# Old Marines



## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

so I just realized this.

Space Marines aren't immortal and they do detiriate just at a much slower rate than normal humans so this leads me to my epiphany

when a Marine becomes so old that he hinders the army what happens to him? I would expect that after so many battles if a marine lives that long they would just hook em up to a dreadnaught

any other opinions?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Ever hear of desk duty?


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Ever hear of desk duty?


:laugh: thats all I have to say but it won't let me post it for being under 10 characters so I decided to post this extensive sentence on it


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

i think most marines who reach a certain age will go on a final crusade or something like that, in the novel Angels of Darkness the apothecary is on about doing something like that as hes 600 yrs old(i think im remembering it rightly).
i think its also down to the custom of the chapter, one example i can think of is the novel Salamander, where one the marines(cant remember his name) leaves everything behind and goes on a journey in the wild lands of Nocturne. 
I don't many old marines are interned just because of old age, i think that's reserved for certain hero's of the chapter.


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

yanlou said:


> i think most marines who reach a certain age will go on a final crusade or something like that, in the novel Angels of Darkness the apothecary is on about doing something like that as hes 600 yrs old(i think im remembering it rightly).
> i think its also down to the custom of the chapter, one example i can think of is the novel Salamander, where one the marines(cant remember his name) leaves everything behind and goes on a journey in the wild lands of Nocturne.
> I don't many old marines are interned just because of old age, i think that's reserved for certain hero's of the chapter.


well my thought was that to live the thousands of years needed for your body to detiriate, through all those campaigns and warriors they would become such a high rank and then enter the dread, but you're right about the apothecary and salamander I completely forgot about them

thanks for contributing :victory:k:


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Do Astartes really just deteriorate over time? From the HH novels the opinion of the Marines is that they are functionally immortal; where has this changed? I ask out of real curiosity, not trying to be snarky at all.
I know that the process of making a Marine has become debased and the true meaning lost to mindless repetition and ritual, at least for some Chapters, but has this been shown to reduce the life-expectancy from the HH-era Astartes?
I know that Dante is considered long-lived, an exception amongst even Astartes, but- actually, I'm rambling now. Could someone let me know the fluff-piece that says what life-span Marines can expect? Cheers.

GFP


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

All it really says in the marine codex is that most (or all) astartes will die on the battlefield or in space.

The HH series early books make several mentions of astartes supposedly being immortal, but there is a Luna wolf (Qruze?) who is an old terran marine and no longer takes active roles as often as he used to. 

It seems to vary depending on source, possibly due to differences in chapters, or maybe just writer inconsistencies, but I don`t think there is a set lifespan for any given space marine. All we have for sure is that the BA seem to live longer, and the traitors in the EOT seem to live indefinitely.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I got to thinking, surely over the millennia Astartes have become more human- the geneseed they use has been filtered through hundreds of other Astartes, surely over time the inherent mortality of the humans that become Space Marines would result in some sort of deterioration of the geneseed.

Whereas the heresy era Marines would have had their geneseed almost directly from the font of their genetic lineage- their would be no deterioration.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Going off your theory there perhaps explains how the Blood Angels live so long? as they all get blood transfusions from the Sanguinary Priests who got transfusions from the ones before them etc leading to Sanguinius. Sure its been filtered down aswell but it's still gonna be a little more pure than the others


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Well currently the oldest 'living' space marine is Comander Dante of the Blood Angels. He's comanded them for over 1100 years now given current fluff, so is much older then that, and he's still up and active.

I think most space marines will die in battle before they get too old and become a hinderance.

Bjorn the Fell-handed is the oldest still active Loyalist space marine,being over 10,000 years old now. But being a venerable dreadnaught, he has been known to have 1000year long sleeps.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Qurze was not inactive, He was still active captain of the third company of the luna wolves. And later possibly in the inquisition. Garro was of similar age. The gradual deteoriation of their legion geneseed has an effect but what that is I don't know.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

It may not be Qruze I am thinking of. But I am sure there was an older marine who the others took less seriously because of his age. 

