# CSM bastard tactics for bastard people.



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Here are some advanced and lets say unfriendly tactics for the hardened CSM vets out their (Well the ones that don't already know them anyways).

Side note: Feel free to suggest your own bastard tactics for CSM's

1) Invincible defiler king.
-Basically what you do is model your defiler so its chassis is low to the ground, then march it behind your rhino advance, do to the emplacement and the design of the defiler body you will by the books receive a constant obscured while granting your victims nothing in return.

Notes: 
-Does not often work if mid range, and enemy is on the second of third level of a building.
-Is actually clearly supported by the rules, as 55+% of the models profile and mass is in its lower section hence 50% of the model will constantly be out of LoS as long as none of the rhino's explode.

2) Dawn of war can suck my obliterators
-Kind of a minor boast to oblitorators usefulness, but they are the only heavy long range sapport besies a defiler that can fufill its shooting roll when forced to walk on to the table (Assuming you are not deep stiking and can still see your targets).

Notes:
- Best used when you have no desire to deep strike your oblitorators.

3)Zig zag those rhinos.
-If you take a mech heavy list and your approach is narrow enough compared to your opponents long range support it is possible to constantly drive a new rhino in front of your column enough to obscure all the other while granting itself obscure from popping smoke.

Notes:
-Best used in smaller games or in a huge ass mech column.
-For best results leave enough room at the sides of the column to drive around if the lead tank gets immobilized or wrecked, and make sure to get the squad in the disabled vehicle to walk behind the new lead rhino.

4)Why the hell did you put that on your defiler.
-Never take more then 1 extra ranged weapon on a defiler besides the battle cannon, as you will rarely if ever shoot them considering that its almost always better to fleet if the BC is gone, and the extra attack will make the defiler noticeable more effective in CC while the lost auto cannon or flamer will often do little to hurt its chances against its intended targets.

5)Don't spam powerfists you noob!
-Honestly if you take PF's on 4 separate squads it adds up to a entire wasted units worth of points, and will often only show a minor both against 70% of all available targets. Serious on a regular marine VS marine basis a PF even on the charge can only be depended on to crank out 1 PF kill a turn, and this number is reduced to .05 depending on the enemies access to INV saves or armor values.

Notes:
-Some units are infinitely better for PF's then others. For example anything with 3 attacks base that isn't a HQ is a nice PF holds, and Berzerkers are the PF kings averaging 2-3 PF kills on the charge, and counting as Str9 for tank busting (WS5 makes all the difference as its the to hit roll that kills the low attacks of the PF).
-If your putting a PF on a HQ without EW then you are doing something wrong, and since we don't even have the option to do this anymore it is never a good idea to put PF's on HQ's.
- Multiple PF's only really pay of with multi charge as that crappy-1-2 kills goes up to 3-4 kills which is enough to break units or if they are fearless force another 2-3 armor saves.

6) Screw that I ain't fighting him, now his little buddy on the right that's more my kinda fight.
-When faced down by a enemy that you can't possibly beat in CC (C'tan, Carnifex, mephisto) the trick is to lash these idiot next to the weakest buggers you can find then multi charge them both, and direct all your attacks at the small fires if done right you can force 6-7 saves on their cheese tacular friends, and in the case of stuff like c'tans, and avatars with their relatively low sav actually kill them as a result.

Notes:
-When doing this make sure you have the advantage to ensure the big ones dies to fearless derpp wounds, for instance if you want to kill a bunch of ork nobs charge to berzerker units at them and a large unit ob boys, and laugh as they take 8 wounds from the massacre alone.
- This also works really well against none fearless enemies as you can often auto break them regardless of how may of your they kill when they get to strike.

7) Kamikaze the CSM way.
- Sadly CSM are one of the armies with the largest access to selections of 100-130 pts sacrificial units that can reliably kill tanks or mangle weak mc's while retaining a modicum of staying power afterwords. Csm Sacrificial units come in three flavors that vary from complete right off to may actually survive more then one turn, and of these units 2 deep strike and 1 is just plain fast.

The first form of sacrificial units is bikers with two special weapons, this units is most effective when it is used in a small 3-4 man squad with two melta or plasma hiding behind cover or turbo boasting with a icon of chaos undivided. The role of this unit is to deliver depp striking elements of your army, and gimp tanks that get within its 18" double pen melta/move. The key to this sacrificial unit is to actually stop the enemy from targeting them period till late game by hugging los blocking terrain or moving behind a land raider or rhino for turn 1-2.

The next form of sacrificial unit is the most common and some would say the most effective, is the termicide squad. With the ability to take a combi weapon on each 30pt terminator 3-4 will often guarantee a dead tank/squad/mc when they come down as long as they have the right combi weapon, and are near a icon. The ideal target is any 200+ pt heavy tank as the +1 on damage from melta will make it very hard to not kill or cripple said tank as long as you can reliably come down within 6". I personally prefer plasma, as it is just as effective against most tanks when firing at rear armor statistically, and is more versatile, and safe considering you only have to be within 12" of the target rather then risking 6", which can be dangerous without a icon. 

Also it is advised to take at least one PF, as on rare occasion the enemy will ignore them after the alpha strike or be unable to kill them, and the power fist will allow you to maybe kill another tank or shave another wound of a MC before the termicide squad dies. 

The last suicide unit is the deep striking 5 man melta raptor squad. These squads are designed to come in behind a isolated tank via deep strike hopefully killing it, then they proceed to hop behind cover till another target of opportunity presents its self. As with the bikes you may want to attach a IoCG for deep striking additional units...like obiltorators.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

There is a reason the defiler is the most hated unit in all of 40k. It has no base. I've seen it modeled to be absolutely obnoxious. Things like it being layed flat out like a crushed bug to gain cover saves as you say, then during their shooting phase they stand on their toes like a ballerina to give no intervening saves to their target, then back down to the ground in the same turn. I believe a guy got thrown out of a tournie at my local shop for doing that crap.


