# Space Marine Legion Sizes



## Rapperport

Greetings everyone,

I've had a search of the forums and indeed the internet and there doesn't seem to be a current and up to date discussion on the subject of Legion sizes.

We know the Ultramarines were the largest with 250,000, but how big were the other legions in comparison? How much do we know from the books and other fluff? What sources can we provide?

I'll edit this thread so we can see the progress made in the discussion.

I Dark Angels - 150,000 (estimated)
II
III Emperor's Children - 110,000 (60,000 post Isstvan)
IV Iron Warriors - 100,000+ (Above Average Legion size)
V White Scars - 100,000 (Average Legion size)
VI Space Wolves - 100,000 (Average Legion size)
VII Imperial Fists - 100 - 150,000 (estimated)
VIII Night Lords - 90,000 - 120,000 (pre dropsite massacre)
IX Blood Angels - 120,000 (pre Signus)
X Iron Hands - 113,000 (38,000 estimated, post dropsite massacre), 100 Capital Ships (33 estimated, post dropsite massacre)
XI
XII World Eaters - 150,000 (112,500 post Isstvan), 60+ Capital Ships
XIII Ultramarines - 250,000 (150,000 post Calth)
XIV Death Guard - 95,000 (63,000 post Isstvan), 70 Capital Ships, 210+ Escort and Assault Craft
XV Thousand Sons - 10,000 (1,000 post Prospero)
XVI Sons of Horus - 130-170,000 (70-110,000 post Isstvan), 100+ Capital Ships, 300+ Small Cruisers and Escorts
XVII Word Bearers - 140,000+ (rumoured to be close to rivalling the Ultramarines in numbers, 50,000 amassed at Calth)
XVIII Salamanders - 89,000 (7-8,000 post dropsite massacre)
XIX Raven Guard - 80,000 (3,000 post dropsite massacre)
XX Alpha Legion -100,000 (Average Legion size)


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## hailene

End of the Heresy Legions were more or less at their largest.

The Word Bearers were the second largest at ~150,000. The average Legion size sat around 90-100,000.

The Emperor's Children, Space Wolves, and Thousand Sons were noticeably smaller. The Emperor's Children and Space Wolves probably numbered from 40-60,000.

The Thousand Sons closer to 10,000.

We know the Raven Guard numbered 80,000.

I don't recall off hand any particularly large or small Legions outside these.


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## son of azurman

imagine trying to paint the whole smurf legion with those numbers.
salamanders were also smaller due to heavy losses


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## hailene

son of azurman said:


> imagine trying to paint the whole smurf legion with those numbers.
> salamanders were also smaller due to heavy losses


Salamanders took heavy loses AFTER the start of the Heresy.


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## ckcrawford

*Thoughts on Smallest Legions.*

Theres a bunch of info to munch on


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## Marcoos

ckcrawford said:


> *Thoughts on Smallest Legions.*
> 
> Theres a bunch of info to munch on


Link doesn't work for me :dunno:


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## Rems

The new Heresy supplement provides some hard figures.

In the period leading up to Isstvan III the Sons of Horus had been on a secret recruiting drive and had built themselves up to 130,000- 170,000 strong. 

Post Isstvan III, after the campaign, purging their ranks and fighting the loyalists they had 70,000 to 110,000 thousand marines, 'with considerable evidence that the latter figure is the more accurate'. 

The World Eaters were 150,000 strong in the lead up to Isstvan, in the 'higher mid levels comparative to its contemporaries'. 3/4 were at Isstvan, a full third of which were betrayed and purged. That leaves 112,500 traitors left. How many of those died fighting the loyalists is not clear. 

The Emperor's Children pre Isstvan had 110,000. A 'quartre to a third were marked for death'. The losses incurred by the traitors were then heavy. It's estimated they lost 50,000 in total (loyalist and traitor) at Isstvan, leaving 60,000. 

The Death Guard had 95,000 pre Isstvan. A third of these were killed as loyalists in the betrayal.


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## Rapperport

I think there's strong evidence for a guestimation, in recent books, that the Dark Angels and Imperial Fists were both 150,000 strong. 

The Blood Angels are confirmed as being 120,000 strong.

Not sure about any other legions.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

hailene said:


> I don't recall off hand any particularly large or small Legions outside these.


The Salamanders were noted as being a smaller Legion as well (pre-Heresy).

There are some topics in the FAQ which the OP might be interested in. Aside from that, the Forge World supplement introduces some interesting figures as _Rems_ points out.


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## Angel of Blood

Rems said:


> The new Heresy supplement provides some hard figures.


Is this from the Forge World book?


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## Rapperport

Angel of Blood said:


> Is this from the Forge World book?


Yes, I believe it is. I saw those figures on Lexicanum, sourcing the Forgeworld Heresy book.


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## Vaz

Yup.

The one thing that struck me was the comments on the Intended Size of the Legions in that book; consider how powerful the Legions already were; For all intents and purposes "cleansed" and relocated the Galaxy.

And the same for a Chapter of Marines; destroy a city, send a squad, a planet, a company, a culture, a chapter etc etc; the Death Guards significance with the Number 7 had begun already; and the intention was to have 7 Great Companies of 70,000 Marines; 490,000 Astartes. As you can see they barely made a 1/5th of that.

Hence; multiply the figures we already have, and you can see how big they might have been; 400,000 Raven Guard, 1.25m Ultramarines, 600k Blood Angels.

What possible reason could the Emp have had to enable his general to aim to go for such a huge amount of soldiers? At an average of 100,000 in each legion so far, that is 500,000 by the DG intended figure; he would have gone for 10million Astartes, when 2 million did his own Galaxy.


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## Brother Lucian

From what I remember, the Sons of Horus was one of Horus' few uncommitted forces when news broke to him of the impending arrival of Loyalist reinforcements. Leading to his ill fated gambit. The sons however got badly mauled during the Scouring when the other traitor legions fell upon them, until Abbadon shook them out of their despair and reorganized them to fight back and establish supremacy. So they would be relatively untouched post battle for Terra Id say.


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## Rapperport

One thing I would like to know people's thoughts on is the strength of the Iron Hands legion, post Isstvan. I remember reading that Ferrus Manus rushed to get there and only took his elite companies with him. Is that right?


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## Marcoos

Yes, they only took their Veterans. I haven't seen any numbers anywhere for this, but I imagine it to be around 20,000 - 30,000 warriors. Any more would seem at odds with just taking the veterans, any less would seem to few to be battlefield effective against ~300,000 Traitors.


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## Brother Lucian

Angel Exterminatus gives a good picture of what which happened to the Iron Hands legion. Starting to fragment into individual clan companies as so much of their upper tier command had been destroyed.


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## Rapperport

Does anyone know offhand how many casualties were suffered at Calth, on both side?


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## Rapperport

Updated the statistics with the Average Legion size for those that we have no concrete figures on.

I've heard a lot of theories that the Space Wolves and Salamanders were smaller than average Legions, but are there any sources for this?

Thanks for all the comments so far


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## Over Two Meters Tall!

Vaz said:


> Yup.
> What possible reason could the Emp have had to enable his general to aim to go for such a huge amount of soldiers? At an average of 100,000 in each legion so far, that is 500,000 by the DG intended figure; he would have gone for 10million Astartes, when 2 million did his own Galaxy.


Here goes my rationalization in answer to your question...

The only reason that comes to mind is the Emperor having knowledge of both the Tyranid and Necron threats and trying to factor in what it would take to fight both of them successfully. That the Emperor knew about the Void Dragon is well established fluff, so it's no great leap to say he also understood that the Necrons were buried out there in the galaxy and would one day awake.

In Horus Rising there's also the planet where we meet the Emperor's Children, who have to fight off what sure sounds like a Nid colony that lost their C&C member to the Interex some time ago. It also sounds like Ciphias Cain goes to an ice world that had an entire Hive Mind buried beneath the ice for over 7,000 years. I'm making both these points to say it's likely the Emperor had knowledge of, or suspected, that the Milky Way would play smorgasboard to an alien eating machine one day.

The Great Crusade didn't seem to have a lot of problems whipping up on the remnants of the Eldar, the Orks, and what minor xenos species were out there while reuniting the lost human planets. On the other hand, the Nids or the Necrons, by themselves much less at the same time, pose threats that could take down the entire Imperium. If I was the Emperor, I'd want to load for the bears coming after the GC.


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## Djinn24

By time the second founding happened Sallies only had enough to make a single chapter so 1k ish.


