# Space Marines: First Look



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

*Codex: Space Marines – First Impressions*
_Chapter Tactics:_ Chapter Tactics have changed and almost all improved (I’m truly sorry, Raven Guard). My own army, Ultramarines, really love this; Tactical Doctrine now gives re-rolls in combat as well as with shooting, with Devastator giving army-wide re-rolls of 1 to hit in shooting and Twin-Linking Devastators/Devastator Centurions, and Assault gaining the huge improvement of army-wide re-rolls of 1 to hit in combat with flat re-rolls for any Assault Marines, Bikers, Attack Bikers or Assault Centurions. They’re all _great_ benefits to get for free. The silliness starts happening in the Gladius Strike Force – the mandatory Demi-Company gives you an additional use of the Tactical Doctrine, and the Gladius Strike Force as a whole doubles down on all of the Doctrines. That’s one for each turn of a 7-turn game! Calgar lets you re-use yet another Doctrine, giving you a staggering _four turns_ of Tactical Doctrine. Very, very flexible and reliable – very Ultramarine. 

White Scars are still pretty much the same – flat Skilled Rider now, so no stacking Born in the Saddle with Skilled Rider, but on the other hand; everyone gets Hit and Run. Everyone, no restrictions. Centurions can now escape combat, and Hammernators can bounce around like nobody’s business. Still a very solid set of Chapter Tactics, especially with Khan. They also re-roll Run moves, but given the typical Bikes ‘n’ Centurions builds of White Scars, I don’t think it’s a huge deal. Imperial Fists remained exactly the same, but Bolter Drill now works on Special Ammunition. Kantor’s back, baby! With Sternguard dropping in points, Kantor giving them Objective Secured, and re-rolling 1s to hit, I think that a Veteran-heavy Imperial Fist is going to be a very scary army – 30 Sternguard with Kantor Drop Podding in, with Tank Hunters Devastators to deal with tanks sounds like a scary list to me. Black Templars make out like bandits in the new Codex, replacing their old, odd challenge-centric rules for gaining the Mark of Khorne for the unit if any dude gets killed by shooting while keeping Crusader and Adamantium Will _EDIT: But only for that turn - not nearly as good, but still solid; You get Rage and Counter-Attack until the end of the turn if you lose a guy in the shooting phase or to Overwatch. That's a lot more iffy, but BT are still solid - either you take no casualties going in, which is great, or you get Rage, which is great; either your opponent doesn't shoot if he wants to charge, which is great, or you get Counter-Attack, which is great._. Once again, Chaos gets shafted by an improved Loyalist equivalent. With Neophytes going up to WS/BS4, the Emperor’s Champion improving significantly and a terrifying Land Raider formation to get your guys where they need to go, expect to see some Templars crusading in your locale.

Iron Hands stayed roughly the same, but their 6+ FnP is now a +1 to FnP giving a 6+ if you don’t have it. Iron Hands Command Squads at 4+ FnP standard? Yep. Terminators or Centurions given Endurance for 3+ Feel No Pain? It’s more likely than you think. The Iron Hands Chapter Master with Chains of the Gorgon is now sitting at 3+ Feel No Pain, because that guy wasn’t enough of an ass to kill last time. Other than that, they still get IWND on characters and tanks and can repair things more easily. Salamanders probably saw the least change – they still have Master-Crafted upgrades for free on characters, and they still get Shred and Tank Hunters on their Flame weapons. Their flame resistance is no longer re-rolling armour saves, but FnP 4+. A decrease against regular Flamers, sure, but getting a 4+ save against the Heldrake or Flamestorm Cannons is good compensation. Probably a wash overall. Raven Guard… oh, Raven Guard. They’ve lost Scout, and replaced their first-run Stealth for Shrouded as long as you’re not a vehicle or embarked in one. They still get to use their Jump Packs in the movement and assault phase, but Assault Marines are still ass and Vanguard get pseudo-Fleet included as default now, so the only benefit you get is a handful of Shred Str4 HoW hits. I’m truly sorry, Raven Guard players.

_Special Characters:_ Most of these guys stayed focussed on the same kind of thing – none of the beatsticks became support characters or vice versa. Calgar did transition from a support character to more a beatstick – he lost his ‘Army can choose to pass or fail Morale checks’, which is a *huge* deal, but he can now pick a Warlord Trait rather than rolling 3 times and picking one (with a much-improved Warlord Trait table to boot), and his Gauntlets of Ultramar are no longer Unwieldy so he can give a high-speed ultraviolent enema to any unfortunate xenos or heretic that comes within arm’s reach. However, he’s still super pricey at 275pts (285pts in the Armour of Antilochus – which, by the way, is still basically mandatory whatever the internet says. Having to stand still to fire your Bombardment makes you a total chump). Being able to use a Doctrine twice is now even better given the improvements to the Doctrines, a nice plus. While he’s certainly a lot fightier, and Chapter Tactics makes him even moreso, I think the loss of the old God of War makes him a little overpriced for what he does.

