# Codex Space Marines confirmations



## Wrath of Khaine (Dec 29, 2006)

There are all from Games Day Chicago. A shout out to BoLS for these nuggets of awe.








The codex is described as lavish, with a large color section, and clocking in at nearly 150 pages. Lets dive right into some of the details:

*HQs*
*Master*
Has well over 20 wargear options, and access to a once per game S:10 AP:1 Orbital Strike that is somewhat similar to the Witchhunter power.

*Librarian*
Leadership 10, and has an entire page of various powers to select from. Big news is the Psychic Hood which now has a range of 24" instead of infinite.

*Master of the Forge*
Access to the Conversion Beamer, an old-school Rogue Trader era weapon with a 72" range that grows more powerful the greater the distance to its targets. At its top end, it is S:10 AP:1 Small Blast.

*Elites*
*Terminators*
Available in squad sizes of 5-10. Stormshields for Assault Termys confirmed as 3+ invulnerable vs all attacks (assault and shooting).

*Techmarines*
Has a power allowing you to improve the cover save of a single piece of ruins in your deployment zone by +1. Access to the Thunderfire Cannon, which is artillery and has multiple fire modes based upon 4 small blast markers. One of the fire modes makes its target count as being in difficult ground next turn.

*Honor Guard*
These bad boys have access to "Relic blades" which are +2S powerweapons. Their squad leader is the "Company Champion" who is required to direct attacks vs enemy ICs if possible.

*Troops*
*Tactical Squads*
Available in 5-10 men. Squads of ten grant access to Flamer/Multimelta/Missile Launcher/Heavy Bolter for FREE. Squads less than 10 may not purchase any special or heavy weapons.

*Scouts*
WS/BS:3; the heavy bolter option has access to Hellfire rounds.

*Land Speeder Storm*
Scout transport land speeder nullifies enemy teleport homers and icons within 6". Enemy deepstrikers within 12" roll double scatter. Enemy units who are assualted from it are at -2 Leadership.

*Combat Tactics*
New marine special rule allows you to voluntarily fail any morale check for any unit in the army.

*ICs*
*Shrike (Raven Guard)*
Grants the entire army Fleet instead of Combat Tactics. He has rending lightning claws and Infiltrate.

*Cantor (Crimson Fists)*
Grants the entire army Stubborn instead of Combat Tactics. Sternguard Veterans count as scoring units.


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## CrazyfrogXxX (Jul 28, 2008)

this sounds too much for me!!!! i only just finishd my spaz marine4 army OMG!! u spazzzz s!


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## Canadish (Jun 17, 2008)

Well that sounds like good stuff :biggrin:
Although I'm wondering....have the Marines been nurfed in any department other then the Librarian hood? Otherwise we're gonna be rather tough comparied to everyone else :laugh:

Canadish

(edit: Are the honour guards for the Ultramarines only or do we all get them now?)


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Wrath of Khaine said:


> Big news is the Psychic Hood which now has a range of 24" instead of infinite.


That is fantastic news, stupid hoods!


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## leinad-yor (Apr 14, 2008)

*Shrike (Raven Guard)*
Grants the entire army Fleet instead of Combat Tactics. He has rending lightning claws and Infiltrate.

OMG, I need more assault marines!!!:shout:


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## Riandro (Feb 28, 2008)

oh my god? a whole army having fleet... thats seriously over powered.....

but on a good note hoods are now 24"! im sure Galahad will be pleased, he hates those things.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Riandro said:


> ... hoods are now 24"! im sure Galahad will be pleased, he hates those things.


My thoughts exactly.

And I'm quite certain that anything that's good for Gal's blood-pressure is good for the rest of us too.

Except maybe Blood Ravens players.

Meh. Johnny-come-lately DoW bandwagon jumpers, who need them?

(Sorry sorry sorry sorry really didn't mean it!)

:wondering if he said sorry enough times cyclops:


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## Canadish (Jun 17, 2008)

Red Orc said:


> Except maybe Blood Ravens players.
> 
> Meh. Johnny-come-lately DoW bandwagon jumpers, who need them?
> 
> ...



*OBJECTION!!!* :grin:

I actually joined up with the Blood Ravens due to their interesting back story and history I'll have you know....so HA! :taunt:

But in seriousness, I'm not too worried, I'm always fighting Tau...and we all know how good THEY are in the Psychic department...:grin:



Canadish


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Chaos marine players: H-hey GW..can we have some of those nice CC upgrades? You know, to make us have some sort of feasible edge over loyalists?

GW: Who are you? Oh...you're those ultramarines with spikey bits on them. No. And any more complaints and we'll take ALL the options out!

Chaos marine players: B-but we don't...have...any realistic options anymore...what could you possibly take away?

GW: THAT'S IT! Next codex you guys don't even get a fuggen hq choice.


The honor guard squad has converted me. Hahahah. They filled the one soft spot in a marines CC defense(anti monstrous creature) and that +2S can...of course...just get them strong enough to dent dreadnoughts.


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## EndangeredHuman (Feb 20, 2008)

Ooooh, *scratches head* my poor poor army list... Thank God I removed those flamers from my 5-man tac squads.. and what's the big deal with Scouts and hellfire rounds? So, full-fledged marines don't get the better weapons anymore? This makes my Tyrannic War Vet's a little less hardcore... Though my techmarine is no longer going to be laughted at, or be asked to be replaced by those damned termies!


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

wat about veteran squads with access to special ammo?
i heard from warseer about those guys


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## Cadian81st (Dec 24, 2006)

Captain Galus said:


> wat about veteran squads with access to special ammo?
> i heard from warseer about those guys


Like a deathwatch killteam? That'd be cool.

I like Shrike's fleet ability, looks like the raven guard are going to be the "Iron Warriors" of 5th ed.


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## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

:shok: damn I hope the +2S power weapons on the sturnguard are true. This book is going to be epic.


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

Riandro said:


> oh my god? a whole army having fleet... thats seriously over powered.....


Eldar? Dark Eldar? Tyranids? 

But the new marine list will seem quite epic... think im going to have fun playing them and smurfing them with Dark Eldar


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## Juiceypoop (Jun 5, 2008)

poor chaos space marines


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## CrazyfrogXxX (Jul 28, 2008)

to me it seems cheaply made cos look at the pic on the front it looks stupid!:threaten:


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## Riandro (Feb 28, 2008)

effigy22 said:


> Eldar? Dark Eldar? Tyranids?


true SOME of them fleet. but it says that the whole ARMY can fleet... i mean wtf... i might as well sell my tyranids and get space marines, i mean tyranids can mulch things in close combat, but they are shite at shooting, space marines can do both... ive said it once ill say it again.. over-powered


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> but on a good note hoods are now 24"! im sure Galahad will be pleased, he hates those things.


He isn't the only one. Being a Thousand Sons player, that made my day.



> tyranids can mulch things in close combat, but they are shite at shooting, space marines can do both... ive said it once ill say it again.. over-powered


Don't forget, if you are fleeting, you are not shooting.


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## swntzu (Dec 25, 2007)

I'm liking these changes although the loss of traits is a bit of a bugger. The creep of special characters into the game is a thing I don't like.

Now that psychic hoods have been fixed all we have to do is wait for a rectification of runes of warding.


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

> space marines can do both... ive said it once ill say it again.. over-powered


bout damn time the imperium was OP at something!


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## Edzard (Jul 2, 2008)

Hehe I may just have to get that damn starterkit and start a marine army (together with finishing my Orks and starting Witchhunters... )
Crazy buffs if you ask me, then again I guess this was not unexpected.


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## Trignama (Jun 29, 2008)

damn no more 6 man las/plas squads, there goes templar fire support and the use of the razorback i just bought, ha ha, but having command squads with thos runic blades now that i can appreciate, about damn time we got something other than powerfists to take down mc's in cc any idea on a release date yet?


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

I find this really weird... AS troops are the only scoring units they seem to be making them a little nerfed but make the elites Godly.... It's kind of a smart idea actually... might make SM armies fairly balanced between both elite and troops....


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Good point- now you've got to choose on spending your points on all those sexy elites (I love you Honour Guard, can we have sexy time?) or having enough troops to actually win games.


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## angels of fire (Dec 4, 2007)

Chaos space marines: We're boned.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

I don't think chaos are all that boned really. The best things in a chaos army are usually the cults and they're all troops so you can have a bitchin good force that can still hold objectives. Imperials have to use their sexy time giving elites to clear them then have another unit hold it, therefore taking twice as many units to hold the same objective.....


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## weasly (Jun 18, 2008)

I think in the new rules though they really need to show how well space marines fight. In the books they poon guardsmen but in the game they still get their 5+ save.


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## Dessel_Ordo (Jul 28, 2008)

as long as I still have a way to make my army as anti-smurf as possible without being chaos, I'll be happy.

With all those sexy new elite choices I may even forgive a nerfing of/removal of trait system... provided I can still diverge, so that all my anti smurf banter isnt just the spluttering rage of an idiotic lying poser.

overall I'm optimistic about the new dex tho


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

effigy22 said:


> Eldar? Dark Eldar? Tyranids?
> 
> But the new marine list will seem quite epic... think im going to have fun playing them and smurfing them with Dark Eldar


And eldar were OP in the last edition.

And spess mehreins...NERFED!? They get -free- heavy weapons. Free. What the flying crap.

I mean to fight back, we have cult troops. Cult troops that excel at one thing each, and if you bring the wrong one, you're boned.

"Oh good, I brought my thousand sons."
"Sorry, only nids and orks here"
"D:"

"Well that's okay, I got my Death guard."
"Well here's monstrous creatures and dreadnoughts."
"D:<"

I mean without knowing the matchup beforehand, our cult list suffers. And the recent powerfist/icon nerf(We can lose icons earlier now) chaos is barely worth playing. The only actual benefit is our dual weilding basic marines, lash of submission, and cheap rhinos. Outside of that we're fairly lacking in good stuff.

And you guys seem to think that marines will be unable to hold objectives. With those free heavy weapons and auto-fleet from Shrike, they can blast away at pursuers than reliably charge them. They're actually everything I'd want in a "rush to the objective and stand there" force.


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## Saint7515 (Apr 30, 2008)

Trignama said:


> damn no more 6 man las/plas squads, there goes templar fire support and the use of the razorback i just bought,


Unless there is an actual errata released @ the same time, our codex over-rides the Main one (me-thinks); that said, do they issue those kinds of errata often? was there anything big for BA, DA, or Space wolves that needed to be changed AFTER a SM codex change but BEFORE the updated chapter book?

I'd like to think that they leave us alone; we can't have Devo squads for fire support, and then they force us to make scitzo-units (I want to Shoot! I want to Assault! I can't chooooooossssseeeee!!!)


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

It all seems to me that SM are now wayyy overpowered. Free heavy weapons with a full squad? WTF is that? So you HAVE to take more troops (which oh by the way, will be the only units able to hold objectives. So hey, guess what, SM get to kill two birds with one stone.) in order to get these free weapons. Also great to know I can get nailed by a high strength Conversion Beamer on my first turn. Storm shields giving an invulnerable 3+ to both shooting AND assault attacks? Again, WTF is that? The nightbringer, which is supposed to be the embodinment of a god only gets a 4+ invulnerable save (and no, i'm not saying it should be better, I'm saying that if a god can't block attack better than a 4+ how can a stupid little shield?). 

Being able to add +1 to any piece of their terrain, basically giving a unit that has 3+ saves anyhow saves that are even closer to invulnerable saves? Gee, I just smacked you in the face with a heavy gauss cannon that can eat it's way through both sides of a land raider but yet, it has no effect on this magical barricade those stupid techmarines put up. 

The option to fail a morale test? WTF is this? What's the point of having a leadership then when I thought it was suppose to represent some aspect of the unit's ability to rally and face the enemy. I might expect this rule for IG but for SM who are suppose to stand up to any foe and not back down? It makes no sense. Might as well just attach the extra attack for charging to the permanent stats. 

Relic blades? +2S power weapons? So not only do I now have to worry about powerfists with that wonderful instant killing ability, I have to worry about a weapon that basically confers the same thing (as in most cases, S6 will be enough to wound on 2's just like a powerfist) but allows the user to keep his base initiative? 

And with the whole, CSM still get their cult groups, well not quite. In addition to them being rather specific towards only certain scenarios we now have to deal with something else. Enter the Land Speeder Storm. Nullifying icons and teleporters. Adding an extra d6 to scatter for deep striking units and my units that get assaulted from it now have a -2 leadership modifier. 

This all sounds great for SM players. Sounds horrible for the rest of us I think. SM were not one of the armies that needed even more firepower and high strength CC weapons. 

