# How do other 40k fans view "optimists" fans like myself?



## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

By "Optimists," We often believe (or at least find appealing) at least a few the following:

In our own minds, the "good guys" can somehow win
Emperor WILL be revived.
The Tau, Imperium, and Eldar should form an alliance against the forces of evil.
The Emperor will form that alliance.
A final, good vs evil type of war happens. (Sort of like the Eldar Prophecy, except it doesn't require for everyone to die.)

You get the idea. I am not the only one who is like this. I have all of those traits, however. Perhaps I am very radical even among this group, but still. 

How do other fluff fans view people like me? As ignorant fools? As people with a different opinion? As naieve but still "cute" idealists?

*UPDATE:* I realized that I was a bit liberal in my use of the word "optimist." See post #56 for clarification. It basically states my ideal endgame.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

The first two I agree with. And even the Eldar I am willing to team up with. 

But I hate the Tau beyond all reason! KILL EM ALL! 

So no you're not that Radical.

I've always had the attitude that the "Yer all gonna DDIIIEEE!" attitude is a waste of the storytelling potential of the setting.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I view all 40K fluff optimists as deluded at best, ignorantly arrogant at worst.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

I personally see the Emperor coming back as an interesting turn of events, and believe the Tau, Eldar, and Imperium would benefit immensely from an alliance, but don't see either event happening.

You're entitled to your own interpretation of the material. 40K, more than most fiction, is meant to be open to interpretation. But I think optimists are ignoring central themes in order to make their own views work for them. 40K is a grim dark sci-fi setting first and foremost. Whether you believe in objective or subjective morality, virtually no one could be identified as good by any modern human being's standards of good and evil. There are at least half a dozen events that are on the verge of occuring that will send mankind and most of the galaxy spiraling into its inevitable destruction. It's not a happy place. If you want to think it is, or will become one, that's cool, though you have to ignore quite a lot to think like that, in my opinion.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> I view all 40K fluff optimists as deluded at best, ignorantly arrogant at worst.


:shok:....... wow


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> I view all 40K fluff optimists as deluded at best, ignorantly arrogant at worst.


That's not nice. There is enough room for all the camps to co-exist. (Well, except the ones that involve internet memes somehow getting involved. You get the idea.)


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## Tbirch (Mar 13, 2010)

I'm a life long pessimist in real life, but I still believe in some shimmer of hope in the WH40k 'verse.


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## Snowy (Jul 11, 2009)

I'm usually an optimist, but, I'm a Marine player and the only reason I play Marines (Apart from the fact that they Pwn.) Is because while the Imperium crumbles around them the Space Marines will fight till the very last, taking the enemy with them. They are the light and hope of the Imperium, a race lost in the darkness.

The Imperium, no matter what some people say, will eventually die out, from one thing to another. I have no opinion on what will happen when the Emperor is killed, apart from the massive Psychic backlash that will probably kill all weak Pyskers on Terra, as well as completely wrecking the Astropathic Choir. Though if an alliance was made between the Eldar and the Imperium, the Eldar may find a way to fix the Golden Throne through reading the Emperors mind?

The Eldar, well I wouldn't mind seeing a Farseer in Power Armour. and because human's are becoming increasingly psychic race, the Eldar could teach them how to control it and harness it. As well the Eldar might be able to help reconstruct the Imperial Webway, releasing some strain from the Emperor

The Tau, I hate 'em, let the Eldar/Imperium destroy the upstart race.


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## ClassyRaptor (Apr 7, 2010)

Eldar would never join the Humans, because in short, we destroyed the galaxy. We CANNOT WIN, as explained in the novel Legion the human race will be destroyed in around another 10m and Chaos will flow directly into the material realm along with the gods. Even with the Emperor we cannot win. Even with all the Primarch and the Emperor we cannot win. We doomed the galaxy and there is no way to reverse it.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Vali ThunderAxe said:


> Eldar would never join the Humans, because in short, we destroyed the galaxy. We CANNOT WIN, as explained in the novel Legion the human race will be destroyed in around another 10m and Chaos will flow directly into the material realm along with the gods. Even with the Emperor we cannot win. Even with all the Primarch and the Emperor we cannot win. We doomed the galaxy and there is no way to reverse it.


Why do you trust the Cabal so much?


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## murdock129 (Apr 3, 2008)

Honestly your overly hopeful, none of what you said will happen. And even if itdid they wouldn't win. The Chaos Gods would still exist and can't be destroyed. The Orks and Tyranids are simply too unkillable. The Necrons are pretty much impossible to kill, the Emperor and humanity are too Xenophobic to work with the Tau and Eldar for a long time


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

If you mean optimism as in the imperium has a possible chance of sticking it out to the end, then no, I do not object to that point of view.

If you mean everyone is holding hands and singing songs of happiness, destroying the idea of grimdark, then thats plane stupid.


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## Bakunin (Mar 27, 2010)

Platypus5 said:


> By "Optimists," We often believe (or at least find appealing) at least a few the following:
> 
> In our own minds, the "good guys" somehow win
> Emperor WILL be revived.
> ...


I personally think that 'optimists' are idealists and aren't really looking at what the setting represents. 40K is meant to be a dark future where the human race lives in anightmare distopia which is collapsing. The consequences of events 10,000 years ago still enslave man and prevent them from moveing forward. As a result, as the Imperium collapses there is only war and this war is unwinnable and at best delying the inevitable, at worst contributing to mankinds destruction.

But it makes a great setting for a great set of games. 

But even in such dark fluff, there is room for optimists like you. Some armys reflect your outlook. In Inquisitor there was factions who felt everything was OK with the Imperium and things were slowly moveing along the Emperors plan that would result in a better galaxy. Your outlook can be used to theme armys and make interesting scenarios. So please be optimistic, even if it will lead to disapointment :grin:

But in answer to your 'optimistic' outlook:

The good guys can't win because there are no good guys. The Imperium is a nightmare society, where the majoritys lifes are only valued by what they can produce and have the constant fear of violence and are ruled over by religious nutters. Eldar society is so strict that it stamps out all individuality, with anyone disagreeing with this way of life being banished. The nearest hope is the Tau, yet even their society rejects individuals in favour of a strict caste system ruled by an unanswerable elite.

If the Emperor was revived it would result in civil war between the those who believed he was the the revived Emperor and those who didn't. Inquisitor put the idea that the body on the Golden throne is a corpse. When the Emperor walked, the man was basically an avatar for the god emperors spirit. When he died, the spirit should of found another outlet. Instead, the Golden throne tied it to the corpse that sits there. Some in the inquisition seek a new avatar for the Emperor and some oppose this because it would split the Imperium. Either way, the thing on the golden throne is beyond reviving and nay other form of returning the Emperor would lead to chaos. The Imperium has degenerated too much to be saved by a second comeing.

The Tau, Eldar and Imperium all have seperate agendas. They might form temporary alliances but would never form a permanent alliance. The Eldar are not even a united race. If the 3 did unite and wipe out all enemys, then the first thing the massive Imperium (with its current ruling philosophy) would do is turn on its 2 much smaller allies and wipe them out.

I've already covered the Emperor not comeing back so he won't be forming any alliances with the Tau and Eldar. 

The final Ragnorak style battle scenario is unlikely, firstly because all the players are evil. If they had no enemys they would still fight amongst themselves. The winner would still have more reasons to fight afterwards.

But the one potential hope scenario, is the comeing collapse of the Imperium caused by the failure of the golden throne, results in the human race finally finding independence free from oppresion and faceing a dangerous galaxy through working together, rather than with the 40K vision of being paralyzed by superstition and religious dogma. The failure of the golden throne and the abandonment of the corpse on it leads to the rebirth of science :grin:


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

I'm an 'optimist', I suppose. I do think the Emperor will be revived. I do _hope_ that humanity will be victorious. I just think that the war won't actually ever stop. Does anyone really? I do think the storyline will move forward, I just think that the main part will stay the same, and only the fluff will change. Such as a huge war with the Tyranids that completely deplete Imperial Forces. Perhaps the Tau will discover FTL travel and a explosive expansion. Perhaps even a Necron Invasion.

I guess I'm not entirely the same kind of optimist. In my eyes, the greatest thing they could ever do is keep 40k going for all of eternity.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Tau already have FTL.


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Tau already have FTL.


You're right, sorry. I meant Faster then what they have now, which isn't that fast compared to other races.


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## ClassyRaptor (Apr 7, 2010)

Coder59 said:


> Why do you trust the Cabal so much?


Because it mainly makes sense, and they hae been right many, many times before.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Except for the heresy. Did they not predict that if the Alpha legion sided with the warmaster the imperium would fall and Horus would destroy mankind and the chaos gods along with it?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I'm an even greater optimist. 

