# Melta - bad?



## vonklaude (May 16, 2010)

While pondering MSU SW and IG tournament lists, I started wondering if melta was bad for the game. The reason? Melta is relevant to _everything_ and it is cheap.

The typical MSU element is roughly 5-models in a dedicated transport with 2x meltagun. This unit cannot be ignored. The melta is short-range, but MSU has lots of such elements and you are not going to stop them all. Melta is assault, so once close it is the ideal gun to fire. It is AP1, with everything that entails including no FNP, and strong enough that non-eternal warriors are often not helped by having more than one wound.

The good thing about melta is that you can, cheaply, make more problems for one another. The bad thing is that it becomes ubiquitous, killing interest. I think the game might be funner if melta had some drawback, like Gets Hot, or didn't get all four of Assault, S8, AP1, +2D6 against AV. Is the issue the cost? For 5-10pts it is a hell of a deal.

Don't get me wrong - models need relevant weapons. One of the noticeable things about online games though (like SC2) is the ability to patch the rules. Shame GW doesn't do that more frequently. Is melta bad? What would make it better?


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

They are fine how they are.

And Melta isnt the "must have" special weapon.
Plasma guns can be just as nasty, and are much more effective against things like MC's and Terminators due to rapid-fire and longer range when stationary.



Just wait till every man and his dog starts running DE.
The Meltagun will seem weak compared to the DE weaponry.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

I think the main drawback to the meltagun is that you have to get within close range to use it, and isn't it within 6" of the tank you have to get in to roll an additional D6? Correct me if I am wrong though  (for SM anway)


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

All Melta (as in the type of weapon) weapons gain an extra D6, if within half of it's maximum range, IIRC. So a SM Melta firing at 6" rolls its normal D6, an extra for being 6" away, then adds +1 to the result for being AP1.

Grish

Edited: mixed up my terms :headslap:


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

WarlordKaptainGrishnak said:


> All Melta (as in the type of weapon) weapons gain +1 to the damage table, if within half of it's maximum range, IIRC.
> 
> Grish


They get +1 no matter what the range is.
The +1 is for being AP1.

They need to be within half range to get the 2D6.


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## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

Ultra hit it on the head, the drawback of Melta is you have to get within knife-fight range of a unit for it to be effective. Getting that close to the enemy means that if you flub your rolls (not unlikely, given most units have a max of 2), the Melta unit will probably die a horrible death, often at the hands of the unit they were supposed to kill. 

For this exact reason it is not the weapon of choice against Termies or MCs, because if you dont kill them you WILL be charged, and once again will die a horrible bloody death.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

But given the prevalence of mech in the gaming environment, does anyone actually take Melta with the express purpose of nuking Terminators? No, you use them to melt a hole in the side of their ride so you can drop a pie plate on them.

I think that melta is fine, but we could really use a long-range anti-tank gun that works. A Lascannon is the eponymous anti-tank "big gun" yet it's so awful it's not even funny. Stupidly overpriced at 35 points per model (give or take) which is the very cost of a rhino or chimera that you're trying to kill, you get 1 shot that only has a 50/50 chance of denting the average Main Battle Tank, and worse against heavy armour. Even if you do get through the AV, you only have a one in three chance of blowing it up, less if you only glance.

I'd happily see them either remove AP1 from Melta, or add it to Lascannon and equivalent weapons like Bright Lances. Melta has the advantage of 2D6 at half range, and "special" guns like the Railgun maintain a higher strength or template or whatever they have that makes them different.

As it stands the melta gun is so much better than a Lascannon, it's not a hard decision. Even if you're only facing Trukks or Raiders, the Autocannon is a much better weapon by virtue of its 2 shots, and costing half as much.


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

Deathscythe4722 said:


> Ultra hit it on the head, the drawback of Melta is you have to get within knife-fight range of a unit for it to be effective. Getting that close to the enemy means that if you flub your rolls (not unlikely, given most units have a max of 2), the Melta unit will probably die a horrible death, often at the hands of the unit they were supposed to kill.
> 
> For this exact reason it is not the weapon of choice against Termies or MCs, because if you dont kill them you WILL be charged, and once again will die a horrible bloody death.


More than likely you won't be shooting at a MC or TEQ from 6". Seeing as the Melta's effectiveness is the same at 6" and 12" against Infantry, with the target having an average Assault range of 6". Given if they don't shoot at you in their shooting phase and don't roll a 6 if they opt to Run then you should still be safe for your next turn...then you have to bail.

Grish


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

WarlordKaptainGrishnak said:


> More than likely you won't be shooting at a MC or TEQ from 6". Seeing as the Melta's effectiveness is the same at 6" and 12" against Infantry, with the target having an average Assault range of 6". Given if they don't shoot at you in their shooting phase and don't roll a 6 if they opt to Run then you should still be safe for your next turn...then you have to bail.
> 
> Grish


Ummmm.... they have a movement phase....


