# Theories on Perturabo



## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

I've just finished Angel Exterminatus (Not the greatest but also not the worst IMO) and the main reason I like the book is Graham McNeil's portrayal of Perturabo. I like that he showed a sympathetic & likable character who was an honourable man with grand visions and dreams, who only joined Horus' side through manipulation, guilt & shame. A character underestimated (and some would say looked down upon) by his brothers, an introvert with hidden strength.

Anyway, enough about Perturabo's characteristics. The whole point of this thread is finding out what other people's theories are on Perturabo's character change from the melancholic idealist to the man who sacrificed gene-seed to become a Daemon Prince. I know a lot probably happened in the time between Angel Exterminatus and the Iron Cage incident, so what do people think happened between then?

Do you think exposure to Chaos finally took its toll on him? The bitterness of the whole HH with brother fighting brother hammered out his idealistic & naive conceptions? or is it to do with the rivalry with Dorn? To prove once and for all he was the better strategist with the Iron Cage incident then to cement his superiority with acension to Daemonhood?

I'd really like to know your theories & ideas. :grin:


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

He was broken for all the listed reasons. And above all his unforgiving nature, that doomed him to serve Chaos. Dorn is his good twin at least that's how I see it.


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## sadLor (Jan 18, 2012)

I just finished a reread of Angel Ex yesterday. I know it got a lot of bad reviews but I liked it the first time and I still enjoyed it on my second read.

Like you, I have a hard time imagining what transpired to turn Perturabo from the honourable idealist in Angel Ex to someone who would sacrifice gene seed to become a daemon prince... let alone someone who would even follow Chaos.

But hey, that's why I'm not a writer. I'm sure there will be books detailing Perturabo's fall to chaos in the future.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

I just hope its handled better than Fulgrim's fall.

Although on that note, it's not actually stated what Perturabo sacrificed to ascend is it (Fulgrim doesn't sacrifice gene-seed so that may not be necessary)? If that's the case there's a potentially interesting take on the Iron Cage whereby it's a penance for both Primarchs. Dorn uses it to punish himself for his 'failure' to protect the Emperor and to purge his Legion; while Perturabo uses it to purge himself, sacrificing his humanity, his honour and his ideals in order to ensure that he is prepared for the future of his Legion and the Long War. Totally just thought of that on the spot, and it could be very, very wrong, but I kinda like it.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> I just hope its handled better than Fulgrim's fall.
> 
> Although on that note, it's not actually stated what Perturabo sacrificed to ascend is it (Fulgrim doesn't sacrifice gene-seed so that may not be necessary)? If that's the case there's a potentially interesting take on the Iron Cage whereby it's a penance for both Primarchs. Dorn uses it to punish himself for his 'failure' to protect the Emperor and to purge his Legion; while Perturabo uses it to purge himself, sacrificing his humanity, his honour and his ideals in order to ensure that he is prepared for the future of his Legion and the Long War. Totally just thought of that on the spot, and it could be very, very wrong, but I kinda like it.


The Index Astartes articles covering the Iron Cage incident mention that he did in fact sacrifice gene-seed to become a Daemon-Prince. Specifically the gene-seed from the Imperial Fists that they were unable to recover in their retreat.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

The portrayal of Perturabo is one of the main reasons I didn't like Angel Exterminatus. Crimson Fist had him spot on.

So as far as I'm concerned he shouldn't have had to have changed his nature/personality in order to be willing to sacrifice gene-seed in order to ascend.


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## warsmith7752 (Sep 12, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The portrayal of Perturabo is one of the main reasons I didn't like Angel Exterminatus. Crimson Fist had him spot on.


Not really, his demeanour was wrong. Iron warriors are supposed to be efficient, smashing your own troops in the face and losing your temper is not that. IW's are not really supposed to be all that angry but for some reason authors cannot seem to differentiate between hatred and anger.

I'm not saying his portrayal in AE was that much better either by the way but i do think it was a step in the right direction.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

warsmith7752 said:


> Not really, his demeanour was wrong. Iron warriors are supposed to be efficient, smashing your own troops in the face and losing your temper is not that.


No, but smashing your own troops in the face and losing your temper when your warriors are not able to comfortably engage and destroy a vastly outnumbered enemy fleet (an enemy that is particularly hated by you and your Legion) sounds about right.

His portrayal in _Angel Exterminatus_ went too far in the other direction. He was actually very likeable in _AE_, when in reality (especially after the massacres of Olympia and Isstvan V) he was supposed to be consumed by hatred and bitterness.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

I preferred AE to the truly awful Betrayer. It did have it's faults but personally I enjoyed the way Perturabo was portrayed. I think the overall idea was to show how an introverted frustrated genius like Perturabo slowly starts to realise that he can throw off all the shackles that have held him back.

I get the impression he felt that prior to the Heresy he was trying to be something he wasn't and apart from Magnus he counted none of the Primarchs as brothers as none of them understood him or appreciated his skills.

I think AE shows how his long stored up frustration and anger with everything to do with the Emperor and his brother Primarchs is starting to lead him down the path where hatred of the uncaring Emperor, the ungrateful Imperium and his supercilious brothers lead him to sacrifice his humanity in order to have all eternity to take his revenge.

I think that Crimson Fist takes the story a little further down this same path. His hatred and frustration are that little bit worse. He feels that his traitorous brothers would be laughing at him that his entire fleet led his advanced Primarch mind couldn't even destroy the Imperial Fist's heavily outnumbered fleet not led by a Primarch. 

