# Loyalist Terminators with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields



## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

OK, so it isn't often that I grip about something (snicker...) but these guys are my current annoying unit to fight against. I've tried certain things, the last being throw a few dozen MC's at them, but that damned 3+ Inv save has been kicking my tail. 

So for 40pts a piece, you get an Assault Terminator with a near godly save and one hell of a punch. There 2+ save prevents numbers from getting to them very well, and their 3+ save prevents big nastys from smoking them. They are also incredibly cost effective for what they do so can't be considered a huge point sink.

Granted, they are slow, but usually pack a Land Raider for quick access. And if you want to add insult to injury, throw in Lysander and now you have an uber assault terminator that grants everyone master crafted weapons. It's just plain sick.

Tieing them up doesn't seem to work very well considering they have a fair amount of attacks and will usually force a LD check either scattering their enemy unit at the time or force additional saves, further deluting larger squads. And again, you have to spend a fair amount of points on them to keep them busy (unless you go the 30ish squad size, which stands a chance of holding them long enough where they don't do anything). 

The only thing that could waltz through them would be Necrons and only in melee. You have the Warscythe, so Lords, Pariahs and C'tan, and only because they ignore al the saves, so can bypass their crazy saves and hit first so should be able to take most out before they get slammed back. But, that can't be it. 

Every unit has some sort of Achilies heel, and I just seem to be missing it. So I'm looking for ideas. How do you deel with these mind boggling malevolent monsterosities of mankind?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Lysander doesn't grant MC'd Weapons, it's Vulkan. Which is even worse, really, as he doesn't even have to join the unit.

The same thing that can take down Daemon Princes, Monstrous Creatures, and Hordes of Ork Boyz tends to work well for me. Bolters. Bog standard Bolters. Nothing fancy, just Bolters. Pop the Transport, and watch them slog it.

A standard set up for me is 3 Vindicators, and 4 Squads of Tactical Marines, with Plasma Cannons, and Flamers. The Plasma Cannons can provide the odd chuckle. Out of the 3 that I wound with the one blast, on average, then I kill 1. That's a good trade off.

Then there's the 8 Men with Bolters - 8 Bolter shots x4 = 32. 32 hitting on 3's is about 21 Hits. 21 Hits turns into 11 Wounds. On a 2+ Save, that's 2 kills. So with 4 squads, that's 6 Kills, not to mention 3 Str10 AP2 Templates. While the Chaos Marines (I assume you play by) don't have the Plasma Cannon, you do have Obliterators. Teleport a couple of them in, and you have 4 Plasma Shots in. If they choose to attack, then they're not going for the squishies. If they choose not to, then you get 4 Plasma Shots a turn.

Daemon Princes - Lash them stupid? Berserkers/Noise Marines - Chop/Shoot them up.

Just throw as much Middle Strength, High AP, High Shots weapons at them. Alternatively, if you can throw Thousands of High Strength, High AP, Inv. Ignoring, High Shot Weapons, then that works, but until that day, Obliterators and Lots of Attack Cult Troops work.


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## Underground Heretic (Aug 9, 2008)

I deal with them the way I deal with everything as Tau: I pop the Land Raider with my railguns and then marinade them with markerlit fire warriors. Their Achillies heal is that they are absolutely useless outside of CC. Standard Termies can be decent at shooting, but not assault termies. You have to, I believe the term is kite them. Keep your fire mobile and just string them along until you kill them. Dire Avengers, Crisis Suits, and Standard Termies. Besides kiting them, just force them to make saves. For all purposes, they are marines that can't shoot you but save on twos. Don't waste your AP 2 or 1 shots on them. Just make them roll dice, it may take a lot, but it may only take one roll to kill a terminator.

EDIT: Vaz, you ninja.


