# Gauntlet of Fire: Better than it seems



## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Alright, so, most people who read the codex and look at the profile for the Gauntlet and the Warscythe, and wonder why anyone would take the gauntlet over the warscythe, I will answer.

Now, the use it has is dependent on your enemy, but there are a lot of lists that the gauntlet of fire works much better against. These are primarily lists that are more horde-y. Guard spam, green tide, so on. You will get much more use from the gauntlet than you will the warscythe, and it is cheaper too.

Against MEq or lots of tanks, you want the warscythe because of its power weapon status and its +2 str wound resolution (Which effectively takes the model holding it to S7). However, there are two things to remember:

1: Gauntlet gets a flamer template, and its shooting attack is nothing to scoff at.

2: In CC, it rerolls to hit and to wound. You'll end up dealing a lot more wounds with the gauntlet against things like Orks which have WS4 and T4, but can still throw lots of models at you. You reroll two 4+ rolls, whereas with a warscythe you get un-rerollable 4+ and 2+.

SO with three attacks:

Gauntlet (vs 6+ ork boy armor):
1.5 pass. Reroll.
2.25 roll successes.
Of those, 1.125 pass. Reroll.
2.065 pass.
*1.72 models killed.*

Warscythe:
1.5 pass.
1.25 wounds.
*1.25 models killed.*

Plus you get that shooting attack with the template, and for lower cost.

Against things with better armor saves, you want the warscythe to deny armor saves. But against thinks like Boyz spam, gauntlet is definitely the way to go.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

50%+ of armies are MeQ or 4+ so no people aren't underestimating the gauntlets. Now if you play in some weird ass alternate dimension with primarily nid/orc as your primary opponents then they are a awesome wargear choice.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

I play against Dark Eldar and he hates the gauntlet. I played it against Orks and they hated it. If i'm in assault (necron removal) range anyways, I'd rather try and cause a couple wounds in the shooting phase on Marines, because chances are I won't even get to swing my warscythe. It's a nice bonus for a relentless Infantry blob.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

The warscythe adds what necrons largely lack, which is a reliable way to deal with AV 13 and 14, in the form of a barge lord. 

Necron lords in combat against anything that is not a less than or equal to a tac squad? You are doing it wrong.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Against swarm lists you:

1: Don't generally see much AV13+

2: Don't have a lot of choice about who to get in combats with

My point is, that it beats warscythes by miles against swarms. Also, against swarms, why are you taking bargelords? You need Annihilation Barges to deal with those.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

I don't take counter builds or tailored lists, i build a list that can deal with everything. 2 bargelords with scythes, 2x 4 crypteks with lances and a solar pulse each, 3x5 warriors in night scythes, 3 wraiths, 6 scarabs and 3 annihilation barges. The list deals with pretty much everything and is fast and mobile.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

You don't even equip your army with options?

If you never change it up, you're not being effective. I'm not saying tailor lists. I'm saying if you play lots of nid and ork players, consider the gauntlet over the scythe.


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## Creator of Chaos (Feb 8, 2012)

I've used the Guanlet before mostly on imotek and regular Necron Lords tho and I'm going to say dont under-estimate the Guanlet, Ok its not a power weapon like the scythe or AP3 like the Staff of light but its a good piece of kit that allows you to do well in both shooting and combat. Its the only Lord gear the crons have that allows them to move, Shoot and Charge all in a single turn with equal effect. 

While its not on par with the warscythe its nothing to scoff at. Imotek burning assault marines as they apporach him before charging or Trazyns Lord body guard burning through nids to get to the objective. The Guanlet is highly effective in both scenrios and while you must definatly always include at-least 1 warscythe in your army throwing a Guanlet in there doesn't hurt either. Its cheap, its very good for what it does and for those who miss the old staff of light its a good fair replacement


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> You don't even equip your army with options?
> 
> If you never change it up, you're not being effective. I'm not saying tailor lists. I'm saying if you play lots of nid and ork players, consider the gauntlet over the scythe.


Sorry, no. If you change to Gauntlet for playing Nids/Orks and use Scythe for most other games, that IS tailoring.

