# Loken



## Tarvitz210300 (Jan 27, 2011)

i just read horus rising and i take it liken is not going to turn chaos 
what happened to him


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Tarvitz210300 said:


> i just read horus rising and i take it liken is not going to turn chaos
> what happened to him


Continue to read the books and you'll find out.


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## WinZip (Oct 9, 2010)

Im not going to ruin it for you so just read Galaxy in flames and make you decision. Loken fate is a much debated issue


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Fluff forum = good.

Shift/Caps lock = good.

.!? = good.

I love your excitement and all that good stuff but posting quality would be a big improvement and ensuring you are in the right forums would be awesome as well .

Like Spelling is not my strong point, so I use Google Chrome, it tells me what is wrong.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Tarvitz210300 said:


> i just read horus rising and i take it liken is not going to turn chaos
> what happened to him


he gets horribly maimed in a donkey related accident


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## Unforgiven302 (Oct 20, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> he gets horribly maimed in a donkey related accident


I was there... it was not pretty. Then a void whale came and ate his remains. Poor Loken, he is now a icy whale turd floating in the warp.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> he gets horribly maimed in a donkey related accident












Poor Donkey


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

Warning: Spoilers.








H3 g3t5 sup3r p0wn3d by 4bb4d0n b3caus3 h3 d1d n0t w4nt t0 j01n H0rus wh3n h3 (H0rus) d3f3ct3d from t3h Imperium of Man. So, essentially, 4bb4d0n k1ll3d h1m.


I'm not happy about it either.


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## Unforgiven302 (Oct 20, 2008)

Hey, Alsojames, I understand what you were trying to do but we have these, 

Spoiler tags! 
 for a reason.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Alsojames said:


> Warning: Spoilers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WRONG!

Loken becomes one of the first Grey Knight Grandmasters and is still alive in the year 40k.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> WRONG!
> 
> Loken becomes one of the first Grey Knight Grandmasters and is still alive in the year 40k.


so where in the books does it even say that? As far as i saw loken's stroy ends with GIF


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

TheSpore said:


> so where in the books does it even say that? As far as i saw loken's stroy ends with GIF


In the books it dose not say that Loken will Live past GiF. Nor dose it say that Loken dies. You must READ BETWEEN THE LINES. If you think Loken, and the others were left to die on Istvaan III, you have been had. You fell for their trick. Hornswagled, hoodwinked, bamboozled. They, the authors, wanted us all to think Loken was dead, so that when he next appears in the story we would all be blown away. There is plenty of foreshadowing if you look for it. Maybe some of the parts that you might have thought was just poor writing perhaps.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> In the books it dose not say that Loken will Live past GiF. Nor dose it say that Loken dies. You must READ BETWEEN THE LINES. If you think Loken, and the others were left to die on Istvaan III, you have been had. You fell for their trick. Hornswagled, hoodwinked, bamboozled. They, the authors, wanted us all to think Loken was dead, so that when he next appears in the story we would all be blown away. There is plenty of foreshadowing if you look for it. Maybe some of the parts that you might have thought was just poor writing perhaps.


It could be that, absolutely.

*OR*

It could be the fact that Dan Abnett said months ago in one of his videos for BL that Loken wasn't dead and would return. You know what? That might be why people think Loken is alive.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> In the books it dose not say that Loken will Live past GiF. Nor dose it say that Loken dies. You must READ BETWEEN THE LINES. If you think Loken, and the others were left to die on Istvaan III, you have been had. You fell for their trick. Hornswagled, hoodwinked, bamboozled. They, the authors, wanted us all to think Loken was dead, so that when he next appears in the story we would all be blown away. There is plenty of foreshadowing if you look for it. Maybe some of the parts that you might have thought was just poor writing perhaps.


OR. Your wrong.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> It could be that, absolutely.
> 
> *OR*
> 
> It could be the fact that Dan Abnett said months ago in one of his videos for BL that Loken wasn't dead and would return. You know what? That might be why people think Loken is alive.


