# Primarch personalities - who got along with who?



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

what do we know about the primarchs' personalities and their relationships with each other

Lion - proud, stubborn, tactical genius, aloof
Fulgrim - extremely arrogant, perfectionist, aloof 
Perturabo - ???
Jaghatai Khan - tactical genius, impulsive[?], honorable, has a savage side 
Leman Russ - stubborn, has a savage side, honorable, quick to anger quick to mirth, strong independent streak 
Rogal Dorn - intelligent, charismatic, even-tempered, understanding/wise
Night Haunter - conflicted personality, has a savage side, product of a twisted childhood and youth 
Sanguinius - noble, charismatic, intelligent, well-liked
Angron - psychotic, still had great loyalty to his fellow gladiators despite surgical modifications to his brain 
Roboute Guilliman - honorable, noble, just [or power-hungry schemer?], unparalleled organizational skills
Mortarion - ???
Magnus the Red - "intellectually inquisitive", thirst for knowledge
Horus - intelligent, charismatic, plagued by self-doubt in his own ability and resentment for being "abandoned" by the Emperor
Lorgar - has a fanatical desire to worship something
Vulkan - ???
Corax - tactical genius
Alpharius - tactical genius, ultimately everything he does is to further his own secret agenda, anti-authoritarian 

If I were to group them it would be like 

Khan (get along)
Russ

Night Haunter (get along) 
Mortarion

Sanguinius (get along)
Dorn
Horus

Lion (can't stand each other) 
Fulgrim

Corax (probably rivals) 
Alpharius 

maybe Dorn would get along with Guilliman, and Magnus and Lorgar would have something to bond over (both are very "interested" about the warp)


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## Gul Torgo (Mar 31, 2008)

Fulgrim was very close with Ferrus Manus.


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## Iron Within (Mar 15, 2008)

Yes, until his fall Fulgrim and Manus were very close. It is well known that Night Haunter was virtually a complete loner. I believe he had a relationship with Mortarion and Horus, and that was it. I agree with the thread starter that Guilliman and Dorn should get a long. Guillliman and Alpharius didn't get along, nor did Lion and Russ. Beyond Horus, I'm not sure Perturabo had any friends.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

yeah, how could I forget the relationships between Lion/Russ and Fulgrim/Ferrus

I don't think Lion and Russ's feud had anything to do with clash of personalities though, it seemed more of a situational thing, Lion just wanted to get the job done, but Russ wanted him to let him (Russ) kill that guy personally 

I don't quite understand the strong friendship between Fulgrim and Ferrus, Fulgrim was such an arrogant tosser, it's a wonder that anyone could get along with him save the Emperor

I guessed that Lion and Fulgrim would probably dislike each other because both have aloof, proud personalities, they'd probably be rivals


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

imo i believe all the primarchs that turned traitor were on very good terms with Horus, along with several notable ones that didnt fall - namely Sanguinius (could GW come up with a harder name to spell?) and Dorn - i believe since he was influential in having Loken(?) nominated to the mournival (?)

on the flip side the loyalist primarchs i find only had 0-4 good friends each

so in conclusion i find that the heretic primarch's were much more unified at the command level personally than the loyalists- which could speak for the colossal resistance to the Codex initially


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## Skye (Oct 22, 2008)

Russ didn't get along with The Lion too well, and now he HATES Magnus.
Horus and Sanguineous were very close, and obviously Horus was very close to those that turned.
Night Haunter HATED Dorn (almost beat him into a grease spot...)
Magnus was pretty close to Horus, but went heretic because he was basically backed into a corner (so no strong ties with Lorgar)
Lorgar is a prick....
Sanguineous and Russ got along pretty well.
Fulgrim and Manus were all good (of course, until that whole "heady choppy offy" bit...)
That's about all I remember.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Skye said:


> Lorgar is a prick....


:grin: 

Its known that Lorgar was very charasmatic and likeable. His fall to Chaos was one of the (if not the) most shocking developments of the Great Crusade, given his zealous devotion to the Emperor, it might be said that its more suprising that he rebelled than Horus rebelling.

We know that Lorgar was a spiritual Primarch and tended to look for the 'bigger-picture' so to speak, believing in the absolute 'rightness' of his fathers crusade.

