# Necrons In CC.......?



## Brian007 (Aug 8, 2008)

So I have been looking over the new Necron codex and they have a lot of real cool ideas for CC but with everything at I2 I can not see how they could win a fight.

So if anyone could give me an idea on how to use the Necrons in CC that would be great. As of right now I am looking at them as a sit back and shoot army but most of their range is 24 so that can't be the best idea.

How do you get by the I2 with them to be able to fight and win in CC?

Thanks in advance.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Take Zahndrekh, give your lychguard counter attack and let enemies without grenades charge you. Necrons cc units should only be used against enemy units that are not designed for close combat, or units that have either low intiative attacks or attacks that do not ignore armour.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

With I2 there's really on point in 5th edition. Either you get killed before you strike, or you strike, lose anyway, and get swept easily.

Units can beat some weaker foes, like Tau, or with a Warscythe attached can cut Dreadnoughts up easily enough, but Necrons shouldn't have problems shooting them down anyway.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

:laugh: Necs in CC... whew that was a good one. Almost as funny as Tau in CC.


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

just yesterday I played some of my new necron units testing them out in CC (against orks) what I figured out is that it all depends on who your facing. 

If your facing mobs armies your best bet it to have lots of warriors and like mentioned about give them counter-attack, sure your still hitting on init 2 but smaller, better units will be mashed up, plus you can get a few really good shots off before they assault you if you have a phearon lord attached.

Against high init foes, you can't get enough of wraiths with whip coils, so far I reckon are the best CC unit we have, but I learned that you *must* give them all whip coils, to drop the enemy to Init 1 and let your rending weapons do the work.

as for lychguard due to their points cost are best used against units that cost equal to them, such as termies and what not (especially powerfist termies cause then you actually get to strike first) 

I haven't tried out Preatorians yet, but looking at them on paper for their points cost are *really* not worth it if they were dropped to half their points cost then yeah but anyway.

The general golden-rule for Necrons at the moment is to hit the enemy with Gauss and Teslas, and try and cut down the amount of attacks the enemy will have against you in CC, otherwise you'll get swept down very quickly.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

CC heavy necrons are decent not the best but decent army list.

Keys to the tactic are to take the following on mass.
-Lords with mind swarm scerabs.
-Massed wraiths with most having whip coils.
-Spyders killing 9 T6 MC's with a 3+ armor save tends to take a long time.
-And scerabs (With all those spyders a unit of 3 can become a unit of 12+ in no time)

However even with these options you will have to use special wargear and fast units to weaken the stuff that is really hard to kill, or that has a hug amount of attacks.

-


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> CC heavy necrons are decent not the best but decent army list.
> 
> Keys to the tactic are to take the following on mass.
> -Lords with mind swarm scerabs.
> ...


Mostly this :thank_you:

I love the new Necrons in CC. Pretty much any unit can have 2-3 models with Mindshackle Scarabs, and there are lots of weapons that ignore armour, or are power weapons, or have rending. Necrons are also very durable with a good T and armour save, and high Ld.

Necrons are not the pushover in CC that they used to be.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Also crons are now a army that loves people that can roll dice like lady luck is french kissing them. I had a lowly 15 man warrior squad beat down 5GK terminators just because I kept bringing back the 2-4 models he killed a turn while making my LD checks at 7-8.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Problem as well, of course, is that close combat is inherently inferior to shooting, even for units that are supposedly good at it.

Apart from the obvious (losing models in your own turn, range, immobility etc) it's simply more difficult to hit things in combat, and CCWs not having an AP means that lightly armoured troops massively improve their survivability. 

Naturally, the medium armour found on Necron Warriors is better in combat than against the likes of Manticores, Heavy Bolters, Autocannons and Heavy Flamers - but since it robs them of their strength (shooting) they are hurt a lot more than the average.


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## Igniskhin (May 19, 2011)

I have 3 stories involving successful newcron CC

Lychguard covering the left flank on a (board edge to the right) agienst nids, the gaunts and warriors smashed agienst them like a gentle wave killing zero lychguard and with gaunts being fearless typicaly resulted in 10-20 dead per assault phase.

