# 'The Unremembered Empire' up for pre-order!



## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

So the hardbacks are available to be ordered from BL's web-site and I finally saw the sub-title which is "A light in the darkness". I like that actually. Whose ordering it and who is waiting for later samples? 

http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/the-unremembered-empire-hardback-edition.html


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Holy shit. Go, go, go, go, go, go! Wow I cannot wait for this.

But yes. I'm pre-ordering it as always. Won't be until Monday however, if anyone pre-orders the eBook in the meantime, what date does it give for download availability?


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## Chaplain-Grimaldus (Aug 4, 2013)

Was this another limited release book like Promethean sun?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Chaplain-Grimaldus said:


> Was this another limited release book like Promethean sun?


No this is a full length novel, one that by all accounts looks to be excellent.


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## The Scion of Chemos (May 24, 2013)

forkmaster said:


> So the hardbacks are available to be ordered from BL's web-site and I finally saw the sub-title which is "A light in the darkness". I like that actually. Whose ordering it and who is waiting for later samples?
> 
> http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/the-unremembered-empire-hardback-edition.html


I'm pre-ordering it. May get the wallpapers too, though I hate to pay $2.49 for some images that will be on /tg/ in a few days.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

My working theory for this is still the Lion giving Sanguinius his xenos device, to allow him and his Legion to escape the storms isolating Ultramar and return to Terra.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

sounds reasonable, would be altruistic for the Lion, but very plausible


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## theurge33 (Apr 4, 2012)

Ordered...ship baby ship...


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

Am I the only one who looks at the gold-clad guy and imagines him thinking "Let go of my arm you moron and stop shouting."

He's got that look :S


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I dunno if I should just get the ebook, it's a lot cheaper and I've been using my Kindle a lot more recently what with _Scars_


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Awesome. Pre-ordering this immediately. *Ave Imperator Sanguinius!!*


LotN


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Pre-ordered the ebook, says I won't get it till the 4th though.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Just ordered mine, the physical hardback version and for some reason the order is saying i've ordered the ebook version. Emailed BL to sort this out, I definitely DO NOT want the ebook version.


LotN


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## Khyzer (Dec 22, 2012)

Lord of the Night said:


> Just ordered mine, the physical hardback version and for some reason the order is saying i've ordered the ebook version. Emailed BL to sort this out, I definitely DO NOT want the ebook version.
> 
> 
> LotN


That is possibly the scariest scenario I can imagine lol, I will be pre-ordering for fucking sure as soon as I get paid here in a few days.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Khyzer said:


> That is possibly the scariest scenario I can imagine lol, I will be pre-ordering for fucking sure as soon as I get paid here in a few days.


Got a prompt reply from BL, twas just a glitch and is now fixed. I am getting the Hardback version. :biggrin:


LotN


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## Chaplain-Grimaldus (Aug 4, 2013)

Will be getting this and Vulkan lives on ebook come payday.


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## Shadow Walker (Jun 10, 2010)

Ordered mine. I had same issue as you LotN but BL response was quick and it will be hardback


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I've just ordered the Tallarn novella to.


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## Sev (Sep 15, 2013)

Awesome, I just wanted to order Tallarn: Executioner and saw this was up for preorder as well. Can't wait to read this!

edit: Damn, when did BL change their shipping policies? A few months ago I could buy a HH hardback without shipping cost, but now you don't get free delivery under 30€...


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I've just ordered the Tallarn novella to.


As have I. *10 MILLION TANKS!!* :grin:


LotN


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## The Scion of Chemos (May 24, 2013)

Anyone else get the Tallarn poster?
I personally LOVE the artwork(probably my favourite that BL has ever done), so I grabbed that along with my copies of Tallarn and Unremembered Empire.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> *10 MILLION TANKS!!*


Ridiculous isn't it?


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

Lord of the Night said:


> As have I. *10 MILLION TANKS!!* :grin:
> 
> 
> LotN


I really don't understand the excitement about the 10 million tanks thing. To me it’s just daft. That’s roughly eight million more tanks than there were space marines at any one point during the great crusade which conquered a galaxy. 10 million tanks on one planet? If a story came out with 10 Billion tanks would a load of people go YEAH, AMAZING, CAN'T WAIT!! It totally lessens my interest to be honest. 

