# New Info on "Executioners"



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

A little quote from Aaron's facebook page. I think it makes for some new good fluff. I can't wait to see it unfold. 

"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?"


Its funny because there's a lot of people who hate the wolves and think its kind of bullshit that they should be that "anti-astartes" legion. However, considering that Dan Abnett said that the reason why this legion was created to be so vicious was because it was made to destroy another legion. We also see that Horus has a unique concern about facing the Wolves. Hence he orders their simple send and retrieve mission to basically mauling the hell out of the legion on Prospero.

I think this new information brings up a lot of questions.

If a legion indeed did send the Wolves running, what unique qualities did this legion have. Was it a certain mutation? We know Leman Russ as a good strategist, but could there have been a legion that really made his legion "run?" Again it could be propaganda or an exaggeration. 

If the Emperor really created/"allowed" for the creation and existence of this legion (Wolves of Fenris) for the purpose of exterminating other legions, and this legion did in fact lose to one of those legions. How did the Emperor miscalculate like that? Something must have powered up such a legion. Whether it was miscalculation of the qualities of that legion or perhaps something more sinister. 

Who and how does this person know this? If this is true.

Any Ideas?


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Argh, I'd just found this on Aaron's Facebook page and I was so excited thinking I could start a new convo but got here to find out I've been ninja'd! :shok:

Joking aside, nice one CK 

I wonder (and think) this is another hint towards the lost Legions.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

From _Fear to Tread_ I'd guess some sort of massive warp mutation that gave them incredible powers--both physical and psychic.

It would explain why the Big E and so many other primarchs were so watchful of Magnus. 

Though on second thought, it probably wasn't prowess in combat that would send the Wolves running. As _Prospero Burns_ states, when two resolute forces meet in combat, the annihilation of at least one force is guaranteed. The Wolves would never have ran if it was a fight. That's what they were bred to do. Something more insidious must have forced their hand. Something they couldn't fight.

Illusions or misinformation. Something to break their resolve without giving them an opponent they could claw, bite, or beat into submission.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

I think this is just another amusing thread he dropped to get us at each others' throats. Hell, lets wait until/to see if it gets into Betrayer before we even go judging it as remotely canon. ADB could just be superbly metatrolling us--for which I applaud him.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

considering betrayer is about the wordbearers and the world eaters, imo the worldeaters beat the crap out of the wolves, furthermore, since after the war on Prospero, the Alpha legion attacks the wolves it might be an Alpha legionnaire/Primarch (who would either be lying or have access to that kind of knowledge) to either invigorate his own troops or demoralize the wolves.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> However, considering that Dan Abnett said that the reason why this legion was created to be so vicious was because it was made to destroy another legion.


Sort of. Firstly, remember that was a trailer, for marketing.

Secondly, the Wolves really aren't any better than any other Legion, and aren't magically more suited to the role of killing other Space Marines. They're not more savage than the World Eaters, no matter what they claim about themselves. We know that already, and we've known for 25 years. They're not more terrifying than the Night Lords. We've known that for 25 years, too. 

If they really are "executioners", it may well be self-appointed, and even if it's not, they're the "executioners" because they're absolutely loyal, not because they're better at fighting other Marines than any other Legion is.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

clown, can you explain why the space wolf shamans seem to be exempt from the edict of Nikea? going so far as to actually use their own "shamans" to monitor other legions and if necessary chastise them for their use of psychic powers, is this simple hypocrisy on their part? or is it as they believe (that their power comes from Fenris and is independent of the warp?


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## Erik_Morkai (May 2, 2011)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Sort of. Firstly, remember that was a trailer, for marketing.
> 
> Secondly, the Wolves really aren't any better than any other Legion, and aren't magically more suited to the role of killing other Space Marines. They're not more savage than the World Eaters, no matter what they claim about themselves. We know that already, and we've known for 25 years. They're not more terrifying than the Night Lords. We've known that for 25 years, too.
> 
> If they really are "executioners", it may well be self-appointed, and even if it's not, they're the "executioners" because they're absolutely loyal, not because they're better at fighting other Marines than any other Legion is.


Exactly. I always pictuered the Wolves as Executioners for the following reason.

