# Need some advice with WoC vs. Empire



## entoptic (Jan 4, 2014)

Hello everyone. This is my first post and I am new to Warhammer fantasy. My friend has an Empire army and I have a WoC. My problem is this guy is all guns and I can't seem to get close to him without first taking heavy casualties. He loves his great cannons/hell blasters with master engineer and seem to shred my army apart. He protects all these guys with lots of crossbow men and riflemen in groups of 10 - 12. Then if that isn't enough he has a grouping of demi-griffs that have a bsb, wizard and hero. During the magic phase I am usually targeted by comet of Cassanda or chain lightning. 

I have tried so many combos I am dizzy. I can't even seem to get close to him without losing almost my entire army. We have literally played 15 games and I haven't won once. How would you deal with this? Any help would be great. 

Thanks in advance!

Mods please change the title of this thread from "Britonnia" to "Empire"


----------



## iamtheeviltwin (Nov 12, 2012)

What points levels and lists have you been running? WoC is considered one of the more powerful armies in the game right now and has a strong range of tools that should be able to deal with what sounds likes an empire-style castle. You have a list of the tools that you have available?


----------



## entoptic (Jan 4, 2014)

I have tested a few strategies against my friend and he is rocking me. We usually play 2.5k. 

Here is my most recent army that got slaughtered. I went for a zerg rush in hopes that I would reach him before the pew pew started. 


```
Sorcerer (1 , 235 pts)

 Chaos Sorcerer of Nurgle 1 MC 4 5 3 4 5 3 5 2 8 3+ 4+* 2 235

 Daemonic Mount 1 - 8 4 - 5 - - 3 2 8 - [35]

 Dispel Scroll 1 One use: Automatically dispels an enemy spell. [25]

 Opal Amulet 1 4+ Ward Save against first wound. [15]

 Ironcurse Icon 1 Character and unit gain 6+ Ward Save against war machines. [5]

Composition: Hero

Eye of the Gods; Mark of Nurgle; Level 2 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armour

Daemonic Attacks; Causes Fear; Stomp

Sorcerer (2 , 245 pts)

 Chaos Sorcerer of Tzeentch 1 Ca 4 5 3 4 4 2 5 2 8 3+ 3+ 2 245

 Disc of Tzeentch 1 - 1 3 - 4 4 1 4 3 7 - [30]

 Third Eye of Tzeentch 1 Re-roll Ward Save results of 1. [10]

Composition: Hero

Eye of the Gods; Mark of Tzeentch; Level 2 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armour

Daemonic Attacks; Causes Fear; Flyer; Swiftstride

 Talisman of Preservation 1 4+ Ward Save. [45]

Marauder Horsemen (5 , 75 pts)

 Marauder Horsemen of Slaanesh 5 Ca 4 4 3 3 3 1 4 1 7 6+ 75

Composition: Core

Mark of Slaanesh; Hand Weapon; Fast Cavalry; Vanguard

 Warhorse 5 - 8 3 - 3 3 1 3 1 5 - [0]

Marauder Horsemen (5 , 75 pts)

 Marauder Horsemen of Slaanesh 5 Ca 4 4 3 3 3 1 4 1 7 6+ 75

Composition: Core

Mark of Slaanesh; Hand Weapon; Fast Cavalry; Vanguard

 Warhorse 5 - 8 3 - 3 3 1 3 1 5 - [0]

Marauder Horsemen (5 , 75 pts)

 Marauder Horsemen of Slaanesh 5 Ca 4 4 3 3 3 1 4 1 7 6+ 75

Composition: Core

Mark of Slaanesh; Hand Weapon; Fast Cavalry; Vanguard

 Warhorse 5 - 8 3 - 3 3 1 3 1 5 - [0]

Marauder Horsemen (5 , 75 pts)

 Marauder Horsemen of Slaanesh 5 Ca 4 4 3 3 3 1 4 1 7 6+ 75

