# Zoanthrope + Swarm Lord



## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Just wondering if anyone else finds a S10 ap1 lance slightly overpowered? It penetrates better than a multimelta and has 6" range on top of that, for me at least, it just seems a bit too powerful for what you expect for Tyranid ranged AT. That ability is arguably the best ranged AT in its class...(short ranged AT).

Given that many shooting attacks have about a 10% chance to destroy AV14 from close range, this thing has about a 22% chance to destroy AV14, that's a 22% chance to destroy the strongest armour in the game, combine this with the fact it can deepstrike right next to your armour and has a 3+ invul it is likely to dominate the tournament scene for nids with a highly reliable anti tank option, capable of landing next to their vehicles from the second turn onwards blowing up crucial armour consistently. I also feel that the Zoanthrope will be highly popular in the curreny mech environment for its reliability to blow armour to smithereens and flexibly switch to an AI role.

What do people think about this bad boy and it's potential to influence the tournament and casual gaming scene? 

Other one I have a problem with, but for different reasons is the swarmlord, instakill automatically with all attacks, forcing re-rolls of invulns, every psychic power, it's arguably THE most powerful melee being in the entirety of 40k so far, making even the bloodthirster look like a sniffling little pansy in comparison. Granted it should be tough, but making it the undisputed champion of 40k melee seems to be going just a little too far...throw in a 4+ invul and 3+ armour to the mix too. The only shortcoming I see from it is MAYBE it won't make it's large price tag back in a game. I really can't work out fluff wise, why a hive tyrant and swarm lord have WS 8-9, well in excess of virtually every other being in the 40k universe....

Just wondering how other people feel about these creatures so far, if they feel they're balanced, fair and how they're dealing with them as of yet...


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## bishop5 (Jan 28, 2008)

Zoanthropes blew up my Leman Russ Battle Tank, got killed by lasguns the following turn.

Haven't played against the Swarmlord yet, although i'll likely just keep throwing cheap, disposable stuff at it until the game ends.


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## JackalMJ (Nov 12, 2009)

To me the bloodthrister isnt the standard to measure the king of melee, that would be the Nightbringer. 10 str, Toughness 8, Wounds 5, has 5 attacks and you get no save at all period, ever. 

What i dont recall is if its immune to insta death and if the Swarmlord rules top that. If its immune to instagib the swarmlord has no chance. if it isnt... then its an awakard face off to say the least. whats the swarmlords init?


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## Arkanor (Jan 1, 2010)

Well the Swarmlord isn't too bad, hit it with Hellfire bolts.

As for the rest of us that don't have Hellfire shells, umm... Wraithcannons? Meltaguns? Plasma Guns?


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

JackalMJ said:


> To me the bloodthrister isnt the standard to measure the king of melee, that would be the Nightbringer. 10 str, Toughness 8, Wounds 5, has 5 attacks and you get no save at all period, ever.
> 
> What i dont recall is if its immune to insta death and if the Swarmlord rules top that. If its immune to instagib the swarmlord has no chance. if it isnt... then its an awakard face off to say the least. whats the swarmlords init?


The night bringer isn't immune to instant death, so it dies quite quickly against the swarm lord. Abbadon should be able to take him on, but it would be a pretty even fight, and Abbadon has no psychic powers or buffing abilities, so the swarmlord is better value in this regard. On the other hand, abbadon can join a unit of termies in a land raider, and go cruising around that way.

A slannesh lord with a blissgiver also has a fair chance of killing him on the charge (about 50/50), and is much cheaper, but will die while doing so. Lash, as always, is rather effective at keeping him from being anywhere important.

with a little luck, wraith guard can take him out with their wraith cannons. Very good anti-MC shooting those guys.

Generally though, the swarmlord is well protected, and will be a bitch in combat to take down. Best to just feed it small things, and hope it doesn't interfere too much.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Swarmlords are strong that's certainly true but they're very pricey. I think the only effect they really have is stopping other people bringing big guys to the party. Nightbringers or Avatars become liabilities against Nid lists now as they might randomly instant death you with the Swarmlord or anyone with Bone Swords. 

Aramoro


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## Sytus (Aug 27, 2009)

Actually, my swarmlord was destroyed before it could get into a close combat by an avatar and massed brightlance/ shuriken fire.


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## flankman (Jan 26, 2009)

for the same cost of a zoan SM can get 2 meltas 

and for the swarmlord youl never get in melee with out 2-3 guards and sometimes it will STILL die b4 that


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

bishop5 said:


> Zoanthropes blew up my Leman Russ Battle Tank, got killed by lasguns the following turn.
> 
> Haven't played against the Swarmlord yet, although i'll likely just keep throwing cheap, disposable stuff at it until the game ends.


I think the zoanthrope is cost effective if it's able to suicide blow up a tank, can't remember its cost but I know it's less than a russ.


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

flankman said:


> for the same cost of a zoan SM can get 2 meltas
> 
> and for the swarmlord youl never get in melee with out 2-3 guards and sometimes it will STILL die b4 that


Except the zoanthrope has an 18" range, a 3+ invulnerable and two wounds, I think the two SM hardly compare to it.

Compared to them, 3+ normal save, 6" effective range...I'd rather the Zoanthrope thanks...It's also S10, so against things immune to lance/melta it's still useful. Essentially with the zoanthrope you get a meltagun with an 18" effective range, so it's better than a multimelta in pretty much every way.