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## spike12225 (Aug 21, 2008)

lol yes make us roll dice in statistics thats right but in luck not so much i've been on th recieving end of 30man shooter squad had 20 something wounds saved the lot lol

watched another game 1500pts of imperial guard lascannons battle cannons etc 10 termies lost 1

but your right trick to beat us is make us roll saves just don't be surprised if you put your whole army into our 1 unit and theres still 50% or more standing when the dust settles


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## Johnny Genocide (Mar 4, 2008)

They're slow, just pop their raider and then run from then while harassing them with fire. eventually they'll fall. I don't know about you guys, but I've never had a problem with them.


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Lysander doesn't grant MC'd Weapons, it's Vulkan. Which is even worse, really, as he doesn't even have to join the unit.


Right... I got mixed up since the last I played against them both of them we're joined to the squad (I mean, it's not like they have several pages of special characters to keep track of... ) . Strangely, My Fex died, my guard died, but my Tyrant lived enough to get some Wolves in on my side. 

I was hoping for something beyond the old; "Make em slow and shoot lots of s**t at them!" tactic, but it seems that might just be it. :dunno:


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## koppo (Oct 29, 2007)

Has anybody tried throwing Ork Burna Boyz at them? a maxed out unit of 15 boyz PW attacks would provide the attack spam with the bonus of removing the 2+ save.

Although for 225 points, it may be a bit of a waste when they have to get in to HtH and you could get 37ish shoota boyz laying down 70 shots a turn.

Or a maxed out unit of lootas?


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## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

Equal points of lighting claw terminators will beat them. Not without losses tho. 

If the lightning claw termies charge they will always win, and even if they get charged, its a close fight.

The storm shield is way too cheap for what you get. It should be a 3+ save vrs melee only.

Standard bolters will do the job, but point for point, almost nothing will beat these guys.


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## Belthazor Aurellius (Jan 16, 2009)

CSM vs Marines? if the termies are in a land raider, take it out, make them walk and then focus your attention on wiping the rest of their force out. Without a land raider, those terminators will have to walk for some time. The only exception to this is if they have a librarian that teleports them forward, and then they stand just as much risk of losing a few good men in the warp walk as they would take from a good barrage of lascannons... Well, maybe not, but they don't get invul saves for warp attacks, now do they?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Pauly55 said:


> The storm shield is way too cheap for what you get. It should be a 3+ save vrs melee only.


In which case the Shield is pointless, which made them not worth taking in the past. They aren't invincible. They aren't broken. And 200 pts, for something that can be avoided, is only 5 Models, is pretty expensive, 2+/3++ Save or no.

They used to be 4+ vs. Melee only. And why should they then be taken? For extra protection in Close Combat? It's the walking there that got them killed.

And hiding behind a huge whopping shield with a Force Field Generator is going to be better than just walking forward.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

I think the best suggestion so far has been to pop the Land Raider and just use Lash of Submission to keep them away. They're not fast, and you can probably push them away from you for most of the game, giving you ample time to blow them to bits.


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## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

Vaz said:


> In which case the Shield is pointless, which made them not worth taking in the past. They aren't invincible. They aren't broken. And 200 pts, for something that can be avoided, is only 5 Models, is pretty expensive, 2+/3++ Save or no.
> 
> They used to be 4+ vs. Melee only. And why should they then be taken? For extra protection in Close Combat? It's the walking there that got them killed.


I would agree with you, but the key is, they are hard to avoid. If they couldn't take a transport, they wouldn't be terribly worrisome. As it stands they can be transported in one of the toughest vehicles out there, and assault out of it. If your assault terminators are foot slogging places to assault things, you need your head examined. Everyone says you can just destroy the land raider like its the easiest thing in the world, which just isn't the case. Unless you are tau, these things are much much tougher to destroy at long ranges.

Not to mention they can deep strike, and do whatever. These guys are no more easily avoided than normal terminators or any other kind of infantry assault unit.

as for your second point, yes, storm shields used to be 4+ vs melee only(and vrs one opponent only too iirc). If they buffed that to 3+, I garuntee people would still field them against Nidzilla, and similar lists which is where their niche is. Currently these guys are filling niches that they aren't supposed to fill.


