# Guilliman's Plans, Age of Darkness *MAJOR SPOILERS*



## Fancyxeno21 (Sep 8, 2010)

Just another reminder, this thread will contain spoilers to age of darkness so if you didn't see the warning in the title and you do not wish to find out about certain information from the book, stop reading now. You have been warned :victory:


I'm sort of just creating a conversation on this topic, the book sparked my interest on the subject and I am wondering what all of you fellow readers have to say on the subject. 

So after reading Age of Darkness it seems that Guilliman has plans of his own that begin even prior to the siege of Terra. 

Does this actually make Guilliman a betrayer to some extent? It seems like he had ample time to get to Terra for the siege but he instead spent his time battle testing his tactics for the _codex astartes_. While I am a fanboy of the Ultramarines, and so far for what has been written about him I really like the character of Roboute Guilliman but it seems likely that he purposely was late to the siege of terra. Thoughts?

Cheers,
FX


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I think Guilliman thought that being late to the party on Terra would benefit the Imperium in the long run

I thought Guilliman's idea was that Terra was in pretty hopeless situation and that rushing into the meat-grinder would be a waste of resources. If he battle-tested his tactics, he could still preserve the Imperium (as the Imperium Secundus) after the siege...

not sure I really agree with his reasoning or maybe I'm missing something


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Who knows, I think it's pretty suspicious of him and imo I think he's fooling himself if he thinks it's not a good idea to head straight for Terra, maybe over confidence / arrogance that other legions see in the Ultramarines is actually taking root in his decision to invest time in fortifying his own little Empire rather than rescuing the actual Imperium.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Considering that Guilliman stated that many would view him and his Legion as traitors and cowards following the implementation of this plan, it seems to me that after the Word Bearers’ failure to destroy the Ultramarines at Calth, Guilliman is consciously not rushing to Terra to save Emperor and Imperium. Instead his plan revolves around the ‘Imperium Secundus’ - The second Imperium. Planning for the long-term future, rather than attempting to save what is already ash and ruins (perhaps even including the Emperor). He remains in Ultramar writing the _Codex Astartes_ and field testing it, rather than rushing headlong towards Terra. There is no mention of warp storms or turbulent warp routes that is preventing the XIII Legion from reaching Terra (which is what was preventing the I Legion from reaching Terra) which further justifies my conclusions. This perspective is compounded by other revelations and implications throughout the rest of the compilation, the Lion’s interpretation of Guilliman’s requests prominent amongst them. Whatever the case may truly be, the Heresy series promises a very juicy future. Feel free to discuss this throughout this thread by the way, it would be nice to hear others interpretations.


Thats from my review of _Age of Darkness_.


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## Fancyxeno21 (Sep 8, 2010)

Personally, I don't see how the imperium would benefit at all from Guilliman waiting to go to terra. Since the ultramarines are the biggest legion, and it seems that not all of the traitor legions were at the siege of terra in the first place, another 250000 marines would have maybe saved sanguinius and the emperor from the fate they received.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

yeah, maybe if the UM had rushed to Terra, the Emperor would still be alive and kicking. 

anyhow, his decisions was quite intriguing


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## sonn (Nov 25, 2010)

Seems like BL has decided to switch the Dark Angels and Ultramarines.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

sonn said:


> Seems like BL has decided to switch the Dark Angels and Ultramarines.


I don't think so, I think it's more that are finally penning the reason why it took so long for the other legions to arrive at Terra. I always had my suspicions when it came to the Ultramarines, I knew their "I'm the best" attitude would eventually play some role in the heresy.


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## Fancyxeno21 (Sep 8, 2010)

sonn said:


> Seems like BL has decided to switch the Dark Angels and Ultramarines.


I woulnt say that guilliman was on the fence, he would never turn to chaos


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## Hammer49 (Feb 12, 2011)

Its almost like he waiting for the other primarchs to weaken each other, and then he walks in as the imperiums saviour. Maybe his reputation for strategy is well deserved, and hes not as good as usually portrayed.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Fancyxeno21 said:


> I woulnt say that guilliman was on the fence, he would never turn to chaos


No, but it *could* be that he betrayed the Emperor in order to preserve the Emperor's ideals. Sounds kind of like Alpharius (if _Legion_ is taken at face-value).


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## rafunparked (Feb 2, 2008)

Idk Im not an Ultra fanboy or anything but from what I gathered reading it G-man is thinking the long game. If you remember in one of the practice engagements the ultras took a good amount of damage to lure in the "traitors" so they could then do the swinging gate around them. I believe this is what hes doing, bleed them a bit and suck them in then come in from behind and mop up. Cowardly or opportunistic idk but thats my theory as to why.


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## Fancyxeno21 (Sep 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No, but it *could* be that he betrayed the Emperor in order to preserve the Emperor's ideals. Sounds kind of like Alpharius (if _Legion_ is taken at face-value).


So basically you could argue that Alpharius and Guilliman have the same ideals, except decided to take different courses of action.

Sort of ironic how they both hate(strongly dislike) each other.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Fancyxeno21 said:


> Sort of ironic how they both hate(strongly dislike) each other.


I don't believe Alpharius hates Guilliman. He makes one rather vague comment in Legion and then that's it. They had a disagreement in their IA, but nothing was outright stated.



Words_of_Truth said:


> I don't think so, I think it's more that are finally penning the reason why it took so long for the other legions to arrive at Terra. I always had my suspicions when it came to the Ultramarines, .


No, we've always had a reason why the Ultramarines took so long (the great distance) which was described before in the Codices. Previously this was never even implied.



Words_of_Truth said:


> I knew their "I'm the best" attitude would eventually play some role in the heresy.


Is this something in Rules of Engagement? I don't think I've ever seen that from them.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Gree said:


> I don't believe Alpharius hates Guilliman. He makes one rather vague comment in Legion and then that's it. They had a disagreement in their IA, but nothing was outright stated.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I always thought the whole distance thing was a bit of a cop out tbh If they wanted to get home they could of done, they had plenty of time.

The whole "I'm better than you" thing simply comes from numerous areas where other legions comment on them etc Lorgar of course is a prime example. 

It's more a feeling they give off rather than an actual flaw, except in this case where Roboute's strategic capabilities has clearly overcome what he should do. 

Should he do what's right or do what's best and in this case he's chosen to do what best tactically rather than what's right which is giving his life for his father.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I can sort of see where Guilliman is coming from, why save the Emperor if you lose the Empire in doing so?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Baron Spikey said:


> I can sort of see where Guilliman is coming from, why save the Emperor if you lose the Empire in doing so?


Well, that's where I think the problem lies in the make up of the Primarchs. They are so inhuman, especially in Guilliman's case that the right thing is to try and save his father, rather that being so intricate with his tactics etc that he's forgotten "hope" and "luck".

If he was more human I think it would be more obvious to him that the right thing to do was to attempt to save his father instead of trying to work out the outcome.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> I can sort of see where Guilliman is coming from, why save the Emperor if you lose the Empire in doing so?


