# Dan Abnett really dropped the ball with "Legion"



## Moriar the Forsaken

I just don't find the ending convincing at all, despite having to plod through a rather uninspiring plot.

The Alpha Legion turns against the Emperor because unnamed Xenos affects their minds with warp magic?

Really?

How do they know what they've seen is even true? Are Primarchs really that half-witted?

I've not seen a more idiotic dilemma and subsequent choice.

Supposedly, Horus would exterminate humanity if he slays the Emperor. Somehow this is a GOOD choice?

Why even fight the Necrons or Tyranids then? They'd finish the job far better than this nebulous "Primordial Annihilator".

It's telling that despite having so much potential the Alpha Legion storyline is practically left to rot despite having been started.


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## constantin_valdor

I found it rather tedious and it took me an age to finish which is unusual for me, i normally find all of Dan Abnetts work really good so it was a let down when i read Legion. Havent gone back to it since.


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## Angel of Blood

I completely disagree. Legion is without a doubt the best book in the HH series imo and a general masterpeice from Abnett. It was the only way possible in which the Alpha Legion could be written about, it was intriguing, always kept you guessing, an excellent insight into the methods and tactics of the mysterious XX Legion. Alpharius and Omegon both seemed to be one of the most level headed primarchs and down to earth with their men. The characters were all excellent, Peto, Bronzi and Chayne in particular. 

As for their decision. I've always taken psychic visions like the ones they were shown to be utterly convincing, just something that cannot be denied once experienced, but thats just my view. As for them choosing the path that wipes out humanity. They are utterly loyal to the Emperors vision and objective of defeating chaos and being the complete pragmatists that they are, they knew that the Great Crusade would not be succesful and that the only way to destroy chaos is to let it destroy itself. But even then, read the later books of the series and the Alpha Legions loyalties and incentives are still not entirely clear, which is exactly the point of them.

But yeah, overall the best book in the series for me. Others will agree, others like yourselves don't like it, it's a very marmite book, everyone seems to either love it or hate it.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Moriar the Forsaken said:


> The Alpha Legion turns against the Emperor because unnamed Xenos affects their minds with warp magic?
> 
> Really?


Thats what they want you to think.


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## Moriar the Forsaken

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Thats what they want you to think.


I really hoped so, but the way it was written, the two Primarchs were really taken by the xenos visions.


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## brianizbrewtal

The whole thing kind of confused me, because I'm not too knowledgeable about the IG. That and the whole book was kind of confusing. Maybe once the heresy is finished I'll start the whole series over and it'll make sense. Five more years perhaps? hahaha


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## Esca

It has been awhile since I have read it, but didn't the xenos say something along the lines of "these visions can not be fake as you know". Implying that Alpha Legion members knew that what they were going to view was not fake, it would see what the possible future was and not an lie fabricated by the xenos instead.


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## Moriar the Forsaken

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Thats what they want you to think.


Now that I've thought about this, I think that would be a great plot twist.

What if the Primarchs, given a glimpse of a possible future, decided to leave NO SURVIVORS who would know of what occurred, investigated and found the circumstances to be true, and decided that the best way to defeat Horus would be to poison and thwart him from within?

You know, because defeating Chaos by exterminating humanity does not make any sense when supposedly done for the sake of the Emperor, who supposedly subjugated the Void Dragon, and was attempting to subvert the webway with the golden throne, and who tried to keep the human race secular and came up with things like soul-binding in order to MASTER the warp? (Defeating "Chaos" was never as important as mankind triumphing over it)

Lots of potential, I think. One that can only enrich the Horus Heresy narrative.



Esca said:


> It has been awhile since I have read it, but didn't the xenos say something along the lines of "these visions can not be fake as you know". Implying that Alpha Legion members knew that what they were going to view was not fake, it would see what the possible future was and not an lie fabricated by the xenos instead.


"These visions cannot be fake, as you know".

Well, what is it that the Primarchs know that the reader doesn't? If that is not explained or demonstrated then the whole story (and statement) becomes a pointless exercise.


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## Angel of Blood

Age of Darkness throws more confusion and intrigue to their decision aswell in two of the short stories, spoilers about the two shorts ahead.



In the one story a human Alpha Legion operative is revealed to be going from world to world 'out on the raggedy edge' as it were, inciting rebellion and weakening the worlds from Imperial rule by planting misinformation, cheifly that the Emperor is dead and Horus victorious. 

But then in the other short story it shows the Raven Guard rescuing Corax and the other survivors from Istvaan, the story also centers on a World Eater ship hunting down survivors which despite the Raven Guard fleets distractions is still in a position to attack them and potentially destroy them, thus killing Corax and effectively the entire Raven Guard Legion(well whats left of it) But as he moves to destroy them an Alpha Legionaire(suposedly an emmisary from Horus) orders him to stop and not to attack them, when asked who he is the Legionaire of course replies 'I am Alpharius', the World Eaters second in command then shoots him point blank and as he dies also proclaims 'I am Alpharius' Thus saving Corax and the Raven Guard and allowing them to escape.

All very interesting


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## TooNu

Wow, I never thought I'd read abotu somebody disliking this amazing book 

It's definetly top.3 material when regarding the HH. It also shows how the Alpha Legion use other methods as opposed to the "shoot them until they are dead" tactic. Damn, I'm quite put out that a human being actually disliked the book.

I suppose we can't all agree though, i'm going to read it straight after finishing Age of Darkness and see if I agree with ANY of your points. I'm sure I won't :threaten: :wink:


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## Words_of_Truth

Wasn't a bad book, but it's my least favourite "conversion" if you take it at face value.


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## Mob

Moriar the Forsaken said:


> I just don't find the ending convincing at all, despite having to plod through a rather uninspiring plot.
> 
> The Alpha Legion turns against the Emperor because unnamed Xenos affects their minds with warp magic?
> 
> Really?


Think about it. The AL spend the entire book doing things _their_ way. I believe we're supposed to infer that it is entirely likely they have turned because of a 'third option'.

The whole book is about them taking in information from everyone and evaluating it themselves before acting on it in a unlikely way. They surprise everyone. Even their own operatives and most certainly the Cabal; when it looks like things are going according to the Cabal's plan, the AL reveal that not only have they played Grammaticus, they can also wipe out the Cabal at one word from the Primarch. Teleport assault, mofos!

The Alpha Legion are specifically shown to only pay lip-service to the Lord Commander and appear to go along with his plans while actually being up to their own stuff, which it suits them to fold into Namitjira's schemes. Perhaps they are treating the Cabal in the same way.

We are also told that they are not Imperial Truth drones; it's been a while since I've read it, but in the briefing bit aboard their ship in the last third, isn't there a chunk of background given about their character that they disagree with general Imperial philosophy/thought/strategy? When they're standing about debating this stuff openly and allowing the human operatives to chip in with their opinons? I may be misremembering that.

I think I've mentioned this before, but has anyone else here read _Use of Weapons_ by Iain M Banks? I'm dying to talk to someone about _Legion_ who has.


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## docgeo

IMO Prospero Burns is his worst but still a fair book. I liked Legion because it is the wild card in the 40K universe. Alpha Legion is in a position to effect the entire storyline by simply coming back to the Imperium.

Doc


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## Mossy Toes

Honestly, I think _Prospero Burns_ is is nearly Dan's best, not his worst. Sure, it's not bolter porn, but it's the closest BL has got to actual literature (followed by others such as _LotN, Angels of Darkness, TFH_, etc). It suffers, somewhat, because it was mis-marketed and suffers from Abnett-you've-reached-the-end-of-the-book-and-have-to-stop-writing-now-I-don't-care-that-you-have-to-tie-up-the-conclusion-unsatisfactorily-again Syndrome...but it's still a great piece of work.

_Legion_ is another strong entry, to me. An even more pronounced case of the aformentioned syndrome, but I don't count the whole book as a failure because the end was a bit abrupt. And besides, as has been mentioned already, the Alpha Legion had spent the whole book doing things "their way"--their hardly liable to switch now and become Word Bearers preaching one creed and belief. Just weep for them, that the Heresy was not successful and 40k has descended to its current nightmare state...


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## Malus Darkblade

Abnett tends to always rush the endings of his novels but Legion was a very good book but as others have said, it should have focused more on the Legion rather than the human characters.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> ...but as others have said, it should have focused more on the Legion rather than the human characters.


I firmly believe that the novel wouldn't have been as effective in portraying the mysterious nature and subterfuge of the Last Legion if it had focussed more on the Alpha Legionnaries themselves at the expense of the human operatives and Imperial Army characters.

Abnett got the balance perfect in my opinion.


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## Words_of_Truth

I personally think Abnett writes good stories about normal "bods" but when it comes to Space Marines, it doesn't really have the flare.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Words_of_Truth said:


> I personally think Abnett writes good stories about normal "bods" but when it comes to Space Marines, it doesn't really have the flare.


You didn't like _Horus Rising_ then?


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## Words_of_Truth

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> You didn't like _Horus Rising_ then?


That's probably an exception to the cause as it was a lot more focused on the Marines. Maybe I should of put it a better way, it seems to me when he has the option to include "normal" people with Space Marines that he tends to favour the normal people over the marines.

Like in Prospero burns, there was so much detail about the guy, where as the detail about the wolves wasn't as good and the battle was non existent.

Hope you see what I mean.


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## Malus Darkblade

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I firmly believe that the novel wouldn't have been as effective in portraying the mysterious nature and subterfuge of the Last Legion if it had focussed more on the Alpha Legionnaries themselves at the expense of the human operatives and Imperial Army characters.
> 
> Abnett got the balance perfect in my opinion.


I disagree. I don't think that a novel that's about the Alpha Legion from their perspective rather than their portrayal by others will necessarily reveal too much of the mystery that makes up the core of their ideology.

If we go down this route, then we'll never get an in-depth look at what makes them tick or how they view the world around them.

In _Legion_, I have to say say a larger than necessary part of the book revolved around human soldiers and their struggles against a Chaos-allied population and the AL's influence felt like a bonus track accompanying them. 

It was a nice touch seeing the Alpha Legion using one squad as bait to draw out the enemy and it went hand in hand with their practice of using people to accomplish their own goals. 

Another example being their manipulation of the human representative of the Cabal to get the drop on them was excellent as well. 

But when you have a large portion of the novel dedicated to the human's exploits and his romantic love-interest, it's just infuriating because it's wasting valuable space which could have been used for some additional AL love.

It reminds me a lot of _Prospero Burn_s where again we see a huge portion of the book dedicated to someone who isn't on the front cover of the novel which is not what customers bought the book for.

Again I have to stress that I believe that one can write about the Alpha Legion and yet leave much of their mysteriousness and intrigue intact, and Abnett could have accomplished this had he not have gotten, dare I say, sidetracked.


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## donskar

Mossy Toes said:


> Honestly, I think _Prospero Burns_ is is nearly Dan's best, not his worst. Sure, it's not bolter porn, but it's the closest BL has got to actual literature (followed by others such as _LotN, Angels of Darkness, TFH_, etc). It suffers, somewhat, because it was mis-marketed and suffers from Abnett-you've-reached-the-end-of-the-book-and-have-to-stop-writing-now-I-don't-care-that-you-have-to-tie-up-the-conclusion-unsatisfactorily-again Syndrome...but it's still a great piece of work.
> 
> _Legion_ is another strong entry, to me. An even more pronounced case of the aformentioned syndrome, but I don't count the whole book as a failure because the end was a bit abrupt. And besides, as has been mentioned already, the Alpha Legion had spent the whole book doing things "their way"--their hardly liable to switch now and become Word Bearers preaching one creed and belief. Just weep for them, that the Heresy was not successful and 40k has descended to its current nightmare state...


Bull's eye Mossy Toes! Propero Burns is a very good book. Glad to see I'm not the only one who distinguishes between "literature" and "bolter porn"!

I do also agree with other posters here who see Abnett in his writing more interested in "humans" than Astartes. I'd say there's more to explore in a human character, especially in the HH world. MANY of his best BL works focus on humans rather than Astartes: Gaunt's Ghosts, Eisenhorn, Ravenor. And outside of BL: Embedded.


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## Roninman

I think Dan's Heresy books all have been really good. Some Gaunt books and Brothers of the Snake are just really bad.

Think his best work outside HH has been Eisenhorn and Titanicus.


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## TooNu

I would like to comment here again 

I still can not beleive this sort of thread exists but I've read the comments again and I can understand why you might not be a fan of the book. 

My next thought after re-reading the comments was that perhaps Dan Abnett writes the human characters into his story and focuses much of the attention onto them is because Dan Abnett and his readers are human and can find common ground or at least recognise flaws and strengths as opposed to Astartes with whom none of us can can find common ground.

As it happens, the agent Gramatticus is the only character we could have any connection with (despite how awesome super agent he is :grin: )which is why he is so central. Along with the Gaurdsmen who play important roles in the plot.

And as it's the first proper book that shows how the Legion function (again later in Age of Darkness) we get an opportunity to understand how the spying, supterfuge, long game of manipulation works for them.

It's a great book! :clapping:I just find it such a shame that some people don't see it that way.


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## LazyG

Mob said:


> I think I've mentioned this before, but has anyone else here read _Use of Weapons_ by Iain M Banks? I'm dying to talk to someone about _Legion_ who has.


I have  - Think I have read all M Banks until the last one, and it is on my 'to read' list. What's the parallel you see?


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## docgeo

TooNu said:


> I would like to comment here again
> 
> I still can not beleive this sort of thread exists but I've read the comments again and I can understand why you might not be a fan of the book.
> 
> My next thought after re-reading the comments was that perhaps Dan Abnett writes the human characters into his story and focuses much of the attention onto them is because Dan Abnett and his readers are human and can find common ground or at least recognise flaws and strengths as opposed to Astartes with whom none of us can can find common ground.
> 
> As it happens, the agent Gramatticus is the only character we could have any connection with (despite how awesome super agent he is :grin: )which is why he is so central. Along with the Gaurdsmen who play important roles in the plot.
> 
> And as it's the first proper book that shows how the Legion function (again later in Age of Darkness) we get an opportunity to understand how the spying, supterfuge, long game of manipulation works for them.
> 
> It's a great book! :clapping:I just find it such a shame that some people don't see it that way.


Hey TooNu,
I agree it is ashame but remember that it is only a persons opinion. I useally love Dan's books but prospero burns just didn't resonate with me. We will always have people who tastes differ and that is a great thing as long as we all respect each others opinions.

Doc:drinks:


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## forkmaster

_Legion_ and _Prospero Burns_ I would sya really give credits to each Legion they tell the story about. I cant disagree that its cool to see Alpha Legion going their own way and the Wolves look upon how you deal with knowledge, but I didnt like the books really that much besides that.

_Legion_ was highly confusing for me, even though Im not native to the English language, and PB had a misleading title, too many jumps back and forth and I felt nothing about the Astartes characters. But as said, the Legions are portrayed really good.


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## Moriar the Forsaken

I liked Prospero Burns. At least I managed to see what makes them tick, something I didn't get from the space wolves books which just presented them as feral space viking werewolves.

Didn't really care much about reading about the shenanigans of giggling girls cavorting in some gene infantry regiment. I wanted to read about Alpha Legion, not the people attached to them. Again, I can't suspend my disbelief to accept that the Primarchs were so foolish as to accept xenos magic at face value in order to make an idiotic, ridiculous choice, especially when the Emperor was less about destroying Chaos than taming it in the first place. I really feel Dan forced this one over his reader's heads. Who would accept this apart from his die-hard fans?

Read Iron Snakes. Thought it was OK until the part the chapter fought Orks that outnumbered them many times in open battle, using archaic battle formations. I remember that method not, from the Codex Astartes...


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## Moriar the Forsaken

TooNu said:


> I would like to comment here again
> 
> I still can not beleive this sort of thread exists but I've read the comments again and I can understand why you might not be a fan of the book.
> 
> My next thought after re-reading the comments was that perhaps Dan Abnett writes the human characters into his story and focuses much of the attention onto them is because Dan Abnett and his readers are human and can find common ground or at least recognise flaws and strengths as opposed to Astartes with whom none of us can can find common ground.
> 
> As it happens, the agent Gramatticus is the only character we could have any connection with (despite how awesome super agent he is :grin: )which is why he is so central. Along with the Gaurdsmen who play important roles in the plot.
> 
> And as it's the first proper book that shows how the Legion function (again later in Age of Darkness) we get an opportunity to understand how the spying, supterfuge, long game of manipulation works for them.
> 
> It's a great book! :clapping:I just find it such a shame that some people don't see it that way.


Yes, I suspect that Dan Abnett has no ability to write Space Marines, xenos or villains in any depth. In most of his stories these folks are given superficial treatment.