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## spike12225 (Aug 21, 2008)

there a tactical dreadnought there niche is walking into the heaviest fire the enemy has and throttling it.
now a lascannon can take out a dreadnought so they decided lets give them an energy field to help em out a bit more at there job.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Pauly55 said:


> Not to mention they can deep strike, and do whatever. These guys are no more easily avoided than normal terminators or any other kind of infantry assault unit.


I disagree. Sure, Land Raiders are tough vehicles, that's a given. But you don't need to destroy it to stop it from getting to you with its cargo - immobilization works just as well. Hell, even a Stunned result is good enough if the Marines were silly enough to forget extra armor.

Every army has ways of dealing with a Land Raider. I agree, for most armies dealing with a Raider from a distance isn't easy, but who says you need to be shooting it from 36" plus away to deal with it?

Crisis suits with Fusion Blasters, Imperial Guard Special Weapon Squads, tiny Veteran Assault Squads, Tactical Squads in Drop Pods, Dominions in a Immolator, Fire Dragons in a Falcon/Serpent, hell, even Wyches with haywire grenades in a Raider, all of these units are more than capable of blowing a Land Raider sky high with a minimum of effort. Even Daemons can pick up a Land Raider and throw it across the table with any one of their many Monstrous Creatures. The only army I can think of that would truly face a nigh-insurmountable challenge in taking out a Land Raider would be Tyranids.


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Crisis suits with Fusion Blasters, Imperial Guard Special Weapon Squads, tiny Veteran Assault Squads, Tactical Squads in Drop Pods, Dominions in a Immolator, Fire Dragons in a Falcon/Serpent, hell, even Wyches with haywire grenades in a Raider, all of these units are more than capable of blowing a Land Raider sky high with a minimum of effort. Even Daemons can pick up a Land Raider and throw it across the table with any one of their many Monstrous Creatures. The only army I can think of that would truly face a nigh-insurmountable challenge in taking out a Land Raider would be Tyranids.


Yes, because Tyranids have no MC's to speak of that could eat the rolling sardine can. 

But with all your suggestions at close distance, you fall privy to the Terminators the next phase. Sure you can charge them, but then you're stuck with them. Range seems to be the better idea.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Revelations said:


> Yes, because Tyranids have no MC's to speak of that could eat the rolling sardine can.


It's not that Tyranids have no MCs capable of destroying a Land Raider, it's that most of them are painfully slow and even the one fast MC Tyranids can take (a Hive Tyrant with Wings) will struggle to blow up a Land Raider since his S isn't too high.



> But with all your suggestions at close distance, you fall privy to the Terminators the next phase. Sure you can charge them, but then you're stuck with them. Range seems to be the better idea.


Yeah, so? I doubt the Tau army will care too much if a couple Crisis Suits go down to take out that behemoth, or what have you. The idea is to use a unit that is tactically expendable to get the job done.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Better making a bad decision that costs you a Mounstrous creature, if you can hold it in place, allowing you to hold those Objectives, or what have you. It's a case of limiting Collateral, admittedly, but it's one of those Do-or-Die units, but usually, with the right tactics, is very much a do-er.


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## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

If close range firepower destroys the land raider, then it has done its job by moving its payload close to the enemy. This is why I specified that anyone except Tau with long range AP 1 weapons has a really hard time preventing it from getting to where it wants to be. 

Vaz: You hit the nail on the head. TH/SS terminator units are very much a do-er. They literally cannot fail in doing damage to the enemy. Simple fact is that even if someone does manage to shoot them down before they get to combat, they have _easily_ soaked up 1500 - 2000 points of enemy shooting. You know this to be true since you ran the math on your tac squads a few posts back. All this to destroy 200 points of loyalists. These are simply too hard to kill for what they cost, and have no weakness (with the exception of the C'tan and other ignore invulnerable save stuff people have mentioned).

Shoot, even by delaying them with the Lash, which is a very clever idea, you are essentially tar pitting your deamon prince since all he can do is sit there and use that power.


