# night lords vs ultramarines



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

So I've been curious, let's say the night lords pre HH were pitted against the ultra marines. Both legions at their strongest and led by their respective primarchs, this is an all out war till only 1 legion is left standing.

Which legion do you think would be victorious and for what reasons?

1. In an army versus army battle

2. In a parimarch vs primarch battle at the height of the war.

Additional Note: the night lords are given an equal ammount of marines to match the the ums, so quantity is no longer a factor. - added 4-30-2010 7:55am.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think Night Lords would win, due to their ability to strike fear and disorganization of their foes, whereas Ultramarines rely on their ability to remain organized to win. 

Primarch vs, Primarch.... this would be difficult as there only only singular accounts of each. I know fulgrim has been known to be pretty good and even questioned whether he feared him as guilleman lost to him. I don't believe he killed Alpahrius. Dorn is a respectible primarch and the fact that Konrad Curze almost killed him makes me put Konrad over Roboute.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Space Marines don't feel fear so Night Lords wouldn't really have much of a shtick to go on. Both legions at their strongest mean a lot more Ultramarines than Night Lords. 

Aramoro


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The Ultramarines without a doubt, they're larger than the Night Lords by a great amount- all the fear in the world won't stop a Legion at least twice your size pounding you into the dust.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I believe space marines still feel and experience fear for all it is, if primarchs can feel fear then I would think space marines can...

I imagined the nightlords using strategic strikes on the UM's large home system to disrupt their reinforcement routes, recruitment worlds, production worlds. With the nightlords being a smaller more mobile and tactically sized army, they could more effeciently precision hit the ums, perhaps konrad and his elite of elites could attempt an assassination the um primarch, chain of command.g


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

All space marines are psycho-conditioned so they cannot feel fear, they don't even know what fear is. 

The Night Lords could run hit and run operations trying to take the Ultras down piece meal but Roboute is supposed to be a tactical genius so eventually the Night Lords would be forced to fight a stand up battle and be crushed with the fist of an angry god.

Aramoro


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Night Lords would be pounded into the dirt. Simple. 

Primarch vs primarch..... Not sure but I want to say papa smurf. Lol


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I'll add my voice to the general consensus. In a full-scale war between the entirety of the VIII and XIII Legions, theres really no doubt that the Ultramarines would triumph. For the general reason that the Ultramarines Legion vastly outnumbered the Night Lords.

In a personal duel between Night Haunter and Guilliman though, im more inclined to assume Curze would triumph.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

What if it was the night lords were given and equal number of marines to match the ums? So quantity is no longer a factor.

I edited the op and time stamped the additional note. Changed it so nl's are given equal marines to match the ums, so quantity is no longer a variable.


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## daxxglax (Apr 24, 2010)

Night Lords. Ultramarines don't feel fear and are high;ly disciplined, plus there's so many of them. But that's only good if the Night Lords decide to go with them head-to-head, and we all know the Night Lords play by their own rules. They're more flexible and use the shadows to their advantage, which is typically how you'd beat a larger, more organized foe.

I recall a scene in Lord of the Night where Sahaal (A Night Lord), must fight over 100 armed and armored Arbiters. Now, of course he's a lightning-claw wielding, devilishly fast, incredibly strong, battle hardened Astartes, but he starts off losing... badly. Then he shatters the light, and those Arbiters are in for some serious blood and screaming. This is how the Night Lords fight; while under normal conditions, they may not be the equal of such a foe, but then they make the conditions abnormal and break the rules, a tactic that would work well against the uptight Ultramarines.


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## grimdarkness (Apr 19, 2010)

Legion vs. Legion in equal numbers- gotta go with the UM, the best the NL can hope for is to fight them to a standstill.
Primarch vs. Primarch- hard to say, but i lean towards Curze personally, but theres not alot to go on.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Even at equal numbers I would still tend to say Ultramarines. Night Lords specialise in murdering vastly inferior forces to their own in massively bloodly events. But when it comes down to fighting an actual war fighting people who are the same strength, speed, same abilities then Night Lord tactics lose a lot of their edge. Even Cruze himself, he murdered a lot of petty criminals and his legion massacred a lot of civilians but when it comes to face-punching for the Emperor the Ultramarines did it better than anyone else. Gulliman is supposed to be one of the best military minds of all the primarchs. So whilst the Night Lords would gain a lot of initial success he would surely be able to mastermind a counterattack. 

Aramoro


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

grimdarkness said:


> Legion vs. Legion in equal numbers- gotta go with the UM, the best the NL can hope for is to fight them to a standstill.


Whats your reasoning for that?

Generally speaking any versus scenario, depends on circumstance. The Night Lords are ruthless murderers, trained and indoctrinated into psychological warfare. Whilst its true that the Night Lords lose an element of their traditional methods when fighting automatons or other Astartes (as touched on briefly in _Soul Hunter_), it doesn't mean that psychological warfare as a whole is worthless in this circumstance.

Psychological warfare is also not the sole expertise of the Night Lords Legion. Stealth raids, Terror incursions, Raptor assaults, Hit-and-Run attacks are all tactics known to be used and mastered by the Night Lords. And considering they are still Astartes after all, they can still hold their own in conventional warfare. Take into account the Astartes versus Astartes combat we saw in _Soul Hunter_, the Night Lords held their own and triumphed against the Blood Angels for example.

The Ultramarines on the other hand are the pinnacle of organisation and rigid structure. Guilliman is a tactical genius and his Legion is ordered, disciplined and fearless. There is no conclusive answer that anyone can give to this question (which is the case in most of these infamous versus threads), such an engagement would rely almost entirely on circumstance and uncounted variables.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

What if I were to define the scenario more so? Would it be make it easier for a decisive victor?

Let's say the objective is for the nls to assassinate the um primarch who happens to be upon mccag. My question is, could kurze and his legion with surprise on their side, penetrate mccag and kill rob?

Kurze gets his entire legion, and prep time as well as the element of surprise. However the ums know the nls are hostile in this scenario so they don't just walk up to him they thiking the nls are friendly, but they are not expecting the assassination.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Are we assuming open warfare? Are the two locked in a conventional battle? If so the Night Lords would lose. Even with numerical superiority I would be inclined to say they would lose. In a conventional battle I would say that the Ultramarines battle and combat style holds a distinct advantage over the Nigh Lords. Just my opinion though.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

I would have to say Night Lords, mabye cause there one of my favourite legions :grin:, but also because they seem to be very ruthless, aggresive and murderous compared to the UM which as far as i know have no speciality except for organization and tactics.

Primarch vs Primarch..... meh.. Konrad Cruze with a doubt (100%), he is crazed and he could knock out Gulliman with a punch like he did to Dorn


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## grimdarkness (Apr 19, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Whats your reasoning for that?
> 
> Generally speaking any versus scenario, depends on circumstance. The Night Lords are ruthless murderers, trained and indoctrinated into psychological warfare. Whilst its true that the Night Lords lose an element of their traditional methods when fighting automatons or other Astartes (as touched on briefly in _Soul Hunter_), it doesn't mean that psychological warfare as a whole is worthless in this circumstance.
> 
> ...


I was asuming it would be a straight up fight, with neither side having any particular senario/terrain advantage. I think in those (all be it unlikely) circumstances the NL wouldn't be able to overcome the UM superior tactical ability. but as you say there is no conclusive answer. good point about 'Soul Hunter' though, had forgotten about that


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

If prep is involve then the NLs all the way. Thats what they do, pick their tagets, make a plan, execute, and melt away. Examples of their work include killing off the Navy Academy on a planet a mere 100 light years from Terra (the closest CSM attack I belive in the C:CSM 3.5) and left before any retaliation. After their Primarch was killed, the Legion continue to serve and thrive. What can the UMs do to them that will break them? Nothing really. UMs on the other hand need focuse and structure, something that hinders them against the masters of disruption and assassination.

Now Random match or straight up, UMs would likely win thanx to #s and tatics.

Konrad vs Guilliman, Cruz for the Majority. Hes Batman for fuks sake.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

As for the numbers issue warlock, I posted that the nl's would have equal numbers to the UM. I felt it would help balance the match up...


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> Space Marines don't feel fear so Night Lords wouldn't really have much of a shtick to go on. Both legions at their strongest mean a lot more Ultramarines than Night Lords.
> 
> Aramoro


How would you describe Dorn's fear of the unknown then? In the Lightning Tower Dorn admits his fear which Konrad Kurze coincidentally caused. There are some things that can still strike fear in the hearts of the space marines.

I mean... Dorn's hairs litteral went up when he found out what he was afraid of. I mean I can take a quote from A Thousand Sons to show that there is a presence of fear in the legions still. Are the astartes immune to being afraid in combat yes. But that is one type of fear. How about the fear about the type of warfare the Night Lords fight wars? Dorn describes it as something else. "Madness."



> "I still think of Kajor and shudder." _- Mortarion in A Thousand Sons page 328._


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Curze did knock the shit outa rogal dorn...you have to remember that.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> How would you describe Dorn's fear of the unknown then? In the Lightning Tower Dorn admits his fear which Konrad Kurze coincidentally caused. There are some things that can still strike fear in the hearts of the space marines.
> 
> I mean... Dorn's hairs litteral went up when he found out what he was afraid of.


Indeed. And there are also several examples throughout the Heresy Novels about Astartes feeling fear, Loken prominent amongst them.

The point is that Astartes are conditioned to feel no fear, to make them perfect warriors. But they are still human, no matter how aloof. It is possible for Astartes to feel fear, it just takes hell of a lot - thus it remains largely an alien emotion to them. And even if they do experiance it, it could often be unconscious or not provoke the same reactions as it would in ordinary humans (for example they probably wouldn't panic).


