# The Primarchs



## TheReverend

EDIT
Finished it now so have updated the commentry:

***SPOILERS***











Seriously, this collection is one bombshell after another!! 

I guess I already gave the game away about Fulgrim in *The Reflection Crack'd* (see below) so I won't give too much more away. I'll just add that this story focuses on Lucius and tells it from his point of view. Eidolon finally gets his just deserts from a surprising source...

As _Reflection Crack'd_ expands on _Aurelian_, *Feat of Iron* gives another side of the story in _Promethean Sun_, explaining why Manus takes so long to achieve his objective and expanding on his relationship with the other Primarchs. Needless to say, the reason is a bit of a bombshell.

Some people have already spoken about *The Lion*. If they were shocked by Nemiel's death then wait 'til they read the rest of the story. There's another massive bombshell at the end of this story too, not just the fact that it appears that The Lion knows what is happening on Caliban, the Watchers in the Dark are giving him updates, but chooses to weaken the Night Lords strength before he moves on to cleaning house. _The Lion _really demonstrates The Lion's strategic brilliance, and acts as a sort of counter point to _Feat of Iron_ which demonstrates the Iron Hands' near undoing due to their single mindedness and unwillingness to adapt to new situations. 
In _The Lion_, The Lion speaks about how each brother has an oposite and how in the end the legions will simply bleed each other dry and the Emperor will win. It seems like he's likening himself to Curze as he heads back to the fight but reading _The Lion _and then _The Serpent Beneath_, I would say he's more like Alpharius/Omegon, suspicious of everyone, including his brothers and his legionaires, and loyal to the Emperor and the Emperor alone. 

Ok, so I finished *The Serpent Beneath* and I am feeling my respect for the Alpha Legion grow again. _Legion_ made them awesome, _Deliverance Lost_ made them comedy, this story makes them awesome again. 
This story is told from Omegons point of view (until it is revealed that it is in fact one of his captains, they switched places) and is about he Alpha Legion infiltrating one of their own bases to extinguish a leak. Omegon says it is because someone is selling tech that they are employing on behalf of Horus to the Imperium. The bombshell in this story (apart from the mention of a certain 'smaller' race) is that that is all a lie, Alpharius and Omegon aren't necesarily of one mind... 
Ths story does explain why the White Scars are delayed. The tech involves becalms warp space within the sector it is stationed, making communication a lot easier, buthe white scars. It seems Omegon has decided to change the game...

As I've read through them, each story links to the next in a small or seemingly unreleated way. _The Reflection Crack'd_ mentions Manus, _Feat of Iron_ features the Death Guard, _The Lion_ features the Death Guard and the Iron Hands... You can see there's a plan

All 4 stories are very well written, fast paced and add something to the HH narrative (filling gaps and moving the story forward), the editing is great (only spotted one spelling error so far so well done CZ Dunn) and as with every HH book before, this is my new favourite.

Rev

So I picked up my copy of the Primarchs this weekend and so far I have one question...

***SPOILERS***


In chapter 5 of The Relection Crack'd 'Fulgrim' is having a conversation with his own reflection but I'm not sure if Fulgrim is Fulgrim or the daemon that possessed Fulgrim. At the very begining Lucius is having a dream about the picture that Fulgrim has been trapped in and he keeps looking at the Primarch to see if anything is wrong with him. Chapter 4 describes how he sees something in Fulgrim's eye's that that is far older than the Primarch but the conversation Fulgrim is having with his reflection sounds like Fulgrim has regained control of his body and trapped the daemon in the picture... any thoughts?


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## Chaosveteran

isnt the Primarchs out in June?


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## raider1987

Where did you pick it up from?


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## D-A-C

Its made pretty clear in the _Aurelian_ that the painting of Fulgrim is the pre-Daemonic Fulgrim, and that the Daemon is in complete control of his body.

In fact , Lorgar remarks that no trace of Fulgrim can be felt within his body, as the Daemon has taken it over so entirely.

Hope that helps. Just remember the painting is always the 'real' Fulgrim, and the 'body' is the daemon.


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## spanner94ezekiel

Much like the Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde, may I add.


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## docgeo

is this book really out? cant find it on black library site?

Doc


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## TheReverend

I picked it up at the 40k doubles tournamant this weekend...

and yeah, I know that in Aurelian Fulgrim is in the painting, but in The Relection Crack'd Fulgrim talks to his reflection, and it sounds as if it is the real Fulgrim and he's regained control of his body using powers bestowed upon him by other powers. He talks about his brothers and betrayal, and I'm guessing that the daemon Fulgrim wouldn't talk like that. I must admit that I'm only half way through so maybe it will become clearer...


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## TheReverend

***big spoilers***



Just finished the story and I was right! Fulgrim is no longer in the picture, he's thrown his lot in with slaneesh and on his way to daemonhood!!


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## D-A-C

TheReverend said:


> ***big spoilers***
> 
> Just finished the story and I was right! Fulgrim is no longer in the picture, he's thrown his lot in with slaneesh and on his way to daemonhood!!


Really? Jeez, that is a big twist, I must admit I'm curious about how this one is going to fit in with our current assumptions about the Primarch. 