He turned to Chaos because he believed that the Emperor was not deserving of his attention, let alone worship. Who are we to say he was wrong? Battle for the Abyss tells us that Lorgar's goal is to unite the warp and material realm thereby allowing humanity to truly reach its potential, we blindly assume that the Emperor's way is the best, that the Imperium is a force for good, what if were wrong?



MontytheMighty said:


> Corax - tactical genius


Im suprised you listed Corax as a tactical genius, when we have next to no information on him.

I mean yes we know he was skilled in sabotage and ambush tactics, but a tactical genius? really? 

In any way does the information we have on him mean he was more of a 'tactical genius' than any other primarch.



MontytheMighty said:


> Alpharius - tactical genius, ultimately everything he does is to further his own secret agenda, anti-authoritarian


You think that everything he did/does is to further his own secret agenda? Maybe his methods were secret, but at least initially his ultimate aims were known, and were essentially the same as every other Primarchs.

He is known to have been very loyal to the Emperor and follows him as any good son would. But we also know that Alpharius Omegon believed the Emperor's dream of 'Pax Imperialis' to be a Utopian Ideal and to be ultimately unattainable, yet that didn't stop him taking part in the Great Crusade and fighting for what his father wanted, which just further shows his loyalty.

Not necessarily Anti-Authoritarian aswell, just didn't like the idea of centralising authority. He thought it tactically best to disseminate command throughout his legion, thus enabling them to operate fully with or without his presence.


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## Skye (Oct 22, 2008)

I know, the thing about Lorgar was completely personal opinion.
I believe his motivation is that of someone who believes that god has turned his back on them. I just think he's a prick. It should be the Lorgar heresy :laugh: it's all his fault anyway.


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## sundrinker (Aug 7, 2009)

jaghati kahan was close friends with russ

i dont know about angorn but i'd like to think he was at odds with russ because in my opinion they are the flipside of eachother


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## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

Lorgar definately didn't like Guilliman. 

Lorgar must've been jealous as heck with Guilliman, him being the emperor's "favourite" legion.

And yes, most traitor legion primarchs were on good terms with Horus, as you see with Fulgrim, Mortarion and Angron.

Alpharius is a special case, seing as Alpharius had more inspiration from Horus then from the Emperor himself, due to being last. Kind of weird, seing as I always thought it was the baby brother that always got the attention.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> :grin:
> Im suprised you listed Corax as a tactical genius, when we have next to no information on him.
> I mean yes we know he was skilled in sabotage and ambush tactics, but a tactical genius? really?
> In any way does the information we have on him mean he was more of a 'tactical genius' than any other primarch.


all the primarchs were great tacticians and strategists compared to regular humans 
i was inferring from his legion's tactical bent, which is similar to alpha legion


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

Cruor99 said:


> Alpharius is a special case, seing as Alpharius had more inspiration from Horus then from the Emperor himself, due to being last. Kind of weird, seing as I always thought it was the baby brother that always got the attention.


im gonna have to disagree with you on that the youngest child gets the most attention - think about childhood / baby pics

1st child) ungodly large amounts of said pictures
2nd child) still lots of pictures but are mainly focused on major events (1st bday, 1st steps, etc)
3rd child) less pictures than the 2nd

by this situation the more 'children' one has the less attention they spend on the youngest, since they are not as unique or 'special' as the earlier ones


being the younger/est brother of my family i found that i was neglected more so than my older brother, in very minor things of course, but those minor things are usually the divides that are needed to change ones sense of truth


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## Skye (Oct 22, 2008)

Off topic: Cruorr, is that YOUR personal model?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> all the primarchs were great tacticians and strategists compared to regular humans
> i was inferring from his legion's tactical bent, which is similar to alpha legion


Of course they were yes, But if your listing Corax as a 'Tactical Genius' you may aswell list all the Primarchs as that (Which most if not all of them were, but the point is the tactically exceptional Primarchs like Alpharius, Horus and the Lion should be noted as such because they were beyond the 'normal' primarchs level of tacitcal genius).

Its also a longshot to compare the Raven Guard and Alpha Legions tactics as similar.

The Raven Guard often employ scouts to pinpoint enemy weak spots then follow up with lightening assault strikes by assault marines. They also are said to specialise in ambush and sabotage tactics, and tend to think of wildy assaulting enemy lines (Like the Blood Angels or Space Wolves) as idiotic, and they make little use of heavy vehicles compared to other Chapters.