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

I'm not a fan of the Lash idea; a Lashing Prince has better things to do, like make his points back destroying other squads. Keeping a squad away from him because they'd throttle him seems like a poor use of the Prince. Especially since he can't assault another unit if he does so. 

It seems so far the suggestions mimic the 4ed Flying Falcons issue; "Yep, they suck, you just have to throw lots at them and be lucky." If that's really it then I'll have to keep playing to see what works better than that. Most things have a weakness; and if their only one is their speed and lack of range, then that does indeed suck. 

But I've been giving food for my thoughts to much on.


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## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

Can you still have khorne terminators with lightning claws? those should work.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Bugger your Terminators. Cheaper, yes. But they still get their Invulnerable Save. You get more attacks for the same cost with Berserkers.


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## Johnathanswift (Sep 30, 2008)

The pop the LR idea works only when they are not acompanied by a libbie with Gate of Infinity, true they can't assault that turn and will take some losses, but after that if they've survived than whterver unit is within 12'' is dead. To kill them, vindicators and plasma seem to work, but that's about it, personaly I use a five man suicide squad of sternguard with five combi-plasma in a razorback, 10 plasma shots usualy kill 3 

EDIT: actualy mathammer dictates 1.85 termies, but somehow I do better


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## Fugital357 (Jan 19, 2009)

Also, keep in mind that any large squad of AT is a point sink. So, while they're hard to kill, the rest of his army might be easier to kill, given that the point he spent on them could have gone else-where. 

And with the "Run!" rules, I wouldn't call them slow per say, but they are easy enough to dodge and avoid given that they can't shoot. Just make certain your opponent isn't trying to herd you into something if that's how you choose to handle them.


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## spike12225 (Aug 21, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> I disagree. Sure, Land Raiders are tough vehicles, that's a given. But you don't need to destroy it to stop it from getting to you with its cargo - immobilization works just as well. Hell, even a Stunned result is good enough if the Marines were silly enough to forget extra armor.QUOTE]
> 
> lol katie arn't you forgetting machine spirit stun it all you want its still coming for you anyone who buys extra armour for a LR has to many points to spend


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## Arnar (Jan 20, 2009)

(Math)Hammertime!

(keep in mind that these are just rough numbers, rounds were made to keep things clear)

An Assault Terminator: T4, 2+/3++, 1W

To kill 1 you need to cause 6 wounds.

To cause 6 wounds you need:

S3 18 hits
S4 12 hits
S5 9 hits

How many shots fired to get the appropriate number of hit:

BS--18hits--12hits--9hits

BS3-36shots-24shots-18shots
BS4-28shots-18-shots-14shots

Compare these results to this:

How many shots needed to kill 1 Space Marine?

To kill you need to cause 3 wounds.

To cause 3 wounds you need:

S3 9 hits
S4 6 hits
S5 4 hits

How many shots fired to get the appropriate number of hit:

BS--9hits--6hits--4hits

BS3-18shots-12shots-9shots
BS4-14shots-9-shots-6shots

What we have learned is that it takes twice as much firepower to take down one Terminator as it needs to take down one Space Marine. If we put this into context, how big a threat would 20 Space Marines with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields be?

What make the Assault Terminators scary is the Invulnerable Save. It kind of nulls out everything an army can usually use against 2+ save, namely low AP weapons. So forget using such weapons (unless you can get multiple hits) and just aim your small/medium guns at them. Just think of them as a unit of Tactical Marines that twice as large and the illusion of incredible staying power is lifted.

As Katie pointed out the best way to stop them is to pop the Land Raider but as was also pointed out it is no small feat. You can deal with that in three ways:

1) Blast it anyway! If you got the firepower (Railguns anyone?) shoot it down as fast as possible. Alternatives to Railguns are mobile melta-weapons, Demolisher cannons and Lance weapons en mass.

2) Preemptive assault. Assault it with your fast, high strength close combat units as soon as possible. Winged Tyrants, Daemon Princes, Greater Daemons, etc. I dont recommend this since you will most likely be hitting on 6+ due to the speed of the Land Raider and most fast MCs dont have the number of attack or the S to cause an significant amount of penetrating hits.