Scenario 1:
Emperor: "Fulgrim, the Blood Angels have royally pissed me off and are bordering on Heresy. I need you to bust your brother's face and bring him back kicking and screaming if necessary."

Fulgrim: "But daaaad, maybe if I could just talk to him. I am sure it's just a misunderstanding or exageration. Do I really need to wage war against my brother?"

Scenario 2:
Emperor: "Russ, the Blood Angels have royally pissed me off and are bordering on Heresy. I need you to bust your brother's face and bring him back kicking and screaming if necessary."

Russ: "Yes sir."

THAT is the reason. It does not matter wether Leman Russ agrees with the decision, it's not his to make. His duty is to obey without whining or questionning, without personal feelings interfering with his mission statement.

We all saw the brotherhood between Primarchs during the Horus Heresy and how hesitant they were to believe their brothers had turned (see Rogal Dorn). No other Primarchs would be willing to march against any of his brothers willingly and without question, none save Leman Russ.

That is how I see it.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Sort of. Firstly, remember that was a trailer, for marketing.
> 
> Secondly, the Wolves really aren't any better than any other Legion, and aren't magically more suited to the role of killing other Space Marines. They're not more savage than the World Eaters, no matter what they claim about themselves. We know that already, and we've known for 25 years. They're not more terrifying than the Night Lords. We've known that for 25 years, too.
> 
> If they really are "executioners", it may well be self-appointed, and even if it's not, they're the "executioners" because they're absolutely loyal, not because they're better at fighting other Marines than any other Legion is.


This is true. I still regard that quote as important because of it's source. But because it is unique a source, I could see you guys developing that.

The reason why I think you could regard the Wolves as being more "vicious" or "Savage" is because of their unique geneseed and what appears to be a flaw or mutation. At least my orthodox reason to why I argued they were more vicious and savage than the Blood Angels or World Eaters (Pre-Heresy) is because their flaw/mutation is so strong that it surfaces unlike any other legion we know. Its just a clue, but it could explain it.

That "raw" mutated strength we can see in its exagerated form when they lose control and mutate fully. The extra strength could contribute to butchering astartes armor and flesh easier. The same can be explained to how dangerous a Daemon (lesser form) can be, even to an astartes when up close.

I think the same case can be said if there was indeed a legion that bested the Wolves.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I'm a bit behind on my fluff, but wasn't it hinted that the Word Bearers helped the Wolves with at least one cleanup? Could it be that the Wolves were thrown back once and that was why they needed the Word Bearers to provide assistance?


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

I can't remember where it is but I think there was a book where a space wolf rampaged through a tyranid infested ship cracking the skulls of gene stealers with his bare hands.

We know that terminators can get tore apart by genestealers so I think there's some truth to the executioner stats


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> I can't remember where it is but I think there was a book where a space wolf rampaged through a tyranid infested ship cracking the skulls of gene stealers with his bare hands.
> 
> We know that terminators can get tore apart by genestealers so I think there's some truth to the executioner stats


Plot armor, and I believe that was the last Ragnar book.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> That "raw" mutated strength we can see in its exagerated form when they lose control and mutate fully. The extra strength could contribute to butchering astartes armor and flesh easier


1) We don't know if a Wulfen's "raw strength" is greater than that of a frothing WE berserker or that of a Death Company warrior completely lost to the Red Thirst/Black Rage. Remember that in The Outcast Dead, a WE punches through Custodes chest armour

You're assuming Wulfen are stronger probably because of your bias 

2) SW lose control when they become howling Wulfen. Sure, they gain a boost to their physical stats...but at the cost of control and discipline


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> 1)
> You're assuming Wulfen are stronger probably because of your bias


Not at all actually (I'm an Iron Warriors fan). I wouldn't say I am their biggest fan, but there is evidence that they could be (stronger). The Wolves of Fenris have justly or unjustly claimed that title of "anti-astartes." Remember I said their flaw/mutation is on their surface. The "canine look" is what I'm referring to. This may or may not explain why their mutation is more powerful than legions that have their own mutation. 

Thats why I have reasoned that if the wolves really are a stronger/faster astartes one on one against other astartes. It could be that their mutation is so uncontrollable that even in a "controlled" state parts of the mutation surface. This could also contribute to combat efficiency. 