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

@ck
By the time a man became a marine he had gone through decades of psycho-indoctrination, mental training and the like to the point where fear is simply an alien concept to him. So really, it is not so much that they do not feel the sensation of fear… they simply don’t act on it or are even consciously aware of it. The point is they don’t panic which is what gives fear tactics their potency; panic causes the enemy to become disorientated, confused and then they make stupid decisions. Many of the primarchs, however, never went through that training so fear wouldn’t be nearly as alien of a concept for them. Regardless to that fact however, a primarch wouldn’t becomes panicked in a combat situation either. So the fact that Dorn got spooked by Curze really doesnt matter as far as combat goes. When combating other marines, I don’t see the Night Lords fear tactics being effective.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

You also forget though that there were many incidents in the Horus Heresy of astartes having the fear of losing their primarchs. In _A Thousand Sons_ for example when their primarch was about to get obliterated by the titan. Also the most fearsome legion of the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus where afraid of Horus succuming to his coma. 

If we take Dorn's account of being second to Horus in victories and his primary strategdy "to know the mind of his foes" then I would say that it did heavily effected his ability to fight the walls of Terra. Because of his fear, he could not let himself understand the warp minded way of Horus.

Astartes fight for ideals or substances greater than themselves which in turn possesses them of the fearless qualities. However, when those ideals or substances are taken away or destroyed, then what?

I could see the Night Lords cutting up people and using their terrorist tactics to slowly destroy the Realm of Ultramar. Statues desagrated or warped, Momentus building of history and pride burned down. I would say that the Ultramarines have a unique way of taking care of their realm. To see it all destroyed would devastate them.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Fear effects individuals and masses in a plethora of dimensions....though a marine may not panic, his thoughht processes, choices, perception of reality and his self, is altered. The night lords could induce fear in the ultramarines in a plethoa of ways, most notably by attacking their perception of what their identity is....renound, pride them self in bringing stability, order, peace to systems...worlds....and when that is shattered before them, they will be effected and that effect is more influential then losing half their legion in a fight, simply because they have no tangible means to objectively manipulate it. 

While the nightlords....who "understand" fear....do.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

You were asking about a battle not a long protracted military campaign. Aside from that, astartes live in battle. Fear may be in play but as far as their decision making abilities go not much would be effected. They are trained to fallow the codex in all things and there is a contingency plan for almost any scenario in that thing. 

@CK
I did not say that they could not feel fear, what I said was that its effect on their combat effectiveness would be negligible.


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## nate187 (Feb 2, 2009)

NL VS UM = UM laying the smack down crushing defeat!!!

Pappa Smurf vs Cruze aka Batman 40K = Pappa Smurf is just to straight forward and regimented to handle the Night Haunter. A very bad day for the Big Blue machine


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

My appologies, I some what meant to imply it would be a galactic wide war between them and which eliminate the opposing legion first, or render them defunct.

I was also curious at the thought of the nl's waging hit and run morally crippling attacks on many um worlds, even if not militarily important to the um, but to wound and shatter their empires sense of identity in being safe, cared for, harmonius.

Also such ideas as say Curze himself with a squad of his most elite followers, all equipped with their most powerful and effecient wargear to assassinate the Ultramarines Primarch...to disrupt their identity of unification and point of inspirational leadership.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Lux said:


> I was also curious at the thought of the nl's waging hit and run morally crippling attacks on many um worlds, even if not militarily important to the um, but to wound and shatter their empires sense of identity in being safe, cared for, harmonius.


Ahhh.... no. That fantasy went out the window with the tyranids and it really didn't effect them all that much.



Lux said:


> Also such ideas as say Curze himself with a squad of his most elite followers, all equipped with their most powerful and effecient wargear to assassinate the Ultramarines Primarch...to disrupt their identity of unification and point of inspirational leadership.


I doubt even the Night Lords would be capable of infiltrating Hera. But I suppose if you gave them almost every advantage you could possibly give them short of binding the their targets hands and feet……… yeah I guess they would win. :laugh: And if you didn't know he actually did "die"....... still waiting for them to throw down their weapons and assume the fetal position.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Well...for the assassination scheme, I was postulating that assassination would take place when the um's were engaged in battle or say defending multiple key worlds...kurze and his squad could attempt the assassination mid chaos.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well..... it is possible but unlikely. Guilliman would be surrounded by loyal troops so I doubt they could make it to him without being spotted.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

In most cases, an army that uses terror tactics, stealth, hit and run attacks and the like has won 9 out of 10 times in history. Even given their inferior numbers I have no doubt in my mind that the Night Lords would smack the Ultramarines down, kill them, and fuck the still twitching corpse. Especially given their specialized training in terror techniques and being on-par if not better than the Ultramarines in combat.

Read _The Art of War_ and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Oh, and please refrain from using Vietnam as an example. The NVA and VC had little to no training so of course they lost every battle. Only reason they "won" the Vietnam war was because 90% of the population supported the NVA.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Terror tactics in this case would be relatively ineffective. Stealth would be and so too would hit and run however the ultramarines would simply do the same thing. That is the problem with fighting ultimate adaptors; the codex plans for almost everything. 

Who used nam as a reference? lol And we lost nam because the US people were unwilling to make the sacrifices required for success.... even though it could be argued that the Tet Offensive
broke the back of the communist forces...... but that’s a different story. lol


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> Terror tactics in this case would be relatively ineffective. Stealth would be and so too would hit and run however the ultramarines would simply do the same thing. That is the problem with fighting ultimate adaptors; the codex plans for almost everything.
> 
> Who used nam as a reference? lol And we lost nam because the US people were unwilling to make the sacrifices required for success.... even though it could be argued that the Tet Offensive
> broke the back of the communist forces...... but that’s a different story. lol


 Well to have actually won out in Vietnam we would've had to of killed almost everyone in the country. I'm not saying anyone used it, I'm telling people not to as it's an invalid comparison.

In every instance that I've seen them the Ultra marines are a rather static fighting force. All the non-codex chapters use divers tactics while codex chapters are the rank and file. Jack of all trades, not the king of one.

The Ultramarines would do the same as the Night Lords... Except... The Night Lords do it better. Physically Space Marines are barely human but mentally, you can never get rid of fear completely. The panic factor is neutralized but other things caused by fear? Thinking "when will they hit us next?" almost 24/7. Even for a super warrior it would be demoralizing in the very least. Marines still feel fatigue, less than other humans and they can shut off half their brain but that only works for so long. Stress even is still a factor, even marines need "R n' R" which of course is impossible having to be on alert all the time.

In a conventional war the Ultramarines would trounce the Night Lords, but the Night Lords are anything but conventional fighters... Night Lords have it in the bag even being half the size.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The reason that the Ultramarines are usually static is because, for the most part, they are on the defensive..... its difficult to do hit and run defensive tactics when holding a hard point. 

Back to fight. IMO the best that the NL could hope to pull off would be a stalemate. They are good, don't get me wrong, but the Ultramarines are the most tactically versatile chapter. They adapt to almost everything and, just looking at Calgars exploits against the Eldar, they know exactly where a strike will be coming and when it will come. It just come down to Guilliman's sheer tactical genius.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> The reason that the Ultramarines are usually static is because, for the most part, they are on the defensive..... its difficult to do hit and run defensive tactics when holding a hard point.
> 
> Back to fight. IMO the best that the NL could hope to pull off would be a stalemate. They are good, don't get me wrong, but the Ultramarines are the most tactically versatile chapter. They adapt to almost everything and, just looking at Calgars exploits against the Eldar, they know exactly where a strike will be coming and when it will come. It just come down to Guilliman's sheer tactical genius.


 Well... Guilliman has also come off to me as being extremely arrogant. That really isn't something you want to do when fighting unconventional war.

Give me an example of Ultras being so "versatile"
How can you adapt to fight random hit and run attacks? The only way to counter that is to do the same yourself. Of course we have to look at who's better at unconventional warfare? The Night Lords, that's who... The Ultras can build their trenches and they can hide but it only delays the inevitable.

The Ultramarines ARE a static force, and static forces are notoriously good at losing battles against a flexible army. The Ultramarines are fucked even with Night Lords at half their number, not to mention the thread now states that the Night Lords have the same numbers in this scenario.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

They're not the static force, that would be either the IW or the IF. It was what they were known for during the great crusade are still known for..... although it is used to a lesser extent now since the majority of the combat they see is defensive in nature. 

To adapt to hit and run tactics one option is total war, you destroy everything. Another option would be to move in large groups, don't give them anything soft enough to hit and if they take the bait and go after it with a large force us a redundant hard point tactic to quickly bring in another large group. Force them to fight on your terms.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> To adapt to hit and run tactics one option is total war, you destroy everything. Another option would be to move in large groups, don't give them anything soft enough to hit and if they take the bait and go after it with a large force us a redundant hard point tactic to quickly bring in another large group. Force them to fight on your terms.


 It's called hit and run because you do just that. You come out of "nowhere" you hit by surprise, then you run. It's demoralizing since they don't know when it's coming and deadly since it comes by surprise. 

Mobilizing one large force to assist another large force quickly is... Difficult at best and takes far to much time since the point of a hit and run attack is to hit before you can respond with reinforcements. The only way to combat that is to move all of your troops into one area, and still you have the variable of focusing your fire onto the point of attack/defense. I'm also not including multiple attacks at the same time in this analysis either.

So saying, even if you could manage to move a large amount of troops to reinforce the other squadron, both could be attacked simotaneously therefor rendering that tactic useless.

"Arguing on the internet is like winning the Special Olympics, even if you win, you're still retarded." Just to represent the overall futility of this argument. Not to say I'm not enjoying it just a little bit. :victory:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well the point of hit and run is to deal a lot of damage to soft targets. That’s the point of the hard point method, nothing soft to hit. lol And yeah, this is rather enjoyable. :laugh:


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> Well the point of hit and run is to deal a lot of damage to soft targets. That’s the point of the hard point method, nothing soft to hit. lol And yeah, this is rather enjoyable. :laugh:


 Haha, be back tomorrow... Well technically later today.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

I'd have to say I'm with Noise Marine on this one, I think the Night Lords would win in the end. I just can't see them targeting only the enemy Marines, they would hit everyone and everything. they would cause massive amounts of panic a terror in the human populations of the worlds they were attacking, the Smurfs would have to not only deal with near endless hit and run attacks but also horrific civil unrest.
It would be demoralising for the Ultras to have to fight an enemy that flat refused to stand and fight and were so good at causing disruption and fear in civilian populations.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It nothing that they haven't dealt with in the past. Tyranids. Lol


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Theres no comparison between the Tyranids and the Night Lords. 
The Tyranids were essentially after food, there's a massive difference between eating the civilian population and intentionally going out of your way to terrify it. 
Theres a big difference between Johnny getting eaten by a bug and Johnny getting his head nailed the the floor and hid intestines turned into a fancy bow!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Civil panic was what I was going for. Tbh I would be more spooked by nids.