I think this battle when initially the Imperial Fists are smashing the Iron Warrior fleet stretches my credulity to it's limits considering in AE we see how Peturabo's mind is able to formulate battle plans on an amazing scale and clearly shows how superior his mind is to a normal Space Marine. 

This is a faint echo of the space battle scene in the abomination of a book which is Betrayer, which also wants us to believe that Primarchs can be out thought and out tacticked by mere human fleet commanders. At least in Crimson Fist Perturabo is being out tacticked by a Space Marine fleet commander who had the advantage of their geneseed which passed on some of the Primarch's own genius so the gap isn't as large as it is in Betrayer.

I seriously wanted to use the memory removal thing from Men in Black on myself after reading the the space battle scene in Betrayer to remove that section from my mind as it was the most ridiculous stupid thing I've ever read. Argh my own butchers nails are pulsing at the memory of that cursed book. I swear I'll never read it again. I also wonder whether the book was written that way to inflict such fury on people that they would go some way to knowing how Angron felt? If that is the case it works like a charm.

Back on topic, I'm going to enjoy reading more about Perturabo and his change from AE to the Iron Cage. How anger, bitterness and jealousy can wreak such havoc on a mind as mighty as a Primarch's.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

i Thought Betrayer was great, could you point out what part was the part wherein humans outsmarted a primarch? because i dont seem to recall a time in which that happened in betrayer.

Unless you mean that part when Lorgar and Angron almost died, which was perfectly plausible and did not in the least downplay their martial prowess.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

First stupid thing: 

The Ultramarine fleet arriving in orbit around Nuceria. They are led by Guilliman personally. I accept their fleet are battered having come from Calth. However Guilliman, one of the greatest minds humanity has ever created decides that the best course of action is to fly his battered fleet right past the Word Bearers and World Eaters fleets so they can be ripped to pieces and then land piecemeal.

For reasons unknown to everyone, this awesome mind doesn't think using his strategies and mind to position his fleet in the best way to rip the Word Bearer and World Eaters fleets to pieces is a good idea. Oh come on please.

2nd stupid thing:
Even when Guilliman sees his plan is getting his fleet ripped to pieces while trying to fly past the enemy fleets he doesn't then change the plan. The mind who writes the Codex Astartes and who we know will be similar to that of Perturabo's skills demonstrated in AE, doesn't change his mind and think "this isn't working as well as it could do so I'll change it". He decides to continue and land his forces piece meal where they are then decimated.

3rd stupid thing:
I could have accepted the Ultramarine fleet being battered if another Primarch was controlling the enemy fleet but we're expected to accept that a human fleet commander (no matter how experienced) is able to come up with a plan which is superior to that of one of the 4 best strategists of all the Primarchs in my opinion. (The others being Horus, Alpharius and Lion El'Jonson). 

So to sum up my hatred of this scene:

There's no chance that a strategist like Guilliman would think it was a good plan to simply fly all his already battered ships into to the teeth of the combined Word Bearers and World Eaters Fleets

There's no chance that even if the above did happen, that he wouldn't have tried to change his plan to something more effective rather than continue with the original stupid plan.

Finally I think it's ridiculous that a Human fleet commander would be able to come up with a plan superior to the plan created by a Primarch. However to be fair such is the stupidity of the plan that the author makes Guilliman do that her plan doesn't actually need to be that good to be better than it.

Basically the Ultramarines were used as pantomime enemies so the Word Bearers and World Eaters could beat someone. I've seen more effective believable enemies watching Alladin at the theatre with kids shouting "he's behind you". They didn't use any of their renowned strategic prowess anywhere in the book.

It's my opinion that the book is one big fanboy story for the World Eaters. The basic premise is that all that needs to happen for the World Eaters to overcome any strategy or defence is for their nails to bite deeper. 

That's pretty much how Armatura falls - described as one of the greatest fortress worlds in the Imperium, it falls without needing an orbital bombardment or the Word Bearers needing to summon daemons. A fortress is likely to have immense defensive positions, massive guns to defend it and we know it had a billion normal troops defending it. 

In a stand up battle these billion troops would stand no chance against Space Marines but when entrenched within fortresses manning massive weaponry they would have have been able to inflict fearful casualties on any attackers especially since the fortresses weren't damaged by any orbital bombardment. Are these fearful casualties described or are the battle scenes about all the attacks succeeding? Do we see mention of any fortresses? No, not even one. How about defensive weaponry, again nothing.

I would have been able to accept Armatura falling in the way it did if it hadn't been described as a f***ing fortress world? Does the author even know what qualifies a planet as a fortress as I think not considering his portrayal of it.

Now I'm not saying there are no positive points in the book, just not many. I'd say I enjoyed 5% of it which is the few scenes where Kharne and Argel Tal chat, Lorgar talks to Angron and Magnus chats to Lorgar.

However these few good points don't make up for the fact that in my book, for a warfare book to be good it needs a good enemy and the Ultramarines were portrayed as useless pantomime enemies all the way through who decided that they wouldn't follow any established fluff on them and not use any strategies or tactics at all.

I know that my opinion won't be shared by everyone and I don't expect people to agree. However in my opinion Betrayer is simply one of the worst 5 books I've ever read.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Damn this was actually hilarious. I wanted to rep you again Zera, but wasn't allowed. Stupid rules. At least consider yourself bookmarked as this one is damn funny with the idiot balls handed out.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Damn this was actually hilarious. I wanted to rep you again Zera, but wasn't allowed. Stupid rules. At least consider yourself bookmarked as this one is damn funny with the idiot balls handed out.


