# The Chapterhouse row rumbles on...



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

And I thought it had all been resolved in their favour. Apparently not.



> Our assets have been frozen.
> Yes, thats pretty much the issue. Many of you may know that Games Workshop has been in a legal battle with us for almost 4 years now.. maybe its 5...
> Anyways, they have asked the courts to freeze our assets and this has happened, this happened early September, not long after I posted the photos of the last set of products that were being produced and almost ready to ship.
> What does this mean? #1 we have no means to ship or produce or pay for anything... and I mean anything, internet, phone, gas, nothing. We cant use or accept funds (well technically we can accept but I wont do that without a means to ship out new orders).
> ...


https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10152689364295795&id=159482580794&fref=nf


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Sucks for them.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

> I wish it was better but its been very stressful and now I have learned that its not only my company at risk but my personal assets and home are being threatened as well now



Well done there GW. You are fucking stars..... *slow claps* :no:


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Tawa said:


> Well done there GW. You are fucking stars..... *slow claps*


I'm in two minds on this one. No one wants to see him lose his home, and what he does has no real impact on GW's bottom line, but at the same time he knew he was walking a legal tight rope, and continued to produce after receiving, by all accounts a shit ton, of C&D orders.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Dickhead is a dickhead and gets treated by dickheads as a dickhead.

I feel little sympathy outside of "ouch dude, I'm sorry you no longer have the brains you were born with". If you're making shady business practice and have your home set down as capital against that business, you kind of deserve what you get. That he continued to risk not only his own home, but that of his family, and then appoint the blame is pure and utter cowardice.

Considering the well known heavy handedness with which GW treats its IP, and the lengths it goes to to protect that IP (such as going as far as changing the name of part of its product line from Imperial Army to Astra Militarum, and removing access to "units" in the game which do not have a dedicated corresponding model or ensuring that such "units" do have a model), you'd have to be fucking special to continue to flagrantly breach C&D orders, especially when you are attempting to use the ongoing legal battle as "free" advertising (who honestly heard of chapterhouse until chapterhouse brought peoples attention to it?) and piggyback sales off it.


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## Logaan (May 10, 2012)

With Vaz on this. 

Chapterhouse have been on the IP tightrope for years and know full well that GW aren't exactly the type to piss off. 

Unfortunate but absolutely predictable.


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## Warhawk (Oct 2, 2014)

Based on all the hubbub and drama surrounding GW and IP, I am absolutely amazed these guys have been in operation for as long as they have. I've had people tell me that a non-commercial fan game not even directly related to existing GW games will bring down a C&D, but these guys were flat out casting models? Holy cow.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

What you get for being a dumbass. I'm not sure it's an option at this point but I'd say it's time to chuck in the towel and move the fuck on.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

I find it difficult to sympathise with either party. Chapterhouse is completely in the wrong and GW absolutely has the right to defend it's IP, but As always GW has a public image on par with baby-eating nazis. I wish they'd just fuck each other and get it over with.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

I've never heard of em.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

GW were always gonna play hard ball, they really have no choice but to use everything they can to keep chapterhouse under their heal .


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I wonder what this means for all the other third party minis we've seen lately, if GW will go after these companies next? 

We should get our orders done with them while GW is still beating CH down. :wink:


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> I wonder what this means for all the other third party minis we've seen lately, if GW will go after these companies next?
> 
> We should get our orders done with them while GW is still beating CH down. :wink:


I don't think it will change anything, the other indies have for the most part played ball and kept away from blatantly ripping of GW and more importantly kept away from using copyright and trade marks , Scibor has been doing compatible bitz longer than chapterhouse and has avoided a trip to court, now they are a thriving respected brand , same for Kromlek etc


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

I'm not entirely surprised here...


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

First and foremost I think is bad for the consumer if this has a chilling effect on the 3rd party market.

As far as Chapterhouse goes it's not terribly surprising. It's been a while since I heard anything about their legal battle. The last news I recall from maybe a year or more ago was much more in favor of chapterhouse.

I think Chapterhouse stepped over the line and I don't really like their products, but I like that they were part of the wave of producers opening up the market for 3rd party pieces.

And GW have borrowed so much of their IP from other sources (books, movies, etc.) that I'm always amazed at the vigor with which they defend their stolen goods.


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## Einherjar667 (Aug 23, 2013)

It all depends on if, in the eyes of the court, if an IP or copyright was infringed upon. What CH did was brazen and deserves the hammer. As an artist, and one who works closely in the IP and copyright field, I have ABSOLUTELY ZERO sympathy for Chapterhouse. Especially when you're going up againsr a company like GW that is known to be territorial and aggressive about depending things they own the copyright for(which is how they are able to mount these legal battles, by owning the copyright).


