# What is with tournament players



## Nipolian (Nov 4, 2009)

I have seen a tournament and everybody there are so strict about the rules. In a tournament they wouldnt let a person use a unit because it was equiped with a hand weapon and sheald and not spears. Another time i saw a person not be able to use some people because they where on fanticy baces and not 40k (was the demons). they are just well b****** about every small thing. is there a reason why or are they just being babies.

Please dont get mad if you are the kind of person that is very strict i was just wondering what people think?


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

I'm not a tourney player myself, but I kind of know what you're getting at. I will bring up two points though.

Firstly, the thing is that that they have to be strict about the rules for a few reasons. If they let people use handweapon/shield instead of a spears, then gameplay becomes confusing, especially when competitors are playing quite a few games in a row. If some things are not "WYSIWYG" then you open the door for people using all sorts of fill-ins, and that can really make things confusing Also remember that these rules are usually enforced by the tournament organisers, Not the players themselves. It's just so that everyone has a fair playing field, and everything runs smoothly.

Secondly, it's a pretty broad-brush you're using there. Not all tourney players are rules lawyers, or hard to get on with. A couple of friends of mine, both great guys, go to tourneys occasionally, and they're nice as can be. One even won the sportsmanship award. You do however find a much higher percentage of players are... ambitious, and willing to argue anything that might help them. These are still not the majority of players, and it's worth remembering that the average person going to a tourney just wants to have a good time. 

Anyway, that's just my opinion. Yes, you can find a few whiners in tourneys, and people who want to win at all costs, but that's really not everyone.


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## matty570 (Jun 14, 2007)

I've been to a few tournaments myself and although you do get some people who try to enforce petty rules to get an advantage over the other player most people are just there to play a few games and have fun, but as it is a tournament people are likely to be a bit more competative and will get frustrated at people who try to abuse the rules in their favour.

I do agree about the comment around hw/shield and subbing them as spears as I have played someone before who told me they were meant to be spears and I just went with it but I was talking to someone else after the game and they had played them previously where they had used the unit as having hw/shield. I wouldnt say it impacted the game a great deal but it is cheating and probably should have been firmer about them using it as hw/sd


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

You don't have to be a tourney player to be a tool, it just helps.
Seriously though most of my gaming opponents go to tourneys and we play to standard tourney rules even for friendlys as it cuts down on mistakes when they're playing competatively.
I don't really feel the need to compete at the tourney level but have no real problems helping out my mates but in a random game against someone I don't know so well I have no problem with proxys etc provided its all clarified at the start of the game.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

ahh yes tournie players, I've been vocal enough about these people for years, don't like them, too competitive for a game with toys, and they cheat more than any other kind of player I find.

and yes they are nitpicky and stupid, I remember one example of 1 guy using dark elf knights and he had a pennant on every knights lance and a massive hand painted banner for the command section, the player called over a organiser complaining he could not tell who was the command standard bearer, so the organiser forced him to remove the entire unit.

same person was also told he could not use some OOP models for his dark elves as the organiser and player both said they were not GW official models, when they obviously were.

the entire tournament enviroment is just a pathetic thing really, and I don't understand how people would want to be part of something where things like in my example do happen.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Well, I once went to a Tournement, and pre-gaming day, we all had to submit our lists. I clearly (and was told i was allowed) stated I was using C:SM for my Night Lords. Upon arrival, first game, some twat with Ultramarines complained. And i was forced to withdraw from the Tournement.
So it happens in the 40k world too.

I've never really had a problem at WFB tourenys, people are definitely nicer at those cmpared to 40k.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I can understand players wanting to have strict WYSIWYG and rules usage at tournaments, and doing so doesnt make you a prick... unfortunately it being a competetive event means you'll attract the competetive pricks. Almost anyone who isnt a nob will gratefully play againt a cool looking army that isnt quite codex if all the weapons options ect are right- playing C:SM for night lords or having pennants on lances is the sort of thing most players _want_ to see happening as its different and cool... the nobbish opponents in those cases should have been slapped by the judges and told to grow up.
As for the old models being said to have been non-GW I would have gotten incredibly annoyed... broken one off its base and showed them the damn GW copyright on the model, then demand some glue so my model could continue to partake in the tourny... if the judge still doesnt let you use it punching him in the face is always a good alternative.