PS During the whole of the Second World War there were roughly 300,000 tanks built. I know 40k is not supposed to be realistic but it should be sensible within its own environment.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

I guess Unremembered Empire will resolve the issue of Guilliman's treachery. I'm apprehensive, but I'm not setting my bar too high after the previous Horus Heresy books involving the Ultramarines, none of which I was impressed by.

I'd get Tallarn: Executioner, but I can't really justify the costs. Plus there's the fact it will probably be re-released later on in an omnibus.


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## The Scion of Chemos (May 24, 2013)

mal310 said:


> I really don't understand the excitement about the 10 million tanks thing. To me it’s just daft. That’s roughly eight million more tanks than there were space marines at any one point during the great crusade which conquered a galaxy. 10 million tanks on one planet? If a story came out with 10 Billion tanks would a load of people go YEAH, AMAZING, CAN'T WAIT!! It totally lessens my interest to be honest.
> 
> PS During the whole of the Second World War there were roughly 300,000 tanks built. I know 40k is not supposed to be realistic but it should be sensible within its own environment.


I personally really like this idea because it reminds me that the setting itself isn't supposed to be serious. I mean, it's supposed to be "serious" in the sense of Serious Sam. Everything is so over the top that the setting can't take itself seriously.
And besides that, it just the ridiculousness of the story that makes me interested. I mean, logistically, just the transportation cost of moving 10M tanks would be so ungodly impossible, let alone actually manning, training the THAT many tanks crew, and deploying that many tanks.
The "unrealisticness" of the 10M tanks ordeal isn't what really sold me on the novella, but I also don't really think it takes away from the Battle of Tallarn. 40K was originally VERY humorous.
Though that's, of course, my opinion. Different strokes and all taht jazz.



Gree said:


> I guess Unremembered Empire will resolve the issue of Guilliman's treachery. I'm apprehensive, but I'm not setting my bar too high after the previous Horus Heresy books involving the Ultramarines, none of which I was impressed by.
> 
> I'd get Tallarn: Executioner, but I can't really justify the costs. Plus there's the fact it will probably be re-released later on in an omnibus.


I felt the same way about LE novellas until I actually owned one. And yes, while it will be reprinted in about a year or two, I think it may be a bit longer until we actually get a Tallarn omnibus since they are doing 3 or 4 LE novellas in the "Tallarn:___" series.
Or it might be re-released into just the novella like PS(which came out to cost about 1/2 as much as the LE).


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The Scion of Chemos said:


> I personally really like this idea because it reminds me that the setting itself isn't supposed to be serious.


But it is.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Just preordered the ebook.:so_happy:



Gree said:


> I guess Unremembered Empire will resolve the issue of Guilliman's treachery.


Treachery? Who did he betray?


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## theurge33 (Apr 4, 2012)

Just received copy of Scotched earth...got this week to finish Ahriman Exile and that. Ordered Tallarn as well. The first time I have had this much anticipation for a heresy novel since Fear to Tread.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Treachery? Who did he betray?


The Emperor. Read ''Rules of Engagement'' from the Age of Darkness Anthology. He may have not worshiped Chaos, or joined Horus, but Guilliman was more loyal to the idea of the Imperium than he was to the Emperor.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Gree said:


> The Emperor. Read ''Rules of Engagement'' from the Age of Darkness Anthology. He may have not worshiped Chaos, or joined Horus, but Guilliman was more loyal to the idea of the Imperium than he was to the Emperor.


You seem to forget that he has no clue what is happening beyond the ruin storm. He doesn't know how much, if anything of the Imperium is left. He doesn't know whether or not the ruin storm has permanently divided the Imperium or if there is anything at all beyond it. As far as he knows, Terra may have been blasted from existence, and the Emperor with it. He is doing what he does best, trying to unite what is left of humanity into some semblance of order so that they might put up a fight when Horus eventually comes for them. Also, considering he already had an empire before Daddy showed up, he is just reverting to type. If anything his loyalty is to humanity as a whole. I don't think that can be considered a betrayal of his father.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> You seem to forget that he has no clue what is happening beyond the ruin storm. He doesn't know how much, if anything of the Imperium is left. He doesn't know whether or not the ruin storm has permanently divided the Imperium or if there is anything at all beyond it. As far as he knows, Terra may have been blasted from existence, and the Emperor with it. He is doing what he does best, trying to unite what is left of humanity into some semblance of order so that they might put up a fight when Horus eventually comes for them. Also, considering he already had an empire before Daddy showed up, he is just reverting to type. If anything his loyalty is to humanity as a whole. I don't think that can be considered a betrayal of his father.


