# TFH, Argel Tal discussion



## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

LOTS OF SPOILERS


heh, In one of the other TFH threads up right now raider 1987 said he thinks Argel Tal will rise to demon prince soon, a light statement, more of a hope I think really.

Either way this got me thinking, because I dont think he would WANT to become a demon prince. I realized I'm not sure if people really have a choice as to whether or not they become one...

However, Its odd to me that some readers may think this because to me I felt like at his heart he was still a loyalist, he felt everything he and his legion were during after the eye of terror incident was wrong all the way through to the end of the novel. His interests seem so conflicted its ridiculous. I think this is one of the many aspects that causes us to like him, we feel sympathy for the fact that all of this "fate" is happening to him. I felt almost as helpless as the reader from being pulled around the universe by fate as Argel Tal probably did. The fact that it doesn't seem to matter what he wants things happen how they were meant to regardless.

To make things more confusing, Argel Tal also seems to make each heretical decision on his own, such as killing Vendatha and destroying the Geller fields.

So I really can't decide if he is good or bad or what, though I realize these are very abstract terms. The very last page we see he has a century of regret behind him though.

Its obvious that Argel Tal is now a HUGELY important character in the 40k universe and the horus heresy, you know, being the first heretic and all....(which I assume he is because killing vendatha was the first imperial on imperial kill?? not sure havnt read many of the other books yet.) And also being the one responsible for sending the primarchs all over the universe.

So, since he is still alive, something I didn't expect, is it safe to assume he will have further roles in the future. If we see him again any ideas as to what those roles might be? A novel on Calth if there isnt one already I suppose. Do you think he's headed down the path to becoming something ascended, or a demon prince, why or why not? Also, any comments on the strengths and weaknesses of his character, either mechanically or character development wise? Haven't seen anyone on here who _doesn't_ like him yet.

Personally I don't hope that he becomes a demon prince. I'd like to see him escape this curse, because that's how I think he feels about it.

Any ideas as to what the rest of the sentence was that Cyrene didnt get to type?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I imagine Argel Tal will end up dying by the end of the HH series, I see him as being set up to be one of the significant traitors to be killed later on in the saga (just like Sevatar the Night Lords 1st Captain).

Whilst only Aaron can really say otherwise I sincerely doubt he'll become a Daemon Prince.


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## Sacred Feth (Jan 13, 2011)

I don't know the thread in particular, but I recall ADB saying that Argel Tal is on the way to becoming the first Chaos Marine to ascend to Daemonhood. I'll see if I can find it.

EDIT, there you go. Click the quote to go to the source:





Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Argel Tal is on the way to becoming the first Daemon Prince of the Chaos Marines


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Well then I'm glad I added the words '_Unless Aaron says otherwise_' :laugh:


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## sakura (Jan 24, 2011)

Just because he's on his way doesn't mean he will get there.
Maybe he'll exorcise the demon and become enlightened to the nature of chaos?


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

sakura said:


> Just because he's on his way doesn't mean he will get there.
> Maybe he'll exorcise the demon and become enlightened to the nature of chaos?


He'll wuss out middle way?, I sincerely hope not.

Argel Tal will die, its been predicted in the books and ADB has even said that he doesn't survive the Heresy. Many characters don't, like First Captain Sevatar who also is confirmed to die at some point. Its quite obvious how Argel Tal will die though, 'In the shadow of great wings.', Sanguinius will kill him at the Eternity Gate.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> Its quite obvious how Argel Tal will die though, 'In the shadow of great wings.', Sanguinius will kill him at the Eternity Gate.


Yeah I can definitely see that happening. On a side note, Corax is much more badass than I thought


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## Worldkiller (Jun 16, 2010)

I think "In the shadow of great wings" could mean anything really, like the large (a word that the word great can also mean) wings of a building that he just happens to be in the shadow of. So i don't think it necessarily means Sanguinius will kill him.


