# Steam Tank... FAQ Writer needs shooting?



## Sethis

Hey guys,

This is my first ever whine thread.

Ok, it's not really a whine thread (please don't ban me!! :laugh: ) but more of a "Um, I have no idea what to do" thread.

So, I play WoC. I have a pretty decent track record so far, losing only to another WoC army and Daemons. And, last week, Empire.

I've played against two other Empire Players, neither of whom offered any problems whatsoever. I lost guys to shooting, but eventually hit combat and did a superb impression of a combine harvester in a wet field.

This third Empire army though, has a Steam Tank.

I thought "Ooh, I get to see what all the hype is about!" without being seriously worried (I'd never played against one before, ever). I thought I could bog it down with a War Shrine, and then maybe attack it with a big block of warriors and win through sheer number of attacks.

Game 1: My Shrine took a cannonball on turn one, failed my 3+ Ward and he rolled a 6. My shaggoth was on the other side of the board, so couldn't really get there in time to help. The steam tank, singlehandedly, destroyed 2 units of 25 Warriors (complete with Sorcerer and BSB). The rest of his army did nothing at all. An average of 15 S6 hits just wiped each unit out in 1-2 turns.

Game 2: My shrine managed to make it into combat with the tank unscathed (passed all my wards), and I'd knocked two wounds off it with a lucky gateway cast (7 S9 hits) already. The shrine lost the combat and broke (even with rerolls from the BSB). The tank then repeated his earlier trick of destroying an entire warrior unit (the other warriors were wiped out to a man when his hellblaster misfired and emptied 30 rounds into them) leaving me with a lone Sorc and BSB who had left the unit (they saw what was coming!).

I cannot comprehend how anyone in their right mind thinks that a single 300pt rare choice should be able to walk through ~1500pts of elite infantry including a lord and hero choice and take little to no damage. My army has no answer to it. Literally, none. Apart from a gateway cast with 11 or 12 strength. I can't even think of anything in the Chaos book that can reliably kill it.

What do you do? How the **** do you kill them?

(And please don't reply with "Lore of Metal, duh" because I'm not swapping to Metal just to deal with the one unit in one army when this is supposed to be an all comers list)


----------



## Tim/Steve

Ah, not the reason that I thought the FAQ writer needs shooting... but a valid alternative.
Last few days I've been thinking about the steam tank after reading through the empire FAQ the other day:



> Steam Tank, Magic phase
> Ignore this paragraph.


Ok, so non-strength magic can hurt the steam tank.. great


> Q. Can the spell Pit of Shades from the Lore of Shadows affect the
> Steam Tank? (p51)
> A. No.


Huh... and why not? If the steam tank no longer has any special magic protection then it should be down to an I3 test vs death... I have absolutely no idea why the pit of shades can't affect the steam tank. At least I assume you use the commander initiative, since it is a chariot now...

Tricking the steam tank into dangerous terrain, characteristic tests such as dwellers or purple sun or just throwing about a billion attacks at it will eventually kill it.... lore of metal works too. WoC dont really have a lot of choice- you can send in units of marauders with great weapons, flails (or just go for numbers and dont try for armour mods) or you can take the lores of metal/death (I assume you can take them)... mebbe a chaos giant could help you out (I only remember my own slavegiants giants rules... and they are pretty useless vs a steam tank).
Other then that, to really beat it up in combat you are looking at D3-D6 wound weapons and try to get lucky, armour ignoring attacks (lots of them) or just get S9-10 attacks, but then I doubt many can get S up that high (my ogres can if I really tried... but otehr then steam tanks there is no reason to).


----------



## Khorothis

Well the Steam Tank is not immune to magic, right? Spirit Leech comes to mind, along with the Pendulum, Melkoth's Miasma and Okkam's Mindrazor. I know it sucks to drop the Lore of Tzeentch or to get another Sorcerer Lord solely for Lore of Shadow but I think its worth the effort.


----------



## Alexious

Sethis,

The Empire Steam Tank is a powerful weapon no doubt. I run 1 in an Empire army if I play 3k. However its now possible for you to have to face 2 at a time if the Empire player has decided to go that way.

The weakness however of the Empire list/s itself though is in the Steam Tank itself. Its the only Empire choice that is quite tough... quite able to punch through a lot of stuff. Everything else in the empire army your facing has a low toughness value or has a low Intiative or mediocre leadership. 

The altar of Sigmar is the only other object that is tough and has good LD value. That means fighting the empire can be handled in several ways... the first is to shut down the steam tank as a threat. I have seen this done even with units large enough of skaven slaves. You don't need to kill it... you just need to stop it or lead its focus to something else. The great advantage is the fact you can hit it and kill it with its T10. Yes... that can be tough... but to my knowledge its not immune to KB. Thats the inherent weakness in the thing. Treat the steam tank like a 300 odd point character as a target to be taken down. I hate WOC for this reason... they can be tooled with so much so differently from player to player..... even to the point of ugh what the hell am I going to have to compensate for now.... The Empire player has really limited options. He has to outshoot you... he has to keep you away.... he has to protect his fragile yet game altering wizards using basic lores.... focus on these weaknesses in his force and the 300 odd point steam tank is a small consideration if you can tie it up or send something to stop it.

