# Were the Dark Angels the only Legion to include non "true" astartes?



## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Simple question for a possible project I may do, I know the DA's allowed at least at first non Astartes to join their ranks, put them in PA and off they went. Were there any other Legions that did this as well or was it just the DA's?


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## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

I think most Legions did well except for Angron and Alpharius with thiers though as the homeworlds they came from didn't really get brought into the Imperium like the other Primarch worlds did.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Kor Pheron was not a 'true astartes'. He like Luthor was modified in other ways to get close to a Space Marine. There were likely some in many of the legions, or at least those whose Primarchs had suitable mentors or followers.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

I would imagine that some of the Space Wolves were of the non-astartes variety as well. It was originally noted the the Wolf Brothers (those who had fought alongside Russ before the Emperor came) were older than the nominal age for implantation but underwent the various surgeries anyway.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

The short story 'Wolf at the Door', by Mike Lee, described the Thirteenth Great Company as having been formed around warriors who had fought alongside Leman Russ for many years before the Emperor's arrival. None of them was "... younger than twenty years."

They were warned that the process of becoming Astartes would kill them, but none of them would be dissuaded. Out of the hundreds of the men who had comprised the companions of Leman Russ, "almost two score" survived.



> _"Ever since, the other warriors of the Legion referred to the Thirteenth as the Greybeards. The members of the company, however, called themselves the Wolf Brothers."_


Kor Phaeron is another notable non-Astartes, but the Dark Angels seem to be the only Legion to have introduced such warriors in significant numbers:



> _"[Sar Hadariel] had been chosen to join the Dark Angels Legion by the Astartes, but in common with a large proportion of that initial intake, he had been too old to benefit from the implantation of gene-seed.
> 
> In its place, Hadariel, and others like him, including Luther, had undergone an extensive series of surgical and chemical procedures designed to raise their strength, stamina and reflexes to superhuman levels. They were taller, stronger, and quicker than normal men, but for all that they were not Astartes. They never could be."_


I find it interesting that this was qualified for the Dark Angels... but not other Legions. There are a couple of ways to go about that:

1. The original fluff holds that the Legions were not all fielded at the same time: Alpharius, for instance, was found right as his Legion was being introduced. Under that scenario, the Legion that was the oldest - and thus the one that would have been fighting the longest - would need the most replacements. Thus, "stop-gap" semi-Space Marines might make sense until Caliban's recruiting got going. The newer fluff, though, (see 'Betrayal') holds that all twenty Legions were founded at the same time... albeit in regiment-size units (of "hundreds" of warriors) initially.

2. The Lion could very well have been intent on introducing the Calibanite element to the First Legion. He wanted the Order's traditions, training processes, and style of leadership to be incorporated by the Legion he inherited. The only way to ensure that would be to ensure that the best of the Order's heroes were represented somehow. That way, the actual adolescent recruits from the Legion's homeworld would have leaders and mentors who would bring them up in the same way.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

By the impression i have got, whereas Luther was more a chapter master type figure and not elevated into Astartes armour, hence although he was an enhanced Human, the Dark Angels still respected him. His past association with the Knightly Order, his skills and the fact he raised the Lion gave him the prestige of being a Primarchs "Father". 

Kor Pheron on the other hand was given the augment surgery to give him a longer life span etc etc and was raised to be the First Captain of the Word Bearers, something i believe not every Word Bearer was happy with, an enhanced human becoming one of the most vaunted positions within a Legion? it should have been an Astartes not a half human or in some cases a half Astartes. 

There have been the odd quote that i have read somewhere that believe the situation was tolerated because he was regarded as Lorgars Father, but other than that he was not that well liked.

I am sure there were others but Luther and Kor Pheron are the more widly known


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

All the semi-Space Marines appear to have worn power armour. Kor Phaeron did, as did Luther. Also, see above.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Phoebus said:


> The short story 'Wolf at the Door', by Mike Lee, described the Thirteenth Great Company as having been formed around warriors who had fought alongside Leman Russ for many years before the Emperor's arrival. None of them was "... younger than twenty years."
> 
> They were warned that the process of becoming Astartes would kill them, but none of them would be dissuaded. Out of the hundreds of the men who had comprised the companions of Leman Russ, "almost two score" survived.


But they were still full Astartes at the end of it, not hybrids like Kor Phearon or Luther. The younger the recruit the better the odds of survival, but it doesn't mean older recruits cannot undergo the full transformation. I think the problem with Luther and KP is that they were well beyond the age that made it any way feasible. KP was already an old man, and Luther middle aged, IIRC.


