# 6th edition terminators: standard or assault squads?



## Learchus

I was wondering, since in 6th edition thunder hammers doesn't have any bonus against armor anymore, it seems that the only benefit a assault squad have over a normal one is the improved saving roll from storm shields. Is it worth anymore to loose storm bolters, assault cannons and the armor piercing chain fist just to get a 3+ inv over a 5+? It seems to me that a standard terminator squad with some chain fists is better than a assault squad in close combat and of course is a lot more versatile since it can shoot like hell too.


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## Manithus

While thunder hammers no longer auto inflict crew shaken results they are one of the few meleee weapons that possess an AP value of 2 (which now adds +1 to rolls on the vehicle damage charts) in 6th edition which still makes them very effective in melee combat. Although standard terminators have gained more survivablility in close combat (thanks to the new rules for melee weapons) and are more flexible, Assault Terminators are still significantly more resilient thanks to their 3+ invulerable saves when faced with low ap weapons. Considering the new melee rules I expect more people will be fielding ap1 and ap2 guns in order to deal with terminators so Assault terminators are still worth considering if your interested in max survivablilty.


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## spanner94ezekiel

Learchus said:


> I was wondering, since in 6th edition thunder hammers doesn't have any bonus against armor anymore, it seems that the only benefit a assault squad have over a normal one is the improved saving roll from storm shields.
> Aside from being AP2, one of the few weapons that can penetrate 2+ armour, gets +1 on the vehicle damage chart. Yeh pretty useless. And it's not as if you'll even get to strike with them, what with your 2+/3++. /s
> 
> Is it worth anymore to loose storm bolters, assault cannons and the armor piercing chain fist just to get a 3+ inv over a 5+? It seems to me that a standard terminator squad with some chain fists is better than a assault squad in close combat and of course is a lot more versatile since it can shoot like hell too.


Well put it like this. You walk your shooty termies up the field and see how many die to plasma, while I do the same with my TH/SS termies. I'm not saying I don't like shooty termies, but why take them when you can get sternguard who do better anti-infantry shooting, and for cheaper? To be fair, there is now a reason to get shooty termies into CC, but it's an expensive unit that can get too easily tarpitted.

In short, if you want shooty termies, play Loganwing/Deathwing/Grey Knights.


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## Learchus

Seems reasonable, thanks for the answers


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## dbgoldberg323

I'm running 10 regular Terminators with 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers and 2 Chainfists (followed by a Terminator Sang Priest) in my Blood Angels and they're mopping units up left and right. Having AP2 Power Fists in melee AND 20 S4 AP5 shots at 24" AND 4 Missiles (Frag or Krak) AND the now legendary 2+ armor save (can save vs power weapons) makes this unit pretty awesome. Also, don't forget to pre-measure to make sure your Storm Bolters are in range of your target. :biggrin:


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## Iron_Freak220

If you want to deep strike or foot slog get the TH/SS.

If you're sticking them in a Land Raider get the standard and equip them for whatever you want them to do.


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## dbgoldberg323

Iron_Freak220 said:


> If you want to deep strike or foot slog get the TH/SS.
> 
> If you're sticking them in a Land Raider get the standard and equip them for whatever you want them to do.


IMO, you have that backwards.


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## Iron_Freak220

dbgoldberg323 said:


> IMO, you have that backwards.


I assume you're saying that because if the standard squad is in a land raider then they won't get to shoot, right? Fair enough.

I think the deep strike/foot slog termis (by the way, I would only deep strike termis, I would never walk them) should have the TH/SS because of the improved invulnerable save. If you deep strike them close to the enemy (like you should) they are going to take a TON of fire, especially plasma. Plasma will destroy a 5++ but has trouble taking down 3++. Deep striking termis need to survive a turn of heavy shooting and I think that they REQUIRE storm shields to do that.

If you want to give them more of a combat punch, with lightning claws for infantry or chainfists for vehicles then you need a way to get them to the target. The paragraph above shows why deep striking them near their target is a bad idea, and walking is also a terrible idea. Terminators are just too slow. They'll get shot to hell all the way up the board because nobody is going to let a bunch of termis just walk their way up the table. Massed small arms fire is the true Terminator killer. So a Land Raider is the way to go. It's got the assault vehicle rule and can move 18'' a turn, making it a much faster way of getting your termis where they need to go.

So about those ranged weapons I assume you are concerned about. I ask you, why the heck are you getting termis for ranged weapons? Sure a Heavy 2 missile launcher or an assault cannon sound great but termis need to be in close combat. That's where they excel, especially with the lack of AP2 close combat weapons. An entire army can shoot at unengaged terminators, but only the squads in close combat with an engaged unit can hurt them. Terminators need to be in close combat, so all actions should be towards getting them to close combat. If you're foot slogging terminators, god forbid, then they should be running in the shooting phase and as such their fancy heavy weapons are rendered pointless anyway. 

I understand where you're coming from, the heavy weapons on terminators seem like a great idea, but in my experience, it's not the way to play them. Get land speeders and devs for the heavy weapons. Let terminators be your close combat support.


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## clever handle

BT also get 2 assault cannons in a 5 man squad & can take a veteran skill as well. Pretty good bang for your buck - the combined firepower of the assault cannons is pretty deadly against infantry & with tank hunters you can reliably shred light vehicles - even flyers due to volume of shots @ S6 with rending.