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## Vaz

SW are confirmed by several authors (ADB who used to visit the site included) that tge SW were one of the smallest. I cannot remember off hand how many were attributed to them or if it is listed in a book. As to how big they are; well lets just say that the SW told Guilliman to fuck off with his codex astartes; keeping his 13 Great Companies and not making them into the current pattern of cherry picking/requisitioning aid from other companies. Considering Strike Forces are around 150 marines in 40k, a guesstimate places the SW at around 1800; if they have kept a rougly equal number since the Heresy (and thanks to losing the 13th coy, they've lost another "150", and thanks to Angron, Magnus and all other sorts of McNasties rolling around the galaxy, why should they?); they would have around 2000 post Heresy, but I'd point towards a larger figure; perhaps 4-6000 Immediately post Heresy.

Salamanders; they only had enough for 7 companies after the Heresy. 

As for 1k Sons; where is it stated they only had 10k?


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## Rapperport

Does it not say in a Thousand Sons book, that they were around 10,000?

It's been a while since I read it though...


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## Angel of Blood

I thought at the end of Thousand Sons it said something along with lines of 'barely a thousand of their number were left' or something of that ilk. Not got it to hand to check.


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## hailene

We know that they were roughly 10,000. During the attack on Prospero...

"At a conserative estimate, Ahriman guess that just over a thousand warriors had escaped the attack of the Wulfen.

'A tenth of the Legion,', he said"

So the Thousand Sons numbered around 10,000 before the assault on Prospero. Probably more, since it was a conservative estimate AND he said it was over. Though Ahriman may have been rounding. I'd guess 9250-12,000 marines.


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## Rems

Wasn't a Thousand Sons' written before the average legion size became 100,000? I remember ADB mentioning the new standard but i can't remember when he said it was implemented.


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## Vaz

Well, ATS was Book 12, DL was book 18; so between the two there must have been some change. Bearing in mind that the books in between included an Anthology, a book detailing the role of the Assassins, and a book detailing Terra; while the other books, (TFH and PB) detailed a specific legion; and IIRC, it states in TFH that there were 250K Ultras and 150K WB's.

Before then, I don't think that there were actual figures attributed to the Legions other than in non-numerical terms. Only one i can remember off my head was the EC's being reduced to 200 Astartes before meeting Fulgrim, and eventually getting 30 Lord Commanders (although McNob managed to change that in "Fulgrim" once more).


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## hailene

Vaz said:


> Well, ATS was Book 12, DL was book 18; so between the two there must have been some change. Bearing in mind that the books in between included an Anthology, a book detailing the role of the Assassins, and a book detailing Terra; while the other books, (TFH and PB) detailed a specific legion; and IIRC, it states in TFH that there were 250K Ultras and 150K WB's.


I did a quick scan through KnF, and I didn't see any specifics about the total WB numbers. I think it was an outside source--ADB?--that said the WBs were up to 150,000 when the Battle of Calth occurred. Though I myself haven't sen the source, and I may be repeating someone else's conjecture. 



Vaz said:


> Before then, I don't think that there were actual figures attributed to the Legions other than in non-numerical terms. Only one i can remember off my head was the EC's being reduced to 200 Astartes before meeting Fulgrim, and eventually getting 30 Lord Commanders (although McNob managed to change that in "Fulgrim" once more).


I'm shocked that the EC could drop down to such a low number. Could you provide the source?

I don't think they could reach up to 60-70,000 marines in 150 years from just 200. Not with geneseed limitations and combat losses.


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## Angel of Blood

The Word Bearers are stated as being 150,000 strong at the start of _The First Heretic_, their numbers no doubt having vastly increased between the fifty years of the events on Monarchia and the start of the Heresy.


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## hailene

I looked through _The First Heretic_ and I can't find the citation. Could you give me the page number?

I can only find the hundred-thousand number reference at the Monarchia incident. I can't find any updated numbers throughout the book.


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## Marcoos

I'm pretty sure it's 100,000 at Monarchia, and then the Worb Bearers started to rapidly increase numbers knowing the Heresy they were planning, and therefore the requirement they would have for troops.


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## Angel of Blood

Hmmm, really need all my books, won't be seeing them till January though. So couldn't tell you, I'm certain it's mentioned in there somewhere though.

EDIT: Here's something from Dan Abnett, though this is at the onset of the Heresy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWxl0TnkeYA&feature=youtu.be&t=8m33s


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## hailene

Angel of Blood said:


> Hmmm, really need all my books, won't be seeing them till January though. So couldn't tell you, I'm certain it's mentioned in there somewhere though.


I couldn't find it in my paper back version. I, uh, appropriated a digital copy and searched for "fifty". Nothing about 150,000 legionaries came up. 50 didn't come up with anything. I tried "hundred thousand" and no dice there either.


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## Boc

hailene said:


> I'm shocked that the EC could drop down to such a low number. Could you provide the source?
> 
> I don't think they could reach up to 60-70,000 marines in 150 years from just 200. Not with geneseed limitations and combat losses.


Page 104 of FW's Horus Heresy Book I: Betrayal.

Excerpt (from when they found Fulgrim):


> Numbering only two hundred, they arrayed before him. They were so few that each of them bore a banner of a Company that had either perished, or now numbered only a handful of warriors.


Prior to finding Fulgrim, a vast shipment of EC gene seed being shipped to Luna was destroyed by possible rebel elements still on the moon. Following that, a viral blight had infected the gene vaults on Terra and obliterated the EC's gene seed stocks. They were unable to create more until Fulgrim was discovered, and literally had none left with which to create new recruits.

The Emperor also allowed the EC's to recruit from several worlds rather than just Chemos, and the "noble houses" left on Terra gave heavily of their children in order to resupply the ECs with Legionnaires. 

The same book (pg 109) states that the strength at the initiation of the Heresy was ~110,000 Marines, of which around 1/3 died on Isstvan III.


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## hailene

Fascinating. 

I did some number crunching, and it does seem possible that they'd be able to reach those numbers in ~150 years from 200 marines.

That's awfully shocking. That's even worse than the Thousand Sons before they found Magnus.


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## Rapperport

Just wondering if there's been any new information in any of the recent books?


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## Rapperport

Edited the Salamanders to 40,000+, legion size. Sourced from Vulkan Lives. The wording of it in the book makes it seem like the sum total of the loyalists at Isstvan V. But since we know for sure that there were 80,000 Raven guard, this can't be the case. Plus the book talks of the Salamanders nearly being destroyed before they found Vulkan. So the legion would be on the small side.


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## Rapperport

I'm reading through Horus Heresy Book 2: Massacre, at the moment. Have updated the Iron Hands legion size and will make further updates as I get through it.

edit. Night Lords legion size.

edit. Salamanders legion size.

edit. Word Bearers legion size.


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## hailene

Sources for the Night Lords vary. Apparently they had anywhere between 90,000-120,000 men.

Salamanders were around 89,000 (which is noted to be amongst the smallest of all the Legions).

The Word Bearers go crazy in the second book. It states that the original number of ~140,000 at Istvaan V is total bunk. The numbers apparently are much higher. Some dare say as high as the Ultramarines.

I would guess no less than 180,000 for the Word Bearers with anything under 275,000 as possible (though it's more likely they're in the 180,000-225,000 range). Also noteworthy is that the WBs may have also possessed the largest, most powerful fleet of all the Legions, edging out the Imperial Fists.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

hailene said:


> The Word Bearers go crazy in the second book. It states that the original number of ~140,000 at Istvaan V is total bunk. The numbers apparently are much higher. Some dare say as high as the Ultramarines.
> 
> I would guess no less than 180,000 for the Word Bearers with anything under 275,000 as possible (though it's more likely they're in the 180,000-225,000 range). Also noteworthy is that the WBs may have also possessed the largest, most powerful fleet of all the Legions, edging out the Imperial Fists.


Given that they had roughly 40 years to prepare those numbers seem reasonable.


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## hailene

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Given that they had roughly 40 years to prepare those numbers seem reasonable.


Yeah. I mean the EC go from ~200 to 110,000 in, what, 140 years? When was Fulgrim discovered again? It was fairly early on.

Still, a crazy revelation. They were already the second largest at 150,000. Now we have potentially 200k+? Craziness.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

hailene said:


> Still, a crazy revelation. They were already the second largest at 150,000. Now we have potentially 200k+? Craziness.


Even more so when you consider the Word Bearers conquered more worlds than even the Luna Wolves in the last few decades of the Great Crusade - likely meaning their casualty rates would have been consistently high.


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## Rapperport

And didn't the Word Bearers purge the Terrans during that time too?


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## Malus Darkblade

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Even more so when you consider the Word Bearers conquered more worlds than even the Luna Wolves in the last few decades of the Great Crusade - likely meaning their casualty rates would have been consistently high.



Makes you wonder what they did differently than the other legions to conquer so much, so fast.