Captain Disdain for Plebs is almost exactly the same guy – 20pts cheaper, although he lost his once-per-game Furious Charge for his unit and Rites of War is now a Warlord Trait so he needs to be in charge if you want to use him. Oh, also lost his Feel No Pain. Shame. Still gives a Tactical Squad a good bonus, and gives you +1 to reserves, but being entirely unspectacular in combat (except the one time you Coup De Grace a Hive Tyrant or something) and having no really good unit to chill with (I guess Honour Guard, but you might as well tool up a Captain for the same points cost, or run a buff character to shore up the weaknesses of Honour Guard) makes him a fairly unconvincing choice unless you’re running the Demi-Company and want his Rites of War, Surprise Attack and Battle-Forged Heroes special rules more than simply a punchy guy. The biggest strike against him is that at 165pts, he’s the same price as McGyver – sorry, I mean Tigurius. Tigurius is _amazing_. He’s the same cost, the same stats, but his Warlord Trait now lets him pick a unit within 12” every shooting phase and give them Rending. If you’re playing Ultramarines, take Tigurius. Just do it. Cassius and Telion are still pretty much the exact same. Chronus is still fairly garbage, even as an HQ. He does let you bring an HQ Land Raider that becomes a Character and therefore gets a Warlord Trait, which could be amusing if you roll up Master of Ambush or a Command aura trait.

Khan stayed the same, although Champion of Humanity is now one of his special rules and he gets a 12” bubble of re-rolling Morale, Pinning and Fear as a Trait. Vulkan appears to be exactly the same, as does Lysander although they both have FnP as Warlord Traits now. Shrike’s rules are still broken because he has Infiltrate and can only join Jump Infantry so he has to stand about like a berk. If you somehow get him to work, he’s still middling in combat and provides no real bonuses to his army. Blah. Kantor is again the same dude – he might be a bit cheaper? He also has Artificer Armour, which I don’t remember from the last book. Helbrecht is much improved simply by giving his squad flat Furious Charge for the whole game, and the improvements to BT in general. Emperor’s Champion got a _lot_ better. Slightly pricier, and still only W2, but the Black Sword is now simply +2 Str AP2 Master-Crafted, with 6s getting Instakill in challenges. He’s going to mess people up in challenges, especially once the comically-easy trigger for Righteous Zeal kicks in and he gets Rage for 5 attacks on the charge. Grimaldus seems pretty much the same guy, although his Servitors are now a 6” bubble of actual Feel No Pain which ends up making him fairly horrifying aura effect of Zealot and Feel No Pain.

_Generic Leaders:_ Generic characters are much of a muchness. Captains in Terminator Armour get dirt cheap Relic Blades which is very nice, Librarians can now access all Disciplines (Divination,Telepathy and Malefic – thank you very much, GW) and Chaplains are the same mediocre support characters they’ve been for a couple editions. Master of the Forge is gone, with the basic Techmarine taking his place with the same statline for a mere 65pts.

_Troops units:_ Tacticals are the same guys you know and love, but with the improvement of Chapter Tactics. They can also get a Grav-Cannon with Grav-Amp as a Heavy Weapon slot, which is wonderful as it keeps them mobile, but at 35pts it’s a _very_ pricey thing to buy. Scouts saw a huge improvement in a +1 WS/BS buff. They’re still only 11pts each, which puts them on a very real level with Tacticals now. With the Land Speeder Storm going down to a measly 40pts, with BS4, and a Str4 Blind Large Blast weapon plus a hull mount, I foresee a lot of Scouts running around. Crusader Squads are now _badasses_. They can still run as a 5-man squad with a Special and Heavy weapon, but their new Chapter Tactics make a 16-man in an ObSec Land Raider Crusader or a giant 20-man footslogger unit much more viable. Rage and Counter-Attack once a dude dies? Wow!

_Elite duders:_ Sternguard are now a measly 22pts per model. That’s _crazy_ good value. Combi-weapons are still 10pts per, but that’s totally worth it. As with all infantry, they got a buff from Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists particularly so), and since they were good before, that results in one very strong shooting specialist. Vanguard got a lot more attractive, with their combat weapons getting a huge points reduction (a full 10pts off of retail) seeing all or most guys getting a weapon upgrade. A Veteran with Jump Pack and Power Sword will set you back 28pts, which is quite acceptable. Glorious Intervention giving them Fleet combined with their mobility with Jump Packs gives them a reason to exist even with Lightning Claw Terminators getting a points reduction into what may well be the realms of viability. 