Like I said before, form hard points on the important worlds..... Let the rest die.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Forming hard points on important worlds while leaving the rest to their own means of survival, would be exactly what the nl's would desire the um's to do. Doing such a thing divides an empire, it divides armies who have a sense of loyalty to a system, a planet, a people whom they have based their sense of self and identity upon, in essence you force your soldiers to betray them self and that resentment towards their commanding officer and superstructure is never beneficial...


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Theres no comparison between the Tyranids and the Night Lords.
> The Tyranids were essentially after food, there's a massive difference between eating the civilian population and intentionally going out of your way to terrify it.
> Theres a big difference between Johnny getting eaten by a bug and Johnny getting his head nailed the the floor and hid intestines turned into a fancy bow!


Yeah the Bugs are creepy, but Nids are fought on mass scale and most Citizens have a good Idea of how bad they can be. They eat and roar. 

NLs have ways of torturing you and cause undesirable pain, as well as target and crush what you hold dear. Then you die. 

Hmmmm.... getting eaten by basic instincts dont seem to compare to Terror Tatics. 


gen.ahab said:


> Like I said before, form hard points on the important worlds..... Let the rest die.


So your going to give the NLs a staging ground, resources, and people to to recruit as throw away slaves?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It's what the imperium does in these situations. You cannot defend everything, to try and do so would be foolish. Sometimes you must cut off a limb to save the body. And lux..... Again this is a tactic the Ultramarines have used in the past and it didn't effect their combat potential in the slightest.

Also, panic is panic. It doesn't matter what causes the panic.

And AGAIN, hit and run tactics are only effective when targeting soft targets, yes the smaller unimportant worlds will fall but the hard points will just shrug of such an attack with ease. To attempt to use hit and run against them would just be feeding your troops to them piecemeal.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> It's what the imperium does in these situations. You cannot defend everything, to try and do so would be foolish. Sometimes you must cut off a limb to save the body. And lux..... Again this is a tactic the Ultramarines have used in the past and it didn't effect their combat potential in the slightest.
> 
> Also, panic is panic. It doesn't matter what causes the panic.


Yes Panic is panic. However Fear is on different lvls. Your saying my panic of my wife finding out I spent money at the bar when I was suppose to be working is the same as my panic of having my head saw off in Iraq. I dont think so.



gen.ahab said:


> And AGAIN, hit and run tactics are only effective when targeting soft targets, yes the smaller unimportant worlds will fall but the hard points will just shrug of such an attack with ease. To attempt to use hit and run against them would just be feeding your troops to them piecemeal.


I dont know if your in the military or not, but Im assuming not. If you were you would know its Imppossible to defend against Hit and Run tatics. You cant predict them first off, their on small scale and cant be as easily seen coming as a army, are aimed at important targets, and are usauly over before retaliation. Look at 9/11, look at Iraq War, Somalian Pirates, Vietnam, American in the Pacific during WW2, Barbarians attacking Rome, Attila the Hun, Ninjas killing Samurais in Feudal Japan, and hundres of other examples. 

Hell from a 40k perspective look at the Alpha Legion beating the UMs after their Primarch was suppose killed by Guilliman himself.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

And you are lessening the fear causes by tyranids invasions to an absurd level. Lol A tyranids horde is an implacable force that will not stop until everything is dead. The NLs terror tactics inspire fear yes but nothing like that.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> And you are lessening the fear causes by tyranids invasions to an absurd level. Lol A tyranids horde is an implacable force that will not stop until everything is dead. The NLs terror tactics inspire fear yes but nothing like that.


Once again you seem to confuse Scale of Devastation to Indivdual Fear. You can tell me Im fighting 10000000+ Nids and will likely die before the nights through fighting for my life. Fuk that suks, but hell I kill as many as I can. 
Now you tell me to fight a NL Legion of 23000 (each 1 equal to 10-20 of my guys anyway) who will skin me alive and enslave my wife and child to chop into little bits for days. Fuk that noise Im keeping one bullet for myself to blow my head off before the end.

Different Lvls. A Nid horde is only scary if you cant beat it. NLs are always scary.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It isn't impossible to defend against hit and run tactics. Hit and run can't brake a hard point. In order to brake them you must use a large force and it will take time. Hit and run is effective at confusing the enemy but at some point you will need to put forth the man power, you will need to make a committed assault and that is when the ultramarines have you. Fact is you cannot win a war of aggression with just hit and run tactics alone.


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## grimdarkness (Apr 19, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> And you are lessening the fear causes by tyranids invasions to an absurd level. Lol A tyranids horde is an implacable force that will not stop until everything is dead. The NLs terror tactics inspire fear yes but nothing like that.


Its different though. 'nids are terrifying, but they're very visible for the most part. Its kind of a very primal fear. The NLs use a much more refined terror as a weapon, which is applied with purpose. They can be round any corner, strike at anytime and at anyone. Just knowing what could happen and having to live with it would turn anyone into a blithering wreck before long.

I'm not saying ones worse than the other, just don't think they're all that comparable


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

What I was saying is that they are used to dealing with a populace that is scared shitless. lol


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## grimdarkness (Apr 19, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> What I was saying is that they are used to dealing with a populace that is scared shitless. lol


my bad, thats a fair point. There must be some way you could get under an UMs skin though, mabye not create actual fear but possibly make them doubt themselves or something. If anyone could find a way it'd be the Night Lords, although im not sure it'd be enough.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Agreed. Everyone has a weak point.lol


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

In war nations, factions, will often employ propaganda...it's primary aim is to dehumanize the adversary. This is done for several reasons, to reduce the inhibition of the willing to maim and murder other humans, as well as to reduce the psychological and emotional damage suffered when hurting or killing another. Tyrannids were very dehumanized to begin with, both physiologicaly and psychologically....the nightlords however will remind you and make sure it stays always present on your mind that they are human, and that they know you are human.

In war the UM's know that the tyrannids will aim to consume them, at the end of the day they will be either eaten or not eaten, and because it is only two outcomes it is much easier to psychologicaly frame the situation and control it. With the nightlords...at the end of the day you do not have only two outcomes...you could be killed, captured, tortured, brainwashed, severed for organs, interogated, and so on...point being in the post scenario both civilian and soldier has much less control in framing their reality.

In long periods of war...soldiers use the defense mechanism of repression most often, however repression's effeciency in protecting the sense of self diminishes with the amount of time it is used...biologicaly humans are made to adapt to acute periods of high intensity stress, not chronic periods of low stress or high stress....terror tactics causes this regardless of how resilliant one is to fear.

The longer one experiences stress which is a cosnequence to the antecedent fear, the more they physiologically fail to thrive. Immune system decreases, muscle deteriation occurs, and most notably neurological brain functions begin to slow down and cease.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

All of my points have been further elaborated... Night Lords definitely have the upper hand on this one.

At this point you're grasping the same invisible straws.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

They thrive on war, its all they know. Stress is a greatly reduced factor. Stress is brought about by period of abnormally trying periods. However, marines live for war there has been instances where marines have fought hundreds of days without rest and still maintained combat effectiveness. Trying to defeat them that way would be relativaly ineffective. 

Threat of attack is reduced by the hard point method since it would require a larger application of man power to deal the same amount of damage given the increased opposition. And all of this is assuming that constant attacks on lesser worlds without any ultramarine opposition wouldn't frustrate the nigh lords to no end. Fact is it would.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Stress, fear, lack of fear, all antecedents....it is atecedents that the nightlords use to influence the targets conseuqnce and following behavioral patterns...that is some thing all marines, astartes, primarchs, horus, were effected by and are affected by with no diminished effect.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

At a curtain point, maybe after years and years of constant stress, they would be effected. But at some point they will need to mount an assault and at that point codex doctrine will take over.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Mount an assault on what? That's the point of unconventional/guerilla warfare, you have no fixed base so you can move pretty much freely during a campaign. 

The only assault I could see the Ultras performing would be onto a Night Lord battle barge, hardly something you can do in force as it require mass teleportations and the like for that to even happen.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The NIGHT LORDS MAN! They will need to assault to win. lol Stay with me here. lol I will continue this when I get back from prom and such.... so tomorrow.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> The NIGHT LORDS MAN! They will need to assault to win. lol Stay with me here. lol I will continue this when I get back from prom and such.... so tomorrow.


 Launch an assault on the Night Lords, I know that was the idea but due to their tactics that becomes extremely difficult...

Or you meant Night Lords assaulting the Ultras... But they would've been doing that the entire time.

Have fun at prom by the way :biggrin:


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Konrad Curze would crush Guilliman, like he crushed Rogal Dorn. And if Dorn can fear the Night Haunter, then the Ultramarines can fear the Night Lords. Curze is the only Primarch to defeat another Primarch without being beaten within an inch of his life.

I think that the Night Lords ability to work around standard battlefield rules and ideals, and the Ultramarines staunch adherence to them even to the point of fault would be their downfall. Plus Space Marines can feel fear, just not easily. But the Night Lords are the masters of fear and if anyone can frighten a Space Marine, its them.

But I suppose im biased towards the Night Lords. In a straight out no tricks allowed fight Ultramarines would win. But when given room to maneuver I believe the Night Lords would annihilate the Sons of Guilliman.


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## Iron Within (Mar 15, 2008)

I've got to go with the Night Lords on this one. The Ultramarines may be the most tactically advanced, rigid, and disciplined of the Legions, but against the Night Lords that seems like a disadvantage more than anything. Take the Soviet Union's war in Afghanistan or the US in Vietnam; the more "conventional" a force is, the more guerrilla forces are going to get around them. I'm not saying this would be a landslide Night Lords victory, but their fast attack tactics, and the way they destroy enemy communication will make it very difficult for the Ultramarines to win.