When the fledgling Imperium is built upon faith in the Ruler of Mankind and his once-united, once-noble sons commanding their Astartes legionnaries

Only a vast system of propaganda, beauracratic and religous bullshit, constantly policed by PDF and Inquisitorial forces prevents the Emperor-less Imperium of today from splintering beneath the simple fact that *there is and there never will be any hope for humanity in the 41st millenium...*

Guilliman felt safe within his utopia which, as demonstrated by Horus on numerous worlds, held a greater patronage for their 'founding Primarch' than they did the Emperor 

The Ultramarines piss me off. The Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and White Scars fought tooth and nail against traitor forces to hold Terra, despite overwhelming odds. Terra was the birthplace of the Emperor, the Great Crusade and humanity and would have held a strong sentimentality to most Primarch's - but not Guilliman. Morally, asshole. Tactically - it seems more of a conservative gamble which didn't pay off and shaped, if not doomed the Imperium to a slow rot

Hopefully _Know No Fear _gives us more detail, yeah


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I always thought the whole distance thing was a bit of a cop out tbh If they wanted to get home they could of done, they had plenty of time.


You underestimate the troubles of warp travel and the sheer difference of it all.



Words_of_Truth said:


> The whole "I'm better than you" thing simply comes from numerous areas where other legions comment on them etc Lorgar of course is a prime example.


Lorgar is the only example to my knowledge, and he is hardly the most rational and objective when it comes to percieving Guilliman.



bobss said:


> The Ultramarines piss me off. The Blood Angels, Imperial Fists and White Scars fought tooth and nail against traitor forces to hold Terra, despite overwhelming odds. Terra was the birthplace of the Emperor, the Great Crusade and humanity and would have held a strong sentimentality to most Primarch's - but not Guilliman. Morally, asshole. Tactically - it seems more of a conservative gamble which didn't pay off and shaped, if not doomed the Imperium to a slow rot


Not quite.

There would not be an Imperium without the Ultramarines.

IA Ultramarines.




> There were desperately few Space Marines, and never were they more needed. The enemies of Mankind, sensing the weakness of the Imperium, prepared to attack, but Roboute Guilliman vowed that the Emperor's realm would not fall and took it upon himself to hold it together. He despatched his Legion throughout the galaxy to stem the tide of invasion and unrest, holding the fragile Imperium together through a time of great danger. Macragge provided recruits as fast as it could, and soon the Ultramarines accounted for more than half of the Space Marines in the field. After almost a decade of total war, stability was restored to the galaxy and the philosophies of the Ultramarines' way of war had permeated almost every Legion


. 

If you are blaming the current Imperium's corruption on Guilliman than that's also inaccurate. Guilliman reformed the military after the Heresy. He had no hand in any religous or political aspects at all in the imperium and lived for only a century after the Heresy before he was put in stasis.


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## Fancyxeno21 (Sep 8, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Well, that's where I think the problem lies in the make up of the Primarchs. They are so inhuman, especially in Guilliman's case that the right thing is to try and save his father, rather that being so intricate with his tactics etc that he's forgotten "hope" and "luck".
> 
> If he was more human I think it would be more obvious to him that the right thing to do was to attempt to save his father instead of trying to work out the outcome.


Guilliman seemed to think that his father would agree with what he is doing according to the beginning of Rules of Engagement.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Fancyxeno21 said:


> Guilliman seemed to think that his father would agree with what he is doing according to the beginning of Rules of Engagement.


Second guessing the Emperor is what caused the heresy in the first place, he should of known better.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Second guessing the Emperor is what caused the heresy in the first place, he should of known better.


Not quite, Horus's fall more alot more than simply second guessing what the Emperor wanted.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Gree said:


> Not quite.
> 
> There would not be an Imperium without the Ultramarines.
> 
> ...


If Guilliman decided *not to *hold back his forces at Ultramar whilst penning the Codex Astartes and instead fortify Terra, then the Emperor might not have died, yeah. Or would Sanguinius have, and Horus' forces would have been smashed like a rock beneath a mallet against an additional quater-of-a-million Astartes

If Horus' forces suffered even greater losses, the Emperor is not slain and the Imperium's forces are not as scattered, would the Scouring _have even been necessary_? 

Guilliman wasn't corrupt - at least not by Chaos or Xenos; just his colossal arrogance. Regardless, if a hammer-blow by the better part of 250,000 Astartes was struck against Horus' Legions then I doubt the Scouring would have been as bloody, long or exhausting as it originally was...


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Gree said:


> Not quite, Horus's fall more alot more than simply second guessing what the Emperor wanted.


It was the Word Bearers who brought about the Heresy, they second guessed their Emperor despite him repeatedly telling them not to do it.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

bobss said:


> If Guilliman decided *not to *hold back his forces at Ultramar whilst penning the Codex Astartes and instead fortify Terra, then the Emperor might not have died, yeah. Or would Sanguinius have, and Horus' forces would have been smashed like a rock beneath a mallet against an additional quater-of-a-million Astartes


This takes place in the seven years after Istavaan and between Terra. The loyalists are scatterted across the galaxy. It would be wise to be catious and not impetuous.



bobss said:


> If Horus' forces suffered even greater losses, the Emperor is not slain and the Imperium's forces are not as scattered, would the Scouring _have even been necessary_?


We don't know. who knows of what could have happened if he has simply rushed in?



bobss said:


> Guilliman wasn't corrupt - at least not by Chaos or Xenos; just his colossal arrogance.


I see no arrogance, only caution.



bobss said:


> Regardless, if a hammer-blow by the better part of 250,000 Astartes was struck against Horus' Legions then I doubt the Scouring would have been as bloody, long or exhausting as it originally was...


That depends on the situation at the time or when Guilliman's Legion would have been best used. Regardless I would want to read the short story myself and get all the facts.



Words_of_Truth said:


> It was the Word Bearers who brought about the Heresy, they second guessed their Emperor despite him repeatedly telling them not to do it.


Except the Emperor also chatised them himself and lied partially as well. His Imperial Truth had the blief that there where no daemons or gods, thus leaving Astartes blind to Chaos in a manner.

The Emperor never chatised Guilliman personally and then forced him to destroy his onw accomplishments.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Guilliman's arrogance is subjective. You see caution, I see a haughty belief in himself, yeah


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

bobss said:


> Guilliman's arrogance is subjective. You see caution, I see a haughty belief in himself, yeah


I recognise it's subjective, I just take a stand against things I see as wrong.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I love the direction Mcneil is taking the Ultramarines, gives Guilliman a lot more depth imo.

Before I realized they weren't facing the actual Legions mentioned, I was hoping the 'green warriors' weren't the Alpha Legion.

One thing eludes me however, I know they were engaged in laser tag but how about the close combat? Were there any actual deaths? Did the Astartes who got _shot_ just play dead? How about the ones the Dreadnoughts fought and the ones in the blast radius of grenades?


