# Defiler or Vindicator?



## Ryuzaki (Nov 1, 2009)

Hey guys, I was wondering for a tournament situation wheather it would be better to take a defiler or a vindicator (with either extra armour or daemonic possession). At the moment I'm thinking a vindicator for its better from armour and ability to kill terminators with its demo cannon, but I'm curious to see your opinion on it. For the purposes of this discussion the point limit is 1250.


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## Lash Machine (Nov 28, 2008)

Defiler 

Pros:

Range, good at holding an objective and offers a close assault option against infantry especailly now it is WS 3.

Cons:

In 5th edition you can not really hide any more and you have to have a reasonable piece of terrain to get a cover save.

Vindicator

Pros:

Smaller, easier to hide. Smoke Launchers, Str 10 Ap2 Blast. Better Front armour.

Cons: A bigger bullet magnet, (although this is a good thing), short range and only one useful weapon.

With daemonic possesion, the vindicator is the same points as the defilier. With the game limit being 1250 there will be less big guns and armour 2 units. Most people plump now for the vindicator but having used my chaos army a few times recently I ran my defiler in it and was quite impressed with how it performed. Mine Has Reaper Cannon and a heavy flamer but I would suggest giving it an extra Close combat weapon instead of the flamer.


The reaper cannon is useful for shooting AV 10 and AV 11 vehicles, especailly as it is twin linked. In a smaller game I think the defiler will be more flexible due to it's range and close combat ability. I use a Vindicator in my loyalist army and if given the choice between the two I would plump for the defiler. The short range can be a mild problem as you will be unlikely to shoot in the first turn. Most people use them for area denial, but a defiler can do just the same.

You could always take both. Don't bother with the extra armour, and although daemonic possesion is good, you may need the points for something else, like a unit of obliterators to back them up. If you did use both it offers the opponent a serious head ache over which one to shoot at.


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## bishop5 (Jan 28, 2008)

It would depend what other armoured units you have in the list; if the Defiler or Vindicator will be the only tanks in your army, then i'd plump for the Vindicator for its AV13; otherwise all the enemy AT fire will go into an AV12 Walker.

Having said that; Defiler with extra CCW is a nasty piece of kit - either fire the Battlecannon and move forwards, or just fleet straight at the enemy and watch them panic.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

I say defiler as you can move 6" and fire your cannon not that you need to but with the other weapons on it kitted out to be 2 sets of CCW you gte mass attacks and can use it for CC well tearing the enemy a new one in shooting and CC


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## Praxiss (Aug 13, 2009)

The only downside to the Defiler is it's low armour. it has the range but can be taken out much easier than the Vindi. 

on the other hand, as as been stated, a Vincdi is a massive bullet magnet and there is usually a good chance you wont even get to shoot the cannon before your opponent either kills the tank or takes out the cannon.

Given the option...i woudl take both, as suggested above. that is around 300 of your 1250 points but gives you some serious hitting power both at range and in CC. Hopefully while your opponent is tryign to kill these 2 nasties, you can ove in with your tropps and engage in closer ranger shooting and cc.

Got any ideas for ther rest of your army list?


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 1, 2009)

Praxiss said:


> Given the option...i woudl take both, as suggested above. that is around 300 of your 1250 points but gives you some serious hitting power both at range and in CC. Hopefully while your opponent is tryign to kill these 2 nasties, you can ove in with your tropps and engage in closer ranger shooting and cc.


Yea I thought about that, but then I'd be worried by getting lower sportsmanship/army composition because of cheesiness. I generally have avoided using both, but because of that I guess I havn't seen the opponent's reaction to it and may just be paranoid. Do you (or anyone else) think it will majorly affect those catagories?



Praxiss said:


> Got any ideas for ther rest of your army list?


Here's a copy of my last 1250 tourny list:

•Chaos Sorcerer w/ Mark of Slaanesh, plasma pistol, lash of submission, melta bombs 145
•10 marines w/ icon of nurgle, heavy bolter, plasma gun, champion w/ power fist, melta bombs 270
•7 marines w/ icon of khorne, melta gun, champ w/ power weapon, plasma pistol, melta bombs 195
•Rhino w/ havoc launcher 050
•Rhino w/ havoc launcher 050 
•Defiler w/ reaper auto cannon, extra close combat weapon	150
•5 Plague marines w/ champ w/ power weapon, plasma pistol, melta bombs 165
•5 terminators w/ icon of tzeentch, 2 power fists, combi weapon, chainfist 225
Total: 1250

As you can see I chose the defiler, but that was before I got the vindicator.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Using my marines, I generally find that vindicators are highly unreliable. Of course, I don't have access to lash and that might change things.

Range really is an issue. A scenario like dawn of war can see very little opportunity for a vindicator to fire, especially against people like eldar. A defiler is almost never out of range.

I prefer the defiler on the whole, but the community at large seems to like vindicators, at least in the standard netlists. I'd avoid taking both, because obviously your other heavy support choices are obliterators.

