# Dante / Sanguinor.... connection?



## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

I was thinking about how Dante is supposedly the oldest living space marine (who isn't a dreadnought) and how the Sanguinor really is not explained and I started thinking conspiracy theory.

What if....

There have actually been several Dante's...

Dante is not immune to the black rage...

If Dante were to succumb, wouldn't he be just an absolute beast in CC?

Maybe when the current Dante succumbs to the black rage, he is given a Sanguinor suit and goes on a rampage, only to be replaced by a new "Dante".

That would explain how he has lived so long and also sorta explain the Sanguinor.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Meh. 

Ten limit.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Except it would not explain all of his experience from the thousand years of battles he has seen. For all the experience of other chapter masters, he is supposed to be a cut above the rest because of that reason; which you would be hard pressed to see happen in a being who simply takes up the name.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

It's implied pretty strongly that the Sanguinor is Azhellion. It is possible they have met there is a hint that the Sgt that the Sanguinor blessed on the assault of the Terrorclaw was Dante himself. 

Blood Angels just live longer than other Space Marines, that's why Dante is the Oldest Astarte. It is suggested that the older and wiser you get the harder it is to succumb to the Black Rage.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Could it be Tycho?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Isn't Tycho described being killed?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Sure but the Sanquinor isn't exactly alive either is he? I always thought of him like the Green Knight that the Bretonnians have.

Tycho did die on Armageddon though.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

I am not sure but I thought the sanguinator appeared before the death of Tycho


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I personally subscribe to the theory that the Sanguinor rather than any physical being is a manifestation brought about by the collective psyche/beliefs of the Blood Angels. Sort of like their own greater daemon to manifest in the materium or their own Waaagh effect. Perhaps it's a side effect of the black rage and the Blood Angel's psychic trauma. 

He is obviously supernatural. I mean he just appears right? You don't see him hitchhiking on people's ships and his jump-pack seems to be able to do a lot more than any jump-pack should (like lifting a Bloodthirster). 

He's definitely not Dante though. Dante's whole theme is his age and experience. Besides he's heavily hinted to have met the Sanguinor (though admittedly that by itself doesn't discount your theory). The Sanguinor's supernatural behaviour and abilities would however suggest that he's not ex 'Dantes'.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=84469&highlight=Avatar+Sanguinor
That's what I think.

GFP


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

Rems said:


> I personally subscribe to the theory that the Sanguinor rather than any physical being is a manifestation brought about by the collective psyche/beliefs of the Blood Angels. Sort of like their own greater daemon to manifest in the materium or their own Waaagh effect. Perhaps it's a side effect of the black rage and the Blood Angel's psychic trauma.
> 
> He is obviously supernatural. I mean he just appears right? You don't see him hitchhiking on people's ships and his jump-pack seems to be able to do a lot more than any jump-pack should (like lifting a Bloodthirster).
> 
> He's definitely not Dante though. Dante's whole theme is his age and experience. Besides he's heavily hinted to have met the Sanguinor (though admittedly that by itself doesn't discount your theory). The Sanguinor's supernatural behaviour and abilities would however suggest that he's not ex 'Dantes'.





Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=84469&highlight=Avatar+Sanguinor
> That's what I think.
> 
> GFP


Rems and GFP's topic of his own making argue well enough to convince me.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I`ve always equated the Sanguinor to a chapter specific version of the Legion of the Damned scenario. 

As has been said, he is a warp based entity and he appears in times of need. Much like Damned Legionaries, but with the descending angel aspect rather than the rising from flames aspect. 

That`s just my take on it.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

It would me much more interesting imo if he in fact was real and not simply a warp entity the BA created over the years.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah what makes BAs so special that they and they alone can conjure some mystical entity. Much better if he was real.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Yeah, I don't subscribe to the collective psycher conscience bullshit. 

For one, very few blood angels are psychers. 

Two, that's basically describing something that happens in the warp and how warp daemons are given power. 

Three, that implies that the Blood Angels use daemonic powers to fight for them, which is revolting. The Blood Angels, one of the staunchest and most loyal of the chapters, would not deal with warp entities or use them in battle.

Four, it's so much beyond the reasonable man's approach it's more like a "we can't explain this thing, so we're gonna blame it on the warp" mentality.

The codex and other fluff that has been written only hints at the Sanguinor's identity. The warp entity / collective conscience idea is only a theory put forth by some.

I really hope that GW does not make this voodoo / magic BS story into official fluff. They should keep it vague or explain it using a reasonable story.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I tend to think the Sanguinor is like the Acts of Faith the Sisters of Battle do, they channel an element of the Emperors will to do their bidding do to their unswerving faith in the Emperor, no one accuses them of using them Warp. The Sanguinor would appear to be a similar thing summoned to aid when times are hardest through the belief of anyone of Sanguineous's line.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

jaysen said:


> Yeah, I don't subscribe to the collective psycher conscience bullshit.
> 
> For one, very few blood angels are psychers.
> 
> ...


