# Where do Warriors of Chaos fit in to Fantasy army tiers?



## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Hi all,

Now that Warriors of Chaos have been knocking about for a bit, what are your thoughts on where they slot in to the army tiers within Fantasy?

Now for the contentious bit, this would be my attempt at putting them in order of competitiveness (based on results from a few GTs, discussion and experience locally):

Tier 1:
Daemons of Chaos
Vampire Counts

Tier 2:
Dark Elves
High Elves
Warriors of Chaos?
Wood Elves
Lizardmen
Skaven

Tier 2.5:
Empire
Dwarves
Bretonnians
Tomb Kings
Beasts of Chaos

Tier 3:
Orcs & Goblins
Ogre Kingdoms


Most people accept that DoC and VC are top tier armies and are a fair bit more competitive than the others. Those in tiers 2 and 2.5 are much of a muchness in comparison, since a dual STank and popemobile list for example can cause trouble for anyone.

I think it is difficult to argue with the bottom 3 as well; yes O&G can kick ass with good dice and the right build, but they are fairly nobbled currently.

Anyway, what do you guys think? Feel free to poo poo the list as you see fit, it is a very subjective topic and it is almost impossible to reliably order the middle section I think.


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## Vanchet (Feb 28, 2008)

I say that they are actually at Tier 2 at that exact spot


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

I sadly belive that the WoC will end up in the 2.5 part of the list, here's why:
*Lousy movement:* Apart from marauder horsemen the army lack control of movement. Sure they are core units but the army _really_ miss Furies or a similar flying unit. Movement is probably the single most important phase in WHFB, and an army that doesnt sport any shooting(se below) really need to have a good way of adding preasure on the opponent other ways. Movement being the top one way...Then there is also the fact that the army is a elite CC army with quite few models. Optimal targets for all warmachines in the game which WoC lack a decent way of dealing with:alcoholic:
*Shooting, w0tw00t?:* Errm I dont count thrown axes or the 1 magical 1use throwing thing to this, and the Hillcannon is not playable. This army is completly relieved from shooting, which really aint good for putting preasure on your opponent. Its even worse if you cant preasure him good in the movement phase, added together this tripples the disaster.

The army is dead hard in CC on normal terms, the really sad part is that "normal" terms dont happen that often if you cant force the opponent to allow them. In order to play something else then a 1 turn army(cc-phase) Magic must be included in a decent ammount. This costs lots and leads to less models, less CCpunch and worse results against shooting lists. Yes you can make the flying Tzeentch whatever guy to ease up a bit of movement, but even he will die from shooting, a 3+ wardsave is only so good...

Personal view: The army severly lacks a flying unit, it couldnt have been that hard to invent one for them, this is really bad from the dev team imho. Gargoyles were existing a long time ago, why not re-emerged them and included that? The whole tale of Praag is filled with them! Its cool, its chaotic, its allready existant in the fluff, they would have fitted like a hand in a glove both fluff and gamewise. 
I also still think CWs are overpriced. In a table they might be ok point for point compared to other things. However most other things have decent support in both movement and shootingphase, these guys doesnt, in fact they totally lack ituke:

Yes there are ways of thinking "outside the box" that might work but I doubt that them will seal the deal for these guys for the Tier 2 section:no:


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## zabo (Dec 19, 2008)

Not many armies have fliers and most armies can do without.


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## Inquisitor Aurelius (Jun 9, 2008)

Off the top of my head, I can only think of five armies outside WoC (BoC, Skaven, Ogre Kingdoms, Orcs & Gobbos, and Empire) that haven't got fliers. And all of those bar one have Skirmishers, which can fulfill quite a similar role. I hate to admit it, but MM may have a point. Though I'd still hesitate to say that the basic Warriors are overpriced. The Toughness of Dwarfs, Initiative of Elves, a point better of WS, Strength and Attacks than any other core infantry I can think of, and the best infantry Armour Saves in the game. Worth every penny, says I :grin:.


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## zabo (Dec 19, 2008)

meh, Ive always thought they were a pretty balanced army, maybe not amazing but certainly not horrible


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## Critta (Aug 6, 2008)

MaidenManiac, a few counter-points for you, as I disagree with pretty much everything in your post! (don't take it the wrong way, I just think you're looking at the list with a pretty blinkered view).

Firstly you have to remember that chaos armies have always been defined by the characters who lead them, it's been that way in the past and I don't see it's changed an awful lot with the new book.

*Lousy Movement*
Shaggoths - monsters with cavalry movement, move exactly the same way as fast cavalry, and US6 terror causers to boot.

*Lack of flyers*
You have access to loads of flyers in the characters section of the army list, if having a flyer is that important to your game (and 16" move fast cavalry isn't enough for you, in my experience marauder horsemen will normally handle pretty much any job that flyers would normally do). It's pretty easy to put together a flying character (uses all magic item points for a hero, or 50% of them for a lord) with 1+ armour/ 3+ ward vs either missiles or non-magical attacks. If the enemy directs enough firepower at him to kill him, congratulations, your army is another turn closer to CC with the main bulk of the army not being hit with a large amount of your opponent's missile fire. If they don't he can go clean up warmachine crews or harry them behind their lines. 