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## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

I though in First Heretic Kor was wearing Terminator armour? Slightly off topic but how?


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

High_Seraph said:


> I though in First Heretic Kor was wearing Terminator armour? Slightly off topic but how?


Much the same way the Inquisitors do or how the Sisters of Battle wear power armour. Normal humans can wear power and tactical dreadnought armour, they just don't interface with it like Space Marines can. To normal humans its 'merely' excellent armour. To a Space Marine it's a second skin with a host of secondary functions.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> But they were still full Astartes at the end of it, not hybrids like Kor Phearon or Luther. The younger the recruit the better the odds of survival, but it doesn't mean older recruits cannot undergo the full transformation. I think the problem with Luther and KP is that they were well beyond the age that made it any way feasible. KP was already an old man, and Luther middle aged, IIRC.


No disagreement there! I hope my post didn't make it seem like I was saying something else.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Rems said:


> Much the same way the Inquisitors do or how the Sisters of Battle wear power armour. Normal humans can wear power and tactical dreadnought armour, they just don't interface with it like Space Marines can. To normal humans its 'merely' excellent armour. To a Space Marine it's a second skin with a host of secondary functions.


I would think that the Black Carapace would be one of the easier modifications to make to post-convert as it's even given to marines through surgery. So I would expect that Luther and Kor Phaeron would have worn power armour (or terminator armour) that was fully and properly integrated. The reason this isn't done for Inquisitors and Sisters is likely because either the suits they wear don't have the option for the interface anyway (since they'd be a different model designed for regular humans) or because the Astartes aren't willing to share the process by which the Carapace is implanted.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Well when it comes to almost Astartes you have Kor and Inquisitor Hector Rex a Mary Sue that went toe-to-toe with a Bloodthirster even trading blows and winning. Oddly I never hear anyone complain about that, so I will mention the most vilified creature of them all Kaldor Draigo. Guess that Bloodthirster really wasn't really a match for a Primarch after all.

Kor and Luther were non-Astartes Astartes. The rest had remembrancers, though they seem to just be glorified journalists. You had Custodians assigned to each legion, so they count in a loose term.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

In The Primarchs story Feat of Iron, at the end of the story it talks about some of the IG assigned to the Iron Fists 

"Barely three hundred of the veterans returned alive with him. They would later be honoured for their part and recognized as adopted sons of Medusa. They were the first of the Chainveil, destined to be its captains, and living proof fo the concession that, from that day, not all flesh was weak."


I don't know if that qualifies under the OP, but it certainly seems like a legion officially adopting non-Astares. The 'Warhammer 40 K Wiki' indicates the Chainveil are the Iron Fists 'mortal Auxilia forces', although I'm not familiar with other chapters/legions having similar units.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> I don't know if that qualifies under the OP, but it certainly seems like a legion officially adopting non-Astares. The 'Warhammer 40 K Wiki' indicates the Chainveil are the Iron Fists 'mortal Auxilia forces', although I'm not familiar with other chapters/legions having similar units.


It brings to mind the Ayettguard in _Battle of the Fang_. Trusted humans trained by astartes to carry out tasks that there simply aren't enough marines to do. I think the Ultramarines train the IG regiments raised in Ultramar as well. A lot of the officers would have been in school with boys that went on to become smurfs. I would imagine that any human force trained by SMs would be a step or two above your average guardsman, with or without augmentation.

I vaguely remember a story in one of the anthologies from the early days of BL in which a chapter used failed initiates and human auxilaries to crew all their vehicles, including land speeders, because there simply weren't enough marines. I think they were the Scythes of the Emperor, but I could be wrong.


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

Khorne's Fist said:


> I vaguely remember a story in one of the anthologies from the early days of BL in which a chapter used failed initiates and human auxilaries to crew all their vehicles, including land speeders, because there simply weren't enough marines. I think they were the Scythes of the Emperor, but I could be wrong.


I vaguely remember a Space Wolf story telling how failed initiates get turned in to weapons servitors... might have been one of the Ragnar novels. Different chapters probably deal with thier failed initiates differently..

Back on topic, hasn't there been mention of some of the Iron Hands marines not being full space marines? I guess whenever the Primarch is rejoined with his legion, his mortal battle brothers would want to continue fighting with him by becoming a Space Marines no matter the cost (Dark Angels and Space Wolves being known examples). All excepting Angron anyway, the big E left his brothers to die, despite them arguably being the most suited to a life dedicated to battle...


