# Tomb Kings....how good are they really?



## DivineArchitect

Hey all while checking my email i came across a newsletter from GW, aparently they've re realising Tomb kings ( or so i gather ), and with models like these

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440004a&rootCatGameStyle=wh

im not sure i'll able to resist...

its gonna be a while untill i can buy them as my DKOK army just set me back more then a pretty penny, but can anyone tell me whats they're like to field as i have no real knowlege of warhammer or how its played.

cheers!


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## Masked Jackal

Noone quite knows yet how they'll play under the new rules, but they probably will be somewhat similar to how they were before, just better. That is, a good amount of lesser troops, which can be easily replaced by magic, supported by good characters and some excellent support troops that can appear wherever they want, or hit quite hard. They're generally pretty versatile, with all the different core options, we will just have to see how they're reworked for the new book.


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## DivineArchitect

Masked Jackal said:


> , which can be easily replaced by magic, supported by good characters and some excellent support troops that can appear wherever they want, quote]
> 
> Nice one dude im assuming this is like the deepstrike rule?


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## Masked Jackal

DivineArchitect said:


> Nice one dude im assuming this is like the deepstrike rule?


No, actually, these units can just come up on the table (like reserves) from wherever they want. Some of them can charge, some can't, can't quite recall which, but it's an excellent ability for all of them.


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## Azkaellon

There Vampire Counts with ranged units and Support magic instead of Zombies and Offensive magic.


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## Masked Jackal

Witch King of Angmar said:


> There Vampire Counts with ranged units and Support magic instead of Zombies and Offensive magic.


Not at all helpful to someone who isn't familiar with the other races of Fantasy.


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## blackspine

and apparently they do better with monsters than the beastmen aka: monsters do.

Just from what I've read, I'm willing to bet a unit of painted gors with shields their new monsters will be amazing.

What is this 'reserve' rule you speak of? That sounds better than our 'ambush' rule....


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## Masked Jackal

blackspine said:


> What is this 'reserve' rule you speak of? That sounds better than our 'ambush' rule....


Several Tomb Kings units, including some of the new units that were announced, can come up anywhere on the table, with a dice roll determining which turn.


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## blackspine

Masked Jackal said:


> Several Tomb Kings units, including some of the new units that were announced, can come up anywhere on the table, with a dice roll determining which turn.


huh.

from this little bit of info, that sounds way better than our 'ambush' rule.
Not going to jump the gun, since all the info is out.
However, the BRB ambush is better than our ambush...so if it is true, it's not surprising.

man. 
kinda bummed.


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## Vaz

4pt Infantry (5pt with Spears) and Unbreakable.
Tomb Guard with the possibility for WS6 S5 Killing Blow.
Tomb Kings riding a War Sphinx

@ Blackspine - don't worry mate, at the way GW are going with their monster development, you'll have a Mount Style Creature yet - we've had 3 Army Books like that - Lizzies (grand total of 3 Variants), GObbo's (2 Variants) and now the Tomb Kings (2 Variants).

Add in the other big style monsters, and you've got Skaven (HPA, Bell, and Furnace), etc.


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## Azkaellon

Damn now vampire counts are lacking the the Cool mount model! Come on Gw give us something that rivals the sphinx in bad ass! (Like a Special edition nagash release with a new model\Rules?)


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## Masked Jackal

Witch King of Angmar said:


> Damn now vampire counts are lacking the the Cool mount model! Come on Gw give us something that rivals the sphinx in bad ass! (Like a Special edition nagash release with a new modelRules?)


Completely off-topic, but Vampire Counts do need a new army book. The current one has shit internal balance, and is one of the weaker army books out there right now. Not as badly needed as Ogre Kingdoms and Wood Elves, but they are in need.


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## Vaz

*Looks at Grave Guard/Crypt Ghouls with Timewarp and Speed of Light... and Bloodrinker Vampire Lord + Bloodknights*

What?

But yeah, it's fairly monobuild, and it is needed. It seems as if the power of 7th Vampires is now changed so that they're weaker than they once were. Makes me wonder if Mat Ward saw all the rumours for what made Vampires strong (Varghulf Flank Rapage, OTT Summoning, Danse Macabre charges) and then set out to nerf them, while making everything else about the list that was weak into base benefits (Hordes), of which they're too shit in base stats to be capable of doing anything.


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## stevenhassell

well they have magic cards now i wounder if they are doing away with incantations and having a more normal magic stye phase... cant wait to get mine in the mail!!


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## experiment 626

I'm quite happy the TK's are finally getting some much needed love - and from a games designer that actually plays the army too!

off-topic: VC's are compete and utter shit unless they play to a set-in-stone specific build. The new pts values TK's are getting really shows just how terribad alot of the VC core, (ie; everything beyond ghouls), really are!
But, I don't really think there's anyone in the studio who's a huge VC nut, thus I expect VC's to get the shaft this edition and become the truely 'rotting dead'...

