# How many loyalist SM fought against the chaos traitiors in Battle of Terra



## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

From what I know there was Imperial Fist , Blood Angels and the White Scars fighting the chaos traitors for the Battle of Terra. 

So that comes out to be roughly 300,000 loyalist space marines give or take. 

Vs.

Sons of Horus , Death Guard , Emperor Children and World Eaters but they lost 1/3 of their legion during the Isstvan 3 purging of the loyalist elements in their legions so I figure give or take that 2/3 of 400,000 comes out to be 267,000 rounded off. I understand the Emperor Children were a small legion so the number can be much smaller than 267,000 . Plus I think elements of the World Bearers were with them. 


If I understand the Night Lords were occupying the Dark Angels and the Alpha Legion were engage with the Space Wolves. 

And some elements of the Imperial Fist occupied the Iron Warriors. And Ultramarines were fighting off elements of the world bearers. 

So on the Battle of Terra it's roughly 3 full loyalist legion vs 4 or 5 semi full chaos legions....am I correct? 

Space Wolves and Ultra Marines arrived after I think as the same with Dark Angels. 

Where did the Night Lords come in than? I mean I thought Cruze got his head cut off on Terra. 

Later I think Rogal Dorn chase after the Iron Warriors right?


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## vipertaja (Mar 20, 2010)

Some scattered bits I recall:

The Emperor's Children didn't really do much in the Battle supposedly, concentrating on Terra's civilian population instead, betraying and greatly irritating Horus.

At least some iron warriors were present and helped create a breach in the palace defences. They did some tunneling and ordnance/artillery at least IIRC.

Loyalists would have other imperial forces as well (custodes, imperial army, sisters of silence? Mechanicus?) 

Both sides had Titan legions. Chaos has cultists and daemons and whatever.

I think Magnus does show up for the battle of Terra, so at least some Thousand sons.

Some Word Bearers may have been on earth, because I think they split up for Terra and Calth...which is probably why they have a notable presence in both the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom. (having each fled to the nearest).

Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines are eventually racing to come to the battle, but are too late. They are the reason it ends in a way though, since Horus knows he's out of time and has to force a finish to it.

That's all I can think of right now. Numbers I don't know.
(I know you asked specifically about space marines, but I put in the other stuff too)


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## Cruxyh (Apr 22, 2012)

If I recall correctly the Emperor's Children were a very small legion so the number probably is a lot smaller than 267.000, not counting the losses they suffered from the fighting on Isstvan V.

There were elements of Word Bearers and Night Lords that actually fought on Terra during the siege, so odds are decent that the Alpha Legion also had elements on there.

I suspect that the Blood Angels were also somewhat bloodied due to the events of Signus Prime, unless they changed that... (sorry, not finished Fear to Tread yet )

The Night Haunter only lost his head some time after the end of the Horus Heresy on a planet named Tsagualsa, done by an assassin (M'shen if I recall correctly).


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

The Imperial Fists sent a fleet to check out Istvaan, so they weren't at full strength on Terra.

The Blood Angels lost a considerable amount at Signus Prime.

Not sure about the White Scars. I don't think their tussle with the Orks in the Chondax system would have cost them all that much.

I don't recall the particular HH book, but Horus complains about the Angron's impetuousness. His ground assault on Istvaan after the virus bombing cost the WEs heavily--they were barely above half strength.

The rest--Sons of Horus, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children probably lost about a third of their number (I vaguely remember the same conversation about the casualty rates for these Legions being around this number).

The Emperor's Children was notably smaller--probably around 40,000.

Between those 4 Legions I would guess 190,000 men out of 320,000 or so.

Then there's the fighting on Istvaan V. That probably cost them around another 20,000 Space Marines.

So on Terra, maybe 170,000 traitors from those 4 Legions.

Though of the other traitor Legions, the Thousand Sons, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords, we know that at least some of these Legions sent Astartes as well.

The Thousand Sons probably didn't send any noteworthy force. They were whittled down to less than a thousand, anyway, after the Battle of Prospero.

The Word Bearers may have sent a considerable contingent--they only sent 50,000 of their 150,000 men to Calth. That leaves 100,000 men. I would imagine the bulk of their Astartes would have been sent to Terra. The WBs started the whole Heresy, one way or another. I would imagine Erebus would have liked to see the "end" of it.

We know the Iron Warriors sent men as well. Again, probably a large chunk of the Legion was detached to Terra. They would loved to have tested their mettle against the Imperial Fists.

The Night Lords is less clear. We know from ADB's Night Lord series that at least 3 (10th, 11th, and 31st) companies was on Terra. I would assume more.

If I had to give estimates on numbers (keeping in mind that some companies and squads couldn't gather with their respective Fathers) of the Astartes that fought throughout the Siege of Terra, I would say around 225,000 Loyalist (from the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, and White Scars) and 300,000-360,000 Traitors.


