# Necs vs Nids: Which would destroy the galaxy?



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

In my oppoinion the 2 most overated races in fluff of galaxy conquering. 

Anywho if the Hivemind wish to eat the Galaxy, and did a good job at it instead failing, I would think that would piss off the Ctan and they in turn would wish to kill all that Living Bio Mass. Who wins in a epic confrotation between these two.


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## Smokes (Nov 27, 2009)

Most likely since the Necron's don't concern the Nids unless everyone else is out of the way, the swarm will avoid the Necrons. But if they were to clash imagine the amount of slaughter, destruction and epic scale of those battles? Tarantino should just make a movie about some random battle between the Necrons and Nid's. 

The Tyranids would suffer horrible losses but if the rumors are true they have the numbers advantage over the Necrons and would be able to compensate for the losses. Where can I find some numbers or rough guesses on the Necrons? Even one of their warriors is the equivalent of 200 Imperial Guardsmen with standard kit. Maybe I am exaggerating but they are definitely tough. When you add in the C'Tan, all on the same battlefield, against all of the Tyranids as realistically possible on the same planet, Christ that would be one for the ages. We can be 100% certain that it would be the most epic battle of all time. With all of the different types of each races and their usual tactics (They both have complete disregard for tactics. They only care about destroying each other) I would say that each side would suffer so many losses that the fight would be a draw but, being biased, the Tyranids would eventually win. The Nid's would be assimilating everything else in the universe and growing with even more power. The Necrons only have so much and would eventually lose out unless there "Gods" were able to reach the control creatures or take out the actual "Hive Mind" if it even exists which would give the advantage to the Necrons.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

It feels hard arguing for either one without feeling like a fanboyish twit arguing about his favorite overpowered race . I'm going off prior knowledge, so if anything I say is wrong feel free to correct me.

The tyranids' primary advantage is numbers, which is good for them since numbers are about the only advantage a race can have over the necron. If the necron manage to destroy a hive of the buggers a few stragglers would be able to start the whole thing over again anew, and they have plenty of other worlds in which to do so. They evolve rapidly, but that's not really an advantage compared to the Necron, whose weaponry take advantage of weaknesses all organic lifeforms have; at best it could only be used offensively.

The tyranids can replenish their numbers by harvesting a nearby world, but this itself is a disadvantage. Attacking an Eldar, Space Marines, Ork, or Tau planet could be potentially fatal for a tyranid hive, and even if they do succeed in surpressing their enemies the necron can swoop in whenever they're at their weakest and deal a decisive blow.

The necron's primary advantage is the element of time. They're immortals, currently the oldest living things in the galaxy. They can wait, plan, use the tyranid's aggressive nature against them, develop new insanely powerful tech specifically catered to deal with the tyranids, if they don't have something along those lines already. The tyranids have superior numbers, but killing a necron is bloody difficult, even more so if you expect it to be permenant. They'll just pop back to their base, get their shells repaired, and set out to squash some more roaches. With the backing of two awakened, ultra-powerful C'tan they're a force to be reckoned with.

Like most things, I'd say there's too many mysteries involved. We don't know what sorts of uber devices the Necron have stored away, and we don't know just how many tyranid swarms lie beyond the galaxy's end. There may be enough tyranid to outnumber the necron a quadrillion to one, and the necron might just possess toy guns that can kill a quadrillion lifeforms in one shot. My money's on the necron at the moment, but that's only because I favor the science based race to the tyranid/zerg hive mind race.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Do the Nids have souls? If they do then they are the biggest harvest the necrons can imagine. If not then the necrons would ignore them. The nids don't care about necrodermis, it does not provide them biomass. Its a race to see who can wipe out all life first.


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## Smokes (Nov 27, 2009)

They don't have souls or at least I didn't think they would have them. Both races would gain nothing from the conflict besides territory and I don't expect Necrons to be hanging around on very pretty and plentiful planets. So let's put it on a giant moon with surround planets full of innocents and ignorant folk. The Tyranids aren't retarded. They know that if they attack the Necrons they won't gain anything because can they even incorporate Necron technology? The Necrons wouldn't really get anything either except for holding their original territory. Because imagine Tyranid genus mixed with Necrons...imba to the max.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

GabrialSagan said:


> Do the Nids have souls? If they do then they are the biggest harvest the necrons can imagine. If not then the necrons would ignore them. The nids don't care about necrodermis, it does not provide them biomass. Its a race to see who can wipe out all life first.



Well if memory serves right, the Enslavers killed most of the Lifeforms and cause the Ctan all the trouble of Starvation to begin with. They are back now the galaxy is teaming with food. However Nids eat everything insight and are in essence worse than the Enslavers. So my Question is based on the reasonable assumption that the Deceaver and Night Bringer felt threaten by starvation permantly, they will sooner or later have to beat back the nids more so than any other foe. The Nids next to the Chaos Gods are the Necs WORSE enemies. So my question is who would end up wiping out the Galaxy first, and they will have to fight over it.


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## oblivion8 (Jun 17, 2009)

> The tyranids can replenish their numbers by harvesting a nearby world, but this itself is a disadvantage. Attacking an Eldar, Space Marines, Ork, or Tau planet could be potentially fatal for a tyranid hive, and even if they do succeed in surpressing their enemies the necron can swoop in whenever they're at their weakest and deal a decisive blow.


I think we are considering that these races are not contributing factors.

In the nid codex it says that the imperium would have to increase to 500% more efficiancy to even stand CLOSE to the nids main force. with everybody picking up arms and fighting, billions, maybe trillions of civilians with lasguns and whatnot.

that and the fact that necrons dont have titans (As far as I know) I think that the necrons would get ganked. The deciever escpecially needs human error to work his stuff, he cant really disguise himself as a hive tyrant and gain military info  i dunno about the other ctan though....

also as far as i know, the necrons have no way to increase there numbers, while the nids can continue to take world after world.

any thoughts?


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## Smokes (Nov 27, 2009)

Well I think the only answer is this: kekekekekekekeke


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Im not big on Tyranid Background and have never had any of their codices so bear with me here!

The Hive Mind operates via and uses the Warp right? The Necrons/C'tan plan on sealing the Warp from the Material realm right? Get where im going with this? 

If the C'tan are able to enact their plan, then lets just say that it wouldn't only be the Imperium that would be screwed!



oblivion8 said:


> that and the fact that necrons dont have titans (As far as I know)


No, but they possess equipment and technology that far outclass Imperial titans. 



oblivion8 said:


> also as far as i know, the necrons have no way to increase there numbers, while the nids can continue to take world after world.


They have Pariahs.

Originally created by the Deciever, this is how they increase their numbers. By farming the Pariah gene in humanity. Its highly probable that these Pariahs actually interupt the Hive Mind aswell, given that they are blanks.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

oblivion8 said:


> I think we are considering that these races are not contributing factors.


As in we're pretending they _won't_ participate or we're assuming they _can't?_ 

If it's the latter, I don't think you're giving the other races enough credit. Even if the whole of the Imperium is a 1/5 of the strength of the tyranid's main force, they're still strong and plentiful enough to put a huge dent in their numbers if the invaded planet is important enough. And that's just the Imperium. A waagh, eldar craftworld, or important tau planet would be incredibly difficult for the Tyranids to overtake, and if the Necron wished they could easily make it a war on two fronts.

If it's the former, you're giving the tyranid an unfair advantage. Tyranids can't increase their numbers without biomass, and they can't take biomass without cheesing off some potentially powerful enemies. Giving Tyranids unresisted access to said biomass would be like making every planet in the galaxy a tomb world.



> The deciever escpecially needs human error to work his stuff, he cant really disguise himself as a hive tyrant and gain military info  i dunno about the other ctan though....


The hivemind isn't perfect. It makes tactical assessments and targets weak points, and it can be incorrect when it gauges the strength of these vulnerable spots. I don't know the full extent of the Deciever's subtlety, but it's very possible it can take advantage of the tyranids in this regard. Inserting itself into the hive mind is probably beyond its abilities, but it can still make a useless target appear more vital, or a powerful necron weapon seem a simple enough objective to take.

What's more, the tyranids are completely incapable of killing the C'tan, at least directly. Only the blackstone fortresses have that power, as far as we know.



> also as far as i know, the necrons have no way to increase there numbers, while the nids can continue to take world after world.


The Necron don't particularly NEED to increase their numbers since their numbers will always be nearly consistent. "Dead" Necron will teleport back to a tomb world, be repaired, and go back to take down more tyranids. While they _can_ be permenantly killed if damaged enough, I don't think there's any race out there, including the tyranids, who can do so reliably enough to put a serious dent in their numbers.

Keep in mind that the current Necron in the galaxy are not soldiers. They're merely harvesters, and they're more powerful, man per man, than any other force in the galaxy. Necron are beated by numbers, not force. It's that the necron soldiers and weaponry they're keeping hidden will make the harvesters look silly and impotent by comparison.


