# Dark Angels/Witch Hunters Tactic



## Integracer23 (Jan 14, 2009)

So I've been toying with the idea of bringing in Witch Hunter allies with my Angels for a while now, mostly so I could bring in an assassin, and I finally go my hands on the Codex. I found something that I am very eager to play test. 

There is a Psychic power that Inquisitors can have that can reduce, by way of a roll off, a target's leadership to a mere 3!... for the rest of the game! I plan to use this in tandem with Ezekial's mind worm, which forces a target to pass a LD test. Once failed the model walks off the board muttering his sins.:laugh:

What do you all think?

One draw back that I can see is that these are fairly short range, 24 for the Inquisitor and 18 and heavy for Ezekial.


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## Jackinator (Nov 18, 2008)

Are you sure you don't mean by 3. I've checked the codex and the only psychic power with similar effects to the one you're describing is purgatus, which reduce the leadership by 3. Not reduces it to 3.

Otherwise that sounds an interesting idea, even though their leadership is higher than 3 it is still only 7.


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

You'd have more luck using a Psyker Battle squad from the Ig.. sadly you can't field those alongside him. 

PBS can reduce enemy leadership by 9 if they use their power.
The WH power only reduces the leadership of the target by 3. You could use a culexus though.. anything within 12" of him goes down to LD 7.


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## Integracer23 (Jan 14, 2009)

IC, i did miss read that. If the culexus was standing near when i used purgatus would, for that turn a ld 10 model go down to a 4? Prolly would just stay at a seven i think. I still want to test retinue options plus a seven is more failable than a 10


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

The problem with this tactic is fairly simple - Ezekiel freaking sucks. The only really remarkable thing about him nowadays is that he has a better set of characteristics than a Codex Librarian does, as well as a lot of superior wargear - the master-crafted bolt pistol doesn't mean much, but a 2+ armor save and master-crafted force weapon make him a force to be reckoned with in close combat. Unfortunately his psychic powers are pretty abysmal. Force Barrier is the only Invulnerable save Ezekiel has. Hellfire has the potential to be devastating, but really relies on the dice cooperating in order to be effective. Mind Worm barely ever works unless you take specific steps to increase the odds of the model failing its Leadership test, which means more points need to be spent that would probably be better off spent on more Dark Angels!

I'm not saying that allying Witch Hunters into a Dark Angels army is a bad thing - in fact, I think allies are a great way of making a Dark Angels army that is strongly themed toward a Battle Company more viable in competitive play. It's just that 'Ziek and an Inquisitor, Assassin, or whatever cost a lot of points.


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

It would stay at 7 I think. But when the culexus moves away, it would still be 7.
And Katie is right.. the combination is a LOT of points you could spend on more usefull stuff.
One of the reasons I don't have rhino's in my SoB army.. for the price of a rhino, I can get 5 more battlesisters.


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## Integracer23 (Jan 14, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Ezekiel freaking sucks.


I'll half agree with that, he requires a bit of finesse to play. Yes DA psychic powers are fairly bland and Mind worm has yet to work, but he is great for making my marines fearless and for an unlimited ranged psychic hood. I'll let you know how the inquisitor combo fairs after I play test it. (would really like to see my friends fexes run off the board)

Does anyone have some advice for inquisitor retinues. I was thinking Sage x2, and then a bunch of veteran gaurdsmen with melta/plasmaguns. Has anyone used that b4?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Integracer23 said:


> I'll half agree with that, he requires a bit of finesse to play. Yes DA psychic powers are fairly bland and Mind worm has yet to work, but he is great for making my marines fearless and for an unlimited ranged psychic hood.


If you want Fearless Marines, just take a Company Master or Azrael and have the next best thing. Fearless can be helpful sometimes for sure, but it can also turn out to be a disadvantage, like when you'd rather a unit break than stand around and get eaten in close combat by something nasty. Also, if you want an unlimited range psychic hood, ally in a Grey Knight Brother Captain with a psychic hood. He costs barely over 80 points and is probably even more deadly than Ezekiel is in combat. His only real downside is his single Wound, so he needs to hide in a squad until it's go time.


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Inquisitor lords can also buy a psy-hood with unlimited range.
As for the retinue.. depends on if you take a DH or WH inquisitor.
As DH inquisitor, take 2 mystics, and 3 guys with HB, while the inquisitor has a psycannon, that's 12 shots S5 AP4, 3 of which allow no invulnerable save.
Add a couple of acolytes with carapace armour as ablative wounds ( bolters will be fine for them )

As WH retinue, I'd go with a similar setup. WH inquisitor with the psy power, maybe a familiar and give him a 2nd one ( the one where they have to take a test or fallback as if taking 25% casualties ), 3 HB combat servitors and 2 surgeons and 2 sages.
Optionally replace 1 HB servitor with a plasmacannon servitor.


