# new warhammer rules



## your master (Jun 14, 2008)

couldnt find a theread on this so i have started one been speaking to a friend who works at GW and he was giving me a few tidbits about the new rules combat in initiative order spears get attacks from 3 ranks but the most interesting change is that the army composition has changed now 25% of your point must be heroes or lords (so yes you can have a 250pt lord in a 1000pt battle) and at least 25% of your points need to be core, special and rare units. i rekon this is gonna kick high elves in the face as they cant field the specialised armies they are supossed to in lower point battles however i am a dark elf player and this change rocks for me and my assasins


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

not completely correct there, but close
you can actually pop into gw today and look at the book and put in your adv order

i'm going into my store this afternoon to do just that, and play some games of manhammer.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Magic looks much better.

Every Magic Phase 2D6 power dice are generated.

The highest D6 in the 2D6 roll above is the number of Dispel Dice you get.

(So a roll of a 4 and a 6 on 2D6 gives 10 Power dice and 6 Dispel Dice - you can never go above 12 for either)

Wizards can use up to 6 dice per spell, and their level is now a modifier to the casting roll (for example a Level 2 rolling 8 to cast effectively gets 10). This modifier applies to Dispel attempts as well.

If the casting attempt is ever a natural 1 or 2 (before all modifiers) then the spell fails. (this means a 1-in-3 chance of failing a spell if you only use 1 Dice) *If a wizard ever fails to cast or dispel, you cannot use that wizard to cast/dispel in that phase again.*

Irrisistable Force and Miscasting are both now the same thing. On any double 6 the spell is undispellable, but also causes serious damage to the caster.

Miscasts are nasty. Anything that's a 7 or less causes a S10 hit (and can be large/small blasts as well). 

Note that in this edition there is no such thing as "partials" any more. Like 40k, if you're touched by the template, you're hit.

Bound spells require dice from your pool to cast.

Every Lore has a passive effect (Lore of Life restores wounds to the caster every time you get a spell off, Lore of Fire causes more damage the more you hit the same unit repeatedly etc) and each Lore also has a "Freebie" spell in the same way as Dark Elves and High Elves. These "freebies" are just as powerful (if not more so) than spells you actually roll for.

Spells in general are much more powerful (one notable one can reduce *all* enemy models within 24" S and T by one) but have much higher casting values (24+ to cast is one of the highest). It is therefore much more risky, but also more spectacular when it goes right (or wrong!!).

There is also a lot more "pick any model in a unit - including heroes/champions/Lords/whatever and do nasty stuff to it" than there was in last edition. Don't be surprised if your nasty combat Lord of Death gets sniped by someone from 24" away.

Hopefully I haven't broken too many rules by posting this, feel free to delete it asap if this is more rules text than we are legally allowed.

/cue people bitching about VCs being nerfed into the ground :laugh:


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

I think im starting to like the magic phase more... seems more fun! and unpredictable which the magic phase should be!


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Sethis said:


> Every Lore has a passive effect (Lore of Life restores wounds to the caster every time you get a spell off, Lore of Fire causes more damage the more you hit the same unit repeatedly etc) and each Lore also has a "Freebie" spell in the same way as Dark Elves and High Elves. These "freebies" are just as powerful (if not more so) than spells you actually roll for.
> 
> Spells in general are much more powerful (one notable one can reduce *all* enemy models within 24" S and T by one) but have much higher casting values (24+ to cast is one of the highest). It is therefore much more risky, but also more spectacular when it goes right (or wrong!!).


Hmmm... any hints on what they will do to Army Specific Lores?

If the main lores are balanced for large numbers of dice then simple spells from, for instance, the Lores of Chaos are going to be cast repeatedly even by level 1 sorcerers.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Unless the Spell specifically states otherwise, you can only cast each spell once per turn (i.e. to the best of my knowledge, only Undead Armies can do it, because they specifically say in the codex that you can). You can also only have 1 "copy" of each spell per army - for example if I roll Uranon's Thunderbolt for my level 2 and then also for my level 4, I will be able to choose a spell from the same lore instead for my level 4. There are a list of exceptions to that rule though - the main one I can remember is if the spell is granted by an item, bound or otherwise.

