# Know No Fear- Best HH Novel?



## Baron Spikey

The simple answer is: Yes, dear god yes.

I loved Legion, as I've said many times before, but this supplants _Legion _with a swift kick to the groin to take it's place as my #1, mother-fucking, favourite novel in a series which has thrown out some quality.

*If you want bolter porn, read it- it's balls to the wall fighting and murder every step of the way.

*If you want an intelligent, in-depth look into the Ultramarines, Guilliman, and the Five Hundred Worlds of Ultramar (yes really that many) then read it. Even if you still dislike the Sons of Ultramar after reading this you can't help but acknowledge that they're no longer some bland wannabes, plus Guillimans thoughts on his fellow Primarchs are superb to read.

*You're wondering about the contradictions between earlier canon and the more recent stuff? Read it I implore you- it answers questions that have stymied the fluff heads on Heresy, and other forums, ever since the _Horus Heresy: Collected Visions_ first came out.
Things like the Edict of Nikea and the actual losses suffered by the Ultramarines during the Heresy (largely untouched my hairy arse) are discussed.

*You get cameos from some characters we met earlier in the series plus some fluff bombs that whilst not quite as large individually as _Legion_'s come thick and fast...the Jason and the Argonauts reference (Iason is an old spelling for Jason in case you might otherwise miss it) was surprising in it's context to say the least.

This is Baron Spikey telling you that if you have any shred of decency in you then you will read this book and join me in constructing an altar to Our Lord Abnett who rules us so Benevolently.


[mark: 96,311,954.20.24]


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## MontytheMighty

I've been jizzing in my pants for the whole day at work
I'm going to down this motherfucker from BL now!


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## Lord Mephiston

I DLed it yesterday and started reading it. Not too far in, but I gotto say, that is WAAAAAAAAAAY better than Prospero Burns. Actually this is at least the equivalent of Legion & HR.

At least Dan has realized that when we read books on Space Marines, we want our protagonists to be a God Damn Space Marine, not some pathetic little human philosopher...


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## Roninman

Lord Mephiston said:


> At least Dan has realized that when we read books on Space Marines, we want our protagonists to be a God Damn Space Marine, not some pathetic little human philosopher...


And so it starts again...


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## deathbringer

excellent, this an aurelian is where i shall begin my heresy catch up then. Haven't read a heresy novel since the first heretic due to financial constraints. However i've always loved the tactical rigidity of the ultramarines so if this is jizz in my pants good i shall most definitely begin my reading with it


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## Cowlicker16

Knew this would start some waves but damn...now I really can't wait for this to come in the mail


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## Lord Mephiston

Roninman said:


> And so it starts again...


It sure as hell does.


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## gen.ahab

Lord Mephiston said:


> I DLed it yesterday and started reading it. Not too far in, but I gotto say, that is WAAAAAAAAAAY better than Prospero Burns. Actually this is at least the equivalent of Legion & HR.
> 
> At least Dan has realized that when we read books on Space Marines, we want our protagonists to be a God Damn Space Marine, not some pathetic little human philosopher...












@ Baron,
Anyway, I completely agree; this was a fantastic addition to the series and I think I may ever re-read it. Really well done. I was especially fond of the information given to us about how the practice of painting the helmets red came to be. It was a nice touch.


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## Marcoos

Ordered? Check.
Email notification telling me it has been delivered? Check.
Working from home so that i can take the parcel from the postman's hands? Check.

Cant wait for this one, and the OP in this thread has just raised my expectation levels. Thank you sir!


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## Doelago

Lord Mephiston said:


> At least Dan has realized that when we read books on Space Marines, we want our protagonists to be a God Damn Space Marine, not some pathetic little human philosopher...


My god... :suicide: 

I so cannot wait for this book. Now, BL, FUCKING SHIP MY COPY!!?


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## Baron Spikey

gen.ahab said:


> @ Baron,
> Anyway, I completely agree; this was a fantastic addition to the series and I think I may ever re-read it. Really well done. I was especially fond of the information given to us about how the practice of painting the helmets red came to be. It was a nice touch.


[*DON'T* read the Spoiler if you haven't read the book]



It was amazing to find out that the Emperor might be one of the Perpetuals, and that Ollanius 'Pious' Persson is almost as old as him (without being a psyker in anyway) with only a couple of thousand years at most separating their births




After reading the ending I worked out the mark (bottom of Post #1) as it would stand in 40k, just a little inside nod for those who've read the book


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## Doelago

I am having a very hard time resisting that button... Maybe I should just ignore this section of the forum until I get my copy?


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## Lord Mephiston

LOL @ the tears at my comment. Come on guys, liven up a bit...


And I must say, the conversation between Guilliman and Thiel is absolutely wonderful. Very Very well written. Don't worry, Im not gonna give away any spoilers, but the line about "Minor" details is a very nice little wink at Dan's method of writing.

I am very impressed. So I must apologise for any critical remark I have made towards Dan in the past. I take my words back. The guy knows his Astartes, just seesm like he wasn't putting his heart into it earlier 

Edit : And the attack that begins the conflict. Oh My God. That is all I have to say to how it's described, and the sheer MAGNITUDE of it.


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## AgentOrange24

So...

For us Americans?


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## Baron Spikey

AgentOrange24 said:


> So...
> 
> For us Americans?


Not sure I understand the question?


I like the fact that one of the characters is religious, of course the immediate thought is that he worships the Emperor but then you find out that's extremely unlikely 

because he's almost as old as the Emperor (born in BCE) and considers him a peer rather than anything divine
 and he espouses a hatred of Chaos 

so it begs the question which God does he worship (he states 'his God' in the singular so it's not a pantheon he worships)...


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## Lord Mephiston

The best part of it has to be the attack. 

Makes Isstvan V look like child's play. The fact that the Ultramarines survived it and fought back succesfully speaks volumes about their and their Primarch's skill & courage...


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## Baron Spikey

Lord Mephiston said:


> The best part of it has to be the attack.
> 
> Makes Isstvan V look like child's play. The fact that the Ultramarines survived it and fought back succesfully speaks volumes about their and their Primarch's skill & courage...


I love the difference between it and 40k space battles- in 40k you've got escorts crumpling like tin cans to sustained bombardments. In Know No Fear replace 'escorts' with ginormous Battle Barges :shok:

Edit: I love how everything_ makes sense_, why certain ships aren't destroyed straight away, how the art on the cover is explained (helmetless Guilliman in space? What?!- the book explains and it makes sense, without resorting to 'cause i'm magic')


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## gen.ahab

Baron Spikey said:


> [*DON'T* read the Spoiler if you haven't read the book]
> 
> 
> 
> It was amazing to find out that the Emperor might be one of the Perpetuals, and that Ollanius 'Pious' Persson is almost as old as him (without being a psyker in anyway) with only a couple of thousand years at most separating their births
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After reading the ending I worked out the mark (bottom of Post #1) as it would stand in 40k, just a little inside nod for those who've read the book




That bit was completely new to me. Before I read this book I had no idea that there existed others as old as the Emperor. This book is just oozing with information, I have to agree that it is number one. The fluff addict in me is very happy.




Really? How did you manage to get it down to the day?




Baron Spikey said:


> I love the difference between it and 40k space battles- in 40k you've got escorts crumpling like tin cans to sustained bombardments. In Know No Fear replace 'escorts' with ginormous Battle Barges :shok:
> 
> Edit: I love how everything_ makes sense_, why certain ships aren't destroyed straight away, how the art on the cover is explained (helmetless Guilliman in space? What?!- the book explains and it makes sense, without resorting to 'cause i'm magic')




The atmospheric envelope was a brilliant touch 


Yeah, I just hid everything to be safe


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## Chompy Bits

Damn you Baron, you've given me a nerd boner for the Ultramarines, something I swore to myself never would happen. Seriously though, I need to get a copy of this. It's getting really hard not clicking on one of those little spoiler buttons.

Edit: Haha, I just realised I kept the boner gag going till the end of the post without even noticing.


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## gen.ahab

Baron Spikey said:


> Not sure I understand the question?
> 
> 
> I like the fact that one of the characters is religious, of course the immediate thought is that he worships the Emperor but then you find out that's extremely unlikely
> 
> because he's almost as old as the Emperor (born in BCE) and considers him a peer rather than anything divine
> and he espouses a hatred of Chaos
> 
> so it begs the question which God does he worship (he states 'his God' in the singular so it's not a pantheon he worships)...


I think I know who you are talking about, and I would guess he(it) is simply one of the old gods of Terra. 



I have recently heard talk about there being some sort of presence to the material universe. Something which actively hinders the warp and the creatures of the warp in this reality. Perhaps there is more aware than anyone has realized? Though, I would still bet it is just him worshiping one of the anncient gods of Terra.


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## Baron Spikey

gen.ahab said:


> Really? How did you manage to get it down to the day?


Well okay I got it down to a ball park figure...but I could probably get it down to the day if I put my mind to it. Well that's me sorted with something to do for the next hr :laugh:

Update: my intial figure in the 1st post was way out (by almost a thousand years). I haven't quite got it to the day (because I only know the yr of the Battle of Calth not the day it was fought but using 00:00 of day 1 of that yr all the way up to the most recent event in Codex: Space Marines (which is stated as occurring on 990999.M41) the mark should be pretty similar to this:

[mark: 96,311,954.20.24]



Did you notice M'Kar was in the book, before he ascended to daemonhood?:shok:


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## Callistarius

Theoretical: yes it is possibly the best HH book so far.
Practical: I will have to re-read this, along with my other favourites (FH, TS, Legion) to confirm my initial reaction of "OMFG this is brilliant".


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## Angel of Blood

And finished! Everything from now on will be in spoilers!!



Holy shit, I think I agree Baron, maybe the best book in the series, even toppling our beloved _Legion_. The book was just riddled with so many bit of fluff, nods and references to other events and plots. As you saw in my PM, the reveal of Olanius Pious was simply mind blowing, especially as not long ago on the 40k fluff board I denounced him as being retconned out of the fluff in place of a Custodian!

I can genuinely say I really, really like Guilliman now, and too anyone who's seen my posts in the past, you can understand this is a huge change! Though I admit my feelings on him have been changing since _The First Heretic_. Still hate 40k Ultramarines, but my god aren't the 30k ones awesome? Can't even begin to fault them. Guilliman himself was just so interesting, seeing him lose it when speaking to Lorgar was a particularly excellent part. Like you said, his musings on the other Primarchs were also great, quite like how he thinks with either Dorn, Sanguinius, Russ or Ferrus, he could win any war or conflict.

How has no one mentioned poor Tarik?? Now Tormageddon(co-incidence that its the same name as the deamon ship in _Salvations Reach_? I think not). Though I was a little hazy on what this meant, is Tarik now unwillingly a deamon of the gods? Makes you look back at the picture of him in _Collected Visions_ where he is very much chaos aligned. If that is his fate, I feel dreadfully sorry for him, even more so for Loken should he find out!

Seeing Samus rear his whispering head was also a nice twist.

I really should have made notepad points as I read, as I knows theres more!


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## Doelago

To buy the Ebook, or not to buy... THAT is the question...


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## Baron Spikey

I knew you'd love it :biggrin:



How weird was it to find out Oll had learnt to fight with a bayonet by fighting for the French in the Napoleonic War? That was *really* left field.
And the throwaway comment that basically confirmed that Jason and the Argonauts was an actual voyage not just an ancient tale? Yeah wasn't expecting that one.
I did find it to be delicious how Guilliman doesn't particularly like either of the Primarchs who actually end up supporting him after the Scouring, nice touch there.


p.s there's something pleasing about knowing we've read it before any of Heresy's reviewers got their 'advance' copies.


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## AgentOrange24

Baron Spikey said:


> Not sure I understand the question?
> 
> 
> I like the fact that one of the characters is religious, of course the immediate thought is that he worships the Emperor but then you find out that's extremely unlikely
> 
> because he's almost as old as the Emperor (born in BCE) and considers him a peer rather than anything divine
> and he espouses a hatred of Chaos
> 
> so it begs the question which God does he worship (he states 'his God' in the singular so it's not a pantheon he worships)...


Amazon has it as Feb 28th.

Blacklibrary.com wants to charge me 15 dollars for shipping?

I mean, I love the series, and your opinion on the book I take highly...but not THAT highly.


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## Doelago

AgentOrange24 said:


> Blacklibrary.com wants to charge me 15 dollars for shipping?


I dont know how it is for your location, but at least for me it is just to throw a second book into the bargain and get free shipping.


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## Baron Spikey

AgentOrange24 said:


> Amazon has it as Feb 28th.
> 
> Blacklibrary.com wants to charge me 15 dollars for shipping?
> 
> I mean, I love the series, and your opinion on the book I take highly...but not THAT highly.


That's the advantage of buying directly from BL, you can get the books weeks in advance of any where else- even better for ebook readers as the novels are cheaper and there's no shipping costs :grin:


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## AgentOrange24

Baron Spikey said:


> That's the advantage of buying directly from BL, you can get the books weeks in advance of any where else- even better for ebook readers as the novels are cheaper and there's no shipping costs :grin:


Bah!

I'll just wait for the physical copy and save on the shipping.

Not a big fan of ebooks. Prefer actually holding them, and I have my collection to consider. The line of HH on my bookshelf is so pretty.


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## Angel of Blood

Baron Spikey said:


> I knew you'd love it :biggrin:
> 
> p.s there's something pleasing about knowing we've read it before any of Heresy's reviewers got their 'advance' copies.


Haha indeed! But come on 

What about poor Tarik!  am I the only one who feels saddened by this horrific fate of one of our/my favourite loyalists??


