# Roles of the Primarchs



## Shattertheirsky (May 26, 2012)

I have just read Prospero Burns and someone says that Leman Russ's role is the 'executioner' that kinda got me thinking as to what the other primarch's roles are. I could think that Perturabo is siege master and Vulkan is Blacksmith. Any suggestions?


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Horus - emporers bitch
fulgrim-hair dresser
sanguinus-in charge of shoes


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

This has be wildly discussed before when the book game out. A lot of the Primarchs roles are pretty evident Dorn being the defender, Khan being the Cavalry, etc etc.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Fulgrim - Making sure everyone and everything looks absolutely FABULOUS!!


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

They are different aspects of war and the emperor

Perturabo:Seige master, good with tech
Russ:executioner, Loyal to the extreme
Vulakn: is the emperors sense of mercy/compassion towards the weak, he is good at making things, but the whole 'forge' hammer and anvil stuff is more like his ethos of war, read promethean sun
Ferrus: warsmith, unrelenting, mechanical, functional
Corax: stealth, hitting enemies weakspots, cuts off supply lines,primarily behind enemy lines
Alpha: covert, subterfuge,deceit
Sanguinius: described as the emperors soul
Mortarion:Unrelenting, ideal for toxic environments.
Angron: blunt instrument, the emperors wrath,brawler
Curze: Fear incarnate, psychological warfare
Dorn:defensive,rigid.
Guilliman:General
Horus: diplomat, all rounder, the emperors ambition
the Lion: Logic,strategist
Khan: mobile, fast, basically cavalry
Fulgrim: Perfectionist
Lorgar: Faith
Magnus: knowledge, psychic mastery


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

II Legion Primarch -- The Emperor's Foresight
XI Legion Primarch -- The Emperor's Paternal Instincts


Damn shame.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Curze is actually mentioned as the Emperor's Executioner by a daemon of the warp, when it was showing Lorgar different potential futures. In one Lorgar embraces Chaos openly, and the Emperor sends his Executioner Curze with Russ as support, he rips Lorgars heart out.

However 9 positions I believe are out right stated in one of the books, I forget which, and it is left for us to fill in the Blanks, it went like this.

One to up an expeditionary empire on the fringes of the galaxy
One to act as a vanguard to protect the hearth
One to command the intelligence networks
One to lead and manage the armies of the imperium across the galaxy
One to inspire loyalty and motivate the hearts
One to be the executioner
One to be the Emperor's Tactician/commanding general
One to be the Emperor's voice


etc. etc. It is interesting to note because though 9 positions were named there are 18 primarchs, which leads me to believe 2 primarcsh were each made for 1 position, that or just not all the positions were mentioned.

Furthermore in another book when inspecting the DNA of the primarch samples that the Emperor gave to corax, it is noted that sample XXX has wolf dna directly added to it (russ), while sample YYY had its growth accelerators removed (Alpharius), etc. etc.

Which further supports the emperor having a planned function/role for each primarch/legion from before their creation.


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## Sangriento (Dec 1, 2010)

Lux said:


> Curze is actually mentioned as the Emperor's Executioner by a daemon of the warp, when it was showing Lorgar different potential futures. In one Lorgar embraces Chaos openly, and the Emperor sends his Executioner Curze with Russ as support, he rips Lorgars heart out.


afaik its said it was Russ the one tasked with "solving" the problem of the 2 missing primarchs. 
it strikes me as rare that the emperor would then change his mind and send another primarch to do the same job, specially when the former has proved successful at it twice.


oh btw, now ontopic, Magnus role was to sit on the Golden Throne and keep the Imperial Webway wide open after the Emp had completed that project


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Lux said:


> Curze is actually mentioned as the Emperor's Executioner by a daemon of the warp, when it was showing Lorgar different potential futures. In one Lorgar embraces Chaos openly, and the Emperor sends his Executioner Curze with Russ as support, he rips Lorgars heart out.
> 
> However 9 positions I believe are out right stated in one of the books, I forget which, and it is left for us to fill in the Blanks, it went like this.
> 
> ...