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## fynn (Sep 19, 2008)

the modle issue is always a problem at some tournys, a freind of mine went to turny with his old school eldar army (all circa 1990's minis) and the TO tried the same bullshit with him, by saying they werent GW minis, untill he showed the TO an old citadel/GW catalog (that he always carries with him), and the to reluctently let him continue, but then tryed to mark his torny score down becourse he used classic old school minis. needless to say my friend never attended that tourny again, along with about 10 other players who where disgusted with the TO's behavior.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

> ahh yes tournie players, I've been vocal enough about these people for years, don't like them, too competitive for a game with toys, and they cheat more than any other kind of player I find.


You know what? I actually agree with you:laugh:


lets face it, the vast majority are just either pathetic middle aged men, or teenage idiots that waste their lives away with pretend games, getting somewhat exited by a little victory with toy soldiers to such an extent that they make winning *everything*. Its these people that often do not play sport or work in teams as if they did then they generally would not act like this and would think more of the participating.

WYSIWYG is good, even when not in tournaments, but things like having to convert your sorcerers if they have Dispell Scrolls to actually have one/two is a joke.


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## primeministersinsiter (May 31, 2009)

I hate that these games are now tourney games. I like playing it with a few beer, some pizza, and some music. If I lose, you know what, no one died.
If you're going to make something into a organized tournement, you should really update all the rules so everone is playing on a level feild.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

My previous rant may be a little harsh, but still, It depends on the tournament and generally how _obsessive_ someone is about it. A little tourny at a school or a local GW/ gaming club isn`t bad, and maybe once in a blue moon go for a cheese-filled force for a major tournament, but gamers that want just cheese, even if it totally ruins any theme their force has and contradicts the fluff is a step to far, like several engines of the gods or plague... furnaces.


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## Nipolian (Nov 4, 2009)

Firstly, have you guys noticed that on the poll so far no one has filled in the "Hey, I do that" section 

Also, I two might have been a little harsh about saying that all tournament players are bad people that completly destroy the fun of warhammer that is certainly not true it is just the ones that are stick out the most to me.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Nipolian said:


> Firstly, have you guys noticed that on the poll so far no one has filled in the "Hey, I do that" section
> 
> Also, I two might have been a little harsh about saying that all tournament players are bad people that completly destroy the fun of warhammer that is certainly not true it is just the ones that are stick out the most to me.


the ones who ruin it for everyone else are always the ones that stick in the mind. If you're playing 3 or 4 games, you're very likely to run into at least one asshole, and that will be what sticks in your mind, not the other reasonably nice players. Tournament players though really do have a higher percentage of assholes - theres something about competition that brings out the worst in some people. But not all. There are also the competitive assholes in pickup games, who want to use their super-powered tournament daemons list in a friendly game. Most people just wouldn't, but there are always those who will.

Some of the horror stories here are interesting to hear, for those of you who posted them, could you tell us which tournaments they happened in? were they official GTs, GW in-store, FLGS or Club tournaments? I think which tourney you go to has a lot to do with how you feel about it. I know that the ones my friends have been to had both a (small, but significant) Composition score and a Sportsmanship score that was added to the main score. Meanwhile, I hear most GTs these days are "anything goes", with only game score meaning anything. This would really change the dynamic from "lets be reasonable, and get good sportsman scores" to "fuck you, that guy doesn't have scrolls modelled onto him, you can't play it" mentality. I think tournament organisers shoulder a lot of the blame (or praise) for the group mentality of their tournaments, with the type of style they foster. Just my thoughts on the matter.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

maddermax said:


> GW in-store


the one in my example was at the GW HQ, a proper tournament run by them for Herohammer Fantasy.