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## Doelago

Ouh these bloody spoilers! I should cease visiting this section at once... But I cannot, and instead come here for more... More spoilers...


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## Sacred Feth

What is a Perpetual?


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## Baron Spikey

Sacred Feth said:


> What is a Perpetual?


Read the book and find out 

OR



They're a group (though they don't really form a faction so group might be too strong a word) of immortals, and unlike Astartes, Primarchs, Malcador, or John Grammaticus they aren't so because they were genetically engineered or psychically sustain themselves. The Emperor is insinuated as being a Perpetual, one of the oldest of them though Ollanius is not much younger if he is infact younger (also Ollanius isn't a psyker).


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## Sacred Feth

Baron Spikey said:


> Read the book and find out
> 
> OR
> 
> 
> 
> They're a group (though they don't really form a faction so group might be too strong a word) of immortals, and unlike Astartes, Primarchs, Malcador, or John Grammaticus they aren't so because they were genetically engineered or psychically sustain themselves. The Emperor is insinuated as being a Perpetual, one of the oldest of them though Ollanius is not much younger if he is infact younger (also Ollanius isn't a psyker).


I'm near half way through the book but can't contain my curiosity 

Were they in fluff prior to this novel? I've never heard of them before and was wondering as to their origins on ancient earth (Like if they were related to the mass suicide shaman = Emperor background, not sure if that was scrapped though).


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## Baron Spikey

Sacred Feth said:


> I'm near half way through the book but can't contain my curiosity
> 
> Were they in fluff prior to this novel? I've never heard of them before and was wondering as to their origins on ancient earth.


As far as I'm aware they're not in any prior fluff.



Wasting time seeing if I can work out which one of the Argonauts was Ollanius...


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## AgentOrange24

You guys are very seriously tempting me to have this book flown across the ocean.


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## Riga

So there's one guy I loved and it's that dude 

Spoiler:
Sgt Thiel - the one with the red helmet,sitting by himself bored out of his mind, getting ready to be told to clean the toilets by the Primarch and then the whole mess starts.I can just picture him looking out the window at the Word Bearers opening fire and looking down, sighing,putting on his helmet,grabbing a weapon from the wall and thinking " Get reprimanded for suggesting this they said.This day is unthinkable they say.We will never ever fight our own brothers the say...Goddammit!I should have been in the Alpha Legion..."
An then I think he saves the battle barge , rescues the primarch and helps to capture the orbital station while all the time wearing the mark of shame.Yeah Mondays suck...:shok:


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## Baltar

1: I hate Dan Abnett.

2: I hate Ultramarines with every fibre of my being and wish that they'd all been destroyed in the heresy, so feel an enormous urge to give hate to this book.

Having said that, I'll be reading it. Hopefully it will actually feature Word Bearers rather than simply being a book dedicated to bumming the blue dick heads. I doubt it, though. I imagine this will just be another PB, where Abnett tries to make a chapter seem cooler than it really is.

I get the sense from this thread that fanboyism has been splooged all over the place. It will be tough the beat the likes of First Heretic, Deliverance Lost, or Fulgrim IMO.

Those three nailed it. I mean BOOM.

The thought of a book written by Abnett, and a book also featuring the blue boredom patrol, being better than any of those three books seems utterly ridiculous.

It will require a reading before I come back here and casually dismiss this as a rampant fanboy fest.


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## Baron Spikey

Baltar said:


> It will require a reading before I come back here and casually dismiss this as a rampant fanboy fest.


Yay Baltar's back to his vaguely 'hipster-ish anti-fanboy' old self. If he doesn't like something then anyone who does must be a fanboy.

That's some good knowledge you laid down on us.


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## Baltar

Oh, come on. It's not like the Ultramarines and Dan Abnett are not THE two things across the whole GW fanbase that are prone to fanboy bandwaggoning.

And now we have a book with both.

I don't see anyone staying objective.

This is evidenced by the fact that, somehow, people are now saying that they have love for the 30k Ultras, and yet I don't meet many people who have anything other than hate for Battle for the Abyss. It was a shit book. The Ultramarines were shit and boring in it.

Abnett has been injected directly into the Ultramarines. It could go one of two ways: It could be like Abnett's good work (Brothers of the Snake), or like his enormously overrated work (Gaunt. Legion. Prospero Burns - all of which were like paint drying).

Considering plenty of fanboys froth at the mouth over some of his boring, bland crap, I'll definitely have to read it before being able to muster any enthusiasm.

If it was written by ADB, this would be a different story: I'd already be wielding a stonker purely out of the anticipation of walking to by local store to buy it.


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## Baron Spikey

Baltar said:


> Oh, come on. It's not like the Ultramarines and Dan Abnett are not THE two things across the whole GW fanbase that are prone to fanboy bandwaggoning.
> 
> And now we have a book with both.
> 
> I don't see anyone staying objective.
> 
> This is evidenced by the fact that, somehow, people are now saying that they have love for the 30k Ultras, and yet I don't meet many people who have anything other than hate for Battle for the Abyss. It was a shit book. The Ultramarines were shit and boring in it.
> 
> Abnett has been injected directly into the Ultramarines. It could go one of two ways: It could be like Abnett's good work (Brothers of the Snake), or like his enormously overrated work (Gaunt. Legion. Prospero Burns - all of which were like paint drying).
> 
> Considering plenty of fanboys froth at the mouth over some of his boring, bland crap, I'll definitely have to read it before being able to muster any enthusiasm.
> 
> If it was written by ADB, this would be a different story: I'd already be wielding a stonker purely out of the anticipation of walking to by local store to buy it.


Well to allay some of your fears it does feature the Word Bearers, and the various characters from that Legion, very prominently. And I've always liked the Ultramarines, well ok I've never disliked them might be more accurate, and just like the WB in TFH weren't like the ones in BftA, the UM in this aren't the same either.


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## Baltar

The HH series has had a huge upswing recently, IMO.

After Fulgrim, I seem to have a hazy memory about it, and I think it's because a bunch of the books were a bit bland. Didn't give a crapmonkey about the TS or SW, really. I literally don't remember. I seem to recall a short story about Custodians that was win.

Then there was First Heretic, which was like snorting coke from a Victoria's Secret model's cleavage.

Then I seem to remember The Outcast Dead, which I kinda liked. People had hate, but whatever.

Then Deliverance Lost, which was like finding out that your GF arranged a threesome for you both with her friend that you don't know, and then you find out that her friend is Natalie Portman.

The good books all had love threads posted. I don't see anything differentiating this one from the rest, other than that Abnett and Ultramarines are involved - and that means mandatory fanboylove.

Best book in the series? I doubt it strongly. It's a huge claim.


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## Baron Spikey

Baltar said:


> Best book in the series? I doubt it strongly. It's a huge claim.


It's a qualitative statement, I made the thread and I consider it to be the best book in the series to date- people can feel free to disagree once they've read the book, but that won't alter my view. :thank_you:


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## Mossy Toes

Honestly, I've been looking forward to this greatly. I have great faith in Dan, especially after _Legion _and _Prospero Burns_.

I also feel like Ultramarines get a bad rap. They're the poster, go-to type of Marine, sure. Perhaps they shouldn't be given the limelight as much as they have been--especially as unremarkably as they've been portrayed.

Fans operate on the assumption that the Ultramarines are the bog standard, no-frills legion/chapter. They are the paint-by-numbers basics. Heck, they haven't even been painted in.

I don't think they do. I'm no raving Ultramarines fanatic, but I think they have some serious potential for greatness. Ultramarines aren't the "most typical" group of marines--they're the "most disciplined," the best tacticians and most precise strategists. I think they could be taken strongly in the direction of the Emperor's Children early on in Fulgrim: perfectionists, but rather than in the sense of individual combatants, in moving as a force and fighting as an army. They are the most clipped, precise, and disciplined of Legions. They have the most streamlined recruitment system and logistics trains.

Do you think that the Codex Astartes, in its 20k page glory (or however long it is), is a limiting and restrictive document? Guilliman, the greatest strategic mastermind in the Imperium's history, isn't one to rule out daring or risky courses of action: those are, often, precisely what is necessary. Does Sun Tzu say "take no risks; hunker down in your fortresses and minimize uncontrollable factors" in the Art of War? Warp, no. Perhaps the Codex tells you not to do something, but for good reason: it's only limiting in that it accounts for every situation and offers the optimum result. If you act differently than it dictates, you are sacrificing efficiency.

Sure, this hope of mine isn't exactly helped by some of what is put out: Uriel is bland but noble and departs from the Codex; Sicarius is an arrogantly condescending prick who "removes his helmet so that the beast would fear him," or whatever (in _AoBR_); Ultramarines the movie... wasn't that great a portrayal. Still, I think the potential for greatness is there.

Look at Aaron's portrayal of Guilliman in TFH: cold, disciplined, and calculating. Look at the exercises he sets his men through in _Age of Darkness_ (might be speaking out my rear, here--haven't read that one yet). That's why I have high hopes for _Know No Fear_. I want to read the precision response of the largest legion when caught completely flat-footed--and how they come back from that to turn one of the largest potential disasters of the Heresy into a resounding success. For a given value, that is, of success.

I want the Ultramarines to stop being treated like "smurfs" and to start being seen as the excelsior exemplars of Marine-kind. I have faith that Dan can do this--after all, he started Prospero Burns with a similar concept. Look how he changed the portrayal of the Space Wolves from "drunken wolf-vikings...in SPAAACE" to "The Rout; the Vylka Fenryka; feral, barely-restrained killers capable of _anything_."


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## Baltar

Nope. SW still Gimli in power armour.

Codex Astartes?

Reason for the demise of the Imperium, frankly.

I just want the book to be totally unbiased. I want the book to say exactly what happened, and to do it well. What I don't want even a hint of is any aggrandisement of ANY particular chapter.

Abnett likes bigging up his favourite chapters. For this, he gets nothing but hate from me.


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## MontytheMighty

Baltar said:


> I seem to recall a short story about Custodians that was win.


which was by Abnett


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## Gree

As for Know No Fear is. I am of mixed feelings about it. I enjoyed it but I found many of the retcons pointless, such as the Five Hundred worlds retcon. I saw no plot point to that at all and no explanation for how the Ultramarines go back to 8 systems.

It’s a bolter porn novel . The characters don’t really grow much due to the plot pacing. But that’s not exactly a bad thing. This is the kind of novel I’ve been waiting for to portray Guilliman and the Ultramarines as suitably awesome, as well as giving a plausible reason for the Ultramarines inactivity during the Heresy.

Overall a good novel, but the opposite of Prospero Burns IMO.


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## Wusword77

Baltar said:


> Oh, come on. It's not like the Ultramarines and Dan Abnett are not THE two things across the whole GW fanbase that are prone to fanboy bandwaggoning.


Really, I thought Ultramarines HATE was the thing that everybody jumped on the bandwagon for?

That's generally the only thing I see when the UM's come up in a thread.


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## Angel of Blood

Funny how you deride everyone for being Abnett fanboys, yet you yourself are a raging ADB fanboy who froths at the mouth at his very name


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## Bane_of_Kings

Might be tempted to get an Ebook of this if my review copy doesn't turn up soon. EDIT: 3999 posts... that means, one more until four-thousand. Holy Crap. Have I really spent that much time on Heresy?


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## Lord Mephiston

Thankfully it seems like this book's going to be the one that silences the Ultramarines critics, who're calling them stuff like "Smurfs" & "Overhyped", "Boring", "1-dimensional" etc.

There's a reason the Ultramarines are considered to be the most efficient out of all the Loyalist Legions, folks


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## Baltar

Lord Mephiston said:


> Thankfully it seems like this book's going to be the one that silences the Ultramarines critics, who're calling them stuff like "Smurfs" & "Overhyped", "Boring", "1-dimensional" etc.
> 
> There's a reason the Ultramarines are considered to be the most efficient out of all the Loyalist Legions, folks


Would that reason actually be because they outnumber everyone else at least 3/1, and nothing more?

Yes.


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## Baltar

Angel of Blood said:


> Funny how you deride everyone for being Abnett fanboys, yet you yourself are a raging ADB fanboy who froths at the mouth at his very name


Yeah, but at least I'm a discerning fanboy. I actually go where the quality is, rather than just going along with everyone else on the waggon 

I'm going to wait for something to *actually* be good before starting the fanrage, rather than just see that it's blue and got Abnett written all over it.

When the cover art and blurb for this book came out, some friends and I sat and looked at the entry on the BL website and we all basically had the same comment months before it came out: "This will be overrated."

Then. Sure enough. People read it. And now we have a thread on the internet sensationalising the book beyond all credibility...

Nice.


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## Lord Mephiston

Baltar said:


> Would that reason actually be because they outnumber everyone else at least 3/1 and nothing more?
> 
> Yes.


No.


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## Baltar

Lord Mephiston said:


> No.


Pretty much.

Your praise was basically a totally incredible statement without any basis whatsoever.

I could make the exact same claim about, say, the Imperial Fists (for example).

Because just saying 'they are the most efficient' doesn't even *mean* anything.

It's the kind of bland crap people throw around when the fanboyrage starts when it comes to the ultramarines. It's exactly why there is a reason to hate them SO much.

It's like this:

Thread starts.

Is pretty sensational to begin with.

Then people start getting whipped up into a hype frenzy.

Then the baseless, nonsensical sentences appear and all hope is lost.

KEEP IT REAL, PEOPLE.


