# wargames empire (formerly 40kempire) no longer selling GW models



## edd_thereaper (Oct 21, 2008)

it has recently come to my attention that wargames empire is no longer selling GW produce despite still using GW artwork in their logo ect.

this is rather annoying for me as my good friend riandro ordered some dark elf warriors on the last day of free postage, when they were still selling them and on the paypal receit it says that are no longer selling GW produce and so the warriors won't be coming which is even more annoying. with the number of online stores dwindling i had put my trust in wargames empire as they were heresy's sponsor

link to site : www.wargamesempire.com

if anyone knows anymore about this it will be appreciated

also if this has already come up then ignore it

cheers

edd


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## Llamafish (Mar 3, 2009)

from what i been told, there reducing there links with GW due how badly treated there been by GW. IE GW failed to deliver orders, keep moving the goal post with discount and previews. GW have to supply other with models to prevent monopoly situ, but GW making it so no-one can afford to/be bothered with them. 

The Gareths are going to focus on other game format and affordable models (like Ultra-forge) and scenery.


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## jams (Sep 19, 2009)

they need to sort out their customer service first as their reputation has taken a battering lately.

luckily my order arrived, albeit wrong, but many others have lost out completely.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Two things:

1) Gift for Geeks is a great site for Games Workshop products, though admittedly since my local store has opened I've been buying most things in there.

2) Other companies can be just as tricky to deal with. For instance I bought some Khador Red Base (a Formula P3 colour) from Maelstrom Games, but since Privateer press have yet to send it to them, they've yet to send it to me.


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## KarlFranz40k (Jan 30, 2009)

Darnnit, so who is left? Gifts for Geeks and Wayland Games are all that I can think of, any others?


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

GW is killing off all independent stockists. It will happen. Once it does, no customer living outside the UK within 4 hours of a GW store can say g'bye! (Me.)


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## Adeptus (Aug 12, 2009)

Gw has to stop this . With the way my local stores being treated they will probably stop selling the models wich means soon there will be only a few shops left in ireland


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## Phrazer (Oct 14, 2008)

Dont want to come accross as advertising anyone, but i dont know what id do without G4G, great shop!!


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## tu_shan82 (Mar 7, 2008)

AS far as online stockists go the best IMHO has to be Wayland Games. It works out cheaper for me to buy from Wayland than the local online stores even with shipping. And turn around is quick also. I highly recommend these guys.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

tu_shan82 said:


> AS far as online stockists go the best IMHO has to be Wayland Games.


Yep, no doubt. They're the only abroad choice for me now, with the pound sterling being so weak. Shopping rampage coming up.


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

Just remember to shop with Wayland via the link on Heresy. It helps us heaps, especially with the plans we have coming up for the new year


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## CaptainLoken (May 13, 2009)

hmmm go on??????????????????????????????????????


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## Talos (Aug 4, 2008)

I use gift for geeks and wayland but with GW giving away free shipping (havent brought anything in a while dont know if they still do) I was only saving around a pound. So not really worth it,unless buying like a whole army at once. GW seems to be cracking down hard.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

It was bound to happen eventually with the way of the company trying to improve profit it's understandable, I mean apart from us here is AUS the world is still in a recession. I see it as they aren't getting the direct sales they'd like and so loosing a large profit margin as the online stores get it for the standard price it is and don't mark it up as much as a GW store would (obviously) and so GW see it as better if they control it more to in the long run put more back into thier pocket, remember though this doesn't mean crap all for us they are trying to switch the game to more plastic which takes money and lots of it to do so in the long run I can see it as a good move it just doesn't seem to crash hot right now.


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## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

*hmm*

GW are one of the best suppliers and companies to deal with.

To blame them for this is I'm sorry to say disingenuous.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

rich1231 said:


> GW are one of the best suppliers and companies to deal with.
> 
> To blame them for this is I'm sorry to say disingenuous.


