# Chaos gods: Do they have power beyond the galaxy?



## blackhole (Oct 8, 2010)

Basically the title. My question is, do the Chaos gods have power beyond the galaxy that 40k is set in? Or are they restricted to one galaxy only? This also raises the question do they have counterparts in the other galaxy's'?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Always wondered if that was true. I don't see why they wouldn't or why they would have that kind of restriction.


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## blackhole (Oct 8, 2010)

Well I'm not sure on this so I may be wrong, but doesn't the warp only extend through out the galaxy only?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The Warp is an alternate reality, nothing I know states that it only affects the Milky Way or is somehow constrained by the Galaxy's borders- I think it's in all universe but doesn't really have any affect on those areas that have little to no sentient life.


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## blackhole (Oct 8, 2010)

But we know that other galaxy's have life (or at least had it) thanks to the Tyranids no? So would that give the Chaos gods control of that area or does another set of gods rule there?


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

The warp lies as a parallel existence to the material plane. There probably is no mention of chaos beyond the galaxy, because there is no mention of _anything_ going on beyond the galaxy. In other words because chaos has no playthings outside of the milky way there's no reason for them to venture beyond the milky way.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

For all we know the Chaos Gods are a major part of every galaxy with psychically sensitive, sentient life- the Cabal (ref. Legion) states that humanity is Chaos' greatest tool but that might only be in this galaxy because the Cabal then go onto say that if humanity was destroyed then the Primordial Annihilator would be fatally weakened, which is something we know wouldn't happen as it's not just this reality that sustains the Chaos Powers (well if you hold to the theory as I do that the Fantasy world is in a parallel universe).

Maybe it's something like the anthromorphic creations in Terry Prachett's Discworld- the believers influence how the being appears to them, in this galaxy Khorne is a dog-faced, bronze clad superlative warrior but who's to say that in the Andromeda Galaxy he doesn't take on a completely different archtypal form. As CotE constantly tries to drum into the members of Heresy's heads- Chaos knows no restrictions, time and space have no meaning within the realm of the empyrean.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> (well if you hold to the theory as I do that the Fantasy world is in a parallel universe).


Bah, as I said before, they are as much a parallel universe as halo. Maybe if GW wanted to open that can of worms, not really because it wouldn't require much work, they could, but they said they aren't. At least that is what I am told.


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## WarMaster Sindr (Jun 23, 2010)

Hey look im gonna say that they thrive on anything that feels emtion so if their are races outside of the galaxy they might be there 

And dont forget the chaos gods wernt born but were begining to be when the Emperor came into existence but they feed on the souls of the shamans and shamans came togeatjer pooled pyshic power to creat oone being year later they all dead Emperor Born most power pyshic being in galaxy and immortal to ageing


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> Bah, as I said before, they are as much a parallel universe as halo. Maybe if GW wanted to open that can of worms, not really because it wouldn't require much work, they could, but they said they aren't. At least that is what I am told.


GW has said that the Fantasy world is not part of the 40k universe, ergo it must be in a different reality and I've not heard anything from GW poo-pooing that theory.


WarMaster Sindr said:


> Hey look im gonna say that they thrive on anything that feels emtion so if their are races outside of the galaxy they might be there
> 
> And dont forget the chaos gods wernt born but were begining to be when the Emperor came into existence but they feed on the souls of the shamans and shamans came togeatjer pooled pyshic power to creat oone being year later they all dead Emperor Born most power pyshic being in galaxy and immortal to ageing


Thank you for yet another nigh on incomprehensible post, this one is actually one of your more understandable contributions...not sure who 'they' are and why they're feeding on shaman souls, but hey it's you so that's not a surprise.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> GW has said that the Fantasy world is not part of the 40k universe, ergo it must be in a different reality and I've not heard anything from GW poo-pooing that theory.


Nothing confirming it either.... which means, until they get off their ass and say something, they aren't connected in any way.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

That's why it's a theory, it's a theory *I* hold to- now I know people listen to what I have to say on Heresy regarding fluff (too much in my opinion) but I'm sure I've not become so influential my theories have become fact


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> That's why it's a theory, it's a theory *I* hold to- now I know people listen to what I have to say on Heresy regarding fluff (too much in my opinion) but I'm sure I've not become so influential my theories have become fact


And every day I thank God for that .


