# *SPOILERS* New fluff on the Grey Knights



## Engindeer

Just got hold of an advance copy of the upcoming Codex: Grey Knights. It's blurry yet readable, with scarce pictures, but the rules and subsequent fluff are all there.

Reading through the whole thing, three things struck me as being really interesting for fluff-addicts like myself.

*SPOILERS from here*


*Justicar Anval Thawn*

Without explanation, this eternal warrior has died countless times to the daemons of chaos, and each time he has been resurrected days, hours or even minutes after being slain, healing completely from any physical injury as well. The librarians of The Grey Knights have fruitlessly tried Thawn for daemonic corruption, finding no taint whatsoever. Hence he is once again drawn to battle, forever untill the end of time.


*Lord Kaldor Draigo, Supreme Grand Master of The Grey Knights*

Being both famed and cursed upon his first dealing with the daemon prince M'kar The Reborn, Draigo was yanked into the warp by the out-phasing M'kar on their second meeting. For untold time he has wandered the Realms of Chaos slaying daemons and traitors alike. No foe has ever had the best of him, and now only the most crazed Khornate followers will knowingly oppose him. But in the impossible Realms of Chaos, Draigo is himself an impossiblity. He can never restore order, and every time his zeal has destroyed legions of daemonic followers, they will always return.

Recently he has experienced being drawn from the warp as any other daemonic creature, through the sorceries of corrupted psykers, and several times has he been reunited with The Grey Knights. Fighting alongside his brethren untill his eventual departure back into the warp like the daemons they slay.

NB!: The previous *Supreme Grand Master*, Janus, is mentioned several times in the Codex, as well as in Draigos entry. Janus was slain by the Daemon Primarch Mortarion, whereafter the enraged Draigo cut Janus' name into Mortarions rotten heart, an insult the Daemon Primarch has never forgotten. (It doesn't say how he gained access to his heart)


*Inquisitorial henchman: Jokaero Weaponsmith*

Yep, we finally get rules for the little-seen Jokaero race! (Which means they will be a bigger part of the fluff).

With no changes to their background, they are still heavyset, orange-furred space apes with a passing resemblance to the orangutans of ancient Terra. They are described as unpredictable in their work ethics, as they, like ork meks, get inspired in their work, rather than having an overall plan. Hence, should they choose to fickle with a lasgun it might be turned into a much more formidable weapon, or may simply undergo some purely cosmetic changes.


The whole thing is a bit Matt Ward-esque. I think Draigo is the worst example, being able to stay incorruptible in The Realms of Chaos and phasing in and out of reality like the daemons themselves. Oh yeah, and that he OWNED Mortarion :no:

Hope you enjoy!


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## Sacred Feth

Sounds a bit too ridiculous to me...


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## Khorne's Fist

Sacred Feth said:


> Sounds a bit too ridiculous to me...


Seconded.


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## Engindeer

Hmm so I take it, that you guys are not interesting in hearing about:

*The Dread Knight*

A massive mecha-esque walker, intended to combat Greater Daemons 1v1. The pilot is an honored hero of the Grey Knights, and the Mechanicus suspects its origins to be entirely alien.

Brought to you from Transformers by Matt Ward.


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## Angel of Blood

I thought "killed by mortarion? That's pretty cool, good to see a deanon primarch get a mention in recent times, and then I read the bit about the heart and it all went even more downhill


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## Stella Cadente

*yawn* same old same old, guy who can't die, guy who can't be corrupted, orange monkey...ok maybe a little different and optimus dreadknight, BORING (and the only word matt ward knows).


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## Deus Mortis

Engindeer said:


> *Lord Kaldor Draigo, Supreme Grand Master of The Grey Knights*
> 
> Being both famed and cursed upon his first dealing with the daemon prince M'kar The Reborn, Draigo was yanked into the warp by the out-phasing M'kar on their second meeting. For untold time he has wandered the Realms of Chaos slaying daemons and traitors alike. No foe has ever had the best of him, and now only the most crazed Khornate followers will knowingly oppose him. But in the impossible Realms of Chaos, Draigo is himself an impossiblity. He can never restore order, and every time his zeal has destroyed legions of daemonic followers, they will always return.
> 
> Recently he has experienced being drawn from the warp as any other daemonic creature, through the sorceries of corrupted psykers, and several times has he been reunited with The Grey Knights. Fighting alongside his brethren untill his eventual departure back into the warp like the daemons they slay.


Errmmm...what? The highlighted bits stand out the most "Wait..what?!" worthy of all of that. Two queries:

1. How can a material being such as a human (albeit, Astartes) withstand being in the warp? The warp has no natural dimensions, the laws of physics mean nothing. Force? Worthless. Atoms? Playthings. Cellular structures? Ha, get real. The only reason ships aren't torn apart by the sheer random chaos of it all is because of their Gellar fields, and even these can buckle under the supreme strain of the crashing tides of the warp. How does one lonely Astartes not get torn to pieces in seconds?

2. He can be summoned! Even if he could have survived in the warp, how does he get accidentally summoned by corrupt sorceries? From what you read in the Chaos Daemons codex, it would appear that when a warp rift is being opened for daemons to pour through, the daemons congregate on the other side, waiting to be loosed on the material universe.

I can't really imagine Draigo standing shoulder to shoulder with a bloodcrusher listening to how it's Khorne's "Time of the millennia", exchanging psychic tips with a herald of Tzeentch and gossiping with a seeker about who is Slaanesh's latest sex-toy.

If nothing else, I'm not seeing that part, if any, of Lord Kaldor Draigo (if that is his real name) being legit.


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## Protoss119

/tg/ leaked some of the pages from the WIP Codex, therein causing much raeg - especially concerning Draigo. Again, the pages are blurry, but Draigo is depicted as having massive amounts of plot armor, getting sent into the warp by M'kar and destroying tons of daemons in there, killing a Bloodthirster and using the remains of its shattered axe to reforge his sword, burying M'kachen in tons of rock when he tried to tempt him (you'd think the Daemons would know better, but Ward disagrees) and setting fire to the Garden of Nurgle.

Just to put this in perspective, it took 100 Grey Knight Termies to banish Angron and his daemonic host, and only one (Aurelian) survived, but Draigo apparently managed to fight and win all across the Warp for an unprecedented amount of time, considering the way time runs in the warp. And according to Matt Ward, he is so super-godly-awesome that daemons became scared of him. If that's not plot-armor, I don't know what is.

Sure, there's a modicum of tragedy behind being trapped in the warp forever and being released into the material world a couple times before being drawn back again, but the question remains: _why in teh God-Emprah's nehm is he not dead yet?!_ The presence of copious amounts of plot armor nullifies whatever tragedy there is and brings it right back to stupidity.

Still, the codex isn't being released until around April, so we'll just have to trust Alan Merrett to do the right thing.


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## Deus Mortis

Protoss119 said:


> Still, the codex isn't being released until around April, so we'll just have to trust Alan Merrett to do the right thing.


Burn the fluff, kill Matt Ward and start all over again?


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## Gree

i've read the leaked document and I can confirm all of the above. You thought the 5th edition Marine codex's fluff was bad? That pales in comparison to the new GK stuff.

Appearantly Terminators form the core of Grey Knight armies, with Grey Knights in power armor performing specialist roles now.


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## Engindeer

Matt Ward works in mysterious ways.

The awesome-sauce of the main character's are offset by a perputual, universal melancholy, as to make things a bit more grimdark.

In codex Blood Angels, Dante, the awesomest chapter master ever, is tired of fighting and has trouble seeing purpose in continuing his duty.

Kaldor Draigo is also melancholic, because he knows that it is an eternal fight he has to keep up, and that chaos will eventually conquer The Imperium. That is 'the truth' he has witnessed.

Inquisitor Lord Coteaz is tragic as well, because he knows that he can't extend his life forever and with no heir, he is forced to seek out means to prolong his life. Often those means are daemonic in nature, and he wonders how long he can resist the lure of chaos: It is implied that it may not be forever.

And last but not least, the mainstream mention that there has been discovered failures in The Golden Throne...

Alas it is all poor writing so shame on you Matt Ward!


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## Angel of Blood

Protoss119 said:


> Just to put this in perspective, it took 100 Grey Knight Termies to banish Angron and his daemonic host, and only one (Aurelian) survived
> .


Aurelian died actually, only a handfull of nameless Knights survived though. Your point still stands though, load of shit


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Sounds like utter horseshit.

EDIT: From our News and Rumours section:



MadCowCrazy said:


> GK fluff. Yes I have a bit I can share. As for their Origins, well.. Let's just say that their geneseed is of a... Traitorous Fusion...? Hehehe. Suffice to say you're welcome to guess all of you, and if you get it, i'll confirm it. But this is just too good for me to outright say.. Heh.
> -They seem to be the Guardians of a boatload of hidden Chaos stuff within Segmentum Solar and the Sol System. It almost seems like the Emperor is one of those guys you see on American Pickers but for Chaos junk, and he keeps it all on his front lawn. Poor Grey Knights have to keep it all locked up.


That is the kind of stuff which is interesting, invincible mortals wondering through the warp killing every single daemon in sight and trashing the realms of the chaos gods is just utter shit. Matt Ward needs to sort his head out.


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## Gree

Engindeer said:


> Kaldor Draigo is also melancholic, because he knows that it is an eternal fight he has to keep up, and that chaos will eventually conquer The Imperium. That is 'the truth' he has witnessed.


I would like Driago better if he did't kill a daemon prince in his first combat action. Then carve his name into the heart of a Daemon Primarch later on. Then single-handedly hold off a daemonic horde for two days to cover the retreat of a Guard regiment. Kill a Daemon Prince with a broken sword. Kill one of Khorne's Greatest Bloodthirsters. (Bare-handed assumedly) then reforge said Bloodthirsters axe into a new sword using his own fire. Then set fire to Nurgle's garden. And then kill Slaanesh's six chosen Daemonettes. And then smash the city walls of the Inevitable city singlehandedly and pwn yet another greater daemon. And then travel for centuries in the warp slaying countless daemons.


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## Engindeer

Gree said:


> I would like Driago better if he did't kill a daemon prince in his first combat action. Then carve his name into the heart of a Daemon Primarch later on. Then single-handedly hold off a daemonic horde for two days to cover the retreat of a Guard regiment. Kill a Daemon Prince with a broken sword. Kill one of Khorne's Greatest Bloodthirsters. (Bare-handed assumedly) then reforge said Bloodthirsters axe into a new sword using his own fire. Then set fire to Nurgle's garden. And then kill Slaanesh's six chosen Daemonettes. And then smash the city walls of the Inevitable city singlehandedly and pwn yet another greater daemon. And then travel for centuries in the warp slaying countless daemons.


 
At least he is a SUPREME GRAND MASTER, which probably makes him one of, if not the most capable warrior in The Imperium. Ward doesn't consider that in his rabid fanboyistic writing for the special characters, makes the Primarchs seem like wimps, and every other mook is just along for the ride i.e. their deaths.

Ward was probably brought up with superhero comic books as a child, moreso than Dungeons & Dragons like the other guys at GW.

To sum up: 40k fluff shouldn't be THAT character-centric


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## increaso

Gree said:


> I would like Driago better if he did't kill a daemon prince in his first combat action. Then carve his name into the heart of a Daemon Primarch later on. Then single-handedly hold off a daemonic horde for two days to cover the retreat of a Guard regiment. Kill a Daemon Prince with a broken sword. Kill one of Khorne's Greatest Bloodthirsters. (Bare-handed assumedly) then reforge said Bloodthirsters axe into a new sword using his own fire. Then set fire to Nurgle's garden. And then kill Slaanesh's six chosen Daemonettes. And then smash the city walls of the Inevitable city singlehandedly and pwn yet another greater daemon. And then travel for centuries in the warp slaying countless daemons.


You're too picky 

I heard that Driago also INSISTS on paying for the meal.

But in all seriousness it's hard to accept that a space marine (even a super duper Grey Knight) can carry out feats equal to or greater than those of the Primarchs.


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## Vaz

This sounds shit.


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## godzy

there are a few mentions (this guy, the terminator upgraded character) that give me the "sensai" feeling. one was waiting for them, (dalai lama style) unafraid in the black ships. returning from the dead time and time again.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord

This fluff sounds like a pile of poo-poo pancakes. Doesn't GW get a bunch of veteran 40k players to read through draft codices, to weed out obvious fanboyism and other problems?


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## Chompy Bits

Ward wrote this? What, is he playing Grey Knights now?

Really, this is truly some of the most ridiculous fluff I've encountered in quite some time.


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## Stella Cadente

Gree said:


> Appearantly Terminators form the core of Grey Knight armies, with Grey Knights in power armor performing specialist roles now.


to translate into GW terms
"the 5 models in this £100 plastic box set will form the core of your army, so you'll want lots of them, the 1 model in this £15 blister performs specialist roles, you don't need as many, maybe only 10-15 models instead...bargain"


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## piemelke

so fckng cool, I love it already


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## Stella Cadente

I suppose somebody has to...though I can think of 1 other.


