# Not So Grim-Dark?



## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

I'm new to Fantasy so forgive me for any blatant falsehoods I may speak -- but to me Warhammer Fantasy is not nearly as grim dark as Warhammer 40k. Is this intention or am I missing some key event here?

I've read the 7th Edition Rulebook where it states that Acheron is the Lord of the End Times and that a giant Chaos Horde, largest in the world, is about to descend upon the World. But then, the book also says that each time as Everchosen rises, he is inevitably challeneged and (so far) killed by a good hero. Chances are Acheron won't be the lucky guy.

On top of that the Empire seems to be in a far better state than the Imperium. Its leader is supposedly the 'greatest statesmen in the known world'. The Empire, at least on the outside, seems very united behind the Griffon Emperors. To the south Bretonnia is, while not the equal of the Empire, still doing fairly well for itself. 

The High Elves still retain control over Ulthuan and are getting along well with the Humans and Dwarves (somewhat). Hell to me, its pretty much the ideal set up.

Compared to 40k, its not exactly an unreasonable place.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Its no where near the depressingly dark galaxy of 40k but its still not great.

The Empire is united but is barely hanging on: invasions of chaos forces and OnG have barely been repulsed, beastmen are rampant in parts and the skaven are an ever present threat.

The High Elves are in decline, having retreated from the Old World (Empire/Bretonnia), having Schismed into the 3 elven forces with a civil war raging between the high and dark elves and the portal of magic (or whatever its ment to be called) almost having sunk Ulthaun itself.

The Dwarves are falling back gradually from night goblins and are generally a pale shadow of their former selves but they are still a force to be respected.

The Lizardmen are pathetic compared to their height when the Old Ones ruled the planet... but that's not a great surprise.


Its not a bright future, but most WFB fluff does suggest that there will be a future, compared to 40k where most things are dying and decomposing.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

The whole chaos incursion is unclear as technically we have already had the great chaos incursion a few years ago in the the global campaign Storm of Chaos, and chaos lost, the last couple of WoC books have however jumped back in the timeline

If you live in a city of the empire your life expectancy is OK, but if you stray into the dark wood it drops, dramatically.

The races of men however have hope, which is lacking in 40k. The college of engineers are working to create crazy things and the colleges of magic are vibrant places of research. Karl Franz has done a lot to unify the fractous nature of the empire. Whenever they have to elect a new emperor they tend to have a civil war 

High elves (And the old world) are lucky that Finubar is the pheonix king, he has made them a player once again in the old world, rather than mysterious isolationists they became after the sundering. They are fading but as the current book states they can still impact the world 

Then again there is darkness stirring in Slyvania, Castle Drakenhof is once again guarded by ancient Wights, balefire burning, Orc tribes run rampant in the badlands, beasts howl in the woods....


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

The way I see it Warhammer is like 40k before the HH.

Unlike, 40k the empire is a bunch of xenophobic bastards


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

You have elves, dwarves and faeries, how could anything with all that be Grimdark?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> You have elves, dwarves and faeries, how could anything with all that be Grimdark?


Look at 40k, same thing minus the fairies, although who knows there could a race of xenos that look like mini humans with wings.

P.s. you forgot Kislev to the north who hold of most of the land bound chaos warbands. The main differences between 40k and f is that there is only 1 major threat, chaos while sure orks, VCs, and druchii are dangerous they aren't a major. Orks are more of a nuisance now, VC atleas the Carstens are to busy trying to stab each other in the back, the druchii are more of a trade/ coastal threat. Last but not least the 'good' races will actually stand together, unlike 40k when things have to be damn desperate/beneficial for even an eldar or human to help eachother.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Well at least its not me then. I was afarid I'd overlooked something.

Do yawl think thats one of the reasons why it doesn't appeal as much, fluff wise, to people as 40k?


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

No, I think 40k appeal more because it has scale, technology and aliens

A million Guardsmen die every day in 40k, I doubt there is a million men in the kingdom of empire and brettonia combined 

40K has Titans, Energy weapons, flyers, Super humans, Aliens, fantasy has swords and magic.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Barnster said:


> No, I think 40k appeal more because it has scale, technology and aliens
> 
> A million Guardsmen die every day in 40k, I doubt there is a million men in the kingdom of empire and brettonia combined
> 
> 40K has Titans, Energy weapons, flyers, Super humans, Aliens, fantasy has swords and magic.



I agree thats the reason why I stated playin 40k, reason why I stopped is I could never come up with a background for my army and I got tired of the books ending in similar ways, main char becomes a raving lunatic/mindless drone/corpse/robotic corpse, or a raving drone corpse.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I think 40k is a much more engaging reality and the nature of sci-fi and action makes it much more attractive. I much prefer the fluff and novels from 40k... but I think fantasy is a much better game to play.

Having said that there are certainly some aspects to the fantasy fluff which are legendary and really grab the attention.


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## Turnip86 (Oct 7, 2011)

I'm a fantasy player at heart and while I read 40k novels and even started by playing 40k I always end up back in the fantasy setting.

On the outside fantasy doesn't seem as dark but if you scratch the surface and read into stuff or even just let your imagination go it's actually a very dark setting. I think the main reason people don't see it as being as dark as 40k is that there's more of a comedy element to fantasy which is actually pushed more by the players building themed armies rather than devs purposely pushing it in that direction. That said, even the comedy elements have a darker side. 