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

I was thinking the other day 'what if the realm of chaos is the primary reality and the 40k universe and WFB world are two of many alternate realities?'. Glad to see my crazy ideas are not mine alone.

In a completely non-ass kiss way, I agree with the Baron on the other point as well. I would expect that the reach of the chaos god is theoretically unrestricted and any other galaxies would be touched by chaos, but the gods may not look the same or follow the same archetype (e.g. their version of Khorne might have a different name and might be the noble god of power and necessary murder as opposed to blood, war, hatred, etc).

I also believe that the conduit that draws the daemons in to the universe is the only real relevant proximity restrictor. So, if emotionless creatures like the Tyranids are the only thing in the galaxy I would suspect that chaos would not have a grip there.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Isn't it recieved in-universe that outside the galactic rim the warp becomes incredibly calm, to the point were warp-travel is almost impossible; also the Navigators are intensely afraid and will not go there unless forced?
I seems to me that, should the 4 Chaos gods be universe-wide, then it might be, as someone already pointed out, that they only make the warp turbulent in the areas where there is sentient life to make it worth their while actually manifesting. If Humanity would ever want to be able to travel extra-galactically then they'll have to invent an alternative to warp traval. The 'Nid strategy of gravity-bending-surfing seems interesting- although still incredibly slow for any thousand generations of Humans to survive the journey.
Another question- if the Emperor is becoming a god via Humanity's continued worship, then would he be able to be powerful in other galaxies, just like the Chaos gods? After all, if time and space don't matter to them, then fair-dos, eh? Actually, might the Emperor be something like Slaanesh- He mightn't be a god yet, but once he is he always _will have been_? I wonder what that would mean to the Imperium? That Lorgar was right and the Emperor was wrong? Could the Heresy have been started because the Empeor didn't recognise _his own_ nature? So sorry to veer so OT. Ignore my wild finger-spasms if you want.

GFP


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Nothing confirming it either.... which means, until they get off their ass and say something, they aren't connected in any way.





Baron Spikey said:


> That's why it's a theory, it's a theory *I* hold to- now I know people listen to what I have to say on Heresy regarding fluff (too much in my opinion) but I'm sure I've not become so influential my theories have become fact


It's a theory that i've always adhered to as well. Although not through your influence im afraid _Baron_, I would never admit to giving you any credit. 

You could also cite the fact that as the Tyranids are known to have travelled from (and consumed) other galaxies, and that they also utilise the warp in such travel, that the warp does in fact go unrestricted beyond the boundaries of the milky-way. Thus so does Chaos' influence.



Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Actually, might the Emperor be something like Slaanesh- He mightn't be a god yet, but once he is he always _will have been_?


I imagine many imcomprehensible statements like that would apply when/if he truly becomes a warp god.



Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Could the Heresy have been started because the Empeor didn't recognise _his own_ nature? So sorry to veer so OT. Ignore my wild finger-spasms if you want.


I think its safe to say that the Heresy erupted because the Emperor was an idiot... _The First Heretic_ is yet another Heresy novel which further goes to show this.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> You could also cite the fact that as the Tyranids are known to have travelled from (and consumed) other galaxies, and that they also utilise the warp in such travel, that the warp does in fact go unrestricted beyond the boundaries of the milky-way. Thus so does Chaos' influence.


But the tyranids are no longer cited anywhere as using warp travel are they? Current Codex states they use a bio vessel called the narvhal which creates gravity tunnels (or some such crap) to close rapidly on prey worlds. It`s described as being slower than warp travel, but infinitely more reliable. Come to think of it, off the top of my head I`m not aware of any source material that references the tyranids ever using warp travel to move between worlds. 

??? :read:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I think its safe to say that the Heresy erupted because the Emperor was an idiot... _The First Heretic_ is yet another Heresy novel which further goes to show this.


This fact remains constant. :biggrin:


OT: As for the Ruinous powers reach extending beyond the galaxy? Well, time and space are infinite, so there are potentially untold life sustaining galaxies out there. For all we know, the psyker trait exists there as well as anywhere else. 