I'll have to wait and read the story, but I kind of liked Fulgrim being a Daemon (and that's despite him and his Legion being my favourites). 

I'm excited to see how this happens, but at the same time a bit concerned as well. 

Looking forward to its release.


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## TheReverend

I have gone back and added an update to the beginning of the thread as I'm near the end of the book now...


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## piemelke

stop writing and continue reading so you can tell more sooner, 
if the Fulgrim twist is indeed correct that is serious crap


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## gridge

Although I've found many of the shortstory collections to be mostly mediocre (with a few good stories here and there), I'm looking forward to this one. June is a long way away it seems.


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## TheReverend

This is definitely the best


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## Unknown Primarch

more spoilers please


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## TheReverend

what haven't I told you....

*spoilers:*

In feat of Iron, Manus is esentially kidnapped by the Cabal...

The whole of The Serpent Beneath is about Omegon destroying a facility guarded by his own legion. He then kills off a load of named Alpha Legionaires (from Legion) and tells Alpharius that the facility must have been destroyed by Imperial Forces. I think they no longer have the same agenda...

Edolon is killed by Fulgrim in Mirror Crack'd...

The Lion reveals that he trusts neither Guilliman or Horus, seeing them both as pretenders to the thrown and starts asking his own Legionaires if they would follow him if he was to break away on his own...

In The Serpent Beneath, the Squats are mentioned!! 

That's about it

Rev


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## Words_of_Truth

Meh that sucks, I wanted Sigismund to take Ediolons head off.


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## TheReverend

Words_of_Truth said:


> Meh that sucks, I wanted Sigismund to take Ediolons head off.


It does seem like they have gone a bit trigger happy lately and started killing off teh best known characters in unimpressive ways. Heroes, whether they are good or evil, need heroic, noteworthy deaths. Not just dying at the whim of a primarch.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

TheReverend said:


> The Lion reveals that he trusts neither Guilliman or Horus, seeing them both as pretenders to the thrown and starts asking his own Legionaires if they would follow him if he was to break away on his own...


This I like the sound of.


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## forkmaster

Well since the spoilers are already destroyed for me and let me summerize this:

The Lion: One of the old characters from the previous books are dead and the doubts about the Lions true allegience is in jeopardy.... again, despite ADB's efforts to kill that off. But as far as we know, this takes place before Savage Weapons, which means he might be in doubt as news about Horus just recently reached him and by the time of Savage Weapons, he will remain loyal.

Ferrus Manus: Will take place at the same time as Promethian Sun. What was the novella about anyhow? And this will show the Cabal?

Alpharius/Omegon: After the decission as shown in DL, we will see that they throw off the Cabal and goes their own ways, but in The Primarchs, it shows that even their Legion is splitting and Alpharius remains loyal, but Omegon is turning to Chaos? Well if now Alpharius was killed by RG, that would prove why their Legion is so.... chaosy. 

Fulgrim: so after sources will show that his soul is indeed trapped in the painting BUT has a tendensy to return back to his body and that there is still hope he might regain his body and become a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh, instead of simply being possessed and slowly decay as no body, even that of a Primarch, could substain a daemon forever? And Eidolon is not alive in the year 40 thousand?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

forkmaster said:


> The Lion: One of the old characters from the previous books are dead and the doubts about the Lions true allegience is in jeopardy.... again, despite ADB's efforts to kill that off. But as far as we know, this takes place before Savage Weapons, which means he might be in doubt as news about Horus just recently reached him and by the time of Savage Weapons, he will remain loyal.


_The Lion_ (novella) takes place after _Savage Weapons_.

I've only read a third of _The Lion_ as it stands, but from what the OP has told us it doesn't seem the case that Jonson isn't loyal to the Emperor. Rather he heavily distrusts his brothers - and he has reason to, and not only the traitors but Guilliman as well. If Jonson learned that Guilliman chose not to intervene in the heresy and instead remained in Ultramar finalising the Codex and rebuilding his strength, and then seems to desire Imperial rulership (which he effectively claims post-heresy) it's no wonder that Jonson would contemplate _'going it alone'_ - especially post-heresy.

I like this new direction the Lion seems to be taking.


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## TheReverend

firstly, I can only appologise once again for the lack of spolier button thingies, I couldn't get them to work but I did say at the begining of the thread there were spoilers... 



forkmaster said:


> WeFerrus Manus: Will take place at the same time as Promethian Sun. What was the novella about anyhow? And this will show the Cabal?


Promethian Sun was about a compliance fought by the Death Guard, Salamanders and Iron Hands against some Eldar world that had humans on too. the story is told from the Salamanders POV, but to be honest, I prefer this story... teh cabal say they have failed with Manus but not to worry, they have someone else who will listen to them... so this must take place prior to them having a chat with Alpharius/Omegon.



forkmaster said:


> Alpharius/Omegon: After the decission as shown in DL, we will see that they throw off the Cabal and goes their own ways, but in The Primarchs, it shows that even their Legion is splitting and Alpharius remains loyal, but Omegon is turning to Chaos? Well if now Alpharius was killed by RG, that would prove why their Legion is so.... chaosy.