But a warp based phenonom is the most likely and plausible explanation. What else could it be? An ancient space marine? If so we have the oldest marine who can miraculously appear (or does he hitchike on ships, though a huge golden man who would be very conspicuous has never been reported or detained) and whose jump-pack has seemingly physics defying properties? How is that a better explanation that a warp phenomenon which has previous examples to back it up.

We know this kind of materialization/manifestation can happen. That doesn't mean that the Blood Angel's are consciously doing it though. While it's true there are not huge numbers of Blood Angel psychers they doo all have varying degrees of psychic trauma/imprinting- that's how the Black Rage occurs.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Aramoro said:


> I tend to think the Sanguinor is like the Acts of Faith the Sisters of Battle do, they channel an element of the Emperors will to do their bidding do to their unswerving faith in the Emperor, no one accuses them of using them Warp. The Sanguinor would appear to be a similar thing summoned to aid when times are hardest through the belief of anyone of Sanguineous's line.


What makes Blood Angels so faithful in the Emperor compared to other Space Marines though? why are they so special they can call forth such a being, Blood Angels can't be everything and I dislike the idea that they are now the most devout Marines and can do magical stuff like call forth an avatar of their Primarch.


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## ThoseKrazyKasrkin (Aug 2, 2011)

Rems said:


> I personally subscribe to the theory that the Sanguinor rather than any physical being is a manifestation brought about by the collective psyche/beliefs of the Blood Angels. Sort of like their own greater daemon to manifest in the materium or their own Waaagh effect. Perhaps it's a side effect of the black rage and the Blood Angel's psychic trauma.
> 
> He is obviously supernatural. I mean he just appears right? You don't see him hitchhiking on people's ships and his jump-pack seems to be able to do a lot more than any jump-pack should (like lifting a Bloodthirster).
> 
> He's definitely not Dante though. Dante's whole theme is his age and experience. Besides he's heavily hinted to have met the Sanguinor (though admittedly that by itself doesn't discount your theory). The Sanguinor's supernatural behaviour and abilities would however suggest that he's not ex 'Dantes'.


I wouldnt say he appears. It does say only a few survive the circumstances he appears in, which would reduce evidence of his appearing and helping fuel his mythic status.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

All jump packs are physics defying, as are "plasma generators", the aerodynamics of most imperial flyers, etc... Let's not bring reality into this.

I'm saying, it could be a large deception / hoax, created to hide the truth and therefore maintain morale. There's lots and lots of ways to explain how knowledge and experience could be passed on to a successor leader.

If he's a psychic manifestation, why does he have artificier armor, grenades, and a jump pack? I say he's a marine that is in the thrall of the black rage. Either he's that original Sanguinary Guard guy, or possibly he's what happens when a powerfull psycher or leader goes into black rage. I think the idea of having multiple Dantes is a juicy story and has lots of implications and plot possibilities. Much more than just chaulking it up to the warp.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> What makes Blood Angels so faithful in the Emperor compared to other Space Marines though?


Because they are just better. 



Words_of_Truth said:


> why are they so special they can call forth such a being, Blood Angels can't be everything and I dislike the idea that they are now the most devout Marines and can do magical stuff like call forth an avatar of their Primarch.


Blood Angels have always been devout Marines, they have different customs and rituals to the other chapters and more than any other Chapter they worship their Primarch. Blood Angels essentially have a different faith than other marines, the Strength through Blood ethos. They are not devout as you would say the Sisters of Battle are, but they are faithful in their own way.



> If he's a psychic manifestation, why does he have artificier armor, grenades, and a jump pack? I say he's a marine that is in the thrall of the black rage. Either he's that original Sanguinary Guard guy, or possibly he's what happens when a powerfull psycher or leader goes into black rage. I think the idea of having multiple Dantes is a juicy story and has lots of implications and plot possibilities. Much more than just chaulking it up to the warp.


If he is a psychic manifestation you can only create what you know so to stands to reason he would have the normal equipment you imagine. He also cannot be a marine in in the thrall of the Black Rage as he speaks to people. He could be Azkeallon but that would make him over 10,000 years old and wouldn't really explain why he acts like he does.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Why don't Imperial Fists have an Avatar of Dorn, or the Ultramarines an Avatar of Roboute, or the Raven Guard an Avatar of Corax, I just question that all of a sudden the Blood Angels are so much more devout than other marine chapters that they can manifest an actual entity. Heck why doesn't every marine manifest an avatar of the Emperor, or is every chapter not as devout to the Emperor that the Blood Angels supposedly are of Sanguinius.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I just explained that. 



C:Blood Angels said:


> Blood Angels are unique amongst Space Marines in that deeply engrained in thier gene-seed is the encoded experience of their Primarch, and most deeply imprinted of all is the memory of Sanguinius' final battle with Horus.





C:Blood Angels said:


> Blood Angels are unique amongst Space Marines in that deeply engrained in thier gene-seed is the encoded experience of their Primarch





C:Blood Angels said:


> Blood Angels are unique amongst Space Marines





C:Blood Angels said:


> Blood Angels are unique


That should clear it up for you.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

> Why don't Imperial Fists have a an Avatar of Dorn, or the Ultramarines an Avatar of Roboute, or the Raven Guard an Avatar of Corax, I just question that all of a sudden the Blood Angels are so much more devout than other marine chapters that they can manifest an actual entity. Heck why doesn't every marine manifest an avatar of the Emperor, or is every chapter not as devout to the Emperor that the Blood Angels supposedly are of Sanguinius.


