# VC thoughts?



## HiveMinder (Feb 8, 2010)

So now that the tomb kings have been released, what's everyone's thoughts on seeing a VC update sometime soon (within 2 years). I know it may just be wishful thinking because I want to start a VC army when they get an update, but I think it makes a whole lot of sense that they would be up soon. 

Like Tomb Kings, they became horribly overpriced with the changes to Fear. And especially now that the cost of skeletons was cut in half for the new book, it stands to reason that the VCs will need a similar price cut. Its the proverbial elephant in the room.

Also, since we're speaking in hypotheticals, what new models would you like to see for the VCs? Everything seems to be getting monsters nowadays, so what do you think the VC monster would be?

Personally, I'd be happy with some plastic Blood Knights and perhaps a Zombie Dragon or Abyssal Terrors as Rare Choices. And maybe some plastic Black Knights while we're at it.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

A quick fix to the VC book would to just simply adjust the prices of Core choices accordingly.

Lowering Skeletons to 4/5 pts and Ghouls to 6 pts would give VC back cheap troops on a par with other cheap troops.

As for Rare choices, they've got arguably the best cavalry and second best monster.

And for special, they've got one of the best Deathstars.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

MOST of the rare / special choices are priced fine. Wraiths, the coach, knights, GG & the vargulf are all priced effecively. The rest of their choices are pretty aweful though. Spirit hosts & Fell bats aren't worth their points (fell bats vs warmachine crew is a fair fight... but the fell bats can't fight *anything* else and can't march once they've eaten that crew...)

Ghouls are (i believe) fairly priced considering their damage output, survivability and the ability to res them. But skeletons should be knocked down to TK prices - TK skeletons are actually better since the characters they WILL be taking will pass their WS on *while in combat* - and you know, for free... and... you know, to multiple units per turn. 

What's that? You pay 4 points for your skeletons w/ sword & board AND by putting that character you were going to take anyways in there they become WS5? Wow. My skeletons cost twice what yours do and are WS 2 _(meaning mine hit yours on 5's FYI...)_. Oh yeah, well I guess I can raise more of them per turn than you can if I get a strong magic phase so that must make up for it. Oh what? Your resing comes from casting buffs on the unit? Well fuck me.

oh, and zombies should be about the same price as skaven slaves. Even that would be pushing it. Taking them if effectively GIVING your opponent VP...


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## Whamhammer (Jan 19, 2009)

Zombie figures could use an update and blood nights need 2 be plastic, there price is ridiculously high.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

Didn't read the OP very well I guess...

thing with VC is that they don't need "new" models per say as you can convert pretty much anything you want from any other line with a simple head swap or whatever - want undead peasants? slap some skeleton arms / skulls on bretonian men at arms. Want some undead wood elves? well this one's a bit harder since they're either archers or metal... but it is possible.

I'm not sure vampires need / should have a monster(s) so to speak. What really comes to your mind when you think vampires? I think some type of zombie giant maybe - something like a unit of werewolves (thinking something like minotaurs here...) or vampire brides like the ladies from Bram Stoker's Dracula. But nothing really screams monsterous when I'm thinking vampires. Of course I never thought of a giant walking sphinx with angel wings & dagger hands when I thought of tomb kings though so I'm sure they'll come up with something...


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## HiveMinder (Feb 8, 2010)

clever handle said:


> But skeletons should be knocked down to TK prices - TK skeletons are actually better since the characters they WILL be taking will pass their WS on *while in combat* - and you know, for free... and... you know, to multiple units per turn.
> 
> What's that? You pay 4 points for your skeletons w/ sword & board AND by putting that character you were going to take anyways in there they become WS5? Wow. My skeletons cost twice what yours do and are WS 2 _(meaning mine hit yours on 5's FYI...)_. Oh yeah, well I guess I can raise more of them per turn than you can if I get a strong magic phase so that must make up for it. Oh what? Your resing comes from casting buffs on the unit? Well fuck me.


The WS bit for the TK is part of the Tomb King ruling, so its value is incorperated into the price of the Tomb King, not the skeletons. So matching VC skeletons with TK skeletons in price would be completely fair.

And on a related note, they become WS6, not 5.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

@ everyone wanting cheaper blood knights- the new plastic high elf dragon princes just scream 'do minimal conversions to me (or none at all) and paint me red'. Easy, cheap and very pretty blood knights.

What it seems to me is that VCs need some kind of magic defense beyond balefire. I mean, S3 I2 (IIRC), that's just asking for it.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

HiveMinder said:


> The WS bit for the TK is part of the Tomb King ruling, so its value is incorperated into the price of the Tomb King, not the skeletons. So matching VC skeletons with TK skeletons in price would be completely fair.
> 
> And on a related note, they become WS6, not 5.