Maybe Maloghurst? Fuck it, I can`t be bothered to check right now. I`ll do it later. Right now, I am going to sleep. :so_happy:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

@ GrizBe,
No, the oldest "living" loyalist marines are the members of the 13th great company.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Though they're only the oldest chronologically, maybe not biologically- time is a funny thing in the warp after all.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

This is true.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think that for the most part, Marines can pretty much replace old organs, and useless parts with the technology they have. So at least for the most part, Marines can last. Though, some marines like that apothecary mentioned in _Salamander_ sometimes get a little tired from some aspect of war. In the apothecaries case, he was pretty pissed that so many men, women, astartes had died and he was pretty sad he couldn't save them. He probably along with most of his company have regrets that in neither case of their captain dieing they could save them.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> It may not be Qruze I am thinking of. But I am sure there was an older marine who the others took less seriously because of his age.
> 
> Maybe Maloghurst? Fuck it, I can`t be bothered to check right now. I`ll do it later. Right now, I am going to sleep. :so_happy:


That was Qruze. The half heard. Just finished reading that book for the third time.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

In one of the Blood Raven novels there's a librarian who is pretty much retired and working on an archeological dig. Can't quite remember which one though. However, IIRC in the 3rd ed SW codex it was alluded to that marines just kept getting tougher the older they got. Or maybe that was just SWs.


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## Waaagh_Bong (Aug 10, 2010)

this might be really off, but what about familys? has a marine ever had a family out side of his chapter?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

:shok::nono: God that brings up some horrible memories of some crappy fan fluff. They are basically warrior monks, for the most part. So no, they aren’t allowed to have families.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> In one of the Blood Raven novels there's a librarian who is pretty much retired and working on an archeological dig. Can't quite remember which one though. However, IIRC in the 3rd ed SW codex it was alluded to that marines just kept getting tougher the older they got. Or maybe that was just SWs.


That's the 2nd book in the blood ravens trilogy...can't remember name right now


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

Waaagh_Bong said:


> this might be really off, but what about familys? has a marine ever had a family out side of his chapter?


I'm not even sure if they are capable after being implanted. I know that in some of the SW books the young pups get all hot under the collar when there is a female around and i can't see why they would loose their junk as it's going to boost their testosterone levels but in very few books do the Astartes seem to have any interest in the fairer sex at all. Wether this is a psycho docrine that has been programmed into them or just that they are now too focussed on being the fist of the emporer, who can say. 

I don't think they are allowed families...it would be a gross conflict of interest, imagine what would have happened at the battle of macragge if the Ultra's had been worried about the wife and kid whilst they were trying to hold the polar defences.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Waaagh_Bong said:


> this might be really off, but what about familys? has a marine ever had a family out side of his chapter?


(Ninjad)
Marines don't 'settle down' and have a nice family in the burbs, they still have relatives.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

To add on to the previous reasons; marines can be away for centuries at a time, it would be impractical to have families given such a long deployment.


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## Tolisk (Aug 23, 2010)

*space marine comes home to see a few skeletons waveing at him*


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

shaantitus said:


> That was Qruze. The half heard. Just finished reading that book for the third time.


Alright. I`ll have to read again myself probably. k:



Ultra111 said:


> That's the 2nd book in the blood ravens trilogy...can't remember name right now


Dawn of War: Ascension. Librarian Jonas Urelie I believe. He was an older Librarian, but not to the point where he was any less effective. If anything, he was better, easily outclassing the other mentioned librarians in the series. 

But I am not sure about his physical prowess. He struck me as more of a mystic combatant than as a warrior.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Jonas seemed to rely more on his psychic powers to fight. He did out-class the other librarians but that makes sense because as he grew older he would have gained more experience and his knowledge and control would have increased (can't remember properly but Im pretty sure that at one stage he even makes himself levitate for a bit.)
Physically, he was still in good shape. I remember at some stage a member of adeptus sororitas even remarks that he had more strength in one of his fingers than a normal man has in his entire upper body.


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## jack (Oct 30, 2008)

Id say they would probably return to the chapter to train scouts or to act as a kind of home guard. If a space marine was really old then i imagine he'd be the last left of his squad and putting him into another squad commanded by someone way younger than him would probably be insulting.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

But does it happen? Like has been said Dante is well over 1,100 years old, much much older now and he's still one of the most able and active Marines in service, not showing any sign of slowing down or 'retiring' I know Blood Angels are said to have a greater longeviety than most, but even so