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Khorne's Fist said:


> It brings to mind the Ayettguard in _Battle of the Fang_. Trusted humans trained by astartes to carry out tasks that there simply aren't enough marines to do. I think the Ultramarines train the IG regiments raised in Ultramar as well. A lot of the officers would have been in school with boys that went on to become smurfs. I would imagine that any human force trained by SMs would be a step or two above your average guardsman, with or without augmentation.
> 
> I vaguely remember a story in one of the anthologies from the early days of BL in which a chapter used failed initiates and human auxilaries to crew all their vehicles, including land speeders, because there simply weren't enough marines. I think they were the Scythes of the Emperor, but I could be wrong.





TheReverend said:


> I vaguely remember a Space Wolf story telling how failed initiates get turned in to weapons servitors... might have been one of the Ragnar novels. Different chapters probably deal with thier failed initiates differently..
> 
> Back on topic, hasn't there been mention of some of the Iron Hands marines not being full space marines? I guess whenever the Primarch is rejoined with his legion, his mortal battle brothers would want to continue fighting with him by becoming a Space Marines no matter the cost (Dark Angels and Space Wolves being known examples). All excepting Angron anyway, the big E left his brothers to die, despite them arguably being the most suited to a life dedicated to battle...


Cheers guys. I've recently picked up Battle Brother Artemis and Witch Hunter Tyrus and was thinking of maybe doing them up as a Pre Heresy Legion Astartes Brother and a Non Astrates one however the amount of work to turn the MK8 armor of Artemis to a Pre Heresy Pattern is a little bit too much especially to such an amazing mini has caused me to reconsider it. Probably going to make him Captain Cortez now. Fuck knows what I'll do with Tyrus, maybe a Rogue Trader in Power Armor.

Anyway I was under the impression that yea failed Marine recruits got servitorised, I know in the 3rd edition SW dex it says so in the Iron Preist entry. Wasn't aware of the Scythes of the Emperor one though.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> I would think that the Black Carapace would be one of the easier modifications to make to post-convert as it's even given to marines through surgery.


Technically speaking, though, ALL of the gene-seed organs are introduced through surgery. I don't know what the success rate of one organ is versus that of another, but it's all gene-seed at the end of the day. It's not as if it'd be easier to introduce the Black Carapace than the Betcher's Gland to someone who couldn't be an Astartes due to age.



> So I would expect that Luther and Kor Phaeron would have worn power armour (or terminator armour) that was fully and properly integrated.


I'm not sure it would be to the same degree, though. One of the things mentioned in 'Descent of Angels' was that the knights of the Order who had been too old to take the gene-seed had been made superhuman... but could never be on par with Space Marines.

The lack of the Black Carapace would be exactly one of the things that would set them apart, I think. I don't believe it's a coincidence, for example, that 'Luther' wore what was described in 'Fallen Angels' as "closer-fitting", less-bulky armour.



> The reason this isn't done for Inquisitors and Sisters is likely because either the suits they wear don't have the option for the interface anyway (since they'd be a different model designed for regular humans) or because the Astartes aren't willing to share the process by which the Carapace is implanted.


Agreed on both counts. I can't see how the Adeptus Astartes would suffer gene-seed to be used for individuals other than Space Marines. There is no mention of another process by which an organ like the Black Carapace can be made. Point of fact, I imagine any attempt to duplicate the Emperor's works to such a degree would be seen as blasphemous.

*SIDEBAR:*
What I find interesting, though, is that the Adeptus Mechanicus haven't figured out a mechanical equivalent. Practically every Techpriest Engineseer wears power armour, but - in game terms at least - it affords them no advantage other than superior protection. With access to bionics (to make them stronger), and proven cybernetic interfaces (see servo-arms), I'm amazed that the Mechanicus hasn't crossed that bridge.

My _guess_ is that it's not worth their effort either on a micro- or a macro-scale. When it comes to leaders and elites, I imagine extensive bionic augmentation provides the same benefits as Astartes power armour (great protection, enhanced strength, etc.). When it comes to their soldiers, the Adepts simply don't care about them enough to make the investment. Skitarii and Praetorians are more than capable versus most threats out there, and the true arm of combat among the Mechanicus has always been the Titan.

Still, I'm curious as to why individual Engineseers wouldn't experiment with cybernetic interfaces for their power armour as an interim solution (since they obviously don't yet possess enough bionics to not need said power armour). You would think it's the sort of initiative they would be rewarded for. Unless augmentation is already a controlled process to begin with, and is used as a reward for a job well done.

Ah, well. I'm rambling.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Phoebus said:


> The lack of the Black Carapace would be exactly one of the things that would set them apart, I think. I don't believe it's a coincidence, for example, that 'Luther' wore what was described in 'Fallen Angels' as "closer-fitting", less-bulky armour.