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## Vaz

Considering how quick the Legions could pacify a planet or system in mass assaults it was possibly due to the fact that they could split up much further, while they were able to get more charismatic planetary leaders within their ranks with which to provode the infrastructure following invasion meaning less need to "oversee".

Also, they possibly had extra help from Daemonic forces to increase their Thralldom or mind control on populace, the routines established aiding them even after Astartes have left.


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## Rapperport

Interesting points from everyone! So thanks for that 

I'm expanding the information for the legions to include fleet sizes. I've edited the legions that have been mentioned in the Horus Heresy forgeworld books and would appreciate any information anyone else might have


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## Ddraig Cymry

Impressive! Very interesting to see these number put together. Also gives me motivation to buy more Night Lords!


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## Rapperport

Thanks, Ddraig  With the Horus Heresy books and especially the Forgeworld books, we're finally getting accurate numbers for a lot of the legions too


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## hailene

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Even more so when you consider the Word Bearers conquered more worlds than even the Luna Wolves in the last few decades of the Great Crusade - likely meaning their casualty rates would have been consistently high.


Probably incredibly so. _Massacre_ states that they began to recruit from _every_ world they conquered. That is a huge recruitment base to draw upon!



Malus Darkblade said:


> Makes you wonder what they did differently than the other legions to conquer so much, so fast.


A couple ideas: They were probably willing to spend men like no tomorrow to conquer as much territory as they could. Remember, they weren't taking worlds for the Emperor anymore, but rather setting up a base of power for the eventual civil war. The more planets they could subvert ahead of time, the better off they would be.

A maybe the Chaos gods were helping them find worlds or navigate their fleets to new worlds. We know that during the war Chaos helped the Traitors and hindered the Loyalists, so it's reasonable to believe that the Chaos gods would help the WBs before the heresy as well.



Vaz said:


> Considering how quick the Legions could pacify a planet or system in mass assaults it was possibly due to the fact that they could split up much further


Probably not. _Massacre_ says the Word Bearers favored grouping their men together and launching overwhelming assaults.


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## Phoebus

I think *Hailene* hit on a very important point when he brought up navigation. Interstellar travel is always described as an uncertain and perilous proposition, but that's a function of the Warp. If the Ruinous Powers "paved the roads" for their favorite Legion, the Word Bearers would be able to get from conquest to conquest in minimal time.

Something else: 'The First Heretic' shows the Word Bearers annihilating the first world they are to bring under Compliance after Lorgar has settled on his path. Given the technology available to the expeditionary fleets, turning a planet into a wasteland and/or basically committing genocide is an easier proposition than conquering it and imposing a stable government.

Would the Word Bearers need a ton of planets to reach their great numbers? There's obviously a degree of "author's prerogative" at play when the recruitment numbers come into play, but even a former Death World like Caliban was able to pump out 4,000+ Space Marines every two years under an optimal program. This means that the Word Bearers wouldn't have needed a huge number of functioning conquered planets to bulk up their numbers. If 'Massacre' says that's what happened, though, then that's well and good.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Another interesting point is that according to Imperial records (presumably pre-Heresy) the Word Bearers officially held "garrison oversight and tithing rights" on at least 57 worlds (including Colchis).


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## PlayingWithHammers

Even though I agree with the assessments made of Crusade era legion sizes and numbers of fleets, I think GW have under-estimated the numbers since the beginning. 

300,000,000,000 potential star systems in the galaxy is a staggeringly large number, not just big, but bloody hell i have a headache trying to visualise it big.

Two million Space Marines just get swallowed up in the vast expanses of space. That's one space marine conquering 150,000 star systems each, at the rate of 1 per day for 410 years, and that's with zero travel time. 

I know that the Crusade didn't cover the entire galaxy (world's are still being conquered in 40k), even a tenth of it would mean 15,000 star systems per marine.


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## Vaz

hailene said:


> Probably not. _Massacre_ says the Word Bearers favored grouping their men together and launching overwhelming assaults.


That's the reasonable battle tactic; but that's a tactic, as opposed to strategy. Compare the Viking "strategy" to "tactics"; in battle, they formed shield walls or they formed "Boar's Tusks", which worked like a lance through armour. Yet they ranged far and wide, ending up in the Greek court as mercenary guards and North America and the Azores.

I'll have to dig out the exact quote, however, I can't quite see it; is there a page number?


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## hailene

PlayingWithHammers said:


> 300,000,000,000 potential star systems in the galaxy is a staggeringly large number, not just big, but bloody hell i have a headache trying to visualise it big.


The Imperium of man is not interested in conquering every system. Just ones of note and/or ones with alien presences. 

Though apparently the Great Crusade didn't kill every alien it ran across. I was re-reading _Fulgrim_ last night and there was talk of making the Laerans into a "protectorate" since the war was estimated too costly and too time consuming to be worthwhile.

Most solar systems have nothing of note and so are left empty and ignored.



Vaz said:


> I'll have to dig out the exact quote, however, I can't quite see it; is there a page number?


No problem. Page 142. Second and third paragraphs.


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## Rapperport

It wasn't just the Space Marines conquering the galaxy either. They just spearheaded the Great Crusade. You musn't forget the billions of ordinary human soldiers.


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## Karthak

Rapperport said:


> It wasn't just the Space Marines conquering the galaxy either. They just spearheaded the Great Crusade. You musn't forget the billions of ordinary human soldiers.


Indeed. There were plenty of Expeditionary Fleets with no Astartes presence at all.


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## emporershand89

PlayingWithHammers said:


> Two million Space Marines just get swallowed up in the vast expanses of space. That's one space marine conquering 150,000 star systems each, at the rate of 1 per day for 410 years, and that's with zero travel time.


This is true, but keep in mind though that not all those 300 billion are inhabitable. Therefore if you cut down the amount of systems that can be colonized or inhabited by technological/natural means were only really looking at Millions of systems; if that at all. 

Plus keep in mind all the systems the Imperium never covered........imagine an inter-galaxy war if you will. It is an entertaining thought, but unrealistic even for our modern concept of science and the world around us.


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## Phoebus

Indeed. It's safe to assume that the Imperium had means by which to detect inhabitable worlds from interstellar distances. This would have obviously reduced the number of systems they needed to visit.

A number of sources also make mention of Imperial space being surrounded by regions of "wild space", which is generally a "no-man's land".


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## PlayingWithHammers

Yes, not all 300bn are in the Imperium, nor covered in the Great Crusade, i.e Macharius and Saint Sabbat brought areas under control far nearer 40k than 30k.

As i mentioned, even 10% of the galaxy (an unrealistic figure seeing the maps in Heresy books cross from one side of the galaxy to the other) being covered the Great Crusade leaves 15,000 star systems per marine. 

Assuming explorator fleets and survey fleets (often mentioned in lore) rule out another 90%, that's 1,500 per marine, but keep in mind that's still 3 billion star systems that need to be surveyed.

Assuming the Imperial Army, Rogue Trader and Mechanicum fleets conquer another 90% that leaves 300 million star systems conquered by Space Marines.

Cut down the figures any more to fit a few thousand Marine led expedition fleets and the impact of the legions is 0.01% of the Great Crusade, which leaves them fairly inconsequential and not the pivotal and essential forces they are.

The thing is, mankind breeds like rats, and the size of the Imperium, mankind conquered space, with hive planets and what have you allows for huge numbers so theoretically, within a few generations you could breed legion sizes of 1 million + each no problems. 

2 million marines on a galactic scale is minuscule, hell even on a scale comparable to today its nothing, 2 million is roughly one of Hitlers Army Groups, destroyed and disappeared in a few weeks in World War Two on the Eastern Front.


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## Karthak

Hundreds of millions of star systems? Let's not get carried away here. Hasn't the Imperium always consisted of "only" one million worlds?


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## Rapperport

Karthak said:


> Hundreds of millions of star systems? Let's not get carried away here. Hasn't the Imperium always consisted of "only" one million worlds?


Exactly what I thought. The Imperium may span the entire galaxy, but it consists of only 1 million inhabited systems in the galaxy. That's half a system per space marine 

Anyhow, this thread has just been posted http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=130449

So can we bring the discussion back on topic now please?


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## Rapperport

I'm having problems editing my first post. Is anyone else having problems editing today? I will be updating Legion sizes from the third Horus Heresy book today


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## Rapperport

Imperial Fists, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion added. Plus a minor edit of Raven Guard. The only legions with no figures at all yet, are the White Scars and the Space Wolves.