Anyway, I'd actually hazard that you have MORE than enough anti-infantry anyway in the list, unless your army is dreadful, and so you'd be better employed using CCBs to fly over Tervigons, Hive Guard, Battlewagons, Nob Bikes etc... - things with armour that the Gauss can't effortlessly flay into atoms with ease anyway, or Tesla obliterate.


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

Only problem is that against Orks, there is always the possibility of a Pain-Boy being in the unit...which means that they now have FNP saves, which they are able to take since the Gauntlet is neither: A Power weapon, double toughness, AP 1 or 2. The Warscythe, hell, even the Hyper-Phase sword, guarantees a dead Ork on a wound. 

Don't get me wrong. It's not terrible. I used it against guardsmen and they just got fried. But most of the time, an Overlord is in a CCB, where the Warscythe is best.


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## Seppuku (Jan 8, 2012)

*Cryptek Duplicates*

mcmuffin:

Are you saying you give 8 total crypteks lances and solar pulse? I've taken classes in grad school which are simpler than the new Necron codex. 

I thought the codex said you can't have multiples of Crypteks with identical gear in the same court. I get you could have two total (one per court), but 8 doesn't seem right.

Could you elucidate? 

I am trying to get back into 40K after a serious (6 year) layoff. I play Orks, and we WAAAGH. I'm still building/painting my force, and in my games against Necrons it always feels "wrong" somehow.

Thanks!

Seppuku.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

The restriction of 1 type of wargear does not apply to the weapon upgrade that come with selecting a specific type of crytek. The unique wargear for each court is stuff like solar pulse, which you have to take two royal courts to get access to more then one.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

What i mean is taking 2 courts with 4 crypteks each, all of them with lances, you are allowed to do that, just not double on other unique items


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## Seppuku (Jan 8, 2012)

Ah Ha. I guess the weaponry vs. the specific wargear was causing the confusion. I need to go play some games and stop working.

Thanks to both of you.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Yeah with the cryptek harbinger gear you can have several harbinger with the weaponjsut not the wargear, its FAQ'd

I find Gauntlets pretty useful, I've used it in a few games and softened an assaulting unitnumerours times. Now don't scream that this is a waste but if you are against something like grey nights. In a low point game put the gauntlet with deathmarks and mark a squad, if the lord has a res orb it gives the deathmarks a bonus and marked squads are also wounded on +2 in CC.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Deathmarks can only use their ability to Mark a unit once without a Cryptek attached though - so the more common attachment of a Veil of Darkness is still a much stronger option.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Oh hell yeah, I put a thread out about that and the abyssal staff. I was just suggesting if people didn't want to and have the gauntlet of fire


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

But even at that - you're not going to want the Deathmarks in CC, it would end badly.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

unless its the marked squad, and it isn't full of PWs


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Even then. Wounding on 2s with your Deathmarks is great and all, but if Deathmarks are in combat it means they've been charged, and so have had shooting casualties on top of the further they will incur striking after the enemy.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Yeah guess so, but tbh I would assault first if i know if i'm gonna be assaulted by my marked squad, or with veil-tek etleport out of there - hence the reason i take it


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Well, if you've teleported in but failed to kill the target with Shooting, which I assumed, then you can do neither...


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

but normally you can tell if someone is planning to assault you a turn before they do because they are moving directly towards that unit... most of the time. However if you really want to wast 160pts i guess u could put in obyron to get them out with the mantle, but ur stupid if u do cus it wastes him.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Well, taking Obyron in the first place isn't exactly a smart decision.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

see I like him, but yeah as I said if you had 160pts to waste, not only are u an idiot but if I was that idiot i would waste it on him


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

If you teleport in close enough to be assaulted and don't kill your target, then you won't have that extra turn to escape as you claim. You will teleport, shoot, and be swept off in the assault. If for some reason you've attached Obyron to the Deathmark unit then I would have to shake my head in wonder as you placed such an expensive and clashing unit on the table. I honestly prefer my Deathmarks to be dropped off by a scythe and work solo over finnicky teleportation. Obyron, never, ever.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Yeah as I said you would be an idiot, but if you can't get out of the assault range then I would probably assault for the extra attack bonus and deny them it the next turn when they would have assaulted


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

But you can't, you can't assault after Deep Striking...


