# The Primarch Project - Interest Thread



## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Please note -- this roleplay will likely not occur until Deathwatch is well under way and even then I will likely delays it start until I feel solidly comfortable that I have time to run it and Deathwatch while maintaining my commitments in other roleplays.

The Primarchs were the Emperor's finest creations -- born of arcane knowledge not found within the Materium, forged with strength no being could hope to match and with a charisma that both infectious and dangerous. We have all read about them in the Horus Heresy and have a general understanding of each of them and their ways of thinking. We see it reflected in their legions -- the Alpha Legion is aloof and secretive like Alpharius while Dorn's sons tend to stand their ground and lack open humor, especially when compared to say ... the pre-heresy Luna Wolves. 

Now allow me to stop you in mid-thought. I have no intention of creating a roleplay where we literally roleplay as the Primarchs throughout the Horus Heresy ... thats why we have the book series. My roleplay would adjust and nudge history in a different course. 

In short -- you would be able to design your own Primarch, incompassing anything you desire. Will he favor war and bloodshed like Angron or will he stay within the shadows like Corax? Or perhaps he will be widely unique to every known primarch. You would also, in turn, be allowed to forge your own Legion in any manner that you deem appropriate, in any structure that you feel is to your liking. You would be able to roleplay as a true demi-god, with only the chains of the Emperor (me) to keep you in line.

The original twenty primarchs, in this roleplay, would never exist. The Emperor would have created, in their stead, twenty different primarchs, with each of you being able to forge one into your liking ... maybe even your image? 

Now, this is just an interest thread. I do NOT have any of the details hammered out yet -- but I was reading Deliverance Lost today and the idea suddenly sprang into my mind and I felt the urge to attempt it. I've not doubt the feat would be titanic in scale trying to GM a roleplay with twenty legions and their primarchs -- since you would all be brought together to down some foe of the Emperor's.

For now, my only question is -- how does the Heresy Community feel about it? Would this type of roleplay interest you? Also I promise ... no stats or numbers, this one will be my alternative to Deathwatch's mechanics, it will flow more along the lines of a traditional roleplay.


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## Jackinator (Nov 18, 2008)

You already know of my interest but I will display my support here publicly, I'd love to try something like this .


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

Oh sweet lord, I started reading this thread faster and faster as my nerdgasm went multiple. DEFINITELY! :gamer2:

EDIT: I might have to copy you. I'm so sorry.

EDIT 2: It's only because my mind would become even more unstable in the wait.

EDIT 3: Heck, I've made three edits because I'm so buzzed by the idea. Make your own Primarch = YAAAAAAAAY!

EDIT 4: No, I shouldn't steal the idea, it wouldn't be fair.

EDIT 5: Getting rather silly now, but just confirming there will not be any copying.

EDIT 6: Well, maybe...

EDIT 7: No, definitely not. Well... no, well... maybe...? No! Well... ask me again tomorrow. :laugh:


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

This sounds like a very fun idea, in theory. Just a few things to think about:

-By being primarchs would make your players, well basically, gods. So I would think about how you would curb obvious god-modding.

-The primarchs were beings of intense and deep personalities. They are everything humans are, and then a million times more. I think anyone, even the most seasoned RPers would struggle to convey the full depth of a primarch.

-Would they exist in isolation? If not, would they be accompanied by honour guard? Would they lead a full legion to war? Because, in normal RPs, you can put most of the characters in a squad, or give them squads and let them exist in isolation, but a primarch just wouldn't have that luxury.

-Would you be working on the assumption that all the primarchs had been found, and hence 20 people would play? Because, if so, that is a massive RP. Most are about 10 max, so managing 20 RPers would be manic. This would only be further complicated by the fact that your players would be gods and hence prone to lots of crazy things 

-Would they all fight together? In cannon fluff, I think the most legions that were gathered was at Istavaan (I always spell that wrong) and that was only four on Istavaan III and a full seven on Istavaan V. If you did put them all together, would that not give the impression of the Imperium leaving itself vulnerable?