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## Mundungu (Jul 23, 2010)

Without being a dick about it, the legs of a defiler are over 50% of the model and the gun is on top. If you have terrain, rhino, land raider, etc at the right height, you can pull it off even when modeled to stand normally


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Yep no need to have it modelled especially just have the chassis low to the ground, and not as high as possible and you will get the 50% obscured. Don't believe me then take a two rhino's, put a defiler behind them then take to line of sight from a tactical marine or even some tanks and you will see that the magority of the model is obscured.

Also do to the fact I never mentioned switching the petitioning of the defiler during a game or having it especially modified your entire post was irrelevant ravener.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

You're talking about bastard play and I was telling you my experiences with people being bastards about how they use and model defilers. I believe that is completely relevant.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

True, but please keep the context relevant to either confirming or denying these tactics or purposing new ones. As simple commentary on questionable experience with people who have gone beyond simply using cruel tactics to out and out cheating is not related to the tactics presented here. 

Although I have to admit it was kinda dumb of him to expect to get away with actually changing the model during game for an advantage, kinda similar to those that tried to model CC units in the prone position to take advantage of true LoS.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Defilers suck dick and if you aren't taking powerfists on squad leaders you're doing it wrong.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

On every squad leader? Really? Lord waffle I am surprised by you suggesting in taking a possible 200-250 pts of wargear that may only see 1-2 turn of use depending on your enemy. Lets just throw points idiotically at the enemy while we are at it, hell lets take 8 heavy bolter havocs while were throwing around the concept of wasting 25%-13.5% of our armies on situational weapons. Also who the hell told you I said to take squad leader at all, because I know it wasn't me.

As for defiler yah they are not optimal, but if you like using the one truly CSM unit besides DP the suggested strategy doubles their survivability and costs nothing.

I also like the staggering levels of laziness shown by how you jumped into this thread commented on two points you don't like without trying to support your arguments, in as few characters as possible then screwed off like a thief in the night...classy real classy.


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## Dawnstar (Jan 21, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> Side note: Feel free to suggest your own bastard tactics for CSM's
> 
> 1) Invincible defiler king.
> -Basically what you do is model your defiler so its chassis is low to the ground, then march it behind your rhino advance, do to the emplacement and the design of the defiler body you will by the books receive a constant obscured while granting your victims nothing in return.
> ...


I really must say that this isn't a bastard tactic, it's modeling for advantage

Nothing clever about gluing your Defiler to be low to the ground and claiming a cover save. Its cheating


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## jfvz (Oct 23, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> 5) Screw that I ain't fighting him, now his little buddy on the right that's more my kinda fight.
> -When faced down by a enemy that you can't possibly beat in CC (C'tan, Carnifex, mephisto) the trick is to lash these idiot next to the weakest buggers you can find then multi charge them both, and direct all your attacks at the small fires if done right you can force 6-7 saves on their cheese tacular friends, and in the case of stuff like c'tans, and avatars with their relatively low sav actually kill them as a result.
> 
> Notes:
> ...


1. You have 2 no. 5s

2. I found out about this recentally, but since im also a nid player i did not like to find out you can kill my big mc by hitting little guys around it. it did make me rethink at least a few stratigies. But then my chaos side kicked in, no more having to waste so much of my high strength stuff on big mcs if i am smart. Even if you think you can take it still go with the little guys as well, 2 units for the price of 1.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Dawnstar said:


> I really must say that this isn't a bastard tactic, it's modeling for advantage
> 
> Nothing clever about gluing your Defiler to be low to the ground and claiming a cover save. Its cheating


I appreciate your feed back, but as stated you can claim this save as long as you did not idiotically make your defiler look as if its trying to tip toe, in fact I will post a image of my defiler later and you can tell me if it looks like it was modeled for advantage yet still according to true LoS it gets 48" from ground level shooting as its 55% obscured, and if you still disagree then I posit that a more definitive way to claim such a save is on a predator firing its primary weapon from behind a rhino (With the base models with not modeling changes required at all. 

Also not to nit pick, but modeling for advantage in its proper sense means modeling a unit in a way counter to the standard form in order to gain a benefit, and only a anal retentive jerk would call a difference of a 1/4 a inch from the ground on a model that has no actual established pose. Hell this is more like not putting a your terminator lord standing on a giant rock so you can still hit him behind a regular transport. In fact the tournament understanding of modeling for advantage is more closely exemplified as putting berzerkers laying prone so they can constantly be out of LoS in a cluttered city scape.

And jfvz could you clarify what you meant by "1. You have 2 no. 5s"

Also before closing the post I have to say I am disappointed by the lack of positive feedback on these tactics, however I am not alarmed at the amount of negative feedback as people are typically threatened by any tactic they see as unfair, or beyond the intended use of the rule set. Yet I maintain that none of what I have posted is cheating, and I have researched the legalities of all these posted tactics on a number of forums, and the fact remains not one person has actually made a sound debate against their legitimacy. There usefulness yes, but not their legitimacy.


