# hypothetical conflict between the Adeptus Custodse and Officio Assassinorum



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

So we see that the Adeptus Custodes are very well-versed in unconventional warfare in Abnett's short story _Blood Games_
As the Emperor's bodyguards, they are trained to be counter-assassins (among other roles) 

*Scenario*: Let's say whatever reason, the High Lords of Terra (or another tyrant like Goge Vandire) charge the Officio Assassinorum with wiping out the Adeptus Custodes. Can the Officio pull it off? As the targets of assassination themselves, can the Adeptus Custodes survive...or perhaps even break the Officio?


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

Simply put this would be a blood bath.


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> So we see that the Adeptus Custodes are very well-versed in unconventional warfare in Abnett's short story _Blood Games_
> As the Emperor's bodyguards, they are trained to be counter-assassins (among other roles)
> 
> *Scenario*: Let's say whatever reason, the High Lords of Terra (or another tyrant like Goge Vandire) charge the Officio Assassinorum with wiping out the Adeptus Custodes. Can the Officio pull it off? As the targets of assassination themselves, can the Adeptus Custodes survive...or perhaps even break the Officio?


The Custodes might be able to survive individual attacks and best their assassins, or escape beyond the Officio's reach. But fighting them Officio is a ridiculous concept, and beating them is beyond ludicrous.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

say someone like Goge Vandire wants to exterminate the Custodes and the Officio is willing to comply


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## Harriticus (Nov 10, 2010)

Imperial Assassins are extremely deadly. 

To quote Lexicanum:

"In 546.M32, the High Lords of Terra were slain to the man by the Grand Master of the Officio, Drakan Vangorich. A Space Marine strike force drawing from the Halo Brethren, Sable Swords, and Imperial Fists Chapters was scrambled to stop Vangorich. Storming the Assassinorum Temple on Terra, the force was assailed by a hundred Eversor Assassins. A sole Space Marine survived to reach Vangorich and slay the mad Grand Master. Afterwards, the Imperium descended into a period of anarchy."

100 Eversors wiped out elements from 3 Chapters. If the full force of the Officio was assembled, I think they could ware down the Custodes over time in hit-and-run guerrilla attritional warfare. If it came to a straight-out fight, it'd still be a bloodbath but the Custodes would come out on top.


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## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

What if the entire assassin office decided the emperor must die in order to be reborn, the Custodes are tipped off a few weeks before it begins. Can they keep the emperor alive?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Jerushee said:


> What if the entire assassin office decided the emperor must die in order to be reborn, the Custodes are tipped off a few weeks before it begins. Can they keep the emperor alive?


Easily. That's why the organization exists. The Officio is good and contains the most deadly agents available to humanity, however they are not the most deadly individuals in the galaxy.



Harriticus said:


> 100 Eversors wiped out elements from 3 Chapters. If the full force of the Officio was assembled, I think they could ware down the Custodes over time in hit-and-run guerrilla attritional warfare. If it came to a straight-out fight, it'd still be a bloodbath but the Custodes would come out on top.


Elements from 3 Chapters could be as few as 6 marines, though I'd put it at around 200. This means that in a straight up fight 1 Eversor = ~2 Marines. Now Custodes are generally credited to be better individual fighters than Marines so that ratio would drop drastically (possibly even favouring the Custodes). Further it is likely that the Officio can not call on all that many assassins to be on Terra at the same time, 100 Eversors is likely to be a *significant* portion of their strength.



MontytheMighty said:


> *Scenario*: Let's say whatever reason, the High Lords of Terra (or another tyrant like Goge Vandire) charge the Officio Assassinorum with wiping out the Adeptus Custodes. Can the Officio pull it off? As the targets of assassination themselves, can the Adeptus Custodes survive...or perhaps even break the Officio?


