# Not enough love for the Bolter?



## joechip (Mar 4, 2010)

I'm a little new to Black Library fiction so forgive me if this sounds a little strange. It seems that the fight scenes in Space Marine novels and short stories lavish lots of detail and attention on the Marines in close combat while the most you'll usually hear about Marines wielding bolters is "Squad A fired their bolters". You see, the humble bolter is actually my favorite weapon in 40k and it doesn't seem to get much time to shine. I know there are plenty of main characters who duel wield a bolt pistol and a melee weapon but that's not what I'm looking for, I'm talking about a regular two-handed bolter. Can any of you recommend me some fiction with a main character or at least secondary character who uses a bolter as their main weapon? Thanks in advance


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Huh I never noticed that before. I can't actually think of a main character who uses a Bolter as the main weapon.

My favourite weapon is underused as well. The Lightning Claws.


----------



## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Lord of the Night said:


> Huh I never noticed that before. I can't actually think of a main character who uses a Bolter as the main weapon.
> 
> My favourite weapon is underused as well. The Lightning Claws.


Uriel Ventris? Other than when the zealously adhered too and constantly ignored Codex Astartes dictates the use of Flamer, Melta or Plasma units, or armaments for close quaters, the somewhat immortal Ultramarine Captain of the 4th always uses his bolter.

What of Loken, Tarvitz? 

As for the latter, dosen`t one of Vandred`s Terminators and/or Uzas use Lightening Claws?:biggrin:


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

bobss said:


> Uriel Ventris? Other than when the zealously adhered too and constantly ignored Codex Astartes dictates the use of Flamer, Melta or Plasma units, or armaments for close quaters, the somewhat immortal Ultramarine Captain of the 4th always uses his bolter.
> 
> What of Loken, Tarvitz?
> 
> As for the latter, dosen`t one of Vandred`s Terminators and/or Uzas use Lightening Claws?:biggrin:


Ventris mostly uses the Power Sword of Idaeus in combat, he only uses a Bolter for the short ranged fights he gets into.

Loken did but he mostly used a Chainsword as did Tarvitz.

Vraal used them, and Malcharion blew him into shreds :biggrin:, and if only Uzas did. Then i'd like him even more, but no he uses a Chainsword.


----------



## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

No, haven't read of any Marines with Boltguns... I still want to see my favorite gun in a book: The Fleshborer.


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

DestroyerHive said:


> No, haven't read of any Marines with Boltguns... I still want to see my favorite gun in a book: The Fleshborer.


Actually that appears in _Dark Disciple_. A rather colourful moment where a Word Bearer is killed by a Fleshborer.

'He saw one of the 13th cotorie fall to the ground, screaming in agony as a mass of writhing flesh-worms burrowed through his helmet, clogging his respirator and boring through the lenses covering his eyes, gnawing their way through his skull and into his brain.'

It was very cool to read, would like to see more Tyranid guns in the novels. More Necron and Dark Eldar guns as well.


----------



## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Lord of the Night said:


> Ventris mostly uses the Power Sword of Idaeus in combat, he only uses a Bolter for the short ranged fights he gets into.
> 
> Loken did but he mostly used a Chainsword as did Tarvitz.
> 
> Vraal used them, and Malcharion blew him into shreds :biggrin:, and if only Uzas did. Then i'd like him even more, but no he uses a Chainsword.


Lightening Claws would suit Uzas. A babbling Khornate Night Lord who desires to shed as much blood, take as many skulls and reap as many souls as possible. Though the ''babbling Khornate'' part will perhaps hinder any chances he has of a promotion, and thus a archaic set of these bloody weapons.:biggrin:.

As for the question as a whole, then I think Astartes tend to use bolters mainly in ranged, or defensive situations. A hulking collossus of several inches of ceramite and a few hundred pounds of genhanced muscle is far much lethal in closed-quaters; short of perhaps Orkish foes.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The main character of Lord of the Night has a Bolter, but usually stories revolve around characters who wouldn't usually carry a bolter.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

In wolfblade they actually describe gunfights the wolves get into in fairly grand detail.


----------



## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

I think its because in the first lot of HH books the bolter seems like a planet killer! if memory serves(dont hold your breath) the bolter was used all the time apart from in CC.

I would like to see the lash of submission put into a book....


----------



## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> The main character of Lord of the Night has a Bolter, but usually stories revolve around characters who wouldn't usually carry a bolter.


True, but upon the subject of the Night Lords, I distinctly remember Talos using the Power-Sword he aquired from a Blood Angel (On Terra?) over his bolter in _Soul Hunter_, though mostly down to a Boltgun`s inefficiency in close-quater ship-fighting and against a Warhound-class Titan.

