# The Emperor wiped out the cognoscynths?



## Longfang1234 (Jan 22, 2011)

reading the Outcast Dead and the psykers are talking about powerful dream-benders and mages who could influence people into doing what they wanted? It seems they controlled nation-states and pitted them against each other? Could this be perhaps the illuminati? One named Gregoras went on to say that a golden-eyed warrior rallied the remaining kingdoms and wiped out the cognoscyths? I believe that the golden-eyed warrior was the Emperor. 


thoughts?


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Yeah, the golden-eyed guy was the Emperor. He probably also controlled the cognoscyths and then killed them all after their task was complete so he'd get the credit for "stopping" them. Same thing with the Thunder Warriors essentially. All in all, the Emperor is not a nice guy. He's also not an idiot. He does things only for his own ends and then knows exactly how to tie up loose ends.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I haven't read the book but it would seem that these cognoscyths were taking humanity down a bad future and the Emperor, keen on rebuilding humanity, took decisive action to wipe them out.

And I am not of the opinion that the Emperor was selfish and only did things to further his own goals. I haven't seen any evidence pointing towards him being anything but altruistic towards * mankind as a whole. *

You cannot rule an empire of a trillion + citizens in a universe with aliens and supernatural beings without an iron fist and without a 'the end justifies the means' mentality.


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## Longfang1234 (Jan 22, 2011)

As these books go on, he seems more and more flawed. No wonder his ideals failed and the Imperium is how it turned out. If he was such a great being did he not know that it was going to fail? Did he maybe know mankind couldn't survive as a single body?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

His ideals failed because the Chaos powers, infinitely more powerful, focused their efforts to stopping him.

Contrary to what Alpharius and his legion believe, I do not think the Emperor's ideals were flawed, he simply ran out of time when the Heresy erupted.


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## Longfang1234 (Jan 22, 2011)

If he knew of the Chaos powers and their infinite power then why would he attempt to lead the human race if it was destined to fail? He was the Emperor he must have known of the power of Chaos. He was flawed because he was arrogant. He thought he could bend them to his will and/or defeat them. 

If he knew that he couldn't then why would he attempt it?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

He lost his ability to see into the future at one point.

It wasn't destined to fail in terms of the future being manipulated since the Chaos powers can't see into the future 100% accurately. The Chaos powers simply planned everything and they succeeded. 

He did know of Chaos hence why he banned all forms of worship to prevent anyone from stumbling upon them.

There is a difference between arrogance and confidence.

He did not think he could bend them to his will, that mistake falls upon Magnus his son.

It was therotetically possible to defeat Chaos if all of the Emperor's plans fell into place and if his ultimate goal of helping mankind become a psychic race in its entirety occurred.


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## Longfang1234 (Jan 22, 2011)

But he knew the Chaos Powers would attempt to stop him, and therefore failed to prepare for them trying to stop him. There's the flaw, if he wasn't inherently flawed then he would have prepared better. He would have built better bridges of communication between his various sons. There was no balance of how he dealt with things. For example, he raised an entire world in reprisal for Lorgar's misplaced praise, made them kneel before another Legion. That is just going to inflame things. There are so many other examples. In that way he was flawed.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

"He's for every one of us!
Stands for every one of us!
He'll save with a mighty hand
Every man, every woman
Every child, in the world...

Just a man
With a man's courage
You know he's
Nothing but a man,
And he can never fail.
No one but the pure at heart
May find the Golden Grail
...Oh..Oh........Oh..Oh"

OK, so maybe he's not just a man, but the most intelligent and psychically powerful human in all of existence and all he found was a Golden Throne. Bus still just a man.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Bus still just a man.


No. Steve Buscemi is just a man. The Emperor is so much more.


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## Bakunin (Mar 27, 2010)

I think it is pretty certain that the golden-eyed guy was the Emperor. But the interesting thing is the implications that Magnus and the Emperor have the power of the cognoscynths and there for the ability to make large groups of humans there willing slaves!



Malus Darkblade said:


> I am not of the opinion that the Emperor was selfish and only did things to further his own goals. I haven't seen any evidence pointing towards him being anything but altruistic towards * mankind as a whole. *
> 
> You cannot rule an empire of a trillion + citizens in a universe with aliens and supernatural beings without an iron fist and without a 'the end justifies the means' mentality.


A similair justification is put forward by every tyrant. The short story 'The Las Church' shows the Emperor to be very closed minded when pushing forward his vision, refusing to accept any other arguements and crushing those that even try to speak against him.

As for not having the time to fulfill his ideals, wasn't the flaw in the ideals of the imperium was based in the factor that lead to Heresy? There for the ideals of the Emperor founded the imperium on were flawed because they could never be achieved before the Imperium collapsed in on itself...

