# The Heart of Iron...your thoughts?



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

So this archaeotech device in Angel Exterminatus is able to heal individuals in stasis. The obvious application would be to try to heal Guilliman. Do you think this is where BL is going? 

I mean, they could write a whole new Ultramarines series about a quest to recover the Heart of Iron.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Not sure it would work on Primarch physilogy or wounds inflicted by warp magic.


----------



## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

Well I wouldn't put it past BL to do this to set up a new series, though it would finally settle the debate on the status of Guillmon in the present


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

I think the Salamanders have the monopoly on questing for preHeresy tech.


----------



## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

The fatal flaw in this line of thinking is that believing that BL or GW have any intention of moving the story forward.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Wusword77 said:


> The fatal flaw in this line of thinking is that believing that BL or GW have any intention of moving the story forward.


Well, I doubt the conclusion of the series would be the restoration of Guilliman. As I recall, the healing effect of the Heart of Iron is really really slow. Even if it is successfully recovered, it might take centuries to heal Guilliman


----------



## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> Well, I doubt the conclusion of the series would be the restoration of Guilliman. As I recall, the healing effect of the Heart of Iron is really really slow. Even if it is successfully recovered, it might take centuries to heal Guilliman


I have to agree with Wusword77, the child in me wishes it were true but I suspect that at any moment some smurf haters are going to come round the corner and blast this thread into oblivion.


----------



## Vulkan Lives!!! (Mar 22, 2013)

It could be possible that a loyalist already found it in 30k (after exterminatis) and Guilliman has been healing for the past 10,000 years. It's supported by the fluff that says he's healing despite it being scientifically impossible. Probably safest to keep its existence and location under wraps anyways


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Far as I'm aware, the Heart of Iron is a life support machine, that heals, not resurrect. It would need to not only heal, but also resurrect seeing as Guilliman is a corpse.


----------



## Vulkan Lives!!! (Mar 22, 2013)

Angel of Blood said:


> Far as I'm aware, the Heart of Iron is a life support machine, that heals, not resurrect. It would need to not only heal, but also resurrect seeing as Guilliman is a corpse.


Isn't that technically a matter of debate though, couldn't it be said he was poisoned fatally but before he was literally deceast of it they intered him in stasis in hopes they'd find a cure in the future?


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I don't see it as ambiguous at all. The Space Marine codex outright states he's dead and in other instances as a corpse. Thought I must hasten to add that there are numerous, _numerous_, threads already covering Guillimans status.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I recall something along the lines of "frozen in the moment of death" 

Does that literally mean he's dead, or does it mean in the moment of death as in in the moment of dying, i.e. on the brink of death 

Why would pilgrims say he's healing if he's dead? Wouldn't they say he's resurrecting if he's dead?


----------



## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> I recall something along the lines of "frozen in the moment of death"


And there are also sources that site his body (current to 40k) as a corpse, notably the Ultramarines higher-ups, the people who would actually know.



> Why would pilgrims say he's healing if he's dead? Wouldn't they say he's resurrecting if he's dead?


'Slowly healing' is far more plausible than 'slowly resurrecting' so that's the myth that gets commonly perpetuated. That doesn't make it true. For more in depth explanations as to why Guilliman is really dead see the several other threads on that, I don't feel like re-posting it all.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> And there are also sources that site his body (current to 40k) as a corpse, notably the Ultramarines higher-ups, the people who would actually know.
> 
> 
> 
> 'Slowly healing' is far more plausible than 'slowly resurrecting' so that's the myth that gets commonly perpetuated. That doesn't make it true. For more in depth explanations as to why Guilliman is really dead see the several other threads on that, I don't feel like re-posting it all.


You could always just link it rather than repost it

Anyway, I probably took part in those threads. I know how you really want Guilliman to be dead as a door knob but it really ain't as clear as you're making it out to be. 

In one of those Guilliman threads, I had a lengthy debate with this dude about whether it's possible for someone to heal in stasis. First I proved that 40K stasis fields tend to slow the passage of time down to a crawl rather than freeze time completely. Now with the advent of the Heart of Iron, it seems that healing is definitely possible in a stasis field. 