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## oblivion8 (Jun 17, 2009)

> If it's the latter, I don't think you're giving the other races enough credit. Even if the whole of the Imperium is a 1/5 of the strength of the tyranid's main force, they're still strong and plentiful enough to put a huge dent in their numbers if the invaded planet is important enough. And that's just the Imperium. A waagh, eldar craftworld, or important tau planet would be incredibly difficult for the Tyranids to overtake, and if the Necron wished they could easily make it a war on two fronts.


Either way I think we are assuming that they have already been dealt with are we not?




> The Necron don't particularly NEED to increase their numbers since their numbers will always be nearly consistent. "Dead" Necron will teleport back to a tomb world, be repaired, and go back to take down more tyranids. While they can be permenantly killed if damaged enough, I don't think there's any race out there, including the tyranids, who can do so reliably enough to put a serious dent in their numbers.


If the nids win a planet, then their numbers are replenished as well.

Either way however, I think the nids would just consume the planets then move on, they have no reason to stay in the galaxy or wherever, they just want to feed.
Im not sure what the necrons want excatly, they want to enslave the races right?


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

As much as I hate fanboy arguments, here's a couple of points:
1) Necrons can be permanently destroyed.
2) Nids constantly replenish their dead by re-consuming them.
3) Necrons *do* commit biomass(well not exactly *BIO*mass) when digested. People can digest and absorb Iron, Calcium and all kinds of other metals. That's why you shouldn't put anything containing lead or other heavy metals in your mouth (obviously).
4) The majority of the necron forces are not active.
5) Only a C'tan's metal body can be destroyed.
6) Necrons are vulnerable to warp based attacks.
7) Tomb worlds have no life and as such don't attract the Tyranids.
8) Both codices are designed to attract you to that army so of course GW is gonna make them sound completely badass and unstoppable.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

A lot has been said here but I have to say to the original poster,

Did you forget about Orks? I havn't read anything really about orks vs tyranids but they are both horde armies.

Orks were also practically designed to defeat the necrons.

In any case, they are the third race that has the potential to completely wipe everything else out, whether they unify or not. Dont mean to take the thread off topic, just sayin.


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## Jackinator (Nov 18, 2008)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> 2) Nids constantly replenish their dead by re-consuming them.
> 3) Necrons *do* commit biomass(well not exactly *BIO*mass) when digested. People can digest and absorb Iron, Calcium and all kinds of other metals. That's why you shouldn't put anything containing lead or other heavy metals in your mouth (obviously).


I agree with most of your points but Gauss Weapons vapourise their targets leaving no biomass for the Nids to consume (kinda hard to produce nids out of thin air).
And Tyranids only consume organic material and if they're anything the Necrons are certainly not organic, yes I know we can digest some metals but Necrons would not provide any that are useful to the tyranids, how do we even know that tyranids use iron or calcium in their bodies?

To be honest the Tyranids would never attack a tomb world because they don't gain *anything* from it. The only thig that would happen is the Necrons may attack the Tyranids (and probably win)in order to preserve their 'crop'.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> 1) Necrons can be permanently destroyed.


No one said they couldn't be 



ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> 3) Necrons *do* commit biomass(well not exactly *BIO*mass) when digested. People can digest and absorb Iron, Calcium and all kinds of other metals. That's why you shouldn't put anything containing lead or other heavy metals in your mouth (obviously).


Thats not entirely clear, yes Iron, Calcium etc can be digested but then the Necrons arn't made out of such things. They are made out of Necrodermis.



ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> 5) Only a C'tan's metal body can be destroyed


Again, Unclear. Yes there Necrodermis' obviously can be destroyed, but the Essence of the C'tan is not destroyed with it. But at one time there were many active C'tan, now there are 4. It seems that other C'tan can kill C'tan.



ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> 6) Necrons are vulnerable to warp based attacks.


Again that is not completley clear. It is stated that the C'tan are anathema to Warp energy, because they are beings purely of the Material. Similar rules apply to the Necrons as they have no souls and therefore no warp presence. But as to whether there vulnerable to warp energy, that is an assumption.



ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> 7) Tomb worlds have no life and as such don't attract the Tyranids.


Some Tomb Worlds do have life. Infact on some Tomb Worlds entire, flourishing civilisations live on the surface. completley ignorant of the slumbering Necrons beneath them.

Also the Tyranids are known to avoid Tomb Worlds, even if entire civilisations are present on the planets.



K3k3000 said:


> What's more, the tyranids are completely incapable of killing the C'tan, at least directly. Only the blackstone fortresses have that power, as far as we know.


Indeed and even the might of several Talismans of Vaul couldn't take down the Void Dragon. Although its speculated that this is how the Emperor defeated the Void Dragon, as the C'tan was in a weakened state after his encounter with the Eldar and the Talismans of Vaul.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Jackinator said:


> The only thig that would happen is the Necrons may attack the Tyranids (and probably win)in order to preserve their 'crop'.



Yes this is what my thread is about. The C'tan protecting their crop. The Nids are plowing thru with successe and the C'tan go on the offensive. The races still live in the galaxy thru all this, Im just saying wo has a better chance of winning.

Also Im slightly leaning to Necs now. I think the Deceaver is a major scale tipper as he can effectivly cause problems by using (tricking) other races into the fight against Nids or luring Nids to his Forces. His influence is pretty vast.


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## High Marshall Mendark (Jan 25, 2009)

Just say the nids do eat EVERYTHING and leave the necs alone, the necs would still win, for the nids would eventually starve. The necs wanna obliterate all life right? They would hunt the nids down and probably kill em all. Each battle, the nids would be more depleted, they would have less warriors every time and no way to replenish. It would be a battle of attrition, eventually the necs would wear down the nids.

One thing that people are forgetting though are orks, who just spore everywhere and Daemons and Chaos in general, which nids have a slight problem with, to put it nicely...


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

People are forgetting that Tyranids only live to consume all other _life_, Bio-mass, anything organic. Necrons do not fit into that so the Tyranids would not fight a costly war against the Necrons unless it hindered them from devouring other worlds. The Hive Fleets would continue to attack Imperial held Worlds, fight costly, yet ultimately very rewarding Ork wars, Eldar Craftworlds (thats... 2 owned now...) and Tau outposts. The fleet would by-pass a Tomb world, either because it is just a barren rock, OR they are aware of the Necron threat and that there is no gains to assaulting one. On the other hand, Necron tombs underneath imperial worlds which are rich in bio-mass may enevitabley be awakened, but it is doubtful the Nids would fight a war with them, only finishing of the assault on fleshy targets and maybe leaving a small defensive force COUGH Hive Guard COUGH, to protect the... erm... digestion pools etc. Only if a substantial Necron force were to attack say the rearguard of a Hive Fleet, or sub-sector of a Hive Fleet, thus impeding its ability to harvest and assault worlds at the forefront of the attack, would they attack the Necrons. They [The Nids] would probably then continue their assault on Bio-Mass targets but send of a small, specially designed task-force, with anti-necron weapons to deal with them. 

Then theres the question of ''Who would win?'', well its a tough call. Nids vastly outnumber Necrons, and no-doubt they would be specifically desgined to take down Necrons to boot, but they gain to additional resources from fighting and as Necrons, UNLESS suffered Immense damage, are teleported back to... erm... the tombs? No doubt the Nids would eventually fight there way into these tomb complexes and destroy them. On the other hand, Tyranids may have their own version of Exterminatus, in which large ships bombard a world, and so would refrain from loosing lots of bio-mass in a costly and ultimately pointless war.



> 8) Both codices are designed to attract you to that army so of course GW is gonna make them sound completely badass and unstoppable


Tou-fucking-che


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

tyranids tyranids tyranids

the exact number of tyranids is impossible to comphrehend
even if the necrons all turn into titans, like, each warrior becomes a warlord titan, the tryanids still win EASILY.
there is only the tiniest fleet in the known galaxy, the necrons just have a few tomb worlds, there numbers are limited.
the tryanids can also adapt to consume the metal of the necrons as biomass, so they can feed of the necrons too.

but the tyranids win, theres no way necrons stand a chance (the only way is reviving the Emperor, which cant happen so their all scrwed)


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

High Marshall Mendark said:


> the necs would still win, for the nids would eventually starve.


the galaxy is so huge they could never starve before all the stars die and another big bang (maybe its the theory) and the necrons cant win battle of attrition the nids would just wipe them out world at a time IF THEY COULD BE BOTHERED

but last I checked necrons have no spacecraft nids have a kind of space travel so they can just leave the necrons on their tomb worlds and move on, job done

tryanids win lol

Farseer D


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## Samir_Duran (Apr 6, 2009)

necrons have them... Look at battlefleet gothic, they have their own range showed even in White Dwarf


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Aye, Necrons do have ships, (Though Im not sure if they`re warp based or not...) and the Nids do. Tyranids have massive bio-ships, basically fuck-off hunks of chitin to the last of my knowledge, the 'last of my knowledge' bit an insurance policy against any of those that lurk in the fluff threads ready to rip apart people who say one thing slightly wrong...:wink:


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## Commissar Maximus (Sep 20, 2008)

bobss said:


> Aye, Necrons do have ships, (Though Im not sure if they`re warp based or not...) and the Nids do. Tyranids have massive bio-ships, basically fuck-off hunks of chitin to the last of my knowledge, the 'last of my knowledge' bit an insurance policy against any of those that lurk in the fluff threads ready to rip apart people who say one thing slightly wrong...:wink:


They are not warp based,they use inertial drive tech whatever that is.They outmatch like any ship of the imperium in weaponery and movement.They ignore space phenomena:meteor fields,solar pulse,gas clouds...
It is the only fleet i know that as /&%*&?" saves not shield points.
My imperial class ships are like futile resitance even with a nova cannon.

