# High Elves army questions



## burton001 (Jan 24, 2012)

I have only had 1 army Skaven. However I recently acquired another army - High Elves. Dragon, cavalry, arches and spearmen, hawk, and i think a couple other units. Ive never played and haven't gotten the book yet, just wondering if anybody has any advice on what units are good, which ones are not. Units to pick up in the future, anything to help. Thanks,


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Generally:

Lords/Heroes- archmage and BSB noble would be my pick of characters, but a secondary mage (or primary caster if you are saving points) is decent and you can make some pretty decent combat characters. Don't bother with anything flashy such as a dragon.. they just aren't worth it. As far as SCs go Teclis is amazing but way too powerful (I suggest not using him in friendly games), caradryan is immense and korhil is pretty fun... the others I've never really been bothered by.

Core- rubbish but you need 25%... don't fill more then you need to. Avoid archers

Special- phoenix guard, white lions and swordmasters are awesome, chariots are OK, cavalry is rubbish.

Rare- eagles are cool, RBTs are not. 2 Eagles is all teh rare I would ever take ina HE army


Basically, my idea of a HE army goes something like this:
archmage- lv4 and tooled to be nasty (such as a 4++ save)
BSB Noble- great weapon but magic items tooled to defense
Large spearmen unit to fill min core
1-2 blocks of special infantry of your choice, one carrying the banner of sorcery, (preferable on PGs but WLs work ok)
1-2 eagles for warmachine hunting/ pissing off the enemy
... few other things to personalise the army.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

I'll have to agree with T/S on Archers. I really, really wish they were not necessary, but, terrible as they are, you need ten ablative wounds for your Archmage, and Archers are those wounds. Take ten and glower at them for being such worthless bastards.

Fill the rest of your core with Spearmen. _Under no circumstances take even one model more than you have to in core_.


You'll want at least one Eagle in every army over 500 points. Two over 1'000 or maybe 1'500. Three to four over 2'500.


White Lions are probably the best all-round Specials, they have good defence at range and high Strength, but loose out slightly in pure killing power. I love my Swordmasters - they are killing machines, pure and simple, run 'em 7x2. Phoenix Guard are very survivable, but you'll wish they had more than STR4. Try the Razor Banner.

Our Cavalry isn't world-class, but Dragon Princes can be something special if you know how to use them.


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## Anilar (Aug 12, 2011)

Go to Ulthuan.net for great eagle tactics, they have the first 8 or 9 almost different roles the eagles can do for your army.

A friendly game it can be quite fun to bring a dragon, but if you play to be competitive and want to win, you need to fill your army with the special infantery choices, like the previous people have wrote.

Don't know who or what you play against, but a friend of mine often comes with 28 high elf spearman in one block, 7 wide. That is 29 attacks, and if they have been boosted with the shadow spell, that make there Leadership value into there strength value its just plain crazy. And a solid enough center for your army.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yup, Okkam's Mindrazor is nasty as fook on HE in general, but especially spearmen since it turns a fairly rubbish unit into pure death on a stick.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

Anilar said:


> Go to Ulthuan.net for great eagle tactics, they have the first 8 or 9 almost different roles the eagles can do for your army.


That's true. Ulthuan.net is a great forum. This is the Eagle tactica, and well worth reading.



Anilar said:


> A friendly game it can be quite fun to bring a dragon, but if you play to be competitive and want to win, you need to fill your army with the special infantery choices, like the previous people have wrote.


That's also true. The Dragons are fun, but not competative.



Anilar said:


> Don't know who or what you play against, but a friend of mine often comes with 28 high elf spearman in one block, 7 wide. That is 29 attacks, and if they have been boosted with the shadow spell, that make there Leadership value into there strength value its just plain crazy. And a solid enough center for your army.


I've often been tempted to run spears 6-7 wide, but honestly, all they're good for is ranks, not attacks, and let's face it - _nothing_ else in the High Elf book is bringing Steadfast to the table so you need your spears for that.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Spearmen 10 wide and 5-7 deep are an incredibly evil block. It normally out powers most units (50 S3 attacks that normally reroll to hit is evil) but will be steadfast against pretty much any enemy nasty enough to beat them. If they do get beaten they're normally able to stay in combat until a special infantry block can flank charge the enemy or until a spellcaster can buff them (Wyssan's, flesh to stone or Okkam's all make it a pretty one sided affair).
... its not the worlds greatest unit but at ~600pts it fills min core for 2k armies nicely while providing a nasty anvil unit for your army.

Then again, if you do meet something truly horrifying you can just reform to be 5 wide and 10 deep and try to get +T or +Sv spells on the unit (like earthblood or shield of sapphery) and let it just stay steadfast for a good long while.



Personally this is why I always took spearmen instead of any other core- archers don't do much for their points and LSG may be more versatile but don't give you the numebrs you need to make a similarly nasty unit. Though I only had about 40 spearmen so I normally just went 8 wide *5 deep (with a warbanner), giving me 32 attacks and making me fairly nasty... it certainly wasn't the best way to use them but then I didn't have more spearmen and wasn't willing to buy more (I didn't like my HE much, and have sold most since).