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Einherjar667 said:


> It all depends on if, in the eyes of the court, if an IP or copyright was infringed upon. What CH did was brazen and deserves the hammer. As an artist, and one who works closely in the IP and copyright field, I have ABSOLUTELY ZERO sympathy for Chapterhouse.


I would agree Chapterhouse was foolhardy.

However I find this concerning. The interesting thing about US IP law as I understand it is that nothing is certain until decided by a court. And the concept that people (in general, not chapterhouse in particular) shouldn't make 3rd party pieces because GW might get ornery is garbage.



Einherjar667 said:


> Especially when you're going up against a company like GW that is known to be territorial and aggressive about depending things they own the copyright for(which is how they are able to mount these legal battles, by owning the copyright).


My further understanding was that GW miscalculated the differences between USA and UK IP law and what is required to demonstrate ownership and therefore infringement beyond that. Not that I agree with chapterhouse, but I recall the case wasn't open and shut, and was much more nuanced.

Having an aggressive legal department doesn't make a company right, but it does give them an advantage in attrition. 

Between the 2 I like/support GW more than Chapterhouse, but between GW and independents and their ability to produce their own add-ons/similar units, I support the independents.


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## Einherjar667 (Aug 23, 2013)

I didn't intend to say that the bigger legal prowess is right, I meant, if you flash in the face of a company that is as aggressive as GW, don't be shocked when you get a C&D letter (which Chapterhouse surely got, and likely ignored as this issue made it to court).

There is no doubt that the translation between US and UK copyright laws could get a bit lost, but that end of the legal spectrum I am pretty fuzzy on. Here in the US, you have to apply for Copyrights, and once you get it then it's yours (pending renewall). This will give you the upper hand when it gets to court, but in the end, if challenged or disputed in any way, a court will have to decide issues like that, but the US Copyright office is the one to hand out the initial copyright.

Indie model makers shouldn't fear as long as they tend to their own ideas and not step on other companies toes(not just GW).


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

I think that's fair.


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

Funny thing about the US Copyright thing ... GW did apply for some copyrights and were denied for things like Roman Numerals and other things. The courts sanctioned GW Counsel because they tried to hide this during discovery and CH ended up finding out about it. The vast majority of the claims GW brought were denied (something like 70% IIRC) and the rest have been taken to appeals.

Do I think that what CH has done was illegal? Not sure. I did read court transcripts that said that GW tried to pull a bunch of shiesty shit and got caught. My real problem with this harkens back to the old fight between K&N air filters and the big three of Detroit. They tried to stop K&N from offering an aftermarket filter that would fit your car. They wanted to force the consumer to purchase air filters from them. The big three went as far as to deny warranties if people were using a K&N air filter.

After a lengthy court battle the verdict that came down was one that came to this: If the big three wanted to void warranties because people were using aftermarket air filters, then the big three had to provide air filters to their customers, free of charge, to the customers for the life of the warranty. 

This was a boon for the customers as it allowed an aftermarket product that would not void warranties. In this case it allows aftermarket parts for the miniature market, which is a fairly small market anyways, as GW has had the problem of releasing rules but not models for their games.

On a side note ... I find it funny that they refuse to call their miniatures toys in the UK because if they do then they are not covered under the IP laws.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Whilst there are a couple of thingy's I wanted from CH, I'm not defending him. The fact that he has continued with producing the stuff he has after multiple smacks strikes me as pants-on-head at best, but the whole personal assets thing got on my tits 

Anyways.....


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Literally everybody told him this would happen. Myself included. And he continued to be a huge dick about it and insist that he'd be able to do this somehow. Like, if I started selling Mickey Mouse ears, and call them Mickey Mouse ears, and say Disney isn't going to sue me because they're slightly different than the Mickey Mouse ears that Disney makes, I deserve the painful legal sodomy that's going to be inflicted on me by Disney's legal team. Similarly, if everyone tells you "No, don't stick your dick in the live lamp light socket!" and you do it anyway, that's on you. These things all apply to Chapterhouse. 

I'm sorry to hear he's going to lose his house and livelihood, but like... you can't just steal from a major company (or any company) and expect there to not be serious consequences. And yes, he definitely did steal from Games Workshop-- he ripped off their IP explicitly and wholesale, with intent to produce copywritten material without paying any royalty on it. I'm not surprised this is happening, either. This is someone who thinks that paying damages to Games Workshop, on top of having to stop selling more than half their product range, is having a case ruled in their favor. 