Which book is the top piece with Curze and Russ mentioned in - I've missed that one and would like to catch up :biggrin:

And following on logically, if there were 9 roles, and two primarchs per role - what would the roles of the two missing primarchs have been?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Lorgar's and Magnus's I'd say.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

So we could take from that - there should've been another 'super psyker' primarch, and another who led through faith.

So which was lost and which was damned?

And also given (for eg) there was one 'good' and one 'bad' primarch for each role what would the lost and damned had to have done, in order to be worse than the two legions who were among the most heavily censored?

Who was the opposite of Curze? 
All I know is he scares the crap out of Rogal Dorn, but he was opposite Perturabo.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Gret79 said:


> Which book is the top piece with Curze and Russ mentioned in - I've missed that one and would like to catch up :biggrin:


_Aurelian_.

However, I would argue that _Lux_ has read too far into it. 

Although this has already got a thread dedicated to it: Link. My thoughts.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Gret79 said:


> So we could take from that - there should've been another 'super psyker' primarch, and another who led through faith.


Not necessarily. If Lorgar was to be the Emperor's Voice (seems logical but still just a guess) than it isn't necessary for the other Emperor's Voice to be religious. Indeed given the scientific nature of the Imperial Truth such an individual could've been quite different. Look at the individuals who may have shared a role, they don't go about it the same way (as a specific example look at Curze and Russ as Executioners, same job, similar methods but very different philosophy and portrayal). 



> And also given (for eg) there was one 'good' and one 'bad' primarch for each role what would the lost and damned had to have done, in order to be worse than the two legions who were among the most heavily censored?


Perhaps this actually helps explain why the Emperor jumped on Lorgar and Magnus so harshly? He'd already seen sons with similar tasks and had become more wary of those sons being tempted. 

Alternatively. I've never really been a fan of the missing Legions having been destroyed for doing 'bad' things, just because there really isn't anything more 'evil' than the Legions that turned. Plus they're often referred to as 'tragedies' and I don't really think being a pure-evil villain is a tragedy. 



> Who was the opposite of Curze?


Lorgar? One crafted obedience from fear, the other built it from love. 

It seems unlikely that Curze and Lorgar were designed to share a role though. Seems far more likely that Curze and Russ were the Executioners (with Russ taking out single big threats (other Primarchs) and Curze dealing with dissent and disobedience).



> All I know is he scares the crap out of Rogal Dorn, but he was opposite Perturabo.


I don't really think Perturabo was Dorn's opposite but rather his rival. I'd imagine Dorn's opposite would be Alpharius, one is proud and honorable, the other will do whatever is necessary and take no glory from it.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> I don't really think Perturabo was Dorn's opposite but rather his rival.* I'd imagine Dorn's opposite would be Alpharius,* one is proud and honorable, the other will do whatever is necessary and take no glory from it.


I'd actually argue that from the existing fluff that Alpharius, and Guilliman are each others mirrors. Both are masters of strategy, and logistics. I mean Alpharius did evacuate a planet, in like a day.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

mob16151 said:


> I'd actually argue that from the existing fluff that Alpharius, and Guilliman are each others mirrors. Both are masters of strategy, and logistics. I mean Alpharius did evacuate a planet, in like a day.


And I'd agree with that assessment. I was speaking about opposites, not reflections. Guilliman and Alpharius have a lot in common, they operate towards similar ends and even do so in somewhat similar ways. Alpharius and Dorn have pretty much nothing in common, but they don't just think/act differently they think/act in opposite ways. For example, Dorn is adamant that the Heresy can't, or shouldn't, be won through deceit (_Nemesis_) while this is exactly what Alpharius is trying to achieve.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

the reason they have different means to acheive the same end is simple, to foster healthy competitin, guilliman wants to do everything his way and thinks alpharius should aswell, so alpharius continues using his own method and refines it, and constantly tries to out do guilliman and vice versa.
they all were created to conquer the galaxy, they are all individually created tools that simply do the job in different ways, the fact they have different ways therefore causes those with a certain way to show the rest their way is best by trying to conquer, faster and more efficiently.

EDIT: not sure if anything i siad has any bearing on the conversation, but if we already have super psyker, then as i have previously mentined in other threads one of the missing primarchs is a psychic null


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

See I don't think the primarchs were created as opposites. I think all Primarchs are/were created as mirrors of each other. Redundancy is a good thing. And a key part of most military thinking.