On the flip side, deepstriking a 200pt assualt terminator squad loaded with TH:SS could be a worthwhile maneuver. I'm a firm believer that the upswing we're going to see in plasma is more a reaction to the ability to strip hull points from vehicles rather than the upswing in terminators - though we'll certainly see more terminators in space marine forces (and artificer armor...). Any AP2 firing at your terminators isn't firing at your vehicles / scoring models and you still have a 3++ meaning that firepower isn't _that_ much better. Assault terminators are almost always faster in this edition than in 5th, so any survivors are more likely to get into that combat. A lot of the internets seem to be really upset about general nerfs to the ability to fight terminators in close combat.... Really only a handful of armies got hit hard by the change to close combat weapon AP values - both eldars, chaos marines & daemons especially - but in reality, most armies didn't included multiple units full of power weapons in the effort to fight off hordes of terminators... you'd see one unit - banshees, incubi, chaos terminators, sanguinary guard - all armed with power weapons - of course they're there to be decisive in close combat - but they were meant to face off against the opponent's softer units & roll them up quickly. Big scary combat monsters are meant to be neutralized by shooting. Nobody in their right mind would throw their CC rock against their enemies unless they had no other options. You shoot the fighty bits & fight the shooty bits.

I'm biased towards including black templars dakka terminators just due to the access to assault cannons & tank hunters. The powerfists and 2+ is no different... Agonizers and deamon weapons just became useless & freed up more points for my respective armies....


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## dbgoldberg323

Iron_Freak220 said:


> ...[Wall of valid points and text]...


Well, I gave a short reply to your short statement, and now I will explain.

First off, you make several entirely valid points, and I honestly don't have any difference in opinion. However, here's my take on how to run the two Terminator units.

Let me start by saying, I FUCKING HATE DEEP STRIKING. It's a terrible, terrible way to lose 200+ points of your army in a single go (or get them delayed, or placed somewhere dumb on the table).

Normally I'll throw the TH/SS Terminators in a Land Raider instead of walk them across the field. I completely agree that the CC Termies need to get where they're going fast (they need to be in combat), and a Land Raider _WAS_ the best way to do that. In the era of Hull Points however, I'm thinking you're on to something with the dreaded Deep-Strike. I just don't like it unless I'm doing it in a Drop Pod or with a Trygon/Mycetic Spore. Anyways, the Land Raider has always been the preferred Terminator delivery system (at least in my experiences) and what better to drop them off than a Crusader loaded up with weapons, and giving the Termies Frag Grenades on the turn they charge out of it? (The Frag Grenades are for the Lightning Claw Termies, or anything attached to them with a power weapon). The other Land Raiders are cool too but the Crusader will probably stay my favorite due to the sheer amount of effective firepower the thing can pump out. 

As for the walking Terminators, they have ranged weapons. By buying this unit, you're choosing to get ranged weapons instead of close combat weapons. By putting them in the Land Raider and zooming them across the field, you're not letting them shoot. 20 S4 AP5 shots at 24" (not including Missiles if you pay for them) is a nice thing to have firing at enemy infantry every turn, not have hidden in a transport. I most certainly DO walk my Terminators across the field, firing their weapons without prejudice. I honestly see no point in putting shooty Termies in a Land Raider when you'd rather have CC Termies in there instead so they can get into combat faster (since that's all they do).

I do not buy shooty Terminators solely for the Missiles, but you have to remember their purpose. Shooty Terminators are shooty. They should be shooting. Can I say that word enough? Adding missiles on top of their Storm Bolters gives them that extra punch, and can help them take out standard infantry or even light armor from range, while they advance across the field and contest objectives or clear enemy units off of them. They draw a lot of firepower and that 2+ save lets them shake it off. If they're getting in range of massed AP1 and AP2 weapons, they're probably able to charge and so they should. They'd have 30 S8 AP2 attacks on the charge and that's not too shabby. However, let's not forget what the unit is designed for. There's a reason they are allowed to take the heavier weapons.

I've had great success running both units the way I described, and I'm not about to change that, but to each their own. I just don't see why you'd want to hide Shooty Termies in a Land Raider, or NOT give them the Cyclones. Why not put TH/SS or LC Termies in there and get them to their desired target faster?

Just my two cents.


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## Iron_Freak220

dbgoldberg323 said:


> Second wall of valid points


So you tend to run 10 man squads of terminators? I would usually run 5. I can see shooty terminators being a better option at that size because like you said 20 shots at 24'' is nothing to laugh at. However, it is rather expensive for one squad, although I guess it's actually less points than 5 in a land raider and 10 models does have an increased survivability chance.

Let me amend my original post with a summary of the tactics presented:
*

Deep striking: 5x TH/SS

Foot slogging: 10x standard with upgraded ranged weapons

Land Raider: 5-8x TH/SS or close-combat oriented terminators*


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## dbgoldberg323

Iron_Freak220 said:


> ...Let me amend my original post with a summary of the tactics presented:
> *
> 
> Deep striking: 5x TH/SS
> 
> Foot slogging: 10x standard with upgraded ranged weapons
> 
> Land Raider: 5-8x TH/SS or close-combat oriented terminators*


100% in agreement. :yahoo:


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