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

KingOfCheese said:


> Ummmm.... they have a movement phase....


This.
Every normal Infantry unit has an assault threat range of 12" from their position at the start of the turn.

On topic, the drawback of Melta is that it's kamikaze as all hell, you use it against a vehicle, you're effectively signing your own death warrant if you got out of your transport, you won't be ignored.

The advantage of long-range anti-tank weapons is that you aren't putting yourself in a compromising situation by killing shit with it, even if it is a bit overpriced.


On the topic of Lascannon, I think that having one on a Tactical Squad, it costs a Fire Warrior, and it's pretty effective for the safety it offers.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Id rather a Missile Launcher over a Lascannon.

Although its not quite as good against medium-AV or Terminators, it is more versatile as it can take on anti-infantry roles, not to mention the fact that they are free in a Tactical squad.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

KingOfCheese said:


> Id rather a Missile Launcher over a Lascannon.
> 
> Although its not quite as good against medium-AV or Terminators, it is more versatile as it can take on anti-infantry roles, not to mention the fact that they are free in a Tactical squad.


Very true, it does maintain the versatility of the unit, but in other ways it is less versatile.
Can't do much to 2+ saves, and has less hitting power against vehicles, a Lascannon is basically guaranteed to hurt a Rhino in some if you hit it


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

KingOfCheese said:


> Id rather a Missile Launcher over a Lascannon.
> 
> Although its not quite as good against medium-AV or Terminators, it is more versatile as it can take on anti-infantry roles, not to mention the fact that they are free in a Tactical squad.


and cheap for my long fangs:drinks:, also it is has a higher chance of killing termies in my book since it can wound multiple times in one shot


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

hippypancake said:


> and cheap for my long fangs:drinks:, also it is has a higher chance of killing termies in my book since it can wound multiple times in one shot


They have large bases, they are naturally resistant to Blast weapons.
You'll hit 2-3 of them (providing you actually hit, which we'll assume you do for simplicity's sake).
That's 1.5 wounds, 0.25 failed 2+ saves.

The Lascannon hits on 4+, wounds on 2+, and they have a 5+ invulnerable.
A 36.66% chance to kill a Terminator, with an 18.33% chance to kill one with a Thunder Hammer / Storm Shield.
Not to mention you can cause Instant Death on ICs left out in the open, even if they're wearing Terminator Armour.

So basically, against regular Terminators you'll get equal or lesser kills on average (with Frag missiles) but against TH/SS Termies you'll get equal or greater kills (assuming you hit 2-3).


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

most IC can be killed with a krak too though, I might also point out that around here nobody really uses termies anymore so it's been a while (such as the fact they are now on large bases)


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Winterous said:


> Very true, it does maintain the versatility of the unit, but in other ways it is less versatile.
> Can't do much to 2+ saves, and has less hitting power against vehicles, a Lascannon is basically guaranteed to hurt a Rhino in some if you hit it


2/3 chance to hit * 2/3 chance to penetrate * 1/3 chance to destroy

4/27 (14.8%) chance to destroy a Rhino with a Lascannon.

Lascannons are no good at anti-tank.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

KingOfCheese said:


> 2/3 chance to hit * 2/3 chance to penetrate * 1/3 chance to destroy
> 
> 4/27 (14.8%) chance to destroy a Rhino with a Lascannon.
> 
> Lascannons are no good at anti-tank.


You also have a 1/3 chance on each of those Penetrations to either Immobilise or Stun the vehicle, both of which ultimately serve a similar purpose for you, keeping the bastards away.
So we've doubled the chance of being useful right there.

And that isn't including Glances, which are 1/6 chance to get, and have a 1/3 chance of stopping the thing, so that's a further 1/18 (a 3.7% chance) of being useful, raising the overall chance to about 31.3% chance of stopping a Rhino.


Not to mention that Lascannon are significantly better than Missile Launchers against large vehicles, with a chance to Penetrade AV14, double the chance to penetrate AV13, and 1.5 X the chance to penetrate AV12.

They may not be reliable at killing tanks, but their ability to do so is significant enough for their measly cost on Tactical Squads.


They really aren't worth it on Devastators though because of the huge cost :\


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

KingOfCheese said:


> Just wait till every man and his dog starts running DE.
> The Meltagun will seem weak compared to the DE weaponry.


It's going to be hilarious if this happens because we'll start seeing more black templar blessed hull land raider armies. DE have pretty much nothing that will affect that except the heat lance, and even then 6+2d6 only averages out to 13.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

Culler said:


> It's going to be hilarious if this happens because we'll start seeing more black templar blessed hull land raider armies. DE have pretty much nothing that will affect that except the heat lance, and even then 6+2d6 only averages out to 13.


dont all "lance" weaponry reduce the AV of any vehicle to AV12 if its over 12?