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## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

I just think that he was supposed to be killed by Corax.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

raider1987 said:


> I just think that he was supposed to be killed by Corax.


Hopefully not, otherwise that would be a waste of a cool death prophecy.

I think we were supposed to presume Corax was going to kill him, not that he was going to be killed by Corax.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

Aye, suppose because Argel is a DP doesnt make him have sudden plot armour! 

Be interesting to see who/what kills him.


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## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Hopefully not, otherwise that would be a waste of a cool death prophecy.
> 
> I think we were supposed to presume Corax was going to kill him, not that he was going to be killed by Corax.


I suppose thats what the Author wants, did he dodge fate? Or could he still die under wings. Hopefully we will find out :grin:


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## HorusReborn (Nov 19, 2008)

could be under a blood thirster's wings too or a Lord of Change... Perhaps he has a moment of lucidity and sees the stupidity of what has happened. Maybe he supresses the demon that has bonded to him since the Eye of Terror. Can you be a Demon Prince and still have a change of Heart? Was Conrad Curze a traitor?? Perhaps, but from what i've been introduced to of the Night Lords, they seem to want or have a need to rectify their stupidity and erase all "errors". I dunno, I think something of the Chaos force will kill Argel Tal... his death will mean the death of his own "humanity" Maybe the demon takes over and the person putting him into his army list gives him wings and lash of submission??? Ok enough ranting and raving!


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Hell for all we know a giant Aquila statue falls on him.


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## rafunparked (Feb 2, 2008)

A-D-B has already stated either on the comments in his blog or on a earlier thread saying sanguinius will kill him. Another poster asked him if that's what would happen in spoiler tags and he commented back yes saying it works out well getting everyone to think corax was going to kill him. So we still hav argel tal for a bit longer atleast.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

Its odd to me he would give out so much information like that haha, usually it seems like authors want to keep their secrets.

I realized I still haven't figured out if people can only willingly become a demon prince or not, a question from my OP. Anyone know?

Oh, and where is his blog site? I'll see if I can find it.

edit** Is this the one your all getting your info from?: http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Hell for all we know a giant Aquila statue falls on him.


Best answer ever.



rafunparked said:


> A-D-B has already stated either on the comments in his blog or on a earlier thread saying sanguinius will kill him. Another poster asked him if that's what would happen in spoiler tags and he commented back yes saying it works out well getting everyone to think corax was going to kill him. So we still hav argel tal for a bit longer atleast.


I don't recall that exact reply, but if someone asked me in spoiler tags, and I replied in them, then it seems strange you'd say it without them here. Bad Blood Angel. Bad. No biscuit.

I do remember on Warseer someone asked me: "Does Sanguinius kill Argel Tal?" To which I replied:



"Yes." Ultimately, it's one of those things where I wanted it to be very, very obvious that 1. Here's a Heresy character that doesn't survive the war (something I dislike is how many main Chaos characters seem to be the survivors, so far). And 2. He's killed in one of the most iconic battles in the entire Warhammer 40,000 license. You know the Spartans are all going to die. You know Optimus Prime is going to die. That anticipation is part of the power of the narratives, and it's something of a historical reflection like the Heresy series could use more of, I think. As it is, pretty much every Chaos character is a 40K survivor, and I really hate that. If they all lived, Chaos wouldn't have lost the war. That's why I'm introducing characters that have this doom waiting above their heads, and I make it obvious for the reader without needing to spoil it.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

Oh well hello there aaron, didnt realize you were actually a member on here. I dont understand why GW and the other black library authors want the employees to stay away from the forums so much. The reason those dark eldar release interviews on youtube got such a positive response is because they make GW seem less of a faceless corporation. I guess its probably mostly to do with them not wanting secret stuff to get out.

heh, I can't believe I overlooked that even after you quoted me on another thread.


