# Konrad Curze Vs Corax



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

This is a multi faceted battle between the two primarchs, consisting of several scenarios each with a different emphasis.

*Note: For all of these scenarios this is Konrad Curze post of Unremembered Empire, thus he has his precognitive spidey sense as well as his turning into a shadow power. Konrad Curze is also not suicidal, and will be managing his legion effectively*

Scenario 1
Konrad Curze and Corax are each released into an unknown city, they are both tasked with killing the other primarch. This is Konrad Curze post of "Unremembered Empire", thus he has his "precognitive spidey-sense".

Scenario 2
Both Konrad Curze and Corax are inside a football field, they are both to fight to the death

Scenario 3
Instead of the Lion with the Dark Angels battling Curze in their isolated sector war it is Corax and the Raven Guard, which legion wins the war? (Corax does not get the Deus Ex Machina that the Lion received)

Scenario 4
Konrad Curze is tasked with killing the primarch of the Blood Angels, he has his full legion to accomplish this. Corax is tasked with killing the primarch of the World Eaters primarch, he has his full legion to accomplish this. Which primarch is successful, and or are both primarchs successful?

Scenario 5
Konrad Curze and Angron versus Sanguinus and Corax in a fight to the death.

Scenario 6
The Night Lords legion with that of the World Eaters engage versus the Blood Angels Legion and the Raven Guard. The fight is to see which team can eliminate the other team, the war takes place in the sector that the Night Lords fought the Dark Angels.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

I really don't understand the fascination with Konrad vs. Corax, and honestly I see many threads wasting time debating slightly different variations of the same question. Just let them fight and be done with it


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

emporershand89 said:


> I really don't understand the fascination with Konrad vs. Corax, and honestly I see many threads wasting time debating slightly different variations of the same question. Just let them fight and be done with it


Fascinating, tell me more.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Just for the sake of clarity, since you've only gone to mention at what point we are looking at Night Haunter, are we to assume that the Corax for these is post _Deliverance Lost_ and has come to terms with stymieing the traitors rather than outright defeating them?



Lux said:


> Scenario 1
> Konrad Curze and Corax are each released into an unknown city, they are both tasked with killing the other primarch. This is Konrad Curze post of "Unremembered Empire", thus he has his "precognitive spidey-sense".


I think this one is rather even, because while Night Haunter may be rather good at setting up a battlefield to suit his purposes Corax has excelled in fighting guerrilla warfare his entire life.



Lux said:


> Scenario 2
> Both Konrad Curze and Corax are inside a football field, they are both to fight to the death


Night Haunter, assuming there is no escape and the two must fight. Corax did not believe he could defeat Night Haunter on the killing fields of Istvaan, nothing has really changed since that.



Lux said:


> Scenario 3
> Instead of the Lion with the Dark Angels battling Curze in their isolated sector war it is Corax and the Raven Guard, which legion wins the war? (Corax does not get the Deus Ex Machina that the Lion received)


Assuming this is post Istvaan, then the Night Lords would win. They outnumber the Raven Guard in legionaries and ships, they can bring overwhelming force against the Raven Guard ina lmost all engagements.

Not exactly the fairest of scenarios to be honest.



Lux said:


> Scenario 4
> Konrad Curze is tasked with killing the primarch of the Blood Angels, he has his full legion to accomplish this. Corax is tasked with killing the primarch of the World Eaters primarch, he has his full legion to accomplish this. Which primarch is successful, and or are both primarchs successful?


I think Corax has a better chance of being successful, if only because the World Eaters would be easier to manipulate than the Blood Angels. Ultimately I do not think that Night Haunter would be successful in taking out the lord of the Blood Angels.



Lux said:


> Scenario 5
> Konrad Curze and Angron versus Sanguinus and Corax in a fight to the death.


I think Corax and Sanguinius would defeat Angron and Night Haunter. As before, Angron would be easier to manipulate and Sanguinius is often considered amongst the best of the fighters amongst the primarchs.



Lux said:


> Scenario 6
> The Night Lords legion with that of the World Eaters engage versus the Blood Angels Legion and the Raven Guard. The fight is to see which team can eliminate the other team, the war takes place in the sector that the Night Lords fought the Dark Angels.


