# honestly... none of the primarchs could beat current abaddon



## Emperorguard500 (May 5, 2010)

right now with his chaos favors, the talen of horus, and drach'nyen


russ, horus, sangunius, even angron would all lose in a duel against him


the only one i can see possibly beating him is Magnus with his psyker abilities but even then....


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Any sources or information to back up this claim?

Because I'd say any of the combat-skilled Primarchs (basically Horus, Sanguinius, Russ, maybe the Lion, maybe Angron; not an expert on the Primarchs) could take him on, if not with ease then at least with confidence.


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

Sanguineous came fairly close to taking down demon-enhanced Horus (who in turn almost killed the emperor), so I think he could deal with an upstart whelpling like Abaddon.


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## Chaplain-Grimaldus (Aug 4, 2013)

Obvious troll is obvious.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Emperorguard500 said:


> right now with his chaos favors, the talen of horus, and drach'nyen
> 
> 
> russ, horus, sangunius, even angron would all lose in a duel against him
> ...


Eldrad almost killed Abaddon, a primarch could definitely kill abaddon


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## Emperorguard500 (May 5, 2010)

Lost&Damned said:


> Eldrad almost killed Abaddon, a primarch could definitely kill abaddon


so pre-heresy horus, russ, angron any of them would beat current chaos amped abaddon


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Lost&Damned said:


> Eldrad almost killed Abaddon, a primarch could definitely kill abaddon


"_The daemon sword hissed a hands breadth from Eldrad's face, its insatiable thirst for the Farseer's soul pulling Abaddon forward onto the spear. Eldrad felt the future twist into place as its tip slowly puckered and pierced Abaddon's throat, and saw tiny spheres of steaming, black blood fall toward his face in perfect clarity.

Against all reason, he met the beasts' burning, hate-filled gaze. In that second, he knew with total and horrifying certainty that in this, the last of all possible futures, the despoiler's crusades would begin anew, bloodier and more hate-filled than ever. The air grew incredibly hot for a fraction of a second, and the stench of the void permeated the scene. Abaddon was gone._"

Eldrad didn't do shit.


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## Emperorguard500 (May 5, 2010)

i doubt even pre-heresy god emperor, walking around, could beat current abaddon


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## Ryu_Niimura (May 1, 2013)

The troll is strong in this one o.o


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Emperorguard500 said:


> i doubt even pre-heresy god emperor, walking around, could beat current abaddon


Given that your usual amount of evidence for anything you say (i.e. none) I'd not be surprised if you thought Daffy Duck with one hand tied behind his back was able to beat Khorne in a boxing match.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Jacobite said:


> Given that your usual amount of evidence for anything you say (i.e. none) I'd not be surprised if you thought Daffy Duck with one hand tied behind his back was able to beat Khorne in a boxing match.


That would be awesome to watch.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Emperorguard500 said:


> right now with his chaos favors, the talen of horus, and drach'nyen
> 
> 
> russ, horus, sangunius, even angron would all lose in a duel against him
> ...


No... Any of those would paste him in seconds. 

I don't think you realize what a primarch can actually do by comparison to an astartes. Even one like Abaddon.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

In general, I think there is a gross underestimation of Abaddon here...



JAMOB said:


> Sanguineous came fairly close to taking down demon-enhanced Horus.


Did he?

Even _Codex: Blood Angels_ quite clearly states: "...Even at the peak of his powers Sanguinius could not have hoped to prevail against the monster Horus had become..."


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Hmmm... I think some primarchs would have a much better time than others fighting him, purely because of their fighting styles. I think those that try and tank any of his blows and get nailed by Drach'nyen are gonna have a _serious_ issue. If the anathame and the blade Fulgrim used against Guilliman can be fatal to a primarch, I'm sure that weapon is more than capable of killing one too. Problem is, there aren't really much in the way of feats for post-Heresy Abaddon to give us any real idea of how he compares to a primarch. 

