# How can SM have ancestors that are SM?



## Vokshev (Feb 12, 2011)

I mean aren't they not allowed to have a family? If so doesn't that make them the last of their line once they become SM?


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

If they were an only child, then yes, but there are siblings that are not chosen and they grown up and have a family. "Remember your uncle, he was chosen, you could be chosen too."

So over the course of a SM's lifetime, his sibling's family continues to grow: "Remember your granduncle...." And then, "Remember your great-granduncle...."

Being an ancestor is not too far away.


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## Vokshev (Feb 12, 2011)

Could they have a family first and then join the SM and their son also have a family first being following his father and the grandson....great-grandson so on and so forth until their family is big enough for 1 company?


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

In the Blood Angelsomnibus by James Swallow, it was considered remarkable that two brothers became BA (at the same time, granted, but it does seem a rare enough occurrence that it can be commented on). I can't think of any SM books where two generations are in the same chapter. However, I have not read everything from the Black Library.


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## Dogbeard (Apr 15, 2011)

Typically, Space Marines are inducted in their early teens, sometimes as young as 10. Since the process is often begun after the start of puberty, it's possible that a Space Marine could have fathered a child or children prior to his transformation. However, a man must be fairly young to begin the process, late teens at the oldest.

Luther and the older members of the Order of Caliban were admitted to the Dark Angels Legion, but they apparently underwent a different process of transformative surgery that meant "they would never be as strong, tough or fast as a Space Marine."


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## AzraelCorvus (May 13, 2011)

Yeah, it does seem like it's possible to be made a Space Marine when you've aged past the typical "early teens" period when they prefer to induct new members, but like Dogbeard said, as far as I know they're not quite the same as ones who were transformed earlier in life.


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## Jormungandr (May 11, 2011)

If you read the fluff in the DeathWatch rulebook, Im pretty sure it says that they have to begin before they hit puberty - something to do with hormones overloading the implants, or something.

And besides, theg call one another "brother" for a reason - they join the Chapters family, so their SM ancestors doesnt require a blood ancestry, more a chapter ancestry.


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## Vokshev (Feb 12, 2011)

Oh my...a nearly eternal life with no action for their 3rd leg! That really sucks!


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

in blood angels saga there are two true brothers and in age of darkness there are as well but i believe it is a rare occurance but Ventris had a ancestor who was a SM so the family thng generations down the line seems about right. 
i suspect if the SM in question was a valient and reverred warrior maybe the chapter master has a way of tracing lineage back as i read that Ventris was given a place within the UM due to his connection to a ventris of second company


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Dogbeard said:


> Typically, Space Marines are inducted in their early teens, sometimes as young as 10. Since the process is often begun after the start of puberty, it's possible that a Space Marine could have fathered a child or children prior to his transformation. However, a man must be fairly young to begin the process, late teens at the oldest.
> 
> Luther and the older members of the Order of Caliban were admitted to the Dark Angels Legion, but they apparently underwent a different process of transformative surgery that meant "they would never be as strong, tough or fast as a Space Marine."



Especially when you think some of the death worlds it might be needed to bear children earlier. So you might have young Men having kids starting at around 12.


Doc


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

They are ancestors through their geneseed.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Doelago said:


> They are ancestors through their geneseed.


Very true statement....their DNA is altered so all of them are related via the gene seed's DNA.


Doc


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

And thats the reason why they sometimes venerate the Emperor as their "father".


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## Vokshev (Feb 12, 2011)

gothik said:


> in blood angels saga there are two true brothers and in age of darkness there are as well but i believe it is a rare occurance but Ventris had a ancestor who was a SM so the family thng generations down the line seems about right.
> i suspect if the SM in question was a valient and reverred warrior maybe the chapter master has a way of tracing lineage back as i read that Ventris was given a place within the UM due to his connection to a ventris of second company


I think the man you are talking about is Lucian Ventris from the first company. In this case he is probably his great great grand uncle or something.


