# Show me yours and I'll show you mine...



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

There was an interesting situation (at least for me) in my LGS yesterday.

I was discussing 8th edition stuff with a few guys and at one point we came to the new items that can cause untold damage in one way or the other. I said that they can be circumvented to some extent if you single out the character that carries it, but then one of the guys said that in Fantasy you don't have to show your list to your opponent. He knew that in 40K you have to but he said that even in tournaments theres no rule that says you have to show your list to your opponent. I was like "WTF is this shit" and went through the rulebook in search for a line that would prove the guy otherwise. Unfortunately, I found no such sentence. 

So I turn to you, fellow heretics: is there really no way that I could legally force my opponent to show his list to me? And what do you think about this issue in general? Its not just that I'm used to 40K but I think that trying to get an edge over your opponent by not giving him information about your army is the lowest and most disgusting thing I've heard of so far (yes, even worse then 8th ed Teclis ). Of course I could simply refuse to play against someone with this attitude, but if tournaments work the same way then I must prepare for these situations and adapt.


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## Putch. (Jul 13, 2010)

In tournaments, at least over here, you dont need to show your list, UNTIL you whip out your awesome weapon of magical killy. Just like if I field my WoC and his level 4 whips out the lore of metal, he needs to show me that it is actally metal he has on his list.


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## Ancient Tiel' a fier (May 5, 2008)

Lists have always been kept secret in events ive been too, it adds flavour to the game by allowing cunning and guile. The only thing you can do is ask where an effect comes from when its revealed, ie the opponants unit is magic resistance 2 so you ask 'why' and he says 'it has the unit standard of MR2' or 'this character is MR2'; then all you have to do is try and pop they irritating ones.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

There are plenty of items that can reveal things hidden in units and magic items if your worried but from what I've seen most characters only really have 1 or 2 effective combo's and trawling the internet should cover most of the cut and paste armies you'll fight in tournies. 
I don't really understand why you see not showing whats in your list as a bad thing most units are wysiwyg and there are no characters or items that really offer that much of a surprise except for a few gobbo dirty tricks maybe. 
In the heat of a real battle it's unlikely that a hero's magic sword would instantly be recognisable to every one in it's opposing army it would be just another character with a scary looking sword.


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## mahavira (Jan 10, 2010)

Empire Arcane Item: Crystal Ball (15 points): the enemy must always reveal all the 'secrets; involving all units that are withhin 24" of the Wizard at any time. This includes which magic items are in the unit and who is carrying them, the presence of disguised, hidden or otherwise 'invisible' models and everything else that the player is not normally obliged to disclose to his opponent.

Given that the item appeared in the 7E codex, I would speculate this is not a new thing. We have been showing each other our lists primarily because we don't have the correct models for all our units yet and it's helpful to remember what those models are.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

neilbatte said:


> In the heat of a real battle it's unlikely that a hero's magic sword would instantly be recognisable to every one in it's opposing army it would be just another character with a scary looking sword.


Superb point.

I have always played without swapping lists unless the rules of an event specifically requested it; it always seemed better that way.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Dave T Hobbit said:


> Superb point.
> 
> I have always played without swapping lists unless the rules of an event specifically requested it; it always seemed better that way.


Then why are we playing with equal point limits? Its not realistic at all.  I might be overreacting this - perhaps I've been playing too much DotA recently with my flatmate against five relentlessly cheating AIs. 

Now that it looks like a global standard, how do you guys deal with this? Do you single out suspicious characters or just let things happen?


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I also don't have a problem with it. I try to match the attitude that my opponent has every time I play. For example someone I know says out loud "20 Chaos Warriors with Mark of Nurgle, Shields, Halberds and full command with banner of frenzy" when he plonks the unit down, and outlines any magic items if his opponent doesn't know what they do. As a simple courtesy I do the same thing when I play against him. On the other hand I know people who deploy and fight in absolute silence, and I return the favour.