Very few chapter's even worship the Emperor. Most seem him as a great man, the greatest who ever lived and their figurative father, but a man never the less. 

The difference is no other Chapter has suffered the level of psychic trauma that the Blood Angels have at the death of their Primarch. No other chapter goes into a Black Rage like state. No other chapter had their Primarch suffer under a psychic assault from chaos god infused Horus. The Blood Angel's chapter cult venerates Sanguinius much more than the average. To most chapters it's a deep veneration and respect, the Blood Angels very much worship Sanguinius. So yes they are different/ in a unique set of circumstances. 



jaysen said:


> All jump packs are physics defying, as are "plasma generators", the aerodynamics of most imperial flyers, etc... Let's not bring reality into this.
> 
> I'm saying, it could be a large deception / hoax, created to hide the truth and therefore maintain morale. There's lots and lots of ways to explain how knowledge and experience could be passed on to a successor leader.
> 
> If he's a psychic manifestation, why does he have artificier armor, grenades, and a jump pack? I say he's a marine that is in the thrall of the black rage. Either he's that original Sanguinary Guard guy, or possibly he's what happens when a powerfull psycher or leader goes into black rage. I think the idea of having multiple Dantes is a juicy story and has lots of implications and plot possibilities. Much more than just chaulking it up to the warp.


But no other jump packs have the power to lift a BloodThirster. Seriously, it's supernatural. 

He has artifcer armour, and grenades because those are game items designed for game balance. I highly doubt a Blood Angel has ever seen the Sanguinor throw a few frags. 

Don't you think that the chapter would notice that Dante suddenly looked or acted different. It all seems very elaborate and to be frank had absolutely no basis in the fluff. 

You still havn't explained how he just appears or gets from world to world if he's just some marine. Or indeed how he is capable of such supernatural feats. Why do we need some conspiracy for the sake of a conspiracy?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Basically Blood Angels are heretics then and need to be destroyed, if they can summon something from the warp then they are daemon worshippers


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Basically Blood Angels are heretics then and need to be destroyed, if they can summon something from the warp then they are daemon worshipped


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Here's the Sanquinor -


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

jaysen said:


> I say he's a marine that is in the thrall of the black rage. Either he's that original Sanguinary Guard guy, or possibly he's what happens when a powerfull psycher or leader goes into black rage. I think the idea of having multiple Dantes is a juicy story and has lots of implications and plot possibilities. Much more than just chaulking it up to the warp.


I think you`re so wrapped up in your own fancies that you can`t see (or accept) the plainly superior explanations repeatedly heaped before you.


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## presc1ence (May 23, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Here's the Sanquinor -


This!

It is the only way I can see that the could possibly reconcile that the BA are summoning a daemon all the time.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I don't see how the BA could be accused of doing it on purpose. The Sanguinor seems to have its own designs and motives, not just those that echo the needs of the Astartes and their Commanders on any given battlefield.
But still, the Imperium already _is_ a bit concerned about what's going on here. Those members of the Inquisition who know about the Sanguinor are concerned precisely because of the problems that have been mentioned in this thread; for all of their seeming loyalty and devotion, what if the Chapter actually has fallen to some insidious warpery, the Battle Brothers irrevocably treading to damnation and possibly carrying the Imperium with them? What would that say about Dante? How would the High Lords react to discovering that such a revered and worshiped Chapter Master is actually an enemy of Humanity in unknowing disguise: how would the Imperium deal with this without shattering itself into pieces?
Then again, it might just be that the Saguinor os a 'normal' Astartes. What if Azkellon recruits the greatest of the Sanguinary Guard, having them listed as KIA, much as Mortarion did with the Deathshroud? That would give an explanation for the Sanguinor being able to be in seperate locations with no way to be there. Over time, how great would these warriors be, what relics of the Great Crusade may they be gifted with to allow them to seem beyond the enhanced mortality of their once-Battlebrothers?

GFP


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Rems said:


> Very few chapter's even worship the Emperor. Most seem him as a great man, the greatest who ever lived and their figurative father, but a man never the less.


I know this has come up a few times before but where does it say this, in official terms, in print? 
I know the old realms of chaos book 'the lost and the damned' says the opposite, there is a paragraph that explains how the Astartes rituals and rites relating to their Primarchs and the Emperor have evolved into religious acts of reverence to the God Emperor. 
It may be old fluff but as far as I am aware it hasn't been retcon'd yet so surely it still stands.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

In Index Astartes 2, the Chaplains segment. Page 56 specifically. 



