# Best fighter amongst the Primarchs.



## Coder59

ok I've read several conflicting account for this. 

Who was the best close quaters warrior amongst the Primarchs? I've read some accounts that claim it was Horus, Sanguinus, Leman Russ, Fulgrim or Angron. Does anybody else have ideas?

Personally I doubt it was Horus, he seems more a general type rather than a full on CQC warrior. Likewise I'm somehow thinking it Isn't Fulgrim either, yes he was a bad boy and he has the biggest Primarch tally of anybody but it seems like amongst his brothers he wasn't really exceptional combat wise. 

Angron is a possibility but he just seems too mental to be the best. A complete Berzerker rage will only get you so far against an opponent of equal power. 

So that leaves Sanguinus and Leman. Both of them have recorded victories and defeats. Sanguinius killed that Blood Thirster, Leman beat the snot out of Magnus. Sanguinus got killed by Horus after he was hopped up on Daemon Juice, Leman got knocked out by the BIG E and again when Lion sucker punched him. 

Overall I'm leaning towards Sanguinius but what do you guys think.


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## johnnymajic

Well im not fluff expert, but correct me if i'm wrong, but isnt Fulgrim feared as one of the universes greatest sword duelers? again correct me if I'm wrong

Personally, i think Angron would anihilate anyone, except maybe Leman russ


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## hailene

All the primarchs were so close in fighting ability that minute details (environment, slipping in a puddle of blood, sun rising behind his opponent) could turn the battle each way.

Also known as whatever the plot dictates.


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## Coder59

johnnymajic said:


> Well im not fluff expert, but correct me if i'm wrong, but isnt Fulgrim feared as one of the universes greatest sword duelers? again correct me if I'm wrong
> 
> Personally, i think Angron would anihilate anyone, except maybe Leman russ


Is that at Fighting or drinking?


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## CaptianEzekyleAbbadon

i think he means drinking and any way Leman russ would beat any one in a drinking game.


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## GiftofChaos1234

well i believe it is alpharius simply because the enemy primarch would have to kill hundreds if not thousands of alpha legion aspiring champions to find him then that might even be omegon and then they would double team you. ouch.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

I dont think its something you can easily measure. Its like asking whos the better general; Napolean, Hitler, Julius Caesar, Emperor Justinian, Gordon Brown, Superman, Dr. Manhatten or My Mother :grin:

I think it all depends on the situation. Were the individuals distracted? A Random, unforseen incident could cost a Primarch his Life, etc. Theres lots of Factors to be taken into account. 

On a side note Magnus the Red was actually raping Leman Russ until Wolf Lord Garm cheated and threw a Spear at Magnus who was literally just about to crush Russ. Just goes to show how dangerous Magnus was in Closer-Combat if he could flatten Russ.


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## matty570

Fluff wise, I would like to think that sanguinas was as well, but as everyone has mentioned it depends on situation. The most eloquently trained duelist is likely to fall short to an unorthadox fighter who uses brute strength and ignorance.


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## Coder59

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> On a side note Magnus the Red was actually raping Leman Russ until Wolf Lord Garm cheated and threw a Spear at Magnus who was literally just about to crush Russ. Just goes to show how dangerous Magnus was in Closer-Combat if he could flatten Russ.


Where was that mentiond? I know Magnus wounded Leman but I don't think Magnus could beat Leman in a one on one punch up. 

As for the whole who the was the best being determined by circumstance I mean on a flat completely level playing field before all the Daemon Juice kicked in since obviously Horus was the best one after that. On a battlefield where it all comes down to sheer skill.

And I can't really see anybody beating Sanguinius in a completely even one on one. Russ, Angron and Fulgrim seem to have been getting there but from the way people talk about him in the books birdy boy seems to have been something a bit above and beyond. As it says in Deus Sanguinius "The pure one was a match for any warrior that lived." 
That combined with what his Legion specialised in makes me think he may have been a CQC extraordinaire.



matty570 said:


> Fluff wise, I would like to think that sanguinas was as well, but as everyone has mentioned it depends on situation. The most eloquently trained duelist is likely to fall short to an unorthadox fighter who uses brute strength and ignorance.


That what leads me to believe it wasn't Fulgrim. If anything Fulgrim may have been a superb swordsman when he was an Imperial but his flaw seems to have been over training rather than being adaptive. Thats why i get the impression that Leman or Angron would have stomped all over him before the Daemon Juice hit.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Coder59 said:


> Where was that mentiond? I know Magnus wounded Leman but I don't think Magnus could beat Leman in a one on one punch up.


I Believe it was in one of the Space Wolves novels. Ive got a feeling Its either 'Grey Hunter' or 'Wolf's Honour', cant remember for sure though. Anyways I do think that Magnus could beat Russ in a punch-up - Magnus was the largest Primarch and was literally a giant, he had the power behind him at least 



Coder59 said:


> As for the whole who the was the best being determined by circumstance I mean on a flat completely level playing field before all the Daemon Juice kicked in since obviously Horus was the best one after that. On a battlefield where it all comes down to sheer skill.


Well I would said that on whatever battlefield or circumstance it never comes down to just 'sheer skill', there are always other factors which hamper skill. But even in a theoretical 'completley flat level playing field' its still next-to-impossible to determine which Primarch would triumph.



Coder59 said:


> And I can't really see anybody beating Sanguinius in a completely even one on one.


Ka'Bandha Raped him the first time! Broke his legs, and made him watch his Astartes get slaughtered. But showed him a twisted kind of mercy and let him live, but only to watch his Legion get mauled.



Coder59 said:


> As it says in Deus Sanguinius "The pure one was a match for any warrior that lived."


Indeed - But thats a Blood Angels novel... Biased?! 



Coder59 said:


> Thats why i get the impression that Leman or Angron would have stomped all over him before the Daemon Juice hit.


I dunno, pure skill and perfection(!) can often best brute strength.


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## Coder59

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I Believe it was in one of the Space Wolves novels. Ive got a feeling Its either 'Grey Hunter' or 'Wolf's Honour', cant remember for sure though. Anyways I do think that Magnus could beat Russ in a punch-up - Magnus was the largest Primarch and was literally a giant, he had the power behind him at least


The bigger they are the harder they fall. From what I remember Magnus and Russ fought each other to a standstill then Russ let himself get stabbed or something then broke his back over his knee. 




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Ka'Bandha Raped him the first time! Broke his legs, and made him watch his Astartes get slaughtered. But showed him a twisted kind of mercy and let him live, but only to watch his Legion get mauled.


Ka'Bandha got one of his eyes ripped out the first time he fought the birdy so while it wasn't the complete stuff beating he did beat Sanguinius, mind you what Sanguinius did to Ka'Bandha at the ultimate gate more than made up for it. 





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Indeed - But thats a Blood Angels novel... Biased?!


Actually if you take that statement along with hrous oppinion that Sangruinius was basically Big E MkII it sort of makes sense, since we know Big E could pulversie all the Primarchs.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I dunno, pure skill and perfection(!) can often best brute strength.


Eh i dunno Fulgrims training seems to have been all based on form and swordsmanship. Remember Fulgrim wasn't literally perfect he was aspiring to what he thought of as Perfection. And we all know how right he was about that don't we. It allways seemed to me that Fulgrim might have had the Skill but not the will and instinct that Angron, Leman, Sanguinius or Jaghatai had.

I forgot something about birdy boy he can do something no other Primarch could do.


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## dark angel

Well this is my thoughts-

My top three Primarch fighters would have to be-

Angron (Is a freaking monster! Carries twin Chainaxes and had a entire mountain fall on him (Badass:biggrin 

LEJ (Beat Russ in a duel though only due to his speed, a brilliant Tactician Horus mentions in one of the HH Novels that LEJ has the second highest ammount of victories bar the Warmaster himself)

Russ (Again Russ is a monster in battle, getting in the thick of it he is amongst the stronger of the Primarchs)


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## Revelations

In most accounts of the final battle in the Heresy, it's been stated that even with no Daemonic Power that Sang still wasn't a match for Horus. Plus hoped up on his juice he went toe to toe with the Emp. Granted that's more in line with Raw-Cosmic power but that's like asking Superman not to use his Laser Beam eyes in a fight to the death with Doomsday. 

And then of course we have an Ork that almost crushed the Emp throat in. So... there are things out there worse than a Primarch.


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## Khorne's Fist

dark angel said:


> LEJ (Beat Russ in a duel though only due to his speed, a brilliant Tactician Horus mentions in one of the HH Novels that LEJ has the second highest ammount of victories bar the Warmaster himself)


Sorry, but that's wrong. They fought until Russ stopped and started laughing at the absurdity of two primarchs fighting, at which point Jonson sucker punched him. That's long been established in the fluff. Also, being a tactical and strategic genius means little in a one on one duel.


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## Dames

im not sure on the best fighter, as most of the primarchs are equally matched and it would all be determined by the circumstances (and cheats, yes looking at you Lion, Russ had stopped when you hit him)
but i think the best fight would be between Angron and Leman Russ as it would be the most brutal


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

dark angel said:


> LEJ (Beat Russ in a duel though only due to his speed, a brilliant Tactician Horus mentions in one of the HH Novels that LEJ has the second highest ammount of victories bar the Warmaster himself)


Firstly no where does Horus mention in the Heresy novels that the Lion had the second Highest Number of Victories. (Im pretty sure about this because i've just finished re-reading the first 3 books!) Infact I believe that the only times that the Lion was mentioned was about Rogal Dorn being as Courageous as the Lion, and about the Lion being very jealous of Horus being made Warmaster. Oh and that the Lion would laugh at Horus about Horus not judging Temba correctly. :good:

He actually states that Rogal Dorn has the second highest number of victories. (i'll get a quote for you if you like.. I believe its from Horus Rising when Dorn was with Horus for a while.)

:grin:


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## Coder59

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Firstly no where does Horus mention in the Heresy novels that the Lion had the second Highest Number of Victories. (Im pretty sure about this because i've just finished re-reading the first 3 books!) Infact I believe that the only times that the Lion was mentioned was about Rogal Dorn being as Courageous as the Lion, and about the Lion being very jealous of Horus being made Warmaster. Oh and that the Lion would laugh at Horus about Horus not judging Temba correctly. :good:
> 
> He actually states that Rogal Dorn has the second highest number of victories. (i'll get a quote for you if you like.. I believe its from Horus Rising when Dorn was with Horus for a while.)
> 
> :grin:


See I'm confused. The status of second highest victory count seems to be constantly shifting between Guilliman, Lion and now Dorn. Can't GW make up their minds!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Coder59 said:


> See I'm confused. The status of second highest victory count seems to be constantly shifting between Guilliman, Lion and now Dorn. Can't GW make up their minds!