----------



## Mossy Toes

Well, they outnumber the Word Bearers 3:2, or by just 50%, and the Word Bearers have the advantage of total surprise, not to mention (as stated by Aaron and Dan in advance) a vastly larger human soldier support contingent than the Ultramarines. Oh, and daemonic patrons about whom the Ultras know nothing. Horus, master strategist, trusted Lorgar to be capable of taking out the Ultramarines, size disadvantage or not. Your exaggeration of the Ultramarine's numbers does you little credit.

I found _Prospero Burns_ to be one of my absolute favorite Heresy books, personally; sure, it has a jarring, too-long introduction and has a misleading title--but apart from that? It's the most cerebral, intelligent Heresy book to date. It's just about the nearest thing BL has put out to honest-to-goodness literature, rather than fun, pulpy action books. I love it.

Similarly, AD-B has gone on record saying that _Legion_ is his favorite Heresy novel.

Your dismissals of them and Abnett's work in general is fine. Sure, we can agree to disagree in terms of "quality," which is a subjective measure in any case. But your vehemence in pressing this point of view and your negative attitude on this thread do you no favors.


----------



## Baltar

PB was just a jizrag where Abnett was given free reign to desparately attempt to make the SW into something other than Gimli in a space suit. Failed. That's how they were before, that's how they are now, and that's how they always will be - Long live William King (that's THE King, to you). People either love it or hate it. I was indifferent, but found it boring. I don't need BL to give me great literature. I can just go and read gret literature if I need great literature.

Legion was okay. John Grammaticus saved the book. All the crap about the Alpha Legion didn't work for me. Deliverance Lost shed new light on the Alpha Legion, and I felt Gav Thorpe covered them far better than Abnett could. Abnett just didn't seem to get it. Gav really brought to light their true covert abilities. Abnett tried to portray they as some sort of stealthy silent marines: No. An 8ft power armoured marine is anything but stealthy. I think he seemed to hugely confuse literal stealth and the covert, secretive nature of the Alpha Legion. Misdirection, etc. Instead, what we got was a bunch of purple fools, tiptoeing around in power armour. Pathetic.

My vehemence is currently all I have to keep the fanyboys from tipping the balance and plunging the entire universe into a giant vat of blue, Abnett coloured paint. At least in my own mind. People don't even stop and think what they are typing. One moment it's "gosh this book was awesome", and the next we have "omgz this chapter is the best at 'x'" without any basis at all. Happens every time.

Just imagine a thread with no cynicism. Every single person in the whole universe, all posting "omgzorz blah blah blah, amazing" to absolutely *everything*, just because it's hugely popular. Christ. The world would become one inane, babbling, flesh pile in no time. A place where nobody even pauses for a nanosecond to decide for themselves.

People say I'm negative. They just don't get it. If you make everything awesome - nothing at all is awesome. That's how it works.


----------



## Lord Mephiston

Baltar said:


> Pretty much.


Yes. Buy the Ebook or the paperback and read it.


----------



## Baltar

I'll get the actual book 

Don't get me started on 'ebook'.


----------



## Sacred Feth

I dare say that Heresy era Ultramarines have become one of my favourite Legions and Guilliman is ranked up there with my favourite Primarchs after this book C:


----------



## sadLor

I'm going to go against the majority. I thought it was a good book but it wasn't great. It's not in my top 5 but it's not the worst of the Horus Heresy. I kinda regret getting this over Deliverance Lost.

The Pros:
The action is fantastic... it's better than most of the Space Marine Battle books.
The flow is great. Most of the action takes place in less than a day. The author has great pacing and there wasn't a part in the book where I thought "No way that could happen so fast or why are they so slow?" Good pacing.

The Cons:
The characterization...oh man the characterization. There's quite a huge cast for such a short book. It's one of the shorter books in the series. Having a huge cast isn't the problem... The problem is every character is so cookie-cutter. There's nothing unique and memorable about most of the characters. The ONLY characters I cared about were the Ultramarine under censure and the lady magos... I was a little disappointed at the portrayal at Guilliman as well. In books like Fulgrim, Thousand Sons, Prospero Burns...we really get to see how each primarch is special and has his own character quirks and traits. 

Guilliamn is... good at multitasking? That's all I really got from the book.

This is all just my opinion. I enjoyed the book and I recommend it but I would say temper your expectations. Don't go in expecting a masterpiece and you'll find an enjoyable read.


----------



## Baltar

Sounds like an objective opinion to me.

At a pure guess, I bet that post has finally separated the woods from the trees in this thread. Overhype as usual.


----------



## MontytheMighty

I'm a Smurfs fan (won't deny it) and I'm loving this book 

Legion and Prospero Burns weren't my cup of tea (mainly because I'm not fans of either of those legions) but Know No Fear is certainly entertaining me
I honestly think the currently most [email protected] legions are SW, AL, and NL. Ironically, UM get the most hate. I don't think there's a "I love the UM" bandwagon, quite the opposite really.


----------



## Baltar

I think that's fair, despite what I said earlier. There is probably more hate for UM than there is love. It'd be nice to get a fresh perspective on them, which is what I am looking forward to the most from this book.

What I hate, though, is when people read a book and start claiming that 'chapter x is better at y' despite all chapters being full of space marines and all space marines inherently being awesome at 'x'. Now, sure, each chapter has its own niche. That's a truism. Much like the primarchs. My point is that I reckon certain authors are better at conveying a completely unbiased point of view while not favouring their legion of choice in the book. It's one reason I like ADB. I personally don't believe that Abnett sticks to that at all - He loves the UM and the SW, and went to town with them (or so I believe). The aggrandisement involved is irritating, and I think it detracts from the HH series.

It's what leads to lines such as the one we see in the UM movie "the greatest of all space marines, ultramarines' or whatever the actual line was. It's fucking annoying.

I have my favourite chapter too, but you don't see me bumming them on here (I hope).

I'm not really sure where you are coming from with NL love. I haven't seen *any* love for the Night Lords yet!!! In fact, I'd rate them as one of the underappreciated! They are right in there with the White Scars. Yet to get their time.

Be fair on the Alpha Legion - before the HH series, what was there? They got very little love. Very little.

You're bang on about the SW. Massive love from all directions. Too much love, someone like me may say. I think everyone eats that feral shit right up. Can't blame. Seems fair to have a taste. What grates is when they decide to love all of that, but then Abnett comes along and starts trying to portray them as secretly super intelligent and it all being an act. FFS, either be a fan of the rampant space vikings or don't - don't drop the 'hidden intellectuals' bomb to make yourselves feel better about being into the brutal shit. Just hold your head up high and be into the space dwarves with pride.

I want to know more about Guilliman. When he made an appearance in First Heretic, he was a bit of an asshole in a really good way. He basically turned up and smirked like a prick at the Word Bearers punishment. Showed character, where before he'd just been... what? Pretty much no portrayal before that at all. Master tactician? Yeah, so what. Horus was said to be that too. Amongst the primarchs, who isn't? (okay, so one or two exceptions). NOW, we actually start to see some personality behind the name. I think someone mentioned something similar about Sicarus. There seems to be some inherent smugness about the UM, and it'd be very nice to see more of that.... It's almost like they are emerging as a loyalist version of the Emperor's Children. Perfectionist and smug about it.

Actually having serious character would be a nice change for the UM. Their chapter doesn't *really* have some overriding niche like some of the other chapters (although the same is true of other chapters aswell), so to compensate there should be some saucy charisma or something. If they were all arrogant pricks, I would love it.

However, if they all turn out to be benevolent do-gooders, the book is going directly into the bin and written off as an Abnett fest.


----------



## sadLor

MontytheMighty said:


> I'm a Smurfs fan (won't deny it) and I'm loving this book
> 
> Legion and Prospero Burns weren't my cup of tea (mainly because I'm not fans of either of those legions) but Know No Fear is certainly entertaining me
> I honestly think the currently most [email protected] legions are SW, AL, and NL. Ironically, UM get the most hate. I don't think there's a "I love the UM" bandwagon, quite the opposite really.


I don't think being a fan of a Legion should determine whether someone enjoys a book. If it's a good book, then it's a good book. I don't care for the Word Bearers at all but I thoroughly enjoyed the First Heretic. I despise the Space Wolves (buncha slobbering bullies in space) but I loved Prospero Burns.

I really wanted to love Know No Fear. I've always liked the UM and it was interesting playing as them in the PS3 Space Marine game. But as it is, Know No Fear didn't really differentiate them enough from other Legions. That's not necessarily a bad thing I suppose. It's really hard having 18 Legions being completely different from each other.


----------



## Roninman

Havent still starting reading this book, just few days ago started Deliverance Lost but im highly interested if Ultramarines get some true characted and justice done to them at last. Graham's Uriel series has been totally rubbish last 3 books and they look just like nice guys.

Ive always envisioned Ultramarines proud and arrogant especially when operating outside their Ultramar area. Their superior tactics and strategy is almost impossible for many authors to write in convincing way. Usually things just get passed as "its according to Codex" and author should be military strategist if he wants to make some true justice to them. But aside their "speciality" im definately more interested if we find finally some good characters and especially story. 

Baltar was right that every Marines should be about equals on their combat skills, they just are different maybe in tactics, logistics or whatever and it wont go nowhere to start threads which Legion is better. I have already read good things on Word Bearers and if finally Ultramarines get some real love im happy. So far they have been too much nice guys.

And last, negative comments usually have more info of why this book is bad and so on. Many posts are just filled "oh this is so great" and thats it.


----------



## sadLor

Baltar said:


> However, if they all turn out to be benevolent do-gooders, the book is going directly into the bin and written off as an Abnett fest.



Minor spoilers from Aurelian the short story and Know No Fear.





This was one thing that disappointed me. In the short story Aurelian, the demon tells Lorgar of 2 possibilities. That Guilliman secretly hated Lorgar and suspected he was a traitor in waiting OR that Guilliman never hated Lorgar but simply found it difficult to find common ground with him.

I personally loved that ambiguity... But it's revealed in Know No Fear that Guilliman was forced into the role on Manchuria and wanted to reconcile with Lorgar. 

I wouldn't go as far as say they are benevolent do-gooders. But they're definitely portrayed as the civilized well-behaved sons of the Emperor. Good or bad? That's up to you


----------



## Mossy Toes

Baltar said:


> I want to know more about Guilliman. When he made an appearance in First Heretic, he was a bit of an asshole in a really good way. He basically turned up and smirked like a prick at the Word Bearers punishment. Showed character, where before he'd just been... what? Pretty much no portrayal before that at all. Master tactician? Yeah, so what.





sadLor said:


> Minor spoilers from Aurelian the short story and Know No Fear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This was one thing that disappointed me. In the short story Aurelian, the demon tells Lorgar of 2 possibilities. That Guilliman secretly hated Lorgar and suspected he was a traitor in waiting OR that Guilliman never hated Lorgar but simply found it difficult to find common ground with him.
> 
> I personally loved that ambiguity... But it's revealed in Know No Fear that Guilliman was forced into the role on Manchuria and wanted to reconcile with Lorgar.
> 
> I wouldn't go as far as say they are benevolent do-gooders. But they're definitely portrayed as the civilized well-behaved sons of the Emperor. Good or bad? That's up to you


Myself, personally, on a close reading of the Monarchia scene in _The First Heretic_ didn't find Guilliman to be very condescending or dickish at all. It was mostly Lorgar projecting and inferring those emotions, or accusing his brother of them. Guilliman actually did very little.

My sense of it was that he's not the personal, buddy-buddy guy--he's the logical, isolated "perfect world" tactician, not the leader of men that Horus is. He was incapable of showing sympathy or empathy for Lorgar because of his purist personality and the task he had been assigned, which left him sort of floundering for things to say, and Lorgar, overwrought, interprets his actions as aloof condescension, not Roboute simply doing his duty. A personal spin on things, perhaps, but... who knows? Perhaps another rereading of that scene is in order.


----------



## Cowlicker16

I've only just started and not much happening so far but like I said, it's only the beggining. In the end it will take a lot to make me not appreciate the fact that this is the freakin battle of Calth!! I imagine it's going to be like Fear to Tread, shining light on the event is more then enough to make me appreciate the book regardless of who is writing it. I believe that with what they're being allowed to tell we shouldn't be zoned in on who is writing it and just love the history that is written.


----------



## Baron Spikey

The Ultramarines do come off as inherently disposed towards arrogance, not stubborn arrogance I hasten to add they don't refuse to change if the circumstances do. But more than once the UM, and Guilliman, muse that the WB have been sent to campaign with them to enhance the Sons of Colchis image by fighting alongside the glorious Sons of Ultramar, and Guilliman even muses that occasionally he feels guilty for being so awesome...that's fucked up, in a good way. He actually thinks that some of his brothers don't like him because he's so great.


----------



## ckcrawford

Baron Spikey said:


> The Ultramarines do come off as inherently disposed towards arrogance, not stubborn arrogance I hasten to add they don't refuse to change if the circumstances do. But more than once the UM, and Guilliman, muse that the WB have been sent to campaign with them to enhance the Sons of Colchis image by fighting alongside the glorious Sons of Ultramar, and Guilliman even muses that occasionally he feels guilty for being so awesome...that's fucked up, in a good way. He actually thinks that some of his brothers don't like him because he's so great.


.... I'm already hating the novel and I haven't even read it...:biggrin:

Hopefully as you say, I like it anyway. In any case hopefully I read about a lot of dead Ultramarines.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Night Lords dont have alot of love? Fuck off lol, There are more raving Night Lord and Kurze fanboys on here then any other Legion, you dare say anything against their Legion and by extension ADB and they go ape shit. They have their own book series in 40k, they've got quite a nice amount of screen time in The First Heretic and Savage Weapons and of course the audiobooks. I would say on these boards that the Night Lord fans along with the Space Wolf ones are probably the most vocal and numerous, openly at least.