I'm sorry to say this, but you are an idiot. Currently, as a Norwegian customer, buying from GW directly isn't even an option. They don't send via inland shops and as such the customer is charged customs. On top of that, they are rude enough to list their prices in Norwegian currency, to capitalize/avoid customer beneficial currency conversions (atm the pound is very weak.)

Per Norwegian law, as long as an item is listed in NOK, the seller is guaranteeing that the item is either already imported or that they are paying the import fees. GW does not. However, the legal hassle required to get each order customs free is such that most customers don't even bother. I've even heard stories of people that have been demanding customs free orders in this manner getting banned from buying via GW directly after several times of doing this. BANNED.

And don't take this as a rant for Norwegians only, anyone living anywhere in the world that's more than 4 hours from a GW store is affected by this shit.

As of now, buying from Wayland is very nice. There is a great discount on most items, shipping is cheap and fast, items are listed truthfully in pound sterling and as such it's cheaper than if I was to buy from an actual physical GW shop. Seeing as I don't have that option (I'm 21 hours,or 1,590 km away from the nearest one) I'm gonna take that option. 
_
And once that option goes away, I will be rampant._


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> I'm sorry to say this, but you are an idiot. Currently, as a Norwegian customer, buying from GW directly isn't even an option. They don't send via inland shops and as such the customer is charged customs. On top of that, they are rude enough to list their prices in Norwegian currency, to capitalize/avoid customer beneficial currency conversions (atm the pound is very weak.)
> 
> Per Norwegian law, as long as an item is listed in NOK, the seller is guaranteeing that the item is either already imported or that they are paying the import fees. GW does not. However, the legal hassle required to get each order customs free is such that most customers don't even bother. I've even heard stories of people that have been demanding customs free orders in this manner getting banned from buying via GW directly after several times of doing this. BANNED.
> 
> ...


You do realise Rich is the owner of Wayland Games? :taunt:


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Jezlad said:


> You do realise Rich is the owner of Wayland Games? :taunt:


I don't believe that. These are his actual words;



rich1231 said:


> GW are one of the best suppliers and companies to deal with.
> 
> To blame them for this is I'm sorry to say disingenuous.


Wouldn't that uttering be close to a financial death wish?

Anyway - I tend to explode when people utter statements that seem to indicate I should pay 300% more than everyone else because I live in Norway.


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

Right...

You were warned about this in a previous thread. Just take a step back and chill out before you start calling people idiots...


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Right. Chilling. Sorry to all parties.

However, it's hard to raise awareness about GW's tyrannical treatment of some international buyers without losing temper.

I'll try to be nice in the future


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## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

MetalHandkerchief...

I am the owner of Wayland.

I thought my point was clear in my post but to make it a it clearer. 

The co in question claimed it was practices of GW that brought them low or that GW were difficultt to deal with. As a trade customer, and without ego probably their largest in Europe I can state with some authority that GW are as a supplier to us in the trade are nothing short of brilliant. Their customer service is extremely good. What brought WE low was nothing to do with GW whatsoever.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

rich1231 said:


> MetalHandkerchief...
> 
> I am the owner of Wayland.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with Rich, wargames empire troubles cant be laid at GW's door, but that said Rich your company is one of if not the largest independent seller of GW stock, they are not likely to treat you like crap and im fairly sure the smaller ebay based companies that GW were begging for 3 years ago who are now unemployed thanks to GW's change of heart wouldn't agree with you.


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## Llamafish (Mar 3, 2009)

Dont think without discussing with WE themselves, ppl (opposing companies) should make statement saying the GW need/didnt bring them down. 

From what i gathered, GW are shit to deal with, and wasnt worth the hassle to deal with for the turnover that can be made. 

It ok when you have the workforce in place to deal with order, i dare say you have a workforce standing around being paid to pack orders regardless of the profit turnover of the order. 

There commited in the miniature hobby, but GW forced there hand not to stock there products. 

And dont think ppl should be scared to say what there believe on a forum, espically when in a legit experience from different countries (granted shouting idiot was slightly amusing outburst). 

