# When old trolls ruin it for kids....



## ARMORMAN (Jun 8, 2008)

This was posted on another forum I'm a part of....stuff like this reallllly pisses me off:

anyone else met a gamer needing a life??
Ok, bit of a rant but more a 'you must be kidding!'
My nephew went along to a warhammer night, got interested and has been playing for a few months, not having a lot of money, he couldn't get a tank that he wanted so I found some templates and made him one from the card packs his soldiers had come in.

When he went to play with it, the club games master yelled at him and told him he couldn't use it as it 'wasn't games workshop made'. As he had asked me to go that night to watch his new tank I was there and pointed out that it was ahobby and they encourage you to modify and convert stuff. He got all officious and said it had to have mostly games workshop material base or it wasn't acceptable. I couldn't help myself but picked the tank up, scraped of some of the paint and showed this "person" the GW logo. By this time my nephew was in tears and has now decided he doesn't want to play wargames anymore. This mongrel really steams my cookies, this kid (he's 10 btw) was so into this and he doesn't have much opportunity to get into anythig and to have his pride squashed by this A$$ really gets me.

I'm hoping he'll still be into modelling, I'm trying to find some non-warhammer related stuff for him to do as we had just started making a few tanks and things for him to use and now he doesn't want to touch it.

Anyone want to comment on an adult (or near adult - or perhaps more precisely an "a-dolt") treating a 10 year old this way?


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

It is very sad that a grown man would act that way.

Some people however, are very into the hobby. They take it all very seriously and are very competitive which I do respect.

However, this man should of used his judgement and maturity here.

One days noob is another days vet.


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## ARMORMAN (Jun 8, 2008)

In the plastic modeling communities, dolts like this are known as "rivet counters" - arguing and counting how many rivets are on plane panels to see if they are absolutely accurate to the real thing. I call them "basement dwellers" - people who live in their parent's basement at the tender age of 35+ years old.

It's a game, for crying out loud. If you want GW to continue to be around for a long time to come, then you need young blood to keep it alive.


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## Midge913 (Oct 21, 2010)

ARMORMAN said:


> In the plastic modeling communities, dolts like this are known as "rivet counters" - arguing and counting how many rivets are on plane panels to see if they are absolutely accurate to the real thing. I call them "basement dwellers" - people who live in their parent's basement at the tender age of 35+ years old.
> 
> It's a game, for crying out loud. If you want GW to continue to be around for a long time to come, then you need young blood to keep it alive.


I completely agree with you mate.... The man is an asshole. If this was a 20+ person with a job and the time and resources to buy and collect actual GW stuff then he may have had more of a leg to stand on.... wouldn't make him less of an asshole, but may have lent credence to his side. But that was not the case here..... What a jerk.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

one of the old teachers had massive goes at anyone if they slightly missinterprited a rule, or decided to re-paint one of their models. he trove some people out of the hobby


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The dude is a cunt and needs to be taken behind a shed and have his head kicked in a half a dozen times. That is unacceptable behavior for a child let alone a grown fucking man.


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

Wow...what a total arsehole. Is there a store manager or something there you can complain about this guy's unfriendly, driving-people-away attitude to? Someone who reduces 10-year-olds to tears has no business running games for them.


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## ARMORMAN (Jun 8, 2008)

I just emailed the kid's uncle to try to get more info. If GM had done that to one of my kids....If he had any models with him, they'd probably be in little tiny pieces from me force feeding them to him.

He's gotta be feeling pretty macho...berating a 10 year old like that...


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

the fact that the tank was built to represent a real tank by you, i am assuming it atleast had the correct dimensions and approximate shape?

To be fair, there is a line between this, which the guy was clearly being a jerk, and others, which I have seen, bringing in those plastic army men (the actual ones we had as kids, all green, not on the right bases, etc) wanting to have their kid play with those with the grownups in a big tournament game, which they were politely asked to remove their toy soldiers off the table. since a. the kid wasnt into the game to where they wanted the real models, and b. the kids father was being an asshole at the time. Both situations come out to a similar scene, but your scene, your nephew should have been able to play in the game, as im sure it wasnt a tournament even, yes? just a friendly game?


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

Gen.ahab is correct the man is a cunt and deserves shot with a ball of his own shite!! the man could have easily admired the effort in the scratch build and told your nephew that he couldn't wait to see how he do on a proper model when he got a chance and encouraged the kid, but no he acted like an elitist wanker. Continue to support and encourage your nephew please don't let that asshole put someone off a great hobby.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Im always amazed at the frequency that these "situations" appear to happen and then need to be reported on forums,dont get me wrong the guy may have acted like a dick, but we only have the version of events given by the original poster(from another forum), I dont see that we can simply trust someones version of events when they feel "little johhny" was all upset etc etc. the more likely scenario is the place of gaming has rules about what can be used on the board, someone rolls up with a poor ass cardboard tank,organiser says "you cant use that, it has to be a GW model or coversion of GW model" card board tank boy goes home in a huff and invents a story and posts it online.
I mean look at it, made the tank from GW boxes and then when challenged he scraped the paint away to reveal a GW logo?????? its a fecking set up story


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## CraftworldSurathin (Dec 18, 2011)

The only complaint I'd understand about a cardboard tank is if the dimensions were completely off, as it would change the way the game is played.


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## ARMORMAN (Jun 8, 2008)

Was not my nephew (he's 2), it was a guy on another forum I'm a part of who had this happen to his nephew.


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## ARMORMAN (Jun 8, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> I mean look at it, made the tank from GW boxes and then when challenged he scraped the paint away to reveal a GW logo?????? its a fecking set up story


Actually, I know of guys who have done this and had the same situation happen. THe difference is that the GM usually relents at the site of a GW box part. Having met some of these....interesting people, I believe that this could (and probably did) happen.

As far as paper being as good as plastic.....


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## kickboxerdog (Jun 2, 2011)

im quite shocked by this really, i personally run a club and would never dream of telling anyone who enjoys the hobby they couldnt use something, as u pointed out conversions are encouraged, and it a real shame that your nephew has been put off the hobby.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

If I could make paper thanks that good I'd make a cut out book of it and sell them.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

I agree. That is a damn good cutout tank.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

Was it a GW store? I know that kind of thing wouldn't fly there.

I'm with B&K. We're getting a 4th person one-sided story.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Oldman78 said:


> Gen.ahab is correct the man is a cunt and deserves shot with a ball of his own shite!! the man could have easily admired the effort in the scratch build and told your nephew that he couldn't wait to see how he do on a proper model when he got a chance and encouraged the kid, but no he acted like an elitist wanker. Continue to support and encourage your nephew please don't let that asshole put someone off a great hobby.


This is the right answere. Try to get that kid back into the Hobby. Dont let this asshole win. At the very least play some home games or with trusted friends and encourage the kid again. Assholes like this are a blight and unfortunate part of the hobby/game. Dont let them win.


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## ARMORMAN (Jun 8, 2008)

Let me clarify some points:

The child is NOT my nephew. I currently have an email into the uncle to try to get some more information.

The Medusa is mine, I posted it to point out that if done correctly, a paper or mixed media kit can be as good as a plastic kit.

Third, I agree that this is coming second (or third) hand, which is why I am seeking information. The problem is, as I have previously stated, there ARE people like this GM who feel the need to be superior, right, or whatever. We (as in all of us who game) need to be on the lookout for these types of individuals and derail them before something like this happens. It does no one any good. Not the reputation of the GW, the shop, or our fellow gamers. Just food for thought.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

personally the story sounds like it is at best exaggerated to make the gm sound bad. More likely it is trolling to get the " the guy is a jerk, kill him!" reaction.