Still, I don't care much, since my Lahmian vamps are now simply going to beomce my new 'Tomb Lahmians' and will thus remain playable!
(also proving that girls rule over boys!)

Cheers!


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## DivineArchitect

hmm tasty, i shall consider what iv heard and maybe dabble in the near future.
cheers for info masked jackel !


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## Barnster

Hopefully they will look at vampire counts soon as the new ed killed them as far as competative play is concerned,

If tomb kings have got the massive point break so should VCs, and finally get the undead monsters we have heard about, like undead griffons wyverns, undead crossbows etc etc

The new tomb king stuff does look cool though, even if abit ott, like the snakemen

The new edition books are generally screaming epic though


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## Vaz

The new snake knights remind me of Naga's from Asia. I'm more likely to combine the bottom with the top than have one riding the other.


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## Azkaellon

Well on the upside the Tomb Sphinx just made me crap my pants when i read it was T8....Looks like 100 zombies swarming it might be the only way to down the thing! (Prey for 6's!!!) also anyone get a look at the army book yet?


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## Masked Jackal

Witch King of Angmar said:


> Well on the upside the Tomb Sphinx just made me crap my pants when i read it was T8....Looks like 100 zombies swarming it might be the only way to down the thing! (Prey for 6's!!!) also anyone get a look at the army book yet?


Depending on army and lore choice, there's plenty of other options too. I-Killers should shit all over it, and poisoned attacks should work well too.


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## Azkaellon

Masked Jackal said:


> Depending on army and lore choice, there's plenty of other options too. I-Killers should shit all over it, and poisoned attacks should work well too.


*looks at his vampire army, then his skaven army* Aw Fuck. Anyone know what High Queen Khalida does in the new book? She is one model i have always wanted to paint.


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## experiment 626

Witch King of Angmar said:


> Well on the upside the Tomb Sphinx just made me crap my pants when i read it was T8....Looks like 100 zombies swarming it might be the only way to down the thing! (Prey for 6's!!!) also anyone get a look at the army book yet?


A ghoul horde should knock the shit out of it - much more so than the useless zombies ever would!

The preview copy books should be hitting the stores friday at the earliest since that's when the black boxes arrive.
Hopefully by the weekend we'll start to hear-tell of the important things;
a) New magic lore & it's specifics
b) Magic item selection
c) New 'Nehekaran Undead' rules
d) Buffs for the important stuff like the BSB & how to deal with step-up + unstable.

If there's alot of big buffs, especially towards helping cope with how insanely bad undead core is right now, I would hope that GW puts plans in for a VC re-write within a year's time or so...
Fixing up the TK's to bring them in line with 8th & then ignoring the poor, suffering VC's will basically be taken as a giant F-you by pretty much every single VC player...

Cheers!


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## Azkaellon

experiment 626 said:


> A ghoul horde should knock the shit out of it - much more so than the useless zombies ever would!
> 
> The preview copy books should be hitting the stores friday at the earliest since that's when the black boxes arrive.
> Hopefully by the weekend we'll start to hear-tell of the important things;
> a) New magic lore & it's specifics
> b) Magic item selection
> c) New 'Nehekaran Undead' rules
> d) Buffs for the important stuff like the BSB & how to deal with step-up + unstable.
> 
> If there's alot of big buffs, especially towards helping cope with how insanely bad undead core is right now, I would hope that GW puts plans in for a VC re-write within a year's time or so...
> Fixing up the TK's to bring them in line with 8th & then ignoring the poor, suffering VC's will basically be taken as a giant F-you by pretty much every single VC player...
> 
> Cheers!


Well all the vampires need to counter the new Tomb Kings is the following

-Let all the core units "COUNT" towards your 25%
-A New Monster of some sort (Werewolf's?)
-Nagash!!!!! RAWR!

*cough*

Anyhow back on topic, I hope theres some way to take the Snake dudes as core it would be bad ass to have an army of All Snakes and Sphinx's eating peopleunish:


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## experiment 626

Witch King of Angmar said:


> Well all the vampires need to counter the new Tomb Kings is the following
> 
> -Let all the core units "COUNT" towards your 25%
> -A New Monster of some sort (Werewolf's?)
> -Nagash!!!!! RAWR!


Not to mention;
- a massive re-pointing of pretty much the entire book!
- T3 zombies
- magic that scales
- move ghouls back to skirmish so skellies get a viable role to play
- 2-3 new special unit options
- 1-2 new rare options
- a shooting phase please since the lack of it kinda pooches us right now... (MSU = insta-win as magic can't deal with it, and we have too few units to counter it before we're surrounded)

VC's need a shit-tonne of work done on them... The Tomb King re-write proves just shit undead really are in 8th due to how Ward f'ed-up with daemons!