I believe the Imperium of Man will overcome all obstacles. By itself. Everyone is pretty much looking out for themselves, anyway.

The very idea that the Eldar would stoop to helping mankind is akin to humanity uniting to make the world a better place for us and ants.

And IF mankind triumphs, it won't be because of Chapter Masters or the technosorcey of the AdMech, it'll be because of the toil of the blood and sweat of the lowliest of hivers and the untold billions of Imperial Guardsman.


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## Boganius Maximal (Oct 31, 2009)

I think you are very optimistic. I dont believe in destiny or any of that crap so I think at best the Imperium will keep bumbling along in its blind ignorant sort of way until maybe the Emperor or some of the missing loyalist Primarchs return/recover from their wounds, in which case the Imperium may be directed back onto the right track and truely conquer the Galaxy. 

But ultimately in the grim dark future there is only war and Mankind will eventually in its typical ineffective, drawn out way will slowly fornicate itself into extinction


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

hailene said:


> I'm an even greater optimist.
> 
> I believe the Imperium of Man will overcome all obstacles. By itself. Everyone is pretty much looking out for themselves, anyway.
> 
> ...


You are wise. Guardsman FTW!!!!:grin:


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Guardsmen will most likely be the number one reason why the imperium has a chance to make it out in the end... unless they call for Team America! then the imperium will prosper and all enemies will be destroyed.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

A happy ending can also be Tau victory.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I'm wondering how Tau would deal with possessed (IE daemon) humans and Chaos humans in general. Plus a real Tyranid hive fleet. I imagine their Greater Good will put them between a rock and a hard place.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

hailene said:


> I'm wondering how Tau would deal with possessed (IE daemon) humans and Chaos humans in general. Plus a real Tyranid hive fleet. I imagine their Greater Good will put them between a rock and a hard place.


I really don't think the greater good is as restrictive or naive as some people think. All it's really saying is that everyone has talents which they must contribute en masse to cover for the weakness of the individual, thereby promoting the greater good, or what is best for everyone. This is very similar to what the Imperium believes in, only their system is seemingly more corrupt and far less friendly toward xenos. The greater good is the one thing keeping the tau in the running at all. Without it they'd just be another alien species wiped out by humanity upon their discovery.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Let me give you a scenario:

Let's say there's a widespread genestealer infestation. And there's an iminent hive fleet incoming to the planet. What do we do?

Imperium: Fight and then purge the planet. If not, purge the planet before they get there.

Tau: Abandon the planet. Fighting on compromised ground is foolish.

What happens to the 10s of millions of people on the planet? Evacuate? No way.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

That`s half the reason the tyranids are pwning everyone else!

imo, hope only leads to disappointment.
Ambition only leads to failure.

Optimists are like flowers, yes they`re a pleasant distraction, but they don`t change anything. That Necron Lord isn`t gonna say "I admire your moxy" and let you live. He`ll just step on the pretty flower and grind it into the ground...

Optimism is futile. Hope does not exist.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> imo, hope only leads to disappointment.
> Ambition only leads to failure.


Ah.... Well that's a productive outlook. Lol



Serpion5 said:


> Optimism is futile. Hope does not exist.


They make pills for statements like this. :laugh: jk jk jk no offence meant. But really, it is the optimists that keep the world moving. Lol if there is absolutly no hope then there is absolutly no reason to continue. Lol


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I`m not saying optimists don`t have reasons (or uses).

After all, someone has to keep fighting the forces of despair.

Kudos to all you optimists and fairylovers out there.

But you`re still gonna die a horrible lonely death. Hehehehehe...


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## Lither (Apr 2, 2010)

I view fluff optimists as very hopeful. The Dark Eldar will cover the galaxy in an enless tide of darkness, killing and enslaving all the lesser races. That's optimism!  

Seriously, it is somewhat possible in fluff, but not in that great an optimistic outlook. The Illuminati gather the Sensei and when the Emperor finally falls, they sacrifice them en masse and hope to rebirthe the Emperor. The Eldar believe when the last of them falls it will create a new god powerful enough to slay all the Chaos ones.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

DE on top is not optimisim. It`s delusional.
At least the mankind has an honest (though very faint) possibility of maybe surviving another milennium or two.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> But you`re still gonna die a horrible lonely death. Hehehehehe...


 I won't die lonely. I will pulled into hell feet first laughing my head off dragging as many of the emperors enemies with me as I go. Lol See, I even have my happy ending. Lol


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

I also would love to see the Imperium triumph alone... and enter a new era of prosperity in which technology and social change may flourish after Chaos is finally defeated. Of course that is terribly unlikely... so I will go with the Romantic Last Stand Option for Humanity being just as much fun as my choice of outcome.

I think a Battle of Terra Campaign would bring thousands of interested players old and new alike to the 40k universe. 

I think most of us, would like to see the Emperor revive even for a short period. Even a 100 days of him operating would certainly change the galaxy again. Or even a single day perhaps....

Humanity will survive somewhere, somehow. It may not be the Imperium, it might not be an Empire, but it will survive.

As for what GW do.... simple same thing they have for 20 odd years. Stagnate... on the brink.... our favorite setting.


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## ClassyRaptor (Apr 7, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Except for the heresy. Did they not predict that if the Alpha legion sided with the warmaster the imperium would fall and Horus would destroy mankind and the chaos gods along with it?


There was two ways the Heresy would go, and they predicted right both ways. If Horus and the Traitors won and the Emperor was killed ect ect, then it would last a few m and then they would all killthemselves along with the human race. And if Horus Lost (Which he did) then man kind would have 10-20m until the Chaos gods built up enough power to release themselves physically and destroy the Human race.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

K3k3000 said:


> But I think optimists are ignoring central themes in order to make their own views work for them.


This is the view I take. GW intended for the 40k Background to be grimdark and hopeless, that is the point. Optimists I find, generally ignore the central themes to the backstory and ignore the obvious points which will ensure the Imperium's doom.

And always remember that Hope is the first step of the road to disappointment.



gen.ahab said:


> Except for the heresy. Did they not predict that if the Alpha legion sided with the warmaster the imperium would fall and Horus would destroy mankind and the chaos gods along with it?


Actually the Cabal didn't predict that at all. They predicted two ultimate outcomes for the Galaxy, one brought about by Horus' victory and the other brought about by the Emperor's victory. They just studied the Primarchs and Astartes Legions and came to the conclusion that Alpharius Omegon and the Alpha Legion bore the least mutated Geneseed and were best placed to ensure that they brought about a favourable outcome for the Galaxy (brought about by Horus' victory). They didn't actually predict that if the Alpha Legion joined the Heresy, Horus would triumph - They just realised that the Alpha Legion was the best placed Legion to bring about their preferred outcome.



Lither said:


> The Eldar believe when the last of them falls it will create a new god powerful enough to slay all the Chaos ones.


No, the Eldar do not believe that. Firstly its only a handful of Eldar seers that actually see Ynnead as a possibility. And they (not the entire Eldar race) believe its plausable that this Ynnead would be able to defeat Slaanesh (Not all the Chaos Gods). Although we know better, we know that Slaanesh cannot be defeated. But one thing that may actually be realistically possible would be Ynnead somehow severing the bond between Eldar and Slaanesh, and even that is being optimistic.


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

I'm with you in optimism but I settle for much less. Humanity will prevail and survive even among scum and villany that persists in the galaxy and will eventually overcome the Necrons and Nids. Chaos always is and always will be and so will the imperium to battle it back, though once humanity becomes a fully psychic race like the Eldar it'll be interesting to see how it would play out. 

Though honestly, I'd just be happy if the Lion would wake up and lead his angels once more. Naptime must be nice.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Really this thread kind of leads to assholeism. We all play different armies and we all want them to "Win." Personally I'll take a heroic last stand or Imperial victory because that's the army I play and enjoy. 

This kinda thing just leads to pointless fights and speculating. Our arguments can go around and around and we're not going to convince each other except on the gaming table.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Platypus5 said:


> That's not nice. There is enough room for all the camps to co-exist. (Well, except the ones that involve internet memes somehow getting involved. You get the idea.)


You asked for my opinion, I gave it- don't get hissy if you don't like it.


@gen.ahab- Tau don't have FTL, only the Necrons do.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> You asked for my opinion, I gave it- don't get hissy if you don't like it.
> 
> 
> @gen.ahab- Tau don't have FTL, only the Necrons do.