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Everyone loves sweeping generalisations...


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

I believe in what you see is what you get.
It's an excellent rule.
However, if someone paid points for spears, shows me the fact on hard-copy, then I have no problems with it.
Not everyone can afford to buy multiple models, especially at first, in order to figure out how they want to play and so on.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Concrete Hero said:


> Everyone loves sweeping generalisations...


technically isn't saying everyone loves sweeping generalizations a sweeping generalization?


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Nipolian said:


> I have seen a tournament and everybody there are so strict about the rules. In a tournament they wouldnt let a person use a unit because it was equiped with a hand weapon and sheald and not spears. Another time i saw a person not be able to use some people because they where on fanticy baces and not 40k (was the demons). they are just well b****** about every small thing. is there a reason why or are they just being babies.


Both of these things are valid reasons for complaint in a tournament, If you list spears on your army sheet then you should have spears on the model.

and bases, i think letter come on 20mm square for fantasy so it would be possible to bunch them up in a smaller space than if they were on 25mm round so again they should have been on the right bases.

I personally think if your going to the effort of playing the game at a competitive level then you should have the courtesy to have your minis up to scratch.


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## Darkangeldentist (Oct 31, 2007)

Although tournaments can attract the kind of persnickety people that pick on every little thing those people exist everywhere. The only special thing about tournaments is that you might have to play them.

I've played the other extreme and would venture to say they are even worse. The kind of person who expects you to accept a movement tray is actually a unit of plague bearers or that his black undercoated goblins are black orcs and the bare plastic are really night goblins.

Or then there's the person who's only going to pay attention when his mate standing next to him isn't talking and you can only roll dice when they're looking at the table or they won't accept them.

This thread is picking at extremes, tournaments attract one kind. What irritates is that these people are generally supported by the organisers because they follow the letter of the rules.

I prefer it when things are clear and you can tell what something is or what it's armed with by looking at it. I wouldn't stop someone from using units or models just because they aren't 'just so' but it's certainly nicer to play an army that looks the part rather than constantly trying to remember that the unit with blue shields also have spears.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

bitsandkits said:


> and bases, i think letter come on 20mm square for fantasy so it would be possible to bunch them up in a smaller space than if they were on 25mm round so again they should have been on the right bases.


except in the case of daemons where they are on 25mm bases, sure there square, but there still 25mm's, and following the rules of using bases supplied


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## edd_thereaper (Oct 21, 2008)

going back to the first example of the spearmen unit modeled with hand weapons and shields, my empire spearmen are, on paper, equiped with a hand weapon and spear, they don't have the hand weapon modeled onto them yet nobody gives me stick for it

on another note i can take a certain amount of pickyness from players but sometimes it does get to the point where you say "i'm not going to play you, you're just ruining my game you f*** face"

cheers

edd


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## piemaster (Oct 9, 2009)

One of my friends seems a bit too competitive. I heard him going on about how he would have won if the other player hadn't killed his Chaos Lord. That's like saying I would have won in rugby if the other team were rubbish. Perhaps you would have won if you had another turn and I'm not going on about that. What bothered me was how he went on about it. As if he was trying to tell himself that he did win - in his mind - to keep a good W:L ratio.
Grrr


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

I think they just are used to strict rules from tournies and cant help but contiuing to play like they do in tournies in more relaxed situations.

They play to win, and when sombody with an obvious Wraithlord conversion reaches you, only to say its an Avatar is REALLY annoying. it's that kind of thing they cant compensate for with a battle plan, error by the other player, so they trie to minimise error so their plans and stratagies have a higher chance of working.

Some are just to used to cheaters (like a dark eldar player using whyches as incubi, troops, and something else all at once in three separate places AND making up the cmbat drugs rule WITHOUT PAYING FOR IT) and just suspect everyone. 

