# Is Lorgar Now a Badass? [Potential Aurelian Spoilers Alert!]



## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Hi there!

First of all I really would like to congratulate Mr ADB in making a very enjoyable and engaging story. It was the first book written by the man I have read and was really impressed by it.

Moving on to the main topic Lorgar is presented in a very different light since his fight with Corax and we, well, find out how much more badass he is!

As an example in the novel alone he manages to nearly kill daemon Fulgrim, controls Horus with mind powers, said mind powers could almost be equal to Magnus, Beats up the Unbound and shows an alternate future where he batters the shit of Guilleman and kills him.

I have not yet read The First Heretic but has Lorgar always been this immense or is this a new development?

I ask because generally Lorgar has always been depicted as the weakest Primarch and we know he gets beaten up by Corax. However this new interpretation seems so much more powerful than has previously been seen in my eyes.

Anyone agree or am I just exagarating?


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## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

Haven't read it yet but I know ADB was talking up that we haven't seen the true daemonic potential of Lorgar yet. That's all fine, he seemed like he was a volcano waiting to explode. Any kind of fallout should be impressive to an extent but if _all_ of the above is true (and not taken too far out of context) then it sounds OTT.

For clarification, when you mentioned 'the Unbound' did mean An'ggrath?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> To say "Lorgar was weak" as if that was all there was to it sort of misses the point and signifies a shocking blindness to nuance.
> 
> The galactic war had finally kicked off, and whether he liked it or not, he was committed to a side. The battle lines had been chosen, and destiny awaited.
> 
> ...





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> It should have been obvious though that Lorgar was never _weak_. He was a Primarch, a son of the Emperor, that alone should have been enough to deter anyone from calling him _weak_. He wasn't unnecessarily aggressive, he wasn't a warmonger, he wasn't a warlord. He was a philosopher who attempted to enlighten the emergent Imperium through logic, reason and faith. I fail to see how that instead makes him weak. As I said before, he always had the potential to be as aggressive or powerful as any of his brothers, but he chose not to (until post-Isstvan at least).
> 
> You have to put it in context. Lorgar had fallen to Chaos decades before Isstvan V, the sheer amount of suspense and anxiety at how he would enlighten humanity to the lies of the Emperor, and the eventual acceptance that it could only be achieved through bloodshed and war would have seriously played on his mind. When Horus fell and the Heresy finally erupted Lorgar realised that (in the words of AD-B) _"it was, in every way - spiritually, emotionally, physically and militarily - time to nut up or shut up."_
> 
> ...


[ten characters]


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

I don't think getting beat up by Corax makes anyone weak, especially considering Corax, gave off the impression to me, of a really,really,really, intense kind of guy. I mean the man is almost Berserker, during the Battle for Istvaan. anyone who goes toe to toe with 2 primarchs, and gets away almost unscathed, is a bad,bad, man


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I don't think anyone is actually saying "Lorgar is a weakling" 

I think most people are saying that in _First Heretic_, Lorgar is portrayed as the least martially skilled/inclined primarch, the one who probably excels the least at feats of arms

this inferrence is based on 
1) Lorgar's preference for being a preacher/philosopher rather than a warrior/general 
2) Corax's domination of him during single combat 
3) Curze's condescension toward him 

I suppose that Lorgar could've been a great warrior if he had the desire to be one, but I also think the primarchs had different talents

if Lorgar realised after Istvaan that he needed to become a better fighter, I'm sure he could've done so by focusing on improvement in that area

however, I doubt that he could've reached the level of certain primarchs (i.e. Angron, Sanguinius, Russ, Fulgrim, Khan) even if he dedicated all his effort to becoming a master of close combat


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

I guess 'The Primarchs' will shed a bit more light on him too. Maybe Istavaan was a wake up call that he had to get his sh*t together and batter a few of his brothers to maintain his allies' respect and ensure they followed his lead.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Actually I think this story has catapulted Lorgar into the top half of the Primarch strength table.

