# Dark Angels in 7th



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Sit down, young neophyte, and let me tell you the next tale in our Chapter's history...

Or, you could skip down to read the actual content, but don't be so boring.

Here we stand, the broken sons of the First Legion. Bloodied by recent releases, lamed by those with lower points costs for the same wargear as we, and fading into the depths of history. Our Codex came out, and there was rejoicing, as we had 14 point Tactical Marines, a set of fancy Sacred Standards, and that most hallowed archeotech the 'bullshit projector' to line up Land Raider Crusaders with 24 shots each and a 4+ Invulnerable save. Bringing a crapton of Ravenwing Bikes with automatic Hit and Run or quadruple the firepower was the cause of many a bulge in a Company Master's codpiece. Toys such as the Darkshroud and Deathwing Knights were available to surprise unsuspecting enemies who thought they knew everything the Space Marines could throw at them. Plasma Cannons on Terminators made them even more awesome, despite not being particularly efficient. Librarians could bring Divination, the greatest discipline of 6th, and handed out Fearless like candy.

But the glory days were not to last; Codex: Space Marines arrived, and with it Khan and his white Bikes to kill our black Bikes. They too could Scout, and Hit and Run, but they were also significantly cheaper and did bring Grav Weapons that were most gravy for the Space Marines. Our 14pt Tacticals were matched with more 14pt Tacticals, but with Grim Resolve replaced with actual useful, non-detrimental rules in the form of Chapter Tactics. Company Masters were overshadowed to an embarrassing degree by Captains and Chapter Masters. Sternguard Veterans entered as a strict upgrade from Company Veterans. The First Legion took the blow stoically, for being inferior to Codex: Space Marines was one of the most ancient traditions of the Chapter. Other armies came and went, with Dark Angels retreating from gaming tables, appearing only rarely as a mass of black Bikers firing a gazillion Bolter rounds into their foes before disappearing without a trace.

Finally, Grey Knights arrived. While many are disappointed with their new Codex, it having removed much of the flavour and the previous awesomeness of their 5th ed. incarnation, it contains brothers in Tactical Dreadnought Armour appearing on turn one, much like the Deathwing. There are a few differences. Grey Knights are a full 33% cheaper at the expense of losing their Power Fists for Nemesis Force Swords. They have Battle Focus on the turn they arrive. They get Psycannons, Incinerators and Psilencers instead of Heavy Flamers, Assault Cannons, Plasma Cannons or Cyclone Missile Launchers, and they have various helpful aids to their ends - namely things other than Terminators being in your face on turn one, such as the new and excellent Dreadknight.

So, Dark Angels have taken big hits from both Space Marines and Grey Knights, who do Bikes and Terminators better respectively.

So, after all that nonsense...

What do you do with Dark Angels in 7th? Presumably, one would have to work around the Sacred Standards and using Rad Grenade Launchers or any other tricks revolving around Deathwing or Ravenwing Knights so you don't just become 'Space Marines but worse' or 'Grey Knights but worse'.

Any thoughts?


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Personally I have always liked the standard of devastation I eman whevern I have played it it has just created a bubble that I cannot walk infantry near if I want to survive meaning I have to send vehicles in alone which leaves them very vulnerable to all the AT firepower you have, that said it is quite a static arm which leads to problems in tactical objective missions. I haven't seen how well the standard works with bikes obviously with them being relentless it helps them a lot but you can't cram as many bolters in.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

falcoso said:


> Personally I have always liked the standard of devastation I eman whevern I have played it it has just created a bubble that I cannot walk infantry near if I want to survive meaning I have to send vehicles in alone which leaves them very vulnerable to all the AT firepower you have, that said it is quite a static arm which leads to problems in tactical objective missions. I haven't seen how well the standard works with bikes obviously with them being relentless it helps them a lot but you can't cram as many bolters in.


Standard of Devastation is difficult as it leaves you with no way to beat certain things - you kill any infantry that walk into 24", yeah, but say you fight Chaos (specifically Noise Marines... grrrr...). They sit back and shoot you with Blastmasters, and it only takes 250pts of Noise Marines to take apart 1500pts of Standard of Devastation bunker.

Bears further investigation though, it could have some kind of potential on non-Bike units.