(very big if here) If this is base in any way in a real situation, it is probably because the "uncle" had a much better opinion of the craftsmanship of their model than the model actually had. he then got angry when someone said that it was not acceptable.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Scratch builds from card or sheet styrene (or whatever other materiel) are only acceptable to my mind if they are the exact dimensions of whatever they're trying to be. I have held my self to this with my own scratch builds and further endeavoured to make them as much like the plastic varieties as possible with rivets, stowage and other such details. 

Of course in a friendly game i would be more lenient, and take the person's age into account. Still at the very least it should be somewhat similar is size. Further in an official GW store i wouldn't use scratchbuilds (unless it's for something that doesn't have a kit) as that's against their polices which i can understand, they're a buisness afterall.


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## GeneralSturnn (Feb 20, 2011)

I allow scratchbuilds/proxies to an extent(with Army Men I mean) as long as your not going to use 54mm Army Men and stick to the 28mm(or slightly taller than 28mm) only if you put him on a base will be be taller that is.


and if your going to buy a thousand 28mm army men to make a quick army, well, just use the guy's with kar98k's for Guardsmen and your fine in my book(and make sure you got command squads/sergeants and the like also)

I've actually switched from GW Imperial Guard miniatures to other miniature companies($28 for 10 figures when their not Space Marines?!?!?!?!? CRAZY!!!!)

the only miniatures I WILL continue buying from GW: Imperium(GK/SM/WH), Orks, Chaos, as you cannot make cheap replica's of them(their iconic you know)


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## ARMORMAN (Jun 8, 2008)

Got a response. Removed the greetz and farewells:

"It was only last month just before Christmas and ,being a small area, was the only wargames club around. It is here in the Riverland in South Australia in Renmark. I don't believe the Gm is attached to a store (there isn't one here) nearest store is in the capital city Adelaide. Unfortunately, mynephew is a beginning modeller so skill level is low. Enthusiasm was high until this jerk, I'll give him a bit of time to calm down and maybe he'll get back into it. I have even offered to play some games with him (if I can figure out the rules) but at the moment hes totally turned off. Unfortunately, being a small area, its the only one around. I am hoping he may find a few friends who'll play without being associated with this jerk."

I suggested he (or the parents) speak to the shop owner to let him know that there's a person who is not helping his bottom line.

EDIT- from a post in the general thread:

"I spose when its your whole life it takes on its own importance ( One of the other players told me the GM is late 30's and lives with his mum). "


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## Insanity (Oct 25, 2011)

ARMORMAN said:


> This was posted on another forum I'm a part of....stuff like this reallllly pisses me off:
> 
> anyone else met a gamer needing a life??
> Ok, bit of a rant but more a 'you must be kidding!'
> ...


IF i were you i would be trying to get into contact with the store manager, unless he is the store manager, then a report to some higher authority .


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

ARMORMAN said:


> Got a response. Removed the greetz and farewells:
> 
> "It was only last month just before Christmas and ,being a small area, was the only wargames club around. It is here in the Riverland in South Australia in Renmark. I don't believe the Gm is attached to a store (there isn't one here) nearest store is in the capital city Adelaide. Unfortunately, mynephew is a beginning modeller so skill level is low. Enthusiasm was high until this jerk, I'll give him a bit of time to calm down and maybe he'll get back into it. I have even offered to play some games with him (if I can figure out the rules) but at the moment hes totally turned off. Unfortunately, being a small area, its the only one around. I am hoping he may find a few friends who'll play without being associated with this jerk."
> 
> ...


The GM (i assuming hes the dude running the games) at a set of games decided the lad (who to be fair is too young im my opinion) couldnt use a paper tank, without seeing the tank in question its impossible to give an accurate appraisal of its battlefield worthyness and allegedly acted like a bit of dick with his delivery of the news to the kid.
Assuming it actually happened, we dont know how the kid acted?we dont know if the version of events given was the factual version or the fiction version and im getting the vibe that the kid may have been involved with the production of said tank with the uncles help so i imagine that the tank wasnt as impressive as armourmanns paper tanks(well done by the way nice work)
and most importantly we dont have the GM's version of events or know anything about the dude (other than his living arrangements) for all we know he might have lost his job or a loved one that week or the kid broke his prized limited edition *insert random thing* the week before and was sick of the clumsy little tyke!

And im gonna go out on a limb and say making a tank out of GW packing does not make it a GW tank, when the house rules state GW models must be used or models converted from 70% GW models,using the box does not count.

Again assuming the story has any merit in the first place, it highlights why some 10 year olds shouldnt be playing the game, they are not mature enough to deal with situations like this in a teen/adult environment, im not excusing the GM guys actions (assuming that the story is true) but we all know people can be dicks regardless of age AND i dont see how his living arrangements have anything to do with his character and to point it out on a forum is itself very childish , my brother in law lived with his mother until his thirties, he was caring for her until she died of cancer, does that mean hes a child upsetting wargame geek? 

I agree that encouraging new blood to the hobby is important, but the new blood (and relatives of the new blood)also needs to understand that clubs have rules and its likely those rules might mean you cant do something that seems unfair, that does not mean the guy running the show can act like a dick, but i still think the reality and the version of events posted were two different things.


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## CardShark (Dec 20, 2010)

if it was not a tounry event which i think we established it wasn't and the dementions were correct then he should've been fine and the manager should be ashamed of himself. I had a problem in once however where i was the one complaining about someone using a model like that HOWEVER it was in a tourny and he was using dreadnaughts as drop pods with dreadnaughts coming out of the drop pods it simply wasn't possible to keep track of which ones were pods and which ones were dreads (he also had 4 heavy supports) it's stuff like that that gets to me.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

Besides, that looks like a Medusa, which doesn't have an actual model IIRC.


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

More than anything else (at least in the United States) this is what's killing not only Warhammer, but all hobby stores in general. There are adults who 'at best' are hostile and uncompromising with new players, and 'at worst' throw tantrums like pathetic manbabies every time a new player skirts the rules.

It's one thing to correct a new player, and another to yell at them. This isn't school or a job, this is a hobby, something people are supposed to do for fun. If part of your hobby is getting screamed at by 30+ year olds who act like pre-teens, then there's something seriously wrong with the hobby.

Granted, we don't know the actual specifics of what happened at that specific hobby shop, but one thing is certain: the GM was uncompromising, and not very supportive with new players, and if that's the norm at your hobby shop, then you might as well close down. New players are the only way hobby stores can afford to stay open.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

The level of non-reading in this thread is astounding.


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

DeathKlokk said:


> The level of non-reading in this thread is astounding.


[citation needed]


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

> the GM was uncompromising, and not very supportive with new players, and if that's the norm at your hobby shop, then you might as well close down.





> *I don't believe the Gm is attached to a store (there isn't one here)*





> Besides, that looks like a Medusa, which doesn't have an actual model IIRC.





> *The Medusa is mine, I posted it to point out that if done correctly, a paper or mixed media kit can be as good as a plastic kit*.


Just off the top.


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## ARMORMAN (Jun 8, 2008)

DeathKlokk said:


> Just off the top.


