# Space Marines: Legion of the Damned?



## Dead4XxX

Hello fellow heretics, i didn't know where else to put this so im going to put it here until maybe on of the moderators decides it should be somewhere else...

Anyway. After playing a hell of a lot of 40k games, 75% of the players ive fought are space marines. And NONE of them include Legion of the Damned.

I was baffled by it, so i went diving into my own Codex: Space Marines i bought when it came out (even though i play Blood Angels) and read through there rules. Turns out, they have the Slow and Purposeful and the other rule which lets them re-roll deep strike outcomes. Not too shabby.

The points cost is ridiculous though. If i get a 10 man squad, im basically getting like a 260+ (?) point tactical squad that can reroll deep strike (not that amazing since i've never gotten a mishap) with S&P w/ Relentless, meaning that they always count as moving through difficult BUT can fire ALL weapons, Move and assault in the same turn, meaning i can move upto 6 inches, fire my heavy weapons and assault.

Another thing is, they come with Assault 'Nades, which i think would mean that they dont suffer the initiative loss when they assault? seeing as he rulebook defines "cover" as difficult terrain? i dunno.

So can anybody please clarify why people dont take them at all? if someone actualy uses them, ca ou please post the advantages or uses of using them? also they get 3+ invulnerable save...that's pretty god damn awesome too.

Lastly, the reason i ask this is that pretty soon i will launch my big "DIY Fluffy Space Marine Chapter" project. Golden Daemon painting standard and all, and i wouldnt mind making some LotD for it


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## Tim/Steve

3+ inv save is awesome... but basically worthless, who would bother to shoot AP3 weapons at them?
Just fire basic infantry weapons at them and they are exactly as strong as a marine... but at 26pts instead of 17pts (more then 50% more)... get into them in combat and other then your power weapons/rending they are just like a sternguard unit.. without the cool ammo types.

The other reason is that they have to DS, and if they DS and shoot they will be in a little cluster, at which times blast/template weaponry is gonna shread them armour save or no... deathspitters, frag missiles hellhounds, whirlwinds etc are gonna have a field day with them


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## effigy22

Plus another valid point i would like to make... people dont want to buy the old metal ones, they are waiting for the new LoD models to arrive.


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## refractory

i play them. i like them personally because i can tie a demon prince or abbadon (sp) up in close combat, and they last for ever with that 3+ inv. also there have veteran stats so comparing them to a normal tac squad is a little rough.

although i do agree that either they should have access to special ammunition or cheaper special weapons.


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## Tim/Steve

I didnt... in shooting and being shot at they are, in combat i compared them to sternguard


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## Dead4XxX

thank you for all the replys so far. I have had alot of trouble with having infantry units that can atleast stay the wrath of the dreaded Ap1 weapons, so i might look into them sooner or later.


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## Katie Drake

Remember gents, only _army lists_ go in the army list section. Other things, like unit-specific topics belong here in Tactics.

Katie D


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## LordWaffles

Katie Drake said:


> Remember gents, _read the section you post in_
> Katie D


Fixed that.

Also you don't see them because they die like marines for little extra benefit at 26 points a guy. woo.

Mostly the same reason you don't see tsons.


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## Dead4XxX

but Tsons are cool 

and yeah i apologise for the wrong post, but i didn't really think a question about a specific unit / model would be classified as "tactics" but yeah, honest mistake xD and i always read what section i post in 

Lord Waffles, i dont see Marines having 3+ invulnerable save, and from what i have seen from my experiences, 3+ invulnerable save is the best invulnerable for anything that is just a standard infantry model, be it as is elites. If anyone knows any infantry with a 2+ invulnerable save let me know.

In Addition, Theoretically, couldn't the LotD be used as a rapid response AT unit? seeing as you can deep strike it and re-roll the result if you wish, giving an increase chance of landing it where you want it, and since it can move, shoot and assault with *all* weapons, even if i do land it off target, next turn if any survive (more likely all) from the mass firepower (bringing tension off my CC units, letting them advance unscathed) i can still move forward, shoot with my AT weapons and charge and attempt a powerfist attack on a vehicle (considering if LotD Sergeants can take PF)


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## LordWaffles

Dead4XxX said:


> but Tsons are cool


Only where GW can't see D:



Dead4XxX said:


> Lord Waffles, i dont see Marines having 3+ invulnerable save, and from what i have seen from my experiences, 3+ invulnerable save is the best invulnerable for anything that is just a standard infantry model, be it as is elites. If anyone knows any infantry with a 2+ invulnerable save let me know.