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## Archaon18 (Feb 17, 2012)

the Traitors would have lost a lot on Istvaans III and V and probably not got any more. I presume their was the 5 main legions then scattered elements of other traitor Legions.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

To break this down; Imperial Forces:


*Imperial Fists.* A third of their Legion comprised the Retribution Fleet that was sent to aid the loyalists on Isstvan III. After taking heavy losses in the near-suicidal withdrawal from the Battle of Phall they are presumed to have returned to the rest of their Legion on Terra. Minimum of 66k, estimates could range up to about 80-90k.


*Blood Angels.* Given the information we have currently, they are presumed to have returned to Terra following their rendezvous with the Ultramarines. They were not _that_ badly mauled on Signus Prime, IIRC roughly 100,000 survived Signus. After all, the original intention was to turn the Blood Angels, not destroy them.


*White Scars.* Presumed to be at full strength following the campaign in Chondax and abandoning the Space Wolves to their fate. Going off the average Legion size, 100,000 White Scars would have been present.


*Total:* Given the losses sustained by the Imperial Fists Retribution Fleet, the total number of Imperial Astartes would have been less than 300,000. If other campaigns such as the Schism of Mars is factored in, a sensible estimate would probably be around the 280,000 mark.

Traitor Forces:


*Sons of Horus.* Sustained significant losses during Isstvan III and V. Going off the average Legion size and also factoring in other casualties sustained during the Heresy, 60,000 would be a fair estimate. 


*World Eaters.* Sustained significant losses during Isstvan III and V. Going off the average Legion size and also factoring in other casualties sustained during the Heresy, 60,000 would be a fair estimate. 


*Emperor's Children.* Sustained significant losses during Isstvan III and V. Going off the average Legion size, whilst factoring in other casualties sustained during the Heresy, and the lower Legion size of the Emperor's Children, 50,000 would be a fair estimate. 


*Death Guard.* Sustained significant losses during Isstvan III and V. Going off the average Legion size and also factoring in other casualties sustained during the Heresy, 60,000 would be a fair estimate. 


*Thousand Sons.* Sustained cataclysmic losses during the Burning of Prospero. No more than 1,000 could have been present at Terra.


*Iron Warriors.* As far as we know, the entire Legion was present at Terra. Factoring in casualties (Phall, _Angel Exterminatus_ etc.) an estimate of 80,000 is fair.


*Night Lords.* Contingents of the VIII Legion were present at Terra. As a random estimate, 20,000 may have present given the strength of the Legion contingent that remained in the Eastern Fringe. As far as I am aware _Prince of Crows_ does provide some information on the amount of Night Lords that headed for Terra, I am yet to read it though.


*Word Bearers.* 50,000 went to Calth under Kor Phaeron. The remaining 100,000 are presumed to have gone with Lorgar to Terra. Though it should be noted that the Word Bearers maintained a presence in the Sol System during the opening stages of the Heresy.


*Total:* Sons of Horus (60k) + Death Guard (60k) + World Eaters (60k) + Emperor's Children (50k) + Thousand Sons (1k) + Iron Warriors (80k) + Night Lords (20k) + Word Bearers (100k) = 431,000. 

Note: the general consensus is that the relevant Legions purged roughly a third of their number so i'll roll with that, though I can't remember myself. I consider my estimate of traitor forces to be conservative.
Also, we have no record of any contingent of the Alpha Legion being present during the Siege, though some may have been.

Going by my calculations then we're looking at roughly 280,000 loyalists Vs 431,000 traitors. Of course this is based on a significant amount of conjecture.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

thanks for the response guys


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Couple of points I'd like to touch on.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> *Blood Angels.* Given the information we have currently, they are presumed to have returned to Terra following their rendezvous with the Ultramarines. They were not _that_ badly mauled on Signus Prime, IIRC roughly 100,000 survived Signus. After all, the original intention was to turn the Blood Angels, not destroy them.
> [/list]


Does _Fear to Tread_ give us a better estimate on the Blood Angels' battle at Signus Prime? I have yet to read it.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> *World Eaters.* Sustained significant losses during Isstvan III and V. Going off the average Legion size and also factoring in other casualties sustained during the Heresy, 60,000 would be a fair estimate.
> [/list]


As I said in my previous post, I'm pretty darn sure the WEs took extra heavy casualties. They say the WEs are barely above half strength. I really wish I could recall which novel I remember this from. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> *Emperor's Children.* Sustained significant losses during Isstvan III and V. Going off the average Legion size, whilst factoring in other casualties sustained during the Heresy, and the lower Legion size of the Emperor's Children, 50,000 would be a fair estimate.


