# Will Corax, Vulkan, Lion, Khan, Leman Russ, and Guilliman Ever RETURN???



## DeathGuardGarro

Will they ever return? I know some have disappeared. What has happen to them?


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## Bane_of_Kings

Firstly, It might be wise to read thus thread before posting anything new, even in a different part of the forums, just as a heads up, as it's already got a link to a discussion there.

Now, back on topic, I don't think the loyalist Primarchs would ever return, unless GW moves the story on a bit towards the "end times", where it'd be awesome to see Russ appearing once again.

Bane of Kings Out.


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## DeathGuardGarro

I think for some of them to disappear without us knowing what happens to them kills part of the story. Some are sleeping well wake their asses up, we got a war to win.


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## raider1987

Thing is with the Horus Heresy being the most successful thing games workshop has ever done, the primarchs are the anchors for the series. I imagine after the Horus Heresy is complete, a lot of the characters will make appearances or be mentioned more in the 40k novels, to draw people over (like me) who have never read a 40k novel.


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## Baron Spikey

raider1987 said:


> Thing is with the Horus Heresy being the most successful thing games workshop has ever done, the primarchs are the anchors for the series. I imagine after the Horus Heresy is complete, a lot of the characters will make appearances or be mentioned more in the 40k novels, to draw people over (like me) who have never read a 40k novel.


A lot of the prominet characters in 40k who existed during the Heresy are mentioned (Abaddon, Kharne, Typhus, Lucius, Ahriman, Bjorn, Eldrad), I doubt they'll include the Primarchs- especially since with the exception of Lion El'Jonson they're probably dead.


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## Maverike Prime

Baron Spikey said:


> A lot of the prominet characters in 40k who existed during the Heresy are mentioned (Abaddon, Kharne, Typhus, Lucius, Ahriman, Bjorn, Eldrad), I doubt they'll include the Primarchs- especially since with the exception of Lion El'Jonson they're probably dead.


Actually with a few exceptions, we know that only a few of the Primarchs of Dead. Guillimen is technically not yet dead. He was mortally wounded (By Fulgrim if I remember) and was placed in stasis. According to Rumor, his wound is gradually healing but that is impossible since all time stops in the confins of a Stasis field (yeah, like 40k works that simply ) 

Corax stricken with grief over his actions during the heresy took a ship and dove into the Eye of Terror screaming "Never more!" That was the last anyone saw of him.

Alpharius is believed to have been killed by Guillimen, but even that is uncertain given how much the Alpha legion loved to employ deception in their tactics.

Russ set off on a great hunt. I don't recall if it's been stated what he is hunting, but the Space Wolves have lead numerous hunts in search of their Primarch. No one has found him.

Khan went into the Eye of Terror searching for someone. I can't remember who it was now.

Magnus, Mortarion, Fulgrim, Angeron, Perturbo, and Logar have all ascended to Daemon-hood and now rules over deaemon worlds.

Dorn died following the heresy. His skeleton is held in the Reliquarium on the Fists.

Ferrus Manuus was killed by Fulgrim during the heresy, but there is a lot of rumor that he is now residing on Mars. Once again, it's not like 40k is that concrete. 

Lion El'Johnson went all vanishing during the battle with Luther. 

Sanguinius...., well we know he's dead. Nuff said.

Cruze/Night Haunter we believe is dead, but given his far sight abilities, and the fact that he confirmed that the assassin was coming for him, I find it doubtful that we've seen the end of Cruze.

Did I forget anyone?

Edit: Oh and Vulkan left his Chapter so they could go play Hide and seek.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Maverike Prime said:


> Actually with a few exceptions, we know that only a few of the Primarchs of Dead. Guillimen is technically not yet dead. He was mortally wounded (By Fulgrim if I remember) and was placed in stasis. According to Rumor, his wound is gradually healing but that is impossible since all time stops in the confins of a Stasis field (yeah, like 40k works that simply )


Oh no. You've gone and kicked off one of _Baron's_ Guilliman rants now... :fool:


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## Maverike Prime

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Oh no. You've gone and kicked off one of _Baron's_ Guilliman rants now... :fool:


*shrugs* eh, we're all good at something.


