# CSM vs Space Puppies



## Emperor's Child (Apr 23, 2009)

I've been playing Chaos for about 5 years now, and so far my most challenging battle was against the brand new Space Wolf codex army..

So my main question is: What is their weakness?

Some people have told me 'point cost'.. but that proved to be completely untrue, since basic SW units are really cheap while being better than many specialized units of other forces. The priests are extremely powerful as well, especially at eliminating HQ units with their Jaws psychic ability (which managed to destroy 3 monstrous creatures in my force)

At the moment the only idea that comes to my head is trying to outnumber them with most basic units


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Out numbering them with basic troops would be an idea, but they're troops cost is on par with CSM costs, but they get ATSKNF and Counter-attack free. They're wolf priests make a mockery of CSM powers, between their runic weapons (4+ to defeat psychic power and WTT(5+ to defeat psychic power, stacks with the 4+). Their heavy weapons guys are cheaper and better, and tanks are on par from what I've seen, so you can't out-heavy him. I dunno, combination of 'zerkers and plague marines could do well (plague marines cancel all bonus attacks from charging - meaning their counter attack is useless. Other than that, just fight them as you would normal marines.

after that, it's just down to wits and luck.


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## Emperor's Child (Apr 23, 2009)

Well, Plague Marines did a fairly good job at close quarters against wolf guard.. just 3 plague marines managed to survive a charge from 10 space wolves and live for 2 whole turns of combat killing 6 wolf guard at the same time..

Zerkers also proved to be superior in CC, but point wise they are just so much more expensive. Perhaps using vindicators to deal with those large packs and the priest could also work..


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## ArmoredGhost (Aug 18, 2008)

I've played against SW only twice so far and they only weakness I can see is their low leadership but even if you win combat or make them fall back they have that SM rule that makes them auto-rally.


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## jasonfly (Feb 1, 2009)

try to slow them down, maybe try pinning them? sacrificial squads to take the charge and then mow down the wolves? pray? try and make any CC you start with them be on your terms?


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Obliterators. I repeat. Obliterators. SW have issues with heavy weaponry. They're all oriented to leaping in your face. A squad or two of oblits will help well, I think.


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## jesse (Sep 29, 2008)

you should try a vindicator
or two
they make mince meat of space wolves.
i use big berzerker squads, usually led by an IC when points permit, and they do a good job of killin 'em.
oh, and what really pisses off the space wolf guy i usually play is, ill have a squad of ten chosen in a rhino, roll up next to a squad of nasties of his, then hop out with five plasma guns and bolt guns and double tap.
that usually clears them out:grin:


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Walkers...Bring some Defilers, S8 pie plates stop horde versions of Greyhunters with Wolf guards attached, and if they don't have a grey hunter unless they are me, they don't have fists in the squads. So walkers = grood


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## Truthteller (Sep 2, 2009)

1. SW are basically SMs but with a few pluses - extra attack, counter-attack, more power weapons in a squad - and a couple of key weaknesses - no heavy weapon in the BC or GH squads, need WG to bring Ld up, no Combat Squads and (very important) a bit of an attitude.
2. I've played CSM for 2 years. I've never lost to SM except once when the player maxxed out the vehicles (3 Dreads, 2 Vindicators, 1 predator, 3 Landspeeders and 2 TLLC Razorbacks in one army at 1500 points). If someone has chosen to play SW they won't be going the heavy vehicle route. That means they will want to fight in HTH. 
3. They want a fight, give it them. Plain CSM will match the SW in close combat and with the IoCG they'll stay in it when they have a bad set of dice in a way the SW won't. ATSKNF is a great rule but it has limitations if you have the higher Initiative (Zerkers on the charge, Noise Marines, CSM with the Mark of Slanesh, DP). No SW can match a DP in close combat at the cost. Wings, MoT, Warptime - 175 points of MC that's better than any Wolf Lord in combat and more manouverable. With I5 and -1 for being an MC JOTWW shouldn't be too much of a risk. Use the Zerkers and Noise Marines and Raptors with DPs and meet them head on.
4. They're SW, they won't be bringing loads of vehicles, so concentrate on anti-personnel rather than anti-tank units. Deflier with 2 DCCWs, Chaos Dread with 2 DCCWs, Noise Marines with SBs, all good. Leave the Chosen with 5 Meltas at home, and the Tri-Las Pred. Take a couple Obis just in case, but really they are just insurance. 
5. Make sure you know the SW codex rules. The Terminators can't deep strike, the pods don't have locator beacons, the BCs ( and Skyclaws) only get the +2 attacks if they charge NOT on counter-attack, Skyclaws are very susceptible to the Headstrong rule because they can't have WG leaders, etc. 

