# Thoughts on the New Blood Angels



## Muffinman (Aug 31, 2009)

So i was at my local GW today and we were all looking through the new BA Codex with mixed emotions. When I saw it I was ecstatic because it actually makes them competitive and I've been playing them since before the pdf version (ever since I got into the hobby, obout 4-5 years ago.) Then there were the guys who were complaining saying it's the Daemon and Vampire equivalent in 40k and that the book should be burned because it's so overpowered. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to go into the actuall rules on the forum but I'll just say this, Mephistion is a cheaper version of the Swarmlord in a SM body, Some of the new charachter are just amazing, Deep striking Land Raiders, DC can have squads up to 30 men and are 0-1 troops unless u take astorath and they dont score, Lemartes has gone Apeshit and stuff is cheaper than the normal SM codex even though it does the same thing. So what do you guys think of the new book, is it extremely overpowered or is it just following the powercreep all the codexs have had over the last while?


----------



## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

The Blood Angels (When done in proper Codex and not a half assed white dwarf list) Have always been a fairly powerful army list right up until the whole rules set changes and leaves them outdated.
Some of the most overpowered lists I've faced (When taken in context of the amount of years I've been gaming) have been BA.
When hero hammer was the standard Mephiston was king as were most of the other characters and the black armour with red crosses were feared across any battle field.
Then came the era of the Rhino rush and having an army of close combat maniacs reach you on turn 1 with their blackrage, supercharged engine combo was demoralising to say the least(I once had only 2 squads of spacewolves left before I even had a turn in a 1500 pt match)
Then the rules changed again and the BA were neglected for a long time although the interim rules were quite poor they were still comparably with army lists produced at the time as GW went through a period of downgradeing its armies again which lasted all of 3 army books before they changed their minds again.
Know from what I've seen of the new list GW have just made them back into a top tier force again at least until they change the focus of the rules again and probably make them all but unplayable.


----------



## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Well, we'll know whether it's out and out powercreep or just specism once GW stops making nothing but Imperium/human/posthuman armies. 

As a complete thread hijack about something completely unrelated: is it trolling to call someone else a troll? Or is that an out and out flame?


----------



## Vet Sgt Ezekiel (May 8, 2009)

Personally i think it looks good from what i've seen online here and other sites like BoLS etc.

I'm not as concerned with the rules as i am the minis being more of the narrative sort as opposed to tourneys. They do look the part and after a bit of jiggery pokery and a decent paintjob i'll see what they're like on the table (months from now probably). 

Deep striking LR's sounds interesting ala Thunderhawk transporter? I'm interested to see how they explain it other than that. Hmmmmm... I've been looking for an excuse to save up for a Thunderhawk for some time.

The transport aircraft thats been mentioned also sounds good. i hope it comes out as a model sooner rather than later. Judging by the lack of follow up models for other recent races i'm not holding my breath.


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Bearing in mind that the "power creep" isn't actually as bad as it could be.

I postulate that the only really broken army right now is Nob bikers, everything else is perfectly beatable. Lash fails vs Mech, Nids can be handled fairly straightforwardly, despite their ridiculous units. Battlewagons fail vs Deep Strike/Turboing meltas etc etc. Space Wolves look good on paper but I've yet to see them win more than a couple of games. IG are frankly mediocre unless you're willing to spend shitloads of cash on models that are impossible to transport and cost ~£50 each.

The new BA codex sounds terribly overpowered, but then so did all of the above codicies.


----------



## EmbraCraig (Jan 19, 2009)

One thing I was thinking about today is what HQ choice BA are going to take at lower points values after the new 'dex.

Up to now, most armies up to 1500 pts would just take Lemartes - good value character, fills in your 1 compulsory HQ slot and keeps your Death Company in check.

Now that he's an upgrade character for the DC instead, and all of the other special characters sound like they're gonna be fairly high points cost options, is the standard choice just going to be a vanilla chaplain with JP? Maybe a nicely decked out company captain?