Actually, land raider and 4-6 obliterators is generally a good heavy support set up for CSM. You probably don't need a defiler or vindicator, in my opinion. The land raider does something the shooty tanks don't; it puts scoring units on objectives, keeps them safe and wins you games. I'm becoming quite a big fan of land raiders because they make you win scenarios you might otherwise draw, like capture and control spearhead. They also tend to drop your KP count, which is a major failing of rhinos. Oh, and you can hide your daemon prince behind it.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

One thing that hasn't been mentioned: While the Defiler is much more vulnerable to incoming fire (AV12, huge size means not much chance at cover saves), the Vindicator is MUCH more vulnerable to assaults.

Remember, in 5th all assaults against non-walker vehicles hit rear armor, so Krak grenades will demolish the vindi, meanwhile it takes a powerfist to put a dent in the defiler, and people will be wary about closing in on it. The vindi's short range means it needs to close in and put itself at risk of being assaulted to be effective.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

If someone docks your Sportsmanship score because you take a Vindicator and Defiler, tell 'em that I want to kick 'em inna nuts, because that's stupid. Two large blasts templates is _nothing_.

I'd hate to see what people there would do if a Russ heavy Guard army came along...


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## Ironwinds (Nov 9, 2009)

I own multiples of both. And I play a full mech army so I have plenty of target saturation.


Vindi: GREAT at drawing fire. My rhinos are ignored as long as it is on the field. Demonic is a must have on this thing. Great front armor.

Con: Plan on only getting 1 or fewer shots. Unless you take 2 thats all you'll get. Enemy will focus on it till its gun is destroyed. It has to be close to the enemy to be effective... and close to the enemy means easily assaulted, and it is harder to hide its 11 side armor. When it hits it hits hard. But keep in mind its gun is only better than the battlecannon against heavily armored tanks and things with 2+svs.

Defiler: My vindis are spending more and more time in the box as defilers take the stage. Being able to offer fire support on turn 1. Also can be a threatening fire magnet. I run mine with 4DCCWs, and against enemies where I don't have good targets for the battlecannon and I 'want' to draw fire away from my rhinos I'll have this guy run and pop smoke. Let the enemy know he is on his way and will not be sitting back. That normally gets someone's attention. In most games he moves up behind my rhinos laying down battlecannon fire... and enemy assault units are completely confused as to what to do, they know if they assault my marines... the defiler will counter assault the following turn  . Even big scaries like demon princes, dreadnoughts, and such don't really know what to do with him because of his impressive 6 str 10 attacks on the charge.

Cons: Lower front armor, lets be clear about that. Its side armor is better and the closer to the enemy you get the more important that is. Lower front armor does mean its more likely to die on turn 1. Is behind my rhinos instead of in front so he doesn't offer as much protection to them.


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## englhockey (Mar 19, 2009)

defiler all the way 2 if you got the points


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## Zaden (Oct 21, 2008)

I'm of the opinion the only viable CSM heavy support choices are Oblits and Vindis. 

The beauty of Vindicators is that they can be useful against hordes, GEq, MEq, TEq, and every tank out there...which means they are great against everything. Yeah their range sucks, but put them in a list with winged Daemon Princes, and your opponent will be hard pressed to focus everything he has against your Vindis on turn one. By turn two they should be in range. If they do become a first turn target, your opponent will probably have to throw a lot of firepower at that Daemonic Possessioned AV13, and your Daemon Princes can start eatting your opponents squads and tanks unmolested.

Defilers just don't last very long with AV12. Simple as that. They are large unhidable fire magnets that can't take much fire. They are one of those units that looks amazing on paper, but fails in game.

Whichever you do decide to take, they should be taken in twos or threes.


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## Annabelle (Nov 24, 2008)

I use both. Vindi with a dirge caster is pretty good, just tank shock everything after they destroy the cannon. With proper rhino cover and use of terrain i can make it last for a few turns. Defiler with just battle cannon and 4x dccw. I deploy at the very rear of my lines and just sit and shoot, advancing if i need to menace something. No one assaults it. And yes my other support slot is 3 oblits. 500 pts in heavy is expensive but i think its worth it


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Im anyi Defiler myself. Every Game someone runs 2 of these awsome machines only to have them blown up in turn 1 or 2. My Vindi by itself will last a whole game if you run Rhinos on the side or front the first turn, then pop smoke wait on turn 2, and bam, umolested and ready to destroy. If it survives the first turn, which it does when its hiding in a Rhino formation, then the enemy best units are going to get wasted. That AV 13 is no joke either, just keep the Flanks protected through cover or a empty Rhino.


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 1, 2009)

Thanks for your feedback guys. It seems like a pretty mixed result, with alot of people saying that taking both is fine. With the new guard codex allowing up to 9 HS tanks, I guess 2 cannons isn't as much of a big deal anymore. I guess I'll just take both. k:


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