However, I do not believe that the ideals of the Emperor founded the Imperium on were his long term aims. His long term aims was to guide mankind forward by becoming God and having mankind as his worshippers!


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> "He's for every one of us!
> Stands for every one of us!
> He'll save with a mighty hand
> Every man, every woman
> ...


Flash gordon is the emperor?


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> His ideals failed because the Chaos powers, infinitely more powerful, focused their efforts to stopping him.


or maybe he hasn't failed...it's all part of his long-term plan, think God Emperor of Dune


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Longfang1234 said:


> If he knew of the Chaos powers and their infinite power then why would he attempt to lead the human race if it was destined to fail? He was the Emperor he must have known of the power of Chaos. He was flawed because he was arrogant. He thought he could bend them to his will and/or defeat them.
> 
> If he knew that he couldn't then why would he attempt it?


From what we know his plan seemed to be to guard humanity as a species from the depridations of Chaos thereby weakening the Dark Gods. There is no doubt that the Emperor was powerful, with some sources even suggesting the Chaos Gods could not strike at him directly (the reason for this varies) so they struck at the Primarchs instead; individuals who were pivotal to the Emperor's plans.

But in regards to the gods the Emperor "never dared face one". 



Malus Darkblade said:


> Contrary to what Alpharius and his legion believe, I do not think the Emperor's ideals were flawed...


I agree with Alpharius personally.


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## Longfang1234 (Jan 22, 2011)

Is that not over-confidence then if he attempted to guard his whole species without a decent preparation for his possible failure? His flaws were that he placed his faith in his sons and his own abilities. 

His only preparation was the Golden Throne, and I'm sure that it was only a temporary (albeit very long-term temporary if that makes sense) measure.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Longfang1234 said:


> Is that not over-confidence then if he attempted to guard his whole species without a decent preparation for his possible failure?


So you know all of the Emperor's plans then? Where'd you get that info, as it's definitely not in any of the books.

What seperates over-confidence from confidence is being wrong. The Emperor doesn't know that he's wrong but he is confident that he isn't. We know he's wrong because we're looking at the setting from 2K years latter.



> His flaws were that he placed his faith in his sons and his own abilities.


As opposed to placing it where? His flaw was that he didn't recognize the flaws in his sons or otherwise expected them to rise above them.


Your primary argument is that the Emperor was doomed from the start and that any attempt to change the future was arrogant and foolish. That's a pretty bleak interpretation, and one that doesn't really make sense. The Emperor and the Gods were playing chess and the Emperor came very close to winning before the Gods managed to squeek out a victory. Hardly the one-sided curbstomp you're implying.


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## Longfang1234 (Jan 22, 2011)

Well from what we know of he was moving the species to its pyskic potential. And his only back up from 'what we know' is the Golden Throne and the Webway he was attempting to break into. What plans did he have that prepared for a possible failure? Or at least prepared for a small failure? He seems to have clubbed his way ahead and ignored all sorts of signs. 

And what do you mean its not in the books? Its pretty clear that his aim is to guard the human race, its one of the basis of the ideas and ideals of the Emperor. I think thats pretty clear. All I'm saying is that from his actions throughout the whole Heresy and time before are set on the fact that he will win. Surely a being such as the Emperor who has watched over and influenced Humanity almost from its very beginning would be able to see the signs of his fledgling Imperium falling apart? It lasted what, 250 years before it fell into the stagnant body we know today? After 30,000 years to learn and guide humanity it seems that in the last hurdle his over-confidence and failure to see signs of things to come are what tripped him up. 

And the whole setting is bleak and grim, all I'm saying that in such a bleak and grim environment why wouldn't he prepare for the worst?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

There were no signs.

Horus got wounded then brainwashed on Davin all in a few hours. Then Horus began checking which of the Primarchs he could turn over the course of several years all the while smiling and pretending that he's still loyal.


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## Longfang1234 (Jan 22, 2011)

So you're saying that there were no other factors that led to the Heresy? I find that hard to believe.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

No I did not say that. What I did say was that the Emperor was kept in the dark and had no idea some of his sons were plotting against him. Perhaps he would of if he was not so focused on the Webway Project and other stuff he had going on.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

The Emperor was trying to hurry, that much is certain. He knew Chaos was going to strike at him at some point, but he figured he'd be in a very nice position to stop whatever they were going to do. He also did in fact know that Horus was going to betray him, but what he didn't count on was Magnus screwing Terra over by busting in through the Webway. 

This was what really messed everything up due to the fact that the Emperor had to stay on the Golden Throne after that point to keep the daemon army out of Terra. If that hadn't happened, the siege of Terra probably would have gone very differently with the Emperor himself kicking the traitors' teeth in.

The Emperor only started losing his foresight the closer he got to his fight with Horus because all four Chaos gods were blinding him, but he knew full well the Heresy would happen; though he might have thought he had more time and didn't see Magnus coming.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

He did not know Horus, his most favorite son, was going to betray him.

