# black templar problems



## arhain (May 6, 2008)

hi all 
i vs this experinced black templar player 
i am using my eldar army (bit of a mix of everything 1 falcon 1 wraithlord 5 harelquins 5 pathfinders etc)
i rarely have no idea how thay work apart from that "if u shoot my friend i am going to come over there and f*** u up":biggrin:
any tactics/hints would be helpful :victory:


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## Juiceypoop (Jun 5, 2008)

Eldar shouldn't have too much trouble with BT. take some mobile fire power units to blow the crap out of his army as it runs across the board towards you (falcons, fire prisms, and vipers come to mind) and then have a couple of anti power armour assault units waiting to make a counter attack when he reaches your lines (howling banchees, harlequins, and shining spears will make minced meat of just about any heavily armoured infantry on the charge). 

so in short. use your mobile shooty things to soften up his army and stay out of range of his own weaponry, and then once he is sufficantly weakened, finish him off with a well timed and devestating assault.


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## rVctn_Khaiyn (Dec 1, 2007)

If you're having trouble with them moving further due to shooting casualties (not saying that you do, but if it is the case), I'd suggest targeting one squad at a time; if you pour shots into a range of units, they'll all be breathing down your neck at once.

If they come in dribs and drabs (since fewer units will get the extra movement due to casualties), then you might even be lucky enough to take them out one by one, as they will reach your lines at different turns.

I might have addressed an issue that wasn't posing a problem, but hopefully it's helpful to someone. :biggrin:


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## chaos vince (Jun 10, 2008)

fight them the same as any other cc army, focus on one squad, blow it away then move to the next. the running foreward actually helps cause it spaces his units out so they don't hit you all at once


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## Saint7515 (Apr 30, 2008)

How big a fight are we talking? 'cause @ 1500 or higher seems to be my strongest time to play; big HQ +15 dudes in a Land Raider Crusader is near impossible to stop; once BT hit 1500 we can support 2x '14armor on all sides death' PLUS one tank. After that, we just keep adding squads of deepstrikers or armored groups of 15 (which, if you haven't noticed, is way too many CCW, even if 5 of them are scouts)

Under 1500, we aren't happy, since we can't put enough squads of dudes in armor, so our worst nightmare is to be caught in enemy fire, 1 or 2 sections at a time.

BT's worst game is @ 750. We are forced to take a 90 point dude plus a vow, AND ANOTHER command unit. kiss, mimimum, 175 points goodbye in close combat HQs! its often more like 200-215. eldar, at range, can seriously mess up 550 points of unsupported templar troops. Eldar, in fast attack mode? I could see you not losing a single unit if you tried...


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## chaos vince (Jun 10, 2008)

hmm... i never have problems with templars in big games usualy 'cause my big guns usualy wreck the tanks early then they get stuck walkin up, against my tsons and guard they're are just too many high ap weapons for them to make it. when i'm playin khorne against them i usualy blast the tanks then shoot one squad to make it run up so i can get the charge. beserkers love tha' charge


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## arhain (May 6, 2008)

yeah i veresed him today 


it turned into a 2 vs 2 game me with some chaos player. 
black templar player with a grey knight player
it was seek and destroy i think (the victory point one)
we one JUST!!
my ally lost heaps, so did the black templar player to a massive combat in the centre (everything that could be thrown into it was:shok::crazy
i sent my halequins in and my wraithlord
we started losing(the grey night player arrived and chuck everything at it) so we withdrew as much as we could (wraithlord, daemon prince, greater daemon and the harlequins) back waited for the last of the deathguard to die (they were there for like 3 turns:mrgreen

before shooting everything at the the mass of god warriors:laugh:


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

yo Arhain aka Darren, its me Hamish, the guy you faced today hahaha. Im the BT player in todays game. and you didnt win, it was a draw! we agreed haha. Still, you should have seen the shit my BT dealt out, it was awesome. But the stupid DH player hung back to long!! It sucks. Jesus, had my tank stayed alive!!!