But again, I stand by how the Bolter is used mostly during defensive situations or against foe`s in which other weapons are inferior in impact. One example that comes to mind is _Salamander_: The Salamanders use their bolters in varying ways against approaching Ork hordes, from longer distances and single-shots, to burst fire and full-automatic spraying and emptying entire magazines in a single exchange.


----------



## Turkeyspit (Jun 11, 2010)

Well generally speaking, all marines in a Tactical squad would be armed with Bolters, aside from the special weapons Marines (who would have Melta Guns, Heavy Bolters, Rocket Launchers, etc), and the Sgt/Captain, who would wield Bolt Pistols + Melee weapon (Chainsword, Powerfist, Power Sword).

Since most of the 'hero' Characters in the BL fiction seem to be Captains, Sergeants, Librarians, Chaplains or Terminators, you aren't apt to see a great many Bolters.

But hey, we are talking about fiction where the Hero gets to use their Bolt Pistol, on full automatic, to dispense squads of Orks without having to reload. :shok:


----------



## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

in the space wolf novels wolf blade and the next one in the series, Torin ( i think thats his name) uses a bolter and a heavy bolter, and ragnar uses his bolter quite often in the books


----------



## donskar (Apr 8, 2010)

BL authors do demand a pretty heavy dose of "willing suspension of disbelief" of their readers. With all the whiz bang technology of warfare available, nearly every action scene ends up in hand-to-hand combat, with hero and villains alike using essentially medieval weapons (sword, knife, spear, mace, etc), but weapons brought up to (40K) date. What are we missing besides rocket powered bows and arrows?

Don't get me wrong, I'm as addicted to BL/40K,this is just an ironic observation. Reading about an Astartes using his power sword while his bolter is holstered recalls the line, "he's so dumb he brought a knife to a gunfight."


----------



## bobss (May 18, 2008)

donskar said:


> BL authors do demand a pretty heavy dose of "willing suspension of disbelief" of their readers. With all the whiz bang technology of warfare available, nearly every action scene ends up in hand-to-hand combat, with hero and villains alike using essentially medieval weapons (sword, knife, spear, mace, etc), but weapons brought up to (40K) date. What are we missing besides rocket powered bows and arrows?


_
Horus Rising_. Near the latter stages of the novel, the Interex use some form of mechanical bows to fire ceramite-piercing lasers, mocked by Abaddon at first, but pretty bloody effective near the end:biggrin:

But that is what I love about the 40k Universe. It is brimmed with a range of advanced and archaic weapons, all with bemusing twists only a fictional theatre could acomplish. The Imperium with their varying cultures and Millitary sub-sectors: simple, yet effective technology such as the Astartes Bolter, Arbites Shotgun and the Guardsmen Lasgun, to much exotic and covert digital tools used by the Assassin Temples and Inquisition. The Eldar with more Warp-borne and lacerating weapons/projectiles; the Necrons with their pure, atom-flaying gauss ''guns'', the Tau with their more ''Star Wars''-esque approach to war, and Ork`s (as much as I loathe them) with their tons of over-engineered, excessive crap. The diversity makes it interesting

But yes, I believe Spikey summed it up by saying how novels tend to focus more heavily upon more unorthodox characters. Uriel Ventris with his Power-Sword, Pasanius with his heavy-flamer, and so forth...


----------



## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

In Salamander, the Bolter is used often along with the Flamer/Plasma/Melta. Lord of the Night: Doesn't Captain Luko in the Soul Drinker series use Lightning Claws? It isn't as used as it could be, but I don't mind if I am honest, nothing beats a meat clogged Chainsword:wink:


----------



## the.alleycat.uk (Jun 11, 2009)

It's about action and drama, Close combat is easier to make all dramatic with lots of description... I'd like to see a good gunfight scene.

That said my BL reading is fairly thin so it may well be out there.


----------



## joechip (Mar 4, 2010)

bobss said:


> Lightening Claws would suit Uzas. A babbling Khornate Night Lord who desires to shed as much blood, take as many skulls and reap as many souls as possible. Though the ''babbling Khornate'' part will perhaps hinder any chances he has of a promotion, and thus a archaic set of these bloody weapons.:biggrin:.
> 
> As for the question as a whole, then I think Astartes tend to use bolters mainly in ranged, or defensive situations. A hulking collossus of several inches of ceramite and a few hundred pounds of genhanced muscle is far much lethal in closed-quaters; short of perhaps Orkish foes.


I know Space Marines are amazing in close combat and the whole setting is insane anyway but...It's the future! They should fight like it!  

Thank you everyone for the replies. I might have to check out the novels for the Ultra Marines, Space Wolfs and Salamanders now. Mcmuffin mentioned the novel Wolf Blade for the SWs and the Salamanders only have one novel so far, but other than those two does anyone recommend specific novels?