> Their ideology features fundamental theological differences from the teachings of the Ecclesiarchy. The main point of contention between the Space marines and the Ecclesiarchy is in how they perceive the Emperor. to the Ecclesiarchy the emperor is a god, the most divine being, and Savior of Mankind and its eternal guardian. *The Space Marines revere the Emperor as a brilliant, inspired man, but a man nonetheless.* This forms a major schism between the two organisations.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

It is, of course, both. You have Chapters like the Black Templars who are fanatical adherents to the Imperial Cult; you have Chapters like the Ultramarines who have the view that you show above, Rems.
Where I read this (if I actually _did_ read this and didn't imagine it!) I don't know, but I'm sure there is some fluff that suggests that Chapters formed in early Foundings are more likely to have a 'secular' view (for want of a better word), whilst Chapters formed in later Foundings are more likely to view the Emperor as a god. There doesn't seem to be a correlation between Primogenitors and Successors, either. 
Another inkle of a memory is that it might be caused by the fact that the Imperial Cult is so widespread that even worlds that produce the best Astartes initiates are religious before the Astartes start using their men.

GFP


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I haven't seen any evidence of the Black Templars being fanatical adherents to the Imperial Cult, or rather the Emperor's Godhood. Zealous and puritanical, yes, but i don't recall any fluff which explicitly states that the Templars worship the Emperor as a god. 

Some chapters do, but it's very rare.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Rems said:


> I haven't seen any evidence of the Black Templars being fanatical adherents to the Imperial Cult, or rather the Emperor's Godhood. Zealous and puritanical, yes, but i don't recall any fluff which explicitly states that the Templars worship the Emperor as a god.
> 
> Some chapters do, but it's very rare.


But have you seen any evidence that they don't?
Bearing in mind what it says in Lost and Damned and the fact that pretty much the whole driving force for the Imperium in 40K is the divinity of the Emperor, I would say that they do worship the Emperor until it is explicitly stated otherwise. 
The whole Imperium is held together by a belief in the God Emperor, the greatest heroes and defenders of that Empire are a bunch of genetically enhanced atheist super soldiers?
The modern day image of the Astartes is that they are warrior monks, pretty hard to be a monk without some sort of religion. The ideals that they were created for have grown and evolved over 10K years since the Heresy into the different religions that now exist in 40K, from the religious fanaticism of the SOB to the warrior cults of the Astartes. They are expressed in different ways but they all stem back to the Emperor being a God.

Edit- I didn't see the earlier post, sorry. so discount some of what is written above.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

In any debate the burden of proof rests on those trying to prove something, not those disproving it. That's how debates and theories work. As it is there is an absence of evidence that the Black Templars worship the Emperor, like many Space Marines. 

The Astartes have a different perspective than the rest of the Imperium. They have traditions and origins stretching back to when the Imperium was founded, when the Emperor was considered a man and was up and about. Furthermore they have a somewhat (tenous though it by, and really symbolic) biological link to the Emperor and more importantly the Primarchs. When you have actual accounts of the Emperor, his sons etc you're going to be less likely to see him as divine. 

That said i'm sure there are some who do, particularly of the later foundings. If i recall correctly i think the Blood Ravens for one, worship the Emperor.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> I think you`re so wrapped up in your own fancies that you can`t see (or accept) the plainly superior explanations repeatedly heaped before you.


No, I agree that the written fluff does hint at the same flacid explanations that have been aired here. My point is that those explanations do not go with the historical fluff of the Blood Angels. Like was said a few posts back, it would make the chapter into heretics and daemon summoners.

I'm not saying I can come up with a better explanation that explains all possibilities. I'm pleading with GW to not ruin my army by making them into something that they have never been in previous editions. Blood Angels are space marines. They don't need the supernatural. They don't need warp entities or daemons or uber abilities. They are the Emperor's finest.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

jaysen said:


> *I'm pleading with GW to not ruin my army by making them into something that they have never been in previous editions.*


I play tyranids and necrons. Last edition, tyranids went from being a straightforward point and click army to being an army of finesse and synergy. Many tyranid players (mostly competitive wingers) packed up and left for a "better" army, but I and many like minded individuals simply adapted our playing style. What kind of tyranid player can`t adapt? As far as I`m concerned nids are better represented now than they`ve ever been. 

Now necrons. Up until now, they have been depicted as soulless shambling automatons that are slaved to the will of malevolent star borne gods. That has now been turned on its head, with the necrons being retconned into self aware ancient kings of a dormant empire and it is the star gods in turn who are now the slaves. I noticed a lot of people in a hissy fit over this, saying it ruined the feel of necrons as villains. Ironically, I noticed that some of these people _*were not even necron players!*_ They were simply GW classical purists, unwilling to accept that things are changing and crying incessantly. 


Now, I by no means intend this as a personal attack against you. I accept that there are multiple opinions and that there will always be someone to disagree with me. Personally, I always anticipate new codexes regardless of whether I play the army or not. Recent editions such as BA and GK have pushed the limits of established lore, but on the whole they have not been in any way detrimental to the hobby for those with the right mindset. 

So my point? Things are going to change whether you like it or not. The easiest solution is to accept this and save yourself a lot of tears and frustration.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

I guess where I dissagree with you Serpion5, is that you tend to quote books and look at popular opinion and say "Thou must agree." I've read through the codex and believe it leaves the Sanguinor wide open to interpretation and story telling. The ability to use your own imagination and creativity is what makes this hobby interesting. Nowhere does it say what the Sanguinor is. It only says that there are theories amongst some in the Imperium.