As far as Night Haunter vs. Guilliman, Night Haunter all they way. As someone said above, "He's Batman for fuck's sake." Also Night Haunter beat down Dorn, so I don't see why he couldn't beat Guilliman too.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

NoiseMarine said:


> Mount an assault on what? That's the point of unconventional/guerilla warfare, you have no fixed base so you can move pretty much freely during a campaign.
> 
> The only assault I could see the Ultras performing would be onto a Night Lord battle barge, hardly something you can do in force as it require mass teleportations and the like for that to even happen.


Exactly. NLs use Guerrilla tatics. there is no Solid Defense against that. Their is always a weak point and the NLs Hit and Run Tatics are use to always hit that weak point. UMs are at a huge disadvantage here. Every army in the history of the world that uses tatics involving a huge force vs a Gureilla onehas shown weakness to Hit and Runs. You cant form a Hard point to defend, the NLs would never attack it. They would however eat away at your force a piece at a time. The only 2 ways to counter Hit and Run Tatics and Terro Speacialist is produce Troops/Resources faster than they're being destroyed, or use guerilla tatics yourself to even the playing field. Ive already listed major points in history where a Large standing force did battle with a small but unconventional/guerilla force. This battle will be like William Wallace fighting off the English from Scotalnd. Konrad being Wallace with guns.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

^ I'd say it's more like Vietnam. But I agree with you, guerilla warfare will usually beat conventual warfare. Now I'm no expert on the HH, but didn't Alpharius (a primarch noted for favoring underhand tactics), defeat the UMs at some stage in the HH? Alpharius was (possibly) killed by papa smurf, but from what I've read, the Night Haunter was general more fearsome than Alpharius (beating up Dorn and all).


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

It would be nothing like willy; that was a defencive war. The point is if you use a hard point tactic and the enemy doesn't attack them because they can't.... You have won. Lmfao you cannot win unless you take ground. Even the Huns had to make assaults against hard points.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Yes the NL won't be attacking your hard points, they'll be too busy cutting off you supply lines, and rallying support on the abandoned worlds.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> It would be nothing like willy; that was a defencive war. The point is if you use a hard point tactic and the enemy doesn't attack them because they can't.... You have won. Lmfao you cannot win unless you take ground. Even the Huns had to make assaults against hard points.



In the war in Iraq we have learn that you cant set up Hard points as you call them and be safe. Everything requires Supplies, Transportation, and Resources. Guerilla Warfare takes thos away from you. You cant beat a enemy you cant find but he can beat you if he nips at any of these three lines a little at a time. You dont need to take Ground at all. Thats all coventional war of conquring. We took Iraq and Agan, are we winning there? No. Why, cause those sneaky bastards learn we cant be everywhere at once in force, then they take a piece out of us a bit at a time. How in any way can you deny these facts? Your Hard Point is just going to dwindle over time and break when its weak enough. Period. All the UMs can realisticly do is not hide till weaken but patrol aggressivly and saturate a area in hopes of finding the NLs were they can. This is like pitting 1000 Marines against 200 SEALs. The Seals have better training in working alone and picking their targets.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Now I'm no expert on the HH, but didn't Alpharius (a primarch noted for favoring underhand tactics), defeat the UMs at some stage in the HH? Alpharius was (possibly) killed by papa smurf, but from what I've read, the Night Haunter was general more fearsome than Alpharius (beating up Dorn and all).


The Battle of Eskrador (if it happened at all) occured after the Heresy, the Death of Horus and the Ascension of the Emperor. It proved Alpharius' point all along, that his adaptibility, devolved command structure and tactical cunning was superior to Guilliman's rigid but organised tactical acumen.

Alpharius proved that even by his (apparent) death, the Alpha Legion still triumphed and forced the Ultramarines to retreat. 'Of the fabulous hydra it is said, cut off one head and two will grow in its place.' 

This can in a sense be drawn as a comparison to a hypothetical Night Lords versus Ultramarines scenario. The main reason the Alpha Legion triumphed on Eskrador was unpredictability. Guilliman assumed that if Alpharius was dead, his Legion would crumble. When all along it had been the philosophy of Alpharius to devolve his command structure and encourage free thought. This Guilliman couldn't predict, and was the cataylst for his defeat.

In a similar way Night Haunter and his Night Lords could triumph. Unpredictability. Something which I imagine Curze was noted for. If the Ultramarines cannot predict what the Night Lords are planning, primarily because they are noted as preferring unconventional warfare, then this automatically gives the Night Lords an advantage and actually serves to further their tactics of psychological warfare. Im not adding my voice to 'The Night Lords will win' camp, but I was making the observation of one of the Ultramarines greatest strengths, which also happens to be one of their greatest weaknesses.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

See the problem I'm having with this Guerrila Vs. Conventional warfare argument is that the examples given hinge on the fact that the Conventional forces were the invaders whilst the Guerillas were on home ground with complete local knowledge and support.

But if the Night Lords were to attack Ultramar it would be them venturing into unknown territory against a vast numerically superior, entrenched force which 1-on-1 was equally as well armed and skillful and had a full knowledge of the environs in which they would be fighting as well as the support of the indigenous natives.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> In the war in Iraq we have learn that you cant set up Hard points as you call them and be safe. Everything requires Supplies, Transportation, and Resources. Guerilla Warfare takes thos away from you. You cant beat a enemy you cant find but he can beat you if he nips at any of these three lines a little at a time. You dont need to take Ground at all. Thats all coventional war of conquring. We took Iraq and Agan, are we winning there? No. Why, cause those sneaky bastards learn we cant be everywhere at once in force, then they take a piece out of us a bit at a time. How in any way can you deny these facts? Your Hard Point is just going to dwindle over time and break when its weak enough. Period. All the UMs can realisticly do is not hide till weaken but patrol aggressivly and saturate a area in hopes of finding the NLs were they can. This is like pitting 1000 Marines against 200 SEALs. The Seals have better training in working alone and picking their targets.


For one NL are not that superior to the UM. Number two NL have a larger supply train than the UM. Number 3 have you never heard of the U-boats? US started using large warships to cover supply ships rending hit and run tactics against them all but useless. And you can't even compair the Iraq war to this. Lol do you think the general population would support the NL? Answer: HELL NO! And number four, stop compairing this to gorilla tactics used by DEFENDERS! Lmfao


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> See the problem I'm having with this Guerrila Vs. Conventional warfare argument is that the examples given hinge on the fact that the Conventional forces were the invaders whilst the Guerillas were on home ground with complete local knowledge and support.
> 
> But if the Night Lords were to attack Ultramar it would be them venturing into unknown territory against a vast numerically superior, entrenched force which 1-on-1 was equally as well armed and skillful and had a full knowledge of the environs in which they would be fighting as well as the support of the indigenous natives.


True enough about the Ultramar being the UMs home turf. Very true. I see the UMs doing very well then if they work with the populace. I know (even if the author said both Legions are in = #'s) that underman the NLs have a good cahnce to win in a random setting. The NLs have a good chance to win if given prep time. The Alpha legion beat the Emperors Swords (Scyths?) by planning and paitintly waiting a superior foe. C:CSM 5th ed. NLs could easily learn what they need in time and hit the UMs weak spots at once.Their is so many ways were the NLs could pull a win, with Prep. 

Without it, and their fighting UMs on their turf with no Prep, then I give UMs the victory 9/10.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> In a similar way Night Haunter and his Night Lords could triumph. Unpredictability. Something which I imagine Curze was noted for. If the Ultramarines cannot predict what the Night Lords are planning, primarily because they are noted as preferring unconventional warfare, then this automatically gives the Night Lords an advantage and actually serves to further their tactics of psychological warfare. Im not adding my voice to 'The Night Lords will win' camp, but I was making the observation of one of the Ultramarines greatest strengths, which also happens to be one of their greatest weaknesses.


This is what I was trying to say. Ultramarines greatest strengths, which also happens to be one of their greatest weaknesses.



gen.ahab said:


> For one NL are not that superior to the UM. Number two NL have a larger supply train than the UM. Number 3 have you never heard of the U-boats? US started using large warships to cover supply ships rending hit and run tactics against them all but useless. And you can't even compair the Iraq war to this. Lol do you think the general population would support the NL? Answer: HELL NO! And number four, stop compairing this to gorilla tactics used by DEFENDERS! Lmfao


For One their not Superior, their better train to work alone and in small #s.

For Two how do NLs have a larger suplly train, they are a small warband half the time, and tatics they use since the HH reflect that.

For Three, Uboats can be detected from aways by Sonar, they can be track by sound, and they have to come to a certain depth with periscope to attack. A ship in the Warp cannot be detetected while in the Warp, it cannot be stopped in the Warp, and the Warp is the Daemons Playground where, hey, the NLs are on first name bases with. :so_happy: No the General Population wont unite or help the NLs, but they dont need to, they need only to die or be enslave.  I can compare all the wars i listed cause in all these failed wars are proof the Coventional Forces struggle against Unconventional. I f you want to simply deny the facts go ahead, thats your right. k:

And for Four, what do you mean stop comparing gorilla tactics used by defenders? The NLs dont play defense, ever. The UMs play it alot actually.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Ignore what facts? The sonar used by the larger ships so they could detect the u-boats and destroy them? Oh fuck no imperial ships couldn't possibly have anything like that. You are right. Lol 

Night lords are attacking the ultramar therefore the supply train would be longer than that of the UM. 

Each individual UM squad is designed to be able to function without imput from command. 

All those wars you have compaired showcase hit and run tactics used by defenders within their own territory, not aggressors.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> Night lords are attacking the ultramar therefore the supply train would be longer than that of the UM.
> 
> Each individual UM squad is designed to be able to function without imput from command.
> 
> All those wars you have compaired showcase hit and run tactics used by defenders within their own territory, not aggressors.


 Supply train for what? The Night Lords aren't defending in this scenario, they are working in more independent groups... Both armies live off of the same food, use the same weapons and as an extension the same ammunition and armor... 