13 necron warriors w/ warscyth/orb lord winning a 3 turn assault with termies thanks to having 2 ghost arks near by dumping fresh warriros into the fight and alot of low leadership checks (I needed a 4 one round... got double 1s)

wraiths forcing all BTB contact to I1, its just dirty, and I love it.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Igniskhin said:


> wraiths forcing all BTB contact to I1, its just dirty, and I love it.


Unless they have force halberds or furious charge or some other initiative bonus from wargear.


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## Skari (Dec 20, 2011)

Necrons have some really good options for H2H, lych guard, pretorians, wraiths and scarabs.


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## Killystar Gul Dakka (Mar 20, 2011)

I've recently had mild to moderate success using Wraith in a unit with a Destroyer Lord and warscythe. Very mobile, very durable...very expensive. With 6 Wraith (3 Whip Coils) in the unit and the Lord, youre looking at 365pts.

Granted I used this unit flanked by x2 Scarab bases of 6


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## infernalcaretaker (Nov 12, 2008)

To be honest i think every army needs some sort of counter attack unit/which is good in combat to get you out of the muck when the inevitable happens - in the current edition, it is my experience that you WILL end up in combat during the game, and having a unit that can either rescue a unit tied up, or stop that unit getting there, is a very good thing to have.

2 things of note - 

Wraiths - Hell Yes! i tend to run 50% of the unit with 'coils as they are a prime target for the enemy (EVERYONE i have used them against so far fears them) and having a bullet catcher (or three!) is useful - bear in mind that only models in BtB are reduced to I1, so pick your targets carefully, try not to hit dedicated assault units full of power weapons, or full mobs of Boyz...

Illuminor Szeras - 100pt 'filler' HQ, but he gives you a free buff to a unit (BS, S or T) and has Gaze of Flame... Shift those T5 Immortals off that objective now...


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Heh, charging mobs of Boyz with Wraiths would be entertaining... be something of a bloodbath really.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

In the old codex I definitely avoided CC at all cost.

In the new codex I actively look for it.

Only the most insanely over-tooled enemy assault units give me any bother now. Warriors are back in favour, because they won't auto-lose you the game and you can upgrade them nicely. There are a lot of ranged weapons that ignore their armour, but not so many in CC.

At the moment one of my favourite tactics is sending a solo Overlord on a barge to take on the whole enemy army on his own. He usually lasts the game out and makes back double his point investment.

If you compare the CC ability average across the Necron codex with the rest of 40k you'll find that they are much stronger than most codices (or codexes, as GW insist upon).


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Darklove, most Codexes are Marines. I don't understand how you can claim Necrons' average CC ability is better than Marines', whatever variety.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

infernalcaretaker said:


> try not to hit dedicated assault units full of power weapons


Ignoring the fact that they are by design made to fight units with power weapons.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> Darklove, most Codexes are Marines. I don't understand how you can claim Necrons' average CC ability is better than Marines', whatever variety.


True, but they are hardly weaker as basic marines suck at CC anyways. However basic necrons do have the edge over vanilla marines in that they also get back up meaning they can grind down tactical marines. After all basic marines will only inflict 1-2 wounds a turn on marine stats, and the basic warriors will kill 1 marine a turn, meaning with reanimation basic warriors are better in CC then marines despite having lower armor.

So yes a strong claim can be made for why necrons are better the basic marines. Blood angels and SW not so much, but they are assault armies. Fact is with marine stats low I rarely makes a difference (Most things you would have to worry about either have 3A each or are I5-10. So necrons are basically space marines with low I and high resilience (Not for CR though). I really don't know when people started considering WS4 T4 S4 A1 with a 3-4+/4-5+ weak in CC? I guess all the matt ward codexes have spoilt us.

However despite this necrons are a lot better at dealing out pain and taking it at range then in CC as a 5+-4+ built in FNP (It happens after they shoot so only a wipe will stop it, but unlike FNP there is no other way to stop it) against shooting a necron will make 35-50% of all the enemies shooting useless. A number that gets worse consider armor saves.

So it kinda breaks down like this.

CC Necrons=Vanilla marines
CC Resilience Necrons>Vanilla marines
Raged Resilience Necrons>>Vanilla marines.

To bad Vanilla marines are now considered a weak CC army, with mediocre shooting.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

I played against a typical DEldar army this evening and the Necron Warrior, supported by a Lord or Overlord, is a really solid model in CC.

