# Question about Carnifexes + need anti-tank help!



## Kaithan (Aug 20, 2009)

*Carnifex setup + anti-tank question ^^*

I'm a bit puzzled about the the Carnifex ranged weapon choices and CC viableity.

About the ranged weapons:
I'm curious why people always use twin-linked devourer setup on a carnifex ? (I'm not including the barbed strangler + venom cannon combo. Thats a really nice setup ^^ + nice loooong range xD)
A devourer has only a 18" range, AP - , max S6. The problem I have that how the heck they survive until they get to 18"?
Most of the shooting units in the game shoot from 24"+ and the zero AP is a bit problematic especially vs marines and a like (ok there is the re-roll for hit and wounds but...). The fex would be killed from further afar before he even starts shooting xD

About the CC fex:
I have read though some tyranid related posts and most said that a CC fex is just as good as dead-meat. I thought that the CC fex is the real anti-tank in the tyranid army. Other than a fex, the venom cannon can only glance-hit a non-open topped vehicle (demonic possession is all but immune to stun/crew shaken :alcoholic. A zoantrope is the only other option but it needs a psy test to fire the bigger 18" (S10 AP2 Assault1) blast. So... ? 

I would welcome some info about this that how this works.
And some advice about anti-tank (vs vehicle heavy troops, especially the chaos demonic possession) tactics would be more than welcome ^^


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## Shadow Hawk (Apr 26, 2009)

I don't know much about 'nids but a CC 'fex should blow up a tank easy. Upgrade it to S10 and as it is a monstorus (spelling?) creature it gets 2d6 to penerate, so for most tanks automatic penetration. Give it as many attacks as possible, so there is more chance you will wreck or destroy the tank. The resulting blast shouldn't do much to the 'fex.
Maybe to divert attention from the fex, send something big. maybe not big by itself, maybe a huge unit of gaunts or something distracting straight towards the enemy, or you could send a hive tyrant. Anything to distract the othe player whilst you move your 'fex keeping in as much cover as possible. If you're fighting against guard or a mech list, I would definately go with a beefed up full strength, attack, toughness, armour save 'fex.


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

Any good tyranid player will tell you the venom cannon is overrated, go with zoanthropes and cc fexes to deal with heavy tanks (the biovores, bio acid spore mine is mean on paper but i have yet to see anyone brave or foolish enough to try it). Also the twin-liked devorers on a carnifex is usually done to compensate for the fact that the carnifex can't hit for beans (the other way around this is to shoot barbed stranglers). the idea being that if the carnifex pelted out enough shots (or a big enough shot) at least some would hit and deal a lethal blow.


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## cafel (Dec 21, 2008)

CC fexes aren't the great tank buster they appear to be on paper because most high armor shooting tanks will be too far away to engage before they shoot your fex full of holes and by the time you manage to reach them it's already late in the game. The transports that come closer to drop of troops will be moving and thus harder hit and taking a boomfex or a dakka fex means that you can take out the squad they've already dropped off and then pop the transport later, at range or in CC. I generally try to stun tanks that are shooting and I generally deepstrike a lictor in terrain that looks like it'll be a good place for a tank to set up. 

Dakka fexes are good because a) they're cheap, b) they're great against swarms with bad armor saves and good against units with good armor saves (you discount the re-roll to hit and to wound, but it means that you're usually getting 4-5 wounds, of which the squad will take about 2 casualties.) Still I take boomfexes, and leave the dakka for the tyrants.


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

I am aware of the cc fex's limitations when it comes to tank hunting, the problem is it is one of the only viable options tyranid players have. the Venom cannon is worthless, so really the only options are as follows: zoanthropes with warp blast (best choice :victory, bioacid spore mines (preferably fired from a biovore), or a monsterous creature like the carnifex, which really has to get into cc if it really wants to use that awesome strength. Rending is good for light-medium tanks but the cc problem arises there too except there is a greater chance of failure because you need to roll a 6 for it to work. I'm not saying the cc fex is the end-all-to-be-all anti tank nid unit, i'm saying its one of the few options available. Personally the cc fex is best for holding/contesting ground and attacking infantry with high armor saves, like a tactical sm squad or a shooty terminator squad if it can get close.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Basically, melee Fexes are primarily for shock value.
You kit out a fairly cheap one (2 talons, and extra wound), run it towards the enemy, what do you think that'll do to them?
They're gonna freak out, because they KNOW that if that hits their lines, they're dead meat.

