# Why You Like and Dislike the Primarchs?



## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

*1) Lion El'Jonson*
*Like:* His description in savage weapon is neat. I picture him as the most "king" like out of all the Primarches. He has one of the cooler names though the origin of his name "a poet" doesn't really seem to fit his character. (i know it was because of the title of his poem but still...)
*Dislike:* He and all the Dark Angels are always going on about knightly honor but in every fight i have read involving him it always begins or ends with him sucker punching/stabbing his opponent. Dispite his dishonorable fighting style he still rarely wins (tied russ until the sucker punch and "tied" Curze even though Curze started the fight with a sword though his spine.

*2) Fulgrim*
*Like:* I like how tragic his character is. It gives him a lot of depth.
*Dislike:* Never been a fan of "pretty boys." He and his legion have always been too elegant for my taste. I dislike his name a lot. 

*3) Perturabo *
*Like:* I like how pretty much every primarch hates him and he is kind of a prick. I much prefer his fortresses and siege tactics over Dorns.
*Dislike:* I don't feel like his individual character has been reviled enough (though I haven’t read all the books yet.) I'd like to see more on him. I also constantly misspell his name.

*4) Jaghati Kahn *
*Like:* Based off of a cool historical character. I also picture him much differently in appearance than most other primarches due to his Asian design. And the Foo Mancu is the coolest type of mustache out there!
*Dislike:* Again I don’t think his character has been touched on enough, though I'm sure we we’ll se him in action once the books get to the battle of terra.

*5) Leman Russ *
*Like:* Big, savage, wild but still driven by his honor (sometimes to a fault). I see him as a bit of a tragic character, being used by the Emp to do things that other primarch/legions might find distasteful (ie: attacking brothers) because he, even if he found it distasteful as well would do it anyway out of extreme loyalty.
*Dislike:* Waaaaaay to many fanboys. A big space Viking that drinks and fights all the time. I find drinking much less trendy and cool then most so that part of him i just find stupid. I also don't think his name fits his personality... its too... plain. 

*6) Rogal Dorn *
*Like:* Dorn is probably my least favorite of the primarches. I guess i can appreciate his attention to the arts of terra but not during a time of "super war."
*Dislike:* Seems to be overly arrogant despite being one of the more fearful (or at least lets his fear effect him more) of the Primarches. I find him boring but hopefully the Battle of terra will change my mind once it is explained in more depth.

*7) Konrad Curz *
*Like:* Dark and angry. Can bend shadows to hide himself Nightcrawler like and shatter light bulbs with his mind. I like that he allowed himself to be used as a kind of scapegoat for the emp but was validated in the end. He also ripped up Lion despite being badly injured before and during the fight. With dorn being my least favorite it was cool when he nearly killed him.
*Dislike:* Another one with too many fanboys. His appearance seems out of place with the other primarches. His first claim to fame was beating Dorn during a night terror which i don't find impressive at all.

*8) Sanguinius* 
*Like:* Wings! Who among us wouldn't want wings? He is also a respectable warrior, taking down bloodthirsters without having use of his legs.
*Dislike:* Another pretty boy. His psychic "death scream" messed up the minds of his sons. He wasn't the only Primarch to die. Why was his death so much more spectacular to history?

9) *Ferrus Manus *
*Like:* He drowned a necron monster in LAVA! His arms were AV 14 that weren't affected by lance and melta weapons!
*Dislike:* Very stupid. "There are very few of us and our allies have chosen not to press on but let’s go anyway... oh crap we’re all dead."

*10) Angron* 
*Like:* A gladiator berserker! 
*Dislike:* A gladiator berserker... and not much else. I'm sure there has to be more too him but i haven’t read it yet.

*11) Robute Guilliman* 
*Like:* Another in the running of least favorite. How he trained his sons seemed neat but I can’t think of much else..
*Dislike:* SO BORING and I hate his name.

*12) Mortarion *
*Like:* He uses a Sythe! Super cool weapon IMO! I like how he was considered a freak and that he and his legion were tough as nails and were used to tire out the enemy.
*Dislike:* Darth Vader-like respirator has been done before. Seems stupid that the Emp would allow one of his sons to be more loyal to Horus than to him.

*13) Magnus* 
*Like:* Super psycher! He is able to kill as well with his mind as he is with his body and his unique appearance sets him apart from his brothers. Another tragic character who did his best to save the Imperium from his (though I think it was the Emp’s for even giving him a legion) mistake at the cost of his men and home world.
*Dislike:* He was never used properly by the Emp and his powers went to waste. Cyclopes’ have been done to death if sci-fy/fantasy = A missed opportunity to do something more creative. 

*14) Horus *
*Like:* He is the ultimate fall from grace. Basically the most perfectly balanced Primarch in terms of skill 
*Dislike:* Abandonment issues for sure

*15) Lorgar *
*Like:* Neat to have a primarch who is less of a warrior as it adds a bit of depth to their group. A major player in starting the Heresy. 
*Dislike:* A little daddy obsessed.

*16) Vulkan* 
*Like:* Basically grew up fighting dragon like creatures. He is very concerned with innocent lives with I think is a good quality for a primarch
*Dislike:* Basically playing hide and seek with his legion. VERY silly IMO.

*17) Corax* 
*Like:* Stealthy and tactical. His methods are great for taking down larger, better equipped armies. He can make anyone ignore his presence (perfect for assassinations). Not a glory hound like some other primarches. He seems to value the lives of his men as much if not more than any of his brothers. Uses a whip, and whips are awesome and used monsters in combat.
*Dislike:* Some of his tactics could be mistaken as cowardice. His departing “speech” was a bit tacky.

*18) Alpharius/Omegon* 
*Like:* The whole Legion is Alpharius, and so are all you friends. I hear your mother might even be Alpharius. The secret twin made him/them unique among there brothers. Their motives and actions make you think more than any other primarch.
*Dislike:* Don’t know much about them, just their legions tactics. I would like to see some of their actions pre corruption and some hints into their motives.

What is everyone else’s opinion as I know for sure that a lot of people view all the primarches differently? And you don’t have to do them all. I was having a slow day…


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## Emperors Champion72 (Jul 19, 2011)

I Love Rogal Dorn!!! Most Dedicated and honorable of all the Primarchs and sticks to his guns, and he is not a coward like Roboute Gulliman..His Chapters and successors have a cool background (Most notablity the Black Templars and the Crimson Fists are cool too) 

Not a big fan of Roboute very much either even though in the Newest Heresy short stories, it was pretty cool how he said the Codex Astartes was never intended to be dogma..of course it could just be Graham McNeil trying to trump up his beloved Ultramarines....

Favorite of the Traitors: Kind of tough to choose but I would have to go for: Horus first and Logar second..Least Favorite Alpharius/Omegon..

Good Post!!!


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

1) Robute Guilliman
I hate the smurfs they are dull as a sponge. I always say and even think his name wrong, Robert Gillimon, WHY CAN'T I SAY IS RIGHT!


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I don't have a problem with Robute Guilliman, although I did llaugh when someone put his name as Rowboat Girlieman. I guess i just wish there weren't so many blue marine armies.

First, the primarchs i am relatively indifferent to. Dorn, horus, sanguinus(not much info so far) the lion, peturbo(cool legion though), leman russ, fulgrim.

Not much time for Lorgar, the recent book seems to indicate that he was led rather than a leader and that the engineering of the heresy was masterminded by kor phaeron. Bit of a let down.(great book though).

We need more info on the khan, corax, vulkan and mortarion. There is so much more to come on these guys although I find corax interesting.

Ferrus manus is one of my favorites. The concept of his legion and the way he acts when he is wronged by fulgrim i understand. I knew he would die but he died for the right reasons.

Conrad. Space marine batman, how cool is that. Love the army and the primarch. All from lord of the night and the more recent soul hunter series. Bloody good work.

Magnus. I agree with one of the previous comments that his fall was brought on by the emp's mis management of the primarchs in the same way as conrad. Big fan of him and his legion though.

Alpharius. As far as am concerned, the coolest. Although that may be because of the mystery that surrounds him. I strongly believe he and his legion were among the most potent, simply because of the way they do things, and that kind of efficiency gets my respect. They need more fluff though. I want to find out how they ended up where they are.


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## InquisitorTidusSolomon (Mar 7, 2009)

I actually don't understand why you think Curze has a large number of fanboys. Compared to the likes of Sanguinius, Girlyman, and Russ, he's got next to no love from GW. I think the fans (I'm hesitant to call them _fanboys_) like him because he's genuinely cool. I have to agree with Shaantitus. He's Batman. In space. He's awesome.

I think Vulkan left for good reason. Once most of the Primarchs were dead or had fragged off to the Eye, the High Lords of Terra began running the show. Having a Primarch (or several) in the picture would have loosened the Lords' control over the Imperium and would have lead to less stability. Vulkan is the ultimate pragmatist. He knew he'd come back when his sons needed him, but knew the Imperium needed to be rid of the Primarchs, for no lesser beings could have wrought such carnage as seen in the Heresy. He's not coming back until the Imperium truly needs the Primarchs to return. I maintain that this is the same reason Khan, Corax, and Russ haven't returned.

Alpharius Omegon is definitely my favorite. I love the fluff around them, I love their tactics, and I love the whole idea of the Alpha Legion and their motives. Read _Legion_. That book has to be one of the greatest things ever to come from Black Library, and it takes a very good look at them.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Personally I dislike all primarchs for the same reason, and that is the fact that the idea of super one up leaders that are like demi-gods is something that really doesn't exist in real life, and is even kinda out of place in a sci-fi setting. Hell they also keep flip flopping on how powerful a primarch is with some dying to poison ect, and others able to take power fists to the face.

Mind you according to what has been established with the few cannon primarchs the table top stats of them is more or less 5s all around, with wargear/psychic powers carrying them to god like levels which makes a lot of sense when you cosider the human form even that of space marine esc being would have limitations that would limit how stong they realistically could be.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Only Guilliman has been killed by poison and it was very likely the Anathame, a weapon that could kill probably anything in the verse


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

InquisitorTidusSolomon said:


> I actually don't understand why you think Curze has a large number of fanboys. Compared to the likes of Sanguinius, Girlyman, and Russ, he's got next to no love from GW. I think the fans (I'm hesitant to call them _fanboys_) like him because he's genuinely cool. I have to agree with Shaantitus. He's Batman. In space. He's awesome.


He definitely has a fair number of fan boys, on this site and others, who think he is the bees knees. Ive read everything from him being the most dangerous primarch to him being the most skilled fighter without using weapons to him secretly being alive.

Yeas he is like batman as he started out as a bat themed vigilante but he is unlike batman in personality. Batman was not a psychopath.


> I think Vulkan left for good reason. Once most of the Primarchs were dead or had fragged off to the Eye, the High Lords of Terra began running the show. Having a Primarch (or several) in the picture would have loosened the Lords' control over the Imperium and would have lead to less stability. Vulkan is the ultimate pragmatist. He knew he'd come back when his sons needed him, but knew the Imperium needed to be rid of the Primarchs, for no lesser beings could have wrought such carnage as seen in the Heresy. He's not coming back until the Imperium truly needs the Primarchs to return. I maintain that this is the same reason Khan, Corax, and Russ haven't returned.


The High Lords of Terra took over before the heresy. That was one of the leading causes of tension to the primarches that caused them to turn. If anything Vulkan (and Corax)would be the most understand of that because of his compassion for real humans.


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## harlokin (Jun 3, 2011)

LukeValantine said:


> the fact that the idea of super one up leaders that are like demi-gods is something that really doesn't exist in real life, and is even kinda out of place in a sci-fi setting.


As is magic, daemons, Orks, and Elves.......I like the fact that 40K isn't some po-faced SCI-FI setting.

I liked the demi-god like Primarchs because they remind me of heroes mythology, their great powers balanced by tragic flaws. 