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

I have seen the best armies with a lvl 4 and a lvl 2 with combos of lores of shadow, life and beasts (only lvl 2). The ann. crystal is very good. Basically, shadow allows you to nerf enemy with miasma, enfeeble and withering; pit of shades war machines and lower I armies (lizardmen saurus and stegs; ogres; orcs and trolls; vampire counts and tomb kings, or use miasma to lower I and then pit), and mindrazor makes your high leadership/ASF units, including spearmen amazing because their high LD becomes their S for attacks. When Miasma lowers I, it can allow your HE armies to re-roll to hit even against high initiative characters and can lower the WS such that opposing rank and file are now hitting back on 5's instead of 4's. Life is great for throne of vines allowing you to avoid miscasts and boosting toughness with flesh to stone. A unit of high elves go from T3 to T7 with flesh to stone if throne of vines is up and becomes an entirely different unit when that tough. Plus life gives 5+ regen, regrowth and restores wounds on a character in range for each successful cast. Beasts are taken for the signature spell (+1S, +1T makes a world of difference for S3, T3 elves) and some of the other spells can really boost a character and kill something tough with a spear. 

Banner of Sorcery is almost a must take. 

One of the biggest benefits is the abililty of high elf characters to take great weapons and still have ASF. 

I still think Silver Helms and Dragon Princes have a place as flankers and to deal with smaller units and certain stuff. 

Unfortunately, HE fast cav is just not points efficient and HE scouts are not quite good enough to play. 

Eagles are necessary but too easily shot and killed. HE armies really need more and better rare choices. Repeater bolts were good in 7th edition, but with only two crew and two wounds in 8th edition, just don't do enough damage to justify the expense and don't survive long enough to justify their shooting abilities. 

HE armies were designed to be elite armies with min core and lots of special units. The 25% core requirement really hurt them a lot in 8th edition by making them spend more on core than in 7th edition. That being said, I've seen them run competitively but they are really out of favour right now in our regional tourneys. There was only one HE army out of 42 players at an Indy GT I was at this weekend, whereas there were typical 3 to 6 HE armies in 7th edition.

The weakness of the army is to good shooting armies, especially dwarf grudges with boosted S and empire mortars that use 5" template hits. You lack the armour (except on fighting characters) and lack the toughness to survive such hits, and magic spells the hit whole units and test or wound against the base S or T of the models. Unless restricted by tourney rules, dwellers from the lore of life can kill half a unit and 50% of your mages and 1/3 of your fighting characters in a unit in one cast with no saves at all.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yeah, dweller's is just stupid. Its the best character sniping spell in the game, hits every character in a unit and as a little bonus hits all other models in the unit as well... and there is no bonus to having ward saves or magic resistance. Hate that that spell made it into the BRB.

Lv4 archmages with lore of shadow backed up by a lv2 with beasts for wyssan's is an awesome combo and hard to argue against: it basically gives you all the magic you would ever really want... especially if you give the archmage the silver wand and the mage jewel of the dusk.

If you are going to take heavy cav I prefer silver helms: they can have the same save as DPs but cost less. They can still beat most of the things you want to beat, but are also more of a cost effective tarpit... though I don't really care for either.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

Tim/Steve said:


> Yeah, dweller's is just stupid. Its the best character sniping spell in the game, hits every character in a unit and as a little bonus hits all other models in the unit as well... and there is no bonus to having ward saves or magic resistance. Hate that that spell made it into the BRB.


You knew the risks when you put all your characters in your 'invincible' deathstar.

And if you _didn't_ put all your characters in your 'invincible' deathstar, then Dwellers is no worse than a lot of other spells that can kill Elves with ease.

It's a trade-off. Me, I put my Archmage in a block of ten Archers, so I generally fear things like the Ruby Ring more. Anyone who can throw a couple of Magic Missiles downrange in one turn has a real shot of taking him out much easier than trying to hit him with a 12" 24+ to cast nuke.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Never mentioned a deathstar... it is just as nasty against small units.

You mention an archmage in a unit of 10 archers and your fear of magic missiles: a 2D6 S4 magic missile should kill about 4-5 archers, which is fairly nasty. Dwellers would kill about 5 archers and give your ~300pt lord a 50% chance of dying instantly.

Compare dwellers with any of the character sniping spells and it gets ridiculous... even if you ignore that dweller's hits anything else (so have it only targettiing the character). Fate of Bjuna is the most powerful death sniping spell (from a lore of sniping), which has max range 12" will normally only do 3-4 wounds and even then they can be resisted by regen/ward+MR. Golden Hounds has a range of up to 24" and would be very nasty if you don't havea look out sir, but is normally only going to do a wound or maybe 2 if you are very lucky.. and if you have a decent ward it'll be pissing in the wind.
Dwellers on the other hand just comes up to most characters and says 50% or 33% chance of immediate death with no chance of avoidance.

I think that the next edition may see a change to MR- that it gives +1 to ward saves per level against wounds caused or +1 to characteristics per level against characteristic tests. Even then dwellers will be well worth casting, even against a MR3 unit if there is an important charater(s) in there.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

Tim/Steve said:


> You mention an archmage in a unit of 10 archers and your fear of magic missiles: a 2D6 S4 magic missile should kill about 4-5 archers, which is fairly nasty. Dwellers would kill about 5 archers and give your ~300pt lord a 50% chance of dying instantly.