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## flankman (Jan 26, 2009)

well ofc it is but its also our only real anti tank and if the enemy is prepared it will only shoot it once i do agree that it probably should have cost more points (like 10 more each imo) but we still need to pass a LD wich is countered by librarians.


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## Calamari (Feb 13, 2009)

I think that the Swarmlord is insanely cool, he's the oldest Hive Tyrant and all that stuff and even though he is expensive he is still worth his points. I think the best thing to do (as with most big gribbly things (Avatars, Carnifexes big Deamon things to name a few) is to throw lots of firepower their way and let mathhammer have its evil way with them.


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

flankman said:


> well ofc it is but its also our only real anti tank and if the enemy is prepared it will only shoot it once i do agree that it probably should have cost more points (like 10 more each imo) but we still need to pass a LD wich is countered by librarians.


It's your only ranged AT I spose, but it's not your only AT, you have heaps of deadly AT options. I think that infantry are 'outclassed' by tyranids generally speaking, vehicles were the counter balance, but in the current mech environment nids were at a big disadvantage in the metagame sense without powerful AT. I don't mind the 18" AT options persea, I don't like the deep strike rape option it has however.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Playtested the new nids today for the first time... slightly different results to what I would have expected.
Zoanthropes kinda sucked for me, but then I just couldnt roll for s##t. The first time I used them was with a S5 blast... I got 1 perils, 1 psy fail and the last misseed... this was pretty much representative. Warp blast is much improved but the removal of the 2+ save makes them much more vulnerable (although taking a perils and not laughing at my 6++ save was good). I found the hive guard that I was using much better, although this was probably because they kept rolling a 6 when they had penetrated.. need more playtesting to see how I feel about everything (though I doubt I'll proxy hive guard again for a while).

The swarmlord really isnt as scary as people think he is, you just need to counter him right. I had him with a unit of 2 guard charged by njal and 5 terminators, he saw off njal quite easily (made me happy) but then the guard didnt do so well (lash whips really arent useful on them, I really need boneswords but I love the model too much to think about re-moddeling it). Getting hit with powerfists is not a good way for the swarmlord to survive.. mine survived a few rounds before beating all the termies but then died to a rocket (he survived on 1W, with a guard on 1W... rocket plus plasmacannon wasnt a great help at that point).
Knock out any units giving his guard a cover save then just fire lots of missile equivalents (AP3 high S) at him and he'll go down pretty easily. I dont think he is even close to being the hardest units in the game to counter... but along with the amount of Hight T 3+ saves in the nid book he might cause a switch to more long range forepower over the meltas the meta has seen lately (at 500pts a unit it'll understandably take a few turns of concentrated fire to bring him down).


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## JackalMJ (Nov 12, 2009)

I have to point out that the Swarmlord cant "quiet easily bring down the Nightbringer". At T 8 the Swarmlord needs 6's to hit it, and then it has a 4++ save. Of course I realise 1 wound ends the big machine of death, and the Swarmlord can force rerolls of the save, but 6's isnt easy and the Nightbringer has allt he tools to rip into the Swarmlord. Whats its init, who goes first?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

JackalMJ said:


> I have to point out that the Swarmlord cant "quiet easily bring down the Nightbringer". At T 8 the Swarmlord needs 6's to hit it, and then it has a 4++ save. Of course I realise 1 wound ends the big machine of death, and the Swarmlord can force rerolls of the save, but 6's isnt easy and the Nightbringer has allt he tools to rip into the Swarmlord. Whats its init, who goes first?


The Swarmlord strikes first.

Assuming nobody charges, the Swarmlord grants himself _Preferred Enemy_ at the start of the combat. He makes 4 Attacks that hit on 3's with rerolls (so 3.5-4 hits). He then needs to get kinda lucky and roll a 6 to wound. If he does, the Nightbringer has a 75% chance of going boom. Let's assume the Swarmlord can't roll any 6's, though.

Nightbringer strikes. He has 5 attacks and hits on 4's, so he'll hit 2 and a half times, we'll round it up to 3. He wounds on 2's which will cut through any save that the Swarmlord has, reducing the Swarmlord to 2 wounds.

We then repeat the above, except this time the Swarmlord _should_ get a 6 to wound if he didn't in the first round.

If the Swarmlord actually got to charge, it'd be even worse for the Nightbringer, since the Swarmlord can grant himself _Furious Charge_ instead of Preferred Enemy, meaning Swarmy only needs 5's to wound the Nightbringer, which considerably decrease his chances of survival.

The Swarmlord is basically the biggest close combat badass in the game now, though it wouldn't be unfair to say that he and the Nightbringer are roughly tied.


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## JackalMJ (Nov 12, 2009)

Thanks. Well I'll be damned. Isnt that something to have a laugh at. The Swarmlord is now the king of the ring, but he is .. well pretty squeshy really. Compared to the Nightbringer who is hard to hurt, exceedingly durable and can slaughter... everything but a swarmlord. I think I actually like it. Mind you lets not forget the Nightbringer goes BOOM on death. 