The naysayers final argument is that Guilliman is dead and not on the brink of death. Uh...even if he were dead, resurrection isn't out of the question in 40K. It has happened. Cyrene is resurrected in Betrayer. We don't know if resurrection is limited to Chaos sorcery. Perhaps highly advanced archaeotech could produce a similar result with a person kept in stasis at the moment of death...who knows? It depends on what the BL writers wanna do. They've left themselves plenty of wriggle room


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Gullimans state of alive or dead is entirely left open ended, it is not numerous sourced stating he is objecively dead, it is one. And it is from uriel i believe, who in all honesty kbows nothing of gullimans true state of health, nor was he there when gulliman was entombed.

So please do not act as though your opinion is fact, no ome but nlack library knows if he is dead or alive.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Sad to say, but I'll have to pitch in behind Lux. The "moment of death" is ambiguous enough to swing either way.

Plus "death" itself isn't necessarily the end of the road. People die all the time right now only to be resuscitated. Medically dead, anyway.

Then also the only people who really know how a Primarch ticks is the Emperor...and maybe themselves, to one extent or another. There was no one on the scene consciousness enough to determine if Guilliman was fatally wounded or not.

Lastly, even if every surviving Ultramarine believes Guilliman to be dead...what do they know? Besides having this "fact" passed down through time, what do they really know? They, to my knowledge, have no specific knowledge about the weapon that struck Guilliman. They probably know even less about Primarch physiologically than those who were around when Guilliman was wounded.

Whether or not Guilliman is truly dead or not is still debatable. It's not black or white either way.


----------



## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> You could always just link it rather than repost it


Fine. http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=106009
The beginning of this thread includes no less than two sources stating that Guilliman is dead. Dead dead.



> I know how you really want Guilliman to be dead as a door knob but it really ain't as clear as you're making it out to be.


I don't know how they could make it clearer, they explicitly state that he is dead.



> First I proved that 40K stasis fields tend to slow the passage of time down to a crawl rather than freeze time completely. Now with the advent of the Heart of Iron, it seems that healing is definitely possible in a stasis field.


If time is slowed rather than stopped then he would've died of his injuries, as he was either dead when they put him in the stasis or on the literal brink of death, in which case the poison would've been able to kill him during the ~9000 years since. The Heart of Iron already works slowly, putting something slow into the stasis field is going to make it's effect negligible. Whereas the poison is fast acting, so even slowed it would be faster than the Heart. Plus he was poisoned by the anathema, a weapon that apparently just straight up kills it's victims. We have no idea whether the powers of the Heart of Iron would be capable of overcoming the innate deadliness of the anathema. 



> Uh...even if he were dead, resurrection isn't out of the question in 40K.


So? You are not arguing for resurrection. This thread is about whether the Heart of Iron can heal Guilliman, since the Heart of Iron cannot heal dead things it cannot heal Guilliman. If you want to start a different thread about ways in which Guilliman can be resurrected then do so, but it's irrelevant here.



hailene said:


> Lastly, even if every surviving Ultramarine believes Guilliman to be dead...what do they know?


That exact logic can be used to dismiss pretty much any piece of fluff, so it's usefulness in a debate is rather limited. The Ultramarines are the most likely source to know whether Guilliman is dead or not, they say he's dead therefore it is highly probably that he is dead. Plus, I think some of the sources (the codex) state his death as an objective fact. If you wish to simply dismiss the most credible sources of information simply because they disagree with your desires then I can't stop you but it won't help you win any debates about this topic.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> That exact logic can be used to dismiss pretty much any piece of fluff, so it's usefulness in a debate is rather limited. The Ultramarines are the most likely source to know whether Guilliman is dead or not, they say he's dead therefore it is highly probably that he is dead. Plus, I think some of the sources (the codex) state his death as an objective fact. If you wish to simply dismiss the most credible sources of information simply because they disagree with your desires then I can't stop you but it won't help you win any debates about this topic.


How'd this become a personal attack on me?

There's a strong difference between _most credible_ and _credible_. 

