# What came first - Blood Ravens or Dawn of War



## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

I've always thought the Blood Ravens were strictly a construct of the Dawn of War game, but I've been seeing increasing references to them from the codicies. This got me to wondering, were the Blood Ravens a stand-alone chapter before the Dawn of War game adopted them, or has GW adopted them due to the popularity of the DoW game?

In the end, I suppose it doesn't make a lot of difference, as long as GS Goto doesn't get ahold of them again... like the Southpark Indiana Jones episode, but for WH40K :shok:


----------



## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

I believe they were created for the DoW game, and have been ret-conned in due to said popularity


----------



## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> I've always thought the Blood Ravens were strictly a construct of the Dawn of War game, but I've been seeing increasing references to them from the codicies. This got me to wondering, were the Blood Ravens a stand-alone chapter before the Dawn of War game adopted them, or has GW adopted them due to the popularity of the DoW game?
> 
> In the end, I suppose it doesn't make a lot of difference, as long as GS Goto doesn't get ahold of them again... like the Southpark Indiana Jones episode, but for WH40K :shok:


Care to provide examples?


----------



## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

Yep, the Blood Ravens were a Fan Fiction Chapter created specifically for Dawn of War by its makers at THQ. The popularity of the game series led to them being "adopted" into the official canon by Games Workshop.


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Yeah, it's not the first time stuff from a franchised computer game made it into a codex. The Tau pathfinder rail rifle was created in _Fire Warrior_ to give Kais some anti SM fire power.


----------



## theurge33 (Apr 4, 2012)

Some writing suggests they are the decendants of the loyal 1000 sons..


----------



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I feel they are more likely loyalist descendents of the word bearers.


----------



## cragnes417 (Jul 22, 2010)

I believe they are a construct of the game as I think I remember a long time ago the developers of the game originally wanted the blood angels but they changed it to them not sure if its fully true though


----------



## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

To echo what others have said, Blood Ravens were created for the game. 

I have heard the rumors that originally the game was going to be blood angels but GW didn't agree to let them use them. 

Speculation is they are Thousand Sons geneseed but no real proof.


----------



## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

I always thought they were briefly mentioned only by name before DOW but can't find proof. It has been hinted at them being 1k sons, one of the companies (?) symbol was the same.

P.S. Ignore Lux.


----------



## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

What I have heard was they weren't loyal 1k Sons but created a a successor like chapter using the geneseed.


----------



## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

djinn24 said:


> What I have heard was they weren't loyal 1k Sons but created a a successor like chapter using the geneseed.


It doesn't explain the similar colors and emblem if so then, that's some divine coincidence then.


----------



## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Similarities is still not any form of proof and it's all still rumor. It's all purely speculation and probably will be that way forever.


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

djinn24 said:


> It's all purely speculation and probably will be that way forever.


I'm not so sure. Considering the BL authors are already geared up to do a Scouring series I'd say all the visions we've seen of ravens with blood dripping from their wings and all that are just setting us up to see the founding of a new, mysterious, psyker heavy chapter post Heresy.


----------



## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Awesome if they do, it would be great to read. Which authors?


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Abnett, ADB, McNeill and French all talked about it at the BL event in Dublin in June, French and ADB being particularly enthusiastic about it. They believe there's way too much material to be resolved to just end it with the Empy ascending the golden toilet.


----------



## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

I've always enjoyed the Blood Ravens as a chapter given their fleet based nature, mysterious background, and the psyker element... although I've yet to see that play out in more than nominal fashion.

One main strike against the Blood Ravens being a descendent of the Thousand Sons, in whatever way BL would imagine that to happen, is the utter lack of mention of the flesh-change happening in the Ravens. The only gene-seed mutation ever mentioned is in the Goto novel who's name I forget, and that's just a hand on a new but mature recruit, without the explosive baloon-like mutation described in A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns. The Emperor and Magnus both failed at finding a solution outside of Tzeench, so I doubt anyone from the post-Heresy Imperium did, then didn't hang around to solve other gene-seed mutations.