So, they either scatter their forces, or focus all their heavy guns on it, this draws attention away from your more important units.
Synapse creatures, more expensive Fexes with guns, Hive Tyrants, Genestealers.


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## elkhantar (Nov 14, 2008)

Well, do you realize a dakkafex is actually still pretty good in CC against a tank? ok, it has two attacks less than the ninjafex, but it still has three on the charge. And the short range of its guns means that it's trodding forward already. Simply charge any vehicle that gets in range and that's it. 

Also, vs any kind of light vehicle (land speeders or something), the dakkafex is not that bad, since the high number of shots make it very likely to shake or stun the vehicle. You simply do not target tough vehicles with dakka, just like you wouldn't shoot a bolter to a monolith. There are better tools for that job.

The main advantage of the dakkafex over the CC fexes is that the 'threat bubble' is actually quite large, 24'' if you take into account movement and weapon range, whereas the CC fexes can't touch anything 13'' away, and thus is quite easy to run away from them. Also, although CC fexes are not too shabby, they are destroyed by CC specialists (daemonettes, genestealers, Harlequins, Grey Knights, Furioso Dreadnoughts, daemon princes... the list goes on and on), due to their low I, whereas dakkafexes can shoot without retaliation.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

elkhantar said:


> Also, although CC fexes are not too shabby, they are destroyed by CC specialists (daemonettes, genestealers, Harlequins, Grey Knights, Furioso Dreadnoughts, daemon princes... the list goes on and on), due to their low I, whereas dakkafexes can shoot without retaliation.


Am I the ONLY person who uses Catalyst?
If you use Catalyst (only on your turn actually :S) then even if they DO kill you, you still get to screw their face inward.


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## Kaithan (Aug 20, 2009)

Hm quite a bit nice ideas here :3
Thanks for the fast reply btw ^^

I'm aware that the limits of the CC fex (mostly they got out runned and gunned down if used unvisely), thats why I was asking what can be done about this ?
Though I guess in psyhic warfare it is really shocking to see some huge fex march toward you that just don't die to troop gunfire XD (I guess guardsman would just scream xD)
Anyways, I was thinking about using boomfexes. They are versatile vs infantry and tanks too (only glance hit though :/). If i ever make a melee fex it will be a bit hybrid, since i don't like the idea that it is shot to pieces or outrunned and can't fight back.
The only dilemma I have is that a chaos party with tank usually have demonic possession (hence immune to stun) witch makes the venom cannon useless. Zoantrope FTW xD

So ^^
If I mount a fex with a twin-linked devourer it will be still a vialable option in CC too if he gets close (if equipped with scyting talons and a like ^^)? 

Hmmm but why not twin-linked deathspitter ? It has ap and a longer range + higher Strenght than a devourer. Or a Barbed strangler twin linked?

In the future, please do not post detailed statistics that can be found in a Games Workshop publication. -TSoH


The only problem i have with the Devourer is that it don't have any AP :/
Witch means any MEqs with 3+ SV would laugh their head off XD Though I must admit that Ork Boys won't laugh that much with their 6+ :3
+ the Devourer has the shortest range, no template (sometimes this is fortunate though XD since I don't shoot my own army with an unfortunate scatter roll ).
Question: the Barbed strangler has an assault 1/large blast. Is that mean that I have 2 firing options like:
1. move+shoot--->no template
2. stay put-->template
3. Or I'm totally off ? XD


Thoughts ?


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## Kaithan (Aug 20, 2009)

Winterous said:


> Am I the ONLY person who uses Catalyst?
> If you use Catalyst (only on your turn actually :S) then even if they DO kill you, you still get to screw their face inward.


Planning to give a try to the bonesword on one of my Tyrant that is geared to support anyways  that way I have nearly anybody within 24" with catalyst... at least worth a try imo ^^
3 the lash whip is a nice addition too :3 (-1 att per turn for the tangled mob ^^)

I think the Catalyst is a bit overlooked and underrated to oblivion, but I think it really has its tactical advanteges. Especially in a melee heavy army where you can give a chance to your broods to actually try to kill something before dieing.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Kaithan said:


> Wall of text.