Cheers, it took me ages to write as I was getting angry even thinking about the book, and it's hard to formulate a decent sentence while doing an Angron impression!! :grin:


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I must read this book as Guilliman acting as stupid as Abbadon in fanon is something I don't want to miss. Just one question: The planet wasn't like a death-star which could blow Emperor-class battleships from space with just a powerful beam? Was it?


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> I must read this book as Guilliman acting as stupid as Abbadon in fanon is something I don't want to miss. Just one question: The planet wasn't like a death-star which could blow Emperor-class battleships from space with just a powerful beam? Was it?


No, it's just described as a fortress world. It had massive orbital defences which were annihilated by the Blessed Lady and her sister ship Trisagion (of the Furious Abyss class) which is fair enough as they were brutes. However for me a fortress world has immense ground defences as well and it's these which are sadly missing. I simply don't believe that Guilliman would have overlooked this aspect of the defences.


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## sadLor (Jan 18, 2012)

zerachiel76 said:


> No, it's just described as a fortress world. It had massive orbital defences which were annihilated by the Blessed Lady and her sister ship Trisagion (of the Furious Abyss class) which is fair enough as they were brutes. However for me a fortress world has immense ground defences as well and it's these which are sadly missing. I simply don't believe that Guilliman would have overlooked this aspect of the defences.


It did mention they had over a *billion* soldiers on the planet. Thousands of ultramarines on the planet...with countless more undergoing the process of becoming gene enhanced. Don't really remember how the Word Bearers/World Eaters won the battle. I will have to reread it.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Over a billion soldiers on the ground seems like no threat at all to space ships. I mean they are on the ground.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think between this and the Iron Cage Incident that Perturabo slowly loses any connection to his legion and his ambition to the corporeal realm. 

Its hard to say where Perturabo truly loses his responsibilities to his legion and the rebellion. IT could be either the Iron Cage or the very walls of Terra. I chose to think, any ambition, satisfaction, or material goal in the material realm is lost in Perturabo that last time he has an exstacy feeling after tearing down his rivals defences. After this I think he starts to let the corruption lead him to great ambitions. 

As far as McNeill's and French's depictions, I feel that neither really gave him justice. Both scenarios really made him incompetent to the point that you don't really believe the traits that make him who he is. McNeil's portrayal would have made more sense before Istvaan. I think Istvaan really creates the monsters and inhuman traitors primarchs who they are from that point on. I think ADB does that well with how dark the traitors appear over their decisions. I often wonder how Perturabo's portrayal looks to ADB, because of his more realistic portrayal of scenarios and character, despite things I still question him about.


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## Matcap (Aug 23, 2012)

zerachiel76 said:


> First stupid thing:


Although the rage is funny you are making a few errors I think. 

- Firstly: the battle between the fleets of Gulliman and Word Bearers/World Eaters doesn't happen at Armatura, that happens above Angron's old "home planet" (nunceria/de'sha?) which has no orbital defences and where the inhabitants struggle to understand what the dropships/pods falling from the sky are. WE and WB are happily slaughtering the inhabitants as Gulliman surprises them with his ragtag fleet.

- Armatura gets taken by large parts of two legions (maybe even the whole of the WE, not sure on that one) before that after a prolonged campaign directed by two primarchs vs (Gulliman hadn't arrived yet) "regular" space marines, with the help of 4 of the most powerful battleships in the imperium: Two legion flagships and two Furious Abyss class ships.

- Although no UM fan, Gulliman's tactical decisions when he does arrive are not completely without merit. Time is a factor as he wants to get to the WB/WE ground forces before they can entrench/escape and he needs to break past 3 very powerful ships: 2 of the legion flagships and an abyss class (most other parts of the legion fleets having been scattered across the Ultramar empire on Lorgars orders. Which, as both the traitor legions are concentrated in/around a single ciy, don't need to cover the whole planet and can stick together. He can't take them on one on one so decides to work with what he has: numbers. In the end, both those legion flagships are destroyed and the abyss damaged. + take into account that the Primarchs are not above emotion and after having just seen a big part of his mini empire murdered/raped/pillaged it's not unthinkable Gulliman might be a bit rash in some of his decision making and pursuing a personal vendetta.


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

Matcap said:


> . In the end, both those legion flagships are destroyed and the abyss damaged. + take into account that the Primarchs are not above emotion and after having just seen a big part of his mini empire murdered/raped/pillaged it's not unthinkable Gulliman might be a bit rash in some of his decision making and pursuing a personal vendetta.


Minor nitpick: only the Word Bearer flagship is destroyed. The World Eater one survives.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Matcap said:


> Although the rage is funny you are making a few errors I think.
> 
> - Firstly: the battle between the fleets of Gulliman and Word Bearers/World Eaters doesn't happen at Armatura, that happens above Angron's old "home planet" (nunceria/de'sha?) which has no orbital defences and where the inhabitants struggle to understand what the dropships/pods falling from the sky are. WE and WB are happily slaughtering the inhabitants as Gulliman surprises them with his ragtag fleet.
> 
> - Armatura gets taken by large parts of two legions (maybe even the whole of the WE, not sure on that one) before that after a prolonged campaign directed by two primarchs vs (Gulliman hadn't arrived yet) "regular" space marines, with the help of 4 of the most powerful battleships in the imperium: Two legion flagships and two Furious Abyss class ships.