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## raider1987

I think fewer of them are dead than most people seem to think. I mean this should give you a list of their fates and I think less than half of them are dead. And some of them that have claimed to have died are just rumor. I mean Alpharius for example. When he was 'killed' by Guilliman, it might not have been Alpharius at all. I mean ever Astrates in the Alpha legion claims to be Alpharius. And even if he did kill him, Click if you have read legion

The Alpha legion has Omegon to take over


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## Angel of Blood

Guilliman is dead, sorry folks but he is. The Space Marine codex, written by Uber-Ultramarine fan boy Matt Ward himself specifically says 'corpse' in regards to Guilliman. He is dead, dead, dead. And even if you like to think he is frozen on the point of death, he is less than a single heartbeat away from dying the moment that stasis field is lifted. The word of desperate optimistic human pilgrims claiming he is healing is not something to be taken seriously.

Dorn is dead. As the dodo, like the dinosaurs. His entire skeleton is encased in amber on the Phalanx. 

Manus is dead aswell and a tad headless aswell. The Mars thing is a joke. We now know for certain that Fulgrim decapitated him and then gave his head to Horus. (well unless your Lux but lets not get into that)

Sagnuinius is also dead, brutally murdered by Horus with a horrifying gene curse to boot.

Horus is more dead than anyone else in the 40k universe. Soul completely obliterated in what was likely the most powerful psychic assault in history.

Night Haunter is dead, his Legion having watched M'Shen run away with his now decapitated head, and then caught her.

That's quite a heavy amount of certainly dead Primarchs.

Then we have Russ and Corax. Chances are after 10,000 years of fighting in the Eye is they are dead or worse. But then i do like to point out they could come out today having only spent a year in there and that if the 13th Company managed to survive, why can't they

Vulkan. Who the fuck knows, the token black guy just vanishes completely, could even be dead on Istvaan for all we know

Khan, spent the past 10,000 years or so with the Dark Eldar in the Maelstrom. Chances are he's dead or worse(captured). Would take a massive deus ex machina to get him out of there after all this time

Lion, asleep(likely meaning in stasis) deep inside the Rock guarded by the watchers in the dark. Only loyalist Primarch with any real potential of coming back, but even then GW won't do it

Alpharius and Omegon. I like to think they are both still alive, but there is absoloutely no evidence at all to suggest they are or are not alive, other than one or neither of them potentially having died on Eskrador, which may not(and probably did not) happen 

Magnus, Mortarion, Lorgar, Angron and Perturabo are all rocking it out as deamon princes, whilst poor Fulgrim is trapped in the darkest corners of his mind, possessed and likely insane by now

That is all


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## Lord of the Night

Maverike Prime said:


> Ferrus Manuus was killed by Fulgrim during the heresy, but there is a lot of rumor that he is now residing on Mars. Once again, it's not like 40k is that concrete.
> 
> Curze/Night Haunter we believe is dead, but given his far sight abilities, and the fact that he confirmed that the assassin was coming for him, I find it doubtful that we've seen the end of Curze.


Ferrus Manus is dead without any question. He was decapitated in front of thousands of Astartes by Fulgrim, and his head was given to Horus as a trophy. Even a Primarch can't survive that, and no mechanical augmentations can resurrect the dead. Plus his own Chapter denies that he is on Mars, to the point that its dangerous to mention it to them.

And Curze is definitely dead as well. He died in vindication that by killing him, the Emperor had proven him and all of his actions to be the right ones. He wouldn't cheapen that ultimate victory by planning to survive it, he died as a martyr of justice and that is a much finer death than all the other Primarchs got.


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## Vaz

No, becuse Guilleman's going to DIE.


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## toalewa850

Just to clarify, Leman Russ went in a hunt to go kill the Chaos Space Marines.
I doubt GW will ever bring any Primarchs back.


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## Khorne's Fist

I wouldn't completely write off a primarch or two coming back. With the new edition and all it's revelations about the condition of the golden toilet, it seems over the next edition or two they are building to a massive climax that will shape the future of the Imperium, with or without the Emperor. There will have to be something or someone to step in and take the reigns, and who better than one of his sons?

As we've seen with the 13th company and in _Soul Hunter,_ time spent in the warp doesn't relate to realtime. However, I've never really been comfortable with the assumption that time always travels slower, as elsewhere in fluff, like _The First Heretic,_ it states that it can go either way. So Russ or Corax could turn out to have been in the EoT for 25,000 years in their time.


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## raider1987

Khorne's Fist said:


> I wouldn't completely write off a primarch or two coming back. With the new edition and all it's revelations about the condition of the golden toilet, it seems over the next edition or two they are building to a massive climax that will shape the future of the Imperium, with or without the Emperor. There will have to be something or someone to step in and take the reigns, and who better than one of his sons?
> 
> As we've seen with the 13th company and in _Soul Hunter,_ time spent in the warp doesn't relate to realtime. However, I've never really been comfortable with the assumption that time always travels slower, as elsewhere in fluff, like _The First Heretic,_ it states that it can go either way. So Russ or Corax could turn out to have been in the EoT for 25,000 years in their time.