Well, first of all a Boomfex is Scything Talons and a Barbed Strangler, it's quite cheap, and arguably one of the more effective builds.
It has a S8 gun that CAN penetrate armour, so it's not bad against any target without really good armour/save.
And it's got 3 attacks in melee, plenty.


TL Devourer on a Fex is quite good really, you have a 75% chance to hit (so with 2 of them, that means an average of 6 hits), and then basically all of those will wound against infantry.

The Deathspitter is a bit iffy, it's got better range, yes, and is better against vehicles, but it's arguably useful.
The reroll to scatter is useful for a Horde army over the Barbed Strangler, because it makes the friendly fire risk negligible.
Ultimately, it's my view that the Deathspitter is ineffective compared to the alternatives, but it's also quite a low risk, multi-purpose weapon for not much.

And really, Nid guns are TERRIBLE against armour, the AP doesn't even come into consideration.
The Deathspitter and Devourer have the exact same chance to kill a Space Marine, regardless of their AP values.



Kaithan said:


> Planning to give a try to the bonesword on one of my Tyrant that is geared to support anyways  that way I have nearly anybody within 24" with catalyst... at least worth a try imo ^^
> 3 the lash whip is a nice addition too :3 (-1 att per turn for the tangled mob ^^)
> 
> I think the Catalyst is a bit overlooked and underrated to oblivion, but I think it really has its tactical advanteges. Especially in a melee heavy army where you can give a chance to your broods to actually try to kill something before dieing.


Actually, the Bonesword works differently to the actual Catalyst power.
You take the test the same, but then (if passed) it gives the Catalyst effect to EVERY friendly unit within 6" of the Tyrant; the Tyrant also always has the effect (doesn't do much really)

Actual Catalyst is a single friendly unit within 24".

So, while frankly, the power is better, it does use up a slot.
The Bonesword is a great alternative, and helps against monsters (like Dreadnoughts) because of the Whip, it also allows you to use Catalyst if you see that it might be needed, by deploying the Tyrant with the requirees, and moving them close together.

Personally, I (quite shamefully ) like to take a 'Codex standard' Tyrant.
That's right, the one that's shown most in the Codex.

Venom cannon, Lash Whip and Bone Sword, Toxin Sacs, and Warp Blast.
This provides quite a powerful gun platform.
Pumping out 3 S8 shots a turn, he can provide suppressive fire against Vehicles quite easily.
And he has Warp Blast (focussed blast being why he doesn't have Enhanced Senses), which gives your army some MUCH needed anti-MEQ, and a solid anti-vehicle shot for when you need it.

It's also quite an inexpensive build, and is surprisingly effective.

Either take it with some Tyrant Guard, or give it Extended Carapace.
Either protects it amply, but the effectiveness is dependent on your playstyle.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

The reason Catalyst isn't effective is because all of the troops in combat have a high I anyway. The only thing it really affects is Carnifexs, who shouldn't be charging anything that is a threat to it anyway.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> The reason Catalyst isn't effective is because all of the troops in combat have a high I anyway. The only thing it really affects is Carnifexs, who shouldn't be charging anything that is a threat to it anyway.


*cough*
What about Hormagaunts hurtling into combat with someone in cover?
It would certainly suck to pay for Flesh Hooks for all of them, so Catalyst is a cheaper alternative.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Flesh Hooks>Catalyst in any case where you are fighting models with an I less than 5(4 without glands), equal when fighting enemies at I5(4 without glands) and worse when fighting models with an I greater than 5(which you shouldn't be charging with hormaguants but stealers instead).

Flesh Hooks mean you can kill their models and reduce the amount of attacks coming back, Catalyst still means you die.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Flesh Hooks>Catalyst in any case where you are fighting models with an I less than 5(4 without glands), equal when fighting enemies at I5(4 without glands) and worse when fighting models with an I greater than 5(which you shouldn't be charging with hormaguants but stealers instead).
> 
> Flesh Hooks mean you can kill their models and reduce the amount of attacks coming back, Catalyst still means you die.