Oh I fully agree. 3 points less you get the exact same model that when coupled with the character you were going to take anyways becomes much better. There are only (3) downsides to TK skeletons & both are somewhat mitigated by gaming circumstance.

First, you only resurrect D3+1 skeletons instead of the D6 you get in VC, but this means you get between 2 & 4 skeletons per raise, averaging 3. In VC you get 1-6 skeletons per raise, averaging 3.5. Of course you must also consider that the TK raising is the byproduct of casting incantations on the unit & not a direct raise spell, meaning they have additional benefits granted beyond the raising of their models.

Second, you can't increase the size of your unit beyond what it started at for TK. Well, this is a _vampire_ ability & you pay points for it in your _characters_ in the VC army book.

Third downside to TK skeletons is that they can't march. This is a big one but I'm not sure it is worth *doubling* the cost of the unit... after all, remove the vampires and VC skeletons can't march either (of course the goal of the canny VC player is to not let that happen....)

@coke123 I used Chaos Knights myself. Cut off the chaos iconography & give them a head swap & you have some brutal looking knights. I'm not sure what you mean in your last sentence there. What does S3 I2 have to do with balefire magical defense?


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Someone bought me a box of blood knights for a present so lucky me...for everyone else I say convert them up. 10 bK = 200 dollars in some places....sad panda.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

coke123 said:


> @ everyone wanting cheaper blood knights- the new plastic high elf dragon princes just scream 'do minimal conversions to me (or none at all) and paint me red'. Easy, cheap and very pretty blood knights.
> 
> What it seems to me is that VCs need some kind of magic defense beyond balefire. I mean, S3 I2 (IIRC), that's just asking for it.


This guy is typing gold.

Or rather, a way to save gold.


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

VC's need alot of help... Everything in the list bar Wight Kings, Necromancers, Ghouls, Grave Guard & the coach are easily all fairly over-costed to 'WTF over-costed crapheaps'.

What I'd like to see;
- bring back the Vampire Count as a cheaper lord option, then buff the Vampire Lord a bit so that he is truely the fearsome creature he should be!
Also, please for the love of all unholy night, *give us proper fucking equipment options!!!*

- Thralls need a complete overhaul as they're currently one of the game's most unbalanced choices; S5 + 3 attacks screams combat, yet they're only the 'average' T4/W2, Ld7 which is a joke AND they're stuck with a mandetory wizard level which really inflates their cost! Oh, and they pay only you know, *3x/4x the cost every other character pays for basic god damn equipment!!!* (Gav Thorpe - the bane of games design)
Basically, reduce their pts cost by 20'ish pts, remove the wizard level and make it an optional upgrade, give them some equipment options that don't cost a minimum of 20+ pts and they'll be fine.
Right now they're simply the game's worst example of a 'jack of all trades, master of none' type character - and if there's one thing VC's need more than anything else, it's viable & effective characters!

- bring back the bloodlines as perhaps a 'mark system' similar to chaos warriors. Each bloodline mark could have a special rule or two - for example say frenzy & hatred for blood dragons?
Also would allow GW to cut-out redundant powers & add back old goodies from the earlier books too! (such as 'heart-piercing' which could perhaps allow you to re-roll to-wounds in a challenge or such!)

- We know the core issues... Basically I'd like to see zombies go back to T3, and make corpse carts a unit upgrade for them. (since in the background, the carts are always attended to by masses of zombies!)
Skeletons simply need a pts reduction, perhaps add a rather expensive option for heavy armour too? (more or less for 'fun', since we already have the models in the current range)
Ghouls go back to skirmishers. They're too good right now, and forming ordered ranks just doesn't fit with their backstory of being cowardly, skulking, backstabbers who pick on weaker prey! Plus, it would give the poor skeletons a real reason to exist!
Dire wolves need either outright S4, or else give them back their old 'slavering charge' rule. Right now they're as awsome as zombies!!!

- Basic pts alterations across specials & rares... Fell bats should be on par with carrion, spirit hosts need work, black knights are expensive and become 'worse' when you add a vampire to the unit... Blood knights are over-costed right now as they do go down quite easily, banshees suck monkey-balls, the vargulf is quite squishy now in 8th.
Not saying huge pts reductions, but please, let's bring them in line with how they work in the game now!
Grave guard & the coach though are currently a bit OP imho... The great weapon option should be a wee bit more expensive, while the coach just needs an overhaul considering how magic now works. (at least before, you could stop it from chewing up your own dice when you wanted to!)