Rapperport said:


> I Dark Angels - 150,000 (estimated)
> II
> III Emperor's Children - 110,000 (60,000 post Isstvan)
> IV Iron Warriors - 150 - 180,000 (pre dropsite massacre), 100+ Capital Ships
> V White Scars - 100,000 (Average Legion size)
> VI Space Wolves - 100,000 (Average Legion size)
> VII Imperial Fists - 98,356 (pre Phall), 1,500 Ships (pre Phall) highest proportion of capital ships
> VIII Night Lords - 90,000 - 120,000 (pre dropsite massacre)
> IX Blood Angels - 120,000 (pre Signus)
> X Iron Hands - 113,000 (38,000 estimated, post dropsite massacre), 100 Capital Ships (33 estimated, post dropsite massacre)
> XI
> XII World Eaters - 150,000 (112,500 post Isstvan), 60+ Capital Ships
> XIII Ultramarines - 250,000 (150,000 post Calth)
> XIV Death Guard - 95,000 (63,000 post Isstvan), 70 Capital Ships, 210+ Escort and Assault Craft
> XV Thousand Sons - 10,000 (1,000 post Prospero)
> XVI Sons of Horus - 130-170,000 (70-110,000 post Isstvan), 100+ Capital Ships, 300+ Small Cruisers and Escorts
> XVII Word Bearers - 140,000+ (rumoured to be close to rivalling the Ultramarines in numbers, 50,000 amassed at Calth)
> XVIII Salamanders - 89,000 (7-8,000 post dropsite massacre)
> XIX Raven Guard - 80,000 (4,000 post dropsite massacre)
> XX Alpha Legion - 90-180,000 (120-130,000, best estimate)


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Rapperport said:


> I'm having problems editing my first post. Is anyone else having problems editing today? I will be updating Legion sizes from the third Horus Heresy book today


You can't edit your posts after a set time-limit.


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## Rapperport

Fair enough  Thankyou, Child-of-the-Emperor.


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## Lux

Were the word bearers actually close to the 250k of the ultramarines? Did they just hide these new recruits?


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## Ecumene

Forge World Horus Heresy Books are consistently suggesting that First Legion is one of the largest. It could be rivaling, or even exceeding, numbers of 4th. Also, Temporaferrox infestation suppression era Iron Warriors could even more larger than Drop Site Massacre era size(estimated 150,000~180,000 and likely much closer to latter). Iron Warriors lost approximately a fifth of their whole Legion strengthㅡalthough like most other traitor Legions, they accelerated its indoctrination and recruiting program. Then again, it could be counterbalanced by the fact considerable portion of 4th Legion strength are scattered across Galaxy to garrison, expedition and sub-deployment.


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## Lux

This is fascinating, tell me more regarding the sizes of the legions. I love warhammer 40k knowledge, could you tell me all the updated legion sizes as of present day?

Did the Word Bearers have the largest fleet, and was it the best fleet among the primarchs (in terms of capital ships, and those omega class ships)?

Were the Alpha Legion really close to 200k? 

Also who or what was the Ghost Legion, and were they responsible for the Emperor's Children Gene Stock disaster?


----------



## Ecumene

Lux said:


> This is fascinating, tell me more regarding the sizes of the legions. I love warhammer 40k knowledge, could you tell me all the updated legion sizes as of present day?
> 
> Did the Word Bearers have the largest fleet, and was it the best fleet among the primarchs (in terms of capital ships, and those omega class ships)?
> 
> Were the Alpha Legion really close to 200k?
> 
> Also who or what was the Ghost Legion, and were they responsible for the Emperor's Children Gene Stock disaster?


1. It is implied in Horus Heresy Books, but not determined or definite fact. And in terms of both Capital Ships quantity and quality, Imperial Fists are the unrivaled best. The 7th are peerless ship-borne Legion and _the_ specialist of the void warfare and subjugation of void-faring civilizations. However it is almost certain that 17th Legion have more ships than even Ultramarines onset of age of darkness. 

2. Ghost Legion is informal cognomen of Alpha Legion, before joining of their Primarch and subsequent christening-and 20th Legion have multifarious cognomens _in spades_. And they are most certainly not responsible of Emperor's Children Gene Stock disaster. If anything, one of primary reasons of their creation is the prevention of these kinds of infiltration, sabotage and terrorism and ensuring them never occur again.


----------



## hailene

Ecumene said:


> And in terms of both Capital Ships quantity and quality, Imperial Fists are the unrivaled best


Not sure if unrivaled is the word I'd use. Maybe arguably? 

In _Massacre_ it says that Lorgar incrased the Word Bearer's fleet "possibily to levels which exceeded that of the Imperial Fists".

Then again in _Extermination_, it says that the "Imperial fists had over 1,500 warships under *their direct command*, and _many more bonded by oath and fealty_. *This* naval might was the greatest of any of the Legiones Astartes..."

Some bold and italics mine for emphasis.

Now how can these two seemingly contradictory statements work together? A couple ways, I see.

1. The Word Bearers _may_ have exceeded the Imperial Fists...which means they may not. Easiest way to explain is that the Word Bearers did not in fact beat out the Imperial Fists. Simple, but "meh" in my opinion.

2. The Word Bearer's fleet does beat out the Imperial Fists' fleet...but does not beat out the Imperial Fists' fleet AND the ships "bonded by oath and fealty". 

I think the second option makes more sense, given the wording of page 64 of _Extermination_. I will admit there's still enough room for option 1 to be correct, so your mileage may vary.

It's difficult to say unrivaled, though.


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## Beaviz81

Remember the Imperial Fists are the most diplomatic and humble of any Space Marines, so i agree with you hailene.


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## Lux

So just to clarify, did the Word Bearers equal or surpass 250,000 legionaires at any time during the heresy? Because the books say they swelled to rival the ultramarines in numbers, and their fleet seems to be one of the largest during the heresy.


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## hailene

Lux said:


> did the Word Bearers equal or surpass 250,000 legionaires at any time during the heresy?


At this time, we're not sure. It's speculated, though.

I'd pitch the Word Bearers numbers at somewhere between 200k-275k to be honest.


----------



## Ecumene

hailene said:


> Not sure if unrivaled is the word I'd use. Maybe arguably?
> 
> In _Massacre_ it says that Lorgar incrased the Word Bearer's fleet "possibily to levels which exceeded that of the Imperial Fists".
> 
> Then again in _Extermination_, it says that the "Imperial fists had over 1,500 warships under *their direct command*, and _many more bonded by oath and fealty_. *This* naval might was the greatest of any of the Legiones Astartes..."
> 
> Some bold and italics mine for emphasis.
> 
> Now how can these two seemingly contradictory statements work together? A couple ways, I see.
> 
> 1. The Word Bearers _may_ have exceeded the Imperial Fists...which means they may not. Easiest way to explain is that the Word Bearers did not in fact beat out the Imperial Fists. Simple, but "meh" in my opinion.
> 
> 2. The Word Bearer's fleet does beat out the Imperial Fists' fleet...but does not beat out the Imperial Fists' fleet AND the ships "bonded by oath and fealty".
> 
> I think the second option makes more sense, given the wording of page 64 of _Extermination_. I will admit there's still enough room for option 1 to be correct, so your mileage may vary.
> 
> It's difficult to say unrivaled, though.


No, as you cited, I already unambiguously said singularly 'in terms of the _Capital Ship_', Imperial Fists are the best. Do you remember the reference of Imperial Fists have *the highest portion of CS* than any other Legion, and many of them are also technologically sophisticated and qualitatively superior? Thus I think if hypothesis 1 is true, it is safe to say Imperial Fists are still have the largest CS tonnage and concentration. 

But yes, I will admit, looking back my description, it seems word 'unrivaled' is a little...stretched, overly assertive.


----------



## hailene

Ecumene said:


> 'in terms of the Capital Ship', Imperial Fists are the best.


I'm dubious if they win in terms of quality.

Recall the kingships of the _Abyss_ class the Word Bearers had? They had three of them, and two of them alone were able to turn a hopeless battle at Armatura, itself one of the most fortified worlds in the Five Hundred Worlds, to a relatively easy battle.

They completely outclass the Gloriana-class ships used as Legion flagships.



Ecumene said:


> o you remember the reference of Imperial Fists have the highest portion of CS than any other Legion, and many of them are also technologically sophisticated and qualitatively superior?


I don't, actually. Could you cite them for me, please?


----------



## Ecumene

hailene said:


> I'm dubious if they win in terms of quality.
> 
> Recall the kingships of the _Abyss_ class the Word Bearers had? They had three of them, and two of them alone were able to turn a hopeless battle at Armatura, itself one of the most fortified worlds in the Five Hundred Worlds, to a relatively easy battle.
> 
> They completely outclass the Gloriana-class ships used as Legion flagships.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't, actually. Could you cite them for me, please?





hailene said:


> I'm dubious if they win in terms of quality.
> 
> Recall the kingships of the _Abyss_ class the Word Bearers had? They had three of them, and two of them alone were able to turn a hopeless battle at Armatura, itself one of the most fortified worlds in the Five Hundred Worlds, to a relatively easy battle.
> 
> They completely outclass the Gloriana-class ships used as Legion flagships.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't, actually. Could you cite them for me, please?






