# Phoenix Lords



## reasnd (Jan 14, 2009)

Not long ago I got hold of my first Phoenix Lord. Krandras, I've had one game with him. He spent his time with a unit of 10 Scorpians and was very succesfull. This lot managed to take out a mob of 6 nobs, three deffkopters and a mob of 20 boys led by a nob. I've also play tested him(solo) against a mob of 12 'ard boys, without much success.
I had som much fun with him that I've now got Jain Zar and Fuegan, haven't played them yet. Any way I was wondering how others out there play their Phoenix Lords? I seem to think that they need some support, to take wounds, otherwise they just don't hang arround long enough to warrent the points spent.
The other question I have is about Phoenix councils. Is this in the codex? Mine is still on loan. Are they effective? do they warrent the HUGE point cost that it would take to assemble one? and how do they fit into the force organisation? ie, do they take one HQ slot? and can you split them up once the game is under way? I'm asking because I want Asurmen and I'm wondering if I should bother with Baharroth and Maugan Ra.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

reasnd said:


> The other question I have is about Phoenix councils. Is this in the codex? Mine is still on loan. Are they effective? do they warrent the HUGE point cost that it would take to assemble one? and how do they fit into the force organisation? ie, do they take one HQ slot? and can you split them up once the game is under way? I'm asking because I want Asurmen and I'm wondering if I should bother with Baharroth and Maugan Ra.


No, they're not in the current codex (they were in the craftworld eldar book for 3rd ed). No, they're not effective. No, they don't warrant their huge point cost.

I forget what force org slot they were, but I'm almost certain it was an HQ.

I do remember it was a biel-tan thing with an avatar and a bunch of exarchs. Don't think they were actually pheonix lords.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

There are 2 versions of the "Court".

The Court of the Young King was a 3rd Ed Craftworld Eldar entry. It was 1 Exarch of each Shrine plus the Avatar, they fought as one unit.

There is also an Apocalypse formation, not sure of the name, which is every Phoenix Lord plus an Avatar. It is expensive and possibly not very good due to not being able to be mounted in a Serpent.

There are a couple of problems with the Phoenix lords:

1. They are not as good as Eldrad.
2. They aren't as good as a Farseer, point for point.
3. They don't really add anything to a squad of 10 Aspect Warriors that the Warriors wouldn't be able to do in the first place. For example adding Fuegan to Fire Dragons is like dipping twiglets in marmite, you have to buy the marmite and it doesn't change the flavour much. Dragons kill tanks with or without his help.

However I would like to play one or two of them for "fun". As I normally play "seriously" with my Eldar it would be nice as a break. Wouldn't want to do it all the time though.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Sethis said:


> For example adding Fuegan to Fire Dragons is like dipping twiglets in marmite, you have to buy the marmite and it doesn't change the flavour much.


I have no idea what twiglets or marmite is, but I want some :grin:


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## ninja skills (Aug 4, 2009)

i agree that most phenix lords are pretty poop compaired to a faarseer but you can still have some fun karandras' 7 attacks on the charge (i think) a maugan ra is just so cool its insane (in second edition his maugatar could cut a land raider in half!)


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Feugan is a great PL, I would use him along side a farseer in a list very happily add him to a seer council = CC even better unit


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I used Jain Zar in a game the other day, and she wasn't terrible. If you could assault out of a vehicle she might even be quite good. But at 190 points just too expensive. They are fun for fun games, quite fluffy etc to have them as your HQ choice but not actually good. 

Aramoro


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Culler said:


> I have no idea what twiglets or marmite is, but I want some :grin:


Oh yeah, I forgot that Twiglets are probably fairly colloquial. Um.

To americans it'd probably be "Dipping a Hershey's in Nutella".

To australians it'd probably be "putting even more cheese on a kangeroo cheeseburger".

Or something...  :wink:


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Sethis said:


> Oh yeah, I forgot that Twiglets are probably fairly colloquial. Um.
> 
> To americans it'd probably be "Dipping a Hershey's in Nutella".
> 
> ...


WTF? We don't eat kangeroo. Hell, we don't even eat Kangaroo


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Phoenix Lords are very powerful, but some of them become kind of obsolete amongst a unit of their Aspect.
Basically, they should accompany the unit until it's convenient for them to leave, and then do their own thing.

Except Karandras, he's the only one who really shines with his unit.
He adds diversity of function (ie: killing Vehicles and MEQ quite well), and also provides some nice unit-wide bonuses.

*edit*
Actually, Karandras and Asurmen.
The others can go on their own fairly well.

Except Baharoth, Swooping Hawks just aren't good.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> WTF? We don't eat kangeroo. Hell, we don't even eat Kangaroo


Actually we do.
It's not exactly commonplace, but you can buy kangaroo meat, supposedly it's quite nice.

Hell, they aren't exactly endangered, why not use them as our own home-grown cattle?

..Just don't try and milk one, that'll end in tears.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Sounds intrieging. On the other hand, doesn't Australia still have invasive species problems, ie a rabbit invasion? I mean, as a considerate carnivore your first thought should be to depopulate tasty animals that are not meant to live there.