3) Take the hit. What you are looking at when facing a Land Raider filled with Assault Terminators is 450+ in one place. It will need a minimum of two movement phases to reach your line so that almost equals to your opponent having 1/3 (or more) of his army in reserves. The best course of action in my opinion is to ignore it and focus on every thing else for the time you got, after all its similar to fighting 1000 pts with 1500 pts. When the Terminators hit your line just sacrifice units to them until you have managed other parts of his army. Remember though to keep some distance between your units so the Terminators can not assault multiple targets. When you got the game under control, or if you see a good opportunity, focus all your available guns on the Terminators diminishing their numbers. At this point you should also have the means to deal with the Land Raider since it will be so close. The same logic applies if the Terminators DS.

So to sum up:

- Look at the Terminators as twice their number of Tactical Marines.
- Dont use low AP weapons (unless you can get multiple hits), use massed small to medium arms fire.
- Take the hit and counter it suffering minimal losses. In war there are always casualties, learn to make the most of it.

Random tips:

- Control which unit the Terminators will assault with screening. Calculate the move of the Land Raider and screen your more vulnerable/expansive units with expandable ones. Just remember to keep the distance right so the Land Raider cant be used to Tank Shock your screen away.
- Feel free to assault the Terminators if their numbers have been reduced. 2-3 Assault Terminators wont last long against combined charged of most infantry units.
- Dont let your fear of the unit influence your plan.
- Dont devote to many resources to dealing with the Terminators. If you do your opponent has already gotten what he wanted from them. Still, its ok to shoot with everything at them in order to take them out, just dont spend to much time on it.

Good luck!


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## khorneflake (Jul 11, 2008)

the best way, in my opinion, is to get LOTS of breserkers and maybe a daemon prince (with bloodfeeder) with the daemon prince, i killed marneus calgar and 1 terminator  (4 ones)
also, you can always get a big heavy rapid-fire weapon. with my guard and 'zerkers ,my theory is "you can only make so many saves befor you start rolling ones" another hilarious wasy is 3 squads of guard, with sharpshooters 

whoops, you already posted it my bad


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

spike12225 said:


> lol katie arn't you forgetting machine spirit stun it all you want its still coming for you anyone who buys extra armour for a LR has to many points to spend


Well I don't know how many points it costs in the Marine Codex, but 5 pts to ensure you can always move and (thanks to PotMS) shoot at least one weapon on any other result than immobilised? That doesn't seem like too many points to me.

It wont still 'come for you' if its stunned and can't move... and keeping the termies away was a big point here, not stopping there transport from shooting.


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## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

1: extra armor is 15 points iirc
2: PotMS allows you to move, even if stunned I do beleive. So it will come for you.

And While it is conveniant to think about 5 terminators as a space marine squad twice the size, also remember that if we removed the AP value from all our weapons, Space marines would win every game. 

How often do you count on small arms (read: no AP) fire to kill off a space marine squad? 100 shots to kill a ten man squad? No thanks.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

spike12225 said:


> Katie Drake said:
> 
> 
> > I disagree. Sure, Land Raiders are tough vehicles, that's a given. But you don't need to destroy it to stop it from getting to you with its cargo - immobilization works just as well. Hell, even a Stunned result is good enough if the Marines were silly enough to forget extra armor.
> ...


Indeed I did forget. Thanks for the reminder. :good:

Shows how many Land Raiders I come across. :laugh:


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Pauly55 said:


> 1: extra armor is 15 points iirc
> 2: PotMS allows you to move, even if stunned I do beleive. So it will come for you.


Oh well, its 5 points for Daemon Hunters :grin:

I was sure its always shoot. I can't be 100% because my Codex isn't at home with me


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Concrete Hero said:


> Oh well, its 5 points for Daemon Hunters :grin:
> 
> I was sure its always shoot. I can't be 100% because my Codex isn't at home with me


The problem is that there's at least three different versions of the Power of the Machine Spirit running around.

The oldest one is that in the Daemonhunter/Witch Hunter Codecies.