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## Viscount Vash

Looks like you have enough to start a what VCs need thread stored up in your head experiment 626.



TKs look like they are going to do pretty well in their new incarnation, with the points drop on skellies making big infantry blocks more viable.

Not to mention the Tomb King making any infantry he leads unit WS6, mmmm.

The onlt real issue at this time is the fact the GW are stopping metal mini production and no one knows how long it is going to take them to start selling them in a new material. 

This could make Bone Giant, Tomb Swarms, Tomb Scorpions, Carrion and other such metal minis difficult to obtain for a while.

This is pretty annoying to me as I avoided buying them in case they were redone with the new book.


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## Azkaellon

Hmmm question how many Skeleton warriors do you want in a unit? and how meany skeleton archers in a unit...im thinking 5x4 for warriors so 20 and 8x2 for archers.


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## Viscount Vash

Witch King of Angmar said:


> Hmmm question how many Skeleton warriors do you want in a unit? and how meany skeleton archers in a unit...im thinking 5x4 for warriors so 20 and 8x2 for archers.


Seeing as I have 30 spear and shield painted up 5 across 6 deep that sounds good to me.


Archers, mmm depends on Khalida's new rules, if she still affects them in the same way. But you asked that earlier in the thread and I don't know.


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## Azkaellon

Viscount Vash said:


> Seeing as I have 30 spear and shield painted up 5 across 6 deep that sounds good to me.
> 
> 
> Archers, mmm depends on Khalida's new rules, if she still affects them in the same way. But you asked that earlier in the thread and I don't know.


lol.....NiceI still hope they get Kopash's as special weapons


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## experiment 626

There's hints on the GW site that khalida still grants poisoned attacks to archer - though if it's still a pts-upgrade or not, who knows?!

As for the skellie debate, it's still going to come down to;
a) how many pts for a spear/shield model. Anything over 6pts is too much.
b) viability of magical buffs. (ie: speed of light = epic hotness!)
c) does the Tomb Prince grant a version of 'my will be done' WS buff?

Right now, I think that if you need a proper king to get the WS buff, then at best you'll see 1 spear horde - likely with banner of eternal flame (if possible) in order to bring a viable answer to all the regen out there.

As for archers, units of 25 lined up 10 wide still pump out 23 shots/turn, and then before combat, you can reform them into a 5x5 block to build ranks & deny frontage.

Cheers!


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## Azkaellon

experiment 626 said:


> There's hints on the GW site that khalida still grants poisoned attacks to archer - though if it's still a pts-upgrade or not, who knows?!
> 
> As for the skellie debate, it's still going to come down to;
> a) how many pts for a spear/shield model. Anything over 6pts is too much.
> b) viability of magical buffs. (ie: speed of light = epic hotness!)
> c) does the Tomb Prince grant a version of 'my will be done' WS buff?
> 
> Right now, I think that if you need a proper king to get the WS buff, then at best you'll see 1 spear horde - likely with banner of eternal flame (if possible) in order to bring a viable answer to all the regen out there.
> 
> As for archers, units of 25 lined up 10 wide still pump out 23 shots/turn, and then before combat, you can reform them into a 5x5 block to build ranks & deny frontage.
> 
> Cheers!


Hmmm true, im hoping i can get some model before hand just to paint  since i do have extra vampire models.


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## Vaz

I can't see them being much over 6pts, and possibly 5pts being their cost (HW/S = 4pt, Swap Shield for Bow = +1pt, and Take Spear for +1pts). Maybe 6pt Bowmen in general.

For the Prince - If it does have MWBD, then at WS5, that's shit. A Nice big block of Tomb Guard Halberdiers with a Lord is the way to roll.

I do hope they get access to the Lore of Light. Speed of Light + Timewarp on Tomb Guard? What's that I hear? 2 ASF I10 WS10 S5 Killing Blow Attacks? Wigga please.

And Vash raised a good point. I can't remember seeing any models in the official shots for Ushabti.


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## Azkaellon

Im hoping i can play a Heavy Sphinx \Cobra dude Themed list.


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## Troublehalf

Was reading through the Necrosphinx and the Khemrian Warsphinx rules... and *cry* they are insane. There HAS to be rules on how many you can use or a huge price point to pay.

Toughness: 8
Strength: 5
Attacks: 4
Wounds: 5
4 Tomb Guard on the Howdah with Killing Blow. Can also trade the entire amount of attacks for one big one, does small template, can take out entire units of infantry. Not to mention it has Thunderstomp and Terror.

The Necrosphinx is even more silly. Not only does it have Killing Blow rule and the Decapitating Strike rule. (This means that one of its attacks every turn is at Strength 10 with Heroic Killing Blow) It also has Terror and Fly. So, if you have no monsters like Dragons and such, it'll fly over to the Cannons and rape them. 

