# Warriors of Chaos 8th Edition Thoughts



## The Son of Horus

One of the most overriding questions I've had about 8th Edition has been how the new edition will change how Warriors of Chaos play. Now that I've had a chance to sit down and study the new rulebook in depth, here's what stands out to me.

-Chaos Knights seem to have lost their edge in a serious way. I'm not actually sure they're a viable unit due to the Steadfast rule. If you could realistically afford a unit of 10, then they start to be better, I think, but since units with more ranks are functionally Stubborn, I'm not sure what point there is to having a heavy cavalry unit thats job is to be able to smash through in one turn of brutal, overwhelming combat.

-No longer being able to pack a "golf bag" for Warriors changes some things, as well. One of the strengths of the army was that you could give Warriors a two-handed weapon of some description and a shield, and use either the hand weapon and shield or the halberd/greataxe as the situation warranted. Since any special weapon must be used in favor of a hand weapon now, there's a distinct change in the flexibility that has been a staple of Warriors of Chaos.

A couple things on the weapons do stand out to me, though. With the reworking of the Frenzy rules, GW clearly doesn't want you passing out shields to your Warriors of Khorne. I still think the point of armor the shield provides is worthwhile since the unit still fights with the same number of attacks as any other god's unit with two hand weapons; however, the "parry" bonus is lost on the Frenzied units. It'll remain to be seen whether two hand weapons or halberds will become the weapon of choice for Warriors of Khorne, or if shields will still prove to be a viable option for them. 

-Great weapons most certainly have lost their edge with Warriors of Khorne (and everyone else, really, but greataxes on berserkers has been a very popular option), since everything always fights at its Initiative. Passing out the great axes wastes the Initiative 5 that has made Warriors so deadly in protracted combats in the past, and means that they'll be forgoing striking first most of the time in the new rules if they're wielding great weapons. Halberds clearly have become the superior weapon for the mortal servants of the ruinous powers, as two-handed implements go.

-Warriors of Tzeentch under the current (7th) rules are lackluster at best. However, with a shield in 8th Edition, they're actually a fairly tough nut to crack, and put up as good a fight as any other Warriors of Chaos. A 3+ armor save followed by a 5+ ward from the shield is nothing to sneer at. While magic has been seriously altered, I think the Lord of Change is on the rise with mortals. 

-Forsaken. Forsaken have been a terrible unit, largely because they're slightly overcosted. Thematically, they're very cool, though, and given the changes in how charging works, their higher move value might actually mean they'll find a place in Warriors of Chaos armies now. Their lower armor compared to Warriors seems less problematic when you consider that most things have lost a point of armor due to the change in shield rules, to boot. Since Knights seem very iffy under the new rules, Forsaken might actually fill that gap nicely, as they're not appreciably slower.

-Marauders. Marauders in general have never been particularly impressive to me. However, the emphasis 8th Edition has placed on huge units may change their utility from simply being cannon fodder to being a valuable line unit. Marauders might actually be able to use the Steadfast rule to their advantage, and hold enemy units in place so the Warriors can get an advantageous charge. As it's currently stood, having a unit of Marauders that was much more than a one-turn flail/great weapon missile hasn't amounted to anything, so it'll be worth seeing if the Marauders will function as they've really been intended to under the new rules. Overall, I do think they're much more viable as a main line unit, though.

-Marauder Horsemen. Marauder Horsemen may actually take over some of the Chaos Knight duties, oddly enough. They're cheap enough that you can afford to bring a unit of 10, and with flails, they hit just as hard in the first round of combat as the Knights (albeit with one less attack each.) Given the heavy hit the effectiveness of cavalry seems to have taken in the 8th Edition rules, relatively inexpensive horsemen might be able to skirt around the inherent disadvantages cavalry face (namely, the Steadfast rule.) Keep an eye on Marauder Horsemen, I think-- they may become a staple of competitive armies.

-Chosen. Chosen have always been an excellent unit. A lot of the same changes that effect basic Warriors units apply to them, but due to the army composition changes, you can actually field MORE Chosen than you previously could. However, I'm not sure that they're going to be worth bringing over "basic" Warriors. The 8th Edition rules seem to heavily favor large units, and you're flirting with 300 points for a unit of 10 Chosen in a lot of cases-- not something that's necessarily cost-effective under the new rules. Rather than being an infantry version of a death star unit, the Chosen may be relegated to a supporting task, or possibly even replaced as a staple special choice by Forsaken, which I really think may shine under the new rules. 


Overall, I think the new rules are hit and miss for Chaos generals-- our character allotment has changed quite a bit, and unlike some armies who can spam 40-point Heroes, we're still looking at 150-200-point Exalted Heroes. The consistent strength of units of Warriors will likely come to the fore even more, I think, to make up for what's ultimately a diminished number of highly effective characters. Finding a replacement for Chaos Knights, who I really don't see being effective under the new rules, will also be a challenge, as the role they played in virtually every Chaos army was relatively vital. 