Given their guerilla style tactics a supply train isn't so much needed as communication in the very least. Scavenging their dead enemies before they leave from a hit and run attack -as it doesn't take long to pick up a boltgun, saw off an arm or pick up magazines/grenades.

Ultras could function without command of course, but they function typically as a conventional force so they know what to do in a conventional war. Even if they could mimmick the Night Lords tactics they don't do it half as well and that takes terror of general citizenry out as a variable in their favor.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Supply of resources.... the fact they aren’t on the defensive is completely and utterly irrelevant. lol scavenging from dead enemies will not keep an army afloat. Besides, small groups won't be able to take the hard points so ultimately they will be forced to mobilize to take ground. They will have to in order to win a war.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> Supply of resources.... the fact they aren’t on the defensive is completely and utterly irrelevant. lol scavenging from dead enemies will not keep an army afloat. Besides, small groups won't be able to take the hard points so ultimately they will be forced to mobilize to take ground. They will have to in order to win a war.


 As stated by others, you can't have ALL hard-points. You leave everything else unguarded? Then what? Then it gets used by the Night Lords, and your "hardpoints" get taken down piece by bloody piece.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

As I have said before, if you try and take a hard point( factory worlds and such) by whittlings it down piece by piece you will just be feeding your troops to such locations piecemeal. Not an effective way to make war. The rest of the worlds would have no military value which is why leaving them unguarded would be expectable.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> As I have said before, if you try and take a hard point( factory worlds and such) by whittlings it down piece by piece you will just be feeding your troops to such locations piecemeal. Not an effective way to make war. The rest of the worlds would have no military value which is why leaving them unguarded would be expectable.


 So you're going to let the Night Lords go "Ololol I am in ur base killing all ur mans!" on your entire civilian populace while just running away? Doesn't sound like an Ultra thing to do!

I was also under the impression we were talking about a single planetary setting... Not an entire Segmentum


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

So was I but the OP switched it up on us. lol Right rude thing to do to a man don’t you think? lol


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

UM will win at conventional warfare (well, sci-fi conventional).
NL will win at terror/guerilla/small squad warfare.

/solved


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## grimdarkness (Apr 19, 2010)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> UM will win at conventional warfare (well, sci-fi conventional).
> NL will win at terror/guerilla/small squad warfare.
> 
> /solved


im kind of with you there. I think that bigger battles favour the UM, while lots of smaller skirmishes will give the NL the edge.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

To clarify a few points....I changed the OP quite early on in the thread as well as make a post when I did so to notify people....so for it being rude, I perceive it as not being so.

As for people who are questioning if it is a sigle planetary setting or a galactic wide war...I stated in the OP and in several post it is a galactic wide war and both legions being able to acquire and cut off their opponents resources is part of it as is all aspects of war...


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Sarcasm man it was sarcasm! Lmfao


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

Night Lords would win in every scenario.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Fuck necro thread...

Weapon, I know you haven't posted much but check out the date before you post, this thread is 9 months gone.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Dorn is a respectible primarch and the fact that Konrad Curze almost killed him makes me put Konrad over Roboute.


I don't know why people place so much emphasis on this

Curze sucker punched Dorn and then proceeded to maul Dorn while Dorn lay unconscious on the ground

The Lion decked Russ. It's called the element of surprise. It doesn't really show what a great fighter the Lion was (although the fight before that showed the Lion was no slouch). 
What if the Lion had proceeded to hurt Russ while Russ was unconscious (instead of walking away as he did), would that somehow show what a good fighter the Lion was? I don't think so...


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Ultramarines would win, almost any day, and almost any where.


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

No way man, there's a reason that dark blue is better than light blue.
And gold>>>>yellow.

If there's one thing that the ultramarines are scarier than the night lords at, it's their fashion sense.

*Buuuuuuuuuurn!*


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Weapon said:


> No way man, there's a reason that dark blue is better than light blue.
> And gold>>>>yellow.
> 
> If there's one thing that the ultramarines are scarier than the night lords at, it's their fashion sense.
> ...


I did not get that post... 

In the HH era the Ultras would clearly win, they have the better tactican and they have dicipline and strenght in numbers.


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

Night Lords have another edge over Ultra's too...






If you don't get this one then you have no say in this thread at all.
And read the first post.
They would be slaughtered.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

So, apparently they win because they dress like douchebags.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> So, apparently they win because they are gay and dress like douchebags.


Who? 

Random to fill the minimun requirements. :crazy::search:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Doelago said:


> Who?
> 
> Random to fill the minimun requirements. :crazy::search:


Well, since he is a raving NL fanboy, I would assume he is talking about the grease lords(NL).


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

u mad shmurf?


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Weapon said:


> u mad shmurf?


Please, learn to even spell it correctly. Your post should be: 



> Are you mad "Smurf"?


And not that oddly spelled "shmurf" (Funny word by the way) thing.


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

I prefer to shpell like thish shometimesh.
Makesh me feel like Shean Connery.

Alsho, it wash meant to be condecending.

sh.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Weapon said:


> I prefer to shpell like thish shometimesh.
> Makesh me feel like Shean Connery.


Ok... True Night Lord madness. :scratchhead:


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

Doelago said:


> Ok... True Night Lord madnessh. :scratchhead:


Fickshed that for you.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

MADNESS?


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

When I saw this had new posts I thought Lux was back. Kinda miss that guy...


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

Irish people come here too?
I must look into this matter, as my LGS has closed down...


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Weapon said:


> Irish people come here too?
> I must look into this matter, as my LGS has closed down...


Yep for nearly a year now. Only when we're not tap-dancing, drinking, diddlying and being typecast as east U.S. cops that is.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

NiceGuyEddy said:


> Yep for nearly a year now. Only when we're not tap-dancing, drinking, diddlying and being typecast as east U.S. cops that is.


Or going crazy rolling around gleefully in potato fields...


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

Did you know that the German for Potato is Kartoffle?
Or that in Frence it is literally translated as "earth apple"?

I shall not deny that I do indeed love my potato's.
Lasagne too.
But moreso potato's.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Weapon said:


> Did you know that the German for Potato is Kartoffle?
> Or that in Frence it is literally translated as "earth apple"?
> 
> I shall not deny that I do indeed love my potato's.
> ...


What did that have to do with the topic?


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## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

I've seen several post referencing lux, who is that?


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Jerushee said:


> I've seen several post referencing lux, who is that?


From what I have understood he was a man of mighty laughter and idiot tricks. 

Lets just say that his way of thinking about the 40k universe was... Different?


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## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

I'm not sure I understand....I only ask because I see people mention lux but so vaguely and mysteriously, like voldermort from harry potter. Only snipits or he who shall not be named, sort of thing.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Jerushee said:


> I'm not sure I understand....I only ask because I see people mention lux but so vaguely and mysteriously, like voldermort from harry potter. Only snipits or he who shall not be named, sort of thing.


Lets just say that he was feeding us with his own... Ideas? About the 40k universe. 

I dont know much about this mighty "Lux", for his past is shrouded in mystery. But I know that it was once conspired that might be an Alpha Legionaire, feeding us with false information to misslead the righteous agensts of the Emperors Inquisiton. He never succeeded. 

Back to seriousnes, I think he left the forum, and went over to, eh, what place was it now again?


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

Doelago said:


> Back to seriousnes, I think he left the forum, and went over to, eh, what place was it now again?


A mental institute. No I think he's at bolter and chainsword. If nothing else he drew some big crowds to his threads.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

NiceGuyEddy said:


> A mental institute. No I think he's at bolter and chainsword. If nothing else he drew some big crowds to his threads.


But how many of us took him seriosuly? None, I think.

How many take him seriously over at Bolthole or whatever? Everyone. :shok:


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

Weapon said:


> Did you know that the German for Potato is Kartoffle?
> Or that in Frence it is literally translated as "earth apple"?
> 
> I shall not deny that I do indeed love my potato's.
> ...


:shok: Well, now we know why you play Night Lords. Clearly you see yourself reflected in them.


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

@ Nave:

Over here:

French Fries = chips
Chips = crisps

There is no such thing as a french chip.

Alas no, I do not see myself as a member of a fictional army in any sense and would only say I do to irritate others. Much like when some twelve-year-old comes onto a forum claiming to actually 'be' an Ultramarine through how he phrases his posts. He then proceeds to dole out free samples of his 'knowledge' of his army to anyone who will listen. e.g. 

"Hey guys, what do you think the Ultra's would do if they were there to defend Terra?"

"WELL FIRST WE'D KILL HORUS AND THEN PROCEED TO EXTERMINATUS THE TRAITOR LEGIONS AND BUILD UP TERRA'S DEFENCES FOR WHEN IT GOES INTO THE EYE OF TERROR TO KILLS THE CHAOS EMPEROR'S AND THEN THEY'D BRING OUT THE CODEX THAT TELLS EVERYONE TO SPLIT UP BECAUSE IT'S BETTER THAT WAY ANY QUESTIONS???"

You know what I'm talking about.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I would have to say Curze and his Night Lords would infinitely stalemate the Ultramarines in a war, after seeing how he stalemated Lion and his Dark Angels for three years straight with no end in sight, except for the Lion's composure cracking.


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## Ryu_Niimura (May 1, 2013)

Why are we still pitting armies against each other? Give me a small detachement of Night Lords and I'll kill the bastard myself:grin: Guerilla warfare can be absolutely devestating when done right, and there's not a thing you can do about it.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

UM will win just because of having more man power. However , allot depends on circumstance and setting. 

A fight between primarchs..it's a toss up but I lean toward Curze because he seems to be more of a fighter of the two.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I hate to bring some sense to the thread again...

But since the OP was posted, we have gotten to see a large scale UM vs NL fight in _Void Stalker_.

It's a straight up fight. Yes, the Night Lords are caught flat-footed AND are outnumbered, but it's more than just that. The Ultramarines completely outdance the NL on the ground.

