# New World-Class Gaming Arena: Birmingham



## RetiredFlagellant (Apr 26, 2012)

We are in the planning stages to create a fantastic gaming arena in Birmingham and are running a market survey to lead the direction of our business plan. It would be truly enlightening to hear your views regarding customer service and the frustrations you have as a paying customer; we all know this hobby isn't cheap so we believe that the customer service should reflect that expense. Thank you for your time and support.

You can access the survey here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dDQ3OTVWMGNJMjlIaHU4VGFZbEM4WEE6MQ


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

Hey, this would be great. I live in Brum and could really do with another games club. 

on a side note, have you thought about advertising this at the UK Games expo in Brum next month? You could really get some interest at the expo (i have started a thread in the tournaments section on here if you want more info)

If you wanted an help with gaming arena give me a shout. 

Rev


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

Be nice to have more info on what this is all about, what's going to go on there etc, this is very vague


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

VanquisherMBT said:


> Be nice to have more info on what this is all about, what's going to go on there etc, this is very vague


Well, they are in the _planning stages_ and looking for input. Seems they would take input from gamers and hobbyists to determine the details. In fact, the OP says just that. They want the survey results to dictate how they cater to customers. I love the idea of putting the customer's wants first when designing and developing a gaming arena. If they get results that suggest the majority want 40K battles, I imagine they'll go that way, providing appropriately themed tables and terrain. "Vague" is good when starting out and looking for feedback.


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## RetiredFlagellant (Apr 26, 2012)

Thank you all for the interest and support. We are planning to cater for both fantasy and sci-fi players. Some of these boards will also have some cross-over into the other genre (say, if you wanted to fight a 40,000 battle on a board representing a feudal world) but to also make each board unique rather than rows of generic green boards with mismatched terrain. Thank you for the information Reverend; if I can push the business plan forward it might be possible to launch at the UK Games expo.


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## crabpuff (Aug 5, 2008)

Strippers, lots of strippers, nothing says customer service like strippers(only hot ones):victory:


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

crabpuff said:


> Strippers, lots of strippers, nothing says customer service like strippers(only hot ones):victory:


In 40k cos-play outfits, that would certainly bring in the punters :victory:

Depending on how big you are planning to make the place you could base it on Warhammer world; lots of game boards and a refreshments area. 

Putting refreshments on sale wouldn't cost too much, the tuck shop I run in my office made £500 *profit* last year, and that was just from me buying the stuff at the pound shop and selling it 5 or 10p less than the shop across the road (100 staff in the office to give you an idea of the market audience). 

As long as you feed the profit back into the business you won't have to pay any tax...

Anyway, like I said, if you need some help give me a shout, I have quite a bit of experience in organising events and things. 

Rev


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

I really don't wanna see strippers dressed as space marines, ogryns and ratlings thanks.

Gimme strippers dressed as German panzer captains thank you, with some strippers in French napoleonic uniforms.. skimpy ones


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I didn't know Max Mosley played 40K.


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

VanquisherMBT said:


> I really don't wanna see strippers dressed as space marines, ogryns and ratlings thanks.
> 
> Gimme strippers dressed as German panzer captains thank you, with some strippers in French napoleonic uniforms.. skimpy ones


I was thinking more Sisters of Battle :spiteful: But I bet Max would like them too


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

TheReverend said:


> I was thinking more Sisters of Battle :spiteful: But I bet Max would like them too


If its sister repentia, yes.


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## RetiredFlagellant (Apr 26, 2012)

The stripper market is over-saturated in Birmingham(so I've heard).


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## turel2 (Mar 2, 2009)

Coventry is in dire need of a place to play.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

My main interest/concern would be in having the tables mutable. While unique and interesting tables are fantastic, they are...less than ideal...for any competitive events, and these would naturally be a great way to fill the hall and turn a nice weekend's profit. As a result, I think it'd be important to have the facility to make all the tables as close to identical as can realistically be expected for whatever quantity of board that is.

Having the capacity to move them to create larger boards, for showpieces and Apocalypse games would also be fantastic, player choice is a driving factor for everyone.


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## Ultra1 (Mar 10, 2011)

if i were in your area i'd like to see a place with nice terrain. sweet terrain makes games more fun for me. my local game store is small and has a limited selection of terrain and most of it isn't painted. i don't think the owner makes enough to put the serious amounts required into getting nice terrain. you'll have to be careful though, not all people are careful with things that aren't theirs. make sure you have enough space to properly store it, make sure you label the areas so you don't have terrain all jumbled up anywhere they can find to put it. this will help keep it neat and orderly.

i'll also second selling snacks and such, my local only sells sodas and while nice, it'd be better if he sold snacks. he'd probably make a small fortune off peanut M&Ms from myself alone.

also, get starter boxes for games so that newcomers can try them out ie island of blood, black reach, warmachine starter etc. have them painted so the newbies can see how cool everything looks. 

a designated area for people to paint would also be nice, buy a couple of tall floor lamps for better light in that area.

get some really nicely painted minis and put them in a display case, this will also help with the lookers, you could let regular patrons store extremely well painted minis in the case so you didn't have to buy and paint them yourself.

well those are my thoughts on the perfect game store. hope that helps.


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

I also would like to know about the local gaming interests, is it just 40k and fantasy?, is there known to be a adequate historical gaming scene (and I don't mean flames of war, that's not historical).

How open are the people who may attend to other systems?
Will it be a mostly competetive scene?
What would be some basic rules? (i don't want to come and play against grey plastic or poorly done models, a set skill level system would be nice so people are put against equals in all things)
What's the area considered like? Easy to get to? Quiet area? Shops local to? Public toilets near or in venue?

