# why the fugg does everyone hate Battle for the abyss? (may contain spoilers)



## TechPr1est (Nov 6, 2011)

seriously the critiscms directed to it on this and many other forums makes it look like monkey shit smeared on paper. 

now before we continue this discussion i have a confession to make

I. Have. Not. Read. It.

BUT

i would love to read it, because i love the whole Word Bearers beat the fuck out of Ultramarines and Ultramarines do honour and shit and more shit and eventualy beat the bad guys and blah blah blahbbiby blah.

BUT 

monkey shit smeared on paper makes me not go near it with a 20 foot pole. 

SO

why the fuck does everyone not like it?

You can tell me what happens i dont care about spoilers

NOW 

here are some reviews ive seen

HOWEVER

these reviews i chose because they are the only ones that don't say its shit and this one takes on a........formal approach

1.
This novel is probably the most criticised part of the Heresy series. The characters are dull (apart from Skraal), cliche and predictable, as is the plot. The Word Bearers are portrayed as bumbling idiots, more saturday morning cartoon villans rather than the calculated and dangerous Astartes they should be. The only good thing that can be said of this novel is that the combat scenes are acceptable, even though once again the Ultramarine(s) triumphs against impossible odds /rollseyes

2.
The constant chase, lack of interest I felt for the Ultramarine characters and the awful way the Word Bearers are characatures of themselves just made this book the literary equivalent of chewing gristle. I was more interested in Skraal and Mhoptep and where they sat in the bigger picture of the heresy than I was in any other character. I hoped they would become "Garro" style heroes. But the gamestyle-dull depiction of the Ultramarines and the awful lack of depth to the Word Bearers made this the toughest book to read so far. 

CONTINUING

please herectics, tell me your viewsk:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Because it looks like jade goodies defecation on wood pupl.

Aka monkey shit smeared on paper.

Inarticulate writing, immemorable characters, a superawesome ultimate weapon that noone has ever heard of plot holes that jupiter could sail through...

It is just so poor that it is frequently not considered to be the worst Heresy Book, simply because people forget to actually consider it a Heresy book, or Heresy canon. It might as well be a SM battles novel, it has absolutely no knock on effect its destruction.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

You've answered your own question with those reviews. 

It's a dull book with poorly developed and characterised characters with truly abominable depictions of the Word Bearers. The characters present are all sterotypes; the Ultramarines are rigid and honourable, sticklers for regulations, the Space Wolf drinks and challenges people to wrestling matches, the Thousand Son is enigmatic and distrusted but actually a good guy. It's also not a good sign when your support characters are more interesting than your protagonist and antagonist. 

The plot is cliche and predictable, with our heroes triumphing over insurmountable odds again and again. It's not very well written with repetitious verbage, uninspiring characters, a tendency to tell and not show (breaking a cardinal rule of good writing) and obvious plot developments. It's a good example of 'bolter porn'. Lots of bland repetitious action scenes with little of the 'good stuff' like character development, exploration of big ideas, the exposition of something new, characters you care about or engrossing plots. 

So it's just not a good book. I and many others didn't enjoy reading it, or found it lacking in literary merits. Now i know BL books are not at the top of the literature scale but Battle For The Abyss is still blown out of the water by other BL books.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

I don't hate _Battle for the Abyss_ so I wouldn't go as far as Vaz but I agree that it is a lacking book in terms of characterisation, action, pacing and plot. That said I did like Skraal and Mhotep, and the Furious Abyss was a nice idea. This is a story that would have been suited for a novella and not a full novel.


LotN


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## Corporal Punishment 69 (Jul 8, 2012)

....Because I could write a better novel randomly banging the end of my penis against my keyboard while jumping up and down to the Backstreetboys, which in itself would be more fun than this book....


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## N U R G L E (May 17, 2012)

The story just wasn't needed. It seriously is just a few hundred pages taking room on my shelf.