And the Grey Knights Grand Master ... well he just gets worse


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## Balrog (Jan 22, 2010)

Im quite happy about new Zoanthrope, im gonna definetly have 2 of them with Mysetic Spore to devastate (at least one) some tanks.
If im lucky, they might survive 2 rounds and have change smash another bigger vehicle.

About Swarmlord, im new player with Tyranids, i like the old Winged Hive tyrant, and that Swarmlord dude, he got some balls. But, without winged he's quite slow. Well see how to move him forward


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Its good he doesnt have wings... if he did he couldnt have any guard (not usefully) and would probably go pop by turn 2 anyway (6 lascannon/missile hits to the face should kill him).

I recon that zoanthropes and hive guard will be the crutch that most nid players use, the heavy venom cannon is ok and the t-fex might be used at times but the elites are where the real anti-tank power lies.

Im not convinced by the swarmlord... if he cant hide away in guard units then he certainly isnt worth it, while if he can then he its still a 4-500pt unit and as such pretty much whatever the enemy does to counter you is worth it. In my playtest my opposition was a little silly at times so my SL and guard managed to kill 9 skyclaws, a wolf priest, Njal and 5 terminators... so he got his points back and tore the heart out of the enemy, but he did it slowly, had to pass 2 JotWW (30% chance of death before he did anything) and only just survived... I think overall I would have been far far happier with the 20 ymgarls I could have had for the same points.


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## crabpuff (Aug 5, 2008)

The swarmlord i played against destroyed every melee unit i sent against it(avatar, banshee, harlies). Good thing I shot the hell out of it with two bladestorms from 2 10 man Dire Avenge squads, that had been guided and the swarmlord doom'd. 48 of sixty four shots hit and only 26 wound and he saved all but 7 wounds. I still lost but that was a proud moment for me.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Mathematically speaking, I don't think there's anything in the game at the moment that can survive 2x Guided/Doomed Bladestorms apart from maybe a 10 man strong squad of Termies. I routinely miss 2-3 times with each Avenger unit and fail to wound ~5-6 times. Leaves ~25 wounds to be saved against T4 models. Even T6 MCs take ~6-8 saves per unit Bladestorming.

I agree the Swarmlord is a stupid stupid creature for gibbing your HQ choice. He does however have to kill, what, Marneus Calgar + Retinue to get his points back?


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## Jernmajoren (May 5, 2009)

Zoans are comparable to Landspeeders with Multimeltas and cost roughly the same, so a pretty good option for Nids, though i am not really sure that Zoan'pods are better for the points than hive guard in a allcomers list since anti-psychic options are becomming more common.
Hive guards costs less than Zoans and offers yet another T6 target for the opponent, they have better range, but lacks the AP1, generally i think that Zoans are good, but the Hive guard are better overall choice among the nids elites.

The swarmlord is a great commander but to expensive in low point battles <1500 imo.
He has a range of special ablities on top of his impressive melee skill that makes him worth the points, however an army should be build to take advantage of the abilities to make him really worth it, such as taking flanking 'Stealers and Podder's to make use of his cunning.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Swarmlord is going to be pretty slow and only has 12" range on its psy powers so its pretty easily avoided with your combat units.. and if it doesnt have a gaunt screen or guards then it'll be pretty easy to take down with shooting.

10 TH/SS are the same cost as a swarmlord and 2 guards... and I think the TH/SS would be both harder to kill and would pump out far far more damage then the SL.

However... some things about him are simple fantasic- one of the funniest things I have seen was Ragnar blackmane and a unit of grey hunters in combat with gaunts while under paroxysm. Old ragnar hitting gaunts on a 5+...


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## KarlFranz40k (Jan 30, 2009)

Sethis said:


> Mathematically speaking, I don't think there's anything in the game at the moment that can survive 2x Guided/Doomed Bladestorms apart from maybe a 10 man strong squad of Termies. I routinely miss 2-3 times with each Avenger unit and fail to wound ~5-6 times. Leaves ~25 wounds to be saved against T4 models. Even T6 MCs take ~6-8 saves per unit Bladestorming.
> 
> I agree the Swarmlord is a stupid stupid creature for gibbing your HQ choice. He does however have to kill, what, Marneus Calgar + Retinue to get his points back?


I think the swarmlord is the nids retardedly powerful big beast that may not be that competitive, sorta like abbadon. Although as for winning his points back, I think he's designed as an army buffer rather than a pure killing machine, with his long synapse and other powers like paroxysm to help the rest of the army fight well. So I'd say its more complicated than saying "he didn't kill xxx points, so he didn't win his points back" if you get my meaning.

On a side note about the Nightbringer, there are other units waaaay better and cheaper to take him on in CC, toxin sac'ed gargoyles per chance? Auto wound on the 6 to hit and 4+ to wound with just a 4+ invun save. :shok:


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

So, you could throw 400pts of swarmlord and unit at the nightbringer and hope you get lucky and kill him... or you could use 100pts of toxin hormogaunts (actually 96pts would do it... you only need 12 hormogaunts with toxin to manage do an average of 5W to the nightbringer).

Im liking hormogaunts for this dex- cheaper and wounds most things on a 4+ however you equip them (Im guessing most people will either take toxin or adrenal glands)- hitting on a 4+ with re-rolls of 1s and then wounding on 4+ will be pretty nasty- losing beasts is a pain (although they can now go on the top floor of ruined buildings) but the 3D6 run means they'll be faster across the board and only slightly slower when they assault... which I think is preferable.
- tervigons could well make well for hormogaunts in my troops sections... swarmlord may well stick around as my HQ for a little while yet though, just because I love my conversion (and if I dont use tervigons then its down to 'Alphas' since I dont care for the parasite.