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## jfvz (Oct 23, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> 5)Don't spam powerfists you noob!
> -Honestly if you take PF's on 4 separate squads it adds up to a entire wasted units worth of points, and will often only show a minor both against 70% of all available targets. Serious on a regular marine VS marine basis a PF even on the charge can only be depended on to crank out 1 PF kill a turn, and this number is reduced to .05 depending on the enemies access to INV saves or armor values.
> 
> Notes:
> ...


the 2 no.5s was just pointing out a typo, nothing of great meaning, highlighted the said 5s in this quote

Also i quite like the rhino tactic (no.3), through i can see it being a bit impractical, a bit of tweaking may result in a nice tactic. Also i think the rhino antie assult V deserves a mention here.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Your attitude towards the people posting in your 'tactica' is poor, at best. Keep that in mind for next time.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

My additude has been poor because with the exeption of jfvz and one other person I have had 4 posts by you (only one of which was relevant to discussing the tactics) one by dawn who presented a fair argument that I countered, and lord waffle the only other senior member to post a reply (And in all honesy his post was closer to trolling then anything). 

So you will excuse me if I get a bit flustered by how some of the only peaple to post simply repeated the same concerns about only one of the sugested tacitcs, and even then I was cordial in showing how said concerns are not founded.

Besides this is what my 2200+ post? In all my time here I have noticed nicety does not = conductive dicussions of tactics, what does is rationaly sound debate of the tactical marits of the suggested tactics, and their legalities. (Hence I am more then happy to debate these tactics if the person posting supports their argument)

Well thats enough derailing of the thread for now. So jfvz in accordance with your request I will further extend the section regarding advanced screeening using rhinos.


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

I would like to suggest an expansion on point 5A. Tailor each csm unit for a specific target. Smart wepon selections will increase the chances of your units actually doing what you need them to do.

My chaos army has 12 10 man csm units all built with a specific enemy/role in mind.
I have 2 dual flamer units led by AC with no wargear upgrades, 4 dual melta units with mixed aspiring champ weapons ((1) Powerfist and plasma (2) powerfist (3) no upgrades (4)plasma pistol) and 6 units of dual plasmagunners again with a weapon mix (though a high number of these also have a plasma pistol and more than half have power weapons)

I leave my heavy support fire to 6 units of havoks (again each with a specific role), 2 units of oblits and a selection of tanks/dreads. 

If i'm playing a big game then i know exactly what each unit is going to be best off fighting and i'm safe in the knowledge that i've not wasted points and that they're geared for their specific role.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> debate of the tactical marits of the suggested tactics, and their legalities. (Hence I am more then happy to debate these tactics if the person posting supports their argument)


You post tactics (that are known, legally sound, and widely used) and expected a debate? I figured this to be more of an informative post than one that's open to a discussion...


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## jfvz (Oct 23, 2010)

GrimzagGorwazza said:


> I would like to suggest an expansion on point 5A. Tailor each csm unit for a specific target. Smart wepon selections will increase the chances of your units actually doing what you need them to do.
> 
> My chaos army has 12 10 man csm units all built with a specific enemy/role in mind.
> I have 2 dual flamer units led by AC with no wargear upgrades, 4 dual melta units with mixed aspiring champ weapons ((1) Powerfist and plasma (2) powerfist (3) no upgrades (4)plasma pistol) and 6 units of dual plasmagunners again with a weapon mix (though a high number of these also have a plasma pistol and more than half have power weapons)
> ...


Not realy a bastered tactic but an add on to this:
Use the champ's combi option. It may not seem worth it for a single but it allows you to either further specilise the unit, e.g. a 3rd flamer shot as you go into cc, your most likely gunna use the flamers once anyway. Or to give the squad some flexibility and protection. e.g. a dual melta squad with a combi flamer will give them some anti hord protection, while a dual flamer squad wilth a combi melta gives you the choice to attack a vehicle if the opputunity arrises as well as a chance to kill or weaken a walker thats getting to snuggerly with your csm, with out resorting to the pf champ in melee


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Ravner298 said:


> You post tactics (that are known, legally sound, and widely used) and expected a debate? I figured this to be more of an informative post than one that's open to a discussion...


Whilst it is informative, there is room to challenge some of the tactics. For example, as has been said already, the short Defiler is certainly not universally accepted as legal, so there is room to discuss within which parameters (height, &c.) a Defiler is likely to be unchallenged.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> 5)Don't spam powerfists you noob!
> -Honestly if you take PF's on 4 separate squads it adds up to a entire wasted units worth of points, and will often only show a minor both against 70% of all available targets. Serious on a regular marine VS marine basis a PF even on the charge can only be depended on to crank out 1 PF kill a turn, and this number is reduced to .05 depending on the enemies access to INV saves or armor values.
> 
> Notes:
> ...


That is very, very good advice. I hate that people thing these are mandatory for every squad, even Initiative 5 Noise Marines.

The only other good one you missed is Plague Marines. Your striking at Initiative 3 anyway so you might as well put PF's on all your Champions.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

as long as the defiler is glued in place I don't think anyone will have a problem with how low it hangs to the ground


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Ravner298 said:


> as long as the defiler is glued in place I don't think anyone will have a problem with how low it hangs to the ground


Imo that statement is completely wrong, you *cannot model for advantage*. If a model can be deemed to have been posed a certain way to give it a tactical advantage it normally wouldn't have, for example, diminishing its visibility for line of sight, then I would argue thats a form of cheating.

You can't make your Champions kneel holding their swords all excalaber like, or Ork Kommandos crawling on their bellies as that would be cases of modelling for tactical advantage.

Same with a defiler if its modelled to low to the ground.


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> Imo that statement is completely wrong, you *cannot model for advantage*. If a model can be deemed to have been posed a certain way to give it a tactical advantage it normally wouldn't have, for example, diminishing its visibility for line of sight, then I would argue thats a form of cheating.
> 
> You can't make your Champions kneel holding their swords all excalaber like, or Ork Kommandos crawling on their bellies as that would be cases of modelling for tactical advantage.
> 
> Same with a defiler if its modelled to low to the ground.



Depends on the situation, both of the examples you just gave seem like cool and characterful ideas as far as being in the spirit of making a cool model are concerned and i would hesitate to assume that this kind of converting was done with the explicit aim of gaining an advantage. 