As for Lores etc.... totally respect you dont want to change lores. BUT... lore of metal is an almost must for an all comers list in 8th edition if you can get access to it. It affects so many armies from dwarves, to empire to WOC to DE to HE... its just too good not to take it comparatively when your not sure what your facing.


----------



## maddermax

Tim/Steve said:


> Ah, not the reason that I thought the FAQ writer needs shooting... but a valid alternative.
> Last few days I've been thinking about the steam tank after reading through the empire FAQ the other day:
> 
> 
> Ok, so non-strength magic can hurt the steam tank.. great
> 
> Huh... and why not? If the steam tank no longer has any special magic protection then it should be down to an I3 test vs death... I have absolutely no idea why the pit of shades can't affect the steam tank. At least I assume you use the commander initiative, since it is a chariot now...



Because Pit of Shades is "Special", obviously, and the writer of the FAQ is probably a bit "Special" too.

Anyway, steam tank will kill you unless you can get lore of death (Purple Sun autokills it, other spells are very useful against it) or Lore of metal. The Dwellers below has no effect on it (it autopasses all characteristics tests besides I tests), so outside of those, you'll have a bloody hard time. It's just a bit ridiculous they created an essentially invincible tank, where having the right magic combo auto-kills it. Its like: Have the right spell? Autowin. Don't have it? Fail. 

There are ways around it, of course, but the thing is nothing is as sure as just having a Lore of Death caster.


----------



## Durzod

Lore of Nurgle should do wonders. You're assured of Getting Buboes, which'll be a wound with no armour save. If you can get Cloying Quagmire off on it, it has to pass an I test (50% at I 3) and if it fails it has to fail its 1+ armour save or else sink into the swamp.
Can't remember off hand the rest of the lore, but I'm sure there's some other nasty surprises for the steam tank in there.


----------



## maddermax

Durzod said:


> Lore of Nurgle should do wonders. You're assured of Getting Buboes, which'll be a wound with no armour save. If you can get Cloying Quagmire off on it, it has to pass an I test (50% at I 3) and if it fails it has to fail its 1+ armour save or else sink into the swamp.
> Can't remember off hand the rest of the lore, but I'm sure there's some other nasty surprises for the steam tank in there.


The Steamtank auto-fails I tests. I don't know what Quagmire does, but if it causes an I test, it's probably win against STanks.


----------



## The Son of Horus

Cloying Quagmire actually just reads, "Remove target Steam Tank from the game." Since you can cast spells with up to six dice, you just miscast the thing and shrug when your sorcerer blows his own head off in the process. It sucks that it comes to that, but that's really just the simplest solution for the things out of Warriors of Chaos. 

The other option Chaos can bring to the table which can deal with the steam tank decently is, oddly enough, the giant. I've seen other Chaos players have great success using a giant against steam tanks, and while I haven't given it a try myself, the numbers seem to work out so that the giant has a decent chance of dealing with it effectively. Between very likely hitting the thing with a club and thunderstomp, you'll be rolling enough dice to break the thing open (or at least render it ineffective-- you only need to get it down to five wounds or so to get it to stop being a useful weapon for the Empire player.) If you try to go that route, the Mark of Khorne is a must, purely for the extra point of strength it gives the giant. 

If you're a gambler, the Hellcannon can also deal with a steam tank if it manages to get a shot to hit. You -will- make a wreck of the thing if it hits, but...making it hit is its own set of problems. That's sort of a third string defense against the steam tank, though, purely because it's unreliable to begin with, and you'll only get one shot before the steam tank barrels over it, or the Empire player shoots it with a cannon, etc.

The final option, which isn't strictly a Warriors of Chaos option, is to look into allied troops. At 3000 points and above, you can bring allied troops in your army, and interestingly enough, Skaven have some stuff which can more than make up any deficit you have in dealing with the steam tank. The Warpstone Cannon comes to mind, in particular, although Jezzails and Ratling Gun weapons teams also are quite workable against a steam tank because of their relatively high strength. Still looking for sixes to wound the thing, but with a stiff negative to the armor save, you'll see most of those sixes go through. Those aren't expensive allies to invest in, either.


----------



## Sethis

Warriors of Chaos only have access to Death and Fire on Hero choices, and Death, Fire and Shadow on Lord choices. And the WoC lores.

I really didn't want to move away from Tzeentch as a Lore, because I've never needed Death or Shadow before. I have no difficulty killing enemy troops without the Debuffs from Shadow, and my Characters are hard enough to kill enemy characters head on, so I don't need the Death sniping abilities.

I sometimes take Festus, so I could hope for Quagmire on him... But again, he's not in my all comers list, so the only way for me to win is basically to write an "Anti Steam Tank List" which seems a bit pointless to me.

