# Invictarus Suzerains and Zardu Layak



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I didn't see that anyone had posted these yet - I know we've seen the pictures of them at an event, but they're now up on the FW website.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/INVICTARUS_SUZERAIN_SQUAD.html










http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/ZARDU_LAYAK.html










The Invictarii look really cool and I would love some to use as Honour Guard, but £60 for 5 dudes? Even for Forge World I think that's too much to ask.


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

normally i would praise FW for such stunning models,and those ultramarines are really nice, but £60 for five marine sized minis ??? when you can buy 5 terminator sized minis from the heresy range for £14 less? or five marines with jump packs from the heresy series for £23 less?

Ultramarines are arguably one of the most popular chapters, FW could easily pick up some cross over sales for 40k with this release for people wanting some honour guard, but have priced this set in the serious collectors range only. 

ultimately you have as much cash to spend on luxury items like this as life allows you to have, how you spend it and how you justify it is up to you, but what really narks me about GW and FW is the shear inconsistency of pricing similar products. 

I simply cant figure out how they come up with prices for products, i looked at the Warlord titan, its an expensive bit of kit, but considering its size, level of detail, number of components, materials, time it took to design and how absolutely awesome of a model it is i would say the prices is fair. I say its expensive because at my level of income i couldnt purchase it without some serious consideration.

£60 for models isnt expensive relatively speaking, but because i can get arguably the same number of models, from the same range, made by the same sculptors,in the same material for getting on to half the cost, i start to feel like im been taken for a ride because i like ultramarines.

now i know nobody is forcing me to buy them(and im not) but by the same token they are also not tempting me either,not because i cant afford them, but because they have been priced at a premium with comparable minis without any justification.


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

I'm with Bits on this one. £60 for five marines, as nice looking as they are, is beyond ludicrous. It's outright extortion and I would never even consider paying that, not even if I had money to burn.

Zardu Layek is a gorgeous figure, but it's those Blade Slaves that are the best in my book. They look deformed, grotesque and just plain wrong; exactly how I always pictured truly Chaos-deformed Space Marines. They have an almost Lovecraftian degredation to them.


LotN


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Love the Smurfs, especially the detail on the shields like the extended bolter mags, and the chaos character is one of the best yet. Not too bothered about the possessed marines though. 

However, as said, the price for the smurfs is fucking stupid. If I wanted them badly enough I'd wait until they became available elsewhere.


----------



## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Recasters are going to make more money on these kits than FW is.


----------



## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> ...what really narks me about GW and FW is the shear inconsistency of pricing similar products.
> 
> I simply cant figure out how they come up with prices for products...


Bits, I agree this is a problem across the board. I compare the GW plastic space marine captain (£18) and say the Khorne berzerker box (£23 or £1.92 per model) and shake my head. These guys are £15 each. 

I'm sure this isn't haphazard. I would bet the GW has some business analyst(s) or actuary(ies) running the numbers based on how many of these units their customer base can be expected to buy.

I believe the captain is stupidly expensive because they expect fewer people to balk requiring only 1 per army. They have priced it based on what they think market demand will bare. 

I'm also curious what customer looks at these and says,"I must have those!" and immediately shells out the cash without much heed to the price.


----------



## Ravion (Nov 3, 2010)

venomlust said:


> Recasters are going to make more money on these kits than FW is.


Oh so true ....perhaps FW and GW should take a lesson from the recasters when it comes to selling models.


----------



## SonofVulkan (Apr 14, 2010)

£60 for basically Stormcast Eternal Liberators with a backpack, a bolter stuck on the back of the shield and an axe instead of a hammer.

(Look at me sayin' Marines look like Stormcast instead of the other way around. :grin


----------



## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I do like the ultramarine dudes - particularly the head, but the bolter-shield is just stupid.

Chaos models are nothing special. Surprised they got past concept drawings.


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

venomlust said:


> Recasters are going to make more money on these kits than FW is.


you make a very good point, i cant condone using re-casters, i think its downright foolish and seriously risky , but its stuff like this that encourages people to look away from the official source, plus its like the left hand doesnt know what the right hand is doing, GW have just gone to great lengths to attract people into fantasy by taking the unprecedented step of offering free rules and army lists etc and then in the same breath some mug at forgeworld decided to slap a £60 price tag on these minis, if this price is the direction future marine releases will take for heresy, then i doubt it will reach its conclusion.Which would be a serious shame


----------



## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> ...GW have just gone to great lengths to attract people into fantasy by taking the unprecedented step of offering free rules and army lists etc and then in the same breath some mug at forgeworld decided to slap a £60 price tag on these minis...


I wonder how separate their management staff is? I understand they're not the same, but do you (our anyone) have any idea if they coordinate pricing strategies, production runs, or release dates? 

Those would seem like things which the parent company might like to manage.


----------



## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> you make a very good point, i cant condone using re-casters, i think its downright foolish and seriously risky , but its stuff like this that encourages people to look away from the official source, plus its like the left hand doesnt know what the right hand is doing, GW have just gone to great lengths to attract people into fantasy by taking the unprecedented step of offering free rules and army lists etc and then in the same breath some mug at forgeworld decided to slap a £60 price tag on these minis, if this price is the direction future marine releases will take for heresy, then i doubt it will reach its conclusion.Which would be a serious shame


Maybe I just don't realize how many people buy directly from Forge World, but when Chinese prices are at least 50% cheaper and just as detailed I have a hard time seeing them in business for much longer. I imagine GW proper floats them, because in general the plastic kits are profitable and the Chinese resin usually can't compare in quality to the plastic kits. Even then, certain kits like Rhinos and Imperial Knights are being recast today with surprising quality. They're improving their methods all the time, and any flaws are typically accepted by people who prefer to spend about $40 U.S. on a knight.