Couldn't agree less with most of the OPs assessment of the Primarchs, but it triggers debate. :grin:


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

harlokin said:


> Couldn't agree less with most of the OPs assessment of the Primarchs, but it triggers debate. :grin:


having differing opinions and interpretations is what this thread is all about. I'd like to hear what other people think... even if i disagree with it.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> Personally I dislike all primarchs for the same reason, and that is the fact that the idea of super one up leaders that are like demi-gods is something that really doesn't exist in real life, and is even kinda out of place in a sci-fi setting.


40k isn't a science fiction setting. It is a science fantasy/ space fantasy setting. Their are no rules to fantasy so nothing can truly be out of place (just things you dislike which is fine)

My wife is an urban fantasy author so strives for a mix of fantasy themes and characters but in a very realistic setting and she can't stand how uber macho normal space marines are let alone the primarchs so I can understand your oppinion.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I love Kruze myself. He is POPULAR now because of the awsome Night Lords series and Lord of the Night (That I still need to read, as well as his great showings of beating up Dorn, telling Corax and Logar off, and now matching the Lion. He also has a very tragic story.

My top Favs are Fulgrim, Kruze, Russ, to some extent Angron, Magnus, and Logar.

Hate Manus, him and his Legion existence is pointless. Also hate Guilliman, he was a asshole, like Graham work on the UM books but the Primarch is still a bitch.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I actually really like Khan and Curze. I enjoy the Ghengis aspect of the Khan and his method of war. As Apocalypse Now is one of my favorite movies ("Charlie Don't Surf") I like the idea of Curze as a necessary but shadow embarassment to the Imperial lie of truth and understanding. I have also finished the Night Lords two books (Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver) and I love the portrayal they have as that not only are they rogue traitors to the Imperium but as far as the rest of the Black Legion and Abbaddon's forces they are also rogues to that as well.


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## Delta1 (Apr 5, 2009)

im gonna use the same format as you op. i do agree on a lot of what you said. here are the things i like and dislike about each primarch.

1) Lion El'Jonson
Like: How he is depicted physically. A king like knight with long blonde hair, very statue-esque. his trademark sword and armor. 
Dislike: his sucker punches. has really bad trust issues. too enigmatic it becomes annoying.

2) Fulgrim
Like: tragic fall. great background with the daemon in his sword/head. very distinct style (puts makeup on for battle and dances around his opponents). his quest for perfection is an interesting character flaw.
Dislike: way too arrogant and conceited. the victory feasts he has with his legion before they go to battle is a good example of this. 

3) Perturabo
Like: the coldly logical siege master. seemed like the quiet tough guy who no one really wanted to start fights with (except dorn). his rivalry with dorn and kicking dorns ass so hard it took a while for his chapter to recover. always got the shit end of the stick with his deployments/crusades from the emperor, logically betraying him and siding with someone who would treat him a little better and give him some glory.
Dislike: not enough background on him. nothing much on his fall to chaos, ascension to daemon prince. 

4) Jaghati Kahn
Like: a demigod genghis khan. very unique/strange weapons for a primarch: a bow and arrows? that is awesome. rides a motor bike into battles. decent origin story.
Dislike: not enough background on him at the moment. left his legion to fight the dark eldar in the webway (come back to your chapter khan).

5) Leman Russ
Like: a demigod viking warrior. the emperor's executioner. one of my favorite origin stories. physical depiction is really cool: like a giant avatar of war. voice like thunder. left for the eye of terror to find the tree of life in order to bring the emperor back from the dead.
Dislike: the fact that he had to leave his legion/chapter. he had to do it to find the tree though. cant have everything.

6) Rogal Dorn
Like: slowly black library is adding more character to him. some of the descriptions of him being like a man of stone are pretty cool.
Dislike: not the most exciting character (yet), we will see what happens at the siege. has literally gotten destroyed by every primarch he has been in a conflict with (kurze, perturabo). seems like one of the weakest primarchs in single combat. arrogant. all around old crusty bastard. 

7) Konrad Curz
Like: most interesting origin story. great background. like a twisted superhuman version of the batman. uses fear tactics/terrorizes his enemy before going in for the kill. 
Dislike: the way he died. such a waste of an interesting anti hero. "here cut off my head so i can prove the emperor wrong". such a cop out.

8) Sanguinius
Like: one of the best in single combat. angelic appearance. seemed to care deeply for his brothers and sons (one of the few that were happy for horus when he was granted the warmaster title). his sword, crafted by the emperor iirc. his complete selflessness and honor. his sacrifice. his death, which made his chapter much more interesting. 
Dislike: his origin story wasnt the most interesting. 

9) Ferrus Manus
Like: his metal arms. how he doesnt have to use tools to craft his weapons/armor, just his arms. the fact that he uses them to fight sometimes. his origin story. his physical depiction: flinty eyes, stocky, stoic primarch. the relationship he had with fulgrim. polar opposites that were best of friends, very interesting.
Dislike: his stubbornness. pretty much sacrificed the majority of his legion and himself because he wanted revenge. 

10) Angron
Like: a menacing war machine that just kills anything/everything. good origin story about being raised as a gladiator. the fact that he hated the emperor from early on because of what he did to angron. doomed to side with chaos right from the get-go because of that.
Dislike: too one dimensional. not enough background on him or his legion. literally zero books about him. just cameos and short stories that further perpetuate his one dimensional nature.

11) Robute Guilliman
Like: his origin story reminded me of conan if he were to be raised by nobles. not a bad one. 
Dislike: doesnt seem to have any distinguishing fighting styles, armor, weapons, characteristics. pretty bland guy. 

12) Mortarion
Like: lots of character from actions alone. doesnt need to say much to leave an impression. signature fighting style and weapons. very cool physical description: a reaper, corpse-like iirc, toxic rebreather. great origin story. 
Dislike: his uncaring attitude for his legion. the fact that he got mad when the emperor saved his life on barbarus. 

13) Magnus
Like: seemed like one of the more diplomatic, decent primarchs. not as war like as his brothers, instead a knowledge and magic guy. his physical description: one of the largest primarchs, his one eye. his chain khopesh, his horned armor. tragic fall from grace.
Dislike: how he was judged a traitor by the emperor for trying to warn him. 

14) Horus
Like: the most skilled at everything. the big brother of all the other primarchs. the favorite son. the best and brightest. his fall to chaos. his war on the emperor. how evil he became. the perfect villain. his duel with the emperor.
Dislike: exactly what op said: abandonment issues.

15) Lorgar
Like: very passionate about his craft. gold skin is a cool addition. one of the major pawns chaos used to persuade others to fall from grace.
Dislike: one of, if not THE worst combat primarch. cant seem to properly defend himself against other primarchs. whines a lot. 

16) Vulkan
Like: the most loving of all the primarchs. cares a lot about civilians, seems to genuinely care about his legion. great origin story. his contest against the emperor. jet black skin and glowing red eyes make him instantly recognizable. master at the forge.
Dislike: theres not a whole lot of info on him. no explanation behind why he left his legion. his legion was pretty beat up at the time from istvaan as well. seems very lazy of GW.

17) Corax
Like: his wargear is very unique: cloak of blades, whip, claw, jump pack. his physical description: jet black hair and eyes, pale skin, armor so black that it seems to absorb the light. his distinct style of combat: stealth and guerilla fighting methods. his ability to be pretty much "invisible". great origin story.
Dislike: again, not enough info about him but thats gonna change soon with deliverance lost. the way he left his legion was also another lazy move by GW.

18) Alpharius/Omegon
Like: twins primarchs, one soul two bodies. their deceit and trickery: making the whole legion look alike, even the same name. very unique tactics. a pragmatic approach to completing their goals.
Dislike: too much secrecy, almost makes them bland. they are kind of like the stealthy ultramarines: everyone is the same, standard armor and weapons.


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## Justindkates (Apr 30, 2010)

8) Sanguinius 
Like: Wings! Who among us wouldn't want wings? He is also a respectable warrior, taking down bloodthirsters without having use of his legs.
Dislike: Another pretty boy. His psychic "death scream" messed up the minds of his sons. He wasn't the only Primarch to die. Why was his death so much more spectacular to history?


The death scream is some fairly recent bull shit the GW fluff guys came up with. Well I say fairly recent but I'm jaded since I started playing in the mid 90's.

Way back when the "Red Thirst" was because the Blood Angels were vampires, not because they were traumatized by the death of Sanguinius.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

locustgate said:


> 1) Robute Guilliman
> I hate the smurfs they are dull as a sponge. I always say and even think his name wrong, Robert Gillimon, WHY CAN'T I SAY IS RIGHT!


If it's any help, one of the more popular pronunciations I hear is "ro-boot gwee-ya-mon" kind of a french chic to it. But seriously, after having read about Apologist's Preators of Calth on Warseer and Dakka Dakka, and his character interpretation of Guilliman I just can't bring myself to see him as bland anymore (seriously, check it out, Apologist does an awesome job, I wish I could see more of his work, but havent been able to find any  .)


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Warlock in Training said:


> I love Kruze myself. He is POPULAR now because of the awsome Night Lords series and Lord of the Night.


Well everyone knows, the reason that Conrad Kurze is loved is because he's 40k's answer to Batman :grin:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Tbh i'm growing less and less fond of Kurze. Before i really like him, definetly up there with my favourites. I never really saw him as batman either(seriously he's nothing like batman), he was just that necessary evil, willing to go over the line and to that extreme edge for the Emperor, admitedly he began to lose his way at the end, but i still liked what he stood for. And just the general idea of the Night Lords entering a system would make anyone in revolt surrender.

But now, he's being glorified too much, suddenly he's beating up other primarchs everywhere, got people saying other primarchs were too afraid to fight him, suddenly he and his legion are masters of stealth despite that being the Raven Guard forte. And still people are crying for more from him, it's just getting a little much.

But seriously people, he's not batman in the slightest. Since when was batman a complete psychopath that murders everyone he comes across, looks half dead, sadistic, corrupted or cover himself in dead peoples skin, skull and death motifs? I'll grant you the modern Night Lords to seem to like bat symbols quite alot and maybe the pre-heresy ones did to a lesser extent. But really, anyone who knows anything about batman(and doesn't even need to know alot) knows that they are nothing alike. Batman was a Dark Knight, yes he let people believe he was a rogue etc, but he always did it for good and didn't go round murdering people. Kurze WAS rogue, he was uncontrolled, he did murder the shit out of everyone he saw.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I think he was referring to the imagery. Nobody could think that they`re similar beyond that. :laugh:


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

1) Lion El'Jonson
Like: He's got one of the greatest tactical minds of the Primarchs, and I'm a sucker for awesome tacticians. And he's the Grand Master of the Order. I like Knights, albeit ones with Bolt Pistols and Chainswords.
Dislike: I still don't really get why he sent Luther home. And I quite liked Luther.

2) Fulgrim
Like: He killed Ferrus Manus.
Dislike: He leads the Emperor's Children, my least favourite Chaos God's legion, and got possessed. Dislike the Dorian Gray-esque portrayal of the character in 40k.

3) Perturabo
Like: He's a siege specialist, which is really cool. He also owned six of those Ordinatus-like war machines found in Fallen Angels (And I thought they were awesome).
Dislike: Too attention-seeking, and wasn't content to do his job. I'd have loved it, building massive fortresses or knocking other people's down.

4) Jaghati Kahn
Like: Not a lot.
Dislike: Not a lot.

5) Leman Russ
Like: I watched Thor, and immediately thought 'I bet Leman Russ fights like that. That's cool.' Love his way of war - howling hordes of power-armoured Vikings. I love Vikings in general, and Leman Russ is the biggest Viking out there.
Dislike: Too drunk, and too arrogant.

6) Rogal Dorn
Like: Don't know enough about him.
Dislike: He was a complete tool in Flight of the Eisenstein.