However, Vanguard do compete with Honour Guard, who are now Elites with no unlocking requirement. 25pts buys you a Ld10 Veteran in Artificer Armour with a Bolt Pistol, Boltgun and Power Weapon, with options for Relic Blades at 10pts per and a Chapter Banner or Standard of the Emperor Ascendant for additional attacks and Zealot. The presence of such as strong close combat unit in the same slot, with Artificer Armour and a Boltgun, results in a lot of competition between them and Vanguard. It looks like Honour Guard are flat out better on paper, but the mobility of a Jump Pack and Fleet by another name means it certainly bears playtesting. The last of the three Elite shock assault troops is the Assault Terminator. Exactly the same dudes, but with a significant 5pt discount on the Lightning Claw variety (Hammernators are still alas 45pts, but that’s a pretty appropriate price in fairness).

Dreadnoughts got a _huge_ buff. Four attacks each makes them a hell of a lot more viable in combat. Ranged weapons getting a large points on the ranged weapons (Lascannon down to 15pts, Assault Cannon down to 10pts, everything else down to 5pts) means they're going to be significantly cheaper on average. Oh, and they have Chapter Tactics. And come in squadrons of 1-3. Yep, you can have 3 Ironclads charging in with _six attacks each_ on the charge. Oh, and re-rolling 1s to hit from Assault Doctrine. Suck it, Blood Angels! From Dreadnoughts, we go to Tactical Dreadnoughts - Terminator Squads. A 5pt reduction is a huge bonus, and when put into the First Company Strike Force they become a strong choice, if perhaps not something to build a competitive list around. Again, Chapter Tactics improve them - White Scars Terminators being able to Hit and Run around the place and Ultramarines Terminators re-rolling 1s all over the place are both greatly improved over the old verson (and let's face it, they _so_ needed it!).

Assault Centurions and Legion of the Damned are the same dudes, as far as I can tell. Command Squads are available in Elites without an unlock, so if you like special weapon squads, this is the unit for you - 4 Plasma Guns and an Apothecary in a Razorback, with all the re-rolls to Hit that Space Marines now have access to could be a very promising unit. Alternatively, 3 White Scar Biker Command Squads with Storm Shields and Grav Guns on every man, or Iron Hands Bikers with 4+ Feel No Pain. The possibilities are endless!

_Gotta Go Fast:_ Assault Squads are still shit. Being able to take a Chainfist on one A1 dude per 5 doesn't make them good, and Chapter Tactics applies to the other melee units you can bring that overshadow them in basically every way. For example, Scout Bikers are 1pt more weighing in at 18pts per model. They get a TL Bolter, a Shotgun, T5, Infiltrate and Scout. Okay, one less attack and only a 4+ save, but they have Hammer of Wrath while still moving 12" to counter the former and T5 to mitigate the latter. 3 guys can swap out their TL Bolters for Grenade Launchers, which is probably a good idea now that they're BS4. They can also pay 20pts to turn terrain into the enemy's deployment zone into Dangerous Terrain, which is amusing but probably not all that useful unless you're fighting a Green Tide or something similar. 

Regular Space Marine bikers are the same, although Attack Bikers are 5pts cheaper, but become Troops with any biker character rather than just a Captain, and don't have to bring at least 5 guys. 3-man squads with 2 Grav Guns and a Combi-Grav may very well see use as the minimum requirements for the Demi-Company. Attack Bikes, as their own unit, also benefit from the 5pt discount. 50pts for a T5 2-wound Space Marine with 12" move and a Multi-Melta and Objective Secured is a great little unit to have in the Demi-Company - and fills up a minimum slot too! Land Speeders are 5pts cheaper too, which is nice, but some of the weapons got more 5pts more expensive making it a wash for the previously popular Heavy Flamer/Heavy Flamer or Multi-Melta/Multi-Melta Speeders. If you have a full squadron of 3, they get an extra 6" Flat Out, which given the investment and firepower in 3 Speeders is unlikely to come up but they do have Objective Secured in a Demi-Company which means you can steal objectives with them if it ever comes up.

Transports are in Fast Attack but otherwise unchanged, which is basically irrelevant other than being able to put Terminators and Centurions in Drop Pods. The Stormtalon got a big buff, as if it needed it; Skyhammers are down to a mere 5pts, TL Lascannons to 15pts, and Cyclone Missile Launchers to 20pts. It has Strafing Run as standard in both Hover and Zooming modes, and gained an additional special rule - Vectored Afterburners, which gives it +6" Flat Out in Zooming mode and +1 to Jink saves in Hover mode. Probably won't come up very often, but nice to have. And for free!