There been other companies that HAVE gone to the wall because GW have changed the goal post on the level of discount each company recieve. And I be rather surprised if that trend does not continue!


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Reading these Forums about GW as a neglecting and evil Company depress me. Is there any good side to these people?:cray:


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## Valanehtar (Sep 10, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Reading these Forums about GW as a neglecting and evil Company depress me. Is there any good side to these people?:cray:


(bear in mind that all of this that follows has nothing to do with WE as I don't know their true situation.)

The upside is that they do put out an amazing product. Despite some codicies being in desperate need of updating, 40k is, in my opinion, the best mnigame out there (and I've tried a bunch). The problem stems from the fact that GW is trying so hard to corner the industry they are neglecting, and at times sabotaging, the very brick and mortar stores that made them so popular. I have lived up and down the east coast of the United States and have called no less than 6 (and maybe a couple more) gaming stores home, and they have all told me about problems with GW. Typically these are minor things, in the area of being difficult to deal with, but they get worse whenever GW is going to open their own store within a 50 mile radius. Then all of a sudden certain things are not orderable, shipments get delayed, and occasionally whole lines are pulled (I knew one store in Florida that was suddenly no longer allowed to sell Tau, Orks, or Dark Eldar) in an effort to get people to stop buying from the very store that had been promoting GW for 15 years and start shopping at the bunker. I don't know what GW's business model looks like but personally I think there are some problems with it...or at least it doesn't seem to make sense. Product is the same price at the bunkers as it is the the gaming stores, which means that the customer is not saving and GW instead of store owner is making the percent mark up (I honestly don't know what that mark up is). But that profit is being reinvested right back in the bunker for their tables and employees and such, so why even muscle out the gaming stores? This is where they lose me, its seems counter intuitive to knock out your own support, especially for no gain. 

Can anyone out there shine any extra light on this?


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

Not talking about wayland but just GW neglecting independent stockists.
Two of my stores have seriously reduced their stock of GW stuff and have both stopped giving their discounts.

I talked to both stores and they both said that any store giving a sizeable discount are treated terribly badly with regards to the new stuff coming out and order delivery dates. Also they afre refusing small orders from independent stockists and are insisting upon larger orders before delivery. This they have to take a bigger risk on GW products which they cant afford to take.

I have not placed my case well but discounts are not being given and availability has been stunted in my town and unfortunately it is GW that are at fault


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## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

*hmmm*

Its easy to believe in conspiracy theories and blame GW.

If you dont believe GW are a great company to deal with that is up to you. But I can state that in our experience they are excellent.

I would suggest you perhaps look at WE and they way they operated in the last few months...

They posted recently on some forums claiming all sorts of personal reasons why they were letting customers down.. no mention of supply issues.

You can also see on forums all over the place the clear indication that they simply stopped replying to emails and phone calls, that isnt GW's fault is it? Thats just bad service.

I know what has happened, their business model simply caught up with them.

They were selling at a price with their free shipping that on many orders they would be losing money. They left no margin to build stock levels or to pay for any customer service. It caught up with them.

When GW changed their trade terms in June rather than alter prices to ensure they had a sustainable business, WE didnt do their sums right.

GW will only not ship if you have no credit and or if you in breach of their trade terms and IP. Thats it, no other reasons.


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## Llamafish (Mar 3, 2009)

Think this tread turning into a PR thing now.... 

it not my place to reply to Richard Comment on behalf of WE.


There still Sale products, paints and Scenery.

just not GW....


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

i hear people blame GW all the time that small independent stockists have closed down, but a store that used to operate near me used to sing there praises as a supplier. He said they delivered frequently and quickly, gave advise on what stock to have, based on actual figures, so they have a core line of products which are the best selling items and spoke to them about why and how to sell them.

he closed down having been a company director for a major uk bank, and having decided to retire to a job that was his hobby, because he said he didn't understand the business model well enough when he opened, found that other suppliers than GW were out to screw you over[this destroyer is really popular and new you should buy 5....then he sells 1 and is stuck with 4 on his shelves for the next 2 years] and that there are large overheads to cover.

if your rent costs you £50 a day and you pay yourself £50 a day then you likely have to sell £300+ to break even. Hard to do in a small shop. and if you discount, you need to sell much more.