Thanks for your comments but if you read my post at the top of the page then I do state the space battle happened at Nuceria rather than Armatura. My complaints are split between the actions on both planets.

Armatura's orbital defences are destroyed by the fleet but I'm certain there's a line in the book which states that the ships are specifically told not to bombard the planet so it could be assaulted. My point regarding this fortress world not having any fortresses on it (or at least none are mentioned during the battles). I accept it's assaulted by both Legions but the impression is given that the Legions simply smash it while not suffering many casualties in return. How can 2 legions assault a fortress world but not encounter massive defence networks similar to those in the latest White Dwarf which include emplacements with Macro Cannons, Defence Lasers etc etc. To me a fortress world needs these otherwise it ain't a fortress world. The defenders simply roll over and die.



Matcap said:


> - Although no UM fan, Gulliman's tactical decisions when he does arrive are not completely without merit. Time is a factor as he wants to get to the WB/WE ground forces before they can entrench/escape and he needs to break past 3 very powerful ships: 2 of the legion flagships and an abyss class (most other parts of the legion fleets having been scattered across the Ultramar empire on Lorgars orders. Which, as both the traitor legions are concentrated in/around a single ciy, don't need to cover the whole planet and can stick together. He can't take them on one on one so decides to work with what he has: numbers. In the end, both those legion flagships are destroyed and the abyss damaged. + take into account that the Primarchs are not above emotion and after having just seen a big part of his mini empire murdered/raped/pillaged it's not unthinkable Gulliman might be a bit rash in some of his decision making and pursuing a personal vendetta.


I'm sorry but I don't agree with your opinion on the space battle over Nuceria (with one exception stated below). Guilliman knows his ships are battered from Calth (they are described as such in the text) and Guilliman is a master of logistics meaning he'll know the tactical capabilities of all the ships and personnel in his force.

When Guilliman's ships came out of warp and saw the 2 enemy flagships and 2 Abyss class super battleships why does he not try and hit and run tactics similar to that utilised by Alexis Pollux in Crimson Fist which was battering the Iron Warriors fleet until it had to retreat under orders. Why not split the fleet to go around the enemy? 

After all the outnumbered Word Bearers and World Eaters ships can't cover every single approach to Nuceria? Why not try anything apart from the World Eaters approach to war which is to charge and get to grips in close combat? Seeing the size of the Abyss Battleships would have made any sane man pause let alone a strategic genius like Guilliman.

Also it doesn't explain why he doesn't try to change the plan when he sees it's obviously not working.



Matcap said:


> take into account that the Primarchs are not above emotion and after having just seen a big part of his mini empire murdered/raped/pillaged it's not unthinkable Gulliman might be a bit rash in some of his decision making and pursuing a personal vendetta.


This I agree with as his actions could suggest this, however Guilliman's portrayal during the battle with Angron and Lorgar don't seem to show him lost to rage which you would expect if you use that for the excuse for his atrocious planning and execution of the space battle.

I don't expect everyone to agree but I stick to my opinion that this book is simply Word Bearer/World Eater fanboy rubbish designed to win high praise amongst all the Ultramarine haters out there. All the Ultramarines areas of expertise are ignored apart from discipline and they are shown in the worst possible pantomime way. Where was the tactical and strategic expertise that Guilliman and the Ultramarines were famous for, lost in a fanboy haze of World Eater and Word Bearer bolter porn.

Another massive thing which really angered me was the author's message in the epilogue where he describes his attempts to make the Ultramarines a credible believable enemy while keeping to the story of them being beaten. I'm sorry but in my opinion ADB failed absolutely on this. He used the Ultramarines as a pantomime enemy to be beaten and humiliated in any way possible. I wouldn't have minded this had he at least made the Ultramarines adhere to all the information provided by Games Workshop.

The Ultramarines could have fought brave, clever, tactically astute defensive battles using all the defenses (macro cannon emplacements, defense lasers, minefields, fortresses etc etc) on their fortress world, while still ultimately failing and falling to the Word Bearers, their daemonic allies (where were these - surely they weren't all on Calth?), super battleships, possessed space marines, Kharn, the World Eaters and their butcher's nails. The Ultramarines could have sprung clever traps on the almost mindless enemies (World Eaters), used all the defenses on their own worlds which the Word Bearers and World Eaters wouldn't be aware of.Yet ADB made the Ultramarines roll over and die pathetically easily without achieving anything of note. 

From reading ADB's other better written books I realised he likes writing about the Traitor legions much more than the Loyalists and his favourite occupation is to make the Loyalists die in as many stupid ways as possible without achieving anything notable. I only hope he can somehow address this huge flaw in future novels and follow all the existing fluff provided by Games Workshop, or avoid writing about battles between the Traitors and Loyalists at all until he can put his personal allegiances aside and write a balanced novel. After all, at this rate Horus will win the Heresy if ADB gets to write the critical novels involving Terra as when he writes a book the Loyalists are all incompetent idiots while the Traitors win while not actually having to do much except waiting for the Loyalists to hand the battle to them.

Stopping now as my impression of Angron is frightening those around me. :angry:


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## Matcap (Aug 23, 2012)

Holy Mother of replies :shok: let me see if I can reply before I have to leave the house again :grin: in spoilers because spoilers abound.







zerachiel76 said:


> Thanks for your comments but if you read my post at the top of the page then I do state the space battle happened at Nuceria rather than Armatura. My complaints are split between the actions on both planets.
> 
> Armatura's orbital defences are destroyed by the fleet but I'm certain there's a line in the book which states that the ships are specifically told not to bombard the planet so it could be assaulted. My point regarding this fortress world not having any fortresses on it (or at least none are mentioned during the battles). I accept it's assaulted by both Legions but the impression is given that the Legions simply smash it while not suffering many casualties in return. How can 2 legions assault a fortress world but not encounter massive defence networks similar to those in the latest White Dwarf which include emplacements with Macro Cannons, Defence Lasers etc etc. To me a fortress world needs these otherwise it ain't a fortress world. The defenders simply roll over and die.