So, what if Dan Abnett had not said that Loken was still alive. What if they just kept the secret, would that change anything for you? Not for me. I had been saying Loken was alive months before Dan came out with his comments. I will be the first to admit that it made me happy i was right. Even after the authors came out saying Loken was not done people still say that he he is dead. Some think the authors are just lying.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> So, what if Dan Abnett had not said that Loken was still alive. What if they just kept the secret, would that change anything for you? Not for me. I had been saying Loken was alive months before Dan came out with his comments. I will be the first to admit that it made me happy i was right. Even after the authors came out saying Loken was not done people still say that he he is dead. Some think the authors are just lying.


You and hundreds (or thousands) of other people had been saying he might still be alive, you're hardly unique. 
If Dan hadn't said he was alive I would have carried on saying Loken was dead, with ample proof to support my point of view.

People still like to say he's dead because his death meant something and to find out he didn't die cheapens it considerably.

So who else do you think survived oh mighty one?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> You and hundreds (or thousands) of other people had been saying he might still be alive, you're hardly unique.
> If Dan hadn't said he was alive I would have carried on saying Loken was dead, with ample proof to support my point of view.


There is no proof. You simply have him buried in ruble and passing out. No body and nothing to say he was ever dead. The very fact that it wasn't specifically stated, at least in my experience, means that the author intends to let him live, which he did, or, at the very least, leave it open.



Baron Spikey said:


> I still like to say he's dead because his death meant something and to find out he didn't die cheapens it considerably.


His supposed death would have meant nothing either, he would have been killed while acting like a pissed off fool.

P.S. I like to say giant monkeyrabbitdogs can fly 747's but that doesn't make it true.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> There is no proof. You simply have him buried in ruble and passing out. No body and nothing to say he was ever dead. The very fact that it wasn't specifically stated, at least in my experience, means that the author intends to let him live, which he did, or, at the very least, leave it open.


He'd been, seemingly, mortally wounded and his last sight was of the orbital bombardment bombs about to hit- until Abnett said otherwise that seemed pretty much like a certain death to me and many others.
Your experience appears to be somewhat limited but hey ho not everyone is well read.



gen.ahab said:


> His supposed death would have meant nothing either, he would have been killed while acting like a pissed off fool.


Other than that he was defiant to the end, fighting those who had betrayed all he stood for? A character we'd grown attached to, being the most significant victim so far in one of humanity's darkest moments?



> P.S. I like to say giant monkeyrabbitdogs can fly 747's but that doesn't make it true.


I've yet to meet a giant monkeyrabbitdog that couldn't fly a 747.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> He'd been, seemingly, mortally wounded and his last sight was of the orbital bombardment bombs about to hit- until Abnett said otherwise that seemed pretty much like a certain death to me and many others.


It was obvious that that was an open ending; he never expressly stated that loken died, and, personally, I thought that there was a good chance he wasn't going to kill the character off.. and he didn't



Baron Spikey said:


> Your experience appears to be somewhat limited but hey ho not everyone is well read.


Oh, I think I is hurt. :grin:



Baron Spikey said:


> Other than that he was defiant to the end, fighting those who had betrayed all he stood for? A character we'd grown attached to, being the most significant victim so far in one of humanity's darkest moments?


I saw it as a angry, desperate man who charged head long into a fight that he probably couldn't win. Yes, you can say it was a symbol of defiance, but what would that really accomplish? In the end he proved to be nothing more than a minor speed bump.



Baron Spikey said:


> I've yet to meet a giant monkeyrabbitdog that couldn't fly a 747.


:laugh:


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> So who else do you think survived oh mighty one?


Well I am glad you would ask..... 

List of Istvaan III loyalest survivors, as i see it.

Loken, Tarvitz, Rylanor, Varren, and about hundred others. 



I also think Mhotep lives on, but that's a much thinner branch i stand on.


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## Ghost792 (Jan 6, 2010)

While I know Dan Abnett has stated that Loken is alive, the idea that him and the other loyalist characters from the first three books surviving the Istvaan III war seems kind of silly. To me they personified the kind of loss the Imperium would suffer due to the Heresy, not just with their deaths but also of the grief and disbelief that their own battle brothers had forsaken everything they had once held such a firm belief in.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Im hopin Dan will continue the loken's story soon because i almost felt cheated when GIF ended after following his story for so long


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> He'd been, seemingly, mortally wounded and his last sight was of the orbital bombardment bombs about to hit- until Abnett said otherwise that seemed pretty much like a certain death to me and many others.


