# 'Lith bustin



## warlord statovitch (Aug 22, 2007)

Now as we all now, Liths arent the easiest things to bring down by any means 
The whole living metal thing can really screw you over with melta weapons and in an ork army, strong weapons are hard to come by 
is there any way to take down a lith wis as little hasel and points as possible in an ork army?


----------



## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

Orks are terribly clumsy when tackling tanks, either at range or otherwise. 

I would imagine that the Zzap gun would be the best bet, but totally random. Having rokits and twin rokits all over the place is an option, but still wont guarantee any results. Close combat weapons, like the Klaw are simply too unlikely to hit, unless you manage to get a full Warboss and Nob unit completely kitted out with Klaws into base contact. But, doing so is likely to cost you the entire unit, and maybe even before they can make contact.

The best solution is to just get stuck into the Necrons as soon as possible and put your choppas an burnas into action. 

As with most armies, Orks deal with Monoliths best by just not dealing with them. Phase Out is your friend and best ally against the Necrons.


----------



## Cadian81st (Dec 24, 2006)

Yeah, that's probably the best tactic for monoliths with any army. Just ignore them and go for the troopers.


----------



## black chaplain (May 14, 2007)

two words = *DEMOLISHER CANNON* 

Get a looted Leman Russ Demolisher and blast that Cheesy tank into oblivion ,the best thing about it is ordinance still get 2D6 armour penetration against it. 

I myself have a Leman Russ Demolisher and it has been dubbed "The Necron Nuker" thanks to its undying usefulness against not only the Monolith but every T5 Necron unit. 

In Summary Strength 10 + 2D6 = Good

(normal Leman Russes also work well)


----------



## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

hmm id have to agree with you on that one. isnt a leman russ only str 7 tho?? i may be mistaken.


----------



## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Ordo Xeno Commander said:


> hmm id have to agree with you on that one. isnt a leman russ only str 7 tho?? i may be mistaken.


A leman is 8 demolisher is 10, only the conquerers cannon is 7

thats a point, could an Augur shell reduce a monoliths armour?


----------



## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

No.

Unless it specifically states on the weapon profile or the Living Metal special rule that the special ability works against the Living metal special rule, it does not. So far, the only things that work are Turbo-Penetrator rounds and Bioacid Spore Mines (same rule), and the Ordnance 2d6 pick highest rule.


----------



## mattjgilbert (Feb 28, 2007)

Other than the noted exceptions, you get 1D6 + Strength (unaugmented) vs Living Metal on a 'lith.


----------



## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

Just thinking, I have never played anyone that used a monolith, but as Sisters players, I can't think of a good way to take it out.


----------



## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

The best way for Orks is just rokkit spam at the thing. However you really should be throwing your rokkit spam at the warriors anyway. For Sisters you have Exorcists. Not sure apart from that.


----------



## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

exorcist are only strength 8, still need 6's to pen. Doesn't seem like a very fine tactic to me.


----------



## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

" 1D6 + Strength (unaugmented) "

does "unaugmented" mean that powerfists and thunderhammers and "suffer not the unclean to live" (black templar vow, +1S -1I) do not work? and you just roll with the strength of 4?


----------



## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

As far as I know, living metal only affects penetration rolls. Therefore, you still get the double strength for powerfist. But say for chainfists you get the double strength but not the 2d6 for pen.


----------



## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Keep in mind that AP1 weapons still penetrate on a roll of 14. As for Orks... there's always the handy-dandy power klaw that every single one of your nobs should have... 

Honestly though, monoliths are a bit of a liability for necrons. They're big and scary and 235 points, and that's 235 points of Necrons that you don't have to phase out. The easiest Necron armies to beat are the ones that have a Monolith, a C'Tan, and a big squad of Pariahs. Scary stuff all, but armies like that have all of like twenty warriors. Knock 'em down and the army goes away.


----------



## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

Engelus said:


> " 1D6 + Strength (unaugmented) "
> 
> does "unaugmented" mean that powerfists and thunderhammers and "suffer not the unclean to live" (black templar vow, +1S -1I) do not work? and you just roll with the strength of 4?


sorry dude but it does count the whole doubling scores thing. the only weapon that gets the extra penetration is the turbo booster round for the vindicare assassin.

and AP 1 does not penetrate on a score of 14. that is counted as extra penetration and therefore does not apply.

and don't argue because a) i have the faq and b) ive been over this a million times. check the US GW site necrons FAQ if you don't beleive me.