----------



## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

I dont think there is a huge powercreep in the 40k Codices atm. Its ofcourse always full 1nt3rw3bz whining going on for a new Codex, but I think all released 5th ed codices are on a good level with eachother so far:good:


----------



## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

It's always good to see more plastic product and some of the stuff look quite cool. I'll be interested to see this flying raider thingy. One thing I am not sure on is Mephiston. His stats seem pretty wild for the price. Whats everyone elses thoughts on him. Unstoppable powerhouse or not as bad ass his stats/abilities/powers would suggest. Hopefully I will get a chance to view the full BA Codex at some stage and have a better appreciation of BA's.


----------



## Dallas_Drake (Jan 26, 2009)

The question I hope we can answer 'yes' to, is this; are jump pack armies once again an option?

I mean, Jump Pack Assault Troops look so amazing, but they've been a bit of a lemon for BA since the PDF. It would be nice to see those lovely Assault Marine/Death Company models not stuck in Rhinos forever.

Maybe making Land Raiders Deep Striking & Baals & Vindicators 'fast' was part of that move? To allow target threat/saturation & distractions away from those often unprotected jump packing troops?

Dallas


----------



## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

I saw some of the new models and began to dribble, and although I often find on forums people complaining "the shiled looks stupid" or "I don't like his helmet" I always think to myself, CAN YOU DO ANY BETTER? NO? THEN SHUT THE HELL UP.

Aside from that, the new models look really cool, I need an excuse to make some of those Sanguinary Guard (I think that's right) into Chaos Raptors or Chosen or the like...but I can't see that happening...aww.....


----------



## The Thunder of KayVaan (Jun 19, 2009)

Darvaleth im right with you there except making them into my honour guards!

on a proper note: those Sanguinary Guard just look like a can of woop-ass. And they come out a month before my birthday.

it just keeps getting better...


----------



## Phil73805 (Feb 28, 2010)

Oh dear, I've been dreading these threads. I used to play Blood Angels until they dumped the codex and have since donned my wolfskin cloak and built a Space Wolves army. Here's the problem...I really love the Blood Angels! I'm going to have to avoid any picture threads and I must *not* buy the codex! If I do I'm going end up remortgaging a kidney and buying an army.


----------



## Skull Harvester (Mar 7, 2010)

Yet to read the codex (hoping to friday), but I love the models. They are making the decision for me even harder, now its more so Iron Warriors vs Blood Angels (with Night Lords sort of being there). Astorath looks great, everything with gold armor looks great, the only thing for me is the generic troops just look so bland compared to the rest of the army. Not the Death Company, the basic marines. . . I'm still trying to concoct a way to make them look more unique some how. 

I was thinking of doing a Blood Angels offshoot, like Flesh Tearers or something to make them a bit more interesting. . . or make my own.

Overall though, cosmetically, thumbs way the fuck up k:


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

I have to say that Flesh Tearer chapter master might just become my new wolf lord. It might take a bit of work to file off all the blood drops and other iconography, but what the hell. I think I'll be getting my hands on some of those sanguinary guard weapons as well. They look the business.


----------



## Skull Harvester (Mar 7, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> I have to say that Flesh Tearer chapter master might just become my new wolf lord. It might take a bit of work to file off all the blood drops and other iconography, but what the hell. I think I'll be getting my hands on some of those sanguinary guard weapons as well. They look the business.


Wait who is the Flesh Tearer Chapter Master? I think I missed that one


----------



## Skull Harvester (Mar 7, 2010)

Nevermind I'm an idiot. . . haha


----------



## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

Having looked through the codex myself I have a couple of gripes with it, but overall I don't think it's _that_ bad... I've been upset with 3 of the last 4 codecies which have been released, there certainly seems to be a trend towards ading as many special rules to each unit as they can fit on a page...

My biggest gripe with the BA 'dex is most of their named heroes seem quite ridiculous - A certain character is deployed & you name an opposing IC who then suffers a -1 to certain statistics (including wounds)... WTF is that? It's not while fighting this character - it's for the duration of the battle. I've chosen to deploy XXXX, yeah - your warboss? -1 wound for the whole battle just 'cuz I'm scary...