So it's basically an ultra-killy ultra-stompy model.... shame... there goes my wish for Lizardmen to get something stompy and killy


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## Vaz

8 S5 Attacks aren't that special, even though 4 are with Killing Blow, although that Template sounds nice (S5? Yes please). Thunderstomp is useful.

Decapitating Strike isn't THAT useful, unless the Instagib occurs regardless of Dice Roll. 1 Attack requiring a 6 is a 1 in 9 chance against low WS, and 1 in 12 against high WS.

Terror isn't particularly useful, while Fly is nice. 

If Cannons are present, the Necrosphix won't be hunting them, it'll be dieing; unless it can take a Ward Save. 

On the Bright Side, a Tomb King/Prince on War Sphinx with a Talisman of Preservation has a 4+ Ward Save which extends to the mount (gotta love that rule). 

And Thunderstomp is not that powerful - D6 hits, say average 3-4, followed by to wound, armour, and ward means you'll get 1 or 2, depending on quality. Not THAT good.

Thanks for the info though. Unlike the Stegadon, the model is just that Awesome, it just doesn't matter.


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## experiment 626

Vaz said:


> I can't see them being much over 6pts, and possibly 5pts being their cost (HW/S = 4pt, Swap Shield for Bow = +1pt, and Take Spear for +1pts). Maybe 6pt Bowmen in general.
> 
> For the Prince - If it does have MWBD, then at WS5, that's shit. A Nice big block of Tomb Guard Halberdiers with a Lord is the way to roll.
> 
> I do hope they get access to the Lore of Light. Speed of Light + Timewarp on Tomb Guard? What's that I hear? 2 ASF I10 WS10 S5 Killing Blow Attacks? Wigga please.
> 
> And Vash raised a good point. I can't remember seeing any models in the official shots for Ushabti.


I wouldn't count out a WS5 MWBD for rank and file skellies though... Especially if you're running a large unit of bowmen who re-form just before combat, a cheap prince with just some basc gear giving out WS5 could be a nasty surprise for anyone who's thinking that, that flank was 'weak' and sent too little to break through it!

And yes, Tomb Kings do indeed get Lore of Light, plus the Lore of Death on top of their own lore. So by all means, speed of light + timewarp away! Of corse, it'll be fun trying to get both spells to succeed!

There's rummors that Ushabti have some new models ready for release, likely a 3 model/box plastic set with the options for their new hand weapon/shield, great weapon & great bow options... Probably likely to be a 2nd wave release, or perhaps GW will pull one on us and release them 2 weeks after the first slew of stuff! (as there's always 2 release days each month)

Cheers!


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## Akatsuki13

Personally, I can't wait to get my hands on the new Tomb Kings book (a full color book!) and the new Tomb Guard. That will be what I'll buy when they release. Then once I have those I'll redo my army list and decide what new units I want to get. Though the Necrosphinx/Warsphinx will probably be added to my army.



Witch King of Angmar said:


> *looks at his vampire army, then his skaven army* Aw Fuck. Anyone know what High Queen Khalida does in the new book? She is one model i have always wanted to paint.


If you go to her model in the GW you'll see that she's been repainted (along with all the TK models for that matter). Plus she's one of only two current TK special characters. So it's safe to say that she's returning.


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## Azkaellon

Well going on leaked info on point cost so far im thinking for a 3k list core.......


Core-1385
=====
6 Chariots-320
Command

6 Chariots-320
Command

40 Skeletons-425
Command\spear&Shield, Light Armor

16 Archers-160

16 Archers-160

To many points maybe in core?


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## Akatsuki13

Did they raise the price of Chariots? Cause in my current 1500 list I got 6 Chariots with Full Command and they come out to 290pts. If they have, then I'm gonna be a little made. It's gonna be hard enough to decide on what to add from the new models without them jacking up the pts on my favorites of my current army.

Azkaellon: Depends on the rest of the army. For the longest time, my TK army was just my Lords & Heroes and only Core Units. Their Core Units are incredibly versatile for what they are, especially when you add in their support magic which always casts (unless the enemy Dispels it) and can be cast by TKs, TPs and LPs. It wasn't until this past Christmas that I picked up some Scorpions and a Catapult. Though that will change with the upcoming release.


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## Azkaellon

Akatsuki13 said:


> Did they raise the price of Chariots? Cause in my current 1500 list I got 6 Chariots with Full Command and they come out to 290pts. If they have, then I'm gonna be a little made. It's gonna be hard enough to decide on what to add from the new models without them jacking up the pts on my favorites of my current army.


Ya chariots are 45 points each now apparently. Or possibly 55........They said 5 more points each, but the guy thought they where base 50 or something :ireful2:


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## Akatsuki13

Azkaellon said:


> Ya chariots are 45 points each now apparently. Or possibly 55........They said 5 more points each, but the guy thought they where base 50 or something :ireful2:


I can stand 45pts but 55pts! :angry::ireful2::angry: That's 380pts for 6 with Full Command! I can get 15 Tomb Guard for less! My Chariots better not be 55pts a pop unless they drop the costs of the Command and/or boost their stats.


