# Obyron WITHOUT Zahndrekh?



## Deneris (Jul 23, 2008)

Taking yet another stroll in the Necron codex, I noticed you can take Obyron without taking Zahndrekh, but then Obyron counts as an HQ choice. Now, he IS 160 points, but comes with a decent set of rules/stats, especially that improved Veil of Darkness.

I was thinking of teaming him up with Anrakyr and whatever bodyguard unit I have available on that day (Lychguard or Pyrrian Eternals) as a means of getting Anrakyr closer to his "Mind in the Machine" range, and also adding a bit of punch to the inevitable counter-attacks from angry tank owners.

So, what do you assembled Necron Royalty think of that idea? And yes, I know Anrakyr is "useless" versus armies with no vehicles, but I like him and his fluff, so I stick with him regardless of who I fight...


----------



## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

Seeing as Anrakyr can get a veiltek for much cheaper, I'd say thats the way to go.


----------



## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

I want to like Obyron, I really do, but his lack of an Invuln save kinda kills it for me. As such, he pretty much has to be paired with lychguard w/ shields in order to survive against units with Power-Weapons.

Also, I kinda agree. For 100 points cheaper, you can get a veil-tek that does the same exact thing.


----------



## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

He's ok at munching troops squads, that is all i see in him.


----------



## Deneris (Jul 23, 2008)

Lord Azune said:


> Seeing as Anrakyr can get a veiltek for much cheaper, I'd say thats the way to go.


Aye, that's how I normally field Anrakyr- Veiltek and Lychguards with swords and boards. But I also like the idea of having a SECOND Veil in the army, so that's TWO squads that can get to those hard to reach targets... though 160pts for said improved Veil IS a bit steep. BUT I usually play at 2k plus, so it's not as much as an issue...


----------



## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

I despise name characters. Especially Obyron, honestly, because he has special rules that sound certainly fancy, but are very easy to deny. Unlike other Necrons, he can teleport out of cc?! 3 power weapons later and that isn't happening? Same with cleaving counterblow. Everyone and their grandma has power weapons these days, and good freakin luck deep striking near an opponent who will let you stay in assault range for the next turn (Assuming you survive their shooting/assault round)
I'll take a regular Overlord who contributes to the battle plan.


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

He is basically a lord with a built in veil. Power weapons are actually rare statistically so that's not really a problem with his T5 and higher WS. The real issue is the fact that smart opponents will target his squad denying any advantage he has in CC over a regular lord with warsythe. The real weakness he presents however is the fact that he takes up a HQ slot but does not open up a royal court meaning he is a liability at high 1750+pt games, and will only really work at low pt games or really high point games were he can generate a extra veil without taking up a HQ slot (Were he will be joined up with his master).

Other words I don't see his point unless its a -1000pts or 1750+ pt game.


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Unless you are charging CC specialists (Which you should never ever do ever) or allowing CC specialists to charge you (Which, again, you should never let happen) Obyron's lack of an invuln save means about dick. Against units with no power weapons, all they can do is give him free extra attacks once I2 rolls around.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

He's a bit of a noob stomper; he can munch through Tactical Squads, CSM, Guardsmen, Kroot etc. but can't stand up against actual CC units, like Terminators, Sanguinary Guard (who may as well be designed for killing him specifically), Nobz etc.

That's his problem - you pay 160pts and a HQ slot (or another bucket of points for Zahndrekh) to be able to kill basic infantry if you can get to them, and if they don't have a hidden Power Fist. Why not get another unit to kill those infantry, maybe one that can also do other stuff? Take, for example, a unit of 5 Lychguard. They'll cost around 40pts more, IIRC, but can not only take on Tacticals, they can take on some of those scary assault units! Even if they can't they'll deal a lot more damage to them than Obyron will on his lonesome, due to their surviving melee attacks much more efficiently (whether it be through more wounds and thus more attempts at Reanimation or through their 4++). True, Obyron has the 2+ armour, but what makes him _really_ tough? Surprisingly, it's his Toughness 5. Plague Marines aren't hard to kill because of their Feel No Pain (although it helps), it's the added Toughness from the Mark of Nurgle.

What are you on about, Power Weapons statisically rare? Almost all close combat units have one, and some people swear by hidden Power Fists on their shooting choices.

Midnight


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Oh yes. Getting ambushed by a powerfist sergeant kept alive through wound allocation is incredibly nerve wracking and basically requires an invuln save to live through.

I advocated obyron in my earlier post but I should be clear on one thing, and that is to never take him by himself. He's almost purpose-built to be put into a unit of lychguard. Not a phaeron thus no relentless, and no schwoopy-woopy? Thats ok. Lychguard can't shoot. Obyron has no invulnerable saves to protect him from AP2 and other very nasty threats? Stick that wound on a Lychguard to take an Invuln save and act like a meat shield (Because thats what they are, even in the fluff). Bonus: If you save against the shot, you reflect it into something (If there is an enemy unit within 6" of course, and it wasn't a blast or template weapon).