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## dragonkingofthestars (May 3, 2010)

forgive me for takeing this thread a bit off track, but this is something i have never understood about marines.

if becomeing a marine has a great deal to do with genetics, then why not have marines have children? 

by takeing people who have the gentic make up for it out of the population your selecting against that set of genes by haveing them not have kids takeing that set of genes out of the pool via evolution.

A marine though has the genes to become a marine, hence why there marines at all. if they have kids, there far more likely to have kids who can become marines then a muggles kid.

So why can't marine have kids, and if i am wrong, why do we assume they can't have kids?


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

I don't think it is that they can't physically. Here are the reasons they don't:

1. At there size they would seriously damage any women they were with.

2. I think the process of becoming a SM both physically and mentally "derails" that drive in them.

3. If it didn't and they did have a family some might want to leave to be with those famlies.

4. It is hard to be a dad while in constant life or death struggles to save the species.


Doc


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## Vokshev (Feb 12, 2011)

docgeo said:


> I don't think it is that they can't physically. Here are the reasons they don't:
> 
> *1. At there size they would seriously damage any women they were with.*
> 
> ...


Hah!

But come to think of it, if they have kids, their children will have superior genetics and might even be a better space marine!


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Vokshev said:


> Hah!
> 
> But come to think of it, if they have kids, their children will have superior genetics and might even be a better space marine!


Nah...think about greek mythology...they would be Demi-SM. SM dad and normal mom.



Doc


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## Vokshev (Feb 12, 2011)

Yes but, in greek mythological terms, dad= mortal ---> god, god+normal wife = demi-god son. demi-god son ---> supergod.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

I know Ventris fromt he UM series had a relative in the UM, his father or grandfather, somewhere along those lines. And as already said Arkio (I think his name was) and Rafen (Again, think that was his name, haven't read any books in a while) where actual brothers who I think joined at the same time.

But in the majority when it comes to Astartes ancestry I'm sure they are talking about their former battle-brothers who have perished in battle. They are all brothers through gene-seed and share the genetics of their primogenitor (primarchs) who are the children of the Emperor (So I guess that would make the Emperor a sort of grandfather to the Astartes).

So basically a Black Templar in the current era's ancestor would be Sigismund, who was the first High marshall for the Black Templars.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Vokshev said:


> Yes but, in greek mythological terms, dad= mortal ---> god, god+normal wife = demi-god son. demi-god son ---> supergod.



HUH???? I think you are refering to the sucess of demi-Gods like Hercules and Persius? They were so great because for one they unlike their God parent were on Earth everyday and fighting for its people against great evil.
If SM had children the SM would still be there everyday defending Humanity.

Doc


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## Vokshev (Feb 12, 2011)

the "--->" represents the gene-seed implantation and the physical transformation the SM went through, I mean since the father was a very ordinary human being chosen due to superior performance to become a SM, their sons would already have far superior genetics to begin with even BEFORE becoming a SM, and after the augmentation process, he would be some super SM.


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## Azrell (Jul 16, 2010)

The Smurffs recruit from the same world, and have for 10,000+ years... its unlikely that you wouldn't have a had relative somewhere over that amount of time.

SMs are no longer human, they state this empathetic in many BL books. They become SM instead of going through puberty to become Adults. It stands to reason that they cannot father children, outside of passing there geneseed. 

Can they write there name in the snow? that's a long standing question... the BL has never to my knowledge had a marine stop for a piss break.


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## Vokshev (Feb 12, 2011)

I think they wear diapers.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Azrell said:


> The Smurffs recruit from the same world, and have for 10,000+ years... its unlikely that you wouldn't have a had relative somewhere over that amount of time.
> 
> SMs are no longer human, they state this empathetic in many BL books. They become SM instead of going through puberty to become Adults. It stands to reason that they cannot father children, outside of passing there geneseed.
> 
> Can they write there name in the snow? that's a long standing question... the BL has never to my knowledge had a marine stop for a piss break.


I remember reading that their armor recycles all body waster.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

When humans finish their transformation into Astartes, they are rendered sterile due to the chemical enhancements amongst others that were used during the process. This is arguably also why Astartes lose their sex drive, something that has yet to be officially stated but widely assumed, but overall it has nothing to do with the now much smaller bodies of women themselves.