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I don't think that the re-use of geneseed will have any type of 'filtering' through being used in multiple Astartes. Each Chapter has to send a tithe to the Mechanicus, so if any issues come up with the geneseed in general, or even a particular zygote, then it can be corrected; either it will be replaced completely from the stocks held in cryo-stasis, or thrown-out and a new geneseed/zygote will replace it. To my mind, any deterioration in the efficacy of the geneseed in creating Astartes is due to the process of implantation on initiation. This has become mindless reptition and the actual science of the process lost to ritual. In fact many of the rituals used will have a detrimental effect on the neophyte, meaning that the outcome will less than optimal. (I believe I read that in the IA on the process of making Marines.)
So, again to my view, geneseed-wise the 40k Astartes will be just as functionally immortal as their Great Crusade-era counterparts. Any differences will probably be slight and probably not noticed because most Astartes die in combat before any age-related issues become apparent. I would imagine that the issues with geneseed/zygote deterioration will be more pronounced in some Chapters- there will be those who don't really care about the science, they just want more Marines; there will be those whose Apothecaries will take a very great interest in what, and how, things are going on and so will have less problems, not needing the Mechanicus to keep re-supplying them with new or repaired geneseed.
As for older marines stepping out of combat roles. I could easily see this as being some sort of sabbatical. The fluff for Dante talks about how he is feeling the ennui of having lived so long, having seen everything and done everything, repeated hundreds or thousands of times. Even for biological weapons, Astartes still have something of their Humanity, and the sameness of combat will start to tell, dulling thier minds and making them bored. Once a Marine gets to a certain age they are probably made to take an extended break from their main role; maybe they go to teach the Scouts, maybe they step aside from leadership and allow someone new to be blooded, maybe they take on a research role in the Apothecarion or Librarius or Reclusiam, or even go on to a diplomatic role between other Chapters/Guard/Administratum or even go out with a Rogue Trader.

TL;DR I think that Astartes are still functionally immortal, except for those from Chapters whose implantation procedures have become debased; combat, however, will still be the primary (and hugely more common) cause of Astartes death. Old Marines will be made to change jobs regularly to keep them mentally fresh which would explain the fluff instances of Marines doing things other than being part of a Chapter's combat strength.

Phew, that was a long, rambling one!

GFP


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## mbatemplar (May 28, 2010)

Acutally, doesn't dante require some aid in getting around. If I remember correctly in the blood angel series, they seem to describe him wearing a non termitor suit that aids in his mobility and has hissing pistons to help his legs move. Kinda like braces for spaces marines. 

Also, the oldest space marine is 10,000 years old as evidenced in the book salamander. Mind you, he wasn't going to enter a tap dancing competition any time soon, but he was alive (he couldn't walk and his muscles had atrophied). 

Note: the atrophy could have more to do with being inactive for such a long time than with old age, but this begs the question why was there a need to hibernate at all? The only conclusion was that only through hibernation could he survive long enough to be rescued.


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

I almost cried in that book


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## Turkeyspit (Jun 11, 2010)

Waaagh_Bong said:


> this might be really off, but what about familys? has a marine ever had a family out side of his chapter?


Space Marines are rendered sterile through the process of gene-enhancement. 

The family from which the Space Marine was initially born would still be around (until they die of old age) but a Space Marine isn't exactly given shore leave or anything similar with which to visit them. In addition, most Marines find that they lose all memory of their lives pre-enhancement thanks to the hypno-conditioning they receive. This is by design: no attachments, no distractions, no weaknesses - nothing to get in a SM's way of fulling his duty to the Emperor and his Chapter.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Very off-topic, PM him if you want to discuss academic achievement
Baron


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

aboytervigon said:


> jack just cause your sig annoys me im smarter than 93.79 percent of the population and im 14


wow, could you have put a more arrogant or unfounded statement?


Back on topic, which book is this where Dante needs extra help to keep moving? 

Havent read Salamander either, but a 10,000 year old marine? really? you say he was all atrophied and evrything?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

aboytervigon said:


> jack just cause your sig annoys me im smarter than 93.79 percent of the population and im 14


How nice. Shall I get you a sticker?


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Isnt Sigismund, the Champion of the Black Templars among one of the oldest loyalist Astartes?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Unfortunately, old Sig is toes up to the sun-as it were.


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## Warsmith40 (Feb 8, 2010)

I've read multiple different stories where marines either age or are functionally immortal. For the most part, this is simply a result of writers wanting different effects on the readers in their novels. However, many marines that reach excessive age have received battle wounds or had thier bodily systems abused to the point where even the superhuman physiology starts breaking down or working under par. That would explain the elder, decrepit marines. On the other hand, Dante would be a prime example of a Space Marine who managed to come out of all the hellish scrapes that an Astartes endures with minor injuries, preserving his health and thus longevity. The Blood Angel gene-traits simply aid in this regard.