I know that's part of what this is for, but if its being set up by gamers for gamers there should be a good idea already, if its not being set up by gamers my interest plumets to nil (gw is already staffed by people with no interest in the product)


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Only certain skill levels allowed in is both hard to enforce, and a bad concept. If some guy has an international tournament-winning list, gloats when he wins and gets moody when he loses, it's *your* fault if you play against him. It'd be a lot easier, and better, to allow any skill level to turn up, but perhaps have various sections - the problem that comes in is 'how do you define a skilled player?'

Midnight


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

"The World War Two Miniatures Game" isn't historical? Oooookay...

Vanquisher, as I'm sure you've noticed, nobody force you to play with anyone else, nor they with you. If you turn up out of the blue and no-one there has a fully painted army/wants to play against Forge World units/thinks taking 2 Voxes in one squad makes sense with no special weapons to make the good orders usable, then simply wait for someone else to play. I think *everyone *wins in that scenario.

As for your last bogus claim...Since GW employees are compelled to have armies in each of the systems, if they WERE disinterested, then I'd think that fair enough, since no-one likes to be FORCED to have a hobby...


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

It isn't hard to implement skill levels, we manage it down here easy enough by having a experienced club member track there progress, both in how much they paint/quality of paint, and how they progress in games, how much they learn, how they implement what they learn etc etc, and communicating to the other club runners on this persons progress to better help them improve

This easily avoids putting new players against experienced players (until ready) who may scare them off from the game, or an over competetive player who runs the risk of being a waac jerk

I did not say "ww2 miniatures game not historical", I suggest ellesar that if you have troubles reading forum posts and quoting what is said accurately you avoid using them, and since you have blown the rest of what I said into your fantasy realm of just being silly I will not continue to communicate with you

If our club down here can handle this, any club can.

Also good quality boards is very important, as is ALLOT of good quality diverse terrain (this is not cheap so any club must be extremely serious about commiting)


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Yes you did, that is Flames of War's tagline.

Also, 'mate', if you can't type people's names correctly, I suggest you refrain from doing it.

Easy way for a club to avoid one of their buddies being a WAAC jerk? Don't have such people in your club...Nobody likes cheaters after all, it's a simple matter to prevent them getting games.

Also, I'd say more that you talk AT people, really...


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## davespil (Apr 28, 2008)

Lets get back to the strippers...

Seriously, I think a few of the GW game boards would be good. You can arrange each of them differently and if they need to be changed its not a big deal. You should also have an area for terain where it is sorrted into different bins. Like city ruins in 1 bin, forest terrain in another. Apocalypse capability is also a must.


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

You might want more than 1 "bin" for each, we manage around 15-16 6x4 tables down here quite easily, and trees alone we could easily get through 2-3 very large boxes of them, city terrain we go through loads, and that's including allot more than just 40k and fantasy

You need ALLOT of terrain


TheKingElessar said:


> Yes you did, that is Flames of War's tagline.


Flames of war is not a WWII games, its a GW combination of rules, created by ex GW staff creating a very poor game that poorly represents WWII, its reasons like that (and the poor prices, product quality and continuous release of expensive books constantly adding stupid things to the game) that FOW is utterly forbidden down here


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

You can't have a system by which progress is kept track of when all the members are new - there ARE no veterans, NOBODY has yet played a game there.

Midnight


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

Yes you can, by talking to them, asking them to fill in some basic questions, its not hard, just asking how long they have played and style of play is enough to get a basic guide, you then work on it further by observing and talking to the players


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

There's some things called 'lies', implemented by skilled players who want to beat up baby seals.

There's also a thing called 'modesty', which can distort someone's perceptions.

Equally, 'arrogance' can end up with crap players trying to get into the top tables.

Midnight


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

Hence why you only use it as a starting point.

Think of it as a building block, it is a start, you encourage players joining to be honest, if there not it is up to other players and club runners to step in and sort it out, if someone lies you tell them, as a club organizer it is your job to tell them they are not suitable to play against the chosen opponent, and you direct them to somebody more suitable.

If a waac player is beating on an inexperienced new player, speak up and inform somebody, tell an organiser


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I think that this is on a large enough scale for the paperwork to be tedious by quizzing each and every 'customer' on their skill level. I've no idea how many people Warhammer World turns over every day, but I imagine it's in the hundreds.

Hell, if it's small scale just look at the member list for Gobstyk's on their website (man I wish I could be on that list...).

Midnight


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## Blacksword72 (Apr 23, 2012)

davespil said:


> Lets get back to the strippers...
> 
> Seriously, I think a few of the GW game boards would be good. You can arrange each of them differently and if they need to be changed its not a big deal. You should also have an area for terain where it is sorrted into different bins. Like city ruins in 1 bin, forest terrain in another. Apocalypse capability is also a must.


Strippers, reminds me, members of my gaming club, came up with the suggestion to hold a full-blown 40k game in a strip club....How unique would that be? God, my wife would kill me!!!

But seriously I agree with the above, if you your going to use the GW boards, make sure they are finished and flocked, but most importantly have them sealed with purity seal or any such thing...to many times you get minature sliding down a hill syndrome...A Large selection of terrian is a must so you can do different types mission's games that sort of thing...I don't see alot of players playing planetstrike missions much anymore and the biggest reason I have heard is because of not having the "right" type of terrain. Also a good varity of Terrian will give different game options, ie Necromuda, Warmachine, Legends of the old west ect ect ect


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

Well like I say ours manages it, and we regularly get 30-40 people, and that is actually without paperwork, but it is helped by our local FLGS store owner keeping track of customers himself and informing the club committee of them so they can be looked after properly, the paperwork is just an easier way if combining the two.