Eldar have a rerollable 3+ invul. Also Ghazghull can have a 2+ invul.

The problem isn't them having a bad invulnerable save. It's the fact that every one out of three wounds will kill them. The invulnerable can't save them from small arms fire and that's what gets most marines today, what with cover saves being so abundant.



Dead4XxX said:


> In Addition, Theoretically, couldn't the LotD be used as a rapid response AT unit? seeing as you can deep strike it and re-roll the result if you wish, giving an increase chance of landing it where you want it, and since it can move, shoot and assault with *all* weapons, even if i do land it off target, next turn if any survive (more likely all) from the mass firepower (bringing tension off my CC units, letting them advance unscathed) i can still move forward, shoot with my AT weapons and charge and attempt a powerfist attack on a vehicle (considering if LotD Sergeants can take PF)


Since the drop pod "Land anywhere it's legal unless you go off the table" marines don't have much of an issue landing correctly. And...I think the answer you're looking for is not in how to use them, it's that they just aren't any good at that task. Take for example obliterators.

They cost 3 and a half times less than your entire squad, but can make back their points in a single plas/las cannon/multimelta shot. Your entire squad would have to kill a fourth of my army in a thousand point game.

Also, let's take into the theoryhammer box the unit fighting a higher tier army, like orks or templar.

Neither army cares. At all. About your assault troops. Sure you can get the charge and have a staggering three attacks a piece at s4 with a 3+. That wouldn't be horrible, except for the fact that orks get that base, and templar reroll two attacks a piece each when they just stand around.

Let's say you deepstrike the squad onto a prime target, which...would probably be a unit of boyz out of cover. You rapidly fire all ten of your bolters at them...
20 shots 15 hit 7 dead(one on nob).

Now out of a thirty man squad that has to hurt. But than their turn rolls around. And they assault as orks often do, because your 3+ invul doesn't make you survive axes and slug guns any better.
They fire all the pistols. They shoot 23, hit on seven, and you take four wounds. You lose a 26 point model.

Orks charge, you attack first. (Do LaTD get two attacks each?)
You swing 18 times, hit nine, and wound four. Ork merrily removes four models, not bothering with saves.

His remaining eighteen boyz swing.
72 swings 36 hits 18 wounds 6 dead

And 156 points just bamfs itself off the board.

Nob swings 4 times, hits twice, you'd guesstimatingly lose one more

Hypothetically you're left with the sarge, and the heavy weapons/special weapons guy. You're at leadership six, and you've lost combat. Do you feel lucky?

Now to reiterate. Space marine armies don't -have- any scary CC units besides terminators(And my BT ones beat them in anyway). And I won't bother firing anti tank at 3+ invul save shmoes. I can only guess you might mean vanguard, who suck, or jump troopers, who will be saving me time by marching forward to be slaughtered.

The problem with them is the SAME problem as Tsons. Lots of nifty gimmicks, but you pay through the nose for each.


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## rdlb

I have used a 5 man squad with flamer, heavy flamer, and powerfist in my games vs. Tau. They absolutely rule (most of the time) you can get risky with your deep strike placement since you have two rolls and the two templates ruin a firing line. 

This setup is something like 200 points, and can absorb a lot of fire. After you deep strike and do a lot of damage, the enemy will try to wipe you out so you can't roast them again, this means a whole turn of things not firing at anything else. So they don't last very long, like a lot of deepstrikers, but they have a seriously disruptive effect on the battleplan.

If you like to play with elements that can be risky to use, but really upset a battle plan and distract your enemy, then they are great, but if you steer clear of Orbital Bombardment, Landspeeders, and other high risk elements, they might not be for you, just my two cents


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## godzy

I was starting to think that relentless will enable them to assault on the turn they deep strike, and then I read the deep strike rules, and proven wrong.
but DS a few templates just where you need them is nice. or a melta gang. for a bit over 215, you'll get some hurting on a unit of your choice. there might be better thing out there, but fur fluf, they're great.