-If they are in different war zones, how will you manage them? Separate threads? Separate updates? If you had different war zones in 1 RP, it could get very messy.

Like I said, I like the idea. I really like the idea. I think it would be great to RP a primarch, I just think that there are several key issues you would need to think through if you were to go through with this.


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## Jackinator (Nov 18, 2008)

While I agree with Deus that this would be a massive undertaking, I also find that Blackguard, were it not for various real life events interfering, has written some of the best RPs on here. I still remember The Wretched Host with fond regret, despite the events that conspired to bring it to an early close, I've found he puts a lot of thought into RPs, regardless of whether they are something new or not. If anyone can pull this off, it's him


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Seconding what Deus said but Im also interested


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## Santaire (Feb 13, 2011)

Primarch rp? You defininetly have my vote!


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

So, would players have a say on mutations ala Sanguinius or Russ? 

Will this be a personal face to face character roleplay, or a campaign style where we command armies? 

If the former, what kind of enemies would we be pitted against to prevent this from being a simple romp by twenty unkillable demigods? 


I think it's a solid idea but at the same time it is going to need more thought than a typical Rp.  

And yes I am interested. :wink:


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Like I said in the opening post -- I've not even thought about hammering out some ideas. Though I've got some creative ideas on how to get around the issues.

First and foremost -- I'm envisioning a Ullanor-type deal where a great amount of legions were brought together to put down such a massive Ork Empire as the one that actually required the Emperor himself to get involved. I remember a statue in False Gods or Horus Rising where it depicts Horus and the Emperor fighting side by side, or rather back to back. I also remember that an especially vicious Ork Warboss almost killed the Emperor, were it not for the intervention of Horus. The Emperor is more powerful than all of the Primarchs (with the possbile exception of Horus w/Chaos Power), and he was almost struck down. Plus our knowledge of the events during the Great Crusade are, by and large, vague at best. There is virtually two centuries of war that we do not know and who is to say what kind of enemies the Primarchs faced?

Secondly, I do not believe it is possible for any of us to truly roleplay a Primarch like it should be done -- or else, they wouldn't be so special to us. This would not necessarily be a problem, its a learning experiance for everyone. Honestly, none of us can accurately roleplay an Astartes to perfect accuracy. We all do our best but I am sure if stacked with the real deal we would all fall short. So I'm not overly concerned about this part.

Thirdly, I'm not sure about the isolation and/or grouping of the Primarchs. Obviously each of us would like, and probably would, take a more proactive role in combat operations. But being a Primarch is not just being him, it is being his legion, it is forging a group of core characters within your Legion that are both unique and colorful. Though you can expect each of you to assist one another at times. Again this aspect is still under thought.

As for the god-modding of players, it can be contained. The Primarchs are unbeatable to any one foe ... but then, what kind of a foe faces a primarch alone? You'd more than likely get swamped or be fighting vicious pskyer-infused creatures, or monsters of such a horrific nature that only a primarch can defeat them.

Also please understand -- I AM looking for anyones input into this idea. This whole concept, the design and the execution of it go far beyond one man's ability to envision and I am open to every suggestion from those interested.


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## Thebluemage2 (Feb 16, 2012)

Sweet Chaos...Role play as a Primarch? Am I even worthy of such an honor?


I am extremly interested in this, I feel a Nerdgasam coming on!

The hardest part for me will be the name, I can never come up with a good one without 5 minutes of thought!

{Sigh, May not even be able to get in on this, I have a duty to a few other RPs, But anything can happen!}


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## Bane_of_Kings (Oct 28, 2009)

Sign me up, if you do one, this sounds awesome.


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## CaptainQuackers (Jan 4, 2012)

I absolutely love the idea, so if you have room I'd be thrilled to join. However, if a more experienced rper wants to join and the spaces are full, feel free to kick me out.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

I read this thread over a second time, having sat down and had a nice calming cup of tea... and nerdgasmed all over again! :yahoo:


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

I am very glad to see the turn out in support of this type of role. I've decided to get to work on the development of it, the implementation is still a ways off and I will likely randomly ask some of you questions regarding issues I may have that I need input on.