As for new stuff? VC's really need the following;
a) a fast cav option OR a unit w/vanguard. The lack of a fast-moving harrassing unit means we have few ways to deal with opponents who can use 2-3+ units of these things... It also leaves us very vulnerable to gunlining opponents as the only way to quickly close right now, is an 8" ghoulkin push.
A fast cav option helps gives us an outlet for dealing with various problems that can really cripple us right now. Plus, how cool would say a unit of lightly armoured 'headless horsemen' be?!!

b) a monstrous 'insert unit type' unit. Monstrous units have become one of the game's best answers to combating cheap hordes. Undead - especially VC's, struggle to deal with multiple units of massed cheap troops... Plus, monstrous units also help counter the enemy's monster by negating stomps/thunderstomps.
Right now, we're relyant on super expensive blood knights, black knights & vampires to deal with these threats...
Something akin to werewolves would be cool please!

c) a war machine of some type. Shooting is huge in 8th. Bigger games means bigger units and/or masses of MSU's. VC's have such a big difficulty dealing with this, (because our book's internal balance is shit'tastically bad), that our only answers are a set army list comp of ghoul-spam & gravestar!
Thus, gaining something like a bolt thrower and/or stone thrower gives us the chance to compete in all phases of the game, plus it takes the pressure off the army as whole and allows for some variety in list designs...
Plus, we're the only fucking army without a single shooter! Thank's GW... (and don't say banshees because 175pts base for an average of 3 kills/turn doesn't even equal steaming poop!)

As for other new units? I'm curious to find out what our forth-coming 'Hellwraith' could be?!:wink:

Now, whislisting is all well and good! But the really serious point imho is to prey that Matt 'gak-head' Ward or Vetock *don't* touch the new VC book with a continent-spaming pole!!!:shok:

Cheers!


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

experiment 626 said:


> bring back the Vampire Count as a cheaper lord option, then buff the Vampire Lord a bit so that he is truely the fearsome creature he should be!
> Also, please for the love of all unholy night, *give us proper fucking equipment options!!!*


Have to disagree with you here on both points. The vampire lord is a truly awesome combat machine if properly kitted out. The only things more deadly are Chaos lords (and they should be). With Infinite Hatred, Red Fury, Nightshroud, Crown of the Damned & your magical weapon of choice (mine is sword of striking) you have a unit eating machine. 6 WS 7, rerolling to hit, S5 attacks each wound generating additional attacks? Yes please. Cast savage beast on him for 9 S8 attacks & watch whole units melt. The nightshroud ensures he gets a chance to attack before ANYTHING can target him & he has a 4++ to fall back on in case he doesn't kill his target.

In addition, VC have some absolutely fantastic magical arms & armor when compared to other books - compare the selection in the VC book to that found in WoC. And 20 points to equip your character with Heavy armor and have the choice to go GW, S&B or 2HW? Not bad - not great, but not bad. You are on par with an exalted hero in the WoC book (1 less I believe) and 5 points cheaper BUT you are a lvl1 caster with easy access to healing.



experiment 626 said:


> Thralls need a complete overhaul as they're currently one of the game's most unbalanced choices; S5 + 3 attacks screams combat, yet they're only the 'average' T4/W2, Ld7 which is a joke AND they're stuck with a mandetory wizard level which really inflates their cost! Oh, and they pay only you know





experiment 626 said:


> Basically, reduce their pts cost by 20'ish pts, remove the wizard level and make it an optional upgrade, give them some equipment options that don't cost a minimum of 20+ pts and they'll be fine.


Thralls are heros not lords. MOST heros are T4 2W... Ld7 doesn't matter since there's that whole immune to psychology thing going in your entire army so that's kind of a moot point. Again - if you're thinking combaty then compare to an exalted champion (see my point above). The inclusion of wizard level is a characterful aspect of VC - in previous editions it was a big deal to have multiple casters - it still is, only to a lesser extent. If you have a single big bad casty character & he fails / miscasts you may be hooped, but by having one or two _lesser_ casters as well you can still toss out that IoN when need be, even if you failed to cast your big bad rulebook lore spell with your Lvl4 lord.



experiment 626 said:


> - bring back the bloodlines as perhaps a 'mark system' similar to chaos warriors. Each bloodline mark could have a special rule or two - for example say frenzy & hatred for blood dragons?
> Also would allow GW to cut-out redundant powers & add back old goodies from the earlier books too! (such as 'heart-piercing' which could perhaps allow you to re-roll to-wounds in a challenge or such!)


yes.



experiment 626 said:


> - We know the core issues... Basically I'd like to see zombies go back to T3, and make corpse carts a unit upgrade for them. (since in the background, the carts are always attended to by masses of zombies!)
> Skeletons simply need a pts reduction, perhaps add a rather expensive option for heavy armour too? (more or less for 'fun', since we already have the models in the current range)


yes (but they'd still be overpriced @ 4 pts). yes. no - they don't need heavy armor, thats what grave guard are for.



experiment 626 said:


> Ghouls go back to skirmishers. They're too good right now, and forming ordered ranks just doesn't fit with their backstory of being cowardly, skulking, backstabbers who pick on weaker prey! Plus, it would give the poor skeletons a real reason to exist!