Sounds a bit like a Pre Heresy form of Imperial Power Armor



Phoebus said:


> Unless augmentation is already a controlled process to begin with, and is used as a reward for a job well done.


As far as I'm aware augmentation beyond the basics required to get the job done is a reward both for good work and political clout even within AM. It's not just handed out willy nilly.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Technically speaking, though, ALL of the gene-seed organs are introduced through surgery.


Oh, my mistake, I thought some of the organs developed naturally as a result of the gene-seed.



> The lack of the Black Carapace would be exactly one of the things that would set them apart, I think.


Though it could be anything really. It's obvious that the post-converts don't get the same extent of modification so any and all of the missing augmentations would be enough to make them sub-par.



> I don't believe it's a coincidence, for example, that 'Luther' wore what was described in 'Fallen Angels' as "closer-fitting", less-bulky armour.


But Kor Phaeron, who would've had the same modifications as Luther, wore Terminator Armour that IIRC wasn't described as being different in anyway. It's certainly possible that Luther's armour is mandated by his lack of the black carapace but its also possible that it was a style (or something else) choice.



> What I find interesting, though, is that the Adeptus Mechanicus haven't figured out a mechanical equivalent. Practically every Techpriest Engineseer wears power armour, but - in game terms at least - it affords them no advantage other than superior protection.


My understanding of the Black Carapace is that its primary benefit is that it allows for faster reactions and smoother control. Neither of these things is hugely important outside of combat situations and neither are things that the Mechanicus seems to value very much. So I'm not hugely surprised that Tech-priests don't seem to have something similar. 

Also, what - in game terms - are the additional advantages of power armour? Space Marine Scouts don't wear power armour but are statistically almost identical (and my understanding was that the gap was due to inexperience) to their power armoured brethren. Obviously we know from the fluff that the Black Carapace allows for smoother control and faster reactions but I've also never seen any Mechanicus personnel suffer from those problems. 

And of course there's the fact that the Tech-priests don't actually wear Power Armour, just a suit of armour providing equivalent protection, so whose to say how well they can interface with it.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

In the Iron Hands novel, Gdolkin encounters a failed initiate to the Iron Hands right after he came out of his surgery trance. The ex-initiate having circuit patterns on his hand to mark him as part of the chapter, a pale mimickry of the sacrifice all true Iron Hands were to do on their initiation, replacing a hand with a bionic. And stating the failed ones were put to work as serfs to the chapter.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Oh, my mistake, I thought some of the organs developed naturally as a result of the gene-seed.


No worries. It took a lot of perusing of "Index Astartes I" to figure it all out. Every single one of the organs developed from gene-seed is surgically implanted, preferably during the an optimal period in the subject's adolescence. As the subject grows, the organs affect his body's changes. Thus, during the same period that a teenager's skeleton and muscles would naturally develop, a neophyte's biscopea and ossmodula grant him superhuman musculature and bones.

The reasons as to why a neophyte's age was so important have changed, though. When 'Space Marine' (by Ian Watson) came out, the reason was specifically tied to utilizing that nature period of growth. Thus, if an eighteen-year old was granted gene-seed, he'd only have 3-4 years for the organs to enhance him. Hence Watson's comment that such a Space Marine would still be a puissant man, but a midget among the Astartes (or some such). By contrast, more modern lore (such as 'Wolf at the Gates', from the Tales of Heresy series) focuses on how deadly that process would be for an adult - and no mention is made of the Thirteenth Great Company of being smallish Space Marines.



> Though it could be anything really. It's obvious that the post-converts don't get the same extent of modification so any and all of the missing augmentations would be enough to make them sub-par.


That's the thing: I think it's _everything._ Luther doesn't just lack *some* of the organs... he lacks _all_ of them. If Kor Phaeron is anything to go by, or the vague details offered from 'Descent of Angels', then such "demi-Space Marines" are augmented by completely different means: gene therapy, bionics, etc.



> But Kor Phaeron, who would've had the same modifications as Luther, wore Terminator Armour that IIRC wasn't described as being different in anyway. It's certainly possible that Luther's armour is mandated by his lack of the black carapace but its also possible that it was a style (or something else) choice.


There are normal humans who have used Terminator armour in the background - including at least one Inquisitor. The question comes down to whether they are as effective with it as a member of the Adeptus Astartes. I would say they're not. It's worth remembering, though, that - by 'Know No Fear' at the latest - Kor Phaeron possesses considerable Warp powers that probably more than make up for his lack of a 'Black Carapace'. 