_He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother:_ Devastators can bring Grav-Cannons with Grav-Amps for 35pts, which is nice but horribly expensive for MEQ bodies. The unit can bring an Armorium Cherub, which is an Ammo Runt by another name. Pretty useful for a mere 5pts. Centurion Devastators are 5pts cheaper, and given how good they were before, they're still extremely strong (never forget, Chapter Tactics is letting them get Hit and Run or get Twin-Linked from Devastator Doctrine). You have to buy the Veteran Sergeant upgrade now too. Thunderfire Cannons are the same but the Techmarine has an extra wound and BS5. They were good before, even better now. Having 3 in a squad together gives them BS6, which is probably irrelevant given you're firing 12 Str6 barrage blasts at somebody. 

Predators are the same as they were, but if you bring a squadron of 3, they get Monster Hunter and Tank Hunters which is awesome. They can also be buffed in squadrons (Prescience/Forewarning and Tigurius' warlord trait to give them Rending? Come right in). Vindicators got 5pts cheaper, and 3 of them can combine fire to get a Str10 AP2 Apocalyptic Blast with Ignores Cover, which is pretty horrific for anybody to be facing. The problem with both of these is that if a single tank dies, they lose the squadron bonus, which severely limits them (especially with side armour 11). They really need Forewarning or heavy cover or something to be particularly viable. The Whirlwind is still pennies, and 3 of them together gets Shred and Pinning. I actually think that makes them a lot better - 3 Whirlwinds is only 195pts, and fires off 3 Str5 AP4 Shred large blasts with Barrage. Necron Warriors getting you down? No longer! Much like the Predator squadron, these guys benefit hugely from the Storm of Fire warlord trait to make them Rending.

Hunters are down to 70pts, and squadrons of 3 can re-roll Savant Lock rolls. Still pretty blah, especially with the changes to the Stalker. So saying, it can now fire at one target and be Twin-Linked, or at two targets. No reduction to BS any more. The kicker? A squadron of 3 has Ignores Cover, and can still split their shots off (they have three shots with each gun, so you can fire 9 shots at one target and then allocate the other 3 sets of 3 shots at whatever targets you like). Suck it, Eldar, suck it, Dark Eldar! They're also AV12/12/10, which seems higher than before (although I'd have to check that).

Stormraven and all variants of Land Raider remain the same. Well, they changed Terminators, which is a small step towards fixing the Phobos and Plasma Pistols.

Next up, formations and the Gladius Strike Force.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

*Gladius Strike Force:*
The Space Marines' 'combi-detachment' in the vein of Warhosts and Decurions. 1-2 Demi-Companies, 0-3 Command choices, and 1-10 Support choices. The Command Benefit lets you become Ultramarines and use the Combat Doctrines (Ultramarines get to double up on them, becoming re-rolls: the army). If you bring two of the Demi-Companies (mandatory choice - one led by a Chaplain, one by a Captain) then all the transports for those Demi-Companies are free. A nice benefit that lets you fit basically a full Battle Company in 1850pts.

*Demi-Company:* 1 Captain/Chaplain (or named equivalent), 0-1 Command Squads, 3 Tactical Squads, 1 Assault/Biker/Assault Centurion/Land Speeder/Attack Bike squad, 1 Devastator/Centurion Devastator squad, 0-1 Dreadnought/Venerable/Ironclad Squadron. Command Benefit of getting to use the Tactical Doctrine once per game, and *Objective Secured*. Objective Secured Centurions and Attack Bikes? Say it ain't so! This is a pretty damn cool formation. It's not particularly restrictive, nominates you for the Gladius Strike Force, and gives you a free Tactical Doctrine to boot over bringing a CAD. As mentioned, bringing 2 lets you take free transports for everyone who can bring them. I think that a strong composition for it would be 3 full-strength Tactical Squads in Rhinos, a lone Attack Bike or a 3-man Biker Squad for the 'Assault slot', and a squad of Devastators with Lascannons or Grav Centurions in the 'Devastator slot'. Maybe add a Dreadnought or two, because I think they're a much more viable unit now and they look badass, and more games-mechanically because some Objective Secured Dreadnoughts is something I'd like to play around with.

*Command:*
_Strike Force Command:_ Named Chapter Master, Captain or Chaplain, and 0-1 Honour Guard, Command Squads or Emperor's Champion. No Command Benefit, but lets you slot in dudes with no real restrictions.

*Support:*
_Anti-Air Defence Force:_
1 Hunter Squadron with at least 1 Hunter, 1 Stalker Squadron with at least 2 Stalkers. If the Hunter hits a Flyer or FMC, the Stalkers get +1 BS against that target. I guess if there's one Flyer you really, really gotta kill, you could bring this.