I think GW went, "Here little Space Marines, you weren't overpowered enough as it is so here's a nice big buttload of automatic Win for you." 

If they release the rule for SM like this, then they definitely need to release some other codexes for other armies alongside it to balance things out. Personally, I think with the release of 5th ed and how much it's changed how the game plays, GW should have had 5th ed ready codexes lined up and ready to go alongside the launch of the 5th ed rulebook. Instead, they'll slowly trickle them out so that at any given point, one army can completely wipe the field with the others. Meanwhile, a bunch of those armies that are getting wiped are going, "wow, a lot of the benefits my army got only really work well for 3rd or 4th edition and really don't have a place anymore now that 5th edition is out." 

Sorry for the rambling, it just all seems to be too much for an army that already had a buttload of crap to begin with. And yes, I know most of you are going to say something along the lines of, "well, you just have to change your tactics now." It just seems rather unfair to me when you play an army other than SM and you get it just the way you like and GW uses the SM to take a massive crap in your face by having the SM say something along the lines of, "Well, we're immune to all your weapons, tactics and we've got a billion ships in orbit ready to blow you off the face of this planet. AND if that's not enough, we have a weapon that defies logic! Yes that's right. You thought bullets slowed down as they travelled further didn't you? Well not this one right here. Nosiree. It uses magical farts and pixie dust to hit you harder the further you are from us! Let the tau try and do THAT with one of their railguns! But wait! There's more! We've also got this neat-o-terrific gun that shoots rocks at you! No no, these rocks won't hurt you ya silly goose. We made these rocks sticky, all coated in honey and such. so now when they hit ya they'll bog ya down and make it harder for ya to move!"


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

something to consider: Pathfinders get a 2+ save if there in woods and the like.
Also marines squads cannot get *any* special or heavy weapons unless their 10 man squads. Also they only have a limited choice in the free heavy weapons.


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> something to consider: Pathfinders get a 2+ save if there in woods and the like.
> Also marines squads cannot get *any* special or heavy weapons unless their 10 man squads. Also they only have a limited choice in the free heavy weapons.


How well does that work when along with the pathfinder, the woods get incinerated by an orbital bombardment, lol.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

I have no idea...
Another thing: I rekon blast weapons shopuld have a negative modifier on cover, sure a flamer allows no cover, but its hard to use cover when its being destroyed as well.


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## The_Pi (Mar 20, 2008)

BloodAngelZeros, Dark Eldar Commander can have a 2+ Inv save...

And, yes, they might sound overpowered but remember what always happen in 40K, the tech war, every new codex is more powerful than the one published before (i mean, if SM are over powered, when Dark Eldar codex comes out, probably will be more powerful than the SM one, and so on), so it's not a big deal. I can hear in the distance the future anger about the new Eldar codex and all his special rules and antimarine weapons.


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## Trignama (Jun 29, 2008)

well, i want an op'd templar codex, then i'll be :grin: and love to hear the ppl gripe about it =)


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## bl0203 (Nov 10, 2007)

Remember guys, a lot of this stuff is rumors (I hope). Look back three-five months ago when we heard all the horrible 5th Ed stuff. Now the new rules set wasn't as bad as we all thought it would be, or was it?:grin: Its kinda of funny to hear every one run around screaming "The Sky is falling!!!" :laugh: 

I'm hoping it won't be as bad as every one is saying its going to be!!! We just need to roll with the punches. :victory:


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

From *BoLS*:



> here are some morsels that have washed up on the shore on our good friend, the Master of Bling - Marneus Calgar himself.
> 
> *Marneus Calgar*
> First off, Marneus Calgar is described as awesome; the Abaddon of loyalists. Not simply because he's an outstanding fighter but because of the support he provides for his army. He gives all Ultramarines the ability to pass or fail any Leadership test (other reports say morale checks). This is a superior ability to Combat Tactics as that only works in CC and the marines can normally only choose to fail.
> ...


A true god of war


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## EndangeredHuman (Feb 20, 2008)

BloodAngelZeros said:


> The option to fail a morale test? WTF is this? What's the point of having a leadership then when I thought it was suppose to represent some aspect of the unit's ability to rally and face the enemy. I might expect this rule for IG but for SM who are suppose to stand up to any foe and not back down? It makes no sense.


Here I disagree, I feel it would give a more 'fluffy' atmosphere. When you see a stronger army right infront of you, and you're hit by some magical ray beam to lower your inner moral, a highly trained death killer machine doesn't say "Oh dear, hold on while I go and cry" he thinks "Hold on, their messing with my mind, let's move back" so it can become more of a logical tacticle withdrawal.


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

EndangeredHuman said:


> Here I disagree, I feel it would give a more 'fluffy' atmosphere. When you see a stronger army right infront of you, and you're hit by some magical ray beam to lower your inner moral, a highly trained death killer machine doesn't say "Oh dear, hold on while I go and cry" he thinks "Hold on, their messing with my mind, let's move back" so it can become more of a logical tacticle withdrawal.


I still don't think that as every bit of fluff I've read on the Space Marines has had the marines pushing on no matter what the odds. Take the Emperor's Children when they were facing a warsinger. If seeing a body rip apart by _song_ doesn't get you to fall back, I don't know what will. Another example would be in Decent of Angels when they're assaulting the fort of the Knights of Lupus. When the monstrous lizard thing lets out cries that make their ears _bleed_. Again, they just stood there and took it while the Lion killed the thing. The only instance i've really read (at least so far) that marines make a tactful withdraw is on Istvaan III when they're getting bombed by the lifeater virus. So yes, if the marines are somehow getting bombed by a lifeater virus, then by all means, let them withdraw. Even at the dropsite massacre of Istvaan V, only a few made a withdraw and that's because their entire chapter would be snuffed out if they didn't. My point in all this is that SM are stubborn and heroic enough that they would continue to either stand and face the foe or continue to push onward. Hence the auto-rally thing.


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

The_Pi said:


> BloodAngelZeros, Dark Eldar Commander can have a 2+ Inv save...


Yes, but he doesn't have the strength or toughness of a terminator now does he? The armies I play are resilient against low strength attacks, which (I don't know much about what an Archon can take as far as weaponry, so please forgive me if what I say is incorrect, I'm just going off of what I see in the general rulebook as I've never faced DE either.) I don't think the Archon can muster enough strength to decimate an entire 20 man unit. But remember, the Archon is a single model, terminators get 5-10 in a unit (i believe) and all of them have 3+ invul saves and thunderhammers (as I see is the combo most of the time). On top of that, they can deep strike as well, so chances are they won't see much shooting before they're in assault. My basic point in all of this is that IMO SM were one of the last of the armies that needed a new codex.



bl0203 said:


> Remember guys, a lot of this stuff is rumors (I hope). Look back three-five months ago when we heard all the horrible 5th Ed stuff. Now the new rules set wasn't as bad as we all thought it would be, or was it?:grin: Its kinda of funny to hear every one run around screaming "The Sky is falling!!!" :laugh:
> 
> I'm hoping it won't be as bad as every one is saying its going to be!!! We just need to roll with the punches. :victory:


As far as I know, the threadstarter said those rules were from the actual codex that's going to be released. I've heard other people saying that GW was letting people look at it at Chicago GD. So I'm tending to think this sort of thing is more on the true side then the rumor side. But then again, it still hasn't been released to the masses so there's still time for changes to be made.


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## Anphicar (Dec 31, 2006)

I dont like that cover, the marine looks so half-assed.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

BloodAngelZeros said:


> As far as I know, the threadstarter said those rules were from the actual codex that's going to be released. I've heard other people saying that GW was letting people look at it at Chicago GD. So I'm tending to think this sort of thing is more on the true side then the rumor side. But then again, it still hasn't been released to the masses so there's still time for changes to be made.


The blood angel codex was shown around a lot before it came out in WD and it was changed by then. Plus it was changed again when they made the downloadable version of it so Until the official launch day and the book is available en masse nothing can be proven....


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## blackws (Jul 3, 2008)

Wow some of these changes look very nice i am looking forward to it. I am pretty sure there will be some changes though


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## The_Pi (Mar 20, 2008)

Well, the Archon can have a weapon that wounds on a 4+... Maybe the storm shield is that good now because of too many prisma shots after deepstriking, but that's not the point, termies, having 3+ inv save fall in combat like the rest of minis, shoot with all you've got.

Snake eyes watching the termies...


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## Kato (Apr 17, 2008)

Good god, that is one of the worst front covers I've seen yet. It just looks...poor, it's as if the graphics department couldn't be arsed and just kinda pulled something that they had lying around but could never find a use for.


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## Spot The Grot (Jul 15, 2008)

i think they've made the blue a bit too bold and as chaos collector i'm not happy with the cover  . It would surprise me if scouts got a BS reduction as they would be a bit cheaper and almost too cheap for marines a marine hittin on 4's no thx


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

im not really liking the cover...the best cover art is the space marine codex we have now


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## EndangeredHuman (Feb 20, 2008)

Yeah, it's definatly not as good as the current edition. But I don't think it's horrble, personally. It's a damn sight better than the earlier editions! *Shudder*


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## lordcid (Jun 28, 2008)

The new space marine codex is great if you have that type of army but if you have Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space wolves and black templars this new stuuf will not be give for use to have at the start we will have to wait for faq or new codex


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## Judas Masias (Jun 5, 2008)

I really like the Ultramarine shooting the shit out of that Chaos Marine on the cover.:victory:


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## Dessel_Ordo (Jul 28, 2008)

and I really wish that GW would either come out that they have a hard0on for the Ultras (like Timmy in South Park did/does for that turkey) or move on and stop trying to push the gad-damned smurfs on everyone!!!!

As far as the powe race, yea, its true. I've been tellin my eldar buddy (who can kill 30+ marines with one 5 man Reaper squad, before I get to cc with his STORM GUARDIANS (15 to 20 models with power weapons, and better initiative then mine) or any other over-powered specialist unit the eldar have) that his army is gonna get beat to death with the nerf-stick. But if even half of these rumors are true, the eldar will get a similair boost. Just like 'Crons will get more WBB units; 'Nids will get... more; Tau will get better guns; ect ect ect. My point is, non-Marine players quit your bitchin... this isnt the end of your army; more of a preveiw of what you are gonna get... soon(ish). In fact, its gonna be all of us Marine players who are gonna be stirring up a shit-storm like you guys are on OUR rumor board right now. just let us have our fun/happy time now... and we may remember how cool you guys were about it for us and not be AS vocal about how shit on we feel when YOUR new dex comes out.

k:rant donek:
sorry about that


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## beenburned (May 15, 2008)

Dude...power weapons on storm guardians...looks like you've been bullshitted there. They only have CC weapons.

Also yeah, chill :victory:


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

Yes, but for some armies, their new codex (if they're even getting one) can be up to a year away or longer where as the SM codex is coming out in what, November? That's quite a bit of time for the SM to beat the crap out of all the others that don't have updated codexes. WBB rolls are outdated as they stand (FnP seems much better to have if you exclude the use of a resurrection orb) and from what I hear people saying, necrons will be lucky if much of anything changes for them. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for plenty of things to change about the necrons even if it's just for the sake of moving the fluff along. The main irksome point in all this is that rather than relying on tactics, it just seems that SM players just get a whole bunch of kick-ass weaponry for ranged and CC situations and they go have fun with it. It's like giving a kid in a toy store your no-limits credit card and saying, "have fun timmy!" I think that if they're going to release a new edition of the general rulebook, then GW should have the whole line of new codexes lined up and ready to go along with it instead letting them trickle out here and there.


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## beenburned (May 15, 2008)

Well, yes that would be an ideal situation, but think how long we would have between editions. 8 years plus. That would mean 8 years to endure one stupid rule in the current edition or something. I like the way it works now, as it gives you the flexibility to play with the new or the old rules and tailor the game to how you want to play it easily. If we're waiting a long time between editions, then you're options are going to be limited.


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

Yes, I suppose that is true too. That it keeps players interested in the game at least. Ha, and when has GW been known for ideal situations? I dunno, it just seems that this way it also skews tourneys and such to favor those armies that have just been updated (i.e. enough time for players to exploit their new weaponry, rules, etc. but not enough time for players with outdated armies to come up with counter strategies). Then again, tourneys tend to be known for bringing out the cheesiest of army lists.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Also remember when the chaos codex came out? Or the eldar one? everyone who didn't play those armies were complaining about how crap their armies were in comparison. The only lasting complaint I'v seen about the codices is that the fluff is basically fucked out the window and with all the new vehicles and weapon types it's going to be the same here. 
"see this land speeder, land raider, razorback variants, artillery gun and these shiny super swords? You've always had them, just never noticed"


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

I dunno about the fluff thing though. The mechanicum adepts are always analyzing alien technology and such so I doubt it's all that surprising to see new weapons come out. Arcane swords on the other hand fits your description, lol. Hey, I found this in Jim's locker. You know Jim, the guy that got killed 4 centuries ago? Well, anyway, how about we give it a whirl? Whoa, it's much better than my rusty ole chainsword."