I disagree on the "too good". For their points cost ghouls are fine - they only really shine when compared to skeletons who are obviously overcosted. By reducing the cost of skeletons to allow players to field a significant amount of them to offset their lack of prowess. I do however agree that the current rank & file approach doesn't fit their fluff (the reason I don't use them...). If you're looking for vanguard I'd say that ghouls are the way to go. Make them skirmishers & have them able to make vanguard move - this is obviously the intent of the ghoulkin vampiric ability, but IMO this is a bad way of implementing it - basically allowing 1/2 your army to leap forwards...



experiment 626 said:


> Grave guard & the coach though are currently a bit OP imho... The great weapon option should be a wee bit more expensive, while the coach just needs an overhaul considering how magic now works. (at least before, you could stop it from chewing up your own dice when you wanted to!)


GG & the coach are priced quiet fairly. Remember, your GG are special but are only WS & I3 so without the GW they're STILL striking after many comparible elites. And even with Banner of Barrows & Crown of Command you're only going to successfully score one or two KB attacks unless you've horded up - then you may get one more. Not too bad considering most other armies' special (and many core) will be (a) striking first & (b) hitting you on 3's.



experiment 626 said:


> c) a war machine of some type. Shooting is huge in 8th.... Thus, gaining something like a bolt thrower and/or stone thrower gives us the chance to compete in all phases of the game, plus it takes the pressure off the army as whole and allows for some variety in list designs...
> Plus, we're the only fucking army without a single shooter!


Again, this is an army characteristic. VC don't shoot. If you want shooting undead you play Tomb Kings


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Vampire characters in no way compare to chaos characters... We spend a massive premium because we're forced into taking abilities we don't nessessarily want/need. (ie: a fighty lord doesn't need to be a Lv2 or 3 caster, while a 'caster lord' is giving up all those lovely combat stats!)
Going back to the distinction between a Count & Lord means we can better tailor our characters to given roles... (as every other army can) In smaller games, we can use the slightly cheaper count and get 'more bang for buck' outa him than we would the expensive lord choice. Meanwhile, in larger pts games, we could have a 'proper' Lord who could go toe-to-toe with other combat monsters and not get turning into a fine red paste! (I've lost count the number of times my 'combat lord' has been soundly beaten by the likes of ogre tyrants, chaos lords/exalted champs, scar vets and the like...)

Thralls are garbage for what we're paying and are a liability beyond a couple of 'niche' roles... (ie: WS Hat wearing supportive loremaster)
They go down quite quickly and they give up alot of VP's for what little combat gain you'll get out of them. I've recently gone to using a cheap Wight King + Necro over my 2nd thrall, and they do the same jobs, only much better!
And Ld7 _*does*_ indeed matter if/when your general dies! When wight kings can hold units together better than a fucking vampire, somethings definately wrong!

Making wizard levels options, plus giving basic equipment options would go a long way to helping us build the characters we want and need! 


Grave Guard might have piss-poor stats for an elite infantry unit, but they're always that well supported unit to begin with... The (mandetory) barrows banner, plus the various ways we can get additional WS, ASF + re-rolls to hit means they butcher most units. (otherwise a gravestar wouldn't be so dominant in competitive play)
Right now, I do agree with non VC players that our GG are a bit too good. The easiest change would be to make the great weapon cost a point more, because it can easily make that big of an impact on the game. (allowing GG to take on pretty much anything with relative reliability) Plus, it would be nice to give the old sword&board some viability too!
In my book, when somethng becomes a blatently obvious 'why wouldn't you?', it's likely too good.


As for the shooting question... Yes, at one time, GW had a rule of thumb that certain armies were 'non-shooting' armies.
That's very much changed though! Chaos Warriors have the game's biggest & badest war machine + mounted marauder thrown weapons, Beastmen get harassing skirmishing short bows + a stone thrower monster, Daemons have the disgusting flamers, even Bretonnians have a damn war machine!!! (and it was once said they would *never* get war machines!)
Thus, as the only army in the game who can't shoot even a fartgun, VC's have been left well and truely behind, and in an edition were shooting is desperately needed to counter everything from cheaper monsters, to MSU's to hordes.
I'm not advocating VC's getting the change to gunline, but the background is full of examples of eerie, bone-constructed war machines that hurl magical projectiles into the enemy's ranks! (plus, how the hell else did Vlad ever win a siege without big, nasty death-dealing contraptions!:no


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

clever handle said:


> @coke123 I used Chaos Knights myself. Cut off the chaos iconography & give them a head swap & you have some brutal looking knights. I'm not sure what you mean in your last sentence there. What does S3 I2 have to do with balefire magical defense?


Those'd be some beefy vampires indeed. Another good suggestion.