A "mortal" wound to a Astartes not all that bad. The Emperor made the Astartes to be Immortal right? That is what the Geneseed was for. To keep them alive even if they were suffered these kind of injuries. I agree however that surviving the orbital bombardment is going to need explanation. Right now i think it was the first manifestation of the Shrouding.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

I was glad to hear Loken survived. Never liked a character as much as I have Loken in any book, so I'm glad he isn't dead.

I wasn't sure if he was going to die or not when I finished. It was left open ended which made me think he had survived, but an Orbital Bombardement heading straight down made me think he was pretty much boned...

Been a while since I read it, I may have to re-read to remember more stuff.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> A "mortal" wound to a Astartes not all that bad. The Emperor made the Astartes to be Immortal right? That is what the Geneseed was for. To keep them alive even if they were suffered these kind of injuries. I agree however that surviving the orbital bombardment is going to need explanation. Right now i think it was the first manifestation of the Shrouding.


A mortal wound is a mortal wound, doesn't matter if you're a slug or an almighty demi-god of war. What you'd consider a mortal wound is what changes, and I thought Loken had suffered a wound that would be the death of any Astartes- if he'd been human he wouldn't have been able to see the bombs raining down because he'd already be dead.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Anyone get the feeling Lux is back?:biggrin:


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Anyone get the feeling Lux is back?:biggrin:


Why?! Why would you jynx us like that you git?

I don't think it is Lux, this guy joined in 2009 and I don't think Lux planned for an alt-account that far in advance


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Why?! Why would you jynx us like that you git?
> 
> I don't think it is Lux, this guy joined in 2009 and I don't think Lux planned for an alt-account that far in advance


The man thought the emperor lived in Zimbabwe and worked as an accountant...... I wouldn't put anything past him.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> The man thought the emperor lived in Zimbabwe and worked as an accountant...... I wouldn't put anything past him.


I still say he wasn't a man and simply an agent of Tzeentch.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Who is this lux sounds like a very disturbed individual


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

TheSpore said:


> Who is this lux sounds like a very disturbed individual


Captain Mad aka Lux

Have a peruse of some of his threads, they're a rollercoaster of emotion- you'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll curse, and eventually you'll grow fearful for his sanity.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

I am /NOT/ that guy. I do however have ideas that get little agreement. If saying things like Mhotep will live on past the end of BftA, so be it. there was a time when saying Loken lives on would get you verbally linched here and most other fan sites.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Its sci fi fantasy anything can happen there is always some intresting odd way to explain how some of these chararicters survive such impossible odds listen to ravens flight. Corax survived some of the most insane odds.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

TheSpore said:


> Its sci fi fantasy anything can happen there is always some intresting odd way to explain how some of these chararicters survive such impossible odds listen to ravens flight. Corax survived some of the most insane odds.


There is a big difference between a Primarch and a regular Astartes though. I bet even Corax would have a hard time escaping nuclear bombardement, so reading how Loken did it should be interesting.

I can see it either sounding totally bullshit or amazingly well-done.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> I am /NOT/ that guy. I do however have ideas that get little agreement. If saying things like Mhotep will live on past the end of BftA, so be it. there was a time when saying Loken lives on would get you verbally linched here and most other fan sites.


I think it's perhaps *how* you say it that might be the problem...


For instance, saying it like this...


Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> WRONG!
> 
> Loken becomes one of the first Grey Knight Grandmasters and is still alive in the year 40k.



verses saying it like this...


Well, we know he lives because Dan Abnett says so here _(*produce link or quote*)_ and I actually have a theory about that. I think he becomes one of the first Grey Knight Grandmasters and is still alive in the year 40K. Here's why _(*produce evidence: quotes from books, other things, etc. that make you think this*)_...


Saying it the first way you did, "WRONG" in all caps puts people on the defensive right away and closes them off to the point you're trying to make. Then, when you follow that up with a bold statement about Loken becoming the first Grey Knight Grandmaster without giving the evidence that drew you to that conclusion makes people think you're making unbalanced, unfounded, outlandish claims.