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I love the direction Mcneil is taking the Ultramarines, gives Guilliman a lot more depth imo.
> 
> Before I realized they weren't facing the actual Legions mentioned, I was hoping the 'green warriors' weren't the Alpha Legion.
> 
> One thing eludes me however, I know they were engaged in laser tag but how about the close combat? Were there any actual deaths? Did the Astartes who got _shot_ just play dead? How about the ones the Dreadnoughts fought and the ones in the blast radius of grenades?


Thats what got me wondering as well. Talk about fooling me a shitload here McNeil.

What struck me as well was that apparently according to Guilliman the codex is an instrument to help in the heat of battle, but not the holy bible you have to follow to the end. Isnt that kinda what the book ends up being, the complete opposite of what Guilliman intended?


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## Master_Marius (Sep 5, 2010)

this situation is very funny, a lot of ultramarines players are all the time annoying me calling me traitor and chicken because the DA where late like SW and they said we waited. Now it seems like they were the one who wait. muahahahaha

Now seriously can be fun this turn in the story.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Having read Rules of Engagement, I am of mixed feelings. Chiefly it’s more with McNeill’s interpretation of the Codex Astartes.

(Most of the following is simply copy pasted from another poster on Bolter and Chainsword, but this illustrates my views on the subject.)

The point is that for the past four Editions GW has described the Ultramarines as strictly following the guidelines of the Codex Astartes, while at the same time also describing the Ultramarines as one of the most successful Chapters. 

A logical human being would then probably conclude that Codex Astartes = good. But at some point someone must have thought "but wait, strictly following some rules must be very restrictive and narrow down one's options". And even though that may be contrary to what we are being told about the Ultramarines following the Codex strictly yet being one of the most successful, they just went with this notion. In particular McNeill, who has had several stories where he has an Ultramarine go against the teachings of the Codex to prevail. 

And now this "problem", which did not exist in the original fluff, is being remedied by explaining that "well, of course this restrictive guide is not supposed to be followed strictly in every instance". Instead of maybe saying "well, of course the guide is not really restrictive at all but mainly empowering", which the background so far had always suggested.

E.g. according to McNeill the Codex might say "When fighting against a unit of Orks, _always_ use a heavy bolter". But the unit is fighting in a tunnel system with really dense corridors, so the Sergeant decides to have the 10th Marine use a boltgun instead of an unwieldy Heavy Bolter, and thus "goes against the teachings of the Codex", because in this situation it was better that way. 

But why would the Codex be that restrictive? Why wouldn't the Codex instead say "The past 10,000 years of combat have shown that Orks are usually lightly armored, so a Heavy Bolter is the most useful heavy weapon a Tactical squad could employ against them." while at a different point also explaining "in very confined environments, a Tactical squad should forgo a heavy weapon and instead use an additional boltgun, which would be of more use in such terrain." 

Why, after having studied the military history of Macragge and the Imperium, after fighting for 200 years in the Great Crusade, and after further 10,000 years of additional material being amended, why would the Codex guidelines be so specific and restrictive? It is very counter intuitive, and to me not believable, that Guilliman would have written it that way, based on how Guilliman was described, and based on the record of the Ultramarines.

Rules of Engagement is basically saying that the modern-day Ultramarines do not follow their Primarch's rulings and are actually held back by their interpretation of the Codex in a way. Prior to Chains of Command, the start of the Ultramarines series the Codex was not presented as the Ultramarine’s flaw.

By no means do I want the codex to be the perfect infallible tool, but I don’t like McNeill’s interpretation of it.

As for Guilliman’s descision to stay on Macragge and pen the Codex during the Heresy……

Well this flies in the face of previous fluff when the codex was written post-heresy at the behest of the High Lords and with help from his other Primarchs. Of course this short story does not entirely contradict that series of events, but it’s rather jarring regardless.

They seem to be making Guilliman more like the Lion and introducing elements to his characterization when they simply where not needed before.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Gree said:


> Rules of Engagement is basically saying that the modern-day Ultramarines do not follow their Primarch's rulings and are actually held back by their interpretation of the Codex in a way. Prior to Chains of Command, the start of the Ultramarines series the Codex was not presented as the Ultramarine’s flaw.


 Yes that is indeed what the story is saying, just like how in 40k the Imperium is a religiously tyrannical empire of bloodyminded ignorance, at all odds with the ideal Imperium the Emperor strived for.



Gree said:


> As for Guilliman’s descision to stay on Macragge and pen the Codex during the Heresy……
> 
> Well this flies in the face of previous fluff when the codex was written post-heresy at the behest of the High Lords and with help from his other Primarchs. Of course this short story does not entirely contradict that series of events, but it’s rather jarring regardless.
> 
> They seem to be making Guilliman more like the Lion and introducing elements to his characterization when they simply where not needed before.


Actually the fluff says the Codex was 'presented' to the Astartes post-Scouring not that it was written then, also Guilliman wrote the Codex and included the teachings of other Primarchs but the other Primarchs didn't have a direct hand in it's creation.

Simply not needed? Considering we didn't know that much about Guilliman himself I'd argue they were desperately needed.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Yes that is indeed what the story is saying, just like how in 40k the Imperium is a religiously tyrannical empire of bloodyminded ignorance, at all odds with the ideal Imperium the Emperor strived for.


Which is different than how it's always been previously portrayed and entirely unessecary as well as illogical. The Ultramarines are described as following the teachings of the codex yet are described as one of the most sucessful chapters in the Imperium?

The essencse of what McNeill presents simply does not make sense based on what we know of the Ultramarines. See the earlier example with the heavy bolter that I cited. You can't possibly tell me that someone as brilliant and tactically skilled as Calgar will make such an absurd mistake?

Let me look at the fluff in the Marine Codex again.

Aside from the regulations and duties for Space Marines, the Codex Astartes includes these elements: 



> "The Codex Astartes further defines the tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings of the Space Marines."


That does not sound like it is specifically adressing battlefield manovers in specific circumstances. It sounds more like general and basic information, like that Devastators are equipped with heavy weapons and will provide fire support. No doubt with detailed instructions on how to conduct those types of operations, but again, more in a general sense, not tailored to specific opponents or circumstances. 
But then comes the critical part: 



> "These guidelines have been much added to over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the fourty-first millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history. Some of its contents seem restrictive, hardly worthy of the great mind of a Primarch. Others describe actual battles together with comments on the tactics employed and the decisions of the commanders on the spot."


It seems the "restrictive" parts are some of those that had been added later by other authors. In the last sentence it describes the articles on battles, together with comments, and that sounds a lot like how the Codex Astartes had been described in the old Space Marine Epic rulebook. These battle descriptions will grant the reader insight and experience, rather than telling him specifically how such a battle should be conducted. It will probably contain some comments like "this worked really well", "this did not work as well as we had hoped" or "but they then ambushed the flank and our plan started to fall apart", etc.