The Alpha Legion on the other hand do not have a concrete set of tactics. They are adept in most forms of warfare as was taught by Alpharius Omegon. The Alpha Legion employed extensive amounts of Operatives during the Great Crusade (And Cultists/Operatives Post-Heresy), and its plausable that an Imperial Commander wouldn't even be aware of the Alpha Legions presence, the Legion of the Hydra acted extensively through these operatives gathering information and knowledge. They are experts in Infiltration, and Alpharius' extensive planning has examples such as Isstvan V (Where 3 entire Legions were crippled) which is heavily speculated to be a result of his planning and tactics.

Also If you look in the latest Chaos Space Marines codex, there is a fantastic example of the extent of the Alpha Legions infiltration tactics. A Cabal of the Alpha Legion set in place psychological triggers in the population of an Astartes recruiting world decades before they took any action. As the decades passed many of the worlds inhabitants effected were recruited into the Space Marine Chapter (Of which I forget the name) and this is when the Alpha Legion struck. They assaulted the world en masse, and the Chapter rallied to defend their world, this is when the Alpha Legions sent out the set Psychological signals which resulted in hundreds of the psychologically effected marines to turn on their brothers and decimate the Chapter from within, I believe the entire Chapter was destroyed. (Thats the skeleton of the story anyway, read it in the Chaos Codex though, its a fantastic one!)

Anyway my point was that the Alpha Legion and Raven Guards tactics are extremley different, and Corax cannot be labelled as any better than any other 'normal' Primarch tactically, especially those who are noted as tactical genius'; Alpharius, Horus and the Lion among them.



Fallen said:


> im gonna have to disagree with you on that the youngest child gets the most attention - think about childhood / baby pics
> 
> 1st child) ungodly large amounts of said pictures
> 2nd child) still lots of pictures but are mainly focused on major events (1st bday, 1st steps, etc)
> ...


Ok but this can hardly apply to the Primarchs...!



Cruor99 said:


> Lorgar must've been jealous as heck with Guilliman, him being the emperor's "favourite" legion.


Were the Ultramarines the Emperor's 'Favourite' legion? Im not aware that we have any information on this, also why would be the point in the Emperor having a 'favourite' legion? we do know however that Guilliman wasn't the Emperor's 'favourite' Primarch.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Ok but this can hardly apply to the Primarchs...!



how?

the Emperor spent YEARS teaching Horus the way of combat, and strategy.

whereas for Alpharius i believe that the Emperor was simply informed of his finding by Horus


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## sundrinker (Aug 7, 2009)

alpharius is probably the most loyal primarch not to the emporor but the human race he threw in his lot with some random aliens and lost. but all to save the galaxy 

i would say he did not get much attention and then tried to prove he was the loyist to the imperium.

omegon on the other hand.....


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Fallen said:


> how?
> 
> the Emperor spent YEARS teaching Horus the way of combat, and strategy.
> 
> whereas for Alpharius i believe that the Emperor was simply informed of his finding by Horus


You cannot apply human affections to their real children in the sense of number of Photographs to the relationship between the Emperor and the Primarchs, you simply can't.

Firstly the Emperor was arguably not psychologically human (see Signiture), secondly the Primarchs were not normal children.

When they were discovered they were already fully developed and had achieved things that were beyond almost all 'normal' humans - built interstellar empires, overthrown tyrants etc. We also don't know the psychology of the Primarchs, only that it was aloof to normal humans.

Also when you say 'oldest' you mean 'discovered first' right? Because it is implied that the Lion was actually created first, and therefore chronologically oldest. But Horus was discovered first.

The Reason that Alpharius wasn't treated with the same pomp, ceremony, and 'affection' that the earlier discovered Primarchs were is simply stated as because the Emperor was extremley busy and the Great Crusade was in full swing meaning that not only was there no point but there was also no time. 

Also look at the example of other Primarchs, Perturabo as an example was one of the first Primarchs found (Speculated to have been within the first 5) But did not share very good relations with the Emperor.



sundrinker said:


> alpharius is probably the most loyal primarch not to the emporor but the human race he threw in his lot with some random aliens and lost. but all to save the galaxy


That is assuming what is only implied in 'Legion' is actually what happened. Its not clear if Alpharius Omegon actually did as the Cabal wanted him to.