7) Konrad Curz
Like: He said the coolest 40k quote - 'Death is nothing compared to vindication', and is a futuristic Batman. With a psycho problem. Oh, and he's so tragic, it's great.
Dislike: I don't like his legion as it is portrayed in the 41st millenium.

8) Sanguinius
Like: Awesome fighter.
Dislike: His sons are all sissies. They all want beautiful armour, and one went crazy because he got disfigured by an Ork. Yarrick got disfigured by an Ork and he went on to become a complete badass, right?

9) Ferrus Manus
Like: Nothing.
Dislike: Doesn't really do anything except get killed.

10) Angron
Like: Insane, lobotomised berzerker. What did the Emperor really expect him to do? Play nice?
Dislike: Nothing. He was free of the moral troubles of all the other Primarchs, which makes him epicly cool.

11) Robute Guilliman
Like: Ran a prosperous Empire whilst still commanding a massive military force.
Dislike: Again, didn't seem to do all that much except order people about.

12) Mortarion
Like: Scythe, respirator - an incarnation of Death if I ever saw one.
Dislike: Relented to Nurgle instead of putting up a fight.

13) Magnus
Like: Cyclops with massive psychic potential. Quite tragic.
Dislike: Nothing

14) Horus
Like: He is the ultimate fall from grace, and became a force that even the Emperor struggled to fight.
Dislike: Suffers from Superman Syndrome (Too good).

15) Lorgar
Like: Brilliant orator, and a religious fanatic.
Dislike: Not much of a fighter.

16) Vulkan
Like: Basically grew up fighting dragon like creatures. He is very concerned with innocent lives with I think is a good quality for a primarch
Dislike: Dissapeared and left clues rather than just telling his Legion where he was going.

17) Corax
Like: Created a race of berzerk Marines that were hideously, monstrously mutated beyond recognition. Space Frankenstein.
Dislike: Doesn't fight very grand-like. Not in-your-face enough.

18) Alpharius/Omegon
Like: Twins, and had a stand in for one of them. Omegon is Alpharius is actaully just the Captain of the 1st Company? Nicely done. Managed to outwit the Cabal.
Dislike: Nothing.

Midnight


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> I think he was referring to the imagery. Nobody could think that they`re similar beyond that. :laugh:


I don't even think they look the same. Find me a picture of batman covered in the skin those he has killed and covered in skull and death motifs. Is Kurze ever described as having bat iconography for that matter. I've only ever seen Night Lord astartes with bat iconography and even then only in the 41st millenium, and they still don't look like batman.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

To be honest with you I think Batman (while a badass in DC comics) would be a vagina in 40k. The Haunter is based off of Col. Walter E. Kurtz from Apocalype Now. M'Shen is based off of Maritn Sheen, the guy they sent to kill him in the movie. I know everyone looks at Batman to be honest I really don't see it. If you've watched apocalypse now you'll realize once he finds Kurtz his camp is lined with mutaliated and displayed VC corspes. The way leading up to it was lined with mutilated displayed corpses. If you remember Kurtz fought the war the with fear and turned the VC's on insidious tactics on itself. The Night Haunters gripe with the Emperor can be seen in the hypocrisy of the scene where Martin Sheen get's the order to kill him and also his trip up north to find him. Besides the bat which is supposed to inspire nocturnal fear (his thing) I honestly don't see how you get batman.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> I think he was referring to the imagery. Nobody could think that they`re similar beyond that. :laugh:


 Um no I actually was serious, yes there is the imagery, the bat wings on the night lords, but yes, he is an amalgamation of Batman and _Heart of Darkness_ (excellent book btw, be sure to read it sometime in your life it's agreeably disturbing) I shall demonstate for you.
The Night Haunter persona, a single orphaned vigilante who seeks to control crime on his home planet of Nostramo by way of psychology, frigthening the criminals, striking fear into their hearts, all for the altruistic ultimate purpose of caring for the people who fear him. 
Remind me, who does that sound like? (Hint, "I am vengance! I am the Night! I am BATMAN!.")
And of course as Deadye covered, the mutilations and part of the terror tactics comes from Apocalypse Now and _Heart of Darkness_ (The book on which Apocalypse Now was based for those who don't know.)


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> Um no I actually was serious, yes there is the *imagery*...
> The Night Haunter persona, a single *orphaned* *vigilante* who seeks to control crime on his home planet of Nostramo by way of psychology, frigthening the criminals, striking *fear* into their hearts, all for the altruistic *ultimate purpose* of caring for the people who fear him.


Imagery
Batman: Stylized bat silhouette
Curze (night lords): Bat winged skull, skulls in general, lightning

Orphaned
Batman: Loving parents who were killed. Raised by loving butler Alfred.
Curze: Raised by himself. Had Visions of his father and hated him.

Vigilante
Batman: Lifelong side job
Curze: No longer a vigilante once he become monarch... then he is just enforcing his own laws.

Fear
Batman: Scared criminals with threat of a good beating and jail. Brought hope to the innocent. 
Curze: Mutilated bodies so badly that they were unrecognizable... brought fear to everyone innocent and criminal alike.

Ultimate Purpose 
Batman: No matter how bad Gotham got it could always be saved.
Curze: No matter how bad Nostramo got it could always be destroyed by orbital bombardment.

and a big one you didn't mention

Personality
Batman: Obsessive optimist 
Curze: Psychopathic pessimist


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> Imagery
> Batman: Stylized bat silhouette
> Curze (night lords): Bat winged skull, skulls in general, lightning
> 
> ...


This. No need to say any more really.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> This. No need to say any more really.


Look folks, when I was talking about a RESEMBLANCE (notice that word it measn surface similarities), I NEVER said word one that Batman and Night Haunter were meant to be exactly alike. I said they were similar which is what GW intended and what the fans noticed.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I've never read any such statement that says hes based of batman, Kurtz definetly, but beyond some vague similarities i don't see it at all. And when people says "Hey Kurze is awsome, he's batman!" when he clearly isn't anything like him, irk me somewhat.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> Look folks, when I was talking about a RESEMBLANCE (notice that word it measn surface similarities), I NEVER said word one that Batman and Night Haunter were meant to be exactly alike. I said they were similar which is what GW intended and what the fans noticed.


They are not similar though. If anything Kruze is what batman would have been if he threw away every moral he had and his morals are what made him him.

The only RESEMBLANCE is that they were both vigilantes (for a time) and they both scared people. If that is the case why does it have to be batman? Their are other famous characters that did that such as Rorschach and the Punisher.


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> They are not similar though. If anything Kruze is what batman would have been if he threw away every moral he had and his morals are what made him him.
> 
> The only RESEMBLANCE is that they were both vigilantes (for a time) and they both scared people. If that is the case why does it have to be batman? Their are other famous characters that did that such as Rorschach and the Punisher.


^This. From what I've seen, Kurze is a grim-dark Batman/Punisher. All three have an obsession with punishing criminals. Batman does it for the people. Punisher does it for himself. Kurze does it because he can.

@Nicholas Hadrian could you post a link to that guy's character interpretation of Guilliman?


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Nave Senrag said:


> ^This. From what I've seen, Kurze is a grim-dark Batman/Punisher. All three have an obsession with punishing criminals. Batman does it for the people. Punisher does it for himself. Kurze does it because he can.
> 
> @Nicholas Hadrian could you post a link to that guy's character interpretation of Guilliman?


THANK you, this is what I am talking about. I am not and never said he WAS Batman, merely that the idea inspired them and they worked it in, just like how Jaghati Khan can have parallels drawn between him and Ghengis Khan, yeah they used ALOT more than just Ghengis as their inspiration but you can tell they knew who the Khan was, same with Kurze. Though one more point, I may be working off old fluff because what I read epoused that Kurze fought his war on criminals to defend the people of Nostramo, hence the altruistic desire.

As to the character interp, I might be able to find it, might even be able to post it in it's entirety. I'll go look.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

*Guilliman*

Ok I managed to find it, original post by Apologist in the Bolter and Chainsword Forums, original interpretation by Anguipipes on the Black Library Forum. Here's the link, and Apologist was kind enough to include a link to Anguipipes' post too. 
EDIT: Unfortunately it seems the Black Library deleted the Black Library thread to make space on their server, so, sorry for that. You can still read what Apologist said though.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=155547

(also, for the record, the Guilliman miniature turned out beautifullly)


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Nave Senrag said:


> ^This. From what I've seen, Kurze is a grim-dark Batman/Punisher. All three have an obsession with punishing criminals. Batman does it for the people. Punisher does it for himself. Kurze does it because he can.


That's not quite what i meant. If someone says because curze was a vigilante he is be based off of batman then he could be based off of pretty much any of the darker vigilantes. It doesn't mean he is (because he is very unlike all of them). 

Curze ≠ based off Batman


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

It's quite clear the way the Night-Haunter moves and thinks is based off of Batman, a much darker one who has given up trying to fight crime and realizing that years of putting the same criminals back in Arkham has achieved nothing.

What other dark vigilante? Top Cow's the Darkness?

Even if you do come up with some character I haven't thought of, you can't deny skull and wings Kurze being based off of Batman with a few differences of course, namely his passion to maim and kill.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Okay, let's be honest. The Night Haunter is a monster. His legion are terrorists. He knew that and decided to let justice be done upon him. Where in that do you see Bruce Wayne? Vampire's use bat symbology as well. So do a lot of people because guess what? Bats are fucking scary to a lot of people. They symbolize fear.Batman doesn't have that copyrighted,I promise you before Bob Kane created batman bats were used as a fearful symbol. The Night Haunter is a villain and he knew it. However the truth of it was is that was the only way to truly keep things in line and I honestly do believe the Emperor wanted him too. Just like Walter Kurtz before they decided to sanction him.The Night Haunter was mentally fractured. The Batman thrives on focus and obsession. Conrad curze wasn't orphaned. Batman's death of his parents turned him the way he is. Conrad Curze developed into what he is naturally,no trauma.He saw Nostramo and made his own decision. Gotham was always bad but the murder of his parents made Wayne care.So again tell me how these guys except that that they both like shadows and bats are similar.Vlad the Impaler has more in common with Conrad Curze than batman.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Read up on Kurze's history before you claim he is a villain, he was Batman incarnate only he killed and he did so gruesomely. Post-Heresy is a different story.

All of the Primarchs are based off of something from history, perhaps a few weren't but I can't think of any.

And check on some of the darker portrayals of Batman, Frank Miller is a start but I have seen much darker versions of Batman every now and then that capture a portion of his, dare I say, twisted psyche.

Some say Bruce Wayne is the costume, not the Batman.

What does Vlad the Impaler have in common with Kurze other than his methods of decapitating his foes?

Also the enter key is your friend, we already have a wall-of-text member here.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

y'know I'm starting to think we need a seperate thread for this debate, but, then again, considering the passion in the arguments here, that might just be asking for a flame war.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> It's quite clear the way the Night-Haunter moves and thinks is based off of Batman, a much darker one who has given up trying to fight crime and realizing that years of putting the same criminals back in Arkham has achieved nothing.


So if I am reading this right you feel he is based off of a darker more sinister version of batman. a darker more sinister version of batman is not batman... at least not one that currently exists. 

That is like basing him off of some character that is based off batman.


> What other dark vigilante? Top Cow's the Darkness?


I have already named some in earlier posts but it really doesn't matter.


> Even if you do come up with some character I haven't thought of, you can't deny skull and wings Kurze being based off of Batman with a few differences of course, namely his passion to maim and kill.


I can... and I have


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I'm going to assume your joking. In reality their are a lot of Batman villains who opperate similary to Batman and kill. Guess what? He usually ends up taking them down and locking them up in Arkham. You need to watch Apocalypse Now. Besides his name coming from one of the main characters, his story and eventual death coming from the actual plot,and his assassin for fuck sake being a play on Col. Kurtz's assassin who is Martin Sheen I guess you could look at that and say batman. In know way was their anything noble about what the Haunter was doing. He inspired justice by viciously and ruthlessly making examples out of his vicitms.LIKE COL. KURTZ DID IN THE FREAKING MOVIE YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVEN'T WATCHED. 