He lost his ability to see into the future before he made the Primarchs or sometime afterwards.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Longfang1234 said:


> Well from what we know of he was moving the species to its pyskic potential. And his only back up from 'what we know' is the Golden Throne and the Webway he was attempting to break into. What plans did he have that prepared for a possible failure? Or at least prepared for a small failure? He seems to have clubbed his way ahead and ignored all sorts of signs.


1) The Webway wasn't a back-up plan, it was part of his primary plan.
2) I'd like to know what sort of signs he ignored, and how you know that he ignored them. We haven't had a story that even comes close to the Emperors POV, meaning we have literally no idea what was going through his head as he was doing stuff. 
3) His backup plans clearly failed or were subverted however that doesn't mean they didn't exist. Again we don't know very many details about what the Emperor was doing, why he was doing it or what the Gods were doing to stop him.



> And what do you mean its not in the books? Its pretty clear that his aim is to guard the human race, its one of the basis of the ideas and ideals of the Emperor. I think thats pretty clear.


That is indeed pretty clear, however it's also pretty far from an actual plan (or back-up plans, which notably only become relivant under specific circumstances).



> All I'm saying is that from his actions throughout the whole Heresy and time before are set on the fact that he will win. Surely a being such as the Emperor who has watched over and influenced Humanity almost from its very beginning would be able to see the signs of his fledgling Imperium falling apart?


Actually it seems more like the Emperor isn't certain of his victory but is acting rather hastily and desperately. He seems to have assumed direct control as a last-ditch effort to save humanity, hence why he is using clearly flawed pieces. And again, what signs? We see an increasing amount of religiousity (which isn't necessarily counter to his plans), increased turbulence in the warp (which is likely why he was gambling in the first place) and then bam, Horus turns and the galaxy is in civil war. 



> It lasted what, 250 years before it fell into the stagnant body we know today? After 30,000 years to learn and guide humanity


It stagnated because he died. In no way does that reflect poorly on his ability to lead. Apparently he didn't plan for his death but really how many people do?



> And the whole setting is bleak and grim, all I'm saying that in such a bleak and grim environment why wouldn't he prepare for the worst?


And I'm saying how do you know he didn't? Losing doesn't mean you didn't plan, it doesn't mean you weren't effective, it doesn't mean you didn't come close to winning; all it means is that someone else was better, stronger or luckier than you. Hindsight says the Emperor could've done more, unfortunetly for him the Emperor exists in his time and doesn't have the advantage of looking back over his actions from a position with 2K years of revelations.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> He did not know Horus, his most favorite son, was going to betray him.
> 
> He lost his ability to see into the future before he made the Primarchs or sometime afterwards.


I can't remember the exact quote at the moment, but in Thousand Sons when Magnus busts into Terra and they meet, he either saw that the Emperor already knew about Horus or if he didn't then Magnus told him when they did their psychic communion thing and saw each others minds.

So maybe he didn't know a long time before hand, but he knew before anyone else except Alpharius and Magnus. Though I can't remember if Alpharius learned before or after Magnus hit Terra.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The Emperor did not care about/believe Magnus's message when he destroyed the Emperor's work.

So no he did not know Horus would betray him.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> with some sources even suggesting the Chaos Gods could not strike at him directly


That's a general property of being in the Materium. There's no evidence that the Chaos Gods can strike people down with a bolt from hell, or that they can directly attempt to possess or control psykers like their daemons do. The Emperor was obviously too strong for a daemon to possess, but then any powerful psyker should be able to do that.


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## mc wazzahamma (Jul 12, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Contrary to what Alpharius and his legion believe, I do not think the Emperor's ideals were flawed, he simply ran out of time when the Heresy erupted.


There was a flaw. They called it the Horus Heresy.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

SoulGazer said:


> I can't remember the exact quote at the moment, but in Thousand Sons when Magnus busts into Terra and they meet, he either saw that the Emperor already knew about Horus or if he didn't then Magnus told him when they did their psychic communion thing and saw each others minds.
> 
> So maybe he didn't know a long time before hand, but he knew before anyone else except Alpharius and Magnus. Though I can't remember if Alpharius learned before or after Magnus hit Terra.


SoulGazer, with all respect, you really need to re-read the books. :wink:

The Emperor didn't psychically foresee Horus' treachery. He already knew of it when Magnus "busted into Terra" because the events of "Galaxy in Flames" and "Flight of the Eisenstein" had already happened. The novel "The Outcast Dead" begins AFTER Horus declared his rebellion.

Alpharius didn't find out until four months after the triumph at Ullanor, when Horus became Warmaster. Magnus found out even later than that, during the events of "False Gods".