> Also, what - in game terms - are the additional advantages of power armour? Space Marine Scouts don't wear power armour but are statistically almost identical (and my understanding was that the gap was due to inexperience) to their power armoured brethren. Obviously we know from the fluff that the Black Carapace allows for smoother control and faster reactions but I've also never seen any Mechanicus personnel suffer from those problems.


The game mechanics are, in my humble opinion, awful at portraying what power armour does. Space Marines gain no improvement to their "physical stats" (strength, toughness, initiative), and only about 16% better protection. We know, though, that power armour is supposed to offer outstanding protection against most conventional weapons, and greatly enhance a Space Marine's physical prowess.

So who knows? Given the poor statistical representation for Space Marines, perhaps Techpriest Engineseers _do_ get great benefits from their cybernetic interface with the power armour they wear. It's just that their baseline is a lower one than that of a Space Marine.



> And of course there's the fact that the Tech-priests don't actually wear Power Armour, just a suit of armour providing equivalent protection, so whose to say how well they can interface with it.


See Codex: Imperial Guard. Techpriest Engineseers get power armour by default. :wink:

Cheers,
P.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> That's the thing: I think it's _everything._ Luther doesn't just lack *some* of the organs... he lacks _all_ of them. If Kor Phaeron is anything to go by, or the vague details offered from 'Descent of Angels', then such "demi-Space Marines" are augmented by completely different means: gene therapy, bionics, etc.


Fair enough, I doubt we'll ever know for sure. Personally I would think they'd give them as many of the Space Marine organs as they possibly could, ie. the ones that don't need development time and/or otherwise aren't risky to the lives of the post-converts. To me, the Black Carapace would be one such augmentation but obviously I have no proof that they do add it.



> There are normal humans who have used Terminator armour in the background - including at least one Inquisitor. The question comes down to whether they are as effective with it as a member of the Adeptus Astartes. I would say they're not.


They definitely aren't, and that was my point. Kor Phaeron doesn't seem to suffer the limitations that a normal human wearing Terminator Armour would, which suggests to me that he has the Black Carapace. Good point about his warp powers, hadn't really considered the effect that might have on his ability to use armour.

In any case it kinda makes your point about Luther wearing special armour so as to avoid the drawbacks of wearing regular power armour moot, since if that was such a large concern for post-converted Astartes Kor Phaeron would wear the same or similar.



> The game mechanics are, in my humble opinion, awful at portraying what power armour does.


Agreed, and completely my point. :grin:

Since Power Armour offers no additional advantages in game terms, we simply can't say whether or not anyone wearing it suffers from problems interfacing with it from game terms alone. Thus we must look to fluff, and as I pointed out in my original post I haven't seen any fluff indicating that they do suffer from problems with it.



> See Codex: Imperial Guard. Techpriest Engineseers get power armour by default. :wink:


Oh I know what the codex says. I meant that the power armour they wear isn't specified as being the same as the Power Armour worn by Space Marines and since it looks very different I personally don't think it's the same. It provides equivalent protection so the game uses the same terms to simplify things, the same way that everything from ballistic vests to manliness are called flak armour because they provide the same protection in game terms.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Fair enough, I doubt we'll ever know for sure.


For Kor Phaeron, we do. That was the process they mentioned for him.



> Personally I would think they'd give them as many of the Space Marine organs as they possibly could, ie. the ones that don't need development time and/or otherwise aren't risky to the lives of the post-converts. To me, the Black Carapace would be one such augmentation but obviously I have no proof that they do add it.


That's the thing, it's not that simple. Even if we ignore the age limitations of the Carapace, or the danger inherent to the surgery*, if you just give someone a Black Carapace, you just wasted the rest of the gene-seed set. While the Legions were larger back then, there's no indication that gene-seed wasn't as valued.

* They practically flay the majority of the candidate's torso and insert implants that send invasive neural bundles deep in his body.



> ... Kor Phaeron doesn't seem to suffer the limitations that a normal human wearing Terminator Armour would, ...


This is neither here nor there, but aside from Kor Phaeron's short battle against Guilliman, I can't recall any instances of him going to war. I'm sure there are, but do you recall any off the top of your head?



> Thus we must look to fluff, and as I pointed out in my original post I haven't seen any fluff indicating that they do suffer from problems with it.


Ultimately, I think the only concrete statement is the one about the not-quite-Space Marines aren't considered as good as Space Marines.

Cheers,
P.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Regarding Kor Phaeron, do remember he is positively juiced up by the dark gods. In that short in Mark of Calth with a young Marduk observing KP getting gutted by Guiliman, he is positively leaking chaotic energy everywhere.

With how tainted he is, he is -FAR- from the normal human granted a spot in the legions.


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