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

with the swords though it means the emperors champion isn't that special abymore so i'd like too see him being changed....
Does anyone know if they are leaving standalone codices purely standalone or are they making an FAQ for them to have such shiny new things?


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

I don't know what the official word is, but I would think that they're going to go to more of a FAQ type of thing like they did with the Blood Angels (it is after all, the cheaper route). That's just my two cents though.


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## beenburned (May 15, 2008)

I honestly prefer that route. Less hassle for them, cheaper for us. Hopefully it also means we'll see more of that sort of thing(since it's less hassle), like the return of the craftworld rules, or introduce more chapters to compensate for the loss of traits. Same thing could be applied to the IG's loss of doctrines. Man, yeah I'm all for FAQs.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> I have no idea...
> Another thing: I rekon blast weapons shopuld have a negative modifier on cover, sure a flamer allows no cover, but its hard to use cover when its being destroyed as well.


with the way ordinance works(not sure if it applies to all blast, sorry) if the hole in the center of the template is inside the peice of cover, the cover is negated, as the blast originated from within the cover.


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## SPYDeR13 (Dec 18, 2007)

So I know that I'm not going to ask or state anything new but here I go anyway. 

Will the BA, DA and BT get a big FAQ? I fail to see why anyone would play BA or DA with the release of the SM codex. I mean shit the damn Crimson Fists can be stubborn but the Dark Angels lost it, WTF? First they take the Venerable from the Wolves now there going to take the scouts as well. They (GW) take the personality out of one or more popular armies and give it to the god damned Space Marines! Why even give BA, DA, BT or SW there own books? 

As for people saying to chill out that other armies will be brought into line with this codex is crap and they know it. I mean how long have the Dark Eldar been waiting to be brought up to speed with everyone else? Or the damned Space Wolves?

I don't play Space Marines so over all I could give a shit about the new book (and 5th edition for that matter), but we all know that this is shit plane and simple. I'm not trying to ruffle anyones feathers just voicing my opinion.k:


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

The_Pi said:


> BloodAngelZeros, Dark Eldar Commander can have a 2+ Inv save...
> 
> And, yes, they might sound overpowered but remember what always happen in 40K, the tech war, every new codex is more powerful than the one published before (i mean, if SM are over powered, when Dark Eldar codex comes out, probably will be more powerful than the SM one, and so on), so it's not a big deal. I can hear in the distance the future anger about the new Eldar codex and all his special rules and antimarine weapons.


That's simply incorrect. The current chaos codex is weaker than last addition and I don't believe a single thing in there is being called "Cheap" "beardy" or "imba" besides the lash of submission. Outside of that it's a big bag of overpriced weaponry, wargear, icons, squad leaders, and units(I'm looking at you, possessed, spawn, dreadnought.)

Also I don't think I've ever seen a "Versus" that included a renegade marine unit. Nor a thread saying "Help! Fighting a chaos marine army!"

And everyone here knows -exactly- why they churn out codex after codex very slowly and not in any great rush. All those beardy tournament players whose lives depend on it will sell off the current army of cheese(eldar) and pick up the newer, fancier army of cheese(spess mehrein).

(Serious S6 power weapons that strike at initiative? Wtf GW. Wtf.)

And the fact that you now have an abaddon-like marine that rerolls everything...that's....it's really just heartwrenching to every lil black heart that believed in chaos.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Chaos were generally equal to normal SM in prevoius editions but now a havoc squad fights with the same attacks as dedicated assault units, a troop choice has the same WS as any SM character bar the special ones, The hq's are better and cost less and chaos can have what 9 viable troop choices? SM have 2, one with now BS and WS 3. The main challenge I see with the new codex is trying to find a fair balance between the overly powerful elites and the necessary troop choices for objective holding. If it wasn't for troops being the only scoring units this codex wil be totally overpowered and to an extent it stil is but it still requires some bit of thought to field a usable and effective force....


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Lord Reevan said:


> Chaos were generally equal to normal SM in prevoius editions but now a havoc squad fights with the same attacks as dedicated assault units, a troop choice has the same WS as any SM character bar the special ones, The hq's are better and cost less and chaos can have what 9 viable troop choices? SM have 2, one with now BS and WS 3. The main challenge I see with the new codex is trying to find a fair balance between the overly powerful elites and the necessary troop choices for objective holding. If it wasn't for troops being the only scoring units this codex wil be totally overpowered and to an extent it stil is but it still requires some bit of thought to field a usable and effective force....


Lord reevan makes a valid point, the space marines are not more powerful, the power curve is in different parts of the army list.
it is easy to make the rookie mistake of looking at one or two units and their statline, or at the wargear they CAN have. The part that seems overlooked by the majority of those that whine about each and every new 'dex. is the cost, both in points and the opportunity costs that balances them out, combined with specialization, and or limited numbers.

Just because a unit might be able to do a lot of damage, it does not mean that 1) the damage will be enough, or 2) that their potential will be realized.


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

Son of mortarion said:


> Just because a unit might be able to do a lot of damage, it does not mean that 1) the damage will be enough, or 2) that their potential will be realized.


Given that what you said may be true. I offer this as a rebuke. Given enough time (maybe a month or 2 after the new codex's release?) all their potential _will_ be realized by one or more people. Undoubtedly, I'm sure they'll communicate it to fellow marine players and if they don't, their opponents sure will. Something along the lines of "If you take such and such with such and such, wraithlords= dead. Or did you know if you can manage to keep a daemon prince at around 48" he's toast with this cannon" or something like that. Ya get my point I think. Yes, strength isn't everything in this game. I just saw in a recent game, a chaos dreadnought survive 3 rounds of 2 railguns firing at him. Is that a likely event, no way in hell. The point here is that a strength 10 weapon that can nail you up to 72" (which is 1.5 times the length of the boards I play on and hit you at maximum strength that far out kind of nullifies a lot of things because in all _liklihood_ it will do major damage. This is a game of probabilities, not definites. So will all this new wargear and rules and such make the SM an extremely powerful force while the other armies wait in the wings to catch up? I'd be willing to bet on it. Like I said before though, I don't so much as have a problem with what the SM are actually getting, there's always a counter weapon/tactic for every weapon/tactic. It's more that SM were probably one of the last armies that needed an update for their codex and had the least amount of issues to address when compared with other armies. I think it's all just a big PR booster to get newcomers hooked into the game. 

When you think about it, it does make a bit of sense. New release of 5th ed coincides with a release of both a new starter set and new codex for one of the armies that's included in the starter set, giving said army an edge over other armies. What do a lot of newcomers buy? The starter set as it includes everything needed to well, start the game. And out of the two armies included (no matter which starter set really) do most people gravitate towards? The SM of course. Why? There's certainly a lot of fluff and such but if the newcomers are playing the game, then they see that the SM are a decent easy army to play and that they let them win the majority of the time. I doubt too many would continue with a hobby or game they continually lost at (excluding those that are in this hobby for the modeling/painting part for which all this rambling goes out the window). Therefore, why not make it seem at the time that the SM are this unstoppable force with a spanking new codex that'll keep more players continually buying things from GW? 

Remember, the SM are GW's golden boys. They're the big money makers as most people in this hobby/game have probably had or played at one point, an SM army. And with any sort of golden boy (or "golden thing" for that matter) you're not gonna treat it like crap. Usually most of your efforts are gonna go towards making the golden boy even more, well, golden.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

BloodAngelZeros said:


> Given that what you said may be true. I offer this as a rebuke. Given enough time (maybe a month or 2 after the new codex's release?) all their potential _will_ be realized by one or more people. Undoubtedly, I'm sure they'll communicate it to fellow marine players and if they don't, their opponents sure will. Something along the lines of "If you take such and such with such and such, wraithlords= dead. Or did you know if you can manage to keep a daemon prince at around 48" he's toast with this cannon" or something like that. Ya get my point I think. Yes, strength isn't everything in this game. I just saw in a recent game, a chaos dreadnought survive 3 rounds of 2 railguns firing at him. Is that a likely event, no way in hell. The point here is that a strength 10 weapon that can nail you up to 72" (which is 1.5 times the length of the boards I play on and hit you at maximum strength that far out kind of nullifies a lot of things because in all _liklihood_ it will do major damage. This is a game of probabilities, not definites. So will all this new wargear and rules and such make the SM an extremely powerful force while the other armies wait in the wings to catch up? I'd be willing to bet on it. Like I said before though, I don't so much as have a problem with what the SM are actually getting, there's always a counter weapon/tactic for every weapon/tactic. It's more that SM were probably one of the last armies that needed an update for their codex and had the least amount of issues to address when compared with other armies. I think it's all just a big PR booster to get newcomers hooked into the game.
> 
> When you think about it, it does make a bit of sense. New release of 5th ed coincides with a release of both a new starter set and new codex for one of the armies that's included in the starter set, giving said army an edge over other armies. What do a lot of newcomers buy? The starter set as it includes everything needed to well, start the game. And out of the two armies included (no matter which starter set really) do most people gravitate towards? The SM of course. Why? There's certainly a lot of fluff and such but if the newcomers are playing the game, then they see that the SM are a decent easy army to play and that they let them win the majority of the time. I doubt too many would continue with a hobby or game they continually lost at (excluding those that are in this hobby for the modeling/painting part for which all this rambling goes out the window). Therefore, why not make it seem at the time that the SM are this unstoppable force with a spanking new codex that'll keep more players continually buying things from GW?
> 
> Remember, the SM are GW's golden boys. They're the big money makers as most people in this hobby/game have probably had or played at one point, an SM army. And with any sort of golden boy (or "golden thing" for that matter) you're not gonna treat it like crap. Usually most of your efforts are gonna go towards making the golden boy even more, well, golden.


what I meant was that the unit will likely be eliminated before it can do the damage, not that munchkins might not realize that they can do the damage, I'm sorry for the bad wording, I have given myself a yellow card for bad use of pronouns.


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

Son of mortarion said:


> what I meant was that the unit will likely be eliminated before it can do the damage, not that munchkins might not realize that they can do the damage, I'm sorry for the bad wording, I have given myself a yellow card for bad use of pronouns.


Ahhh, yeah, in that case I can agree with you. Too many times do my heavy destroyers get wiped before they really do any real damage. But then again, if you can have this unit sitting way the hell back shooting all the way across the board at you at up to 72" (I don't know what kind of weapon it is or what LOS it needs) there's not much in the way of weaponry that comes close to even hitting it at an equal length so the only thing it has to worry about is deep striking units and if the SM unit is in cover/fortification, the deep strikers have to deploy a little ways away or else risk suffering the consequences of DSing into cover.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Lord Reevan said:


> Chaos were generally equal to normal SM in prevoius editions but now a havoc squad fights with the same attacks as dedicated assault units, a troop choice has the same WS as any SM character bar the special ones, The hq's are better and cost less and chaos can have what 9 viable troop choices? SM have 2, one with now BS and WS 3. The main challenge I see with the new codex is trying to find a fair balance between the overly powerful elites and the necessary troop choices for objective holding. If it wasn't for troops being the only scoring units this codex wil be totally overpowered and to an extent it stil is but it still requires some bit of thought to field a usable and effective force....


All those attacks are without any kind of power weapon(your dedicated assault marines only have two each? Not to mention any other armies dedicated assault troops would -laugh- at two normal attacks a peice) And that troop choice for a minimum squad costs more than the character by at least fourty points. And WS is nearly the worst skill in the game, to be honest. The hq's are worse. Take the chaos lord. He's superior to a castellian, but costs more, and his upgrades are more expensive. The sorceror is usually a one-trick pony unless we LOAD him down with points. And we have six troops. Nilla marines, cultists, and daemons(I think) spawn can't hold objectives. And again, we have specialists that don't do well in a changing environment. If we take one type and encounter something they can't deal with, we've sunk nearly 250 points into useless ablative wounds.

My main thing is, S6 power weapons are nearly -always- useful. While I can have a berserker with a ws of 5, it doesn't mean anything if he runs into a dreadnought(these are seeing more use in fifth) and with our TWENTY FIVE point powerfists, it's not feasible to actually arm anyone with them. Not to mention the mandatory "squad leader" upgrade needed to buy powertoys that usually sets us back 10-15 points.

So basically for a berserker....we have to spend fifty six points to put a powerfist into a squad JUST for the sole reason it won't be wiped out of existance by a dreadnought.

