# Broken Special Rules



## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

Which special rules in fantasy are universally accepted as being slightly overpowered and broken?

40k equivalents could be the holofields of 4th edition Eldar or Lash of Submission.

Just looking for a few things to be aware of when I start gaming.


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## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

tbh there isn't really a huge amount of broken rules i mean some armies do have annoying special rules (vamps being a main one - sorry jez) in that knights can move through terrain without penalty.

but really these rules are balanced by other annoying rules, i don't think armies are as broken in fantasy, maybe slightly crap points values on some things but even then you cn choose not to take the particular unit


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Always Strike First


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## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

yea always strike first is a pain but by no means broken i mean as you say strength three oh no my charging knights don't go first but they still pass saves on a 2 if you manage to get a wound through, hit on 4s (normally) wound on 4s (unless against chaos etc) then i get 2s i'd be unlucky to not get attacks back plus its down to tactics to charge correctly and there are ways to overcome it i mean elves initiative is hardly unbeatable and there are models that you can give always strikes first that would get their hit in with the higher initiative.

nope still think not broken. annoying definately but by no means broken i mean if there was some chaos, dark elf, high elf Amalgamation then i'd say broken i.e eternal hatred, always strikes first and high strength

until that happens not broken


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Discount Wargames said:


> until that happens not broken


indeed, not even on swordmasters or phoenix guard
mister 5+ armour save, meet mister great cannon and mister mortar
or even mister bow and misses arrow


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Exploding characters are annoying, not broken as such, but for a few measly points there are a number of talismans and other shiny things that make otherwise dull enemy characters explode on death. It really blows if you didn't get a chance to check the other guys list and your favourite unit/chief character stabber/general (oh noes!) gets blown up rather unheroically by some git of a character that got an annoying challenge in...


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## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

indeed i mean it would been unwise to charge swordsmasters as they hit hard and quick with greatweapons but a well shot hellblaster would cause them problems


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

actually I think the whole challenge system is broken
chaos lord and knights charge your 20 spearmen
challenge is issued
now two things happen
a: you accept and lose the challenge with your unit champion by say 4
b: you don't accept, lose 2 attacks, and instead lose 4 spearmen
(not including the other 500 spearmen you lose from the rest of the chaos unit)

so whats the point in it?, heroes accepting a challenge from a charging enemy is just as pointless, you may as well just drop the entire idea or just take the unit off the board


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## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

i think warhammer is more cheesy than broken i mean look at archaeon in the new warriors book 3+ ward save!!!!!!!!


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## Franki (May 7, 2008)

As discount said theirs nothing in Fantasy thats "Broken" as such....more things that are stupidly annoying but can easily be over come with something just as annoying.


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## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> actually I think the whole challenge system is broken
> chaos lord and knights charge your 20 spearmen
> challenge is issued
> now two things happen
> ...



yes but if you do not accept the challenge more than likely you'll lose a rank and models so it's better to take the challenge and only lose by combat res rather than actual wounds caused i mean the knights would have to cause a large number of wounds to overcome a full rank and file unit of spears granted on the charge it is possible but after all spears are designed to be defensive so should be taken in large blocks to take wounds and still gain full rank bonus. plus thats only really chaos that thats a problem as he'll hit you on a 3 and wound more than likely on a 2. but with chaos the unit would be so expensive chances are it would only be 5 strong therfore easy to pick off the odd one before they get to you in combat. i mean you'll get numbers ranks and file.... knights are not good head on with rank and file, even chaos knights especially if weakened. plus it's only one army which is designed that way i mean chaos don't get much in the way of range so you should be able to wittle them knights down sufficiently before it becomes a problem


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Discount Wargames said:


> i think warhammer is more cheesy than broken i mean look at archaeon in the new warriors book 3+ ward save!!!!!!!!


I think I just jizzed all over the place.

It depends on the challenge. I'd never put a General in a unit that didn't have a champion. That way, I'd be guaranteed he can smash some elves into the floor (7 attacks strength 6 attacks, and 3 strength 5 attacks, by the old rulebook, yes please) before being challenged.

One thing I've found is that my generals unit to make its point values up is to go straight into an enemy elite unit, first chance possible. With Chosen Chaos Knights, there isn't much short of a Lord/tooled up hero that can smash him into the floor (despite him costing twice the points of a Goblin Boss). So some snotty Greatsword champion challenges. I accept with my Champion. My champion hits on 3's, wounds on 2's, in addition to he mounts attack. Out of 4 possible wounds, law of averages suggests I'm guaranteed to kill him. So that's 1 Cmb resolution. However, I might have another 3 wounds I might have caused. Overkill gives me a +3 CMB resolution on top of that.

So for accepting a challenge, I killed a pesky champion (2 attacks = not good), and gained +4 cmb resolution.

Using the Hellfire sword on my Tzeentchian General before my Khornate army, I could theoretically get a 34 bonus to combat resolution (Disc/Daemonic Mount, and D6 wounds per wounding hit, after armour saves). I think so anyway - forget whether there was a limit or not on Overkill.

So it's a double edged sword - especially against Chaos, and other beefy combat units.

I challenge against Charging units. With the toughness, I can safely say that the majority of attacks have at most a 50-50 chance of wounding. So Champions/Characters issuing challenges get wasted on that.