Though it should be noted that he was viewed as one of the greatest warriors among the legions during the GC era (that one Dark Angel who's name I forget ranked him along with guys like Sevatar, Kharn, Sigismund etc. if my memory serves me correctly). Not to mention he was the 1st Captain of arguably the most successful legion of the Great Crusade so, despite certain authors depicting him as an Angry Marine in disguise, we can assume that he was more than competent in terms of strategy, intelligence and leadership (though admittedly the last one means little in a one-on-one battle).

Though Abaddon vs the Emperor... yeah, I honestly see Abaddon going the same way as Horus did, because the Emperor would have no reason to hold back at all from the get go. And considering a severely weakened, nearly dead Emperor one-shoted Horus so badly that even his soul was obliterated when the Emperor actually got serious, Abaddon is not winning this one IMO.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Hell, Dorn by himself with nothing but his armor could take on Abaddon. "Dorn moved so quickly that Qruze flinched... There was a crack of sound and Garro fell away, skidding back across the bright blue marble.... With care the Death Guard blinked back to wakefulness and worked at resetting his jawbone." Page 332, The Flight of the Eisenstein. 

Dorn moved so quickly that a veteran Emperors Children marine couldn't do anything but flinch at the movement of the Primarch, and Dorn wasn't even trying to fight, he was simply giving Garro a small knock to the head. If Dorn was trying to kill Garro it is likely he could have killed them both before either of them even knew they were being attacked. 

The warp enhancements make Abaddon stronger for sure, but there is just the fact that he would not be able to keep up with the sheer speed of the Primarchs.


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

I think all of you are forgetting that even a gene-enhanced human, if he has the power of chaos backing him, is more than a match for a Primarch, Prime example being Luther and Lion El'Johnson. If he can match a Primarch blow for blow, land a mortal wound, and survive the encounter relatively unscathed, Abaddon can too and he is arguably the most powerful agent of chaos ever, second only to Horus.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Geist said:


> I think all of you are forgetting that even a gene-enhanced human, if he has the power of chaos backing him, is more than a match for a Primarch, Prime example being Luther and Lion El'Johnson. If he can match a Primarch blow for blow, land a mortal wound, and survive the encounter relatively unscathed, Abaddon can too and he is arguably the most powerful agent of chaos ever, second only to Horus.


As far as I can recall (though it's been a while since I looked at that particular bit of fluff), the Lion had Luther on the ropes, but he hesitated when he had the opportunity to land a killing blow (Luther being his closest friend and ally for many years, as well as a surrogate father), and Luther took the opportunity to give him the mother of all sucker punches. If the Lion had gone in with the straight intention of killing Luther, he'd be dead IMO.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Geist said:


> I think all of you are forgetting that even a gene-enhanced human, if he has the power of chaos backing him, is more than a match for a Primarch, Prime example being Luther and Lion El'Johnson. If he can match a Primarch blow for blow, land a mortal wound, and survive the encounter relatively unscathed, Abaddon can too and he is arguably the most powerful agent of chaos ever, second only to Horus.


The OP hasn't stated in what state the Primarchs are. I reckon Fulgrim with the Anathame could do a number on Abaddon; if the Anathame allowed Eugen Temba to do anything except fall apart against Horus, then the increase it gives to a Primarch's ability must be heinous.

Lorgar Enlightened could probably give him a run for his money, too.


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> As far as I can recall (though it's been a while since I looked at that particular bit of fluff), the Lion had Luther on the ropes, but he hesitated when he had the opportunity to land a killing blow (Luther being his closest friend and ally for many years, as well as a surrogate father), and Luther took the opportunity to give him the mother of all sucker punches. If the Lion had gone in with the straight intention of killing Luther, he'd be dead IMO.


Even if that were the case, it still lends evidence that when you have the power of chaos backing you, even Primarchs should be wary.




