# Beating Chaos Marines...



## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

Simple as the title says. How do I beat a Chaos Marine vet? .

It's more tactics I need help on. My usual opponent likes to use Undivided, but packed with lots of crap, I mean, awesome crap, crap that makes me lose. And, well, to be honest, i'm sick of it, and need help, its basically tactics, i need, and best weapon layouts. Oh, and I play marines, and we're not able to use special characters . So, please give us a hand :so_happy:

Cheers
Marn AKA Adam


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

Hey dude,

Drop us something to work with here, I mean jeez... <chuckles> :wink:

Seriously, though... What's this cat take? Any particular unit giving you fits? What sort of tactics is he crushing you with (ie, is it a concentrated effort from multiple squads, or is it an uber-killy unit of death, that sort of thing). Is he taking the same stuff against you time after time, or is he tailoring his lists?

Let us know.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Yeah, we do indeed need more information. What units does he take? Is the army packed full of expensive models or are there tons and tons of basic infantry? Moar infow!!


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

The healing can only begin when you give us lists or characters...
Or when you field special characters as marines have great ones.


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## Black Crusader (Mar 17, 2008)

Poor Ultramarines. Well considering that CSM are an assault heavy force I'd say shooting at them is your best bet. Thats what all the SM players I play against do. They park their units in the back, send in a unit or two for bait and fire all of their chessy new weapons or abilities they got in the new codex. Or be a marine and met him in the middle of the battle field. If you still lose at least you will not have lost running from a fight. 



"Cast down the idols! Destroy the temples! Slay the priests! Show these fools that they worship nothing more than a rotting corpse!"


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## cooldudeskillz (Jun 7, 2008)

unfortunely space marines are goona have a hard time fighting a good chaos marine army played by a vet. What annoys me as a chaos player is terminators with storm sheilds and thunder hammers, a terminus can be a bitch aswell. but yes as said we need more info


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

I disagree about needing more info. I seem to be the sole voice for the notion that it's not what you bring, but how you play it. 

Chaos Space Marines, particularly of the Undivided persuasion, are extremely flexible since they come with bolt pistols, close combat weapons, and bolters. They're optimized to exploit the opponent's weakness. The best thing you can do is cover all your bases so there's not an obvious weakness in your army--whether ranged or close combat. That either makes your opponent split his forces, which makes them more managable for you, or commit to either ranged or close combat. Space Marines are as flexible as their traitor brethren in the grand scheme of things. If your opponent commits to either an assault (which is more likely) or ranged combat, then all you have to do is deny him the advantage in his committed role. 

For example, if your opponent decides he's going to commit to an assault, then you can remove the advantage he's got in combat from more volume of attacks by maneuvering so that the nearest unit for him to assault is one which can weather a round of combat-- and virtually any Space Marine unit can do it. Position it as such that the Chaos Space Marines will be held in place, and will either be forced into a tight formation when they wipe out your single squad so that you can unload flamers and other template weapons on them, or get them bogged down so much that their attacks can't possibly neutralize every threat you present them with at a time. 

It may sound slightly absurd, but if your opponent commits to an assault, and you don't want to think about things, then meeting him head-on and denying him the charge works fine (enough) too. For that first round, you're on even footings.

If your mentality is one of focusing more on massing AP3 or better weapons against your targets, then that's fine-- a lot of people play that way. Bring a couple Vindicators, and use them to screen Assault Squads or Rhino-borne Tactical Squads, depending on your preference. He's either going to have to commit to dealing with the vindicators, because they're an absurd threat to Space Marines, and thus probably ignore the Rhinos (or the Assault squads he plain can't see behind the tanks), letting you get the drop on him. If he opts to go after the remainder of your army, then that's fine too-- the Vindicators will even the score really quickly. 

Finally, if tactics just aren't your thing (and if they aren't then why are you playing these games?) then you could just try spamming Sternguard Veteran squads. The Vengance rounds look good on paper, but the number of times you'll overheat with them makes them not at all worth the risk. The 30'' range of the Kraken bolt or the 2+ wounding property of the Hellfire bolt both will serve you well against pretty much everybody. A lot of people don't realize that the most dangerous thing to a Space Marine army is volume of fire, not a few AP3 or better weapons. If you shoot a unit of Chaos Space Marines with hellfire rounds, they're going to be taking enough armor saves that they're going to feel it more than if you shot them a couple times with a plasma rifle.


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## Deneris (Jul 23, 2008)

I would respectfully disagree with you, SoH- Knowledge is power, and if we know what kind of "Undivided" his opponent uses, then we can best use what units he has at hand to defeat them.

"Undivided" CSMs can describe alot of units, from gun-heavy Havoc choices to hard-as-nails Chosen units with the ever-popular Plasma/Power weapons combo. I'll assume that this canny fellow CSM player takes a balance of Undivided units, with a minimum of two troop choices (Most likely favoring assault weapons over heavy weapons, and more than likely mounted in a rhino). Being Undivided, it's not too likely that you can easily make them run away, but at least they aren't fearless. 