"The vox, what little of it still made any sense, spoke of a bleak picture. Casualties were more than high; the Legion forces still on the ground were being devastated. Squads of enemy Space Marines were fighting with an efficiency that had no place on such a vast scale. Legion claws were shouting of enemy soldiers linking up with their brethren with vicious frequency, forming overwhelming numbers as they stormed through the primary chambers, forcing the defenders into an ever-heightening state of disorder and retreat. Every Night Lord counter-attack was met with waves of reinforcements, as the Imperials fell back in organised withdrawals, sinking to fall-back points already being reinforced by their freshly landed brethren."

I'll admit the NLs were at a disadvantage but not to that extent. In a straight up fight, even with the homecourt advantage of their second homeworld, the NL's fortress fell within the span of hours.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

Because most of the Night lords are recruited from Nostroma where it was mostly criminals on that planet . Does this have an affect on them as a space marine? 

I mean I have a feeling that the Night lords have lower morale and organization compared to Ultramarine . Night lords specialize in terror tactics and brutality. It's kind of like what a mexican mafia or a terrorist group would do by beheading or using scare tactics on their enemy. (If you ever seen some of these beheading videos from terrorist group you know what I mean.)

But it doesn't mean they are effective as a military organization. I mean a terrorist would be tough but they wouldn't hold up a candle to a Navy Seal for example. 

When I think of the Ultra marine I think of them a elite US special forces like Navy Seals or Green Berets. Where as Night lords are like a gang members using terror tactics. 

In a war I put my money on the Navy Seals over gang members. So I think the Ultramarine will beat up Night lords any day of the week.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

kwak76 said:


> Navy Seals or Green Berets


Sorry have to disagree all SM are like those. I think the Smurfs are more like the army of the SMs, there's a lot of them and they are more of hold the line troops, no offense to any army guys out there.

Basically x+Specforces
Fists Seabees
IW Combat engineers
Smurf+Sons Army


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Using the Void Stalker comparison is inaccurate I feel, as for one the UM's had imperial troop support in addition to their legion forces. Additionally the NightLords are already a broken legion by this point, their primarch is dead and they have already become a divided legion without structure.

Furthermore this thread specifically states this takes place using Pre-Heresy marines and their primarchs to lead them, we have seen how effective the Nightlords can be when united by their Primarch Curze. The effect we saw was that the Nightlords stalemated the Dark Angels in an all out war for over three years straight, to the point where the Lion was beginning to lose his composure. 

If the Nightlords were able to stalemate the Dark Angels in a three year war, which included both void warfare on a mass scale, as well as planetary ground warefare on a mass scale then I see no reason why the Nightlords could not at the very least stalemate the UltraMarines


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

> It's a straight up fight. Yes, the Night Lords are caught flat-footed AND are outnumbered, but it's more than just that. The Ultramarines completely outdance the NL on the ground.


1) The Night Lords are completely outnumbered and taken by surprise. This is an absolutely dominating position for the UMs to be in, as super soldiers I would shocked if they failed to route any army under similar circumstances.
2) A straight up fight is already a fight that is not favpirable for the Night Lords. There success on a war against the UM depends entirely on their ability to make it a guerrilla war. They succeeded in doing so against the Dark Angels, one of the most strategically gifted Legions, your point doesn't really diminish that.



kwak76 said:


> I mean I have a feeling that the Night lords have lower morale and organization compared to Ultramarine .


It depends what you mean by those terms. The NLs are Space Marines first and for most and are therefore possessed of all the courage and discipline that entails. Lord of the Night shows us that Night Haunter was actually a big proponenet of self control and focus in his Legion and the Night Lords series shows the Legions ability to function effectively as one unit. What it also shows us is a lack of the brotherhood we've come to expect from other Legions. That I think is the biggest holdover from their time as gangers, they don't bond easily. They work well together and are vicious and effective killers, but they are not friends.



> In a war I put my money on the Navy Seals over gang members. So I think the Ultramarine will beat up Night lords any day of the week.


In a fight between two equally highly trained men I'd put my money on the one whose fought from birth to survive. That's the edge the Night Lords have over 'posh' Legions like the UMs and the DA, they will do literally anything to win.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

There are far too many possibilities and factors to consider that could influence this matchup, so really, making an accurate assumption has gone completely out of the window.

But, I'll add my two pence nevertheless. The XIII Legion. Rarely has a numerically superior force lost to its inferior, when supported by firm discipline, flexibility, tactical prowess and an excellent command boasting strategic minds.

The Ultramarines are not without their ******, however, and the Night Lords are unorthodox foes indeed, but... this is where circumstantial factors come into play.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> There success on a war against the UM depends entirely on their ability to make it a guerrilla war.


I think it does. Because a Legion can't sustain itself indefinitely as a guerrilla force. It needs a means to manufacture, in the least, bolt-guns, bolts, and power armor.

We know that forge-ships can produce bolts...maybe bolt-guns, but the technology to create power armor is something held by forge worlds and the like. Eventually, you need to hunker down and protect a world, moon, or extremely large asteroid.

Yes, you could hide the world through one means or another. Yes, you could also move the factories around, always trying to keep a step ahead of your pursers. But one day you'll get caught. It might be bad luck. It might be because the enemy was just a little bit too canny. Maybe it was a spy. Still, eventually, you'll be caught with your pants down and your ability to wage war will be crippled.

I think (at least in my opinion) the ability for the Night Lords to protect high-value, stationary targets like a Forge World will be their undoing in a match against the Ultramarines if the war becomes protracted.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

hailene said:


> I think it does. Because a Legion can't sustain itself indefinitely as a guerrilla force. It needs a means to manufacture, in the least, bolt-guns, bolts, and power armor.


I'm not sure that's true. The traitor legions currently lack much of a manufacturing base and get along alright. They don't need to produce if they can steal.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I'll try to find supporting evidence later, but I disagree with the assertion that even individual Chapters - never mind entire _Legions_ are so dependent on outsider organizations for their logistics. My thought on the matter is that practically every capability related to the infantry side of the Space Marine mission - with the exception of Terminator armour - can be addressed by a Chapter's Armorium. I'd go so far as to argue that most vehicles - but not starships, Thunderhawks, etc. - can be produced by a Chapter.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> The traitor legions currently lack much of a manufacturing base and get along alright.


I don't think we can lump them all the Traitor Legions together. I'd imagine the Iron Warriors, for example, would be better off than the others.

We also know that the Dark Mechanicum works with the Traitor legions as well. Xana II is one such forge world within the Eye of Terror that manufactures war materiel for the Black Legion.



Phoebus said:


> I'll try to find supporting evidence later, but I disagree with the assertion that even individual Chapters - never mind entire Legions are so dependent on outsider organizations for their logistics.


It's pretty rough. From _Mechanicum_, a Salamanders space marine complains to a Martian adept:

"The lack of armaments and materiel reaching my primarch’s Legion is becoming critical. This situation cannot be allowed to continue. We have no reserves of ammunition beyond that which the forge ships of the Mechanicum contingent attached to our expedition fleet produce. Do you have any idea how much ammunition is expended by a Legion on war footing?"

Clearly the Salamanders, a noble Legion noted to create much of their war materiel themselves, needs the support of the Mechanicus to fight at full efficiency. 

A quote from Dorn from the same book:

"I shall send Sigismund and my four companies of Imperial Fists to secure the forges of Mars. Mondus Occulum and Mondus Gamma * produce the bulk of the armour and weapons of the Astartes*."

So we now know that not only do the Mechancius create the majority of power armor, but that it's limited to a couple of forges! This is confirmed later on in a conversation between Sigsmund and an adept of Mars:

‘But you [Sigsmund] must understand that if Mondus Occulum and Mondus Gamma fall, you will have *no way of replenishing the combat losses you will sustain in any meaningful way*.'



Phoebus said:


> ics. My thought on the matter is that practically every capability related to the infantry side of the Space Marine mission - with the exception of Terminator armour - can be addressed by a Chapter's Armorium.


From IA9 we know that the Marines Errant suffered extreme losses early in M.39. By the closing years of M.41, they are _still_ lacking in "less easily replaceable panoply such as Dreadnoughts, land Raider hulls, and ancient battle barges would *never be made good again*."

And the Marines Errant scavenge what they can wherever they can, too, but still they have holes in their armories. 

IA9 also states that despite Badab having an "advanced manufacturing capacity", there were "some items of wargear such as Terminator armour or Land Raiders the Astral Claws could not readily produce (because they required many lost techno-arcane arts and rare resources)."

I should note that my hunting through IA9 and I10, it seems that some advanced Chapters (Like the Sons of Medusa, an Iron Hands successor) are able to create, in limited quantities, power armor.

Most noteworthy are the Salamanders who apparently can produce terminator armor in limited quantities as well!

Still, I think there's probably a difference in how Chapters and Legions were and are supplied. Everything is so decentralized nowadays.



Phoebus said:


> so dependent on outsider organizations for their logistics.


It's strange you would consider the Mechanicum an "outsider". They're part of the Imperium of Man...theoretically everyone is on the same side.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

hailene said:


> I don't think we can lump them all the Traitor Legions together. I'd imagine the Iron Warriors, for example, would be better off than the others.


Fair enough. The Night Lord Legion operates primarily off theft and raiding at least and I think its fair to say that even the most well off traitor legions have weaker supply bases than their imperial counter parts.



> It's strange you would consider the Mechanicum an "outsider". They're part of the Imperium of Man...theoretically everyone is on the same side.


Both the Mechanicum and the Astartes can be considered 'outsiders' even amongst the imperium. Both are technically autonomous and self governing with minimal oversight from the Inquisition. Space Marines are supposed to be a force capable of rapidly responding to threats, having to rely on notoriously bad warp travel to get their bullets would destroy that in my mind.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> even the most well off traitor legions have weaker supply bases than their imperial counter parts.


I do not know if we can determine this absolutely. Most of the Legions are hardly cohesive, united forces anymore. It'd be hard to generalize across them as each warband.

But I mean we do get to see Huron's Red Corsairs swell from a few hundred Space Marines (post-Badab war) to several thousand in a few centuries (of warp) time. That's pretty impressive.



MEQinc said:


> having to rely on notoriously bad warp travel to get their bullets would destroy that in my mind.