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## arhain (May 6, 2008)

ahh sorry hamish i was just trying to sound better at the game

yer it was a draw

that grey knight player was a wierdo:fuck:


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

mmm, he was actually. Normally he's alright to play with, he was kinda weird on Sat


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## TheUnmarked (May 19, 2008)

How big a factor did blessed armor play for your land raider? I heard it takes away the Eldar lance weapons ability to reduce all vehicle armor to 12


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

Yea, blessed hull negates the Lance rule eldar love. Armour 14 For The Win!!!

It saved its arse for a turn, allowing it to get the Termies inside closer to the action, and because they reached the combat, none were lost to shooting. Although his weapons did miss, blessed hull has made a diff in earlier battles. I re-arranged my list for this game, removing some neophytes to take the Blessed hull and tank-hunter for my Dread. it, so far, has payed off.


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## arhain (May 6, 2008)

apart from the fact the that the supernought got blown up by my feeble scatterlaser at the beginning of the 1st turn :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Hashulaman (Apr 9, 2008)

I dotn know much about eldar. I have the codex, but I havent played any games with them. against black templars, I dont know if sending banshees, scorpions or harlequins would be a great idea. Maybe I don't place much faith in their frail eldar bodies (I play chaos marines) For some reason though, i think harlequins with their rending, on a charge they could beat BT


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## arhain (May 6, 2008)

yeah my harlies didn't fare that will

(killed nothing for 2 deaths in assualt)


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Playing Eldar involves doing well what the other army does poorly. If you've got a bunch of screaming space nazis (read: Black Templars) running towards you and you have pointy ears, you need to shoot them. A combination of Fire Dragons and Dire Avengers should do the trick-- Dark Reapers work well too, if you don't mind the 200 point price tag for five models.


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

arhain said:


> apart from the fact the that the supernought got blown up by my feeble scatterlaser at the beginning of the 1st turn :laugh::laugh::laugh:


only due to the fact you happened to roll 2 6's in a row for the damage chart when i asked you to re-roll for venerable :ireful2:

normally it kicks ass before losing a weapon. its literally the best surviving unit in my army, it takes so much fire and has survived almost everygame ive played OR made its points back, sometimes twice.

To Hashulaman - his guys did charge, into my termies who took no damage due to some poor rolling on his behalf and great invun saves on mine. Then my lightning claws ripped two of his harlie's apart.

I agree with TSOH, but his firedragons got stuck on the opposite side of my now dead LRC from my Termies, and other BT squads. By this time my entire army was in combat, so no shooting chance for him. In fact by the 3rd turn both infantry units were in combat as well as the termies, who due to charging out of the LRC, couldnt be shot at :victory:


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## Rindaris (Mar 17, 2008)

I've played against a BT army twice. Unfortunately I can't say its a very good player (right Son?). He is definitely CC focused and thinning down his units nullifies any real threat his squads present. Last time I played against him his army didn't even make it half way across the table. Much love to my SM Gunline army


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## Genki (Jun 17, 2008)

Rindaris said:


> I've played against a BT army twice. Unfortunately I can't say its a very good player (right Son?). He is definitely CC focused and thinning down his units nullifies any real threat his squads present. Last time I played against him his army didn't even make it half way across the table. Much love to my SM Gunline army


Sounds like my friends BT army until he invested in a Land Raider. 

I was too busy trying to take that down I gave him oppurtunity to chew through my troops.


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## chaos vince (Jun 10, 2008)

land raiders tend to draw a lot of fire, but i still haven't had one make up its points. now as a delivery system for a really nasy character there's very few equals to this awesome tank.


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## Rindaris (Mar 17, 2008)

Genki said:


> Sounds like my friends BT army until he invested in a Land Raider.
> 
> I was too busy trying to take that down I gave him oppurtunity to chew through my troops.


He had 2 Land Raiders.....


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## Genki (Jun 17, 2008)

Rindaris said:


> He had 2 Land Raiders.....


Either he didnt utilise them well or I was a complete numpty to be suckered in by my friend. I think its the latter. :victory:


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## Rindaris (Mar 17, 2008)

Nah, I just run a heavy shooty SM army. And we played long ways on the table, so he had to cover a considerable distance to get to me. So my Tank Hunter devs made short work of his LRs.. and it helped that on both of them AND his Dread I got Pen's of 6s....