That seems a bit high. Assuming they ran the same casualty rate you gave as the rest of the Istvaan legions (that is, 40%) 50,000 remaining men would mean they stood at ~83,000 men at the start. I think that's too high. They probably had anywhere around 40,000-60,000 men before the fight. Post Istvaan (both fights) I would pitch them around 25,000-40,000.

~~~~~~~~~

Don't forget there were two large battles in the Istvaan system. Unless you have already corrected for Istvaan V in your numbers?

Also, my numbers are a bit lower because I do not believe the entirety of any of the legions would be at Terra. The vagueries of the warp, needing to protect their supply lines, factory worlds, garrisons, ect.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

I read "Fear to Thread". According to the novel the Blood Angels started out with 120,000 space marines but the aftermath fighting at Signus Prime they had about 100,000 which is still legion size.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

hailene said:


> Does _Fear to Tread_ give us a better estimate on the Blood Angels' battle at Signus Prime? I have yet to read it.


The Blood Angels numbered 120k pre-Signus, and 100k post-Signus. So says _Fear to Tread_ IIRC.



hailene said:


> As I said in my previous post, I'm pretty darn sure the WEs took extra heavy casualties. They say the WEs are barely above half strength. I really wish I could recall which novel I remember this from.


I havn't read the opening trilogy in years, so someone will have to confirm that for us.



hailene said:


> That seems a bit high. Assuming they ran the same casualty rate you gave as the rest of the Istvaan legions (that is, 40%) 50,000 remaining men would mean they stood at ~83,000 men at the start. I think that's too high. They probably had anywhere around 40,000-60,000 men before the fight. Post Istvaan (both fights) I would pitch them around 25,000-40,000.


It comes down to conjecture at the end of the day, especially considering the early Heresy novels were dealing with different Legion sizes. The "accident" concerning the III Legion's gene-seed is well documented, but what strength they were able to rebuild to by the time of the Isstvan campaigns isn't clear. You may be right though, I suppose reading _Fulgrim_ again would help. 



hailene said:


> Also, my numbers are a bit lower because I do not believe the entirety of any of the legions would be at Terra. The vagueries of the warp, needing to protect their supply lines, factory worlds, garrisons, ect.


The same would have applied - albeit to a lesser extent - to the Imperial Legions. But yes, you are right. For simplicity's sake it is probably best to ignore this though, given that all numbers are based on a significant amount of conjecture anyway. Or reduce a set figure (eg. 500) from each Legion to factor this in.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Mbahaha, I found the quote. It was in _Galaxy in Flames_.

Horus asks Maloghurst what their casualties looked like after Istvaan III.

"Wе lost a great many in the landings and more than a few in the palace,’ replied Maloghurst. The Emperor's Children and the Death Guard were similarly mauled. The World Eaters lost the most. They are barely above half strength.'"

This is all before the battle of Istvaan V where the initial four traitor Legions also took some heavy blows.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'll quote Rems from another post, where he gives more detailed information taken from the Forge World Heresy book.



Rems said:


> The new Heresy supplement provides some hard figures.
> 
> In the period leading up to Isstvan III the Sons of Horus had been on a secret recruiting drive and had built themselves up to 130,000- 170,000 strong.
> 
> ...


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

vipertaja said:


> The Emperor's Children didn't really do much in the Battle supposedly, concentrating on Terra's civilian population instead, betraying and greatly irritating Horus.


I'd be irritated too, since the lack of those forces is probably why Horus lost the Siege. An extra 50,000 Astartes + daemons attacking the Palace would almost certainly have broken the defenses long before the loyalists showed up when they did.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

randian said:


> I'd be irritated too, since the lack of those forces is probably why Horus lost the Siege. An extra 50,000 Astartes + daemons attacking the Palace would almost certainly have broken the defenses long before the loyalists showed up when they did.


Isn't this the story of Chaos, period? Their disunity their truest weak point?


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## Nashnir (Apr 3, 2010)

As far as I know what forces Horus had were enough. But no matter what they did they couldn't breach the palace. ( i.e. The Eternity Gate ). This is where it began to become a stalemate and Horus just couldn't wait anymore. Guess the palace in the truest sense is kind if Invincible like the walls of Minas Tirith or Orthanc.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Personally I think the siege was an irrelevant pretext. The palace and terra were irrelevant to Horus. He had to kill the emperor, and the siege was the way to bait him out, at which point you don't need to kill all the loyalists, just appear that you will

If we consider this then potentially from a military perspective Horus baited the emperor earlier than he should. His orbital fleet would have been strong enough to hold off the loyalists, at least for a fair time, must have had close to 6 legions worth of battleships at his disposal 

Terra was full of tactical mistakes from the military genius suggesting it was chaos gods rather than Horus that were calling the shot, giving them exactly what they wanted centuries of war & bloodshed. If the cabal are to be believed Horus victory would have been a disaster for chaos in its purest form


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

But that doesn't agree with the established fluff, it specifically states he had run out of time, the loyalist fleets of the Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines wasn't expected at all, certainly not as fast as they did. It states that lowering the shields was a last ditch gambit from Horus, he had never planned to do so. The Palace would have fallen, perhaps in a few days or a week I remember it saying, but the loyalist fleets were only hours away, forcing his hand.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> To break this down; Imperial Forces:
> 
> 