Again, Night Lords and World Eaters lose largely for the same reason as in the other scenario's. The ability to manipulate the World Eaters would cause them to take more losses than they would likely cause and both legions general inability to work together would likely be a hindrance. I can't imagine the World Eaters always showing complete restraint if the Night Lords got in their way.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Thank you for your response, and just to clarify I meant Corax post of Itsvaan.

However, I forgot to add that for scenario 3 Corax would get his full region pre-Istvaan (80k or so was its size).

I do disagree with the analysis that the World Eaters would be easy to manipulate, I think the Blood Angels are just as easily manipulated due to their innate aggression coupled with their tendency to give into their blood lust. 

Horus along with Lorgar both postulated that their only hope of defeating Sanguinus in combat was with Angron (this was when Horus was still human, and not a living avatar of the chaos gods).


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Lux said:


> However, I forgot to add that for scenario 3 Corax would get his full region pre-Istvaan (80k or so was its size).


Alright, with that in mind I believe the Raven Guard would come out victorious. As a whole their ships seemed better equipped when it came to stealth, giving them an advantage in being able to set up traps.

Both legions are fairly flexible, good at acting on the spot, but the Night Lords leadership has always appeared far more fractured than that of the Raven Guard.



Lux said:


> I do disagree with the analysis that the World Eaters would be easy to manipulate, I think the Blood Angels are just as easily manipulated due to their innate aggression coupled with their tendency to give into their blood lust.


The difference is that this generally tends to apply to a much smaller number within the Blood Angels at a given time whereas the butchers nails effects the entire World Eaters and was often the cause of them abandoning tactics and suffering greater losses than necessary. It was also how Russ was able to defeat Angron during the Night of the Wolf (though he lost the duel, Russ's Space Wolves held off a numerically superior foe and could have removed their leader.)



Lux said:


> Horus along with Lorgar both postulated that their only hope of defeating Sanguinus in combat was with Angron (this was when Horus was still human, and not a living avatar of the chaos gods).


Yes, this is true, but I believe that was more on one on one terms. Your scenario's aren't talking about that, its not Sanguinius vs Angron its Sanguinius and another vs Angron and another. To which I do not believe either loyalist primarch would engage Angron first.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Hmm I see your point in that the overall leadership of team loyalists could be the swaying factor in legion vs legion warfare for scenario 6 (mostly due to the World Eaters dragging the Night Lords down).

However, scenario 5 is a two team death match between the traitors and loyalist. This scenario I see the traitors winning, as Angron as well as Curze seem two of the best fighters out of the primarchs. Angron due to his martial ability augmented by the nails, and Curze due to his (as of unremembered empire) active precognition.

The one I am most undecided on is scenario 3, only because the way the novels described the war between the Night Lords and the Dark angels made it sound as though the Night Lords were increasingly winning. Particularly that some high ranked DA officers noted the Lion's composure fracturing due to his inability to defeat the Night Lords. Savage Weapons goes on to describe that for every world the Dark Angels took, the Night Lords took one back from them. That for every victory the Dark Angels attained, they were dealt an equal number of horrendous losses. 

It just seems like many people underestimate the effectiveness of the Night Lords as a legion, they stalemated and arguably were defeating the Dark Angels in a legion versus legion war. I just feel that Corax's main strength which is stealth would be greatly nullified due to Curze being a master of it too, thus it would come down to frontal war with one another. The Night Lords are rumored to be at 130k while the RG is around 80k, I don't know if the RG will be able to cover a 50k difference through superiority of skill (arguable).

What do you think?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

darkreever said:


> It was also how Russ was able to defeat Angron during the Night of the Wolf (though he lost the duel, Russ's Space Wolves held off a numerically superior foe and could have removed their leader.)


I find this claim pretty suspect. Russ' wolves didn't hold off the the WE, they are specifically stated to have been driven back (baring those who returned to help Russ). Also, if you're going to give credit to the Wolves for removing the WE leader you should give the WE equal credit, since Angron could've killed Russ.