As for what Marines might do after age/injury, serving in the chapter Librarium or as a recruiter for the chapter would seem likely. The knowledge they acrued during their years of service would be a valuable resource to the chapter.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Unfortunately, old Sig is toes up to the sun-as it were.


Im not quite following you there?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Pushing up daisies


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

I cannot remember where I saw it but I definitely read something about a SM can degrade to a point where he becomes detrimental to his squad. For the life of me I cannot remember where I read this but it is bugging the hell out of me now  What they did with these type of SM wasn't covered from memory but I would imagine if they were a real chapter battlefield asset? They would wouldn't want to lose them. I would imagine they may go into some sort of training/advisory role. If they were a average SM I would imagine some sort of more mundane Fortress duty calling or maybe they even take that "cursed earth walk" although that could be a real waste of geneseed etc. It would be good if someone out there had some hard detail on this.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

This is a bit of a thread necro but i have something to add. I have been reading Angels of darkness by gav thorpe. In it Boreas is interrogating one of the fallen in the current 40k time period. This fallen's name is Astelan and he was a chapter master of the Dark angels. He states that he was a chapter master active at the time of the heresy and that he had met the Emp prior to the heresy. That would make him a fully functional 10000 year old space marine. I would also think that in his case the Eye of terror longevity effect would not apply.(He does not do any chaos dabbling and has issues with psykers.) 

Admittedly he is slain at the end of the book but he made it to at least 10,000years old.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The fallen were thrown through time and space, so, while chronologically his birth and death were separated by a period of roughly 10k years, it does not specifically mean that he has aged 10k years. 

So, although he didn't spend time in the eye, he could still have experienced a similar effect.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Humans, with the proper treatment, can live up to 600-700 years without too much trouble. (Per the Eisenhorn omnibus.)

I imagine a Space Marine, with his much more resilient body, could, with bionics and rejuv-treatments, function many times this.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

shaantitus said:


> This is a bit of a thread necro but i have something to add. I have been reading Angels of darkness by gav thorpe. In it Boreas is interrogating one of the fallen in the current 40k time period. This fallen's name is Astelan and he was a chapter master of the Dark angels. He states that he was a chapter master active at the time of the heresy and that he had met the Emp prior to the heresy. That would make him a fully functional 10000 year old space marine. I would also think that in his case the Eye of terror longevity effect would not apply.(He does not do any chaos dabbling and has issues with psykers.) Admittedly he is slain at the end of the book but he made it to at least 10,000years old.


I wish we had an 'incorrect' buzzer like in a game show.

Astelan was thrown through time when he was sucked through the rip in the warp on Caliban and deposited in the 41st millennium- he isn't 10,000 years old, in fact he is as old as he was in the 31st millennium, just as gen said.



Plus he doesn't die at the end of the book, he's imprisoned.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> I wish we had an 'incorrect' buzzer like in a game show.


That's the best idea i've heard all day - Get on it!


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

They probably become trainers/recruiters or base commanders on recruiting worlds or none serious garrison worlds.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

The first thing to remember about this topic is that we're talking about a game hobby that has spawned a science fiction series going back about two decades.

I don't say this to be snarky, but because it's important to remember that the universe of 40k and its mythos have evolved a great deal over time. Many of the authors themselves have stated that they were not necessarily completely familiar with the game's background when they wrote their stories.

So, for instance, we can reach waaay back, and read William King's "Deathwing" story. A fun story, to be sure, but where the topic of Astartes mortality is concerned, raise your hands if you think Mr. King's description of a Dark Angel close to dying of old age--and certainly combat ineffective--barely into his second century of life. Bill King isn't a bad writer; his editor, on the other hand, should have been more familiar with the subject matter. At the end of the day, it's just an example of fluff not reconciling with the intent behind the material. Such is life.

Newer fluff included references to Dante having lived for more than a millennium, and still being a feared warrior. Incidentally, I don't recall him being described as needing some sort of exoskeleton to maneuver around outside of battle. The latest description of him that I recall was in "Red Fury", where he gets around just fine and is described as merely wearing robes (at the Chapter's Fortress-Monastery).

Similarly, Logan Grimnar has been the Great Wolf of the Space Wolves for more than seven centuries. Nothing about his age indicates physical frailty.

Finally, the newest fluff pointing at Astartes longevity comes from the first few books of the Horus Heresy. "Horus Rising", in particular, makes statements about Imperial scientists whose focus is the longevity of Astartes, making claims about their subjects being effectively immortal.

