# Tyranid Codex - tyranids will win.



## Farske (Mar 1, 2009)

Hiya

I was reading the Tyranid codex and I found this sentence:
"...even before an invasion begins a planet defenders must win a battle with despair, for each hive fleet has a smothering psychic signature known as the shadow in the warp, making it virtually impossible for astropathic messengers to send a request for help. Thus does the hive fleet isolate and destroy every world in its path. *Unrelenting and unstoppable, the tyranid race represents the eventual doom of both mankind and the alien races that inhabit the known galaxy."*
Latest Tyranid Codex, The great devourer, page 4.

To me this removed the clever uncertainty of what's to come. To me it states... whats the point, tyranids are going to win, gg, ez ££.

What do you guys make of this?
F


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Take into account that every race's codex pretty much says "We are awesome, we are going to crush the Imperium and conquer/eat/burn/reclaim the galaxy"


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

To bad that has no effect on the Necrons.


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## Spot The Grot (Jul 15, 2008)

I take the side of tyranids. All races have the crap about how they are better but tyranids make a lot more sense.

The waves that have been so far are merely scouting parties and are tiny compared to the actauly nid army. The hive mind is simply harvesting info on the galaxy so it can attack much more efficiently.

Imperium will obvoiusly die as they will either way with evry race.
Ork genes simply make nids stronger.
Chaos same as imperium except with daemons its very complicated , but warp and nids do something together this may help them kill daemons in the end.
Tau same as imperium.
Eldar are dying so they need no explanation

The amoutn of distruction a tiny scouting party causes sort of tells you what the army will actauly do when it comes.


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## thomas2 (Nov 4, 2007)

That is assuming they are a scouting party- we can't be sure of that as there isn't much evidence either way. If the hive fleets are a scouting party the attacks themselves will be so vast nothing will stop them (except Necrons sealing off the warp- travelling at sub-light speeds they will essentially be stopped).


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## Raptor_00 (Mar 17, 2008)

Well, of course, GW will never end 40k as they, in the end, want to make money. So there will never be a victor in any galactic conflict. 

GW may, however, be painting the way for something else. Tyranid fluff may be becoming stronger and make the doom of the Imerium seem comming, and then they hit you with something new to change the fate back to a stalemate. It could be a knowledge that the whole fleet they now think is a scout is in fact the entire Tyranid fleet, a new race hunting Tyranids (similar to Predator from the movies), new/ancient Imperial technology that can stop the hive fleets, mutation within the fleet that weakens the hive, a split of the fleet making some Tyranids turn against the hive itself.

Anything is possible. I personnaly hope for the new race, though it is probably the most unlikely as simply writting fluff is easier and creating a new army is time consuming.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

There are ways in which the Hive Mind can be blocked/manipulated which can prove disasterous to Tyranid forces. Its strongly speculated that Tigurius has penetrated the Hive-Mind (Maybe with the help of the Emperor) and was able to divert an entire Hive Fleet. If this is so, known Stronger Psykers such as Magnus the Red, Lords of Change, the Emperor etc. could also 'tap into' the Hive Mind and wreck havoc among the Tyranids.



Spot The Grot said:


> The waves that have been so far are merely scouting parties and are tiny compared to the actauly nid army. The hive mind is simply harvesting info on the galaxy so it can attack much more efficiently.


There is no clear evidence of this, for all we know almost the entire Tyranid Race could have revealed itself in the few Hive Fleets already in the galaxy!



Spot The Grot said:


> Ork genes simply make nids stronger.


Maybe so, but the Orks are likely to be just as numerous or possibly even more so than the Tyranids. (There are sources which claim that Orks inhabit other galaxies aswell) - Also note the Ork Reproductive Cycle, it is literally next to impossible to eradicate the Orkish race.



Spot The Grot said:


> Chaos same as imperium except with daemons its very complicated , but warp and nids do something together this may help them kill daemons in the end.


The Mortal Chaos forces have safe-havens in the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom. Daemons cannot be destroyed unless the Chaos Gods themselves are destroyed. Also dont under-estimate the Warp Gods themselves. Tzeentch and his Oracle know all the possible strands of the future, he could easily manipulate events to use the Tyranids for his own gain, and arguably would have/will prevent them if they seriously threaten their reign.



Spot The Grot said:


> Tau same as imperium.


Indeed, the Tau Empire pose no serious threat to the Tyranids, however due to the dense nature of their territory they would probably be able to withstand being eaten for a while.



Spot The Grot said:


> Eldar are dying so they need no explanation


True, but the Eldar are great manipulators and can play events to their benefit. If i remember didnt Eldrad re-direct a Hive Fleet into several Ork Empires effectively starting the long process of the Ork/Tyranid Wars. (Or was that Tigurius?!)



Spot The Grot said:


> The amoutn of distruction a tiny scouting party causes sort of tells you what the army will actauly do when it comes.


Again thats if were certain that it is only a 'scouting party'. :good:


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

I think that more will come but the Imperium have found a way to deal with the tyranid menace
Let them land and then call exterminatus and destroy the planet. 

I dont really believe that their is a huge armada of tyranids coming but if so the eldar will come and unite the tau and the imperium together to throw back the tyranid menace. 
Then they will realise that they hate each other as much as they hate the tyranids and will go back to fighting eachother.

Its got to be the orks in the end. They outnumber everyone.

However for all our speculation games workshop will never end 40k as their bank balance is more important than satisfying our lust for knowledge.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

deathbringer said:


> I think that more will come but the Imperium have found a way to deal with the tyranid menace
> Let them land and then call exterminatus and destroy the planet.


Not a very full-proof tactic! Firstly they have to retain ships in orbit in order to order an exterminatus, which could be problematic if there is a full-scale Tyranid invasion in full-swing. 

Secondly destroying a planet which has been invaded by Tyranids will hardly reduce the overall numbers of a Hive Fleet, it would be more of a loss than a gain.

A common tactic I imagine the Imperium would use (as portrayed in the novel 'Dark Disciple') when faced with a large Tyranid invasion would be:

- Evacuate the surrounding planets as fast as possible
- Muster as many ships as possible together in a blockade in an attempt to stop/delay/destroy the Tyranid Fleet. (I imagine the Imperials would rather face the Tyranids in Space than on the ground unless there are a lot of loyal Astartes present)



deathbringer said:


> I dont really believe that their is a huge armada of tyranids coming


Why not?



deathbringer said:


> but if so the eldar will come and unite the tau and the imperium together to throw back the tyranid menace.
> Then they will realise that they hate each other as much as they hate the tyranids and will go back to fighting eachother.


The Eldar are fickle allies. They would only directly aid the Imperium/Tau if it would later benefit themselves. The Imperium would not actively seek an alliance with either the Tau or Eldar, being as xenophobic as they are. With the Tau left in the middle! Im not saying a temporary alliance is not possible, it would just be very problematic. Such an Alliance would have to take place in or near Tau Space as the Tau cannot travel long distances quickly, and I imagine the Tau would be paranoid about large forces of humans and Eldar in their territory. 

If it is true and the current Hive-Fleets are a mere scouting force, then there is almost nothing that could stand against them. I stand by my argument that the only way the Tyranids can be thwarted/challeneged is by challenging/tapping into the Hive Mind, which takes an incredably powerful Psyker. Im talking like Magnus or the Emperor!



deathbringer said:


> Its got to be the orks in the end. They outnumber everyone.


Although an Ultimate Ork victory is unlikely (currently anyway) as they are prone to constant infighting and can easily be manipulated. A Waaagh large enough to swamp the galaxy is in intself next to impossible to be mustered.


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## Sanguine1 (May 9, 2009)

Hmm well Nids have always baffled me b/c I'm not sure exactly how large or small they numbered. But if a large force did show themselves I do believe the Imperium would take the battle to space instead of actually fighting them on the ground. 

If a planet were to be over run with Nids though I believe they would purge the planet in the same way Horus purged IstvanIII in Galaxy in Flames. 

1)Life Eater virus detroys everything on the surface that is alive including itself

2)Orbital bombardment creates a firestorm destroying the breathable atmosphere as well as anything which happened to hide underground to escape the life eater virus.

As far as the nids taking out Chaos, I really don't see that happening b/c like stated earlier you would have to kill the actual chaos gods and if that happened the warp would grow still and then the nids wouldn't be able to actually move between planets like they do.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

All Humanity, Tau and Eldar will die, the Chaos Gods will get Ork followers, and it'll be a 3 way Free For All between the Orks, Nids and Necrons.

