# The Defiler. Your opinions count



## eskeoto (Mar 10, 2009)

I have a serious question. My army is currently at a stand still, mostly because I can't decide where to go from here. I want to know from those of you that use them or have had experience using Defilers. Are they worth taking or are they a waste of time? Are there better choices?


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

Pros:
Awesome model
Devastating (6 S10 PW attacks) close combat model...
72" battlecannon

Cons:
expensive (dollars)
expensive (points)
HUGE model (is there a bigger one in all of 40K?)
battlecannon is only AP3
psychological effect causes players to target it turn 1 or 2

Personally, I love them. I bring (2) in all my lists above 1,200 points. They're my favourite model in all of 40K really.... I use them as anti-horde... They absolutely trounce nob bikers as your attacks go before theirs do...(direct all attacks against that PK weilding WB... he only needs to fail 1 save to turn into a puddle...)


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## Zaden (Oct 21, 2008)

The main problem isn't that Defilers are all that bad (though they aren't great), but more that they take a heavy support slot away from Obliterators or DP'ed Vindicators. A Defiler equals two Oblits in points, but generally goes down much faster and can't kill its points worth of stuff before it is taken out. A Defiler is slightly more expensive than a Vindicator, has less armor (so will not last as long), is a much larger target than a Vindi (so will not last as long), and does not have as powerful a pie plate as a Vindi. All the Defiler has is longer range...which is somewhat useless as you want it to get into close combat...which leads me to my next argument.

One major flaw with the Defiler is it is pulled between two roles. You want to only move 6" and fire that battlecannon, but you also want to move 12" and get into CC ASAP. These are the two roles this guy is great at, but he can't do both each turn. CSMs already have other units that excel in combat with everything from heavy infantry to vehicles, which are of course Daemon Princes. CSMs already have units that excel at long range fire that can provide a backup heavy CC role - Obliterators. The DPs are much faster than a Defiler that wants to make use of its cannon and perform much better. Obliterators take up the same force org chart slot as Defilers, but perform much better. And as stated above, Vindicators have much more lasting power than a Defiler, and a stronger weapon.

Taking all this into account, I see no reason other than fluff or for the coolness factor to ever take a Defiler. They look much better than they perform. I see an opponent put some Defilers on the table and I see cheap kill points and less Oblits to contend with.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I love defilers for the simple reason if your crouch em down a bit and march em behind vindicator/rhinos they get a constant 4+ obscured roll while your opponents gets nothing because of how high the cannon is.


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## Lash Machine (Nov 28, 2008)

I love the defilier as a model, and it is reasonable on the battle feild, but a said above, obliterators or Vindicators are a better shooting option and will last longer.


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## Crane948 (Dec 8, 2008)

I think defiler are a great option. You can use the scare factor they give by directing firewpower away from your more important models on the battlefield. Also that cannon can put some hurt on anything


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## Critta (Aug 6, 2008)

Zaden said:


> One major flaw with the Defiler is it is pulled between two roles. You want to only move 6" and fire that battlecannon, but you also want to move 12" and get into CC ASAP.


Wait a second. So you're trying to make out that having versatility in a unit is a *bad* thing?

The fleet move on the defiler is only really useful if you've got something just over 12" away from you at the beginning of the turn (lots of people tend to forget defilers have fleet, especially when they're sitting back firing their battlecannon), or for when the battlecannon has been blown off by a weapon destroyed result.

This brings me to another great point with the defiler, namely the fact that even after a weapon destroyed result, it just fleets upto the enemy and hits them in the face. Basically this means you can happily ignore 3/6 results on the vehicle damage table (3/4 for a glancing hit) without breaking a sweat. Whereas a Vindicator with a weapon destroyed basically becomes a rolling roadblock.


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## Emperor's Child (Apr 23, 2009)

Like it was said before, there are better shooting options than the Defiler, but if it came down to CC, they would not do much, while a Defiler would rip through.

72" range does help quite a bit on a long table, especially if your opponent doesnt have a anything bigger than a 48".. Nothing like blowing chunks out of a Heavy Weapons Squad just outside of their range so they cant shoot back


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I don't think versatility is a good thing on individual units. If you want a CC specialist, take it, don't take something that does okay in CC but gets mauled by CC specialists. Same applies for long range firepower. This is the main reason I use Fire Prisms over Wraithlords. That, and they're cooler.