Then Guilliman has no reason of course to refer to his works as ''Words of Treachery'' or the Ultramarines to regard themselves as ''feeling like traitors'' or even the actual description of the blurb as Guilliman making a ''power play''.

There is at least something beyond simply ignorance, or else there would be none of the controversy inserted into the works by the authors. I say this as somebody who wanted to like Guilliman, but I've frankly been disappointing and disgusted by his actions far too much in the Heresy series to like him or justify his actions anymore.

This book will simply be the deciding factor or whether I forever condemn Guilliman as a underhanded traitor or simply regard him as a misguided fool. As it stands now, without any further information provided, I can only regard Guilliman's actions as treachery, even if it's well-intentioned treachery in the same vein as Magnus.

EDIT: The above is of course, simply my own personal opinion and take on matters.


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## The Scion of Chemos (May 24, 2013)

Malus Darkblade said:


> But it is.


I guess to you.
The way I see it is that the entire setting is so ridiculously far over the top in as many ways as possible, it is.... ridiculous. I mean, some things in the setting are more serious, and grim, and dark, and all that jazz. But since the entire setting was based a parody of WHFB, and then the basis of 40K(the HH) was based on the bible? I don't think it is ALL serious. 
But I mean, prime example for me is to look at the orks. They are a big pack of giant green monsters that fight anything and everything. They are as inefficient as possible. What they believe becomes true.
Then the whole cathedral tanks, superhumans on motorcycles, etc.
I just don't think the ENTIRE setting is meant to be taken AS SERIOUSLY as possible ALL THE TIME.
I mean, the Ciaphas Cain series is rather silly, and some of my favourite bits from different BL books are so "grimdark" or "dark and edgy" that I really can't take it seriously.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Is 10 million tanks really that absurd by 40K standards? I'm guessing the 10 million tanks are involved in the conquest of an entire world. 

We're talking a galaxy-spanning empire of a million worlds (population potentially in the quadrillions). Is it really that unimaginable for the Imperium to have the logistical clout to insert 10 million tanks into a planetary theatre of war?


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## Bobbyfbrewster (Oct 14, 2011)

I read somewhere few years back that the US has 29,900 armored vehicles so I think in a galaxy wide empire 10 million tanks not that far fectched


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Right, let's keep on topic. There is a whole thread about the Tallarn novella, move this conversation there if you want to keep at it.


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## Thyr (Oct 25, 2010)

Gree said:


> Then Guilliman has no reason of course to refer to his works as ''Words of Treachery'' or the Ultramarines to regard themselves as ''feeling like traitors'' or even the actual description of the blurb as Guilliman making a ''power play''.
> 
> There is at least something beyond simply ignorance, or else there would be none of the controversy inserted into the works by the authors. I say this as somebody who wanted to like Guilliman, but I've frankly been disappointing and disgusted by his actions far too much in the Heresy series to like him or justify his actions anymore.
> 
> ...


The reason the Ultramarines in Rules of Engagement feel like traitors is because they are going through different scenarios on how to fight and defeat other Legions. They train for something that was thought to be unthinkable. Brother fighting brother. And if I remember correctly Rules of Engagement takes place after Know No Fear.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Thyr said:


> The reason the Ultramarines in Rules of Engagement feel like traitors is because they are going through different scenarios on how to fight and defeat other Legions. They train for something that was thought to be unthinkable. Brother fighting brother. And if I remember correctly Rules of Engagement takes place after Know No Fear.


We had Guilliman and other talking about how they felt like traitors in relation to not fighting the traitor forces. We had Guilliman apparently holding his forces back from joining the Heresy and sitting on the sidelines. Of course with hindsight we knew about the Ruinstorm later, but taken in context of then it seems like treason.

Of course now my revised opinion still regards Guilliman as a traitor, if one who is merely well-meaning and misguided in the same way as Magnus. That is of course my own personal opinion and interpretation of things, that may or may not change with the upcoming release of this novel.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> Is 10 million tanks really that absurd by 40K standards? I'm guessing the 10 million tanks are involved in the conquest of an entire world.
> 
> We're talking a galaxy-spanning empire of a million worlds (population potentially in the quadrillions). Is it really that unimaginable for the Imperium to have the logistical clout to insert 10 million tanks into a planetary theatre of war?