I can't take allies because this is 2000pts, and I probably wouldn't take any even if I could.

Things I can see in the Chaos Dex that can reliably hurt it:

Hellcannon (direct hit only)
Lord with Glaive of Putrefaction and Potion of Strength (for armour mod), hope for a lucky six.
10-12 Gateway cast.
Giant

I don't own a Hellcannon or a Giant, because the Giant sucks and the Hellcannon is too unreliable for me. That leaves me with changing the gear on my Lord and hoping for a lucky 6 to wound, or a solid gateway cast.

I tried bogging it down/ignoring it, and neither option works. The shrine almost always loses the combat due to taking one or more wounds while inflicting none in return, and I don't have anything else that could possibly last any number of turns against 10-18 S6 hits. Everything else in my army is on 6s to wound, and he'll get some kind of save, which he needs to fail 10 of.

Fundamentally, I object to a unit that can single-handedly wipe out my entire army with only the help of a Hellblaster and a unit of Pistoliers. I don't even comprehend how anyone can be deluded enough to think that it is balanced. Did they actually playtest the Tank against an army that doesn't have Shadow/Death lores or Cannon? Why did they even change it?

Well, I guess it's time to write my "Anti-tank" Fantasy list... Either that or I start playing Empire and take two of them myself...


----------



## Aramoro

Until you play against someone with Purple Sun and get them vanished. 

Aramoro


----------



## Putch.

Aramoro said:


> Until you play against someone with Purple Sun and get them vanished.
> 
> Aramoro



But thats the whole point Sethis is making, and I agree, The instant you say "Until you cast purple sun" You reveal the imbalance to some degree. The it isnt just STanks, the instant you need to start changing your army just to counter one unit or ability is the instant something is at least slightly imbalanced to me. 


As for suggestions of beating it, Great weapon potion of str? But thats so highly situation as well, and I cant remember exactly but I dont think your lord would make enough attacks to kill it while the potion lasts..


----------



## Aramoro

That was kind of my point as well coming from the Purple Sun game ruiner thread. 

For blowing it up maybe Cannons would do a good job, or mooks to try and slow it's advance forlornly. Masses of cheap guys is maybe an option, it doesn't really matter if you're S2 or S8 you're on 6's to wound it. it gets an Armour save but as long as you have 1 Rank you'll be Stubborn. 

Aramoro


----------



## Tim/Steve

Im not sure about the characteristic tests auto-pass/auto-fail... the FAQ says nothing about them. I assume they still work the same way they did, so purple sun FTW.


----------



## Aramoro

But Pit of Shades FTL. 

Aramoro


----------



## Whizzwang

you think it's bad now?

Try facing them under 7th ed rules, no magic works and wounding capped out after so much so it was occasioanlly impossible to wound it.

Nowadays you always wound on 6's and it's magically defences have been shattered. Throwing anything that's "tiny strength - no save" is an option. Don't know the WoC magic well enough to know if they have that though.

Warhounds + poison might be a nice cheap option, it'll get it's monster save though


----------



## Khorothis

Whizzwang said:


> Warhounds + poison might be a nice cheap option, it'll get it's monster save though


You do realise that from a common sense perspective this is beyond absurd? Imagine a big pack of dogs eating and pissing away at the Steam Tank and eventually ruining it. 

This is so stupid, it might just work.  :laugh:

I wish I could stop laughing. :laugh:


----------



## Aramoro

Unfortunately you Auto-hit the Steamtank in combat so you never get to use your poison. 

Aramoro


----------



## Putch.

Can it be heroic killing blowed?  Because as of this instant it appears to be the MOST badass thing in all of warhammer.


----------



## Aramoro

It can indeed as far a I know. That why I was making a Heroic Killing Blow General for my Bret Army , to Heroicly Lance a Steam tank to death. 6's to Wound with rerolls, the STank get no save as well.

Or just charge it with the Green Knight

Aramoro


----------



## Blue Liger

I'm actually no longer worried about steam tanks due to being able to wound anything thing now with any strength, though as a We player I now hate cannons and hellstorms more - Thanks pre measure and no guess!


----------



## maddermax

Whizzwang said:


> you think it's bad now?
> 
> Try facing them under 7th ed rules, no magic works and wounding capped out after so much so it was occasioanlly impossible to wound it.
> 
> Nowadays you always wound on 6's and it's magically defences have been shattered. Throwing anything that's "tiny strength - no save" is an option. Don't know the WoC magic well enough to know if they have that though.
> 
> Warhounds + poison might be a nice cheap option, it'll get it's monster save though


In 7th, you could just throw a unit with great weapons at it, and have a reasonable chance of success. Or a Stone Thrower, which could do D6 wounds on a hit, wounding on 2s. Or a Bolt Thrower, which could Wound on a 4+, D3 wounds. Now, all of those options are wounding on 6s, meaning most things are useless against it, except for magic which ignores toughness, and very rare combinations (like HKB) which can insta-kill the STank.