Obviously, it being the core rulebook, there is no information on army specific lores yet. Expect every one of them to have a "signature" spell and a passive effect, as I said.

Also as a new addition is the ability to alter some spells, generally getting bigger effects in return for raising the casting value. i.e.

Random Magic missile - Range 24" - D6 S4 hits - Difficulty 7

can become:

Random Magic missile - Range 48" - D6 S4 hits - Difficulty 14

Frankly I'd be very surprised if anyone continued using Lores from the Army books if they have the choice - I know my Dark Elves are all instantly switching to Lore of Death/Shadows (mainly because the freebie spell from Dark Magic isn't so good if you're capped at 12 power dice per turn regardless of the size of your army).


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Big changes to combat as well - notably:

- Charging is now base movement + 2D6" instead of a flat double-distance
- Everyone is going to fight/shoot in more ranks. Elves with spears are going to be fighting in (I think) 5 ranks in Initiative order against a frontal charge if they have a front of 10 men.
- You can only perform 2 maneuvers - the Wheel and the Reform. If you reform you will not be moving or shooting, unless you have a musician and pass a leadership test.
- Fear tests are taken in every round of combat, not just the first, and make you WS1 if you fail.
- Charging grants +1 combat res instead of ASF.
- You can march within 8" of enemies if you make a leadership test

There are more changes, but I'm very wary about posting more of it here -I really do encourage everyone to go read the book in the store if you can manage it. This looks like the smoothest, best, least-finicky edition to date, and I do NOT mean that it sacrifices tactics in order to do so. You will still have all the challange of unit facing, etc etc that you do at the moment, but it will flow a lot smoother instead of nitpicking everything.

Last freebie: Breath Weapons are now once per game only, but can be used in combat to grant you an extra 2D6 hits in Initiative order *in addition* to your normal attacks. Sounds exactly like what a Lord on a Dragon should do if he charges some basic infantry!


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Wow sounds like they really have changed things around...hmm it will all definitely take some getting used to.


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## sphere830 (Aug 4, 2009)

Great information! I think that I also read that armor saves won't be adjusted until hits from things >strength 5. This will make a 5+ save more useful against general infantry troops. I've also heard that str 7 doesn't just kill chariots anymore, this would be very cool and make more chariots show up on the table. I kind of like these aspects. So far, with what I've read, this could play out to be the most interesting edition of the game. Bring on big unit fights, leaving the more specialized units to do their thing...this being said; I am a VC and High Elf player. I'm excited about the magic system being more risky, but sensational. I always played magic heavy list anyway, it just seemed more fitting. The 7th edition Rush and Rend list were fast and fun, but my play style has always been more general do-everything sorts of strategy. As mentioned above, one unit that I look forward to reading and cower at the idea of facing is dark elf assassins--this may be problematic for my honorable spearmen, I can only hope that swordmasters and whitelions keep their taste for blood.

I have to admit, I'm getting excited about this edition of Warhammer, hopefully its not just effective marketing fluff. :russianroulette:


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I both like and dislike the new magic changes. I too play high elves and I generally use Teclis but more chance of a spell cast irresistably means he is going to hurt himself more often. Something does not sound right there. Especially from one fo the best magic users in the game....


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## sphere830 (Aug 4, 2009)

But remember with a new addition also comes a new army book. I'm sure Teclis will have some advantage on the magic system, he always has.


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## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

i hope GW don't take there time bring out new army books


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## Skartooth (Jun 4, 2010)

The new charging rules seems a bit hit and miss. Could either take a lot of tactics out of the game or add a whole new level

Magic seems pretty cool, Although it will be shame if your army book has it's own specific law. Like my 0&G 

Skar


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Does anyone know if they have amended army book magics in the main rule book? Because if they don't one can assume all the old army books army specific spell charts will remain the same?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

LukeValantine said:


> Does anyone know if they have amended army book magics in the main rule book? Because if they don't one can assume all the old army books army specific spell charts will remain the same?