They have warp travel. They make brief dives into the warp to travel... That's FTL. May not be an FTL engine the literaly shoots them across space but it is still FTL.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

hailene said:


> Let me give you a scenario:
> 
> Let's say there's a widespread genestealer infestation. And there's an iminent hive fleet incoming to the planet. What do we do?
> 
> ...


That doesn't sound like the greater good to me. That just sounds like a tau war strategy that the tau might use the greater good to justify, but it doesn't explicitly employ the greater good.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> They have warp travel. They make brief dives into the warp to travel... That's FTL. May not be an FTL engine the literaly shoots them across space but it is still FTL.


It's not an FTL drive, as you stated they move through the warp in small jumps- they're literally traversing through a different dimension, it doesn't matter how fast their real space engines are for the most part. But the idea of a FTL drive is that you rocket across real space at velocities greater than light.


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## warsmith7752 (Sep 12, 2009)

I wonder what would happen if the imperium did fall in about 10m then all the humans get isolated yadda yadda yadda then a lone figuire starts up a new imperium and creates new warrioirs even stronger than marines that are immune from taint and then they would use marines like they use the gaurd. Now who stands a chance against that???? (exept gods)


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I know what an FTL drive is. I never said they had one. Just that they get from point A to point B faster than light. Therefore they have FTL travel but not an FTL Drive.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I apologise, I misread.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Im just going to put it out this way: I see two types of optimists here, the implausable and plausable.

Implausable is basicly eveyone claiming that the imperium will win and everyone will be fine... which cannot happen otherwise GW will lose money and goes against all of the grimdark.

Plausable optimism is basicly "we have a chance of stopping ________" I did not state that you will win, but you have a possibility to win.

Remember: hope is the first step on the road of dissapointment.... or a really awesome coincidence.


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## Sanguine Rain (Feb 12, 2010)

Well, in real life, i am an optimist, but in the grimdark world of 40k, not so much. Personally I hope the imperium crumbles, the only human factions (well, maybe semi-human) are the Astartes, and the Admech, which i believe (not all of the SMs but...) could survive on their own. Personally, the current imperium imo, is an ignorant one, in which a false god plays such a huge role, believe me, i absolutely HATE the Lectio Divinitatus with a passion! Especially after Keeler in the heresy series was claimed to be a freaking saint, when she was just a damn psyker (oh yeah, and speaking of psykers, i fuckin despise the inquisition!!! tack on another reason against the imperium)! Anyways, after that somewhat unrelated tangent, i respect optimism, just am not very fond of it (at least, in 40k )


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

I keep reading this discussion as 'for the loss' drives. Didn't think Tau failed that much that they needed ftl drives 

Agreed with above comment, the Titan legions aren't going anywhere anytime soon. I think that a more realistic survivability for the non adeptus aspect of humanity, assuming the death of the emperor and a great schism and isolation, lies with becoming apart of the Tau Empire and giving them the tech while being fully integrated means they won't be trying to wipe us off the map as much as keeping us close to them and using a reformed society for troops and using our technology and inadvertently protecting the remnants of humanity from the other badies out there.


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

Lucio said:


> I keep reading this discussion as 'for the loss' drives. Didn't think Tau failed that much that they needed ftl drives
> 
> Agreed with above comment, the Titan legions aren't going anywhere anytime soon. I think that a more realistic survivability for the non adeptus aspect of humanity, assuming the death of the emperor and a great schism and isolation, lies with becoming apart of the Tau Empire and giving them the tech while being fully integrated means they won't be trying to wipe us off the map as much as keeping us close to them and using a reformed society for troops and using our technology and inadvertently protecting the remnants of humanity from the other badies out there.


Just so you know, the Tau Empire will probably go before the Imperium since they are in the path of the huge Tyranid Hive Fleet. So ya, not much hope there...

Where's all this thought that the Space Marines and the Admech are the only ones who will survive? Space Marines defend the realm, so if the realm goes, it's probably because all the space marines and titan legions were destroyed.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

CommissarGhost said:


> Just so you know, the Tau Empire will probably go before the Imperium since they are in the path of the huge Tyranid Hive Fleet. So ya, not much hope there...


Not necessarily. Two of the three main hive fleets attacked the eastern fringe, but the last fleet, Leviathan, attacked up through the galactic plane, within 15,000 lightyears of Terra. This raises two prevailing points: A) The tyranid can strike from anywhere, and B) if Terra was destroyed by the tyranid, chances are the Imperium would go down with it one way or another.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

K3k3000 said:


> Not necessarily. Two of the three main hive fleets attacked the eastern fringe, but the last fleet, Leviathan, attacked up through the galactic plane, within 15,000 lightyears of Terra. This raises two prevailing points: A) The tyranid can strike from anywhere, and B) if Terra was destroyed by the tyranid, chances are the Imperium would go down with it one way or another.


Not particularly. The Imperium is huge. Too huge to be properly managed from a central point. By the time information gets to Terra it can be decades or centuries old.

Many sectors could be said to be mini-empires in of themselves. I can't imagine the actual fact of Terra being destroyed ruining the Imperium. The idea that the Emperor getting man-handled notwithstanding.

Also the Astronomican.


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## Belthazor Aurellius (Jan 16, 2009)

Wow. A lot of replies. I can't read all of them right now, but I'll give my first impressions to the original post by quoting the Librarian from "Dawn of War" who I'm sure is quoting some Inquisitor...

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."

There. I probably summed up the Grim Dark mood right there...

However, here's something I've noticed. In the core rulebook (The big one. Not the IG Primer sized one), the fluff pages mention a time in the future where man's courage will be tested to the limit, and other similar foreboding but not altogether hopeless statements. The race of man is on the verge of evolving into a psychic race. The mutation of the mind is becoming more prevalent, but it's also becoming more useful to Man. While there's dangers, there's also the possibility this evolution will be a strength to Man against the Warp (and against the Necrons, who cannot stand the Warp).

To add to this, old fluff says that a) the Emperor is descended of a council of shamans/spirit guids for Man who sacrificed themselves to become a single immortal super-psychic man at a time that the warp was just beginning to become turbulent with the fetal forms of the chaos gods. (8000B.C. roughly). b) the Emperor's soul is still strong, though held by the Golden Throne to his corporeal body. The Golden Throne both ensures man's ability to travel the Warp, and prevents the Emperor from re-incarnating, as he would have to be severed completely before he could find a suitable mother/planet/situation. and 3) the Emperor would have to do battle in the warp with the Chaos Gods themselves before he could return. Which explains why his soul's been attached to a psyker-funnel. The Golden Throne basically feeds the Emperor's soul more souls, much the way Chaos gods are fed, and grew in power...

Before I get too sidetracked: I cannot see a way for the Emperor to re-incarnate himself without a civil war. He would have to find a suitable world, find a suitable mother within that world, and show himself at just the right time to make for a conquest of the Imperium. To do that, he would have to fight the Chaos Gods long enough to make their subbordinates weaker, calm warp storms and somehow return as strong as ever, and then fight a third of the Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition and Space Marines who have turned heretical, or who refuse to believe he is the reborn Imperator.

So, you can be optimistic, say the Emperor's coming back. I'd agree it looks that way, but it won't be peaches and cream all of a sudden. The Emperor's return will just be another exciting twist in the grim dark future of mankind, where there is only war and to be a man in such times is to be one of untold billions....


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

That raises the question that would anyone immediately know him? The primarchs knew him instinctually and it would be quite convenient if Lion El'Jonson woke up at this time and recognized the Emperor just as he had on Caliban. Idk if there are any other loyal primarchs left alive but they might recognize him instinctively as well.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

hailene said:


> Not particularly. The Imperium is huge. Too huge to be properly managed from a central point. By the time information gets to Terra it can be decades or centuries old.
> 
> Many sectors could be said to be mini-empires in of themselves. I can't imagine the actual fact of Terra being destroyed ruining the Imperium. The idea that the Emperor getting man-handled notwithstanding.
> 
> Also the Astronomican.


While that is true to an extent, if Terra and the Emperor are destroyed the Imperium as well as the Galaxy becomes drowned in Chaos automatically, and becomes essentially covered entirely by a Warp Rift. _Codex: Imperialis_ and _Codex: Chaos Daemons_ are fairly clear on this.

And thats aside from that fact that without the Emperor the Astronomican goes and the Imperial Webway bursts open flooding Sol in Daemons.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

hailene said:


> Not particularly. The Imperium is huge. Too huge to be properly managed from a central point. By the time information gets to Terra it can be decades or centuries old.
> 
> Many sectors could be said to be mini-empires in of themselves. I can't imagine the actual fact of Terra being destroyed ruining the Imperium. The idea that the Emperor getting man-handled notwithstanding.
> 
> Also the Astronomican.