I have no problem with the Ultramarines strictly following the guidelines of the Codex Astartes. What I have a problem with is a sudden explanation that allways strictly following the Codex Astartes might be a bad thing, and might cause a Chapter to lose when they could have otherwise won. What I am saying is that when the Codex Astartes makes an explicite suggestion, then that suggestion will be the most beneficial route, but in large parts the Codex will simply not be as specific. You will never have the exact same situation twice, so it would be daft to be overly specific. You will have very similar situations, so you can still learn from the past and make suggestions for future battles. But it is almost impossible to make " you can allways do X, and nothing else, ever" suggestions. 

I do take confort in the fact that the Codex in the story was still a very WIP thing though.



Baron Spikey said:


> Actually the fluff says the Codex was 'presented' to the Astartes post-Scouring not that it was written then, also Guilliman wrote the Codex and included the teachings of other Primarchs but the other Primarchs didn't have a direct hand in it's creation.


Actually no, the orignal Codex Astartes article implies it was only done when Guilliman was charged by the High Lords.

Insignium Astartes



> The High Lords tasked the Ultramarines Primarch Roboute Guilliman with the job of reordering the Imperial military forces. His first duty was to revise the organisation of the Space Marines and to codify their institutions, doctrines and armorials. His conclusions became the almost mythic book known as the Codex Astartes, a work so important its contents still form the basis of Space Marine organisation and tactics ten thousand years after it was originally compiled.


Index Astartes



> The first High Lords laid down the structure by which the Adeptus Terra operates, and described the feudal responsibilities and duties of planetary lords. One of their most important accomplishments was the reorganisation of the Imperium’s armed forces. This task was undertaken almost singlehandedly by the Primarch of the Ultramarine Legion of Space Marines, Roboute Guilliman, who quickly and efficiently codified the structure of the Imperial Guard, the Fleet and the Space Marines. Of all his works the most influential is the Codex Astartes, the great prescriptive tome that lays down the basic organisational and tactical rules for Space Marines. The Horus Heresy had revealed weaknesses in the geneseed of several Space Marine Legions which had been exaggerated by the accelerated zygote harvesting techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength. The powers of Chaos exploited this growing physical and mental corruption to turn Horus’s troops against the Emperor. The prime objective of the new Codex Astartes was to recognise and expunge these weaknesses


.



Baron Spikey said:


> Simply not needed? Considering we didn't know that much about Guilliman himself I'd argue they were desperately needed.


I'm not arguing against fleshing him out, I simply don't think giving him the Lion's old contreversy works, especailly since we are told before in the fluff that Guilliman has unalloyed loyalty to the Emperor.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I just think they are finally getting some edge to their character for onces.


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

One thing you have to appreciate is that despite all the disagreements, GW and it's authors have created such an in depth story that there is a lot of room to actually have these fun debates...

I think the G man is just arrogant and opportunistic personally. It's things like this that add intrigue to the story, regardless of what anyone thinks. On another upside, this has all re-awaken my interest in reading the HH series.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I think it proves that Dorn is the only true heir to the Emperor's Throne


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I just think they are finally getting some edge to their character for onces.


Again, I don't object to them getting character, however I dislike it in this fashion. There are ways to flesh out a chapter without some heavy duty retconning that paints Guilliman in a rather unfavorable light. Ultramarines already have enough criticism directed at them, adding more fuel to the fire is rather annoying. That's why I dislike the new fluff.


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## Hired Goon (Sep 16, 2009)

At the end of Savage Weapons the Lion says "It seems Horus is not the only soul to believe he is heir to the empire"
He is referencing a communication with Guilliman that spoke of staying away from terra.
I am intrigued and confused by this quote.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Hired Goon said:


> At the end of Savage Weapons the Lion says "It seems Horus is not the only soul to believe he is heir to the empire"
> He is referencing a communication with Guilliman that spoke of staying away from terra.
> I am intrigued and confused by this quote.


Not quite, the phrasing is that with the Lion unable to get to Terra Guilliman wants him by his side. The next statement is from a Primarch who doesn't see the big picture and is known for his trust issues.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Gree said:


> Not quite, the phrasing is that with the Lion unable to get to Terra Guilliman wants him by his side. The next statement is from a Primarch who doesn't see the big picture and is known for his trust issues.


I think he's smart enough to realise Guilliman's plans, I mean you'd think his orders would be to make all haste back to Terra, except Guilliman's telling him to go in the opposite direction basically.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I think he's smart enough to release Guilliman's plans, I mean you'd think his orders would be to make all haste back to Terra, except Guilliman's telling him to go in the opposite direction basically.


Actually the author himself says otherwise.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=225896&hl=insult&st=100

Post 106



> Bear in mind that's one sentence from a guy deprived of the bigger picture, at the very, very beginning of a long story arc. It's a hint to set up what's coming in the next few years - not an attack on Guilliman's character. Now, it's open to be read any way at all, and people naturally hating Guilliman will of course see it as Guilliman being a tool (just like when they say that about how he acted in The First Heretic), but that's another case of people bringing their own baggage to the text, and/or getting different things out of it. It's definitely not a clear-cut insult to Guilliman or the Ultramarines, with no intention of attacking their reputation.
> 
> For comparative purposes, judging Guilliman's reputation by that one line is a bit like seeing Luke on Tatooine and saying "Wow, this isn't a story about a Jedi Knight." There's a lot more to come.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Gree said:


> Actually the author himself says otherwise.
> 
> http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=225896&hl=insult&st=100
> 
> Post 106


That doesn't really contradict what I said though. It just says you shouldn't really judge his character on these words alone however the intention is pretty clear, if he's not telling the Lion to head for Terra, then he's telling him to go in the opposite direction and to meet with him.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> That doesn't really contradict what I said though. It just says you shouldn't really judge his character on these words alone however the intention is pretty clear, if he's not telling the Lion to head for Terra, then he's telling him to go in the opposite direction and to meet with him.


No, if Guilliman knew that the Lion ws unable to get to Terra, then it seems logical for him to muster witht he remaining loyalists.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Gree said:


> No, if Guilliman knew that the Lion ws unable to get to Terra, then it seems logical for him to muster witht he remaining loyalists.


Now you're assuming he was unable to tho as well as Guilliman already knowing.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Now you're assuming he was unable to tho as well as Guilliman already knowing.


No, that's what's stated in the story by the Lion himself on pg 408. He states Guilliman knows that they are unable to reach Terra.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

That's wrong though, they weren't even attempting to reach Terra, they where chasing Curze around for ages.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> That's wrong though, they weren't even attempting to reach Terra, they where chasing Curze around for ages.


So the Lion lied to Guilliman then?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Possibly, he's definitely not telling the whole truth since I doubt he would of been chasing Curze around for so long if he was trying to make his way to Terra.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

For once I agree with lion el johnson since he put it best "It would seem like Horus another son seeks the throne"


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## AK74Bob (Oct 2, 2010)

How long does it take to travel from Ultramar to Terra....on average, assuming your ship isn't destroyed by daemons, etc? I was under the impression it took many months.