Meanwhile our loyalist buddies in the black templar need twenty nine points.


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## The_Pi (Mar 20, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> That's simply incorrect. The current chaos codex is weaker than last addition and I don't believe a single thing in there is being called "Cheap" "beardy" or "imba" besides the lash of submission. Outside of that it's a big bag of overpriced weaponry, wargear, icons, squad leaders, and units(I'm looking at you, possessed, spawn, dreadnought.)
> 
> Also I don't think I've ever seen a "Versus" that included a renegade marine unit. Nor a thread saying "Help! Fighting a chaos marine army!"
> 
> ...


I disagree. First, the power of the new codex resides in the cult forces being troops.

About the s6 power weapons, what about daemon weapons? And Demon prince? And both of them joined?

And about Calgar being abbaddon-ish... just because he is an eternal warrior, abby still can beat the crap out of Calgar single-handed. (Directly from my brain, so might be incorrect) +1d6 attacks at assault, s8, i6 I can't see calgar doing that.


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

Remove the stats please. Copyright violation I believe.


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## Nucleon (Aug 1, 2008)

definately sounds good to me, cant wait to get my hands on this, specially the honour guards:biggrin:


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Comparing black templars with chaos isn't that good an idea as they are in different versions of the game. With a 5th. ed marine army, BA, squad leaders are mandatory, powerfists also cost 25 points and against berzerkers they'd be hitting on 4s while the berzerkers will hit on 3s and that does mean a lot more. 
A basic captain on his own has ws5 and a 4+ inv. and is 100points and rarely is the inv. save used for me. and if the minimum cost of the unit is more it still has more attacks, ore wounds and the ability to fight more than one model at a time....

And I go with 9 troop choices as undivided, undivided with each mark, berzerkers, T sons, plague marines and emperors children each are a viable troop choice and that makes 9. if you can take lesser daemons then you have even more. 
Taking a squad that isn't suited to that type of game isn't a chaos only thing. it can also happen to imperial and eldar and tau and everything else.

And yes an assault squad has 1 base attack, plus the attack for two CC weapons, the exact same as a havoc squad.....


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

As to the whole arguement that the S6 powerweapons are over powered I would just point out that Grey Knight Terminators have been out since almost the beginning of 3rd edition and people have seen that they are not over powered..

WS5, +2 Str, at marine Inititiative, +1A for TDA, TDA saves, + Stormbolter, + Aegis, +Shrouding for what... 6 pts more than a regular terminator? And ANY imperial army could take upto 2 squads of them if they wanted (1HQ + 1 Elite).. so really this new unit is not overpowered by any means.


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## T.R.get (Jul 16, 2008)

I would pay that 6 points any day if my chaos terminators could get a boost like that.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

T.R.get said:


> I would pay that 6 points any day if my chaos terminators could get a boost like that.


blasphemer


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

The_Pi said:


> I disagree. First, the power of the new codex resides in the cult forces being troops.
> 
> About the s6 power weapons, what about daemon weapons? And Demon prince? And both of them joined?


Daemon weapons are a waste of points and have a 1/6th to 1/3rd chance of harming the user and not making any attacks. It's a nice option too for chaos lords. Unfortunately lords aren't point-effective.
And daemon prince is nice. But he can't take a daemon weapon. That'd be far too much daemon in the same place for this codex. He's our only worthwhile hq out of the standard, the special characters aren't bad either. Albeit Typhus, the new pirate guy(You know the one the codex is based around but nobody cared about? "I've got a flamethrower in my hand and nobody cares" pirate?) And lucius are way too pricey for what they do.




The_Pi said:


> And about Calgar being abbaddon-ish... just because he is an eternal warrior, abby still can beat the crap out of Calgar single-handed. (Directly from my brain, so might be incorrect) +1d6 attacks at assault, s8, i6 I can't see calgar doing that.


Difference being Calgar is now seemingly mandatory to play ultramarines the way you like them, and with his stats being incredible as they are, you'll be seeing him alot more. Meanwhile, abaddon doesn't fit into many chaos lists, either through fluff reasons or he's just too expensive. And I'd assume abaddon would have the edge 5/6th of the time and be utterly raped 1/6th of the turns they're in combat. Due to the daemon weapon.




Lord Reevan said:


> Comparing black templars with chaos isn't that good an idea as they are in different versions of the game. With a 5th. ed marine army, BA, squad leaders are mandatory, powerfists also cost 25 points and against berzerkers they'd be hitting on 4s while the berzerkers will hit on 3s and that does mean a lot more.


Unfortunately I don't have any other loyalist codex on me so the closest comparison I could draw was with templars. Also, I'd assume 'zerks cost more than loyalist marines, fivish points a head or so. And it does mean that 'zerks are better in close combat. Shame they'll never reach it with the outstanding choices for ranged combat. Also the fact that unless power-fist armed, 'zerks won't be able to do anything to the ironclad dread. And nothing past the first turn on most monstrous creatures.



Lord Reevan said:


> A basic captain on his own has ws5 and a 4+ inv. and is 100points and rarely is the inv. save used for me. and if the minimum cost of the unit is more it still has more attacks, ore wounds and the ability to fight more than one model at a time....


He comes STANDARD with 4+ invul!? For one hundred points? lol that's amazing. If a 50% chance to ignore anything short of a nightbringer or a titan isn't working for you, wargaming might not be in your best interest hahah. And just taking from the chaos marine codex, a minimum squad of bezerkers comes to 105 points, for the same cost you can get seven chaos marines. Normally the zerks come with 15 attacks at ws 5. The chaos marines get 14 attacks at ws 4.

Sounds like the normal marines don't have a chance in hell right? Well they wouldn't except for the fact that the 'zerks don't have any sort of long range game. They don't even have bolters. If you let a squad -completely- focused on CC get you in CC, you had it coming. Also 'zerks don't get any long range options beyond plasma pistols(I believe.)



Lord Reevan said:


> And I go with 9 troop choices as undivided, undivided with each mark, berzerkers, T sons, plague marines and emperors children each are a viable troop choice and that makes 9. if you can take lesser daemons then you have even more.


If you're going to call a squad completely different because of a peice of wargear, than this entire argument is stupid. From what I'm hearing in this edition, the basic marine will have quite a number of choices. Probably not the staggering armories of old, but still quite a number.

And you do realize that if we lose the banner, the effect is gone, right? Not just 'for that turn'. That effect is out of there. And with new wound allocation, it's gone fast now. Randomly fast.

They are not a completely different troop choice. And even if they were, marines at I5 isn't worth not having s6 power weapons. And 3+ invuls(which we can't get)




Lord Reevan said:


> Taking a squad that isn't suited to that type of game isn't a chaos only thing. it can also happen to imperial and eldar and tau and everything else.


Did I say it was chaos exclusive? My apologies, I meant that in the terms of imperium/chaos, our choices are much more exclusive. A land speeder with an assault cannon is going to do pretty well regaurdless of your opponent. A chaos dreadnought armed with a plasma cannon is basically going to suck against hordes and do decent against marines(Acursed scattering)

And eldar units are usually cheap enough to not be gamebreaking if they take the wrong one. If I bring plague marines against a nidzilla list, they're going to be smashed to a pulp, whereas harlequins will pretty much kill what needs killing.

Or to put it into troop terms, I take a squad of anti-meq Tsons against a horde of orks. An eldar player takes a squad of banshees against the same list
The tsons, at minimum would be... 152 points. Banshees are(to the best of my knowledge) 80 points.
While the tsons valiantly blast orks away with the same power as regular marines, the banshees slaughter those t-shirt saves in CC with higher initiative.
But at the end of the day, neither unit was made to do well against the orks, and both will most likely die. But you see my point, for the chaos commander, it's much more of a sting.



Lord Reevan said:


> And yes an assault squad has 1 base attack, plus the attack for two CC weapons, the exact same as a havoc squad.....


But I assume the assault squad can at least move 12" a turn and will more than likely have a power weapon or plasma pistol in it's ranks. Meanwhile the havocs should be lucky to have a squad leader, much less a powertoy of any kind. Also you're saying chaos is on par because we have skitzophrenic heavy weapons teams?

I didn't get a chance to quote the post about grey knights, but yes I knew they were s6 power weapons. But they were grey knights. If anyone should have "holy crap on a stick" gear like that, it's them. Hence the lack of complaining about that. 

All-in-all, I'm not trying to say chaos is garbage, I'm just saying that our advantages against the marines are dying off quickly without much in terms of marines being more balanced.(Although the assault cannon nerf was muchly appreciated)


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

I'm not saying that you're wrong lord waffles and this isn't aimed at you personally. Around the same time I posted that I had an arguement against a complete chaos powergamer so I was a bit riled.... Just marines were seriously outmatched in CC against their rivals. This now makes them some bit fairer In my opinion... chaos will always have lots of attacks by always having BP and CCW as well(bar Tsons) so loyalists will now have less attacks but with better chances of killing which I think makes it fairer.... Plus they probably cost a bucket load and would still be just as vulnerable to fire... And I hope the storm shield is untrue..... That's just making them crappy unstoppable....


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## The_Pi (Mar 20, 2008)

LordWaffles, I agree with the things you said about Calgar, a most of you said about Abbaddon, but since DA dex came out it seems that GW want more named HQs around, but they might be missing the shot and making them mandatory, as you said.

And about Daemon Weapons, I didn't know Princes can't have them but, c'mon, if we think in rolling ones we wouldn't play many things like plasmas no? feeling the risk on the dice is always funny, and that's what the game's about.


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## Godefroii (Jun 21, 2008)

Lord Reeven-Yes i agree that chaos always have better CC..but SM always have better shooting (plasma cannons almoust for everyone and assault cannons).Now SM have better CC(its ok for me-i got salamanders ) and still good shooting.And chaos..
lets face a fakt-berzerkers are now crap(yea -ok they are not that bad,they just cost to much compared to what they are able to do..),possesed are like always-to expensive and lesser daemons are just one big joke.so we are left with thermies(SM have them to) and daemon prince and greater daemon.One prince and one Gr.Daemon for whorste shooting 
I dont say that chaos is now S..t,but i say that everyone stop saying that "ohhhh..you are wrong -chaos is one big pack of great Close cobat units that kills everything"
The same thing for SM-they got better but they are not overpowered.Of course its not fair that chaos lose much things and SM got more ( its should be either that chaos lose something or SM gains something),but saying that either chaos is a crap or SM is overpowered is unthrue 
All this words are for all readers not for you Lord reevan.
p.s.Sorry for my english-i learn from lobotomised tyranid


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Godefroii, You make a very good point but I slightly disagree. HAving access to plasma cannons and assault cannons are good but SM don't have access to walking battlecannons, blastmasters and other ranged powers like lash and gift of chaos So I don't think Sm were better at shooting. Equal in a way yes but not better... But this is going too far off topic I think So i'm going to stop the comparisons as this stuff isn't 100% truth and guaranteed....


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## Farseer Beltiac (Jul 11, 2008)

It looks pretty cool !!! Have you seen the Assault Marine picture with the swords and stuff. I had sadly thought up of the swords thing for jump troops like a year ago. I always hate it when this happens.

Ummm...call me stupid, but didn't they just redo the Marine like back in 2004??? With the Space marines Codex or am I wrong?


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## Truth Bearer (Jul 30, 2008)

Space Marines are the bread and butter of Warhammer 40k. So yes, they just recently got an update... but now with 5th edition out, they now require another.


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## Dessel_Ordo (Jul 28, 2008)

granted, a lot of this new an shiny stuff is nice... but for every new shiny, SM players lose something

New Dreadnaughts... no more chapter traits (GW's way of saying ":fuck:Bitch paint your marines blue!!!)

New I.C.'s... at least 5 are for Ultras, 1, maybe 2 for the rest of the Chapters GW made up (once again, GW saying ":fuck:Bitch paint your marines Blue!!!)

New Elite choices and Psyker powers... how much do you wanna bet that they are gonna get the same issue that chaos has, usefull... but its too god-damned expensive to have anything more than a 1 trick pony

My point is, SM are losing some really cool and useful stuff, all the flavor that Space Marines could have, the space the fluff leaves for making your own chapter gets crushed out of existence by GW's obbsession with the smurfs... with the new dex, it doesnt matter if I write my own fluff, name all my models... paint them an original and cool colour scheme, they are green smurfs, or, I can take the 1 Salamander IC (being a Salamander successor chapter that is the only one that makes sense)

Also, without traits, it will become a hell of a lot easier to figure out how to counter marines... with the traits, you dont really know how many you will face. Ironside Dread is impressive, but you only have to take 3 max... if traits were around there is that bit of the unkown, that oh-shit, he took "Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients" now there are 6. Killing high AV units is nothing new, in fact, Ironside will go down easier than a Land Raider, which other players have been dealing with for years and years, and there are still 3 max. period. end of story. That also means no other Elites, which means none of the crazy melee stuff. bust out your lascannons, missile/rocket launchers, auto-cannons ect and clean house.