The Imperium wouldn't be doomed if it lost Terra's governing, they'd be doomed if they lost the Emperor. No Emperor, no Astronomican. No Astronomican, no non-suicidal warp travel. No non-suicidal warp travel, no Imperium .

I don't know how fast Imperium space ships can go outside the warp, but assuming it's sub light speed the Imperium would never survive without warp travel.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Well, the fact that rogue traders go past the Halo zone and into the eastern fringe means that it is possible to travel the warp without the Empy.

Lord Solar Mach also wanted to go beyond as well. 

Plus humans have been traveling the warp since M18. Well before the Astronomican.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Well, it occured to me that I was a bit liberal in my use of the word "optimist." What I really meant was that the galaxy would become more good vs. evil.

To clarify, here is my "ideal" endgame scenario. Unlikely? Yes. Fully accurate fluff-wise? Not yet. Ultimate? I think so.

The Emperor is revived in his corporeal form, causing the Star Child to flow back into him. During this, a wave of compassion is filtered through his intolerent nature and turned into reason. This is enough for him to realize that the Tau (by now in their 9th sphere) and Eldar are not the true enemeis, but the forces of disorder are. Thus, he reaches out to the two races. At first, the Tau and Eldar were suspicious at first, but in the wake of the stirring of the C'Tan, the rise of Abbadon, and comming of the Tyranids, the three form a slightly grudging alliance. The Emperor, the Pheonix Lords, and Aun'va announce to their people the news. For now at least, Tau, Eldar and Imperium hostilities have ceased in the face of the greater enemies.

Meanwhile, the Outsider breaks out of his dyson sphere, bringing his insanity to the galaxy. The Orks, thankfully, are tied up in combat with the Tyranids, but are slowly losing. The necrons are rising up once again. The Void Dragon is increasingly hard to contain.

The stage is set for final battle.....Perhaps the Tau Eldar Imperium Alliance can triumph....perhaps they won't....or perhaps the wars shall just go on...


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## Tzarii (Apr 10, 2010)

First and foremost I would like to comment that I wish my grass was as morose dark and pessimistic as people in the fluff threads so it would cut itself. I IRL am cursed with something called depression, that being said, thanks to my ambition and my struggling with my outlook I have been able to scrap out fight the good fight against all odds (even survive being struck down by lightning, I guess zeus was pissed at me) and some how my outlook do to the fact that I did not give up and I struggled onward, and I am doing all right. So to most pessimists I give a nod and to most optimist I give a nod, as I am first and foremost a pragmatist...

*Fluff however,* my opinions are different, mainly because I have not read nearly as much as probably . First off my job IRL is similar to an eldar farseer, kinda only without the cool psyker stuff. So it's my job to predict and look down the road a fair distance. While a majority of people here hate optimists and wallow in the grim dark and wait in breathless anticipation for what's the next thing to happen with the cabal and debating over what happens next I see something else... Sales figures... 

Writers and novels and fluff are one part of the GW business model, one part, which while awesome and cool, is not as expensive as per say that building block that is the models and game sales. What am I getting at? It would be fiscally irresponsible for GW to come out with "The End." GW while a cool provider of fluff and games and awesomeness is still, a business. In gaming you *DO NOT* change up the format to the point where it confuses annoys and scatters your fanbase (key example raw deal: the wwe card game went a few years strong and beat that scary year number 5 until it decided to "reinvent itself") over expand to the point were your fan base has no clue whats going on OR end the story until it looks like the business is going under. 

GW I think will probably have something invented happen that is brilliant and shocks both pessimists and optimists alike so that it keeps the story going, cause lets face it -- if the story ends in "ZOMG GOOD GUISE WIN! THE ELDAR AND TAU AND MEN LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER IN A GREAT SOCIETY!!!" or " And in a dark symphony of hateful laughter and clattering of they fought in that blackened heart of the galaxy as the C'tan and chaos gods clashed over a mountain of human and tyranid corpses covered in the stains of ork blood as the void loomed over them all the end drawing near." It will piss off enough people that model sales will tank. And that is not a sexy business model. 

I do have some hope though in an form that will piss off optimist anyways. What happens when the Dragon wakes up? 

My two cents...


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tzarii said:


> First and foremost I would like to comment that I wish my grass was as morose dark and pessimistic as people in the fluff threads so it would cut itself. I IRL am cursed with something called depression, that being said, thanks to my ambition and my struggling with my outlook I have been able to scrap out fight the good fight against all odds (even survive being struck down by lightning, I guess zeus was pissed at me) and some how my outlook do to the fact that I did not give up and I struggled onward, and I am doing all right. So to most pessimists I give a nod and to most optimist I give a nod, as I am first and foremost a pragmatist...
> 
> *Fluff however,* my opinions are different, mainly because I have not read nearly as much as probably . First off my job IRL is similar to an eldar farseer, kinda only without the cool psyker stuff. So it's my job to predict and look down the road a fair distance. While a majority of people here hate optimists and wallow in the grim dark and wait in breathless anticipation for what's the next thing to happen with the cabal and debating over what happens next I see something else... Sales figures...
> 
> ...


:goodpost:

And In answer to your final question. I think when the Dragon wakes up the AdMech will split from the Imperium and we're FINALLY going to get them as a seperate army.

And lets face it they would be a fantastic looking force on the tabletop.


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## Sanguine Rain (Feb 12, 2010)

In response to the comment on my comment on the Space Marines and the AdMech (i know, a little late) i agree and thus retract my statement about SMs, but i wasn't saying i think they are the last to be alive, i said that they were the only human factions, or imperium related ones, i genuinely admired...anyways i think once the Admech break off, which i do believe will happen, they will leave the imperium to die, and who knows what will happen next? :biggrin:

Oh, and the idea of an actual playable AdMech army would be awesome on the tabletop!


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

hailene said:


> Well, the fact that rogue traders go past the Halo zone and into the eastern fringe means that it is possible to travel the warp without the Empy.
> 
> Lord Solar Mach also wanted to go beyond as well.
> 
> Plus humans have been traveling the warp since M18. Well before the Astronomican.


Warp travel without the Emperor is possible, though it's considerably more dangerous, probably much more so than it was in M18. The warp hasn't been consistent in its docility. Once upon a time the warp was tepid and easily traversed. Now it's probably suicidal to make a deep jump without a navigator or the astronomicon. Shallow jumps, similar to what the tau accomplish, would likely still be possible, but that would segment the Imperium so much that none of the "mini empires" that'd form would be able to defend themselves.


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## Belthazor Aurellius (Jan 16, 2009)

I don't know about that. The Ultramar Empire is more or less a shallow-jump ranged empire. They've got enough power and mobility to fight off a Tyranid hive tendril of decent proportions. While I'm not saying they killed an entire hive, they've got more muster than most.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Tzarii said:


> First and foremost I would like to comment that I wish my grass was as morose dark and pessimistic as people in the fluff threads so it would cut itself. I IRL am cursed with something called depression, that being said, thanks to my ambition and my struggling with my outlook I have been able to scrap out fight the good fight against all odds (even survive being struck down by lightning, I guess zeus was pissed at me) and some how my outlook do to the fact that I did not give up and I struggled onward, and I am doing all right. So to most pessimists I give a nod and to most optimist I give a nod, as I am first and foremost a pragmatist...
> 
> *Fluff however,* my opinions are different, mainly because I have not read nearly as much as probably . First off my job IRL is similar to an eldar farseer, kinda only without the cool psyker stuff. So it's my job to predict and look down the road a fair distance. While a majority of people here hate optimists and wallow in the grim dark and wait in breathless anticipation for what's the next thing to happen with the cabal and debating over what happens next I see something else... Sales figures...
> 
> ...


While that is true, and comes up a fair amount in these kind of threads - The point is that were not debating whether or not Games Workshop will ever progress the storyline beyond M41 (which they obviously won't because of the reasons you gave), were debating what is viable and likely from a fluff perspective. We can for the most part take Games Workshop completley out of the equation because this topic really has nothing to do with them, were debating from an in-game view point essentially.



Tzarii said:


> I do have some hope though in an form that will piss off optimist anyways. What happens when the Dragon wakes up?


Something very bad for the Imperium  - The Void Dragon being on Mars is also made far worse by the fact that Abaddon the Despoiler is aware it is on Mars.


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## Tzarii (Apr 10, 2010)

Thank you for your enlightenment on the subject with the dragon. Now comes my next diatribe of dribble.