We know that apothecaries have the haziest understanding on how the Primarchs work. Combine this with the fact that Guilliman was hit with a non-standard weapon, their conclusion that Guilliman was fatally wounded is more guess work.
~~~~~~~~~

I will admit that the sources make it sound like Guilliman is beyond help. The SM codex states that it is his corpse sitting on the throne.

The Codex Astrates says something else, though. It says that his apothecaries put up the stasis field "as Guilliman died". In other words, before his death completed. Room enough to wiggle.
~~~~~~~~~

I'd be more inclined to fall behind the SM codex as it 1. It's newer and 2. Doesn't directly conflict with the Codex Astartes. Even accepting that Guilliman is a corpse, there's still some room for doubt. As I stated earlier, death is more flexible than we give it credit for. Clinical death is the cessation of breathing and circulation. Even now, we can bring us boring mortals back to life from this death.

I poked around the internet and the best definition I could find of a corpse is basically someone who has died.

Some dodgy work, but despite being a corpse, Guilliman could still be, theoretically, brought back to life depending on how one defines death and corpse.

Looking closer at the sources, I'd say Guilliman is most likely dead. At least from how we understand how our bodies work. Warhammer has enough unknowns left in it to allow a revival of Guilliman if the authors so desired it.

Though I'll admit that's a slippery enough slope to allow anything to happen. Ferrus could come back, if the authors so willed it.

I guess that's one of the hazards of working with in a fantasy universe. Still, I don't believe it's chiseled in stone quite as deeply as you make it out to be.

Just like so many other things, I think the authors deliberately wrote with enough leeway to allow them to do what they want later on. Hence the extra stuff with the miracle of his supposed healing.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Taking the lore at face value, Guilliman is dead and his corpse is preserved in stasis. The Ultramarines themselves believe it, and it is mentioned throughout several sources.



hailene said:


> I guess that's one of the hazards of working with in a fantasy universe. Still, I don't believe it's chiseled in stone quite as deeply as you make it out to be.
> 
> Just like so many other things, I think the authors deliberately wrote with enough leeway to allow them to do what they want later on. Hence the extra stuff with the miracle of his supposed healing.


The only difference between Guilliman's fate, and say, Ferrus Manus's is the fact that Guilliman's corpse has been preserved. The lore features rumours that Guilliman is healing, but also that Ferrus escaped Isstvan V and resides on Mars, both of which are fundamentally refuted by their respective Chapters. But none of us talk about the possibility of Ferrus Manus being alive (or of him being healed) whatsoever, despite rumours also persisting in the lore. 

I agree that the lore is intentionally left murky, as it is with the fates of all Primarchs to varying extents. Ferrus Manus got decapitated, his head presented to Horus, who apparently liked to talk to the skull. But still the lore features rumours that he escaped Isstvan V! Regardless, the lore seems quite final in stating that Guilliman is dead. 

Aside from that, does anyone actually think Guilliman's stasis-field and corpse would be permitted to be tampered with by introducing a device such as the Heart of Iron? On the scale of heresy, that would rank quite high.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Aside from that, does anyone actually think Guilliman's stasis-field and corpse would be permitted to be tampered with by introducing a device such as the Heart of Iron? On the scale of heresy, that would rank quite high.


If Papa Smurf gave the okay, perhaps? I haven't read _Angel Exterminatus_, so I'm unclear on the details of the Heart of Iron, but what if its existence was foretold by the Imperial Tarrot? Or by a vision granted to the UM Librarian? Or some other method of divine inspiration?

From there, a quest to discover it could be made. At that point it wouldn't be all that odd to use it on Guilliman. Maybe.

Maybe the Heart of Iron could be construed as some sort of divine trial for the UMs to overcome in order to reunited with their father, much like the Salamander's and their search for Vulkan's artifacts?

That's the sort of murky gray zone faith and heresy tango together with. It's just the matter of how you see things and how you spin them.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Fine. http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=106009
> The beginning of this thread includes no less than two sources stating that Guilliman is dead. Dead dead.


Eh...all I see is a reference to Uriel Ventris' opinion. I'd also like to see a quote of the line Angel of Blood is referencing. There's also a quote (brought up by Hailene) that Guilliman was placed in stasis _as he died_. 

Even if he were dead (which really depends on the source you're emphasising...there are sources saying he's put in stasis as he dies), there's still the possibility of revival (clinically dead people have been revived in hospitals) and resurrection. 

Heck, Cyrene was resurrected with barely anything left of her corpse, if that can happen in 40K, why can't Guilliman be revived with a body almost perfectly intact?



