# Lorgar and Secularism



## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

We can all argue until we are blue in the face as to whether it was a good idea for the Emperor to hide the existance of Chaos from Humanity. I think he was mostly right to do it (as I also think it is a good idea in the 40k universe), but not comepletely.

Lorgar needed something to believe in other than the secular truth. He needed it like a crack head needing a fix. If the Emperor could have trusted him with the information of Chaos and basicaly tell him "Son, there is no god - but there is evil, this is what you must fight against", that would have been enough IMO.

I think the Word Bearers could have been the 30k version of Grey Knights. Unfailing loyalty and obedience. The Emperor didn't have to tell Lorgar everything, but just showing him Chaos would have given him the "higher purpose" that Lorgar needed to justify his existance.

As is the Emp. kept the info to himself. It caused the Heresy, and in a gaming way I am glad he did. There would be no 40k w/o the Heresy :biggrin:


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

....Except that Erebus and Kor Phaeron were still around and knew about Chaos to some extent (ref. First Heretic). Also Lorgar's own statement in Aueilian was "All I wanted was the Truth" If the Emperor had whitewashed Chaos as "those evil somethings" Lorgar would have still have sought it out, his whole character so far has been one of a man seeking enlightenment. The Emperor DID say he wasn't a God and also that the warp (where Lorgar searched for his answers) was Evil and not to be messed with. For that Matter Lorgar is friends with Magnus the Red who also tells him not to delve into the warp. If Big Bad E and Magnus are telling you something is evil and shouldn't be trifled with and you still go and do it you are either insane or desperate. Lorgar needed faith and he states several times that it must be faith in a higher power, a god or gods. Of all the Primarchs he was the only one who worked on a theological level and hence was almost predisposed to fall.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

SonofMalice said:


> ....Except that Erebus and Kor Phaeron were still around and knew about Chaos to some extent (ref. First Heretic). Also Lorgar's own statement in Aueilian was "All I wanted was the Truth" If the Emperor had whitewashed Chaos as "those evil somethings" Lorgar would have still have sought it out, his whole character so far has been one of a man seeking enlightenment. The Emperor DID say he wasn't a God and also that the warp (where Lorgar searched for his answers) was Evil and not to be messed with. For that Matter Lorgar is friends with Magnus the Red who also tells him not to delve into the warp. If Big Bad E and Magnus are telling you something is evil and shouldn't be trifled with and you still go and do it you are either insane or desperate. Lorgar needed faith and he states several times that it must be faith in a higher power, a god or gods. Of all the Primarchs he was the only one who worked on a theological level and hence was almost predisposed to fall.


You make some good points, but also from "The First Heretic", it shows that the Lorgar could be completely satisfied with a lie. The Emp. is not a god (or at least as far as what he says), but Lorgar would have spent the rest of the Great Crusade quite content to keep fighting for a lie. Being given at least a 1/2 truth - ESP. if him and his legion were the only ones entrusted with that truth would have given him a sense of purpose.

Where I do agree with you is on Kor Phareon and Erebus. They would have tried steering the whole thing in a bad direction reguardless of what the emp told Lorgar.


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## DelValle (Apr 22, 2011)

Nah, Lorgar needed to worship, not just have a higher purpose. The Imperial Truth already served as that purpose, but ultimately proved insufficient. Erebus would still be there too to manipulate Lorgar's newfound knowledge of the warp.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

Yes, Grand Vizier types are bad like that lol.
The thing I come back to is that the lie Lorgar chose to believe is that the Emperor is a god, even after being told repeatedly that this wasn't the case. It was his drive to find a faith to believe in that made him earn the Emperor's censure in the first place after all. As mentioned he had been told the Emperor wasn't divine repeatedly and chose to ignore that so the first part of your condition is exactly what happened. The part about Chaos though....I don't see that ending very well in any case. I suspect that even if he danced around the whole Emp is not a god thing he would have been seduced by daemons in almost exactly the way they did. The issue here is the Emperor's plan depended on EVERYONE to cease believing and fueling the warp gods thus diminishing them and in time destroying them. Revealing the existence of these powers has, from 30k to 40k, remained a close secret simply due to the potential for corruption. Telling the second largest legion about it even in guarded terms would have all but ensured that news leaked out. What else but immortal beings would the word bearers be fighting? If it were civilizations like the Laer who integrated chaos worship into their very culture then the Word Bearers would have to push every other force out of the way time and again to protect this secret knowledge. Eventually, as I said, word of these forces would get out and as mentioned in other threads certain primarchs were already tending for a fall, what better allies than a force that it took a whole legion to combat? 