> To which I do not believe either loyalist primarch would engage Angron first.


Why do they get to choose? Is Angron just going to stand around while Sanguinious and Corax beat up on Night Haunter?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The Night Lords were not arguably winning the Thramas Crusade at all. It was a statement in every single way.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

MEQinc said:


> I find this claim pretty suspect. Russ' wolves didn't hold off the the WE, they are specifically stated to have been driven back (baring those who returned to help Russ). Also, if you're going to give credit to the Wolves for removing the WE leader you should give the WE equal credit, since Angron could've killed Russ.


If memory serves (which it usually does) Leman Russ tried to capture Angron while Angron tried to kill him while his Space Wolves worked their way onto surrounding Angron while loosing more Space Marines than the World Eaters.



MEQinc said:


> Why do they get to choose? Is Angron just going to stand around while Sanguinious and Corax beat up on Night Haunter?


That was actually quite funny, now I'm imagining Sanguinius and Corax beating up Hauler while Angron stands in the background making threatening postures like a baddie in a Bruce Lee-movie.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Corax wasn't scared of facing Curze, the only Primarch he said he couldn't imagine beating was Angron. Corax fled the battle because A) he'd been fighting from the onset of the battle and Curze was fresh and B) He still had Lorgar to deal with and to take both of them would of cost him his own life and that of his legion which he wasn't willing to sacrifice.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Corax wasn't scared of facing Curze, the only Primarch he said he couldn't imagine beating was Angron. Corax fled the battle because A) he'd been fighting from the onset of the battle and Curze was fresh and B) He still had Lorgar to deal with and to take both of them would of cost him his own life and that of his legion which he wasn't willing to sacrifice.


Merely conjecture proposed by Corax to assuage his own wounded ego from running from Curze, the fact of the matter is Corax was terrified to face Curze and run ran from him. The bottom line is Corax saw that Curze was far stronger than him when he forcefully, and effortlessly lifted Corax's straining lightning claw with one hand. Corax was fearful for his life which caused him to run, and in hindsight he hated himself for being weaker than Curze thus he created psychological justification for why he ran.

Corax was weak as well as tired, and he was unable to escape Curze's grasp. Curze could have killed Corax in that moment, and there would have been nothing that Corax could have done to stop it. Corax had lost his whip, Curze crushed Corax's lightning claw, and Curze could have stabbed Coraxz with his other free hand. The only reason Corax escaped is because he burned the entirety of his remaining fuel in his jump pack to give him the inertia to escape Curze's overwhelming strength.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I somehow thought Primarches didn't fear anything, but I can be wrong. Though I love reading how Corax now is a Ciaphas Cain-like being, that could actually be a good story when I think about it.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Lux said:


> Merely conjecture proposed by Corax to assuage his own wounded ego from running from Curze, the fact of the matter is Corax was terrified to face Curze and run ran from him. The bottom line is Corax saw that Curze was far stronger than him when he forcefully, and effortlessly lifted Corax's straining lightning claw with one hand. Corax was fearful for his life which caused him to run, and in hindsight he hated himself for being weaker than Curze thus he created psychological justification for why he ran.
> 
> Corax was weak as well as tired, and he was unable to escape Curze's grasp. Curze could have killed Corax in that moment, and there would have been nothing that Corax could have done to stop it. Corax had lost his whip, Curze crushed Corax's lightning claw, and Curze could have stabbed Coraxz with his other free hand. The only reason Corax escaped is because he burned the entirety of his remaining fuel in his jump pack to give him the inertia to escape Curze's overwhelming strength.


And then just like that. I'm out again.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Angel of Blood said:


> And then just like that. I'm out again.


For no good reason :crazy: it tends to end that way when Lux write something here sooner rather than later.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> And then just like that. I'm out again.


It can be hard to argue against sound logic, I understand you may leave.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Lux said:


> It can be hard to argue against sound logic, I understand you may leave.


Yes it's your "sound logic" that is the reason why I, personally, no longer bother to post in this sub forum. Why bother using page references to back yourself up after all.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Jacobite said:


> Yes it's your "sound logic" that is the reason why I, personally, no longer bother to post in this sub forum. Why bother using page references to back yourself up after all.