*Longfang,* with respect to you as well, you have a curious way of dismissing plans on a galactic scale and assuming that the Emperor was just assuming he was going to win. Here is what we know:

1. The Emperor knew of Chaos and of the compromising link they had over Humanity vis-a-vis the species' psychic potential AND their own viable means of space travel.
2. In turn, he sets up alliances and programs to create the most awesome fighting force his species has ever seen, with an eye toward assuming more-or-less direct control over Humanity as a whole.
3. In the process of doing so, he begins setting up the temporary safe-guard of bringing under *direct control* all psykers among the species. In a draconian turn, he ensures that all are either trained and put under a protective aegis... or turned into psychic fodder. As such, he is depriving Chaos of the most direct link they have to the species and their most viable means of wreaking havoc.
4. Concurrently, he is working on developing access to the Webway, which would enable human beings to travel through the majority of the Galaxy without relying on the Warp itself.

The ultimate end-state is a Humanity that is able to seize its psychic destiny without being preyed on by Chaos.

Finally, the bad news:
1. Chaos is aware of the Emperor's plans.
2. It decides to strike via the two weaknesses the (theoretically unassailable in person) Emperor possesses -
a. He cannot be everywhere at once. He needs agents to do his work, and they decide to subvert his most powerful agents.
b. So many of his efforts rely on psychic precognitive abilities. By increasingly clouding the future, they prevent him from being able to make the best decisions and recognize certain threats.

You have to remember, though, that these are just the things we *know*. We have been granted only a tiny amount. We're by no means "flies on the wall", able to observe him at work. We simply can't assume that what we've been made privy (mostly via the occasional guarded conversation he has with someone or a Chaos-induced vision of Horus or Argel-Tal) is the total sum of his efforts.

Either way, though, it's glaringly obvious that the Emperor has multiple schemes going on, and attacking the problem (Humanity free of Chaos) from multiple angles.

Cheers,
P.


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## GoRy (Apr 1, 2008)

Phoebus said:


> 4. Concurrently, he is working on developing access to the Webway, which would enable human beings to travel through the majority of the Galaxy without relying on the Warp itself.


He may not have been trying to face down and defeat the Chaos gods but by attempting to turn the webways to Human use, he was trying to find a way to avoid any influence the warp had on Humanity

Exactly.

Then Magnus ruined it!


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

To say that there wasn't a flaw in the Emperor's plan is the most pretty hard. He kept the vast majority of humanity in the dark on almost everything. He talked about enlightenment but what was that really? Religion he said offered a flawed view of the universe that wasn't based on facts or science.okay then. What does the Emperor offer instead? There are no gods, the warp is full of.......xenos beings,the omnissah is an aspect of me, yeah the thunder warriors went made on there own,no I didn't know Ferrus was walking into a trap,Why did I not tell Magnus that the creatures he was dealing with were after his soul,(stop me if any of this seems like flawed logic), No, Horus, you don't need to know my reasons for leaving the Crusade. I'm sure you could keep this going. I don't think he was dark lord evil like the chaos powers, but i'd say he was definitely human evil. 

What the old phrase? The path to damnation is paved with good intentions. The Emperor wanted to save humanity and looking at Outcast Dead he wanted the credit for it as well and would do anything to anyone to get it. He wanted the worship and loyalty of the mechanicus so he lied to them. You know the first time he told any of the primarchs the truth about the Chaos Gods? When he was facing down Horus and said that the Gods don't share power. It took all that for him to finally tell his son to watch out and these things are evil. You don't think that info you should give your top commander much less your son the day you handed him command of humankinds military? He didn't run out of time. He ran out of room to lie. As the truth came hurling out of the warp, his lies and lack of explanations brought real illumination to the cracks in his Imperium. The decades long Heresy could have been averted with a 2 hour talk with his sons.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> It took all that for him to finally tell his son to watch out and these things are evil. You don't think that info you should give your top commander much less your son the day you handed him command of humankinds military?


Well he basically did tell them. He said Daemons=Xenos and Xenos=evil, which means Daemons=Evil. Demon is just a word used to describe things we don't understand and humanity always fears things it doesn't understand. By making the daemons out to be a conventional threat he robbed them off their most powerful weapon. 