Maybe I explained things wrong. I think Omegon is actually Loyal. Alpharius constructed the facility at the behest of Horus and it disrupted warp space in surrounding sectors which held off the White Scars from getting to Terra. Omegon destroys it and blames it on loyalist factions... 



forkmaster said:


> Fulgrim: so after sources will show that his soul is indeed trapped in the painting BUT has a tendensy to return back to his body and that there is still hope he might regain his body and become a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh, instead of simply being possessed and slowly decay as no body, even that of a Primarch, could substain a daemon forever? And Eidolon is not alive in the year 40 thousand?


Fulgrim is most definitely not trapped in the painting and the daemon is begging for release, so I think someone has been saying his prayers to the dark gods before bedtime... and unless Eidolon is able to get a plaster big enough to stop teh bleeding on his decapitation wound, he isn't around in 40k... 

rev


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## forkmaster

TheReverend said:


> firstly, I can only appologise once again for the lack of spolier button thingies, I couldn't get them to work but I did say at the begining of the thread there were spoilers...
> 
> 
> Promethian Sun was about a compliance fought by the Death Guard, Salamanders and Iron Hands against some Eldar world that had humans on too. the story is told from the Salamanders POV, but to be honest, I prefer this story... teh cabal say they have failed with Manus but not to worry, they have someone else who will listen to them... so this must take place prior to them having a chat with Alpharius/Omegon.
> 
> 
> Maybe I explained things wrong. I think Omegon is actually Loyal. Alpharius constructed the facility at the behest of Horus and it disrupted warp space in surrounding sectors which held off the White Scars from getting to Terra. Omegon destroys it and blames it on loyalist factions...
> 
> 
> Fulgrim is most definitely not trapped in the painting and the daemon is begging for release, so I think someone has been saying his prayers to the dark gods before bedtime... and unless Eidolon is able to get a plaster big enough to stop teh bleeding on his decapitation wound, he isn't around in 40k...


No need for that. I said it as I simply couldn't keep my sneaky nose out of the thread, despite I already knew there would be spoilers. Ahh okay, yeah Ive always wondered what Promethian Sun was about, and now it seems to be given some slighter depth and justification for existing.  

Thats indeed strange as I saw Alpharius as the loyal one and Omegon as the bad guy (at leas Omegon in DL). 

Ahh so the daemon kinda did its purpose of giving some balls and kicking Fulgrim over the edge of Chaos, meaning he will be his own personae again. Sweet deal, ever since Horus Rising, I've been looking forward to his death. 

So what are your personal opinions about all books now afterwards? What grades would you give them?  :goodpost:


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## MontytheMighty

I definitely like the idea of a rift between Alpharius and Omegon...seems that they are not truly one soul in two bodies



TheReverend said:


> Heroes, whether they are good or evil, need heroic, noteworthy deaths. Not just dying at the whim of a primarch.


Totally agree



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> it's no wonder that Jonson would contemplate _'going it alone'_ - especially post-heresy. I like this new direction the Lion seems to be taking.


Yes, it seems that he is loyal to the Emperor but he would want no part in an Imperium ruled by others (Guilliman or High Lords etc.)


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## TheReverend

forkmaster said:


> So what are your personal opinions about all books now afterwards? What grades would you give them?  :goodpost:


Plot-wise, I would honestly give them all a 10 out of 10. This book is the best example of all the authors working together. All the stories link in one small way or another. They are all fast paced, full of interesting characters and progress the story along.

Writing-wise, again, 10 out of 10. I found one spelling error, which tells me the editing is betting better on the series too  I'm always wary of Gav Thorp's work having read some of his early stuff back in the day but he's really matured as a writer. Graham McNeill rarely puts a foot wrong and Rob Sanders is a great writer. After Promethean Sun I was a bit wary of Nick Kyme's work too. That story was too slow and didn't really push the story on but Feat of Iron is a different matter entirely, there's much more going on. I just wonder if he'll tell the Death Guard side of the story now he's done the other two? 

With Deliverance Lost, Know No Fear and The Primarchs, the HH series has really hit an all time high in terms of quality writing. In my opinion anyway. 

Rev


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## forkmaster

TheReverend said:


> Plot-wise, I would honestly give them all a 10 out of 10. This book is the best example of all the authors working together. All the stories link in one small way or another. They are all fast paced, full of interesting characters and progress the story along.
> 
> Writing-wise, again, 10 out of 10. I found one spelling error, which tells me the editing is betting better on the series too  I'm always wary of Gav Thorp's work having read some of his early stuff back in the day but he's really matured as a writer. Graham McNeill rarely puts a foot wrong and Rob Sanders is a great writer. After Promethean Sun I was a bit wary of Nick Kyme's work too. That story was too slow and didn't really push the story on but Feat of Iron is a different matter entirely, there's much more going on. I just wonder if he'll tell the Death Guard side of the story now he's done the other two?
> 
> With Deliverance Lost, Know No Fear and The Primarchs, the HH series has really hit an all time high in terms of quality writing. In my opinion anyway.
> 
> Rev


You're a fan of Deliverence Lost as well? I think its, not one of the best novels, but truly a good one actually.  I think Gav can take the Raven Guard in an awesome path. But thank you for the answers, will pick this up as soon as I can.