Perhaps this may explain why the Emperor is portrayed as a white-hat in the Horus Heresy series. Perhaps because there is some feeling that fans will not accept a very morally ambiguous and machiavellian Emperor of Mankind.


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## Angel of Blood

Like myself and others have said countless times, how could the Alpha Legion have been written in any other way? They absoloutely had to be written about from an outside perspective, else it would have ruined the whole point of them. And again regarding their decision at the end, have you read what the others have put? It's impossible to know what choice the Alpha Legion actually made, as others have said, the novel showed that they always do everything their own way, the chances are they choose a third option as opposed to the two the Cabal offered them.


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## Angel of Blood

Moriar the Forsaken said:


> Yes, I suspect that Dan Abnett has no ability to write Space Marines, xenos or villains in any depth. In most of his stories these folks are given superficial treatment.


Have you read Horus Rising? Loken is a brilliantly written character, as are Torgaddon, Tarvitz etc.


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## Moriar the Forsaken

Angel of Blood said:


> Like myself and others have said countless times, how could the Alpha Legion have been written in any other way?


I guess we'll never know unless other authors take it up.



> They absoloutely had to be written about from an outside perspective, else it would have ruined the whole point of them.


I think this worked with Prospero Burns, but come on, be honest about Legion. The whole book was practically about that special army that selects men to have sex with its women or something like that. There was more written about characters flirting with one another than any real intrigue or even battle scenes, which amounted to basically shooting at faceless chaos barbarian hordes who overwhelm imperial guard with sheer numbers and sorcery. 





> And again regarding their decision at the end, have you read what the others have put? It's impossible to know what choice the Alpha Legion actually made, as others have said, the novel showed that they always do everything their own way, the chances are they choose a third option as opposed to the two the Cabal offered them.


I'm hopeful it is indeed a third option, that it makes sense and gels very well with the lore we already have. 

I'm also hopeful that we might get an author unafraid to write from an Alpha Legion perspective and delve into their psychology.

But I fear that hope is the first step to disappointment. :shok:

I suspect that the Alpha Legion will continue to do mysterious things whose motives are never explained, and that by supposedly helping Horus and the Abaddon exterminate humanity they would "save the galaxy from Chaos". (It could be argued the Necrons and Tyranids would do the same thing well.)


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## Moriar the Forsaken

Angel of Blood said:


> Have you read Horus Rising? Loken is a brilliantly written character, as are Torgaddon, Tarvitz etc.


I remember being very excited when I picked up Horus Rising when it came out, but I just can't remember anything about it. Nothing struck me as memorable. 

That's strange to me because if asked about any other book I'd read I'd at least remember something about it.


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## ckcrawford

Dan Abnett's writing if fucken awesome. _Horus Rising_ and _Prospero Burns_ maybe in my top ten best Heresy Novels for sure.

The thing about the Alpha Legion, is that they are so mysterious a legion to really pay attention to throughout the novel. I just lost interest... until the end. Otherwise, a good piece of literature. _Prospero Burns_ is a piece I stand up for like many who like _Legion_.


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## Moriar the Forsaken

Prospero Burns was definitely good.


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## Mossy Toes

ckcrawford said:


> Dan Abnett's writing if fucken awesome. _Horus Rising_ and _Prospero Burns_ maybe in my top ten best Heresy Novels for sure.


That eliminates what, the 5 worst Heresy books?


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## mal310

Dan Abnett really dropped the ball with "Legion"


Really, did he? 

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=78522
http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-rev...iewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

I think not. (the poll above as well as Amazon reviews, general reviews of the novel, etc). 

I know its a bit of a love it or hate it book but far far more love it than hate it.


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## Words_of_Truth

I don't think any heresy novels where written badly, it's just a matter of perspective.


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## Zooey72

Moriar the Forsaken said:


> I just don't find the ending convincing at all, despite having to plod through a rather uninspiring plot.
> 
> The Alpha Legion turns against the Emperor because unnamed Xenos affects their minds with warp magic?
> 
> Really?
> 
> How do they know what they've seen is even true? Are Primarchs really that half-witted?
> 
> I've not seen a more idiotic dilemma and subsequent choice.
> 
> Supposedly, Horus would exterminate humanity if he slays the Emperor. Somehow this is a GOOD choice?
> 
> Why even fight the Necrons or Tyranids then? They'd finish the job far better than this nebulous "Primordial Annihilator".
> 
> It's telling that despite having so much potential the Alpha Legion storyline is practically left to rot despite having been started.


It is hard to do justice how stupid this book is. I would have to become a much better writer myself to even attempt such a thing. The Angels books were not great, but I read them and enjoyed them to some degree. The plot in Legion has absolutely nothing going for it.

Some of the Legions like the 1000 sons and the emperor's children had tragic falls. Alpha legion rode the short bus rebellion. In the end there is no defending them nor the completely idiotic ending of the book. They are the only legion that was not lured to chaos, nor was it fooled into joining. They joined Horus becauese they are a bunch of morons.

There is no "their side" of the story. The aliens lied to them, had alpha legion not listened to the xenos than the other legions would have gotten to terra sooner, (along with alpha legion) and horus would have never had a chance. The emp. would not end up on the golden throne - and the great crusade would have continued with the emperor leading it. That is unchallangeable. While all of the other traitors were "fooled" to some degree the Alpha Legion book doesn't even have a chaos char in it.

Based off the word of a bunch of xenos that they should have butchered at first contact they betray the Imperium and the emperor so that the human race would die off sooner rather than having at least another 10,000 years of existance so that in the end... if they play thier cards right... the human race will be destroyed and xenos will inherit the Galaxy.

I wouldn't put alpharius in charge charge of punching himself in the face. Someone as stupid as he is would find a way to screw it up.

Edited to add one more thing. While the other Primarchs made some bad decisions some were unstable (lorgar) some got screwed over by the Emperor (angron/mort) and some were possesed (Fulgrem). Alpharius made his idiotic decision of his own free will with no outside influence other than a bunch of xenos.

I think Dan had to be on some kind of drug induced bender to come up with something as dumb as this. His other books kick ass, and I will read the next one he writes - but I am still stunned that the mind that produced "1000 sons" also created this brain garbage.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Were still not clear however exactly _why_ the Alpha Legion joined Horus. You can take _Legion_ at face-value and conclude that it was exactly because the Cabal asked them to (and the fact that the Cabal saved Alpharius' life and the nature of the Acuity could support this). 

Or perhaps having been forewarned of the Heresy by the Cabal - and still having two years before it erupted - they decided to join Horus in an attempt to sabotage his rebellion from within. 

Or that they joined for their own reasons, the meeting with the Cabal merely proving to be the catalyst which ignited their own agenda. Throughout all the previous lore and _Legion_ itself we know that the Alpha Legion had always done their own thing, their own way. In fact it is even revealed that the one thing Alpharius truly feared was not being in total command of a situation. Why should that suddenly change?

Or you could even go down another route and realise that throughout the novel (primarily in Chapter 7 IIRC) Alpharius revealed that despite bearing huge amounts of respect and admiration for the Emperor, he believed his father's dream to ultimately be arrogant, fantastical and ultimately unachievable. Alpharius was above all pragmatic, perhaps he saw a rebellion against the Emperor's vision as a positive thing for the good of humanity? 

Thats just a few possibilities. But as it stands, we don't truly know exactly _why_ they joined Horus. Everything we know about the Alpha Legion tells me not to take the ending of _Legion_ at face-value.


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## Commissar Ploss

tbh, the revelations and secrets revealed in this book were enough for me to consider it one of my favorites in the HH series. Just the sheer volume of development from what we previously knew about them was grand.  Not to mention the gem that Alan Merrit told Dan to put in there on top of the list of other goodies that Dan got the OK on.

CP


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## Serpion5

I agree with Ploss and Child, Legion was easily my second fav of the series. It was well written as you`d expect from Abnett and achieved a much greater balance of perspective to reveal an interesting side to the legion without destroying the secrecy. 

And like Ploss said, the revelations alone were pretty big...


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## Vitarus

I just finished this today. I knew absolutely nothing about the Alpha Legion. Based on the blurb on the back cover, I hadn't intended to read it. But then I learned that the Lucifer Blacks, who I saw in Blood Games, and John Grammaticus, who I saw in Know No Fear, were in it, and figured I didn't have a choice. I thought it was a great book, and it solidified Dan, once again, as my favorite BL author. I'm into psykers more than anything else about 40K (I started a thread asking which books are best for psykers), and JG did not disappoint! Neither did Shere, although he didn't get nearly as much screen time. 

The Cabal is, of course, a very cool organization. Gotta love the ancient, secret organizations that have been pulling very powerful strings. heh.

I did not get the impression that the Alpha Legion intends to join Horus. The Cabal wanted them to, so the end of humanity, and Chaos, would be quicker, and the horror that is the 40th Millenium would not come about. But they state quite clearly that they stand with the Emperor. So I expect them to fight against Horus. But from what you're all saying in these comments, I guess that's not what happens. I don't know enough about the details of the war to know what they do. Oh well. 

The human characters are all decent characters, imo. Maybe not enough difference between some of them, but there's only so many pages in the book.


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## MontytheMighty

_Legion_ seems to be one of those "hate it or love it" books
The same could probably be said for _Prospero Burns_

Oddly enough, I find both of them to be decently written but simply not entertaining to read


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## mal310

MontytheMighty said:


> _Legion_ seems to be one of those "hate it or love it" books
> The same could probably be said for _Prospero Burns_


Very true, I love Legion and hate Prospero Burns!


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## randian

Vitarus said:


> So I expect them to fight against Horus. But from what you're all saying in these comments, I guess that's not what happens.


The writers seem to be setting up one of the AL Primarchs to go Chaos and the other not (though still a Traitor). I wonder if one of the Alpha Legion Daemon Princes is really Omegon or Alpharius.

One thing I don't like about the Alpha Legion is that they aren't free thinkers like the fluff says, they're more slavishly loyal to their leadership than the Word Bearers are. So far as I can tell they never question turning on the Emperor, murdering their brethren as Isstvan, or even sabotaging other Alpha Legion projects.


----------



## gothik

randian said:


> The writers seem to be setting up one of the AL Primarchs to go Chaos and the other not (though still a Traitor). I wonder if one of the Alpha Legion Daemon Princes is really Omegon or Alpharius.
> 
> One thing I don't like about the Alpha Legion is that they aren't free thinkers like the fluff says, they're more slavishly loyal to their leadership than the Word Bearers are. So far as I can tell they never question turning on the Emperor, murdering their brethren as Isstvan, or even sabotaging other Alpha Legion projects.


i am begining to think the same thing, an how i read the serphant beneath i think it might be Omeagon but with the Alpha Leigon who knows, Leigon is one of my favourite books in the series because it still has people asking questions about the whys and wherefores, which i suspect is BLs main aim


----------



## BlackGuard

Of coarse if the Alpha Legion does break up into two different halves -- well then they really would be freethinkers in a since. 

It would actually balance things out. Half of the Dark Angels fell, and half of the Alpha Legion remained loyal(ish).


----------



## DerCommissarsInTown

My only problem with _Legion_ was that I had knowledge of where the universe ends up after it concludes and it left me with more questions than answers: Is the Alpha Legion fighting for chaos as a (very elaborate) contingency plan due to Horus' defeat or did they truly fall somewhere along the way?

Basically I want a book that tells how they fell set during the Heresy or a book in which they show their true colors set post-Heresy. But, then again, knowing might ruin the fun of Alpha Legion.


----------



## Tim/Steve

I loved Legion... one of the best so far (up to Fallen Angles). I thought the ending a little convoluted, but it made for a great story, even if I think it a little too fanciful to imagine it as part of a 'real' universe... everything up to that was utterly brilliant.

Now if I was going to moan about any of the books it would be Descent of Angles and Fulgrim...


----------



## Stephen_Newman

The only thing that annoyed me about Legion was how everyone moans that Omegon pretending to be a robot in Delieverance Lost was so shocking (which admittadly it was) yet they all ignore the scene where the Alpha Legion are all hiding under sand dunes for god knows how long. That scene was completely derpy to me.

Favourite scene would be either John Grammaticus taking out the Lucifer Black with his bare hands or when the meeting is over and we find out Alpharius was not even present at the meeting.


----------



## Zooey72

Moriar the Forsaken said:


> I just don't find the ending convincing at all, despite having to plod through a rather uninspiring plot.
> 
> The Alpha Legion turns against the Emperor because unnamed Xenos affects their minds with warp magic?
> 
> Really?
> 
> How do they know what they've seen is even true? Are Primarchs really that half-witted?
> 
> I've not seen a more idiotic dilemma and subsequent choice.
> 
> Supposedly, Horus would exterminate humanity if he slays the Emperor. Somehow this is a GOOD choice?
> 
> Why even fight the Necrons or Tyranids then? They'd finish the job far better than this nebulous "Primordial Annihilator".
> 
> It's telling that despite having so much potential the Alpha Legion storyline is practically left to rot despite having been started.



I have been preaching the stupidity of Alpha Legion for years. A lot of the people liked the book and I have no idea why.

I can do justice to the whole "Legion" book in 2 sentences. (or at least how it should have gone)

"Human, you and your species should die so that xenos can inherit the Galaxy because Chaos is evil".

BLAM BLAM BLAM *xenos dies*

While most traitor legions followed a horrific fall to Chaos, Alpha Legion took the short bus.

I could go on and on how idiotic this book is. Easiest part is already known. If Alpha idiot or his retarded brother were right than the galaxy would not have ended up the way it does in 40k. Think of the Heresy and the assault on Terra. If they had stayed loyal Alpha Legion would have ensured that the emp was not the corpse king that he is now. 2 twin primarchs and their legion I am sure would have tilted the scale for the Emp.

OP... I agree the book as dumb as hell. But "Deliverance Lost" is a good read. Def. not the best book in the series, but it does make up for some of the idiotic crap that happened in "Legion"

I have enjoyed almost all of the HH books. "Legion" felt like homework.

*Spoiler*

The fact Dan Abnett brought back such an uninteresting char as Gramaticus in "Know no Fear" makes me not want to read any more of the dribble that he writes. Loken was by far his best char. But other authors have done a better job than him with developing the char.


----------



## Xisor

I'd say some people suffer from an inability to read between lines, detect implications in text and even be vaguely aware of subtlety.

Re-read Chapter 7 of _Legion_. The Cabal are effectively an encouraging anecdote.


----------



## mal310

Zooey72 said:


> I can do justice to the whole "Legion" book in 2 sentences. (or at least how it should have gone)
> 
> "Human, you and your species should die so that xenos can inherit the Galaxy because Chaos is evil".
> 
> BLAM BLAM BLAM *xenos dies*


Thank god you didn't write the book!

Legion is a masterpiece.


----------



## Phoebus

Zooey72 said:


> I have been preaching the stupidity of Alpha Legion for years. A lot of the people liked the book and I have no idea why.
> 
> I can do justice to the whole "Legion" book in 2 sentences. (or at least how it should have gone)
> 
> ...
> 
> I could go on and on how idiotic this book is. Easiest part is already known. If Alpha idiot or his retarded brother were right than the galaxy would not have ended up the way it does in 40k. Think of the Heresy and the assault on Terra. If they had stayed loyal Alpha Legion would have ensured that the emp was not the corpse king that he is now. 2 twin primarchs and their legion I am sure would have tilted the scale for the Emp.


You spent that much time mocking "Legion", but didn't really even get a central premise of the book.

The idea was that, for the Galaxy to be "saved", the Emperor had to die. Horus would then effectively exterminate Humanity, effectively starving Chaos out. The Emperor didn't die, though. As a result, the "ten or twenty thousand years of slow death" (you know, the current 40k setting) that the aliens warned them of happened as advertised.

The choice the aliens offered, by the way, went hand in hand with the "false choice" Horus was offered in "False Gods": he saw a dystopian future wherein no one remembed him... and this was presented to him as evidence of the Emperor's desire to keep all power to himself. So it's not as if Abnett just came up with this off the top of his head while ignoring the "good parts" of the Horus Heresy series.

Beyond that, pretending like Alpharius and Omegon were just idiots who bought into a sales pitch strikes me as a case of the reader being willfully obtuse. The same vision the twins received killed a very powerful psyker and (IIRC) left a normal human babbling. The vision clearly was something of profound power; one might argue whether the Primarch(s) of the Alpha Legion were shown something true and honest or not, but they didn't simply take someone's word for it. Nor was their interaction with Xenos somehow without precedent: Fulgrim, for instance, felt he had the obligation to hear out Eldrad Ulthran - and it's strongly implied that his violent reaction the Eldar warning was due to the influence daemon within him.