Composition: Core

Mark of Slaanesh; Hand Weapon; Fast Cavalry; Vanguard

 Warhorse 5 - 8 3 - 3 3 1 3 1 5 - [0]

Marauder Horsemen (5 , 75 pts)

 Marauder Horsemen of Slaanesh 5 Ca 4 4 3 3 3 1 4 1 7 6+ 75

Composition: Core

Mark of Slaanesh; Hand Weapon; Fast Cavalry; Vanguard

 Warhorse 5 - 8 3 - 3 3 1 3 1 5 - [0]

Marauder Horsemen (5 , 75 pts)

 Marauder Horsemen of Slaanesh 5 Ca 4 4 3 3 3 1 4 1 7 6+ 75

Composition: Core

Mark of Slaanesh; Hand Weapon; Fast Cavalry; Vanguard

 Warhorse 5 - 8 3 - 3 3 1 3 1 5 - [0]

Marauder Horsemen (5 , 75 pts)

 Marauder Horsemen of Slaanesh 5 Ca 4 4 3 3 3 1 4 1 7 6+ 75

Composition: Core

Mark of Slaanesh; Hand Weapon; Fast Cavalry; Vanguard

 Warhorse 5 - 8 3 - 3 3 1 3 1 5 - [0]

Created with Army Builder® - Copyright (c) 1997-2013 Lone Wolf Development, Inc. All rights reserved. Download it for FREE at http://www.wolflair.com!

Name # Type Mv WS BS St To Wo In At Ld Sv WSv Mgc Cost

Chaos Chariot (3 , 110 pts)

 Chaos Chariot 1 Ch 5 5 4 3+ 110

 Chaos Charioteer 2 - - 5 3 4/5 - - 5 2 8 - [0]

 Chaos Steed 2 - 8 3 - 4 3 1 3 1 5 - [0]

 Hellstriders of Slaanesh 5 Ca 4 4 3 3 3 1 5 1 7 5+ 100

Composition: Core

Chariot; Scythed Wheels

Hand Weapon; Halberd

Hellstriders of Slaanesh (5 , 100 pts)

 Steed of Slaanesh 5 - 10 3 - 3 3 1 5 1 7 - [0]

Composition: Special

Soul Hunters: Destroyed enemy units give (1+ Devastating Charge, 2+ Stubborn, 3+ 4+ WSv);

Always Strikes First; Mark of Slaanesh; Hand Weapon; Hellscourges; Shield; Fast Cavalry;

Vanguard

Armour Piercing; Daemonic Attacks; Causes Fear; Fast Cavalry; Poisoned Attacks; Vanguard

Hellstriders of Slaanesh (5 , 100 pts)

 Hellstriders of Slaanesh 5 Ca 4 4 3 3 3 1 5 1 7 5+ 100

Composition: Special

Soul Hunters: Destroyed enemy units give (1+ Devastating Charge, 2+ Stubborn, 3+ 4+ WSv);

Always Strikes First; Mark of Slaanesh; Hand Weapon; Hellscourges; Shield; Fast Cavalry;

Vanguard

Armour Piercing; Daemonic Attacks; Causes Fear; Fast Cavalry; Poisoned Attacks; Vanguard

Chaos Knights (14 , 690 pts)

 Steed of Slaanesh 5 - 10 3 - 3 3 1 5 1 7 - [0]

 Chaos Knights of Nurgle 14 Ca 4 5 3 4/5 4 1 5 2 8 1+ 690

Composition: Special

Standard Bearer ; Mark of Nurgle; Hand Weapon; Ensorcelled Weapons; Chaos Armour;

Shield; Barding; Causes Fear

Chaos Lord (2 , 495 pts)

 Wailing Banner 1 Unit causes Terror. [50]

 Chaos Steed 14 - 8/7 3 - 4 3 1 3 1 5 - [0]

 Chaos Lord of Khorne 1 In/Mo 4 8 3 5 5 3 7 5/9 9 1+ 495

 Manticore 1 Mo 6 5 - 5 5 4 5 4/5 5 4+ [185]

Composition: Lord

Eye of the Gods; Berserk Rage; General; Mark of Khorne; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armour;

Frenzy

Uncontrollable: At the start of each friendly turn, unit must make a Ld test. If failed Manticore

and rider gain Frenzy until start of next turn. Should the rider be slain, no Monster Reaction test

is take instead treat as result "Raaargh!".; Venom Tail; Causes Terror; Flyer; Iron Hard Skin;

Killing Blow; Large Target; Multiple Wounds; Poisoned Attacks; Swiftstride; Thunder Stomp

 Sword of Bloodshed 1 +3 Attacks. [60]

 Enchanted Shield 1 Shield; +2 armour save bonus [5]

 Dawnstone 1 Re-roll failed armour saves. [25]
```