Orks will just keep being respored, Tyranids replace too quickly, and the Necrons are unliving, so don't need sustenance, and their single goal is to eradicate all life.

As to Sanguines suggestion, that was essentially what Inquisitor Lord Kryptmann did - instead of burning the Nid threat through, he kept the Space Marine chapters, IG Regiments, Navy Ships, and whatnot alive, by Burning the worlds before the Nids got there.

He killed 10+ worlds, starving the nids, who then began to break up, paving the way for Deathwatch Kill Teams to invade the primary hive ship, and kamikaze.


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## thomas2 (Nov 4, 2007)

Sanguine1 said:


> 1)Life Eater virus detroys everything on the surface that is alive including itself
> 
> 2)Orbital bombardment creates a firestorm destroying the breathable atmosphere as well as anything which happened to hide underground to escape the life eater virus.


Problem with this is the tyranid codex suggest some tyranids have evolved to survive exterminases, and think about what if they covered the planet in living bunkers to keep themselves alive. Even worse the BFG tyranid supplement suggests tyranids are learning in use viruses the Imperium uses against them- just virus bomb a planet and suck up the pre-made soup.


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## Sanguine1 (May 9, 2009)

Hmm well that would kinda counter the whole burning planet theory i had.

But if the nids have no food how will they survive? (sorry little to no nid knowledge)


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## CaptianEzekyleAbbadon (Feb 6, 2009)

i personly think that the nids will eventually die out cos the get 2 cockey. the necrons will rule the universe once more


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

as was origionally said, the tyrinid codex is basically overblowing the fact that as of this moment the Tyranids are the greatest external threat to the imperium because they have yet to come up with an effective way of countering the hive fleets as they have Necrons, Orks, Tau, etc...


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## Virus49 (Aug 7, 2009)

What about tzeentch? Im no pro on fluff. But doesnt this particular chaos god control pretty much everything. To the point where his greater daemon CANNOT be defeated unless it is part of the gods master plan. This would suggest Chaos followers of Tzeentch could win in the end. Knowing everything before it happens has to be an advantage...


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

Actually in the pantheon of Chaos Gods, Korne is the oldest and more powerful Diety as he is fueled by rage and destruction, which can be found almost anywhere in the galaxy since the beginning. Now Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Tzeentch fan which makes exposing his weaknesses particularly painful, but it needs to be said. And as for his 'Plotting' Tzeentch really doesn't really think about the long-term because his nature is, like nurgle, self-destructive, as such his strength tends to wax and wane. Besides the warp shadow left by the tyranid fleet is a threat to the chaos gods as well.


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## Epic Fail (Jun 23, 2008)

It's all about sequencing people! If nids eat all humans, then chaos dies (except maybe Slaanesh, for a while)! If nids eat other races first then that frees up a lot of resources for humanity to spank them (especially if under strength or bloated from all that eating).

I need this question answered however - do nids travel through the warp?


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

I believe they do.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Epic Fail said:


> It's all about sequencing people! If nids eat all humans, then chaos dies (except maybe Slaanesh, for a while)! If nids eat other races first then that frees up a lot of resources for humanity to spank them (especially if under strength or bloated from all that eating).


The Chaos Gods are fed by all mortals not just by humanity. Without Humanity the Chaos Gods would be weakened but not destroyed.



Epic Fail said:


> I need this question answered however - do nids travel through the warp?


Yes they do.



ironhammer said:


> Actually in the pantheon of Chaos Gods, Khorne is the oldest and more powerful Diety


Incorrect. Khorne is not the strongest or most dominant God. I believe in older fluff he was described as being so, but in the newer fluff (namely the Chaos Daemons codex) there is no permenantley dominant god. 

The Nature of the Great Game is such that there are times when a certain god is dominant within the warp (Could be any of them, not particually Khorne) - Eventually the other 3 will ally to bring down the dominant god, and then another will rise to prominence. This pattern is played out again and again throughout eternity. 

So at times Khorne is the Strongest, at other times he is the weakest.



ironhammer said:


> as he is fueled by rage and destruction, which can be found almost anywhere in the galaxy since the beginning.


Just as Hope (Tzeentch), Despair (Nurgle), and Excess (Slaanesh) can also be found in all corners of the galaxy among all sentient species.



ironhammer said:


> Now Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Tzeentch fan which makes exposing his weaknesses particularly painful


Tzeentch's only weakness is that he cannot hold all of the possible strands of the future in his intellect. 



ironhammer said:


> And as for his 'Plotting' Tzeentch really doesn't really think about the long-term because his nature is, like nurgle, self-destructive, as such his strength tends to wax and wane.


Tzeentch certainly does think in the long-term. He knows all of the past and present, but not all of the future. He attempts to manipulate all he can, which obviously involves thinking in the Long Term. He has no ultimate master plan though, as its the simple act of planning and manipulating and therefore change is enough.

His Power is self-destructive only in the sense that he often foils his own plans, and his armies of Daemons often fight against each other.

Nurgle's power is more about inevitability. The inevitability of decay, but Nurgle is also about Rebirth.

All of the Chaos Gods individual power waxes and wanes, not just Tzeentchs.



ironhammer said:


> Besides the warp shadow left by the tyranid fleet is a threat to the chaos gods as well.


There is no evidence to show that the Shadow in the Warp poses a threat to the Warp Powers.

- I have relavent quotes from canon material to back up my answers if required


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## cheef3 (Aug 8, 2009)

what most of you dont realize is that the tau are evolving so fast that by the time a tyranid fleet breaks through fire warriors will have like str.7 ap.2 weaponry that gets crazy amounts of shots


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## cheef3 (Aug 8, 2009)

also if a race could funnel all nids and all orks into one area of space then due to the ork life cycle the nids would have an everlasting food source and orks can finally satisfy there thirst for waagh. problem solved.


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

You are right on a lot of the things you said but...

Here's the thing, and i know it's childish, but there is a lot of 'new' chaos lore that i actually choose to ignore. the great game is one of them because it's out of character of the chaos gods; I mean does korne seem like the kind of diety that participates in a 'friendly competition' or a blood feud? One other thing, Tzeench feeds on ambition and deception, not hope. And nurgle feeds on death and disease, when an epidemic arises his power grows, at the height of the epidemic nurgle's strength is rival to that of korne and at times surpases it. but as the epidemic starts to run out of people to kill his power weakens and this is how his nature is self destructive. But yes Tzeench is Only self destructive in that his scheems tend to get overblown and they fall apart, that was kinda what i was referring to.


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

cheef3 said:


> what most of you dont realize is that the tau are evolving so fast that by the time a tyranid fleet breaks through fire warriors will have like str.7 ap.2 weaponry that gets crazy amounts of shots


And the Tyranids are also evolving so how do you know they wont evolve to counter whatever the tau got? and besides tyranids have faster-than-light travel, tau don't, tyranids can hit anywhere in the tau empire at a moments notice, tau can't retaliate that quickly.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ironhammer said:


> Here's the thing, and i know it's childish, but there is a lot of 'new' chaos lore that i actually choose to ignore.


Then that is of course your choice, but it doesnt stop the old fluff being retconned in favour of the new 



ironhammer said:


> the great game is one of them because it's out of character of the chaos gods; I mean does korne seem like the kind of diety that participates in a 'friendly competition' or a blood feud?


The Great Game is hardly a 'friendly competition'. Dont let the word 'Game' decieve you 

Each God desires total domination, and will attempt to wipe aside all opposition to achieve that. The Gods hate each other, and are at war almost constantly with each other. This constant state of warfare is simply known as the Great Game.



ironhammer said:


> One other thing, Tzeench feeds on ambition and deception, not hope.


Hope, in itself is a desire for change. Is ambition and Hope not the same thing? (I will add a relavent quote later)




ironhammer said:


> And nurgle feeds on death and disease, when an epidemic arises his power grows, at the height of the epidemic nurgle's strength is rival to that of korne and at times surpases it.


Its not actually the death/disease that empowers Nurgle, it is the despair that arises from it. Disease causes mass amounts of Despair, which feeds Nurgle. The only reason Nurgle is associated with Disease is because that is the most effective way of spreading the emotion; Despair.




ironhammer said:


> but as the epidemic starts to run out of people to kill his power weakens and this is how his nature is self destructive.