It just seems like a silly change to me, put in for the hell of it. Now, it can walk around freely, unless an opponent has a specific counter, when it simply dies instantly.


----------



## Sethis

Blue Liger said:


> I'm actually no longer worried about steam tanks due to being able to wound anything thing now with any strength


Which sounds fine, except it has a 1+ save as well... and is killing about 15 of your guys per turn.

You can get 4 models in B2B, including a champion. For normal infantry that's 9 attacks. That's 1 wound. That's 6 rounds of combat before you inflict a wound that gets past the armour save.

Wounds caused by you: 1
Wounds caused by it: 45 (It only attacks every other round, 15 hits per round on average, depending on how many steam points they go for).

Show me any "bog down" unit in the game that can cope with that ratio of wounds.

Even for Warriors of Chaos, still only 13 attacks, 2 wounds, 3 rounds of combat before he fails a save. And then it kills your 20-points-per models on 2s with no save.

I don't see why they didn't leave it at T6... at least then my Halberd Warriors are on 5s, my 300pt+ Lord can damage it on 4s and my 285pt Shaggoth can hurt it on 2s with it's 5 attacks (and the Tank hits it back with the aforementioned 15 hits wounding it on 3s with no save, so probably kills it outright).


----------



## Tim/Steve

Im just scared shitless about steam tanks... the grand total of counters with the WE book is the amber spear spell from beasts (requiring me to take a spellweaver, lore of beasts and to get the right spell)... even then I would have to cast it. My ogres are slightly better off with enough armour mads to take the tank down to 3+/4+ save in combat but Im still on 6s to wound. My magic missile is reasomably effective since its 2D6 S2 hits with no armour saves.. but its still only 1 wound average a turn (and not too hard to dispel). I can cast it several times, but it doubtful I would have the butchers to be able to do it...

In the old rules the stank was hard and hit hard. Now its either pathetically easy or near impossible to kill.


----------



## Blue Liger

I agree with you both it would have been better left as T6 and possibly old rules, though I don't GW looked at the probability of it being wounded and then failing it's save, still though with random dice outcomes if you can wound it enough a 1 on a die is still a fail, also as a We player I'd be running around shooting it never combating it.

T/S another way you could wound it with We is using a Alter Noble with machine gun bow set up and then to further buff it take the spell weaver with lore of beasts but I do look at that and go hmm my 200 odd point alter vs a 300pt steam tank that oly has a chnace of wounding it...yeah maybe not


----------



## Vaz

The guy who wrote the List felt like being an arsewipe. For example, multiple Altars of Sigmar, Tanks, (there were, what? 12 in total?)... They NEED to reintroduce limits now that there's no limitation other than percentages.

T6/7 should be absolute limit. There's not a chance that the Steam Tank is tougher than a dragon - especially considering how many cornices these things have. If I'm honest, they should intorduce an Armour Value for it - shooting attacks from the front are T8/10, but against those from the side, T6/8, and T4/6 against those from the rear. Due to not being able to turn, CC attacks always hit the rear toughness. It's armour save is as follows; 1+ to the front, 3+ to the side, 5+ to the rear, and vs CC attacks. Personally, I think it should be upped to 380-400 as well.

Anyways...

To deal with it, Cloying Quagmire is perfect - Fail an Initiative Test, then to survive it must fail it's 1+ Armour Save. Basically, it has a 59% chance to survive - but again, it's just one of those things which is reliant on chance.

Buboes causes a wound as well. What's it's strength value? Can't remember off the top of my head. Either way - a Curse of the Leper might be able to make a bit of dent in it if it's S4 or less.

Hellcannon is ideal.

Alternatively, I've found that the 8th Edition Book is very heavy. It works, if you find a prick willing to take it in 1500 games.


----------



## Barnster

What about using a lord with giant blade (new common magic item), provided you cause a couple of wounds with gateway he should turn it into scrap metal, even more so if you have the points to put him on a dragon


----------



## Vaz

Lord is then S8. Either way, he's still wounding on 6's. Might as well give him +3 Attacks.


----------



## Tim/Steve

Chaos Lord in a unit with the standard of discipline (if you can have someone else as the general.. if not no worry, you just lose the general's Ld bubble) and then cast okkam's mindrazor... lots and lots of auto-hitting S10 attacks.

Randomly thinking about other ways to get S10 got me thinking- you can do it with ogres too: Tyrant with siegebreaker and "giantbreaker" (55pts of magic items) is S9 and as long as the stank doesnt get the I3 of the captain then it auto-hits and does D6 wounds... quick buff with bullgorger can make him S10. 5 S10 auto hit, D6 wound hits probably make him the best combat solution to the stank anywhere (other then non-ogre giants)... but I cant literally think of no other reason to take that tyrant build.

Talking of giants- whoever said earlier that you get their attacks and then thunderstomp was a little off: you cant thunderstomp a steamtank... stomp/thunderstomp only works against infantry/beasts/swarms. Its not a great loss though anyway since it would be an average of .3W a turn...


