# Chaos Lord with Daemon Weapon, Which Mark?



## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Apart from my current tourney army, I'm going to add a Chaos Lord with Daemon weapon, and I'm thinking of going for a Tzeentch lord with deathscreamer, what do people think?


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## papercutdan (Oct 28, 2009)

personly i like the bloodfeeder the best but it really all has to do with the theme of your army (Nurgle Tzeench Khorne Slanesh)because they all are really good. I would go against getting the Nurgle on because of the chance you fight Toughness 3 units. And Slanesh is good but GW hands out eternal warrior like nothing.


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

When evaluating the Nurgle daemon weapon, keep in mind that the 5th edition Poisoned Weapon rules include a re-roll to wound in many of the instances where the regular to-wound roll would be better than a 4+. It's an improvement whatever the target's toughness is.

Personally, I think all of the marked daemon weapons are situational. Blissgiver is probably the most situational, and Bloodfeeder is really something to take on the win-big-or-lose-big strategy.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Nurgle DW is generally considered the best. As solkan pointed out you have 4+ to wound, with a reroll if that roll would normally be better. The bloodfeeder will injure the lord 36% of the time, making him a sitting duck. Blissgiver is very situational, although when used against a warboss + nobs is devastating. Deathscreamer's ok, but can be just as annoying as the bloodfeeder.


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

i find the death screamer to be particularly nasty, actually. a D6 str 4 ap 3 shots a turn, plus the fact its a power weapon in CC with D6 + Attack for its ability makes this one the better of the khorne and slaanesh ones. i feel nurgle does have this one beat, however, as the deathscreamer is kinda useless agenst wraithlords...


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Not only does the nurgle daemon weapon have one of the best effects, but it also has one of the best mark abilities, the best IMO. Biker lord with a MoN and daemon weapon is toughness 6 and nearly immune to normal or power weapon attacks since these are usually strength 3 or 4. It should be noted that the daemon weapon without a mark is also pretty good. Strength 5 isn't quite as good as 4+ to wound with reroll against toughness 4, but it's cheaper.


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## Dr. Boggle (Nov 16, 2009)

i would say that the blissgiver is the best but only if your going character hunting not to mention I-6 you can generally hit first against quite a few HQs

Btw- if you have the death screamer you can ONLY use it as a shooting attack and not in combat


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## Dies Irae (May 21, 2008)

as Culler said, don't forget the unmarked Lord with deamon weapon, he can be quite nasty, + he is cheaper.
I dont like the deathscreamer, because i think that there are many weapons who can do it's job in the Chaos Arsenal, and these weapons often have a higher S and sometimes will not kill you when you fire it
The Blissgiver is good for IC-hunting, whereas the Bloodfeeder is really a gamble: you can win something great (great like 17-18 attacks) but you have high chances to lose...and not attack at all.
Finally, the Nurgle DW is kinda good, and once again, I agree with Culler: Lord + MoN + bike + DW + Biker squad w/ IoN is great


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## flankman (Jan 26, 2009)

i personally field a unmarked lord to protect my troops since 5-9 str 5 attacks is pretty strong


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Take the Mark of Tzeentch for the Deathscreamer for sure. It's easily the most effective Daemon Weapon I've ever come up against. Nurgle is very nice since it's Poisoned, but too often have I seen a Deathscreamer Lord shoot up a unit of Marines and then charge, finishing them off.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

If you're set on a demon weapon, I have to advocate for the nurgle Plague Bringer or the Slannesh Blissgiver. The blissgiver is pretty damn good for taking on characters, and is the ultimate ork nob killer. With rumors in the new nid dex of the immunity of Instant Death being dropped, it could make an awesome weapon against them as well. 

Think about this, against MEQ characters, you're striking first, because of the extra I from the MoS, have all those attacks, and if even one gets through, the enemy character is toast. Excellent when combined with a lord on bike, as he can zoom in and get pick his target early on.

The Plague Bringer is great against high toughness stuff (Nids, wraith lords ect), and against normal opponents, it's better that the undivided weapon (because of the reroll). It's probably the most reliable of all the demon weapons, as you're very rarely getting hurt (unlike death screamer and blood feeder), and you can take on any opponent that comes at you without worry thanks to poison.

As for a Death Screamer, I'd prefer a Sorcerer with the MoT, Warptime and Doom Bolt. A little better, and less likely to kill himself. It does have problems when going up against armies with Psychic defences, like hoods or Runes of Warding, but generally he'll out perform a lord with Deathscreamer.