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## Scholtae

This is an abommination and should be burned, please tell me somone sensible will step in and change this crap that cannot be called fluff.


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## Stella Cadente

Scholtae said:


> This is an abommination and should be burned, please tell me somone sensible will step in and change this crap that cannot be called fluff.


*in flies jervis johnson*
oh shit.


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## Scholtae

Question, If matt Ward is so detested how does he still have a job wt GW?


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## Stella Cadente

Scholtae said:


> Question, If matt Ward is so detested how does he still have a job wt GW?


he might be the only person left in GW, along with jervis after all we rarely hear about anyone else.


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## Khorne's Fist

Scholtae said:


> This is an abommination and should be burned, please tell me somone sensible will step in and change this crap that cannot be called fluff.


I have to say I had got a sinking feeling when I first saw the leaked photos of that fucking ridiculous looking dread knight. If they could take that model seriously, they surely would have no problem with publishing something that would be sneered at if it appeared as a piece of fanfic in the homebrew fluff section of these boards.

But, once again GW seem intent on ignoring the vast horde of fans that they think will spend their hard earned cash regardless. And they are right, unfortunately.


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## cragnes417

not talk crap to the dread knight but it looks like they combined there chapters dreadies to form it like voltron/megazordish way


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## LunaticStrain

I personally like the idea of Driago stuck in the warp, battling forever and getting summoned. To those who don't like it, I have a few points to clear up:

1. He can't survive unprotected in the Immaterium, even ships get destroyed.

That's true, but he is also the Emperor's Supreme Demon Slayer, the top of the entire order designed to fight Chaos for the Emperor. Perhaps, having been pulled into the warp in a weird way he became part 'demon', with his patron god being the Emperor, whether he knows it or not.

2. He shouldn't be accidentally summoned, as a summoning creates a portal, and demons stand on the other side waiting to get through.

True, and he's all that comes through. Given what we know about him, perhaps he shows up to kill some demon ass, kills all the demons waiting, then goes through himself.

3. He kills hundreds of demons and even carved his name into the heart of a demon primarch.

He IS the best Grey Knight, and if I am right he is also infused with a 'demon' like level of power from the Emperor, the very thing Demon's detest the most. Given that, I don't see it as entirely implausible that he would be able to best these odds. Holding off armies of demons, that's silly. Taking a demon primarch to his knees, when he is basically the equivalent, well that's not so far fetched.

Basically it's a little hard to swallow, unless we see him as the Emperor's first 'demon', using his great power to keep the body and soul of one of his most powerful follower alive. Add to this the fact that the Golden Throne is showing 'flaws' and it all screams the Emperor is about to burst forth into the Warp in a big bad way, and perhaps the dead Grey Knights and other Astartes will be summonable the same way demons are, while they wait for the final battle in the immaterium.

Just some fanboy stuff, but I'm enjoying it so far. Would I prefer they didn't basically make him a god? Yeah, but it's not terrible.


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## Vaz

Mine and X to the Z-ibit's thoughts on the matter.


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## Angel of Blood

LunaticStrain said:


> I personally like the idea of Driago stuck in the warp, battling forever and getting summoned. To those who don't like it, I have a few points to clear up:
> 
> 1. He can't survive unprotected in the Immaterium, even ships get destroyed.
> 
> That's true, but he is also the Emperor's Supreme Demon Slayer, the top of the entire order designed to fight Chaos for the Emperor. Perhaps, having been pulled into the warp in a weird way he became part 'demon', with his patron god being the Emperor, whether he knows it or not.
> 
> 2. He shouldn't be accidentally summoned, as a summoning creates a portal, and demons stand on the other side waiting to get through.
> 
> True, and he's all that comes through. Given what we know about him, perhaps he shows up to kill some demon ass, kills all the demons waiting, then goes through himself.
> 
> 3. He kills hundreds of demons and even carved his name into the heart of a demon primarch.
> 
> He IS the best Grey Knight, and if I am right he is also infused with a 'demon' like level of power from the Emperor, the very thing Demon's detest the most. Given that, I don't see it as entirely implausible that he would be able to best these odds. Holding off armies of demons, that's silly. Taking a demon primarch to his knees, when he is basically the equivalent, well that's not so far fetched.
> 
> Basically it's a little hard to swallow, unless we see him as the Emperor's first 'demon', using his great power to keep the body and soul of one of his most powerful follower alive. Add to this the fact that the Golden Throne is showing 'flaws' and it all screams the Emperor is about to burst forth into the Warp in a big bad way, and perhaps the dead Grey Knights and other Astartes will be summonable the same way demons are, while they wait for the final battle in the immaterium.
> 
> Just some fanboy stuff, but I'm enjoying it so far. Would I prefer they didn't basically make him a god? Yeah, but it's not terrible.


Jesus it's Matt Ward, either that or you have a malignent tumour in your brain somewhere.


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## Vaz

Play nice AoB. The innocence of Fresh Meat is always nice to see =(.


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## LunaticStrain

Haha it's ok, I know I'm in the minority here. I think, if taken by itself it's a terrible bit of fluff. If they continue and make the Emperor a god within the year, then it's a good bit of fluff.

I just like fluff.


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## Brother Arnold

Hey, lighten up. Sure, it may be the biggest load of fanboyist writing since Mat Ward released a special extended fluff edition of the SM codex at he Ultrasmurf fanboy convention, but at least there won't be anything about GK teaming up with Tyranids (one of the few forces that would stand a chance against the GK seeing as it's Mat Ward we're talking about here) at the start of a campaign against them to fight a large-ish Daemon incursion, which leaves the Nids too depleted to be a big threat to the GK anymore when they're done.

2 months later

Oh shit... Me and my big mouth...


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## MontytheMighty

I'm a huge Grey Knights fan...I've touted them as literally the finest warriors the Imperium has to offer, a league above even the adeptus custodes, but this fluff sounds like utter shit even to me...it's too overblown even for even a diehard GK fanboy such as myself

an eternal warrior wandering through the warp? can we have a bit of realism please? I know 40k is fantasy sci-fi, but could we not cross the line into the ridiculous 

and what is a Supreme Grandmaster? I liked it when grandmasters were the highest rank...now it seems GK have a chapter master like everyone else


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## ckcrawford

This is some fucked up shit.


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## Baron Spikey

The GK fluff saysDraigo carved his predecessors name into Mortarion's heart- what it doesn't say is how many Grey Knights it took to bring down the Daemon Primarch, it certainly doesn't say that Draigo did it alone.

We know that Mortals can walk the realm of Chaos without using a Geller field, it says as much in the Chaos Daemon Codex with mortal champions having to quest across Khorne's realm in order to secure themselves a Juggernaught or Slaanesh's realm to gain a Seeker etc. Chaos Space Marines, especially the Word Bearers, don't always sail the empyrean with their Geller fields activated either.


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## Chompy Bits

Draigo feats yet to be added to the codex:

He beat Angron at arm wrestling.
He beat Magnus at Scrabble.
He beat Fulgrim at soggy biscuit.


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## Erzbrecht

cant help. but so much of the character fluff seems like bad fanfic that i want to call it fake.

that story of aurellian banishing angron was a perfect. it gave a pretty good feeling of how dire the situation is when the grey knights are called. that draigo story on the contrary takes away that "of shit this is the worst" mysticism of chaos. i mean you cant tell me that guy can take on a few greater demons alone in the chaos realm when you have a few pages earlier written that you need a dreadknight to go 1on1 with one of these.

if this is REALLY part of the final release matt ward becomes for the grey knights what joel schumacher became for batman.


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## Engindeer

Baron Spikey said:


> The GK fluff saysDraigo carved his predecessors name into Mortarion's heart- what it doesn't say is how many Grey Knights it took to bring down the Daemon Primarch, it certainly doesn't say that Draigo did it alone.
> 
> We know that Mortals can walk the realm of Chaos without using a Geller field, it says as much in the Chaos Daemon Codex with mortal champions having to quest across Khorne's realm in order to secure themselves a Juggernaught or Slaanesh's realm to gain a Seeker etc. Chaos Space Marines, especially the Word Bearers, don't always sail the empyrean with their Geller fields activated either.


If you don't oppose chaos you are free to walk the Realms, as the daemons probably take little interest in you. I don't believe that's the case with Draigo.

It would be sad If we had to take things that are reserved for other parts of 40k to explain cases disaster cases like Draigo! - Geller Fields - They're HUGE and for large Imperial vessels, smaller ships can't travel in the warp because they can't accomodate room for a warp engine + geller fields.

So this guy just happens to lug around a personal Geller Field (Something I don't think CAN exist), just in case he'd get pulled into the warp?

This fluff just ruins so many other fine aspects of 40k...

Now what about Eldar Warp Spiders who are described as insane enough to visit the Warp for split-seconds at a time and every time they risk the wrath of the daemonic inhabitants living there.

Everything would be fine if they just made Draigo an ambigous side story like other farcry stuff. 

This guy shouldn't be put on the FREAKING tabletop, makes his fluff 100% accurate and true.

OT: My 100th post


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## gothik

ok so i second AOBs comment about mortarion appearing but then the whole carved a name into his rotten heart thing??? um sounds a hell of a load of mumbo jumbo to me i mean i know the grey knights are incorruptable as they are, at this current moment in time but wondering the realms of chaos phasing in and out of reality....umm...ok i'll just go play fallout three give it some thought and see if it comes back into any semblance of this makes sense....


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## Vaz

Chompy Bits said:


> Draigo feats yet to be added to the codex:
> 
> He beat Angron at arm wrestling.


He cheated =(


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## Engindeer

Am I the only one worrying about the way fluff is developing? 

I was positively surprised by the quality of the Dark Eldar. We also get more and more fluff on other alien species and so far it has kept a good standard - Tau are turning increasingly grimdark, because they have failed so ultimately with their ideas of peaceful negotiation, and necrons are just being more fleshed out in general. 

It seems that only Chaos and The Imperium is going down the drain... Even though it's not 40k in the strictest sense I enjoy reading Dark Heresy from FFG. It assures me that incredible fluff can still be created in the spirit of the universe, on which 40k is based


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## Angelus Censura

I'd like to know if these are playable characters or just some fluff added to the codex. I hope Draigo isn't playable, sounds like he could whip out his junk and slay my entire army single handed with special rules such as *Super Duper Cool Guy Daemon Slayer* - _Upon taking Draigo as an HQ unit in your army, all units within 48" hit and wound on a 1+ when fighting Chaos, if they happen to miss, they may re-roll all to hit and to wound rolls. After which, they proceed to tea bag all dead enemy units_


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## Engindeer

Angelus Censura said:


> I'd like to know if these are playable characters or just some fluff added to the codex. I hope Draigo isn't playable, sounds like he could whip out his junk and slay my entire army single handed.


They are all playable *pukes*


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## vulcan539

Hmmmm I could write better fluff..... O well just another imperium money maker for GW.

But I hope that someone steps in and fixes this in the next couple of months.


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## Stella Cadente

I wonder how many times the grey knights will be saved by ultramarines as well


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## normtheunsavoury

That will be in the next SM dex.
"Out manned and out gunned by two Ratling Snipers, the Grey knights called upon the might super dooper, mega hard, invincible totally bad ass Ultramarines for help. After the battle the Ultramarines taught the Grey Knights how to be better warriors and said they could take some Ultramarine scouts as mentors to keep them safe in times of need.
The Grey Knights were so pleased they instantly elevated these scouts to the rank of Grand Master for their sheer awesomeness!!!!!"


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## LunaticStrain

normtheunsavoury said:


> That will be in the next SM dex.
> "Out manned and out gunned by two Ratling Snipers, the Grey knights called upon the might super dooper, mega hard, invincible totally bad ass Ultramarines for help. After the battle the Ultramarines taught the Grey Knights how to be better warriors and said they could take some Ultramarine scouts as mentors to keep them safe in times of need.
> The Grey Knights were so pleased they instantly elevated these scouts to the rank of Grand Master for their sheer awesomeness!!!!!"


And thus Draigo became a Grey Knight.


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## Stella Cadente

normtheunsavoury said:


> That will be in the next SM dex.
> "Out manned and out gunned by two Ratling Snipers, the Grey knights called upon the might super dooper, mega hard, invincible totally bad ass Ultramarines for help. After the battle the Ultramarines taught the Grey Knights how to be better warriors and said they could take some Ultramarine scouts as mentors to keep them safe in times of need.
> The Grey Knights were so pleased they instantly elevated these scouts to the rank of Grand Master for their sheer awesomeness!!!!!"


let us pray matt ward does not read forums and uses this as an idea...oh wait he doesn't, otherwise he would know what a cock he is.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord

Stella Cadente said:


> let us pray matt ward does not read forums and uses this as an idea...oh wait he doesn't, otherwise he would know what a cock he is.