The stats have everything to do with magic defense. The most wtfh4xpwn spells are based on characteristic tests, which happen to target Strength and Initiative. VC (and TK, I guess) are susceptible to Dwellers, Pit of Shades, Purple Sun of 'Oh, my army just died', Penumbral Pendulum, etc, which means that they are affected by more nasty spells than any other race (that I can think of). Hence they need to be able to defend themselves against it better. Hence Balefire (your only extra magic defense beyond dispelling, AFAIK) needs improvement.

Take my Lizardmen. Sure, they sadface against many of the spells I named above (pretty much all of them bar Dwellers), due to I1/I2 on pretty much every non sacrificial unit i have. You know how they manage to remain top tier? They can stop this bullshit. They can defend against it pretty well. The only thing that truly fucks them over is powerscroll/HE Bookmage/Teclis, and frankly, they screw over everyone anyway.


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Tomb Kings do quite a bit better against the strength-based tests because they have all their constructs & tomb guard. It's their core units that mainly get screwed over, though their Hierophant is worryingly vulnerable too.
VC's have only the vampires themselves who pretty much laugh at all those spells. Every unit gets utterly boned, though the wights can deal with strength tests at least. (but no one's really stupid enough to dwellers them _without reducing their strength first_!)

Plus, we have the black periapt, a dispel scroll and over-costed balefires which don't count towards core mins as the only defense beyond randomly generated DD...
Magic, which is _suppossed_ to be our strength, instead fucks us over more than it helps in any kind of competitive play?!:russianroulette:


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I'd like to see VC crossbowmen. I mean, how the fuck do they defend the Hasselhoff castle without some kind of ranged output?

I do miss My Blood Dragon Vampire Lord. Would love to see 'Family Bloodline' traits return. Swapping stats for Stats.
AKA, a Blood Dragon Lord loses a level of Magic for +1 WS and A. etc.
Here you can then bring in Bloodline Items.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

bloodlines & stuff are almost certianly done & gone. Even Chaos lost god specific items (well, they have them in title but a sorceror can wear a collar of Khorne....)

In the aweful Vampire Wars books the vampires all have peasant levies & indentured human soldiers who fight with them. I don't disagree that having some form of shooting in a VC army would be nice, but then what would keep it different from the tomb kings other than the distinctly egypitian feel?

& contrary to popular belief shooting is not that godly in 8th Ed. You get one, maybe two or three turns to fire before a CC based army is in combat & of course recognizing this fact the game designers allowed for shooting in multiple ranks, but most units of archers are still only fielded 20 strong & I can tell you that in 7th ed the ONLY games I played where there weren't hills in the deployment zone were between vampires & chaos since we just didn't care about the boons to shooting.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

If your depending on your shooting to stop the enemy why would you ever need more then two ranks for a shooting unit?


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## koby (Apr 4, 2011)

I used to be a big VC in 6th edition and having since returned to the hobby, i bought the new book and thought immediately that it wasnt for me anymore. Maybe with a new update ill consider starting fantasy again, but not untill i can make a necromancer L2 again!


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

clever handle said:


> bloodlines & stuff are almost certianly done & gone. Even Chaos lost god specific items (well, they have them in title but a sorceror can wear a collar of Khorne....)
> 
> In the aweful Vampire Wars books the vampires all have peasant levies & indentured human soldiers who fight with them. I don't disagree that having some form of shooting in a VC army would be nice, but then what would keep it different from the tomb kings other than the distinctly egypitian feel?


Well, to keep us different, I would be happy with just a war machine or two; something like perhaps a bolt thrower + stone thrower.
Thus, the TK's would still be the much better 'shooty undead', but it gives the VC's some direly needed ability to deal with large hordes and/or MSU's spam.

Right now, we just crumble to both because we have very little reliable way to even begin to thin numbers before combats...


As for the bloodlines... Seriously GW, would it be that bloody difficult to give 'Bloodline Marks' ala chaos marks?!! We don't need to go back to the old stat-modifying if Little Timmy is too stupid to understand basic maths, but a mark with a special rule or two?
If bloodlines don't make a comeback, then it's simply GW being dumb & lazy again!



clever handle said:


> & contrary to popular belief shooting is not that godly in 8th Ed. You get one, maybe two or three turns to fire before a CC based army is in combat & of course recognizing this fact the game designers allowed for shooting in multiple ranks, but most units of archers are still only fielded 20 strong & I can tell you that in 7th ed the ONLY games I played where there weren't hills in the deployment zone were between vampires & chaos since we just didn't care about the boons to shooting.


Shooting isn't ment to be godly, but gunlines do exist, and they're damned effective - more so now than they were in 7th as you get alot more bang for your buck.

VC's having piss-all for shooting is a huge gimp to the army, which has already being eye-raped by the new edition's changes to balance out the giant daemon fuck-up...
VC's need a little bit of shooting now to compete since magic is a double-edged sword, and it's a very unreliable way to deal with multiple rank-and-files.

Cheers!