So, a logical explanation is just as valid as the fantastical ones that are only hinted at in the codex.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

jaysen said:


> I guess where I dissagree with you Serpion5, is that you tend to quote books and look at popular opinion and say "Thou must agree."


Far from it. I disagree with plenty of popular opinions. The Emperor ascending to godhood, necrons being exclusively soulless, Grey Knights being unable to wield Daemon weapons... I disagree with all of these and more. 



> I've read through the codex and believe it leaves the Sanguinor wide open to interpretation and story telling. The ability to use your own imagination and creativity is what makes this hobby interesting. Nowhere does it say what the Sanguinor is. It only says that there are theories amongst some in the Imperium.
> 
> So, a logical explanation is just as valid as the fantastical ones that are only hinted at in the codex.


As true as this is, you must eventually acknowledge the probability that you will be proved wrong. 

In the past for example, it was believed that the Damned Legionnaires originated from a cursed founding. The novel _The Chapters Due_ depicts them as the spirits of deceased astartes, in that case being deceased ultramarines. Will your opinion change when the Sanguinor is featured in a BA novel (if he hasn`t been already) and is depicted as being supernatural beyond doubt? 

I approach these things as open mindedly as I can without being too fanciful. But I also like to think that the simplest explanation is often the one that makes the most sense.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Well.

I had this nice post going where I quoted a number of novels that had First Founding Chapters referring to a God-Emperor. And then I accidentally went to a different website from here... and lost it all.

Suffice to say:

*White Scars*
In "Hunt for Voldorius", Kor'sarro Khan refers to the Emperor as "God Emperor".

*Space Wolves*
Ragnar Blackmane refers to the Emperor as "God Emperor" more than once throughout the Omnibus. The knowledge-machines that perform his indoctrination impart to him artificial memories of the Emperor being a god on Terra.

*Imperial Fists*
"Space Marine" certainly included religious belief as part of Chapter doctrine, but many would consider said book to be outdated, I suppose.

*Blood Angels*
James Swallow's novels have Rafen and co. referring to the Emperor as "God Emperor".

*Ultramarines*
"Nightbringer" has Uriel Ventris' Company worshipping the "God Emperor". "Warriors of Ultramar" has Tiberius making reference to a "God Emperor".

Initially I thought that this might have to do with the novels' release dates/time being written, which preceded the Index Astartes article that has been quoted (regarding the Chaplains and secular - not religious - beliefs that go against the Imperial Creed).

But "Fall of Damnos", which came out just a short while ago again shows large numbers of Ultramarines shouting affirmation to a "God Emperor". Take that for what you will.

*Raven Guard*
Both the renegade Ardaric Vaanes (in "Dead Sky Black Sun") and Captain Kayvaan Shrike (in "Hunt for Voldorius") make reference to a "God Emperor".

So that's six (five if you don't count "Space Marine" by Ian Watson) First Founding Chapters who refer to the Emperor as "God". That was initially surprising to me, to be honest. It made me wonder if this was another case of inconsistencies between the folks writing game fluff for GW and the BL authors.

But then, consider that, going as far back as 2nd Edition, the game focused on Chaplains remaining independent from the Imperial Creed, while also making reference to sacred psalms, etc. In that sense, it and the newest (5th edition Codex) fluff - which, again mostly focuses just on the Chaplains' cults remaining independent from the Imperial Creed - aren't that far apart.

In that sense, the 3rd edition information (including the Index Astartes article on Chaplains) on the Emperor being held up "merely" as the greatest man might be the anomaly. It's also worth mentioning that that very same IA article states:

_"The Emperor is recognised as their founder and the saviour of Humanity, but is most often regarded as an awe-inspiring man by the Adeptus Astartes. Some Chapters worship their Primarch as a god or demi-god, while others praise them as superior, yet mortal beings, mighty heroes from an age long past."_

So it might be a strange twist that most of the First Founding Chapters* have religious beliefs regarding the Emperor, but it's not unfeasible.

* Where the Ultramarines are concerned, consider how their view of the Codex Astartes is not basically the opposite of what Guilliman intended in the "Age of Darkness" collection.

Cheers,
P.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Ah the wonderful inconsistencies of 40k fluff. Still, with overwhelming evidence like that i'm willing to admit that yes it seems, a lot of Astartes do in fact worship the Emperor. I don't like it but i'll accept it. 

@Serpion Does Chapter's Due really feature the Legion of the Damned and explicitly state them to be deceased spirits? That's a loss. I rather liked the cursed founding, Fire Hawks interpretation, which seems to be the one the actual codex uses but oh well.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Rems,

There are certain First Founding Chapters I was willing to accept as potential worshippers, but I, too, was disappointed by how many (and which ones) were revealed to be thus.

Blood Angels? Sure. Imperial Fists? OK, it goes with their zaniness. The Space Wolves I had no problem with, since I pictured it more or less like Conan's Crom worship from the movie (as in, irreverent, more or less unstructured).

