# DoC - cheese?



## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Hey everyone,

I've heard that Daemons of Chaos can field some truly cheesy lists. Unfortunately, I have an upcoming local tourney where I can expect to face two players both fielding said armies. I'm not familiar enough with fantasy yet that I can just look at a codex and know what's powerful. What can I expect from a tourney cheese list? Actual lists would be VERY useful but even just which units/gear/upgrades might be spammed/used/etc would be nice.

Thanks!


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Nastiest one I know is:

Bloodthirster- obsidian armour (3+AS, no magical weapons in b2b), firestorm blade (+1S, flaming) and immortal fury (always re-rolls to hit).
Herald of nurgle- BSB (either all daemons stubborn within 12" or -2Ld for all enemies within 12")
Herlad of tzeentch- power vortex (+1PD)
herald of tzeentch- power vortex
15-20 Plaguebearers
10-15 horrors
10-15 horrors
5 flesh hounds
3 flamers
3 flamers

10 PD, 6DD, 6D6 S4 shots, bloodthirster and flesh hounds are both very fast and good in combat, plaguebearers are great as an anchor (especially with the BSB... and if thats the stubborn banner forget them unless you have flaming/KB).
I was told once that to win at WFB you need to dominate (or at least control) 2 of the 4 phases of the game (ie being an immense combat army which the enemy can just walk around and shoot/magic at will menas you'll lose).
Movement- flying bloodthirster.. yes please. Flesh hounds arent forgettable either.
Combat- Bloodthirster can take almost everything (7 rerollable to hit attacks at S7 plus 3+/5++ saves), very little can take on a plaguebearer unit either (especially after crossing the field being beaten up by magic/shooting).
Magic- same PD/DD as 4 Lv2 mages with more wounds and cheaper then anything anyone else could think of putting on the board.
Shooting- 3D6 S4 shots will make quite a dent, and this army can do that twice a turn. 

If I faced something like this with my ogres I would probably just give them the game and walk away... it would be the same result but a lot quicker then bothering to actually move the models round the table.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Ouch, that sounds brutal... I don't know how my WoC are going to counter that much magic... I have a bit of MR and a couple of casters on discs but sheesh. When I do get there, that bloodthirster will tear me a new one....


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Daemons are considered cheese as even a somewhat 'friendly' list will devastate most other armies, and when you actually begin to abuse them they are horrific.

Tim/Steve`s list is a common list, although it is possible just to have pure Tzeentch and have somewhere near 19 Power Dice per turn...

Bloodthirster is... hard.... I mean, your average Khorne Lord on Jugg will tear a Thirster to pieces.. but Obsidian armour...Hmm.. *gets out book*

Tbh... Bronze Armour of Zhrakk... Pendant of Slaanesh... Acid Ichor...Favour of the Gods and Bloodskull Pendant with a shield, great weapon on Jugg with MoK seems your best option. You`ll be hitting with Strn 7/8 attacks, and with a single Strn8 KB attack from your pendant. Your armour ignores KB, and for every wound you loose your opponent suffers a strn 4 hit and you gain an extra attack. I mean without Hellfire Sword its hard... but not that hard...


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

The problem with that idea is that the bloodthirster is flying so will always outmanouver a killing machine like the knornate lord- as soon as he sees a lord he'll either avoid you completely or just charge into the unit's flank away from the lord- doing an average of 3.5 wounds to chaos knights means you'll be down to a Ld6-7 break test (or Ld4-5 if he took the -2Ld BSB and its close enough).
- I could beat a BT with my ogres if I charged with my tyrant with a unit of ironguts... if it charged me I might even stand a chance (depending on magical buffs/items). Problem is that since my tyrant is just about the only thing in teh ogre book that can beat the BT if it avoids me it can rampage through apsolutely everything else... and it has M20 with its flying.

Personally I would just keep the bloodthirster clear and just wait to get a few S6-7 flickering fire's off at the lord's unit (they really must have MR). Knights with lord, if they are MR2+, will be a real problem for this list. Almost all of the magic isnt going to phase them, the shooting still gives them 2+ saves and the hounds wnt do much... the bloodthirster might tear them up if you arent careful though (some marauder horsemen with MoS to pysically block flank charges- by which I mean put close enough that the BT cant make base contact- and angled to redirect overruns well away from your knights are probably a must). The only counter that leaves are the plaguebearers- since your lord has to challenge you'll be fighting the unit champion, that leaves something like 5 knights vs the herald and 4 plaguebearers... you wont kill the herald in 1 turn unless you are all manner of jammy and will be lucky to do 4-5 wounds for DCR... meanwhile the plaguebearers will have +5SCR over you (3 ranks, outnumber,BSB) and could well cause some wounds... if they have the poisoned wounds count double banner then a bit of bad luck would see you lose by a LOT.
- I know Im not being particularly helpful but I dont really know how any army can deal with a daemons list like this... it has no real weaknesses to exploit. Although I for one would want to be a dwarf gunline if playing this (couple of cannons for the BT, burning organ gun for the PB and thunderers if the horrors get in range).