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

By making vampire core worth what it _should_ be worth, which they've done in the TK book, VC will become more competitive again. By allowing us to DOUBLE our unit sizes for the same cost & maintain our special & rare hammers we'll be able to function & this will allow us to mostly ignore the effects of our enemy's shooting. The problem now is that when you lose a rank or two to whittling fire on your way into combat & need a strong magic phase to rebuild & don't get it you're immediately hosed (here's looking at you Dark Elf repeater crossbowmen w/ HW:S) but if instead of having a brick of 30 you have a horde of 60, losing 10 models isn't such a big deal.


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Where I and alot of other local VC players are having a real problem though is dealing with 3 or so enemy hordes, and/or MSU's.

Our core just doesn't fight worth crap, ghouls excepted. So even when say 40 skeletons fight 30 empire halberdiers/swordsmen, the empire still typically causes more kills. (even if they fail their fear test!)
MSU's is even worse, as they'll typically run rings around our slower undead. (looking at you lizzies, elves & skaven!)

Getting a war machine or two as options to deal with these issues is the easiest & best 'fix' IMHO. It will give us an answer to blatent abuse of MSU's, plus it makes the game fair as now we'll not just be twiddling our thumbs for part our turn.

Now keep in mind, the big rulebook hints at;
- corpse carts joining zombie units. (allows them to finnaly count towards core mins, but will stop open abuse of that)

- a war machine or two. (large bone constructed tower, bone constructed bolt thrower?)

- a hellwraith!!!

Cheers!


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I hope GW throw a curve ball in the sense of corpse carts.

Instead of having the CC be an add-on for a Zombie unit, have it the other way.

Have the CC able to have zombies attached to it for 2-3pts. Give it a special rule where it recovers d6+1 zombies a turn or something (and maybe +2d6 f it breaks a unit in CC).
This would give VC a army 'core' that is self sufficient, fluffy and not to over powered.

As for Vampires themselves, I'd like to see either bloodline powers cheapened or up the limit cost to 150. This would round out the 'weakness' of having 'vanilla' vampires.

The 150 points would allow several combos that would put VCs back near the top of the combat pile. I know one could argue that they will then be to strong, but lets face it, you could go overboard and take a 500 point vampire. And if you look at what characters float around that point cost, you'll see it's reasonably fair.

I have no clue what part of undeath stops skeletons operating crossbows/bows. 

As for a weapon, some kind of bolt thrower would fit the bill nicely. But will still be under power to the likes of Empire cannons/Elven Bolt throwers etc. Which is fair and fluffy.

On Items such as Vlad's ring. I go the other way to you guys. I say up it to 90/100 points and increase the ward save to 2+ (adjust vlad accordingly). And with the increase to the bloodline point limit, you could make Tank casters of extremely level/warriors who do not die.

HOWEVER,
I think the introduction of a new rule to the Vampire entry, making them more important to the armies casting.
Aka, if a Vampire lord dies, the whole army is at -3 to cast. If a normal vampire dies, the army is at -1.
This would put an emphasis on the fact that army NEEDS the vampires. In every way.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

I think most of your points are very good Orochi, but the additional hampering for the loss of a vampire is OTT & silly. The loss of the vampire lord is felt because you now no longer have a lvl 2+ caster. If other armies have a lvl4 mage & a couple support casters shouldn't they also feel that same hit then sif their workhorse caster dies? You _need_ vampires to (a) cast, (b) march, (c) kill & (d) not crumble off the table period. Basically, you need them in every way already - they don't need to further penalize us for needing to take them?


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I was weighing it upon if we're making vampires stronger (increasing bloodline powers; Lords - 150pts, Vampires - 75pts) then further penalties should be raised.

As if we're making troops/core cheaper, that means points saved can go on making Vampires stronger.
So we'll have more troops and stronger characters.

I was just trying to be fair 

ps, as with 150 points, you could make an ethereal, red fury, inifinite hatred and avatar of death lord. That's unpleasant.

See my logic?


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

experiment 626 said:


> Tomb Kings do quite a bit better against the strength-based tests because they have all their constructs & tomb guard. It's their core units that mainly get screwed over, though their Hierophant is worryingly vulnerable too.
> VC's have only the vampires themselves who pretty much laugh at all those spells. Every unit gets utterly boned, though the wights can deal with strength tests at least. (but no one's really stupid enough to dwellers them _without reducing their strength first_!)
> 
> Plus, we have the black periapt, a dispel scroll and over-costed balefires which don't count towards core mins as the only defense beyond randomly generated DD...
> Magic, which is _suppossed_ to be our strength, instead fucks us over more than it helps in any kind of competitive play?!:russianroulette:


So... are you agreeing with me? Undead of all varieties are pwned by magic, hence VCs need better magic defense. Maybe make balefire work like the Lizardmen's Becalming Cogitation, but perhaps with decreased range- say 12", in order to balance out the fact that you could easily take multiples.



experiment 626 said:


> As for the bloodlines... Seriously GW, would it be that bloody difficult to give 'Bloodline Marks' ala chaos marks?!! We don't need to go back to the old stat-modifying if Little Timmy is too stupid to understand basic maths, but a mark with a special rule or two?
> If bloodlines don't make a comeback, then it's simply GW being dumb & lazy again!