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## Munky (Oct 2, 2008)

Im just wondering if its a move by GW to try and move the "meta" game away from mechanized infantry into new areas? what do you think? Could a single model with the stats of the new Zoanthrope drasticaly shift how people play?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Munky said:


> Im just wondering if its a move by GW to try and move the "meta" game away from mechanized infantry into new areas? what do you think? Could a single model with the stats of the new Zoanthrope drasticaly shift how people play?


I doubt it. I don't think the Tyranids alone will drastically change the metagame in highly competitive environments. If things like the Zoanthrope become more common in future releases, then yes, it's definitely possible that we'll see a shift. This is actually something that's probably worth discussing in the metagame forum.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

NagashKhemmler said:


> Just wondering if anyone else finds a S10 ap1 lance slightly overpowered? It penetrates better than a multimelta and has 6" range on top of that, for me at least, it just seems a bit too powerful for what you expect for Tyranid ranged AT. That ability is arguably the best ranged AT in its class...(short ranged AT).


A Melta (BS4) in Melta Range has a 21% chance of destroying AV14. Warp Lance has 22.1%. Thats just over a percent better than a Melta. Also, a Melta is better at Penetrating AV 11, 12 and 13. 

Warp Lance is good, but hardly overpowered.


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## JackalMJ (Nov 12, 2009)

While you have a oint Wolf Lord I think one of the statements made earlier also considered the range. Melta's ONLY have that effect within 6 inchs, Multi Meltas have to get to within 12 inchs. The Zoanthingy does it form 18. On top of that its Strength 10 so its much better at killing things that arnt armor.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

The warplance is goddamned powerful, and much better than melta weapons, if only for its range, strength (against things like the monolith) and the invuln save on it's users. It's one downfall is that it's a psychic power, and there are lots of psychic power counters these day. So basically, if you're in one of the armies that's lucky enough too get psychic power defences, it's not that bad, only a 1/8 chance of them doing anything usually. If you don't have any psychic counters, then you'll probably curse it repeatedly, as a unit of them takes out all your heavy armour, without even having to get that close. As they make psychic powers stronger, I think there is a growing gap between those with psychic defences, and those without. It's still not "over powered" when you look at it in relation to all the armies out there, but its far more effective against some than others.

That said, they still need to be used with care, as the unit is vulnerable to assaults, but generally they are tough enough to take care of themselves outside of assault, and any big shots that go into them trying to insta-kill them are shots that aren't going into your other big things (and shots you get an invuln save against, which your big things wouldn't).



Tim/Steve said:


> However... some things about him are simple fantasic- one of the funniest things I have seen was Ragnar blackmane and a unit of grey hunters in combat with gaunts while under paroxysm. Old ragnar hitting gaunts on a 5+...


Hold on a second, Ragnar has a Wolf Tail Talisman, he'd be hitting on 3s anyway


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Taking a look at the current group of Codecies, one could say that many armies have some sort of psychic defense. Codex Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves all have access to some psychic defense. The Black Templars _can_ get it if they choose to take a Vow that gives them a 5+ save against the effects of psychic powers as well, but this probably won't be taken because Accept Any Challenge is so much better right now. Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters have an abundance of anti-psyker gear and abilities. The Tyranids have the Shadow in the Warp. The Eldar have Runes of Warding. Even the Dark Eldar have the Crucible of Malediction.

That's what, roughly half of the armies in the game? It leaves Orks, Imperial Guard, Necrons, Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Daemons and Tau without any means of defending themselves against psychic powers. With the exception of the Guard, all of the recent books have some sort of anti-psychic stuff included in them. It's probably reasonable to expect that as more new Codecies are published, most armies will receive some sort of way to defend against psychic abilities, which weakens the Zoanthropes' potential. At the same time though, the new books are all getting range restrictions on the area of influence that their psychic hoods and what have you must abide by, which works in the Zoanthropes' favor. I'd say that the Zoanthrope will probably get _more_ powerful as time goes on to help nudge the game away from Mech-Edition. But we'll see.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

But I still don't think they will be overpowered. They have the same effective range as a Melta-Speeder, and both things have their advantages. When you look at it in that light, they are pretty balanced.

Imperial Guard can take Inquisitors as well, so thats another army with Psychic Defense. Pariahs can help a Necron army, but they are overpriced. However, Warp Lance isn't all that scary to Necrons anyway.

Tau have Disruption Fields, which brings the effectiveness of Warp Lance down at ranges over 12", putting them on par with Melta.

Chaos Deamons only have Soul Grinders to suffer, but if they don't kill them, a Soul Grinder can just assualt and kill off the Zoanthropes that way. Besides, Warp Blast is less effective against Deamons because of Inv Saves, and hence the overall flexibility of a Zoanthrope suffers.

Zoanthropes are overkill against most Ork Vehicles, and most of them will have Boyz to charge them after they've poped the transports. Hive Guards multiple shots and extended range makes them better off against Orks than Zoanthropes.