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## rafunparked (Feb 2, 2008)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Best answer ever.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WOW didnt expect A-D-B himself to respond to my post, very cool. Im pretty sure your right you didnt EXPLICITLY say that but made it very obvious and was just pointing that out to the others. Didn't think it needed spoiler tags since we are talking about a characters future AFTER the novel which does mean people should have atleast read the awesome book to comment. And everyone should definitely check out ADB's blog its hilarious, his hatred for star trek knows no bounds!


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

rafunparked said:


> WOW didnt expect A-D-B himself to respond to my post, very cool. Im pretty sure your right you didnt EXPLICITLY say that but made it very obvious and was just pointing that out to the others. Didn't think it needed spoiler tags since we are talking about a characters future AFTER the novel which does mean people should have atleast read the awesome book to comment. And everyone should definitely check out ADB's blog its hilarious, his hatred for star trek knows no bounds!


But the character will be in future novels so now we all know exactly how he dies.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

I dont know about _exactly_, alot of plans for characters could change in due time. I would like to see Argel TAll kill someone he actually _wants_ to kill before he dies at least haha. After thinking about it, I believe the only thing he wanted to kill in the novel was the artificial intelligence glass robot things, but he was regretful for having to take a planet by such brutal force in the first place so yeah...

I guess Aquillon, but I didnt want Aquillon to die so it wasn't as satisfying haha. Also, I need to make one of my upcoming Templar models worthy of the name Vendatha now.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

could he become Ka'Bandha. he could get such power for all he did for chaos in those early years and seeing as he did all those bad things by his own choice it could really of got the favour of khorne seeing as he was willing to kill without much thought, even someone who he called friend.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

No, Ka'Bandha is a Greater Deamon of Khorne. You can't become a greater deamon, they were never mortals. Added to that Ka'Bandha is very old judging by his status, far older than Argel Tal. And of course Ka'Bandha is busy in the Signus Cluster whilst Argel Tal is off fighting at Istvaan and Calth.


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## Pyroriffic (Feb 28, 2010)

I must admit, that for myself... I'm less bothered about how Argel Tal dies and who deals the final blow and more about the journey he takes to that point.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> No, Ka'Bandha is a Greater Deamon of Khorne. You can't become a greater deamon, they were never mortals. Added to that Ka'Bandha is very old judging by his status, far older than Argel Tal. And of course Ka'Bandha is busy in the Signus Cluster whilst Argel Tal is off fighting at Istvaan and Calth.


i agree with you there. i was just trying to find someone significant for him to turn into as all this business about him becoming a daemon seems kinda boring unless he was someone well known and powerful. unless he is gonna turn up in 40k in some manner and adb is just paving way for some back story to go along with him.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Just another fool for Sigismund to kill during the seige ^^


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> i was just trying to find someone significant for him to turn into as all this business about him becoming a daemon seems kinda boring unless he was someone well known and powerful.


How do you think individuals become well known in the first place? Argel Tal is still himself, he doesn't become a well known daemon. He himself becomes a daemon. 



Unknown Primarch said:


> unless he is gonna turn up in 40k in some manner and adb is just paving way for some back story to go along with him.


No, doesn't look like he will turn up in 40k, because he is killed during the Heresy.

However what does interest me in this regard, is how he dies. Because if he is a Daemon Prince when he is slain, he would merely be banished. Unless of course his killer bears some method by which to obliterate his essence, or the chaos gods recede their favour.



Pyroriffic said:


> I must admit, that for myself... I'm less bothered about how Argel Tal dies and who deals the final blow and more about the journey he takes to that point.


Indeed, it will be nice to see what he gets up to at Calth. 

It will also be nice to know how Sanguinius is the one to kill him if Argel Tal is co-commanding the attack on Calth. He's got a long way to go to get to Terra for Sanguinius to kill him (if indeed it happens on Terra).


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> How do you think individuals become well known in the first place? Argel Tal is still himself, he doesn't become a well known daemon. He himself becomes a daemon.


That's one of the hardest things to deal with in the Heresy series. There are plenty of characters that are just as important as the names we already know, but they get a little disrespected and considered "boring" just because they're not one of the few named Big Bad Guys 10,000 years later.