Well the only solid information I believe there is, is Horus Rising - Which states that Dorn has the second best record in the Crusade. So im going with Dorn! :grin:

or at least thats the most up-to-date source.. im not aware of any other sources anyway.


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## ChapterMaster22

Well on a one on one with only close combat weopens no pyshic powers, guns and its pre heresy the winner of the brawl in my opinion would be.......... maybe.... Sanguines heres why though Angron, and Russ are monters they are eventually going to beaten Brute force can only go so far Fulgrims quest for perfection led him to Damnation and to be possed by a Deamon so his will would push him only so far and he would lose making lion, Horus and Sanguines but horus is the best Gen. but not the best close combat so... even though he fought the Emp. that was becuase of being of chaos i mean luther could have killed lion but he stoped himshelf so !!!SANGUINES!!!! would be the winner if there was no special weopns or armor JUST Chainswords OR Swords no special swords like fireblade NOTE: russ first attacked lion for killing the traitor governor that insulterd him then they fought for Hours.. Russ got thrown through a table then he laughed at the stupidness (lack of better word) lion thinking it was a insult then punched him in the jaw knocking him out


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## Coder59

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Well the only solid information I believe there is, is Horus Rising - Which states that Dorn has the second best record in the Crusade. So im going with Dorn! :grin:
> 
> or at least thats the most up-to-date source.. im not aware of any other sources anyway.


5th Ed Space Marine codex states it was Guilliman due to his tactical genius and diplomatic skills.


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## MontytheMighty

Revelations said:


> Plus hoped up on his juice he went toe to toe with the Emp.


everyone knows the emperor was going easy on him, like a father would with his wayward son :biggrin:



Khorne's Fist said:


> Also, being a tactical and strategic genius means little in a one on one duel.


yes, close quarters combat intelligence/skill and tactical/strategic genius are two separate things


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## Coder59

I'm really really sorry about this. Seriously I am but it just has to be done. 




MontytheMighty said:


> everyone knows the emperor was going easy on him, like a father would with his wayward son :biggrin:


Carry on my wayward son
There'll be peace when you are done
lay your weary head to rest
don't you cry no more :music:


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## Muffinman

I think it has to be Sanguinius. He broke a daemons back across his knee with only his bare hands. And it wasn't Horus's combat abilities that killed Sanguinius it was his pshycic abilities and the fact that he shattered his mind, Horus did weaken Sanguinius in the actual fight but that wasnt what killed him.


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## revenant13

I cant remember where i read this (long time ago) but Horus would train the other primarchs when they were found. At the end of their "training" Horus would 1v1 them in a duel and the only ones to have ever beaten him were Sanguinius and Russ. if you ask me that kinda automatically makes it between Russ and the Angel.

Fulgrim i find to be a definite no since he couldnt even beat Ferrus without cheating. Ferrus wasnt known for being an awesome fighter either (relative to other primarchs).

And from what i understood about Magnus, he was the worst hth fighter of all the primarchs but his psychic abilities more than made up for it.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Coder59 said:


> 5th Ed Space Marine codex states it was Guilliman due to his tactical genius and diplomatic skills.


Fair enough  So thats 2 conflicting sources so far!

I make a habit of purposely not buying Space Marine Codices! Even though I own most other Codices, so thats why I wasn't aware of this particular source :good:



Muffinman said:


> And it wasn't Horus's combat abilities that killed Sanguinius it was his pshycic abilities and the fact that he shattered his mind, Horus did weaken Sanguinius in the actual fight but that wasnt what killed him.


I was under the impression we didn't actually know how Horus killed Sanguinius. Only that when the Emperor turned up, Sanguinius' body lay mauled at the Warmasters feet.



MontytheMighty said:


> everyone knows the emperor was going easy on him, like a father would with his wayward son :biggrin:


If you havn't done so already. Try reading the account of the Emperor's duel with Horus in the Collected Visions. Its not as straight forward as you might think.



revenant13 said:


> Fulgrim i find to be a definite no since he couldnt even beat Ferrus without cheating. Ferrus wasnt known for being an awesome fighter either (relative to other primarchs).
> 
> And from what i understood about Magnus, he was the worst hth fighter of all the primarchs but his psychic abilities more than made up for it.


I havnt read 'Fulgrim' since it was released so may be wrong here. But he didnt cheat when fighting Ferrus Manus at all. It was only after he had beaten Ferrus in a duel that he found he couldnt bring himself to deliver the killing blow.. then he allowed the Daemon to take over. Thats not cheating.. he beat Ferrus without the Daemons Help (If memory serves!! )

And no Magnus was not the worst fighter of the Primarchs. He was the largest Primarch and was extremley strong. He would have killed Russ were it not for the actions of Wolf Lord Garm. So if you want to get technical Magnus is actually a 'better fighter' than Russ, because Russ had to 'cheat' to beat Magnus!! :grin:


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## Coder59

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I make a habit of purposely not buying Space Marine Codices! Even though I own most other Codices, so thats why I wasn't aware of this particular source :good:


Gosh darned heretics :biggrin:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I was under the impression we didn't actually know how Horus killed Sanguinius. Only that when the Emperor turned up, Sanguinius' body lay mauled at the Warmasters feet.


I think he's supposed to have stunned him with dragonball z psychic hadouken thingy and then strangled him. I don't believe this however since horus was wearing Lightening claws...hoow do you strangle somebody with heresy era lightening claws? 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> If you havn't done so already. Try reading the account of the Emperor's duel with Horus in the Collected Visions. Its not as straight forward as you might think.


Yeh but it still comes down to Big E not being able to bring his full power to bear on the big cry baby. 





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I havnt read 'Fulgrim' since it was released so may be wrong here. But he didnt cheat when fighting Ferrus Manus at all. It was only after he had beaten Ferrus in a duel that he found he couldnt bring himself to deliver the killing blow.. then he allowed the Daemon to take over. Thats not cheating.. he beat Ferrus without the Daemons Help (If memory serves!! )


Thou most certainly are wrong sir. When Fulgrim and Ferrus first started their little duel Ferrus was using Fireblade the sword he made and then gifted to Fulgrim and Mr Girlypants was using Forgebreaker, and as a result Ferrus was kicking him all over the place. However Fulgrim was carrying the Daemon Sword he got in the temple of the Laer and it was only when he started to use that and the power it was feeding him that he managed to kill Ferrus.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And no Magnus was not the worst fighter of the Primarchs. He was the largest Primarch and was extremley strong. He would have killed Russ were it not for the actions of Wolf Lord Garm. So if you want to get technical Magnus is actually a 'better fighter' than Russ, because Russ had to 'cheat' to beat Magnus!! :grin:


Just because he was bigger and stronger that doesn't mean he was a better fighter. Russ is allways spoken of as one of the best warriors amongst the Primarchs and Magnus is never mentioned as such his power seems to have been mainly psychic. So if he was beating Russ it was probably due to either Daemon Juice or Psychic powers. In fact i'm sure i read somewhere that Magnus was no match for Russ as a warrior and he knew it, so he used foul acts of sorcery to close the gap and fight in a manner which Russ couldn't. 
Besides Magnus is a Wizard (despite his lack of beard) can you really see him pounding away at Russ and yelling "MAGNUS SMASH!" no I think Russ will have been the one smacking Magnus and Magnus will have been using Psychic powers and physical attacks since Russ had no defence against them. 

If Magnus had been fighting the winged wonder he would have been dead in two seconds flat.


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## The Odd One

I think Angron because his Legion loves CC.


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## MontytheMighty

just where does it say that Horus defeated winged wonder with a psychic attack? in all the accounts I've read all it ever says is something to the effect of _Sanguinius tried to talk sense to Horus, but Horus would have none it. In his weakened state Sanguinius was no match for the Chaos-powered Horus and was quickly dispatched._


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## Coder59

MontytheMighty said:


> just where does it say that Horus defeated winged wonder with a psychic attack? in all the accounts I've read all it ever says is something to the effect of _Sanguinius tried to talk sense to Horus, but Horus would have none it. In his weakened state Sanguinius was no match for the Chaos-powered Horus and was quickly dispatched._


I think it was old fluff tbh. I think the strangleing thing is still in but I think the excuse for him losing was that we was weakened after the battle on Terra.


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## Jackinator

I think if I really had to choose I would choose Sanguinas because the only fight he didn't survive was against someone with power of near godlike proprotions (in the material realm any way, whole different thing in the warp).
Plus he had the second sight, he could see into the future ( I think, I'm sure I've read that somewhere).

But otherwise I would disagree as when Napoleon was told of the tactical skill of a subordinate he said "but is he lucky?"


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## DuesIncarmine

there can only be one and it is already chosen by him (and we all know who im talking about) Sanguinus.


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## scolatae

Every one ragging ferrus manus is horribly wrong. Fulgrim had a daemon blade therefore he cheated and he was a pansy any way. For me it's Sanguinis Hands down I personaly believe he could have beaten horus in a one on one even with his daemon strength, when horus discoverd this he was forced to deal with the angel through psycic means.


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## yojimbo

Has no one mentioned Corax!

I recall in Deliverance Lost, Corax said he could beat the snot out of most of the other Primarchs. There were one or two who could go toe to toe with him, and that was Russ and or Sanguinius.


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## Phoebus

Khorne's Fist said:


> Sorry, but that's wrong. They fought until Russ stopped and started laughing at the absurdity of two primarchs fighting, at which point Jonson sucker punched him. That's long been established in the fluff.


In the old fluff (of which the fight you describe is a part), the Lion and Russ fought at least _two_ times.

One of those times is the fist fight you describe. It's worth noting that, technically, Leman Russ also cheap-shoted El'Jonson - thought one could argue that the Lion expected Russ to get violent.

The second time, the Lion and Russ fought in an armed duel. The fight was ended - and declared a draw - after El'Jonson managed to stab Russ through the heart. It's never qualified why the fight was called a draw, and no details as to Russ' own actions in the fight are given.

Following the Heresy, El'Jonson supposedly accused Russ of slowing them down (they were going back to Terra together, to lift the siege). Russ bared his chest, the Lion ran him through in a fit of rage, but pulled his blow at the last second. He stayed by Russ' bed until he recovered, and the two reconciled.



> Also, being a tactical and strategic genius means little in a one on one duel.


Not automatically, no. Nor is one a prerequisite for the other. But some warriors in history were keen in both personal combat and in planning and tactics. Miyamoto Musashi claimed that the complete swordsman also needed to be a proper tactician. Commanders of the Hellenistic world were expected to not just be tacticians and strategists, but to be athletes and proper fighters and hunters as well. It's too easy to say one means little where the other is concerned.

Cheers!


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## Lux

I would say Alpharius was one of the best fighters of the Primarchs, along with Konrad Curze.