One of the Primarchs you mentioned, Sanguinius got his legs broken by a generic Greater Daemon of Khorne. Lorgar beats the crap out of Ann'grath the Unbound himself. I.E. That big fuck scary monster that is much harder than any "normal" Bloodthirster.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Actually I think this story has catapulted Lorgar into the top half of the Primarch strength table.
> 
> One of the Primarchs you mentioned, Sanguinius got his legs broken by a generic Greater Daemon of Khorne. Lorgar beats the crap out of Ann'grath the Unbound himself. I.E. That big fuck scary monster that is much harder than any "normal" Bloodthirster.


I haven't read the source of Sangy's fight, but from the Lex it looks like his men were ambushed by a Daemonic army. I'd assume Sangy would be wounded or otherwise have his strength depleted from fighting off the Daemon army first. This is merely conjecture on my part, however.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Actually I think this story has catapulted Lorgar into the top half of the Primarch strength table.


I very much dislike the notion that people seem to think there is a ranked heirachy in terms of Primarch strength or fighting ability. I think the complete opposite is true.



Stephen_Newman said:


> One of the Primarchs you mentioned, Sanguinius got his legs broken by a generic Greater Daemon of Khorne. Lorgar beats the crap out of Ann'grath the Unbound himself. I.E. That big fuck scary monster that is much harder than any "normal" Bloodthirster.


For the record, Ka'Banda is not a _"generic"_ Bloodthirster. He is the Lord of Bloodthirsters and described as the mightiest of Khorne's servants.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

Spoilers From Aurelian ...damn now I feel like I have to get the book. I haven't read it but just going by spoilers....so I'm going by what others are saying. 

So pretty much from what I gather this is a daemon empowered Lorgar that made him stronger or just Lorgar with more back bone? Plus I think someone mentioned that a daemon was telling Lorgar a what if....? about the future outcome..this raises alarms bells. I mean how much can you actually trust a daemon to tell you anything. Of course I think a daemon will say something to sway the primarch to chaos cause. 

So I'm not sure about the Roberto vs Lorgar thing( again I haven't read it but will try to get my hands on that book ). If that part was just a foretelling it's not something that actually happened. 

Sorry if I'm wrong in my assumption but haven't read the book but just going by spoilers.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I very much dislike the notion that people seem to think there is a ranked heirachy in terms of Primarch strength or fighting ability. I think the complete opposite is true.
> 
> 
> 
> For the record, Ka'Banda is not a _"generic"_ Bloodthirster. He is the Lord of Bloodthirsters and described as the mightiest of Khorne's servants.


1. Sorry about that but I like to think that there is some sort of power comparison between the primarchs. Many readers like myself wonder about who could be the most powerful primarch. Yes I know they are all primarchs and from this each of them already has godlike powers but even Horus himself said that each Primarch inherited a different aspect of the Emperor so I among others wonder who got the best bits. Not trying to sway you here. Just explaining my opinion and reasoning.

2. I was not aware Ka'Bandha was the Lord of Bloodthirsters. I always thought that Khornes mightiest servants were An'grath, Doombreed, Skarbrand at this point and later Angron. Not aware about his power and I apologize for overlooking that.

Although it still raises the point that Lorgar was able to defeat the greatest Bloodthirster alive in the current lore (I assume An'grath is still the strongest Bloodthirster in 30K too? Correct me if I am wrong) therefore assuming that Sanguinius lost to a less powerful Bloodthirster.

Also I would like to mention that both Sanguinius and Lorgar were ambushed by their Bloodthirster enemies.

As for the Roboute Guilliman scene. The Daemon that shows this is Fateweaver itself and had been sanctioned by all the Gods to only tell the truth in this conversation. He says that Guilliman will die by Lorgar's hand if he leads the attack on Calth personally. However if he does so he will fail his greater mission (I presume enlightening mankind on the Chaos Gods) but if does not lead then he will lose respect amongst the Primarchs but succeed in his greater mission.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Except that he does fail in his greater mission. The Imperium still stands, having rejected the primordial truth and Lorgar. The Heresy is a failure both militarily and religiously. Lorgar was duped again. That is what the Chaos gods do, they lie. Time and time again the protagonists in the Heresy novels are manipulated with half truths and lies by the ruinous powers. 