Again but he only weakens because there is no one left to feel despair, not because of the disease dying out. When i said Nurgle is about inevitability i meant that however many times things rot down and degenerate, they or others always replace them. Rebirth which leads to death, it is a constant cycle which Nurgle benefits from.

Im rushed for time at-the-mo, Im off to work now - But i will post up relavent quotes to back-up my answers when i get home.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

The Tau don't have FTL....Now. But, the Eldar, their patrons, may give them the Webway keys before they fade away. Won't help so much without a farseer, but would give them....odd mobility.


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

Creon said:


> The Tau don't have FTL....Now. But, the Eldar, their patrons, may give them the Webway keys before they fade away. Won't help so much without a farseer, but would give them....odd mobility.


that is a big if...

Eldar might be too proud to surrender their technology to anyone. even the tau.


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## Chaoz94 (Jun 17, 2008)

ironhammer said:


> that is a big if...
> 
> Eldar might be too proud to surrender their technology to anyone. even the tau.


there has been hints that the eldar do respect the tau more than the other races
now
im not saying that they totally respect them and are likely to give them the keys
im just saying their more likely to give the keys to the tau rather thann anyone else 
(note if you do take the dark crusade as fluff , well ive read that the eldar , if they defeat the tau at their stronghold , send the bodies of the dead tau to the rest of the tau empire as a sign of respect , or atleast something like that)

also for all we know , perhaps the new race gw will create will be able to pose a threat to the tyranids/necrons , would seem more logical imho

my 4 cents 

chaoz


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I truly belive (as the Planet strike and Nid Codexes state) that the war between Nids and Orks in the Octavious Empire is never ending. Orks are design to be like, well, little Hulks. They are constantly getting stronger in a good fight, can survive any wound, and when they do die they produce another 10 in their place. Nids cant counter this... at all. All they can do is eat the ones their killing and produce better killers to face the stronger orks. Stalemate.

Also anothere good anti Nid Race would be the forces of Chaos. No freaking way the Nids can travel into the EoT or Maelstrom and come out it victorious. The Emperor and Eldar have tried and failed miserably. Even Necs cant do much about it. The unlimitted suplly of Deamons, and CSMs would crush a Hive Fleet. Thats not including Nids lost in warptravel, mutations, and the eventual Chaos Nids that would be spawned. 

Finnaly we have the good old Necrons. Hive Fleets are shown to avoid Tomb Worlds becuase the Necs mess with their Shadow Warp crap. Sorry Nids. Ur not all that and a bag of chips. 

Even Eldar/Dark Eldar stand a good chance of survival in their Webways which, Guess what, Nids cant enter. 

Wow the Tyranids sound more and more like overated chumps. seems only the Tau and Imperials have something to fear in the form of the Hive Mind. Which Tigerius did tap into, and in gamming terms he suks ass as a Psyker.


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> I truly belive (as the Planet strike and Nid Codexes state) that the war between Nids and Orks in the Octavious Empire is never ending. Orks are design to be like, well, little Hulks. They are constantly getting stronger in a good fight, can survive any wound, and when they do die they produce another 10 in their place. Nids cant counter this... at all. All they can do is eat the ones their killing and produce better killers to face the stronger orks. Stalemate.
> 
> Also anothere good anti Nid Race would be the forces of Chaos. No freaking way the Nids can travel into the EoT or Maelstrom and come out it victorious. The Emperor and Eldar have tried and failed miserably. Even Necs cant do much about it. The unlimitted suplly of Deamons, and CSMs would crush a Hive Fleet. Thats not including Nids lost in warptravel, mutations, and the eventual Chaos Nids that would be spawned.
> 
> ...


1st i generally do accapt new fluff, I just have a problem with the new daemon lore because it just doesn't fit right, kinda like how csm got really nerfd in their new codex, it's similar. and eldar actually do have a lot to fear from tyranids and so do chaos for that matter. for the eldar, when they've fought nids, they've died, or very nearly died (why do you think Iyanden has so many wraithguard?) and they can't stay in the webway forever or they would have a long time ago, so they would have to face them sooner or later and I'm not sure they are up to it. I don't think nids get lost to the warp that often because i would think they'd be scared of that warp shadow that follows the nids, I believe if a daemon gets caught in it they would be neutralized. and in reality there are no more csm than there are loyal space marines and if the loyal marines struggle with nids, what makes you think csm can? and as for the the stalemate of leviathan, niuds don't just get biomass from dead enemies, they also retrieve it from their own fallen. and what about the splinter fleets from kraken? Make no mistake the nids are a real threat, to EVERYONE who draws breath in this galaxy (exept necrons who don't breathe).


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> I truly belive (as the Planet strike and Nid Codexes state) that the war between Nids and Orks in the Octavious Empire is never ending. Orks are design to be like, well, little Hulks. They are constantly getting stronger in a good fight, can survive any wound, and when they do die they produce another 10 in their place. Nids cant counter this... at all. All they can do is eat the ones their killing and produce better killers to face the stronger orks. Stalemate.


I agree with this. Wars between Tyranids and Orks are largely stalemates. Both Races benefit from wars of attrition, and thats exactly the type of wars that are fought between Tyranids and Orks. More often than not it results in Stalemate.



Warlock in Training said:


> Also another good anti Nid Race would be the forces of Chaos. No freaking way the Nids can travel into the EoT or Maelstrom and come out it victorious. The Emperor and Eldar have tried and failed miserably. Even Necs cant do much about it. The unlimitted suplly of Deamons, and CSMs would crush a Hive Fleet. Thats not including Nids lost in warptravel, mutations, and the eventual Chaos Nids that would be spawned.


I Partly agree  - Chaos is a strong force against the Tyranid Menace. The Shadow in the Warp which is the blocking effect caused by the mass amounts of Tyranid consciousness' given off by the Hive Mind in my opinion would not be able to overcome strong Warp Rifts like the Eye of Terror or the Malestrom. Also Daemons are infinite in number, and have the power of the warp on their side, during Daemonic Incursions I very much doubt a Tyranid force could withstand the Daemons.



Warlock in Training said:


> Even Eldar/Dark Eldar stand a good chance of survival in their Webways which, Guess what, Nids cant enter.


The Eldar arn't perfectly safe in the Webway. Since the Fall large parts of it are unreachable, the vast majority of modern Eldar/Craftworlds do not posess full maps of the webway. Many parts are overrun with daemons and other warp creatures etc. But who said the Tyranids can't enter the Webway?



Warlock in Training said:


> Wow the Tyranids sound more and more like overated chumps. seems only the Tau and Imperials have something to fear in the form of the Hive Mind. Which Tigerius did tap into, and in gamming terms he suks ass as a Psyker.


I wouldnt under-estimate the Tyranids. They pose a threat to all the species of the galaxy, not just the Tau and Imperials. 



ironhammer said:


> 1st i generally do accapt new fluff, I just have a problem with the new daemon lore because it just doesn't fit right, kinda like how csm got really nerfd in their new codex, it's similar.


I totally agree with CSM getting done over in their new codex. But the Daemons have just had fluff added not taken away, which has given more depth to them and the Gods they serve.



ironhammer said:


> and they can't stay in the webway forever or they would have a long time ago, so they would have to face them sooner or later and I'm not sure they are up to it.


The Dark Eldar have lived in the Webway for over 10,000 years, only coming out to take slaves to top-up there soul energies to escape The Thirst. But I dont see anyway in which the Craftworld Eldar are reliant on the Material Plane, there is no reason why they couldnt stay in the webway permenantley. They do however have more influence to the grander scale of things in the Material Galaxy, eg. By fighting Chaos and attempting to prevent them 'winning' therefore also stopping Chaos bursting into and fully overrunning the Webway. But I see no reason why the Tyranids couldn't eventually gain entry into the webway.



ironhammer said:


> I don't think nids get lost to the warp that often because i would think they'd be scared of that warp shadow that follows the nids, I believe if a daemon gets caught in it they would be neutralized.


Thats a plausable theory, but we have next-to-no information on what exactly the Shadow in the Warp or even the Hive Mind is, so we can't say for definate. I would argue however that in certain places it would be the Tyranids Warp Shadow that would actually be dampened out by the energies of the Warp. In strong areas of Warp Activity, like the Eye of Terror for example.



ironhammer said:


> and in reality there are no more csm than there are loyal space marines and if the loyal marines struggle with nids, what makes you think csm can?