THANK YOU!:biggrin:


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

I did read that, but I didn't mean to imply that this only true for GM's attached to the store. I meant that if this is the norm at your shop (middle aged men harassing new players) then you might as well shut down. It doesn't matter how official their position is, their mere presence is the problem.

One of the few hobby shops in my area has been slowly dying over the past 5 years because of it. New players start, but there are three middle aged guys who are constantly there that keep yelling and harassing the new players over every disagreement with the rules, so the new players leave. 

The owner won't kick these guys out because they're old friends, and each spend $100-200 bucks a month at the store, but it's not enough to keep the place open.


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## ItsPug (Apr 5, 2009)

Deathklokk is (probably) on about the fact that despite the OP stating multiple times that this was not his nephew...



ARMORMAN said:


> I just emailed the kid's uncle...





ARMORMAN said:


> Was not my nephew (he's 2), it was a guy on another forum I'm a part of who had this happen to his nephew.





ARMORMAN said:


> The child is NOT my nephew. I currently have an email into the uncle to try to get some more information.


A lot of people still think he is...



KhainiteAssassin said:


> the fact that the tank was built to represent a real tank by you...





Oldman78 said:


> Continue to support and encourage your nephew please don't let that asshole put someone off a great hobby.





kickboxerdog said:


> as u pointed out conversions are encouraged, and it a real shame that your nephew has been put off the hobby.


etc...

Edit: Damn ninja'd repeatedly while trying to get the damn multi-quotes tidied. Ah well


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Old doesn't mean wise my local gaming center has a vet that is so profoundly arrogant and just bitter that he actually cause me and 3-4 other people to leave permanently. Sad when depressive failures use a hobby to vent their meaningless rage on.


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## GeneralSturnn (Feb 20, 2011)

LukeValantine said:


> Old doesn't mean wise..



That's exactly why alot of the older people I talk to must earn my respect, I do not give it simply "because your old".


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

GeneralSturnn said:


> That's exactly why alot of the older people I talk to must earn my respect, I do not give it simply "because your old".


If age had any value in itself then the tortoise would be the most revered animal in nature. Luckily it is not.


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## ARMORMAN (Jun 8, 2008)

A more apt statement in dealing with anyone is the one I use frequently:

"Light travels faster than sound. That's why people appear bright until they speak."


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

GeneralSturnn said:


> That's exactly why alot of the older people I talk to must earn my respect, I do not give it simply "because your old".


Lukily for us oldies the respect of the young is a bit like monopoly money ;p


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Well i can say i can look at the other side of the fence.

Location: GW Horsby

I was playing an Apoch game and i was captain of the team, and we all have to go through the rules.

We gathered at 10am and submitted our armies by 10.30am and as captain i gathered my guys for a team rally and then we talked tactics. Well as this was going on a 10 year kid and his dad was in the store looking around, he (the dad) told one of the red shirts that he played 40k a few years earlier and wanted to get his kid into it. Well he did not buy anything but did ask what was happening and the red shirt told him well the guy and his kid left the shop.

5 minutes before the game was to start, the dad and his kid comes back into the store and promptly opens a bag of ww2 plastic soldiers and a toy truck with a milk carton taped to the toy truck (he tried to use it as a Khorne tower of Skulls). 

I went over and asked what was going on and this dad said his son was going to play with us, i said "No Chance" and called over the manager and put in an official complaint. The dad wanted to bash up me and the manager, we called security and with his kid now in tears was evicted.

Then 2 months later the same dad with his kid entered the hall in my local area to play 40K and he said his kid had a Tau Army and when his kid began to deploy his Tau Army, we were shocked that the Tau were in fact badly made Transformer models, the ones you find at $1 dollar shops and again he was asked to leave and again he became violent and the police were called and was arrested, the kid was in tears.

The fact in this case the dad was the offending smartarse fucktard that honestly believed that the rules did not apply to him and his kid.

Also anyone placing a carboard tank in front of me, gets no game, if i am on a low income is prepared at least to buy a GW tank and build it i expect nothing less from someone else, not some pathetic cheap nasty knock off, because anything else i consider a lack of respect for the game itself and for those who play the game.


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## ARMORMAN (Jun 8, 2008)

A better way to handle it would have been to explain that the rules had changed since the dad played and that the whole morning had been given over to tactics and rules and it would take several hours to bring the kid up to speed. (Though if the dad had played, why didn't he deploy his force for the kid to use?)

As far as your statement on low income is concerned, If you're single and low income, it's a lot easier to make blanket statements because you only have to provide for you as opposed to the responsibility you have when you have to provide for a family.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Achaylus72 said:


> Also anyone placing a carboard tank in front of me, gets no game, if i am on a low income is prepared at least to buy a GW tank and build it i expect nothing less from someone else, not some pathetic cheap nasty knock off, because anything else i consider a lack of respect for the game itself and for those who play the game.


Well, this depends on who i am playing in my case. One of my friends/ clubmates who is trying out a list, thats fine by me, use a coke can as a dreadnought, i dont mind, go nuts with proxies, because i know that they will buy the model, because we are tournament players, and tournaments require real models. But, if little timmy comes in with daddy and some toys, he can fuck right off. It could be my general dislike of spoilt children that makes me feel this way, but my excuse is that i generally only play with players who are as good or better than me.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> Well i can say i can look at the other side of the fence.
> 
> Location: GW Horsby
> 
> ...


I agree that it was incredibly poor sportsmanship for the incompetent father to expect to be able to ignore 90% of the hobby so his kid could partake in a expensive hobby, but really the fact he went to jail over it in front of his kid makes the story more sad than anything. Going to jail over toy soldiers and incompetence is bad enough, but in front of your child is just a nightmarish depressing situation.

No offensive but compared to the obvious mental issues such a individual must have the minor inconveniences he caused your gaming group seem trivial. I just hope for his child sake that he got the mental help he so obviously needed.


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## ARMORMAN (Jun 8, 2008)

So, should a store that carries GW and has games have a special section set up to train noobs? Say, for example a loaner squad of basic figs for the kids to get a feel for the game and as they gain experience expand on it? Let them do a "layaway plan" to show their desire to build a legit army by making payments and as they are doing this, let them slide on the issues of "army men" or home brew vehicles until they can afford to replace it? Or, if you're really going to be anal about it, why not put your money where your mouth is and buy the kid a squad (you know the 3-5 man cheap packs that they use for promotions) and get him excited because instead of just berating them because they don't have a perfect army to join in your glorious fantasy, you've actually done something to make him want to go the extra mile?


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## ThoseKrazyKasrkin (Aug 2, 2011)

bitsandkits said:


> Lukily for us oldies the respect of the young is a bit like monopoly money ;p


Yeah, worthless


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

I used a cardboard box as a Doomsday Ark proxy last week. It was a GW box (Annihilation Barge) so was about the right volume. I am still working my way through all the units in the codex, and haven't built a Doomsday yet, so nobody minded. This was in a GW store.

If people had objected then I would have just used a different list, but as most people are interested in trying out strategies against these units it is usually fine as everyone is learning something about the hobby.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

A cardboard box is about right for an ark anyway. 