----------



## bixeightysix

Zooey72 said:


> I have been preaching the stupidity of Alpha Legion for years. A lot of the people liked the book and I have no idea why.
> 
> I can do justice to the whole "Legion" book in 2 sentences. (or at least how it should have gone)
> 
> "Human, you and your species should die so that xenos can inherit the Galaxy because Chaos is evil".
> 
> BLAM BLAM BLAM *xenos dies*
> 
> While most traitor legions followed a horrific fall to Chaos, Alpha Legion took the short bus.
> 
> I could go on and on how idiotic this book is. Easiest part is already known. If Alpha idiot or his retarded brother were right than the galaxy would not have ended up the way it does in 40k. Think of the Heresy and the assault on Terra. If they had stayed loyal Alpha Legion would have ensured that the emp was not the corpse king that he is now. 2 twin primarchs and their legion I am sure would have tilted the scale for the Emp.
> 
> OP... I agree the book as dumb as hell. But "Deliverance Lost" is a good read. Def. not the best book in the series, but it does make up for some of the idiotic crap that happened in "Legion"
> 
> I have enjoyed almost all of the HH books. "Legion" felt like homework.
> 
> *Spoiler*
> 
> The fact Dan Abnett brought back such an uninteresting char as Gramaticus in "Know no Fear" makes me not want to read any more of the dribble that he writes. Loken was by far his best char. But other authors have done a better job than him with developing the char.


I know everyone has their own opinion...and my opinion about your opinion is that it...well...sucks! It's too bad the 40k universe can't be all happy and cheeful, like it seems you would want it. :laugh: Of course if Alpharius and Omegon were "right", as you say, the galaxy would be different. You could also say that if all the bolters shot out "hugs and kisses" instead of bolter shells, the galaxy would be different. Come on...the Heresy, in my opinion, IS 40k. It's the singlemost intregal part of the 40k universe, at least from what I know. Granted, I've only read the first 7 books or so, (just finished Legion today), and I have only a general knowledge of the 40k universe. But I don't feel by any means this book was idiotic. I felt the portrayal of the XX Legion was great (granted I had little, if any prior knowledge of them). I felt the characters were very good, and even being confused through maybe the first quarter of the book, I just chugged along, and everything worked out. Plainly, I thought it was one of the best books of the series so far (again only read 1-7).

*I do however, agree that Loken was one of Abnett's best characters. He rocked!


----------



## Zooey72

There is one part all of you are missing. I don't care if after humans are dead if the Galaxy turns into Lolipop land where all of the xenos frolic around wearing fig leaves and smoking peace pipes.

The key part to this is humans are extinct. Who cares what other great thing that comes out of our extinction. That is to say any good thing would come out of us all dying so that xenos take over (which I do not believe).

I am, and ALL of you should be rabid speciesist. Humans should not only come before xenos, xenos should not even be considered. If the Galaxy burns in 10k years than so be it. And lets not forget this is not a short amount of time. In 40k years 10k is about 20 percent of human existance. If you were 64 and knew that you would die at 80... but when you died all of your enemies would die with you, than what's the problem?

Also this whole notion of the Emp. needing to die to avoid the 40k universe is absurd. Alphatard supposedly saw the future and what it would entail if he didn't take the short bus to heresy. Guess what, they did turn and that is what ensured the 40k universe. Either the xenos lied to them *gasp* or they are just a couple of idiots.

As I said before. 9 vs 9 Legions got the draw that Alphatard did not want to see happen. 10 vs 8 would have tipped the scales in favor of the Emp and the 40k universe would not have happened.

The whole argument reminds me of tree huggers who want to save the planet by getting rid of the humans on it. Who cares if it saves the planet if there are no humans left!

:suicide:


----------



## Phoebus

Sorry man, but you're clearly missing the obvious.

1. The key part is that *there was no choice.* Well, there was a choice, but it came down to (A) Humanity goes down fast or (B) it goes down really slow and the rest of the Galaxy suffers as Chaos becomes more powerful thanks to feeding on our species.

You might not think that the Cabal were telling that truth, but that's neither here nor there, since...

2. ... again, it's not like Alpharius and Omegon were just having a conversation. They were exposed to a psychic vision that, true or false, was probably powerful enough to subvert their objective thinking even if its content was completely bogus (again, it killed a very powerful psyker and left another witness gibbering). The Alpha Legion Primarch(s) may very well have been fed a lie, but _it's not like they just took the Xenos' word for it._ And again, it's not as if Primarchs hadn't dealt with Xenos before.

3. Finally, the whole 10 Legions versus 8 doesn't make sense from the second that there already concepts in play that rendered that statistic moot. Two Loyal Legions were virtually destroyed (Raven Guard, Salamanders), one was decimated (Space Wolves), another lost its Primarch and Veterans (Iron Hands), yet another was stuck at Thramas (Dark Angels), and still yet another is heavily implied as being stuck in Ultramar (Ultramarines). So, at best, you have the three loyal Legions we knew of (Fists, Scars, Blood Angels) plus the Alpha Legion (that's assuming Chaos and/or Horus didn't take any steps to trap them or counter them once they didn't join voluntarily) fighting five different Traitor Legions (I'm not counting the Night Lords - who were fighting the Dark Angels; the Thousand Sons - who were decimated; or the Word Bearers and World Eaters - who were fighting the Ultramarines, even though they're stated as being in Terra in force).

Bottom line, you're so busy trying to tear this book apart that (A) you're forgetting it's fiction and (B) you're not even constructing a very valid argument. At least tear the book apart on the basis of the setting and what we know about the series thus far. :wink:


----------



## mal310

Zooey72 said:


> There is one part all of you are missing. I don't care if after humans are dead if the Galaxy turns into Lolipop land where all of the xenos frolic around wearing fig leaves and smoking peace pipes.
> 
> The key part to this is humans are extinct. Who cares what other great thing that comes out of our extinction. That is to say any good thing would come out of us all dying so that xenos take over (which I do not believe).
> 
> I am, and ALL of you should be rabid speciesist. Humans should not only come before xenos, xenos should not even be considered. If the Galaxy burns in 10k years than so be it. And lets not forget this is not a short amount of time. In 40k years 10k is about 20 percent of human existance. If you were 64 and knew that you would die at 80... but when you died all of your enemies would die with you, than what's the problem?
> 
> Also this whole notion of the Emp. needing to die to avoid the 40k universe is absurd. Alphatard supposedly saw the future and what it would entail if he didn't take the short bus to heresy. Guess what, they did turn and that is what ensured the 40k universe. Either the xenos lied to them *gasp* or they are just a couple of idiots.
> 
> As I said before. 9 vs 9 Legions got the draw that Alphatard did not want to see happen. 10 vs 8 would have tipped the scales in favor of the Emp and the 40k universe would not have happened.
> 
> The whole argument reminds me of tree huggers who want to save the planet by getting rid of the humans on it. Who cares if it saves the planet if there are no humans left!
> 
> :suicide:


There is also one other way to look at it. The Alpha Legion may have decided on a third option, one where both chaos is destroyed and humanity (or at least some of it) survives. Some times your need to read between the lines.


----------



## gothik

to be honest Legion set up more questions then answers but, as no one knows where the Twins called their home world, no one knows how they draw in their recruits or any of the basics we know about the others, ie Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus come from Cthonia etc etced will we find out their backstory? but despite not knowing how the twins started out after their cryotube crashed it truely leaves them as the mysterious Legion. 
I did wonder if they were just made up to make up the numbers, however after reading Legion i discovered that i totally enjoyed the idea of a Legion who never did what anyone else did, that played by their own rules and that their skills of subterfuge are second to none. 
And whilst they are doing their games of twists and turns and truths and non-truths, i have to wonder, does the Emperor realise he has twin sons or was it Horus they dealt with all the way? Did they even meet their father? and if the Legion split in half what did the other half call themselves if the Alpha Legion were condemned as traitors? 
on the whole the only books i have had some trouble with were Battle for the Abyss and the two Dark Angels books, other then that Legion is one of my favourites.


----------



## Haskanael

its all part of the legion


----------



## Zooey72

Phoebus said:


> Sorry man, but you're clearly missing the obvious.
> 
> 1. The key part is that *there was no choice.* Well, there was a choice, but it came down to (A) Humanity goes down fast or (B) it goes down really slow and the rest of the Galaxy suffers as Chaos becomes more powerful thanks to feeding on our species.
> 
> You might not think that the Cabal were telling that truth, but that's neither here nor there, since...
> 
> 2. ... again, it's not like Alpharius and Omegon were just having a conversation. They were exposed to a psychic vision that, true or false, was probably powerful enough to subvert their objective thinking even if its content was completely bogus (again, it killed a very powerful psyker and left another witness gibbering). The Alpha Legion Primarch(s) may very well have been fed a lie, but _it's not like they just took the Xenos' word for it._ And again, it's not as if Primarchs hadn't dealt with Xenos before.
> 
> 3. Finally, the whole 10 Legions versus 8 doesn't make sense from the second that there already concepts in play that rendered that statistic moot. Two Loyal Legions were virtually destroyed (Raven Guard, Salamanders), one was decimated (Space Wolves), another lost its Primarch and Veterans (Iron Hands), yet another was stuck at Thramas (Dark Angels), and still yet another is heavily implied as being stuck in Ultramar (Ultramarines). So, at best, you have the three loyal Legions we knew of (Fists, Scars, Blood Angels) plus the Alpha Legion (that's assuming Chaos and/or Horus didn't take any steps to trap them or counter them once they didn't join voluntarily) fighting five different Traitor Legions (I'm not counting the Night Lords - who were fighting the Dark Angels; the Thousand Sons - who were decimated; or the Word Bearers and World Eaters - who were fighting the Ultramarines, even though they're stated as being in Terra in force).
> 
> Bottom line, you're so busy trying to tear this book apart that (A) you're forgetting it's fiction and (B) you're not even constructing a very valid argument. At least tear the book apart on the basis of the setting and what we know about the series thus far. :wink:


I reject the entire premise of that because it would have to mean that Alpha Legion are not Astartes. It is a day in day out grind of death before, during, after, and 10k after the Heresy where Space Marines die. They die in hopeless situations, that is what they are made for. They have one goal, to keep humanity from dying off.

If I had 2 choices of whether to fight and die defending the Human race, but defending it would mean the earth was destroyed. Buh bye earth. I don't give a damn about deer and bunnies having a good time after we are gone. Not even a consideration.... and I don't hate deer and bunnies. Astartes hate xenos.

The only possible justification for Alphatard to do what he did is if it is a double cross. Get in close to Horus and screw him over. Not nec. for the Emperor, but for some greater good that makes more sense than letting the human race die. Even the Traitor legions don't want the human race to die. Become corrupted yes, extinct no.

Astartes were created to defend humanity. Any "solution" to the chaos problem that involves the death of Humanity is insane. "hey, I know how to cure cancer - kill the person who has cancer!" :shok:


----------



## Phoebus

At least reject the premise on grounds that make sense within the setting.

"Horus Rising" and "Fulgrim" shows us that Primarchs didn't just kill off Xenos arbitrarily. Sure, there usually wasn't a happy ending, but the setting shows us that Alpharius and Omegon were not being bizarre in hearing out the Cabal.

With that out of the way, again, it's *clear* that the vision the twins received from the Acuity was *not normal.* Hence, your whole supposition about "choices" is neither here nor there. They didn't just "make a choice". It remains to be seen whether they were shown the truth or not (personally, I don't think they were shown something false, since so much of the warning they get correlates with Horus' own "vision"), but that's neither here nor there.

Your whole argument boils down to "I don't like that Alpharius did what he did", but you're not even accounting for the reasons that he did so. Being upset that Alpharius turned for the reasons he did is literally on the same level as being upset at Horus for turning after his own vision, or being upset at Fulgrim because he attacked Eldrad on account of the daemon in his brain. Neither of them acted very Space Marine-ish, did they?


----------



## randian

Phoebus said:


> It remains to be seen whether they were shown the truth or not (personally, I don't think they were shown something false, since so much of the warning they get correlates with Horus' own "vision"), but that's neither here nor there.


I did find it rather interesting that the Cabal, who supposedly are knowledgable about and fight Chaos, act as if they believe that their visions, which come from the warp, cannot be corrupted by beings within the warp (the Chaos gods).


----------



## Zooey72

Phoebus said:


> At least reject the premise on grounds that make sense within the setting.
> 
> "Horus Rising" and "Fulgrim" shows us that Primarchs didn't just kill off Xenos arbitrarily. Sure, there usually wasn't a happy ending, but the setting shows us that Alpharius and Omegon were not being bizarre in hearing out the Cabal.
> 
> With that out of the way, again, it's *clear* that the vision the twins received from the Acuity was *not normal.* Hence, your whole supposition about "choices" is neither here nor there. They didn't just "make a choice". It remains to be seen whether they were shown the truth or not (personally, I don't think they were shown something false, since so much of the warning they get correlates with Horus' own "vision"), but that's neither here nor there.
> 
> Your whole argument boils down to "I don't like that Alpharius did what he did", but you're not even accounting for the reasons that he did so. Being upset that Alpharius turned for the reasons he did is literally on the same level as being upset at Horus for turning after his own vision, or being upset at Fulgrim because he attacked Eldrad on account of the daemon in his brain. Neither of them acted very Space Marine-ish, did they?


"With that out of the way again"....


Hardly. The 2 books you pointed out show the fall of 2 Primarchs. Fulgrim was already deeply corrupted by the time he went to see the Eldar, and many of his Astartes reminded him that what he was doing was against what the Emperor decreed. It can be EASILY argued that him going to talk to the Eldar is further proof of him becoming corrupted.

Same is true with Horus. No... he did not talk to every alien race. "Horus Rising" shows he would attack aliens on Murder for no other reason than the fact that they were there. He decided to negotiate with the Interex because there were humans who were the dominant species (although the species were mixed). Even than there were voices saying that they should have been exterminated. Further, you can also see him dealing with aliens as another ***** in his armor that furthered his fall to chaos. Either way, in both cases they acted directly against the Emperor's policy towards xenos. Why does the Emperor have this policy? Who knows, but some times you should just shut up and do what dad says.

Now that you made me think of it, most of the Primarchs who did fall had some dealings xenos.

Magnus wanted to preserve ANY knowledge, human or otherwise.
Lorgar Dealt with the barely human and corrupted things in the Eye
Alpharius, Horus, Fulgrim, for reasons already stated

That leaves Mort. Nightmaster, Perto, and Angron who we don't have enough info on to know whether they did or not.

How many of the loyal Legions dealt with xenos? 1/2 of one. And 1/2 of the Dark Angels turned to Chaos.

The big difference between the corruption of the other 8 legions is that Alphatard is the only one who did not have some perverted reason to go to chaos. According to "Legion" his was a rational choice made from a sane man.

Being sane does not = being smart. There was no slow corruption period. No sinister charachter flaw (perfection) of disagreement with the Emps. policy (what will happen to us after the Great Crusade?).

It was Alphatard being rationaly talked into doing something idiotic.


Edit to add, Fulgrim is the worst example you could have used. Part of the Emps Childrens fall was because they were implanting xenos organs inside themselves before they actual fully fell!


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

randian said:


> I did find it rather interesting that the Cabal, who supposedly are knowledgable about and fight Chaos, act as if they believe that their visions, which come from the warp, cannot be corrupted by beings within the warp (the Chaos gods).


Whilst I agree with you, there did seem to be something different about their methods of foresight to the more 'traditional' methods of the Eldar or other psykers. But as it stands, the Cabal's prediction may well ring true.



Zooey72 said:


> Same is true with Horus. No... he did not talk to every alien race. "Horus Rising" shows he would attack aliens on Murder for no other reason than the fact that they were there.


That is a very poor example if I may say so. The Megarachnids on Murder had already engaged a contingent of Blood Angels, and the Luna Wolves were responding to a distress call. That is a very different situation to a Legion making first contact with a non-hostile civilisation/species.



Zooey72 said:


> According to "Legion" his was a rational choice made from a sane man.
> 
> Being sane does not = being smart. There was no slow corruption period. No sinister charachter flaw (perfection) of disagreement with the Emps. policy (what will happen to us after the Great Crusade?).
> 
> It was Alphatard being rationaly talked into doing something idiotic.


There was actually extensive disagreement with the Emperor's policies on the Alpha Legion's part. Whilst they claimed complete loyalty to the Emperor, they also heavily criticised the entire premise of the Great Crusade. 

Meeting with the Cabal was based on Alpharius being pragmatic and his biggest fear being unable to be in complete control of a situation. The viewing of Acuity was obviously potent enough to kill a powerful psyker, reduce a normal human to near-insanity, and convince a Primarch of its message. In essence, I wholeheartedly agree with _Phoebus_, there is no basis to suggest Alpharius is an idiot.