You are right on the non bombardment point and I read over the part where you did split the worlds. My apologies. Still the book also describes titan legions being used and the world eaters for example don't get off lightly in my opinion. 

_"Khârn arrived late, after half of the squads here were already buried in the wreckage. The avenues were cut threads, strangled by the rubble of priceless marble. Here and there, the tracks of a World Eaters tank were visible at the very edges of the settled avalanche.
Sniper fire spat from the remaining rooftops and balconies above, lancing through World Eaters helms and dropping the warriors where they stood. Ultramarines gunships roared overhead, their engines laughing in crescendo to the staccato chuckles of their heavy bolters. They fired and fired, pouring their anger down onto the dying Eaters of Worlds"
_

Is a quote showing a very small part of the battle where the WE get their arses handed to them. If you extrapolate this to the whole battle it means lots of losses for the WE at least
Most of that part of the book is written from Kharn's very narrow point of view. It shows the extremely confused parts in the battle where he is (barely) lucid enough to register his surroundings and there he laments the needless losses his legion suffers. ADB could have been more explicit on the amount of losses taken by the attackers but neither does it say "no WE/WB were harmed in the making of this assault." 



zerachiel76 said:


> I'm sorry but I don't agree with your opinion on the space battle over Nuceria (with one exception stated below). Guilliman knows his ships are battered from Calth (they are described as such in the text) and Guilliman is a master of logistics meaning he'll know the tactical capabilities of all the ships and personnel in his force.
> 
> When Guilliman's ships came out of warp and saw the 2 enemy flagships and 2 Abyss class super battleships why does he not try and hit and run tactics similar to that utilised by Alexis Pollux in Crimson Fist which was battering the Iron Warriors fleet until it had to retreat under orders. Why not split the fleet to go around the enemy?
> 
> ...


Technically there was only one abyss class at nuceria, still makes for the same point though 

On to why he can't really use hit and run tactics on the large ships because of the fact he wants to land his own troops. Which, if he lands them away from the city WE/WB are in, face an entrenched enemy under cover from 3 massive battleships. Where in his current tactic he evens the odds by occupying/destroying at cost the battleships (which he also doesn't want to have running around Ultramar wrecking planets) and using deep strike tactics, which space marines excell at.

I actually read the book as the UM if not winning at least holding their ground. Only with the loss of the Emperor class titan and Gulliman's defeat/Angron's ascension did things turn around. This you could blame on Guilliman as a tactical error, however he couldn't have know Lorgar's plans for Angron and this could have also been blamed on the choice of leading from the front. Although that choice can be explained by an earlier short story where he runs endless "practice battles" with part of his own legion playing the role of other legions. The result of which inevitably are that they need Guilliman in the battle to win against other legions if led by a primarch.



zerachiel76 said:


> This I agree with as his actions could suggest this, however Guilliman's portrayal during the battle with Angron and Lorgar don't seem to show him lost to rage which you would expect if you use that for the excuse for his atrocious planning and execution of the space battle.


Well this is in part due to the very limited view we get of Guilliman as we view the proceedings from the other side, Guilliman being renowned for his 'stone facedness'. For example even in Know no Fear, as one of his crown worlds is burning around him, he is almost killed and thousands of his marines die he still remains, externally at least, relatively calm in my opinion.


Great discussion by the way I love these kind of discussions  
I really have to run now but will get back to you when I get home.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Hi Matcap,

2 things 

Holy Mother of replies is the best expression I've heard in years!! :biggrin:
Your post itself was great. I don't have time to respond this morning before work so I thought I'd post a quick one to say thanks for the great debate on this and I'll reply tonight when I get back.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> So to sum up my hatred of this scene:
> 
> There's no chance that a strategist like Guilliman would think it was a good plan to simply fly all his already battered ships into to the teeth of the combined Word Bearers and World Eaters Fleets
> 
> ...


I've seen this criticism of _Betrayer_ a couple of times now. I'm sorry, but please read the book properly. The justifications for Guilliman's actions are right there in the prose:





Ebook page 823 said:


> 'Why chase me, Roboute? Why? Your fleet will fall against the _Trisagion_ and you'll die down here.'
> 'There is a difference between confidence and arrogance, cur. Surely someone has told you that.'
> The Word Bearer spat blood again. 'But why come? Why come at all?'
> 'Courage.' Guilliman stalked forwards, ignoring his wound, and he didn't need to struggle for a smile - it came as easily as breathing. 'Courage and honour, Lorgar. Two virtues you have never known.'