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

Fallen said:


> dont all "lance" weaponry reduce the AV of any vehicle to AV12 if its over 12?


I believe that's why he pointed out "blessed hull" land raiders instead of normal ones


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## Unforgiven302 (Oct 20, 2008)

As for melta weapons being either overpowered or under priced for their stats, I think the pro's and con's balance out.
Now combi melta's are a real thorn in one's side. Sure they only fire once, but a unit of chaos terminators all with combi melta's are a nasty threat. 

As for lascannon of missile launcher, I like ML's for the flexibility they offer. This is more true when playing against hoarde or poor AV troops that are accompanied by tanks, (Orks or IG.) For anti MEQ plasma is a favorite of mine. Nor risk, no reward!


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

To answer the original title of the post...

Melta - good. 
No melta - bad.


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

Imperious Rex said:


> To answer the original title of the post...
> 
> Melta - good.
> No melta - bad.


eh...revised

Melta-good
No melta AND no plasma-bad

EDIT: BOO FUCKING YEAH! 1000 POSTS!!! (eh he sorry I was excited about that)


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Imperious Rex said:


> To answer the original title of the post...
> 
> Melta - good.
> No melta - bad.


Haha, simplicity at its best. :laugh:
Ill +rep that. :drinks:


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## vonklaude (May 16, 2010)

Imperious Rex said:


> To answer the original title of the post...
> 
> Melta - good.
> No melta - bad.


:biggrin: nice response (not really an answer!)

I guess I'm becoming concerned to see melta being spammed so heavily, and when you look at it, it is one of the cheapest specials (only flamer is cheaper) and it is relevant to nearly everything.

The 5th game potentially hits a common issue in tabletops, which is that spamming cheap relevant stuff often gives over-the-odds efficacy. There are ways I like that, and ways I do not. Melta possibly relates to ways I do not. Design-wise, it is good to have the mouse that frightens the elephant (i.e. the power-loop where a small cheap thing can threaten a big expensive thing), but balancing that loop is not easy. The big things needs to also be worth their weight, and at present it seems like they usually are not.


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## BobbyDaBlue (Oct 29, 2010)

We Need Melta! How else could we bust open all that dam IG Armor!!!! Woot for Combies!!


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

BobbyDaBlue said:


> We Need Melta! How else could we bust open all that dam IG Armor!!!! Woot for Combies!!


You play Orks, how do you have Combi-Meltas? :S


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

Winterous said:


> You play Orks, how do you have Combi-Meltas? :S



Take it easy. Orks aren't the smartest folk around...


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## Drizzt_13 (May 22, 2009)

I think melta is actually extremely good for the game because it creates a game in which maneuvering actually matters. The fact that it is one of the few actually reliable ways to kill tanks yet is also one of the shortest ranged means that we have to work hard to set up situations where we can utilize it and not kill ourselves in the process. If we could just sit back and shoot everything to pieces 40k would be boring, melta forces us to maneuver and think, which is why it is one of the cornerstones of 5th edition.


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## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

heat lance anyone? (S6+Melta+Lance=pownage!)

But ya Melta isn't the must have thing at all.....that would be boltguns(or equilavent) or pistols of any kind. The last time i used my Land raider redeemer it was destroyed (twice blown up and once wreaked) but an Assault Cannon, Birght Lance and a Railgun respectiavally (ya the strongest one only wreaked me while the others blew me up, jsut my luck) I't jsut a case of it's easy to know how to use a metla compared to other weapons so example snipers or rending as they often rely on the right situations and the luck of the dice. Also other weaposn like Lance are not only uncommon but they are also situational as a Bright Lance is actually less useful than a missile laucher agianst 12 or lower AV. (due to the missile laucher being both cheper and being mroe versitile)


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## Ascendant (Dec 11, 2008)

Another thing to keep in mind is that, in many cases melta isn't as cheap as it appears. For a tactical squad to get two melta shots, you buy tens guys plus a transport, at upwards of 225 points. Similarly, my captain's combimelta is 15 points on an already expensive model. I think the areas where melta van be frustrating is when it can be lumped on to more versatile, speedier or more expendable units. I am thinking vets in a valk.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Like all the options for special weapons melta has its place in the game. My only gripe is that plasmaguns and meltaguns should be on par price wise. Plasma pistols should also be cheaper. In the chaos codex a plasmagun/pistol is 15 and a melta is 10. the pistol has the same range as the meltagun, less strength, no AT capability and can kill the operator. Yet it costs more(ok it gives you +1 attack in cc but so does a laspistol). As for the plasmagun it has increased range and rapid fire, but the other disadvantages still apply. I would say that Meltaguns and plasmaguns/pistols should be priced the same at 10points.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

shaantitus said:


> Like all the options for special weapons melta has its place in the game. My only gripe is that plasmaguns and meltaguns should be on par price wise. Plasma pistols should also be cheaper. In the chaos codex a plasmagun/pistol is 15 and a melta is 10. the pistol has the same range as the meltagun, less strength, no AT capability and can kill the operator. Yet it costs more(ok it gives you +1 attack in cc but so does a laspistol). As for the plasmagun it has increased range and rapid fire, but the other disadvantages still apply. I would say that Meltaguns and plasmaguns/pistols should be priced the same at 10points.