I read something about 3 shroud class ship landing on mars after simply breaking through the surrounding fleets and orbital stations.From all i know about necron technology,i assume they would win.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> tyranids tyranids tyranids
> 
> the exact number of tyranids is impossible to comphrehend
> even if the necrons all turn into titans, like, each warrior becomes a warlord titan, the tryanids still win EASILY.
> ...


Oh, don't over-exaggerate. If every ELDAR were to turn into a warlord titan the tyranid would have absolutely no chance. An entire race of war machines when a single one can make all the difference in the battle? You're basically giving the necron a "kill all tyranids" button .

Evolution isn't "magic," despite what some sci-fi genres would have you believe. No matter how much the tyranids wished and wished and wished, I really doubt the evolution fairy would leave the ability to digest necrodermis under their pillows. If they could evolve that way, they would have already, and likely would have developed a "spit nuclear warheads" gland while they were at it.

We don't know what sort of numbers the tyranids are packing. We know they're finite, though, since numbers sort of have to be. We also don't know what sort of tech the necrons are packing, other than what we've seen vastly outperforms the stuff belonging to every other race, and that they've got scarier stuff still stored away. On all counts, the necron haven't really been trying to hard yet.

As for the the rebirth of the emperor being impossible ... there's a star child and a sensei-emperor that wants to have words with you


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> the tryanids can also adapt to consume the metal of the necrons as biomass, so they can feed of the necrons too.


As a biomed. student and 40k nerd the sheer incorrectness of this makes me very angry.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> but last I checked necrons have no spacecraft


Ergh... Yes they do. In fact their Star-Ships arguably out-class most if not all other races' ships. The Necron Codex states them as being able to 'Cross the Galaxy in the blink of an eye' and this is without using the warp. If you want an example, several Necron ships were able to bypass the entire Sol System defence network and land on Mars itself.

And you are also not including the Star Gods in your theories...

And the Tyranids reliance on the Warp...

& as 'K3K3000' said, your massively over-exaggerating the Tyranid Threat and Ignoring most of the estbalished Necron background.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

I have a question CotE.

Its not sarcasm or any of that, but im generally interested in how the Necrons move throughout the Galaxy so fast? without highly advanced engines of the Air caste (Only going on some other guys words here) the Warp or Webway?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

bobss said:


> I have a question CotE.
> 
> Its not sarcasm or any of that, but im generally interested in how the Necrons move throughout the Galaxy so fast? without highly advanced engines of the Air caste (Only going on some other guys words here) the Warp or Webway?




Beats me, im not a scientist! But thats what the Codex says. The Necrontyr are known to have pursued science to an unprecedented level and to a level that has not been reached in the galaxy ever since. 

They created the Necrodermis, Gauss Weapons, methods with which to communicate with a being (The C'tan) of a different plane of existence, ships that could 'cross the galaxy in the blink of an eye', accurate teleportation devices and so on. I think its safe to say that the Necrons were and are the most technologically advanced race the galaxy has ever seen.

On a side note though what did you mean when you said 'highly advanced engines of the Air Caste', how can that be compared to the speed of Warp Travel or Webway Travel? The Tau make 'Warp Hops', skimming the very edge of the Immaterium in order to travel certain distances. They can't travel no way near as far as quickly as races that utilise the Warp or Webway for travel. Just wondering


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Im not to sure, the more I think about it the more Im sure that this was from once of those fluff threads about what the technological/Militaristic and political status each race would have in the future, so the 51st Millenium for example. One thing I noticed in amongst the numerous Tyranids Vs Daemons Vs Necrons Vs Orks posts was that one person mentioned how the Air Caste could develop super-fast engines for ships, meaning they had less reliance on the Warp.

I must of taken it for fact xD


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

bobss said:


> one person mentioned how the Air Caste could develop super-fast engines for ships, meaning they had less reliance on the Warp.


Oh, well if were talking about M51, rather than the 'current' (M41) - then thats entirely plausable that the Tau would have developed a FTL travel method without utilising the Warp by then.

However as were talking about M41, they havn't developed such a method yet


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## Forsaken Null (Dec 18, 2009)

*Tyranids.*

...Tyranids.

Unless the Necrons could wipe out EVERY hive ship and Norn Queen from the galaxy, the Tyranids would never actually lose numbers - they'd simply eat their own dead. So their numbers would remain, on average, the same. Destroy one swarm, another comes in, harvests that now-dead swarm, and now you're fighting the equivalent of two swarms.

Plus, you have to take into account that if the Tyranids are from outside the galaxy, there may be many more ready to enter. So the actual amount of Tyranids may be limitless.

Killing the Hive Mind is also extremely unlikely. Considering that it is a massive psychic prescence that appears to be outside both the galaxy and the warp and can shift through the warp not only unhampered but actually block it out, I'd imagine that if there were any vulnerabilities, they'd be very well guarded. Besides, not only do you have to find it, you have to break past whatever defences it has, then find a way to kill it.

Are the Necrons honestly capable of 5-second galactic slaughter, interdimentional travel and killing something that may not even have a physical existance? I do not know much of Necrons, but I'm going out on a whim here and saying they aren't _that_ epic.

However, the chance of a fight between them is incredibly slim. They would acheive nothing through conflict, and Tyranids are not exactly concerned with territory. No biomass, no battle; unless either side randomly lashed out. But even then, it would take some serious provokation for that to lead to any real conflict.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Forsaken Null said:


> ...Tyranids.
> 
> Unless the Necrons could wipe out EVERY hive ship and Norn Queen from the galaxy, the Tyranids would never actually lose numbers - they'd simply eat their own dead. So their numbers would remain, on average, the same. Destroy one swarm, another comes in, harvests that now-dead swarm, and now you're fighting the equivalent of two swarms.
> 
> ...


Your lack of Necron Fluff shows.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Forsaken Null said:


> ...Tyranids.
> 
> Unless the Necrons could wipe out EVERY hive ship and Norn Queen from the galaxy, the Tyranids would never actually lose numbers - they'd simply eat their own dead. So their numbers would remain, on average, the same. Destroy one swarm, another comes in, harvests that now-dead swarm, and now you're fighting the equivalent of two swarms.


I've yet to find any solid information on the subject, but I'm willing to take your word for it that the tyranid can use their dead for bio-mass. Even then, though, assuming that a dead tyranid's bio-mass could make a tyranid of the same quality and "rank" is fallacy; I'm fairly certain it would be biologically impossible for any organism to be that effecient, and even if it was the nature of Gauss weaponry would prevent it. Some bio-mass woud be left over from a massacre, certainly, but not enough to double a swarms even if that was possible to begin with.



> Plus, you have to take into account that if the Tyranids are from outside the galaxy, there may be many more ready to enter. So the actual amount of Tyranids may be limitless.


Tyranid numbers are definitely finite, since, y'know, it'd be impossible to have a limitless number of anything. It's certainly possible that there's too many tyranid out there for any other race, necron included, to stand against the tyranid, but based on what we've seen it'd be a stretch to assume that it's a certainty. At present, it's just a possibility.

Also, keep in mind that the tyranids are hardly moving as one race. The Kraken swarm came 250 years after Behemoth, the first swarm, and while Leviathan didn't come too long after Kraken it'd be presumptuous to assume that the whole tyranid race is right behind Leviathan. The full Necron race could definitely tackle a swarm of Kraken's size, make repairs as needed, and be more or less at full strength (if not greater with their scientific advances) come next swarm.



> Killing the Hive Mind is also extremely unlikely. Considering that it is a massive psychic prescence that appears to be outside both the galaxy and the warp and can shift through the warp not only unhampered but actually block it out, I'd imagine that if there were any vulnerabilities, they'd be very well guarded. Besides, not only do you have to find it, you have to break past whatever defences it has, then find a way to kill it.


I'm fairly certain the hive mind exists within the warp. Targeting it would probably be beyond the Necron's capabilities, true; they'd have to destroy the vast majority of the tyranids in order to take down the hive mind. Combatting the hive mind itself would take a psyker of the emperor's prowess, and even then it's possible he wouldn't be able to do anything but predict its course of actions or communicate with it. However, the necrons would make easy sport of synapses, which play a huge role in relaying the wishes and orders of the hive mind. In that way they could counter it on a smaller scale.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

> I'm fairly certain the hive mind exists within the warp


God-damn it the Hive Mind is NOT and I repeat NOT a physical thing. It is not a God or Daemon or actually anything for that matter, and Im sure it dosen`t reside within the warp. 

