# The Marines are destroying my nids



## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

I have played several games against space marines. I use a combination CC and shooting nid army, and I am getting destroyed. The guy I play is using a static gun line, but he has so many guns that I am watching my army melt away before I can even get into range. 

Help?


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## cafel (Dec 21, 2008)

It'd be helpful to have a sense of his list and yours. I'd suggest outflanking genestealers. Those tend to mess up gunlines. Also gaunt screens are useful, but really I'd need to see the lists to give better advice.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

The Space Marines

hq 140

librarian

-terminator armor
-storm shield



elites

-sternguard veteran 10 335
-combi-melta5, combi plasma5
-drop pod

heavy support

vindicator 115-dozor blade5

vindicator 115

Thunderfire cannon 100



troop

tactical squad 285
-power pist
-plasma gun
-plasma cannon

Razor back
-twin-linked lascannon



tactical squad 285
-power pist
-plasma gun
-plasma cannon

Razor back
-twin-linked lascannon

scout squad 119
Sniper rifle5
heavy bolter 1
camo clock6


My Nids

HQ

Hive Tyrant
Adrenal Glands (initiative +1)
Adrenal Glands (WS +1)
Toxin Sacs (S+)
Winged
Scything Talons (2) (A+1 per)
Warp Field (Sv +2/+6)
197

Warriors (6)
Adrenal Glands (WS)
Extended Carapace (Sv +1)
Leaping
Toxin Sacs (S+)
Scything Talons (10) (A+1 per)
Rending Claws (2) (Rending)
232

Elite

Warriors (6)
Extended Carapace (Sv +1)
Toxin Sacs (S+)
Deathspitters
Scything Talons (3) (A+1 per)
Rending Claws (3) (Rending)
210

Carnifex (2)
Barbed Strangler
Scything Talons (A+1 per)

226

Troops

Genestealers (9)
Feeder Tendrils
Extended Carapace (Sv +1)

189

Genestealers (9)
Feeder Tendrils
Extended Carapace (Sv +1)
189

Gaunts (10)
Spinefist
50

Gaunts (10)
Spinefist
50

Gaunts (10)
Spinefist
50

Heavy

Biovores (2)
Toxin Spore
104


It was a victory point dawn of war match, but he pretty much wiped me. I have tried several variations on the above list, and he always uses this list.


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## cafel (Dec 21, 2008)

Hmm.. I'd drop the biovores for a zoanthrope and some extra points, but it's mostly because I just don't like them in general.

Drop extended carapace from the stealers and give them outflanking. That'll either make it easy to assualt his gunline if he spreads out, or it'l have him cluster all his units more then 18" from each short board edge.

Drop the EC on the shooty warriors, they should simply be kept behind a gaunt screen.

I don't really like cc warriors, I think they cost too much for what they do. Those points could go to more genestealers.

Finally I'd combine those three units of spinegaunts into two of 15, just so they'll last longer.

Really with Genestealers outflanking you not only have a good chance of quick engagment in melee if you can find cover, you also keep your opponent within a 12" wide zone if he wants to try to avoid genestealers popping out and assualting him. Your boomfexes and deathspitter warriors will love this.


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Actually DON'T drop the carapace, without, you have no save against his bolters and flamers, with it, he'll need to bring his heavy weapons to bear on you. Do let them outflank, maybe add a lictor into your list so you can reroll stuff with the pheromone trail.

A zoanthrope should help you take care of his tanks with it's focussed blast.


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## Sebi (Mar 3, 2009)

First of all: I do not play nids but friends of mine do so I know them rather well and also the Dex so:

Why do you play an elite fex and not the normal Support Fexes that offer mor upgrade options and in general can have a sync barbed strangler?

my advice:
get two more fexes and put our more damage at 36" with Stranglers ... biovores are imho not worth their points ... all I have seen so far is not good.

Warriors are almost not used here ... not worth their points in most players opinion.
But maybe you find a suitable way to use em... there is not a bad unit ... but there are always "better" units :grin:

other than that what has been said sounds good for me


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yes, outflanking stealers is the way to go- switch the enhanced carapace for scuttlers and send them round the flank. You dont need a 4+ save since you should either be able to get into combat straight away or hide in/behind cover (if you are in the open getting shot at your already dead so a 4+ save isnt going to help much).