----------



## Deathypoo (Jun 27, 2011)

I don't happen to have any Chaos opponents so I don't know the army well - take all the following with a grain of salt... but I do know Empire, and my main opponent runs a similar dwarf gun-line.

I would think you need a few huge units rather than so many small ones. It may seem counterintuitive to give the warmachines really big targets and have so many models dying to the big spells, but once you close the gap there's really nothing they can do. 4 units of 60 reduced to 3 units of 30 is still a lot scarier when it arrives, rather than than 20 units of 5 just going through the grinder.


----------



## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

you need to remove most of that list ASAP

your not allowed to post individual upgrade costs or GW's legal team will have a fit.

other that that i would agree with deathly, one would on the horsemen will have them running for the hills, and with multiple small units of c/bows or handguns that will be very easy.


----------



## entoptic (Jan 4, 2014)

Thanks for the replies everyone. My friend actually beat him last night after I posted this. He had 80 witch hunters from the elf army and just mobbed him in gigantic group which was ten wide for the horde ruling.

Why am I unable to post GW info? I am merly refering to my army list which I purchased their book to create.


----------



## Deathypoo (Jun 27, 2011)

If you post all the points values in your army book than someone ELSE won't have to buy their book. At least that's the theory. You can post total costs of units including their upgrades, but you can't break it down item by item. GW is extremely strict about this kind of thing, and could easily bring down the entire Heresy-online site if they find a list like this. It's a common mistake from a new guy, and normally an admin would have already deleted your list... but still, the sooner it's gone the better.


----------



## KarnalBloodfist (Jan 30, 2010)

I think 7 units of 5 marauder horsemen are a bit on the excessive side. They're only marauders and will shred like a wet tissue to a hard sneeze. They're not that much better than a regular Empire troop. 1 or 2 units, sure. But 7?!?! Not to mention you have 2 units of 5 hellstriders on top of that. I understand you're trying to make a fast list to deal w/ the shooty, however, there's no punch in any of that. You'd be better off w/ 3 units of 10 marauder horse and a unit of 10 hellstriders. They can take some shots to the face and won't lose as much in combat capability if they lose 2 or 3 models. Plus it will make him use more resources to deal w/ the larger units which saves the rest of your forces from being shot to pieces.

Not a huge fan of the manticor for a lord. I think you'd be better off going MoN and a regular chaos steed and throwing him in the knight bus. Either that or go MoT for the lord and knights and give them the Blasted Standard. Then just point and laugh when his all his shooting has its S cut in half. Granted, you'll roll a 1 here and there, just hope it's for the cannons. 

A chimera or a hellcannon would help quite a bit as well. Both of them bring the template fun for those opponents who like to bunch up.

Try a lvl 4 sorc w/ Lore of Death or Shadow and 6-dice a few nuke spells.

Or, how about the Hortense Disco Lord?:
Chaos Lord w/ MoT, Disc, Talisman of Preservation, 3rd Eye of Tzeentch, Shield, Dragonhelm, Halberd
He's got a 1+/3++ (2+/3++ in HtH), rerolls 1s for ward save, has Fly and Fear, 2++ vs Fire, and S6 attacks at initiative. Use that, roll his warmachines, and drink in all the tears. k: Give him Soul Feeder as well to regain that odd wound that makes it through on his flight in.

EDIT --
Other dirty tricks:
1) Not sure what your groups' outlook on special characters is, but, Wulfrik w/ a large unit of marauders. Pop them up in his backfield and watch the sweat roll.
2) Lvl 4 sorc w/ Lore of Slaanesh. Make his warmachines move and giggle (yes, that's right, I said giggle) while his warmachines are forced to move and then cannot fire.


----------