Another example we have about the *unique* unstable nature of the Wolves of Fenris, is that there are no know existing chapters of the Wolves of Fenris. The one chapter they created went haywire. Every other mutated legion has had their fair share.

Hence where there was a strength there is now a weakness.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> If they really are "executioners", it may well be self-appointed, and even if it's not, they're the "executioners" because they're absolutely loyal, not because they're better at fighting other Marines than any other Legion is.


It's something along these lines I think. 

The fleshmaking Wolf Priest fellow in Battle of the Fang also explains pretty well about their gene flaw and The Wolf Brothers. Where as they were unquestioningly loyal to the Emperor and would follow his orders to the letter, he goes on to say 'We were bred to perfom tasks that no other legion could, to fight with such extravagance that even our brother warriors would shrink from treachery in the knowledge of what we, the Rout, would do to them. That power was exercised more than once.". He firmly believes that they were the executioners (Some legions were builders, defenders, thinkers, masters of stealth, etc, but they were built to fight.), but he explains that it can't be the case anymore because of their gene flaw, where as the chapters from the UM are in ludicrous numbers still, the Wolves are a little band now, as they can't do what they were meant to. 

They can't keep everyone else in check anymore because they haven't got the numbers. - although this is a SW point of view, so it's just their perspective (like the wyrd :wink.

What made them so tough I think was what Magnus (and ADB a few posts up) said "I no longer think of them as animals Ahmuz, though I once did. I now think of them as the purest of us all. Incorruptable. Single-minded. The perfection of my father's vision.". The big E probably would have liked every legion to be like them, loads of frothing nutters who follow his word meticulously.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

@ Grins1878

This is something that maybe why they are executioners. But... if this really is the case. And you are the Emperor, is that what you do? Do you send the loyalist of your legions to destroy another legion? Or the most powerful? To assure that the killing is done. 

After all, isn't what the extermination of the legions is about? The complete extermination? No survivors left? A sure victory (at least reassuring)? Also, to put it out there, the Wolves are considered a very small legion (not the smallest). But pretty fricken small. So.... what would this loyal part of them do in this situation but assure that the wolves would fight to the last man? That hardly targets the situation of exterminating them.

In all respects, couldn't they just use the Ultramarines for this case? They are loyal and the embodyment of the Emperor. They probably could over power any other legion. So why not them. It sure seemed like they were about to do that to the Word Bearers. Or even the zealousness of the Word Bearers and their numbers?

Why not them? If we are talking about loyal dogs that would follow to the word, why not Dorn? He has a better record than the Wolves and he isn't afraid to confront and lock up his own brother.

If one views that the wolves are the "executioners" soley because of their loyalty and the fact they are a lap dog, then does it really make sense for the emperor to send them?

The Wolves are a small legion relatively, they aren't famous for their tactical genius or record. 

We take a look at when the Word Bearers kneeled infront of the Emperor on Monarchia. The Ultramarines were ordered to put that world to ashes. Besides for using Guilliman and the Ultramarines as the ultimate scorn and legion to embody, what other legion could possibly force the Word Bearers to kneel by force? 

The Emperor isn't afraid to use the Ultramarines for something like this. So why the Wolves? Clearly when he sent them (against the lost legions), it wasn't just a display of power. 

Also another thing, if the did not send the Wolves because he was assured of a victory, isn't he basically just sending them to be exterminated? There must be something more to the wolves than just complete loyalty. That alone cannot assure victory.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> @ Grins1878
> 
> Everything you said


:goodpost:

Other than the Word Bearers (I don't think they're of sound enough mind to do the job) bit, I think you're spot on. The Ultramarines would be ideal with their numbers and Guilliman's tactical savvy they could overpower every other legion with relative ease I would have thought.

Maybe it's their ferocity and shock and awe factor? Where as the UM would be methodical and would do the job, I think maybe the Wolves would have the added 'holy balls!!!' factor (nearly said X-Factor... would have had to kick my own ass), the savageness and ferocity they have is different from other savage legions because they have control of it (aside from the occasional hairy incident...).