Oooh, Matt Ward hate. Can I join in?



In all seriousness I really do hope this 'spoiler' is wrong. I'm not the biggest fan of the grey knights, but they deserve better than this shit.


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## MontytheMighty

Wait...so they killed off Mortarion? or does having a name carved into your heart not mean death in the Warp?


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## Stella Cadente

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Oooh, Matt Ward hate. Can I join in?


you don't need permission to join, he has done enough bollocks for everyone to share


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## piemelke

so this grey knight has the chance to crush the hart of a heretic primarch, devour its sould, yet he comes in a poetic mood and doodles a name in the hart, pretty strange,
this being said I do not think this differs much from the sanguinator or the 13th SW, 
I have no problem with a very powerfull empirium ally compared to all the super powerfull, uber mighty demons and gods affiliated to chaos, it is now 1000000-4 for chaos


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## Grimskul25

*facepalm* Dear lord what is Ward going to do next? Start writing about Black Templars going into a crusade into the EoT, strangling Khorne with his own genitals and doing purple nurples on Slaanesh?!?


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## Wusword77

So, I understand that people are upset by Draigo moving through the warp without damage, but no one has mentioned the curse that M'Kar (this guy gets around doesn't he):

"If you set foot on this world again you shall walk with damnation for 10,000 years."

So M'Kar pulls him into the warp after putting that curse on him during their first meeting. Sounds to me like he's walking around due to the good graces of M'Kar.

As for what he did by himself in the warp, thats a stretch, but how he got there is (somewhat) understandable.

And GrimSkul Slaanesh would LOVE people to show up and give him purple nurples on a regular basis.


----------



## ckcrawford

Engindeer said:


> Am I the only one worrying about the way fluff is developing?


Same. They ruined my favorite codex and destroyed the adversity of it so that kids could get into the game or some shit... Now, so that they don't scare the shit out of the little children, there has to be some good thats just as power as Jesus Christ or else it doesn't sit well with them and their parents. 



normtheunsavoury said:


> That will be in the next SM dex.
> "Out manned and out gunned by two Ratling Snipers, the Grey knights called upon the might super dooper, mega hard, invincible totally bad ass Ultramarines for help. After the battle the Ultramarines taught the Grey Knights how to be better warriors and said they could take some Ultramarine scouts as mentors to keep them safe in times of need.
> The Grey Knights were so pleased they instantly elevated these scouts to the rank of Grand Master for their sheer awesomeness!!!!!"


Graham McNeill is good at this. All it takes is the poke from the "shard of Erebus" or some other random ass shit and Chaos shall be defeated.


----------



## SonOfStan

There are a lot of different 'facts' about the Warp, from a lot of different sources. When ships move through the Warp, they have the Gellar Field or they get torn apart. Right, ok, got it. But an Ork fleet can plunge into the Eye of Terror, disembark, and just start running around wrecking shit. And even though it's this writhing sea of insanity, with colors you can't describe and gibbering monsters and all kinds of other Lovecraftian nastiness, there are still planets there. Planets where gravity is reversed and blood rains from the sky and even MORE nastiness, to be sure, but planets nonetheless. There is STILL order and form in the Warp, despite what everyone says.

When it comes to the Warp, you really gotta throw out all the rules. Isn't that the whole point of Chaos? Maybe that's why Supreme Grandmaster or whoever can walk around without getting messed up. Or maybe it IS the Emperor, protecting a favored soul or something suitably inspirational. Regardless, the idea doesn't bother me that much, and I don't feel like it contradicts that fluff in a significant way.

What DOES horribly contradict the rest of the storyline, is the whole 'carved a name in the heart of a primarch' part. While I suppose it is possible that the greatest Grey Knight of all time, imbued with some kind of special-awesome Will of the Emperor-ness might be able to rival a Primarch, that character would be way too overpowered to be a part of the 40k tabletop game. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always operated under the assumption that the Primarchs would be way too overpowered to ever place in the game (even if GW wanted to)


----------



## Baron Spikey

SonOfStan said:


> What DOES horribly contradict the rest of the storyline, is the whole 'carved a name in the heart of a primarch' part. While I suppose it is possible that the greatest Grey Knight of all time, imbued with some kind of special-awesome Will of the Emperor-ness might be able to rival a Primarch, that character would be way too overpowered to be a part of the 40k tabletop game. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always operated under the assumption that the Primarchs would be way too overpowered to ever place in the game (even if GW wanted to)


Again it doesn't say that Draigo took Mortarion down on his own, for all we know he had hundreds of GK with him, it merely states that he carved his predecessor's name into the Daemon Primarch's heart (because Mortarion was his predecessor's killer). We know the corporeal form of a daemon remains in the real space once the daemon itself has been banished, one example being the severed head of Voldorius, so really it's not that ridiculous.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

SonOfStan said:


> There are a lot of different 'facts' about the Warp, from a lot of different sources. When ships move through the Warp, they have the Gellar Field or they get torn apart. Right, ok, got it. But an Ork fleet can plunge into the Eye of Terror, disembark, and just start running around wrecking shit. And even though it's this writhing sea of insanity, with colors you can't describe and gibbering monsters and all kinds of other Lovecraftian nastiness, there are still planets there. Planets where gravity is reversed and blood rains from the sky and even MORE nastiness, to be sure, but planets nonetheless. There is STILL order and form in the Warp, despite what everyone says.


The EOT is not the warp, as such.
The Eye is like a meeting point of the warp and real space, where they overlap.


----------



## Serpion5

I`m not gonna judge this until I can read it myself. Nor will I jump to any conclusions. If this is the test version then it`s not final. Following some of GW`s earlier cock ups I think they`re being more careful with releases now. 

At least I fucking hope they are. Some of this stuff sounds a bit ott, even for Ward. 

I know shit gets re-written, but diverting too far from established canon is asking for trouble.


----------



## Protoss119

Now see, the problem I have with Matt Ward's fluff is how it's presented: in all honesty, we shouldn't even have to go through this shit of trying to rationalize all of his fluff. The new fluff could very well be justifiable - indeed, we have no idea how many Grey Knights went down just so Mortarion could have Draigo's name carved into his plague-ridden heart - but _Matt Ward makes little to no attempt to do so_.

Take for example, the 3rd paragraph of the "page that shall not be named" (Codex Chapters, pg. 24):

"The third and final group are aberrants; chapters who, through quirk of gene-seed, mutation or stubbornness, eschew the Codex Astartes in favor of other structural and combat doctrines. Some, such as the Blood Angels and their successors, strive to be worthy of Guilliman's legacy, but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it. Others, such as the Space Wolves and the Black Templars, remain stubbornly independent, looking to their own founder's ways of war and caring little of how they fare in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters. Such divergent Chapters play little part in this volume, for this is the tale of the Ultramarines, and all who follow their example."

I think the last time I asked about this, I think it was Phoebus who gave me the explanation that these chapters are living in an unfair universe, fighting for a prejudiced society that despises mutation and nonconformity, and also why the High Lords favor the Ultramarines gene-seed over all others - the only gene-seed as pure as theirs, Grey Knights notwithstanding, is that of the Dark Angels, and their successors seem to be answering to the Dark Angels Grand Master rather than their respective Grand Masters. This is a valid explanation, but _Ward should be the one explaining it all_, providing support for why exactly he feels that way about non-Codex chapters. As it is, he comes off as a jerkass stating an opinion, not a fact.

He is just as vague about Malbede, in which Marneus Calgar let the Tau flee the planet before condeming it to Exterminatus to stop a Necron uprising (he allied with the Tau shortly beforehand), and about Gehenna, in which Dante allied with the Necrons to stop the Tyranids and then both forces parted ways, allegedly too spent to continue fighting over Gehenna and Dante finding it distasteful to turn on allies whom they had just fought alongside. The fluff in question is considered stupid because Ward spends no time proving that it isn't.

That itself begs another question: should it be the job of the writer to explain things or the reader? I believe it should be the writer's job - he needs to keep his audience informed on everything and try to dispel as much confusion as possible, and Ward has consistently failed at this, but on the other hand, we are thinking human beings. We are able to answer questions on our own, and I've seen at least one pretty good explanation for Gehenna. But Ward's fluff, just by the way he presents more subjective matter than fact ("These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters." Where's some good reasons why?) generates a whole lot more angry people demanding answers than it needs to.

Consider: he could've just as easily rewritten this:

"Chapters in the second category are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch."

As:

"Chapters in the second category are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but also follow the Codex Astartes to varying degrees, depending on the Chapter. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. While these chapters are not descended from Roboute Guilliman's gene-seed, these chapters follow the Codex Astartes as well, although some may specialize in one particular codex - for example, the White Scars favor lightning assaults and are peerless in this field, as described later in these next few pages."

Same message, different connotation.

Sorry to make you bear through the rant, but Matt Ward's writing just comes off as pretentious to me.

Oh, and he uses "So it is/was" way too much.


----------



## Baron Spikey

I like to think most writers, including Ward, shouldn't need to have to spell things out for us. Considering the widespread justifications for the events and statements present in the Codeci it's obvious that they don't need to provide any addendums for those who can't get from point A to point B.

Your example was the way Ward shouldn't have written it, the way it was actually written is phrased poorly in parts but the general message is exactly what I'd hope for.


----------



## Azkaellon

Baron Spikey said:


> Again it doesn't say that Draigo took Mortarion down on his own, for all we know he had hundreds of GK with him, it merely states that he carved his predecessor's name into the Daemon Primarch's heart (because Mortarion was his predecessor's killer). We know the corporeal form of a daemon remains in the real space once the daemon itself has been banished, one example being the severed head of Voldorius, so really it's not that ridiculous.


It also doesn't state that he DID HAVE hundreds of grey knights with him, not to mention a primarch alone was a match for an army alone almost......A DAEMON PRIMARCH is much greater then that and theres no way in hell he would be alone! bunch of plague marines and nurgle daemons around would slow down even the grey knights. I Find this whole idea very messed up and fluff ruining....Then again There doesn't seem to be any sort of pattern whats so ever in recent fluff....


----------



## Serpion5

I partway agree with Protoss on this. 

Some of this fluff probably would sound better if it was actually expanded on a bit more rather than left as a vague occurence given a brief mention on a timeline.


----------



## SonOfStan

Serpion5 said:


> Some of this fluff probably would sound better if it was actually expanded on a bit more rather than left as a vague occurence given a brief mention on a timeline.


Indeed. I mean, if it turns out it was actually an Armageddon I style conflict, with hundreds of Grey Knights taking to the field to go after Mortarion, that would certainly change my opinion of the story. Once the rest of the story comes out, we shall see.


----------



## MontytheMighty

hmm, I think most of the time writers shouldn't have to spell everything out for us...but when really, really extraordinary things happen, like a GK carving his name in Mortarion's heart...well, it would be nice to have more details, keeping it vague smacks of laziness to me, just my opinion of course


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## Davidicus 40k

MontytheMighty said:


> hmm, I think most of the time writers shouldn't have to spell everything out for us...but when really, really extraordinary things happen, like a GK carving his name in Mortarion's heart...well, it would be nice to have more details, keeping it vague smacks of laziness to me, just my opinion of course


Pretty much. When details of important or legendary events are left up to speculation, it's not good. It's like saying, "Horus corrupted half of the mighty Space Marine Legions and did some nasty shit before being bitch-slapped back into place by the Big E." Well... are we just supposed to guess what happened?


----------



## Hurricane

Davidicus 40k said:


> Pretty much. When details of important or legendary events are left up to speculation, it's not good. It's like saying, "Horus corrupted half of the mighty Space Marine Legions and did some nasty shit before being bitch-slapped back into place by the Big E." Well... are we just supposed to guess what happened?


We have yet to see the large fluff section that begins every codex so events talked about within unit entries may be part of a much larger fluff section in the beginning. Let's all slow down people. Read it first and THEN critique it. Taking the most bombastic snippets out of context is sure to incite only rage.


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## Protoss119

Sasha Nein said:


> We have yet to see the large fluff section that begins every codex so events talked about within unit entries may be part of a much larger fluff section in the beginning. Let's all slow down people. Read it first and THEN critique it. Taking the most bombastic snippets out of context is sure to incite only rage.


Perhaps, but I wouldn't be surprised if people are freaking out because they think Draigo's fluff could be seen as a sign of things to come. Yeah, Draigo's fluff is ridiculous, but it's not the single bit of fluff that's been released that I'm worried about: instead, I'm worried that the large bit of fluff surrounding the Grey Knights will be just as ridiculous. Knowing Ward, and knowing what a lot of people think of him...


----------



## Aramoro

I've read the fluff for Drago and people seem to be throwing a shit-fit over nothing, not unexpected mind you people do love throwing shit-fits. 

He banishes Mortiarian as his first act as Grand Master, so what? That's what the Grey Knights do, they Banish Daemons. 