> *Imperial Fists.* A third of their Legion comprised the Retribution Fleet that was sent to aid the loyalists on Isstvan III. After taking heavy losses in the near-suicidal withdrawal from the Battle of Phall they are presumed to have returned to the rest of their Legion on Terra. Minimum of 66k, estimates could range up to about 80-90k.
> ...





I wouldn't be surprised if there becomes more focus on the Warmaster, the gene-templates, and Fabius, regarding more numbers on Terra. In seems relevant since Horus was seeking the Gene-templates in _Deliverance Lost_. Another thing we can factor in is that the fact that it took several years before Horus actually assaulted Terra. So far, fans of the series have regarded Horus as being retarded for not assaulting sooner. Perhaps there was a large and fast recruitment process. This could also be where Fabius Bile seperates from his legion as fluff as said he has.

Another interesting concept to dwell on is if the gene template somehow forced many legions to mutate faster, considering that they retracted and passed on the infected geneseed from generation to generation without knowledge of its flaws. Alpha Legion for example has been depicted to have minimum mutations because they stay away from the eye. But they don't necessarly stay away from its influence. Because of this I think the reason why they have prospered after the Heresy is because of their clean geneseed.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

Imperial Army, now the disjointed Imperial Guard, the IA went through a similar thing as the Astrates, they were MASSIVE legions of men rather then the current regiments they have now. 

There would of been thousands of them (probably 100s of thousands) already based on Terra. Even more brought back with the Loyalists (and Traitors) from the Great Crusade as well as more picked up en route to Terra. Regiments of Superheavies countless LRs and other (probably better) battletanks.

I can't imagine the 'PDF' the Emperor left on Terra would be anything less then bad arse mofos and what about the Adeptus Custodes, they were around right??

Just thought, Mars, it's right next door and 1/2 were bff with the big E so they would of got geared up right? Also don't the admech keep the coolest toys for themselves? Lastly the Skittari number in the thousands right, specially back then?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The Skittari and other Mechanicum forces would have been heavily engaged in the martian civil war. Would really only be the ones already based on Terra and those that were attached to the V, VII and IX Legions.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

Would the Admech not of had some based there as PDF? I'm pretty sure they had extra Titans there along with the ones the Loyalist legions brought with them.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yeah there were the Titan legions stationed on Terra already, but beyond them few would have come from Mars with everything going on there.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I still feel that less than 500,000 traitors seems a bit low. Sure they have a lot of cannon fodder. But that really only counts when you have time to continously siege a palace. I think Horus knew he had a time limit. In that sense I think that stronger warriors like Astartes were probably heavily used a less rational way.

So we have as far as astartes go (with current evidence):

For the Traitors:


450,00 or less divided and warped minded astartes (maybe a fifth or tenth of them expert siege warriors/ _Iron Warriors_)


The Loyalists:


Around 300,000 fresh astartes (loyal to their cause)
THE whole defences of Terra
Led by none other than Dorn and a third of the astartes expert siege defenders.


Keep in mind the traitors are a bunch of disorganized warbands for the most part. The ones I speak of are those devoted to the four powers. I feel the World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Death Guard would be problems amongst themselves. We know that the Emperor's Children didn't even take part in the siege. I wouldn't be surprised if the World Eaters and Death Guard created problems with other legions.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Hellados said:


> I can't imagine the 'PDF' the Emperor left on Terra would be anything less then bad arse mofos and what about the Adeptus Custodes, they were around right??


I don't imagine Terra was all that fortified. Dorn had to redo the Palace from the ground up.

Remember, humanity was spreading its wings and expanding outwards. Fortifying Terra wouldn't have been all that important. It seemed Horus's fleet brush aside the Lunar, orbital, and ground base defenses pretty easily.



ckcrawford said:


> I still feel that less than 500,000 traitors seems a bit low. Sure they have a lot of cannon fodder. But that really only counts when you have time to continously siege a palace. I


Horus has complete space supremacy. Nothing could get in. No reinforcements. No additional supplies.

Horus, on the other hand had the largest, most developed Forge World in the galaxy a hop, skip, and a jump away. And likely had reinforcements being funneled all the while.

Force the defenders to deal with your cannon fodder while your real troops wait for a time and place to exploit.

Plus I'd imagine the Blood Angels being none too happy about the EC running amok through the population centers.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Horus wouldn't be able to rely on the Dark Mechanicum, they would be just as busy fighting the loyalist Mechanicum and Titan legions. He had space supremacy, but he would have taken heavy casualties in the initial orbital war, then every battlefleet in the Imperium would be racing back to Terra, I imagine the Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Ultramarine fleets would have had vast compliments of other Imperial forces with them that they would have picked up on the way. Then the White Scars recaptured the Lions Gate space port, significantly reducing the amount of troops Horus could land on the ground and also deliver surface to orbital firepower. 

Horus couldn't use his canon fodder and hold his real troops in reserve either. The Imperial Palace was/is the most well defended fortress in the galaxy, Dorn had fortified it beyond imagining, the defence was commanded and orchestrated by Rogal Dorn, led by Sanguinius and had The Khan doing what he does best. A significant amount of Imperial Fists, almost the full strength of the Blood Angels and White Scars, numerous Titan Legions, the Adeptus Custodes and despite what you say, I agree that Terra would still have had some beyond hardcore Imperial Army troops garrisoned there.