For those of you who don't know there are three eldar gods alive, well sorta, two are kind of alive and one loose still pulling pranks on slaanesh. Cegorach also is the one who may or may not have tricked the C'tan into eating each other, these being the deciever, the outsider and the dragon maybe (please correct me if I am wrong). He is also able to "trick" chaos gods supposedly according to the backgrounds for Solitares. Machinations are sometimes capable of doing ten times the damage of a battle and intrigue can be the deadliest weapon in the hands of those who are capable of using it. If you want to be optimistic here is a guy to root for but I don't think he can do to much fluff wise. I find him a cool albeit under rated character. That being said I don't think he can cause too much of a difference the way the fluff flows... My question is what about the three eldar gods that are still "there" what happens to them?


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## cain the betrayer (Oct 12, 2009)

one is schatter in pieces over the galaxy a other one is a slave to nurgle
and i dont know about the last one


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Tzarii said:


> My question is what about the three eldar gods that are still "there" what happens to them?


Slaanesh fought a titanic duel with Kaela Mensha Khaine in the Warp during the Fall of the Eldar. Slaanesh triumphed but was too exhausted and drained (or just wasn't powerful enough) to completely destroy Khaine, who was instead driven out of the Warp and shattered in hundreds of shards. Or another version of the tale has Khorne and Slaanesh fight over Khaine and in the process Khaine is driven out of the Warp, either or the result is the same.

Isha wasn't destroyed and consumed by Slaanesh like the majority of the other Eldar gods, instead Slaanesh took her captive. Nurgle, hearing the screams of Isha was enticed and warred against Slaanesh for possession of the Eldar goddess. She now resides in the Garden of Nurlge, in a rotted cage in the corner of Nurgle's throne room. It can be said that Nurgle 'loves' Isha, although his affection manifests in the only way it can; He tests all his concoctions and diseases on Isha, who can cure herself being a goddess of healing. Nurgle measures the success of his new diseases by the amount of time Isha takes to cure herself, and when the Plague God's attention is elsewhere, she whispers the cures for certain plagues to mortals.

And as you said, Cegorach used the duel between Khaine and Slaanesh as an opportunity to escape and flee into the Webway where he hides still, playing his pranks on the Dark Prince of Chaos.

I hope thats what you were asking anyway


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## Abbott (Aug 1, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> I view all 40K fluff optimists as deluded at best, ignorantly arrogant at worst.


you are correct sir:goodpost:


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Platypus5 said:


> By "Optimists," We often believe (or at least find appealing) at least a few the following:
> 
> In our own minds, the "good guys" can somehow win
> Emperor WILL be revived.
> ...


My thoughts are divided into what I got as a grip around the official fluff (which is alot and mostly rumors), and the second is mixing with the official fluff and the same Im writing on my own (currently have one fan fic written with about almost 300 pages, one in process and perhaps 2, maybe 3 planned for the future)

Official fluff: We're pretty ****ed, either Chaos, Necrons or Tyranids will kill us all. I dont think Orks will do that because they want a worthy enemy, Eldar will die out sooner or later and Tau... their fate is uncertain but not positive.

****Spoilers for my own fluff****
Own fluff: In the early 42nd century a new form of Chaos unknown "webway" is found that can bypass the protection on Terra where, if obtained the key delived from the Warp, a chosen one may enter and finish the job Horus failed to do 10 000 years earlier. However depending on does the job, someone of Chaos, xenos out to destroy the Emperor and that would be the end for the Imperium. However if someone chosen by the Emperor himself via the Warp in his "dead"-like state he is in, the Emperor can furfill the prochecy of the Star Child, be reborn and take on the Chaos Gods and perhaps lead the Imperium to victory as he tried once before.

But a in between fraction by some Astartes, branded traitors, is unknown what they want. Its an temporally alliance between a Alpha Legion Lord and a Fallen Angel, neithers name is confirmed but you can specualte who it might be. :biggrin:


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Platypus5 said:


> Well, it occured to me that I was a bit liberal in my use of the word "optimist." What I really meant was that the galaxy would become more good vs. evil.
> 
> To clarify, here is my "ideal" endgame scenario. Unlikely? Yes. Fully accurate fluff-wise? Not yet. Ultimate? I think so.
> 
> ...


Wouldn`t Aun`Va be long dead by then? Tau have short lifespans, and he is already too old to stand (probably in his late thirties).


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## Tzarii (Apr 10, 2010)

> Wouldn`t Aun`Va be long dead by then? Tau have short lifespans, and he is already too old to stand (probably in his late thirties).


The more I read of the fluff the more the Tau seem like they are connected to the Necrontyr some how. Short life spans- check weird religious principals- check insane technology- check limited warp presence- check. All we need is the deceiver to show up...


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Deceiver? They have many. Except they call them Ethereals.:sarcastichand:


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

My god, you're right! Necrontaur FTW!

The Ragnarok whatever thing seems likely. Leman Russ' death speech mentioned the Wolftime and a final battle to which he would return. In Hammer of Daemons during the attempted possession of Alaric by the Tzeentch daemon he sees himself standing at the Emperor's side with all of the other Imperials fighting a huge chaos army. However, can't trust that because it was a Tzeentch-induced vision.

The Blue Scribes, upon completing their mission, wil give the staff back to Tzeentch who will then have enough power to enter the well of destinies and control every single beings life span. Want the C'Tan dead? It can reduce it to a hunched, wizened and frail shadow of it's former self. Want the Emperor removed? Easy. Fast-forward time until the Golden Throne fails and then boom! He dead. Of course, he may then be reincarnated as the Star Child, but Tzeentch would have unbdoubtably cast some sort of curse on this a la Rubric.

All the other Chaos Gods would try and destroy the staff once more, but would fail as none would be strong enough to reach the well, let alone enter it and emerhge still strong enough to fight the now-omnipotent Tzeentch.

'Tis what I think shalt happen.


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## Tzarii (Apr 10, 2010)

The 2 legions that are struck from every record, thats what I want to know about, there is a whole metric crap ton of fluff that can be written there. There is something optimists can look to, but thats about as far as I would go, then again who knows.


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

Hmm, can't believe I didn't think of this sooner. While I think a global campaign will end the 40k universe, does anyone think maybe that the Star Child and Ynnead could team up to take down the chaos gods or at least slaanesh? I think it could happen.:victory:


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The only way the 40K universe is ending is not only do GW decide to kill their cash cow but they'd also have to move the story line in 41K as we know for a fact that the Imperium is still around for at least a few decades into M42. Not sure how much further the Imperium is around as it's not stated either way.


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## Platypus5 (Apr 7, 2010)

Tzarii said:


> The more I read of the fluff the more the Tau seem like they are connected to the Necrontyr some how. Short life spans- check weird religious principals- check insane technology- check limited warp presence- check. All we need is the deceiver to show up...


The Tau hate the Necrons. If anything, the Imperium is closer to furthering the goals of the C'tan than the Tau are: The Tau put much more emphasis on preserving life.

Oh ya, it should be noted that to those Ethereal haters, the Ethereal pheromone effect isn't completely deadly to free will and has a short range. Also, the Imperium would probably employ a similar system if they could: They already try to get absolute power through fear.

Finally, the Ethereals are just plain nicer than, say, the Inquisitors.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Platypus5 said:


> Finally, the Ethereals are just plain nicer than, say, the Inquisitors.


Have you read Courage and Honour? How nice is THAT Ethereal!

'Kill them' He says. Yes, kill them while they are lying on the floor unable to protect themselves. Such a nice fellow.:laugh:


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

The Tau can afford to be "nice" (by comparison, that is) only because the Imperium exists.

If the Imperium ceased to be, you can bet that the Tau would hardly do better when pressed with the choices put forth before them.


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## piotrasdabadman91 (Nov 7, 2009)

Well to start with I dont view CSM as evil. They are just rebels and if the imperium kills lots of psykers everyday just to keep emperor alive then how different is he than other Chaos gods? in fact he is hardly a god if he needs to be life supported. Choas is more of a freedom of speech, ideals and freedom to choose what you believe in sort of thing. 

Tyranids are not any more evil than maggots and flies are. Necrons and Dark Eldar are the only evil races in my point of perspective


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

piotrasdabadman91 said:


> Well to start with I dont view CSM as evil. They are just rebels and if the imperium kills lots of psykers everyday just to keep emperor alive then how different is he than other Chaos gods? in fact he is hardly a god if he needs to be life supported. Choas is more of a freedom of speech, ideals and freedom to choose what you believe in sort of thing.
> 
> Tyranids are not any more evil than maggots and flies are. Necrons and Dark Eldar are the only evil races in my point of perspective


I covered this on an old and controversial thread. It`s called spectrums. Have a look. (But DO NOT revive it! For our sanity!)


