charge into battle on a Juggernaut?)
> 
> Elites
> 
> First up on this list is possibly my favourite unit in the Chaos Army, Terminators. Whenever I see them in an army list some of the first comments will be 'Drop them to three guys, give them meltas and call them termiscides' Terminators should be a constant threat to an enemy during the whole battle. Again a 2+ save can cause a real problem for the enemy either they ignore them and be on the receiving end of some pretty heavy fire or focus a lot of attention to actually get wounds.
> 
> Next are Possessed Chaos Marines... Nothing screams chaos out more than one letting himself be possessed by a monster and look pretty badass in the process. Im pretty sure against an unexperienced enemy they may seem like more of a threat than they actually are and tie up specialist units to deal with them.
> 
> Finally dreadnoughts and the usual replies of 'Arent you scared of rolling a 1?' Am i hell scared of rolling a 1. I chose chaos because I like the unpredictable stuff, so what if my dreadnought fires a lascannon into the back of my shiny new Land Raider, im sure it will cause a few laughs and you wont always roll a 1.
> 
> Troops
> 
> Not too much is said about Troops negatively, Chaos have a hell of a wide choice of scoring units which can only be a good thing, my favourite of which are the Thousand Sons. People seem so really dislike these guys but I see it as a cheap version of a sorcerer and a bodyguard of drones that will destroy most heavy infantry. They seem perfect to sit on objectives on your half of the table.
> 
> Heavy Support
> 
> My main problem here is when people put down the defiler. Sure for the same cost you can get two obliterators for the same cost but Defilers are walking doom spiders of untold doom. They look epic and really need a rule that anyone who has line of sight with it should be forced to take a moral test.
> 
> 
> Sorry if it seems like im whining just it bugs me that so many people refuse to use such brilliant models because they arent completely perfect. But what do you guys think? Any models that you really love but rarely makes it into your army list? No matter what army you collect.


 
It all depends on your gaming philosophy and what you and your opponents want from the game. Generally, I see it is a scale between competitive and "fluffy", with most players sitting somewhere inbetween.
It's obvious from your remarks that imagery and background matters as much as rules.
Competitively, some of the choices aren't the optimal for one reason or another (such as the 80pt "Sorcerer Tax" on Thousand Sons or random nature of Possessed). Generally, I find the internet forums attract more of the competitive edged players, probably due to it's nature of discussing and looking at how to improve their gaming.

At my local games club is at a is friendly competitive level, there are plenty of players who use un-optimal choices (my friend has a Tzeentch themed army with Thousand Sons, Dreadnoughts, etc and does fine).

In terms of nice models that rarely get used, I have to say the obvious answer of the Pyrovore. Lovely model, shame it's rules are so horrendous.


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## mcmuffin

James Tiberius said:


> that is correct...however 40k has nothing to do with complimenting other unit abilities, if you have a force filled with daemon princes, khorne bezerkers and obliterators your not complimenting abilities, your rolling more dice than your opponent to win, there are no tactics involved or complimenting abilities involved in a list like that, its simply weight of dice doing all the work for you.
> 
> you stick people like that into a napoleonic game or well written WWII game and its fun to watch them fail again and again and then call the game shite because spamming doesn't work


Wild and unfounded assumptions right there, coming from some one who0 clearly has a spite for competitive players, or _Power gaming asswanks_ as we are sometimes known. Daemon princes are shite, let's face it. a 3+ save means that they fall down to bolters. Berzerkers are smeh at best, sure they have a bucket of attacks with good WS, but get them into combat with more than one unit during the game and your opponent has clearly failed at being any good or you are a fucking tactical genius. Weight of dice has nothing to do with it. A good player can take a shit list and dismantle bad players with good lists. Must be because of dice eh

You must clearly just come on here aiming to insult and troll as many people as possible .

Have a nice day


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## TheKingElessar

As stated several times already in this thread - there is no reason to post an army list except to ask for advice in making it more cost-efficient and therefore effective and competitive. If that grates on you, then don't ask for advice.

If you merely post a list to show how awesome you are, then expect to get torn a new one and butthurt when people tell you you're wrong, and Possessed (etc) really ARE shit.


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## Fallen

Balkor Wolf said:


> HQs
> 
> If im honest people dont say anything bad against the HQ units of chaos, but it seems nearly every list I see that doesnt include two HQ units people always suggest a demon prince. I understand how its stats are awesome, especially when comparing its price to Chaos Lords/Sorcerers. With the latter two though you have the options of a 2+ save (Only 15 points extra for the sorcerer), personal icons for terminators and demons and some pretty awesome extras for getting around the battlefield quickly (Who doesnt want to charge into battle on a Juggernaut?)
> 
> the main reason why people DPs is because they cant be IDd by random person with a PF/meltagun.
> 
> Elites
> 
> First up on this list is possibly my favourite unit in the Chaos Army, Terminators. Whenever I see them in an army list some of the first comments will be 'Drop them to three guys, give them meltas and call them termiscides' Terminators should be a constant threat to an enemy during the whole battle. Again a 2+ save can cause a real problem for the enemy either they ignore them and be on the receiving end of some pretty heavy fire or focus a lot of attention to actually get wounds.
> 
> melta guns are prevalent in 40k meta, so goodbye 2+; Oh and once you get below half strength you cant regroup. FLEE terminators FLEE...annoying when it happens.:ireful2:
> 
> Next are Possessed Chaos Marines... Nothing screams chaos out more than one letting himself be possessed by a monster and look pretty badass in the process. Im pretty sure against an unexperienced enemy they may seem like more of a threat than they actually are and tie up specialist units to deal with them.
> 
> I love me some possessed, i just hate the demon kin table...cuz i never get a 6.
> 
> Finally dreadnoughts and the usual replies of 'Arent you scared of rolling a 1?' Am i hell scared of rolling a 1. I chose chaos because I like the unpredictable stuff, so what if my dreadnought fires a lascannon into the back of my shiny new Land Raider, im sure it will cause a few laughs and you wont always roll a 1.
> 
> dreads are actually decent for their points - i prefer them wit a ML & DCCW+HF. cheap and effective.
> 
> Troops
> 
> Not too much is said about Troops negatively, Chaos have a hell of a wide choice of scoring units which can only be a good thing, my favourite of which are the Thousand Sons. People seem so really dislike these guys but I see it as a cheap version of a sorcerer and a bodyguard of drones that will destroy most heavy infantry. They seem perfect to sit on objectives on your half of the table.
> 
> they are good, just ungodly expensive upfront (and IMO terrible models).
> 
> Heavy Support
> 
> My main problem here is when people put down the defiler. Sure for the same cost you can get two obliterators for the same cost but Defilers are walking doom spiders of untold doom. They look epic and really need a rule that anyone who has line of sight with it should be forced to take a moral test.
> 
> I love my spider-noughts, they cant take a punch personally - since they either go BOOM, or "WTF was that - i ignore it"


to be fair, the codex is old and has been pushed to the extreme to remain effective. so most of the "this unit sucks" stuffs have legitimate arguments.


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## LukeValantine

Its chaos! It should always be taken to the extreme, regardless of age.....all this hippy talk about being fair and balanced makes me think we have a imperial or tau infiltrator in our midst!


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