# Before I post an armylist



## Jack Jack (Nov 16, 2008)

I am a new high elf painter, becoming player soon, and I would like to know what unit in this codex are effective at what. And, before someone says it, if it was as simple as reading through the codex, I would not have started a thread 

I just realised I have this mental problem with the game : I have my idea of how this or this unit or special rule should perform, and then I look at the rulebook to see if it has the stats to pull it off.

Example : I read about skirmishers and I thought : Ah these guys should all be able to shoot at enemies as their loose formation won't block line of sight. But, alas, I found no rule that says so, and the more I read about "loose" formation, the more I found it to be a curse rather than a boon (it only really makes them worse in close combat with light troops, and ironically harder to manoeuvre as you still have to keep them in rank in file, but you can't mount them on trays), than I decided that all models with this special rule must suck. Especially Shadow warriors, as it is like GW was not aware that it sucks for a CC unit to be unable to disrupt the enemy from the rear, especially when nagarythe hatred and ambush would suggest this as their main form of use.

I also decided that CC unit unable to pursue foes was lame and thus that GE must suck, and then I met this guy saying that they are awesome : dirt cheap and perfect for taking out opposing crew of war machine on turn 2.

Since I was kinda the guy to think about playing around 800 ish points, I was rather surprised to see something costing one 16th of my allowed points per model be reffered as dirt cheap. 

I also decided that Charriot sucked purely based on the fact that these things, historically haven't been in use since the Antiquity, and when I saw that Lion chariot were 3 attacks for 140 points, I was convinced I was right, Impact hits or not. Then someone told me that no, there are two lions and two WL on the model, so that's 6 attacks, 3 of wich comes from the lions, and no part of the unit gets removed as casualty as it takes damage, it started to make more sense. I still think these things are historically out of place thought. 

Soo...
Anybody (especially High elves players) can tell me what his units (and magic items) are really effective for ? What are the combos you've designed that proved effective on the tabletop you are the most proud of ?


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

Swordmasters, Phoenix Guard, White Lions.

Those are our bread & butter. Pick the one(s) you like, there's no bad choice.

I love me my Swordmasters - they are the finest killers in the game = but pay for it by dying just as easily.

Phoenix Guard are hugely survivable, but with the lowest offencive capability. 

White Lions are very hard to kill with shooting, are stubborn and the strongest troops we have, but aren't quite as killy as Swordmasters, nor quite as resiliant as Phoenix Guard.


For core, we frankly, have no good choices. Pick Spears or Archers as you please, and for the love of god, don't spend a point more than you have to on them. Sea guard are worse still.


Our Dragons are not good. One 40 point cannon is more than capable of wasting your 400 point Dragon. Feels bad, man.

Our Magi are expensive, but good. don't forget that they always have an extra +1 to dispel. Lore of Life and Lore of shadow are your best lores, pick either or both.

Charriots are good. On balance, you're probably better off with two Tiranoc chariots for very slightly more points than one Lion chariot.

Chariots are for supporting an extant combat. Once one of your infantry blocks is engaged in combat with one of the enemy's, crash a chariot into the enemy's flank for extra combat resolution. do not expect chariots to do much on their own - they are for support.


High elf Cavarly begins and ends with Dragon Princes. For the points, they are stellar - with the proviso that all Cavarly took a nerf in eighth.


Eagles!

I cannot say enough good things about Great Eagles!

Whether you're hunting war machines - preventing the enemy from marching, holding up a charge for a turn, getting exra combat rez, or just getting the hell in the other guy's way, Eagles are there.

Take one in every list you make, take two in any list of 1k or more. Take four if you can.

Over at Ulthuan.net (the high Elf forum) we have a huge thread dedicated to using Eagles properly, read even a little of it and you'll start to understand why no Asur general leaves home without his feathered friends.


As for Magic Items. We love the Annulian Crystal. In every one of his magic phases, the enemy has one fewer power dice and you have one more. It's the best magic defence there is, short of Becalming Cogitation - and has none of Becalming Cogitation's drawbacks.

The Silver Wand is a no-brainer for your second mage. +1 spell for so few points? You'd be a fool not to.

The Banner of Sorcery is the one magic banner you simply never go without. If you've made a list and it doesn't have +d3 power dice/turn, go back, you've done it wrong.