There's really no reason to discount those assertions. Gerontology in large part deals with observation of the natural processes that lead to aging. There are specific, observable cycles that occur within our bodies/cells that indicate our aging process. If those processes do not occur, then the assertion of "effectively immortal" would be correct. If they do occur, but do at a rate that is not truly observable (which would make their statement technically incorrect, but not dishonest), then the effective lifespan of an Astartes would be far greater than Dante's.

Why the statement of Blood Angels being longer-lived, then?

I think the answer to that has to do with two factors:
1. The process by which a Chapter implants an Aspirant with said Gene-seed
2. Additional material used (that is, in addition to the Gene-seed)

Where the first is concerned, the original Index Astartes article on the creation of a Space Marine is rather clear: the Adeptus Astartes have largely polluted the creation process with rituals, superstition, and a varying degree of ignorance regarding what they're doing. Any number of side-effects could occur from this (and they do; consider the various Chapters who have missing implants/organs), and _cosmetic effects_ such as a Marine not looking perpetually youthful could easily come about.

Where the second factor is concerned, consider the Blood Angels and the Space Wolves. Both have leaders who greatly exceed the ages of other Chapters' prominent figures (both Calgar and Cassius of the Ultramarines are far younger). Blood Angels "live longer", though, and Space Wolves become "Grey Hunters" not even a century into their existence.

I posit that this has to do with the additional material involved in their creation. Blood Angels don't live longer; they are enfused with the blood of Sanguinius, which grants them with a more pleasing countenance. Remember the original Blood Angels Index Astartes, which described the process by which irradiated, twisted-looking wretches from Baal Secundus became statuesque, handsome paragons of the Human ideal? Similarly, it's not like Space Wolves get older, faster; they require the Canis Helix to activate their Gene-seed. The Canis is responsible for a variety of mutations, some of which are cosmetic (leathery skin, tufts of hair sprouting through the body, gradually greying hair and elongated fangs), others of which are highly beneficial (enhanced senses).

Finally, we have the instance of the Salamander in the first book based on that Chapter (by Nick Kyme, IIRC), who survived for _ten thousand years._ People correctly point out that his armor was fused and his limbs had atrophied. I wonder, though, if this was due to the natural degradation of his body (aging), or more because he had spent ten millennia hardly ever moving.

To sum up: I believe that, within the context of existing in an imperfect (as are all human endeavors) body of fiction, the assertion of the Crusade-era Imperial scientists was correct. Astartes _are_ effectively immortal, and, absent misunderstandings between authors and editors, are meant to live out lifespans that, at the very least, exceed those of Grimnar and Dante (who are both over a millennium old, and show no sign of slowing down).

In actual practice, however, the overwhelming majority of Astartes die violently long before they achieve an age even a fraction of Dante's. Similarly, their violent lives will ensure that very few maintain a pristine appearance--scars, augmetics, burnt skin, etc., will detract from this.

Finally, there will likely be some Astartes who endure such wounds over the course of their careers that they may very well become effectively crippled or reduced in mobility without actually dying. I would say such Astartes would become mentors and teachers at their Chapter's Fortress Monastery, overseeing Aspirants and such.

Cheers,
P.


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## Brother Emund (Apr 17, 2009)

Can you imagine a Chapter 'releasing' and old, thread-bare Marine, back into the community after he has served his time!

"Who's the old git sitting at the end of the bar, the miserable one who always talks into his beer?"
"That's Old man Thorak, he used to be a Space Marine. I would give him a wide birth if I were you. He's got a very bad temper"
"Ahhh, he looks so sad. All he needs is a hug", saunters over to the bar.
"Hi, how are you? My name is......" BLAMMM, THUMP, CRUSH
""Feck off!"


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Well, in _A Thousand Sons_ it was stated that astartes are believed to be functionally immortal but that at the time it was still too early to tell, though Ahriman had remarked at one stage that he was absolutely no different than he had been two centuries prior to the events of the book. If you look at that, then I'd take a guess and say that astartes were originally indeed meant to be immortal. I mean, I can't see you not aging at all for 200 years and then suddenly start to. That being said, as others have already mentioned, the knowledge of the implantation process has degraded and is now filled with rituals and similar BS, so maybe because of that marines aren't as long lived as the were originally supposed to be.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

The Luna Wolf called the half heard was very old and was basically dismissed in everything he said but they still left him in a privileged position.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

The question is, though, if older (or simply wound-crippled warriors in Phoebus's case) marines just chilled in the fortress-monastery are immortal, why don't we have 3000+ year old marines laying around? Surely the death rate of most marines sitting at home is fairly low, right?

