# Having trouble deciding. Death Korps or Elysians



## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

So after deciding to wait for Tau to get a new dex I'm looking at a second army since my DA are staying at 1k points for a little while and Guard was my second choice originally, however fluffwise I'm not sure which to take. Elysians are quick drop in and hit something but have no tanks, but rely on sentinels for anti-tank? Krieg is seige warfare, so infantry and artillery? 

I know little about them so any pointers would be nice. This will be a very long project as they are quite expensive so I won't have an army for a year or two in all likelihood. Which one generally runs cheaper in terms of support needed?


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## HereticHammer01 (Apr 29, 2011)

Death korps popped up in Dead Men Walking and were portrayed as pretty emotionless which I thought was cool. Also love their models. Both seem pretty cool though, both are probably expensive - forge world :biggrin: - but not sure which would be more expensive.

I voted death korps, simply because they're my favourite IG army. Haven't read much of Elysian drop troops fluff, unfortunately.


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## kodi (May 5, 2011)

Pick up your ropes and follow me.
Air Assault infantry!


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## Takizuchi (Aug 27, 2010)

THe Death korps remind me of WWI Trench warfare kinda soilders. While the drop troops remind me of the colonial marines off of Aliens so i guess its kinda a style thing the could be chose from as both have great models. I guess you can also go off of play style, but for me it would probably be the drop troops.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

well...do you want to play mass infantry with artillery (DKoK) or paratroopers "a bridge too far" style fluff wise?


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

As long as you know they will be both expensive to get, go Death Korps!!! Nothing, _nothing_ looks better on the table.


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

It all depends on what you think looks the best, and what play style you prefer. I personally like the look of the Death Korps, but it's entirely based on your opinion. In the end, I would say neither though, because they're very expensive, meaning you can get more cadian/catachan guard for cheaper. You can always buy heads with gass-masks from another company, like Max-mini, and just put them onto a Guardsman's body.


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## yshabash (Apr 11, 2010)

Neither of them are competitive and will lose against almost any competitive list. That said if your looking to have a fun army I think kreig will give you and your opponents more of a fun time.

Elysians aren't really competitive, but I don't really see anything in there that makes them stand out as a fun list. With kreig you can take superheavies, a giant drill, gas grenades and a who;e bunch of other wacky fun stuff that probably costs 3 times as much points as it can hurt :victory:.


Just know if you are focused on just winning neither of these are very good for you, vanilla guard can be VERY competitive though (just don't play a competitive guard list outside of tourneys, most people will frown and not play you.) Best thing is you can read the updated kreig rules for free right here: (you will need a pdf viewer to view this

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/k/kreig.pdf

THIS IS AN OFFICIAL FORGEWORLD LINK, THIS IS NOT PIRATED BY ANY MEANS AND FORGEWORLD HAS RELEASED THIS FOR FREE ON THEIR WEBSITE IN THE DOWNLOAD SECTION

Check it out and see if you like it. You will have to buy an imperial armor book to see the Elysian rules (I believe its 7 but you can find out very easily if your interested, google is your friend :grin:.)


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## DivineArchitect (Mar 24, 2011)

im gonna have to disagree there i dont know about elysian drop troopers but krieg get heavy mortars at 50 points a piece with 4 counting as 1 elite choice they all get reolled scatter die and they count as..ordnance barrages so essentialy that 12 hevay mortars plus whatever heavy support/weapon teams you hae thats a serious amount of templates. backed up with troops its a serious war of attrition you just out man and constanly pin your enemy..plus they have a higher weapon skill and can nearly always regroup.


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## yshabash (Apr 11, 2010)

DivineArchitect said:


> im gonna have to disagree there i dont know about elysian drop troopers but krieg get heavy mortars at 50 points a piece with 4 counting as 1 elite choice they all get reolled scatter die and they count as..ordnance barrages so essentialy that 12 hevay mortars plus whatever heavy support/weapon teams you hae thats a serious amount of templates. backed up with troops its a serious war of attrition you just out man and constanly pin your enemy..plus they have a higher weapon skill and can nearly always regroup.


While that's true their mainstay force is simply too expensive and spread out. An army like orks could probably easily take them in melee, while tau have a larger amount of guns (maybe not the same strength but they can win in a firefight because of larger numbers.) Space marines can save almost ever single one of your attacks and vanilla guard will be up in your face in two seconds with twice as many troops and tanks while being able to take out you advantage of longer range by turn two. Necrons are like space marines, chaos space marines are like space marines and orks combined. I really can't think of an army they can play competitively and win, but when playing with/against kreig you know your in for a fun time, and that's really all that counts.