Ran three in a list last week (proxied with raiders) to playtest, none survived past turn two. :laugh:


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> A cardboard box is about right for an ark anyway.
> 
> Ran three in a list last week (proxied with raiders) to playtest, none survived past turn two. :laugh:


True, almost any penetrating hit makes the Doomsday useless. I'd only use them in games on large tables, where the range is of some value.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

ARMORMAN said:


> So, should a store that carries GW and has games have a special section set up to train noobs? Say, for example a loaner squad of basic figs for the kids to get a feel for the game and as they gain experience expand on it? Let them do a "layaway plan" to show their desire to build a legit army by making payments and as they are doing this, let them slide on the issues of "army men" or home brew vehicles until they can afford to replace it? Or, if you're really going to be anal about it, why not put your money where your mouth is and buy the kid a squad (you know the 3-5 man cheap packs that they use for promotions) and get him excited because instead of just berating them because they don't have a perfect army to join in your glorious fantasy, you've actually done something to make him want to go the extra mile?


A store should do what it feels is right for its bottom line, a store is a business first and not a club or child care facility, if the store owner/manager feels its appropriate to offer noob services and that it will pay dividends then so be it, but ultimately any store should be concerned with the bottom line because thats how stores stay open.

A store who is doing alot to cater for noobs for example maybe by its efforts forcing paying veterans out (something GW is often accused of), by not enforcing the clubs "no paper tank rule" the GM from the original post may have alienated several veterans who also wanted to include scratch built tanks because they didnt have enough cash to buy GW models at the time.
I personally dont think children as young as 10 should be playing in clubs or stores, anyone who is not able to attend these places unaccompanied is too young to be playing the game regardless of what models they can or cant put on the table.

I dont think a 10 year old has the capacity to actually play the game unaided, playing at home with dad/brother/mum/sister or the family dog is different, and even then i expect that certain liberties would need to be taken with the rules.

personally i love scratch built stuff, its the very essence of our hobby, after all, all the plastic kits and models we love were once scratch built by the designer, but scratch building and proxies are two different things, and scratch built and green army men and a box taped to a toy truck are something entirely different again.
I was thinking about scratch building and model making etc last night, it was a very important part of the hobby back in the day, many of the tanks and such that we have kits for now used to have to be either scratch built or converted because the kits simply did not exist even though the rules did, but thats slightly different to printing off a paper template or building a paper version of a kit that is available, for some reason it just feels weird?

the first scratch built model i made was a plasticard bane blade which the templates were printed in white dwarf, but even though i enjoyed the late nights and blistered fingers, i thought how much better it would be to have bought a plastic kit (even when the technology back then was limited).

I dont know if im thinking this through a parents eye, but i wouldnt want my child taking part in a hobby without the "correct" equipment so to speak,i know if my child was playing football for his local club i would want him to have some boots and shin pads, i wouldnt send him in cricket trainers& pads would i? Im not saying the Kid in the first post has bad parents, im just saying personally i would find out what the club stance was on what models can or cant be used, does he need his own codex and rule book dice etc etc


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> I was thinking about scratch building and model making etc last night, it was a very important part of the hobby back in the day, many of the tanks and such that we have kits for now used to have to be either scratch built or converted because the kits simply did not exist even though the rules did, but thats slightly different to printing off a paper template or building a paper version of a kit that is available, for some reason it just feels weird?


Having started back in the dim and distant (when the nostalgia was better) I can remember building odd vehicles out of bottles and shoe-boxes; the idea of doing it now does seem weird.

My theory as to why is twofold:

(i) the increase in model quality has made the gap between looking good and bad much larger so many poele expect a certain standard and find the idea of sticking a shoebox next to a detailed kit to be against the visual aspect: this would also cover using little green army men of the same size as IG.

(ii) the rules have - barring some anomalies - a lot more focussed on fairness rather than pure fun: for instance both TLOS and rules for how different weapon mounts move has made size and shape much more important so over the decades since Rogue Trader we have been conditioned to view conformity to the look of GW products as useful (if not actually required).


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

My general rule of thumb is at the bare minimum a proxy exploitative army should have the standard bases marked with what they are. MY first 2 games with the new necrons had 50% of the force proxies by naked bases. Of cause you always give the enemy the targeting advantage to make up for the fact that you have no reference for model seen on the table.

However flat out regretting a plea to proxy a force for the first 2-3 games with a new army is a recipe for a crushed wind pipe. Matter of fact I have had friends that refuse to proxy and just build a army they like of think is good and...well I have a record of 80% wins against the poor stupid sod. Yet I guess the people in my gaming center would be more inclined to allow me the luxury because after the first two games I paint the entire army that I acquire to a level 4-5 painting standard.


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## ARMORMAN (Jun 8, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> I dont know if im thinking this through a parents eye, but i wouldnt want my child taking part in a hobby without the "correct" equipment so to speak,i know if my child was playing football for his local club i would want him to have some boots and shin pads, i wouldnt send him in cricket trainers& pads would i? Im not saying the Kid in the first post has bad parents, im just saying personally i would find out what the club stance was on what models can or cant be used, does he need his own codex and rule book dice etc etc


Agreed. However, we are talking about a hobby that can become quite expensive. It used to be 30 plastic marines for $16 U.S. and now it's 5 for $35. Yes, the quality has improved (for the most part), and the figs are cool; which is one of the attractions to the game (obviously). Looking at it as a parent, I'd want my kid to be able to play the game and see if he really likes it and will pursue it before I start plunking down big bucks for a an armor kit.


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## The Dog Boy (Oct 6, 2011)

I am shocked that this has turned into a discussion on the line between official and unofficial modifications. This was a 10 year old boy new to the hobby and very interested in it. Whether the story is true or exaggerated is also ridiculous. Regardless of the quality of the model, a person of responsibility at a game store where a new customer is approaching the hobby and needs confidence and guidance should NEVER turn him or her away with such odius behavior. The kid should be able to use whatever the hell he's got! The "official" crap is completely unimportant for a new player (a new customer!) and can be introduced later as the new customer gets more involved. If another, regular player, has a problem then a person of responsibility should make an exception for a new player in virtually every instance.
I feel that this is just common sense, isn't it?


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

The Dog Boy said:


> I am shocked that this has turned into a discussion on the line between official and unofficial modifications. This was a 10 year old boy new to the hobby and very interested in it. Whether the story is true or exaggerated is also ridiculous. Regardless of the quality of the model, a person of responsibility at a game store where a new customer is approaching the hobby and needs confidence and guidance should NEVER turn him or her away with such odius behavior. The kid should be able to use whatever the hell he's got! The "official" crap is completely unimportant for a new player (a new customer!) and can be introduced later as the new customer gets more involved. If another, regular player, has a problem then a person of responsibility should make an exception for a new player in virtually every instance.
> I feel that this is just common sense, isn't it?


So where do you draw the line in the sand? if you own a business and your store sells model kits for playing a game (name unimportant) your livelyhood depends on selling the model kits, to encourage sales you decide to have several game tables for customers to play the game using the models you have sold to them,you spend your hard earned money getting these table up and running, you decide the store rule is "you can only use genuine models from the game range" then little Timmy turns up one week with his paper tank and wants to game, the reason his tank is paper is his parents dont want to "risk" spending money on him because "he might not stick with it" 

So the dilema is do let a "potential" customer whos parents dont like to "risk" spending money on him as he has a tendency to swap hobbies use his paper tank and at the same time bend the store rules for a player whos actually 2 years below the expected starting age 

OR
do you politely explain the store rules about models and offer to sell the parent a tank kit so he can play(maybe offer to help timmy assemble it/ prime it ) and at the same time keep the store rule intact ?