However, if the systems of belief developed were so different, would the powers in question truly be the same gods at all? Khorne may represent pointless warfare in this region of space, but in a distant galaxy perhaps the dominant style of warfare is very different. The local war god there could be representative of courage and heroism, honour and fairplay. 

It`s a theory I have held on to, that somewhere out there there might be a galaxy that has given rise to "Control Gods." Gods of order and harmony, rather than chaos and discord. 

But that means little to us here, so I leave it in the realm of dreams, there to amuse me when I am not flaying or destroying my foes and scratching their cars. :crazy:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> ??? :read:


I believe that my naivety on Tyranid background has just shone through then, looks like the background has changed in the latest codex.


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## Daddysen (May 31, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> However, if the systems of belief developed were so different, would the powers in question truly be the same gods at all? Khorne may represent pointless warfare in this region of space, but in a distant galaxy perhaps the dominant style of warfare is very different. The local war god there could be representative of courage and heroism, honour and fairplay.
> 
> It`s a theory I have held on to, that somewhere out there there might be a galaxy that has given rise to "Control Gods." Gods of order and harmony, rather than chaos and discord.:


I like that Idea, In fact they should have Equal and Opposite Gods in this universe thats just how things are (or is that just a Law of Motion/physics)

anyway to answer they question " Do the Chaos Gods Have power beyond the galaxy? " Since Games workshop says that WHfantasy and 40k are completely separate and the 4 Chaos Gods are Identical in each. it would seem to suggest that they can exist between alternate Realities so I would think that they would also be able to Exist anywhere in this reality whether its a Solar system, Galaxy or Universe it would not matter.

Thats Just my opinion.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I think its safe to say that the Heresy erupted because the Emperor was an idiot... _The First Heretic_ is yet another Heresy novel which further goes to show this.


Yeah, it seems that in order to make the Heresy happening make more sense, the HH books are just making the Emp seem stupider and stupider. I mean, a few years ago before the HH series many of my friends who are 40K fans always had major Emperor man-crushes (I've never particularly liked him, I'm pretty sure he was the Indian in the Village People). Nowadays, whenever someone mentions the Emperor it's like: 'Oh, that douchebag...'

As for the chaos gods having power outside the galaxy, I don't see why not. If the warp is an alternate reality which mirrors the whole of our own (albeit in a really wack, abstract way) then it's safe to assume that chaos gods can influence much more than only one galaxy.


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## SnoopyChicken (Sep 23, 2010)

My own theory is that the 4 main gods of chaos we know dont exist out of the milky way but the warp does.

I think the immaterium is just some sort of psychic echo of sentience so the reason we cant travel outside the milky way is because theirs no sentient beings for millions of light years outside it. But if you could get to another galaxy filled with sentients then warp travel would be possible again.

In terms of the chaos gods I think their would be different chaos gods in different galaxies that would echo the emotions of that galaxies inhabitants


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## Ardias26 (Sep 26, 2008)

If you look in the chaos daemons codex it somtimes references that the chaos gods powers extend 'across the universes' (I think one reference states that nurgle spreads his plagues across different universes).

It would be kind of dumb to think that the most powerful of the warps inhabitants are restricted to a small part of existance, in all likelyhood they probably fight their 'great game' in other galaxies just like they do in the 40k one. In fact it wouldnt take a leap of logic to assume that the tyranids were somehow made by another extragalactic race to fight chaos seeing as it is so dangerous, of course if that was the case they obviously didnt take into account that they're creations would eat them afterwards.

So yeah, it would be consistant to assume they are all over the universe and beyond, as long as there are sentinent races feeling emotions then they wouldnt ever rly go hungary.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I'm going to say that it really depends on the extent of power the other galaxies have in terms of race/empire growth. Because the old ones are the oldest besides for the C'tan, I tend to think that other galaxies don't have powerful of societies as most of the races like the eldar and surviving races made by the old ones are for the most part accounted for and really don't have that much power. 

The birth of Slaanesh which is also is the key point in the galaxy where warp storms made the Imperium almost fall apart. The birth basically made chaos emerge into the galaxy. And that birth made so by the growth of the Eldar race. 