(I persnally dont, just that player ALWAY cheats, everybody else just beats me fair and square :grin: )

Farseer D


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## brother william (Jan 22, 2009)

i can olny comment on the one tourment that i have been in and it was really really good......... except for one guy he was the biggest F*** Head i have ever played, he complained and complained about how other peoples armylist where cheesy or unfair on any little thing that didnt go his way he demanded that you show him the rule and after he had seen it he would bitch that that was unfair or cheesy. Any game he won was due to how good a player he was and any gane he lost was cheesy , rule , list ect. 

He constantly scored othe players extremly low on there sportsman ship even though most of the guys down at the local club are really sporting and just there to have a good time , Also this same guy is planing to run a WHFB torunament , The proposed rule for this are just full of it they are so bised towards his own army. but other then that i found the tourament to be great fun and i would deffiantly play in another one


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I admit that in friendly games that I do comeplain about cheesy enemy units/rules quite a lot... but I also admit this is envy; my ogres are just very badly dated (eg compare a slavegiant to a new hellpit abomination *shudder* ... in fairness all other 'giants' are now obsolete too, fun though) but to do so in a tournament is just stupid- everyone is meant to be taking the nastiest, beariest, cheesiest units/armies that they can.

TBH lately though its luck which Im disliking more then anything (like the 15-20 passed Ld 6-9 tests for an empire player with 0 non-insane courage fails that wound me up somewhat)... I imagine I might gripe about having similar luck in tournies but other then that everything else really isnt fair game.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

I like to think I'm fairly lenient when it comes to WYSIWYG and other rules. I don't mind people using count-as, as long as the model is fairly close to what it is meant to be representing (no gobbos as SMs). What does annoy me is when people don't tell me beforehand: "Oh i see you charged my tileans with your chaos knights, I forgot to tell you before that they actually have pikes not HW and shields, so I get to fight in 4 ranks with ASF and +1 str...."


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## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

they aren't strict they play the game to the letter no bending of the rules at all


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Thats why there is a good sportsmanship award.

Lets be honest, its the hardcore, Die-hard players who are ruthless that make this game 'nerdy'.

However, it works both ways, It's a tournement, and everyone should know and stick to the rules. As Lord Sinkoran put it.


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## matty570 (Jun 14, 2007)

I must admit although I said I like to see wysiwyg I think there is a limit to it, for example I have empire/space marine/CSM/vampire characters that I have modelled to look good but maybe do not have the exact equipment mentioned, for example my vampire doesnt have a dispel scroll on him (in fact no one does) my empire captain doesnt have the the van horsteins mirror thingy etc.

I will try to make sure that the main details are right, so if they have a lightning claw then they have a lightning claw etc, but some of the smaller things I leave off as I like to change things around a bit, and dont really want to have to mess around.

Also a mate of mine has his IG platoon sgts with bolters (remnant of the old codex) which you cant have in the new rules, he treats it as a bolt pistol and close combat weapon and I have no problem with that at all, and would expect him not to face any problems at a tournament.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> technically isn't saying everyone loves sweeping generalizations a sweeping generalization?


You must have a shit magnet, or something, because why is it ALWAYS you who has bad things occur to you, or someone you know?

I've yet to find people have a problem with me, unless I treat them like the idiot they are, in which case, I'm a "dick", "bastard", "twat", "cunt", "racist", "homophobe", and even a "hairist" on one occasion (well, he was ginger - he was asking for it). 

Seriously, why is that I tend to feel that I'm one of the few people who can have fun doing things by the book at times, and yet at others, make up my own rules.

There are very few on Heresy who make as many variable rules, or create alternate suggestions as much as I do, so you can hardly call me strict.

But yeah, I chose all 4, because all 4 apply to me. 

I mean, after all, why can't I turn up with my cat to a tournament, and call it a Chaos Lord on Dragon?