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## ARMORMAN (Jun 8, 2008)

ergo, my suggestion for a store layaway plan...the customer shows good faith by plunking cash down for a model(s) and the store owner allows the person into a game as long as they are paying. Though I still think setting up a simple training table for noobs would probably be better.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

ARMORMAN said:


> ergo, my suggestion for a store layaway plan...the customer shows good faith by plunking cash down for a model(s) and the store owner allows the person into a game as long as they are paying. Though I still think setting up a simple training table for noobs would probably be better.


its 2012 and we are talking about model kits, its not a TV or refrigerator, its not too much to expect for people to simply turn up at a store and hand over cash they have saved (by them self)and buy the models that way? most store in the UK have store armies (normally from the AOBR/IOB sets) and do intro games, but how long do you really need to spoon feed newbs? 
Play a couple of intro games and then its time to buy your own starter set and crack on or walk away, holding a newbs hand for weeks and months is not a good use of a stores time or resources, as important as new customers are so are the many other types that land in a store on any given day all of which could potentially be a sale missed if you spend too long making sure little Timmy is feeling "confident" about his new hobby.


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## ARMORMAN (Jun 8, 2008)

Are most stores that you speak of in the UK GW stores, by chance? I know of no hobby shops in my area in North America that has a store army.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

ARMORMAN said:


> Are most stores that you speak of in the UK GW stores, by chance? I know of no hobby shops in my area in North America that has a store army.


My GW has a store army of about 1500 pts of SM that new players can use to get into the game. (I live in California)


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

Same here. Both stores that I go to have store armies that are used for megabattles and the very occasional army testing. I once went to a store that let me play with the store's 1000-point Tau army to try them out.


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## CraftworldSurathin (Dec 18, 2011)

ARMORMAN said:


> Are most stores that you speak of in the UK GW stores, by chance? I know of no hobby shops in my area in North America that has a store army.


My store (US) has IoB armies for new player to learn fantasy, and is working on AoBR armies.


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## Imwookie2 (Jul 14, 2010)

mcmuffin said:


> But, if little timmy comes in with daddy and some toys, he can fuck right off. It could be my general dislike of spoilt children that makes me feel this way, but my excuse is that i generally only play with players who are as good or better than me.


Well first I would hardly call a little Kid that is using a toy or cardboard model "spoiled". Id call a 12 year old with a fully modeled and painted army bought off of ebay or something "spoiled". Id much rather play a kid using a toy proxie then a 12 year old using a fully modeled army.

I find it funny how people will say no cardboard models and turn around and use a SM as an ork....you are doing the same thing.......proxieing models.

With this all being said I expect people who can afford the model to buy it and use it instead of a proxie after the first couple of games.....in the case of the OPs story if that kid showed up month after month with that same proxied tank and didnt buy any GW tanks or models... then I would expect someone to "politely" ask the kids uncle to buy some GW product or to stop coming in....but there is no excuse for being an ass about it.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

ThoseKrazyKasrkin said:


> Yeah, worthless





Imwookie2 said:


> Well first I would hardly call a little Kid that is using a toy or cardboard model "spoiled". Id call a 12 year old with a fully modeled and painted army bought off of ebay or something "spoiled". Id much rather play a kid using a toy proxie then a 12 year old using a fully modeled army.
> 
> I find it funny how people will say no cardboard models and turn around and use a SM as an ork....you are doing the same thing.......proxieing models.
> 
> With this all being said I expect people who can afford the model to buy it and use it instead of a proxie after the first couple of games.....in the case of the OPs story if that kid showed up month after month with that same proxied tank and didnt buy any GW tanks or models... then I would expect someone to "politely" ask the kids uncle to buy some GW product or to stop coming in....but there is no excuse for being an ass about it.


Number 1: I wasnt referring to material possessions, its the fact that the father turns up to a Gaming Club with a child who is too young for the game and wants him to be allowed to play with a piece of paper, when everyone else at the table has put time and effort into their armies. They are spoilt by the attitude of the parents, not their material possessions

Number 2: A Proxied SM as an ork or vice versa is still a games workshop model. Therefore, you have put money into the hobby in the form of a previous army. If i want to proxy a GW model for another GW model of similar size, i will, because i have payed for those models. I only proxy when testing a list, because i want maximum efficiency for my money. If i find that the proxied unit works well, i will buy it. 

Number 3: there is a 95% chance that this story is exaggerated or spun to make the games master look like a dick, here is a more likely scenario

"Timmy walks into the club game with his paper tank, but is told, in a normal manner, by the games master that they have a no cardboard tanks policy. Little timmy throws a tantrum and starts crying" - Then the uncle goes on to bitch about this, even though the child is too young to understand the specifics of this game in the first place. Then some one brings up the living arrangements of the GM, which are also, probably 95% bullshit.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

I am starting to think the whole " i took my child of an inappropriately young age to the store..." stories are just attempte to troll/ gain support fort their behaviors that ahave gotten them justly booted from civilized gameshops. 

The kis is too young for the game, which is intended for an audience no less than two years older than the child, and ones considerably more mature than the one in the example. Getting that upset when someone you do not know tells you firmly that you cannot play at their store until you bring the correct models is not a sign that the child is ready.

As I said on the infinity forums, there is a reason that games have a recommended age printed on them, and it isn't for grins.


So many here keep focusing on the : mistreatment of the chuld," and frget that the other patrons also have a right to expect: that they will not be saddled with effectively babysitting a stranger's child, having to change their behavior because a parent might get upset that their child who was too young to be in a game shop by themselves heard potentially objectionable language, or having to be on guard for sticky fingers and broken models.

Then again these are just my experiences with what happens when parents allow their kids to wander the streets (literally) and the kids become a nuisance at the local hobby shop.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

ARMORMAN said:


> This was posted on another forum I'm a part of....stuff like this reallllly pisses me off:
> 
> anyone else met a gamer needing a life??
> Ok, bit of a rant but more a 'you must be kidding!'
> ...


This is the original OP.

Lets break this down as verbatum.

In the first paragraph *Armorman* actually admits that his nephew has been playing the game for several months. Also the Nephew has not alot of money (How much disposable income does a 10 year old have), and could not get the tank he wanted. So according to* Armorman* that it was he that made the decision to construct a tank from carboard.

Not only that the Nephew can't afford to buy the tank but his own dad and *Armorman* as his uncle could not afford collectively the tank.

So the boy's dad and *Armorman* as we can only guess are gamers themselves, know that there is a high chance of the tank not being allowed to be used, but none the less accompany the child, by this stage the boy will have been told by his dad and his uncle that he can play with the cardboard tank. So low and behold they rock up and think that they can use that cardboard tank. Here is the kicker both dad and uncle never once phoned the store in question to ask if proxies can be used, they believed that it was their god given right that they can do anything they wanted.

They would have known had they phoned ahead that Proxying isn't allowed at that particular store and are in all likelyhood told respectfully that the child can not play with that cardboard tank, now daddy and uncle dearest are now pissed off that the child is told he can't play, so accepting the decision. And Armorman goes on a rant about that because the cardboard was Games Workshop that it was okey dokey, but the damage is done, the manger/owner is right royally pissed off and has no choice but exclude the boy, not for what the boy has done, but what his father and uncle have done.

In all of this the boy was the unwitting victim of a pissing contest and was used by two very immature and down right disgracefully behaved adults to basically assert their authority over a store owner/manager.

To use a child in any pissing contest by a dad and backed up by an uncle is child abuse nothing more or less.

