# Brain Boyz, Ork Creators or Myth



## Lord Vetinari (Mar 11, 2009)

I wanted to start a debate. Were the Brain Boyz, the aledged creators of Orkish race indeed so or did the orks just evolve naturally.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

As i know it the Brain Boyz are in fact the Old Ones (Or at least creations of the Old Ones who went on to create the Orks) who created a Green-skinned warlike race known as the Krork.

The Old Ones created them as a last ditch effort to fight off the C'tan. They were created to be obsessed with War, aggressive, muscular, and unintelligent compared to other sentient species like the Eldar. The reason i guess for this seemingly 'dumbness' is so that they would never rise above the Old Ones, by my understanding the Old Ones knew it was risky to create such a race of beings who were based on war but as i said it was a last-ditched attempt.

Ork behaviour and society is determined by the Ork Waaagh! ("a gestalt psychic field they generate that has affects on the Ork psyche, as it allows Orks to instinctively recognise who is 'bigga' and therefore who is in charge. All Orks generate this field, and it grows stronger as the Orks enjoy themselves, generally while fighting.")

I dont believe that beings with such seemingly obvious engineered traits dont seem to have evolved naturally. It is possible for beings with a universal psychic generated field which dominates their life, and who are naturally obsessed with war to have evolved naturally? (in my opinion no )

Heres a quote from the Lexicanum:
"The more modern one is that they are the Krork, created as a survivor race by the Old Ones (referred to in Ork legend as the Brain Boyz) in their wars against the Necrontyr. The fact that an entire ecosystem can be constructed of Orkoids, and their total war-readiness, suggests that this is the more likely of the two."

Hope this helps


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

I am wondering if the Orc's Waagh! is based on the Warp or the Inmaterium in general. As I understand it, even if not by name, any psychic force is based on this.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Arcane said:


> I am wondering if the Orc's Waagh! is based on the Warp or the Inmaterium in general. As I understand it, even if not by name, any psychic force is based on this.


Im guessing it is yes, my theory is that this is how Gork & Mork could exist (if they exist at all) - as they are presumed to exist within the Warp. (this isn't a fact though)

"This field also has some effect on reality; it plays a key role in making many Orkish technologies work at all, and lends truth to certain Orkish beliefs, such as the idea that red vehicles move faster than those of other colors. Orks seem unaware the Waaagh creates these effects, simply believing they are how the world works."

this part; 'lends truth to certain Orkish beliefs' - i think is interesting, the Orks believe Gork and Mork exist, therefore they do. (through the Waaagh!) In the same way as they believe red vehicles go faster, which they do, because of the Waaagh!

"The Ork racial character, strong and virtually indestructible, has its reflection in the warp in the form of the equally strong and indestructible Ork gods." This quote in a sense supports my theory 

So Gork & Mork exist because the Orks think they do, and they are as warlike as the Orks as they are based on their culture, is the Waaagh! strong enough to create Warp Entities in the Warp simply through belief? And What are the Orks relationship with the Chaos Gods, do they still feed/empower the Chaos Gods like the rest of mortals do? im presuming Yes, in that sense why arn't they all Khorne worshippers? hmmm... 

:good:


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## Sebi (Mar 3, 2009)

"We're da ORKZ! We know no nothing ab'ut oua past and we no need no past... we needs WAR!"

I agree... though the system is rather efficient the whole idea of a race based on never ending conflict is against nature...

And the combination of two completle different evolved kinds of life (algea and mamal) in such a manner also is a strong indication of an artificially "constructed" race

Another strong indication is that the orks just "spawn" and have no sexuallity so each ork... when dying will have the chance to produce numerous offsprings which also is very efficient!

And the fact that this race is so efficient and imba towards their habitat is calling "artifical" 

About the whaagh and the Orkz' "genetic knowledge":
This is rather interesting and also tells me it is "built" in and not evolved
Of course nature evolves so that the "knowing" and "experienced" survive but they give their experience to their offspring... only rudeimentary knowledge is bequeathed and often that knowledge is lost during "growing" up... especially for more soficticated "anmials" like us humans.
All human babies know how to swim... but we "forget" it with time as it becomes unnecessary... we forget.... cause unneeded knowledge is just balast.

The Orkz on the other hand bring very soficsticated knowledge with them from their genes which evolves and gets even flourishes when needed!
We need to learn it... the Orkz just have it and use it when needed....

