# 6th Edition Daemons - General Discussion



## D-A-C

Hey everyone.

I just wanted to start a thread were us Daemon players could discuss the changes facing us in the 6th Edition of Warhammer 40k.

So lets take stock of what we know so far:

1. *Deep Striking* - We know that mishaps only occur on a roll of 1 now instead of a 1 AND 2. This obviously of great significance as we have to bring our entire army in via deepstrike, with no realistic (icons suck atm) way of safely getting on boards with heavy terrain or infiltrated units.

2. *Allies* - Could be really interesting for us, don't you think? Chaos Space Marines are the most obvious Allies, and if, by some miracle we could use their icons, this could be a really powerful pairing. Also, if they get a new codex soon, the 'Great Law of Codex Creep' means it should be powerful indeed.

3. *AP Power Weapons *- A bitter, bitter blow for Khorne Daemons. AP3 for Bloodletters and Crushers means that Terminators now get a pass from our demonic fury. Sure AP3 is great as 'standard' for our troops, but its still a further blow against taking either unit over some other choices in the codex.

4. *Furious Charge* - No longer get an initiative bonus. This IMO break bloodletters. No grenades, can't instant kill AP2 and now strikes at Initiative 4 so marines get to hit us even on the charge. They are now overcosted, even for a unit with powerweapons as standard. They are to fragile (T4 5++) and no longer killy enough.

5. *Rage* - Extra attacks with no weakness of having to charge nearest units (wouldn't be as big a problem with deepstrike anway)? Khorne Daemons better get this, enough said.

6. *Fearless / Fear *- Fearless units no longer get penalised with extra casualties in CC = definate win AND units having to pass a leadsership test or fight us at WS1 is a big boost against armies like Guardsman, Tau and perhaps others.

7 *Flying MC's/Smash *- Daemon Princes just got even better as they can now move 24" and perform a flying Attack that also allows them to ignore small arms fre. Not sure of the full details yet, but this already sounds good.

Also, halving the Daemons number of attacks for Double its Strength thanks to the smash ability, no makes the Unholy Might trait important. There is a big difference between two strength 10 and 2 strength 12 attacks.

8 *FNP 5+* - Feel no Pain has been altered so that it is now a 5 plus save against EVERYTHING, rather than a 4+ ignored by AP 1/2 and powerweapons. So in a sense, Plaguebearers became alit less resilient, and now maybe Pink Horrors will be the number one Troop choice?

9 *Charge Distances/Fleet* - Because of the new random charge range units such as Bloodcrushers just got alot more deadly (to an extent). Sure you could roll two ones, but you could also roll two sixes. Think of that 12" charging Crushers! However Slaanesh Troops now get to re-roll their Run and one of their Charge dice thanks to the Fleet ability, so Seekers of Slaanesh are seemingly still the best Fast Attack choice.

10 *D-A-C Rumour!* - The only rumour I have ever come across in my life is that Furies (perhaps) might be getting a rule change via a White Dwarf along with a Finecast release some time around August. Is this something to do with the new Flyer rules, will they have Haywire Type grenades? Already as they move like Jump Troops, we know that they now get a great ability to re-roll their charge dice, so an overhaul for this unit could make them actually useful!!!


Anyway, those are just some of the effects of the new rules. I'm sure there are plenty more to talk about and discuss.

So what do you guys think about how 6th edition rule changes will efect Chaos Daemons?


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## Voss

With rending (apparently) staying the same, and power weapons degrading slightly, I can see an emphasis on Slaanesh/Tzeentch (as overwatch benefits Tzeentch daemons more or less exclusively.. flamers, btw...) lists over Nurgle/Khorne.


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## fishywinkles

Epidemius' tally provides a more dramatic buff now, going from 5+ to 3+ FNP and attacks "ignoring armour saves" means that nurgle tally lists can still ignor 2+ saves (provided they get the kill count).

Bloodthirsters become very attractive options seeing as they can vector strike at S8 (the rumours I have seen suggest vector strike doesn't benefit from the smash rule), as well as gain a 2++ save versus those pesky new psychic powers.

Also with the cover nerf Tzeentch units get more value out of their 4++ than they did during 5th. Though this can be a problem for a lot of the more fragile units who used to rely on cover, such as daemonettes.