----------



## Phoebus

Zooey72 said:


> Hardly. The 2 books you pointed out show the fall of 2 Primarchs. Fulgrim was already deeply corrupted by the time he went to see the Eldar, and many of his Astartes reminded him that what he was doing was against what the Emperor decreed. It can be EASILY argued that him going to talk to the Eldar is further proof of him becoming corrupted.


Hardly - please, read the relevant chapters again. Your premise, that Fulgrim talking to xenos is due to daemonic influence makes no sense. That's not my opinion. Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children leave Ferrus Manus and the Iron Hands and begin exploring a sector of space that holds a number of Maiden Worlds. They have no indication of their relation to the Eldar, nor is there a single instance of the "daemon voice" urging Fulgirm to do anything while they explore them and leave them behind. It is Eldrad Ulthran who initiates communication - one vessel against an entire fleet, and without any hostile action - and they only meet after a great deal of caution is taken.

Now, there's no doubt that the daemon had built up Fulgrim's ego and arrogance up to this point, but his reasoning for meeting the Eldar and his stance against Eldrad until the revelation of Horus' imminent betrayal has nothing to do with possession.

Finally, further dismissing the assertion that daemon within had anything to do with setting up this meeting is the fact that the first instance of him asserting his will is when he urges Fulgrim to attack Eldrad once the Farseer announces Horus' treachery.



> Same is true with Horus. No... he did not talk to every alien race.


I never said he did. I pointed out that there was definitely a precedent regarding Primarchs dealing with xenos. Additionally, I would point out that the mentality of a Primarch varies greatly from brother to brother, and that the mentality of a Primarch is nothing like that of an Astartes. Citing how Astartes - who are in effect brainwashed to be loyal to a tee - would feel about dealing with aliens makes no sense when we're talking about how Primarchs would act.



> How many of the loyal Legions dealt with xenos? 1/2 of one. And 1/2 of the Dark Angels turned to Chaos.


Sorry, but you're wrong here as well.

_The Lion_ dealt with the Watchers in the Dark, and one other individual in his Legion is known to have encountered/communicated with them. _Not_ half the Legion. Of those two, the Primarch famously voiced his allegiance to the Emperor, and Zahariel has in no way shown himself to be Luther's ally following the latter's declaration of rebellion.



> The big difference between the corruption of the other 8 legions is that Alphatard is the only one who did not have some perverted reason to go to chaos. According to "Legion" his was a rational choice made from a sane man.
> 
> Being sane does not = being smart. There was no slow corruption period. No sinister charachter flaw (perfection) of disagreement with the Emps. policy (what will happen to us after the Great Crusade?).
> 
> It was Alphatard being rationaly talked into doing something idiotic.


In order to arrive at this conclusion, though, you have to ignore the fact that the Acuity was not a normal conversation or a mundane message. You keep saying he was "talked into" his choice, etc., but there's nothing "normal" about a vision that reduces a sane person to gibbering and slays a psyker outright. Just as there wasn't anything "normal" about how Horus went about making his decision.



> Edit to add, Fulgrim is the worst example you could have used. Part of the Emps Childrens fall was because they were implanting xenos organs inside themselves before they actual fully fell!


Again, this has nothing to do with their decision to meet with Eldrad Ulthran. Additionally, Fabius had just begun implanting a few of the warriors.

Ultimately, this comes down to a simple fact. With respect, you just don't like the storyline and revelations of "Legion".

Now, don't get me wrong - you are absolutely entitled to your opinion. Different folks, different strokes and all that. I have no right to tell you that you HAVE to like something.

Having said that, though, it's one thing to offer that you don't like something (reader's prerogative) and quite another thing altogether to claim that a story is poor/nonsencical, etc., and offer points to support your argument. Where the latter is concerned, you have to actually provide some sort of data, evidence, whatever - and that's something you haven't done. Your argument ignores key features of the story and cites examples that are either cherry-picked (that is, ignoring other examples that stand in contrast to your argument) or incorrectly cited (such as incorrectly proposing that it was Fulgrim's quasi-possession that drove him to meet with Eldrad in the first place).


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## Zooey72

Ok, you seem to think that there is some sort of footnotes that the Emp. had when he said to kill xenos. As in, "well, only kill bad xenos", or "only kill chaos xenos". He said KILL ALL XENOS. There was no sub paragraph, no parenthesis, no "unless" in his decree. It was to kill them all and claim the Galaxy for humanity.

You can explain away the details of how YOU do not think that xenos influence had anything to do with the traitor legions falling but in the end the proof is on my side. The ones who fell had dealings with xenos, the ones that didn't did not.

In the newest book of short stories "Primarchs" the beloved Eldar try to save poor ole stupid Ferrus Manus from his fate. And his response was "Die xenos scum". And although tempted by his best friend it never even became an option for him to fall to chaos.

While you can argue about the Emperor's godhood, his authority in pre-heresy is uncontestable. If he had wanted exceptions to the "kill all xenos" rule he would have made them. He did not. Of the primarchs that fell many dealt (all that we know extensively so far) with xenos.

I do not think that is a coincidence.

What I think is going to be intreresting is papa smurf being resentful of not being able to use psychers now that he knows about Daemons. He has questioned the Emps. wisdom in "know no fear" and I am half convinced he may follow the same road down to damnation.

The Emperor made his rules for a reason. It was not as if he was a regular father who had 18 kids and 1/2 of them disagreed on something. Lets even say the disagreement was so intense it started a war. All 9 that disagreed with the Emperor turned into chaos tainted warp things.

Point being is the Emp. made the rules to stop chaos. Whatever their good intentions may/may not have been to deal with xenos it still inevitably led to their corruption.

There is a line from the movie "Prophecy" when one of the fallen angels is trying to convince an angel that god betrayed them by creating man. The angel says "you make good points, but some times you just have to do as you are told".


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## Corporal Punishment 69

I like the book, i think you be overreacting a bit, you like or no, is ok, but is just a story, not religion to be argue so much......


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## gothik

get the feeling that you are not a big fan of Alpharius, and thats fine we all have Primarchs/Legions that we either like or dislike, good or bad but, whilst others are reading what is replied to your posts, it occurs to me that you are not entirly taking in what was said. like Corp said...its a game, there are some brilliant books out there on the subject, its a hobby and until the Imperial truth raises its head, thats all it is.


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## Phoebus

Zooey72 said:


> Ok, you seem to think that there is some sort of footnotes that the Emp. had when he said to kill xenos. As in, "well, only kill bad xenos", or "only kill chaos xenos". He said KILL ALL XENOS. There was no sub paragraph, no parenthesis, no "unless" in his decree. It was to kill them all and claim the Galaxy for humanity.


I'm trying to point out that the mission was spelled out much more simply for the warriors fighting the Great Crusade, but that there were many more shades of grey for the Emperor, the Primarchs, and other high-ranking individuals. I keep telling you it's your right to not like the book, but to at least argue on the basis of what the books say. So, where the above paragraph is concerned, what does this quote mean to you?

(pg 20 from the eBook version)
_Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly endeavour._



> You can explain away the details of how YOU do not think that xenos influence had anything to do with the traitor legions falling but in the end the proof is on my side. The ones who fell had dealings with xenos, the ones that didn't did not.


You have incomplete proof, at best, and circumstantial at that. It's incomplete because we haven't read stories on all the Primarchs yet - nor are those stories the sum total of their record. It's circumstantial, because the contact with the xenos wasn't the reason for their fall... or even due to the factors that led to their fall.

Again, even a cursory reading of "Fulgrim" shows that the Primarch of the III Legion was in no way steered to the Eldar by the daemon within him. Nor did Fulgrim succumb to the possessed sword on account of his feelings for the Laer. That sword could have just as easily been in a human museum on a world brought under Compliance, and the result would have been the same.



> In the newest book of short stories "Primarchs" the beloved Eldar try to save poor ole stupid Ferrus Manus from his fate. And his response was "Die xenos scum". And although tempted by his best friend it never even became an option for him to fall to chaos.


So? I'm not arguing that all the Primarchs are the same - or that they had the same policies. Fulgrim is more of a thinker than Ferrus Manus, and so were Alpharius and Omegon. Same with different Astartes commanders - Abaddon felt peace could not be had with the Interex... but Loken (who was a loyalist!) felt differently.

Ergo, it makes sense to point out that, just as Fulgrim was willing to meet the Eldar during guarded, suspicious talks, so would Alpharius and Omegon be willing to hear out the Cabal under similarly guarded, suspicious circumstances. Both Primarchs showed up with armed retinues, ready for trouble.



> What I think is going to be intreresting is papa smurf being resentful of not being able to use psychers now that he knows about Daemons. He has questioned the Emps. wisdom in "know no fear" and I am half convinced he may follow the same road down to damnation.


Except we know that this is not the case.



> The Emperor made his rules for a reason.


But you're ignoring all the context that comes with the story.

His rules were contingent on being able to conquer the Galaxy in short order. They hinged on ignorance. The desired end was for the Emperor to subvert xenos technology (the Webway) to come up with a means by which Humanity could be unified with a minimum of exposure to the Warp: they wouldn't have to trouble through it, and by eliminating religion they would greatly deprive Chaos of its powers.

Having said that, though, the Emperor broke his own rules before he even issued them. He courted with powers of the Warp to create his Primarchs and used psykers galore to conquer Terra and the Galaxy in general. His right-hand man was an immensely powerful psyker.

Where xenos are concerned, Imperial policy is not automatically extermination. Where the Laer are concerned, hostilities only started when the III Legion headed for their homeworld. Again, the Council of Terra offered a less extreme measure than extermination, but Fulgrim rejected this. But again, the fact is that he didn't call for ending their species until AFTER hostilities started. And, once more, hostilities didn't come with first contact. Thus, my argument:
1. Fulgrim shows that, while he is absolutely willing to end a whole species, policy is NOT to arbitrarily exterminate.
2. His meeting with the Eldar, like Alpharius' with the Cabal, was *not forbidden*.


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## Zooey72

No, we don't know all the stories about the primarchs, but of the ones we DO know the ones who dealt with xenos fell. Whether you believe that they fell because of xenos contact or not does not change that fact. Another edict from the Emperor was no librarians. Corax, although desperately wanting to use one of his former Librarians to open the door to get the geneseed the emp said he could have - did not. Johnson on the other hand may be headed down the wrong path as well.

"We know that isn't the case". My theory is that the 3 Legions coming to 'save' Terra were not comepletly loyal. Guiliman is training to fight Salamanders as well as traitor legions and has questioned the emperor for his decision at Nikea. Johnson punched the head off one of his subordinates rather than having him contradict him on using psychers. Not much has been said on Leman Russ, but it would not be too hard to see him being bat shit crazy. The Emperor knew those 3 legions were coming to "save" him, than why teleport up to Horus's ship? Just wait it out and he would have won by default. That is if he didn't know for sure whose side those 3 legions would be on, or maybe they would fight a 3 way battle.

The road to hell is full of good intentions. Magnus is a great example of that. He made a pact with the devil always knowing his reasons were right and virtueous. Look where that got him. Just because you can't see a direct line from dealing with eldar or the cabal to corruption does not mean it does not exist. Again, the Emperor said nothing of any negotiating with xenos.

The whole point of what the authors are trying to do is show how just a little nudge here and push there eventualy gets you corrupted. It is indisputable that had all the Primarchs followed what the Emperor had said to the letter there would have been no Heresy. Most of the primarchs falls were sad as they started out as icons and went into depravity.

Alphatard made a conscience choice w/o corruption to listen to those xenos. No other traitor did something that stupid.

And as far as things like fulgrim not being any further corrupted by dealing with the Eldar. First he should not have dealt with them, nor hide their planets from the Emperor so that they do not become compliant. That is a sign of corruption. Second it may be small, in the larger part of his corruption, but it was still part of it.

It is like a Heroine addict picking up smoking. Ya, the smack is the big problem but that does not make smoking good for you.


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## Phoebus

Zooey72 said:


> No, we don't know all the stories about the primarchs, but of the ones we DO know the ones who dealt with xenos fell. Whether you believe that they fell because of xenos contact or not does not change that fact.


The problem is that your fact is neither here nor there when it comes to this discussion.

The fall of the Traitor Primarchs didn't have anything to do with xenos. Lorgar, the architect of the Heresy, was corrupted by Erebus and Kor Phaeron - themselves acolytes of Chaos. Prior to deciding - of his own volition - to head into the Eye of Terror, he had zero known dealings with xenos.

Lorgar in turn set up Horus to be poisoned, manipulated, and eventually corrupted by Chaos. Xenos had nothing to do with his fall.

Angron wasn't corrupted by xenos, either. He was brutally tampered with rage-inducing cybernetics by a human culture. Subsequently, he and his warriors were exposed to Chaos vis-a-vis Horus, Erebus, and Lorgar.

Curze certainly didn't fall due to xenos. He fell because of his own insanity.

Fulgrim didn't fall because of "contact with xenos", either. He was in the process of _exterminating_ the Laer when he found the possessed sword that in turn corrupted him. EVERY Primarch fought xenos like he did. It's the influence of Chaos - via the sword - that led him down his path. His contact with the Eldar, though? No. At no point does the novel even imply the influence of the daemon in his meeting. Again, the daemon simply tries to get him to attack Eldrad when he tries to warn him about the Heresy. Fulgrim was willing to hear out the Eldar - but was still suspicious of them - because he was a more open-minded Primarch. And, yet again, the same book shows us that the policy of the Imperium DID include negotiations and talks with xenos.

Magnus fell because of contact with Chaos from the very get-fo.

Mortarion is of yet an unknown factor. We don't know why he fell specifically, but xenos have not been mentioned.

Perturabo is also yet unknown, but, again, xenos are not mentioned. The most solid indication thus far was that he was both manipulated and corrupted by Horus - who supposedly gifted him with a tainted weapon while also setting up the rebellions on Olympia that led to the Iron Warriors becoming renegades.



> Another edict from the Emperor was no librarians.


So? That came right at the very end. And again, you're ignoring the context of the Council's verdict. The Emperor was pressured to ban the Librarians by Russ, Mortarion, and others. Had he known that the whole thing was a sham orchestrated by Chaos - to drive a wedge between him and Magnus, and to weaken the Imperium, he'd never have agreed with it.



> My theory is that the 3 Legions coming to 'save' Terra were not comepletly loyal.


I'm sorry, but your theory is uninformed. Guilliman was not "coming to the rescue". That was old lore. In "Age of Darkness", Guilliman reveals that he thinks he'll be called a traitor _precisely because he aims to abandon the Imperium in favor of his own Imperium Secundus._



> Johnson punched the head off one of his subordinates rather than having him contradict him on using psychers.


Because the Lion realized that the verdict of Nikaea was pointless when, absent Librarians, they were unable to defeat the forces of the Warp. Also, see above.



> Not much has been said on Leman Russ, but it would not be too hard to see him being bat shit crazy.


Except "Prospero Burns" already qualifies Russ as probably the *most* loyal of the Primarchs.



> The Emperor knew those 3 legions were coming to "save" him, than why teleport up to Horus's ship?


You're again misreading the fluff. *Horus* learned the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves were coming - not the Emperor. Realizing that he would lose unless he ended the siege/killed the Emperor quickly, he lowered his shields to lure his father into single combat.



> Alphatard made a conscience choice w/o corruption to listen to those xenos. No other traitor did something that stupid.


Nope, again you're just making unfounded statements for the sake of calling someone a "tard". I've already shown you that the policy of the Imperium included communicating with xenos. I've also shown you that your "contact with xenos = fall" theory is unfounded. And I've shown you that the Alpharius didn't just "talk" with the Cabal, but - if anything - was psychically influenced by them.

Again, if you don't like the novel that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. Your argument, though, is flawed. It has no real basis and betrays the fact that you're not that familiar with the material you're trying to cite. No offense!