With all that, Horus wouldn't have a choice but to commit his best troops, and we know he did, the traitor Primarchs led from the front with their troops. 

The incoming reinforcements made it impossible for Horus to win.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Horus wouldn't be able to rely on the Dark Mechanicum, they would be just as busy fighting the loyalist Mechanicum and Titan legions. He had space supremacy, but he would have taken heavy casualties in the initial orbital war, then every battlefleet in the Imperium would be racing back to Terra, I imagine the Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Ultramarine fleets would have had vast compliments of other Imperial forces with them that they would have picked up on the way. Then the White Scars recaptured the Lions Gate space port, significantly reducing the amount of troops Horus could land on the ground and also deliver surface to orbital firepower.
> 
> Horus couldn't use his canon fodder and hold his real troops in reserve either. The Imperial Palace was/is the most well defended fortress in the galaxy, Dorn had fortified it beyond imagining, the defence was commanded and orchestrated by Rogal Dorn, led by Sanguinius and had The Khan doing what he does best. A significant amount of Imperial Fists, almost the full strength of the Blood Angels and White Scars, numerous Titan Legions, the Adeptus Custodes and despite what you say, I agree that Terra would still have had some beyond hardcore Imperial Army troops garrisoned there.
> 
> ...


Thats a good point you bring about the Dark Mechanicum. Plus, since unlocking the secrets that the Emperor hid away, I doubt that their leadership wanted anything to do with what was happening around the galaxy. They were essentially a bunch of kids opening their Christmas presents. 

As far as evidence right now shows, there was no way the traitors could hope to win the battle. I think there is still a lot concerning forces and luck that will need to be presented throughout the Heresy Series inorder for the siege to make sense.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Horus wouldn't be able to rely on the Dark Mechanicum, they would be just as busy fighting the loyalist Mechanicum and Titan legions.


I don't think so. From _Mechanicus_ we saw the Loyalists on Mars were taken largely by surprise. They were also shocked by what ends the Dark Mechanicus was willing to go.

If there was any level of parity, I would think Dorn would have helped the Mechanicus win their civil war. Instead, he saw the situation as hopeless enough that he just grabbed what he could and ran to Terra.



Angel of Blood said:


> He had space supremacy, but he would have taken heavy casualties in the initial orbital war, then every battlefleet in the Imperium would be racing back to Terra, I imagine the Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Ultramarine fleets would have had vast compliments of other Imperial forces with them that they would have picked up on the way.


All the fleets in the universe don't matter so long as they're not in the Sol system. Horus had complete control of Sol. He could rapidly reinforce or bombard anything outside the protective umbrella of void shields. This means the Loyalists were largely bottled up. Minus any sneak attacks.

The Loyalists could not afford to take any ground for long without risk of getting annihilated from orbit. This further limited the resources at their disposal.

Also, unlike Horus who had planned the Heresy for years, the Loyalists forces were scattered and off-balance.

From the Fourth Edition CSM codex:

"All across the galaxy many of the Emperor's greatest works had fallen and his forces were in disarray...Such was the position when the forces of Horus gathered around Earth. The Lunar bases, bastion of the fleet, fell to Horus following brief but hard fighting, and soon the rebel fleet was in control of the orbital space around Earth. Raining fire down upon the Imperial Seat, Horus' battleships dueled with planetary defence lasers, crushing them with a heavy bombardment from space--the Space Marine Legions had been created with planetary assault as their primary role and it was a strategy they had perfected during the Great Crusade."

Doesn't sound like the Traitors had all that hard of time taking control of the space around Terra.



Angel of Blood said:


> With all that, Horus wouldn't have a choice but to commit his best troops, and we know he did, the traitor Primarchs led from the front with their troops.
> 
> The incoming reinforcements made it impossible for Horus to win.


I reread the CSM 6th edition codex. It seems he didn't rely on either cannon fodder or throwing his men into the grinder, but rather raw firepower to destroy the walls and then throw his CSM into the fight.



ckcrawford said:


> As far as evidence right now shows, there was no way the traitors could hope to win the battle. I think there is still a lot concerning forces and luck that will need to be presented throughout the Heresy Series inorder for the siege to make sense.


The Traitors weren't all that far away from winning the battle. All they needed was a little bit more time.

The Loyalists had their back to the wall when word of Imperial reinforcements came in.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

hailene said:


> I don't think so. From _Mechanicus_ we saw the Loyalists on Mars were taken largely by surprise. They were also shocked by what ends the Dark Mechanicus was willing to go.
> 
> If there was any level of parity, I would think Dorn would have helped the Mechanicus win their civil war. Instead, he saw the situation as hopeless enough that he just grabbed what he could and ran to Terra.


Dorn knew he couldn't afford to lose the amount of men it would take to recapture Mars, he essentially took what he could and left them to fend for themselves, knowing that his duty was to protect Terra. We know from _Angel Exterminatus_ that the fight for Mars is long from over, the loyalists still in in control of numerous areas including the Noctis Labyrinthus and Arcadia(which is a rather large quadrangle of Mars). The loyalists were hit hard in _Mechanicum_, but the novel only revolved around a very small part of the red planet after all, who knows just how many Mechanicum loyalists were spread out over the rest of the planet.




hailene said:


> All the fleets in the universe don't matter so long as they're not in the Sol system. Horus had complete control of Sol. He could rapidly reinforce or bombard anything outside the protective umbrella of void shields. This means the Loyalists were largely bottled up. Minus any sneak attacks.