Cruze/Russ
Corax/Khan
Alpharius/Guilliman
Dorn Perturabo
Angron/Sanguinius

etc,etc Obviously this list is debatable, and i'm just using it as an example.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I would argue that Alpharius "pair primarch" in terms of purpose created by the Emperor, would actually be Corax. Why you ask? Well this is assuming that Alpharius falls under the "And one to lead the intelligence networks of the Imperium" which I could seek Alpharius fitting nicely into. 

Now guilliman I see as the primarch that was created to fill the role of "And one to manage an expeditionary empire in the distant fringes" which is what Ultramar seems to be...for all intents and purposes it is an empire on the distant fringes of the known galaxy (edge of the emperor's light).

Now to say Alpharius was Guiliman's pair would be to say he was meant to build and man an empire similarily to Guiliman (not in regards to methods, but purpose), however I just do not see Alpharius doing this as his mantra is about fluidity and an empire is static in terms of operation.

I see Alpharius and Corax both falling into "And one to manage the intelligence networks" as both deal with stealth, intelligence gathering, and working behind the scenes.


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## Shattertheirsky (May 26, 2012)

Perhaps Vulkan/Manus are a pair?

*Spoilers for Feat of Iron*

In FOI Manus shows the respect that he has for the Drake. Maybe they were meant to be the pair of smiths?


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## HOGGLORD (Jan 25, 2012)

Perturabo: Seige master
Russ: executioner
Vulakn: is the emperors sense of compassion towards the weak
Ferrus: For when you needed space marines without the complex stratergies thing
Corax: stealth, power armoured marbo
Alpha: The guy who goes "Look over there!" before taking your wallet, stabbing you and sneaking into your house.
Sanguinius: Because someone in the imperium had to have wings
Mortarion:Unrelenting
Angron: Re-useable exterminatus
Curze: mindfuck kinda guy
Dorn: defensive
Guilliman: There for when a heart needs ripping out.
Horus: Everything
the Lion: Strategist
Khan: speedy
Fulgrim: Perfectionist
Lorgar: (fanatical) Faith
Magnus: knowledge


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I like the idea that there's two for every task, the idea they are each for a separate task is a bit much, having two for one is like having a fail safe.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I've always had a problem with the widespread assumption that each Primarch had a pre-ordained role, especially because most of those roles are, quite frankly, ridiculous. Certain roles may have been vital to the Emperor's plans, such as Magnus being intended to sit the Golden Throne or Russ being the failsafe executioner. But when it comes down to people listing Primarch roles as "the mobile, fast one" or "the unrelenting one", it just gets ridiculous. Why would the Emperor have created a Primarch to be specialised in a particular manner of warfare, when they could be master of all? The individual forte of each Primarch, for the most part, is a product of nurture rather than nature. The Primarchs were products of their homeworlds: Angron was a berzerk gladiator because of the _butcher's nails_ and growing to maturity in the gladiator pits, Curze was a psychologically unstable monster because of his experiences on Nostramo, et cetera.

Each Primarch was created with the intention of conquering the galaxy, and each could have mastered any manner of warfare. The Emperor wouldn't have created a single, or a few, Primarch(s) as the "diplomatic one(s)"; if the situation arose (as it did many times) when diplomacy was to be favoured over war, Mortarion wouldn't have shrugged his shoulders, sent for Horus and left because he was not intended to be the "diplomatic one". Or when a war required rapid hit-and-run tactics to wear down the enemy, Perturabo wouldn't have packed up his stuff, sent for Jaghatai and left because he wasn't "the fast, mobile one". Or when a world needed convincing to adopt the Imperial Truth, Ferrus Manus wouldn't have rolled his eyes, called for Lorgar and left because he wasn't "the one to win hearts and minds".

Very specific and distinguishing roles for certain Primarchs I can get on board with, but why can't most of the Primarchs just have been created with the intention of being warlords set to conquer the galaxy?