I think most players out there will never buy from a recaster, but there are plenty who feel GW's prices are too high, they still want the minis, and they have an avenue through which they can be bought. Losing hundreds of thousands in revenue per year right now due to recasters, I guarantee that much. As recasters improve their molds/casting techniques I bet the problem will get much worse.


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

venomlust said:


> Maybe I just don't realize how many people buy directly from Forge World, but when Chinese prices are at least 50% cheaper and just as detailed I have a hard time seeing them in business for much longer. I imagine GW proper floats them, because in general the plastic kits are profitable and the Chinese resin usually can't compare in quality to the plastic kits. Even then, certain kits like Rhinos and Imperial Knights are being recast today with surprising quality. They're improving their methods all the time, and any flaws are typically accepted by people who prefer to spend about $40 U.S. on a knight.
> 
> I think most players out there will never buy from a recaster, but there are plenty who feel GW's prices are too high, they still want the minis, and they have an avenue through which they can be bought. Losing hundreds of thousands in revenue per year right now due to recasters, I guarantee that much. As recasters improve their molds/casting techniques I bet the problem will get much worse.



GWs and FWs customer base is quite varied, like i say i cant condone buying from recasters, but then again i cant really get my head around people who buy knock off dvds/cds or fake hand bags/clothes etc a fake is a fake at the end of the day. 

personaly i think its time for FW to drop resin, the best way to stop recasters or at least make fakes very evident, is to move everything to plastic. To be honest the heresy marine range really should have been plastic from the off, if they are able to do single blisters plastics for £8 and limited runs of some plastic character models and make a profit then there is no reason why they couldnt do the heresy stuff in plastic.


----------



## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> GWs and FWs customer base is quite varied, like i say i cant condone buying from recasters, but then again i cant really get my head around people who buy knock off dvds/cds or fake hand bags/clothes etc a fake is a fake at the end of the day.
> 
> personaly i think its time for FW to drop resin, the best way to stop recasters or at least make fakes very evident, is to move everything to plastic. To be honest the heresy marine range really should have been plastic from the off, if they are able to do single blisters plastics for £8 and limited runs of some plastic character models and make a profit then there is no reason why they couldnt do the heresy stuff in plastic.


A fake is a fake, but perhaps people don't need it to be genuine to be happy with it. So often name brand items are not particularly well manufactured, so the knock-off is either close enough in quality or appears that way, and name recognition is much of the appeal of that sort of thing anyway.

In the cast of miniatures, they're little toys. Even if the quality isn't perfect, unless someone is _really_ scrutinizing a model they won't know the difference. Allows people to buy at least twice as many little army men than they'd get legitimately. Of course, the fact that they're denying revenue to the company that pays people to create the toys they love so much in the first place doesn't dawn on them, but then again they may not be the type to care.

Separate from the recasting issue, these prices are really just batshit. Cheers to all the people out there who have the disposable income to spend 60 pounds on 5 figurines. I wish them continued good fortune, and I hope one day I'll achieve it too.


----------



## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

The Suzerain aren't bad - though the Bolter Shield thing looks pretty stupid -, the Chaos to me just seem generic. 

But the price? Hell no. I admit in buying more FW lately but that's because I've pretty much scrapped by GW armies, so it's freed up more money that I can by from FW, but even if I were an UM 30k player I wouldn't pay that. Not unless I'd know as an absolute fact I'd only ever need just those 5 men and even then I'd be leary. I'm just hoping that this isn't the start of a trend.


----------



## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

I can't believe folks are complaining about the price on those Ultramarine figures at 12 pounds each they are cheap. Considering that the Adeptus Mechanicus Tech-Priest Dominus sells for 25 pounds each that would make five of them in comparison a 125 pound unit.


----------



## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Maybe it's that they're _both_ obscenely expensive.


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> I can't believe folks are complaining about the price on those Ultramarine figures at 12 pounds each they are cheap. Considering that the Adeptus Mechanicus Tech-Priest Dominus sells for 25 pounds each that would make five of them in comparison a 125 pound unit.


dude, you really do pluck numbers out of the air at random, its £22 not £25,im not saying its any better but lets stick to the facts


----------



## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

bitsandkits said:


> dude, you really do pluck numbers out of the air at random, its £22 not £25,im not saying its any better but lets stick to the facts


 So I made a slight error, you ain't perfect either, otherwise you wouldn't be bitching about a 60 pound set that in FACT would cost 12 pounds per model.


----------



## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

Achaylus72 said:


> So I made a slight error, you ain't perfect either, otherwise you wouldn't be bitching about a 60 pound set that in FACT would cost 12 pounds per model.


It doesn't matter if it's £12 per model and comparing it to the GW Dominous isn't fair. That is a HQ for an army where at most you will only ever need two and even then 1 is totally fine. These, while probably only being a 5man min squad, yes you can only ever need the one purchase to field the minimum, but most likely you will will need two boxes to make it even usable and decent so your talking £120. You can pick up and decent tank for that much. These guys are essentially just Breachers which are £33. So you're pretty much paying another 30 for an axe and Ultramarine themed armour. In now way are they worth it. 

Also the Dominous is a rather unique looking model from GW, again these are just Marines. So yeah power to Bits for complaining.


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> So I made a slight error, you ain't perfect either, otherwise you wouldn't be bitching about a 60 pound set that in FACT would cost 12 pounds per model.


yeah, but i was bitching about like for like marine sets,from the same studio and the same material and same designers, not trying to compare single character model , in plastic, from a different studio for a different set of rules and with the wrong price, but yeah im not perfect, i am incredibly hansom though.


----------