But White Scars, Raven Guard, Ultramarines? That caught me off guard.

Cheers,
P.


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## Deneris (Jul 23, 2008)

Rems said:


> Ah the wonderful inconsistencies of 40k fluff. Still, with overwhelming evidence like that i'm willing to admit that yes it seems, a lot of Astartes do in fact worship the Emperor. I don't like it but i'll accept it.
> 
> @Serpion Does Chapter's Due really feature the Legion of the Damned and explicitly state them to be deceased spirits? That's a loss. I rather liked the cursed founding, Fire Hawks interpretation, which seems to be the one the actual codex uses but oh well.


_Chapter's Due_ only portrays the spirit of ONE Ultramrine joining their ranks. The bulk of the Legion could still very well be the Fire Hawks.

And getting back to topic- Couldn't the Sanguinor simply be an ancient BA hero (Even the oft-mentionned survivor of Sanguinious's retinue) stuck in a Drago-like existence? Spit out, temporarily, by the Warp to help the BAs... Then sucked back into to be Drago's Eye of Terror Road Trip drinking buddy? Who knows... maybe there's dozens or hundreds of Space Marine heroes that the Chaos powers "play" with in such a way? Think of the 4 gods as M:TG gathering players, and each has their own deck of "monsters" and other doo-hickies...


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

If you get the Living Saints of the Sororitas, then there is certainly scope for all sorts of shenanigans when it comes to souls and warriors.
The SoB's Acts of Faith show that there is _somethibg_, call it the God-Emperor if you want, that is responsive to the prayers and actions given up in its name. I would reckon that this can, in turn, be added to by the associated thoughts and actions that aren't part of the prayer, but related to it. Maybe as a particular warrior falls, they can become a temporary focus of wants, needs, desires and sheer-bloody-minded-denial-that-that-person-can-fall; somehow this is added to by the God-Emperor and the soul is 'diverted' from death to something... else.
So, a SoB might rise again as a Living Saint. An Astartes might, if too badly wounded, might find his essence given a new way to keep fighting as part of the LotD. Doubtless the ferocity of purpose and loyalty of the person will play a big part.

When it comes to the calling of the Emperor 'God' by unexpected folk, it wouldn't surprise me if whilst there are those who say it and mean what it says, there are others for who it is a shorthand term that more easily encapsulates there awe, reverence and desire to serve. You can't really get much higher in rank and meaning than a God Emperor, can you?!

GFP


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Remember that all those novels are written by novelists... who might not be fluff experts, themselves. They have to sell books, not maintain fluff. The idea of the strong being humbled, of dark secrets, of chaos overtaking the honorable, these are the scandals that sell books. They don't have to use common sense, science, or logic. They're artists.

I, for one, do not accept half the crap that's in the novels. I try to stick with the codices and official fluff books, first. The novels are one artist's interpretation and, like someone here said, have several inconsistencies. 

So, will I agree that the Sanguinor is a warp being created by the collective conscience of the Blood Angels if it is finally proven? Not until they pry it from my cold dead fingers. The day they prove that the Blood Angels are heretics is the day I sell my minis and go play war machine.

Plus, how do you "prove" fantasy? All I have to do is create my own successor chapter and choose to ignore the crap fluff and characters I don't like. I'll call them the "9th Legion Astartes".


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

GW have said themselves that the novels are canon unless retconned. 

Chapters Due only features one Damned Legionnaire specifically named as an ultramarine true, so it can be argued that any others can join their ranks as well. It still offers little explanation for their origins as a whole, so cursed founding still works just fine. 

Jaysen, the Sanguinor being a warp entity does not in any way mean it has to be a willing practice by the BA themselves. It could be an unexpected by product of their beliefs, it could be Draigo like scenario with Azkaellon, or it could be a facet of the Emperor`s Will reviving a fallen hero to fight again and again ala Living Saint. 

It does not make the BA heretics, it does not make them warpcraft users. Why does it offend you so to have the BA fluff expanded so?


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Maybe so, but it never says that the Sanguinor is a warp entity or psychic projection. It only says that some believe it so. How many times do I have to say that? As many people here have said, it doesn't make sense that one chapter could have this ability to create a flesh and blood uber warrior out of warp stuff, but no other chapter or primarch or even the emperor has ever done this. Well, except for chaos space marines, that is.

So, to put it bluntly, it is NOT canon that the Sanguinor is a warp entity or psychic projection. It's just as likely that he is a flesh and blood Space Marine.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Relax man. We`re just going in circles now. Believe what you have to to enjoy the game yes? :good:


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

jaysen said:


> So, to put it bluntly, it is NOT canon that the Sanguinor is a warp entity or psychic projection. It's just as likely that he is a flesh and blood Space Marine.


No it's not, the Sanguinor does impossible things, appears and disappears at random. No flesh and blood Space Marine could pile-drive the Ka'Bandha, who bested Sanguinus at one point, noted as being the first among khornes servants, heir to power easily thrice that of others of his kind. It's stated that Ka'Bandha Axe was so powerful no mortal weapon, no matter how much of a relic could withstand it's might, yet he shattered that same Axe on The Sanguinor. The blow propelled the Sanguinor through a wall but he was otherwise unharmed. What this is tell me is that whatever the Sanguinor has, it is not of mortal ken. 