----------



## Vaz

Okkams Mindrazor requires another Lord though - at the best part of 700pts between the two when given their equipment, that's reserved for 3K games.


----------



## Sethis

Even with a Lord... It's S9 at best (Chaos has no Ld 10 apart from Special Characters) so back onto 5s. Still 6s for anyone other than a Lord (Ld 8 on everything else).

And re Okkams, I thought you used the model's base leadership? Doesn't the rulebook say that "you can use the general's leadership for leadership based tests within 12"..."? Okkams is not a test, therefore you cannot use his leadership to determine your Strength?

Regardless, if I took Lore of Shadows I'd just pendulum it repeatedly anyway... I can't be guaranteed to kill it even with S9, and it's knocking out 15 Warriors with impact hits before I even attack.


----------



## Vaz

Standard of Discipline = +1 Ld.

It states that models use their Ld - nothing about base leadership, only their leadership, so benefits from Discipline (S9), but you're correct that they don't use the Lord's Leadership for the unit.


----------



## maddermax

Vaz said:


> To deal with it, Cloying Quagmire is perfect - Fail an Initiative Test, then to survive it must fail it's 1+ Armour Save. Basically, it has a 59% chance to survive - but again, it's just one of those things which is reliant on chance.


STank autofails I checks, so it has an 85% chance of being a dead steamtank (just needs to fail it's save). As Son of Horus said, the spell should just read "remove target steamtank from game".


----------



## Shadowfane

The one time I faced a steam tank was in 7th, at the doubles warhamer tournament at nottingham, with me using skaven and my partner using beastmen - the guy using the steamtank was somewhat horrifed when I fed it a unit of slaves and proceeded to bombard the ensuing close combat with my globadiers.... "Whats that, you say? a fixed value to wound with no armour save?"..... 
(Yes, I realise this doesnt help the OP, but since I've never faced one with anything but skaven, and only 750 points of skaven at that, thats about the only thing I can contribute to this conversation....so, sorry  )


----------



## Creon

There is the Wood Elf Sword that autowounds, and then does a 1d6 ld vs ld no saves of any sort for further wounds. That can take down a STANK fast. As can the Runefang. Honestly, the worst thing a steam tank faces is 20 skinks with blowpipes. Or any poisoned ranged attack with enough behind it. Sure the save is 1+, but make about 10 saves a round and it rapidly dies. As for Chaos, sure, you're limited on doing things about it. Flank charges with Knights is likely the best that you can expect.


----------



## Vaz

Nobody ever takes that sword though - it's way too situational, and you don't want to put a WElf Lord anywhere near a challenge with T3, and a maximum save of 4+/5++.

Thanks for the Qualification, maddermax.


----------



## Creon

Oh, I take it all the time. But then again, I'm well known to be crazy in some of my army builds. Especially with the 2 lord 2500 point army being legal,


----------



## Vaz

Fair enough - I suppose I run the water list a bit more - Vanguard Glade Riders and Scouting Waywatchers are just too good to miss out on these days.


----------



## kain1989

I just played the steam tank with my wood elves earlier today, and i got him to charge my dryads, he killed half of them, and they broke, then i counter charged it with a treeman, for 5 turns they just beat on eachother. I know that doesn't help chaos, but if you can put 3 wounds on it, he'll have to conserve steam points, and it hampers the effectiveness, so I doubt many armys will get victory points from it, more like the idea will be to deny it making its points back.


----------



## Sethis

Creon said:


> Flank charges with Knights is likely the best that you can expect.


Are you kidding? Instead of losing a 20pt model 100% of the time, I'd lose a 50pt model 50% of the time, which is worse, point for point. And they wouldn't even hold it up for a turn because they don't have steadfast.

I might just have to take Lore of Nurgle in an identical list, and use that when fighting him. Sucks, but there we go.


----------



## Tim/Steve

Creon said:


> There is the Wood Elf Sword that autowounds, and then does a 1d6 ld vs ld no saves of any sort for further wounds. That can take down a STANK fast. As can the Runefang. Honestly, the worst thing a steam tank faces is 20 skinks with blowpipes. Or any poisoned ranged attack with enough behind it. Sure the save is 1+, but make about 10 saves a round and it rapidly dies. As for Chaos, sure, you're limited on doing things about it. Flank charges with Knights is likely the best that you can expect.


Cant see the spirit sword working TBH- you have 4 attacks, which will all hit and wound, then the stank has a 2+ save to fail. SO you might do a wound. The you have 1D6+10, and he has 1D6+10 and whoever scores higher does that many wound to the opponent... with equal Ld you are just as likely to wound yourself as the enemy (and since you would need to do another 9 wounds to the enemy, vs the 3 he needs on you its unlikely you'll win). Although take a potion of strength and you'll be doing well. S7 means that the stank will have 4 5+ saves to make, and then is likely to be rolling for the spirit sword 3 times.. which is pretty likely to kill your highborn, but if you are taking a few more wounds off the tank you'll have ended its usefulness for the game.