Oh come now, this is good practice for when you encounter these types of people in real life.


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## Stig'sPrimarchCousin (Sep 29, 2011)

Ok I'll bite.



Lux said:


> the fact of the matter is Corax was terrified to face Curze and run ran from him.


False.



Lux said:


> The bottom line is Corax saw that Curze was far stronger than him when he forcefully, and effortlessly lifted Corax's straining lightning claw with one hand.


Again false. Far stronger? Please. He WAS strained, the reason he has a 'calm' face during this scene is to make it seem that he's not. It plays right into the whole 'psychological warfare/instill fear' thing he goes for. 



Lux said:


> Corax was fearful for his life which caused him to run


Again not true. He fled because he was heading to the areas of the battle which were most fierce (as stated by the enemy themselves) and to assist his men in escaping, he cared about keeping his legion alive.



Lux said:


> in hindsight he hated himself for being weaker than Curze thus he created psychological justification for why he ran.


No, he hated himself for letting Curze's parlor tricks get under his skin and for not staying and denying the enemy two commanders. 



Lux said:


> Corax was tired


Fixed.



Lux said:


> he was unable to escape Curze's grasp.


And yet he did just that.



Lux said:


> Curze could have killed Corax in that moment, and there would have been nothing that Corax could have done to stop it. Corax had lost his whip, Curze crushed Corax's lightning claw, and Curze could have stabbed Coraxz with his other free hand.


He could have punched Curze in the face before he had a chance OR stopped his free claw with his other free hand(since only one was directed at Lorgar). 

Have a nice day sir.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I'm on a trip, so I don't have my books handy, but doesn't it say in _Deliverence Lost_ why Corax fled Curze?

It was because Corax saw a dark reflection of what he could have been if he had not been raised by the wise intellectuals on his homeworld. What a monster Curze was and how easily Corax may have become his equal in brutality if circumstances were just a little bit different.


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## acaoshes (Nov 20, 2013)

That was my reading of Deliverance Lost also.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Stig'sPrimarchCousin said:


> Ok I'll bite.
> Again false. Far stronger? Please. He WAS strained, the reason he has a 'calm' face during this scene is to make it seem that he's not. It plays right into the whole 'psychological warfare/instill fear' thing he goes for.


I am stating facts of what was stated in the book, while you are assigning your own emotional assumptions. Corax had one lightning claw, his other hand had a lightning whip which was destroyed during the fight. Corax attempted to kill Lorgar with his remaining functioning hand which had a lightning claw, he was stopped by Curze who then defiantly lifted Corax's straining claw upward away from lorgar. Here is the exact quote from the book

"Corax looked to meet eyes as black as his, in a face as pale as his own. His claw strained against a mirroring weapon, both sets of blades scraping as they ground against each other. One claw seeking to fall and kill, the other unyielding in its rising defence. Where the Raven Guard Primarch’s features were fierce with effort, the other face wore a grin. It was a smile both taut and mirthless -- a dead man’s smile, once his lips surrendered to rigor mortis. It was the Night Haunter. Corax sought to wrench his claw free, but Curze’s second gauntlet closed on his brother’s wrist, so that Corax would be unable to fly away and escape his fate. Curze looked upon his prostrate brother and ordered him to rise from his knees, disgusted at his cowardice. Corax was not idle as this exchange took place. He fired his flight pack, burning his fuel reserves to escape Curze’s grip. The Raven Lord’s claw ripped free, and Corax soared skyward, carried on jet thrust away from Curze’s rising laughter. "




Stig'sPrimarchCousin said:


> Again not true. He fled because he was heading to the areas of the battle which were most fierce (as stated by the enemy themselves) and to assist his men in escaping, he cared about keeping his legion alive.


From what was demonstrated in the book Curze was far stronger than Corax, Curze defiantly lifted Corax's straining claw that was striking downwards. Corax had the advantage of inertia and leverage, yet Curze still overpowered him without showing a single sign of strain. At that moment in time Corax was scared for his life, Curze could have killed Corax then and there. Corax had a single functioning hand, Curze had two functioning lightning claws. Curze trapped Corax and could have stabbed him at any moment, the only reason Corax escaped is because he burned out his jump pack to run away.