Please, feel free to chime in, fellow Chaos Lords-- I'm curious what the community at large thinks about how the new edition will change our armies of the blasted north.


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## mynameisgrax

With the new rules, I think Marauders have taken over for best killiness, but Chaos Warriors still fill the niche of being an incredibly resilient unit. As a result, my favorite setup for Marauders is 30 with full command and great weapons. My favorite setup for Chaos Warriors is 18-25 with shields, mark of Tzeentch, halberds, musician, and standard. If you have the points, the banner of endless rage is also nice.

Chosen are a better choice then ever, with the new rules. My favorite setup is 18-25 with shields, mark of Nurgle, halberds, full command, favor of the Gods, and the banner of endless rage. I chose Nurgle over tzeentch because it will cause enemies that normally have WS 3 to only hit them on 5's. With the favor, you'll also be very likely to roll a result that will make them even tougher than normal!

Ogres with great weapons are now a solid choice. They kill about as much as Chaos Knights, while costing about 2/3 the cost. They aren't as tough or fast as the Knights, and they attack after their opponent, but they're still a bargain.

What really lost out are the units that don't have standards. Most of the missions revolve around your standard bearers one way or the other, and only units with standards can claim objectives. As an additional bonus, standards now only give your opponent 25 points if they're caught. 

As a result, the units that can't take standards, like Forsaken, Trolls, Chaos Spawn, Giants, and Chariots, all got less useful (although Chariots got other boosts from the new codex).


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## Barnster

As I've not seen the new rules in detail I won't go over the top here but, aren't cavalry getting a tunder charge rule? this shouls help the knights and horsemen. 

I think the ogres get the biggest boost with their stomp, and same with the giant, DOs and DOSs 

The hardest place chaos get hit is the characters, all our characters are really expensive, so less magic and less super killy characters


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## Aktar09

haven't seen the new rules and so, though i and my knornate army dread to ask . . .
what have they done to frenzy?


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## Creon

I think it's "no parry bonus". The Parry bonus is a 6+ ward. This is for HW/shield combination. It replaces the +1 armor.


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## jigplums

i dont think great weapons have become untakeable.

imagine you have 40 warriors, 10 wide.
your enemy strikes first, your pretty tough, lets say they have 40 attacks, 20 hit[4+] 7 wound[5+] and you save[4+] 3. 
you attack back with your great weapons, 26 hit if you have better ws, and about 21 wound at str6 so -3 save.

i think you win that fight


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## Durzod

Creon said:


> I think it's "no parry bonus". The Parry bonus is a 6+ ward. This is for HW/shield combination. It replaces the +1 armor.


 You are also not required to charge if you pass a LD test. But if you fail you have to charge the closest target.


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## Dave T Hobbit

Durzod said:


> You are also not required to charge if you pass a LD test. But if you fail you have to charge the closest target.


Does having to charge the nearest only apply if you fail the test, i.e. could you choose to charge but pick another unit?


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## Sethis

Yes, if you pass the Ld, you can charge any legal target instead of the closest one (or not charge at all).

Played against a knight-based WoC army today, and got raped. Admittedly, my Level 4 killing herself on turn one with a Misfired Purple Sun wasn't a good way to begin. I might have done better if I'd managed to pass a single leadership test (which I didn't) but even so, the high Initiative of Knights and their mounts (and stupid Marks) means they are still very choppy and heavily armoured enough to take some hits back. You're not going to break people on the charge as much, but they will happily spend two turns carving through anything that isn't combat-specialists.


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## The Son of Horus

Sethis said:


> Yes, if you pass the Ld, you can charge any legal target instead of the closest one (or not charge at all).
> 
> Played against a knight-based WoC army today, and got raped. Admittedly, my Level 4 killing herself on turn one with a Misfired Purple Sun wasn't a good way to begin. I might have done better if I'd managed to pass a single leadership test (which I didn't) but even so, the high Initiative of Knights and their mounts (and stupid Marks) means they are still very choppy and heavily armoured enough to take some hits back. You're not going to break people on the charge as much, but they will happily spend two turns carving through anything that isn't combat-specialists.


That's interesting. I have been debating what I'll do with my Knights when 8th comes out-- as it stands, I use them as a HULK SMASH! unit lead by my Lord on a juggernaut. If they're still able to chop through in a couple rounds, they're still usable. But if they're not able to cut through in less than three rounds, it seems like the points might as well just go into a unit of Warriors.


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## Sethis

Well a unit of ~6 knights with a Lord on Juggernaught got charged by 18 Grave Guard and ate them like I eat KFC.

Fast, messy, and then looking for more.

Nice thing is that you are now just as good on the charge, being charged, and locked. Fundamentally there is no difference between the three states to Cavalry that doesn't use Lances.