> 
> The Loyalists could not afford to take any ground for long without risk of getting annihilated from orbit. This further limited the resources at their disposal.


The loyalists never intended to leave the void shielded areas though. Their goal was to defend the Imperial Palace, they would have long since given up on the rest of Terra, as the populace found out when the Emperors Children ran amok through the hab sectors. So in large his orbital supremacy did nothing to stop the defence of the Palace, they had no intention of going anywhere. 

The Khan would have been shrewd enough to stay too close too the traitor ground forces that he couldn't be bombed from orbit without significant losses to the traitors as well. Even then he took the Lions Gate spaceport and provided yet another void protected bastion that the traitors would now have to attack from the ground, thus dividing their strength, the Death Guard specifically withdrawing from the Palace siege to lay siege to Lions Gate. More would have to stay back and now defend the Eternity Wall space port which came under numerous attacks as well after the success at Lions Gate. The taking of the space port as well as the Khans continued has been said caused havoc on the traitor supply lines. So their supplies were hardly efficient for all of their orbital supremacy.

As for the loyalists having limited resources at their disposal. You forget that Dorn had spent eight years fortifying the Palace, you can guarantee they would have had an enormous amount of supplies stockpiled for the expected siege, this is Dorn we're talking about. He knows how to run a defence, which links in to not being able to waste his resources on Mars, instead piling them all into Terra.




hailene said:


> Also, unlike Horus who had planned the Heresy for years, the Loyalists forces were scattered and off-balance.


But again, Dorn had eight years to plan his defence, just as Horus had that time to plan it, though he also had to co-ordinate other campaigns and efforts. Dorn didn't, Dorn was able to singularly concentrate on bolstering Terras defence and pulling all he could to his side. We only ever hear about the Legions, but you can bet your ass that a massive number of Imperial Army forces, Titan Legions and other forces under the Imperiums control would have reached Terra in those eight years. Dorn recalled all forces to Terra, not just the Legios, everyone. Even off-balance as they were, the three loyalist legions on Terra were in a very formidable position. And without wanting to harp on about it, Dorn would have planned for every eventuality, Horus would have to completed a lot of guess work as to what Dorn will have inevitably changed on Terra during the age of darkness.




hailene said:


> From the Fourth Edition CSM codex:
> 
> "All across the galaxy many of the Emperor's greatest works had fallen and his forces were in disarray...Such was the position when the forces of Horus gathered around Earth. The Lunar bases, bastion of the fleet, fell to Horus following brief but hard fighting, and soon the rebel fleet was in control of the orbital space around Earth. Raining fire down upon the Imperial Seat, Horus' battleships dueled with planetary defence lasers, crushing them with a heavy bombardment from space--the Space Marine Legions had been created with planetary assault as their primary role and it was a strategy they had perfected during the Great Crusade."
> 
> ...


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

That's right Haliene. They did need more time. But essentially that was the problem since the beginning of the battle. It was a battle of time. They took over the space ports with lasers, but their main object was throwing everything at the wall. How else can we explain how the White Scars were able to retake one of the space ports. They were able to leave the palace and hit and run. You have proof showing that the traitors were in complete control but the specifics aren't really there. The fact is, do you really think based on their numbers they had that much superiority? You see the current numbers of astartes of the traitor legions, but my question is based on that and the fact that the numbers are probably a lot less than what the forum(we) is showing, does that really look like a superior battle force? Clearly there is more information that has not been presented. 

And though the loyalists did rely on raw fire power to destroy the walls it causes problems when one says it was just an exchange of fire power from both sides. Its not so simple as that. Cannon fodder essentially is a way of relocating fire power to unimportant forces so that your "important" forces are able to direct their fire power better (or other tactics, just in this situation it would be fire power) with less interruption. 

It would have taken more time if the traitor forces were relying on pure brute fire power to take down the walls. They would constantly have to worry about their siege weapons, and titans being picked off. If that was the case, the siege would have taken a lot longer. 

I should also mention that you should take codexes with a grain of salt. They often present great fluff facts, however one should keep in mind the context. This is obviously fluff to motivate chaos players, and though their is _some_ truth to it, there is a lot of missing specifics. Can you see the World Eaters and Death Guard working in perfect coherence with one another? I mentioned those two and the Emperor's Children, and I was wondering what you think about self destructiveness of the legions. Angron nearly lost the Battle of Istvaan (when purging the loyalist elements). Fulgrim's self destructiveness is shown in _Angel Exterminatus_ and the fact is they abbadoned the siege because of their newly found devotion. I wouldn't be surprised if the Death Guard happen to be on the same page when we hear about them. Knowing these facts and the fact that they already are much reduced in number through there disperse in the galaxy and the battle they have already fought, does this superiority really show with the facts you presented? 

You say "it doesn't sound like," but again I would say be careful the context. Clearly Horus had been able to accomplish all the necessary actions that he needed to do in order to win. In the end the hour glass had finished and Horus was forced to let the Emperor into his ship. That was not the battle he wished to fight. If it was then he would have probably let the sheilds down sooner. In _Collected Visions_ it should be noted, that the battle was regarded as a "stalemate," until the breaching of the walls. Even after they were able to breach and overrun the walls, they were not able to overrun the palace. It should be noted also (because it is not stated probably in any of the chaos codexes) that the Imperial fists Fortress blew itself off and essentially clogged the Traitors assault. Not to mention basically killing all the traitors inside the wall. 