Indeed. But Daemons are more the trump card for Chaos rather than Chaos Marines.


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## Lord of Rebirth (Jun 7, 2008)

Nids were more of an elemental enemy back when I started playing in that they don't have names or care about deaths but they just kinda flow in an effort to attack and eat everything and if they get snuffed out they tried their best?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ironhammer said:


> I don't think nids get lost to the warp that often because i would think they'd be scared of that warp shadow that follows the nids, I believe if a daemon gets caught in it they would be neutralized.


Was browsing through the Daemonhunters Codex this morning and theres a few examples of Tyranids getting corrupted/manipulated by Chaos:



Daemonhunters Codex Page 53 said:


> A hive ship was sucked into the Warp and what emerged was corrupted beyond all reason. When the few surviving monsters make planetfall, the Daemonhunters are waiting to destroy them all.





Daemonhunters Codex Page 53 said:


> A corrupted Hive Tyrant has been infected with Nurgle's Rot and is spreading plague ahead of its swarms. The Daemonhunters must find it and kill it to give the Imperial Forces a chance of resisting.





Daemonhunters Codex Page 53 said:


> The Changer of the Ways has engineered circumstances that have diverted the path of a Tyranid fleet. The exact purpose of this is unknowable, but that Tzeentch desires it is enough reason for the Daemonhunters to stop it.





Daemonhunters Codex Page 53 said:


> A Khornate icon unearthed by the Tyranid's rapacious digestion of a planet's surface is driving the monsters into a frenzy of destruction. It must be destoryed.


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## jopax (Aug 18, 2008)

The 'nids are a formidable foe, and do pose a great threat to everyone, but the Imperium has found several ways to combat them, they are moderatly effective but they are all pyric(hope i spelled it right) victories that almost always end with the loss of a world(remember there are only so much colonizable planets in the galaxy)
Now to kill some theories, if the 'nids could be denied warp travel they would not be stoppet, sure they would be slow as hell but hey, they came from another galaxy without using the warp and they were fine, for all they care they have the whole time of the universe at their hands.
Second while the Octavius orks vs 'nids was a good plan as Kryptman himself said it is only to buy time, because eventually the stalemate will be broken and if either side wins it will be bad for everyone because they both thrive on battle, just imagine orks after several decades of war or 'nids with all that orkish DNA consumed.
And Eldar are not entirely safe in the webway, i think it was Iyanden who got allmost destroyed in the fight, a short story about it was on the GW homepage and i remember descriptions of Tyranid capillary towers and whatnots infesting the craftworld and how hard it was to get rid of them once they got in.


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## Phenious (Jun 10, 2009)

This has been very insightful towards my love of the nids. Reading everyone's thoughts, all I have to go off of is my Nid Codex and my brother's SM codex. Also remember that the Nid codex is written by the imperium (or are all of them?) It is just the information that they have garnered from their encounters. Even if Psykers can "tap" into the hive mind I would think that the One let them, to in turn "tap" into their consciousness. If Starcraft's story line is anything to be attributed to the Nids then attempting to touch the Hive mind could turn horribly for who ever attempts it and their race. The Hive Mind is a "mind" after all, always learning from its encounters.
As I understand it, the reason that Nids don't actively seek out Chaos is because the two have nothing to offer each other. There is no need for them to face off. Nids want bio-mass, which the chaos have no corporal bodies of their own (hence why they return to the warp when defeated). And in turn the Nids have no individual souls, just a collective that does not feel emotions (though someone says they can be affected by the Gods. I wonder if it is because they have lost their connection to the Hive Mind and have begun acting as just an embodiment of that god's will or daemon spirits?), it only seeks to learn and grow. Maybe in time the Hive mind will know emotions, but as of now I don't believe it does.

As for the arguments for and against their being more Nids that what have been seen, there would have to be. Else why haven't anyone net the body of the Hive Mind? What untold horrors could be protecting that precious organism? What untold worlds and races have already fallen to the Nids outside our galaxy? Maybe all that genetic info is being held for the Nid "Home world."

But again I love hearing all this other info, like how Hive Fleets avoid Nec worlds and that they travel the warp. I had figured they were just large bugs that float through space on solar waves or through psyker power. Also liked hearing the bits about witchhunters encountering nids under the influence of the Chaos. All this furthers my understanding of my favorite and chosen race to play! Cheers!!!


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## Innsmouth (Mar 16, 2009)

Necrosis said:


> To bad that has no effect on the Necrons.


Nothing to eat, bare "bones". I believe it's pointed out that the Nids just avoid tomb worlds. To a C'Tan genestealers are probably just as tasty as the next marine. The Necrons were largely unaffected by the Enslavers? Psykers such as most Nids would go the way of the Old Ones.


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## Innsmouth (Mar 16, 2009)

If the Nids ate everyone what would maintain the powers of Chaos?


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

Phenious said:


> This has been very insightful towards my love of the nids. Reading everyone's thoughts, all I have to go off of is my Nid Codex and my brother's SM codex. Also remember that the Nid codex is written by the imperium (or are all of them?) It is just the information that they have garnered from their encounters. Even if Psykers can "tap" into the hive mind I would think that the One let them, to in turn "tap" into their consciousness. If Starcraft's story line is anything to be attributed to the Nids then attempting to touch the Hive mind could turn horribly for who ever attempts it and their race. The Hive Mind is a "mind" after all, always learning from its encounters.
> As I understand it, the reason that Nids don't actively seek out Chaos is because the two have nothing to offer each other. There is no need for them to face off. Nids want bio-mass, which the chaos have no corporal bodies of their own (hence why they return to the warp when defeated). And in turn the Nids have no individual souls, just a collective that does not feel emotions (though someone says they can be affected by the Gods. I wonder if it is because they have lost their connection to the Hive Mind and have begun acting as just an embodiment of that god's will or daemon spirits?), it only seeks to learn and grow. Maybe in time the Hive mind will know emotions, but as of now I don't believe it does.
> 
> As for the arguments for and against their being more Nids that what have been seen, there would have to be. Else why haven't anyone net the body of the Hive Mind? What untold horrors could be protecting that precious organism? What untold worlds and races have already fallen to the Nids outside our galaxy? Maybe all that genetic info is being held for the Nid "Home world."
> ...


It's nice to see someone so interested in tyrannic lore, there truly aren't enough. With that said I need to clarify something, The tyranids are not the zerg. It would be better to compare the hive mind of the tyranids to hive minds in real life such as incect colonies, schools of fish, even certain human actions like riots and angry mobs. The Imperium has not found the body of the hive mind is because it has no body, no physical form. The hive mind is the result of all the creatures in the hive fleet acting and moving in ways which most benefit the hive fleet. the gaunts do what is best to advance the swarm, the tyrants/warrior lead the swarm to bvenefit their bio-ship, the bio-ship does whatever will benefit the fleet and the fleet moves on worlds that will best feed every last insect in the fleet. it is a cycle that acts and moves almost as if it had a singular conscience. Synapse as I see it according to this philosophy is more like psychic wi-fi connecting the minds of the various insects together so that they are aware of each other's actions and can coordinate effectively. it would explain why it overwhelmed Tigerus when he made contact with it, millions of voices all at the same time in your head would be too much for anyone not used to it. At least that is my understanding of the hive mind.


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## zabo (Dec 19, 2008)

I love nids they are my favorite army, however, if you think about it necrons whipped out all the old species except orcs and they supposidly created the new ones ( im getting all this from an unreliable sorce ) So arnt they probably going to whipe them all out to? Necron weaponry is the most advanced, even better than eldar, and I think they can close warp gates or something as well, so In my opinion if there were a side that eventually wins it would be necrons.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ironhammer said:


> It's nice to see someone so interested in tyrannic lore, there truly aren't enough. With that said I need to clarify something, The tyranids are not the zerg. It would be better to compare the hive mind of the tyranids to hive minds in real life such as incect colonies, schools of fish, even certain human actions like riots and angry mobs. The Imperium has not found the body of the hive mind is because it has no body, no physical form. The hive mind is the result of all the creatures in the hive fleet acting and moving in ways which most benefit the hive fleet. the gaunts do what is best to advance the swarm, the tyrants/warrior lead the swarm to bvenefit their bio-ship, the bio-ship does whatever will benefit the fleet and the fleet moves on worlds that will best feed every last insect in the fleet. it is a cycle that acts and moves almost as if it had a singular conscience. Synapse as I see it according to this philosophy is more like psychic wi-fi connecting the minds of the various insects together so that they are aware of each other's actions and can coordinate effectively. it would explain why it overwhelmed Tigerus when he made contact with it, millions of voices all at the same time in your head would be too much for anyone not used to it. At least that is my understanding of the hive mind.