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

Dr. Boggle said:


> i would say that the blissgiver is the best but only if your going character hunting not to mention I-6 you can generally hit first against quite a few HQs
> 
> Btw- if you have the death screamer you can ONLY use it as a shooting attack and not in combat


Your statement is incorrect. Please note the bullet point of 'A Daemon Weapon:' is '* has an additional ability that varies depending on the Mark given to the bearer, as described below.' Therefore, the ranged weapon profile and ranged shooting ability of Deathscreamer is therefore *an additional ability* which can be used in addition to the close combat abilities of a regular daemon weapon.

Bloodfeeder is different because Bloodfeeder states a bonus which applies rather than the regular daemon weapon bonus.


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## Dr. Boggle (Nov 16, 2009)

solken if this is true how does the death screamer work in combat


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Dr. Boggle said:


> solken if this is true how does the death screamer work in combat


In combat, it works exactly as per the "demon weapon" rules. Basically, it works as a power weapon (at users strength) with an extra D6 attacks, rolls of 1 wound yourself and you don't attack. The shooting ability is in addition to this, not instead of it. 

This means you have two opportunities per turn to use it (shooting then assault), which also means you have two chances per turn of hurting yourself. This is kind of why I figure it's a dangerous weapon to have around...


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

maddermax said:


> This means you have two opportunities per turn to use it (shooting then assault), which also means you have two chances per turn of hurting yourself. This is kind of why I figure it's a dangerous weapon to have around...


It's technically more dangerous to use than the bloodfeeder as you can cause 2 wounds to your lord per turn. Assuming you shoot and assault with it.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

maddermax said:


> This means you have two opportunities per turn to use it (shooting then assault), which also means you have two chances per turn of hurting yourself. This is kind of why I figure it's a dangerous weapon to have around...


Aye, but with an increased Invulnerable save granted by the Mark of Tzeentch the risk of actually taking a wound after rolling a 1 isn't too bad. Plus, with two chances to use it per turn you're almost guaranteed to bag _something_.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Ah I didn't realize you could take an invulnerable save. Thanks KD.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I thought it was no saves can be taken. Not worded as Armore Saves just No Saves. I have to find my book now wherever it is.


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

Pg. 93 of codex CSM. 3rd bullet.

"adds an extra D6 Attacks in close combat. roll the dice every time the model is about to attack. if the result is a 1, the bound deamon within the weapon rebels- the model may not make any attacks in this round and suffers one wounds with no ARMOUR saves allowed."

so based off the 3rd bullet alone the arguement that the death screamer cannot do its job in CC and proven false, AND the question of invulnerable saves is nullified.

the ability to fire D6 str 4 ap 3 shots at BS 5, then charge and get 3 attacks + D6 plus a charge bonus power weapon attacks is incredible hellasious. and since it is a tzeentch only weapon, your invulnerable save is has to be a 4+, as you can't use it unless you are tzeentched....but that goes without saying.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Syko515 said:


> the ability to fire D6 str 4 ap 3 shots at BS 5, then charge and get 3 attacks + D6 plus a charge bonus power weapon attacks is incredible hellasious. and since it is a tzeentch only weapon, your invulnerable save is has to be a 4+, as you can't use it unless you are tzeentched....but that goes without saying.


Well, you'd think so, but the statistics of the death screamer don't work out all that well. This is against MEQs, the ideal target of the death screamer.


Shooting:
Death Screamer: 1.3 wounds (includes chance of hurting self)
Sorcerer with Doombolt = 1.1 (assumes normal 90% casting rate, included)
Sorcerer with Doombolt/Warptime = 1.8 (assumes 90% casting rate for both, included)

Close Combat:
Death Screamer: 1.8 wounds
Lord With Lightning Claws: 2 wounds
Chaos Sorcerer:1.33 wounds (and has force weapon)
Chaos Sorcerer with warptime: 2.66666667(and has force weapon).

Doesn't work out that great in comparison to other Tzeenchian options, though I suppose it at least can't be blocked. Anyway, That's why I advocate for the Blissgiver or Plaguebringer, both of which fill a different sort of roll to your normal options. The blissgiver is a character and multi-wound creature killer, the plague bringer is a big things killer. Both are awesome at what they do, and you should have enough normal MEQ killing guys in the rest of your army anyway. And for shooting, you can always give them a combi-plasma anyway, which can be situationally better (light vehicles and terminators die to it).