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## Critta (Aug 6, 2008)

So 6 attacks at S10 isn't CC specialist enough for you? Easily enough to instant kill any non-eternal warrior and can rip through squads of everything except things like nobz or terminators that are covered in power fist equivalents with ease.

With the added bonus of fleet, and AV so the enemy needs powerfists or melta bombs for even a chance at a penetrating hit?

With these being the only vulnerabilities in CC, and with fleet, it's pretty easy to keep it away from anything that would threaten it there and if you don't want to dive into combat, oh look, you've got a 72" range ordinance weapon.

Aside from the size of the model and the relative fragility of AV12, there's nothing not to like about the defiler in my opinion.


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

remember when dealing with any selection for your army - no man is an island... you have to look for combinations in your list. That being said, Chaos has amazing troop & heavy support options while our fast attack selections (and to a lesser extent elites) are lacking...

But take a look at what you want:

Havocs:
Generally speaking suck. A great way to get 4 heavy bolters in a squad (great for antihorde) but generally speaking, they'll either be kitted out for one job & perform sub-par at all others, or will be jack-of-all-trades & wont excell at anything.

Obliterators:
The ability to choose which weapon you're firing makes these monsters usefull in pretty much any situation. The only way chaos gets access to plasma cannons. The ability to move D6" and still fire a lascannon / multimelta is fantastic. Drawbacks? Well they're so awesome they're going to attract a lot of fire & at T4 they catch wounds very quickly... I always run a group of 2 in my lists & frankly, by the end of the game I'm usually down to 1 wound left (or 0) and they probalby haven't *killed* anything (I find chosen with meltas better for popping tanks...) but that's usually due to my poor rolls (3's to hit? I'll roll 2 3's. 3's to glance? I'll roll 2 2's... and curse)

Vindicators
1 trick pony. 24" demolisher cannon is fantastic. Of course, you need to get within 24"... that means that if you don't kill what you're firing at, chances are he's going to smash into your tank (which moved less than 6" to fire its big gun) & tear it up in melee - or just be so close that you're not going to want to fire your big gun... If they stay out of range, or imobilize / weapon destroy it you're looking at a big peice of terrain now....

Predators
Does anyone use these?

Defilers
see my post above... I love them... Just wish they were smaller targets...

Land Raiders
Take these as terminator transports so they don't fill up your Heavy support slots... else you're wasting potential...


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

ooh! a double post. shame on me...



Critta said:


> So 6 attacks at S10 isn't CC specialist enough for you? Easily enough to instant kill any non-eternal warrior and can rip through squads of everything except things like nobz or terminators that are covered in power fist equivalents with ease.


Defilers strike before PFists (I3 vs I1) so you may be able to ignore a large number of those PFist attacks simply by destroying them=)

... I've charged 2 defilers into a biker-boss c/w nobs. Due to allocation, he had to put wounds on everyone & lost the warboss & 4 nobs. 3 PK attacks back didn't manage to do anything & the orks failed their LD1 check & were swept!!!


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Critta said:


> So 6 attacks at S10 isn't CC specialist enough for you? Easily enough to instant kill any non-eternal warrior and can rip through squads of everything except things like nobz or terminators that are covered in power fist equivalents with ease.
> 
> With the added bonus of fleet, and AV so the enemy needs powerfists or melta bombs for even a chance at a penetrating hit?
> 
> ...


Aside from their being large shards of glass in my burrito, this is a wonderful meal.

Oh boy, six attacks at ws 3. So you get to squish three marines before being locked in combat. Or even better, orks. Even with you valiantly smushing three orks a round, that powerklaw is still swinging and will eventually take your 'combat specialist' down, with most of his mob left.(Oh and 19" charge range. Enjoy ur fleet)

And the emperors champ can glance without a fist or melta bomb 

The 72" ordnance is only ap3. So against things like terminators, they just laugh and stumble forward.

It's problem is that it's too big to be av12, if dreadnoughts never received a cover save, nobody would ever take them, regardless of weapons loadout(except those that can pod down).

The defiler is just too big, too expensive, and has no earthly idea what it's supposed to be doing.

You can fire the battle cannon, but you're wasting a fleet roll, or you can fleet and waste a battle cannon roll. It's versatility is what kills it, kinda like the same problem with nilla marines. It tries to do everything but never excels.