The magic heavy pure/almost pure tzeentch army is horrendous to face... unleess you happen to be HE and then you might well be laughing at it. Tzeentch is basically all flaming, great if you play against a plaguebearer list but hopeless against dragon princes and dragon armour (such as would be found on all combat HE characters- worst of all it protcets the mount as well... so all 600pt star dragons+prince combos will almost certainly be immune to fire). Also means that armies with large amounts of MR would be laughing at you: 19-23 PD arent that useful if all your spells are 2-3PD max.


Personally I dont think any mono-god daemons list is that bad. Tzeentch is probably the worst but comes with the glass heal. Khorne is evil and often has enough MR to laugh at the magic phase but does then mean lost of bloodletters (which I think are rubbish- 6S5 attacks... oh no, and at T3 5++ if I charge them or use my HE I'll kill most of the front rank even if using spearmen). Slaanesh would be my choice for a daemons army and it is amasingly quick... problem is that it cant kill anything with armour- throw in ItP and slaanesh is doomed. Nurgle is just wrong: multiple units of plaguebearers with heralds is all but impossible to beat (I commonly face 2 units of 20 with my ogres- I win but it takes a LOT of killing) since all of them are T4 5++/4+ with full SCR and poison... but they are also M4, so if you can march block them they'll never get anywere.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

> Slaanesh would be my choice for a daemons army and it is amasingly quick


Strongly agreed. I was debating this out of nowhere earlier today, and it makes sense. Pure Slaanesh armies have the best balance of close combat prowess, magic and speed, not to mention their devestating Ld bombs. Khorne would come second, ultimate CC list, and with everything short of Letters having built in MR they have some protection against magic. Nurgle would be third: hard as hell being their trademark, some good magic, on par, if not better than Slaaneshi magic, and okish in combat with the the help of Poisened Attacks. Tzeentch last. Pure tzeentch magic army, maybe some Screemers will burn many lists to the ground, short of HE Dragon Armour, Teclis, and Vortex Shard XD.

On a similar note, although I may get curb-stomped for generally sympathising for them... but... dosen`t Tzeentch Daemon Lore suck... when compared to that of the 'Mortal' equivilant and even magic from other races... races *Cough* Dark Elves *Cough* that fluffwise arnt supposes to be on par as the minions of Tzeentch?


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

*DoC tests*

We play a lot of armies in my home and locally. It is hard for me to call something cheesy if it is well within the rules. The Games Workshop designer got carried away and simply made Daemon Tzeentch magic too powerful and then undercosted and overpowered a some key DoC units/models (Flamers, Flesh Hounds, Horrors, a couple of the Lords, Lord of Change and Bloodthirster, and a couple of the special characters, Kairos and Blue Scribes). That is enough to make a very frustrating battle. But DoC can be beat. My youngest son has all the combos one could test for DoC and, also, plays LM. My older son plays O&G and Skaven. I have WoC (with heavy Tzeentch magic and lots of variations) and Dark Elf armies. 

Ideally, you would have an army with very fast units that hit hard, can avoid charges and charge, and can shoot from range and counter magic. DoC armies cannot have a lot of units due to the high point costs of even core unit models. The frustration is all Daemon models have a 5+ Ward Sv and avoid panic, and a Herald of Tzeentch with a core unit of Horrors confers a 4+ Ward to the models in the unit. A Horror units can act as wizard with the level and spells based on the size of the unit, creating a magic mismatch. A Herald of Nurgle on a Palanquin confers regeneration to a core unit of Plaguebearers and is tough to kill with the Ward and the regeneration unless hit with flaming attacks. 

However, DoC is generally weaker in cc, especially if charged by a unit with high static CR or extremely high ACR, and, thus, vulnerable to losing CR. Instead of breaking on a failed break test, DoC units take additional wounds based on the amount of the break test failure. Once tied up in cc, the magic threat can also be reduced. It is not easy to achieve this with Flamers and Flesh Hounds guarding the flanks and taking out fast unit. 