If you have a prince, then the Armour of Caledor+Vambraces of Defence can make even an Elf nigh invulnerable. 2+ rerollable Armour and 4+ Ward? Hell yes.

Which brings me on to magic weapons. don't bother. When you Always Strike First and a Great Weapon is 8 points, why bother with a magic sword?


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yup; SM, WL and PG is where the strength of HE comes from... well that and their magic. Personally I don't like SM much since they die to a stiff breeze: I would take PGs as an anvil unit and WL as a hammer unit.

Chariots aren't great: I quite like tiranoc chariots as support but they don't do mucy, while WL chariots are great but very expensive. Elven cav is fairly nice but really suffers from S3 basic (meaning they are only really powerful on charge). Silverhelms make an ok tarpit while DPs have lost a lot of their shine from the old edition.

Eagles are fantastic: 1-2 should be taken in any HE army of decent size. They are massively versatile and just will not die unless you let them: my WE eagles normally end up suiciding to hold an enemy unit in place for a turn or two (though doing random cool things like breaking and destroying units of chaos knights is always fun too: I'll flank charge almost anything given the opportunity).


Mostly HE armies are built around their mages and specials. Core should just be a block of your favourite type (I always took spearmen, but most people I've seen take LSG) and rare is a bit tame since eagles are cheap and RBTs aren't worth taking anymore.
For characters I liked to take a Lv4 archmage with back up from a lv1-2 mage, take caradryan and a BSB is I could find the points for one... but it all depends on what magic you like to take (lore of life archmage with lv1 metal or lv2 fire was my standard).
... don't take Teclis unless you are going to a tournament. He is immense but absolutely no fun to play against, many people will just choose not to play you (and TBH he takes a lot of fun out of your game too).


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## Jack Jack (Nov 16, 2008)

Azezel said:


> High elf Cavarly begins and ends with Dragon Princes. For the points, they are stellar - with the proviso that all Cavarly took a nerf in eighth.


Everyone says that. What happened ?


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## Ratvan (Jun 20, 2011)

basically the introduction of the steadfast rule has more or less killed cavalry as you can not longer reliably break a infantry regiment that you have charged with the cavalry


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

Jack Jack said:


> Everyone says that. What happened ?


1) As Ratvan said - Steadfast means that your typical Cavalry unit is highly unlikely to beat your typical infantry unit in a straight fight.

2) The random charge distance in Eighth (which I like!) means that Cavalry's superior movement is no longer quite so special.

3) Since flank charges are no longer quite such an I Win button as they once were, Cavalry's superior maneuverability is no longer as needed.

4) charging no longer means hitting first, and since most Cav units are small it's entirely possible for a unit of cavalry to be wiped out before their initiative comes up.

5) Step-up means that, even if cavarly does hit first, it's possble for them to be wiped out in a turn, since again, cav units tend to be small.


None of the above is iron-cast, and none is the single deathblow of cavarly. however, all taken together mean that Cavalry is not so useful as it once was. It still has a use, but it's not _as_ good as in Seventh.


If you mean why are Dragon Rpinces the start and end of high elf Cavalry, it really comes down to efficiency over Silver Helms. For seven points you get +1 WS, Initiative, Attacks, Armour and Leadership, as well as the option of magic items and bannner and 2++ against flaming attacks.

Silver Helms aren't bad per see - but Dragon Princes are just so much better for so small an extra cost.


Ellyrian Reavers can just go sulk in the corner 'cos nobody loves them.


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## Jack Jack (Nov 16, 2008)

Ratvan said:


> basically the introduction of the steadfast rule has more or less killed cavalry as you can not longer reliably break a infantry regiment that you have charged with the cavalry


Maybe they'll publish an errata which in which they say that steadfast doesn't apply when disrupted/attacked from more than one side/on the turn you charge with lances, maybe even give always strike first to lances, except when defending against spear, just hoping (As it is only fitting and proper that cavalry should dominate the battlefield, if only for the sake of historical accuracy) :read:


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

Jack Jack said:


> Maybe they'll publish an errata which in which they say that steadfast doesn't apply when disrupted/attacked from more than one side/on the turn you charge with lances, maybe even give always strike first to lances, except when defending against spear, just hoping


That's very unlikely. the fact that the rulebook specifically points out that Disruption doesn't break steadfast implies that Steadfast is a central pillar of the way the designers intended the rules to function.