And really if you have dedicated hobbyists willing to start this sort of thing up, several people voluntering to look after this paperwork and the players should not he an issue, they should be happy to do so as it shows you want it to be a success


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Yeah Stella, you might think it's a crap game, but the fact is that it IS a WW2 game, so...

I'd also like to point out you prefer to play with over the 25% recommended terrain amount.

If a cheater is playing an inexperienced newbie as you mention, telling the teacher is not the correct approach - instead, berate the cheat openly for their unacceptable behavior.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

:goodpost:

Is it official that this guy's Stella now?

Midnight


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

I haven't once mentioned cheaters, although I dislike waac players it does not automatically equal a Cheater.

I also do not understand the extremely negative views on a simple system to try and improve the gaming experience for everyone in a club, it is a simple idea (that can certainly be extended on in greater detail), that requires work from somebody willing to put the time and effort in to help make the experience better for everyone not just themselves.

From certain peoples posts here I can only assume you play in extremely selfish, close minded communities, but just because you are burdened with that doesn't mean you should shoot down a persons idea to help.



In the end you want
1: ease of access (will it be easy to find, park near, and travel to via public transport at an affordable price)
2: surroundings (what shops would be close, what amenities are available,is the area "safe")
3: flexibility (how flexible is the club going to be to cater to gaming needs further that the 2 basics)
4: terrain (you want enough space for I would say at least 10 6x4 boards, and enough terrain to fill 30% of each, even if 30% is not used by players)
5: staff (will you have enough staff with the will to get involved, will there be a first aider?, someone to help in case of fire?, people to organise the tables before gamers arrive, people to help organize the games?, people to look after and guide new and experiences gamers?)
6: and what is the price (entry fee, food etc)


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I don't see how it can work; there's a mutual agreement to play a game, and if you agree to play against a WAAC player and lose, you can't whine about it - you've ruined his game by not playing to win, you're as much a victim as they are.

Midnight


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

VanquisherMBT said:


> I haven't once mentioned cheaters, although I dislike waac players it does not automatically equal a Cheater.


If it isn't cheating, then it isn't At All Costs, is it?

You're talking about Cheaters, or you're using a term that only rightly belongs to Cheaters to discuss Jerks - well, maybe you've noticed, but jerk-hood is partially subjective, and they exist in ALL sections of the wargaming fraternity.

As long as players adequately communicate what they desire from the game, there is no reason why every pick-up game shouldn't be a success without a need for the Gestapo Tactics you suggest.


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

It is not gestapo tactics, its a way to help people, a way to guide them and give them suggestions

If a player in the end decides to play a waac player despite you suggesting they don't, then yes it is there fault, if however they have no idea of there opponent, his skill and attitude it is the clubs fault for not helping make either player aware, they basically abandon these hobbyists.

I am not saying you forcefully make players equal play another, your guiding.

Obviously as I said some people must have shitty gaming enviroments to suggest these are gestapo tactics, or suggest a waac player is as equal a victim as a casual player they prey on.


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

Example

New player comes to club, they are nervous, quiet and timid
You people want no part to be played by the staff of this club, so for this example they have no part
Waac player notices new player
Waac player offers new player game
New player being eager and keen to play accepts
Waac player chooses a 6x4 board and sets up terrain to be in his favour because no staff were involved to do it BEFORE the club opens
New player being timid and inexperienced accepts how his superior sets the board
Players deploy
New player has a black reach + battleforce army (a generally accepted starting point)
Experienced player has purifier spam lust (a generally accepted power list)
The game begins
New player is slow to act, shows inexperienced tactics and choices and generally acts like a new player
Waac player exploits RAW to its fullest extent, exploits his list to its fullest extent and within a few turns wins
New player feels disheartened, confused and sad
Waac player...well does what they do best, gloats, boasts and acts like a cock
New player never returns, never buys more models and takes no part in wargaming
The staff taking no active role (as per certain posters obvious wishes and selfish beliefs) are oblivious to what has happened and never deal with the problem
Club fails.

BUT....at least we know, the waac player, was the actual victim in all of this.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Again, dickheads don't need to actually have a good list to be dickheads.

As for that fabricated scenario, which of us said we didn't want staff to play 'any part'? Maybe someone who wasn't me actually said that and I missed it...Midnight, you?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Got nothing, Elessar.

If the timid new player didn't have alarm bells ringing by step 6, he deserved it. Even if there are no staff, there's always a neutral third party. I've done it for when people want to deploy Ymgarl Stealers - rather than finding a piece of paper and pen, hiding the paper, etc., they just tell me which terrain the unit's in. If your opponent's a cock, he'll almost certainly show that he's a cock before the game starts. Thus, alarm bells start before the game's even started - just refuse the game. Generally, you can tell a competitive player by their deployment - tight formations opposite refused flanks are a good example for tournament players, Land Raiders deployed sideways is a good jerk-detector.

Midnight


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

The fact you seem utterly against the idea of staff helping the players and leaving it all to its own devices shows to me you want them to have no active role in organising games

The fact you both are dead set against a very simple idea to try and help also reinforces my belief in this

The fact one of you actually has the audacity to say that a waac player could be a victim further reinforces this.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

You are deliberately misunderstanding us.

It is not the job of the staff to arrange games for players, or to police players' skill levels. It is the responsibility of PLAYERS to deal with undesirable elements within their group. If you have such a noobslayer try to beat on the inexperienced, then the other players should take him to one side and tell him such behaviour is unacceptable. If he persists in his bullying, then the players should ensure he has a lot more difficulty getting games, intervening if they see him behave inappropriately.