And in the end it is Armorman who is trolling for unwarrented sympathy.


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## ARMORMAN (Jun 8, 2008)

...except *AS I HAVE SAID AT LEAST 3 TIMES* I AM NOT RELATED TO THE INDIVIDUALS IN THE STORY! C'mon read it and digest the info before you comment.

...it seems my "light travels faster than sound..." comment can be extended into writing.

BTW, Armorman does not play the games because he gets too involved and it brings out very bad things in him. He likes to paint and create minis, but that's about it.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

ARMORMAN said:


> ...except *AS I HAVE SAID AT LEAST 3 TIMES* I AM NOT RELATED TO THE INDIVIDUALS IN THE STORY! C'mon read it and digest the info before you comment.
> 
> ...it seems my "light travels faster than sound..." comment can be extended into writing.
> 
> BTW, Armorman does not play the games because he gets too involved and it brings out very bad things in him. He likes to paint and create minis, but that's about it.


Yes you have and although i would love to excuse the failure of not taking my medication this morning when i wrote what i wrote, but i cant excuse what i wrote.

And i sincerely appologise for my unwarranted rant.


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## CardShark (Dec 20, 2010)

I'm not gunna take sides in this arguement but for those of you who said the child was to young to play I myself began playing warhammer 40k when I was 8 and it took me two years to get myself a 2000 point army, but I built it up and practiced while I did and got to be pretty good at a young age.


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## CardShark (Dec 20, 2010)

I'm not gunna take sides in this arguement but for those of you who said the child was to young to play I myself began playing warhammer 40k when I was 8 and it took me two years to get myself a 2000 point army, but I built it up and practiced while I did and got to be pretty good at a young age.


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

CardShark said:


> I'm not gunna take sides in this arguement but for those of you who said the child was to young to play I myself began playing warhammer 40k when I was 8 and it took me two years to get myself a 2000 point army, but I built it up and practiced while I did and got to be pretty good at a young age.



Exactly, it's not about age it's about maturity. Which is what most people were complaining about to begin with.


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## ARMORMAN (Jun 8, 2008)

I sent the uncle the link to this thread. He sent me this response:

"Interesting that most of them took the "never happen, made up" line. The tank I made was a landraider painted in black templpar colours, it was supposed to be friendly games, he had saved and brought three squads of space marine although he has now thrown them away. I will try to figure out how to post a pic of the tank, (as I said, my skills aren't fabulous but it looks the right shape and was close to colour ) of which I was attempting to get a 'real one' for him but won't bother now. I guess it just goes to show some ppl are just too caught up in whatever there focus is. Your comment on the forum Re; so expensive ... but are good models, I agree with, I don't game myself, being a carer for my wife, who had an accident couple years ago and having my own kids, I can't aford to 'get into it'. My nephew has no father anymore but I try to help him out and keep him on the straight and narrow. Thats why i encouraged him to 'give it a go' and go to the night as he was invited by another player (who has since left that club over the same incident). Honestly, I don't care about comments on my skill level but there is no need to yell at a kid, if this guy would have explained that it wasn't allowed and talked about it, it probably would have worked out differently. But I guess there will always be some [email protected]@ around. "


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

So this " uncle" has looked at the forum, and not bothered to respond or verify the truth. I am more convinced this story is false and nothing more than a lame attempt at trolling on your part.


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## ARMORMAN (Jun 8, 2008)

Your lack of cognitive reasoning powers is staggering.....


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

ARMORMAN said:


> Your lack of cognitive reasoning powers is staggering.....


The troll is strong with this one.

Anyway. Most gaming clubs have an average age of around 22, with several younger and older members. That means that there will be a mature environment there, probably involving adult humour and typical adult behaviour. These are not places for young kids to play. If some one who is of an inappropriate age to play a game decides to play anyway, they should at least refrain from using pieces of "Games workshop own brand cardboard" I really don't give a shit about this incident, but i can almost guarantee that the gaming club they went to has a minimum age limit. I cannot imagine a grown man shouting at a child over a cardboard tank either. This is turning into a game of chinese whispers.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

So if the mean average is 22 what is the standard deviation?


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Well that would depend on the number of members in the club wouldnt it  I am not sure if you are just trying to be a smart arse here or what?


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Sad he threw away the marines rather than selling them and recouping his losses.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

OK people, enough labeling of "Troll" and basically calling the OP a liar. Be nice or leave.


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## ARMORMAN (Jun 8, 2008)

mcmuffin said:


> T
> 
> Most gaming clubs have an average age of around 22, with several younger and older members. That means that there will be a mature environment there, probably involving adult humour and typical adult behaviour.


So let me get this straight. People who are around 22 and "mature" cannot control themselves and present themselves as respectful and ....mature (fully developed in body or mind, as a person) around small kids? Restraint is a sign of maturity. Therefore, if the stated people on the club cannot restrain their talk and/or actions; they are not mature.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

*Expensive isn't it*

Just went to the Games Workshop US site, i take this as being US related.

3 x Space Marine Tactical Squad are at $37.25 USD meaning that the child in question threw away $111.75 USD worth of Space Marines. Then add paint, glue and other stuff.

I find it difficult to believe that someone who cries poor allows a child to throw away $111.75USD worth of models.

This is why my gut instinct is telling me something ain't right.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

Yes, because children NEVER break their toys when they are mad.


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## ARMORMAN (Jun 8, 2008)

Let's go back to the thought processes of a kid. They are not logical or reasonable (OK, that seems to cover some gamers as well). And a kid's memory is short term and does not generally get the "worth" of an object(s) so it is highly probable that he pitched them without thinking (I had posted to the uncle that it was too bad he could not have nabbed them).

Also, the kid's dad is gone. So there's only mommy. Mom probably does not know the price of the sets and lets him do it.


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## Imwookie2 (Jul 14, 2010)

Look there is all this talk about maturity on here which is interesting because the only person in the OPs story that wasnt acting his age was the Older guy who yelled at the kid......Really what this boils down to is that the Older guy was a total ass.....


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

ARMORMAN said:


> So let me get this straight. People who are around 22 and "mature" cannot control themselves and present themselves as respectful and ....mature (fully developed in body or mind, as a person) around small kids? Restraint is a sign of maturity. Therefore, if the stated people on the club cannot restrain their talk and/or actions; they are not mature.


Did i say that? The intended meaning of my post was quite clear. Gaming clubs are generally geared towards an older group, who, as enthusiastic as Timmy may or may not have been, would rather not have babysitting duties while they try to carry on a social game and share in some banter. I never said anything about not showing restraint, i hardly condone talking about . .stuff. . when kids are around, but the fact is that,( if this story isnt grossly exaggerated, which i suspect it is)a group of adults playing a game is not a place for kids in the first place, unless the parent is one of the adults involved.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Imwookie2 said:


> Look there is all this talk about maturity on here which is interesting because the only person in the OPs story that wasnt acting his age was the Older guy who yelled at the kid......Really what this boils down to is that the Older guy was a total ass.....


I have re-read the whole thread and one thing sticks out. We have only read one side to this incident.

What it really boils down is that we read a one sided account of an incident of what is suppose to have happened.

We do not get the other side of the incident, the person accused of YELLING at the kid has not told his side of the story and we will never get the other side of the story.

And yet you have with only one side of the story already have considered a statement and passed a guilty judgement on another person that has never give his side of the story.