Telling the Primarchs about the existance of the Chaos Powers would not likely have helped. Those that weren't interested in them wouldn't really change their minds and those that were interested (Magnus, Lorgar) would now have justification for their experiments. Those that dabbled with Chaos were already defying the Emperors wishes, making it more clear wouldn't have helped much. Not one of the Primarchs fell through ignorance but many fell through arrogance, thinking they were better/smarter than things they weren't, things like the Chaos Gods.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

No, he never used the word Daemon, he said they were a form of xenos. He also never explained the nature of the warp and what existed there. Telling them the existence of Chaos wouldn't have helped? In the original fluff the only reason the emperor became the emperor was because of the predations of the warp were increasing. Magnus and Lorgar might have sided with their father if they had known what the hell they were really dealing with. The other primarchs would have been more aware of the possibility of taint in their legions and mindful. Not being aware of Chaos was one of the prime factors in why the Heresy went so wrong. Instead of God vs Satan the heresy gave humanity The Emperor vs Chaos. He traded one religion for another in his secrecy.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

_From Horus Rising_:



'Neither do I, my son. Neither does the Emperor, beloved by all. Not entirely. It pains me to admit that, but it is the truth, and we deal in truths above all else. The warp is a vital tool to us, a means of communica¬tion and transport. Without it, there would be no Imperium of Man, for there would be no quick bridges between the stars. We use it, and we harness it, but we have no absolute control over it. It is a wild thing that tolerates our presence, but brooks no mastery. There is power in the warp, fundamental power, not good, nor evil, but elemental and anathema to us. It is a tool we use at our own risk.’

The Warmaster finished his glass and set it down. 'Spirits. *Daemons*. Those words imply a greater power, a fiendish intellect and a purpose. An evil archetype with cosmic schemes and stratagems. They imply a god, or gods, at work behind the scenes. They imply the very supernatural state that we have taken great pains,

'Through the light of science, to shake off. They imply sorcery and a palpable evil.’

He looked across at Loken. 'Spirits. *Daemons*. The supernatural. Sorcery. These are words we have allowed to fall out of use, for we dislike the connotations, but they are just words. What you saw today... call it a spirit. Call it a daemon. The words serve well enough. Using them does not deny the clinical truth of the uni¬verse as man understands it. There can be daemons in a secular cosmos, Garviel. lust so long as we understand the use of the word.’

'Meaning the warp?'

'Meaning the warp. Why coin new terms for its hor¬rors when we have a bounty of old words that might suit us just as well? We use the words "alien" and "xenos" to describe the inhuman filth we encounter in some locales. The creatures of the warp are just "aliens" too, but they are not life forms as we understand the term. They are not organic. They are extra-dimensional, and they influence our reality in ways that seem sorcer-ous to us. Supernatural, if you will. So let's use all those lost words for them... *daemons*, spirits, possessors, changelings. All we need to remember is that there are no gods out there, in the darkness, no great *daemons *and ministers of evil. There is no fundamental, immutable evil in the cosmos. It is too large and sterile for such melodrama. 

There are simply inhuman things that oppose us, things we were created to battle and destroy. Orks. Gykon. Tushepta. Keylekid. Eldar. Jokaero... and the creatures of the warp, which are stranger than all for they exhibit powers that are bizarre to us because of the otherness of their nature.’


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

This is all assuming that things aren't going according to the Emperor's plan. :biggrin:

And honestly, I think that Outcast Dead makes it pretty clear that the Emperor knew exactly what was going to happen to him, and was more then willing to bear millenia of torment on the Golden Throne. If that isn't showing concern for the Human race over a personal agenda, I don't know what it is.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> No, he never used the word Daemon, he said they were a form of xenos. He also never explained the nature of the warp and what existed there.


As Malus' quote aptly shows, he did. 



> Magnus and Lorgar might have sided with their father if they had known what the hell they were really dealing with.


Personally I don't think they would've. Lorgar goes into his dealing with Chaos knowing pretty much exactly what they are. It's possible/probable that he doesn't totally understand just how schemy they are but a description from the Emperor isn't going to prove anything. Magnus on the other hand is just massively arrogant. He thinks he's better than both the Emperor and an alternate-dimensional xenos, I think it's quite possible that he would believe himself smarter than a 'god' particularly as he is likely to dismiss the idea of a god as quaint.



> The other primarchs would have been more aware of the possibility of taint in their legions and mindful.


I assume you're talking about the advisors who helped turn their Primarch (Erebus, Kor Pheron, Typhon)? Would being aware of their possible taint (which was well hidden remember) make what they said any less true or influential? The Chaos Powers do not shy from revealing themselves and their powers from the traitor Primarchs.

The primary reason the that the lack of knowledge of Chaos was a threat was because the Gods could use their existance to prove that the Emperor was lieing to his sons, thus breaking their trust. However if the Emperor had revealed them fully to the Primarchs (and he did to a certain extent, Horus clearly has a decent grasp on what's going on) then the 'reveal' that the Gods would use would simply change from 'we exist' to 'we're not evil' and achieve the same effect. And you can say that the Gods are evil but the side they show Horus and the others to turn them does not appear evil, it appears caring.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> The Emperor didn't psychically foresee Horus' treachery. He already knew of it when Magnus "busted into Terra" because the events of "Galaxy in Flames" and "Flight of the Eisenstein" had already happened. The novel "The Outcast Dead" begins AFTER Horus declared his rebellion.