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## Azkaellon

Akatsuki13 said:


> I can stand 45pts but 55pts! :angry::ireful2::angry: That's 380pts for 6 with Full Command! I can get 15 Tomb Guard for less! My Chariots better not be 55pts a pop unless they drop the costs of the Command and/or boost their stats.


Don't think so...but apparently you don't need a tomb king to run them as core anymore or something like that. Also got any spare chariots?  *wants to test colors*


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## coke123

Akatsuki13 said:


> I can stand 45pts but 55pts! :angry::ireful2::angry: That's 380pts for 6 with Full Command! I can get 15 Tomb Guard for less! My Chariots better not be 55pts a pop unless they drop the costs of the Command and/or boost their stats.


They're still awesome. 6 chariots in a 3x2 formation gets 3D6 S5 impact hits, IIRC. And then you actually get to attack. Only problem is survivability, I guess. 45pts seems about right, but I only got a quick look at the book, so I don't know for sure


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## blackspine

I'm sorry.
But this all just seems absurd and overkill.
And what could be the start of a huge escalation.

t8 monsters on small base that you could easily have 3 of? With s5 template attacks or KB? 
Then a Heroic KB s10 attack on a slightly more pricey model? 
Cheap as dirt chariots that cause d6 impacts? 
Potentially poisoned arrow volleys (if kept from last book)
dirt cheap ressurectable hordes that can now AMBUSH better than 'ambushers'?

It's very cool that TK get a new book, and some gorgeous models. However, this is the first time I've been appalled at something in the books/ releases. These monsters are simply overkill and leave many armies with little to no options to face them. 
A flying T8 heroic killing monster w/ s10? Well, how can that not get in your flanks and wipe out pretty much anything? Short of empire/ dwarven shooting, you don't have much a realistic chance to take it down. Magic phase? If you get off every combo, you could maybe...but when was the last magic phase you got off every combo? Smaller bases means less strike backs.

Honestly, the chariots is the straw that broke my opinion on this. Cheap, now hard hitting ranked impact hits. Cheap doesn't even cover it. Chariots are usually taken for their impact hits, most armies pay above 100 points for one. Beastmen, pay 80 and that's supposed to be one of our HUGE advantages.

that and the 'super powerful monsters' w/ T5 or T6....that have no save and are on *actual *monster bases. 
Because they're Bloody Freaking monsters. Not chariots. 

The new O&G book is powerful. It's fitting to a horde army and is quite balanced and holds its own (with some nice advantages in some areas) vs. most armies out there. This upcoming book seems absurd.

Is it the time of 'every army gets a free monster!'? Will the next be t10 with a 2+ ward save and heroic killing blow breath weapon? 

The information released has really put a damper on my enthusiasm for the game.


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## Akatsuki13

coke123 said:


> They're still awesome. 6 chariots in a 3x2 formation gets 3D6 S5 impact hits, IIRC. And then you actually get to attack. Only problem is survivability, I guess. 45pts seems about right, but I only got a quick look at the book, so I don't know for sure


I never said they weren't awesome but I just don't like having to spend 90 more pts on my chariot team alone, without the Command which is another 50pts. So it starts to add up. I can stand the 30pt raise of 45pts a chariot but the 55pts (if its true) pisses me off. Namely cause with the release I was thinking of adding second 6 chariot team to my army.



Azkaellon said:


> Don't think so...but apparently you don't need a tomb king to run them as core anymore or something like that. Also got any spare chariots?  *wants to test colors*


Doesn't matter. I _always_ take a Tomb King as my leader. Liche High Priests are good and all but much prefer my Tomb King.


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## experiment 626

Wow, this amuzes me quite a bit; someone whining about have kick-ass core choices?!! I honestly wonder what it's like to have more than 1 core option, not to mention 'hard-hitting' core option/s??!
Seriously! Those chariots were crap before. They've gotten a serious power-boost, count towards your core minimums without requiring a character to 'unlock' the option, *and* they even get a better armour save now! (rummored to be 4+)
The balance is the cost going up a bit, likely T4 & being undead.

The higher cost is to simply stop TK players from spaming insane amounts of them... I know TK players have a right to wish for alot considering their 10 years of neglect, but why is it that most TK players seem to think their book needs to go from 'un-playable' to 'utterly broken on the level of 7th ed daemons'?!?
At least be happy with the fact that you guys are getting viable undead. VC's have now joined WE's, brets & ogres as the rank bottom tiers...


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## Vaz

blackspine said:


> t8 monsters on small base that you could easily have 3 of? With s5 template attacks or KB?