Where in the batcave do you see bodies strung up or Batman scaring anyone BUT criminals. Curze wanted to inspire fear in everyone to keep to the imperial code.Batman only wantst to scare criminals.Kurtz in the movie is inspired by the ruthlessness of the NVA into fighting the war like the monsters they are. Batman would never use the tactics of his enemies to fight crime.Why? Because they he'd be a monster too. Vlad the Impaler made examples of his enemies to inspire fear in his people to follow the law.

None of these qualities exist for Batman. Show me the comic where Batman tells someone that he deserves to die. Show me the image of Batman eviscerating an opponent to send a message that he's not messing around and you better not break the law. The Joker has been murdering and maiming for decades and still Batman won't do anything but lock him up.What do you think the Night Haunter would have done with him? He's not a hero because he's got a name like Night Haunter and goes through the shadows. He's a monster. Deep down he knew it.

You need to read Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver. Look at the part where Curze tells Talos EXACTLY what he thinks of himself and his legion, and that's before they start succumbing to daemons. In the movie Kurtz let Martin Sheen kill him and all the other Green Berets did nothing as they were told not too. Gee,what does that sound like?The movie is almost verbatum when you hear the absurdity Kurtz says about the American fighting tactics and then look at what Curze says about the Imperium.There's nothing in Batman's story that follows the Night Haunters tale at all except for a bat symbol that a lot of people use and they both like shadows.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

+1 ^

Also... you never see Curze with a prepubescent boy in tights!


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Would you imagine the Night Haunter with Robin. "Hey, man I've been looking all over the city for you what's u.......are those.....intestines and heads?" "Holy Shit Night Haunter what have you done?" end scene with piss dripping down the boy wonders leotard.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Kurze believed in natural justice and he overall believed in what is right and wrong, sure overtime he became a lil more corupt but overall he wanted his people to be able to live in peace rather than in fear that they would get raped by violent criminals. HE destrioyed his home planet IMO because he was like "well I saved this place once and you all jacked it up again, so Im just gonna blow the place to hell simply because Im not in the mood to restore order again." Yes he has many similarities to to Batman and well they were both crazy in the head only difference in one was more nuttier than the other. 

Anyway I'm tired of talkin bout the loony bin known as Kurze(even though he and the Night Lords have always been my favorite CSM legion since I first got into 40k, sorry didn't follow the trend of the recent fanboyism) 

I can't help but say Mr. Girlieman though may be known as the poster child of GW's flippin annoying Smurfs he was a stead fast General just can't stand the damn UM and how every noob out there paints their damn Marines blue FOR THE LOVE OF GOD LOOK BEYOND THE DAMN CODEX!!!! Sorry I didn't mean to yell 

Lorgar is whiney lil brat daddy didn't hug enough times and he was tricked into the fiasco of the pilgramage due to Pharon and his idiot of Chappy Erebus(which if you research the name is in Greek mythology,is the son of Chaos and means darkness) also how are you gonna listen to guy like Pharon anyway he has yellow teeth and when he spits all the other WBs say I can't believe its not butter.

Angron is an insane lunatic and am I the only one that thinks Spartacus when I read his origin fluff.

Dorn though I never could stand the guy I can relate to the most becuase he has a personality and was pretty much the only primarch to express that he has fear within him other than that its another GW golden boy second to the Girlieman.

Sanguinie the Linguinie has been fav. for me for long time he was always my second fav next to the Kurze because I always liked the angelic image and a name like Blood Angels is just a cool name. The scream thing is a dumb idea and personally I always though it was cooler when they were just plain old vapiric marines.

Vulkin is a cool char., and this whole Im gonna leave my legion and force them to go on an intergalactic scavenger hunt is just a dumb idea. Raelly what kind of leader does dumb $h!t like that.

Magnus = 40k Jedi master, I don't have much I dislike about this guy except why in the hell does he have horns on his chest that look like freakin nipples.

Russ - If Zack Wylde was in the 41stM this is who he would be, getting drunk and kickin ass. I'm just tired of the SW as well they are gettin way too much hang time and its time for other legion/chapters to get the lime light.

Fulgrim I just can't help but feel sorry for the guy, but then again why didn't he begin to question what is going on when he realized his sword was talking to him in his mind? 

Mortarion heres a badass in his own right, and you gotta feel somewhat bad for him considering his legion was betrayed by a Nurgle worshipping dude that had already agreed to sell out the legion once he got the chance.

Corax - All round badass until he leaves for the warp yelling Nevermore! "pure cheese" and why is it everyone forgets that he weilded a Heavy Bolter with one hand.

ALpha and the Omega - Um can't say much here they may be watching, damn SM ninjas.

Perterabo - If there was never a HH I honestly think this guy and his legion would have become the 41st M's construction workers. I would love to see his char. more fleshed out and how he fell to Chaos beside the proverbeal Dorn got handed the more fun jobs and he got the crappy jobs.

Last but not least I will present GREAT MOMENTS OF STUPIDITY!!! 
Towards the climax of the final battle Horus gave his maniacle laugh, shut down the shields and yelled WHO'S THE BITCH NOW DADDY!!!!! Then the Emperor appears on the bridge what did you say son, Horus you've been a bad monkey NOW GO TO YOUR ROOM!!!


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## Black Steel Feathers (Aug 17, 2011)

I'm a bit of a 40k noob so I'm only going to talk about the ones I know about... Here goes:

Horus- I've read up to Eisenstien of the HH novels, and to be honest I really grew to like him during the first two; he was clearly a charming, funny, intelligent guy who really believed in the Imperium and his father. The relationship he had with the Mournival was one of my favourite parts, showing even superhumans can indulge in a little banter here and there. It made him seem more human than he had before. Ye gods but it broke my heart to watch him fall, especially reading Magnus' desperate efforts to stop it. 
After that he just became a jerk and then pure evil, which is even more upsetting when you know what he was and what he could have continued to be. If the Emperor hadn't screwed up so majorly his job of being a supportive father and perhaps trusted his sons a bit more, and not used them as puppets all the time... 

Magnus- I don't know much about him, but I feel sorry for the guy. Red skin and one eye? He'd always have been an outcast, even without the freaky psychic powers. I think the Emperor was a real jerk to him, humilating him like that and banning psychic powers even when he's the biggist psyker in the Imperium. Okay, I can understand it when I consider the risk of the Warp, but it doesn't seem to me like he shared all of his reasons with Magnus. But what do I know?
As someone who values knowledge and learning, I can see from Magnus' point of view almost. The idea of a planet covered in libraries and full of rare tomes in my idea of heaven; in my opinion, his idea of recording all of this knowledge rather than loosing it was a great one. His biggist failing was that he thought he could control Chaos whereas we- and his father- knew that he couldn't, and this is what lead him to be corrupted. This I think can be more based on ignorance to the true nature of the Warp than anything else, as hardly anyone knew hardly anything about it back then.

Sanguinus- A tragic hero. With wings. What's not to like? I have a bit of a soft spot for him, as his vain sacrifice really touched me; to face up to someone, a brother at that, knowing that you'll die takes a sort of courage I can't even imagine. He used to be Horus' closest brother, so to have them face off like that is both ironic and upsetting; I'm deeply cynical by nature, but even thinking about it makes me a little teary. 
And he's supposed to be really handsome, with wonderful golden armour and this lovely wings- you could say I have a bit of a crush on him, which I know is more than a little bit sad. Also, he has a cool name.

Fulgrim- The idea of Space Marines who actually like art and music is such a cool idea, it's a shame they made them traitors; some Chapters can seem really uncouth and uncultured at times, so it's a relief to have at least one who can appriciate beauty. From what I've read of the HH series, they seemed like an interesting Chapter. Decorated ships, glitterly golden armour and a Primarch who braids his hair are in unique mix- something to offet the more serious and stolid Chapters, like the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists. Let them have their fun, says I- it don't always have to end it Chaos and evil. Also, I have a thing for pretty-boys with long hair, which is also why I like Sangiunus.
Yeah, I admit he was way too arrogant and too much of a perfectionist for his own good, and that's what made him susceptable to Chaos. But having a character who's perfect would make them a Mary-Sue, and nobody likes a Mary-Sue.

Guilliman- From what I've heard, he's a Mary-Sue.


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## Braakbal (Aug 18, 2011)

Klaivex said:


> *13) Magnus*
> *Like:* Super psycher! He is able to kill as well with his mind as he is with his body and his unique appearance sets him apart from his brothers. Another tragic character who did his best to save the Imperium from his (though I think it was the Emp’s for even giving him a legion) mistake at the cost of his men and home world.
> *Dislike:* He was never used properly by the Emp and his powers went to waste. *Cyclopes’ have been done to death if sci-fy/fantasy = A missed opportunity to do something more creative. *


I may be wrong, but I believe in current fluff magnus has one eye and an empty eyesocket.
I'm pretty sure it's a referene to Odin, a member of the pantheon of the old pagan religions in Scandinavia. From Wikipedia:



> Further, in _Ynglinga saga_, Odin is described as venturing to Mímir's Well, near Jötunheimr, the land of the giants; not as Odin, but as Vegtam the Wanderer, clothed in a dark blue cloak and carrying a traveller's staff. To drink from the Well of Wisdom, Odin had to sacrifice his eye (which eye he sacrificed is unclear), symbolizing his willingness to gain the knowledge of the past, present and future. As he drank, he saw all the sorrows and troubles that would fall upon men and the gods. He also saw why the sorrow and troubles had to come to men.
> Mímir accepted Odin's eye and it sits today at the bottom of the Well of Wisdom as a sign that the father of the gods had paid the price for wisdom.



also, Odin was often referred to as the Allfather. As the Rout does with the master of mankind.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

1) Lion El'Jonson
I'm generally neither here nor there with this guy, he's suspicious and if I had to say whether I liked him or disliked him I'd say I dislike him because he looks to be sitting on the fence and always has.

2) Fulgrim
I liked his Charisma before his fall, but I feel he was mentally weak, he looked to be falling before he got the laer blade if I remember the order correctly between Fabius's experiements and his discovery of it.

3) Perturabo 
I liked the fact he was an actual dick before and during the heresy, although he was supposedly friends with Horus and others kind of hasn't come across in the books yet. He just appears to be there because he was written to turn traitor, there's no actual proper face time with him.

4) Jaghati Kahn 
Seems cool, supposedly the best swordsmen of the Primarchs, but his general fluff is lacking.

5) Leman Russ 
He's evolved into something where even his flaws are positives and to me that just stinks of fanboyism from the writers, it's like he can do nothing wrong and what ever he did wrong was in fact right in the end...

6) Rogal Dorn 
My favourite Primarch, he never received a lot of adulation and I always felt he was in the background of the other more prominent Primarchs like Horus Sanguinius, Russ, Johnson and Roboute, despite my impression he was a responsible figure that every other Primarch looked up to and in Pertruabo's case envied. I love the simplicity of his goals, he's there to serve the Emperor and he wants to do it as efficiently as possible, I never took him to be arrogant I just thought he was pragmatic, which lead to him being the man of stone, he was blunt and he'd say what he want thought without fear of repercussions, which some may take to be arrogance. At least the Emperor agreed with me 

7) Konrad Curz 
I don't really want to comment on him, I think it's hard to discuss him as every little event he's ever participated in has been over analysed and can be made to be a positive or negative.

8) Sanguinius 
I like to read more about him from a first person perspective, has a lot of fans but not a lot of face time in the HH series so far. Obviously loved by all, so I'd like to see him with many of his brothers, this gives further rise to the idea of showing the big feast the Primarchs had which included Pertruabo brawling with Dorn.