MidnightSun said:


> The OP hasn't stated in what state the Primarchs are. I reckon Fulgrim with the Anathame could do a number on Abaddon; if the Anathame allowed Eugen Temba to do anything except fall apart against Horus, then the increase it gives to a Primarch's ability must be heinous.
> 
> Lorgar Enlightened could probably give him a run for his money, too.


I would argue it wasn't so much anathame as the demon that was possessing him that allowed him to fight like that. Which, I suppose means that fulgrim possessed/Daemon Primarchs could potentially beat Abaddon... Really depends on how the Chaos Gods are feeling at that moment, because if they are all giving Abaddon power, then they wouldn't want their servants(Daemon Primarch being Daemons after all) to kill such a useful servant and wouldn't have any qualms about allowing Abaddon to strike them down(since they would just be cast back into the Warp).


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> ... if the Anathame allowed Eugen Temba to do anything except fall apart against Horus, then the increase it gives to a Primarch's ability must be heinous.


Don't forget, Temba was getting a serious boost of Nurgle juice as well and had just, seemingly without much effort, taken out a Luna Wolves captain moments before Horus encountered him. And even then he only managed to score a minor hit on Horus at the same moment as Horus pretty much ended him. And it was only possible because Horus tried a disarming move first that brought him into Temba's range, and would probably have worked on anyone other than a Nurgle champion. So it was really lack of knowledge of Chaos and the power of the anathame that cause Horus to underestimate Temba. If Horus had known what he was fighting at the time, I can't see him letting Temba even touch him.



Geist said:


> Even if that were the case, it still lends evidence that when you have the power of chaos backing you, even Primarchs should be wary.


A plasma cannon can also do some serious damage to a primarch, and a head shot would in all likelihood kill one. That doesn't mean the person firing it will actually manage to hit them if the primarch doesn't want to be hit. Fact is, when primarchs are bloodlusted and don't have any reason to hold back, whatever they face tends to die.

Still, I would be willing to bet that if there *is* actually anyone who could give a primarch a decent fight and even possibly beat one, it would be Abaddon.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

I would say Robute versus kor Phaeron is an example of how a primarch (I admit weakened) can have an issue with a chaos enhanced human, that being said I feel most primarchs would defeat abaddon
1. I think during the 7th crusade Abaddon got (seriously ?) injured by a BA chaplain, that would suggest someone like Angron would be a challenge,
2. I guess my main point, the text ADB recently posted regarding the positioning of ABD towards the chaos gods, 
he wants to keep his distance, if he would go as far as Horus, he would be lost, his bonds with the Gods would be too strong, he does not want to be too dependent from the chaos gods, which make me think that he declines the full power offered by the Gods which would grant him similar powers as Horus had. As such he is more a mortal man as Horus was, closer to humanity, more vulnerable .


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

piemelke said:


> 2. I guess my main point, the text ADB recently posted regarding the positioning of ABD towards the chaos gods,
> he wants to keep his distance, if he would go as far as Horus, he would be lost, his bonds with the Gods would be too strong, he does not want to be too dependent from the chaos gods, which make me think that he declines the full power offered by the Gods which would grant him similar powers as Horus had. As such he is more a mortal man as Horus was, closer to humanity, more vulnerable .


I agree with this, he dosent want to be controlled and just become another proxy, he wants autonomy, so he has to sacrifice a measure of power, he cant devote himself completely to them, and so they wont give him the entirety of the power that they could.
Abbadon was also almost beaten by eldrad ulthran, Im not saying Abaddon is weak, far from it, but his ethos means teh gods cant and wont grant him all their boons


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

I could kill the current Abbadon, I'd show him his bill for his mobile phone, when he sees the roaming charges for making calls from the eye of terror, boom hearts failure!


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Emperorguard500 said:


> so pre-heresy horus, russ, angron any of them would beat current chaos amped abaddon


You're talking in fluff terms. Yes, basically. Considering how far Horus came with the alliance of the Primarchs, and Abaddon without has barely even managed to scratch defences that were a shadow of what they once were... Yeah.