I still say he knew about it, he had to. If some Necron Cryptek can predict it thousands of years before it happened then the Emperor should be able to do it just fine. Not to mention the Cabal knew about it also.

And if Horus had already declared his intentions, why did Magnus need to warn the Emperor at all? And even if Magnus left after word had started to spread, he'd have to be faster than simple astropathic relays; he was in the webway.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> The Emperor didn't psychically foresee Horus' treachery. He already knew of it when Magnus "busted into Terra" because the events of "Galaxy in Flames" and "Flight of the Eisenstein" had already happened. The novel "The Outcast Dead" begins AFTER Horus declared his rebellion.


That depends on whether you believe Mcneill made a major cock-up or not. What you said above is true if we take the aforementioned novels as correct. However, that can be refuted. Magnus prepared and sent his warning to Terra straight after the Davin incident (where Magnus was also involved). Yet in _The Outcast Dead_; Davin and Isstvan III had already occured, with Terra aware that Horus was entrenched on Isstvan V and the seven Legions already despacted to bring him to heel. Do you think it took Magnus this long to send the warning? If Horus's rebellion was already made public (and everyone seemed to be aware of it) why would Magnus then send his warning? There are ways to justify it, but it just doesn't fit seamlessly.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> That depends on whether you believe Mcneill made a major cock-up or not. What you said above is true if we take the aforementioned novels as correct. However, that can be refuted. Magnus prepared and sent his warning to Terra straight after the Davin incident (where Magnus was also involved). Yet in _The Outcast Dead_; Davin and Isstvan III had already occured, with Terra aware that Horus was entrenched on Isstvan V and the seven Legions already despacted to bring him to heel. Do you think it took Magnus this long to send the warning? If Horus's rebellion was already made public (and everyone seemed to be aware of it) why would Magnus then send his warning? There are ways to justify it, but it just doesn't fit seamlessly.


:goodpost: Better explained than what I said, but yeah, there does seem to be something odd going on here.


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## Longfang1234 (Jan 22, 2011)

_''The primary reason the that the lack of knowledge of Chaos was a threat was because the Gods could use their existance to prove that the Emperor was lieing to his sons, thus breaking their trust. However if the Emperor had revealed them fully to the Primarchs (and he did to a certain extent, Horus clearly has a decent grasp on what's going on) then the 'reveal' that the Gods would use would simply change from 'we exist' to 'we're not evil' and achieve the same effect. And you can say that the Gods are evil but the side they show Horus and the others to turn them does not appear evil, it appears caring.'' _

I dont think that the revealing of Chaos to the Primarchs would have _not affected_ how susceptible they were to the touch of Chaos. If that makes sense haha. Just by sharing this knowledge with them the Primarchs would feel trusted and vauled more than they did in the current Heresy timeline. For example Curze and Angron who had shakey relationships with their father would surely have felt more valued and trusted? Therefore making them more able to steel themselves against Chaos or turning rogue in Curze's case. 

Also it is pretty clear the Chaos Powers were fucking the Primarchs about was it not? The promise of a dominion over man to Horus that could only ever end with the death of united humanity and very probably humanity itself. Promising Lorgar the salvation of the human race where in reality they would've been reduced to slaves. 

So yeah if the Emperor revealed that I don't think the Primarchs would've turned personally (that is assuming that the Emperor knew such things in detail).


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> To say that there wasn't a flaw in the Emperor's plan is the most pretty hard.


I don't think anyone's trying to say he was flawless...



> What does the Emperor offer instead? There are no gods, the warp is full of.......xenos beings, ...


That's a pretty savvy move, if you ask me. Metaphysical stuff gets pretty deep, pretty fast. One important aspect of godhood, throughout history, has been that of creation. Did Chaos create the universe? Or is it merely its emotional/psychic mirror image? Did the Emperor create Humanity?

Knowing that worship only fueled Chaos (and likely did little to truly empower him against his enemies), the Emperor was smart to kill off religion, except...



> ... the omnissah is an aspect of me, ...


... where pragmatic choices were to be made. Tackling this with the Martians at the time of the Great Crusade could have compromised the production capability he needed to conquer the Galaxy.



> ... no I didn't know Ferrus was walking into a trap, ...


It's qualified that the Ruinous Powers were doing their best to block the Emperor's prescience at the time of the Heresy.



> Why did I not tell Magnus that the creatures he was dealing with were after his soul,(stop me if any of this seems like flawed logic), ...


He warned Magnus time and again about not dabbling with sorcery and of the perils of the Warp. Magnus not only did not listen, he is featured prominently trying to argue that there is no inherent danger where power is concerned. Do you really think "your soul is in danger!" would have worked out? It's the most prosaic kind of warning - it doesn't work with teenagers interested in pre-marital sex, so I doubt it's going to work with a superhuman super-genius who has been almost unmatched in terms of psychic power on a nigh-galactic level (so far as he knows).