9) Ferrus Manus 
Interesting character, very very angry, probably the second most angriest after Angron, I think he's been unfairly written about so far, everytime you see him he's getting his ass kicked and I'm hoping he gets a bit more respect, seemed he was simply used as the fall guy for the Fulgrim novel instead of a powerful individual himself.

10) Angron 
Loved the way he was portrayed in after Desh'ea, loved his sense of humour tbh from others bits he's featured in such as the extract from Aurelian. Think he's portrayed far to one dimensional in other works.

11) Robute Guilliman 
He's just not cool, simple as that. The whole Codex thing bugs the hell out of me.

12) Mortarion 
Like Pertruabo I don't get why he turned, he just seems to be there and he's also pretty much a dick if you read Promethean Sun.

13) Magnus 
Meant well but was to arrogant to accept the fact he was doomed as soon as he made the deal with Chaos.

14) Horus 
Loved his character from the first HH books, disliked the way he was corrupted. Reminded me of a cool Roboute, think he was a bit full of himself from the star though due to his closeness to the Emperor.

15) Lorgar 
Daddy issues, like his new determined personae, but he was a cry baby in First Heretic

16) Vulkan 
Pretty badass, like a soft giant. Has the most emotions that would of made him an ideal leader for the Imperium if he hadn't walked away. Think general Primarch had a "soft" side for him, even Ferrus, who was had such a clenched jaw you'd think it was made to be that way, gave him a smile.

17) Corax 
Sucky fluff to his departure but is probably the Primarch whose benefited the most from the new novels, pretty badass, very tactical, has an awesome ability that puts Curze to shame.

18) Alpharius/Omegon 
Liked the idea, although once you get past the fact they are twins and super stealthy then nothing else is really interesting. I've gone off alpha legion a lot recently due to the novel where a single one of them takes out a whole Chapter...


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> 18) Alpharius/Omegon
> Liked the idea, although once you get past the fact they are twins and super stealthy then nothing else is really interesting. I've gone off alpha legion a lot recently due to the novel where a single one of them takes out a whole Chapter...


Are you fine with a missile taking out almost the entirety of the Crimson Fists chapter?

If so then years of meticulous, nigh-perfect planning should not be an issue >.<


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Are you fine with a missile taking out almost the entirety of the Crimson Fists chapter?
> 
> If so then years of meticulous, nigh-perfect planning should not be an issue >.<


Yes I am because the shields where down so they could fire the missile and the missile burrowed through the ground and detonated in the armoury and powering systems which levelled half the mountain. Have you read the book yet?

The difference is, this is one mistake which is explained fully in the book, the story with the Crimson Consuls is not explained well at all and flaws are a lot more acceptable than something with so many possible ways of going wrong actually happening without the flaw. The Alpha Legion are not the best Marines, every other legion has flaws, but supposedly a single marine can take out an entire chapter. That's just not right.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Black Steel Feathers said:


> As someone who values knowledge and learning, I can see from Magnus' point of view almost. The idea of a planet covered in libraries and full of rare tomes in my idea of heaven; in my opinion, his idea of recording all of this knowledge rather than loosing it was a great one.


Halelujah soul sister! You might wanna look into the Mentors and Blood Ravens, my personal favorite, chapters for a similar outlook. (and Magnus being the BR primarch is still bullshit in IMHO so anyone reading this, dont bring it up unless you wanna hijack the thread).



Black Steel Feathers said:


> Fulgrim- The idea of Space Marines who actually like art and music is such a cool idea, it's a shame they made them traitors; some Chapters can seem really uncouth and uncultured at times, so it's a relief to have at least one who can appriciate beauty.


Part of why I love the Blood Angels, they got a thing for art too.



Black Steel Feathers said:


> Also, I have a thing for pretty-boys with long hair, which is also why I like Sangiunus.




*waggles his eyebrows and flicks his long luxiriant mane of brown hair* :biggrin:



Black Steel Feathers said:


> Guilliman- From what I've heard, he's a Mary-Sue.


Which is why I liked the character interp that Apologist on Warseer used. Since no one bothered to follow the link I'll post it here. Original post made Anguipipes by on the Black Library forum. Thread long since deleted since GW likes to destroy anything that can make Guilliman likeable.

the rest, threadmined from Bolter and Chainsword and made by Apologist:

At this point, I also wanted to put a nod towards *Anguipes* on the Black Library forum. He came up with this theory, and I absolutely love it. Anguipes did a load of work that translated the tarot and starsigns into their respective Primarchs. He theorised Roboute Guilliman was The Chariot (and Cancer), and it's a really great model. It also gave me some good ideas for the 'feel' of the piece. Poached from his site:

_Character:
Honourable and willing to fight for what he believes, but only what he believes. He is never violent for the sake of it, nor will he fight for a cause he does not believe in.

He will be very faithful to his ideals and obedient to whatever authorities he acknowledges as his superiors. However he might become overly reliant on the security and certainty this brings, and stop showing initiative or originality. While he is highly conservative, he is not necessarily a traditionalist. Unlike the Hierophant [Lorgar], he understands the need for change and renewal to meet new conditions.

A dual nature may be in evidence. On the outside he may appear thick-skinned, unemotional and obstinate, while underneath he is far more sensitive, even insecure. At all times he will be highly intelligent, though he will apply this in a shrewd and cautious manner. 

Values both company and privacy, but on his own terms. This may get him a reputation for being moody. Private insecurity and possible withdrawal from other's affairs may lead to jealousy when he becomes aware of their success.

The Chariot [Guilliman] forms a trio with Death [Mortarion] and the Moon [Konrad Curze], focused on the need for fundamental changes. The Moon is the need for change, Death the decay or destruction of old structures, and the Chariot is the establisher of new ways (which in turn will become obsolete and decay). This trio in turn represents three aspects of the personality of the Hanged Man [Sanguinius].

At best, honourable, obediant, loyal, valourous, energetic, protective and sympathetic.

At worst, moody, touchy, either withdrawn, overdependent or both, jealous, unwilling to take orders from equals or inferiors, and procrastinating. _


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## Rinso (Sep 2, 2011)

The Traitors


- Horus.
The quintessential prodigy turned wrong. A classic story, true, but told and seen a million times before. 
I don’t find him particularly enticing, though he can be likable. Still, I think that most of the other Traitor Primarchs are more intriguing. 


- Lorgar.
I really like the concept behind him - pious and even zealous, in need to worship something - or anything. And the Word Bearers are probably my favorite Traitor Legion to boot. 


- Angron.
I kinda felt bad for him when I learned the way the Emperor recruited him. You have to admit, that was a dick move. He could have saved his comrades too. After such a horrible start, it wasn't a surprise that Angron turned to Chaos and I don't think anyone could honestly blame him. The Emperor probably shouldn't be gifted with a cup saying "world’s greatest dad".


- Magnus.
Read the last sentence above.
Similar to Angron, I sympathize and feel bad for the guy. He tried to do the right thing and was betrayed by the person heloved and trusted. Nice job, Emperor 


- Fulgrim.
Interesting personality and concept, both for him and his legion. The pursuit of perfection... it apparently leads to another dimension full of mutation, demonic possession and torture 


- Perturabo.
I think he's a badass. Cold, driven by logic and reason, specialist in seige warfare. The way he handed the Imperial Fists their asses during the Iron Cage Accident is wonderful. 


- Alpharius & Omegon.
Very cool concept. Deciet, misdirection, circles within circles of intrigue and espionage. The Alpha Legion is definately a force to be reckoned with. But I don’t have any strong opinion about its Primarch/s in particular. 


- Konrad Curze.
I don't really have an opinion. I know next to nothing about the guy. Only that he was a scary dude and his legion was kinda sinister even before the Heresy. 


- Mortarion.
Cool look, cool legion, cool patron with cool powers. Other than that, I don't have much of an opinion about him. 



The Loyalists:


- The Lion.
I have a soft spot for the Dark Angels. I love their secrecy and their determination. 
I also enjoy the idea that Lion El'Jonson may have been on the fence during the final hours of the Hersey and that's why he deliberately took his time, to see who was going to win. It would make everything that happened to his legion later so wonderfully ironic. 
Besides, I like how he smacked Russ. He had it coming. 


- Rogal Dorn.
I like him. Staunch, dignified, and not as removed from normal human emotions as some of his brothers. 


- Vulkan.
I think it’s cool to have a legion and a Primarch who is genuinely concerned for the regular humans. Some of the others are just hungry for glory and honor, and others, while well-intentioned, are a bit removed from the normal humanity because of their inherited superiority. It’s refsreshing to see someone as genuinely good as Vulkan and his Salamanders. 


- Sanguinius.
A goody two-shoes and a bit of a drama queen in my view.


- Roboute Guilliman.
Gah, I hate this name. I keep reading it as Robot Gulliver. 
Other than that, does he even has a personality? 


- Leman Russ.
A viking in space, what else can you say? Boisterous, brave, enjoying battle... the guy is a bit of a walking cliché, isn’t he? With that in mind, he’s still kinda cool. 


- Jaghatai Khan.
Similar to Russ - he’s what, Genghiz Khan in space? Okay... Other than this? 


Ferrus Manus.
- So he’s got metal arms. Nice. 


- Croax.
No opinion. Nevermore.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> Halelujah soul sister! You might wanna look into the Mentors and Blood Ravens, my personal favorite, chapters for a similar outlook. (and *Magnus being the BR primarch is still bullshit in IMHO so anyone reading this, dont bring it up unless you wanna hijack the thread*).


Yep it maybe bullshit but it's true


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## Black Steel Feathers (Aug 17, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Yep it maybe bullshit but it's true


Don't. Just, y'know, don't.

Please.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

hehe just pulling his leg


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> hehe just pulling his leg


Seriously dude, I get enough of this as the only Blood Ravens player at my FLGS, in between the arguments of how my army fluff doesnt matter since its not canaon and came from a videogame. If you REALLLY wanna debate this, I will start a thread to do it in.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Nah honestly I was kidding, I know how annoying the fluff can be in regards to BRs.


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## Black Steel Feathers (Aug 17, 2011)

It's interesting that I'm not the one who liked Horus in the first two HH books- before I read them I just thought he'd be a jerk, and I sort of assumed everyone else would feel the same. Thinking Horus was a jerk, that is.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Nah honestly I was kidding, I know how annoying the fluff can be in regards to BRs.


Given half a chance by Relic and Black Library I would HAPPILY write a series of novels for them to invalidate Goto's, just see if I wouldnt... >.>


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## Minizke1 (Feb 7, 2010)

Corax is my favorite primarch of all, and I actually disagree on the departing speech bit. Edgar Allan Poe is a great poet, so I thought that was a great little reference. My least favorite primarch is Sanguinius. Wings, wings, yadda yadda yadda, HE HAS NIPPLE RINGS ON HIS ARMOR.


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## Rinso (Sep 2, 2011)

Black Steel Feathers said:


> It's interesting that I'm not the one who liked Horus in the first two HH books- before I read them I just thought he'd be a jerk, and I sort of assumed everyone else would feel the same. Thinking Horus was a jerk, that is.


Yeah, I actually find him quite likeable in the first HH books. Before I began reading them I thought he'd be dull and boring, but he's quite the contrary.


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## papa nurgle (Jan 11, 2010)

i would have to say Corax and Vulkan are my favorite. there is an element of mystique about them. they both possessed what the other primarchs never understood; a care for and an understanding of the concept of life. they were not concerned with what method would make the biggest explosion or feed some deep-seeded daddy issues (Lorgar cough cough). they simply employed the method that warranted the desired result with minimal casualties. they were independent and, as demonstrated by their leave of the imperium due to the preservation of relative peace, are able to put aside their pride in order to do what is right and necessary.

i feel much better now:grin:


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> +1 ^
> 
> Also... you never see Curze with a prepubescent boy in tights!


My God, I would love to see see Aaron Dembski-Bowden tackle a satirical short story on Curze featuring just that.

Pre-Heresy Night Lord Scouts!