The Hive Mind is the the collected conciousness of ALL the Tyranids, which they make up, but in turn are independat of, only Snapse creatures can tap into it. Its basically just a massive psycic force, a collected Mind of all the Nids (Although Im not sure if None-synapse are included in this), not a God or Daemon or a collection of Tyranid warriors with beards and cloaks inside a dark room going> '' Hmm... I fancy some Elf today... lets raze Iyanden to the ground...''


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Your lack of Necron Fluff shows.


Erm, C'tan will NOT starve due to lack of sentient life essense. C'tan can eat stars. It's not as fun as eating life essense admittedly, but the last time their stock of sentient food ran low (due to the enslavers) what did the C'tan do? They didn't exterminate the enslavers. No, they simply waited for the enslavers to leave. Just like they'll do with the Tyranids.

EDIT: bobss: The hive Mind is the collective consciousness of all Tyranids. Oh, and the hive mind is also the single most powerful psychic force yet encountered by the Imperium, and its psychic presense is so powerful it blocks other psychic signals getting throgh it. It is obvious that the hive mind is a psychic force. Psykers all derive their power from the warp. Synapse creatures are part of the Hive mind. They are the brain cells of the single Tyranid hyper organism. The fact they tap into the hive mind, and are psykers, means they are tapping into a force from the warp. That force is the hive mind.

It's pretty obvious that the hive mind exists in the warp. Oh and warp beings are physical either, or 'real' in the sense they exist independant of the realm of madness.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

> Tyranid hyper organism


From this you mean the entire Tyranid force, or one giant Tyranid being? because my thoughts derrived from the... little fluff in the 4th edition Codex (though this may change soon) was that the 'Hive Mind' is a metaphor or name given to an Immensely powerful Pyscic force, _not_ something that is an actual being with an incredible power, like Tzeentch (The God him/itself) for example.

However, other people Ive listened to often think differently, their views from the fluff are more one-dimensional and literal and they just believe what they read, saying that the Hive Mind is a.... (ugh god this is the best way of describing it-) A fuck-off Nid in the void with immense Psycic strength, which conflict with my views.


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

bobss said:


> From this you mean the entire Tyranid force, or one giant Tyranid being?


The Tyranids ARE one organism. One creature made up of many trillions of semi-independant beings/cells, much like a human is made up of trillions of linked cells, that have developed to cooperate with each other as a single vastly complex creature.



bobss said:


> A fuck-off Nid in the void with immense Psycic strength, which conflict with my views.


Oh no, I don't mean that. That'd be naff. I don't think there's a giant Nid called 'the Hive Mind' or anything.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

> Oh no, I don't mean that. That'd be naff. I don't think there's a giant Nid called 'the Hive Mind' or anything.


Thank-you  Thats what i was getting at XD



> The Tyranids ARE one organism. One creature made up of many trillions of semi-independant beings/cells, much like a human is made up of trillions of linked cells, that have developed to cooperate with each other as a single vastly complex creature.


I can agree with this, how everything is interlinked and has a specific function...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Your lack of Necron Fluff shows.


Please don't say things like that Warlock (especially to new members), it just comes across as Rude - If it was intentional or not.

Aside from that Lord Lucan has it spot on.


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

Thanks!

bobss: Yeah, that's what i meant with regards hyper organism.

I think the hive mind does think. However, its 'mind' is so very vast it can't comprehend us on even a species level. Imagine you trying to converse with bacteria, and vice versa. Humans, to a bacterium, would seem like some vast force of nature, utterly impossible to fathom or hope to communicate with.


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## Forsaken Null (Dec 18, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Your lack of Necron Fluff shows.


Oh so true. And nor am I intending to go out of my way to learn about them.

And though Guass weapons may destroy matter, I'm assuming that the Necrons, even upon victory over one hive fleet, would not spend their time eliminating all tyranid carcasses to prevent this. So despite that, Tyranid numbers would not decline to such a degree that they would lose. Maybe not two hive fleets, but certainly one-and-a-half.

Also, the Hive Mind has only ever been noted as a precense in the warp. As far as I've been able to grasp, there is nothing saying it exists in the warp. In fact, the only sure thing about it is that it exists. So in the same sense as you may say its a simple, blockable presence in the warp, I can say it may just surprise you. As far as my understanding of Necrons and Psychic abilities go, they block them out - but Hive Mind abilities are different.

Having limits doesn't neccessarily count, either; they could easily seem limitless, or other Tyranids could be busy devouring other galaxies, meaning (if the Hive Mind found it neccessary to do so) that they could also jump into the fray, bringing with them whatever adaptations and advantages they harvested. Then again, Hive Fleets are few and far between... So it really could end up as lot of recurring fights, depending how the Necrons hold out.

Killing something inside the warp? Fair enough, you got me. But the Hive Mind may not be inside the warp. 

However, if the Tyranids did take over half the galaxy, I still doubt they'd fight. Tyranids would have killed all living things in the area they dominated, so no souls. And as far as I can tell, Tyranids are soulless creatures.

And in response to K3k3000's... erm... response... to Tyranids recycling their own biomass: yes, they do. Otherwise, the practise of two hive fleets fighting and devouring each other would be pointless (which they do).


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

I'm truly sick of people who don't read the fluff properly and then comment on it and misinform more people. (I'll look like a dickhead if I cock this up :laugh

Here's a simple(ish) explanation of the hive mind using an organism analogy:

The hive mind is the Tyranid 'consciousness'. The Hive Tyrants, Dominatrixes and Norn Queens are the 'brain cells' (as they are stated as being most psychically in touch with the hive mind). The lesser synapse creatures (warriors, zoanthropes, etc.) are the relays, or 'nerve cells'. The non-synapse creatures make up the; 'limbs & other organs', of the organism.

In a biological organism the cells will communicate through hormones, electrical signals and neurotransmitters. The 'Tyranid cells' (whole organisms themselves) are not physically close together enough for the hormones, ect to work. So instead the warp is used to 'bridge the gap' between 'Tyranid cells' and allow for the flow of information and commands.

Now the hive mind does not exist in the warp. It exists in it's 'brain cells', but without the warp these 'brain cells' cannot communicate with each other and the consciousness ceases to exist. So the hive mind does not exist in the warp, but it is reliant on it.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

thats a good description. I like that analogy.

Of course there are always speculations about wtf is the warp. I mean its created from like human emotions and stuff? But it exists without it? I'm going to have to go back and read some chaos stuff again and re-figure out how things can 'live' inside the warp.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

LordLucan said:


> Erm, C'tan will NOT starve due to lack of sentient life essense. C'tan can eat stars. It's not as fun as eating life essense admittedly, but the last time their stock of sentient food ran low (due to the enslavers) what did the C'tan do? They didn't exterminate the enslavers. No, they simply waited for the enslavers to leave. Just like they'll do with the Tyranids.


Um nooooo.... during the War with Eldar and Korks, other Psychic races were comming into being. The Enslavers were a very powerful Psychic race that pushed and fought the Ctan back. The Ctan were Forced in Dormancy after Fighting the Enslavers themselves. Hmmmm Nids are like the same thing and the Ctan will fight them too unless they want to starve again.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Please don't say things like that Warlock (especially to new members), it just comes across as Rude - If it was intentional or not.


Your right. I didnt mean to be rude but when reading it comes off pretty douchey. Im sorry and here goes a decent link on 40K fluff


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Considering the limits of Necron Technology have been discussed in this thread, heres a quote which might give us more of an insight:



Dark Creed Page 109 said:


> Half a Galaxy away, an immense black ship suddenly altered its trajectory. It began to accelerate at an exponential rate, swiftly reaching then surpassing, the speed of light. Impossibly, its momentum continued to increase... It passed through dazzling solar systems in the blink of an eye and crossed vast empty tracts of space in seconds. On and on it hurtled, moving faster than any Imperial tracking station could follow.


The Black Ship is a Necron Vessel by the way.

This Black Ship was also able to completley destroy the largest Space Station in Segmentum Obscurus without much effort. This is the kind of power wielded by a single Necron Vessel.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

> And though Guass weapons may destroy matter, I'm assuming that the Necrons, even upon victory over one hive fleet, would not spend their time eliminating all tyranid carcasses to prevent this. So despite that, Tyranid numbers would not decline to such a degree that they would lose. Maybe not two hive fleets, but certainly one-and-a-half.


You're relying on the ineptitude of the necron, which simply doesn't work in a proper "vs. debate." Though it's difficult to gauge how intelligent they are as a race, they're far, far from stupid. By this point, they'd know tyranid could recycle their biomass. The natural course of action would be to eliminate all tyranid carcasses they can access. If the enemy can gain an advantage through performing action "A," then the best counter would be to prevent action "A." It's simple logic, something the necron are more than capable of.

Chances are the necron don't have the ability to completely eliminate a swarm after it's past unless they have a whole lot of time, but their weapons are potent enough that they could, with some time, wipe out enough corpses that that the numbers the tyranids could get back would be insubstantial.