Ebook page 863 said:


> He [Lhorke] admired Lord Guilliman's plan. Although it suffered from the unexpected presence of the Word Bearers king-ship, and Lotara's tactical refusal to give ground unless she had no other choice, this was the Ultramarines' best chance to kill both rebel Primarchs before they fled Ultramar's borders once and for all. Lhorke couldn't begin to guess what intelligence Lord Guilliman was using in his operations, but given the Ultramarines commander's reputation for tactical acuity across the length and breadth of the Imperium, he knew this was no thoughtless raid. At best, it was a strike that had gone at least partly awry due to the World Eaters' fierce resistance. Much likelier, it was the vanguard assault of a much larger fleet action about to break open across the Nucerian System.
> Lhorke suspected the Lord of the Five Hundred Worlds had gathered what vessels he could spare after Kor Phaeron's ambush, drawn additional numbers from the first relief fleet bound for Calth after the massacre and chased Lorgar directly through the XIII Legion's own astropathic choirs. He was certain of it because it was exactly what he would have done in Guilliman's place.
> Perhaps other psykers could hear the Word Bearers' mythical 'song'. Perhaps they could sense the disruption of Lorgar's sixth sense. Lhorke knew nothing of it, and cared even less. But Guilliman was here, and forcing them to fight. Courage and honour.






zerachiel76 said:


> Basically the Ultramarines were used as pantomime enemies so the Word Bearers and World Eaters could beat someone. I've seen more effective believable enemies watching Alladin at the theatre with kids shouting "he's behind you". They didn't use any of their renowned strategic prowess anywhere in the book.


You must have missed the bits where the Ultramarines were kicking ass and taking names.




zerachiel76 said:


> I don't expect everyone to agree but I stick to my opinion that this book is simply Word Bearer/World Eater fanboy rubbish designed to win high praise amongst all the Ultramarine haters out there.


That's some massive disrespect for an author who has nothing but an impeccable track record in such matters. You really haven't got a clue if you think AD-B would write for that purpose.



zerachiel76 said:


> Another massive thing which really angered me was the author's message in the epilogue where he describes his attempts to make the Ultramarines a credible believable enemy while keeping to the story of them being beaten. I'm sorry but in my opinion ADB failed absolutely on this. He used the Ultramarines as a pantomime enemy to be beaten and humiliated in any way possible. I wouldn't have minded this had he at least made the Ultramarines adhere to all the information provided by Games Workshop.
> 
> The Ultramarines could have fought brave, clever, tactically astute defensive battles using all the defenses (macro cannon emplacements, defense lasers, minefields, fortresses etc etc) on their fortress world, while still ultimately failing and falling to the Word Bearers, their daemonic allies (where were these - surely they weren't all on Calth?), super battleships, possessed space marines, Kharn, the World Eaters and their butcher's nails. The Ultramarines could have sprung clever traps on the almost mindless enemies (World Eaters), used all the defenses on their own worlds which the Word Bearers and World Eaters wouldn't be aware of.Yet ADB made the Ultramarines roll over and die pathetically easily without achieving anything of note.


Did we not read the same book? There were numerous examples of the Ultramarines triumphing in individual circumstances or delaying the inevitable. But let's cut the bullshit here, the World Eater's and Word Bearers were intended to win the battle for Armatura, that was part of the plot. Considering the book (IIRC) was entirely from the traitor's perspective I can't see how the XIII were portrayed poorly at all. Would you have been happy if AD-B have dragged the book out another 100 (Ebook) pages to show the Ultramarines utilising some effective tactics on Armatura just for the ultimate conclusion of the battle to have been the same? That's not what the book was about. AD-B directly addresses this in his _author's note_, and even personally lists a couple of examples where the Ultramarines beat the World Eaters/Word Bearers:


...Another trial in any Horus Heresy novel is presenting the antagonists as credible, convincing threats. No one Legion is 'better' than any other. Sure, Legions will lose fights. That's the nature of the game, especially in a book specifically about one of those losses. But I always think the key is to make sure the other side don't look like chumps. I'm quite lucky in that I don't have a favourite Legion - I pretty much love them all. That's great for avoiding bias, but even so, I tried not to make the Space Wolves or the Ultramarines come out like punks purely because _Betrayer_ happened to be about victories for the Word Bearers and the World Eaters.

There are several scenes where I hope that comes across: where the Ultramarines discipline wrecks the chaotic (little 'C') World Eaters, or where they inflict grievous casualties, and quite literally send Khârn flying, to land on his backside. Same with the Wolves: Where Russ and his Legion drive the World Eaters to a bitter stalemate, perhaps losing the battle of pride, but succinctly and effectively winning the war.


It is such a paltry and false criticism of a good book. Unfortunately, similar criticisms occur fairly often in regards to the Heresy series when certain Legions/characters are not portrayed in a manner that people think they should be portrayed. Some of these criticisms are valid and objective (as in regards to the Word Bearers portrayal in _Battle for the Abyss_), but most are just dripping in subjectivity and personal bias. There are, really, no grounds to suggest the Ultramarines were done a disservice by AD-B's portrayal of them in _Betrayer_ - especially when compared to almost every other Heresy novel.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I've seen this criticism of _Betrayer_ a couple of times now. I'm sorry, but please read the book properly. The justifications for Guilliman's actions are right there in the prose:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To be honest I'm not interested in arguing with you. I've already stated I'm not trying to convert anyone to my point of view. I was asked to explain it which I've done but I'm not here to try to convince you or anyone else what I say is correct. I've merely stated my opinions on the book and you have stated yours.

You've quoted the author's own note and I've already stated my feelings on it. I still feel that the author's own note was for me the final nail in the coffin in which was for me a terrible book. I offer to agree to differ on it with you.

I am allowed to have my own opinion on the book, I've never tried to depict my opinion as anything else and under UK law I'm free to offer my opinion since it doesn't fall foul of any hate speech law.