There is a war? They know how to built themselves "spacecrafts" and tanks and weapons even out of the least bit if scrap!

I call that efficient! but artificial


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Lord Vetinari said:


> I wanted to start a debate. Were the Brain Boyz, the aledged creators of Orkish race indeed so or did the orks just evolve naturally.


The orks are a "created" race, however who the brain boyz were has been changed.

The brain boyz fiction has been updated over time at one time the brain boyz evolved naturally and were the ancestors of the snotlings who achieved their intelligence by eating a special fungus, they then engineered the rest of the orks from their DNA to do their work for them, eventually the orks rebelled ate all the fungus trying to improve their own brains and at the same time denying the brainboyz access to the special fungus, they then devolved into the snotlings.

Now days the fiction goes that "the old ones" were the brain boyz and the previous fluff is just an ork legend. Presumably "the old ones" now created the ork DNA entirely from scratch and none of the orkoid forms are naturally evolved DNA.

Theres also a question over whether or not the slann are they old ones or just another one of their creations. At one time I was 100% sure the "old slann" were the "old ones" now days Im not so sure which direction GW has taken.


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## KageRyuuUji (Jan 16, 2009)

In the language of the Orks:

Da reazon we dont wurship Korne, iz cuz he aint Orky enuff. Ya see, cuz one day Gork an Mork beat Korne up, Gork punched Korne in the face, while Mork punched Korne in the back, telling him to "sod off cuz dese are our boyz". So Korne leaves da boyz alone.

Returnin ta Hi' Goffic Emperal:

There are tons of Orkish legends of Gork and Mork beating up the Chaos gods thus earning the race immunity against them.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

KageRyuuUji said:


> There are tons of Orkish legends of Gork and Mork beating up the Chaos gods thus earning the race immunity against them.


Yes i've noticed some  but i dont suppose this (if actually true) would stop Ork emotions and actions feeding Khorne. 

All descriptions of the warp have it divided into the Warp Gods realms (who are also part of the god itself; The Maze of Tzeentch, The Garden of Nurgle, The Fortress of Khorne, and the Palace of Slaanesh - also any other minor chaos gods and their respective realms; although insignificant compared to the Major 4) and the Formless wastes. The Gods themselves and therefore their realms expand and contract depending on the flux of emotions and actions in the material univserse. 

So Where do Gork and Mork fit in?! If, as i think they were created by the Waaagh! are they then warp entities? (this in turn would mean the Waaagh! is derived from the warp) How do they gain there power? hmm :victory:


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## Sebi (Mar 3, 2009)

well... I guess when it comes to power and warp all Orks are the same...best example is the Wyerdboy:
the more fighting there is the stronger the Psychic Powers are... so I guess the more Orks beat something upo (no matter what...) the more power gain Gork and Mork... the question is... what do they do with it?
Right! like any other Orki they beat up whats around... if nothing is around they beat up each other...
Fun I say!


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 11, 2009)

Is it possible that Gork and MOrk are just names for the same gods that are worshiped by the Heritics? Kinda like Zeus and Jupiter.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Depends on how you view the gods really.

My view is that what "we" get is myth, filtered through the understanding of the Imperium.

So Ork technology, to me at least, has rational principles behind, it's just that the Imperium doesn't understand them (because it's a decaying theocracy that doesn't even understand its _own_ technology).

Likewise, the gods as we know them are personifications of powers in the universe that scare the hell out of the Imperium (in part because they've been taught to fear them by the Eldar). But they're a mish-mash of of atavistic fears and desires with badly-understood legends, tied up in a particularly obscure theology. 

In the Middle Ages and early modern period, some relatively well-educated Europeans (eg Christopher Marlowe) thought that Moslems prayed to Jupiter - completely misunderstanding the nature of Islam. Monks thought that (Barnacle) Geese were fish, not birds. Demons that came and had sex with people in the middle of the night were blamed for all sorts of illnesses and birth-defects that we now know have genetic or environmental causes, and so on. 

I think the same thing is happening in 40k - a little knowlege, a little more-or-less dodgy reasoning, and a whole lot of furtive night-time speculation by dodgy Tech-Priests leads to all sorts of wonderful (but wrong) conclusions.

Don't know where I'm going with this any more, so I'll stop. Hope some of it illuminated something...

:suspecting not cyclops:


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Well Red Orc, the difference is, in 40k, the Gods actually do exist for sure and show up and blow stuff up. 