Next, lose all those useless upgrades:
tyrant doesnt need warp field, +WS, +I
warriors dont need enhanced carapace if you keep them behind gaunts (they should NEVER get flamed... if they do your doing something wrong).
Ive never needed more then 8 stealers in a unit... and you want to avoid killing enemy units in 1 turn (if the fight lasts 2 then they cant shoot at you before you charge again).

I am the greatest fan of biovores there is... but I would still never use them like this. Firstly they need to be in a group of 3 and secondly WHY OH WHY are you using toxin? I can understand using it against orks and using frag against T3 enemies but fot the rest you want bio acid- landing 3 mines in a MEQ squad in the open can tear the heart out of the unit... landing 2 toxin mines on MEQs or SM vehicles is almost laughable (and will still be giving away KP).
- I would advise a straight cut of the vores in this case.

Im also not a fan of combat warriors- they seem way too expensive for pretty lacklustre performance but if they work for you keep them.


So if you've made the cuts I suggested then you have saved about 232pts.. which will get you another couple of boomfex or enough to take 3 zoanthropes and make a unit of gaunts WoN (great help with objective missions- run straight forward and when they die/suicide then worry about objectives).


ADDITIONAL- I like the nidzilla/hoard type approach. Rather then keeping balance you massively overpopulate the MC/gaunt level- half of the enemy weapons will then be almost useless against you (if you have no MCs then enemy lascannons are going to do what? and if all your force is in MCs then any S3-4 enemy weapons are pretty useless)... wont really help this list but is something to keep in mind if you start having trouble with 1 particular enemy army.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Thanks.

I have won against this guy in the past, but it was with a shooty nid army. Just for fluffly reasons, I wanted to make an effective CC army. This one had ten guns. I don't really count the gaunt guns... they are almost never used. Do you have any suggestions in making a CC army that could take that list down. I have tried everything.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Ive just come up with my first CC list and havent even got to playtest it yet- I have no expectations of it actually being able to beat any half decent players (but then mine is zero gun.. just zoanthropes for non-CC).
Shooty nids are incredibly effective but I dont think much of most of the combat units... not until they get a re-write at least (hopefully then they'll work as an assault army once again).


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Against a gun line SME, I have been wiped or near wiped for about 6 games. Hence the ten guns. Though it still didn't work. They are a combination of just not fast enough and not resilient enough. My shooty list is pretty good, but every variation of CC I have tried has failed pretty badly. It is frustrating because tyranids in the fluff look like they should be CC strong.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Hormogaunts are too expensive and too soft. Stealers are way too expensive. Rippers are quite good but suffer too much from S6+/blasts. Raveners are simply too soft. Warriors cant dish out enough damage for how much they cost. Fex are too slow.
That leaves just the hive tyrant as a good CC unit... and guard... mebbe even spinegaunts if you can get enough numbers in a fight.

Sure the fluff says that they're principally a CC army but the army just isnt bearing that out currently.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Agreed unfortunately...


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## englhockey (Mar 19, 2009)

IMO you have way to many points stuck on some of your models, try going cheap with everything that way you will have so much that he cant shoot it all down with a ton of gaunts and stealers. out number him, you cant be better model to model.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

cafel said:


> Drop extended carapace from the stealers and give them outflanking. That'll either make it easy to assualt his gunline if he spreads out, or it'l have him cluster all his units more then 18" from each short board edge.
> 
> Really with Genestealers outflanking you not only have a good chance of quick engagment in melee if you can find cover, you also keep your opponent within a 18" wide zone if he wants to try to avoid genestealers popping out and assualting him. Your boomfexes and deathspitter warriors will love this.


This is amongst the most important things all Tyranid players should learn to abuse. You dont even need to make the unit big, 6-8 is well enough, 2 units is a lot better then 1 big since it gives you higher chance of getting a unit on the right spot at the right time:good:
Just knowing that some Genestealers will come in from a table edge will affect your opponents gameplan, youve effectively just cut his deploymentzone in half if he wants to stay safe! And yea, this will be loved by template weapons in your army indeed:wink:


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## englhockey (Mar 19, 2009)

Try ruuning something like.
tyrant wings 2 sets talons
tyrant 3 guards venom cannon lash whips on all
2 sets of 5 warriors half with guns half with close combat weapons give the close combat ones leeping
8 steelers as is no upgrades
8 stealers same
20 hormagaunts
20 gaunts with spine fists
2 carnifexes
2 raveners

then as many gaubts and steelers as you can fit in keep every thing cheep becasue stuff is gonna die so why sink a ton of points into it? they can win in numbers this type of list remains undefeated for me. give cheap units a try.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yeah, I have similar principles for my own army (though I through the odd 'fun' unit in:
Dakka tyrant (with guard in larger games)- toxin sacs, +BS
winged double scything tyrant- toxin sacs, flesh hooks
3 boomfex (1 as heavy support)
4-5 warriors (TL dakka ans barbed strangler)
4*10 termagants
24 spinegaunts
10 devigaunts with toxin sacs (fun)
3 zoanthropes warp blast synapse/psychic scream
3 biovores with bio acid spore mines (fun)