I for one, am open to hearing your opinions on the subject, but help me see what your seeing. Walk me through the process. Show me the evidence that makes you draw this conclusion about Loken.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Loken ain't a psyker, can't be a grey knight.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Loken ain't a psyker, can't be a grey knight.


Maybe some untapped psychic potential, like Da'kir (?) in Salamander?

Clasping at straws there. :laugh:


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Loken ain't a psyker, can't be a grey knight.


I agree, that's why I'm hoping Lord Lorne Walkier sheds some light on why he thinks Loken became the 1st Grey Knight Grandmaster.

Well I just did a quick google search and typed in "Loken becomes Grey Knight Grandmaster" and I got one solid hit.

Ironically it was Lord Lorne Walkier over on Warseer...











The discussion about Loken is quite lengthy, but as far as I can tell, no one responded to him about his assertion and the conversation just moved along... 


He did describe his theory a little better though. It seems like his reasoning according to the Warseer post is...
(A) _"After reading the first chapter of Horus rising i got the feeling he was retelling his story many years after the Heresy ended."_ 

and

(B) _"In the Collected Visions the Emperor tells the 8 astartes brought to him by Malcador, that they have a important role to play in the futre of the Empire. I dont think dying on the Vengfull Spirt was what he forsaw."_


(A) I do get, but (B) is a bit foggy to me. What 8 did Malcador the Sigillite bring before the Emperor? I haven't seen or read "The Horus Heresy Collected Visions: Iconic Images of the Imperium, Betrayal and War" in detail. I flipped through it once at my FLGS, but chose not to purchase it. I am uncertain how that connects to Loken being a psyker?


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Uber Ork said:


> I think it's perhaps *how* you say it that might be the problem...
> 
> verses saying it like this...
> 
> ...


You are of course correct. I am very sorry if i was offending anyone or leading people to think poorly of me. It was not my intention. I have as you later discovered been arguing about Loken for a couple years. Here, on Warseer, thebolterandchainswrd and others. I feel cutting and pasting my own posts is kinda cheap , but i get tiered of repeating my self. Seems that i have degraded to shouting at the moon. Thank you for taking the time to verbal smack some sense into me. I do agree that my claims are outlandish, that just makes being right even sweeter.



Uber Ork said:


> I for one, am open to hearing your opinions on the subject, but help me see what your seeing. Walk me through the process. Show me the evidence that makes you draw this conclusion about Loken.


 Ok.... You asked for it.....



Uber Ork said:


> I agree, that's why I'm hoping Lord Lorne Walkier sheds some light on why he thinks Loken became the 1st Grey Knight Grandmaster.
> 
> Well I just did a quick google search and typed in "Loken becomes Grey Knight Grandmaster" and I got one solid hit.
> 
> ...


 This is why i tire of typig my full argument. No one seems to care. Poor me eh?


Uber Ork said:


> He did describe his theory a little better though. It seems like his reasoning according to the Warseer post is...
> (A) _"After reading the first chapter of Horus rising i got the feeling he was retelling his story many years after the Heresy ended."_
> 
> and
> ...



Ok ill try and lay it all out. I will start with what you have seen and go on.




*A) Foreshadowing Loken's long life:* There are many instances in reading the HH series that hints to me that Loken would Live on. 

1) It starts in the first chapter of Horus Rising. Loken is telling a story that he has told many times before. 
"‘I was there,’ he would say afterwards, until afterwards became a
time quite devoid of laughter. ‘I was there, the day Horus slew the
Emperor.’ It was a delicious conceit, and his comrades would
chuckle at the sheer treason of it."
The feeling i get form it is that this is a story he is telling to some one like Malcador after the HH is done. When they are trying to figure how the whole things happened. 

I have found another story with the same feel.
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Blog/Excusive-Age-of-Darkness-Extract-God-King-Tour-Dates.html

The End of the second to last chapter, pg 407,".... He would remember that moment, years later, when fate had played it's cruel trick and sense had turned upside down. ...." How Loken views this part of the story gives me the feeling he is telling this account after the War in Istvaan III. I think that the HH books will end as they started. From Loken PoV.