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Oh right sorry I didn't realise what you meant, yeah true. Probably would try and be on the 24'' range so u can't be assaulted, if u roll right of course


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

For me, that's the problem with Deathmarks - having a Rapid Fire weapon is senseless for Snipers...:crazy:


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

It's always better than having a Heavy 1 weapon, whichever way you cut it.

Midnight


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Only if the range doesn't change.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

If Synaptic Disintegrators were 24" range, Heavy 1, they wouldn't be as good as if they were Rapid Fire. RF is just a nice little bonus.

Midnight


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

That's what I said...Lol.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

tbh i think assault 1 (in the synaptic disintigrator's case) would be better than rapid fire, and for a sniper they have a tiny range


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Assault 1 would indeed be better as it would allow them to kite or move away.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

But hey, they can still teleport into a position around 24" away from the enemy.

Or you can be a unique and special flower and attach a Phaeron with Warscythe for the shits and giggles.

Midnight


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

Except then they've moved and can only rapid fire. I keep saying it but...night scythe transport! Turn one flat out, turn two disembark. Still more reliable than deep striking and waiting another extra turn for full range.


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

Though you're basically spending 100 points for moving that unit to exactly where you want and firing a twin-linked tesla destructor once. Cause you know its gonna get blown up.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

The Deathmarks are probably going to die too, but i'll still pay for them... I'm not seeing a problem here


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

My deathmarks actually have a fairly high survival rate. Also, It's shocking but I'd rather have 5 wounds at 3+ armour save and a 5+ reanimation than a AV11 vehicle. I'm just not feelin the night scythe is all.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

I take both, twice. They make a very nice anvil unit in the list I just posted. I've lost units to deep strike so many times that i'll chance bring gunned down over deep striking every day.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

why wouldn't you take a night scythe? They carry tesla destructors, probably the best thing in the whole codex alongside solar pulse


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

because that TD is attached to a paper plane.


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

If I bring a paper plane, it's gonna have TL Tesla and a death ray.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Thing is, its a short ranged glass cannon. Short range+glass cannon is a bad combo.


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## Lord Azune (Nov 12, 2011)

True but I'd rather a glass cannon that can kill lots of things than a glass shotgun which pretty much requires a monolith to use its extra units. (Seriously, walking them in from edge makes them near useless!)


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

I think you need to play against Dark Eldar more often. I have yet to beat them and the strongest armour they have is made of layers of foamboard- AV11, incidentally. Necrons have always been entirely about synergy. The new codex emphasizes this even more. The first time I read the night scythe rules, I realized that a monolith pretty well was required for the scythe to work properly. The necron phalanx is as viable a tactic as it was pre update; we just have better toys to play it with now.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Night scythes are only fragile if you use them wrong. Solar pulses protect them intil you get in destructor range.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Night Scythes are no more fragile than Razorbacks! WTFBBQ?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

The turn they get out of a transport they can't shoot 24" either, and you're then paying for the Deep Strike rules that you're not going to use.

Midnight


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Just because you take a Transport doesn't compel you to use it...


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

You do have a point.

Midnight


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Indeed, I'd posit it may be better to swarm 5 or 6 empty Night Scythes at the foe, to force them to deal with them while the Troops get into position, and the Deathmarks Veil over to flame whatever gets demeched by massed Tesla fire.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Oh, certainly, running them in groups of at least 3 is vital. One AV11 chassis is easy to bring down. 6 of them? They're still easy to bring down, but do you physically have enough guns?

AV11 isn't actually too bad, as it offers protection against almost all small arms in the game - Dark Eldar and Orks cry when their Raiders and Trukks get wrecked by Boltguns, but you only have to weep manly tears of rage when you get hosed by Pulse Rifles, in which case your opponent really needs to learn about a concept called target priority.

Midnight


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Honestly, I have never seen an AV11 vehicle destroyed by Pulse Rifles - a combination of shitty BS and S5 meaning they can only glance makes me see them not worth even considering a threat.