To put it another way, it's not a bug, it's a feature.

And giving charging Cavalry ASF wouldn't help much. I mean, Elven cav _has_ ASF and we still don't find them ideal.




Jack Jack said:


> (As it is only fitting and proper that cavalry should dominate the battlefield, if only for the sake of historical accuracy) :read:


That's uh... That's not remotely true.


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## Ratvan (Jun 20, 2011)

Steadfast for me is part of a double edged sword as I have recently started playing Bretonnians, I do like the fact that I can sacrifice one uni t(knight Errants) to effectively form a wall of combat to protect the harder hitting units of my army while they try and break their targets and reform to face a new threat. 

It just means that Cavalry is part of a larger battle plan and that tactical manouvers form more of my starting turns then a headlong charge into a mass blck of spears....which lets face it is where cavalry gets f#cked anyway


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Nah, won't happen: it would be too complex a rule.
I just wish that disrupted units weren't steadfast.... but the new rule of the week (for me) is that any ranked up unit 50+% in a forest cannot be steadfast (while skirmishers in the same position are). Which is cool, and really useful.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Agreed on the issue that disrupting ranks should also break steadfast. What frustrates me most is that the literal reading is that a unit with one rank (only the front rank) charged by a monster is still steadfast because it has a rank and the monster does not have a rank. My sense is that the "spirit" of the rules is that steadfast requires a rank bonus (a second rank), not just a first rank, and/or we should treat monsters and chariots as though they count as one rank for purposes of determining if an opposing unit is steadfast and break steadfast against units with only one rank. I would even be in favor of treating a single rank of cav, monsters and chariots as though it were two ranks given the rider and mount and length of the model. 

We are finding that the 50% in forest rule helps a bit but is too often avoided by larger units and the forests contructed for 7th and earlier editions at most tourneys are too small to force the issue or alter movement. 

I am a fan, for that reason, of putting rivers on the table, especially since rivers are easy and cheap to make. Units in rivers get no rank bonus and are not steadfast. I try to make rivers 24" to 36" long (modest curves, often running to a board edge) somewhere in the center of the battlefied between opposing armies or cross the battlefield from one side to the other and then allow for at least one forge or bridge or crossing at least 5 or 6 25mm models wide somewhere on the battlefield. I find that it really helps balance the game and adds a tactical element to the game that is interesting. I'm not a fan of the OTT magical terrain rules; so most of the rivers are simply rivers.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

I'm also just starting to play WHFB again, but what on earth is that "step-up" rule everybody keeps mentioning? Does anybody have a page in the rulebook where it explains that, because it would appear I totally missed that one... 

or your own explanation would be great as well.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Basically its that models killed are now taken from the back not the front: you can't stop enemies attacking by killing their front row anymore.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

So what's the point in initiative order anymore or striking first when your opponent has a crapload of ranks? Or am I missing something significant here?


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

High innitiative is no longer nearly so useful as it once was to rank and file models.

There are exceptions, though. For example, directing high init attacks at a character can kill her before her init comes up.

In general, though, you're right, if there are a few ranks on either side, init is irrelevent.


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## Mundungu (Jul 23, 2010)

It removes ranks at a higher initiative. This means the elves will remove the Lizards supporting attacks sooner. It means a flank charge can cause fewer attacks back (as the back rank is removed and was likely partially engaged). Step up was essential to make some armies function in an infantry heavy game, such as lizardmen.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

High Initiative was rarely a benefit in the first place. Only certain units able to make use of it were that good - Chaos Warrior Halberds, and Bloodletters, really, were the only units capable of taking hits, and retaliating with enough high strength high initiative attacks.

In 7th Edition, the Great Weapon was preferable - the additional armour save from Parry rather than a Ward Save, meaning that high initiative was traded off for easier to wound and ignoring that extra armour save, cavalry were more prevalent so more 1+/2+ Armour. Also, the Always Strike Lasts was either not a problem, as if you charged, you struck before Initiative Order, and if you were charged, you were striking after regardless of ASL or not.

In short - White Lions - S6 Elves HURT. Heaviest infantry armour save is basically T4 3+/5++, without relying on magical trickery - Chaos Warriors of Tzeentch with Shields - You hit on 4's, wound on 2's and make their armour now a 6+/5++. You can also give them the razor banner to entirely ignore anything short of Cavalry armour, Magical Armour suits, or units buffed by magic.