Ta-da! Schwoopy-woopy without phaeron!

Joking aside, because he doesn't have phaeron, it makes him a bad choice to put with a shooty unit. Also, the fact he himself cannot shoot and is not designed to lead shooties will affect that decision as well. The leaves you with all of the various non-jump infantry non-MC non-beast melee units in the Necron codex to choose from: Lychguard.

Or eterniteks. Go ahead. Make a unit of nothing but eterniteks. I dare you.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> Oh yes. Getting ambushed by a powerfist sergeant kept alive through wound allocation is incredibly nerve wracking and basically requires an invuln save to live through. I wouldn't think for a moment that you were being sarcastic here, Angel
> 
> I advocated obyron in my earlier post but I should be clear on one thing, and that is to never take him by himself. He's almost purpose-built to be put into a unit of lychguard. Not a phaeron thus no relentless, and no schwoopy-woopy? Thats ok. Lychguard can't shoot. Obyron has no invulnerable saves to protect him from AP2 and other very nasty threats? Stick that wound on a Lychguard to take an Invuln save and act like a meat shield (Because thats what they are, even in the fluff). Bonus: If you save against the shot, you reflect it into something (If there is an enemy unit within 6" of course, and it wasn't a blast or template weapon). This does sound very workeable - when used like this, maybe piled into a Night Scythe or somthing, I think that this is a very viable strategy for Obyron. Deep Striking doesn't appeal to me for melee units, but I won't pretend that Lychguard with Obyron are inherently bad full stop
> 
> ...


For the record, this joining-a-unit plan is entirely viable. It's just the unreliability of vulnerability of Deep Striking an expensive unit that I don't like. As I said, throw in a Night Scythe and you're looking at a much more worrisome unit (primarily because it's easier to focus an army around - small units of Immortals and other Lychguard in Night Scythes, two or three Annihilation Barges and a CCB to shield Obyron's ride, and you've got a compact army that packs a punch.

Midnight


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

> I wouldn't think for a moment that you were being sarcastic here, Angel
> 
> I _wasn't_ being sarcastic. I got mauled once from that. Thought I won the combat til the numbers came back and the powerfist had killed only two less lychguard than I had killed tac marines. FFFF. I won the combat but still. One powerfist taking that much out.
> 
> ...


WORDS HERE.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

> I don't really like night scythes as transports for anything I can deep strike, or in general. Night scythes are a testament to the superiority of Necron engineers who work exclusively with paper mache. By that I mean if you give it a mean look it bursts into flames and explodes. How do you space marine players deal with having to take rhinos anyway!? They aren't AV13 or anything!





> Those of you who come here know that rhinos are a force-multiplier. They're not good at killing infantry, don't endure massive amounts of firepower, and have no way to deal with armor, but they don't need to.
> 
> Rhinos make sure your infantry gets from A to B faster and safer than on foot, and once you're at B, their armor protects the squad inside. This is their strength, and all you want from them. You all know this, but not everybody else out there does.


How do you Necron players deal with having transports that cost more than 35pts?

Midnight


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

The thing with the rhinos _was_ sarcasm.

you also bring up another excellent point, which is their pretty huge cost compared to transports other races get.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

:fool:

Sorry for any offence, I derped a herp at reading the sarcasm.

Midnight


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Though they do get the tesla destructor, which they might get to use if they don't get shot...


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> Though they do get the tesla destructor, which they might get to use *if they don't get shot...*


:rofl:

Man, your weapons SUCK! We get, like, twin-linked bolters! Bow before the fury of the Storm Bolter! Havoc Launchers are actually quite good, but still, guns on transports :laugh:

Midnight


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

But the thing is they put like the best gun we have on it. The only way it could be more ridiculous is if it had the doomsday cannon on it. Imagine if your rhino had two twin-linked Lascannon sponsons and a battle cannon or something.

If you are moving in a night scythe, you're probably moving flat out to get it where it needs to go in a hurry. That means no shooting. So it goes a bit like this:

-flat out
-disembark
-transport shot to pieces

If we had a gauss flayer array? Fine. A tesla cannon? OK. But a TL Tesla Destructor? Thats literally mounting a doomgun on a paper plane.


----------



## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

Razorwings and Voidravens manage it just fine, and with less armour to boot. When in doubt, take multiples. You can fit a surprising amount of them in a 2000 point list. So if you take 3 of them even, and a couple doom scythes to add to the assault, it looks more like
Flat out
Lose one or two ships
Disembark
FSU


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

The main thing with night scythes, however, is I have a serious problem with how their destruction is resolved in relation to their cargo.