Sure, there are occasional hiccups like with the Crimsonfists, but I imagine those are the slim minority.

Plus, if such warriors were around, would they still take up one of the 1000 slots within a chapter? Would it not be better to step down and allow a fully capable marine take their place? Some of the older Chapters could be riddled with so many semi-functional marines that their battle-worthiness would be compromised. 

On a fun note, I was reading one of the old White Dwarfs and at that point of the fluff several Loyalist Primarchs stuck around the Imperium after the Heresy. But after 1400 years they all died due to old age. Funny stuff, eh?


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## Brother Emund (Apr 17, 2009)

They could build something like the Royal Hospital at Chelsea, and fill it full of old marines from every Chapter, who wander around all day in bright red power armour, attending flower shows and veteran reunions! :drinks:


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> The Luna Wolf called the half heard was very old and was basically dismissed in everything he said but they still left him in a privileged position.


That's not the whole story, though.

Rogal Dorn dismisses Iacton Qruze as a "relic". Qruze, though revealed to be a Cthonian in "False Gods", is stated to have been a veteran of the Unification Wars, before Horus was ever found. I posit that, whatever Qruze is (perhaps a proto-Astartes, something between Thunder Warrior and Space Marine), he is not the same as the rest of his Crusade-era comrades.



hailene said:


> The question is, though, if older (or simply wound-crippled warriors in Phoebus's case) marines just chilled in the fortress-monastery are immortal, why don't we have 3000+ year old marines laying around? Surely the death rate of most marines sitting at home is fairly low, right?


I think the real issue is that the death rate of most Space Marines, period, is so high (over a long enough period of time) that the odds of earning that kind of retirement are ludicrously low. The kind of wounds that would cripple an Astartes would generally also kill him.



> Plus, if such warriors were around, would they still take up one of the 1000 slots within a chapter?


That's not an issue. A Chapter has well over a thousand Space Marines to begin with. Each Company has 10 Squads of 9 Astartes and a Sergeant. But it also has a Captain, a Chaplain, and a Command Squad. Right there, you busted the 1,000 man limit, and we haven't even gotten to the Librarius, the Apothecarion, the Reclusiam, the Armorium, etc.

Cheers,
P.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

The thing is, Dante is said to be the oldest Marine around. At 1100 years. And just quoting you from your last post:



Phoebus;774897
Finally said:


> And if such marines were to become tutors or mentors AND they were immortal, then surely we could have some marines live past Dante's 1100 years. They may not be the norm, but surely out of the active 1,000,000 marines out there, some mentor or tutor would be rather old, no?
> 
> And I'm not 100% that each company is made of 10 squads? I have to run to school right now, so if someone would be kind enough to look it up it'd be appreciated.
> 
> (I personally thought they were made up of 9 squads, plus the company squad, then 5 left over for extras.)


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

They also get stuck in dreadnaughts don't they? Take Bjorn the Fell Handed, he's been around since Leman Russ was still about.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

hailene said:


> And if such marines were to become tutors or mentors AND they were immortal, then surely we could have some marines live past Dante's 1100 years. They may not be the norm, but surely out of the active 1,000,000 marines out there, some mentor or tutor would be rather old, no?


I posited that they would likely be doing that IF they lived on, crippled and combat-ineffective. I also offered that it's highly unlikely that they would live on after such injuries that would cripple them regardless.

Put it this way. We know, via fluff, that Astartes can survive losing limbs (heck, the Iron Hands PREFER bionic limbs), blindness ("Brothers of the Snake"), etc. Given this, what kind of injury could render them incapable of fighting? Probably some sort of massive torso trauma. Surviving that would be incredibly rare.

Besides, the whole 40k universe is a mass of myth, superstition, and ignorance. Dante and Grimnar are known because they are legends in their own time. Why would anyone know about some poor rank-and-file Space Marine who got crippled during his first couple of centuries and has been doing nothing but sitting at the Fortress Monastery since then?



> And I'm not 100% that each company is made of 10 squads? I have to run to school right now, so if someone would be kind enough to look it up it'd be appreciated.


They are. Codex Battle Companies have ten squads: 6 Tactical, 2 Assault, and 2 Devastator. The Sixth and Seventh Reserve Companies each have 10 Tactical squads that also train on combat bikes and land speeders, respectively. The Eighth and Ninth have ten squads of Assault and Devastator Marines, respectively. The Tenth has ten squads of Scouts.