He fought for days without stop, been an done a hundred times by other Space Marines so no problems there. 

M'Kar is why he is in the Realms of Chaos. Dudes go there all the time for whatever reason so they can sustain people. We also know the Chaos gods do not care for the actions of mortals because the Great Game is much more important. M'Kar and his curse are seemingly keeping him there, which is why he gets sucked back if he ever leaves. 

The worst thing you could say about this is M'Kar comes back in 200 years when he should have been banished for 1000 years.


----------



## Lord Lorne Walkier

Is there anything in the new fluff talking about the Grey Knights having 8 Grand Masters? or something close to that?


----------



## Protoss119

Aramoro said:


> I've read the fluff for Drago and people seem to be throwing a shit-fit over nothing, not unexpected mind you people do love throwing shit-fits.
> 
> He banishes Mortiarian as his first act as Grand Master, so what? That's what the Grey Knights do, they Banish Daemons.
> 
> He fought for days without stop, been an done a hundred times by other Space Marines so no problems there.
> 
> M'Kar is why he is in the Realms of Chaos. Dudes go there all the time for whatever reason so they can sustain people. We also know the Chaos gods do not care for the actions of mortals because the Great Game is much more important. M'Kar and his curse are seemingly keeping him there, which is why he gets sucked back if he ever leaves.
> 
> The worst thing you could say about this is M'Kar comes back in 200 years when he should have been banished for 1000 years.


But Draigo accomplishes all of this with massive amounts of plot armor - it begs the question, "How is he not dead yet?". It's bad writing.

Like I said, it took 100 Grey Knight Terminators to banish Angron and only a handful of them survived, Aurelian not amongst them as I've been informed. But it takes only Draigo and possibly an unstated number of Grey Knights to banish Mortarion, after fighting off an unstated amount of daemonic resistance, and he comes out of it just fine.

See what I mean, though? Things like carving one's name into Mortarion's heart can't be left as a footnote just to make a character look more awesome. It's things like that that need elaboration. Sure, we can make mention of Inquisitor Coteaz's performance in the Lorgamar Rebellions and his purge of the Medarean Nebula, but a lot of the fluff in Draigo's profile pushes my Willing Suspension of Disbelief, if you will.

And I realize that people have different thresholds of the Willing Suspension of Disbelief, but in his attempt to make Draigo look extra-awesome, Matt Ward is _really pushing mine_.



Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> Is there anything in the new fluff talking about the Grey Knights having 8 Grand Masters? or something close to that?


I haven't heard anything about that, sorry.

Another thing, though: In addition to Draigo, /tg/ also leaked the profiles for Castellan Garran Crowe and Brother-Captain Stern, the latter of which you probably remember from the 3E Daemonhunters Codex. These profiles are just as blurry as the one for Draigo, unfortunately.

But Crowe, according to Matt Ward, is "a flawless soul, not so much resistant to the temptations of Chaos as immune to them. It is well that this is so, for Garran bears a burden greater than any of his brothers - the Black Blade of Antwyr."

I don't know what it means for a Grey Knight, of all the galaxy's denizens, to be immune to the temptations of Chaos, since their track record shows that no Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos anyhow, but it basically goes on to describe the Black Blade of Antwyr, a daemonic sword that the Grey Knights are unable to destroy and that corrupts whatever it's stored in. Crowe is now doing battle with maddened cultists and daemons drawn to the blade and resisting the temptations of the blade.


----------



## LunaticStrain

Protoss119 said:


> I don't know what it means for a Grey Knight, of all the galaxy's denizens, to be immune to the temptations of Chaos, since their track record shows that no Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos anyhow, but it basically goes on to describe the Black Blade of Antwyr, a daemonic sword that the Grey Knights are unable to destroy and that corrupts whatever it's stored in. Crowe is now doing battle with maddened cultists and daemons drawn to the blade and resisting the temptations of the blade.


This just seems like poor planning to me. Wouldn't it be a better idea to launch it into a star? Or a black hole? Or just, the next time they run across some Necrons, drop it off in their temple and leave. Let them deal with the Chaos forces trying to get it back, and laugh at both of them. Instead of tempting fate to see if one of their members really can fall to Chaos.


----------



## Doelago

Stella Cadente said:


> I suppose somebody has to...though I can think of 1 other.


Me? 

If thats the case, then you are correct. This sounds fucking amazing.


----------



## Aramoro

Protoss119 said:


> But Draigo accomplishes all of this with massive amounts of plot armor - it begs the question, "How is he not dead yet?". It's bad writing.
> 
> Like I said, it took 100 Grey Knight Terminators to banish Angron and only a handful of them survived, Aurelian not amongst them as I've been informed. But it takes only Draigo and possibly an unstated number of Grey Knights to banish Mortarion, after fighting off an unstated amount of daemonic resistance, and he comes out of it just fine.
> 
> See what I mean, though? Things like carving one's name into Mortarion's heart can't be left as a footnote just to make a character look more awesome. It's things like that that need elaboration. Sure, we can make mention of Inquisitor Coteaz's performance in the Lorgamar Rebellions and his purge of the Medarean Nebula, but a lot of the fluff in Draigo's profile pushes my Willing Suspension of Disbelief, if you will.
> 
> And I realize that people have different thresholds of the Willing Suspension of Disbelief, but in his attempt to make Draigo look extra-awesome, Matt Ward is _really pushing mine_.


I've read it and the writing is not that bad, it all flows fairly well. You can leave what he did to Mortatian as a footnote so you can go and write the awesome story of how it happened. A lot of the fluff is like that to enable people to be creative about things. 

I mean you make a mockary of your own point by stating that it only take an unknown number of grey knights. That's clearly stupid, only takes and unknown number? Seriously?


----------



## Protoss119

Aramoro said:


> I've read it and the writing is not that bad, it all flows fairly well. You can leave what he did to Mortatian as a footnote so you can go and write the awesome story of how it happened. A lot of the fluff is like that to enable people to be creative about things.
> 
> I mean you make a mockary of your own point by stating that it only take an unknown number of grey knights. That's clearly stupid, only takes and unknown number? Seriously?


I said that it *possibly* could've taken an unstated number of Grey Knights, not that it did. Draigo could have had assistance, or he could have done it all on his lonesome. As it stands, Ward's vagueness on the matter generates a good deal more angry readers, whose willing suspension of disbelief has been shattered, than it should. _That's_ my beef with Matt Ward: he pushes way too far and it ticks people off.

It's kind of silly for me to be talking about shattering the willing suspension of disbelief when the 40k universe itself is an over-the-top nightmarish insanity, but it is what it is.


----------



## Wusword77

Protoss119 said:


> But Draigo accomplishes all of this with massive amounts of plot armor - it begs the question, "How is he not dead yet?". It's bad writing.


What massive amount of plot armor?

What happened with Mortarion is listed like a foot note in the fluff. It says that after the slaughter of the previous Supreme Grand Master Draigo curved his name into the heart of Mortarion. So, if the SGM shows up we can guess that he's going to have a good amount of GKs with him to bring down a hated Deamon Primarch. Oh and I'd venture a guess Mortarion was defeated and his spirit banished back to the warp when he did the carving.

As far as him beating M'Kar, he wasn't solo. He had all the IG regiments of the world behind him and he still nearly lost. Be squeaks out a victory and is drawn into the warp. As for what goes on in the warp, we have no idea what would happen if a mortal was blessed/cursed enough to survive unaided in the warp. 





> I haven't heard anything about that, sorry.


The leaked codex does list that there are 8 Grand Masters for the GKs. It's listed under the Grand Master fluff section.


----------



## Protoss119

Wusword77 said:


> What massive amount of plot armor?
> 
> What happened with Mortarion is listed like a foot note in the fluff. It says that after the slaughter of the previous Supreme Grand Master Draigo curved his name into the heart of Mortarion. So, if the SGM shows up we can guess that he's going to have a good amount of GKs with him to bring down a hated Deamon Primarch. Oh and I'd venture a guess Mortarion was defeated and his spirit banished back to the warp when he did the carving.
> 
> As far as him beating M'Kar, he wasn't solo. He had all the IG regiments of the world behind him and he still nearly lost. Be squeaks out a victory and is drawn into the warp. As for what goes on in the warp, we have no idea what would happen if a mortal was blessed/cursed enough to survive unaided in the warp.


The plot armor comes in when he starts fighting in the warp - he defeats the Bloodthirster Kar'voth and uses his great axe to reforge his nemesis force sword, burns the Garden of Nurgle, kills 6 of Slaanesh's chosen Daemonettes, and buries M'kachen under the ruins of the Inevitable City's walls. And that's not even the extent of what he does in the Warp:

"Through such acts, and a thousand, thousand others, did Kaldor Draigo forge a new legend, but this time in a domain where legend is the stuff of life. The Grey Knight had time and again proven his utter resistance to corruption, and had left so many thousands of slaughtered daemons in his wake that now only the most crazed of Khorne's minions continued to seek his death."

But, we'll probably just have to wait and see when the Codex is actually released in April. As it is, we're arguing over a rough draft here.


----------



## TheSpore

You know what all this sounds like to me...

The Plot of a BAD Action Movie...

By making GK use weapons that were damonic in nature or forging weapons from old daemon weapons is completely doin away with them being the most pure of all the armies. this Shit just makes them sound like a bunch loony radicles that are on the brink of turning chaos. 

What's next Chuck Norris the Grand Master who single handedly conquers the warp and and shatters Khornes spine over his knee co starring bruce willis.

It soounds like Matt just wants once again to make SM not only fallible but sound like total bad asses that make all the other armies look like filth. Its terrible writing and a complete disregard to the 40k universe.


On a side this wa snot ranting or me haviing a shit fit


----------



## normtheunsavoury

I hope this is a bit of a red herring, it sounds too ridiculous to be true.
If it is true then 40K just jumped the shark, a sad day indeed!


----------



## TheSpore

Next thing you know Necrons will team up with the BA.. Opps that actually happened


----------



## Lord Lorne Walkier

Wusword77 said:


> What massive amount of plot armor?
> The leaked codex does list that there are 8 Grand Masters for the GKs. It's listed under the Grand Master fluff section.



Nice. To me that means that the 8 Hooded Astartes taken to the emperor by Malcador at the end of the HH ARE the first Grand masters of the Grey Knights. It seams that we are getting Grey Knight origin info from both sides of the HH


----------



## gen.ahab

Should have let Phil Kelly write this. Ward is a fucking twit.


----------



## XxDreMisterxX

Hmmm... so after a few minutes of reading i would have to agree:

1.) Matt Ward should be put in a GW isolation facility where he would live out the rest of his life in isolation where he will never ruin GW fluff and the dreams and hopes of many gamers worldwide. His reign of fluff terror shall end now!! ( or hopefully in the near future)

2. I agree with the general consensus about the Supreme Grand Master and i find it terribly upsurd even for GW standards. Dam, some creativity does hinder the spirit of the work. 

3. In the CSM codex in the Daemons section where it discusses the functioning of daemons, does it not say that Daemons that materialize in the Material realm are a lot weaker because they only manifest with a partial ounce of their strength and are constantly being drained to keep themselves their? Also Daemons are ten times more powerful in the warp because they do not have the need to maintain their presence and are actually empowered by the surrounding warp energy? 

My point is fighting a GD bloodthirster or something other in the material plane and barely beating it does not compare to fighting one in the warp because its power levels are drastically different? 
(Need someone to criticize or Confirm this info plz)


----------



## TheSpore

XxDreMisterxX said:


> Hmmm... so after a few minutes of reading i would have to agree:
> 
> 1.) Matt Ward should be put in a GW isolation facility where he would live out the rest of his life in isolation where he will never ruin GW fluff and the dreams and hopes of many gamers worldwide. His reign of fluff terror shall end now!! ( or hopefully in the near future)
> 
> 2. I agree with the general consensus about the Supreme Grand Master and i find it terribly upsurd even for GW standards. Dam, some creativity does hinder the spirit of the work.
> 
> 3. In the CSM codex in the Daemons section where it discusses the functioning of daemons, does it not say that Daemons that materialize in the Material realm are a lot weaker because they only manifest with a partial ounce of their strength and are constantly being drained to keep themselves their? Also Daemons are ten times more powerful in the warp because they do not have the need to maintain their presence and are actually empowered by the surrounding warp energy?
> 
> My point is fighting a GD bloodthirster or something other in the material plane and barely beating it does not compare to fighting one in the warp because its power levels are drastically different?
> (Need someone to criticize or Confirm this info plz)


I think you got it right... Its not the idea of this char. beating down a blood thirster at all that bothers me its the idea that he is being made out to be a total bad ass and there is no way at all he will be able relfect this in the game . Not only this but since when do the GK make use daemon weapons and things of that nature. It has almost ruined my perception of the GK and I'm scared to see what is gonna happen to SoB when ever they write there codex


----------



## Wusword77

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> Nice. To me that means that the 8 Hooded Astartes taken to the emperor by Malcador at the end of the HH ARE the first Grand masters of the Grey Knights. It seams that we are getting Grey Knight origin info from both sides of the HH


Thats the plan, I think MadCowCrazy said they reveal the secret of the geneseed in the codex and it's big news. The 8 Grand Masters are supposed to represent the first 8 Astartes presented by Malcador to the Emperor.