Yeah but like, if you have a squad of 20 Hormagaunts, you aren't gonna buy them Flesh Hooks, it's a waste of points on such a puny model.
If they're expendable, and in great enough numbers to not give a KP or die from the counter attacks, then Catalyst is great.
You can do the damage, and still retreat them to capture an objective.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

I think another part of the problem is that Hormagaunts are generally viewed as kinda bad by a good number of the Tyranid playing population. Also, Catalyst has the annoying tendency of requiring a psychic test which can really lead to problems against certain armies. In competitive environments your chances of getting Catalyst to work aren't that great with all the Eldar and Inquisitors with psychic hoods hanging about.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> I think another part of the problem is that Hormagaunts are generally viewed as kinda bad by a good number of the Tyranid playing population. Also, Catalyst has the annoying tendency of requiring a psychic test which can really lead to problems against certain armies. In competitive environments your chances of getting Catalyst to work aren't that great with all the Eldar and Inquisitors with psychic hoods hanging about.


True enough, but against armies where it requires that, you can simply alter your tactics to avoid the necessity.
The point is though, that in my Tyrant build, it's costing you basically nothing.

You're not outfitted for melee, so Talons aren't gonna be a huge help.
You're using Warp Blast, so another gun is a waste.
And there's nothing else to put in the slot.

It's my view that a single Catalyst in an army is PLENTY, because the chance you'll need it more than once a turn is negligible.
Heck, it's a rare enough need as it is, and you can see it coming a mile away, so you can plan ahead and keep the Tyrant nearby.

It also helps with Raveners, because they CAN'T take Flesh Hooks (excuse me if I'm wrong), and they aren't scoring units, so kamikazeing them isn't that big of a deal (they're a pretty niche unit anyway).


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Catalyst is a nice power that I would take if my army build was different. I dont like and indeed no longer have any hormogaunts, Im not a great fan of genestealers either, when I do take them mine have their own flesh hooks.
If I ran an army that had hormogaunts as cheap expendable troops (wouldnt want to pay for upgrades) and stealers with feeder tendrils (as seems to be the norm) then I would go for catalyst at the very least and quite possibly catalyst and bonesword since it would boost my combat power hugely.

Its the age old problem with fexs too- you have a 1W fex left roaming about but know that if it attacks any squad with a power weapon (or just gets unlucky) it'll die before doing anything at all... times like this means catalyst is really needed, but not something Im ever gonna throw into an army if most of my units are never gonna need it (I run MC/gaunt/zoanthrope/biovore lists usually so Im either high I with flesh hooks, guarded, tough as nails or shooty.


As for fexs tank killing I cant stress how much I like the bioplasma/spikebanks combo on CC fexs- most vehicles that get close to a fex will be moving fast (and in my experience tend to be driving past the fex to get away so show their rear armour.. or are AV10 anyway). Having 2 TL S6 shots in the bag in a nice little bonus for only 5 points and gives something like a 6% chance of immobalising/stunning agaist AV10. Immobalising means you're hitting automatically, stunning means you auto-hit next turn. 
The bioplasma suddenly comes into its own against fast vehicles; since you're hitting on 6+ normally but 4+ with bioplasma its effectively the same as 3 normal attacks (that you are S10+D6 rather then S9+2D6 doesnt make any difference at all against most vehicles).

Shooting I find S8 barbed stranglers do the job nicely... never yet used VCs, need to convert the next fex I get into a sniperfex.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> Catalyst is a nice power that I would take if my army build was different. I dont like and indeed no longer have any hormogaunts, Im not a great fan of genestealers either, when I do take them mine have their own flesh hooks.
> If I ran an army that had hormogaunts as cheap expendable troops (wouldnt want to pay for upgrades) and stealers with feeder tendrils (as seems to be the norm) then I would go for catalyst at the very least and quite possibly catalyst and bonesword since it would boost my combat power hugely.
> 
> Its the age old problem with fexs too- you have a 1W fex left roaming about but know that if it attacks any squad with a power weapon (or just gets unlucky) it'll die before doing anything at all... times like this means catalyst is really needed, but not something Im ever gonna throw into an army if most of my units are never gonna need it (I run MC/gaunt/zoanthrope/biovore lists usually so Im either high I with flesh hooks, guarded, tough as nails or shooty.
> ...


Yeah I agree, it's really only something to take if you see a need for it.
It can REALLY help Carnifexes against Walkers though, they'll often do enough damage for 1/2 wounds, which hurts, and can kill you.

And I agree with the Bio/Spines Fex build, it's really quite good.
I've never tried Spines, but I can see why it works.
And the Bio plasma, while yes, sucks against anything with good armour, is GREAT against vehicles moving over 6".


