# Good "Daemons"?



## Commander Firebrand (Aug 27, 2013)

So when I was reading Talon of Horus there is a part that describes an area of the Warp called the Firetide. The Firetide is where the Astronomican meets the Eye of Terror and in it are psychic projectsions from the EoM like eternal choirs of flame winged angels fighting against normal daemons as well as other things like the Solar Priest.
So I was wondering does the Imperium know these things exist? Have they tried to contact or summon them? I could really see the Grey Knights or the Exorcists summoning these things to help in battle.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I don't consider those entities as being 'good' Daemons but rather manifestations of the Emperor's will.

And as we all know the Emperor is forever going to be against Chaos.

I think Gyre however, Iskhander's _ pet _, would be a better example of a good Daemon. One that isn't slavering at the mouth every moment and seems to have a head on its shoulders and clearly is loyal to his master.


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## Commander Firebrand (Aug 27, 2013)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I don't consider those entities as being 'good' Daemons but rather manifestations of the Emperor's will.
> 
> And as we all know the Emperor is forever going to be against Chaos.
> 
> I think Gyre however, Iskhander's _ pet _, would be a better example of a good Daemon. One that isn't slavering at the mouth every moment and seems to have a head on its shoulders and clearly is loyal to his master.


Yeah not sure I would class a a daemon loyal to a chaos sorcerer as good


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Who is good in the WH40k universe?

The Emperor?

Gyre is loyal to his master and defends him multiple times. The same with Neferati.

Iskhander goes as far as saying he loves both of them which is almost unheard of from an Astartes. The only other example to my knowledge is with the girl and I forget his name in the First Heretic.


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## Commander Firebrand (Aug 27, 2013)

Yeah not what I'm asking about..


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Commander Firebrand said:


> Yeah not what I'm asking about..


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

First up, the Astranomicon is not a psychic projection of the Emperor's will, it's basically the psychic death screams of the thousands of psykers fed into it every day. The Emperor, or more likely the Golden Throne, focus that emanation into a navigation beacon. I know thats kinda splitting hairs, but they are hairs that need splitting when discussing the Astranomicon. 

Secondly, that new addition to the universe reminded me more of Abnetts writing than ADB. At first I thought similar to you, that they were supposed to be like Imperial demons, then I thought maybe they were meant to be fragments of the Emperor's psyche. Then I just thought it was silly. 

As for someone trying to harness their power, it would appear that they are confined to the area of the Firetide, because they are a byproduct of the friction between the Astronmicon and the EoT. Not much use if they can only be summoned in a very specific area.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Considering how the Emperor and the Astronomican have weakened over the millenia, its not likely anything like the Firetide is present in 40k. 

Plus navigators entering the Eye in 40k, usually describes it as the Astronomican blanking out from their sight.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I always thought Angels in the warp were an interesting concept. "Daemons" take different shapes, however they are still warp identities. 

I actually think the idea that daemons almost always show themselves as monstrous creatures to be such a bad idea. 

I imagine, if Angels existed in the warp, they would represent a certain aspect of a chaos god. I always thought it would be interesting for there to be chaos gods who see things in black and white and identify with many of the old and new religious of ancient Terra.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

what I remember most from TOH is that basically the warp are 'us' (ill defined as just mankind or also other species), manifestations of our emotions. Daemons can be born out of strong emotions, e.g. hate. The way I see it that there are manifestations of both good and negative emotions (I do not want to go into a symenatic discussion on what is good and bad), bud e.g. hate, urge to kill... I would classify as more bad emotions and are the more typical manifestations we read in the lore however in TOH there is also a small mentioning of a Daemon who has a more (good) state by helping people on a ship. So following this reasoning it is fair to assume that there are daemons created as a result of a feeling of anger related to injustice towards weaker persons (which I guess we all have), I would think that those type of daemons could be called upon when fighting e.g. Slanesh. However in the 30-40K lore it seems that most manifestations are rather negative, I do not know of a sensible explanation for this.


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## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Who is good in the WH40k universe?
> 
> The Emperor?


