# Tau and the Webway



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

What do you think of the implications of the tau managing ti infiltrate or harness the Webway? 

Do you think this could be a galaxy changing development or the last nail in their impending coffin? 

How do you suppose the eldar would take the intrusion?


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Well given the one thing that has limited the Tau expansion is their poor warp jump ability I'd think that getting access to the Webway will make a massive difference to their ability to expand.

The Imperium might find itself in more or less in another civil war as planets join the greater good to escape the fascist yolk of the Imperium.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Well given the one thing that has limited the Tau expansion is their poor warp jump ability I'd think that getting access to the Webway will make a massive difference to their ability to expand.
> 
> The Imperium might find itself in more or less in another civil war as planets join the greater good to escape the fascist yolk of the Imperium.


The Tau's lack of efficient warp travel is not the only thing which limits the Tau's expansion. There's also the matter of the Imperium being in the way. It's one thing for the Tau to take some far flung, insignificant border worlds; it's quite another for them to make a major incursion into Imperial space. 

The Tau benefit locally from being a big fish in a small pond but on a Segmentum Scale the Imperium would crush them. The Imeprium responds to threat in order of priority, a major incursion by the Tau would ratchet them up the list. 

I also very much doubt vast swathes of the Imperium would join the Tau. Xenophobia has been a part of Imperial history for 10,000 years. I don't see a couple 'good' interactions changing that. The Tau attract the discontented, disconnected worlds, not those which are hubs of Imperial activity and authority. 

You can't generalize and say everyone hates living under the Imperium. There is no standard Imperial rule. each world governs its own affairs in its own manners. You have Utopian paradises alongside despotic hellholes and everything in between. 

Regarding the op however.

Could the Tau even access the Webway? They have far less knowledge of it and other psychic phenomenon than the Imperium does and the Imperium can't access it. The only other beings who have are the Necrons with the aid of what amount to gods. The Tau are nowhere near that level of technology (they don't even surpass the Imperium).


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Rems said:


> Could the Tau even access the Webway? They have far less knowledge of it and other psychic phenomenon than the Imperium does and the Imperium can't access it. The only other beings who have are the Necrons with the aid of what amount to gods. The Tau are nowhere near that level of technology (they don't even surpass the Imperium).


What the tau have is a determination and open minded approach to new things. Granted the Imperium is still more advance, however they are also largely ignorant of the webway's existence and even those that know consider it Heresy and techno sorcery. Only the Emperor came close to cracking it, and even he had to start somewhere right? 

I'm not claiming it's definitely possible, but I don't think it's something we can so easily rule out either. The necrons and dark eldar prove that having psykers is not required, all that is needed is an understanding. Given enough time and opportunity, I don't think it is unreasonable to speculate that the tau could crack this labyrinth as well. 

Another question worth considering is if they do, how will they contend with the myriad of threats already inside? :wink:


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> What the tau have is a determination and open minded approach to new things. Granted the Imperium is still more advance, however they are also largely ignorant of the webway's existence and even those that know consider it Heresy and techno sorcery. Only the Emperor came close to cracking it, and even he had to start somewhere right?
> 
> I'm not claiming it's definitely possible, but I don't think it's something we can so easily rule out either. The necrons and dark eldar prove that having psykers is not required, all that is needed is an understanding. Given enough time and opportunity, I don't think it is unreasonable to speculate that the tau could crack this labyrinth as well.
> 
> Another question worth considering is if they do, how will they contend with the myriad of threats already inside? :wink:


Yes but the Dark Eldar had the advantage of already knowing how it works. They've always had access to it. The Necrons with the aid of the C'tan had mastery of physical space. In fact wasn't it only due to the C'tan that they were able to construct the Dolmen Gates to force their way in the first place? 

The Tau posses neither of those advantages and know near nothing about such warp/psychic based phenomena to boot. I just don't see them getting in.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Rems said:


> I just don't see them getting in.


Technobabble. It'll get them through one way or another. They'll create some device that works, one way or another.

If the plot so demands, anyway.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Rems said:


> Yes but the Dark Eldar had the advantage of already knowing how it works. They've always had access to it. The Necrons with the aid of the C'tan had mastery of physical space. In fact wasn't it only due to the C'tan that they were able to construct the Dolmen Gates to force their way in the first place?


The c'tan only showed them how, and only one of them apparently understood it. From this we can assume that the other c'tan either couldn't decipher the webway or had no interest in parting the knowledge for however long the war had dragged before this. Personally I find that unlikely, and put more stock in the theory that the one c'tan able to figure it out was forced to study and learn. It is stated that he had long desired to bring his infernal fire to that realm. 