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Perhaps the Chaos Gods had different roles in mind when they placed the future traitor primarchs on the different worlds. Perhaps they wanted to make them the mirror of a loyalist primarch, so the legions post heresy would drag on the stalemate for as long as they could. You know, same tactics and such used by two opposing sides would lead to a stalemate. Then there are also certain legion tactics that null the tactics of another legion. This way, they would be gaining much more power over time.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

The issue with your stance COTE is that the fluff actually goes against your stance of Nuture versus Nature, along with they were all created equally with a general purpose in mind (bare magnus in your argument). It just isn't the case with the fluff showings of recent lore, at all.

In Deliverance lost it is flat out stated that the primarchs very genetic templates were vastly different from one another, such as Leman Russ having wolf dna directly encoded into his template, such as Legion XX primarch having its growth hormone boosters entirely removed thus explaining the height of Alpharius/Omegron. It than goes on to state legion ZZ having increased resistance to pain and damage, at the cost of slightly slowed reaction times (Salamanders anyone?). This right here shows that the Emperor had specific roles in mind for the primarchs, thus why he had modified each one so specifically.

In First heretic it states the positions
1. One to be tactician of the emperor's armies
2. One to direct and navigate the Imperium's forces across the galaxy
3. One to defend the hearth
4. One to set up and command an expeditionary empire on the galactic fringe
5. One to be the Emperor's executioner
6. One to be the Emperor's Voice
7. One to command the intelligence gathering and networks
etc. etc.

In Aurelian, Outcast Dead, and Prospero burns they all reference to the Wolves as the executioners, as well as supporting once again that the primarchs along with their legions were created with very specific tasks.

The Fluff can be interpreted either way, however I support the notion in all of the recent fluff that the primarchs had very specific positions, furthermore that there were two primarchs for each position originally.

One to be Executioner = Curze and Russ

One to direct the Imperial forces across the galaxy = Magnus (in fact its flat out stated that this is what the emperor had in mind for him, to be able to command, network, and direct the imperiums forces across the galaxy once hooked up to the golden throne...furthermore Magnus himself said it would have been the ultimate force of ascension and was so heart broken when he found out he damaged that possibility with his sorcery)

One to be tactician and general of the armies = Lion El Johnson and Horus

One to command an expeditionary empire on the galactic fringe = Guiliman

One to defend the hearth = Dorn and Perturbo

One to be the Emperor's voice = Lorgar and sanguinis

One to command the intelligence networks = Corax and Alpharius/Omegron


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

And One Ring to Rule Them All and In the Darkness Bind Them...


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> And One Ring to Rule Them All and In the Darkness Bind Them...


All according to plan


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

I think the ideas of both cote and lux both have merit, I however think they fit in unison.

I think when the gods of the warp carried the primarchs away the emperor had some sway over which primarchs went where, not so much "where" in terms of location, but using the warp to find planets that would help bring out the charecteristics he had gene coded into them for instance, he wanted Mortarion to go to a world were he would learn the value of perseverance and come to value infantry over the use of armoured vehicles.

He had no idea that the planet was under the sway of chaos sorceres but he did have faith in mortarions capabilities and knew that his plans needed someone with those specific areas of expertise.


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## Sangus Bane (Jun 17, 2009)

Lux said:


> Now guilliman I see as the primarch that was created to fill the role of "And one to manage an expeditionary empire in the distant fringes" which is what Ultramar seems to be...for all intents and purposes it is an empire on the distant fringes of the known galaxy (edge of the emperor's light).
> 
> Now to say Alpharius was Guiliman's pair would be to say he was meant to build and man an empire similarily to Guiliman (not in regards to methods, but purpose), however I just do not see Alpharius doing this as his mantra is about fluidity and an empire is static in terms of operation.


You could argue that the Alpha Legion was an empire on its own. They had influence over just about every branch off the Imperium, had operatives and spies on the corner of every street and were spread farther than anyone could imagine. You could argue that they were an invisible empire.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Sangus Bane said:


> You could argue that the Alpha Legion was an empire on its own. They had influence over just about every branch off the Imperium, had operatives and spies on the corner of every street and were spread farther than anyone could imagine. You could argue that they were an invisible empire.


That is an in depth and very insightful perspective, I never saw it that way prior. Yes I do think that could be one way of them fitting that role description, however which two primarchs do you feel would fit the "one to manage the intelligence networks of the imperium" role?