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## Nipolian (Nov 4, 2009)

See, i have no problem on what people use to represent as long as the bace size is right i have/ my friend have two used sheets of paper with baces outlined because i dont have the money to put into warhamer guys.

but those where friendly battles


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Proxies in a friendly game is one thing... but a tournament is meant to be a pinacle of this hobby (especially official tournies). Demanding that all entrants have fully painted and fully WYSIWYG models gives most players that push to finish painting up their armies, admittedly most tourny players would do this regardless but it would be a little soul destroying (at least for me) if you had just spent hundreds of hours moddling your army and then painting it up be be exact representations of what your army is meant to be... only to find your opponent has just thrown together a few boxes of models and badly undercoated it...

ofc little tournies in a FLGS/GW arent the same scale at all, sure we play WYSIWYG at ours but fully painted models arent needed and the strictness of the WYSIWYG is pretty much just down to weapons/model type and not on talismans/enchanted items (their all in the model's pockets of course). Bad news for my friend who has always proxied his DE black guard... but not at the 1000pt tourny this weekend


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## matty570 (Jun 14, 2007)

Heres a question around this topic, I was thinking of trying to convert a gorger to use as a ghoulkin/terror causing vampire for my VC army. Obviously if I do he will be on a bigger base, but I can only really see that as a disadvantage to myself so would you have problems with playing against my in a tournament situation?

The reason I ask is that base size has come up as an issue a couple of times.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Depends on the tournament... if its a friendly tourny in a FLGS or amoung friends then I would say sure, as long as it looks cool, but for official tournies that would be a big no no.


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## Durzod (Nov 24, 2009)

I've only been involved in our local shop's tournaments and have had primarily good experiences there. We get a few out-of-towners and most of them are fun to play. It'd aleays fun for me to cross swords with a brand new opponent. I think it is this attitude that helps to tone doen the nitpickiness. Of course the fact that I look a lot like theit dad probably has something to do with it.
As for the WYSIWYG schtick I always tell people as long as the front rank is properly equipped who cares? After all, all rhose subsequent ranks are gonna do is volunteer ro be casualties. This allows a player to experiment with various options without getting too badly in debt. I can just see some WYSIWYG Nazi telling me my Skeleton spearmen can't use HW&S unless I have a second unit 'properly' equipped nto replace them with. As long as you have the main items represented, what's the deal? 
This being said, don't expect me to remember which group of 15 armless, headless. flat black Chaos warriors are really Marauders with Great Weapons and which are really Chosen. I make an effort to model my units so my opponent has a reasonable chance of figuring out what they're supposed to be, and I expect the same courtesy in return. Maybe it's an "old guy" thibg.


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## Freedirtyneedles (Oct 22, 2009)

showed up at one of the local game stores to play a friendly game against a dwarf army(typical gunline) we did introductions, and did the set-up thing....all was going well until I put down my chaos warhounds down(I use the doomwolves cause they go better with my nurgle theme) he refused to play me and went on a rant about noobs not using the right models, and then(of course) started insulting my painting and army list. A few days later I found out he was "one of the best" tourney players in the area.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Freedirtyneedles said:


> showed up at one of the local game stores to play a friendly game against a dwarf army(typical gunline) we did introductions, and did the set-up thing....all was going well until I put down my chaos warhounds down(I use the doomwolves cause they go better with my nurgle theme) he refused to play me and went on a rant about noobs not using the right models, and then(of course) started insulting my painting and army list. A few days later I found out he was "one of the best" tourney players in the area.


That sucks. I wouldn't be the least bit sad if all the dickheads like this guy dropped dead. I mean seriously, it's not like you put down a great cannon and said it counts as a unit of warhounds.


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## JokerGod (Jan 21, 2009)

At a local shop we have a group of retards that come to the tournaments. The one time we had a guy playing a Dwarf Slayer Army from an old WhiteDwarf. One of the tournament guys spend half an hour bitching about him running slayers, then got a massacre with his cheesed out Demons army so he could spend another 20min bitching about the slayers being accepted as an army.

I know a very small number of tournament players that go and play, and also win the tournament that are nice, but most are just dicks.


