# Grey knights vs the space wolves.



## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

So I recently re read the killing ground, the ultramarine novel that had a bit of action from the grey knights alongside ultramarines.

One of the lines stuck out to me I remember it but I forgot it's significance Uriel Ventris and Pasanius had to fight a grey knight and lose in order to prove they were untainted as only a servant of chaos could defeat one. 

If that was the case then how could Grimnar and his retinue succeed in killing A grey knight grand master and four justicar's and yet somehow not be tainted.

Personally I'm thinking that there's several ways that this could go.

The grey knights knew that Ventris and Pasanius were untainted, he also knew that he could beat both of them if he subtlety used his psychic powers to push the combat in his favor. Essentially the entire combat was smoke and mirrors for the benefit of the governor and as a means to remind the humans that astartes are far superior to them. As it stood they were over stepping their bounds.

McNeil put in a line that basically doomed the wolves, this I find hard to believe from the guy who made the Ultramarine's likeable again.

The wolves are just that badass and as the emperors executioners they have the ability to kill any astartes.

Finally there's my personal favorite theory.

The grey knights knew that the inquistion crossed a line with the months of shame. They are unable to vocally go against them due to their ties but they never agreeded with what they were doing. Especially since they broke a parlay. So the grand master and the justicars allowed themselves to be killed. Hoping that it would be enough for the inquisitor to see sense and stop before things get worse.

Thoughts?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

They were all unarmed in that fight as I recall, so yes, the grey knight being a psyker gave him every advantage from the start. Uriel and Pasanius would have had to be using chaos spawned powers to match him or defeat him. 

The confrontation with the Space Wolves was entirely different, everyone was armed and the grey knights psychic abilities probably counted for less. I'm not all that familiar with the story, but didn't the space wolves strike first?


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> They were all unarmed in that fight as I recall, so yes, the grey knight being a psyker gave him every advantage from the start. Uriel and Pasanius would have had to be using chaos spawned powers to match him or defeat him.
> 
> The confrontation with the Space Wolves was entirely different, everyone was armed and the grey knights psychic abilities probably counted for less. I'm not all that familiar with the story, but didn't the space wolves strike first?


The scene is in the emperors gift, as I recall there's Grimnar and five wolf guard terminators and I think it's fifty Grey knights, everyone was armed and armored. Everything about the scene screams either grimnar caught him off guard or he let himself be killed.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

It's definitely artistic liscence on the part of McNeill. GKs are the shit, but unless it's against demons they are not so all conquering that a SM captain and veteran Sgt shouldn't put him away fairly easily. I thought it was a stupid set piece when I read it first, but now I find it absolutely fucking ridiculous. It completely diminishes the power of non GK SMs, and way over hypes the power of GKs. 

Also, does it mean if one GK defeats another while sparring, that the victor is tainted? Just a plain dumb piece of writing.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I agree about the Ultramarines series being shit. McNeill sacrifices the integrity of many chapters, legions, and forces to make others look completely awesome. 

I would say one thing about this though, the Wolves have demonstrated a few times they could hold back larger and stronger forces. Dan Abnett's description of what the Wolves were allowed to be created for echoes.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

That just sounds like awful writing to me and a terrible scene.


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## Stormxlr (Sep 11, 2013)

Actually it would make way more sense if it said that those pure of chaos taint can defeat a Grey Knight.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> I agree about the Ultramarines series being shit. McNeill sacrifices the integrity of many chapters, legions, and forces to make others look completely awesome.
> 
> I would say one thing about this though, the Wolves have demonstrated a few times they could hold back larger and stronger forces. Dan Abnett's description of what the Wolves were allowed to be created for echoes.


Until I read the ultramarine series I refused to go anywhere near codex space marines because of the ultramarines wank that was in it.

The ultramarines series humanized them and actually made them into a likeable chapter complete with flaws.


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> The scene is in the emperors gift, as I recall there's Grimnar and five wolf guard terminators and I think it's fifty Grey knights, everyone was armed and armored. Everything about the scene screams either grimnar caught him off guard or he let himself be killed.


Behold:

_Lord Joros of the Eighth Brotherhood had ruled with a cautiously ambitious hand for seventy years. He was respected by those of us in his brotherhood, though scarcely loved; a warrior admired but rarely emulated. 
The list of his deeds was more impressive than his unapproachable exterior might suggest. While he lacked a great many commendations for command, as a duellist and a front-line fighter, it was acknowledged across the order that few could match his reputation and skills with two falchion blades.

A vital aspect in any blademaster’s repertoire is the ability to read an opponent’s movements, and react with greater speed than they can act in the first place. Joros was a master, and his reflexes were renowned. And yet, his blades had scarcely cleared his scabbards when Logan Grimnar’s axe of blackened steel and burnished gold cleaved into our Grand Master’s breastplate and throat, ending a worthy, respectable life of service with a single crunching chop. 