Stig'sPrimarchCousin said:


> No, he hated himself for letting Curze's parlor tricks get under his skin and for not staying and denying the enemy two commanders.


Corax is a proud individual like most of the primarchs, and believed he was superior to most others. Corax had a wounded ego after his encounter with Curze, he ran for his life and he knew it. The very fact that Corax believed he could have stayed, killed both Curze and Lorgar in his condition was lunacy on his part. Corax was tired, injured, his breast plate had been shattered, and he only had one functioning hand/weapon. 

Corax was assuaging his own wounded ego by telling himself he could have won if he tried, he was bandaging his wounded pride. 




Stig'sPrimarchCousin said:


> And yet he did just that.


Corax with his own strength, inertia, and power was unable to escape Curze's grasp. It states this in the book itself "Corax sought to wrench his claw free, but Curze’s second gauntlet closed on his brother’s wrist, so that Corax would be unable to fly away and escape his fate". The only reason Corax was able to escape was because he burned out the remaining fuel reserves of his jump pack in order to gain the necessary inertia to break free. 

Corax required the external inertia, and power of his jump pack being burned out to escape Curze's one handed grasp upon him. That demonstrates how vastly stronger Curze was then Corax, in a comparison of strength. 




Stig'sPrimarchCousin said:


> He could have punched Curze in the face before he had a chance OR stopped his free claw with his other free hand(since only one was directed at Lorgar).


Did you even read the book? Corax's lightning whip was destroyed, his breast plate was shattered, and he had one functioning hand left, which was used to wield his lightning claw. Corax was unaware Curze was even there, and then Corax struck downward with all his strength to strike Lorgar dead. 

Curze intercepted Corax's only functioning hand/lighting claw, Curze then grabbed Corax by the wrist and made sure he couldn't escape or maneuver. Corax was unable to do anything on his own, it was only by igniting his remaining fuel reserves that he was able to escape. 

Corax had no free hand to punch curze in the face, he only had one functioning hand to begin with, and then curze grabbed Corax by the wrist with his free hand. 



Stig'sPrimarchCousin said:


> Have a nice day sir.


Much like Corax, please do assuage your ego since you clearly lost this battle.


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## Stig'sPrimarchCousin (Sep 29, 2011)

Lux said:


> I am stating facts of what was stated in the book, while you are assigning your own emotional assumptions.


It is a widely known theme regarding Curze's character that he excels at instilling fear in his enemies. Emotions? what are those?



Lux said:


> Corax had one lightning claw, his other hand had a lightning whip which was destroyed during the fight. Corax attempted to kill Lorgar with his remaining functioning hand which had a lightning claw


Yes that's all nice and dandy but it doesn't mean he can't use his bare fist to punch him and break his nose  



Lux said:


> "Corax looked to meet...snip...It was a smile both *taut* and mirthless..."


I'm sure you know the meaning of this word, which also helps prove my earlier point that it's an act.




Lux said:


> From what was demonstrated in the book Curze was far stronger than Corax, Curze defiantly lifted Corax's straining claw that was striking downwards. Corax had the advantage of inertia and leverage, yet Curze still overpowered him without showing a single sign of strain. At that moment in time Corax was scared for his life, Curze could have killed Corax then and there. Corax had a single functioning hand, Curze had two functioning lightning claws. Curze trapped Corax and could have stabbed him at any moment, the only reason Corax escaped is because he burned out his jump pack to run away.


Well seeing as Corax is spent from the fighting and suffering from several primarch inflicted wounds I suppose at that moment in time he would be weaker than a fresh Curze, point conceded. That still doesn't mean he was scared. It was tactically a dumb move to stay and fight two primarchs when wounded and having his equipment so damaged. On top of this he would want to make sure his legion can escape from the slaughter. 