Cadian 1: "I am an athiest"
Cadian 2: "Tell that to that swarm of summoned Daemons coming through the Eye right now"


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Arcane said:


> Well Red Orc, the difference is, in 40k, the Gods actually do exist for sure and show up and blow stuff up.
> 
> Cadian 1: "I am an athiest"
> Cadian 2: "Tell that to that swarm of summoned Daemons coming through the Eye right now"


Indeed :biggrin:

As we know gods in 40k do exist. And although as Red Orc says humanity cannot comprehend or understand said gods, they still manifest their will in the material plane 

I mean at the end of the day it doesnt really matter that you cant understand the gods. But i bet even the Imperium can understand that the Gods seek their destruction. Or merely 'harvest' them in order to sustain themselves through emotions.

The Human Ego allows us to think we are significant and important within the galaxy, when at the end of the day this quote sums it up;

"Understand, Mortals, that every one of you, each of your so-called champions, is just a piece in the Great Game of our masters" :good:


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Really? I don't ever remember GW publishing game stats for Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Gork and/or Mork. Maybe you could tell me what books they're in so I can check them out.

I'd agree with you that _daemons_ are real in the game, as are the C'Tan. But I've never seen a god.

:sceptical cyclops:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Red Orc said:


> Really? I don't ever remember GW publishing game stats for Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Gork and/or Mork. Maybe you could tell me what books they're in so I can check them out.
> 
> I'd agree with you that _daemons_ are real in the game, as are the C'Tan. But I've never seen a god.
> 
> :sceptical cyclops:


Talking from an Imperials point of view maybe. But from our point of view we know the gods exist. 

Also arn't daemons proof of their respective gods existence? what about Chaos 'gifts' and mutations? 

The Necrontyr found a C'tan feeding on their sun, and were able somehow to make contact with it, they came to worship the C'tan as gods.

The Inquisitors and other high ranking officials of the Imperium know of Chaos' existence, but try to keep the 'civilians' in the dark as much as possible, fearing that the temptations of Chaos might prove to great.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Well, it seems you're completely missing my point.

What we "know" about the 40k universe is contained in game stats and special rules. These are the "objective reality" of the 40k universe. We know an Elda shoots better than an Ork, we know a Space Marine hits harder than a Grot, we know that Tau guns shoot better than... just about anything.

Everything else, all the background, all the fluff, is just opinion. We "know"... exactly what we've been told.

The existence of Daemons is no more proof of the existence of the Chaos Gods than the existence of Humans is proof of any of the gods that have been alleged to create them in the last 5,000 years or so. The existence of chaos gifts could be explained in _dozens_ of other ways. Here's one: 

"Champions of Chaos believe that their mutations are gifts from their gods; in fact, genetic research has chown that they posses a rare series of mutations that result from infection by tiny organisms from the Void, that stimulate an ancient area of the brain to produce both psychic and physiological effects..."

Now that's not an explanation that the Imperium would understand. But it might, "objectively", be just as valid as the explanation they have. It's not inconsitent with the physical laws of the 40k universe, as expressd in "the Rules" is it? 

I've often wondered how the Tau would understand the Orks or the Eldar, or the Eldar understand the Tau. I think it would be very very different to how the Imperium understands (or, doesn't understand) them.

:somewhat relativistic cyclops:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Ok  but i dont really see the relavence in what your saying! We know the gods exist because GW tells us they do. Its a created story not real life - (in real life your argument would be entirely valid) but as its GW's story, whatever they say goes - They say the Chaos gods exist and create daemons, therefore they do!

Or maybe im just missing your point entirely!! :drinks:

If that is the case then i apologise! :suicide:

:fool:

(btw sorry for all the smilies, just found the whole list!!)


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Red Orc said:


> ...
> My view is that what "we" get is myth, filtered through the understanding of the Imperium...


That was my point. The stories we get are from the Human (Imperial) point of view. Other cultures would explain things differently. A hypothetical non-Imperial human culture, coming across Chaos Marines, might have the explanation for gifts of chaos that I describe. The Tau indeed might have that explanation, for all I know.

So, GW may tell us that the Chaos Gods are real, but that "reality" only exists inside the games universe, which I'm treating as being just as biased and partial as our universe.

In other words, I'm applying source-criticism and historical research methodology to the game-data, as if it were real-world data. If you pretend that the data is "real", you _also_ have to take into account the possibility it may be _wrong_.