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The only difference between Guilliman's fate, and say, Ferrus Manus's is the fact that Guilliman's corpse has been preserved. The lore features rumours that Guilliman is healing, but also that Ferrus escaped Isstvan V and resides on Mars, both of which are fundamentally refuted by their respective Chapters. But none of us talk about the possibility of Ferrus Manus being alive (or of him being healed) whatsoever, despite rumours also persisting in the lore.


The only difference (and it's a big one) between Guilliman's case and Ferrus's case is that Ferrus is missing a rather important body part. The guy was beheaded by Fulgrim. His case is a lot more clear-cut. 

In Guilliman's case, we have sources describing him as a corpse. We also have sources saying he was put in stasis "*as he died*". Guilliman's case is definitely not as definitive as headless Ferrus's case (Guilliman's body is still completely intact). 

...and as Hailene has pointed out, *regular human beings have been pronounced clinically dead only to be revived shortly thereafter*. If something like that could happen with a real life human being, who's to say a primarch put in stasis at the moment of death can't be revived



Lux said:


> Gullimans state of alive or dead is entirely left open ended, it is not numerous sourced stating he is objecively dead, it is one. And it is from uriel i believe, who in all honesty kbows nothing of gullimans true state of health, nor was he there when gulliman was entombed.
> 
> So please do not act as though your opinion is fact, no ome but nlack library knows if he is dead or alive.





hailene said:


> Sad to say, but I'll have to pitch in behind Lux. The "moment of death" is ambiguous enough to swing either way.
> 
> Plus "death" itself isn't necessarily the end of the road. People die all the time right now only to be resuscitated. Medically dead, anyway.
> 
> ...


Agreed (wow, for once I'm agreeing with Lux)


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> There's also a quote (brought up by Hailene) that Guilliman was placed in stasis _as he died_...
> 
> In Guilliman's case, we have sources describing him as a corpse. We also have sources saying he was put in stasis "*as he died*".


"As he died". So he's dead then? Finally, we can agree. :wink:

Not, "As he was about to die", the source you are referencing to support you says, "As he died". Which means he's dead and his corpse is preserved. 

If you want to talk about resurrection that's an entirely different subject, but in terms of this thread, you can't heal a dead corpse.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> Eh...all I see is a reference to Uriel Ventris' opinion. I'd also like to see a quote of the line Angel of Blood is referencing.


Don't have a Marine codex anymore so can't check for the others, but here is one quote from the codex, there are more though within it.



> _Within this edifice is the great marble throne of Roboute Guilliman, and upon that throne sits a regal corpse. Though the best part of ten thousand years have passed since his death, the Primarch's body is perfectly preserved. Even his death wounds are visible upon his throat. His mortal remains are preserved from the ravages of time by means of a stasis field that isolates the Primarch from the time-stream. Everything encompassed by the field is trapped in time and can neither change nor decay
> _


_

_Note the words: corpse, death, death wounds, mortal remains and decay.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> "As he died". So he's dead then? Finally, we can agree.


I know you're just playing around, but I'll still bite .

"As" usually means in the process of doing something. "As he crossed the finish line, he..." "As he left, he..." "As he fell, he..."

All very different than say "After he crossed the finish line, he..." "After he left, he..." "After he fell, he..."

In Guilliman's case, "as he died" might mean his major life-sustaining are failing. Perhaps they have all failed a moment before being placed in stasis. Even if that was the case, it may still be possible to resuscitate this fresh corpse.



Angel of Blood said:


> Note the words: corpse, death, death wounds, mortal remains and decay.


As stated earlier, we literally can bring someone back from clinical death. Even now.

