# High Elves vs. Gun Lines



## N0rdicNinja (Sep 17, 2008)

Before I get into the meat and potatoes let me just say that I've never actually read the HE army book, I'm a WoC player, which is why I'm asking you all so forgive me if there's an obvious solution I just don't know about. =P

A friend of mine is really digging the high elves, he's always had a fetish for Dragons and every game he's every played he always makes what he likes to call a "Whoomph with Style" character. Basically an extremely dexterous character that likes to beat things with a really big stick, and a High Elf with a Great Weapon just screams this so he's really drawn to the style of the army.

With that out of the way, we have 2 gun line Empire players in our play group, and thus far he's had an EXTREMELY hard time dealing with them. It's to the point now where he's considering just quitting the game all together, cause he doesn't want to ask the gun line players to do something other then what they want to do but at the same time it's simply just not fun. And he woull really like to stick with the High Elves because he adores their style. So I figured I would hop on the forums for him and ask my fellow Heresians, how do you go about handeling a gun line army (specifically Emprial gun line) with a High Elves army?

Thanks for any tips! ^_^


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## Othiem (Apr 20, 2008)

I'm not intimately familiar with HE, but I can think of a few places to start. A pure empire gunline lacks the toughness and defense of a dwarven line. If you get anybody across the board, they will crumble quickly. So remind your friend of that, if he can survive two rounds of shooting, it's pretty much an autowin for him. 

First get as many ward saves as you can going. Use phoenix guard to screen for swordmasters or white lions. Sea Guard are good against such a list, as they can shoot at vulnerable empire gunners as they advance, then prevent flank charges once the elites hit the lines. Mages with their ward save spell are good here as well. I think HE have an item that lets them choose their spells instead of rolling for that, that would be worthwhile in this case. Shadow Warriors are a must to pick off his war machine crews. In this case I would favor great eagles over bolt throwers, as the eagles can move up and engage gunner units at the same time as the dragon. You can also try to go on the offensive magically, preferably with spells that cause panic tests. Empire magic defense is a sad state of affairs, so play up that HE advantage. If this is a 2250 point game, you can always go for the dual dragon build with a dragon mage. At least one of the dragons will get there, and that's all you need.

Gunlines are tough to learn to play against, but once he figures them out, they're not that bad to win against....unless it's of the Dwarven variety.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

If you invest 631 pts(standard tough as hell HElord on Stardragon) on a model which will underpreform against certain enemies you need to rethink.

Stardragon-based HE lists arent supposed to be good against Empire, and they generally arent either. This is where the word varriation springs into mind. I bet he has a blast with his Dragon against your WoC, right? Unlike the dead Dragon feast against empire? 
Its quite simple, he needs to learn to change his list. It is the nature of the game that very few lists works like a clock against everything, and this is more or less the standard example that proves that rule true:scare:

Depending on what he has available I'd try to max out infantry. HE Spearelves works like charms against Empire, as does Swordmasters and Phoenix Guards. Add some fast elements like Great Eagles for warmachine hunting and some cav for flanks. Maybe even try to cut out the magic to force in more models. A HELord has LD10 so few things will run away within 12" of him, and as noted once you get into CC the game starts looking bright


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

What? Swordmasters work against Empire? Handgunners, maybe?

A Phoenix Guard Core is the way to win. Two units of 15-20 of those, (preferably), or White Lions, will make a greater mess of opponents Gunlines than anything else in the Empire list.

Try beating the Empire at their own list. Make them come to you. You outshoot them, with Archers. Hanguns are 24", you're 30" longbows against unarmoured T3? You're hitting on 4's as well, so you do equivalent damage, as they hit on 5's, and wound on 3's, at long range, but you also get a turn before them.

BSB's, and 4x Mage (could be an Archmage, or Teclis, for Shits and Giggles) will really rip them up. Hell, you could go for a Shadow Archmage, and Korhil, to take apart Cannons, with a potential 30" Charge, or Caradryan to kill any Cavalry.