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## cain the betrayer

yey there is still hope for my beloved but ugly painted chaos knights:biggrin:


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## Lord Sinkoran

the steadfast rules sounds like utter bullshit. a unit of heavy cavalry should be able to punch through infantry easily.


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## Sethis

Have you ever seen what happens when heavy cavalry charge Spear/Pikemen? Braveheart depicts it pretty well...


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## NagashKhemmler

Of all armies Chaos have fared the worst in 8th edition.

*Move to Percentages*
Chaos can't get more choices as a result of percentages, if anything we get less choices, our choices were always so expensive that to get say, 4 specials was usually a stretch as it was. Our heroes being so expensive work out being the same in number, or less than previously, a big minus when you think that you're fighting 15 goblin warbosses.....sure they such but that many of them will take their toll.

*Loss of the charge*
We needed this to make the most of our units, sure they were slow but with careful maneuvering you charged and broke units, chaos relied on wiping out the front rank to be cost effective. Now you have to weather inodinate amounts of missile fire due to firing in two ranks (nfi why GW did that given how OP gunlines are already...) then when you finally charge the 1-2 blocks they have, you can't avoid casualties. Which means your poor warriors won't be even slightly cost effective, where is the 18pts of value when you fight an orc block worth sweet FA points, but by the time you kill it they knock out 5-6 warriors. 

*Stubborn*
Now when you attack a unit, you have to waste time slugging it out, coupled with travel time, your warriors will likely fight/kill one unit a game. On top of that, warriors will never have more ranks than almost any army out there, so the odds of them breaking enemy units by that virtue is slim to none, it comes down to a war of attrition, warriors fail at that, that much is certain.

Thankfully the hellcannons are better now which will help me fight longrange better than anyone except bretonians (trebuchet). My chaos lord on dragon is now un-doable except at about 2500pts and not properly until 3000 and then it's my entire lord allowance . The changes to forests and cannons means the dragons life will be short lived indeed, forests no longer block line of sight and don't offer cover to monsters. Cannons now also hit the rider and mount every time, which is pretty bad for anyone who likes a big monster, monsters in general will become unviable now I think, with the focus going towards units as GW wanted to milk more cash. Monsters were cheap for how many points they provided, so it seemed obvious that monsters would get hated on.


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## neilbatte

Chaos have benefited as much as any army with the new rules.
While you wont always break infantry on the first turn your good ws,init,attacks will see you cut through nearly any other core choice and your save will help you shrug off return attacks.
While units of 40+ chaos warriors are unlikely do you really need them as each warrior is twice as good as pretty much all basic infantry.
Percentages shouldnt affect your army as much as you expect half of your army can be from the character section and as your hero's are in most cases better and there is not so much need to max out on casters you should be able to win with them Quality over quantity.
Warriors have good initiative and an excellent armour save when combined with the highest WS of any normal trooper how many casualties are you really expecting to take before or after you decimate rank after rank of lowly state troops or orcs.
You can now spam marauders with great effect if you are worried about being outnumbered and your warriors still out class most peoples special choices.


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## Khorothis

From what little knowledge and wisdom I possess, I think that we can no longer spam Tzeentchian Sorcerers on Discs (are Discs still a good idea btw?) and charge our laser as we used to, but focus on few characters but they must be carefully geared so they could make the most difference. For instance, instead of two Sorcerers in a 1000 point list (pretty standard methinks), you could take a Sorcerer Lord with Enchanted Shield (250pts) and Lore of Death and let him work his magic.

Another thing I noticed is that fielding Slaaneshi Marauders is going to be a must, since we simply can't buy enough Warriors that would resist the zerg rush of horde armies, let alone beat them. So I think that Marauder blocks will be necessary in the future, but not as a replacement of the Warriors, but more of a "delivery system", so to speak, so that our opponents will have to decide between grinding the meatshield of frostbitten vikings or blast away our Warriors. Focus fire could achieve either goal, but will probably fail in saving the army's arse, since the other half of our forces will get there and cut them to pieces, either with the math of Marauders or the might of Warriors.

Regarding our Special choices, I think that if our Marauders and Warriors can deal with fleshswamps, then our Chosen with Halberds can deal with their more interesting units. Alternatively, we could use still Chariots to run over them, or perhaps the Forsaken that seem to be favoured by the gods of the 8th edition. And it is reassuring that our Warshrine remains a solid choice as ever. 

The Gods seem to be more balanced now, all of them have their use, you just have to find the right place. For instance, Marauders are still best with MoS, since they're cowards.  Warriors need a little more hitting power in terms of numbers, so halberds (or maybe 2xCCWs?) and a MoK would be best, especially with their great Ld that could mitigate the ill side effects of Frenzy. Or you could go the other way and increase their survivability with Shields and MoT. MoN looks like a good idea almost everywhere thats not a Marauder but it will cost you a lot of points.