Unless the old ones aren't really the oldest race in the galaxy their predecessors are basically the strongest powers and their galaxies are more/have been effected by chaos.

Yet, we will probably never truly know, we can only assume or guess certain things.


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## Bhale (Oct 15, 2010)

If time has no meaning to them why should space. Of course they have sway outside the 40k universe. Slannesh probably blew up Cripton.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Bhale said:


> If time has no meaning to them why should space. Of course they have sway outside the 40k universe. Slannesh probably blew up Cripton.


Because they would need a warp rift to spread their influence through space.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> Because they would need a warp rift to spread their influence through space.


So who is to say they don't exist in other galaxies? You seem to be of the opinion that the only powerful civilisations are the ones created by the Old Ones, but 1) they're merely one of the oldest corporeal races in this galaxy, who's to say they don't have contemporaries in other galaxies?, and 2) humanity is a powerful civilisation and beyond some minor tampering with our extremely distant ancestors we've had no contact with the Old Ones.

I consider it entirely likely that there are races in other galaxies that reached a similar advancement as that of the Eldar or Necrontyr.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

wasnt i mentioned in mechanicum? that the star gods were worshipped in other galaxies but other beings so potentially whats to say the chaos gods cant have the same sort of radius of power. i know they are made of different stuff but they still have alot of power and come from a plain that can bend time and space so it quite possible they could do it universe-wide.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I`m not exactly sure how wide the c`tan`s influence was at their peak. They probably had the potential to move to other galaxies. Their technology allows them to navigate the stars incredibly fast without such risks of warp travel and relativity. 

Then again, there is more than likely star gods still living in incorporeal form in galaxies across the universe. The same mistakes made by the necrontyr could have been made anywhere else by anone else in the right circumstances, but until we receive more info we will have to assume that the star gods we know of stayed within the Milky Way. 

New codex may shed some more light on the c`tan story. 

...So we`ll probably never know... :cray:


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

im sure it wont be long before one of the fluff gods sets everyone straight about this.


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

GFP has been closest to the mark, as far as i can tell. the warp is a reflection of the 'emotional state' of the real universe. it is a dull and inanimate place with exactly the same dimensions as the mortal realm without uncontrolled emotions. it is emotions that create the eddies and currents that distort the warp, making faster than light travel possible and creating daemons and 'gods'. the Chaos Gods as we understand them are mere reflections of our universe's emotional state, they do not exist in other universes because we do not exist in other universes. though, as others have pointed out it seems logical to assume that other galaxies have their own, local versions of Chaos Gods, but as we know nothing about these we cannot say anything for certain.

the simple truth is that 40k is far more parochial than many of us would like it to be. everything about the game takes place within the the milkyway (with the exception of the origin of the Tyranids). the distances between our galaxy and even our closest neighbour, make any exploration simply untenable, even with the in-game mechanics of faster-than-light travel.

although we refer to them as 'gods' the Chaos deities are no such thing. they are just beings that are very alien to us. they are 'mortal'; they do have life spans; the current four dominant gods have not always been and it seems unlikely that they will continue to do so indefinitely. and the 'star gods' are the least godly of all the alien creatures that claim to be. they don't even have a decent explanation of where they get their 'power' from or in what form it appears. considering that up until they got in contact with the Necrontyr they had no way of interacting with material things, they seem to know an awful lot about it.

and as a final aside, the Warhammer World and the 40kiverse are clearly connected. the Skulltaker that fights along side the World Eaters, is the same Skulltaker that marches against the Old World. you couldn't get much more of an explicit connections than characters appearing in both. whether you like the idea or not is irrelevant, the two are connected.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

admiraldick said:


> GFP has been closest to the mark, as far as i can tell. the warp is a reflection of the 'emotional state' of the real universe. it is a dull and inanimate place with exactly the same dimensions as the mortal realm without uncontrolled emotions. it is emotions that create the eddies and currents that distort the warp, making faster than light travel possible and creating daemons and 'gods'. the Chaos Gods as we understand them are mere reflections of our universe's emotional state, they do not exist in other universes because we do not exist in other universes. though, as others have pointed out it seems logical to assume that other galaxies have their own, local versions of Chaos Gods, but as we know nothing about these we cannot say anything for certain.