I always think its the first 4 wounds on a steam tank that are the important ones. If you can cause 3-4 wounds on a stank then its usefulness will mostly be ended. Most of the people I play against dont risk more then a 1in3 chance of overpowering the stank... so if you do 3 wounds they'll normally only try for 3 steam points (or 2 steam points if you do 4W). So thats knocked the stank down to 2/5 or 3/5 effectiveness... plus then it'll start to rack up wounds on itself, fast becoming suicidal.
With the aim of doing a handful of wounds onto the stank most armies can combine auto-wound weapons with a potion of strength to charge in, cause lots of wounds and have a decent armour mod from the extra strength. If your lord is in a decent sized unit of chaff (cheapest stuff armound) then the reduced number of impact attacks shouldn't kill his unit too fast (and with his Ld he should stay there).. you are then forcing quite a few saves from teh tank each turn so should be taking about 1 wound a turn. So, do ~3 wounds when you charge.. then do 1 a turn and the steam tank should only really get 1 decent set of impact hits on you before its taken so many wounds as to need luck to get any steam points (at 5W its only 50-50 on managing to get 2 steam points... and 2D3 impact hits probably wont be enough to kill a rank).


As for chaos knights- NOOOOOooooo, keep them well clear of the steam tank. Marauders are the way to go for counter-units, preferably with great weapons and frenzy (ignore terror and extra attacks). Get into th flank and you can have upto 18 S5 attacks (could go 24 with hoard... but steadfast is more important). You should still only be doing 1W a turn... but get a little lucky and you'll take enough to start knackering its effectiveness (and if nothing else you have your cheapest unit holding it up)... you could then have a lord in there to try to up the damage or put in festus to reduce the damage you'll be taking.
3 ranks, banner and 1 wound a turn means that the stank would need an average of 3 steam points to draw... throw in festus and it'll take 5 to beat you, and losing 5-6 marauders a turn is next to nothing. ANy magic that makes the steam tank have a worse save (either -vs to it, or +vs strength to the marauders) will help.

Im not sure how poison works against WS0 enemies... the rules say all attacks hit automatically, but it doesnt say you dont roll to hit. So Im wondering if you would roll the 'to hit' dice, with them all automatically passing but with 6s being poisoned. Opinions?


----------



## Creon

If you don't roll to hit, you can't poison the enemy.


----------



## mynameisgrax

Steam tanks are just broken, in my opinion, and I mean that in every sense of the word. They're not only so powerful that they're broken, they're also in many circumstances so easy to destroy, it's broken.

Almost nothing will normally hurt a steam tank. You need a 6 to wound and a 1 for their armor save. That means you need to inflict 36 hits to normally cause 1 wound (unless the strength of the attack is 5 or greater). You can only fit 4 infantry models in base contact with it normally, so you get 8 models attacking it, usually resulting in 8 hits. At that rate, you'll need 4-5 turns in order to inflict a single wound. If it's a horde or if they have spears you'll inflict a single wound in 3. A horde with spears might do it in 2, but it's still only a single wound. Obviously, this won't work very well, beyond simply tying it up so it can't move, at the expense of your block of troops.

On the other hand, enemy cannons, poisoned shooting attacks, and many magic spells will simply erase the steam tank in a single turn. All things considered, I don't think it's a good unit for the game. It's an all or nothing 300 point bet that your opponent can't deal with it. If you're wrong, then you're out 300 points. If you're right, then you won't exactly make any friends.


----------



## Tim/Steve

Creon said:


> If you don't roll to hit, you can't poison the enemy.


Well yes, thats certainly true... but not really the question that I asked.

You must roll 'to hit' dice in order to get a poison hit... but I can't see anywhere where the rulebook says that hitting automatically means you dont roll the dice. Sure there is no point to do so as all results from 1-6 hit, and therefore we skip the useless roles... but with poison it does matter and I cannot see any reason why they dont get the roll anyway. Its like the old re-roll success and failed dice... technically you have to roll the dice, pick them all up and roll them again, we usually just skip the first round because it has no effect.

I know this might sound like a stretch... but that's just bias kicking in. There is no fluff reason why having an opponent (thats vulnerable to poison) not dodging your attacks would mean that they dont get poisoned... and as far as I can see there is no rulebook reason either (other then history).
I would also point out that since I play armies that have no WS0 and no poisoned attacks I am about as neutral as it gets...


----------



## Sethis

Tim/Steve said:


> So Im wondering if you would roll the 'to hit' dice, with them all automatically passing but with 6s being poisoned. Opinions?


That sounds like a good (if not RAW) solution.


----------



## blackspine

As mentioned before, you could look into allied armies.

In my local GW, there's an empire player that uses the steam tank in EVERY army, sometimes double tanks. 
Reading into these mammoth threats for beastmen, (no warmachines, etc) I was thinking of ways to counter it. 
Many people have mentioned essentially 'tar pitting' it. Costly and could ultimately fail, seeing that it's plowed through 2 units of warriors.