_1st Company Taskforce:_
3-5 units of Veterans (Sternguard, Vanguard, or either type of Terminator). They all get Fear and Fearless; you pick one unit before deployment and they all have Preferred Enemy against it; and if an enemy unit is within 12" of at least 3 units from this formation, they get a -2 Leadership penalty. Sternguard and Terminators both got price breaks you say? Well, okay! This is just begging for a Whirlwind Squadron, 10th Company Taskforce (wait for it), or Terrify to make your enemy break and run before you fire a single shot. With Tigurius being the beast that he is, and even moreso in the Librarius formation (wait for it), you can get some Drop Podding Sternguard or wait for a Terminator-armoured beta strike and Terrify those annoying Broadsides, Riptides and Vaul's Wrath Artillery off the board without having to squeeze your trigger finger. Oh, and preferred enemy, for when you absolutely gotta kill every motherfucker in the room.

_Strike Force Ultra:_
Captain in Terminator Armour, 2 Terminator Squads, 2 Terminator Assault Squads, Venerable Dreadnought, Land Raider of any type, Stormraven Gunship. Everything has to go into reserve except the Land Raider and anything in it. Make one Reserve roll for the whole formation starting from turn 1; all Terminators get +1 shot on the turn they Deep Strike or disembark for the first time; all Assault Terminators get +1 attack on the turn they disembark for the first time. Well, it's hugely expensive, but way better than the old dataslate for it that gave them shitty one-turn Battle Focus or Hammer of Wrath. Black Templars Hammernators taking a casualty on Overwatch charge with 5 attacks each, which is hilarious, and getting +1 shot on the same turn as you call one of your Doctrines from being a Gladius Strike Force gives 'tactical' Terminators a surprising punch.

_Reclusiam Command Squad:_
Chaplain in a Command Squad in a Rhino gives a 6" bubble of Zealot. Yawn.

_10th Company Taskforce:_
3-5 units of Scouts/Scout Bikers, optional Telion. First turn everyone gets Precision Shots, and everyone gets Stealth until they move/shoot/assault. The Stealth until you do absolutely anything at all is kind of odd, but on the other hand, you can for a very reasonable price bring 3 squads of Scouts in Land Speeder Storms that rock a 3+ Jink on turn 1 (protecting you from the close-range firepower you've Infiltrated close to), and then scoot forwards in your own turn and rapid-fire your Precision bolters out of the top. Great? No, but it certainly has potential.

_Stormwing:_
Stormraven and 2 Stormtalons, same old.

_Centurion Siegebreaker Cohort:_
2-4 Assault Centurion Squads, Ironclad Dreadnought Squadron. Re-roll armour penetration against Buildings, and if they destroy a vehicle or building it does 2D6 Str6 AP4 hits to the squad inside. Still never going to catch anything unless you bring a CAD for Drop Pods. If you do actually kill a transport, you're going to absolutely ruin the day of the squad inside, so bringing Telion, 2 Scout Squads and 3 Drop Pods as a CAD, putting the 2 Centurion Squads and the Ironclad in them, then dropping them down into your opponent's transports forces him to lose firepower by getting the hell out of there, force him to deal with the T5 2+ save dudes and AV13 Dreadnought in their deployment zone or lose his transports and everyone inside. Overall, good if you build around it but needs to be built around to be at all effective.

_Land Raider Spearhead:_
3 Land Raiders of any type. As long as they're within 6" of another Land Raider, they ignore all results other than Explodes on the damage chart. Formation gets re-rolls to wound and pen against Super-Heavies/Gargantuans. The re-rolls to wound and pen are kind of blarg, but ignoring the damage chart other than Explodes? On an AV14/14/14 vehicle? Gulp. Can you say hard to kill? Yet another reason that Black Templars are fucking _badasses_ in the new Codex.

_Librarius Conclave_
3-5 Librarians, can swap one for Tiggy. At the start of the psychic phase, you can pick one Librarian - Librarians within 12" of him can't cast, but he gains all of their powers. If there's one Librarian within 12", he casts on a 3+ - if there's more than one, he casts on a 2+. I think there's a lot of use for this especially with Tigurius, especially with how good the various psychic buffs can be on the Space Marine units (vehicle squadrons with 4++ or Shrouding or Invisibility, or the newly accessible Honour Guard with Endurance - Iron Hands Honour Guard with 3+ Feel No Pain doesn't bear thinking about...). Sadly, Black Templars can't bring Librarians or they could be running hordes of Marines with Rage, Counter-Attack, Crusader, Adamantum Will, Eternal Warrior, Relentless and Feel No Pain (4+) or Shrouding.