Agreed completely, and if you have read 'The Voice', a short story by James Swallow in Tales of Heresy you know that you can also use the Warp to travel back in time as well.


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## AK74Bob

Wasn't Night Haunter decapitated as well? Thought I remebered in that recent Night Lords novel by ADB, that the assassin was running with his head in hand. 

BTW I think a loyal primarch will be brought back, though it can't be Dorn, Ferrus or Sanguinius. As Dorn was obliterated, Ferrus was decapitated and Sanguinius was killed by Horus. The rest could potentially be brought back. I mean Corax, Russ, Vulkan and Khan left; so they could all be alive somehow. Guilliman was mortally wounded by Fulgrim, but frozen in stasis, supposedly healing. The Lion is asleep within the Rock, he's the only one that is confirmed to still be alive. Therefore the most likely to "return".


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## Angel of Blood

Guilliman is dead, seriously, ignore that healing crap, it comes from desperate human pilgrims. Like i said before, he is even now described as a corpse in the fluff. And to be picky, Dorn wasn't obliterated, they've got his whole skeleton. And yeah, like i said in my post on the other page, Kurze was decapitated aswell.

And very true that the warp can travel both ways timewise, point was though you can't say Russ and Corax are probably dead because they have been gone for 10,000 years. They could have been in there for a significantly shorter or longer time.


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## Thyr

Angel of Blood said:


> Guilliman is dead, sorry folks but he is. The Space Marine codex, written by Uber-Ultramarine fan boy Matt Ward himself specifically says 'corpse' in regards to Guilliman. He is dead, dead, dead. And even if you like to think he is frozen on the point of death, he is less than a single heartbeat away from dying the moment that stasis field is lifted. The word of desperate optimistic human pilgrims claiming he is healing is not something to be taken seriously.
> 
> Dorn is dead. As the dodo, like the dinosaurs. His entire skeleton is encased in amber on the Phalanx.
> 
> Manus is dead aswell and a tad headless aswell. The Mars thing is a joke. We now know for certain that Fulgrim decapitated him and then gave his head to Horus. (well unless your Lux but lets not get into that)
> 
> Sagnuinius is also dead, brutally murdered by Horus with a horrifying gene curse to boot.
> 
> Horus is more dead than anyone else in the 40k universe. Soul completely obliterated in what was likely the most powerful psychic assault in history.
> 
> Night Haunter is dead, his Legion having watched M'Shen run away with his now decapitated head, and then caught her.
> 
> That's quite a heavy amount of certainly dead Primarchs.
> 
> Then we have Russ and Corax. Chances are after 10,000 years of fighting in the Eye is they are dead or worse. But then i do like to point out they could come out today having only spent a year in there and that if the 13th Company managed to survive, why can't they
> 
> Vulkan. Who the fuck knows, the token black guy just vanishes completely, could even be dead on Istvaan for all we know
> 
> Khan, spent the past 10,000 years or so with the Dark Eldar in the Maelstrom. Chances are he's dead or worse(captured). Would take a massive deus ex machina to get him out of there after all this time
> 
> Lion, asleep(likely meaning in stasis) deep inside the Rock guarded by the watchers in the dark. Only loyalist Primarch with any real potential of coming back, but even then GW won't do it
> 
> Alpharius and Omegon. I like to think they are both still alive, but there is absoloutely no evidence at all to suggest they are or are not alive, other than one or neither of them potentially having died on Eskrador, which may not(and probably did not) happen
> 
> Magnus, Mortarion, Lorgar, Angron and Perturabo are all rocking it out as deamon princes, whilst poor Fulgrim is trapped in the darkest corners of his mind, possessed and likely insane by now
> 
> That is all


I agree with everything except when it comes to Vulkan. Vulkan is mentioned as one of the Primarchs who wasn't fond of the Codex Astartes which means he definately survived Istvaan.


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## Angel of Blood

Thyr said:


> I agree with everything except when it comes to Vulkan. Vulkan is mentioned as one of the Primarchs who wasn't fond of the Codex Astartes which means he definately survived Istvaan.


You say that, yet plenty of things have changed since then. The last we have seen of him in the HH series was being hit by a massive explosion of some kind and being right in the epicentre of it with no apparent way out. Sure something will come up, but for the moment looks pretty dire for him


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## DeathGuardGarro

Why would they want to take away some of the Primarchs? I mean Chaos has Daemon Princes and Gods. Imperium only has astartes. Why not bring back one or more Loyalist Primarchs. They can Be the new heading of the Imperium. I love reading about astartes but when reading about the Primarchs it was amazing. I just hate that they took so much from the story by making all Primarchs dissappear. 