I only consider it to be modelling for advantage when it makes no sense in the context of the model or if that was in the forefront of the modellers mind ewhen he made the model. 
I have some skaters (stormboys) in my army for example that i've got doing ollies and mounted raised off of their bases. That gives them a better field of fire over terrain but wasn't the reason i modelled them in this way. I wanted the models to look characterful. If i see a conversion that looks like it's been done with the intention of making a cool showpiece i'll probabley let it slide or at the very least suggest to the player that during the game we should stand a full sized model next to him for the purpose of LOS. Most fair players will be happy with this as long as you mention it when you are starting and they hadn't been trying to cheat. 

If the defiler stands naturally in a way in which it is 50% obscurred by a rhino then i don't see a problem. If it's been modelled like a flat bug then shame on you.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

D-A-C said:


> Imo that statement is completely wrong, you *cannot model for advantage*. If a model can be deemed to have been posed a certain way to give it a tactical advantage it normally wouldn't have, for example, diminishing its visibility for line of sight, then I would argue thats a form of cheating.
> 
> You can't make your Champions kneel holding their swords all excalaber like, or Ork Kommandos crawling on their bellies as that would be cases of modelling for tactical advantage.
> 
> Same with a defiler if its modeled to low to the ground.


Agreed, but there is no universal standard for the defiler model. It has crab like legs, and it's the only walker with no base. That means any range of motion you can model it, would be acceptable without any modifications. A Defiler can be 'low' to the ground, with its legs bent, or it can be higher up depending on the angle you glue it in place. You cannot call someone out for the angle they glued the legs in because they are all realistic and acceptable.

edit; understand that when I mean low I dont mean flat out on the ground, I mean the legs are bent so that the chasis is stooped closer to the table.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> On every squad leader? Really?


Yes because otherwise you lose combat against similar units. If they can assault you and wipe out the entire squad, paying a tenth of the initial investment to automatically secure victory is immensely rewarding.

You will never go through a standard game with chaos thinking, "God. I wish I didn't bring powerfists"
They're built into the cost of the unit carrying them to do an optimal job. Let me further emphasize. Let's say you saved 100 points by not taking four of them and bought a termiecide unit. Will that termiecide unit kill all four of my powerfistful units before I get into combat(And subsequently win said combats?). The short answer is no, nothing in the book is going to chew through enough ablative wounds to get to my champions, and even if you do, you've failed target selection, so I end up winning anyway.
Plus having every unit be a threat to everything in the known universe is smart for a mere 100 points.



LukeValantine said:


> Also who the hell told you I said to take squad leader at all, because I know it wasn't me.


See previous post. If you want a mathematical breakdown of how superior one unit is than the other I could break it down for you. Though you present a clever alternative.
Bear in mind that without any champs, you can't use the situational GD(No big loss), or threaten anything that comes within charge range, dreadnoughts auto-paste units. And you never invalidate armor saves(Meaning a single derpcaptain with pw might slay you)


LukeValantine said:


> I also like the staggering levels of laziness shown by how you jumped into this thread commented on two points you don't like without trying to support your arguments, in as few characters as possible then screwed off like a thief in the night...classy real classy.


I'm always classy. I'm a class-act.

Plus I've argued this endlessly with others and we've always come to the same conclusion, if Lord Waffles graces a chaos tactica thread, he's going to tear it into shape and leave it a functional corpse, but a tournament-level functioning corpse.

Also it's chaos, dude. It's numbers. Very easy to calculate numbers. I don't need to write a philosophy paper mixed with data analysis to tell you what's doodoo and what's passable.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> Defilers suck dick and if you aren't taking powerfists on squad leaders you're doing it wrong.


Thats what I was thinking.



D-A-C said:


> That is very, very good advice. I hate that people thing these are mandatory for every squad, even Initiative 5 Noise Marines.
> 
> The only other good one you missed is Plague Marines. Your striking at Initiative 3 anyway so you might as well put PF's on all your Champions.


Ofcourse not Int 5 NMs. A Doom Siren Champ with Power Weapon is a Marine Killer. A PF and now your roll with the NMs are confused. How About Zerkers? CSM? Maybe Termies? ALL these Sqauds (minus NMs) require a PF to deal with Popping Tanks, Walkers, and ID multi wound models. PW is NOT going to cut it.... that sounds like a pun... Unless your taking Raptors, Bikers, and Lords, but then your doing something wrong already.


The SAD fact is there is as many ways of outfitting CSM to win as there is for Necrons or SoB... not alot of choices.


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## telemicus (Apr 10, 2010)

@ Waffles and Warlock 
Well said!


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## BrainFreeze (Oct 9, 2008)

Don't have the book in front of me right now so please bear with me. Lets say I have the NB and a squad of warriors in CC with a squad of berserkers, would'nt the berserkers have to assign their attacks prior to the roll to either the NB or the warriors. Obivously the attacks can be split between the two prior to the roll but any hits rolled would assign wounds against the actual unit they attacked and not be assigned any way they choose after the actual attack.

Example...

Berserkers charge a unit of Warriors and NB, 3 of them attack the NB and the other 7 attack the warriors. After rolling to hit there are 15 hits on the 10 warriors and 3 on the NB. He/she would then roll wounds on the warriors using the 15 dice, and wounds on the NB using the 3 dice. Even if he rolls more then 10 wounds on the warriors those additional wounds would be assigned to the warriors and could not be assigned to the NB.

Am I right? Sorry but the way I read his last "tip" makes me think your suggesting it works another way.


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## OrdoMalleus (Apr 24, 2009)

I think he is actually saying that (using the example given above) as long as Zerkers kills more warriors than the NB kills bezekers, then the NB will be forced to take extra wounds due to being fearless and them all being involved in the same combat.