We're not even talking combat might here, but logisitics, supplies, outmaneuvering, and the sheer morale boosting factor that says "fuck yeah, we've got one of the top 22 most powerful individuals to ever come out of the Emperor's nutsuck on our sides" says a lot.

As an aside, if you want to compare exactly how capable they are; lets look at a Primarch's special rules; 

Independent Character; Look Out Sir 2+ save, so cannot be sniped without a Challenge
Eternal Warrior; T6 Minimum for Primarch's, and no Instant Death Weapons
Fear; No effect
Adamantium Will; Psychic Powers saved on a 5+ Save
Fleet; More likely to get the charge
Fearless; Speaks for itself. So's Abaddon
It Will Not Die; Chance to heal self each turn.

Lorgar is the cheapest of the Primarch's so far; 375pts. He has Telepathy or Telekenenesis as his powers; Psychic Shriek has a 25% chance of causing at least one wound on averages, while Invisibility has a glorious effect; Hallucination can cause another wound on himself or prevent Abaddon from even Attacking.

Using Fleet, Lorgar likely has the charge; the Talon does nothing. They both strike at the same time; assuming Abaddon goes for the Talon, that's 4 attacks, hitting on 3's; so likely 3 hits; all wounding due to wounding on 2' with a reroll. That's up against a 2+ Armour Save; likely all saved. If he goes for Drach'nyen, he has a chance to cause himself a wound, followed by an average of 8.5 attacks; resulting in around 6 hits, wounding on 5's, so 2 wounds, one of which is saved by Lorgar's 4++. If Abaddon is the charger, the math is much the same; but it results in allowing Lorgar an "It Will Not Die" to regain a lost wound on a 5+. 

Lorgar hits back with Illuminarum with his 6 S8 AP2 Master Crafted Attacks; hitting on 4's with a single reroll for around 4 hits, all wounding typically, 2 of which are saved Concussive (what Initiative?) by Abaddon's 4++. He has Eternal Warrior and T5, so he's safe from that, but with only 4 wounds, and two wounds an assault phase (4 turn) being caused by Lorgar compared to Abaddon's 1 (2 in a turn, one of which is healed by a 5++ for a net gain of 1 wound caused per turn), with a ratio of 6 wounds on Lorgar to Abaddon's 4, Lorgar wins. And that's the cheapest option.