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> I covered this on an old and controversial thread. It`s called spectrums. Have a look. (But DO NOT revive it! For our sanity!)


Here is the link if anyone is interested.


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

That is an interesting thread, except I would think that the Imperium encompasses all spectrums.


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## Iron Within (Mar 15, 2008)

I'm sorry but an Imperium/Eldar/Tau alliance strikes me as just plain dumb. This isn't Lord of the Rings, where Elves and Men will stand together against Sauron. Plus the whole good vs. evil doesn't really work in this universe. It's more like one race of self servers vs. another race of self servers. While I would love it if the Emperor came back and put the Imperium on the offensive, I have no desire to see inter-race cooperation. It just seems contrived, and sort of like one of those plot devices that only exists because the plot needs it to exist.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

CommissarGhost said:


> That is an interesting thread, except I would think that the Imperium encompasses all spectrums.


I was generalising. As a whole, not its constituent parts.



Iron Within said:


> I'm sorry but an Imperium/Eldar/Tau alliance strikes me as just plain dumb. This isn't Lord of the Rings, where Elves and Men will stand together against Sauron. Plus the whole good vs. evil doesn't really work in this universe. It's more like one race of self servers vs. another race of self servers. While I would love it if the Emperor came back and put the Imperium on the offensive, I have no desire to see inter-race cooperation. It just seems contrived, and sort of like one of those plot devices that only exists because the plot needs it to exist.



Even in LOTR, such alliances were of convenience and desperation, not some notion of honour or common good. 40k is quite similar in this regard, and such temporary alliances against a greater threat appear quite often in various fluff.

But the idea that any permanent alliance could be formed is, yes, absurd.:laugh:


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## Iron Within (Mar 15, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Even in LOTR, such alliances were of convenience and desperation, not some notion of honour or common good. 40k is quite similar in this regard, and such temporary alliances against a greater threat appear quite often in various fluff.
> 
> But the idea that any permanent alliance could be formed is, yes, absurd.:laugh:


Yes thats true, but I don't seem to remember Elves and Men in open war with each other. I used to be well versed in LOTR lore, but less so recently. I can maybe see Eldar and humans working together a bit, but I don't like the idea. If they were to work together, I would want them to rid the universe of the gayness of the Tau.


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## Redistopholes (Feb 26, 2010)

I'm not entirely optimistic about the whole scenario per say but my prediction given my gathered fluff goes something like this, without being too wordy...

The Golden Throne will fail. In this period of time, Chaos gets a "get out of jail free" card on the material realm while the Emperor/Star Child, as that is what he is really, is in the Immaterium, probably having to deal with all kinds of interesting Warp obstacles. Given this also, the Dragon should awake if it already hasn't by this point. Tyranid movement, Hive Mind control and such, is stemmed by the Emperor, so without him, they're on a rampage for sure. Imperial travel is downed like it has been for the trans-Atlantic when that volcano went off in Iceland (Too soon maybe?  ). So consider this as a return to the Old Dark, or Dark Ages again like before the Grand Crusade as Humanity is relatively cut off without coordinated travel and Earth is having to deal with the awakening of the Dragon. The other races provide relative wild cards and have no major/significant impact really imo. Orks do their ork thing, Tau might even indoctrinate more humans they come across to the greater good, and I won't even bother to make an attempt on Eldar as they could be anywhere at this point with their time line of prophecies.

Catching breath.

So lots of humans die. Then... Emperor is reborn. The sword that Cypher, the Fallen Angel has is returned to him and Lion El'Johnson awakens. The Emperor and El'Johnson hit the restart button on his plans and there it goes. I'll make no attempt to make further predictions but I felt that the above mentioned is the more important that I don't think anyone else has yet mentioned, the whole Cypher and sword bit and the "reawakening of the Emperor" inclusion. But the overall summary is that a lot of bad things are going to happen, I expect Terra is going to bite the big one finally, and humanity will probably be pushed to the brink of its own survival requiring some change in order to adapt and keep going.

A final yet additional speculation might be also that the Dragon and whatever host of an army he brings with him lead to the eventual destruction of any Tyranid they encounter for a number of obvious reasons.

So the optimistic deal? Eh... no... I don't think there will be any major alliances in what we would ever consider as optimistic. I think lots and lots of humans are going to die, but that with the death of the Emperor, he will return, and with it he will bring... a change of scenery.  I don't see this happening anytime soon by GW standards though as they'll probably stretch out our avid following of the HH as long as they can.


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## Tuck3r (Apr 9, 2010)

K here's my random imput. i know it sounds weird but then again so am i
so. With all of our chaotic ppl running around the robot zombies and the evil race (dark eldar) and the bugs aaaand the wild card (hoofed smerfs in armor) we have alot of stuff going on not even mentioning the orks. that and they're all wonderfully focused on Terra... cause emporer's there and he has a gigantic X painted across his chest so when one o them finally does get rid o him all... well... chaos breaks loose but because of plans laid by the emporer humanity doesn't become extinct. here's a loose type plan. 
first emporer dies chaos unleashed and with the flood of the warp the Necrontyr explode into action... maybe explode isn't the right word for em but still...

second chaos unleashed and now with no clear target rampages uncontrolled randomly around the galaxy each individual lord fighting whatever he lays eyes on first.

The tyranid Attack everything that has life and as life creats the warp our gaalaxie just turned on the home town buffet sign and the bugs come a runnin.

As the main force propping up the imperium the space marines see this happening and in a last ditch effort to save humanity reform themselves into leigons and maintain Ultramar-esch realms.

In the warp the chaos gods now released have another person to contend with... the star child(emporer) and he has his own followers(the weird part> The 11'th leigon. You've all heard of the unknown primarchs well when the primarchs we're scattered the second was reduced to a deamon as he was too corrupted to remain in any way identifiable as human. the eleventh however suffered a perhaps more horrible and definately odder fate. You all know that all emotion effects the warp. particualarly very strong emothion. this primarch (aperantly loyal cause of horus' reaction during his vision) is not thrown back out of the warp. he remains there fighting deamons for a looong time.. or not so long time being weird in the warp.. and then he mysteriously starts getting stronger, he's not sure why, lol what does the average human percieve a space marine as, thas right exactly what space marines see the leigon of the damned as. silent demigods appearng from nowhere to rescue their ass from the flame. they emerge to assist the Emporer in fighting off the chaos gods and the emporer gets to try and take the galaxie again whoooooo

so now that i've proved... well... absolutely nothing and probably made everyone very mad at my psychotic statements and mad ramblings i'm going to go eat.:shok:


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

...well said...


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## Tuck3r (Apr 9, 2010)

well thanks... i think. i didn't like how the leigon of the damned was explained and the creation story of slaanesh lends itself to adaptation and manipulation by someone cunning enough to take advantage of it. this is why the emporer nurtured the iconizm of the space marines.


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## hekje (Apr 24, 2010)

Iron Within said:


> I can maybe see Eldar and humans working together a bit, but I don't like the idea. If they were to work together, I would want them to rid the universe of the gayness of the Tau.


I would love to see this happen, but it won't


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## Tzarii (Apr 10, 2010)

Well they came close to it. Eldrad was just a little slow on the draw and picked the wrong primarch to talk to. Had he chosen better there might be an Eldar/Human alliance. However it's not. Somebody picked up a tainted sword and pissed in the cornflakes, thus leading to the quagmire that is human eldar relations. 

Sure if Chaos magically appears in an area where some space marines and some eldar are fighting they will stop fighting each other and go take on the daemons, but right after that (if both sides are still intact) they will go back to fighting. If GW was to make them unite against a common enemy it would only be in a situation that is worse than it is now and there would be a ton of contrived plot devices.

Optimism is cool and all, its just that WH40k is realist relations wise. If earth was terra and humanity was like the imperium I am pretty sure we would make similar decisions for the most part. Except we would probably kill the Tau and there would be people trying to traffick the eldar. Actually let me change my assessment a little. If we were the imperium we would be more slightly more evil.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Tzarii said:


> Optimism is cool and all, its just that WH40k is realist relations wise. If earth was terra and humanity was like the imperium I am pretty sure we would make similar decisions for the most part. Except we would probably kill the Tau and there would be people trying to traffick the eldar. Actually let me change my assessment a little. If we were the imperium we would be more slightly more evil.


No, WH40K isn't a realist universe or anything resembling one. It's strictly pessimistic and over the top. Modern Earth, or most of it, at least, is quite a deal more moral than the Imperium (If you feel morals are subjective, then just imagine I made that statement from a western civilization's point of view) Unless the Eldar or Tau are constantly theatening us, we'd get over any prior attack they made within a few decades and attempt to start an alliance. Sure, resentment may still remain, but our Earth is largely grounded in logic, and logic dictates that if you're being attacked on all sides, it always helps to have allies that are slightly less dickish than your enemies.