Always remember what Omegon notes on Page 399:

'If we are to prevail in this task ahead of us,' said Omegon, 'we must be secure and committed. We can not let our hand been seen too early, or have our undertaking betrayed. *Secrecy is, as always, our most potent weapon.*'

No where throughout the book does it state that Alpharius gives in to the demands of the Cabal.

Given Alpharius' comments to the Cabal and his fellow Astartes, its also plausable to suggest that he is actually one of the most loyal Primarchs to the Emperor. Also how is the most loyal Primarch to the Human Race? If he did indeed do as the Cabal wished then he condemned the entire species of mankind, hardly loyalty!



sundrinker said:


> omegon on the other hand.....


?


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> You cannot apply human affections to their real children in the sense of number of Photographs to the relationship between the Emperor and the Primarchs, you simply can't.
> 
> Firstly the Emperor was arguably not psychologically human (see Signiture), secondly the Primarchs were not normal children.
> 
> ...


No not loyalty neccesity.


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## sundrinker (Aug 7, 2009)

loyal to the human race saving them from thousands of years of torture and mutation.


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## Iron Within (Mar 15, 2008)

Skye said:


> Night Haunter HATED Dorn (almost beat him into a grease spot...)


Yeah I wish Night Haunter ripped that prick's throat out. I forgot to mention that Alpharius and Guilliman did not get along.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

sundrinker said:


> loyal to the human race saving them from thousands of years of torture and mutation.


I still wouldn't regard that as Loyalty.

Thats the same as saying that someone can only be loyal to the human race if they wish to exterminate the entire species, because as long as humanity exists so will inequality, pain, suffering, torture etc.


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## Bloody Mary (Nov 6, 2009)

Night Haunter and Fulgrim had a fairly close relationship, since Fulgrim was the one who taught primarching to Night Haunter. It probably took a turn for the worse after Night Haunter nearly bit off Dorn's face (which was partially Fulgrim's fault.)

Anyway, I was under the impression that Fulgrim was pretty likeable despite his pride. Kinda like Horus.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

well i know that Perturabo was said to have had a cold calculating sort of personality, he was known as one of the "tactical geniuses" among the primarchs and was always somewhat distant and quiet. and when i say tactical genius i mean it, like up there with Horus


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## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

Skye said:


> Off topic: Cruorr, is that YOUR personal model?


It's surprising what photoshop can do to a model!  But no, it's sadly not mine. It's someone I met at a tournament's that sent it to me. So I decided it was awesome enough to make stylized. Although I do aim to paint up one Chaos termi lord like that. 



BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> well i know that Perturabo was said to have had a cold calculating sort of personality, he was known as one of the "tactical geniuses" among the primarchs and was always somewhat distant and quiet. and when i say tactical genius i mean it, like up there with Horus


I wouldn't say Perturabo as that much of a 'tactical genius' on par with The Lion or Blessed Horus. Keep in mind that Perturabo is a siege specialist alongside Dorn, where Perturabo is moreso on the attacking part of a siege whereas Dorn is defensive. If Perturabo would be engaged on a unsuited battlefield for his legion, I would think he'd have a tougher time than the previously mentioned 2 primarchs. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Were the Ultramarines the Emperor's 'Favourite' legion? Im not aware that we have any information on this, also why would be the point in the Emperor having a 'favourite' legion? we do know however that Guilliman wasn't the Emperor's 'favourite' Primarch.


Most Word Bearer literature hold the Ultramarines as 'The Great Enemy' because the big-E himself held them in much higher regards, akin to the personal legion of the Emperor. While Horus may have been the favorite primarch, Big-E held the Ultramarines in high regard. 

This, of course, triggered the jealousy card in the Word Bearers. They being so devout and worshiping The Emperor with all their might, and never getting any acceptance because of it.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Im Surprise no one mention Angron or Mortarion. Mortarion only had friends in Horus and Night Haunter. I think Night Haunters arrest went badly for Martarion and he joined Horus side. He was Upset at the Big E for stealing his victory over his foster daddy on his death world. Angron had no friends really but hated the Emperor for what he did to him. Mortarion and Angron need their own books for the HH novels.