Do tell me if I'm right or wrong, I'm curious.


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## NagashKhemmler

I don't think marauders will become necessary to be honest, they just aren't really worth it, crappy survivability, crappy damage dealing, just crappy in general.

To be honest the biggest dissuasion for me with marauders is they look like some BDSM fetish gone wrong, can't stand the models as a general rule, I got chaos for the massive and cool looking brutes that are chaos warriors.

Currently I'm running with (8th){2500}
24 warriors
20 hounds
sorcerer of slanesh with spell fam, steed slanesh, roar
10 knights
2 hellcannons
chaos lord on dragon
exalted hero bsb

So far it's worked really well, slanesh magic is the best I find (personal opinion) as it manipulates the flow of battle and the top spell allows no saves (great for raping daemons down ). I want to try to swap 3 chariots for the 10 knights, gives me 12 wounds, T5 and a 3+ save, potentially more survivable.


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## Sethis

NagashKhemmler said:


> *Move to Percentages*
> Chaos can't get more choices as a result of percentages, if anything we get less choices, our choices were always so expensive that to get say, 4 specials was usually a stretch as it was. Our heroes being so expensive work out being the same in number, or less than previously, a big minus when you think that you're fighting 15 goblin warbosses.....sure they such but that many of them will take their toll.


I don't see any particular loss here. I will happily take one Level 4 mage over four Level 1s any day of the week. Just because you can't field a half dozen characters does not make your army worse. Elves of any kind can't spam characters either, and it doesn't hurt them. In 2500pts you can easily have a Sorcerer and 2 combat characters, no problem. That sounds fine to me.



NagashKhemmler said:


> *Loss of the charge*
> We needed this to make the most of our units, sure they were slow but with careful maneuvering you charged and broke units, chaos relied on wiping out the front rank to be cost effective. Now you have to weather inodinate amounts of missile fire due to firing in two ranks (nfi why GW did that given how OP gunlines are already...) then when you finally charge the 1-2 blocks they have, you can't avoid casualties. Which means your poor warriors won't be even slightly cost effective, where is the 18pts of value when you fight an orc block worth sweet FA points, but by the time you kill it they knock out 5-6 warriors.


The loss of the charge has benefited Chaos almost as much as Elves. Now you are just as good at fighting in all circumstances. If you get charged by other infantry, so what? You're still striking first almost all the time anyway. If you do get the charge, you just get +1 combat res, which is nice but not essential. Finally you are armed/armoured/tough enough to beat the snot out of basic block infantry, and you only need about 2 ranks to do it. With Marks you're still among the best heavy infantry in the game, and you're a *core* choice. Most other armies don't have infantry blocks with better than a 3/3/3/3/1/3/1/7 profile until they hit Special.



NagashKhemmler said:


> *Stubborn*
> Now when you attack a unit, you have to waste time slugging it out, coupled with travel time, your warriors will likely fight/kill one unit a game. On top of that, warriors will never have more ranks than almost any army out there, so the odds of them breaking enemy units by that virtue is slim to none, it comes down to a war of attrition, warriors fail at that, that much is certain.


You're still going to be winning most rounds of combat, and unless he has a character in the unit (that you should be challenging and killing, or attacking with more than 1 unit of warriors) he's only going to be Ld 7 or 8 and will on average break after 2 lost combat rounds. No, you can't steamroll someone easily any more. It doesn't mean you now suck. You're hitting and wounding most other infantry on 3s, and they're hitting on 4s and wounding on 5s. They get 5/6+ saves, and you get 4/5+. Statistically, you win that war of attrition pretty convincingly.



NagashKhemmler said:


> My chaos lord on dragon is now un-doable except at about 2500pts and not properly until 3000 and then it's my entire lord allowance . The changes to forests and cannons means the dragons life will be short lived indeed, forests no longer block line of sight and don't offer cover to monsters. Cannons now also hit the rider and mount every time, which is pretty bad for anyone who likes a big monster, monsters in general will become unviable now I think, with the focus going towards units as GW wanted to milk more cash. Monsters were cheap for how many points they provided, so it seemed obvious that monsters would get hated on.


Dragons were always meant to be incredibly rare anyway. Now they simply fit the fluff. I don't see a problem with not allowing some of the most scarce creatures in the Old World to be included until 3000pts or so. Also, the stats of the dragons will probably be altered when you get a new codex, for example the Horned Fire Dragon (that you can transform into with the 6th spell in Lore of Beasts) is 8/0/8/8/8/1/8/10 profile. Nasty piece of work.


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## Asmodeun

That's a good breakdown you've got going there.