Could be a tactic to bear in mind, espeacially if your army isnt welding Force Weapon thunder hammers


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## msteward (Jan 5, 2011)

If i understand correctly. the purpose of this thread was to share CSM tactics that will make your opponent look at you and say "you bastard!"

A great bastard tactic that I use against IG, Tau, and Eldar (mostly IG) is the use of Raptors with a MoN and a melta-gun or 2. This works best against mech guard, which seems to be common-place with guard players these days, and it does require some patience. Two ways you can do it. 

A) Deepstrike, pop open a chimera, laugh in the face of the ensuing las-gun fire, the proceed to beat the tar out of them on your next turn. The dangers of this, obviously are mishapping and that you have to take a round of shooting so who knows what else is going to be shooting at you.

B) This is the one that requires more patience, and slightly lest bastardly, but its probably more efficient tacticly. Footslog them behind vehicles. This would work very well with zig-zagging rhinos. Move 12", pop chimeras, ahnialate guardsmen inside.

These also work against Tau and Eldar, but they're not as effective becasue their guns are stronger. and you usually have ot deep strike to catch their skimmers.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Ah suicide melta, best and sometime the most infuriating tactic, nothing like a 125pt unit disable a 200pt tanke then hiding behind it as the screw off into the shadows. I personaly take mine on naked terminators, but with the raptors you do keep the option open to destroy another tank if they servive do to 12' threat range.

In response your post I believe I will add a section on the finer use of kamakazi deep striking.



BrainFreeze said:


> Don't have the book in front of me right now so please bear with me. Lets say I have the NB and a squad of warriors in CC with a squad of berserkers, would'nt the berserkers have to assign their attacks prior to the roll to either the NB or the warriors. Obivously the attacks can be split between the two prior to the roll but any hits rolled would assign wounds against the actual unit they attacked and not be assigned any way they choose after the actual attack.
> 
> Example...
> 
> ...


OrdoMalleus had the correct interpretation, its all about targeting the weak stuff exclusivly to cause auto breaks or no retreat wounds on the hard stuff, often to the extent that you devote everything, but PF hits to the hard target. After all even if he does kill 3-4 models in return it won't matter compared to the 10+ wounds you inflict.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> Thats what I was thinking.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So in other words just like I first stated "some but not all squads are candidates fro PF's." 

To the matter of PF's
As for lord waffle waffles statement the math does indeed supports a PF in a squad for CC, but that is only do to the fact that it is impossible in such equations to show how that missing 200+ pts of army is impacting your force, and also assumes you will get into CC.

Mind you I take a mess of special weapons in any of my armies so maybe I am missing the necessity of PF, but I have always had a soft spot for 8 str8, ap1 ranged weapons over 2 PF toting marines. Mind you I also take two squads of berzerkers with PF in my army so I am never short CC support either.

The difference between you and me waffle on this matter is I look at a squad and say thats nice, but how does it fit into my army as a whole, while the absolutest statements you have made here show a logic of if X unit can't beat Y unit in a straight fight then X most suck, ignoring stuff like cost, and tactical usage.

As for waffles math statement, you have run the number right? If you did then you will see that with the exception of out lyers a regular marine squad will net only 0.833 extra wounds on basic ws4 infantry, and only 1.25 on the charge with a PF (Not all that impressive for 40pts of dedicated CC gear). Also as most MC's have a inv save this number drops down to less then 1 wound on average against these intended targets, and your chances of killing even a av12 walker are about just as bad. Keep in mind these are just averages, but I stick by the math in that a pf costing 40+pts a model should be reserved for your CC specialists as on regular marines these powerfully weapons will not be enough to save you if you get into a fight against something you couldn't have beaten anyways (with the exception of a incredibly lucky hit against a walker or a equally amazing 3 solid wounds on the charge).

It's not hard to see why these weapons are just a better idea on stuff like berzerkers for not only do they have a higher potential for damage with a extreme out lyer showing a possible 4 wounds on the charge, but they also average 1.65 wounds without the charge (Thats double the number of regular marines!).

I mean regular CSM are a good cheap inantry unit and all, but they should be used as your mobile fire bases against light infantry, and to take pot shot wil melta's at tanks, throwing them at MC's and dreadnoughts because you put a PF on a champ is increadible cost inefective for 15 pts models.(Espcially when they are not fearless, and may end up taking that 40pts peace of wargear with them when they are forced to take a LD at -4-5).

However I realize your personal experiance may differ from mine, as to may your local or tournament level meta game, so even if after this counter argument you still support a all squad PF mandate know that I still respect your feedback and opinion.



LordWaffles said:


> You will never go through a standard game with chaos thinking, "God. I wish I didn't bring powerfists".


Really ever take a 1500pts list with 5 squads with PF's?. I did back in 4th edd and let me tell you when I realized that I could do a lot more with my army with that missing 200pts my win rate went up 33% in smaller point games. So in short yes I have had games where I have said I wish I didn't bring powerfists.




LordWaffles said:


> The short answer is no, nothing in the book is going to chew through enough ablative wounds to get to my champions..


They don't need to when the unit will auto break if even one enemy is left.




LordWaffles said:


> Plus having every unit be a threat to everything in the known universe is smart for a mere 100 points..


I wouln't call a extra 1 wound against marines or MC's a threat, so much as a annouance, still usfull for making walkers and IC's hide though.



LordWaffles said:


> philosophy paper mixed with data analysis to tell you what's doodoo and what's passable.