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## Beaviz81

It's a no-brainer. Horus he basically was the best that was when alive, and that was pre-corruption. After that he became a living god just like daddy. And for me a Primarch is a demigod who can basically curb-stomp anything they see fit to do.


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## Angel of Blood

Lux said:


> I would say Alpharius was one of the best fighters of the Primarchs, along with Konrad Curze.


Any particular reason why Alpharius. I mean, we've literally never seen him or Omegon fight in the series thus far. And in the only fluff related story of 'him' fighting, he got killed in one stroke by Guilliman, though this a poor example for a whole host of reasons, most prominently the one that it in all likelihood never happened of course. 



Beaviz81 said:


> It's a no-brainer. Horus he basically was the best that was when alive, and that was pre-corruption. After that he became a living god just like daddy. And for me a Primarch is a demigod who can basically curb-stomp anything they see fit to do.


I wouldn't say it's a no-brainer at all. Horus was lauded for being an all rounder, great in everything. Though he was certainly said to be amongst the best fighters, the like of Angron and Sanguinius are renowned almost soley for their martial prowess in many instances. Both the Lion and the Wolf King have also been shown to be excellent fighters, the former in his own Knightly way(when he isn't sucker punching others) and the latter for his brawler manner. Similarly we've seen just how dangerous and unpredictable Kurze can be, though in my honest belief, the Lion does seem to be better. The Khan is also mentioned as being an almost unrivaled swordsman. And then of course we saw what Corax did to Lorgar, pre-psychic Lorgar or not, his close combat skills were incredible and a joy to read about.


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## Lux

I say Alpharius purely because his display of speed when Horus first met him was astounding, he dodged all of Horus's bolter shots that were aimed to kill him. Alpharius not only dodge Horus's bolter fire at close range, he also continued to advance upon him closing the distance until Horus and him both recognized one another as brothers.
I say Curze is one of the best fighters for being able to dismantle Dorn, while Curze was in the nude while Dorn was in full battle gear/armor and surrounded by his honor guard.

As for Curze and the Lion, too many variables to say objectively who is superior thus it comes down to opinion. Curze would have killed Lion if there was no interference during their first fight, but again too many variables. As for their second fight we have little to no details on except for that the lion put curze into a coma from the wounds. However it is imperative for one to keep in mind the context of that battle. Curze had stalemated the Lion in war for years, however the Lion then obtained a Deus Ex Machina Device that allowed him to instantly warp transit his entire Legion to any singular location all at once. This would have caught any primarch off guard as prior to this no technology had ever allowed this to be achieved, in essence The Lion was able to warp his 100k+ strong legion in its entirity straight upon Curze's flagship. This allowed instantaneous outnumbering, out gunning, and boarding of Curze's ship. As for the fight itself that occurred we have no details, who knows if the Lion was injured as well, or if Curze was fighting the Lion + thousands of boarding Dark Angels from the tens of thousands of ships that outnumbered them. As for their third fight which as not yet been published, we also know nothing of, but I look forward to seeing how their war in the galactic fringe ties up.

Horus I believe is praised as being the "best" for being well rounded in all fields, he was not the best in any specific field or specialty. However it was his ability to be good in all fields though not the best in any, that allowed him to be overall great. As for combat I believe Horus would have been beaten by the Night Haunter, Sanguinius, Russ, Magnus, Angron, Lorgar (once he had accepted and learned to use the powers of the warp in combat - see Betrayer for his displays of telekensis and kine shields).


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## Beaviz81

Angel of Blood said:


> I wouldn't say it's a no-brainer at all. Horus was lauded for being an all rounder, great in everything. Though he was certainly said to be amongst the best fighters, the like of Angron and Sanguinius are renowned almost soley for their martial prowess in many instances. Both the Lion and the Wolf King have also been shown to be excellent fighters, the former in his own Knightly way(when he isn't sucker punching others) and the latter for his brawler manner. Similarly we've seen just how dangerous and unpredictable Kurze can be, though in my honest belief, the Lion does seem to be better. The Khan is also mentioned as being an almost unrivaled swordsman. And then of course we saw what Corax did to Lorgar, pre-psychic Lorgar or not, his close combat skills were incredible and a joy to read about.


Come on dodging bullets hardly is the thing. For me the power levels are simple, first comes Empy then Horus juiced up, then the C'tan/Chaos gods, then the Eldar gods/Primarches, and Horus even without juice was the mightiest of them. At least that's how I interpret the fluff.


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## Angel of Blood

Hmmm, fair point, from what I remember of that story though, didn't Horus have Alpharius dead to rights in the end, but didn't fire the final round as he recognised Alpharius to be one of his lost brothers(his last in fact). Still, dodging bullets at that sort of range is rather impressive, but at the same time, we still know nothing about how he actually fairs in combat. 

The Curze/Lion duels are of course very, very difficult to judge, hence why I added in a heavy 'in my belief'. And simply for the fact that the Lion is essentially 3-1 up on the score. Regardless of how others will insist Curze won or would have won, I'm still going to go by the word of ADB himself that it was a draw, not only because he says it was, but because I truly believe it was, but that discussion has been done to death on here in multiple threads. Granted, the Lion did have the element of surprise and overwheming numbers, and yes we didn't see the fight itself, but just from the aftermath, it certainly seems that the Lion dominated Curze and without a shadow of a doubt would have killed him if he wasn't chased away, he should have and could have killed him earlier, but it seems he wanted to force Curze to kneel before him and execute him for his crimes instead of finishing him off instantly. He also won the third fight, chased off or not, Curze ran from the fight.


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## Lux

I thought the third fight has not been published yet? Or are you referencing to when Curze boarded the Lion's ship with his honor guard, if so I wouldn't call that a fight as they never fought.

Curze had little choice, he was infiltrating the Lion's ship and upon the Lion coming for him it was best he ran otherwise he would become outnumbered fast. 

So far I would say the score is one to one I personally believe curze won the first fight on the planet (regardless of what ADB says), while I believe the Lion won the second fight when he boarded Curze's flag ship after the ambush. I don't believe the third fight has happened yet.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Lux said:


> I thought the third fight has not been published yet? Or are you referencing to when Curze boarded the Lion's ship with his honor guard, if so I wouldn't call that a fight as they never fought.
> 
> Curze had little choice, he was infiltrating the Lion's ship and upon the Lion coming for him it was best he ran otherwise he would become outnumbered fast.
> 
> So far I would say the score is one to one I personally believe curze won the first fight on the planet (regardless of what ADB says), while I believe the Lion won the second fight when he boarded Curze's flag ship after the ambush. I don't believe the third fight has happened yet.


The second fight was on the planet as well actually, just as a small note. As for the ship action, when Sevetar finds Kurze he is locked in a duel with the Lion, but retreats by the end.


----------



## Beaviz81

Even so, you are discussing a fight between second-stringers in a fist-fight between Primarches. First I rate Horus, then comes Angron and Sanguinius, then Leman Russ though only when he opened himself up is he defeated byt the Lion, and he goes mano-a-mano with Angron (losing, but Russ doesn't intend to kill Angron, so that's count hugely) even though he is losing barely. I also rank Lorgar and Magnus high due to psychic prowess (they don't have to fight fair), also Fulgrim is pretty much a Primarch-buster as he destroys two Primarches in close-combat, and remember things written by Ward shall generally be in my view regarded as what people think of themselves.


----------



## joebauerek

Ive got say its a toss up of 4:

1)Horus - hes a master tactician and has a good record. 

2)Russ - hes a bezerker who just keeps going (know this isnt definite proof but hey)

3)Angron - hes a monster who just kills things all the time

4)The Khan - just for how little info there is on him. I foresee him being a brutal fighter.

All opinionated I know but its just my opinion


----------



## XXTerminus DecreeXX

1 angron - the night of the wolf i believe where russ tried to fight angron and angron even told him "the day will never dawn when you can best me in combat" and russ didn't tell him no. 

2 or 3 Sanguinius or Horus - They have been known to be the best fights and i think it was said that no one could beat angron in physical comabt except for maybe these 2

4 idk why but i feel magnus, we know librarians can use the warp to augment there strength and make them more powerful, can you imagine a primarch on steriods??


----------



## Romanov77

Didn't the latest fluff picture Vulkan as the toughest one? 

That whole blurb about him holding back while dueling with his bros because he found them weak....


----------



## Lost&Damned

technically, vulkan, he cant be killed, so by default, he wins.
that said, Angron wins in a brawl. id like to think the Khan wins.


----------



## Chompy Bits

Romanov77 said:


> Didn't the latest fluff picture Vulkan as the toughest one?
> 
> That whole blurb about him holding back while dueling with his bros because he found them weak....


The bit about him holding back was with regards to his physical strength. It isn't necessarily reflective of actual combat prowess. That being said, from his recent showings, he does seem to be quite handy in terms of fighting capability. And no slouch speed wise either.

I still personally rank Horus, Sanguinius and Angron at the top end in terms of pure fighting ability. They are the 3 that are consistently noted throughout the HH series, by various characters, as the best fighters. A lot of other primarchs get a single nod here or there, but these 3 names pop up a lot when it comes to primarch martial ability. That being said, I think that all the primarchs are close enough in terms of martial ability that the circumstances under which duels between any of them take place can greatly influence the end results.


----------



## Gret79

Has anyone got a list of which primarchs have fought each other so far?


----------



## Romanov77

I seem to recall that Curze got kicked in the teeth by a fair share of his brothers...I wonder if all those blows caused a fraction of his dementia...


----------



## Khorne's Fist

There's an interesting chapter in Scars where Fulgrim, Sang, the Khan, and Mortarion are sitting around after the parade on Ullanor. 



Sang brings it up that the ordinary soldiers discuss who would win out of all 18. Fulgrim of course thinks it would be him. The Khan has no interest in the discussion, Sang finds it amusing, but Mortarion sums it up, saying they are all made for different fights, with different strengths.


Trying to pick one eventually comes down to a matter of personal preference, as the only definitive fight we've seen so far is Ferrus v a demon boosted Fulgrim, which skewed the result somewhat. 

If I had to pick it'd have to come from primarchs that we've seen fight each other so far. Russ, the Khan and Fulgrim for me. Don't know how anybody could pick Horus, we've seen next to nothing of him in combat at all, never mind against another primarchs.

EDIT. Gonna have to add Curze. He's faced 4 of his brothers in combat, two of them at the same time, and walked away. He also nearly killed Dorn. He definitely needs to be considered a serious contender.


----------



## Beaviz81

I'm not sure how much the demon does for the Primarch. Mortarion was basically having his ass handed to him by Kaldor Draigo. I actually go as far as thinking it might be a hindrance not a boost in a fight.


----------



## Vaz

Gret79 said:


> Has anyone got a list of which primarchs have fought each other so far?


