# Plasma Cannon vs Heavy bolter



## PhoenixLord (Jan 14, 2009)

Which is best for anti infantry ? i play marines and need some help.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Neither. Take a missile launcher. It's template and can be used to take out high toughness stuff too, as well as being dirt cheap. Heavy bolters are useless if you have the option for a ML, especially in devvies and taccies. Only use them on preds, speeders and attack bikes. The plasma cannon is excellent for anti-MEQ and TEQ, and are best used on dreads (no gets hot) or in devvies (4 shots a turn), but are overkill against light infantry and more expensive, with the added danger of gets hot.

What kind of infantry are we talking and in what points/context for a more specific answer would be good...


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Plasma Canon annihilates heavy infantry (Space Marines, Terminators and the likes) with relative ease. It can also blow up pretty much every tank. 

Heavy Bolter slaughters a lot as well, but it is not as good against the likes of Terminators. It also does not have any of the Plasma Canons tank hunting models.

Plasma Canon is a bit of an overkill and heavy bolter is a meeh. 

But as you are looking for anti-infantry, I would go with a mix of both, as dropping templates along with a whithering hail of fire is always fun, and you can also drop a Terminator squad there and here, and when that occasional Leman Russ rumbles in you can always blow away some at it as well.

But... Take rockets.


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## PhoenixLord (Jan 14, 2009)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> Neither. Take a missile launcher. It's template and can be used to take out high toughness stuff too, as well as being dirt cheap. Heavy bolters are useless if you have the option for a ML, especially in devvies and taccies. Only use them on preds, speeders and attack bikes. The plasma cannon is excellent for anti-MEQ and TEQ, and are best used on dreads (no gets hot) or in devvies (4 shots a turn), but are overkill against light infantry and more expensive, with the added danger of gets hot.
> 
> What kind of infantry are we talking and in what points/context for a more specific answer would be good...


ii want them for a balanced 1500 pts list and i was thinking about giving the PC to my tact squads for 5 pts. Is there a difference in giving it to my devastators ?


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

PhoenixLord said:


> Is there a difference in giving it to my devastators ?


The difference is that you can take four, and all for five times the price of their tactical equivalent, and then there is that four plasma canons are the definition of overkill against anything.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Doelago said:


> Plasma Canon annihilates heavy infantry (Space Marines, Terminators and the likes) with relative ease. It can also blow up pretty much every tank.


Just wanted to point out the fact that most tanks are av13, and a fair percentage are av 14. Hence the above comment isn't really truthful, and please define your interpretation of with ease, last time I checked needing 5+ to do something is not easy.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Generally in non-vehicle or bike units, plasma cannons are better, but MLs are the best. Especially for all rounder lists to deal with the inevitable 3+ and 2+ saves you'll face. Heavy bolters are only really any good against DE, orks and nids, and again the missiles do a better job.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> Just wanted to point out the fact that most tanks are av13, and a fair percentage are av 14. Hence the above comment isn't really truthful, and please define your interpretation of with ease, last time I checked needing 5+ to do something is not easy.


Heard of the thing known as side/rear armor?


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## PhoenixLord (Jan 14, 2009)

Doelago said:


> The difference is that you can take four, and all for five times the price of their tactical equivalent, and then there is that four plasma canons are the definition of overkill against anything.


about the cost , if i finally decide to include PC is it better in devs or in my tact squads ? is it a good choice tacticly


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

I like plasma, and playing marines it is pretty powerful, with only the tiny little risk of gets hot! it is well worth it in a tac squad, because you are paying so little for it, its only 20 points. In Devs however, you get the volume of fire, which is a good bonus, but it is very expensive. I would go for one PC in the tac squad and 2 PC + 2 HB in the dev squad, giving you a nice mix.


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## PhoenixLord (Jan 14, 2009)

i was thinking about sth like this. i didnt get the thing about volume of fire though


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Doelago said:


> Heard of the thing known as side/rear armor?


No offense, but that was the stupidest justification I have ever seen you make. Rear armor? really if you had rear armor with a dev or dreadnought then you really should be checking to make sure you aren't blatantly cheating when you opponent isn't looking. Especially when your talking about heavy weapons.

