# How large the Dark Angels and White Scars do you think?



## Rotundus (Dec 25, 2015)

Also, are you thinking that Blood Angels number can be amended in future Forge World book(according to Forge World, tentatively book 8)? How about your opinion?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

So you mean during the Great Crusade or 40k? Because 40k both are pretty adherent to the codex and number the standard 1000. The Blood Angels were listed as 100,000 strong in Fear to Tread. Not certain, but fairly sure the White Scars are fairly average, 80,000 - 100,000 range.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Thought the Scars was one of the smallest legions? Heard some blabber about a mere 7k marines.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The warhammer wiki says that, but provides no source as usual. I've never read in any of the official material anything about their size. Ilya Ravelion in _Scars_, amongst other things or trying to find out their size, but their organisation just makes it impossible. There's no reason they should be small though.


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## Gorthol (Dec 16, 2015)

Wow only 7k marines of the White scars? I don't believe that; if you could find a source for that number it'd be interesting, possibly my least favourite legion personally but that is interesting.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> So you mean during the Great Crusade or 40k? Because 40k both are pretty adherent to the codex and number the standard 1000. The Blood Angels were listed as 100,000 strong in Fear to Tread. Not certain, but fairly sure the White Scars are fairly average, 80,000 - 100,000 range.


I thought the BAs were 120,000 and knocked down to 100,000 after the Traitor's trap?


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## Rotundus (Dec 25, 2015)

Angel of Blood said:


> So you mean during the Great Crusade or 40k? Because 40k both are pretty adherent to the codex and number the standard 1000. The Blood Angels were listed as 100,000 strong in Fear to Tread. Not certain, but fairly sure the White Scars are fairly average, 80,000 - 100,000 range.


Great Crusade, of course. See the Forge World mention. And I think Vth Legion has to be rather large(I personally conjecture between 150,000 to 200,000), just similar way as the Alpha Legion, especially considering this intriguing tidbit...



> Documentary evidence attests that the IVth Legion gene-seed showed an above-average adaptability and rates of implant rejection were notably low, particularly in comparison with difficulties in large scale implantation encountered with other Progenoid types, which would not be eliminated until the acquisition of the gene-labs of Luna. This advantage meant that the IVth Legion's fighting strength was built rapidly, expanding to several fully battle-ready battalions in size while some of the other nascent Legions were still yet unable to field more than an active century. This in turn meant that the IVth Legion was very swiftly put to active-service alongside the Ist and Vth Legions.


Also, as fare as I know, "fairly average" Legion size means 100,000 to 130,000. And above 150,000 is deemed as "mid-high" range, whilst 80,000 to 100,000 is definitely below average to the smallest. 

Finally, I guess it is very probable that Dark Angels are one of largest, if not largest, Legions, even after infamous Rangdan Xenocide.



hailene said:


> I thought the BAs were 120,000 and knocked down to 100,000 after the Traitor's trap?


I speculate it can be very much reshuffled in the next Forge World installment. Because that 120,000 number seems, apparently, did not include or reckon other handful of Blood Angels elements and detachments spread(or stranded) across galaxy after all.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yeah sorry Fear to Tread does say 120,000. And that's meant to be their entire Legion. But obviously others are still scattered about, such as the guys on Molech. They shouldn't amount to a huge amount though. But yeah, the FW book they appear in will no doubt bump it up. 

Dark Angels were meant to be huge until the Xenocide, dropped down to the average or lower for sure, but then Luther did streamline and improve training and recruitment so much that who knows how big.

The V legion are pretty scattered as well due to their style and organisation. I imagine they will be above the average when revealed in the FW books.


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## Rotundus (Dec 25, 2015)

Angel of Blood said:


> Yeah sorry Fear to Tread does say 120,000. And that's meant to be their entire Legion. But obviously others are still scattered about, such as the guys on Molech. They shouldn't amount to a huge amount though. But yeah, the FW book they appear in will no doubt bump it up.
> 
> Dark Angels were meant to be huge until the Xenocide, dropped down to the average or lower for sure, but then Luther did streamline and improve training and recruitment so much that who knows how big.
> 
> The V legion are pretty scattered as well due to their style and organisation. I imagine they will be above the average when revealed in the FW books.


I reread Fear to Tread and yeah, it seems author really meant 120,000 as whole. However obviously "others" are still scattered across galaxy and of course, more importantly, FW tends to bump up already tenfold Legion size. Hell, even Ultramarines have been bumped up. Hitherto poor Fists are sole exception. After release of the Crimson Fists, they get not bumped at all. It seems that Alan Bligh and other members have decided keeping Fists as small as possible while routinely massacring them time and again. 

Although yeah, I agree their amount will not be huge. According to new and fresh lore they have always been one of the most genetically unstable Legions after all and I doubt there recruitment pool would be extensive enough to expand them one of the larger Legions(they have only three secondary recruitment worlds). 

No, in Xenocide they had lost only 50,000, and still huge. It seems even after Xenocide, only Ultramarines and possibly several of other largest Legions outnumbered them. And in the Wolf King, Dark Angels commander explicitly states they are larger and more powerful than any period...so yeah, we can vaguely guess their number. And who knows how many recruitment worlds and outposts they doubtlessly have in the galactic fringes and void beyond? 

So now you have changed your mind and also consider WS will be revealed to have 150,000+ legionaries? As a side note, in 30k, they now even rule private interstellar empire of the Kolrarne Circle, just as the Iron Warriors do in the Meratara Cluster or Ultramarines do in Ultramar.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Not so much changed my mind, just FW always hikes the numbers up with each successive book. 

Also the White Scars gene-seed is quite stable with little to no mutations. So there's no reason why they shouldn't have a large recruitment pool.


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## Rotundus (Dec 25, 2015)

Angel of Blood said:


> Not so much changed my mind, just FW always hikes the numbers up with each successive book.
> 
> Also the White Scars gene-seed is quite stable with little to no mutations. So there's no reason why they shouldn't have a large recruitment pool.


Umm...yes? I'm a little confused with what are you indicating. Would you mind if I ask to you elaboration? 