The Emperor is horrifyingly evil. As are all who share his vision that they must rule the galaxy, and must eradicate every living being, human or otherwise, who falls remotely outside of a very narrow definition of what is right. 





Khorne's Fist said:


> First up, the Astranomicon is not a psychic projection of the Emperor's will, it's basically the psychic death screams of the thousands of psykers fed into it every day. The Emperor, or more likely the Golden Throne, focus that emanation into a navigation beacon. I know thats kinda splitting hairs, but they are hairs that need splitting when discussing the Astranomicon.


As long as we're splitting those hairs, we may as well spell it right. :biggrin: Kidding, but I couldn't resist.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

How is the Emperor evil for doing what is necessary to protect humanity?


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## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

Evil is a largely subjective concept. You may disagree. As far as I'm concerned, it's evil to survive by murdering every being that is not exactly the way you want them to be. Not just those who WILL wipe you out if they can, even if you never did anything at all to them. The Orks, for example. There will never be peace with them. The problem is, the Emperor was exactly like them. As the Orks would have wiped out all beings who were not Orks, the Emperor would have wiped out all beings who were not humans. Hell, even planets full of humans were eradicated if they weren't exactly the way he wanted them to be. Humans who there is no reason to believe would have ever made any attempt to harm the Imperium, and were not remotely powerful enough to harm them anyway. This isn't any different from America wiping out every non-American. Not just the terrorists who are attacking us whenever they can. No, we need to kill _everyone_. We can't take the chance that someone might rise up to challenge us. And we can't let anyone not exactly like us demonstrate that there are other ways of life that work just as well as ours. The Emperor stripped humanity of the things that made it noble, and worthy of survival. What's humanity like in the 41st Millennium? It's exactly what the Emperor made of it. He did not protect humanity; he made it into a pathetic thing.

It's also evil to lie to humanity about the nature of the empyrean, and, when possible, hide its existence. It is the true enemy of humanity, of all life, and it's wrong to deny everyone knowledge of the enemy's very existence. We all deserve to know what we face.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Humans and religious nutbags is what which ruined the Imperium. Things surely would have looked radically different if He had survived the fateful final encounter wtih Horus and been able to keep the reins of the Imperium.

The Imperium owes its very stagnation to when the Primarchs and the Emperor no longer was around to direct everyone. The Emperor lied about the Empyrean for a good reason, to protect the sanity of the wider mankind from the horrors of the warp. In some cases ignorance indeeed IS bliss.


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## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

Well... Maybe. Maybe it was only incredibly stupid of the Emperor to think that that was a workable strategy. Religion can be forced out of humanity? Crazy. His own son defied him in this. Don't use psyker powers? Well then don't make one of your sons an immensely powerful psyker. 

The Empyrean is the result of sentience. Specific events in the universe create specific things in the Empyrean. If no being in the universe knew of its existence, it would still be there, and acts of great evil would create powerful daemons within it. That stuff won't go away, or stop attacking the universe, just because nobody knows about it. Not knowing of its existence only makes you helpless against it. They cannot fight what they do not know about. Far better to make them understand it. There will always be those who do evil. Some will do evil in order to create daemons. Others will do good to counter that evil in one way or another.

But I won't back down an inch about genocide - xenocide? - being evil. It is evil to kill every being other than humans who think and believe exactly the way he wants. Humanity's survival is not worth the life of every member of every other species, as well as every human culture that does not fit the mold.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Vitarus said:


> Well... Maybe. Maybe it was only incredibly stupid of the Emperor to think that that was a workable strategy. Religion can be forced out of humanity? Crazy.


It worked for a long time until the Emperor fell. 

If I'm not mistaken it also worked during the Dark Age of Technology.

Also he wiped out all forms of xenos life because several, some even allied to mankind before the Age of Strife, attacked Earth and its offworld colonies at their most vunerable stage.


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## Vitarus (Apr 9, 2012)

I would word it differently. It's not as though the Emperor fell, allowing Chaos to rise. The Ruinous Powers killed the Emperor. And turned Primarchs to their side. And caused Old Night. They did a lot of serious damage while the Emperor was alive. His strategy wasn't working all that well.


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