XxDreMisterxX said:


> Hmmm... so after a few minutes of reading i would have to agree:
> 
> 1.) Matt Ward should be put in a GW isolation facility where he would live out the rest of his life in isolation where he will never ruin GW fluff and the dreams and hopes of many gamers worldwide. His reign of fluff terror shall end now!! ( or hopefully in the near future)


Lets go back to Ian Watson and have space marines farting in each others faces all day. That was much better fluff. :stinker:



> 2. I agree with the general consensus about the Supreme Grand Master and i find it terribly upsurd even for GW standards. Dam, some creativity does hinder the spirit of the work.


We don't even know if the fluff is legit at this point, it could have been reworked for the final release of the codex. That aside many of the point made in this thread concerning the SGM have shown that people only read a brief summery of the fluff, with many of the important points left out, to make him sound like he's the Emperor reborn. That is not the case.



> 3. In the CSM codex in the Daemons section where it discusses the functioning of daemons, does it not say that Daemons that materialize in the Material realm are a lot weaker because they only manifest with a partial ounce of their strength and are constantly being drained to keep themselves their? Also Daemons are ten times more powerful in the warp because they do not have the need to maintain their presence and are actually empowered by the surrounding warp energy?
> 
> My point is fighting a GD bloodthirster or something other in the material plane and barely beating it does not compare to fighting one in the warp because its power levels are drastically different?
> (Need someone to criticize or Confirm this info plz)


Yes, a Deamon manifesting in the material world are weaker as they are not supposed to be here. The problem is we don't know what would happen when a human is cursed (or empowered based on how you view it) to be able to travel the warp without a gellar field. For all we know that human could literally be spreading a plague of "order" into the "chaos" of the warp, making everything he touches weaker or his own conviction and training could empower him even further in the warp, where he can draw on psychic power much more freely and easily.

People are basing the assumption of what he can do in the warp on the idea that he just got sucked in through a crack (or was on a ship when its gellar field went down for example). That is NOT what happened.


----------



## aboytervigon

Could I have some cryptic directions to this codex cause i don't want to get anyone into trouble but cant find it anywhere.


----------



## XxDreMisterxX

If your talking about the GD daemons or any other daemons in general theres a entry in the Codex: CSM pg. 61.


----------



## Protoss119

Wusword77 said:


> Lets go back to Ian Watson and have space marines farting in each others faces all day. That was much better fluff. :stinker:


...

You win this round. I've seen excepts from Ian Watson's _Space Marine_ and I agree whole-heartedly.:laugh:


----------



## LunaticStrain

Wusword77 said:


> Yes, a Deamon manifesting in the material world are weaker as they are not supposed to be here. The problem is we don't know what would happen when a human is cursed (or empowered based on how you view it) to be able to travel the warp without a gellar field. For all we know that human could literally be spreading a plague of "order" into the "chaos" of the warp, making everything he touches weaker or his own conviction and training could empower him even further in the warp, *where he can draw on psychic power much more freely and easily*.
> 
> People are basing the assumption of what he can do in the warp on the idea that he just got sucked in through a crack (or was on a ship when its gellar field went down for example). That is NOT what happened.


Imagine the most powerful Grey Knight in existence, able to constantly use his Holocaust ability because he is IN the Warp, the place where his power comes from. That'd make him pretty powerful vs. the local Demons.


----------



## Phoebus

Wusword77 said:


> Lets go back to Ian Watson and have space marines farting in each others faces all day. That was much better fluff. :stinker:


(A) It's not as if our only choices should be between the flavor of the latest Codex: Space Marines and some OTHER bad example.
(B) When I say bad example, I do so only because you obviously felt "Space Marine" was a bad source of fluff. For my part, excluding Watson's occasional attempt at toilet humor, I found "Space Marine" to be a much more mature, dystopian source of flavor, and more suitable to the setting than the typical material we get.

Just my two cents' worth.


----------



## Sanguine Rain

gen.ahab said:


> Should have let Phil Kelly write this. Ward is a fucking twit.


Amen.....if only right?  After the quality of the DE codex (which gave a really cool look at the race and actually showed some of their FAULTS) I'm surprised how r-tarded this shit is. Crap like this is why i turned my back on the imperium long ago :grin:


----------



## Wusword77

Phoebus said:


> (A) It's not as if our only choices should be between the flavor of the latest Codex: Space Marines and some OTHER bad example.
> (B) When I say bad example, I do so only because you obviously felt "Space Marine" was a bad source of fluff. For my part, excluding Watson's occasional attempt at toilet humor, I found "Space Marine" to be a much more mature, dystopian source of flavor, and more suitable to the setting than the typical material we get.
> 
> Just my two cents' worth.


Oh I agree Phoebus, I was just making a point that people seem to think that Ward is the only source of bad/stupid/OTT fluff. Every writer for GW has done some stupid fluff at one point or another, but Ward just seems to get a lot of shit every time he writes a new codex.


----------



## Serpion5

There was a lot of criticism sparked over his *_necronsandbloodangelsbuddyfisting_* incident, but if he would only be more elaborate in conveying such occurences then it may not seem so ridiculous. 

I am currently reminded of several books in Graham McNeill`s UM series which seem to have followed a bit of this overkill trend. For example, an Ultramarine captain wanting to help a band of skinless mutant monsters does not strike me as being incredibly true to 40k canon. Nor does the idea of a Grey Knight Grandmaster letting him do it. :shok:


----------



## TheSpore

Serpion5 said:


> There was a lot of criticism sparked over his *_necronsandbloodangelsbuddyfisting_* incident, but if he would only be more elaborate in conveying such occurences then it may not seem so ridiculous.
> 
> I am currently reminded of several books in Graham McNeill`s UM series which seem to have followed a bit of this overkill trend. For example, an Ultramarine captain wanting to help a band of skinless mutant monsters does not strike me as being incredibly true to 40k canon. Nor does the idea of a Grey Knight Grandmaster letting him do it. :shok:


I cant believe im gonna actually defend this but i am.

In Dead Sky Black Sun You have to put yourself in Uriel's shoes. You and one other guy are basically stranded on a hostile daemon world possible about to get eatin by giant skinless monsters. Oh yeah that turn out to be the leftovers in CSM creation that seemngly still believe in the emperor. The Enemy of My Enemy is My Friend. It was the most logical option available vice attempting to fight aginst them. Sometimes in order to survive we must go aginst what we believe here and there otherwise we die!

As for the BA and Necron thing. If you read necron fluff the lords still have reasoning capability. They know when to make the force fall back and know how plan an attack. Logically if the BA were facing the Necrons and a Nid invasion was to occur during the war then it is a viable option. It was a temp. and bitter alliance that crippled both forces just enuff to where they couldn't continue to fight. In war there really are no rules we like to think there are but the will to survive will always conquer all our morals and beliefs.

The fluff makes sense but it is written to degree whre A. you must undertsand what these people are going through and B. know your fluff from the other sources. I thought the same thing when i read the UM books and read the BA codex. Then i looked at from a diffrent stand point. Matt just failed to explain a lil further.

There are situations where 2 armies that would never work together can be forced to work together when a higher threat is introduced. It is the nature of war!

As for the fluff on the GK this a lil OTT


----------



## Talos

This does sound like some of the worst fluff I have read from GW. 

The Draigo fluff could have been so much better. They should have made him more into a tragic hero. Yes he destroys anything but in the end it does not matter as they come back. It should be shown that it is the Chaos Gods or Daemon princes which are helping him survive so he can see how pointless the battle against Chaos is.

I wanted the Grey Knight book to show them as amazing warriors but warriors fighting a battle they all know they cant win.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Wusword77 said:


> The problem is we don't know what would happen when a human is cursed (or empowered based on how you view it) to be able to travel the warp without a gellar field. For all we know that human could literally be spreading a plague of "order" into the "chaos" of the warp, making everything he touches weaker or his own conviction and training could empower him even further in the warp, where he can draw on psychic power much more freely and easily.


Well look what happens when a ship's geller field fails whilst travelling through the warp... It's doesn't exactly result in "order" being introduced into the "chaos". 



Wusword77 said:


> People are basing the assumption of what he can do in the warp on the idea that he just got sucked in through a crack (or was on a ship when its gellar field went down for example). That is NOT what happened.


Regardless of how he ended up in the warp, his exploits seem more impressive than anything we know even the Emperor himself has done.


----------



## Phoebus

Wusword77 said:


> Oh I agree Phoebus, I was just making a point that people seem to think that Ward is the only source of bad/stupid/OTT fluff. Every writer for GW has done some stupid fluff at one point or another, but Ward just seems to get a lot of shit every time he writes a new codex.


Man, sometimes I get too serious. :biggrin:



TheSpore said:


> I cant believe im gonna actually defend this but i am.
> 
> In Dead Sky Black Sun You have to put yourself in Uriel's shoes. You and one other guy are basically stranded on a hostile daemon world possible about to get eatin by giant skinless monsters. Oh yeah that turn out to be the leftovers in CSM creation that seemngly still believe in the emperor. The Enemy of My Enemy is My Friend. It was the most logical option available vice attempting to fight aginst them. Sometimes in order to survive we must go aginst what we believe here and there otherwise we die!


I think the other poster was talking about the book _following_ "Dead Sky Black Sun". Yeah, I can see how Uriel might be forced into an uncomfortable alliance--how he might even pity the mutant victims of the Iron Warriors, since they're not technically mutants, but the products of a horrid, involuntary, pseudo-Astartes creation process.

BUT, once off that planet, Uriel's mercy should have been a bolter round to the head. And even if he WAS somehow constrained by his word to the mutants, the Grey Knights should have had no qualms about putting them down.

IMHO, of course.


----------



## Wusword77

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Well look what happens when a ship's geller field fails whilst travelling through the warp... It's doesn't exactly result in "order" being introduced into the "chaos".


True, but that ship is there through "unnatural" means, it can only survive in the warp due to protection from it's geller field. Draigo was cursed (or blessed) with the ability to wander the warp like he belongs there as opposed to the material realm. That has never happened in the fluff before (at least to my knowledge) so how do we know what will happen?



> Regardless of how he ended up in the warp, his exploits seem more impressive than anything we know even the Emperor himself has done.


We know almost nothing of what the Emperor has done in the warp, making that a weak argument. Hell we know more of what Magnus has done in the warp then we do the Emperor.


----------



## TheSpore

Phoebus said:


> Man, sometimes I get too serious. :biggrin:
> 
> 
> I think the other poster was talking about the book _following_ "Dead Sky Black Sun". Yeah, I can see how Uriel might be forced into an uncomfortable alliance--how he might even pity the mutant victims of the Iron Warriors, since they're not technically mutants, but the products of a horrid, involuntary, pseudo-Astartes creation process.
> 
> BUT, once off that planet, Uriel's mercy should have been a bolter round to the head. And even if he WAS somehow constrained by his word to the mutants, the Grey Knights should have had no qualms about putting them down.
> 
> IMHO, of course.


Yeah you have a point. Though when uriel landeed on the planet he wound up at he first assumed that it was uninhabited. So he saw no issue with the unfleshed living there until he realized that they were not alone there. I guess given the nature of uriel's char. he doesn't exactly see the codex as something to follow word for word but more of a refrence and therfore has his own sense of honor and morals he follows.


----------



## Protoss119

Wusword77 said:


> True, but that ship is there through "unnatural" means, it can only survive in the warp due to protection from it's geller field. Draigo was cursed (or blessed) with the ability to wander the warp like he belongs there as opposed to the material realm. That has never happened in the fluff before (at least to my knowledge) so how do we know what will happen?


If M'kar meant to curse Draigo to walk the warp for ten millennia, then he sure wasn't helping his own cause, considering all the stuff he did while trapped. From the looks of it, M'kar just grasped him by the throat and threw him in the collapsing warp rift, too. I don't see any measure of protection that he had barring his armor, his psychic prowess, and his faith, all of which could conceivably keep him alive only for so long.



Wusword77 said:


> We know almost nothing of what the Emperor has done in the warp, making that a weak argument. Hell we know more of what Magnus has done in the warp then we do the Emperor.


But we do know that, prior to and during the Great Crusade up to the end of the Horus Heresy, the Emperor was almost entirely material world-bound. Some old Rogue Trader fluff states that he lived secretly amongst humanity, building up his psychic might until the time came to reveal himself (the validity of this fluff now that 40k has hit 5E is unknown to me). He conducted the creation of the Primarchs on Luna where they were scattered by the Chaos Gods. He would go on to win the Unification Wars and begin the Great Crusade, and the rest is history.