Also, how the hell gene seed stability could be associated with size and range of recruitment pool? I mean, former is related with easiness of gene seed implant and/or replication, while latter is related with size potential population base and/or number of recruitment worlds. Two are completely and utterly irrelevant extrinsic factors.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Rotundus said:


> Umm...yes? I'm a little confused with what are you indicating. Would you mind if I ask to you elaboration?
> 
> Also, how the hell gene seed stability could be associated with size and range of recruitment pool? I mean, former is related with easiness of gene seed implant and/or replication, while latter is related with size potential population base and/or number of recruitment worlds. Two are completely and utterly irrelevant extrinsic factors.


Elaborate on which part? 

I seem to have misinterpreted you talking about the Blood Angels instability, thinking you meant the White Scars. You seemed to have cited the Blood Angels instability for their size. But the more stable and mutation free the gene seed is, the higher the chance of successfully implanting it into a marine will be. With instability comes risks, flaws that need to be watched out for, chance of rejection by the host. Without all these, you can recruit a lot more aspirants and speed up the process much more. Or so I would imagine. You can have a huge recruitment pool. But if your gene seed is unreliable as hell, you aren't going to punch out the same volume as you could if it was stable. And as of the Great Crusade era the Scars were still being supplied with their share of recruits from Terra as well as Chogoris, the latter not having been noted as scare in aspirants. I imagine it would be quite plentiful in fact.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Also the White Scars gene-seed is quite stable with little to no mutations. So there's no reason why they shouldn't have a large recruitment pool.


Small wandering tribes means a--relatively--small pool of aspirants to draw upon.

We see in _Scars_ that some minority is drawn from Terra, but it seems most of the men come from Chorgoris. 

I don't see the White Scars being one of the larger legions, personally.


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## Rotundus (Dec 25, 2015)

Angel of Blood said:


> Elaborate on which part?
> 
> I seem to have misinterpreted you talking about the Blood Angels instability, thinking you meant the White Scars. You seemed to have cited the Blood Angels instability for their size. But the more stable and mutation free the gene seed is, the higher the chance of successfully implanting it into a marine will be. With instability comes risks, flaws that need to be watched out for, chance of rejection by the host. Without all these, you can recruit a lot more aspirants and speed up the process much more. Or so I would imagine. You can have a huge recruitment pool. But if your gene seed is unreliable as hell, you aren't going to punch out the same volume as you could if it was stable. And as of the Great Crusade era the Scars were still being supplied with their share of recruits from Terra as well as Chogoris, the latter not having been noted as scare in aspirants. I imagine it would be quite plentiful in fact.


Elaboration of below quote;



> Not so much changed my mind, just FW always hikes the numbers up with each successive book.



I have solely and exclusively meant White Scars.



hailene said:


> Small wandering tribes means a--relatively--small pool of aspirants to draw upon.
> 
> We see in _Scars_ that some minority is drawn from Terra, but it seems most of the men come from Chorgoris.
> 
> I don't see the White Scars being one of the larger legions, personally.


If they are only recruiting from the Empty Quarter and somehow wholesale neglecting other densely populated regions of Chogoris. 

Furthermore, according to new FW lore, they now rule their own interstellar empire -- Kolarne Circle/Cluster.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Rotundus said:


> Elaboration of below quote;
> If they are only recruiting from the Empty Quarter and somehow wholesale neglecting other densely populated regions of Chogoris.
> 
> Furthermore, according to new FW lore, they now rule their own interstellar empire -- Kolarne Circle/Cluster.


Which densely populated regions of the planet? Surely not the weak city folk? I assumed they primarily recruit from the nomadic tribes.

And according to _Scars_ the White Scars were moving towards only recruiting from Chogoris.


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## Rotundus (Dec 25, 2015)

hailene said:


> Which densely populated regions of the planet? Surely not the weak city folk? I assumed they primarily recruit from the nomadic tribes.
> 
> And according to _Scars_ the White Scars were moving towards only recruiting from Chogoris.


Yeah, however FW stuffs are prone to subvert, modify, rectify or change previously established BL lore. And Legion recruitment pattern is just one of many.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Rotundus said:


> Yeah, however FW stuffs are prone to subvert, modify, rectify or change previously established BL lore. And Legion recruitment pattern is just one of many.


Assuming that it did, could you cite where they primarily recruit from a wide span of planets?


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> Dark Angels were meant to be huge until the Xenocide, dropped down to the average or lower for sure, but then Luther did streamline and improve training and recruitment so much that who knows how big.


In _Wolf King_ there is apparently the makings of a whole other DA legion hiding out in the Alaxess Nebula, raised and sent there by Luther on the orders of the Lion. They are the ones that rescue the Wolves from the AL.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yeah read it too. Can't really comment on Dark Angel numbers now, no idea of who is on Luthers side, who is on the Lions, who is on one of theirs but doesn't know why etc etc etc. 

Sigh.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

hailene said:


> Small wandering tribes means a--relatively--small pool of aspirants to draw upon.
> 
> We see in _Scars_ that some minority is drawn from Terra, but it seems most of the men come from Chorgoris.
> 
> I don't see the White Scars being one of the larger legions, personally.


Recruiting from Chogoris does not mean only recruting nomads

EDIT: I see someone has raised that point.

The sedentary peoples might produce a lower ratio of tough specimens...but the sedentary people's are likely much more numerous


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> Recruiting from Chogoris does not mean only recruting nomads


Has there ever been a reference to a Chogorian White Scar that _wasn't_ originally a nomad? Even once?

From any time, 30k-40k.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

I'm not sure that's the best indicator, since none of the novels I've read thus far (not many, I admit) have talked about a marine's life before he became an astartes, so I assume it's not that common. Even if no White Scar from any novel ever published has expressed a background besides being a nomad on Chogoris, there are countless White Scars whose backgrounds we just don't know. 

Also, characterization in Black Library works is astoundingly formulaic. All but a few characters could easily be swapped out with pretty much anyone else from their chapter/legion/forge/race, et cetera and no one would know the difference. So, I would expect most backstories to resemble each other pretty closely within a group, even if that is not the only kind of person recruited.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Tyriks said:


> . Even if no White Scar from any novel ever published has expressed a background besides being a nomad on Chogoris, there are countless White Scars whose backgrounds we just don't know.


