# Individual strength/toughness of a space marine?



## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

I am having a really hard time figuring out exactly how many soldiers does one space marine equal? Can they face down a whole fireteam, a whole platoon, a whole battalion? They are depicted one way in the fluff, another way in the video games, and yet another way in the tabletop.

My personal idea is that even among space marines, combat skill varies a lot between individual marines: That would help reconcile the video of a single howling banshee pwning a marine with the fact that 1000 ultramarines dealt a huge blow to a hive fleet of millions.


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## Commissar Ploss (Feb 29, 2008)

Its quite natural that the skill/experience of an individual SM varies. Those who have just ascended from scout rank, will have drastically different skill sets from those SM who have been fighting for 300-500 years. You grow through experience. same as always.

as for how many opponents a SM can take on, it varies greatly here too. There are too many variable. what kind of weaponry does the opponent have? what is their strength? how fast can they move? am i aware of their presence? explosives or guns? fists or blades? 

there is no real concrete answer.

CP


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## Tuck3r (Apr 9, 2010)

yep. i also think it depends on the type of combat. its stated alot in very different books that the value of superior armor strength armor valor training is magnified closer to the ememies... also depends on the enemies... the average marine squad would be hard pressed by a squad of banshies but then again a pair of average marines would be able to defeat or hold off a squad of guardians at close to melee range...


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

All you really know for sure about Space Marines is that they'll fare a hell of a lot better than Guardsmen.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Here's the thing about Space Marines, you don't want to use them as frontline troops. Toss one into an a flat plain against a platoon of infantry and the sheer volume of fire will overwhelm him.

Put him in a building or a battleship with corridors where overwhelming amounts of fire can not be brought to bear (both in volume and potency--you can't be casually firing las cannon shots when you can make a hole and decompress the entire cargo bay, for example) and a single space marine could easily tackle a platoon or company of regular soldiers, 5 or so at a time, of course. 

Space Marines have a lot of combat potency packed into each one. Place them into a situation where only a small amount of men can fight at a time and they'll come out on top. Hence why they're generally used as shock troops.


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## Tuck3r (Apr 9, 2010)

very much like the spartans or roman leigons....


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## General Disarray (Apr 28, 2010)

in the book Tratior General, the ghosts talk about how usually several platoons, even regiments of guard will retreat and wait for support (be it superheavies or marines) when encountering traitor marines, and in First and Only the arrival of one traitor marine holds up the advance of several regiments, 
its safe to assume marines are capable of goin toe-to-toe with at least one infantry squad at a time if not a whole platoon depending on the marine


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Its also the psychological effect that Astartes bring to the battlefield. Men know the Astartes as the Emperor's Angels, wrought by His own hand and the eternal protectors of Mankind. They are mythological giants who bestride the stars. 

If they are truly aware that a Chaos Astartes is present (even just a single one), it would have a profound psychological effect on the Imperials.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Added to which the fighting style of the marine in question will vary, as will his approach.

Blood Angels will want to close as quickly as possible, Raven guard will want to remain unseen, Iron warriors are generally a firepower unit, and ultramarines are an all round unit etc.

Though they are all the same on tabletop and screen, taking this from a fluff perspective is a whole new story.



So to answer your question... I don`t know.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Add to that the fact that a SM is a self sufficient unit, not only is he physically superior but he also mentally and strategically far more aware than any Guardsman. A Space Marine lives for war, it's what they were designed for. A Guardsman on the other hand probably doesn't want to be there, he's a grunt who does as he's told and does his best not to win but to stay alive. 
A Guard can be frightened, a Space Marine can't.
A Space Marine is up to eight feet tall, a mass of hardened bone and enhanced muscle that can move faster and react quicker than a normal human, they hold near mythological status within the Imperium. 
In fluff terms at least I would say that a single Space Marine could do a whole heap of damage to whatever he sets his sights on.


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

Terminators can take on thousands and win. 3 Deathwing terminators and 1 deathwing librarian in terminator armor liberated an entire planet that had been enslaved to xenos.

Marines individually, not really sure.


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## Tuck3r (Apr 9, 2010)

Even on the table top terminators kick alot of ass. k 30 or so genestealers and a particularly nasty IC that i can't remember face off against one squad of 5 nilla terminators. they nids get 5 attacks a peice and the IC gets 6 all of em rending.... total they had 48 attacks 6 of em rending. 3 terminators survived to kill 6 of the stealers...


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Perhaps a good test would be the following 2 questions:

1. In melee, can said marine beat an nob?

2. In ranged, can said marine beat a Tau fire warrior?


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Consider this:

Take one single marine, unarmed and unarmoured, and put him in a fighting pit.

Keeping adding human men to the fighting pit, equally armed and armoured.