And yes, some of the IC's will let you change what counts as what, but stuff still gets removed from your lis when you do that, IC's are only for larger(ish) games, and HQ's still deploy first, in fact, you can tell EXACTLY what will be different about this marine plyer, simply by "admiring" his army some before the game... if you see white scars, assume the bike commander, slalmandrs, hammers and fire based weapons.

Maybe I'm just bitter because I hate smurfs and want to be original, and GW is trying to push Marine players like me out the door; brain wash us all into smurfs; or at least have us crammed up into a corner where they can ignore us (like Wolves, Crons, and all the other neglected lists)

however, these are still all just RUMORS, and we all know how fickle and apt to change that those are, especially rumors about what GW is doing with its new Dexes and Rulebooks.

so cheer up, half this is prob. bullshit and will be a non-issue, and we will all feel like dumbass bastards for making such a big fukin deal about it.


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## Spot The Grot (Jul 15, 2008)

i know gonna be sort of the same as chaos .. GW seem to pick one chapter and want everyone to do it


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## khorneflake (Jul 11, 2008)

yea, why is it always ultramarines, however i think they do that because you can easily do the ultramarines. you always need an example.:grin:


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## Vashtek (Nov 2, 2007)

I predict the cool stuff such as vet marines, techmarines and land raider variants cost a bunch of points and never see play except in the hands of 'friendly' player and/or 'character' armies. Tactical squads will be where the space marine codex lives or dies.


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## Trigger (Mar 12, 2008)

Now, its only logical to release the Codex Codex first, its what most people play. Then the specialist marine books will follow. I think what GW is saying is, "look, a Chapter will have between 8 and 10 Dreadnoughts maximum, who are only reanimated at times of desperate need, and you think that they will wake up 6 of them to fight a skirmish with some Traitor Guard?, No they won't". The same with the other traits. Some of them skewed the chapter so off tangent it was unreal. Some of them were good, but whats wrong with wiping the slate clean?


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

many of the arguments complaining about the loss of traits
(* NOT*directed at anyone on this site, also including ones i have heard at game shops) are only 'fluff" arguments at surface level. if your plan requires taking a larger proportion of "elite' or "special" units than normally allowed, allowing them to be taken will not fix your problems with winning.
Games workshop is removing traits for the same reason the wraithlord had rules making a farseer or warlock necessary reinstated, it was too cheap by itself, but increasing the points cost was also inappropriate.

Remember, until 4e, the majority of sm armies had no difference beyond their color scheme, the only chapters that had different lists were da, ba, bt, and sw.

this was because the rest were easily represented by the options that the player took. there is no need to have a rule to decide not to take a unit. 

this all having been said, i think that there needs to be codices for all of the first founding chapters. I also think that all of the major ig regments deserve codices.


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## Canadish (Jun 17, 2008)

Son of mortarion said:


> many of the arguments complaining about the loss of traits
> (* NOT*directed at anyone on this site, also including ones i have heard at game shops) are only 'fluff" arguments at surface level. if your plan requires taking a larger proportion of "elite' or "special" units than normally allowed, allowing them to be taken will not fix your problems with winning.
> Games workshop is removing traits for the same reason the wraithlord had rules making a farseer or warlock necessary reinstated, it was too cheap by itself, but increasing the points cost was also inappropriate


Aye a fair point. Yet what about those of us who made conversions to show these traits? I have squads of Blood Ravens with knifes on their bolters to show "True Grit" and "Counter attack". Now they look tough but are no better then the other marines. Even little rules that were useless or a disadvantage like "stubborn" are now gone, which takes away the flavor of armies.
I agree rules such as the one that give you 6 dreads may be a bit much and exploitable by power gamers. 
Besides, taking away peoples options is always a stepbackwards. End of.

Btw Thanks for putting forward a great counter argument to a point I would normally be all aboard with. You've made me think harder k:

Cheers 
Canadish


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Canadish said:


> Aye a fair point. Yet what about those of us who made conversions to show these traits? I have squads of Blood Ravens with knifes on their bolters to show "True Grit" and "Counter attack". Now they look tough but are no better then the other marines. Even little rules that were useless or a disadvantage like "stubborn" are now gone, which takes away the flavor of armies.
> I agree rules such as the one that give you 6 dreads may be a bit much and exploitable by power gamers.
> Besides, taking away peoples options is always a stepbackwards. End of.
> 
> ...


I have been adding the bayonet purely because it looks cool, and gives me a reason to believe that they were armed with at least one ccw.
i agree that removing options is lame, but if those options are being abused routinely, they need to be replaced. my biggest problem with traits was a few of the disadvantages were advantageous to a creative player.
I think the options will be there, but not as special rules, but as options on the foc and in the wargear list.


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## beenburned (May 15, 2008)

Perhaps we'll see things like we got with the eldar, like compromises to allow the previous craftworld rules to remain, but yeah, as said, just included in the wargear. Eg. the upgrade to pathfinders or the option to take wraithguard as troops.


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## Canadish (Jun 17, 2008)

Son of mortarion said:


> I have been adding the bayonet purely because it looks cool, and gives me a reason to believe that they were armed with at least one ccw.
> i agree that removing options is lame, but if those options are being abused routinely, they need to be replaced. my biggest problem with traits was a few of the disadvantages were advantageous to a creative player.
> I think the options will be there, but not as special rules, but as options on the foc and in the wargear list.


Were they being abused? None of the traits seemed particular over powered, just subtle gestures toward the ideals of the chapters. 
Sure, some players may pick and choose some benificial triats for their own custom army, but I've never heard horror stories of broken marine armies. :crazy:

Now only the First founding chapters can have any variation, smaller armies and custom ones are kind left....well....smurfed. And smurfs are dull. 

Canadish


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Example of broken armies through traits. 
An armu that has no bikes land speeders. Takes heed the wisdom and no mercy no respite. Now they lost nothing but have 6 dreads and assault marines with furious charge. 
That's how armies get broken. They take disadvantages that mean nothing to them. Like taking no librarians or allies when thewy don't have them in their collection. Traits were easy to manipulate to powergaming lists.... IF they made the traits stricter it might work but What they're doing nowe is probably the easiest way to do it.....


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

just looked at bell of lost souls saw that the 'relic blade were 2 handed weapons
and the honor guard is restricted to 0-1 unless you take marneus calgar, then you can take 3.

this means that the models with honor blades will only receive bonus attacks for charging, and will be in limited numbers.


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## Horus' Left Elbow (Aug 1, 2008)

Really looking forward to the new marines, might hold off 40K till then hehe - AoBR box set looks awesome too. Gogo SM buff (pardon my MMO speak :grin

Gonna get myself a Master of the Forge and outdo my friend's Tau in max range firepower. Then again, I might need a couple of marines to take the hits for him but ahh well, it's worth it for a really cool model xD


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## Judas Masias (Jun 5, 2008)

*More Codex Space Marines news from BOLS*

Hi guys. Here are a few more morsels from some agents in the know:

Honour Guard
Honour Guard (available to Chapter Master's only) have artificer armour, bolters, bolt pistols, grenades, and power weapons. They can replace their power weapons with relic blades (S:6, two-handed power weapons) and also have various other options such as storm shields (3+ invulnerable save against all attacks) and auxillary grenade launchers (a 12” grenade launcher that can be fired in addition to any other weapon each and every turn). Marneus Calgar allows the player to field three squads of Honour Guard instead than the standard one squad.

Tabletop Performance
Combat Tactics
Playing against this in an actual game was not bad as you can still attempt to sweep the marines (as with ATSKNF, they take wounds as if they are fearless if caught). Every time my marine opponent tried it my nasty and quick assault units caught them, and Combat Tactics only forced him to take more armour saves. If the marines had been successful more often I may have had a different opinion on Combat Tactics.

ATSKNF
This has changed a little. Marines automatically rally at the begining of their turn and can act normally (they do not count as moving, and don't get the 3" consolidate). They still can't rally if an enemy is within 6". Other than that, it's the exact same.

General Gameplay Thoughts
Overall, the game felt like I was playing a codex marine list. I'm not saying that simply because my opponent wasn't useing any of the new codex's flashy new units, but the army played like marines should. Perhaps if I get whacked by some of those new units I'll change my opinion.

FAQs
When the marine codex comes out, GW will release updated FAQs for the DA, BA and BT list making some of the changes carry over to them. ATSKNF is a good candidate for this as it is written much more cleanly in the new codex.


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## T.R.get (Jul 16, 2008)

Everything sounds very very powerful... but then when you think about it if you get a Sargent base 100 and you take them with normal marines, small scale games will not have many units at all, 4+ inv or not.


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## AzraelJahannam (Jun 28, 2008)

I like the Honour Guard... though I'd better be able to attach my Librarian to it.... Otherwise, it just seems to be a lot more of GW pumping up and dumbing down space marines for those damn 12 year olds that no one wants to see in the store anyways. And all of us who play Space Marines fairly and balanced get an auto-bad rap because of the idiot children who abuse the rules, and on top of that, our fluffy unique trait armies get bent over the gaming table and double tapped with 6 inch fleshborers if you know what I mean.

P.S. Why the F*CK will vanilla marines suddenly have better honor guards than the F*CKING Blood Angels!? Blood Angels practically invented bitch slapping at close range.


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## Dessel_Ordo (Jul 28, 2008)

AzraelJahannam said:


> I like the Honour Guard... though I'd better be able to attach my Librarian to it.... Otherwise, it just seems to be a lot more of GW pumping up and dumbing down space marines for those damn 12 year olds that no one wants to see in the store anyways. And all of us who play Space Marines fairly and balanced get an auto-bad rap because of the idiot children who abuse the rules, and on top of that, our fluffy unique trait armies get bent over the gaming table and double tapped with 6 inch fleshborers if you know what I mean.
> 
> P.S. Why the F*CK will vanilla marines suddenly have better honor guards than the F*CKING Blood Angels!? Blood Angels practically invented bitch slapping at close range.


I heartilly agree.

its those same damned 12 year olds that mean we will never get a 40k movie, and if we do, it will do no justice to the literature/fluff/game


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

I hope they include the honour guard updates in the BA FAQ.... They did have some of the best honour guards before everyone else.... And they better be gettnig that Redeemer(BAAL) land raider......


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Any idea when this is coming out for sale or is it already?


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## Maximus (Mar 9, 2008)

AFAIK somewhen in november.

A few weeks ago I was talking to a friend of mine about the new marine 'dex (he plays DA) and he made an interesting point:
All those neat little things like vanguard, sternguard, relic blades and so on are certainly going to cost a few points, I would estimate about 300-400 pts for a fully equipped honor guard. If I then look at my Guard army I start thinking "what happens if I put a battle/demolisher cannon round on top of them?"
The answer is easy: they die since there is nothing like invulnerable save rumored for them. And even if they come into assault and tear a squad of mine apart, so f***ing what? I have five more squads left and they are now going to blast the nasty little marines back to where they came from.
And I can just repeat what was said already: wait until you see it, then play a few games with/against the new marines and then make your opinion.


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## Mr Flibble (Jun 17, 2008)

Isn't codex out 4th October?


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Maximus said:


> AFAIK somewhen in november.
> 
> A few weeks ago I was talking to a friend of mine about the new marine 'dex (he plays DA) and he made an interesting point:
> All those neat little things like vanguard, sternguard, relic blades and so on are certainly going to cost a few points, I would estimate about 300-400 pts for a fully equipped honor guard. If I then look at my Guard army I start thinking "what happens if I put a battle/demolisher cannon round on top of them?"
> ...


It's said they'll have 3+ invulnerable.(Or the option thereof)

That was GW just trying to fuck with everyone who had a bassie or power weapon. "Kill OUR money makers will you?"

And not all of us have units insignificant enough to have five troop choices in a competitive 1500 game that can fight s6 power weapons and 3+ invulnerable saves.

Why would GW make marines overpriced? The going trend is "more models" not less. It's a business.

Also if they choose not to bring them, all they have to do is put them in a rhino, or have another unit in front of them to get some tasty obscure saves. (Unless you want to take indirect fire and toss another die into that scatter)


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## Lord Azreal (Jun 28, 2008)

i agree sir! like honour guard but they shouldnt be better than the long established HG. hate to be negative also but the small children making up their own rules annoys me...and the fact they talk to much... with squeaky voices... but thats by the by lol. bring back traits, loose vanilla marines!

lord Azreal, master of the hunter chapter


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

the relic blades cannot be put with storm shields as the swords are two handed and the shield requires a hand to be used.... And I seriously doubt it would be a 3+ for shooting and assault..... That would mean it's a better hand held iron halo so it should cost soemthing around 60 points....... It sounds too over powered to be real.....