It does give us an idea. If the, say, dozen or two marines we _do_ know about only come from the tribesmen and none from anywhere else...

It's probably _more likely_ that they recruit heavily from the tribes and few if any from the cities.

Now I'll be the first one to say that we don't know for sure. But from the information we are given (the lack of non-nomadic White Scars mentioned and the types of people we know Space Marines like to recruit from) it does suggest that the tribesmen would be the primary recruiting pool.

Also when looking at the Index Astartes, it does mention that (at least post-Heresy), "The Stormseers of the White Scars venture down into the steppes every ten summers to obesrve the tribes and their battles, picking the best and bravest warriors and returning them to Quan Zhou to become Space Marines."

Once of their initiation trials is to travel to the pyre-tombs of dead White Scars which is a "great pilgrimage for young *tribal *warriors".

And another section of the entry states, "However once a warrior has been chosen to join the White Scars, his *tribal allegiance* is replaced with loyalty to the Great Ghan and the Chapter. Warriors from different tribes are therefore mixed with one another in squads to break up individual tribal loyalties."

There seems to be a strong assumption that every single White Scar is a tribesman. There's no "If an aspirant is a tribes then..." "All tribesmen will then have to..." It just flats out states that every warrior that becomes a White Scar has tribal allegiance. 

I mean, potentially, the White Scars may have drawn recruits from the cities during the Heresy, but for one reason or another they decided to stop post-Heresy--perhaps they found the recruits unsatisfactory?

While the matter isn't quite definitively settled (when are they going to release a Forgeworld book on the White Scars!?!), I would say it is more likely they recruited heavily--if not exclusively--from the tribes than not.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

hailene said:


> It does give us an idea. If the, say, dozen or two marines we _do_ know about only come from the tribesmen and none from anywhere else...
> 
> It's probably _more likely_ that they recruit heavily from the tribes and few if any from the cities.
> 
> ...


Chogoris is a feral world, is it not? Even those living in cities would be tribe citizens. Just not nomadic ones. 

Further, the argument is fundamentally flawed because we would have to assume that GW is actually basing their current numbers on the presumably limited recruitment possible from a largely nomadic culture. But, as we all know, they will have exactly the right number of recruits that they need to maintain some level of dramatic tension.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Tyriks said:


> Even those living in cities would be tribe citizens. Just not nomadic ones.


I don't believe so. In the Index Astartes, the people of the plains are repeatedly called tribesmen or referred to as part of a tribe.

The people of the cities, serving under Palatine, are considered part of the "Chogorian Empire". Also it states that that during the invasion of the Chogorian Empire by Jaghatai, "Some sources claim that millions were killed by the bloodthirsty tribesmen".

Would be a bit odd if the people of the Chogorian Empire were also considered tribesmen. It would be like saying "Some sources claim that millions were killed by the bloodthirsty humans." Makes no sense unless tribesmen somehow made them distinct from the people of the empire. 



Tyriks said:


> Further, the argument is fundamentally flawed because we would have to assume that GW is actually basing their current numbers on the presumably limited recruitment possible from a largely nomadic culture. But, as we all know, they will have exactly the right number of recruits that they need to maintain some level of dramatic tension.


Uh, what's the issue with this? Chapters usually settle down on feral, feudal, or deathworlds. Populations are small.

Look at Fenris. Tiny populations clinging to an icy deathworld where what little solid ground is frequently swallowed up every couple of decades and erupts else where.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

hailene said:


> Has there ever been a reference to a Chogorian White Scar that _wasn't_ originally a nomad? Even once?
> 
> From any time, 30k-40k.


There's only been mention of Chogorians and Terrans from Asiatic hive clusters IIRC

I don't think it's ever been stated that the WS only recruit from Chogorian nomads. Khan's dream was to unite Chogoris, which he did. Would there be no non-nomadic aspirants? Possibly...I'm thinking there should be some.

EDIT: Also, I would take IA with a grain of salt. It's even more outdated than Collected Visions


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> Would there be no non-nomadic aspirants? Possibly...I'm thinking there should be some.


There might be some. I'm open to the possibility.

Them holding a majority of the Chogorian recruits? Almost definitely not.

Them even holding a significant minority (say 15%)? I'd have my doubts about that.



MontytheMighty said:


> EDIT: Also, I would take IA with a grain of salt. It's even more outdated than Collected Visions


We don't have much information about the Pre-heresy White Scars. _Scars_ gave us a little bit...but really, not much to work with. Not to my knowledge.

If we had a more updated source I'd be glad to use them. Until then, we work with what we're given.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

The Fenris example actually supports my argument. Fenris is a death world, so by definition the propagation of human life is nigh impossible. Keeping even a small army reinforced from their stock would never be a feasible option. There just wouldn't be enough survivors. But Space Wolves always have enough new recruits, somehow. So assuming the White Scars are small just because they may or may not recruit exclusively from nomads is not a particularly sound argument. They will have however many recruits they need to have.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Tyriks said:


> The Fenris example actually supports my argument. Fenris is a death world, so by definition the propagation of human life is nigh impossible. Keeping even a small army reinforced from their stock would never be a feasible option. There just wouldn't be enough survivors. But Space Wolves always have enough new recruits, somehow. So assuming the White Scars are small just because they may or may not recruit exclusively from nomads is not a particularly sound argument. They will have however many recruits they need to have.


Not quite. The Space Wolves had recruiting issues, too. From _Scars_, "The Wolves numbers had never been among the highest, a feature exacerbated by their aggressive drive to limit recruitment to Fenris..."

So one of the reasons the Wolves were among the smaller legions is because they limited themselves to Fenris.

We know that other Legions could recruit exclusively from their homeworld and maintain their numbers:

The Night Lords being one. Talos tells us in _Blood Reaver_, "The Legion had taken immense casualties in the Great Crusade...most of these were Terran...but all our reinforcements came from our homeworld, Nostramo."