Mephiston is a joke (but from what I understand he always has been...). So overcoming the black rage makes him the most powerful psyker in the known universe? Really? Compared to spending 10 millenia LIVING in the warp that's like overcoming tourettes... How can you really justify a librarian being S & T 6? Sure he's 250 points, but in comparison Abaddon is 265 (I think...) and he's still only S & T 4 and doesn't come with any of the fancy psychic powers. Fuck, compare him to Ahriman of the TSons & He's a beast - again, Ahriman was winning wars before Mephiston was a glimmer in his father's eye...

Then there's the character with Artificer armour & the FNP on a 2+... really? Does he need a 2+/2+ save against non Power weapons?

Other than their characters though my only real complaint is that I think the death company are underpriced. For the same statline as a berserker they come with the additional rules of relentles, feel no pain and of course rage - Oh, and they're cheaper... And frankly the tradeoff of rage doesn't justify the discrepancy. They will be played the exact same way that 'zerkers are. Kept in a transport until a juicy target is available & then dumped out to savage it basically keeping their rage in check until they're ready to engage the target their supposed to.

All in all I don't think the book is bad, I just think that again the characters are a little over the top just like the last two books and it bothers me to see a return to the armies with many special rules; as was mentioned, how many armies were ruined (or at least made bland and boring) in the interest of simplification only to see a return to the selfsame overabundance of special rules they were trying to move away from?


----------



## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Purely from a modelling perspective, i really like the new stuff. The wings are a bit much for me, but the rest of the stuff looks killer.



> I have to say that Flesh Tearer chapter master might just become my new wolf lord. It might take a bit of work to file off all the blood drops and other iconography, but what the hell.


I'm thinking of doing the same for a salamanders mod, purely for the 2 handed chainsword.

The thunder hammer from the DC box and the predator fire death kit are also going to be on my shopping list.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I would still take the Chaos Dex 3.5 to most of these current Power mad Dexes coming out to friendly games .


----------



## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> I would still take the Chaos Dex 3.5 to most of these current Power mad Dexes coming out to friendly games .


But you can't do that! It's too complicated what with all of those special rules confusing your opponents! 40K must be simple![/sarcasm]


----------



## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

MaidenManiac said:


> I dont think there is a huge powercreep in the 40k Codices atm. Its ofcourse always full 1nt3rw3bz whining going on for a new Codex, but I think all released 5th ed codices are on a good level with eachother so far:good:


I agree to a certain extent. 

The biggest problem in my opinion seems to be the older codex that don't mesh well with the new. 

Certain unit's are utter crap that weren't before, certain ones are over powered and some even have abilities that do nothing but still cost the same points (assassins anyone?). 

I think the 5th edition codex should have been built more with this in mind, or just for GW to quicken updating the books. So far, they are doing alright at it this year.


----------



## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

clever handle said:


> Mephiston is a joke (but from what I understand he always has been...). So overcoming the black rage makes him the most powerful psyker in the known universe? Really? Compared to spending 10 millenia LIVING in the warp that's like overcoming tourettes... How can you really justify a librarian being S & T 6? Sure he's 250 points, but in comparison Abaddon is 265 (I think...) and he's still only S & T 4 and doesn't come with any of the fancy psychic powers. Fuck, compare him to Ahriman of the TSons & He's a beast - again, Ahriman was winning wars before Mephiston was a glimmer in his father's eye...


WHAT THE ZOG!?!? S6 and T6?? and for only 25 more points then the PDFdex? and I thought the old Mephiston was OP. If he really does share the Swarmlord's full statline then thats just retarded.


----------



## Chaplain Gaius (Mar 11, 2010)

I hear he can't join any squads though and he doesnt have eternal warrior. so hes going to get slagged rather quickly


----------



## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Arcane said:


> I agree to a certain extent.
> 
> The biggest problem in my opinion seems to be the older codex that don't mesh well with the new.
> 
> ...