Mindshackle and the relatively high strength and toughness of Necrons make them a real threat.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Yah I had a similar experience against a buch of venom spam list at a local tournament. They spent the first 2 turn failing to hit my force with 50%+ of their force. Then when they finally got to shoot I ignored 70% of all the wounds they caused. The weird part was when his archion and attached incubi got into a assault with 15 warriors and a tomb spyder. First round of combat he drops 4 warriors and I kill two Incubi. Then the 3 warriors got up, then he killed another three and I killed 2 more incubi. Needless to say the last 2 turn were spent by my 9 warriors and spyder trying to get through a 2+ inv save (Lucky the wound that got through was from the tomb spyder). It seems what gives Necrons the edge against DE is the fact that shooting does very little against a tolled up necron list (3+ to hit, 4+ to wound, 3-4+ armor, 4-5+ get back up, mean even against warriors with no orb it takes 100 venom cannon shots to kill 11 warriors on average, now CC not so much, but still a lucky roll will see you win the day)

Advanced tip for necron players.
-Always multi charge or support a combat when possible. Because the enemy can't sweeping advance a unit if its still locked in combat with another unit. Last game this saved Imotekhs life as he ran in to support a combat and failed his LD at the end of the round.

Realization: Necrons are more about luck then any other army in the game. For with no real way to reliably negate reanimation protocols a lucky roll can negate any weapon in the game.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Fuck, I just lost a full essay.

Dammit.

TL;CBA typing again - 
4/4 is the REAL baseline average, as Marines are more popular than all else put together, so Necs don't have 'high' stats, merely 'better than most Xenos'.

DE are actually not good in combat except against things you expect them to beat up (IG, Tau, Guardians etc) with the obvious exception of their true CC units...

...Which are still inferior to arguably the best one in the game, Vanilla THSS. Bike Command Squads also rawk in CC, meaning that SMs aren't truly weak in CC...

...it's just that CC is inferior mechanically, so investing more than a small proportion of points into it is often foolish.

Vanilla Marines are considered weak by most of the internet - but most of the internet is retarded. [Colloquialism, ofc] Their shooting is absolutely fine, better than many.

All this said, Necrons need to be in fairly large units in order to tarpit effectively, and to eventually win thanks largely to RP. If this is the case, your number of Scoring nits is limited, due to being an army that struggles to field as many units as most other 5e books - so it carries with it its own drawbacks and problems.

I haven't used the Newcrons yet, but I feel my initial feeling that generally 5-8 man units would suffice for what I want to do (maximise shooting, since BS4 truly IS above average*) and so I'm not feeling the utility of large units outstrips the problems.



* - In this case, as it isn't contingent on other factors, it's being judged purely on it's own merit, as BS is never compared to any other stat to determine usefulness. In contrast, S and T require context. With most ranged basic weaponry wounding T4 on 4+, whether Shuriken, Shoota, Bolter or Splinter, it's average as it's a 50% rate. With BS4, you hit better than half the time, so it's above that median.


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## KarnalBloodfist (Jan 30, 2010)

I'm just getting back into 40K, so, take what I'm saying here w/ a grain of salt...



infernalcaretaker said:


> Wraiths - Hell Yes! i tend to run 50% of the unit with 'coils as they are a prime target for the enemy (EVERYONE i have used them against so far fears them) and having a bullet catcher (or three!) is useful - bear in mind that only models in BtB are reduced to I1, so pick your targets carefully, try not to hit dedicated assault units full of power weapons, or full mobs of Boyz...


Actually, I find that Wraiths do well to take on units w/ lots of power weapons as they have the 3++ all the time. And unless I completely missed something - now that reanimation protocols are no longer affected by power weapons like WBB used to be, attaching over/lords to units w/ a res orb can prove to be a massive boon vs lots of power weapons. That is unless you tend to roll like I do - lots of low numbers for protocols. :ireful2:

I just tried out the whole wraith w/ D-lord thing a week ago. They took out a DSing unit of Black Templar termies. Granted, it took a bit as I couldn't get a rending wound to save my metallic backside, but it only took me 3 rounds of combat to take out 6 termies using a D-lord w/ RO and scarabs and 2 wraiths w/ WCs (it would have been 3 wraiths but I lost one to a full barrage of fire from a Predator).