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## Cheese meister

i think marauders are viable a cheap unit of 40 with flails mark of khorne will hurt thats 50 s5 attacks hitting most core infantry on 3's wounding on 2's meaning 33 hits and about 28wounds with-2 modifier to armour not bad for a 230point unit imo at i4 to then you charge in with your warriors knights


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## Gigantor

Cheese meister said:


> i think marauders are viable a cheap unit of 40 with flails mark of khorne will hurt thats 50 s5 attacks hitting most core infantry on 3's wounding on 2's meaning 33 hits and about 28wounds with-2 modifier to armour not bad for a 230point unit imo at i4 to then you charge in with your warriors knights


My understanding of the horde rule (ranks 10 models wide) was that they get to fight with 1 more rank. so regiments with spears will get to make 40 attacks, but I think 40 marauders would just get to make 30 attacks, but that still kicks ass.

I think that as much as everyone talks about having these huge blocks of infantry, it will be interesting if that many make it to that table top or even painted...


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## Sethis

I think for Marauders it'll be "spray black, basecoat clothes Bestial Brown, basecoat skin [skin colour of choice], basecoat weapons metal, wash with Devlan Mud". Things like Elves are a little trickier.


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## Cheese meister

sorry you only get 40 attacks your 0front rank gets 02 a0ttacks each mok


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## neilbatte

Marauders have the potential to be one of the better core infantry units in the game
although most chaos players won't see it as theyre not ws5 killing machines in massive suits of armour.
With WS 4 and I 4 theres a good chance of going first and hitting what your aiming at couple that with some good weapon options such as flails and a decent mark you should be laying down some serious hurt long before you get hit back.
Poor ld is fairly easy to ignore with the right mark of chaos or the battlestd rerolls so there is less change of them running away and there's always the chaos warriors for anything they can't handle.


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## OldHat

I am going to agree with the Marauder comments thus far. That is what I am working on right now - Marauder spam. Of course, I will need to really work on those ugly models with some GS and bits, but otherwise, what is not to like? Throw them into a 10x4 formation, give them Flails and MoK. That is 40 attacks with a whole rank that can be eaten up without a loss of combat effectiveness (concerning attacks). Against the avg WS3 and T3 guys, with say a 5+ save, that is easily what? 15+ dead enemies?

The Knights seem too costly, but for a hard-hitting flank unit, I am considering 10 Marauder Horsemen with MoK and Flails (trend?) to put down 15 hits or to chase down Warmachines in the backfield and use the I4 and mobility to put them down.

Wulfrik is now a nice option, too, with the ability to put a 40-man Marauder unit into someones flank - meaning they may well bunch up in the middle a bit more than normal, giving us a better chance to hit flanks and constrict their movements.

I think a single Sorcerer Lord now is suitable, with the 12PD/DD cap. No sense in overdoing it, when you can't do all that much. I still think MoT is best, even with the buffed out Lores in the new rulebook. That bonus is too good to pass up and hell, Pandemonium just got way better, right? Gateway is still pretty good too. 

Anyhow, I am rather excited about WoC, I think they have a lot of good stuff going for them.


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## Cheese meister

yuo can make a tzeentch lord get between +7 and 9 to cast bam 2 dice casting spells on average of 14+


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## Dave T Hobbit

Just read the FAQ

Not sure about the Lores of Chaos: on the one hand, we have been denied a special signature spell and the ability to cast at varying levels; on the other hand the casting numbers have not changed so lots of dice.

Also, the change to Book of Secrets interests me; I might consider a Level 1 Nurgle Sorcerer with Lore of Death; particularly if they get the signature spell for LoD as well as a spell form the list.

My biggest niggle though is the amount of ink they used removing references to spells that are only there as an example of a type of spell, e.g. Forked Lightning. If they wanted to make it longer there are many things they could have said.


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## giberz

I thought that with the coming of 8th edition, it would be a great opportunity to start fantasy again. I also like many of you here decided to go with warriors of chaos, i don't yet have the army book (Will be getting it next pay day) but i did make a list using the stores copy and played a 1000pts battle. My list consisted of roughly this
Exalted Hero - MOK, Juggernaut, Extra hand weapon, Sheild (for the versatility)
22 Chaos Warriors - Champion
5 Chaos Knights, Champion, MOK
Dragon Ogre Shaggoth
Or something like this.
I found this list a very usful list using 8th rules. I went against vampire, the warriors ended up slogging it out from turn 2 against a unit of 50 skeltons, The knights along with the hero smashed a unit of 15 grave guard while shaggoth chomped a unit of crypt gouls and a corpse cart.

What does this mean?
Well, the monsters 'Thunder Stomp' is devestating, D6 extra HITS made at normal Strength at the end of the combat, it can devestate the unit, they may not benefit from cover, but put your head down and get into combat and you will kill.

I was slightly underwhelmed by the warriors, although they were chomping down on over double their number with more being ressurected each turn, and by the end of last turn it was just the enemy standard bearer left against 16 of my warriors. I got out magiked (obviously) But with the dispel dice created without having casters, it is now possible to stand up against magic heavy lists. 

Hope this helps!


