# Power swords or axes?



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

This is just a quick straw poll to see how serious people are about the new edition's differenciation of power swords and axes. Being a SW player, there are a lot of axes in my army that up to now just counted as power weapons. Would any of you be the sort who would insist that they are now axes and must make their attacks at I1? The reason I ask is because I am about to model a unit of Wulfen that will count as Death Company with PWs, and want to give some of them axes for the sake of modelling without them being deemed axes rules wise.

To me this change is absolutely pointless. If you want a PW that adds to your base strength and is good enough to hurt termies, you go with a power fist every time. Same with making a crozius a maul. It just seems to be tinkering for tinkering's sake on the part of GW.


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## ThoseKrazyKasrkin (Aug 2, 2011)

i don' use pws alot (playing guard) but it seems to be that these changes are to make you think about what your taking. Strike first and weak or hard and last.

Plus it always irked me that anyone with a power weapon could make terminators cry. Terminators. The ones designed for plasma reactors. Beaten by a sword.

Edit: For guard though its great. We normally strike last anyway so axes are great. Makes us strength 4 too : )


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## DaiKaiju (Aug 8, 2012)

I agree that in the majority of cases you might as well take a PW (or Thunder Hammer, but I'm biased), unless you REALLY don't have the extra handful of points.
You're still left in the same situation, I1 and trying to survive long enough to put it to use. Personally, I just throw Storm Shields on everything. But again, I'm very biased towards TH/SS everything


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

I'm still amazed people are trying to kill terminators in close combat instead of just swamping them with firepower.

Axes are cheaper than PFs, those points add up if you take multiples. 

Loadout depends on what you want that unit to be doing. Using the thought process of 'but what happens if I get into cc with termies' isn't very valid because it's not all that common.

Want to keep your initiative? sword

Have enough survivability to last to I1? axe/maybe pf (if you have enough attacks to make the cost worth spending)

Hate your life/lost a bet? Maul


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

It's gonna be 5 death company, so to maximise on their viciousness in assault I want to keep the I4 to make the most of being able to reroll their 25 attacks on the charge. There will be one PF in there for the more stubborn enemy, but as a rule they will be avoiding termies where possible.

Back to the question though. Would you be snotty about not using paower axes as axes even if the models had an axe?


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Back to the question though. Would you be snotty about not using power axes as axes even if the models had an axe?


if you clarify before the game whats going on i wouldnt care.

but if you did not clarify before the game then your SoL.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Depends on the situation: if its a painted unit then I'd give leeway, but if its unpainted its hardly difficult to pull a quick weapon swap. Time would also be a factor for me: if you are trialling a different weapon then go for it, if you are intending to use a sword as an axe for the rest of time then I would have an issue with it.

As for the choice... while initiative would be important, my own criteria would revolve more around unit type/numbers. With a small, elite unit with lots of PWs I would take mostly swords while with a big unit with a single sgt holding a PW I would mostly make it an axe to get a little more impact after using other guys to take the wounds from higher I's. Then again, with daemons, nids, necrons and IG its only really my guard where I have the option... and lets face it, I'm only not going to take an axe when I've upgraded to a fist


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

It's absolutely tinkering with things just for the hell of it.

That being said, nine out of ten times, I'd take the sword. I shrug and give my sergeants power fists still anyway, but in a unit that could take multiple special close combat weapons-- Vanguard Veterans, Death Company, Wolf Guard, Chosen, Chaos Terminators, etc... I think I'd do a mix of swords and axes. Possibly even a couple mauls. I sat and thought about it, and the strength bonus from the axe and the maul does sometimes outweigh their disadvantages. 

Everyone always measures things on their usefulness against Space Marines. And that's fine, since in the grand scheme of things, there are a lot of Space Marine armies out there. But if you have a balanced group (and I am fortunate to have such a group locally, where there are only a couple Space Marine players and everyone else has Guard, Orks, Eldar, Tau, Necrons, etc...), the axe and the maul suddenly feel more useful. The thing about the axe, despite it being I1, is that it does add to your strength, it's cheaper than a power fist, and you get an extra attack out of it (you have a pistol, right?)-- the AP2 is kind of a nice touch for when you run afoul of Meganobs, end up getting stuck in close combat with the odd Terminator unit, or things of that nature... ultimately, just wounding most stuff on 2's or 3's at the worst is worthwhile. Especially if it's buried in a unit and not on a squad leader that can be challenged. And in the case of Guardsmen, I'd be passing out power axes to every sergeant who could grab one. They're going last anyway, it's cheaper than a power fist by a good measure, and it still kills whatever you hit with it pretty reliably. 

