# Mind shackle



## maximus2467 (Jun 14, 2007)

Anybody out there got any tips on how to deal with mind shackle scarabs? They're bloody annoying


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Same way I deal with flying Daemon Princes. Shoot at them as much as possible before they get within charge range, then shoot at them a bit more instead of charging. If they're still getting into combat then completely ignore the unit, kite it as best you can, and kill everything else before it kills you.


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## Nacho libre (Feb 23, 2013)

Tar pit the scarabs with a big cheap unit to keep them busy for a few turns.


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

Nacho libre said:


> Tar pit the scarabs with a big cheap unit to keep them busy for a few turns.


Mindshackle Scarabs isn't a unit, its a Wargear that Lords and Overlords can take. In close combat, if the victim of the Scarabs fail a 3d6 leadership, they hit themselves/their own unit instead of attacking.


The best way is really to avoid combat with the Overlord/lord wielding it as much as possible. If you have a sergeant, have him take the challenge so your super killy HQ can wipe of the rest of the squad.

If the Necron player is like me, I have the Overlord in a Command Barge. To limit his mobility, destroy the barge as soon as possible before it can reach your lines and cause havoc.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

If you have Fateweaver, you can often reroll the highest D6 on the LD test, giving you a decent chance of passing the test.

Buut yeah, some sort of big, fearless unit with minimal characters strikes me as best. Say, plague zombies as the ideal option.

If they're on a Command Barge rather than have a Destroyer Lord body, yeah, take out that Barge.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

As others have said, don't let it reach its target. If that means destroying the delivery system (Command Barge), shooting it, or tarpitting (depending on your army and its capabilities), then that's what you have to do.

Also, be sure to ask your opponent what each Lord/Overlord has equipped. The Scarabs are so minuscule in fluff that you could never realistically model it on, so it can often come as a surprise to find you're in combat with something with them equipped. With Necrons especially, ask for a quick rundown of what each piece of gear does so you can appreciate the threat - forewarned is forearmed after all. Unless its closed list (or you have a dick for an opponent), they should be happy to go through with you if you're unfamiliar. I make a point of going through my army before deployment and explaining what everything does even when unasked, it's fairer and helps avoid awkward situations later on.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Ignore them. Necrons are shitty in melee outside of Wraiths and Destroyer Lords. Destroyer Lords are very rarely run in more than singles as bringing two deprives you of a Royal Court (the exception is Wraithwing, but that's just a matter of applying small arms fire to a bunch of essentially-Tactical-Marines-but-with-no-guns until you whittle them down to just the two Destroyer Lords.

The basic Lords will be in squads of Warriors and such, so you can just charge into combat at the far end of the unit to prevent the Lord from being able to challenge or strike, kill a bunch of Warriors since they're terrible in combat, and then wait until he takes Leadership on minus however many you killed since his 3" pile-ins aren't enough to get him into base-to-base after you've killed a couple.

Avoiding them at range is really easy. Avoiding them in melee is surprisingly easy.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> The basic Lords will be in squads of Warriors and such, so you can just charge into combat at the far end of the unit to prevent the Lord from being able to challenge or strike, kill a bunch of Warriors since they're terrible in combat, and then wait until he takes Leadership on minus however many you killed since his 3" pile-ins aren't enough to get him into base-to-base after you've killed a couple.


Alternately, challenge with your Champion so your beatstick melee Lord can slaughter half a dozen Warriors, for the aforementioned LD chance to run down the unit. No guarantees, but it'll work much of the time.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

Mind-shacke only works if the bearer of it can get into base 2 base. So try and move round a unit if you have the luxury to get the lord at the back when you assault. AS midnight said most cron stuff isn't that great in combat and the main way to get rid of them is just cause them to flee on leadership, as they are pretty much guaranteed to be ran down. If you are wanting to challenge the Lord with one of your characters or they challenge you. If it is your turn you can make them use their mindshackle before the challenge starts potentially leaving you characters to slug it out as normal.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> Alternately, challenge with your Champion so your beatstick melee Lord can slaughter half a dozen Warriors, for the aforementioned LD chance to run down the unit. No guarantees, but it'll work much of the time.