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## Tzarii (Apr 10, 2010)

Touche'. I still stand by their being eldar trafficking and tau killing going on though. If aliens saw us and discovered us that were tau or eldar how would they react? "shit these guys know something about war?" "They are barbaric!" "They don't have positron FTL drives?" "Exterminatus!" The thing is eldar and tau are ineffable to us if they were real. We wouldn't know how to react to it. So our reaction would probably over the top to them if we were able to respond. Mainly because we wouldn't know how to respond in kind.

As for morals I agree for the most part. Then again that is largely due to experience and seeing some really messed up shit for only being 25, and that is before joining the army.

But back on topic of optimism in the 40k verse my outlook is one that has come with military service. The warhammer 40k universe is the ultimate embodiment of Murphy's law, worst thing happening at the worst possible time, it does not mean that it is unsurmountable-- it just means that it is a horrible situation. If there was a positive ending it would be such an end that it would make LOTR look like See spot run. The odds are stacked that high.


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## Brother Boozekitty (Sep 29, 2009)

It's been mentioned a couple times, but one quote sums it all up.
"War... war never changes."
If the Imperium dominated, and Chaos and all dirty xeno species were purged, the Imperium would instantly turn on itself and begin finding excuses to tear itself apart. "This world isn't loyal enough", "I think you have doubt. Exterminatus!" We're talking about people here... human beings. Human beings have never lived in peace at any point in time. To believe anything else is 'delusional' and 'arrogant' as stated before, as is believing that removing an exterior threat would result in peace. It simply wouldn't happen. Peace is a downright lie. A prelude to war. A pause between murders.
Optimists see the world the way they wish it was. Pessimists see the world how it really is, and simply accept it. 

WH40K is grimdark sci-fi at its very best. If you want to cover your eyes and pretend it will all be okay, then get out of 40K and try to get a job with the Obama administration. You'll find allot of minds that think the way yours does.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Brother Boozekitty said:


> WH40K is grimdark sci-fi at its very best. If you want to cover your eyes and pretend it will all be okay, then get out of 40K and try to get a job with the Obama administration. You'll find allot of minds that think the way yours does.


No thanks I would rather stay in 40k :biggrin: Why? Because I want to rip aliens apart! To quote a certain movie THIS IS THE IMPERIUM! *Punt* We always win in the end. Why? Because we have plot armour!


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Tzarii said:


> As for morals I agree for the most part. Then again that is largely due to experience and seeing some really messed up shit for only being 25, and that is before joining the army.


Our world can be a pretty dark place, true. But until we start genetically and cybernetically altering babies to turn them into conduits of psychic power, I think we've got the highground.


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## Keen4e (Apr 19, 2010)

I just see no way how could the Imperium ally eldar or tau. All races in warhammer are too stubborn to form any stable alliances. Imperium is xenophobic, eldar are too proud to consider other races as allies rather than tools and finally tau could possibly form an alliance but they are too indoctrinated by their Greater Good ideology to accept compromise.
I'd like to be optimistic, but unless there is some radical change in the ideology of these races I really see no way for them to make an alliance.
The only optimistic ending I can see is that the Emperor or at least Guilliman wakes up and makes finally some changes in the Imperium so that it can advance and reach it's former glory. Then if the Emperor finds how to defeat Chaos, he could focus on the Tyranids, which i believe wouldn't be such a threat if the Emperor could come with another great idea like the creation of the Space Marines.
I know this won't happen neither, but that's probably the only thing that could give at least some hope for the humans in the far future. It's really a deux ex machina, but I think the Emperor is really the only hope, because he seemed to me, to be the last human believing that science would save humanity.


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

I view optimists as deluded at worst, and naive at best.

Their views are yet to be coloured by experience. This will change, it always does.

There are no good guys in 40k, so the badguys will always win.
There is no hope, no peace and no respite - only war, so the fluffy optimism bunnies will be turned into so much red mist and then burned and stomped on.

There is no room in grimdark for optimism. Only resignation. 
You will die and your race will lie forgotten amid the ashes of every other race who has done the same thing since time began.
Accept this as your lot and be grateful.


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

Humanity are the good guys. Enough of this objective crap, we live and kill everything that objects to our existence. Man is good because we are apart of it and the survival of the species is the highest priority no matter how many have to suffer and die to achieve that end. One day the Eldar will all be killed, the Tau will either be crushed or learn to compromise and it will be man alone against the darkness from which they will eventually triumph over the broken bodies of every other sentient race in the galaxy if they must. There is only survival, nothing else. To be good is to survive in any way, shape, or form. Once every threat to the imperium has been crushed then civilization can rebuild and become peaceful and gentle, however until that day the peaceful hippie type exists only to be crushed under the heel of the stronger species.

I'm not a pessimist, this is the way even our world works. Had we not been the stronger of the creatures of this planet we'd be extinct. We were stronger, we outhought, outcreated, and outkilled rivals. It happened on the animal level, tribal level, feudal level, state level, and will continue realistically into space and 40k represents the same thing on the galactic level. After that there will be intergalactic wars and slaughtering of untold numbers to gain superiority and survive. Khorne will be forever happy as bloodshed will never cease either in 40k or irl. Those with the sword will always outlive those with the olive branch.

Although given the examples of optimist thought I am an optimist. Humanity will eventually win, changes pending but still, and destroy every threat to their existence.

In my chapters fluff there will be a great battle as described. The chief librarian, unknown to the chapter itself, is an old nemesis of Slaanesh and will eventually regain enough of his power to gain Slaanesh's attention which will herald a massive assault on the system they control. Overall, I think it will be more of a war of attrition than a single massed winner-take-all battle.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lucio said:


> Humanity are the good guys. Enough of this objective crap, we live and kill everything that objects to our existence. Man is good because we are apart of it and the survival of the species is the highest priority no matter how many have to suffer and die to achieve that end. One day the Eldar will all be killed, the Tau will either be crushed or learn to compromise and it will be man alone against the darkness from which they will eventually triumph over the broken bodies of every other sentient race in the galaxy if they must. There is only survival, nothing else. To be good is to survive in any way, shape, or form. Once every threat to the imperium has been crushed then civilization can rebuild and become peaceful and gentle, however until that day the peaceful hippie type exists only to be crushed under the heel of the stronger species.


Ah, the tenacity of the Human spirit, makes it all the more sweeter when your soul is dragged kicking and screaming from your pathetic flesh to be consumed across Eternity. :spiteful:


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Lucio said:


> To be good is to survive in any way, shape, or form.


And to be religious is to dismiss the hypothetical existential and spiritual elements of our universe in favor of concentrating on concrete, observable phenomenon. :biggrin:

Wait, not it isn't. :scratchhead:

Ha, I kid because I love.



> I'm not a pessimist, this is the way even our world works. Had we not been the stronger of the creatures of this planet we'd be extinct. We were stronger, we outhought, outcreated, and outkilled rivals. It happened on the animal level, tribal level, feudal level, state level, and will continue realistically into space and 40k represents the same thing on the galactic level. After that there will be intergalactic wars and slaughtering of untold numbers to gain superiority and survive. Khorne will be forever happy as bloodshed will never cease either in 40k or irl.


The problem with this way of thinking is that it doesn't recognize that the Imperium is a stagnant force that only has two directions to go: down and backwards. Humanity is slowly becoming incapable of outhinking, outcreating, and outkilling anyone. While they keep the same tech, same super soldiers, and same tricks, the orks grow in numbers, the tau work on better guns, the necron create new pariahs, the tyranid swarms get closer to the galaxy, and the chaos gods grow ever more powerful. The Imperium is a cave man with a very large stick; once upon a time it was top dog, but the rest of the world has long since been ready to move on.


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Ah, the tenacity of the Human spirit, makes it all the more sweeter when your soul is dragged kicking and screaming from your pathetic flesh to be consumed across Eternity. :spiteful:


Only if the head that does the dragging survives the bolt round thats getting put into it :grin:

@kek. Given the 40k universe and the desperation involved "good" in this setting is more of a survival issue than a religious one. I'm not looking at it from a modern viewpoint of what is good but in that setting.I kinda disagree with that assumption, it cycles and eventually the tech will begin to grow again. I dont think it will be stagnate forever. Kinda like the economy, it sucks right now and I'm out of work but I don't expect to be living on raman and soup forever.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Ah, the tenacity of the Human spirit, makes it all the more sweeter when your soul is dragged kicking and screaming from your pathetic flesh to be consumed across Eternity. :spiteful:


You won`t get me. I have no soul. I will join the ranks of the pariahs and ravage existence in the real world, forever beyond your feeble grasp, god of chaos.:taunt:


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Ah, the tenacity of the Human spirit, makes it all the more sweeter when your soul is dragged kicking and screaming from your pathetic flesh to be consumed across Eternity. :spiteful:


Eat Power Sword Warp Spawn! 