We see that's the case in _Blood Reaver_ that the Mechancius has a production facility to supply the Marines Errant. To quote the book, it states that the "deep-void outpost was responsible for a significant supply of raw material for the Chapter’s armoury."

In fact, later in the paragraph it goes to say this: "In protecting Mechanicus interests, they earned the allegiance of Mars. In earning such unity, they garnered a share in the Mechanicus’ significant munitions production. A circle of symbiosis, fuelled by mutual interest."

In IA9, Huron is able to expand the (then) Astral Claws' armories and the rest of the Maelstrom Warden's armories due to a close relationship with a nearby forgeworld.

Then there's the whole Angstrom fiasco.

Searching through some other sources, however, it appears that Chapters are almost completely autonomous for resupply. IA2 states that almost every vehicle is made in the Chapter's own forges and the 5th edition rulebook says that Space Marine Chapters are completely self-sufficient. I'm guessing that buddying up with a forgeworld just sweetens the deal.

Then again, making STC vehicles and bolt-rounds is a completely different beast than power armor. IA2 notes that Thunderhawks are particularly hard to make and that some Chapters go to forgeworlds to attain their Thunderhawks.

It also goes to say that some Chapters have ties to local forge worlds for mutual support and resupply, much like the Marines Errant relationship I outlined above.

So in conclusion...Chapters seem mostly independent. 

I still think Legions were less so. In _Mechancius_ one of the tech adepts speaking to the Fabricator-General states that as the Legions go farther and farther away from Mars, their lines of supply will grow increasingly problematic. This insinuates that much of the Legion war materiel stemmed from Mars.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

*Hailene*,

Thinking on it more, I have to agree with what you say about the Legions. It makes sense after all - each force of the Legiones Astartes deployed with an expeditionary fleet, which would have included elements of the Munitorum and the Adeptus Astartes. These would have been responsible for logistics, freeing the Space Marines to simply focus on the fighting.

By contrast, Chapters are meant to be more more or less self-sufficient, so a lot of what I assumed would instead apply to them. I appreciate you looking into the various Imperial Armour books; to supplement your efforts, I dug up some citations from the newest Index Astartes and Munitorum articles that GW released. Some of them contradict each other (go figure!), but they arrive at a conclusion similar enough to Imperial Armour 2, etc.: a Chapter can produce most of what it needs for remain combat effective, but most often relies on the Adeptus Mechanicus for some portion of its war fighting capability... and this is ALWAYS the case when it comes to certain ancient, arcane technologies (such as Terminator armour).

From Index Astartes - Techmarines:


> “Deep within their machine temples [Techmarines] forge weapons *and armour* for their battle-brothers with great reverence and skill.”





> “... *few* Space Marine Chapters have the facilities to build their own spacecraft, most being constructed in the shipyards of Jupiter and Mars. A notable exception to this are the Ultramarines, who maintain extensive construction yards in orbit around Calth, one of the planets within their realm of Ultramar.”


From Index Astartes - Fortress Monasteries:


> “While a Chapter receives the bulk of its ammunition, small arms and armoured fighting vehicles from the Munitorum, ... a degree of its weapons come from within the Chapter itself. This is especially true of weapons unique to the Chapter, such as relic blades, specialised bolter rounds or ancient suits of armour. These weapons are created and maintained in the forges of the fortress monastery, ... *Even without the aid of the Munitorum, once a Space Marine Chapter has created a fully working forge it is capable of sustaining its own combat needs.”*


From Index Astartes - Rhinos:


> “Whether built in the Martian weapon-forges or the *fortress monasteries of the Space Marines,* the builders of these holy vehicles know that the purity and spiritual welfare of the Rhino is as important as the skill of the artificers who construct it.”


From Index Astartes - Tactical Dreadnought Armour:


> “... new suits are produced by the Adeptus Mechanicus, ... there could be several centuries between two shipments ... arriving at a fortress monastery.”


From Munitorum - Chainswords:


> “Every Space Marine Chapter *will forge its own blades *with subtle differences to those of its brethren, just as every forge world produces its tried and tested signature weapons, based on its preferred schematics.”


From Index Astartes - Predators:


> “Most Space Marine Chapters have the facilities to construct their own armoured vehicles. These Chapters maintain a large forge in which ... all the ammunition, equipment and supplies required by the Chapter ... [is produced].
> 
> The forge will produce large numbers of Rhino chassis, a small number of which will be earmarked to provide the basis for Predators, Whirlwinds and other variant patterns.”





> “A Chapter will own on average between 20 and 30 Predators.”


That same self-sufficiency, though, leads me to think that Chapters ARE capable of constructing their own power armour. Being most likely to suffer catastrophic damage, power armour would be the item most in need of replacement - if not in terms of entire suits, then certainly in terms of individual parts (helmets, auto-reactive shoulder pauldrons, etc.).

Cheers,
P.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

One thing that can be noted is that ADB has shown that the Night Lords have had clear losses to other legions. I say legions because even in the Ultramarines successor chapters were able to defeat the Night Lords. The question is how? ADB says that chapters are better. He makes the point and in someways it is part of lore. However I still think because of the state the Night Lords were in, there is enough wiggle room to make respectable opinions. 

For the *Main Point* I don't see a clear scenario where the Night Lords would have a good advantage. So in that sense I would think Ultramarines would be more successful. I do think that if somehow the Night Lords were able to infliterate the Ultramarines worlds and devastate its people that it would change Ultramar forever. I think the Ultramarines and the people of Ultramar are used to "Black and White" warfare. In this case the Alpha Legions tactics would probably be more useful... However, that type of "Jack the Ripper" effect on the population would completely change the mentality of its people. 

As far as Chapters vs Legions... Guerilla vs Conventional. 40k for the most part have developed technology and extreme ways of gaining victories to where Guerilla Warfare doesn't have that much weight. Guerilla warfare is useful when a force has something to hide behind, whether its terrain, buildings, or populations. I would say... I MOST cases the armies in 40K could careless in destroying cities, building, and destroying mass populations of innocent civilians.

I do not think chapters are capable of crushing a legion. Legions are almost like their own branch of military service, and have their own logistics, power, and intelligence. For the most part survive on their own. Chapters have limitations, control, and "organization." I'm just not sure if thats a reasonable explanation to how they could overpower a legion. Again, maybe the Night Lords were just horrible. The way I picture it, is the legion squad with variety of weapons to a chapter squad with a rocket launcher. 

A chapter is essentially a bunch of needles. It kind of goes against that notion that together an organization is more powerful than divided, in other words the concept that divided elements falter. A Land speeder squadron divided amongst chapters doing their own thing isn't the same as a land speeder squadron with one purpose (or at least persuing one goal at a time).

Brings up the point of which, are the Night Lords a broken legion or ADB redefining what Astartes really are. This concept of a swooping victory has more historical context to it that realistic. Military organizations which are technologically more superior have those swooping victories. The U.S. vs Iraqi forces for example. However like World War I were the European forces were essentially using machine guns, trenches and bodies, the wars were grulling, with neither side getting such a victory. 

ADB's depiction of the Night Lords losing the way they did kind of reminds me of how Julius Caesar had a tactical manuever to destroy Pompeii's forces. First of all, the Night Lords don't fight like that (no legions fight like that), and technology is so superior in the Astartes armies that it is very hard, and pretty much impossible to create such a tactical manuever to where their is a "swooping" victory. I think it destroys the image of the Astartes, because it depicts them as disorganized and in someways cowardly. Every battle until this point between astartes has been nitty gritty, which showed the awesome force of astartes organizations. Even the Istvaan battles were nitty gritty, with victory only granted through superior numbers. 

I question this move with ADB. I don't necessarly think this is flawed considering what the Night Lords were (a wreck of a legion essentially). But the idea that the Son's of Horus also ran like cowards after Terra, does get me questioning. Has ADB changed what Astartes really are? I believe his argument is somewhere in the lines that thats how battles are won and lost. However, the traitors had a lot of elements that were against them already, which don't require losses that depict the traitor astartes as heavily different from what they were meant to be.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> The question is how?


They lacked a cohesive chain of command and leader after Curze died. No one stepped up. Or rather, a whole bunch of people stepped up, but the masses were unwilling to accept any of them unanimously. 

Also at that point of the fight, the NLs have been splintering off slowly. It wasn't their entire Legion there.

I'd also like to state that, in my opinion, the Night Lords wouldn't be as good as the UMs in a straight up fight, anyway. The other reasons were just extra handicaps.



ckcrawford said:


> Legions are almost like their own branch of military service, and have their own logistics, power, and intelligence


As Phoebus and I discussed, we believe that Chapters, not Legions, would be more independent. I agree with you, CK, that Legions are like a military arm of the Imperium. Chapters, however, are closer to small, independent entities within the Imperium.

They recruit and produce most, if not all, of their war materiel on their Chapter world (crusading Chapters being the exception, of course).



ckcrawford said:


> A chapter is essentially a bunch of needles.


You can combine a bunch of threads to form a thick cable. It's all in how you organize it.

_Void Stalker_ did mention that the UM fleet was not particularly organized, but the ground forces danced circles around the Night Lords' efforts to defend and counter attack.



ckcrawford said:


> Brings up the point of which, are the Night Lords a broken legion


At the point of the big Ultramarine and Night Lords show down at Tsagualsa, the Night Lords were a broken Legion. Was there any doubt in your mind that this was not the case?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

@ Haliene, its more of a rhetorical question. Obviously, they were not at full strength. But one of the main points taken from the scenario is the fact that chapters work best. I'm not sure if your example is the best, because I still feel there is still trouble to describe components that are seperate and yet better than a bigger organization. A thick cable for example is suppose to act permanently together. I understand the concept that their individual components acting as one. But its reacts as a conductor all at once permanently for the most part. 

Also, by a broken legion, I mean much more than broken in the sense that their primarch died. I also mean that they were broken inside out. I'm having trouble deciding whether ADB is trying to depict a lot of the traitor legions as broken legions that finally meet their end when that main component that connects the legion together gets destroyed or where the battle goes "one fell swoop through some superior tactic" and _Heroic Victory_ Warhammer 40K Total War (the game).