We know very few of the major events in the Heresy. We know the beginning and end, and not much else. Characters we're only meeting now are going to be major players in the Heresy and the Legions themselves. They're the ones that shape history, whether they survive or not. This where where and when we learn about those other vital characters.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> However what does interest me in this regard, is how he dies. Because if he is a Daemon Prince when he is slain, he would merely be banished. Unless of course his killer bears some method by which to obliterate his essence, or the chaos gods recede their favour.


Oh, _ho._


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> It will also be nice to know how Sanguinius is the one to kill him if Argel Tal is co-commanding the attack on Calth. He's got a long way to go to get to Terra for Sanguinius to kill him (if indeed it happens on Terra).


Sigismund not Sanguinius. Wasn't being serious either hence the '^^'. Just poking fun at the Sigimund killing all the champions bit of fluff


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> That's one of the hardest things to deal with in the Heresy series. There are plenty of characters that are just as important as the names we already know, but they get a little disrespected and considered "boring" just because they're not one of the few named Big Bad Guys 10,000 years later.
> 
> We know very few of the major events in the Heresy. We know the beginning and end, and not much else. Characters we're only meeting now are going to be major players in the Heresy and the Legions themselves. They're the ones that shape history, whether they survive or not. This where where and when we learn about those other vital characters.


That's exactly what I mean. Argel Tal has already become a big player within the Word Bearers Legion and the Heresy as a whole as of _The First Heretic_. We also know he will be co-commanding the attack on Calth and becomes the first Daemon Prince of the Legions, meaning that he is just as much of a major character as Abaddon, Eidolon, Kharn, Ahriman and others during the Heresy period (if not more so in some cases). 

I do agree with you as well in the sense that some people seem to not attribute as much importance or relevance to new characters like Argel Tal and Sevatar, simply because they won't be surviving the Heresy and are not long established characters like the others (but they will no doubt play major roles throughout the Age of Darkness). 

(Although given we don't really know what Sevatar gets up currently, well until _Age of Darkness_ is released anyway).



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Oh, _ho._


Well I don't really know how to take that... 



Angel of Blood said:


> Sigismund not Sanguinius. Wasn't being serious either hence the '^^'. Just poking fun at the Sigimund killing all the champions bit of fluff


I know, I wasn't saying it in regards to your post.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I know, I wasn't saying it in regards to your post.


Epic self face palm, i somehow missed out an entire page of this thread where people are on about Sanguinius. Sigh


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

@cote. each to their own but me personally didnt really get much interest from argel tal to be honest. maybe it was because i was expecting something abit different than what we got with TFH but i just havent got that much interest from what he will do and also knowing he is gonna get killed anyway sort of gives him a small shelf life too.
as for him turning up in 40k, i had the same idea that if he a daemon prince then he could return so its possible. if you dont wanna agree with anything i say fine. each to their own.

@adb, i get what you mean about bringing new characters into HH/40k but i sometimes get the impression that some much keeps being added in such small quantities that you end up have vast amount of skeletal lore and we are forever asking what happens with characters and events. this to me makes for alot of diluted stuff and also chance for plenty of fluff mistakes etc etc etc. you are the writer and have the power of a god, lore wise, so what you write goes but thats my opinion for what its worth. im not gonna change it to suck your ass like some do on here because they think their pally with a BL author. criticism is always helpful, asskissing aint lol.


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## HorusReborn (Nov 19, 2008)

Unknown Primarch.. even a BL author is bound within the confines of Games Workshop IP and is therefore restricted. They have to get clearance to do things that are a little obscure. No author is a god, the only god is Games Workshop. I think your criticism is a little off base and I'm curious how long you've been involved in the 40k universe, or if you understand anything about what information protection is and how stringent Games Workshop is.... I'm no ass kisser, that's for sure, but I am curious if you know what you're saying because he is, again limited in what he can do...