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## Uncle Nurgle (Jun 26, 2008)

Now hold up Rich, 

I'm mighty disappointed in you, throwing out all these fancy well based factual comments

I thought you was a stand up bloke and knew how things worked.

We don't take kindly to people taking kindly to the company that makes the majority of our hobby. If you want to be a part of these here message boards you got to baselessly slander gamesworkshop, otherwise well heck how are we going to deal with all these damn dead unicorns. 

I mean everyone knows that second you stop slandering gamesworkshop for acting like a business rather than a charity all those damn unicorns are going to start dying again. We don't want a repeat of 1972 do we now?

So what were you saying about gamesworkshop being holocaust denying baby eater?


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## slaaaaaanesh (Jan 15, 2009)

Limiting the orders to once a week has had a massive knock on effect on independent GW sellers. This obviously increases the time in which a store can ship an order depending on. And I guess even those who have 'warehouses' of stock seem to struggle as their websites always seem to show stock status are 'all order in only'.


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## Llamafish (Mar 3, 2009)

slaaaaaanesh said:


> Limiting the orders to once a week has had a massive knock on effect on independent GW sellers. This obviously increases the time in which a store can ship an order depending on. And I guess even those who have 'warehouses' of stock seem to struggle as their websites always seem to show stock status are 'all order in only'.


:good:

suppose it is a role of the dice if GW deal with you fair or not. Richard with his Warehouse and international business seem to be doing well for himself. And i glad for him

but lots of other business havent as this thread shown, maybe someone could write a list of companies that abandoned selling GW compared to companies successfully dealing with them. 

But is is rather amusing that MORE neglective comments are alway made on the forum/internet about stuff that actual positives! 

BASICALLY we all like to moan and complain - and i glad GW getting so much more costly and it make me focus scratch building and my dartfrogs!


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## the.alleycat.uk (Jun 11, 2009)

I was lucky with WGE in that i'm based locally and they did drop my stuff round after a couple of weeks and i'd been able to reach them by phone [this was a few months back.

Obviously, some business models aren't able to hold up in reality, this is hardly a new thing as in my time as a hobbyist i've seen a lot of independant stockists come and go and it has nothing to do with GW 'screwing' them.

I've ordered from a bunch of differrent online retailers and so far the best I have found are Gifts for geeks and Bits n Kits and haven't used Wayland [don't like the website] but... as a result of Rich's well put and calm responses I fully intend to place my next order with Wayland. [I just wish they had a decent hobby supply section because if they do, I can't find it ;p ]


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## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

*hmmmm*

I am reading between the lines on your post... hope you dont mind.

A little story for you..

Once upon a time a bloke, lets call him Richard noticed that a particular market was generally populated by entities not really treating it like a proper business.

As a bit of a techie and someone that was ok at interfaces between systems Richard built a quick site and decided to write a business plan. After a week the plan was out of date, as were the others that followed and business bloomed with all sorts of challenges.

now jump to now. The website initially created has lots of limitations that mean its very difficult to give real time stock levels. We give what we hope are worst cases. We hold far more stock than we claim on the site.. funny enough i have just asked the warehouse guys to take a few pics.

why do we give worst case.. we hate liars. Really hate them. Early on we started out with a 500sq foot warehouse... you cant store much in that space so we moved.. A major competitor was always show large quantites of stock yet we know had less space than us at that time.. it annoyed us as we knew we were so up front. We decided to still underplay stock levels as most people are pleasently surprised.


The new site we are having built is linked to our new warehousing software as are all the other channels we sell on and they all will update in real time their stock levels. Despite it sounding easy to type, doing this right takes a huge amount of effort. But its fun at the same time watching processes change.

I hope that gives some insight.