It almost seems that scarabs are a must as well. Making someone roll a 3d6 Ld test is brutal against average/low Ld targets. My BT opponent didn't pass a single Ld test in any of the combats that involved the scarabs. I will have to admit, though, that we were playing a smaller scale game so there wasn't a lot of high Ld floating around (aside from my universal Ld 10! k: ) The scarabs are great vs lots of power weapons/fists like termies. They may find reduced usefulness against a larger unit that has more basic weaponry and only 1 or 2 power weapons/fists as the target of the scarabs is random. But, still, you're getting the extra attacks and have the chance of making your opponent kill his own troops.


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## Icarsun (Dec 14, 2011)

Wraiths don't have reanimation protocols.

That said, I always keep a small scarab farm for counter charge purposes. They're a cheap unit (usually 45-60pts) and when backed up by a Spyder they generally perform to a satisfactory level. 

I've yet to try Wraiths because I don't have any suitable models yet (and I've got four other things I want to buy before I buy Tomb King Snake things for the conversion) and I've seen Lychguard work great simply as a fear factor.


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

I just played a dumb Black Templars list against my friend's new dumb Necron list last weekend.

Anyways, I had 3 squads of Sword Brethren Spehss Mahreens and he had 3 squads of the warscythe wielding dudes behind 3 squads of the retarded shield Necrons.

So I cut down the Shield (Lychguard?) Crons but then the groups behind them charged me and well....all 3 of my Sword Brethren squads were wiped out in one round of combat so I'm not taking Necron CC lightly anymore....

THANK YOU VERY MUCH MATT WARD


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

So...three squads of Warscythe-wielders beat a bunch of guys with CCWs and Bolt Pistols? When THEY charged? Say it ain't so...


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

I spent several hour yesterday trying to find a single model that can reliably beat a Necron Overlord in CC 1vs1. Couldn't find one, and there were quite a few of us trying.

Phoenix Lords, Wraith Lords, Lilith, Dante, Calgar, Celestine... nothing beat the Overlord even with about a dozen attempts each. Fun trying though


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

With or without all the wargear? Because there is a huge number of models that can beat just a naked necron overlord.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Yeah, that really depends on how much wargear you five him darklove. Without clarification, it's a meaningless statement.

Also, as I said - largely irrelevant - you give me as many points of shooting as you've spent on upgrades etc, and I've no doubt I'd send him home to the Tomb in no time.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> Yeah, that really depends on how much wargear you five him darklove. Without clarification, it's a meaningless statement.
> 
> Also, as I said - largely irrelevant - you give me as many points of shooting as you've spent on upgrades etc, and I've no doubt I'd send him home to the Tomb in no time.


We gave the Overlord a Warscythe and all his wargear. To be honest, he wouldn't have needed all of it to be just as murderous, but we were checking out his full potential.

@ TKE: Your claim of irrelevance is irrelevant: any of the expensive HQ units from any codex can be shot to death by an equivalent value of cheaper shooty units. The fact remains that Necrons can more than hold their own in CC, and are by no means the push-over many people seem to think they are.

Anyone with the 'Hey, I'm facing Necrons so I'll assault them for the easy/auto-win!' approach is in for a rude awakening.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Well, it's not irrelevant to MY point, which is that CC is inferior to shooting - and that points, therefore, invested heavily into it are all-but-wasted.

I'd actually go so far, in the case of Necrons, to say that things are so expensive that most Necron lists WOULD be able to be charged with relative impunity.

Though if anyone is stupid enough to fail to recognise the potential threat of a Warscythe-wielder and charge them with something that isn't a real CC unit, they deserve what they get.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I think necron combat could be pretty darn nasty. I'm already using a pretty combat-solid army with a D-lord (+ mindshackle scarabs) with 4 wraith backed up by 2 spyders and 5+ scarabs but I've also been toying with an 'ard boyz plan.

Not heard many people enjoying the new rules for flayed ones, with so many people moaning about their drop in initiative, armour save and people saying they are just too rubbish to work... but here's what I'm thiking:
'Ard Boyz are one of the scariest units in the game, but for +3pts a model you get a flayed one with permanent S4, Ld 10 (and no fearless), a 5+ reanimation chance and most importantly: infiltrate.

