# Whip of Subversion



## Critta (Aug 6, 2008)

Hi there - got a couple of questions related to the Whip of Subversion, on paper it looks like it could be a pretty nice 25pt item, one unsaved hit and any if the model which is hit has not made it's attacks yet - you get to allocate them against his own models.

The bits the item description is a litte fuzzy on are the following:

1) If the enemy is killed, so you miss out on re-allocating their attacks, or do they attack before they die?

2) If you are in a challenge with the person you hit, what do you do, by the rules of the challenge they can only fight with you, but I'm a little confused in this circumstance.

I'm sure I've had other thoughts regarding it, if anyone could help shed light onto the subject I'd be most appreciative


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Critta said:


> 1) If the enemy is killed, so you miss out on re-allocating their attacks, or do they attack before they die?


Dead men tell no tales, nor whip any(undeads not counted ). The target will need to survive the beating first, the whole volley of hits, and then attack. Look at WoC characters stats and most other heroes stats and do the math...:alcoholic:



Critta said:


> 2) If you are in a challenge with the person you hit, what do you do, by the rules of the challenge they can only fight with you, but I'm a little confused in this circumstance.


Its ment to force the victim to kill his unit, disregarding circumstances, but that is not clear. Just stating "forcing him to..." is another vague GW fuckup new rule thing. Your characters will(most likely) challenge, so the weapon would be completly useless otherwise. This is another thing that would want a propper FAQ clarification from that book...
It still is however(useless) get a GW/flail/whatever and save points and gain on the killing front:good:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

It does not say anywhere that he cannot target himself.

For the best use, and if you know that your Exalted Champion (never put on Lord) is against a Faster army (Initiative Wise), give him the Helm of Many Eyes (stupidity, Blargh), but you should be able to get your 4 attacks to hit.

Characters will (Most likely) challenge - wrong. They will always challenge =D. It's a shame, but that's why it is only 25pts.

But yes, get a GW if you are taking HoME.


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## Critta (Aug 6, 2008)

So, not really general use item, but I could see this being incredibly handy against some of the more cheesy special characters with enough wounds not to just be killed off the bat, perhaps even against normal characters who are heavily armoured.

Hmm, I think I'm gonna have to stop theoryhammering this one and just try and to see what happens


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Its always a fine line if some dubious magical item is worth it in WHFB. 
Generally talking Sorcerers and arcane items tend to be more point worth then melee only characters. Simply due to the fact that they will be usefull atleast 2 times per whole game turn always(untill killed): your and the opponents magic phase.
Melee only items need to be "better" to actually fit into lists, a simple flail on an Exalted Champion will make him s7 the first turn of combat. That _really_ counts, a ½n½ chance of making some hero attacks his models is random beyond whats acceptable(imho).
Due to horsie inflation for heroes, aka the you can hide with bigger bases in RnF units rule, the save inflation has sky rocketed. Why have an Empire Hero with 4+ save on foot when you can have 1+ mounted instead?
S5 aint very impressive, its not bad but not awsome either, S7 _is_ impressive and when its cheaper too the choice is done...



Vaz said:


> They will always challenge =D


You can get around that by challenging with the champion instead, so they must not be in challenge...


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I'm not getting into that argument again.

I take it how it should be played, rather than a cock up Games Workshop DevTeam made.

But yes, unless it's on a fast moving unit (or even a Chosen Champion, if you have the spare points, although items such as Collar of Khorne (for example) tend to be better, giving MR to your unit, than to increase the killiness of the unit (which I suppose you're not really doing). However, the bonus is that you don't forgo your Normal Weapon if you take the whip, so you can still have your S6 2 Attack Chosen. I'm rambling, but for a larger point game, it's still a viable choice.


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## S0ULDU5T (Sep 9, 2008)

The whip does say 'other' models which means it cannot target itself, and since codex beats rulebook you can force your opponent to attack his unit even in a duel. of course, if he's already dead, then he doesn't allocate his attacks anywhere.


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