Finally, if you hadn't come across belligerently in attacking my opinion and offered a little more respect for it like matcap did, I might have been interested in debating with you but as things are, our discussion on this particular matter is over and again I'll offer to agree to disagree. I respect your opinion and note the information you have stated but will keep my opinions on it it myself.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> To be honest I'm not interested in arguing with you. I've already stated I'm not trying to convert anyone to my point of view. I was asked to explain it which I've done but I'm not here to try to convince you or anyone else what I say is correct. I've merely stated my opinions on the book and you have stated yours.
> 
> You've quoted the author's own note and I've already stated my feelings on it. I still feel that the author's own note was for me the final nail in the coffin in which was for me a terrible book. I offer to agree to differ on it with you.
> 
> ...


I'm not the argumentative type, and certainly wasn't looking for an argument. So if it came across that way, my bad. I'm just utterly baffled by your position on this one. 

Your primary criticism seems to be based on Guilliman's strategy whilst attacking the combined World Eaters and Word Bearers force on Nuceria. We don't see a single scene from an Ultramarine/Guilliman perspective in relation to the assault on Nuceria so we don't know for certain what he knew or intended. But the quote from Lhorke (that I posted in my last post) justifies Guilliman's actions completely: 

Taking advantage of the last chance he would get to kill both rebel Primarchs before they left Ultramar (and prevent whatever he thought Lorgar was doing with his warp-song) he gathered whatever ships he could muster from Calth and any relief fleets and attacked Nuceria. Guilliman needed to make planet-fall to confront Lorgar and Angron so sprung a quick assault on the rebel fleet. As Lhorke reasons, Guilliman's plan suffered from the unexpected presence of the Word Bearers "king-ship" and Lotara's stubborn (and illogical/unpredictable) tactical refusal to give ground, despite that being the more sensible/tactically-sound option (only reinforced given the state of the _Conqueror_ post-battle). Lhorke also reasons that given Guilliman's tactical acumen it is highly likely that the initial Ultramarine force is only the vanguard of a much larger fleet that would support his assault. Given all that, I don't see any tactical flaw in Guilliman's strategy given what was at stake (it being the last chance to confront Angron and Lorgar, and to prevent Lorgar's ruinstorm/warp ritual). Thus waiting for a further build up of Legion forces or adopting a more cautious approach wasn't really an option. I just don't understand the criticisms.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Matcap said:


> Holy Mother of replies :shok: let me see if I can reply before I have to leave the house again :grin: in spoilers because spoilers abound.
> 
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> 
> ...






Fair point on the WE losses, however I still feel that it was presented as the despite these losses, all the WEs needed to do to win the battle was to simply get angrier and angrier. As a student of real military campaigns this very rarely ever happens. It is the calm disciplined troops which would normally carry the day. The berzerkers do have their victories as well of course but against a disciplined well trained enemy they would be slaughtered.

I use the Roman Legions as an example of how much smaller number of troops could defeat much larger enemies over and over again through training and discipline. (The battle of Teutoberg Forest being a rare exception, but even this involved the Germanic tribes leader being trained by the Romans themselves and treachery.).



Matcap said:


> Technically there was only one abyss class at nuceria, still makes for the same point though


My mistake, sorry about that.




Matcap said:


> On to why he can't really use hit and run tactics on the large ships because of the fact he wants to land his own troops. Which, if he lands them away from the city WE/WB are in, face an entrenched enemy under cover from 3 massive battleships. Where in his current tactic he evens the odds by occupying/destroying at cost the battleships (which he also doesn't want to have running around Ultramar wrecking planets) and using deep strike tactics, which space marines excell at.


It's this I have a problem with. If he'd have used his genius to take the enemy fleets apart bit by bit, ship by ship then once this was done the WEs and WB would have been stranded on Nuceria and could have been dealt with in good time. They would have been stuck on this useless planet with their fleets destroyed and Guilliman could have bombarded the planet, even used planet destroying weapons on it to make sure that Lorgar, Angron and their forces were dead. Not even a Primarch could survive planet busting weapons.

Of course this destruction couldn't have happened as we know what ultimately happened to both Angron and Lorgar so ADB is if you excuse the pun, the author of his own misfortune. He has to think of a plotline which would let Lorgar and Angron escape otherwise he would have to rewrite a large chunk of the story to make the meeting of the 3 Primarchs happen in different circumstance. So he makes Guilliman adopt a plan completely contrary to his own character involving this near suicidal WE like charge past the WE and WB fleets to land UMs on Nuceria to confront the 2 traitor Primarchs. See below my opinions on that:



Matcap said:


> I actually read the book as the UM if not winning at least holding their ground. Only with the loss of the Emperor class titan and Gulliman's defeat/Angron's ascension did things turn around. This you could blame on Guilliman as a tactical error, however he couldn't have know Lorgar's plans for Angron and this could have also been blamed on the choice of leading from the front. Although that choice can be explained by an earlier short story where he runs endless "practice battles" with part of his own legion playing the role of other legions. The result of which inevitably are that they need Guilliman in the battle to win against other legions if led by a primarch.


Again I think this is ridiculous writing for Guilliman. Corax clearly knows that Angron is an extraordinarily powerful close combat fighter who only Horus or possibly Sanguinius could defeat so why doesn't Guilliman take this prowess into account? This depiction of Guilliman's powers of reasoning alone would stretch my credulity but even worse, not only does the author make Guilliman he think that he can take on Angron, but also take on Lorgar at the same time?? I'm sorry but I simply don't believe Guilliman would make this mistake. I think this is more of the case I've set out above, where ADB has written himself into a corner and needs some sort of escape for Lorgar and Angron so they can continue with the story as we know it.