I will say this forever. At this time, there was very little mentioned about legions like the space wolves, word bearers, world eaters, thousand sons, and ultramarines. So if it really was anything, it was a demonstration that the traitor legions were still fighting fractions of their own legions, and a little introduction on the behavior and attitudes of legions


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## Alhom (Aug 17, 2012)

N U R G L E said:


> The story just wasn't needed. It seriously is just a few hundred pages taking room on my shelf.
> 
> I will say this forever. At this time, there was very little mentioned about legions like the space wolves, word bearers, world eaters, thousand sons, and ultramarines. So if it really was anything, it was a demonstration that the traitor legions were still fighting fractions of their own legions, and a little introduction on the behavior and attitudes of legions


Totaly agree.
I liked this book despite the fact it bring nothing to the Horus Heresy.
There is action, cool characters and a good ending.
For me the worst is Prospero Burn.
Just my opinion.


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## TechPr1est (Nov 6, 2011)

Alhom said:


> For me the worst is Prospero Burn.


 
again i have not read it 

BUT

Ive seen (some) good reviews

could you explain as to why


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Battle for the Abyss wasn't awful, that said it wasn't great. It just felt a bit like filler. It never followed the same dark and gritty that the heresy story arc had developed, rather it was a comic strip style story.

Personally I didn't like Legion or Prospero burns, because reading and whether you like a book is a subjective experience. Legion just seemed too self contained until the very end, and prospero burns ended up spending less than 20 pages on prospero


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## Bane_of_Kings (Oct 28, 2009)

TechPr1est said:


> again i have not read it
> 
> BUT
> 
> ...


Many found _Prospero Burns_ to be the worst because of the fact that it was labelled as part of the Duology of the Battle for Prospero. Most people expected it to be like _A Thousand Sons_, only from the Space Wolves perspective. But we didn't get that. What we got instead was an outside looking in on the Space Wolves Legion, and not much of the Battle for Prospero until the very end of the book, and not a lot of appearances of Leman Russ. And an overload of the terms "Wet Leopard Growl". There is also an overuse of flashbacks in _Prospero Burns_ as well, which didn't bug me when I first read it, but after a re-read, I found them to be somewhat annoying.

However, I enjoyed _Prospero Burns_ - I still do, I think it's one of the best Heresy novels currently written (Along side _A Thousand Sons, The First Heretic, Fulgrim_ and _Horus Rising_ with _Know No Fear_ being my ultimate favourite). _Prospero Burns_ was an interesting look into a familiar universe from an unfamiliar viewpoint, and in my opinion, worked really well. The best way of understanding the Space Wolves Legion would be from an outsider, and the induction of a Fenrisian into an Astartes has already been covered in William King's novels. We get to learn a whole load of new termology used by the Space Wolves (Vlka Fenryka, The Rout, Aett etc) as Abnett reinvents the Wolves completely. Those who have only read William King's Space Wolves will find completely different beasts here.

I felt that despite its advertising, _Prospero Burns_ worked extremely well alongside _A Thousand Sons_. I didn't want to see another clone of ATS written from the Space Wolves point of view, and Abnett didn't do that. Although it takes a while to get started and the Burning of Prospero doesn't play as much part in the novel as one would expect, it's still an entertaining and en-lighting read, and almost got me to start a Space Wolves Army. It gave a level of depth to the Vlka Fenryka that has never been seen before, and adds tells that the taint of Chaos touched every legion in the Heresy - it's one of the key important tales in the series so far, in my opinion. 

Just don't go into it expecting another _A Thousand Sons_. 

But I'm getting off topic. _Battle for the Abyss._ Ahem. Well, I don't have to add anything to that that hasn't been said already by the others who viewed it in a negative light. I will give it a re-read at some point this year (as part of my Horus Heresy Book Re-Read), and see how it stands up to my criticism.


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

I didn't think it was a total disaster. Its not great but I quite liked parts. For me there are a couple in the series that are worse. Give it a read and see what you think.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Even other Heresy authors seem to ignore _Battle for the Abyss_; there was not a single mention of any of the novel's plot in _Know No Fear_, which you would have expected there to be considering it was an estranged prequel.

Counter's portrayal of the Word Bearers in _Battle for the Abyss_ is simply unforgivable.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I believe there was a single mention about how they expected it to arrive IIRC.


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## Lord Mephiston (Sep 16, 2010)

People who HATE that book are those who're looking for Booker Prize winning works of literarary art in their Space Marine Bolter porn novels. Something they simply aren't gonna find.