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## TheReverend

I'm not saying DL is THE BEST HH novel, but it is a good one, and compared to some of the earlier HH novels it shows more focus. It could have done with being longer in my opinion. 

All the HH novels are well written though, and compared to some of the Black Library novels I read back when they first started publishing, the quality has improved. But as a wannabe writer, I love the fact BL take a chance on authors... everyone except Lee Lightner. That duo ruined the Ragnar Series for me...


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## piemelke

I actually liked the portraying of the RG by Graham far better than that of Gav,
I mean that were 40 K ninja's an AL SM would never best a RG SM in close combat that easily. The alpha legion spies would have been detected based upon not knowing the specific close combat skills of the RG.


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## Xisor

Eurgh. I didn't care at all for the 'ninja' interpretation of the RG. Extreme professional soldiery, certainly. The AL infiltration wasn't implied to have been _easy_, and all DL's AL were implied to be extremely well trained for what they're doing. Years of research? Perhaps. 

I thought they were all of high quality in _The Primarchs_. TSB takes the top biscuit, certainly, but the others all had a lot to offer and delivered it very well. TRC'd was a great return to top form from Graham McNeill. Very enjoyable anthology.

The novella format seems to be working rather well too. Caters just right to my tastes.


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## forkmaster

Well AL did have what, 2 years to prepare at least? I would think they had trained for inflitration long before that since they appear to trust no one, not even within their own Legion.


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## TheReverend

In Know No Fear the Ultramarines were sanctioning their own men for thinking about how to take down another Space Marine... I bet the Alpha Legion had been thinking about this since Alpharius/Omegon first took charge!


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## Tywin Lannister

My Amazon order has been dispatched - very excited...


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## TheReverend

Tywin Lannister said:


> My Amazon order has been dispatched - very excited...


You won't be disappointed


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## polynike

I didnt like the stories on Manus, the Lion or the Alpha Legion. Fulgrim's was very good but some of it I had to piece together as I have not read Aurelian. Overall I was disappointed by this book.


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## MontytheMighty

This would've been a great chance to explore less well-known primarchs

Perturabo and Khan in particular. Do we really need more Fulgrim?


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## Unknown Primarch

nearly finished the primarchs now and so far the only story that i really didnt like was ferrus mannus's. the bits containing just the marines bogged the story down and the bits with mannus in were uninspiring. i was hoping for a really good meeting between mannus and the eldar but it was a total waste of time. i mean the guys a raging hothead and they were trying to woo him with subtle vaguries that went completely over his head. 
maybe they should have left that story out and left the curze one in!


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## ckcrawford

Unknown Primarch said:


> nearly finished the primarchs now and so far the only story that i really didnt like was ferrus mannus's. the bits containing just the marines bogged the story down and the bits with mannus in were uninspiring. i was hoping for a really good meeting between mannus and the eldar but it was a total waste of time. i mean the guys a raging hothead and they were trying to woo him with subtle vaguries that went completely over his head.
> maybe they should have left that story out and left the curze one in!


I concur. It bored the fuck out of my mind. :russianroulette:

I'm sure people think of Fulgrim a little different now. He's probably going to be considered the most powerful Primarch. He pretty much kicked out the Daemon who owned his soul and body. Pretty fricken cool.


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## Tywin Lannister

I'll say one thing, don't read the 'exorcism' scene in the Fulgrim at bed time when you are running a temperature - does not make for good dreams!


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## TheReverend

*Unknown Primarch, ckcrawford:* If you think Feat of Iron was boring, don't ever waste your time buying Promethian Sun (edit). I liked Feat of Iron 10 times more than that story and it's only telling the same story from a different perspective anyway. 

I thought all the stories were well written, but I guess this collection is more about tying up lose ends (Fulgrim not being a daemon anymore) and dropping big hairy ass bombshells (Are the Alpha Legion loyal? now we all know, half of them are... which balances up half the Dark Angels turning traitor I guess).


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## Gret79

I'm the other way round - I liked aurelian but couldn't get into ferrus's story - Mind you, it was full of the 'wussy' eldar. I like eldar being both enigmatic and uncaring about the lesser races...

Enjoyed fulgrims story and the lion - but the alpha legion didn't ever really get going for me. By the end of that one I wasn't really fussed about anyone who was on the asteroid about to die...


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## polynike

TheReverend said:


> *Unknown Primarch, ckcrawford:* If you think Feat of Iron was boring, don't ever waste your time buying Aurelian. I liked Feat of Iron 10 times more than that story and it's only telling the same story from a different perspective anyway.
> 
> I thought all the stories were well written, but I guess this collection is more about tying up lose ends (Fulgrim not being a daemon anymore) and dropping big hairy ass bombshells (*Are the Alpha Legion loyal? now we all know, half of them are... which balances up half the Dark Angels turning traitor I gues*s).


Good assessment, I wonder if correct what the consequences and repercussions are in the 40K timeline, if any!