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## Khorothis

"Q. Does the Infernal Puppet work on friendly Wizards too? (p114)
A. Yes."

I'm seriously going to make some Slaaneshi Sorcerers on super-fast mounts and a banner saying "72 VIRGINS HERE I COME". I mean this is just asking for it! All the while the Tzeentchian Sorcerer Lord stands in the back and laughs his ass off. :laugh:


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## ManOnTheMooney

I got the rulebook myself a little while ago, and after reading it a bit I'm trying to decide what to go with for my warriors. I was originally going to go with shields+mark of khorne, mix durability with extra damage. This obviously isnt possible anymore, so I'm thinking one of the following three:

Mark of Khorne and Two-Hand weapons, ridiculous amount of attacks.

Mark of Khorne and Halberd, this would be great for awarding no saves to the enemy. (minus parry save)

Edit: Went through the math, Halberds would be better, though purchasing them and removing the already glued single weapons will be a pain...
Edit2: Seeing as halberds are single handed on models, maybe I could keep the single weapons on as well, allowing for switching between the two ideas? Think they'd allow it in tournaments? If not what am I supposed to put in the second hand ?

Mark of Nurgle and Shield. This would make for basically a rock wall type unit. most would hit on a 5+, and wound on a 5+ now, coupled with a 3+ armor save and the parry save. 

Anyone have any specific thoughts or comments? I really am stuck and unsure as to which one I am going to pick...


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## Khorothis

Have you considered MoT with shields? 3+/5++ in CC sounds pretty neat to me, especially when your Warriors bump into something mean. Or go for Nurgle with shields, that should keep you safe(er) from big numbers. I don't think that gearing Warriors for extra asskickery is a good idea since if you spam Warriors for your Core (and you seriously must decide which of the two are you going to pick methinks) there'll be very few of them (in comparison to most cheap Core units) and those few must survive for as long as possible. They kick enough ass already in CC, but they'll always be an anvil type of unit, you'll have to pair them up with something that hits like crazy and lives long enough to tell the tale. 

For this job I'd consider Khornate Chariots, since they're no longer vulnerable to high S hits and they're quite spammable, and now also ItP and Frenzy is no longer a problem. Or maybe go for Tzeentchian Warshrines to beef up your Warriors to ridiculous heights and then send them forward because they're monsters now (even though the bloody FAQ took their Thunderstomp away) and have a 4+/3++ at their disposal.


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## blackspine

NagashKhemmler said:


> To be honest the biggest dissuasion for me with marauders is they look like some BDSM fetish gone wrong, can't stand the models as a general rule, I got chaos for the massive and cool looking brutes that are chaos warriors.


Buahah!
That's the same reason that originally dissuaded me from Chaos Warriors. The ridiculous Marauders, that I now see as an integral part of any army. 
I've seen some great and easy conversions for these guys using the "empire flagellants" bodies' and the marauders arms and heads ( & bits). It gives them that 'chaos terror' look that they lacked as the 'roided out swarzenegger' look.

While Chaos Knights lost their 'absolute juggernaut' award with 8th ed, there is still a ton they can do very well. If they hit the flank of many units, they will cause a world of hurt. They can even do stupendous amounts of hurt to other 'special' units and lone heros.
Side note: there's new plastic Juggernauts coming out for chaos, so that could help in the model department.


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## LukeValantine

Has anyone mentioned how much better marauders with GW's, and mark of khorne are now. For around 6 pts each you can get 21 str5 WS4 attacks (With a frontage of 7), and the only way to reduce this number is to kill around 10+ models before they can strike. Oh did I mention their almost 1/3 the price of a warrior. I have run the numbers, and even without a save, they will beat out most empire/ork infantry/cavalry by 3CR against equivalent pts worth of models.


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## Dave T Hobbit

LukeValantine said:


> Has anyone mentioned how much better marauders with GW's, and mark of khorne are now.


Hmm... maybe my Marauders with Great Weapons might keep them; do the numbers till look good for non-Khorne Marauders, or do they need the extra attack to tip it over into positives?


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## LukeValantine

They do require the extra attacks to win, since with a frontage of 7 you get a extra 7 attacks. Still without the mark of Khorne on average you will out kill empire spear men by 3-4 kills.


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## Khorothis

I'm not as much of a fan of GWs and Flails as I used to be, given the new to-wound chart. To use a rather well known 40K comparison, the Khorne Berzerkers don't need that Power Fist to cut a Chimera to pieces, all they need is their Furious Charge and their shitloads of attacks and given the numbers theres bound to be enough penetrating and glancing hits to turn it into scrap metal. So I'd try MoK+AHW for Marauders and go chop-chop.


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## LukeValantine

You know that would be good advice if.... MARAUDERS COULD TAKE AN ADDITIONAL HAND WEAPON, but as most WoC player know they can't.