My point here is that it can be deciphered and harnessed by races outside its creators. And the tau are one of the few races to have the right mindset and motive to do it.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> The c'tan only showed them how, and only one of them apparently understood it. From this we can assume that the other c'tan either couldn't decipher the webway or had no interest in parting the knowledge for however long the war had dragged before this. Personally I find that unlikely, and put more stock in the theory that the one c'tan able to figure it out was forced to study and learn. It is stated that he had long desired to bring his infernal fire to that realm.
> 
> My point here is that it can be deciphered and harnessed by races outside its creators. And the tau are one of the few races to have the right mindset and motive to do it.


My point is that it took a C'tan to do it. A veritable god with mastery over the material realm. That's what it takes to hack your way in. The Tau may have the correct, innovative attitude but lack the intelligence, skill or technology to make use of it.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Rems said:


> The Tau's lack of efficient warp travel is not the only thing which limits the Tau's expansion. There's also the matter of the Imperium being in the way. It's one thing for the Tau to take some far flung, insignificant border worlds; it's quite another for them to make a major incursion into Imperial space.
> 
> The Tau benefit locally from being a big fish in a small pond but on a Segmentum Scale the Imperium would crush them. The Imeprium responds to threat in order of priority, a major incursion by the Tau would ratchet them up the list.


Which is why the webway would make said incursion much easier being able to essentially "turn up" where ever they wished rather than have to plod along through a series of planetary conquests.



Rems said:


> I also very much doubt vast swathes of the Imperium would join the Tau. Xenophobia has been a part of Imperial history for 10,000 years. I don't see a couple 'good' interactions changing that. The Tau attract the discontented, disconnected worlds, not those which are hubs of Imperial activity and authority.


Which is why the Tau would stand a better chance at this than anyone else. Rather than boiling out of the webway with all guns blazing I see that they would be sending emissaries and trade delegations to treat with the planetary governors and gaining a foothold within the communities in that manner subtly over time making their place in Imperial society a vital one.



Rems said:


> You can't generalize and say everyone hates living under the Imperium. There is no standard Imperial rule. each world governs its own affairs in its own manners. You have Utopian paradises alongside despotic hellholes and everything in between.


Perhaps not but we CAN say that seemingly everyone likes living under the Tau. Start with the disaffected worlds and progress to the others in time. 



Rems said:


> Could the Tau even access the Webway? They have far less knowledge of it and other psychic phenomenon than the Imperium does and the Imperium can't access it. The only other beings who have are the Necrons with the aid of what amount to gods. The Tau are nowhere near that level of technology (they don't even surpass the Imperium).


If the Eldar race is to die out, to whom would they bequeath their legacy? An Imperialist race, vulnerable to the forces of chaos or an egalitarian society who is basically immune to the predations of the warp?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Rems said:


> stuff 1


The tau are able to make cheap fast biological limb/organ replacements. They are also able to mass produce safe plasma weapons, power (battle) armor(suits), terraform, better armor for it's grunts, and anti grav vheicles.. True overall the tau don't surpass the Imperium in tech. 

I'd be willing to bet if they survive for another 1000 years they will be be closer to eldar tech that Imperium.


Serpion5 said:


> Stuff 1


In Farseer the astropath was wondering how the eldar traveled and said that he had heard theories among other astropaths that maybe they had some kind of alternate travel method, but couldn't believe it was possible.



Magpie_Oz said:


> If the Eldar race is to die out, to whom would they bequeath their legacy? An Imperialist race, vulnerable to the forces of chaos or an egalitarian society who is basically immune to the predations of the warp?


I think the eldar would decide to take their tech with them...although that's not to say some MAY give some tech to others.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Im just wondering to what extent could the webway be considered safe after all the stuff that has happened in there, i mean you already have dark Eldar, entire sections cordoned off due to the malignant influence of the primordial annihilator.
so while im aware the webway is safer than warp travel, to what extent can we say itd be a game changer? bearing in mind its been invaded almost continuously by the warp, ahriman, the imperium and the Dark Eldar.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Personally I don't think the Tau gaining access to the webway would be as beneficial to them as it could be. The Tau already have very little understanding of the warp and its denizens, and could very easily blindly re-open the sealed sections of the webway through their own ignorance, opening it back up to the warp and causing more trouble.

Theres also the issue of navigation, since the webway is not always a straightforward ordeal. Finding your way around can be a rather difficult thing, and you might not end up where you want to be.