Passing a guilty verdict on someone without hearing/reading their account of the events is base mob rule mentality.

Also in a COURT OF LAW the accused is given the presumption of innocence until all the evidence of BOTH sides is heard/read and then considered.


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## SaintTom (Nov 26, 2010)

@Achaylus72:

The fact that the kid, despite his age, had 3 squads or so of actual GW models, was invited to play there by another gamer, and only had the proxy for one vehicle, does still make the "adult" in question an A$$.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

SaintTom said:


> @Achaylus72:
> 
> The fact that the kid, despite his age, had 3 squads or so of actual GW models, was invited to play there by another gamer, and only had the proxy for one vehicle, does still make the "adult" in question an A$$.


I have read the whole thread again, even the OP and it makes no mention of the child in question was invited to the Store/Club and now i know it is based in the Renmark area in South Australia and now i can track down the Store in question.

What was actually said as i read it the child in question had been playing there for about three months with 3 Space Marine Tactical Squads, that is all the child had, what i don't understand how the child can play with just 3 Tactical Squads with no HQ considering that the Games Master being a "Rivet Counter". Obviously that "Rivet Counter" would have not allowed that child to play without HQ if this "Rivet Counter" was such a dictator.

Again something just does not add up.


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## SaintTom (Nov 26, 2010)

ARMORMAN said:


> Thats why i encouraged him to 'give it a go' and go to the night as he was invited by another player (who has since left that club over the same incident).


There you go. 

(It's only one page back. k


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## CardShark (Dec 20, 2010)

"They have a cave troll"


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## Antonius (Jan 10, 2012)

Given that in probably most GW stores, there is generally a 50% GW policy on proxy / custom build models, and i guess that using a cardboard tank instead of a plastic one is perhaps seen as "not buying GW and playing instore", when the store have to pay for the upkeep of the store, staff and improving our gaming experience. I guess it could've been very difficult for the GM to make that kind of decision based on what they could see of the model, and even using a GW cardboard box is perhaps a bit of an awkward point : if one gamer brings in a cardboard box model like the OP had (even if its legit), then maybe more might do the same with old shoeboxes etc; this might encourage more people to stop buying stuff, which is bad for GW and ruins our gaming experience in the long run.

However, i must point out that the OP is not a troll, because it is a genuine problem that is facing people who want to do the hobby, and it becomes difficult to draw a fine line between fairness and being harsh. 

For example, I collectively run a small school gaming club with a few of my mates and we have been struck by the awkward fact that some of the newbs in our club have illegal army lists and illegal unit compositions, and is it really fair on people to turn around to them and say "no you can't play" because they don't have the min 1 HQ 2 Troops, instead spending money on something flashy like LRs or sth. Problem here is that it becomes difficult to say "no" to people, but it also make other gamers feel bad, as the army list system is designed to have a degree of balance (so not a 2 LR 500pt list instead of any real units). 

Perhaps the GM should allow it for a short time, so that the child is not unfairly impeded for the purpose of a game?? Unless the GM is the store manager (in this case i will side with the manager as its their store and their decision). If there are multiple newbs in the store/ around, perhaps grouping them together would get around the issue of lack of models. That's how we do it at our club if no newb has a reasonable amount of points for a game on their own (and then its two or more happy gamers enjoying the hobby).

My tuppeny worth
Antonius


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

Dicks like this kill the hobby. They need to take their try-hard wannabe asshole attitudes somewhere it won't damage the future of what is truly a beautiful thing.


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## Ultra1 (Mar 10, 2011)

i've read the thread and will agree that we don't know all the facts. with that said i will comment on people who act "like" the person described. (to be clear, NOT the actual person described, people that ACT like he was described) 

Yes, they exist. most if not all of us have seen them. people like that do not advance the hobby and only exist to prove their awesomeness, which more often than not just isn't there. i usually am able to control my temper, but if someone were to act like that to my son i no kidding would drag him into the back alley and give him a thorough @$$ whooping. i've seen kids come in my local store, they stop to ask questions. i take my time to talk to them about what's going on, and even give the parents advice about how to get into the game in a cost effective manner. because let's face it, when you see 2 people playing an awesome game with some cool painted figures it sounds great. but to be realistic most kids aren't going to want to put in that kind of time. if they do, FAN FREAKING TASTIC! If not, then at least my store owner made some $$ and will ensure he stays open, and the parents won't have spent an arm and a leg.


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## ARMORMAN (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm a bit confused. Back in 4th ed. in the Macragge boxed set (bear with me, it's been years since I looked at it) wasn't the combat squad sized with no HQ? Did 5th make it so that you had to have a minimum of an HQ and 2 squads?

BTW, this was not a GW Store, but an independent retailer where the incident happened.


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## Silens (Dec 26, 2010)

My FLGS has a clean-cut strict 'Games Workshop MODELS only' policy. I was also told I couldn't use a GW model on the same base size as another model (Though in fairness, I looked it up and a Doombull is significantly taller than a Rhinox ). However, the store also has an "



" rule. If you don't have sufficient models for a game in the shop.. They give you them (Temporarily) for you to have a game, but you are not allowed to do this any more than once. This is for EVERYBODY. Me and my friend went into the shop. We're both 17, but he looks more like 19 (At 6'6) and I look more like 14 (At 5'7) and we've both been given around 2000 point armies in the past. We've seen the same happen for the younger members. The store is very kid-friendly, but normally things will try and be arranged so you get like all the under 14s on one table, young adults on another and then proper adults on another. The only exceptions to this rule are veterans night (You only have to be 10, according to the assistant manager, to attend.. But it starts at like 6pm, so the one time I went I was the youngest in the club). At veterans night, it was one of the best environments ever... I was probably lucky to get the more mature people, but they were happy to lend me a measuring tape (Which I didn't have) and didn't mind when I knocked their models over three or four times (I hadn't eaten in around 24 hours, so I was shaking like I had parkinsons) as I was very apologetic.. And only knocked over the same annoyingly placed plastic guardians from the top of a building right next to my troops. We compromised with rules (Which I must say, I'm getting better with) and there was no arguments over "NO! YOUR BLAST TEMPLATE DOESN'T TOUCH THE BASE" "YES IT DOES, THAT'S ANOTHER ENTIRE WOUND!!!". I like to promote this attitude in our school club.. We've even promoted scratch builds to some players (Orks), but iterated that they must be accurate representations. By the time we're done explaining how you need to model them, they're intimidated enough to cough up the £20-30 for the real thing. 

As many have said in this post, we only have one side of the story. I would very much like to see this paper tank, hopefully scaled next to an actual land raider? Then maybe we could reach a little bit of an agreement on whether or not this was acceptable. Someone said earlier that they used a command barge box as a doomsday ark in a game. I would have been a little iffy on this, but probably wouldn't have any quarrels. I proxy stuff all the time in school when trying out new lists, as long as they've got the same bases and roughly the same size. I had four flayed ones pretending to be Immortals the other day, and my opponent (Who I believe is 13 with learning difficulties) was completely fine with it (And it was a bloody close game too! - Fun). Did the uncle of the boy ask in advance if it would be okay, or for that matter did the boy ask the GM? I can easily see a stressed out GM (Having to sort out a large game and such) getting quickly irritable with a stubborn child and snapping. It's no excuse.. But we can't presume that this guy is a complete asshole who instantly began raging at a child for the simple suggestion that he might be allowed to use a Land Raider made to near-perfect specifications, simply out of paper. Just my input.