Plus I don't know how stupid an ork nob biker has to be to get charged by one of these since he can literally, just boost out of the way. Or take potshots at the back with a s5 rerollable weapon that fires three times. Glance the arms off and assault.


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> You can fire the battle cannon, but you're wasting a fleet roll, or you can fleet and waste a battle cannon roll. It's versatility is what kills it, kinda like the same problem with nilla marines. It tries to do everything but never excels.


Or - you can move 6", fire your battle cannon. Next turn move 6", fire your battle cannon. Next turn move 6", fleet, charge.

Say you lose your cannon before? Well darn, start fleeting a bit earlier
Say you get imoblized? Well darn, keep firing that battlecannon.

Say you get destroyed, or both imobilized & WD? Well darn. But hey, that was 2 shots to take it down that may have been directed elsewhere. And well, I'd rather have a devastator squad throw 4 lascannons at my defiler than into a squad of noise marines...



LordWaffles said:


> Plus I don't know how stupid an ork nob biker has to be to get charged by one of these since he can literally, just boost out of the way. Or take potshots at the back with a s5 rerollable weapon that fires three times. Glance the arms off and assault.


Not everyone has your limiteless tactical accumen waffles. You don't pay for nob bikers to sit back and shoot (if you do then I retract my previous statement about your boundless accumen...) you pay for them to get PK's and big choppas into close combat FAST. Of course, you hit my line, either you wipe out what you charged & get a 6" move, or you get pitted for my turn. Well here comes that lumbering behemoth. Your Nobs with choppas aren't S7 now since they didn't charge, meaning they need 3's to hit & 6's to glance. Your nobs with PK's are sure as hell going to tear me up, but I've got 6 ID dealing swings coming first.

You take 30 boys with a PK nob, I'll take my defiler. You run forwards, I'll move backwards & hit you with a cannon. You run forwards, I'll move backwards & hit you with a cannon, You run forwards, I'll move backwards & hit you with a cannon. You charge and I'll turn whats left of your boys mob to paste. While running you'll get an average of 7" closer to me per turn, meaning if I deploy as close to you as possible you'll still need 2 / 3 turns of battlecannon blasts to get your charge. With a mob of 30 boys, even with maximum scatter you're almost bound to kill a couple per turn.

You do have a point about TEQs though - of course there is no unit that can answer all others.

And sure. The emperor's champion can glance without anything fancy - but a glance is a glance is a glance. Unless he scores 6 glancing hits he's still locked in combat for another round where he's going to take additional blows - and the defiler only has to make one hit land...


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

LordWaffles said:


> Aside from their being large shards of glass in my burrito, this is a wonderful meal.


:laugh:



> The defiler is just too big, too expensive, and has no earthly idea what it's supposed to be doing.


QFT!!!:goodpost:



> Plus I don't know how stupid an ork nob biker has to be to get charged by one of these since he can literally, just boost out of the way. Or take potshots at the back with a s5 rerollable weapon that fires three times. Glance the arms off and assault.





m3rr3k said:


> ... I've charged 2 defilers into a biker-boss c/w nobs. Due to allocation, he had to put wounds on everyone & lost the warboss & 4 nobs. 3 PK attacks back didn't manage to do anything & the orks failed their LD1 check & were swept!!!


I don't know how stupid a player has to be to allocate wounds on a squad of his onto the Independant Character who CAN'T be wounded unless in base-to-base...




m3rr3k said:


> You don't pay for nob bikers to sit back and shoot (if you do then I retract my previous statement about your boundless accumen...) you pay for them to get PK's and big choppas into close combat FAST


 Or not, depending on the situation. Nob Bikers will often wipe out anything they charge, putting them in exactly the same sitaution either way. Sometimes it's better not to be in Rapid Fire Range when their turn rolls around.



> I'd rather have a devastator squad throw 4 lascannons at my defiler than into a squad of noise marines...


If my opponent takes a Devastator Squad, I'm not really worried what they shoot - the rest of the army is likely as bad.

You need to be  and not take people's dislike of the Defiler personally. It ISN'T specialised - that's why it has a Battlecannon instead of a S7 Heavy Flamer or something else good at short range. GW admitted as much when they took away the Indirect Fire option and gave it a decent BS.