*Lack fo shooting*
OK it's a fair cop, but I'm interested to see why you dismiss the few shooting options we do have so readily - a regiment of marauder horse throwing axes can be deadly and are very good for forcing panic tests in other light cavalry regiments. Their range is low yes, but you want to be getting within 8" with these guys anyways to march block!

Also, why is the hellcannon not playable? I'd say a stone thrower that causes terror and can munch stuff in combat is pretty handy, yes it's a little unpredictable, but you have to look at it more like a monster that occasionally fires artillery rather than the other way round. I can't think of many other warmachines I'd happily put front centre of my battleline  The added bonus is that if they kill the crew, it's still a dangerous proposition to face!

Also, bear in mind that it's entirely possible for a chaos army to more than make up for the lack of shooting in the magic phase, all 3 of the god specific lores are awesome in their own way - nurgle for character assasination and buffing/debuffing units, tzeentch for easy to cast awesomeness and slaanesh for psychological warfare (with 3 decent spells for irritating artillery crew!)


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Lack of shooting? If I wanted shooting, I doubt I'd play Warriors of Chaos, so that's... a pointless point, basically.

Movement, fair do. But then again, look at the fast movers - 

Archaon, and other non-Palanquin/Chariot Mounted Characters, Valkia, Kholek and other Shaggoths, Marauder Cavalry, Chaos Knights, Spawn (albeit Randomly), Giants, Trolls, Ogres, and Forsaken. That's quite a few, including a couple of Hard as nails Flying Characters.

I think the placing is just right. They don't have the replenishment that VC's have, or the same Raw Killing Power that Daemons have, but they are probably a mix of the most simple to use armies, but with enough tricks to keep people guessing, with enough builds that are fully capable.

A lot of it is based around the special choices you can make.

Knights, and Dragon Ogres are far and away the single most useful unit in the game. Knights can be customised, and DO's are nails on their own. Slap Slaanesh on Knights, you have something that can Charge into a God, and not blink an eyelid. Khorne, you have a 230pt unit, Naked that can kill anything. And I mean anything. Ever faced 2000pt Army with 20 Khorne Knights? It's scary, even when you have 12 Dragon Ogres to counter.

Each one can be dealt with the same way, but they're cheap enough that a couple of units are taken. Unless you're spamming core units, there's no reason as to why you shouldn't completely fill your Special Selections, due to their effectiveness. And OverPriced my arse. I wouldn't pay more for them, and I'd be happy for you to drop their Price. But if I've managed to get a 65:10:25 WLD percentage, then I'm doing something right.

Of course, this is experience talking, but with such hard as nails core units (Marauders? Dirt cheap, and can slap an Orc Boy silly. Warriors? Need I say more than Chaos Warriors?), and a cheap, US2, Flanker and shield for Cavalry/Monsters, then you aren't doing much wrong.

Marauder Cavalry are cheap as Glade Riders, and are Far better at multi-tasking.

The Hellcannon was invented during the Storm of Chaos to give Chaos units something to take out a Wall, instead of charging at it with a Ram, Towers, Ladders, etc, or Flying over it with GD and Fury spam.

For the points mentioned, I've only had rings run around me from an all skirmish Wood Elf army, and Beastmen just don't have the killing power to back up the movement advantages. Charge a Warherd into the Rear of a Chaos Warriors unit and the gors will come off worse.

I'd say it's a Tier 1.5. Easy enough for anyone to pick up and do well with, but with the right methods, as easy to win as with a VC player.

However, they aren't a guaranteed win, so 1.5 is the best place for them.


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## Inquisitor Aurelius (Jun 9, 2008)

Fairly certain they don't belong ahead of Druchii. 4 RBTs and a wide frontage block of Executioners with ASF thanks to the Battle Standard Bearer trump Knight/Dragon Ogre spam. Well, unless there's a Chaos Lord in there with the Knights (and assuming he's not shot to bits before he hits combat), but then out pops an Assassin with an almost guaranteed Killing Blow and you're still screwed .


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Never lost to that set up yet. Problem is, I outmananeuvre Elves with that Set up.

Plus that's only one build. It's effective against any, yes, But Warriors Chaos has anywhere up to 5 builds that are equally effective. However, seeing as Dark Elves was not in the question, I only answered that Warriors should be 1.5. Dark Elves and High Elves belong their, because of their ease of playing, but requiring more advanced tactics to deal with an opponent.

Vampires at the moment only cause me trouble, and that's because Varghulfs are so damn cheap.