----------



## Baltar

Frankly, if that's the case, it shouldn't surprise me. They dropped well under my radar.

They need all the love they can get - the Night Lords are shit 

All they have going for them is a totally badass post-heresy paint job.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Baltar said:


> My point is that I reckon certain authors are better at conveying a completely unbiased point of view while not favouring their legion of choice in the book. It's one reason I like ADB.


I think ADB shows the NL plenty of love...to the point it's starting to annoy the Blood Angels fan in me (see http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=103838&page=3)



Baltar said:


> I'm not really sure where you are coming from with NL love. I haven't seen *any* love for the Night Lords yet!!! In fact, I'd rate them as one of the underappreciated! They are right in there with the White Scars. Yet to get their time.


You're spot on about the Scars, but the NL have a very vocal fanbase nowadays 



Angel of Blood said:


> Night Lords dont have alot of love? Fuck off lol, There are more raving Night Lord and Kurze fanboys on here then any other Legion, you dare say anything against their Legion and by extension ADB and they go ape shit. They have their own book series in 40k, they've got quite a nice amount of screen time in The First Heretic and Savage Weapons and of course the audiobooks. I would say on these boards that the Night Lord fans along with the Space Wolf ones are probably the most vocal and numerous, openly at least.


The fanboys are incredibly annoying


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I was quite surprised and liked the references to his closest brothers, I was especially surprised that Ferrus was amongst them. Think I'll be using the _Dauntless Few_ quite often from now on since it's easier than typing out all the names and they tend to be the most famous ones anyway.


----------



## Phoebus

My thoughts:

*"Know No Fear" is a very well-written book... for the most part.*

The pacing is simply intense. I read it about a day precisely because it flowed with such a sense of urgency. Abnett really did a good job of conveying the drama of the situation.

Even though the story was written in "the now", you got a good idea of what Calth was like, and you also received nice introductions to some of the heroes you would see suffer, die, or persevere in the end. Ultramar as a realm in the Great Crusade was given some life, and you got enough neat looks into how the Legion was organized (Tetrarchs, Chapter Masters, Companies, etc.). It was neat to see a tie-in with Chaos institutions from today, as well... such as the continuity of ranks.

The action was well done. I still think that a lot of the major battle scenes in this series (and in the greater 40k milieu) are written in the "lowest common denominator" sense. I can't help but lose my "suspension of disbelief" when the Space Marines form a firing line and march on like something out of "The Patriot". That having been said, Abnett did also show (once more) that he can write excellent smaller-scale battles: see Ollanius Pius' charge, for instance. And his take on the Word Bearers' strategy to take Calth was also well-done and very convincing. I'd always wondered if this book would come down to the Word Bearers trying to overcome Ultramarines numbers with tons of cultists and daemons...



... but, as it turns out, while those DID play a part, it was cunning and well-conceived treachery that won the day.


The cast was, for the most part, well-done. I did have some complaints about how they were handled, though. I _got,_ for instance, that some of the supporting cast were there to die, to show me the impact of the Word Bearers' attack. If it's just faceless Ultramarines who suffer, then you don't get the same connection. But the way some of the characters were handled struck me like Dan was running out of time and was forced to drop entire plot points.



Eikos Lamiad and Telemechrus, for instance, are at the very beginning... and the very end. Saur Damocles, Domitian, and Braellen are last seen right as the vox comes back on-line. They're never mentioned again.

I'm just of a mind that, if you're going to have a recurring character in your story... have some closure.

One of the ideas for the story was, with respect to the author, just too coincidental.



I mean, come on. Thiel is censured for studying tactics against other Space Marines _right before_ the Word Bearers attack?

That's... not ironic. It's "wink-wink", and it doesn't (IMHO) work.



On the other hand, Thiel's red helmet of censure becoming the mark of all Sergeants under the Codex Astartes WAS a nice stroke!


Guilliman was well-done. He came off as the reserved warrior-sage that fans either love or hate. It was nice to get an idea of what his visions for the future of the Imperium entailed. I found myself completely identifying with his thoughts on the Astartes, especially:



Abnett got it spot-on when he wrote this - ‘My father does not make mistakes of that magnitude,’ he had said. ‘Space Marines excel at warfare because they were designed to excel at everything. Each of you will become a leader, a ruler, the master of your world and, because there is no more fighting to be done, you will bend your transhuman talents to governance and culture.’


Also, you get a neat look at how...



... a duel between the Lion and Luther might go down. And an indication that a Primarch is by no means assured to triumph over an augmented human that is infused with the power of Chaos.


One of my initial reactions was disappointment at the fact that the Word Bearers accomplished what they did through such heinous treachery. I felt this went against the grain of righteousness they developed in "The First Heretic" and "Aurelian". But then I remember that, even in TFH, honorable Astartes committed to a dark future and hungry gods still spun lies and hid their true aims from Custodes who considered them comrades - and even friends in some cases.

A second reaction that I had was that I wished "Fulgrim" had not been the defining look of Isstvan V... and that a book like this - with this format, that is - had been used to tell the tale of that battle.

All in all, a solid, enjoyable, well-written book. I don't know if I'd call it the best, but it shows that the quality of the series can only be expected to increase!



Baltar said:


> I don't need BL to give me great literature. I can just go and read gret literature if I need great literature.


I disagree with this statement on principle. When I compare books from the Black Library now versus their material from before 2006 (when they were recommended to me), all I can really say is that back then I found it very hard to justify spending money on them. That's not to say that every book since then has been a hit in my eyes (far from it), but the quality is far greater and I think a driving reason for this is because BL has built a (slowly growing) core of authors who care about this setting and care about doing it justice.



> Abnett tried to portray they as some sort of stealthy silent marines: No. An 8ft power armoured marine is anything but stealthy. I think he seemed to hugely confuse literal stealth and the covert, secretive nature of the Alpha Legion. Misdirection, etc. Instead, what we got was a bunch of purple fools, tiptoeing around in power armour. Pathetic.


Which is why - no offense to Gav - "Legion" is about lies, manipulation, and covert activities, and "Salvation Lost" actually features Omegon sneaking around and trying to disguise himself with robes in a crowd. :wink:



Mossy Toes said:


> Myself, personally, on a close reading of the Monarchia scene in _The First Heretic_ didn't find Guilliman to be very condescending or dickish at all. It was mostly Lorgar projecting and inferring those emotions, or accusing his brother of them. Guilliman actually did very little.


EXACTLY!

A lot of people I see posting about the fluff, novels, etc., seem to have this opinion that, if a character in a novel thinks something is so, _then this must actually be the case._


----------



## MontytheMighty

Yes, we know Lorgar thinks he's an a$$ in The First Heretic, but we're left to wonder whether Lorgar's opinion is justified. Guilliman simply doesn't do enough in that book for us to judge his character. After reading Know No Fear, I'm leaning toward it's mostly in Lorgar's head.


----------



## Doelago

This book is the most beautiful thing ever written... :shok:


----------



## MontytheMighty

I hope that future BL novels continue to explore the Primarchs' views on each other, makes for fascinating reading


----------



## ckcrawford

It was alright in my opinion. But compared to some of the other works he's done in the Heresy I didn't like this one as much. 

I feel like it was rushed. The reason I felt so, is because Dan is pretty good at developing characters through the story, and for the most part as the story strode along, I didn't really feel that bad when they mentioned the characters dying.


----------



## Justindkates

Gaaaahhhh this doesn't come out until the 28th here!!! : (


----------



## Lord Mephiston

One of my favourite moments is the 

return of Mr.Samus! I didn't expect that bloke to pop up in Calth, of all places


----------



## nioveratus

I loved the book....It was well written but I don't think it is the best one of the series...I still think Legion,TFH and TS are better....I felt dan could have developed his characters a little bit more, it felt kind of rushed and I could not totally inmerse myself with the story....overall a good book.. a good addition to the series...looking forward to Angron now....


----------



## ckcrawford

Justindkates said:


> Gaaaahhhh this doesn't come out until the 28th here!!! : (


Right? I bought the E-book as well (I wonder if they do this on purpose). So when it finally comes I'm just going to add it to my collection.


----------



## Bane_of_Kings

Got _Know No Fear_ in the post today, so that'll probably be my read for tonight - It looks awesome , and I'm glad to have got my copy at last. . I'll let you all know what I thought of it.


----------



## Lord of the Night

My review for _Know No Fear_.

http://thefoundingfields.com/2012/0...dan-abnett-advanced-review-lord-of-the-night/

I'll let it speak for itself.


LotN


----------



## HorusReborn

Like I posted on Facebook for LotN's review. I was skeptical about this book as I started reading it. The chronological take on it was quite annoying at first, but I got over it as the characters started to develop. I thought I was going to be reading War and Peace when I saw how many characters were listed in the Dramatis Personae. I got this book when it was put out on ebook, and I just started it, sorry but the Wolves always take precedence LOL... I'll put my copy in my collection like I did with Outcast Dead and Deliverance Lost.


----------



## Lord Mephiston

Can anyone give me a link of the infamous battle between the Infidus Imperator and Maccrage's Honour, please ?

it's supposed to be one of the most infamous naval duels in WH40k, yet I'm unable to find a source or link via google or Lexicanum.


----------



## Wydnej

My background – I have no preferred chapter, I’ve read over 50 Black Library books, and to be fair the Ultramarines and the Blood Angels (after Swallows defecation all over them) were two of my least favourite chapters.

However my interest was piqued in the UM by the short mention they get by ADB in the First Heretic... Guilliman was intriguing and as a completionist I knew I’d be getting Know No Fear, and I looked forward to seeing that relationship with Lorgar taken further and developed.

After reading Know No Fear, I can say the following :

Tremendous book, a real page turner.
Great to see Guilliman in action and also see him in crisis and emotion.
Sadly missed opportunity to develop the nuances of hate between Lorgar and Guilliman.
Characterisation was ok, it wasn’t great but in no way was everyone a 2D facsimile. There was a limitation of how far the characterisation could be carried whilst trying to bring an appreciation to the scale of the devastation.
I certainly care a lot more about the UM now, partly sympathy for their suffering, partly through respect for their Primarch.
The setup is fantastic, the emotional attachment to the dwindling UM population... surprising...

All in all, it’s up there in my top 5.

Horus Rising
First Heretic
Fulgrim
A Thousand Sons
Know No Fear

My least favourite HH books being...

Battle for the Abyss
Descent of Angels.

KNOW NO FEAR by DAN ABNETT : 8.5/10


********SPOILER INCOMING DO NOT READ ON**************

On a separate note... I was shocked at the final showdown to see Kor Phaeron schooling a Primarch. He is only an augmented human not even an Astartes! The power of the dark gods indeed... I was sorry the fecker lived.


----------



## Baltar

Nice to see someone with the *correct* top three choices of books from the HH series for a change.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

The whole carnage of the beginning sequence kind of reminded me of chaotic invasions from movies or video games like Halo. Really got the sense of utter confusion, think it was the format that added to this.


----------



## ckcrawford

I agree with *Wydnej*, I think there were missed opportunities to really make a _Loken type_ character in the Novel. And also a chance to show more of the discontent between the legions.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

ckcrawford said:


> I agree with *Wydnej*, I think there were missed opportunities to really make a _Loken type_ character in the Novel. And also a chance to show more of the discontent between the legions.


They did didn't they? The Censored Sergeant was pretty cool.


----------



## Bane_of_Kings

Baltar said:


> Nice to see someone with the *correct* top three choices of books from the HH series for a change.


Okay, have you actually read _Know No Fear_ yet? You know, you shouldn't really judge a book without reading it first. I personally found the book fantastic. There were a few minor flaws, of course, but it has made itself the Best Horus Heresy novel yet imho. 

And why are you saying that it's correct, by the way? There is no correct top three choices of books from the HH. Everybody has their own favourites.

Speaking of favourites, my personal top five, which is constantly changing, currently look like this:

1. _Know No Fear_ by Dan Abnett
2. _The First Heretic_ by Aaron Dembski-Bowden
3. _A Thousand Sons_ by Graham McNeill 
4. _Prospero Burns_ by Dan Abnett
5. _Fulgrim_ by Graham McNeill

My least favourite, if I had to pick them, would be the following:

1. _Battle of the Abyss_ by Ben Counter 
2. _Descent of Angels_ by Mitchel Scanlon
3. _Fallen Angels_ by Mike Lee
4. _False Gods_ by Graham McNeill
5. _Nemesis_ by James Swallow (Only just, the quality improved quite a lot with this. It was a tough choice).


----------



## Doelago

My top five would be, 

1: _Know No Fear_
2: _Prospero Burns_
3: _Legion_
4: _Horus Rising_
5: _Legion of One_


----------



## Fire Tempered

Well, 'cause everybody is talking about it....

1. A Thousand Sons
2. Horus Rising
3. First Heretic
4. Know No Fear
5. Fulgrim

Next would certainly be Prospero Burns. That is of course my totally subjective opinion, there is no correct order, Baltar is just behaving like an a-hole.

And you really can't expect Loken type of character in book with cast this great, although I agree book could be maybe longer and some characters featured more. 
It is brilliantly written, Abnett really explained how to write great action. I didn't expect his books featuring only Astartes to be so good, although I liked all his work I have read so far. (still haven't read Gaunt's Ghosts).

Book doesn't have emotional impact on reader as big as books like Fulgrim and A Thousand Son had on me, but still great part of the series, far better than previous 2 books ( although I found Outcast Dead interesting because of different focus).