_Armoured Taskforce:_
Techmarine, 0-3 units of Thunderfire Cannons, 3-5 units of tanks (Predators, Vindicators or Whirlwinds). Tanks within 6" of the Techmarine (or a Techmarine Gunner from a Thunderfire Cannon) ignore Stunned and Shaken, and Techmarines get +1 Repair. Eh, it's a way of getting tanks in, but I'm not sure that I think it's particularly worth it. If you could bring more Techmarines and really get silly with Iron Hands bonuses and Servo-Harnesses repairing on 2+, then maybe. As it is, it's not too bad. Ignoring a full half of the damage table is undeniably good, and if you're anything like me, your Vindicator has been shaken or stunned leaving you with an expensive AV13/11/10 snap-firing Storm Bolter for a couple of turns in at least 50% of your games.

_Suppression Force:_
Land Speeder Squadron and a Whirlwind Squadron of at least 2 models. The Land Speeders can pick a unit within 18" to 'mark' - the Whirlwinds can shoot at a marked target even if it's out of range, and re-roll To Hit, although the Speeders can't then Flat Out to Zoidberg out of there. Remember this bad boy from the 5th edition Apocalypse release? A very cheap formation which makes it good for running a Gladius in small points games. Buy an extra Whirlwind and they'll be packing Shred, Pinning and Twin-Linked at infinite range, which for 65pts per is all you can reasonably ask for.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

I'm actually mostly impressed by how amazing scouts in landspeeder storms are now... Talk about a huge buff there for a perfect cheap unit... Do they still come with the deepstrike jammers?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

In conclusion, I'm a *big fan*. There's nothing in this new Codex that's making me think "Oh, fuck, I'm going to throw this model away", and there's nothing that makes me go "Quick, get to the webstore, I need me ten of these bad boys". There's a lot of small buffs that add up to really quite a big buff indeed, without making anything overpowered or auto-pick. There's no clear winner for Chapter Tactics - there's a big loser in Raven Guard, which is a downer - which makes for what I think will be a very flexible Codex capable of supporting multiple builds effectively. Top job, GW!


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

Dreadnoughts in squadrons you say! I just got erect!


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

EDIT: Okay, I misread Black Templars. You get Rage and Counter-Attack until the end of the _turn_ if you lose a guy in the shooting phase or to Overwatch. That's a lot more iffy, but BT are still solid - either you take no casualties going in, which is great, or you get Rage, which is great; either your opponent doesn't shoot if he wants to charge, which is great, or you get Counter-Attack, which is great.

Yep - Dreadnoughts in squadrons with super-cheap weapons, 4 attacks each and Chapter Tactics (and Objective Secured in a Demi-Company) is definitely something worth looking into. Just exploring that:

Ultramarines Dreadnoughts: Combat Doctrines - re-rolls of 1 to hit in shooting with Devastator, re-roll 1s to hit in combat with Assault, re-roll 1s to hit with Tactical. Can probably do these on multiple turns. Possibly my favourite.

White Scars Dreadnoughts: Hit and Run, re-roll Run. Can you say Ironclads? My joint favourite, because Hit and Running with a squadron of Dreadnoughts is hilarious and good in game.

Imperial Fists Dreadnoughts: Re-roll 1s to hit with your underslung Storm Bolter, and re-roll armour penetration against Buildings. Probably the worst deal.

Black Templars Dreadnoughts: Crusader and Adamantium Will. If one of them dies on Overwatch or to Shooting, they gain Rage and Counter-Attack until the end of that turn.

Iron Hands Dreadnoughts: IWND, can be repaired more easily.

Salamanders Dreadnoughts: Re-roll To Wound with their Heavy Flamer. Pretty eh.

Raven Guard Dreadnoughts: Shrouded on turn 1 if they 'do not begin the game inside a transport vehicle', so I guess they run up turn 1, pop smoke, then use the Raven Guard 3+ Night Fight roll to try and get 2+ cover on turn 1. At least better than Imperial Fists.



elmir said:


> I'm actually mostly impressed by how amazing scouts in landspeeder storms are now... Talk about a huge buff there for a perfect cheap unit... Do they still come with the deepstrike jammers?


Yep, they still have the quirky Jammer Beacon. Price cut to 40pts, increase to BS4, Cerberus Launcher increased to Str4 AP6 Large Blast Blind, and then rapid-fire some BS4 Precision Shot Scouts out of it like you're a Dark Eldar - damn it's nice!


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

For me, that unit isn't just "quircky" to ally with my GKs. They bring the teleport homers AND make sure the enemy is less likely to pull the same trick on me. Coupled with some servo skulls from an inquisitor, this could be amazing to deny opponent deployment/deepstrike. 