FWIW I'm just starting to build a SW army because I like the models and I like aggressive armies. But I don't think they are a super-army and I think the codex looks better balanced than some (Orks, IG).

TT


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## ArmoredGhost (Aug 18, 2008)

Thank you truthteller you actually made me see the light on some issues with dealing with the pups.


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## elkhantar (Nov 14, 2008)

The winged daemon prince is vulnerable to JOTWW? I thought since he had wings he was unaffected! (I'm asking because last time we ruled that my flying hive tyrant couldn't be affected, but I could be wrong...)


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

By RAI, he shouldn't be, however, I believe in RAW it states that he only moves like jump infantry, so a case can be made that he is in fact not jump infantry, but regular infantry, in which case he's affected. Though I5 means he'll only die on a 6, not something to worry about.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Inquisitor Einar said:


> By RAI, he shouldn't be, however, I believe in RAW it states that he only moves like jump infantry, so a case can be made that he is in fact not jump infantry, but regular infantry, in which case he's affected. Though I5 means he'll only die on a 6, not something to worry about.


And doesn't he get a -1 for being a MC? would that make it an auto-pass (as a 6-1 is still a 5)? Are I6 units, or I5 MCs still affected on a 6?


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

JOTWW is easy to counter it can't hit a DeepStriking unit until they are there DS oblits and shoot out the priests


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## Truthteller (Sep 2, 2009)

To answer Elkhantar's question. JOTWW affects 'Monstrous Creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes, and infantry'. (Ref C:SW P37) There's no exemption for winged beats or even jump infantry (who are a subset of 'infantry'). Daft? Yes. But that's RAW.

To answer Maddermax. '6 is always a failure' (Ref: as above)so even with I5 and a -1 on the roll (and wings) you can fail and be swallowed up.

Still anyone who puts their Rune Priest within 24" of my DP is in trouble. I tend to run a Lash Sorceror with my DP so 24" is well within striking distance  

TT


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Not so much really.. runepriests have all kinds of wonderfull toys to stop your lash from doing anything.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

And the FAQ clearly states Wings aren't jump packs and don't keep you out of vehicles. So JOTWW is a danger. And "6" always fails, no matter what modifiers, as stated in the power.


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## your master (Jun 14, 2008)

Truthteller said:


> 1. SW are basically SMs
> TT


thanks for clearing that up 

anyway to the op it depends what chaos army you play with chaos in combat against SW are pretty evenly matched but chaos have better fast attack, SW are expensive in the HQ department Njal is almost double the points of a dp with wings and mark of khorne who would easily deal with any grey hunter or bloodclaw pack also throw in a greater demon for 100 points and your laughing my army is all khorne i have played 2 battles with the pups and won both i tend to tie up the big hitters with lesser demons


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## Rixnor (Dec 23, 2007)

Lots of SW players are utilizing Blood Claws as there shock assaulting troops. This works well as their first turn they are comparable to zerkers on the charge. They suck against defensive grenades though. Without their charge bonus they are shitty marines. I think plague marines will end up being the answer for most chaos players because of that.

Rix


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## Truthteller (Sep 2, 2009)

If the SW player relies on Blood Claws for assault against Chaos he's in trouble. 