They'll release Errata/FAQs, so we just wait to see what they change. I highly doubt they're going to change the army-specific Lores, though. They'll likely be something you're stuck with.


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## oblivion8 (Jun 17, 2009)

glad to see there is a little more incentive to take musicians.
And I do hope they make movement a smoother process.


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## vallasch (Jun 16, 2010)

Hiya, i'm a long time lurker of the rumour forum but had to register to post my thoughts. I generally think all the changes are ok, although it sounds alot like they're trying to make Warhammer Fantasy into Warhammer Apocolypse.

But i really don't like the idea of charging grants +1 res instead of ASF. I'm assuming great weapons still make you strike last? If so great weapons will be utterly useless. With their low armour they will be dead before they even swing?:russianroulette:

Dark Elves i suppose can even things out with assassins. What about great weapon grave guard? They could use Van Hels Dance Macabre to strike first but only if the magic phase is still after movement. And there were many rumours saying magic would now be before movement? Could anyone confirm?

Thanks


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Yes, great Weapons still strike last - and probably means that the unit will either have a Banner that grants ASF (as Black Guard commonly do at the moment) or have at least Heavy Armour. The fighting in 2 ranks is also helpful - you no longer lose the chance to strike back if you lose your front rank.

From a skim-read of the rulebook, it looks like this edition is going to be focused around large infantry blocks with various supporting units. Instead of charging 5 Chaos Knights into 20 Spearmen and winning easily, you will instead be charging with your own infantry block, and then trying to turn a flank with your cavalry/skirmishers/monsters/flyers. None of which is a bad thing, in my mind - it's how actual warfare worked back in the pre-gunpowder age. As an example High Elves are no longer going to be able to have 2 units of 10 Archers and then fill up on White Lions, Swordmasters, Phoenix Guard and Mage Lords. Instead, they're going to have an army core of citizen levy supported by one or two elite units. This fits perfectly into the fluff of what their armies are supposed to be composed of.

I wouldn't say that it's WFB Apoc. Because Apoc is all about the "Big specials" like Superheavies, Forgeworld stuff, Tank formations. 8th Ed is almost completely the opposite, based on big units of basic infantry. Yes, Magic is INSANE powerful if it works, but the risks are very high as well. Not only of miscasting, but of being a bit useless for a whole phase (say if you roll a 6 and a 1 = 7 Power and 6 Dispel available).


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## aquatic_foible (Mar 17, 2010)

was in my local GW store this morning, and the lovely chaps in there let me have a flick through the new book [which is an obscenely beautiful thing] and ran me through a game, to show off the new rules.

bearing in mind that i haven't played warhammer in about 10 years, the new version works really well - the game moved at a fast, thoroughly enjoyable pace, and the unpredictability of the magic phase is huge amounts of fun. the emphasis [as already stated ad nauseam] is predicated towards large units of basic infantry, but the close-combat rules mean that small units can still hold their own. overall, it seems well balanced, not overly complicated, with enough nuances to allow players to really flex their tactical "muscles" - but that's only based on the experience of 1 [very quick 500pt] game.

even though i'm on a 40k trip right now, i'm very tempted to visit my parents just to dig my old wood elves out of the attic, and get them board-ready again :grin:


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## Darktheos (May 9, 2008)

I like some of the new "Common Magic Items" along with the new deployment types.


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## KarlFranz40k (Jan 30, 2009)

Hmm, I'm slightly saddened to find that the new focus is on blocks of infantry with a couple of supporting units. I had planned - as soon as I clear up a backlog of models - to make an elite mounted dark elf army entirely comprised of cold ones and dark riders, doesn't look nearly as feasible now 

But on the flipside, my empire army may actually be competitive now! Massed detachments FTW!