> Also, the Hive Mind has only ever been noted as a precense in the warp. As far as I've been able to grasp, there is nothing saying it exists in the warp. In fact, the only sure thing about it is that it exists. So in the same sense as you may say its a simple, blockable presence in the warp, I can say it may just surprise you. As far as my understanding of Necrons and Psychic abilities go, they block them out - but Hive Mind abilities are different.


I've been unable to find anything to back it up (Shadow _in_ the warp could be more aptly named, in my defense), so, no, the hive mind doesn't exist in the warp as far as we know. We do know, however, that it is a "psychic" presence. Psykers can feel it. It can theoretically be accessed by an outsider, although Chief Librarian Tigurius may be the sole individual capable of it at the moment, provied his predictions aren't "simple" precognition. As far as the hive mind being the collected "brain" of the tyranid super organism, that seems to be the most commonly accepted theory. Apparently there are others.

What's this mean for the necron? Not a whole lot, probably. Without psykers of their own the necron probably can't attack the hive mind in any literal fashion, if it can indeed be attacked directly at all. Unless a C'tan could take down the hive mind, somehow, slapping around a synapse would be the necron's best bet in regards to limiting the hive mind.



> And in response to K3k3000's... erm... response... to Tyranids recycling their own biomass: yes, they do. Otherwise, the practise of two hive fleets fighting and devouring each other would be pointless (which they do).


Like I said, I'm willing to take your word for it. My argument was that it can't possibly be as effecient as an 1:1 ratio. A dead hive tyrant can't provide enough bio-mass to make another hive tyrant, for a number of reasons:
1) Even in a setting where daemons fly about and space elves and space orks do battle, an organism that can recycle 100% of the material it "consumes" is pretty far fetched. 
2) A dead tyranid isn't going to have the same amount of bio-mass as a living one. 
And 3) If the tyranid race could recycle their dead so effeciently, they wouldn't be attacking other races. Attacking other races needlessly for bio-mass they don't actually need means they run the risk of coming across a prey that's too big for them to tackle, when all they'd have to do to ensure the survival of their species is to constantly recycle their own bio-mass. Hence, they must need the bio-mass of non-tyranids in order to keep their species going.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

You seem to all be under the impression that the Tyranids need organic matter (carcasses) to assimilate. The Tyranids essentially strip mine the whole planet of any useful organic and inorganic material. The planet is seeded with special organisms designed to draw up any nutrients from the ground, and once that is complete all the living things on the planet (yes even the other Tyranids and the nutrient absorbing Tyranid plants) are consumed by rippers. The rippers then in turn are digested in special pools that are sucked up by the hive ships. After that the oceans and atmosphere is drained, so even if the majority of Tyranids are gas-ified, their component molecules are still reabsorbed when the atmosphere and oceans are drained.

Similarly burning/incinerating Tyranid bodies then scattering their ashes on the wind would have no affect on the amount of mass absorbed.



K3k3000 said:


> 3) If the tyranid race could recycle their dead so effeciently, they wouldn't be attacking other races. Attacking other races needlessly for bio-mass they don't actually need means they run the risk of coming across a prey that's too big for them to tackle, when all they'd have to do to ensure the survival of their species is to constantly recycle their own bio-mass. Hence, they must need the bio-mass of non-tyranids in order to keep their species going.


Your right, nothing is 100% efficient. Although keep in mind that they aren't just consuming planets for self preservation, they're doing it so they can reproductive too (I'm talking about the Hive Ships). I'd say that they can reabsorb biomass at close to 100% (95-99). Remember they don't just absorb the carcass of the dead creature, they absorb the air and the nutrients in the ground too.


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## oblivion8 (Jun 17, 2009)

> 1) Even in a setting where daemons fly about and space elves and space orks do battle, an organism that can recycle 100% of the material it "consumes" is pretty far fetched.
> 2) A dead tyranid isn't going to have the same amount of bio-mass as a living one.


The amount of biomass lost from the dead tyrant would be so insignificant that it would not matter, it would probably loose 1-3% if that. These losses (if there are any) would easily be replenished from the world bio mass, with much more left to spare.



> 3) If the tyranid race could recycle their dead so effeciently, they wouldn't be attacking other races. Attacking other races needlessly for bio-mass they don't actually need means they run the risk of coming across a prey that's too big for them to tackle, when all they'd have to do to ensure the survival of their species is to constantly recycle their own bio-mass. Hence, they must need the bio-mass of non-tyranids in order to keep their species going.


Although yes, they do want to reproduce, the tyranids (from what I can gather) are similar to the ctan because they have an unquenchable hunger. They wont stop until everything is dead, then they will start eating themselves in a continuous loop, fighting the random bursts of daemons that may come. That would be what would happen if they managed to beat everything else at least...

how many necron are there anyway? The necron were a race before they went robot, so they couldn't be more that several billion could they?, plus some of them have been destroyed so how many could there be left in the tomb worlds?


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## kalin bloodhowl (Dec 2, 2009)

In an all out brawl i'd say the tyranids would win, as the weight in numbers would be too much even for the necrons to handle, however, it the gauss weapons destroy matter, (don't know much about necrons) then it would come at a terrible cost for the tyranids, as they would lose massive stocks of bio-mass.
so both sides would lose, the necrons destroyed and the tyranids too weak to be of any threat
(all of this in my opinion of course:grin


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## Commissar Maximus (Sep 20, 2008)

In my opinion,its not a matter of number,hivemind or biomass.I know much about necrons since i have been fighting them for at least 5 years both on ground and space.Take a cairn tombship alone against a hivefleet.Activate the star pulse generator and i would say that only the nids mothership could survive.Necron tech is to advanced...I think that nids would just get slapped over and over again as limitless and recyclable they could be.
Evolution vs technology...i think tech evolves faster


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Um nooooo.... during the War with Eldar and Korks, other Psychic races were comming into being. The Enslavers were a very powerful Psychic race that pushed and fought the Ctan back.


Nope. The enslavers could not harm the C'tan. However, they were killing everything else. A C'tan explicitly explains this to us in the necron Codex. The C'tan had no need to fight the enslavers, because enslavers are a psychic parasite which uses psykers as warp portals. The enslavers could and can do nothing to the C'tan. And nor would the enslavers want to either. C'tan aren't warp psykers. The enslavers can't use them for anything.



> The Ctan were Forced in Dormancy after Fighting the Enslavers themselves.


No, the Old Ones fought (and lost to) the enslavers. The C'tan CHOSE to go into stasis, because a lifeless galaxy is boring for them. So they went to sleep to wait for new life to evolve. 



> Hmmmm Nids are like the same thing and the Ctan will fight them too unless they want to starve again.


The C'tan CAN'T starve. They eat stars! Unless the Tyranids start eating stars, the C'tan have got nothing to worry about (besides boredom, which is why they went into hybernation originally) 

The C'tan may make human farms, and use them as tasty snacks. However, they don't need them to live. If every life form in the galaxy died, the C'tan would go 'oh well' and wait until new life came back to the galaxy.




Commissar Maximus said:


> Evolution vs technology...i think tech evolves faster


Tyranid evolution takes hours...

Also, we have no idea how powerful top-end Necorn technology is, because the platinum level constructs have yet to be unleashed in the 40K setting. The Void Dragon's soldiers sound fething scary in his WD article!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

oblivion8 said:


> how many necron are there anyway? The necron were a race before they went robot, so they couldn't be more that several billion could they?, plus some of them have been destroyed so how many could there be left in the tomb worlds?


Well most if not all of the ancient Necrontyr were transformed into immortal Necrons. We know that the Necrontyr empire spanned the stars, so I would say quite a few Trillion? (That is obviously just speculation though)

Aside from that there is ways of creating new necrons. Necron Pariahs are essentially created (currently) out of humans who carry the Pariah Gene for example. I also see no reason why new 'Necron Warriors' can't be created the same way as how the Necrontyr became the Necrons.

I think we've established that the Tyranids rely on the Warp just as much as a lot of other races and factions. It is what allows the Hive Mind to communicate and is used by the Tyranids for Warp Travel. The C'tan are known to have planned to seal the Warp from Real Space completley thus rendering the lesser races completley helpless before their wrath. The Tyranids would also be rendered helpless if this came about.

The C'tan are the real strength behind the Necron forces though. Extremley powerful and essentially undefeatable.


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

I agree there. Losing the warp (for Tyranids) would be like us having all our brain cells disconnected at once. We'd be dead. The Tyranids would become notihng but trillions of mindlessly homicidal animals, that would lose all cohesion. Essentially, the Hive would be dead.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Oh no! LordLucan and CotE have formed an unstoppable alliance of fluff knowledge.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

> Oh no! LordLucan and CotE have formed an unstoppable alliance of fluff knowledge.


Chopper Reid, A crowbar, a new Codex by Robin Cruddace and several cans of Stella would solve this...


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

LordLucan said:


> Nope. The enslavers could not harm the C'tan. However, they were killing everything else. A C'tan explicitly explains this to us in the necron Codex. The C'tan had no need to fight the enslavers, because enslavers are a psychic parasite which uses psykers as warp portals. The enslavers could and can do nothing to the C'tan. And nor would the enslavers want to either. C'tan aren't warp psykers. The enslavers can't use them for anything.
> 
> The Enslavers BEAT the Ctan by Consuming there food source, and yes the Ctan are harmed by Psykers and there powers. I dont know where you get this impression they can strole around the battlefields and not be harm by Psykers.
> 
> ...