Shouldn't be too late to start it.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Beaviz81 said:


> I'm not sure how much the demon does for the Primarch. Mortarion was basically having his ass handed to him by Kaldor Draigo. I actually go as far as thinking it might be a hindrance not a boost in a fight.


Don't mean to be rude, but that ridiculous piece of fanboy fluff has no place in a discussion on the Horus Heresy. If you were to go by that Draigo would kick a normal primarchs ass easily.


----------



## Beaviz81

Khorne's Fist said:


> Don't mean to be rude, but that ridiculous piece of fanboy fluff has no place in a discussion on the Horus Heresy. If you were to go by that Draigo would kick a normal primarchs ass easily.


Huh? I can't change what's in the Grey Knights-codex.

Is this an attack on me or not? I'm a bit unsure now.


----------



## Vaz

Yes you can. You ignore it. Like the Dawn of War novels.

And that bit about how everybody wants to be cat/ultramarine. It would be the equivalent of, I don't know, a Liverpool supporter wishing they were an Everton fan because they had like Messi, or something. It's tripe, and bollocks. And written by the same person; whether or not its Mat Ward, but it was okayed by him as the Editor in Chief of book, which is why he gets the stick, and deservedly so.


----------



## Lost&Damned

Beaviz81 said:


> Huh? I can't change what's in the Grey Knights-codex.


I personally just ignore it, its simply idiotic, and its not like its the first or last piece of idiocy written.
There is no way Draigo is equal to over 100 grey knights in terminator armour.


----------



## Beaviz81

Wow here I really hit a mine. I tend to see it as Grey knight-bragging, as I tend to interpret that a codex (especially the ones written by MW) as how the things in question regards themselves.

Interesting to see how the other MW-haters deals with it.

And even more interesting to watch what a berserk-button Kaldor Draigsue is.


----------



## venomlust

Not sure I'd list Horus. The Warmaster didn't exactly do a great job killing the guy possessed by that Nurgle daemon who wounded him with the anathame.

Also, the variations in the spelling of "Sanguinius" are very amusing. 

Angron FTW.


----------



## Zooey72

Coder59 said:


> Likewise I'm somehow thinking it Isn't Fulgrim either, yes he was a bad boy.


I just could not let this go. Fulgrim is as much of a "Bad Boy" as Micheal Jackson was in the video "Beat it".

_Just Beat It, Beat It, Beat It, Beat It
No One Wants To Be Defeated
Showin' How Funky Strong Is Your Fight
It Doesn't Matter Who's Wrong Or Right
Just Beat It, Beat It
Just Beat It, Beat It
Just Beat It, Beat It
Just Beat It, Beat It_


----------



## Lux

I believe there is no greatest primarch in regards to combat ability, it all comes down to which primarch is fighting which primarch. The strengths of one primarch give them an advantage over another primarch, however those same strengths become their weaknesses against other primarchs.


----------



## Vaz

Lux said:


> I believe there is no greatest primarch in regards to combat ability, it all comes down to which primarch is fighting which primarch. The strengths of one primarch give them an advantage over another primarch, however those same strengths become their weaknesses against other primarchs.


SAVING FOR POSTERITY.

Lux's first none inane post.


----------



## Chompy Bits

venomlust said:


> Not sure I'd list Horus. The Warmaster didn't exactly do a great job killing the guy possessed by that Nurgle daemon who wounded him with the anathame.


Temba managed to connect him _*once*_ with the anathame... the same Temba who had taken out a Luna Wolves captain effortlessly just before fighting Horus. And he only did so because Horus got within very close range, trying a disarming strike that would have worked on anyone without a Nurgle follower's pain threshold/durability. It wasn't lack of fighting skills that cost Horus there, it was lack of knowledge of what he was actually fighting. I am quite certain that if Horus had known what the anathame truly was, and how dangerous it was, he would never have let Temba come close to touching him with it.


----------



## venomlust

Chompy Bits said:


> Temba managed to connect him _*once*_ with the anathame... the same Temba who had taken out a Luna Wolves captain effortlessly just before fighting Horus. And he only did so because Horus got within very close range, trying a disarming strike that would have worked on anyone without a Nurgle follower's pain threshold/durability. It wasn't lack of fighting skills that cost Horus there, it was lack of knowledge of what he was actually fighting. I am quite certain that if Horus had known what the anathame truly was, and how dangerous it was, he would never have let Temba come close to touching him with it.


Excuses excuses. You're a Horus apologist, that's what you are! :laugh:


----------



## Chompy Bits

venomlust said:


> Excuses excuses. You're a Horus apologist, that's what you are! :laugh:


Wow... your debating skills are astounding...

And just to be clear, that was sarcasm.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Beaviz81 said:


> Is this an attack on me or not? I'm a bit unsure now.


Don't be so sensitive. It's an attack on the silliest piece of fanfic ever to get through to a codex in my almost 25 years in the hobby. I'd be laughing at it if appeared in our home brew fluff section, and assume an over enthusiastic 12 year old wrote it. 

But let's not let it derail the thread. Let's just say that anything that happens thousands of years after the Heresy has no bearing on a discussion about Heresy era matters. :good:


----------



## Gret79

I thought about doing a list of primarch fights - then I thought again. It's not like we ever agree on who won which fight anyway...:grin:


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Gret79 said:


> I thought about doing a list of primarch fights - then I thought again. It's not like we ever agree on who won which fight anyway...:grin:


Fulgrim beat Ferrus, I think we can all agree, and Russ beat Magnus. The rest are open to debate.


----------



## Gret79

Khorne's Fist said:


> Fulgrim beat Ferrus, I think we can all agree, and Russ beat Magnus. The rest are open to debate.


Fulgrim 1 - Ferrus 0

If we try saying Russ beat Magnus, you'll attract the Magnus fans to the thread and all the anti-Russ/anti-wolves fans - Magnus wasn't trying, Russ had help, Russ cheated...


----------



## Chompy Bits

Gret79 said:


> Fulgrim 1 - Ferrus 0
> 
> If we try saying Russ beat Magnus, you'll attract the Magnus fans to the thread and all the anti-Russ/anti-wolves fans - Magnus wasn't trying, Russ had help, Russ cheated...


Well, regardless of whether Magnus wasn't trying, Russ had help etc. it doesn't change the end result of the fight though. In the end, only one primarch got back-breakered out of the two...

So it is still a win for Russ, regardless of the circumstances.

Like the saying goes, if you end up in a fair fight, you did something wrong. :laugh:


----------



## Gret79

I agree, but disagreements always seem to happen
I'm beginning to think the collective noun for 40k fans is 'an argument' :laugh:

For true shits and giggles, state that Russ beat Angron or vice versa


----------



## Chompy Bits

My only issue with the Russ/Magnus fight is why on earth a back breaker should be so devastating, when we have seen primarchs recover from far worse. Hell, as far as we know, primarchs don't even have conventional spinal chords... I'm not saying it wouldn't have incapacitated a primarchs long enough for their opponent to deliver a finishing blow, but the way Ahriman reacts you'd swear that Magnus would need a giant wheelchair for the rest of his life... :scratchhead:


----------



## Beaviz81

Didn't Sanguinius suffer that fate and actually recover from it during the Siege of Terra?


----------



## Chompy Bits

Beaviz81 said:


> Didn't Sanguinius suffer that fate and actually recover from it during the Siege of Terra?


Actually, it's the opposite. Sanguinius was the one who gave Ka'Bandha the back breaker during the Siege of Terra. Payback for when Ka'Bandha broke his legs on Signus.


----------



## Beaviz81

Yeah, just checked it. Ka Brandha broke Sanguinius' legs on Signum with a m not a s. But that's a very minor detail and you tend to be right about your fluff Chompy.


----------



## Gret79

Personally, I would've liked to see Sanguinius do a spinning piledriver on Ka'bandha. 
From Orbit.

That'd teach Ka'banda to have such a silly name.


----------



## Chompy Bits

Beaviz81 said:


> Yeah, just checked it. Ka Brandha broke Sanguinius' legs on Signum with a m not a s. But that's a very minor detail and you tend to be right about your fluff Chompy.


Not to be pedantic, but it _*is*_ Signus... Signus Prime to be exact. I have _Fear to Tread_ open in front of me right now.


----------



## venomlust

Chompy Bits said:


> Wow... your debating skills are astounding...
> 
> And just to be clear, that was sarcasm.


Ouch, sir. Must you wound so deep?



Khorne's Fist said:


> Don't be so sensitive. It's an attack on the silliest piece of fanfic ever to get through to a codex in my almost 25 years in the hobby. I'd be laughing at it if appeared in our home brew fluff section, and assume an over enthusiastic 12 year old wrote it.


No worries, my skin is thick. Clearly Mr. Chompy is very intelligent. So much so that the jovial nature of my reply was lost on him. Must have been the laughing smily face that made my intentions ambiguous. He must have outsmarted himself (and me, obviously).

Horus sux lawlz.


----------



## Chompy Bits

venomlust said:


> No worries, my skin is thick. Clearly Mr. Chompy is very intelligent. So much so that the jovial nature of my reply was lost on him. Must have been the laughing smily face that made my intentions ambiguous. He must have outsmarted himself (and me, obviously).
> 
> Horus sux lawlz.


Oh, I was very clear on your statement and the tone of it (as well as this one). I think *you* were the one who actually missed *my* point. How about making an argument to back up your claims about Horus... y'know, what people generally do when they try to get their point across in a debate.


----------



## venomlust

Chompy Bits said:


> Oh, I was very clear on your statement and the tone of it (as well as this one). I think *you* were the one who actually missed *my* point. How about making an argument to back up your claims about Horus... y'know, what people generally do when they try to get their point across in a debate.


Ooooookay... clearly there will be nothing approaching a sense of humor on your part. I might as well just leave this thread now and leave you to "debate" this monumentally important subject matter. Best of luck.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Khorne's Fist said:


> Don't know how anybody could pick Horus, we've seen next to nothing of him in combat at all, never mind against another primarchs.


Perhaps not, but we are aware that several Primarchs (and various other Space Marines) rated Horus as one of the most capable fighters. Their opinion should count for a lot.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Their opinion should count for a lot.


It does, but nowhere near the same as actually seeing the primarchs go against each other. Which is one thing he has yet to do.


----------



## Lux

Horus's strengths lied in his ability to inspire, and most importantly in leading. Horus was likely an average combatant in pure martial ability, however he likely melded his martial ability with that of his tactics and strategy. Furthermore Horus's actual combat abilities were likely very overrated due to the fact that he had never fought another primarch to the death, and from the sheer respect others had for him. This in turn caused Horus to be perceived by the common man as far superior then he actual was due to his charisma inflating his image, and due to the other primarchs never truly fighting with him during sparing. 