If a rhino or something gets wrecked, its occupants pile out. It sucks but the only real thing is now they have to walk. Not the worst fate. If a night scythe gets wrecked, its occupants enter reserves and have to walk on from table edge if they don't have Deep Strike rules. This is _horrible._

EDIT: Scratch that. They can't deep strike. They ARE walking on from table edge.


----------



## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

So place your objectives close to home. At least you're never going to suffer lost men to a shitty explosion roll. You could also throw a monolith in there to get reserves back on field.


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

So I'm taking not only the night scythe but a monolith to transport them in the event it gets blown up?

Why don't I just start them in reserves then and duck the 100 point cost of the night scythe? I can get some more immortals or another Annihilation Barge or something that will be a lot more useful.

Theres just no way I find night scythes to be useful. The contingencies for if they fail are not only more useful than the night scythe itself, but the enormous price of the night scythe pulls points out of other parts of my army.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

100pts isn't a massive price. Obyron, 5 Lychguard, Zahndrekh, a Stormtek, and Imhotek is a massive price...

Seriously, for the extra 100pts, a Night Scythe would make this strategy infinitely more reliable. Not as reliable as a Doom Scythe, but more reliable than Deep Strike.

Midnight


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> 100pts isn't a massive price. Obyron, 5 Lychguard, Zahndrekh, a Stormtek, and Imhotek is a massive price...












I didn't take Zandrekh in that battle though.


----------



## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

I get giddy at the prospect of having 9 tesla destructors that have a 36" threat range and can drop off necrons to boot. I think that you are missing the trade off- annihilation barge has quantum shielding, sure, but it's open topped and slow. For ten points more, I get the same gun but it moves supersonic, isn't open topped, and drops off troops. Sure, it's two points less armour, but really... The weapons that shoot at vehicles usually already have a 60/40 chance of penetration. What's wrong with upping the odds to 70/30 if you're hitting them with a bunch more next turn?


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

It doesn't matter if you're armour 10 or 14 when Melta gets involved, so it' not THAT big a deal. Although a Flat Out cover save does help immeasurably, which is the Night Scythe's way of compensating for a lack of Quantum Shielding.

Midnight


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

I'm also morally opposed to transports.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Well then, I guess 5th edition is a massive middle finger to you, then.

Midnight


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

It sure is.


----------



## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

I used to be until the new codex came out and I started seeing past the third turn of the game


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Sothot said:


> I get giddy at the prospect of having 9 tesla destructors that have a 36" threat range and can drop off necrons to boot. I think that you are missing the trade off- annihilation barge has quantum shielding, sure, but it's open topped and slow. For ten points more, I get the same gun but it moves supersonic, isn't open topped, and drops off troops. Sure, it's two points less armour, but really... The weapons that shoot at vehicles usually already have a 60/40 chance of penetration. What's wrong with upping the odds to 70/30 if you're hitting them with a bunch more next turn?


Tesla destructors have a 24" range, not a 36" range. I wish.


----------



## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> Tesla destructors have a 24" range, not a 36" range. I wish.


Move 12, shoot 24. 12 + 24 = 36


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

I guess I'm too used to playing defensively, because I simply measure weapon range because thats how close you have to be to your opponent once their turn comes.


----------



## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

I think scythe spam means you should be playing like dark eldar: get where you need to go fast, hope their punch doesn't hurt, and drop death. In 2000 points I fit in 6 night and 3 doom. There's no way i'm crashing all of them, and if my opponent goes first, that's sooner shooting for you.


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Well the Supersonic rule, I will admit, gives you an extraordinary amount of mobility. Take zandrekh and give one stealth and its a 2+ cover save. Of course, with 9 of them, its going to be a little harder than that, but if you have just one or one that is critical, like the one holding an HQ or something, you can increase its survivability.


----------



## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> Well the Supersonic rule, I will admit, gives you an extraordinary amount of mobility. Take zandrekh and give one stealth and its a 2+ cover save. Of course, with 9 of them, its going to be a little harder than that, but if you have just one or one that is critical, like the one holding an HQ or something, you can increase its survivability.


it's a 3+ cover save with stealth, not 2+


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

mcmuffin said:


> it's a 3+ cover save with stealth, not 2+


Going Flat Out in a Skimmer gives you a 3+ cover save off the bat, so Stealth does make it a 2+.

Midnight


----------



## pantat (May 15, 2011)

Surely Flat Out in a Skimmer is only 4+ Cover? Otherwise I've been playing it wrong with my Stormraven for ages....