Your right am Im completly wrong, I concede .


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

> The Enslavers BEAT the Ctan by Consuming there food source, and yes the Ctan are harmed by Psykers and there powers. I dont know where you get this impression they can strole around the battlefields and not be harm by Psykers.


C'Tan are called star vampires for a reason. They prefer souls, but if need be they could easily nom on a few stars until mortal races come by again. Starving a C'tan would require you to destroy a helluva lot of stars, something *no* race is capable of doing, presently. There's a lot of conflicting information out there, admittedly. I know I've seen some out there saying they hibernated in order to avoid starving, but it just makes more sense that they waited around to get a better meal.

C'tan are at most vulnurable and at least suceptible to warp based attacks. Blackstone fortresses, for example, are considered the ideal weapon to use against the C'tan. Much like a Khain Avatar is theoretically suceptible to bullets, though, it would take quite a few psykers or a considerably powerful one to harm a C'tan; on all counts, the blackstone fortress used on the Void Dragon failed to kill it, and the BSF's are some of the most powerful warp artifacts in the galaxy.

That being said, I don't know if the enslavers were capable of warp based attacks, or if their manipulation of their warp powers is more subtle.



> Nids evolve so fast that the Orks give them a run for there money.


It is frequently held true that if all the orks in the galaxy were to band together the rest of the races wouldn't stand a chance. Not sure if this applies to the tyranids or not.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Oh no! LordLucan and CotE have formed an unstoppable alliance of fluff knowledge.





bobss said:


> Chopper Reid, A crowbar, a new Codex by Robin Cruddace and several cans of Stella would solve this...


Haha :grin: You both deserve +rep for this!


K3k3000 said:


> That being said, I don't know if the enslavers were capable of warp based attacks, or if their manipulation of their warp powers is more subtle.


The Enslavers 'possess' psychic mortals and turn them into living warp portals in order so that more enslavers can enter the material realm.

The Enslavers could not directly harm the C'tan or Necrons at all because the C'tan & Necrons arn't psychic by any definition of the word. 



K3k3000 said:


> It is frequently held true that if all the orks in the galaxy were to band together the rest of the races wouldn't stand a chance. Not sure if this applies to the tyranids or not.


Its plausable that the Tyranids are included in such a theory. Although all the Orks of the Universe uniting together is impossible. 

Also remember that Orks inhabit other galaxies and areas outside of the milky way.

Regarding the C'tan - I've always wondered if they are capable of feeding on stars in their Necrodermis forms, or whether they need to be in their natural forms to do so.


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

The nightbringer can turn his necrodermis into a black cloud, which he surrounds a star with, in order to feast. I believe it says this in 'Nightbringer' (correct me if I'm wrong)

Warlock: Again, I will explain. The C'tan cannot be harmed by the enslavers. The enslavers are psychic mind control squids, who kill their prey by controlling their minds and turning them into warp portals. This only works with psykers. The Enslavers cannot starve the C'tan, because the C'tan eat stars. The enslavers did not 'beat' the C'tan in any way. They beat the Old Ones, and killed most of their creations. The C'tan, who are addicted to sentient life force, decided to voluntarily go into stasis, to wait for life to recover from the massive cull. This is in no way a deafeat of the C'tan.

Yes, the C'tan like eating sentient life essense (not souls incidentally. They aren't warp-based). They are addicted to it. The enslavers are the equivalent of a fire burning down all the C'tan's drug farms. The C'tan are annoyed, and just wait for their drug plants to grow back. At no point were the C'tan in danger at all.

Oh, and I have no idea what relevence the orks stalemating the Nids has about the Tyranids evolving super fast. The orks get stronger and bigger the longer they fight and the bigger the fight. The Tyranids eat the ork biomass, and breed bigger and bigger constructs, as wellas more constructs. This increases the size of the war, and hence makes the orks even bigger, and so on an so forth.

The two greatest bio-weapon races in the setting stalemating each other has no bearing upon the current discussion.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

LordLucan said:


> The nightbringer can turn his necrodermis into a black cloud, which he surrounds a star with, in order to feast. I believe it says this in 'Nightbringer' (correct me if I'm wrong)


Interesting. I would read the Ultramarines series if I didn't hate Ultramarines so much  But thanks for clearing that up LL.


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

I hate Ultramarines. However, every other character in the series is brilliant! Also, Dead sky black sun crosses over with Storm of Iron, one of the best CSM books I've ever read!


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

> The two greatest bio-weapon races in the setting stalemating each other has no bearing upon the current discussion.


Agreed. But you assume that they are of equal proportion to start with, which they are not. Hive Fleet Leviathan is much greater in numbers than the Ork population inside the Octavius System, and although I agree that both evolve to counter each other, though Id say this is more of a Tyranid thing. Nid evolution takes bio-mass from its opponents, pressumabley the Norm-Queens analyse this, and begin to breed counters to this particular trait into the genetic codes of the Tyranids, or, creating seperate species, specifically designed to counter, if this threat is deemed big, and common enough. Where as Ork populations just grow, with the Orks becomming harder. There equipment stays the same, and they rely upon scavanged aumminition/arms.

On the subject of Orks. Once all the C`tan awake (Although with Mars being the center of the Mechanicus and close to Terra Im betting that the Void Dragon will get destroyed after an immense battle by the cream of the Imperium against Platenum(sp?) Necron constructs, a battle-that sounds Fucking epic) and the full force of the Necrons brought to bare then every Ork will suddenly stop, something will click in his mind, and they will begin to grind the metallic-bastards into the ground once again...?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

LordLucan said:


> The nightbringer can turn his necrodermis into a black cloud, which he surrounds a star with, in order to feast. I believe it says this in 'Nightbringer' (correct me if I'm wrong)
> 
> Dont no never read it.
> 
> ...


Again you are right and I am wrong k:.


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

Firstly: I never once claimed to know it all.

Secondly: No, nowhere does it state the enslavers can't use alpha levels to attack the c'tan. However, Enslavers don't use psykers to attack the C'tan. They convert psykers into warp portals. Thus, an alpha level psyker would simply make a very handy portal for an enslaver. However, yes, there's nothing stopping the enslavers using psykers against the C'tan. Yet, they don't need to attack the C'tan, since neither faction fought each other. The enslavers killed the majority of the psychic races, the C'tan got bored with this lack of life, so went into stasis.




> So why didnt the Ctan kill the Enslavers, hmmmm, maybe they can't.


They will eventually kill the enslavers, if they can get the great warding to work. However, at the moment, I agree that the C'tan have no ability to harm the enslavers. It doesn't matter though, because my point is that the C'tan didn't lose to the enslavers, because they didn't oppose the enslavers, and the enslavers also didn't fight the C'tan (because there's no reason to)



> I think what they did is proof of them conceding cause they couldnt stop them. My opponion and you have yours, its not written anywhere one way or the other.


Fair enough. I don't claim to be an authority on this stuff.



On th eork point: Tyranids do take hours to evolve. For instance, say the first wave of hormagaunts on a world land on a planet with atmosphere they can't breathe, and they die. The second wave will evolve to be able to breathe.

All I said was that Tyranids evolve within hours. And they do. Orks being able to counter Tyranid evolution doesn't disprove that Tyranids evolve quickly. Rapid evolution isn't some sort of insta-win button.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

LordLucan said:


> Secondly: No, nowhere does it state the enslavers can't use alpha levels to attack the c'tan. However, Enslavers don't use psykers to attack the C'tan. They convert psykers into warp portals. Thus, an alpha level psyker would simply make a very handy portal for an enslaver. However, yes, there's nothing stopping the enslavers using psykers against the C'tan. Yet, they don't need to attack the C'tan, since neither faction fought each other. The enslavers killed the majority of the psychic races, the C'tan got bored with this lack of life, so went into stasis.
> 
> OK, I was getting fustrated trying to find where Fluff says Enslaver dont use Psykers as weapon, Ive read in the RT days they could possess other players psykers and use them as weapons. Still no clue how true that is as a handful of people seem to know the RT days.
> 
> ...


Now I think about it, its a pointless debate on Ctan and Enslavers as there is little to nothing about it. BL needs to make a Series called War in Heaven like the HH novels.


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

They can possess psykers I think (if the WD creature feature with them in was anything to go by iirc).

You make a good point about the dearth of enslaver/C'tan relations. e are both extrapolating. I apologise if I came across as arrogant or anything. No harm done though eh?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

LordLucan said:


> They can possess psykers I think (if the WD creature feature with them in was anything to go by iirc).
> 
> You make a good point about the dearth of enslaver/C'tan relations. e are both extrapolating. I apologise if I came across as arrogant or anything. No harm done though eh?


None:so_happy:


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

Huzzah! *throws hat in air*


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## Forsaken Null (Dec 18, 2009)

*Dundundun.*

Something sickeningly beautiful has happened; Tyranids (more specifically, Pyrovores) can feast upon metals and rocks.