As soon as you apply any kind of Occam's razor to this the very first thing that must go each time is the notion that The Sanguinor is just a Marine in a fancy suit.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Anyone can have a good dice role. A 5+ invulnerable is just as good as a 2+ when you role a 6.

Occam's razor would say that the Sanguinor is most likely a myth. If it's a psychic power, then it would be the result of psychers. There are several known psychic shooting attacks that take on visual forms in the eyes of witnesses. That would be the simplest explanation. Dreaming up some Warp Entity that has no precedent and appears even when no powerfull psycher is present is definitely not a simple explanation. Unless, you are talking about the simplicity of imagination and lazyness of the author.

A much more likely explanation is that Matt Ward wanted to appease the many complaints that space marines had no uber characters, equal to avatars or daemon princes. He came up with a stat line, then spent about 15 minutes writing some thin and unexplained fluff.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Right, fuck this










Abandon Thread!


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

I think it's down to everyone trying to have the last word.


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## Callistarius (Aug 17, 2010)

Before the retcon, the old Angels of Death codex had Dante as chapter master for 1100 years, not just 1100 years old. That was when they really introduced the vampiric aspect to the Blood Angels, hell Mephiston had the same stat line and abilities as a Warhammer Vampire Lord. 

From memory, the AoD codex mentioned that BAs had more psychic potential that other chapters, due to Sanguinius' ability of foresight (which I don't really recall being mentioned in later codicii). AoD made specific mention that he knew that Horus would kill him, which made his staying true to the Emperor more remarkable.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

"Sanguinius' foreboding of his own fate led him to insist that his Herald, Azkaellon, remain on Terra so that should the worst befall, the Sanguinary Guard would not be extinguished, and could be reconstituted to serve as a beacon of hope in the dark days ahead."

"Ultimately, it was Azkaellon, sole survivor of the Sanguinary Guiard, who drove the Blood Angel's destiny onwards. Arguing that of all the questions facing the Legion, how it should henceforth be ordered for battle was by far the least of their concerns, Azkaellon oversaw the division of the mighty Blood Anels Legion into the Chapers that endure today... What became of Azkaellon himself after this point is unrecorded, but his legacy lives on in the Chapters he created."

These are the quotes that give rise to the belief that the Sanguinor is truely Azkaellon, preserved and blessed by the Primarch and the Emperor. This is just one of the theories included in the newest codex. Further credence is given to this theory by the fact that the Sanguinor's armor and gear match that of the Sanguinary Guard, in that he carries a Glaive Encarmine, golden artificier armor, and the unique SG type jump pack with wings.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Callistarius said:


> Before the retcon, the old Angels of Death codex had Dante as chapter master for 1100 years, not just 1100 years old. That was when they really introduced the vampiric aspect to the Blood Angels, hell Mephiston had the same stat line and abilities as a Warhammer Vampire Lord.
> 
> From memory, the AoD codex mentioned that BAs had more psychic potential that other chapters, due to Sanguinius' ability of foresight (which I don't really recall being mentioned in later codicii). AoD made specific mention that he knew that Horus would kill him, which made his staying true to the Emperor more remarkable.


This is all still true in the current codex. 

I don't think anyone is disputing that the Sanguinor could be Azkaellon preserved and powered by either Sanguinius and or the Emperor. But then in that case he's still not a marine in some fancy armour. He's more like a Living Saint or Dragoish existance.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Agreed, Aramoro.

I want to throw a quick inject in.

Matt Ward catches a lot of shit for his fluff. C'est la vie, everyone's a critic. At the end of the day, though, I think the vitriol comes unnecessarily.

First and foremost, the man has to balance a level of artistic license and quality with the priorities of selling a product. Where that's concerned, let's face it: 40k is not the easiest milieu to write game fluff for.

Demand drives the product. Where this topic is concerned, people really like the Blood Angels - enough for a new Codex to come out. How would those same players react if Codex: Blood Angels was released with no new information, characters, units, etc.? Would they do so positively?

We can criticize how the new inclusions turned out, but I don't think we can do the same for the effort itself and be fair about it. Full disclosure: I might be in the definite minority here, but I don't have nearly as hard a time accepting Ward's fluff as do many others.

I mean, where the Ultramarines are concerned, I honestly think that people are betraying their own personal choices and favoritism. Fact of the matter, though, is that 2/3 of the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes are descended from the Ultramarines, and thus is probably stands to reason that the majority of them DO look up to their Primogenitors and hold up Marneus Calgar as a sort of "spiritual father".