----------



## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

A skimmer that has moved flat out in it's movement phase counts as obscured, cover save 4+. BRB pg. 71.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I derped a herp.

Thinking of Turbo Boosters. My bad!

Midnight


----------



## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

Iron Angel said:


> Well the Supersonic rule, I will admit, gives you an extraordinary amount of mobility. Take zandrekh and give one stealth and its a 2+ cover save. Of course, with 9 of them, its going to be a little harder than that, but if you have just one or one that is critical, like the one holding an HQ or something, you can increase its survivability.


I am taking a bargelord with a scythe for this list. The army just zooms around and Zandrekh would be left behind. To give him a barge is a 265 point model or something like that and his sweep is pretty tame compared to a 180 point nameless bargelord. 

...does anyone have a thread derailed image to throw in here?


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Midnight


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> I derped a herp.
> 
> Thinking of Turbo Boosters. My bad!
> 
> Midnight


Thats me too. I'm so used to turbo-boosting my scarabs (even though they can't do that any more) and having them get a 2+ cover save.


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Sothot said:


> I am taking a bargelord with a scythe for this list. The army just zooms around and Zandrekh would be left behind. To give him a barge is a 265 point model or something like that and his sweep is pretty tame compared to a 180 point nameless bargelord.
> 
> ...does anyone have a thread derailed image to throw in here?


Unless you put him in the scythe.

Can he use his ability from inside the transport? I know he can't use counter-tactics since that requires LOS, but he can still use Adaptive Tactics right?


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I don't know; despite me 'knowing the Codex fairly well' I don't actually own a copy, so if you could post up the wording for us to have a looksee?

Midnight


----------



## pantat (May 15, 2011)

"Adaptive Tactics:
At the start of each of your turns in which Zahndrekh is on the battlefield, choose one friendly unit, then choose one of the following special rules: ....... The chosen unit has the chose special rule until the start of your next turn. "

No LOS so guess it works?

Btw, why would counter tactics not work from the transport? Surely its open-topped so he can 'see' out of it?


----------



## pantat (May 15, 2011)

Oh wait you were talking about him in the night scythe, so fine can't see. But what about the command barge? (same question)


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I dunno - you could rule it either way. 'On the battlefield' could be interpreted as 'not dead or in reserves', OR as 'deployed as a model'.

Don't Night Scythes just act as moving portals for dudes in reserves anyway, there's nobody actually _in_ them?

Midnight


----------



## pantat (May 15, 2011)

Yeah true I suppose, on a side not, I know some people saying Anrakry can't use his machine thing from a barge, but I don't understand why not?


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Well, the FAQ states that the only thing models inside can see out for is shooting and psyker powers. So, according to the FAQ, putting him in a barge actually takes his powers away, strangely enough.

I don't know how the scythe works fluffwise. If it was like that it would be like the monolith portal where you just pick a unit in reserves and bring it in, but you actually have to dedicate a unit for the scythe. I don't know how that works.

So, since you are declaring a unit to be contained in the night scythe, and it says that if it is destroyed the unit is _placed in reserves,_ it's obviously not there to begin with. So I would say he is "on the battlefield".


----------



## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

It's a different kind of portal I suppose. I would have to say you can't use tactics from a night scythe; Zandrekh has been shooped into an alternate dimension, he isn't actually aboard the scythe. I think many opponents would be cheesed if you used his special rules from it and claimed no penalties to him should the ship explode. 
Being placed in reserves doesn't count as a penalty. Nobody dies from that.


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Well that would happen no matter what. Its not something that he himself has to declare. Its just something that happens at the start of your turn. I would also say people would be cheesed if they killed Trazyn and he just possessed some lord somewhere, but you can do that too.

Its gonna have too be FAQ'd to achieve an official position on it.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I can't access .PDFs from here, but I think that _all_ transports are shoopy whoopy alternate dimensions, into which even the Shadow in the Warp cannot reach.

I'd look at the Eldar FAQ and see whether Autarchs can use Master Strategist from within a transport - if so, I'd let the Zahndrekh thing through and vice versa.

Midnight


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Well, the answer to that would be easier to find if anyone used Autarchs ever.


----------



## pantat (May 15, 2011)

But you use it in the shooting phase and he is effectively shooting but through the medium of choosing an emeny vehicle first so i completely don't understand why it wouldn't be allowed??


----------



## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

That's Trazyn's special rules though, and to use Zandrekh's he has to be on the battlefield. I'd rather take Imotekh in a scythe spam list if i'm going to waste my points on a character. Personally, I think the named characters are all overpriced and gimmicky and I've been far more successful with Overlords and Destroyer Lords.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> Well, the answer to that would be easier to find if anyone used Autarchs ever.


Except this list, this list, and this list. I could go on, but I think I've made my point.

