# Fluff complaints?



## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

Alright, we all know that 40k fluff is inconsistent and unreliable. I think a lot of it is easy to overlook, like minor details being different in two books by different authors that have some overlap. But some of it is just frustratingly contradictory. I was wondering what examples people had of fluff contradictions that just drive you crazy.

I just finished reading Mechanicum, the first full length novel I've finished from BL (I tried a couple others, but they obviously should have been short stories that just repeated boring facts and observations to fill pages). It has really bugged me how assassins are shown in the lore. I heard of a battle where 400 SM lead a frontal assault on an assassin enclave of some sort of 100 assassins, and die to all but the last man. It irritates me that just well-trained people are shown as being so far superior to genetically and mechanically engineered superhuman soldiers so consistently. 

I also remember reading the Tyranid codex when I tried getting into the game a long time ago, and got annoyed by their descriptions of the Tyranid invasions, saying the first one was something like 200 years ago and no one really knows anything about it because the records were lost. This does not add up since there are SM dicking around through space still who are WAY older than that! 

Another one that bugged me was reading somewhere that if the Emperor dies, humanity will have a fall like that of the Eldar, but the new "eye of terror" from it would consume the whole galaxy, since the Imperium is bigger than the Eldar empire was. How does that make sense? Eldar were undisputed for 60 million years, and they couldn't conquer a mostly empty galaxy, but the Imperium did it in 2-300 years? No fucking way.


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## PlayingWithHammers (Nov 7, 2013)

Eversor Assassins have been really disappointing. 

You expect something like a cross between the Tasmanian Devil and The Flash, a blur of death leaving hundreds of corpses behind and in BL lit you end up with an angry bloke that may or may not be able to take down a space marine. The last one I read about of got stopped by a few hive gangers, pathetic.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

As a longtime player (24 years ish) the fluff has always been inconsistent and novels have always departed to some degree from the tone and quality of the rulebook fluff text.

As you say, I suspect that got worse not better with the introduction of Black Library. Specifically because there are now so many more cooks in the kitchen. 

The other thing to keep in mind is superlative use. The Warhammer universe is full of characters described as the "most powerful", "the most good", "the most evil", etc. Qualitatively describing so many different groups in such strong "epic" language naturally leads to a degree of inflation. I mean that both in terms of exaggeration and in scope creep, where one all powerful thing is more powerful than the last all powerful thing.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Tyriks said:


> It irritates me that just well-trained people are shown as being so far superior to genetically and mechanically engineered superhuman soldiers so consistently.


I believe Talos from _Soulhunter_ nailed this one. Basically assassins are designed to do one thing and that's to kill. They're very effective at that.

Astartes are designed to be soldiers. It's a nuance difference but basically if you need someone killed, sign up an assassin. If you want a world taken by force on a battlefield, ring up a Space Marine.



Tyriks said:


> I also remember reading the Tyranid codex when I tried getting into the game a long time ago, and got annoyed by their descriptions of the Tyranid invasions, saying the first one was something like 200 years ago and no one really knows anything about it because the records were lost. This does not add up since there are SM dicking around through space still who are WAY older than that!


The record was "lost" because all the people that knew anything about the Tyranids got nommed up. No one to report means no one else gets to know about it.



Tyriks said:


> Another one that bugged me was reading somewhere that if the Emperor dies, humanity will have a fall like that of the Eldar, but the new "eye of terror" from it would consume the whole galaxy, since the Imperium is bigger than the Eldar empire was. How does that make sense? Eldar were undisputed for 60 million years, and they couldn't conquer a mostly empty galaxy, but the Imperium did it in 2-300 years? No fucking way.


Uhh...where did you read this? the Imperium is very likely much smaller (in terms of planets controlled) than the old Eldar empire.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

hailene said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Tyriks
> Another one that bugged me was reading somewhere that if the Emperor dies, humanity will have a fall like that of the Eldar, but the new "eye of terror" from it would consume the whole galaxy, since the Imperium is bigger than the Eldar empire was. How does that make sense? Eldar were undisputed for 60 million years, and they couldn't conquer a mostly empty galaxy, but the Imperium did it in 2-300 years? No fucking way.
> 
> Uhh...where did you read this? the Imperium is very likely much smaller (in terms of planets controlled) than the old Eldar empire.


It might be a mix of two pieces of fluff here. I Think I have red that if the Emperor dies it will create a second Eye. The other piece would be that if the Pilars/Pylons on Cadia where destroyed the Eye of Terror would grow to engulf the galaxy.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

:goodpost:

That's what I recall too.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Almost the entirety of the Damocles and Mont'ka campaign books fluff. It's just so fucking shit. Fire warriors out stealthing Raven Guard. Hundreds of Space Marines being killed in the opening moments of the battle. I'm pretty sure if you read and tallied up both books kills, the entire Raven Guard and White Scars chapter were killed many times over. Even the RG chapter master for fucks sake. And at the end of it the Raven Guard are just like 'Well, we're needed elsewhere in other fights', whereas they pretty much lost their entire chapter strength are would be critically endangered. 