----------



## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

It used to be that, whenever I thought of Space Marines, I thought of Blood Ravens. Now the same thing happens whenever I think of kleptomania.


----------



## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

To me the 1K sons always got the short end of the stick. 

They were loyal up until the point Russ got tricked into attacking them. Having the Blood ravens become descendants or them even at least gives them some measure of solice.


----------



## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Weren't the mutations being caused by Tzeenche to encourage Magnus?

Good to hear some big names are wanting to expand this story line.


----------



## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> The only gene-seed mutation ever mentioned is in the Goto novel who's name I forget, and that's just a hand on a new but mature recruit


That would be Scout Ckrius, and that was more down the forced speed of the implantation process than anything else


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

They did have an Index Astartes article written about them. I don't remember whether it came out before the games however. It may have been released concurrently.


----------



## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Or maybe the Blood Ravens were somehow spawned by some insane Thousand Son's plot to ensure that in some way, shape, or form they could still aid the Imperium. That doesn't mean on a Legion scale, but Ahriman, at least in the book Exile I read -- seemed pretty intent on not exactly helping Magnus or Tzeentch.

His ideas in the Thousand Sons also seem to be guided by this belief. Mind you, its been 10,000 years and last I heard he was searching for the Black Library, so perhaps this is a little too far fetched.


----------



## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

Rems said:


> They did have an Index Astartes article written about them. I don't remember whether it came out before the games however. It may have been released concurrently.


Game was 04. IA was 07.


----------



## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

There's a reference in the new Space Marine Codex talking about how the geneseed of the Blood Ravens is a very closely guarded secret... under Inquisitorial seal. 

Seems like GW is inching toward openly acknowledging that Magnus is indeed the Primarch of the Blood Ravens.


----------



## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Should Black Library ever openly admit the Thousand Sons/Blood Ravens connection, it should make for an interesting story to see how some of them got accepted back into the imperial fold. My own guess is that it would be disparate elements of the Thousand Sons whom never were present on Prospero and thusly not following Magnus into damnation, but ending up in a situation where they aided the imperium in some crisis of a sort.

Humm, who knows, maybe we might see Thousand Sons remnants in Unremembered Empire. Things certainly seems to be comming to a head there, and Guiliman would be one of the few left with sufficient clout to revoke the Librarian edict, perhaps upon seeing how the Thousand Sons defends him against Lorgar's dark magicks, and as a reward taking them back into the imperial fold. But giving them a new name to seperate them from their damned father. 

I speculate with Guiliman doing the whole Imperium Secundus thing, he might himself take it up to revoke the librarian edict. But the Emperor never got around to counterman it, before being interred in the Golden Throne. And Guiliman thusly making it into law as he took over the reins of the Imperium post-heresy.


----------



## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

We know that theres a dark secret behind the geneseed, Anngelos said that there is in DoW2

That Eliphas was constantly referring to them as brother hints at Word Bearers or a legion closely related to the legion. The Word bearers haven't been shown to have high psykers, but we know know Magnus and Lorgar, both of whom were never close to their brothers were besties before the heresy (Magnus seems to have cordial relations with most, other than Mortarion, but none were close). Indicating a strong link with the 1K sons

Ahriman said to the Blood Ravens that they were the same. Would be really interesting if the BRs feature in the Ahriman trilogy, though his goals are pretty screwed up he still wants to rebuild a brotherhood

That a huge percentage of the Blood Ravens just went rogue can't be a good thing for their survival though

Blood Ravens were a DoW chapter, then became accepted into the official fold after one of the GW staff painted a BR army


----------



## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

Brother Lucian said:


> Should Black Library ever openly admit the Thousand Sons/Blood Ravens connection, it should make for an interesting story to see how some of them got accepted back into the imperial fold. My own guess is that it would be disparate elements of the Thousand Sons whom never were present on Prospero and thusly not following Magnus into damnation, but ending up in a situation where they aided the imperium in some crisis of a sort.


