# 40K is NOT an expensive hobby.



## CLT40k (Jun 18, 2010)

so it seems there are a lot of folks really upset about the recent price hikes by GW. From my perspective, if you're OK paying $90 for a box set then you're already hooked. However, I am somewhat concerned about GWs ability to get kids into the game... but from my perspective I have a good job and don't sweat the prices too much... From my point of view... 40K is cheap.

I'm basing this off of other hobbies I've done...

1. Ice Hockey - couple of hundred in equipment... $200-$300 every quarter or so in ice time / league fees. And I typically played 2x per week.
2. Scuba Diving - Couple grand in equipment. Plan on at least $2-4K on trips with the wife to dive. 
3. Motorcycle riding - $7K in a Suzuki C50T, getting ready to drop $25K on a HD Ultra Classic.
4. Running - dirt cheap but boring.. only doing it so I can lose some weight.

Looking at my 40K hobby... I probably have $3-$4K invested currently... and I've been playing weekly for 3 years... Also, I'll normally spend about 10 hours painting each week... 

So how about the rest of ya... how much do you spend on this and other hobbies?


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

40K can be cheap when contrasted to other hobbies, but the fact still remains that it's expensive. Reason being is that nobody likes to stop at a small (say 1700 point-ish) army. We like HUGE armies. Numbers numbers numbers. That's when the game gets pricey. When I find myself buying 15 Thunderwolves for $285, I notice that something went wrong somewhere. As you said, you spend a couple of hundreds on hockey equipment. That $285 spent of plastic puppies could be spent on some other things.

The reason, I think, that 40K players (including me) complain about the price is because we have other things as well, other than Warhammer. And I'm still in school. People who own houses and have to pay for food, as well as whatever hobbies they may have, may not have the desire to pay for all this Warhammer.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

On this hobby? Not sure about the exact value but over 7000 points of pointy eared Eldar stuff has to amount to something.

I know that some stuff is more expensive I play hockey outside of the hobby (Not ice hockey) and that requires me to replace the stick every year and thats about £120. Not to mention any protective gear I may have damaged or grown out of. It gets even more expensive for goalkeepers.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

I have a LOT of models and equipment and yeah this hobby is cheap compared to when I played MTG and some of the other CCGs I played. Right now I can stop buying and have enough stuff to paint until I die probably.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

40K and Fantasy over the last 20 years - well, not as much as if I was buying it all now. Probably best part of £10K in todays money. (more like £3K of actual money).

Computer - well in the last 9 years Ive had 3 £1K computers. Since I started using computers in the early 90's - Ive probably spent (or had spent on me as a child) about £5K + probably another £500 on games (I play the games I have a lot, but I only get 1 or 2 a year).

D&D - I dont want to think what the 400+ books I have in the loft cost. Considering they are from the last 20 years they probably average £10. So thats another £4K.

Reading - I have over 1000 novels, admittedly mostly bought for less than RRP - so thats another £4K or there abouts.

All of this is over the last 20 years, and the PCs over the last 15. So all in all, the PCs are the most expensive - but I also use them for work, so that cant all be counted as 'hobby'.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I agree. I spend more on a single set of skis than I have on my entire army. Add cost for my jacket, pants, boots, helmet, goggles (admittedly they are Oakleys but they are nice and will never crap out on me), poles and season passes and you probably could build a fair sized apoc army for the same cost.


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## SlamHammer (Mar 28, 2011)

Between Magic the Gathering, Warhammer 40k, Online MMOs, PS3/XBOX 360 games, and general love of going to new movies, most of my Disposable Military Income is spent. 

As for Warhammer 40k I usually spend about $100 a month. That ensures that I have time to paint the new units and really decide on my next purchase, making each buy relevant to the overall strategy of my army.

Just budget yourself and it doesn't seem that expensive. Plus, you gotta have a hobby...and I guess this is better then doing Meth.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

SlamHammer said:


> and I guess this is better then doing Meth.


BUT - is it cheaper :grin:


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

Put it this way - I know people who will drop £30-£40 at the pub every Friday. It baffles the imagination, and all they have to show for it is a headache in the morning.

Compared to that, almost any hobby looks cheap.


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## CLT40k (Jun 18, 2010)

DestroyerHive said:


> The reason, I think, that 40K players (including me) complain about the price is because we have other things as well, other than Warhammer. And I'm still in school. People who own houses and have to pay for food, as well as whatever hobbies they may have, may not have the desire to pay for all this Warhammer.


Golf was like that for me. Back in the early 90s I was in the Marines. Being military I got to play really cheap at the military courses. Once I got out and finished school I looked into getting back into it. But between clubs (relatively cheap) and greens fees (expensive) I couldn't justify the fun that I had playing golf in comparison to the fun that I have with other hobbies. 

Rugby was a cheap hobby (cept for the beer) but at 37 I've aged out of it... old bones don't heal like younger ones.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

I also airsoft. Compared to that hobby, miniature gaming is DIRTCHEAP for the amount of hours of fun you can have for the investment. Even more so if you are more into the painting and modelling aspect of the game, rather then collecting massive armies of grey plastic troopers. 

Heck... on an average airsoft skirm, I spend about as much money as I would have spend on a single tank/squad in 40k. And painting that thing usually gives me more hours of enjoyment then a single, 6 hour skirm (and that's not even counting the cost of equipment and replicas or any broken parts you suffer during games).


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

I WIN

renault clio 170 £2500, seats £750 each, fuel tank £250, roll cage £800, harness' £100, fire extinguishers £70, racing clutch £250, uprated brakes £300 and suspension £300, tyres £50 a corner, tralier. . . . you get the idea 

(its a Renault Clio race car btw)


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

I've probably spent more on my PC's over the last year than i EVER will on 40k and i have a lot of Orks with the intention of getting even more!

Relative to work crossing with Hobbies: i use 2 of my PC's for work purposes both costing around 4-5k each. The other 7 i have either complete or works in progress have cost me several times that over the years.

I'd say 40k is cheap compared to that particular hobby of mine.

I also keep and ride a Horse and breed Roses, which are not cheap either.

SGMAlice


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## Ascendant (Dec 11, 2008)

Honestly, I think the hobby is also expensive because of who it appeals to. A lot of people that play have a steady job and are at a point in their lives where they can afford large armies, not just what they "need" to play. 

I have been playing for about 9 years, and I have spent no more than $1500 on the hobby. Pretty good considering a lot of things I have spent money on that time I no longer use at all.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

My Hobbies are more about 'value' for money than just the total amount spent on them. I've spent around A$10,000 on my 4 armies - 3 of 40K and 1 of WH Fantasy, but seen as I use them a lot I'm fine with that.


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

I do freestyle nunchaku, which is about £20 for chux and then no cost from there on out.

YOUR THEORY IS BROKEN!

Honestly though, I completely agree. The money i've spent on biking and computers over the years is huge compared to the cash i've dropped on 40k. £20 spent on plastic marines will keep me in painting for a month or so, and I think that's good value even though I don't play.


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## Killystar Gul Dakka (Mar 20, 2011)

There are two kinds of people in this hobby...the ones who can afford it, and those who cannot. Both types play regardless, the only difference is that the first one has the bigger army because they can splurge on every paycheck, the others simply put back money where they can, or just wait for their tax returns.

I happen to be the latter. It's taken me 3 years to amass 4k+ Orks, and truth be told, if prices were 20% cheaper, I'd probably buy on alot more regular basis. Because contrary to opinions, $76 is alot more attractive than $90. That leaves room for needed paints or another metal(er..resin) model.

This hobby IS expensive, considering what you're actually paying for (plastic). I throw away 30% of the _plastic_ that comes in my $90 box of plastic, so maybe I should mail the empty sprues back to GW and ask for a rebate.

Thank Mork that Games Workshop doesn't make condoms, otherwise the Geek Birthrate would skyrocket!


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

Hellados said:


> I WIN
> 
> renault clio 170 £2500, seats £750 each, fuel tank £250, roll cage £800, harness' £100, fire extinguishers £70, racing clutch £250, uprated brakes £300 and suspension £300, tyres £50 a corner, tralier. . . . you get the idea
> 
> (its a Renault Clio race car btw)


Wow, for that money you could have bought a good car!


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Well I dropped 800 on building my awsome PC that can play anygame. I get everyday use out of it for Internet, Bills, Info, Entertainment, Work, and Self Pleasure when Im deployed. 

I dropped close to 3600 on my hobby that I enjoy 2-3 times a month. Less now my FLGS close down. Its a hobby that is perceaved by everyone who sees my models as Plastic Toy Space Man. 

Sad fact is Motorcycles, Scuba Diving, Hockey are respectable hobbies that are popular and perceaved as cool. 40K does not fall in line with these, yet is charges as much. Its sickening.


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## ArchangelPaladin (Jul 7, 2010)

My wife and i spend about $10k a year traveling around the world (we actuary just got back from a cruise around a bunch of Greek islands.) So compared to that the $300 or so i spend a year on 40k is a drop in the bucket. 

But while your point comparing the cost of 40k to the cost of our other hobbies is valid i have a counter argument: 40k is indeed expensive because we pay $20 for a toy somewhat akin to something from a happy meal or a box of cereal. They charge us a butt load of cash for what amounts to less than 50 cents of raw material. It's a lot like getting a soda at a restaurant; you can get one from the store for 30 cents but they're charging you $3. Yes I understand the concepts of value added, supply chains, niche markets, and the cost of running brick and mortar stores, but with everything factored in a more reasonable price for that shiny new hq should be $10, $15 max. GW is basically making $10 of pure cheddar for each hq sold and that my friend is a rip off. And because of this I can’t blame some people for their nerd rage. (Esp nid players $60 for a hive tyrant???)


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Sad fact is Motorcycles, Scuba Diving, Hockey are respectable hobbies that are popular and perceaved as cool. 40K does not fall in line with these, yet is charges as much. Its sickening.


I think you'd be surprised. When I rock up to the beach and open my boot to reveal my 40k army, the chicks are all over me. I can just about make out the scuba divers skulking away as i'm smothered by girls in bikinis.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

@archangelpaladin have you seen GW's profit margin its kinda low.


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## cruor angelus silicis (Jan 13, 2010)

High powered rocketry is my other more expensive hobby.

A build last year:

Nose cone, airframes, fibreglass, carbon fibre, various epoxies and laminating resins, fibre glass sheet for the fins and other hardware coming in at around £1500

Parachutes to safely recover the thing £400

Electronics and altimeters to make sure said parachutes deploy £500

Rocket motor and casing £1400

Tracking equipment to find the rocket after its launch to 14000 feet £700

So about £4500 from launch to touch down which was about 10 minutes.

40K is my main hobby these days, the wife is so pleased I'm addicted to the plastic crack!


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

I probably buy something every month to every two months. I probably could buy more if I didn't take the missus on so many dates. Heh, guess I can't help myself. Gotta catch up painting somehow, eh?


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

I would say that at a guess i have spent on all my GW product about $10,000

I as many of you know a 17,000 point Chaos Space Marine Army, but i also have a 6,000 point Ork Army, plus i have some Eldar, Orcs and Goblins, Dwarfs and Space Marines.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Varakir said:


> I think you'd be surprised. When I rock up to the beach and open my boot to reveal my 40k army, the chicks are all over me. I can just about make out the scuba divers skulking away as i'm smothered by girls in bikinis.


If any of that was true i would be at the beach a hell of a lot more.