Then we've got the Black Templars who have their own unique version.

Then we have the 5th edition Space Marines. To make it even more confusing, the Daemonhunter one was FAQ'ed, so you can't even trust what's printed in your book. :shok:


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

spike12225 said:


> Katie Drake said:
> 
> 
> > I disagree. Sure, Land Raiders are tough vehicles, that's a given. But you don't need to destroy it to stop it from getting to you with its cargo - immobilization works just as well. Hell, even a Stunned result is good enough if the Marines were silly enough to forget extra armor.
> ...


Potms does not allow you to move when stunned. It only affects the number of weapons you can fire.

Katie is right and Spike is wrong. Best not to "lol" at somebody else when you have not read the rules in the new codex. You risk looking silly. 

In terms of actual tactics, killing the land raider is a good idea just because it's a land raider and they are dangerous in their own right. Unfortunately, for most armies the easiest way to accomplish that is in CC or with melta weapons, which tends to lead to the assault termies beating up your guys anyway.

My suggestion for killing the termies themselves is to make them roll a lot of saves. There doesn't seem to be a lot of point hitting them with plasma guns and stuff when they still get a 3+ save.

Often you can fire a ton of shots at these guys and achieve very little, and also leave the rest of the enemy army untouched because you shot everything at the land raider. It may well be a good idea to target other stuff instead. If you are facing an army with a variety of targets, such as infantry, land speeders, rhinos, dreadnaughts and a LR full of termies, you should seriously consider shooting the other stuff, not the LR.

You should also look at the board to see if you can tell where the LR wants to go. If you can see its destination you can do a lot to improve things, by moving units out of the way or blocking its path. You may be able to put a vehicle in front of the LR to literally block its progress, which can be a perfectly worthwhile thing to do with an empty rhino. That won't always happen, but you should take advantage if you get a chance.


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## Marshal Balian (Apr 25, 2008)

Katie also did mention that there are 3 different rules for PoTMS. 

I am a Templar player and PoTMS alows you to either move if stunned or shoot but at a BS of 2. If I remember right the new codex is the same but with a BS of 4 now. Could be wrong though.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

There are at least 3 sets of rules for Potms, as well as various LRs that don't have it at all, but only one variety that is going to be combined with the terminators that this post relates to. If your opponent has these termies, and his LR doesn't have extra armour, it can be stunned.

Black templars (and inquisitors but not grey knights) have the worst possible land raiders at the moment. They do not have the "assault vehicle" rule in the core rulebook, their codex or their FAQ, so the guys inside may not assault if they get out after it moves - according to RAW at least.

Grey knights arguably get the best crusaders because they can fire their bolters even if they move 12", they have the new improved potms and they come in for 255 points including extra armour and a multi melta, though you do have to buy them smoke launchers and a searchlight if you want them. Their assault cannons are only heavy 3 though, and not rending...

In short, the current RAW for land raiders are (is?) a travesty. It seriously makes me question GW's entire rules-publishing strategy and particularly their near-absolute failure to make use of the internet. You can contrast that with wotc, who produced an extensive errata/faq for 4th ed DnD last year *on the day of release*, and which they regularly update. This is why I like to stay in the tactics forum.


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## Marshal Balian (Apr 25, 2008)

Lats I looked and played BT can still assault out of their LR's. The Land Raider is an assault vehicle. Nothing has changed for that.

Also the BT LRC has PoTMS, Blessed Hull (negates the crafty Eldar and their bright lance rules), and extra armour. I believe it is 260 or 265 pts. So in theory you can move 12 inches fire a weapon at BS2 and then assault.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Annoying that this post has turned into a rules question entirely unrelated to the original subject. I don't like incorrect rules being posted though because it confuses the hell out of everything. So let's look at a BT land raider.



Marshal Balian said:


> Last I looked and played BT can still assault out of their LR's. The Land Raider is an assault vehicle. Nothing has changed for that.