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Winterous, you realise you can't fire Warp Blast+Bio-weapon right? The way I read your post seems like it is based on the assumption you can.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Winterous, you realise you can't fire Warp Blast+Bio-weapon right? The way I read your post seems like it is based on the assumption you can.


o_õ
*flicks through codex*

FUCK.
Ok well then, changing that loadout is in order.
What would you suggest is a better one?
Obviously a Venom Cannon and Warp Blast go together in a kind of mutually defunct relationship, as both fill the anti-tank role.

So, Warp Blast and an anti-infantry gun?
Warp Blast isn't a spectacular weapon against light infantry, it's good because of the AP.
So TL devourers would do quite well as a substitute, but once again, we're not using the full shooting potential.
A single Barbed Strangler would do well, long range, S5 (with TS), great anti-infantry, and taking a second one only makes it twin linked, so you're not wasting the extra slot _as much._

Melee weapons?
That would make full use of Warp Blast, and make him a still formidable opponent in hand to hand.
Although you're wasting the melee emphasis by not running.

Argh, fucking sentence had to have that phrase, didn't it??
I think a Barbed Strangler is the way to go, nice duality of purpose right there.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yeah, I hate that sentence too- used to use my old 2nd ed tyrant with no conversion (barbed strangler, lash whip + BS) with an added warp blast until I found out it wasnt fired as just another weapon.. since then I havent used it (edit- warp blast, tyrant has been converted and always gets used). Would be tempted to put it on my scythed flyrant if I didnt like psychic scream so much.
- though on a linked note spikebanks also have a fun line in their rules. They fire as a spinefist "in addition to any other weapons used". Fex can fire 3 guns a turn (though admittedly its not great I would shove it on any heavy support dakkafex).


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## elkhantar (Nov 14, 2008)

Well, it depends on what roles you have covered in your army, but I hope you'll figure how good a dakkatyrant really is. 

Yeah, dual devourers again. We know that it lacks AP, but with 12 shots at a good BS and decent str (with TS) that re-roll to hit and wound? don't worry about the lack of AP, it's the number of shots that will bring the enemy down. Grab a couple of guards to protect him (and claim cover saves behind gaunts) and you're good to go.

The unit provides synapse, is not horribly expensive, hits as hard as a train in CC (since the tyrant is pretty good and the guards are killer too) is tough as nails (lots of high T 3+ save wounds) and packs a lot of punch shooting too. It spells good army centerpiece to me.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

elkhantar said:


> Well, it depends on what roles you have covered in your army, but I hope you'll figure how good a dakkatyrant really is.
> 
> Yeah, dual devourers again. We know that it lacks AP, but with 12 shots at a good BS and decent str (with TS) that re-roll to hit and wound? don't worry about the lack of AP, it's the number of shots that will bring the enemy down. Grab a couple of guards to protect him (and claim cover saves behind gaunts) and you're good to go.
> 
> The unit provides synapse, is not horribly expensive, hits as hard as a train in CC (since the tyrant is pretty good and the guards are killer too) is tough as nails (lots of high T 3+ save wounds) and packs a lot of punch shooting too. It spells good army centerpiece to me.


Oh definitely man, a Dakkatyrant is a MONSTER.
It just wouldn't go well in my army.

I usually play something like this in 1.5k:
26 Hormagaunts with +i, and +s
32 Termagaunts
8-16 Genestealers with Flesh Hooks and Scuttlers (for outflanking)
1 Carnifex with Talons and Strangler
Hive Tyrant with aforementioned build, with 1-2 Guard
6-9 Warriors with Toxin Sacs and mostly Deathspitters
2-3 Zoanthropes, usually with Warp Blast and Psychic Scream
A few ripper bases

As you can see, I'm GREATLY lacking in anti-tank weaponry.
So I was hoping to use the VC/WB build to cover that well, but not gonna happen.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Premise 1: There are no great ranged anti-tank units/weapons in the Tyranid list
Premise 2: A CC carnifex is too slow to have an impact in every game. Is way too slow to chase tanks.
Premise 3: Generally a stunned vehicle is enough for the turn.

Conclusion: The venom cannon, while not great, is still mandatory in competative Tyranid lists.