It may be a step too far; but the very terms of the original question - Creators or Myth? - implies that very question. How much of the data we are given as "real" is actually "accurate"?

:cyclops of the Faculty of Comparitive Mythology of the University of Tallarn Secundus:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Indeed then yes i guess thats correct. as you said the Tau for example have very little if any understand of the warp (not that anyone understands the warp, but the Tau have a very very insignificat warp presence individually and no psykers), so their understanding of Chaos 'gifts' and daemons would probably be very different to that of the Imperiums.

Most of the fluff is from the Imperiums point of view, so your suggesting that in a similar way as the Tau dont understand chaos (less so than humans), the Imperium also doesnt understand some things (well a lot of things) so they develop 'myths' or theories which get portrayed as fact from there point of view?


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## morfangdakka (Dec 31, 2006)

I don't think GW though has said the gods were real. I have only heard of them refered to in stories and legends the same with Gork and Mork similiar to how people refer to god. I will admit though that I'm not 100% caught up on my fluff for chaos so I could be wrong.
There is also the components of sourcery and the warp that can add the mutations as well as genetic and enviromental modifiers. 

Also I have never heard of Gork or Mork personally getting involved in any ork affairs. They are refered to often as like "Mork must have been watching over him."


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> ...
> Most of the fluff is from the Imperiums point of view, so your suggesting ... the Imperium also doesnt understand some things (well a lot of things) so they develop 'myths' or theories which get portrayed as fact from there point of view?


Pretty much that yes. Because it doesn't understand its own technology, it doesn't understand ork technology. Because it doesn't understand its own history, it doesn't understand Eldar history, and so on.

And Morfang is of course right, as I was implying before with my slightly snide question. There's no more 'in-game' evidence for the existence of the gods than there is in the real world for the existence of any god. I certainly don't have Zeus's stats (except for D&D, of course), and no-one in the 40k universe has Khorne's either.

It doesn't matter, I'm not going to criticise anyone else for not playing along. I just like to take a more nuanced approach than "this is what we're told by GW, it must be true". It's my training as a historian that does it (you should see what I can do with the title "The Archaeology of Aragorn" for a _real_ mind-bendingly pointless afternoon of speculation... :wink: )

:cyclops immersed in sub-creational reality:


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Well if you take the books of 40k as actual events, then probability of chaos gods being not real is like one in milion, just look at Horus Heresy plot and try to explain that without existance of chaos gods (although it can be done, its already going to complete realitivism, its like me trying to prove one of you is actualy chat bot and explaining your every word by certain algorythms..)

As for orks - humans are ALWAYS fighing, orks are too, imo orks could just evolve from plants with some mix of warp (there are some real theories about humans evolving because they had to go live in mountainsides where radiation levels are higher) so yeh...anything possible, actualy old ones might have been same orks, just society split in two castes - the rulers and slaves, slaves rebelled, they were the orks.

As for gork mork and wagh - i dont see how that is very associated with warp, as i understand it the example of red wehicles goes faster is smth like this: an ork mech has all the tech knowledge in gis genes, he builds a machine and he doesnt even know how, then its coded in his genes - "if you put turbo booster in it, paint it red" so he does and doesnt even know why, but that effectively makes red wehicles fast. Wagh is also smth like combat stimulants and all that stuff, they probably just subconsciously release certain hormones or smth on that occasion, thats ofcourse coded in genes too. I do think they have high levels of psychic powers - just because they are a prime requirement for orks to be so "social" creatures, aka working and waghing together etc.

I have no thoughts on gork and mork, as i know no proof of neither them existing nor not-existing, but i think they are just a part of ork survivalist gene, as they have rough skin to protect from damage, tech knowledge in genes to equip themselves, so they have a genetical spiritual/metal/warp defense mechanism built in in form of gork and mork.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Gork and Mork are in fact Khaine and The Laughing God. War and cunning sound familiar? Both the Eldar and the Orks were created by the Old Ones, so they didn't bother to make two more gods (It was last-ditch), but then the orks overwhelmed the Old Ones and they devolved into Snotlings.


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## Wu-Tang-Tau (Apr 2, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> As i know it the Brain Boyz are in fact the Old Ones (Or at least creations of the Old Ones who went on to create the Orks) who created a Green-skinned warlike race known as the Krork.
> 
> The Old Ones created them as a last ditch effort to fight off the C'tan. They were created to be obsessed with War, aggressive, muscular, and unintelligent compared to other sentient species like the Eldar. The reason i guess for this seemingly 'dumbness' is so that they would never rise above the Old Ones, by my understanding the Old Ones knew it was risky to create such a race of beings who were based on war but as i said it was a last-ditched attempt.
> 
> ...