I quote from the Pyrovore's 'autobiography' page, 49, from the codex;

*So powerful are the acidic fluids inside a Pyrovore that they even feast on metals and rocks, any mineral the Hive Fleet may require.*

Meaning (from my point of view), Necrons _can_ be considered biomass within the Hive Mind. Sure, it only really applies to Pyrovores, but I'm confident that Hive Fleets would willingly dispense the monsters en mass if it were the case.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Good point, one problem though, when a Necron dies it phases out so the body can be repaired. Only 1 out of 100+ Necs leave their bodies behind. So the Nids would still loose tons of mass. I want to see a Nec fleet battle a Hive Fleet and see who has the badder ships.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Good point, one problem though, when a Necron dies it phases out so the body can be repaired. Only 1 out of 100+ Necs leave their bodies behind.


Dunno about the numbers, but you're right about the phasing out. Necron will phase out if killed. To give you an example of how difficult it is to kill one permenantly, those who don't are so badly damaged that there's almost nothing left for the Imperium to study. I think it's accurate to say that no race, Tyranid included, have a means to reliably damage the necron enough to put a serious dent in their numbers, at least not immediately.



> I want to see a Nec fleet battle a Hive Fleet and see who has the badder ships.


Necron fleets aren't beaten by strength, but numbers. A hive fleet may or may not have enough ships to take down a necron fleet, but you can bet the necron have the badder ships.


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## oreomaster3 (Mar 13, 2009)

how about the carebears come out of nowhere, shoot lasers from their tummy and kick evreyone's a** 

yep, that would be freaking awsome :biggrin:


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

*The Necrons will win. Here's why...*

Warning. Long post with some self-made theories.


The Necrontyr, the former selves of the Necron, were a race that had short lifespans due to their home world having high radiation levels emitted from a nearby star.

Eventually, the Necrontyr race came upon the Old ones, a highly psychic race with seemingly immortal lifespans, and as a result began to despise them out of jealousy. This led to the two races going to war with the Necrontyr losing due to the Old ones mastery of the web way, their long lifespans, and psychic abilities despite the former's highly advanced technology. 

Key points:


The Necrons always coveted immortality. 

The Necrons as a result of their jealousy towards the Old Ones, began to despise *all life* because their lifespans essentially were so minuscule that all life forms outrivaled them in terms of how long they lived before dying of old age.

The Necrons jealousy and anger at the fates dealt to them was the sole reason as to why their scientific drive propelled them to heights of technology never before seen. 

Eventually however, upon encountering the Ctan and undergoing mixed feelings of fear and adoration towards them, gave up on trying to find a cure to increasing their lifespans through technology. 

So they resorted to bargaining with the Ctan, a decision their logical judgments would have denounced had they not have been blinded by the sweet seductive words of the Ctan, their hatred of the Old Ones and their desperation to turn the tides of their losing war. 


The Necrons _technically _were not deceived by the Ctan, for they got their wish to become immortal and witnessed the destruction of their hated foes. And because their race degenerated from one that had a noble cause of furthering the survival of their species to one bent on the destruction of another, they forsook their free will, now whether or not they knew what the Ctan really meant when they spoke of immortality is questionable, it could be argued that their rage clouded their judgments or they being beings of such intellect knew the costs.

Now that we have a basic understanding of what drove the Necrontyr to become what they are, slaves embodied within highly advanced metallic shells, we can come to the conclusion as to why the Necrons will *without a doubt* defeat the Tyranids if it ever came down to it.

The Necrontyr specialized in technology throughout their wars with the Old Ones that dealt quick death to their foes, fitting that a short lived race would devise such weaponry against long living foes. Their other technology also revolved around efficiency and most importantly, speed as evident with their ships capable of operating at faster than light levels.

Their Gauss technology strips all living matter of their cellular structure or something along those lines, basically it strips physical structures on a cellular level and thus leaves nothing behind. So with a war against a strictly organic race, no carcasses could possibly be left behind. 

For those of the idea that their Gauss weaponry disintegrates physical matter only where the beam is focused on (leaving holes in carcasses), then let us take into consideration that the Tomb Worlds of the Necrons mostly reside on dead worlds.

The Necrons have become the embodiments of barren, and lifeless death, silent killers that dissects life with a methodical precision void of emotions. They do not take pleasure in hearing the screams of their victims or their pleas for mercy as they are soulless, the pinnacles of immortality through technology and not supernatural elements in a chaos ridden galaxy/universe. 

Their whole culture began to revolve around death, a testament to their short lifespans and so they without a doubt developed all manners of technology that revolved around mechanical death (IE pylons, towers, crystalline structures and devices that strip planets of life). 

Could this not be the reason why the Tomb Worlds mostly reside on barren rocks, the Necron's technology wiping out life and preventing its recurrence on the world as they lay dormant? While there are Tomb Worlds with thriving Human populations, perhaps the Necron devices that prevent life from occurring broke down or were never implemented in those particular worlds or perhaps other reasons exist.

So what I am trying to say is the Necrons probably have devices, similar to how Tyranids send down spores to planets to terraform them only with the former, their devices strip life and give nothing in return.

While the Tyranids work in a similar manner in that they absorb 'life' through a cellular level, the Necrons simply abolish life on a cellular level. Both leave barren rocks in their wake, but the Necrons choose to do so while the Tyranids do so only because of the way their hive fleets function.

The Tyranids are the opposite of the Necrons in terms of efficiency, for the Tyranids cannot sustain their race in the manner through which they do so, devouring all sentient life and leaving no means of regeneration. 

The Tyranid army is triumphant in some cases due to sheer numbers, not due to their organisms being efficient. For example, one Eldar warrior can take out ten to twenty or more Tyranid warriors due to their marital skill and amongst other abilities. The Necrons are far more efficient killers than Orks, Tau, Humans, etc. 

The Necrons are efficient in a cold, mathematical way, their every soldier considered _sacred _in a sense in that they heal on the battlefield at explosive rates and teleport back to Tomb Worlds to regenerate only when their built in recovery systems cannot cope with the damage they sustained whereas the Tyranids consume the dead and regurgitate up the nutrient paste into a gene pool to create new organisms. This is assuming that the Necron Gauss technology leaves a few traces of organic matter on the battlefield and even so it would be far too inefficient to consume a few scraps of organic matter. 

Also let us take into consideration that the Necrons are not organic in nature and leave nothing for the Tyranids to devour as they would while combating Humans, Orks, Eldar, etc. We haven't seen the full extent of the Necron army or their technology so the possibilities they have are endless. 

Someone mentioned that the Tyranids have a certain creature that devours metal. First off, this is most likely to derive the minerals of the metal to develop the carapaces perhaps of their drone warriors but the Necrons are not made of any metal we can come to think of but rather a highly advanced carapace (Necrodermis) that simply resembles metal, and thus the name 'living metal'.

The Tyranid race are parasites by every definition of the world and thus are not efficient and rely on other races to bolster their forces and to literally sustain their ever growing race with no means of self reproduction or growing other sources of food. They lack the technological means to do so and cannot hold worlds captive to produce goods for them due to their savage animal-like intellects.

Were a battle to be fought between the two races, the Necrons, with their superior technology and intellect would decimate the Tyranids, a feral ant-like colony with the instinctive urges to feed and devour to survive. The Necrons are the oldest race in WH40K and have eons of military experience while the Tyranids learn and fight like feral pack dogs. Their ships can travel to any point in the galaxy in mere moments and their weaponry is simply too powerful and can wipe out huge numbers of Tyranid swarms before they even get into range.

The Hive Mind of the Tyranids is speculated to being a collective conscious of the species. A theory of mine is that at one point n time the Tyranids all had their own consciousness but decided to pool it onto one massive entity to further the survival of their race similarly to how the Necrons forsook their free will for a means to deal with the Old Ones. Over time the Hive Mind began to develop cannibalistic and feral instinctive urges as the Tyranids devoured more and more alien lifeforms. 

With the Tyranids being somewhat psychically attuned by nature, and their decision of pooling their consciousness into one entity, the result was one massive influx of psychic power that renders all other physic telepathy not of their own mute (the Shadow of the Warp).

The Necrons however, having dealt with a superior race of massive psychic power, developed the pariah gene, supposedly implanting it within the human race at one point in time to use against the Old Ones or perhaps to combat other psychic races in the future. Nevertheless, the Necrons have developed ways with dealing with psychic races with this Pariah gene and they have developed other means as well.


In closing, the Necrons are the agents of anti-matter in the galaxy, they take life without mercy and out of hatred they once felt while the Tyranids take life in order to survive and flourish. The Necrons can only be defeated by a technological and psychic race such as the Old Ones did before being destroyed by the Enslaver parasites. 

The Eldar are far too low in numbers to do so and are a dying race, and so it is without a doubt that the Imperium is the only candidate given time to develop, while the Tau have almost no psychic abilities and refuse to deal with the warp and the Orks are neither a highly advanced technological species or psychically attuned one.