Of course, that's theoretical combat power. The reality is that they probably already have open slots, to reflect battle losses, etc.

Cheers,
P.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Think Dante is quite past the 1,100 year point by a long way aswell. 

Qruze always confused me. He seems to be showing signs of age, not just his features, and the thoughts of others, but in the fight agaisnt Maggard it seemed to indicate he wasn't as fast as before. And if we dismiss the fact that he was a Cthonian and was actually a Terran and one of the first Luna Wolves as per his background it still doesn't really fit. Garro, Erebus(think it mentioned he was a terran in the First Heretic) and others who have fought since the beggining are showing no such signs of ageing like Qruze is. As for Dorns comment, i don't think he meant it like he was a relic of an older version of marines, i think he was just biting at his age in his anger or trying to hit a nerve


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I think Dorn meant precisely that. I can't think of any other way to explain how Qruze alone shows his age and signs of physical infirmity (at least when compared to other Astartes).

I have no idea how to reconcile "False Gods" (Qruze being a Cthonian) with "Horus Rising" (Qruze being a veteran of the Unification Wars) unless I either accept that sometimes editors fail to pick up inconsistencies or that Cthonia is close enough to Terra that Qruze was able to get there without Warp travel.

There is, though another option that I can't believe I didn't consider before...

The entire Thirteenth Great Company of the Space Wolves was made up of Russ' Fenrisian lieutenants, men who were far beyond the safe age for someone to become an Astartes. Their appearance reflects this. What if Qruze also became an Astartes as an older man and somehow managed to make it? Any lack of strength he might suffer from compared to other Astartes might have to do with complications related to his unorthodox implantation process.


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## Mohawk (Nov 2, 2010)

I was under the impression that marines crippled beyond physically fighting again were sent to serve in the fleet, I think that was the case in one of the Ultramarine novels with Lord Admiral Lazlo Tiberius, it was a long time ago that I read it however so I could be mistaken.

I'm not sure if its been mentioned yet but something that bothers me a little about Astartes reaching 1000-1500+ years of age is that, their life is war. After so many thousands of battles they are going to end up being more machine than man from the injuries they sustain, once they reach that point there is very little left of them to deteriorate apart from their mind, so would they not suffer the same as dreadnoughts do?


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## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

Something which may interested you from Imperial Armour 9 - The Badab War (Note, this is a direct extract, and thus has spoilers. I have forgotten how to do the spoiler tags, but it is nothing serious, anyway.) 

_Worthy of note to this record is the nature and history of Knight-Commander Stibor Lazaerek, Grand Master of the Fire Hawks during the Badab War. At the outset of the conflict, Lazaerek was more than six centuries old and in failing health thanks to numerous war wounds accumulated in his long career._

This, to me, suggests that overtime the Astartes do begin to fail in health. I imagine that it is particular to each Chapter and their Bloodlines, with Blood Angels seeming to have more longevity than say, an Imperial Fist..


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm sure they would have made more of a point of it if Qruze wasn't actually an astartes. The proto astartes from what i gather are quite different to actual astartes, and without wanting to read the first three books again at the moment i'm certain that Qruze is decribed as an astartes and refrences made to his astartes enhanced physiology. I'm not even sure about him being a marine like the 13th company, it makes sense if he was Cthonian and was highly devoted to Horus like the 13th company were to Russ and willing to take such an enormous risk. But the first batch of space marines would have all been made of suitable candidates, there would be no point in bothering with older humans who would probably not survive, it would jsut be counter productive. Either way they need to sort Qruzes backstory out, he simply can't be a veteran of the start of the crusade and be Cthonian


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## Anfo (Jul 17, 2009)

I read somewhere that marines were _immortal but not invincible_(I believe those were the words used). Meaning they can live forever but they die because of the constant waring.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Mohawk,

I would posit that's exactly why warriors like Dante and Grimnar are the exception and not the rule. Most Astartes are not of the same caliber as them, and as a result don't end up living that long. I think that reconciles well with Dark Angel brought up in regards to the Badab War Imperial Armour quote.

Angel of Blood,

It's a tough fit, I agree. Ultimately, my pseudo-theory merely aims to reconcile the various bits of fluff out there.

The easy answer is that Qruze IS an Astartes, he simply is a couple hundred years older than the rest of his fellows being a Unification Wars veteran, and he looks correspondingly older. Thus it follows that Astartes can die of old age, that Blood Angels do have greater longevity thanks to the blood of Sanguinius, and Logan Grimnar is just a freakish anomaly of long life and health.