I highly doubt the Officio could succeed. Assassins are used to kill one individual (a command group at most) not an organization of thousands. The Custodes are increadibly skilled warriors and very knowledgable in the field of counter-assassinations (its their whole thing). I have little doubt that the Custodes would survive such an attack and where the Officio to be so bold I think it quite possible that a Custode could succeed in dispatching the Grand Master (though whether that would break the Officio is another question).


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

yes, the reason I believe that the Astartes are a lot more vulnerable to Officio attacks is that the Astartes are mainly conventional forces (with the exception of a few chapters)

the Custodes are masters of counter-intelligence and counter-assassination 
they really would give the Officio a run for its money


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## Bionic-Weasel (Jul 10, 2010)

Jerushee said:


> What if the entire assassin office decided the emperor must die in order to be reborn, the Custodes are tipped off a few weeks before it begins. Can they keep the emperor alive?


Yes, but bare in mind that in the period of a few weeks the Custodes could get several chapters of Space Marines and who knows how many Imperial Guard regiments heading towards Terra. If the Custodes themselves were threatened the rest of the Imperium is going to take this as a direct threat to the Emperor's physical form and make a b-line straight to Terra.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

As much as I think that the Custodes are far superior than the assassins it only takes 1 to get through and I think it would happen eventually. Or immediately if they attacked in full force.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Since we are talking about the palace of terror it would feasibly be the Culexas,Eversor,and Callidus. I don't see Vindicare really making a contribution for what will be a close quarter battle even though they are my favorite. In the end it's going to be an assassin like a black pariah that will kill the Emperor. The assassin are way more dangerous now then they were back in the Vandire days. Taking down hard targets whether xenos or chaos and even traitor has bettered their training. The Custodes have done what? Training excercises? In the military for 8 years and I can tell you real world application of skill sets trumps training excercises. 

This might be different if some of the Heresy era custodes are alive like Valdor but who knows? I've always said that they need to flesh out more stories with the Officio Assassinorum and the Custodes. Of all the forces in the Imperium, they are probably the two forces that are essential to the survival of the human race. Chaos insurrections that have been ended on a snipers round or void blade when military forces could not be expended. Also if and when the throne fails, the Custodes in the throne room alone will be the first and maybe only defence Terra has against what's on the other side of that webway portal.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

About that bit of the Eversors taking on three chapters of Space Marines. 

There were probably like ten in total.

Astartes > anything else the Imperium has to offer. The end.

If that wasn't the case, why not create a million Eversors which without a doubt would be a much simpler and less expensive process than creating Astartes and have them take over worlds. Yes while they may be too psychotic to take orders, in most cases, hostile planets just need their populations taken out.

Oh and in regards to the thread title, I am of the opinion that not a single Custodes would fall. The Custodes themselves are master assassins and have no equals when it comes to solo combat. In _the First Heretic_, one Custodes took down like 6-8 daemon-infused Space Marines. People here need to start giving credit where it's due.


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## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

What about...1000 black pariah assassins?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The black pariah is such a stupid idea and thankfully no one is using it anymore.

herp a durp I take yar powers and reflekt it at yew hehe


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## Smokes (Nov 27, 2009)

From here I can either say something about the Alpha Legion being behind this and all of that. Or bring in the tactical genius of Creed. But I won't. Spez Muhreenz fan boys will scream for the supposed obvious victory of their favorite Spez Muhreenz. They aren't invincible. Either way it would be a extremely bloody and violent conflict which would make for possibly some of the most epic reading ever. ADB?


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## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> In _the First Heretic_, one Custodes took down like 6-8 daemon-infused Space Marines. People here need to start giving credit where it's due.


No they didn't. Though still outnumbered, there were _three_ remaining Custodes in that fight and the ratio of kills described is a lot less:

Nirallus (Custodian) kills Malnor (Gal Vorbak)
Torgal and Sicar (GV) then kill Nirallus,
Aquillon (Custodian) then kills Sicar,
Argel Tal (GV) then kills Aquillon.
Standing as the last Custodian, Sythran then kills Xaphan (GV) before the remaining five WBs likely killed him.