Plus wouldn't Horus just lower his shields earlier, to get Big E to teleport onto his ship? Horus would still have been warned ahead of time that the Ultramarines were coming, even if they decided to go to Terra earlier. I doubt Guilliman had solid info on wtf was happening on the other side of the galaxy. I thought communications and travel were spotty at best. It just seems that he is more pragmatic than previously thought.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

AK74Bob said:


> How long does it take to travel from Ultramar to Terra....on average, assuming your ship isn't destroyed by daemons, etc? I was under the impression it took many months.
> 
> Plus wouldn't Horus just lower his shields earlier, to get Big E to teleport onto his ship? Horus would still have been warned ahead of time that the Ultramarines were coming, even if they decided to go to Terra earlier. I doubt Guilliman had solid info on wtf was happening on the other side of the galaxy. I thought communications and travel were spotty at best. It just seems that he is more pragmatic than previously thought.


Nope he knew full well what was going on it would seem the guy is just the Usurper of the throne,who gets his ass kicked by Daemon Fulgrim!


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## AK74Bob (Oct 2, 2010)

Can't say I'm a fan. BTW your flying pixie primarch got his ass kicked by Horus


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## TooNu (May 4, 2011)

Hello This is my very first post now I have found your site here.

I have just finished reading Rules of Engagment and while I understand exactly what was going on, I find it hard to beleive that Ultramarines were killing other Ultramarines. It just seems WRONG.

I refer to any grenade kills, flame kills, the 2 dreadnought's of course and perhaps many hand to hand kills. All of these could not really be "faked" with a laser designator.

Any thoughts on this? I see one guy has brought it up before me but I would be interested to hear more views that may help my head get around this...story. :dunno:


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

TooNu said:


> Hello This is my very first post now I have found your site here.
> 
> I have just finished reading Rules of Engagment and while I understand exactly what was going on, I find it hard to beleive that Ultramarines were killing other Ultramarines. It just seems WRONG.
> 
> ...


It's possible the marine who was describing what was occurring was simply dramatising the event to add realism to it. Just the same as he said Ultramarines where going down from bolter shots etc.


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## TooNu (May 4, 2011)

I suppose this is a possible explanation, though, being a military man such as Remus is I would doubt that dramatisation would play a part in how he would recall the event. It would be a bit more fact based.

Though yes it being a bit "hammed up" would make for better reading, and it does. It's just a very confusing story.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Azkaellon said:


> Nope he knew full well what was going on it would seem the guy is just the Usurper of the throne,who gets his ass kicked by Daemon Fulgrim!


Not quite. Guilliman knew that Horus rebled against the Emperor, but it did't seem like he had much more than that. Remember, it was a mere two years after Calth. Guilliman is not omnipresent.

And I would hardly say he is an usurper, it's made rather clear in the short story that Guilliman is not working against the Emperor (In Iron Within he actually helps the Emperor via Nicodemus helping Dantioch tie up a good portion of Horus-loyal Iron Warriors) nor does Guilliman desire the Emperor's throne at the expense of his brother primarchs.

Rather, his actions where an attempt to perserve the Emperor's ideals. The Impeirum Primus was dead. The Lion's comment is from a man with trust issues and who does not know the whole picture or Guilliman's true intentions.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I think despite the fact there was trouble with travelling, he should of attempted it rather than putting it off and trying to preserve his own little empire. 

I think the bit said by the Lion about "knowing we're having trouble with travelling" was a deliberate bite at Roboute for using it as an excuse for not trying.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I think despite the fact there was trouble with travelling, he should of attempted it rather than putting it off and trying to preserve his own little empire.
> 
> I think the bit said by the Lion about "knowing we're having trouble with travelling" was a deliberate bite at Roboute for using it as an excuse for not trying.


That's not really accurate at all. Guilliman was not trying to peserve Ultramar at the expense at the rest of the galaxy. He was attempting perserve the Imperium itself. Forgotten Sons and Iron Within both feature Ultramarines working against Horus in a wider galaxy effort.

You make it sound like he placed Ultramar first at the expense of everybody else, when that's not really true at all.

We saw him doing wargames on Ultramar two years after Calth. We don't know what he did for five years after that or what Guilliman's plan to defeat Horus was.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Gree said:


> That's not really accurate at all. Guilliman was not trying to peserve Ultramar at the expense at the rest of the galaxy. He was attempting perserve the Imperium itself. Forgotten Sons and Iron Within both feature Ultramarines working against Horus in a wider galaxy effort.
> 
> You make it sound like he placed Ultramar first at the expense of everybody else, when that's not really true at all.
> 
> We saw him doing wargames on Ultramar two years after Calth. We don't know what he did for five years after that or what Guilliman's plan to defeat Horus was.


Those Ultramarines in the stories you mentioned you merely porlonging Horus's march, both a benefit to the Emperor as well as Roboute as it also gives him more time. The wargames on Ultramar where wargames looking at an invasion of the Ultramarine's world, again protecting his little Empire. 

None of the information given suggests he has any intent of actually helping the Emperor, everything he's done is insular to what would happen to his Empire. 

While you can say he's only doing it to make sure the Emperor's vision remains, the fact remains that he's not sending forces to help the Emperor directly, he's remaining at home and he's asking for other nearby legions to come to him instead of the Emperor.

I'd say this is a negative reaction to his "beloved" father being in danger, where as others like Dorn, The Angel and The Khan did the best they could do to protect him, despite problems they also had to deal with.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> The wargames on Ultramar where wargames looking at an invasion of the Ultramarine's world, again protecting his little Empire.


No, that was merely used to use in the creation of the Codex Astartes, a document intended to save the entire Imperium. Ultramar would have already had training grounds and planets for Ultramarine use, it made sense to use it.

Nowhere at all in the short story does Guilliman imply that he is placing Ultramar over the Imperium.



Words_of_Truth said:


> None of the information given suggests he has any intent of actually helping the Emperor, everything he's done is insular to what would happen to his Empire.


He prolongs Horus's march on Terra in Iron Within and attempts to form a coalition against Horus. Guilliman states he also has a plan. He's taking his time, trying to peserve the Emperor's ideals first. He even thinks this is something his father would want him to do.



Words_of_Truth said:


> While you can say he's only doing it to make sure the Emperor's vision remains, the fact remains that he's not sending forces to help the Emperor directly, he's remaining at home and he's asking for other nearby legions to come to him instead of the Emperor.


Not quite, we do know that Guilliman came to help the Emperor eventually. It only makes sense that he retrains his Legion for fighting other Astartes and attempts to make the foundation of a new Imperium that can survive the Civil war.