So yeah, it bugs me when authors write stuff like that to show how powerful and amazing the Tau are(or how much they love them in anycase), without really thinking about the numbers of casualties they are writing about. It's clear the writer did not even begin to think of how a chapter is only 1000 marines and just throws random casualty numbers out with no thought. 

The horrendous and obvious bias to the Tau throughout the whole book is just awful. Even by GW standards.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

Angel of Blood said:


> Almost the entirety of the Damocles and Mont'ka campaign books fluff. It's just so fucking shit. Fire warriors out stealthing Raven Guard. Hundreds of Space Marines being killed in the opening moments of the battle. I'm pretty sure if you read and tallied up both books kills, the entire Raven Guard and White Scars chapter were killed many times over. Even the RG chapter master for fucks sake. And at the end of it the Raven Guard are just like 'Well, we're needed elsewhere in other fights', whereas they pretty much lost their entire chapter strength are would be critically endangered.
> 
> So yeah, it bugs me when authors write stuff like that to show how powerful and amazing the Tau are(or how much they love them in anycase), without really thinking about the numbers of casualties they are writing about. It's clear the writer did not even begin to think of how a chapter is only 1000 marines and just throws random casualty numbers out with no thought.
> 
> The horrendous and obvious bias to the Tau throughout the whole book is just awful. Even by GW standards.


The fact that the Tau are even competing with other races bugs me. It is said over and over that their faster than light travel blows, because it doesn't involve the Warp. So, for any other race, eliminating them would be easy, even with a relatively small force. If someone attacks them, as soon as reinforcements show up, you Warp away, and those reinforcements are stuck at the first site. They would never be able to keep up.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

Moriouce said:


> It might be a mix of two pieces of fluff here. I Think I have red that if the Emperor dies it will create a second Eye. The other piece would be that if the Pilars/Pylons on Cadia where destroyed the Eye of Terror would grow to engulf the galaxy.


I have no idea what pylons on Cadia are so that's not what I was thinking of. It would have either been one of the fluff pieces in a codex or a quote I found on the 40k wiki. It's possible the quote was a character's theory and not a fact, but the idea was that the eye of terror marks the boundaries of the Eldar empire, and the Imperium extends across the whole galaxy (though much more of it is contested than for the Eldar).

And as for the record being lost due to no survivors, there were explicitly said to have been survivors.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Tyriks said:


> The fact that the Tau are even competing with other races bugs me. It is said over and over that their faster than light travel blows, because it doesn't involve the Warp. So, for any other race, eliminating them would be easy, even with a relatively small force. If someone attacks them, as soon as reinforcements show up, you Warp away, and those reinforcements are stuck at the first site. They would never be able to keep up.


The Imperium literally sets the Damocles Gulf on fire at its conclusion, crippling the Tau and setting back their expansion immensely. Why not just keep exterminating their worlds.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

When there are contradictions across several books, but considering the sheer amount of fluff, and number of different writers, it's to be expected. 

However, the one that annoyed me most was in the same book. In the first SW codex if said that Ulrik the Slayer was a wolf guard during the first battle of Armageddon (of which overall command was held by Great Wolf Logan Grimnar), and afterwards turned down becoming a Wolf Lord to become a Wolf Priest instead. However, in Grimnar's entry it stated that it was Ulrik as a Wolf Priest that discovered Grimnar and brought him into the chapter. I think this one actually carried across into the next codex as well.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Tyriks said:


> I have no idea what pylons on Cadia are so that's not what I was thinking of. It would have either been one of the fluff pieces in a codex or a quote I found on the 40k wiki. It's possible the quote was a character's theory and not a fact, but the idea was that the eye of terror marks the boundaries of the Eldar empire, and the Imperium extends across the whole galaxy (though much more of it is contested than for the Eldar).
> 
> And as for the record being lost due to no survivors, there were explicitly said to have been survivors.


Stay away from the Wikia. The Lex is using pretty safe, but before "learning" anything, I would look up the original sources and read those before adding it to my fluff knowledge.



Tyriks said:


> And as for the record being lost due to no survivors, there were explicitly said to have been survivors.


Uh...what? How? Rereading the fluff you're off a couple of points it seems to me.

Everyone on Tyran died. Inquisitor Kryptman was able to find Magos Varnak’s data-codex with all the information he could put into before he got nommed like everyone else.

From there...I don't see anything about the record for Tyranids being lost from the entirety of the Imperium. Could you cite your source that states so?


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

hailene said:


> Uh...what? How? Rereading the fluff you're off a couple of points it seems to me.
> 
> Everyone on Tyran died. Inquisitor Kryptman was able to find Magos Varnak’s data-codex with all the information he could put into before he got nommed like everyone else.
> 
> From there...I don't see anything about the record for Tyranids being lost from the entirety of the Imperium. Could you cite your source that states so?


It would have been either the SM codex or BRB from 4th/5th. One of them referenced a marine who had survived fighting the Tyranids at Tyran.

I could have somehow mixed something up, but I remember reading it as a brand new player and being concerned about such an obvious error popping up so quickly.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Tyriks said:


> It would have been either the SM codex or BRB from 4th/5th. One of them referenced a marine who had survived fighting the Tyranids at Tyran.
> 
> I could have somehow mixed something up, but I remember reading it as a brand new player and being concerned about such an obvious error popping up so quickly.