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## Khorothis

LukeValantine said:


> You know that would be good advice if.... MARAUDERS COULD TAKE AN ADDITIONAL HAND WEAPON, but as most WoC player know they can't.


=O I totally forgot, I think too much about my Beastmen, my Gors are going to have AHWs so thats probably why mixed them up.

Though I'm still shocked that MARAUDERS can't have AHWs. How retarded is that?


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## LukeValantine

I know its kinda goofy that vikings warriors can't go berzerker style, and use two hand weapons. Still I guess they didn't want WoC players to have access to a 6t pt models with 3 attacks each. After all other armies pay a premium for that many attacks even at strength 3.


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## Dave T Hobbit

LukeValantine said:


> ...without the mark of Khorne on average you will out kill empire spear men by 3-4 kills.


So Great weapons are still marginally worth it for, say, Slaanesh Marauders? Or has a 3 kills advantage been fizzled away by the new rules?


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## Sethis

I wouldn't bother with Great Weapons at all on troops with no armour and a relatively high Initiative value. Their advantages over basic humans is the extra point of WS and I, meaning that you strike first, and more easily. Great Weapons negate one of those two advantages and offer only one advantage over flails (which give the same bonus with no penalty) - they last for every round of combat. Given their utter lack of armour, Marauders do not perform well in protracted combats anyway. Better to play to their strengths by being cheap and cheerful hard-hitters, with a unit of 30-40 with Flails.

This holds even truer if the enemy shoots them at all and knocks them down to ~20 models. If you then try to fight a combat, you'll lose 3/4 of the unit before you even strike.


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## LukeValantine

Flails used to be my favorite choice for marauders... used to. The fact remains that in the current rule set you need staying power as sethis said once you reach the enemy you will only have around 20 of the original 40 (if you face any army with ranged attacks). Hence the enemy really doesn't give a damn if you strike first, since almost all armies will receive the charge with a large brick of infantry. Seriously flails just don't shine like they used to. Also without mark of Khorne even a 40 man unit of marauders with flals will only kill 4-5 guys if you keep the traditional frontage of five. While the returning attacks from even the most mediocre of empire soldiers will only kill around 1-2 less marauders meaning your going to lose that entire unit over the next 2 turns, since WS4 I4 hardly matters when you revert to S3. 

Still I see the logic of your advice its just 8th tends to dip into protracted battles since larger units are stubborn. Also the flail option really fails when you take into account that a 40 man marauder squad with GW/mark of Khorne is only 1pt more then a marauder with a flail. Also this may sound weird, but initiative values actually don't matter much anymore, do to the addition of the stepping up rule (is that what its called).


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## Sethis

I personally don't like Marauders at all... the strength of Warriors of Chaos is... well... Chaos Warriors (and Knights). If I wanted large units of Mediocre combat troops I'd collect Orks, which at least have the benefits of comedy and novelty. However if you are going to take them, do it with MoK and Flails or MoN and Great Weapons imo.

In the new ruleset my unit of choice is 30 Warriors with Mark of Nurgle/Slaanesh with Halberds, Shields and Banner of Rage. 10 wide, 3 deep, this has taken charges from units of 14 Ogres and beaten them back with ease. My local Vampire Counts player refuses to play against me because he doesn't actually have anything that can take it on with any chance of winning.

The supporting units are a Warshrine, Shaggoth (I just love the model), Knights and a unit of 16 Khorne Warriors with Hand Weapons (65 attacks!!) at 2000pts. Seems to have done very well so far, only slight problems against a magic heavy Dark Elf army which evened out into a victory for me when the winds didn't work out so well for him.


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## Rob1981

Chaos Spawn have been made less effective. My Slaaneshi spawn used to thrive on being able to kill enough to deny the opponents attacks back thus locking down big units by being impossible to shift. Fighting in two ranks has gotten rid of that particular tactic


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## The Wraithlord

I was hoping that Chaos Knights would have the Devastation Charge rule but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I agree with others here, Chaos is all about the Warriors, not the Conan wannabes in the Marauder units. My army only has 15 models that are not in Chaos armour and 10 of them are dogs while the other 5 are horseman (for march blocking, etc). Other than that it is Warriors and better all the way.

As far as 8th goes, I haven't yet played a game but the few guys around here who have says that Chaos is a brutal army now because of the sheer power of the warriors. Time will tell.


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## LukeValantine

Well actually all army like armies (WoC, Empire, Orks, ect) are considerably stronger, while stuff like daemons/VC got little enhancement from the new rules. So in other words actually being mortal in the new edition will give you a notable advantage over your old immortal superiors.


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## lukas721

I have question, what you think of 30+ to 40 Maruders with HW + Shields and LA and MoN/MoT as big blocking unit, and we can flank with anything, knights/warriors/hounds etc. I know it's 280-290 pts for 40 of them but those 31 ataks can hurt + 4 ini.