11 of of the Gal Vorbak make the dropsite, but the details are vague as to whether they were all part of the fight or whether it was just eight of them as described above.

So at most they go 2 kills to 1, at minimum it's 1 to 1.


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## Nashnir (Apr 3, 2010)

oiad said:


> No they didn't. Though still outnumbered, there were _three_ remaining Custodes in that fight and the ratio of kills described is a lot less:
> 
> Nirallus (Custodian) kills Malnor (Gal Vorbak)
> Torgal and Sicar (GV) then kill Nirallus,
> ...


This and a few more things regarding the Custodes in the HH series are the only things that I hate with a vengeneance. I know the series is meant to highlight the Astartes but the way they portray the custodes is the same way they use an Avatar to show how awesome the heroes are. 
First they go on and build up the story of how Awesome the Custodes are and then get them killed like recruits who where just thrown into the field with no training.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

As always comparing the work of different writers is a fruitless effort when trying to compare the effectiveness of the various militaries and wargear in 40k. Case in point some authors have las guns ripping peoples arms off (Complete idiocy when compared with table top, and the majority of fictional works over the years.). So in other words quoting a single book or two is a fruitless effort when trying to prove anything in 40k.

As such I suggest that a far more useful method is to use logic and reason to compare the two. 

For instance costodes are the most advanced space marines ever made, and are able to best regular marines with only mild difficulty, and are specifically trained and built to stop assassination attempts. While assassin very in effectiveness drastically depending on the situation and what they are facing (FWI assassins are only able to kill people so easily because they plan and observe the target for weeks ahead of time and make sure the situation is ideal when they attack). So using common sense the costodes would have the edge in this fight as they have probably secretly killed 1000 of would be assassins that have seeked to cripple terra through murder. How much of a edge they would have is up for debate, but claiming that soldier deigned to kill/stop assassin would have a disadvantage fighting assassin borders on the moronic. Its like saying tank hunter would have a hard time fighting tanks.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Harriticus said:


> Imperial Assassins are extremely deadly.
> 
> To quote Lexicanum:
> 
> ...


The number of Astartes isn't given. More importantly, what does it say for the prowess of the Assassins if the one Space Marine who DID survive was able to beat Vangorich in single combat?

It could have been one or two hundred Astartes, for all we know. See "Nemesis" for an example of an Eversor fighting an Astartes...



The Garantine only effectively engages a single Astartes after the Callidus stuns him with a neural weapon.




Nashnir said:


> This and a few more things regarding the Custodes in the HH series are the only things that I hate with a vengeneance. I know the series is meant to highlight the Astartes but the way they portray the custodes is the same way they use an Avatar to show how awesome the heroes are.
> First they go on and build up the story of how Awesome the Custodes are and then get them killed like recruits who where just thrown into the field with no training.


I really didn't see it that way at all. "Blood Games" states outright that, minor differences in size, one would be hard-pressed to determine who would win in a battle between Astartes and Custodes. "The First Heretic" features Aquillon defeating a senior officer a number of times, but you have to remember that Aquillon himself is easily just as old, if not older, and thus is potentially more experienced.

Cheers,
P.


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## Nashnir (Apr 3, 2010)

I will have to apologise for derailing the core discussion with my opinions but I am doing this as a suppliment to the discussion to establish a good foothold on the Skills of the Custode.




Phoebus said:


> I really didn't see it that way at all. "Blood Games" states outright that, minor differences in size, one would be hard-pressed to determine who would win in a battle between Astartes and Custodes. "The First Heretic" features Aquillon defeating a senior officer a number of times, but you have to remember that Aquillon himself is easily just as old, if not older, and thus is potentially more experienced.
> 
> Cheers,
> P.



I never under estimated the marital prowess of a Custode. What I hate the way they were under powered in HH series. I mean even if we all agree that the Blood games quote is to be taken as hard fact; It would seem irresponsible of the Custode to take many of the actions we see they take in the series considering they are supposed to the elite and especially because of the fact that they are the Emp's guards.
Like
Note: Spoilers from The First Heretic, A Thousand Sons.