I hope they old ones aren't as "good looking" as the orks


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## Lord Lucius (Sep 18, 2008)

with the"do the gods exist?" debate ,the aswere is no. take gork n mork,they are ork concioucenes or sentience given form in the warp.so then obviously they exist(in 40k) ,but then thats contradicting what I first said.But thats fine because the warp and OUR(or 40k) reality are like a coin,both the same yet opposits,our side of order and reason ,the warp of chaos and nonsense .once something is finnaly understood it changes, so slannesh was never born ,will never die and has an evil sister called bobet who works in the laundret (because nothing can be made sense off , every thing is right and wrong at the same time ). my head hurts...


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## buckythefly (Mar 16, 2009)

Its my personally belief, (Gleaned purely from online articles and the Ork Codex) that the Ork's were built as a weapon to combat chaos, (hense their natural immunity to its effect) and their ability to grow stronger from conflict. They would be the only people who stand a chance. But over time, I think they degenerated further and further from what the Old Ones intended as time went on after they were gone. Which explains the spottiness of their hardwired designs, and their psychic field.


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## Searune (Apr 10, 2009)

Maybe Gork and Mork were the first Ork Warbosses or they are Ork Ideals of self Improvement Driving and Shooting (from what I hear they are undermined by both or at least shooting)(I haven't faced Orks Yet)


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

buckythefly said:


> that the Ork's were built as a weapon to combat chaos, (hense their natural immunity to its effect) and their ability to grow stronger from conflict. They would be the only people who stand a chance. But over time, I think they degenerated further and further from what the Old Ones intended as time went on after they were gone. Which explains the spottiness of their hardwired designs, and their psychic field.


They were created to fight the C'tan/Necrons not Chaos. Chaos hadn't gained consciousness at the time they were created. 

And they dont really have a natural immunity to its effect, the reason why there is no well known cases of Orks 'falling' to chaos is because they dont fear death, and all they want to do is fight!

The Old Ones designed them to be 'dumb' so they would pose no threat to them, but would be a great weapon against the C'tan/Necrons. It literally was a last ditch attempt by the Old Ones to fend off the C'tan, they knew the consequences of creating the Orks; plaguing the galaxy with a race that was obsessed with war and near impossible to destroy.



Searune said:


> Maybe Gork and Mork were the first Ork Warbosses


Theres several theories as to what Gork and Mork are:

-They could be Old Ones, worshipped as gods.
-They could be Warp Entites created by the Waaagh Psychic field (which binds all Orks) as a representaiton of the Orks themselves.


Maybe they could be the first Ork Warbosses, maybe not, no one knows for sure :biggrin:


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## Searune (Apr 10, 2009)

We should talk to GW about that if LOL they ever give us a straight answer


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## micro horus (Apr 12, 2009)

from wat i know, da orkz was a last ditch attempt to defend from the ctan. but in my necron codex it said krork and jearaeko or sumat, i guess the on with the j would be the eldar?


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## Lord Vetinari (Mar 11, 2009)

That would be one hell of a fluff and really could even be put into its own book (some one call Black Library). But in all serriousness They are probably manifestations of ork desites to kill maim and be kunnin. As a something to combat chaos the orks are good but what about to combat Tyranids. The Old Ones could have seen the Hive approaching and created a green tide to stem the red ones


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## InquisitorTidusSolomon (Mar 7, 2009)

The Tyranids emerged into the Imperium scant centuries ago. The Old Ones were gone LONG before the Tyranids attacked.

The Orks aren't designed to combat Chaos, either. They were created (as has been said) in a last-ditch effort to stop the Necrons and the C'tan from controlling the entire universe. 

The Tyranids and Orks are actually at war right now. Inquisito Kryptman (the leading authority on the Tyranids) diverted them to Octavius, a massive Ork empire. The Tyranids then set upon the Orks; two races devoted completely to war. This helped to solve the problem posed by the Octavius Orks, and diverted the Hive Mind's attention for the time being. However, it is clear that the Great Devourer will shatter the Orkish empire, and when it does, it will emerge with a huge amount of new Biomass and new Biomorphs; after all, they are consuming the hardiest and most warlike of races, so the Imperium is pretty much screwed.


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