Hive Fleet Behemoth ate Tyran and eventually made its way to Ultramar where the Ultramarines broke its back.

There were no space marines on Tyran when it was devoured.

The Blood Angels purged a space hulk with genestealers 150 years before Tyran. They didn't pay it any particular attention and just figured it one of the million other Xenos in the galaxy to be purged. Since the genestealers probably looked very different from the Tyranids that assaulted Tyran, the connection wasn't immediately obvious.

Edit: Whoops, forgot to address your other question



Tyriks said:


> but the idea was that the eye of terror marks the boundaries of the Eldar empire, and the Imperium extends across the whole galaxy (though much more of it is contested than for the Eldar).


The Eye of Terror does not encompass the entirety of the former Eldar empire. It's only a tiny fraction of it.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

hailene said:


> Whoops, forgot to address your other question
> 
> The Eye of Terror does not encompass the entirety of the former Eldar empire. It's only a tiny fraction of it.


I'm not asking questions, I'm pointing out inconsistencies with the story, as we are given it. 

Here's a screenshot from the last Eldar codex. It says clearly that the eye of Terror is the entirety of the old Eldar empire.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Tyriks said:


> I'm not asking questions, I'm pointing out inconsistencies with the story, as we are given it.
> 
> Here's a screenshot from the last Eldar codex. It says clearly that the eye of Terror is the entirety of the old Eldar empire.


I'm guessing you're reading to "of old". I'm sure there are some interpretations--likely one that you hold, too--that you believe "of old" means the entirety of the old empire. That's not necessarily the case.

It could mean the oldest portions of their empire. The original center.

The portions on the Exodites in the codex offer a possible answer. 

1. The Exodites flee to "found colony worlds on the* fringes of the Eldar empire.*" (pg. 7)

2. The Exodites "settled in the furthest reaches of the galaxy". (pg. 20)

Therefore we know that the Eldar empire spread to the "furthest reaches of the galaxy".

It's easy to draw conclusions based on limited information. English is not the most specific of languages, so there's often times some wiggle room in interpretation. 

Did the original author intend this? Good question, but we can piece together enough to make it all make sense.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

hailene said:


> I'm guessing you're reading to "of old". I'm sure there are some interpretations--likely one that you hold, too--that you believe "of old" means the entirety of the old empire. That's not necessarily the case.
> 
> It could mean the oldest portions of their empire. The original center.


There's literally nothing in the context to indicate that, and everything indicates that they mean the empire as of the time of the fall, since that is the only time that is being discussed. The quotes you supplied only enforce my point - that the fluff is inconsistent. Sure, we can mentally squint until the text adds up, but that's not the point of the thread. It's to complain about the fact that we have to do that in the first place.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Tyriks said:


> There's literally nothing in the context to indicate that, and everything indicates that they mean the empire as of the time of the fall, since that is the only time that is being discussed. The quotes you supplied only enforce my point - that the fluff is inconsistent. Sure, we can mentally squint until the text adds up, but that's not the point of the thread. It's to complain about the fact that we have to do that in the first place.


That's the point. If there two interpretations of the fluff--one that considers the "empire of old" the entirety or one that considers it only the oldest portion of the empire (both potentially valid)--and then there's another entry that states parts of the empire had not fallen...

If you want to stick to your initial interpretation of the fluff that's your decision. Saying it contradicts itself when there are ways to make it work...sure, that's your choice, too.

I'd suggest trying to be a bit more flexible. It's almost fun trying to make this tapestry of 100 different weavers into some coherent piece of work.

Minus stuff from Ben Counter and Goto. I pretend they don't exist and I sleep much better at night.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

hailene said:


> That's the point. If there two interpretations of the fluff--one that considers the "empire of old" the entirety or one that considers it only the oldest portion of the empire (both potentially valid)--and then there's another entry that states parts of the empire had not fallen...
> 
> If you want to stick to your initial interpretation of the fluff that's your decision. Saying it contradicts itself when there are ways to make it work...sure, that's your choice, too.
> 
> ...


Just because an interpretation exists doesn't make it valid. The text itself doesn't indicate in any way that it is making a distinction between the Eldar at the time of the fall and some unstated point further back than that. It is talking about the empire at the time of the fall before that point and after that point. I could interpret that to mean the empire ten years ago, but there's no justification for it. If the author meant to indicate that this was the empire from some unstated point before the fall, they did a terrible job communicating that. Either way, bad writing.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Tyriks said:


> Just because an interpretation exists doesn't make it valid. The text itself doesn't indicate in any way that it is making a distinction between the Eldar at the time of the fall and some unstated point further back than that. It is talking about the empire at the time of the fall before that point and after that point. I could interpret that to mean the empire ten years ago, but there's no justification for it. If the author meant to indicate that this was the empire from some unstated point before the fall, they did a terrible job communicating that. Either way, bad writing.


I wish I knew more about the Eldar (I think they're sorta boring, to be honest), but I'm looking at other sources...