Are they rare, or special? If Rare, then you need 3K of. Admittedly - they're available at Ardboyz to take 3 either way. Thing is - they have very few attacks at killing blow. Less than a normal unit of Tomb Guard. But Template Attacks? About time they got something good out of it - I always felt that the Thunderstomp would be better represented as such. Still.



> Then a Heroic KB s10 attack on a slightly more pricey model?


One single attack, IIRC, which has got to hit, then roll a 6, and followed up by the opponent failing (the typical) 4++ Ward Save on their characters. That's quite an achievement, and a risk - even though they still have the remainder of their attacks, and Thunderstomp, which due to sheer number are far more likely to succeed.



> Cheap as dirt chariots that cause d6 impacts?


Unless they're T5 4 Wounds with a 3+ Save like normal chariots, that's nothing major. Currently, as T4 with 3 wounds and a 4+ Save will see them lose a fair bit of effectiveness. Even so, Monstrous Infantry is a fairly effective block (Trolls in WoC and Greenskins, Minotaurs in Beastmen, Ushabti in Tomb Kings, the eponymous Ogres, and - despite the better options available, being the only reason not to take them - Kroxigors in Lizardmen) in enough numbers, factoring in a 3D6 S5 Impact Hit, despite the fragility, they are healable - and potentially, as experiment mentioned, WS5/6 with a Prince/King. 



> Potentially poisoned arrow volleys (if kept from last book)


Not that dangerous. Khalida had to be taken, made the archers 40pts less than Glade Guard, for shorter range, less accuracy, slow movement, and their one benefit being Autowound, instead of higher strength at short range. Against most enemies, Glade Guard for 240pts could put out the same amount of S4 hits, as the enemy got S3 hits/autowounds - but due to the modifier, allowed more kills. The difference? 2pts a model. Khalida just make the best of a shitty hand. I can see where you're coming from running near total T4 with a 5+ or lower lists which are also fairly expensive. It was never that much to have a whinge about, as it was the shittiness of beastmen rather than how effective Tomb Kings were.



> dirt cheap ressurectable hordes that can now AMBUSH better than 'ambushers'?


We get the picture mate. You're fucked off with how shit Beastmen are. I also felt that in the last 4 editions of the game (including Ravening Hordes); Pure Beastmen were the weakest of the Chaos Races; potentially one of the weakest races in game.



> It's very cool that TK get a new book, and some gorgeous models. However, this is the first time I've been appalled at something in the books/ releases. These monsters are simply overkill and leave many armies with little to no options to face them.





> A flying T8 heroic killing monster w/ s10?


See above for it's stats. And T8 is wounded on a 6+; much like T6 or above for most armies. It's no difference shooting at a Flying T8 monster with a 3+ (predicted) save monster than one with a T6 flying monster when you have T4 or lower shooting. Perhaps even weaker, considering that a Flying Monster can take a Rider (admittedly doubling the cost) with a 4+ Ward Save. Who does this annoy the most? Chaos Warriors with their S5-6 Blocks now as worse than witch elves (hatred, and maybe being affected by Poison). 



> Well, how can that not get in your flanks and wipe out pretty much anything? Short of empire/ dwarven shooting, you don't have much a realistic chance to take it down.


Infantry Blocks. Yeah, the Template attack would be a bit of a pain, but unless it's resolved as a shooting attack, you can get a parry save, and you may well have a higher Initiative.



> Magic phase? If you get off every combo, you could maybe...but when was the last magic phase you got off every combo?





> Smaller bases means less strike backs.


you still get 2, maybe 3 depending on Spears or Horde. And going Horde will also reduce hits from the Template. 



> Honestly, the chariots is the straw that broke my opinion on this. Cheap, now hard hitting ranked impact hits. Cheap doesn't even cover it. Chariots are usually taken for their impact hits, most armies pay above 100 points for one. Beastmen, pay 80 and that's supposed to be one of our HUGE advantages.


No, it's just the one advantage Beastmen have over other armies. A Huge advantage is the High Elves ASF. It grants the same, but better benefit of their Dark friends, while in previous editions, made an entire phase of the game worthless. A 20pt Reduction is not a HUGE advantage; as you have to pay to take advantage of it. Again, the point is made; Beastmen are shit.

And yes, even at half the cost, They're hampered - YES - HAMPERED, by the odd funny little charge distance; even with Swiftstride and M10 from the Lore of Light spell; IIRC they cannot march - meaning that their average 27" Second turn Charge can be happily countered by setting up outside 30", and not moving. Conveniently also out of range of bowmen; who then cannot shoot until the second turn.



> that and the 'super powerful monsters' w/ T5 or T6....that have no save and are on *actual *monster bases.
> Because they're Bloody Freaking monsters. Not chariots.