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## Shattertheirsky (May 26, 2012)

There are two Alpha legion primarchs, both to do the monumental business of running galactic intelligence maybe?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Lux,

The thing to remember, though, is that none of those roles have to do with the "nature versus nurture" theme that CotE brought up. Nor do they tie in with the overly specialized roles he was arguing against.

Additionally, the genetic variances that the Emperor put on his Primarchs don't necessarily translate to those excessively specialized roles. Does siege warfare necessarily require one to be more resistant to damage and/or having less awareness of where your limbs are in relation to the rest of your body?

I have no doubt the Emperor experimented on his Primarchs to get certain results out of them, but I don't think they were part of a plan to create super-specialized generals. "Defender of the hearth"? Sure. But that's something a well-rounded Primarch* could do. Same as "master of intelligence networks".

* *Lion:* comparatively primitive, but non-specialized homeworld. Takes a well-rounded approach to warfare, marked by a methodical, calculated, "big picture" strategic approach.
*Fulgrim:* semi-advanced world, no noted cultural specializations. Low numbers drive him to pursue greater efficiency, but does not compromise any skill sets to do so.
*Perturabo:* comes from planet divided in a number of city states. Focus on sieges might be a result of culture and geography. Is that trumped by experimentation to make him more resistant to pain and/or less coordinated? Personal opinion - no.
*Jaghatai Khan:* adopted by culture that focused overwhelmingly on mounted warfare. Unsurprisingly, keeps same approach to interstellar warfare.
*Leman Russ:* comes from culture that fluff shows (in Abnett, King, and Lightner eras alike) to be driven toward annihilation of enemy - in order to secure always dwindling resources and land. Unsurprisingly, keeps same approach to interstellar warfare... and is handed the Executioner role, which also fits well.
*Konrad Curze:* psychopath, probably sociopath, isolated from human society that was centered on crime and atrocity. Ends up convinced that fear is the only tool to maintain roder. Unsurprisingly, keeps same approach to instersellar warfare.
*Angron:* raised in gladiator pits, implanted with rage-inducing circuitry not meant for his brain. Ends up becoming a berserker. Unsurprisingly, keeps same approach to interstellar warfare.
*Guilliman:* raised in well-structured, organized, militaristic society. Having thoroughly adopted said society and its morals, maintains a well-rounded approach to war.
*Mortarion:* raised in a society where the war against xenos overlords came with certain limitations that led to unavoidable losses (climb high enough, equipment fails and people die). Translates to relentless, grim outlook and "we will endure this" infantry assaults.
*Magnus:* raised in psyker society. Upbringing marked by psychic and sorcerous training. Unsurprisingly, maintains same focus with instellar warfare.
*Horus:* found first by Emperor, and is only Primarch stated as having received an apprenticeship under him. Aggressive posture and traditions balanced by well-rounded approach to warfare.
*Lorgar:* religious fanaticism aside, nothing about Colchis suggests specialized military doctrine. Zealotry does inform his tactics throughout his career (both before and after conversion to Chaos), but his doctrine remains balanced.
*Vulkan:* grows up in ostensibly primitive (based on terminology, though this might not be the case) society, but his people do not appear to be specialized. Cultural influences translate to Legion (hammers, flamers, etc.), but a well-rounded approach is still more or less kept.
*Corax:* grows up among freedom fighters involved in an ongoing clandestine guerilla fight. Unsurprisingly, the tactics he grows with inform his take on interstellar warfare.

Bottom line, genetic tampering aside and Imperial roles aside, what we see is that those Primarchs who we know to have come from well-rounded, non-specialized cultures, maintained a well-rounded approach to warfare. And again, I think that a well-balanced Primarch could have filled the shoes of any of the Emperor's "roles". I think the example of Alpharius that someone else brought up is perfect: strip away the espionage and subterfuge, and what you have is a Legion that is still able to approach any aspect of warfare.

Cheers,
P.


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## khaosgurl (Jul 8, 2012)

BlackGuard said:


> II Legion Primarch -- The Emperor's Foresight
> XI Legion Primarch -- The Emperor's Paternal Instincts
> 
> 
> Damn shame.


This explains a lot about the Emperor's foresight and paternal instincts. They are dead if they ever existed in the first place.


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