Just my 2c


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

The more this thread goes on the more Lords with DWs sound viable HQ options.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Warlock in Training said:


> The more this thread goes on the more Lords with DWs sound viable HQ options.


Until you look at the Daemon Prince entry...


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## cool_conoly (Mar 29, 2008)

My vote goes to a MoK Lord.

Reasoning: In most battles you will see between 3 and 4 rounds ofcombat for your lord. So a Bloodfeeder will be able to attack 2/3 times. With a potential 17 attacks, so over 3 rounds of combat thats a maximum of 34 attacks. the other DW's have a potential of 30 attacks over 3 rounds of combat (Not factoring in the 16.515% chance of rolling a 1)


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

If you're interested in hard numbers, the average number of attacks which a Bloodfeeder lord is going to have is 8 1/3 (not including charge bonus, but including bonus from mark).  In contrast, the average for all other daemon weapons is 5 5/6 and a generic lord with power weapon has four attacks from dual wielding, and a Khornate lord with power weapon has five attacks from dual wielding.

Result: In exchange for not quite doubling the self-inflicted wound chance (11 in 36 chance each round instead of one in six), wielding Bloodfeeder gives the lord 2 1/2 extra attacks while the other weapons give a lord 1 5/6 extra attacks plus some extra abilities. So instead of all of the fancy abilities, the Khornate lord just gets an extra two thirds of an attack on average.  Of course, when the daemon weapon doesn't rebel, the guy with Bloodfeeder gets on average twelve attacks, so it wouldn't be too bad if the weapon rebellion rule wasn't so harsh. If Bloodfeeder only rebelled on a one on the first die, then the average with rebellion factored in would climb to 9.583 attacks and that's a bit more effective.

Disclaimer: I have a winged Khornate lord with daemon weapon which I've built and painted with a passable paint scheme. I did this because I found the right figure for the conversion, and there's a certain black humor about a lord who's either going to slaughter an enemy unit or die trying. :victory:


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Tzeentch gets my vote, 1d6 shots + 1d6 attacks makes for a more versatile lord, tzeentch also gets a really nice daemonic mount with jump package.

Means that whilst closing in, that lord is able to inflict damage. The others can only do damage close in.....

Nurgle is meh, rare that you wound on less than a 4+ anyways, slanesh could be decent, if there were actually models around that were worth insta killing that weren't immune to it....

Khorne has a huge backlash chance, but with such a huge potential to completely wreck an entire unit in just a single round he gets 2nd place in my book.

I find however, that a sorcerer is more viable than a daemon weapon lord anyways usually, gets extra abilities and is almost exactly the same stat/power line...But with daemon princes so cheap, it's hard to pick anything else but them, unless fluff commands .


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Tzeench sorcerer/DP + Warptime + WoC = Win


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I run 2 Vanilla lords with Daemon weapons in the same unit.

Thats 2 models with 3 - 9 (4 - 10 on the charge) attacks at str5 and no saves. Both in CC at the same time.

Works well against certain aspect units and other CC speciaists...but its over kill on general troop choices.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I run a Termi Lord with Blood feeder. I keep this Lord with Termies. I play this guy when I play against a GK Friend. I had my T.Lord kill a entire 5 man GK Termi Squad on his own. Then he wiped out a 5 man GK squad and 3 Purgitors after that. I also had same said Lord die in 1 Round of CC because I rolled a 1 taking a wound, and then taking 2 more from GK Termies. 

Moral is they Score Big (buying back 3 times there points) or fail Big.

I never tried Nurgle or Tzeentch Lords so I should see how they work.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

A couple other points to consider against the deathscreamer are that:
-it may work against marines but once you start shooting it at terminators or Orks it really starts lacking. 
-shooting before you get into assault may deny you the charge as your opponent removes the only models you were in charge range of
-other chaos lords still get to shoot before they charge if they want. I don't have my dex with my but I'm fairly sure that lords still get a bolt pistol shot (not as effective but still a factor) and can take a combi-weapon. A single flamer shot can be much more effective than 1d6 strength 4 ap 3 shots, especially against eldar, IG, and Orks.

Just food for thought. I've run unmarked daemon weapons and plaguebringers (gotta love a character that can charge a wraithlord and take it out in one go) and encountered a couple bloodfeeders. The bloodfeeder is pretty harsh when it works but I wouldn't want to run it because the risk makes assaults against only a couple models not worth it.


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