We know from _Massacre_ the Night Lords were a mid-sized Legion, somewhere between 90,000 to 120,000, so building a reasonably sized Legion from a single planet is feasible.

And, indeed, many hundreds of thousands of recruits were drawn from Terra before and during the early parts of the Great Crusade. Then again Terra is a hive world teeming with people...Fenris and Chogoris are not.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

I don't even know what you're trying to argue right now. Nostramo was a hive world, meaning it was overflowing with people. Despite that, the Night Lords are only marginally bigger than the Space Wolves, whose planet is impossible to live on. Once again, this just proves that GW is not that concerned with making sure a legion's recruitment practices could actually account for their reported numbers.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Tyriks said:


> Nostramo was a hive world, meaning it was overflowing with people. Despite that, the Night Lords are only marginally bigger than the Space Wolves, whose planet is impossible to live on.


There's probably an easy solution to this. What else limits a legion's size besides recruitment base? Geneseed and casualties. Some combination of these three factors (recruitment base, geneseed quantity, and number of lost marines) kept the any given legion the size that it was.



Tyriks said:


> I don't even know what you're trying to argue right now


That happens sometimes. Basically what I am driving home is that given what information we have (which isn't a ton to work with) the White Scars were probably on the smaller size. And here's my evidence...

1. The White Scars legion eventually drew exclusively from a singe planet, Chogoris. 

2. They drew recruits largely, if not exclusively, from the tribesmen of Chogoris. This is a relatively small recruitment base.

Now what other legion is similar? The Space Wolves. They recruit from only one planet and a relatively small population base. It is known that they suffer for these decision.

We know that recruiting from a single planet doesn't force a legion to be small since at least one other legion, the Night Lords, did so without serious detrimental effects. Terra is also noted to also have drawn up a crap ton of recruits. Given a large enough population base and sufficient geneseed, a single planet can more than produce enough to supply a legion.

Finding the primarch of a legion can and did accelerate geneseed generation. Though Leman Russ was one of the first primarchs reunited with his legion and Curze one of the last. So this is unlikely a reason why the Night Lords are much larger than the Space Wolves.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you'd like to provide evidence supporting a medium or even large sized White Scars legion I would love to hear it.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

It seems like you think there is evidence for your case, but it really is all conjecture. Now, I'm not saying WS is a big legion, because I think any legion will be however big GW wants it to be, so I think it's all pointless to stake a claim either way until GW comes out and says it. But all of your evidence thus far is based on assumptions like: People in cities aren't in tribes; that GW calculates how big a legion would be based on stated recruitment and known casualties; that White Scars exclusively recruit from the nomads, that the nomads are a small minority of the population. None of these are actually presented as facts by GW for us. They might be very reasonable assumptions (and I think most are), but they are still just assumptions. You could call it circumstantial evidence at best.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I'm not denying that what I am saying is not definitive. It is, as you said, speculation on my part. But we don't have the answers to everything, so we have to take what evidence we have and make a best guess. You could call it a theory.

In the same way that evolution and gravity are theories.

If you have a theory of your own, I would love to see your evidence supporting it.

We could weigh your evidence against mine and see where we're at.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

hailene said:


> I'm not denying that what I am saying is not definitive. It is, as you said, speculation on my part. But we don't have the answers to everything, so we have to take what evidence we have and make a best guess. You could call it a theory.
> 
> In the same way that evolution and gravity are theories.
> 
> ...


Evolution and gravity are theories in a scientific sense. To be considered a valid theory in science, it has to be tested and shown to uphold itself. This is a theory in the vulgar sense of the word. Not the same thing at all, as there are no empirical data to support it. 

As for evidence to my theory, what do you mean? As I said, I don't have any opinion on the size of the White Scars as a legion.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I suppose then do you actually have something to add to the conversation then?

You assert that I may be wrong. I make no argument that you might be right. The evidence I have is less than absolute.

But the point of the thread is to discuss the estimated size of the Dark Angels and White Scar legions. If we knrw without a doubt their numbers we could say that and move.

But we don't, so we habe to make a best guess with what information we have.

Do you have something to add to this discussion? Some actual information or insight?


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

hailene said:


> I suppose then do you actually have something to add to the conversation then?
> 
> You assert that I may be wrong. I make no argument that you might be right. The evidence I have is less than absolute.
> 
> ...


No one has actual information to contribute to this, as you have said. All that we have is speculation, which (as I have been saying) isn't worth a damn when Games Workshop could just decide that at the moment the White Scars are the biggest legion (or the smallest) on a whim. 

If someone asked you how many stars were in the sky, would you not consider it "contributing to the discussion" to point out that it's unfathomable? Or would you help them count what you could see? Pointing out flaws in arguments (or logical fallacies that provide the foundation for the argument) _is_ contributing to the discussion. I might not be answering the original question, but neither is anyone else in a meaningful way, since it is unanswerable.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Tyriks said:


> If someone asked you how many stars were in the sky, would you not consider it "contributing to the discussion" to point out that it's unfathomable? Or would you help them count what you could see? Pointing out flaws in arguments (or logical fallacies that provide the foundation for the argument) _is_ contributing to the discussion. I might not be answering the original question, but neither is anyone else in a meaningful way, since it is unanswerable.


I think you're in the wrong thread (possibly forum) then. If you want a question with a definitive answer, your best bet is probably the Questionable Corner up above. It's stickied.

Now if you look carefully at the title of the OP you see it reads "How large the Dark Angels and White Scars *do you think*?" 

Bolded for your benefit.

I am fulfilling the original request of the original poster by posting _what I think_.

Now if you want to say "Ah, ha! What you think is not grounded in absolute truth! You're wasting your time!" That's fine. But the only people really wasting time in this thread is you (because you missed the point of the thread, which is to speculate with what information we have avaiabile to form the best-estimate we can) and unfortunately all the time of people who have to bother to reply to you (me!)

So like so many other things in the world, if you don't want to participate in an activity (for whatever reason) that's cool. Just don't ruin it for those that want to.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

If you think someone disagreeing with you is ruining a conversation, you're gonna have a tough time.