No, but it would help. in fact I would recomment "the art of war" as a good read.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

I don't think anyone is advocating the use of PFs on vanilla marines but rather KB and PMs where their effectiveness is exponentially better.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> Ah suicide melta, best and sometime the most infuriating tactic, nothing like a 125pt unit disable a 200pt tanke then hiding behind it as the screw off into the shadows. I personaly take mine on naked terminators, but with the raptors you do keep the option open to destroy another tank if they servive do to 12' threat range.
> 
> In response your post I believe I will add a section on the finer use of kamakazi deep striking.


Lucius would be proud Naked Termies

Well I agree with the whole PF thing, with some minor exceptions.
Chosen should always have a PF in the unit, they can get in close rather fast and your only giving up the choice of one special weapon, same goes to PM, KB, and dare I say EC even. Now that being said unless your going to spam the crap out of your troops take the damn PF it is a useful oh shit handle to take. One way to counter balance the points issue is to just forgoe you extra special weapon and drop one marine from the squad. Yes OMG you won't have two melta weapons, but you can still have a plasma gun that can rapid fire two shots. The plasma gun can still punch through most armour out there and its great against infantry, so though it ain't a melta it at least helps to make up for the lack of and you now have your oh shit handle. 

The defiler issue well it all depends on who your opponent is some will agree and go with it and some will not. Plain and simple. A defiler is good unit but in larger games (im talkin 1000+ Pts.) you cannot have just one. to get an effectiveness out of them you must at least take two or three if you can allow it, also take the twin las with it, this will help add just a lil bit of long range support to the list. There are many cases where firing a BC is just a bad idea and I'm sorry I know us Chaos players love our reapers they just don't have to power a las can do. Another thing I wanted to point out is if your gonna play a 500pt battle take the defiler along. Most players are not gonna be expecting such craziness. They only expect a couple troops and maybe an oblit.

Another way to save points with CSM is take a bare bones lord, this will free up so many points. Too many times I've seen poeple arm there lord like he's going take on the entire imperium and then get angry when he falls to a guardsman that know how well to use a knife. If you are gonna field good ol' wild bill the craziest lord around, take the bare minimum you can with him, in other words take what you need for survibility. 

The fearless thing well, ive said too many times that fearless is a penalty and not a reward. Ive seen too many of my best daemons fall to stupid fearless saves( you can ask warlock how many time I bitch about that one). This is a good trick to have up your sleeve but don't expect people to wanna play with you when you pull stunts like that.IMO! 

Most of thes etactics are perfectly legal and are just you using the rules to your advantage and there really is nothing wrong with it. Its like playin an FPS online and spawn killing or camping, its not too sporty but it gets the job done. I personally hail people that expose these wild loopholes so now many of us will know how to deal with the tactics poeple don't think about. 

You can ask Warlock once again how odd I mess with my lists though they may not always work but they do at times give the guy a good run for his money.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

TheSpore said:


> Lucius would be proud Naked Termies
> 
> Well I agree with the whole PF thing, with some minor exceptions.
> Chosen should always have a PF in the unit, they can get in close rather fast and your only giving up the choice of one special weapon, same goes to PM, KB, and dare I say EC even. Now that being said unless your going to spam the crap out of your troops take the damn PF it is a useful oh shit handle to take. One way to counter balance the points issue is to just forgoe you extra special weapon and drop one marine from the squad. Yes OMG you won't have two melta weapons, but you can still have a plasma gun that can rapid fire two shots. The plasma gun can still punch through most armour out there and its great against infantry, so though it ain't a melta it at least helps to make up for the lack of and you now have your oh shit handle.
> ...


Thank you for such a thorough reply.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> Thank you for such a thorough reply.


your welcome, Your lil tactics are good and well in place. 

Ive come up with some weird ways to run CSM instead of the conventional melta and lash spam. It just gets old afterwhile and even worse gets boring. 

Once I get them up and runnin my next favorite oddity will be the Posessed spam. I will run 15 posessed. Should prove interesting to run.

When I spoke of the Chaos lord bit here is another many don't even consider.

If you take a mount of khorne or slaanesh you can create a monster in CC, but he has to be running into combat with something or he will be one big squishy targe(oh how I miss the Ld checks to shoot at HQs)

When I get done with the CSM I plan to run my favorite spams of raptors, posessed and defilers.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

TheSpore said:


> Another way to save points with CSM is take a bare bones lord, this will free up so many points. Too many times I've seen poeple arm there lord like he's going take on the entire imperium and then get angry when he falls to a guardsman that know how well to use a knife. If you are gonna field good ol' wild bill the craziest lord around, take the bare minimum you can with him, in other words take what you need for survibility.


The ONLY time I would take a Lord is to List Tailore. As in You play Nids. I play with my MoS, DW wielding Lord. ID all around. Mind you never got the chance to do it yet. Other than that I NEVER had a good expirience with the Lord.



TheSpore said:


> The fearless thing well, ive said too many times that fearless is a penalty and not a reward. Ive seen too many of my best daemons fall to stupid fearless saves( you can ask warlock how many time I bitch about that one). This is a good trick to have up your sleeve but don't expect people to wanna play with you when you pull stunts like that.IMO!


LOL good times, good times. Fearless is OK on 2+/3+ units. Anything else gets massacred.



TheSpore said:


> Most of thes etactics are perfectly legal and are just you using the rules to your advantage and there really is nothing wrong with it. Its like playin an FPS online and spawn killing or camping, its not too sporty but it gets the job done. I personally hail people that expose these wild loopholes so now many of us will know how to deal with the tactics poeple don't think about.


Here, here to the Power Gaming! Thats if your into winning.:laugh:



TheSpore said:


> You can ask Warlock once again how odd I mess with my lists though they may not always work but they do at times give the guy a good run for his money.