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## The Gunslinger (Apr 4, 2011)

i got my 1000 point army, codex and rule book quickly, but now il wait till its all painted before buying anything else (he says) it is expensive but then so is everything in life, living, eating, having a girlfriend and seeing your friends.

At the end of the day all i have to say is its money well spent


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

The Gunslinger said:


> i got my 1000 point army, codex and rule book quickly, but now il wait till its all painted before buying anything else (he says) it is expensive but then so is everything in life, living, eating, having a girlfriend and seeing your friends.
> 
> At the end of the day all i have to say is its money well spent


Having a girlfriend and having 40k models doesn't match, They both scare the other away.


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## The Gunslinger (Apr 4, 2011)

Azkaellon said:


> Having a girlfriend and having 40k models doesn't match, They both scare the other away.


 
she does complain about how much it costs, but then i do spoil her sometimes (got her the first 6 seasons of desperate housewives AND im watching them with her :suicide so it all balances out, she even painted a plague marine once, she actually did a pretty good job


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## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

comparing 40K to motorbikes and other such hobbies isn't really a valid arguement, some hulking machine of huge compexity, power, e.t.c is entirely different to what is in effect a childs toy.

whilst i believe that GW should put a bit of price onto the products due to the quality and elitism of the hobby, the products must be sold at about 1000% or more of their component value.

in the past 3 years i've bought 1 landspeeder, all the time greedily eying up the DE codex. had prices been 20% less i'd have probably bought 2/3K in points, as it is i haven't spent a penny(£18). cost benefit analysis-20 wyches or 6 trips to the cinema or eat out with the girlfriend etc. GW loose


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

I don't know how much I've spent on 40K over the last 3-4 years, but I know it pales into insignificance compared to what I've spent on guitars and recording equipment.




Caliban said:


> ...the products must be sold at about 1000% or more of their component value.


 True, but you're not paying for the component cost alone; you're also paying for the entire process involved in producing the model itself - sculpting, art, production, marketing etc etc.


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## Schizofen (Mar 11, 2009)

Svartmetall said:


> True, but you're not paying for the component cost alone; you're also paying for the entire process involved in producing the model itself - sculpting, art, production, marketing etc etc.


Exactly. It's the same as DVDs, CDs and games. The production cost of those is a few pence. You're paying for the time and effort that went into making them.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

The Gunslinger said:


> she does complain about how much it costs, but then i do spoil her sometimes (got her the first 6 seasons of desperate housewives AND im watching them with her :suicide so it all balances out, she even painted a plague marine once, she actually did a pretty good job


Hey, desperate housewives is good! :threaten: 
jk

Yeah, i agree that 4ok is not expensive, compared to my other hobbies, like drinking, where i spend the guts of €80 for 7 hours fun and a sore head the next day, once every couple of weeks, while with 40k i spend maybe €50-100 maybe every 2 months. And of my other hobbies, golf is the most expensive, with clubs (fuck!!! €700 for a new set) membership which is €600 per year and other equipment costing around €200 per year. Rugby is cheap enough, and we only pay €30 per month, so its affordable. Gym membership in college is €200, which is pretty good considering how often i use it (trying to lose some weight). So all things considered, 40k is not that expensive, but i would be inclined to spend more if prices were a tiny bit lower, like 5-10% would make a big difference


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## Abomination (Jul 6, 2008)

Warhammer isn't expensive at all for me, nothing is. Since starting in 2004 I've probaly spent about £4k on 40,000/Fantasy. Probaly about the same on videogames (although I started playing them in 1998).


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## Some Call Me... TIM (Apr 3, 2011)

I disagree. The more time you spend on the models, the less you care and spend time with them as time rolls by.

Think about it, you glue, paint then play a game. Thats about it. As suppose to other hobbies where you train and play for several hours every week. I suppose some people do the same with GW products. But overall? I don't think so. I suppose thats why GW has so many fair weather commers. Stop in get a box of something, play with it for a game or two then done. 

I think GW would get a lot more money making its products 10-20% a lot cheaper. Think about it like this. I don't know that many people that haven't thought about making other armies. And what prevents us from doing that? GW would be making so much dough if it got its true fans to buy more and more armies. I'm really surprised at how many players that have been in the hobby for several and several years that only have one or just a couple armies.


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## Luisjoey (Dec 3, 2010)

Everything not FREE is expensive! ...


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

I have 25,000 points of Eldar and I have spent less then $2,500 on it, including all my resin crack from FW. Fuck I think I have spent more on airbrushes and brushes then my army lol.


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## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

It's not an expensive hobby _for the amount of time you spend on it._

If you add up all the hours spent playing, painting, building lists, etc you're probably looking at a minuscule cost per hour for the hobby compared to, say, going to a movie or golfing...

But here's the thing... Some folks are comparing Warhammer to thinks like skiing, scuba diving and custom motorcycles to prove it's cheaper...

... see what I'm sayin? 

For a lot of people, hobbies like scuba diving are prohibitively expensive as well.

Although I too marvel that some folks can spend so much in a bar or on cigarettes... truly that's much more money spent than anything I've ever done in Warhammer.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

unixknight said:


> It's not an expensive hobby _for the amount of time you spend on it._.


Well, the thing is, its only as expensive as your comparason.

If you regularly spend £50 in a bar, then GW isnt expensive.

If your only hobby is watching eastenders on a £100 a year tV licence, then its expensive.

If you go scuba diving and skiing each year, then its not expensive.

If your only hobby is playing football with your friends in the local park, then its expensive.

It doesnt really matter how long you spend on it if you cant afford it in the first place .


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Some Call Me... TIM said:


> I think GW would get a lot more money making its products 10-20% a lot cheaper. Think about it like this. I don't know that many people that haven't thought about making other armies. .


I _think_ about making other armies all the time, and I could afford it if I wanted to, but I already have enough to keep me in models for a few months.

If it was cheaper i'd just have a bigger pile of unpainted stuff, and considering the amount of unpainted stuff some forum users have got, they'd need to rent a storage bunker to keep it in.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

I'm sick of all these bullshit positivity threads trying to saint our beloved GW and make excuses for their business conduct. 

Yeah, 40K is not expensive by comparison to a lot. Neither is a space shuttle. *But have you considered it's not about that?* Have you instead stopped to ask yourself whether people are more upset that things are getting more expensive, or whether they are upset because GW is looking more and more like that corporation in the 1984 commercial? Which one? This one:






Yeah sure, not the best of examples. But you know. The underlying fact is that GW are starting to realize the extent of what they can get away with.

Last quarterly showed financial results and a profit margin not seen in years from Games Workshop. They haven't had profits like these in many years. Then why are they squeezing us even more?

Basically, GW now have a good profit margin now. They're doing well. Yet, they want more. They are now not raising prices out of necessity or tough times. They're doing it solely to sate the greed of their fat cat investors. Some can excuse that? Well, then they're the real problem here.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> I'm sick of all these bullshit positivity threads trying to saint our beloved GW and make excuses for their business conduct.
> 
> Yeah, 40K is not expensive by comparison to a lot. Neither is a space shuttle. *But have you considered it's not about that?* Have you instead stopped to ask yourself whether people are more upset that things are getting more expensive, or whether they are upset because GW is looking more and more like that corporation in the 1984 commercial? Which one? This one:
> 
> ...


I agree with that.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Revenue £126mil and pre-tax profit of £16.1Mil.

I can't be the only one that thinks that this is very low.

A 10% drop in revenue would see GW up shit creek without a paddle.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Last quarterly showed financial results and a profit margin not seen in years from Games Workshop. They haven't had profits like these in many years. Then why are they squeezing us even more?


The soul reason for their profit margin last year was the massive cost cutting measures they introduced - so thats GW at its bare bones (I know you want to do away with the stores, that is, as always, a separate arguement).

If GW is to grow they simply need to increase the amount of money they take in. If in 3 years GW is posting £50+million profits -then you can come back to me and tell me I was wrong.

They wont be.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

So basically they will keep increasing prices and in 10 years only people of High Class can afford the hobby... but they wont since Motorcycles , scuba, and Hockey are not only cooler but VERY well known and sociably acceptable.

Guess that leaves GW up creek without a paddle.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Basically, GW now have a good profit margin now. They're doing well. Yet, they want more. They are now not raising prices out of necessity or tough times. They're doing it solely to sate the greed of their fat cat investors. Some can excuse that? Well, then they're the real problem here.


Because only fat cat investors care about making a profit. Plus only fat cat investors like getting paid, normal employees don't care if they get a paycheck as long as they have a job. They also don't need the money to develop new products or get new technologies, those are free.

Companies are in business to make as much money as they can. Prices are set to what the market would bear, if they couldn't maintain an acceptable profit margin at their current prices they would either lower it to increase volume (not a guarantee because of it being a niche product) or raise prices to generate a higher profit margin (smarter given limited demand on the product).


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

If everyone is so upset about prices - just buy less. GW is not a company that makes a lot of money compared to other companies.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> If everyone is so upset about prices - just buy less. GW is not a company that makes a lot of money compared to other companies.


I like the concept of a game where you can make everything and go and play with it. Its pretty fun. Buying less doesn't solve the problems. I've seen too many of my friends stop playing the game entirely. And throughout the years, how many potential customers and hobbiests has GW lost when they come in the store looking interested and walk out right after looking at the prices. Luckily, my parents helped me buy my first models. I personally almost did not become part of the hobby those many years ago.


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I like the concept of a game where you can make everything and go and play with it. Its pretty fun. Buying less doesn't solve the problems. I've seen too many of my friends stop playing the game entirely. And throughout the years, how many potential customers and hobbiests has GW lost when they come in the store looking interested and walk out right after looking at the prices. Luckily, my parents helped me buy my first models. I personally almost did not become part of the hobby those many years ago.


I went through the same plight. When I started about 7-8 years ago, my friend's parents were able to buy/help them buy exactly what they wanted, whereas my mom helped me very little because of pressing financial matters. My collection as it stands today was built on the tedious foundations on which it started - I couldn't have everything I wanted and I had to wait.

It is sad to see potential/new hobbyists quit because of market forces. Yet, there is nothing, we the consumer, can do to prevent that. I am not saying it is right, but the individual hobbyist means nothing to them. A few people not joining the hobby is of little concern, unless it somehow effects their quarterly and annual figures. GW is a business first before they are a people-pleaser.

I suppose the moral of the depressing situation is that good things come to those who wait.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

If I sold my Golf gear for retail price I would reliably be able to buy a small squadron of Titans or a Manta (and a half).


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## Killystar Gul Dakka (Mar 20, 2011)

If I sold my kidney on the black market I could probably buy a couple more Stompas too


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## arumichic (May 14, 2011)

I actually rather have my boyfriend drop 1k on WH and WH40k rather than go out and drink or something, though I wouldn't mind him getting back into airsoft or something that gets him out of the house too...he's gotten a bit out of shape. :laugh:

But yes, it is cheaper than a lot of hobbies out there, but I think ppl are more mad at GW for actually taking advantage and being a capitalistic venture. I mean, charging more to turn metal models back into resin and plastic mix? But eventually, even if people get angry, they'll go crawling back to GW...like I have...


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## Igniskhin (May 19, 2011)

in highschool i spent a months worth of lunch money on my first models...

after my first job I decided to ride a bike to work rather then spend the money on gas for a week (1983 ford LTD, 9 MPG...)

stopped playing for few years, got into World of Warcraft(2 accounts), Eve-online(2 accounts), and smoking (pack a day)...