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## Integracer23 (Jan 14, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> If you want Fearless Marines, just take a Company Master or Azrael and have the next best thing.


Neither of these dudes make marines fearless other than the squads they have joined. Ezekial makes units within 12" fearless. Company masters are a point sink at least when compared to the bargain you get with Belial. Never used Azreal tho, I have the model I'm just not ready for the responsibility plus i usually don't like playin games over 1750, which is'nt enuf to justify 225 on a single character. 

And yes i realize the downfall of fearless marines against a Wraithlord, dammit sammael why aren't you strong enuf to wound him or smart enuf to fall back! 



Inquisitor Einar said:


> As WH retinue, I'd go with a similar setup. WH inquisitor with the psy power, maybe a familiar and give him a 2nd one ( the one where they have to take a test or fallback as if taking 25% casualties ), 3 HB combat servitors and 2 surgeons and 2 sages.
> Optionally replace 1 HB servitor with a plasmacannon servitor.


That seems like a good setup. I was thinking it would be beast to have like 6 or 7 twin-linked(effectively) meltaguns rolling in a chimera.


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

You only get 1 reroll for the entire squad from the sage, not all of them become twinlinked. It's good when equipped with 3 plasmaguns though. 1 overheats, you reroll it, if a 2nd overheats, you got a medic to take care of that.


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## oreomaster3 (Mar 13, 2009)

i thought medic only removes wounds of the inquisitor, not his retinue


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## talisapien (Jul 31, 2009)

Yes, in the WH codex it says that a Chirurgeon only helps the Inquisitor him/herself ignore one wound per turn.


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## exsulis (Jul 17, 2008)

Integracer23 said:


> Neither of these dudes make marines fearless other than the squads they have joined. Ezekial makes units within 12" fearless. Company masters are a point sink at least when compared to the bargain you get with Belial. Never used Azreal tho, I have the model I'm just not ready for the responsibility plus i usually don't like playin games over 1750, which is'nt enuf to justify 225 on a single character.


And that just made me laugh. Both a CM, and Az bring LD 10 to the army. Really Belial sucks, and is a waste of points compared to a CM. For the same inv save, 1 less armor, and one more attack the regular CM is a steal, inaddition to the extra options he can take. This guy is cheap. Belial compared to his counter parts is 10 % too expensive.



Integracer23 said:


> And yes i realize the downfall of fearless marines against a Wraithlord, dammit sammael why aren't you strong enuf to wound him or smart enuf to fall back!


 Its the same with pretty much any of the DA HQs. Stick with TH terminators, or cannons.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

exsulis said:


> And that just made me laugh. Both a CM, and Az bring LD 10 to the army. Really Belial sucks, and is a waste of points compared to a CM. For the same inv save, 1 less armor, and one more attack the regular CM is a steal, inaddition to the extra options he can take. This guy is cheap. Belial compared to his counter parts is 10 % too expensive.


Dude, Belial is a steal for his points! Terminator armor alone is worth approximately 25 points, let alone the cost of a master-crafted power sword, pair of lightning claws or thunder hammer and storm shield. If you were to attempt to "buy" Belial by taking a normal Company Master in his place, you'd pay an awful lot more than what Belial costs.

Oh, and to top it off he makes Deathwing Terminators Troops. That's awesome.


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## Trevor Drake (Oct 25, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Dude, Belial is a steal for his points! Terminator armor alone is worth approximately 25 points, let alone the cost of a master-crafted power sword, pair of lightning claws or thunder hammer and storm shield. If you were to attempt to "buy" Belial by taking a normal Company Master in his place, you'd pay an awful lot more than what Belial costs.
> 
> Oh, and to top it off he makes Deathwing Terminators Troops. That's awesome.


Katie does have a point. When you can bring an army of termies to the table if you wanted to, compared to a company master that, lets face it, is sub-par and does not give you any access to 'modified' roster options is the true meaning of suck.

Trying to make a CM into Belial will cost you more than Belial himself, and in a termie-list, that is no good at all.