I don't know why them though, as you say, the UM would do the job with weight of numbers and tactical knowledge.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Or maybe the Wolves were not always as low on numbers but suffered heavy casualties exterminating another legion and that is why they are smaller. And they were chosen above the Ultramarines or any other legion at a later stage precisely because they are the most experienced at fighting other space marines. 

When they went up against the Thousand Sons they still outnumbered them so numbers weren't an issue. And that is still excluding the Custodes and Silent Sisterhood forces sent to aid them. Who's to say that if it had been a larger legion that had needed to be sanctioned that the Emperor wouldn't have sent another loyal legion to fight as well.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> *snip*


1) For whatever reason, you are making assumptions about Wulfen strength. Yes, Wulfen are physically stronger than regular Astartes, but so are Death Company warriors and WE berserkers. We don't know whether Wulfen are the strongest.

2) Even if they are the strongest physically, that doesn't necessarily mean they're the best anti-Astartes. I think you're overrating brute strength, which is only one factor among many with regard to combat effectiveness. The cost of that brute strength is becoming a slavering werewolf, a state only advantageous in limited situations (i.e. situations in which you don't have to fight tactically)


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> 1) For whatever reason, you are making assumptions about Wulfen strength. Yes, Wulfen are physically stronger than regular Astartes, but so are Death Company warriors and WE berserkers. We don't know whether Wulfen are the strongest.
> 
> 2) Even if they are the strongest physically, that doesn't necessarily mean they're the best anti-Astartes. I think you're overrating brute strength, which is only one factor among many with regard to combat effectiveness. The cost of that brute strength is becoming a slavering werewolf, a state only advantageous in limited situations (i.e. situations in which you don't have to fight tactically)


This is born out in the SW omnibus about the initiation of Ragnar Blackmane, who defeats what I remember being called 'one of the largest Wulfen in memory', while out on his final test before full initiation, without specialist weapons or armor. Regardless of Ragnar's legendary prowess and fighting skills, if he can do it bare handed, I think any Astares in battle plate and armed would be able to defeat a Wulfen without too much ado.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> 1) For whatever reason...


The _reason_ is pure and simple. The wolves have mutated/flawed geneseed. This flaw/mutation is so strong that the Wolves are the only legion in which their mutated traits are openly displayed (at this time pre-heresy). They have naturally sharp teeth for crying out loud! I believe this "whatever reason" is too blunt as you make it seem. It is why it can be reasoned that they are unlike any other legion. Like the Blood Angels or the World Eaters. The World Eaters progressively got to their state, both by their genes (and probably manipulation) along with the "butcher's nails." It was not all natural. The Blood Angels didn't fully reach their potential state until after the events between Sanguinus and the Greater Daemon. Both examples, both legions were not at the same level as the wolves before the extermination of the "lost legions."



MontytheMighty said:


> 2) Even if they are the strongest physically, that doesn't necessarily mean they're the best anti-Astartes. I think you're overrating brute strength, which is only one factor among many with regard to combat effectiveness. The cost of that brute strength is becoming a slavering werewolf, a state only advantageous in limited situations (i.e. situations in which you don't have to fight tactically)


But the wolves were very tactical. Horus even calls them a "great military threat." From any book I've read, whether or not it was perspective of the wolves (example: _A Thousand Sons, Prospero Burns_) they are seen as a very fast and mobile force. They aren't just purely brutal. 

I wouldn't whine and say they are the best legion and the rest suck. But I will say their tactics, both brute strength, and the ability to get close with the enemy very fast gives them an advantage over other legions against astartes. 

Again, how could you explain the Emperor sending the Wolves to either be a scare force or exterminating force if it was not for these characteristics. It isn't enough to say they are utterly loyal, because there only so much loyalty can do in combat or to scare someone into submission. They don't have the numbers and if they aren't "anti-astartes" why the heck would you do that? Its just not the legion you would pick out of the bag for that mission.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Chompy Bits said:


> Or maybe the Wolves were not always as low on numbers but suffered heavy casualties exterminating another legion and that is why they are smaller. And they were chosen above the Ultramarines or any other legion at a later stage precisely because they are the most experienced at fighting other space marines.


Kind of difficult to make astartes when your population is on Fenris. 