I will edit the post with pics shortly.




slaaaaaanesh said:


> Limiting the orders to once a week has had a massive knock on effect on independent GW sellers. This obviously increases the time in which a store can ship an order depending on. And I guess even those who have 'warehouses' of stock seem to struggle as their websites always seem to show stock status are 'all order in only'.


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## Llamafish (Mar 3, 2009)

that a good insight into your business capacity, *shame* you had to start the comment with a tone of sarcasm! So how many other business do you run out of the location? Guessing with such a step up would be madness to rely on GW.

Did you think before typing that Slaaaaanesh (or whatever his name was) was merely pointing out something that make other ppl not use your site for before you took the piss?

hope you put up the pic soon as we all interested to see them!


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## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

llamafish
Where was i sarcastic or taking the p1ss as you put it? I can assure you I wasnt.

http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/images/uploads/warehouse/029.JPG

http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/images/uploads/warehouse/030.JPG
http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/images/uploads/warehouse/031.JPG
http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/images/uploads/warehouse/032.JPG
http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/images/uploads/warehouse/033.JPG
http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/images/uploads/warehouse/034.JPG

Half the downstairs with the nightshift pretending to work.


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## Llamafish (Mar 3, 2009)

rich1231 said:


> I am reading between the lines on your post... hope you dont mind.
> 
> A little story for you..
> 
> Once upon a time a bloke, lets call him Richard noticed that a particular market was generally populated by entities not really treating it like a proper business.



Oh was that meant to be humour? just seem odd way to reply to Slaaaaannnsshhhh?


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## slaaaaaanesh (Jan 15, 2009)

Rich, I really wasn't mentioning anybody in particular there are other stores out there with warehouses and the stock link to the website had been a bit iffy. I don't think there was any need for your response, if i wanted to single you out I would have quoted your store name etc.....


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## the.alleycat.uk (Jun 11, 2009)

Methinks [10pts for use of word] this is heading toward flamey territory.

Reading things objectively, I think folks are taking things personally where there is no need.

A critisism of business plans is no insult to the actual people involved. One persons experience may not be the same as another.

My take on rich's reply to slaaanesh was that he was describing how they run their stock rating system rather than being offended... in fact it would appear that he is agreeing with slaaanesh about it being an issue with some sites and offerring insite into how he worked around the problem.

See, all friends here, friends who like tiny little men killing each other


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

the.alleycat.uk said:


> See, all friends here, friends who like tiny little men killing each other


Let me guess, you work for GW


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## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

slaaaaaanesh said:


> Rich, I really wasn't mentioning anybody in particular there are other stores out there with warehouses and the stock link to the website had been a bit iffy. I don't think there was any need for your response, if i wanted to single you out I would have quoted your store name etc.....


Slannnesh

i didnt take your remarks personally.. I didnt take offense nor did i think your remarks were aimed at us. But i took ther opportunity to show that many internet retailers do indeed hold lots of stock. And my point post on topics is that failures of internet retailers makes the rest of us look bad as it knocks buyers confidence in the rest of us who are doing a good job.

Its a strange market where buyers will decry a retailer that sells anywhere near RRP as a ripoff yet the tiny margins that allow a shop to compete when discounting still engender the idea that all shops will have everything in stock all the time. 

Im typing all this on a netbook with the most irritating keyboard yet invented so excuse any typos.


The once a week ordering does cause some delays if we run out of something but generally most retailers would have now adjusted to the limitation.


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## the.alleycat.uk (Jun 11, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Let me guess, you work for GW


Nope... used to a long time back though. Then money became more useful than more toys than I could hope to paint [that said, i still buy more toy men than I can hope to paint... well actually, I can _hope_  ]


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## primeministersinsiter (May 31, 2009)

I think everybody needs to relax.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

rich sell me those copies of space hulk


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## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> rich sell me those copies of space hulk


I knew I should have checked the pics more closely 

I really can't. We had to buy those at a GW store ourselves to make sure we didnt let many customers down.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Well Rich you know were i am if you want to off load them,i dont have an issue paying full retail for them.