20 flayed ones appearing on your flank after you have deployed your army (or outflanking) would be horrible and its not even all that expensive. If they could take something the equivalent of a PK nob then they would be horribly broken... would love to see a 1500pt necron army with 60 flayed ones in there  "Terrifying" would hardly cover it- an infiltrating combat horde with excellent fire support...


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

T/S - I like you. But when you say things like "Ard boyz are one of the scariest units in the game" I get scared. I know that my sarcasmometer should be doing overtime, but I'm worried you're serious.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Flayed ones aren't bad, but for 55$ for 5 models no one in their right Fu&^ing mind is going to use them, since they are best used in large ass units of 15-20. After all Flayed ones are good cheap assault troops with 4 stregth 4 WS 4 attacks on the charge for 15 points no one should be complaining about them regardless of low Int, but they are however A)Not troops, B) retardedly expensive money wise, and C) Competing with other elite specialists.

In fact if the models were the same cost as immortals then I may just accumulate 20 of them over time, but they aren't so I won't.


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## Day2Dan (Sep 30, 2011)

After playing with the necrons for the past few months, I've noticed one of their greatest strengths is their ability to tarpit anything not completely built for CC (and sometimes even things that are) for turns on end even with basic warriors. Based on this, my initial thoughts on Flayed Ones - who are effectively warriors that exchange guns for more CC attacks and better deployment options - have changed from "worthless" to "effective". Outflanking them or deep striking them with Imotekh on your side (for the 6" no scatter on a random unit) lets you very quickly force an opposing unit into combat with them when they had likely planned on getting into assault with your Immortals/Deathmarks/whatever to halt their fire. Their ability to tarpit just as well as Warriors but with more attacks means, despite their I2, they will much more likely win combat, albeit maybe over a couple of turns. One dead enemy unit + 1/2 extra turns of shooting from your Immortals/Deathmarks is certainly worth 130 points (10 is probably the minimum to run).

Just better hope those bloodswarm nanoscarabs favor you when they pick their target, haha. Outflanking is still a great option though. I have 8 more Flayed ones (old metal models - I think they look better) to paint and I'm excited to start playing around with them.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

20 Flayed ones now costs 200+ dollars Canadian. Move over blood dragons there is a new unit on the retardedly overpriced scene.


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## Day2Dan (Sep 30, 2011)

LukeValantine said:


> 20 Flayed ones now costs 200+ dollars Canadian. Move over blood dragons there is a new unit on the retardedly overpriced scene.


Metal ones are much more reasonably priced if you find them on a certain auction site.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Using 20 is solid, using 40 is better, using 60 makes you a cheesy mofo with a big smile on your face.

If they were plastic and reasonably priced I think you would see a lot of them, but as they are they are just not worth it money wise, rules wise I think they're solid.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Good units generally have easy alternatives, you see good units converted to make them more cost effective, especially in a non-gw run tournie environment. The fact that they are elites is a problem with them, however the Flayed One's main defect is the supremely low initiative. If they were normal I4 i could see them being used a lot, because 4 attacks on the charge is nothing to sneeze at, however as they are their numbers are sufficiently cut down before they can strike, with a poor save and average toughness. Wraiths are the best CC units in the book by a mile, thanks to their extra wound and built in storm shield.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I would go so far as to say that Wraiths were the only GOOD CC unit in the Codex, with Scarabs and Flayed Ones both firmly in the 'adequate' category.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

TheKingElessar said:


> I would go so far as to say that Wraiths were the only GOOD CC unit in the Codex, with Scarabs and Flayed Ones both firmly in the 'adequate' category.


I'd go as far as to say barge overlords are awesome in cc (I'm including the sweep in that), wraiths are sweet as, scarabs have so many attacks they walk over MSU units and flayed ones are ok at best.

The notion that shooting is much better than combat is a bit outdated I feel. If dealing with msu tanks it's still probably true (for imperial armies anyway), but when dealing with anything on foot cc is often more decisive. Multi charging, the ability to kill in both player turns, sweeping advance and units that are all but immune to some armies shooting mean you generally need a plan B (and C).

As for DE assault- large helion packs are proper scary and beast packs are tied with stealers for my personal 'nastiest cc army in the game' award.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I don't consider the Sweep a CC attack, as the rules don't either.

As a result, I don't consider them awesome as they must disembark to engage.

BS > WS because it doesn't matter how good the opponent is, and hitting on 2+ is possible for other things than Kharn.


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