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## Truth Bearer (Jul 30, 2008)

Then again, perhaps they are doing something with the Iron Halo as well? Who knows. All I know is that I really want this damned Codex *now*!


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## NeckbeardEpidemic (Aug 4, 2008)

Chapter's that had your own codex welcome to what we csm have had to deal with after 4th ed. Instead of having your own unique abilities that diversified your chapter from your fellows you might as well just choose the generic (smurf for sm, black legion or the red corsairs which the entire 4th ed dex was basically one big ad for for the csm) because lord knows your army is probably the same as them now anyway but with crappier troop choices to fit the fluff.
For both sm and csm I seriously hope gw gives thought to maybe promoting a little diversity with seperate dexs for every first founding chapter (both sides of the heresy) or at least the heavily played ones.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Lord Reevan said:


> the relic blades cannot be put with storm shields as the swords are two handed and the shield requires a hand to be used.... And I seriously doubt it would be a 3+ for shooting and assault..... That would mean it's a better hand held iron halo so it should cost soemthing around 60 points....... It sounds too over powered to be real.....


It said earlier that it's for shooting and assault, and the squad can mix between the weapons.

Besides, these are -marines-. I'm sure it'll be like twenty points or so. We've gotta sell those models you know.

And I'm sincerely hoping the other marine codexes don't get up to speed when the dex comes out. Not to be bitter over the chaos codex sucking eggs, but we'll have even more of a push to put out better codexes the first time rather than much later faqs.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

I've heard from more than one reliable source that they can't use both and Honestly I'm really sceptical about the rumours here..... every rumour that comes out that's apparently official is changed before the actual release..... This could all be a load of poop


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## Vanchet (Feb 28, 2008)

I wanted some drop pods and something Short ranged fighters and this comes...AWESOME!!!


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## Underground Heretic (Aug 9, 2008)

does anyone think this might be carried over to the Dark Angels and Templar?


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## Judas Masias (Jun 5, 2008)

More tidbits emerge from our friends at BOLS. This time we hear about Command Squads and Librarian powers...

Command Squads


Command Squads may only be taken for Captains (one per Captain).
There is no sergeant option as the entire squad are veterans.
The Company Champion is an optional upgrade character. The basic squad is 4 veterans and 1 Apothecary. 
Basic weapons are chainswords and either bolters or pistols.
Any squadmember can replace his pistol or sword with: storm bolter, flamer, plasma gun, meltagun, combi-weapon, power sword, powerfist, lightning claw, or thunder hammer. Pistol may be replaced with a plasma pistol. Melta bombs and storm shields can be taken by anyone.
The squad may be upgraded to ride bikes.

Librarians
Nine psychic powers:

Avenger: essentially an AP3 heavy flamer
Force Dome: 5+ invulnerable for the librarian and squad until the end of next player turn
Gate of Infinity: librarian and squad Deep Strike back within 24" but with a minor risk...
Machine Curse: shooting attack causing a Glancing Hit on 1 vehicle within 24"
Might of the Ancients: Librarian gains strength 6 and rolls 2d6 armour penetration
Null Zone: all enemy units within 24" re-roll successul invulnerable saves for rest of player turn
Smite: 12" range, assault 4 St4 AP2
Quickening: gains Fleet and Initiative 10
Vortex of Doom: 12" St10 AP1 Heavy1 Blast; failed test results in the blast being centered on the librarian without scatter.

~Those powers seem really streamlined compared to the existing ones, and are a combination of many of the old abilities along with a few new ones. As for the command squads, we have heard from other sources that the stormshields listed in an earlier post as options for honor guard are only for command squads. Thoughts guys?


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

Those librarian powers look really interesting. 

Nice find.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

I like the sound of them.... Makes libarians even more interesting which is always good... they were always referred to as a kinf of unecessary HQ..... I love them though....:biggrin:


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## Truth Bearer (Jul 30, 2008)

My Librarian likes the sound of a lot of those... >


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## Da Red Paintjob Grot (May 6, 2008)

BloodAngelZeros said:


> "Well, we're immune to all your weapons, tactics and we've got a billion ships in orbit ready to blow you off the face of this planet. AND if that's not enough, we have a weapon that defies logic! Yes that's right. You thought bullets slowed down as they travelled further didn't you? Well not this one right here. Nosiree. It uses magical farts and pixie dust to hit you harder the further you are from us! Let the tau try and do THAT with one of their railguns! But wait! There's more! We've also got this neat-o-terrific gun that shoots rocks at you! No no, these rocks won't hurt you ya silly goose. We made these rocks sticky, all coated in honey and such. so now when they hit ya they'll bog ya down and make it harder for ya to move!"


OH. MY. FUCKING. GOD. I fell off the chair reading that...... :laugh:

Edit: I have read the lastr few pages and I BLOODY HATE THOSE 12 YEAR OLDS!!! I know i'm only 14, but im cynical enough to hang with the nerdy men who have no lives  and i'm glad i can!


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## Truth Bearer (Jul 30, 2008)

Well... if you already know how to properly use the word cynical, I fear for the future of this world... Thank god you can never become President.


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## Canadish (Jun 17, 2008)

Truth Bearer said:


> Well... if you already know how to properly use the word cynical, I fear for the future of this world... Thank god you can never become President.


The boy shows that he's smart enough to use a "complex" word and your worrying? Geez...whats G. Bush done to all you Yanks.....intelligence is a bad thing now? :grin:

Canadish


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Canadish said:


> The boy shows that he's smart enough to use a "complex" word and your worrying? Geez...whats G. Bush done to all you Yanks.....intelligence is a bad thing now? :grin:
> 
> Canadish


wasn't bush, this has been happening for a while now, ever since educators became more concerned about 'self esteem' than making sure the kids learned something.

i think truth bearer was commenting on a 14 year old being "cynical," and arare of it.


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## Canadish (Jun 17, 2008)

Son of mortarion said:


> wasn't bush, this has been happening for a while now, ever since educators became more concerned about 'self esteem' than making sure the kids learned something.
> 
> i think truth bearer was commenting on a 14 year old being "cynical," and arare of it.


Aye, I know about all the shite thats going on with the education system. It deeply scares me. Worse thing is its coming over the pond as well.
Welcome to the 51st state folks.....

And I did get what he was saying, I just had to have a dig 

Anyway, on-topic!

Some of these rules are insane! Looks like us Spacemarines will be dominating the battlefields of the 40k for some time if its all true. :shok:
Gotta stock up on stormshields! :grin:

Regards,
Canadish


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Canadish said:


> Aye, I know about all the shite thats going on with the education system. It deeply scares me. Worse thing is its coming over the pond as well.
> Welcome to the 51st state folks.....
> 
> 
> ...


fair enough, just wanted blame where it was deserved. 

I think that GW is trying to give players what they want, and balancing it by the best restriction I know of : POINTS.

If storm shields give a 3+ invulnerable, they will be expensive, limited to certain troop types, and require the model equipped with it to forego the extra attack for an additional ccw. Remember, even though space marine players will be spoiled for choices they cannot take all of them, except in games of apocalypse, where that will not be any serious advantage.

As an aside, the fluff does state that space marines are supposed to be some of the absolutely best warriors in the 40k universe, on par with exarchs.

Hopefully the "hate" for space marines will drive players to bring their games up another level, and the benefits space marines receive will be negated during gameplay.k:


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## Canadish (Jun 17, 2008)

Son of mortarion said:


> I think that GW is trying to give players what they want, and balancing it by the best restriction I know of : POINTS.


Well said. I like that Space Marines are becoming harder, more in line with the fluff, and costing more points (Well....I hope they cost more). 
I imagine they are still gonna be fairly cheap though. Marines are never overpowered....but they are always one of the stronger armies. Its the law. :grin:

Canadish


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## Death 0F Angels (Feb 27, 2008)

Son of mortarion said:


> wasn't bush, this has been happening for a while now, ever since educators became more concerned about 'self esteem' than making sure the kids learned something.
> 
> i think truth bearer was commenting on a 14 year old being "cynical," and arare of it.


Off subject but i just had to say that statement is worded perfectly. I completly agree.


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## Cards344 (Jun 16, 2008)

I am thinking of maybe doing Dark Angels. Will their be new rules for them in the new codex make the old codex obsolite, Or will the Dark Angels book along with Blood Angels and Black Templat still be good?


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

It's been said that Each seperate codex is getting an FAQ to get a lot of these things....


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## julio d (Apr 20, 2008)

stupid questio, but where are the cahplains??? :O????? ??? It's space marines, they can't function without dudes with skull helmets amking them be less sloppy and charge... so I state again wheres chappies??? ???


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## the cabbage (Dec 29, 2006)

My winter is now officially full.

Thirty chaos marines and three land raiders to go and now a new loyalist army!

Please no new models or codices until easter!!


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## Dessel_Ordo (Jul 28, 2008)

... remember what everyone was saying up until the new SM stuff started to get released?
"OMFG orks are now over-powered and unstoppable... TO MANY MODELS!!!... cant be beat..." and then the stuff in the new SM dex got released and tossed to the wayside as to much, now the SM have to much and are oped.

I was on BoLS and if even half of the stuff about half of the new units is true... they will be.

...Then the new DE codex comes out... and they seem over-powered, and nuking futs... until the next dex comes out. ect ect ect.

I'm thinking of 5ed codexes like a big "super-size me!"... and every1 gets it.

I'm betting that by the time all the 5ed codexes are out, all of us are gonna feel like dumbasses for freakin out so much, as everyone will finally be... "balanced" (*gasps in shock*)


off topic, yea, I hate how the over-protective media/educators are over-sheltering jids and trying to make failing feel good to them. I figure that if kids dont learn how to cope young... they end up going postal sometime before age 40. :fuck: liberal media!!!!!


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

julio d said:


> stupid questio, but where are the cahplains??? :O????? ??? It's space marines, they can't function without dudes with skull helmets amking them be less sloppy and charge... so I state again wheres chappies??? ???


tjhere still there, most likely with the abilities from 4e, see jezlad's post on the compilation thread, it is there, chapter masters and captains just grab attention.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Been out of the game for a while, but after recently reading battle of the abyss i'm back. No traits anymore? Does this mean space marines have become as codex as chaos space marines? You can't base your army around a specific chapter anymore?


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Been out of the game for a while, but after recently reading battle of the abyss i'm back. No traits anymore? Does this mean space marines have become as codex as chaos space marines? You can't base your army around a specific chapter anymore?


you can, you just do not gain advantage or disadvantage for doing so.


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

> No traits anymore? Does this mean space marines have become as codex as chaos space marines?


Well, you can pick a special character in order to replace 'Combat Doctrines'. 
Shrike of the Ravenguard gives you Fleet, Pedro Cantor of the Crimson Fists gives you Stubborn, etc.

Not to mention that it seems unlikely that you can cram much of the new special stuff in smaller lists - especially with the emphasis on troops in the 5th edition.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

My fists have always been orientated around loads of standard marines, so shouldn't be a problem for me.


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## spike12225 (Aug 21, 2008)

i think storm shields are bit over done not complaining with 5 termies with thunder hammer storm shields


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## bishop5 (Jan 28, 2008)

I've read/heard somewhere that Razorbacks are getting loads of new weapon options, including the old-school Lascannon/Twin Plasmagun and a twin-linked Assault Cannon variant... 

.. does anybody else find that fairly... sexual? :no:


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## Captain Roy (Feb 6, 2008)

I heard about the new razorbacks at games day in baltimore this 
year. I'm still can't wait for the space marine goodies for my
army :biggrin:


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

For new model stats check the back of the rulebook. Honour guard all have 2+ armour, the champion is WS5 and the librarian and chappy are slightly dulled down....


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

librarian and chappy have 2a and 2w which is naf


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## LeeHarvey (Jul 25, 2008)

I agree with all of you who said Space Marines don't need a new codex. Why doesn't GW pay attention to the Armies that are still using 3rd edition rules?! 

Using Special Characters to replace the trait system seems like it was designed for nothing more than to sell models (which by the way are going to be metal and conveniently coincide with a 25% price increase on those items), what if somebody doesn't want to make one of the GW created Chapters that the IC's are meant for? I am not thrilled with the loss of the trait system, in fact I'm quite pissed off about that. 