Honestly, if Heavy Bolters aren't a threat to vehicles (they aren't) then Pulse Rifles are laughable. [Obviously Psybolts change that.]


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

I quite like th idea of swarming Night Scythes, however it may be and idea to scarifice one to upgrade another to a Doom Scythe if you aren't going to use them as transports.


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

My bad- I figured if you disembarked before moving the transport, your unit was free to move another 6", and therefore able to claim it's full range?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Nah, disembarking stops you from firing heavy or full-range rapid-fire weapons, although you can use the move to extend your range to 18".

TKE, I've destroyed a full squadron of Killa Kanz with a Scout with Heavy Bolter before, and I'm from Whineseer so referencing an unlikely anecdote is a perfectly acceptable form of proof that a situation is likely to happen or that a unit is good. 

Midnight


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

falcoso said:


> I quite like th idea of swarming Night Scythes, however it may be and idea to scarifice one to upgrade another to a Doom Scythe if you aren't going to use them as transports.


Not really - a Doom Scythe is just a MUCH more obvious target choice, for no additional survivability. Better to just stick to the much cheaper Annihilation Barge, usually anyway.



MidnightSun said:


> TKE, I've destroyed a full squadron of Killa Kanz with a Scout with Heavy Bolter before, and I'm from Whineseer so referencing an unlikely anecdote is a perfectly acceptable form of proof that a situation is likely to happen or that a unit is good.


Argh, you defeated me with your logic. :victory:


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Sothot said:


> My bad- I figured if you disembarked before moving the transport, your unit was free to move another 6", and therefore able to claim it's full range?


I'm probably wrong given tat I never have actually played with a Land Raider in my CSM army, but I think assault doors let you do that though



TheKingElessar said:


> Not really - a Doom Scythe is just a MUCH more obvious target choice, for no additional survivability. Better to just stick to the much cheaper Annihilation Barge, usually anyway.


Yeah it would be a pretty obvious target.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

The Assault Vehicle capacity of Land Raiders (and Open-Topped Transports) allows you to Assault after disembarking irrespective of whether or not the vehicle moved beforehand - it does not mean that you do not count as moving when you disembark for purposes of Shooting, which was the discussion.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

aaah ok my bad, yeah I would have thought it does count as moving


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

But if you include a Phaeron, of course, you go back to full range. I like Night Scythes, they tend to do excellent work turboing around the board getting in the way turn one, and then the few survivors ending up tesla-ing around.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Wanted to bring this back up again as now on Overwatch the Gauntlet can use its flamer template. Ouch. Well, not the template part. But the wounding part.


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

While neat, I still say the Warscythe is much better.


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## TDbehr (Jul 17, 2012)

The Sturk said:


> While neat, I still say the Warscythe is much better.


referring back to the beginning of this thread... that may be so against MEQ, but against ORKS/D\ELDAR/IG/NIDS, the gauntlet is awsome

one not on the OP though, the models that carry the gauntlet are S5, so your actually wounding orks T4 on 3's, not 4's


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

yeah against hoardes I would probably go for gauntlet if it is a generic lord who I don't have a plan for


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

Not denying that it wouldn't be great against hordes. I personally find the Warscythe as a better all-comers weapon is all.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Warscythes are the premier anti-vehicle melee weapon now.

There is absolutely no reason to ever take a Gauntlet, especially with the Chariot buffs making CCBs even more invaluable.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I'd have to agree given that there are other things to be anti-assault, and the scythe just is so much better than anything else the 'crons have.


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## Creator of Chaos (Feb 8, 2012)

The Warscythe Clearly is the best combat weapon in the necron Codex and probably the game especially when combined with a Command Barge theres no denying that especially since the Hyper-phase Sword got nerfed with 6th edition and the staff of light is not what it used to be and we all know that the voidblade is just crud. I would go on to say that the warscythe is a staple and you should always have at-least 1 floating around

That said the Guanlet of Fire makes a great 2nd choice weather you stick it on your 2nd Foot-slogging overlord or on a supporting necron Lord. Its the only weapon in the Dex that gives you both combat use and shooting effectivly replacing the old Staff of Light with the bonus of a flame Template making it useful against hoards and a great overwatch weapon. You should not under-estimate the Guanlet and at 5 Points is an absolute bargin. 