 GW has been removing this sort of thing for the last couple of editions- they also did this to Lizardmen. During the transition to our 7th edition book, we lost our spawning upgrades. I don't think either VC or lizards are getting those back; marks will remain a part of the chaos flavour.



experiment 626 said:


> VC's having piss-all for shooting is a huge gimp to the army, which has already being eye-raped by the new edition's changes to balance out the giant daemon fuck-up...
> VC's need a little bit of shooting now to compete since magic is a double-edged sword, and it's a very unreliable way to deal with multiple rank-and-files.


Except that shooting really isn't a part of the VC character. Again , it ain't gonna happen, so stop saying it should. You'll just raise your expectations, and when a new book comes out you'll just be filled with even more impotent nerdrage. I guess you could have some short-ranged shooting without it being odd (a la Salamanders, I believe tzeentch flamers are pretty short?), but bolt/stone throwers? Really? That's very un-VC.


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

coke123: Lizardmen spawnings were something that had been talked about in the backstory, but it only appeared as rules during 6th ed...

Vampire Bloodlines & powers have been around since the army's original inception as 'Warhammer Armies: Vampire Counts'! That's quite a bit different than things like lizard spawnings and much more akin to chaos marks & bretonnian virtues...
Point is, without bloodlines/powers, vampires are simply nothing beyond neutered chaos champions!

As for shooting, at one time I wouldn't argue it, because GW had a number of armies they came out and said would never get shooting! Those armies included the likes of chaos warriors, beastmen, war machines for brets, etc...
But here's the kicker, GW's given ALL those armies exactly what they once said they'd never get! We're the only army left who can't do piss all in the shooting phase. Thus, it's unfair for VC's as times have indeed changed, and everyone else has been given additional options that only a single army lacks...

Plus, the BRB has hinted at 2 war machines for VC's;
- a large tower construct. Perhaps something akin to a plague furnace/screaming bell type machine that's pushed into battle?

- a bolt thrower type machine. It at least gives VC's a way to counter heavily armoured units beyond killing blow, great weapons & vampires!

I'd be happy with even just 1 of those!!! Just _something_ to help add some extra flavour to what's right now a very bland army, and give us another outlet for dealing with very troublesome units.

Cheers!


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## HiveMinder (Feb 8, 2010)

Here's an idea. I can't speak to how good it is, but its something that I thought would bring the Vampires back to VC. How about ahving a ubiquitous Vampire Thrall upgrade to the core units, using a similar mechanic to the Dark Elf assassins. Or perhaps they could be restricted, like 1-3 Vampire Thralls per Vampire in the army.

They would have the option of one 25 pt or less Vampiric Power and coud cast Invocation of Nehek as an innate ability, but only for the unit they were a part of. I'm not sure how OP it would be to call them Lvl. 1 Wizards and let them channel power dice, or to just have them cast IoN with one 'free' power dice only. 

But it would add a bit more vampire flavor to the army and would add two things to VC units. A little extra punch in combat, and a higher Ld for the unit when the Vampires die.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

One thing that could be considered is actual units of vampires themselves.

Lord: Vampire Lord
Hero: Vampire Count
then
Rare/Special: Vampire Phalanx. The could be the VC PG equivilent to GG (who themslves are akin to white lions/SMs).

This would add a unit that was actually caperble of looking after themselves. Essentially, a 'don't fuck with me' unit.

You could 'relate' the unit with bloodlines. So a Blood Dragon unit would be hyper combat caperble, lots of weapon options etc. A Necrarch (speeling) could work in a similar way to Horrors in the magic phase. Etc Etc


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

experiment 626 said:


> coke123: Lizardmen spawnings were something that had been talked about in the backstory, but it only appeared as rules during 6th ed...
> 
> Vampire Bloodlines & powers have been around since the army's original inception as 'Warhammer Armies: Vampire Counts'! That's quite a bit different than things like lizard spawnings and much more akin to chaos marks & bretonnian virtues...
> Point is, without bloodlines/powers, vampires are simply nothing beyond neutered chaos champions!


I'm not saying it's a bad thing, or that it's unfluffy- I am saying that non-Chaos codexes are getting more vanilla, and hence it's unlikely to happen. If they brought back bloodlines, I'd seriously consider starting a strigoi army myself.



experiment 626 said:


> As for shooting, at one time I wouldn't argue it, because GW had a number of armies they came out and said would never get shooting! Those armies included the likes of chaos warriors, beastmen, war machines for brets, etc...


