# Thousand Sons Dreadnoughts



## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Where the Thousand Sons are concerned, the background give in Codex:Chaos Space Marines is that Ahriman and his Sorcerer mates carried out this all powerful spell to prevent mutation. Unfortunately said spell reduced all the psychially challenged marines to empty suits of armour.

Now given that some of the Chaos Dreadnoughts must be pre-heresy, could you field a Thousand Sons dread that in terms of rules would act like a Thousand Son marine yet still have all the abilites of a dreadnought provided it's in range of a Sorcerer, kind of like a Chaos equvialent of a Wraithlord?


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

i have seen thousand sons drednoughts before but as for the rules i am at a loss as to why they would be different from every other chaos dred


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

I would say that because the Dreadnought is basically operated by a dead body they would not have been affected by the rubic, the rubic was designed to prevent mutation and has only ever been indicated as affecting those that could be affected by mutation, because of this it is unlikely that the dreadnoughts would be in any way different to any other CSM dreadnoughts


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## AzraelJahannam (Jun 28, 2008)

However, the body of the marine interred is very much alive, he is simply horribly incapacitated, so in fact, he is easily subject to mutation, and therefore the rubric as well. However, there are no alternative rules for a Thousand Sons dred. 

My thoughts are that it SHOULD act in one of two ways (Homebrew rules alert), depending on the nature of the individual interred. 

(A) It was weak minded and incapable of resisting the rubric and is therefore a borderline mindless automaton within an automaton. I would say represent this with the dred being subject to the sorcerer commands rules if not within 12 or 24 inches of a sorcerer, and invulnerable to crew shaken and crew stunned results as there is nothing to stun within, the marine's trapped soul is not subject to such earthly phenomena, and any bolt weapons armed have the inferno bolt special rule. 

(B) It was a strong-minded psycher, and is therefore a terrible foe indeed. His mind completely unhampered by the normal regimes of life, these long dead psycher marines (who would no doubt be revered as great minds and honored beholders of knowledge in contrast to other marine chapters who see them as mere tools of war as the Thousand Sons would view one of the rubric-fried dreds) would have centuries to hone their witchcrafts and arcane knowledge, releasing them upon the battlefield from within their secure shell, no doubt filled with demonic psychic enhancers and the such. Therefore the sorcerer dred would have access to two of the psychic powers normally allowed to a tzeench marked sorcerer (leadershiip 10), a 4+ invul save, and be immune to perils of the warp, and any bolt weapons armed have inferno bolts.

Thats my take on it anyways...


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

my answer would be, no, it works like it says in the rules... because it says so in the rules.

How it *should* work is as you say, in the same way as a normal K-Son, but bigger and slower. But it doesn't. Because no-one at GW thought it was worth doing special classes of K-Son everything-that-a-marine-could-be-inside-when-the-rubric-was-cast, I figure.

:by the book cyclops:

EDIT: and I figure any psychic in a Dread = a Daemon Prince. So would use the rules for a Daemon Prince.


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

It's a vehicle it doesn't get armour or invulnerable saves, and no dreadnought even if it did have a psycher inside it has ever shown any ability to still use psychic powers, and to say they are still alive is probably pushing it, while outside the dreadnought they cannot do anything and have no higher brain function, more than anything the dreadnoughts appear to run off the instinct of the warrior in the sarcophagus, hence why you never get any leading battles despite them being both strong and generally having powerful warriors within the sarcophagus, if the Thousand Sons were to have any of your proposed psycher dreadnoughts then they would surely have been mentioned in the fluff or had rules made up for them, or even had forgeworld make models for them. They are very unlikely to exist, and even if the rubic did affect them it would have a similar affect to having a lobotomised zerker in a sarcophagus, and that affect is non. It would be a nice thing to make rules for however. The other thing to consider is the fact that dreadnoughts have no leadership value suggesting that they don't exactly think about what they are doing, and with a ld value you would have to assume they failed all psychic tests, then failed perils of the warp, so really the only thing you could achieve from using psychic powers is -1 wound, which is impossible for a dreadnought.