I point you towards an example of a friends pre-updated High Elves. Charges with Dragon Princes. I issue a challenge with my Lord. Turns out he has Blade of Leaping Gold, so I'm up against 7 Strength 4 attacks. I have toughness 5, a 3+ armour save, (4+ from his strength), and a shield that wounded him a 3+ automatically every time I pass a save. I'm carrying a sword which has +1 WS, Str and Attack.

So he charges with his sword. 7 attacks, WS7. I'm WS 9. This means He's hitting me on 4's, I hit on 3's. So using the law of averages, he hits 50%, so 3, maybe 4 hits. Strength 4, against toughness 5. Wounding 66%. So 2, maybe 3 wounds. I have a 4+ Save to make, 50% chance. I pass 1, maybe 2 saves. I inflict 1, maybe 2 strength 4 hits on the prince, 66% chance to wound. Maybe 1 wound caused. He has a 1+ armour save, reduced to 2, with a 6+ Ward. Damn, no wounds caused, by his own doing. So now his horse attacks. Yeah, no contest, hitting on 5's, wounding on 6's. Next joke.

My return attacks - 7 attacks, at Strength 6. Hit 66% (on 3's). So 4, maybe 5 hits. Wound on two, same numbers of wounds. -3 to his armour save. 4+ means a 50% pass rate, so 2, maybe 3 wounds caused, the 6+ Save isn't goign to do much, rarely will work. Nearly dead or still living Prince. Then the Daemonic Steed attacks. Hits on 4's, means 1, maybe 2 hits. Wounds on 2's (=O), 1, maybe 2 wound. Saves on a 3+, 66%. Only 1 needs to wound to kill him.

So you see, that instead of having a hefty combat prince slam into the line, with 7 attacks, killing maybe 3+ knights, I've blocked that potential, either by forcing him to risk his Prince, or force him out of fighting. His prince is pretty much the only thing that can take me on, and he is clever enough to realise that he puts a Champion up to the challenge, I will completely annhiliate him, giving me a combat winning (especially vs. Cavalry) resolution just from the Overkill.

Admittedly, Chaos are combat monsters, but for weapons which D3 wounds etc (and in particular, if you field Valten with the Ghal Maraz, depite the Storm of Chaos finishing), he was extremely nasty, 4 (5?) attacks, doing D3 wounds? Issue a challenge with that beast, and he can toe-to-toe any fully ranked up unit on the charge - 15 wounds and a kill, against 3 ranks, standard bearer, outnumber and no wounds. 15-5 = -10 leadership = broken unit, on a big elven steed = run down.), you can decimate fully ranked up units with a clever challenge.

Learning when to accept or when not to, is the reason I have won many game winning combats.


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## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

:shok: owned lol +rep to you


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Maximum of +5 combat res from overkill dude, 34 is a little over the top


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Thought there was some such jazz as that =(.


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## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

only one i can think of is always strike first.


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## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

Lord Sinkoran said:


> only one i can think of is always strike first.


annoying but as said earlier its annoying but by no means is it a broken rule

teclis casting spells at unstoppable power on any double is worse but still not broken

sorry i'm still not convinced there are any broken rules in fantasy just a selection of annoying ones which are easily beaten by different units i.e hello mr teclis with stupid magic meet mr cannon with d6 wounds.


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## Othiem (Apr 20, 2008)

Only major annoyance with HE ASF is that due to elf initiative, it overrides most other army's ASF that they can pay for. Nothing is more annoying then rolling up Bash 'em Ladz with your shaman vs HEs. If the rule were along the lines of "strikes first, unless the opponent has the proper ASF USR granted through some way" would make me much happier about the whole thing.

Most of the "broken" issues in WFB come from combinations of magic items though, creating unkillable lords and such, not as much from the actual rules.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

ASF is a lot more use against some armies than others against Chaos, Dwarves,and other high ws high toughness armies many of the attacks will bounce off, against horde armies cost and unit strenght can win out its just armies like Ogres that really struggle due to small units and really low WS plus toughness 4 is no higher than orcs and the large base size means more attacks against so they usually get their asses handed to them. I think the only really busted rule is the fear rule as even losing combat by 1 will see your best units running and when combined with killy vamps losing is more likely.


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## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

The new giant with a mark of slannesh is pretty broken. So is the special character in the mortal chaos book that drops lightening bolts every turn with no range. Other than that nothing much is broken just really annoying, like the reverse ward save on a Dark elf character.


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

A lot of people say that the ASF we have is broken...but look at the toughness and strength of the models lol. Most of the high elves are S and T 3...so even if we do go first, there's not much a Chaos warrior should be worried about from the rank and file. HE are a lot easier to kill in melee than most people think.

As far as broken rules...the necromantic magic in the VC codex omg. You can cast a healing spell (ION) from the same wizard multiple times! I've played a few VC armies with my HE and hot damn are they hard to beat lol. The sheer weight of numbers that a VC army can dish out would make a skaven player blush.


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

I think vampire counts rasing there own units is a bit broken, but the models they rase have poor stat lines and they have to cast a spell to do it, so all in all I think it is fair


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## Hudson (Jun 3, 2008)

yes they raise their dead but they're crap what they raise if you kill the vamps (as hard as it is) the army will start to crumble, thats why they make them tough. but still not broken just irritating as you have to destroy the whole unit


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