I mean, the Kiwis did it for the white-tailed deer, right?

Karandaras, while solid, just seems like he's lacking that certain something. And by "certain something" I mean an initiative value and/or invuln save. Granted, he's got EW, but t4 and a 2+ save really isn't that great. I mean, didn't GW decide that terminators with a 5++ save just didn't cut it?

Jain Zarr and Maugan Ra are both still not amazing, but at least they're both less than 200 points. S6 is the points where infantry killers really settle in. It's not particularly good against TMCs and/or things that need instakilling, but at least it functions as a decent enough lawnmower against just about anything.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I wrote a massive Tactica on Phoenix lords...its on the forum in the tactica section somewhere.

Basically, Karandras works well no matter what, he can hurt pretty much anything. Best used against Orks however, imo.

Maugan Ra is shooting king. Against everything and anything. Sadly, doesn't gel that well with other Reapers. He belongs in a guardian meat shield...er unit. As his fire power is like a mega heavy weapon, and his 4 str6 no save attacks at I7 are a nice surprise in CC aswell.

Asurman is neither here nor there, he can one hit kill things...and he fires 4 shots in the shooting phase, enemies lose an attack against him, and he can blade storm. But is beaten in CC by Karandras and in shooting by Maugan Ra.

The others are so so, Baharroth being little more than a powered up Exarch, thus, not much use in anything other than planet strike.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Baharroth and Maugan Ra both suffer from the fact their shooting is AP5 and thus useless. 

I like Karandas, if he was 150-175 points I would definitely play him. 7 S8 Power Claw attacks on the charge is good, with Infiltrate and Stealth. If Striking Scorpions had Fleet then he'd be pretty awesome. 

Aramoro


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Winterous said:


> Actually we do.
> It's not exactly commonplace, but you can buy kangaroo meat, supposedly it's quite nice.
> 
> Hell, they aren't exactly endangered, why not use them as our own home-grown cattle?
> ...


Aye, but as a general most don't


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Well the other week I bought 2 Kangaroo burgers (in the UK!) so I assumed that even if it wasn't as popular as Beef or Pork or Chicken or whatever, you might have it on your shelves. :grin:

I was mostly taking the piss anyway!

Maugan Ra is the most awesome model, but his Shuricannon really needs to be AP2... Or AP1... :grin:


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Sethis said:


> Well the other week I bought 2 Kangaroo burgers (in the UK!) so I assumed that even if it wasn't as popular as Beef or Pork or Chicken or whatever, you might have it on your shelves. :grin:
> 
> I was mostly taking the piss anyway!


I know, I was just trying to take the piss out you spelling it wrong, the wrong part got the spotlight :grin:



Sethis said:


> Maugan Ra is the most awesome model, but his Shuricannon really needs to be AP2... Or AP1... :grin:


Maugan Ra is pretty awesome, I love the whole black armour, skull helmet look (which applies to chaplains and Death Jesters too).


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## Shadowfire (Mar 20, 2010)

All the Phoenix Lords look awesome, but when it comes down to gaming, only Karandras has come anywhere near Eldrad/Avatar/Farseer/Autarch options when the goods need to be delivered, in my experience.

For the fluffy legends they have you'd kinda expect a lot more from them, but they prove to be about as viable as Shining Spears, look great on paper but just don't play out as they should.

To keep my opponents guessing, (I don't like to turn up with a predictable army list) I do on occaision pop Karandras in a maxed unit of Scorps and _Infiltrate_ them, scuppers most opponents plans 

But for effectiveness in game, see above consensus


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## Weirdboyz (Apr 12, 2009)

The current Apoc. formation is called the Phoenix Court of Khaine. The datasheet can be found in the Apoc. Reloaded book. I have never dropped it on the table myself, as it eats up a sh*t-ton of points, and most of the Apoc. games at my FLGS are 3-4k army lists.

Despite Maugan Ra's AP5 shots, his gun is also Rending and he has the ability to Ignore Cover. Thus, I wouldn't say he really falls into the realm of useless.

My biggest beef with the Phoenix Lords (save Asurman) is the lack of an Inv. save. Power weapons are the death of them, and makes any assaults they get involved with very tricky (as in, everything needs to be dead before they can hit back).

Over-all, the Lords are somewhat over-priced for not having either: 1) an inv. save, or b) the ability to influence the FOC chart in some way (like make their Aspect scoring, etc.).


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Weirdboyz said:


> the ability to influence the FOC chart in some way (like make their Aspect scoring, etc.).


This is something that I imagine will be implemented in the next generation of Eldar codex.
Take a Phoenix lord (hopefully we'll have a Warp Spider one by then, and maybe a Shining Spear one!), and you can take them as troops / they count as scoring.
There could perhaps be a special kind of HQ choice (spirit-seer) which allows Wraithguard to be Troops, and maybe Wraithlords be Elites as well.
Autarchs will definitely confer some interesting abilities to your army, as that's basically what they're all about, they're supposed to be incredible commanders, but right now they're just teleporting Melta guns.