Joros went down, felled by the axe blow and dead before he hit the ground. The Great Wolf’s axe – named Morkai after some heathen Fenrisian superstition about a god guarding the Halls of the Dead – ripped back out, blood sizzling on its active metal surface. In the time it had taken me to look back from Rawthroat to his liege lord, my own Grand Master was slain. That should explain, at least partially, how quickly the High King of Fenris moved._


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Thanks, it at least proves that he didn't die without trying to fight.

Now the question remains did he make a real effort to draw and fight or was it a show because he knew where it was going to head?

I don't want to ignore McNeil's work because of a sentence, so I'm going to go with that particular knight stretching the truth for that governors benefit. 

They're many things but when it comes down to it they're still astartes. Nothing more.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Logan Grimnar struck when at a parlay then teleported away. That's not meeting someone in a honorable duel thats like one of you saying I surrender to me and then you kill me coming to me to surrender.

As for the background the Grey Knights had destroyed one or more SW-vessels after the First War of Armageddon so Grimnar was naturally not a very happy man as all he wanted to talk about during the parlay was who ordered the shots fired. He got his answer, struck then teleported away, and if memory serves he came alone.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Beaviz81 said:


> and if memory serves he came alone.


Read _The Emperor's Gift_. He took a WG retinue with him.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> They're many things but when it comes down to it they're still astartes. Nothing more.


I think the Emperor would disagree with you on the 'nothing more' part... and a whole bunch of Greater Daemons who have been banished back to the Warp :laugh:


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> I think the Emperor would disagree with you on the 'nothing more' part... and a whole bunch of Greater Daemons who have been banished back to the Warp :laugh:


The Emperor barely knew they existed, and considering they were Malcador's creation, the Emperor shouldn't get any credit for them. 

The only area in which they excel over normal SMs is when fighting demons. That said, normal marines aren't too shabby at that either. There is no evidence that man for man they are any better, stronger or faster than your common-or-garden Ultramarine or Imperial Fist.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Read _The Emperor's Gift_. He took a WG retinue with him.


EDIT: I do not stand corrected. We were referring to two different events. You were referring to when LG slayed Inquisitor Lord Kysnaros. i were referring to when he slayed GK Grand Master Joros. Two different occasions.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> I do not stand corrected. We were referring to two different events. You were referring to when LG slayed Inquisitor Lord Kysnaros. i were referring to when he slayed GK Grand Master Joros. Two different occasions.


You do stand corrected. 

"Grimnar smiled, showing old teeth in a nasty grin. ‘You violated an armistice, killed thousands of my Chapter’s servants, and now name us oathbreakers when you – as always – fired first.’
He looked back over his shoulder to his three remaining Wolf Guard. ‘This is why we so rarely speak to outlanders, eh? No manners.’"

This is when the armistice was betrayed and when Logan slew Joros.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

hailene said:


> You do stand corrected.
> 
> "Grimnar smiled, showing old teeth in a nasty grin. ‘You violated an armistice, killed thousands of my Chapter’s servants, and now name us oathbreakers when you – as always – fired first.’
> He looked back over his shoulder to his three remaining Wolf Guard. ‘This is why we so rarely speak to outlanders, eh? No manners.’"
> ...


:good::goodpost:


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Yeah he had three with him, just read up the fluff. Good quote as well.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Where could I find this story within BL fluff? It seems like a nice piece.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> Where could I find this story within BL fluff? It seems like a nice piece.


_The Emperor's Gift_ by ADB.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> _The Emperor's Gift_ by ADB.


I was afraid about reading more on Grey Knights/Inquisition fluff but this seems like a good read. I did some looking into the book and I'm actually quite surprised. In one hand you have the past Wolves of Fenris devoutly loyal to the Imperium, destroying and killing everything in their path to make sure the objective is met and for the overall good. This novel seems to do a 180 on their previous stance. It seems a bit hypocritical, though it makes for interesting concept to dwell upon rather than making it look like problematic fluff. 

This is definitely my next read.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

It's definitely up there with the best of the BL range. Also a nice little nod to one of Abnetts works at one point. The Grey Knights are depicted really, really well in this. as are the Wolves. Armageddon is suitably epic as well.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> I was afraid about reading more on Grey Knights/Inquisition fluff but this seems like a good read. I did some looking into the book and I'm actually quite surprised. In one hand you have the past Wolves of Fenris devoutly loyal to the Imperium, destroying and killing everything in their path to make sure the objective is met and for the overall good. This novel seems to do a 180 on their previous stance. It seems a bit hypocritical, though it makes for interesting concept to dwell upon rather than making it look like problematic fluff.
> 
> This is definitely my next read.


Honestly once you read it you see that there's not change of stance the wolves are the same as they've always been.

Battle of the fang set out to show that wolves treated their allies with respect and were willing to help them.