I honestly hope that GW wont give fuck all about older Codices when making the new ones, but instead keep up the pace on the great trail they follow now.

If they "mind the craptastic things from the past", written in the dark age of nerfed lists aka 3d and 4th, nothing will change at all, or at least it would take ages for any real change. Old (aka previous ed books) Codices generally gets fisted, and in rare cases blessed, by new editions of the rules and thats just how it will have to be. This is the "slag product" of keeping older ed of the game lists playable. The other solution would be like between RT and 2nd, or 2nd and 3rd where all armies were "reset" and given a temporary 1 page armylist which quite frankly would suck donkeyballz :hang1:

I know it sucks playing older books in some cases. This is said from a Tau players pov, a Codex at least 60% filled with unusable units. Sadly there aint no "better" way to take...
Id much rather ride out the storm and get a Codex as living as the other 5th ed Codices then one that has taken 5 steps backwards to the crap level that used to be standard in 3rd/4th :cray:


----------



## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

Chaplain Gaius said:


> I hear he can't join any squads though and he doesnt have eternal warrior. so hes going to get slagged rather quickly


T6 is as good as Eternal Warrior vs Orks, and anyone else without a instant death weapons (Necrons, Tau, Dark Eldar, etc).

As far as Shooting him to death, good luck with that unless you have alot of AP2 weapons cause hes got 2+ save and FNP.


----------



## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Mephiston only has an armour save though. He will fall pretty quickly to any type of anti MC firepower. That's where abbaddon ups him I believe. abbaddon can dish out a lot of pain and in return take it, mephiston not so much on the return. that's his downfall... 

Overall I'm really liking the new codex a lot. I haven't had a great look at the rules but Frm what I remember all those shiny "overpowered" things cost an arm and a tentacle (not quite a leg's cost) so it's not really over powered. Same as with the wolves codex. I heard so many people scream bloody murder at that but I didn't find it too bad.. 

The models rally do it too..... They look the tits!


----------



## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

so he lost FNP? well thats good atlest


----------



## gunslinger107 (Mar 12, 2010)

I hope that GW is genuinely trying to put an end to codex creep. I find it to be just plain annoying. Not only that, but it sucks playing a match and losing simply because your opponent's codex is overpowered.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

clever handle said:


> But you can't do that! It's too complicated what with all of those special rules confusing your opponents! 40K must be simple![/sarcasm]


"What do you mean Your Oblits are Elite Choice now? What! Your Dreadnaught now has Sonic Weapons!!! OMG! Mark of Tzeentch means no Psy Tests! Nonono, thats game breaking man, your going to use your Lash Princes with PMs or no game at all." :laugh:


----------



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> I saw some of the new models and began to dribble, and although I often find on forums people complaining "the shiled looks stupid" or "I don't like his helmet" I always think to myself, CAN YOU DO ANY BETTER? NO? THEN SHUT THE HELL UP.


I'm gonna risk taking this off topic a little because I just have to address this glaringly bad logic.

For a start: This is an extremely conversion-friendly hobby. Chances are, a lot of the people complaining CAN do better.

That aside: Just because someone can;t do better doesn't mean they're not allowed to complain when someone they've (basically) paid to do a good job fucks it up.

I can't design a new car from scratch, but I'm allowed to complain when the wheels fall off. You don't take it to the dealership and have the salesman say "WELL, CAN YOU DO BETTER?! NO? THEN SHUT THE HELL UP!"

I'm sorry, but the whole "If you can't do a better job than a trained professional you have no right to complain" line of logic just pisses me off. I may not be able to write, direct, shoot and act in a film any better than the folks who did Twilight, but that doesn't mean I have to bow down and throw my money at them. If I don't like it, I'm gonna complain and spend my money elsewhere.

If GW makes a mini I don't like, I'm gonna complain(like the piece of shit original lemartes model) and not buy it, building my own instead. If enough of us complain and fail to buy it, they'll make a new one that doesn't suck.Like they just did. If everyone just said "Well, I can't do any better" we'd never end up getting cooler models.