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## dirty-dog- (May 14, 2008)

lol, what a crack up.

from a store closing to selling space hulk at retail lol.

i do hope the best for these guys, and all the other stores like rich's, cause if you guys didnt exist, i would not be in this hobby, i would have gone out of it many months ago.


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## Uncle Nurgle (Jun 26, 2008)

Before I continue I just want to summarise my impression of the attitudes and general feelings coming across in this thread, just in case I’ve gotten the wrong end of the stick and the following comments come across as irrelevant.

The general feeling I get is that GW treats most of its independent retailers like crap, poor delivery times, terrible service? And this you guys get from not your own experiences of course, but from secondary sources? Then someone with intimate knowledge of how GW treats it's independent retailers comes along (thank you rich) and states an opposite opinion and you all think that his experience must be unique?

Okay if that is the case then instead of my previous (and I think quite witty, but whatever) comment I’m going to try and lay down some logic.

If you can kindly click on the following link you will find GW's year end 09 report, if you can down past Kirby's opening gamble, you should find on page 4 an interesting pie chart.

This chart shows where GW makes its sales from in 2009/2008 and if you're too lazy to click, here it is:

Direct sales (i.e. mail order, the net) 11% [09] 12% [08]
Hobby Centres (i.e. your local GW store) 48% [09] 49% [08]
Independent retailers (i.e. wargamesempire, rich's company) 41% [09] 39%[08]

So here we go, 41% of all the sales during the 09 period were made through selling to independent retailers. Now why on earth would a company that makes just under half of its overall sales from one source treat that source so terribly? Just think about that for a bit, don't respond back straight away with comments like 'because they know that can do that and keep selling anyway' because that’s crap, a large PLC such as GW isn't going to base it's entire business strategy on, 'cause we know we can and no one can stop us'. 

Isn't it more likely that the horror stories are made by people who have screwed up their own business and find it easier to blame than take responsibility? Now clearly there are going to be examples of times when GW genuinely have made an ass out of themselves, but that’s only natural as you know, they're a freaking business not your grandfather and aren't going to behave in a way that gives you sodding sweets 24/7.


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## tu_shan82 (Mar 7, 2008)

slaaaaaanesh said:


> Limiting the orders to once a week has had a massive knock on effect on independent GW sellers. This obviously increases the time in which a store can ship an order depending on. And I guess even those who have 'warehouses' of stock seem to struggle as their websites always seem to show stock status are 'all order in only'.


I hate to tell you this,but even GW's own retail stores only get resupplied once a week also.


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## tu_shan82 (Mar 7, 2008)

rich1231 said:


> llamafish
> Where was i sarcastic or taking the p1ss as you put it? I can assure you I wasnt.
> 
> http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/images/uploads/warehouse/029.JPG
> ...


I think I just had nerdgasm looking at all that sweet sweet hobby goodness.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Uncle Nurgle said:


> So here we go, 41% of all the sales during the 09 period were made through selling to independent retailers. Now why on earth would a company that makes just under half of its overall sales from one source treat that source so terribly?


In order for retailers and GW to have a relationship, the price GW sells product to unaffiliated shops is of course lower than if they were to sell directly to the end user.

In turn, this means that as soon as GW has the capacity to be the sole distributor to the end user (i.e. enough warehouse space, production volumes) they want to have the market cornered.

As GW's own capacity grows, they will seek to eliminate a % of independent stockists equal to that growth. As soon as GW has the cap. to supply all the world's players/collectors with product on their own, they will damn well try to be the only ones to do so.


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## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

*blimey*

MHK,

I strongly believe you are incorrect on what you assume to be GW's strategy.


You cannot look at what you suggested without understanding the costs involved for a GW store to function.

Currently I would suggest that an indy selling £1 of product makes more margin for GW than GW's own store would.

If you owned GW and were told..

You can sell £100 million through your own network of stores but have very high cost base to achieve those sales. And would see limited growth for the next few years as you would only allow your own stores to stock product... so those new locations would all have to be viable with the current GW store models.