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## Fire Tempered

Reverend, you mean Promethean Sun, not Aurelian, right? I've read both and Aurelian is pretty good, while Sun was meh, although I love Salamanders (unfortunately books about them are mediocre at best). And Aurelian has nothing to do with Feat of iron.

I am halfway through Lion atm, haven't read much last few days. Don't know what to think about that one yet.

Reflection cracked was great. And Feat of Iron was kinda boring. Better than some Kyme's work, but still not great.


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## TheReverend

Fire Tempered said:


> Reverend, you mean Promethean Sun, not Aurelian, right?


sorry, yep, my bad. Aurelian was good


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## TheReverend

polynike said:


> Good assessment, I wonder if correct what the consequences and repercussions are in the 40K timeline, if any!


Having half the Alpha Legion loyal means everything is totally balanced now, and is another brick in the wall that is the theory that each legion has an equal and oposite. I could see the Dark Angels and the Alpha Legion being mirrors of each other, The Lion had Luther where Alpharius has Omegon. Maybe we'll see Omegon betray Alpharius later on?...


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## Words_of_Truth

Something is telling me to make a Loyalist Alpha Legion army now


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## TheReverend

Words_of_Truth said:


> Something is telling me to make a Loyalist Alpha Legion army now


we have two already, they've been there right under our noses all along...

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Omega_Marines#.T7P14cVX6So

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sons_of_Orar#.T7P2BsVX6So


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## Words_of_Truth

Hmm well Omega Marines maybe, but I thought the Sons of Orar were a female member of staff's self made army that got inducted into the proper fluff because they where so impressed with it?


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## forkmaster

So I got my Primarch-copy yesterday and finished the Fulgrim story in one night. I really liked it, nice to see the continuation of the Fulgrim-story, seeing what happened to the characters afterwards. The only thing I was disappointed to see was that Fulgrim had broken out ofthe daemons grip by himself, giving a kind of anti-climax. I was hoping to see the daemon literally being pulled out and Fulgrim then regaining control, only to realize Slaanesh is the only path to walk.

But it put him in a bad-ass way to see he did it himsel,f but I would rather how he did it. To as well, the title of Grahams next novel looks like it is either a fortress or a ship of the Iron Warriors.


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## randian

Does the Fulgrim story give a good reason why he continued on the path of Slaanesh? If you'll recall, he wouldn't have been possessed in the first place had he not wanted to repent. Why change his mind?


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## Apfeljunge

He says that killing Ferrus severed all ties he had to his former self and after a while he got over it and decided that he thinks Slaanesh is pretty cool anyway.
Or something like that.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

randian said:


> Does the Fulgrim story give a good reason why he continued on the path of Slaanesh? If you'll recall, he wouldn't have been possessed in the first place had he not wanted to repent. Why change his mind?


The impression we got from _Fulgrim_ of Fulgrim being distraught and ready to welcome oblivion after the Gorgon's death was apparently wrong:


"I think it [the daemon] hoped I would be crushed by the death of my brother... It should have known better. After all, it had started me down the road of self-indulgence and a life free of inhibitions or guilt. What did I care for one more betrayal? Manus was already a fading memory, a ghost who recedes with each passing moment, and everything I learned from it only made me stronger."


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## Yllib Enaz

I am dissapointed in the Iron Hands portrayl as I had previously thought that there incredible levels of vaguely being angry and the severe levels of flesh is weak had developed after (and as a result of) Ferrus Manus being killed. As it is they come accross as a right bunch of schmucks to me.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

I can't emphasise enough how much _Feat of Iron_ bored me...

Everything of Nick Kyme's i've read has been disappointing.


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## Words_of_Truth

Finished the Fulgrim part and overall it was quite good, although the change in Fulgrim was quite dramatic, I mean I would never of expected him to simply behead one of his most loyal followers for simply asking a question.

At least we now know that the Fulgrim in the 40k universe is actually Fulgrim and not that daemon that possessed him.

What was meant by Angel Exterminatus btw?


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## Words_of_Truth

Just reading through Ferrus's story and came across a part with 20 statues which are obviously the Primarchs but their treachery evident by the subtle differences?

The first was obviously him, the second is stated as "the skeletal aspect of death itself" which says me to Mortarion, the third was split in half with two masks which says Alpharius and Omegon to me. The bestial snarling houd is Angron isn't it? The stoic drake is Vulkan? The heraldic knight standing next to it's darker kin, I thought could be Dorn and Pertruabo? Leathern wings with chiropteran mask I thought referred to Night Haunter? A Horse with flowing mane, is the Khan? a bird of prey, corax? the noble human with a laurel wreath, Guilliman? A lion beneath a monk's cowl is jonson I'm sure. 

It also mentions the two unknown primarchs, their masks scratched and near obliterated, could this possibly indicate they ain't entirely destroyed? What is clear is Ferrus did not know them at all, which means they disappeared before Ferrus was found.