I'd be happy to do exactly the same thing in 40k too, except apparantly 40kers need to be told by the rulebook to be nice to each other. I don't see how you can tell from the outside what a Land Raider is carrying, but there we go.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

> Then why are we playing with equal point limits? Its not realistic at all.


and thats why the game is called fantasy.
Sethis has the right of it. I am lucky in that within my usual gaming groups we let each other know before hand what sort of game we want before we start.
If someone really wanted to see my list before we started depending o how they asked I'd probably show them but as a rule I normally just tell them what type of unit I'm putting down and if like my hand gunners or ogres it's not totally wysiwyg (I always model full command but don't usually take them in some units) I'll tell them what is different to what they can see and this usually works and I'll let them know what level wizard I'm putting down and which model is my general and if they want to know more they can buy a crysal ball it's what it's there for.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

If Im playing an army I dont really know then I occasionally ask to play open lists (although more often then not I simply ask about units/SC I haven't seen before and carry on). If playing a friendly game I'll often play open because I'll be helping someone with their list or at least discussing it... and if ever asked what's in my army I will say (not if I was in a tourny... but thats a different thing entirely).

If you really care about hidden people/items or just want to know then most armies have something that allows them to spy. The empir have crystal ball, my ogres have the rock eye and I know lizzies have something too... although I've only ever once used the rock eye.

EDIT- of course, if Im ever using a character that isnt WYSIWYG in any main way I'll tell my opponent everything he is carrying: if Im pretending a small club is a 2 handed great weapon then I might as well say that its actually the tenderiser (magical) as Im at it.


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Khorothis said:


> Now that it looks like a global standard, how do you guys deal with this? Do you single out suspicious characters or just let things happen?


Whilst I would agree with what the others have said regarding how it is normal to not see lists, generally most people will let you know when starting a game if they are playing a competitive list or just want a friendly. This goes two ways of course, it stops one or both having a nasty surprise and it means you can get an idea if they are likely to bring hard lists with all the nasty shit possible, or not. If it is a friendly game you can always ask if they mind playing open lists, as you are still learning, etc.

Once you have played a few games and learnt a bit about other people's armies you will start to learn what combos to keep an eye out for when playing certain armies and builds. You can generally work out roughly what will be brought to the table once you get to know the armies you are facing.


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## Cheese meister (Jun 5, 2010)

i simply have two lists 1 with the magic items on (mine) and 1 with them off and in there place the words and magic gubbins (opponents) just so they can see my units composition and that i am within the points limit this is how i have always played as it has a real effect on the game because if you knew a character had a uber sword of kill you dead then you would not accept a challenge and the same goes for your opponent i will happily say yeah he has got a magic weapon if i am asked but i don't go out my way to tell them where everything is


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## Durzod (Nov 24, 2009)

I always have played with closed lists. I see no way I should be able to know WHICH magic banner a unit is carrying, or which unit has a concealed assassin in it and what type of poison is on its weapons, nor should my opponent. There are magic items that so that, so why should this information be given out for free?
That being said, if someone wants to know what special abilities./rules apply to a unit I have no problems answering that. After all this is common knowledge (so what if he hasn't bought my army book, it's all there in black and white). 
My standard in tournaments is to bring extra copies of my army list and any background write up I may have. After the game I give a copy to my opponent, so he can see all the things he may have missed, or see a different slant (if we happen to have played the same army). Of course if there is any dispute over what's in my army I'll gladly show my opponent the entry for that unit (folding the list so just that unit is visible).


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

I tend to go middle of the road. While I am playing a race or army that I am not that familiar with I ask so I learn about things. I have yet to face Lizardmen since about 1992? I have little idea what they can and cannot do anymore. I do know from my own base knowledge that killing the Slann Mage would probably be a priority for me however.

That said, I dont mind people playing closed lists. But I always after a tournament or even a friendly game ASK to see the list and provide a copy of mine. If during a game somebody rolls a dice for something, I ask what it is for, and ask what they rolling for. Ie; I cast fireball.... ok cool... I am rolling now to see if my ward save protects me. Thats the standard I expect. I dont need to know the item. However their is a down side. Plenty of times I have played and then learnt that somebody has done something that a unit or item cannot do..... That frustrates me, and most of the time the person who did it, is not doing it deliberately. For the moment a lot of it is... oh ok didnt realise I had 2 arcane items on that single person etc. But when it gets to items like...