Eventually the tool will learn that he needs to learn to take others' feelings into account, and basically play nice with others - it's a lesson EVERYONE should learn, at some stage in their lives...the number who haven't, especially in our niche hobby, depresses the hell out of me.


Staff members should NEVER prejudice things by taking sides.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

VanquisherMBT said:


> The fact you seem utterly against the idea of staff helping the players and leaving it all to its own devices shows to me you want them to have no active role in organising games


Quote me or Elessar as saying that me don't want staff to be helpful. Quote me.



VanquisherMBT said:


> The fact you both are dead set against a very simple idea to try and help also reinforces my belief in this


It's a flawed idea though - it's a trust-based system that's trying to get rid of scumbags, and scumbags are universally untrustworthy.



VanquisherMBT said:


> The fact one of you actually has the audacity to say that a waac player could be a victim further reinforces this.


I'm not alone. Here's a whole page explaining it in more detail. I'm sure that TKE will vouch for both my view, and on the validity of 3++. For those who don't want to read all that text, here's the important bit:



> OK, so how does this compare to your local game store, then? Suppose you the player in the above example want to attend the local game shop. You show up, and check the window - nowhere does it say whether people there drink beers, play with painted armies, are rules lawyers or use power lists or play casually or what, etc. You walk in, and see a bunch of powerful unpainted armies on the tables and people barking and laughing and competing intensely. You walk into the store further, and ask someone for a game. A giant, stinky douchey guy walks up and goes "WHAT'S YOUR ARMY?!?!" "Why, I play footdar! (sorry, dudes, I couldn't help myself)" and he replies with a big grin and "haha, sure I'll play a game, lol, do you mind if I proxy some stuff??" When you say "proxy, what's that?" he laughs in your face.
> 
> Aimlessly, starting to feel a little peeved at this dude, you regardless set up on the table ... BUT WAIT, "WE HAVE TO ROLL FOR SIDES FIRST MAN, AND THEN TERRAIN AND MISSIONS AND SHIT, RAR" ... it gets worse and worse. You keep playing.
> 
> ...


Midnight


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

TheReverend said:


> In 40k cos-play outfits, that would certainly bring in the punters :victory:
> 
> Depending on how big you are planning to make the place you could base it on Warhammer world; lots of game boards and a refreshments area.
> 
> ...


Perhaps not strippers but something like what we have in the US. Take a look around the web for D20 Girls. They are a group of female gamers(shocking I know) who promote the positive aspects of various game systems and females being involved. They are there to have fun and help everyone else have fun too.



VanquisherMBT said:


> I really don't wanna see strippers dressed as space marines, ogryns and ratlings thanks.
> 
> Gimme strippers dressed as German panzer captains thank you, with some strippers in French napoleonic uniforms.. skimpy ones


That's just what I want when playing a wargame. A dominatrix cracking a whip next to me.:fool:



RetiredFlagellant said:


> The stripper market is over-saturated in Birmingham(so I've heard).


Try for something not so sexually based. The D20 Girls can't be a purely American concept. You get women there, under any context, including nerdettes coming to game, and guy nerds will show up because guys like interacting with women.



Ultra1 said:


> if i were in your area i'd like to see a place with nice terrain. sweet terrain makes games more fun for me. my local game store is small and has a limited selection of terrain and most of it isn't painted. i don't think the owner makes enough to put the serious amounts required into getting nice terrain. you'll have to be careful though, not all people are careful with things that aren't theirs. make sure you have enough space to properly store it, make sure you label the areas so you don't have terrain all jumbled up anywhere they can find to put it. this will help keep it neat and orderly.
> 
> i'll also second selling snacks and such, my local only sells sodas and while nice, it'd be better if he sold snacks. he'd probably make a small fortune off peanut M&Ms from myself alone.
> 
> ...


Terrain is difficult for a starting club as it gets expensive quick. My gaming store has been around long enough that they have donated terrain. It's not all great but we can set the tables up in dynamic ways if we choose. Some people also choose to bring their own terrain pieces to add in for the day. The store owners do frequently set the tables but sometimes an early arriving player will help. But that player, being a good sport will not choose the table played on for any of their games.



VanquisherMBT said:


> I also would like to know about the local gaming interests, is it just 40k and fantasy?, is there known to be a adequate historical gaming scene (and I don't mean flames of war, that's not historical).
> 
> How open are the people who may attend to other systems?
> Will it be a mostly competetive scene?
> ...


Keeping track of skill level, especially when it comes to painting is very elitest of you. You may have time to make all your minis pretty but some of us work and have little time to paint. So yes, parts of my armies are still grey. That says nothing of my painting skill, just the time I have. Furthermore, painting and gaming skill is subjective. Half the people I show a model to like it, the other half hate it. Guess I'm a mediocre painter because personal preference for certain colors and schemes and "what I would've done with that" play not part in this. As for gaming skill. If I win every game I play because all my opponents have made fun lists to try things out because they want to see how they work, does that make me a better player than somebody who lost every game because all his opponents brought power lists? So excluding or categorizing players just creates an elitest environment that is actually intimidating to new players because they are being judged right away, possibly by what army they choose to play.



VanquisherMBT said:


> Flames of war is not a WWII games, its a GW combination of rules, created by ex GW staff creating a very poor game that poorly represents WWII, its reasons like that (and the poor prices, product quality and continuous release of expensive books constantly adding stupid things to the game) that FOW is utterly forbidden down here


Elitest. Good thing everyone you play with is just like you.



MidnightSun said:


> :goodpost:
> 
> Is it official that this guy's Stella now?
> 
> Midnight


I prefer WAngmar.