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## Shadowfire (Mar 20, 2010)

No denying Maugan Ra has lovely stat lines/abilities, but have you tried using him?

in a unit of Reapers, their different strengths mean that whichever target you shoot at you are wasting half the points of the combined unit
Reapers want MEQ, Mr Ra doesnt

in any other unit, you'll struggle to match his abilities up, though I haven't tried with Ranger/Pathfinder, that just wouldn't 'feel' right.

Solo = deaded. Actually waves a flag at opponent with a big target 

which kinda brings me to the inv save bit, good point, why don't they, too easy to pop, though that is kinda Eldar-esque I suppose, powerful, yet fragile, though if memory serves me right Fuegan does have _Feel No Pain_


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Sadly anything which ignores Fugens 2+ armour save will also ignore his FNP, Thats the issue with them, no invulnerable save makes then too easy to kill with power weapons. 

Aramoro


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## Shadowfire (Mar 20, 2010)

Good point, so very Eldar, more than capable of dishing it out, but always so fragile too

damn, I love playing Eldar:grin:


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Winterous said:


> This is something that I imagine will be implemented in the next generation of Eldar codex.
> Take a Phoenix lord (hopefully we'll have a Warp Spider one by then, and maybe a Shining Spear one!), and you can take them as troops / they count as scoring.


Mental image of a Phoenix Lord fighting from a platform on the back of an AV12 Vyper with a big fuck-off laser lance = awesome.



Winterous said:


> There could perhaps be a special kind of HQ choice (spirit-seer) which allows Wraithguard to be Troops, and maybe Wraithlords be Elites as well.
> Autarchs will definitely confer some interesting abilities to your army, as that's basically what they're all about, they're supposed to be incredible commanders, but right now they're just teleporting Melta guns.


Developers, READ THIS PLEASE!!

However Autarchs do have another use; they let you outflank 2 Squadrons of War Walkers on Turn 2 with full Scatter Lasers and Eldrad in a Serpent between them casting Guide and Doom. Which is all kinds of awesome. :good:


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## Shadowfire (Mar 20, 2010)

Curious, how do you get Eldrad in a Serpent to cast on the flanking Walkers at the beginning of the turn 2?


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Well, WL at Elites still wouldn't fix them. They'd still be competing with Fire Dragons.

It really will be a shame if FD get nerfed. They aren't even remotely overpowered- just solid role-players in an army that sadly lacks this. Plus ap1 is neccesary for good armour killing these days.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Cyklown said:


> Well, WL at Elites still wouldn't fix them. They'd still be competing with Fire Dragons.
> 
> It really will be a shame if FD get nerfed. They aren't even remotely overpowered- just solid role-players in an army that sadly lacks this. Plus ap1 is neccesary for good armour killing these days.


I didn't suggest it would be a fix to them, just allowing you to have an awesome Iyanden spam list.
The fixing to units would be entirely separate.

I also imagine that Bright Lances will be reduced in cost, because they cost too much.
Quite possible Fire Dragons will be nerfed a small amount, perhaps a slight increase in cost.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Bah. Don't reduce them in cost. Make them s9ap1 and make them cost MOAR. Well, only 5 pts more.

Make starcannons s7ap1, or make the s7ap2 and cut their cost. Our all-rounder anti-armour will now be "expensive, kickass anti-armour", so we'll need something for lighter stuff that isn't scatterlasers. Mind you, scatterlasers would still be the best weapon for AV10 popping due to volume, with scatterlasers and SCs being slightly in favor of SCs for av11 due to the dynamic between SLs getting the same number of Pens and twice as many glances and SCs actually getting something reasonable from glances and roxxorzing on pens. Wait, maybe not "slightly".

Starcannons would therefore be decent light vehicle killers that are still worse than starcannons against everything except for MEQS marching around in open terrain. In light terrain (y'know, anke-depth grass for that 5+ cover save) SCs and SLs would tie against MEQs, and in actual cover SLs would still be better.


Fire Dragons don't need nerfing. They need a codex where other options are worth it. It's our only reliable vehicle killer. If you think about it, EVERYONE is spamming melta weapons these days. The only different is that everyone else is doing it with, like, troops. Heck, even tau, who get s10 ap1 weapons is putting meltaweapons on fast skimmers and including them in their army.

The fact that you see at least 1, usually 2 or 3 units of fire dragons in every squad is because a) BLs are a tad overpriced, b) Fire Prisms require two vehicles to give them ANY other ap1 shots, c) the other unit with a close-ranged vehicle killer is a non-ap1 unit that wasn't great BEFORE their weapon became relatively bad at killing tanks and d) you HAVE to pop vehicles to win anymore. The fact that we "have" to take fire dragons, if anything, is an added downside.

They just need to make the other units better. Make Warshout auto-perk on banshee's and drop their price a point. maaaybe give them a second executioner in the squad if they're over a certain size. Give scorps... something.


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