I've now quite all three of those and have over 200 bucks a month to spend on Warhammer so hello necrons

its not the most expensive thing out there... but there are ways to make it work on a tight budget.


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## Luisjoey (Dec 3, 2010)

GIRLS are the expensive hobby

the rest is cheap

I think people say warhammer is expensive in contrast with other wargaming, always others companies say that they game are cheaper than GW or better (pre-assembled, pre-painted, with simplier and better rules, etc) 

If you compare Warhammer with other hobbies like scuba, kite surf, paintball, etc. Warhammer is pretty cheap and you could do it most anywhere and any time. the only cheaper thing than warhammer is Computer Playing and Roleplaying games. 

for the log, collectible games are never CHEAPER than Warhammer, NEVER!


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Luisjoey said:


> GIRLS are the expensive hobby


Hey hey, that's not fair! Girls aren't a hobby, they're work! :secret:


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Hey hey, that's not fair! Girls aren't a hobby, they're work! :secret:


If you view them that way then obviously they ain't doin their job right. Or you just epic fail to notice the signs.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> If you view them that way then obviously they ain't doin their job right. Or you just epic fail to notice the signs.


You quite clearly ARENT married.... :laugh:


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Maidel said:


> You quite clearly ARENT married.... :laugh:


Well if I was married at 19 I would be a little worried. And confused about what the hell is going on?!?!?

Ah the glories of being a lone free ranger.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Well if I was married at 19 I would be a little worried. And confused about what the hell is going on?!?!?
> 
> Ah the glories of being a lone free ranger.


 
There are plenty of people married at 19.


Its just where they are at 25 thats hard to work out.


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## arumichic (May 14, 2011)

Why you guys ragging on girls?!  They're not a hobby or work if they're all like me. :biggrin: All I require are games and food, which the boy wants too, so I think that's not much to ask. :so_happy:


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

arumichic said:


> Why you guys ragging on girls?!  They're not a hobby or work if they're all like me. :biggrin: All I require are games and food, which the boy wants too, so I think that's not much to ask. :so_happy:


you never need clothes or being taken shopping, or going out or holidays?


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

arumichic said:


> Why you guys ragging on girls?!  They're not a hobby or work if they're all like me. :biggrin: All I require are games and food, which the boy wants too, so I think that's not much to ask. :so_happy:


Care to hand your number over?:wink:


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## VX485 (Feb 17, 2011)

40k is expensive in AUS, now that i've grown up and life has reared its ugly head along with the recent price hike myself and nearly everyone at my FLGS has been priced out of the hobby. 

It's cheap if your parents are loaded as i do see with alot of the little power gamer noobs in GW's.

I can understand GW saying 'ok we lost money, raise prices to make up the shortfall' but why don't they just 'lower prices so people will buy more'


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

VX485 said:


> 40k is expensive in AUS, now that i've grown up and life has reared its ugly head along with the recent price hike myself and nearly everyone at my FLGS has been priced out of the hobby.
> 
> It's cheap if your parents are loaded as i do see with alot of the little power gamer noobs in GW's.
> 
> I can understand GW saying 'ok we lost money, raise prices to make up the shortfall' but why don't they just 'lower prices so people will buy more'


Well i just went onto the GW Australia site to look up the price of Mad Dok Grotsnik well i looked at the new Ghazkhull finecast model, and was shocked to see it at $65.00Au or $69.65US while GW USA Shelf Price is $35.00, so we are paying $34.65US more for the same item, so Australians are paying 98% more than Americans.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> Well i just went onto the GW Australia site to look up the price of Mad Dok Grotsnik well i looked at the new Ghazkhull finecast model, and was shocked to see it at $65.00Au or $69.65US while GW USA Shelf Price is $35.00, so we are paying $34.65US more for the same item, so Australians are paying 98% more than Americans.


thats because there cost of living is almost double the rest of the western world, dont feel too sorry for them they earn more than you, plus they keep sending barry humphries to the UK to annoy the hell out of us


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

I'll see you Barry humphreys and raise you a goddamn Rolf Harris!


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## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

40k is cheap compared to other hobbies....however compaed to other War gamming hobbies or tabletop hobbies it's up there with sky diving


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Maidel said:


> you never need clothes or being taken shopping, or going out or holidays?


And what, boys don't wear clothes or need to go food shopping, or want to go to the pub occasionally or away from work for a bit? :wink:

Now I think about it, I haven't gone clothes shopping for myself in over three years, or to the pub for anything other than family sunday lunch in about a year. I've never been fond of nightclubs or getting pissed (I really can't see the point, it makes the evening less enjoyable) and with small children holidays are a lot of hard work...

I have three main hobbies: Warhammer (which I have enough bits for to last me til the world ends, yet still find things I need to pick up regularly), LARPing and gardening. Warhammer is actually the cheapest of the three, and the one I partake in most often (at present).


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Are you sure you are female?


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Maidel said:


> Are you sure you are female?


If I'm not, in three weeks I'm going to have a _really_ uncomfortable time in the maternity ward :wink:


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

SilverTabby said:


> If I'm not, in three weeks I'm going to have a _really_ uncomfortable time in the maternity ward :wink:


Touché


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> Well i just went onto the GW Australia site to look up the price of Mad Dok Grotsnik well i looked at the new Ghazkhull finecast model, and was shocked to see it at $65.00Au or $69.65US while GW USA Shelf Price is $35.00, so we are paying $34.65US more for the same item, so Australians are paying 98% more than Americans.


Which wasn't much of an Issue when GW frist went into Australia, because the AU$ was trading much less then the US$. It is now more attractive to buy else where because the AU$ is trading equal to or higher then the US$.

The real question is, would the complaints about the AU prices stop if the AU$ was trading between $0.50-$0.75US?


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## Phrazer (Oct 14, 2008)

Hummm, id have to say ive spent more on golf in the past few years than GW stuff. Just spent £840 on club membership, say £1500 on clubs and equipement over the past couple of years. Yikes, sounds alot when u put it like that doesnt it??


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## Luisjoey (Dec 3, 2010)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Hey hey, that's not fair! Girls aren't a hobby, they're work! :secret:


Not to be a MACHIST

wife are actually the work

Girls friends are the expensive hobbie

but is a must be lovely hobbie/work :victory:


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Luisjoey said:


> wife are actually the work
> 
> Girls friends are the expensive hobbie


 
^^This^^ :biggrin:


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Not counting FW I have spent 50$ on gw stuff in the last year.


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## Radeb86 (Apr 2, 2011)

My girlfriend recently discovered that my t-shirts average 7 years old (they are still in good nick though). So im fearing the shopping trip i am meant to be going on, that will be expensive if she starts running around! 
I have not tried to work out what i have spent on 40k over the 4 years i have started playing and collecting, my last estimate was around 1K i think. I don't play golf, i read when i can, get computer games once they have been out for a while. Most things are affordable if you wait or shop around or budget right. 
What my friend and I always remember, we might spend £30 on a game maybe, but in around 6 months that game might not be around, we are both confident in 6 years the model we spend a similar amount on will still be around. 
Thats where the value for me comes into it. Hopefully the girlfriend will be around too so the money spent on taking her out will have the same feel to the model and not the computer game!


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## The Gunslinger (Apr 4, 2011)

meh the amount im going to be spending on a engagement ring is going to be significantly more then I would spend on Warhammer


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## Rolando (Jun 6, 2011)

Comparing GW to other miniature companies, specially plastic ones, its a lot more expensive... around double or more.

Comparing it with raw plastic is not just but also wrong comparing it it race cars, wife and travel!

You can buy from 20 to 40 plastic historic miniatures for less than 20.00$

Compared to other colectible games/hobbies (Magic for example) its cheapper...


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## SaintTom (Nov 26, 2010)

Rolando said:


> Compared to other colectible games/hobbies (Magic for example) its cheapper...



I'm probably just reading it wrong, or maybe you used a bad example, but how is Magic more expensive than 40k?


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## arumichic (May 14, 2011)

Maidel said:


> you never need clothes or being taken shopping, or going out or holidays?


I agree with SilverTabby. Sometimes I do, but I don't go around spending hundreds of dollars for something. I haven't gone shopping for myself in....a year. In fact, Drannith actually tries to make me go out and buy clothes and such. I guess he's the good one. :biggrin: 
Plus I don't go out for drinks or clubbing, etc. The main thing I do get are food cravings which I'm sure guys get them too and Drannith's happy to comply, since we usually get the same food cravings around the same time or just because he has to eat too. 
And holidays, I'm usually at home making big home cooked meals for all the Warhammer guys that come over to our house to play, since most are either single or don't have family close by because we're around a military base.

But my main hobbies are video games and warhammer. Which I guess makes both Drannith and me happy.


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## arumichic (May 14, 2011)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Care to hand your number over?:wink:


Lol!~ Sorry, but I'm not single. :laugh: You'd have to kill Drannith first if you want my number. :biggrin:


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## Rolando (Jun 6, 2011)

SaintTom said:


> I'm probably just reading it wrong, or maybe you used a bad example, but how is Magic more expensive than 40k?


Its ok
magic, just as most other CCG's are in great part about buying... expansoions appear each year (three or four I think) and each 2 or 3 of those invalidate any non reprinted card in past expansions in a few tourney formats.

Some formats use all expansions (or most all at least) but again random cards make you buy a lot to have a good deck, and buying cards individually is just as costly.

In general... a TIPICAL CCG player buy more often tha a TIPICAL miniature game player... at the end of the year it sums more... in general... you may ask at your local game store.

Warhammer is pricy, but even then people tend to buy lest often, because they have to paint and stuff...


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## SaintTom (Nov 26, 2010)

Rolando said:


> Its ok
> magic, just as most other CCG's are in great part about buying... expansoions appear each year (three or four I think) and each 2 or 3 of those invalidate any non reprinted card in past expansions in a few tourney formats.
> 
> Some formats use all expansions (or most all at least) but again random cards make you buy a lot to have a good deck, and buying cards individually is just as costly.
> ...


Ah I see, ok. Thanks for explaining it to me; didn't know CCG's could turn so serious. Though that happens with everything I suppose, once that competitive rush gets to people. ^^"


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## Luisjoey (Dec 3, 2010)

SaintTom collectible games are always expensive! 

Magic is cheap if you buy an sealed deck and play with it, but to have a semi-competitive deck you need to expend lots of money and time collecting the stuff. Also Card games don´t use a single deck but use several decks, keeping them at day is expensive. 

Even Warhammer make new miniatures for an army around every 4 years, i seen people playing with armies brought 8 year ago, and they could play very competitive or need only to update. CCG have expansion for everything around each 2 or 3 months.


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

Getting kids into 40k, isn't that hard, GW are producing a set of models that allow you to play straight away, with two armies. Cheaper than most other things available to you. Great way to start the hobby. Combined with persuasiveness at the till, GW make it happen


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## Radeb86 (Apr 2, 2011)

I was sold to the hobby my a friend badgering me for about 2 months to play and then when in the shop and lovely gentleman in the shop repeatedly saying "box of hate" while stroking the box of CSM. It doesn't take much to get hooked especially if a friend already plays. That is also how you can end up buying more and more.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

I have 6 armies of at least 1000 pts each. Enough said.


But YES, Warhammer IS an expensive hobby. But i'm taking a break from it to play som Wormahordes. Cygnar and Legion bitches!