VanquisherMBT said:


> It is not gestapo tactics, its a way to help people, a way to guide them and give them suggestions
> 
> If a player in the end decides to play a waac player despite you suggesting they don't, then yes it is there fault, if however they have no idea of there opponent, his skill and attitude it is the clubs fault for not helping make either player aware, they basically abandon these hobbyists.
> 
> ...


That's your first post that did not imply this was forced upon all participates. Perhaps that is the reason for hostility, not the idea itself. People like their free will. You can suggest I do something all you want, but in the end, I'll do what I feel like doing. And, most of the players I know WILL play differently when facing a new and especially a first time player. Granted, we must be friendlier or more casual, certainly less competitive than your group. The point is to teach a new player, let them learn and have fun. By your system, if I take a soft list to teach a new player who has basic units and I loose, my ranking goes down. Nevermind that I'm ensuring they come back and improve their tactics.



VanquisherMBT said:


> Example
> 
> New player comes to club, they are nervous, quiet and timid
> You people want no part to be played by the staff of this club, so for this example they have no part
> ...


Most of the players I know would step in and help the new player in that situation. If a known power/waac player is at my store and we see a new player arrive, several of us are going to get between those two players to avoid the situation. Where I play, there is usually only 1 or 2 staff working and if they took time to run our gaming group for us, it would hurt their sales and we could wind up with no place to play when the store closed. They trust us to run it and keep things civilized as most of us are adults(at least 18) and we can handle a situation maturely. We have no ranking system and most come for a fun game and a chance to bullshit with people who have similar interests. Some are more competitive but we know who they are and help new players learn how each of us plays. Ohh, and unpainted models are just as welcome as world-class painted ones, WAngmar.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

My post was MUCH more concise.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

But mine was still better. Dan's was just excessive.

Midnight


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

I'm covering more than just WAngmar though. There were posts I missed because of work that I wanted to touch on. I want to help the gaming arena in addition to burying him neck deep in shit. Maybe my frustration got the better of me.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Go calm down and fix your joke detector 

Midnight


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

Fuck me how many times must I repeat myself

1: king: no it is not the job if staff to organise every game, that is why I never said that, I said it is there job to HELP organise games, this us especially so if there is no online ability for people, they will look for guidance, especially new players

2: king: waac players would be welcome, the point is for staff to help guide these players to like minded players, same with begginers, players should stick to the games they are playing and leave it to the staff unless needed if asked for, it is why they are there and to enforce penalties or punishments while remaining impartial, players usually cannot do this because they only care about there game and there opinions vary too much, so stay out if it if report it to staff (just like how a forum us run)

3: midnight: check kings last post

4: midnight: I never said it was a perfect system, I said IT'S A BUILDING BLOCK, it is up to the staff to observe to gain further information to help in the future to GUIDE PLAYERS.

5: midnight: 3++ remains I see to be as exaggerated as always, the signs are not always that obvious to new players, even to us older players, that is the point in staff getting to know the gamers to help people.

6an: painting skill has nothing to do with elitism, keeping track of it and encouraging players to improve and paint more means they get more done, but it can help in some gaming situations as I have seen allot of new players put off playing there grey plastic against GD quality armies, its just another way staff silently observe to help.

7an: if you took a soft list to help a new player your ranking would not go down, because as I keep saying the staff would be observing, they see you helping they praise you and if you constantly help you become relied upon as a gamer who can help, but also be competetive when required, you get the best of both worlds

8an: as I said its not up to players to get involved, that is the point in the staff, they step in and instead if being vigilantes as they are want to do (and allot truly believe they are even outside in the real world) you report the problem to the staff who are there to deal with it in a none disruptive manner, perhaps pulling them to one side, having a quiet word, and maybe directing both players to mire suitable opponents


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

VanquisherMBT said:


> Fuck me how many times must I repeat myself


You can repeat yourself as many times as you like, it's still tripe.



VanquisherMBT said:


> 3: midnight: check kings last post


Last time I checked, you were the minority fending off the arguments of three people and TKE was on my side.



VanquisherMBT said:


> 4: midnight: I never said it was a perfect system, I said IT'S A BUILDING BLOCK, it is up to the staff to observe to gain further information to help in the future to GUIDE PLAYERS.


No, it's up to the players; you can't expect staff to pair you up against people you'll enjoy playing against, it's unreasonable. Just because you have one in your community doesn't mean you can expect it elsewhere.



VanquisherMBT said:


> 5: midnight: 3++ remains I see to be as exaggerated as always, the signs are not always that obvious to new players, even to us older players, that is the point in staff getting to know the gamers to help people.


They are obvious, in your example you said that the guy sets up the terrain in his favour. It doesn't take a genius to work out that the terrain's unbalanced, and it's not hard to ask a third party to set it up for you if you have any doubts.

Midnight


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

A few thoughts here.

This guy can't be Stella. He hasn't mentioned any of Stella's pet topics nor has this thread included tirades on the himalaya sized awfulness of GW.

Painting in and of itself shouldn't be elitist. I don't know anyone who prefers the look of a plastic or primer army.

And that excerpt from 3++ sounds disturbingly like blaming the victim. Like the novice player is being mistreated and is at fault for being mistreated. Not everyone who plays like an ass is clearly an ass at first meeting. 

At the flgs I used play at, the long term members actively encouraged players to ostracize people who couldn't be civil, and were proactive about warning new players about them. "That guy you're about to play, yeah he's prone to tantrums and throwing figures. And he's none too particular about whose figures he throws."

It takes a village as they say, in this case to maintain a positive gaming atmosphere.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Kreuger said:


> This guy can't be Stella. He hasn't mentioned any of Stella's pet topics nor has this thread included tirades on the himalaya sized awfulness of GW.


It's a joke, Kreuger. A joke.