Better to not challenge at all - with closest-to-closest movement in assault, it's not too difficult to prevent certain models from striking in the first round. And against Necrons, the first round is the important one - either they'll break and you'll kill them all, or they'll hold, Reanimate, and pile in, and before you know it you'll be either drowning in Warriors with a couple of Ghost Arks nearby while the Lord kills two or three of your dudes per turn, or they'll smash one of their exceedingly efficient counter-assault units into the combat and Wraiths will eat you.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Better to not challenge at all - with closest-to-closest movement in assault, it's not too difficult to prevent certain models from striking in the first round. And against Necrons, the first round is the important one - either they'll break and you'll kill them all, or they'll hold, Reanimate, and pile in, and before you know it you'll be either drowning in Warriors with a couple of Ghost Arks nearby while the Lord kills two or three of your dudes per turn, or they'll smash one of their exceedingly efficient counter-assault units into the combat and Wraiths will eat you.


Well, somebody can only accept a challenge if they're engaged in the combat--if they're more than 5" away from their nearest model in B2B (so after their 3" pile-in, are still out of 2") they're not in a place where they can accept a challenge at the beginning of the phase anyways (and CSM, at least, always have to challenge). So good for you if you can arrange that, but you can't rely on rolling up the flank of a 20-Warrior blob or something every single time you engage a Mindshackle Lord. This alternate suggestion is jut that: an alternative when that won't work.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> Well, somebody can only accept a challenge if they're engaged in the combat--if they're more than 5" away from their nearest model in B2B (so after their 3" pile-in, are still out of 2") they're not in a place where they can accept a challenge at the beginning of the phase anyways (and CSM, at least, always have to challenge). So good for you if you can arrange that, but you can't rely on rolling up the flank of a 20-Warrior blob or something every single time you engage a Mindshackle Lord. This alternate suggestion is jut that: an alternative when that won't work.


Fair enough, although I don't think it's quite as far as 5" - Pile-Ins are not done at the start of the Fight sub-phase - they are done at Initiative Step and at the end of the Fight sub-phase, but if I've missed Defenders React! then by all means, burst my bubble :victory:


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> but if I've missed Defenders React! then by all means, burst my bubble


Not bursting it....I can't even find it! I swear I remember this rule existing but I can't find it in the book. 

Any help?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

ntaw said:


> Not bursting it....I can't even find it! I swear I remember this rule existing but I can't find it in the book.
> 
> Any help?


I know it existed in 5th, but I've been developing tactics around the fact that's it's not in 6th...


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Ha! Must have been a relic of knowledge from 5th.

Crazy that was what stuck.


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## maximus2467 (Jun 14, 2007)

Falcoso, how do you get them to use their mind shackle scarabs before challenges are made?


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

maximus2467 said:


> Falcoso, how do you get them to use their mind shackle scarabs before challenges are made?


Pretty sure when two things are supposed to happen at the same time in a phase on both sides of the table the player whose turn it is gets to choose the order in which they happen. In this instance MSS and Challenges both happen at the start of the Assault Phase, so if I were facing a Necron opponent I would definitely choose to make him use MSS before I get into a Challenge with him. 

....however, that might have come from my knowledge of 6th edition. Pretty sure it's the same in 7th, but I'd have to check the Necron FAQ and BRB section on Challenges to be 100%.

EDIT: pg. 27 7th edition BRB, under Sequencing:



> ...you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are resolved at the same time...when this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, the player whose turn it is chooses the order.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Just to throw in that it's a lot harder to deny someone the use of Mindshackle Scarabs now, as the bearer can accept a challenge even if he's not engaged in combat, therefore 'leapfrogging' straight into combat with the challenger even if he wouldn't normally be allowed to strike. If that happened I suppose you wouldn't challenge as he can't strike, but the Necron player could very easily challenge you to either stop your character attacking or to jump his character into combat.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> Just to throw in that it's a lot harder to deny someone the use of Mindshackle Scarabs now


It's hard for me to write this from both perspectives clearly, so for the sake of simplicity this specific situation from both angles:

If it's the Necron player's Turn, challenging first and getting into base contact before utilizing MSS is key.