> No, Horus, you don't need to know my reasons for leaving the Crusade.


That is by far the worst complaint the Primarchs had for rebelling. It's not as if the Emperor was their constant companion before - quite the contrary. Their job was to be warlords. The notion that they couldn't comprehend that an Imperium would need an, I don't know, _Emperor_ to do things that involved _running_ said realm is preposterous.

In fewer words, just because a character expresses a complaint, we shouldn't automatically take it as a legitimate one. Remember, Horus doesn't exactly find himself using this line of reasoning as valid for treason until AFTER he is poisoned and placed in a ritualistic trance instigated by a champion of Chaos.

That having been said, while I roll my eyes with the idea that the Primarchs were _just so wronged_ by being kept in the dark about Chaos and the ultimate threat it posed, I am willing to admit that their ignorance was the weakness the enemy did end up exploiting (see previous post). It probably would have been better if he had briefed them on it from day one, but I imagine there are unstated reasons for him not doing so. 



> I'm sure you could keep this going. I don't think he was dark lord evil like the chaos powers, but i'd say he was definitely human evil.


More like possessed of a morality that is on a completely different level than that of a normal person. It's clear that the Emperor wishes for a positive end state for all humans. He's willing to do terrible things to reach that end state, however. His concern isn't about one's individual rights or happiness as the species tries to get there. It's about _species survival,_ period.



> The Emperor wanted to save humanity and looking at Outcast Dead he wanted the credit for it as well and would do anything to anyone to get it.


That's just supposition and conjecture, courtesy of a character with limited understanding. How much sense does that statement make when you consider that the Emperor publicly lauded and celebrated the achievements of the Primarchs, and constantly promoted them as his champions, sons, etc.?



> He wanted the worship and loyalty of the mechanicus so he lied to them.


He needed a theocratic regime bent on the worship of technology if he was to conquer the Galaxy. Engaging in a war to suppress their dogma and religion would not just have potentially derailed the Great Crusade for an untold amount of time; it may very well have permanently destroyed a great deal of human science and technology that could not be found anywhere else.

What would he have told his sons, anyways? Where does that conversation end?

_"Chaos is the ultimate evil. It seeks to corrupt Humanity and turn it against itself for the purposes of amusement that translates to galactic woe and suffering. Oh, by the way, I used its essences to create you.

Too soon?"_ :wink:

Cheers,
P.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Longfang1234 said:


> Just by sharing this knowledge with them the Primarchs would feel trusted and vauled more than they did in the current Heresy timeline. For example Curze and Angron who had shakey relationships with their father would surely have felt more valued and trusted? Therefore making them more able to steel themselves against Chaos or turning rogue in Curze's case.


I don't really think that's the case. Niether Primarch (of the two you mentioned) wanted daddy to spend more time talking to them. Curze wanted the Emperor to acknowledge that he was right and that his actions were sanctioned and Angron just wanted off the leash. Telling them about Chaos doesn't solve either of those problems. Indeed it presents an alternative to Angron far earlier (a God of bloodlust and violence would sound pretty attractive to him).



> Also it is pretty clear the Chaos Powers were fucking the Primarchs about was it not? The promise of a dominion over man to Horus that could only ever end with the death of united humanity and very probably humanity itself. Promising Lorgar the salvation of the human race where in reality they would've been reduced to slaves.


Clear to us, not necessarily (and apparently not) apparent to them. Plus we don't actually know if the Gods intended to keep their promises or not. Only the vision in _Legion_ suggests that Horus wouldn't have reigned long and symbiosis is certainly a step-up for the daemons.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> That depends on whether you believe Mcneill made a major cock-up or not. What you said above is true if we take the aforementioned novels as correct. However, that can be refuted. Magnus prepared and sent his warning to Terra straight after the Davin incident (where Magnus was also involved). Yet in _The Outcast Dead_; Davin and Isstvan III had already occured, with Terra aware that Horus was entrenched on Isstvan V and the seven Legions already despacted to bring him to heel. Do you think it took Magnus this long to send the warning? If Horus's rebellion was already made public (and everyone seemed to be aware of it) why would Magnus then send his warning? There are ways to justify it, but it just doesn't fit seamlessly.


I really don't see how.

For it to work in any way, Magnus' sorcerous message to Terra would have to arrive woefully late, and the Emperor's instructions to Russ would have to travel back in time.

In fact, Magnus' message arrives on Terra AFTER word of Ferrus Manus' death does.

Did Graham McNeill screw up? I'm afraid so. The question is, which way? IMHO, he either made a mistake with the timeline or he made a mistake by not at least *hinting* at the idea that the Ruinous Powers _totally_ got one over on Magnus (effectively turning his e-mail into a least-priority postage stamp letter).