Or you can sell £60 million in your own stores, 40 to indies, then over the next few years ciyld mitigate some of your costs onto indies by changing their tems to push them into opening idenikit copies of your store model.. leading to growth without costs really increasing..

Which route would you take?




MetalHandkerchief said:


> In order for retailers and GW to have a relationship, the price GW sells product to unaffiliated shops is of course lower than if they were to sell directly to the end user.
> 
> In turn, this means that as soon as GW has the capacity to be the sole distributor to the end user (i.e. enough warehouse space, production volumes) they want to have the market cornered.
> 
> As GW's own capacity grows, they will seek to eliminate a % of independent stockists equal to that growth. As soon as GW has the cap. to supply all the world's players/collectors with product on their own, they will damn well try to be the only ones to do so.


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## Jardezz (Aug 6, 2008)

From what I heard from a local store nearby, GW changed their orderpossibillities.
They want to stop the cheapselling stores, and they try to do so by allowing them only one order per month.

I bought my last GW product in a real GW2 years ago, then I found 40kempire, and now it is gone. Glad for me I allready have a great number of models/armys.

GW is going to damn themselfs with this kind of politics...


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## Selorian (Jun 17, 2008)

This is a very interesting debate and one that I have almost on a daily basis.

From our point of view, Games Workshop has made a move against Independent retailers. 

In our opinion, this started a couple of months ago when Independent Retailers were asked to remove all images of products and product descriptions from their website. This is a very unusual situation and many distributors/manufacturer supply retailers with product images, descriptions and videos as they want to help generate sales and professionally represent their products .

By independent websites not being able to provide images of their products (unless you use a photograph of the box), customers without prior knowledge of what the item is, do not know what the item/items look like. This also results in independent retailer websites looking unprofessional and untrustworthy.

Shortly after being told to take down our images and descriptions, Games Workshop began to advertise on Google as ‘Genuine Games Workshop’. Genuine suggests that they are to be trusted and that other sources are not. 

At the same time, they began offering free shipping which negates a significant portion of savings offered via independent retailers.

Compared to the other companies that we deal with, (Diamond Comics, EE Distribution, Warlord Games, Urban Mammoth, Avatars Of War etc) Games Workshop can be exceptionally difficult to work with.

Since February they have lost our list of orders and payments twice, on numerous occaision supplied us with the incorrect amount due, constantly get orders incorrect, often have items out of stock, state we will receive pre-orders only to tell us that they will not be available, without notification make items direct only , and worst of all, due to VAT now being excluded from retailer discounts, our discount is reduced by 15% (soon to be 17.5%).

Prior to the new Terms & Conditions, discounts to independent retailers included VAT and offered a discount ranging from 35-40% off. Since the new Matrix system (or a name like that), discounts now exclude VAT. 

I.e.£100 RRP - 35% Discount - £65 + VAT @ 15% = £74.75 cost. (Previously this would have cost £65.00 including VAT)

The majority of online retailers were offering 20% off which would mean that for an order with a RRP value of £100.00, retailers would now make £5.25 which equates to around 7% profit. It’s worth noting that credit card transactions often have a processing fee (can exceed 4%) and that online shops can get a maximum discount of 35% off.

Wayland Games seem to be a hot topic in this thread. Taking Richard’s pictures into account, they have a large warehouse, 4+ staff members, Richard‘s wage, utility bills, VAT, National Insurance, credit card transaction charges, website advertising fees, website maintenance fees, accountant etc etc That equates to a lot of metal men and without a worthwhile discount, it really isn’t worth it.

A recent situation which made us very angry the availability of Space Hulk. We were told in writing that we were guaranteed a minimum of five copies of Space Hulk (all retailers were promised five copies). Based on this information, we took pre-orders for the five Space Hulk available to us.

On the day of ordering (around 9.30 am), we were told that Space Hulk was sold out and would not be available again. Obviously we were very unhappy with this situation and had to notify our customers that we would not be able to provide them with their item (which makes us look bad). 