2) When Loken joins the Mournival, they use a ritual which causes him to have a prophetic vision. Pg 82, In this vision he attempts to see his own death. He is unable to do this in the time he searches. Failing to do this his mind settles on what i think are his very near death instances. He sees himself alone on a blasted world. This to me is Istvann III. He also sees himself fighting at the side of the Emperor in a heroic last stand. I'm not sure were this happens but feel it might be on Terra or perhaps on the Vengeful Spirit. Either way it is a time after Istvaan III. 
Some will say that this is just a case of not being able to see his own death. Or maybe that this is just regular thoughts in his head so he could be wrong or some such. I will return to this scene when i try to explain how Loken was a Psyker....

3) There are number of times in the opening trilogy that Loken ponders the long life of the Astartes. One i mentioned already is the time he joins the Mournival. Another is when he is asked by his remebracer. He think that the Astartes are immortal. I don't think this is the Author just filling up pages. I think Loken will answer this question once and for all with his own Immortality. 

4) Loken V Lucius: The sub plot i give a lot of attention to is the duels between these two warriors. In Horus Rising Loken beats Lucius in a fight. This beating shapes and twists Lucius. This is why he scars himself. In a later book Lucius evens the score. This leaves them tied 1-1. Dose this not Scream for a tiebreaker? We know that Lucius goes on to become the Eternal. And we know that that if you succeed in killing him and get any enjoyment out of it then you turn into him. I think Loken will be the one to do it. This is really a argument in itself so i wont go to far but if pressed i could explain a bit more.

5) Garro : Legion of One: http://www.blacklibrary.com/Horus-Heresy/Audio/Garro-Legion-of-One.html

I think this is a picture of Loken. He is in the Sons of Horus Colors and is wearing Luna Wolves icons. Also he is wielding the weapons that Loken is know to use. Ye ol Bolter and Chain sword. The Bolter even has a notch is the for grip. Loken has this mark given to him by a Ork. The background would then be Istvaan III


*B) Loken is one of the First Grey Knight Grandmasters:* In the Collected Visions, pg 359 the Emperor tells the 8 Astartes brought to him by Malcador, that they have a important role to play in the future of the Empire. These Astartes we know are from Legions that turned Traitor. We also know that they have talents that were suppressed. What the will do will be cloaked in secrecy. Also they seem to be tied to the creation of the =][=.

From the Audio book Garro: Oath of Moment, we know Garro is tasked by Malcador to gather up Astartes from across the legions, both Loyal and Traitor. I think we also know that the Astartes on Garro's list are Psykers. His first was a Smurf ex Liberian.

Now if i am to be right that Loken is one of the 8 Astartes brought to the Emperor by Malcador then i agree i must show that he has some psychic potential. I think Loken is a Deviner. here is why.

1) When Loken fights Lucius for the first time, he beats him in the first second of the duel. He wins with a Punch to the face with out using his sword at all. He dose all this to the best swordsman humanity has ever known. He did this even after he told Lucius he would do it. pg 377 Horus Rising: He told him" I've been watching you, of course, the attacking strokes. I can read you."

From Pg 172 dark Heresy rpg, Psychic Powers. Precognitive Strike:
"Like a spider on a web, you are able to sense disturbances to your immediate future. This ability to read possible outcomes lets you anticipate the movement of your opponents." 

Nuff said? no? ok..

2) Pg74-84 Horus Rising. Mournival induction ceremony. Loken is "unnerved" by the "ritual" Once it begins he has a foretelling. He views the future in details that scream psyker to me. The others try to convince Loken that there are no spirits but it just comes off like a pack of lies to me. They have to have a moon in reflection. This same image appears again at the very end of the book when Loken is Fighting with Horus pg 407.

If i could reread the next two books I think i could come up with more but I don't have them any more. This is most of what i can remember but i know im leaving something out.


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## sethgabriel1990 (Sep 21, 2010)

quite an intersting thread this, I'd quite like to see Loken alive... not sure how viable that is. but y'know maybe if he lived, who's to say that Rylanor etc. didnt? it'll certainly be interesting to see how this all pans out.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Update via Extract ......


http://www.blacklibrary.com/Horus-Heresy/Audio/Garro-Legion-of-One.html

I think this clears this up nicely.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

If that is Loken, the dude has gone batshit crazy and I am lovin it.


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