Also the fact that you need to take a full ten men to purchase a special or a heavy weapon. My army is based around smaller infantry units and now I'm going to have to go and buy even more models (which I'm sure was GW's real motivation behind the change) just to make my army legal. 

And yes, I think they are grossly OPing the army list. 

On another note, has anybody noticed the Army lists in the back of the new rulebook? In the Space Marine list the Chaplain has new stats that are really no better than a standard space marine with the exception of him having 2 wounds. Explain to me how the Spiritual Leader of the chapter, a guy with supposedly vast combat experience and unshakable faith in his cause, doesn't have the Weapon and ballistic skills or the initiative that all of that experience would give him? 

The things that games workshop does makes me angrier every day. One day they are going to wake up and realize they have alienated their fanbase and they wont have any customers other than little kids who buy models with the allowance their parents give them. I don't think their wallets will be swelling quite so quickly then.


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

I agree totally LeeHarvey It make me sick about the Chaplain uke::alcoholic:


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## Brother Strife (Jun 5, 2008)

I have played since RT therefore I have been through 5 revamps of the game with new rules, armies, models, etc. It is what it is. We will have to deal with it. May of us have delt with it over and over and over. Getting upset isn't going to do anything really. We will have to adapt or take our toy solders and go home. Untill you get the codex in hand and read it, getting upset is a wasted energy. Things may look great on paper stat wise but we don't know that cost of the units yet etc. Heck I miss 2nd, I loved overwatch, how close combat was done, and how the eldar runic powers owned. But alas a new rules, new codex and the eldar got nerfed......I still love the game and moved on. After all it is just toy solders.


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## madmadpissed (Aug 24, 2008)

squeek said:


> That is fantastic news, stupid hoods!


Why, they never fucking work against the one army you need them for anyway, the goddamn eldar. Either its my bad luck or physic hoods just suck, so why make them worse?


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## madmadpissed (Aug 24, 2008)

BloodAngelZeros said:


> It all seems to me that SM are now wayyy overpowered. Free heavy weapons with a full squad? WTF is that? So you HAVE to take more troops (which oh by the way, will be the only units able to hold objectives. So hey, guess what, SM get to kill two birds with one stone.) in order to get these free weapons. Also great to know I can get nailed by a high strength Conversion Beamer on my first turn. Storm shields giving an invulnerable 3+ to both shooting AND assault attacks? Again, WTF is that? The nightbringer, which is supposed to be the embodinment of a god only gets a 4+ invulnerable save (and no, i'm not saying it should be better, I'm saying that if a god can't block attack better than a 4+ how can a stupid little shield?).
> 
> 1) storm shields = 4+ invuln from shooting only, where did you hear 3+ from all attacks?
> 
> ...


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## madmadpissed (Aug 24, 2008)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> I have no idea...
> Another thing: I rekon blast weapons shopuld have a negative modifier on cover, sure a flamer allows no cover, but its hard to use cover when its being destroyed as well.


agreement, amount of times i found myself wondering why a giant ball of plasma can't kill 3 orcs hiding behind a corragated wall is unfathomable


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## madmadpissed (Aug 24, 2008)

bl0203 said:


> Remember guys, a lot of this stuff is rumors (I hope). Look back three-five months ago when we heard all the horrible 5th Ed stuff. Now the new rules set wasn't as bad as we all thought it would be, or was it?:grin: Its kinda of funny to hear every one run around screaming "The Sky is falling!!!" :laugh:
> 
> I'm hoping it won't be as bad as every one is saying its going to be!!! We just need to roll with the punches. :victory:


are you kidding? the new rule book is fucking retarded. it shouldn't have even come out, they barely changed a fucking thing. it wad just an Easy way to earn an extra 70 bucks a player for GW.


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## madmadpissed (Aug 24, 2008)

Brother Strife said:


> I have played since RT therefore I have been through 5 revamps of the game with new rules, armies, models, etc. It is what it is. We will have to deal with it. May of us have delt with it over and over and over. Getting upset isn't going to do anything really. We will have to adapt or take our toy solders and go home. Untill you get the codex in hand and read it, getting upset is a wasted energy. Things may look great on paper stat wise but we don't know that cost of the units yet etc. Heck I miss 2nd, I loved overwatch, how close combat was done, and how the eldar runic powers owned. But alas a new rules, new codex and the eldar got nerfed......I still love the game and moved on. After all it is just toy solders.


ya, but these toy soldiers cost an extra fucking 5 dollars every fucking month. I remeber when a SM squad was 35 bucks, what are they now, 50?


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## madmadpissed (Aug 24, 2008)

EndangeredHuman said:


> Yeah, it's definatly not as good as the current edition. But I don't think it's horrble, personally. It's a damn sight better than the earlier editions! *Shudder*


what you din't like the crimson fist cover, i thought that one wuz prety kick ass compared to the others of its time, Eldar stand around ad do dick codex cover>


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## madmadpissed (Aug 24, 2008)

SPYDeR13 said:


> As for people saying to chill out that other armies will be brought into line with this codex is crap and they know it. I mean how long have the Dark Eldar been waiting to be brought up to speed with everyone else? Or the damned Space Wolves?


GW is a business, and buissness only spend money on things that they will sell.

shit load of SM players, not alot of DE players. It's fucking simple people.


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## Meleemadness (Jul 12, 2008)

Hmmm, can anyone take sternguard or just Ultra Marines? 

I am looking to make a Raven Guard army and wanted troops in drop pods but the sternguard would be nice too....and some new veteran assault squad.

It appears there are too many selections for each troop type to have one of each...I wish i could give up my heavy support in favor or an elite and assault..


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## Wrath of Khaine (Dec 29, 2006)

All the special characters and units can be used by any loyal marine chapter. That's a big benefit of the new guys.


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## swntzu (Dec 25, 2007)

Meleemadness said:


> Hmmm, can anyone take sternguard or just Ultra Marines?


Why would they be Ultramarine specific? There's nothing to say that they are.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

madmadpissed said:


> GW is a business, and buisness only spend money on things that they will sell.
> 
> shit load of SM players, not alot of DE players. It's fucking simple people.


They'll update the marine codex AGAIN before any other army gets any new anything.

I saw it on google. It must be true.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> I saw it on google. It must be true.


This is the gospel according to google. Amen:biggrin:

There has been increasing activity for Dark eldar though.... the new artwork in the rulebook was originally design sketches for new warriors and new fluff for the codex.... So it might be closer than people think.... I hope anyway... I've always liked Dark eldar...


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## LeeHarvey (Jul 25, 2008)

Wrath of Khaine said:


> All the special characters and units can be used by any loyal marine chapter. That's a big benefit of the new guys.


 Now don't get me wrong here, it's cool that you can use the special characters with any chapter but, doesn't that kind of ruin the uniqueness of the Characters and the Chapters they belong to? It doesn't make sense to me that, let's say Marneus Calgar, is going to lead a force of Space Wolves.(Just an example, I don't know if the new rules for good ole' Marneus will allow that.)

I know that you can play with them and just call them by a different name but still, most if not all of those special character models will have chapter specific iconography molded right on. That's going to be a problem for players without much conversion experience. 

I think they know that a lot of people are angry about the loss of the Chapter trait system and they did this to try and appease those said players.
Personally I think it was a strange decision on GW's part and I don't think that giving a bunch of new special characters will make up for the fact that they have removed the ability to really personalize your army.


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Hmm I only just got to have a look at the local shops copy of the Dex the other day.

Lots of goodies for SM players making them a very nasty prospect.

Its a bit upsetting to think that the Chaos dex was nerfed so much to stop powergaming and then this pops up allowing so much. 

Smurfs will be very popular but expect to see alot of Salamanders in competative games.

The book itself is very nice and is up to the thickness of the better Second Edition books.

So SM players break out the beards everybody else get your cheese knife ready.:laugh:


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

Im sorry, but I cannot handle the amount of bitching about the new SM codex. Sure, its powerful now, but can everyone just WAIT for the other codexes to come out and then make judgements!

Oh Vash, I dont need competition to break out my new Salamanders. BURN!


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## moo (Aug 12, 2008)

LeeHarvey said:


> Now don't get me wrong here, it's cool that you can use the special characters with any chapter but, doesn't that kind of ruin the uniqueness of the Characters and the Chapters they belong to? It doesn't make sense to me that, let's say Marneus Calgar, is going to lead a force of Space Wolves.(Just an example, I don't know if the new rules for good ole' Marneus will allow that.)
> 
> I know that you can play with them and just call them by a different name but still, most if not all of those special character models will have chapter specific iconography molded right on. That's going to be a problem for players without much conversion experience.
> 
> ...


Well, its kinda what they did with the chaos and eldar, they removed the majority of what makes each force individual and tried to do generic based lists for all. Sucks but ah well gotta move with the flow and see what they plan to do with the other armies to come.


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## zaceee (May 23, 2008)

This little Tidbit just made my day...

GW just basically said. "Spess mehrines R very cool guise and doesnt afraid of everything, They haf great armurs and if somethings hits dem mebbe sumthing gets borken hand LOL!" 

I dont care if they are the poster boy's, MAking them so blatantly overpowered, eans we will probably very soon be doing Space marine ONLY tournaments, then tourneys for the "Lesser " races. It also makes NO sense from a fluff point of view. How can the adeptus mechanicus just make so many new weapons in the space of a few years 

"Ho yush, we jus found this 1337 pattern that is so Ubar!and we can noew mak wepuns for free LUL!"

I mean, seriously?


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## spike12225 (Aug 21, 2008)

lol assualt cannon nerf my dread killed three nobs with three 6's and snake eyes love rending and my ability to roll 6's


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Ordo Xeno Commander said:


> Im sorry, but I cannot handle the amount of bitching about the new SM codex. Sure, its powerful now, but can everyone just WAIT for the other codexes to come out and then make judgements!


So just don't attend any tournaments for 3-4 years? This solution is what happened during fourth edition when rending killed everything. And if you recently had an update(Chaos), you might be even longer down the pipeline. Also, as we all know if a new edition comes out after your army is updated, BAM! Spess mehreins will be receiving the boost.



zaceee said:


> This little Tidbit just made my day...
> 
> GW just basically said. "Spess mehrines R very cool guise and doesnt afraid of everything, They haf great armurs and if somethings hits dem mebbe sumthing gets borken hand LOL!"
> 
> ...


Actually, making a thread about "LATEST NEWS FROM GW" and just having it be a skit about them chatting over new spess mehreins in leetspeak would be awesome.

And fluff? Fluffwise we have legions, craftworlds, and generic/homemade characters worth a damn. Fluffwise, eldrad doesn't attend every single damn eldar skirmish of any size, shape, or quality. Fluffwise, marines don't just decide "Oh my legs work!" when shrike is within lascannon distance.

Besides, I love how these spess mehreins have everything ready to kill all the other updated armies, or can least compete (TL flamers for orks, re-rollable invul saves and psychic test dampening for eldar, and 3+ invul saves for chaos, oh, and an AC13 dreadnought)

Also the librarians just dug up some new psychic nonsense. "Oh yeah, we vetoed the old spells, here's some new ones that we just found...and...allowed you to use."

And yeah, unless one of the other dexes down the line gets something better than marines, I'm immediately switching. 2 attacks in CC is totally not worth having your entire squad wiped out for leadership problems. Hell yeah S6 powerweapons and stupidly invincable dreadnoughts that won't kill my own units.

Oh and I hear they raised the bedamned ws on their hq's to 6. So now chaos lords have the SOLE BENEFIT of being able to carry a weapon that sucks one sixth of the time.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Lord waffles-Not trying to be offensive but nearly every post I see of yours it has some complaint about the chaos codex. I think it's going a bit far. Nearly everyone has some problem with their codex but they cope with it. I don't like the new BA codex compared to the old one but I still play with it and don't complain because it is the relevant codex. If you dislike the codex so much than don't use it. simple as that.... IMO this whole thread has only showed the good things coming to the space marines but it doesn't show anything about all the drawbacks. And we won't know about them until it comes out. If it is all good, no drawback bullshit then I will not use it as it will be over powered but until it actually comes out no-one will truly know what's in it.....

And no, they did not raise the HQ'a WS to 6, check the back of the big rulebook. that has the 5th ed. stats for Space marines....


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## swntzu (Dec 25, 2007)

Lord Reevan said:


> And no, they did not raise the HQ'a WS to 6, check the back of the big rulebook. that has the 5th ed. stats for Space marines....


Actually according to BOLS the WS of Chapter Masters and Captains has indeed been raised to 6. The summary at the back of the rulebook is just a collection of 4th ed stats.

We'll have to wait until the codex comes out to confirm this but I am pretty sure that waffles was right on this one.