IMO Space Marine continues to fight and win, endlessly, untill his body dies from lack of nutrition - and considering SM physiology, it's a long time.

SM's are so much better than human warriors in every way that the tabletop doesn't really do it justice. Then again, an SM army would be unplayable if it id - mainly because the 20 or so tactical marines and hell knows what else you would deploy would wipe out bazillions of whatever your enemy pours out, other than CSM, etc.


Thinking about it logically:

A basic SM is likely to be a far better shot than even the most experience, skillful, and lucky human sniper, with any weapon.

A basic SM (not even a particularly hard one) is going to be orders of magnitude tougher, stronger, faster, and more skillful in unarmed combat than even the most badass human martial artist.

With a close combat weapon, the above applies.

A SM is profficient, if not a master, in the use of every weapon that a humanoid of the imperium will encounter in an armoury. If they are not a total master, and they don't prefer it, you can bet that they still practice with it anyway - they just practice MORE with the weapons that they DO prefer.

Space marine armour and weaponry is (if you are a reader/player of Dark Heresy, this should be especially apparent) relatively better than human equipment in the same way their physiques are. A space marine boltgun, for example, is WAY more badass than a boltgun carried by some random human knobber. The same applies to astartes pwer armour - all SM equipment is about as good as it gets.

I havn't even started on the physiology yet, as it would go on for ages. With regard to that, let's just say that they aren't fucking about. Muscularly, they don't really compare. With no enhancement (from powered armour, and such), they are described as being easily able to punch the head clean off a man's shoulders. It wouldn't surprise me if they could quite easily kick through brick walls and such, without armour. At least, the literature from the "inquisitor" game depicts them that way, and this is certainly the only game other than DH that scales the marine power/ability to what it should be: One SM can basically take out entire parties of other characters without even taking much damage. Including inquisitors, psykers, bodyguards, servitors, blah blah - someone brings a marine to an inquisitor match and the complaints start rolling out, mainly because the player without the marine gonna lose.

Why he gonna lose?

'cus, among other things, the marine knows exactly where all of the other players are from turn 1: He has an auspex. If they are immune to the detection from that, he has supernaturally good hearing, so knows where you are. If you are silent, as soon as you come into visual range (which, for him, is the full length of whatever game board you are using, considering not many people have a 20ft game board to mess with, to make that untrue), he sees you (this fucker does not fail tests). He has no fear. His armour takes nukes with joy. He heals, per turn, more damage than most characters not packing a multi-melta can deal. Without any weapons, his strength bonus deals, on average rolls, more damage than a human wielded power weapon (his fists are death, basically). To a human, his boltgun is a nuke. One shot = DEAD. Forget this 40k S4 ap5 bullshit. Bolter in a game of "true" power scale = WIN. Oh yeah, he does OCCASSIONALLY miss, but he just fired, like, 4 shots from his bolter. So with a hit rate, at lowest, of like 75%, you just got hit. You're dead. If you got into CC with him, well... that's nice for you... he adds his power-weapon-magnitude strength bonus to his... power weapon attack... Yeah, if you weren't dead before, you certainly are now. He didn't even bother dirtying his sword - he just headbutted you and caved in your face, while mumbling something about the Emperor's wrath. You're an assassin, you say? So you were silent, immune to detection, and slipped by unseen... to poison him with some ridiculously useless and expensive weapon... ok... Shame he's immune to that, too. Funnily enough, he also has rules stating that he can then bite you as an attack, and deliver the poison his body was subjected to BACK into you, instead. Nice. Fucked by your own plan. If that weren't cool enough, one of his attacks is being able to spit acid. FUCK your armour, sunshine. He has a knife too, somewhere, I think. If he bothered to take grenades, it's worth pointing out that after a small calculation considering his strength bonus, he can throw a grenade a distance over 100inches, quite easily. Got a big game board, have you? 'cus your character that is not a marine is struggling to ge their 'nade further than 20 inches. Imagine what the guy does with his knife, should he decide to throw it. So, you can't run, because he's way faster. You can't fight him, because you're gonna die. Hide? Well, that's fine... untill he casually walks through the reinforced wall right next to you, robocop style, and pops your head like a zit, between his thumb and index finger. Strength of like 250% + power armour = wall fail.

The only character harder/more ridiculous than the space marine is an officio assassinorum assassin. If the marine can take, say, at least 5 other characters without breaking a sweat, then the "official" assassin can take at least 2 or 3 marines without crying about it. Their rules were off the hook, and, frankly, taking quite a large amount of piss.

I would definitely believe that in the right circumstances, a marine would hold off hundreds of humans.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I must play this game you speak of. If they have rules in it for a space wolf I will go mother fucking ape shit crazy. If not..... Ape shit will do just fine. I laughed for the entire read, btw. Lol epic win.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

The rules for inquisitor are free from the GW website, I think.