Would it help them travel farther? Quite possibly; however that could quite easily lend itself to more trouble for the Tau should they attempt to integrate more worlds. Two of the things the Tau have going for them are their location on the relative fringe of Imperial space, and their general ignorance of just how large the Imperium is. If they go further in, they could very easily believe that its going to be much the same, only to get crushed, with no warning sent back.

The Tau being in the webway could also make them a bigger target for corsairs and the Dark Eldar, now that they are on unfamiliar ground and all.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Which is why the webway would make said incursion much easier being able to essentially "turn up" where ever they wished rather than have to plod along through a series of planetary conquests.


They'd still draw more attention to themselves however. Imperial authorities in the know would start wondering why there are Tau turning up all over the galaxy. Having the webway doesn't alleviate the need for planetary conquest, which again would draw Imperial attention. 





> Which is why the Tau would stand a better chance at this than anyone else. Rather than boiling out of the webway with all guns blazing I see that they would be sending emissaries and trade delegations to treat with the planetary governors and gaining a foothold within the communities in that manner subtly over time making their place in Imperial society a vital one.


Except that only an incredibly small minority of worlds would accept these delegations. It's heresy to interact with xenos. If that world has any level of Imperial activity or authority no trade is going to happen. 





> Perhaps not but we CAN say that seemingly everyone likes living under the Tau. Start with the disaffected worlds and progress to the others in time.


Tell that to sterilized human colonists. 




> If the Eldar race is to die out, to whom would they bequeath their legacy? An Imperialist race, vulnerable to the forces of chaos or an egalitarian society who is basically immune to the predations of the warp?


They're not going to be bequeathing anything to anyone. They consider the lesser races to be more akin to beasts than sentient beings. Besides the Tau fit the description of imperialist just as well as the Imperium. I'd hardly call their society egalitarian; a caste system presupposes some level of inequality. There's a definite hierarchy in Tau society. 

Tau also are not immune to the predations of the warp. Daemons can still attack them, psychic powers still affect them. They simply have a lower register in the warp, they're not a race of blanks.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

The only plausible way the Tau could gain access to the network would be by being in control of an established, working, gateway. Whilst simultaneously hoping the Eldar don't/can't seal of that particular tunnel and that it is stable enough to prevent any daemonic incursions. 

Being in control of a single (or even a handful) of gateways wouldn't be sufficient to gain access to the remainder of the webway, especially to a race that has no experience with, or knowledge of, the labyrinth. The Dark Kin (and to a lesser extent the Craftworld and Exodite Eldar, as well as the daemonic legions and other natural/warp predators known to inhabit the network) would pose a gargantuan obstacle to any Tau intrusion, especially given Vect's previously known exploits and mastery of the webway.

Even if, hypothetically, the Tau Empire were able to gain access and/or dominance of the labyrinth I would question how useful it would actually be. Firstly, it would open up the Empire on the galactic stage and therefore multiply it's enemies a thousand-fold. The Eldar utilise it mainly as corsairs and pirates and don't maintain unified realms via it, therefore it remains highly valuable. But going up against the galactic heavy-weights (notably the Imperium) on a large-scale would probably only end badly for the Tau. Not only that, but the webway itself is slowly falling into disrepair and Chaos, with only the Harlequins being in command of a complete map (IIRC). The Tau also would not be able to replicate the psychic technology required to repair/rebuilt it properly (especially considering the Eldar and the Emperor couldn't/can't). Ultimately, the webway is not the answer to the Tau's long-term goal of unifying the galaxy under the banner of the Greater Good, I think it would only provide more problems and could end up being catastrophic for the young civilisation.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

How or If the Tau access the Webway is irrelevant, the proposal of the OP is that they have done so. hat is the premise from which we have to start.

I am firmly of the opinion that the Tau would be able to very successfully infiltrate Imperial Society through fair means and foul. Despite Chaos being heresy there are still plenty of planets that fall to it, so to can Xenos permeate and cajole planets to join them.

Being Battle Brothers with Space Marines now shows a definite softening of the hard line towards them from the Imperium.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> How or If the Tau access the Webway is irrelevant, the proposal of the OP is that they have done so. hat is the premise from which we have to start.


So we're just brushing aside the fact they're highly unlikely to ever get in? Alright, then see Cote's answer. I agree with him that even if they could get in it would be to their detriment. If whatever lurked in there didn't ruin their day the Eldar or Imperium would when they'd discover the Tau using it. 



> I am firmly of the opinion that the Tau would be able to very successfully infiltrate Imperial Society through fair means and foul. Despite Chaos being heresy there are still plenty of planets that fall to it, so to can Xenos permeate and cajole planets to join them.