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

TheKingElessar;381909I said:


> don't know how stupid a player has to be to allocate wounds on a squad of his onto the Independant Character who CAN'T be wounded unless in base-to-base...


in this situation 1 defiler picked out the WB since killing him was immesurably more important than getting an additional nob...




TheKingElessar;381909I said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by m3rr3k
> You don't pay for nob bikers to sit back and shoot (if you do then I retract my previous statement about your boundless accumen...) you pay for them to get PK's and big choppas into close combat FAST
> 
> ...


What the hell does that even mean? I really don't know... are you saying you wouldn't put your nob bikers into combat?








TheKingElessar;381909I said:


> If my opponent takes a Devastator Squad, I'm not really worried what they shoot - the rest of the army is likely as bad.


touche (devastator squad was used as an easy example... could just have easily been fire dragons / obliterators / etc)...



TheKingElessar;381909I said:


> You need to be  and not take people's dislike of the Defiler personally. It ISN'T specialised - that's why it has a Battlecannon instead of a S7 Heavy Flamer or something else good at short range. GW admitted as much when they took away the Indirect Fire option and gave it a decent BS.


Thread is to discuss the pros / cons and give personal opinions on defilers. Waffles has done that & I am only providing my take on his points. All I'm trying to convey is that defilers are not the lame duck he is trying to portray them as. Anyone who's spent any time on heresy knows that there are a few on this forum that recommend you only take 3 units from any given codex if you want to have fun / win. Waffles happens to be one of them... He also happens to take a much more condescending tone than most do...


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

There are situations where I have intentionally avoided combat with my Nob Bikes, yes. Sometimes being a better tactician means doing the unexpected, and that certainly does the trick there. I don't mean that to sound condescending, but it's true.

I don't think Defilers are competitive. I think that, in Apocalypse, Cities of Death, or Planetstrike games they may be the best Heavy Support in the Chaos Codex, if not the game (Soul Grinder would be better I suppose, maybe the Wraithlord or a few others) In 'normal' 40k though, they aren't shooty enough to beat Oblits or combat-y enough to beat Berzerkers, DPs, even Dreadnoughts. (WS4 and a smaller profile against incoming fire trumping Fleet IMO)

There _are_ a limited number of units in each Codex that are genuinly good. Some players, myself included, get more fun out of winning than just playing the game, and will _generally_ beat players who take things like Swooping Hawks because they like them, even though they know the points could have been spent better.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Defilers are not swooping hawks.

It's entirely possible that a defiler could kill a warboss in a nobz mob unit, though it would need a 5 to hit due to its confusingly bad WS. The warboss must try and get into combat, gets picked out, bam.

It's also more than likely that they would get a charge. Either they are counter-charging after the nobz went into something else, or the chaos player has lash, or the orks just have to advance because two defilers are firing at them and all they have are big shootas.

I actually prefer defilers to vindicators. I think the versatility is highly useful and that the range and ability in cc is well worth having. Chaos don't particularly need more AP2 area stuff as they have plenty of plasma cannons from their obliterators. The vindicator operates in a very narrow range band and, for that matter, is clearly far less use against nobz bikers than a defiler.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Well, first off, I need to say - from a tourney point of view, and a competitive point of view. Obliterators are much better than the defiler.

That being said, I am planning on running a list with 3 of these guys, geared for CC. Because of the "ooooh scarey" factor and that these guys are actually quite killy, they will take a lot of pressure off of my rhinos. Which means my plague marines can go a bit further and stay protected for another turn. I agree with what m3rr3ck said about the versatility. It's free to make it pretty good in combat, while still allowing your to drop battle cannon plates on your enemy every turn. Nothing wrong with plating the shit out of a mob of orks, only to charge when they get there.

Additionally, against smaller, more specialized units - you've got a decent chance of taking very little damage in combat. MOST power fists/klaws are going to need 3's and then 4's to do anything to you, and even then, only a couple of the results matter. You're going to need 4's and 2's and every one of those is either a shitty invuln or a kill.

Like I said above, the obliterator is better, hands down... But defilers have their place, they can perform well, and they have a role.

If nothing else, the next time your non-40k friend walks him, perhaps he'll/she'll see it and say, Whoa, "WTF is that?" And you can guide him into the light that is 40k.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Someguy said:


> Defilers are not swooping hawks.
> 
> It's entirely possible that a defiler could kill a warboss in a nobz mob unit, though it would need a 5 to hit due to its confusingly bad WS. The warboss must try and get into combat, gets picked out, bam.
> 
> ...