The very same reason for people generally disliking the very fun Space Marine Battles series, except Helsreach, which was average compared to others in the series like Battle of the Fang, Wrath Of Iron, Legion Of The Damned ( which was the best in the series IMHO ).

I'd expect those people to also hate anything written by guys like Richard Marcincko, Andy Mcnabb etc. who's books are simply awesome.


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## Alhom (Aug 17, 2012)

TechPr1est said:


> again i have not read it
> 
> BUT
> 
> ...


Why? It's very simple.
You watch the cover, you read the synopsis and you say yourself :"Oh dear Emperor, this book is about the annihilation of Prospero, with Russ on main character like a Thousand Sons or a Fulgrim.

But you are wrong : your have 500 pages of blabla and you learn, sorry, I learn nothing.
Abnett is very boring, that's dont look like Abnett in fact.
I thought it was the following of Thousand Sons but it is'nt.

But it's not the subjet : for me Abyss is a really good entertainment even if it's not the best.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Vaz said:


> I believe there was a single mention about how they expected it to arrive IIRC.


There was. I think it was either Kor Phaeron or Sorot Tchure who thought to himself that they were expecting Zadkiel soon.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Even other Heresy authors seem to ignore _Battle for the Abyss_; there was not a single mention of any of the novel's plot in _Know No Fear_, which you would have expected there to be considering it was an estranged prequel.
> 
> Counter's portrayal of the Word Bearers in _Battle for the Abyss_ is simply unforgivable.


I agree that is the worst part of BftA for me. The Word Bearers just aren't cool, they aren't understandable like in TFH and they aren't malevolently evil like in KNF. They are dull.

Truthfully the idea behind BftA, the Furious Abyss and the mission to stop it, is a really good one. A superweapon that only a few can stop, the suicide mission that will not only likely kill them, but nobody will ever even realise it was them. Its in the execution that it falls short, I do like Ben Counter but BftA is not his best work, _Grey Knights_ or _Daemon World_ is.


LotN


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Vaz said:


> I believe there was a single mention about how they expected it to arrive IIRC.





Lord of the Night said:


> There was. I think it was either Kor Phaeron or Sorot Tchure who thought to himself that they were expecting Zadkiel soon.


Are you guys sure? I remember looking out for a mention as I was reading _Know No Fear_ and don't remember coming across anything. Perhaps someone with the Ebook edition could do a search for us...


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## Lord Mephiston (Sep 16, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Are you guys sure? I remember looking out for a mention as I was reading _Know No Fear_ and don't remember coming across anything. Perhaps someone with the Ebook edition could do a search for us...


I think there was a very vague reference to it. Can't remember.

And lets cut to the chase here. The main reason(s) that people hate the book is because it's 100% action. No extremely complicated story with twists & turns, no Space Marine around with deep emotional attachment to any humans around him, and no female protagonist/antagonist.

I prefer my Bolter Porn a double on the rocks, thank you very much.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Are you guys sure? I remember looking out for a mention as I was reading _Know No Fear_ and don't remember coming across anything. Perhaps someone with the Ebook edition could do a search for us...


Did a quick search and found nothing. If there is a reference for it in there, it is a vague one.


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## March of Time (Dec 4, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> There was. I think it was either Kor Phaeron or Sorot Tchure who thought to himself that they were expecting Zadkiel soon.
> 
> 
> LotN


Kor Phaeron new that Zadkiel had failed in is mission and the Furious Abyss was lost,before the Word Bearers attacked Calth.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Doelago said:


> Did a quick search and found nothing. If there is a reference for it in there, it is a vague one.


Thanks for that D. I would love for someone to find this reference, because I am fairly sure one wasn't present.



Lord Mephiston said:


> And lets cut to the chase here. The main reason(s) that people hate the book is because it's 100% action. No extremely complicated story with twists & turns, no Space Marine around with deep emotional attachment to any humans around him, and no female protagonist/antagonist.
> 
> I prefer my Bolter Porn a double on the rocks, thank you very much.


Bolter porn - as it is so aptly referred to - is boring and makes for poor entertainment. A shallow plot, predictable and dull characters, and unengaging and - quite frankly - pathetic antagonists are my main reasons for disliking it.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Lord Mephiston said:


> People who HATE that book are those who're looking for Booker Prize winning works of literarary art in their Space Marine Bolter porn novels. Something they simply aren't gonna find.