Ring of Hotek

Null Talisman 

as examples from the DE book, its always nice to be very clear about an item and its expectations.

ROH is a classic for everyone either thinking they know what it does, or how they interpret it, Null Talismans are the same with the ammount they can stack on top of each other.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

I like playing with closed lists if I know my opponent well enough to know that cheating isn't a part of their character, like the 12/15 guys in my regular group. Not knowing what they have ahead of time heightens the tension and means you get thrown a curve ball sometimes so may need to respond to it differently.

Pick-up games I'd expect to show the list, makes it easier on everyone.

I must get my Dwarfs up to 8th Ed speed..haven't played a game yet.


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## Wiccus (Jun 2, 2008)

I never play with closed lists. I have never played with closed lists and nobody I have ever played in my like 9 years of playing this game has ever played with a closed list. Also the major tournaments in the area are all open list from what I understand. I know its not in the book to tell your opponent what you have but it seems low and dirty to me. I am actually quite surprised that there are so many people that play closed list games.


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## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

when i play games i never show my list as thats a part of the fun wondering what the characters are tooled with. i my oponent asks to look at my list I tell them to FUCK OFF politely. This goes for 40k as well


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## VeronaKid (Jan 7, 2010)

I was lucky enough to play in a really well-run campaign for WHFB a few years ago. I thought that the organizers had a really good idea during the campaign. Before each game, you would basically make an index card for each unit in your army that detailed what the unit was, what items it had, what special abilities you had purchased for them, etc. Once one of the items/abilities came into question, you would simply show the index card for that unit to your opponent- that way, you didn't have to reveal your entire list to them, which maintained the "surprise" element, but at the same time, it maintained honesty with your list. A little more bookkeeping before the game, but not very much.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Closed lists are fine as long as your Army is WYSIWYG , if not and someone is being really dicky about it then i'm happy to have them remove al their non-WYSIWYG units from the game as casualties. 

Aramoro


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Wiccus said:


> I never play with closed lists. I have never played with closed lists and nobody I have ever played in my like 9 years of playing this game has ever played with a closed list. Also the major tournaments in the area are all open list from what I understand. I know its not in the book to tell your opponent what you have but it seems low and dirty to me. I am actually quite surprised that there are so many people that play closed list games.


Tournies are split in whichg they use: closed is the standard for the game but its easier for players to run the game if they play open lists (and results in less "hang on, that warbanner you've been using isn't on your list" moments at teh end of the game).

I have to say that I prefer a friendly mix of open/closed. I dont want to know what every item of every enemy is, but I like knowing roughly if an enemy is tooled up or not and I like to know about magical standards... but then I would expect my army to be able to recognise a special enemy standard: its not like its a small broach that is hiding beneath a layer of armour.


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## Durzod (Nov 24, 2009)

My main problem with open list games is that there are quite a few magic items that reveal hidden aspects of an opponent's army. They're there for a reason. But who in their right mind is going to spend points on them (instead of that nifty magic sword) when their effect is granted for free?


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## Durzod (Nov 24, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> I have to say that I prefer a friendly mix of open/closed. I dont want to know what every item of every enemy is, but I like knowing roughly if an enemy is tooled up or not and I like to know about magical standards... but then I would expect my army to be able to recognise a special enemy standard: its not like its a small broach that is hiding beneath a layer of armour.


Do you want to know WHICH magic standard, or just that it's a magic standard?


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## crocodilesoldier (Aug 29, 2008)

Oooh good topic.
This is how my group of friends play:
We keep the list clutched in our sweaty hand.

We put a unit down then say "it's got full command or just a champ ect, shields, light armour, blah, blah, blah" but we will NEVER say that the champ has a magical whatnot. Same with when you place a hero, "A level 4 Arch Mage" you do not have to say he's got a ring of blah, or "a noble with dragon armour sword and shield" you do not have to say that the sheild or sword is magical, or that he has a sneaky amulet of light ect....