With the vehicle weapon skill rumours abound then almost everything in the codex gets a decent sized buff (especially screamers), on top of Daemon infantry and MCs getting a buff to assault range thanks to the new 2d6" assault range.

While we will have to wait and see for the rulebook to come out I think Daemons will be more fragile than ever but more able to deal that damage, terminators not withstanding.


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## LukeValantine

If the wound chart is the same then we can expect str to still cap at 10 making smash unholy might useless in most cases.


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## Ravner298

We hit vehicles easier now.

Deep strike is slightly less scary.

Flying MCs can vector strike the shit out of vehicles (no smash, but still high strength, I believe it resolves against rear armor as well).

We can ally with CSM, and DS off their icons (even our inital drop down), and benefit from their rules/psychic powers and vise versa. (brothers in arms status on the matrix)

Crushers and letters are weaker due to loss of +I in furious charge, and hellblades being ap3. (which blows because one of my lists is fatecrusher)

Slaanesh units are faster, and rending counts as ap2 so are still a good option to swamp people with, (and glance vehicles to death) although they are even more vunerable to shooting (and rapid fire change means more shots outside of 12').

Epidemius with plague marine allies will be ridiculous. Look out for an FAQ to errata tally to only effect nurgle daemons, instead of 'followers with the mark of nurgle'. 

We have no forseeable way to deal with enemy fliers, even giving some shooting units skyfire won't help due to our crap close range shooting. I hope that dac-rumor is true, which I believe I heard whispers of new fury models as well, just not WD rules to go along with them. (makes sense though because currently nobody would buy them if they remade the models)

In general, our troops have the option to assault further than before. 

No psychic powers hurt, but hey thats what allies are for right?

Night fighting greatly benefits daemons, and it will show up in more games.


All in all it should be interesting. I for one plan on taking CSM allies to make some really interesting combinations and fill out the shooting phase. It'll be interesting to see what they give daemons to deal with flyers, however.


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## D-A-C

Troops Wise

Bloodletters - Can't take on anything in cover (no grenades), can't deal with AP2, are only initiative 4, can't assault off of a depstrike, only have a 5++ Save and if the romours about PW's giving you a 5++ then that is wasted. Overall, they are now a really poor choice for the cost.

Daemonettes - Have now been promoted to dealing with AP2 as Rending has stayed the same, meaning their grenades (assault AND defensive) above average initiative, they now get to reroll their run dice and ONE of their two charge dice because of Fleet, but can no longer assault off of a run. So in effect they have a smaller threat range and before, despite the fact they would now be the better CC Troop choice.

Plaguebearers - They got their FnP save reduced from a 4+ to a 5+ however the 5+ may be taken against anything that doesn't cause Instant Death. Despite this they are still alot less survivable as realisticly small arms fire was what shot at them. They also cannot run because of SnP, but I can't remember if this was always the case.

Also should any of the above three charge into CC, then they are vulnerable to the new volley/snap shot (or whatever) its called rule that lets enemies fire a volley at BS1, which sucks because Daemonettes and Bloodletters aren't exactly survivable.

This brings us then to the fourth option:

Pink Horrors - These guys got better due to the fact that 4+ cover has been reduced, so their 4++ save just got alot less common, and they hopefully can benefit from that snapshot/volley rule if they get assaulted.

Overall, IMO Pink Horrors just became the go to unit for troops in thsi codex.

1. They provide a 'cheap' bolt

2. 5 w/ Bolt is only 95pts

3. They are reasonable safe against shooting thanks to their 4++ 

4 They provide the much needed dakka to take out blobs of enemy troops

5. They haven't been penalised by any of the new rules (so far), whereas every other choice has in some area.



I hate to say it, but the idea of running a 'pure' (no allies) Daemon army in 6th is starting to make me think:







We were low tier in 5th, and I can see nothing thats going to change that despite my initial enthusiasm.

I just hope the rumor about us getting a new codex in 2013 is true.


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## Ravner298

Sadly in this case the bad out weighs the good in my opinion. Fleet generally means less mobility than in 5th, coupled with rapid fire getting 2 shots regardless of 12' or not (if stationary), ONTOP of snap fire, ONTOP of removing casualities from the front....you're looking at a serious damper to our threat range. 