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## DivineArchitect (Mar 24, 2011)

nah ill agree with that but its not the bulk of troops you do damage with they're just there to hold the line until the last man, yea you take handfulls off each turn but with iron discipline they do hold the line till the last man and meltas break up any assult even if by a small amount, you just have to keep the artillary alive and get the hades breaching drills in with the enemy, engineers with gas grenades and demo charges plus the drills metla cutter pin them between two walls of troops too thick to break through quickly giving you the chance to compensate the losses with ordance as soon as they break through, but i have only used them a few tims so far and by no means am i an experienced player but if you seize the chances when available you can win very quickly. as for orks..well you can dish out the damage as good as they give ( as long once again) you can keep artillary away from them.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

I really like the drop troop concept...amkes me think of Airborne ops in WWII. I chose them for the reason and the sweet Forge World minis. The problem is the price.

Doc


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

I didn't know Death Korps had a FW codex, interesting. I was planning on just building a fluffy army with them using the Imperial Guard codex. Lots of infantry, some artillery, a good deal of mortars, heavy boltguns, and a few autocannons scattered around. I was leaning Death Korps if for no other reason than my main opponent starting in a few months, also Guard, has Americana Guard so it would be more 'fighty' and less 'practice match' type of battles. I'll be building the army alongside his and he gets a unit every few months, I just gotta catch up to the 20 guard and a chimera.

Now they need a theme song. lol. Ride of the Valkyries is easy for Elysians, but I don't know for Death Korps.

Is the stubber takable in heavy weapons teams? The model for them with the Death Korps is awesome.


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## 1Foxman (Jan 30, 2011)

Depends on what your preference is on play style, model style/fluff and competitiveness.

On a competitive note, after playing with and against both FW lists i have to say that the elysian list in a 1500 or 1750pt game will out compete and equal points FW krieg list. Its fast, outflanking, and puts out a stunning amount of hard hitting fire power (vandetta gunships AT, normal valks Anti-infantry, hard vets squads, sentinals, venator buggies and the best choice is the vulture gunships with twin linked punisher cannons!)

While the kreig have access to heavy sieg equipement all you have to do is glance or pen the weapon emplacement and its destroyed, and its not like you can throw down super heavies in a normal game.

While when using the Imperial guard codex to write a fluff based list its dependent on your unit choice out of a wide range of selections in creating a compettive list.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Also, keep in mind you can use Death Korps as a normal IG army in tourneys and when opponents don't want to play against FW rules. You can't do that with Elysians, making the risk even greater with them.


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## yshabash (Apr 11, 2010)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Also, keep in mind you can use Death Korps as a normal IG army in tourneys and when opponents don't want to play against FW rules. You can't do that with Elysians, making the risk even greater with them.


That would however require you buy guard vehicles as well because kreig use almost completely different vehicles, and elysians would have to do the same really.


If your in a tourney though I agree that vanilla guard are the way to go if your looking to win a battle, it'll simply be easier then using any variant. Both variants also rely on superheavies and fliers, neither of which are allowed at non-apocalypse tourneys so problem solved right there :grin:

I would still like to make a kreig army though sometimes just because for once I want to try to build a funlulz list just to make random explosions and have a laugh with my opponent :friends:.


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## DivineArchitect (Mar 24, 2011)

this is probably really silly question whats a vanilla guard army...?


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## yshabash (Apr 11, 2010)

DivineArchitect said:


> this is probably really silly question whats a vanilla guard army...?


Don't worry, when I didn't know and asked on heresy online I felt like an idiot too 

Vanilla refers to the newest normal codex for the army. So 5th edition guard would be the answer.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Also, keep in mind you can use Death Korps as a normal IG army in tourneys and when opponents don't want to play against FW rules. You can't do that with Elysians, making the risk even greater with them.


 
what am I missing here?

The elysian squads all appear to be perfectly legal choices of guard units to me - sure they are a bit short of heavy weapons - but thats a legal choice, if not necessarily a good choice.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I voted Death Korps, but then remembered that the models I remember are Steel Legion. Not too different, though. I'd go with Death Korps (But use the 5th ed. Guard Codex and run them as Steel Legion i.e. take Yarrick and have the entire army mechanized in Chimeras. Lots of standard Leman Russes). Steel Legion rock, and by extension so do the Death Korps.