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## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

I think the dark angels sit roughly 105k. Reasons, not over 150 k as not more than word bearers but per dark angels books that deal with caliban in heresy point out they were producing large numbers of marines. 

I would place white scars 70-80. As not listed or thought of as in 5 larger legion in any novel so far, also not listed in smaller 5 legions , so somewhere in between. A low in between due to so far only havering terrans and recruiting solely from chogris. That said someone mentioned only tribesman, I being recruited, I would add that I believe the interpretation of city folk being included in tribesman is true due to the khans desires to unite the world. 
Also in Damocles crusade book with korsarro I believe there is a reference of only 1 line though that states one of the white scars is from a city/mountainous area. Perhaps someone else can tell me if I'm right.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Tyriks said:


> If you think someone disagreeing with you is ruining a conversation, you're gonna have a tough time.


No. Disagreeing is fine...as long as the other side brings a well-formed counterargument. If you were to say, "Well, in book X, it states that the White Scar geneseed is particularly compatible with the Chogorian people and therefore geneseed production could be both accelerated and successfully implanted at a higher rate than other legions."

I would go, "Ah, yes. That is an interesting point. I shall reevaluate my conclusion based on this new information."

That's why we're here. To have a discussion. I bring my evidence, you bring yours, and we reevaluate our positions based upon the evidence presented. If one or both of us is still dissatisfied, we ask for clarification or bring up our own counterpoints. That's how discussion should mostly go.

You're not really bringing up any evidence on your part. That's why this is grinding to a halt. 

I think the rest of us has accepted we don't know how big these legions are. We haven't been told, so that's why we're guessing.

And if you're not willing to accept that premise, that we are just guessing, I think I am done with this particular conversation with you. We're both wasting our time.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm sorry but I think Tyriks is contributing to the discussion. The OP, or indeed anybody else could look at the title of the thread, read your theory for why they are small and walk away thinking they are probably small. However, when they then read Tyriks posts, they can doubt yours and see it's not so clear cut.

Busy at the moment, but for the record I don't agree with you. I think they are likely an average sized legion.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Busy at the moment, but for the record I don't agree with you. I think they are likely an average sized legion.


That's interesting. I can't wait to see your support.

What sort of sources do we have for pre-heresy White Scars, anyway? _Scars_, the IA, some of the codices (which basically mention them defending Terra with Dorn). Is that all?


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

Look, I'm not trying to halt or ruin the conversation or anything. I'm sorry if it is coming across that way. I just enjoy discussing things like this.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Tyriks said:


> Look, I'm not trying to halt or ruin the conversation or anything. I'm sorry if it is coming across that way. I just enjoy discussing things like this.


I'll try to keep this short since I first wrote a rambling post.

If you want to discuss, then discuss. If you don't like my theory, then present your own theory. If you don't feel like you have enough information to form an entire theory, bring up some points to support another theory.

I'll work with it. I'm not interested in my initial opinion being right. That's worthless. I want to get closer to the truth. If you can bring me the right evidence, I will switch my opinion.

Hence my eagerness to see Angel of Blood's evidence.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

hailene said:


> I'll try to keep this short since I first wrote a rambling post.
> 
> If you want to discuss, then discuss. If you don't like my theory, then present your own theory. If you don't feel like you have enough information to form an entire theory, bring up some points to support another theory.
> 
> ...


This reasoning I take some issue with. Pointing out an absence of evidence is still evidence. I don't think people need to take a side to contribute to a discussion. That mentality just discourages people from participating.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Tyriks said:


> This reasoning I take some issue with. Pointing out an absence of evidence is still evidence. I don't think people need to take a side to contribute to a discussion. That mentality just discourages people from participating.


Before I go any further, what do you mean exactly by the absence of evidence?

I have a couple of ideas where you are going with that, but I rather know exactly what you are thinking first before I go further.


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## Rotundus (Dec 25, 2015)

doofyoofy said:


> I think the dark angels sit roughly 105k. Reasons, not over 150 k as not more than word bearers but per dark angels books that deal with caliban in heresy point out they were producing large numbers of marines.
> 
> I would place white scars 70-80. As not listed or thought of as in 5 larger legion in any novel so far, also not listed in smaller 5 legions , so somewhere in between. A low in between due to so far only havering terrans and recruiting solely from chogris. That said someone mentioned only tribesman, I being recruited, I would add that I believe the interpretation of city folk being included in tribesman is true due to the khans desires to unite the world.
> Also in Damocles crusade book with korsarro I believe there is a reference of only 1 line though that states one of the white scars is from a city/mountainous area. Perhaps someone else can tell me if I'm right.


Now every Legion is bigger than paltry 80k. Raven Guard are 80k+ and Forge World confirmed that they are the smallest Legion. Also, Dark Angels are the first Legion ever broke the 200k barrier and during the heresy, they were bigger and stronger than "any other period".

In fact, during the heresy, they were the largest and strongest loyalist Legion along with the Ultramarines. And just like similarly-sized Alpha Legion, they operated across the entire galaxy. So 105k estimation is utter bullshit. 




hailene said:


> Not quite. The Space Wolves had recruiting issues, too. From _Scars_, "The Wolves numbers had never been among the highest, a feature exacerbated by their aggressive drive to limit recruitment to Fenris..."
> 
> So one of the reasons the Wolves were among the smaller legions is because they limited themselves to Fenris.
> 
> ...


You are full of shit and you have deliberately omitted and twisted a certain information as you saw fit to further your own augment. What you have done is epitome of cherry picking.
If you have ever read _Massacre_, then you should have found this particular paragraph:

"Estimates of the strength of the Legion therefore vary wildly. Some put their numbers at a little over 90,000 Astartes, others at 120,000. The Legion was known to have been recruiting from subjugated worlds throughout the latter part of the Great Crusade, in some cases stealing away the youth of entire star systems as the base from which to winnow suitable Aspirants. The use of rapid psycho-conditioning and accelerated gene-seed implantation was also known to be widely practiced by the Night Lords, further supporting suggestions that their numbers were at least on par with many of the more numerous Space Marine Legions. It is also likely that a number of Night Lords elements were not at the Istvaan System, but were engaged in other self-selected actions in the unconquered corners of the galaxy at that time."