So people hate on power mauls. Chaos Terminators are great with them. Why, you ask? Well, you have a unit of five or more Terminators. You can have a mix of power weapons in there-- the box gives you mauls and axes, and that's fine. The maul means you're wounding most stuff on 2's, and AP4 is good enough for anything that's not a Space Marine. It's basically like having a power fist that strikes at initiative at that point when you're fighting enemy infantry with the unit. And if you run into some Space Marines with them? Fine, you still wound on 2's, they get their save, but yours is better so you should be able to outlast them. Two mauls, two axes, and a chainfist out for a squad of five models is a great mix for Chaos Terminators, I think. Finally, the maul does one thing that makes me smile every single time-- you whap a Farseer between his pointy ears with the maul and it's high enough strength for Instant Death. Take that, you dirty pointy-eared witch! Sure, the Eldar player has done something wrong if you've got their Farseer in close combat, but that's not the point. Same idea applies to Archons, actually... they WILL be in close combat with you, and all it takes is for them to roll one 1, and that shadow field suddenly failed to stop them from getting krumped with a blunt object! 

Point is, I think each of the power weapon types has a home someplace in the game. The sword is obviously the best against Space Marines, but I think people have too quickly written off the axe and maul because they're so used to preparing to fight Space Marines and don't think enough about the other armies.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Poll Added

For me it depends upon the unit and their save. For anything with a 2+ save, go with an axe hammer or fist. Chances are you WILL survive long enough to use it so you may as well get the extra strength and AP

For everyone else, it really depends. Mostly swords though, unless your initiative was below 4 to begin with.

Any initiative 3 or under model should probably go with an axe regardless of their armor save unless you know you fight 'crons and Tau a lot


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I agree with TSoH about the maul- I think its great on CSM termies: you have a weapon that causes ID to guard/eldar and generally will ignore their saves (making it better then a sword/axe against T3 FNP units even without the easier wounding) and means the unit will carve up tanks more easily (though the chainfist is a must).
If you are playing against a MEQ army then just have your mauls at the front: they might not be quite so good in combat, but they'll be dying first anyway, protecting your more valuable weapons (and if its in combat they'll get to attack _before_ dying).

A bit of ID is always a nice bonus.


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## HOGGLORD (Jan 25, 2012)

I'm going on the same line as The Son of Horus, each has a place and each has a charm. 

Sword is the staple, it's a good, honest MeQ killer, good for chopping heavy infantry to bits.

Axe is more specialised, the tougher 2+ save totting warriors can use this against their opposing counterparts.

Maul is good for crushing T3 leaders and, for all non SM armies, the closest you can get to a thunder hammer. Nobody has mentioned that it is Concussive and at normal I and S5/6 in most cases, it's got a pretty decent chance of wounding.


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## Antonius (Jan 10, 2012)

Power Mauls for Imperial Guard. Reason: They are nearly IG PFs, with no loss in I and extra possible attacks (not bad against Necrons, Orks and Tau), and tbh the loss in armour punching is not that painful given that IG win by Dakka and sheer mass of dudes rather than special abilities - if termies need dispatching, we have plasma and melta for that (or BUCKETLOADS of lasguns/flamers). Spammed Power Mauls at S5 might be interesting in line infantry blobs.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

I've been considering the Power Axe the poor man's Power Fist, and so if points are tight I'll downgrade. That said, Power Fists are no longer automatically my go-to weapon, especially with challenges. If your PW champion kills their PF sergeant before he gets to strike, you are in a good situation--and if you're being challenged by their Chapter Master or something, your champion probably isn't going to get to strike with his PF anyways, so might as well throw on the cheaper PW...