Chaos has the advantage of 1) being recognizable and familiar; it's introduced to an individual by those he knows. 2) being 'magic'. Chaos can warp and twist the mind, it attacks people's souls. It's the most persuasive, insidious force in the galaxy. Xenos diplomats (which would 9 times out of 10 be blown out of the sky on principle) can't compare. 

Now i'm not overly familiar with the details of Tau fluff but have there actually been any Imperial planets which have wholeheartedly joined the Tau of their own volition? There are plenty the tau have conquered or issued ultimatums to but i'm unaware of any outright defecting to the Tau. 



> Being Battle Brothers with Space Marines now shows a definite softening of the hard line towards them from the Imperium.


I wouldn't base such a significant policy shift on a rule mechanic designed for game balance. There's a lot on that table which doesn't make sense. The game's an abstraction informed by fluff, not the other way around. 

There's no evidence of the Astarte's xenophobia lessening. That's not to say they that some chapters can't be pragmatic in specific situations but there's certainly been no softer policy in place. The Imperium was founded on the assumption of human superiority. It's the Astartes holy mission to kill the alien.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Rems said:


> So we're just brushing aside the fact they're highly unlikely to ever get in?


Yes, yes we are.

The question isn't how would they gain access and what would happen, its what would happen if they somehow did gain access.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Rems said:


> Chaos has the advantage of 1) being recognizable and familiar; it's introduced to an individual by those he knows. 2) being 'magic'. Chaos can warp and twist the mind, it attacks people's souls. It's the most persuasive, insidious force in the galaxy. Xenos diplomats (which would 9 times out of 10 be blown out of the sky on principle) can't compare.


The tau offer 1: A longer life 2: possibility of advancement 3: They 'Care' 4: Kick ass gear that's better than that of the IG grunts 5: 3 meals a day 6: Free transfer if requested


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

locustgate said:


> The tau offer 1: A longer life 2: possibility of advancement 3: They 'Care' 4: Kick ass gear that's better than that of the IG grunts 5: 3 meals a day 6: Free transfer if requested


It doesn't matter what they offer as it all comes from am alien face. Imperial citizens have been conditioned to hate and fear xenos for the past 10,000 years. It's a central tenant in their religion. If the Tau came proselytizing to a word with any significant level of Imperial presence they'd would be blown out of the sky. 

Besides option 1, 2 and 5 are entirely dependent on what world you're on. There are democracies and meritocratic societies in the Imperium. 3's not true. Non tau are second class citizens and the Tau are just as imperialist as the Imperium is. Note that you're not given a choice about joining the empire, just the way in which you're incorporated.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Rems said:


> It doesn't matter what they offer as it all comes from am alien face. Imperial citizens have been conditioned to hate and fear xenos for the past 10,000 years. It's a central tenant in their religion. If the Tau came proselytizing to a word with any significant level of Imperial presence they'd would be blown out of the sky.
> 
> Besides option 1, 2 and 5 are entirely dependent on what world you're on. There are democracies and meritocratic societies in the Imperium. 3's not true. Non tau are second class citizens and the Tau are just as imperialist as the Imperium is. Note that you're not given a choice about joining the empire, just the way in which you're incorporated.


1: The average Imp citizen life span is 50 in hive worlds, thread here discussing life in the imp, can range from 50-70 in ag worlds. The most common cause of death for Workers in the tau empire is old age vs an accident in the Imp.

2: In the Imp if you are a worker you are going to die a worker, if your really lucky your going to die a worker with a compliment on your record. In the Tau Empire there's a chance you're going to die a foreman or if you show your really good you may even run a factory. Firecaste.

3: notice the (')s They say you're a citizen but atleast you won't be be shot just because the local Governor decided he wanted to have some fun 'hunting' or some local noble's son wanted to see what it was like to live like a ganger, (Ravenor, Lord of the Night, Scourge the Heretic, Eisenhorn, Firecaste, Fire Warrior, Shadowsun). 

5: True but the entire tau empire can be argued to be a meritocracy, not perfect. While the Imp is.....theocratic fascism?


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

locustgate said:


> 1: The average Imp citizen life span is 50 in hive worlds, thread here discussing life in the imp, can range from 50-70 in ag worlds. The most common cause of death for Workers in the tau empire is old age vs an accident in the Imp.
> 
> 2: In the Imp if you are a worker you are going to die a worker, if your really lucky your going to die a worker with a compliment on your record. In the Tau Empire there's a chance you're going to die a foreman or if you show your really good you may even run a factory. Firecaste.
> 
> ...