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> But one of the main points taken from the scenario is the fact that chapters work best.


This is rather moot. Since at least some of the Legions had Chapter side formations. Whether they were called Companies (in the case of the Ultramarines), Chapters in the case of the Word Bearers, or something else for another Legion. The Legions themselves were broken down into smaller parts, yet they could be rejoined together in times of need and fight together.

Still, I think the point of battle at Tsagualsa was less that Chapters worked better and more along the lines that the Codex Astartes tore the Night Lords a new one. To quote Talos: 

"The Codex Astartes was responsible for our fortress falling in the most brutally efficient assault I have seen since the Siege of Terra."

One could argue he was talking about how the CA separated the Legions into Chapters, but I don't think that is the case. From earlier in the book:

"The vox, what little of it still made any sense, spoke of a bleak picture. Casualties were more than high; the Legion forces still on the ground were being devastated. Squads of enemy Space Marines were fighting with an efficiency that had no place on such a vast scale. Legion claws were shouting of enemy soldiers linking up with their brethren with vicious frequency, forming overwhelming numbers as they stormed through the primary chambers, forcing the defenders into an ever-heightening state of disorder and retreat. Every Night Lord counter-attack was met with waves of reinforcements, as the Imperials fell back in organised withdrawals, sinking to fall-back points already being reinforced by their freshly landed brethren."



ckcrawford said:


> t. I'm not sure if your example is the best, because I still feel there is still trouble to describe components that are seperate and yet better than a bigger organization.


Chapters, like the Legions before them, are capable of being grouped up or broken down as the situation demands. As I said before, breaking down the Legions into smaller, more flexible tactical formations is not something new. It happened in the Great Crusade.



ckcrawford said:


> Also, by a broken legion, I mean much more than broken in the sense that their primarch died.


If you're asking in that sense, then they were broken before the Heresy broke out. That's why Curze blew up their homeplanet in the first place.

And they are broken more than simply their Primarch dying--the Black Legion is still strong and cohesive--the Night Lords are broken because no one could garner the support and respect of his fellow Legionaries. They're like the Emperor's Children--broken down into warbands that occasionally support each other if their needs happen to coincide and they're in a generous mood.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Weren't the Luna Wolves originally recruited from less than humble parts of populations? I know the Night Lords were, but I thought in one of the Index Astartes it mentions their recruitment methods coming from unpleasant areas of populations. I could be wrong. That would explain how they broke and retreated right after Horus died. There are some legions that would die to the last man when their primarch died. 

I think there is some understanding why an Astartes Legion like the Night Lords would not be in that league of the poster boy stern, die to the last man, look.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> I know the Night Lords were, but I thought in one of the Index Astartes it mentions their recruitment methods coming from unpleasant areas of populations. I could be wrong.


It's degrees. The people of Noctourne were the worst of the bad. As children, they were thieves, murderers, and rapists. It was a hell hole of a world.



ckcrawford said:


> That would explain how they broke and retreated right after Horus died.


They broke because of the psychic backlash of Horus's death and the fact that all of their daemonic allies fled back to the Warp when Horus died. 

The attack on Terra hinged on two things:

1. Kill the Emperor. Let the daemons over run Terra. 

2. Take over Terra. Destroy the Astronomican. Let the daemons over run Terra.

Neither of those two were possible. At least not before the Loyalist reinforcements arrived. It was the right decision to break and run from Terra after the annihilation of Horus. 



ckcrawford said:


> I think there is some understanding why an Astartes Legion like the Night Lords would not be in that league of the poster boy stern, die to the last man, look.


Just a quick question, have you had the pleasure of reading ADB's Night Lords series?


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

Alpha legion
Nuff' said


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I think there is some understanding why an Astartes Legion like the Night Lords would not be in that league of the poster boy stern, die to the last man, look.


I don't really think we can say that about the Night Lords. Personally I think they would fight to the last to defend Night Haunter. I don't think they would fight to the death to defend his corpse, though I'm not totally sure, and they definitely would not fight to the death to defend his legacy or honour. He's already dead by the time UMs show up and so the Night Lords don't give a shit about Night Haunter anymore but even then they don't cut and run, they fight and lose.

To your point about broken Legions, I think you could argue that several Legions were broken by their relationship with their Primarch. Horus was such a powerfully charismatic man that his Sons basically couldn't function with out him. We see a similar dependence in the Blood Angels though, they just got lucky and went psycho instead of chicken. We can also see deeply unhealthy relationships between Night Haunter and Angron and their respective Legions, which I personally would characterize as a furthering of the cycle of abuse they received from their own 'father'. Whether this broken relationship is a contributing factor in the fall of those Legions isn't something I think we can say with any certainty but I think it definitely had less impact than the relationship between the Primarchs and the Emperor.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> . I don't think they would fight to the death to defend his corpse, though I'm not totally sure,


Oh, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't. After M'Shen killed him and took his head, no one really cared (minus Talos). It was only when they realized she took some of Curze's artifacts they went apeshit.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

hailene said:


> Oh, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't. After M'Shen killed him and took his head, no one really cared (minus Talos). It was only when they realized she took some of Curze's artifacts they went apeshit.


To be fair, they were ordered not to intervene. I'm not really disagreeing with you I just don't think that's a great example of how they would behave in a different situation.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Rereading the portion of _Soul Hunter_ that covers M'Shen's escape, it seems that the Night Lords were angry about Curze's death, even before they realized she had taken Curze's possessions.

Still, there seemed to rush to care for his body after the fact. Maybe they were too angry at the time to worry about his corpse. Then, of course, afterwards they got a little preoccupied with his possessions and the Eldar...

I'd still say that they probably didn't care all that much for his corpse.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

hailene said:


> Just a quick question, have you had the pleasure of reading ADB's Night Lords series?


For the record, yes. Fantastic read.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

hailene said:


> It's degrees. The people of Noctourne were the worst of the bad. As children, they were thieves, murderers, and rapists. It was a hell hole of a world.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Isn't this an assumption though? The walls of Terra were breached and the traitors were pouring in. With the Emperor pretty much a corpse (Horus dead of course) and Malcador part of KFC's menu, all the traitors had to do was take him off the Golden Throne. The Sons of Horus were broken and retreated like cowards, without any tactical or sound retreat. Wasn't that the point ADB wanted to get across? The traitor legions targeted the remains of the Sons of Horus for their actions.



> However, Horus is regarded as a failure by the Black Legion, and the Legion Wars that happen after the Scouring are a direct result of the Siege of Terra. It's not something that's seen a lot of airtime, but the Sons of Horus don't retreat in the face of a large or more dominant force. Their primarch dies, and despite the fact the Traitor Legions are on the edge of victory, the Sons of Horus retreat. They quite literally flee, concerned only with the fact that Horus has just died. This is what the lore's always stated.
> 
> This leaves the other Traitor Legions without the vanguard of their attack force, and the core of their leadership. The Sons of Horus are the first Legion to run from Terra, abandoning the others to Imperial guns. It's considered "a moment of weakness" to use the exact quote, that they pay for in time.
> 
> That translates later into the Legion Wars. When the Traitor Legions fight amongst themselves in the Eye of Terror, they heavily, heavily focus on the Sons of Horus, who they now despise as weaklings and cowards. The Sons of Horus are driven almost to extinction, and their last stronghold is destroyed.


-ADB 6th page *More on ADB for Black Legion*

By the way, I think that assumption was created by lore as a blue area and for discussion purposes. However, if you dwell on it a bit it becomes quite clear.


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## EvilAbedNadir (Oct 30, 2013)

Same size I'd say it's an even fight, but by now the Ultramarines have amassed a much MUCH larger company than the split-up Night Lords so the Night Lords wouldn't stand a chance.

Primarch vs Primarch is also pretty clear. Gulliman is a leader, not a fighter, and Kruze is one scary fellow. Let me make this short. Why does ruze win? Becuase he is the (allegially evil) GODDAMN BATMAN.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Isn't this an assumption though? The walls of Terra were breached and the traitors were pouring in.


They were indeed breached. They were indeed pouring...but too slowly. They weren't going to make it before the Loyalist reinforcements smashed the Traitors on the anvil of the Imperial Palace and the hammer of the Dark Angels, Ultramarines, and Space Wolves.

Also keep in mind that all of the Traitor's daemonic allies had fled at this point as well. The Traitor forces were significantly weakened while the Loyalist forces were, for the most part, in tact after the Final Battle.



ckcrawford said:


> ADB 6th page


I know ADB's working on the Black Legion story, so the canon may likely shift...but the latest Chaos Codex explicitly states that Horus's forces were not going to be able to win in time. To quote it, "The moment of Horus' victory was near,* but progress was too slow*, the the defenders still stubbornly resisted." And that's when he decided to bet everything on one throw of the die.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> But the idea that the Son's of Horus also ran like cowards after Terra, does get me questioning. Has ADB changed what Astartes really are?


AD-B hasn't altered the lore whatsoever in this case. It has always been the case that the Sons of Horus literally fled from the Siege of Terra following the Warmaster's death. AD-B has only reiterated it.




ckcrawford said:


> I'm having trouble deciding whether ADB is trying to depict a lot of the traitor legions as broken legions that finally meet their end when that main component that connects the legion together gets destroyed or where the battle goes "one fell swoop through some superior tactic" and _Heroic Victory_ Warhammer 40K Total War (the game).


A lot of the traitor Legions were broken and heavily flawed, especially in comparison to their loyalist counterparts. Horus himself, referring to the traitor Primarchs, said that he was the "master of broken monsters".


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Dorn is a respectible primarch and the fact that Konrad Curze almost killed him makes me put Konrad over Roboute.


Even now, people never fail to cite this one as if it's some amazing combat feat by Curze (I'm aware that the post I'm replying to is years-old) but I just had to explain this exact same incident on another forum

We don't know how Curze ended up on top of Dorn's unconscious body. What we do know is that Curze blacked out while Dorn was verbally berating him. It would seem likely that Curze flipped out and caught Dorn offguard (akin to how the Lion caught Russ offguard and knocked him out)


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