Horus held the greatest advantage in sparring with his brothers, which is the only indicator that anyone had to go off of to gauge which was best in martial ability. Sparring is not about being vicious, brutal, and or utilizing all of ones strengths as well as skill sets. Curze would have been handicapped during sparring as would Angron, Vulkan, Corax, Magnus, and many other primarchs. None of the prior mentioned primarchs would be able to fully capitalize on their strengths during a sparring match, for if they did it would no longer be a sparring match and would shift to a fight to the death. 

Horus's strengths lied in his versatility as well as his extreme charisma, he was average in tactics, average in strategy, average in martial combat, average in sheer strength, physical resilience, psychic powers, and was average in most sectors of intelligence. For those of you who do not know there are many different types of intelligence, of which just a few include naturalist intelligence, musical intelligence, logical intelligence, existential intelligence, interpersonal intelligence, kinesthetic intelligence, linguistic intelligence, intra-personal intelligence, spatial intelligence, and so on. Horus excelled in Interpersonal intelligence, this is why he was able to read others so well as well as why he could inspire so many to follow him. Contrastingly Angron was gifted in kinesthetic intelligence, and average in other sectors of intelligence.

Ultimately Horus is the epitome of the average primarch, yet it is his interpersonal intelligence that allows him to leverage his other average intelligence sectors in a very effective manner to appear far greater than he actually is.


----------



## Chompy Bits

Lux said:


> Horus held the greatest advantage in sparring with his brothers, which is the only indicator that anyone had to go off of to gauge which was best in martial ability. Sparring is not about being vicious, brutal, and or utilizing all of ones strengths as well as skill sets. Curze would have been handicapped during sparring as would Angron, Vulkan, Corax, Magnus, and many other primarchs. None of the prior mentioned primarchs would be able to fully capitalize on their strengths during a sparring match, for if they did it would no longer be a sparring match and would shift to a fight to the death.


So all the others would have been handicapped while sparring him but he wouldn't have had the same restrictions? Riiiiiiight. Also, being vicious and brutal has absolutely nothing to do with martial competence. And while not a definite way of proving something, sparring can indeed give you a very good idea of how capable someone is in a fight. I do martial arts and I spar with a lot of guys. We rarely go full out but, even when holding back, I can get a pretty good idea of who would actually be able to kick my ass when push comes to shove.



Lux said:


> Horus's strengths lied in his versatility as well as his extreme charisma, he was average in tactics, average in strategy, average in martial combat, average in sheer strength, physical resilience, psychic powers, and was average in most sectors of intelligence.


_*Any*_ proof to back up these claims about his apparent "average" abilities? He was literally regarded by pretty much all his brothers as one of, if not the best tactician amongst the primarchs, had arguably the best martial record and led arguably the most successful legion during the crusade. He did that by being average at tactics, strategy and martial ability? 



Lux said:


> Ultimately Horus is the epitome of the average primarch, yet it is his interpersonal intelligence that allows him to leverage his other average intelligence sectors in a very effective manner to appear far greater than he actually is.


Again, pretty much *all* the fluff we have about Horus contradicts what you've said in your post, with the exception of him being very charismatic.


----------



## Lux

Chompy Bits said:


> So all the others would have been handicapped while sparring him but he wouldn't have had the same restrictions? Riiiiiiight. Also, being vicious and brutal has absolutely nothing to do with martial competence. And while not a definite way of proving something, sparring can indeed give you a very good idea of how capable someone is in a fight. I do martial arts and I spar with a lot of guys. We rarely go full out but, even when holding back, I can get a pretty good idea of who would actually be able to kick my ass when push comes to shove.
> 
> 
> 
> _*Any*_ proof to back up these claims about his apparent "average" abilities? He was literally regarded by pretty much all his brothers as one of, if not the best tactician amongst the primarchs, had arguably the best martial record and led arguably the most successful legion during the crusade. He did that by being average at tactics, strategy and martial ability?
> 
> 
> 
> Again, pretty much *all* the fluff we have about Horus contradicts what you've said in your post, with the exception of him being very charismatic.


Horus is the epitome of average in relation to the primarchs, he has never displayed any exceptional tactics, and his strategies for the heresy were straight forward and average in their effect. He has been given featless accolades, his war record in part is due to him being found first and thus having first entry to the crusade market. 

So I ask you show me displays from the fluff that actually show concrete examples of his above average tactics, strategies, martial combat ability, physical advantages, psychic abilities. The only accolades he has are from the view points of a standard human, of which as prior stated his charisma causes others to view him greater then he is and thus inflates his reputation. All of them primarchs that have ever spoken about him praise him for his leadership, being a good general, and not for anything else. Furthermore all of the accolades assigned to him as being "The best of the primarchs" has never been backed up by any concrete examples, it is simply just praise due to his crushing charisma that makes near anyone love him.

Horus is average


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lux said:


> So I ask you show me displays from the fluff that actually show concrete examples of his above average tactics, strategies, martial combat ability, physical advantages, psychic abilities.


I would ask you to show us displays that show concrete examples which demonstrate the post-human tactical or strategic abilities of any of the Primarchs. There may be a couple of examples within the lore but mostly we are just informed of their prowess rather than actually shown it. For example, even the The Lion's much lauded success on Diamat was an obvious strategic move to make given the information he was privy to. We even see Primarchs making (seemingly obvious) strategic errors such as Ferrus Manus refusing to wait for reinforcements (against the advise of Corax & Vulkan) before and during the assault of Isstvan V. 

My point is that, for the writers, masterful (Primarch-level) strategic or tactical minutiae is next-to-impossible to portray because anything they explain in detail is automatically comprehended by us as the readers. Thus in order to illustrate the Primarchs' superhuman ability they have to refrain from properly illustrating their strategy. A good example of this is Alpharius' clearing of the Kayvas Belt, _Fear to Tread_ doesn't actually tell us how Alpharius was able to clear the Greenskins in such short a time, even Sanguinius was baffled by it. Thats how I see it.

Horus was a great military commander, perhaps the best of the Primarchs, I would challenge you to provide evidence to the contrary. He is also consistently portrayed as one of the most capable physical combatants amongst the Primarchs, something which cannot reasonably be explained because of his charisma. Even Corax, the only individual I am aware of that actively disliked Horus, ranked him and Sanguinius as the only ones capable of defeating Angron in personal combat.


----------



## Chompy Bits

Lux said:


> Horus is the epitome of average in relation to the primarchs, he has never displayed any exceptional tactics, and his strategies for the heresy were straight forward and average in their effect. He has been given featless accolades, his war record in part is due to him being found first and thus having first entry to the crusade market.
> 
> So I ask you show me displays from the fluff that actually show concrete examples of his above average tactics, strategies, martial combat ability, physical advantages, psychic abilities. The only accolades he has are from the view points of a standard human, of which as prior stated his charisma causes others to view him greater then he is and thus inflates his reputation. All of them primarchs that have ever spoken about him praise him for his leadership, being a good general, and not for anything else. Furthermore all of the accolades assigned to him as being "The best of the primarchs" has never been backed up by any concrete examples, it is simply just praise due to his crushing charisma that makes near anyone love him.
> 
> Horus is average


Firstly, I find it almost laughable that you demand others to show you displays from the fluff to back up their arguments, when you have never done anyone else the same courtesy. But ok, I'll bite...



Lux said:


> he has never displayed any exceptional tactics, and his strategies for the heresy were straight forward and average in their effect. He has been given featless accolades


In the first chapter of _Brotherhood of the Storm_ they mention Ullanor and how it was Horus and his legion who had turned the tide when it looked like the Imperial forces would have been overwhelmed. This is later supported in chapter 6 of _Fear to Tread_ when it is mentioned that Horus, with a feint strategy he devised, delivered the pivotal blow in the Ullanor crusade that lead to Imperial victory. Not to mention he was the one who slew the Warlord and threw his body from the top of the Warlord's stronghold. 

The beginning of _Fear to Tread_ also details a campaign the Luna Wolves and Blood Angels executed against beings called the Nephilim on a planet called Melchior. It is clearly stated that Horus devised the plan, a plan which also involved feints, strategic thinking, turning what the Nephilim believed the Imperium's weakness into a strength and using it to their advantage to draw out the Nephilim, which resulted in the complete and utter defeat of the aliens.

And that's not even considering the blow Horus struck at Isstvan, one that crippled 3 loyalist legions and saw the death of Ferrus Manus.

So your claims about the _average_ affect of his tactics are simply not true.



Lux said:


> The only accolades he has are from the view points of a standard human... All of them primarchs that have ever spoken about him praise him for his leadership, being a good general, and not for anything else.


Firstly, If you think that being a good general only involves being charismatic, you clearly have no grasp of war or executing military campaigns... none at all. 

Not to mention your statements are not even _remotely_ true. He is acknowledged by most of his brothers as being one of, if not the greatest amongst them. And the Emperor himself named Horus Warmaster, not any standard humans.

In _Angel Exterminatus_ when Perturabo and Fulgrim discuss Perturabo's place, he specifically mentions lacking the "warpcraft of Magnus" or the "war-craft of Horus". We know Magnus was the most gifted and knowledgeable psyker amongst the primarchs hence why Perturabo mentions him. And then he lists Horus (not Dorn, Guilliman, the Lion) and his skill at warcraft.

In _Betrayer_ Lorgar himself describes Horus as having balance in all his talents, but also, like Sanguinius, *excelling* in all of them. Which is why Lorgar thinks the Emperor chose Horus as Warmaster. Angron himself later acknowledges Horus as a skilled commander, and Angron dislikes Horus, describing him as an "arrogant, preening bastard". There are also mentions in chapter 10 of when the World Eaters discover their primarch, and whether he would be a "warrior and general to rival Horus, Guilliman, Dorn or the Lion", which shows that Horus was widely acknowledged and accepted of being one of the greatest amongst his brothers.

And then we have Corax, in _Flight of the Raven_ classing Horus, with Angron and Sanguinius, as arguably the 3 top combatants amongst the primarchs. And in chapter 2 of _Deliverance Lost_ regards Horus as one of the greatest strategists in the Imperium. And we know that Corax and the Raven Guard served alongside Horus and his legion for a long time, and that he also did *not* like or see eye-to-eye with Horus, so he is arguably the most objective source we have available.

And I got all this from only a handful of novels. There is a lot more material spread out across the HH series, but I am not going to go look through every single novel I posses just to prove this point. There is *plenty* of evidence within the HH fluff to justify Horus's reputation, if you only bother looking for it. 

As to why we don't have arguably _better_ examples, detailing specific strategies used etc. CotE sums it up perfectly...



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> My point is that, for the writers, masterful (Primarch-level) strategic or tactical minutiae is next-to-impossible to portray because anything they explain in detail is automatically comprehended by us as the readers. Thus in order to illustrate the Primarchs' superhuman ability they have to refrain from properly illustrating their strategy. A good example of this is Alpharius' clearing of the Kayvas Belt, Fear to Tread doesn't actually tell us how Alpharius was able to clear the Greenskins in such short a time, even Sanguinius was baffled by it. Thats how I see it.