Monster bases are 50mm. Like the Treeman and Plastic Dragon. Like the metal dragon, hippogryff, plastic griffon, metal griffon, and demigryph. Hell, Setrra's base is 100mm. He's on a chariot. As it is, he's currently unusable competitively. Oh, what's that, you have D6+1 impact hits? Haiy muff, I strike back with 12-18 models. 



> The new O&G book is powerful. It's fitting to a horde army and is quite balanced and holds its own (with some nice advantages in some areas) vs. most armies out there. This upcoming book seems absurd.


Codex: Grey Knights; Codex: Space Marines. All of which people were *UMG OP LOLOLOL* and look at them both shortly after release. *Actually, these seem pretty funny lists, but they're not particularly powerful*. Grey Knights in particular; everyone was up in arms about the Monkeys, Force Weapons, and cheapo Servitor's. Yeah, it's got some degree of strength. BUT the true strength of the Knights lies in their Psycannons - the cheapest cost to take one lies in a Strike Squad with a Psycannon. 125pts for that; and it's fairly ineffective.



> Is it the time of 'every army gets a free monster!'? Will the next be t10 with a 2+ ward save and heroic killing blow breath weapon?


That's the High Elf Spearman's Profile. Do note that they did drop ASF though.



> The information released has really put a damper on my enthusiasm for the game.


I would have thought 8th edition release would have done that.


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## blackspine

Thanks for reply Vaz. 
Sorry, had that bubbling inside of me for some time.
You've got some good points.

the monsters in question are being released, oddly enough, on chariot bases. So that does mean less attacks back at them. So less chances of rolling those '6s'. 

8th edition has two things for the beastman army. Hordes and step up rules.

You hit the nail on the head. I'm fed up with having a neglected book. Even when it was released, it was lackluster. Each new army seems like a middle finger at us. Cheaper more effective cores, bigger monsters (that are useful), actual shooting phases to deal with the units that everyone says 'just shoot at them'.
Grr.
in the mean time, I'm going to continue pushing the petition to improve our Rares (ghorgon, cygor & jabberslythe) and play beasts knowing im 20 steps behind. 
Hell, our army would be easily better if we had more than one unit that could take a magic banner. Or even some weapon options. 
Which makes victories all the much better.


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## Azkaellon

Look on the upside you get giant nippled beasts of death!^

But back on topic im hoping Chariots are worth there points!


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## Vaz

blackspine said:


> the monsters in question are being released, oddly enough, on chariot bases. So that does mean less attacks back at them. So less chances of rolling those '6s'.


Oh, I getcha. (2x25)x100 is smaller than 1 by 50x50 or 50x100?



> You hit the nail on the head. I'm fed up with having a neglected book. Even when it was released, it was lackluster. Each new army seems like a middle finger at us. Cheaper more effective cores, bigger monsters (that are useful), actual shooting phases to deal with the units that everyone says 'just shoot at them'.


The time of "Hordes" of Chaos was the best all around. "Orange Fire" Tzeentch Chaos Lords backed by Minotaurs, Shaggoths, and Marauders and Chaos Spawn were nice.



> in the mean time, I'm going to continue pushing the petition to improve our Rares (ghorgon, cygor & jabberslythe) and play beasts knowing im 20 steps behind.


Aye. But it's a grand feeling when something worked though; and you win; especially against 7th Edition Vampires which ASF Ghouls always seemed to make mincemeat of any build available.



> Hell, our army would be easily better if we had more than one unit that could take a magic banner. Or even some weapon options.


It's less the weapon options. I think we need someone to go "Back to basics" with the entire game, and strip it back to bare minimum; no special rules, etc; only adding them in when it's needed, no expected. Like 40K used to be, units were defined by role, rather than rules.


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## Azkaellon

I just hope we get to see a book soon so i can know how Meany sphinxs to order


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## Akatsuki13

Well considering in the video they released last Friday talking about the Tomb Kings new models, rulebook and new magic, where they revealed that the Necrosphinx is a Rare Choice and the Warsphinx is a Special Choice (or taken as a Tomb King/Prince mount). You need at least 25% of your army to be Core Units and both a Tomb King and Liche Priest to lead and maintain your army. In theory, you could take the bare minimum of L&H and Core units and fill up the rest with sphinxes but you would be greatly limiting your army. 

The TK have a lot of great units in their armies already and are getting some more with this release. Anyone that wants to build a sphinx-heavy army is really cheating themselves out of a surprisingly diverse army. Yeah, a sphinx-heavy army could steamroll over other armies but that's really all you could do. Chances are they'd be less useful in games with special victory conditions or in games with narrow bridges separating the armies. Your opponents could just wait on their side of the bridges, firing magic, bow and cannon at the Warsphinxes as they cross in single file. Plus, if someone sees a sphinx-heavy army, they're probably gonna say 'No thanks, I'll play someone with fewer monsters.'