The geneseed does not make Astartes biologically related to whomever possessed it prior to them, it simply allows for their various organs to function. The spirituality/mysticism built up around inheriting geneseed is another matter entirely.

As others have said, they can actually have ancestors because in WH40k there are no universal norms in regards to when one can have a child. So prior to being taken in by a legion/chapter, they can leave a child behind at a very young age.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> but overall it has nothing to do with the now much smaller bodies of women themselves.
> .


Well I don't know any women that would want to be men that.....ahh...Large.

Otherwise I agree that that doesn't stop them from being able only that if they were able(and I agree that the psychco and physical conditioning damages or destroys that drive) they wouldn't find to many takers from the female population.

Doc


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

docgeo said:


> I don't think it is that they can't physically. Here are the reasons they don't:
> 
> 1. At there size they would seriously damage any women they were with.
> 
> ...


On point 1, I don't think the Imperium would care if they hurt Women if the result was an already enhanced human ready to fight in defence for them.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Ultra111 said:


> On point 1, I don't think the Imperium would care if they hurt Women if the result was an already enhanced human ready to fight in defence for them.


Touche...lets hope the SM legions never get exposed to Viagra....it would be chaos...lol...pun is intended...lol!


Doc


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## DijnsK (Mar 29, 2011)

in some chapters spacemarines are even allowed to have families... the Salamander chapter has sertain marines that even lead their own tribes. and the White Scars need to loose their virginity as a final right of passage before becoming a full space marine...

so not even can they have other family that passes their blood, they can also pass it on themselves


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

DijnsK said:


> in some chapters spacemarines are even allowed to have families... the Salamander chapter has sertain marines that even lead their own tribes. and the White Scars need to loose their virginity as a final right of passage before becoming a full space marine...
> 
> so not even can they have other family that passes their blood, they can also pass it on themselves


Where is that fluff recorded at? I am NOT doubting you...I just would like to read it also.

thanks,
Doc


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

He's just trolling you.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

ahhh...I am always so gullable when it comes to trolling.

thanks,
Doc


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

docgeo said:


> Touche...lets hope the SM legions never get exposed to Viagra....it would be chaos...lol...pun is intended...lol!
> 
> 
> Doc


lol, that would be pretty destructive. I wouldn't want to stand between a horney space marine and a woman...


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

docgeo said:


> ahhh...I am always so gullable when it comes to trolling.
> 
> thanks,
> Doc


It's cool man, he had me going too, I was like huh I must have missed that bit about the Salamanders having their own tribes or something from some ancient codex but then the viagra bit was too obvious lol.


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## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

Can space wolves induct very late? I mean one in Prospero burns Fith is a man who fights with other tribes before he is inducted. At the wolf at the door in Tales of heresy it said that men were taken into the space wolves, but the chances of them not surviving the process are not great.


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## jack (Oct 30, 2008)

Once a marines progenoid glands have matured then doesn't that gene seed then get passed down to another marine initiate. That's kind of making them related, in some form or another.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Space wolves are inducted up until their 30's ( terran years obviously) it is stated in the fist SW omnibus. In the SW codex, lukas the trickster has a bit of an auld shag now and again (what a hero!  :victory and one of the SW lords got killed after making a pass at a woman on a planet, but it turned out to be something else. But maybe then the SW are just horn-dogs (pun). I believe CSM also rape and pillage (especially emperor's children)


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Very odd that they would be able to induct someone that old. All of the growth plates are closed so they couldn't grow any taller. I always read that they took there initiates in their early teens. I also remeber in the first DA HH book how older knights...such as luther couldn't get all the augmentations due to age.

Doc


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## Samir_Duran (Apr 6, 2009)

The fact about Salamanders having families is true, not sure where it was, but many GW salesman taht are independent take this as true.