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## gothik

Zooey72 said:


> Guiliman is training to fight Salamanders as well as traitor legions and has questioned the emperor for his decision at Nikea.
> 
> 
> Guiliman was training to fight Salamanders purely because i dont think at the time he did not know who had turned and who had not turned. He had to take into account that Horus could change anyones mind. After all Horus engineered the destruction of Prospero by changing the Emperors actual orders in relation to what Russ had to do, as Magnus at the time was a threat to him.
> Guiliman did not want to face any prospects of facing off against a brother who whilst might truely be brother in arms, could have changed their minds and joined Horus and Lorgar.
> He wanted to test his sons against all eventualities, that is who he is, he looks at the possible outcomes as well as the real outcomes That is what makes him one of the best Primarchs, (Even i have to conceede that one and i am not a UM fan)


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## Zooey72

Phoebus said:


> The problem is that your fact is neither here nor there when it comes to this discussion.
> 
> The fall of the Traitor Primarchs didn't have anything to do with xenos. Lorgar, the architect of the Heresy, was corrupted by Erebus and Kor Phaeron - themselves acolytes of Chaos. Prior to deciding - of his own volition - to head into the Eye of Terror, he had zero known dealings with xenos.
> 
> Lorgar in turn set up Horus to be poisoned, manipulated, and eventually corrupted by Chaos. Xenos had nothing to do with his fall.
> 
> Angron wasn't corrupted by xenos, either. He was brutally tampered with rage-inducing cybernetics by a human culture. Subsequently, he and his warriors were exposed to Chaos vis-a-vis Horus, Erebus, and Lorgar.
> 
> Curze certainly didn't fall due to xenos. He fell because of his own insanity.
> 
> Fulgrim didn't fall because of "contact with xenos", either. He was in the process of _exterminating_ the Laer when he found the possessed sword that in turn corrupted him. EVERY Primarch fought xenos like he did. It's the influence of Chaos - via the sword - that led him down his path. His contact with the Eldar, though? No. At no point does the novel even imply the influence of the daemon in his meeting. Again, the daemon simply tries to get him to attack Eldrad when he tries to warn him about the Heresy. Fulgrim was willing to hear out the Eldar - but was still suspicious of them - because he was a more open-minded Primarch. And, yet again, the same book shows us that the policy of the Imperium DID include negotiations and talks with xenos.
> 
> Magnus fell because of contact with Chaos from the very get-fo.
> 
> Mortarion is of yet an unknown factor. We don't know why he fell specifically, but xenos have not been mentioned.
> 
> Perturabo is also yet unknown, but, again, xenos are not mentioned. The most solid indication thus far was that he was both manipulated and corrupted by Horus - who supposedly gifted him with a tainted weapon while also setting up the rebellions on Olympia that led to the Iron Warriors becoming renegades.
> 
> 
> So? That came right at the very end. And again, you're ignoring the context of the Council's verdict. The Emperor was pressured to ban the Librarians by Russ, Mortarion, and others. Had he known that the whole thing was a sham orchestrated by Chaos - to drive a wedge between him and Magnus, and to weaken the Imperium, he'd never have agreed with it.
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, but your theory is uninformed. Guilliman was not "coming to the rescue". That was old lore. In "Age of Darkness", Guilliman reveals that he thinks he'll be called a traitor _precisely because he aims to abandon the Imperium in favor of his own Imperium Secundus._
> 
> 
> Because the Lion realized that the verdict of Nikaea was pointless when, absent Librarians, they were unable to defeat the forces of the Warp. Also, see above.
> 
> 
> Except "Prospero Burns" already qualifies Russ as probably the *most* loyal of the Primarchs.
> 
> 
> You're again misreading the fluff. *Horus* learned the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves were coming - not the Emperor. Realizing that he would lose unless he ended the siege/killed the Emperor quickly, he lowered his shields to lure his father into single combat.
> 
> 
> Nope, again you're just making unfounded statements for the sake of calling someone a "tard". I've already shown you that the policy of the Imperium included communicating with xenos. I've also shown you that your "contact with xenos = fall" theory is unfounded. And I've shown you that the Alpharius didn't just "talk" with the Cabal, but - if anything - was psychically influenced by them.
> 
> Again, if you don't like the novel that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. Your argument, though, is flawed. It has no real basis and betrays the fact that you're not that familiar with the material you're trying to cite. No offense!


To my knowledge the last fluff put out on what the Emperor knew came from the fiction at the end of the board game, and that said that he did know the other 3 legions were coming despite Horus trying to hide it from him. He went anyway.

Your argument takes for granted your opinion is the correct one and I do not agree with that. The Emperor ordered the destruction of every other non human species because he is just that mean? Why would he come up with such an edict? It was very clear and very absolute - kill all xenos. There was no imperial buracracy set up to decide which were the good xenos and which were the bad. They all had to die.

For your argument to hold any water it depends on one of 2 things. The Emperor is stupid, or the Emperor is evil. Take your choice, there is no 3rd option.

We do not know the intentions of Papa Smurf and company are yet. You presume to know from that short story but not nearly enough info was given out to make your (or my) claim. What we DO know is that when papa smurf got to terra he did not attack the remaining loyalist... but he did kind of fill in for the Emperor - or take over because the remaining legions could not defend against it. We will know how he got his way and split up the legions into chapters once it is all over.

Your opinions on why the individual primarchs fell, and how xenos were not a factor is arguable. I do agree that being stabbed with the corrupted sword, making deals with a Chaos God to save your Legion, and being possessed by a Daemon sword all led up to corruption. I would even go so far as to say those things more than likely had a bigger impact than xenos contact. But it is my heroine vs smoking analogy. Just because smoking is the lesser of 2 evils - that doesn't make it good.

I also thought it was quite funny that you think that Nikea was a bad decision by the Emperor based off of the perspective of MAGNUS in a "1000 sons". Who would have guessed Magnus would have thought that :laugh: Primarchs are powerful. The Emperor has brought and entire 100k astartes Legion to its knees with a thought. He has captured a god and imprisoned it in Mars. I hardly think Mort or anyone else was going to make him do anything he didn't want to do.

In the end you brush off the idea of the Emperor edict on xenos as just being wrong and he hadn't really thought it out or something. The same with Nikea and psychers (which by the way Magnus had already damned himself when he saved his legion from mutation AND said before his final fall that the other legions were right about them all along).

So what is your explanation as to why the Emperor put out those 2 orders? By what fluff there is he had been around since about 10,000 BC and has been planning this all along. So I am going to take "stupid" off the table. That leaves you with evil, which really doesn't work for me either since if those 2 edicts had been carried out to the letter the Heresy would never have happened. He wanted to stop corruption/chaos. The ones who turned against him were not just 9 legions who decided to go their seperate ways. They are mutated chaos warp things.

"Child of the Emperor" has a more compelling argument than yours. He seems to champion chaos and thinks the emp was evil from a lot of his posts. A different argument that I don't agree with, but an interesting one.

Lastly. You say it makes no difference whether the traitors had contact with xenos or not. From the primarchs who fell that we know enough about.

Horus dealt with the interex. Other than a few seeds of corruption doubting what will happen after the crusade I don't know why he didn't just kill them. Yes they were human, but they had what amounted to xenos slaves. BTW, Erebus would not have gotten the anathama had Horus bombarded the planet from orbit and not dealt with xenos.

Fulgrim allowed Fabius to experiment on Astartes Gene seed with Laer DNA out of fear of what happened to his Legion in the beginning. The amount of sway the sword had over him when he made that decision is debateable.

Magnus pre-heresy said he didn't look at things in the warp as being evil or chaos. Just a nice warp entity that decided to save his Legion. If you take knowledge of Chaos out of his thinking than it leaves you with one option. He made the decision to make a deal with a xenos warp entity.

Lorgar could have killed all of the 'humanoid' things (I think the Custodes was right, they stopped being human a long time ago) from orbit before making pacts with a Daemon they conjured that corrupted his legion. Not after just to cover his tracks.

Alpharius.... blah.

The rest of the Primarchs we don't know enough about to say definetively why they fell. Angron, Mort, Curze didn't like the Emp from the start. Perto had middle child complex


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## Corporal Punishment 69

Guys, chill out, is a book, lore not law, nothing is "true", is a story about made up peoples in a made up universe with made up characters and made up reasoning, you getting waaaaay too excited about something that isn't real, go outside, smell the flowers, look at the pretty girls and relaaaaaaax......... :drinks:


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## Azkaellon

Legion is still a better book then Prospero burns......... Regardless of any flaws -_- (Mind you i liked Legion...I AM SPARTIC...er...ALPHARIUS!)


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## Zooey72

Corporal Punishment 69 said:


> Guys, chill out, is a book, lore not law, nothing is "true", is a story about made up peoples in a made up universe with made up characters and made up reasoning, you getting waaaaay too excited about something that isn't real, go outside, smell the flowers, look at the pretty girls and relaaaaaaax......... :drinks:


Not sure about Phoebus, but I am not getting all mad about disagreeing about a book. He has his take, I have mine. I doubt either one of us will change each others minds, but talking about the books doesn't mean I want to be a jerk about it.

The one annoying thing I will say is that he treats what he says as fact instead of opinion. The statement about "Kor and Erebus being the reason Lorgar fell" is not a fact. Taking xenos out of the equation entirely it can be easily argued that Lorgar never had a chance. His "4 other fathers" kept him the warp the longest just to corrupt him. He said he was 7 years old before he found out that some people had good dreams, the idea was ALIEN (could not resist that one :grin to him because all of his dreams were nightmares.

My larger point with this is that just because the authors point you in a certain direction, it can be misdirection. A good author should do that. I believe Magnus only turned to Chaos because it was part of the Emperor's over all plan. Some people think that Alpha Legion are in some kind of 10,000 year conspiracy and secretly support the Emperor.

An opinion is an opinion. We are talking geek Sci-Fi, not religion or politics. (But judging from your posts phoeb, I am guessing you are from a heathen religion that voted for the wrong guy :wild

In the end we are all a bunch of chicks who like our soap opera of HH. I grew up with it and I love (most) of the books. The authors are trying to get it right as far as HH goes because you don't get a second go at it. And so far they have done great.

And Phoeb, no hard feelings. You are def. entitled to your wrong opinion :yahoo:


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## gothik

to be honest an opinion is an opinion, no one is right no one is wrong. You dont like Leigon and your opinion is as valid as the next, some of your comments i have found to be valid and others to be boardering on arguementative. 
What ever the deal with the Alpha Legion is i am sure we will find out sooner or later, i for one am off the opinion that Omeagon turned and Alpharius stayed loyal until his death working behind the scenes, if indeed he did die at the hands of Guiliman, with the Alpha Legion who knows.
i think Dan set the scene for someone to take it up, and the idea that they have a structured intelligence network that in my opinion far outweighed even the Emps own network is testerment to the fact that the Alpha Legion, for whatever reason, have always been the more shadowy elements of the first foundings.


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## Zooey72

gothik said:


> to be honest an opinion is an opinion, no one is right no one is wrong. You dont like Leigon and your opinion is as valid as the next, some of your comments i have found to be valid and others to be boardering on arguementative.
> What ever the deal with the Alpha Legion is i am sure we will find out sooner or later, i for one am off the opinion that Omeagon turned and Alpharius stayed loyal until his death working behind the scenes, if indeed he did die at the hands of Guiliman, with the Alpha Legion who knows.
> i think Dan set the scene for someone to take it up, and the idea that they have a structured intelligence network that in my opinion far outweighed even the Emps own network is testerment to the fact that the Alpha Legion, for whatever reason, have always been the more shadowy elements of the first foundings.


Nothing wrong with arguing. A debate is a debate. It sucks for Phoebe that he is wrong, but I am sure he will get over it. :laugh:

I never read "Prospero Burns" because I could not stay awake past the first 50 pages. And I have not finished "The Primarchs"". I have read the first 2 stories and 1/2 way through the Lion'el Johnson story. The book has been decent. How Fulgrim is now seems like a blatant rip off of "Hellraiser" from the 80s. Sorry, come up with your own story. Making Fulgrim a cynabite is lame.


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## Phoebus

Zooey72 said:


> To my knowledge the last fluff put out on what the Emperor knew came from the fiction at the end of the board game, and that said that he did know the other 3 legions were coming despite Horus trying to hide it from him. He went anyway.


It's interesting that there's new fluff out there, but what does that have to do with your original premise?



> Your argument takes for granted your opinion is the correct one and I do not agree with that.


I'm not offering you an opinion, though. I'm pointing out that the books contradict you. Case in point, look at this next paragraph:



> The Emperor ordered the destruction of every other non human species because he is just that mean? Why would he come up with such an edict? It was very clear and very absolute - kill all xenos. There was no imperial buracracy set up to decide which were the good xenos and which were the bad. They all had to die.


No, of course he didn't do so "because he is just that mean". In fact, he doesn't appear to have made such a simple order. "Fulgrim", Chapter One, states that administrators from the Council of Terra proposed that Fulgrim make the Laer a protectorate of the Imperium because conquering them might be too difficult. So clearly that bureaucracy did exist.



> We do not know the intentions of Papa Smurf and company are yet. You presume to know from that short story but not nearly enough info was given out to make your (or my) claim.


I'm not making a claim or offering my opinion. I'm just telling you what Papa Smurf has been musing over. :wink:

From "Rules of Engagement":
_The Imperium was lost. Everything he knew told him so, and this betrayal was the one thing that would save the dream at its heart from extinction.
The body of the Imperium was dying, but the ideals of its foundation could live on.
His father would understand that, even if others would not.
Roboute Guilliman wrote two words at the top of the right-hand page: words of treachery, words of salvation. Words to herald a new beginning.
Imperium Secundus._

Why is Guilliman starting Imperium Secundus? Because the Imperium is dying. Why can't he help?

From "Know No Fear":
_"The Ruinstorm rises, a warp-storm beyond anything space-faring humanity has witnessed since the Age of Strife. It will split the void asunder. It will divide the galaxy in two. It will render vast tracts of the Imperium impassable for centuries.
It will isolate and trap forces loyal to the Emperor. It will divide them, and block their attempts to combine and support one another. It will shatter communication and chains of contact. It will even prevent them from warning each other of the heretical war breaking across their realm. The Ruinstorm will cripple the loyalists, and leave Terra raw and alone, infinitely vulnerable to the approaching shadow of Horus."_

None of this is my opinion. It's what Guilliman thinks out loud, courtesy of Mr. Graham McNeill. With that in mind...



> What we DO know is that when papa smurf got to terra he did not attack the remaining loyalist...


Of course he wouldn't. He's not a traitor in the classic sense. Once it was obvious that the Imperium survived somehow, he's wasn't about to kill his remaining brothers and their warriors.



> Your opinions on why the individual primarchs fell, and how xenos were not a factor is arguable.


Again, _it's not my opinion._ Everything I offered was spelled out for the reader in the books themselves - minus Angron, whose fate was spelled out in other material.



> But it is my heroine vs smoking analogy. Just because smoking is the lesser of 2 evils - that doesn't make it good.


This discussion wasn't about a lesser of two evils, though. It was about you thinking that "Legion" was a poor novel because "Alphatard" was stupid enough to talk to xenos. This in turn led to misconceptions you had about this series in general.



> I also thought it was quite funny that you think that Nikea was a bad decision by the Emperor based off of the perspective of MAGNUS in a "1000 sons".


Again, this has nothing to do with what I think. One of the antagonists from "Prospero Burns" specifically spells out for the reader that there have been forces at large seeking to turn the Thousand Sons against the Space Wolves and the Imperium in general. The Council of Nikaea was just a part of that. Don't take my word for it - read the book.



> In the end you brush off the idea of the Emperor edict on xenos as just being wrong and he hadn't really thought it out or something.


No, I don't. When did I ever say that? Here's my _opinion,_ for the record.

1. I don't think the Emperor is xenophobic. I think he's the ultimate pragmatist, and to him entire species potentially being annihilated is secondary to defeating Chaos.
2. Just as he eliminated religion to weaken Chaos, I think he made the Imperium (and the Legiones Astartes) xenophobic in order to prevent any technology, knowledge, etc., that might open them up to Chaos.
3. His Primarchs clearly believe in the superiority of Man (the Imperium's propaganda), but they also clearly are their own men. They think differently from one another.

That's my opinion. Where _fact_ comes into play is that the Emperor didn't order ALL xenos to be destroyed. He clearly left room open for xenos who weren't a threat to be taken as protectorates, client states, slave races, etc.



> Lastly. You say it makes no difference whether the traitors had contact with xenos or not. From the primarchs who fell that we know enough about.
> 
> Horus dealt with the interex. Other than a few seeds of corruption doubting what will happen after the crusade I don't know why he didn't just kill them.


For the same reason that the Council of Terra advised Fulgrim to make a protectorate out of the Laer.



> The amount of sway the sword had over him when he made that decision is debateable.


Debatable? That's quite a word. Debatable like "made you cut your brother's head off" debatable?



> Magnus pre-heresy said he didn't look at things in the warp as being evil or chaos. Just a nice warp entity that decided to save his Legion. If you take knowledge of Chaos out of his thinking than it leaves you with one option. He made the decision to make a deal with a xenos warp entity.