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## exsulis (Jul 17, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Dude, Belial is a steal for his points! Terminator armor alone is worth approximately 25 points, let alone the cost of a master-crafted power sword, pair of lightning claws or thunder hammer and storm shield. If you were to attempt to "buy" Belial by taking a normal Company Master in his place, you'd pay an awful lot more than what Belial costs.
> 
> Oh, and to top it off he makes Deathwing Terminators Troops. That's awesome.


Compared to his 4th ed Sm counter parts it would place him about 10 points over, and one less attack as I recall. I don't have my book on me atm.

You don't buy a CM for his terminator armor, CC, or shooting. He is your cheap LD10 across the board, and some added CC in the mix. Master crafting isn't so useful as say a chaplain. The enemy unit is dead instead of a model.

He(the Company master) is what a lot of people asked for back in the day, a cheap LD buffing HQ. When you tack stuff on him to do other functions he becomes expensive. Its a lot like the Company veterans. Base they are awesome for their points but if you start adding a slew of gear, and they become more expensive than terminators. Its the same thing.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

exsulis said:


> Compared to his 4th ed Sm counter parts it would place him about 10 points over, and one less attack as I recall. I don't have my book on me atm.


Yeah... but that's another army. So it's sort've a poor comparison.



> You don't buy a CM for his terminator armor, CC, or shooting. He is your cheap LD10 across the board, and some added CC in the mix. Master crafting isn't so useful as say a chaplain. The enemy unit is dead instead of a model.


No, no. *You* don't buy a Company Master for his armor, shooting or whatever. Others might and probably do. Think of it this way - by buying a Company Master, giving him a power weapon and, say, a master-crafted weapon (not that it's legal, but for the sake of example...) you're getting part of the fighting power of a Chaplain while also getting your cheap Ld10 boost across the board.



> He(the Company master) is what a lot of people asked for back in the day, a cheap LD buffing HQ. When you tack stuff on him to do other functions he becomes expensive. Its a lot like the Company veterans. Base they are awesome for their points but if you start adding a slew of gear, and they become more expensive than terminators. Its the same thing.


Sure, if you go completely over the top then you'll end up with an overpriced model/unit.

Also, once again, Belial is mainly about taking Deathwing Terminators as Troops. Additionally, many of the Battle Company Dark Angel units suck anyway, so you're better off avoiding them and taking Fearless Deathwing/Ravenwing units.


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## exsulis (Jul 17, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Yeah... but that's another army. So it's sort've a poor comparison.


Yeah, that and the Black templars are the closest representation of points to Belial, which is why I use it as a comparison.



Katie Drake said:


> No, no. *You* don't buy a Company Master for his armor, shooting or whatever. Others might and probably do. Think of it this way - by buying a Company Master, giving him a power weapon and, say, a master-crafted weapon (not that it's legal, but for the sake of example...) you're getting part of the fighting power of a Chaplain while also getting your cheap Ld10 boost across the board.


Isn't meta gaming fun? True, I don't buy a CM for those but that was part of the design theory back in the day. Don't forget the extra attack with a CM in power armor, and Bolt pistol.



Katie Drake said:


> Sure, if you go completely over the top then you'll end up with an overpriced model/unit.


Exactly, CM's from a design stand point weren't really about doing other roles in the force than a LD boast. Sure they can do more but it get costly. 



Katie Drake said:


> Also, once again, Belial is mainly about taking Deathwing Terminators as Troops. Additionally, many of the Battle Company Dark Angel units suck anyway, so you're better off avoiding them and taking Fearless Deathwing/Ravenwing units.


The B man is a points sink. Its what he was always ment to be(in the current dex anyway) instead of say having your army lead by Ez, and Az. The DW as troops should have been linked(fluff wise) to Terminator armor, and/or Ez, and Az. 

Lol, a Battle Company isn't all bad; IE chaplains, company vets, and vindicators.


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## Trevor Drake (Oct 25, 2008)

exsulis said:


> The B man is a points sink. Its what he was always ment to be(in the current dex anyway) instead of say having your army lead by Ez, and Az. The DW as troops should have been linked(fluff wise) to Terminator armor, and/or Ez, and Az.


So you are telling me that Samiel, because he fills the same kind of 'void' as Belial is nothing but a points sink as well to take a biker army. IMO, Samiel would seem more the point sink, but you do get some nice things for his 40 additional points. So in that same frame of mind, simply giving a master a bike, if that was possible, would automatically make your list Ravenwing, instead of going with the fluff in which Belial is the company master of the deathwing, and Samaiel is company master of the ravenwing.