Well said :good: Thats generally my take on the Hive Mind aswell.



zabo said:


> if you think about it necrons whipped out all the old species except orcs and they supposidly created the new ones ( im getting all this from an unreliable sorce )


Yes that was a very unreliable source  The Necrons didnt wipe out all the 'old species'. They fought for the C'tan against the Old Ones during the War in Heaven. They were slowly beating the Old Ones - the Old Ones created several psychic races (notably the Orks and Eldar) during the wars who ultimately failed to combat the Necrons/C'tan. To cut a long story short the Enslaver Plague was released, finishing off the Old Ones and forcing the C'tan/Necrons to go into hibernation! 



zabo said:


> Necron weaponry is the most advanced, even better than eldar so In my opinion if there were a side that eventually wins it would be necrons.


Necron weaponary is not necessarily the most advanced. It cannot be compared to the Eldar's technology for example because the Eldar's technology runs through psychic methods.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Nids will not destroy all other races for the simple reason that they can't at least for now. Lets face the facts they can't get to chaos because chaos is all, but invincible in the eye of terror/maleastom (Not to mention the hive mind can't operate in the psychic hellstorm that is warp space.) Also they aren't able to, or are not interested in the necrons since they are well not organic, and tend to inhabit dead worlds. Hell they can't even operate effectively in the solar sanctum because of the warp shadow of the emperor. I mean it standard GW bullshit to say that so, and so army could detroy everything but in actuality almost ever facet of the 40k universe is designed to grind down to stalemates or petty victories.


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> (Not to mention the hive mind can't operate in the psychic hellstorm that is warp space.) Also they aren't able to, or are not interested in the necrons since they are well not organic, and tend to inhabit dead worlds. Hell they can't even operate effectively in the solar sanctum because of the warp shadow of the emperor.


 the hive mind is a psychic network connecting all the nids together, psychic, which means that their thoughts are transmitted through the warp to be recieved by another mind. as in the hive mind does function in the warp because it has to function in the warp to fit with the continuity of the wh40000 universe. what did you think causes the warp shadow? and the emperor doesn't have a warp shadow only tyranid fleets have a warp shadow, the emperor has a warp presence like all humans and psychers its just that his is so strong it can be "seen" for lack of a better word, clear across the galaxy and is why it is used as a reference point by navigators. there is a difference.


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## Commissar Maximus (Sep 20, 2008)

I read almost all of this thread.Hive fleets avoid tomb worlds right...because there simply is no biomass to strip.Necrons harvest souls i think... So how could ther be any conflict possible.In the end necrons would surely travel the galaxy as they do now.


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## Sytus (Aug 27, 2009)

It all seems to boild down to a "final Showdow" scenario between Necrons,tyranids, and possibly the forces of chaos.


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## Commissar Maximus (Sep 20, 2008)

I think that tyranids and necrons wont be engaging any confit,war or etc...
for they are useless in each other's main goal.They simply avoid each other.
Hivemind means no soul/Necron means no bio mass.


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## necronlord (Jun 27, 2008)

For on e to destroy the choas gods nids dont have to worry. in the eldar codex it says that when all eldar die (which we all know they will) they shall all form a god of the dead that will destroy slaanesh and then move on to the other 3.
Also when making dow 2 gw described tyranids as a finger testing the water and creating ripples. But if they whole fist is plunged in then it will make waves and destruction.

k:


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## Innsmouth (Mar 16, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Well said :good: Thats generally my take on the Hive Mind aswell.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is more advanced, as far as physics ex: inertialess engine, phase out, living metal. They can't rely on the warp to get around because they have no Psykers. The Enslavers are a warp race that attacks and possesses psykers because the Chaos Gods are displeasing to them and killing psykers kills chaos. There was nothing left to eat so the C'Tan went into hiding and killed everything living where they did so to keep psykers from popping up and the enslavers away. The Necrons even have the ability to destroy the warp, hence pylons. The C'Tan will likely be harvesting the Nids at the end of time and everyone will have forgotten about mankind, the eldar and the gods of Chaos.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

necronlord said:


> in the eldar codex it says that when all eldar die (which we all know they will) they shall all form a god of the dead that will destroy slaanesh and then move on to the other 3.


I think you should read the codex more clearly. It states that some far-fetched Seers have realised that Y'nnead (the 'god' you refer to) may well be the only hope for the Eldar Race. They hope that Y'nnead will destroy Slaanesh. Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch are not mentioned.

I interpret it however as they hope Y'nnead will loosen Slaanesh's grip on the Eldar as a whole, and therefore essentially destroy the Thirst, freeing the Eldar from She who thirsts. Slaanesh (and Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch for that matter) cannot be fully destroyed unless all mortal races are destroyed.


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## hijynx (Aug 7, 2009)

cheef3 said:


> also if a race could funnel all nids and all orks into one area of space then due to the ork life cycle the nids would have an everlasting food source and orks can finally satisfy there thirst for waagh. problem solved.



I fully endorse this idea.


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## Shovan (Sep 24, 2009)

If you think the Nids' are a threat now, just wait, they have a new codex coming out and from what I gather in the rumor section they are getting some pretty bad ass new models (One bigger than a carnifex) and new abilities (More anti-take weaponry!).

I'm hoping for some nice updated fluff to go along with it. They are bringing back special characters and adding new ones saying something about several legendary Tyranid whom survived on the battlefield for an extraordinary amount of time and thus have evolved into something more.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

I honestly think that the necrons & C'Tan will conquer all. their weapons eradicate matter. necrons dont just harvest souls, they destroy all living things.
one way to overcome the tyranids would be for the eldar to awaken the tomb worlds, leave the necrons to go about their daily routine of killing stuff, and then fuck off back to the webway.
Number 2:killing off the nids: Humans kill a necron(stasis bomb) humans take gauss weapon. humans send gauss weapon to mars. adeptus mechanicus analyse it, then recreate it after a couple of years of study. enlarge it, stick it onto a battle barge, then point at nids and shoot. 
i may have missed something, but thats my 3.37492302041111 cents.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I think Nids are not effective in Warp Space areas (EoT, Maelstrom, Warp Storms) and Chaos would be more than happy to mutate/corrupt such fleets that will try. Its a given.

Necron not fighting Nids is crap. Necs hate all forms of LIFE. Nids are living, the soul thing is a Ctan thing, Necrons are program to kill life. Why do Necs Tomb Worlds have no trees, I mean the trees dont have souls so why kill them? Cause its LIVING. I hate this Necs leaving Nids alone crap, Nids be a likely target out of spite.

Also if the Nids are so powerful then how is a Single Hive Fleet was battered back by a single Craft World, or a single System called Macrage, or now Eternally locked in a battle with a few Ork planets in a stale mate? 

Yeah launch there entire force, it will be stalemated in some way. They be as annoying as Orks.


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

mcmuffin said:


> Number 2:killing off the nids: Humans kill a necron(stasis bomb) humans take gauss weapon. humans send gauss weapon to mars. adeptus mechanicus analyse it, then recreate it after a couple of years of study. enlarge it, stick it onto a battle barge, then point at nids and shoot.
> i may have missed something, but thats my 3.37492302041111 cents.


that would be techno-heresy.


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## Ork_boss (Sep 30, 2009)

Its either orks or tyranids who will conquer the galaxy
But tyranids Eat PLANETS so an ork infestation will be ?inside? the hive fleet brrrr. I'm afraid.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

aren't the C'tan the bane of the tyranids


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## Ork_boss (Sep 30, 2009)

Not Really A Carnifex or two can kill the Ctan
He He SM genestealer :grin:


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## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

Let me first start be discussing the warp as it is described in the Core Rulebook, and the 5th Ed CSM codex. 

Imagine a very large empty shere. Divide it in half.

The top half of that shere is the materium, or the physical universe. This contains sentient races that harbor strong emotions and urges that can be felt on the other side.