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## AzraelJahannam (Jun 28, 2008)

Zondarian said:


> It's a vehicle it doesn't get armour or invulnerable saves, and no dreadnought even if it did have a psycher inside it has ever shown any ability to still use psychic powers, and to say they are still alive is probably pushing it, while outside the dreadnought they cannot do anything and have no higher brain function, more than anything the dreadnoughts appear to run off the instinct of the warrior in the sarcophagus, hence why you never get any leading battles despite them being both strong and generally having powerful warriors within the sarcophagus, if the Thousand Sons were to have any of your proposed psycher dreadnoughts then they would surely have been mentioned in the fluff or had rules made up for them, or even had forgeworld make models for them. They are very unlikely to exist, and even if the rubic did affect them it would have a similar affect to having a lobotomised zerker in a sarcophagus, and that affect is non. It would be a nice thing to make rules for however. The other thing to consider is the fact that dreadnoughts have no leadership value suggesting that they don't exactly think about what they are doing, and with a ld value you would have to assume they failed all psychic tests, then failed perils of the warp, so really the only thing you could achieve from using psychic powers is -1 wound, which is impossible for a dreadnought.


Firstly Zondarion. Read the fluff. Dreadnoughts are often brought out of their long sleeps between battles to give sage advice regarding battle tactics etcetera and have their great intellects intact in loyalist chapters. They aren't brain dead organically infused robots, those are servitors thank you good sir. They arent run by the instincts of the soldier, they are rational, often intelligent, great warriors, it is the way they are treated in most chaos chapters that drives them insane. Read the damn codex.

Secondly. Just because specific psycher dreadnoughts have not been mentioned in codexes does not mean they don't exist, it is only recently that a chaplain dreadnought has been done in forgeworld, and games workshop has many holes yet to fill in this rich and expansive game, hence the reason one can invent armies and chapters etc, because the universe is so damn big and there is so much to say regarding it.

Thirdly. The Thousand Sons being intelligent, generally rational, and respectful of knowledge would not just treat a fellow fallen sorcerer like a piece of machinery to waste away into madness as just another butchery machine like the less refined chapters. They would see a fantastic mind that must be preserved and would thus treat it with due reverence, maintaining him, providing him with the texts he requires to view through his new autosences, and properly infusing his sarcophagus with the appropriate psychically resonant materials (think psychic hood) etcetera. Giving him the same reverance as a loyalist marine might for a fallen hero of his kin. And thus being a rational, strong minded sorcerer still, will have not fallen victim to the curse. (and may very well have been interred into the dreadnought long after the curse).

Fourthly. Eldar vehicles have had certain shields, and rules have been released giving variouse ork and imperial vehicles crude shields that provide invulnerable saves. Enough said.

Fifthly. I explicitly stated that the dreadnought would be given a leadership value of 10, as of course it doesn't already have one. Have you ever heard of an exception?? And to follow that I also stated he would not suffer from perils of the warp, so again you have demonstrated your inept reading skills to match your obviously extensive knowledge of fluff, as well as the nature of the game itself. I will expand on this point however, the need not to have to take perils of the warp tests is due to this sorcerers obvious blessings given to him by tzeench as well as the multitude of wards and protective incantations worked into his armor and sarcophagus.

Sixthly. There is in fact a great difference between a gibbering insane angry tortured prisoner of a dreadnought that risks going firefrenzy every now and then and a mindless automaton that has been reduced to ash and not only requires direction to move, but also is not PHYSICALLY PRESENT and thus not subject to being affected by minor damage that causes stun and shaken results so therefore even the basic tzeench dreadnought would act quite differently than the standard chaos dreadnought.

Zondarion. I give a bonus provided purely for your benefit, a friendly series of words containing a rich fountain of knowledge that will aid you in your limitless journey through life. Don't... and I say it again to prevent confusion... DO NOT open your mouth (or hit your keyboard) unless you have anything intelligent worth saying, and have thought of it for great length beforehand.


*Cleaning blood off axe cyclopse*


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## AzraelJahannam (Jun 28, 2008)

Quotation of a message sent to me from Zondarian 
"Just because someone's opinion differs from your own does not mean that they have nothing useful to say. He asked for opinions and having read up on every single codex (owning them all) I gave an answer which I thought was suitable. And if you understood the fluff you would understand that the chaos forces, have a limited ability to fix technology and an even more limited ability to create new technologies to allow a dreadnought to access psychic powers, just because the Imperium can make chaplain dreadnoughts doesn't mean that chaos forces have the ability to do the same thing. And the chaos space marines are mere play things of the gods, while Tzeentch would have the power to give a dreadnought an invulnerable save doesn't mean he would. He would be much more likely to make himself a new daemon follower or bless new CSM recruits with his gifts. And as for the great warriors thing while in general I agree with you the Thousand Sons are less likely to see them as a great warrior but as a sorcerer who has failed to stay alive. Again while the loyalists are seen as having the power to wake sarcophagi it is unlikely that the CSM's will have the same technology, they are running pre-heresy technology in the forces and care more about fighting than creating new technologies to do something that is of little benefit to them in the short term."