Kreuger said:


> And that excerpt from 3++ sounds disturbingly like blaming the victim. Like the novice player is being mistreated and is at fault for being mistreated. Not everyone who plays like an ass is clearly an ass at first meeting.


It is blaming the victim - he is the one in the wrong for complaining when he fails to realise the blatantly obvious signs the other guy is giving him that he's in it for the win. A competitive player asking for a game and going against the local baby seal with crappy army list and little rules knowedge is also a victim - he's not enjoying the game because he doesn't want an easy win. It's not always the 'soft' players who are the victims - hardcore dudes can feel it too.



Kreuger said:


> At the flgs I used play at, the long term members actively encouraged players to ostracize people who couldn't be civil, and were proactive about warning new players about them. "That guy you're about to play, yeah he's prone to tantrums and throwing figures. And he's none too particular about whose figures he throws."


This is still a debate about a new club, so this isn't really an option, as I and TKE have been saying for a page and a half.



Kreuger said:


> It takes a village as they say, in this case to maintain a positive gaming atmosphere.


I certainly agree with you - it takes two people to play a game of 40k, after all, and if one person doesn't enjoy it the game has been a bit of a failure. Even if you curb stomp somebody, being civil and jocular about it often relieves the tension, I've found, and you can help someone enjoy a game that they've lost as well as won. My best game ever was a loss.

Midnight


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## Helicon One (Mar 9, 2012)

Just fyi, if I go to a new club and there's a guy filling in a god damn questionnaire about my gaming skill levels I'm going to turn around and walk straight out again.


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

Helicon One said:


> Just fyi, if I go to a new club and there's a guy filling in a god damn questionnaire about my gaming skill levels I'm going to turn around and walk straight out again.


And you would be right to do so, because my whole idea is that YOU fill it in so that you can be directed to players of equal skill SHOULD YOU SO WISH to help organise games that could be considered more balanced and of better benefit to you, it would be YOUR CHOICE TO AGREE OR NOT, nobody is forcing you, its a helpful little aid.

It could also be useful in directing you to players who play other systems
"hi I have my prussian dystopian wars fleet, does anyone here play the system?
*staff checks paperwork* "indeed, come with me and I can introduce you to 2 guys we have who play it"
"oh wow cheers"

Unfortunately some people seem to think the whole idea is so your life and gaming practice can be controlled by outside influence completely


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## pantat (May 15, 2011)

Unfortunately a similar situation happened to me the first time I went to a gaming club when I was first getting back into the hobby, whereby I chose to play the only guy who was free (first sign) and he was sat with about 5 hobby cases with him. Needless to say I got caned in gaming terms (twice) but he wasn't actually a complete dick about it, he was pointing things out to me. Admittedly, looking back, he wasn't playing an 'uber list' considering it was grey knights, but there was no way I was anywhere near capable of beating him back then. He just played quite well tactically when I was still getting to grips with 5ed. I feel that in the long term that situation has actually helped my game because I know what I never want to turn into and I made a massive point of memorising the rules afterwards.

Yes, it isn't a situation I would like to go through again or inflict on someone else, but actually it spurred me on to improve tactically and not turn super competitive. However, it is part of my character to come out of situations and experiences like that and taking things on board and using that to push forward. However yes there are lots of people where that could easily have put the off the hobby and the club..


Perhaps instead of a questionnaire there should be an audition game to join the club? :laugh:k:


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

VanquisherMBT said:


> And you would be right to do so, because my whole idea is that YOU fill it in so that you can be directed to players of equal skill SHOULD YOU SO WISH to help organise games that could be considered more balanced and of better benefit to you, it would be YOUR CHOICE TO AGREE OR NOT, nobody is forcing you, its a helpful little aid.


So you don't even have to fill it in if you don't want to? Doesn't that defeat the point of having it in the first place or is it just me?



VanquisherMBT said:


> It could also be useful in directing you to players who play other systems
> "hi I have my prussian dystopian wars fleet, does anyone here play the system?
> *staff checks paperwork* "indeed, come with me and I can introduce you to 2 guys we have who play it"
> "oh wow cheers"


You don't need to go through a whole 'is this guy competitive or not' malarky for that. Just ask what armies they play when they turn up, and then put their name and army into a database. Just 'Chaos' or 'Grey Knights' or 'Khador' or 'Orboros' etc. , you don't need to post up lists or what the person's like.

You don't need staff to find you some gaming buddies - you should be able to do that yourself.



VanquisherMBT said:


> Unfortunately some people seem to think the whole idea is so your life and gaming practice can be controlled by outside influence completely


Who are these people? I don't think I ever said anything about signing a questionnaire equating to someone controlling my life, or indeed about the system being based upon the staff 'controlling my gaming practice'. TKE? Dan?

Midnight


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Back to the point - i' recommend checking out Maelstrum games over in Nottingham - they have a really good set up with a large gamng area, bar and store, I think Wayland may be going a similar direction.


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> So you don't even have to fill it in if you don't want to? Doesn't that defeat the point of having it in the first place or is it just me?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1: its part of the registration form so it would be filled in anyway
2: yes you can see what armies they play, but it helps you avoid certain types of play, so you could have
Bob: casual
Mike: competetive/casual
Jim: competitive
Now that means a casual player knows he can play bob or mike, and the staff can guide a player who knows neither to them, while a competitive gamer can post mike or Jim and also be directed to them, its called H E L P I N G.
3: why are you so fixated on translating my statement of "it helps the staff guide you in the right direction SHOULD YOU DO WISH" into "the staff WILL AND MUST organise your games and there decision is final"

When you register for a club, your putting your name, address, phone number any medical issues you have on a piece of paper, does it really cause you so much grief and grind your gears so much to write down what gaming systems you play, and if you competitive or casual, just to be used as a tool IF YOU SO WISH, to direct players of similar interest to you?, does it personally offend you so much that this info may be used to find you a new gaming buddy?
What if somebody was organising a tournament and you had no idea about it for whatever reason, don't you think this info could also be used to inform you?