Fulgrim; 380pts; 2+/3++ in CC, with WS8 and a S6 AP2 weapon and 5 base attacks, +1 for charging, and in challenges adding the difference in Initiative to his attacks, he has 7-8 attacks, while any Armour or Invulnerable save passed on a 6 (go on. Use Drachn'yen, I dare ya) forces an Initiative Save or blindness on Abaddon. 
Angron; 400pts; WS9. I7. His S7 is pumped by Furious Charge and his twin axes for S9 AP2 Charges; that's with 7 Reroll to hit Attacks on the charge, and not including assuming that he hasn't got a further 4 attacks thanks to his use of the Butcher's Nails (+1 per IC/Infantry unit killed by Angron). He "only" has a 3+ Save, but also a 4++ and a 6+ FNP, combined with a MC'd Plasma Pistol means that he even has a chance of kiting Abaddon if he so wishes. About the only Primarch he'd have a chance versus, and even then, that 4++ and It Will Not Die puts a dent in Abaddon's output long enough to be ripped limb from limb.
Ferrus Manus without Forge Breaker; 415pts; He has Smash for AP2 attacks regardless, just at S7 rather than S10 and no Concussive.
Vulkan; 425pts; 2+/3++, with WS7 and T7 means Abaddon's even less capable at wounding him, while he can reroll It Will Not Die results to make it easier to heal any damage done. Only difference is I5, and that's not a problem really, as it's unlikely Abaddon can do anything about it. Meanwhile, he hits at S10 in close combat with AP1 and Concussive (see, I5? Psh). Alternatively; thanks to 18" range on his S6 AP2 Pistol means he can kite all day long. 
Mortarion; 425pts; 2+/4++ with rerolled "It Will Not Die" means he's extraordinarily resilient. He can Kite and kill effectively thanks to his S8 AP2 18" Weapon. Despite striking at I1, 5 S7 AP2 wounds can cut down Abaddon quicker than Mortarion will be. 
Kurze; 425pts; 2+/4++ with WS8 and I7 means he gets to be more accurate, strike before, and be equally as resilient to damage as Lorgar, while he uses "proper" Lightning Claws; AP2 S6 Shred; although he doesn't get the Night Lords +1 to wound for outnumbering, combine him with a single unit, and he's got 2+ Rerolls. Along with being Jump Infantry and with Hit and Run he can get the charge in, alternatively using his Jump Infantry to stay at the 12" Range, and just pepper him with his Widowmakers Precision Shot on a 4+ (so no unit benefit from Abaddon), while to wound rolls of 6 ignore both Armour and Invulnerable. Can be kited like no tomorrow, even if Abaddon is in a unit.
Lorgar Transfigured; 450pts; Mastery 3 Psyker, 3d6 and choose the highest for Psychic Tests, can choose which powers he wants from the tables rather than rolling (so Invisibility, Psychic Shriek, and Hallucination).
Ferrus Manus; 455pts; Similar Stats to Vulkan, WS7, T7, I5, 2+/3++. He is equipped with 2 Plama Blasters (18" Assault 2 Plasma gun), which can Kite him all day long. In CC, he also works much like Vulkan due o S10 AP1 Concussive weapon. He also has a Servo Arm. 
Horus; 500pts; WS8, S7, 5 Attacks, 2+/3++. His Talon strikes at S7, but the added bonus is that it's AP2, and even if it doesn't kill Abaddon, Abaddon loses -1WS (no effect though; lowest Abaddon goes is 4 at 1 wound remaining), but also Strength; After suffering 2 wounds, Drachn'nyen cannot cause wounds, so has to use his Talon, which strikes at S4, not S8, so wounds on a 6. In addition, Horus can also attack with his Unwieldly Worldbreaker, a Master Crafters AP2 Concussive Weapon to force I1 strikes from Abaddon. Oh, and he has a 1/battle S10 AP2 Twin-linked 5" Blast Bombardment. He's Very Bulky as well, so outnumbers Abaddon (Bulky), gaining an Additional Attack; so 7 attacks, 8 on the charge. Abaddon's got no chance.

These are the published ones. The two "easiest" ones would rip Abaddon a new one. Considering that 40K doesn't have the scale to represent the power of god units, that's saying a lot (No, it takes a considerably lot more resources to take down a unit like a Warlord titan; or even Space Marine than what the fluff says. While it's small amount of rules can put across just how powerful Abaddon is, the rules don't do him justice, in the way that the rules do not do an Astartes justice, and consequently, the Primarch's do not have justice done to them (although they ARE nigh unkillable).

We've yet to see the Khan who will likely be able to kite like a fucking king, AlphariusOmegon who is likely to actually BE Abaddon himself he's that fucking sneaky (that's sarcasm, just to make sure you don't get twisted panties); Corax who showed he was highly capable of handing Empowered Lorgar's ass to him, (and we've already proven Lorgar beats Abaddon even unempowered), all three of whom who in the fluff would likely have already isolated Abaddon's direct command; likewise for Magnus although for a different reason. The Psychic powers do not the elite psykers all that justice, but imagining a Primarch statline empowered with, say; Warp Speed, Precognition, Misfortune, and Invisibility (+D3 Attacks and Initiative, Rerolling missed hits, wounds and saves, targeting a WS1 enemy that must reroll failed saves) is pretty scary. I suppose Rowboat could also be included here in the sense he'd already have defeated Abaddon's army and isolated him).