Chompy Bits said:


> When they went up against the Thousand Sons they still outnumbered them so numbers weren't an issue. And that is still excluding the Custodes and Silent Sisterhood forces sent to aid them. Who's to say that if it had been a larger legion that had needed to be sanctioned that the Emperor wouldn't have sent another loyal legion to fight as well.


We know why the Thousand Sons were such an exceptionally small legion though. It was more than the fact they lived on a Death World.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Kind of difficult to make astartes when your population is on Fenris.


Regardless, we still don't know what their numbers were before they had been called to sanction the other legions. And it does stand to reason that they would have suffered a large number of casualties fighting another entire legion. They certainly did fighting the Thousand Sons. Plus, we also don't know the size of the other legions they supposedly sanctioned.




ckcrawford said:


> We know why the Thousand Sons were such an exceptionally small legion though. It was more than the fact they lived on a Death World.


I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make here. Mine was that it wasn't needed to call upon any of the other legions with greater numbers than the Wolves to fight the Sons, as the Wolves alone already outnumbered them.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

There seems to be some thoughts here that Horus _intended_ for the Wolves to wipe out the Thousand Sons. What if that wasn't even the case? Both the TS and SW were loyal to Terra, Horus knew they wouldn't be swayed so he created an opportunity where two loyal legions would effectively wipe each other out. I suspect he didn't even care who won in the end. One loyal legion would be gone, what was left of the victor would cause his plans minimal harm. Win win. 

I personally think the wolves were very freaking lucky the TS warp pets did turn on them, turning their own powers against them. The wolves could have well sustained critical loses otherwise. I mean hell, what was going to stop that Pyrae powered titan? Feral wolf howls and some pretty wolf teeth necklace jiggling? I think not.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Brother Subtle said:


> There seems to be some thoughts here that Horus _intended_ for the Wolves to wipe out the Thousand Sons. What if that wasn't even the case? Both the TS and SW were loyal to Terra, Horus knew they wouldn't be swayed so he created an opportunity where two loyal legions would effectively wipe each other out. I suspect he didn't even care who won in the end. One loyal legion would be gone, what was left of the victor would cause his plans minimal harm. Win win.


That was certainly the case, they say as much in Prospero Burns. And this wasn't even down to Horus or any of his scheming or plans. Chaos had been setting the two legions against each other for a very long time, long before the Heresy began. It was fully their intention for the two Legions, both considered to be two of the largest threats to Horus to wipe each other out and remove them from play. Magnus however, screwed it up, but as a result the Wolves were still very much understrength and the remaining Sons and Magnus joined Horus.





Brother Subtle said:


> I mean hell, what was going to stop that Pyrae powered titan?


Russ.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Russ.


Not a chance. Maybe, just maybe if it was a Warhound. But this was a Warlord Titan. It would have simply stepped on Russ, and half the city block he occupied and moved on.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

In the Word Bearer's series, a strike team of WBs disabled an Emperor titan.

I'd imagine something similar could have happened.

I also suspected that the SWs didn't bring their own titans because it was known that the TS didn't have titans. After all, were there any others at the battle that we know of?

The SWs and Custodians probably didn't bank on the fact the TS could use that relic as an actual weapon.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Never underestimate the absurdity of the feats the Primarchs can accomplish.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Never underestimate the absurdity of the feats the Primarchs can accomplish.


That's true. I guess Russ would simply drop a massive primarch wolf power fart and knock the Titan over.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

There was a thread on this on the same day in the black library part 

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=117166


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> After all, isn't what the extermination of the legions is about? The complete extermination? No survivors left? A sure victory (at least reassuring)?


If this is the Emperor's goal, then sending the Wolves was a mistake. They clearly failed to exterminate the Thousand Sons and even with Magnus' intentional handicap of his Legion and the Wolves calling in allies designed to counter the Sons strength the Wolves victory was far from assured. If Magnus and the Sons put up a full-scale fight from the beginning the outcome of Prospero is far from certain.



> In all respects, couldn't they just use the Ultramarines for this case? They are loyal and the embodyment of the Emperor.


Ultimately I'm not sure that the Ultramarines could've been counted on in this situation. Guilliman has shown himself to be willing to do things that are not strictly loyal to the Emperor. Further the Wolves aren't just loyal and obedient, they are unquestioning. I do not believe Guilliman could be considered unquestioning. If he was sent to destroy a Legion he would want to know why, and ultimately I'm not sure he would follow through with there complete destruction. 