Lux said:


> Corax with his own strength, inertia, and power was unable to escape Curze's grasp. It states this in the book itself "Corax sought to wrench his claw free, but Curze’s second gauntlet closed on his brother’s wrist, so that Corax would be unable to fly away and escape his fate". The only reason Corax was able to escape was because he burned out the remaining fuel reserves of his jump pack in order to gain the necessary inertia to break free.


He chose to use his jump pack to escape. Again, he could have used his free hand (which used to wield the whip as you say) and punch him. A punch from a primarch is nothing to scoff at. Just because he didn't do it doesn't mean he couldn't.




Lux said:


> Did you even read the book? Corax's lightning whip was destroyed, his breast plate was shattered, and he had one functioning hand left, which was used to wield his lightning claw. Corax was unaware Curze was even there, and then Corax struck downward with all his strength to strike Lorgar dead.


Like I've been saying, if he's whip was destroyed he could discard it and use his fist. Secondly, if his breast plate was damaged if you add that to having damaged/fewer weapons it would be tactically stupid to stay and fight a fresh enemy who's armed/armoured and batshit crazy and on top of that still have to deal with Lorgar (who could still prove to be a threat). 



Lux said:


> Much like Corax, please do assuage your ego since you clearly lost this battle.


While I'd normally be flattered at being likened to a demigod I'm against the spreading of false facts. Corax lost no battle, and neither did I, although I'm sure in your lunacy driven mind it may not look thay way.

Again, have a nice day.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

He didn't use the whip till _A Raven's Flight_, he was wielding a per of claws during the actual battle I believe.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

darkreever said:


> Night Haunter, assuming there is no escape and the two must fight. Corax did not believe he could defeat Night Haunter on the killing fields of Istvaan, nothing has really changed since that.


I think that's a questionable claim. 

1. Corax probably didn't want to risk getting back-stabbed or tripped up by a recovered Lorgar 
2. Corax had lost one of his lightning claws
3. I believe Lorgar had cracked open Corax's breastplate with Illuminarium 
4. Curze was fresh. Corax was not. He had just slaughtered dozens of Gal Vorbak and fought a duel with another primarch 

I think the biggest factors are Lorgar's presence (potentially intervening in a fight between Curze and Corax) and Corax's broken weapon (he only has lightning claws on one hand). This is a set-up that would highly favour Curze. Corax wisely withdrew.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Actually as of the audio novel, I'm fairly certain his whip was still functional. In the audio he uses it when fighting traitors that are hunting the Raven Guard down after the massacre. Not listened to it in a while, but I'm sure that's the case. Doesn't break till later.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

He's not using the whip in the main battle he's using his pair of lightning claws, one which gets destroyed during the battle and I'm assuming the second he puts aside or discards so he can use the whip and heavy bolter in A Raven's Flight.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> He's not using the whip in the main battle he's using his pair of lightning claws, one which gets destroyed during the battle and I'm assuming the second he puts aside or discards so he can use the whip and heavy bolter in A Raven's Flight.


I could be misremembering...but did Corax somehow craft the power whip after the destruction of his lightning claw


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

He doesn't use it during the massacre itself no, using his claws instead. But afterwards when they are hiding out in the hills after the massacre, he is using it. It is damaged at some point, but he repairs it in Deliverance Lost.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

MontytheMighty said:


> I could be misremembering...but did Corax somehow craft the power whip after the destruction of his lightning claw


The whip was made on Kiavahr so no I don't believe so, I think it was just at his waist through the major battle.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

It seems that he did not have the whip during his fight (or did not use it) with Lorgar, however his left hand was still destroyed during that fight and rendered useless (his claw and gauntlet). 

The point still stands that Corax was entirely inaccurate in believing that if he had stayed, he would have killed Curze as well as Lorgar. Corax had a massive ego in that he believed he was superior to all primarchs in combat ability except for a few, namely Horus and Angron. 

Corax in his wounded condition would have soundly died at the hands of Curze, and his belief that he would have killed him attests to the fact that Corax's opinion was his way of assuaging his wounded pride from running. Corax only had one functioning hand which was neutralized by Curze's lightning claw, and Corax had a shattered breast plate as well as a broken nose. Curze demonstrated very clearly that he was far stronger than Corax during that battle, particularly when he effortlessly lifted Corax's entire weight/inertia of his downward strike skyward.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I'm crying with laughter. 