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## Bloodthrstybloodthrstr (Nov 9, 2009)

fulgrim got on with horus

he was 1 of the few (sanguinius, dorn, mortarion n lorgar were the others) who accepted horus as the warmaster (see the bit in sons of horus were fulgrim visits horus)


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Of course they were yes, But if your listing Corax as a 'Tactical Genius' you may aswell list all the Primarchs as that (Which most if not all of them were, but the point is the tactically exceptional Primarchs like Alpharius, Horus and the Lion should be noted as such because they were beyond the 'normal' primarchs level of tacitcal genius).


yes, I'm comparing only within the primarch group, that was what I was trying to say
to me, Corax comes across as one of the primarchs above normal primarch level in that regard, I can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt but I doubt you can disprove it, in other words it's just my own non-absurd opinion


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## Bloody Mary (Nov 6, 2009)

Speaking of Corax, he didn't get along with Horus--they almost came to blows once. As far as I can remember, one of Corax's problems with Horus, was that Horus talked to much.


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

Mortarion favored the strong and was attached to horus (he only really followed chaos because horus did) because he saw him as the strongest. Perturabo was a highly intelligent individual but i believe resented the fact that he and his legion got type caste into being siege specialists since he was really a a good strategist all around not just at sieges. as i recall Perturabo hated Rogal Dorn because dorn would bost that not even Perturabo could penetrate his defenses of the imperial palace.


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## Bloody Mary (Nov 6, 2009)

ironhammer said:


> Mortarion favored the strong and was attached to horus (he only really followed chaos because horus did) because he saw him as the strongest. Perturabo was a highly intelligent individual but i believe resented the fact that he and his legion got type caste into being siege specialists since he was really a a good strategist all around not just at sieges. as i recall Perturabo hated Rogal Dorn because dorn would bost that not even Perturabo could penetrate his defenses of the imperial palace.


Actually, Perturabo *asked* Rogal Dorn, who he thought would win and Rogal Dorn being his honest, tactless self said he'd win.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ironhammer said:


> Mortarion favored the strong and was attached to horus (he only really followed chaos because horus did) because he saw him as the strongest.


Thats a bit of an over-simplification. Mortarion is probably one of the most puzzling Traitor Primarchs in the context of why they rebelled. But generally the reasons are usually portrayed as:

1) Typhon corrupting/persuading him.
2a) His hatred of Tyrants, and his possible belief that the Emperor was becoming a Tyrant.
And/Or
2b) Felt a jealous Hatred towards the Emperor, as it was the Emperor rather than he that slew the Tyrant of Barbarus.
3) His friendship with Horus was used as a leverage.
4) His admiration for the mighty, Horus promised him a future where the mighty ruled (similar to the reason you gave).

There the ones I can think of currently anyway.



ironhammer said:


> Perturabo was a highly intelligent individual but i believe resented the fact that he and his legion got type caste into being siege specialists since he was really a a good strategist all around not just at sieges. as i recall Perturabo hated Rogal Dorn because dorn would bost that not even Perturabo could penetrate his defenses of the imperial palace.


Not sure about that. Perturabo has always been noted as a siege specialist, not as a general all-round tactician. 

His legion was slowly being splintered as they were constantly being used to garrison semi-compliant worlds. The Iron Warriors were thrown into the most violent, hard and vicious wars throughout the Great Crusade and recieved next to no recognition for their efforts. Perturabo is said to have privatley resented both the splitting of his legion and his legions use in the most 'sticky' situations even though he never publically complained against it.

Rogal Dorn and his Imperial Fists were also noted as Siege-Specialists thus began a rivalry between the two legions. Its pretty clear cut that the Emperor favoured Dorn and his legion over Perturabo and the Iron Warriors, which resulted in Perturabo's jealously slowly eating away at him. When Dorn was re-called from the Crusade to fortify the Imperial Palace it acted as the 'final straw' and Perturabo was distraught. This coupled with Horus gifting him Forgebreaker (which was possibley corrupted), and the massacre of Olympia pushed him over the edge.


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

to child-of-the-emperor, i purposefully oversimplified mortarion's motives a little because i felt the person hosting the thread wanted a simple answer. but what you said is true about mortarion his motives are rather complicated, which only helps to make his current state that much more of a tragic irony, and why i am so fascinated by his character.