So the Night Lords had by no means recruited from a single planet, nor they were a mid-sized Legion. And like I said, now the White Scars have an interstellar empire as tributary and private fiefdom. I will present evidence through direct like. 

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=16656&d=1449339639

See? Their recruitment base has to be more than sufficient to sustain and expand a large Legion.

Finally, _Extermination_ states as below:

"Furthermore, whereas substantially sized Legions such as those of Leman Russ of the Space Wolves, Ferrus Manus of the Iron Hands, and Horus and his Luna Wolves refused to split their forces at the behest of minor -- and merely human -- theatre commanders."

It means Space Wolves were at least as sizable as the Iron Hands and it firmly designates them as mid-sized Legion. 

And they have to be. Because now Thousand Sons are bigger than the Raven Guard and would doubtlessly have more than 85k Astartes strength at the very least.

Scars and Index Astartes might say the Fifth Legion had only recruited from the tribesmen of Chogoris. Talos could say his Legion had solely recruited from the Nostramo as he likes. Authors of Betrayal and Scars can assert the Space Wolves are small Legion as they want. 

But the truth is, like I said, these can, and will, be changed at anytime anywhere gods of Forge World wishes, sooner or later. 

And I have provided evidence verifying the premise.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Rotundus said:


> So 105k estimation is utter bullshit.


Give the attitude a rest @Rotundus, @doofyoofy clearly stated that is/was what he believes. Its not as though he stated it like fact, and you did title this thread asking people what they thought. 




Rotundus said:


> You are full of shit and you have deliberately omitted and twisted a certain information as you saw fit to further your own augment. What you have done is epitome of cherry picking.
> If you have ever read _Massacre_, then you should have found this particular paragraph:


That contains a single sentence stating they did not recruit solely from Nostromo after a certain point in the Great Crusade. 

Why your trying to make yourself out like such an asshole is beyond me, but its starting to get annoying. @Tyriks and @hailene don't agree but they are able to remain relatively civil; theres no excuse for you not to either.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Rotundus said:


> So the Night Lords had by no means recruited from a single planet


It makes sense that the Night Lords later recruited from their empire when Nostramo ceased to exist during the later part of the Great Crusade.



Rotundus said:


> nor they were a mid-sized Legion.


90,000-120,000 puts them at mid-sized Legion. Heck, you wrote about that in your second post in the thread: 



Rotundus said:


> Also, as fare as I know, "fairly average" Legion size means 100,000 to 130,000. And above 150,000 is deemed as "mid-high" range, whilst 80,000 to 100,000 is definitely below average to the smallest.





Rotundus said:


> See? Their recruitment base has to be more than sufficient to sustain and expand a large Legion.


It states the Kolarane Cluster as a tributary for the White Scars, but we know nothing of what they are receiving nor the quantity of it.

In _Scars_ it does mention that the ship-ratings were mostly Terrans "though some from other worlds mingled among them." That could be a possible answer. Though there is still room for some doubt either way.



Rotundus said:


> "Furthermore, whereas substantially sized Legions such as those of Leman Russ of the Space Wolves, Ferrus Manus of the Iron Hands, and Horus and his Luna Wolves refused to split their forces at the behest of minor -- and merely human -- theatre commanders."


The quote you're using has a wider context. It's speaking primarily about the early Great Crusade as humanity was first leaving Terra. At that stage, the Luna Wolves grew rapidly as the Emperor had just taken Luna and the Luna Wolves were given the "greater part of the output of the moon's gene-forges" as stated in _Betrayal_.

Of the Iron Hands we know less, but _Massacre_ does state that their recruitment pool on Terra was "relatively wide spread" and that they drew recruits across all of Terra. This could mean they were substantially large.

Of the Space Wolves we know even less. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Someone with the new Forgeworld book _Retribution_ could tell us what the numbers ultimately roll out to. It has the Dark Angels and White Scar armies in it.



Rotundus said:


> And they have to be. Because now Thousand Sons are bigger than the Raven Guard and would doubtlessly have more than 85k Astartes strength at the very least.


Whoa, when did the Thousand Sons get that big? _Thousand Sons_ had them pitched at 10,000. Which book caused them to explode?


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## Rotundus (Dec 25, 2015)

darkreever said:


> Give the attitude a rest @Rotundus, @doofyoofy clearly stated that is/was what he believes. Its not as though he stated it like fact, and you did title this thread asking people what they thought.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sorry. I had lost my mind(bad things happened when I posted the comment) and confounded this forum with more...aggressive, free-for-all ones.

Relly sorry to doofyoofy and hailene. I sincerely apologize to them and cease this discussion, lest incident like this might be occurred again.


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## Rotundus (Dec 25, 2015)

Some quick answers: 



hailene said:


> 90,000-120,000 puts them at mid-sized Legion. Heck, you wrote about that in your second post in the thread:


No, what I mean is, Night Lords are large Legion and 90,000 to 120,000 estimation is false, or inaccurate at the very least. Think case of the the Word Bearers and, to the lesser extant, the Alpha Legion. 



hailene said:


> Someone with the new Forgeworld book _Retribution_ could tell us what the numbers ultimately roll out to. It has the Dark Angels and White Scar armies in it.


I have already read book Retribution, but it does not contain any Legion fluff at all, unless if you deem army introduction and RoW and some cool quotes as proper Legion entry. You are aware of Book 8 will likely feature Signus Prime and Thramas Crusade, right? We have to wait at least 12 months to get Legion background of the Angels, including their respective number. 



hailene said:


> Whoa, when did the Thousand Sons get that big? _Thousand Sons_ had them pitched at 10,000. Which book caused them to explode?


Black Library authors. Including ADB, in other forums. I'm not able to find the post right now, because the original thread was posted years ago, but they unequivocally stated information from the Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns is "obsoleted" and "will be revised". According the Golding, even though Prospero Burns released during 2011, it was actually completed at the same time when the Thousand Sons was published. 