That leaves Chaos, who haven't really got a way of stopping the Zoanthropes, but the Zoanthropes will still be a sacrificial unit.


I'm not saying Zoanthropes are bad, they are great, but they aren't unstoppable creatures with Uber guns that kill anything and everything all the time.


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> But I still don't think they will be overpowered. They have the same effective range as a Melta-Speeder, and both things have their advantages. When you look at it in that light, they are pretty balanced.
> 
> Imperial Guard can take Inquisitors as well, so thats another army with Psychic Defense. Pariahs can help a Necron army, but they are overpriced. However, Warp Lance isn't all that scary to Necrons anyway.
> 
> ...


I think that as far as AT goes, a S10, Ap1 lance is about as uber as you're going to get in 40k.


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## KarlFranz40k (Jan 30, 2009)

NagashKhemmler said:


> I think that as far as AT goes, a S10, Ap1 lance is about as uber as you're going to get in 40k.


Yes, it is about as uber as far as AT goes in 40k. So what? It needs a psychic test to launch and isn't extremely accurate, and the unit is kinda fragile. There seems to be this silent outrage that nids have got the best antitank gun in the game, so what? Somebody has to get it, space marines cant have the best of everything.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

No, but giving a unique ability from one race (Eldar) to another for *no* perceptible reason confuses me. What, like S10 AP1 isn't enough? You give them the unique rule that only Eldar and Dark Eldar are supposed to have as well? What's the point? All it does is take away some character from the Eldar, and adds nothing to the Nids.

And why is it a race famed for it's close combat choppyness that gets the best AT GUN? Why not just give them the best AT Melee in the entire game and leave it at that? Why not give the gun to Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, or a race that actually is famous for it's shooting?

I don't care enough to complain about it, I'm just confused.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

I think the one of the best Units to take out the Swarmlord is the big Ork himself - Ghazghkull

hes immune to instant death, and if he charges and Waaagh!s he has 7 attacks at s10 and a 2+ Invulerable

well is true the Swarmlord would wound him easier then the Nightbringer (3+ vs 6) Ghaz still has a much better chance of survival.

as for Warp Lance, I'd rather have a Tau railgun any day, they have waaay better range and will most likely live to fire at lest twice.


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## JackalMJ (Nov 12, 2009)

To say Pariah offer some sort of Anti psyker is a reach. I realise they are suppose to, but it hardly ever seems to work out that way. As for saying a Str 10, AP 1 weapon doesnt scare Necrons? It terrorfies me. Yes it losses the lance, but its still str 10 AP 1. That makes it the BEST possible weapon to take out a Mono (obviously the Railgun is better due to range).

if you hit its got a 50% chance to do something, a 1/3 chance of Penerating. Such odds make me nervous in an army where I rellay so heavily on the Mono for survival.


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## KarlFranz40k (Jan 30, 2009)

JackalMJ said:


> To say Pariah offer some sort of Anti psyker is a reach. I realise they are suppose to, but it hardly ever seems to work out that way. As for saying a Str 10, AP 1 weapon doesnt scare Necrons? It terrorfies me. Yes it losses the lance, but its still str 10 AP 1. That makes it the BEST possible weapon to take out a Mono (obviously the Railgun is better due to range).
> 
> if you hit its got a 50% chance to do something, a 1/3 chance of Penerating. Such odds make me nervous in an army where I rellay so heavily on the Mono for survival.


Don't be scared, the odds of it hitting are stacked against it, with the test and only BS3.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Sethis said:


> No, but giving a unique ability from one race (Eldar) to another for *no* perceptible reason confuses me. What, like S10 AP1 isn't enough? You give them the unique rule that only Eldar and Dark Eldar are supposed to have as well? What's the point? All it does is take away some character from the Eldar, and adds nothing to the Nids.


I could say the same about other armies picking up _Furious Charge_. Originally that was something only the Blood Angels had access to, back in early 3rd edition. You really can't begrudge the Tyranids for having a weapon with the Lance rule when it's become a special rule inside the rulebook. Once it's there, it's for everyone to use.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Meh. Roll on homogenization...

/best Stella impression

:laugh:


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## SHarrington (Jan 7, 2010)

KarlFranz40k said:


> Don't be scared, the odds of it hitting are stacked against it, with the test and only BS3.


==============================
BS 4
==============================


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Firstly: The odds aren't stacked against you with bs3, that's a 50% chance of hitting, i.e. average!

Secondly: I second two points, lance was an eldar rule and all the platforms it was on, had S8 anyways, making them decent but not overpowered at penetrating armour.

Why does the ultimate close combat team with a billion big things that rip tanks apart, need the ultimate AT ranged weapon?

At least with a falcon I can glance it easily and stop it shooting, the zoanthrope is more survivable than most units, it has a bloody 3+ invulnerable save "not very survivable" my ass, add two wounds and you have quite a survivable AT unit.

I didn't want to say it, but I smell power creep once again, the new nids have:

The best big things
The most cost efficient small things
Best ranged AT
Best Melee

Maybe a category or two I missed, but it seems GW is powering up the new guys again to boost sales.


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## Arkanor (Jan 1, 2010)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> A Melta (BS4) in Melta Range has a 21% chance of destroying AV14. Warp Lance has 22.1%. Thats just over a percent better than a Melta. Also, a Melta is better at Penetrating AV 11, 12 and 13.
> 
> Warp Lance is good, but hardly overpowered.