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Maybe they could do videos instead?

"My name is Bob, I'm into casual games of 40k. I enjoy long walks on the beach and my favourite animal is a dolphin. Looking for like-minded gamers interested in 2000pt matches and possibly more..."


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Varakir said:


> Maybe they could do videos instead?
> 
> "My name is Bob, I'm into casual games of 40k. I enjoy long walks on the beach and my favourite animal is a dolphin. Looking for like-minded gamers interested in 2000pt matches and possibly more..."


Lol

"Hi Bob, you sound cute...I too like 40k and long walks - sometimes at the same time! If I pretend to be a dolphin, will you grab my fin and ride the waves with me?"


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## Helicon One (Mar 9, 2012)

VanquisherMBT said:


> And you would be right to do so, because my whole idea is that YOU fill it in so that you can be directed to players of equal skill SHOULD YOU SO WISH to help organise games that could be considered more balanced and of better benefit to you, it would be YOUR CHOICE TO AGREE OR NOT, nobody is forcing you, its a helpful little aid.


To quote you from earlier in the thread:


VanquisherMBT said:


> It isn't hard to implement skill levels, we manage it down here easy enough by having a experienced club member track there progress, both in how much they paint/quality of paint, and how they progress in games, how much they learn, how they implement what they learn etc etc, and communicating to the other club runners on this persons progress to better help them improve


Running some kind of wargaming Stasi keeping files on your members to track various metrics and determine how they fit into the hierarchy of the club is, frankly, a little creepy and weird, even by the standards of wargamers.

That aside, you seem to be expecting that you'll have so many gamers flocking to your club that you'll be in a position to divide them up into all these subcategories based on skill levels and preferred gaming systems and gaming attitude. The majority of games clubs I've been involved with barely had enough players of all skill levels to cover one system (which usually ends up being 40K), never mind a whole range, and while Birmingham isn't exactly short on gamers, its not exactly short on existing clubs for them to play in. What exactly is going to attract in these diverse crowds of excited gamers to your club and away from their existing gaming groups?

Your optimism is commendable, but it seems rather like you're deciding on what colour wallpaper to put up in the spare bedroom before the house is even built yet. If you manage to pull off some massive coup and every gamer in Birmingham shows up to play, then great, but all these plans and subdivisions don't mean jack if gaming night rolls around and you only have three people show up.


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

If gaming night rolls up and 3 people show up then yes the system is a waste in this situation

If next club 20-30 people show up and 10 of them are brand new and never been here and play a mix of 40k, fantasy and maybe magic the gathering or something you can then direct them to either
1: the club staff member in charge of those individual system (useful for those who are literally brand new to any of the systems) 
or 2: to individual gamers
or if they want they can say "nah its ok I'll ask around"

That's hardly "creepy"


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Maybe you should give us the name of your club so the OP can contact them for some tips


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

bitsandkits said:


> Maybe you should give us the name of your club so the OP can contact them for some tips


He has been via PM


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Players should be doing that themselves, it shouldn't be up to staff to hold your hand.

Some of us possess social skills.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

VanquisherMBT said:


> 6an: painting skill has nothing to do with elitism, keeping track of it and encouraging players to improve and paint more means they get more done, but it can help in some gaming situations as I have seen allot of new players put off playing there grey plastic against GD quality armies, its just another way staff silently observe to help.
> 
> Painting skill on it's own is not elitist; it was the context of your post as I have qouted below. Players being nervous about their painting ability is why my group advertises that we don't care if you don't paint. So long as it's assembled you can play. Some people would rather just play and not paint. People who want help can ask.
> 
> ...





VanquisherMBT said:


> What would be some basic rules? (i don't want to come and play against grey plastic or poorly done models, a set skill level system would be nice so people are put against equals in all things)


So just because you don't like unpainted or even poorly painted models, you'd refuse to play somebody with them. That's what is elitist. Painting certain models is also more difficult than others, so ranking equals is difficult across armies.



bitsandkits said:


> Maybe you should give us the name of your club so the OP can contact them for some tips


I don't think he wants to share with us. Must be afraid we'd waste our time, energy and money going down there to personally kick him in the stones.



TheKingElessar said:


> Players should be doing that themselves, it shouldn't be up to staff to hold your hand.
> 
> Some of us possess social skills.


Thank you!


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## VanquisherMBT (Apr 18, 2012)

TheKingElessar said:


> Players should be doing that themselves, it shouldn't be up to staff to hold your hand.
> 
> Some of us possess social skills.


And allot don't, not everyone is confident enough to ask for games, especially new players or nervous players, or perhaps players with difficulties

Or are you going to tell me they don't exist either, or its all there fault or because of planet alinement its not an issue

And archon stop acting like a complete cock with the kick in stones comment, its pathetic when gamers say pathetic things like that, you would NOT be man enough to do it, and neither would anybody else, and if you want to do it just because I want to help in some way then you are the most pathetic inbred group of people I know.

I think I've seen the problem, everyone here is assuming a gaming group us entirely made up of experienced, adult or older teens who are socially adept, si basically none of you live in the real world
You don't want an easy system to help find new gamers that is basically optional
You don't want new nervous gamers to join in
You want shy timid people to be left alone in a corner
You don't want people to improve


It can work, especially in a new enviroment, we have the same down here although its all in peoples heads, but that's because the club has been going for donkeys years
We have a staffer who looks after all the new bloods
We have seperate staff who look after the 40k players and fantasy players
We have staff that look after the historical and alternative games

When a new person joins the group they are directed to these staff and they talk to them and gauge who best to put them up against

It's Jo different, just without the paper, but that's because we've done it for years, with no complaints from the 30-40 even 50 people who are regular


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I *DO* wish you'd stop putting words in our mouths Stella.