Lux said:


> Horus is average


So to sum up, no he isn't. Now I have provided fluff examples to justify my claims about Horus. Now how about you back up your claims, _using the fluff_, to disprove me. Show me all the examples that depict Horus as only having charisma going for him, and using it to over-inflate his reputation.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Chompy Bits said:


> So to sum up, no he isn't. Now I have provided fluff examples to justify my claims about Horus. Now how about you back up your claims, using the fluff, to disprove me. Show me all the examples that depict Horus as only having charisma going for him, and using it to over-inflate his reputation.


Chompy Bits: 1
Lux: 0

But being a master strategist has absolutely no bearing on the discussion at hand, who'd beat who in a straight up scrap So far we have no proof of Horus' combat prowess against a primarch. Even when he does eventually face one he is massively boosted by his Chaos gifts.


----------



## theurge33

Chompy Bits said:


> Firstly, I find it almost laughable that you demand others to show you displays from the fluff to back up their arguments, when you have never done anyone else the same courtesy. But ok, I'll bite...
> 
> 
> 
> In the first chapter of _Brotherhood of the Storm_ they mention Ullanor and how it was Horus and his legion who had turned the tide when it looked like the Imperial forces would have been overwhelmed. This is later supported in chapter 6 of _Fear to Tread_ when it is mentioned that Horus, with a feint strategy he devised, delivered the pivotal blow in the Ullanor crusade that lead to Imperial victory. Not to mention he was the one who slew the Warlord and threw his body from the top of the Warlord's stronghold.
> 
> The beginning of _Fear to Tread_ also details a campaign the Luna Wolves and Blood Angels executed against beings called the Nephilim on a planet called Melchior. It is clearly stated that Horus devised the plan, a plan which also involved feints, strategic thinking, turning what the Nephilim believed the Imperium's weakness into a strength and using it to their advantage to draw out the Nephilim, which resulted in the complete and utter defeat of the aliens.
> 
> And that's not even considering the blow Horus struck at Isstvan, one that crippled 3 loyalist legions and saw the death of Ferrus Manus.
> 
> So your claims about the _average_ affect of his tactics are simply not true.
> 
> 
> 
> Firstly, If you think that being a good general only involves being charismatic, you clearly have no grasp of war or executing military campaigns... none at all.
> 
> Not to mention your statements are not even _remotely_ true. He is acknowledged by most of his brothers as being one of, if not the greatest amongst them. And the Emperor himself named Horus Warmaster, not any standard humans.
> 
> In _Angel Exterminatus_ when Perturabo and Fulgrim discuss Perturabo's place, he specifically mentions lacking the "warpcraft of Magnus" or the "war-craft of Horus". We know Magnus was the most gifted and knowledgeable psyker amongst the primarchs hence why Perturabo mentions him. And then he lists Horus (not Dorn, Guilliman, the Lion) and his skill at warcraft.
> 
> In _Betrayer_ Lorgar himself describes Horus as having balance in all his talents, but also, like Sanguinius, *excelling* in all of them. Which is why Lorgar thinks the Emperor chose Horus as Warmaster. Angron himself later acknowledges Horus as a skilled commander, and Angron dislikes Horus, describing him as an "arrogant, preening bastard". There are also mentions in chapter 10 of when the World Eaters discover their primarch, and whether he would be a "warrior and general to rival Horus, Guilliman, Dorn or the Lion", which shows that Horus was widely acknowledged and accepted of being one of the greatest amongst his brothers.
> 
> And then we have Corax, in _Flight of the Raven_ classing Horus, with Angron and Sanguinius, as arguably the 3 top combatants amongst the primarchs. And in chapter 2 of _Deliverance Lost_ regards Horus as one of the greatest strategists in the Imperium. And we know that Corax and the Raven Guard served alongside Horus and his legion for a long time, and that he also did *not* like or see eye-to-eye with Horus, so he is arguably the most objective source we have available.
> 
> And I got all this from only a handful of novels. There is a lot more material spread out across the HH series, but I am not going to go look through every single novel I posses just to prove this point. There is *plenty* of evidence within the HH fluff to justify Horus's reputation, if you only bother looking for it.
> 
> As to why we don't have arguably _better_ examples, detailing specific strategies used etc. CotE sums it up perfectly...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So to sum up, no he isn't. Now I have provided fluff examples to justify my claims about Horus. Now how about you back up your claims, _using the fluff_, to disprove me. Show me all the examples that depict Horus as only having charisma going for him, and using it to over-inflate his reputation.



I also remember in Know No Fear, Guilliman stating that Horus was one of like 5 primarchs he would go to battle with (Horus, Sang, Leman, Dorn, Ferrus?).

I have a feeling that we will get a display of Horus's might soon enough, whether it be against another primarch, demon, titan etc. that will make everyone realize his might and anticipate the battle against the emporer so much more. Think of everything that we have gotten so far. No way they aren't going to build up Horus as the best of the primarchs before then.


----------



## Chompy Bits

Khorne's Fist said:


> So far we have no proof of Horus' combat prowess against a primarch.


Correct me if I'm wrong but, as far as I know, the same can be said for Sanguinius quite frankly. Yet no one ever seems to question it when his name gets thrown out there.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Chompy Bits said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but, as far as I know, the same can be said for Sanguinius quite frankly. Yet no one ever seems to question it when his name gets thrown out there.


You are correct. Going toe to toe with a greater demon does go in the plus column though.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Khorne's Fist said:


> You are correct. Going toe to toe with a greater demon does go in the plus column though.


Similarly, Lorgar bested An'ggrath the Unbound (within the Eye of Terror no less) but no one claims he was one of the most capable warriors amongst the Primarchs. 

We accept that Sanguinius was one of the most capable fighters because we are told that he was (without really being shown). Why people can't also accept that Horus was amongst the best warriors is beyond me.


----------



## MidnightSun

theurge33 said:


> I also remember in Know No Fear, Guilliman stating that Horus was one of like 5 primarchs he would go to battle with (Horus, Sang, Leman, Dorn, Ferrus?).


I think you're referring to the 'Dauntless Few', which consisted of Ferrus, Dorn, Sanguinius and Russ. He stated that with any one of them and their respective Legions, he could beat any foe, and defend the Imperium from any theoretical.

As Lorgar said, you can always rely on Roboute to sound like a giant pompous arsehole.


----------



## Chompy Bits

Khorne's Fist said:


> You are correct. Going toe to toe with a greater demon does go in the plus column though.


Yes, he beat a greater daemon. But as you yourself pointed out, this is a fight between _primarchs_. And as things stand, even greater daemons have a piss poor record when it comes to fighting any of the Emperor's sons. In fact...



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Similarly, Lorgar bested An'ggrath the Unbound (within the Eye of Terror no less) but no one claims he was one of the most capable warriors amongst the Primarchs.


And this is also the same Lorgar who decades later, after having some time to develop his abilities more, still nearly got killed by Corax. Greater daemons (and other unspecified, yet powerful ones) have become primarch punching bags. Whenever the authors want to highlight how powerful the primarchs are they throw a greater and/or powerful daemon into the mix to get beat up. So victories over them have lost much of their impact and meaning.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> We accept that Sanguinius was one of the most capable fighters because we are told that he was (without really being shown). Why people can't also accept that Horus was amongst the best warriors is beyond me.


Agreed 100%

And then people also use the fight between Temba + Anathame and Horus as a reason to go "Horus sucks", or something along those lines. A fight he won while sustaining a single injury that would, from any other weapon, not have given a primarch even a moment of pause. A fight he arrived at already injured, after being tossed around the ship as it was busy collapsing. A fight where he faced a type of opponent and weapon he had never encountered before, and still managed to adapt and come out victorious. And a fight in which we have absolutely no basis to judge how _any_ of the other primarchs would have fared. For all we know, any of Horus's brothers would have been outright killed during that encounter.


----------



## emporershand89

Please people........we all know that the clown down the street was the best close quarters fighter ever. I mean how many Primarchs did he sucker into laughing, then cut their heads off while they did so. :biggrin:


On a serious note I still think Leman Russ is the baddest of the bad. It is true that Sanguinius was a great warrior, Fulgrim a great dueler, Mortarian the master of strength, and Angron an angry beast of pure Fury but it matters not. The man has tanks named after him, a ship named after him, numerous fortressses and Hives named in his honor. He out ate and out drank the Emporer single-handedly! Beat Magnus, survived a fight with Angron (one of the few), and beat to daemonic princes into submission. 

Serious this guys rap sheet is almost perfect except the sucker punch he recieved from El'Johnson.


----------



## Chompy Bits

emporershand89 said:


> On a serious note I still think Leman Russ is the baddest of the bad. It is true that Sanguinius was a great warrior, Fulgrim a great dueler, Mortarian the master of strength, and Angron an angry beast of pure Fury but it matters not. The man has tanks named after him, a ship named after him, numerous fortressses and Hives named in his honor. He out ate and out drank the Emporer single-handedly! Beat Magnus, survived a fight with Angron (one of the few), and beat to daemonic princes into submission.


I really don't mean to offend, but your argument baffles me. This is a thread debating who the best _fighter_ is amongst the primarchs. You list a bunch of potentially relevant things about other primarchs, and then claim they don't matter. Then post a bunch of things totally irrelevant to fighting capability, such as eating, drinking and having shit named after you, and use that as part of your argument to back your statement. Also, he _barely_ beat Magnus (I am of the opinion that a fight between them can go either way, depending on the circumstances), and lost to Angron. And which daemon princes are you referring to here? I personally don't recall Russ beating up on any daemon princes, but maybe it happened in a piece of fluff I have yet to encounter.


----------



## theurge33

MidnightSun said:


> I think you're referring to the 'Dauntless Few', which consisted of Ferrus, Dorn, Sanguinius and Russ. He stated that with any one of them and their respective Legions, he could beat any foe, and defend the Imperium from any theoretical.
> 
> As Lorgar said, you can always rely on Roboute to sound like a giant pompous arsehole.


 
Yes, thank you. I didn't take it as arrogant though, just as his personal reflection of his trusted brothers. Plenty of other primarchs reflect in the same way...and to be honest, he was probably right.


----------



## GoRy

In Deliverance Lost, Corax states that in sparring matches he was a match for Horus and further considered himself the better of both Curze and Lorgar, reasoning he lost to Curze on Istvaan by losing himself in battle and losing awareness of what was happening around himself by trying to go for the kill with Lorgar.

Most lists put Corax just outside the top few. This would either suggest Horus too would not be one of the top fighters, or that Corax is slightly under considered.