For now, I shall recede into the Imperial Dunge-....erm, I mean my study and begin research and development.


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## Thebluemage2 (Feb 16, 2012)

Remember to bring coffee and the severed head of a master writer to help in the idea process!:biggrin:

Good luck!


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## William Siegfried (Jun 25, 2011)

Lol if you need help man let me know, you know I'm working on a similar project so maybe we could pool something together to help each other out? .


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

I'd definitely be interested. Let me know if you need any help.


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## Romero's Own (Apr 10, 2012)

please tell me this is still going ahead. If so sign me up. My head's already filling with ideas.


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## Santaire (Feb 13, 2011)

Dude, check the date of the last post. It was 6 months ago. Then read through a couple of Blackguard's posts on the last pages of Deathwatch: Well of Night Recruitment Reborn. He has an idea but he is planning to make it the best rp he's ever done and so he's going to do lots of rps so that he can get a feel for the correct style of rp that will keep people interested and keep it going so that he can finish it.

So if you have lots of ideas that you want to keep, write them down somewhere because it's probably going to be ages before he does the rp.

Edit: Just read his first and last posts in this thread. They state clearly that he is going to simply build up on this idea over and over, redraft it and come up with new ways to do it. It states that he will be waiting until Deathwatch: Well of Night is well underway which it isn't and probably will not be for a while and that he needs to be confident that he can keep multiple rps running while participating in other people's.


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## Romero's Own (Apr 10, 2012)

sorry. I noticed the date but wanted to check if this will ever happen. And i'm pretty sure he could easily get 20 seeing as anyone offered the chance to forge their own Primarch would take it without a second thought.


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## Santaire (Feb 13, 2011)

Yeah but if he's putting a lot of care into it he's not going to be accepting character sheets that can be done in five minutes is he?


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## Romero's Own (Apr 10, 2012)

of course he wouldn't. But many experianced RP players would also take this opputunity.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Ok, so a grave-bump for this thread for the express purpose of getting some fresh input on some ideas I've been running with.

*There were only twenty ...*
One of the biggest issues that I have found with RPs is that people tend to join and then leave. I am a horrible explain of such a creature. However, I understand that people have real-life obligations that override some so petty as a roleplay. Though this presents a unique issues in regards to the Primarchs.

There were ever only 20 of them and each of them held a special place in the grand scheme of things. The last thing I want to do is to interject a primarch and his legion -- and they go missing. We've got two chances for that to happen and it not, completely, throw the roleplay out of sync. 

Imagine for a moment -- the World Eaters. They have only had a few minor roles in the Horus Heresy novels, yet are a critical piece of the Heresy. Imagine if they suddenly disappeared from the series. You never heard about them, Angron never popped up and all the Loyalists and Traitors never talked about him again. Then suddenly a new legion called the Crimson Guard jumped up and took their place. We'd all be confused as hell.

Thats the issue we face at the present. I cannot, and will not, damn anyone for running out of time for a roleplay when I myself have made the same decision at times. But for this to flow easily we must have room for breathing. I can replace a Kill-Team member no problem, I could probably even swing replacing a Chapter, but I cannot replace, without some kind of fundamental crack in the RP, a Primarch and his Legion.

The solutions I've come up with are the following:

1.) Limited the Allowable Players -- Limiting the number of players does, in fact, give me some room for drop-outs. If only six Primarchs take part in the first roleplay and one of them goes rogue -- I can saw his Legion moved out and another one (new player) moved in to relieve him. This does, however, still presents a problem long-term. When the Heresy does happen, whenever that is, we will still have X number of Primarchs and Legions just kind of hanging in limbo.

2.) Threaten you all with violence -- Play or die. Simple as that. Cutting you a thousand times, rubbing you down with the essence of heat, and washing you in a salt bath.

No pressure, k?


*An crack in the armor of a god ...*
The Primarchs were demi-gods. Even after the death of Ferrus Manus they still debated weather a Primarch could truly, truly die. We've all seen things like Angron surviving that sesmic grenade, like Horus beating his way through enemies, or like Fulgrim taking out that Eldar-Avatar. They were only beatable by their own kind -- Primarch versus Primarch or against the Emperor. 