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## forkmaster

Words_of_Truth said:


> Just reading through Ferrus's story and came across a part with 20 statues which are obviously the Primarchs but their treachery evident by the subtle differences?
> 
> The first was obviously him, the second is stated as "the skeletal aspect of death itself" which says me to Mortarion, the third was split in half with two masks which says Alpharius and Omegon to me. The bestial snarling houd is Angron isn't it? The stoic drake is Vulkan? The heraldic knight standing next to it's darker kin, I thought could be Dorn and Pertruabo? Leathern wings with chiropteran mask I thought referred to Night Haunter? A Horse with flowing mane, is the Khan? a bird of prey, corax? the noble human with a laurel wreath, Guilliman? A lion beneath a monk's cowl is jonson I'm sure.
> 
> It also mentions the two unknown primarchs, their masks scratched and near obliterated, could this possibly indicate they ain't entirely destroyed? What is clear is Ferrus did not know them at all, which means they disappeared before Ferrus was found.


That would be my guess as well.  On another note, Fulgrim-story is great, but only as I said, I was looking forward a real extraction of the daemon. Feat of Iron is quite boring actually and nothing happens.


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## Assaj

I just finished reading the book. Most of my questions were answered already.

However, in _The Lion_ what does the machine refer too when he complements Jonson on his ability to cope with so much guilt?
I didn't understand what it meant when I was reading, but after finishing I assumed it was referring to his knowledge of what's happening on Caliban.

But could it mean something else? Such as possibly his guilt for also wishing to be separate from the Emperor after the Horus Heresy like Guilliman?


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## Words_of_Truth

Assaj said:


> I just finished reading the book. Most of my questions were answered already.
> 
> However, in _The Lion_ what does the machine refer too when he complements Jonson on his ability to cope with so much guilt?
> I didn't understand what it meant when I was reading, but after finishing I assumed it was referring to his knowledge of what's happening on Caliban.
> 
> But could it mean something else? Such as possibly his guilt for also wishing to be separate from the Emperor after the Horus Heresy like Guilliman?


Yeah I was wondering that to, what guilt? 

_The Lion_ just felt weird to me, I mean Jonson punched the head off a character that had been developed since descent of angels, Nemial was Zachariel's cousin wasn't he? 

Jonson is so suspicious he actually thinks there's three sides to the conflict now? Four if you include him as well now. Is he really loyal to Terra, he seems to say it at the end but what with him taking that machine and that machine being part of nurgle's plans as well as a watcher in the dark around I just don't know.

Also Death Guard's armour is white now..so I dunno how to paint them, making them white would make it easier than trying to recreate the marble effect but every where else it says their armour is unpainted.


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## Tywin Lannister

Couple of questions about the AL story...



Ok can someone please explain to a stupid person - me - what the deal is with Alpharius and Omegon in The Serpent Beneath? Is Omegon trying to help the loyalists by letting the White Scars find out what is going on, or does he think Alpharius is helping the loyalists? Or have I completely missed the point? 

Also, how come the insertion force don't twig it's a suicide mission, it's not like they don't all pretend to be a Primarch from time to time...


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## mal310

The Primarchs

Didn't like three of them. Thought one was ok. Spoilers bellow. 

The Refection Crack'd 

I liked the portrayal of the degradation of the Legion. That was about it really. I feel McNeill has really badly lost his way. Fulgrim is one of my favourites of the whole series. I thought the ending was fantastic, fitting, tragic and Fulgrim's fate very unique. Here we get an about turn done in a half hearted and half baked way. Now I was not totally against Fulgrim's return, however it had to be done right. This is just crap. No explanation as to how he managed the feat, absolutely no mention of his change of heart at the end of Fulgrim and his yet further change of heart. Just a bit of 'I fancied seeing what that Demon was all about then I waltzed back in, no probs', oh and I'm a total bastard again'. This in complete contradiction to what has came before. Is this the McNeill paradox coming to the fore again? I'm surprised Magnus didn't make an appearance on his way to warn the Emperor about Horus.

As for Eidolon, I know most fans of the series (myself included) are clamouring for some bad guy deaths but come on. I was expecting better than that for someone who was a major character in the first few books and a first class dick to boot. 

Some of this can potentially be better explained in Angel Exterminatus but to be honest I'm not holding my breath. I'm half expecting Eidolon to come back, Lucius to turn loyal again and Magnus to appear on his way to warn the Emperor. 

Feat of Iron

I found it very boring. It took me over three weeks to read it and was a chore from start to finish. I have enjoyed some of Kyme's work in the past so I know he can write an entertaining story. This unfortunately was not one of them for me. Full of one dimensional stereotypical characters who were instantly forgettable. Manus does not come across very well throwing his toys out of the pram like a baby because he is last to destroy the Elder gate. I suppose its because one of his traits is his bull headedness but it just didn't work for me. Also thought the nod to the missing two primarchs completely pointless. Why say he never met them? How is that interesting? 

The Lion

My favourite of the four, I enjoyed this for the most part. I liked the way Jonson's loyalty is handled by Gav. He is a bit of a fence sitter but also loyal to the Emperor, kind of! 