And as far as the demons on square bases, its legal. If you read the rules it states you must use the bases provided or nothing smaller. They are provided with square bases, no where in the 40K rule book dos it state you must have a round base.


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## Ancient Tiel' a fier (May 5, 2008)

That guy sounds like a proper twat. Im a regular tournament player and usually rank in the top third, so i really feel your pain on a lot of the dicks you can meet at these events. Personally i totally see your reasoning for using dire wolves rather than chaos hounds, infact thats a damn good idea i may steal when i build a nurgle army. But yes the problem with tournament style events is that most people are there to win so you get your arseholes, then you get your normal ok guys who start being arseholes because they want to win so bad, then just a few who really dont care win or loose and just want fun games and a great experience (i like to think i fit in here, i usually too pissed to play properly by game 3 anyway).


In answer to the poll. Some are very strict, but most of us expect a reason and not to be too far off the mark to avoid confusion. I think it fair to say that a unit of high elf swordmasters would be wholly inappropriate as skaven giant rats, however swordmasters painted in the right way could be highly decorative empire greatswords. The example above about the dire wolves is totally acceptable for me.


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## Freedirtyneedles (Oct 22, 2009)

just got back from a matach against a skaven player...nothing was painted OR primered. he used proxies for all his core units, used large black bases as his plague furnace AND screaming bells....also proxyed a warp cannon and the plague thrower. I had no clue what I was fighting or charging. Honestly it gave me a HUGE headache and made the whole fight grind on into super boredom. It does grate on me when I work super hard to paint everything before I field it(been playing 2 months) to put my heart and soul into some silly plastic minis only to face a pile of blank bases.


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## Durzod (Nov 24, 2009)

Been there. Done that. We used to have a guy here who was notorious for his "Army of the Week" collection of bases.
As to your dwarf guy, I wonder how big a cow he'd have facing my Corrupt Sisters ( a 40k CSM army using SOB models...Slaaneshi, of course). 
I used to be one of out local shop's top tournament players back when my work schedule permitted, but I've NEVER seen such outrageous behavior. Especially to someone who is essentially a guest. Whatever happened to common courtesy? It's only a game, not a test of manhood!


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

^ That army sounds awesome!
The only time I would allow blank bases to be used would be in a VC summoning army if the guy ran out of zombies/skellies/ghouls.


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## Dar'kir (Jul 11, 2009)

look its a tournament, the gameplay is meant to be competitive and the rules are the rules... deal or dont go


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## fynn (Sep 19, 2008)

but do you want to put up with a shitty opponent, who trys and claims your fully legal army is illegal, jst becourse you havent modeled a unit with, say cc weapons becourse there holding a bolter in both hands?


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## Ancient Tiel' a fier (May 5, 2008)

Its a tricky area because at what point does the totalitarian player accept a conversion. Many of the best models any of us have ever seen are conversions, so how heavy can the conversion be before the heavy application of rules comes in. I agree there have to be standards and exstreme represenation is very annoying, but things like dire wolves being used as nurgle warhounds is entirely acceptable.


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## jasonlotito (May 4, 2009)

fynn said:


> but do you want to put up with a shitty opponent, who trys and claims your fully legal army is illegal, jst becourse you havent modeled a unit with, say cc weapons becourse there holding a bolter in both hands?


At the same time, your making the assumption that this will occur at tournaments. There are many tourneys, and most are pretty open about conversions. Look at the winner of this years Mechanicon, and you can see lots of conversions here.

What I find odd in this thread are the number of people not interested in tournaments, but yet complain about tournament players. Or, people that want to just play beer and pretzel games, but find a problem with tournament players. I can't imagine how one effects the other.

That being said, individual tournaments can be run poorly. Yes, a guy using a unit of shields and swords for a spear unit is going too far. Not putting melta bombs on all your champions, not so much. A guy that has 5 models that all look awesome, but all look the same and one is supposed to be different, maybe a bit much. Consider that there are people that will do that just to gain an advantage.