So what? If I thought an elephant hit when in fact it was a drunk driver, do we suddenly start blaming circus wildlife? Of course not. It was Chaos that was influencing and corrupting his Legion - whatever he thought. The only way this argument makes sense is if Magnus started out by dealing with normal xenos and used that experience as a basis for trusting Chaos.



> Lorgar could have killed all of the 'humanoid' things (I think the Custodes was right, they stopped being human a long time ago) from orbit before making pacts with a Daemon they conjured that corrupted his legion. Not after just to cover his tracks.


Except for the fact that he was being indoctrinated into Chaos worship since he was a child by Kor Phaeron, and that Chaos was preparing him to be their champion all along... See "The First Heretic" for that.



> The rest of the Primarchs we don't know enough about to say definetively why they fell.


Really? Because Curze's story has been pretty spelled out already, and it would be a pretty huge stretch to presume that Angron was corrupted by xenos... versus being a psychotic berserker who was showed the Khornate ideal and thought it was a grand idea.



> Not sure about Phoebus, but I am not getting all mad about disagreeing about a book.


I'm fine, thanks for asking. :wink:



> The one annoying thing I will say is that he treats what he says as fact instead of opinion.


I'm really not trying to. I'm offering you specific parts from specific novels that contradict the arguments you bring up.



> The statement about "Kor and Erebus being the reason Lorgar fell" is not a fact. Taking xenos out of the equation entirely it can be easily argued that Lorgar never had a chance. His "4 other fathers" kept him the warp the longest just to corrupt him. He said he was 7 years old before he found out that some people had good dreams, the idea was ALIEN (could not resist that one :grin to him because all of his dreams were nightmares.


I want you to take the first sentence from that paragraph and compare it to the rest. His "4 other fathers" were specifically working through Kor Phaeron.



> My larger point with this is that just because the authors point you in a certain direction, it can be misdirection.


Of course they can. But when the author says something like ...

_"Administrators from the Council of Terra had postulated that perhaps the Laer could be made a protectorate of the Imperium, since conquering such an advanced race could prove a long and costly endeavour."_

... that's not misdirection. That's spelling something really simple out for you.



> I believe Magnus only turned to Chaos because it was part of the Emperor's over all plan. Some people think that Alpha Legion are in some kind of 10,000 year conspiracy and secretly support the Emperor.


And you're entitled to your opinion. But when you say that the Primarchs who fell did so because of xenos contact, that's baseless. And when you're saying that "Alphatard" was talked into betraying the Emperor, you're basically ignoring the entirety of an entire chapter plus the setup that led to it.

Look, I'm not trying to tell you these books are perfect. For instance, I thought the Lion being unable to "read" people is ridiculous. I also think that there's way too much emphasis on the arts where Fulgrim is concerned, and that his philosophy re: perfection is vague, pretentious, and not at all plausible for someone who is a superhuman genius. I could totally see how people might see certain concepts as unrealistic, implausible, etc. That's cool, such is life. I'd be an utter jerk if I was trying to convince you that "Legion" is great reading if you simply didn't like it.



> And Phoeb, no hard feelings. You are def. entitled to your wrong opinion :yahoo:


Thanks!


----------



## Apostle

I mean in all honesty it WOULD have been nice to have a little more (not Alpha Legion per say) but more Omegon/Alpharius speaking with eachother). However Abnett did not drop the ball, and its easily easily in my top 5-6 Horus Heresy Novels


----------



## ckcrawford

I would have to disagree with you Phoebus. Wasn't getting rid of the Xenos threat one of the primary reasons the Emperor had? Horus did not understand that in the first novel. But it heavily hints that the old xenos civilizations were either in some way influenced/tainted by chaos. Take in mind of course, just the knowledge of its existence was considered a taint to the Emperor. And maybe it is justifiable to say so. After all, just the Interex association with the Daemon Weapon could be blamed for the Heresy.

I'll explain best I can with your examples.



> Phoebus: The problem is that your fact is neither here nor there when it comes to this discussion.
> 
> The fall of the Traitor Primarchs didn't have anything to do with xenos. Lorgar, the architect of the Heresy, was corrupted by Erebus and Kor Phaeron - themselves acolytes of Chaos. Prior to deciding - of his own volition - to head into the Eye of Terror, he had zero known dealings with xenos.
> 
> Lorgar in turn set up Horus to be poisoned, manipulated, and eventually corrupted by Chaos. Xenos had nothing to do with his fall.
> 
> How do you explain the old influence of Chaos on the planet?For all we know, this is open to interpretation. After all, the secrets in which to talk to chaos aren't something brought from Terra. It is very possibly they were left there by another civilization which Erebus and Kor were intruduced to, from findings, excavations, hoarding, etc... Xenos.
> 
> Angron wasn't corrupted by xenos, either. He was brutally tampered with rage-inducing cybernetics by a human culture. Subsequently, he and his warriors were exposed to Chaos vis-a-vis Horus, Erebus, and Lorgar.
> 
> I'm going to leave this one alone. I don't think we have enough information about his planet to know anything. Were they a human and Xenos Culture? I could make the case that his enhancements were something never seen before in the Imperium. Maybe it was xenos? Another thing, why do we never hear again about his planet? If it was a lost human planet after all, wouldn't they have rescued it?
> 
> Curze certainly didn't fall due to xenos. He fell because of his own insanity.
> 
> Fulgrim didn't fall because of "contact with xenos", either. He was in the process of exterminating the Laer when he found the possessed sword that in turn corrupted him. EVERY Primarch fought xenos like he did. It's the influence of Chaos - via the sword - that led him down his path. His contact with the Eldar, though? No. At no point does the novel even imply the influence of the daemon in his meeting. Again, the daemon simply tries to get him to attack Eldrad when he tries to warn him about the Heresy. Fulgrim was willing to hear out the Eldar - but was still suspicious of them - because he was a more open-minded Primarch. And, yet again, the same book shows us that the policy of the Imperium DID include negotiations and talks with xenos.
> 
> Does every contact with xenos result in corruption? No, but the reason why Fulgrim and his Legion found the Daemon Sword was because there was Xenos, they worshiped the ruinous powers, and Fulgrim excepted them in some form. He used their organs to make his Legion better. He excepted the Laer sword as an artistic weapon worthy of him, instead of blasphemy. You could also say the reason why Horus was turned was his leniency to the Xenos. Had he turned the city into ashes instead of eating dinner with them, Erebus would have never gotten the knife to stab Horus. Its the leaks in the Xenos.
> 
> Magnus fell because of contact with Chaos from the very get-fo.
> 
> Magnus isn't so easy to put, because his fall to chaos was more of a stumble. Each step being felt. And even when he leaves into the Planet of Sorcerers, he still has some of his humanity with him. One of the many reason Magnus fell from the Emperor's Gracious and thus to Chaos is due to his yearning of forbidden knowledge. I would that a lot of this knowledge was probably Xenos. The little things the Emperor didn't even teach him. It didn't literally turn him to Chaos, but it was definitely the drug that accounted for his actions.
> 
> Mortarion is of yet an unknown factor. We don't know why he fell specifically, but xenos have not been mentioned.
> 
> Perturabo is also yet unknown, but, again, xenos are not mentioned. The most solid indication thus far was that he was both manipulated and corrupted by Horus - who supposedly gifted him with a tainted weapon while also setting up the rebellions on Olympia that led to the Iron Warriors becoming renegades.
> 
> Yes these two are unknown. But the Xenos at least appear to be suspect for the archetects of the Heresy.


----------



## Phoebus

ckcrawford said:


> I would have to disagree with you Phoebus. Wasn't getting rid of the Xenos threat one of the primary reasons the Emperor had?


I didn't say it wasn't. What I argued was that, ...

(A) ... extermination was not the only policy. This is _clearly_ shown in "Fulgrim". Also, ...
(B) ... contact with xenos was not the reason for the falls of the Primarchs.

I hope you'll see that A and B, above, are drastically different from saying that ending the xenos threat wasn't one of the Emperor's priorities.



> How do you explain the old influence of Chaos on the planet?For all we know, this is open to interpretation. After all, the secrets in which to talk to chaos aren't something brought from Terra. It is very possibly they were left there by another civilization which Erebus and Kor were intruduced to, from findings, excavations, hoarding, etc... Xenos.


Very simply. With all due respect, you're relying on conjecture absent proof. You're assuming there has to be some sort of pre-human origin to Chaos worship.

By contrast, I'm relying on something stated quite succinctly by the characters of the Horus Heresy novels: that the old religions of Cholchis equated to Chaos worship, and that Chaos targeted Lorgar to be their champion/prophet/etc.

Maybe one day a sequel to "The First Heretic" will be written, wherein Erebus or Kor Phaeron will reveal that their ancient religions were based on alien beliefs. Until then, though, we have this from Kor Phaeron:

(pg 63 of the eBook version of "The First Heretic")
_"Much to be learned... from those cultures... hey are all echoes of ancestral human faith... ... I wished to save... the lore of the species..."_



> I'm going to leave this one alone. I don't think we have enough information about his planet to know anything. Were they a human and Xenos Culture? I could make the case that his enhancements were something never seen before in the Imperium. Maybe it was xenos? Another thing, why do we never hear again about his planet? If it was a lost human planet after all, wouldn't they have rescued it?


They have only mentioned the world as a human culture. Why do we never hear about it again? Because it's _Angron_ they made mad. :wink:



> Does every contact with xenos result in corruption? No, but the reason why Fulgrim and his Legion found the Daemon Sword was because there was Xenos, they worshiped the ruinous powers, and Fulgrim excepted them in some form.


Sure, but that renders "Primarchs fell due to xenos" moot as a criticism against Alpharius. None of the other Primarchs fell while exterminating xenos or bringing them under compliance per the directives of the Council of Terra. Fulgrim fell because he grabbed a daemon sword. To a lesser degree, his Legion fell because Fabius played up to their Primarch's colossal arrogance.



> You could also say the reason why Horus was turned was his leniency to the Xenos. Had he turned the city into ashes instead of eating dinner with them, Erebus would have never gotten the knife to stab Horus.


You would then be ignoring the ACTUAL reason for his fall, which is that Erebus was engaged in an ongoing conspiracy to corrupt him, on orders from his Primarch, who was in turn targeted by Chaos from day one and had been inundated in their religion from his youth.

The Anatheme was a tool, pure and simple. A plot device. Had they never met the Interex, Erebus would have found some other way.



> I would that a lot of this knowledge was probably Xenos. The little things the Emperor didn't even teach him. It didn't literally turn him to Chaos, but it was definitely the drug that accounted for his actions.


Again, you're relying on conjecture absent any evidence offered by the books. Magnus' fall is defined by his journeys into the Warp, and by his deal with Chaos (twice, at that) to save his Legion.



> But the Xenos at least appear to be suspect for the archetects of the Heresy.


Architects, as in designers of the Heresy? Absolutely not. Factors, as in happened to be involved in some secondary or even tertiary way? Sure. No one's denying that.

Cheers,
P.


----------



## ckcrawford

Phoebus said:


> Very simply. With all due respect, you're relying on conjecture absent proof. You're assuming there has to be some sort of pre-human origin to Chaos worship.
> 
> By contrast, I'm relying on something stated quite succinctly by the characters of the Horus Heresy novels: that the old religions of Cholchis equated to Chaos worship, and that Chaos targeted Lorgar to be their champion/prophet/etc.
> 
> This still does not explain how such an organized cult go into existence. Again, from to time in the Heresy Novels on can imply that there was more to the extermination of Xenos throughout the Galaxy from the Emperor's decree.
> 
> Maybe one day a sequel to "The First Heretic" will be written, wherein Erebus or Kor Phaeron will reveal that their ancient religions were based on alien beliefs. Until then, though, we have this from Kor Phaeron:
> 
> (pg 63 of the eBook version of "The First Heretic")
> _"Much to be learned... from those cultures... hey are all echoes of ancestral human faith... ... I wished to save... the lore of the species..."_
> 
> ADB writes this to remind the Heresy Community that the Heresy grew from within humanity and was planned out with strong roots. It still doesn't explain how a world fell into the influence of chaos without psykers going out of control and openly tainting the planet. The only explanation is that these older human cultures only took bits and pieces from somewhere else.
> 
> They have only mentioned the world as a human culture. Why do we never hear about it again? Because it's _Angron_ they made mad. :wink:
> 
> That could be, however, a world of human culture could also be a world heavily dominated by the human race. Doesn't mean it was absent xenos life. In Gladiator life, I'm sure there was great dealing with Xenos races for cool and scary monstrous xenos to put into the Arena.
> 
> 
> Sure, but that renders "Primarchs fell due to xenos" moot as a criticism against Alpharius. None of the other Primarchs fell while exterminating xenos or bringing them under compliance per the directives of the Council of Terra. Fulgrim fell because he grabbed a daemon sword. To a lesser degree, his Legion fell because Fabius played up to their Primarch's colossal arrogance.
> 
> Same could be said that Fulgrim did not fall because he grabbed a Daemon Sword. He fell because he allowed himself to fall. Either due to guilt with living with killing his brother or because of some perverse pleasure of feeling vulnerable (if you read the short story). The Xenos race though, was placed there as another taint for Fulgrim to consume. And only Fulgrim and maybe (Magnus) would have literally consumed objects from the xenos race. The other primarchs and legions being close minded would have burned everything down. Thats why before this no other legion fell.. or at least non that we know of. That brings me back to my example of Magnus. The xenos races were partially responsible for Magnus' downfall. Making him forever hungry for forbidden knowledge. And in doing so made him an outcast from the rest of his legion. (His conflict in the Library with Russ for example) His own heresy grew from his idleness. How else can we explain that he didn't fully understand his actions for bringing down the barriers of the Imperial Webway?
> 
> You would then be ignoring the ACTUAL reason for his fall, which is that Erebus was engaged in an ongoing conspiracy to corrupt him, on orders from his Primarch, who was in turn targeted by Chaos from day one and had been inundated in their religion from his youth.
> 
> The Actual reason isn't very easy to find. Erebus' influence was pretty much only through his primarch (Hence the corruption of Lorgar and his legion, the lodges, etc..). Whatever the "Actual Reason" was stems down a lot older than Erebus(Hence my reasoning about the Xenos). How could Erebus have known the Emperor was going to condemn Lorgar and his Legion the way he did? Even the Chaos Gods cannot know a specific future and especially with all the possible futures available. It is also unlikely they told Erebus every card that was going to fall, due to influence of the cards and the fact that he was but a pawn.
> 
> The Anatheme was a tool, pure and simple. A plot device. Had they never met the Interex, Erebus would have found some other way.
> 
> Maybe, maybe not. And to be fair, it would have been more unlikely. The blade itself did not turn Horus. It was choice and thought of betrayal. Choice in the fact he could have just died and not listened to the powers, and the thought of betrayal that his father, the Emperor, would forsaken him and his accomplishments. Had Horus not gone down to the Interex and been close minded like soo many of his brothers, he would had more time to see the Emperor's grand scheme. At that point all he knew was that the Emperor had gone to Terra for a unknown reason. I may be wrong but wasn't Erebus one that influenced Horus' ear about going down and making peace with the Interex? How should have Horus taken that? How about any other primarch? He probably would have been killed normally or the very least shunned by Horus. Never letting again Erebus or the Word Bearers close to His legion. From this point, I'm afraid desperate and less tactical measures would have been taken to make something at least partial to a Heresy. It was Horus and only Horus would make the Heresy to such grand a scheme as it was.
> 
> And it was the only time to do so. Could Erebus get another Daemon Weapon? And one just as powerful? Maybe? But to get so close without scarring him off and to taint his confused mind, this was the only time.
> 
> Back to the XENOS thing. This is where I think the Xenos were an important part to the Chaos Gods' designs (Can't call the Xenos the architects, because they are pawns), if it is as you say, and Erebus could have used another way without the Xenos... then why didn't he? This moment in the Heresy seems to be too many eggs to put into one basket.
> 
> 
> Again, you're relying on conjecture absent any evidence offered by the books. Magnus' fall is defined by his journeys into the Warp, and by his deal with Chaos (twice, at that) to save his Legion.
> 
> 
> Architects, as in designers of the Heresy? Absolutely not. Factors, as in happened to be involved in some secondary or even tertiary way? Sure. No one's denying that.
> 
> Well that's pretty much everything then. Afterall we are talking about what was the major reason for the Heresy. And though that is very difficult to say due to all the perfect moments and instances just perfectly happening one after another, the reasoning must stem from something much older. And though the Architects will obviously be the Chaos Gods and will say that there are lesser yet powerful forces that believe themselves to be architects in the Heresy. Erebus is a pawn and there was only so much he could do. All the little instances and events happening need to be a result of people or races or force that have a better grasp of the Galaxy than Erebus.
> 
> Cheers,
> P.