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## Mitchy

_If anyone knows any infantry with a 2+ invulnerable save let me know._

the dark eldar get a 2+ inval but if they fail it they lose the save.
......................................................................................................
_Space marine armies don't -have- any scary CC units besides terminators_

Yes they do, the Honour Guard kick butt against anything, as long as you attack first and you charged the enemy is an easy kill.


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## Necrosis

For the 2+ invulnerable save sisters can also do it but turning their armour save into a invulnerable save. So you will see a canoness or living saint with a 2+ invulnerable save.

As for Legion of the damned they also got killed by Inquisition pretty easily due to Psycannon, Psycannon bolts and Incinerators. which ignore invulnerable saves meaning they get no saves against it.


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## Dead4XxX

woah, seriously didnt know of those units with 2+ invul saves...thats what happens when i have to fight Space Marines like 90% of the time xD

And yes, to Godzy and rdib, i do agree with your points that they can be a good unit and they are terribly expensive, and for now i might just skip on using them until i can (ever?) get some more concrete tactics or unit-armaments to use them with


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## Vrykolas2k

Let's see... Eldar with a 3+ Invul... that would be the Autarch and Asurmen.
For the 4+, the Avatar, the Farseer, and Warlocks.
Not the whole army, as someone seems to be hinting.
For 2+, the Dark Eldar can give one (1) Shadow Field to an HQ unit. It goes away if the save is ever failed. 
Thousand Sons are harder to kill in practice than on paper, as are Legion of the Damned, so long as they're fighting mostly shooty stuff. And they're not exactly tissue in CC, either.
One of the hardest armies to beat, I find, is a Thousand Sons force. An army of 3+ Invul...
A squad of 3+ Invul is hard to kill, and for my Marines I'll be getting a squad as soon as I can find some.


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## Katie Drake

Vrykolas2k said:


> One of the hardest armies to beat, I find, is a Thousand Sons force. An army of 3+ Invul...
> A squad of 3+ Invul is hard to kill, and for my Marines I'll be getting a squad as soon as I can find some.


The best Invulnerable save any Tzeentch marked unit can get in the Chaos Space Marine Codex is 4+. Thousand Sons don't have 3+ Invulnerable saves, though they do have the usual power armor save as well.


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## Vrykolas2k

Katie Drake said:


> The best Invulnerable save any Tzeentch marked unit can get in the Chaos Space Marine Codex is 4+. Thousand Sons don't have 3+ Invulnerable saves, though they do have the usual power armor save as well.




My mistake.
They're still hard to kill either way, saving half the time.


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## LordWaffles

Mitchy said:


> Yes they do, the Honour Guard kick butt against anything, as long as you attack first and you charged the enemy is an easy kill.


Honestly I love seeing honor guard on the table. I think they're adorable with their expensive weaponry and low model count.

Oh you want to fight a real CC squad? That's fantastic. Eat rerolling lclaws followed by over nine thousand attacks that reroll to hit. Even with a 2+ you'll fail one out of six times and cost just as much as me.



Vrykolas2k said:


> Not the whole army, as someone seems to be hinting.(ELDRAAAAD)







Vrykolas2k said:


> Thousand Sons are harder to kill in practice than on paper, as are Legion of the Damned, so long as they're fighting mostly shooty stuff. And they're not exactly tissue in CC, either.


Actually it's pretty easy to kill them. Just make them take three saves and you've killed a 26 point model, as compared to making an ork take three saves and losing 18 points worth of models. 

And the problem is, all the real lists for competitive play(excusing guards as they havent been around long enough to see) are all assault oriented.(Orks, Lash, templar. Although I will give you that they do well against sisters).

What would you define as good in close combat? 3 attacks at ws/s 4? Saving on a 3+/4++

How about 4 attacks at WS/S/I 5, saving on a 3+?(This squad costs less too)




Vrykolas2k said:


> One of the hardest armies to beat, I find, is a Thousand Sons force. An army of 3+ Invul...
> A squad of 3+ Invul is hard to kill, and for my Marines I'll be getting a squad as soon as I can find some.