Yriel's a beast.

Midnight


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I wish I could be more help on discussing the validity of the OP's idea, but sadly I have dropped out of experimenting with necrons until those bastards at GW at least release wraiths and spyders.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sothot said:


> That's Trazyn's special rules though


Hell no it ain't, it's Anrakyr's.

God, at least get your overly complicated, weirdly spelt, blatant Egyptian rip off metal man names right. God.

Midnight


----------



## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

Still, with stealth, that's a 3+ which isn't terrible for a vehicle.


----------



## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> Hell no it ain't, it's Anrakyr's.
> 
> God, at least get your overly complicated, weirdly spelt, blatant Egyptian rip off metal man names right. God.
> 
> Midnight


Sorry, should have quoted Iron Angel. I was referring to his post about Trazyn cheesing his opponents. Although I have detected a hefty amount of sarcasm in your post


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sarcasm? Never.

Midnight


----------



## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Lord Azune said:


> Still, with stealth, that's a 3+ which isn't terrible for a vehicle.


3+ cover for vehicles is amazing, and is surprisingly easy to achieve with the boxy shape of imperial vehicles.


----------



## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

Sothot said:


> It's a different kind of portal I suppose. I would have to say you can't use tactics from a night scythe; Zandrekh has been shooped into an alternate dimension, he isn't actually aboard the scythe. I think many opponents would be cheesed if you used his special rules from it and claimed no penalties to him should the ship explode.
> Being placed in reserves doesn't count as a penalty. Nobody dies from that.


Sothot, Zandrekh would give the bonus but since taking the USR from a unit requires LOS, he would not be able to do that. If he's in a transport, he still counts as on the battlefield until its destroyed and he is placed into reserves.


----------



## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

The only reason I think it wouldn't work is because it's a transport with no fire points, and no models actually aboard.


----------



## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

Rules wise, they're inside the vehicle until its blown up and THEN they are placed in reserves. So, they're technically inside it. His ability requires no line of sight, just that he is on the field in some manner, which he is.


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Taking rules away requires LOS, giving them does not. The thing most people seem to be confused about is that Zandrekh is not some kind of rules vampire where he takes your rules then gives those same rules to one of his units. Its just that you lose all those rules if he can see you. And that he can give one of a list of rules to any unit on the field. The two are not related in any way. He would still be able to give one of his own units the USR because it doesn't require LOS and instead just needs him to exist.

As for ICs being overpriced:

Imotekh pays 35 points for Lord of the Storm, Humiliating Defeat, Staff of the Destroyer, Bloodswarm Nanoscarabs, and Hyperlogical Strategy. All well worth 35 points.

Zandrekh pays 5 points for adaptive tactics, counter tactics, and phased reinforcements. 5 points.

Obyron pays 5 points for Cleaving Counterblow and The Varguard's Duty.

Anrakyr pays 35 points for Mind in the Machine, Pyrrhian Eternals, FC, and Counter Attack. 

Trazyn pays 50 points for Empathic Obliterator, Surrogate Hosts, and E!APftC. I think that those are worth it.

They aren't all that overpriced. Zandrekh and Obyron are by far the best deals in the codex, followed closely by Imotekh.


----------



## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

No swappable loadouts, often gimmicky rules, and often a giant bullseye on their heads. Sometimes I only want to pay 180 points to get a decent barge lord on the table, followed by a nice lance court. Go ahead, continue sinking 500 or more points into your hq slot. I've used them all and only Imotekh did a lick of good for me. But again, there's no justifying 225 points on one model in a 1500 point game.


----------



## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

Iron Angel said:


> As for ICs being overpriced:
> 
> Imotekh pays 35 points for Lord of the Storm, Humiliating Defeat, Staff of the Destroyer, Bloodswarm Nanoscarabs, and Hyperlogical Strategy. All well worth 35 points.
> 
> ...


You also forgot two of the ICs.

Szeras: A Glorified Cryptek of Destruction who can give a random augmentation to a single unit of Immortals or Warriors. 1/3 chance of a Strength increase, which is useless. Again, no court option so I'd pass on him.

Orikan: A Glorified Cryptek of Eterinity. While no court option, his special rules are better than Szeras, especially when paired with C'tan with Writhing Worldscape. Also makes rolling for reserves easier with re-rolls. 