----------



## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

In the gray knights 'bus there is a fair piece of stormbolter action goin on!


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Apart from in close-combat, every character in _Soul Hunter_ uses a bolter.

They're line soldiers. That's, like, the point.


----------



## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

> Actually that appears in Dark Disciple. A rather colourful moment where a Word Bearer is killed by a Fleshborer.


Yeah, I love that book! But I meant a protagonist weilding it (hence, a novel from the 'Nids point of view)


----------



## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

i think thatd be quite difficult, unless it was based around a multi view I.E inquisition/deathwatch etc hunting a genestealer cult?


----------



## Turkeyspit (Jun 11, 2010)

donskar said:


> BL authors do demand a pretty heavy dose of "willing suspension of disbelief" of their readers. With all the whiz bang technology of warfare available, nearly every action scene ends up in hand-to-hand combat, with hero and villains alike using essentially medieval weapons (sword, knife, spear, mace, etc), but weapons brought up to (40K) date. What are we missing besides rocket powered bows and arrows?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm as addicted to BL/40K,this is just an ironic observation. Reading about an Astartes using his power sword while his bolter is holstered recalls the line, "he's so dumb he brought a knife to a gunfight."



But that is what is different about Space Marines: they aren't infantry as much as they are shock troopers. Compare them to say the Tau (Fire Warrior, not Kroot ) who rely on technology / ranged weapons to offset their lack of physical resilience. 

Space Marines are the opposite. Their weapons can be used at range, but their power truly manifests itself when they engage in hand-to-hand; same can be said for Orks.


----------



## joechip (Mar 4, 2010)

Turkeyspit said:


> But that is what is different about Space Marines: they aren't infantry as much as they are shock troopers. Compare them to say the Tau (Fire Warrior, not Kroot ) who rely on technology / ranged weapons to offset their lack of physical resilience.
> 
> Space Marines are the opposite. Their weapons can be used at range, but their power truly manifests itself when they engage in hand-to-hand; same can be said for Orks.


I have to disagree with you there. Space Marines are not melee specialists, at least not all of them. Sure Chapters like the Black Templars and Space Wolves might focus on hand-to-hand, but most don't. The Salamanders prefer short range fire-fights and Imperial Fists love siege warfare, especially defense. The more Codex adherent chapters, which is probably most of them, are more balanced with special units for long range to melee and everything in between.

Also, I wouldn't compare Ork and Marine shooting skills. Da Boyz make Marines look like Vindicare assassins by comparison . If anything, Space Marines are a middle ground between the Tau and Orks when in comes to Shooting vs Melee. It's just that Black Library gives all the attention to close combat


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Then you would be wrong, space marines are shock troops. Defence usually boils down to a hand to hand bitch slap contest and that is where a space marines true superiority becomes apparent. Btw shock troop doesn't have to mean they get into hth but rather they hit hard and get close. A bolter isn't a sniper, it's an assault weapon.


----------



## joechip (Mar 4, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Then you would be wrong, space marines are shock troops. Defence usually boils down to a hand to hand bitch slap contest and that is where a space marines true superiority becomes apparent. Btw shock troop doesn't have to mean they get into hth but rather they hit hard and get close. A bolter isn't a sniper, it's an assault weapon.


I never said that a bolter was a sniper rifle, I guess you didn't catch the sarcasm in my Vindicare comment. I know most defensive fights in 40k degrade into melee but the defenders would have to be morons not to blast the ever loving crap out of the attackers every step of the way until they got within reach of a sword. In some of the BL fiction I've read the defenders do blast away, but the shooting gets glossed over in a sentence maybe two while the melee descriptions go on for paragraphs. 

Also, you said yourself that shock troops doesn't have to mean hand-to-hand, so bring on the close range fire-fights! Fine, the bolter is an assault weapon, lets see it used more! I'm not asking for Marines making head-shots from a mile away, I'm just asking for more bolter porn and less sword porn. What's not to love about a weapon that turns your enemy into a cloud of blood and bone-chips?


----------



## bobss (May 18, 2008)

joechip said:


> Also, you said yourself that shock troops doesn't have to mean hand-to-hand, so bring on the close range fire-fights! Fine, the bolter is an assault weapon, lets see it used more! I'm not asking for Marines making head-shots from a mile away, I'm just asking for more bolter porn and less sword porn. What's not to love about a weapon that turns your enemy into a cloud of blood and bone-chips?