True, we don't know just what the Emperor did in the warp. But even if he turned out to slay 50 quintillion daemons just to make Draigo believable, that would still do much to shatter my willing suspension of disbelief. I can't speak for the WSoD threshold of others, however.

For lack of a better term...it's like making a Bluff check in D&D. The more incredulous the story, the higher the DC gets and the harder it becomes to succeed, natural 20s notwithstanding.


----------



## Serpion5

Phoebus said:


> I think the other poster was talking about the book _following_ "Dead Sky Black Sun". Yeah, I can see how Uriel might be forced into an uncomfortable alliance--how he might even pity the mutant victims of the Iron Warriors, since they're not technically mutants, but the products of a horrid, involuntary, pseudo-Astartes creation process.
> 
> BUT, once off that planet, Uriel's mercy should have been a bolter round to the head. And even if he WAS somehow constrained by his word to the mutants, the Grey Knights should have had no qualms about putting them down.
> 
> IMHO, of course.


Bingo, this was my thought exactly! 



TheSpore said:


> Yeah you have a point. Though when uriel landeed on the planet he wound up at he first assumed that it was uninhabited. So he saw no issue with the unfleshed living there until he realized that they were not alone there. I guess given the nature of uriel's char. he doesn't exactly see the codex as something to follow word for word but more of a refrence and therfore has his own sense of honor and morals he follows.


Don`t misunderstand me, I enjoyed the books. Though I don`t necessarily agree with the sense of it at least McNeill attempts to rationalise it. 

What we`ve seen from Matt Ward just looks plain and simple, unprofessional. 

And on the necron BA thing, let me clarify; I have no qualms about necrons allying with another race to fight a far deadlier enemy. What bothered me was how it ended. Why didn`t they resume the war? Battleworn is not a just explanation for unliving machines imo, it needs a bit of expansion. Did the necrons lose too many of their monoliths? Did the Blood Angels have the numerical superiority? Were the necrons two models from phase out?

It`s not the fluff Matt writes persay, but he really needs to justify some of it better. A little less fanboyism wouldn`t hurt either...


----------



## TheSpore

Serpion5 said:


> Bingo, this was my thought exactly!
> 
> 
> 
> Don`t misunderstand me, I enjoyed the books. Though I don`t necessarily agree with the sense of it at least McNeill attempts to rationalise it.
> 
> What we`ve seen from Matt Ward just looks plain and simple, unprofessional.
> 
> And on the necron BA thing, let me clarify; I have no qualms about necrons allying with another race to fight a far deadlier enemy. What bothered me was how it ended. Why didn`t they resume the war? Battleworn is not a just explanation for unliving machines imo, it needs a bit of expansion. Did the necrons lose too many of their monoliths? Did the Blood Angels have the numerical superiority? Were the necrons two models from phase out?
> 
> It`s not the fluff Matt writes persay, but he really needs to justify some of it better. A little less fanboyism wouldn`t hurt either...


Well the way i see it with the necrons was that if u read the section about morale tests it says they arne't afraid but they do know when it is time to fall back.


----------



## forkmaster

Baron Spikey said:


> The GK fluff saysDraigo carved his predecessors name into Mortarion's heart- what it doesn't say is how many Grey Knights it took to bring down the Daemon Primarch, it certainly doesn't say that Draigo did it alone.
> 
> We know that Mortals can walk the realm of Chaos without using a Geller field, it says as much in the Chaos Daemon Codex with mortal champions having to quest across Khorne's realm in order to secure themselves a Juggernaught or Slaanesh's realm to gain a Seeker etc. Chaos Space Marines, especially the Word Bearers, don't always sail the empyrean with their Geller fields activated either.


And also a little girl managed to get into Tzeentch maze. Tru story. :biggrin:


----------



## TheSpore

forkmaster said:


> And also a little girl managed to get into Tzeentch maze. Tru story. :biggrin:


what story is that from


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Wusword77 said:


> True, but that ship is there through "unnatural" means, it can only survive in the warp due to protection from it's geller field. Draigo was cursed (or blessed) with the ability to wander the warp like he belongs there as opposed to the material realm. That has never happened in the fluff before (at least to my knowledge) so how do we know what will happen?


So your suggesting M'kar (or at least his curse) is sustaining Draigo's presence in the warp? Almost certainly it seems with what information we currently have, but that still doesn't justify how he achieved what he apparently has within the warp. 

The warp and chaos are indivisible. A realm where reality is a meaningless concept. It baffles me how a mortal (given a powerful daemon-hunter, but still no more than a mere mortal) has been able to enter this realm and achieve what he has. Merely _'gazing'_ into the warp is said to result in an instant and terrifying death for the vast majority, with even fewer able to maintain any semblance of their personal consciousness/sanity within it's boundaries. But to then proceed to crusade around slaying/defeating some of the most powerful daemons (taking into account they are *much* more powerful within their own realm, where reality is not limiting them) around and even damaging a chaos god (by burning the _Garden of Nurgle_ - remembering that a chaos god _is_ his realm) is more than absurd.



Wusword77 said:


> We know almost nothing of what the Emperor has done in the warp, making that a weak argument. Hell we know more of what Magnus has done in the warp then we do the Emperor.


Oh, I accept that. But you get my point. Draigo's exploits within the warp seem ridiculous. I don't need to re-read this thread so see that most people agree. 



forkmaster said:


> And also a little girl managed to get into Tzeentch maze. Tru story. :biggrin:





TheSpore said:


> what story is that from


_Codex: Chaos Daemons, Page 12_.

But it should be noted that it almost certainly wasn't merely a little girl. The exact wording is:

_"Legends tell that only one challenger, clad in the guise of a young girl with a little black dog, managed to make her way through all of the gates. When Tzeentch questioned him about this failure, the Guardian accused her of cheating."_

It is implied this individual achieved _'infinite knowledge'_, but it is unclear what/who said individual was/is, or what consequences her passage through the nine gates has had/will have.


----------



## LunaticStrain

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The warp and chaos are indivisible. A realm *where reality is a meaningless concept*. It baffles me how a mortal (given a powerful daemon-hunter, but still no more than a mere mortal) has been able to enter this realm and achieve what he has. Merely _'gazing'_ into the warp is said to result in an instant and terrifying death for the vast majority, with even fewer able to maintain any semblance of their personal consciousness/sanity within it's boundaries. But to then proceed to crusade around slaying/defeating some of the most powerful daemons (taking into account they are *much* more powerful within their own realm, where reality is not limiting them) around and even damaging a chaos god (by burning the _Garden of Nurgle_ - remembering that a chaos god _is_ his realm) is more than absurd.


You are aware that you argue that reality is meaningless in the warp, then wonder how someone can do some extraordinary. We have no idea what happened to Draigo, or why he is demon like. The mere mixing of the mortal with a demon int he unique way that is going on with Draigo, combined with being in the warp which has nothing to do with reality, could make him the most powerful being in existence for all we know. You are acting like he bested these demons in any way that we could conceive, when it's all metaphysical and could be a contest of wills, and him being supported in the Warp by whatever, combined with being the only being not under the thrall of a Chaos God in the warp, could make his will MUCH more powerful that the average demon.

Just some ideas.


----------



## Protoss119

LunaticStrain said:


> You are aware that you argue that reality is meaningless in the warp, then wonder how someone can do some extraordinary. We have no idea what happened to Draigo, or why he is demon like. The mere mixing of the mortal with a demon int he unique way that is going on with Draigo, combined with being in the warp which has nothing to do with reality, could make him the most powerful being in existence for all we know. You are acting like he bested these demons in any way that we could conceive, when it's all metaphysical and could be a contest of wills, and him being supported in the Warp by whatever, combined with being the only being not under the thrall of a Chaos God in the warp, could make his will MUCH more powerful that the average demon.
> 
> Just some ideas.


I don't think so. If mortals can become that powerful just by entering the warp unprotected, then humanity would've dealt with the threat of Chaos long ago. That clearly isn't the case when gellar fields fail and mortals are ripped apart (or in Ghazghkull's case, killed some of 'is boyz) or when teleporters fail and Terminators get lost in the warp - no matter the means of entry, they don't survive for long. Draigo, powerful as he is, has no excuse for being an exception to the rule.


----------



## normtheunsavoury

I pretty much agree with Protoss on this, if mortals could exist in the warp then why didn't the Emperor just send a few Legions in and kick the granny out of Chaos?
If it needed to be Psykers then the Tsons would have been able enough, maybe some Librarians from other Legions to bulk them out a bit and job done, no Chaos to worry about.


----------



## XxDreMisterxX

Maybe Draigo is a Daemon Prince of Malal. xD 

LOL JK JK. haha i'm gonna get sooooo much heat from this. xD


----------



## MontytheMighty

XxDreMisterxX said:


> Maybe Draigo is a Daemon Prince of Malal. xD
> 
> LOL JK JK. haha i'm gonna get sooooo much heat from this. xD


GW should give you a job, you have more creativity in your brainfart than Matt Ward has in his entire body


----------



## TheSpore

MontytheMighty said:


> GW should give you a job, you have more creativity in your brainfart than Matt Ward has in his entire body


what if he is a DP in the guise of a GK. Or maybe ill where a funny hat and dance around.


----------



## LunaticStrain

Protoss119 said:


> I don't think so. If mortals can become that powerful just by entering the warp unprotected, then humanity would've dealt with the threat of Chaos long ago. That clearly isn't the case when gellar fields fail and mortals are ripped apart (or in Ghazghkull's case, killed some of 'is boyz) or when teleporters fail and Terminators get lost in the warp - no matter the means of entry, they don't survive for long. Draigo, powerful as he is, has no excuse for being an exception to the rule.


That's just it. SOMETHING is going on. Humans can't survive unaided in the Warp. With Draigo, whatever is making him able to survive inside the Warp could be bending the ruled of 'Warp Reality', causing things to behave differently.

It wouldn't make sense for him to just be 'lucky' and survive. SOMETHING is making sure he survives AND behaves like a Demon, always being pulled back to the warp.


----------



## Mr.Juggernaught

Okay calm the nerd rage its just fluff so what is GW has no idea on what to do like prices codexes balance or employes i guess GW will eventually figure it out but it is not now. 

And now for why I posted I have found the leaked codex bit that all of the rumors are coming from and this is the url below this

http://www.scribd.com/doc/49119291/Grey-Knights-Codex-2011-LEAKED-Incomplete

I think it might be fake but it matches up with all of the rumors that I have found lying aroung the internet.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord

Mr.Juggernaught said:


> Okay calm the nerd rage its just fluff so what is GW has no idea on what to do like prices codexes balance or employes i guess GW will eventually figure it out but it is not now.
> 
> And now for why I posted I have found the leaked codex bit that all of the rumors are coming from and this is the url below this
> 
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/49119291/Grey-Knights-Codex-2011-LEAKED-Incomplete
> 
> I think it might be fake but it matches up with all of the rumors that I have found lying aroung the internet.


I'd lose the link, before you get yourself an infringement.


----------



## forkmaster

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> _Codex: Chaos Daemons, Page 12_.
> 
> But it should be noted that it almost certainly wasn't merely a little girl. The exact wording is:
> 
> _"Legends tell that only one challenger, clad in the guise of a young girl with a little black dog, managed to make her way through all of the gates. When Tzeentch questioned him about this failure, the Guardian accused her of cheating."_
> 
> It is implied this individual achieved _'infinite knowledge'_, but it is unclear what/who said individual was/is, or what consequences her passage through the nine gates has had/will have.


It could be Dorothy and Toto. "We're not in Kansas anymore. :biggrin: No but seriously. It is a interesting story on what this creature/thing might have been.


----------



## Engindeer

Wow! 

I expected quite a response when posting this, but never anything of this magnitude.

I really have nothing to add...

5th edition fluff ought to be completely overhauled in the next edition. That's all I hope for.


----------



## Terrabrake

Can you just not read and enjoy, A man is in the warp and is not dead so, the warp has no rules the warp is beyond the comprehension of man, you expect something to die in the warp, but the very nature of the warp is that you can not expect, so don't.

Aso the almighty emperor is protecting him.


----------



## Protoss119

Terrabrake said:


> Can you just not read and enjoy, A man is in the warp and is not dead so, the warp has no rules the warp is beyond the comprehension of man, you expect something to die in the warp, but the very nature of the warp is that you can not expect, so don't.


I certainly wouldn't expect the Warp to fuck itself over, if you'll pardon my language, for the sake of a single human being. It's been ten thousand years since teh Emprah was placed on the Golden Throne; why haven't there been more examples like Draigo who go around killing everything in the Warp? And if there are, then that leads me to my original question: how hasn't the Warp been conquered by these mighty examples of humanity? 

Both extremes are bad; one extreme is improbable given previous situations in which mortals perished in the warp, and the other extreme contradicts established fluff in which the Dark Gods are supreme in the Warp. The only way this could be made probable is if it is made accessible - something like "sometimes humans survive in the Warp, but it is an incredibly rare occurence." Ward has not done this.