Or fail Miserably. Ethier way my Cookie Cut List still lose to the Dice Rolls and better Generalship. I cant Belive you win with Daemons, thier design by GW to lose in 40k and win in Fatasy.



LukeValantine said:


> Thank you for such a thorough reply.


He likes to sugar coat things. Me and Waffles are plain rude. 

_"Who make the world taste so good? The Spore man can...."_



TheSpore said:


> Ive come up with some weird ways to run CSM instead of the conventional melta and lash spam. It just gets old afterwhile and even worse gets boring.


Sigh, yes, yes it does... even then it sometimes fails. 



TheSpore said:


> Once I get them up and runnin my next favorite oddity will be the Posessed spam. I will run 15 posessed. Should prove interesting to run.


Oooh I love to see that.



TheSpore said:


> When I spoke of the Chaos lord bit here is another many don't even consider.
> 
> If you take a mount of khorne or slaanesh you can create a monster in CC, but he has to be running into combat with something or he will be one big squishy targe(oh how I miss the Ld checks to shoot at HQs)


I miss having KoS and Blood Letters in my army....

I cant see any reason not taking all the punch of a DP compared to a Lord or Sorc. Unless your taking a 125 pt Lash Sorc that can be put into a Sqaud and Lash from the Hatch of the Rhino. 

However thats another argument of another kind.



TheSpore said:


> When I get done with the CSM I plan to run my favorite spams of raptors, posessed and defilers.


Ill play that with TSs, Sorcerors, and Spawn!!! Mass Mutauion, Mass Mutation, MASS MUTATION!!!! :laugh: Heck Ill Play a whole Nurgle Bike army. See where that takes us.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

daemons arnt designed to lose, they are a solid army that rock the house many times over. the key is you have utilyze the units of all the gods. You limit yourself way too much when you try to use a mono god list. 

Also its point allocation as well if you wanna run daemons effectivly you have to think of odd ways to use them they are an unconventional army for the complex poeple out there.

Believe me its gonna be crazy to see that many posessed on the board followed by 3 defilers and raptors. Sure its gonna be a huge pt list but just the look on my opponent's face is always priceless.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Daemons suck cause you look at a all reserved DS BA army and look at your Daemons and Say fuck. BAs have, what, a reroll I belive for Reserves and they Scatter 1d6 inches. Add to the fact they can cary Meltas for Anti Tank, 3+ Saves, , have FNP/FC (thanks Priest), Pscychic Hoods, 12" flying Dreads in Drop Pods, no WEAKNESS to GKs, and have a 1/6 chance of having Rage makes them what Daemons should have been. Its pathetic. PATHETIC.

Daemons have GD and DPs. Thats cool.....


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Graphics card died in my pc won't be able to post here for a while.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Daemons suck cause you look at a all reserved DS BA army and look at your Daemons and Say fuck. BAs have, what, a reroll I belive for Reserves and they Scatter 1d6 inches. Add to the fact they can cary Meltas for Anti Tank, 3+ Saves, , have FNP/FC (thanks Priest), Pscychic Hoods, 12" flying Dreads in Drop Pods, no WEAKNESS to GKs, and have a 1/6 chance of having Rage makes them what Daemons should have been. Its pathetic. PATHETIC.
> 
> Daemons have GD and DPs. Thats cool.....


The issue here is just the codex creep thats all. The BA have a much newer dex and I sure if the daemons had a new dex they would prolly get something quite similar


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Or the CSMs can crusade and enslaveds the buggers agan!


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> So in other words just like I first stated "some but not all squads are candidates fro PF's."
> 
> To the matter of PF's
> As for lord waffles statement the math does indeed supports a PF in a squad for CC, but that is only do to the fact that it is impossible in such equations to show how that missing 200+ pts of army is impacting your force, and also assumes you will get into CC.


I have a rhino and plague marines. If I want to get to cc I will. Not that it's usually opportune, but throwing six more pf swings is much more manly than limpwristing a slap in the face at ws4 s4


LukeValantine said:


> Mind you I take a mess of special weapons in any of my armies so maybe I am missing the necessity of PF, but I have always had a soft spot for 8 str8, ap1 ranged weapons over 2 PF toting marines. Mind you I also take two squads of berzerkers with PF in my army so I am never short CC support either.


Oh so I said to take them and ignore special weapons? Man that sounds like stupid advice...Oh no, holdon that was a strawman argument you proposed at me. It'd be giving up a termiecide squad, since you yourself already said you take them on zerks, so the true cost is somewhere inbetween 80-120 points depending on how many dudes you bring. Both of these are acceptable taxes on the squads they are assigned for the value you get.


LukeValantine said:


> The difference between you and me waffle on this matter is I look at a squad and say thats nice, but how does it fit into my army as a whole, while the absolutest statements you have made here show a logic of if X unit can't beat Y unit in a straight fight then X most suck, ignoring stuff like cost, and tactical usage.


Tactics don't exist in 40k beyond simple things like deployment, target priority, and synergy when building the list(Which for us is lash and obliterators, or lash and zerkers). So go-go-gadget-get over yourself when you say you're a superior tactician. I've already weighed the value of a powerfist tactically forcing the enemy to keep his tanks, walkers, mcs, and ICs away, why haven't you? If all I need is fourty points to make sure a game-breaking charge from a deep striking dreadnought into a squad of plague marines doesn't happen, I'll pay it every game. The tactical value of not losing if the enemy outwits you in some clever fashion is more valuable than 40pts.


LukeValantine said:


> MATHMATHMATHMATH


Those extra wounds mean the difference between winning and losing combat. End of statement.