Destroyed often isn't that much worse than some alternatives. Immobilized basically means destroyed for transports or the Monolith (that Land Raider ain't doing much if it ain't moving.) Big gun tanks like the Vindicator and Fire Prism are all but useless with a Weapon Destroyed result.

Lance weapons aren't super great in their own respect. A S10, AP1 weapon that is ALSO lance is just ridiculous.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

NagashKhemmler said:


> I didn't want to say it, but I smell power creep once again, the new nids have:
> 
> The best big things
> The most cost efficient small things
> ...


Please, please play against the Tyranids a few times before drawing these kinds of conclusions.

Tyranids don't necessarily have the best Monstrous Creatures in the game. Sure, they're pretty good, but then so are Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes.

Ork Boyz are also arguably more points efficient than Gaunts and Gants are.

Tyranids _definitely_ do not have the best anti-tank capabilities in the game. The Zoanthrope has a powerful ability yes, but needs to be quite close to do it, must pass a psychic test and must contend with all of the anti-pysker gear/abilities.

Tyranids don't have the best close combat capabilities in the game. Genestealers are good, but are very vulnerable to ranged attacks. The Swarmlord is a deadly character killer, but would suffer greatly in combat against a full mob of Ork Boyz packing a power klaw.

Basically all the stuff you just listed is nothing more than the usual new Codex release "Aaaargh, broken-beardy-cheese!" cries that accompanies every new book that's released. Three months from now people are going to be wailing about how unfair it is that Blood Angels are the best at close combat, the best at shooting, have the most cost efficient troops, etc, etc. Yet life goes on.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Well Tyranids only really have a few things they excel at beyond other races that i have noticed so far that being.

-Deepstrike Tricks beyond other army's 
-Most Versatile Monster's (avatar probably being the strongest Mc Currently)
-Really Really Annoying Elite and fast attack choices.


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## Arkanor (Jan 1, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> Tyranids _definitely_ do not have the best anti-tank capabilities in the game. The Zoanthrope has a powerful ability yes, but needs to be quite close to do it, must pass a psychic test and must contend with all of the anti-pysker gear/abilities.


The 'Nids have a load more anti-tank than just the Zoanthrope. MC's are great against tanks, guess who has a lot of them? The T-Fex (which may just be crap, but even if you don't count it there's more.) Hive Guard, Stealer shock, Mawloc, et cetera.

If they were forced to rely on the Zoanthrope alone, then it's really not the end-all be all. But when you consider that they already have a bunch more anti-vehicle options than anyone with the potential exception of the Imperial Guard, do they really need drop podding lance bombs?


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I dont understand people getting so annoyed by zoes having lance- so it helps you against LRs and if you shoot the front armour of most tanks, but most people seem to be running their zoes in snot pods, so they'll very rarely be shooting at the front armour of enemy tanks... so mostly its just LRs that the lance rule is affecting.

The 3+ inv save is also pretty forgettable. So its not incredibly easy for you to ID a 60pt model, poor ******* you. Just bolter it like you would everything else with a decent inv save. T4 3+ save sounds remarkably like a marine, sure its got 2 wounds but small arms fire will still take it down with ease- it it drops into your lines then rapid fire a unit or 2 at them and it'll be toast, if at longer range then heavy bolyer/auto cannons or equivalents will shread them.


Finally we get to balance- Lets say we have a LRC loaded with 7 TH/SS and Pedro driving 12" a turn at Nid lines.... do you really think its balanced that the nids have no option but to get a MC charging the LRC (so they have already let it get close), hitting on a 6 so they'll be lucky to get the _chance_ of scratching it, and when you fail (and you normally would) you get smacked in the face by the perfect anti-MC unit
... so the Nids get 1 (yes, thats a single) choice that has any decent chance of stopping this thrust, and even then, assuming that the nids have not taken any long range fire (yeah right) a unit of 3 zoes only have a 53% chance of destroying the LRC each turn given the best possible situation (its only a 66% chance of immobalising/destroying it). So all in all there is a very slight chance of the nids being able to hinder this hammer blow from falling since very few will have more then a unit or 2 of zoes and then they either have to survive enemy ranged firepower or roll well on for reserves... and then even after *all* that, the SM player could just spend 100pts getting a Libby, making the zoes 58% less efficient (not to mention being a pretty good counter for MCs, especially if you up it to an Epi)...
- my point, I would barely even call that good, let alone broken/wrong.


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## JackalMJ (Nov 12, 2009)

You've got to see it from all angles, and points cost is a big one. You argue how unfair it is that a what 240 point land raider loaded out with near 400 points of units cant easily be stopped by a single Fex? It simply shouldnt. However if the LRC is rolling towards the nids that means ITS getting closer and allows them to cluster... I think 640 Nids can put up quiet a fight.

However, what your arguing is that its perfectly fair for a ... what was that? 60 point Zoanthrope to deep strike next to said 240 point Land Raider, pop it wide open and then leave the TH/SS termies standing mid filed miles from the enemy to be destroyed by nid fire lines at their leasiure. That doesnt sound right to me at all.