From the HH books it certainly looks like Sanguinius, Fulgrim and Angron are the top 3 pre-demonic ability but virtually every other Primarch could break through if conditions were right.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

GoRy said:


> From the HH books it certainly looks like Sanguinius, Fulgrim and Angron are the top 3 pre-demonic ability but virtually every other Primarch could break through if conditions were right.


After reading Scars I'd put the Khan up there in the top tier as well.


----------



## Chompy Bits

GoRy said:


> In Deliverance Lost, Corax states that in sparring matches he was a match for Horus and further considered himself the better of both Curze and Lorgar, reasoning he lost to Curze on Istvaan by losing himself in battle and losing awareness of what was happening around himself by trying to go for the kill with Lorgar.


Firstly, Corax never _lost_ to Curze. They never fought. The extent of their physical interaction was Curze blocking a blow Corax meant for Lorgar. That's it.

Also, Corax says at one point he and Horus were a match at sparring, but on Isstvan, during a life or death situation, he straight up admits that Horus stood a chance of beating Angron where he wouldn't. Which suggests that he still views Horus as his better in terms of fighting.



GoRy said:


> From the HH books it certainly looks like Sanguinius, Fulgrim and Angron are the top 3 pre-demonic ability but virtually every other Primarch could break through if conditions were right.


And again we have Sanguinius listed, with no primarch combat feats to back the claims, but Horus gets shunted, when he has just as much acknowledgement as a skilled warrior throughout the series as the Angel has. I really don't get it.

Also, I really don't see what makes Fulgrim so special. He beat Ferrus, but one could argue that it was the Laeran blade who gave him that win.



Khorne's Fist said:


> After reading Scars I'd put the Khan up there in the top tier as well.


Why?



He fights evenly with a primarch who has never been noted as being particularly gifted in combat, compared to their brothers. And Mortarion had arguably held the advantage at the point where he and his forces decided to withdraw.


----------



## Lost&Damned

Chompy Bits said:


> Why?


I would say for two reasons, regardless, who cares if he was never noted as a particularly good fighter, both the Khan and mortarion were always on sidelines and were both relatively unknown.

-surprise, no one really knows what to expect with him, what he is capable of or what he could do, the others fulgrim, guilliman, horus etc..... have well documented and widely understood fighting styles.

-the khan had so much trouble with mortarion (well more so than would otherwise be the case) because he was enclosed in a small space, he works best in an open space.

-He loves speed,he is the fastest, speed kills.


----------



## Chompy Bits

Lost&Damned said:


> I would say for two reasons, regardless, who cares if he was never noted as a particularly good fighter, both the Khan and mortarion were always on sidelines and were both relatively unknown.
> 
> -surprise, no one really knows what to expect with him, what he is capable of or what he could do, the others fulgrim, guilliman, horus etc..... have well documented and widely understood fighting styles.


Surprise only counts for so much. And as for the others all having "well documented and widely understood fighting styles", that is a massive assumption on your part. He simply states during an exchange with Fulgrim that he _supposedly_ knows what Fulgrim is capable of because Fulgrim likes to brag.



Lost&Damned said:


> -the khan had so much trouble with mortarion (well more so than would otherwise be the case) because he was enclosed in a small space, he works best in an open space.


So we know of one distinct _weakness_ in the Khan's fighting style... how does that put him in the top tier?



Lost&Damned said:


> -He loves speed,he is the fastest, speed kills.


Where is it stated that he is the fastest? He is faster than Mortarion, and, along with his legion, greatly values speed. But that does not mean he is the fastest amongst the primarchs by any stretch of the imagination. And Mortarion seemed more than capable of countering the Khan's speed with his own strength.


----------



## Lost&Damned

Chompy Bits said:


> Surprise only counts for so much. And as for the others all having "well documented and widely understood fighting styles", that is a massive assumption on your part. He simply states during an exchange with Fulgrim that he _supposedly_ knows what Fulgrim is capable of because Fulgrim likes to brag.


brag?only?
lets look at for instance Guilliman, he wrote in a book pretty much exactly what he would do for the vast majority of tactical situations, i'll be damned if fulgrim hadnt taken every single opportunity to advertise, compile and distribute his every strike, just like how he shared his own legions battle information.
In contrast, look at how the khan uses the Alpha legions ignorance about how he fights in void battles for his own advantage, turns it from what would have been a stalemate to a total victory simply by using his factor of surprise and capitalizing on the ignorance of others, no one is ignorant of fulgrims methods and abilities, he has spent the best part of the crusade flaunting them.



Chompy Bits said:


> So we know of one distinct _weakness_ in the Khan's fighting style... how does that put him in the top tier?


im just saying im sure he would have a far better time if he had more room to maneuver, regardless he performed well toe to toe despite being disadvantaged , though he did sustain injury due to the fact he was surprised at feruss's death.




Chompy Bits said:


> Where is it stated that he is the fastest? He is faster than Mortarion, and, along with his legion, greatly values speed. But that does not mean he is the fastest amongst the primarchs by any stretch of the imagination. And Mortarion seemed more than capable of countering the Khan's speed with his own strength.


look at what any primarch values the most in regards to fighting style, then look at what the legion specializes in, it's obvious, then those same legions and primarchs are the best at their tactical niche, then couple that with the fact he himself more than anyone else values speed, was made for speed (like how mortarion was made for physical endurance), it is self evident.

I dont know about Mortarion countering, seems like he just took the hits (im not saying that against mortarion)seemed to me the only hit he managed was due the surprise he gained from telling the khan about ferrus's death


----------



## GoRy

Chompy Bits said:


> And again we have Sanguinius listed, with no primarch combat feats to back the claims, but Horus gets shunted, when he has just as much acknowledgement as a skilled warrior throughout the series as the Angel has. I really don't get it.


I agree 200%. yet again and again, he's referenced by other Primarchs in the HH books as being possibly the finest warrior. Guess we'll have to wait for a BA book.


----------



## Lux

Show me the quote Chompy Bits where it states Corax was a equal match for Horus in sparring, because there has never been a single source that states this. It is a forum myth along with the claim that only 3 primarchs bested horus in sparring, no source for either of these claims exist.

Furthermore the exchange between Corax and Curze was more than blocking a single a strike, it states that Curze effortlessly lifted his claw upward in defiance of Corax who was with all his might pushing downward to kill Lorgar. So at the very least from that exchange we learned that Curze far outclasses Corax in strength, as he was effortlessly lifting Corax's downward pushing strike of which Corax had the momentum and leverage advantage and still was overpowered.


----------



## Lost&Damned

Lux said:


> Furthermore the exchange between Corax and Curze was more than blocking a single a strike, it states that Curze effortlessly lifted his claw upward in defiance of Corax who was with all his might pushing downward to kill Lorgar. So at the very least from that exchange we learned that Curze far outclasses Corax in strength, as he was effortlessly lifting Corax's downward pushing strike of which Corax had the momentum and leverage advantage and still was overpowered.


Bearing in mind Corax had already been fighting for quite a while against lorgar, in addition to the brunt of lorgars possessed space marines.


The foul irony of the moment settled on his shoulders, feeling
grotesquely apt. He couldn’t move his legs. His body was a temple
to nothing but pain. He could barely even see his executioner,
for his psychic efforts had left him quivering with both weakness
and a vision-blurring ache in his mind. A faint outline met his
gaze, the blurred image of scythe-blades raised high.
‘Do it!’ Lorgar screamed at his brother.
The claw fell, and struck opposing metal.
CORAX LOOKED TO meet eyes as black as his, in a face as pale as
his own. His claw strained against a mirroring weapon, both sets
of blades scraping as they ground against each other. One claw
seeking to fall and kill, the other unyielding in its rising defence.

so no, curze does not far outclass corax in strength, indeed, given the context, nothing shows he outclasses him at all.
In addition, corax was hesitant and he tarried in time, so also in speed, therefore also of strength in the blow.


----------



## Vaz

Lost&Damned, don't forget to quote that bit reading between the lines and to change your perspective and open your mind and that the 40k universe is spewing from Lux's microcosm after a cranial impact left her mind detached and cucumber elephants.


----------



## Lux

> *The foul irony of the moment settled on his shoulders, feeling grotesquely apt. He couldn't move his legs. His body was a temple to nothing but pain. He could barely even see his executioner, for his psychic efforts had left him quivering with both weakness and a vision-blurring ache in his mind. A faint outline met his gaze, the blurred image of scythe-blades raised high.
> 
> ‘Do it!' Lorgar screamed at his brother.
> 
> The claw fell, and struck opposing metal.
> 
> Corax looked to meet eyes as black as his, in a face as pale as his own. His claw strained against a mirroring weapon, both sets of blades scraping as they ground against each other. One claw seeking to fall and kill, the other unyielding in its rising defence.
> 
> Where the Raven Guard primarch's features were fierce with effort, the other face wore a grin. It was a smile both taut and mirthless - a dead man's smile, once his lips surrendered to rigor mortis.
> 
> ‘Corax,' said the other primarch.
> 
> ‘Curze,' Corax said the name as the curse it was.
> 
> ‘Look into my eyes,' said the progenitor of the Night Lords Legion, ‘and see your death.'
> 
> Corax sought to wrench his claw free, but Curze's second gauntlet closed on his brother's wrist. ‘No,' Curze's laughter as was joyless as his smile. ‘Do not fly away, little raven. Stay. We are not finished, you and I.'
> 
> ‘Konrad,' Corax tried. ‘Why have you done this?'
> 
> Curze ignored the plea. He turned his void-like eyes on the prone Lorgar, with disgust written plain across his carcass face. ‘Rise from your knees, you accursed coward.'
> 
> Lorgar sought to do just that, using his brother's midnight-blue armour as a crutch to haul himself to his feet. Curze bared his sharpened teeth. ‘You are the foulest weakling I have ever seen, Lorgar.'
> 
> Corax was not idle as this exchange took place. He fired his flight pack, burning his fuel reserves to escape Curze's grip.*


From this we see that Curze effortlessly lifted Corax downward striking blow, Corax had the momentum and leverage advantage. It also clearly states that Curze was unyielding in his rising defense, not only did he stop Corax downward momentum he was continuously lifting it against Corax pushing it down. 

Curze then grabbed Corax by the wrist and Corax was unable to escape by his own strength, he had to burn the remainder of his jet fuel to use the momentum to escape Curze's grip.

So yes Curze effortlessly out classed Corax in strength of pushing, and in strength of grip.


----------



## Stormxlr

I feel really sad how Dark Angels are so overlooked in HH novel's and in newer fluff aswell. As well as Lion never being depicted properly. He was an excellent knight and tactician. He survived as a baby on a death world next to Eye of Terror until his adulthood and then in 10 years cleaned up the whole planet.