Then again, why does a good marine can't be a head of a family? When I created my Legion, I let them have family ties. But then again, about the height and mass growth, I let my marines have children only up to the age of a scout. When they become the Marine in Power Armor, they are still capable, but there isn't just a woman enough for them. Bah! Sargeant Falcon of my scouts even befriended a Initiate Sister of Battle ( not sure if I want to explore the thing about their relationship). Then Again, each Space Marine from a NEW family in my Legion/Chapter becomes that family's head, and the oldest Marine of one clan retains the title of the family head to his Demise. 

And still, letting Marines to see their families once in a time ( eg. when they refill their ranks) is not a bad idea and it gives a second motivation for them. They fight to uphold the emperor's hold of the Galaxy, AND to protect their beloved ones. And apart from being depicted as a ruthless and bloodthirsty god, the Emperor is also said to be really compassionate to those who are loyal to him.


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## dragonkingofthestars (May 3, 2010)

:shok:

dude, you just said how my chapter works to a par.


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Bit of Antiquated fluff, but there is the story that went with the Deathwing from Spacehulk. The one that explains why deathwing armour is white.

That story proves that fluffwise Space marines can have ancestors who were also Space marines, providing they father the child before being made space marines. Cloudrunner a Deathwing Terminator in the story states his Grandfathers Grandfather called Hawk Talon also became a Dark Angel, leaving his son fatherless. When cloudrunner himself met the challenge to become a space marine (at age 12) Hawk Talon was one of the marines to meet him. He also makes another appearance at the end of the story as a dreadnought.

What this doesnt give you is how old Hawk Talon was when he fathered the child.

Im pretty sure I remember some stuff from the third edition codex that said they were normally under 18, although Ive seen other fluff suggesting as young as 10.

As far as after they are marines goes. I strongly suspect the imprinting which they go through reprograms themselves to channel everything into their fighting leaving them with no desire for women. Im guessing that part of their extra bulk is obtained by redirecting resources normally used for reproductive purposes to muscle building etc, would a fighting machine really waste resources on unnecesary cell production. They're probably mostly functional eunuchs.


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## Vokshev (Feb 12, 2011)

Testosterone that is responsible for how 'big' you can grow also contributes greatly to sex drive....I suspect they have no shortage of male hormones.


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Vokshev said:


> Testosterone that is responsible for how 'big' you can grow also contributes greatly to sex drive....I suspect they have no shortage of male hormones.



I suspect they have very little testosterone.

No shortage though of "artificial" male hormones for certain, most likelly similiar to steroids for atificial muscle growth, the affects can be very different to natural testosterone, a space marine is chemically and hypnotically programmed to become an efficient war machine. Sex and sexual desires are nothing but distractions and potential weaknesses to a being meant purely to kill efficiently. I dont doubt that the emperor knew what he was doing when making up the space marines. Probably cleverly picked the right chemicals to stimulate muscle growth without stimulating the receptors linked to sex drive. 

In the horus heresy when the emperors children fell to slaanesh - was it the women or the other marines they were driven to fulfill their need for sensual stimulation, nope it was musical instruments, they turned to slaanesh, but went for drugs and rock and roll and skipped the sex completely...

Im pretty certain that their biscopea completely negates the need for testes at all in the muscle building process. Its actually very likelly that the artificial testosterone from this organ actually shuts down the bodies production of real testosterone due to the bodies attempts at homeostasis. The body recognises the steroid in the blood stream and so shuts down natural testorsterone production. Just like with many types of steroids today. 

I would suggest that a decently inteligent emperor could see the advantage of selecting a chemical hormone that completely killed the bodys natural testosterone production, didnt activate sex drive responses itself and built muscle. Its all win from an efficient fighting machine point of view.


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## Vokshev (Feb 12, 2011)

Not sure which is more tragic, having to not act on their own sex drive for centuries or to be chemically castrated.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

docgeo said:


> Very odd that they would be able to induct someone that old. All of the growth plates are closed so they couldn't grow any taller. I always read that they took there initiates in their early teens. I also remeber in the first DA HH book how older knights...such as luther couldn't get all the augmentations due to age.
> 
> Doc


SW transformation process is totally different than that of a normal marine. They go through mass mutation after taking in the canis helix. Also, it is 40k, you honestly think that matters?