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## fatmantis (Jun 26, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Standard of Devastation is difficult as it leaves you with no way to beat certain things - you kill any infantry that walk into 24", yeah, but say you fight Chaos (specifically Noise Marines... grrrr...). They sit back and shoot you with Blastmasters, and it only takes 250pts of Noise Marines to take apart 1500pts of Standard of Devastation bunker.
> 
> Bears further investigation though, it could have some kind of potential on non-Bike units.


this is a Little narrow minded..yes a 3+ is still going to go down..no mater what is shooting at you..yes white scars do it better...but if you build you list right the raven wing can be devastating.

i am running a full Raven wing list and i find it to be quite powerful with a few additions of course..
first..the jink rule does hurt allite bit now..but not too much.
as for having to deal with anti tank well with AB and typhoons you should have that pretty well covered
also the black nights and command squads outflanking can deal with just about anything.

as for air support the storming is really great it just adds so much punch for the bikers..so in theory you realy only need to take one round or 2 round of being shot at before you simply take things apart.

at 2k i run 2 command squads with apothecary's and i find they do realy realy well..
the trick is knowing when to advance when to fall back and when to out flank..that im still working on..

in the last game i played a 2k ork army scouted forward and destroyed 6 trucks on the first turn..then when he shot back and assualted he killed i think 6 bikes total..
then turn 2 the planes cam in and just went to town.

yes darkangels are a pretty lack luster codex but they area still competitive. 
as comparing GK to DW..well if you want magic go GK becuase other than that a 2+ is a 2+(simplification i know but you get the point)

The dark angels have no easy answers thats what make it truely fun.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

And are there any viable builds outside of the Ravenwing?

Also, a little off-topic, but what the hell kind of Ork army runs SIX Trukks?


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## fatmantis (Jun 26, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> And are there any viable builds outside of the Ravenwing?
> yes i belive with planning and using detachment there is..i still think that BW are viable im working on that at the moment. AS for theGreen Wing they are after all still Marines..i see no difference between how you can run a Marine list from DA to C:SM..yes the C:SM have better toys but the standards we have are pretty good. if its tournament standard your looking for well ive got now answers there..but if you combine GW DW and RW i belive you can really build something great..just need to figure out the combo supports
> Also, a little off-topic, but what the hell kind of Ork army runs SIX Trukks?
> first day with the new codex so he was trying something different unfortunately he had never faced a full bike list and was unaware of the speed and damage they are capable of..so all the trukks we out front and went bang!


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

fatmantis said:


> AS for theGreen Wing they are after all still Marines..i see no difference between how you can run a Marine list from DA to C:SM..yes the C:SM have better toys but the standards we have are pretty good.


Chapter Tactics, Thunderfires, Centurions, Captains/Chapter Masters, Honour Guard, Sternguard, good Bikers, Flyers and Grav weapons are pretty significant differences.

DA get the Standard of Devastation, the Standard of Fortitude, and the Ravenwing Company Standard. Hooray, I guess?

I'll probably try doing things with the Darkshroud, Deathwing Knights, and Ravenwing Knights.

Apologies if it seems like I'm just blindly refuting all the points given, but I really do think Dark Angels have an exceedingly narrow niche to use their unique units.


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## fatmantis (Jun 26, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Chapter Tactics, Thunderfires, Centurions, Captains/Chapter Masters, Honour Guard, Sternguard, good Bikers, Flyers and Grav weapons are pretty significant differences.
> so that make them better? or just makes for a lazy player as there easy point and click options??
> DA get the Standard of Devastation, the Standard of Fortitude, and the Ravenwing Company Standard. Hooray, I guess?
> and these are bad?
> ...


the answers are there..factor into your lists..troop losses..throw away units..distractions etc..and you will start seeing the potential.
no im now expert but this is just how i play...no math hammer..just the unexpected


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

fatmantis said:


> so that make them better? or just makes for a lazy player as there easy point and click options??


Well they are a bunch of options that are flat-out better than Dark Angel equivalents (if there even are equivalents), while the reverse is true for... I dunno. I guess the two types of Knight are fairly unique, but would I go so far as to say Black Knights are better than Bike Command Squads? Probably not.



fatmantis said:


> and these are bad?