Sure. According to Horus Heresy Book 3 _Extermination_ p.62;

_The space fleet and warships of the Imperial Fists were the greatest of the age_. While the Phalanx may be the greatest warship ever built, there were other ships, both great and small, whose renown reaches down through annals of history even to this day.

And ibid. P.64;

At the times of Horus Heresy, the Imperial Fists had over 1,500 warships under their direct command, and many more bonded by oaths and fealty. This naval might war the greatest of any of the Legiones Astartes, _and was further enhanced by the fact that many of the ships are the largest of Imperium._ Even Sons of Horus and Ultramarines could not rival such strength alone.

And finally ibid. p. 50., what I view as the conclusive factor of this issue;

In the case of the fleet of the Imperial Fists, it had rightly been known before the Horus Heresy as both the strongest and also the most diverse in terms and class and pattern of all the Legiones Astartes fleets. It also had _advantages of being maintained and reinforced at the heart of the Imperium, and therefore was masterfully provided for and featured many of the most powerful patterns of weaponry and equipment available_, including a stockpile of deadly vortex-warhead torpedoes and directly assigned from the protected reserves of Terra and issued at authority of the Sigilite...
...selected specifically to operate long range and at speed, with the strong strategic possibility of having to carry out hunter-killer operations to run down a fleeing enemy, _was composed of many of the Imperium's finest and fastest warships_. This war, particularly in the case of mid-tier warships, featured a proportionally high number of fast cruiser and battle cruiser patterns compared to the Iron Warriors fleet; _many of which were purpose built for void combat superiority and armed predominately with long range ship-to-ship lance batteries in preference of standard multi-purpose armaments_.



Of course, Battle Fleet of Phall is not equivalence of whole of the Imperial Fists fleet divisions, but it sufficiently represents overall specific, strategic inclination, bias, propensity and predisposition of Imperial Fist fleet strength in totality. 

And sure, Word Bearers have three Kingships. But they have only three of Abyss-class battleships and all of them are irreplaceable and and I greatly doubt more than three of Abyss-class manufactured during the whole of Heresy era. An Abyss-class Battleship was a triumvirate of unique Imperial Battleships of special configuration secretly constructed for the Word Bearers Legion by a faction of the Mechanicum in the days just before the outbreak of the Horus Heresy in the early 31st Millennium, after all. 

Thus yes, I consider Abyss class Kingships should be treated as a sort of unique superweapon and one-time strategic assets like modern nuclear weapons, NOT directly connected with the overall quality of military force. 

For example, North Korea has nukes, maybe several. And South Korea does not have nukes of their own, not even a single tactical ones. But we are certainly not think SK are weaker than Nk. Moreover, North Korea mobilize at least four million of army if it is pressed. But at the same circumstance, South Korea could only mobilize approximately a million, even though they also maintain a very large(about 600,000) standing army. 

But if another Korea war outbreaks, we all-well-know the predestined outcome. It is so obvious, simply unquestionable who will be victor ultimately. Even without aid of America, SK will won without doubt. Sure, they also might be severely mauled, devastated and therefore it is highly feasible that NK might be annexed by the likes of China after second Korea War. But they would still win, even if NK consume their whole reserves of nukes and several of them successfully strike military strategy points, key positions and population centers, thus neutralize significant portion of SK's prominent assets. 

It is not because SK have nukes, nor they have superior quantity. It is solely because they have also large army and comparable bulks of armored units, tanks and aircrafts, and hold tremendous superiority of quality virtually every military, economic, logistic, tactical and strategic aspects. 

I apprise this postulate could be applied equally to Imperial Fists-Word Bearers comparison. Imperial Fists will fight a hard battle against sheer scale-comparable to themselves-of the World Bearers fleet and tremendous firepower of colossal Abyss class vassal-superweapons, no doubt, but regardless this hardship, IF fleet eventually win against the WS fleet almost certainly; it is my opinion.


----------



## Lux

The Word Bearers had 3 abyss class ships? I thought they had only one, the one that was Lorgar's flagship during the "Betrayal" book. What were the other two abyss class ships that they had? I know Lorgar gave his old flagship the Fidelitus Lex to his most favored son, that wasn't an abyss class ship was it?

If the Word Bearers had around 270k astartes, how many of them were used for the war on the Ultramarines? Where the remainder of their forces go?

Did the Word Bearers have any astartes that remained loyal to the Emperor, or were the Word Bearers unique in that they were the only legion where none of the marines sided with the Emperor?

Did any of the Nightlords side with the Emperor during the Horus Heresy? What happened to the Terran NightLords, were they corrupted?


----------



## Nacho libre

Lux said:


> The Word Bearers had 3 abyss class ships? I thought they had only one, the one that was Lorgar's flagship during the "Betrayal" book. What were the other two abyss class ships that they had? I know Lorgar gave his old flagship the Fidelitus Lex to his most favored son, that wasn't an abyss class ship was it?
> 
> If the Word Bearers had around 270k astartes, how many of them were used for the war on the Ultramarines? Where the remainder of their forces go?
> 
> Did the Word Bearers have any astartes that remained loyal to the Emperor, or were the Word Bearers unique in that they were the only legion where none of the marines sided with the Emperor?
> 
> Did any of the Nightlords side with the Emperor during the Horus Heresy? What happened to the Terran NightLords, were they corrupted?


thay had loyalists, but they were killed way before the heresy was actually official.


----------



## hailene

Ecumene said:


> Sure


Sorry to say, but none of those say the Imperial Fists had the best capital ships. 

Several very good ones, amongst the best, but nothing that says, on the whole, they had the best capital ships.



Ecumene said:


> I apprise this postulate could be applied equally to Imperial Fists-Word Bearers comparison. I


I think you're selling the Word Bearers short.

They had 50 years to prepare for the Heresy. They also notably had some serious pacts with the higher ups of the Mechanicus. It makes sense that they'd augment the rest of their fleet, as the Forgeworld book _Massacre_ so states.

In addition, we know that in the Heresy novel _Mechanicus_, even before the Heresy, the forces known to be unshakeable in their loyalty to the Emperor, had their war materiel cut short. It would make sense that the Imperial Fists would likewise be starved (though to a lesser degree, given their proximity to Mars).

45-50 years is a long time for Lorgar to make sure the dice fell in the right places.



Lux said:


> The Word Bearers had 3 abyss class ships? I


Three. We see one in _Battle for the Abyss_ and two in _Betrayer_. Should be noted only one of them went to Angron's homeworld.

The names of the _Abyss_ class vessels are _Furious Abyss_, _Blessed Lady_, and _Trisagion_.



Lux said:


> how many of them were used for the war on the Ultramarines?


Most of them, probably. Maybe all.

At least 50,000 at Calth (of which few escaped).

The rest probably partying through the rest of the Five Hundred Worlds.



Lux said:


> Did the Word Bearers have any astartes that remained loyal to the Emperor


Yes. They were purged in the 50 years leading up to the Heresy. The Terrans (the old Iconclasts, as they were called before they were christned the Word Bearers) found themselves in particularly nasty battlefields. 



Lux said:


> Did any of the Nightlords side with the Emperor during the Horus Heresy?


No idea. I haven't heard of one to date...which doesn't mean we won't see one in the future.



Lux said:


> What happened to the Terran NightLords, were they corrupted?


From the writings of ADB and Forgeworld, seems they got along fine with Night Haunter.


----------



## Ecumene

hailene said:


> Sorry to say, but none of those say the Imperial Fists had the best capital ships.
> 
> Several very good ones, amongst the best, but nothing that says, on the whole, they had the best capital ships.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're selling the Word Bearers short.
> 
> They had 50 years to prepare for the Heresy. They also notably had some serious pacts with the higher ups of the Mechanicus. It makes sense that they'd augment the rest of their fleet, as the Forgeworld book _Massacre_ so states.
> 
> In addition, we know that in the Heresy novel _Mechanicus_, even before the Heresy, the forces known to be unshakeable in their loyalty to the Emperor, had their war materiel cut short. It would make sense that the Imperial Fists would likewise be starved (though to a lesser degree, given their proximity to Mars).
> 
> 45-50 years is a long time for Lorgar to make sure the dice fell in the right places.