The Empire vs Chaos is what most people immediately think of in fantasy and even that's pretty dark when you think of secret chaos worshippers and the threat of witch hunts. Also with the empire covered mostly in forest it's only really the larger settlements that are in anyway safe and even they have skaven living underneath ready to pour out at any time. 

40k seems darker I think because you don't really think too much about people's lives in general whereas fantasy is set in a world where war has a direct effect on peoples lives as in their jobs and homes - in 40k it's never really put into the narrative so it's JUST war, you don't see the 'everyday people' and therefore it's darker


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Good points all. Another thing occured to me when I read through the Daemons of Chaos Army book -- there is no where else to go.

In 40k, yes the average citizen is pretty much hide bound to his planet and usually to his work zone/district. But at the end of the day the Imperium has 1 million worlds between it and extinction.

If you think about it -- Fantasy has no where to go. If a Daemonic Incursion the size of the Warp Gate Rifts on the poles happened in 40k -- there would be Exterminatus declared and the entire ordeal concluded.

In Fantasy they can't do that. There is no leaving and all the arcane magic in the world cannot close those rifts. So if you look at it that way, and the fact that Chaos cannot ever be truly defeated -- the entire world is simply living on borrowed time.

I also suppose Fantasy has a more personal aspect to it. In 40k we regularly see millions die, or even billions in the span of three sentances. We don't feel much empathy and these lives become statistics. Who cares if 100 billion people die screaming ... in an Imperium of 500 trillion or so. If 200,000 people die screaming in Fantasy -- it would likely be a huge ordeal.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Good points Black Guard and I totally agree. Most of the Empire novels in fantasy are fairly bleak encounters where there are crap resources in somewhere that has seen better days that has to take on superhuman enemies to stop the whole Empire falling. Most of the time it comes down to one person doing something who usually ends up dying anyway.

Although I'm sure Gaunt would disagree with me, I'm pretty sure the actions of one guardsman mean diddly squat. Let's say he manages to save the day...In one battle...On one world...In one star system against one of the myriad enemies of the Imperium. I love the guard for being that one man who takes on everything with a laser pointer and a t-shirt but he's not really going to achieve much.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

Personally I like the WFB fluff better. Dunno. I just like swordfights better than gunfights.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

'An Ogre trusts his club, and will only eat it in the direst of circumstances'. Rhinoxen Lifting. Hell, Ogres in general.

Fantasy won't be grimdark so long as there are Ogres in the fluff.

I really like the fluff for Fantasy as it feels like battles are profound due to the world being just that; a world, not an entire galaxy. However, for the same reason, I dislike the current Fantasy meta (c'mon, how many Wizards in the fluff are Level 4? They're supposed to be rare and vastly powerful, not a dime a dozen). 

Characters in Fantasy also mean more to me in lore as there is more 'you' in your character - in 40k, I'll take a Librarian with Mastery 2, Divination/Telepathy, and Terminator Armour if I'm running Deathwing. This appears to be the standard loadout that Company Masters everywhere give to their Librarians, often 2 to a strike force. Fantasy, I can run even just a Bruiser as a tank (Heavy Armour, Enchanted Shield, Dragonhelm, Talisman of Endurance), a challenger (Giantbreaker, Heavy Armour, Brace of Ogre Pistols), a unit-killer (Sword of Bloodshed and Enchanted Shield), pretty much however I want, and he'll have a story - unlike 40k, he's not just another dude in another army. This makes the setting less grimdark and a little more personal - faceless Guardsmen die, that's a statistic. My Tyrant dies? That's a tragedy.

Midnight


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> However, for the same reason, I dislike the current Fantasy meta (c'mon, how many Wizards in the fluff are Level 4? They're supposed to be rare and vastly powerful, not a dime a dozen).



Well how many wizards are there other than those level 4 characters?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

If you look at what L4 is, you have Slann (around ~50-100 at most). These have had millenia to perfect their arts learned direct from a gods writings. Teclis is the greatest mage ever seen since Dragontamer even without his items and he has had a hundred or years in the most magical of nations. An elven prophetess to an entire nation of humans. The HEAD of the complete colleges of wizardry. A dragon possessed by a greater daemon of change and consequently magic. A vampire of unimaginable power risen from the dead. A vampire taught by nagash teachings, and the teachings of one third hand to nagash's influence and who enslaved a dragon to his will. An immortal who was taught by nagash himself.

These are once in a generation paragons: however they are trotted out in every game (and manage to blow themselves up in every game).


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Vaz said:


> If you look at what L4 is....


The fluff scale and the game scale are different measures: game Lvl measures only the ability to function on a battlefield. Teclis, the Slaan, &c. have immense power to do other non-battlefield magics and rituals, some well beyond the ability of a normal wizard, but that does not mean that a relatively common - for wizards - wizard cannot be in the top 25% of battlefield magic users as well.



Vaz said:


> These are once in a generation paragons: however they are trotted out in every game (and manage to blow themselves up in every game).


The number of special characters who turn up to every tiny battle is unrealistic. It also takes the fun out of killing them if you can do it more than once in each a tournament.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Alsojames said:


> Well how many wizards are there other than those level 4s


In game? All Hero level characters, ever, and most Lords. In lore? Pretty much all Mages are level 1 and 2, with a couple level 3s and then a very small class of level 4s (usually only those with both great magical aptitude and decades, if not centuries of experience are level 4, with powerful wizards such as college leaders being mostly level 3, maybe edging into 4 if they're really shit hot).

Midnight


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