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> @cote. each to their own but me personally didnt really get much interest from argel tal to be honest. maybe it was because i was expecting something abit different than what we got with TFH but i just havent got that much interest from what he will do and also knowing he is gonna get killed anyway sort of gives him a small shelf life too.
> as for him turning up in 40k, i had the same idea that if he a daemon prince then he could return so its possible. if you dont wanna agree with anything i say fine. each to their own.
> 
> @adb, i get what you mean about bringing new characters into HH/40k but i sometimes get the impression that some much keeps being added in such small quantities that you end up have vast amount of skeletal lore and we are forever asking what happens with characters and events. this to me makes for alot of diluted stuff and also chance for plenty of fluff mistakes etc etc etc. you are the writer and have the power of a god, lore wise, so what you write goes but thats my opinion for what its worth. im not gonna change it to suck your ass like some do on here because they think their pally with a BL author. criticism is always helpful, asskissing aint lol.


I think enhancing the small stuff in such a vast fiction universe is awesome. You can't always focus on the 40k lore as a whole, its too big, and ADB's point is to show the 'little' guys or events that ended up making a big difference in the long run. I dont _think_ anyone asked you to change your opinion. I made this thread before I even realized he was a member on this site. Even still its _my_ opinion that he is a great writer and so I respect that. I read a lot outside of 40k novels as well, so my respect for him doesn't come from the sole fact that he works for black library. In my OP I welcomed criticism actually, but hoped it would be done in a more appropriate manner.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

One thing that I have considered and thought about, several times, since reading _The Flight of the Eisenstein_, is the banishment of Grulgor, of the Death Guard Legion. Although I dislike to digress, I hope the comparison adds to the topic of Argel Tal and future Daemonification. 

Grulgor is 'slain' on board the frigate, the _Eisenstein_, during Warp transmission. Alongside a number of resurrected serfs and Daemons. However:
- We knows that Grulgor shall return; possibly in the Heresy itself. His final words, detailing vengeance with Garro (?) say as much.
- This can be intertwinned with the currently developing theme of 'Champions of the Astartes' as I like to call it, rising to prominence amongst their parent Legions, as the Siege of Terra grinds yet closer. Sigsimund, Ahriman, Karn, Eidolon, Argel Tal and so forth.
- Jumping 10,000 years into the future, we also know Grulgor is a Daemon Prince to the patron Nurgle, and leads a warband of Death Guard and accompanying Daemons against Medusa V. 
- Additional to this, we have sources that point towards a theory in which Garro, alongside possibly Iacton Qruze, or even Garvial Loken are founders of the Grey Knights pseudo-Chapter. The Emperor's 'final defense' against the immortal servants of the Dark Gods. Garro's ascension to a state that is almost angelic in its righteousness, and Grulgor's 'ascension' to Daemonhood contrasts well. It comes full circle to support this theory of how Astartes, who were but tools of war, lost beneath the grandeur of their Primarch, have risen to humanities defiance, or destruction. Argel Tal's daemonification, Grulgor's daemonification, the founding of the Grey Knights, Sigsimund the Emperor's Champion. It all seems like it is building into a climax, and seems almost planned how Black Library don't just want Terra to be a clash between Primarch siblings, Horus and the Emperor, but also Astartes characters against each other. A brawl between differing authors characters.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed. I love the 'minor' characters and previous unknowns that are being brought into the spotlight. Iacton Qruze, for instance. He never appeared in any of the old fluff or collected visions, Abnett just made him up and others expanded on him and fleshed him out even more. Was brilliant to see him as at first, just a side line character, an old and unrespected Luna Wolf who dreams of the glory days. Then you see his is the embodiement of the old Legion and the old ways, before the fall, and in the end is pivitol in rescueing the key remembrancers and possibly the first Imperial Saint. Now he may well go on to found the Inquisition or similar. It's the little characters like this that make half the series for me.


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## Pyroriffic (Feb 28, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> It's the little characters like this that make half the series for me.