Then the murder kings of combat; Sanguinius (Ka'Bandha who we'll say is probably nearer Anggratth in power, or perhaps Skarbrand as an example of his power), Russ (could take on Magnus who's as affected by powers as before). Although the Lion was getting battered by Curze (Despite his sneak attack), I still believe that the Lion was one of the physically more powerful characters; although in my eyes less so than Sparkles and Shaggy.

It's unclear exactly how powerful Dorn or Perturabo are physically, but it's unlikely they'd be "weaker" than Lorgar, probably nearer Mortarion is where I'd place them.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Aaaah. Seems that LACK OF CONSISTENCY has reared it's ugly head in this trolling post. In the original 40k story line, I don't think anyone would claim that a SM could take a primarch. Through the years however we've done everything from have Mortarion defeated one on one to Kor Phaeron giving Gulliman a pretty decent fight. I already hold the Primarchs in low regard thanks to these stories as a bunch of super powered children and bitches. For "Genetically-engineered Super-Warrior Demigods" I'd say I'd rather take the mental strength of the Masterchief from Halo over almost EVERY PRIMARCH. So while I don't want to agree with this troll post I'll say this: Yes. 


There's a extremely good case to be made with the current state of fluff that Abbaddon can kill a primarch. Draigo didn't have the blessing of all the Chaos Gods. Kor Phaeron didn't have the daemon sword. The primarchs have been seriously chopped down to in power and prestige to where it's hard to respect a lot of them as men much less as soldiers. Horus's reason for starting this thing to me is almost feminine. "Daddy didn't trust me and he abandoned me." Why don't you just become a fucking stripper or porn star. Abbaddon's reasons for doing this are legit: His name is Inigo Montoya......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=kRAI9_MkmBM


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## Emperorguard500 (May 5, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> Aaaah. Seems that LACK OF CONSISTENCY has reared it's ugly head in this trolling post. In the original 40k story line, I don't think anyone would claim that a SM could take a primarch. Through the years however we've done everything from have Mortarion defeated one on one to Kor Phaeron giving Gulliman a pretty decent fight. I already hold the Primarchs in low regard thanks to these stories as a bunch of super powered children and bitches. For "Genetically-engineered Super-Warrior Demigods" I'd say I'd rather take the mental strength of the Masterchief from Halo over almost EVERY PRIMARCH. So while I don't want to agree with this troll post I'll say this: Yes.
> 
> 
> There's a extremely good case to be made with the current state of fluff that Abbaddon can kill a primarch. Draigo didn't have the blessing of all the Chaos Gods. Kor Phaeron didn't have the daemon sword. The primarchs have been seriously chopped down to in power and prestige to where it's hard to respect a lot of them as men much less as soldiers. Horus's reason for starting this thing to me is almost feminine. "Daddy didn't trust me and he abandoned me." Why don't you just become a fucking stripper or porn star. Abbaddon's reasons for doing this are legit: His name is Inigo Montoya......
> ...



ehh to be fair its just inconsistensy of the writers


in tabletop the primarchs are pretty much unstoppable


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> Horus's reason for starting this thing to me is almost feminine. "Daddy didn't trust me and he abandoned me." Why don't you just become a fucking stripper or porn star. Abbaddon's reasons for doing this are legit


Erm...


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> Erm...




Okay, "Daddy Issues" is something I would expect from a human. Not a genetically enhanced demigod. Mentally the weakness displayed by the primarchs in the Horus Heresy series is the most surprising aspect of the Heresy. Like a tank with a KIA engine.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

You ever read the books? It doesn't look like it.


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## The_Reaper (Apr 22, 2012)

Not sure if OP is trolling or just hasn't read the HH books but here is a link to a similarly discussed topic. Plus using the search function can be very helpful.
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=119051&page=2


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