Added to this is the fact that the Chaos Gods were, for the first time in eons, working as ONE. No great game, only ensuring the heresy. Magnus was the first choice, Lorgar the First Heretic but potentially any primarch could have started the whole thing and the ruinous powers were going to make that happen. The Emperor's plan was essentially a race to the finish really, either he wins quickly and consolidates thus weakening and then destroying the gods OR they turn his own sons against him and stymie his efforts. Since they had touched every primarch when they transported them it is not impossible at all to imagine even Sanguinus or Guilliman leading the charge to Terra. This balancing act is what totally prevents the Emperor from telling his sons, if he does he extends the race and risks the victory due to the temptation of it.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Lorgar Aurelian wanted to place his faith and legion in service to something divine. Nothing the short of that would have satiated his thirst for religion. It wasn't enligtenment he was seeking. Coming from an atheist, very few religions offer true enlightenment outside of Buddhism. Most expect or demand obeidience predicated on faith. Before we get into that argument let me not get too outside of my point. Lorgar wanted what many southern baptists in the US refer to as "that old time religion." He wanted to praise and worship his father as something divine therefore confirming his own divinity.

I believe Aurelian's true passion to bring the Emperor up as a God is so that he too would be the "son of God" and would be looked and worshipped as well. He wouldn't believe his father's words that he wasn't even coming out of the Emp's mouth. So he sought other forces. He finds the Chaos gods who eventually raise him to daemon hood.He saw this as a vindication that he was now a god. I believe that Lorgar's true ambition was never to see the Emperor as a god completely. It was that but it was more importantly for he himself to be raised and viewed in such a light. That is why I think the Emperor went so hard on him, because he saw it too.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Deadeye776 said:


> Lorgar Aurelian wanted to place his faith and legion in service to something divine. Nothing the short of that would have satiated his thirst for religion. It wasn't enligtenment he was seeking. Coming from an atheist, very few religions offer true enlightenment outside of Buddhism. Most expect or demand obeidience predicated on faith. Before we get into that argument let me not get too outside of my point. Lorgar wanted what many southern baptists in the US refer to as "that old time religion." He wanted to praise and worship his father as something divine therefore confirming his own divinity.
> 
> I believe Aurelian's true passion to bring the Emperor up as a God is so that he too would be the "son of God" and would be looked and worshipped as well. He wouldn't believe his father's words that he wasn't even coming out of the Emp's mouth. So he sought other forces. He finds the Chaos gods who eventually raise him to daemon hood.He saw this as a vindication that he was now a god. I believe that Lorgar's true ambition was never to see the Emperor as a god completely. It was that but it was more importantly for he himself to be raised and viewed in such a light. That is why I think the Emperor went so hard on him, because he saw it too.


I think you forget that Lorgar was ready to kill Kor Phareaon for leaving those worlds that were "some what" compliant (even after the emps reprimand). You can make the argument (and it would be a good one). Faith in and of itself leads to fanatiscm. I don't agree with that, but it is a good argument. Plenty of examples in history back you up.

I do find it interesting you made an exception for booodah. (did I offend your god, or do you not like me making fun of something you believe in... hmmm).


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## mbatemplar (May 28, 2010)

Question: what impact did his leaking cryotube have on Lorgar? It is my understanding that it was this experience that poisoned his mind. 

The tragedy with lorgar is that the minute the chaos gods had control of his cryo tube he was set up to fail. They tortured him for an eternity (as the warp is timeless), had him land on a planet that was practically already worshipping chaos, probably ensured that his foster father survived to influence him, and waited till he was ripe for the picking. 

This isn't to say that Lorgar was beyond redemption - there are several ways he could've still been saved - but telling him about the true nature of the warp wasn't the answer. It might have actually made it worse as the chaos gods had a long time to play with his mind.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

I wouldn't say it was so overt as that, while Chaos had the power to do a lot of things I haven't ever heard of an infant primarch being tortured before he even landed on his new planet. Yes it touched them all but these were mostly subtle things (ok, wings not so much but still). Also from reading the ADB books he seems to be a total idealist, not a man with his mind poisoned and that his desire to worship the Emperor was based on genuine belief and the many displays of his power (by your will ships traverse the void etc). Idealism is as potent a breeding ground for evil as can be found if it is ever shattered. His was, heartbreakingly for him, at Monarchia. The best thing the Emperor could have done with regard to Lorgar (and NO ONE ELSE) is acknowledge that he was a god. Granted that makes everything else implode but Lorgar would be quite willing to fight a holy war I suspect.