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

*1. Lion El'Jonson:*

I like the Lion. I really do. Even though he was initially left to his own devices in a Death World, "Descent of Angels" makes it clear that he wants to be a good guy: on the macro level, he tries to do right by the Calibanites in destroying the Beasts; on the micro level, despite being a super-genius demigod, he tries to have a good sense of humor and cares for those under him.

Beyond that, he's tactically and strategically brilliant but he isn't arrogant about it. He doesn't have this insufferable ego - the Haunter taunts him with insinuations that his loyalty will be questioned, but that doesn't even phase the Lion. Sure, Horus worries about how the Lion's gunning for him, but that's after he takes the turn toward megalomania and Chaos-driven insanity. If anything, the Lion's willingness to befriend Konrad Curze when hardly anyone else would speaks volumes.

His only real flaw seems to be that while it takes a lot to anger him, once he does get angry... he stays angry. See Leman Russ, for example: once you start a pointless brawl with the Lion, don't expect for it to end on friendly terms... _someone's gonna need to be knocked out._

*3. Fulgrim:*

There are parts of Fulgrim I like a lot. Despite all the high society airs he puts on, his origins are those of a hard-working, blue-collar, caring and conscientious individual. And when he DID become high society, it was initially more about celebrating the finest achievements of Mankind: the arts, the academia, etc.

Still, he didn't lose his core being. His friendship with Ferrus Manus, a gruff, grounded individual if ever there was one, reflects that.

Come to think of it, there's very little not to like about Fulgrim. His negative traits really come to play only after he is corrupted by a Daemonic artifact.

*4. Perturabo:*

I can't say there's much I like about the Primarch of the Iron Warriors. Distrustful, aloof, and easily driven to anger by pointless rivalries, he doesn't strike me as grand or heroic as many other Primarchs do. His chief complaint (other than Dorn daring to surmise that he might just be able to withstand one of his sieges) seems to be a circular argument. That is, I feel pretty certain that if Perturabo wasn't such a dick and thereby moulding so many of his officers to be like him, then so many worlds wouldn't have turned against the garrisons he left there.

*5. Jaghatai Khan:*

I have to reserve comment until more is revealed about him. Otherwise, I have a hard time getting excited about a literal knock-off of a real-life Mongol warlord.

*6. Leman Russ:*

I think Dan Abnett did a fine job of re-imagining Russ for the better, but I still have a hard time liking him. At the end of the day, the newer, positive traits (smarter, cunning, pragmatic, genuinely wishing for peace between himself and Magnus) have to be balanced off with his negative ones. It might not be fair, but the new iteration of Russ is (like Curze or Angron) much more representative of the horrors the Imperium can unleash when "Compliance Goes Wrong."

*7. Rogal Dorn:*

There are two sides to Rogal Dorn. The one in "The Lightning Tower" I like. It's a wise, restrained, thoughtful Rogal Dorn who loves his father, cares for the Imperium, and genuinely hopes for the best for his race. And then there's the "Flight of the Eisenstein" Rogal Dorn, who goes off on rants and beats people who bring him bad news (compare the cool and collected Lion when he brings the bad news).

I hope we'll see more of the former, and less of the latter.

*8. Konrad Curze/the Night Haunter:*

Mixed feelings. Simon Spurrier and Aaron Dembski-Bowden both did a fine job of bringing forth Curze's "nobler" qualities enough so that I didn't always think "sociopathic, delusional, mass murdering terrorist" when I read about him.

But... at the end of the day... that's what he was. He built a palace out of corpses and living human beings. His logic demanded the worst kind of abuse in order to achieve a "peace" that at least one other sibling of his had demonstrated could be achieved without massacres, etc.

*9. Sanguinius:*

I know I'm supposed to like Sanguinius, but I have a hard time doing so. I think it's mostly due to the fact that his wings are such a freaking telegraphed memo: "He's an angel--you should like him!" Furthermore, he's such a straight shooter. He's humble, he's got brotherly love, he's a good mentor and advisor, blah, blah. If he's all that and then some, then Horus is right. He should have been Warmaster. But he isn't. So I hope there's something interesting about him that justifies that decision more than "he was picked up later on the trip".

*10. Ferrus Manus:*

Honestly, he bores me. He does the "I'm a great smith" thing... like Fulgrim... but with a less interesting concept. He's gruff. He's angry. He's elemental. He's tempestuous. Whatever. He's just gruff and angry.

Hopefully we'll see more one day that makes him more than just a colossal tactical jackass.

*12. Angron:*

He's getting more interesting, I suppose, and that's good. I still need to see more, though. The reason why Curze is more interesting is because we've seen more of the Haunter's perspective, flawed as it may be. Angron, though, remains sympathetic only because of his plight as described to us. I can't wait to see more from the angles of his warrior cult, or his relationships with those who share in it, and how these lead to Chaos worship. I really, really hope it's not as lame as "Angron was a bloody warrior, and Khorne just automatically appealed to him on the basis of killing and blood-letting."

*13. Guilliman:*

The more Guilliman is revealed to us, the more I feel like I'm being asked to like Caesar Augustus, albeit with a streak of compassion for his warriors.

I don't know. Too much of his background is obscured, save for the more generic kind of fluff that doesn't do a good enough job of not paralleling a historical figure. I did find the "Age of Darkness" twist to be interesting, though. I guess we all spent so much time arguing whether the Lion was on the fence that none of us would have guessed it was Guilliman that pulled that stunt. Well done, Black Library and GW, for distracting us with Fallen who never had very plausible arguments, and keeping us from questioning just why the Ultramarines couldn't make it to Terra.

I kind of hope that, just as the occasional story gives us a glimpse of Horus' development and strategy, so will we also now get occasional glimpses of Guilliman's own plans and impressions on what is happening.

*14. Mortarion:*

Never liked him. Not when we just had the Index Astartes articles, and not now. It's going to take some excellent writing and eyebrow-raising revelations for me to appreciate him or empathize with him more as a character.

*15. Magnus:*

Magnus is enjoyable because he's a good, tragic character. He ultimately means well, but he suffers from hubris. He thinks he knows best, even when those he knows better than he are telling him otherwise. He is gregarious, intelligent, idealistic, a visionary, and even kind... but lurking behind all that is also a dark side. He can be cruel, and greedy, and overly ambitious.

His biggest flaw in terms of character development, I think, is his switch to Horus' camp. His fall to Tzeentch I get. He was given a Devil's Deal and he accepted it in order to survive. But Horus? Magnus knew that his brother was being suckered by powerful forces before Russ came a-knocking. I think I would have bought that one a little more had Magnus had some soliloquy along the lines of "Well, if I don't join them and they beat the Emperor, how long before they come after me?" next to a qualifier wherein he tries to get Horus off the Chaos Crack while he's at it.

*16. Horus:*

Not much to say here. Horus is probably a little too perfect for me to enjoy, and lacks any amplifying traits, etc., that would make him interesting. If anything, it was his interactions with his Mournival that I really enjoyed.

*17. Lorgar:*

I always loathed Lorgar and his whining excuses, much like I loathed Perturabo for the same reasons.

The beginning of "The First Heretic" didn't do much to change my mind. Dembski-Bowden did an admirable job of trying to make more sense of his complaints, but I still didn't buy into the concept. That having been said, the developing Lorgar was far more interesting. As his voyage of self-discovery went on, I found myself enjoying the character more and more. I still didn't identify with his core reasoning, but I liked what I saw in terms of his embrace of Chaos and his (misguided) idealism about a union between the Gods and Man.

His concern for Fulgrim, and his vocal opposition to the servile condition his possession had reduced him to also served as an interesting contrast. I wonder, if corruption and damnation are achieved gradually and through good intentions, what Lorgar's reaction to his Legion's ethos and practices in the 41st millennium would have been? Perhaps the reason he keeps himself locked up is precisely because he can't stand what he achieved?

Here's hoping to more of that...

*18. Vulkan:*

See Ferrus Manus. Minus the gruffness and quick temper. Tabula rasa, and therefore I can't really comment.

*19. Corax:*

I was never thrilled about Corax for the same reason I wasn't thrilled about Khan. He just struck me as a blatant take on a real-world concept.

I will withhold comment until "Deliverance Lost" comes out, I guess.

*20. Alpharius and Omegon:*

Easily one of the biggest twists to the established Primarch lore. While I'm not one for subterfuge and secrecy, I felt that their surprise (the twins concept) was worth the trouble... and I also am very thankful for the twist of the two still being ultimately loyal to the Emperor. What that does is open up an even bigger mystery as to what happened to them during the Scouring, and what - if any - role they had in their Legion becoming Chaos worshippers.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Minizke1 said:


> Corax is my favorite primarch of all, and I actually disagree on the departing speech bit. Edgar Allan Poe is a great poet, so I thought that was a great little reference. My least favorite primarch is Sanguinius. Wings, wings, yadda yadda yadda, HE HAS NIPPLE RINGS ON HIS ARMOR.


Erm Sanguinius doesn't.....



Phoebus said:


> *9. Sanguinius:*
> 
> I know I'm supposed to like Sanguinius, but I have a hard time doing so. I think it's mostly due to the fact that his wings are such a freaking telegraphed memo: "He's an angel--you should like him!" Furthermore, he's such a straight shooter. He's humble, he's got brotherly love, he's a good mentor and advisor, blah, blah. If he's all that and then some, then Horus is right. He should have been Warmaster. But he isn't. So I hope there's something interesting about him that justifies that decision more than "he was picked up later on the trip".


The reason used to be that Sanguinius occasionally flips his shit. He embodies all the aspects of the Emperor in a single Primarch which includes his anger. The Blood Rage is Sanguinius's flaw where he becomes insanely angry and just murderfucks the shit out of people.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Not that I subscribe to the "aspects of the Emperor" bit in a literal sense, but it would be great if that was the case. I just don't ever recall Sanguinius going berserker.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Not that I subscribe to the "aspects of the Emperor" bit in a literal sense, but it would be great if that was the case. I just don't ever recall Sanguinius going berserker.


The main one I can remember is from his origin story when he was in the Blood tribe. They got attacked mutants and Sanguinius flipped out and murdered a hundred or so of them when he felt his friends were in danger. That's from the latest codex Origin story and it does call it a blood-rage that he flew into.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

So a being created for war got angry because his friends were in danger?

Sanguinius is not a berserker, his mere presence calmed his ruthless legion.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I didn't say he was, I said that he sometimes flips out and murderfucks people to death, which he does. It specifically mentions how angry he was when he flew into a Blood Rage. He's not a Berserker like Angron he just occasionally gets very very angry. It's the root of the Blood Angels flaw and why when Sanguinius got his legs broken then rest of the chapter flipped out and murdered all the cultists in on an entire planet in a blind rage.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I don't see it as anything other than an intense love for their Primarch.

But if others agree with you then GW has failed. We have far too many 'angry/hulk-smash' legions as it is.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Aramoro said:


> I didn't say he was, I said that he sometimes flips out and murderfucks people to death, which he does. It specifically mentions how angry he was when he flew into a Blood Rage. He's not a Berserker like Angron he just occasionally gets very very angry. It's the root of the Blood Angels flaw and why when Sanguinius got his legs broken then rest of the chapter flipped out and murdered all the cultists in on an entire planet in a blind rage.


I'd just personally say that was because they had a far greater love of their primarch than other leigons, being insanely overprotective of him. the Black Rage, has nothing to do with traits of Sanguinus, other than the fact that the Blood Angels were so devoted to him.

In case you didn't know, the actual effects of the Black Rage arent just a ton of testosterone flooding their bodies causing them to flip their shit, no, it's worse. The Black Rage is actually the psychic imprint of Sanguinus' murder.