The emperors gift just shows how far they are willing to go when they believe they are right.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Got birthday money. I shouldn't say I'm surprised, but the first books I'm getting are _Talons of Horus_ and the _Emperor's Gift._


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I was afraid about reading more on Grey Knights/Inquisition fluff but this seems like a good read. I did some looking into the book and I'm actually quite surprised. In one hand you have the past Wolves of Fenris devoutly loyal to the Imperium, destroying and killing everything in their path to make sure the objective is met and for the overall good. This novel seems to do a 180 on their previous stance. It seems a bit hypocritical, though it makes for interesting concept to dwell upon rather than making it look like problematic fluff.
> 
> This is definitely my next read.


Hasn't the lore for the First War for Armageddon basically always included the part about the Wolves being furious at how the survivors were treated?


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Karthak said:


> Hasn't the lore for the First War for Armageddon basically always included the part about the Wolves being furious at how the survivors were treated?


Yes, but up until _The Emperor's Gift_ we never saw the nitty gritty of it, and just how far the Wolves were willing to go to do the right thing as they saw it, and what they will do to those who betray them. As said in _Stormcaller, _"on Fenris, the oath breaker is lower than the beasts."


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I liked Emperor's Gift but I felt it lavished too much love on the Wolves. I was expecting the Knights to really shine. Instead, it had a lot of "awesome Wolves are awesome" scenes 

Still, I'll read anything by Aaron. His prose is that good. 

Oh yeah...I think there should definitely be a sequel to Emperor's Gift. 

A chapter master striking down a grand master is big deal. What makes it worse was that it wasn't even some sort of honour duel to the death. The two were having a verbal confrontation and Logan decided to end it with his axe. The Wolves then shoot a bunch of Justicars and flee the scene.


I think the consequences of those actions should definitely be explored and I'm very surprised that Aaron (or another authour) hasn't done so


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## 40kBookReviews (Aug 24, 2014)

ckcrawford said:


> I was afraid about reading more on Grey Knights/Inquisition fluff but this seems like a good read. I did some looking into the book and I'm actually quite surprised. In one hand you have the past Wolves of Fenris devoutly loyal to the Imperium, destroying and killing everything in their path to make sure the objective is met and for the overall good. This novel seems to do a 180 on their previous stance. It seems a bit hypocritical, though it makes for interesting concept to dwell upon rather than making it look like problematic fluff.
> 
> This is definitely my next read.


I just finished reading "The Emperor's Gift" actually and will be putting up my review in the weekend.

I think you'll find it quite entertaining and interesting, though I have to say that I found the first half of the book to be a little too slow paced for my liking.

It definitely makes you think about the Inquisition and the Space Wolves in a whole new light, and it even sparks a bit of philosophical pondering about the foundation of the Imperium itself, in my opinion.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

40kBookReviews said:


> I just finished reading "The Emperor's Gift" actually and will be putting up my review in the weekend.
> 
> I think you'll find it quite entertaining and interesting, though I have to say that I found the first half of the book to be a little too slow paced for my liking.
> 
> It definitely makes you think about the Inquisition and the Space Wolves in a whole new light, and it even sparks a bit of philosophical pondering about the foundation of the Imperium itself, in my opinion.


Thats pretty cool. I always liked the fluff behind this book. I sadly did not know _The Emperor's Gift_ was about it.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> I liked Emperor's Gift but I felt it lavished too much love on the Wolves. I was expecting the Knights to really shine. Instead, it had a lot of "awesome Wolves are awesome" scenes
> 
> Still, I'll read anything by Aaron. His prose is that good.
> 
> ...


I think the consequences are fairly obvious, the wolves have allot of respect and allies in other astartes chapters and planets.

Any attempt to get ride of them is going to cause allot of chapters to become upset about that.

After all as hyperion stated they are a first founding chapter who remained loyal at a time when it would have been extremely convenient for them to turn.

Secondly another all out war is going to cause more damage than what chaos would have ever done.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> I think the consequences are fairly obvious


Are you saying that these events are not worthy of a sequel? 

You've written a few obvious sentences. That doesn't mean a novel couldn't explore the consequences in-depth. 

The consequences of the Wolves' actions would serve as excellent material for a future novel. Space Wolves are respected and all that...but the Inquisition and the Grey Knights have plenty of allies as well...and I don't think they're the types to not respond when their members have been killed by a supposedly loyalist chapter. 

The Inquisition has been known to wipe out "renegade" chapters. I doubt they'd attempt to wipe out the Wolves, but they would probably do something in response, instead of just letting it slide. There are different factions within the Inquisition and the Grey Knights as well. Hard-liners would be pushing for some sort of censure. This is great stuff for a sequel.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> Are you saying that these events are not worthy of a sequel?
> 
> You've written a few obvious sentences. That doesn't mean a novel couldn't explore the consequences in-depth.
> 
> ...


Read the new space wolf novel series, there are interesting things in it. The events could be worthy of a sequel but the characters on the inquisition side would have to be total morons.
After all attempting to wipe out a chapter that has proved their loyalty countless times and are valuable combat troops would be a dumb move.


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