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## BozlyLittle (Jul 3, 2011)

As for marines, I generally go sword. But thats if I go power weapon at all. I see it as "If I'm in combat, I'm foxtroted anyway." But if I say "Foxtrot, why not?" It's a sword, because I'd rather strike at initiative than at 1. I'd say it should realistically be -1 initiative. But that's me.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

I'm starting to like Power Mauls. Granted I can only get them on my Chaplains for now. (Hard to find Loyalist maces.) But S6 AP 4 handles almost everything quite nicely. It's following the wound saturation principle. The increased number of wounds typically means more unsaved wounds. Outside of the Marine world however, I'll take Warscythes or Klaives.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I voted for 'The whole thing is bullshit'


Because that's what it is.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

With my Sisters I have to say I like the maces better. They wound Marines on average about the same as swords (it's pretty close if you run the mathhammer), go before Power Fists in challenges (always a plus because it means the Superior with it has a better chance to survive than she would with an Axe), and without changing my list or models out I have a way of handling the numerous 4+ or worse save Xeno armies we have at my FGLS. 

So for me the Mace wins as an all-rounder that means I have a better balanced army without needing to constantly change things to be effective. Additionally Plasma Pistols aren't a bad idea in that they give a bonus attack, and give the Superior access to an AP2 shot.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Lucky you, collecting Minotaurs I have 4 sergeants with spears modelled from before the 6th edition change. Gogogo.

But yeah I don't get in CC. 1; They either want to be in cc or 2; I prefer to shoot. Ap2 weaponry is abundant thanks to plasma being available again in the meta, melta is ever popular, as are big ap2 blasts - democannons, magna melta, atc.

Alternatively they get engaged by likeminded units. AssTerms with Thams and a rerollable invuln.


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

I chose "Other" because "A variety of weapons" wasn't an option.

Anyway, most units I now run in my CSM's can't double-duty like they used to. And really axes only effect one lot of my units: My Zerkers. Which now need to get into combat ASAP since the Transport "rebalancing" so rarely do I, If ever, send them chasing after tanks like I did in 5th (I have one skull champion who killed 2 Chimera's and 3 Leman Russ still). 

In addition to this, with the "rebalancing" of Furious Charge as well it means that my Initiative edge is gone anyway.

So the reason I take an axe now is:

1) I still hit at Str 6 on the charge (wounds on 2's against most things) and 5 on the follow-up round, the kicker to offset Str x2 is that I Benefit from having 2 CCW's (you don't for PF's). Which means my Skull Champion is 5 attacks on the charge, 4 in subsequent rather than 4/3.

2) Powerfists get used more in my Plague Marine or Tank-Hunter Units. If you rely on PF's to kill MC's then you've got a serious issue. It's a no brainer for Tank-hunter units as they are usually sent after vehicles, need to be within 6 inches anyway and Str x 2 is far better than Str +1.

3) Finally the the real kicker is that I have 10pts to spend elsewhere. Since I've begun running lists with Cultists inside Aegis Defence lines (for dirt-cheap anti-flyer Coverage) the saved points add up. It can often mean the difference between getting an extra 10 man squad to man a gun rather than a PM / CSM squad.

Otherwise. Yeah the whole thing is bullshit because there is no sense of balance between the weapons in my opinion. Rather, it feels like something they decided to "Tack on" near the end of testing. 

I don't see why "Strike initiative 1" should be the unwieldy rule, instead I believe it should be a numerical rule (eg. Unwieldy 1) with the number corresponding to the initiative penalty. Axes would be "Unwieldy 1", Mauls "Unwieldy 2" etc etc. PF's would then be something like "Burdensome" or "Clumsy" which would be the "Strike at initiative 1". But alas, what do I know. God help adding rules which would allow a whole plethora of unique weapons being added to future codecies.


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## Pandora (Jun 19, 2012)

I'll stick with Agonisers. They may only be AP 3 but they always wound on a 4+; not bad for a S 3 model. But Dark Eldar only have access to Power Swords and all the good variants have actually been erratad to not be Power Weapons. A Klaive is an AP 2 ccw that adds one strength. So if I don't have points for Agonisers, I actually prefer Venom Blades over Power Swords. They're cheaper and while they don't have an AP, they always wound on a 2+.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Fun Fact: There's never not a reason to put a Force Axe on a Blood Angels Furioso Librarian
+1S AP2, and the initiative mod doesn;t apply to walkers or MCs. Our flying psychic dreadnoughts got free upgrade this edition.

And the default dready force weapon even looks like a glaive/halberd so is already an axe.


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