----------



## docgeo

SO I just finished it and I have to say That I really enjoyed it. My only complaint was that it felt rushed at the end. He quickly tried to tie up all the out lyeing stories. The Joh Gramamticus and Oll story was left undone and I am not sure what the point was except maybe to build for another book in the future. It has to be one of my favorite books and not just because Ultramarines are my perfered army. It contained depth, excitement, and interaction between primarchs. I really enjoyed the story about Theil( think that was his name) the censured SGt.

order of Favorites:

1. Thousand Sons
2. Know no Fear
3. Legion
4. Battle for the Abyss
5. Deliverance Lost
6. Flight of the Esenstine


Doc


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Been a while since I read the earlier books, but I definitely think flight of the Eistenstein is in my top 5.


----------



## gen.ahab

Right, as long as we are doing the whole top five thing..

#1) Fulgrim 
#2) Prospero Burns (the two grade off the top spot on a daily basis)
#3) Mechanicus 
#4) Know No Fear
#5) Depends on the day, but maybe......... Horus Rising.....BIG maybe.

Side question: Why does everyone love _Legion_ so much? I couldn't stand the book.


----------



## Lord of the Night

1.) _Know No Fear_
2.) _The First Heretic_
3.) _A Thousand Sons_
4.) _Fulgrim_
5.) _Deliverance Lost_


LotN


----------



## ckcrawford

Words_of_Truth said:


> They did didn't they? The Censored Sergeant was pretty cool.


Seriously? I really couldn't compare characters.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

ckcrawford said:


> Seriously? I really couldn't compare characters.


He was an Ultramarine with an attitude, messing about with the Primarchs collection of weapons, making jokes, killing things. Was probably one of few I actually wanted to read more about.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Baltar said:


> They need all the love they can get - the Night Lords are shit
> 
> All they have going for them is a totally badass post-heresy paint job.


:shok: ........... I hate you.



Angel of Blood said:


> Night Lords dont have alot of love? Fuck off lol, There are more raving Night Lord and Curze fanboys on here then any other Legion, you dare say anything against their Legion and by extension ADB and they go ape shit. They have their own book series in 40k, they've got quite a nice amount of screen time in The First Heretic and Savage Weapons and of course the audiobooks. I would say on these boards that the Night Lord fans along with the Space Wolf ones are probably the most vocal and numerous, openly at least.


And I am chief amongst them all. Night Lords are gods! :wink:

In seriousness I do admit i'm a huge Night Lords fan, they are my favourite of all the Astartes and have been for a long time. Word Bearers, Thousand Sons and some others come close but the Night Lords come out on top. But if somebody has a reasonable negative opinion of them I can understand it, its their opinion.

That said if your response is just. "Their shit," without any reasoning or if you are just hammering away with constant crappy comments about them, or anything really, then I don't care what you have to say.

I like reasonable arguments and debates. Not trolls.


LotN


----------



## sadLor

Words_of_Truth said:


> He was an Ultramarine with an attitude, messing about with the Primarchs collection of weapons, making jokes, killing things. Was probably one of few I actually wanted to read more about.


Same here. Him and the lady magos were the 2 I wanted to read about... The rest were pretty interchangeable.

We're doing top 5's here? Why not! (not including Tales of Heresy and Age of Darkness...I have not read Deliverance Lost yet...I will soon!)

1) First Heretic
2) A Thousand Sons
3) Fulgrim
4) Prospero Burns
5) Horus Rising

But honestly, that wasn't in any particular order... 2-5 were equally good. After these 5 would be False Gods, Legion and Know No Fear... After that... it gets into "not recommended" territory.


----------



## ckcrawford

sadLor said:


> Same here. Him and the lady magos were the 2 I wanted to read about... The rest were pretty interchangeable.
> 
> We're doing top 5's here? Why not! (not including Tales of Heresy and Age of Darkness...I have not read Deliverance Lost yet...I will soon!)
> 
> 1) First Heretic
> 2) A Thousand Sons
> 3) Fulgrim
> 4) Prospero Burns
> 5) Horus Rising
> 
> But honestly, that wasn't in any particular order... 2-5 were equally good. After these 5 would be False Gods, Legion and Know No Fear... After that... it gets into "not recommended" territory.


Nice top five. Mines are the same just a different order. _Know no Fear_, was a decent novel and almost made my top five. But realistically these five had awesome characters and unfortunately I don't think any of the characters in this novel developed properly to really have the same feel as some of the novels you just mentioned.

@ sadLor, mine are slightly different. But you still have good taste. :victory:
1)Horus Rising
2)Fulgrim
3)Prospero Burns
4)First Heretic
5)A Thousand Sons


----------



## Cowlicker16

Got done reading the book and only have few complaints...ending felt rushed but with the pace of the story up until then I can overlook it. Not a ton of characterization, my favorite character (Themocles or whoever was in the dreadnought) was introduced failry early but isn't really seen doing too much but their were a lot of characters so fair enough. All in all a really good book, not my favorite but still really good.

And since everyone esle has:
1)Fulgrim
2)Thousand Sons
3)First Heretic
4)Legion
5)Deliverance Lost/False Gods(depends what kinda mood I'm in)


----------



## Baron Spikey

Ok then, I love lists as much as the next man:

1)Know No Fear
2)Legion
3)Horus Rising
4)Fulgrim
5)A Thousand Sons


----------



## mal310

Really enjoyed the book, certainly up amongst the better ones, and I'm not a great fan of constant fighting. It did however seem very rushed at the end and felt like a few story threads were just cut/not finished/not properly developed etc. I still thought it was a great book, just thought it needed a little bit more time and pages. 

Top 5 
1. Legion
2. The First Heretic
3. A Thousand Sons
4. Fulgrim
5. Know No Fear

Bottom 5 (1 = worst)

1. The Outcast Dead (continuity mess)
2. Fallen Angels (sloppy)
3. Prospero Burns (missed opportunity/boring/WHY?)
4. Descent of Angels (WTF!)
5. Galaxy in Flames (lacklustre, no depth. Very poor considering the events which the author had to work with)


----------



## sadLor

ckcrawford said:


> Nice top five. Mines are the same just a different order. _Know no Fear_, was a decent novel and almost made my top five. But realistically these five had awesome characters and unfortunately I don't think any of the characters in this novel developed properly to really have the same feel as some of the novels you just mentioned.
> 
> @ sadLor, mine are slightly different. But you still have good taste. :victory:
> 1)Horus Rising
> 2)Fulgrim
> 3)Prospero Burns
> 4)First Heretic
> 5)A Thousand Sons


Great minds think alike! 

I like your reasoning too. I didn't even realize it but yes, the books I like best all had one or two characters that I adored and wanted to read more about.

Lorgar was awesome in First Heretic.
I liked everyone in Prospero Burns and a Thousand Sons.
Fulgrim and the sculptor remembrancer in Fulgrim.
Loken in Horus Rising.

Know No Fear didn't have that one guy where I thought to myself, "I hope to god the next chapter or POV is about him!"


----------



## MontytheMighty

Know No Fear 
Horus Rising 
A Thousand Sons
The First Heretic 
Tales of Heresy (Blood Games)/Age of Darkness (Little Horus)


----------



## Baltar

Yeah, Blood Games was an awesome story. Kinda wished it was a full book. Kudos to Abnett for that little gem.

I also liked the story about the last church. That was epic despite being devoid of any real violence.


----------



## raider1987

Baltar I do agree with you on a lot of points. I was not Prospero Burns biggest fan, I was very dissapointed by it. Not saying it was a bad book I just didn't like it. But I loved iron snakes which I read recently and it really gave me hope of dans handling of space marines.

This book blew me out of the water. It's dialogue and characters are the best in the series alongside the first heratic, and the battles are better than any in the heresy so far. The only the burning of prospero in a thousand sons comes close, but to be honest it's a distant second. 

Who would have thought 19 novels, 2 novellas and 5 audio dramas in, the heresy could still blow you away.

Although I do have one question to anyone who can answer this for me. 

In Arulian (forgive my spelling), Horus basically tells Lorgar that he is sending the world eaters to assist in wiping out the ultra's. But you never hear a peep from them, what gives?


----------



## Lord Mephiston

raider1987 said:


> Baltar I do agree with you on a lot of points. I was not Prospero Burns biggest fan, I was very dissapointed by it. Not saying it was a bad book I just didn't like it. But I loved iron snakes which I read recently and it really gave me hope of dans handling of space marines.
> 
> This book blew me out of the water. It's dialogue and characters are the best in the series alongside the first heratic, and the battles are better than any in the heresy so far. The only the burning of prospero in a thousand sons comes close, but to be honest it's a distant second.
> 
> Who would have thought 19 novels, 2 novellas and 5 audio dramas in, the heresy could still blow you away.
> 
> Although I do have one question to anyone who can answer this for me.
> 
> In Arulian (forgive my spelling), Horus basically tells Lorgar that he is sending the world eaters to assist in wiping out the ultra's. But you never hear a peep from them, what gives?


That will be explained in Butcher's nails the audiodrama. That's exactly what it's based on.


----------



## gen.ahab

ckcrawford said:


> Seriously? I really couldn't compare characters.


Well, considering that one had 3 books which were at least 70% his own, does that really surprise you that there would be more in that character then one who only had a small fraction of a single novel?


----------



## jasonbob

Is the fact that the Alpha legion has 2 primarchs known to the other legions because kor phaeron discussed Lorgar asked for their to be 2 copies of the book of lorgar made for the Alpha legion.


----------



## Sleepy Dragon

I also wondered about the 2 copies and if it ment the twin primarchs was common knowledge amongst the traitor legions. 

Have to say I found the book hard going and had to restart it after leaving it for a couple of days, while I usually power through HH books in a day or so


----------



## Cowlicker16

With knowing about the twins I would imagine it's hard to hide anthing from Lorgar, what with the best communion between him and the gods, you think he would be able to find out just about anything he really sets his mind to


----------



## kwak76

I think the "Know no Fear ", was good . Probably better than the last few novels that came out. It is pure bolter porn. Lots of non-stop action. 

Dan Abnett sets the pace good and I didn't find myself getting bored. There was some lack of character development and I was interested in learning more about the characters but I think the time line of the battle of calth was like 1 or two days. I think because of that there was not enough time to get into all the characters. 

I mean for example in Gaunt Ghost series , Dan Abnett was able to spread it our and have character development but that happened over multiple books to achieve that. 


I wouldn't be surprise if these character would be re-cast in future Horus Heresy novels. If Abnett is taking the rein in writing more Ultramarines perspective in the horus heresy novels I love to see more of the character development. 

I like to know more about Aeonid Thiel and Remus Ventanus .


----------



## ckcrawford

gen.ahab said:


> Well, considering that one had 3 books which were at least 70% his own, does that really surprise you that there would be more in that character then one who only had a small fraction of a single novel?


The other novels destroyed the first novel's portrayal of Loken in my opinion. Horus' character in the novels were not in harmony as the others written by Dan. If you say the two additional novels built up his development as a character, I would say you're crazy. I did not connect with Loken as the series went on until probably his supposed death. And even then I wasn't really thinking at all about his actions in the second and third book.


----------



## gen.ahab

ckcrawford said:


> The other novels destroyed the first novel's portrayal of Loken in my opinion. Horus' character in the novels were not in harmony as the others written by Dan. If you say the two additional novels built up his development as a character, I would say you're crazy. I did not connect with Loken as the series went on until probably his supposed death. And even then I wasn't really thinking at all about his actions in the second and third book.


Regardless, he still had dozens of pages more to develop Loken than he had to develop Aeonid Thiel.


----------



## Azkaellon

Shame this book isnt out yet here.......I know the smurfs will win in the end but i can't help rooting for chaos this time......


----------



## ckcrawford

gen.ahab said:


> Regardless, he still had dozens of pages more to develop Loken than he had to develop Aeonid Thiel.


*HE* didn't. Dan Abnett ever wrote one novel for Loken. And he had nothing before _Horus Rising_ to build his character on. Unless your saying _Horus Rising_ has significantly more pages than _Know no Fear._ I wouldn't know. My copy hasn't come yet. I'm glad I got the E-Book though.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Azkaellon said:


> Shame this book isnt out yet here.......I know the smurfs will win in the end but i can't help rooting for chaos this time......


I felt the same way... before I read it. Afterwards... well.

We March for Macragge! :grin:


LotN


----------



## Doelago

Lord of the Night said:


> We March for Macragge! :grin:


In the past, I used to do that. But now I March for Calth.


----------



## Xisor

ckcrawford said:


> *HE* didn't. Dan Abnett ever wrote one novel for Loken. And he had nothing before _Horus Rising_ to build his character on. Unless your saying _Horus Rising_ has significantly more pages than _Know no Fear._ I wouldn't know. My copy hasn't come yet. I'm glad I got the E-Book though.


Arguably, *HE* did. Though it comes down to character density. KNF has a massive cast. But that's Dan's decision, Dan's call. Working within the confines he set himself (MASSIVE CAST), he had less space to develop Thiel compared to Loken.

That said, it's Dan's choice. One might well argue the other direction that, even with less dedicated page-space for the character, Dan could well have put in much more thick and rewarding character development. He could have a whole novel with only one character PoV who undergoes shockingly little character development. (It's not unthinkable that this could be a particularly good novel too, it just doesn't seem likely given the various norms we engage with in reading.)

Accepting that authors are, to some extent, slaves to their ideas, to their muses, Dan had the story lined up and, having decided on a massive cast, he's stuck on that and thus limited by the space.

That's not an easy acceptance to make though. The 'buck' still lies with Dan.