Dark Heresy rules are not free, but the game is awesome. However, a person may NOT play as a space marine in DH - they are simply encountered, with huge irregularity.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Platypus5 said:


> Perhaps a good test would be the following 2 questions:
> 
> 1. In melee, can said marine beat an nob?
> 
> 2. In ranged, can said marine beat a Tau fire warrior?


Yes. Just yes. :biggrin:


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## Tuck3r (Apr 9, 2010)

at range it won't hit as often as a tau fire warrior but the marine can wade through the fire from them like it was water firing the whole way if the Fwarrior isn't dead by the time the marine gets into assault range he is fucked now... and btw thas like 18" for a BA with jump pack in a turn then we plant a chainsword in your skull. or better yet Chainfist!!!! everyone has to admit nothing is better than a chainfist. that is a fist the sizie of a friggin soulgrinders head with a big ass powerfield just like other power weapons with brass knuckles that are also a friggin chainsaw! yeah don't bother u dead


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## Turkeyspit (Jun 11, 2010)

It really breaks down to three things imo.

1. Physical Abilities. (compared to Guardsman)

Space Marines are stronger, smarter, and tougher. Because of their enhancements, they are able to survive trauma that would cripple or kill an ordinary human.

2. Equipment.

Powered Armor only magnifies #1. While effective in mass volleys, a Las Gun will never be as effective 1v1 as a Bolter / Bolt Pistol. While Guardsman can be equipped with Bolt weapons, they are standard issue for Space Marines. 

Space Marines also tend to have better Hand to Hand weapons, not to mention being able to kill regular humans using only their bare hands.

3. Experience

Space Marines are, in essence, immortal. Many of the stories we read talk about Astartes that have 100+ years of combat experience behind them.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

I personally believe that the "truest" depiction is what is shown in the tabletop game. After all, that is where 40k originated. DoW and fluff also have a say, but the lack of OPness in DoW and its abundence in the fluff, in my opinion, cancel each other out.


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## Commissar Ploss (Feb 29, 2008)

Platypus5 said:


> So DoW lied to me


you're surprised? lol

CP


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Platypus5 said:


> I personally believe that the "truest" depiction is what is shown in the tabletop game. After all, that is where 40k originated. DoW and fluff also have a say, but the lack of OPness in DoW and its abundence in the fluff, in my opinion, cancel each other out.


I'd go the other way the fluff is the best representation, if space marines on the table top were anywhere near as tough it would seiously unbalance the game.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

normtheunsavoury said:


> I'd go the other way the fluff is the best representation, if space marines on the table top were anywhere near as tough it would seiously unbalance the game.


At this point, the argument transcends fluff and becomes an argument over the nature of 40k itself. But what the hell? Lets continue.

I hold by my belief that the tabletop has the trump card on 2 things: First of all, the tabletop is what came first and is the core of the 40k franchise. The fluff and video games came later. Second and more critically, I used averages. <Lets rate the "overpoweredness" of the series on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being the most overpowered. If we rate DoW marines "2," tabletop marines as "5," & fluff marines as "10."

The mean average adds up is as follows: (2+5+10)/3 = 17/3 = 5.67

average marine OPness is 5.67. Much closer to the tabletop than the fluff. And it should be pointed out that it is common in many series for the fluff to be much more powerful than the game itself.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Games Workshop has stated that the Space Marines on the table top are balanced so as to be able to be used as an army rather than a small unit of men- that's why the Movie Marines rules were made so you could use a more accurate representation of Astartes in a battle if you so wished.

And actually the fluff came out the same time as the game.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Technically though the fluff would have had to have come first, you can't have Astartes models without first developing what an Astartes is!

And quite clearly, a tabletop game has to be fair and balanced - the background material is a better representation of what Astartes are capable of, rather than their stats on the board.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

If you want a realistic representation, then play inquisitor. Simple.

Very boring, tbh, because you turn up with one marine, shout "I WIN.", pack up, and then go home. Every time.


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## Illiadar (Jan 21, 2010)

The fluff came out officially at the same time as the rules, in the Rogue Trader (1st edition) rulebook. But the modern fluff is completely different from what it was originally. In the Rogue Trader rulebook, there was no such thing as "chaos daemons", the imperium ruled the galaxy, there was a striking (in hindsight) complete lack of grimdark, and questionably sapient monkeys were a playable race. Since then, the fluff of space marines has evolved from "Highly trained warriors with some physical enhancement and good equipment" to "Badass supermen who can shoot far better than any human, take bolter rounds and live, crush men with their bare hands, and wear tanks". A huge driving factor in that was to sell models, so much so that the fluff eventually became completely disproportionate with the actual rules.