Thats pretty much a standard 1500pt list for me (Ive only ever lost once with nids... thats because I lost count of the turns so was close by but not 'on' objectives at the end of turn 5 :cray
That comes in at about +126pts spent on 'biomorphs' (not including base weapon cost or psychic powers), about 50% of that is on my winged tyrant. Im a great believer in mobbing enemies with lots of rubbish stuff until they die (yes I dont know how I came to do HE in WFB... surely I should do VCs).


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## groo (Oct 26, 2009)

i have not read the nid codex recently, but if i remember correctly you can mess his line up with lictors due to there hidden deployment rule. try and guess the closest possible point to where you thingk he will put his line, and deploy there, then pop them up and screw his strategy right up. as far as i remember they are cc gods for the nids. 

i am willing to bet your friend lacks immignation, and tends to deploy his line in the same areas every time because it is working for him.


i may be way off the mark here but i am trying lol


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yeah.. few editions out of date on that one 
Lictors just DS into terrain pieces (dont scatter out) so dont need to choose where in advance but they really arent that good in combat: they'll mess up a stationary tank but even guardsmen will have a good chance of killing it in combat.


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## oblivion8 (Jun 17, 2009)

true to that, unfotunatly...
genestealers outflanking with ft are great, and if you get them in theyll kill any of his infantry. Try some thropes, warp blast can be unreliable some times but when it hits it hits, and they are a bugger to kill.


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## liforrevenge (Oct 6, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> Hormogaunts are too expensive and too soft. Stealers are way too expensive. Rippers are quite good but suffer too much from S6+/blasts. Raveners are simply too soft. Warriors cant dish out enough damage for how much they cost. Fex are too slow.
> That leaves just the hive tyrant as a good CC unit... and guard... mebbe even spinegaunts if you can get enough numbers in a fight.
> 
> Sure the fluff says that they're principally a CC army but the army just isnt bearing that out currently.


wow! the only models I have are hormogaunts,warriors, 'stealers, a hive tyrant and a biovore, oh and a zoanthrope and some other gaunts...
looks like i should look to reinvest


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## ironhammer (Aug 14, 2008)

the best strategy depends on army size, under 1500pts you should use a pincer maneuver and hit him from the flanks. in larger battles it is best to rush one corner (preferably the side the tanks and heavy guns are not on) and hit them with everything you got and sweep the map. use your biovores to distract the heavy weapon teams, even if you don't hit them they will still waste their heavy fire either moving away from the mine, or from shooting the thing, either way the guns are not shooting your main army. and keep the hormogaunts, they are mediocre cc units but they are great swarm units the sheer weight of a good-sized hormogaunt unit will really help to just overrun enemy positions and take hits for your more important units.


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## redjack256 (Nov 5, 2009)

Personally, I agree on outflanking. If you get a brood of 7 genestealers with acid maw, toxin sacs, scuttlers and extended carapace into close combat, you will win that assault. That is my usual troop choice which comes out to 210. 
If you buffer it with a couple of lictors, you occasionally get the lictor to assault the same squad giving your genestealers preferred enemy as well. This is dependent on how your terrain is deployed, but enough genestealer/lictor antics will make your opponent hate table edges and area terrain, causing them to cluster.
If you have the points to spare, a brood of raveners with deathspitters is always fun when your opponent clusters his forces.
These are just some of the fun things I like to do, feel free to try them out.


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## raverboi (Jan 15, 2009)

nids=quantity

quantity has a quility all its own

drown him in bugs, as many as you can field


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## rokar4life (Jun 21, 2008)

In my experience the 24 point 'Stealer(Ext. Carapace, Scuttlers, and Feeder Tendrils works) the best for general use, of course more specialized things do require more specialization. It's a good idea not to take Biovores in general, because a Carnifex, or Zoanthropes will be able to do quite a bit more damage, and I don't know if the marine player made you count missed spore mines from your Biovores as kill points, but most people will in any kind of competitive setting.


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