TSons are actually the admitted worst of the cult troops to choice. Even the most staunch TSon players have thrown in the towel as orks rampage all over, delighting as you pay points for a save you only use when the powerklaw comes calling, and for a bolter that scares only marines.


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## Someguy

You want an elite marine unit that can move and fire heavy weapons, has an invulnerable save, fights hard in cc and can deep strike?

You want terminators. You do not want legion of the damned.


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## Vrykolas2k

LordWaffles said:


> Honestly I love seeing honor guard on the table. I think they're adorable with their expensive weaponry and low model count.
> 
> Oh you want to fight a real CC squad? That's fantastic. Eat rerolling lclaws followed by over nine thousand attacks that reroll to hit. Even with a 2+ you'll fail one out of six times and cost just as much as me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually it's pretty easy to kill them. Just make them take three saves and you've killed a 26 point model, as compared to making an ork take three saves and losing 18 points worth of models.
> 
> And the problem is, all the real lists for competitive play(excusing guards as they havent been around long enough to see) are all assault oriented.(Orks, Lash, templar. Although I will give you that they do well against sisters).
> 
> What would you define as good in close combat? 3 attacks at ws/s 4? Saving on a 3+/4++
> 
> How about 4 attacks at WS/S/I 5, saving on a 3+?(This squad costs less too)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TSons are actually the admitted worst of the cult troops to choice. Even the most staunch TSon players have thrown in the towel as orks rampage all over, delighting as you pay points for a save you only use when the powerklaw comes calling, and for a bolter that scares only marines.




Hmmm...
So Eldrad = the entire army.
Thanx for telling me, I'll go buy one now. Since up until now I haven't even been using a Farseer. Now I'll be sure to win all the time.
:victory:
And if Orks are such a great army for you, does that mean there'll be less whining about other armies, particularly Eldar?
:clapping:
Just let people play with the army they like, and have fun with your own.


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## refractory

Someguy said:


> You want an elite marine unit that can move and fire heavy weapons, has an invulnerable save, fights hard in cc and can deep strike?
> 
> You want terminators. You do not want legion of the damned.


why? aside from the whole squad having a power weapon/ fist there no better. personally I've had way better luck with the lotd.


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## Katie Drake

refractory said:


> why? aside from the whole squad having a power weapon/ fist there no better. personally I've had way better luck with the lotd.


Because Terminators are far more resilient to small arms fire and excel in close combat where the Legion of the Damned die just like Marines to most weapons and are no better than a unit of Sternguard in combat.

It's not to say that the Legion of the Damned suck - just that Terminators may be able to fill their role better.


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## rdlb

I played the LOD against eldar last week, and everyone knows how horrible Howling Banshees are with all their power weapon attacks. The two flamer templates cooked the banshees so that when they charged, they didn't have enough attacks to overcome the 3+ invulnerable. All regular marines and vets would have gotten no save!!! So many armies have power weapons and the like that the invulnerable save is g-g-g-g-g-great!!


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## Johnathanswift

I have to agree with the general assesment, I've tried running melta-las-powerfist, plas-plas-powerfist, mlauncher-flamer-powerfist, and none have seemed to do much

Incidentaly, does it seem to people after reading the fluff, the their bolter were supposed to have something special, rending or somesuch. they are described as "tearing through concrete" etc. When I read the fluff I honestly expected rending bolters.


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## Tim/Steve

rdlb- thats the perfect use for them, so yes its not surprising that they excelled.

LotD are great against armies that inflict few, armour piercing attacks. They really suck versus armies that rely on many normal attacks (like orcs, or especially nids).

Problem is that very few armies have nothing that pumps out attacks... in rdlb's example what if it was the banshes but some scorpions that had gone into the LotD- they would have slaughtered the whole unit while taking few casualities.

This tactital fragility wouldnt matter if the LotD were fast enough to pick who they were attacking but since they are slow and purposeful and not fleet they are lucky to go 11-12" a turn (with charge) instead of some enemies lucky 17-18"
- sending banshee's into LotD was a huge tactical error on the eldar players side, which cannot be relied on to help out your units.