If you have already not, then I highly suggest you read _Salamander_. The Salamanders deviate to a thick passage, if not page of bolter fire at varying distances and styles, targetting Ork machine-engines and skulls. The Boltgun may not be inherently a weapon designed to pick off opponents at astronomical distances, but within the hands of an Astartes, with numerous inbuilt targetting systems, and a centuries-honed aim, the effects are far more lethal than a throng of human-snipers with extended Las-Rifles.

Surely that is the point though? How often do you want to read about bolts puncturing through lungs, burrowing through flesh and then detonating in a fine, red mist? Several paragraphs, detailing volleys is fair enough, but once in combat, the odds are narrowed and the potential for not only exitement, but for the Author to display their talent is dramatically increased. Simply, to read about Astartes firing their bolters to their combat weapons in an even higher ratio than is common in Black Library today, would be simply boring.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

@ Joe.... I never read the second paragraph. Lol the sniper was just luck. Lol


----------



## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

I always thought Space Marines were generally weaker at range and stronger in melee. That's why, given the opportunity, they close in. 

Anyways, I don't really know of any main heroes who predominately use bolters. I guess it's kinda like the Tanith's memorable weapon being their straight silver, not their lasrifles. Bolters - and lasguns - are fairly common, but a named power weapon is more impressive. Of course, a named and exceptionally deadly bolter would be cool, so maybe one day we'll get a hero who prefers to use one.


----------



## joechip (Mar 4, 2010)

bobss said:


> If you have already not, then I highly suggest you read _Salamander_. The Salamanders deviate to a thick passage, if not page of bolter fire at varying distances and styles, targetting Ork machine-engines and skulls. The Boltgun may not be inherently a weapon designed to pick off opponents at astronomical distances, but within the hands of an Astartes, with numerous inbuilt targetting systems, and a centuries-honed aim, the effects are far more lethal than a throng of human-snipers with extended Las-Rifles.
> 
> Surely that is the point though? How often do you want to read about bolts puncturing through lungs, burrowing through flesh and then detonating in a fine, red mist? Several paragraphs, detailing volleys is fair enough, but once in combat, the odds are narrowed and the potential for not only exitement, but for the Author to display their talent is dramatically increased. Simply, to read about Astartes firing their bolters to their combat weapons in an even higher ratio than is common in Black Library today, would be simply boring.


Based on your post and others in this thread I do plan to read Salamander, it sounds like something right up my ally. How often do I want to read about bolts punching through lungs, burrowing through flesh and then detonating in a fine, red mist? :blush: More please! The book would need a bolter fight almost every other page before I got bored of rocket bullets.



Davidicus 40k said:


> I always thought Space Marines were generally weaker at range and stronger in melee. That's why, given the opportunity, they close in.
> 
> Anyways, I don't really know of any main heroes who predominately use bolters. I guess it's kinda like the Tanith's memorable weapon being their straight silver, not their lasrifles. Bolters - and lasguns - are fairly common, but a named power weapon is more impressive. Of course, a named and exceptionally deadly bolter would be cool, so maybe one day we'll get a hero who prefers to use one.


A named Bolter, an especially deadly and revered relic of the Chapter would be awesome! I'm surprised I never thought of that.


----------



## Turkeyspit (Jun 11, 2010)

bobss said:


> Surely that is the point though? How often do you want to read about bolts puncturing through lungs, burrowing through flesh and then detonating in a fine, red mist? Several paragraphs, detailing volleys is fair enough, but once in combat, the odds are narrowed and the potential for not only exitement, but for the Author to display their talent is dramatically increased. Simply, to read about Astartes firing their bolters to their combat weapons in an even higher ratio than is common in Black Library today, would be simply boring.


Well there is more to it than that, if we look beyond the literary advantages. Melee combat plays to a Space Marines strenghs, which are:

*Resilience:* thick armor, pain suppression via chemicals, extra heart/lung, Larramans 
*Physical Strength:*augmented Bio-genetically, mechanically and chemically. 
*Speed:*augmented same as Physical Strength
*Mental tenacity:*hypno conditioning to overcome fear, fatigue, etc.

While undoubtably helpful in a long range firefight, the above traits profer a tremendous advantage in hand-to-hand combat, where techonology, terrain, atmostphere, climate and other such variables play less of a role.

Space Marines *do* have access to Artillery (Whirlwinds, Barrage Cannons from Strike Cruiser/Battle Barge) and yet their preffered tactic is insertion via Drop Pod, or charging through the enemy's front lines on board Rhino and Land Raider tanks. That is pretty telling imo...


Note: to be fair, Tactical Space Marines have more flexibility than say Assault Marines or Terminators, whose sole role is that of a 'shock trooper'. Devestator Marines are designed for suppression fire / anti-armor roles. 

My point is that a Space Marine would be far more exacting on his foes with a chainsword than he would be with a bolter.


----------