(Personally, I don't think KNF suffers hugely from the 'lack of characterisation': I think Dan manages to do much better than expected given the undertaking. I think he did balanced himself better in _Titanicus_ [large cast, vignettes, lots of jumping around...but still more focussed and flowing], but KNF remains a resounding success, for me. [Even if it could've been improved in bits and places.])


----------



## Commissar Ploss

For those of you who are interested, Dan and I sat down at AdeptiCon last year and chatted about various things, including this HH Novel, which he was at the time, still writing. It's interesting to hear what his plans were with the book, what he intended it to be and such. Also interesting to compare those previous statements with the work that has been published. The video is below.


----------



## gen.ahab

Xisor said:


> Arguably, *HE* did. Though it comes down to character density. KNF has a massive cast. But that's Dan's decision, Dan's call. Working within the confines he set himself (MASSIVE CAST), he had less space to develop Thiel compared to Loken.
> 
> That said, it's Dan's choice. One might well argue the other direction that, even with less dedicated page-space for the character, Dan could well have put in much more thick and rewarding character development. He could have a whole novel with only one character PoV who undergoes shockingly little character development. (It's not unthinkable that this could be a particularly good novel too, it just doesn't seem likely given the various norms we engage with in reading.)
> 
> Accepting that authors are, to some extent, slaves to their ideas, to their muses, Dan had the story lined up and, having decided on a massive cast, he's stuck on that and thus limited by the space.
> 
> That's not an easy acceptance to make though. The 'buck' still lies with Dan.
> 
> (Personally, I don't think KNF suffers hugely from the 'lack of characterisation': I think Dan manages to do much better than expected given the undertaking. I think he did balanced himself better in _Titanicus_ [large cast, vignettes, lots of jumping around...but still more focussed and flowing], but KNF remains a resounding success, for me. [Even if it could've been improved in bits and places.])


This. Though yes, Abnett was the one who set the limits. However, I am happy with the book and the large cast. I think it really allowed him to convoy the scale of this and just how large this battle was. Personally, I really enjoyed that. 

And, yeah, I mean character density. What I meant was that with the huge cast of characters that are in this book, it's not really fair to expect a Loken-esk character to come from it. I have no doubt that, if given the enough time, effort, and pages Mr. Abnett could have made Thiel into a character that was on par with Loken, if not better, but with the relatively few number of pages that Thiel actually had devoted to HIS story, that was never going to happen in _Know No Fear_. 

On a side note, I _REALLY_ want to see Aeonid brought back in the series. I would just love it if he was brought back and really made into one of the major characters of the Horus Heresy series to join the ranks of Garviel, Sol and Garro.


----------



## Xisor

Though we could see a super-Loken (i.e. better) even in much less space, it's hardly _likely_; I'd agree with that, certainly! :grin:



gen.ahab said:


> On a side note, I _REALLY_ want to see Aeonid brought back in the series. I would just love it if he was brought back and really made into one of the major characters of the Horus Heresy series to join the ranks of Garviel, Sol and Garro.


I'm unsure. I might've mentioned already, but I _kinda_ felt that Aeonid's (Enid!? Blyton?! :biggrin: ) story was done when he meets up with Marius Gage. That is: after that, he started to take up space in the novel as his 'development' was done, his big moment is there. To that end, I thought his scenes _after_ meeting Marius could've be done via another character still (albeit with Aeonid 'nearby'/noted/mentioned).

In any case, he struck me as an endearing, if 'Sue-y' character. But I didn't _really_ mind that. A sergeant who out-thought (well, out-foresaw) everyone? Well, sure. _Somebody_ had to!

So, yeah, I'd very happily agree to the call for seeing more of Mr Thiel. (Though I also adored our Tetrarch too. I'd love to read a bit more from him, possibly even just a 'conversational aside' with Guilliman, but the length of a chapbook short story.)

---

*Did you notice...*

The little 'aside' sequence about at ~20min before the Mark of Calth began? One of Garro's chums. 



Tylos Rubio! The only such man who lived to regret not talking about his headaches.


----------



## Azkaellon

Lord of the Night said:


> I felt the same way... before I read it. Afterwards... well.
> 
> We March for Macragge! :grin:
> 
> 
> LotN


You mean you march for Traitors to the Imperium trying to build there own empire?


----------



## gridge

I finished this book over the weekend and absolutely loved it! I wasn't much of a fan of the Ultramarines going in, in fact before reading this book I would have referred to them as a bit dull but that is not the case any longer. They are still not my favorite Legion Astartes but they've moved up a notch or two. I think Abnett has a talent with fleshing out a Chapter and making them seem less one dimensional. I just wish that he or ADB would get their hands on the Blood Angels (I'm not much of a fan of Swallow's works).


----------



## Callistarius

gridge said:


> I finished this book over the weekend and absolutely loved it! I wasn't much of a fan of the Ultramarines going in, in fact before reading this book I would have referred to them as a bit dull but that is not the case any longer. They are still not my favorite Legion Astartes but they've moved up a notch or two. I think Abnett has a talent with fleshing out a Chapter and making them seem less one dimensional. I just wish that he or ADB would get their hands on the Blood Angels (I'm not much of a fan of Swallow's works).


I absolutely agree on both points: I, too, never like the ultras before KNF... now is different. ADB Or Dan doing Blood Angels would be amazing. I loved that BA fans got the BA-series, but I'm not such a fan of the writing or even the premise.


----------



## TheReverend

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Blog/25_facts_for_25_years.html

5) When designing the box game Space Marine it was too expensive to produce a xenos sprue, so after finding an obscure reference to an Imperial civil war in Rick Priestly’s original writings, the box included a red sprue and a blue sprue of Space Marines and the Horus Heresy was born!
6) Dan Abnett makes reference to this in Know No Fear, see if you can spot it...

anyone else spot this?


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Well I am going to go apart from a lot of people in this thread whilst stating my own opinions.

Is _Know No Fear_ good? yes. Is it the best HH novel? Certainly not.

I felt that the story was too cut down for the main part. Calth is such a huge part of the UM history I still think it was a bad move to confine it all within one, smaller than most of the others, novel. Parts I would like to have seen might include what Lamiad and Telemechrus were doing rounding up troops or what Nicodemius is doing before he pops up at the end.

The Dramatis Personae was also far too long. I can understand its direction to give a scale of the mass slaughter of UM's at Calth but I found there where too many faces for me to care about at the time when they died.

I also felt let down in places by the novel itself. Other HH titles have set the legion so that it is grand and majestic and what I got did not necessarily portray this. In _Mechanicum_ we learn that the Legio Tempestus is mostly based with Guilliman but we do not even get a mention of them. Numerous novels, _Fulgrim_ foremostly, tell us of an individual named Kellan Roget who is claimed to be the best painter in the remembrancer order. Such an individual is of huge importance in my book and yet he does not even get mentioned. At all. Also we get absolutely no mention of the _Argo_
mentioned in _The Outcast Dead_ nor do we get any mention of _The Furious Abyss_.

I also felt the book lacked the opinion from a human perspective. Oll does not count here in my eyes since he is in all counts immortal and not really human. However others such as the aforementioned Kellan Roget ARE human and their views could have been really interesting.

But there were good points to the book including all the little easter eggs about the Iron Snakes and the red helmet origin but I did have some very pressing concerns about the book.

Overall my top 5:

5. Fulgrim
4. Horus Rising
3. Mechanicum
2. Legion
1. A Thousand Sons

The First Heretic really did not sit with me as much as some others have. Dunno why though.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

You make a very good point about the _Furious Abyss_ - I thought it would have at least been referred to in passing. Unless of course it is an attempt to completely (and justifiably) brush _Battle for the Abyss_ under the carpet...


----------



## Azkaellon

Hmmm in all honesty i didn't think it was that good.....I mean sure its great to read about ultramarine's getting there butt's kicked by chaos and there primarch getting Pwned pretty hard..........But there is not really any development of the characters.

So i would have to say this book isnt even in my type top 5......(those being...)

5)False Gods
4) Galaxy in Flames
3)Fallen Angels
2)A Thousand Sons
1)First Heretic (I love the custode scenes...)


----------



## Baron Spikey

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> You make a very good point about the _Furious Abyss_ - I thought it would have at least been referred to in passing. Unless of course it is an attempt to completely (and justifiably) brush _Battle for the Abyss_ under the carpet...


Or the fact it was destroyed; A) without any survivors and B) before any of the loyalist legions even realised it existed.


----------



## Phoebus

Solid point, Baron, and unfortunately I cannot assign you Rep. 

My main complaint was that there seemed to be cuts from the story that made it poorer by being shorter. As Stephen_Newman mentioned, Telemechrus and Lamiad are not even mentioned in the best part of the novel. As much as I was engrossed by what was going on with everyone else in the "meat"/key portions of the book, I still kept thinking about what was going on with those guys.

That, and Damocles' Company is last referenced in a pretty climactic moment... and never shown afterwards. Such a shame, 'cause I loved "Brothers of the Snake", and it was awesome to see their origins in this novel!

Cheers,
P.


----------



## Zinegata

This was my first Horus Heresy book. And it was damn good.

I particularly liked the final exchange between Ultramarine Venantus and Skitarii Arook.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Baron Spikey said:


> Or the fact it was destroyed; A) without any survivors and B) before any of the loyalist legions even realised it existed.


True. I don't know, I guess I was just expecting at least a vague reference or nod to _Battle for the Abyss_. Perhaps Kor Phaeron cursing Zadkiel for his failure in passing or something.


----------



## Phoebus

That _would_ have been apropos.

... Especially once the defense grid came back online and Guilliman had the fleet going after the Word Bearers.

_"Thanks, Zadkiel, we definitely didn't need a super-powerful battleship to turn this shit around right about now!"_


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Baron Spikey said:


> Or the fact it was destroyed; A) without any survivors and B) before any of the loyalist legions even realised it existed.


I am not so sure about this. There is another novel in the HH series that mentions the Abyss and its escape by what are called Rogue Word Bearers at the time so it definitely occurred before the Isstvan 5 massacre to some Imperials.


----------



## deepsix81

Stephen_Newman said:


> I felt that the story was too cut down for the main part. Calth is such a huge part of the UM history I still think it was a bad move to confine it all within one, smaller than most of the others, novel. Parts I would like to have seen might include what Lamiad and Telemechrus were doing rounding up troops or what Nicodemius is doing before he pops up at the end.
> 
> ***
> 
> Also we get absolutely no mention of the _Argo _mentioned in _The Outcast Dead_ nor do we get any mention of _The Furious Abyss_.


 
These two things, in particular, were too conspicuous to be coincidence. While I obviously have no idea what direction ADB's book will take, I have to believe that these things will get major attention in the companion story. For a throwaway line like, 'The largest space battle in history,' (or something to that effect) to no have any follow up, it can only mean that there is more to come. And judging from the ship combat in Blood Reaver, this is in more than capable hands. 

And when the book references Lamiad fighting through the southern battlefields with only a passing mention, it just seems likely that the partner book will have more details on these stories in particular.


----------



## CorvusGuardXIX

I compiled a list of easter eggs/fluff references in the book. Feel free to correct me if any of them are wrong or to add to the list.





- Cognitae is a heretical cult from the Ravenor Series.
- Tylos Rubio is one of the characters in Garro: Oath of Moment.
- Maroq Kartho is M'Kar, a daemon prince in 40k.
- Oll Persson is Ollanius Pius, the retconned guardsman who faced Horus.
- Oll learned trench-fighting in Verdun, a battle in World War I.
- Oll was one of the Argonauts in Jason and the Argonauts.
- Captain Damocles has the same name of Priad's squad in the Iron Snakes.
- The Brotherhood of the Knife is the same Brotherhood in Anthony Reynold's Word Bearers series? I'm not really sure on this one.
- Captain Ventanus's 4th Company has the same number as Uriel Ventris's company.
- The censured red helmet is the mark of an Ultramarines sergeant in 40k.


----------



## Baron Spikey

deepsix81 said:


> These two things, in particular, were too conspicuous to be coincidence. While I obviously have no idea what direction ADB's book will take, I have to believe that these things will get major attention in the companion story. For a throwaway line like, 'The largest space battle in history,' (or something to that effect) to no have any follow up, it can only mean that there is more to come. And judging from the ship combat in Blood Reaver, this is in more than capable hands.
> 
> And when the book references Lamiad fighting through the southern battlefields with only a passing mention, it just seems likely that the partner book will have more details on these stories in particular.


ADB's book isn't going to be a true companion novel like A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burning- it'll involve the rest of the Word Bearers legion (and the World Eaters) else where in the Galaxy at the same time.



CorvusGuardXIX said:


> I compiled a list of easter eggs/fluff references in the book. Feel free to correct me if any of them are wrong or to add to the list.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Oll learned trench-fighting in Verdun, a battle in World War I.


Though this could be the Napoleonic Wars since he mentions Austerlitz as well and only in the Napoleonic Wars were both regions the sites of major battles. 



Of course Oll could have taken part in both Wars


----------



## Apfeljunge

I'm pretty sure Oll refers to the battle of verdun during WW1 because he mentions the trench warfare.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

deepsix81 said:


> These two things, in particular, were too conspicuous to be coincidence. While I obviously have no idea what direction ADB's book will take, I have to believe that these things will get major attention in the companion story. For a throwaway line like, 'The largest space battle in history,' (or something to that effect) to no have any follow up, it can only mean that there is more to come. And judging from the ship combat in Blood Reaver, this is in more than capable hands.


I appreciate the vote of confidence, but the esteemed Baron is right: _Betrayer_ is about what the rest of the Word Bearers (and the World Eaters) were doing in Ultramar during and after Calth.