LukeValantine said:


> Also as most MC's have a inv save this number drops down to less then 1 wound on average against these intended targets, and your chances of killing even a av12 walker are about just as bad. Keep in mind these are just averages, but I stick by the math in that a pf costing 40+pts a model should be reserved for your CC specialists as on regular marines these powerfully weapons will not be enough to save you if you get into a fight against something you couldn't have beaten anyways (with the exception of a incredibly lucky hit against a walker or a equally amazing 3 solid wounds on the charge).


An incredibly lucky hit? If you charge a dreadnought chances are more often than not you'll knock it around, and if all you do is swat an arm off, he doesn't ignore your FnP or auto smush someone(Means a net gain of the squad now that they get saves and FnP). If you glance it(Shake/stunned) than you've removed an attack and potentially saved a fellow plague marine(30points average, including special weapons), buying another turn where you could bring in reinforcements. If you destroy it, the powerfist paid for itself three times over.
Btw most mcs in the game don't have invul saves. Let's saaaay...everything in the tyranid codex? Eldar wraithlord?
Plus it makes the squad capable of instant-deathing anything t4, which means space marine hq choices(Nearly all of them) avoid you, or that fist just paid for itself four times over, nob bikers are scared(Even smash one and it's paid for itself twice), and eldrad has a chance to implode.
Not bad for a 40pts upgrade of cc. And let's say you spent that on both squads of plague marines? Even if you kill one of the highlighted targets, that one powerfist swing paid for both.


LukeValantine said:


> I mean regular CSM are a good cheap inantry unit and all, but they should be used as your mobile fire bases against light infantry, and to take pot shot wil melta's at tanks, throwing them at MC's and dreadnoughts because you put a PF on a champ is increadible cost inefective for 15 pts models.(Espcially when they are not fearless, and may end up taking that 40pts peace of wargear with them when they are forced to take a LD at -4-5).


When did I ever say to bring these terrible things? KEEP ALL VANILLA CSM IN THE BOX. There. Let me bring this blanket statement to snuff anymore of me not being specific enough. Good lord. Why the fuck would you put gear on bad? Why would you bring bad. You maka me so sahd.


LukeValantine said:


> However I realize your personal experiance may differ from mine, as to may your local or tournament level meta game, so even if after this counter argument you still support a all squad PF mandate know that I still respect your feedback and opinion.


I offer my advice to maybe forge a better overall community of chaos players, I hope this isn't coming off as attacking. I always support plague marines with 40pt fists as we aren't going to beat dedicated shooting troop squads in the meta(Vet guards), and we can't beat grey knights in combat, so why don't we at least try to beat them in terms of variability and being a better tool? Vet guards are just fuckboned when a dread or mc hits them, why should we pay more, for less people, and not have another answer for that cost in our box?


LukeValantine said:


> Really ever take a 1500pts list with 5 squads with PF's?. I did back in 4th edd and let me tell you when I realized that I could do a lot more with my army with that missing 200pts my win rate went up 33% in smaller point games. So in short yes I have had games where I have said I wish I didn't bring powerfists.


That's too many troops. It's 1 per 500 points. I dunno how you get anything done with all those troops, Luke.


LukeValantine said:


> They don't need to when the unit will auto break if even one enemy is left.


Nothing in our codex breaks unless it's termiecide, and if you dealt enough wounds to break them, they're all dead anyway.


LukeValantine said:


> No, but it would help. in fact I would recomment "the art of war" as a good read.


Why would I read a book from a dead guy? I'm already winning "The art of war" by being alive when he's not.
Every single person is a better tactician than sun tzu was simply by breathing and having access to the internet.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Got a new graphic card. Seems to work so far.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> Got a new graphic card. Seems to work so far.


Welcome back.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

Waffles, in the Chaos codex does the 1 troop per 500 points really hold up?

Admittedly I don't play games below 1700 points often (ever if I can help it) but isn't the answer to the chaos list question always x2 lash princes, x2 PM squads, x2 zerker squads and as many oblits as you can fit?


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## ItsPug (Apr 5, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> -Advanced tip: make sure to fire your melta's one by one since if the first 3 hit it will be wise to aviod shooting the 4th as almost any tank will die from 3 double penning ap 1 guns, and the left over melta can be used to take a crack shot at another tank.


Yeah, thats actually cheating. on pg 16 of the BRB it says that all models must declare what they are firing before checking range, and then all are resolved at the same time.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Missed that one I will correct the over sight.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> Missed that one I will correct the over sight.


Yeah that one might make some nerd rage in the real world 

Anyway, to me there really is no worng way to field your army its more on the how you utilyze what you got.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

clever handle said:


> Waffles, in the Chaos codex does the 1 troop per 500 points really hold up?
> 
> Admittedly I don't play games below 1700 points often (ever if I can help it) but isn't the answer to the chaos list question always x2 lash princes, x2 PM squads, x2 zerker squads and as many oblits as you can fit?


Somehow I knew that would get targeted for not being totally thought out. And that's my fault.

I consider four full squads of marines at fifteen hundred points is a lot, but not unreasonable, but four at a thousand is a nightmare. I don't play low-point games because the game unfortunately breaks down the lower the points.

1500 I think two plague marines, one zerker squad, two princes and blitz is pretty damn nifty. But it's been a long while since I point-costed a list.


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## Mindlessness (Dec 22, 2009)

I just have one quick question. I spent the money on a scorpian defiler. I had all intentions of making look as bad ass as possible for a tzeench army. Would that be modeling for wrong purposes? No intention behind it, and it just happens to have the battle cannon on the tail..


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

..In a tournament game it wouldn't fly as the model is actually for a brass scorpion, but in a freindly game I can imagine your enemy letting you.


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## Mindlessness (Dec 22, 2009)

Stupid Apocylipse crap.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Isn't the brass scorpion huge?


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

No the forge world one is fairly big, but the standard brass scorpion conversion uses the defiler as a base.


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