You may have a point on chaos, but what shooting do beastmen have again? That monster thing that chucks rocks? Makes sense. and I don't see what's wrong with Brettonians having shooting- they're meant to fill a medieval french archetype, and the french made extensive use of trebuchets and peasnt archers.



experiment 626 said:


> But here's the kicker, GW's given ALL those armies exactly what they once said they'd never get! We're the only army left who can't do piss all in the shooting phase.


Ever considered that's one of the defining features of VC? That's like saying dwarves should get cavalry because everyone else does- that's just part of the archetype.



experiment 626 said:


> Thus, it's unfair for VC's as times have indeed changed, and everyone else has been given additional options that only a single army lacks...


That doesn't mean change the flavour. It means make them better whilst maintaining the flavour. VCs are about the horrifying undead horde of minions advancing to eat your brains/blood/whatever body part or fluid they see fit, so rather than finding some messy explaination as to why zombies are loading your bolt thrower, just halve the cost of your core, and cheapen a bunch of other stuff. Maybe also increase the ability to reraise your stuff, although this probably would be OTT if your core is half cost.



experiment 626 said:


> Plus, the BRB has hinted at 2 war machines for VC's;
> - a large tower construct. Perhaps something akin to a plague furnace/screaming bell type machine that's pushed into battle?
> 
> - a bolt thrower type machine. It at least gives VC's a way to counter heavily armoured units beyond killing blow, great weapons & vampires!


I'll bite- who mans these war machines? Because I'm at a loss. Actually, I don't really see the problem with the tower construct, but then again it probably wouldn't be a shooting weapon- I imagine that should it be the sort of thing that improves the ability to raise undead (like a giant corpse cart).

If you want a counter to heavy units, you could just as easily make it so that Varghuls are a monstrous infantry unit. That might be a bit much, maybe get a mini-varghulf or something, but you get the idea.



experiment 626 said:


> I'd be happy with even just 1 of those!!! Just _something_ to help add some extra flavour to what's right now a very bland army, and give us another outlet for dealing with very troublesome units.
> 
> Cheers!


I don't really see what's bland about VC... it's a less than mid tier power wise, for sure, but it's flavoursome enough.


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## Inquisitor Aurelius (Jun 9, 2008)

Seriously, mate - "other armies have it, therefore so should mine"? Go play chess if that's what you're after. Vampires can't shoot. It's just part of the package. (I think adding the Hellcannon to the main WoC list after Storm of Chaos was a mistake, for the record, but... they had models to sell. Shit happens.)

Bloodlines still exist, by the way; they just aren't codified as such. It's the simplest thing in the world to make a Blood Dragon/Strigoi/Necrarch etc. Just because you CAN mix and match powers doesn't mean you MUST. The fact that the distinction has been de-emphasized in the fluff is irritating, but hardly a gameplay concern.

While we're on the subject, VCs are only on the third iteration of their army book (as distinct from 'Warhammer Armies: Undead'), so bloodlines are hardly what you'd call a venerable institution.

And circling back to the shooting issue - isn't it a bit, er, counterintuitive to suggest that making the army LESS unique would ADD flavour? VCs don't need shooting - they just need better ways to weather it. Cheaper core troops would accomplish that goal admirably. Even failing that, it's not as though Summon Undead Horde suddenly ceased to exist when 8th was released...

Though a Screaming Bell-ish contraption _would_ be pretty fucking cool.


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## Ammit Brando (May 25, 2009)

I myself agree with those previous posters in saying that VC dont need shooting.

I think it would be fun to have, something uniquely VC, but its not needed.

We do need some upgrade to either 1. Ressurrecting our minions, or 2. survivability.

As it stands now, Ghouls are the toughest core choice.

Adding CC as a unit upgrade for zombies or skellies would be very usefull and armies would be able to field a few more. This would be fun

I would also like to see more vampire thrall units, 1 special perhaps?
As it is now, sure it makes sense, one or two vamps leading an army, because they want all the power. But what about the "sheep" that live in the kingdom who are vastly loyal to their lord? ie. Vlad being a good lord and treating the peasants like sheep.

Overall, I'd like to see some changes that allow us VC players to have more than 2 cookie cutter builds that are viable.


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## CountJerek (Jun 10, 2011)

Considering that in the fluff, it says that Vampires retain the knowledge they gained before becoming a Vampire, this means that they should be able to take an 'Undead Engineer' of sorts. He could be part of a new war machine. An undead catapult maybe? And when you bought this thing, it would come with four zombie crew, and the Undead Engineer. This means that the Engineer is a Vampire, but I don't think a 'magic casting war machine commander' would be a good idea. So make a wizard level an option to Vampire Hero's. Now the Engineer is starting to make sense. He's a non-wizard, has a good BS, and is in command of four zombies which are crewing a Catapult. Now if GW can come up with a good profile for this unit, I would be one happy Vampire.


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