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## N0rdicNinja (Sep 17, 2008)

Thanks everyone for the recommendations, he's tried switching his list up he just hasn't come up with to much success as of yet. The one suggestion here that jumps out at me is just out ranging them with Longbows, never really had thought about it but you're right, T3 with no save the bows will eat right through them! XD He'll most likely try using longbows and great eagles in the next game he plays against them, and I'll let you all know how it goes.



MaidenManiac said:


> Stardragon-based HE lists arent supposed to be good against Empire, and they generally arent either. This is where the word varriation springs into mind. I bet he has a blast with his Dragon against your WoC, right?


You best believe it! 1v1 games against him and myself are a blast, I'll go all Khorne, we'll both just say fuck the mages, and it's a bloody good time! =)


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

I've always found that using an archmage on a great eagle is the way to go against gunlines. You get Flying without Large Target, and if you give you archmage *that certain book*, they cast Irresistible Force on any doubles except 1s.

Magic is a great way to disrupt gunlines, especially HE magic because we have access to every lore.

Casting Comet of Cassandora with IR against a gunline army is just pure win.


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## Grenic (Jan 31, 2009)

Vaz said:


> A Phoenix Guard Core is the way to win. Two units of 15-20 of those, (preferably), or White Lions, will make a greater mess of opponents Gunlines than anything else in the Empire list.
> 
> Try beating the Empire at their own list. Make them come to you. You outshoot them, with Archers. Hanguns are 24", you're 30" longbows against unarmoured T3? You're hitting on 4's as well, so you do equivalent damage, as they hit on 5's, and wound on 3's, at long range, but you also get a turn before them.
> 
> BSB's, and 4x Mage (could be an Archmage, or Teclis, for Shits and Giggles) will really rip them up. Hell, you could go for a Shadow Archmage, and Korhil, to take apart Cannons, with a potential 30" Charge, or Caradryan to kill any Cavalry.


I agree with taking Teclis to deal with gun lines and he is a standard selection when I know I will be facing such a list.

However, I have found that Teclis needs to be supported by two things: (1) the Banner of Sorcery; and (2) a Mage wingman. 

As this is not a tourney list and you know that you will be facing an Empire gun line, I would go with a 2nd level Mage with the Seersstaff plus a Dispel Scroll. If the guy brings several war machines, use only Lore of Metal on both Teclis and the Mage. For the mage I would select the Commandment of Brass spell plus another useful one like Molten Silver. During the magic phase, Teclis and the Mage focus on shutdown the war machines that are the biggest risk with the Commandment of Brass spelld. Teclis should use the Spirit of the Forge against the Steam Tank and Knights (throwing 5 dice when casting).

As for the rest of the list, I would use Sword Masters protected by the Standard of Balance, White Lions (Teclis and the Mage hide out in this unit), Archers, and RBTs. If you have any points left, I would look to include Reavers.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

theres no point imo in taking a 2nd mage along with teclis. Better to take a banner of sorcery in the list somewhere and let him use all the dice. On average he has 10 dice to chuck about, doing 2 spells on 5 dice is virtually guarenteed 2 total powers. if you were to take a level 2 then your opp would have something he could actually dispell with his dice he hasn't been able to use against teclis.


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## Ascendant Valor (Jan 3, 2009)

High Elves do have access to a number of fast moving units. Don't discount the abilities of cheap-as-dirt Silver Helms or hard-as-nails Dragon Princes, who can hit the enemy lines by turn 2.

Great Eagles can tie up some of their units in Combat, too, or at least draw off some of the fire. For 50 points a piece, you could allow another 1000 points to encroach on your opponent's line that much better (or is it "more easily?")

Magic will be hard, since there aren't that many spells that only require LOS and not Range. After all, your mage will have to be within shooting range to unleash that Fireball. Granted, some lores, like Heavens, have spells that don't have a Maximum range, so they'll help. Otherwise, go for Buffing magic, like Light, Heavens, or High Magics.
Folariath's Robes can just about guarantee your mage can go deep into your opponent's territory and just shrug of their mundane attacks.

Phoenix Guard will likely be your friends, while Archers and Eagles will support them. Maybe some mages to add some more punch to the game, too. Maybe.


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