Have you people never heard of the idea that we don't need to win just keep resisting? :biggrin:

The Imperium has been Resisting everything for 10k years. Why stop now?


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> Eat Power Sword Warp Spawn!
> 
> Have you people never heard of the idea that we don't need to win just keep resisting? :biggrin:
> 
> The Imperium has been Resisting everything for 10k years. Why stop now?


Because the Imperium is slowly failing. Their armies are dying, they're losing worlds, and the Golden Throne is begining to falter. They can resist, but not forever.



Lucio said:


> @kek. Given the 40k universe and the desperation involved "good" in this setting is more of a survival issue than a religious one. I'm not looking at it from a modern viewpoint of what is good but in that setting.


I wasn't making a comparison between morality and religion, but between two concepts that don't really have anything to do with one another. If you want to argue that morlity is subjective, fine, but it's not subjective to the point that you can alter the word's definition to whatever suits you. Nothing in the English definition of morality suggests that survival meets this criteria. If you want to argue that survival is the primary concern of a species, again, that's your business, but you can't call it morality when the definition of morality has nothing to do with survival.



> I kinda disagree with that assumption, it cycles and eventually the tech will begin to grow again. I dont think it will be stagnate forever. Kinda like the economy, it sucks right now and I'm out of work but I don't expect to be living on raman and soup forever.


Why not, though? The people in charge of the whole affair are so powerful and so intent on keeping things the way they are that any breaks from the norm will be punished severely. This means that any change will have to be made through dissidence. Normally that could work out well for the Imperium, but since they're in a giant consecutive war with the whole of the galaxy, any major civil war is likely to destroy them.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

K3k3000 said:


> Because the Imperium is slowly failing. Their armies are dying, they're losing worlds, and the Golden Throne is begining to falter. They can resist, but not forever.


Bet you five quid we can.

And seriously why do you want to see the Imperium fall so badly?


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## cain the betrayer (Oct 12, 2009)

because chaos is cool and the imperium just isnt :victory:


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> Bet you five quid we can.
> 
> And seriously why do you want to see the Imperium fall so badly?


I don't _want_ the Imperium to fall. It's not a matter of wanting; if it was I'd be pushing for the eldar to make a full comeback and put the necron and tyranid in their places. It's simply a matter of taking into consideration what we know about all the factions and coming to a logical conclusion based on that. 

You stick a completely disarmed and unprepared Batman in an enclosed arena with Superman and tell them to fight and Superman's going to win every time. If it were up to me Batman would kick some Superass, but I understand that it just isn't my call and the facts are working against me.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

K3k3000 said:


> I don't _want_ the Imperium to fall. It's not a matter of wanting; if it was I'd be pushing for the eldar to make a full comeback and put the necron and tyranid in their places. It's simply a matter of taking into consideration what we know about all the factions and coming to a logical conclusion based on that.
> 
> You stick a completely disarmed and unprepared Batman in an enclosed arena with Superman and tell them to fight and Superman's going to win every time. If it were up to me Batman would kick some Superass, but I understand that it just isn't my call and the facts are working against me.


That shows both a pessimistic outlook and a complete lack of understanding of the character of Batman.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> That shows both a pessimistic outlook and a complete lack of understanding of the character of Batman.


A pessimistic outlook is par for the course. And hey, if you know a comic where an unprepared, unarmed, Batman with no resources was able to beat Superman in an enclosed arena, feel free to bring it up.


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

From the Imperiums perspective seeing the emperor as a god they are mandated to do 'good' by keeping the imperium that he had forged. 

Certaintly death and destruction are by no means 'good' in modern terms but in this system I would say so.
Do you really think tzeentch is going to let anything stay the way it is?


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

K3k3000 said:


> A pessimistic outlook is par for the course. And hey, if you know a comic where an unprepared, unarmed, Batman with no resources was able to beat Superman in an enclosed arena, feel free to bring it up.


I love how you have to stack the odds against Batman. For a Start Batman is NEVER unprepared. He's had plans for dealing with Superman for years. Second he always ALWAYS has a Kryptonite ring on his person for just such an occasion. These things have been shown in the comics before. 

To have the outcome you want you would basically have to have Bruce Wayne in his underpants after he just becomes Batman.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Coder59 said:


> I love how you have to stack the odds against Batman. For a Start Batman is NEVER unprepared. He's had plans for dealing with Superman for years. Second he always ALWAYS has a Kryptonite ring on his person for just such an occasion. These things have been shown in the comics before.
> 
> To have the outcome you want you would basically have to have Bruce Wayne in his underpants after he just becomes Batman.


So K3k3000 says in his scenario that Batman is completely unarmed but you tenaciously ignore him and assume Batman is still armed...


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> I love how you have to stack the odds against Batman. For a Start Batman is NEVER unprepared. He's had plans for dealing with Superman for years. Second he always ALWAYS has a Kryptonite ring on his person for just such an occasion. These things have been shown in the comics before.
> 
> To have the outcome you want you would basically have to have Bruce Wayne in his underpants after he just becomes Batman.


I'm aware. I'm saying that Batman without the advantages he usually has would lose in a fight against Superman, even though I and quite a lot of others prefer him over supes. Likewise, I can like the Imperium, or the eldar, or the tau while knowing full well they've go no chance against the overwhelming power that is chaos, orks, necron, and tyranid.

The Imperium is the staple of the 40K universe. Who doesn't like Space Marines? But in lieu of the facts an unbiased fan has to acknowledge that, at present, the Imperium's chance of having a happy ending are infinitesimal, much like the chances of a crippled Batman, still the fan favorite, winning against Superman.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> So K3k3000 says in his scenario that Batman is completely unarmed but you tenaciously ignore him and assume Batman is still armed...


Because the idea of Batman being unarmed is totally impossible. It's Batman he's never unarmed.


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

> How do other fluff fans view people like me? As ignorant fools?


Yes. Yes we do.:grin:

I believe that there won't be a "final battle". Because once that "final battle" happens, GW is going to lose out on a lot of ideas and $$$


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> Because the idea of Batman being unarmed is totally impossible. It's Batman he's never unarmed.


But there are totally god-like entities in the DC universe who could easily pluck Batman from his cave and ... you know what? It was a bad analogy. Not because Batman is never unarmed, but because I have to cripple him in order to make it work. Let's try it with two different super heroes. Let's call it Spiderman vs. Silver Surfer, for the uneccesary alliteration. Spiderman is quite likely the more popular hero, like the Imperium, but he still doesn't hold a candle to the ridiculous power of the Surfer. Fans would want Spidey to win, much like they'd root for the Imperium, but recognize that he simply can't.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

K3k3000 said:


> But there are totally god-like entities in the DC universe who could easily pluck Batman from his cave and ... you know what? It was a bad analogy. Not because Batman is never unarmed, but because I have to cripple him in order to make it work. Let's try it with two different super heroes. Let's call it Spiderman vs. Silver Surfer, for the uneccesary alliteration. Spiderman is quite likely the more popular hero, like the Imperium, but he still doesn't hold a candle to the ridiculous power of the Surfer. Fans would want Spidey to win, much like they'd root for the Imperium, but recognize that he simply can't.


I think the whole superhero analogy is a bad one. 

I would say it's more like The imperium is a body under attack from a whole host of diseases.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> Because the idea of Batman being unarmed is totally impossible. It's Batman he's never unarmed.


Were not discussing the nature and intricate details of Comicbook heroes here P), _k3k3000_'s analogy was perfectly justified. And was used as a comparison to say that all evidence points to the fact that the Imperium is going to die a bloody death, very soon.

Its not that we want the Imperium to lose, its that all the evidence pretty much ensures that it will.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Were not discussing the nature and intricate details of Comicbook heroes here P), _k3k3000_'s analogy was perfectly justified.


No it wasn't it was a bad analogy as he himself admitted.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> No it wasn't it was a bad analogy as he himself admitted.


It wasn't the best analogy no, but you countered it based on the details of Batman.. rather than what the analogy represented; The fact that all evidence points to the fact that the Imperium is going to fall.


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## Herald of Huanchi (Feb 1, 2009)

Nananananananana Imperium!!

It was a good analogy.

Both have the best plot armour money can buy!

:biggrin:


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