If someone comes in and makes no effort to speak to people, then the gregarious ones of the group should make the effort to draw them in - filing that, the staff should indeed get involved DOING WHAT GW STAFF DO THAT SO MANY PEOPLE ONLINE *HATE*.

It should not be their default, and staff should not be *looking *to interfere - people come out of their shells when they're ready, just get them involved, having a laugh, making friends. Gaming can come later.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

We-ell this got heated fast.

On topic, I consider the following to be key parts of a good club:

- Have somewhere to buy drinks (alcohol optional, soft drinks mandatory), snacks and possibly food (even if it's just a take out next door - consider asking for a discount if you order in bulk for events, most places will do it)

- Have a large number of tables, ideally 12+, in a variety of colours (snow, sand, grass, urban etc)

- Have a decent quantity of terrain with a mix of area, ruins and LoS blocking pieces

- Have an organised method of storing the terrain so that it doesn't get damaged and is easy to find

- advertise anywhere you can, so there is always a trickle of new people joining

That's about it really.


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## Truefaith (Oct 11, 2009)

IF I walked into a store and always had to play someone of comparable skill lvl how would I ever get better?

I love playing against better players, I have played from Toledo OH to Tampa FL, and after every match win or lose be and my opp almost always talk about what either of us could have done differently or better...

This thread was about a STORE, not a CLUB. The Store wants to know what people want from a STORE/ARENA, some of the issues being tossed around in this thread maybe solved if you distinguished the 2. 

What I look for in a Store is open space and designated spaces. Meaning, typically in the USA we have Card Floppers and Miniature gamers playing in the same store. I like to see an area and set of tables for each that are separate and appropriate for the match (card tables for Card games, 6x4 for Minis).

Also I would like to see a variety of terrain multiple types/scenery also varying sizes. So that it could be used in 40k, Fantasy, Malifaux, Warmahordes. The varying sizes are important for this because the 3x3 or 4x4 skirmish games want lots of terrain but smaller base sizes, imo.

Also as said before, drinks and snack are a money maker. Specially if you enforce no outside drinks or snacks. This way you can mitigate the 64oz Big Gulp falling over and soaking the carpet... cause you only sell bottles with screw on caps... You could still allow carry out meals in store, but not drinks. 

The final thing I love seeing is product. Lots and Lots of product, blisters, boxes, bits, everything related to the major hobbies in the area. I am much more inclined to buy something if there is more to see, "hey look they have a xxx, hmm if im getting this i need that to go with it or might as well get some of those..." 

Just some ideas on a game store...


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

People might hate me for this, but I like your general idea vanquisher.

When I started I had a very hard time finding people to play, I can't talk to people easily and find allot of people don't want to approach me, I've never had much help with this so frequently found myself not playing, or playing some very unpleasant people.

I still have this problem today and it is depressing, so I would love this kind of help and interaction, if you could can you PM me the club you go to as well.

So having a little system where somebody could help me find a game until my confidence grows and I know people better would be amazing as hopefully I would get to fight people like me gaming wise.

So top idea, I really like it, great for us shy people.

=^.^=


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

Can we all chill out and get back to the strippers idea?... I know we already have 16 strip clubs in Birmingham but one more wouldn't hurt 

As for gamping boards, to begin with you could just use sheets of ply with grass mats glued on, there are at least two railway hobby shops in Birmingham that sell grass matting and a whole host of other terrain (they had 12 trees for £18 this weekend which is a bargain!!)


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Sakura_ninja said:


> People might hate me for this, but I like your general idea vanquisher.
> 
> When I started I had a very hard time finding people to play, I can't talk to people easily and find allot of people don't want to approach me, I've never had much help with this so frequently found myself not playing, or playing some very unpleasant people.
> 
> ...


Where that is the case, as I said, the members should be on the lookout to try and involve newcomers in the atmosphere, if not necessarily the gaming - and the staff following on.

'Sadly' Vanquisher has been banned, but perhaps the OP can pass you on the info.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I was hoping a gaming club was going to be set up near where I live in birmingham, because I don't like going to Sutton Coldfield, rather it was closer to me. Unfortunately the organising of the club has been put on hold.


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## RetiredFlagellant (Apr 26, 2012)

Thank you all for the support, encouragement and sound advice. It certainly generated lively debate! My opinion on the enforcement of painting standards and player levels, etcetera, is that the arena will be offering an atmospheric and inspiring place to play a miniatures battle game. It is not in the business's interest to be turning away customers if they haven't painted their Empire Swordsmen (on a personal level I play friendly games and its more important to me to have a good laugh, so it doesn't bother me that there will be unpainted models on the table). We will have a meeting/seating area with a cafe (seperate from our book/hobby store) so we are hoping that this will facilitate customers finding new opponents. We have had a massive response but still need more market research to confirm the results and lead the business development.Thank you again.

Access the market survey here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dDQ3OTVWMGNJMjlIaHU4VGFZbEM4WEE6MQ


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Any further news on this?


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## RetiredFlagellant (Apr 26, 2012)

Hello. We are searching for a suitably sized building (we will need about 40,000 square feet) that we can convert and fit out so it is unlikely that we will open for business this year. We will try and push it to coincide with the release of The Hobbit film. We will be starting a Youtube Channel to promote the business and the amazing boards we have planned; keep your eyes peeled for future updates.


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