The only thing we have to do then is ignore the quote about the Imperial scientists in "Horus Rising", who proclaimed the Astartes to be effectively immortal. The thing that bothers me about this is that they couldn't just make a bone-headed mistake like that. It's not like they wouldn't notice that the Astartes cell-death cycle is, say, six-seven times longer than that of a human as opposed to an _absence_ of a cell-death cycle.

I suppose we can assume they would have lied. But why? There's no point to that kind of propaganda being spread. It certainly wouldn't have mattered to the Astartes themselves, who were mentally indoctrinated to begin with. They knew they weren't invincible, and their cavalier attitude toward death was one of scorning the consequences of it, not thinking they couldn't die.

Cheers,
P.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

dark angel said:


> Something which may interested you from Imperial Armour 9 - The Badab War (Note, this is a direct extract, and thus has spoilers. I have forgotten how to do the spoiler tags, but it is nothing serious, anyway.)
> 
> _Worthy of note to this record is the nature and history of Knight-Commander Stibor Lazaerek, Grand Master of the Fire Hawks during the Badab War. At the outset of the conflict, Lazaerek was more than six centuries old and in failing health thanks to numerous war wounds accumulated in his long career._
> 
> This, to me, suggests that overtime the Astartes do begin to fail in health. I imagine that it is particular to each Chapter and their Bloodlines, with Blood Angels seeming to have more longevity than say, an Imperial Fist..


For spoiler tags, you just type [SPOILER*] and then [/SPOILER*] without the stars.



Like this


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Reading through Horus Rising to find some info on Qruze, and he's got to be a Terran. To quote 

"a captain in the Legion since its inception, his prominence entirely eclipsed once Horus had been repatriated and given command by the Emperor. He was a product of another era, a throwback to the years of the Unification Wars and the bad old times, stubborn and slightly cantankerous, a vestigial trace of the way the Legion had gone about things in antiquity"

So from this he absoloutely has to be a Terran, being around from the very first day of the Legions inception and then moved out of the spotlight once Horus was found. I still think he is a full astartes however, still can't explain how he got supposedly old though.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Angel of Blood said:


> Reading through Horus Rising to find some info on Qruze, and he's got to be a Terran. To quote
> 
> "a captain in the Legion since its inception, his prominence entirely eclipsed once Horus had been repatriated and given command by the Emperor. He was a product of another era, a throwback to the years of the Unification Wars and the bad old times, stubborn and slightly cantankerous, a vestigial trace of the way the Legion had gone about things in antiquity"
> 
> So from this he absoloutely has to be a Terran, being around from the very first day of the Legions inception and then moved out of the spotlight once Horus was found. I still think he is a full astartes however, still can't explain how he got supposedly old though.


 He was probably from the first ever batch and a captain or something, so from then on he just survived longer than any of his fellow marines and being a captain he wouldn't of been that much in danger compared to a normal marine.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

I don't think the imperial scientists knew for sure that astartes were immortal. Like I mentioned earlier, Ahriman says in _A Thousand Sons_that it was assumed that they were immortal but that at that stage (only 200 years into the crusade) it was too early to tell for sure. I mean, a modern astartes can easily live for 200 years providing they don't die in battle.

As for Cruze, maybe he just looked old because he was battle worn. I remember in the one book, can't rememner which one, the one remembrancer remarked that Loken looked like he had aged several years in the space of a few months while taking part in a particularly brutal campaign against another human empire.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Angel of Blood, 

True, but then "False Gods" specifically states he is Cthonian.

Chompy Bits,

When it comes to a normal person making a casual observation, sure, it might not look like someone aged in the few years Ahriman or Garro, etc., spent on Terra. We're talking about scientists, though, who would have made that observation following clinical analysis. If your cells aren't featuring the decay/destruction cycles that indicate aging, then they're not. Aging six, seven, or eight times slower isn't something you're going to miss.

Either way, I had an opportunity to check out the first Index Astartes article again, specifically the ones on the Codex Astartes and the making on Space Marines. It states that "administrative" functions are often undertaken by Marines of "advanced" years. This pretty much correlates with what the Blood Angels Index Astartes article states about them being long-lived.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Aye both False Gods and Galaxy in Flames do. You just would have thought one of the two authors might have looked over Horus Rising to see that he is blantenly a Terran. Oh well, what can you do


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