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## KjellThorngaard (Oct 4, 2010)

I haven't been on much lately. Too much RL in the way. I have to agree with the OP- it isn't that expensive. I shoot- $30 bucks for 50 shots, plus range fees, targets, travel to the range, etc. I build a model railroad- $250+ per engine for a good DCC sound-eguipped model, and $20+ per car. I will end up with 20-30 engines and 500+ cars. I scuba dive. I have spent around $2500 hundred on gear, and upgrade some stuff from time to time. Like CLT said, then there is travel to dive. Very pricey. 

Compared, none of the GW hobbies are terrible, not cheap, but not too bad. It has been mentioned that pretty much none of us stops with a single army. Or a samll one. I am still going for the whole chapter of Marines and a regiment of IG, such is my madness. But I still ahve all those minis, the satisfaction of modeling and painting, and the memories from epic games. Worth it to me, even though I have taken a hiatus or two.

Now that I am building armies for the family to learn Fantasy it is a bit pricey to build 4 armies at once, though I could have just stretched out the timing a bit and lessened the impact. It has bee nworth it to see the kids get excited, and you cn't put a price on that.

Game on heretics. KT


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

In total over the last 10 years including forge world I have spent 4000 dollars on Warhammer products (Not including video games). If I smoke or drank or even played golf this number would be 3X this number. 

However like most hobbis cost is mitigated by how prolific the hobby is in your life, and I have a freind that has spent upwards of 6000 CAN dollars on GW products in the last 3 years.


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

I have to say, its expensive compared to what it was 5 or 6 years ago. I mean not even Gas prices have gone up by that amount.... well may be, and personaly i think thats where alot of this unease comes from.


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## countchocula86 (Sep 1, 2008)

There is also the expense of time. I mean, buying an equivalently priced video game, you can play right out of the box. With miniatures, you need to model and paint them as well.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

countchocula86 said:


> There is also the expense of time. I mean, buying an equivalently priced video game, you can play right out of the box. With miniatures, you need to model and paint them as well.


Erm, for most people that's actually a positive. If you consider the painting side of the hobby to not be 'part of the fun' then perhaps you are doing the wrong hobby...


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

My (Stop...) _Hobby Time_ consists of at least 60% painting and modeling. I probably enjoy it more than playing. It's hard to lose that way!


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

DeathKlokk said:


> My (Stop...) _Hobby Time_ consists of at least 60% painting and modeling. I probably enjoy it more than playing. It's hard to lose that way!


This is my point entirely - accept you need to replace that 6 and that 0 both with 9s.

:biggrin:


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## Carna (Mar 13, 2008)

Of course it's not expensive when you compare it to other hobbies, but most Aussies compare the price to other countries where we're paying twice as much. I understand the whole "got to ship it in, Aus tax blah blah" but at the end of the day, comparing it to UK or EU, we're getting shafted.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

The comparison shouldn't be to *ALL* hobbies, but to other tabletop hobbies.

RPG's, Boardgames, etc

In which case it is an expensive hobby.


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

Varakir said:


> I think you'd be surprised. When I rock up to the beach and open my boot to reveal my 40k army, the chicks are all over me. I can just about make out the scuba divers skulking away as i'm smothered by girls in bikinis.


If this is true I will give you all my money to borrow your army for a day and go to the beach.

Other than that: There's always ways around the cost of GW products. 2nd Hand, Discounted online buys / gaming club discounts / Salvaging from peoples bitz boxes etc. 

What I feel really costs the game and the hobby as a whole is the false ideas put into new players / kids heads by sales staff. They show them expertly painted miniatures, show them cool wargames terrain and then begin throwing battle-boxes, rule books, glues, paints, extras etc etc at them. Usually alot of them are buying during a Birthday period so they get all that stuff. Then they find quite quickly that the hobby isn't a quick glue and splash of paint job and you end up with kids put off the game. I would much rather see restrained sales of things to new players and snowballing them into the hobby rather than the rushed "BUY ALL THIS NOW!" sales I see. You'd have alot more people sticking around and playing if you did and would raise the overall profile and acceptance of the game/hobby as a whole.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Maidel said:


> Erm, for most people that's actually a positive. If you consider the painting side of the hobby to not be 'part of the fun' then perhaps you are doing the wrong hobby...


Exactly, i love painting (at the mo' i have painters fatigue) for me it is better than playing the game.

Considering the stability of prices on other products, GW products have had considerable price rises over the last few years.

Example

Assault on Black Reach circa September 2009 $95Au and now June 2011, some 21 months later is now $165.00 which is approx 75% price rise in 21 months, not bad when the official CPI in Australia is less than 3.5%. If the CPI (Consumer Price Index) the box of Assault on Black Reach would only be around $102.00Au

I have been able to track down a replacement to Citadel paints. 

Example

22ml bottle of Coat D'arms cost $2.90 Australian while a bottle 12ml of Citadel is $6.00 Australian. As for Citadel you get 45% less and pay 107% more and there is the glues and other woefully expensive supplies.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

gally912 said:


> The comparison shouldn't be to *ALL* hobbies, but to other tabletop hobbies.
> 
> RPG's, Boardgames, etc
> 
> In which case it is an expensive hobby.


Even there it's really not. Take RPGs like D&D for instance. You need 3 core books to play ($35-$40 a peice), but there are a TON of additional books (at $25-$35 a peice) you can pick up to enhance your playing. Thats also assuming you don't want to then pick up another RPG like Deathwatch, Exalted, World of Darkness, Pathfinder, BattleTech, or any of the others available. Plus thats not even including purchasing models to represent your characters in on your table. 

Boardgames could be cheaper, but only if you're playing things by Mattel. The really fun boardgames tend to run much higher then the stuff you find at Target.

And you can't even compare the cost of a CCG to Warhammer. Warhammer isn't even in the same league of expense as a game like MtG.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Wusword77 said:


> Even there it's really not. Take RPGs like D&D for instance. You need 3 core books to play ($35-$40 a peice), but there are a TON of additional books (at $25-$35 a peice) you can pick up to enhance your playing. Thats also assuming you don't want to then pick up another RPG like Deathwatch, Exalted, World of Darkness, Pathfinder, BattleTech, or any of the others available. Plus thats not even including purchasing models to represent your characters in on your table.
> 
> Boardgames could be cheaper, but only if you're playing things by Mattel. The really fun boardgames tend to run much higher then the stuff you find at Target.
> 
> And you can't even compare the cost of a CCG to Warhammer. Warhammer isn't even in the same league of expense as a game like MtG.


That's not really true, because the entry level for a standard game has much disparity.

To *play* a traditional RPG, you need the players manual, about a dozen dice, and a pad of paper. Maybe a model. I've yet to run into a player who needed the DMG or MM. Other systems are pretty much the same. So somehwere around a 40$ investment. 

And your argument that it could be as expensive is that the players might play different systems? Thats fine, but now we have to include all the other Wargames systems for expense- because 40k players branch out too. Warmahordes, Flames of War, Warhammer Fantasy, etc etc. - Table Top wargames loses that one.

Even the most expensive board games dont run higher than $100, and even then that's not the standard. 

And for CCG's, to play a standard game you don't need to have more than a starter deck. 


To play a standard game of 1,500pt 40k, you need hundreds of dollars in models, a good chunk of change in painting supplies, and dozens of hours of prep time for assembly and painting before you can get to play. And thats only one player.

Clearly the most expensive type of table-top hobby there is.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

gally912 said:


> The comparison shouldn't be to *ALL* hobbies, but to other tabletop hobbies.
> 
> RPG's, Boardgames, etc
> 
> In which case it is an expensive hobby.


Hang on - how do you work that one out? Are people that play 40K ONLY allowed to do other table top hobbies?

And while we are on the subject - how about comparing it to the table top hobbies you DIDNT mention - EG - model railways. Single engines set you back £200+ (I dont do it, my dad had a heart attack when he tried to buy stuff for my little brother, very little, - dont ask, second marriage and all that).



gally912 said:


> To *play* a traditional RPG, you need the players manual, about a dozen dice, and a pad of paper. Maybe a model. I've yet to run into a player who needed the DMG or MM. Other systems are pretty much the same. So somehwere around a 40$ investment.


The problem is, your arguement falls appart - either the DM is a 'player' or hes not. As a DM I have best part of £4000 worth of manuals - thats all the way back to 2nd edition (I inherited the first edition ones, cant include those).

Do I HAVE to have them, no - but thats the point of a hobby, I dont HAVE to do one at all.

If you average the cost to the DM with the cost to the players you are looking at FAR more than 40$. Hell I have £90 worth of 4th edition D&D books and I dont even play the damn game.
And that assumes you stick to one game....

So if you say its 40$ for a player - its more like 600$ for the DM...




> Even the most expensive board games dont run higher than $100, and even then that's not the standard.


And the use you get from 1 board game compared to 40K is? Seriously - My mum has litterally 2 wardrobes full of board games, she gets a few each year to play on birthdays and at christmas - she must have £2-3,000 worth of games collected over the last 30+ years.



> And for CCG's, to play a standard game you don't need to have more than a starter deck


And to play a 'starter' game of 40K all you need is assault on black reach (And that works for 2 players so you need 2 starter sets) and yes, assault on black reach is more expensive than 2 starter decks - but its more than 1 hobby (will explain below). 



What most people utterly forget when saying 'X' is cheaper or 'Y' is better, is that GW (and other wargame manufactures) are providing TWO hobbies for the price of one.

On the one side is the game, on the other side is the modelling and painting. Its a group hobby AND a private hobby.

So, lets compare - can you do CCC by yourself? Nope, not unless you bought the game online - and thats a whole separate cost involved there. Can you play MOST board games by yourself - nope.

ETC ETC.

Nothing is directly comparable to GW appart from other minature war games - and then you have to consider quality of models, the rules etc.

Still think its expensive?


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Wusword77 said:


> Even there it's really not. Take RPGs like D&D for instance. You need 3 core books to play ($35-$40 a peice), but there are a TON of additional books (at $25-$35 a peice) you can pick up to enhance your playing. Thats also assuming you don't want to then pick up another RPG like Deathwatch, Exalted, World of Darkness, Pathfinder, BattleTech, or any of the others available. Plus thats not even including purchasing models to represent your characters in on your table.
> 
> Boardgames could be cheaper, but only if you're playing things by Mattel. The really fun boardgames tend to run much higher then the stuff you find at Target.
> 
> And you can't even compare the cost of a CCG to Warhammer. Warhammer isn't even in the same league of expense as a game like MtG.


Tell me about MtG, a bloke i knew who was a MtG junkie would walk in and buy a minimum of 20 boxes on every expansion and core lines.

But it is all relative.

One thing that Maidel has mentioned is model railways.

I wanted to get into collecting Locomotive Engines, not the carriages, just the Engines.

So i walked into Hobbyco to look at the prices, fuck me, they are expensive, i saw some very nice Locomotive Engines over $1,250, the average price was around $700, so i made an off the cuff comment to a train collecter about the price and he said if you love something that much the cost should not matter.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Maidel said:


> Hang on - how do you work that one out? Are people that play 40K ONLY allowed to do other table top hobbies?


No, but I think it's fair to compare apples to apples.  Someone mentioned it not expensive compared to power-boating, which is an absurd comparison. Hell, I'm sure THAT's not expensive compared to recreational spaceflight. 



> And while we are on the subject - how about comparing it to the table top hobbies you DIDNT mention - EG - model railways. Single engines set you back £200+ (I dont do it, my dad had a heart attack when he tried to buy stuff for my little brother, very little, - dont ask, second marriage and all that).