I run with two sniper fex's at 1500pts- generally at opposite ends of the board to always have side armour. For the same reason I run a cc flyrant rather than a dakka one. You can get dakka elsewhere in the list, but the flyrant is the only fast model capable of getting vehicles in cc.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Venom Cannon/Twin-Deathspiter might be useful. The extra S7 blast would be fairly accurate, due to Enhanced Senses (which you cna take because of no warpblast) and re-rolling the dice due to Twin-linked. Helps against vehicles, giving you another chance at stunning and also against infantry to a certain degree, though you will probably want to be using him for tanks more often than not.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

For a few more points the deathspitter can be upgraded to a barbed strangler which is generally much more effective. It also goes much better with the VC (range and strength).


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

OddJob said:


> For a few more points the deathspitter can be upgraded to a barbed strangler which is generally much more effective. It also goes much better with the VC (range and strength).


We're talking about a Hive Tyrant here, so a Strangler is max S5 on him.
Good idea Wolf Lord, if I give him Catalyst instead of WB that'd work well.
Fulfilling the niche, and also providing ample firepower.
I'll still only have 2-3 Warp Blasts, but that's plenty I guess.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I tend to run:
Dakka Tyrant
0-3 tyrant guard
Scythed Flyrant
3 Boomfex
0-1 Godfex (new addition- used for fun/bullet magnate)
3 zoanthropes
3 biovores (bio acid)
0-9 warriors (4 TL-dev, 1 barbed, 4 deathspitter)
many many gaunts

So far I rarely have trouble with enemy armour (fully mech lists give me trouble but I normally pull through fine.. havent played a mech IG army yet though). Biovores are actually awesome against any cluster of vehicles , boomfex are adequate against light vehicles if needed, zoanthropes blast away (and do nohting) if the enemy gets close, in a few turns my flyrant will be in range to charge and eventually when the body of my line reaches the enemy the boomfex can shread any surviving targets (the dakkafex getting a shot off at rear armour on a tank shouldnt be ignored either- it often gets dismissed as a non-threat).
Thats not to say that I have an easy time playing mech (its certainly the best way to beat my/all nid armies) but I think I have a better time then some.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> Biovores are actually awesome against any cluster of vehicles


Oh yeah, had 3 with Toxin mines destroy (DESTROY) 3 Vultures in one round of shooting XD


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## elkhantar (Nov 14, 2008)

Tim/Steve said:


> I tend to run:
> Dakka Tyrant
> 0-3 tyrant guard
> Scythed Flyrant
> ...


My list is similar to this, change the godfex and the biovores for sniperfexes and that's about it. It works ok vs mech lists too, except when there's LR spam. It works pretty well vs anything lighter, though :grin:

Also, depending on the game I may take a couple of small scuttling genestealer broods (perhaps dropping one of the boomfexes) and make sure to tell my oponent that there will be a couple of scuttling genestealer units. 

That gives him good reason to bunch his troops far from the table edge, thus making more juicy targets for my barbed stranglers :biggrin:


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

LR spam is just funny- leaves the enemy with very few troops and not enough firepower to kill my army.

My favorite sort of marine army to see coming at me is something like:
Pedro, 3 LRS, 2 Tacs, 1 Sternguard (dunno why people do this...)
or
Captain, 3 LRs, 2 Tacs, Termies

If either of those come at me I know Ive won (unless its anhiliation)- they just dont have the power to kill enough of my army. The termies would cause me problems, but only if I left my nuke choir at home (starting termies running with gaunts and then using more gaunts to run them off the table is just funny).
Killing LRs is hard but zoanthropes manage it eventually.. and the MCs would hit in combat given enough time and the godfex would rip them apart fast (so it'll be first target- I would probably hide it behind the dakka tyrant and guard.. and a line of gaunts, especially funny if he has no weapons to kill the gaunts on the table)- 6A on the charge means I should get a hit (plus bioplasma).. if I stun/immobalise I get 4 auto hitting attacks in the enemies assault phase (sounds nice to me).


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> if I stun/immobalise I get 4 auto hitting attacks in the enemies assault phase (sounds nice to me).


Er, I didn't think this was actually the case.
I mean, for a start Land Raider have POTMS so they can move even if stunned.
And well, I thought that the combat ended against a vehicle after the first round, although thinking about it just says that either is free to disengage.

So well, now I know another thing about Vehicles getting assaulted


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

PotMS only helps with shooting. If it's stunned a Landraider still can't move unless it has extra armour.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yup, PotMS moving a LR was 4th edition SM codex.