But once again the warscythe is clearly superior with AP1 and +2 Strengh but dont under-estimate the Guanlet. Its make a damn good support weapon.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

But one Flamer isn't an anti-horde weapon, or a good Overwatch weapon. One Flamer? Hordes laugh at you. Two Flamers? Hordes take notice of you, then roll over you but not quite as embarrassingly quickly. Four Flamers? Hordes get sad.

Midnight


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Well, granted you could take four lords with gauntlets of flame. That would get the hordes sad. But likely they just wouldn't fight that unit. Anti-horde still is best with Tesla.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Creon said:


> Well, granted you could take four lords with gauntlets of flame. That would get the hordes sad. But likely they just wouldn't fight that unit. Anti-horde still is best with Tesla.


Pre-cisely. Things tend to avoid things that hurt them, so hordes would avoid said Court. They work in armies like Imperial Guard, where you can pack at least one flamer into just about every unit you want to take, and if you can't you can screen it with one that can. Not that Guard need help clearing out hordes, what with Leman Russ, Hellhounds and Manticores sitting around alongside sheer number of shots, but it's helpful. I dunno who else it works for, Orks might be able to do it with Burna Boyz but outside of them there's not a lot of Overwatch units that can take many.

Flamers are still cool anti-horde weapons, and better than your standard Bolter or Lasgun or whatever, just that, like everything else in the game, just one of them doesn't scare a horde. Quantity has a quality all of it's own.

Midnight


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## Lord Commander Solus (Jul 26, 2012)

Couldn't you have a Court of 5 Lords with Gauntlets and a Despairtek with VoD? That *might* make it an option as you could effectively pull a Sternguard DP every turn.

Still a huge points sink for what is solved by other things a lot easier.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

But some can't fire, as you can't place the template over your own models. Deathmarks do that trick a lot better with the Abyssal Staff/Hunters from Hyperspace combo anyhow.

Midnight


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

It would be very difficult to place 6 flamer templates after deep striking to avoid hitting your own units, while effectively covering the unit you drop next to. I really like the idea, but the way you need to position yourself nerfs the unit.
EDIT- Beaten by Midnight.  I think every Necron player needs to play (lose horribly) with a Royal Court Deathstar just to learn that lesson and stop suggesting/trying it.


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## Lord Commander Solus (Jul 26, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> But some can't fire, as you can't place the template over your own models. Deathmarks do that trick a lot better with the Abyssal Staff/Hunters from Hyperspace combo anyhow.
> 
> Midnight


Nobody has ever explained this combo to me. Please, I need to understand where the logic comes from if I'm ever going to have any hope of being convinced its plausible. :laugh:


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

Hunters From Hyperspace- Mark a unit to be wounded on a 2+.
Veiltek w/abyssal staff- Veil of Darkness teleports around with ld attacking flamer template.

Necron FAQ- If a character joins a unit of Deathmarks does it benefit from HFH?
- Yes.

Therefore you have a teleporting ap1 flamer template that wounds marked units on a 2+. Add multiple units of Deathmarks to increase it's usage on more than one unit.


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## Lord Commander Solus (Jul 26, 2012)

Sothot said:


> Hunters From Hyperspace- Mark a unit to be wounded on a 2+.
> Veiltek w/abyssal staff- Veil of Darkness teleports around with ld attacking flamer template.
> 
> Necron FAQ- If a character joins a unit of Deathmarks does it benefit from HFH?
> ...


They actually FAQ'd that...? Wowsers. So Deathmarks are the new black, then?

*looks forlornly at assembled Immortals from the dual kit*

I'll live. :laugh: Thanks for the explanation.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Personally with the tesla anti-hoarde thing I would actually go for gauss blasters over carbines because with 12" you automatically get 2 shot in stead of the one in six chance of getting an extra 2 hits as you do with tesla, and the blaster is ap4 and most hoarde armies have that or worse armour - except for of course in overwatch tesla is better in every way (apart from the ap4 thing)


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