A common phrase concerning the willing suspension of disbelief is that "You can ask an audience to believe the impossible, but not the improbable." We all know that the elements of the 40k setting are impossible outside of fiction, but even fiction has limits. We can hear about an organization of super-human beings hunting daemons in a dystopian future and take it in stride; that cannot be said about one who gets lost in the warp and is able to survive because he's so badass and kicks so much daemon hind-quarters that daemons are scared of him and his manly manliness. Such is highly improbable even in a setting with so many impossible elements because we expect him to fail (even for a man of Draigo's caliber) yet he succeeds for an unstated reason without changing the odds. If there was some stated reason, be it a "known known" or a "known unknown", then it would be more believable. That is to say, if the reason(s) for Draigo's survival was listed in detail or if it was stated to be unknown at the time, then his fluff would be much more believable. As a reader, I can't just sit back and take that Draigo can survive in the warp; I have to ask why.

tl;dr Some readers can't enjoy the fluff because _they don't believe it_.



LunaticStrain said:


> That's just it. SOMETHING is going on. Humans can't survive unaided in the Warp. With Draigo, whatever is making him able to survive inside the Warp could be bending the ruled of 'Warp Reality', causing things to behave differently.
> 
> It wouldn't make sense for him to just be 'lucky' and survive. SOMETHING is making sure he survives AND behaves like a Demon, always being pulled back to the warp.


I guess we'll just have to wait until April to find out. I don't really have a rebuttal at the moment. :scratchhead:


----------



## Davidicus 40k

Protoss119 said:


> A common phrase concerning the willing suspension of disbelief is that "You can ask an audience to believe the impossible, but not the improbable." We all know that the elements of the 40k setting are impossible outside of fiction, but even fiction has limits. We can hear about an organization of super-human beings hunting daemons in a dystopian future and take it in stride; that cannot be said about one who gets lost in the warp and is able to survive because he's so badass and kicks so much daemon hind-quarters that daemons are scared of him and his manly manliness. Such is highly improbable even in a setting with so many impossible elements because we expect him to fail (even for a man of Draigo's caliber) yet he succeeds for an unstated reason without changing the odds. If there was some stated reason, be it a "known known" or a "known unknown", then it would be more believable. That is to say, if the reason(s) for Draigo's survival was listed in detail or if it was stated to be unknown at the time, then his fluff would be much more believable. As a reader, I can't just sit back and take that Draigo can survive in the warp; I have to ask why.


Beautifully said, sir. If you're going to create rules and guidelines, even in a fictional world where many impossible (in real life) things occur regularly, you need to abide by them or provide an explanation - a plausible one - as to why they don't apply in a particular instance.

In this case, the rule is humans can't survive in the Warp without going insane, being ripped apart by daemons, or any number of less than desirable fates. How Draigo can do it, well... someone has some 'splainin to do! There are already some theories in this thread, and the only issue seems to be that Ward does not use one of them. If he did, it'd still be a little hard to believe, but it wouldn't be so vehemently rejected.


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## C'Tan Chimera

Skimming over the topic, wincing at the atrocities within. Matt Ward needs to stop creating...Well, Matt Ward characters.


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## Toqtamish

I don't know if this was pointed out at any point in this rather long thread but this name almost makes me think it is a joke. Khal Drogo is the name of one of the characters in the Song of Ice and Fire series of novels by George R. Martin. He's a Mongol esque barbarian that leads a large horde of horsemen and marries the last princess of the former ruling house.


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## Galebread

Toqtamish said:


> I don't know if this was pointed out at any point in this rather long thread but this name almost makes me think it is a joke. Khal Drogo is the name of one of the characters in the Song of Ice and Fire series of novels by George R. Martin. He's a Mongol esque barbarian that leads a large horde of horsemen and marries the last princess of the former ruling house.


I did speculate the character as being a practical joke (and I really hoped it was), but then it's Matt Wards, so that's already unlikely in the first place. And now GW gave us a price-tag, so yeah, seems like it's settled we'll be dealing with him in the future.

Will he turn out to be another God Mode Sue though, or just somewhat overpowered? Well, we can only hope that some extensive polishing will be happening from now till April.


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## Azkaellon

Galebread said:


> I did speculate the character as being a practical joke (and I really hoped it was), but then it's Matt Wards, so that's already unlikely in the first place. And now GW gave us a price-tag, so yeah, seems like it's settled we'll be dealing with him in the future.
> 
> Will he turn out to be another God Mode Sue though, or just somewhat overpowered? Well, we can only hope that some extensive polishing will be happening from now till April.


If this is true mephiston will be in the corner crying when compared to this guy.....:shok:


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## LukeValantine

As long as he has a Achilles heel like mephiston I won't overly mind him in game, yet I doubt someone so hyped up in the new delusional version of 40k fluff will have something like a lack of inv save.....matter of fact he will probably have a inv save instead of a armor save making him only vulnerable to things that allow no save, or dare I say it other gray knights.


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## Angel of Blood

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1140064a

I literally can't stop cringing at Matt Wards description of him on that page, he(ward) sounds like a total tool. 

Want your army to do this 'x' Draigo can make that happen! Want your opponents army to do this 'y' Draigo can make that happen!!! Want to see me orally pleasure Guilliman, Calgar and Draigo?? *Draigo can make that happen!!!!!!*


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## normtheunsavoury

Angel of Blood said:


> http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1140064a
> 
> I literally can't stop cringing at Matt Wards description of him on that page, he(ward) sounds like a total tool.
> 
> Want your army to do this 'x' Draigo can make that happen! Want your opponents army to do this 'y' Draigo can make that happen!!! Want to see me orally pleasure Guilliman, Calgar and Draigo?? *Draigo can make that happen!!!!!!*


I had managed to resist the urge to look at the GW site, then I clicked that link:angry:
What is Matt Ward thinking, if he's even thinking at all?
What a complete tool he really is, did no one else in the office take a look at what he was doing and think to take him to a quiet corner and have a chat?
12 year olds will look at this sort of stuff and instantly wet themselves but anyone with at least a tiny bit of common sense is going to laugh and call Matt a cock!


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord

Draigo's model is one of the most heinous sins against my eyes imaginable. It's like someone started sculpting him and never fucking stopped. The shit pose doesn't help either.


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## TheSpore

The model looks retarded The fluff is retarded and then if you read the text on the site about Matt Ward says

Jesus its like they completely decided to make him unkillable for daemon or nondaemon alike

He gets S 10 attacks towards daemons and S5 aginst normal enemies. I can't believe GW even allows this idiot to wrie for them.


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## vulcan539

..............uke:

At lest This has some company in the vault of horrible models.


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## TheSpore

Lest we forget the new storm raven and the power loader sorry i mean the DK.


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## Malus Darkblade

Rest assured everyone that Ben Counter will most certainly tone down the newly empowered Grey Knights.

One Grandmaster taking on countless Daemons? Too close to actual capabilities of a Grey Knight as mentioned in previous official codexes. 

Storming a Sisters of Battles HQ and coming out with just a _few_ causalities? That's more like it.

Grey Knights... soon to be Ben Countered


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## Azkaellon

TheSpore said:


> The model looks retarded The fluff is retarded and then if you read the text on the site about Matt Ward says
> 
> Jesus its like they completely decided to make him unkillable for daemon or nondaemon alike
> 
> He gets S 10 attacks towards daemons and S5 aginst normal enemies. I can't believe GW even allows this idiot to wrie for them.


Its funny because my wraithlord is still better and only 100pts........


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## Davidicus 40k

Mat Ward says (repeatedly): Draigo can make it happen!!!!!111111!!!1!!!111!!!111!!!

This is what all daemons and degenerate denizens of the Warp are thinking.


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## normtheunsavoury

I think the Matt Ward problem is an easy one to solve, GW should give me a job.
I would stand behind Matt while he sits at his desk, every time he has an idea I will punch him in the back of the head. If he has a 'great' idea I will kick him.


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## C'Tan Chimera

TheSpore said:


> Lest we forget the new storm raven and the power loader sorry i mean the DK.


FINALLY somebody else who thinks the same way.

And Normtheunsavoury, I'm quoting that.


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## Galebread

Nicely said, Norm. I would feel much more comfortable at looking at those codices if we have a Heretic or two constantly looming over Ward and his 'work'. :biggrin:

Heck, I would feel even better if our Heretics takes over the official fluff writing. After all, even Khorne knows most of our fluff writers can kick Matt Ward's ass so hard he would come out of the other side of the EOT. Oh, and he would be 'unscathed', of course!

But yes, right now, I'm getting a big God Mode Sue vibe from Draigo. Doubt it would take too long to find him with Calgar on the Disgraced roster of the trope pantheon.


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## Ardias26

Please tell me this new GK fluff isnt true...I thought the warp was supposed to be cthonic instant insanity if you even look upon it kind of thing. Now we basically have an unkillable GK running around in it, maybe Matt Ward should throw in sly marbo while he is at it. This is exactly like what blizzard is doing with World of Warcrap, dumbing down the backstory to sellout to 13 yr old kids with an epeen complex (the game itself has pretty much been buttraped to shit now because of this).:suicide:


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## TheSpore

Ardias26 said:


> Please tell me this new GK fluff isnt true...I thought the warp was supposed to be cthonic instant insanity if you even look upon it kind of thing. Now we basically have an unkillable GK running around in it, maybe Matt Ward should throw in sly marbo while he is at it. This is exactly like what blizzard is doing with World of Warcrap, dumbing down the backstory to sellout to 13 yr old kids with an epeen complex (the game itself has pretty much been buttraped to shit now because of this).:suicide:


Sadly to my knowledge it is true. I can believe the idea of a GK being cursed and stuck wandering the warp but not wreaking massive havoc within it. That is just to unbelieveable.

My god I for about ram- i mean sly marbo. That char. was such a cheesball


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## Vaz

Uriel Ventris didn't defeat entire daemonic hordes on his own.


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## TheSpore

No istead he used renagades and chaotic abominations


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## MEQinc

Here's a question. How exactly does one rise through the ranks of the GK whilst being stuck in the warp? Would not the constant battle for survival in a realm of pure madness make it a little difficult to co-ordinate anything? How do the other GKs even know he's still alive in there?

The whole story is just full of holes in you ask me.


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## TheSpore

MEQinc said:


> Here's a question. How exactly does one rise through the ranks of the GK whilst being stuck in the warp? Would not the constant battle for survival in a realm of pure madness make it a little difficult to co-ordinate anything? How do the other GKs even know he's still alive in there?
> 
> The whole story is just full of holes in you ask me.


They use email loaded on PDAs with windows 7. Bill Gates is after all an agent of Tzeench. Yes even in the warp the big 4 all have wireless connection.

Didn't you hear about the Khorne's new internet cafe chain Coff- Blood for the Blood God. Somehow anything that guy says winds up turning in to a blood for the blood god spill.


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## Baron Spikey

MEQinc said:


> Here's a question. How exactly does one rise through the ranks of the GK whilst being stuck in the warp? Would not the constant battle for survival in a realm of pure madness make it a little difficult to co-ordinate anything? How do the other GKs even know he's still alive in there?
> 
> The whole story is just full of holes in you ask me.


He was Supreme Grand Master before he was dragged into the Warp.


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## MEQinc

Baron Spikey said:


> He was Supreme Grand Master before he was dragged into the Warp.


My bad then. I thought he got sucked into the warp fighting M`Kar which the GW page said happened when he was low level.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

MEQinc said:


> My bad then. I thought he got sucked into the warp fighting M`Kar which the GW page said happened when he was low level.


Nah, basically it went:

Banished M'kar (as a battle-brother) on Acralem and was subsequently cursed by the Daemon > Rose through the ranks to Supreme Grand Master > Returned to Acralem where upon the curse took effect and he was dragged into the warp.

But even so your point still stands. I imagine it would still be a little difficult to coordinate the Chapter when he is wondering through the warp, outwitting Tzeentch and generally just being stronger than Khorne and better than Chaos... 

Unless of course the title of _Supreme Grandmaster_ is now more of a respectful titular role (without holding any direct leadership role), not bestowing it on a successor considering Draigo is still (somehow) alive (in a sense).


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## gen.ahab

Vaz said:


> Uriel Ventris didn't defeat entire daemonic hordes on his own.


He didn't have to, they ran from him in fear..