----------



## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

Ordo Xeno Commander said:


> sorry dude but it does count the whole doubling scores thing. the only weapon that gets the extra penetration is the turbo booster round for the vindicare assassin.
> 
> and AP 1 does not penetrate on a score of 14. that is counted as extra penetration and therefore does not apply.
> 
> and don't argue because a) i have the faq and b) ive been over this a million times. check the US GW site necrons FAQ if you don't beleive me.


If you've been over this a million times how come you have the AP1 thing completely wrong then? AP1 is nothing to do with extra penetration, you don't roll any extra dice or add anything so you get your penetrating hit.

As for the powerfist issue, thats been done to death million times and no-one's decided definitively. Unless there's been an FAQ which directly addresses the issue ie. specifically mentions weapons such as powerfists then its still just as much up in the air. 

The FAQ mentions about doubling scores (but the fist doubles Strength) and not counting any bonus penetration of any sort. A powerfist doesn't give any bonus penetration such as given in the examples ie. tank-hunter etc. so I'm of a mind to say that the fist can use the doubled Strength as its method od action is not covered under living metal or by the FAQ. Chainfists would still only get 1D6 for armour penetration though, as bonus penetration isn't allowed. Either way I'm not that bothered so feel free to disagree.


----------



## Flam (Feb 7, 2007)

The Son of Horus said:


> The easiest Necron armies to beat are the ones that have a Monolith, a C'Tan, and a big squad of Pariahs.


You know, Pariahs really SHOULD count as Necrons. If they were, they'd be of a lot more use, and it wouldn't really violate the fluff.

Maybe it's for the best Pariahs are such...pariahs. I mean, their models look like Bill & Ted's robotic doubles. I don't want robo Bill rubbing shoulders with MY Necron Lord!


----------



## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

actually, I never target the things that don't count as necrons, which means that I typically ignore the pariahs which then means that they are free to teleport around the field and harass me.


----------



## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

That is why pariahs can be useful. Anything that makes an opponent stop and think and reconsider their action is good. Will I be able to phase out the necrons before the pariahs eat through my army or can should I take out the pariahs and hope the rest of my army can deal with the rest of the necrons.

Also, fluffwise pariahs shouldn't count as necrons as they are part necrons and part human. Only thing I can see is maybe a WBB roll on 6 or something like that.


----------



## rolywar (Aug 30, 2007)

pariahs cant teleport anywhere, not necrons therefore cant veil or deep stike . a power fist augments the strength of the person(for person read weapon) the rules clearly state unaugmented strength of the weapon, powerfists were specifically targeted in this part of the rules section, it was deemed that actually printing this would upset guard and marine players too much though. As for weapons that hurt the lith, las cannons, bloody tau rail guns, and the dreaded wraith cannon, glance 3/4 penetrate 5/6. this is not an augmentation or bonus penetration die, this is the weapons basic rule. I do believe that this weapon was specifically created by the old ones for the Eldar for the purposes of taking out monoliths.


----------



## mattjgilbert (Feb 28, 2007)

re: the AP1 thing on a 'Lith - it has nothing to do with Extra penetration dice or doubling scores in any way and so the rule remains in full effect.


----------



## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

> it was deemed that actually printing this would upset guard and marine players too much though.


What??!? So they didn't print a specific, clear FAQ directly addressing the contentious issue because it might upset some players? Sorry, thats balls. 

All they had to do was mention powerfists and other weapons that double or triple users strength in the FAQ and there would be no issue. The fact that they haven't gives more evidence to the fact that they do get the doubled S than against. Oh and Guard powerfists can't hurt it anyway being only S6.


----------



## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

mattjgilbert said:


> re: the AP1 thing on a 'Lith - it has nothing to do with Extra penetration dice or doubling scores in any way and so the rule remains in full effect.


i quote "dont count *any* bonus penetration of *any* sort against a monolith"

as i said before this excludes the vindicare temple assassin's rifle and you still roll 2 dice for ordanance.


----------



## Flam (Feb 7, 2007)

Pariahs: Necrons that aren't, for some reason. I'm assuming the Necrontyr couldn't reconstruct themselves until after they became Necrons. Why can't Pariahs? 

Fluff aside, it's not the lack of WBB that bugs me about Pariahs. It's that they don't count towards your army disappearing. It's really frustrating to have your army up and disappear in the middle of a heated fight, and often one or two Pariah models would have been enough to make the difference!