As to the whole Son of God thingy, well, he kinda was. I don't think that was ever his motivation though, he doesn't come off as doing all this to make himself grander but more like a man seeking to glorify a truth that has been revealed to him. He has an almost childlike innocence about him that accounts for his trusting erebus and Kor Phaeron and he seems to genuinely want to convert the universe simply because it is the obvious truth (to him). I rather like the bloke honestly, I find his chain of reasoning and his desire to answer questions grandeur than "Who do we kill next?" appealing. But you cannot divorce him from faith in something divine, that is at the core of his character. He was always going to fall the minute the Emperor didn't claim divinity, it was just a matter of time.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

SonofMalice said:


> The best thing the Emperor could have done with regard to Lorgar ... is


Kill him.

Shame, really.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Lorgar is just a testament to the truth behind humanity in general, humans cannot exist without having some sort of faith to believe in. The Emp.'s biggest mistake was to not claim divinity and instead ban and destroy all things religion. If you look at say Alexander the Great, many of the nations he had conquered ran smoothly, because of him not changing their thinking completely, but allowing them to continue with their current practices and culture, he only seeked power and control. The Emp. on the other hand felt that to combat Chaos, was to simply ignore its existance. This is the worng way of going about it, Lorgar needed something to believe in and by being denied his beliefs he seeked out the true devine beings to prove that the Emp. was wrong. It must be understood that Erebus and Kor Pharon both were manipulative fools that had already had the seed of corruption within them to begin with. Their efforts further pushed Lorgar foward in his quests for truth. We can argue all day that there is a way to halt the HH before it began, but the truth is that since the Emp. refused to allow the truth of Chaos' existance to be known is what ultimately led to road to Chaos for many of his sons. Afterall Chaos comes in multiple forms and in some way would have perverted humanity into their worship one way or another.


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

Someone please fill in the blanks and correct what I'm about to say....Isn't the best way to deal with chaos to ignore it? stop using psychic powers and being so god-damn emotional?

As for Mr.Lorgar, whilst he was looking for something to believe in, some higher-purpose, wouldn't the Emp been better off sitting down (probably over a game of regicide), and discussing Chaos, telling him Gods do exist, how they came into existence and a bit of what Chaos plans for humanity (Death, Mutilation ect..). Surely, understanding some of this Lorgar would realise there is no greater purpose than fighting for his dad? he has an entire legion that revere him as a god (not literally but all Primarchs stir those feelings from their marines). If he still theoretically wanted more after that..then well his fall was inevitable. How the Emp handled him and the legion was a bit rough, but saying that, a man of a Primarch's intellect should have been able to understand that what his dad did was for the better, especially considering how Lorgar viewed him.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

TheSpore said:


> Lorgar is just a testament to the truth behind humanity in general, humans cannot exist without having some sort of faith to believe in.


While I'd defend your right to believe this, stating it as fact instead of opinion is offensive.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

tabbytomo said:


> Someone please fill in the blanks and correct what I'm about to say....Isn't the best way to deal with chaos to ignore it? stop using psychic powers and being so god-damn emotional?


Long term? Absolutely. It would eventually weaken and maybe destroy the gods. This was why the Emperor decided to go that route. The problem is that Chaos and the Warp are VERY necessary in the Imperium and until the webway project came online humanity would always be running the risk of corruption. After his "death" Psykers became even more important as they are some of the few best able to deal with chaos and counter it. Simply put it was a long term idea that could possibly have worked but only if the Imperium was consolidated and ready to stamp out any corruption rapidly.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> While I'd defend your right to believe this, stating it as fact instead of opinion is offensive.


Look I don't want to start in any debates, ok! 

I will at least add this that it is not opinon either though, everyone believes in something rather it is science and logic,devine being, or a higher power. Everyone has a belief and an idea of how the universe was created and how it will end, right down to how we carry out our daily lives. Even if it was proven tomorrow that there is no such thing as a higher power or devine being, man will still feel the need to have a belief. This was Lorgar's downfall, he simply could not live with the idea of there being nothing out there, otherwise he felt the purpose of living itself was meaningless and that there was no reason to exist. This in a way how man is in general, we all feel that we must have purpose or a reason why we exist, because many do not want to accept such a notion.