The DE codex says that only the epicentre of the Eldar empire was swallowed by the Eye of Terror.

If you can get over the "realms of old" part as not meaning the entirety of the Eldar empire (which may or may not be the case) everything else falls in line. In fact, other pieces of the fluff argue against it, since the webway, part of the Eldar empire, was not enveloped, hence the Dark Eldar's survival. 

/shrug Take it as you will. I'm clearly not going to change your mind, anyway.

So any other issues you'd like to chat about?


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

hailene said:


> I wish I knew more about the Eldar (I think they're sorta boring, to be honest), but I'm looking at other sources...
> 
> The DE codex says that only the epicentre of the Eldar empire was swallowed by the Eye of Terror.
> 
> ...


To clarify, I'm not saying you are interpreting the text wrong. I'm saying that if you are right, the authors did a bad job of communicating it.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Tyriks said:


> To clarify, I'm not saying you are interpreting the text wrong. I'm saying that if you are right, the authors did a bad job of communicating it.


Yeah. I agree with you on that point.

If I read that paragraph and didn't take the rest of the fluff into account, I wholeheartedly agree with you. It makes sense that it "Elder empire of old" be the entirety of it. But we have to reconcile it with the rest of the fluff and hence my own interpretation.

There are other instances of this (like the discrepancy of Legion fleet power in the FW books). It takes a bit of digging and dancing, but it mostly jives together.

I find it's less the bigger pieces of fluff that fail to work but the small ones. As mentioned earlier, how often Space Marines die and how easily they do. There was an Armageddon novel where a Space Marine lost his arm in a fight and asked an Apothocary to mercy kill him because he was somehow beyond saving.

Made my fluff heart weep.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

hailene said:


> I find it's less the bigger pieces of fluff that fail to work but the small ones. As mentioned earlier, how often Space Marines die and how easily they do. There was an Armageddon novel where a Space Marine lost his arm in a fight and asked an Apothocary to mercy kill him because he was somehow beyond saving.
> 
> Made my fluff heart weep.


Haha, that is pretty terrible!


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

hailene said:


> I wish I knew more about the Eldar (I think they're sorta boring, to be honest)


qft.

I was kinda annoyed that mah Bangles (truly enjoying this word and just found out about it over the last week) got fangs in the recent sculpts. They really didn't need to get literal about the fangs, I'm pretty sure that there's no fluff instances of any of them having fangs as per the Red Thirst or Black Rage but all I can reference is a damn hazy (but going back to 2nd-ish edition) knowledge of 40k's Blood Angel lore.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

ntaw said:


> qft.
> 
> I was kinda annoyed that mah Bangles (truly enjoying this word and just found out about it over the last week) got fangs in the recent sculpts. They really didn't need to get literal about the fangs, I'm pretty sure that there's no fluff instances of any of them having fangs as per the Red Thirst or Black Rage but all I can reference is a damn hazy (but going back to 2nd-ish edition) knowledge of 40k's Blood Angel lore.


They have fangs now? I gotta see this.

EDIT: Ok, they have fangs, and stupidly opened mouths to show off the fangs. That said, those are nice models! I looked at the tac squad, much better than vanilla marines.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

hailene said:


> I wish I knew more about the Eldar (I think they're sorta boring, to be honest), but I'm looking at other sources...
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Tyriks said:


> To clarify, I'm not saying you are interpreting the text wrong. I'm saying that if you are right, the authors did a bad job of communicating it.



I've followed the Eldar fluff since 2nd ed and it has always been clear to me. The Eldar empire at the Fall spaned the galaxy. From their homeworld to the Exoditeworlds on the fringes. But unlike the Empire of Man the eldar empire had a lower concentration of worlds the further from their homeworld you went. Despite this they where undisputed whenever they went. Now it is clear that the cataclysm that created the Eye centered on the original homeworlds(realms of old) where the highest concentration of eldar lives and world where and where the deprevation had reach highest. 

Now to answer the question if the whole of the Empire was engulfed you need to define if the Exodites, craftworlds and those living in the webway where part of the empire or not. Either way the Empire per se ceased to exist.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Tyriks said:


> Ok, they have fangs, and stupidly opened mouths to show off the fangs. That said, those are nice models! I looked at the tac squad, much better than vanilla marines.


Yeah, it would have been sweet to have an army entirely made up of the fancy new models; but no dice. They'll make a great Sternguard squad though I'll be melting down the fang-head out of spite.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

@ntaw my earliest recollection of the Bangles and (their hit _Walk like a space marine_) and fangs was the introduction of Mephiston in 2nd Ed. He clearly had fangs and in one illustration was seen wiping blood from his mouth. 

On the other hand, if you recall the space marine creation process, ALL space marines have fangs or some sort of enhanced canines.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Tyriks said:


> I just finished reading Mechanicum, the first full length novel I've finished from BL (I tried a couple others, but they obviously should have been short stories that just repeated boring facts and observations to fill pages). It has really bugged me how assassins are shown in the lore. I heard of a battle where 400 SM lead a frontal assault on an assassin enclave of some sort of 100 assassins, and die to all but the last man. It irritates me that just well-trained people are shown as being so far superior to genetically and mechanically engineered superhuman soldiers so consistently.