But I have probem with 50 HE infantry with bows and shields, I can be wrong (I hope) but as horde + evles special rules they have 5 ranks atak (2 normal+spears+horde+s.rule) and they can shoot bows like 36 shoots and at charge stand and shoot than they go 1st so 41 ataks (or 51 because they are not charging but def, not sure yet) and if ini is bigger they can reroll they miss ataks, please correct me but don't know how to kill it or stop it to get flank or so.


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## Wasabi

HE with ASF + Eternal Hatred (basically) is absolute and total BS. What was GW thinking? Yeah, I get that GW fudged the rules horribly in favour of HE because they just released IoB, which pushes HE and Skaven to be their top money makers, and the new VERY expensive plastics will cause GW to make tons of cash from old and new HE and WHFB players, but this just wasn't right. 

Chaos Warriors have I5, all HE have I5 so they will always get ASF + re-rolls against basically everything. My cousin plays HE and I have yet to win a game against him. It's so frustrating because of those stupid re-rolls, he kills everything. He loves taking Phoenix Guard because they never die, and Swordmasters because they have 2x WS6 S5 attacks each so with re-rolls and ASF (even with great weapons) they destroy everything. Once we get to the point where he can take Teclis I'll be quitting Warhammer completely.


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## Masked Jackal

The rerolls is to balance the fact that the old benefits of ASF are practically useless now. High Elves are meaner now, but they're still quite killable. Remember that those are still squishy elves beneath it all. Honestly Wasabi, it sounds like either you tactics are bad, or you're playing someone who's very good.


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## Wasabi

I'm sure my tactics are awful seeing as how I've only been playing for about a month, and only about 15 games at that. The problem is that Phoenix Guard are impossible to kill due to their 4+ ward save (which he seems to always pass), and Swordmasters wreck face due to their high WS, high S and 2 attacks each. They wound very easily due to S5 vs T4, and the high S leads to essentially terrible AS so they tend to kill quite a few Warriors each round, especially with the ASF + re-rolls.

By the time I get to attack back, I've lost quite a few guys and considering how small the blocks of warriors are at 1500pts, I'm usually not left with much to hit back with.


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## Masked Jackal

However, the two things you have described are just as expensive as Chaos Warriors. Sure, they get an advantage in either killy or defense, but they're just elves. The Phoenix Guard will find it hard to pull off enough kills to really destroy anything, unless there's a character there, something Chaos has numerous options for. Swordmasters are even easier. Even if they kill some Chaos Warriors, they cost the same, and you can expect to kill even more in return. That's assuming you don't magic or shoot them to death. Granted, Chaos doesn't have the latter, but they definitely have the former.


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## Karnax

What if you run 20 warriors with MoN and AHW. Offense _and_ defense.


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## MarquisDeSade

Wasabi said:


> Chaos Warriors have I5, all HE have I5 so they will always get ASF + re-rolls against basically everything. My cousin plays HE and I have yet to win a game against him. It's so frustrating because of those stupid re-rolls, he kills everything. He loves taking Phoenix Guard because they never die, and Swordmasters because they have 2x WS6 S5 attacks each so with re-rolls and ASF (even with great weapons) they destroy everything. Once we get to the point where he can take Teclis I'll be quitting Warhammer completely.


From my experience, HE armies tend to lean towards the elite units and so tend to be quite small. If a horde unit of Lothern Sea Guard happen to show up, Ecstatic Seizures from the Slaanesh lore is wonderful (low casting cost, every model takes a S test or dies, no armour, no wards, nada). The Hellcannon is useful against such a block too. Remember, that unit of 50 Sea Guard w/ shields cost 13pts per model equalling about 700pts w/ command and 25pt banner. Hit it in the flank with Khornate Knights and it'll fall apart after a couple of rounds.

Personally, I mainly use Bretonnians (also have HE, Slaanesh Warriors and a 'Wulfrik' Marauder horde) and having recently played two seperate HE lists containing Teclis, have decided that he's not all that. Yes, it hurts when he starts throwing spells around but, smack him with a lance of Knights (or one Khornate Knight (for equiv number of attacks) in your case lol) and you suddenly get 425pts of very dead elf. He is a crutch that you can take great pleasure in kicking out from under a bad HE player.

Please, don't complain about having expensive,great, hard hitting core troops or cheap, yet awesome 'block' troops. You get 3 Warriors w/ halberds for the cost of 2 of my knights. Sorry, I forgot, 6 WS5, S5 attacks every round is better than 2 WS4, S5 attacks on the charge isn't it :shok:


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## Sworn Radical

You realize this thread is eleven months old, do you ?


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## experiment 626

Sworn Radical said:


> You realize this thread is eleven months old, do you ?


I think he cast Threadomancy with irristable force personally... No wonder everyone says undead are so cheesey, they won't ever fail their dispels!


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## MarquisDeSade

I did lol. just thought i'd throw in my tuppence worth, even if it's a bit out dated.


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