In contrast, I think you are underestimating strength of Imperial Fists. They always maintain the largest and strongest fleet force during whole of Crusade era. They have many of the best ships could be produced Mars and various other celebrated Forge Worlds. And they have large number of warships tied by 'oath and fealty'. Even though World Bearers prepared half a century, they still could not reach the number of Ultramarine('rivaled' not means 'equal', and according to both HH series and Forge World Books, certainly WB have less Legionaries than Ultras in the heresy era). Likewise, I consider they still could not reach fleet strength of Imperial Fists. 

Let's say supply of equipment and war materiel. It is true that according to HH novel _Mechanicum_, the forces known to be utterly loyal to Emperor are curtailed or cut short their supply of war material, but I consider it merely apply on Imperial Army, not the extent of Legiones Astartes. 

And it seems forces are known to vaunt unshakable loyalty to Emperor and Imperium-such as Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, Ultramarines and Raven Guard-are not curtail or cut short their supply of war material, and if so, it is virtually meaningless contraction to them-we know Dark Angels, Ultramarines and Raven Guard have their own exclusive (especially in case of Ultramarines and Raven Guard, the former are ruling and maintaining Five Hundred Worlds and Macragge itself is an exuberant Forge World, while latter almost entirely depend their supply of war material on Tech Guild of Kiavahr, and many of them are produced solely by Tech Guild observing exact custom order from 19th Legion), Forge Worlds, Imperial Fists are garrisoning and protecting Sol System, and in case of Blood Angels and Space Wolves, respectably to Fear to Tread and Prospero Burn, it seems they don't suffer any notable shortage of war material or resourcesㅡif anything, they have various resources _in spades_ as any other Legions. Indeed, only explicit, notable example of discriminating distribution of war material is Sicaran battle tank, and I doubt Iron Hands and Ultramarine have any shortage of that machineㅡthey both are primary developers of Sicaran tank, after all. 

And let's see other Loyalists LegionsㅡIron Hands are maintaining extremely strong connection with Mechanicum, only rivaled by Iron Warrior' affiliation with Red Planet, and curtail their supply to 10th would incur immediate suspicion, or outright conflict. And Salamander are known to autarkic most of their own war martial. Thus we only left White Scars, and in cases of 5th Legion, they are not involved initial stage of heresy any way and considered sort of 'unpredictable neutral element' by both side.


p.s And I don't think Lorgar purged most of Terran-born, at least before commencement of battle of Calth. Even before castigation of Monarchia, almost all of Terran-born Word Bearers are converted by Lorgar. He invested almost half of century secretly converting even the most die-hard Iconocalst old guards to fanatical Emperor-believers. And subsequent (relatively small) purge, virtually all of the loyalists in WB are wiped out. Before the Battle of Calth Word Bearers still have many Terran Legionaries and they are mostly purged at the Calth(because Lorgar could not be convinced their 'purity of faith' is not sufficient to live) Even then, it seems Word Bearers still have some of Terra-borns in their rank and file. Thus I'm greatly looking forward The Purge.


----------



## hailene

Ecumene said:


> rivaled' not means 'equal'


I would suggest looking up the word rival. A rival is someone close in strength to another--either slightly below _or_ slightly above.



Ecumene said:


> Likewise, I consider they still could not reach fleet strength of Imperial Fists.


Based on what?



Ecumene said:


> but I consider it merely apply on Imperial Army, not the extent of Legiones Astartes.


You didn't read the book then. It specifically talked about Space Marines running out of supplies. It's been many years, but I believe it was a Salamanders petitioning the Fabricator General why on Earth they have to use their own Forgeships to produce bolt rounds for themselves. It was noted in the book that this was a very desperate situation if a fleet's forgeships had to produce their own bolt shells.



Ecumene said:


> -are not curtail or cut short their supply of war material


Source?

The only one I would agree with is the Ultramarines. They had their own mini-empire to draw vast amount of recruits and supplies from. The others were not as fortunate (some less than others).



Ecumene said:


> s And I don't think Lorgar purged most of Terran-born,


You really haven't read much, have you?

It states so in _Massacre_ that they did. Page 141.


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## ckcrawford

I find it hard to assume that the original numbers didn't go up during the heresy for some legions. I know some legions suffered purging casualties. However, unless they had some restrictions of number within their own legions or they suffered massive casualties from unheard battle, it would have to be assumed that the Word Bearers and Ultramarines had more than 300,000 in total. Even after Istvaan the Word Bearers had many years to replenish their ranks.

The battle of Istvaan is grossly represented in the series. Its hard to tell what the hell went on when theres thousands of survivors who survived the Drop Site, despite being sandwiched by seven legions. As such, it is to be assumed that despite such a killing field, the loyalists made massive casualties on the traitors. When really there were only two legions with an Iron Hands veteran unit.


----------



## Ecumene

hailene said:


> I would suggest looking up the word rival. A rival is someone close in strength to another--either slightly below _or_ slightly above.
> 
> 
> 
> Based on what?
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't read the book then. It specifically talked about Space Marines running out of supplies. It's been many years, but I believe it was a Salamanders petitioning the Fabricator General why on Earth they have to use their own Forgeships to produce bolt rounds for themselves. It was noted in the book that this was a very desperate situation if a fleet's forgeships had to produce their own bolt shells.
> 
> 
> 
> Source?
> 
> The only one I would agree with is the Ultramarines. They had their own mini-empire to draw vast amount of recruits and supplies from. The others were not as fortunate (some less than others).
> 
> 
> 
> You really haven't read much, have you?
> 
> It states so in _Massacre_ that they did. Page 141.


1. And you based on what? Prove Word Bearers are the true and only rival/equal/superior of Imperial Fists, and their fleet strength is larger/stronger than IF. And then I will readily concede. Fundamentally we both are making speculation, but only I need to prove and you are not? 

2. Nay, I _read_ that book, definitely. But that is long time ago, this my memory could be false. I will reread that early or late, and confirm that reference. 

3. Source? _Source?_ Then you must need to read Horus Heresy Books. _Massacre_(in case of Iron Hands and Salamanders) and _Extermination_(in case of Raven Guard). And as I said, I didn't see any reference of war material shortage of Loyalist Legions except of Mechanicum(and I'm going to reread it). And even if your reference is true, then why any other books loyalists are certainly not desperately seeking/scavenging war material, except of 'shattered' Legions? In contrast, traitors scavenged war material. And as I already said, Imperial Fist garrisoning Sol System, protecting Terra. Before outbreak schism of Mars, Mechanicum simply cannot curtail war material supply of IF. They are _in_ the Sol System. And if they are refuse IF's demand, undoubtedly it must be seen too suspicious. If you want to prove Loyalist Legion war material shortage theory, then adduce other sources, capable of cross comparison and vouch. I have read most of HH series, but I'm scarcely seeing any of Loyalist Legion forces complain about supply of war material(in Thramas, in Signus Prime, in Prospero, in Calth, in Chondax, even in Isstvan V and Pythos, etc.) And as I said only explicit discriminating distribution war material is the Sicaran battle tank, as Horus Heresy Book said. 

4. No, I had read all of Forge World Heresy Book. And I even cited/quoted sources repetitively. Let's see.

Oh shit. almost completed writing is blown out. But if you see page 139 and 141, then you would know Lorgar doesn't simply exterminated Terrans, but rather converted most of them with decades-long efforts. He only excised the 'old Iconoclast' Terrans before commitment of heresy.


----------



## ckcrawford

Ecumene said:


> 1. And you based on what? Prove Word Bearers are the true and only rival/equal/superior of Imperial Fists, and their fleet strength is larger/stronger than IF. And then I will readily concede. Fundamentally we both are making speculation, but only I need to prove and you are not?
> 
> 2. Nay, I _read_ that book, definitely. But that is long time ago, this my memory could be false. I will reread that early or late, and confirm that reference.
> 
> 3. Source? _Source?_ Then you must need to read Horus Heresy Books. _Massacre_(in case of Iron Hands and Salamanders) and _Extermination_(in case of Raven Guard). And as I said, I didn't see any reference of war material shortage of Loyalist Legions except of Mechanicum(and I'm going to reread it). And even if your reference is true, then why any other books loyalists are certainly not desperately seeking/scavenging war material, except of 'shattered' Legions? In contrast, traitors scavenged war material. And as I already said, Imperial Fist garrisoning Sol System, protecting Terra. Before outbreak schism of Mars, Mechanicum simply cannot curtail war material supply of IF. They are _in_ the Sol System. And if they are refuse IF's demand, undoubtedly it must be seen too suspicious. If you want to prove Loyalist Legion war material shortage theory, then adduce other sources, capable of cross comparison and vouch. I have read most of HH series, but I'm scarcely seeing any of Loyalist Legion forces complain about supply of war material(in Thramas, in Signus Prime, in Prospero, in Calth, in Chondax, even in Isstvan V and Pythos, etc.) And as I said only explicit discriminating distribution war material is the Sicaran battle tank, as Horus Heresy Book said.
> 
> 4. No, I had read all of Forge World Heresy Book. And I even cited/quoted sources repetitively. Let's see.
> 
> Oh shit. almost completed writing is blown out. But if you see page 139 and 141, then you would know Lorgar doesn't simply exterminated Terrans, but rather converted most of them with decades-long efforts. He only excised the 'old Iconoclast' Terrans before commitment of heresy.