So the idea that assassins, fighting on their home soil against astartes who aren't known for being subtle would lose against beings trained to strike at only the opportune moment?


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Are you talking about this Lestat-esque picture of him @Kreuger?


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Yep, that would be the one. Man, Mark Gibbons did great work.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

At least it doesn't look like this:










*shudders* Maybe I just don't want to see them on my models.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

Reaper45 said:


> So the idea that assassins, fighting on their home soil against astartes who aren't known for being subtle would lose against beings trained to strike at only the opportune moment?


A trained assassin versus a genetically engineered superhuman who has been fighting on the front lines for centuries... Especially when the astartes know they are about to fight against them... I would expect some initial heavy losses from the marines, but not a near-extermination. 

On top of that, this fight would have been combat assassins aren't used to. They don't fight battles, they fight solo. If the assassins were space marines who were found to be good at subtle combat and trained to be assassins, it would be easier to swallow. But they are just regular people fighting against people so tough and powerful that regular people liken them to demigods.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

Also, really I was frustrated about a scene in Mechanicum. I'm going to try to use spoiler tags for the first time here to explain what was frustrating.



Mechanicum has a scene in which an assassin comes to a very powerful tech-priests forge. That tech-priest had been largely protected from the heretical attacks on Mars because she invented a new type of comms network for her forge that no one else knew how to use (this is oversimplified for expediency). So, the assassin shows up, uses that very same comms network with the offhand comment "we know about this" and uses it to hack a talented junior tech-priest's brain to death without the tech-priest (or even the dude being hacked) noticing. This wasn't even for any purpose, she just got bored and wanted to do it during a conversation with the tech-priest. If it's that easy, how did anyone survive that time period?


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

ntaw said:


> At least it doesn't look like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It seems like if they were just peeking out, it would be a lot less annoying (and easier to deal with), but he just looks like an idiot at, say, a frat costume party. Why would he just chill on a battlefield with his mouth hanging open like that? Reminds me of this.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

Angel of Blood said:


> Almost the entirety of the Damocles and Mont'ka campaign books fluff. It's just so fucking shit. Fire warriors out stealthing Raven Guard. Hundreds of Space Marines being killed in the opening moments of the battle. I'm pretty sure if you read and tallied up both books kills, the entire Raven Guard and White Scars chapter were killed many times over. Even the RG chapter master for fucks sake. And at the end of it the Raven Guard are just like 'Well, we're needed elsewhere in other fights', whereas they pretty much lost their entire chapter strength are would be critically endangered.
> 
> So yeah, it bugs me when authors write stuff like that to show how powerful and amazing the Tau are(or how much they love them in anycase), without really thinking about the numbers of casualties they are writing about. It's clear the writer did not even begin to think of how a chapter is only 1000 marines and just throws random casualty numbers out with no thought.
> 
> The horrendous and obvious bias to the Tau throughout the whole book is just awful. Even by GW standards.


Hasn't this always been the case? In pretty much any book I read about Tau vs Imperium, the author has been wanking Tau out of proportions, In the older Damocles anthology collection , we see a White Scar Captain fighting equally with Shadowsun in meele combat. 

I don't know if the new Tau codex changed things and made Tau better in melee, but Shadowsun actually held her own against a fucking astartes captain and even managed to deliver a couple of armour-powered blows. 

That was pretty pathetic if you ask me. Not only that, bu the Tau have managed to survive multiple ambushes made by Raven Guard and Catachan Jungle fighters together, and turn things around. We also see Shadowsun casually killing a Librarian from afar while he was in middle of casting. I feel like Tau are new Grey Knights and the wank is getting out of hand.


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## Rush Darling (Apr 30, 2015)

As a Raven Guard player, loving the Tau hate. That filthy Kauyon supplement really hurt my delicate, delicate feelings. In my mind Tau belong (along the eternally shifting scale of power) in the region of incredibly well equipped guardsman, where technology and superior (but not inhuman) martial discipline win the day. Whoever wrote the Kauyon supplement never wavered in their knowledge that Tau were going to win hands down, and decided after that fact to write veteran members of first founding space marine chapters as though they were Ogryns going hulk mode in their first battle ever. Ab.so.lute, unmitigated, garbage. (Re-write it and give my Chapter Master a decent death, you amateurish cretin!). To describe writing of this standard as adolescent would be to insult stupid teenagers doing stupid things the world over. God. Damned. Weeaboos.

Breathe darling, breathe.

Moving on. I'm very interested in this Assassin battle I've probably read and forgotten about, but i'm not sure where this impression that assassins are simply highly skilled humans came from. Reading from the wikia ( which presumably came from somewhere ) Their selection process is so harrowing that it put's some Astartes recruitment rites to shame, and their augmentations, whilst different to an Astartes, are probably at least comparable in terms of depth and complexity.

To find fluffy inconsistency you need look no further than The Iron Snakes novel, which sometimes portrays each single space marine as an almost unassailable bastion of destruction, and compare it to pretty much any other novel which throws power armoured red shirts down the drain so fast it'll make your head spin. HI KAUYON!