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I disagree with the emphasis on troops. In pre-modern history battles were norma;;y won by the decisive charge of one heavy unit or the inspiring abilities of a leader. Not the average Joes normally used by some nations to soak up the enemy charge so the elite units can easily crush them.

Apart from the magic phase it looks like the new rulebook really benefits wood elves. Must get some!


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## HiveMinder (Feb 8, 2010)

Stephen_Newman said:


> I disagree with the emphasis on troops. In pre-modern history battles were normally won by the decisive charge of one heavy unit or the inspiring abilities of a leader. Not the average Joes normally used by some nations to soak up the enemy charge so the elite units can easily crush them.


While that may be true, there were still more average joes on the battlefield than cavalry, artillery, or heroes. 

I'm a skaven player, and these are the things I'm looking forward to:

1. The army composition sounds like its going to be excellent for my skaven. My army has been large blocks of infantry supported by a few special weapons for years. And with the new combat rules, my rats should pack a lot more punch than they used to.

2. The new magic rules will make Grey Seers absolute monsters. Warpstone tokens are going to be fantastic for making sure the skaven always have a useful magic phase. In general, I think a lot more wizards' heads will be exploding this edition.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> I disagree with the emphasis on troops. In pre-modern history battles were norma;;y won by the decisive charge of one heavy unit or the inspiring abilities of a leader. Not the average Joes normally used by some nations to soak up the enemy charge so the elite units can easily crush them.


Not really... I point you at the Battle of Bannockburn and Agincourt, to name a couple.

Yes, inspiring leaders were useful (and few and far between) and elite units were powerful, but only in conjunction with an army of sufficient numbers and advantegeous terrain.

Going back even further, the various Greek wars were mostly won by Phalanxes, and the Roman Legions didn't really have any crack units, just legion upon legion of disciplined and well trained men who could overcome superior numbers through the use of strategy and formations.

I totally agree with the decision to move away from "Herohammer" and the de-emphasis of units of 5-10 sickeningly powerful knights. Yes, characters are still powerful, yes cavalry is still important, but you're going to do badly if you only rely on those two things in the new edition. As it should be.


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Agreed - might actually feel like a wargame now rather than a character bashing fest...


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I will agree that maybe the new rules will feel less like a Warhammer God of War setting. 

Although I would like to point out that the Romans did have crack units as did the greeks. Units like the Arcani, Praetorians and Sammite gladiators were used by the romans and the greeks often used mass cavalry attacks and even war elephants to help them (al a Alexander the Great when he invaded India).

I would like to point out that I am not going against the rules. Of course there should be more reason for small units of knights to get bogged down and get pulled off their horses just like what happened in real life. I am just stating how I will miss it. I just take a while to adapt well.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Yes, but Agincourt spelled the END of the med. warfare style. Up until then heavy cavalry had been the final be-all end-all. You had infantry because you had to, and some armies had things like elite pikemen that changed things, but the success of the massed longbow was a sign things to come. In any case, it surprised the English as much as it suprised the French, and armour technology changed enough to prevent it from happening again (right in time for the gun to make the point moot, ironically).

Besides, no one except the English could field anything like longbowmen. The amount of training required prevented anyone else from having significant access to them, and by the time the 100 years war period was over their own supply had been hit hard enough to force them to change their tactics.


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## Duke Vorian (Jun 21, 2008)

Sorry but the Long bowmen of England were never really "trained". They were woodsmen conscripted into the kings army largely. Their may have been some that stuck with their lords, but all in all they were mainly common woodsmen who were skilled at the longbow by their forefathers. 

Not dumbing down by any means, and this is way off of what the intent of the original post but just for correction purposes.