If we're talking in galactic terms, then no. Even (to some extent) on planetary terms it can be acceptable. But if the IV Legion was deployed in it's entirety (maximum 100k?) on Tallarn, that means that 20 tanks were deployed per every single Space Marine. It just seems a bit absurd. I'm not ruling it out as completely unrealistic, but it seems to require a willing suspension of disbelief. We know that Tallarn was one of "many staging grounds" for the Great Crusade and a "transfer point for vast numbers of military personnel and their war machines", but why did the Iron Warrior commit such resources - and would Horus have had to commission such a deployment? Stubbornness? Or was it something to do with the Cursus of Alganar? Before French confirmed it, it could easily have been passed off as a rumour or myth, but hey ho. 

One thing I am optimistic about though is French's portrayal of Perturabo following on from the shocker that was _Angel Exterminatus_. We've seen him suffer a humiliation at Phall and an embarrassment at the hands of Fulgrim, hopefully French can suitably manage his descent into bitterness, madness and hatred. Based on _Crimson Fist_ I can see this being the case.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

This may have been mentioned already, but I believe the title has been changed from _Unremembered Empire_ to _The Unremembered Empire_, and the subtitle has been changed from _Imperium Secundus_ to _A Light in the Darkness_.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm really quite looking forward to the Lions arrival and when he meets Guilliman, and by extension Sanguinius. From what Corswain said, it doesn't sound like the Lion is happy with Guillimans plans at all for an Imperium Secundus. Really looking forward to Abnetts portrayal of the Lion and Sanguinius again, for the short while he was in Horus Rising, I liked him a lot, but then _Fear to Tread_ happened, and my opinions on that novel are known by most.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Somebody just posted up a summary for the entire novel's spoilers on 4chan. Everything including the ending. It's very fascinating if anyone wants to be spoiled early.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I don't want any. If anyone does or wants to post them, make sure they are in spoiler tags.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Gree said:


> Somebody just posted up a summary for the entire novel's spoilers on 4chan. Everything including the ending. It's very fascinating if anyone wants to be spoiled early.


Great, now I've got to suffer a monumental challenge of my willpower.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yup, I can do this! Done it for all the others as well....but wow do I want to know at the same time.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Ouf, definitely dont want this one spoiled yet. It has the potential of being one of the most influential HH books!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> Ouf, definitely dont want this one spoiled yet. It has the potential of being one of the most influential HH books!


And certainly the one that will (potentially) drive the plot forward, it seems that so many different Heresy sub-plots will interlink/come to fruition with _The Unremembered Empire_. High hopes... don't let me down Abnett.

(Just a shame that it will be realised before we will get the chance to finish _Scars_... I don't like switching between different books!)


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed. We have, what? Sanguinius after the events of Signus. The Lion after the Thramas Crusade, evidently not happy with Guilliman and with Sevetar imprisoned on his ship, and Curze potentially still running free inside. Vulkan sounds to be in the area after a hot descent, with Grammaticus soon to follow. Polux after the ambush at Phall. And what looks like some Space Wolves as well, and you can guarantee they are going to be pissed.


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## theurge33 (Apr 4, 2012)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And certainly the one that will (potentially) drive the plot forward, it seems that so many different Heresy sub-plots will interlink/come to fruition with _The Unremembered Empire_. High hopes... don't let me down Abnett.
> 
> (Just a shame that it will be realised before we will get the chance to finish _Scars_... I don't like switching between different books!)


 
How is Scars going btw..in a brief , unspoilerd sentence or two? What I% of book would you say is completed?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Chapter 9 or 12 is coming out for Scars tomorrow. I've been reading a friends copy due to my refusal to buy it all till it's released as a whole, the novel is excellent though, I can't stress enough what an amazing job I think Wraight has done with the V Legion and the Khan, how he's given them such a massively unique flavour, personality, mindsets, beliefs and ideologies. Though I am wondering how it's all going to be tied up in just another 4 chapters, there seems to be so much left to cover plot wise. I'd also be very interested to see what the final word count is when in full novel format, as it seems to be a bit on the short side.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Chapter 9 or 12 is coming out for Scars tomorrow. I've been reading a friends copy due to my refusal to buy it all till it's released as a whole, the novel is excellent though, I can't stress enough what an amazing job I think Wraight has done with the V Legion and the Khan, how he's given them such a massively unique flavour, personality, mindsets, beliefs and ideologies. Though I am wondering how it's all going to be tied up in just another 4 chapters, there seems to be so much left to cover plot wise. I'd also be very interested to see what the final word count is when in full novel format, as it seems to be a bit on the short side.