This is incorrect. The Assault Vehicle rule is nowhere in the BT codex. This is because, when the codex came out, the rule for land raiders was in the 4th edition core rulebook (which was done so that it would apply to everyone's land raiders). Later codexes did include the rule but as things stand the in print versions of the Black Templar, Daemon Hunter and Witch Hunter codexes do not include the rule. DH have an faq giving Grey Knight LRs the assault vehicle rule and potms as per the current SM codex.



Marshal Balian said:


> Also the BT LRC has PoTMS, Blessed Hull (negates the crafty Eldar and their bright lance rules), and extra armour. I believe it is 260 or 265 pts.


This is all mostly correct. It doesn't come with blessed hull but it is a pretty good upgrade for sure. In truth, many eldar players are using missile launchers and melta guns at the moment, rather than bright lances.



Marshal Balian said:


> So in theory you can move 12 inches fire a weapon at BS2 and then assault.


The BT potms does not allow an extra weapon to fire if you go over 6". Therefore if you go 12" you may not shoot and may not assault.

This is not what the rules *should* be. GW clearly wants a land raider to be like the ones in the SM codex, but they had a chance to fix the RAW when they brought out the full set of FAQs for 5th and they screwed it up. You can feel free to change these rules in friendly games (and I'd reccomend it) but you are on shaky ground at tournaments.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

I doubt it'd even be an issue at tournaments. Most tournament organizers aren't that big of pricks to say, "No, Black Templar players, you can't assault out of your Land Raiders, even though the intent of the rules clearly says you can." If the tournaments you're going to are being run by the type of folks who're actually going to tell Black Templars players that, you might want to revisit who you play with, and/or check the tournament organizer's bum for a sharp, pointy object stuck in there.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

As I said, I would recommend allowing BT players to assault out of their land raiders. Do check before going to a tournament and do discuss it with opponents in friendly games.

The real problem is that it's not just a single thing that's different between the BT LR and the SM one. If it was just a case of the BT one missing a single rule, for the understandable reason that it was written into the core rulebook at the time, then you would feel on solid ground allowing it (though it would still be nice if it had been in the faq gw brought out to update the codex for 5th).

The problem is that there are many things different between the two tanks. Not least of these is the points cost. SM LRs in the current codex are more expensive than those in most older books, and it's arguable that this is to reflect their new improvements. Your opponent can reasonably ask why, if you are getting a tank as good as the SM one, you are getting it for 10 points cheaper (with the same upgrades). 

I put the blame squarely with GW on this one, and not with players at all. GW are meant to write the rules, not us. When we have to change the rules because of their screw ups, how exactly are we supposed to know which rules to change? We should have the right rules in the codex, and if we have gone to the trouble to find the faqs on their website then they should give us the correct damn answer.


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## tony161 (Jan 27, 2009)

Sounds like a fuck up, but what i've noticed is that BT players don't use LR that much, as they prefer to spend the points on bikes, dreads and large squads, so torny play isn't effected that much, and when was the last time u saw grey knights with points left for a land raider. However GW have messed up, but the DH codex is getting redone soon along with the space wolves this year (hopefully), but BT won't get pulled over the rule anyway, all players know that land raiders should have assult ramp rule, so it's not an issue. 

But back on the subject, the best way to kill a term squad like that is to avoid combat, lead them away from your line with fast shooty units, BT terms are bad at this as they move towards squads who shoot at them. But normal SM are done over with bolters, plas cannon and auto cannons, mid strength weapons that cause miltipul wounds. My tactic isn't this tho, chosen marines with power weapons and mark of slannesh, or lesser deamons.


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## KageRyuuUji (Jan 16, 2009)

Two options...
Conscripts (anyone say 50 man mobs shootng 50 times a turn 13"+ before getting into rapid fire and rolling 100 d6? Ouch, that's gonna kill something, I don't care if they're BS2.)
Plague Zombies (Feel No pain, don't matter if they only have WS2, as long as you have a WS it's impossible to miss everything, and the termies are only gonna kill something half the time anyway.)

Gotta love em both, so cheap, so adorable, so worth it lol


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