Wrong.:no: What they are looking for is a standard comparable to _Fulgrim, First Heretic, A Thousand Sons, Know No Fear_ and _Legion_. BftA is desperately poorly written, plain and simple, and I'm sure it's no coincidence that Counter hasn't had a look-in on the HH series since then.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

I disliked it because it was a no-op. If you delete the events in the book from history what changes? Nothing. The "superweapon" might as well have not existed.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I didn't like it because the characters were boring and, as far as I can remember, pretty stereotypical, which sucked. I much prefer having Legions all following similar traditions, but not all the same. 'All Space Wolves love Wolves, drink too much, take nothing except honour seriously and punch each other all the time to produce big belly laughs' is an example (not sure if I'm remembering the right book here, though). Plus, the quality of writing just isn't on standard with my favorites from Black Library, namely the Night Lords trilogy and anything by Dan Abnett.

However, I don't hate it. Your perceptions tend to alter when you've read the Dawn of War books.

Midnight


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## Schmockie (Dec 21, 2010)

I am sure there is also a mention of the furious abyss in one other HH Story. I just can't remember which one.
It is a scene that explaines why there is a tightening of security in the terran system, mentioning the WB stealing a ship from a dock from a jupiter(?) moon or so.
Thinking back trough everything I've read so far I think it could have been the last remembrancer though I'm not sure.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Schmockie said:


> I am sure there is also a mention of the furious abyss in one other HH Story. I just can't remember which one.
> It is a scene that explaines why there is a tightening of security in the terran system, mentioning the WB stealing a ship from a dock from a jupiter(?) moon or so.
> Thinking back trough everything I've read so far I think it could have been the last remembrancer though I'm not sure.


I believe it was one of the shorts that featured the Custodes, in Tales of Heresy.


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## theurge33 (Apr 4, 2012)

mal310 said:


> I didn't think it was a total disaster. Its not great but I quite liked parts. For me there are a couple in the series that are worse. Give it a read and see what you think.


I found it enjoyable as well.

Skraal was a cool character (he is referenced in the Outcast Dead) and when he found Angron's axe that was cool. Imhotep was great as well and his battle with the demon was great knowing that it was an unknown enemy to him. I highly enjoyed Cestus journey through the "7 hells" in which at the end he quotes "And I Shall KNOW NO FEAR" which can be taken as a link to Know No Fear.

I aslo remember somewhere the missing Abyss being referenced in another book.

I think its a good story that isnt necessary to the series but does provide links. Those three characters will not be remembered by the Imperium, but they pretty much saved Calth.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I remember it, but it was such a passing comment that it essentially damns the entire book in its one miserable "moment of abnett
glory".


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## Shadow Walker (Jun 10, 2010)

Schmockie said:


> I am sure there is also a mention of the furious abyss in one other HH Story. I just can't remember which one.
> It is a scene that explaines why there is a tightening of security in the terran system, mentioning the WB stealing a ship from a dock from a jupiter(?) moon or so.
> Thinking back trough everything I've read so far I think it could have been the last remembrancer though I'm not sure.


It is in Nemesis. There is also mention in Mechanicum.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Shadow Walker said:


> It is in Nemesis. There is also mention in Mechanicum.


Mechanicum serves as the beginning as their Fabricator-General turns evil and sends the request for the Furious Abyss, then in BftA we see him fly away. Nemesis then describes as they collect the assassins hon Saturn or Jupiter how a huge accident or something destroyed one moon. Outcast Dead makes a reference to Skraal what a great captain he was or something. 

I feel it was like a 40k novel, enjoyable but nothing more. The main characters, the Ultramarines, I did not like. I did like the background characters.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Zooey72 said:


> I could be wrong, but I believe at the end of "Battle for the Abyss" Guiliman didn't know squat. I can not remember the name of the loyalist World Eater that was skulking around the bottom of the ship for months, but I did like his story. He was a frenzied maniac boarding (coming close to costing them the mission), but after boarding he kept his World Eater gene seed in check. He may have been as crazy as a World Eater can be. But he was no traitor, and in the end he pretty much told Khorne to go screw himself.
> 
> I love the irony of the char. He is a frenzied nut, but his unthinking rage actualy saves him from corruption. Offered Angron's axe? Go screw yourself! He probably would have fallen with the rest of the World Eaters at I3 had he been tbere. In "Abyss" He remained loyal to the Emperor because of the tenennets of Khorne. What a mind fuck!