All in all there's so many writers it'd be impossible, or even boring, for all of the writing to be consistent. On the plus side there's so much material that you can usually find exciting parts that fit in with your own imagined universe, and that's part of what makes it great.

I've played other table top games, X-wing among them, but in spite of being a huge star wars fan there's nothing else that even compares to the depth and complexity of 40k to me. Not perfect, but damned if it isn't brilliant most of the time.


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## Doom wolf (Oct 10, 2014)

Emperor's children and Imperial Fist.

It infuriate me that each very few time they are portrayed in a book, they tend to die, or loose.

So okay, I'm aware that the Emperor's Children are an uneasy subject to portray handily without offending many people, but by the eye ! Even the few survivng loyalist tend to die almost as soon as they appear....


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

Doom wolf said:


> Emperor's children and Imperial Fist.
> 
> It infuriate me that each very few time they are portrayed in a book, they tend to die, or loose.
> 
> So okay, I'm aware that the Emperor's Children are an uneasy subject to portray handily without offending many people, but by the eye ! Even the few survivng loyalist tend to die almost as soon as they appear....


I'm pretty uninformed about Chaos fluff. What makes the Emperor's Children an uneasy subject?


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## Doom wolf (Oct 10, 2014)

Tyriks said:


> I'm pretty uninformed about Chaos fluff. What makes the Emperor's Children an uneasy subject?


Well you know, It's a Slaanesh worshiping faction : Most of the time, Slaanesh are visually portrayed as hedonistic-demonistic-drug addict-BDSM maniacs. Quite a bad subject for a company that try to refresh his customer pool among the young people. ("_Hey daddy ! Look at my new army minis of drug-abusing crazies !_") 

I always felt that Games Workshop was awkward with Slaanesh, and AoS has quite confirmed my feelings about that. Slaanesh was at first _Chaos god of pleasure_, then became _Gods of excess_...then it god basically dumped in Age of Sigmar. I feel the only reason it hasn't got dumped in WH40K was the fact it was just too hard to do so, and would infuriate too many fans.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

> Re-write it and give my Chapter Master a decent death,


Just read the Kauyon supplement and I was shocked in a manner Severax was killed. Absolutely bloody stupid in order to wank the new Ghostkeel model. Was that even Shadowsun he was destroying moments earlier before he died or some kind of body-double? 

In any case, The Tau wank is real, and Im sick and tired of reading how Imperium is being represented as vastly inferior to tau in general picture and needs some planetary missile in order to push them back. Yeah I get it, this is a backwater system, and the forces engaging tau are minor compared to what Imperium wields in usual scenarios against Chaos , Orks and such, but come on. 

Tau aint fucking Necrons or Eldar.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Brobaddon said:


> Tau aint fucking Necrons or Eldar.


You're right, I highly doubt they're having intercourse with either.

Now Slaneesh or Dark Eldar....awwwwwww yea :smoke:


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

Lol. I just read that was Shadowsun actualy in ghostkeel suit. So not only she stood on same ground with Kor'sarro Khan, but eliminated a god damn Chapter Master AND then killed a Callidus. Holy fuck, there's just no excuse for that level of unjustified wank.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

_Casually_ fucking killed a chapter master. No problems at all. The whole book is a joke. Did you read Pasks near death and end to involvement in the campaign? He just trundles off on his own, completely unaware that he has no one else with him, then Longstrike on some distant ridge with two newbie pilots, just spots the random lone tank and gets the newbies to have some target practice and end him just like that. 

The whole book is a travesty apart from the Celexus, as G Dubs love them for sone reason.


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## Rush Darling (Apr 30, 2015)

It bugged me immensely that Severax got involved in the fighting at all. It's always suited me just fine that the RG chapter master didn't have a model or rules, because he was constantly in the background orchestrating things. Basically with the other character deaths in the book they obviously felt they needed to balance the scales, so Severax got to suck the big one for no other reason than it was WRITTEN.

To be honest, the most annoying part in the book (that didn't see the entirety of my chapter turn into mush brained morons) was when that Tau commander decided to jet pack INTO SPACE to sit, undetected I might add, on the command and control node of one of the imperial strike cruisers so he could hack into the data lattice and steal aallllll the tactical info.

The latter part of that is fine(ish), but in a world where teleporting and faster than light travel are common place, I still have serious issues with a jet pack achieving orbit, let alone getting to one of the cruisers undetected? seriously? If it's that easy, why the hell isn't he packing some serious ordnance to leave behind before he jets back to his home planetary system for a brew and a crumpet, because who needs fuel, right?

Somebody needs to play Kerbal Space Program.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

Angel of Blood said:


> _Casually_ fucking killed a chapter master. No problems at all. The whole book is a joke. Did you read Pasks near death and end to involvement in the campaign? He just trundles off on his own, completely unaware that he has no one else with him, then Longstrike on some distant ridge with two newbie pilots, just spots the random lone tank and gets the newbies to have some target practice and end him just like that.
> 
> The whole book is a travesty apart from the Celexus, as G Dubs love them for sone reason.