Vendatha asking Lorgar to surrender before trying to contact the rest especially while holding 5 astartes and a primarch at gunpoint.

The squad of Custode on Jetbikes charging at the thousand sons knowing full well their use of soccery.


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## Brother Emund (Apr 17, 2009)

Hang on, wasn't the original scenario... Custodes verses the Officio Assassinorum? The Emperor wasn't in the equation. If it is an attack on the Emperor, then it will not succeed. I am not sure the exact number of Custodes, but it probably numbers thousands. Add to that, all the other troops that would be present including Space marines. Not to mention all the fixed defence systems etc, then they would not get through TO THE EMPEROR.

If its just against the Custodes, not sure, but I would not fancy the Assassinorium's.. chances much, trying to take the Custodes positions!


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

There are two thousand Custodes (Visions of Heresy).

*Nashnir,*

I misunderstood you. Regarding the examples you cite... I would just remind that an author of fiction will probably always err on the side of dramatic conflict/tension. Thus, such confrontations will occassionally happen. I mean, we may as well eliminate most dialogue from action movies while we're at it if we go that route, you know? :wink:

And, honestly, 40k fiction does not typically attempt to give you a realistic view of warfare. We're talking about a milieu where chainsaw-swords are strapped right next to hand-held rocket propelled grenade launchers that fire like a machinegun. 

Cheers,
P.


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## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

Phoebus said:


> "The First Heretic" features Aquillon defeating a senior officer a number of times, but you have to remember that Aquillon himself is easily just as old, if not older, and thus is potentially more experienced.


Though it's never outright stated in the novel, that's actually quite an accurate observation Phoebus. ADB has already stated on this board that Vendatha (and likely the entire Custodian cadre from that novel) were very exceptional by the standards of the Custodes. Imo, they were at least Companions in terms of ranking. Here's the link to that thread.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Thanks, oiad!


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> In _the First Heretic_, one Custodes took down like 6-8 daemon-infused Space Marines. People here need to start giving credit where it's due.


That is very inaccurate. One Companion (cream-of-the-crop Custodes) kills three Word Bearers and is shot in the face by the fourth. Later on when the remaining band of Custodes takes on the possessed Word Bearers, the kill ratio is roughly 1-1.



Phoebus said:


> what does it say for the prowess of the Assassins if the one Space Marine who DID survive was able to beat Vangorich in single combat?


Good point though Vangorich could be more of a brainy mastermind and less of a fighter


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

Is there really 2000 Custodes? I thought it was much smaller than that.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I'm not taking anything away from the Astartes but let's remember the fight between M'shen and Talos. Yeah, the primarch kill was a gimme so I'm not giving her any cred on that or the escape. The actual fight between the two of them was pretty close until he got the upper hand which seemed a bit from circumstance than skill. He himself remarked on how dangerous these assassins were and she had almost no concern that she couldn't kill him. That was 10,000 years ago with the Officio being in it's birthing stages. The assassins seemed more human than formulated weapons. Now? You deploy an Assassin when military forces aren't available or you want a surgical strike. Not a squad,platoon,or company. Just one. A company is 140 to 200 men and that's max.So 300 eversors handling them isn't a big surprise. 

One Eversor could kill at least one Astartes. You do the math and that makes sense if you've read Nemesis. An assassin is not a soldier. He's a hunter. Huge difference. Deploying assassins like troops will get them killed when they're used to working alone.At max a kill team and even then it's a laborious task. If you look at all of the Assassinorum's specialties all of them are really for a lone wolf. So this whole question of the Assassinorum defeating the Custodes is like asking if the CIA could defeat the military. One is suited to fight wars like a broadsword or hammer. The other kills from stealth and shadow. A better question would be to pick a temple and for whatever reason if the could kill a Custode,emphasis on Custode for A assassin.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

The Assassin Clades were already established before the Unification War. "Nemesis" makes that clear enough (I think).