----------



## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

> i quote "dont count any bonus penetration of any sort against a monolith"


Heard you first time, and you're still wrong. AP1 has nothing to do with bonus penetration. Does it give a bonus to the armour penetration roll? No. Hence the rule and FAQ do not apply. 

It applies after penetration has been rolled for and turns glancing hits into penetrating hits. Is it a bonus to you as a player? Hell yes. Is it bonus penetration? No.


----------



## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

Pariahs aren't Necrons because they aren't based on the Necrontyr species.


----------



## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

ok so your saying that a value that gives better penetration is not a bonus form of penetration?? huh? I have asked all the older players at my local gaming shop who play warhammer, including the people that work there and they all agree that AP1 is a form of bonus penetration. 

The quote does not say bonus penetration dice, it says bonus penetration. id call turning a glancing into a penetrating bonus penetration.


----------



## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

You can play it like that in your store, but I wouldn't expect anyone else to play it like that. Asking other players and staff doesn't help if they're wrong too. Plenty of other guys and staff members I've played have got rules wrong, myself included.

It doesn't give bonus penetration, especially not of the type included in the examples such . The penetration score stands, unaugmented as the FAQ specifically bans giving bonuses to the penetration score, hence there is no bonus penetration. Ordnance is exactly the same, it doesn't give a bonus to the pen score, it just gives you two chances. Surely this would count as a bonus by your reckoning? AP1 simply turns that unaugmented score with no bonus applied into a penetrating hit.


----------



## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

hmm well ive emailed GW and im waiting on an answer. and re the ordanance, the FAQ also says that the ordanance is excepted. however it does not exclude AP1


----------



## anathema (Jan 24, 2007)

It doesn't include it or even hint at it in the examples either. And I wouldn't expect a GW email to be taken as Gospel either, only the FAQ's really matter. Fact of the matter is you can play anyway you want and feel free to disagree with me. As the chance of us facing each other is very low I can live with that. However anyone who claims that at an event when playing me will find that we'll be having a judge over to clarify it. Any more arguing the point is fruitless I think.


----------



## don_mondo (Jan 28, 2007)

1. AP1 works against Living Metal. Deal with it. 

2. Powerfists/Claws/Chainfists get double strength. (Otherwise, they wouldn't even need to specifically mention Chainfists not getting 2d6 penetration in the Living Metal codex entry, now would they?)


----------



## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

don mondo, your second point is wrong
we are talking about the faq which specifically says doubling scores and extra penetration dice are pretty much the same thing and they dont work agaisnt living metal. therefore neither powerfists nor chainfists work. same with the claws. the only way someone holding such a weapon could do any damage is with a str8 weapon or they themselves are str8 

and i withdraw about the AP1 thing, im still not convinced but as anathema says ill play as i will and he can play with his rules.


----------



## dakari-mane (Mar 9, 2007)

Ordo Xeno Commander said:


> don mondo, your second point is wrong
> we are talking about the faq which specifically says doubling scores and extra penetration dice are pretty much the same thing and they dont work agaisnt living metal. therefore neither powerfists nor chainfists work. same with the claws. the only way someone holding such a weapon could do any damage is with a str8 weapon or they themselves are str8.


Sorry chum wrong again. The reference to doubling scores relates to Ork Tank busta bombs which roll a D6x2+6 for AP. 

Because Doubling a D6 & adding an extra D6 are pretty much the same thing.
While adding a D6 & the strength of a powerfist are not pretty much the same thing. In fact they are very much different. One is bonus penetration and the other is the base strength of the weapon.

:wink:


----------



## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

God guys plz dont bring up the whole 'lith living metal rule, if you really wanna argue about it, go look through the rules and questions forum back a few pages and just read the topic we had arguing for god knows how long and there IS a FAQ link there, that seems to have been deleted or lost somewhere on the forums, but there is an FAQ on it so go look it up or something, we've had the arguement storm through these forums here once before no need to rekindle that fire :wink:


----------



## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

yea sorry i was in the original. and now thinking about i am wrong. w00t. that means my termies do work!!! mwahahaha good bye neighbours hopes of ever winning again!

I apologise and withdraw. My interpretation of the text was obviously different.

now lets just leave this fire to burn down into ashes again.


----------



## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Well said DaemonsR'us.  