Standard tactics against "normal" marines tend to work best versus "Undivided" Chaos marines, and as you play Ultras, you should know what tends to kill YOU will also kill HIM. With the new SM dex available, why not simply use his tactics against him (And probably do it better, with Sternguard/Vanguard being better than Chosen)?

In any case, more info on BOTH sides would be greatly appreciated :victory:.


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

SoH you have helped a lot. 

His force tends to be made up of nice CC based units, and Chosen always carry troop killing plasmas. He also takes lots of troops in rhinos, and always takes bikes, with power fists and meltas. He always tends to strike me in the most vunerable areas, for instance, he strikes a lot of my powerful units first eg. my dreads and vehcs. CC is a bitch, because no matter how hard I try I never seem to survive it, if I do, it's only for about 1 turn, even that leaves me with 3 or so marines left, so after it's easy pickings. He also likes to pack a lot of Havocs with heavy weapons like missile launchers and lascannons k:

My force tends to be made up of Commander, Terminator squad, X Dreads, X Troops, Assault Squad, and Devastators, and I am now going to start using tanks (Redeemer ftw!) 

Is this enough info? Or do you need more? 

EDIT: Here is the list he mainly uses, http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11824


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

If the link is correct then id try to make a Mech list to beat that. He has lots of plasma guns, but quite little AT weapons.

Land Riders, Dreads, Pred, Rhinos so you can have your units safe untill you want to use them. This also makes your army mobile which is good for filling gaps. Concentrate on knocking out his Rhinos early to force him to foot slog which will severe his effectivness alot, which gives you the initiative


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## Deneris (Jul 23, 2008)

He also seems to love powerfists, so the more power weapons that you can field, the better- Tis hard to use those fists if you've cut down the squad before it can hit. I belive Vanguard can have quite a few, as well as Honor Guard (Not sure as I haven't seen much of the new SM dex).

Another tactic that seems to work well against CSMs (Mine, at least) is drop pods filled with Sternguard. Those blighters drop in, and then unleash those nasty AP3 boltguns, usually at close range.

You might also want to look into a Librarian, as those are just plain scary with the new rules.

If you can, try a devestator squad with Plasma cannons- the bane of any CSM/SM army. With luck, you should be able to vaporize a good chunk of an enemy unit per turn. If not PCs, get as many MLs as you can to take out those rhinos at range. Then switch to frag shots- even CSMs can only make so many 3+ saves...


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## SpaNNerZ (Jun 17, 2008)

Have to respectfully disagree with you on that MaidenManiac.
The opponent does have a fair amount of anti tank, more than enough to take it too 5 or 6 vehicles, quite easily.IMO anyway.

Speed is this chaos armies tool of choice, Chosen infiltrating and Rhinos speeding up the field. Which means mainly you have to prioritize
I would suggest you counter a few units and let some actually hit you.
Things such as your termies should if you can be kept in waiting until they get close enough, then deep strike behind them and close in on them ASAP.
Dreads will suffer against this army, as of the numerous melta's available, so I'd suggest kitting them out for long range stuff,a.k.a lascannon missile launcher set up. 
With your devastators, I would suggest, plasma cannons the new no partials rul is gerat with them and they can give it to the rhinos as well. 
The assault marines should be used as counter assualt and should stand by only if one of the squads actually hits combat.
Last of all, I beleive you need some speeders, kitted with multi meltas, or maybe attack bikes, if they get a rhino stunned or immobilized thats a start.

Few things to remember though:
1) dont focus on primarily destroying the tanks, a stunned result is good enough to stop it moving for a turn
2)Prioritize its the best thing you can do, always worry bout the closest thing.
3)Last but not least, if you get a redeemer, that will make a mess of many things in a CSM list.

peace out:victory:


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

One very simple thing I'd like to suggest is that you do what you can to have more models on the table than he does. Chaos Space Marines are great troops for their cost, but Space Marines are just as good, if not better (only in certain areas, of course). I highly suggest that you take advantage of your Combat Tactics special rule when possible. A lot of Chaos Space Marine armies look to blow holes in a unit that it's just about to charge with powerful ranged weaponry. So if you get nailed with plasma cannons from Obliterators, opt to fall back to deny those Raptors or Possessed a charge. Since Space Marines will automatically rally as long as the enemy isn't too close, you can happily fall back, regroup and be right back in his face in your turn, meaning that you can (with a Tactical Squad or similar) fire your bolters at him, or move up, let him have it with pistols and assault weapons and then assault.


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

Deneris said:


> He also seems to love powerfists, so the more power weapons that you can field, the better- Tis hard to use those fists if you've cut down the squad before it can hit. I belive Vanguard can have quite a few, as well as Honor Guard (Not sure as I haven't seen much of the new SM dex).
> 
> Another tactic that seems to work well against CSMs (Mine, at least) is drop pods filled with Sternguard. Those blighters drop in, and then unleash those nasty AP3 boltguns, usually at close range.
> 
> ...