Defiler against a warboss would still need 4s to hit. WS 3 vs WS 5 - Warboss would need at least WS 7 to be hit on 5s.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I never got why people are so down on the Defiler. I mean its a 150 point model that when used right can earn back its point total with ease. Also as to PF on nobs and the like they still have to roll to hit then a 4+ to do anything so unless their is 3+ PF the defiler may not even get damaged before it wins combat. As to oblitorators I love when my enemy fields them since everyone of my template weapons can instant gib 3 at a time. I remember last game I kept my artillery out of sight while creeping up till I jumped out and instant gibbed 6 Olbitorators at once. True get was unlucky to fail his 6 5+cover/inv save, but that is the main weakness of oblitorators. In my opinion heavy slots should always be filled with artillery just because of the simple fact no other unit in the chaos army can take template weapons. Why would I need obliteraters when I can take 4 melta's in a chosen squad or better yet a standard CSM squad with PF. I mean do you really need a dedicated anti-tank squad when your average CSM squad can do it for less with more versatility, and survivability. Mind you this is just my experience others may have developed tactics that work with oblitorators, but I've never found a use for em. Mind you I am mechanized so every anti-tank shot wasted trying to kill my artillery gets my transports further along. Also why hasn't anyone mentioned the obvious tactic to march vindicators behind rhino's making them invincible to shooting.


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> Also why hasn't anyone mentioned the obvious tactic to march vindicators behind rhino's making them invincible to shooting.


because this thread is about the usefullness of defilers not vindicators:grin:

one thing to bear in mind is that for tank hunting obliterators are generally better due to their S9 lascannons rather than S8 battlecannons - BUT for antihorde / guard I'd take filers any day. Obliterators have to get up & close before their templates are really any good - sure they have a plasma cannon, but (a) that can get hot & (b) it's only a small blast. You flame a mob of orks, kill 5 and then 20 jump on you... you're only going to be able to make so many 2+ saves....


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

You mean 2 plasma shots...and many many plasma shots before they have to fire flamers onto boys. 

I personaly find oblits to be far more useful than defilers, but defiler can has its role against certain armies where battlecannon blast can do alot of damage, possibly take back whole/almost whole points of defiler back in one shot. And then if it survives for few turns it can go fight in meele...thing is oblits usualy earn much more points back for themselves in my games


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

A lone Defiler wont last long unless its supported. More of them, 2 or 3 in an all mechanized army could most likely work very well.

Think 3 8 man zerkers in Rhinos, 3 Defilers and 2 Lash DPs


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## Zaden (Oct 21, 2008)

The Defiler is great if you know generally what you are going to be fighting. If you built your lists to take all comers, Defilers just fall short. Obliterators will always have a roll against any army you face, bar none. So as I said before, the biggest problem with Defilers is not that they suck, its that they take a lot away from the far superior Obliterators. Yes, in certain situations a Defiler will out-perform two Obliterators (very rarely). However, against all armies in general, on average, Obliterators excel. If you know exactly what army you are going to play against, and exactly what units they like to take, you could make an argument for any shitty choice in any codex at one point or another. The point of building competitive lists (in my opinion) is to take choices that will ALWAYS have an effective roll in every turn of every game. Anyone that says this of Defilers needs to stop playing the same friends over and over and play some tournaments. Also like I said before, if competitive play isn't what you are going for, these guys will definitely be fun and nice to look at. This is a tactics forum though, and I employ tactics that increase my chances to win games.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Defilers are in my opininon better than a Vindicator I mean whats a vindi used for um alot of heavy troop killing at short range - the Defiler does this a long range and then in CC for short range. 2 Defilers and 3 Obliterators is a great Heavy Support slot. Against Nids I'd take 3 of them any day goodbye a huge chunk of army T1. And against loyalists they nail those troops and/ or any power armour based unit and then can hold thier own in CC with 5-6 S10 Attacks. I like them and the points aren't that bad at all. Yes they are big but in City Fights they are great as half the time they have a cover save or can't be seen behind the buildings


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

It's the size of a kmart with the armor of a well-wetted tissue. And not some crazy regenerating space tissue the eldar have.