I honestly don't know that much about Perturabo, i heard from a friend who is big on chaos about Perturabo's resentment toward is position as a siege specialist. honestly as i have read, Perturabo is something of a mystery, imperial records at that time only glance over him, (i don't know what he does in the horus heresy series forgive me) so your information on him would be and is helpful.


***Edit***

this also reminds me of a thread i posted earlier speculating on if horus was the defender of the imperium and the emporer wanted to drag it into chaos how would that re-draw the battle lines and/or change the outcome http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=43621, nobody got it at the time and just dismissed it.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Sanguinus was the most charismatic and popular. I cannot think of any of the primarchs who had a problem with him before the heresy.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

it was actually at a banquet that some of the primarchs attended that this question about who would win between dorn and perturabo and it was fulgrim who had asked the question to dorn who had simply said he did not know. yes dorn was a prick but i dont believe him to be that cocky to haul off and say yes, if i remember correctly he said it would be fairly even. this had angered perturabo because he believed he could break any defenses of any planet, i mean shit he and his legion had in every one of their campaigns. and of course once the traitors assaulted terra he and his legion did tear down the defenses :victory:

as for him only specializing in only siege warfare i've read in a few places that he was the tactical mind behind a campaign that the khan and russ were in but they got all the credit for the victory. not only that but that he was also very very very good with technology, he had an 'affinity' for it. i dont want to bring up what lexicanum says bcuz it isnt very reliable. but then again like most traitor primarchs we know next to nothing really concrete on him so we must wait for Black Library to make a Horus Heresy book on the Iron Warriors *sigh*


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## Fungus (Jul 17, 2009)

Im pretty sure that Vulkan got along with everyone, as back on nocturne he was the guy who preached love & compassion for all others under the emperor and so got along well with others. he got along pretty well with perturebo moreso than others if i remember well enough, & i reckon that if it came down to fighting against traitor primarchs he wstill try to turn them back to the emperor.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

ironhammer said:


> Mortarion favored the strong and was attached to horus (he only really followed chaos because horus did) because he saw him as the strongest. Perturabo was a highly intelligent individual but i believe resented the fact that he and his legion got type caste into being siege specialists since he was really a a good strategist all around not just at sieges. as i recall Perturabo hated Rogal Dorn because dorn would bost that not even Perturabo could penetrate his defenses of the imperial palace.


I don't know where you heard that... The Imperial defences of terra were obliterated by none other than the Iron Warriors. Not only that but guess who set up those defences? The Emperor pretty much lost that battle... really, if Horus didn't let the Emperor in to his ship to kill him the Iron Warriors would have cleansed that palace to dust.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Not sure about that. Perturabo has always been noted as a siege specialist, not as a general all-round tactician.
> 
> His legion was slowly being splintered as they were constantly being used to garrison semi-compliant worlds. The Iron Warriors were thrown into the most violent, hard and vicious wars throughout the Great Crusade and recieved next to no recognition for their efforts. Perturabo is said to have privatley resented both the splitting of his legion and his legions use in the most 'sticky' situations even though he never publically complained against it.
> 
> Rogal Dorn and his Imperial Fists were also noted as Siege-Specialists thus began a rivalry between the two legions. Its pretty clear cut that the Emperor favoured Dorn and his legion over Perturabo and the Iron Warriors, which resulted in Perturabo's jealously slowly eating away at him. When Dorn was re-called from the Crusade to fortify the Imperial Palace it acted as the 'final straw' and Perturabo was distraught. This coupled with Horus gifting him Forgebreaker (which was possibley corrupted), and the massacre of Olympia pushed him over the edge.


Actually I agree with the last person who said Perturabo was a gunius. Which he really was. He is arguably one of the most genius Primarchs though the most unselfish however. Your probably wondering ???? But Perturabo basically devastated his Legion more than any for the best of the empyream and the crusade. You can see his genius in the Legion after the heresy and in actual 40k text. He tricked the Lion in giving him the siege engines to tear down the walls of terra for crying out loud. His legion is perhaps the most powerful space marine legion in tact. Though obviously chaos it has the most geneseed availabe, and the best equipment which is mutated and stuff.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> I don't know where you heard that... The Imperial defences of terra were obliterated by none other than the Iron Warriors. Not only that but guess who set up those defences? The Emperor pretty much lost that battle... really, if Horus didn't let the Emperor in to his ship to kill him the Iron Warriors would have cleansed that palace to dust.