That's just the thing, there is no 'average Imperial citizen'. The Imperium is an empire of a million worlds and every one of the worlds is different. They each have different social, economic and political conditions. 

You have your hell hole factory worlds where you're worked to death but you also have earth like civilized worlds where workers have rights and safety measures and so on. 

Some Imperial worlds are socially stratified, you're born a menial you'll die one. Others have mobile societies or are democratic. The Imperium is just too big and varies too much for such broad generalizations. There's no central imperial policy that workers must be worked to death and live horrible lives. There's no Imperial policy where all worlds must have despotic regimes. The Imperium doesn't care how individual planets are run as long as they worship the emperor in some form, tithes are paid and psychers handed over. 

I'd be hesitant to call the Tau Empire a meritocracy. Having a caste system somewhat precludes that. You're a member of the Earth Caste you will remain a member of the Earth Caste and you will only marry another Earth Caste. You will not advance to a position of politcal leadership as that is the sole domain of the Ethereal Caste. You will unconditionally obey the decrees of the Ethereal Caste. 

Have any sources for those life spans? Hard facts like that need to be backed up.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Rems said:


> That's just the thing, there is no 'average Imperial citizen'. The Imperium is an empire of a million worlds and every one of the worlds is different. They each have different social, economic and political conditions.
> 
> You have your hell hole factory worlds where you're worked to death but you also have earth like civilized worlds where workers have rights and safety measures and so on.
> 
> ...


The majority of fluff is not on your side when it comes to examples of 'good' Imperial planets. Please name one book, be it codex, expansion, or novel where the majority isn't oppressed. 

True the Aun are the majority ruler, but A fire commander can order around a Earth Caste worker, a water caste diplomat can order around a fire warrior etc. It doesn't matter what caste you are in if you out rank the person you can give them orders. True it is most common for people not to marry or mate out of your caste but you will not be punished if they do, as for what will happen to the kids I have no clue. (Fire Caste Fire Warrior Shadowsun)


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

locustgate said:


> 1: The average Imp citizen life span is 50 in hive worlds, thread here discussing life in the imp, can range from 50-70 in ag worlds. The most common cause of death for Workers in the tau empire is old age vs an accident in the Imp.
> 
> 2: In the Imp if you are a worker you are going to die a worker, if your really lucky your going to die a worker with a compliment on your record. In the Tau Empire there's a chance you're going to die a foreman or if you show your really good you may even run a factory. Firecaste.
> 
> ...


Humans in the tau will still be second rate citizens. They will never be allowed to pilot battlesuits or do anything more than fire warrior duties.

If you're a good solider in the imperium you have a chance of moving up. Or even becoming an inquistorial henchman.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

locustgate said:


> The majority of fluff is not on your side when it comes to examples of 'good' Imperial planets. Please name one book, be it codex, expansion, or novel where the majority isn't oppressed.
> 
> True the Aun are the majority ruler, but A fire commander can order around a Earth Caste worker, a water caste diplomat can order around a fire warrior etc. It doesn't matter what caste you are in if you out rank the person you can give them orders. True it is most common for people not to marry or mate out of your caste but you will not be punished if they do, as for what will happen to the kids I have no clue. (Fire Caste Fire Warrior Shadowsun)


No, cross-caste relations are strictly forbidden. Check the codex. (I don't have it on hand and can't provide a direct page quote). What's your point about higher ranked Tau being able to order about lower ranked ones? I said that the Ethereal Caste maintains an absolute dominance over political leadership and are unconditionally obeyed. My point was that an Earth Caste worker for example can't become say, a politician, and have a say in the Empire foreign policy. He can advance within his caste yes but is limited to the roles alloted to his caste. That's not meritocratic. 

Good Imperial Planets? 

The Ultramar System, Pavonis, the worlds in the Ravenor and Eisenhorn books, Taris Ultra, the one in _Double Eagle_, those once part of 'the 500 worlds of Ultramar'. The 3rd ed rulebook has a whole category of 'civilized planets'. The 5th ed one states there's a massive variety, each with their own culture, level of advancement etc. 

That's just off the top of my head. An exhaustive search would likely yield more.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Shadowsun shows some Imperial citizens getting on just fine with the Tau, indeed remarking on and being grateful for their compassion.

Pretty sure Reaper that, given the option, your average Joe in the Imperium will trade a violent death by any one of a number of different means for a long life as a "second class citizen" in a society where they are cared for.

"A Sanctuary of Wyrms" sees a Deathwatch Iron Hand team up with a Tau to fight a greater evil, without summarily executing her.

If that is possible, anything is !