Furthermore, like I said, Extermination explicitly states the Raven Guard, not the Thousand Sons, are the smallest Legion prior Heresy. Not "one of the smallest" or such, but simple plain smallest.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Rotundus said:


> No, what I mean is, Night Lords are large Legion and 90,000 to 120,000 estimation is false, or inaccurate at the very least. Think case of the the Word Bearers and, to the lesser extant, the Alpha Legion.


They are? Where do we get a more accurate estimation on their numbers?



Rotundus said:


> I have already read book Retribution, but it does not contain any Legion fluff at al


What? That sucks. Boo!



Rotundus said:


> Furthermore, like I said, Extermination explicitly states Raven Guard are the smallest Legion prior Heresy. Not "one of the smallest" or such, but plain smallest.


This is a tiny bit of wiggle room. And by tiny, I mean absolutely tiny.

The exact quote says that the "Battle of the Gate Forty-Two had left the Raven Guard as the smallest of the Legions..."

Which doesn't necessarily mean that they _still_ the smallest of the Legions.

But we're given some numbers and post Battle of the Gate Forty-Two they're ~80,000

As of Isstavan V they sent almost 80,000, left 1000 at home, and there's a few other detachments elsewhere. So they're probably in the neighborhood of like 81,000 to 83,000.

Yeah, still probably the smallest.

Interesting. Just gotta wait another year, I guess...

I'm actually getting a bit frustrated at how close all the Legions are to in strength.


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## Rotundus (Dec 25, 2015)

hailene said:


> They are? Where do we get a more accurate estimation on their numbers?


From here:

"Estimates of the strength of the Legion therefore vary wildly. Some put their numbers at a little over 90,000 Astartes, others at 120,000. The Legion was known to have been recruiting from subjugated worlds throughout the latter part of the Great Crusade, in some cases stealing away the youth of entire star systems as the base from which to winnow suitable Aspirants. The use of rapid psycho-conditioning and accelerated gene-seed implantation was also known to be widely practiced by the Night Lords, _further supporting suggestions that their numbers were at least on par with many of the more numerous Space Marine Legions._ _It is also likely that a number of Night Lords elements were not at the Istvaan System, but were engaged in other self-selected actions in the unconquered corners of the galaxy at that time._"



hailene said:


> What? That sucks. Boo!


Yes, it definitely sucks. However it is still more than worthy to read. I recommend this particular book as strongly as any other FW books. 



hailene said:


> This is a tiny bit of wiggle room. And by tiny, I mean absolutely tiny.
> 
> The exact quote says that the "Battle of the Gate Forty-Two had left the Raven Guard as the smallest of the Legions..."
> 
> ...


In fact, one of the largest detachment of the Raven Guard, the Ashen Claws, are exceptionally strong and numerous. They have more than a dozen capital ships and single-handily scoured entire Nostramo Sector prior the Great Scouring sweeps out the traitors. They thoroughly ravaged and despoiled an entire sector and massacred ~10,000 Night Lords. This indicate their force is thousands-strong at the very least.



hailene said:


> Interesting. Just gotta wait another year, I guess...


Another year? AFAIK, _Inferno_ will be released before Christmas, and if we are lucky, we can expect summer vacation, even. 



hailene said:


> I'm actually getting a bit frustrated at how close all the Legions are to in strength.


What? Numerical disparity and variation between the Legions is no less than immense and that is one of the most crucial factor during the Crusade, the Heresy and the beyond. Where did you get the idea of "how close all the Legions are to in strength"?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Rotundus said:


> further supporting suggestions that their numbers were at least on par with many of the more numerous Space Marine Legions. It is also likely that a number of Night Lords elements were not at the Istvaan System, but were engaged in other self-selected actions in the unconquered corners of the galaxy at that time."


My reading of this quote seems to mean that the author meant the higher end estimates are more likely true. I think the ~120,000 is taking into consideration their accelerated geneseed programs.

And ~120,000 is nothing to scoff at. It's smaller than the Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Ultramarines, and World Eaters, but is equal to or larger than everyone else we know about.



Rotundus said:


> Where did you get the idea of "how close all the Legions are to in strength"?


Most Legions are hanging around 100k, +/- 20k.

Before we had the bottom being 10k (Thousand Sons) and all the smaller Legions could fit the niche of 40-60k. Ultramarines were the largest at 250k, but we always knew the Ultramarines were the biggest (and for good reason).

Now the gap has narrowed from 10-250k to 80k-250k.

If we assumed that the Space Wolves were one of the smaller Legions, that'd put them at maybe...90k, which isn't all that far off from the "medium" sized Legions that are chilling around 100-110k.


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## Rotundus (Dec 25, 2015)

hailene said:


> My reading of this quote seems to mean that the author meant the higher end estimates are more likely true. I think the ~120,000 is taking into consideration their accelerated geneseed programs.
> 
> And ~120,000 is nothing to scoff at. It's smaller than the Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Ultramarines, and World Eaters, but is equal to or larger than everyone else we know about.
> 
> ...


We don't know or even grasp about size of _five Legions_ whatsoever. All we have gotten is some vague hints and ambiguous tidbits. In addition, Alpha Legion is almost certainly exceed 120,000. So currently _five Legions_ out of thirteen, not one or two, are definitely larger than ~120,000. 



hailene said:


> If we assumed that the Space Wolves were one of the smaller Legions, that'd put them at maybe...90k, which isn't all that far off from the "medium" sized Legions that are chilling around 100-110k.


Damn, I could have not found ADB's comments on the 2013 articles yet. But this speculation will surely help: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/317317-thousand-sons-company-organisation/

So it would be not surprising at all if the Thousand Sons are comprised of nine Fellowship-Chapters which contain ~10k marines each.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

I thought that they have mentioned, numerous times throughout the years, that the some of the smaller/smallest legions were the Salamanders (certainly after the Drop Site Massacre), Space Wolves, Thousand Sons, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists (certainly after the Heresy/Scouring), White Scars, and the Alpha Legion.

Most of those chapters tend to; only recruit from a single (or a select few) world(s), or have mutations in their gene-seed.

While at the same time The more average-ish size legions were the World Eaters, Night Lords, Iron Hands, Iron Warriors, Death Guard.

While some of the larger legions were the Ultramarines, Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Word Bearers.