They're not _bad_, but they're not particularly brilliant, and two of them _only_ apply to Ravenwing unless you're doing something silly with Land Raider Crusaders and a Power Field Generator.



fatmantis said:


> no need to apologise..i get your point and understand what your saying..at my store i have these conversations with my guys almost every day, but what i teach them is a: dont compare..you're comparing apples and oranges..if your wanting C:sm toys the allie or play C:SM b: delve in to the codex find the combos..find the magic the YOU as a player can bring..people rely to much on point and click armies..my boys are now whooping the asses of the WAAC players simply cause they are bringin things that are unexpected.


Oh, make no mistake, I can kick the shit out of Serpent Spam and such. I struggle against the friendly lists in my meta, not the 'tournament' lists. Deathwing can work really well, but they're stupidly dice-dependant (I once beat Serpent Spam because I tanked 27 2+ saves on one of the squads and that was pretty much all the damage I had to take until I killed his tanks, but just yesterday I drew instead of won a game because sixteen Boltguns killed 5 T5 Deathwing Knights and plinked a wound off the Interrogator Chaplain). I dunno.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> I once beat Serpent Spam because I tanked 27 2+ saves on one of the squads and that was pretty much all the damage I had to take until I killed his tanks, but just yesterday I drew instead of won a game because sixteen Boltguns killed 5 T5 Deathwing Knights and plinked a wound off the Interrogator Chaplain


That's some shit! The dice gods are fickle...

I love me some Deathwing, ran them with my Guard the other day and it was one of the most fun lists I have ever put to table. The other two aspects, instead of Green Wing I play Imperial Fists and instead of Ravenwing I play White Scars, so...maybe I should just stay out of this.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

ntaw said:


> That's some shit! The dice gods are fickle...
> 
> I love me some Deathwing, ran them with my Guard the other day and it was one of the most fun lists I have ever put to table. The other two aspects, instead of Green Wing I play Imperial Fists and instead of Ravenwing I play White Scars, so...maybe I should just stay out of this.


Yeah, the shooty Deathwing are pretty mediocre but the Hammernators are fairly nice as a very aggressive threat (as long as you bring a bunch!) and Knights are solid gold no matter what people tell you. I play against Orks, Chaos Space Marines and Necrons regularly and the DWK are regularly my all-stars.

As for using Greenwing as Codex Space Marines, yeah, I've been guilty of that before  it's just awkward as Belial is a. a pile of crap and b. doesn't work in an Allied Detachment, so I'm still getting the balance right.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> Belial is a. a pile of crap and b. doesn't work in an Allied Detachment, so I'm still getting the balance right.


The only time I play Belial is if I'm running DWK (my home-made ones will be replaced soon!!), otherwise I use Azrael with a 30 man Guard blob. I think you know the load-out  With unlimited detachments available it's pretty easy to make whatever you want and keep it Battle Forged, cuz god DAMN Objective Secured matters.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

ntaw said:


> The only time I play Belial is if I'm running DWK (my home-made ones will be replaced soon!!), otherwise I use Azrael with a 30 man Guard blob. I think you know the load-out  With unlimited detachments available it's pretty easy to make whatever you want and keep it Battle Forged, cuz god DAMN Objective Secured matters.


Really? I've found that with Deathwing, Objective Secured is almost totally irrelevant as they seldom get tarpitted by Troops. They either murderate whatever they're in combat with, or they get mulched.

Objective Secured is really neat to have on Rhinos and Razorbacks, but on anything on foot I think it's highly overrated (it's one of the problems with 7th - while I like the 'everything scores but Troops are still the way to do it if NEED it done', I don't like how it rewarded Eldar Jetbikes and their ilk by making them even better than the job they were already good at. Letting Eldar do the Falcon Punch, albeit with Wave Serpents, isn't a step forwards either).


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> Objective Secured is really neat to have on Rhinos and Razorbacks


It's really lame to have an objective stolen from a Deathwing squad by a 35-55 point transport..almost embarrassing. I have been playing a three army list of BA, DW, IG (with a side of Inquisition) and having a blast so far; the unlimited detachment thing is awesome and easily abused if you're into your armies enough I think.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I'd have to wonder why you have Deathwing within 12" of an OS transport on a game-deciding objective. On the other hand, Deathwing unlocking OS Venerable Land Raiders is all kinds of nice - I think that Dark Angels can be the premier Land Raider army, having them with 4+ Invulns, stupid numbers of bolter shots and Objective Secured. I might have to have a play with that...