Belial serves one purpose, granting you to have a full Terminator Army. Thats it. Much like the other special characters. Granted for what he gives you, he is cheap as skittles for what you gain in meeting that end. Look at him, for 30 points more than a CM, you gain Termie armour, start off with MC PW, Storm Bolter, and the option to switch it out for FREE in exchange for twin claws or TH/SS. For what he DOES for the army and its roster, he is invaluable to people who want a full termy list. Trying to compare him to a company master is like comparing apples to oranges. You just cant do it fairly.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

exsulis said:


> Yeah, that and the Black templars are the closest representation of points to Belial, which is why I use it as a comparison.


I imagine Captain Sicarius would be better for comparison since the Templars were written during and for 4th edition, whereas the Dark Angels came not long before the arrival of 5th - you can tell just by looking that the Dark Angel Codex was written with 5th edition in mind. 



> Isn't meta gaming fun? True, I don't buy a CM for those but that was part of the design theory back in the day. Don't forget the extra attack with a CM in power armor, and Bolt pistol.


Yeah, but Belial gets an extra attack if the controlling player is smart enough to swap out the sword and bolter for lightning claws (really the best option, imo).



> Exactly, CM's from a design stand point weren't really about doing other roles in the force than a LD boast. Sure they can do more but it get costly.


They were meant to be support characters, much as the Chaplains and Librarians of the 5th edition Space Marines are. The idea was never to kit them out to be the destroyers of entire generations of toy soldiers, but to provide Ld enhancement to the army while being _decent_ fighters in their own right. Basically, to be equipped with like a power weapon and bolt pistol and go at the enemy.



> The B man is a points sink. Its what he was always ment to be(in the current dex anyway) instead of say having your army lead by Ez, and Az. The DW as troops should have been linked(fluff wise) to Terminator armor, and/or Ez, and Az.


:-/ No, he's not. I don't know how to make this any clearer to you. Belial is basically a swiss army knife. He's able to fight competently, lead an army by providing a leadership boost and allow you to take one of the better units in the game as Troops. That's not a points sink. If you want to talk about a points sink, let's discuss Ezekiel some more because that guy has to be one of the worst written characters since Sergeant Lysander back in 3rd edition. I also fail to see how Ezekiel or Azrael make more sense to lead a Deathwing army than the _Master of the Deathwing himself_. That's like saying that Azrael should allow you to take Ravenwing Attack Squadrons as Troops.



> Lol, a Battle Company isn't all bad; IE chaplains, company vets, and vindicators.


Yeah... three whole units out of an entire Codex.  Sad state of affairs.

Katie D


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## exsulis (Jul 17, 2008)

Samiel is a point sink in the fact that use * have * to use him.

Does Belial, or Samiel go on every mission that hunts the fallen? No, in fact based on the chapter history it is usually the chaplains that lead such assaults. Being the CM of those Companies doesn't mean that they will lead every assault. There are better ways of representing it on the battlefield.

The author of the DA dex wanted to force costly requirments on DW, and RW armies. If you didn't have to field those two characters, and instead could use just a HQ with that mode(TDA, or a bike) would you still field them? I'd bet it would vary depending on the person. Yes, leadership is based on the mission so a int chap leading a DW, or RW strike force isn't outlandish.

Belial isn't cheap as skittles, that is like comparing potatos to apples. B's points are based on the old 4th ed SM dex, and BT dex with a hit to CC(based off the same equipment). As I've pointed out he is more expensive with one less attack. So I don't see how that is cheap. DW as troops was a free facit of previous editions so why do you want to pay for something you already had? That's like buying a house, and then buying it again while you still owned it.


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## exsulis (Jul 17, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> I imagine Captain Sicarius would be better for comparison since the Templars were written during and for 4th edition, whereas the Dark Angels came not long before the arrival of 5th - you can tell just by looking that the Dark Angel Codex was written with 5th edition in mind.


BT to DA: 1 year

DA to 5th: 1 1/2 years

The DA was written with 5th on the drawing board. 



Katie Drake said:


> Yeah, but Belial gets an extra attack if the controlling player is smart enough to swap out the sword and bolter for lightning claws (really the best option, imo).


which changes the load out, and B is still down an attack compaired to his old counter parts.



Katie Drake said:


> They were meant to be support characters, much as the Chaplains and Librarians of the 5th edition Space Marines are. The idea was never to kit them out to be the destroyers of entire generations of toy soldiers, but to provide Ld enhancement to the army while being _decent_ fighters in their own right. Basically, to be equipped with like a power weapon and bolt pistol and go at the enemy.