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## LordWaffles

Vrykolas2k said:


> Hmmm...
> So Eldrad = the entire army.
> Thanx for telling me, I'll go buy one now. Since up until now I haven't even been using a Farseer. Now I'll be sure to win all the time.
> :victory:


It'd probably be a step in the right direction, I've yet to see eldar do anything but die without one. 



Vrykolas2k said:


> And if Orks are such a great army for you, does that mean there'll be less whining about other armies, particularly Eldar?
> :clapping:
> Just let people play with the army they like, and have fun with your own.


Orks and eldar(seer councils) are top tier armies. People whine about them because they statistically outrank middle tier armies.

And he kind of asked for an opinion on a specialized unit. I gave him what I knew about it. They don't strike me as very good for the reasons listed previously...I'm not really sure blindly agreeing that they're awesomely amazing is very productive toward making a stronger list.


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## rdlb

Your right about that mistake Tim/Steve. But a traumatic event, like Deep Striking Flamers, can induce emotional, reckless responses in your enemy, especially if they had high hopes for the unit you toast.

But I don't play the stone cold GT crowd. We play for fun and the Banshees were upset that they got cooked so they lashed out. Just lucky there was no Phoenix Lord.

I agree with your point though that the LotD has a very specific use that they are really good at.


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## Vrykolas2k

LordWaffles said:


> It'd probably be a step in the right direction, I've yet to see eldar do anything but die without one.
> 
> 
> 
> Orks and eldar(seer councils) are top tier armies. People whine about them because they statistically outrank middle tier armies.
> 
> And he kind of asked for an opinion on a specialized unit. I gave him what I knew about it. They don't strike me as very good for the reasons listed previously...I'm not really sure blindly agreeing that they're awesomely amazing is very productive toward making a stronger list.



Strange, I bought my Eldar army at the time when the new codex came out, and do very well without a Farseer. I will admit they were a pain to fight against in 3rd, but not unbeatable. And it isn't like any Craftworld can play Eldrad, and thank the gods, there's no "counts as" in the Eldar codex. Personally, I play my own Craftworld, rather than Ulthwe.
Then again, I'm a long-time Dark Eldar player, and the Eldar have many more toys... I just find a psycher to be superfluous.
At any rate, as far as Legion of the Damned, I've seen them used effectively, so I plan on getting a squad when the models are released. Not only because I've watched games where they are shown to be an effective unit, but because I like the fluff and colour scheme.


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## nivik

i love the legions, there awesome, i think that in small games the are very useless, but in larger games much more. take an apocalypse vs a 1000 point. in a 1000 point game, they take up way to much points and u might not get them till late, when they wont be usefull, but in an Apocalypse, the points arnt really that big of a deal, and cause points arnt a big deal, everyone uses heavy ap weapons, makeing there specter ability very usfull. in a 1000 point game u drop a 10 man squad down in late game, and your army could already be half dead (due to the fact there 260 points down) and 10 guys ant going to due much, now take an apocalypse, if u have say 5 or six squads (10 man) of them, droping in randomly, the chances of u getting some sooner rather then later, is much higher. if they were 2 drop later in an Apocalypse battle, they would still be usefull, because at that point in the game all the weak infinity probably been blown up by titans, and all the super guys, like ork stompas, have been vaporised by repeated las-cannon fire, leaving elites to fight it out, in which case invulnerability saves would be really good, and slow and purposeful means u could drop them away from CC but still be able to rain hell on them.


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## Orochi

Legion of the damned were GWs way of making sure marines didnt suffer the same problem as necrons and CSM.

Most people, when hearing/expecting they will be playing marines, will stock up on missile launchers, plasma weapons and power weapons, etc. Think howling banshees, Obliterators, executioners and other anti-MEQ units. 

So, GW gave the marine boys a unit with an incredible inv save (3+ is fucking good). This meant units such as those mentioned and the Thousand sons (designed to kill marines) lost alot of effectiveness.

So once again, GW used fluff to make sure their poster boys could avoid harm in a slight way. 

I do like LoTD, but they take up an elites slot, ehich is better used on Sternguard, Termis or dreadnaughts. All of whom do a better job at just about everything. As normally whatever requires you to take a 3+ inv save is probably going to be immune/resistant to simple bolters.


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