----------



## theurge33

Lux said:


> Show me the quote Chompy Bits where it states Corax was a equal match for Horus in sparring, because there has never been a single source that states this. It is a forum myth along with the claim that only 3 primarchs bested horus in sparring, no source for either of these claims exist.
> 
> Furthermore the exchange between Corax and Curze was more than blocking a single a strike, it states that Curze effortlessly lifted his claw upward in defiance of Corax who was with all his might pushing downward to kill Lorgar. So at the very least from that exchange we learned that Curze far outclasses Corax in strength, as he was effortlessly lifting Corax's downward pushing strike of which Corax had the momentum and leverage advantage and still was overpowered.


 Pg 39 of the paperback of Deliverence Lost states "Physically, Horus and Corax had proved an even match for each other in their mock duels and wrestling bouts."


----------



## Lux

theurge33 said:


> Pg 39 of the paperback of Deliverence Lost states "Physically, Horus and Corax had proved an even match for each other in their mock duels and wrestling bouts."


WHAT!? IS THIS TRUE? This is....a shocking revelation.

Even so they are merely a physical match for one another, it states nothing about being equals in combat which is more than physicality. Otherwise Corax would not think that Horus could beat Angron, while he himself would most surely lose with no chance of victory.

So no, they are not equals in combat.


----------



## Chompy Bits

Lost&Damned;1553217 said:


> brag?only?
> lets look at for instance Guilliman, he wrote in a book pretty much exactly what he would do for the vast majority of tactical situations, i'll be damned if fulgrim hadnt taken every single opportunity to advertise, compile and distribute his every strike, just like how he shared his own legions battle information.
> In contrast, look at how the khan uses the Alpha legions ignorance about how he fights in void battles for his own advantage, turns it from what would have been a stalemate to a total victory simply by using his factor of surprise and capitalizing on the ignorance of others, no one is ignorant of fulgrims methods and abilities, he has spent the best part of the crusade flaunting them.


The codex Guilliman started to properly compile during the Heresy? The one detailing _Legion_ warfare and tactics, not primarch fighting styles? The one, given the Khan's nature, he was probably ignorant to, and wouldn't even have given a shit about, in all likelihood, if he had? And yes, I call that bragging by Fulgrim. Bragging on the scale of a primarch, but still bragging.

And the tactics you described by the Khan are not actually so unknown to all. Horus uses the _zao_ during _The Wolf of Ash and Fire_, claiming that the Khan taught it to him. Granted, it takes them 5 minutes where it took the White Scars 5 seconds, but still, it shows White Scars tactics are not totally secret. And Russ, who doesn't even seem the know the Khan well, or be on good terms with him, seemed to have a good idea of what the Khan is capable with his sword, so his own abilities aren't that unknown either.



Lost&Damned;1553217 said:


> im just saying im sure he would have a far better time if he had more room to maneuver, regardless he performed well toe to toe despite being disadvantaged , though he did sustain injury due to the fact he was surprised at feruss's death.


And I'm saying that he has a clear disadvantage that some other gifted warrior, a primarch for example, could exploit once they discovered it. And he took way more than one hit. In the aftermath it still describes that his wounds (plural) took longer than normal for him to heal, and that he now has scars (plural) from his encounter with Mortarion. 



Lost&Damned;1553217 said:


> look at what any primarch values the most in regards to fighting style, then look at what the legion specializes in, it's obvious, then those same legions and primarchs are the best at their tactical niche, then couple that with the fact he himself more than anyone else values speed, was made for speed (like how mortarion was made for physical endurance), *it is self evident*.


Not really. Again you are applying a legion preference to a primarchs fighting ability. The fact that the Khan values speed is a testament to how he grew up and the tactics that were widely used on that planet. Like almost all the primarchs, the nature of his homeworld greatly influenced how he would come to perceive the waging of war. The speed of the White Scars in how they operate comes from technological modifications to their ships etc. and adapting and honing that type of warfare since the Khan took over the legion. And we do not *know* whether he was "made for speed". Magnus even states in a conversation with the Khan that he had actually been destined to land on Chemos and Fulgrim on Chogoris, but someone/something interfered. Vulkan had ships that were also geared towards durability, but does that make him more physically durable than Mortarion (and I am actually talking about physical ability to take damage, not heal from it)? Saying the Khan is the fastest because his legion had the fastest ships and valued speed the most is not much of an argument IMO.



Lost&Damned;1553217 said:


> I dont know about Mortarion countering, seems like he just took the hits (im not saying that against mortarion)seemed to me the only hit he managed was due the surprise he gained from telling the khan about ferrus's death


He did counter them using his own strengths/skills. They still describe it as him robbing blows of their strength, by sucking their power "like a leech". He wasn't as fast as the Khan, but far stronger physically, and more durable. So he used that to his advantage like the Khan used his speed. And as I already pointed out, the Khan did take more than one hit.



Lux said:


> Furthermore the exchange between Corax and Curze was more than blocking a single a strike, it states that Curze effortlessly lifted his claw upward in defiance of Corax who was with all his might pushing downward to kill Lorgar. So at the very least from that exchange we learned that Curze far outclasses Corax in strength, as he was effortlessly lifting Corax's downward pushing strike of which Corax had the momentum and leverage advantage and still was overpowered.


So an exhausted Corax struggled in a test of strength against a fresh Night Haunter? That still does not mean that Corax _lost_ a fight to Curze, which was the point I was making. Also, where does it state that Curze blocks Corax _effortlessly_. He wore a "grim" smile, but that is all we know. He is arguably the most gifted of the primarchs where it comes to psychological warfare, so in all likelihood he tried to keep his face neutral in order to try and unnerve Corax.


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## theurge33

Lux said:


> WHAT!? IS THIS TRUE? This is....a shocking revelation.
> 
> Even so they are merely a physical match for one another, it states nothing about being equals in combat which is more than physicality. Otherwise Corax would not think that Horus could beat Angron, while he himself would most surely lose with no chance of victory.
> 
> So no, they are not equals in combat.


I never said they were equals, just referencing where the train of thought comes from. Corax states himself that Horus, Sanguinius and Angron were who he thought were the most gifted in combat.


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## Chompy Bits

Thing is though with regards to all this, yes, I personally believe that some primarchs do in fact have an edge in combat over others. But, and as I and a few others have said before, the differences are so small that the circumstances under which any duel between primarchs takes place can heavily influence the results. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that in the vast majority of cases, the circumstances/terrain/conditions of the fight would in all likelihood be the deciding factor. 

Just look at how close duels between them always are, even if one ends up victorious. The most one-sided fight so far was probably the one between Corax and Lorgar, and even Lorgar managed to last a fair while and get a few hits in. Fulgrim and Ferrus, a close battle. Khan and Mortartion, also very close and undecided. Magnus and Russ, another close one. The Lion and Curze have also both been matched extremely closely in all their encounters. Even Angron had a hard time with both Guilliman and Russ, despite the fact that he beat them both. 

The fact that the primarchs are generally so close to each other in martial ability means that the specifics of any duel can either greatly enhance or totally negate whatever advantages one might hold over the other. Take the Khan, as mentioned previously, for example. In a tight, cramped area, he would have a much harder time than he would in a wide open space. Angron also might be able to beat most other primarchs in an open arena, but how well would he do, for example, in a dense, dark forest facing the likes of someone like Curze or Corax? Where speed, stealth and the ability to strike quickly and fade away again would be far more useful than a conventional approach to fighting. Corax himself was convinced that Angron would kill him in a straight up duel, but if you put Corax on home turf and allow him to play to his strengths, I think the end result could be very different.

But that is just my personal take on the matter.


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## Lux

Chompy Bits said:


> Thing is though with regards to all this, yes, I personally believe that some primarchs do in fact have an edge in combat over others. But, and as I and a few others have said before, the differences are so small that the circumstances under which any duel between primarchs takes place can heavily influence the results. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that in the vast majority of cases, the circumstances/terrain/conditions of the fight would in all likelihood be the deciding factor.
> 
> Just look at how close duels between them always are, even if one ends up victorious. The most one-sided fight so far was probably the one between Corax and Lorgar, and even Lorgar managed to last a fair while and get a few hits in. Fulgrim and Ferrus, a close battle. Khan and Mortartion, also very close and undecided. Magnus and Russ, another close one. The Lion and Curze have also both been matched extremely closely in all their encounters. Even Angron had a hard time with both Guilliman and Russ, despite the fact that he beat them both.
> 
> The fact that the primarchs are generally so close to each other in martial ability means that the specifics of any duel can either greatly enhance or totally negate whatever advantages one might hold over the other. Take the Khan, as mentioned previously, for example. In a tight, cramped area, he would have a much harder time than he would in a wide open space. Angron also might be able to beat most other primarchs in an open arena, but how well would he do, for example, in a dense, dark forest facing the likes of someone like Curze or Corax? Where speed, stealth and the ability to strike quickly and fade away again would be far more useful than a conventional approach to fighting. Corax himself was convinced that Angron would kill him in a straight up duel, but if you put Corax on home turf and allow him to play to his strengths, I think the end result could be very different.
> 
> But that is just my personal take on the matter.


Yes but some primarchs have undeniable advantages, as we saw in the battle between the Dandy Hawk versus the Prime Leech. Some advantages are just too great in direct combat to be countered by skill, and or environment.


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## Malus Darkblade

Lux, are those the names of the two lost primarchs?


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## nate187

Sanguinius
Angron/Russ
Magnus/Conrad/Lion
Horus/Corax/Khan/Fulgrim/Guilliman


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## Andytwo

I never considered the Khan a high tier fighting primarch, but Scars changed my mind. We'll never see the Khan fight Fulgrim, too bad.


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## Muhr

Lorgar explicitly states in Betrayer that the only primarchs who had the power to possibly stand up to Sanguinius once he's "backed into a corner with nothing left to lose" are Horus and Angron. Angron himself locks blades with Russ and Roboute in the same novel (in seperate incidents), besting them both desicively.

Oh, by the way, this is my first post and couldn't see where the 'spoiler' brackets were. Can anyone help me with that?


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## Gret79

Muhr said:


> Lorgar explicitly states in Betrayer that the only primarchs who had the power to possibly stand up to Sanguinius once he's "backed into a corner with nothing left to lose" are Horus and Angron. Angron himself locks blades with Russ and Roboute in the same novel (in desperate incidents), besting them both desicively.
> 
> Oh, by the way, this is my first post and couldn't see where the 'spoiler' brackets were. Can anyone help me with that?


Just put 

[ Spoiler] at the top of the post and [ /spoiler] at the bottom - just remove the spaces


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## Muhr

Gret79 said:


> Just put
> 
> [ Spoiler] at the top of the post and [ /spoiler] at the bottom - just remove the spaces


Ah, right. Thanks, Gret79. :good:


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