The generalizations about tourney players is also much. Consider what could be said about non-tourney players. Unpainted models, everything practically a proxy, cox cans for dreadnoughts, empty bases, ignoring basic rules, 8 inch assaults, etc. That's not fun, either. So why would I ever want to play a casual game?

Let's be honest, it doesn't matter what type of game you are playing, either type contain people we dont' want to play with. The difference is that for a tourney, you have to play the person. However, even this is by choice. You don't have to play that guy, just don't frequent the tourney again. Only go to the ones that have good reputations or ones that you enjoy.

Not every tourney player is out to restrict creativity, nor is everyone out to not let you have fun. However, when you spend $20 + other fees with the expectation that people are going to follow the rules, then yes, they should do their best to follow the rules. This means your squad of 10 bolt using guys that all look the same can't contain two meltas in it and "you'll remember which one is which." It's really isn't fair.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

jasonlotito said:


> What I find odd in this thread are the number of people not interested in tournaments, but yet complain about tournament players. Or, people that want to just play beer and pretzel games, but find a problem with tournament players. I can't imagine how one effects the other.


I think its pretty inevitable that players that dont want to play tournies will moan about tourny players: if you dont want to play tournies then its probably because you dont want to play the really competetive jerks (by that I mean over-competetive not just good players)... but whenevre you meet a tourny gamer for a friendly game there is a chance that they could well be one of these types of people- the exact sort you were trying to avoid in the first place, and half the time you cant tell before you agree to play the game.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

I think that the main problem comes from the different objectives that most casual gamers have when compared to tourney gamers.
I am happy to play either type of player but like to know before hand what to expect as its no fun when your opponent expects totally different things than you from a game.
Their are tools in all aspects of life and GW games are no different whatever style of game your playing.
I'm fairly lucky in that the group of freinds I game with are all good players and even though I'm the only one that doesn't do the tourney thing they can switch off the I must win setting when we're having a freindly game and I don't really mind when they ask me to play against whatever powerful list they want to practice with.
As to the rules we always play to standard tourney rules unless its something we've arrainged beforehand (last week we brushed off the old herohammer edition of 40k just for a laugh) Most of my mates armies are converted its just about using common sense wysiwyg is great but to complain about lack of grenades or a ccw when your model is holding a bolter is just anal but but then theres no way you can say a bolter is a missile launcher. Spears etc is slightly different I have a unit of 30 state troops split into 10 swords,10 halberds and 10 spears now as long as the weapon their armed with is the front 10 my freinds have no problem with me switching them between games although I know at most tourneys this wouldn't b acceptable so I'd not try it.


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## jasonlotito (May 4, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> I think its pretty inevitable that players that dont want to play tournies will moan about tourny players: if you dont want to play tournies then its probably because you dont want to play the really competetive jerks (by that I mean over-competetive not just good players)... but whenevre you meet a tourny gamer for a friendly game there is a chance that they could well be one of these types of people- the exact sort you were trying to avoid in the first place, and half the time you cant tell before you agree to play the game.


I can understand that. However, are people really meeting up with people they've had no interaction with before the game and playing? Does it really happen that often? I ask because I could never see myself walking up to someone I don't know and asking for a game.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

jasonlotito said:


> Does it really happen that often? I ask because I could never see myself walking up to someone I don't know and asking for a game.


I've always done that when I play; its a toss up regarding what kind of player your going to meet but playing different people, especially ones you do not know, allows you to experience the unexpected.

If all you do is play friends or people you know, you eventually grow accustomed to their do's and don't and their tactics. Play someone you don't know, and its your planning vs the unknown. To some, its much more interesting, thrilling, and fun to play without the advantage of predictability (in whatever form it might take.)


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yup- I'll play anyone who walks into our FLGS and looks for a game... I try and avoid the smaller kids but if they want a game I'll still play. If it happens to be a vet then Im very happy to play them- running the risk of them being a prick is just a natural hazard.