I thought one of the key points of Fateweaver was that he always told one truth and one lie and that not even the god's could force him to just tell truths (otherwise presumably tzeentch would always force it to tell just the truth).


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Anyone can have a bad day, and anyone can have a lucky day. Just because one guy got the drop on another one time does not make him automatically beat him in all future fights. Authors use fights as plot points and some times twist reality a little too much.

You can think of all the primarchs as generic clay that the author then will mold and twist into whatever form they wish. Some times the authors' versions don't match up at all.


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## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

Stephen_Newman said:


> 2. I was not aware Ka'Bandha was the Lord of Bloodthirsters. I always thought that Khornes mightiest servants were An'grath, Doombreed, Skarbrand at this point and later Angron. Not aware about his power and I apologize for overlooking that.
> 
> Although it still raises the point that Lorgar was able to defeat the greatest Bloodthirster alive in the current lore (I assume An'grath is still the strongest Bloodthirster in 30K too? Correct me if I am wrong) therefore assuming that Sanguinius lost to a less powerful Bloodthirster.


Ka'Bandha is mentioned as being the greatest of Bloodthirsters in C:GK. So he's up there. Then again An'ggrath doesn't get the title 'Lord of Bloodthirsters' or 'Guardian of the Throne of Skulls' by playing second dog either. Ugh, it's a mess. I think Matt Ward pulled a big derp; he either has no clue about An'ggrath or chooses to completely ignore FW's output.

As for the battle between An'ggrath and Lorgar, I'm gonna have to wait until I've read it myself. There's been differing feedback on the issue. Some have suggested the fight seemed forced and even like a setup to make Lorgar feel more empowered and confident, which sounds like the most realistic interpretation at the moment.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Rems said:


> Except that he does fail in his greater mission. The Imperium still stands, having rejected the primordial truth and Lorgar. The Heresy is a failure both militarily and religiously.


You're assuming that his greater mission was the destruction of the Imperium. _Legion_ strongly suggests that the aftermath of the Heresy is exactly the state that the Gods wanted. The Imperium has embraced religion which was always Lorgar's goal, they even embraced his specific book and faith. Calling the Heresy a failure is a broad simplification and potentially a misunderstanding based on assigning human goals to alien Gods.


As far as Lorgar's new found badassery goes. I haven't read _Aurelian_ yet so this is speculation, however it seems to me that Lorgar becomes one of the first Primarchs to actively embrace the empowerment of the Gods. Horus v. Sang shows us that once the Gods take a side the fight can quickly become unbalanced. What I mean by this is that Lorgar hasn't necessarily gained any more skill or ability so much as gaining new powers. Meaning that Daemon-Lorgar is probably pretty high in the power arrangement compared to 'regular' Primarchs but Daemon-Lorgar is likely in roughly the same place compared to the other Daemon-Primarchs, who simply don't exist as of the time of _Aurelian, _correct me if that's wrong.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I think that it's interesting with Lorgar. With a few exceptions all the primarchs were created badass.You look at the mission ahead and it doesn't make sense for the emperor to create 19 badasses and one bitch. Lorgar chose to be a lion with a rabbit mentality.I'm not impressed by anything I've heard of him in Aurealian. None of the other primarchs have ascended to deamon prince level. Let's see him try that shit with Angron the prince of blood. He would get owned. He got powerful by ascending. His domination of Fulgrim to me isn't that impressive either.Fulgrim is possesed and not a daemon prince. Who knows how powerful he would be if he had willingly comitted to Chaos.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

kwak76 said:


> So pretty much from what I gather this is a daemon empowered Lorgar that made him stronger or just Lorgar with more back bone?


Essentially just Lorgar with more back bone, he was not daemon-empowered. 



kwak76 said:


> Plus I think someone mentioned that a daemon was telling Lorgar a what if....? about the future outcome..this raises alarms bells. I mean how much can you actually trust a daemon to tell you anything. Of course I think a daemon will say something to sway the primarch to chaos cause.