And why wouldn't they be the poster boys of the Imperium? They are probably the closest thing to mainstream idealists among the Astartes. Where the other Primogenitors and their descendants are concerned, you have (A) secretive, aloof monk-knights; (B) barbaric, ritually scarred warriors; (C) barbaric, possibly mutated wolf-men; (D) warriors rumored to consume blood and kill their allies; (E) mechanical men who seem to loath or even hate normal Humans; (F) mutants with glowing eyes. Oh, and by the way, Chapters descended from them are more of the same... _or even worse._

And hey, if you're a Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, etc., player and you hate how the Ultramarines are made out to be these lauded heroes (even though in-game this makes perfect sense), rejoice: you probably feel just like a Space Wolf, Blood Angel, etc., feels when the Ultramarine gets all the love and awe, and you get the scared sideways look.

Where the supernatural nature of the Sanguinor is concerned, did as much of an uproar come up when Codex: Witch Hunters had a no-shit flying saint around - who didn't just show up at times of great need, but actually was a constant presence during a Crusade and numerous wars of faith? The Blood Angels have long been defined by their psychic connection with their Primarch... the same connection that played a role in the Red Thirst and the Black Rage perpetuating for almost as long as they've been around. Yes, the Sanguinor was something new, but it wasn't something made of whole cloth - not when the concepts of "saints" and "warp manifestations" and "psychic connections" have been around for a while.

And finally, Draigo. Seriously, without being rude, people need to be objective about the things they read and differentiate between what is written as *known fact* and what is written as *legend* or conjecture. None of the "And Draigo smote the city walls and left the Lord of Change buried there" stuff is stated as if some Grey Knights chronicler was following him around. Who knows where the story came from?

Could Draigo have beaten up six Daemonettes at some point, though? Hell yeah! Could he have beaten up a Lord of Change? Difficult (even more so where the Bloodthirster is concerned)... but not impossible, going by their stat-lines. It's the extraneous details that you need to take with a grain of salt.

Cheers,
P.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Agreed, Aramoro.
> 
> I want to throw a quick inject in.
> 
> ...


:goodpost:

About time someone else didn't jump on the 'lolmattward' bandwagon.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Phoebus said:


> Agreed, Aramoro.
> 
> I want to throw a quick inject in.
> 
> ...


You forgot the Imperial Fists :/


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

And, to be fair, the Raven Guard. I purposefully left them out for two reasons:

1. They're not as screwed up, physically or psychologically (well, in the Fists' case only if you ignore Ian Watson's material - which I thought was great) as the other Primogenitors. In that sense, there's no reason to lump them in with quasi-mutants and anti-social miscreants.

2. There aren't nearly as many of them as the Ultramarines, therefore they could never have as much clout.

Cheers,
P.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

The only reason is because of their heroic defence of Terra. Who are the mutants with glowing eyes? The Salamanders? I would of said the Raven Guard are mutants as well, due in nature to their white skin and black eyes, very evil looking, see many slaanesh models with similar features.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

The physical flaws of the Raven Guard could easily be found on any number of worlds with unusual conditions. Glowing eyes and jet-black skin? Wolf features? Not so much.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

When did Salamanders get glowing eyes? I only thought they where just normal black marines.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

For as long as I remember reading about them, honestly.

The "Tome of Fire" trilogy of novels makes reference to the eyes being a mutation/defect that the Salamanders refer to as Vulkan's legacy, IIRC.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Actually the whole pitch black, glowing red eyes is relatively recent. It started in the 5th ed codex and has since featured in all their novels. Before that they were just 'black' (as in they had a darker skin colour).


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I am a victim of retcon indoctrination!


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Hang your head in shame Sir! 

The 5th ed codex added a lot of strange fluff, sadly. Retconning is a relentless process, one day something might even be changed for the better. 

Back on topic, I wouldn't say the Blood Angels are Heretics per say, they're certainly not actively cavorting with daemons and consciously summoning warp entities. If Sanguinor is a warp manifestation or what have you (as i think is more than likely) then it's most likely a latent thing, much like the Black Rage or Red Thirst. Which are already pretty damming to be honest.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

The Red Thirst and the Black Rage were not deviant enough to prevent the Lords of Terra from deciding to make more BA successor chapters in at least the 2nd and 21st foundings.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Yes but the greater Imperium doesn't know about the Black Rage or Red Thirst in any great detail. All they know of is the blood Angels reputation for savagery and close combat, their instability in battle and disquieting rumours about disappearing persons drained of blood. They have no idea that the Blood Angels suffer psychic trauma in the form of the Black Rage and relive Sanguinius' death.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

So Sang was a favoured son of the Emperor, 2nd only to Horus who betrayed the Emperor. . . therefore Sang is the favourite, the emperor let him die. . . Emperor owes him and his sons a big one.

The sons have the Primarchs blood put in to them to create them and to get them going.

Sang was a bad ass psyker so it makes sense the kids are right|

A Chaos Demon saw a BA company go ape shit mental on a traitor legion and thought they were epic so let them live.

Mephiston is a Demon Prince, check the stat line, also no man survives a hive city landing on them i don’t care how bad arse you are.

To conclude, they are a completely mental direct descendent of the favoured son of a god, yeah one of them at some point has done something to get the two really powerful psykers to give them a hand every now and then. Compared to what the chaos entities (and I don’t mean the gods here) do in the ‘real world’ it ain’t much.


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