The reason they go loco is because when the Black Rage settles in, they are actually forced to watch in their mind's eye as their Primarch is murdered, over and over again, then, after enough time, the begin to BELEIVE they are Sanguinus at the Seige of Terra. For a simple analouge, imagine if say, your wife, sister, or your mother, was raped and murdered before your very eyes, then, someone tapes the murder and forces you to watch it over and over again, don't you think YOU would go a bit nuts with fury?

tl;dr, Horus killed their Primarch so hard they feel it 10,000 years later.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> I'd just personally say that was because they had a far greater love of their primarch than other leigons, being insanely overprotective of him. the Black Rage, has nothing to do with traits of Sanguinus, other than the fact that the Blood Angels were so devoted to him.


They were not suffering from the Black Rage at that point, as Sanguinus wasn't dead. They were having a perfectly normal flip out, or perhaps Blood Rage as it's described. The Red Thirst seems to cause this, which is unrelated to the Black Rage.



> The Blood Angels went berserk and in their mania they smashed the daemons asunder, all but annihilating the daemonic horde of Signus Prime. As the planet was cleansed the rage of the Blood Angels subsided.


This was pre-Black Rage days. Going berserk is not a useful trait for a solider, it is not normal behaviour. In fact being angry is a mark disadvantage is almost all situations. 




> In case you didn't know, the actual effects of the Black Rage arent just a ton of testosterone flooding their bodies causing them to flip their shit, no, it's worse. The Black Rage is actually the psychic imprint of Sanguinus' murder.


You are a font of knowledge. We're a little far into this thread for some trite 'In case you didn't knows' 

Things we know, Sanguinus has been known to fly into a Blood Rage when he gets angry, Blood Angels also do this when they get angry (this is not the Black Rage), The Sanguinor is suggested to be the Noble parts of Sanguinus that kept his darkness in check that was lost to the Blood Angels when he died. So we surely have to presume the darkness in Sanguinus was his Blood rages perhaps which is why Blood Angels suffer from it now to a much greater extent than he ever did.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Aramoro said:


> They were not suffering from the Black Rage at that point, as Sanguinus wasn't dead. They were having a perfectly normal flip out, or perhaps Blood Rage as it's described. The Red Thirst seems to cause this, which is unrelated to the Black Rage.


Wrong, the codex specifically stipulates that the Red Thirst is the final stage of the Black Rage, wherein they are so disconnected from reality that they see everyone and everything as a threat and must be locked in the tower of the lost for their, and other's protection.



Aramoro said:


> This was pre-Black Rage days. Going berserk is not a useful trait for a solider, it is not normal behaviour. In fact being angry is a mark disadvantage is almost all situations.


Depends on how angry, I'll agree, losing control or having it coulour your descisions is a disadvantage, but a little bit of hate never hurt a soldier faced with an implacable enemy.



Aramoro said:


> You are a font of knowledge. We're a little far into this thread for some trite 'In case you didn't knows'


Um... thanks? It was an attempt to be polite, one that eveidently failed...



Aramoro said:


> Things we know, Sanguinus has been known to fly into a Blood Rage when he gets angry, Blood Angels also do this when they get angry (this is not the Black Rage),


I'll beleive you if you can point out where you found this.



Aramoro said:


> The Sanguinor is suggested to be the Noble parts of Sanguinus that kept his darkness in check that was lost to the Blood Angels when he died.


That's one interpretation, they also say that he's the founder of the Sanguinary Guard, a ghost, a warp entity, or a revived Sanguinus.



Aramoro said:


> So we surely have to presume the darkness in Sanguinus was his Blood rages perhaps which is why Blood Angels suffer from it now to a much greater extent than he ever did.


Why?


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> Wrong, the codex specifically stipulates that the Red Thirst is the final stage of the Black Rage, wherein they are so disconnected from reality that they see everyone and everything as a threat and must be locked in the tower of the lost for their, and other's protection.


Can you give me the page number of where it states that? Page 13 talks about the Red Thirst. It is stated that all Blood Angels suffer from the Red Thirst, that they lose control to it temporarily then recover, some fall completely to it and get locked in a tower. 

The Black Rage is also described there, and that is the Psychic backlash makes them go crazy, no mention of the Red Thirst at all. It could be there are some contradictory statements in the Codex though.





> I'll beleive you if you can point out where you found this.


In the Codex story about Sangiunius it talks about the first time the tribe see him angry, that he falls into a Blood-Rage and kills over a hundred mutants. Then the Betrayal of Sangiunius story where he first fights Ka'bandha and gets his legs broken. Now at this point there is no such thing as the Black Rage as Sangiunius is still very much alive. The Chapter flips out and it states that they went berserk. 




> That's one interpretation, they also say that he's the founder of the Sanguinary Guard, a ghost, a warp entity, or a revived Sanguinus.


It doesn't really matter who the Sangiunor is in this case, just that they came up with that explanation. It means they believe that Sanguinius had darkness in him and that the Chapter has lost the noble aspects of his character to an extent. They would never have come up with that theory had that not been the case.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

Learning more about Vulkan through the Tome of Fire series, as well as various short stories, I really feel as though Vulkan was one of the better Pimarchs. During my last deployment my buddies and I used to joke around about which Primarch we'd want to have in charge of our platoon, and it always came down to either Sanguinius or Vulkan. Out of all the Primarchs, they seemed to be the only ones who had decent 'people skills' on top of their combat ability (and by people skills, I mean they didn't fall to Chaos, freak out when they weren't promoted to Warmaster, and cared about people other then those under their direct command)


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Looking at Codex: Blood Angels, I don't think it supports the assertion that Sanguinius "flipped out" or what have you throughout his career.

Now, mind you, it does say this:

_"When a wandering band of mutants surprised the tribe, Sanguinius slew them all, although they numbered over a hundred. This was the first time the members of the Blood had ever seen him truly angry, for he felt his comrades' lives were in danger. When the blood-rage overtook him, Sanguinius was indeed terrible to behold ..."_

The main thing to remember, though, is that this is Sanguinius' first truly violent event - aside from an episode of self-defense against a monstrous scorpion, when he was but a baby. It's not indicative of what he was like as an adult and as a Primarch. If anything, earlier text in the same document states the opposite:

_"Driven by fiery temperament, the Blood Angels swiftly earned a fearsome reputation as shock troops, ... the Blood Angels were never as ferocious as the World Eaters, for the wise influence of Sanguinius tempered their bloodlust.

Though he was yet in the early days of his legend, Sanguinius was thought to be the noblest of the Primarchs ... Whilst many of his brothers fought the Great Crusade solely out of the joy of battle, Sanguinius fought to secure the golden era of peace and prosperity which would surely follow."_

The same text describes Sanguinius as a visionary, wise, prophetic, and idealist looking forward to an era of peace and prosperity, etc. It says nothing about blood-rages (especially not with capital letters, and this is a key point since Red Thirst and Black Rage are presented thusly). If anything, again, it paints the opposite picture of him.

Now, I do think it's implied enough (if not outright clear) that the earliest vestiges of the Blood Thirst and the potential for the Black Rage were already in place before Sanguinius' death. That is, the Primarch's presence was a powerful enough force to suppress the dormant Flaw (the Red Thirst), and his death was the catalyst of the Black Rage. Consider:

_"The Blood Angels were amongst the first Space Marines to adopt Roboute Guilliman's Codex Astartes. ... In addition, the onset of the Flaw was slowly making its presence felt, further muddying the Legion's future.
...
This Chapter, once the most golden and blessed of all the Chapters, ..."_

Taken with the text stating Sanguinius suppressed his warriors' blood-lust and fiery temperaments, I think it's fair to state that the Flaw was kept in check while the Primarch was around. When he died, the Red Thirst, the "destructive yearning, [the] battle fury and blood-hunger that must be held in abeyance in every waking moment" grew in intensity and was without a check. His murder, in conjunction with his psychic qualities and his genetic/blood link to the Blood Angels led to the Black Rage.

So, in conclusion:

1. Sanguinius was both flawed and pure at the same time. Marred by mutation and the seed of the Flaw (Red Thirst, Black Rage), but pure because despite these defects he nonetheless mastered himself and his warriors and devoted himself to a vision of peace and well-being for Humanity.
2. Either the Flaw itself or just the seed of the Flaw was present in the Blood Angels since they were united with their Primarch and the Emperor performed "the complex
operation that would extract the gene-seed from Sanguinius' genetic codes [and implanted into] the warriors of the Blood Angels Legion. Sanguinius was able to control their condition, though - perhaps thanks to the same psychic link that, after his murder, led to the Black Rage. A bit of irony, that.
3. Once Sanguinius died, the Flaw manifested in full. The Blood Angels went from having fiery temperaments and blood-lusts in battle that were tempered by their Primarch to the actual cases of the Red Thirst and Black Rage.
4. Though the Red Thirst and the Black Rage are both part of the Flaw, it would appear that the two are not otherwise interconnected. The former appears to be an exaggeration of pre-existing conditions following the reunion of Primarch with Legion (and the infusion of his genetic code into theirs), while the latter is directly attributable to the Primarch's death.

Cheers,
P.


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

My take on some of the Primarchs I'm fond of.

*Horus*

I really, really like Horus. As others have said previously, I felt before reading the Horus Heresy novels he was just going to be some power-hungry jerk and there wasn't much to him. How wrong I was. The novels portrayed him in a totally different light, one I was glad to see him in. This being who is literally akin to a God among Gods, the one with the drive and ambition that the Emperor chose _him_ out of all the others... wow. When you consider that, Horus really was the brightest and best. 

I also particularly liked his aspects of humanity that showed through - the fact that at the beginning, he does doubt himself at times. How he relies on his friends (if you can call them that?) in the Mournival for advice sometimes, yet once his mind is made up it will not be swayed. I found him to be a great diplomat, warrior without peer, fantastic leader and generally all-round pretty awesome guy. Which makes his loss all the more tragic.

He genuinely wanted to unite the lost parts of Mankind; when he meets the Interex at the end of Horus Rising he is devestated at the violence and it shouting and fighting against his own troops advice to try and stay to sort it out. Then this seems to change him, the loss of the Interex seems to harden him into a much less humane being, which is the beginning of the end for him.


*Fulgrim*

I both like and dislike Fulgrim greatly. I find his story to be tragic and interesting, but I also found him to be a real pompous &^%@! I appreciate art and culture, but Fulgrim had such a hipster/stuck up attitude that really put me off him (I can't stand those people in real life). I do like his ideal to become the best, but his idea of perfection is too far, too self-aggrandising and his pride is his worst aspect. I relate to him very little, but when he kills his best-friend and realises what he's done, I do feel for him. That however is the only time I ever really did. He was seduced by Chaos slowly, but fails to see it ever and at all. For a being such as a Primarch, I can't help but feel he should've turned around one day and seen through all the crap that had engulfed him and his ship and realised it was far too much excess, but no, he didn't. He was too weak, and when he realised what he had done, he gave himself up to a daemon...smooth. I really feel he got what he deserved. 


*Sanguinius*

Again, I both like and dislike. What puts me off him so much is the idea he has wings. Seriously. It just feels very cheap to me, a tool to make him more 'angelic' by his appearance rather than his actions or personality. Sure, I really like the whole angels theme and the Blood Angels are pretty cool, but giving him actual wings really irks me. Also, similar to Fulgrim, is the idea he is perfect - Fulgrim wasn't but sought to be, were as I am just told from lore and fluff that Sanguinius was pretty much perfect. Why? He doesn't seem to come across as such in the Blood Angels Codex, he seems to me to be more like Horus - A great being of almost unquestionable morals and abilities - but other fluff doesn't do him justice.

I do like the whole rage thing, thats pretty cool, and it shows how angry and devestated he must have been after Horus' betrayal. I think in future he could grow to be one of my favourites if there are some works to do him justice. Until then, he's interesting, but a flawed shallow concept to me.

And please, please... lose the wings.


*Angron*

Similar to Sanguinius, a flawed concept that could be so much more. We know he's angry, and he was raised on a barbarian world, and he likes axes... is there anything more? Not really. I remember reading he had a form of lobotomy with some implants put in to make him a more incredible, angry, focussed fighter, but other than that he's just really pissed. 