Beastmen armies have acess to the following item. 
*stone crusher mace:* gives +3 to wielders str, and versus chariots/ warmachines (specifically notes STEAMTANKS/ altars/ corpse carts) it is 10 str.​ it is expensive, but on a lord specifically meant to fight an empire unit, this is quite handy. With primal fury, this could knock off boatloads of wounds to render the steamtank inoperable. 

Not sure if it helps your situation, but that's the only real counter that I have in my branch of the Chaos armies.


----------



## Vaz

As Orcs, you have the Runesword equivalent, and Sword of Slashin should prove useful. 

As to automatic hits, you don't get to roll for KB on successful Poisons (Tomb Scorpion), so I don't see why you get to roll to see if poison takes effect if you automatically hit.


----------



## Whizzwang

has anyone mentioned bloodcurdling roar yet?

2D6 hits, no save sounds fairly strong for Chaos. So what if they're S1, most things need 6's to wound anyway.


----------



## rodmillard

My usual solution to the Stank problem is a 85 point hero choice. Necromancer (Raise Dead & Vanhels) with the Sceptre de Noirot. Raise a unit of d6+9 zombies within 8" of the tank, charge, repeat in the next magic phase and proceed to tarpit the damn thing for the entire game.

If I'm playing my dwarves its slayer bait (gotta love the Slayer rule). I always field a couple of naked Dragonslayers to deal with precisely this kind of problem.

My HE have the hardest time against it, because my all-comers lore selection (fire & high) don't really have anything that can deal with it. Having said that, I find a sun dragon to the face often offends.


----------



## Tim/Steve

bloodcurdling roar should do well, especially on a disc with a 4++ standard (3++ with MoT) since you will be getting close and will likely be getting a cannon to the head. Im actually kinda jealous.. its better then by ogre counter 

VC dont need to worry about stanks, they can just tarpit it. Zombies are the best anti-stank unit in the game simply becaus ethey are so cheap (or free). A stank will usually kill pretty much the same number of enemies no matter what its fighting... so a ~20pt WOC, 15pt elf or 0pt zombie will all die equally easily... but the zombies lose you nothing. Hell the only thing comparable to zombies would be skaven slaves or gnoblars... but either way they need a general and probably a bsb close by.. while zombies just dont care.


----------



## Vaz

How do they do versus Toughness Tests? If so, I'd consider Galrauch to be doing perfect-ish.


----------



## maddermax

Vaz said:


> How do they do versus Toughness Tests? If so, I'd consider Galrauch to be doing perfect-ish.


Stanks Auto-pass everything but Initiative I'm afraid, so no dice.


----------



## Vaz

Less than, then.


----------



## tyco

I would try and not engage it, or if I did, go with a chunky block of maurauders or something with a bsb nearby. I don't know exactly how fast or manouverable it is but can't you just go past it and smash the squishy infantry in the face? It is only one unit...


----------



## Aramoro

It can reliably without wounding it generate 5 Steam Points a turn which propel it 15" causing 6D3 S6 Impact Hits when it makes contact. So yes you can try to ignore it, but it will find you. When it does it will probably take 1-2 turns to grind your unit to death. 

If you managed to charge it with Marauders, they Auto hit I reckon you would get 6 wide 18 attacks in total (assuming MoK), so 3 Wounds for which he get 1+ saves. So 1 Wound every 2 Rounds of combat. In his turn he can power up the tank, use the Steam Cannon which will hit, say 10 guys, kill three, then do a mear 4D3 impact hits and kill 6-7 of your guys. So he will kill 10 every two rounds to your 1 wound every 2 rounds. 

Aramoro


----------



## maddermax

tyco said:


> I would try and not engage it, or if I did, go with a chunky block of maurauders or something with a bsb nearby. I don't know exactly how fast or manouverable it is but can't you just go past it and smash the squishy infantry in the face? It is only one unit...


It has to declare charges as normal, but has 15" movement at full steam, without any randomness, and whatever it hits is charged and will take d3 Impact hits per steam point it used plus an extra d3 (so 6d3 at full steam) for starters. It can't move through difficult terrain, but ignores obstacles in it's path. It simply cannot be ignored/avoided. It also has a cannon and a gun for those turns it's not immediately able to crush you beneath it's wheels.

Oh, and it's guns can be fired in close combat, if it feels the need. And one of it's weapons is a template weapon that doesn't allow armour saves, which it can fire for a single steam point, just for when you really feel the need to clear out the plebs. It's possible to tarpit, certainly, but you'll really want a very cheap unit, and hope that you can get to it, before it gets to your more valuable targets. Or just take Purple sun, and autokill it of course...