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## Engelus (Jul 26, 2007)

as a Black Templar army, the army I fear most is Eldar, because if used properly, at any points value they can always outclass me at both Shooting and close combat in the same game.

bring an avatar, theres not much he can do against it, also some wraithlords, lastly, bring a full harlie squad, and some howling banshees. add 2 fireprisms and a wave serpant.
if you can afford it bring that character that can use 3 psycher powers in one turn, and you're set.

you're faster than him, you've got more power weapons than him, and you are more shooty than him.


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

bastard engelus, you traitor, giving the enemy ideas 

so now tell me engelus, how do i counter your suggestion :biggrin:


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## SpaNNerZ (Jun 17, 2008)

lol
for the eldar player...
I'm a khorne veteran and the worst thing is vypers and landspeeders getting behind and you having to move to them.
the key to the BT rule is they have to move to the closest unit not the one that shot them up
so run a Vyper behind, star engines will help nicely and sit it their for the first turn dont worry about shooting with it just get it in behind the templars and shoot till your hearts content, because every move they make forward is countered when you shoot them as they will run backwards to your vyper and trust me its a pet peeve of mine with the old khorne rules 6" forward, 4" back:angry:grrrrrrr
also with your Harlequins although they are monsters in combat, they arent built for prolonged combat, like most eldar they rely on the charge to break the enemy with their high iniative, this is my min issue with Harlies, one of the main reasons I mostly dont take them and for cheaper I find Banshees do about the same and with the war shout exarch ability it will cripple most enemys for the first round of combat.
hope this helps 

peace out:victory:


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## arhain (May 6, 2008)

sweet ideas thanks alot


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

SpaNNerZ said:


> lol
> for the eldar player...
> I'm a khorne veteran and the worst thing is vypers and landspeeders getting behind and you having to move to them.
> the key to the BT rule is they have to move to the closest unit not the one that shot them up
> ...


sorry buddy, only one of my troops has to do the whole "run to nearest enemy" because my other troops and my termies both have chappyies with them, negating that rule AND allowing me to re-roll RZ and to-hit rolls(when charging) :biggrin:

curse you and the rest of your good advice :ireful2:


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## SpaNNerZ (Jun 17, 2008)

DAMMIT:threaten::shok::laugh:
I had always assumed that it worked, I've never actually bothered to read the Black Templars codex, guess thats what I get, but hey I can still do it to the rest of your army and if your going to take chaplains, Mindwar away my friend, Mindwar away.... 
also D-Cannons are alot of fun against SM's.:biggrin:

@Ordo Xeno Commander: and I apoligize for my good advice, it's not necessarily advice it's first hand experience with Khorne, wish we once had something like that, would make games alot more fun.

peace out:victory:


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## Genki (Jun 17, 2008)

Whilst people are handing out good advice. Any suggestions for taking on BT as the Imperial Guard? 

My tactic so far is running and hiding in the corner....


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## SpaNNerZ (Jun 17, 2008)

Genki said:


> Whilst people are handing out good advice. Any suggestions for taking on BT as the Imperial Guard?
> 
> My tactic so far is running and hiding in the corner....


Ahhhh what guard do best 
lol
The only ways I know with guard is with lots of armour
Leman Russ's hurt when you drop a S8 AP3 ordnance on SM 
lol fun fun

peace out:victory:


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

and its not so great when every single one of my squads has an anti-tank weapon in it plus my super-dread. STR 10 LC and STR 9 ML when attacking vehicles FTW!!! Its even more fun when my termies and LRC get nice and close to your lines :biggrin:


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## arhain (May 6, 2008)

> plus my super-dread. STR 10 LC and STR 9 ML when attacking vehicles FTW!!!


yer but all you need is 1 puny scatter laser:laugh:


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## SpaNNerZ (Jun 17, 2008)

Ordo Xeno Commander said:


> and its not so great when every single one of my squads has an anti-tank weapon in it plus my super-dread. STR 10 LC and STR 9 ML when attacking vehicles FTW!!! Its even more fun when my termies and LRC get nice and close to your lines :biggrin:


Okay you go for that waste all your shooting, on a potential lucky shot with a missile launcher or lascannon, but you shoot heavy weapons you cant move and if your talkin meltas well the meat shield of guard at 12 inches in front of the tanks helps somethin mighty with that:biggrin:

peace out:victory:


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## Genki (Jun 17, 2008)

Ive been told that Terminators and lightning hammers (im a newb so correct meif I get this wrong) are quite painful for tanks? Its worrying seeing as I play IG and I like my tanks!