For those that want to check what was said in the previous threads mentioned by Daemons and Ordo.
It all started long ago when Jezlads thread 'Help with Store Managers Necrons was stampeded on page 2 with the same issue. I then started a new thread 'Different print runs of a Codex.' to try and get Jez's thread back on track and at the time we thought that the wording had changed due to a re-print of the codex. 

This one always seems to kick up a stink, but remember that Living Metal rule is basically about things that effect the penetration of the Monolith directly but the Power Fists x2 strength rule effects the user of the weapon not the Monolith.
Chainfists effect both so you only get the half of the rule that effects the bearer x2 strength and not the extra penertration d6 that effects the Monolith.

Sorry it took me so long to find the original posts guys.


----------



## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

No worries vash, i forgot where they were and had looked a while and was trying to post but couldnt find it before i had to go, s'why i said its somewhere on the forum


----------



## black chaplain (May 14, 2007)

Ok im putting in my two cents.

I have never liked Monoliths there the uber tank of WH40K and there cheaper than the land raider?!??!

anyway i'm certain that AP1 counts against monliths because it doesnt effect the _*armour penetration roll*_

*it takes effect after the roll* not *during the roll*, therefore you get the bonus


----------



## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

as i said i withdraw, gracefully i hope. i guess it does mean better and easier killing for me. i really dont understand why i was fighting against a rule i wanted. anyway over and done with now. Here is a summary for all those who cannot be bothered trying to find out what does what against a monlith.

No extra penetration dice for: 
chainfists and melta weapons or weapons to that effect.

Exceptions:
still roll 2d6 for armour penetration for ordanance rounds
vindicares rifle still works.

Confusing topics:
the powerfists still double the strength (same for chainfists, just no extra penetration dice)
AP1 still works, turning glancing into penetrating

and on the claws thing brought up awhile ago, lightning claws do not double strength depite being mounted on powerfists. this is because the power that is normally doubles the strength is redirected to the claws.


----------



## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

the reason that Ordnance still rolls 2d6 is because it is not a bonus, it is just more likely to be higher. you wouldn't only roll a twin linked lascannon once against it would you, Its basically the same mechanic only slightly better and for penetration.

and I know nothing about the Vindicare assassin rifle, but I am assuming that is strength is listed as 2d6. now If this is fired at a monolith, it would still get 2d6 because the 2d6 is not bonus, it simply is its strength, you would roll it against a troop model, or monsterous creature too, 

the only thing you don't get is something that you would only roll against a vehicle and as you don't Roll AP1, it just is, and it doesn't affect only vehicles (it also affects armored troops by denying them their armor) then you still get the AP1


----------



## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

nice summary, i beleive the turbo penetrator round rols 3d6 for armour penetration. the shield breaker denies invunerable save however its only ap4 i beleive and the hellfire round is ap2. not to sure on strength sorry.


----------



## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

I thought since the shield breaker is fired from the same rifle as the other shots its ap2 as well? :?


----------



## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

nope, there is no basic shot, the AP2 applies only to that particular round. there is no base round, you just choose whatever one you want to use on that turn.


----------



## black chaplain (May 14, 2007)

Sorry about pointing out your faults but i believe you are wrong again. :? 

The Exitus rifle is Range 36" Strength X and AP 2, it can shoot that shot every turn.

It also comes with three special rounds and each one can be shot once a game they are:

Hellfire: wounds on a 2+ instead of a 4+

Turbo Penetrator: Counts every wound as two wounds and against vehicle gives the Exitus rifle 3d6 amour penetration

and

Shield Breaker: This shot ignores invulnerables

I think that just about somes it up


----------



## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

argh i knew something was wrong. sorry i havent read the codex in awhile. man im just gona shut up, i seem to be wrong about everything


----------



## Greyskullscrusade (Jan 24, 2007)

Cant tankbusta bombz do it easily? they dont work like meltas so they should be able to.


----------



## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

if its strength is listed as Xd6 then yes, if its strength is listed as 8+Xd6, then no.

however, they will hony hit on 6's, so its not something I would try.

I consistantly take them out with an Angry Chaplain on Bike with a Thunderhammer and +1 strength


----------



## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

Tankbusta bombs don't work.


----------



## maximus2467 (Jun 14, 2007)

do you still get plus one st for tank hunter?


----------



## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Fraid not.
Its a penetration rule rather than a Strength bonus so 'Living Metal' cancels it.


----------