<cough>
Alright, back on topic. 

Uh...I got nothin.


----------



## dobbins (Sep 19, 2009)

My thought is that there is going to be far too many new blood angles armies kicking about now. How many people jumped ship when Space Wolves came out? Same thing will happen now. It almost makes me like the smurfs because they've never been cool and smurf players put up with more shit for playing them than any other marine army.

N.B. New models look sweet though:biggrin:... except the gold ones


----------



## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

dobbins said:


> My thought is that there is going to be far too many new blood angles armies kicking about now. How many people jumped ship when Space Wolves came out? Same thing will happen now. It almost makes me like the smurfs because they've never been cool and smurf players put up with more shit for playing them than any other marine army.
> 
> N.B. New models look sweet though:biggrin:... except the gold ones which look gayer than Elton John.


Well, you can always paint them in leather tones instead, if you like bears instead of fruits. :shrug:

Heck, us the crest of Thebes for their standard instead of the stanard BA banners and if anyone suggests that your models might prefer aesthetically dangly bits rather than aesthetically curvy bits you can just tell him explain to him in loving detail why that makes them terrifically more baddass. Theres actually a history lesson in that one. When Phillip of Mecedon (with Alex in tow, natch) routed the combined Hellenian armies, the Sacred Band of Thebes was annihilated in an utterly futile but totally epic manner. But I suspect I bore the lot of you. Wiki up the battles of Leuctra and Chaeronea. And then give your honor guard chaps. Wait, what?

There's a certain element of creep, but also there's just the changing ruleset and the hosing it yields. I'm not upset about the power-level change as the "hay guyz, we wanted to give out toys to this one army, so we gave them toys that should have gone in a completely different codex that won't be released for 3 more years" stuff. I mean, skimmers with av 12 all the way around that can deepstrike and that troops can assault out of right then? Seriously?
That's supposed to be not allowed within the framework of what game designers make. Races who have had tons of documented use of their skimmers like passenger planes don't get that. And yet here we see braaaand new fluff giving it to someone else. It's rather moronic. I wish they'd reinforced the existing themes of the BA rather than making up a bunch of total BS to add on.


But I'll stop hating. It's cool that BA players, Flesh Tearers players and Khorne players now have a list. Hopefull they'll do cult-specific lists for Tzeench, Slaanesh and Nurgle at some point too.


----------



## dobbins (Sep 19, 2009)

*Took gay bit out as I don't want to incur the wrath of the moderator now do I. 

P.S. they do look rubbish though

P.P.S I have no problem with gays, just can't shake insults from my school days (hey that rhymes)


----------



## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Cyklown said:


> There's a certain element of creep, but also there's just the changing ruleset and the hosing it yields. I'm not upset about the power-level change as the "hay guyz, we wanted to give out toys to this one army, so we gave them toys that should have gone in a completely different codex that won't be released for 3 more years" stuff. I mean, skimmers with av 12 all the way around that can deepstrike and that troops can assault out of right then? Seriously?
> That's supposed to be not allowed within the framework of what game designers make. Races who have had tons of documented use of their skimmers like passenger planes don't get that. And yet here we see braaaand new fluff giving it to someone else. It's rather moronic. I wish they'd reinforced the existing themes of the BA rather than making up a bunch of total BS to add on.


I have to agree here.

The game plays well when things are balanced and people can use similar tactics for a majority of games.

However, when GW starts bringing new things into the metagame (JotWW, Doom of Malan'tai, Lash, 12/12/12 assault vehicle skimmers, etc), it starts to take the fun out of the game.

Someone might build a well rounded list to take on 90% of all armies out there, but when somebody fields something that has such a large and previously unheard of ability, it can completely ruin the game for the person with the rounded list.

I know what you are all thinking... "Build your list to counter it", "Destroy it", etc.
Problem is, when something like this messes with the whole mechanics of the game, there is literally NOTHING that the opponent can do about it.

Being able to deep strike a skimmer, disembark blood-crazed CC specialists, and have them assault in the SAME turn, there is literally NOTHING that the opponent can do about it.