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## drz196 (Feb 4, 2011)

While it may be tragic, I'm sure that the Space Marine themselves don't care or even realize that loss. You know, all that hypno-indoctrination and all that.

Sorry in advance for incoming long post.

Anyways, If I remember reading correctly, in the HH novel "Tales of Heresy", the short story about a group of Space wolves described how many of the lords and rulers on Fenris where told they where too old to become space marines, similar to the knights of Caliban when the Lion was found. Unlike Caliban (or maybe the same, just didn't hear about it), these lords where so fanatical in following Russ that they would rather attempt to be a SM and most likely die in the process, then never try at all. A great many did die, but many more lived through the process than what was expected. We are talking people who have already distinguished themselves as veteran warriors prior to transending to superhuman. It's very possible that people like that have already fathered families long before becoming a SM.

Additionally, keep in mind that while there is an imperium standard for telling time (and again, different from our current way) it is very possible that time itself is not counted the same from planet to planet, culture to culture. Taking Fenris for example again, what they consider a "year" is actually, iirc, 4 years on terra. See Prospero burns for that info.

Lastly, looking back on our own history, it was not uncommon (still not in some parts of the world) for bands of people in the tribal/feudal state to have rights of passages/marry/produce children at young ages ( from my quick googling, taking from simply one region, about 50% before age 17. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't SMs, when availible, gather their recruits from tribal/feudal people when availible because they are generally much more?

Anyways, just a longwinded way of saying yes, completely viable to have an ancestor be a SM.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Thinking about the evolutionary angle on SM's, while it might tittilate to think about the big strapping SMs having their way with poor mortal women, or how the implantation process chemically castrates a prospect none of these come back to the real issue. When someone is selected as fit for a recruit, 10 minutes and one cup give you the potential for thousands of progeny through artifical insemination, which is tech we even have now. Heck, they probably even have the ability to vat-grow people considering the level of tech they've degraded to.

Couple that with the same procedure on the Sisterhood side, where they have their eggs harvested before they... well, do members of the Sisterhood have sex or not? Either way, artificial insemination, implantation into a female Servitor, a la Ixians in Dune, and you have an evolutionary pathway that makes more guaranteed candidates for any Chapter. A thousand years later and you don't even need a Deathworld to breed good candidates, you'd almost certainly have a ringer every time.

Otherwise, the process for harvesting candidates for SMs before they can procreate almost certainly acts to suppress human evolution toward unaugmented humanity having capabilities closer to the Astares.


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## drz196 (Feb 4, 2011)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> do members of the Sisterhood have sex or not?


I believe in the book "Cain's Last Stand", Ciaphas witnesses one of the Sisters discreetly leaving the personal room of an adept from the Administratum.

He also states that while it's not "against the rules" per say in their order, the very nature of a sister's occupation leaves very little time for such..eh, pleasures.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

Its entirely possible for a Space Marine to have ancestors, even direct grand-father to father to son links etc, 

Because as i recall in Decent of Angels, the two characters you follow (the one to become a librarian and the other a chaplain) were inducted right at the end of the age limited for successful induction, so they were around 16-19 yrs of age, which as we know in this day an age is old enough to father a child, so whats to say that a Space marine didnt father a child before induction especially if there were in their late teens.

But remembering have a child is a different thing.

I doubt most Space Marines would even be aware of themselves having kids, as the fluff has said many times, that the psycho-indoctrination causes a Space Marine to forget some if not all of their previous life before induction.


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## Vokshev (Feb 12, 2011)

drz196 said:


> I believe in the book "Cain's Last Stand", Ciaphas witnesses one of the Sisters discreetly leaving the personal room of an adept from the Administratum.
> 
> He also states that while it's not "against the rules" per say in their order, the very nature of a sister's occupation leaves very little time for such..eh, pleasures.


 
I wonder if this applies to the SM as well, are they infertile? impotent? or both? and is there rules specifically against them from having some...fun?


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