----------



## Vociferous Noun

I couldn't disagree more with the title of this thread. I think "Legion" is one of the best HH novels so far.

The pacing is good. Plenty of twists and turns, as befits a novel about the most cunning Space Marines of all. Manipulation on all sides, and from difference sources; it was fun trying to work out who was manipulating whom. It keeps you nicely in suspense and guessing right up until the end. 

Which is exactly what I wanted from a book about the crafty XX Legion. 

A legion who may or may not have been tricked into joining Horus. Be a delicious irony if true. The nature of the Cabal is not yet fully fleshed out. So will have to wait, and hopefully, find out...


----------



## Zooey72

The biggest point of difference I have with your argument is that Phoebe looks at the surface and no further. He takes a straight forward look at what was written and does not attempt to read anything else into it.

"The Outcast Dead" is an idiotic book if you only go as far looking at what was exactly written. Emperor > Dorn. Dorn wants to get/kill the prophecy guy. Emperor says to Dorn "Dorn don't do that. Bring him to me". The notion that he could not spare the time because of him holding back the Chaos breach holds no water. He found time to BS with that psycher and even play a few games of chess. He could have easily pulled Dorn off. It would have made for a more boring book, but that is the straight forward way of looking at it.

Also I have gone under the premise that the emp. who subdued a god in Mars, conquered most of the galaxy, and has been alive and planning this exact moment in time for at least 40k would not make a command like "kill all xenos" because he was too lazy to put in sub paragraphs with exceptions as to when not to kill xenos.

You use the Laer and Interex as examples of why it was not always "kill all xenos". Except, they did kill those xenos. That is like Dalmer trying to brag and say "hey, remember that guy I ALMOST didn't kill and eat?" But even if what you are saying is absolutely right and that was not the protocol. That directive towards xenos did not come from the Emperor. It came for politicians on Terra which kills your argument. The Emperor said kill all xenos. If some of the politicians on Terra and some primarchs (all of which who did not kill all xenos turned) did not follow that protocol that does not change what the Emperor said.

If they come out with a pre "Horus Rising" book (when the Emp. was running the Great Crusade) where it shows the Emperor bypassing planets or negotiating with xenos than I will be the first to say you were right. Until that book comes out your argument is that politicians and fallen primarchs were willing to deal with xenos... so that means the Emperor backs it?

Here is the problem. What does the Emperor know? From an author's stand point it would be boring to have the Emperor know everything because than the books suck. He just would not have made Lorgar or the 19th and 20th primarchs. Heresy solved. You also don't want to have him be a blundering fool. Phoebe seems to think that he is based off what he has said about the Lorgar smack down and Nikea.

You can speculate that the reason the Emperor didn't know what was going on with Horus is because he was pre-occupied making the imperial webway. I can see that. He didn't talk to Garro or turn off the defenses for Corax because Magnus broke the webway (I assume creating it was just as taxing). It probably took the entire eldar species to make their webway and the Emperor is trying to do it on his own. I can buy that. But that still does not explain why the Emperor acted the way he did prior to leaving Great Crusade.

-- Why did he allow the 1000 sons to keep mutating than leave it to a lesser mind (Magnus) to fix it? If it was fixable by anything less than a Chaos God the only person in the Galaxy who could have done it would have been the Emperor. By that same theme, why did he allow any genetic imperfections with his legions? And with a "1000 sons" book we know that he named the 1000 sons knowing they would mutate and their numbers would drop. Further when they fell to Chaos their numbers were at 1000 again. Too big of a coincidence.

-- Lorgar was right. If the Emperor had a problem with worship than why did he allow himself to be worshiped as a God for a century and than out of the blue say "screw you Lorgar" and seem to do everything he could do push Lorgar over the edge.

-- From "Horus Rising", The Imp. Fists were called back to Terra for apparently no reason. The Emperor just had a wild hair up his butt to recall the legion best known for defense right before the Heresy (and even before Horus was corrupted). It stinks of a plan or at least knowledge of what was going to come.

-- Ingethal from "The first Heretic" pointed out that if what the Emp did to create the primarchs was just a matter of genetics than why stop at 20? Why even have Astartes, just make armies of Primarchs. And in "Fulgrim" when Ferrus dies his head doesn't just get lopped off. Energy (warp?) comes out of him and attacks Fulgrim. We clearly do not know what is going on with that.


My point to these observations (and there are others) is to say. If the Emperor says "Kill all xenos" he has a good reason for it. In the end he may be wrong. We won't know until the last book is written. But to just look at the surface of the books and no further doesn't do justice to the books.


----------



## Phoebus

ckcrawford said:


> Very simply. With all due respect, you're relying on conjecture absent proof. You're assuming there has to be some sort of pre-human origin to Chaos worship.
> 
> By contrast, I'm relying on something stated quite succinctly by the characters of the Horus Heresy novels: that the old religions of Cholchis equated to Chaos worship, and that Chaos targeted Lorgar to be their champion/prophet/etc.
> 
> This still does not explain how such an organized cult go into existence. Again, from to time in the Heresy Novels on can imply that there was more to the extermination of Xenos throughout the Galaxy from the Emperor's decree.


I don't pretend to explain how these cults came to be. What I'm pointing out is that you're assuming they have xenos origins. The old "absence of evidence does not entail evidence of absence" concept only goes so far. In this case, Lorgar, Erebus, and Kor Phaeron genuinely believe that their approach is justified because all of these thousands of disparate, far-flung human cultures arrived at the same answers - which were tied to Chaos.

With that in mind, I think it's a bit of a reach to _assume_ xenos influence when the author skips the opportunity to even drop a hint as to its existence. Not so much in the sense that it COULD have happened*, but in the sense of engaging in a debate and trying to use that as a point... whent there's no direct evidence to back it up.

* (I don't discount the idea that the Emperor took a hardline stance against xenos because there was the potential for Chaos infiltration via their cultures - see the Laer, for instance)



> ADB writes this to remind the Heresy Community that the Heresy grew from within humanity and was planned out with strong roots. It still doesn't explain how a world fell into the influence of chaos without psykers going out of control and openly tainting the planet. The only explanation is that these older human cultures only took bits and pieces from somewhere else.


That's a very broad assumption. It ignores not just the fact that Chaos has been shown to make its own overtures and advances, but the subsequent question... which is "how did the xenos get in league with Chaos, then?"

Where the latter is concerned, you have two choices:
1. Xenos initiated contact with Chaos - somehow.
2. Chaos initiated contact with the Xenos - but not humans.

Number one strikes me as disingenuous in the sense that only Xenos were able to identify Chaos with their mythology/religion and thus tap into its power. Number two strikes me as disingenuous in the sense that Chaos would initiate contact with one species but not another. Even though that species was ascendant during the period of Eldar descent, spreading through the whole of the galaxy, and susceptible to use.

Point of fact, nothing about 40k or the Horus Heresy thus far even hints at the idea that humans _couldn't_ initiate their own Chaos cults. Quite the opposite, in fact. The millennia of isolation following Chaos' "attack" vis-a-vis the growing number of psykers would be perfect for promoting the development of a mythology/religion featuring the very supernatural forces that cast down the Terra-centric colonist groups.



> That could be, however, a world of human culture could also be a world heavily dominated by the human race. Doesn't mean it was absent xenos life. In Gladiator life, I'm sure there was great dealing with Xenos races for cool and scary monstrous xenos to put into the Arena.


Again, though, that's an assumption. With the same logic, I could argue that it was the Emperor himself who ran that world for the express purpose of pissing off Angron... but did so in disguise.



> Same could be said that Fulgrim did not fall because he grabbed a Daemon Sword.


Given that Graham McNeill expressly conveys that it's the daemon who influences, tempts, steers, etc., Fulgrim into so many of his decisions... I doubt it.



> The Xenos race though, was placed there as another taint for Fulgrim to consume.


And thus was simply a vehicle for the actual cause of the fall - Chaos.



> And only Fulgrim and maybe (Magnus) would have literally consumed objects from the xenos race. The other primarchs and legions being close minded would have burned everything down. Thats why before this no other legion fell.. or at least non that we know of.


To me, that's neither here nor there. I think you're focusing too much on the means by which Chaos attempted to corrupt the Primarchs versus the fact that, in each case, Chaos is the specific driving force behind the corruption.



> That brings me back to my example of Magnus. The xenos races were partially responsible for Magnus' downfall. Making him forever hungry for forbidden knowledge. And in doing so made him an outcast from the rest of his legion. (His conflict in the Library with Russ for example)


That is incorrect in more than one way.

First, Magnus' downfall was specifically tied to the Warp. He dabbled too much into it, thought himself safe from it, and even went so far as to enter a covenant with a power of the Warp to save his Legion. Whether he thought he was dealing with a xenos race is irrelevant - _he was dealing with Chaos._

Second, Magnus was never made "outcast from the rest of his legion." The closest he came to that was when Ahriman and a minority of the Thousand Sons Sorcerers decided to cast the Rubric to stop the mutations that Magnus was seemingly unable to put a halt to. But even then, it was Ahriman and his cabal who were exiled, and Magnus remained Primarch.

Third, his conflict with Russ was over knowledge in the library of a _human_ world... and it's not even qualified what was in it. Magnus just didn't want the record of an entire _human_ culture to be destroyed because they didn't want to Comply.



> His own heresy grew from his idleness. How else can we explain that he didn't fully understand his actions for bringing down the barriers of the Imperial Webway?


His heresy is due to his hubris/arrogance. Hence why he thought he would be able to control those powers, and why he thought the Emperor would forgive his obvious use of sorcery to warn him of Horus' treachery.



> The Actual reason isn't very easy to find.


Yes it is. It's literally spelled out. Chaos ran roughshod over Humanity. The Emperor aimed to stop this. He created the Primarchs. Chaos scattered them. They then sought to subvert Lorgar to their ways. They were unable to do so immediately, but they were able to use their minions (Erebus and Kor Phaeron) to influence him when he was most susceptible - when the Emperor punished him for insistence on deifing him. Erebus and Kor Phaeron at that point specifically pointed out that he could turn to the "old ways", which was essentially Chaos worship. He then goes on a Pilgrimage, adopts the worship of Chaos properly, and goes about orchestrating the Heresy.



> How could Erebus have known the Emperor was going to condemn Lorgar and his Legion the way he did? Even the Chaos Gods cannot know a specific future and especially with all the possible futures available. It is also unlikely they told Erebus every card that was going to fall, due to influence of the cards and the fact that he was but a pawn.


So? None of that precluded Chaos from going about their plan - which was to try to find a weak link to turn into their primary agent.



> Maybe, maybe not.


Huh? So what does "maybe not", mean? "Oh, well. We don't have a way to corrupt Horus Lupercal. I guess the Heresy just won't happen." How was that ever in the cards? :wink:



> The blade itself did not turn Horus. It was choice and thought of betrayal.


Again, the blade was just a vehicle. Its purpose was to put Horus in a position where he would be susceptible to... drumroll... the influence of Chaos. I have no idea what an alternative vehicle would have been, but had there been no Anatheme, Erebus' instructions would have remained the same: find some way to get Horus incapacitated in order to put him through a voodoo ritual that shows him biased visions capable of leading him to make a spiritual choice to turn against his father the Emperor.

The only way that would have changed is if Lorgar decided that there was a different way to go about the Heresy... or a variation of the same theme. E.g., if Sanguinius was the Warmaster, Chaos vis-a-vis Lorgar would have sought to corrupt him instead of Horus. Alternately, if Lorgar landed on Medusa, he wouldn't have been Chaos' target to be their prophet - it would have been the most suitable Primarch.

The bottom line being, the driving theme of the Horus Heresy is that *Chaos is looking to bring down the Imperium*. The authors could not have spelled that out more plainly for their readers.

With that in mind, and with no disrespect intended, I really don't see what the point is in arguing that "xenos" are somehow a driving cause of this. Is your argument that, had the Primarchs been more close-minded toward xenos, the Heresy would not have happened?



> ... if it is as you say, and Erebus could have used another way without the Xenos... then why didn't he?


I don't know, man. Why are the Luna Wolves called the Luna Wolves? Why not call into question every plot device the author uses? :biggrin:



> Well that's pretty much everything then. Afterall we are talking about what was the major reason for the Heresy.


And that was Chaos. Period. Everything that was used by Chaos to make the Heresy happen is just that - a tool, a vehicle, a plot device. Blaming xenos for the Heresy - or a Primarch's propensity to not exterminating xenos everywhere he saw them - is missing the point. It's like blaming the tripwire you fell over instead of me... when I was the one that set it... and then saying that it HAD to be the tripwire... otherwise why didn't I use a guillotine? :wink:



> ... there are lesser yet powerful forces that believe themselves to be architects in the Heresy.


Except we haven't seen a single one yet...



> Erebus is a pawn and there was only so much he could do. All the little instances and events happening need to be a result of people or races or force that have a better grasp of the Galaxy than Erebus.


... or it could be a case that Erebus is a committed worshipper of ancient Ruinous Powers who have supernatural influence over much of that Galaxy, control the forces that make or break the Imperium, and have already demonstrated their ability to wreck human civilization. :wink:

I'll take pick number two!

Cheers,
P.


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## Phoebus

Zooey72 said:


> The biggest point of difference I have with your argument is that Phoebe looks at the surface and no further. He takes a straight forward look at what was written and does not attempt to read anything else into it.


Come on, Zooey, if that was the case then why did I bother cross-referencing my thoughts on one novel with examples from another? More than that, if I thought that was the end-all of of the subject, I wouldn't be saying "I think", or "In my opinion". It just doesn't stop me with disagreeing with your assertions, that's all.

Also, my name is Phoebus. Phoebe's a name, but not a boy's name. :wink:



> "The Outcast Dead" is an idiotic book if you only go as far looking at what was exactly written. Emperor > Dorn. Dorn wants to get/kill the prophecy guy. Emperor says to Dorn "Dorn don't do that. Bring him to me". The notion that he could not spare the time because of him holding back the Chaos breach holds no water. He found time to BS with that psycher and even play a few games of chess. He could have easily pulled Dorn off. It would have made for a more boring book, but that is the straight forward way of looking at it.


I don't think it's idiotic because of the above synopsis. I think it's poorly written because Magnus somehow sends a warning for something that already happened. Great job, Magnus! Now, I can certainly look farther than what was written and assume that Chaos caused the message to be delayed... but without even a hint by the author that this happened, I (warning: opinion follows) think it comes down to bad writing. 



> Also I have gone under the premise that the emp. who subdued a god in Mars, conquered most of the galaxy, and has been alive and planning this exact moment in time for at least 40k would not make a command like "kill all xenos" because he was too lazy to put in sub paragraphs with exceptions as to when not to kill xenos.


That's fine. We just have different premises. When I read one book, and the Emperor's line seems to be "KILL ALL THE XENOS!" and then read another book and this line is amended to "UNLESS THEY WANT TO BE OUR PROTECTORATE!", then I understand that there's something more than meets the eye.

So, to sum up my _opinion_ on this sub-topic...

1. Is there an example of the Emperor saying "KILL ALL THE XENOS" _in these novels?_ *No.*
2. We do see several characters who indicate that the Imperium (and Space Marines specifically) has a hateful, intolerant, and violent stance toward xenos.
3. We also get dialogue where people advocate extermination of several different species - mostly toward ultra-violent, monstrous creatures that won't negotiate.
4. We also get an example where absorbing an alien society into the Imperium is considered a very viable option.
5. I think #2, 3, and 4 work together. That is, I think the Emperor has created an Imperium that is hateful, intolerant, and violent toward xenos because he doesn't want to complicate an already difficult proposition: to make Humanity so powerful that it can dominate the Galaxy and (somehow) defeat Chaos. To that end, I think he was willing to see as many xenos destroyed as necessary... but if some of them could be safely assimilated, so be it.



> You use the Laer and Interex as examples of why it was not always "kill all xenos". Except, they did kill those xenos.


Obviously. But you're saying that the Emperor's specific order was to kill all xenos... and I pointed out that the Council of Terra clearly was operating under a different understanding.

So, _I looked further than what was at the surface,_ and decided that there must have been some sort of policy that went beyond simple extermination. Until I see a quote wherein the Emperor says "No, what I meant was DESTROY THEM ALL!!!", I'll feel like that's a fair statement... supported by evidence.



> That directive towards xenos did not come from the Emperor. It came for politicians on Terra which kills your argument. The Emperor said kill all xenos.


Please provide a quote. 



> -- Why did he allow the 1000 sons to keep mutating than leave it to a lesser mind (Magnus) to fix it? If it was fixable by anything less than a Chaos God the only person in the Galaxy who could have done it would have been the Emperor.