His attempting have the Lion join him was only logical (the Lion himself earlier mentions wanting to join Guilliman in the same short story) If the Lion cannot help the Emperor then he could be of great use in Guilliman's plan to defeat Horus.



Words_of_Truth said:


> I'd say this is a negative reaction to his "beloved" father being in danger, where as others like Dorn, The Angel and The Khan did the best they could do to protect him, despite problems they also had to deal with.


All of those Legions had the luxery of being much closer to the Emperor than Guilliman. If you read the short story it's clear Guiliman agonises over his choice and it's presented as very difficult for him to do.

Ultimately, everything Guilliman has done was for his father and his ideals as he himself states.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

If he'd done what was right and set off to help is father, then the Emperor may not of needed to enthroned, the problem will Guilliman was he was to set on statistics and not the fundamental nature of humankind which is hope against the odds, he didn't take into account heroics etc.

He may not be guilty of betraying the Emperor but he's definitely guilty of betraying the Imperium of man.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> If he'd done what was right and set off to help is father, then the Emperor may not of needed to enthroned, .


We have hindsight, Guilliman does not. However keep in mind at the time of the short story it was two years after Calth. Horus was not at Terra yet. Who knows what would have happned had Guilliman moved early? He could have been ambushed and defeat by Horus.



Words_of_Truth said:


> the problem will Guilliman was he was to set on statistics and not the fundamental nature of humankind which is hope against the odds, he didn't take into account heroics etc.


Have you read the short story? Guilliman flat out says that individual heroics are important and that statistics are not all important to one o fhis own officers. Guilliman even states that he is not perfect and is wrong sometimes.



Words_of_Truth said:


> He may not be guilty of betraying the Emperor but he's definitely guilty of betraying the Imperium of man.


Not at all. If anythign his actions helped save the Imperium's core values from being forever lost. There would be no Imperium without Guilliman.

Kor Phaeron stated that Guilliman has the Emperor's Soul in A First Heretic, out of all the Primarchs he probably understood the Emperor's vision the best. Of course that's from the mouth of a Word Bearer trying to turn Lorgar to Chaos, but it nicely fits with Guilliman's character and mindset.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Don't forget that the Ultramarines also collected means to protect them against enemies by the means of other Legions. Look at the Iron Warriors that offered to help them in that.  Im quite curious what will happen to them.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

I say we burn the userper smurfs! Or just send Russ to "talk" with them


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Azkaellon said:


> I say we burn the userper smurfs! Or just send Russ to "talk" with them


What usurpers? You have't offered a very good argument yet.


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## Alvarius (May 10, 2011)

*Explanation wanted*

It would be nice if an author from the HH series could explain exactly how RG managed to pull of the test of his tactics. Did he actually kill his own men? Did he build robots to fool his own soldiers? 

I love the HH books, but this story really irritates me. It feels to simple. "Okej, I want to test an idea". Well, just let our own troops fight other marines... okej, but HOW? Would be better if the whole squad was sleeping while the test took place in their minds, with RG monitoring it from the "outside". 

Please, give me some hope on this one... anubody?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

The main thing I took from "Age of Darkness" was the continuation of the trend of irony within the 40k milieu. That is, in the sense that the more we find out about the Heresy, the more we realize how incorrect our assumptions--via the "historical documents" of the "current" era--were.

There are many instances of this. The Crusade-era Imperium was lionized, mythologized, idealized. Then we came to find out that it was aimed at being a secular utopia, not the theocracy of 40k-timeframe. On the other hand, though, the brutality of the Imperium was alive and well even then. It wasn't the golden realm of the puissant Emperor that everyone thought it was; there were cybernetic servitors, slaves, a general lack of free will, infighting, corruption, greed, etc.

The Lion's timing has been a source of discussion for a long time. Why was he late? Could he have changed the course of the Siege of Terra? Astelan's words in "Angels of Darkness" were taken as canon for a long time, but the latest stories throw our assumptions back to our faces. In return, we now get to wonder about Guilliman's aims, and how they affected the Heresy in general and the fates of the Emperor and Sanguinius specifically. To say nothing of Dorn, or of the shape the Imperium would eventually take with Guilliman sitting as one of the High Lords of Terra. For a long time, the theme of the Ultramarines holding the Imperium together following the Heresy and during the Scouring been about as canon as it gets. Even the most staunch detractors of the XIII Legion's Primarch on this forums limited themselves to questioning his ambitions _after_ the Siege was done.

It's a neat twist. Curze foreshadows what will come by warning the Lion that some will question his reputation; Guilliman himself wonders how people will view him. The former had no choice about getting to Terra; the latter consciously chose to not go.

Where the depiction of the Codex Astartes is concerned, though, I think the writers--Mr. McNeill specifically--are taking a different tack. Most of the thematic changes we've seen so far seem calculated in the sense that there would always be "stunning" developments in a mythologized past for which the people in the modern days had only a partial understanding. With the Codex, though, I think it's part that and part the authors saying "You know what? We're not superhuman military geniuses, and perhaps we did not convey what the Codex was and how it works properly the first time around."

The ironic zinger part, of course, is that just as the Imperium became this theocratic regime contrary to the Emperor's will, neither did Guilliman intend for his Codex to become this "end-all be-all" guide on how to fight. The tragedy of the Codex is in this sense kind of what happened to the Imperium, but on a micro scale.

The retcon, in my opinion, stems from the fact that the original depiction of the Codex didn't reconcile even with what limited (as compared to millennia of future development) military sciences we have available today. Ask anyone who's in the military: there are doctrinal handbooks, pamphlets, and guides ascribing proper tactical decisions to platoon-level leaders (think a mere 30-40 fighting men) that combined to _*hundreds*_ of pages alone on their own. The idea that the Ultramarines somehow stymied themselves or set themselves up for tactical blunders by limiting themselves to a compilation of tactical directives is silly. I'm willing to bet that most regular or irregular military forces out there with access to the internet are well aware of what an L-shaped ambush entails. Knowing what it is, however, and fighting your way out of it during its execution are two completely different things. It's laughable to assert that the Ultramarines would have been doomed to lose on that context. If that were the case, the past ten centuries or so of European warfare (that period of time when tactics and strategy were increasingly recorded, codified, and taught) would have featured nothing more than pointless stalemates OR defeats for anyone who stuck by "the book". Neither was the case.

On top of all that, though, Guilliman was a super-genius; and his troops were superhuman! So of course it should have always been something more than some obscure textbook with no real discernible breadth or depth, and with only limited examples as to its guidance (which is what it was originally described as). And now we DO get a better idea of what a demigod among men with an intellect that is to ours as ours is to pre-school children could devise. It's a product that comes in two parts; the first being the accumulated tactical and operational acumen of a being like Guilliman, and the second being the eidetic memory and mental processing capability of an Astartes. An Astartes applies his tactical and/or operational situation to his mentally compartmentalized Codex, and in turn comes back with the suggestion from the Codex that is most likely to produce the results desired both for his unit and those around him.