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Rems said:


> No, cross-caste relations are strictly forbidden. Check the codex. (I don't have it on hand and can't provide a direct page quote). What's your point about higher ranked Tau being able to order about lower ranked ones? I said that the Ethereal Caste maintains an absolute dominance over political leadership and are unconditionally obeyed. My point was that an Earth Caste worker for example can't become say, a politician, and have a say in the Empire foreign policy. He can advance within his caste yes but is limited to the roles alloted to his caste. That's not meritocratic.


Page 7
"Ethereal outlawed breeding out of caste"

Ok, however in Shadowsun she is given special permission to breed with anyone she chooses, she mentions the possibility of selecting someone from a different caste but prefers a fire caste memeber.

Fire Warrior, Fire Commander mentions he is very tempted to 'go out of caste' for the water caste representative. 

It sounds less like they outlawed and more like it's discouraged ,i.e. jay walking.

Like I mentioned before who ever is the highest rank is in charge, fire warrior the commander is in charge when 

the admiral dies and the ethereal is kidnapped again
. Even when the ethereal is present he more just stood back and let others do what they are best at.

Fire Caste the 

the ethereal dies the highest ranking member of ANY caste becomes the leader of the tau forces, at first it was a fire commander but then he died so the water caste diplomat took over


In the Tau it's who ever has the highest rank is in command no matter what his/her caste, and the ethereal are more along the lines guides,



> Good Imperial Planets?
> 
> The Ultramar System, Pavonis, the worlds in the Ravenor and Eisenhorn books, Taris Ultra, the one in _Double Eagle_, those once part of 'the 500 worlds of Ultramar'. The 3rd ed rulebook has a whole category of 'civilized planets'. The 5th ed one states there's a massive variety, each with their own culture, level of advancement etc.
> 
> That's just off the top of my head. An exhaustive search would likely yield more.


Pavonis...so a planet under the direct control of the Administratum
is in your idea of good. 

So a world ruled by political parties that try to kill inquisitors and have a strangle hold on warp tainted computers are good. A world ruled by a shaman priest is good. 

A world where the nobility gets to sleep through every ice age is good. A world where they can throw you into a pit with a 6 legged tiger is good, a feudal planet.

So by your own account a good imperial world is a world in which is ruled by an Authoritarian administration or a Feudal system where the nobility has all the power and can do just about what they want...hell than almost every Imperial world is good.

That's just off the top of my head.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

locustgate said:


> Page 7
> "Ethereal outlawed breeding out of caste"
> 
> Ok, however in Shadowsun she is given special permission to breed with anyone she chooses, she mentions the possibility of selecting someone from a different caste but prefers a fire caste memeber.
> ...


You wrote it there yourself, from the codex, word of god. 'Outlawed'. That doesn't mean discouraged, it means not allowed. The one exception is Shadowson, which you admit is 'special permission'. The greatest Tau commander since Puretide is given special permission to breed, no wonder. That what it takes to circumvent the restriction. 

_Firewarrior_? The novelization of the video game? I would put as much stock in that as i would in the Goto's Dawn of War books, that is to say, none. 



> Like I mentioned before who ever is the highest rank is in charge, fire warrior the commander is in charge when
> 
> the admiral dies and the ethereal is kidnapped again
> . Even when the ethereal is present he more just stood back and let others do what they are best at.
> ...


Again you're missing the point. It's not that ranking members of each caste can't command their own, or other castes in certain circumstances, it's that no other caste has any political power. Only the ethereal caste may determine the policies of the empire, only they may make the laws, only they lead the empire. They rule by decree and their rule is unquestionable. 

You will never, and are not allowed, to leave your caste. 




> Pavonis...so a planet under the direct control of the Administratum
> is in your idea of good.


A planet where the living conditions are reasonable, where workers get paid, where there's such things as voting and political and/or social organisations. Yea that sounds alright. Hell it was a democracy before it was ruled by the Administratum, which suggests again, that the Imperium doesn't care how you rule your planet. 



> So a world ruled by political parties that try to kill inquisitors and have a strangle hold on warp tainted computers are good. A world ruled by a shaman priest is good.
> 
> A world where the nobility gets to sleep through every ice age is good. A world where they can throw you into a pit with a 6 legged tiger is good, a feudal planet.


I was thinking more of the worlds that had hover cars, bustling cities, thriving trade and industry and a high level of technology. Where people lived normal lives. 



> So by your own account a good imperial world is a world in which is ruled by an Authoritarian administration or a Feudal system where the nobility has all the power and can do just about what they want...hell than almost every Imperial world is good.