There is no reason to not believe the Oracle in this matter, of course there is always the possibility that it was lying but then there is always the possibility that anyone is lying. The daemon's prophecy will be vindicated when Argel Tal is killed by the Lord of Angels, so I don't believe there is any reason to disbelieve the prophecy of Lorgar killing Guilliman (if he chose to personally go to Calth). It is all about the choice for Lorgar: slay Guilliman and lose the war or win the war and leave fate to deal with Guilliman. 



Stephen_Newman said:


> 1. Sorry about that but I like to think that there is some sort of power comparison between the primarchs. Many readers like myself wonder about who could be the most powerful primarch. Yes I know they are all primarchs and from this each of them already has godlike powers but even Horus himself said that each Primarch inherited a different aspect of the Emperor so I among others wonder who got the best bits. Not trying to sway you here. Just explaining my opinion and reasoning.


Yeah, of course.  Everyone bears a different opinion.



Stephen_Newman said:


> 2. I was not aware Ka'Bandha was the Lord of Bloodthirsters. I always thought that Khornes mightiest servants were An'grath, Doombreed, Skarbrand at this point and later Angron. Not aware about his power and I apologize for overlooking that.
> 
> Although it still raises the point that Lorgar was able to defeat the greatest Bloodthirster alive in the current lore (I assume An'grath is still the strongest Bloodthirster in 30K too? Correct me if I am wrong) therefore assuming that Sanguinius lost to a less powerful Bloodthirster.


I think there is more of a case to suggest that Ka'Bandha is the most powerful servant of Khorne to be honest. _Collected Visions_, _Codex: Blood Angels_, and IIRC _Codex: Grey Knights_ mentions him as the most powerful bloodthirster.

I am not doubting the power of An'ggrath (who I believe is also mentioned as the _Lord of Bloodthirsters_) but I just think there is more of a case to suggest Ka'Bandha.



Rems said:


> Except that he does fail in his greater mission. The Imperium still stands, having rejected the primordial truth and Lorgar. The Heresy is a failure both militarily and religiously. Lorgar was duped again. That is what the Chaos gods do, they lie. Time and time again the protagonists in the Heresy novels are manipulated with half truths and lies by the ruinous powers.


As _MEQ_ said, that is assuming the destruction of the Imperium was this greater mission. Lorgar took his Legion (along with Angron and the World Eaters) into the galactic east following Isstvan V, but we don't know what for. We know that Kor Phaeron led a part of the Legion against Calth, but we don't know what Lorgar and Angron were upto during the _Age of Darkness_ proper.



Rems said:


> I thought one of the key points of Fateweaver was that he always told one truth and one lie and that not even the god's could force him to just tell truths (otherwise presumably tzeentch would always force it to tell just the truth).


The gods had put the Great Game on hold, they had forged a pact and an alliance in order to bring down the Emperor. This was a momentous occasion. Part of that pact was to recruit Lorgar and test him, and then set in motion the events that would lead to the Heresy. Khorne broke the pact by personally testing Lorgar by sending An'ggrath to kill him, but the agreed method of testing Lorgar was by sending Kairos as an envoy of all the gods, and for the only time in eternity allowing him to tell the complete truth. During the prose, Karios breaks his usual nature of one head telling the truth and the other a lie to simply talking in unison, so I don't see any reason not to take his word at face-value.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> You're assuming that his greater mission was the destruction of the Imperium. _Legion_ strongly suggests that the aftermath of the Heresy is exactly the state that the Gods wanted. The Imperium has embraced religion which was always Lorgar's goal, they even embraced his specific book and faith. Calling the Heresy a failure is a broad simplification and potentially a misunderstanding based on assigning human goals to alien Gods.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> As _MEQ_ said, that is assuming the destruction of the Imperium was this greater mission. Lorgar took his Legion (along with Angron and the World Eaters) into the galactic east following Isstvan V, but we don't know what for. We know that Kor Phaeron led a part of the Legion against Calth, but we don't know what Lorgar and Angron were upto during the _Age of Darkness_ proper.