Even if it was the former, it's not like I hate Graham McNeill or won't read his novels anymore. Nothing like that. It's mildly annoying to see such an error, but it doesn't define the Horus Heresy for me. Atharva would still have been in prison. Kai Zulane would still have gotten a magical message that everyone would have desperately needed to unlock. "The Outcast Dead" wasn't my favorite book in the series, but I approach this the same as just a topic of discussion. 

Cheers,
P.


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## Longfang1234 (Jan 22, 2011)

> Originally by *MEQinc*
> I don't really think that's the case. Niether Primarch (of the two you mentioned) wanted daddy to spend more time talking to them. Curze wanted the Emperor to acknowledge that he was right and that his actions were sanctioned and Angron just wanted off the leash. Telling them about Chaos doesn't solve either of those problems. Indeed it presents an alternative to Angron far earlier (a God of bloodlust and violence would sound pretty attractive to him).


I don't think they craved 'daddy's' attention in that way as such, but you could say that by letting Curze, for example, in a touch more by revealing some knowledge of the power of the warp, then I believe that he would have understood how such tactics employed by his men and by his legion would have led him down the 'dark side' as it were. Angron was similar, he like Curze, had extreme tactics that couldn't have helped in his turning renegade. Sounds attractive to him possibly but he was still a loyal son until Horus whispered honeyed words in his ear. 




> Clear to us, not necessarily (and apparently not) apparent to them. Plus we don't actually know if the Gods intended to keep their promises or not. Only the vision in Legion suggests that Horus wouldn't have reigned long and symbiosis is certainly a step-up for the daemons.


I think that if its clear to us, then possibly it could be clear to superhuman demi-gods who were leading the human race. Don't you think? I know that we are looking at this in hindsight and can link everything together, but still, maybe Horus did a Fulgrim half way through and realized he was fucked. And its pretty clear that the Gods wouldn't have kept their promise, they're not evil as such but I doubt they'd lower themselves to 'keep' their promises to mere mortals, even if they were of a caliber above average.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Longfang1234 said:


> I don't think they craved 'daddy's' attention in that way as such, but you could say that by letting Curze, for example, in a touch more by revealing some knowledge of the power of the warp, then I believe that he would have understood how such tactics employed by his men and by his legion would have led him down the 'dark side' as it were. Angron was similar, he like Curze, had extreme tactics that couldn't have helped in his turning renegade. Sounds attractive to him possibly but he was still a loyal son until Horus whispered honeyed words in his ear.


Curze: Believed both that his actions were necessary and that they were approved of by the Emperor. He got pissed because the Emperor never officially approved his actions and eventually went so far as to publicly decry them (which he thought of as betrayal). Curze never fully turned to Chaos, nor did it ever get a very strong grip on his Legion. His betrayal is almost purely political/philisophical and is tied to Chaos pretty much exclusively because it occured at the same time as the Heresy. 

Angron: Wanted the freedom to fight his way and wanted someone to appreciate his talents. The Emperor was unwilling to do these things but Khorne was. Had the Emperor exposed Angron to Khorne earlier than I have no doubt that Angron would have embraced it whole-heartedly, as he did latter.



> I think that if its clear to us, then possibly it could be clear to superhuman demi-gods who were leading the human race. Don't you think? I know that we are looking at this in hindsight and can link everything together, but still, maybe Horus did a Fulgrim half way through and realized he was fucked. And its pretty clear that the Gods wouldn't have kept their promise, they're not evil as such but I doubt they'd lower themselves to 'keep' their promises to mere mortals, even if they were of a caliber above average.


Hindsight helps a *lot *in this case. We know that the Gods aren't likely to keep their promises (though they do on occasion) because we have 2K years more knowledge of them. However at the time they certainly seemed very helpful, and they did keep certain smaller promises which naturally leads to the conclusion that they will keep larger ones. Further, the Emperor had shown that he too was unwilling to keep promises with the Primarchs (at least in Horus' mind), so how is he more trustworthy? It's certainly possible that Horus realized his folly at some point after Istvaan and decided to keep going anyway (like Lucifer in Paradise Lost), and I think that might make a great story but we haven't actually seen anything to suggest that that will happen.


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## Emperorguard500 (May 5, 2010)

i don't think.... you can call the emperor "perfect"... but he is not selfish.. 

sitting on a golden thrown immobile for thousands of years.. protecting mankind from doom

cause we can all agree.. once (IF) the emperor does die... the Imperium will get outright destroyed by Chaos


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Emperorguard500 said:


> i don't think.... you can call the emperor "perfect"... but he is not selfish..
> 
> sitting on a golden thrown immobile for thousands of years.. protecting mankind from doom
> 
> cause we can all agree.. once (IF) the emperor does die... the Imperium will get outright destroyed by Chaos


I disagree.


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