Please take no offense, but I will not detract my statement.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

TheSpore said:


> Look I don't want to start in any debates, ok!
> 
> I will at least add this that it is not opinon either though, everyone believes in something rather it is science and logic,devine being, or a higher power. Everyone has a belief and an idea of how the universe was created and how it will end, right down to how we carry out our daily lives. Even if it was proven tomorrow that there is no such thing as a higher power or devine being, man will still feel the need to have a belief. This was Lorgar's downfall, he simply could not live with the idea of there being nothing out there, otherwise he felt the purpose of living itself was meaningless and that there was no reason to exist. This in a way how man is in general, we all feel that we must have purpose or a reason why we exist, because many do not want to accept such a notion.
> 
> Please take no offense, but I will not detract my statement.


I'm not interested in debating it - but atheism is not a Belief. Believing Empirically Provable Science is not Believing in it, it's nothing like Faith, which is belief without, or despite, evidence. Opposites, even.


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

Dawkins scale. Atheist Christians exist. Depends on the specific thoughts being discussed. 

Some atheists have a religious disposition, being convinced of the tenets of their thoughts. Some atheists it's only 'an absence of belief'.

In other news, TheKingElessar, I'm sure almost everyone find your use of randomly capitalised words offensive. :grin:


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Those aren't Atheists. And it's not random.


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## mbatemplar (May 28, 2010)

SonofMalice said:


> I wouldn't say it was so overt as that, while Chaos had the power to do a lot of things I haven't ever heard of an infant primarch being tortured before he even landed on his new planet.


Took a bit of time, but I remember where I found the page in the book which details how he was tortured.

First Heretic - page 312 - Argel Tal sees a vision of his primarch in a pod

"The pod rattled, spinning through the void, tumbling alone through the warp's tides. Burn marks and cracks appeared as the lurching journey continued, while mist the colour of madness seeped in through the armour cracks. The child within slept on as pain marred his features..."

It goes on to say that this went on for decades, and lorgar "felt their blessed touch more than any of his brothers" [their refers to the Chaos gods].


We have no idea what impact that type of long term torture had on the primarch's composition and mental stability. In fact, we dont even know how Lorgar was supposed to turn out as a finished product as we never got a chance to see it.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

+Rep for finding that, I knew it sounded right when I read it, but had no clue where I'd seen it...


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

mbatemplar said:


> Took a bit of time, but I remember where I found the page in the book which details how he was tortured.
> 
> First Heretic - page 312 - Argel Tal sees a vision of his primarch in a pod
> 
> ...


Well spotted indeed!


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Argel Tal's vision might well be true. Then again, it might not be. It was, after all, intended to persuade, not enlighten.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

tabbytomo said:


> Someone please fill in the blanks and correct what I'm about to say....Isn't the best way to deal with chaos to ignore it? stop using psychic powers and being so god-damn emotional?


Because telling people to stop being emotional always works. :biggrin:

Beyond that though, this isn't the right way to deal with it. Ignorance is the breeding ground of Chaos corruption. It is the Primarch's blindness to what it is they're dealing with that opens them up to Chaos. The Gods are not just 'xenos from an alternate dimension', they are something far more insidious and powerful than that. The Emperor should've told everyone (or at the very least his sons) what they were dealing with, that there were beings that could creep into their minds, corrupt their purpose and desired nothing but humanities destruction. If the Emperor explains to Horus and Lorgar the nature of the Gods than neither is so open to their lies/promises.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> If the Emperor explains to Horus and Lorgar the nature of the Gods than neither is so open to their lies/promises.


Or, in their hubris, they believe so, actually CAUSING their fall...

*coughFulgrim/Magnus/Lorgar/Horuscough*


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> I'm not interested in debating it - but atheism is not a Belief. Believing Empirically Provable Science is not Believing in it, it's nothing like Faith, which is belief without, or despite, evidence. Opposites, even.


My only issue with your post is that you said you were "offended". I get sick and tired of thin skinned people getting offended by silly shit.

This is a fictional game. And in this game there are GODS (albeit chaos gods).

Ya, the guy you were "offended" by made a generalization. The thing about generalizations is that they are... general. And when you are on a forum of chainswords and bolters, with a corpse on a golden throne running most of the galaxy you should take shit with a grain of salt.

Sorry if I ranted, but I have a pet peeve about people being 'offended'.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I didn't say *I* was offended, I said it was an offensive mentality.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

This thread is teetering on the verge of becoming a religious discussion. 

We do not want that in this section. :nono:


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