Would a Demolisher with Plasma sponsons be of use or should I give up and just try tank shocking them for sheer amusement?


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## SpaNNerZ (Jun 17, 2008)

lol 
You mean Thunder Hammers, and yeh they can be painful to tanks, but their nothin to constantly run away from, you have to remember to kepp the tanks moving, move more than 6" then can only hit on 6's so gives them a hard time. 
For Leman Russ's though I dont think moving more than 6" is a great idea.
Demolishers are hilarious to drop on Terminators, and Plasma on tanks is the bet kind of plasma cause it cant hurt you.

Tank shocking is the best invention in the game, in my view anyway, so yeh go for it although read the rule book to find what you can/should and cant/shouldn't do, a tank can actually run over a dreadnaught with the right amount of armour, but yeh story for another day.

peace out:victory:


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## chaos vince (Jun 10, 2008)

it isn't that hard for guard to take on bt or termis, usualy light infantry and crap-tons of plasma works just fine. line your boys up at 21-24 inches away and plaster 'em. even troops in rhinos get creamed:victory:just back up the sneaky boys with tanks and heavy weapons teams/special weapons teams attached to your command platoon


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

SpaNNerZ said:


> Okay you go for that waste all your shooting, on a potential lucky shot with a missile launcher or lascannon, but you shoot heavy weapons you cant move and if your talkin meltas well the meat shield of guard at 12 inches in front of the tanks helps somethin mighty with that:biggrin:
> 
> peace out:victory:


no heavy weapons in my squads. and meat shield of guard, pfft, i laugh at your 5+ armour save with my insane amount of attacks with re-rolls to hit on a 3+ depending on which vow i take:biggrin:

oh, and the reason my dread is a super-dread is simply because its been so lucky wth killing stuff and not dying, except for the stupid occasion when SOMEONE rolls 2 6's in a row for my ven-roll:fuck::ireful2:


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## SpaNNerZ (Jun 17, 2008)

Howmany points do you sink into that dreadie of yours
Venerable, Tankhunter, Lascannon, Missile Launcher, waste of points in my opinion.

peace out:victory:


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

lol, quite a few, then the other point sink is my termies, chap, LRC combo, but in my experience, its been worth it 90% of the time :biggrin:


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## PanzerPig (Apr 15, 2008)

I have to say i find having a few units you rely on to be a somewhat risky tactic, i prefer to soread my points and unit flexibility.

Now as eldar, you really do have 2 paths, shooty or cc, personally i find pathfinders and wraithlords (with an avatar) will be quite good, pathfinders really can cut thru marines and use lances and any other good eldar heavy wpes to bring down the tanks, and while LCR's are good they are also a massive point sink, if anyones bringing two of them they haven't got much else so feel free to concentrate your fire.


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## Hashulaman (Apr 9, 2008)

Send an avatar or some wraithlords straight at the BT armies, they will try to take it out first. Well the BT players ive seen. That should hold them up for a little while.


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## Vanchet (Feb 28, 2008)

Like everyone else has said-focus fire squad at a time (don't forget-templars when doing Rightgeous Zeal, without a chaplain they HAVE to move to the cloeset target they can find).


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## Hashulaman (Apr 9, 2008)

I would counter with berserkers. BT versus Khorne, Khorne wins because a squad of khrone marines will have 30 percent more attacks than a BT squad of the same size. Possesed work ok too, but i prefer furious charge.