If of course the Dark Angels/Space Wolves/Ultramarines didn't reach Terra in time.



ckcrawford said:


> Actually I agree with the last person who said Perturabo was a gunius. Which he really was. He is arguably one of the most genius Primarchs though the most unselfish however.


Well all the Primarchs were 'geniuses' in their own right. He was not selfless by obeying orders... which is what splitting his legion was, merely obeying orders.



ckcrawford said:


> But Perturabo basically devastated his Legion more than any for the best of the empyream and the crusade.


again, it wasn't him. He was ordered to do so.



ckcrawford said:


> He tricked the Lion in giving him the siege engines to tear down the walls of terra for crying out loud.


Thats not a major accomplishment. Anyone could have played on the Lion's arrogance and jealousy, to result in such a deal; Perturabo would support the Lion's claim on the title of Warmaster and Perturabo would get some super-weapons for his legion.


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## jams (Sep 19, 2009)

vulkan and manus were probably good mates due to sharing the whole articifier thing. infact, in the HH book with manus in, doesn't it say something about him getting given a weapon of some sort that was hand made by vulkan?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Other way round, Manus makes Vulkan a unique bolter but Vulkan feels ucomfortable with it, as Ferrus says to Fulgrim (paraphrasing here) 'Vulkan doesn't like anything that hasn't felt the touch of a hammer or the heat of a forge'.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

If you were referring to the Dark Angels watching the fight and determining the victor of the Heresy and the Ultra Marines obliterated chapter than maybe the space wolf fleet would have pricked the invasion... assuming they weren't still chasing the the thousand sons. 
Plus I don't think you really know much about the primarchs. Though the primarchs are all intelligent in their own respect there are few that have been remarked as genius, Guilleman, Horus, The Lion, and Perturabo have been the few that stories have actually taken the time and detail in demonstrating them from the rest. Plus tricking a primarch is a tricky thing, especially a primarch like The Lion. 
The Ultra Marines and the Iron Warriors are the only "space marine including chaos" that have maintained a strong ferm on their forces. Though the Ultra Marines have taken advantage of splitting their legion into easier "chapters" the Iron Warriors have the biggest space marine company. "Black Legion" is nothing of its former self having been destroyed pretty much completley by every legion or chapter until it was rebuilt to something different. Some could argue that even the word bearers have a legion as big enough but thats a bit pushen it.
Secondly, how could you possibly even say that a primarch simply just recieves and obey orders? Thats complete bullshit. Name one other legion that just does what they are told to do? Every legion does what it wants for the most part. I guess if perturabo really wanted he could just do what every other legion does and just order and let the imperial guard do a piss poor job. I only say that because unlike any other primarch that turned to chaos, Perturabo seems to stick out. He seems more ashamed as the other primarchs have devoted themselves entirely to chaos, the Iron Warriors Legion has its own agenda.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> If you were referring to the Dark Angels watching the fight and determining the victor of the Heresy and the Ultra Marines obliterated chapter than maybe the space wolf fleet would have pricked the invasion... assuming they weren't still chasing the the thousand sons.


What obliterated Chapter?



ckcrawford said:


> Plus I don't think you really know much about the primarchs. Though the primarchs are all intelligent in their own respect there are few that have been remarked as genius, Guilleman, Horus, The Lion, and Perturabo have been the few that stories have actually taken the time and detail in demonstrating them from the rest. Plus tricking a primarch is a tricky thing, especially a primarch like The Lion.
> The Ultra Marines and the Iron Warriors are the only "space marine including chaos" that have maintained a strong ferm on their forces. Though the Ultra Marines have taken advantage of splitting their legion into easier "chapters" the Iron Warriors have the biggest space marine company. "Black Legion" is nothing of its former self having been destroyed pretty much completley by every legion or chapter until it was rebuilt to something different. Some could argue that even the word bearers have a legion as big enough but thats a bit pushen it.