Where M'Shen, the Garantine, or any other Assassin, is concerned, you have to keep in mind the same thing as you do for Astartes. It's not like every Assassin has the same degree of experience, skill, etc. Torgaddon was killed by Horus Aximand, and soundly so (arms broken, on his knees)... and they were both Captains. Loken beat Lucius once, by cunning, and then lost, later, by skill. They were both Captains.

M'Shen was sent to kill a Primarch... in the end, though, Curze was willing to let her kill him. The Garantine was sent as part of a strike force to kill the second most dangerous and protected individual _in the Galaxy._ The idea that every Eversor is the Garantine's match flies in the face of reason. The idea that every Callidus is as deadly as M'Shen is likewise a stretch. Talos couldn't beat M'Shen? Fair enough--he wasn't even a _Sergeant,_ and she was _handpicked to kill a demigod._ The Garantine took out an Astartes? Fair enough, but all he was doing was dodging back and forth in front of him until Koyne blasted the Son of Horus with a neural weapon and stunned him, allowing the Eversor to tear him apart on the ground.

Anyways, just my two cents' worth! 

Cheers,
P.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Okay again, I'm a huge Kurze fan and I'm not giving that slag the credit for something the Haunter saw happened centuries before and was at peace with letting it happen.As for skill levels I will say this. I completely agree with you. You can't make a blanket statement about every assassin or astartes.HOWEVER, you do have something called a standard in combat units. While experiance and training will make a difference there is a regulation that they all have to be able to surpass at the MINIMUM. So while M'shen and the Garantine might have been the best of the best that was 10,000 years ago when you didn't have the multitudes of threats realized that they have today. 

From the tyranids to the dawn of "hey the warp is a place of sentient evil" I think everyone has gotten a little smarter and deadlier. Why do I think this? If they haven't gotten any better in 10,000 years then yeah, I think they would have been wiped out by now with the multiple threats that have surfaced since. That goes for every side.All I'm saying is 300 Eversors vs 160 Astartes is a 2-1 fight that I can see one guy making it. There berserker killers. I'll tell you something. If it was 40 Vindicare set up to cover the approach to the Grand Masters fortress that number would have been zip. I don't care what the status is.....you read any military novel about snipers and it's usually a wrap.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> It's not like every Assassin has the same degree of experience, skill, etc. Torgaddon was killed by Horus Aximand, and soundly so (arms broken, on his knees)... and they were both Captains.


I think you make a good point...there's a lot of variation in skill even within the same rank. Some SM captains are much more skilled at single combat than other SM captains. 
However, I was a bit surprised at how easily Aximand dispatched Torgaddon. I didn't expect it to be as lop-sided as it was.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Deadeye776,

The same time has passed for the Astartes, who have also had to deal with those threats. They, too, have a "minimum". We can't pretend Assassins magically got better but the guys they were supposed to fight didn't.

As for the example given (the surviving member of a contingent of Astartes taking out the Master of Assassins), this occurred less than a millennium after the Horus Heresy.

Of course, this is all hypothetical and based just on the fiction novels (and other written fluff). If you want to get technical, in game stats Assassins trump any Astartes that doesn't happen to be a Captain, Librarian, or something similar. 

Cheers,
P.


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## Brother Emund (Apr 17, 2009)

kwak76 said:


> Is there really 2000 Custodes? I thought it was much smaller than that.


Seems low to me as well. 2000 Custodes to guard the Imperial Palace which covers the Himalaya's? 
Also, don't the Custodes have teams or operatives that are out and about on Terra carrying out 'operations' hunting down enemies?


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## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

kwak76 said:


> Is there really 2000 Custodes? I thought it was much smaller than that.


There were at least 2,000 Custodes before the Siege of Terra. Around 1,000 of these were deployed at Prospero. Post-Heresy the numbers fluctuate depending on the source. I've read in some places the there are around 10,000 Custodians guarding the Eternity Gate alone. Other times I remember reading that there were roughly 1,000 spread throughout the whole palace.