A WoC army with Sorc. Lord of Tzeentch (on disk) and 2-3 Tzeentch Sorcerers on mounts (disks or on a barded steed with a mobile unit) with some of the wonderful buffs to improve MR, AS and/or WS (esp. to magic missiles and shooting), some bound spells, and luck in pulling magic (including a Lore of Fire spell with Book of Secrets) can sometimes overwhelm and survive. Once at the core units, they can destroy (Bloodcurdling Roar and cheap Flickering Fire of Tzeentch spells to kill regen) the relatively vulnerable core units and heralds. If the Horror units are reduced below 6 and/or the Heralds of Tzeentch are killed in a challenge and the most of the WoC Sorcerers survive, then the magic balance shifts. WoC Tzeentch Magic armies have enough counters to magic (infernal puppet, scrolls, and dispell dice) to hold up (as long as the Lord of Change occasionally fails to cast some of the big stuff sufficient to allow for dispells efforts and scrolls to blunt magic through turn 3 and does not get a few lucky Flickering Fire of Tz or Bolt of Change rolls off early in the battle). Mix in some combination of resilient, tough, mobile units such as Dragon Ogres (great weapons, multiple attacks, multiple wounds to survive), Ogres (Khorne with chaos armor and stuff, armour is the key), Knights (great AS, but still may die too fast) and mobile/distracting units of Chaos Hounds and some Marauder Horseman with Flails (maybe shields to survive better). This strategy will lose most the time to an optimized DoC Tzeentch magic army but will have a good chance of surviving and make for a battle where both sides must deploy, move, and pick their shots. A misstep by the DoC player will allow the WoC player to roll up the core units and leave the Flamers and Flesh Hounds vulnerable to magic and the Lord of Change outnumbered and vulnerable. At least the DoC player will be on the edge of his seat a few times worrying about dice rolls. 

Similarly, my older son's O&G army once (out of three battles) successfully overwhelmed the DoC army with numbers, cavalry, and a battery of 4 spear chukkas. The Wolf riders died valiently holding up and distracting the Flesh Hounds and Flamers. The spear chukkas (got lucky) took out the Lord, some screamers of Tzeentch, and severly damaged a unit of Flesh Hounds in a few turns before the screamers left one chukka with one crewman. As a result, a unit of 5 Orc Boar Boys with a hero on a boar (avoiding Flamers and Flesh Hounds/got lucky in surviving magic damage attacks) hit a flank of core Horror units on turn two and rolled up by the end of turn four three of the four core Horror units (10 in each) in succession over two turns and left the fourth Horror unit about to be charged. Still the Flamers remaining made it a close game. 

There are really four seriously underpriced/overpowered units:

1. The Lord of Change (twin heads and stuff) is really tough due to the pumped up power dice and knowledge of Daemon Tzeentch spells. Daemon Tzeentch magic is about the best and most overpowered magic lore in WFB. Plus the LoC can fly and take on close combat. I hit it with a WoC Hero on a Jugg and one Dragon Ogre (the rest of the Dragon Ogres were destroyed by a lucky spell from the LoC) and still lost the combat. 

2. Flamers of Tzeentch (rare) are overpowered with their multiple D6 flaming shooting attacks per Flamer and with the ability to take and deal damage in cc. It is best to tie them up in combat, but they are skirmishers, can move well, and have stand and shoot ability.

3. Flesh Hounds of Khorne (special unit) hit hard, protect flanks, and can run through a lot of units with their multiple attacks and wounds. 

4. Horrors of Tzeentzch with Heralds of Tzeentch are weak in cc but have lots of magic due to the Horrors unit gaining power dice and spells based on the size of the unit. 

There are two debatably underpriced units:

5. A Herald of Nurgle on a Palanquin confers regeneration to a core unit of Plaguebearers and they can hit hard but are slower and mostly used to anchor a position. They can have the ability to negate flank and rear attack bonuses, as well, making them something of a tar pit.

6. Screamers of Tzeentch - flying with swooping attacks make them great in attacking artillery but they can die fast if the WS rolls don't come through. 

Also, note that Chaos Furies can fly, harass, and march block and grab or deny table quarters but aren't strong or unfair for the points. 

Other units are fairly priced but nothing is weak. For example, a Herald of Khorne on a Jugg with a unit of bloodletters (high S and multiple attacks) can hit very hard but the bloodletters will die if stuck in combat with a resilient unit (high T and AS) and with a loss of CR, the bloodletters will die faster than one might think unless they get lucky. 