Yes, that's about the size of it, that means anyone who can cast two magic missiles/turn has a worthwhile chance of killing my Archmage on turn one (and every turn thereafter it goes up), and it's far easier and less risky than betting all your marbles on one IF casting of Dwellers in turn 3+.

Dwellers is a hell of a spell, probably even the best of the Nukes (depending on if you classigy Okkam's as a nuke) but game breaking it aint, and character sniping is not its best application. If you cast dwellers on my Mage bunker, I'm almost (almost, mark you) releaved since I can and have won games without Mages, but loosing 50% of my Spears or Swordmmasters is propper scary.


The reason I _like_ Dwellers as it is is because, while it's an imperfect character sniping spell, it is a very real reason not to put all of one's characters in one balls-out unit of Chosen or whatever. It encourages one to spread characters through many units which I think makes for a more interesting game.

The reason I _dislike_ Dwellers is that it's in the wrong Lore. No Lore should simultainiously have the best defencive AND offencive spells. I think we'd see a lot less moaning about Dwellers if it were in a lore like Fire or Death.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I just got annoyed with a friend of mine taking a master of sorcery HoT in a horror block and winning games through a lucky dweller's casting... so I sank to his level and took a Lv3 life wizard with the power scroll (pre-errata), he soon learnt why I was so annoyed by the spell when in 1 casting I killed his herald, changeling and about 15 horrors. Game was over and all I had was a couple of S10 hits on RnF models (it was only 1k).

As Uber spells go I have no issue with final transmutation, which is nasty as fook without being insta-win, infernal gateway (timeless classic) or even Okkam's which you don't know if you've got off until after you've charged (or if you aren't in combat give the opponent the choice of not charging). I do hate purple sun and dwellers- the first because it totally screws over a couple of armies while others are all but immune and the second because it is just too nasty. If life was only defensive (which it should be) and dwellers was a death spell then I would be a little less annoyed with it, but not much... but at least if it was in death you would have to sacrifice augments and long range damage to take it (and only soulblight is a really good hex). As the game stands I can see no reason for high level mages not to take either shadow or life... the others just don't enter into it.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

Tim/Steve said:


> I just got annoyed with a friend of mine taking a master of sorcery HoT in a horror block and winning games through a lucky dweller's casting...


That'd annoy anyone. But no one's ever accused Daemons of being fair. (Aso, that;s why god invented the Banner of the World Dragon.)




Tim/Steve said:


> so I sank to his level and took a Lv3 life wizard with the power scroll (pre-errata), he soon learnt why I was so annoyed by the spell when in 1 casting I killed his herald, changeling and about 15 horrors. Game was over and all I had was a couple of S10 hits on RnF models (it was only 1k).


Nerfing the Power Scroll was a fantastic idea. Again, it;s not the spell, its the way it can be abused with other elements of the army (HoT or Power Scroll f'rex).



Tim/Steve said:


> As Uber spells go I have no issue with final transmutation, which is nasty as fook without being insta-win,


Yeah, that's becauuse Metal is a very risky Lore to pick.

I'd bet my army that if FT were in Life and Dwellers were in Metal, the internet would be bitching about FT far more than Dwellers.


While I'm prepared to ammicably disagree with you in Dwellers 'in a vacuum' brokenness, it appears we both agree that a significant problem with 8th magic is just which spells are in what Lore, making two Lores must-have (and you bet I use Life and Shadow) and Fire and Metal almost worthless outside of novelty builds and 'I know I'm fighting Bretts tomorrow, where are my Lore of Metal cards'.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I quite enjoy taking the off metal mage... but I don't get the option much now I've got rid of my HE. Although everyone says its risky to take in standard games that's only really true for low level wizards. FT is pretty effective against everything, +1 to hit is always nice and adding a 5+ scaly skin turns almost any infantry into a pretty awesome unit. The one thing I can't understand is why transmutation of lead is a 12+... its a nice little hex but really isn't that powerful, especially when plague of rust is permanent and only a 7+
I think metal is a solid lore, but it certainly doesn't compete with shadow/life for sheer power... I've never seen more then a lv1-2 take fire, and then I thought it was a waste. Shame, because I always used to love the old lore of fire: loved putting hte burning head through both handlers of a hydra and causing it to take Ld6 panic/monster reaction tests turn 1. Best result was making 2 run off the board turn 1. LMAO  But now fire is crap, you can't hit the handlers anyway and even if you could the hits would go to the hydra... dammit :cray:


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

Fire hld e, it should be artillary for armies that don't have artillary. The core book even claims that it is the very Lore for people who see their wizard as an artillary peice.

If Burning Head was like a real cannon, Fireball was higher STR and/or more dice and so on, it'd be a solid Lore, but it's not.

Metal's buffs and debuffs don't do anything I can't do better with Life or Shadow, and the damage spells are, as I say, only good if you know you're fighting something with tough armour.


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