I would be careful to absolutely base your facts on either the Imperial Fists or Word Bearers having the biggest Fleets. I would lean towards the Word Bearers simply on the notion that they have survived as a legion better than any other. 

The biggest factor of the Imperial Fists is the fact that they actually had the second greatest amount of victories behind the Luna Wolves which was specifically stated in the beginning of _Horus Rising._ Forge World books are in many sakes bias like the old Index Astartes. Graham McNeill has even been noted in relating many articles of the legion's as similar to 300 comic series.


----------



## hailene

Ecumene said:


> 1. And you based on what? Prove Word Bearers are the true and only rival/equal/superior of Imperial Fists,


Page 143 in _Massacre_. "Given the actions of the so called Abyss class vessels in later campaigns, it is also clear that Lorgar had increased his Legion's naval strength, possibly to _levels which exceeded that of the Imperial fists_."



Ecumene said:


> 2. Nay, I read that book, definitely. But that is long time ago, this my memory could be false. I will reread that early or late, and confirm that reference.


I'll save you some time. Paper back version, page 100. Straken, an Astartes from the Salamanders Legion said, "The lack of armaments and materiel reaching my primarch’s
Legion is becoming critical. This situation cannot be allowed to continue. We have no reserves of ammunition beyond that which the forge ships of the Mechanicum
contingent attached to our expedition fleet produce. Do you have any idea how much ammunition is expended by a Legion on a war footing?"

Kane, a highly placed Mechanicus Adept, remarked that the fact the Salamanders eating into the reserves produced by their forge ships as "a damning indictment of the rate of supply."

Kane later tells the Fabricator General he recognizes a pattern in which Legions are running short on supplies, "...the Legions without supply problems are those acting in
direct support of the Warmaster."



Ecumene said:


> In contrast, traitors scavenged war material.


Where? They're not scavenging because of need, but because it is the fastest way to increase their stocks of rare, hard to craft materiel-- power armor, super heavies, titans, capital ships.



Ecumene said:


> . And as I already said, Imperial Fist garrisoning Sol System, protecting Terra.


It's a recent development. The Imperial Fists are still filtering back towards Terra and finishing their on-going campaign as the Heresy breaks out.

It's not as if they've had a few decades to sit around and accumulate materiel. 



Ecumene said:


> then you would know Lorgar doesn't simply exterminated Terrans, but rather converted most of them with decades-long efforts. He only excised the 'old Iconoclast' Terrans before commitment of heresy.


No. And...no. I'm a bit more forgiving on this one, since the comma usage makes it ambiguous. 

Go to page 146.

"After the LEgion's shaming on Khur and subsequent re-oganisation, these companies appear to have been filled with the majority of those Terran recruits who still remained in the chapter, placed under Colchisian officers of proven fervour and set to the hazardous spearhead of the Legion's future attacks."

Then the next paragraph tells how the legionary Vahn is injured, but survives the battle, however he manages to disappear from the Legion's record without ever reporting to an apothecary. Mysteriously.

This takes away the ambiguity of the comma usage on page 141.


----------



## Ecumene

hailene said:


> Page 143 in _Massacre_. "Given the actions of the so called Abyss class vessels in later campaigns, it is also clear that Lorgar had increased his Legion's naval strength, possibly to _levels which exceeded that of the Imperial fists_."
> 
> 
> I'll save you some time. Paper back version, page 100. Straken, an Astartes from the Salamanders Legion said, "The lack of armaments and materiel reaching my primarch’s
> Legion is becoming critical. This situation cannot be allowed to continue. We have no reserves of ammunition beyond that which the forge ships of the Mechanicum
> contingent attached to our expedition fleet produce. Do you have any idea how much ammunition is expended by a Legion on a war footing?"
> 
> Kane, a highly placed Mechanicus Adept, remarked that the fact the Salamanders eating into the reserves produced by their forge ships as "a damning indictment of the rate of supply."
> 
> Kane later tells the Fabricator General he recognizes a pattern in which Legions are running short on supplies, "...the Legions without supply problems are those acting in
> direct support of the Warmaster."
> 
> 
> 
> Where? They're not scavenging because of need, but because it is the fastest way to increase their stocks of rare, hard to craft materiel-- power armor, super heavies, titans, capital ships.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a recent development. The Imperial Fists are still filtering back towards Terra and finishing their on-going campaign as the Heresy breaks out.
> 
> It's not as if they've had a few decades to sit around and accumulate materiel.
> 
> 
> 
> No. And...no. I'm a bit more forgiving on this one, since the comma usage makes it ambiguous.
> 
> Go to page 146.
> 
> "After the LEgion's shaming on Khur and subsequent re-oganisation, these companies appear to have been filled with the majority of those Terran recruits who still remained in the chapter, placed under Colchisian officers of proven fervour and set to the hazardous spearhead of the Legion's future attacks."
> 
> Then the next paragraph tells how the legionary Vahn is injured, but survives the battle, however he manages to disappear from the Legion's record without ever reporting to an apothecary. Mysteriously.
> 
> This takes away the ambiguity of the comma usage on page 141.


1. Yes, 'possibly'. And I repetitively said fleet size is not equal of fleet strength, variable of 'ships bonded by oath and fealty', and constantly cited/quoted/proved/argued about Imperial Fists fleet strength. That is not enough to verify your opinion.

2. Okay, just now I cross-confirmed it. That much is true. Thank you for saving my time.

3. But they are still _need_ to scavenging. In both Istvaans traitor forces took huge blow and tremendous loss. As you said, they are indeed shortage of rare materials and various armored units, even including MBTs. And regardless this is not our central argument point. As I already said, adduce other sources, capable of cross comparisons and vouch to verify your 'Loyalist shortage' theory. And then I will concede, as I said.

4. No, that does not prove your argument of 'Lorgar already exterminated all of Terrans', not at all. As I said repetitively, WBs rank and file still have many Terran-born, at least before battle of Calth. That 'purge' is nowhere throughout as you said. And page 139 explicitly said Lorgar already converted most of Terran-born Iconoclasts. Thus why exterminating already zealous, fanatical converts right now? Even Lorgar is not _that_ stupid or crazy. Although they also must be purged, Calth is sufficient. 

p.s I about to end this argument. It is utterly pointless, consumptive and drawing unending parallel line.


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## Ecumene

ckcrawford said:


> I would be careful to absolutely base your facts on either the Imperial Fists or Word Bearers having the biggest Fleets. I would lean towards the Word Bearers simply on the notion that they have survived as a legion better than any other.
> 
> The biggest factor of the Imperial Fists is the fact that they actually had the second greatest amount of victories behind the Luna Wolves which was specifically stated in the beginning of _Horus Rising._ Forge World books are in many sakes bias like the old Index Astartes. Graham McNeill has even been noted in relating many articles of the legion's as similar to 300 comic series.


Thus are you saying our arguments about Imperial Fists-World Bearers fleet strength and Alpha Legions battle capability are fundamentally pointless and meaningless? Indeed, I already about to cease this tiresome, wearing argument.


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## hailene

Ecumene said:


> That is not enough to verify your opinion.


Let's back up here. You're putting words in my mouth that I never said. Let me see if I'm doing the same.

What _you're_ saying is that the Imperial Fists have the strongest fleet. No questions asked. Keep in mind, this does not include the fleets and vessels sworn to them by one oath or another. Simply the Imperial Fists fleet. Am I correct? Probably.

Moving on. What I am saying is that is is _unclear_ whether the Imperial Fists have the greatest naval might of all the Legions. It might be the Word Bearers. Might be the Imperial Fists. The information we have gives enough leeway that either can be true.

And that's all my *opinion* is stating.

Burden of proof is on you to prove that the Imperial Fists, on their own, have greater naval might. I'm saying it could go either way.



Ecumene said:


> As I already said, adduce other sources, capable of cross comparisons and vouch to verify your theory.