[Edit: and armoro get's in first with the explaination while I'm looking up the rules again ]


----------



## Blue Liger

Aramoro said:


> It can reliably without wounding it generate 5 Steam Points a turn which propel it 15" causing 6D3 S6 Impact Hits when it makes contact. So yes you can try to ignore it, but it will find you. When it does it will probably take 1-2 turns to grind your unit to death.
> 
> If you managed to charge it with Marauders, they Auto hit I reckon you would get 6 wide 18 attacks in total (assuming MoK), so 3 Wounds for which he get 1+ saves. So 1 Wound every 2 Rounds of combat. In his turn he can power up the tank, use the Steam Cannon which will hit, say 10 guys, kill three, then do a mear 4D3 impact hits and kill 6-7 of your guys. So he will kill 10 every two rounds to your 1 wound every 2 rounds.
> 
> Aramoro


You see this is what everyone keeps saying but they fail to realise yes it's a 1+ save and in a perfect logical world of probability if we let a calculator do the work it would take as long as you say, but in this game you can never underestimate the chances (or probability that all those ones may come at once or within a a few turns rather than 10000 turns.

I'm also very aware that you could charge and it could never lose a wound, I just think everyone is looking too much at the your never going to get through it in 2 turns of comabt with a block of 50 or 100 men etc...


----------



## Aramoro

To be honest the block of 50 is the best option. You'll remain Stubborn for most of the combat as it grinds you to death and you'll probably be able to throw some wound on it. As long as you're Stubborn on a decent value you'll be ok. Also you get two goes at stabbing it for every 1 go it has of grinding you, albeit it is more effective at the old grinding. 

But hoping against hope that he rolls an improbable number of 1's is not a good strategy for victory. Otherwise I might as well say i'm going to kill it with my Bretonian Bowmen, 5's to hit, 6's to wound and 1+ save I reckon if I ignore statistics i'll kill it in a couple of turns. 

Aramoro


----------



## Blue Liger

Oh I understand where you are coming from, I'm not disregarding the statistics just saying that it is very possible it may be damaged enough to cause it to become practically useless in the first 2 turns


----------



## Masked Jackal

Blue Liger said:


> Oh I understand where you are coming from, I'm not disregarding the statistics just saying that it is very possible it may be damaged enough to cause it to become practically useless in the first 2 turns


And for those of us with bad luck? The fact that you can throw a fully ranked up unit at this thing, and have such a small chance to win is just ridiculous, and the fact that monster-killers and the like can't hurt this thing that much more either, is just as ridiculous.


----------



## effigy22

Blue Liger said:


> Oh I understand where you are coming from, I'm not disregarding the statistics just saying that it is very possible it may be damaged enough to cause it to become practically useless in the first 2 turns


Its also possible that your opponent might spontaneously combust mid game meaning you win by default.


----------



## Aramoro

Masked Jackal said:


> And for those of us with bad luck? The fact that you can throw a fully ranked up unit at this thing, and have such a small chance to win is just ridiculous, and the fact that monster-killers and the like can't hurt this thing that much more either, is just as ridiculous.


Luckily it's Unbreakable so you can never actually win until it's dead, with it's 10 Wounds , Toughness 10 and 1+ save. That said by the time you get it to 6-7 wounds it's severely impaired. 2-3 Wounds left and it's essentially useless you only need to kill it if you want the VP's

Aramoro


----------



## Tim/Steve

Am I right to think that the steam tank must try to generate at least 1 steam point a turn? I so then by the time you take it down to 3W left it's almost certain to kill itself (assuming there is enough of the game left).

@effigy- put down the lighter... flaming opponents online is bad enough, doing it in person is just rude.


----------



## Aramoro

Nah it can opt to not generate any steam. But then it just sits and does nothing. Basically your safe steam points are Current wounds - 6. Once you're down to half wounds the most you can possibly generate is 4 and so on. 

Once you can hurt it then it starts to lose functionality very quickly indeed. 



Aramoro


----------



## Crimzzen

LoL + Steam Tank makes me cry. Useless comment I know but I'm too busy crying!


----------



## Tim/Steve

Aramoro said:


> Nah it can opt to not generate any steam. But then it just sits and does nothing. Basically your safe steam points are Current wounds - 6. Once you're down to half wounds the most you can possibly generate is 4 and so on.
> 
> Once you can hurt it then it starts to lose functionality very quickly indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> Aramoro


Aw nuts, I was hoping that if I did half the job it would do the other half for me 
I think it'll be pretty rare to find an army capable of taking 10 T6 1+AS wounds in the space of 5-7 turns (purple sunning the stank doesnt take wounds)... if it still had the magical protection this thing would be the safest VP in the game by a huge margin. It probably keeps that title even with the huge vulnerability to magic.


----------



## jigplums

i have a strong suspiscion that my mate will be adding his stank into his campaign army after i beat him this sunday. Luckily im using skaven so i have a few options to fall back on. I had want to add some gutter runners anyway, so time for the poison slings for the win


----------



## Tim/Steve

If nothing else you can always just try a crack's call (or however its spelt) or a quick skitterleap and orb it.


----------