Chariots - a relatively cheap unit capable of ignoring ASF which is becoming more prevalent with the Lore of Light available in some manner to many armies.

Eagles - with most enemy units having a 2nd turn charge capability, using your Eagles you can make that 3rd turn, increasing squishy elves survivability.

Spearmen/Lothern Guard - many aren't too fond on these as actual killing units - but a unit in 10x5 formation gives you a potential 50 ASF WS4 attacks. Even at S3, you can get 15 spearmen to put attacks on enemy characters before they can strike, which is likely to cause a couple of wounds. Hitting on 4's, wounding on 5's means that even if you cause only a single wound, you've also held up an enemy character. You'll see below why, but just give them the Banner of Discipline.

Bear in mind that bigger units with more buff spells available means that you're exponentially increasing their benefit - more people benefitting from a single spell.

Also, Lvl 4 Wizards, don't leave home without it. Life, Death, Shadow are the lores to go for in order. Maybe consider Metal if facing Dwarves.

For a cheap character, you can really even dispense with the Magic Weapons - give a Prince a Great Weapon, and the Amulet of Light, and put him in a unit likely to face Forest Spirits/Ethereals. He can challenge enemy champions to keep himself alive as well as giving you an easy kill.

If you don't have many friends, just take Teclis. IF'ing Dwellers/Purple Sun/Pit of Shades, or Mindrazor - remember those Spears with Banner of Discipline? Target an enemy unit with Mystical Miasma, and you've got 50 WS4 targetting enemy units with WS4 or lower with S9 attacks.

So, in short - my list would revolve around;

Teclis
Prince/Noble with Amulet of Light, Great Weapon, and Dragon Armour
BSB with Banner of Eternal Flame, Dragon Armour, and Great Weapon
Level 2 Mage with Forbidden Rod/Sceptre of Stability/Channelling Staff and Lore of Life/Heavens.
50+ Spearmen with Full Command and Standard of Discipline
White Lions
Phoenix Guard

The Mage with Forbidden Rod/Channelling staff helps give you the most number of dice - Rod means you get to buff a poor Winds of Magic roll once a game, Channelling should grant you an extra dice or so each turn, which can help you pop out an extra easy spell.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

... and of course the phoenix guard should be carrying the near mandatory banner of sorcery. Between that and Teclis it is very difficult to have a 'bad' magic phase.

Having said that, banner of sorcery and Teclis is a sure way to lose friends: in a friendly army I would just use the banner and take an archmage: you'll have a decent number of power dice and the enemy can still defend against some of your magic. Lv4 life/shadow gives you plenty to work with and can turn any unit into an ultimate killer/tarpit.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

Tim/Steve said:


> ... and of course the phoenix guard should be carrying the near mandatory banner of sorcery.
> 
> ...
> 
> Lv4 life/shadow gives you plenty to work with and can turn any unit into an ultimate killer/tarpit.



Yeah. Don't use Teclis. Or the Book of Hoeth for that matter. Just not fun for the other guy.


For my part, I like to use Life _and_ Shadow.

A Life L4 and Shadow L2 in any army of 1'500 points or more. Those two, plus the Banner of Sorcery, Annulian Crystal and Silver Wand
Will give you some awesome magic.


I grant, many people will not recommend two Magi bellow 2'500 points, but it can work. Even with the Banner of Sorcery, you won't be casting every spell you have (seven) in one turn, but you'll have so much choice and enough power dice to do almost everything you want.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Teclis is generally banned and Book of Hoeth is the most banned item at the Indy GT's in our region of the USA. The folding fortress is also either banned or tournaments are adding a house rule limiting the number of models that can bunker in a building because of the poorly written building rules (always steadfast, only 10 std models in combat, unless the defending unit breaks the assaulting unit must back up and wait for another turn to assault-limiting combat). Thus, our tourneys are specifically removing the ability to run Teclis in a tower with a BSB with world dragon banner and like 100 archers. 

High Elves with banner of sorcery and good arcane choices are one of the armies that can benefit from a second mage. This allows one to have a lvl 2 with the annulian crystal ro a dispel scroll for improved magic defense.


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