The point is, while Obyron, to you, might be a good deal, he still robs you of a Royal Court, unless you take Zahndrekh as well, which right there is 345 points on those two alone. That is a lot for your HQ slot in most games. Again, for 100 points less, you can get a Veil-Tek who can do roughly the same exact thing. Its not good in CC, but it complements shooty units better, especially Deathmarks.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I'll jump on the snowmobile:



Iron Angel said:


> Imotekh pays 35 points for Lord of the Storm, Humiliating Defeat, Staff of the Destroyer, Bloodswarm Nanoscarabs, and Hyperlogical Strategy. All well worth 35 points. But doesn't have a Warscythe. Staff of the Destroyer, Bloodswarm Nanoscarabs and Humiliating Defeat aren't very good.
> 
> Zandrekh pays 5 points for adaptive tactics, counter tactics, and phased reinforcements. 5 points. But would you buy all the wargear he has on a normal Overlord? No.
> 
> ...


Obyron? No Invulnerable, three wounds, can be picked out in combat, initiative two. Hardly the best deal in history. Zahndrekh? Good character, yes, but not the best thing ever. Stormlord? Expensive, and weak in combat. Also hinders your own army with Night Fighting.

Midnight


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

I find it amusing that in one sentence you say that combat ability is useless so shouldn't be taken into account, but then talk about how being bad in combat is a negative for a model that doesn't need to be in combat.

That said, Imotekh is very good against swarmy armies, for reasons I have analyzed in my GoF thread.

As a long-time necron player, I know that picking your targets is more important than anywhere else. I know you all have deathstars and hammernators and long fangs and other boondoggles that are godlike against everything, but things in the Necron codex are puzzle pieces, not whole pictures. you just have to figure out which piece goes where, and once you can do that, it should be smooth sailing.

Obyron is not Abbadon. He can't wade into a unit of anything and maul it to death. Looking at his profile:
-Warscythe. High strength attack with extra power against vehicles, ignore armor.
-Ghostwalk mantle. The ability to get out of combat with hammernators.
-Cleaving counterblow. Strikes back against misses. This is obviously designed to 1: deter the opponent from allocating a mountain of hits on him, and 2: give him beyond killy abilities against massed non-power weapon attacks.
-The Varguard's Duty. I think this is here for fluff reasons.
-Semp weave. 2+ armor save. Wards off a lot of non power-weapon attacks.

Upon examination, he's a mid-strength predator, designed to kill tac marines, aspect warriors, boyz, anything that lacks power weapons. He wont last long against Meganobz, Dreadknights, or anything specifically designed to be a brick. Kill those with a doomsday ark. Thats what its for.

Zandrekh is obviously meant to be placed with a shooty unit, and if you get in rapid fire range, then the staff of light comes into play. You can allocate a nasty wound on him to save with his 3++ or 2+, and he has a res orb for all the extra shooting wounds they will take. Plus his rules shenanigans alone are worth 5 points, not to mention the ability to call in reinforcements that can assault your next turn.



MidnightSun said:


> Obyron? No Invulnerable unnecessary, two wounds oh you changed it to say three after I pointed it out you sneaky devil you, can be picked out in combat like every other IC in the game, which is a thing Cleaving Counterblow strongly deters once people realize what it does, initiative two like every other Necron. Hardly the best deal in history. Zahndrekh? Good character, yes, but not the best thing ever. Stormlord? Expensive, and weak in combat. Also hinders your own army with Night Fighting which only matters if you've taken three doomsday arks and no Pulses like a putz.


Whats this about a snowmobile?


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> I find it amusing that in one sentence you say that combat ability is useless so shouldn't be taken into account, but then talk about how being bad in combat is a negative for a model that doesn't need to be in combat.


Where did I say combat ability is useless? Coming from me, who frequents between a Daemon Prince and Kharn the Betrayer, that would be the height of hypocrisy and I'd like to see it.



Iron Angel said:


> That said, Imotekh is very good against swarmy armies, for reasons I have analyzed in my GoF thread.


But he's not so good against MEQs, and it was pointed out in that thread that taking a GoF over a Warscythe is list tailoring. A character that can only deal with one type of enemy isn't really great. Kharn has enough attacks to scare hordes, but also scare the crap out of MEQs with a Power Weapon.



Iron Angel said:


> As a long-time necron player, I know that picking your targets is more important than anywhere else. I know you all have deathstars and hammernators and long fangs and other boondoggles that are godlike against everything, but things in the Necron codex are puzzle pieces, not whole pictures. you just have to figure out which piece goes where, and once you can do that, it should be smooth sailing.


You can't be a long-time Necron player when the codex hasn't even been out four months; Necrons are a lot different in the new Codex, with less resilience but higher damage output and lots of trickery and special effects rather than sheer power (although I'm sure you've already got this sussed). Synergy's nothing new though - using different units for different jobs has been in every xenos Codex since Tyranids, and arguably before.