I bet you could ask a question regarding their numbers to each member of GWs creative team and you'd get a different answer every time.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Brother Emund said:


> Seems low to me as well. 2000 Custodes to guard the Imperial Palace which covers the Himalaya's?


I recall that the elite Companions alone number 300. A total figure of 1000-2000 is rather low. However, this is 40k and 40k is known for ridiculous numbers...e.g. one million space marines for the current Imperium.

10,000 sounds more plausible. I think twenty thousand would be even better.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Like I said earlier, the 2,000 figure was for the Crusade era, per "Visions of Heresy".


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I meant all sides are getting better at what they do as time progresses Phoebus. The Astartes from the beginning were always the best warriors the Imperium had but I believe they've gotten better through wars with different factions and civil wars. It wasn't really stated how good each temple was at what they did only that they were extremely dangerous. Up until that point they had never (except Kell) hunted an Astartes for what I know. As for the game stats, if you remember it was Kell who took the kill shot in the Novel Nemesis on (SPOILER ALERT) 






Luc Sedirae. Depending on the Assassin and the Astartes is what is going to determine the battle and getting back to the Custodes I think this should be a one on one battle.You don't deploy assassins as ground troops. If you want to say like "Could a Callidus kill one of the Emperor's Custodes" that is a better question. I think in an all out war the Custodes are more of an army than the Officio and can move like infantry.If the Assassinorum decided to take out the heads of the Custodes I think that would be interesting as well but force on force is a stupid question since the custodes are warriors and the assassins are hunter/killers, huge difference in an all out fight.


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## tsne16487 (Aug 5, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> I highly doubt the Officio could succeed. Assassins are used to kill one individual (a command group at most) not an organization of thousands. The Custodes are increadibly skilled warriors and very knowledgable in the field of counter-assassinations (its their whole thing). I have little doubt that the Custodes would survive such an attack and where the Officio to be so bold I think it quite possible that a Custode could succeed in dispatching the Grand Master (though whether that would break the Officio is another question).


This. Assassins are not soldiers, no matter how good they are with weapons of silent, distant, invisible death, they cannot fight battle, they are not battle hardened, and are not trained for this type of contact. They are trained to strike from the shadows and move alone. To put assassins into massed battalions to fight against combat troops would be a waste of time. No matter how good they are they would lose. The combat troops are trained for combat situations and can handle it, Assassins cannot.

If the assassins were sent after each custodes individually then they may have a chance, but in an all out war with the custodes, no chance.

Assassins are killers, masters of the craft. But Custodes are combat soldiers trained to protect the Emperor from killers and other troops. In a war always back the soldiers, not the killers.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I agree with everything you said. I think it would be a better could insert whatever assassin temple kill like Constantin Valdor or some other famous Custode. To fight en masse is suicide for the assassins. What would they do? Get into a phanlanx or ranks and march on the Custodes? After the Custodes stopped laughing they would gun them down. Why do I think this would happen? Look at the equipment the Assassins carry, what's missing? Armor except maybe the Eversor. An assassin can be utilized in war,but not how this is asking.


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## tsne16487 (Aug 5, 2011)

Yes its worth noting throughout history, that assassins have ended wars - Truly, and sometimes even started wars - Truly. But assassins have never fought wars, and never could fight a war.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> I think it would be a better could insert whatever assassin temple kill like Constantin Valdor or some other famous Custode.


No. A hero of the Custodes however would be a) almost certainly beyond their ability to reach (ie. he won't be isolated or alone) and b) highly, highly skilled in detecting, engaging and defeating assassins. 