There're some pretty severe void battles in it, but they're not based on anything relating to _Know No Fear_.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I appreciate the vote of confidence, but the esteemed Baron is right: _Betrayer_ is about what the rest of the Word Bearers (and the World Eaters) were doing in Ultramar during and after Calth.


When can we expect to see _Betrayer_? With only three more HH novels set for this year, and two of them being anthologies, I think some of us will be Jonesing for more HH action by christmas. The last few instalments have been top notch.


----------



## Phoebus

CorvusGuardXIX said:


> I compiled a list of easter eggs/fluff references in the book. Feel free to correct me if any of them are wrong or to add to the list.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Captain Damocles has the same name of Priad's squad in the Iron Snakes.




And his Company has the same symbol as the Iron Snakes, as well...


:wink:


----------



## deepsix81

Baron Spikey said:


> ADB's book isn't going to be a true companion novel like A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burning- it'll involve the rest of the Word Bearers legion (and the World Eaters) else where in the Galaxy at the same time.
> [/spoiler]


Suitably chastened. Well, that does make those sequences significantly more head-scratch worthy.


----------



## Designation P-90

Is this in bookstores now? I went to several B&N's in the past week or two and haven't seen it in either the Scifi sections or New Fiction sections.


----------



## randian

Designation P-90 said:


> Is this in bookstores now? I went to several B&N's in the past week or two and haven't seen it in either the Scifi sections or New Fiction sections.


It's definitely out. My B&N didn't put it in the Warhammer section, it put it in the New SciFi section.


----------



## Designation P-90

randian said:


> It's definitely out. My B&N didn't put it in the Warhammer section, it put it in the New SciFi section.


Ok cool. Ill keep checking then. Is it in paperback yet? I dont really know which books have hardbacks or not. 

Just a side note, at the 3 B&N's I go to, they ALWAYS have at LEAST 10 copies of Mechanicum. I found that bizarre.


----------



## Bane_of_Kings

Designation P-90 said:


> Ok cool. Ill keep checking then. Is it in paperback yet? I dont really know which books have hardbacks or not.
> 
> Just a side note, at the 3 B&N's I go to, they ALWAYS have at LEAST 10 copies of Mechanicum. I found that bizarre.


Yes. At the moment, the Horus Heresy novels are all released in paperback, and will most likely always be. Which is a good sign.


----------



## forkmaster

So now I can finally join the discussion. My first thoughts was that Ive pesonally liked UM appearence, they do not look dull. Sure their fluff is a bit overpowered, but I still liked their appearences. And I can agree I was a bit disappointed in PB, but it wasn't that bad of a book now when I've reflected upon it. That gave me a bit of doubts on Dan.

But he made a terrific and great book here about Calth. Sure there were a shitload of characters to keep track on, some weren't developted, but I felt some depth with the most important ones. It was nice to see RG as a logical person, not the uptight arse previous fluff presented him as. But also showed he could give into emotions as the hirt brother he was. The most awesome scen is the chat between him and Lorgar after he said Lorgar could go to hell pretty much.

As I understand it, Lorgar attacked RG personally onboard his ship, which made him disappear for a few pages. In the description, it sounds like Lorgar transformed. Was this the moment he became a daemon prince? For all souls lost and sacrificed at Calth? 

I also agree, despite the book, a small mentioning of Abyss could have been done, but the cameo of Rubio was nicely done. What I reflect upon now afterwards, were really every single character in the personae even used? And I think one of the human soldiers, Krank I believe, died being eaten by daemon hounds, but returned later on, and this time neither were in space but on the ground again. Some plotholes there.

I loved the scen with the Dreadnought asking about cardiac wound. That was hilarious. XD I wish he would have made more screentime with him, but it was nice too see the thoughts of a Dreadnought.

Also forgot to add the first time: I liked to see Legion structure, numbers and Chapter organisation. Now we officially know they were roughly 250 000 strong, but only 200 000 at Calth. The Word Bearers had five Chapters at Calth, roughly 50 000. A company roughly reaches the size of 1000 warriors, and a Chapter is 10 companier. Also now I know that companies 1-10 makes up first Chapter, companies 11-20 makes up second and so on. 

Seen others have said which their favorites are, I would still say Fulgrim is my favorite, followed by ATS, TFH, FotE (even though after reading it a 2nd time, lowered its awesomeness) and Horus Rising.

Those I liked least is BftA, PB (only cause it dull, but its not bad as said before. Its a good addition to ATS seeing the different views upon knowledge), Mechanicum and Outcast dead due to the lack of explanation of characters, the lack of screentime for the titles main cast and fugg up with chronological order.


----------



## randian

forkmaster said:


> As I understand it, Lorgar attacked RG personally onboard his ship, which made him disappear for a few pages. In the description, it sounds like Lorgar transformed.


Lorgar was never in the Calth system. He and Angron are doing something else. I'm pretty sure Lorgar didn't ascend until he landed on Sicarus.


----------



## forkmaster

randian said:


> Lorgar was never in the Calth system. He and Angron are doing something else. I'm pretty sure Lorgar didn't ascend until he landed on Sicarus.


No, Lorgar did attack RG personally onboard is ship, maybe not in psysical form, but he did attack. I don't have the page number yet, will have to return and look for it. Also it sounded that during their last video-chat, Lorgar transformed into something inhuman.


----------



## Apfeljunge

It was a Daemon disguised as Lorgar or him speaking through a Daemon or something like that. He was not at Calth. 
In Aurelian :

Lorgar is shown a vision that he would kill RG if he went to Calth but the heresy would be lost


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

forkmaster said:


> Also forgot to add the first time: I liked to see Legion structure, numbers and Chapter organisation. Now we officially know they were roughly 250 000 strong, but only 200 000 at Calth. The Word Bearers had five Chapters at Calth, roughly 50 000. A company roughly reaches the size of 1000 warriors, and a Chapter is 10 companier. Also now I know that companies 1-10 makes up first Chapter, companies 11-20 makes up second and so on.


That's just the Ultramarines.

The Word Bearers had "the equivalent" of 5 Chapters, by Ultramarines-size. Word Bearer Chapters (and other Legion Chapters) are much smaller, closer to actual 40K Chapters in size.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

randian said:


> Lorgar was never in the Calth system. He and Angron are doing something else.


True blue.



Apfeljunge said:


> It was a Daemon disguised as Lorgar or him speaking through a Daemon or something like that. He was not at Calth.
> In Aurelian :
> 
> Lorgar is shown a vision that he would kill RG if he went to Calth but the heresy would be lost


Also true.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

just finished KNF, was ok but not the best HH by a mile. not really much of interest really happening that we havent seen in 40k to be honest. i didnt feel guilliman character was explored enough to make you see what he is really like compared to the image others have of him, plus his marines didnt really seem to venerate him as some great being that he was suppose to be. there was a example where one of his chapter master pretty much scoffs at him leading a assault like he was some neophyte. 
seems to me the interesting people ie the primarchs champion and his dreadnought pal were totally missed out but we get loads of other marines i couldnt give to shits about get screen time just to be killed.
i liked the beginning with the muster and all the destruction of the fleet but after that it just descended into the whole battle hinging on a small group of people protecting some crumby palace so they could save the day. the novel lost its epicness after the fleet destruction for me.

and while we seem to always get some great surprises lore wise this novel lacked anything that really got my interest ie imperial royal family wise. but on that note i loved the return of grammaticus and the addition of oll pious and what his future will play in the final stages of the heresy. 

so overall not bad but not really super great either for me.


----------



## pb100

I finished Know no Fear last night. It was a near-impossible to put down towards the end, and the action was spot on, but I wouldn't include it in m top five Heresy novels. I don't think enough time was spent "getting to know" the Ultramarine characters. The betrayal at Istvaan III was much more intense and personal because we had three books to get to know the betrayed legionaries. I'm not sure what publishing schedule BL has set for the HH novels. Maybe there wasn't enough time in it to fit in a two books introducing us the the UM.


----------



## forkmaster

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> That's just the Ultramarines.
> 
> The Word Bearers had "the equivalent" of 5 Chapters, by Ultramarines-size. Word Bearer Chapters (and other Legion Chapters) are much smaller, closer to actual 40K Chapters in size.


Ahh, does that also mean the old structure of only 100 men per company as well, more or less? The Chapter strenghts has always bugged me a bit and ever since I found out there were Chapters during the Heresy, I've always wanted to find out numbers on them. 



Apfeljunge said:


> It was a Daemon disguised as Lorgar or him speaking through a Daemon or something like that. He was not at Calth.
> In Aurelian :
> 
> Lorgar is shown a vision that he would kill RG if he went to Calth but the heresy would be lost





Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> True blue.
> 
> 
> 
> Also true.


Well that fact I knew about. Finished _Aurelian_ in a day but I just went on the info I got from KNF, but if both you said this, I stand corrected.  When reflecting upon it, we did have a daemon pretending to be Horus in _Prospero Burns_, so I guess it wasn't the first time. Funny to see how Roboute Guilliman was even fooled by it. When exactly was Lorgar turned into a DP?


----------



## Boc

Started it last night around bedtime, read for about 2 straight hours before finally managing to put it down. Needless to say, this morning I'm sucking (boo being tired + daylight savings!)

Excellent read so far, though as has been brought up, it seems necessarily almost detached from the Ultramarines. I don't really mind so much, as the action is great, and the jumping from POV to POV amongst the UM bring to mind the true scale of the devastation wrought.

Looking forward to finishing it up in the next couple of days, that's for damn sure.


----------



## MontytheMighty

I'd give it 85/100. Very well written. As a casual writer of fan fiction, I could only marvel at Dan Abnett's descriptive prowess. It was like _reading_ a big-budget blockbuster movie 
That said, I think the book was too short. The action was excellent but there wasn't enough character development. The book should've been a 1000 page epic. It just felt a bit too condensed


----------



## Designation P-90

Ok just bought this but haven't started it yet. The book says that Argel Tal is in it. Is it just a cameo or is he featured quite a bit? I ask because he was really interesting in The First Heretic and the more of him the better.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Designation P-90 said:


> Ok just bought this but haven't started it yet. The book says that Argel Tal is in it. Is it just a cameo or is he featured quite a bit? I ask because he was really interesting in The First Heretic and the more of him the better.


He barely features at all. He was not actually present at Calth - as far as I am aware he was with Lorgar elsewhere in Ultramar.


----------



## Designation P-90

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> He barely features at all. He was not actually present at Calth - as far as I am aware he was with Lorgar elsewhere in Ultramar.



Thats too bad. Oh well, I still cant wait to start this.


----------



## Anakwanar

No its not! It has 3 major holes in it! First as always with Dan - ending - the most interesting things happened in 20 last pages! Second - Illuminati, really? Oll is a fething Greek hero? Omg - when he is the most powerful person in the galaxy after the Emperor - living for 31000 years! And third - Tarik omg, someone stay dead in this books today! As for the rest - yes the flaws are great but the book is the one of the most interesting in the list of all 15 to date!


----------



## docgeo

Anakwanar said:


> No its not! It has 3 major holes in it! First as always with Dan - ending - the most interesting things happened in 20 last pages! Second - Illuminati, really? Oll is a fething Greek hero? Omg - when he is the most powerful person in the galaxy after the Emperor - living for 31000 years! And third - Tarik omg, someone stay dead in this books today! As for the rest - yes the flaws are great but the book is the one of the most interesting in the list of all 15 to date!


I am not convinced that that is Tarik. He was beheaded by Little Horus on Istavaan III. I stated in another thread that I would be very suprised if he also removed his geanseed. Then the building was partially collapsed.


----------



## gridge

Anakwanar said:


> No its not! It has 3 major holes in it! First as always with Dan - ending - the most interesting things happened in 20 last pages! Second - Illuminati, really? Oll is a fething Greek hero? Omg - when he is the most powerful person in the galaxy after the Emperor - living for 31000 years! And third - Tarik omg, someone stay dead in this books today! As for the rest - yes the flaws are great but the book is the one of the most interesting in the list of all 15 to date!


I wouldn't call any of these holes...The book is fairly interesting throughout. Oll is part of a group of individuals that the Emperor may even be shown to be one of in time. He is long lived and definitely has some extraordinary capability for sure but that doesn't equate to him having power on the same level or anywhere near the Emperor's. And lastly, that isn't Tarik.


----------



## MontytheMighty

gridge said:


> He is long lived and definitely has some extraordinary capability for sure but that doesn't equate to him having power on the same level or anywhere near the Emperor's.


I don't think Oll is a psyker. He's an highlander *ahem* Perpetual, but not all Perpetuals are incredibly powerful psykers 

I think the Emperor is one of a kind because he's a Perpetual _and_ an awesome psyker rolled into one. What are the chances of that, huh? He was truly a gift to mankind, whether by luck or design. When the Emperor fell, humanity lost its greatest champion. 



> And lastly, that isn't Tarik.


Just a daemon using Tarik's remains?


----------



## Boc

MontytheMighty said:


> Just a daemon using Tarik's remains?


It's a meat suit! Not really sure what sort of influence that warp daemons have on the souls of the "righteous," per se, but I don't see them dragging Tarik himself from whatever afterlife exists in the 40K universe (unlike Lucius who's about as damned as they come).



The introduction of Perpetuals is definitely interesting, as well as having the reappearance of Grammaticus, though his motives seem a little more hazy in this novel... could be I just need to reread the scene where he visits Oll


----------



## Alvarius

Is the wound that Kor inflicted on RG supposed to be the one that makes RB go into a stacis field instead of dying? I thought that it was supposed to be Fulgrim as a Demon Prince that made that cut... And RBs supposed to kill one of Onegon or Alpharius before that to... So what's happening? The blade that made the cut is the one that cut Horus?