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## MontytheMighty

i liked it more when the GK only had a council of grandmasters, now they have a supreme grandmaster/chapter master like all the other chapters


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## Deadeye776

Hey, I'm knew to the board but have been reading Warhammer and 40k for over 10 years. I don't see why this is such an issue having the supreme grandmaster this dominant in the Realms of Chaos.Hector Rex banished the greatest Bloodthirster Khorne has Angraath in single combat. The 13th company have survived in the EOT for 10,000 and are still kicking a$$ present day in 40k.As to the Angron banishment requiring a company of Terminiators who didn't make it you should investigae who exactly was at that little party because it wasn't just Angron. The Skulltaker, a bodyguard of Bloodthirsters,World Eater chaos marines,and other demons.So yeah, with that kind of firepower I would say that the fact any of them made it out was impressive. If Hector can take out Angraath one on one than I can buy the Mortarion story.If Alaric and cripple a black crusade on a world dedicated to Khorne in the EOT through wit and cleverness than maybe that's how the supreme grand master pulled off torching Nurgles Garden. He may be in the warp from a curse of a greater deamon but he is one of the greatest Grey Knights so MAYBE the Emperor is giving him some help.For all you fans of chaos why do you even care how powerful he is? Abaddon the Despoiler the Chosen Champion of Chaos.Then you have all the daemon primarchs still alive Angron,Mortarion,Magnus,Lorgar,Perturabo,Fulgrim,and (I know he's not a deamon prince)Omegon or Alpharius is still alive. That's not to mention champions like Lucius,Typhon,Fabius,or Kharn or the Greater deamons you all have. So relax, one guy going chuck norris in the warp hardly compares to the amount of fire power chaos has.


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## TheSpore

Deadeye776 said:


> Hey, I'm knew to the board but have been reading Warhammer and 40k for over 10 years. I don't see why this is such an issue having the supreme grandmaster this dominant in the Realms of Chaos.Hector Rex banished the greatest Bloodthirster Khorne has Angraath in single combat. The 13th company have survived in the EOT for 10,000 and are still kicking a$$ present day in 40k.As to the Angron banishment requiring a company of Terminiators who didn't make it you should investigae who exactly was at that little party because it wasn't just Angron. The Skulltaker, a bodyguard of Bloodthirsters,World Eater chaos marines,and other demons.So yeah, with that kind of firepower I would say that the fact any of them made it out was impressive. If Hector can take out Angraath one on one than I can buy the Mortarion story.If Alaric and cripple a black crusade on a world dedicated to Khorne in the EOT through wit and cleverness than maybe that's how the supreme grand master pulled off torching Nurgles Garden. He may be in the warp from a curse of a greater deamon but he is one of the greatest Grey Knights so MAYBE the Emperor is giving him some help.For all you fans of chaos why do you even care how powerful he is? Abaddon the Despoiler the Chosen Champion of Chaos.Then you have all the daemon primarchs still alive Angron,Mortarion,Magnus,Lorgar,Perturabo,Fulgrim,and (I know he's not a deamon prince)Omegon or Alpharius is still alive. That's not to mention champions like Lucius,Typhon,Fabius,or Kharn or the Greater deamons you all have. So relax, one guy going chuck norris in the warp hardly compares to the amount of fire power chaos has.


Many of us had an issue with this because its just so over the top that it is just silly. I know I want fond of it. Many of us here as well are old schoolers who came from the golden age 40k when we could still buy a rhino for 20 bucks and CSM could still kick everyone's ass. I never had a problem with the guy being inthe warp it was just all the insane feats they made him do.WIth Abbadon or any of the other char. they don't even accoplish feats of that stature


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## Protoss119

Deadeye776 said:


> Hector Rex banished the greatest Bloodthirster Khorne has Angraath in single combat.


The difference is the level of detail in which the combat was described. For starters, Hector Rex knew An'ggrath's true name. Second, he'd been practically geared to fight opponents such as him. So have the Grey Knights, but _Arias_, as an anointed force sword, bears particular mention. Thirdly...well, the difference in and of itself. The battle between Hector Rex and An'ggrath has 1-2 pages dedicated to it in IA 7, and the details show that it was still quite a struggle. Draigo's confrontation with Mortarion, by comparison, is but a footnote. My schtick on the Willing Suspension of Disbelief is already in this thread, and does not bear repeating.



Deadeye776 said:


> The 13th company have survived in the EOT for 10,000 and are still kicking a$$ present day in 40k.


And look how it has changed them. A good many of them have succumbed to the Curse of the Wulfen and they've had to scavenge equipment from traitor Astartes. They might be kicking ass, but they're at least taking some as well. I cannot say the same for Draigo.



Deadeye776 said:


> If Hector can take out Angraath one on one than I can buy the Mortarion story.If Alaric and cripple a black crusade on a world dedicated to Khorne in the EOT through wit and cleverness than maybe that's how the supreme grand master pulled off torching Nurgles Garden.





The Battle of Kornovin said:


> Supreme Grand Master Geronitan is slain at the hands of the Daemon Primarch Mortarion. Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion. *Alone and unaided*, Draigo *smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard*, *strikes the Primarch to the ground* and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he can enter the mortal realm once more.


What little detail we have about the incident is spun in such a way as to make it seem as though it required little effort on his part. At least we know how exactly the fight between Hector Rex and An'ggrath went down.

Also, there's a difference between travelling the Eye of Terror and travelling the Warp. The Eye of Terror is merely where the Warp and realspace coalesce. The Warp itself is an entirely different dimension from realspace, with no laws of physics or reality or anything, a coalescense of pure psychic energy. No mortal may survive in the Warp without protection for this very reason alone.



Deadeye776 said:


> He may be in the warp from a curse of a greater deamon but he is one of the greatest Grey Knights so MAYBE the Emperor is giving him some help.


I don't believe the curse was any curse at all. Going by the description of Draigo, M'kar just grabbed him and threw him into the warp. I do not believe this is a direct result of M'kar's curse; would the Chaos Gods really have gone through with it if they had known how much trouble Draigo would cause in their realms? If he did in fact curse Draigo, he basically shot Chaos in the foot.


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## Weapon

On Draigo and the Chaos Gods:

"He's kicking our asses, let's trap him in our house!"

Yeah, I'm not sure what to ridicule first.


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## SlamHammer

Protoss119 said:


> I don't believe the curse was any curse at all. Going by the description of Draigo, M'kar just grabbed him and threw him into the warp. I do not believe this is a direct result of M'kar's curse; would the Chaos Gods really have gone through with it if they had known how much trouble Draigo would cause in their realms? If he did in fact curse Draigo, he basically shot Chaos in the foot.


It is entirely possible that it was the Daemon Prince M'Kar back-up plan all along. You see Draigo bust the faces of all the other gods, including a possible rival in the Lord of Change M'Kachen (and his city). It could be a bit of manipulating by M'Kar in an attempt to elevate his own position by weakening others.

Or the Dark Gods have a greater scheme taking place in the Mortal realm and do not want Draigo to interfere with it. By imprisoning him in the Warp you prevent him for leading the Grey Knights versus a grand scheme of destruction against the Imperium.


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## Deadeye776

Wait, you're saying that chaos champions don't accomplish feats in the materium compared to what Draigo has done in the ether? Okay Draigo is ONE guy who yeah has done some ridiculously bad ass stuff to the chaos gods and the realm.The forces of chaos (not including the 13 black crusades by Abbaddon) have been running trains on the imperium for centuries. Entire sectors subjugated and enslaved to the Gods.Worlds destroyed to the point where sometimes they are not recoverable. In case you forgot,Abbaddon also was indirectly responsible for getting rid of one of the most powerful Eldar Eldrad Ulthran.If he never launched that black crusade,the talismans would have never been an issue,and Slaanesh wouldn't be playing pin the tail on the Eldrad in his domain. One guy wreaking havoc in the realm of Chaos doesn't even compare to what the forces of Chaso have accomplished in Imperial Space over the centuries.Next to him who does the imperium really have that could challenge the Despoiler one on one? If a situation like the Siege of Terra occured on a planet and the forces of the Emperor had a shot at taking down Abbaddon or one of the Chaos Primarchs who would they send? One on one? That's right,unlike the siege of terra we don't have any Emperor or Primarchs who could actually best any of the top guys Chaos has. The only guy I see being able to handle Abbaddon one on one would be the Night Bringer at full power and I'm sure he'd be dying to help out the Imperium.We don't have anyone of ridiculous power levels like Chaos does so no,you don't have to have stories of Abbaddon doing ridiculous things like Draigo because he's already that powerful. Mortarion,Perturabo,Angron, or any of the Daemon Princes are ridiculously powerful. We've got this guy and maybe the Sanguinor (who only really comes when everyone is pretty much on their way to the grave) as other worldly powers from the warp.If you want to talk fair and someone being overpowered it makes absolutely no sense at all the imperium is still standing. With the forces of Chaos and the traitors with all the forces they can bring to bear,the tyranids,Necron/C'Tan,and don't forget the old school threat of the Orks/Eldar/Dark Eldar/and now the Tau it's a wonder it's still around. It makes sense that their should be some kinda bad ass somewhere holding shit back from spiling over.


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## Protoss119

Deadeye776 said:


> Wait, you're saying that chaos champions don't accomplish feats in the materium compared to what Draigo has done in the ether? Okay Draigo is ONE guy who yeah has done some ridiculously bad ass stuff to the chaos gods and the realm.The forces of chaos (not including the 13 black crusades by Abbaddon) have been running trains on the imperium for centuries. Entire sectors subjugated and enslaved to the Gods.Worlds destroyed to the point where sometimes they are not recoverable. In case you forgot,Abbaddon also was indirectly responsible for getting rid of one of the most powerful Eldar Eldrad Ulthran.If he never launched that black crusade,the talismans would have never been an issue,and Slaanesh wouldn't be playing pin the tail on the Eldrad in his domain. One guy wreaking havoc in the realm of Chaos doesn't even compare to what the forces of Chaso have accomplished in Imperial Space over the centuries.Next to him who does the imperium really have that could challenge the Despoiler one on one? If a situation like the Siege of Terra occured on a planet and the forces of the Emperor had a shot at taking down Abbaddon or one of the Chaos Primarchs who would they send? One on one? That's right,unlike the siege of terra we don't have any Emperor or Primarchs who could actually best any of the top guys Chaos has. The only guy I see being able to handle Abbaddon one on one would be the Night Bringer at full power and I'm sure he'd be dying to help out the Imperium.We don't have anyone of ridiculous power levels like Chaos does so no,you don't have to have stories of Abbaddon doing ridiculous things like Draigo because he's already that powerful. Mortarion,Perturabo,Angron, or any of the Daemon Princes are ridiculously powerful. We've got this guy and maybe the Sanguinor (who only really comes when everyone is pretty much on their way to the grave) as other worldly powers from the warp.If you want to talk fair and someone being overpowered it makes absolutely no sense at all the imperium is still standing. With the forces of Chaos and the traitors with all the forces they can bring to bear,the tyranids,Necron/C'Tan,and don't forget the old school threat of the Orks/Eldar/Dark Eldar/and now the Tau it's a wonder it's still around. It makes sense that their should be some kinda bad ass somewhere holding shit back from spiling over.


I'm not talking fair. I'm talking believable. Draigo and all of Matt Ward's new ICs could have a hundred achievements under their belt, a thousand battle honors, etc, but his killing stuff in the Warp - which for reasons previously mentioned should not be possible by any mortal - is simply ridiculous, for the same reason that Calgar being the "spiritual liege" of all Space Marines is ridiculous (admittedly, that comes from a WD interview from Matt Ward, not from the Codex), or that the Blood Angels allying with the 'crons and then leaving them be after the fight against the Tyranids is over is ridiculous, for either side. It breaks my Willing Suspension of Disbelief by attempting to make them seem uber-awesome; literally, I do not believe that Calgar is the spiritual liege of all Space Marines, for example. And for the record, I am pro-Imperium.



SlamHammer said:


> It is entirely possible that it was the Daemon Prince M'Kar back-up plan all along. You see Draigo bust the faces of all the other gods, including a possible rival in the Lord of Change M'Kachen (and his city). It could be a bit of manipulating by M'Kar in an attempt to elevate his own position by weakening others.
> 
> Or the Dark Gods have a greater scheme taking place in the Mortal realm and do not want Draigo to interfere with it. By imprisoning him in the Warp you prevent him for leading the Grey Knights versus a grand scheme of destruction against the Imperium.


Either is possible, but I don't know if it's within the power of the Chaos Gods to keep Draigo...well, existant, or intact. The Warp is just an entirely different dimension from realspace; it was before the Chaos Gods and it is now.

Even so - and I've said so earlier in the thread - it isn't just the fluff in itself that gets me riled up, but how it is spun. Even for being their own Codex, Matt Ward tends to overhype those armies he's given to write for. And the folks at GW expect me as a reader to just swallow that up?


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## nate187

It is what it is GW would not of suppported it if it was not the case. Far fetched yes but CANON it remains hahahaha. Blood angels and necron allies thats disgusting pure and simple.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord

Jesus Christ people, learn how to use the enter key. New idea = new paragraph.

As for the current topic; Wards fluff is too fanboy-ish for my liking. I like balanced characters, not characters who are incorruptible and stomp around tea-bagging the gods on their own turf.


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