You cant lock a vehicle in combat but nothing says you must move away at the end of combat... so if the vehicle either cant or doesnt move then your model is still in base contact with it, since being closer the 1" is impossible unless in an assault/combat you can still hit the tank.
Does lead to some stupid ways of protecting tanks though- if someone charges a unit into my tank and immobalises it the easiest way to save the tank is to send a model/unit into the other side of the enemy's unit: they have to pile in into the locked combat, even if it means leaving contact with the tank.


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## Kaithan (Aug 20, 2009)

Wow ^^

So many reply !  (sorry for not posting for a long time, I wasn't near the net for a few days)
Anyways it seems the ideas about the tank busting are somewhat resemble eachother: every army has about 3x zoantropes that are a sure way to handle most tanks. Or at least to some degree ^^;

Boivores... I heard mixed feelings about these critters. Most people tend to not use them because of the huge scatter chance on the mines. Though in some cases they can be really lethal. I guess I have to see some fights involving some biovores to see how useful they can be.

So... Venom cannons why not a sure-proof that they can stun (like in the case of deamonic possession) they are a nice tool to bring down tanks/mechs ?


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Zoanthropes will only blow up tanks when your least expecting it- go into a fight thinking they'll be useless and they'll kill that monolith first shot (I have done exactly that )... expect them to kill something and they'll fail till you get used to them doing nothing.
They'll work eventually, and are worth having for synapse/psychic scream if nothing else.

Biovores- similarly to zoanthropes they are often either amasing or rubbish. Downside is that they give away KP like candy so can make anhiliation mission very tricky (I normally use them anyway and just table the opponent). If your playing a good opponent in an anhiliation game I suggest these guys go in reserve and just dont get fired (you waste 150-165pts but dont give the 2-5KP that they normally give away free).

VCs are useless at killing tanks (they'll do it eventually but it'll take all game to kill a cheap tank). They are good at shaking/stunning enemy tanks so are good at stopping the enemy acting normally . If you're playing against a couple of vindis then a sniperfex is perfect- all you need is to glance each vindi once each turn and you're sorted.
- these guys will never win you the game, but they can stop you losing it.


As with all things I suggest you play test and see what works for you. Proxying models is a good start and will stop you wasting money on units you dont like (I have 3 lictors and 24 stealers... they never get used except in joke lists and apoc. I wish they were more gaunts )


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Kaithan said:


> So... Venom cannons why not a sure-proof that they can stun (like in the case of deamonic possession) they are a nice tool to bring down tanks/mechs ?


They can only glance tanks, and even then can only do it reliably in the hands of a Carnifex, who is far from the most accurate shooter. Glancing hits take a really long time to destroy a vehicle, so they're not a great choice either. Unfortunately Tyranids have few truly good AT options.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Venom cannons are still the best of a bad bunch. Realistically, you have to get close to kill tanks. You won't ever get close if the enemy isn't stunned, hence the venom cannon requirement.


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## XYRYXYR (Aug 18, 2009)

The barbed strangler you get the template with moving, devourers don't need an ap value to do good, put them on a tyrant/carnifex and shoot those marines...3+ doesn't do anything if you get twelve/eight wounds on their squad of ten marines...venom cannons can do good as there are still quite a lot of open topped vehicles...as for land raiders,etc. you still got two glancing strength ten shots and one strength eight large template...


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Fex VC needs 4+ followed by 4+ to glance a LR... so it should only get a glance every other turn (barbed strangler is pretty rubbish against LRs). Not something I would be relying on


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> Fex VC needs 4+ followed by 4+ to glance a LR... so it should only get a glance every other turn (barbed strangler is pretty rubbish against LRs). Not something I would be relying on


Yeah, against LAND RAIDERS Nids have a lot of trouble with shooting.
But most other vehicles aren't too much of a pain, especially with 3 Zoanthropes with Warp Blast.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Winterous said:


> Yeah, against LAND RAIDERS Nids have a lot of trouble with shooting.
> But most other vehicles aren't too much of a pain, especially with 3 Zoanthropes with Warp Blast.


I think his point is that Nids struggle a lot to deal with the really tough vehicles because they're becoming more abundant nowadays. Land Raiders of various varieties, Leman Russ, Monoliths, Battlewagons etc are all packing super tough armor which makes it hard on the 'Nids. Tyranids can even struggle with Rhinos sometimes.