A couple of days later, it was well documented on the internet (and muttering in GW stores) that larger companies were provided with more than five copies of Space Hulk and despite the item being in stock, smaller companies were told that Space Hulk was out of stock. Should there be any truth behind this, it is absolutely outrageous.

In conclusion, I’m not surprised that online retailers are slowly drifting away.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

Its not just the online retailers that are suffering many of the smaller shops in my area, the toy shops and model shops, That supplied GW product have been forced to stop, Not so much by GW but because the minimum order they have to place to far exceeds what they can hope to sell before the next new releases are due.
Leaving them with loads of backlog that few people would buy without a massive discount.
Most of the shops that did sell gw stuff now just have a few sorry remnants sat on their shelves and only a few of the larger chain toyshops and a small model shop keep up to date.
Its not like Norfolk is overrun with GW stores to start with.


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## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

Hi Selorian,

thanks for the name check 

We have to disagree with you though on a few of your points.

Re the pictures and Images thing, yes its annoying. GW suggest its to protect their IP. Which after putting the question to legal advisors there is some strength to their argument in GW's assertion. Its nit a huge effort to ensure descriptions and images are taken on delivery for newer items etc and unique descriptions are always of use.

But I agree its a silly thing to do and alienates many trade customers as the benefits outweigh the risk. Im not GW's IP adviser etc so its not upto me.

GW despite being a largeish company are very low tech in their back end processes. This lack of technology means that gasp... humans are involved and they make mistakes. We sometimes have items missing from an order that we have to call about and the issue is always resolved promptly with no fuss.

Re Direct only items.. in a lot of cases its just that Trade sales are not set up to communicate movements to DO and are not told by their bosses. Annoying yes but not some conspiracy to p1ss you off. 

Re Space Hulk..

We were in same boat as you, we didnt get any .... so we went and bought them at RRP.. 40 of them to satisfy the pre orders we had. We took a hit on them for customer service reasons. Annoying that Trade didnt have enough.. but its not GW acting against you, its that their various depts dont work together well enough and they can be a little clumsy internally.



GW minimum order size is pretty small and inline with most other suppliers of toys and games etc. GW want their product in as many retail/etail locations as possible as long as thoses sellers sell the product professionally and adhere to their guidelines.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

So GW aren't trying to undermine anyone, they are just so incompetent that it works out that way?

In the world of business that isn't much of a defence.


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## rich1231 (Sep 6, 2008)

*Reality*

Oddjob
running a business isnt for everyone.

GW is not incompetent.. but some indies are not any good at running a sustainable business. The finger was unfairly pointed at GW in this and in the past by many other indies when what really has happened is that those that have run a failing business need a big bogeyman to blame.

Many individuals have the hobby skills and are interested in the dream of owning a store or operating a website yet the reality and the large number of bills to pay suggest that very low prices and free shipping will quickly lose you money and leave you unable to fulfil orders... You can see it happen again and again. Not just in this market though.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I had a friend who started up a small gaming shop about 15 years ago, and even then the buying stock from GW was rough, forced drops and minimum stock purchases just killed his business in the end. But att he same time he made a lot of mistakes which were just compounded by the tough terms of GW. 

Now in this case I'm fairly sympathetic to Wargames Empire's cause. I run a small software company myself so i know how hard it is to start up in business and the various pitfalls that can come. But they have committed the cardinal sin, lack of communication. I ordered some stuff from them and if they had emailed me once, or even answered their phone saying they'd fucked up and it was a bust then it would have been fine. It was money I was spending on tiny plastic spacemen so I didn't really need it. With their lack of communication it looks more and more like they have fucked themselves and it has nothing to do with GW at all. I've forwarded my complaint to the Nottingham Police and Trading Standards and I'll let them sort out the matter. 

The simple fact is Gareth Fox and Wargames Empire have stolen money from me, and by not even trying to communicate they've compounded the issue. 

Aramoro


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