----------



## Angel of Blood

docgeo said:


> I am not convinced that that is Tarik. He was beheaded by Little Horus on Istavaan III. I stated in another thread that I would be very suprised if he also removed his geanseed. Then the building was partially collapsed.


As I said in the other quote, the geneseed is very very likely to be Tariks, I would almost go so far as to say it definitely is. As I already said in the other post, Erebus pauses at that one in particular giving it more significance, I find it highly unlikely that Erebus closely knew more than one Tarik. That and the deamon renames itself Tormageddon, I shouldn't need to point out how similar that is to Torgaddon.



gridge said:


> And lastly, that isn't Tarik.


And you know this how? Don't state something as fact when there is no evidence to prove it is or isn't. The chaos gods are immeasurably powerful, and we know for a fact that it isn't beyond their power to resurrect dead Astartes and make them deamons, not just 'meatsuits'(I'm liking the Supernatural reference). If it was an already existing deamon, then why would it first keep the name Tarik Tormageddon(Torgaddon). Sure it's a theory that I can't prove, but none of you can disprove it either. And it is deliciously grimdark



Alvarius said:


> Is the wound that Kor inflicted on RG supposed to be the one that makes RB go into a stacis field instead of dying? I thought that it was supposed to be Fulgrim as a Demon Prince that made that cut... And RBs supposed to kill one of Onegon or Alpharius before that to... So what's happening? The blade that made the cut is the one that cut Horus?


No, was probably just one of the many easter eggs/foreshadowing of the Horus Heresy, albeit a very obvious one. That wasn't *the* anathame, alot of the Word Bearers seemed to be wielding 'athames', some sort of ritual weapon with some power within them.


----------



## randian

Angel of Blood said:


> That wasn't *the* anathame, alot of the Word Bearers seemed to be wielding 'athames', some sort of ritual weapon with some power within them.


It is possible that Kor Phaeron's weapon weakened Guilliman in some way, much as a similar blade weakened Horus, making him vulnerable to the anathame centuries later. It wouldn't take much to tip things from "horribly sick but he'll survive" to "he's going to die, we need to put him in stasis".


----------



## Alvarius

Well, he must be pretty strong to kill Omegon/Alpharius, so the blade can't weaken him that much. And yes, probably it's not one of the primarchs, just a soldier identical to one that he kills. Anyhow, Kor was thinking that the blade he wielded could turn RG with one cut... RB has some things to do before the big sleep.

Thinking of Tarik. The demon has his flesh and soul I'm afraid. He was a significant leader, thats worth a lot to Chaos, he was a loyalist, worth a lot to Chaos to. I would say its pretty obvious that it is Tarik, his soul tormented much like Fulgrim. It's disturbing, exactly what Chaos feeds on. 

KNF was a great book. It would be nice hearing a bit more about how many ships, soldiers of the WB the grid destroyed at the end. It would feel better knowing the magnitude of destruction the WB suffered.  Yes, I'm a Space Smurf fan. May the WB burn in hell (eye of terror) ;-)


----------



## Commander Invictus

Beeing a fan of the ultramarines for + 16 years, you can imagine I anticipaterd this one with mixed feelings. After all this is the one event where the legeion suffers a grievous blow, to say the least. ;-) Nonetheless it dind't let me down one bit; fast paced & epic! The dialogue with the Dreadnouth added a comical note - as someone commented earlier - without being overly homourful. 
The stage is set for another round of war & it will be interesting to read how the ultramarines exact their vengeance. Afther all, the background reads that they are later on credited for destroying a large force of chaos marines, en route to terra.

In my opinion: to be continued!


----------



## gridge

Angel of Blood said:


> And you know this how? Don't state something as fact when there is no evidence to prove it is or isn't. The chaos gods are immeasurably powerful, and we know for a fact that it isn't beyond their power to resurrect dead Astartes and make them deamons, not just 'meatsuits'(I'm liking the Supernatural reference). If it was an already existing deamon, then why would it first keep the name Tarik Tormageddon(Torgaddon). Sure it's a theory that I can't prove, but none of you can disprove it either. And it is deliciously grimdark


Nothing in a fantasy setting is beyond the scope of the gods, but if the issue is examined and weighed against the highest likelihood then it would be a demon in the resurrected husk of Tarik. Meaning that it isn't really the man himself, just a spiteful denizen of the warp making a statement. You're right though, no one I can't state it as a fact. In any case, I personally find it lame.


----------



## Tywin Lannister

Just a minor note, but credit to Dan for having Lorgar call Guilliman a 'giant pompous arsehole', rather than the Americanised 'asshole'. I guess even in the grimdark far future the bad guys are still English...


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Tywin Lannister said:


> Just a minor note, but credit to Dan for having Lorgar call Guilliman a 'giant pompous arsehole', rather than the Americanised 'asshole'. I guess even in the grimdark far future the bad guys are still English...


Duh. Every good villain is British. We are the best at being maniacal badarses.


----------



## Duke_Leto

Coming late to this party as only now reading Know No Fear (half way through). Having read this back-to-back with Outcast Dead and Deliverance Lost (having been on a 40k fix for a few months prior to that) I have to say that IMHO KNF is proving to be one of the best HH novels so far.

I love the build up. Yes WE (the readers) know what is coming but they (UMs) don't. The pieces of the jigsaw all being moved into place, the clock ticking down AND most importantly for me the WRITING STYLE are making this an excellent, can't put down read (well I have put it down obviously because I am posting here).

Have not read all posts on the 18 pages of the this thread so don't know if this is mentioned before but...

*I really like the Third Person Omniscient in the Present Tense approach*. It jarred at first but then I GOT IT. Because the clock is counting down using this writing style helps add to the immediacy of the situation with events revealed in "real time".

Simply loving it. Hope the quality stands up all the way to the end.


----------



## Designation P-90

I just finished this book. Overall I would give it an 8/10. My main problem is that the book has too many different POVs. If there was another 100 pages in the book maybe it would be okay, but as is too many of the story lines are cut short, merged with others VERY quickly, or forgotten about (the Dreadnought). Despite any flaws the second half of the book was AMAZING. Seeing Guilliman in action against The WB's and Kor Phaeron was a joy. 

A thought, after writing two books featuring "perpetuals" is Abnett going to eventually write a HH book (or any 40k book) focused on who these people are and what their role in the universe is?


----------



## pb100

randian said:


> It is possible that Kor Phaeron's weapon weakened Guilliman in some way, much as a similar blade weakened Horus, making him vulnerable to the anathame centuries later. It wouldn't take much to tip things from "horribly sick but he'll survive" to "he's going to die, we need to put him in stasis".


I know it's after the Heresy, but I hope they visit the fight between Fulgrim and RG. I wonder if he voluntarily went into stasis, or he was so weak his SM just threw him in there. If he went in voluntarily, it might explain they supposed healing in the current 40k timeline.

To through in my two sense about the Tarik reference, I thought during Garror mentioned seeing his body during Legion of One.



When he traveled to Istavann III to save Loken he mentioned seeing the remains of a dead Luna Wolf Captain. 


It doesn't prove that it wasn't Tarik, just food for thought.


----------



## Zooey72

Don't know if anyone has covered this yet, but I think this is the start of Pappa Smurfs corruption.

He questioned the Emps decision at Nikea. We know from the 'tales of heresy' that according to Lion'el "it seems Horus is not the only one who thinks he is heir to the emps throne". And finaly he got stabbed with Kor Phareon's Dagger, the same kind of dagger that turned Horus BTW. As far as Pappa Smurf's death goes - if Kor Phareon can live w/o a heart I think Pappa Smurf can heal a severed head - esp. if he is corrupted. If you remember Pappa smurf more or less does take over the imperium after the emp goes veggie.

This book was OK. Better than "Legion", but I think a fart in the face is better than that book. Dan thinks Highly of his own writing though taking 2 char from his old books. I myself think his writing is choppy, and that is being kind. His story with "Legion" made Alpharius look like the idiot child of the Primarch family. 

Ya, humanity needs to die so that xenos can inherit the Galaxy... MORON! I myself am a rabid Speciesist. My vote is always cast for the humans to win.

To give Dan some credit I did like the "how many eldar are there" thing. But outside of writing Loken I think his writing sucks.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Zooey72 said:


> And finaly he got stabbed with Kor Phareon's Dagger, the same kind of dagger that turned Horus BTW.


No he didn't. 



Zooey72 said:


> As far as Pappa Smurf's death goes - if Kor Phareon can live w/o a heart I think Pappa Smurf can heal a severed head - esp. if he is corrupted. If you remember Pappa smurf more or less does take over the imperium after the emp goes veggie.


Except where he decentralises the Astartes and hands power to the Council of Terra.


----------



## Zooey72

Baron Spikey said:


> No he didn't.
> 
> 
> Except where he decentralises the Astartes and hands power to the Council of Terra.


ya, but if you want to put any credit to Danny boy the goal of alpa legion was for the Emperor to lose. If he didn't lose than the galaxy would be the shithole it currently is in 40k. So in the end chaos won if you look at it in the grand scheme of things since the beloved xenos will not inherit the galaxy. Wouldn't you think decentralizing the legions would be a good way of breaking up power and making the galaxy that much harder to control?

Not only that, but Pappa Smurf gave the emp the big "fuck you" in the end because he got rid of Nikea. I can't see any other way it can be written other than Pappa Smurf saying "we need the Librarians now more than ever... uh, dad was wrong". I am also curious to know who will be pushing the 'god emperor' thing after the Heresy is over. I wouldn't doubt it would be Big G. A quote from one of the old "realms of chaos" books that I like.

"a small mind is easily filled with faith".

I thought Kor did stab pappa smurf. I may need to read that again. But I could have sworn he cut his throat. I was reading quickly at work on my break so I could be wrong. Not a mortal wound for a guy who spent a few hours in the vacume of space... but enough to corrupt.


----------



## Zooey72

and in addition...

it is the only thing that makes sense. That or the Emperor is an idiot. Despite Horus's best efforts in the end the Emp. still knew he had 3 'loyal' legions coming to 'save' terra. Why teleport up to the ship and play into Horus's hands? Only reason I can think of is the one on one raping he was getting on terra may have turned into a 3way.


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## ckcrawford

I was actually surprised that the knife didn't do anything except wound him. I thought it might have been tainted or something, especially since they were the only effective weapons against the daemons.


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## Rems

Zooey72 said:


> and in addition...
> 
> it is the only thing that makes sense. That or the Emperor is an idiot. Despite Horus's best efforts in the end the Emp. still knew he had 3 'loyal' legions coming to 'save' terra. Why teleport up to the ship and play into Horus's hands? Only reason I can think of is the one on one raping he was getting on terra may have turned into a 3way.


The Emperor didn't know that any of the loyalist legions were coming. His prescient abilities was clouded by that point and he couldn't see beyond the start of the siege. 

He didn't know that the Dark Angels and Space Wolves were coming or how far away they were. As it turns out yes he may have been able to avoid teleporting up to Horus given how close relief was.

However the Emperor lacked that information and the loyalists were in danger of being completely wiped out. He had to do something and the best course of action was taking out Horus, decapitating the traitor's leadership structure and killing the only force that bound the traitor legions together.


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## Zooey72

Rems said:


> The Emperor didn't know that any of the loyalist legions were coming. His prescient abilities was clouded by that point and he couldn't see beyond the start of the siege.
> 
> He didn't know that the Dark Angels and Space Wolves were coming or how far away they were. As it turns out yes he may have been able to avoid teleporting up to Horus given how close relief was.
> 
> However the Emperor lacked that information and the loyalists were in danger of being completely wiped out. He had to do something and the best course of action was taking out Horus, decapitating the traitor's leadership structure and killing the only force that bound the traitor legions together.


most of the fluff supports that the emp. knew it all. The only reason it was a fight was because the emp. would not kill Horus. He loved him too much.

At any rate. after "outcast dead" settles the score in the short term. Ya, the Emp. knew what was waiting for him. Better to get a stalemate than a checkmate.


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## Shadow Walker

'And finaly he got stabbed with Kor Phareon's Dagger, the same kind of dagger that turned Horus BTW.' 

Athame from KKF is different than Anathame from HR, FG etc.


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## Kaghlan

Just finished the book, overall a good effort. What did bother me was that it was presented as some sort of case-file, while the actual content was anything but an archive.
I would've preferred if it was a consistent archive (like the stories within the rulebooks), or just a story, but not this flawed execution. The epilogue was flawed as well in my opinion. I think the epilogue could have been left out for a stronger result.

Even though the Ultramarines are still the Mary Sues of the W40k setting in my opinion, I got some liking to them because of characters like Thiel and Ventanus, something which 'Battle for the Abyss' did not.

(And I know that "Mary Sue" usually means a idealised character without notable flaws and that this novel did show (major) flaws in the Ultramarine-doctrine, they're still one of the blandest legions IMO).


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## Hrolleif

I thoroughly enjoyed this book. The many POVs gave voice to the scale and desperate sense of the battle, speaking to the actual conflict and at the personal level.


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## Baltar

My take on KNF:

I actually enjoyed the first half of the book a lot.

But, since it all actually kicked off, I lost a fair bit of interest. It went from detailed betrayal to complete carnage. Carnage is fun, and necessary, but it's not very gripping.

I like some of the ultramarines, but I still hate Guilliman as a character. He just doesn't have that flair of epic that is easy to give some of the other primarchs. One of them has to be that way, I suppose.


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