Yeah. He didn't die but the whole thing is a complete bullshit. The whole Farsight reinforcement thingy was like, out of nowhere they appeared completely bypassing the massive imperial fleet and escaping anyone's notice. How the fuck do you even miss so many battlesuits deploying on the planet? 

And Mechanicus was like, welp we found some atmosphere filtering technology, cya! Assassins were even worse, despite the fact each of them eliminated entire squads of battlesuits and fire warriors, the way the plot killed them was stupid as fuck. 

Darkstrider randomly stumbled upon the vantage point where the vindicare was and somehow managed to spring a " perfect " ambush back when the vindicare was retreating. 

Then Eversor, predictably powers through everything only to get fucked up in melee by Farsight, a fucking Tau. Since when did Tau had reflexes and bladesmanship to match-up astartes and assassins? I swear, such nonesense. 

Callidus, I don't know, I felt she did well except she could have used poison blades immediately to at least ensure Shadowsun would die, even if the cut wasn't deep. But the way Shadowsun " moved " in last second to escape her heart being pierced was cringe-worthy as hell. 

And then ofc, enter another random Pathfinder who apparently have a thing for imperial assassins and wound the assassin once again and somehow has the speed to arrive infront of Shadowsun faster than the Callidus to block the attack. 

Though I did enjoy reading how Tau squirmed and screamed before Culexus's advances. Shame we had no details on Aun'va's terrible death. 


Honestly I hope that Tau getting pushed even further in the next Tau codex all the way back to their 1st expansion worlds for just how stupid their fluff is. 

Oh what i wouldn't pay to see Imotekh rip Shadowsun a new one in terms of war strategy. Or Dante or anyone really who knows what they're doing.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

Brobaddon said:


> Honestly I hope that Tau getting pushed even further in the next Tau codex all the way back to their 1st expansion worlds for just how stupid their fluff is.
> 
> Oh what i wouldn't pay to see Imotekh rip Shadowsun a new one in terms of war strategy. Or Dante or anyone really who knows what they're doing.


I'd like to see them put in their place by, like, an ill-prepared and out-numbered group of Imperial Guard, just to balance the scales. Or something along the lines of one Termagaunt cutting through their ranks, Alien-style.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

Heh, that will never happen. Tau are the new Grey Knights. Wait till in next book they deus-ex machina Necrons or someone else to death, like they did to Imperium. 

Speaking of other menaces, have Tau ever fought Eldars? I don't recall reading anything on that match-up.


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

Brobaddon said:


> Heh, that will never happen. Tau are the new Grey Knights. Wait till in next book they deus-ex machina Necrons or someone else to death, like they did to Imperium.
> 
> Speaking of other menaces, have Tau ever fought Eldars? I don't recall reading anything on that match-up.


Generally, they appear to be fairly ambivalent if not on positive terms with each other. The Tau regard the Eldar as another race to conquer and the Eldar regard the Tau as a nascent civilisation much like their own. Rumours abound whether the Ethereals are linked to the Eldar though.

I've not read the Mont'ka or Kau'yon but I'd be interested to do so. I don't feel the negative toward the Tau winning against Raven Guard or White Scars. They're supposed to be the best at stealth and lightning strikes within the Astartes true but that doesn't make the best in those aspects of war superlative...


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

It's not so much the conquest of Agrellan and Perfectia world that troubles me, but the way Tau always had the perfect counter to Astartes and Astra militarum. 

Not to mention Shadowsun casually killed Sevarax like he was some rookie scout. Raven Guard losing hundredes of Astartes easily, and everything being pretty much one sided in favour of Tau, i mean yeah it's a Tau supplement and campaign but for fucks sake, I haven't seen so much wank ever since introduction of Grey Knights fluff. 

Add the fact all Assassins spectaculary fail save for Culexus, despite the fact they annihilated entire squads of different tau units but somehow failed to kill leaders of a race that isn't really even proficient in melee, and they themselves are even above astartes in that area, so yeah. BUT, somehow, Farsight has a pretty shiny dawnblade and can bisect squds of Ogryns and overpower an Eversor. COME ON.

Aun'va actually being killed is what suprised me greatly, but he's essentially a non-combatant, even if he was the most important figure in Tau Empire :/


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yeah, as I've mentioned before. It's the _hundreds_ of Astartes that die in the opening moments of the battle, shot down before they even make planetfall. Entire companies of Raven Guard, White Scars and other chapters, just dead before the battle has even properly began. Just look at what a single company of Templars did in Helsreach. Yes they were defending, but that's not their warfare style, yet they held it for an incredible amount of time. 

A single company is meant to be overkill, deploying multiple chapters is just absurd. Yet the Tau just kill them off like nothing. 

And yeah, Darkstrider killing the Vindicare is almost verbatim like this.

"But the Vindicare ran into Darkstriders _perfectly_ laid ambush, and was struck by the _perfectly_ placed volley of his pathfinders, when he still kept moving he then ran into Darkstriders _perfectly_ placed grenade."

Everything is perfect. Darkstrider just makes a complete mockery of a Vindicare assassin.