The bottom half contains the Chaos Gods, and various deamons. Where the strongest emothions and urges are present in the top half, is where the deamons migrate on the bottom half. 

If every single living being suddenly jumped to the nearest galaxy, the same would be true of the beings in the warp, sinse they are sustained by the beings on top. 

Now, for the sake of analogy, the beings in the bottom half gain nothing from Tyranids. Tyranids have no emotions or desires and so they do not sustain the beings in the warp at all, thusly, where the nids travel in the top half of the shere, they cast a "shadow" in the bottom half, becouse the devour all the beings that would otherwise be sustaining chaos. 

The Tyranids are thusly, the soul greatest threat to Chaos. The Emperor is powerful enough to fight them, and probably even win if it came down to it, but Chaos simply can't exist where the nids are, so its no contest there.

As far are the others go... its true that the nids are of unknown number, and so I can't speculate how many there are, Tigurius is probably the only person in the universe, short of perhaps the Emperor, who knows, and even that is not for certain.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Prince Endymion said:


> As far are the others go... its true that the nids are of unknown number, and so I can't speculate how many there are, Tigurius is probably the only person in the universe, short of perhaps the Emperor, who knows, and even that is not for certain.


Why not ask Tigurius then?


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Ork_boss said:


> Not Really A Carnifex or two can kill the Ctan
> He He SM genestealer :grin:


I mean in the fluff, I think it was mentioned in the Tyanids Codex or the rulebook that the tyranids avoid the necrons and the C'tan


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Prince Endymion said:


> Let me first start be discussing the warp as it is described in the Core Rulebook, and the 5th Ed CSM codex.
> 
> Imagine a very large empty shere. Divide it in half.
> 
> ...



Very true and pretty well said. However I point out the only flaw of the threat lvl nids possess to the Chaos Gods. The Shadow of the warp crap wont work on Real Space ovelapped with Warp Space. That said I still strongly belive that Nids cannot function or touch the Eye of Terror, Maelstrom, or any major Warp Storm areas. Chaos Deamons thrive there and the Shadow of the Warp shows in no way of closing these areas of. If it came down to it I say Nids attempting to eneter these areas will give Chaos Gods new pets to corrupt with "gifts" and may find a way to affect the Hive Mind Itself. A Norn Queen is suppose to be connected to the Hivemind right? If it was possess it would be a crippling blow to that Hive Mind. Im just stating the obvious tricks Chaos likes to play.


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## Rockdacasbah (Sep 29, 2009)

Tossing in the necron pitch as i usually do on this forum. The Necrons are currently a huge threat around the galaxy with the MINIMAL amount of the tombs that have been activated, with an ass yet unnamed amount that are yet to be activated and restored to operation. Let us not forget that for the most part whenever a Necron phases out, he is rebuilt or has a new body created for him to continue on. With the exception of complete destruction they will return to fight again, like good space zombies. The 3rd C'tan, the Dragon is also as yet still in hibernation.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Very true and pretty well said. However I point out the only flaw of the threat lvl nids possess to the Chaos Gods. The Shadow of the warp crap wont work on Real Space ovelapped with Warp Space. That said I still strongly belive that Nids cannot function or touch the Eye of Terror, Maelstrom, or any major Warp Storm areas. Chaos Deamons thrive there and the Shadow of the Warp shows in no way of closing these areas of. If it came down to it I say Nids attempting to eneter these areas will give Chaos Gods new pets to corrupt with "gifts" and may find a way to affect the Hive Mind Itself. A Norn Queen is suppose to be connected to the Hivemind right? If it was possess it would be a crippling blow to that Hive Mind. Im just stating the obvious tricks Chaos likes to play.


I think tyranids threaten the Chaos gods not because they're going to invade the eye of terror but because if they destroy all other living creatures there won't be any races around whose emotions feed the Chaos gods, in other words the Chaos gods will "starve"


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Not really its been established in the daemons codex that the chaos gods no longer need psychic energy from mortals (I think the exact word used was independent of their food source) not to mention unlike the other pathetic armies in warhammer chaos is interdimensional, and is worshiped in realities where no other army can even get to. (The funny thing is this isn't even speculation its more or less direct from the Daemons codex). Yet another funny fact is how their are a infinite about of daemons hear that INFINITE, not trillions or billions, but infinite. Not even mentioning you can't kill them period.



MontytheMighty said:


> I think tyranids threaten the Chaos gods not because they're going to invade the eye of terror but because if they destroy all other living creatures there won't be any races around whose emotions feed the Chaos gods, in other words the Chaos gods will "starve"


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## buckythefly (Mar 16, 2009)

I could see that happening yeah, but like others have said many codexes say that kinda thing, I wouldn't put too much stock in it. 

I'm personally hoping for some epic warboss comes to unite the Orks and like their codex says "Drown the Galaxy in a torrent of violence" because, people might stop making fun of my armies inability to shoot then.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> Not really its been established in the daemons codex that the chaos gods no longer need psychic energy from mortals (I think the exact word used was independent of their food source) not to mention unlike the other pathetic armies in warhammer chaos is interdimensional, and is worshiped in realities where no other army can even get to. (The funny thing is this isn't even speculation its more or less direct from the Daemons codex). Yet another funny fact is how their are a infinite about of daemons hear that INFINITE, not trillions or billions, but infinite. Not even mentioning you can't kill them period.


What he said. Nids pose no threat to the Chaos Gods in the Numbers game. 

On a side note too they can never starve Chaos cuase they can never enter the Eye or Maelstrom or other sever Warp Storms where Chaos still has a huge number of followers and the Nids have only consume a Galaxy of untold many where Chaos will still be worshipped. Nids cannot beat Chaos. No one can really but the Ctan.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> Not really its been established in the daemons codex that the chaos gods no longer need psychic energy from mortals (I think the exact word used was independent of their food source) not to mention unlike the other pathetic armies in warhammer chaos is interdimensional, and is worshiped in realities where no other army can even get to. (The funny thing is this isn't even speculation its more or less direct from the Daemons codex).


Could you post a quote from the Chaos Daemons Codex where it says this? (I started Uni a month ago and havn't brought any of my books with me!) Simply because I don't remember reading this in the codex! 

Cheers.


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

to my knowledge, chaos gods are not 'independent' of their food source but can manipulate it to produce more f the favored emotion, and daemon numbers would be finite because those emotions they feed on are also where new daemons are born, so there is a limit. also, the shadow of the warp is not from the absence of human life/emotion because that wouldn't screw up the astromican trying to contact isolated worlds. the shadow is white noise. all the psychic communication between bugs drounds out all other psychic signals, it's in the tyranid codex.


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## beebopa (Nov 6, 2009)

were getting a bit off topic now

so back to nids. i think that they will destroy the entire galaxy and then themselves.


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## dethdukk (Nov 9, 2009)

My take on the races and their possible chances of "winning".

Eldar: powerful, but they've been screwed since the fall anyways.

Dark eldar: same basic thing.

Orks: Wont win because they just cant get along. but they wont lose either... Unless the nids or crons win.

Tau: Multiple different choices for this one... Old ones reborn (high tech and gaining fast, extremely fast evolution rate). Another necron experiment. In either case, the only way they are getting knocked out of the running is if the nids/crons concentrate on them. nothing else (other than the imperium currently, but they are too busy anyways) has the power to put them down for good.

Imperium: totally, royally screwed. cept for that whole "all powerful emperor" thing. which means that soon as they are REALLY going to go down for good, the emperor wakes up, kicks enough ass to throw the game back into a stalemate, then is apparently too weak to continue and goes back to sleep. yay.

Tyranids: They would win except for 2 things: crons, and the emperor. something one of those 2 does is going to stop the nids. current semi-logical choices in my book: the crons close off the warp, thereby cutting the nid swarms off from their hive mind (they communicate using the warp). The emperor overpowers the hive mind, leaving the nids broken and scattered but still dangerous. The outsider (a cron ctan) is actually the one controlling the nids (extremely unlikely, as he is supposed to be in the dyson sphere)

Crons: my personal favorite for ultimate winner currently. They have literal gods, they are endless as long as they can be rebuilt, they can travel at speeds faster than any other race WITHOUT USING THE WARP! 
They have 2 ctan still to wake, and there is some evidence towards them controlling not only the adeptes mechanicus, but also the tau. 
If they manage to close off the warp, thats the ball game. Chaos cant attack, eldar have the webway but thats easily dealt with over time, no race can move anywhere because warp travel is gone. The crons can still move at super speed tho, and thus can kill everything in their own schedule.
And the nids dont bother them cause they are lifeless anyways.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

ironhammer said:


> to my knowledge, chaos gods are not 'independent' of their food source but can manipulate it to produce more f the favored emotion, and daemon numbers would be finite because those emotions they feed on are also where new daemons are born, so there is a limit. also, the shadow of the warp is not from the absence of human life/emotion because that wouldn't screw up the astromican trying to contact isolated worlds. the shadow is white noise. all the psychic communication between bugs drounds out all other psychic signals, it's in the tyranid codex.