One of the oldest themes in Warhammer 40k is that the Primarchs approached - and in some cases *exceeded* - the Emperor in power.

But don't take that as me saying Magnus was necessarily more powerful. I'm just saying that the Emperor isn't necessarily a guy who can make or fix everything. We can guess that he's not omnipotent because he (supposedly) needed Chaos (in some way, shape, or form) to create the Primarchs. We KNOW he's not omnipotent, because Chaos was screwing him over from day one - by stealing the Primarchs from under his roof.

My opinion is that he didn't just goof up with the Thousand Sons, but that Tzeentch (for his own reasons) deliberately sabotaged them. That the Emperor wasn't able to fix them doesn't mean he couldn't foresee an inkling of what was to happen. Until, of course, the Ruinous Powers went on overdrive and shut down his foresight (which probably allowed for Lorgar's manipulations to go unforeseen).



> -- Lorgar was right. If the Emperor had a problem with worship than why did he allow himself to be worshiped as a God for a century and than out of the blue say "screw you Lorgar" and seem to do everything he could do push Lorgar over the edge.


Take into consideration what the Emperor's priorities were. We know that there were thousands of fleets associated with the Great Crusade. Hundreds of those corresponded to one of his twenty Legiones Astartes. Hundreds of thousands of worlds were being added to his bureacracy.

Lorgar's worship, IMHO, was probably an _annoyance_ compared to everything else he had to deal with... *especially* when you compare him to headaches like Curze and Angron. I think what changed that was when he had to put down two other Primarchs, and he probably felt he had to do something. Personally, I thought this wrinkle was one that Aaron Dembski-Bowden should have used to make Lorgar's frustrations more convincing.

Readers criticize the extremity of the Emperor's reaction (sending Guilliman to trash Monarchia), but I think it goes back to the fact that we're not exactly dealing with a "human being" here. There's a whole topic on another sub-forum about whether Space Marines can (or should) be able to relate with a normal human... well, what about the Emperor?

With the exception of "The Outcast Dead", most of his depictions are mythologized records of what happened ten thousand years in the past. McNeill's take (in a novel I thought was far from perfect) was that the Emperor is in no way a normal human being and interacts with the world in an entirely alien way. This had to be taken into consideration when we wonder why the @#$% he acts the way he does.



> -- From "Horus Rising", The Imp. Fists were called back to Terra for apparently no reason. The Emperor just had a wild hair up his butt to recall the legion best known for defense right before the Heresy (and even before Horus was corrupted). It stinks of a plan or at least knowledge of what was going to come.


Absolutely. I think that when the Emperor realized he couldn't see/forecast what was going on, that was almost as alarming as seeing/forecasting that something bad was going to happen.

So he pulled back the Imperial Fists. But he couldn't strike out randomly because he didn't know who his enemy was. When Magnus warned him, he did so by breaking his rules AND by pointing the finger at his most trusted son. The Emperor didn't believe him. Then the Heresy begins, and the Emperor is in reaction mode.



> My point to these observations (and there are others) is to say. If the Emperor says "Kill all xenos" he has a good reason for it. In the end he may be wrong. We won't know until the last book is written. But to just look at the surface of the books and no further doesn't do justice to the books.


See above. I'm not just looking at the surface of things. I'm pointing out that the Emperor's policy is not as simple as "kill all xenos". 

Where this larger debate is concerned, I'm arguing that the driving factor behind all the corruptions has been Chaos... and that xenos, artifacts, etc., are simply tools that Chaos uses to achieve its ends. More importantly, though, they're plot devices for science fiction and thus hardly perfect. 

Cheers,
P.


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## cheeto

Apostle said:


> I mean in all honesty it WOULD have been nice to have a little more (not Alpha Legion per say) but more Omegon/Alpharius speaking with eachother). However Abnett did not drop the ball, and its easily easily in my top 5-6 Horus Heresy Novels



I'd like to lead with a statment. Abnett is one of the best writers I have ever read. That said, I think he did Legion 100% correct. After reading the book, there is still a mystique about Omegon and Alpharius.

Compare Legion to _Horus Rising... 
Before even reading any of the HH books, before they were even out, we had such amazing expectations. These aren't just men, and they aren't just Space Marines. Remember that in the 40k Universe even space Marines are regarded as myth by thousands of worlds. We are talking about primarchs, and Horus was the Warmaster! I suspect that greatness means something different to all of us, and perhaps that's why it may be best, in the end, to directly involve the primarchs in the books as little as possible.

I'm saying this because while I really enjoyed the first three books, there was one single thing that I didn't appreciate at all. Horus, the legendary primarch who shook the pillars of Heaven with his rebellion against the Emperor, a man who's cunning and power in battle is unsurpassed... came across as a whiny little politician bitch. Decades after reading references about Horus in White Dwarf magazine, imagine my disappointment. 

I think Abnet did Omegon and Alpharius right in Legion. Their mystique is intact and I'm left wanting to know more. Not as a fly in the room with the primarchs but from the perspective of those who reguarded the primarchs as gods._


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## Zooey72

I get what you are saying, I even agree with a lot of it. I just don't think you give the Emp. enough credit. I view the Emp. as Gerard Butler in "Law Abiding Citizen". I think the only reason he is on the Golden Throne is because that is exactly where he wants to be. I don't think he is good or evil, I think he is power. In the Fiction when he destroyed Horus he drove out all 4 Chaos gods. They ran because if they didn't they would have been destroyed. A being like that does not make mistakes. Ultimately I think Horus was right as far as what the Emperor was going to do after the Great Crusade. He destroyed the Thunder Warriors, why wouldn't he do it to the Astartes when they were no longer needed? 

I don't even dislike Alpha Legion as much since "Deliverance Lost". The legion made a comeback - mostly because Abnett wasn't writing them IMO.

The "Outcast Dead". Ya, you are right. The time line makes no sense. I won't try to defend it. I am hoping the authors will make sense of it in the future, but for now it just seems like sloppy work. They had to know the thousands of dorks like us would spot it. Or they didn't see it, which sucks more since they are the ones writing the stories.

You brought up a good point with the "Kill all xenos" thing. Not so much from your argument, but you got me thinking. My knee jerk reaction was to say "look at the rule books". It says in the fluff "Suffer not the xenos to live". But it also says the same thing about the Heretic. Heretic? The Emperor believed in the 'secular truth' (or at least went to great lengths to lie to all humanity about it). Heretic implies some kind of religion/worship. That had to come after the Heresy, but it is passed off as being straight from the Emperor's lips which it obviously wasn't. 

The biggest X factor is "how powerful is the Emperor"? Personaly I think he is Keyser Soze on steroids.

* He lets the last Hungarian go. He waits until his wife and kids are in the ground and then he goes after the rest of the mob. He kills their kids, he kills their wives, he kills their parents and their parents' friends. He burns down the houses they live in and the stores they work in, he kills people that owe them money. And like that he was gone. Underground. Nobody has ever seen him since. He becomes a myth, a spook story that criminals tell their kids at night. "Rat on your pop, and Keyser Soze will get you." And no-one ever really believes. *


Edited to add, sorry about the Phoebe thing. No disrespect intended. I was just being lazy and it was easier to remember Phoebe rather than Phoebus. Don't know where you got Phoebus from, but Phoebe is favorite charachter from "Catcher in the Rye".


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## Phoebus

Zooey72 said:


> I get what you are saying, I even agree with a lot of it. I just don't think you give the Emp. enough credit. ... I think the only reason he is on the Golden Throne is because that is exactly where he wants to be. I don't think he is good or evil, I think he is power. In the Fiction when he destroyed Horus he drove out all 4 Chaos gods. ... A being like that does not make mistakes.


I don't know whether the Emperor is infallible or not. I can't give you a qualified opinion. What I do know is that the novels *qualify* that he is *not* omnipotent - they are able to conceal the developing Heresy from him. That's not necessarily the same as "making mistakes", but it does show that it is possible for him to fail.

Where driving the four Chaos Gods out is concerned, I'll reserve the right to wait until that book is written before committing to "what happened"... but I think there's probably a difference between "driving four Chaos gods out" (of a mortal host whom they are empowering) and facing the full might of the actual Ruinous Powers.



> Ultimately I think Horus was right as far as what the Emperor was going to do after the Great Crusade. He destroyed the Thunder Warriors, why wouldn't he do it to the Astartes when they were no longer needed?


Right about what? I'm pressed for time so I can't provide quotes right now, but in "False Gods" Erebus seizes on Horus' doubts as to why the Emperor goes back to Terra and provides him with a false vision that (A) plays on his fears by showing a future where the Emperor is worshipped as god (making his father look like a hypocrite), (B) Horus is forgotten/unknown (playing on the Warmaster's own ego). That Erebus withholds the fact that this future is only possible if Horus rebels to begin with it the cherry on the cake! :wink:

I don't recall anything in those visions about destroying the Astartes, though. I'll have to double-check on that... you got me curious. 



> You brought up a good point with the "Kill all xenos" thing. Not so much from your argument, ...


Zing. :wink:



> ... but you got me thinking. My knee jerk reaction was to say "look at the rule books". It says in the fluff "Suffer not the xenos to live". But it also says the same thing about the Heretic. Heretic? The Emperor believed in the 'secular truth' (or at least went to great lengths to lie to all humanity about it). Heretic implies some kind of religion/worship. That had to come after the Heresy, but it is passed off as being straight from the Emperor's lips which it obviously wasn't.


A lot (if not most) of the material in the rulebooks, Index Astartes, etc., is written from the POV of the Imperium in the year 40,999. The record is rife with propaganda, mythology, and missing material. Consider how little we know about Alexander the Great, or how much of the surviving information we have is known to be exaggerated/inaccurate.

The Imperium in the present is virulently anti-Xenos. The Emperor himself was certainly ruthless against Xenos (he saw entire species wiped out, had no patience for those who would stand against a human galactic empire)... but there was apparently room for assimilation of certain xenos societies under certain conditions.



> Edited to add, sorry about the Phoebe thing. No disrespect intended. I was just being lazy and it was easier to remember Phoebe rather than Phoebus. Don't know where you got Phoebus from, but Phoebe is favorite charachter from "Catcher in the Rye".


Phoebus is my name - and no offense was taken.


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## Zooey72

Wanted to add, I don't believe this for a second.
*
One of the oldest themes in Warhammer 40k is that the Primarchs approached - and in some cases exceeded - the Emperor in power.*

All 18 of the primarchs knew their station in life. Even the ones who hated him from the onset like Mort and Angron knew that while being the best at what they do they were just a shadow of what the Emperor is capable of. Angron can get mad? His tantrums would seem like PMS when compared to what the Emperor is capable of when he really gets pissed.

I think all 20 primarchs = 1 Emperor. They all reflect an aspect of the Emp. But I also think the Emp can beat any one of them at their own specialty. Think of how he met Magnus as opposed to how he met Angron. Magnus would not have respected him if he gave him a wedgy and 'booked him'.

As much as Angron may have hated it, he could not have followed the Emperor unless he was bested by the Emperor (I am not asking you to follow me, I am telling you). There is very little diplomacy with Angron and the World Eaters. Might does make right. The Emperor calmly talking to Angron about the wonders of the Imperium would have been met with a chain axe. Magnus even says in "1000 sons" that the highest rank is reserved for the Emp. He knows his place (or at least did pre-hersey)


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## Zooey72

I don't know whether the Emperor is infallible or not. I can't give you a qualified opinion. What I do know is that the novels qualify that he is not omnipotent - they are able to conceal the developing Heresy from him. That's not necessarily the same as "making mistakes", but it does show that it is possible for him to fail.

I disagree. I think he has an overall plan. The only reason he is on the Golden Throne is that is exactly where he wants be. IMO the Heresy was just stage 1 of he is trying to accomplish.

Food for thought. What do you think 10,000 years worth of fanatical worship does to a near like god being in the warp?


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## Zooey72

*I don't recall anything in those visions about destroying the Astartes, though. I'll have to double-check on that... you got me curious.*

Not a vision as much as common sense. Horus was no fool. What happens to us (Astartes) after we win the "Great Crusade"? They have no station in life. The war has been won. And looking at the Thunder Warriors the Astartes could expect the same fate. I am no big fan of the Emp. despite our argument. I think the Emp. would have thrown Magnus on the Golden Throne in a second to scream into the void for eternity if it meant he got his webway.. 

Horus saw it. He hated making complianted worlds just to see them turned over to politicians. He conquered them, he should rule them. He is Warmaster after all. Where did the corruption first start? I don't think it was him getting poked with a sword on Davin.

If you are hazy on what Horus said, look up the talks he had with the Remembercer from "Horus Rising". He also said that Sanguiness would be a better Warmaster, and most shocking of all is that he mentioned a gold ring that his father gave him a year b4 the emp was born. I am as old as dirt (40), so I remember the old fluff.


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## mal310

Zooey72 said:


> I disagree. I think he has an overall plan. The only reason he is on the Golden Throne is that is exactly where he wants be. IMO the Heresy was just stage 1 of he is trying to accomplish.


Hate that idea, absolutely hate it. Would remove all tragedy from the setting IMO. The way the Heresy books have been written does not indicate that this is the case at all.


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## Phoebus

Zooey72 said:


> Wanted to add, I don't believe this for a second.
> *
> One of the oldest themes in Warhammer 40k is that the Primarchs approached - and in some cases exceeded - the Emperor in power.*


That's not my opinion. That's one of the oldest quotes from Warhammer 40k rulebooks.

That having been said, I think what they (the writers) were trying to say in that case was that a Primarch might approach - or exceed - the Emperor in a certain _aspect_ of power.



Zooey72 said:


> I disagree. I think he has an overall plan. The only reason he is on the Golden Throne is that is exactly where he wants be. IMO the Heresy was just stage 1 of he is trying to accomplish.


"Omnipotent" means "all-powerful" - it has nothing to do with having an "overall plan". Feel free to disagree with me. Like I said, neither one of us will know for sure until the last books are written.

Personally, though, I think what happened to the Emperor was the absolute worst-case scenario. I think there is enough evidence out there that shows that the Emperor's "master plan" was - basically - to:

1. Isolate humanity from Chaos through a secular society - deny the Ruinous Powers their biggest source of "fuel".
2. Utilize the Webway to give humanity galactic reach without being tainted by Chaos.

Instead, the Emperor is stuck in agonizing limbo, serving as the figurehead (and lighthouse) of a brutal theocracy whose very actions ultimately ensure Chaos just gets stronger.



> Food for thought. What do you think 10,000 years worth of fanatical worship does to a near like god being in the warp?


Ian Watson's take - in the "Inquisition War" trilogy - was that they go insane. :wink:



Zooey72 said:


> Not a vision as much as common sense. Horus was no fool. What happens to us (Astartes) after we win the "Great Crusade"? They have no station in life. The war has been won. And looking at the Thunder Warriors the Astartes could expect the same fate. I am no big fan of the Emp. despite our argument.


Interestingly, though, Horus never mentions it. His concern seems centered on hubris - his fears that his dad is on a power-worship trip, ironically exarcebated by the fact that he himself isn't famous in the future. :wink:

More seriously, though, Horus isn't worried about his warriors being wiped out; he's worried about them becoming obsolete. The Great Crusade is the war to end all wars, and what will happen to the Legiones Astartes is voiced throughout many novels. Some characters (uincluding Horus) resent the idea that they will have to answer to bureaucrats. Others believe the idea is silly - that there will always be another war. Still others - in "Know No Fear" - probably have exactly the right idea: that, while the Astartes are magnificent warriors, their powers and abilities are such that they could be much more. With their minds, they could potentially become the next class of leaders/rulers/managers/etc.



> I think the Emp. would have thrown Magnus on the Golden Throne in a second to scream into the void for eternity if it meant he got his webway..


Absolutely. 



> Where did the corruption first start? I don't think it was him getting poked with a sword on Davin.


There's a difference between having a flaw (hubris) and the process of being corrupted.



> ... and most shocking of all is that he mentioned a gold ring that his father gave him a year b4 the emp was born. I am as old as dirt (40), so I remember the old fluff.


You'll have to remind me where that's at. 

Cheers,
P.


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## Zooey72

I am going to have to dig up my old "Horus Rising" book to give you the page number.

The old time fluff was that the emp was created by the ritualistic suicide of 10,000 shaman. On the day that all of them died the Gold ring was created. A year later the Emp was born as the embodiement of all of those shaman. In "Horus Rising" Horus reflects on his father giving him the ring (I believe he wears it as a necklace). He even goes so far to say that the ring is one year older than the Emp.


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## Phoebus

Nice! I've been meaning to re-read the novels to hit up on tidbits like that again.


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