That is why we rag on the defiler.

And Luke, if your opponent is stupid enough to take teams of three in small little pods, and deep strike them all right next to each other/walk them together, you might have been playing from a skewed veiwpoint on the effectiveness of our best heavy support choice.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I selling my Defiler Sprue to buy another Raider. They Cost as much in cash. As for Gameplay, Defilers are (and always for Eldar, IG) the Primary Targets for Heavy Weapons, Meltas, and the always fun Witch Blades. I Myself like the Vindicator for the Cheaper in points, Strength 10 AP2 Pie, and the better 13 Front Armore. Thats me. Plus they are WAY easier to conceal or hide.


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## Blasphear (May 11, 2009)

If your going to have a Defiler you need some other form of armour as well because (as someone posted before) they take alot of fire, two would be good!


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## Pandorav3 (Jan 30, 2009)

consider this, think of how easy armored sentinals go down, now make them HUGE, and for probably visual reasons gets targeted ASAP, now make it alot of points and you have a defiler. Sure it has ALOT of offensive potential, but what good is that when it goes down easy in your opponents first turn. In conclusion the defiler would be amazing if nothing would shoot at it.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

I think 2 defilers supported by 2 obliterators can be pretty potent - Or even 3 defilers. It takes a lot of pressure off of you rhino's - allowing that power fist to get in close without much difficulty. 

If they target your rhinos, well, you're free to drop pie plates or fleet.

Another nice bonus about the defiler is the possession. It negates a lot of potential hindrances for a CC machine that one can normally get with dreadnoughts.


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## MJayC50 (Oct 30, 2007)

crimzzen i run the same. two defilers and 2 oblitz. it works a treat. combined with lash it is awesome. now with the 5th ed. rules vehicles lasts much longer and av12 is not so much of a big deal. i run it simply. i walk and shoot with the defilers until they either get an immobilesed result or weapon destroyed. then your mind has been made up. but 6 attacks on the charge is an awesome thing. the unit is so versatile and now in 5th is a no brainer for me


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## chaos_from_above (May 16, 2009)

*Great Choice*



eskeoto said:


> I have a serious question. My army is currently at a stand still, mostly because I can't decide where to go from here. I want to know from those of you that use them or have had experience using Defilers. Are they worth taking or are they a waste of time? Are there better choices?


Well, defilers have the big template battle canon. (good for swarm teams and just anything with AP3+) also you can arm it with a heavy flamer and another range of wepons. The Dreadnought Close Combate weapons with kill any tank. As long as you can get it into close while blasting away ur enemy its defenatly a good choice.


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## Dies Irae (May 21, 2008)

Zaden said:


> The Defiler is great if you know generally what you are going to be fighting. If you built your lists to take all comers, Defilers just fall short. Obliterators will always have a roll against any army you face, bar none. So as I said before, the biggest problem with Defilers is not that they suck, its that they take a lot away from the far superior Obliterators. Yes, in certain situations a Defiler will out-perform two Obliterators (very rarely). However, against all armies in general, on average, Obliterators excel. If you know exactly what army you are going to play against, and exactly what units they like to take, you could make an argument for any shitty choice in any codex at one point or another. The point of building competitive lists (in my opinion) is to take choices that will ALWAYS have an effective roll in every turn of every game. Anyone that says this of Defilers needs to stop playing the same friends over and over and play some tournaments. Also like I said before, if competitive play isn't what you are going for, these guys will definitely be fun and nice to look at. This is a tactics forum though, and I employ tactics that increase my chances to win games.


Defiler bad against all-commers? AP3 pie(anti-MEQ), twin linked heavy flammers (anti-horde), reapper autocanon(anti light vehicules+MEQ) and CC Dreadnought weapons(anti vehicule/MC)?!?!?!?!

A lot of people here exchange the extra firepower for extra CC attacks, and i dont see why: the Defiler's CC weapons are made to crush vehicules and MC, and 2 more attacks arent going to help you. A lot of people took the example of the ork horde, well i just move, fire the heavy flammers (auto-hit, wound on 3's with rerolls and no armour save), and then assault...OK i only have 4 CC attacks, but i just kill 5+ Orks with my flammers...I dont understand why you all take extra CC attacks. Even better, if you Defiler gets a "Weapon Destroyed hit", he can still keep shooting!


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