In contrast with the fluff, the rules for space marines have stayed relatively stable. They have been, in my opinion, the base upon which the other armies are balanced. Because of this, the rules for space marines, as i mentioned before, have lost touch completely with the fluff. For this reason, I think it's safe to conclude that *the fluff and the rules are completely incomparable*. So Platypus5, to answer your question, in the fluff, a crapload of guardsmen. On the table, eh, 4? Depends wildly on the circumstances for both.

I do disagree though that this argument "transcends fluff and becomes an argument over the nature of 40k itself". What is "the nature of 40k"? If it's not fluff, is it rules? Because in my opinion, fluff is just as much a part of the game as rules. Although more people play the game for the game and not the fluff, without the fluff, there would be no game.


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## Tuck3r (Apr 9, 2010)

That and even in the fluff not every space marine is unbelivable allpowerful and stuff... just the ones that the novels focus on for example
Ragnar Blackmane- space wolves- being groomed to become next greatwolf
Rafen - Blood Angel - Being groomed for leedership by dante
and a hos of other examples that i don't particularly feel like lookin up at the moment those are just my favorite two. the marines in fluff are all so Enormously bad ass that one can take on squads of guardsmen because those are the ones that interest ppl for the most part. the reason fluff seems dis proportionate is because it focuses on ppl who in the tabletop rules are traditionally independant characters and when playing my blood angels out o their new codex mephiston killed and entire squad of guardians on his own. i the nearby ppl engaged with others so i took my lib in. he was hit 2wice. BTW that would've killed other head liby's but mephiston kicks more ass than both njall and tigirius. 
BOOYAA :thank_you:


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Technically though the fluff would have had to have come first, you can't have Astartes models without first developing what an Astartes is!
> 
> And quite clearly, a tabletop game has to be fair and balanced - the background material is a better representation of what Astartes are capable of, rather than their stats on the board.


This holds true for all of 40k, and not just Space Marines.

If the table top were to hold true to fluff, 'Nids would need models that outnumbered their opponents by an insane amount... the same could be said for IG as well as Orks. 

When regarding what is "true", the rule should be to hold more to fluff than table top rules. TT has been an needs to be designed with a pretty strict balance in mind, to include playability, cost of models, mechanics, and fun. It's not as much fun nor easy to balance a "True" space marine, nor would it be cost feasible to field the appropriate number of tyranids.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

gally912 said:


> This holds true for all of 40k, and not just Space Marines.
> 
> If the table top were to hold true to fluff, 'Nids would need models that outnumbered their opponents by an insane amount... the same could be said for IG as well as Orks.
> 
> When regarding what is "true", the rule should be to hold more to fluff than table top rules. TT has been an needs to be designed with a pretty strict balance in mind, to include playability, cost of models, mechanics, and fun. It's not as much fun nor easy to balance a "True" space marine, nor would it be cost feasible to field the appropriate number of tyranids.


This might be an intersting way of working things out, applying fluff directly to table top rules.
Start with the most basic force allowed by the FOC, 1 SM Captain and 2 five man Tactical Squads all with standard equipment.
Going by the fluff, what would an opposing force need to be made up of to stand a chance of beating the SM force?


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## elkhantar (Nov 14, 2008)

Tuck3r said:


> at range it won't hit as often as a tau fire warrior...


I just wanted to point out that in fact, SMs have better aim than a fire warrior, not only in fluff, but also in the tabletop rules (BS4>BS3) and for sure they are more than likely to splat the little blue man. Better armour save, better hit probability, the same wounding probability, and only slightly less range that can be mitigated with the use of cover? piece of cake! (but they also individually cost more points, for a reason).

The nob in CC is another completely different thing, it would come down to equipment mostly (power weapon? choppa? power claw? power fist?). But that said, nobs are supposed to be really badass in CC, so it's fine by me if some oversized green ape fungus can match my marine in CC, both in fluff or tabletop.

Aaand I also wanted to point out that if you want to go with the tabletop rules to establish SMs individual power, you have to consider that there are several editions of the game, and that in 2nd ed marines (and particularly terminators) were pretty powerful (I didn't play before 2e, so I really can't tell how they were on the beginning).

To answer normtheunsavoury's question, it would depend on the environment. If it was in the open in a straight head to head confrontation, a couple of platoons of guardsmen with a vet unit with plasmas could be enough. If it was in a guerrilla environment, said team could probably take on a whole base (multiple platoons with armoured vehicles, sentinels, etc) by themselves.


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## Tuck3r (Apr 9, 2010)

hmm... i was unaware that the tau sucked that much. i figured they'd at least match the space marine's BS but i've never looked at the codex... oh well. serves the space commies right


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