The Serpent Beneath

The Alpha Legion were handled expertly by Dan Abnett in Legion. Since others have got their hands on them I feel their portrayal has suffered. Why does every 'traitor' legion have to have some kind of split? I really hope the Nightlords don't have any loyalists, AT ALL. Anyway I digress. I didn't think it was badly written per say. I just hated the storyline. I saw the Alpha Legion as the one holding all the cards and working in complete unison, in secret, on the ultimate long game, for the Emperor in their pursuit of the destruction of total evil. Instead we get another grubby little fight between brothers. Who cares if they are twins, hated it. Yawn. Also didn't like how readily they were to kill their own battle brothers when the reasons seemed paper thin, and other options easily explored. 

I just wish Aaron could be cloned multiple times and the whole series given to them.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

mal310 said:


> The Primarchs
> 
> Didn't like three of them. Thought one was ok. Spoilers bellow.
> 
> The Refection Crack'd
> 
> I liked the portrayal of the degradation of the Legion. That was about it really. I feel McNeill has really badly lost his way. Fulgrim is one of my favourites of the whole series. I thought the ending was fantastic, fitting, tragic and Fulgrim's fate very unique. Here we get an about turn done in a half hearted and half baked way. Now I was not totally against Fulgrim's return, however it had to be done right. This is just crap. No explanation as to how he managed the feat, absolutely no mention of his change of heart at the end of Fulgrim and his yet further change of heart. Just a bit of 'I fancied seeing what that Demon was all about then I waltzed back in, no probs', oh and I'm a total bastard again'. This in complete contradiction to what has came before. Is this the McNeill paradox coming to the fore again? I'm surprised Magnus didn't make an appearance on his way to warn the Emperor about Horus.
> 
> As for Eidolon, I know most fans of the series (myself included) are clamouring for some bad guy deaths but come on. I was expecting better than that for someone who was a major character in the first few books and a first class dick to boot.
> 
> Some of this can potentially be better explained in Angel Exterminatus but to be honest I'm not holding my breath. I'm half expecting Eidolon to come back, Lucius to turn loyal again and Magnus to appear on his way to warn the Emperor.


I generally agree. Although, I am holding my breath as to whether or not the revelations of _Reflection Crack'd_ will be expanded upon or developed further. Is it plausable that the 'real' Fulgrim hasn't actually returned and the daemon managed to dupe Lucius and the others? Maybe, but I can't see that the way Mcneill is going to take it, and even then that would pretty much render the main plotline of _Reflection Crack'd_ pointless.

The off-hand death of Eidolon I didn't understand either. I am glad he died, major characters _need_ killing off, but at least let him go down fighting and screaming. The same applies to Nemiel, except he probably had more to give in the series - unless of course his death has some direct consequences for the remainder of the Dark Angels plot. 



mal310 said:


> Feat of Iron
> 
> I found it very boring. It took me over three weeks to read it and was a chore from start to finish. I have enjoyed some of Kyme's work in the past so I know he can write an entertaining story. This unfortunately was not one of them for me. Full of one dimensional stereotypical characters who were instantly forgettable. Manus does not come across very well throwing his toys out of the pram like a baby because he is last to destroy the Elder gate. I suppose its because one of his traits is his bull headedness but it just didn't work for me. Also thought the nod to the missing two primarchs completely pointless. Why say he never met them? How is that interesting?


Again, totally agree. _Feat of Iron_ was incredibly boring.



mal310 said:


> I just wish Aaron could be cloned multiple times and the whole series given to them.


Give one or two to Abnett, leave the rest to the clones, i'd be more than happy.


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## SoulGazer

If I had to guess, I'd say Alpharius is very intently trying to carry out the original plan of "Make Horus win, destroy Chaos, ????, Profit!" while Omegon is having second thoughts and trying to see if there is another way to win the war.

Of course, this could just be the mindset of the Alpha Legion so ingrained into them that they just don't know they're "striking from multiple ways" in that Alpharius is trying to win one way and Omegon is trying to win another way but neither of them really trusts the other enough to speak about it. Chaos is screwing with these guys too, it seems.

I wonder if at some point Alpharius tries so hard to destroy Chaos that he accidentally ends up "joining" them, or at least doing what they want, whereas Omegon is trying to help the Imperium and so remains "loyal."


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## TheReverend

Tywin Lannister said:


> .
> Ok can someone please explain to a stupid person - me - what the deal is with Alpharius and Omegon in The Serpent Beneath? Is Omegon trying to help the loyalists by letting the White Scars find out what is going on, or does he think Alpharius is helping the loyalists? Or have I completely missed the point?
> [/Spoiler]


I think Omegon his helping the loyalists. Destroying the array will allow the White Scars to get to terra. But on teh flip side, the antenna was ensuring warp space was clear in that area and that communication was good, so he's destroyed a great piece of technology that could have been used for teh betterment of mankind... who is on whose side is yet to become clear I guess.


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## theurge33

SPOILERS*****


















I mean, how badass was the Lion in his book??? I never really liked his personality, tho I am in the minority in liking the dark angel books. Previously he had great moments with plunging his sword into Curze and then dominating the Sons of Horus but his ripping through the ship with dual blades and his domination of the Lord of Change were just so badass! Also, his revealed un questioned loyalty to the Emporer at the end was awesome. All of this despite that I hated seeing Brother Nemiel beheaded lol


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## Words_of_Truth

Nemiel being beheaded was stupid, but I guess it'll play into the reason why Zachariel turns.


