# Whirlwind Ordinance Battery



## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Despite having played Space Marines in a variety of forms for nearly nine years, I've never used (or for that matter, owned) a Whirlwind. The effective deployment and use of the things is the one gap in my knowledge of using Space Marines, so I'm sort of curious as to how you all employ them.


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## Truthiness08 (Jan 17, 2008)

I personally don't own one or have ever used one for that matter, however I have seen a couple in action, they pretty much function behind cover (hill or behind a forest) and shoot whatever mob is coming their way, they seem fairly affective against troops. I may proxy one in the near future to see how well I like it.


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## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

similar to the way you would use a basilisk. its an indirect fire weapon, and it has pretty low armour, so hide it behind a hill or whatever and load it up with missiles.

(preferably, the ones which arent mines)


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

here's something else to think about for new marine armies (BA & DA) vengeance missiles, or incendiary castelian? (incindiaries use the ord blast but do flamer damage and AP and ignore cover)


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## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

I played a game where I brought 3 mine laying whirlwinds, I have to say it was pretty fantastic. I covered objectives in them and blocked off critical routes, it severely hampered my opponent, who sometimes had no choice to but to go through them, the cool thing about it is that even if it scatters and misses, it is still there, so when it scatters just in front, its even more useful sometimes.
also, it can force the opponent to go the long way, so my eldar opponent was being forced to use fleet in order to get around and it prevented him from shooting at me.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

I own two Whirlwinds and though they don't come out to play too often, every time they do they're a great asset. I've never found a single Whirlwind to be terribly effective as it always seems to scatter at the wrong time or be out of range. Taking a pair of them allows me to target pretty much anywhere on the board with at least one of them. In most missions I'll place one each on the far left and right flanks of my army behind cover and rain missile death down upon my enemies.

I've never used the mines, so I can't comment on those. I would like to say, though, that the incendiary variety is a very interesting choice. In the Blood Angel FAQ, it states that Whirlwinds choose their ammunition type during deployment. That means that from game to game (even in a tournament) we can switch our ammunition type to suit our foes. If we're going up against armies like Space Marines then we'll use the normal Vengeance missiles (while not terribly effective against MEQs they're certainly the better choice) and napalm doom against armies like Imperial Guard or Orks who like to sit in cover and shoot (and who also have poor armor saves).

Katie D


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

i need more stuff like this, i need whirlwinds and tornados.


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## Deceiver (Sep 19, 2007)

Edited.

I enjoy having the minefield scatter on top (below) the enemy unit. They have to make a check right away as they move out of it. Hitting vehicles in the rear armor (str 6) is ok too.


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## Changer of Ways (Jan 3, 2008)

Meh, whirlwinds are decent... but there are much better options for anything that you might do with a whirlwind. I say use one if you must, but try not to field more than one.


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## FarseerNo3 (Mar 7, 2008)

so we have 3 different types of missiles we can fire

ord
mines
flame

where are these rules in SM dex?


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Normal SM only get mines and ordinance, these are listed under the description of the whirlwind.

Blood ANgels and Dark Angels get ord or napalm. Though I wish we;d kept our mines.

Since you can target empty spce with the mines, you can drop them on harlies.


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## Lucius Vane (Jan 21, 2008)

Galahad said:


> Since you can target empty spce with the mines, you can drop them on harlies.


Ooh, I never thought about that. Thanks for the idea. :good:


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## Vanchet (Feb 28, 2008)

I only have 1 but init's lifetime it killed 7 sisters of battle in one shot as well as 4 blood angels at once. there was other things like banshees and the original targets  and with the incinedary rounds it has killed countless guardsman over the time it been with me, not to mention survive ALOT of ork rocket power (that actually hit)


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## Bogg (Mar 2, 2008)

go whirlwinds, !!


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## FarseerNo3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Lucius Vane said:


> Ooh, I never thought about that. Thanks for the idea. :good:


but harlequins have flip belts


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## Ubiquitous (Feb 17, 2008)

flip belts barely count, they're only a 5+ save. If you are making the harlequins run trough more than one minefield, they're going to be hurting anyway with their t3, whether or not they get a 5++.


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## FarseerNo3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Ubiquitous said:


> flip belts barely count, they're only a 5+ save. If you are making the harlequins run trough more than one minefield, they're going to be hurting anyway with their t3, whether or not they get a 5++.


no flip belts = ignore difficult terrain
+ holo suit + 5 save
+ a farseer on a jet bike + fortune on the harlequins

dam nevermind it doesnt class as terrain.

but it says anything moving over mine field. what i'm moving through It. 

that is what the rules say

anything moving over the mine field takes a s6 hit

since only jet bikes skimmers and jump infantry move over things, like terrain ect. and others move through cover (terrain this doesnt effect me.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Flip Belts don't help against mines, Farseer. Mines hurt pretty much everyone, even skimmers, jump-packers and Jetbikes.