Wait. When you say 'we' do you mean humanity? And did you mean to say the Chaos Gods are not present in other Galaxies or Universes?

If you meant it's because humanity is not present then I have to say- what a load of bollocks. 
Humanity is not the only race that Chaos feeds off nor were we the ones who created the turbulence in the Warp leading to their existence.



admiraldick said:


> and as a final aside, the Warhammer World and the 40kiverse are clearly connected. the Skulltaker that fights along side the World Eaters, is the same Skulltaker that marches against the Old World. you couldn't get much more of an explicit connections than characters appearing in both. whether you like the idea or not is irrelevant, the two are connected.


I also believe they're connected but as alternate realities, since GW have explicitly stated that Fantasy and 40K do not exist in the same universe (and the Warhammer Fantasy World is so obviously a variation of Earth).


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Given the power that the gods have accumulated in this galaxy, it is entirely possible that they could then exert some influence over a neighbouring galaxy, then beginning the process anew as knowledge of their existence spreads the belief in them. They could then feed on more emotion spawned from that/those galaxies as well, if they`re not already.

Assuming of course, that the tyranids left anything out there...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

admiraldick said:


> although we refer to them as 'gods' the Chaos deities are no such thing.


That of course depends entirely on your definition of the term. 

An extract from _The First Heretic_ is interesting in this regard:



Page 328:
It would have been easy to say that faith was it's own sustenance and that humanity always reached for religion; that almost every rediscovered human culture clung to their own belief in the infinite and the divine; and that here was a realm of prophecy - where beings with the power of gods had proved beyond doubt that they'd summoned the Lord of the Seventeenth Legion, shaping fate to make these events unfold. Whether they were benevolent creator gods from mythology or mere manifestations of mortal emotion was irrelevant. Here was the divine force in a galaxy of lost souls. On the edge of the physical universe, gods and mortals had finally met, and mankind would fall without their masters.




admiraldick said:


> they are just beings that are very alien to us. they are 'mortal'; they do have life spans; the current four dominant gods have not always been and it seems unlikely that they will continue to do so indefinitely.


Yet *at the same time* they are immortal, they are eternal and the current four dominant gods have always been.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yet *at the same time* they are immortal, they are eternal and the current four dominant gods have always been.


I would argue against this. The chaos gods did not exist before the emergence of sentient life, and even then had no real power until long after the war in heaven. 

Bear in mind that the eldar pantheon held sway for many millennia during the reign of the eldar empire, only when Slaanesh was born did the chaos gods become dominant. 

Without a doubt, they were strong, but they were opposed. Really the only reason they`re so powerful now is because there`s no real competition anymore. (one prankster and a pair of big green yobbos is not a real threat)


Therefore, it is my belief that the gods are not immortal. They were born, they _can_ die (at least in theory) and depend on sentient life to sustain themselves.


And before you say time is meaningless in the warp (yet again) answer me this:


If time does not flow in the warp, how can you apply a term like _immortal_ or _eternal_ to the gods? Both terms require a flow of time to be relevant. :read:


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> I also believe they're connected but as alternate realities, since GW have explicitly stated that Fantasy and 40K do not exist in the same universe (and the Warhammer Fantasy World is so obviously a variation of Earth).


They're simply on different levels of the tower. :laugh:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> I would argue against this. The chaos gods did not exist before the emergence of sentient life, and even then had no real power until long after the war in heaven.


The entire point is that even though the Chaos Gods are the sum of sentient life's emotion, and thus must have came into existence at a time when enough sentient life (with a strong enough connection to the warp) were present in the galaxy (during the war in heaven likely), at the same time they have always existed within the warp (even before the rise of the Old Ones) and also at the same time don't exist and have never existed at all.