Seriously? Time fter time, we do the same old. Let us just do a test. Mods, Instantly lock every thread by Lux, delete his replies, and just generally, make it feel unwelcome. Once it was funny, now, it is just getting fucking tiresome.

Jez's argument was that he brought in new content. That was 3 years ago. Enough is now enough.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Vaz, if you don't like it, don't open threads started by Lux.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I read it more for other peoples reactions. Like i said, they're hilarious. Kinda sure many people site feel the same.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Vaz every post I have put in this thread is sincere, logical, and to the point. I have posted several times now why I feel that Corax was biased, and for the most part blinded by his own wounded pride.

His statements in deliverance lost were not in any way accurate to the situation he was in with the Night Haunter, and thus highlight how inaccurate his opinion is of others.

Corax believed in hindsight that he could have stayed, and killed the Night Haunter along with Lorgar at the cost of his own life. The circumstances as well as the evidence of the novels demonstrates that Corax was extremely tired, wounded, and his wargear including his armor was extremely compromised. Corax's left hand was destoryed, his breast plate was shattered, and his nose had been broken to a great degree. 

Curze caught Corax's only functioning hand that was in a downward strike, Curze then without a single sign of strain lifted Corax's hand skyward in defiance. This highlights the vast difference in strength between the two at that time, Curze without strain overpowered Corax even though the later had the advantage of inertia and leverage. 

Vaz is your hate for me blinding you to the fact that what I am posting is entirely logical?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Hate suggests i care.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> The whip was made on Kiavahr so no I don't believe so, I think it was just at his waist through the major battle.


Odd...I honestly think the claw and whip combo is deadlier than the two claws combo 

The whip has some incredible reach, it's fast (like a whip), and it cuts through marines like a hot katana through butter


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Personally I would have loved to see Corax fight Angron

On another note I wonder if Corax's invisibility doesn't effect other primarchs, and I mention this for several reasons. The first is that he didn't use it on Lorgar, the second is that he didn't use it on Curze, and the third is that he was terrified of fighting Angron. The prior mentioned examples causes me to question if it doesn't work on the mind of a primarch, since it is stated that Corax doesn't become tangibly invisible rather he just clouds the minds of those seeing him. 

Additionally I would have loved to see Angron fight Vulkan, if only the cannon blasts didn't seperate them. Also I find it interesting that Vulkan was ready to fight Angron when the later challenged Vulkan, and was confident in stride towards him.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Lux said:


> On another note I wonder if Corax's invisibility doesn't effect other primarchs,


As it is primarily a stealthy ability maybe he can't use it while fighting. Physical contact would make it very hard for his powers to make someone _not_ see him, especially his brothers. They are all powerful psykers in their own right as well, latent or otherwise, so maybe they are just too strong to fall for it.

Where does it state that he is terrified of fighting Angron?


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> As it is primarily a stealthy ability maybe he can't use it while fighting. Physical contact would make it very hard for his powers to make someone _not_ see him, especially his brothers. They are all powerful psykers in their own right as well, latent or otherwise, so maybe they are just too strong to fall for it.
> 
> Where does it state that he is terrified of fighting Angron?


In ravens flight he never states that he is terrified of fighting Angron, rather he states that he believes a fight with Angron will almost surely result in his death. Corax states that in his opinion the only primarchs that could potentially defeat Angron in a fight are Horus, and maybe Sang.

In my opinion I think Corax's opinion as well as perception of the other primarchs is very skewed, and biased as most of the primarchs seem to be. Nearly all of the primarchs view their own self in the top three best fighters, and or their legion views them this way. A handful of the primarchs outright perceive themselves as the number one best among the primarchs, this only goes to show how inflated their egos are.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Lux said:


> and the third is that he was terrified of fighting Angron.





Lux said:


> In ravens flight he never states that he is terrified of fighting Angron,


Ah, so that's just you reading between the lines again.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Ah, so that's just you reading between the lines again.