I'm a far cry from a GW fanboy. That being said, Chapterhouse's arrogance always put me off. As a store owner myself, I appreciate the zeal with which Games Workshop protects their IP-- ensuring the GW range maintains its individuality and its value protects MY livelihood at this point.


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## mrknify (May 15, 2014)

Falcon party's should sue gw. Dont they own the word miniatures?

Gw is being a spoiled brat. Ch has every right to make mods for our toys. We use mods in so many things, skyrim, wot, wow, if it is illegal for ch to make mods the it should be illegal for us to mod our toys. If we cant mod our toys, the they should come assembled and pre-painted, this way the artist who created it wont have his/her feelings hurt.

Yup sums it up. Btw gw's excuse for not allowing non-gw mods is EXACTLY that. 

Cheers. My 2¢


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## Einherjar667 (Aug 23, 2013)

Very wrong, if GW claims ownership of a copyright to their IP, then it is their right to protect that IP, much the same Marvel would sue you for publishing and selling alternative stories of Spiderman or the X men. It has to do with CH PROFITING from the sale of this copyright infringement, not the generation or production of it. I can make alternative Spiderman stories and drawings all I want, but I can NOT profit from the likeness of Spiderman and/or his themes. That is how copyrights work, and helps protect professional artists such as myself. CH has every right to create mods, but they have absolutely no right to profit from them.


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## Warhawk (Oct 2, 2014)

Einherjar667 said:


> Very wrong, if GW claims ownership of a copyright to their IP, then it is their right to protect that IP, much the same Marvel would sue you for publishing and selling alternative stories of Spiderman or the X men. It has to do with CH PROFITING from the sale of this copyright infringement, not the generation or production of it. I can make alternative Spiderman stories and drawings all I want, but I can NOT profit from the likeness of Spiderman and/or his themes. That is how copyrights work, and helps protect professional artists such as myself. CH has every right to create mods, but they have absolutely no right to profit from them.


Only so long as the mods specifically reference Spiderman.

Perhaps this might clear things up, since I'm among those very recently acquainted with this whole mess: Just how much of Chapterhouse's stock was deliberately named after, designed based on, and meant for 40k? After all, the 40k universe is so broad that any number of designs for the same weapon, bolter, lasgun or otherwise, could all apply. Same with the infamous Mycetic Spore: What if it were renamed to "Alien Invasion Capsule"?

If CH was using GW terms, symbols, etc. then they're clearly in the wrong. But if GW is going after them because they were making guns, clothing, and equipment for miniatures that just so happened to be the same scale and proportions, how could GW possibly be in the right?


Now as far as my own observations are concerned: Their website may be shot, but their facebook page is not, and it's hit and miss. On one hand, the names of their creations are predominantly generic. On the other, they flat out reference Space Marine Terminators and White Scars. They also use the White Scars symbol, and even have an Aquila on a belly plate. Going further back shows a kickstarter 'entirely predicated' on 'compatibility' with "Necrons, Tau, and Eldar," without even the pretense of wide-application by referencing other tabletop games, settings, etc.

I think this explains everything in a nutshell, including the sweeping legal victories CH saw prior: Their tendency to harp on 40k applications, and occasionally use directly ripped symbols, damns them. _But not all of the time_. And yet it's like watching someone with multiple personalities: Can't make up their minds.

It's kind of ironic, in a way. In both cases, both companies have a lot going for them, and then some series of decisions from high up screws over everybody beneath them, from the workers to the players. Chapterhouse already garnered attention having made these (apparently quality?) ripoffs in the first place, so why couldn't they just let it die and then ride that new reputation into more varied and worthy pursuits? Similarly, GW finally found a target justifying its rampaging IP protection policies, but is liable to win in a way that utterly destroys CH rather than grant it room to reform (admittedly debatable due to the length of time).

And you know what they say about "Those who live by the sword..."


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## mrknify (May 15, 2014)

Einherjar667 said:


> Very wrong, if GW claims ownership of a copyright to their IP, then it is their right to protect that IP, much the same Marvel would sue you for publishing and selling alternative stories of Spiderman or the X men. It has to do with CH PROFITING from the sale of this copyright infringement, not the generation or production of it. I can make alternative Spiderman stories and drawings all I want, but I can NOT profit from the likeness of Spiderman and/or his themes. That is how copyrights work, and helps protect professional artists such as myself. CH has every right to create mods, but they have absolutely no right to profit from them.


Space marine is not owned by gw, that's why they are changing the name. Orks are not owned by gw. Otherwise gw should sue mantic games.


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## Einherjar667 (Aug 23, 2013)

mrknify said:


> Space marine is not owned by gw, that's why they are changing the name. Orks are not owned by gw. Otherwise gw should sue mantic games.