But are the goals of the god's and lorgar the same? 

While i would agree that the Chaos powers have achieved what they want more or less in regards to the state of the galaxy, is that the same goal as Lorgar's?

Lorgar wanted to enlighten humanity to the existence of the Chaos Gods and convert them to their worship. He's arguably done the first (to a limited degree, the one's who actually know about Chaos are those least likely to fall to it) but has failed in the second, which is arguable the more important one. He wanted to spread his new found faith, reveal the Imperial Truth for the lie it was. He has not entirely achieved this, his greater mission was, ultimately, a failure. 

The Imperium has now embraced relegion, but it's not the religion he wanted them to.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

To be honest people convert to chaos all the time in the imperium. The Ordo Malleus will tell you that. Cults,prophets,and sorcerers are constant threats to the Imperium.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Yea, but the average citizen, the great ordinary mass of humanity has no knowledge of Chaos. The names of the god's are forbidden information, soldiers and civilians who encounter chaos are mindwiped or killed.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Well with the warp prevalent genes in human beings the daemons and gods can whisper to humans which the imperium can't stop. That's why the Hereticus exists because no matter how tight they try to keep that info, guys still get exposed to it including inquisitors.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Yes correct, but your point is?

People become corrupted/ turn to the ruinous powers yes. However they occur in relatively small numbers, often via unprotected psychers. The odd convert is a far cry however from what Lorgar envisioned.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I'm pretty sure every chaos problem the imperium has starts with a human. The eldar and ork are summoning daemons and such. Besides the black crusades most of the Chaos manifestations are from cults and covens that work underneath. I can't think to myself what else started as an underground belief system that worked in secret to pepetuate there faith......c'mon it'll come to me.......oh yeah the Lectio Divinatatus.Yeah that was the illegal cult that was around during the Emperor's time worshipping him as a god in secret under there noses. Who started that again...oh yeah Lorgar Aurelian. Wonder how the faith he founded is doing these days? So yeah, the Chaos worship going on underneath the imperium the same tactic Lorgar used to establish the other faith.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Well In believe Lorgar has succeeded.

Simply put he place a faith in the new humanity. Yes it was not dedicated to the ruinous powers but other source books such as Liber Chaotica tell us that the Chaos Gods are empowered by faith of others and that all the Gods share the same realm. I.E. the warp. This means that whilst average Joe guardsman believes that by standing resolute, changing tides of battle, killing enemy leaders whilst enjoying it thinks he is supporting his Emperor he is in fact, mainly because the Emperor is not a God empowering Nurgle, Tzeentch, Khorne and Slaanesh respectfully.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> I'm pretty sure every chaos problem the imperium has starts with a human.


I am sure every gunshot that takes place in the Imperium starts with a human.



Deadeye776 said:


> The eldar and ork are summoning daemons and such.


The Eldar, both sides, despise Chaos in all its forms given their history with it and the Dark Eldar do not allow psykers. 

The Orks have no need to call Daemons and there has never been a case where they have summoned one.



Deadeye776 said:


> Besides the black crusades most of the Chaos manifestations are from cults and covens that work underneath. I can't think to myself what else started as an underground belief system that worked in secret to pepetuate there faith......c'mon it'll come to me.......oh yeah the Lectio Divinatatus.Yeah that was the illegal cult that was around during the Emperor's time worshipping him as a god in secret under there noses. Who started that again...oh yeah Lorgar Aurelian. Wonder how the faith he founded is doing these days? So yeah, the Chaos worship going on underneath the imperium the same tactic Lorgar used to establish the other faith.


Chaos has invested itself in humanity more so than any other race and Chaos has been empowered by humanity more than any other sentient race given human nature. So of course you are going to see mostly human Chaos worshipers. It is the very reason why the Cabal told Alpharius that with the extinction of mankind, Chaos too will perish or be greatly diminished.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Rems said:


> But are the goals of the god's and lorgar the same?