Actually the Daemons are infinit in numbers, You can never kill them, thats why GKs find the only way to beat Daemons is to Banish them for Years at a time, or wait till the WarpStorm, Chaos Gate, GD/DP is dead, or whatever is summoning the Daemons and sustaining there presence to pass. However how much Daemons is ammassed depends on the Warp Storm raging or Chaos Gods power at the time.

As for the Shadow of the warp, there is NO fluff showing the Shadow closing Warp Space/Real Space overlap. 

I say the Chaos and C'Tan are the biggest threats to Nids.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Personnaly I think that Nids could be easily defeat by a specifically engineered bio-plague that if inserted into an important prescense in the Tyranid Armarda, for example Norm Queen then It could wipe out the whole fleet or at least slow down the production of Nids, so that enough Space Marine chapters and Imperial Guard massed to combat the existing forces. Of course it would become a battle between the Norm Queen`s countering the plague and then again the Imperium creating ever more viruses designed to counter them.


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## tadhg546 (Nov 19, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Also if the Nids are so powerful then how is a Single Hive Fleet was battered back by a single Craft World, or a single System called Macrage, or now Eternally locked in a battle with a few Ork planets in a stale mate?


i hope you realise that these are just individual fleets. would a spacemarine fleet be able to keep an entire system of orks in a stalemates. 
if the entire tyranid race came to play then just by sheer weight of numbers.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Hive Fleet Kracken wasn`t stopped by just the Craftworld Iyanden, one of its tendrils, was stopped at massive cost to the Eldar, twinned with another large defeat to the hands of the Imperium, Behemoth was only halted at Maccrage, which decimated the Ultramarines chapter and required massed help by the Imperial Navy and Hive Fleet Leviathan will eventually emerge victorious against the Orks, stronger that ever. Nids are the most powerful force in the Galaxy, with perhaps the exception of the whole of the Imperium, if it was brought to bear, immortal forces of the Dark Gods ( hence ''Immortal'' ) and the whole of the Ork hordes if united.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

bobss said:


> Hive Fleet Leviathan will eventually emerge victorious against the Orks, stronger that ever.


Thats quite an assumption. 

Both Orks and Tyranids highly benefit from wars of attrition, Orks grow in size and strength the more they fight (and the bigger the fight gets, more Orks mass in the area), and Tyranids benefit in the biological sense. 

Its in no way clear cut that the Tyranids will triumph over the Orks.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Ah yes, you have a point. But a cluster of Ork held worlds ( dont eat me! im not 100% sure on the exact size!) against perhaps the greatest and most tactical Hive fleet? but if the `Nids emerge victorious they will be alot stronger genetically, although the war with the Orks has given the Imperium enough time to gather its forces.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Its funny how everyone contemplates on how serious the Tyranid threat really is, are the current fleets the whole thing or just a fingernail? Why don't you wonder instead if the Chaos Gods were EVER serious about ANYTHING, even killing each other (since even though they have rallied under one banner when one of them became dominant, they never once finished him off)? 
In the Daemon Codex you can read about an Incursion where Khorne got a little pissed (I think it could have been worse) and personally cut open the skies above the planet and everyone but his own Daemons died in the resulting warp-powered asskickery. 
Now imagine if all four of them were dead-serious about ending the Tyranid threat. Or anyone for that matter. To my mind, the galaxy is at the mercy of the Chaos Gods. And no, thats not the Word Bearer in me talking. 

Or if you're very serious about facts, then all I can do is repeat what Luke said: Chaos has infinite amount of Daemons (infinite Bloodthirsters? Ouch.), while the 'nids have finite amount of resources and thus finite amount of monsters. End of story.

You know guys, just reading this thread is making me consider building a Chaos Tyranid army.  Undivided wouldn't make sense, so I guess it would be Slaaneshi (lictors with tentacles anyone? :grin.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

bobss said:


> Hive Fleet Kracken wasn`t stopped by just the Craftworld Iyanden, one of its tendrils, was stopped at massive cost to the Eldar, twinned with another large defeat to the hands of the Imperium, Behemoth was only halted at Maccrage, which decimated the Ultramarines chapter and required massed help by the Imperial Navy and Hive Fleet Leviathan will eventually emerge victorious against the Orks, stronger that ever. Nids are the most powerful force in the Galaxy, with perhaps the exception of the whole of the Imperium, if it was brought to bear, immortal forces of the Dark Gods ( hence ''Immortal'' ) and the whole of the Ork hordes if united.



Yes Behemoth was DESTROYED at Maccarage by 1 chapter. :victory:

Iyaden was 1 of 2 Major Battles that ended the Kraken threat. :grin:

There is NO fluff whatsoever that says Leviathan will emerge Victor over the Orks. NONE :ireful2:. All info syas is either the Orks will be the biggest baddest orks ever if they win, or the Nids will emerge even more deadly. k:


Soooo.... yeah Nids forces are exagerated to the highest. If they came in all at once then they would be defeated all at once. Why dont they come in all at once? I think the Hivemind knows better and is trying tatics cause Nids cannot do all or nothing. :so_happy:


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## primeministersinsiter (May 31, 2009)

They're a predator. They can;t eat everything or else they'll starve. They're not like the Necrons where they hate all life. They're not like the Orks where they love to fight. They are an animal. I think of them in more naturalistic terms.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

> Yes Behemoth was DESTROYED at Maccarage by 1 chapter.
> 
> Iyaden was 1 of 2 Major Battles that ended the Kraken threat.


I agree, its just looking at the picture of the size of the Hive Fleets in the 40k rulebook on the Nids section they look so massive that I cant simply sit down and go '' sure, both fleets were stopped by a handful of decisive battles and a few Ork held worlds will stop Leviathan''


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## vista101 (May 15, 2009)

Er... Aparentley the tyranids just just avoid the necron worlds, so wouldent they just consume the rest of the biological galixy and move on to the next one? Anyway I think that chaos daemons are an equal or better than the tyrsnids because there is almost infinate daemons in the warp and when they "die" they would just re appear in the warp and go back to nid killing. I assume the chaos gods/increadibly powerfull daemons would anialate the hive mind (or tzench would anyway)


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## scoutsnip3r (Jan 20, 2010)

bobss said:


> the whole of the Ork hordes if united.


Pssst!

If the Orks unite the whole Galaxy will fall! They wiill be unstoppable!


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## Shacklock (Dec 15, 2009)

Half of this discussion seems a little pointless to me, once the 'nids have devoured everything they easily can, Imperials, Eldar, Tau, Orks etc. they'll just drift out of the galaxy on its western side and move onto the next, no?

In regards to the whole scout fleet/all 'nids discussion personally I reckon that over the next thousand years or whatever more and more 'nids will keep pouring in from the eastern side of the galaxy until they literally just swarm through the entire galaxy on their way through.


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

In the new codex, the Leviathan hive fleet looks like a vast squid, tickling the underside of the galaxy. It's awesome!

Oh, and the new codex doesn't seem any more doom laden than the previous codex. In fact, it shows the Tyranid race as both fallible, and cunning. The Golgotha swarm in particular was a brill little bit of background.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

This is true of many races. Most races could overwhelm the galaxy if they wished

The Tyranids true numbers will overwhelm the galaxy. But the other races will stop them, Orks are too numerous and the Imperium will endure.

The Orks united will overwhelm the galaxy. But their nature prevents this.

The Necrons arisen will overwhelm the galaxy. The Eldar will stop them, and if not then the young races will. Hell if they dont then Chaos will.

Chaos united will overwhelm the galaxy. But Chaos inevitably turns in upon itself making this impossible.