A sensible build for BCs might be 9 warriors with Melta and Power Weapon + WG in power armour with a PF. - 198 points - WS3 Ld9 - 31 ordinary S4 attacks on the charge - 4 S4 PW attacks, 3 PF attacks.

A vanilla squad of Chaos Marines at that sort of price is 8 CSMs with Melta and IoCG plus AC with PF - 195 points - WS4 Ld10 (with re-rolls on moale tests) -24 S4 attacks plus 3 PF attacks.

The only way a decent Chaos player lets the BCs get a charge off is coming out of a LR otherwise the CSMs charge.

In the first round the CSM get 24 attacks - convert to 12 hits - 6 wounds - 2 dead BCs plus 3 PF attacks -convert to 1 more dead BC - 3 dead BCs in total. The BCs, relying on counter attack not berserk charge, get 23 ordinary attacks, but hit on 5, so 8 hits 4 wounds and probably 1 dead CSM. The 3 PW attacks stand a 75% chance of killing 1 more CSM and the WG should get another. In other words on average dice they'll tie but the balance is slightly in the CSM favour. The thing is that if the dice are NOT average, the BCs are much more likely to run. If the BCs lose by 3 there's a 58.3% chance of them running. If the CSM lose by 3 there's a 17% chance of them running. Of course they still benefit from ATSKNF but (a) if caught by a Sweeping Advance (58% chance) they suffer No Retreat wounds and (b) they need to get 6" clear to regroup. 

So against basic CSM they are struggling. Against Berzerkers, Noise Marines or Plague Marines they're toast unless they arrive in overwhelming numbers. 

The Grey Hunters are actually better in the assault phase because of their higher WS, plus they can have MoTW and the Wolf Standard. 

TT


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## Rixnor (Dec 23, 2007)

Truthteller said:


> The only way a decent Chaos player lets the BCs get a charge off is coming out of a LR otherwise the CSMs charge.
> 
> In the first round the CSM get 24 attacks.....


I love it when people make one HUGE assumption and then go into a wall of statistics. Fact is a blood claw squad will assault you as often as often as they don't. So don't count on not ever seeing berserk charge, cause damn strait I'm coming out of land raider, and if I don't I'm certainly not going to be milling around waiting for you to assault me.

Oh, and check your math. WS 3 hits WS 4 on 4+

Rix


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Blood Claws are far too easy to avoid or bait, though. Then there's the whole defensive grenade thing. :shok:


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## BloodANgels89 (Jun 16, 2008)

Far too easy coming from the demons player? who has to get into the thick of it? I dont think so 

Also, it's extremely hard to avoid ANYTHING in a land raider (zerkers, termies, crusaders, w.e), and so what if you bait it, you will have to bait it with something of value, cause if it's a squad of 5 guys the SW player will just leave that to the long fangs.

Either way, I don't use blood claws because theyre practically useless in comparison to grey hunters.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

I think focussing on blood claws is a mistake, since most people will go for grey hunters. Hunters really are excellent troops.

Plague marines should be able to compete with hunters, though they do cost ~50% more per guy. Zerkers on the charge will continue to go through everything, but will take a few more casualties in return.

A typical space wolf army is going to feature a bunch of hunter squads in rhinos. Unusually, these will be happy to get out and be charged, by anything other than zerkers, thanks to counter-charge. They will be a lot less happy to take hits from plasma cannons. I'm pretty sure obliterators are a good option.

To be honest, I don't think space wolves require much of a rethink from chaos. The chaos units that were good in September are still good in October. Variations on the theme of zerkers and plague marines for troops, obliterators for heavy support and princes (lash or warptime) for HQ. It's not big and it's not clever, but it's rock solid.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Emperor's Child said:


> Some people have told me 'point cost'.. but that proved to be completely untrue...


Characters, in fact most non-troops, are expensive, see below. Its not hard to make a SW char run in on the same price as a stock LR:shok:



Truthteller said:


> ...No SW can match a DP in close combat at the *cost*. Wings, MoT, Warptime - 175 points of MC that's better than any Wolf Lord in combat and more manouverable...