The Traitor's have most of control of Mars, by far the most productive of all of the Mechanicus's forgeworlds. In addition, the Traitors have also won the loyalty of the Fabricator General himself. (_Mechanicum)_

The Traitors have shown they have high connections in the Mechanicus decades before the Heresy erupts. Hence the construction of the three _Abyss_-class vessels. (_Battle for the Abyss_)

We also know that the Traitors have been readying themselves for many years (decades for the Word Bearers). (Crap ton of sources..._Massacre_, _The First Heretic_, _Galaxy in Flames_ ect.)

I think this third point is the strongest. There's nothing like having 50 years of preparation to get all your ducks in a row. 

And _both_ sides scavenged for war materiel. Loyalists got off the worst of it since the opening major battles (Istvaan III, Istvaan V) the Tratiors are free to salvage the left overs. Particularly in Istvaan V where three Loyalist's Legions have their back broken, both in men and materiel.



Ecumene said:


> And 139 explicitly said Lorgar already converted most Terran-born Iconoclasts.


This is so FRUSTRATING. You're not reading the text!

139 states that Lorgar converted the old Iconclasts into believing the Emperor was a god! Not in Chaos worship.

The purging of the Terrans happened later, when Lorgar switched to Chaos.



Ecumene said:


> p.s I about to end this argument. It is utterly pointless, consumptive and drawing unending parallel line.


It is when you 1. Misconstrue my arguments (basically try to refute points I never made) and 2. You're either not reading the source material or you're misreading it.

Either way, extremely frustrating on my part.


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## Ecumene

hailene said:


> Let's back up here. You're putting words in my mouth that I never said. Let me see if I'm doing the same.
> 
> What _you're_ saying is that the Imperial Fists have the strongest fleet. No questions asked. Keep in mind, this does not include the fleets and vessels sworn to them by one oath or another. Simply the Imperial Fists fleet. Am I correct? Probably.
> 
> Moving on. What I am saying is that is is _unclear_ whether the Imperial Fists have the greatest naval might of all the Legions. It might be the Word Bearers. Might be the Imperial Fists. The information we have gives enough leeway that either can be true.
> 
> And that's all my *opinion* is stating.
> 
> Burden of proof is on you to prove that the Imperial Fists, on their own, have greater naval might. I'm saying it could go either way.
> 
> 
> 
> The Traitor's have most of control of Mars, by far the most productive of all of the Mechanicus's forgeworlds. In addition, the Traitors have also won the loyalty of the Fabricator General himself. (_Mechanicum)_
> 
> The Traitors have shown they have high connections in the Mechanicus decades before the Heresy erupts. Hence the construction of the three _Abyss_-class vessels. (_Battle for the Abyss_)
> 
> We also know that the Traitors have been readying themselves for many years (decades for the Word Bearers). (Crap ton of sources..._Massacre_, _The First Heretic_, _Galaxy in Flames_ ect.)
> 
> I think this third point is the strongest. There's nothing like having 50 years of preparation to get all your ducks in a row.
> 
> And _both_ sides scavenged for war materiel. Loyalists got off the worst of it since the opening major battles (Istvaan III, Istvaan V) the Tratiors are free to salvage the left overs. Particularly in Istvaan V where three Loyalist's Legions have their back broken, both in men and materiel.
> 
> 
> 
> This is so FRUSTRATING. You're not reading the text!
> 
> 139 states that Lorgar converted the old Iconclasts into believing the Emperor was a god! Not in Chaos worship.
> 
> The purging of the Terrans happened later, when Lorgar switched to Chaos.
> 
> 
> 
> It is when you 1. Misconstrue my arguments (basically try to refute points I never made) and 2. You're either not reading the source material or you're misreading it.
> 
> Either way, extremely frustrating on my part.


Oh please please *please*. 

1. I constantly and consistently argued Imperial Fists are the greatest navel force and Word Bearers could not be their equal. And I strive to verify it with various methods. But I feel this part of argument is basically pointless, thanks to ckcrawford.

2. I repetitively said you must prove Loyalist Legions _'desperate shortage of war material'_, not traitor forces' 'preparation' or 'abundance'. They have time, yes. They have resources, yes. They have connections, yes. However all of these are by no means coupled with Loyalists are poor destitute. In fact quite opposite-they are also rich and affluent and in many cases at least on par with Traitor Legions in terms of equipment and supply. And I already said 'shattered Legions' are desperately scavenging war material, as many sources said however before Massacre they are certainly not. 

3. Yes, yes, yes! Lorgar did not purge all of the Terran Legionaries even before Heresy and their purge is nowhere throughout as you said! Actually there are even Legions does not culled their Terran ranks at all(though WB are certainly not). This is not about text. WB are simply not purge all of Terran-borns before commitment of Heresy and battle of Calth. And my point is they don't need to. Lorgar already succeeded converting Iconoclasts to Emperor-believer, and also succeeded converting Emperor-worshipers to Chaos-worshipers. 

I will cease this argument. It is _over_ and I am FRUSTRATING so much. 

Have a nice day.

Just now I confirmed your reply. And I cannot understand WHAT the Hell are you saying, Mr. incorrigible Talking Wall. 

Thus yes, I am truly done with you. It seems you simply cannot comprehend or don't want to comprehend ALL my points of whole of arguments. And certainly this is not about English AND it is utterly pointless, meaningless, tiresome and wearing and above all consumptive. So much _FRUSTRATING _ argument, so much fatigue.


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## hailene

You're neither reading what I'm writing nor what the source material is saying.

I'm done with you. This is pointless when I'm talking to a wall. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume English isn't your first or even second language.


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## ckcrawford

_Throws knife into pit_


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## Rapperport

Some very interesting discussions, guys. I'm looking forward to the next Horus Heresy Forgworld book, to maybe answer some more questions about fleet sizes.


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## Rapperport

Just read a short story in Legacies of Betrayal which states that just prior to Calth the World Eaters had 70,000 Space Marines and the Word Bearers 40,000, amassed to invade Ultramar. Lorgar mentions that his force constitutes 1/3 of his legion. Since Forgeworld says that the Word Bearers had 140,000+ prior to the Heresy, they must've suffered at least 20,000 casualties in between these two events.


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## Vaz

Possibly. But unlikely. He was probably generalising.


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## Angel of Blood

Those 20,000 could be made up from the second purge of the brotherhood, when the Legion killed those thought to be too loyal to the Emperor or convinced in his divinity.


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## hailene

Or he was rounding.


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## Rapperport

Good points guys. 

Just reading Tempest at the moment, which mentions only 40,000 Ultramarines escaped the Battle of Calth from the 200,000 that mustered. The rest either being killed or trapped beneath the surface. The other 50,000 Ultramarines were either on other campaigns or spread out amongst the other worlds of Ultramar.


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## Rapperport

I Dark Angels - 150,000 (estimated)
II
III Emperor's Children - 110,000 (60,000 post Isstvan)
IV Iron Warriors - 150 - 180,000 (pre dropsite massacre), 100+ Capital Ships
V White Scars - 100,000 (Average Legion size)
VI Space Wolves - 100,000 (Average Legion size)
VII Imperial Fists - 98,356 (pre Phall), 1,500 Ships (pre Phall) highest proportion of capital ships
VIII Night Lords - 90,000 - 120,000 (pre dropsite massacre)
IX Blood Angels - 120,000 (pre Signus)
X Iron Hands - 113,000 (38,000 estimated, post dropsite massacre), 100 Capital Ships (33 estimated, post dropsite massacre)
XI
XII World Eaters - 150,000 (112,500 post Isstvan, 70,000 in the Shadow Crusade), 60+ Capital Ships
XIII Ultramarines - 250,000 (90,000 post Calth, the rest either dead or trapped beneath the surface of Calth), 30-35 capital ships
XIV Death Guard - 95,000 (63,000 post Isstvan), 70 Capital Ships, 210+ Escort and Assault Craft
XV Thousand Sons - 10,000 (1,000 post Prospero)
XVI Sons of Horus - 130-170,000 (70-110,000 post Isstvan), 100+ Capital Ships, 300+ Small Cruisers and Escorts
XVII Word Bearers - 140,000+ (rumoured to be close to rivalling the Ultramarines in numbers, 50,000 amassed at Calth, 40,000 in the Shadow Crusade)
XVIII Salamanders - 89,000 (7-8,000 post dropsite massacre)
XIX Raven Guard - 80,000 (4,000 post dropsite massacre)
XX Alpha Legion - 90-180,000 (120-130,000, best estimate)


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## Rapperport

Tempest also has this to say...

In 899.M30 The Ultramarines had 166,000 Astartes in the Legion. It mentions that in the previous decade the Dark Angels had undoubtably been the most powerful single legion, but had suffered 50,000 casualties fighting in the northern Imperium. I think it's fair to say that the Dark Angels would still be in the upper tier of legion strengths by the time of the Horus Heresy.


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