The part about side armor is more reasonable, but come the hell on, 60% of all the guns in the game can hurt av11 side armor.

Seriously I know you are at times prone to ignore statistical fact, but really? Advocating using 30+pt one shot str 7 weapons to try and hunt anything, but av11-10 is a tad odd (Still need a 4+ to even hurt av11). Especially considering that any time you have to dedicate a incredibly expensive anti heavy infantry weapon at a tank is a sign that you have already won the game or that you should really stick to games that require less tactical acumen like say checkers.

Didn't mean to come of as a ass, but seriously that was your justification for your comment? That like saying heavy bolters work great on MC's if you get them to hold still for 3-4 turns!


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## Luisjoey (Dec 3, 2010)

Plasma Cannon is the best choice against space marines (and equivalent) and even against terminators, i took it when im going against space marines (chaos marines, necrons) 

but against swarms of enemies (orks, Ig, Nids) the plasma cannon is like killing a fly with a bazooka, you waste those points and the risk of using plasma. 

Better choice against high number of low enemies are the heavy bolter, 3 almost certain shoots that dont scatter.


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## Hammer49 (Feb 12, 2011)

I would use heavy bolters for horde armies, and plasma if I knew I would be playing meq armies.
I would probably have heavy bolters in tactical squads as usually I would have them in a rhino, so its a waste having an expensive heavy weapon not firing. The plasma cannon would be for dev squads as these would be less likely to be moving around the table, and therefore get more shots off.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> No offense, but that was the stupidest justification I have ever seen you make. Rear armor? really if you had rear armor with a dev or dreadnought then you really should be checking to make sure you aren't blatantly cheating when you opponent isn't looking. Especially when your talking about heavy weapons.


 
Well, tbh, id say quite the opposite. If you are firing at the front armour of a tank then you either deloyed wrong, dont have enough units on the table, or simply ran out of other targets.

Fine, on the first turn you are likely to be presented with frontal armour - but every other turn you should have some weapons that can fire at hte side armour of tanks.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Point still stands that one shot str 7 weapons that cost over 30+pts should not be relied on for anti tank ability in any respect, except as a last ditch method, or when all other targets are eliminated. 

Also very few tanks besides transports require you to ever expose your side armor to major threats unless your enemy is using a cross fire pattern, and most enemies with good sense will use fire base models like predators, vindicators in such a way that their side armor will still be protected. 

In short it is always a bad general who designs his strategy on their enemy making a mistake, and a good general always plan for the worse.

Seriously why are you even debating the issue maidel "fixed" surly you see the absurdity or relying on single shot str7 as dedicated anti tank?

Note: that my comment was not direct at you maidel, as I accept that versatile multiple purpose weapons have their place in all comers lists, but where in fact direct at deolago who in a lapse of judgment stated that very few tanks can survive a volly of plasma cannon shots (which I think you will agree is absurd considering that even with side armor you will hit with 3 and maybe get one good result if the target is not in cover.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

On a similar Note I'm thinking of using a Mortis pattern Dreadnaught, are dual auto cannons a good idea?


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Yes they are. For around half the cost of a dev squad you kick out a possible 4 AC shots a turn. Mind you dreadnoughts are easier to cripple or kill then dev's, but there is no better source of rapid firing light AT fire for loyalists.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I disagree for 25 points extra you can get 4 missile launcher shots from a devvie squad. And these also have better strength, one can benefit from BS5 and they have a better AP.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> Seriously why are you even debating the issue mandel surly you see the absurdity or relying on single shot str7 as dedicated anti tank?


*ahem* Maidel *ahem*

Two things:

1) I disagree with the 'side armour' being a rare target, using both flanks for heavy weapons will enable you to take shots at the side armour of any tank thats not in cover from turn 2.

2) Who said anything about plasma cannons being 'dedicated' anti tank? Its a multi role weapon, hence the points cost.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Doelago said:


> Heard of the thing known as side/rear armor?