Therefore I believe players will have a tendency to become a little TOO god-like. The Primarchs flaws did not lie in their strength or combat abilities. Each was ultimately shown to be weak in areas of personality and severe character flaws -- Angron for violence, Fulgrim for arrogance, even Dorn for stubborness. These flaws weakened the Primarchs more than any physical wound and lets face it -- you are all probably not going to die until the Heresy. The roleplay will, obviously, be a moot point if I get you all killed. 

Though I feel a certain balancing act will be needed. I'm considering placing a spot for 'Strengths' whereby a list of them may or may not be provided for you to choose from or think up. However, for every strength there will be two weaknesses that I will pick -- either at random or home-made for your Primarchs. This will keep each of you from becoming TOO perfect ... but that didn't save Fulgrim in the end, did it?


*The View-Point?*
I believe a question was posted above about what kind of view-point will the roleplay take. From just a Primarchs or from a Legion stand-point? I'm in favor of the Legion-stand point with a lot of Primarch view-points as well. Each Legion would be given a base number of Astartes to start out with -- with some minor modifications that will be listed later. From there you successful military tactics will be rewarded with additional troops or material -- allowing you to virtually build your Legion -- but that would also be a touch bland.

To counter-balance it, there will be several instances were the Primarchs would take center-stage for whatever reason to provide more indepth analysis/development of your Primarch's ethos and personality. 


Well guys, I would like to hear back from you about this. Thanks.


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## Santaire (Feb 13, 2011)

I think you've got what you'd need for a primarch rp (in my opinion) perfectly right.

Godmodding would just be too easy but don't forget that Horus was almost killed by a mortal, admittedly he was wielding the anathaeme but still.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

BlackGuard said:


> *There were only twenty ...*
> 
> [snip]
> 
> 1.) Limited the Allowable Players -- Limiting the number of players does, in fact, give me some room for drop-outs. If only six Primarchs take part in the first roleplay and one of them goes rogue -- [snip]


I think you've gone either end of the spectrum there; twenty would be too many people in a RP where you control an entire legion. But just six might get quite lonely and will disappoint lots of people trying to enter. :laugh: 

Perhaps a starting number of 8-10? Then if people leave you've still get 10 spare legions and primarchs.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

The number six was only an example number, not one set in stone. The more people I have in the RP, the more chance there is of a drop-out. Although 8-10 seems pretty commom around here, assuming they all stay active. 

I'll need people to stay active not just in the first roleplay but subsequent roleplays there after. My intention is not to start the RP and go from whatever the first campaign is all the way to the Siege of Terra (assuming there is one ... probably will be though). I'd rather those who develop Legions become attached to them and really try to make them into something they will cherish -- especially their Primarchs.

My intention right now is for four roleplays, I know this increases the chances of drop-outs or someone not re-applying for whatever reason. But I feel that an RP like this needs to be a rather lengthy one that spans over a proper amount of roleplays. To be honest, I am inspired by unexpected's Scythes of the Emperor roleplay and its on its third incarnation.


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## CaptainQuackers (Jan 4, 2012)

Well, I can say I would love to join this and your ideas sound amazing, but I'm wondering whether I would have the writing ability to do a whole Legion justice, but consider this a tentative reservation, if such a reservation is possible. I'll write up a Legion and Primarch over the next few days/weeks and submit it to you through PM, if you think it's appropriate for the RP I would love to join.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Hold off on sending me the Primarch and Legion CaptainQuackers but feel free to brain-storm. No reserving at this moment though. I'll make it a first come, first serve type of deal -- and by that I mean a fully completed Legion/Primarch that shows care and thoughtfulness.


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## Romero's Own (Apr 10, 2012)

just some suggestions.

i think you would be able to keep down god modding by throwing the legion into the mix. For example if a player went on an unbeleivable rampage and takes a world single handly then you could kill off a large group of their legion.