Iron Angel said:


> Obyron is not Abbadon. He can't wade into a unit of anything and maul it to death. Looking at his profile:
> -Warscythe. High strength attack with extra power against vehicles, ignore armor.
> -Ghostwalk mantle. The ability to get out of combat with hammernators.
> -Cleaving counterblow. Strikes back against misses. This is obviously designed to 1: deter the opponent from allocating a mountain of hits on him, and 2: give him beyond killy abilities against massed non-power weapon attacks.
> ...


It's unreasonable to think that he's on par with the like of Abaddon, the Sanguinor, the Swarmlord or Ghazghkull Thraka, because he's around 75pts cheaper than most of the listed. A better comparison would be Kharn the Betrayer, or Kor'sarro Khan. Ghostwalk Mantle is unlikely to get him out of combat without him taking significant bruising, and if you're running away from Hammernators, what the hell are you attacking to make that 225pts of Lychguard worth it? Cleaving Counterblow's nice, but only if you get to strike ahead of whatever you're fighting, and they die easy. True, Power Fists and Thunder Hammers will be going after you, but reasonably they're held by characters with either a lot of ablative wounds (Nobz) or by guys with a solid invulnerable save (Hammernators), or both (Paladins). The fact is, you're spending 160pts, which is quite a lot, on a guy who can beat up Tacticals. The sorry fact is that other units in the Necron army do this for cheaper.



Iron Angel said:


> Upon examination, he's a mid-strength predator, designed to kill tac marines, aspect warriors, boyz, anything that lacks power weapons. He wont last long against Meganobz, Dreadknights, or anything specifically designed to be a brick. Kill those with a doomsday ark. Thats what its for.


He's desgined to kill Tacticals, but Annihilation Barges and Doomsday Arks do that too. So what role does he fulfill?



Iron Angel said:


> Zandrekh is obviously meant to be placed with a shooty unit, and if you get in rapid fire range, then the staff of light comes into play. You can allocate a nasty wound on him to save with his 3++ or 2+, and he has a res orb for all the extra shooting wounds they will take. Plus his rules shenanigans alone are worth 5 points, not to mention the ability to call in reinforcements that can assault your next turn.


But you can't just buy his rule shenanigans - you need to buy the kinda paperweight Zahndrekh too. He's not omgwtfterrible, like Kherudruakh, but he's not really good, like Dante or Ghazghkull. He's not as bad in this regard as Fabius Bile, who's bought purely for his Enhanced Marines but is next to useless himself, but Zahndrekh's getting that way. His I-steal-your-rulez ability and his I-give-out-buffs-like-a-Sanguinary-Priest-on-crack is also trendy, but apart from that you're not buying a lot.



Iron Angel said:


> Whats this about a snowmobile?
> 
> Obyron? No Invulnerable unnecessary, two wounds oh you changed it to say three after I pointed it out you sneaky devil you, can be picked out in combat like every other IC in the game, which is a thing Cleaving Counterblow strongly deters once people realize what it does, initiative two like every other Necron. Hardly the best deal in history. Zahndrekh? Good character, yes, but not the best thing ever. Stormlord? Expensive, and weak in combat. Also hinders your own army with Night Fighting which only matters if you've taken three doomsday arks and no Pulses like a putz.


Harder to answer this one, so I'll do it in order:
Invulnerables aren't necessary: Oh, but they are! Without one, you have not one glimpse of a hope of taking power weapon hits. What if your expensive Lychguard unit, having been charged by Hammernators, scatters on the Deep Strike and gets assaulted by a Dreadnought? It only takes one wound to get through and you'll be stuck there until you die. Orks? One smack with a Power Klaw on the Warboss is all it takes. Grey Knights? Well, I'd say something about Daemonhammers but they're universally armed with Force Weapons anyway, often at Strength 5.

Can be picked out like all special characters: It's a particularly big problem for Obyron, though, due to his lack of invulnerable save. Any power weapon or power fist in the squad will go straight into him.

'Like every other Necron': That doesn't redeem it. I2 is still bad. I think it was TKE made the good point that rear AV10 isn't low because 99% of all vehicles in the game have it. I2 is bad because 99% of a single army in the game has it (he missed out, for example, Orks, but the point stands because Orks are often I3), but the majority of other armies have I3 or higher.

'Only matters if you took three doomsday arks': Not really. The average Night Fight roll is 21", which is inhibiting the range of even your Gauss Flayers.

Midnight


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

If you're in range to shoot Gauss Flayers turn one, then 1: You've deployed very far forward, or 2: The enemy is right on top of you and you have bigger problems than how far you can see in a night fight. DD arks and Imotekh don't play well together, because you need to have two pulses to maximise their shooting, and then you have to pop them on your own turn. This makes imotekh useless since you could have taken those same two pulses and just popped them on the enemy turns instead to get the same damn thing (Albeit with no unreliable lightning). All I'm saying is, synergy. Imotekh and a long range army don't go together. Take zandrekh for a long range army instead, so he can give a doomsday ark Tank Hunters for some S10 AP1 power, or a Destructek or a unit of Heavy Destroyers. You have to think of the whole army at once. Imotekh works well with a mid-range or scarab/wraith heavy army because it doesn't murder your own shooting phase as badly.