I guess I draw a different line there. 40k in terms of *Modelling* is inexpensive. 40k in terms of a table-top *Game* IS expensive. Again, apples.


> The problem is, your arguement falls appart - either the DM is a 'player' or hes not. As a DM I have best part of £4000 worth of manuals - thats all the way back to 2nd edition (I inherited the first edition ones, cant include those).
> 
> Do I HAVE to have them, no - but thats the point of a hobby, I dont HAVE to do one at all.
> 
> ...


Trust me, I'm aware. I've DM'd for almost 10 years now. My point is the entry-level cost for a standard, full fledged game. Take an average gaming group of 4 players and a DM. Lets say everbody buys a PHB and the DM buys all 3 core books. Plus dice, I'd put the cost at around $300 for the gaming group.

How much would it cost for 5 people to each build a painted 1500pt army?



> And the use you get from 1 board game compared to 40K is? Seriously - My mum has litterally 2 wardrobes full of board games, she gets a few each year to play on birthdays and at christmas - she must have £2-3,000 worth of games collected over the last 30+ years.


 Well, I've sure had plenty of hours with Axis and Alies, Settlers of the Catan, and Risk in a whole bunch of different forms. 



> And to play a 'starter' game of 40K all you need is assault on black reach (And that works for 2 players so you need 2 starter sets) and yes, assault on black reach is more expensive than 2 starter decks - but its more than 1 hobby (will explain below).


Do you honestly feel AoBR is a full representation of the game? The two armies dont even have matching points! AoBR is more akin to D&D Basic, or Monopoly Jr. 



> What most people utterly forget when saying 'X' is cheaper or 'Y' is better, is that GW (and other wargame manufactures) are providing TWO hobbies for the price of one.
> 
> On the one side is the game, on the other side is the modelling and painting. Its a group hobby AND a private hobby.
> 
> ...


From the modeling perspective, I'll give you the argument there. Though if GW matched the quality of most train sets I'd say you'd hit a much higher price point, but thats not here nor there. 

But in terms of table-top gaming, it is still expensive. To take your example of a DM dropping $600- that allows for almost an infinite amount of variety and potential gaming. Really taking full-on to the hobby. Dropping $600 on a 40k army will net you a single, tournament size army, with little room for customization.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

gally912 said:


> No, but I think it's fair to compare apples to apples. Someone mentioned it not expensive compared to power-boating, which is an absurd comparison. Hell, I'm sure THAT's not expensive compared to recreational spaceflight.


The powerboating is a bit of an excessive comparason I will agree - but 'hobbies are hobbies' so I would compare it to anything that people do as a hobby - computers, cars, bikes, games, reading, sports etc etc - its not the cheapest of them, but its far from the most expensive.



> I guess I draw a different line there. 40k in terms of *Modelling* is inexpensive. 40k in terms of a table-top *Game* IS expensive. Again, apples.


But thats my point - if you want to play 40K the 'game' then all you need is the £30 rule book, and a codex - you can proxie all the models using bits of card - then its comparable to a board game. If you are only looking at one aspect of the hobby, sure, its BLOODY expensive as a board game.



> Well, I've sure had plenty of hours with Axis and Alies, Settlers of the Catan, and Risk in a whole bunch of different forms.


Which, as I said before are all games that require two people - whereas 40K is a game AND an 'art' (or whatever you want to call it).



> Do you honestly feel AoBR is a full representation of the game? The two armies dont even have matching points! AoBR is more akin to D&D Basic, or Monopoly Jr.


AH, hang on - I was comparing it to Magic or Yugio (how ever the stupid thing is spelt) and having just a basic starter set.



> From the modeling perspective, I'll give you the argument there. Though if GW matched the quality of most train sets I'd say you'd hit a much higher price point, but thats not here nor there.


Id beg to disagree on 'quality' of train sets vs GW minatures - they are designed to represent different things - So GW figures have better detail on them, but are less 'in proportion' wheras train sets are specifically in exact proportion, but the detail is lower - in my opinion. However I would like to say that my knowledge of train sets is limited to buying birthday presents for my little brother (who lives about 400 miles away, so I dont regularly see them).



> But in terms of table-top gaming, it is still expensive. To take your example of a DM dropping $600- that allows for almost an infinite amount of variety and potential gaming. Really taking full-on to the hobby. Dropping $600 on a 40k army will net you a single, tournament size army, with little room for customization.


My view on that is that games are what you make of them, irrelavent of how much you spend. For me, a single £30 box of 10 marines (space wolves in my case) represents a daunting 60+hours of modeling time alone - about 6hrs per marine is standard for me. Im not sure any D&D book ever got 60hours of time out of me - but thats because I read a HELL of a lot faster than I paint.


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## Rolando (Jun 6, 2011)

I think you should be comparing WH to other miniatures wargames... because of the modeling and art stuff and needing at least two players with iminatures, etc. it gives more entertainment per dollar than many other cheaper games. Althoug roleplaying games are the cheapest of all... entertainment per dollar per player at least, even if you dont play them you may end reading the books; most good RPG's are good, entertaining reading.

Comparing WH to other miniature wargames it will be the expensiest of all other miniatures games (maybe), because other manufacturesrs of pewter and/or plastic miniatures, with a lot of detail (and in fact better sculpting, because of deformed WH heads, arms, etc.) cost a lot less... like 45 miniatures for only 15.00$ and the rulebooks are around 30.00$ with all the armies (no need of a separate codex) and rules... with extra free game stuff online (like new armies, updates, new units, etc.)

Even then I like WH a lot, but is not cheap compared to other wargames I have and play.


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## Luisjoey (Dec 3, 2010)

I think we should think about the hobby comparison, the money you spend to a normal play, and the fun from the amount expended. 

For Example, WH you spend around 400$ for having a 1500 pts of gaming needing around a month or more to assemble and paint. Calculate the numbers of games you play a week or a month. have lot of social interaction with your friends or game mate. 


Now compare to a Computer Game, You make one big invest for the pc (maybe 2000$-3000$) and then for the game around 50-70$, is ready to play but usually have little or none social interaction. Is easey to play because you put and play. 

Comparing to other wargames

Compared to D&D miniatures or Star wars (also heroclix and similars), were they come in boosters (around 12$ each one) you need around 10-12 boosters to get in play (around 120$) but those games where made to be collectible so each 3-4 month you´ll be expending around 120$ to get into the metagame and figure out in tournaments, around 360$ every year (dismissing the fact you are trying to collect something). Also you need to trade. 

For Card Games, is almos the same since is collectible and you could play them almost anywhere, even boosters are pretty cheap in comparison, there is also LOTS MORE choices and cards you need to get, making more strong the trading part. CCG have a terrible factor from the really useless cards. 

Comparing to napoleonics, WWII or other historical, depending on the setting you need to find the company first and need to make more modifications to get a decent army, some pieces don´t even exist and if you mix company miniatures you could have pretty different army. they also need assemble and painting and they don´t have starters.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

gally912 said:


> That's not really true, because the entry level for a standard game has much disparity.


My understanding was we were discussing the cost of the hobby. Not the start up cost, but the entire cost.



> And for CCG's, to play a standard game you don't need to have more than a starter deck.
> 
> To play a standard game of 1,500pt 40k, you need hundreds of dollars in models, a good chunk of change in painting supplies, and dozens of hours of prep time for assembly and painting before you can get to play. And thats only one player.
> 
> Clearly the most expensive type of table-top hobby there is.


For a start up cost. While you only need a single "starter deck" to play a CCG that doesn't make the hobby. To play a game of Warhammer you only need 1hq and 2 troop choices, which if you're playing Space Marines will cost you $70(US) for models plus a BGB ($57.75) for a total of $127.75. We can agree that the hobby would be no fun if thats all we had to use in the game, so the players buy more. Having one deck in CCG is no fun, so players buy boxes of cards to build many decks. Plus CCGs have the added problem if phasing out sets of cards after a time, forcing players to buy new sets every few months.



gally912 said:


> Trust me, I'm aware. I've DM'd for almost 10 years now. My point is the entry-level cost for a standard, full fledged game. Take an average gaming group of 4 players and a DM. Lets say everbody buys a PHB and the DM buys all 3 core books. Plus dice, I'd put the cost at around $300 for the gaming group.
> 
> How much would it cost for 5 people to each build a painted 1500pt army?


They don't need 1500 points though, just 1 hq and 2 troops for a total of $127.75 if playing Space Marines per player. You can't use bare minimum for RPGs and then require that 40k would use more then the bare minimum.

Plus, you haven't factored in the DM and players purchasing mini's for use in the RPG. While it is not required by the rules to have mini's to play the game the added cost could easily double or more.



> But in terms of table-top gaming, it is still expensive. To take your example of a DM dropping $600- that allows for almost an infinite amount of variety and potential gaming. Really taking full-on to the hobby. Dropping $600 on a 40k army will net you a single, tournament size army, with little room for customization.


Considering start up costs, Warhammer is a very expensive hobby. Once you move past that start up cost Warhammer cost takes a nose dive because you have few expenses to continue to play. Once you have your army (lets assume 2000 points) and your required books (BGB and Codex) you only may need to make another purchase when the BGB or codex gets an update (so twice every 6 years lets say). Your still in the hobby as you can still play games (both casual and competitive).

Compare that to a game like MtG, which releases (on average) 4 new sets per year (3 Expert and 1 Core). Purchasing a single box of cards, which will not give you 1 of each card, costs $90US (give or take). Meaning you will spend, if you only buy 1 box of each set and no other cards $360 per year. Most players spend way more then that on individual cards to complete their decks. This also assumes they are generally playing Standard format. If they play Type 1 (Vintage/Legacy for you new players) the price of buying the cards to construct a single deck could go into the thousands of dollars for competitive play. If you don't update your cards you can't play in the majority of competitive formats and your hobby becomes vastly limited.


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## Rolando (Jun 6, 2011)

Luisjoey said:


> Comparing to napoleonics, WWII or other historical, depending on the setting you need to find the company first and need to make more modifications to get a decent army, some pieces don´t even exist and if you mix company miniatures you could have pretty different army. they also need assemble and painting and they don´t have starters.


Well actually the historic line is really big... and in fact less modifications, because historics are about real troops, so nameless soldiers and units... people make mods just as in most cases in WH, fur fun. And important history characters are ussually supplied by the manufacturers in most lines.

There are docens of manufacturers in plastic and metal, and many specialise in a particular age. And if one dont have the models other have it... some manufacturers make just the models other more "mainstream" manufacturers dont make.

there are starters... 45 miniatures in a box for 15.00$ with a functional mix of miniatures sounds like a good starter to me. And some companies make "vs" type boxes.

the painting and modelling is not diferent to WH, in fact thats preciselly why it's a good comparission.

There are less gamers and the hobby is (ussually) less passionate than WH (is less personal when it's not your custom army but an historical one) but there are enough to play with... and lots of conventions and stuff.

And a lot cheaper... by the way :grin:


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## Luisjoey (Dec 3, 2010)

Rolando said:


> And a lot cheaper... by the way :grin:


Well maybe DBA (De bellis antiquitae) is pretty cheap and with less than 30 bucks you could assemble a decent army, but is that the level of wargame you want? 

There are levels of wargaming, even in warhammer where if you asume to play between 1500 and 2000 pts (that is pretty aceptable and competitive) you spend around 400-600$ once and usually last for long time. 