The whole point is the inconceivability of the warp and chaos in general. We are not suppossed to understand the Chaos Gods, hence why we are told things like they are the manfiestations of mortal emotions (and thus would obviously only have come into existence post-war in heaven), but also that they are eternal, and yet at the same time have never existed at all. In a similar way the warp was once calm and serine (during the reign of the Old Ones) but at the same time chaos and the warp are the same thing and indivisible, thus chaos existed and the warp was a raging torrent during the reign of the Old Ones as well as being calm and easily accessible.

That is what im trying to get at, the warp is utterly beyond our comprehension. It cannot be reasoned via our material bias, we are bound by time and space, chaos isn't.



Serpion5 said:


> And before you say time is meaningless in the warp (yet again) answer me this:
> 
> If time does not flow in the warp, how can you apply a term like _immortal_ or _eternal_ to the gods? Both terms require a flow of time to be relevant. :read:


When I applied those terms to the Chaos Gods, I was trying to convey their inconceivability (as described above).

Whilst I said they are eternal (which is correct, considering they are without beginning or end and are ceaseless), I also acknowledged _dick_'s point that they are 'mortal' (because they do have life spans and came into being at a particular point in time), and I also recognise that they are neither because they don't exist and have never existed at all, and that they are a complete fabrication.

They are all three (eternal, mortal and a complete fabrication) at the same time.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

i know that Slannesh was created from the desires and hedonism of the Eldar and thus when he/she came into force it began the fall of the Eldar but what about the other three how did they actually come into existence or does no one know, just curious as it seems to me that thier power stretches far and wide


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

*Taking into account CotE's point that time is a bit insane in the warp:

I believe (correct me if I'm wrong), Khorne was the first* of the gods to fully awaken. Can't remember where I read/heard that from though.

I'd guess Nurgle would have been next*, followed by Tzeentch. It seems to me that despair, depression, fear(?) and all those other lovely things Nurgle stands for would have been more prevalent in the past*, rather than the elaborate planning, scheming and hope that Tzeentch likes. But that's just my take on it. 

Unlike Khorne I don't think it's ever stated whether Nurgle or Tzeentch awakened first*.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

hm would explain why Khorne and Slannesh dislike each other aside from the obvious the younger in my opinion seems to be on a par with the blood god power wise with murder closley linked to sex and drugs, violence the same and blood definatly the same just my opinion


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

I am going to take the position that the Chaos 'Gods' do not exist outside of the Milky Way, and that they are not mortal, immortal, or anything in between. They are incorporeal manifestations of the Milky Way's denizen sentient's emotions. Each 'God' is a concentration of collected emotion that has been psychically expressed enough by civilizations with a psychic in the Warp.

For all we know, in the Andromeda galaxy, their could be a civilization that feels emotions entirely beyond our comprehension as human beings (fluff-wise, anyway), so those emotions would collect and manifest there to produce a 'God'. This was how Slaanesh was 'born' as the collective sum of the Eldar's hedonism destroyed their civilization. This also proves that a concentration of emotions like this has effects on the Warp, a la the Eye of Terror, not that a entity was actually created.

For all we know, a 'God' could be 'growing' on the basis of the Imperium's zeal and faith, and completely unrelated from the Emperor. If humanity exists when they reach their psychic zenith, perhaps the faith in the Emperor over the thousands of years will concentrate itself and produce some unknown effect on the Warp.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> *Taking into account CotE's point that time is a bit insane in the warp:
> 
> I believe (correct me if I'm wrong), Khorne was the first* of the gods to fully awaken. Can't remember where I read/heard that from though.
> 
> ...


It goes Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh in awakenings and that's pretty much how it is in terms of consistent power as well.


gothik said:


> hm would explain why Khorne and Slannesh dislike each other aside from the obvious the younger in my opinion seems to be on a par with the blood god power wise with murder closley linked to sex and drugs, violence the same and blood definatly the same just my opinion


Slaanesh's power source will always wane before any of the other Gods, for when pleasure and self-indulgence has run it's course violence, despair, and change will remain.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> and that's pretty much how it is in terms of consistent power as well.


Perhaps, perhaps not. We don't really have any reference for the twists and turns of the Great Game, and often it is so complex that it is not so clear cut and straightforward.



Baron Spikey said:


> Slaanesh's power source will always wane before any of the other Gods, for when pleasure and self-indulgence has run it's course violence, despair, and change will remain.