Sounds really good tactics, especially with the drop pods rules. Honour guard are good too, although, they do need a Chapter Master to go with them, not really much of a problem, but aswell as a Librarian and A Land Raider? thats already 500 points(ish) gone, my idea would be, to get the Commander + Honour guard and put them in a Land Raider, and then, Vanguard etc coming down after the drop pod on 2nd turn (after DP assault). 



SpaNNerZ said:


> Have to respectfully disagree with you on that MaidenManiac.
> The opponent does have a fair amount of anti tank, more than enough to take it too 5 or 6 vehicles, quite easily.IMO anyway.
> 
> Speed is this chaos armies tool of choice, Chosen infiltrating and Rhinos speeding up the field. Which means mainly you have to prioritize
> ...


Thanks for that, good sound advice, I can take 3 out of 4 plasma cannons (need another one), and I have a redeemer 



Katie Drake said:


> One very simple thing I'd like to suggest is that you do what you can to have more models on the table than he does. Chaos Space Marines are great troops for their cost, but Space Marines are just as good, if not better (only in certain areas, of course). I highly suggest that you take advantage of your Combat Tactics special rule when possible. A lot of Chaos Space Marine armies look to blow holes in a unit that it's just about to charge with powerful ranged weaponry. So if you get nailed with plasma cannons from Obliterators, opt to fall back to deny those Raptors or Possessed a charge. Since Space Marines will automatically rally as long as the enemy isn't too close, you can happily fall back, regroup and be right back in his face in your turn, meaning that you can (with a Tactical Squad or similar) fire your bolters at him, or move up, let him have it with pistols and assault weapons and then assault.


I get what you mean, really good advice, gonna take it all into account, but more models? Hmmm, I will see what I can do, I will attempt to take Vindicator and Redeemer too, see how they do, aswell as Sternguard and Vanguard (drop pod too!)

Also, what would you guys say to using a squad of Devs with Multi Meltas and Lascannons, in a Rhino zooming across the board? That might be a pain the arse, but it might serve me well, will see how the advice you give me turns out, then will see what to add/take


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## hippogryph (Oct 26, 2008)

The redeemer is an unholy terror to power armor armies Str. 6 AP3 ensures that unless you role an obscene amount of ones any one squad will be either dead or almost dead after your first round of shooting. This will also discourage him from assaulting your lines. But be aware his meltas and bikers with meltas will be gunning for it so take anything with significant short range anti-tank out and your bad boy will be free to roam and char.


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

hippogryph said:


> The redeemer is an unholy terror to power armor armies Str. 6 AP3 ensures that unless you role an obscene amount of ones any one squad will be either dead or almost dead after your first round of shooting. This will also discourage him from assaulting your lines. But be aware his meltas and bikers with meltas will be gunning for it so take anything with significant short range anti-tank out and your bad boy will be free to roam and char.


Orrrr, I let him set up first, then just blow them apart with my assault cannon


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## hippogryph (Oct 26, 2008)

Well that's the plan and of course this only works if you have a redeemer.


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

hippogryph said:


> Well that's the plan and of course this only works if you have a redeemer.


That I do, I am also going to have a Crusader before the week is out


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## Dessel_Ordo (Jul 28, 2008)

I'm gonna have to say mechanized isnt your answer.
I played a similair list to this, and it came down to one hell of a close match (I was on 1 obj, he was on one (infiltrating noise marines) and 2 was contested, but I had kill a lot more men then he did)

Start footsloggin' it. take at least 2 dev squads, one with ML's, the other with PC's. Give your Tacs either LC's or PC's, just stick to flamers for the spec. Have your ML's and LC's cheesecake the Rhinos on turn one, then hit the CSM (you should destroy the rhinos most of the time) with all of your plasma weaponry. The HW Combat Squads should be parked on an obj or two, and your other tac. squad elements can advance (as a group, as CSM still have an example in CC) to snag another obj. The next target for your heavy stuff should be the bikes, and the plasmas should move on to the raptors after harrasing the CSM on turn 1; the ML's should hit the bikes, and the LC's should go for the insta-kill on the oblit, then hit the lord or bikes. Get your SM into cover/on an objective and deny the CSM that go after them (hopefully the Raptors and Bikes should be mostly out by the time they can hit CC).

as for your own CC monsters, I'd say take some Vanguard with a chappy, give the vanguard some LC's (paired), no JP's though, just have them run in and clean up in CC (maybe a rhino for some speed)


I drew most of this from the 1500 pt game I played with damn near the same situation. hope this helped.


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## hippogryph (Oct 26, 2008)

Your opponent shouldn't have been able to infiltrate the noise marines. Unless your talking about chosen and they sure as heck aren't noise marines.


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## Dessel_Ordo (Jul 28, 2008)

yea, misstype, they were in reserve, and since we were in spearhead he had a table edge to use... hit an objective I had a loose grasp on pretty hard with them too...


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