If someone shoots at my dragon princes with a fireball then I will point out before they roll that they are immune to fire(because this is common knowledge), but if they shoot at a unit with a magical wahtnot of immune to fire then we let them shoot the fireball then tell them. 

This is the game of WFB, and I beleive this is how it should be done, or there would be no point of half the magical items and spells. These things are a surprise and should be. You do not want the other player to know you have a dispell scroll and a feedback scroll, he should find out the hard / fun way.

As both players should play this way then nobody has an addvantage over each other.

There is a level of trust here and if people find out that somone has been cheating they soon won't have many friends to play with.

Part of the fun is to keep the other player guessing, making him think "where is that magical sword of killing blow?" when this game you didn't bring it:wink:
Then after game is finished and pizza eaten do we show lists if anybody really cares.
Do you not think this is a fun way to play?


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## Zaden (Oct 21, 2008)

Playing with closed lists makes sense to me. Start a game not knowing anything except what can be seen, such as unit size, full command, etc. When non-visual stuff is used, such as spells and magic items, some of the list should be revealed. While this is a fantasy game, it is still based on general pitched battle situations, in which one opponent would not know much of anything anout another opponent until they get up close and personal. As said before, as long as both players are trustworthy and both playing a closed list, all is fair.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

When you've been playing for a while especially if you play against the same players often you pretty much know what to expect.
Chances are any chaos hero/ lord will either be a combat monster or a super caster.
Dwarf lords will generally be an immovable rock, Slann will be casters supreme,
Every armies character has a role to fill and when you know what the character does any magical items are just candy and rarely do anything unexpected unless it's a goblin and even then if theres a hero on a wolf charging at your best unit you can pretty much guess that he's got the amulet of the handgrenade and will explode on contact.

The best thing about closed lists is trying to surprise your opponent by making something that works but also is unexpected.
I agree with most that there's no way that most soldiers would be able to tell one glowing sword from another especially during the heat of battle although obviously if the swords on fire then it would be a fairly safe bet.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Durzod said:


> Do you want to know WHICH magic standard, or just that it's a magic standard?


Yeah, I like to know which... but then Im an ogre player- all my standards have very clear descriptions of what they look like, so banner type is pretty much a matter of WYSIWYG for me: I'll tell you which banner I have where simply because its either not WYSIWYG or you should be able to recognise it anyway (and if you cant then I'll not punish you for lack of ogre knowledge).
This view has pretty much gone on to colour my view of all the other races.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

To me it comes down to what sort of game you are playing:

Open lists are best where it matters who wins as they prevent (usually accidental) wargear on the wrong model &c., or where you are proxying/heavily converting a lot of models (so WYSIWYG is a real problem). They also make the game about cunning tactics and synergies instead of surprises.

Closed lists are often more fun as they allow for the big reveal of what the new unit is, but do cause problems if there are any trust issues.

For true fluff, there could be a test at the start of the game (or even at the point a unit got to a certain key distance form the enemy) to identify magical items, &c. based on familiarity of your race to the other race with modifiers for wizards and so forth; it would be a pain to administer though.

As a related question, if you do like open list do you feel it should be completely open, i.e. you have a copy of your opponent's list beside you to consult whenever you wish, or just showing the list at the start for you to check points &c with you having to remember what was in each unit during the game?


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Hence why Van horstmans speculum (spelling) is such a fucker!


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## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

It's ironic that 40K is so open and yet so strict on WYSIWYG and Fantasy is the opposite. 

By that I mean gear in a unit is assumed to be uniform regardless of what's represented on the individual models. It actually has inspired me to MAKE my individual models WYSIWYG just for fun, by adding lances to the command section of my Bretonnian Knights.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

You should make a deadly Musical Lance for your Musician. I suggest something in the Brass or woodwind family but a Mandolance, Glockenlance or Timplance would be awesome. 

Aramoro


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Or a massive Triangle as a great weapon on the Question knights


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