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## Inquisitor Aurelius (Jun 9, 2008)

You can only outmanouevre that setup if you're aware of it - most opponents would see the BSB in the unit and figure he's toting the Hydra Banner, say "no problem - he won't live long enough to use it", and charge in full speed with the Knights. Then I hit them with 7 S6 Killing Blow attacks that re-roll failed To Hit rolls :grin:. Not to mention the BSB's 4 S4 potential Killing Blows, also with re-rolls. And the Assassin (or -ins) could be anywhere - Corsairs, Shades, Warriors... you've just got no way to tell until they actually pop up.

Having said that, most of your points are quite valid (though I'd still consider manouevrability an issue - in the grand scheme of things, 6" Movement is nice, but not exactly cheetah-like). Marauder Horsemen die in droves to massed small arms, though, and there go your War Machine hunters, along with your one (sort of) ranged unit. WoC are also all but incapable of March blocking, meaning that it's very difficult to dictate where the battle takes place unless you're fighting Dwarfs.

Bear in mind through all this that WoC are one of my two primary armies (the other being - you guessed it - Dark Elves, not that they've seen much action recently). I love 'em, I truly do. But one unfortunate (and very difficult to prevent) Flank charge, and you're scuppered. Well, unless you run 200 Marauders, but at that point what you're really doing is playing an Orc army that actually works :laugh:.


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## Whizzwang (Dec 31, 2008)

on a side track I can't believe the OP thinks orcs + gobbos are way down there with ogres. They're not underpowered, they're underplayed. you can do some sick SICK stuff with a greenskin army. We may not be at the top of the list in competitive play in terms of strength but we are certainly not at the bottom.

I haven't played enough games with my WoC to get a good feel for them at the moment. However a 2+ save for foot troops in combat is pretty damn tasty. Combined with fast cav core choices and some insane hard hitting stuff and I think you're looking at the top 5 if played right.


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## Ancient Tiel' a fier (May 5, 2008)

I have to agree on the Orcs and Gobbos, with a little luck on the dice (animosity etc) they can be sick sick sick. Warriors of chaos however i generally feel are woefully lacking, their aweful Ld means reliance on special characters, armour just isnt enough. Much fun as mortals are unless magic heavy i dont see them as a strong force.


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## Othiem (Apr 20, 2008)

Ancient Tiel' a fier said:


> I have to agree on the Orcs and Gobbos, with a little luck on the dice (animosity etc) they can be sick sick sick.


Too bad most people aren't that lucky. We can debate rules and luck all we want, but the data backs up sqeek's list pretty close. Download the result spreadsheets they put out from the GTs and do a histogram of each armies VP score, you'll get a nearly identical ordering as sqeek does, with O&G and ogers faaar to the bottom of the list. Either only the worst WFB players like the color green, or there's someting wron gwith the army book. It's a shame they don't keep track of who plays each army at each touny, as then we could parse it out and try and assign weighting values for each generals skill level and see if they're performance is constant or changes as they run different armies.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Inquisitor Aurelius said:


> You can only outmanouevre that setup if you're aware of it - most opponents would see the BSB in the unit and figure he's toting the Hydra Banner, say "no problem - he won't live long enough to use it", and charge in full speed with the Knights. Then I hit them with 7 S6 Killing Blow attacks that re-roll failed To Hit rolls :grin:. Not to mention the BSB's 4 S4 potential Killing Blows, also with re-rolls. And the Assassin (or -ins) could be anywhere - Corsairs, Shades, Warriors... you've just got no way to tell until they actually pop up.
> 
> Fair Points. Still, the Assassin's are becoming increasingly popular, and the Killing Blow? Last time I checked, it doesn't effect Monsters . And Against Dark Elves... Horrible... Horrible Memories of Porcupine Knights. Moar.... Moar.... T5 please.
> 
> ...


200 Marauders? You're kidding me? That's way way way too weak. I've fit 380, I think, into a competitive list. And the only reason it's competitive is because of the Sorcerors, and the fact that other than the skink blowpipe spam, there is very few army (or Tournament competitive army) builds that can just deal with them in ranged, and there are so many that they need to kill 2 for every 1 I kill. Outnumbering and outclassing Dark Elf Spearmen is bare good fun.

Pretty much though, all your points are extremely well thought out, and correct - hence why Dark Elves are 1.5.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

wow interesting debate.

first off although some armies are stronger than others, i still think the BIGGEST factor is the general. I struggle to understand why ogres are at the bottom, as ive never lost a game with them, however i know that i would beat them with alot of the armies i use. 

To warriors of chaos i think they have the potential to be highly competative. the whole book is filled with sickness imo, and core fast cav that actually pack a punch along with knights, dragon ogres shaggoths and the rest means IMO that they definately have elements that can make the army very manauvreable.

Some armies will out manauvre you...but thats what there strengths are. So woodelves SHOULD out manauvre WoC. Your units SHOULD rip them a new one when they get there.
If every army had flyers/skirmishers/fastcav/hvy cav etc etc then the game wouldn't have the appeal it does and we may as well play chess


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