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## Casmiricus (Mar 6, 2008)

FarseerNo3 said:


> no flip belts = ignore difficult terrain
> + holo suit + 5 save
> + a farseer on a jet bike + fortune on the harlequins
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's taking a very circuitous route. The Read-as rules (RAW) clearly intend that anything that moves on or close to the ground will take hits, while things like jump infantry will not.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Actually, Cas, you're a little off.
RAW is Rules As Written, which is the black and white of the rule, as it appears on the page, with no assumptions made about how it was intended to work, just how it works on paper. What you're referring to is RAI, Rules As Intended, which usually means ignoring the way the rule actually works in favor of how someone believes they should work.

However, in this case, the way the rules are written and how they are intended are one in the same. Mines hurt everyone.

Jump Troops and skimmers specifically *are* affected by mines. But it's not *just* them, it's every model that moves over a minefield. The minefield is on the ground. If your model is moving on the ground, you're moving over minefield. When you move your model on the board, are you putting it underneath the minefield marker? No, you put it over the minefield marker. If you jump or fly over it you're moving over mines. If you walk or roll over it, you're moving over mines.

p39 of the SM dex says "Skimmers and jump infantry are affected normally." They move over the mines, they get hit.

Further clarification comes from page 205 of the main book, conveniently titled...


Skimmers and Minefields said:


> Mines come in a variety of forms. Some contain specialised devices with proximity detectors, others have the ability to leap upwards, or simply detonate in such a spectaculat fashion that being a few meters in the air is no defence. Because of this, skimmers and troops with jump packs are affected by minefields just like ordinary troops and vehicles.


So mines hurt everyone, no matter what special abilities they have unless they specifically say "yeah, this works on mines too." Walk, fly, backflip, ninja-sneak, roll over it in an armored tank, fly over in a grav-tank or hawk wings or a jetbike, you're still going to be hit by mines.

Don't want to get hit by mines? Don't move over them, move around them.

Though, here's a question: If you're standing someplace, minding your own business, and some jerk comes by and drops a bunch of mines on you...do you set them off?

RAW says if you move over the minefield you take a hit. Theoretically, if you simply *stay put* you are not moving over mines and you are fine. However, if you try to move out of the minefield, or try to reposition within it, you take a hit. What's everyone else think?


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## Damned Fist (Nov 2, 2007)

Thanks for the clarification Galahad. I use the whirlwind mines all the time in my lists and I only make skimmers and jump infantry trigger them if they land on them. Had I used the information that you provided here in the tournament that I was recently in I'm sure that it would have made a huge difference in my only loss. The guy was playing Tau with 5 crisis suits that just kept jumping back and forth over them to get in and out of cover.

Good stuff, thanks again!


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Ouch. Yeah, if he was setting off those mines it would've made a big difference. :grin:

I'm not sure where I first spotted that rule, it's really something you have to already know to figure out, since it's so counter-intuitive.

BTW, I deleted my bit about whether or not they pin sinc eI decided to start a thread on it in rules. It's over here now


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## FarseerNo3 (Mar 7, 2008)

i agree with that, he goes holy shit im surrounded by mines i best not move


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## Damned Fist (Nov 2, 2007)

FarseerNo3 said:


> i agree with that, he goes holy shit im surrounded by mines i best not move


I had one game where the objective was loot counters and the whirlwind was on target for everything! The poor guy couldn't move..., I ended up with 3 objectives and he had none:taunt:


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## FarseerNo3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Damned Fist said:


> I had one game where the objective was loot counters and the whirlwind was on target for everything! The poor guy couldn't move..., I ended up with 3 objectives and he had none:taunt:


i don't get how the mines always hit the rear armor though? what if you drive in reverse


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Farseer, the rear armor hit represents hitting the relatively unarmored underside of the tank. It's blowing up and hitting the bottom of the tank, the rules just assume that the bottom and rear have the same AV


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## FarseerNo3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Galahad said:


> Farseer, the rear armor hit represents hitting the relatively unarmored underside of the tank. It's blowing up and hitting the bottom of the tank, the rules just assume that the bottom and rear have the same AV


can a skimmer fly upside down?


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

No, that's just plain silly.
Even if you did, the mines rule says they hit against rear armor, not "Hit against rear armor, unless you fly upside down, then it's totally front."

So you fly your upside down skimmers through a minefield and the mines explode against the flimsy glass canopy of your eldar hawk, which happens to have the same AV as your rear armor 

Don;t want to get hit by mines?
Go around them.