The good side of this would be the shift off of transport spam and back into infantry blobs, coupled with vehicles generally being easier for CC units to deal with.

The problem with relying on horrors to be your 'go to' troop is that they were never really survivable to begin with. You're looking at almost double the volume of fire from a standard rapid fire squad, and the horrors haven't gotten any boosts to survivability. 

I'm still anxious to see what unit(s) they give skyfire to as a way to deal with the inevitable flyer spam. Somehow I just don't think it'll be close to enough.


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## Zion

HHate to nitpick, but unless something changes all characteristics max out at 10. Because of this Daemon Princes can't Smash at S12.


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## D-A-C

Ravner298 said:


> Sadly in this case the bad out weighs the good in my opinion. Fleet generally means less mobility than in 5th, coupled with rapid fire getting 2 shots regardless of 12' or not (if stationary), ONTOP of snap fire, ONTOP of removing casualities from the front....you're looking at a serious damper to our threat range.
> 
> The good side of this would be the shift off of transport spam and back into infantry blobs, coupled with vehicles generally being easier for CC units to deal with.
> 
> The problem with relying on horrors to be your 'go to' troop is that they were never really survivable to begin with. You're looking at almost double the volume of fire from a standard rapid fire squad, and the horrors haven't gotten any boosts to survivability.
> 
> I'm still anxious to see what unit(s) they give skyfire to as a way to deal with the inevitable flyer spam. Somehow I just don't think it'll be close to enough.


Well as I said, rumour has it that Furies are getting a makeover and people have suggested it will be to help deal with fliers.

Yeah, I think what I imagine when I say pink horrors will be the go to Troop, I mean I think we will see lots more:

5 Pink Horrors w/Bolt

Take two, 190pts + 5 Plaguebearers = 265pts 3 Troops one camp objectives and then go and buy better things. 

I honestly can't see any reason to take Bloodletters at all. And to be fair they were actually useful in last edition, but now, even a blob of them kind of sucks. 

Same with Damonettes, now why would you ever not just take Seekers, I mean, there is nothing to really compete with them in terms of usefulness in the Fast Attack section except for Hounds and Screamers in SPECIFIC situations. But general use Seekers till win.




Zion said:


> HHate to nitpick, but unless something changes all characteristics max out at 10. Because of this Daemon Princes can't Smash at S12.


Yeah thanks for mentioning that, so in actually fact Unholy Might is a bust completely, and in a sense Bloodthirsters just got screwed.



Finally, I am currently painting my 3 Bloodcrushers and to be honest, the fact they are only initiative four with no way to ever get a boost to five has really runined my enthusiasm for painting them.

Sure it was always tricky, and there main benefit was that they were survivable, but combined with their slowness, lack of grenades and inability to reliably kill anything AP2, I really am down in the dumps about fielding them.

Which is a shame, because they are one of the best looking models in the army.


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## LukeValantine

Fact is GW wanted to make daemons extra killy in CC, but they seem to not know how to do this well retaining balance so they handicapped the codex at release with deep striking and magor draw back to the units that would make most casual gamers go WTF. However at this point it is a up hill battle to get motivated to even start or continuing playing them as this edition is favoring shooting , which when coupled with the weight of new and old draw backs ends up crippling the army (Something that the majority of daemons suck at. 

After all over watch and random charge lengths may not be a big deal for say marines, but when you are almost as many points as a marine with a 5+ save at T3-4 all of a sudden having 2-4 wound inflicted before you reach CC or failing a charge is the difference between a unit making CC once or twice in the entire game or being lost before it does anything what so ever.

Fact is Daemons look like they will be the ugly red haired child of this edition. Hell the only sales I see going the armies way will be as specialized detachments with CSM's. Kinda why I am optimistic about them being able to deep strike of their icons.

Fact is daemons as they currently are were weak last edition in that they lost their first turn and were easy to beat down with area denial strategies, all the current edition is doing is taking them down yet another peg (Until the FaQ is released it looks like daemons lose out on the vast majority of the advantages of this edition. (Honestly I don't give a shit about the slight change to the deep strike table as losing another turn or two to the other deep strike results can be equivalent to being destroyed anyways as they often will not do anything till turn 3-4 when most of your army will probably be dead.