Perhaps someone with experience (or at least knows someone with experience) in the medical field could help clarify this point? If someone has died, but is able to be resuscitated, is he a corpse in the period between death and resuscitation? Or is there some other sort of term?
~~~~~~~

Quick question, though. How exactly does the Heart of Iron function, anyway? It's on my to read list, but I've got a backlog to cut through before I can read the book.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

He's not only just dead though, he's got a chaos poison/venom/disease coursing through his veins. An incurable one at that, unless you want the Chaos Gods to heal him, in which case it is. So they need to somehow resurrect him and then cure him of an incurable ailment. Yes we can revive people from death, but it all depends on how they died. This would be like reviving someone after they died of cancer, only worse.

They have no idea how the Heart of Iron works. Though the Captain never died, he was just grievously wounded. Nothing indicates that it could resurrect someone, as it would need to for Guilliman.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> An incurable one at that


Do we know it's incurable? The text says it was more than his Primarch physiology was capable of overcoming, but _incurable_? Could you cite your source on this?



Angel of Blood said:


> Nothing indicates that it could resurrect someone, as it would need to for Guilliman.


Resuscitate. Not resurrect. Theoretically, anyway.

Guilliman either just died or is in the process of dying.


----------



## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Do we know if the poison is still inside of Guilliman? Its a warp poison, so if Guilliman did indeed die just before he was put into stasis, whos to say it didn't just dissipate? There are too many unknowns to claim that it is impossible to revive him. But that can also go the other way. There are too many unknowns to claim that it is even possible at all to revive him. In the end, it is up to GW, as we all know. Will they revive him? Possibly, if it suits the fluff advancement. They would probably end up bringing him back if they were going to bring back some of the other primarchs.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> "As he died". So he's dead then? Finally, we can agree. :wink:
> 
> Not, "As he was about to die", the source you are referencing to support you says, "As he died". Which means he's dead and his corpse is preserved.


No, "as he died" could mean "as he was dying"

This sentence would make sense: "He spoke feebly as he died"
Obviously the speaker isn't dead. Rather, he's in the process of dying. From that sentence alone, we don't know whether the speaker ever completed the act of dying (although it would seem likely). 



> you can't heal a dead corpse.


I'm glad you agree that Guilliman isn't dead  

Hence why it's said that he's "healing" and not "resurrecting" 



Angel of Blood said:


> Don't have a Marine codex anymore so can't check for the others, but here is one quote from the codex, there are more though within it.


That helps your case, but I think the "as he died" wording leaves room to wriggle. 

Furthermore, the "healing" suggestions coupled with (1) the amazing regenerative powers of primarch physiology, (2) the existence of faith-based miracles in 40K, and (3) the introduction of tech like the Heart of Iron are enough to make Guilliman's status rather ambiguous

Also, revival would not be out of the question as I've pointed out. People think he's dead, he might be clinically dead, but as I've pointed out, regular people have come back from clinical death.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well again, as always with this debate(How it keeps cropping up and why I find the compulsive need to step in I'll never know), we're going to have to agree to disagree. The latest and most up to date fluff regarding Guillimans status is the Space Marine codex. In that it outright states he's dead, a corpse, unequivocally and final. If they wanted wiggle room, they would have said 'on the brink of death', 'just before he died' or similar. The fact that they said originally 'as he died' and then in the latests codex changed it to dead, corpse etc, is undeniable proof that he is dead. But as always, people are going to choose to ignore this and carry on believing he is alive or can somehow miraculously come back to life, which I will never buy unless GW themselves introduce an absurd deus ex machina event that brings him back to life, which I am utterly confident they never will.

Guilliman is dead, the codex explicitly says so, unless they retcon that in a new codex or official fluff, then nothing you say will change my mind on this matter. So again, agree to disagree(even though it baffles me how you can all so blatantly ignore what's in front of you.)


----------



## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> (even though it baffles me how you can all so blatantly ignore what's in front of you.)


That's something most humans do.

I personally believe he is dead and will stay dead unless there is some holy miracle from the emperor or unholy miracle from the chaos gods.


----------



## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Just to add my 1p on the subject, I'm going to sit firmly on the fence (with a cushion in case it's spikey).

I think "at the moment of death" is in itself an interesting phrase - What is the moment of death? Is it the moment of brain death or something else? We all know that even at the moment of death in terms of heart beats, the average body (not a Primarch's body) can survive with no heartbeat or breathing for 3 minutes before brain death and some can survive even longer. Due the Primarch's unique physiology it's possible and almost certain that they can survive much longer than this.