Lexicanum


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Rotundus said:


> We don't know or even grasp about size of five Legions whatsoever.


We can do some decent guess work with what information we have.

The Imperial Fists rarely broke 100k marines (which means more often than not they were below 100k), but they were not considered "small". So we get the bottom limit of of a "not small" Legion somewhere in the neighborhood of 97k or so. The Fists had an estimated 98k marines when they were recalled to Terra.

Yet the Salamanders were described as "one of the smallest" Legions at 89,000.

That's a gap of less than 10% between "not small" and "one of the smallest"

The Iron Hands were 113,000 strong at the outbreak of the heresy. They're considered a "mid-tier" Legion...yet the Salamanders, as noted earlier as one of the smallest Legions, has just ~20% fewer men.

That's what I'm getting at. The difference between the smallest and the mid tier Legions is relatively small. It's not good or bad...inherently. It's a choice the authors made. I personally liked it when certain Legions that had definite reasons to be smaller (like the Space Wolves) were significantly smaller. 

Just a matter of personal taste on my part.



Rotundus said:


> n addition, Alpha Legion is almost certainly exceed 120,000.


I personally don't buy the Alpha Legion being super large. The type of people they're looking for...going back to what Sindermann said in _Horus Rising_--physical superiority can be bred or engineered into a people (only look at the sons of Baal--scrawny rad-wasted youths turning into supermen), but the way someone thinks is not something you can be entirely taught. I think the Alpha Legion look for some very specific sorts of people that are probably less common. Combine with the usual issues with geneseed compatibility...

Maybe the Alpha Legion made up for this stringent demand by spreading their webs extra wide. We all know how much the Alpha Legion relied on human agents. I'm sure they had good accessibility to recruits across huge swathes of the galaxy. 

No, what really makes me think they're smaller than that is the PoV of the author for the Forge World books. It's an Imperial author writing post-scouring. The Alpha Legion are notorious for crazy force multipliers. They might appear to have more men than they actually do (or it just feels like they do). Or they have ways of routing their men through the galaxy through little known paths through the immaterium. 

But I'm open to the possibility of a large Alpha Legion. And, honestly, unless we have one of their Primarches think their actual numbers in a narrative thought, we'll probably never actually know the real number.


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## Rotundus (Dec 25, 2015)

hailene said:


> We can do some decent guess work with what information we have.
> 
> The Imperial Fists rarely broke 100k marines (which means more often than not they were below 100k), but they were not considered "small". So we get the bottom limit of of a "not small" Legion somewhere in the neighborhood of 97k or so. The Fists had an estimated 98k marines when they were recalled to Terra.
> 
> ...


I agree with your opinion mostly. But according to Retribution, Blood Angels gene-seed is exceptional, even more so than the Space Wolves or the Salamanders(mind you, this quote is not derived from the Legion fluff in the slightest, but come from four pages of Legion rules and introduction):

"The Blood Angels, of all the warriors of the Legiones Astartes, evidenced perhaps the greatest degree of transformation of their flesh from their human origins to the Space Marines they would become. This transformation's effects were even more pronounced and more fundamental than that of the Space Wolves or the Salamanders, both of which featured unique stigmata of their own. The aggressive over-writing of the aspirant's gene-helix by the blood of the Primarch was capable of transfiguring the rad-scarred and twisted inhabitants of Baal to create "perfected" warriors, living icons of the physical ideal of the Legiones Astartes, each one an echo of their Primarch, called "the Angel," Sanguinius in his fearsome glory. There was a price however for this power, and the process of transformation was a more arcane, elaborate and painful one than that endured by any other Legion. Even with the direct infusion of its Primarch's own blood to stabilise the process, the rate of fatalities among aspirants was frighteningly high. There were also those who argued that the mental scars suffered by those who survived the change were just as deep, instilling a sense of cause and purpose that manifested as unflinching, unreasoning fanaticism bordering on madness, a certainty which could in mere moments turn to insane fury when that purpose was challenged." 

So I have two questions;
Their gene seed, and gene seed-originated traits make Blood Angels physically superior than any other Astartes? In other words, are they martial paragons as many Imperial commentators and scholars claim to be? 

And why the Imperial Fists are so small for such eminent Legion?

They had all necessary prerequisite to grow into a truly huge Legion - they had large recruitment base, _extremely_ aggressive recruitment policy rivaled only by the Ultramarines or the Word Bearers, intelligent and cerebral methodology of warfare entailing relatively low attrition rate, and fairly stable and resilient gene seed. Most of all, they were favored sons and held recruitment rights of entire Sol System. But they were accounted for scant 98,356 Astartes at the onset of the Heresy and rarely ever exceed 100k number. It is doubtful they had even breached 100k barrier.

All in all, the Seventh Legion's (in)famous numerical paltry defies comprehension.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Rotundus said:


> Their gene seed, and gene seed-originated traits make Blood Angels physically superior than any other Astartes? In other words, are they martial paragons as many Imperial commentators and scholars claim to be?


I have no idea. I don't know enough about the Blood Angels and perfection is a really tricky thing. Something perfect in one situation is useless or even disadvantageous in another. 



Rotundus said:


> And why the Imperial Fists are so small for such eminent Legion?


Their entry in the Forgeworld book says they are willing to fight to the death for victory. "In attack they would pay any price in their own blood to secure victory."

The Imperial Fists would build fortresses and bases where they conquered, but they "never linger, but were always moving on, invading uncompliant domains and pushing the frontiers...Massed shock assaults, using the full array of weaponry with the Legion, typied the VIIth's approach to war."

After finding Rogal Dorn they "fought on the burning edge of the Great Crusade. Relentlessly they pushed from war zone to war zone...They drove ever on, without pause or respite...They existed to serve in war and die for [the Imperium's] survival."

So the Imperial Fists were always on the war footing, always willing to fight, and preferred mass assaults.

They also got the rough jobs in the Great Crusade as they were used to "reinforce flagging campaigns, to hold crumbling fronts and break deadlocked sieges."

The Imperial Fists was like a bonfire devouring recruits as fuel to build the Imperium.


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