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## MidnightSun

Is Snap Fire _really_ that important? 8 Marines rapid-firing you will kill only one or two dudes, maybe three for Daemonettes.

Unholy Might isn't a complete bust as before you assault your vehicle of choice you can make a Vector Strike against it, for which the +1 Strength is actually going to be quite good. Even if you make the Strike against Infantry, it's the difference between 3s and 2s to kill Marines.

3 x Daemon Princes and 2 x Bloodthirsters/Lords of Change (the Flying HQs) is probably the way for Daemons to go now. Especially with a universal drop in survivability (the odds and ends of Snap Fire, I4 with FC, 5+ FnP), Fateweaver might be a more obvious choice now.

I imagine I'll pick up a cohort of Tzeentch Daemons, purely to give my Chaos Terminators 2+ re-rollable armour against Power Weapons and also add a reasonably durable, reasonably shooty bubble-wrap to my army with Horrors. Oh, and Changeling antics. Fun times.

Midnight


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## LukeValantine

I believe you can't vector strike then assault, and unholy strength and flight makes a DP 160pts for a T5 5+save. Yah not very impressive.

Additionally those 5 models will coast 980 to 1063 pts. So generally speaking its a very weak army that can be wiped out fairly easily to any half way decent ranged army (Note 1-2 of those MC's will never see combat.). So no despite all the bells and boubles given to MC's (Flying ones) its still a bad build.


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## D-A-C

Maybe I'm in a really negative place right now (although it is only plastic models at the end of the day) but I think Codex Chaos Daemons is now f*cked until we get a new codex.

We have now been reduced to *shudder* Allies. This is what we have been reduced to, as many people who don't play Daemons have already crawled out of the woodwork and said "Oh I wouldn't mind a few Daemons with my army".

For me I'm actually thinking of going down that route for the forseeable future.

What do you guys think, is their any particular Ally you are thinking of?

Here are our choices:

*Blood Brothers 

*Only one option here, CSM's. There codex at the moment kind of sucks, but I think, as people have suggested, a Nurgle Tally Death Guard Army could be very, very, very, very nasty while it lasts.

Me, I think I'll wait till the new codex comes out.

*Allies of Convenience

*Only one option here, Imperial Guard. I personally don't like the way IG play, so count me out, but maybe someone who knows more could chip in about this.

*Desperate Allies*

Marginally benificial due to all the negatives around these alliances, but still we get two choices, Tau and Dark Eldar.

Tau might not be too bad maybe you could go pure assault Daemons and pure shooting Tau or something.

Dark Eldar are my preferred choice here BUT I AM BIASED lol. 

Love the normal DE fluff, then there is the great story of an Archon teaming up with daemons to overthrow Vect, the codex is awesome (although maybe a bit worse in 6th), models are amazing, but still desperate Allies puts a huge dampener on things as there are no bonuses and only negatives.

Still I'm thinking of mono-Tzeentch goodness with some really CC orientated DE mayhem.


What's your guys take on our Allies, because personally, I think pure daemons has lost out bigtime.


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## LukeValantine

Yep but apparently nothing is stopping them from using CSM icons. SO they are now super best fiends. No scatter....EVER! Hell take a detachment of 2 units of plague marines in rhinos with icons and see as you army arrives right where you left your rhinos at deployment.


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## SolidusPRime

Guys I had a big question about the new book and daemons - It lists the rules for "daemons" now in the big book. It lists what properties "Daemon" confers. Does this now completely replace the "daemon" property from our book?

Because if it does, daemonic assault is no longer in play and practically nothing deepstrikes....


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## D-A-C

SolidusPRime said:


> Guys I had a big question about the new book and daemons - It lists the rules for "daemons" now in the big book. It lists what properties "Daemon" confers. Does this now completely replace the "daemon" property from our book?
> 
> Because if it does, daemonic assault is no longer in play and practically nothing deepstrikes....


What does the big book say at the entry of daemons?

However, there is no way we no longer deepstrike as it specifically explains it in our FAQ.



Also, as an aside, Chaos Space Marine Independant Characters cannot join units of Daemons AND it appears Daemonic Heralds cannot join other CSM units.