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## Mighty (Jun 8, 2008)

Are you sure its 4th edition stats because in the back of the rule book it says the shotgun has two different types of shots but in the space marine codex it only has one?


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## loyalist42 (Sep 7, 2007)

Alright guys...let's keep this discussion civil, yes? Much more of the same 'GW screwed my army over with the new Marine 'dex' talk will result in this thread being closed. 


-Loyalist42


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Hahah, seeing the above comment, I have nothing to share beyond my excitement over my armies new codex.


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## Firewolf (Jan 22, 2007)

>> The new marine dex may have made them hard as fuck, but think how sweet it'll; be when you whip somebodies marines really bad. Outstanding.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Hey, they'll be no harder to deal with than well-listed, well-played Tau.

I say bring 'em on.


You'll get at least a month of easy victories while people sort out their lists.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The stats in the back of the rulebook are 5th edition stats- it explains why Chaplains have WS/BS 4 and Scouts are WS/BS 3.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

^ In that case, they appear to be a typo.

Having sneaked a look at the local store's copy of the Codex, Chaplains are not QUITE what they were an Edition ago... but they're no mere two-wound Veteran Sergeants, either.





Librarians, on the other hand?


Siiiiiiick.

As in "Tzeentchian Sorcerers aren't this badass as Psykers" Siiiiiiick.

Yeah... they can teleport their attachedunits now, if you pick that power.



Yeah, this-



Cole Deschain said:


> Hey, they'll be no harder to deal with than well-listed, well-played Tau.
> 
> I say bring 'em on.
> 
> ...


Yeah. I was DEAD wrong. They're INSANE.

The GOOD news for enemies of the Astartes? No more "Captain Brings His Chaplain and Librarian Buddy with him."


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## Judas Masias (Jun 5, 2008)

From BOLS.


In the words of Blade Runner's Roy Batty "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe". Here are a short list of things I've seen regarding the upcoming Marine codex:

Marines: 16pts a pop. ~Goodbye 15 pts, it was great knowing you for all these years!

Vanguard Veterans may not assault the turn they deepstrike if an IC is attached. If they decide to do the charge they also cannot run or shoot. ~You better work on your hoping skills, or have a locator beacon close by!

Sternguard Veterans are going to be popular. Their ammo is pretty much custom designed to take out Orks (Dragonfire), Monstrous creatures (Hellfire), Tau/Aspect Warriors (Kraken) and MEQs (Vengeance). ~They are pricy, but a single squad in good cover could really achieve great things. 

The Terminator Cyclone missile launcher is indeed a 2-shot weapon in either its krak or frag mode ~Expect to see some of these reappearing from dusty shelves onto the tabletop.

The Ironclad dreadnought is a nasty piece of work. AV:13/13/10, deadly in assault, can run and mount not one but two hunter-killer missiles (and the potential for two heavy flamers). ~Add a drop-pod and you have an instant party!

Scouts + Techmarines = Poorman's Eldar pathfinders. ~Its possible to get 2+ cover saves with this combo!

Scout Bike Squads are one the true standouts of the codex. These go from zero to hero. Three Astartes Grenade launchers combined with outflanking will be a real problem for enemy vehicles. ~Everyone will want a squad. Can you put a price on 1001 tricks up your sleeve?

Razorbacks: Four words... "twin-linked assault cannon" ~I can't believe it but its in there.

Land Raiders: Its true... Power of the Machine Spirit fires at full BS:4! ~Expect to see lots of Land Raiders forging ahead at full speed popping off single sponsons in your face.

~So much more to talk about, but the codex is just beautiful. Thick, really thick and full of lavish color plates. It almost feels like 2 codices. I am impressed! First Impressions are that Marines will finally live up to their fluff. Aggressive, lethal, mobile, but woefully outnumbered. As the horde armies continue to drop in per-man cost, marine players should get used to operating in a heavily outnumbered way against almost any enemy army.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

^ Not ENTIRELY accurate.

A little number-crunching has revealed that the cost of several of the squads in our local group has actually gone DOWN.

And you can bring a truly insane Librarian for a fraction of the cost a mediocre one used to require.

Oh, and three-wound Chaplains? Kiss 'em goodbye folks.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

So I saw the new codex at our gaming store.
Most of the point costs have gone DOWN. Yes. Down.

Librarians are stupid. Like, "i'm a space marine hurr hurr, screw your tzeentch" good.

Most of the non-character hqs have gone up to ws6, all the bad options got better, all the good options got good.

It's exactly as stupid as we feared. Oh also from what I saw, command squads can't get jetpacks, but can get bikes and an apothocary(t5 feel no pain. lolwut)

Also I heard most of the new characters have eternal warrior, haven't confirmed it yet.

All I can say is hot damn! This is the best codex -ever-.


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## LeeHarvey (Jul 25, 2008)

It does sound like there are going to be some good changes but still, I'm going to reserve my final judgement for when I actually have this new 'dex in hand. Anybody know what they did to the basic marine to justify the increase in cost?


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## Pandawithissues... (Dec 2, 2007)

I was wondering if the basic marines will get bolt pistol and ccw for free like CSMs.
Any news on that?


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## Lucius Vane (Jan 21, 2008)

They get pistols, but no CCW standard.


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## LeeHarvey (Jul 25, 2008)

Lucius Vane said:


> They get pistols, but no CCW standard.


That seems a little stupid to me.


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## Lucius Vane (Jan 21, 2008)

Actually, it means that tac marines can finally shoot _and_ charge.


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## loyalist42 (Sep 7, 2007)

From what I hear, basic marines get Bolt Pistol and frag grenades as standard...which makes the increased cost of the marine actually less than equipping a marine with the same gear under the last codex would have. Just a thought.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

loyalist42 said:


> From what I hear, basic marines get Bolt Pistol and frag grenades as standard...which makes the increased cost of the marine actually less than equipping a marine with the same gear under the last codex would have. Just a thought.


And the free special and heavy weapons. And decreased cost of the other choices(lascannon is cheaper). Not to mention the choosing to fail or succeed leadership checks. lol. It's really too much. This codex honestly feels like receiving an oscar without being in a movie.

"Thank you! Thank you! I don't know what to say..."

Oh also venerable is it's own choice and is no longer an upgrade.

Also more news regaurding the codex.

Stern and Vanguard veterans get two attacks BASE. All of the members of the vanguard squad can replace his ccw or bolt pistol with most special CCW, including storm shield, for standard costs. Vanguards cost slightly more than a chaos chosen. And can possibly have as many attacks as a khorne berserker. For less than the cost of a khorne berserker. The leader of the squad comes STANDARD with two attacks and a power weapon.

The new space marine predator is now even cheaper than before. (Ten points less than the cost of two rhinos in the new codex) And it's upgrades have gone in wonky directions. (Sponsons are cheap, tl lascan is expensive)

Most of the special characters have eternal warrior, Cassius is T6, marneus calgar has the OPTION to take terminator armor. Sicarius is a character killer of the highest order (s6 power weapon that can cause ID). Telion can just choose who he kills in a squad....Oh and Marneus calgars storm bolters are ap2. Which he rerolls to wound.

Wow. That's all I can say is wow.

Also if this is illegal to post just let me know and I'll stop with the information. I think I'm in the bounds by not posting direct point costs, but I'd rather not get heresy in trouble.


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## godzy (Jun 5, 2008)

Marines got cheaper. or rather they get more bang for the buck.
the squad costs 90 for five, 165 for ten, and that includes the mandatory vet sarge. so that is 15*10 for ten marines, + 15 for the vet upgrade. just like today. all that was done was make the vet mandatory, and give us some free stuff- bolt pistol and grenades.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Chaos have frag and krak free too, plus the 2 CCWs in their profile. I think one basic squad against the other they're fair. I mean chaos units can fill each role very well while the SMs can fill one role cheaply. Overall I think that works out pretty well....


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## Pandawithissues... (Dec 2, 2007)

Looks well within bounds to me waffles


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## loyalist42 (Sep 7, 2007)

Indeed Waffles; you're good :good: 

Personally, I think I'm going to reserve judgement on just how 'overpowered' the Marines might be until other Fifth Edition codices start showing up. I mean, as it stands, we're basically comparing apples to oranges; until other armies are brought up to date, things are going to seem unfair. It's only natural. 

That being said, I also can't wait for the new Codex to release. My Marines will be getting some serious building soon here...

:biggrin:


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Lord Reevan said:


> Chaos have frag and krak free too, plus the 2 CCWs in their profile. I think one basic squad against the other they're fair. I mean chaos units can fill each role very well while the SMs can fill one role cheaply. Overall I think that works out pretty well....


Oh, I'm not saying the regular marine troops are entirely out of the question, they're about where they should be. They've replaced having a CCW with "They shall feel no falling back, or sweeping advance" Which honestly, I can't say which I'd rather have. And the icons are about on par with having those nifty combat squads. And the increase to sixteen points for additional guys is mostly negated by having free missile launchers and cheap choices. I mean, honestly, they seem dead even.

But than you factor in all the other, nicer stuff. Like the hqs, which are honest-to-chaos broken as all get out. Marneus calgar costs less than abaddon and, appropriately, has a lesser statline. But than we get into wonky rules, where marneus has an ap2 stormbolter, orbital bombardment, and the ability to make EVERYONE in the army auto fail or succeed leadership.

All for less than the cost of abbadon.

And vanguard not stupidly good? Let's compare them to chaos' close combat giants, khorne berserkers.
a ten man squad with a powerfist (and rhino, so they could pull the charge off) charges a ten man squad of vanguard, (The vanguard possess a powerfist and two power weapons, also two storm shield)

Well that's thirty six attack striking at ws5. HELL YEAH! Berserkers hit 24 times on average.
Now for wounds, 24 at s5? Sixteen wounds! Hells yeah. Take that marines.

But oh wait...you have a 2+... we might kill three nameless troopers.
Now the vanguards roll around, three attacks each on the remaining four regular troopers.
12 Attacks, 6 hit, three wound, one dead zerk.
Now the power weapons
six attacks, three hit, 1.5 wounds, 2.5 dead zerks total.

Now the powerfists roll in, hoooooo boy!
4 fists from the zerk, 3 hit, 3 wound. 2 saves on the storm shields. Four nameless troopers dead.

Now the vanguards power fist. Two attacks, one hits, 3.5 dead zerks.


In total we have 4 dead vanguard to nearly four dead berzerkers. Berserkers who charged. And let's assume marneus calgar is stomping around, because who WOULDN'T take him in a non-competitive list. Vanguards consolodate and rend the zerks asunder next turn.

Even decked out chosen have very little chance against vanguard. I mean, it's an AWESOME entry. Just really, really, strong for how many points it is.

Which is why I'll be bringing two squads worth hahah


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

It's honour guard.... Personally I've always hated clagar for being such a tit and now I have reasons to hate him game wise:biggrin: The honour guard is pretty bullcrap too because there are several chapters that deserve the right to have that kind of honour guard. Space wolves guards are made up of commanders of smaller armies for example, BT same overall style, BA had THE original tooled up honour guard so I don't like Ultras having it..... Plus If other codices are anything to go by the honour guard will only be 5 man..... So if that is right (I hope) you've almost annhiliated that whole squad and lost less men so maybe it's not so bad.....


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Lord Reevan said:


> It's honour guard.... Personally I've always hated clagar for being such a tit and now I have reasons to hate him game wise:biggrin: The honour guard is pretty bullcrap too because there are several chapters that deserve the right to have that kind of honour guard. Space wolves guards are made up of commanders of smaller armies for example, BT same overall style, BA had THE original tooled up honour guard so I don't like Ultras having it..... Plus If other codices are anything to go by the honour guard will only be 5 man..... So if that is right (I hope) you've almost annhiliated that whole squad and lost less men so maybe it's not so bad.....


Honestly, I'm excited about fielding an honor guard, I think they're a fluffy, characterful choice that shows off alot of personality. It's how I use my chosen now, an elite section of troops used to deal with anything threatening the lord.

And I'll check on the honour guard entry the next time I'm around the new codex(Monday) I'm pretty sure they don't get two attacks like vanguard, so it'll probably be a much more balanced thing.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

I'm the same i have 3 dedicated retinues and I love using them. I have yet to even see the codex so everything I'm going on is pure assumption so i'm more than likley wrong:biggrin:


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

The upgraded power of the machine spirit on land raiders is going to make them quite a lot better.

The new rule is that you can fire one more weapon than you would normally be able to fire. You can fire a gun if stunned, shaken or moving at cruising speed. This is at BS4 and can be at a different target to other weapons.

So you will see land raiders moving 12", dropping off troops, and firing their pretty effective weapons. Moving 6" and firing a twin lascannon in two directions also looks pretty effective. They will be good.


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