Of course though, Slaanesh also draws power from violence, despair and change - through the excessive nature to which they are inevitably taken. There will always be considerable overlaps across the sources of the individual gods' power.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I just lay out the basics, I await you sir to actually detail the main thrust of the argument- what ho.


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> I just lay out the basics, I await you sir to actually detail the main thrust of the argument- what ho.


While you wait: size up mine.

Bottom of the last page.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> While you wait: size up mine.
> 
> Bottom of the last page.


I saw your argument but since I already stated my own point of view, and argued every point I believe in, I have nothing further to add in counter-argument.


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> Wait. When you say 'we' do you mean humanity? And did you mean to say the Chaos Gods are not present in other Galaxies or Universes?
> 
> If you meant it's because humanity is not present then I have to say- what a load of bollocks.


i think you are confusing several terms.

although the warp is not identical in its size and dimensions to real space, it can roughly be plotted, point for point, against it. that means that the warp 'extends' beyond the Milkyway.

Chaos is not the natural state of the Warp, naturally it is flat and featureless. when it is fed with emotion (amongst other things) it begins to deform (which is why its called the Warp). in the Milkway 'we' (the human race) given the name 'chaos' to the particular way that our area of the Warp is warped.

its perfectly possible that the Warp is deformed in other parts of the universe to correspond with life forms in other galaxies, and these deformities might even be comparable to the Milkway's Chaos, but it is otherwise completely unrelated, in exactly the same way that sentient life in both the Milkyway and neighbouring galaxy would be similar in some regards but otherswise completely unrelated.

v]That of course depends entirely on your definition of the term.[/quote]

it does indeed. but in the real world we wouldn't regard something so lacking in trascendency as a god. we might talk about Greek and Roman 'gods' (who are roughly comparable) but no one holds them particularly high regard these days.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yet *at the same time* they are immortal, they are eternal and the current four dominant gods have always been.


er... except that we can categorically pin point when Slaanesh was created.

time flows differently in the Warp, but that doesn't mean it doesn't flow at all. there are a number of occasions when GW has described the fact that the current big four have not always been. and Slaanesh is always described as the youngest; a concept that would be totally meaningless if they had 'always existed'.

they are not mortal in the same sense as us, but they do have beginnings and they do wax and wane in power.


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## SnoopyChicken (Sep 23, 2010)

admiraldick said:


> i think you are confusing several terms.
> 
> although the warp is not identical in its size and dimensions to real space, it can roughly be plotted, point for point, against it. that means that the warp 'extends' beyond the Milkyway.


Then why is warp travel outside the milkyway not possible? Or is it?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

admiraldick said:


> er... except that we can categorically pin point when Slaanesh was created.
> 
> time flows differently in the Warp, but that doesn't mean it doesn't flow at all. there are a number of occasions when GW has described the fact that the current big four have not always been. and Slaanesh is always described as the youngest; a concept that would be totally meaningless if they had 'always existed'.
> 
> they are not mortal in the same sense as us, but they do have beginnings and they do wax and wane in power.


Check the Chaos Daemons codex out, it cleary states (under the Birth of Slaanesh on page eight if memory serves) that when he is described as the youngest god and as being 'born' at the point of the Fall of the Eldar that it is strictly looking at things from a chronological and material viewpoint, which cannot easily or even accurately be applied to the empyrean. Within the warp, Slaanesh has always existed and yet has never existed. My previous post (stating that Chaos is 'mortal', eternal and a complete fabrication all at once) is justified in the lore.



admiraldick said:


> but in the real world we wouldn't regard something so lacking in trascendency as a god.


I imagine quite a few belief systems and individuals actually do. But even so, its just one set of definitions for the very ambiguous term of 'god'. If entities that maintained as much power and influence that the Chaos Gods have were actually real, I imagine many people would happily describe them as 'gods', and whose to say they would be wrong to do so?


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## Daddysen (May 31, 2010)

Bhale said:


> If time has no meaning to them why should space. Of course they have sway outside the 40k universe. Slannesh probably blew up Cripton.


Krypton. just letting you know how to spell it.


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