They should start a new series with some of the Loyalist Primarchs returning and with the start of a New crusade. A crusade against the Chaos gods.


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## AK74Bob

Your telling me, a smurf, that Guilliman is dead? HAHA, heresy...and I agree with DG Garro, they should bring back a loyalist primarch, even if it is just the Lion.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

DeathGuardGarro said:


> Why would they want to take away some of the Primarchs? I mean Chaos has Daemon Princes and Gods. Imperium only has astartes. Why not bring back one or more Loyalist Primarchs. They can Be the new heading of the Imperium. I love reading about astartes but when reading about the Primarchs it was amazing. I just hate that they took so much from the story by making all Primarchs dissappear.


The tale of the Primarchs has been told. Their fading is symbolic; of the end of the resurgent golden age, of chaos' influence on mankind, of the extent of Horus' treachery, but most of all of the passing of hope. The Emperor and his Primarchs represented the last hope of mankind, now with their passing that hope has faded, and mankind faces destruction. 

The Primarchs are ancient heroes, only appearing in near-forgotten folklore and myth. They are similar to British folklore heroes of say Robin Hood and King Arthur, but only to a much greater extent (in the sense that they actually were mankind's last hope, because of their failure we now face either death or enslavement to the chaos gods). GW/BL will never bring any of the loyalist Primarchs back, they have stated so on several occassions. Because doing so would not improve the plotline or backstory at all, it would near-ruin it.



DeathGuardGarro said:


> They should start a new series with some of the Loyalist Primarchs returning and with the start of a New crusade. A crusade against the Chaos gods.


What would be the point? Such a thing would go against the entire philosophy of the 40k background; Grimdark. Mankind had it's chance to challenge the dominance of chaos, that was the Great Crusade, and we failed. Now humanity must face the long road into ruin, with nothing able to prevent it. It would be a terrible plot-device to have the Primarchs return and kick-start a new crusade (not that they would be able to anyway).


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## nightfish

toalewa850 said:


> I doubt GW will ever bring any Primarchs back.


Exactly. What stats would you give them.

Even the ones who are alive seem to be quite happy sitting atop some tower on a daemon world. Strange since I would think they'd be leading attacks personally. Oh well.

Saying all that, maybe the retun of a primarch or two is the sort of shakeup the 40k world needs.


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## DeathGuardGarro

I think a new series of Books Of Loyalist Primarchs returning and Leading a New Crusade against the Chaos gods, would be GREAT! Revenge for the Death of the Emperor.


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## ChaplinWhulfgar

What did Fulgrim stab papa Smurf with was it the blade that could kill anything. From the first heretic a primarch can take getting run through with a power claw and get up like its nothin and then have the wound heal like five minutes later.


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## Angel of Blood

In all likely hood it was tha anathame from the books, seeing as Fulgrim was the last one known to have it and we know just how deadly it is. Guilliman got slashed across the throat with it, and then the poison flowed through his system and they got him into stasis about a heartbeat away from him snuffing it. So it's still there, coursing through his system, about to kill him the very second that status field is lifted.


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## DeathGuardGarro

I wish Fulgrim never went Chaos. He is my Fav Primarch. Same with Mortorion. I can see why the other went Chaos. But these Two I wish didnt.


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## Maverike Prime

Angel of Blood said:


> Vulkan. Who the fuck knows, the token black guy just vanishes completely, could even be dead on Istvaan for all we know
> 
> Lion, asleep(likely meaning in stasis) deep inside the Rock guarded by the watchers in the dark. Only loyalist Primarch with any real potential of coming back, but even then GW won't do it


Vulkan left the Salamanders clues to find his gifts and word that once they find all 9 of them, he will return. 

Lion is not in the Rock. Luther is in the Rock.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Maverike Prime said:


> Lion is not in the Rock. Luther is in the Rock.


They both are.


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## Angel of Blood

Indeed. Luther is in one of the rocks deepest chambers imprisoned. Only the Grand Master of the Dark Angels knows he is there and they will every so often go and interogate him and try and find out what he knows. For the most part though he appears insane, babbling incoherently about the Lion, how 'they' took him and that he will return to forgive him.

Meanwhile even deeper in the Rock is Jonson himself, guarded over by the watchers in the dark. No one knows about this except perhaps the Emperor himself, possibly Luther and some people seem to think Cypher might know aswell.