But, again, it's not meant to remove individual initiative.

I'm not going to jump on the "Guilliman betrayed the Imperium" bandwagon. It's clear he feels that, in the wake of Calth and Isstvan V, the Imperium is lost. More than likely, he's looking at it in the sense of "two Legions are wiped out, the Primarch of a third is slain, the Thousand Sons are gone, the Wolves of Fenris are themselves badly hurt, the Dark Angels are stranded out there, the Blood Angels have also taken a beating (depending on when this story is set) and eight (or nine, again, depending on the timing of the story) Legions are arrayed against Terra.

The Lion, for his part, clearly thinks machinations are at work. At the beginning of "Savage Weapons", he implies only frustration as to not knowing where Guilliman is. By the end of it, his implications point to Guilliman's ambitions--in regards to being an heir to the Imperium.

That doesn't mean he's right. And no, I don't think this has to do with trust issues--that old meme doesn't hold up to close scrutiny. I think this comes down to the Lion's pragmatism.

Good stuff, though. I'm really liking the developing picture of the Heresy, the Imperium, and its players. 

Cheers,
P.


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## Moriar the Forsaken (Apr 18, 2011)

^ I agree with Phoebus


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## Alvarius (May 10, 2011)

Guilliman was a super-genius! But how did he manage to pull his test of in RoE?


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

I think that the biggest thing in all of this is that the Emperor made 'Creator' Primarchs along with 'Destroyer' Primarchs. Guilliman is clearly a 'Creator' Primarch in that he is an empire builder, much in the same way that the Emperor is an empire builder, Guilliman just did it on a smaller scale before he was found by the Emperor. Perhaps the Emperor made Guilliman as cautious and thoughtful as he did so that when he was inevitably betrayed by one or more of his sons, there would be the closest approximation of himself as an empire builder left to pick up the pieces and put them back together. The fact that the Imperium has stood for ten thousand years (give or take) post heresy says quite a bit about Guilliman and the first Lords of Terra and their ability to learn the lessons of the Heresy and use them to create a more lasting Imperium of Man.


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## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

They used more advanced laser tag. If you saw Starship Troopers the training guns they use.


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## Alvarius (May 10, 2011)

Okej, and close combat, how did they do that? This advanced lacer tag tactic should be used against real enemies, would be a nice trick to fool them before you attack from a diffrent direction.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I think we can safely say that, however they did it, the UM's and others in the wargames didn't kill each other. It would be rather pointless wouldn't it?
Also, can we say that the DA's 'help from an unexpected quarter' is the UMs and Guilliman? I'd always wondered at the DA, SW and UM all arriving at about the same time during the Siege of Terra; if Guilliman, Jonson and Russ are all close to each other in space, them it answers the question.
One thing I got from the book was that those fighting for Horus all knew, or at least the ones higher up, that the ideals of the Imperium would never be rebuilt after the betrayl. No longer could an Imperium be open,tolerant (well it was a bit more than the 40K one!) or proclaim the Truth. Forevermore, there would be suspicion of all, questing for the hidden darkness, innocence forever sacrificed at the altar of 'what if...'. Guilliman sees this, he knows that what once was can never be rebuilt. Humanity will need something else, something new and previously unthinkable.
He understands that winning isn't just holding the field at the end of an important battle. You can win battles and still lose the war. He has a huge Legion, he is trying to pull closer to Jonson- Jonson has tried to get back to Terra and can't; the Warp is even stopping his Astropaths (although we know this because even Malcador is unable to gather enough information to work out what is really happening). Having a reserve that is worth something is almost a luxury at this point, but what else should he do? Can't he trust his brothers closer to Terra to fight as hard as he would? Of course he can. The Custodians and the Silent Sisters will be there, as will loyal Titan Legions and Loyal Mechanicum, and loyal Imperial Army and Navy. We know the Emperor was busy holding back Daemons in the Imperial Dungeon, but we don't know if he could have any affect on the battle on the surface. Guilliman has the opportunity to gather something precious- time and troops. He would be more of a betrayer if he threw this away to run the gauntlet of Warp storms, only to throw his men into the grinder at the end.
It's about time Guilliman became more than a background cypher. Many have accused him of arrogance, but point to a Primarch who isn't. 
Jonson might be the immediate view, Horus the driving force, Guilliman the long view. Each viewing the other's desires without full knowledge will necessarily be suspicious.

GFP

Oh, I really agree with Phoebus!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Also, can we say that the DA's 'help from an unexpected quarter' is the UMs and Guilliman?


Just on a side note, it was the Wolves who recieved _"help from an unexpected quater"_, not the Angels.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Just on a side note, it was the Wolves who recieved _"help from an unexpected quater"_, not the Angels.


I thought the unexpected help for the Wolves was the White Scars?


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## Alvarius (May 10, 2011)

Okej, but how did they do it? Does it not bother anybody that they don´t exaplin how things happen? I mean, it´s pretty simple to write things down, without explaining it. So, does anybody have an idea just how RG simulated close combat? And the wounds that they recieved?


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

Computers, computerized training weapons, and math? I would gather that there is some sort of arbitrary percentage chance of any give weapon damaging/lethally damaging an opponent in various marks of power armor and a sophisticated computer could keep track of those calculations throughout a battle, thus allowing the notifications to blink out when someone was killed. They would have to have the same kind of system in place for the ranged combat anyway.


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## Alvarius (May 10, 2011)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> I think we can safely say that, however they did it, the UM's and others in the wargames didn't kill each other.


Yupp, that´s the question... How did they do it? Close combat? Is it just me that´s interested in this one? If you can write a story with this kinda gaps, then the stories become silly.


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## PALADIN (Nov 25, 2010)

Ok this is gonna sound thick but I assume that all the scenarios in that 1st story iro the UMs were fake batle tests? Why the one attacking Salamanders though!!!!!!?????? Would they (UMs) not have known they (Salamanders) were not traitors by then? 

Confused.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

PALADIN said:


> Ok this is gonna sound thick but I assume that all the scenarios in that 1st story iro the UMs were fake batle tests? Why the one attacking Salamanders though!!!!!!?????? Would they (UMs) not have known they (Salamanders) were not traitors by then?
> 
> Confused.


Because the UMs didn't know who they could trust and thus began training for all potential enemies, including what we know as those who really did stay loyal.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I thought the unexpected help for the Wolves was the White Scars?


i always thought it would be the DA coming to help SW and thats why they got delayed. i thought the lion had the unmost respect for russ even if they had the mother of all brotherly scraps and he wouldnt want to just leave him to get destroyed. did the fight with the lion and curze happen before or after this rescue of the wolves, anyone know?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Unknown Primarch said:


> i always thought it would be the DA coming to help SW and thats why they got delayed. i thought the lion had the unmost respect for russ even if they had the mother of all brotherly scraps and he wouldnt want to just leave him to get destroyed. did the fight with the lion and curze happen before or after this rescue of the wolves, anyone know?