Personally, I'm more excited for the other new units and their new Nekekharan Lore of Magic. Still incantations but now their support spells that let them move or attack again also raise some of their fallen warriors back. And they're getting the Lores of Light and Death in incantation form! Finally the Tomb Kings are going to have a strong, proper magic phase.


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## Gharof von Carstein

This is the first iv heard about the sphinxes and tomb kings going to be broken upon release. on warseer the consensus appears to be that the lore of nehekhara sucks. its a lot of iffy support spells at high casting ranges. That means that the focus will shift from magic to monsters with TK. If that is the case id love to face that army with beastmen blackspine. Why? I recently learned how devastating Beastmen can be now when we max out on magic. a LV4 with death and a lot of lvl 1's with shadow coupled with a lvl 2 with beasts makes things hard for the opponent. specially if you throw in herdstone. bring your petty little sphinx. Fate of bjuna all around baby! (killed a daemon prince and a dragon ogre shaggoth with that spell in 2 rounds last time i faced WoC with beasts) than just pump up your own units with wyssans and make the other guy weaker and you basically get to roll over a lot of stuff. Hell even the ghorgon I fielded for a laugh did REALLY well with a wyssans on him. He completly annihilated 15 WoC by himself than went over and knocked around a few marauder horsemen.


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## Masked Jackal

Frankly, I wouldn't rely on Warseer for any real tactical consensus. Also, they will now have access to Light and Death apparently, the former of which will be quite useful to them.


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## experiment 626

The new TK lore isn't crap - it's actually quite terrifying as all their buffs have at least a 12" bubble of effect. That basically means they have a total area-effect of 24", which is huge! (you only need 1 model of a unit to be in range for everyone to get the effect)
Sure skullstorm isn't the killyest vortex, but then why does it have to be? Just so we can bitch about yet another idiotic, broken super-spell that can ruin the game in a single cast?!? No thanks, those spells were a mistake to begin with!
And their hex spell will combo quite nicely with the lore of death to add to the effect. (which normally requires at least a loremaster + luck to get the same effect with other armies!)

The nehekaran lore is different, and the bulk of the tomb king players who are whining endlessly about it are those who simply want their magic to stay over-powered like it currently is!
I can foresee Tomb Kign armies running a Lv4 w/nehekaran lore + a couple of death wizards becoming truely fearsome; through out the death spells first to suck out dispel dice/scroll & help replenish the casting pool, then unload with buffs for which the enemy has few to no dice to stop them with!

Cheers!


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## Akatsuki13

Don't forget the Lore of Light either. Some of its augment spells would be a great boon for the ranks of slow moving skeletons. And of they'll all be in TK incantation form, so they will cast automatically (unless dispelled by the enemy) and you never have to worry about the Liche Priest holding your army together getting torn apart by a Miscast as was the amusing case with a VC-playing friend of mine once.


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## Troublehalf

I also personally think the WarS and NecroS are pretty overkill. Was reading a report on one of the GW web team, and they one hitted a Giant. Pretty cool unit.

Regardless, everything has to roll a 6 to wound one of them, which is a pretty tough thing to do. Coupled with 5 wounds, I think you'd be lucky to get 5 rolls off, all 6's from your cannons before it had raped something. I suspect it will cost a fair bit thou. I mean not even a Carnosaur is that powerful (tho it is kinda imba) I think one is 290? So I don't see why the WarS can't be 300+. Any less and TK will get a lot of new players buying them


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## kain1989

got a look at a store copy of the tomb king codex. I don't think they sphinx's are brutal, they're just over 200 points, but their special rules, will only happen once in a blue moon, the thundercrush is good, but will only work half the time, and the decapitating strike will never actually killing blow anything. i don't want to break copyright laws and get into specifics, but tomb kings are infinitely better, but certainly not broken


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## Alsojames

Looking at these new models, I may get these guys as my 3rd WFB army instead of Dark Elves.


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## experiment 626

The 3 newest books - Beastmen, O&G's, Tomb Kings - have done and/or appear to have done a fine job of rebalancing everything.
There's some standout stuff in each book, some decent item combos, lots of variety and of corse, a few not-so-great choices... Each army however is fairly well balanced and nothing about them is abusively over-powered like we can currently get out of alot of the 7th ed books. (HE's, DE's, Lizzies, WoC, DoC & Skaven being the big problem books - especially those dirty rats!!!)

The new style of book really reminds me of the days of 6th ed. Your units were the real workhorses of the army who would make/break the game, while all your characters, wizards, cavalry & monsters were support.
Having played this game from 5th - 8th now, I can easily say the I found 6th ed to be the most balanced by far in terms of the army book power as each book had some outstanding choices, but nothing that was hopelessly game-breaking by itself... (Though the dark elves suffered alot as their initial book was utter bull-poop before the WD update!)

Hopefully GW will stay the corse with this new style of book!

Cheers!


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