*Sigh* I'm just going to answer this personal message here to to clear up any future questions. 
Pre Heresy technology is in many ways superior to present day, and it is said that the Thousand Sons have the best records of those days of almost any other chaos legion. Hence yes, they would have the technology to do what Loyalist marines can do regarding dreadnoughts as (get this) dreadnoughts and their workings are pre-heresy technology. The chaplain dreadnought was an example in that it is a new forge world release, demonstrating that new stuff is coming up all the time from GW, and being invented by their staff, there was no mention of an actual chaplain dreadnought's rules officially before then. Tzeench also blesses his followers who have served him well, and will take care of those playing pieces that he finds particularily valuable, and wouldnt be the first God to help his followers when near death and Khorn brought Kharn back to life after he died and Slaanesh did the same for Lucius. Also, the sorcerer would have already had the psychic powers before he was mortally injured, and so the powers aren't 'given' to him when he becomes a dred, he already has them. And all Chaos dreds are awake, just most of them are insane, the loyalists just usually let their dreds sleep away the centuries until they are needed next. all dreds are awake on the battlefield. Finally, a fellow sorcerer will respect the fact that this wounded one has knowledge, that's all the Thousand Sons generally do respect, and will quite possibly inter him in a sarcophagus to both allow him to continue his work as well as to benefit off of him if he is a particularly renown and exceptional TS Sorcerer. Chaos Marines still have honour amongst themselves, they have a solidarity, a combined purpose within their legions, and will help their wounded etc, they aren't all madmen, they just have a diff religion.


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## AzraelJahannam (Jun 28, 2008)

Red Orc said:


> my answer would be, no, it works like it says in the rules... because it says so in the rules.
> 
> How it *should* work is as you say, in the same way as a normal K-Son, but bigger and slower. But it doesn't. Because no-one at GW thought it was worth doing special classes of K-Son everything-that-a-marine-could-be-inside-when-the-rubric-was-cast, I figure.
> 
> ...


That would be a BADASSED conversion for a daemon prince man.... Holy crap.... I sense a hole in my wallet about to form.... Must.... have... forgeworld models.... to convert..........


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

While private messages are inheirently private there is nothing that keeps them from being drug out into the public, but enough going back and forth, both of you have different opinions on things DEAL WITH IT.

I am sure the OP will take whenever he wants from it and make his own decision. Is it possible? Yes. Have we seen it? No.


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## AzraelJahannam (Jun 28, 2008)

Bah, djinn24 is right, that exchange was a tad childish, my most sincere apologies Zondarion.


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## Alex (Jan 19, 2008)

There are rules somewhere (can't find them at the moment) for a librarian venerable dreadnought for thousand sons for a pre-heresy campaign weekend. He knows any two psychic powers from the SM codex and has a force weapon that he uses on a Ld of 10( any failed tests give an automatic glancing hit.) Of course thats pre-heresy so it would have to be slightly different for a post-heresy dreadnought, and your opponent would have to allow it to be used.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

AzraelJahannam said:


> That would be a BADASSED conversion for a daemon prince man.... Holy crap.... I sense a hole in my wallet about to form.... Must.... have... forgeworld models.... to convert..........


All credit for the idea must go to Galahad for his sterling work in this thread. Not original I'm afraid...

:fessing up cyclops:


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Well, the true forces of the Thousand Sons are not represented in the 4th Edition CSM codex. Sad, but true. The Legions are missing. 

Now, look at the Emperor's Children Warband Apoc Datasheet. This, IMHO, represents a 'pure' EC force, and the dreadnoughts carry sonic weapons (just like they are suppose to be able to by the older legion fluff). 

THAT said, I don't see why someone couldn't create a Apocalypse Datasheet for a Rubric Dreadnought or a Tson Sorcerer Dreadnought. I mean, you could field it right next to your Rubric Terminators and your other custom Tson stuff. But the details of that would belong in the Custom Rules area (or the Apoc area).

The point of the game is, after all, to have fun and make cool models.