I really dislike Wraights 'Engrish' thing he's got going for the Scars, the librarian in particular. It really detracts from the whole eidetic memory/psycho-indoctrination thing Astartes are known for I feel and just feeds into the whole China-man stereotype thing which is something you'd never expect in Warhammer40k literature.

Also, the part about the Terran aspirant who wasn't cut out to be a Luna Wolf ergo fueling the implication that the various Legions were inferior to one another based on the standards they required, and so never became fond of his becoming a White Scar. While this was a very interesting perspective and humanizing aspect to see in a Space Marine, again, it makes it seem like the Astartes psycho-indoctrination program has its issues/is non-existent.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

And my copy had been dispatched!


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> And my copy had been dispatched!


As has mine. Reading this book is such a high priority that I will do what I normally do not, if TUE arrives while i'm reading another book I will set it down and immediately get into TUE. I'll also be reviewing it for Talk Wargaming, and _Vulkan Lives_.


LotN


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

I have been reading some minor spoilers and if what they say is true, this would not make any sense at all, darn,


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Lord of the Night said:


> Reading this book is such a high priority that I will do what I normally do not, if TUE arrives while i'm reading another book I will set it down and immediately get into TUE


I'm in a similar boat. I can download it from tomorrow, and have a couple hundred pages left in the book I'm reading. Trying to get it finished so I can dive straight into it.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Got excited for a second, than saw Abnett wrote it. I will pass. I look at him as the Jerry Sienfeld writer of Black Library writers. So many liked "Seinfeld" but the show was dumb as hell with zero creativity. I think both Abnett and Seinfeld sold their souls to the devil saying "Devil, I know I have no talent, but if you make people think I have talent I will sell my soul to you". Why I ended up immune to both of them I have no clue.

I will be content finding out the spoilers off this website to keep curent with the Heresy, but I wouldn't read another Abentt book if the Emperor himself commanded it.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

@Zooey: Let me guess, you think Thorpe, Swallow, Counter and Kyme are stellar writers.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> @Zooey: Let me guess, you think Thorpe, Swallow, Counter and Kyme are stellar writers.


They are ok, but the best ones are now ski an McNeil. The only one I do not like is Abnett. He wrote one good book, "Horus Rising". The rest have been written badly and his ideas have driven the HH in stupid directions. I hope they keep the damage he does to a min. When they do the drive of terra. However we already have the stink of one of his brain farts with the char Gammaticus.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

You're right, Abnett's novels do fall off the elliptical plane of what we _expect_ a Horus Heresy novel to deliver, but nevertheless each one packs the iconic style, mood and themes of a Heresy novel better than even those wielding huge swathes of named astartes characters, primarchs and even the Emperor himself.


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

Zooey72 said:


> Why I ended up immune to both of them I have no clue.


Clearly because you have a poor taste in writing. IMO Abnett is one of Black Library's top three writers. His characterisation is second to none. An all round superb author.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Just finished the Unremembered Empire. I found it a superb read and it ties up so many lesser story archs and plots that its unbeliveable, and yet setting the stage for more to come. In a way the slate have been washed clean and prepared for a new major story arch to come.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

A few hours into the audio version.. Needless to say, its fantastic. Loving every second of it.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

mal310 said:


> Clearly because you have a poor taste in writing. IMO Abnett is one of Black Library's top three writers. His characterisation is second to none. An all round superb author.


Ok, if you think good writing is taking up 5 pages to describe a doughnut... but in the end that is one greatly described doughnut - than Abnett is your man. He writes like a child who is trying to get to the end of a 1000 word essay. He thinks more is better when it comes to writing, and it isn't.

"Horus is really really really really really really really, evil!"

That is classic Abnett for you.