> It sure seemed like they were about to do that to the Word Bearers.


The overwhelming numbers of the Ultramarines were enough to cause Lorgar to hesitate in his retaliation, this hesitation was enough for the Emperor to reveal himself. I do no believe that the Ultramarines had any intention of exterminating the Word Bearers, and had that order been given I do not believe they would've followed through. Conversely I am not certain that the Wolves would've been force enough to cause Lorgar to hesitate, or that the Wolves would've been content to serve as watchers (I certainly cannot imagine the Space Wolves standing by while their Primarch is threatened and attacked by another) and thus rather than the Emperor being able to speak to Lorgar and change his mind he would've been forced to exterminate them.



> If we are talking about loyal dogs that would follow to the word, why not Dorn? He has a better record than the Wolves and he isn't afraid to confront and lock up his own brother.


Because Dorn already has a shtick. Seriously though, Dorn's actions against Night Haunter (and note, just against his brother never against his Legion) are as much motivated by fear of and for his brother as they are of anything else, he is clearly not following the Emperor's orders. Trying to deal with a clearly mentally ill relative is not even remotely comparable to being willing to fight and kill another relative. 



ckcrawford said:


> The _reason_ is pure and simple. The wolves have mutated/flawed geneseed. This flaw/mutation is so strong that the Wolves are the only legion in which their mutated traits are openly displayed (at this time pre-heresy). They have naturally sharp teeth for crying out loud!


And you believe this mutation makes them stronger than any other Legion? 
1) There is simply no evidence that Space Wolves are physically more powerful (on average) than every other Legion. 
2) Were it the case that adding the canis helix makes a legionnaire stronger, and thus a better marine, why would the Emperor limit it to one Legion? What does he gain from handicapping every other Legion simply to ensure he has a single executioner? And that's ignoring the fact that Russ could've just as easily been corrupted by Chaos as not.
3) The strength of a mutation does not in any way indicate that it is a mutation towards strength. Having sharp canine teeth is one simple mutation and, in the specific case of the Space Wolves, also indicates that they have inherited a number of lupine traits (physically they appear to be simply a heightened sense of smell). Superior strength is not one of those traits. When people discuss the most significant traits of wolves they never mention their strength, because it's nothing special. If they were the Space Bears, or Space Ants or something, there might be reason to suggest that super-strength was something they inherited but as is, there really isn't.



> But the wolves were very tactical. Horus even calls them a "great military threat." From any book I've read, whether or not it was perspective of the wolves (example: _A Thousand Sons, Prospero Burns_) they are seen as a very fast and mobile force. They aren't just purely brutal.


The Wolves are consistently viewed as being not very tactical (the Wolves themselves apparently culture this view). Being a great military threat does not require one to be tactical, simply to be a threat. Given the evenness of the forces involved in the Siege of Terra it is quite safe to say that the Wolves being involved in that fight (especially at full strength) would've turned the battle against Horus swiftly. That is why Horus views them as a threat, because they could scupper his plans not because he thinks the Wolves are inherently more dangerous than other marines (so basically the same reason he tries to destroy the Ultramarines, Blood Angels and Thousand Sons).



> It isn't enough to say they are utterly loyal,


Agreed. It isn't enough to say that they are utterly loyal, you have to include the fact that they're brutal. But the loyalty is the more important (and/or rare) of those two traits. We have clear, clear evidence of other Legions being more brutal, fearsome and final than the Wolves but those Legions are not suitable to be 'executioners' in this instance because their loyalty cannot be counted on. The Wolves are sent because they are the most brutal force that is loyal, not because they are the best.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Hello poppets. Old threads coming back, its good to know the heresy forums are coming alive again. I'll right in blue in your quotes. I'm a bit lazy to do it the correct way. Please forgive me.