The key word here is *cost*. A kitted, though more expensive, Wolf Lord will rip this dude a new one on a half-miss:shok:
Dont count on Warptime anymore since all reasonable SW players will have a RunePriest around for neat 4+ dispel, and without that the überefficiency of the DP evaporates


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## Truthteller (Sep 2, 2009)

Rixnor - That's what comes of posting at 1am when I should have been in bed. I treated the Bcs as needing 5+ to hit and the CSM as needing 4+. Of course it should have been 4+ and 3+. Run the maths again and the conclusion is still valid.

Also note that I did say that a 'decent' CSM player wouldn't let the BCs get off a charge and further qualified that by saying unless they came out of a LR. It wasn't a sweeping assumption. It was a thought out one. If you'd like to give examples of how BCs get into a position where they can charge next turn without the CSM being able to eitherr charge them or evade that doesn't involve a LR I'd be pleased to hear it.

Maiden - Yes 'cost' is key. A fully kitted Wolf Lord will cost 200+ points. He then needs a delivery system to get him to the right place to utilise all that CC power. At 175 points the DP with his Wings has his own delivery system. He also has a 4+ Invulnerable and Eternal Warrior as well as S6 attacks. A Wolf Lord with Saga of the Beast (Eternal Warrior), Jump Pack (Wings), Storm Shield (3+Invulnerable), Frost Blade (S5), Necklace (not as good as Warptime but it's the best he can get), comes in at 225 points. That's a sizeable differential given that the Wolf Lord is still struggling to hit as hard, can't re-roll 'to wound' dice, and doesn't get the extra D6 for penetration on vehicles (which the Dp gets for being an MC). 

TT


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## Rixnor (Dec 23, 2007)

Truthteller said:


> If you'd like to give examples of how BCs get into a position where they can charge next turn without the CSM being able to eitherr charge them or evade that doesn't involve a LR I'd be pleased to hear it.
> 
> TT


Use fenrisian wolves as outriders to lock them into close combat. Sit on an important objective and let them come to you. Run up in a rhino and disembark on the opposite side so that they can't get around in 12 inches or have to make a difficult terrain test (if they destroy it). Run a rhino up and stay inside, force them to either deal with your transport, move back, or take the assault.

Just off the top of my head. 

I am just trying to say that you can't discount Blood Claws as a great assualt unit. With a WG they can't be baited and they hit really, really hard. My original point though is that they get pwnd by plague marines.

Rix


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## Truthteller (Sep 2, 2009)

Rix - I'm building SW so I'm pleased to see your ideas 

Fenrisian wolf outriders - interesting idea that I hadn't considered but it does rely on attacking the CSM with 2 lots of models with a higher points cost

Objective sitting - not the first role I would usually assign to assault troops, but a valid tactic. 

Rhino tricks - both versions - assault the BCs if you can, if not pullback. The only time it's a real problem is if (a) the Rhino parks on your toes and (b) The BCs stay inside and (c) your run move is less than 3". 

One thing I think we can agree on is that CSM v SW is not a walkover for either party.

TT


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## heretical by nature (Sep 22, 2009)

my mate runs 1 unit of like 7 and 8 wolves, a land raider redeemer and 2 uber awesome heroes in 20k points. now im a tzeentch/nurgle player and i think the stats are something like W-1 D-3/4 L-1 so its always been pretty even and no matter what i do i cant get the edge over him.
any ideas?


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## Emperor's Child (Apr 23, 2009)

the Rune priest is not an issue by himself, sure a daemon prince can probably take care of him in the first round of combat, sure a couple of obliterators can deep strike next to him and shoot him to bits... 

unfortunately SW player will probably never leave a rune priest out of a squad of fodder, so by the time the obliterators or a prince are done mincing through the rest of the squad, the rune priest would be able to get a couple of Jaws cast offs..

I'm thinking pie plates.. and lots of them


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