This doesn't have to be the case.

For those of you that has watched Rome, Spartacus (Starz version) or any other types of Gladitorial combat, its brutal, violent but also so so interesting. The Romans truly felt it was honour to fight in the arena, a place were debts could be settled and the outcome was the be-all end-all, and the politics that went with it was fantastic and very interesting. So I'd love to hear more about Angron and his homeworld. Why did he join Horus? I know it's because Horus 'let him off his leash' and allowed him to fight, main and murder unlike the Emperor wanted him to, but surely there's something more. Did he see it as his honour to fight alongside his brother? How does he view The Emperor? What did his martial pride dictate? Does, like most gladiators, have any view of honour, and if so, how important was it to him?

I really feel like Angron is a great concept to be explored, and with the right writer, he could become something very special. A gladiator of martial pride and honour born into a world were only the strongest survive; a combination of survival instincts and morals, the warrior with a code who fell from grace due to his biggest flaw, his unquenchable rage and appetite for destruction. That's the sort of Angron I'd like to see. Someone who isn't just really really mad and really really boring. Plus, the World Eater's are an awesome legion.


*Magnus*

Another tragic figure (I sense a theme here...haha) who tried to do his best, but failed and was cast out. He thought he knew more than he did, and like a child he stumbled around and ended up causing all kinds of crap, playing with fire and then being told off for it. Of course, thats a metaphor, because by told off I mean cast out and forced to join the side he originally rallied against in the biggest civil war ever that claimed billions of lives, but you get the jist.

What I like is he was willing to do what needed to be done. The Ends don't always justify the means, but sometimes, they have to because there's no choice. Magnus knew he shouldn't mess with the warp, that he'd been forbidden, but how else was he to reach Horus? And you know what, he almost saved him. Almost. No one else came close, the Emperor, in all his might and glory and intelligence knew nothing about what was going on (you're seeing why I'm a traitor marine follower now  ) and then remanded his only son who tried to do something.

Magnus' single, desperate act to save his brother, and later warn his father, will always give him a high place of respect in my books. I feel since the Heresy he's become obsessed with knowledge and has been ensnared by Tzeentch, but once upon a time he was the only one to truly take a stand, doing what wrong in order to do something right. And he was punished for taking a stand.

How can anyone argue our crusade against the false Emperor is wrong... mwhaha.


*Lorgar*

The bad-boy, the one who kick started it all. (I say Lorgar, because he was the first Primarch Erebus swayed. Would Erebus have swayed Horus? Doubtful, obviously, thats why he needed the Anatheme) I like his major spiritual theme, the idea of forbidden knowledge and the Dark Gods. He's generally the bad-ass one to me, the one who plays with fire because he actually likes it, not out of some curiosity. Moreover, since the Heresy he's been locked away meditating while the Word Bearer's actually function like a real legion still and not a warband. Awesome stuff.


*Lion El'Jonson*

I like the Lion. Some do, others don't. I'm a fan of the idea 'doing what needs to be done' and surviving on a death world, well, you certainly do what you gotta to survive. Strong of mind and body, he's a pretty awesome character which makes the Dark Angel's half-rebellion all the more interesting. For those of you that have read the Horus Heresy novels about the DA's, it raises the question of who betrayed who? One question to which I have not formed an answer, but I am leaning more towards the idea that Lion El'Jonson was right to send away Luther, but why all of the other Caliban troops to? That was a mistake. He seemed to cast away all ties to his homeworld after he felt Luther betrayed him, even though he somewhat redeemed himself at the last second.

One of Primarch's who has a real code of honour, Lion El'Jonson is one of the few who has a zero-tolerance policy to anything that goes against the Emperor. While I may not agree with his views, his actions and morals are something I respect greatly. Top notch stuff.


*Konrad Curze*

My joint favourite Primarch. I know he's become much more popular since the Soul Hunter/Blood Reaver novels (no wonder, they are incredible) but take a time out to ignore his fanboys and the batman idea, and look at the man (man? demigod?) himself. A world of eternal night, were the lawless rule and murder and corruption are rife. This was a really f-ed up place, as kids Talos and Xarl (two of the anti-heroes of Soul Hunter) witness a rape and murder on the way home from school, and this is a normal thing. 

Along comes Konrad, The Night Haunter.

As you've seen, I like the guys who take a stand, do what needs to be done, cometh the hour cometh the man etc. Wow, Konrad did this and more. Seeing how truly messed up his world was, he took it upon himself to sacrifice everything he held dear - his humanity, his compassion and love, to become the monster he had to be to save others. The tragic hero, or a villain with morals? Your choice, and to me, he was both.

He genuinely tried to do something good but plagued by visions of pain and negative outcomes, he became the scariest Primarch of the lot. It makes you ask how many of his actions were self-fulfilling prophecies; did he see the negative outcomes and believe he could not change them, or were they truly inevitable? 

I also find the idea of his split personality (as told in Lord of the Night) one of the best ideas. One half a good soul, trying to do what was right, the other half, tainted by Chaos. One half focussed on his goals, the other, a being of terror. Thats a potent mix for personality, something Konrad oozes compared to other Primarchs. I could write much more on him, but suffice it to say, in my opinion he is joint top for the most interesting, badass and awesome one of the lot.


*Alpharius/Omegon*

My other joint favourite. This Primarch, one soul, two bodies, is also amongst the most badass and interesting. Let me explain. First, his legion is the last and yet racks up so many honours, taking it upon themselves to fight harder wars simply because the challenge is there. I forget who it was, but a reporter once asked a man who climbed Everest why he did it, to which the climber replied 'because it was there'. That's all there is to it. A challenge to be overcome, to improve yourself, to do what others say cannot. A worthy philosophy in my opinion. The idea of the Hydra for his legion is also the best of them all I believe, look at what happens when the Ultramaines try to fight them - they get their asses kicked. They cut off the head of the Alpha legion, yet each part operates still and the smurfs cannot contend. I especially dislike the boys in blue, so I'm a little biased here, but it's still a great victory.

Moreover, the secrecy of the Alpha Legion is something that is very appealing. Knowledge is power, and no one has any real knowledge about them. Where they operate, their doctrine of battle, their leaders? All a mystery.

The question of Alpharius Omegon's motives is also one the more interesting aspects of this character. "The Alpha Legion has always been for The Emperor" - wow. Since the Heresy it has been argued they are still fighting for The Emperor, while others give evidence to show they have finally turned to Chaos. At this moment, we will never know, but the secrecy, conspiracies and awesome-ness of Alpharius makes him all the better.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Machiavellismx said:


> One question to which I have not formed an answer, but I am leaning more towards the idea that Lion El'Jonson was right to send away Luther, but why all of the other Caliban troops to? That was a mistake. He seemed to cast away all ties to his homeworld after he felt Luther betrayed him, even though he somewhat redeemed himself at the last second.


Not to hijack the topic, but he sent back 500 Calibanites out of the thousands he recruited. And then he continued to recruit Calibanites, with tens of thousands of them joining his Legion. I can see how those 500 guys specifically eventually came to feel abandoned, but I'm not sure how he cast away all ties to his homeworld.

One of the ironies of the revolt on Caliban was its "vicious cycle" concept. The insurgency started because the natives resented what the Imperium did to Caliban (depending on the knight, it could have been not being as important as he used to be, or seeing his planet being ravaged). But precisely because Luther wanted to keep the revolt a secret from the Lion and from his own officers, the insurgency was able to grow more and more violent. This in turn led to yet more resentment toward the Imperium and the Primarch.

C'est la vie, I guess!

Cheers,
P.


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

My mistake! From the book I read and other fluff, I'd always been under the impression that the majority of the Calibanites were sent back, while he used mostly Terran troops after. Now you've said, I actually do recall one part of the book were the marines sent back begin to resent training the new recruits of Caliban, only to see them be sent away to fight for honour and glory while they were to remain and pretty much rot in their view - completely forgot about that.

It's defiantly a vicious cycle. Haven't got the book on me, but if I remember rightly didn't one group of knights actually horde some of the monsters of the world, to preserve the old ways before The Lion cleansed the planet? They felt obsolete or something of the nature as they were too old for the implants when The Emperor arrived, and sought to preserve the world they once inhabited.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

He sent the Calibanites who he had a connection with back, those that would remind him of his "former life".


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Macchiavelismx,

They were one part of the problem. The other half were former knights who, for various reasons, were against the Imperium. One of the ring-leaders simply didn't like the fact that the old knightly orders were no longer in charge, or that the commoners were now his equals. Another hated the fact that the forests were getting ripped down and the people consigned to hives.

Words_of_Truth,

I'm not sure about all that. He also sent back Israfael, whom he had no reason to distrust.

Furthermore, stories like "Savage Scars" dispute the idea that he didn't want reminders of his past life. He and his Legion continued using titles, insignia, attire, etc., that pointed to their Calibanite origins. If anything, the only relevant hint to such feelings points to the opposite: he didn't discriminate against his Terran Astartes, but he didn't like being reminded of his Legion _before_ him, either.

I think it's heavily enough implied that Luther admitted what he almost did to the Lion during the conference they had following the attack on the "Invincible Reason". In doing so, he earned himself exile and also consigned Zahariel to the same fate - since the latter didn't turn Luther in.

Cheers,
P.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I suppose so, not everyone he sent back was a reminder, but possibly sent to keep an eye on those. Unless Luther basically told the Lion everything I dunno how he could know what happened. 

What I was on about with the whole forgetting his past life, was the little things I picked up from conversations etc, such as Zach also killing a lion, luther being his best friend and father figure, the Lion's conversation with Zach on the battlements of the Rock when he was thinking of space etc. I dunno it's not stated outright it's just that's what I picked up on.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Luther was the one that reported the Saroshi ship being rigged with an atomic warhead via vox. A conference was then summoned. The Lion initially recognized something is amiss when he noticed Luther was injured. The conference begian, but before that Mitch Scanlon described the Lion and Luther having an intense conversation where they couldn't be overheard.

_"The Lion then turned away from Luther abruptly, his face a mask of unreadable emotion as he took his seat at the head of the table. Luther took his seat at the table too, and Zahariel could read his features much more easily. Their second-in-command’s expression was one of despair and anguish."_

Israfael then gives the idea to kill the daemon being summoned. Later, on the surface, Zahariel uncomfortably reflects on the fact that this is the first time the Lion has fought without Luther. They get back to the ship, and then he finds out he and Luther have been shit-canned.

Again, absent the author stating so, it's all supposition. But I think it's hinted heavily enough the Luther spilled the beans and fessed up. The Lion was pissed, but not enough to kill his (former) best friend and tear his Legion apart.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah, he'd rather send him home and let the guilt etc fester


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

Yeah, with the Lion's sense of duty and honour, especially from their knightly background, I think its understandable that he felt Luther had betrayed him. He's also a smart cookie, and probably knew it was out of some form of jealousy.

I wonder how many of the Marines sent back knew the whole story, if they didn't, its understandable to see why they rebelled when the time came. What I like about the Horus Heresy novels of the DA is (so far) there's been no mention of Chaos influencing the legion, but rather opposing views, bad decisions and circumstances. That is of course assuming Luther hasn't been tainted (yet?) and his jealousy isn't from Chaos.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

There is some taint, the Cypher is kind of already a chaos worshipper since he was a knight of lupus. There's an obvious taint to the land already which will probably put emphasis on peoples feelings.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Machievellismx,

I mean, "Fallen Angels" basically ends with...



... Luther painting himself up in sorcerous symbols, announcing he wants to summon and control daemons, and declaring rebellion against the Imperium. And that's after he spends an extended sabbatical in a library full of sorcerous tomes.


You decide! :wink:

Cheers,
P.


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

I seriously missed that. I'm going to have to go back and read it again :shok:

So yeah.. I guess Luther might be tainted?  haha


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