It wouldn't be so bad if he had good ideas with content, but his ideas are (mostly) moronic. The best he has done since "Horus Rising" is "Know no Fear", and that is to say he made it readable. I still had to skip the countless pages of "look at this big boom", because he was racing towards the end goal of "X" pages. I missed nothing by doing that btw, any more than going to get pop corn during a car chase in a movie. While it might be fun to watch (if you are in the mood) I have yet to see one car chase be pivotal in any storyline. It is just filler, and that is 90% of Abnett's writing.

I'm just waiting for the spoiler page on this website to see what damage he has done. My bet is that Sang and Papa smurf are women and they secretly started the Sister's of Battle. That makes more sense to me than how he made Alpha Legion the retarded kids of the Astartes.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

And yet you say you like Mcneill? Who uses an abundance of metaphors, unnecessarily complex and out of use words to hide the utter shite that is the plot, or lack of it to be more precise. The man who made a monumental chronological fuck up, and then tried, very poorly to cover his tracks in an audio novel. I can't even begin to list the shite he has produced. A Thousand Sons is his one fluke, his only redeeming work.


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## March of Time (Dec 4, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> And yet you say you like Mcneill? Who uses an abundance of metaphors, unnecessarily complex and out of use words to hide the utter shite that is the plot, or lack of it to be more precise. The man who made a monumental chronological fuck up, and then tried, very poorly to cover his tracks in an audio novel. I can't even begin to list the shite he has produced. A Thousand Sons is his one fluke, his only redeeming work.


Just because you don't like Mcneill's work doesn't mean other people can't like it!


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

Zooey72 said:


> Ok, if you think good writing is taking up 5 pages to describe a doughnut... but in the end that is one greatly described doughnut - than Abnett is your man. He writes like a child who is trying to get to the end of a 1000 word essay. He thinks more is better when it comes to writing, and it isn't.
> 
> "Horus is really really really really really really really, evil!"
> 
> ...


Zooey I respect the fact that each of us have different views on the books we read. There are some, in the HH series that I really dislike. When I say I dislike or even hate a book I try and write why and evidence my point of view. 

It’s obvious that you really dislike or even hate the novel Legion. For me it’s the best in the HH series, I loved it and everything Dan did with it. I acknowledge that it can be a polarising book but I think even you would have to agree that far more people think it’s a great book than those who dislike it. Your attitude seems to be that you hate it, ergo it’s a dreadful book, fact. 

I’m currently in the process of reading everything Dan has written in both the 40k and Warhammer Fantasy settings. The only book I’ve read from Dan so far that I didn’t really enjoy was Prospero Burns. I thought it was a touch boring and I wanted to read about the conversations between Russ and the Emperor and Russ and Horus. There were still some great parts tho. 

For me he creates realistic interesting characters, fascinating environments and entertaining scenarios that are truly engrossing. He then injects great plots and creates brilliant novels. 
The arguments you put forward above are to be frank, risible.



Zooey72 said:


> Ok, if you think good writing is taking up 5 pages to describe a doughnut... but in the end that is one greatly described doughnut - than Abnett is your man.


I think you are trying to say he writes too much detail. I wholehearted disagree. 



Zooey72 said:


> He writes like a child who is trying to get to the end of a 1000 word essay.


Can you quantify how he writes like a child writing a 1000 word essay? I'd like to see the comparison



Zooey72 said:


> He thinks more is better when it comes to writing, and it isn't.


If I have any criticism of some of his work, I think some of his Gaunt’s Ghosts books actually finish too abruptly and could have been fleshed out a bit more at the end.



Zooey72 said:


> “Horus is really really really really really really really, evil!".
> 
> That is classic Abnett for you.


Unless I’m mistaken Abnett has only written about Hours (apart from brief mentions in short stories) in Hours Rising. The novel that was almost universally praised for its portrayal of Horus as a kind and likeable character......



Angel of Blood said:


> And yet you say you like Mcneill? Who uses an abundance of metaphors, unnecessarily complex and out of use words to hide the utter shite that is the plot, or lack of it to be more precise. The man who made a monumental chronological fuck up, and then tried, very poorly to cover his tracks in an audio novel. I can't even begin to list the shite he has produced. A Thousand Sons is his one fluke, his only redeeming work.


That did make me laugh out loud and you make some very good points about the worst of McNeill's writing. For me he's a bit of an enigma. Fulgrim, Mechanicum and Thousand Sons I all really enjoyed. All of the rest of his HH stuff has lurched from poor to horrendous! IMO!