The PP's price in the CSM codex was discussed not long ago in another thread, it's probably because when that codex was written, you could stand still and double-tap with a Pistol.


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

shaantitus said:


> Like all the options for special weapons melta has its place in the game. My only gripe is that plasmaguns and meltaguns should be on par price wise. Plasma pistols should also be cheaper. In the chaos codex a plasmagun/pistol is 15 and a melta is 10. the pistol has the same range as the meltagun, less strength, no AT capability and can kill the operator. Yet it costs more(ok it gives you +1 attack in cc but so does a laspistol). As for the plasmagun it has increased range and rapid fire, but the other disadvantages still apply. I would say that Meltaguns and plasmaguns/pistols should be priced the same at 10points.


That is why in the battle between melta and plasma, I will always choose melta.


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## BobbyDaBlue (Oct 29, 2010)

Winterous said:


> You play Orks, how do you have Combi-Meltas? :S





Imperious said:


> Take it easy. Orks aren't the smartest folk around...


Oh ya my second army is Nilla marines, thats where the combis come from. But yes your right I love my orks because there is no thinking involved, Its just drive drive drive drive shoot shoot shoot shoot smash smash smash smash durrrrr.......


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Threadomancy!


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

aboytervigon said:


> Threadomancy!


Seems more common nowahdays than a year or so ago.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Keep the discussion on topic guys.

Yes, we can all tell that the thread is old.
But it isn't that old, and it is still just as relevant now as it was then.


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## maomolin (May 4, 2008)

Run infantry-heavy. Kills melta-spam pretty well. Some melta is nice, plasma is still where its at though and here is why:

Gets Hot! is countered by FNP, which is in much more abundance and useful outside of negating the Gets Hot! rule.

Plasma Pistols. It doesn't gimp your base attacks and still throws out the anti-MC/AV/TEq shot, also more units can take the plasma pistols than the meltaguns.

Plasmaguns. Stationary it has double the range, getting you a round of anti-tank sooner than melta, and can do it without giving yourself up to close combat (Oh BT will rejoice with a DECENT codex to see melta in an opponents list). At close range it is still reliable, making up for strength 8 ap 1 with rapid fire.

Most vehicles do not require melta to take down (or are immune to the extra d6), looking at you Wave Serpents/ Holo-fields / Monolith / Shadow Fields / AV12 or less. 

These instances Melta doesn't help much (or at all) and plasmaguns/pistols are on par or slightly better.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

In my epxerience, melta is -very - good, so much as to eclipse other weapon choices.

Unlike plasma, it can be fired before an assault in the case of meltaguns. If put on a vehicle (like Landspeeders), its short range become almost immaterial.

And it will instant-death paladins, nobs, most T4 HQs. Most of the times I lost my Kharn were not to power fists but melta fire once his unit had been whittled down enough (usualy by *cough* Kharn himself).

Other than IG and rifleman dreads, most of the game actually occurs at close quarters, also thanks to the prevailing mech strategies. Ad while S8 + 2d6 is a killer when you get into optimal range, a plain S8 at 12 inches with a +1 on the damage chart is nothing to sneeze at if you can hit side or rear armor.


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## Caxton (Jun 15, 2010)

I agree. Melta is still fairly strong at 12 inches. I think that it is important to keep in mind the units that are getting the weapons too though. Melta kinda sucks on low BS models, and in units that cannot take redundant meltaguns. For this reason, I think melta is fairly balanced for most armies, but is VERY strong on IG veteran squads. (but hell, every army needs things that it is best at!)

To me the main problem is that not every race can really use melta...my tanks really don't fear Tau or Necrons, because without meltaguns or MC's they really have a hard time penetrating.


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## Radeb86 (Apr 2, 2011)

I love melta weapons, the best part of my lists are using my chosen with 2 melta guns and 3 flamers. Its a balance that can take out almost anything it gets near. 

I agree that plasma guns, especially plasma pistols, are very good, the range and rapid fire makes them very good weapons to have in a list. I find the decision is made by what the unit will be doing. My chosen outflank and move so melta is the choice, plus i hope to be near enough to take full advantage of the half distance rule. However, if they wont be moving then plasma guns can be really good for defense as they have the range.


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