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

I'm an ex-nid player, and I know that it can be a pain in the ass to get at tanks, but one of the best units for Anti-Tanks, doesn't even come from your Heavy support list. Take a Broodlord and 11 Genestealers (With toxin sacs for the ability to Glance A14). Infiltrate them as close as you can (12" in a piece of terrain works nicely) Move, run and assault them into the tank, thats 44 S5 Rending attacks from the 'stealers and (Here is where my knowlage is a bit fussy) 6/5 attacks at S6 from the broodlord. Just by the shear number of attacks, you are going to get quite a few glancings, then even if you can't wreak it, you still have a high chance of blowing all, if not most of it's weapons off. But, usually, (as I have done it and had it done to me) you blow off all the tanks weapons, and Immobilize it twice, the second immobilize gets upgraded to a vehicle destroyed. And that usually happens in 1-2 rounds of combat. Plus, it can block the LoS from quite a few units, if you assault the side of the tank, which will give you're 'stealers a welcomed break from fire while you're demolishing the enemy's Heavy Support . Hope that helps!


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Deus Mortis said:


> Infiltrate them as close as you can (12" in a piece of terrain works nicely) Move, run and assault them into the tank, thats 44 S5 Rending attacks from the 'stealers and (Here is where my knowlage is a bit fussy) 6/5 attacks at S6 from the broodlord.


Would be nice if you could do that but its not allowed- broodlord cannot run and assault because he isnt fleet... otherwise it would be a great tactic to get first turn assaults (as it is scuttling stealers on a dawn of war game are about the only way for nids to get first turn charges... but that isnt gonna be against LRs).
- I have often been heard saying that I would pay an extra 100pts for a fleet broodlord... but as it is I cant even be bothered getting the model.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Deus Mortis said:


> I'm an ex-nid player, and I know that it can be a pain in the ass to get at tanks, but one of the best units for Anti-Tanks, doesn't even come from your Heavy support list. Take a Broodlord and 11 Genestealers (With toxin sacs for the ability to Glance A14). Infiltrate them as close as you can (12" in a piece of terrain works nicely) Move, run and assault them into the tank, thats 44 S5 Rending attacks from the 'stealers and (Here is where my knowlage is a bit fussy) 6/5 attacks at S6 from the broodlord. Just by the shear number of attacks, you are going to get quite a few glancings, then even if you can't wreak it, you still have a high chance of blowing all, if not most of it's weapons off. But, usually, (as I have done it and had it done to me) you blow off all the tanks weapons, and Immobilize it twice, the second immobilize gets upgraded to a vehicle destroyed. And that usually happens in 1-2 rounds of combat. Plus, it can block the LoS from quite a few units, if you assault the side of the tank, which will give you're 'stealers a welcomed break from fire while you're demolishing the enemy's Heavy Support . Hope that helps!


Fail.
Broodlord can't Fleet, and even then he's shit against armour 14.
On a penetration roll of 6, he gets 13-15 penetration.
So with every attack that hits, you have a 1/18 chance to glance, and a 1/18 chance to penetrate.


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

Winterous said:


> Yeah, against LAND RAIDERS Nids have a lot of trouble with shooting.
> But most other vehicles aren't too much of a pain, especially with 3 Zoanthropes with Warp Blast.


I think every body has a little trouble with the real superheavy av14 vehicles. Even tau who have a strength 10 ap1 twinlinked gun struggle a little bit. I have had 3 broadsides with targetting arrays fail to penetrate land raiders (especially when they deploy smoke launchers)

I honestly agree with Winterous. I would take 3 zoanthropes with warp blast. Its versatile and can really lay a smack down upon tanks. Its a lascannon to all intents and purposes so it will make mincemeat out of light vehicles such as rhino's and chimera's and even make a dent in a land raider if you get lucky (very lucky).


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

deathbringer said:


> I honestly agree with Winterous. I would take 3 zoanthropes with warp blast. Its versatile and can really lay a smack down upon tanks. Its a lascannon to all intents and purposes so it will make mincemeat out of light vehicles such as rhino's and chimera's and even make a dent in a land raider if you get lucky (very lucky).


Unfortunately, Zoanthropes have a horrible tendency to miss their Focused Blasts.
ALWAYS, ON, A, THREE.
They should definitely reevaluate their failure to hit the broad side of a barn.


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