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## Maverike Prime

Angel of Blood said:


> Indeed. Luther is in one of the rocks deepest chambers imprisoned. Only the Grand Master of the Dark Angels knows he is there and they will every so often go and interogate him and try and find out what he knows. For the most part though he appears insane, babbling incoherently about the Lion, how 'they' took him and that he will return to forgive him.
> 
> Meanwhile even deeper in the Rock is Jonson himself, guarded over by the watchers in the dark. No one knows about this except perhaps the Emperor himself, possibly Luther and some people seem to think Cypher might know aswell.


Where is that said? All the stuff I knew about the Emo-marines (which is little I admit) said that Lion was taken into the warp during the battle of Luthor.


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## Angel of Blood

Maverike Prime said:


> Where is that said? All the stuff I knew about the Emo-marines (which is little I admit) said that Lion was taken into the warp during the battle of Luthor.


This is all from the various Dark Angel codexes and Index Astartes. Where have you read the Lion got spirited away into the warp? In every version i can remember reading it almost always ends with the revelation that he is hidden in the Rock itself.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

I think he may be referring to the Fallen Angels being scattered through space and time via the warp.


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## Maverike Prime

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I think he may be referring to the Fallen Angels being scattered through space and time via the warp.


well that as well. But also I read.... I can't recall the title now. It's a Dark Angels novel. It might even have been titled Dark Angel. I don't have the book any more to confirm the title. But basically the entirety of the book is from the perspective of an Interrogator interrogating a Captured fallen. For the majority of the book it reads as if the Fallen is corrupting the interrogator until at the very end the interrogator had been playing the fallen the entire time and merely humoring him to incite him to speak more. The fallen specifically referenced having fought on Caliban during the great battle and mentioned seeing Lion taken with the others.


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## AK74Bob

The novel you refer to is _Angels of Darkness_, by Gav Thorpe. Its revealed to Astellan, one of the Fallen, that Luther is indeed in the Rock, but I don't recall anything being said about the Lion getting spirited away.


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## BrotherArcadius

Ya El'Johnson is def in the Rock. What kills me is that, according to all the DA books, he may be the traitor and Luther may be innocent.


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## Baron Spikey

BrotherArcadius said:


> Ya El'Johnson is def in the Rock. What kills me is that, according to all the DA books, he may be the traitor and Luther may be innocent.


Luther might be misguided but he's also definitely a traitor- so whilst it isn't conclusive that both leaders of the DA were traitors, one most certainly is.

Edit: Thought I'd best explain what I meant to those who don't know- Luthor definitely rebelled against the Imperium, that we know without a doubt. Whether the Lion was tempted to rebel, or did secretly, we don't know for certain.


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## DeathGuardGarro

So the Lion could in fact be a traitor primarch?


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## Brother Subtle

^ nah. Don't get caught up in silly DA conspiracys. Lion was loyal, Luther was a traitor. However, Luther believed himself to be righteous and was not actively supporting the warmaster... I think in Thorpe's angels of darkness novel he says the Lion was waiting to see how the battle of terra panned out before he decided who to follow. I think this is something that will get cleaned up in the following HH books.

As for the guy on page 1 who said that we haven't heard the last of Curze... I find it hard to see him coming back... Without a head.


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## Angel of Blood

BrotherArcadius said:


> Ya El'Johnson is def in the Rock. What kills me is that, according to all the DA books, he may be the traitor and Luther may be innocent.


Actually it is only according to the one book and it's all told from the heavily biased opinion of a Fallen Angel anyway. The HH books and others have shown me nothing to suggest he is a traitor or a fence sitter. Fallen Angels cemented it entirely for me, none of Jonsons actions and conversations in the book are the signs of a traitor, he is suitably angry and sadened at the news of Horus betrayal, yet he goes right ahead to attempt to deny Horus a vital resource for the coming war. And although of course one BL writers opinion doesn't make it fact, ADB is also on the side of Jonson being loyal, or he certainly seems that way from what he said about The First Heretic


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## DeathGuardGarro

Curze has no head, why?


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## Baron Spikey

DeathGuardGarro said:


> Curze has no head, why?


Because he got really drunk one night at that bar, you know the one across from the place? Anyway he woke up, how he got home we'll never know, and silly bastard couldn't remember where he'd left his head. Ah how we laughed.


Why do you think he doesn't have a head? It was cut off.


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## AK74Bob

DeathGuardGarro said:


> Curze has no head, why?


That assassin decapitated him.


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