Digg40k said:


> I don't feel the negative toward the Tau winning against Raven Guard or White Scars. They're supposed to be the best at stealth and lightning strikes within the Astartes true but that doesn't make the best in those aspects of war superlative...


They're certainly meant to be better than normal fucking Fire Warriors.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Bear with me, I haven't read the book. But I do like to try and consider multiple angles on shit like this. 



Angel of Blood said:


> Casually fucking killed a chapter master. No problems at all.


At the end of the day, a chapter master is physically as resilient as any battle brother. If it is an acceptable death for one of them it should be for him too. 



Brobaddon said:


> And Mechanicus was like, welp we found some atmosphere filtering technology, cya!


This is actually very AdMech behaviour. Seriously, they are total dicks like that. 



Brobaddon said:


> Darkstrider randomly stumbled upon the vantage point where the vindicare was and somehow managed to spring a " perfect " ambush back when the vindicare was retreating.


Without any context it's hard to say for sure, but ultimately assassins are not trained as soldiers and there may not be a great deal of actual battlefield experience under this assassin's belt. Compared to a seasoned strategist an ambush of this nature could be feasible. 



Brobaddon said:


> Then Eversor, predictably powers through everything only to get fucked up in melee by Farsight, a fucking Tau. Since when did Tau had reflexes and bladesmanship to match-up astartes and assassins? I swear, such nonesense.


Farsight may be a tau, but he is of the fire caste. The fire caste were the most savage of tau, warriors and killers back in the day before the Ethereals and high tech plasma weaponry. I have little gripe with a fire caste tau learning bladesmanship if he so chose that path. Also he does wear a giant mechanized suit of armour and carries a sword bigger than most soldiers are.


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> They're certainly meant to be better than normal fucking Fire Warriors.


I've not read the supplement. I was referring to XV25's and the Ghostkeel perhaps. Certainly not Fire Warriors, agreed!


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Digg40k said:


> I've not read the supplement. I was referring to XV25's and the Ghostkeel perhaps. Certainly not Fire Warriors, agreed!


Nope. Raven Guard get ambushed constantly by Fire Warriors.


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> Nope. Raven Guard get ambushed constantly by Fire Warriors.


Then yes, bullshit.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

> At the end of the day, a chapter master is physically as resilient as any battle brother. If it is an acceptable death for one of them it should be for him too.


Yeah but this isn't about tanking, but the way he got fooled so easily. And then taken off-guard like a rookie. 



> This is actually very AdMech behaviour. Seriously, they are total dicks like that.


Yeah I know, doesn't make it any less annoying though. But since Mechanicum has always been an ally to imperium and not a subordinate faction, I guess they can get away with it. 



> Without any context it's hard to say for sure, but ultimately assassins are not trained as soldiers and there may not be a great deal of actual battlefield experience under this assassin's belt. Compared to a seasoned strategist an ambush of this nature could be feasible.


They're not soldiers in a sense they aren't trained to fight together as a team, but you can hardly be an assassin without knowing some battlefield rules, or when to retreat, and when to assassinate. It's all a tactical decision. 



> Farsight may be a tau, but he is of the fire caste. The fire caste were the most savage of tau, warriors and killers back in the day before the Ethereals and high tech plasma weaponry. I have little gripe with a fire caste tau learning bladesmanship if he so chose that path. Also he does wear a giant mechanized suit of armour and carries a sword bigger than most soldiers are.


I'm aware of Fire Caste and their warrior's code and what not, but a race that generally prefers ranged combat and has Kroot allies for a reason, should stay less optimal in melee. Im not saying a Tau commander in crisis suit couldn't defeat a catachan in melee, but casually slicing through Ogryn squads and matching an eversor pound for pound? 

I think we both know how unreasonable that is.


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## Tyriks (Dec 9, 2015)

Brobaddon said:


> I'm aware of Fire Caste and their warrior's code and what not, but a race that generally prefers ranged combat and has Kroot allies for a reason, should stay less optimal in melee. Im not saying a Tau commander in crisis suit couldn't defeat a catachan in melee, but casually slicing through Ogryn squads and matching an eversor pound for pound?
> 
> I think we both know how unreasonable that is.


Yeah, it seems like a good Tau swordsman is akin to a good Ork shooter. He's not really that good, he's just better than the assholes standing next to him.


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## Rush Darling (Apr 30, 2015)

Digg40k said:


> I don't feel the negative toward the Tau winning against Raven Guard or White Scars. They're supposed to be the best at stealth and lightning strikes within the Astartes true but that doesn't make the best in those aspects of war superlative...


Once you'll read it you'll see what we mean. I get where you're coming from, but it's not written as Raven Guard do something stealthy and Tau do something better, It's written as Raven Guard forget everything they've ever known and go bumbling around the battlefield expecting to win just by being astartes. The whole thing just stinks of a lack of tactical acumen / depth on the part of the author.

I might not have said it before, but the fact the Raven Guard lose and lose hard doesn't bother me (Though hundreds dead in a day is still a bit much, goodbye chapter!), it's the way they're represented that really grinds my gears.


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