Exactly, when you kit them out the CM become more expensive. But the base template was a cheap LD boast. Also they are decent at CC, not good by any stretch but decent.



Katie Drake said:


> :-/ No, he's not. I don't know how to make this any clearer to you. Belial is basically a swiss army knife. He's able to fight competently, lead an army by providing a leadership boost and allow you to take one of the better units in the game as Troops. That's not a points sink. If you want to talk about a points sink, let's discuss Ezekiel some more because that guy has to be one of the worst written characters since Sergeant Lysander back in 3rd edition. I also fail to see how Ezekiel or Azrael make more sense to lead a Deathwing army than the _Master of the Deathwing himself_. That's like saying that Azrael should allow you to take Ravenwing Attack Squadrons as Troops.


Lol, we're just coming from two different angles, and how we see this. I'd go with "Okay," and DA players spend too much for him. DW is still overcosted for a capped unit but the TDA as troops in 5th is doable build. :victory:

Ez took a couple bolt rounds to the knee caps. In addition to the Psy powers, they are just terrible.  You with a dice histogram force barrier essentally a 2+ save, and has killed him 100% of the time that I've used it. 

I'm not saying he(the B man) doesn't lead them, I'm saying TDA(and by virtue B), and the leaders of the chapter make more sense than a single character. The B man can't be every where, and its just as likely that someone in the inner circle would be leading them.



Katie Drake said:


> Yeah... three whole units out of an entire Codex.  Sad state of affairs.
> 
> Katie D


And much sadness ;(


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

exsulis said:


> BT to DA: 1 year
> 
> DA to 5th: 1 1/2 years
> 
> The DA was written with 5th on the drawing board.


Seriously doubtful. Codex: Dark Angels was either the first or second Codex to get the Fantasy treatment as far as layout is concerned, with special rules and fluff in the first half of the book and all the gaming info at the back. Since then, all of the books from late 4th edition right up until now have used the same layout. Think of it as the "5th edition layout".

Also, look at the cost differences on things, especially the vehicles. 35 point Rhinos are a big change from the 4th edition Marine book, as are the new costs for things like extra armor and lascannon sponsons on Predators. Either way though, we both have pretty much the same chance of being correct since neither one of us works on the design team. 





> Lol, we're just coming from two different angles, and how we see this. I'd go with "Okay," and DA players spend too much for him. DW is still overcosted for a capped unit but the TDA as troops in 5th is doable build. :victory:


Haha, okay. We'll have to agree to disagree. :good: Though I do agree with you on the whole Deathwing Terminators being overly expensive part.



> I'm not saying he(the B man) doesn't lead them, I'm saying TDA(and by virtue B), and the leaders of the chapter make more sense than a single character. The B man can't be every where, and its just as likely that someone in the inner circle would be leading them.


True enough, but then again that's GW's new philosophy regarding army variants for you. If you want to stand out from the vanillas, you need to take a special character of some kind.

Thanks for the interesting discussion!

Katie D


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## exsulis (Jul 17, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Seriously doubtful. Codex: Dark Angels was either the first or second Codex to get the Fantasy treatment as far as layout is concerned, with special rules and fluff in the first half of the book and all the gaming info at the back. Since then, all of the books from late 4th edition right up until now have used the same layout. Think of it as the "5th edition layout".


Eldar were the first with the slimed down layout, followed by DA, and CSM.

I just went digging for the ISBN of the BT dex so I could compare the when. BT ISBN 1841546852 was released in March 2005 so just under 2 years between DA(Feb 2007), and BT. Though I don't remember it being that long ago, which also puts very little released between them, and the DA(Tau, and Eldar?)




Katie Drake said:


> Also, look at the cost differences on things, especially the vehicles. 35 point Rhinos are a big change from the 4th edition Marine book, as are the new costs for things like extra armor and lascannon sponsons on Predators. Either way though, we both have pretty much the same chance of being correct since neither one of us works on the design team.


But at least we can have fun with it X)



Katie Drake said:


> Haha, okay. We'll have to agree to disagree. :good: Though I do agree with you on the whole Deathwing Terminators being overly expensive part.
> 
> True enough, but then again that's GW's new philosophy regarding army variants for you. If you want to stand out from the vanillas, you need to take a special character of some kind.
> 
> ...


Your welcome, thanks for putting up with me. :mrgreen:


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## gabool (Apr 3, 2008)

No offense but this makes no sense Fluff wise. The Dark Angels dont even trust other marines let alone the inquisition.


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