From here there are two ways of looking at this. One, it was clogged and the traitors just couldn't enter the palace. Which I think is a bit absurd. Or you can say they had burned up too much of their force to do another assault on the loyalists.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Dorn knew he couldn't afford to lose the amount of men it would take to recapture Mars, he essentially took what he could and left them to fend for themselves, knowing that his duty was to protect Terra. We know from _Angel Exterminatus_ that the fight for Mars is long from over, the loyalists still in in control of numerous areas including the Noctis Labyrinthus and Arcadia(which is a rather large quadrangle of Mars). The loyalists were hit hard in _Mechanicum_, but the novel only revolved around a very small part of the red planet after all, who knows just how many Mechanicum loyalists were spread out over the rest of the planet.


Dorn planned on retaking the entirety of Mars. From a conversation between him and Malcador in _Mechanicum_,

‘I shall send Sigismund and my four companies of Imperial Fists to secure the forges of Mars. Mondus Occulum and Mondus Gamma produce the bulk of the armour and weapons of the Astartes. We will strike there to capture those forges and when they are ours, we will push outwards and secure the others.’

The initial plan was to recapture Mars. They had to bail on that plan when they realized what a poor position the Loyalist adepts were in.



Angel of Blood said:


> The loyalists never intended to leave the void shielded areas though. Their goal was to defend the Imperial Palace, they would have long since given up on the rest of Terra


Precisely? They never intended to leave because they couldn't really leave. That limits their resources even more. Rather than having the resources of the stretches of Terra they could hold, they're limited to the Palace.



Angel of Blood said:


> As for the loyalists having limited resources at their disposal. You forget that Dorn had spent eight years fortifying the Palace, you can guarantee they would have had an enormous amount of supplies stockpiled for the expected siege, this is Dorn we're talking about. He knows how to run a defence, which links in to not being able to waste his resources on Mars, instead piling them all into Terra.


The Martian civil war occurred before Istvaan V. How much could Dorn take from the rest of the Imperium? When the entire Imperium was in upheaval? 

He only managed to get 12,000 suits of armor and 24,000 weapons from Mars before his forces had to abandon it. How quickly do you figure they the Loyalist forces would have run through those stockpiles in a protracted siege like the Siege of Terra?



Angel of Blood said:


> Perhaps not. The point is though, they wouldn't have stood a chance against the inbound loyalist fleets, Horus knew that, hence the lowering of the shields.


Probably not. At least not without taking more causalities than would be acceptable. The Traitor fleets were more or less untouched. The Imperial Fists and Ultramarines fleets were roughed up pretty hard.

But we're not debating whether or not Horus's forces could have fended off Imperial reinforcements...

ckcrawford thought ~500,000 traitor marines wasn't enough to take the Palace. Not against ~325,000 Loyalists. I wrote that Horus had several advantages--having complete control of the solar system being one of them. Whether or not Horus could have defeated the Loyalist fleet reinforcements is moot. I just brought up the point that Horus has a lot more freedom to move around his troops and resupply from outside sources than the Loyalists on Terra.



Angel of Blood said:


> Yes the loyalists would ultimately lose, but they had done exactly what they needed to do, held off the traitors until the inevitable reinforcements arrived. The traitors needed days to breach the Palace, they only had hours. Gambit failed.


True, the gambit failed, but it was by a narrow margin. ckcrawford said that the Traitors had no chance. I disagreed. A little bit more luck one way or another would have seen a Traitor victory.

Heck, if the Chaos gods just held off the reinforcement fleets back for another week or so I think Horus could have taken the day. Barring some sort of miracle.



ckcrawford said:


> You have proof showing that the traitors were in complete control but the specifics aren't really there. The fact is, do you really think based on their numbers they had that much superiority?


I said the Traitors had supremacy in _space_. I will admit that the traitors also seemed to have an advantage on the ground, but even a superior force (at least to the degree the Traitors seemed to be) can't be everywhere at once.

I haven't read the specifics of the retaking of the Lion's Gate Spaceport, but didn't the Traitors eventually retake it from the Khan?



ckcrawford said:


> It would have taken more time if the traitor forces were relying on pure brute fire power to take down the walls. They would constantly have to worry about their siege weapons, and titans being picked off. If that was the case, the siege would have taken a lot longer.


That's precisely what they did. They tried to storm the walls. A few days fighting showed that they weren't going to take the walls that way.

They blew up the wall with firepower. They stormed the breech and started fighting through the Palace.



ckcrawford said:


> . In _Collected Visions_ it should be noted, that the battle was regarded as a "stalemate," until the breaching of the walls. Even after they were able to breach and overrun the walls, they were not able to overrun the palace. It should be noted also (because it is not stated probably in any of the chaos codexes) that the Imperial fists Fortress blew itself off and essentially clogged the Traitors assault. Not to mention basically killing all the traitors inside the wall.


The Chaos codex states that "The last hours of humanity had come and the few remaining gallant defenders prepared themselves for certain death. The Legions of Horus poured into the Imperial Palace in an unstoppable wave..."

I don't think the Emperor knew reinforcements were coming, else he wouldn't have risked it all on the Vengeful Spirit. The Emperor saw the situation was bad enough that he had to try an all or nothing gamble to win the battle.
~~~~~~