MEQinc said:


> If this is the Emperor's goal, then sending the Wolves was a mistake. They clearly failed to exterminate the Thousand Sons and even with Magnus' intentional handicap of his Legion and the Wolves calling in allies designed to counter the Sons strength the Wolves victory was far from assured. If Magnus and the Sons put up a full-scale fight from the beginning the outcome of Prospero is far from certain.
> 
> To be fair though. I don't think Russ thought Magnus was going to escape into another planet. I mean, Magnus was reduced so much in number. He was surrounded from orbit. Before Magnus leaves with pretty much a chapter of Thousand Sons. It seems like an assured victory to me. The only close battle was Magnus vs. Russ. But I mean, that goes without saying for any primarch battles. The powers that the Thousands Sons were using were eventually being used against them.
> 
> ...


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> To be fair though. I don't think Russ thought Magnus was going to escape into another planet.




Well no, fair point on that. 




> I mean, Magnus was reduced so much in number. He was surrounded from orbit. Before Magnus leaves with pretty much a chapter of Thousand Sons. It seems like an assured victory to me.


Right but this was only after Magnus had severely handicapped his entire army from the start of the battle. He sent his fleet away, allowing Russ to secure orbit without firing a single shot. He crippled every orbital defense mechanism his Legion had access to, allowing Russ to land his troops without taking damage. He removed himself, the single greatest threat his army possessed as well as its strategic and tactical head, from almost the entire fight. And yet despite that, despite the fact that Russ had brought allies specifically designed to counter the strengths of the Sons, despite the Wolves initially outnumbering the Sons, despite the Sons staunchest ally turning against them in the middle of the fight; the Wolves suffered horrendous casualties in the fight. They were reduced to only slightly more than chapter strength. Had Magnus not intentionally crippled his force I am not certain that the Wolves would've won. 




> The Ultramarines were ready to start a civil war against the any legion that opposed the conversion of chapters. Guilliman seems to me to either be a man who is willing to do anything to make his own agenda or willing to do anything for the better of the Imperium. So destroying so called "traitors," for the better of the imperium doesn't seem that way off.


I agree. That's why I said that Guilliman does not seem loyal to the Emperor. He is very loyal to the Imperium, but in Guilliman's eyes the two are not the same. He is content to abandon the Emperor and Terra to Horus to build his Second Imperium. He is swift to reverse many of the Emperor's policies after he takes control (Chapters, Librarians, etc). I am not certain that Guilliman would completely destroy a brother and his Legion simply because the Emperor declared them traitors. I would expect Guilliman to offer his brother an out, and I would equally expect him to welcome any 'traitors' into his Legion if they requested it.




> So a strike against his brother does not disgrace his legion?Dorn pun against Perturabo for example, did not disgrace and piss off his entire legion? You just need to read any book with Iron Warriors and you'll read a pissed off remark about the Imperial Fists.


I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. Dorn is undoubtedly disliked by many of the traitors, the Iron Warriors and Perturabo in particular. Many view him as a lapdog and receiving more than his fair share of praise. Where in that description is a mention of his willingness to attack or destroy his brothers?



> Do you think Dorn doesn't know what kind of astartes compromise each legion? He knew the Night Lords were full of thieves, murderers, and rapists. You can bet your bottom dollar he punned the Night Lords when he committed his actions against Night Haunter.


1) punned? I assume that's a typo or something.
2) Despite his assumed reservations about the Night Lords he had no qualms sending them, as part of his strike force, to Istvaan. If Dorn really had a problem with the Night Lords he would not have done this, risking as it did their siding with Horus. The exact nature of the recruits going into the Night Lords doesn't seem to be known to any beyond the Legion itself and doesn't seem to bother anyone but Night Haunter, as he is the only one to act on it. Other Astartes dislike the Night Lords, and view them as savages and murderers, but none make any mention of their criminal recruits. And I'm not sure it would bother them anyway, the Legions recruit the toughest and fiercest warriors of their home cultures, I'd imagine few of these people would be considered model citizens.
 


> He was bring Curze to Terra to be sentenced by the Emperor. I think we have an educated guess as to what that would dictate.


As an educated guess I'd say the Emperor would tell Dorn to leave him alone and let Night Haunter go. Dorn saw nothing in Curze the Emperor didn't, yet the Emperor never sanctioned him. Night Haunter and the Night Lords were a weapon the Emperor needed and had every intention of using. That Dorn disagreed with their methodology is irrelevant.



> There isn't any evidence to show he wouldn't kill or destroy legions that contradicted Imperial Ideology.