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## Sacred Feth

I've only read _Reflection Crack'd_ so far and I found it extremely tedious and pretty senseless. I liked the tragic ending of _Fulgrim_ and McNeill has completely robbed all meaning from that.


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## forkmaster

Did anyone else noticed the appearence yet again by the order of the Dragon in one of Gavs books? First they appeared in Delvierence Lost, and I suspected they to be a Chaos cult within the Dark Mechanicus which worshipped the Void Dragon, but now, after reading their insignia, "a dragon which chases and bites its own tail". Isn't that like the mark of Thousand Sons post-heresy? I think they might be a radical Tzeentch supporting cult.


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## theurge33

forkmaster said:


> Did anyone else noticed the appearence yet again by the order of the Dragon in one of Gavs books? First they appeared in Delvierence Lost, and I suspected they to be a Chaos cult within the Dark Mechanicus which worshipped the Void Dragon, but now, after reading their insignia, "a dragon which chases and bites its own tail". Isn't that like the mark of Thousand Sons post-heresy? I think they might be a radical Tzeentch supporting cult.


Yea, I am hoping it keeps expanding and/or tieing in stuff from Mechanicum, particularly the dragon of mars. There is a ncie thread going on in the fluff forum about this right now.


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## kwak76

Still reading the 'Primarchs", I read the Iron Hand story. I can see why the Iron Hand culture can be it's own draw back. 

The Iron Hand focus allot on strength. Ferrus Manus is all about going the direct way in winning. He does have the ability to strategies but is too stubborn to do other wise. Which can be a draw back in showing inflexibility but as the Iron Hand mantra is the "flesh is weak". 

I'm surprise the Iron hand is still around post heresy . You would think with that single mindedness that their own way of thinking will undo them. I can picture the Alpha Legion running circles around the Iron Hand. 

In defense of Ferrus Manus I think it's like some warrior culture focus solely on brute strength to win. I know that many readers may not like Ferrus Manus but I can see why Ferrus will disagree with Fulgrim . Ferrus for all his simple mindedness knows what is right and wrong. This is his strength but also his inflexibility. 

I wish there can be more of Ferrus Manus .


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## Brother Subtle

Had my own thread but I'll just merge it into this one. I still have a nagging question from
TSB.

From my old thread:
"Q2. In Omega. Omegon looks at his 'other' suit. What's the significance of this plain and unassuming set of armour? I think it was supposed to be a real 'holy s**t!' moment but the sound of a 2 year old screaming herself to sleep dulled the problem solving section of my brain. Anyone care to explain this to a tired father of 2?"

The Rev gave a good answer:

" this just re-states the fact that Alpharius and Omegon have different sets of armour so they can blend in with their troops. I guess this implys they also have a ceremonial set for when they need to stand out, or when one of their doubles needs to appear to be them..."

But expanding upon this I re-read the ending and...

1. His ceremonial plate was resting against the cell door.
2. His operational suit (regular AL issue) was in his arming cabinet.
3. His _other_ suit is resting next to the cabinet, under a shroud (hidden?). To quote "to the casual eye, it was plain and unadorned". 

To re-iterate. What is this mysterious 3rd suit? Rob write it in a way that the significance of this suit is very important. I just can't work out what it is and why?

Why has no one picked up on this yet?


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## theurge33

TheReverend said:


> I think Omegon his helping the loyalists. Destroying the array will allow the White Scars to get to terra. But on teh flip side, the antenna was ensuring warp space was clear in that area and that communication was good, so he's destroyed a great piece of technology that could have been used for teh betterment of mankind... who is on whose side is yet to become clear I guess.



It could be viewed that Omegon is actually siding with Chaos and the Imperium's destruction due to the fact he is helping the White Scars thus helping the Emporer's victory. As shown in Legion, this vitory would lead to the Imperium's destruction. If Alpharius is actually the loyal one (because he is sticking to the original plan) this could also mean that Guilliman kills the loyal twin in the future and is why the Alpha Legion is all Chaosy in 40k...

Haha..its really impossible to tell who is loyal, but we certainly know they are on opposing sides.


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## Brother Subtle

I love all the cloak and dagger stuff Alpha Legion being to the table. Such a nice change from some of the gun ho rambo type chapters. It's like unravelling a good spy story... 28,000 years into the future.


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## Khorne's Fist

Everybody has made good poits for either of the twins being loyal/traitor, so I won't add mine, but what I will say is that it does appear to me that there will eventually be a show down between them. These two are turning out to be the most interesting of all the primarchs so far.

This book has really whetted my appetite for Fear to Thread. There have been a few blips, but on the whole the series just keeps getting better.


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## Brother Subtle

Idea.

Post heresy. When Guilliman slays Alpharus/Omegon. Was the whole thing orchestrated by Alpharus to dispose of his twin. What's more ironic than Guilliman slaying the twin loyal to the imperium while letting the traitor get away?


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