I do believe a highly skilled assassin could almost certainly kill a random lone Custode. However this is far from guaranteed. After all, the Custodes regularly train for exactly this type of action so catching one by surprise and killing them before they recover is going to be brutally difficult.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Okay, it's a lot different training to protect and give your life for SOMEONE ELSE, then if you are training to avoid assassination yourself. Valdor is a great hero, but i'm sure the assassins have killed eldar exarchs, ork warbosses,and chaos leaders who have also been as surrounded and guarded not mentioning traitors. Anyone who lives can be killed. Let's remember something too, in Nemesis, if a certain someone hadn't been using a body double his head would have been blown off. You can't argue that. It seems decapitation is the weakness of the primarchs (manus and kurze will tell you).Also the black pariah ( I thought it was a little far fetched but a little cool) could have feasibly taken out the Emperor. These assassins can take out anyone given the right skill set, opportunity, and mistakes made by the victims. Not always but it's a possibility


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> Okay, it's a lot different training to protect and give your life for SOMEONE ELSE, then if you are training to avoid assassination yourself. Valdor is a great hero, but i'm sure the assassins have killed eldar exarchs, ork warbosses,and chaos leaders who have also been as surrounded and guarded not mentioning traitors. Anyone who lives can be killed. Let's remember something too, in Nemesis, if a certain someone hadn't been using a body double his head would have been blown off. You can't argue that. It seems decapitation is the weakness of the primarchs (manus and kurze will tell you).Also the black pariah ( I thought it was a little far fetched but a little cool) could have feasibly taken out the Emperor. These assassins can take out anyone given the right skill set, opportunity, and mistakes made by the victims. Not always but it's a possibility


The custodes are trained in all forms of assasination techniques including that of the various temples.

The Eldar are not and often their hubris and underestimating mankind is the reason they constantly lose.

The Orks are brutes and thus are easy pickings for an Imperial assassin.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

The only outside entity that I know have an all access pass to the Assassinorum is the Inquisition with the ordo that monitors the Officio. I would really be interested in hearing where you learned the Custodes are trained in the techniques of the Assassinorum. Other than that the Eldar vastly more intelligent than the human species with the prime example being the webway and their vast knowledge of technology.The orks have no fear of death and can breed asexually making their infestation of a planet almost impossible to stop and terminate. To send a lone opperative to handle the leaders of creatures like this speak to the skills of the Officio. I promise you, whatever assassination techiques exist,between the eldar and their dark cousins they've already thought of. 

You think they don't have snipers or callidus like agents? Their god of murder instills all the aspects of killing in them. Orks not so much but they are still inumerable. I'm not taking anything away from the Custodes. They are the best force out there to stop an assassination. However if you want to get literal, their primary mission is a failure as the Emperor is no longer physically with them. That should be proof enough between the Emperor and the primarchs that ANYBODY in 40k can be killed.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> The only outside entity that I know have an all access pass to the Assassinorum is the Inquisition with the ordo that monitors the Officio. I would really be interested in hearing where you learned the Custodes are trained in the techniques of the Assassinorum. Other than that the Eldar vastly more intelligent than the human species with the prime example being the webway and their vast knowledge of technology.The orks have no fear of death and can breed asexually making their infestation of a planet almost impossible to stop and terminate. To send a lone opperative to handle the leaders of creatures like this speak to the skills of the Officio. I promise you, whatever assassination techiques exist,between the eldar and their dark cousins they've already thought of.
> 
> You think they don't have snipers or callidus like agents? Their god of murder instills all the aspects of killing in them. Orks not so much but they are still inumerable. I'm not taking anything away from the Custodes. They are the best force out there to stop an assassination. However if you want to get literal, their primary mission is a failure as the Emperor is no longer physically with them. That should be proof enough between the Emperor and the primarchs that ANYBODY in 40k can be killed.


I have no direct source but if you read blood games you would realize they dont just sit around doing nothing.

They most likely have spies amongst the various temples or given their rank, have acccess to all their records.

The Custodes are assasin stoppers, the end.