Why is an authoritarian administration or feudal system automatically bad? The people on those worlds had a good standard of living, there was the rule of law, they weren't pollution chocked wastelands or nightmarish dystopias. 

What about the other worlds i mentioned? Like the one from_ Double Eagle_. That planet was pleasant (excluding the war going on). It had normal people living normal lives in pleasant cities. There were resteraunts and entertainment. 

The point is that there are, and are allowed to be, worlds which are pleasant. Where people live normal lives. It's not all dystopia all the time.



> That's just off the top of my head.


No need to be facetious. 

@Magpie



Magpie_Oz said:


> Shadowsun shows some Imperial citizens getting on just fine with the Tau, indeed remarking on and being grateful for their compassion.


I haven't read Shadowsun, would you mind elaborating on the context? Was this an already conquered world, one being invaded? Did she spare their lives or something? 




> "A Sanctuary of Wyrms" sees a Deathwatch Iron Hand team up with a Tau to fight a greater evil, without summarily executing her.
> 
> If that is possible, anything is !


I admitted that in certain situations the Space Marines could still be pragmatic. I haven't read the story but this seems like such a situation. The Deathwatch are notably unorthodox and (alongside the Ordos Xenos) do interact with xenos far more often that most Imperial organisations or persons. Still a singular, specific circumstance does not indicate any general softening of Imperial policy, which is still, Kill the Alien.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Rems said:


> I haven't read Shadowsun, would you mind elaborating on the context? Was this an already conquered world, one being invaded? Did she spare their lives or something?


It was a world that was in dispute. Shadowsun provided transport and a new home for one of the IG commanders and his daughter.




Rems said:


> I admitted that in certain situations the Space Marines could still be pragmatic. I haven't read the story but this seems like such a situation. The Deathwatch are notably unorthodox and (alongside the Ordos Xenos) do interact with xenos far more often that most Imperial organisations or persons. Still a singular, specific circumstance does not indicate any general softening of Imperial policy, which is still, Kill the Alien.


It shows that quite clearly under the appropriate circumstances that the Imperium can accept the Tau and work with them. 

If this is exists within the organisation that is _specifically formed to destroy aliens_ then it is not unreasonable to assume that greater acceptance can exist within the civilian populations.

A Tau emissary arranging a meeting with a trader to come to an agreement over the use of the Tau webway for shipping is not beyond imagination nor outside the scope of the 40k back story. 

What trader would pass up the opportunity for risk free instant transport of their goods to anywhere in the Imperium as a market edge over their competitors? 

If directed at the correct person, be quite likely to open up trade links / trade arrangements with the Tau. 

We all know where trade links lead.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Rems said:


> I haven't read Shadowsun, would you mind elaborating on the context? Was this an already conquered world, one being invaded? Did she spare their lives or something?


It was a world that was in dispute. Shadowsun provided transport and a new home for one of the IG commanders and his daughter.




Rems said:


> I admitted that in certain situations the Space Marines could still be pragmatic. I haven't read the story but this seems like such a situation. The Deathwatch are notably unorthodox and (alongside the Ordos Xenos) do interact with xenos far more often that most Imperial organisations or persons. Still a singular, specific circumstance does not indicate any general softening of Imperial policy, which is still, Kill the Alien.


It shows that quite clearly under the appropriate circumstances that the Imperium can accept the Tau and work with them. 

If this is exists within the organisation that is _specifically formed to destroy aliens_ then it is not unreasonable to assume that greater acceptance can exist within the civilian populations.

A Tau emissary arranging a meeting with a trader to come to an agreement over the use of the Tau webway for shipping is not beyond imagination nor outside the scope of the 40k back story. 

What trader would pass up the opportunity for risk free instant transport of their goods to anywhere in the Imperium as a market edge over their competitors? 

If directed at the correct person, be quite likely to open up trade links / trade arrangements with the Tau. 

We all know where trade links lead.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Rems said:


> You wrote it there yourself, from the codex, word of god. 'Outlawed'. That doesn't mean discouraged, it means not allowed. The one exception is Shadowson, which you admit is 'special permission'. The greatest Tau commander since Puretide is given special permission to breed, no wonder. That what it takes to circumvent the restriction.
> 
> _Firewarrior_? The novelization of the video game? I would put as much stock in that as i would in the Goto's Dawn of War books, that is to say, none.
> 
> I haven't read Shadowsun, would you mind elaborating on the context? Was this an already conquered world, one being invaded? Did she spare their lives or something?


I've never read Double Eagle.