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

I would also like to apologize AzraelJahannam and whoevers thread this is because the arguement didn't contribute to the thread. However I feel it is unlikely that GW would release models for such a thing however if they were to I am convinced that it would be a special character rather than being able to use many in one army, there just wouldn't be many of them left around 10k years after the rubic was cast, as there are rumours of Legion based CSM dex's then this idea could become a reality, I doubt if will but at the same time hope that they do make it.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

I think that you're right that it would have to be an _extremely_ rare occurrance. I like Cam's idea of an Apocalypse datasheet however... an idea begins to form... something like a formation of 3 Dreads, 2 "Rubric" Dreads and a "Sorceror" Dread, the Rubric Dreads being a 'bodyguard' for the Sorceror. Not sure how it would work in practice... but I'd want the Sorceror to be able to draw strength from his retainers (allocate wounds to them and so forth). 

I can see them being vulnerable to apocalypse pie-plates, but it would be funky I'm sure. Hmm, I can see some pondering is in order.

:big red cyclops:


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

Well I have quickly come up with some rules for a Thousand Sons Psyker Dreadnought.

Tigran, Warmachine of the Thousand Sons-220 points

WS-5
BS-5
Front-13
Side-13
Rear-11
Strength-6
Initiative-4
Leadership-10
Attacks-4

Unit Type
Vehicle (Walker)
Wargear- 2x Dreadnought Close Combat arm incorporating a twin-linked bolter
Smoke Launcher
Searchlight

Special Rules
Venerable
Inferno Bolts
Crazed
Psyker
Protection of Tzeentch

Psychic Powers
Inferno Cannon
Warptime
Wind of Chaos

Psyker- Tigran may use 2 psychic powers per turn. If a perils of the Warp test is failed then he suffers a glancing hit, this hit is not affected by the Protection of Tzeentch or Venerable rule.
Protection of Tzeentch- After a glancing or penetrating hit is suffered on a D6 roll of 5+ this hit is lowered by one. (Penetrating becomes Glancing, Glancing becomes a failed hit)
Inferno Cannon- If this psychic power is used Tigran may not use any other shooting attacks during the turn, he also may not use any other psychic powers during a turn where this attack is used. If the psychic test for this attack is failed then 2 perils of the warp tests must be taken. If the psychic test is passed the attack has the following profile.

Range-18”
Strength-9
AP-2
Type- Large Blast


Hope you like it, either way please comment so it can be improved


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Nice, perhaps we could add rules for Rubric Dreads and take them over to Apocalypse as a datasheet (or at least a stab at working towards one)?

:apocalyptolops:


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

I'll make up some rules and post them tomorrow then, slow and purposeful, and all that stuff


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

these are the rules for the thousand sons rubic dreadnought to go with Tigran


Thousand Sons Rubic Dreadnought

WS-4
BS-4
Front-12
Side-12
Rear-10
Strength-6
Initiative-4
Attacks-3

Unit Type
Vehicle (Walker)

Wargear
Dreadnought Close Combat arm incorporating a twin-linked bolter
Smoke Launcher
Searchlight

Special Rules
Inferno Bolts
Slow and Purposeful
Venerable
The Warriors of Tigran

Options
The other arm must be armed with one of the following:
-Twin-linked Autocannon for 20 pts
-Twin-linked Lascannon for 35 pts
-Twin-linked Heavy bolter for 15 pts
-Multi-melta for 10 pts
-Plasma cannon for 15 pts
- An additional Dreadnought close combat arm with incorporated twin-linked bolter for 10pts. This will add +1 to the number of attacks on the profile

One close combat arm (along with its twin-linked bolter) may be replaced with a missile launcher for no additional cost. If the Dreadnought is left with no close combat arms, its attacks are reduced to 2

The Warriors of Tigran

The warriors have been turned to dust by the Rubic of Ahriman because of this if these models are more than 18” away from Tigran they roll 1D6 for the slow and purposeful movement. They also never suffer from the Crew Stunned or Shaken rules.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

... :shok: Zondarian... do you sleep?

You _are_ a Rubric dreadnought, aren't you? Grinding away implacably all through the night to pursue your fell purpose while the rest of us have to rest...

Great job. Fancy importing over to Djinn's "MAke a Datasheet" thread in Apocalypse as a Formation?

I suggest that they can be taken in any Apoc army that includes a unit of Rubric marines.

:big red cyclops:


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

I don't know how to use djinn datasheet thing, but someone else can import it if they want. And I only get a few hours sleep a day, I find that sleeping is wasting time that I could be awake.


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