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## ARMORMAN (Jun 8, 2008)

This brings up a somewhat related question: Where you people game, do they have table or gaming fees and if so how much and is there a time limit?


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

I game at a GW, there is a two hour time limit and the fee is using only GW models.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

I game at my FLGS. no time limit, because there are 17 tables. On club nights there is a 7€ fee per person, that gives us the use of the table, late night opening (11pm) and free tea and coffee. The fee at my local GW is that you have to put up with the staff trying to sell you things.


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## MidnightKid333 (Feb 2, 2011)

does he seriously expect the kid to have the money for a legit tank? What a fool.

I am aware that Warhammer is a serious Hobby for many people, but when it is a kid, you say "awesome tank!" and move the fuck on.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Let me get this right:

Armorman the 10 year old boy gets upset because his GM uncle doesn't like his cardboard tank and kicks him out of the store crying. Then Armorman comes back to the store with his dad and his dad dumps a carrier bad of cheap transformers on the table and call them Tau. The uncle goes mad and tries to kick him out and the police are called to remove the dad.

What has the world come to. Armorman should really be allowed to use his card tank. He is a kid after all and can't necessarily afford the pricier models and he was keen to learn to play, but it now really upset. The dad really shouldn't have come in and aggravated the GM, it really didn't help matters and this exemplifies the lack of reading in this thread. It really put the icing on the cake that the store didn't have models for learners to use. That is the shame of the situation.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

increaso said:


> Let me get this right:
> 
> Armorman the 10 year old boy gets upset because his GM uncle doesn't like his cardboard tank and kicks him out of the store crying. Then Armorman comes back to the store with his dad and his dad dumps a carrier bad of cheap transformers on the table and call them Tau. The uncle goes mad and tries to kick him out and the police are called to remove the dad.
> 
> What has the world come to. Armorman should really be allowed to use his card tank. He is a kid after all and can't necessarily afford the pricier models and he was keen to learn to play, but it now really upset. The dad really shouldn't have come in and aggravated the GM, it really didn't help matters and this exemplifies the lack of reading in this thread. It really put the icing on the cake that the store didn't have models for learners to use. That is the shame of the situation.


You got that so wrong im gonna give you rep


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## Imwookie2 (Jul 14, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> You got that so wrong im gonna give you rep


LOL


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

at my store/club the guy would get his ego stripped of him by my boss (somehow he's good at that) and he would get a serious warning (after 3 warnings you are banned from the store) and this might even have counted as two warnings..that behaviour is unaccaptable in a civilised land.


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## The_Hive_Emperor (Jun 10, 2010)

It seems that most shops are very different from the one I frequent. The "rules" for the gaming floor are the "if the opponent agrees" clause that pops up through the the rule book. That is to say the owners don't really get involved (other than "put a coaster under that drink!"). We never have had any serious problems. I started playing about 5 or 6 years ago, at about 13 or 14 (I was a freshman in highschool, and now I'm a freshman in college to give you a better idea). My first experience playing was one of the regulars setting up a little bit of terrain, giving me a squad of SM and my buddy a small squad of about 12 gaurdsman, and he walked us threw the different phases, moving through cover, leadership, ect. and it was a lot of fun. I think that is the answer to ARMORMAN's question on how to motivate new players. It's not up to the store, it's up to us, the members of this community, to reach out and help to get people into the game.

That being said sometimes you just leave new people to their own devices. There is a kid who started playing at my local store last year and he drove everyone crazy. He was a in middle school (junior-high) and was extremely obnoxious. He would walk up to a game in progress pick up a model to look at it and place down in a completely different spot. He whined when his models were killed in combat. My friend and I would groan to ourselves when he walked in because he really detracted from the fun of being at the shop. So I never really showed him the ropes, just kept to myself and my game The most contact I really had with him was asking him to put my models down when he would pick them up. I don't know if this is overly dickish to say, but there are just some people who I don't particularly want in the hobby. Now to be fair he is a kid and he could very possibly mellow out over time, at which time I would gladly play against him, but not at this point.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

you know GW put those red measuring sticks in the starter sets for people who pick up other peoples models dont you?


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

My god. I want to gut this man.

He should burn for acting like this. 

I am sick of superior assholes treating other people in the hobby like this, having been on the reciving end of it and having seen it before.

In my case, I was a fairly new player, only just started playing, and had been for about six months, getting in a game maybe every two weeks, nice and friendly for the most part, even though I sucked at it.

Then I make a mistake and accepted the offer of a game from a guy (aptly named Richard, you can guess why) who made it his hobby to try and drive me out of the shop by giving me shit about my army fluff, dictating what I could and could not do.

I went up against him, accidentally made a misinterpretation of Sicarius' Rules (that I had not used previously, preferring to use a homebrew character I had made) and thought his powersword was mastercrafted.

It wasn't, I apologized, removed one die from the ones I was rolling, Richard took 10 minutes to berate me about how I should have every single rule in the book for every model completely commited to memory.

I quit the game, he told me I was a whiny bitch, I told him to go to hell.

Let's not tolerate this sort of behavior from supposedly grown men,

Because, while I do like all you guys, really I do, but the sheer superiority that you all seem to have with your interpretation of the story manifesting as it ALWAYS being "The spoiled kid," "that little preteen asshole who doesn't understand" or some other amalagamation baffles me.

Someone in this thread pointed out that it was about maturity and not age, but the fact is you guys keep conflating age with maturity! At my own shop I have seen far more immature 28 year olds than I have immature 12 year olds (got at least three or four of them who just use the tables, occasionally go up against a vet, all very nice and civil, never really bother anybody.)

I love the hobby too, and seeing a poorly assembled model or one put together without care bugs me.

But the fact is we were ALL the little 13 year old who had no money for an army and couldn't paint or model right at some point in our lives, even if we were 5 or 25 at the time.

So I say give the story the benefit of the doubt. From personal experience I speak here, there are alot of assholes out there who really push how much better they are than you because they've been doing it longer. There is one in every group from what I see.

So, let try not to turn into him instead.

(And for the record, you ever notice how "adult" humor usually tends to be considerably more immature and childish than child humor? Food for thought.)
(Addendum, since Bits and Kits managed to respond to my earlier rant before I edited out the mention of torches and pitchforks and tried to actually give a more meaningful argument, here it is for him. "Let go buy our torches and pitchforks!")


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

as long as they are GW pitchforks and torches you will be fine, if you scratchbuild one from a GW box i will yell at you !!!


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

lulz, this thread is still going?


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

From the looks of it I gotta just re-post instead of going back in editing. People never re-read it seems.

EDIT: So much for saving space I just post my thoughts as they come...along... aww crap.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

bitsandkits said:


> as long as they are GW pitchforks and torches you will be fine, if you scratchbuild one from a GW box i will yell at you !!!


Bah, you yell at me, I yell back. Never did take shit from no-one, not even at 10. More than likely I would have been the guy going up to the asshole to tell him to behave himself.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Nicholas Hadrian said:


> Bah, you yell at me, I yell back. Never did take shit from no-one, not even at 10. More than likely I would have been the guy going up to the asshole to tell him to behave himself.


you havent read through the entire thread have you?


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

bitsandkits said:


> you havent read through the entire thread have you?


Actually I have but that one was more a hypothetical suitation. And poorly phrased. If you want my real argument/opinion go to page 21 and re-read my edited post.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

fair enough


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