Yeah, I've had a look at your DA/=I=/IG list and I really like the look of it :victory:


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> I'd have to wonder why you have Deathwing within 12" of an OS transport on a game-deciding objective.


They were what was around, and had just smashed an OS Troops selection off said objective when two OS Rhinos drove in and fucked me up. I have to learn to spread my units _around_ Objectives to play the "I'm 3" away and you can't be within 1" of me" game.



MidnightSun said:


> On the other hand, Deathwing unlocking OS Venerable Land Raiders is all kinds of nice - I think that Dark Angels can be the premier Land Raider army, having them with 4+ Invulns, stupid numbers of bolter shots and Objective Secured.


I'm curious to see how that will look after a new BA dex comes out. Right now we can only take LR's as DT's. Pretty sure even Scout squads can take LR variants :laugh:

Is it the Conversion Field that grants the 4++ while inside a transport? I feel like there was a FAQ for that, but in the current DA FAQ there's only Errata and Amendments.



MidnightSun said:


> Yeah, I've had a look at your DA/=I=/IG list and I really like the look of it


Thanks dude! I tossed up some thoughts on the list after running it against CSM. Can't believe how hobbled in CC my blob was when it came to a Helbrute charging them. God damn.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

ntaw said:


> They were what was around, and had just smashed an OS Troops selection off said objective when two OS Rhinos drove in and fucked me up. I have to learn to spread my units _around_ Objectives to play the "I'm 3" away and you can't be within 1" of me" game.


Wouldn't have helped you - Tank Shock is an ass. But killling Rhinos is really pretty easy, and I try and get rid of them as quickly as possible anyway to deny my enemy mobility (and so I can shoot Plasma Cannons at his tasty MEQ passengers - that is, if my Devastators find a place they can hide out of Line of Sight from Noise Marines!).



ntaw said:


> Is it the Conversion Field that grants the 4++ while inside a transport? I feel like there was a FAQ for that, but in the current DA FAQ there's only Errata and Amendments.


Nah, the FAQ is relevant because it no longer contains the passage that stopped the Power Field Generator working like any other aura effect - you put a Power Field Generator and the Standard of Devastation in the middle LRC and it gives a 3" bubble of 4++ and a 6" bubble of Salvo Boltguns. Obvious thing to do there is to put another LRC on either side, so you get three Crusaders shooting 24 TL Bolter shots each plus their other guns and they all have Objective Secured and 4+ Invulns.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> I'd have to wonder why you have Deathwing within 12" of an OS transport on a game-deciding objective. On the other hand, Deathwing unlocking OS Venerable Land Raiders is all kinds of nice - I think that Dark Angels can be the premier Land Raider army, having them with 4+ Invulns, stupid numbers of bolter shots and Objective Secured. I might have to have a play with that...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I've had a look at your DA/=I=/IG list and I really like the look of it :victory:



It's exactly that. I run mostly ravenwing. A venerable land raider with a 4++ and the standard of devastation inside surrounded by bikes is terrifying and a big enough threat that the enemy has to devote absurd firepower to get rid of it. Meanwhile, the command and black knights (plus a shroud) rip up a flank. I've had great success with the army. 

As far as greenwing and deathwing are concerned, I can't get them working as well. Greenwing you can run 2 or 3 land raiders benefitting from pfg and sod and that's a massive asspain. Deathwing I play in friendlier games because going 2nd and deathwing assaulting everything at once is really fun and messes with your opponents head. 

Either way, my main army is csm so having such mobility and deployment options is a huge improvement in my eyes, despite the codex being branded generally as garbage. The locals hate it, however.


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## Optimus (Dec 26, 2014)

MidnightSun said:


> And are there any viable builds outside of the Ravenwing?
> 
> Also, a little off-topic, but what the hell kind of Ork army runs SIX Trukks?


6 Units of 12 Boys, each with a trukk as dedicated transport. They are a horde army after all!


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