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## Valrak (Jul 23, 2011)

And here we go...


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> And yet you say you like Mcneill? Who uses an abundance of metaphors, unnecessarily complex and out of use words to hide the utter shite that is the plot, or lack of it to be more precise. The man who made a monumental chronological fuck up, and then tried, very poorly to cover his tracks in an audio novel. I can't even begin to list the shite he has produced. A Thousand Sons is his one fluke, his only redeeming work.


I will be the first to say that I can't stand writing that sounds like "Dawson's Creek" or "The Gilmore Girls". It is not that they use big words, it is that no one talks like that. I agree with the sentiment, but I don't see it in Mcneil's work.

Which of his books didn't you like?

False Gods rocked with how Horus fell. I esp. like how at the moment of truth Horus walked into corruption of his own free will and was not manipulated by Erebus or anyone else.

Fulgrim just rocked. His was a slow but deliberate fall from grace. He combined his pride and arrogance. What I esp liked about it is that his fall was independent of any outside influence.

Mechanicium was kinda meh. I'll give you that.

Outcast Dead. Again kinda Meh. Give you that one too.

Angel Exterminatus was great in my opinion. My Only issue with it is that they made Fulgrim a bit too Liberachi and not enough Pinhead.




The Chronilogical stuff I think is more of a group brain fart. From the Youtube videos I have seen before they write anything they all get into the geekcave to discuss where the HH is going and how they are going to get there. I am sure content is discussed as well and each writer can't just do anything he wants. But getting the facts straight is something that I think they all missed.

I remember a thread about this, but can't remember what the exact screw up was. I think it had something to do with "Outcast Dead" and Magnus blowing up the Imperial Gateway. While I am a geek I try not to nit pick too much at stuff like that. Reminds me of trekkies counting how many truffles were in each scene and than getting upset over it :biggrin:


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

mal310 said:


> Zooey I respect the fact that each of us have different views on the books we read. There are some, in the HH series that I really dislike. When I say I dislike or even hate a book I try and write why and evidence my point of view.
> 
> It’s obvious that you really dislike or even hate the novel Legion. For me it’s the best in the HH series, I loved it and everything Dan did with it. I acknowledge that it can be a polarising book but I think even you would have to agree that far more people think it’s a great book than those who dislike it. Your attitude seems to be that you hate it, ergo it’s a dreadful book, fact.
> 
> ...


Well, we are not going to agree on "Legion". I have posted a bunch on these forums how I loathe that Novel. If it were possible I would pay the additional cost of the book again if that took the original money I gave to Black Library from buying that tripe. I will give a quick run down of why I hated it, but I am sure it won't change anyone's mind. No one could change my mind that "First Heretic" is the best HH so far, but here it goes.

-The entire Cabal idea I thought was stupid. Why is Alpha Legion the only ones who would "see reason"? The only explanation that makes sense to me is because they are the most gullable, which makes no sense giving the Legion's theme.

-For the love of god, why was 1/2 the stupid book about on what terms the Primarchs and the Cabal were going to meet when in the end it meant absolutely nothing! Who outsmarted who on a meeting place and terms was irrelevant in what Abnett was trying to do. He was trying to be clever with something that was meaningless in the terms of evolving the novel.

-But the big one for me is the absolutely idiotic reason Alpha Legion turned to Chaos. So that the xenos can inherit the Galaxy? And who gave them this advice, a XENO COMMITTEE! Being Astartes they should have never have even agreed to talk to xenos, but since they did it should have gone "you need to turn on the Emperor so that...." *sounds of botler shells* and a room full of dead xenos.

- The whole idea of saving the Galaxy from chaos at the expense of the human race was wrong to begin with (not to mention stupid). The Emperor can't win eh? Lets even dismiss the entire notion that Alpha Legion could have ended the entire I5 turning it from a Horus major victory, to a final defeat for the traitors. All they would of had to do is say "Ya Horus, we will join you and sneak attack the loyalist legions on I5". And as they land with the Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords to destroy the 3 loyalist Legions you would have the Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and White scars landing right behind the traitors. Horus's defeat would have been comeplete, courtesy of Alpha Legion.