This. Very much so.

I find that's true of many books. It's the untold stories that are intriguing and which get your mind working. 'What was it that happened to [insert character here] that made them so angry/violent/irritating etc? What's their history? What makes them tick?'

With you on that one for sure. I think it's one of the signs that a world is engaging when you can allow your mind to wander through the metaphorical archives looking for answers to those questions.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> @cote. each to their own but me personally didnt really get much interest from argel tal to be honest.


Would you have been interested more if say Erebus or Kor Phaeron were the main characters of _The First Heretic_?

I think this is where you differ from most people, like others have said above its the apparent _'minor'_ characters being introduced which really enrich the Heresy lore, portray vastly different perspectives, and ultimately have a major effect on the course of the Heresy despite their short lives or _'minor'_ nature. Cyrene from _The First Heretic_ for example, who would have thought a random whore from a random planet brought to compliance by the Word Bearers would have had any sort of effect on the massive events that were to come, but she did.



Unknown Primarch said:


> maybe it was because i was expecting something abit different than what we got with TFH but i just havent got that much interest from what he will do and also knowing he is gonna get killed anyway sort of gives him a small shelf life too.


But regardless of his _'small shelf life'_ he still has a major effect on the Heresy. He was one of the Gal Vorbak, the first Astartes to venture into the Eye, witness chaos, and be influential in Lorgar's fall (and thus the fall of Horus). He plays a role on Isstvan V and co-commands the vital attack on the Ultramarines at Calth. He also becomes the first Daemon Prince of the Legions. Without knowing the exact details of what else he gets up to in the Age of Darkness we know he is a major character within the traitor Legions. Just because he doesn't survive to M41 (like too many traitor characters do), doesn't make him less important or relevant.

I agree with Aaron in this regard as well, way too many traitor characters survive the Heresy. Abaddon, Grulgor, Ahriman, Eidolon, Kharn, Typhus, Erebus, Kor Phaeron and countless others. It seems (currently) that most of the great traitor champions survive, which is not only a shame it's weird. Aaron has done a good thing by introducing major characters (Argel Tal and Sevatar) to the Heresy setting and then having them killed. Because as he said, if the traitors survived they wouldn't have lost. Hopefully more authors will follow suit, if they havn't already. 



Unknown Primarch said:


> as for him turning up in 40k, i had the same idea that if he a daemon prince then he could return so its possible. if you dont wanna agree with anything i say fine. each to their own.


Oh right, well you never said or expanded upon what you meant, so that's what I countered it. But yeah that is something which I am eager to discover as well.

EDIT:



unxpekted22 said:


> I think enhancing the small stuff in such a vast fiction universe is awesome. You can't always focus on the 40k lore as a whole, its too big, and ADB's point is to show the 'little' guys or events that ended up making a big difference in the long run. I dont _think_ anyone asked you to change your opinion. I made this thread before I even realized he was a member on this site. Even still its _my_ opinion that he is a great writer and so I respect that. I read a lot outside of 40k novels as well, so my respect for him doesn't come from the sole fact that he works for black library. In my OP I welcomed criticism actually, but hoped it would be done in a more appropriate manner.


:goodpost:

Said it better than I did.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I agree with Aaron in this regard as well, way too many traitor characters survive the Heresy. Abaddon, Grulgor, Ahriman, Eidolon, Kharn, Typhus, Erebus, Kor Phaeron and countless others. It seems (currently) that most of the great traitor champions survive, which is not only a shame it's weird. Aaron has done a good thing by introducing major characters (Argel Tal and Sevatar) to the Heresy setting and then having them killed. Because as he said, if the traitors survived they wouldn't have lost. Hopefully more authors will follow suit, if they havn't already.


It would be nice for some of the loyal legions to win in some of the next few stories (with an accompanying development of new characters) otherwise it will be the Emperor, Dorn, Garro, Loken, Qruze and Sigismund against the entire forces of chaos. :laugh:


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