Sure there is, the fact that he didn't. As you point out Dorn felt that Night Haunter and the Night Lords contradicted his view of Imperial Ideology. Yet he never struck out against them. He never made any move to engage, let alone kill, the Legion and willingly sent them to do his bidding.
 



> Conclusive evidence? Okay. But really? We've seen the extreme version of this mutation. That alone cannot be denied. Then why not the minor and smaller versions of the mutations?


Because for one thing, changing into a Wulfen doesn't provide that much of a strength boost. And for the other, bigger, reason, because a Wulfen is so far removed from a Space Wolf in almost every aspect. The Wulfen lose all self control and mutate into hairy beast-men. On a daily basis the Space Wolves are not uncontrollable hairy beast-men, so obviously quite a bit changes when they mutate. Having seen nothing to suggest that the increased strength is not one of these things is evidence enough for me to think it is.

By the same logic of this argument we could state that Blood Angels should be the most fearsome and brutal because the Death Company stats are more impressive than those of the Wulfen. 

_



Well I think you know the answer to this question. The executioner. That was the reason for the handicap.

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_But what sense does that make. Why make all your Legions weaker? If the Emperor expected to be betrayed than why would he make use of those Legions most likely to betray him? And why make the Wolves a regular Legion? It runs the risk of them being poorly placed or loosing man-power. He could've just kept them as a Custodes like force if his sole intention was to have them as executioners. And if he intended to use them as a front-line force, why would he intentionally cripple his other front-line forces?
_



You also mention easily being corrupted. I really think you should think about the legions that really succeeded in the Imperium and realize that besides for Horus and the Luna Wolves the most appreciated legions felt they were part of the Imperium more. The executioners would have had no chance of rebelling against the Imperium unless Chaos had really had their eyes set on them like they did with Horus. But as suppose to Horus who was a lot more likable, I don't think the Executioners are a very likable legion to side with, especially if you're a traitor.

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_Aside from the Dark Angels, every single Legion the Gods turned their eyes to turned to side with them. Tzeentch decided early (probably before the Space Wolves were even created) that he was going to use them to turn the Thousand Sons to him. Had Tzeentch or the other Gods made other plans for the Wolves than they would've fallen to them. Executioners who are never used as such have as much reason to feel apart from the Imperium as any of the others, and even more reason to feel apart from their brothers. 

And as for likability, I wasn't suggesting that it would be the Russ Heresy, I was saying that they would've taken the place of another Legion.
_ 



Remember, it isn't simply corruption. It was the Chaos Gods gaze. Corruption is simply the tenticles, the Gods chose which ones would have been easier to corrupt.

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_Did they choose who would be easiest to corrupt or did they make those they wanted easier to corrupt? If Curze is placed on another planet he likely doesn't become a schizophrenic sadist, if Russ is placed there in his stead, he very well might.
*



[As incredible as it may sound, Space Wolves have uncanny (unexplainable) abilities above and beyond even the superhuman Space Marines of the other chapters.] pg.12 Space Wolves Codex

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*1) That paragraph goes on to discuss what is meant by 'uncanny abilities' and it says "incredibly acute senses" and mentions the teeth. Both of these abilities were ones I credited the Space Wolves with.
2) In no way are these abilities 'unexplainable'. The paragraph itself explains them as the result of "Russ' heritage" and the Canis Helix.
3) I recall Codex: Space Marines saying that all Chapters wish they could be Ultramarines and follow Guilliman, I recall Codex: Chaos Space Marines describing its soldiers as being superior to regular Space Marines. Point is, Codexii are prone to hyperbole. 




> Yes it does.


No it doesn't. A large enough foe can be a military threat, even if it has no tactical ability what-so-ever. Hell, even an explicitly non-militarized entity can be a military threat, that's what motivated the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbour. 



> You have made an assumption based on appearence.


I didn't make an assumption, I reported the assumptions of others. The Wolves are viewed as not being very tactical. This is how they are consistently thought of throughout the HH novels. 




> Loyalty itself cannot submit, put to heals or destroy other legions.


Agreed. Indeed that entire paragraph was agreeing with this point. Loyalty cannot destroy other Legions but brutality can't either unless it is loyal.


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