If it's the Opposing player's Turn, they have the option of forcing the Necron player to use their MSS before either side gets to Challenge, regardless of if the Necron player wants to Challenge or not.

You could leapfrog to the front of a combat with Challenges in 6th, there was no prerequisite for base contact only that the challenger/ee must be moved into contact for the duration and that the challenge was a separate event from the rest of combat with wounds counting toward combat results. Forgive me if I'm being obtuse, I don't see any change to this aspect of the game from 6th to 7th.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

ntaw said:


> It's hard for me to write this from both perspectives clearly, so for the sake of simplicity this specific situation from both angles:
> 
> If it's the Necron player's Turn, challenging first and getting into base contact before utilizing MSS is key.
> 
> ...


No - in 6th edition, you could only issue, accept or refuse a challenge if you were engaged - i.e. within 2" of a model in base contact. In 7th, you can issue or answer a challenge even if you're not engaged.

EDIT: Damn, I think I've been doing it wrong, let me just lay this out for myself:

So, the Necron player chooses to challenge first, and then use MSS once he's in the challenge. If it's the other player's turn, he forces the Overlord to use his MSS, then accept the challenge. If the Overlord isn't in base to base contact with anyone then accepts the challenge, the MSS are wasted as there were no models in base contact when their activation (the start of the Fight sub-phase) came around.

In short; if the Necron player challenges, he gets to use MSS in the first round of combat. If your opponent is the one who issues the challenge, you don't get to use them in the first round of combat. The exception is if the Necron model with MSS was already in base contact with a model - in this case, the challenging player can force the Necron player to use his Mindshackle Scarabs on the model he's in base contact with, _then_ move to enter the challenge.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> So, the Necron player chooses to challenge first, and then use MSS once he's in the challenge. If it's the other player's turn, he forces the Overlord to use his MSS, then accept the challenge. If the Overlord isn't in base to base contact with anyone then accepts the challenge, the MSS are wasted as there were no models in base contact when their activation (the start of the Fight sub-phase) came around.
> .


This basically.

But then comes the argument, its still the start of the fight sub-phase when a challeng is made. So i an overlord isn't in the combat when he is forced to use MSS, is it used at all? So if then he accepts the challenge does he then use MSS as now there is a target and it is still the start of the FIght Sub-phase?


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## maximus2467 (Jun 14, 2007)

I think that's reading too far into this, as previously stated the player who's turn it is decides in which order simultaneous actions are carried out. 

Soooo, I assault the necron squad, ensuring my crappiest model is on btb with necron lord, request he uses mss, private bloggs fails his ld and twats himself with his bolter later on in the combat phase when blows are struck but survives due to it not being a power weapon attack, But after mss test is made I declare a challenge with Logan grimnar and bitch slap said necron lord crying all the way home to his momma

Is this correct?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

maximus2467 said:


> I think that's reading too far into this, as previously stated the player who's turn it is decides in which order simultaneous actions are carried out.
> 
> Soooo, I assault the necron squad, ensuring my crappiest model is on btb with necron lord, request he uses mss, private bloggs fails his ld and twats himself with his bolter later on in the combat phase when blows are struck but survives due to it not being a power weapon attack, But after mss test is made I declare a challenge with Logan grimnar and bitch slap said necron lord crying all the way home to his momma
> 
> Is this correct?


Yup.


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## maximus2467 (Jun 14, 2007)

Coolio


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

falcoso said:


> But then comes the argument, its still the start of the fight sub-phase when a challeng is made.


Challenges and MSS both take place 'at the beginning of the Fight sub-phase before blows are struck' (pg. 101 BRB, Necron FAQ pg 3), leading to the _Sequencing_ quote I tossed out last page.