How did they fail in protecting the Emperor? He sent them off elsewhere when he chose to fight Horus.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Actually, if I recall correctly, the Emperor and his companions were scattered throughout the Vengeful Spirit. Hence why Sanguinius found himself in a tough spot, or why Dorn found the Emperor near-death.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Okay this isn't lord of the rings or some other soft fantasy genre. In combat nothing ever works out the way your plan. Ask Col. Custer and he'll tell you. So teleporting aboard a shipt and being scattered doesn't mean shit. Neither is being in a combat situation and not being at a 100% like the angel. Shit happens when you party naked and your enemies aren't going to wait for you to take a breather or hydrate. They are all warriors and accepted the risks. 

So you know, the Custodes did more than the damn blood games. When the Emperor still fought in the Crusades they were his personal bodyguard on the feild and used to wreck shop with the Big E so I don't need a lecture in what they are capable of. It's been implied that between a primarch and an astartes you have the custodes. So I'm not saying they aren't capable. It's stupid to say an assassin isn't capable of killing them. If they are alive they can die, who does it really doesn't matter. It's that simple.In 40k everyone in the materium can possibly be killed. Assassins are usually they guys who spend they're every waking moment figuring out how. Custodes are experts at stopping them,but shit happens and someone eventually get's lucky. That's all I'm saying. Just because they are close to demigods doesn't mean a vindicare couldn't blow their head off at a kilometer.It's possible, that's all.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Who the hell said anything about them being immune to dying?

I simply said a Custodes is well versed in all manners of assassination and thus is quite capable of foiling any assassin's plan on target X.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

We're going in circles trying to prove the same point. I know the custode's can foil any assassination plot. I'm saying that it's possible they can be killed by an assassin as easily as they can stop one. That's it. Whatever the custodes are versed in stopping I'm sure the Assassins have worked at trying to foil. Like jiu jitsu there's a counter for ever counter. This has been beaten into the ground and I'm done with it.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I'm going to side with Malus for one reason. The Imperial Palace (where the Custodes would be) has got to be the most difficult place for an assassin to infiltrate. All the advantages would be stacked on the side of the Custodes. Or, in other words, I don't think it would be "just as easy" for an assassin to kill a custodes as it would be for him (or her) to be stopped.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

@Phoebus: 

So if they didn't have the Imperial Palace on their side, you think the Custodes would be inefficient against an Imperial assassin or against stopping their plans?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Anytime topics like that come up, my default answer is:

"What is the specific situation?"

I mean, if it's just a Custodes in the middle of the open, and there's a Vindicare hanging out in the bell tower, it's game over. But if it's an Eversor and a Custodes in a closed off room and the latter if aware of the former, I don't think it's anywhere near that clear cut. And if that same Eversor had to infiltrate a compound defended and prepared by the Custodes, then I think the latter have the clear advantage.

But even those scenarios are just too vague. It's why special forces teams plan their operations so painstakingly: they try to address all the variables. And without knowing the variables, I don't think anyone can really make a sound determination.

Really, in the absence of all that data, all we have to go by are the novels and the game stats. We know a modern assassin would only be challenged by an Astartes Captain, Librarian, or something similar (stats wise). We don't know what a Custodes' stats are. We only have a general statement (that we would be hard pressed to pick the winner in a fight between a Custodes and an Astartes), but even that is kind of dismissed by the fact that we're shown that there's a great deal of variety in skill from one Astartes to another. Personally, I'd lean toward the individual Assassin being superior to the individual, average Custodes. That's mitigated, of course, by the fact that the Custodes operate in groups, whereas the Assassins tend to operate in a solitary capacity (or in small numbers).

Again, though, it's all situation dependent. 

Cheers,
P.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

like that other guy said, there's a counter for every counter...it all depends on how it plays out

that said, I think that if a custodian is an expert at protecting someone else from assassination and very well-versed in assassination himself, he's probably an expert at protecting himself from assassination as well...if he were not, that would be a VERY big hole in his game (what good is a bodyguard if the assassin can easily eliminate him before going after the ultimate target?)


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