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## Haliphax (Mar 13, 2008)

In response to the "If mines fall on units" discussion, every time I've played with mines in both tournament play and casual, it was accepted widely that the units were hit by a mine field (and by hit, I mean they had a mine field land on them) they took damage accordingly, like any other ord. weapon. The idea "They just stand still" is pretty ridiculous. Shooting, moving, or any other action would likely set off the mines, and leaving a unit in a mine field just to keep it alive with no intention of moving it or otherwise taking any action with it is equally silly. The moment one of them got shot at they'd move anyway, and so it's rather pointless to delay the hits and site semantics. It just makes life easier to take the hits and move on.

A member of the group later rationalized that the mines were probably very advanced and could detect movement/heat/pheromones and the like. I don't care to think it that far, but it works for some people.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

While it's certainly reasonable to resolve it that way, I'll point out that the stat line for the mine warhead has Str and AP listed as N/A

So, you resolve the ordinance hit and it has no strength and no AP...
In fact, it says 'Instead of wounding enemy models under the template...' you place a minefield. The minefield goes off if you *move* over it.

I certainly wouldn't argue if my opponent wanted to play it as everyone under the template takes a S6 hit on a 4+ but the RAW suggests that they would not set off the mines until they move again.

After all, if you wander into a minefield you only take the hit for moving into, out of or moving around inside of it. You can walk into the minefield, take your hits and then camp out inside it without taking a hit every turn...you could turn it into a nasty assault deterrent ;-)


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## Haliphax (Mar 13, 2008)

Thats what I meant. They get hit by the minefield as though they moved through it. The rules when taken as-is were not written to include the idea that the minefield might fall on a unit. It really is something that needs clarification. The group I play with and myself included just don't feel that rule-lawyering and BSing about how mines work is conducive to actually furthering an already time-consuming game in a manner that still results in a good time.

Also, standing in a mine field. Just think about it.

Edit to respond to your edit:

With that rule in mind, I suppose you're right. You don't get hit for standing in the mine field, you get hit for moving in, over, or out of a mine field. Touche. I don't know why none of us ever considered that. So I suppose what would happen is when you attempted to EXIT the mine field, you would resolve hits.


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## FarseerNo3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Galahad said:


> No, that's just plain silly.
> Even if you did, the mines rule says they hit against rear armor, not "Hit against rear armor, unless you fly upside down, then it's totally front."
> 
> So you fly your upside down skimmers through a minefield and the mines explode against the flimsy glass canopy of your eldar hawk, which happens to have the same AV as your rear armor
> ...


go around phhft that takes up like a inch or 2 of movement


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Haliphax said:


> Edit to respond to your edit:
> 
> With that rule in mind, I suppose you're right. You don't get hit for standing in the mine field, you get hit for moving in, over, or out of a mine field. Touche. I don't know why none of us ever considered that. So I suppose what would happen is when you attempted to EXIT the mine field, you would resolve hits.


Yep. Rather than wounding models under the template you drop mines around them. If they stay still, they're fine...but they're also staying still, which is rarely a good thing in 40k. If they try and leave the field they take hits.

In fact, if they move at all, even to reposition or get back into coherency after shooting losses they take hits on the models that move.

That said, I still probably wouldn't try to argue if my opponent wanted to play it as everyone takes a S6 hit on 4+, even though that's not strictly how it works. It's just not worth making people think you're trying to cheat them.


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## FarseerNo3 (Mar 7, 2008)

what if it lands on swooping hawks and they use sky leap?


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## Damned Fist (Nov 2, 2007)

> In fact, if they move at all, even to reposition or get back into coherency after shooting losses they take hits on the models that move.


Actually, I believe that if any models in a unit move then All models in that unit are considered to be moving. Therefore, any model in that unit that is in the mine field would still 'trip' the mines even though they themselves have not moved. 



> what if it lands on swooping hawks and they use sky leap?


Is sky leap movement? ...,{yes, you reply.}..., then they also set off the mines.:biggrin:


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## Lucius Vane (Jan 21, 2008)

Galahad said:


> After all, if you wander into a minefield you only take the hit for moving into, out of or moving around inside of it. You can walk into the minefield, take your hits and then camp out inside it without taking a hit every turn...you could turn it into a nasty assault deterrent ;-)


This is a little nitpicky, but in the rule block, it only specefies that _enemy_ models moving through the mine field take hits. At least I think so, I haven't got the book in front of me at the moment. Do you think the designers intended for this to be how they functioned, or was it just a slip of the tongue... er type?


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## FarseerNo3 (Mar 7, 2008)

i like mines now even though there anoying for some of my army thats the point


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## Ubiquitous (Feb 17, 2008)

Yeah, it does say ENEMY models, so you can plop them around your gunline to make it hurt when they try to charge you.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Whoops, my bad. Good catch, guys.

Yeah, dropping mines on your own guys is a great way to deter charges


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