So no Kharn leading Bloodletters (not that this unit would be pointless anyway as it would suck, but no Lucius with Daemonettes, Typhus with Plaguebearers and Ahriman with Horrors.

(Although I might be reading the second part of the above rule wrong. It might just be that the CSM character has to start in reserve with his assigned unit ala Daemonic Assault.)

This blows.

(Also, if someone could answer Solidus' question regarding the big rule book entry on daemons and how it effects us, I'll throw +rep your way, thanks).


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## MidnightSun

Daemons now gain Fear (not sure what this does, but I believe it's that your opponent must take a Ld test in CC, if he fails he's down to WS1 for the phase), and anyone without an Invulnerable listed gets a 5+ Invulnerable save. Nothing else modifies the Codex: Chaos Daemons army-wide Special Rules.

Still can't use Chaos Space Marine Icons, as they specify Summoned Daemons. What with all the AP3 Power Weapon nerfs going around, I imagine that adding a squad of Chaos Terminators to a Fateweaver list could be quite nasty.

Midnight


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## Mushkilla

D-A-C said:


> What does the big book say at the entry of daemons?
> 
> (Also, if someone could answer Solidus' question regarding the big rule book entry on daemons and how it effects us, I'll throw +rep your way, thanks).


It doesn't affect us as in the faq it says daemons gain the fear special rule (so the daemon rule from the codex is still used)

As for how 6th ed affects us its not all that bad. Slaanesh and Tzeentch got good boosts. 

*Tzeetch flying MCs are great:*

-Flying makes them more resistant as they are only hit on 6s, can't be hit by blasts, templates or be assaulted.

-Super Mobile so can easilly get into great possition to use breath of change or bolt of change against side or rear armour (as they can shoot 360 degrees despite the flying 
restrictions). This also has great synergy with how casualties are removed.

-Vector strike is effective without needing to get tied up in close combat.

-Breath of change now inflicts d3 hits when you get charged.

-Flying MCs can chose to be in swoop mode when they come from reserve (i.e when you deep strike).

-4++ save is just as good as before, also comes in handy when you get shot down!

-Fear isn't great but not bad when it does work.

-The deepstrike mishaps are 50% less likely to kill you.

-Reserve rolls are better (turn 2 3+).

-MCs have move through cover which means they always pass dangerous terrain tests, making removing any danger from deep striking into terrain.

*Slaanesh Keeper of Secrets (and Slaanesh Princes):*

-Smash attacks can be used to half your number of attack, great against vehicles and tough opponents (wraithlords, dreadnaughts, etc) S10 AP2. the ability to cause instant death is also invaluable. However it can also be used to avoid whipping out a unit in your close combat phase by halving your number of attacks (with the removal of no retreat wounds this can keep you in combat with one marine). This has fantastic synergy with Hit and Run. (It's all about staying in combat until your next assault phase so you can avoid shooting)

-Challenges are amazing for the keeper of secrets as he will beat almost anything in a challenge WS8, I10, the option to use smash attacks for instant death as well as being able to reduce attacks with transfixing gaze mean that the opponent is almost guaranteed to be defeated before he strikes. If your opponent refuses the challenge you get to nominate a model which can't fight (often the model that has the best chance of being able to hurt you, powerfist characters etc). This also means his leadership can't be used for the fear (both happen at the same time?!) test or break tests. If the character accepts the rest of his unit does not get to fight. Win, win! (and yes keeper of secrets is listed as a MC(ch) character in the BRB appendix)

-Hammer of wrath free I10 AP- unmodified strength hit not bad for MCs.

-Fleat change is good as you can re-roll both dice or one dice for charges increasing charge range considerably. Also means more synergy with pavane.

-Pavane can be use for even more shenanigans due to how wounded models are now removed, re-arrange the unit before assaulting so you can kill specific models before they can pill in (E.g moving a special weapon marine so he will be in base contact with you when you assault). Reduce the number of models that can pile in. Re-arrange the unit before shooting it, so that the models you want removed are closest to the shooting unit. The possibilities are endless.

-Aura of acquiescence is still great. 

So I think this editions is looking pretty good despite the crippling changes to blood letters and plaguebearers. As Khorne once said "Don't lose your head! Stay positive!" :biggrin:


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## D-A-C

Just a quick tip for Daemon players.