Sounds like we got ourselves a consensus here about Challenges and MSS. I like it :drinks:


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

ntaw said:


> Challenges and MSS both take place 'at the beginning of the Fight sub-phase before blows are struck' (pg. 101 BRB, Necron FAQ pg 3), leading to the _Sequencing_ quote I tossed out last page.
> 
> Sounds like we got ourselves a consensus here about Challenges and MSS. I like it :drinks:


And the target of the MSS is a random enemy model in B2B. If the Overlord isn't in B2B can the enemy force MSS before the challenge? As there is no valid target for MSS, the Overlord will then move and use it on the guy in the challenge, no blows have been struck yet so it is still during the period when MSS can be activated


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

falcoso said:


> And the target of the MSS is a random enemy model in B2B. If the Overlord isn't in B2B can the enemy force MSS before the challenge? As there is no valid target for MSS, the Overlord will then move and use it on the guy in the challenge, no blows have been struck yet so it is still during the period when MSS can be activated


No. You can't 'store' their usage and then activate them whenever you like. You *must* use them at the start of the Fight phase, whether he's in base contact or not.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

^ that response.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

But its still that start of the fight sub-phase even after a challenge is made, its not storing it up, otherwise the MSS must always be done first. As @ntaw said, both challenges and MSS are at the start of the Fight SUb-phase before blows are struck, blows haven't been struck when the Overlord moves into the challenge but now has a valid target.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

falcoso said:


> As @ntaw said, both challenges and MSS are at the start of the Fight SUb-phase before blows are struck, blows haven't been struck when the Overlord moves into the challenge but now has a valid target.


As I (and the BRB) also said, since both things happen at the same time:



ntaw said:


> pg. 27 7th edition BRB, under Sequencing:
> 
> Quote:
> ...you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are resolved at the same time...when this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, the player whose turn it is chooses the order.


Blows haven't been struck for either thing to happen: they happen in unison. Since things can't happen in specific unison in the game (because it's turn based, among other reasons) the player whose turn it is gets to decide which happens first in real time. Every now and then you're going to lose the ability to mind-fuck people into violence upon themselves and their cohorts, good thing the upgrade is only 15 points. I play Necrons and I am not upset by this, it's almost the same as before anyway. The only difference, as Midnight pointed out, is that you no longer need to be 'in combat' to accept a Challenge.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Whoever has the player turn decides the order of two activations: issuing/accepting Challenges, and activating Mindshackle Scarabs. If it's your turn, you choose to issue/accept challenges, then use Mindshackle. If it's his turn, he chooses that Mindshackle Scarabs go first, then issuing challenges. As soon as he declares a challenge, you've missed the activation for Mindshackle Scarabs. You can't use MSS in the movement phase, you can't use them in the shooting phase, you can't use them at the end of the assault phase after your pile-in move - you have a short window of opportunity to use them. Your opponent has a small measure of control over where that window falls.

It works exactly the same way for other things going at the same time. For example - you fight Logan Grimnar. I can't remember the exact wording, but let's say for argument's sake that the Axe Morkai has the following phrasing:

"...The Axe of Morkai may be used as a Frost Blade or, if Logan wields it with both hands, a power fist. Logan may allocate his Attacks as he sees fit between these two modes; for example, taking two of his Attacks as power fist attacks and the rest as Frost Blade attacks. Declare at the beginning of the Fight sub-phase which attacks are using which profile."

It's your turn, and you want to challenge him because Logan's a nasty beasty. However, let's say you're with a unit of Wraiths - Frost Blade attacks will just bounce off you, but a Power Fist could instakill you and that'd suck. So, you force him to declare which attack mode he uses; and if he says he'll swing as a Power Fist, you challenge with your Lord, because that'll stop him killing your Wraiths and potentially instakill himself with his Power Fist. If he chooses his Frost Blade, you can then choose not to challenge, and the attacks will bounce harmlessly off your Phase Shifters. He can't wait until you've made a challenge or not before deciding which weapon mode he'll use - yes, technically he chooses at the same time you issue the challenge, but since it's your turn, you decide the order in which simultaneous things happen.

Do you understand that needlessly complex example? Yes, I know, it's not strictly true in gaming terms (the Axe Morkai doesn't have that exact wording, and it's stated the Mindshackle Scarabs can choose what weapon your opponent uses anyway, but this is just an illustration, okay?)

EDIT: And just because it's you, and I know you'll bring it up to be awkward; simultaneous activations are _not_ the same thing as set value modifiers. So don't bring Whip Coils versus initiative bonuses into this, they follow a completely different set of rules.


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