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## astornfleshlay (Apr 1, 2009)

I'm pretty loose with my rules, but that's because I'm not a tourney player (just love having fun)

For example, what I usually do if I'm using a unit that isn't WYSIWYG is I make sure I disclose any information to my opponent at the beginning of the game (ex. This unit of Night Goblins right here only have hand-weapons, even though they're modeled with spears)

Let's face it, this hobby is WAY too expensive for me to worry about things like buying an extra unit of Night Goblins and applying hand-weapons to them "just in case" I'd want to use them that way.
Not only would that be lame, but it's a HUGE waste of time assembling and painting a unit I "already have" when I really could be assembling and painting something new

That being said though, I'm not the type of player who would throw down a Troll model and say it's a Giant.

I'd say the WORST indiscretion I've done is used some other models of similar base-size as unit fillers in the back rank. An example of this would be taking 30 Dwarf Warriors, but I only actually have 24 models currently (I'll use some Goblin models as the extras.....which is quite blasphemous when you think of the fluff, but it makes it more entertaining)


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## Darker Days (Nov 30, 2009)

I would say a tournament is just that, if you want to play a beer and pretzels fun game stay away from them. It is similar to anything else that is a competition, have a good time, try your hardest, and be professional. Yes in a competition it DOES matter that you have regulation materials, you don't play chess at a competitive level with a knight that looks like a pawn. You can't expect the Tournament Organizer to break rules just because you are unhappy about having to buy more models. 

Tournaments are good if you come and leave with the right mind-set. “Look at all the cool conversions,” “wow that army was tough against my army,” I could make that list a bit better and win with that.” “I learned something I did not know.” “Next year I will beat that guy.” “Lets get a beer you decimated me in 20 minutes.” 

There can be creativity but your opponent must be able to determine what is what just by looking at your unit. This does not mean the guy has to be a douche and say "No you can't use that Bretonian Archer as an Empire Archer." As a TO it is there job to fair and impartial If a guy is being a butt and is trying to pull stuff like that then it is up to the TO to stop that non-sense. The best way for a person to not have an issue is discuss with the TO before the tournament about model approval, then let his opponent know what the models represent before the game starts, worst case slap a label on the movement tray saying what they are. 

If the tournament was not judge fairly there is always a higher power. A forum can be a higher power in case of a store owner not being fair. Posts that let people know what happened can be very effective. That does not mean go cry because you got mud-stomped by a tough army, but that there was some sort of favoritism and you had tried to speak with the Judges and stated your case. Nothing is worse then a cry-baby sore loser, other then maybe a cheater, kind of the same, both annoying. 

If this was just a hobby there would be no rules to follow and people would paint and display there armies like model cars. I say MAN up and play the game for the sake of winning but don’t be a douche and act in an un-sportsman way, be courteous and if the opponent asks you, your thoughts on what he could have done different to beat you (I would not offer advice as it seems a little pompous, wait for the opponent to ask.) and don’t say stuff like play another game or you can’t beat me. I might say it to a friend I just crushed but then again I am his friend then he would hit me in the arm and we would talk strategy and army creation.


P.S. Use magnets on your models’ limbs and weapons to have the capability to change them and save yourself some money.


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## BiOHaTe (Nov 19, 2009)

Are people gonna whine when i have a couple Khorne beserkers with 2 chain weapons? cause basically all CSMs have B pistol and CC weapon. Its just for looks, not to add any extra attack or add to str. (there is no wargear option or rule in the CSM dex about that anyways)


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## Othiem (Apr 20, 2008)

BiOHaTe said:


> Are people gonna whine when i have a couple Khorne beserkers with 2 chain weapons? cause basically all CSMs have B pistol and CC weapon. Its just for looks, not to add any extra attack or add to str. (there is no wargear option or rule in the CSM dex about that anyways)


Bolt pistols you can probably get away with ignoring, but you should at least put a holster on their waist. Plasma pistols should definitely be modeled, since they are optional, and your opponent may feel the need to play differently around them.


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