I just hope my Necron codex has a 50 point unit that makes Psykers explode instantly as a counter. That would be fair right? Ok I dont actually hope that.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

No, Im saying that the SM are sending a perfect MC counter into the nid lines... yes it may be a 700pt unit, but if you put 3 trygon primes against it (which is what you would need to destroy the LRC) then Nids will lose- you do not counter an opponent thrust with the unit they are perfect for killing. 
Its like being forced to send rippers to kill a squad with nothing but flamers, you might win, but you just shouldnt do it.

Im not saying its fair to DS a 60pt zoe by a 700pt unit and leaving it stranded... Im saying that that would be a 100pt unit (including snot pod) which has an 16% chance of stopping )immobalising or destroying) the LR turn 2 and a 11% chance turn 3... by which time the LR would alrady be in position... even if you spend 200pts on your own 'perfect counter' unit and DS next to the LR you have a 33% chance of stopping it when its moved 12 or 24" (depending on if the SM have already had their turn 2).. and after that its far far too late anyway

Perfect counters are meant to be better then that- a vindicator is perfect for countering hoard necron armies... a 115pt unit can vertually destroy an army _if you let it_... thats why its called a counter, you have something thats meant to be good at doing a job, so it excells at it.

EDIT- give me drop pod with a melta dread, or a combi-melta+melta tac squad anyday- hell, grey hunter unit of 10 guys in a drop pod is a little more expensive then 3 zoes in a snot pod and almost has as good a chance vs AV14, is scoring, cant be stopped by psy defenses and can survive a lot more small arms fire.


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## JackalMJ (Nov 12, 2009)

I havn't bothered to do the maths hammer so i'm not really debating your accuracy but that does sound mighty low. I realise the chance to hit is a bit of a problem, the Psyhic test not to bad tho, but once you hit, Str 10 vs AV 12.. 2's for glancing... seems like a very reiable counter.


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

I would find a 10 man marine squad easier to counter, with a meltagun they need to land within 6" of me to wipe my vehicle, your zoanthrope needs to land within 18". On top of that, the numerous vehicles who are immune to melta/lance will be near immune to melta (aka monolith) but still highly vulnerable to the zoanthrope which has S10. The Zoanthrope really is the best all rounder and you can barely compare the effectiveness of melta/zoan when it comes to av11/12, both will penetrate basically every single hit.

That tactical marine squad you mentioned with meltas will be around 250 points, that's a bit different to 60 points.

Fluff wise and balance wise the new zoanthrope power is complete shite, it is better than all other equivalents in its class (short ranged AT) more reliable and more powerful and on a more survivable platform. As for the it's expensive thing, people whine about SS termies and they're a similar points value with only one wound and marginally better save.

One can argue about the 'power' of tyranids in model for model terms and of course they'll come off poorely. But when you compare them points wise for what they do they come out on top in virtually all aspects. 

The powerful ranged AT for nids doesn't work because Nids are a close combat army with the best AT option in the game and a bunch of other powerful ranged options, it just doesn't make sense.


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

personally, upon reviewing the dex i have the same thoughts as Nagash about the Z thrope and swarm lord, but then i looked at the price of the swarm lord in comparison to a regular tyrant and almost vommited. the swarm lord it probably a better point for point model then a tyrant kitted out almost the same. upon farther review it seems to me that anyone rocking flyrants are doubly screwed by the insane amount of points that you MUST put into a tyrant to make it anywhere near useful. personally as a preferance, i feel that a swarmlord lacks survivability, even with guard, to be an actual asset to a nid players army, HE cost 280 BASE, with a requirment to take guard of have him die in the 1st round of shooting. this doesn't give him the time required to prance across the field at a meesly 6"s with a possible D6"s more IF you don't use any psychic crap. personally i feel the tyrant and his legendary equivalent got a good swift GW kick in the Adrenial Sac. 

As for Z thropes, well, they are nasty indeed with them being a 2 wounded model who is very prone to instant death if they fail a 3+ invulne, which sound very possible.{ as it has happened to me...} as far as their shooting goes? i find it to be no different from a pair of broad sides or a set of Oblits, and i feel their points costs being cheaper is reflective of their miserably short range. now do i think their bad? nope i actually love them, the precieved threat they represent and could bring to bear on the foe is HUGE and alot of people panic when dealing with them.


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## Coffeemug (Jan 4, 2008)

So I played 2 games last night using the new bug codex. I ran a Tervagon army that had 6 zoan's in it. 

Zoanthropes are a little over powered for their points, but everyting else in the army is over priced so it will balance out. 

I would have to agree that they are the best short ranged anti tank unit in the game.

I dont know how many of you have played them but a 3 man squad has more than a 50% chance of killing a land raider. 

One thing to keep in mind is that the range of the power is 18" but the squad can move and shoot so making the effective range 24". That is more than enough to put them in a position to kill any armor on a standard table. There is no need to make them a suicide squad. 

They are durable enough for their points. The best way to beat them is tons of light weapons fire. Save your heavys for the big guys. They are esentialy a 6 man squad of marines on foot. 


This is sort of off topic but i think the most broken thing in that book is a tervigon. 

I play tested 3 in one army and swept my opponant by turn 3 in both games we played. 

We were playtesting a team tournament Space Wolves army and wanted to see if bugs would be a problem. 

Anyway Zoan's=Dead Tanks 

I would not be supprised to see 9 of these suckers in compeditive lists.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Arkanor said:


> The 'Nids have a load more anti-tank than just the Zoanthrope.