And if you did something good then you could be given some points. You could then spend the points on your legion (training more marines, upgrading marines, building up a fleet or defending your homeworld) or you could spend it on yourself (better weapons and armour)

hope my ideas help


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## Santaire (Feb 13, 2011)

Feck it.

You talking about Primarchs having weaknesses in their personality has got me thinking. It's pretty obvious with some but I'm stuck on Sanguinius. Help anyone?


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## Romero's Own (Apr 10, 2012)

i think with Sanguines his weakness was the Red Thirst. But i'm no blood angels expert


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## CaptainQuackers (Jan 4, 2012)

I'm no BA expert either, but I'd say his personality flaw is that he is too trusting. He trusted his brothers to the last, and he always considered Horus a brother.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

Well to be honest, RPing the Primarchs as monstrous death-machines, cutting down every foe in their path, isn't really godmodding as they're already gods. :laugh:

The way that people won't be able to just insta-win everything is the physical limitation on sending the Primarch everywhere. He won't be able to engage in every battle across an entire planet, he'll only be able to lead one battle as he can't be in two places at once. But then he's not coordinating the entire campaign, which may lead to failures elsewhere.

I think the decision for the Primarch to lead his warriors into battle would be a tactical move, not an insta-choice. Maybe to raise morale, maybe for the final confrontation, maybe to make a statement. But the Primarch is hardly going to go on _every single_ border-patrol now, is he?

What I'm trying to say is that when the Primarchs take to the field, expect them to be epic. That's not godmodding. What *is* godmodding is making the entire legion always epic, or making every choice easy with no risks and no punishment, and being able to make every other legion your best friend and having nothing ever go wrong. Godmodding with Primarchs is not traditional battlefield mass-destruction.


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## Santaire (Feb 13, 2011)

Actually, that's a really good idea.

Blackguard could make it that while it may seem awsome sending the primarch is not the best idea. Like say you put him in a battle that, because he is there, they win with ease, absolutely trashing their enemies. However on the other side of the planet the space marines are forced to make a tactical retreat due to overwhelming numbers or something like that, You could win a battle in one place but lose the war in another


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Romero's Own said:


> of course he wouldn't. But many experianced RP players would also take this opputunity.


Yes and no, experienced or veteran RPers (from what I have seen) would keep an eye on something and maybe make notes for the future, but until the details are set in stone they would not act. For in the end their is no point, you can't make a character without knowing what you can and cannot do, so beyond planning and thinking of idea's, there is nothing you can do.



BlackGuard said:


> Limited the Allowable Players


Limiting the number of players that your willing to let play at a single given time is kind of a no brainer to be honest. There comes a point where there is to much going on for a GM to control, and no room for anyone else who wished to join (either because you cannot handle it, or there is nowhere for them in the story.)



BlackGuard said:


> The roleplay will, obviously, be a moot point if I get you all killed.


Actually, an RP where none of the characters have the slightest chance of dieing for the better part of the whole thing sounds far more boring, and more of a moot point if you ask me. 

What would be the point of not throwing these primarch characters into the greatest danger? You just stated there is no chance of them being killed until a certain point after all.



BlackGuard said:


> I'm in favor of the Legion-stand point with a lot of Primarch view-points as well.


So would it be safe to assume that, should this ever get going, this will generally be a player controlling a massive army and controlling damned near every single NPC in that army with potentially little actual interaction with other players?

Pardon me this next word, for it will come as nothing short of rude: boring.

Having players interact with themselves gets nothing done in regards to character development. It truly offers no differing point of view, because you control each of those characters. Yeah a player can have the NPC's disagree, but he/she knows the outcome of those 'interactions' whereas with another person, you can only really guess what they might say or do.


As for your original question in the first post:



BlackGuard said:


> how does the Heresy Community feel about it? Would this type of roleplay interest you?


Me personally? No, no it would not interest me in the slightest. I derive no joy from an RP that puts me in control of what is, for all intents and purposes, a god with very little chance of being killed off for my mistakes, where I control an entire army of NPC's for me to interact with.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Some of your points are very valid darkreever. I'll take them into consideration as I attempt to flesh this out.


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