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I see two thing here. A bad plot and a bad look into its characters.

I've asked this before... how the fuck did "whoever allows the novels go out" let this novel go into existance. Does Ben Counter not have perfect writing? Sure. But its not like he hasn't contributed anything to the Warhammer Books world. 

Some honorable mentions are _Galaxy in Flames_, the _Soul Drinker Series_ and Daemon Hammer. 

The guy can make an awesome plot with his vague like writing style. So I hardly believe its his writing. Would this story be interesting if they had more development? NO WAY. WHO CARES? Its a story about a ship with unremembered characters that means nothing. The whole fucking plot meant nothing.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I didn't think "Battle for the Abyss" was that great, but I got to thinking - it probably would have made for a rather decent novella. A lot of the stories being put out in that format would qualify as the same sort of "filler", but people seem to enjoy them precisely because it's a "side-story" and it provides context in regards to what's happening throughout this giant conflict.

In that sense, had "Battle for the Abyss" somehow been released right before or right after "Know No Fear", and billed as a "This was Lorgar and Kor Phaeron's ace in the hole in regards to the Ultramarines navy" story, I think it would have been more positively received. At 80-100 pages, I also think it would have been more manageable and there would have been less need to stretch out (unsuccessfully, as it turns out) a number of characters who lacked depth. For instance, none of the villains in Rob Sander's Alpha Legion novella from "The Primarchs" are deeper than Zadkiel, but that's fine because we don't expect that from that format.

Anyways, I enjoyed parts of the novel... some moreso than others. I thought Mhotep was a terrific character... but even as I was enjoying reading his exploits, I kind of figured he couldn't survive. Really, there were only two things I couldn't forgive from that novel:

1. The increasingly contrived action. I lost suspension of disbelief, the sense of drama and danger, etc., as the handful of loyalist Space Marines continued to evade certain doom while on their assault on a giant battleship supposedly full of Word Bearers.

2. The moment when the giant book on the prow of the Furious Abyss opens up... to reveal a giant gun. Come on! This killed me on two different levels... First, it's quite possibly the cheesiest, hammiest thing I've seen in a universe that's defined by its over-the-top, over-sized scale of things. Second of all, the art major in me can't ignore the fact that, unless the book was mounted off-center on the prow (in which case it would look stupid by default), once the cover opened to reveal the gun the Furious Abyss would now have a giant book-cover trailing on one side of its ship. The visual aesthetics of this torture me. :biggrin:


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## TechPr1est (Nov 6, 2011)

well you guys have officially convinced me to _NOT_ buy Battle for the Abyss

thanks guys 

:biggrin:


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## Agarwaen (Oct 8, 2011)

I really liked this book... lol I like the Thousand Son, (Mhotep?) I thought there were some cool plots in there, especially the mental World Eater running round the bowels of the ship. Dont see why its getting so much hate on here to be honest. I couldnt put it down when I got it, in fact, I might make it my next book to read!


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

I quite liked Skraal and Mhotep too, but the cheesy Bond-villain Word Bearers, the uninteresting, undifferentiated Ultramarines, and the drunken, carousing caricature of a Space Wolf all fell flat, to me.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Mossy Toes said:


> I quite liked Skraal and Mhotep too, but the cheesy Bond-villain Word Bearers, the uninteresting, undifferentiated Ultramarines, and the drunken, carousing caricature of a Space Wolf all fell flat, to me.


This. This to the letter.

I love reading about the Word Bearers, but the guys in this book seemed like the legions remedial class...... :russianroulette:


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## Yllib Enaz (Jul 15, 2010)

TechPr1est said:


> makes it look like monkey shit smeared on paper.


Sadly, its not that good...


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> I see two thing here. A bad plot and a bad look into its characters.
> 
> I've asked this before... how the fuck did "whoever allows the novels go out" let this novel go into existance. Does Ben Counter not have perfect writing? Sure. But its not like he hasn't contributed anything to the Warhammer Books world.
> 
> ...


If I was going to post a critique it would sound a lot like this...


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