Well exactly. But this _"greater mission"_ that Lorgar goes to achieve in the galactic east is said to have been a mission ordained by the gods. Horus seems to think it folly, yet Lorgar goes anyway (Horus eventually gives him Angron and the World Eaters in support). So in this regard I think we can say the gods and Lorgar's goals align.



Rems said:


> While i would agree that the Chaos powers have achieved what they want more or less in regards to the state of the galaxy, is that the same goal as Lorgar's?


Now that Lorgar has ascended? Quite possibly. 



Rems said:


> The Imperium has now embraced relegion, but it's not the religion he wanted them to.


No, but now that Lorgar is a daemon and the passage of the years is merely the blink of an eye I don't see it as a massive issue. Lorgar likely still desires to enlighten humanity, but he now has eternity to do so. Perhaps the methods/groundwork he has put in place to do so will take millennia to come to fruition (after all, he is now immortal).



Deadeye776 said:


> So yeah, the Chaos worship going on underneath the imperium the same tactic Lorgar used to establish the other faith.


Apart from the fact that decades before the Heresy Lorgar had already embraced Chaos, thus stopped supporting the latent Lectitio Divinitatus cult (if anything started repressing it). It may have been the method by which he attempted to establish a widespread Emperor-worshipping cult, but Lorgar doesn't really have much to do with the countless Chaos cults throughout the Imperium, they spring-up due to human nature/corruption/uncontrolled psykers et cetera, not because Lorgar has an active hand in promoting them.



Malus Darkblade said:


> The Orks have no need to call Daemons and there has never been a case where they have summoned one.


There are cases where Orks have summoned daemons (albeit unwittingly). There are cases where Orks have become corrupted themselves as well.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Rems said:


> But are the goals of the god's and lorgar the same?


We don't really know. My point was more that we don't know what Lorgar's goal was and there are ways that he could have achieved success despite the 'failure' of the Heresy.



> He wanted to spread his new found faith, reveal the Imperial Truth for the lie it was. He has not entirely achieved this, his greater mission was, ultimately, a failure.


Assuming that this is his greater mission he has at least partially achieved it. The Imperium of 40k is far more aware of Chaos than it ever was in 30k. Even if the average citizen doesn't know the names or true natures of the Gods they know that they exist, why else would they be so afraid of them? They accept that they have power and believe that they can have an influence on people's lives, which is far more than they did when the Emperor was alive. And Lorgar and the Heresy have completely and utterly disproven the Imperial Truth. A secular humanity disappeared in that era, largely thanks to Lorgar's actions. So if Lorgar's goal was to show that the Imperial Truth was a lie and that true Gods exist, then he has done so.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yes he is a badass, but a badass who will get gutted by Corax if he attempts to beat him man on man.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed, though Fateweaver could of course be lying, its interesting to note that they tell him if he ever faces Corax he will die. Though of course he did, yet didn't die, though only because of Curzes intervention. Not so clear as to whether they meant just the Istvaan fight or any time. As we know from Russ and Magnus that immense psychic power does not gurantee a win against a foe who is incredible in close combat like Russ or Corax.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

They told him about facing Corax post drop site massacre didn't they? Wouldn't they indicate they were speaking about facing Corax post his "spiritual power up"?

Additionally, I agree that I believe certain primarchs just naturally counter other primarchs. Immense psychic power seems to be trumped by those primarchs who have immense psychic resistance such as Russ, possibly Corax (though never confirmed anywhere).

Curze from his fight with the Lion, seems to also have extreme stamina, durability and strength, going by multiple of the comments from the observation of that fight...

"His eyes glowed with an unholy light radiating power"
and all the comments about how skeletal and gaunt he looked, yet had immense super strength and shrugged off pain and damage like it was nothing.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

It was before the drop site massacre. It was during his pilgrimage where he ended up on Cadia, which is before everything happened with Horus etc.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Post drop site massacre he becomes pretty strong though, from the descriptions....dominates and mind controls Horus, nearly kills daemon Fulgrim, and proceeds to banish Magnus and threaten him.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Maybe Corax is his real adversary rather than Guilliman.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I think a rigid hierarchy of primarch power levels is a bit simplistic 

but in the area of single combat, it's more not less realistic for some primarchs to be better than others because of innate talent, upbringing, preference etc. 