In comparison there is flame of war (WWII game), even been a smaller have a complex system comparable to warhammer and if you want to play you need to get the right army and the right units to make historical formations, so it could be expensive being the faction/division starter around or over the 200$


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Board games: My mum also had a cupboard full of the traditional ones like scrabble, monopoly, and a few foreign ones like rummikub, and Mah Jongg which we played each sunday with a plate of chips and eggs. Cheap, family fun that could be reused over and over. If you are minded to play them regularly, they are a great investment.

I on the other hand, have Game of Thrones, Settlers, Puerto Rico, Death Angel, Mystery of the Abbey... all games you can happily play as if you're doing an RPG, and for a base cost to me of less than £50 each (including the expansions) are a very good investment, especially as I don't get out much with small child(ren) in the house. 

Comparing these games to my 40K / WHF habit: If I were starting right now, it'd be like buying a 500 - 1k army and going no further than that. Enough for a fun game of an evening, no more. Yes, it's more expensive, but I know that going in, I can read the price tag. That I choose to expand on this is up to me - its like getting Seafarers, Cities and Cathedrals, and Knights for Settlers. All expand on the game, push the price up, but are in the end expansions that are voluntary, not required. 

So, what am I saying with this little ramble about board games? Not sure, but I think what I'm saying is that basics to play games are what should be compared price-wise, as expansions are just that - expansions, not requirements


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

SilverTabby said:


> I on the other hand, have Game of Thrones, Settlers, Puerto Rico, Death Angel, Mystery of the Abbey... all games you can happily play as if you're doing an RPG, and for a base cost to me of less than £50 each (including the expansions) are a very good investment, especially as I don't get out much with small child(ren) in the house.


But again, you are completely ignoring half of the hobby.

If you want to play 40K as a BOARD GAME then all you need is a rule book and a codex, and a pile of scraps of paper.

The other 50% (99% in my case) of the hobby is the modeling side - something which is completely alien to any board games.

And thats the point - wargamming is NOT comparable to board games because of course it going to cost more because you are buying lots and lots of intricate models which are supposed to be part of the fun.


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## Luisjoey (Dec 3, 2010)

remember that WARHAMMER is more WARGAME than boardgame. 

"why playing monopoly if tic-tac-toe is cheaper!" 

the cheapest of hobbies are the PC games!


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Luisjoey said:


> the cheapest of hobbies are the PC games!


:shok::shok::shok:


Sorry - did you forget the little thing called the PC...

Most 'gaming' PCs are more than an entire company of space marines!


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

Sorry Maidel, I was under the impression we were discussing the cost of the hobby, not the content. In context of the basics of being able to do the hobby in question, my post is perfectly valid :wink:


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

Maidel said:


> :shok::shok::shok:
> 
> 
> Sorry - did you forget the little thing called the PC...
> ...


What he said!!

Though i suppose he may mean 'PC Games after the fact' but even then they are not cheap. Unless your buying old or second hand games which can still cost a pretty penny depending on the game.

SGMAlice


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

SilverTabby said:


> Sorry Maidel, I was under the impression we were discussing the cost of the hobby, not the content. In context of the basics of being able to do the hobby in question, my post is perfectly valid :wink:


Oh dont get me wrong - there are TONS of hobbies that are cheaper than GWs games.

My point is, and always has been, that the game is NOT expensive for what you get.

If I said to you that a hobby cost £100 and that was all you would ever pay, most people would agree thats not a bad price.

However if I then told you that all that £100 got you was a mile of string and 50 horse chestnut trees so you could play conkers every year - well, you might then decide its not a good price to pay.


So the price of something has to be tempered by what you get for it. A board game that costs £50 is only worth £50 if you have someone to play against - otherwise its just and expensive box.

£50 worth of models and paint can be used by yourself for HOURS before needing to find an opponent, and thats always been my point - its not expensive for what you get from it.


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## fatmantis (Jun 26, 2009)

i get quite pissed off when i read things like this, first people forget this is a user pays society right? no matter what we want or do we have to pay thats just the truth of the matter, we dont pay we dont get! its that simple. so in my opinion wh40k really is not that expensive, if you really take you time to build and paint you can get you moneys worth out of each model. expample i live in china so to buy a battlebox its 600rmb now thats not really that much money, but its can take me a mounth or 2 to put it togehter and paint it, so heres my math, 600rmb/days=x perday now i match that to how much my friends drink every day(beer) and guess what they spend more on beer per day than i spend on 40k, and i get something to show for it, so whos the bigger fool? so match what you do to something else break it down and you will see its really an inexpensive hooby. well thats just my logic


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

SGMAlice said:


> What he said!!
> 
> Though i suppose he may mean 'PC Games after the fact' but even then they are not cheap. Unless your buying old or second hand games which can still cost a pretty penny depending on the game.
> 
> SGMAlice


I think he was talking about pirateing games after the fact. Then games are cheap.


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## Rolando (Jun 6, 2011)

Luisjoey said:


> There are levels of wargaming, even in warhammer where if you asume to play between 1500 and 2000 pts (that is pretty aceptable and competitive) you spend around 400-600$ once and usually last for long time.


Well I agree with the level of wargame stuff you are talking, and sure FoW may be around the same cost... but on a similar scale (1:72 or 1:48 that WH is) there are many other manufacturers of plastic figures that sell more than 20 minis for less than 20.00$ even in the fantasy/sci-fi genre (zvesda for example, although their sci-fy/fantasy line is almost GW cost)

The thing is... there must be some field for comparission, but wargames vs sport cars or even boardgames is not a good comparission... miniature wargames vs miniature wargames, even in a different scale is not too far away.

Each wargame offer something the others dont have (in the case of warhammer 40k I think the fluff is that speccial thing and of course the fan base is the biggest there is I think)... comparing apples to apples, just the cost of things... GW is at least 25% priciest than most other miniatures wargames... models and rulebooks.


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## Luisjoey (Dec 3, 2010)

SGMAlice said:


> What he said!!
> 
> Though i suppose he may mean 'PC Games after the fact' but even then they are not cheap. Unless your buying old or second hand games which can still cost a pretty penny depending on the game.
> 
> SGMAlice


Or something EVIL from russia hacks with love! :stinker:

But for computer games is pretty cheap, the very expensive thing is have the computer that would last for 3 or 4 years until you need a good upgrade or maybe a new one.

About games, buying them is around 40-70 usd, the price of a terminator company or a stormraven... a single unit in the game.

compare that to the fun factor of a videogame where everything is made for you, you don´t need to assemble, paint or else. 

For example i got dragon age 1 and i had 100 hours of fun, for warhammer i expended several times that game cost, and expended lots painting (a particular pleasure) but had less than 100 hours of fun in the last 5 years i been playing 40k. 

But personally i rather a warhammer play than actually any videogame, even that is pretty harder to play, maybe that is the enchant.


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## death_from_below (Sep 18, 2011)

40k is not so bad in the uk or the US but in australia? its about DOUBLE THE PRICE not even exaggerating. i currently have no scenery of my own to fight over and was looking at the realm of battle gameboard, some woods, craters, a few buildings and suddenly im looking at 1000 dollars. not only is this hideous but it is completely unjustifiable by GW who have all these lame excuses about tax and its all bullshit, UK VAT is double australian GST and this is just GW sucking money out of people who still buy large amounts of 40k in australia. i myself have cut down by about %70 and have joined a petition on facebook to lower prices and i encourage all australian gamers to join as its quite constructive and not just rants and hate we will even have an interview with GW CEO mark wells at some point this year.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

it might be cheap for someone with a fulltime job, but when you started playing in high school and are still a student like i still am, you suddenly see the prices slowly hicking out of reach for my wallet.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Maybe they should double the prices? That would keep out all the Riff Raff. :wink:

Want a cheap hobby? Play tic-tac-toe.

Incoming flame, unish:


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

It all depends on your situation. If your making money, then no, it's not.

As a current university student, its expensive. I don't spend loads of money on drink (maybe £40 a week max?) and I don't touch drugs. It used to be far, far cheaper when I first started out, now it's just a joke. Paying £10 for a single, plastic character sucks 

I can't start this hobby again until I leave uni basically.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Machiavellismx said:


> I can't start this hobby again until I leave uni basically.


I'm asuming this means you sold off your previous army for next to no money, like many people do, and regret it now?

Just a wild stab in the dark here, I have no idea if it's the case... but I have seen that happen to a lot of people. They are tired of the current meta-game because of a bad streak of games or a painting rut and sell their army for less then half the original value.

My advice: if you recognize yourself in this situation, don't make the kneejerk reaction of selling your stuff. Put them in a tidy box and store it untill the bug starts itching again. It will after a while...


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Hobbies are expensive there's no two ways about it. Compared to a lot of them 40k is relatively cheap, especially on a per hour/ money for time basis. You can spend hours painting your models, they will last forever, once bought wont be superseded and can be used again and again. 

40k has the prices it does because they're such a big business (comparatively speaking to other mini makers). They have to pay sculptors, painters, artists, writers as well as all the 'regular' kind of employees like store staff, lawyers etc. Then there's all the infrastructure. You do have to admit they do make some of the finest, most consistent models in the world.

I personally budget for $50 a week for warhammer (not that i buy something every week, i usually save up a few weeks worth or buy something every odd month).


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## Coldshrike (Sep 9, 2011)

I think WH is expensive for what you get (A bunch of plastic men), especially for us Australians, but in terms of time spent I have to admit I've spent a lot more money on a much shorter term enjoyment (say, a night out). Wouldn't say it's a cheap hobby, but you can definetly get your money's worth. And I've deifinetly spent more money on video games over the years, so I won't complain about it.


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

elmir said:


> I'm asuming this means you sold off your previous army for next to no money, like many people do, and regret it now?
> 
> Just a wild stab in the dark here, I have no idea if it's the case... but I have seen that happen to a lot of people. They are tired of the current meta-game because of a bad streak of games or a painting rut and sell their army for less then half the original value.
> 
> My advice: if you recognize yourself in this situation, don't make the kneejerk reaction of selling your stuff. Put them in a tidy box and store it untill the bug starts itching again. It will after a while...


Nope, I still have them all  I would never sell my models, they're a part of my childhood/teen years and I still love going home and seeing them all displayed. My dad did a similar thing when he was a kid but sold them, and he's always told me how much he regretted it. I'm lucky I had someone like that to guide me in that regard.

I've never lost the itch either, I know what you mean there, it's just finding the time and money at the moment. I haven't played for about 4 years now, but in that time I still buy codex's and always read the novels, I love the world and its setting. When I do start again it's just I'm gonna wanna do it from pretty much scratch. I'm a much, much better painter and modeller now, and I'd want to do a totally new army and I'd have to buy a lot of paints, models and brushes 

thanks for the advice though, it's always good to receive it from experience modellers, every bit helps. I honestly can't wait to play again, I love looking at the new models, conversions and battle reports on here.


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## Coldshrike (Sep 9, 2011)

I leant that same advise from my uncle. When he was growing up he sold off all his Star Wars figures, and he's regretted it for the last 20 years. May have made me a bit of a compulsive hoarder, but I've realzed that everything has it's value and I'll never just through away something I've spent this kind of money and time on.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Machiavellismx said:


> I've never lost the itch either, I know what you mean there, it's just finding the time and money at the moment. I haven't played for about 4 years now, but in that time I still buy codex's and always read the novels, I love the world and its setting. When I do start again it's just I'm gonna wanna do it from pretty much scratch. I'm a much, much better painter and modeller now, and I'd want to do a totally new army and I'd have to buy a lot of paints, models and brushes


 
There's alway the option to strip old models if your painting skills have advanced a lot in the meanwhile. Fully from scratch is indeed pretty expensive... I had to do that with my GKs since over 2/3 of my models became obsolete with that codex. 