For my two cents though on the rules from what I have read on the forums and GW site I am very excited to play now more then ever. I play High Elves and though I saw the advantages of excelling at my Special choices I always found it kind of un...fluff wise, that I was not fielding any Spearmen, let alone archers. I think this is going to be a very good step for GW and make a lot of people happy. I know their was plenty of times where nitpicking just killed a game and a lot of that has seemed to gotten addressed


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## Adeptus (Aug 12, 2009)

As a Chaos Daemon player i can say that the new changes suit me fine . I usually stick to infrantry supported by a flank charge of cavalry . I love the new excitment brought by the magic phase . ( Thank god my fella's have re-rolls for casting  )


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## CaptainBudget (Jun 14, 2010)

I'm in for some serious changes myself as I've got a Tomb kings army reliant on a lot of chariots and characters, and only one unit infantry. Be interesting to see how incantations work in the new rules (they'd better bring the errata out quickly or I'm stuck!).


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

CaptainBudget said:


> ...they'd better bring the errata out quickly....


Last I heard GW intend to upload the errata the day before the BRB is released (i.e. Friday). Given their usual failure at uploading I am expecting them some point next week.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

Dave T Hobbit said:


> Last I heard GW intend to upload the errata the day before the BRB is released (i.e. Friday). Given their usual failure at uploading I am expecting them some point next week.


You forgot to add the "and then another year" part. Oh wait, I'm so sorry, Spass Maaahreeens need another codex first. How silly of me.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I'm expecting a major crash on release day.


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## Adeptus (Aug 12, 2009)

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> You forgot to add the "and then another year" part. Oh wait, I'm so sorry, Spass Maaahreeens need another codex first. How silly of me.


Must admit i agree . When you think about it the Space marines havent had a codex in around to years ........Oh shock horror...................Oh wait im ranting about an army that ive played ..............meh DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR !


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## karlhunt (Mar 24, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> I disagree with the emphasis on troops. In pre-modern history battles were norma;;y won by the decisive charge of one heavy unit or the inspiring abilities of a leader. Not the average Joes normally used by some nations to soak up the enemy charge so the elite units can easily crush them.
> 
> Apart from the magic phase it looks like the new rulebook really benefits wood elves. Must get some!


Hate to break it to you but from where I'm sitting Wood Elves got the bloody pulp beat out of them with the Nurf stick. Come on, skirmishers have a facking and form up in ranks just looser, that and every other army moves through woods like they're not there. Wood Elves = worthless, I can't give the models away. Guess I'll use them as counts as good looking High Elves.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

karlhunt said:


> ...every other army moves through woods like they're not there. Wood Elves = worthless....


The promotional videos refer to changing terrain so that woods were foreboding places where you go in and do not come out &c. Are there actually any rules which cause such effect? If so it is possible that a benefit for wood elves in their .pdf will be that Dryads and such do not stealth attack them in terrain features.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Dave T Hobbit said:


> The promotional videos refer to changing terrain so that woods were foreboding places where you go in and do not come out &c. Are there actually any rules which cause such effect?


Actually, yes. If I remember correctly there's a 2/3 chance that any given Forest will do something wacky like try to eat your unit. It's even worse with bodies of water (5/6 chance).


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

forests can be normal, or mysterious... mysterious forests are random, you roll a D6, 1 is a normal forest and then the other results do fun things: difficult terrain, gives you poisoned attacks, D6 S4 hits, D6 S4 hits and moves randomly if unit is hit by magic...

Forests are dangerous for most non-infantry units already... but you can walk/charge straight through them, tree-singing is pretty useless. Im thinking a Lv4 with beastst for my WE, but Im not going to give up with them.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> forests can be normal, or mysterious... mysterious forests are random, you roll a D6, 1 is a normal forest and then the other results do fun things: difficult terrain, gives you poisoned attacks, D6 S4 hits, D6 S4 hits and moves randomly if unit is hit by magic...
> 
> Forests are dangerous for most non-infantry units already... but you can walk/charge straight through them, tree-singing is pretty useless


If you are at risk of a wacky effect then surely tree-singing removes the risk of wacky effects for WE?


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