Another thing to wonder is how were the rescuers able to know that Guilliman was at the moment of death? Did they know how long he'd been unconscious for? Had they managed to identify what was killing him (other than the throat wound)? Did they even know he'd been poisoned? 

Also, who were his rescuers? Were they UM Apothecaries or were they normal Marines with no medical training? Did they see their Primarch in a state they'd never seen before and have to take a guess on what to do? Did they have to play it safe thinking he was dying?

Depending on the above we also have to wonder if his rescuers had had some information on what it took precisely to kill a Primarch or were they making assumptions (guesses) based on the only information they had available? Did they simply look at his body and wonder what to do? We don't know and as Lux has said we will never know until some more information comes to light to resolve the issue.

I think the phrase "at the moment of death" isn't as cut and dried as it seems as the phrase may have come about as a result of the guesses of RG's rescuers who almost certainly wouldn't have a clue about identifying the "moment of death" in a Primarch.

Personally I'm not bothered if he's alive or dead until more info comes to light. If you held a gun to my head I'd come down on the side of him possibly being alive since his rescuers had no way of accurately discerning how bad his injuries were due to his almost unique physiology and thus they coined the "at the moment of death" phrased based on their best guesses and this opinion has carried forward 10 thousand years until the present time.

However, against this are all the arguments provided by the people saying he's dead do seem to be very strong as well and all are as logical as anything I can say.

That being said, we'll never know until further info is given (if it ever is), however it is fun to speculate


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> Another thing to wonder is how were the rescuers able to know that Guilliman was at the moment of death?


Not quite sure. I'd assume they had him connected to some machines to watch his vitals. They probably put him the stasis field as soon as his vitals crashed. Before then, I'd imagine some miracle or just sheer physical resilience would have pulled Guilliman through.



zerachiel76 said:


> Had they managed to identify what was killing him (other than the throat wound)?


Not 100% sure. The text it self says that "Not even the Primarch's god-like physique could halt the spread of Fulgrim's poison..." Whether that's out of universe narrative or something the apothecaries knew, I'm not sure.



zerachiel76 said:


> Also, who were his rescuers?


UM apothecaries. Not that they would really know what they were doing, since Primarch physiology is more or less a mystery to anyone outside the Emperor, Corax, maybe Alpharius, and maybe Fabius.



zerachiel76 said:


> Depending on the above we also have to wonder if his rescuers had had some information on what it took precisely to kill a Primarch or were they making assumptions (guesses) based on the only information they had available?


Probably just wildly guessing. They really have no idea how Primarchs tick. They really have no idea how Fulgrim's weapon even works. As I said earlier, they probably sat around him and hoped he'd recover. He passed some sort line that they deemed death (cessation of breathing/heart beat, brain activity, something) and then threw up a stasis field.



zerachiel76 said:


> That being said, we'll never know until further info is given (if it ever is), however it is fun to speculate


This I wholeheartedly agree. The Primarchs are an incredible blend of advance science and warp derived power. I wouldn't count them out unless they've been dismembered, atomized, or had their brain destroyed somehow.

Or pronounced dead by someone who really knows how they tick.

So is Guilliman _really_ dead? At the moment, probably. Could an author credibly have him come back? I think so. I wouldn't go so far as to say one side or the other is ignorant or ignoring reality. There's enough room for doubt either way.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

hailene said:


> So is Guilliman _really_ dead? At the moment, probably. Could an author credibly have him come back? I think so. I wouldn't go so far as to say one side or the other is ignorant or ignoring reality. There's enough room for doubt either way.


Pretty much sums up my stance on the whole matter as well

I just find it weird that some people are so adamant that he's dead and unrevivable. Honestly, there's more than enough wriggle room for an authour to bring him back if BL were so inclined

...even the word "death" could refer to different things: brain death, clinical death, presumed death


----------



## Saul Tarvits (Dec 1, 2016)

*my Input*

As established in the black library stories the death of a primarch is always accompanied by a sudden release of vast quantities of energy (i imagine it in a similar fashion to the death of an immortal in Highlander). This is established at the deaths of Ferrus Manus and Alpharius.

If Gullieman is truly dead then their would have been the same release. Personally i feel he isn't yet dead as i'm pretty sure there is no mention of this release in the fluff. As a practical reason for his continued existence I think you only need look at GW's bias towards the Ultramarines. I'm fairly confident big papa smurf will be back in the land of the living before the end of the 41st millenium.


----------