Matcap said:


> Well this is in part due to the very limited view we get of Guilliman as we view the proceedings from the other side, Guilliman being renowned for his 'stone facedness'. For example even in Know no Fear, as one of his crown worlds is burning around him, he is almost killed and thousands of his marines die he still remains, externally at least, relatively calm in my opinion.


I agree he remains calm most of the time but he does have that point where he screams about killing Lorgar. I think this shows his facade does at times crack and when it doesn't in Betrayer I think this is the author showing him not making mistakes due to anger, but just simply making stupid mistakes which simply go against all the other information we have on Guilliman. His strategic and tactical planning were renowned and so by showing Guilliman making such stupid mistakes, I think the author has simply misrepresented Guilliman and I stick to my opinion that this was done deliberately to pander to the Ultramarine hating readers of which there seem to be an awful lot or possibly simply didn't want to rewrite the story or both.



Matcap said:


> Great discussion by the way I love these kind of discussions
> I really have to run now but will get back to you when I get home.



Thank you, and I've enjoyed our discussion immensely too. You've disagreed with me without being belligerent and rude and I appreciate it. I have a feeling you'd do brilliantly on a debating team.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Oh man. This thread has been tainted by bashing _Know no Fear._ I've stated my opinions about it on other threads. ADB does a good job of putting the novel in line with the events of the Heresy. I feel that the traitors have acted incompetently as a whole, along with the retarded version of Angron. 

On subject, I would say that so much lore could have been created about Perturabo. Perturabo and Dorn are a great representation of Hephaestus and Athena. They (the authors that have represented the two) have not really gone into good detail about how each primarch became what they were meant to be.

They have done some explanation about how, but not why. Hephaestus was born from Hera, and represents asexual reproduction from a female (according to Ancient Greece this is a taint, due to their belief that men are the most important in the role of creation). Contrary, Athena represents in someways the asexual reproduction of Zeus (though there is more to the story than Zeus trying to push a baby out). Essentially, Perturabo seems to represent Hephaestus while Dorn represents Athena. This is interesting due to the relationship that both primarchs experience politically with the other primarchs along with the Emperor. Essentially, Hephaestus is thrown out of Olympia because Hera is dissapointed at her creation, while Zeus gives birth to what prophecy considers to be the strongest of the Gods. Though Athena is the strongest her will is directly controlled by Zeus. Hephaestus gets thrown out of Olympia and acquires an injury that represents an imperfection that haunts him when he grows up to join the rest of the Gods. He is essentially considered the lowest of the Gods even though he creates Zeus' thunderbolts and goes on to create the greatest weapons and armor for the Gods. 

In a way, Zeus and Hera could represent the Emperor in two different states. I believe that if they tried to incorporate this lore with Dorn and Perturabo instead of vaguely touching it, this could represent that perhaps the Emperor created Perturabo in a very unethical and disturbing way (when viewing it through the context of Ancient Greece). Where Dorn is created perfectly. In someways Athena's traits reflect Dorns, the aspect of the Warrior, Weaving (Domesticity, which with Dorn represents him commanding the heart of the Imperium), along with wisdom. In many ways, Perturabo is looked down by a lot of the other Primarchs, and he is used as a pure tool. It would be interesting to know more about how the Emperor created these two and perhaps all the Primarchs. It would explain why he favors some and looks down on others. It is possible that the Emperor himself tainted or created something monstrous (maybe that word is to strong) when he made Perturabo and some of the other Primarchs that were not valued to him as much as others.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Oh man. This thread has been tainted by bashing _Know no Fear._ I've stated my opinions about it on other threads. ADB does a good job of putting the novel in line with the events of the Heresy. I feel that the traitors have acted incompetently as a whole, along with the retarded version of Angron.
> 
> On subject, I would say that so much lore could have been created about Perturabo. Perturabo and Dorn are a great representation of Hephaestus and Athena. They (the authors that have represented the two) have not really gone into good detail about how each primarch became what they were meant to be.
> 
> ...


This is great quote and I would gladly borrow it for my upcoming review (giving you creds of course).


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

*Angel Exterminatus*

My most powerful memory of Angel Exterminatus was the moment when Fulgrim plans to sacrifice his brother Perturabo, a moment if any that could have awakened doubt as to his choices and loyalty to Horus, but is also a moment, not the first of its kind, when a life threatening moment awakens a powerful hidden, latent Psychic ability that allows Perturabo to shrug off the chaos deamon and Fulgrims killing ritual.

As in one form or another Fulgrim kills Ferrus Manus, Dorn and Guilliman in combat, Perturabo seems to have beaten both Primarch Fulgrim and Deamon Prince Fulgrim and survived, it could be argued as such and i have.

the Intelligence imbued in Perturabo by McNeil reminds of the moral position of Alpharius, a Primarch who can see that he may be stuck on the side of chaos, but has no loyalty to it.

The same could be said of Magnus, Alpharius and also for different reasons Curze. They are there for there own reasons. Even Mortarion has to be tricked into becoming a Deamon Primce of Nurgle, so the later fall or Perurabo to Deamonism could be for any number of reasons.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

So does anyone else think Perturabo is running the forge the Soul Grinders come from?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I wouldn't be surprised to be honest, though lore states he has locked himself in his fortress after that nurgle attack on that one planet. I suppose one can say that he could find someway to leave his planet and travel through the warp because he isn't a material being persae.


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