I never said otherwise. The reason I mentioned the Zoanthrope in particular is because the Zoanthrope was specifically mentioned in the post I was responding to.

Rushing at a tank with Genestealers waving their claws hardly counts (at least in my mind) as an anti-tank unit. Mawlocs aren't really very good against vehicles either since their blast is only powerful enough to effect a vehicle with a rear AV of 10 half the time. The only other highly effective anti-tank unit the Tyranids have are Hive Guard.


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## Arkanor (Jan 1, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> I never said otherwise. The reason I mentioned the Zoanthrope in particular is because the Zoanthrope was specifically mentioned in the post I was responding to.
> 
> Rushing at a tank with Genestealers waving their claws hardly counts (at least in my mind) as an anti-tank unit. Mawlocs aren't really very good against vehicles either since their blast is only powerful enough to effect a vehicle with a rear AV of 10 half the time. The only other highly effective anti-tank unit the Tyranids have are Hive Guard.


With the deployment options available to Genestealers in the new dex and their rending claws, they can rip tanks apart pretty decently. It certainly wouldn't be my first use for them, but it is still a viable option.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Arkanor said:


> With the deployment options available to Genestealers in the new dex and their rending claws, they can rip tanks apart pretty decently. It certainly wouldn't be my first use for them, but it is still a viable option.


By deployment options I assume you mean _Infiltrate_ and Outflank.

_Infiltrating_ Genestealers really aren't so bad. They tend to expire rather quickly because everyone and their dog knows how deadly they are in close combat and will go to impressive lengths to deny them the chance to tear units apart. Outflanking 'Stealers are a problem, but really, anyone that's hanging out near the board edges deserves to be rending clawed to death anyway.

Either way though, we both agree that it's not the _best_ use of a unit of 'Stealers, it is possible for them to deal with vehicles. That basically leaves Zoanthropes and Hive Guard as the two most effective anti-tank units in the Tyranid Codex. In my experience, they're not _that_ good and are far from the broken insanity that so many people have been reporting. That being said though, it is still relatively early days. We could have an entirely different discussion next month.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

All i can say is that if people let you get close enough to zone blast em....Or put all there tanks close enough for one Spore Pod worth to wipe them out they deserve to lose........Plus this is why rhino's rock 35 points of "Blast me then we get out and rapid fire Yo ass"


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

I think it won't be worth taking heavier armour if future AT is this good or better. Zoanthropes will proliferate the usage of light armour and reduce the usage of heavier tanks, it's just too easy to wipe an av14 tank. My land raider is worthless if zoanthropes are around.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I would really like someone to take the time to run the numbers to see if the new nids are actually broken for their cost vs effectiveness. I ask because like most games some factions/weapons are arguably unbalanced until the designers catch their mistakes, and drastically twist things the other way for said factions in newer releasess. I mean just look at what happened to the old eldar flying circus. Speaking of which I believe that individual that switch to the new uber army of the year just to win should be dragged into the street, and gutted before a large crowd.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> I would really like someone to take the time to run the numbers to see if the new nids are actually broken for their cost vs effectiveness. I ask because like most games some factions/weapons are arguably unbalanced until the designers catch their mistakes, and drastically twist things the other way for said factions in newer releasess. I mean just look at what happened to the old eldar flying circus. Speaking of which I believe that individual that switch to the new uber army of the year just to win should be dragged into the street, and gutted before a large crowd.


Well then all eldar players would be dead.....Are Army is much better then even the newest books :laugh:


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## H0RRIDF0RM (Mar 6, 2008)

I've playtested Heavily with Tyranids both with and against them. Zoanthropes are definately not the end all of the metagame.

Eldar - Energy Field will reduce incoming Str to 8, Holo-Fields force 2 vehicle damage table rolls, and Runes of Warding just about shut down the power. Did I mention the Eldar are fast. 

Imperial Guard - As a whole Tyranids will struggle against Imperial Guard becuase any Tournament worthy list will have 9-12 Vehicles loaded with Fire Power. 

Space Marines/Space Wolfs - Another army that can field a retarded amount of vehicles for cheap, but alas they haven 24" Pyshic Hoods.

Orcs - Battlewagons with Kustom Force Field are significantly worse off, but not down for the count as our Orks are within Waaagh! range the moment the Zoanthropes get within shooty range. 

Tyranids - Stalemate

Chaos - I will admit that with all the other priorities that Chaos have to deal with that Land Raiders are off my lists. In most cases your Lash is going to suffer against some units that you're trying to drag in due to SitW and our Land Raider isn't as viable as it once was.

and as far as Mycetic Spore's are concerned please oh please drop them on me, because you just may not hit or kill what you want to and I will definately grab my 2 kill points.

So Zoanthropes are a definate pick in alot of case's but not ground breaking.

As for the Swarm Lord, he's a pay for what you get character. 

I play Necrons and for the most part enjoy using the Deciever, fortunately for the Deciever he has a higher T value and a Invulnerable Save. Unfortunately the Deciever is 1 hell of a tricky unit seeing as nobody is going to let it foot slog down the field and do whatever it wants. The exact same thing could be said about the Avatar of Khaine.

Our Swarm Lord is a slow ass old man and if he gets close enough to cane smack you then you deserve it.


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