It is very easy to see that Corax was terrified of facing Angron himself, he stated very clearly that he was afraid to fight Angron because he knew he would die.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Lux said:


> It is very easy to see that Corax was terrified of facing Angron himself, he stated very clearly that he was afraid to fight Angron because he knew he would die.


It is not very easy to see. He did not state he was afraid to fight him. He just knew he couldn't win. He may have known it would be a lost cause, but I don't think primarchs are capable of fear.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> It is not very easy to see. He did not state he was afraid to fight him. He just knew he couldn't win. He may have known it would be a lost cause, but I don't think primarchs are capable of fear.


That is not true, in the Dark King audio book Curze says "Guilliman was wrong when he said that primarchs know no fear, they do and it is lightning in the marrow of the bones."

Dorn as well as Corax both admit they fear Curze for different reasons, primarchs do feel fear as do astartes.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

What Dorn or Corax feel about Curze has no bearing on what Corax feels about Angron. You are taking quotes from one source to prove a point in a completely different story. The fact is he did not state he was afraid, he just admitted he'd lose. Honesty does not denote fear. If you infer something from this, that does not make it fact, as much as you'd like it to.

As for the Curze quote about fear, it was a statement of opinion by Curze, the most psychologically unstable of all the primarchs, not a statement of fact as part of the narrative.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> What Dorn or Corax feel about Curze has no bearing on what Corax feels about Angron. You are taking quotes from one source to prove a point in a completely different story. The fact is he did not state he was afraid, he just admitted he'd lose. Honesty does not denote fear. If you infer something from this, that does not make it fact, as much as you'd like it to.
> 
> As for the Curze quote about fear, it was a statement of opinion by Curze, the most psychologically unstable of all the primarchs, not a statement of fact as part of the narrative.


Curze was the primarch that was the most in touch with reality, and he was the only one who saw the truth of the reality they all lived in. Every other primarch was blind as well as disillusioned with the concept of hope, salvation, and bringing peace.

Curze's opinion holds the most weight when it comes to understanding fear, reality, and the truth of the warhammer 40k universe.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Lux said:


> Curze's opinion holds the most weight when it comes to understanding fear, reality, and the truth of the warhammer 40k universe.


In your mind yes, in other peoples (who don't have a raging hard on for him) his opinion doesn't have as much.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Jacobite said:


> In your mind yes, in other peoples (who don't have a raging hard on for him) his opinion doesn't have as much.


Well said that man. It must have been the late hour and few beers that made me jump into a Lux thread about Curze. In the cold light of day I realise what a fruitless, pointless thing that is to do.


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## N1GHT H4UNT3R (Mar 18, 2015)

I think Curze would come out on top in a 1v1 because he is very capable of killing a primarch both physically and mentally (ask Vulkan: oh wait, you can't!) It's very close to call, but Curze would sneak up on Corax and maul him.


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## Doom wolf (Oct 10, 2014)

N1GHT H4UNT3R said:


> I think Curze would come out on top in a 1v1 because he is very capable of killing a primarch both physically and mentally (ask Vulkan: oh wait, you can't!) It's very close to call, but Curze would sneak up on Corax and maul him.


I don't think so.

It's quite a tough call. If Corax can have the initiative and sneak Curze, then Curze is dead. But if Curze can play on the moral of Corax, he can have a fair shot on Corax and kill him.

But on Istvaan, Curze had a gold opening, and Corax flew away and escape him anyway.

In every fight he fought, Curze never fought fairly. His most impressive feat was when he lured Guilliman and the Lion and almost win. Yet, his main attack don't resided in his fighting skill but in a trap he setted _before_ the fight.

The problem is, Corax doesn't fight fairly. They are like Gork and Mork : the god of brutal cunning against the god of cunning brutality.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

No, don't revive this. Please, for the love of all that is holy, let it die. Just let it die. :cray:


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Doom wolf said:


> I don't think so.
> 
> It's quite a tough call. If Corax can have the initiative and sneak Curze, then Curze is dead. But if Curze can play on the moral of Corax, he can have a fair shot on Corax and kill him.
> 
> ...


The question then becomes which of them is the god of brutal cunning, and which of them is the god of cunning brutality?


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