I have work+finals this week, so I won't be able to respond until Thursday evening or so?

I'll be awaiting your responses! Feel free to keep the discussion rolling and I'll pop back in when I can.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I feel you hailene. I actually need to come here time to time. I had to read Hobbes and Tocqueville in two days. I felt brain dead. So I totally understand your situation with finals.



hailene said:


> He only managed to get 12,000 suits of armor and 24,000 weapons from Mars before his forces had to abandon it. How quickly do you figure they the Loyalist forces would have run through those stockpiles in a protracted siege like the Siege of Terra?
> 
> Thats actually a lot if you consider that suits of armor and weapons are often precious. Don't forget also that _Mechanicum_ takes place before Black Library decided that tens of thousands was the accurate number for legions. If you see it in this context, fluff would suggest he was able to get enough supplies to supply an entire legion or even more.
> 
> ...


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Sorry, I had some things to do after finals and everything.

I read your post, and was about to reply with a similar one like we have so far, but I got to thinking...

What exactly are we discussing? Whether or not Horus could have stormed the Imperial Palace with a 5:3 number superiority (at least in terms of Space Marines)?


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## Valrak (Jul 23, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> But that doesn't agree with the established fluff, it specifically states he had run out of time, the loyalist fleets of the Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines wasn't expected at all, certainly not as fast as they did. It states that lowering the shields was a last ditch gambit from Horus, he had never planned to do so. The Palace would have fallen, perhaps in a few days or a week I remember it saying, but the loyalist fleets were only hours away, forcing his hand.




I think they will play this out with established Character, I don't think Horus will lower his void shields. I think Little Horus will come to his senses and in a last ditch act of redemption will lower them, thus being killed, thus allowing the Emperor to teleport onto the ship.

I can dream right?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

hailene said:


> I don't think the Emperor knew reinforcements were coming, else he wouldn't have risked it all on the Vengeful Spirit. The Emperor saw the situation was bad enough that he had to try an all or nothing gamble to win the battle.


Whilst I don't think we know for sure, in "Collected Visions" Horus orders all Imperial communication (physical and warp-based) to be severed to prevent them learning of the incoming Imperial reinforcements. Couple that with the Emperor's lack of prescience, I think it's more logical to suggest the Emperor was unaware of the en route Imperial Fleets.



Valrak said:


> I think they will play this out with established Character, I don't think Horus will lower his void shields. I think Little Horus will come to his senses and in a last ditch act of redemption will lower them, thus being killed, thus allowing the Emperor to teleport onto the ship.
> 
> I can dream right?


Quite simply, we don't know why Horus lowered his shields. We have been given at least three conflicting reasons in the lore, with most simply claiming his intentions were unknown. It will be interesting to see what path the Heresy series takes with this.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I was also a fan of the idea that Aximand might lower the shields in a last ditch act of redemption, but after his short story in _Age of Darkness_, I'm a lot less inclined to believe he will do anything of the sort. To me, by the end of the short, Aximand has gotten over his doubts and more willingly embraced what they have done. Though of course his acceptance and relief are due to him being convinced that Loken is dead. If you didn't think the two would have a show down before, now it seems even more likely, probably complete with the classic 'No! Your dead!' line.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

Am I right in thinking that all of the orbital defences around Terra were down when Horus' shields were taken down? Otherwise the guns on the surface, in orbit and on other loyal ships would of blown his boat to pieces


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yes, all of the orbital platforms and the luna base were destroyed and whatever was left of the Imperial fleet chases off. Many ground sites would have been bombarded, but they would have had to land under fire from the Palace itself as well as the Lions Gate and Eternity space ports. Once the two space ports were taken, was pretty much negligible. Which is why Khan taking the Lions Gate space port back hampered the traitors so much.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Yes, all of the orbital platforms and the luna base were destroyed and whatever was left of the Imperial fleet chases off. Many ground sites would have been bombarded, but they would have had to land under fire from the Palace itself as well as the Lions Gate and Eternity space ports. Once the two space ports were taken, was pretty much negligible. Which is why Khan taking the Lions Gate space port back hampered the traitors so much.


Oh why did they use the Death Guard for such as task to deal with the White Scars, I will never know.

I could just see typhus try to bring his reaper down in an oozy and slimy motion while the white scars just drove out of range. Its like driving a car out of a zombie range, shooting them and driving again.


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