Sure, the ability might not be worth the points, but it will still cause havoc for a lot of armies.

Basically all it is there for is to make GW money when all the kiddies see the codex for the first time and think "OMG OMG I WANT 3 OF THEM!!!", but at the end of the day its the opponents that have to suffer when their whole strategy is useless and there is nothing they can do about it.

GW can still make units that shock and impress while still laying within the mechanics of the game, but the further they go from the mechanics the more shock and impress the unit will get, and therefor more sales.
There is a fine line, and sadly i think that GW is starting to cross this line, all for a couple of extra bucks.


----------



## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

I personally disagree with that. Playing with the PDF codex for BA, which many people find to be a less competitive codex than the last few (chaos upwards we'll say) I can take out wolves, nids, daemons, tau, eldar, other marines, orks, basically everything that my local area plays. the new things are big and shiny but remember all the hype about SM's with 3+ inv. saves for their terminators? they were gonna be the be all end all of warhammer and they have sucked in tourneys. this thing will have a few weeks of "OMG what do I do??" but sooner or later they will be countered and made close to useless... everything in the game can be fought. it's just a matter of finding out how....


----------



## FatBoyFat (Feb 23, 2009)

I was talking to the fella in GW today about the new codex, and well.. they do sound a little op, but I think from what he said, that most of the new squads are over 200 points just for 5 models! that a swarm army should be able to just swamp them pretty easily.


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Cyklown said:


> Hopefull they'll do cult-specific lists for Tzeench, Slaanesh and Nurgle at some point too.


Yeah, they're called the "Blood Raven", "White Scars" and "Imperial Fist" codicies... :laugh:


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Cyklown said:


> But I'll stop hating. It's cool that BA players, Flesh Tearers players and Khorne players now have a list. Hopefull they'll do cult-specific lists for Tzeench, Slaanesh and Nurgle at some point too.


I was thinking Night Lords and Soul Drinkers myself. Soul Drinkers definatly :grin:.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I'm willing to put my integrity (what remains) on the line and say GW will *never *do a Soul Drinkers Codex, they're barely mentioned in any where except the novels- maybe, maybe there'll be WD article with unofficial rules but the chances of a Blood Raven Codex (almost not going to happen) are higher than a SD one.


----------



## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> I'm willing to put my integrity (what remains) on the line and say GW will *never *do a Soul Drinkers Codex, they're barely mentioned in any where except the novels- maybe, maybe there'll be WD article with unofficial rules but the chances of a Blood Raven Codex (almost not going to happen) are higher than a SD one.


We're not talking about real codices, we're talking counts-as codices. This being the new Khorne cult codice is a joke that's been bandied about for a while (it was said about spacepuppies too. It's a resilient meme.). The idea is that if you can't make a competitive themed list with the list you were given, and another codex can play the way you want to while still being competitive then you should go ahead a play it.


----------



## Lash Machine (Nov 28, 2008)

Against an army with a number of deepstriking assault vehicles which can have the contents assault it would be best played against as if it were a drop pod army. Keep your army in reserve and let them go first. Another problem they will encounter is that they need to open the troops from their transports and although it can be given a twin linked multi melta I believe, it does not mean that that on it's own will be able to get the contents into charge range even if it does destroy the transport.

A deepstriking Landraider is quite curious but if it drops close to your army you should have a couple of melta weapons close to deal with it. It almost seems a bit silly to deepstrike a landraider as you are for going it's usefulness in shooting but I can see the point of dropping it on an objective with a scoring unit inside.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> I'm willing to put my integrity (what remains) on the line and say GW will *never *do a Soul Drinkers Codex, they're barely mentioned in any where except the novels- maybe, maybe there'll be WD article with unofficial rules but the chances of a Blood Raven Codex (almost not going to happen) are higher than a SD one.



Oh no, no no. I meant using BAs Dex and rules to make a Fluffy Soul Drinker army. It fits their fluff and prffession perfectly. :wink:


----------