Exploiting the rules, a DoC Tzeentch magic standard army (2250-2500 points) would be:

Lord: 1 LoC 
Core and Heroes: some combo of: 2 to 4 units of 10 horrors with 1 to 3 Heralds of Tzeentch (Lvl. 2 +1 PD); 1 unit of plaguebearers with a Herald of Nurgle (optional); 1 unit of bloodletters with the herald of Khorne. 
Special: one or two units of Flesh Hounds in 5 per unit or a unit of Screamers with a unit of Flesh Hounds
Rare: one or two units of Flamers with 3 to 6 Flamers per unit

Weaknesses:

1. If the LoC can be hit and tied up in cc with a very strong, resilient unit (for example, Dragon Ogres or Trolls with a general nearby threatened to hit horrors in the flank and the LoC had to block or let them be rolled up) it cannot attack and it can be damaged at range (large target for RBT, arrows and bows), then it can be eventually killed or limited in effectiveness. Kill or tie up the LoC and the army loses its magic edge. 
2. The Horrors and Heralds of Tzeentch are weak in cc and are generally in small unitsof 10. Getting past the Flamers and Flesh Hounds and magic is not easy, but, if successful, killing the Horror units and Heralds shuts down the magic and takes away extra spells and power dice. 
3. With lots of casting in a DoC Tzeentch army, then anything that punishes miscasts (Puppet in WoC and RoH in DE) or magic will increase the chances that the DoC unit will lose its edge early. 
4. The Plaguebearers of Nurgle are not fast and cc with a unit with a Herald of Nurgle should be avoided (due to regeneration and poison). Instead, they should be run around and shot at (if possible with flaming attacks, WoC Sorcerers with Tzeentch and Lore of Fire kills the regen.).


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

> There are really four seriously underpriced/overpowered units:


Personnaly, Id rate everything overpowered, undepriced or far to anti-another army, with the exception of nurglings (even then, for a swarm...) and Furies. 

To the poster of this thread, if you wish to know what to expect then expect anything. Daemons of Chaos excell in all forms of strategy, are superb at all of the usual tactics used by other armies. Can be very competative in all phases of the game, or utterly insane in certain one. 

Sorcerers from the Lore of Tzeentch, trying to get those Gateways out are good. On the other hand, trying to spam bubous onto heralds, and units with no built in MR from your lower heralds, whilst your Sorc Lord uses Tzeentch spells can be a formidable offense, and offers a good defence against all by the most PD spammed list. To take down a Thirster, you could try and get a Gateway of on it, but a Khorne Lord on Juggernaut with all manner of pendants in a block of Nurgle Knights with Banner of Rage could work. But as Tim/Steve said, Thirsters are flying so it would be hard to outmanaevor it, so try to bait it with something else valuable.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

*afraid this degenerates into a rant... oh well*

I kinda agree with olderplayer- yes DoC have a couple of strong units that are underpriced, certainly more then any other army (although the hydra has to take the crown as ultimate undercosted unit) but that isnt why I think DoC have a rep for being cheesy.
I think that the real reason that they have a bad rep is that they just dont come with any weaknesses: they can match most other armies except for specialist lists in practically every phase... and then you add in that they'll never break and you have a winner. They arent as manouverable as beastmen, shooty as a gunline, magical as DE or as killy in combat as WoC but then all those armies have their flaws that can be exploited (or just a little bit of poor luck that can mean you general plus expensive unit bounces off some little innocuous unit that then chaces them down... happens to my ogres quite a bit).

eg- a ranked up unit of 15 knornate WoC warriors is a terrible thing to see coming at you, but if I get my ~150pt unit of 3 ironguts into their flank then I should win the combat by 2, meaning the WoC have a good chance of breaking and being killed (and having a expensive god of a lord in the front rank somewhere isnt really going to help them out). While being a great unit there are still good ways to counter them... a similar unit of daemons would just laugh, take a few instability wounds then start to fight back in later turns.

In a way I really like the bloodletters and daemonettes- they are nasty in some situations but in some instances will just totally fail... the same cant really be said for plaguebearers unless you happen to have a unit with flaming attacks (my biggest irritation is that nothing at all in the ogre book is flaming) then they'll keep their saves (which are the equivalent of a 3+ ward save) and since they have good SCR will rarely lose a fight by much. Even if you put a character killer into the fight to killl off the herald he'll likely be striking last, so even if the herald doesnt kill him and if he were to kill the herald the unit has still had the whole round's worth of regen saves. Worst fail a plaguebearer unit can make is just not getting into combat...


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