Firewarrior is about as close to the video game as Jurassic Park the Book is to the Movie. The only reason why he didn't go out of caste is the stigma it would put on him and any offspring that results. The members of the caste don't usually seem to want to go out.

In Shadowsun a 

human PDF officer helps Shadowsun shut down the comm office on the human planet that is being invaded. After they do the human and his daughter is shipped off the world to a safer one in the empire along with other humans that requested it.

Shadowsun is given special permission to retire from the military and have a family, which is rare for someone her age, what ever it is. Usually it's given only to those that have served for years.

In both books it seemed that the only punishment anyone would suffer from 'breaking caste' is from other caste members.

P.S. Both the book and game came out at the same time.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Magpie_Oz said:


> If this is exists within the organisation that is _specifically formed to destroy aliens_ then it is not unreasonable to assume that greater acceptance can exist within the civilian populations.


I don't think the Ordo Xenos was specifically formed to destroy aliens, it was formed to defend humanity from aliens. There's an important distinction there and it's one that allows them to co-operate with certain xenos when necessary. The same kind of thinking is why Inquisitors can have daemonhosts without that indicating that the Imperium has suddenly become okay with Chaos. Standard Imperial policy is still to kill Xenos on sight, that's the letter of the law. The Inquisition, and the Astartes to a somewhat lesser extent, are allowed to (and even expected to) operate outside the law, so long as they are still serving the interests of the Imperium.



> What trader would pass up the opportunity for risk free instant transport of their goods to anywhere in the Imperium as a market edge over their competitors?


No one would pass that up, unless of course they thought too much about the risk of being executed for even consorting with Xenos, which given the ever-present Inquisition is rather high. Or recognized the obvious fact that the transport offered is neither risk free nor instantaneous. 

The kind of people that the Tau would be able to access with these sorts of deals are not really the sort of people they want to be seen with, certainly not the sort who will provide leverage into the control of a planet.



> If directed at the correct person, be quite likely to open up trade links / trade arrangements with the Tau.


I get that the point of the thread is to ignore the obvious difficulties of the Tau entering the webway but I don't think you're allowed to assume that the Tau just automatically know how it all works, or otherwise ignore established characteristics of the webway. 

The webway accesses specific gates on certain planets (and sometimes in space). Therefore in order to use the webway to reach a specific planet you have to know which gate is on it and how to get there. The Tau have no way of doing this. The webway is constantly changing, it is stated in the Dark Eldar codex that even following previous routes is unlikely to get you to the same place. The Eldar races likely overcome this with millions of years of experience and their psychic powers, both of which the Tau lack. And of course the gate has to be on the planet you want to visit and accessible, both of which seem to be fairly uncommon on Imperial worlds (hence why the Eldar aren't everywhere).

Once you reach the planet you then have to exit the gate, which is a fixed, unchanging position. You will always leave in the same place and in the same method. So your ability to determine who you talk to at this point is pretty much nil. You're wherever the gate is and the people you talk to are whoever is around. Maybe those people are underworld smugglers interested in the tech and travel the Tau can now offer, or maybe (and more likely) they're well armed religious zealots who would sooner murder all Tau-kind then give them the time of day.

And of course, the webway itself appears to be semi-sentient and capable of cutting intruders out of it. That's part of what makes the Dolmen gates risky for the Necrons, the fact that the webway itself rejects their presence. Would it do the same to the Tau? Quite possibly.



> We all know where trade links lead.


Investigation from the Inquisition and violent death.

No seriously, that's how trade links wind up for everyone involved in flects (the Ravenor books). That's a narcotic sourced and smuggled entirely by humans, how quick do you think they'd jump all over Tau tech and reports of blue aliens?


Of course the Tau aren't really all that likely to encounter the Imperium through the webway. Far more likely are encounters with one of the Eldar kindreds, so we should really be looking at how those groups would react to the Tau:
-The Craftworlder's seem to be generally fairly neutral on the Tau, though some of them definitely look favourably upon them. Access to the webway would allow the Tau to travel to, and attempt to conquer, the Maiden and Exodite worlds. Both of these things have prompted violent reprisal from the Eldar in the past and are almost certain to again.
-The Exodite for their part just want to be left alone. The Tau would not let them do that and so the two would be in conflict from the word go.
-The Dark Eldar are also fairly neutral with the Tau but with a more negative slant. Access to the webway would be viewed as, at best a momentary distraction from which to cull a fresh herd, or, at worst a threat to themselves to be met with an even more violent response than the Craftworlders would give.
All in all it seems unlikely that the Tau could expect a warm, or even survivable, response from the inhabitants of the webway.


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