Can't wait to get started on my excorsists to help out my GKs...


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

elmir said:


> For me, that unit isn't just "quircky" to ally with my GKs. They bring the teleport homers AND make sure the enemy is less likely to pull the same trick on me. Coupled with some servo skulls from an inquisitor, this could be amazing to deny opponent deployment/deepstrike.


I say it's quirky because it's pretty unlikely to actually work - your enemy has to choose to Deep Strike within 12" of the Storm knowing that it has a Jamming Beacon, and given that he has 6'x4' of space to Deep Strike into, he's probably not going to pick the area with Deep Strike defences. It's funny when it works, but I wouldn't count on it.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Well, the main problem with deepstrikes is that you do have 6x4' technically... But it's only usefull to get the roughly where you want it from the get-go. But just deepstriking willy nilly is a pain in the butt. Giving it a pretty damn large plate of "unstable deepstriking" is something that is extremely underestemated. Nothing to base your whole strategy around, but a brilliant little extra for an army that tries to deepstrike itself too. 

Playing with my GKs... a few bad scatters can prove to be costly. Those jammers are amazing to add up to deny the "deployment tricks" an opponent can do, coupled with some more stable deepstriking yourself. Especially after a 12" scout move. 

It's just the cherry on top for a unit that's already ridiculously good and gels really well with GKs.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I was thinking that Shrouded and Tactical doctrines for RG if you take the formation could produce some kind of valid Drop Pod build, but if I'm reading you right then you don't get Shrouded if you Pod in on T1?

Man, I picked literally the worst fucking Legion in the game about 10 years ago...


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Yeah, Raven Guard only get Shrouded if they begin turn 1 on foot, which sucks balls. I mean, sure, 3+ your guys have +3 cover on turn 1, but that can be reduced if not negated by Searchlights (and fuck you if you're playing Tau or Dark Eldar) and compared to army-wide Hit and Run or two turns of army-wide re-rolls to hit?

Assault Marines are still crap, and Vanguard now get re-rolling charge built into their rules so Winged Deliverance _only_ gives them the HoW hit rather than giving them a larger charge distance.

I'm truly sorry for you, all Raven Guard players. That's what, at least two books in a row you've been shafted, and the only good thing they had in 5th was Shrike infiltrating some Hammernators - because, y'know, the fluff didn't matter anyway.

At least Scouts are Ws4 Bs4 so you can run better Scout-heavy armies, but still not Raven Guard specific (I guess the first turn Stealth and Shrouded in the 10th company formation is a thing? 2+ cover in ruins instead of 3+? But you don't get it if you bring Storms, which are great)


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Ok, Marines got the same "every unit got better--and have some high quality formations!" treatment as Eldar, but this army, they actually needed it. I don't think they're on a level with the 'Crons, necessarily, but...

If this trend continues, and by all accounts it looks like it will, I'm ready for CSM to be rereleased.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Oh, I think Space Marines can give Necrons a very hard game. Not even Necrons want to be shooting 80 Objective Secured space Marines and 10 Objective Secured transports off of objectives, given that they can Combat Squad into 30+ units. Can Space Marines kill Necrons in a fight? Probably not. Can they beat them at the mission? Oh yes.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

In fairness a chunk of Necron stuff doesn't enjoy (essentially) twin linked Hellfire rounds being rapid fired then overwatched into their faces either.

I think I might actually just play my Raven Guard using Ultramarines tactics... But at least I can now field my 30 Scouts for reasons other than "The fluff says I should".


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

*Psst* Scouts are where it's at. Bolters do very little, so pay as little as you can for them, and pick up more special units. Lets you take more things like Whirlwinds or Thunderfires (or relevant formations) and Skyhammers.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Vaz said:


> *Psst* Scouts are where it's at. Bolters do very little, so pay as little as you can for them, and pick up more special units. Lets you take more things like Whirlwinds or Thunderfires (or relevant formations) and Skyhammers.


Not sure if that statement holds true now that regular marines have acces to grav cannon + amp... But yeah, scouts are great value for points.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

If you want Grav Cannons you take them on Centurions or Skyhammer Devs where they're relentless. On Tac Marines? Nope.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I think Tacticals have a place (even if that place is just to use the Battle Company, or Ultramarines giving them re-rolls all day erryray), but yeah, Scouts got majorly buffed this time around.



Sethis said:


> In fairness a chunk of Necron stuff doesn't enjoy (essentially) twin linked Hellfire rounds being rapid fired then overwatched into their faces either.