Ofcourse the release of a brand new spanking codex is always the best catalyst to start any project. I don't know what army you play, but you'll often get into the swing of it relatively cheaply by just stripping a single small squad and having a go at a repaint. Or even refurbishing an old squad if that's an option. 

Finding time is another thing altogether. It's a resource that's even more important then money


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

Machiavelli. At Games Workshop, Manchester they have pretty much the full range of paints and a host of brushses and all the tools available for the public to use on their painting table, which seats six people.
Obviously it's there to hook people into the hobby. But seeing as you already are, use it to your advantage.

By the way, what is your army you have now and the army that you see yourself collecting next?


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

elmir said:


> There's alway the option to strip old models if your painting skills have advanced a lot in the meanwhile. Fully from scratch is indeed pretty expensive... I had to do that with my GKs since over 2/3 of my models became obsolete with that codex.


I did think about doing that, but I used to play Chaos and honestly I'm just sick of painting Space Marines, Chaos Marines, and other such variants. I think I'll do what you said though, and pick up a basic box of troops and some paints, do it step by step.




Pssyche said:


> Machiavelli. At Games Workshop, Manchester they have pretty much the full range of paints and a host of brushses and all the tools available for the public to use on their painting table, which seats six people.
> Obviously it's there to hook people into the hobby. But seeing as you already are, use it to your advantage.
> 
> By the way, what is your army you have now and the army that you see yourself collecting next?



Hey! Cheers for the advice - I never knew that, and I've actually been in there as well. I think I will, it'd defo be a great help. And I've been thinking about this for a while, as I said I'm a bit bleh in regards to Space Marines and stuff as I've always done them, so I'm looking for a change. I was thinking either Tau, IG or Necrons. The Tau look really cool, with lots of conversion ideas and I like all the different paint schemes. Same with the IG, though I can't stand the basic Cadia troops, they just don't look like my kinda models.

I've been strongly thinking about Necrons though. Funny as I don't like Tomb Kings, but the idea of a whole host of terminator-like figures advancing over the ruins of a dead city sounds awesome. Plus, I think the models look very cool - the basic warriors, the Flayed Ones, Immortals, Pariahs, and especially the C'tan, are some of the best models I've seen. I noticed there's also a new codex sticky for them in the rumours part, if that's true, it might be the catalyst I need to get involved again.

Just thinking about it, I'm quite tempted to go to town tomorrow and buy a box of warriors now.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Is 40k an expensive hobby? Depends how you define expensive and what you would compare it to? Yes, it's expensive in that you're paying twenty odd quid for ten Marines or twelve Orks, and you might be paying around £200 for a decent army, but compare that to say a season ticket at even one of the smaller premiership football clubs and its not too different. 

Is it expensive compared to other wargames? Well that's a different question and would arguably depend on the game. I've spent maybe £100 so far on my small VBCW army and that's only for around 34 models, whereas for the same amount of money I was able to two thousand odd points of Orks of some mates, which added up to the earlier statements makes things seem even more confusing. 

Ultimately I'd say it depends where you're buying your 40k stuff from. GW and other retailers are generally more expensive than say Ebay or friends, but then again buying from the former can be quicker. To sum up I'd say 40k is as expensive as you make it, like most leisure activites.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

The Sullen One said:


> Is 40k an expensive hobby? Depends how you define expensive and what you would compare it to? Yes, it's expensive in that you're paying twenty odd quid for ten Marines or twelve Orks, and you might be paying around £200 for a decent army, but compare that to say a season ticket at even one of the smaller premiership football clubs and its not too different.


Some armies are more expensive than others though. I've spent over $1,500 USD (about £960.06) building about 2,250-2,500 points of Sisters. On the flip side I have the only army that can be used as a weapon if I'm ever mugged.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

I challenge you good sir! My weapon of choice will be my oldskewl metal khador. First one with a concussion, loses!


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

elmir said:


> I challenge you good sir! My weapon of choice will be my oldskewl metal khador. First one with a concussion, loses!


I meet you with my army bag filled with assorted Sisters, three Exorcists (the GW kind) two Penitent Engines, and a thick skull!


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Machiavellismx said:


> It all depends on your situation. If your making money, then no, it's not.
> 
> As a current university student, its expensive. I don't spend loads of money on drink (maybe £40 a week max?) and I don't touch drugs. It used to be far, far cheaper when I first started out, now it's just a joke. Paying £10 for a single, plastic character sucks
> 
> I can't start this hobby again until I leave uni basically.


 
When I was in school, I was lucky to be able to afford food and books. If entertainment wasn't free, I didn't partake.

The first time I bought WH40k models, I was a single, 2nd Lieutenant and had some spending money. But, the first thing I said was, "Wow, these models are expensive!" That was around 1998.

I guess compared to other detailed plastic models, WH40K is very expensive.... http://www.amazon.com/Hasegawa-72-M-1E1-Abrams-Tank/dp/B0006NGP2I/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1317530638&sr=8-11. That model is very detailed and a fraction of the cost of a predator.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Yet there is no game system behind it. Models like that are cheap as you don't need many sculptors. The ones they do have just need to copy an existing real world design, likely on a commission basis. GW have so many other costs involved.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Price of plastic: £2,000 /tonne
Price of tin: £32,000 /tonne
Price of avg. resin: £1,500 /tonne

In switching from metal minis to resin ones, prices were increased by 15%-25% across the board. Those who think the manpower to work this material excuses the cost disparity of the material need economics 101, stat.


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## Coldshrike (Sep 9, 2011)

At the end of the day, you're not just paying for a little plastic man, you're paying for the rules, the advice at your FLGS, the fluff. It's a little better if you look at it that way.


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## Scathainn (Feb 21, 2010)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Price of plastic: £2,000 /tonne
> Price of tin: £32,000 /tonne
> Price of avg. resin: £1,500 /tonne
> 
> In switching from metal minis to resin ones, prices were increased by 15%-25% across the board. Those who think the manpower to work this material excuses the cost disparity of the material need economics 101, stat.


Except the raising of prices and the introduction of Finecast were not related. Finecast happened to be released when Games Workshop was having its yearly price increase, hence reactions like this.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

the question has no right or wrong answer, it depends on the individual with the cash making the purchase, if you believe its expensive it is,if you dont think its expensive then it isnt. If you dont have the cash to buy the models then its pointless complaining about price on forums because its not going to change GW's mind, because to them you are a lost cause, there are plenty of people who still buy GW's models and are happy to do so at the price in front of them, i would even go as far as to say most people are still buying the models in store at full RRP in most cases.

We have this thread in one form or another almost constantly and the end conclusion is the same, some people think the prices are expensive and some people dont give a shit,there isnt a person on earth who wouldnt like to see things cost less,i think thats a fairly universal rule,but year on year GW will put prices up (along with pretty much every other retailer) to protect its profit margin and keep the shareholders happy, players will assume GW is gouging them to make massive profits and some of us will look at the company accounts online and see that compared to most companies they make very little margin in the end because the models have to support an infrastructure, which brings in new players and gives them somewhere to game and congregate until they stop suckling the store teat and join a club or game at home with friends.


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## r9a9g9e (Aug 31, 2008)

All I got to say is when it was $20-$40 to get some models, or 1 big/cool one it was getting a lot of my money. $20+ for one, and $40-$60 for the same stuff is kinda stupid. Used video games are $10-$40 or $60 new. I get good use out of my games, and have only so much money to spend on hobbies, not including time to spend on them. 

I can spend less money on video games and play them when I have time, or more on models and spend less time playing them. Life does not fully allow for a ton of wargaming with friends. 40+ hours a week + wife & child= very little time for hobby. Thus $$$ on a game that I get a chance to play 1 time every 2 months will be spent on a video game that I can play for an hour or two every day.(on average)

So that, in my humble opinion, is why it is a expensive hobby.

when NECRONS get updated GW will get about $200 more of my cash though :headbutt:


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

I would hate to know how much my Warhammer 40K and Fantasy stuff cost me.

I mean i would say that my 20,000 point Chaos Space Marine Army would have set me back thousands, then on top of that i have 7,000 points of 40K Orks.

But in the end of the day, i can't complain as it gives me so much pleasure. Also noone put a gun against my head and forced me to buy the stuff.


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## Silens (Dec 26, 2010)

Been playing 40k for almost 5 years and Fantasy for about 5 months. I've spent about... £200-£300 on Fantasy. On 40k I've spent about... £800? I'm 17 and I've been playing since I was 12/13


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Scathainn said:


> Except the raising of prices and the introduction of Finecast were not related. Finecast happened to be released when Games Workshop was having its yearly price increase, hence reactions like this.


That may be true, but you've got to see that when a company saves a lot of money in this way, basically regressing to an inferior product to overcome costs - it looks bad. Maybe the average consumer doesn't have the willpower or knowledge to be critical towards this company practice, (and let's face it, they make zero effort to be transparent) but it's definitely creating waves in the upper management circles. Potential employees may turn GW away in the future, bright people who would not work for a company that has drifted so far from it's roots.

This however, is irrelevant to the fact that arbitrary price rises without any other motivation than "more profit", is crude. Especially since GW investors are notorious for taking back what they can and not reinvesting, and retention of capital is minimal to improve the company and it's product.

Currently, GW is a dead end street, with CEO's playing chicken against their own customers in a way very few companies would.



Coldshrike said:


> At the end of the day, you're not just paying for a little plastic man, you're paying for


OK, I'll buy into this, let's examine:



Coldshrike said:


> the rules


The rules publishing continuum of GW is the worst in it's class. Not only do they have editors without any real balance priority, they only have 3 active writers for WH40K. Those are alarm bells, no, alarm _gongs_ - and waiting 3-6 months between every new codex is simply unacceptable because you have worked yourself into a corner on the writing side.

Furthermore, GW isn't attracting new, competent, writers. This is no doubt in part due to their excessive (and abusive) use of trainees wherever they possibly can, but also that their intellectual property is stagnant, there is no dynamic, there is no creative room for writers.

Take one look at Warmachine for rules publishing, take a look at Magic: The Gathering for it's independent rulings organization (the DCI) and look to both of those games for the focus on competitive-able games that have pro circuits where the top dogs have an income from simply playing.

This type of game draws competition, competition draws better writers, better writers write better stories, better stories please the fans, and pleasing the fans brings in the bucks, which they in turn reinvest a chunk to improve themselves.

All of these are foreign notions to Games Workshop, who are eventually going to disappear once Warmachine reaches their level of miniature sculpting and production capacity.



Coldshrike said:


> the advice at your FLGS


I take it you mean the "ubiquitous" GW store, as all games come through an FLGS. I've said it before, and I will happily repeat it til the grave. Games Workshop stores are marketing lunacy 101. They are redundant, they bring little value to the franchise, and they most definitely can not field enough knowledgeable manpower at these stores.

I live 1,600 kilometres - about 1,000 imperial miles from the closest GW store. The vast, vast, utter majority of gamers are still not within a day's reach by car from such a store. Yet we are in essence paying for these stores. It's a kind of corporate communism.

I've been to the GW store in Berlin, Copenhagen and Oslo, all 3 of these basic sheds with just a few tables and extremely in-your-face-advertising and loud mouth employees with zero knowledge about the game.