That's actually what's being implied. In the short story "Rebirth" in the Age of Darkness novel from the Horus Heresy series, Revuel Arvida, member of the Corvidae cult, survives the destruction of Prospero and is not taken along with the other Thousand Sons when they go to the Planet of Sorcerers. 

Revuel Arvida sounds a bit like Azariah Vidya, Great Father of the Blood Ravens.
The Corvidae cult were represented by a symbol of a raven's head.


----------



## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

unixknight said:


> That's actually what's being implied. In the short story "Rebirth" in the Age of Darkness novel from the Horus Heresy series, Revuel Arvida, member of the Corvidae cult, survives the destruction of Prospero and is not taken along with the other Thousand Sons when they go to the Planet of Sorcerers.
> 
> Revuel Arvida sounds a bit like Azariah Vidya, Great Father of the Blood Ravens.
> The Corvidae cult were represented by a symbol of a raven's head.


Implied is not the same as confirmed. Though Ahriman did say he knew Azariah Vidya.


----------



## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

Well that's what I mean by "inching." Of course they don't want to just come out and say it... yet. It generates a fun buzz. If they had wanted to squish that theory, this was their perfect opportunity to do so outright, as it lists several examples of successor chapters alongside their founding legion. They went out of their way to specify the Blood Ravens as one of the ones whose genetic origin is kept a secret. At the very least, GW wants this to keep going.


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Maybe everyone is right and their geneseed is a spliced version of Word Bearers and Thousand Sons. 

The main thing currently against the Thousand Sons/Blood Ravens connection is the lack of flesh change, though there are things in _Rebirth_ (and that's despite ignoring the heavy handed hint in the story's actual title) that could potentially explain this. None of the Thousand Sons in the short story have any mutation issues, but they also remark that is isn't as easy for them to draw on the power of the warp as it used to be, pre being sent away by Magnus/destruction of Prospero. The chances are that Tzeentch was boosting their power up until that point, perhaps via the tutelaries, and by feeding them power it allowed access to affect them with the flesh change. Perhaps that link between Tzeentch and the Thousand Sons not present on Propsero at the time of the Siege was broken when Magnus finally turned and the rest of the legion fell to chaos. Thus, the remaining loyalist Thousand Sons became free of the flesh change, but also weakened in terms of psychic power. The Blood Ravens do actively seek out those with psychic potential, but I think it was still in DoW2 novel (a shit novel TBH, but at least the fluff butcher Goto was nowhere near it) that mentioned that Blood Ravens librarians are in general more powerful than their counterparts in other chapters. For example a Blood Ravens Lexicanium or Codicer could generally accomplish feats it would take an Epistolary or Chief Librarian in another chapter to achieve. Maybe their geneseed gives them an extra boost. Or maybe they still have some of the old Thousand Son psychic training techniques (though they obviously don't know the origin of these), and these superior training techniques allows them to better prepare and train their psykers compared to other chapters. Their combat doctrine also seems to be very similar to the Thousand Sons of old, but this could simply be them utilising their strong points, something you'd expect of any Space Marine chapter.

Anyway, it should be noted that this is purely my own speculation on how a link between the Thousand Sons and Blood Ravens could be even remotely justified, given the history of mutation among the ranks of the Thousand Sons. Though if nothing else, the fact that the Inquisition seems so interested in keeping the origins of the Blood Ravens geneseed a secret, it is likely that it at least comes from one of the traitor legions.


----------



## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

THQ were forced to use an specially made Chapter since GW wouldn't let them ruin any of the 1st Founding Chapters fluff. They were later adopted into the Desert Raiders-book (acknowlidging them as exisiting) and had a IA written by Graham McNeill, plus added in the painting guide book/5th ed Codex if I'm not mistaken. There are many hints in the HH-series about them, but I'm leaving this old video I made about it. I know it should be updated (since the editing is crap).


----------