Hellfire is actually going to do quite little to your average Necron unit since they're really, _really_ resilient against torrent weapons, but Kraken Rounds can catch them out if you can get the drop on them in the open. Other than that, Grav Centurions will do work as they always do, and Space Marine combat units are pretty good at anti-Necron duty (Honour Guard, with a mix of Relic Blades and Power Axes if you're not list tailoring or Power Mauls if you are; Assault Terminators although you might really regret not being able to Sweeping Advance since that's the only efficient way to kill most Necrons; Chapter Master on Bike is highly resilient to basically everything Necrons can throw at him except Scythe Lychguard and while not extremely rare or anything, Lychguard still aren't in every list by a long shot).

But overall as Space Marines, I think you'll focus on doing damage where you can but then have Objective Secured carry the game for you (while the Battle Company obviously does an _amazing_ job of it, the regular Demi-Company and Kantor can both make decent cracks at saturating OS).


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## danyboy (Jun 24, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Iron Hands stayed roughly the same (...)Other than that, they still get IWND on characters and tanks and can repair things more easily.


Only Dreadnoughts have Chapter Tactics special rule. 
Nothing in new Codex allows to expand Chapter Tactics special rule to models without that rule (like it was in 6th edition Codex: "even though vehicles do not have the Chapter Tactics special rule").
Chapter Tactics has very detailed description what models are affected anytime the rule calls Chapter, Chapter Tactics and models/units. etc.


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## SonofVulkan (Apr 14, 2010)

So, is it true that Calgars gauntlets are no longer unwieldly, so that he strikes on initiative 5? Is this a mistake that they will FAQ at some point?


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

SonofVulkan said:


> So, is it true that Calgars gauntlets are no longer unwieldly, so that he strikes on initiative 5? Is this a mistake that they will FAQ at some point?


It's true and unlikely the FAQ it. He's a Ultramarine after all - Can't have everyones favorite smurf getting nerfs.


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## danyboy (Jun 24, 2009)

C'mon, he is Lord od War with 2+/4++, T4, 4 wounds (and for sure Feel No Pain from Warlord Trait table) for 275 points. 
Give him SOMETHING cool, or his armour once again will cover dust....


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

It says about how the Gauntlets of Ultramar are surprisingly dextrous for their size, so no, I doubt it will be FAQ'd.

Calgar still probably isn't worth it for 285pts (yes you are bringing Armour of Antilochus because standing around for a turn to fire your Orbital Strike is total drek). Losing his old 'choose to pass morale checks' rule really hit him hard.


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## the_barwn (Jul 23, 2011)

Sethis said:


> In fairness a chunk of Necron stuff doesn't enjoy (essentially) twin linked Hellfire rounds being rapid fired then overwatched into their faces either.
> 
> I think I might actually just play my Raven Guard using Ultramarines tactics... But at least I can now field my 30 Scouts for reasons other than "The fluff says I should".


The alternative could be to just play RG using the FW Raptors chapter tactics & get a benefit


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

the_barwn said:


> The alternative could be to just play RG using the FW Raptors chapter tactics & get a benefit


Yeah, Raptors are an option and Lias Issodon is a _really good_ support character which makes their Tactic a lot more tempting than they look at first glance, but I'm still not sure if I think the Raptors tactics are very good - and they still don't help out Scouts very much, or Assault Marines at all, and that's what most Raven Guard players want to see. Correct me if I'm wrong, RG players, but I though their whole schtick was Scouts doing the black ops song and dance being all commando, then massed Assault Marines springing out of nowhere once the Scouts have done their work.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Scouts get the benefit of Concealed without the need for the formation, and Rending Bolters is very synergistic.


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## Woodzee316 (Sep 11, 2010)

just reading over the book now a few things that sprang to mind for my Black Templar army. if I want to use any of the formations I need to lose my crusader squads and take tac with BT chapter tactics. my storm talon which I have just finished can't go anywhere unless I buy one more and a storm raven ( which I had no intention of getting). I think I will tend to lose out using the formations. 
possibly use the strike force command as I always field Grimaldus and the EC.
the only formation I see working really well will be the land raider formation I like the idea of fielding my three crusaders. 
I suppose I could use my Neo's as a 10th company task force but that just takes away the fluff from the army. 
I think it will be the good old CAD with the landraider formation for now. however if they errata the demi to "crusader squads or tactical squads"

I won't be able to get the benefits of the gladius if I want to run my crusader squads, and if i'm reading it right I have to take at least one core choice (which I can't) so I can I can only get benefits from the other squads. I think


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Yeah, BT can't bring the Demi-Company and by extension the Gladius Strike Force, but there's nothing stopping them taking a Combined Arms Detachment plus any of the formations (however, Strike Force Command might not be a formation - I thought it was just additional dudes you could add in a 'miscellaneous' slot).


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