When I say "long time", I mean old necrons which were just as critical with their target selection (Though their choices were inarguably far more limited). The players may have changed, but the Necron game remains largely the same- 12-24" power sector, target denial, and careful victim selection are all still of key importance, we just have more options on how we go about this.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Forgive me, I wasn't aware that Imhotek's storm was a first-turn only ability.

Zahndrekh and a ranged army do synergize nicely, but using Tank Hunters on a Doomsday Ark is probably a waste - I'd be more tempted to use it on direct-shot weapon (Tachyon Arrow, with +1 to pen and +1 on the damage chart...) to make better use of it. After all, you want your Blasts to be aiming at infantry, not at vehicles.

I'm not arguing that Imhotekh's bad with a long-ranged army though, we're discussing Obyron and why he's not optimal for any list because of his wierd wargear and critical lack of invulnerable save combined with I2.

Midnight


----------



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Touche then.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Midnight


----------



## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Going back to the topic

If you choose him, I wouldn't take Zandrekh cus it would make Obyron go to him if he is assaulted, Obyron shouldn't really be compared to to a veil-tek personally I think he is worth it. He has better armour than a tek and the cleaving counterblow helps a lot, not to mentions he has better T S WS.. well everything, and a warscythe.

I aggree with Iron Angel's original statement

Obyron should always be put in a squad of lychguard, they are the main close-combat choices and it would be stupid to take him with say some warriors. Most people would take the lychguard with shields, and the mantle would protect them from say a dreadnought which assaults them (and the warscythe may blow it up) and the invulnerable save would keep the power weapons off obyron and the lychguard can still save it.

The only time you really want to take Zandrekh is if it is a high point game cus Zandrekh can unlock a court and then (if you want to wate your points or have a lot of destroyers) you can have a destroyer lord.

Just a thought... scarabs and Obyron... teleport around the field, scarabs eat armour, obyron finishes them off. That is if beasts can have characters in their squad, I can't remember.

Also blasts and template can be deflected but it just becomes a straight line shooty weapon (e.g a template hits 3 lychguard, and are saved, 3 shots go to something within 6'').


----------



## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> I think it was TKE made the good point that rear AV10 isn't low because 99% of all vehicles in the game have it. I2 is bad because 99% of a single army in the game has it (he missed out, for example, Orks, but the point stands because Orks are often I3), but the majority of other armies have I3 or higher.


It was indeed I.

Orks weren't missed out, I didn't mention them as one of two things happens - they Assault, Furiously, or they get shot to shit because they have no armour.

Granted, in the odd circumstance where SoBs or IG charge the Orks, the I2 comes into play, but 90% of the time there is no functional loss for Orks being I2, whereas the much greater resilience of Necrons makes it a factor for them.

Imhotek's Lord of the Storm is NOT 1st turn only, it can potentially last the entire game, though unlikely.

I like Anrakyr, but he is the only Necron Special Character I would piss on if they were aflame. Well...ok, Orikan the Diviner, but that's not a competitive choice, it's a thematic one.


----------



## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Now on the current discussion (sorry to jump around guys I'm surprisingly not trying to annoy you). Orikan isn't great unless you can empower him and keep it that way, and Imhotek is too glorified, everyone takes him and personally I would find it hard to play with him. After finally reading the whole thread I sought of like Zandrekh a bit more, I never thought of some of those ideas. So do take Zandrekh if you want a court (odd if you don't) but if you don't then I would go for obyron any day. Szeras is just pointless, but he does look awesome with the 4 legs. And Anrakyr is just badass, A large squad of immortals of Phyrian eternals in a Nigh Scythe would be my plan, with Anrakyr being escorted by Lychguard and shields, so he can use mind of the machine and still be protected with an invulnerable, especially against guard (I got anhialated the other day by a guard army with 500pts of tanks in it).

Thats just my view, and there probably are a lot of better plans.


----------



## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I'd only use Anrakyr on a Barge - Lychguard are a terrible unit.


----------



## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

oh yeah forgot about them, that may be one of the few times I would use one. So yeah I would do that but with anrakyr on a barge rather than in a squad of lychguard. He would still have LOS from a barge wouldn't he?


----------



## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

He would have LoS, but the FAQ says he cannot use his ability from a Fire Point. Doesn't matter overmuch, he can Sweep, and Disembark if necessary.


----------



## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

does open topped count as a fire point? but yeah just disembark and sweep.


----------