Midnight


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## DivineArchitect (Mar 24, 2011)

yshabash said:


> Don't worry, when I didn't know and asked on heresy online I felt like an idiot too
> 
> Vanilla refers to the newest normal codex for the army. So 5th edition guard would be the answer.


ahh i see. well in that case i dont know about elysian drop troops but i have the normal codex and the vraks books and theres almost no difference in the two...so im not sure what advantages vanilla guard as over krieg, i mean krieg still get everything most army lists have anyway. just no ogryn ratlings or sentinals.

and cheers for the definition :so_happy:


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## yshabash (Apr 11, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> I voted Death Korps, but then remembered that the models I remember are Steel Legion. Not too different, though. I'd go with Death Korps (But use the 5th ed. Guard Codex and run them as Steel Legion i.e. take Yarrick and have the entire army mechanized in Chimeras. Lots of standard Leman Russes). Steel Legion rock, and by extension so do the Death Korps.
> 
> Midnight


I agree that steel legion are pretty awesome too, maybe FW will FINALLY take our advice and give steel legion their own army book? Or at least some special rules?


@DivineArchitect

Are you sure you read the codex's for both armies (the updated kreig one, not the old one.) The kreig list has barely anything in common with the vanilla list. No chimera's or vendetta's, artillery has to be towed, The only thing they have the exact same stats for is the leman russ, and even then they have their own special variants. The lists are completely different and I would say the closest variant to vanilla guard is elysians (but they aren't really close either.) For example instead of a techpriest they get a troop equivlent, you can attach him to any squad aand he gives them feel no pain, and each servitor makes your feel no pain better

cheapest kreig formation ever:

hades breacher drill with engineers with a watchmaster and medicae-servitor retinue 

I can ram all your tanks to death on a 2+ and spam everything else with gas grenades and my engineers have a 2+ feel no pain save and a 4+ armor save. Questions?

Oh and if I'm feeling really bored I'll give them a few melta's, some mole launchers, maybe a plasma, no matter which I choose they're all going to be a lot of fun


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## DivineArchitect (Mar 24, 2011)

@ maybe not..what your saying about engineers with medicea servitors and metla's/plasmas has thrown that into dout...are they updates in one of the new volumes? cause the one i have says they only get gas grenades and demo charges...oh and mole launchers.

but yea the breaching drills are epic i plan to use a great many when the funds are right


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Maidel said:


> what am I missing here?
> 
> The elysian squads all appear to be perfectly legal choices of guard units to me - sure they are a bit short of heavy weapons - but thats a legal choice, if not necessarily a good choice.


They have carapace armor modeled on, which is a 4+ save and won't represent flak armor, the legal 5+ save from the GW codex.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> They have carapace armor modeled on, which is a 4+ save and won't represent flak armor, the legal 5+ save from the GW codex.


 
???? :crazy: ?????


Im sorry - the rules may well say that they have 'carapace' armour - but from a visual perspective they are utterly no different to the new cadian plastics.

And while we are on that - if catachans and praetorians both have flak armour - and thats the same flak armour that is represented by the big chest plates on the new cadians - then using the elysian models as flak armour is not an issue under anyones wysiwyg


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Oh really. I haven't actually studied the minis but was always under the impression their armor would look more like an SM scout as per their rules. Probably presumptuous.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Oh really. I haven't actually studied the minis but was always under the impression their armor would look more like an SM scout as per their rules. Probably presumptuous.


 
They have a bit of 'padding' in the legs, but nothing close to a space marine scout.


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

Would there be any problems with fielding a death korps army with an elysian attachment? From what little I know having tanks and infantry in a guard army means using multiple regiments anyway...

The aircav idea is grinding on me lol, definitely loving Death Korps. I kinda fear having to put together two 2k point forgeworld armies and the point that I'll be 30 before they get finished due to cost.

Part of the reason I'm doing these instead of Cadians is to sway my dad to be more accepting of the hobby. He loves stuff about the world wars and other military channel things so I'm hoping either the more modern looking troopers or the World War Germans will entice him over to my side a bit.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

DKK

Seriously, I like them of (most) IG units for whatever odd reason.


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## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

Death Korp of Krieg! Blow them up with the clones.


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