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## SpaNNerZ (Jun 17, 2008)

@Hashulaman: Yeh dude KB's would be great to counter with, *IF* they get the charge other wise it mainly comes down to great dice rolls, sure theres the extra WS and attacks but sometimes that doesn't cut it, I'd much rather possessed preferably with either power weapons rending or furious charge

peace out:victory:


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

That's all well and good, but Eldar don't have Khorne Berserkers or possessed Chaos Space Marines at their disposal. The thread's really about how to beat Black Templars with Eldar, if you read the back posts.

I'd look into getting some Fire Dragons. They're obnoxiously good, and a Black Templar army will bring themselves into range of the Fire Dragons' meltaguns. A combination of bladestorming Dire Avenger squads (who can follow up with a charge, if need be) and Fire Dragons' fusion guns will do unspeakable things to Space Marines. A Farseer casting Doom and Guide makes sure the firepower hits home. For some added long-range oomph, Dark Reapers and/or War Walkers with Eldar Missile Launchers, Bright Lances, or Starcannons to clear out those big Crusader squads.

If you're getting rushed by an armoured thrust, Vypers with either an Eldar Missile Launcher or Bright Lance can swing around to the side or rear of an enemy vehicle and open it up so your Dire Avengers can shred them. You'll need the Bright Lance to deal with a Land Raider, but otherwise, the EML should suffice. Shining Spears can fill a similar role and also provide some close combat support, if you prefer that route.

Righteous Zeal is pesky sometimes, but you can more or less lead squads on with it. Units of Guardians, which are relatively inexpensive as Eldar units go, can use their weapons platform to zap a Templar. The Templars only get one Righteous Zeal move per turn, and it's towards whoever inflicted that first casualty. You can use that to pull the Templars away from other units, so you can either isolate Crusader Squads, or you can draw them onto the guns of Fire Dragons and Dire Avengers. 

I'd leave the snipers at home, incidentally... they're a static unit, and the Black Templars WILL figure out a way to get to grips with them. Better to use your points on things that actually can redeploy easily, like Dire Avengers, for your Troops choices.


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## arhain (May 6, 2008)

> You'll need the Bright Lance to deal with a Land Raider,


he has blessed hull on his landraider
and the land raider seems to be the centre of his army


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## Saint7515 (Apr 30, 2008)

Land Raiders and LRCrusaders come with Blessed Hull and Extra Armor AND PotMS.
Really (as I found out yesterday, getting whooped by said xenos), the best way to beat BT with Eldar are to leave a unit in the middle of the field (Avatar, Lances, anything that THEY want to charge given the opportunity) and let them charge it out of a LR or LRC. Screen with Harliquins/Scorpions and Fire Dragons in transports; drop said units out of transports, move said transports, charge the BT. Even IF the sacrificial unit dies, the dudes they pile out of the Land raider all die to the Harlies' on the Templar player's turn, letting you get shots in via the Dragons and letting the harlies get back to a transport OR into another CC before the Crusader/base LR gets a chance to fire at any of the 2/3 groups left. 11/16 dudes + LR/LRC dead? BT player loses hope around then.


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

but what happens when the rest of the BT army charges into that force with, well, plenty of attacks and the good old nigh-on-invincible Grimaldus and the Emp's champ?


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## Saint7515 (Apr 30, 2008)

well, since I was @ 1000 pts, the champ was in the charging force, I couldn't take grimaldus, and my chappy with jumps squad and little squad of 5 got picked apart on their march towards the melee. My partner tried to help, but footslogging kept him from doing much. If the pts were much higher, then yes, the G-man and squad + Predetor back-up could clean house on the charge, no matter how many rangers he had.

So, what I'm trying to say is:
BT < 1000 = bad.
BT = 1000 = kinda tricky to win with
1500 > BT >1000 = can win
BT > 1500 = death to the enemies of the Emperor.

I feel so very invincible with 1 LRC, 1 LR, 1 Pred Ann, 1 Pred. Des. 1 pimped out HQ w/ squad in LR, 1 Accpt. Any challenge Champ w/ squad in LRC. Nonthing stops that kind of firepower OR melee @ 1500. Go to 1750, replace HQ with Special character and add Jump troops w/ meltabombs. SOOOOO good. Less than that, I feel vulnerable.


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

actually, thats a nice list, might be tempted to change... but i want grimaldus, he's too uber to give up.


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