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## Forsaken Null (Dec 18, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Good point, one problem though, when a Necron dies it phases out so the body can be repaired. Only 1 out of 100+ Necs leave their bodies behind. So the Nids would still loose tons of mass. I want to see a Nec fleet battle a Hive Fleet and see who has the badder ships.


Fair enough, though I don't quite see how a Necron dying has much of an effect; I'd imagine a Pyrovore willingly eating its prey alive while its bio-weapon fights.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Know what would be funny? If the Nids evolve to eat Necs whole only to have the Necs Phase out and bombs phase in their place. That would be awsome rule there.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Forsaken Null said:


> Fair enough, though I don't quite see how a Necron dying has much of an effect; I'd imagine a Pyrovore willingly eating its prey alive while its bio-weapon fights.


It means that as the necron are being digested they'd eventually suffer enough damage for them to phase out, leaving very little if any biomass for the pyrovor. Even if that weren't the case, having a living machine inside of you with weaponry that tears matter apart at a molecular level is a very, very bad idea.


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## Hivemind Demeter (Nov 6, 2007)

The VERY VERY long post up there is kinda silly.
It is clearly geared towards Necrons there, as it totally missed on it's accusations on Tyranids.
To think that the Tyranids lack any semblance of military strategy is to be horribly wrong.
The new fluff of Tyranid generals and inde characters is that they are reborn into new bodies with all the knowledge of their previous times.
Essentially, making all their generals immortal. Hmm, sound familiar?
Now take into account the fact that Tyranid generals are ALWAYS embroiled in war, until the day that their hive fleet is destroyed.
Even then, their consciousness is taken back into the Hivemind and remade.

Most of the Necrons have been sleeping for GOD KNOWS how long.
Seems to me that the Tyranids have an up and up on Necrons in the War Tacticum area.

Hivefleet Jorgumundar (sp?) showed up exemplary tactics, directing meteor showers to a planet while they sent their mycetic spores in. Nids burrow, Nids fly, Nids crawl, Nids infiltrate, Nids double their numbers- WHILE ON THE BATTLEFIELD!

But regardless of all of the above, I don't think that the Necrons and the Tyranids will ever fight like this.
As it's been said, Nids have no souls for Necrons.
Necrons have no biomass for Nids.

I personally believe that the Necrons created the Tyranids before they went dormant, seeing as the Tyranids have the same goal. After the Tyranids destroy all that exists in the universe, and are the only living creatures left? Then the Necrons awaken and kill them. The Nids sit there and accept the slaughter. 

There was some speculation some time ago about the Hivemind being one of the lost C'Tan or something, and I personally like that idea.

But if there was a be-all end-all battle between the two, I believe that the Tyranids would win. IT appears that this fleet bearing down on the Imperium, the one that outnumbers the Imperium some bajillion to one, is JUST A SCOUTING fleet from the main Tyranid hoard. 

Read the fourth ed codex on nids, and you'll see that.
As of right now, people are worried that Nids will wipe out all races of WH40k, but that's just playing with a small fraction of their army.
What about with the rest of their gigantic army that is still coming towards our galaxy?

And then what about ALL OF THE REST OF THE FLEETS that aren't part of the main army? All the fleets that infested worlds and were left behind, all of the fleets wandering on their own, all of the fleets functioning alone by the will of the Hivemind.

Truly, the vastness of the Tyranids is terrifying just to comprehend.

BUT WAIT- THERE'S MORE!

Tyranid advance units have been seen in planets from.... THE OTHER SIDE of the current Tyranid advance. Ymgarl Genestealers were thought to be creatures native to the planets and moons they were found on. The current Tyranid invasion is coming from the other direction though...?

Could that mean that the Tyranids started WAAAAAAAAAAY on the other side that they are coming from, came down, wiped out all of the planets around here LOOOOOONG ago, weeeeent far and away that way until they got bored, were getting to far from the hivemind, or met a new challenger far more powerful than anything we've EVER known, and then started to come back? It's clear they've been here before.

Who knows how ancient the Tyranids are?

Just my 2 cents. :3


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Hivemind Demeter said:


> Read the fourth ed codex on nids, and you'll see that.
> As of right now, people are worried that Nids will wipe out all races of WH40k, but that's just playing with a small fraction of their army.
> What about with the rest of their gigantic army that is still coming towards our galaxy?
> 
> And then what about ALL OF THE REST OF THE FLEETS that aren't part of the main army? All the fleets that infested worlds and were left behind, all of the fleets wandering on their own, all of the fleets functioning alone by the will of the Hivemind.


That's not actually an advantage for the tyranid, since the necron's main force, weapons and troops included, have yet to be seen as well. So we don't know just how many of either race there are or what sort of firepower they have or even the advantages either side will gain when the rest of the hive fleet arrives/the sleeping C'tan wake up. So far, all we can assume is:
1) The tyranid vastly out number the necron.
2) The necron vastly out-gun the tyranid.


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## Hivemind Demeter (Nov 6, 2007)

K3k3000 said:


> That's not actually an advantage for the tyranid, since the necron's main force, weapons and troops included, have yet to be seen as well. So we don't know just how many of either race there are or what sort of firepower they have or even the advantages either side will gain when the rest of the hive fleet arrives/the sleeping C'tan wake up. So far, all we can assume is:
> 1) The tyranid vastly out number the necron.
> 2) The necron vastly out-gun the tyranid.


Point taken. : )
It's a battle of the unknown factors.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

GabrialSagan said:


> Do the Nids have souls? If they do then they are the biggest harvest the necrons can imagine. If not then the necrons would ignore them. The nids don't care about necrodermis, it does not provide them biomass. Its a race to see who can wipe out all life first.


The c`tan do not feed on souls. A soul is composed of psychic energy. What the c`tan feed on, what the necrons harvest, is actually physical energy. They feed on the bioelectric energy of sentient races. Different emotions cause different body reactions and produce different "flavours" so to speak. Hence the Nightbringer`s fondness of inflicting terror and despair before it feeds.

'You do not matter. Your death is not worth inflicting, but I will inflict it anyway."

BTW, I think the nids will win. Warp energy can kill a c`tan, and if you`ve read my post regarding the origins of the nids, you`ll know that I believe that is precisely the tyranids` objective.:scare:


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

this still going?


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I believe chaos nids will destroy us all, and after where all dead the necrons will go around arranging the bodies in amusing poses for their insane gods.?


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## rattler25 (Mar 27, 2010)

The most effective way to beat Nids is in space. If a hive fleet shows up on your door step and if you have the ground troops to stop the first wave the hive fleet will just keep sending more waves until you are over run or they run out of food to make more troops. By killing Nid ships you take away several planets worth of bio mass. Think about how munch energy is spent to take a planet.

A Nid fleet burns through food,
1. Traveling from star to star.
2. Making ground troops to attack a planet.
3. Getting them down to that planet (any space defense systems)
4. Fighting to kill all life on the planet.
5. Turning all the bio mass on said planet in to useable food.
6. Getting the useable food back up the hive ship.
7. Repairing damage from 1-6.

That whole system burns lots of energy to maintain, that is why the take all of a planets boi mass. Take out a planet or ten that are in the way of a Hive and hit them over and over again in space and the Nids lose ships that they have now food to rebuild.

Necron ships in BFG use faster than light to move from star to star. IG uses the warp to drop in and out neat the edgy of star systems. Nids go in to hibernation until they show up at the next star system then they wake up and wipe it out. IF the is true (my books are 2,000 miles away right now) Necrons can find them in the space between star systems and take them on in battles where Nids have no food to us to use to recover losses with. IG, Orcs, Eldar, and Tau do not travel through that part of the galaxy and will thus never see the results of the battles. The hive fleets will just stop and no one will know why, and the Necron harvest of all life will just keep going.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

On a interesting side note as some have already alliterated to the necrons are in many ways the ultimate anti nid, since the main advantage to nids is that they can obsorb biomass to recap their losses, and regrow their forces. After all the bulk of a tyranid force or expendable crap units, that when used against the crons would cost the hive fleet considerable when taking into account the necrons weapons disintegrate matter making lost tyranid units completely useless to the nids since they can't reabsorb their biomass.

All this isn't even taking into account the complete lack of biomass in the necrons tomb world, and their forces. I mean any encounter with the necrons would cost the tyranids horrifically since their is absolutely no benefit in fighting the necrons for them. Hell we haven't even taken into account that with no concern for biological concerns like radiation or food (So many nids means no concern about loosing a food source) I could really see the necrons deploying weapons on a global scale to purge all biological life if they started to loss.

In closing if it ever did come down to just nids vs necrons, the necrons would win over the course of eons because of their vary nature, matter of fact if the nids did ever destroy all other races and the necrons fully awoke tyranids would become the sheep and necrons the Shepard. After all no force is more poorly suited to fight necrons then the Tyranids.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I withdraw my earlier vote for the tyranids. Though it pains me, I must concede that my favourite army would indeed probably lose out to my second.
Not all bad though. At least our souls won`t burn forever in the warp. 

(YOU SUCK, CHAOS! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!)


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