Not sure what _'The Ultra Marines and the Iron Warriors are the only "space marine including chaos" that have maintained a strong ferm on their forces'_ means exactly...
Where have you gotten the idea that the Iron Warriors are the largest or most organised Legion? Organisation-wise the Word Bearers are the most centralised Legion and I'd hazard a guess that the Black Legion is numericaly the largest in the 41st millenium (what with them gaining recruits from other Legions and renegade Chapters as well as the usual routes).



ckcrawford said:


> Secondly, how could you possibly even say that a primarch simply just recieves and obey orders? Thats complete bullshit. Name one other legion that just does what they are told to do? Every legion does what it wants for the most part. I guess if perturabo really wanted he could just do what every other legion does and just order and let the imperial guard do a piss poor job. I only say that because unlike any other primarch that turned to chaos, Perturabo seems to stick out. He seems more ashamed as the other primarchs have devoted themselves entirely to chaos, the Iron Warriors Legion has its own agenda.


So unlike *every *Legion which followed orders (until the Heresy obviously) you some how think that Perturabo's following of orders was unique? NAme one other Legion? Okay a pretty big one would be the Imperial Fists who were ordered back to Terra when they would have preferred to continue their part in the Great Crusade, or how about the Ultramarine who followed Horus' orders to assemble at Calth etc
So Perturabo hasn't devoted himself to Chaos? That's strange since he was made a Daemon Prince/Primarch, devoting oneself would seem to be requisite for such an 'honour'...

Seriously learn the background material before ranting about it.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Plus I don't think you really know much about the primarchs. Though the primarchs are all intelligent in their own respect there are few that have been remarked as genius, Guilleman, Horus, The Lion, and Perturabo have been the few that stories have actually taken the time and detail in demonstrating them from the rest.


Most if not all the Primarchs have been refered to as 'geniuses' or something similar. As they all were.



ckcrawford said:


> Plus tricking a primarch is a tricky thing, especially a primarch like The Lion.


Not in that particular circumstance. Perturabo knew the Lion was arrogant, and he knew that the Lion craved the title of Warmaster for himself. It wouldn't and didn't take much for Perturabo to secure the Super-Weapons. He merely played along with the Lion for the most part.



ckcrawford said:


> Secondly, how could you possibly even say that a primarch simply just recieves and obey orders? Thats complete bullshit.


I didn't say that.

I said that the slow splintering of Perturabo's legion was done because he was ordered to do so, by the Emperor and then presumed continued by Horus when he was appointed Warmaster.

But aside from that the Primarchs did obey orders and didn't just go around doing what they wanted to. The War Council initially made the executive decisions of the Imperium during the Crusade era and then the Council of Terra following Ullanor. Although the Primarchs largely despised the later, they still obeyed orders.

Eg. As the Baron above said, the Imperial Fists returning to Terra is a strong example of such an order. Guilliman mustering his legion at Calth. Sanguinius assaulting Signus Prime. Leman Russ and the Burning of Prospero. The list goes on, the Primarchs did obey orders.



ckcrawford said:


> He seems more ashamed as the other primarchs have devoted themselves entirely to chaos, the Iron Warriors Legion has its own agenda.


Alongside Alpharius Omegon and Night Haunter (and his successors in M41) of course. (Both of which have their 'own agendas'.)

& actually arguably even Abaddon.



Baron Spikey said:


> Seriously learn the background material before ranting about it.


Couldn't agree more


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## Kale Hellas (Aug 26, 2009)

the main reason perturabo became a daemon prince was because he caused the deaths of over 400 imperial fists, he kills because he wants to not because chaos tells him to.
i also read somewhere that if iron warriors grow mutated limbs they will cut them off and replace it with a bionic limb


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Kale Hellas said:


> the main reason perturabo became a daemon prince was because he caused the deaths of over 400 imperial fists, he kills because he wants to not because chaos tells him to.
> i also read somewhere that if iron warriors grow mutated limbs they will cut them off and replace it with a bionic limb


And what is your point? 

As far as we know the Iron Cage Incident wasn't orchestrated by the Chaos Gods, but following the massacre of the Imperial Fists, Perturabo was rewarded by Chaos - by being elevated to Daemonhood.

It doesnt matter if the Chaos Gods told him to set the trap for the Imperial Fists or not, or whether he follows his own agenda and is only loosely 'attached' to the Chaos gods, the fact is that he is now a Daemon Prince of Chaos, he is devoted to Chaos (not necessarily the gods) and is a daemon of Chaos.


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