But in the end the true victory will belong to Chaos. It is eternal and immortal, the Tyranids cannot hurt Chaos, the Orks cannot hurt it and the C'tan are too weak compared to the Chaos Gods.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Lord of the Night said:


> This is true of many races. Most races could overwhelm the galaxy if they wished
> 
> The Tyranids true numbers will overwhelm the galaxy. But the other races will stop them, Orks are too numerous and the Imperium will endure.
> 
> ...


I belive Chaos and Ctan are on the same page, Ctan Rule the real space and Chaos Gods rule the Warp space. Neither can cross over into the others domain, both feed on souls, and both are indestructable. The only difference netween the two is the Star Gods are trying to kepp Chaos out of thier Universe while Chaos is trying to spill over. Both will survive the Nid threat easily.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Also bear in mind the Necrons don't have any Biomass to consume. Once a Crypt World is scoured bare, the 'nids move on, and the Necrons can just arise again.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> I belive Chaos and Ctan are on the same page, Ctan Rule the real space and Chaos Gods rule the Warp space. Neither can cross over into the others domain, both feed on souls, and both are indestructable. The only difference netween the two is the Star Gods are trying to kepp Chaos out of thier Universe while Chaos is trying to spill over. Both will survive the Nid threat easily.


True but they wont stand for the others existence. The Chaos Gods and the C'tan want each other dead.

And the Necrons will want to stop the Tyranids just as much. Life can be replaced but planets would take trillions of years, the Necrons wont allow that.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Lord of the Night said:


> True but they wont stand for the others existence. The Chaos Gods and the C'tan want each other dead.
> 
> And the Necrons will want to stop the Tyranids just as much. Life can be replaced but planets would take trillions of years, the Necrons wont allow that.


Its nice to see someone who belives the Necrons wont stand idly by. How could they? If army ants keep building monds next to your house and get into your food, are you going to go to sleep? Hell No! you would fight back and eliminate those damn insects. Ctan are the same way. The Enslavers sort of force the Ctan to retreat as the problem would play itself out, but Nids dont leave nothing behind them. The Necs must fight.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Very true.

Also according to the new Tyranid Codex the honour, dubious honour, of being the first foes to ever face the Tyranids belongs to the Catachan Jungle Fighters who were stationed on Tyran. Just an interesting tidbit.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

The Dexes also claim things like Krakens and the Catachan Devil are Nids from scouting parties or some garbage like that?


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## Smokes (Nov 27, 2009)

In theory there are a lot more nids outside of the galaxy. Which if you think about it that makes sense. Where are all the hive fleets coming from? Also genestealers and lictors are always the scouts for the fleets but I am sure that the hive fleets have left behind stragglers after a battle that have found their way planet-side.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Speaking of nids vs chaos one would imagine that do to them being suseptable to mutation the hive mind would avoid them just like dog won't eat meat dipped in gasoline because it knows at some level it will gain nothing from eating it.


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## Hivemind Demeter (Nov 6, 2007)

This thread is only 5 days old, I guess I'm not totally stupid for posting in it. : )

I prefer to see the Tyranids destroy all of existence, but I see the Necrons winning in the long run.
I have a personal theory that the C'tan in exile (Whatever his name is) created the Tyranids to destroy all life. After all, what better way to destroy all life than to have a mass of hungering flesh? After the Nids are done destroying all of the universe or what not, the Necrons could just have them die off or stand still so they can mow them down.

I see the C'tan closing off Chaos in the future, and then it's honestly down to Nids/Necrons.
Necrons have gods on their side, and unless my hopes for a humongous universe sized army of nids on it's way come true, I don't see the Nids standing against the C'tan.

As for the catachan devil and ymgarl genestealers;
I personally think that means that Nids have already come through here before, and those are the remnants of their planet hopping from long long ago.
That would mean that either the Tyranids are just returning on their back and forth feeding, or that they ran into something terrible that destroyed them horribly to an extent that the Tyranids need to run back on their old path.
I would like to see a crazy new super race of what ever it may be running down the Tyranid hoard. 

Just my idea. :3


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Hivemind Demeter said:


> I have a personal theory that the C'tan in exile (Whatever his name is) created the Tyranids to destroy all life. After all, what better way to destroy all life than to have a mass of hungering flesh? After the Nids are done destroying all of the universe or what not, the Necrons could just have them die off or stand still so they can mow them down.


Why would the C'tan or the Necron want to destroy all life in the galaxy? They went into hibernation specifically because of the Enslaver invasion, which significantly reduced the galaxy's population. I'd say the Necron want the races to survive in a weakened state so that they might better feed their souls to the C'tan.



> I see the C'tan closing off Chaos in the future, and then it's honestly down to Nids/Necrons.


You really see the devs eliminating the Space Marines, Eldar, Tau, and Chaos to have a showdown between two races, one of which the fans have a long-standing dislike of? Or are you speaking from a purely fluff standpoint? If it's the latter, we'll never know; the canon of WH40K seems to move at ... well, the speed of fluff. I doubt the status quo will ever significantly change. It'd anger too many fans.


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## Hivemind Demeter (Nov 6, 2007)

K3k3000 said:


> Why would the C'tan or the Necron want to destroy all life in the galaxy? They went into hibernation specifically because of the Enslaver invasion, which significantly reduced the galaxy's population. I'd say the Necron want the races to survive in a weakened state so that they might better feed their souls to the C'tan.
> 
> 
> You really see the devs eliminating the Space Marines, Eldar, Tau, and Chaos to have a showdown between two races, one of which the fans have a long-standing dislike of? Or are you speaking from a purely fluff standpoint? If it's the latter, we'll never know; the canon of WH40K seems to move at ... well, the speed of fluff. I doubt the status quo will ever significantly change. It'd anger too many fans.


I admit that I am rather iffy on Necron fluff, so scratch some of that.
From what I understood, they hate all life and want it dead or something to that end.

Regardless; I meant purely in fluff. I know that GW will NEVER let their cash cow go down.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I think the Necron's goals will be to wipe out any form of resistance or any threats to their existence (Imperial Guard, Alien armies, etc.) and leave the rest of the defenseless members for the Ctan to feed off of.


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## Harlequinn Farsight (Feb 27, 2010)

you know everyone thinks cause theres lots of them there be more behind that but what if the current tyranids are the ones left just food for thought though


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

Well, since the codex shows the full extent of Leviathan, and the little tendrils we're seen are just the forward fronds of a much larger mass, coming upwards.

Even if these tyranids are the only ones, they are enough!


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## warsmith7752 (Sep 12, 2009)

i wonder if anyone has thought about the fact that you cant actually *kill* a deamon merely banish it into the realm of chaos until it is re summoned so for that reason i think its the tyranids who should be worrying about the 4 gods of chaos not the other way around. as for the imperiumwhy doesnt it just kill the tyranids when they are spaceborne because as far as i know the tyranids have the worst ships out of every army (plus they could never storm terra). the only way the tyranids have 100 percent posibility of winning is that they win every battle they take part in and so for that is not what the are doing i mean theyre only real advantage are numbers.


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## polynike (Aug 23, 2008)

You do get a strong sense of dooooooooooom with the nids. I quite like the way the fluff is written. Im not a player just a fan of the genre and the 5th ed Nids Codex does certainly give the impression of an Imperium about to be Greatly Devoured. The deadliness and hopelessnes of the struggle comes across perfectly as well as the creepy first contacts and empty blood soaked hulks that are so reminiscent of early Alien movies.

Are there arny stories of contacts between Chaos and nids though?


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

> Tyranid Codex - tyranids will die of aids.


 Fixed it for ya.

On a serious note - every codex will have something mentioned that could be interpreted as "this army will win!" so that we, in our small fanboy worlds, can believe that our codex is the true codex.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

polynike said:


> Are there arny stories of contacts between Chaos and nids though?


The Daemonhunters Codex gives the example of a Chaos corrupted/infested Hive Ship.


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## nivik (Mar 16, 2010)

what i think is that eventualy severaly races will be destroyed (probalby ork, chaos, necron,) and the remaining will form some kind of alliance (tau SM, IG, eldar) and drive back the tyranids from there galixy, for a time at least, though evenutaly one will break of the 2


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I wish people that post on this thread would come to the realization that chaos can not be destroyed outright maybe if the what remains of the necrons really wanted to mobilize in force again they could seal of the major tears in real space, but as for chaos every being out and out defeated it would take something grandeur then even the Tyranids to do so like some existence ending event.


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