And let's face it. GW's pipe dream of becoming the IKEA of gaming will never, ever happen. They develop too little. They are cumbersome at best when it comes to corporate management, and their marketing division is one of the most horrendously misguided to grace our green earth in a long while.

GW store facilities are their biggest expense, by far. For what? 2 tables in the average town, noisy employees, Gestapo rules and daycare for irresponsible parent's kids.

The few benefits of having these stores are vastly outweighed by the bad. When you look at GW's:

-prices
-the raw cost of their production
-number of employees
-Incredibly slow R&D and publishing arm
-the black holesque lack of advertising
-the contents (and price) of their little month-to-month advertisement leaflet
-the way they misprioritize layout of the store structure in every case of building

-and finally, the best part: little profit!

It is apparent to me that you don't have to have a master's degree in corporate economics and 20 years experience to see that this is unfortunately one of the saddest cases of mismanagement in current western markets.



Coldshrike said:


> the fluff.


Well. There was a time where I would agree, but those times are gone, mostly. Once every now and then we get a treat, but they're now few and far between. Black Library's writer crop is inexperienced and don't commit too much to research, but some still perform admirably. The Codex writers are more consistent in this regard (except of course Mat Ward, who could kill off an army's entire allure in a single pen stroke...) but the amount of fluff produced for a codex isn't much.

Add to that, Black Library are consistently refusing to write about anything interesting, AKA. "not Space Marines". Ahaha, I jest. That is a personal opinion, but the variety is absent still.

Which is my next point. Warhammer 40K is in a crisis. The variety to the game is dying. With every video game tie-in, sticking space marine skins on averagey RTS or FPS games, there are thousands of young boys and girls who enter the 40K scene with the single-minded intention of playing Space Marines.

I've harped about this tirelessly in the past, but I won't this time, after all - most of those who've read this are Space Marine players...

But anyway. A rant for a rant.



Coldshrike said:


> It's a little better if you look at it that way.


Not even if I tried to go to the brink of painkiller overdose, would it be better in any way.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> ...there are thousands of young boys and girls who enter the 40K scene with the single-minded intention of playing Space Marines.


Uh, problem? You say it as if it was a bad thing? 

I would choose my plastic space men (in space) any day over those rainbow Elkdar, or mentally retarded Orkz.


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## Silens (Dec 26, 2010)

Doelago said:


> Uh, problem? You say it as if it was a bad thing?
> 
> I would choose my plastic space men (in space) any day over those rainbow Elkdar, or mentally retarded Orkz.


He's not saying Space Marines are bad. I, along with a lot of 40k players with a mental age over that of 14, have distaste for the fact that most little kids that come into the shop with play space marines and can't play very well and have a shoddy looking army and will bitch and whine a moan when their super-heroes with guns lose every single game because they decide to battle someone with common sense who will almost always destroy them. This is coming from a player who has just started collecting Space Marines, but I'm not going for Ultramarines. I'm not making my own chapter. I've done my research. I'll follow fluff and I'll paint my models with a method which doesn't include dunking my men in a pot of Ultramarines blue and then adding two white dots for eyes and thinking I've painted a masterpiece. 

The club I run in school currently has about four 40k players. At least two of these play space marines, maybe even the third one. Luckily, there are some older kids coming into club this year which I am enjoying. The best painted models in the club (other than those of the people running the club) still are pretty crude. I'm tempted to run painting club again, but last year I did it a few times and it was a complete disaster. It consisted of me and one other boy sitting there and painting whilst all the other kids debated on their colour scheme. 

Games Workshop have made Space Marines their major selling point for Warhammer 40,000, because their target consumer is the next 12 year old kid that walks into the shop with their parents' disposable income because he saw the big men in power armour on the posters in the windows. I think that either a) he/she will leave uninterested b) he/she will leave on the brink of crying because mummy said no c) he/she will leave with space marines or d) he/she will leave with the promise of space marines to come. It's not often I see a kid with an army that isn't Space Marines. The last kid I saw leaving Games Workshop with an army which wasn't space marines was myself about 5 years ago with a box of 3 Tyranid Gaunts and a beaming smile.

Black Library barely focus on any of the races other than the Space Marines, and rarely won't include the imperium to any significant extent in their books. The new range of 'Space Marine Battle Novels'. I think the only book I've read based on the 40k universe which wasn't about Space Marines was Farseer (For the record, it was a fantastic book) and even that had Chaos Space Marines in it for a sizable chunk. 

One thing I will say, is kudos to GW for making the Fire Warrior game before they made Space Marine. I've heard very little about that game, but apparently it's pretty good. I own Space Marine myself, and I really don't like it. The campaign is so boring, I still haven't brought myself to complete it! The online is fun for a little while, but again it gets boring. It's no competition to some other games coming out over the period of these few months. There's Gears of War 3, Halo, Skyrim and probably some more which kick Space Marine out of the sky. I'm a big Halo fan, and it honestly doesn't get boring; there are around 10 competitive playlists, 4 co-operative playlists, MLG playlists and even DLC specific playlists. Space Marine has... 4 games types? If that? Gears of War 3 is a freaking amazing game. Each game is different and the game physics alter per character.. It's freaking amazing.


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## Lubacca (Sep 4, 2011)

You know I can say that I've easily dropped 2k on this game in the last year. I've traded I've sold, I've bought second hand. I enjoy the challeyed some Vnge to getting things, painting and actually just TALKING to smart people (people here and who play Table Top for the most part are intelligent)

I played some VS ccg, WoW, Ps3/360 and this is the only hobby where I feel like I have something to SHOW for it when the end of the day comes


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## robpfffff (Oct 1, 2011)

....i usually spend 50-100 dollars a month on video games.

this i have to spend at least 100 bucks to get on the table, and that doesn't even count paints and such.

i don't have many hobbies, but video games are the only ones that cost money.
look at drawing...painting...playing the guitar (1 time purchase of $300, and i'm not expected to upgrade that...ever. wheras new units and stuff will always cost more and more.

new rulebooks at 50 bucks a pop..codexes... ugh.

warhammer is VERY expensive to someone in my shoes...i come from a lower class family. hard to play this game if you barely make enough to pay bills.
 plus...it's just plastic. however i can see how fluff alone is worth giving GW some money. must have taken some time.


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## GeneralSturnn (Feb 20, 2011)

I complain because it goes up a couple bucks every year or two


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## ThoseKrazyKasrkin (Aug 2, 2011)

Although its expensive for what it is aspeople have said, compared to other stuff its not that bad. Comparing biking or racing etc to this is a valid comparison cause they all fall under the hobby/fun categorie.


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## Caratacos (Aug 26, 2008)

I have spent way too much on 40K during the years since I first begun when they game was released. But then again, nowadays I have a job where I can play the game and get paid for it, and I work as a door supervisor on Saturdays, so I earn enough extra cash to buy 2-3 boxes a week if I should want to.

Enough of the bragging from an old 40k geek - next yeear I turn 40 without a K.

I work at a youth club (youth recreation centre, fritidsgård or whatever). And when the teenagers ask about the game, how much it costs, I usually compares it with other hobbies/activities such as hockey, going to the cinema, owning and riding a horse and so on.

Most understand that in a wide perspective it's not that much money per hour of hobby time.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

I just ordered the last part of the company of Blood Angels I'm creating, 25 assault marines and 10 tactical marines. That should hold me through the end of the year, at least. If got enough minis waiting to paint that I could be painting till about 2015, heh.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Silens said:


> He's not saying Space Marines are bad. I, along with a lot of 40k players with a mental age over that of 14, have distaste for the fact that most little kids that come into the shop with play space marines and can't play very well and have a shoddy looking army and will bitch and whine a moan when their super-heroes with guns lose every single game because they decide to battle someone with common sense who will almost always destroy them. This is coming from a player who has just started collecting Space Marines, but I'm not going for Ultramarines. I'm not making my own chapter. I've done my research. I'll follow fluff and I'll paint my models with a method which doesn't include dunking my men in a pot of Ultramarines blue and then adding two white dots for eyes and thinking I've painted a masterpiece.
> 
> The club I run in school currently has about four 40k players. At least two of these play space marines, maybe even the third one. Luckily, there are some older kids coming into club this year which I am enjoying. The best painted models in the club (other than those of the people running the club) still are pretty crude. I'm tempted to run painting club again, but last year I did it a few times and it was a complete disaster. It consisted of me and one other boy sitting there and painting whilst all the other kids debated on their colour scheme.
> 
> ...


Right. Space Marines in itself aren't bad, but GW's marketing of them to the exclusion of all else is neutering variety, which used to be one of the most important things about this game.


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## Durant (Aug 24, 2011)

CLT40K you should work in PR for GW! :laugh:

I love W40k, mainly for the fluff, but the more I see these great painted armies I find myself wanting to take a shot myself, I really really want to paint a Titan! However the cost puts me off.

I have a job, no other hobbies etc but just seeing the price tags has always put me off, especially despite my love for the vast lore and fluff, sometimes I still see them as the "little lead men" from my school days (Bloodbowl, Space Hulk)

However this discussion, with other people’s posts has put it in perspective.
Since 2006 I had played EQ2, by the end I was 6 boxing, I controlled 6 characters at once. This was done on 1 PC, and in order to do that I had invested over £4k on a rig, along with 5 monitors, N52te, Razer mice, boxing software and then on top of that there was the recurring subscriptions and expansion costs. 6 toons = roughly £9ea a month (£54), and then there were expansion, LON cards and station cash items to buy.

So, now I believe I can justify spending that cash on another hobby, one that will actually produce something of substance rather than the niggly feeling that I had just wasted 5 years of my life...


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Money wise at the moment very little, but up until the wedding saving kicked in I'd spend between £50-100 a month on the hobby as a whole, be it minis, scenery, paints, brushes, modelling kit, etc. 

In comparison I'd spend about 9 quid a month on WoW (now binned), about £50-70 quid on petrol for my bike (now binned) but that'd have the added cost of helmet, gloves, jacket, keks, armour and all that caper, plus insurance, tax, mot so it cost me in total about 2k a year.

It's not too expensive, I think it's much the same as it always has been. Used to be £2.50 for two terminators, then went to about £2.50 for one, and this is when I was about 16 so couldn't afford any then. I'd save up for a tactical squad and such. I still managed a company of ultramarines with tanks, support, hq's etc. And a nice sized eldar and harlequin army. A few figures here and there at the time built them up. Now I have a little more disposable income, so in the past two years I've gotten a 4500pt ork army, and a 4500pt SW army too.

Add that onto the special edition stuff by FW and other companies which I seem strangely inclined to buy, and the extras (Bloodbowl, Space Hulk, etc), painting days at Golem, that kind of thing, and it boosts the price up. But most of that is by choice so it's not like they're twisting my arm into buying more... honestly... I'm not an addict... I don't just impulse buy nice looking minis...:wacko:


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## Durant (Aug 24, 2011)

LOL, yup I am one step closer to self justifying the £500+ I am going to shell out on a Warhound Titan and painting supplies :victory:


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

When you're starting out at just 12 years old like yours truly did? Yeah, it's an expensive hobby. Around almost 7 years later though, it's really not as bad as it used to be now that I've got a fair bit of income moving in as a freelancer. 

Or it might be that way just because I haven't bought a GW product in over 6 months. I may be making money now that could more than keep me going with the hobby, but I've actively made the choice to stop as I'm saving up to move out across the states. 

So yeah, on it's own I guess I can see why one wouldn't consider it a money guzzler, but it's the sort of thing that could really sabotage your other plans if you get careless.


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