But putting that aside, and even putting aside their niche of espionage. If they had done nothing more than just brought their Legion to Terra to defend it, it would have stopped Horus. Their contribution to slowing down the loyalist would not have been there, freeing up the loyalist legions in ways they probably didn't even know they were being hindered. But just the bodies in the field at Terra would have made Horus's defeat a certainty. An entire legion with 2 primarchs would have sealed the deal.

Will post more later, but dinner time.


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## The Scion of Chemos (May 24, 2013)

mal310 said:


> Clearly because you have a poor taste in writing. IMO Abnett is one of Black Library's top three writers. His characterisation is second to none. An all round superb author.


So, people who have different taste than you have shit taste? Weird, I thought people could have their own opinions.
Don't get me wrong. I like Abnett's work a lot, but I don't think it is that good.



Angel of Blood said:


> And yet you say you like Mcneill? Who uses an abundance of metaphors, unnecessarily complex and out of use words to hide the utter shite that is the plot, or lack of it to be more precise. The man who made a monumental chronological fuck up, and then tried, very poorly to cover his tracks in an audio novel. I can't even begin to list the shite he has produced. A Thousand Sons is his one fluke, his only redeeming work.


Again, maybe you think that. That doesn't make it fact. The Chronological fuck up was everyone on the HH teams fault IMO, as they all team work that shit.
Personally, my Graham is on of my favorite BL authors, he isn't the best, and his writing isn't perfect, but I really don't think anyone's is.

This is like Warseer level of douchbaggery from these two posts. So someone likes an author you don't, or dislikes an author you like. Deal with it. People have different taste, doesn't make that taste any less "right" than anyone else's taste. 
Sorry for the rant. lol.:grin:


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Still waiting on my freaking copy. Ordered it on Monday same as everyone else and yet I still don't have mine. Can't start any other books because I dislike putting books down to start other ones, and I must start _The Unremembered Empire_ asap, so until it arrives I can't read anything. Brilliant.


LotN


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## aerogems (May 16, 2013)

Zooey72 said:


> Well, we are not going to agree on "Legion". I have posted a bunch on these forums how I loathe that Novel. If it were possible I would pay the additional cost of the book again if that took the original money I gave to Black Library from buying that tripe. I will give a quick run down of why I hated it, but I am sure it won't change anyone's mind. No one could change my mind that "First Heretic" is the best HH so far, but here it goes.
> 
> -The entire Cabal idea I thought was stupid. Why is Alpha Legion the only ones who would "see reason"? The only explanation that makes sense to me is because they are the most gullable, which makes no sense giving the Legion's theme.
> 
> ...


I think you should read Legion again, because you seem to have missed several details.

The Cabal thing you're free to dislike all you want, but essentially they state that they went to the Alpha Legion because all the other legions were either too loyal to too disloyal. Plus the Alpha Legion was all about the long game.

As for why the Alpha Legion sided with Horus, it's basically because the Cabal told them they have a choice. The Emperor's plan for humanity failed when Horus fell to Chaos. So if the Emperor wins, you get basically what you have in the 40K universe. One of stagnation and slow decay dragging the entire galaxy with it. If Horus wins, however, then he will eventually destroy humanity out of self-loathing for what he did, but the rest of the galaxy lives on.

By the time Istvaan 5 comes along, Horus had already turned to Chaos, so essentially the Emperor's plan had failed. Meaning killing the other legions wouldn't have helped. 

But in the end, I think we need to all remember that we're talking about a very small publisher and a rather niche topic. While I do think ADB is way too good an author to be slumming it at Black Library, none of the BL stable of authors are likely ever to be the next Stephen King or Dean Koontz. The books are entertaining enough for what they are, but expecting them to be on the same level as international best sellers is only going to lead to disappointment. Plus, I don't exactly see any of the people who whine and complain about various author's styles putting out their own works that clearly demonstrate they could do better. When's the last time any of you wrote anything that wasn't self-published (if it was published at all)? WH40K/HH are kind of like low budget B-grade movies. You don't go in expecting them to be some huge budget production with all kinds of special effects, if you watch them it's because they have a kind of campy charm to them despite their flaws. Accept the WH/HH books for what they are and you won't be nearly as disappointed by them.


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## Sequere_me_in_Tenebras (Nov 11, 2012)

Looking forward to this one. Apparently it pulls a lot of the strands from past HH novels together (I'm avoiding spoilers).


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