Who's stupid enough to let you fire a plasma cannon at the back armor of a tank? =/


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Stephen_Newman said:


> I disagree for 25 points extra you can get 4 missile launcher shots from a devvie squad. And these also have better strength, one can benefit from BS5 and they have a better AP.


So dual Lascannon then? Got the option between Dual Auto Cannon, Dual Heavy Bolter or Dual Missile launchers.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Maidel said:


> *ahem* Maidel *ahem*
> 
> Two things:
> 
> ...



Note: that my comment was not direct at you maidel, as I accept that versatile multiple purpose weapons have their place in all comers lists, but said comment was in fact direct at deolago who in a lapse of judgment stated that very few tanks can survive a volley of plasma cannon shots (which I think you will agree is absurd considering that even with side armor you will hit with 3 and maybe get one good result if the target is not in cover.
Which statistically supports the idea that you can't depend on plasma cannons as your primary heavy weapon.



Stephen_Newman said:


> I disagree for 25 points extra you can get 4 missile launcher shots from a devvie squad. And these also have better strength, one can benefit from BS5 and they have a better AP.


Good point, however is that cost reflective of a 5 man or ten man squad, also while I am asking are mortis dreadnoughts elites or heavies in the loyaist codec, if they are also a heavy choice then I will agree with you that missile launcher marines probably have the edge when it comes to usefulness.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

There are no Mortis Dreads (Dark Angels only), just 2x Twin Autocannon Dreadnoughts. And they're Elites, but Heavy Support with the use of a Master of the Forge.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

The simple deal is this. ML's in a dev squad have the versatility to be either at or anti horde. The 4 shots combined with the choice of frag or krak is very handy.
4 plasmacannons is overkill for anything apart for 20man squads of marines. Even with chaos plasmacannons(oblits)they are usually fielded either singly or in pairs and are used to eliminate heavy infantry (and guard heavy weapon teams) but rarely against armor(usually use the oblit lascannon for that.
Rifleman dreads are highly effective. 4 shots with rerolls to hit, high strength can be very effective against light armor and mc's. And because of the volume of fire it is not a waste to unload it on a marine squad if there are no other targets.
Personally in my last game i ran 2 squads of csm havocs. Each with 2 missile launchers and 2 autocannons. The results were quite good against marines but this is an all comers build. Performed admirably against defilers dreads and rhinos. I was quite happy.


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

shaantitus said:


> The simple deal is this. ML's in a Dev squad have the versatility to be either anti-tank or anti-horde. The 4 shots combined with the choice of frag or krak is very handy.
> 
> 4 plasmacannons is overkill for anything apart for 20-man squads of Marines. Even with Chaos plasma cannons (Oblits) they are usually fielded either singly or in pairs and are used to eliminate heavy infantry (and Guard heavy weapon teams) but rarely against armor (usually use the Oblit lascannon for that)...


This. I've had great results from plasma cannons on my Obliterators, for sure, but with Havocs I'd almost certainly go for missile launchers for the sheer versatility; heavy bolters can be fantastic against the right target (my friend *SilverTabby*'s Retributor squad gets great results with them), but overall if I had to choose just one loadout for them I'd go for missle launchers. 

That said, the true convertaholic knows the way forward is this: make a couple of bolter-wielding Havocs to be the ablative armour for the squad, then make 4 Havocs with heavy bolters (I got lucky on Ebay and have 4 of the old-school over-the-shoulder heavy bolters ready to use) and 4 more with missile launchers and then swap them out with each game as the opposing army dictates


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

LukeValantine said:


> Good point, however is that cost reflective of a 5 man or ten man squad, also while I am asking are mortis dreadnoughts elites or heavies in the loyaist codec, if they are also a heavy choice then I will agree with you that missile launcher marines probably have the edge when it comes to usefulness.


From Imperial Armour they are Elites for Dark Angels and Unforgiven



Vaz said:


> There are no Mortis Dreads (Dark Angels only), just 2x Twin Autocannon Dreadnoughts. And they're Elites, but Heavy Support with the use of a Master of the Forge.


They are in Imperial Armour Vol 2 and have the option of the weapon systems I mentioned before.


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