I have been scouting through our codex looking at ways to adjust to the new editions, and here is a handy little lifesaver.

Skulltaker is still really good.

Now, I personally always used him in a chariot to keep costs down, and to get an extra mini-MC on the table, and this tactic is still perfectly viable IMO.

*He is Initiative 5 which is a big deal because of the Furious Charge change and he Fury of Khorne means he has rending (but on a 4+ instead of 6) which causes Instant Death when it is caused. So essentially he is our answer to squads of Terminators. 

Either run him in a chariot, or on a Bloodcrusher with a group of Bloodcrushers (give one fury as well, even though its a normal 6) and ruin Terminators days.

The only thing you have to worry about is the lack of Grenades.*


But I think Skulltaker could see alot more action under 6th. Personally I always loved the unit anyway, but for people not taking either a Bloodthirster or Keeper of Secrets he could prove very useful.

*Also, you can just suicide deepstrike 3 flamers next to the Terminators for 105pts and laugh, and there is only a 1 in 6 chance you will lose the unit.*


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## Mushkilla

Yeah skulltaker is a nice terminator killer.

Three other little gems I have found.

Screamers of Tzeetch got a great boots, now hitting stationary vehicles automatically and moving vehicles on a 3+ with their melta bombs makes them pretty nasty. What's even better is they can move 12" and assault 2d6 so have a larger threat range and are supper mobile thanks to their 24" turbo boost (moving up to 36" a turn).

Boon of mutation, with the added mobility and survivability of flying MCs this gift becomes a lot more usable especially since a swoop move means you can't be assaulted. Because it inflicts no wounds there are no saves of any kind that can be taken and more importantly no "look out sir", its not a psychic power so no rolls to ignore it. A 33% chance to remove a T4 character and a 50% chance to remove a T3 character from the game is pretty nifty, also the spawn no longer gives victory points or kill points. 

Blessing of the blood god, a 2+ save against all the new nasty psychic powers running about.


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## Silverclaw

It is also worth noting that it is possible to vektor strike flyers, this is by no means a perfect way to take them down (as you have to catch them), but i think it is the best option without allies... And with a couple of flying MC it should be possible to catch something :grin:

But a really nice thing i found was a nifty boost to Lords of change and Tzeench Daemon princes. The unapreciated SOUL DEVOURER, and this is a wonderfull tool because it is a powerweapon :wink: 
So you can pick watever weapon you want, my favorite is the power maul for a cheap +2 strength, you dont even have to worry about the lousy AP since Smash makes all your attacks AP 2. Concusion and the chance for instant kill is just an added bonus.


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## D-A-C

Silverclaw said:


> It is also worth noting that it is possible to vektor strike flyers, this is by no means a perfect way to take them down (as you have to catch them), but i think it is the best option without allies... And with a couple of flying MC it should be possible to catch something :grin:
> 
> But a really nice thing i found was a nifty boost to Lords of change and Tzeench Daemon princes. The unapreciated SOUL DEVOURER, and this is a wonderfull tool because it is a powerweapon :wink:
> So you can pick watever weapon you want, my favorite is the power maul for a cheap +2 strength, you dont even have to worry about the lousy AP since Smash makes all your attacks AP 2. Concusion and the chance for instant kill is just an added bonus.


That rule about Soul Devourer doesn't work like that. I thought it did as well, but I was wrong.

The ruling for power weapons state: _If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules...

_Soul Devourer features a further special rule, i.e. take a LD Test or suffer Instant Death.

So that's a definite no go on Strength 8 Lords of Change.


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## Silverclaw

Gorram it...

I missed that part, guess the soul devourer is still not worth much :angry:

Fortunately the LoC is still pretty awesome, with "master of sorcery" and "we are legion" you can even vektor-strike and shoot 2 different weapons at 2 different targets all in 1 round.
All while you are pretty tough due to the combination of flying and a 3++ save.
The free +2 strength would have been a nice addition thou.


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## jigplums

Bonuses daemons got with 6th edition

Enemy MUST deploy half their army....no more all reserve counter

DAEMON PRINCES and GREATER DAEMONS giving possible 5 flying monsterous creatures


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