 That is neither here nor there in this dispute.


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

But it was put forth by GW that the shoulder pads that CH was selling was an infringement on GW's IP ... which GW had absolutely no right to claim as they tried to get a copyright on it and our patent office said ... no, THREE times. GW laid many false claims when they went after CH, and actually ended up losing more than they gained. I can make a kit that is compatible with "Power Armour" and sell it as such.

GW wanted to say that they held the CR to things that they in fact did not. They actually went through their archives and had to ask artists, whose work they have been using for years, to sign a document giving GW all the rights to the artwork .... after the trial started. Some did, some did not.

Claiming ownership and actually having ownership of some IP are two different things ... GW found this out at trial.


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## Bindi Baji (Apr 23, 2009)

Tawa said:


> Whilst there are a couple of thingy's I wanted from CH, I'm not defending him. The fact that he has continued with producing the stuff he has after multiple smacks strikes me as pants-on-head at best, but the whole personal assets thing got on my tits
> 
> Anyways.....


Indeed, 
if he had taken the smacks as wake up calls and had changed direction (like countless others have) and moved away from taking the piss he'd have been fine now, 
he didn't and now he's paying the price,
in the words of Led Zeppelin


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

@Einherjar667, as it happens a number of our forum mates recalled the specifics better than I did. I read a lot of the court proceedings as well but they didn't stick in my memory. 

@OIIIIIIO, the air filter case perfect embodies my concern about this case. It stifles competition and diversity in the market place.

On further reflection, it seems like Chapterhouse's main failure has been to label their products too specifically, e.g. the product "is a Space Wolf" instead of "is compatible with Space Wolves."

If I recall correctly, part of the issue for GW is that they can't copyright an idea, they can copyright a work but not an abstract concept. And a number of their concepts are so broad on paper as to be almost indefensible.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

The case has had quite a few different facets as time has gone on, I have followed it quite closely since before chapterhouse got their first C&D letter, in my opinion chapterhouse is only still in existence through the guys arrogance and massive dose of good fortune, what has never been in question is any company being allowed to produce after market products compatible with 40k, they can and do, and done correctly,it leaves GW no legal leg to stand on, the reason chapterhouse went to court was two fold,first they didn't do enough to separate themselves from GW, they knew there products were not of sufficient quality to sell by there own merit, so they used GWS trademarks to directly associate them to GW and the second reason was they believed that GW couldn't do anything about it and we're willing to go to court.

Then to make matters worse they expanded into filling model range gaps (this is where I believe the community has really lost out) from codex entries, making alternate weapons and shoulder pads is one thing, but producing kits or conversion kits is crossing the line, particularly when you also name and market them using GW terminology. This has hurt the community directly as those codex entries has been removed from the codex, so people who scratch built or converted these models have now lost the chance to field them thanks to chapterhouse, Ok arguably GW shouldn't make a codex entry without a kit, but they had been doing this for 20 years and it allowed modelers and games a level of creativity that sadly is now reduced. Chapterhouse (and many members of the community) honestly believed that by GW not producing a kit but including the rules and artwork in the codex meant it was fair game, now i can see both sides of this argument, but the 40k universe much like many other scifi universes has loads of fluff and art that doesnt have physical model or toy form,i dont believe that gives permission for another company to come along and produce it without atleast giving GW a substantial license fee anyway. 

Then there is the America facet, GW were caught with there pants down as to what the US legal system allows you to protect and how to go about it, GW being a UK company assumed they were protected and that the US legal system would easily see what everyone else in the world could see and that chapterhouse were very blatantly taking the piss and would rule in GWs favor, add to that the miraculous attachment of the US ' major IP law firm to the case as pro bone lawyers on behalf of chapterhouse and then things got stupid.

Even after the case ended and chapterhouse were told to pay damages to GW for infringement and remove a significant number of his models from sale and change the infringing terminology on his site he still tried to claim victory?????

Yes GW were told some things were not protected and they have made moves to rectify that but they still won , they just didn't win on every aspect, but they are still the damaged party.

Im surprised this is still going on, but im not surprised its turned sour for chapterhouse, im surprised he didnt settle out of court and walk away, from the court transcripts detailed his income for the company,and it was hardly worth this kind of stress and certainly not worth loosing his house and possessions over, it was modest, but realistically hes never going to be free of GW, they are going to watch every single thing he ever releases and any time they think hes broken the rules, they will drag him back into court, he may be pro bono now but that wont last forever, but GW legal will never let this go until he is out of business.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Just been reading that chapterhouse still haven't delivered alot of people's kickstarter that they backed over a year ago too, alot of unhappy folks .


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