Lorgar is better at oratory than Angron, Angron is better at fighting than Lorgar...makes sense
it makes less sense to say that one primarch is generally superior to another


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I like ADB's take on it (that is, the hierarchy of "power"):



> These discussions… They’re not for me. I find them childish, and I think they miss the point. “Which primarch could beat X, Y and Z?” It’s not that simple. It’s not a matter of Paper always beating Rock, and Rock always beating Scissors. That’s why those “Which Primarch Is Toughest?” threads are so worthless. *At their peaks, the primarchs are essentially the same, with things mostly dependent on circumstances.* Fights are fights, *with all the chaos of emotion, fear, fate, and the thousands of things that can go wrong*. They’re not sterile events of “Well, he’s stronger, so he’ll always win.” No race or fight ever plays out that way. Don’t be allergic to nuance. That’s not cool.


Emphasis on the boldened parts.

Where Lorgar's mission is concerned, I doubt that he succeeded... and I doubt that the outcome that we see in 40k was Chaos ' #1 choice. That having been said, I doubt that it's by any means anything worse than a happy alternative for them, either.

I mean, the _ideal outcome_ is pretty much spelled out: Humanity embraces "the Primordial Truth" and the worship of Chaos, and buys into an "enlightened" existence of symbiosis with the powers of the Warp. That doesn't happen, though.

On the other hand, the Emperor - "the Anathema", as they call him - is for all intents and purposes crippled, dying, and largely powerless on his Golden Throne. Humanity is led by fanatical madmen who preside over the most dogmatically brutal theocracy imaginable. If you want to call that a loss, that's about as good as they come.

That's not good enough for Lorgar, though, and I'd argue that another indication that he "lost" can be seen in the Primarch himself. Lorgar was an idealist even as he plotted a holy war that he knew would see thousands of worlds burned, countless billions slain, etc. He really _believed_ that Chaos was the answer, that their terrible truth was better than ignorance. The ruinous stalemate and forced retreat after the Siege of Terra was not the outcome he was looking for.

His absence, ten thousand years later, speaks volumes. I would go so far as to say it indicates that he is absolutely sickened by the outcome of things. I mean, he made decisions based on frustratingly incomplete visions of the future, and despite all his efforts and sacrifices he failed to reach his desired end-state. To top it all off, he has to face the bitter irony of his people being prevented from reaching his "truth" due to the fact that his father - the architect of their enslavement (as he sees it) - has supplanted the rightful gods as the object of human worship!



And he has (apparently) failed to free Fulgrim, too! Unless, of course, the Phoenician decided that he enjoyed being a multi-limbed serpent-man at some point!


A quick aside: I'm willing to go on the record and say that "Aurelian" is the finest single book written about the Horus Heresy thus far. Only certain pages and paragraphs from other books gave me more pleasure or captured my attention more than this novella.

Well done, ADB.

Cheers,
P.


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## mc wazzahamma (Jul 12, 2011)

The Word Bearers IA has this to say about Lorgar's eventual fate:



> As time passed and the atrocities carried out in the name of Lorgar rose to new heights, he was rewarded by his patrons with the gift of daemonhood. Now he truly was the equal of a god, and the birth scream of this newest daemon of Chaos was said by Astropaths to have echoed through the warp with triumphant vindication. From the Daemon-world of Sicarus, Lorgar watches over his Legion, directing its myriad wars and engagements, orchestrating the vast corruption from within that the Imperium suffers at the hands of his innumerable cults and covens.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

The Word Bearer series from Black Library however states that Lorgar has been in seclusion for the past 10,000 years. He sits in the largest cathedral on Sicarus. It is the more recent fluff but your mileage may vary.


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