Before I believe, Space Wolves where heading towards Terra when the Siege was half way through I believe. I think it says in the collected visions that the the White Scars had to leave the Space Wolves to fend for themselves at some point as well.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Because the UMs didn't know who they could trust and thus began training for all potential enemies, including what we know as those who really did stay loyal.


_'Terminator suits reached Maccrage just after news of the massacre at Isstvan'_

Guilliman knew, as did Ultramar, that the Salamanders, Raven Guard and Iron Hands had taken massive casualties, with the death of a Primarch. So this is a poor error on McNeill's record, unfortunately.

If the Ultramarines had been attacking faux Dark Angels, things would have been much, much, more interesting...


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

bobss said:


> _'Terminator suits reached Maccrage just after news of the massacre at Isstvan'_
> 
> Guilliman knew, as did Ultramar, that the Salamanders, Raven Guard and Iron Hands had taken massive casualties, with the death of a Primarch. So this is a poor error on McNeill's record, unfortunately.
> 
> If the Ultramarines had been attacking faux Dark Angels, things would have been much, much, more interesting...


He was planning for all eventualities, the fact the Salamanders took massive causalities wouldn't rule them out his planning.


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## radicallight (Sep 1, 2009)

Maybe RG new that the emperor was corrupted by chaos and needed to be purged. It could be that the emperor knew it himself, and needed Horus to cleans the galaxy before the new order could b established. It seems unlikely that big E didn't know what all of his son's were doing, especially Magnus. The heresy was blatantly an inside job.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I thought the unexpected help for the Wolves was the White Scars?


No, the White Scars had left the Wolves to their fate (albeit reluctantly) and returned to Terra.



Unknown Primarch said:


> did the fight with the lion and curze happen before or after this rescue of the wolves, anyone know?


Before obviously. The Dark Angels wouldn't have mustered the entire Legion and arrived at Prospero to rescure the Wolves (especially when taking into account the Dark Angels didn't really have a clue what was going on throughout the rest of the Imperium) and then returned to the galactic east and engaged the Night Lords... 

The Dark Angels were stationed in the galactic east just before the Heresy and essentially were stuck there (due to warp activity) during the early stages/most of the Heresy.

This _"help from an unexpected quater"_, unless it was something to do with the Alpha Legion themselves was unlikely to have come from any Astartes Legion in my opinion.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

but in savage weapons the one of the DA made a comment on already having come across the wolves and seeming not too keen to meet them again. im thinking that they had already rescued them but then could that be the fight between the lion and russ they are remembering. all signs to me are pointing to it being the lion who comes to the rescue and would add abit more weight to him not fence sitting and actually helping one of his loyal brothers instead. but then the lion seems to be on course to meet up with guilleman. this is one of the lesser mysteries im looking forward to finding out about.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Unknown Primarch said:


> but in savage weapons the one of the DA made a comment on already having come across the wolves and seeming not too keen to meet them again. im thinking that they had already rescued them but then could that be the fight between the lion and russ they are remembering.


 Or he could be referring to any time in the last *250 years*(!) of the Great Crusade when the Legions undoubtedly campaigned together.



Unknown Primarch said:


> all signs to me are pointing to it being the lion who comes to the rescue and would add abit more weight to him not fence sitting and actually helping one of his loyal brothers instead. but then the lion seems to be on course to meet up with guilleman. this is one of the lesser mysteries im looking forward to finding out about.


What signs? Bit more weight to his not fence sitting? Was the explicit statement that he was a die hard loyalist in _Savage Weapons_ not enough?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Baron Spikey said:


> Or he could be referring to any time in the last *250 years*(!) of the Great Crusade when the Legions undoubtedly campaigned together.
> 
> 
> What signs? Bit more weight to his not fence sitting? Was the explicit statement that he was a die hard loyalist in _Savage Weapons_ not enough?


I don't think it was explicit. Tbh I thought the fight was a bit stupid, it was more like how brothers fight than people who want to kill each other.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> Or he could be referring to any time in the last *250 years*(!) of the Great Crusade when the Legions undoubtedly campaigned together.
> 
> 
> What signs? Bit more weight to his not fence sitting? Was the explicit statement that he was a die hard loyalist in _Savage Weapons_ not enough?


well the fight between the lion and russ was probably the last time they ever campaigned together for obvious reasons so that incident was probably what he was refering to. 

and whats with the hostile commenting, just because they have shown us that the lion was fighting curze for 2 years and warpstorms stopped him getting to terra first doesnt mean that its clear cut what the lions intensions were. we still have him giving those siege cannons to perturabo which could be seen as abit dubious and also what is his problem with some of his own legion. i reread angel of darkness the other day and it still has a effect on my thinking of the lion weither its true or not. id say there is abit more needed to be addressed before we can have concrete evidence on him being loyal.
while we have got proof that he is loyal we also have proof alpharius is a traitor but yet saves corax which doesnt seem traitory to me. 
i still think will see the darkness in the lion come out at some point or maybe he is loyal and just didnt trust certain people because of failure. he wanted the power of warmaster simply because he believes he is the first primarch so should be the main guy and when he goes back to caliban after seeing his father mortally wounded he takes his rage out on the seemingly traitors that fired on him. certainly looking forward to seeing if astelan was right or not.


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## Alvarius (May 10, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> He was planning for all eventualities, the fact the Salamanders took massive causalities wouldn't rule them out his planning.


RB knew that the Salamanders was of the chart, and a lojal legion. RoE is just a poor enrty in the HH.series. I hate to say it, but its a fact. It doesn´t tell us how RB maganges to pull his test off. And nobody can explain how the close combat worked in his test, wounds etc. I wonder why not any of the other authors remarked at this... It´s a shame really, I love the Ultramarines.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Alvarius said:


> RB knew that the Salamanders was of the chart, and a lojal legion. RoE is just a poor enrty in the HH.series. I hate to say it, but its a fact. It doesn´t tell us how RB maganges to pull his test off. And nobody can explain how the close combat worked in his test, wounds etc. I wonder why not any of the other authors remarked at this... It´s a shame really, I love the Ultramarines.


I couldn't agree more 

The rest of the entires were good, some were rememberable and poignant (The Last Remembrancer and Little Horus) others were enjoyable reads (Iron Within and Savage Weapons). But overall, Rules of Engagement, being the opening story of the anthology was poor - and soured the rest of the novel.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm only going by how I perceived the explanation in the story.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

All part of the Emps. plan.

Yes, they did take longer to get there - but the Emp. knew they were coming. Why go up to meet Horus when it was just a matter of time before the other 3 Legions showed up? Horus knew it was hopeless and the Emp. had won, why go to his ship?

This is just how the Emp. rolls. I can not believe he didn't think that Lorgar would turn after his Humiliation, nor that Magnus would stop using sorcery. I think he ultimately planned the Heresy.

There are inconsistancies like this throughout the whole HH series. Here is an easy one that would have stopped the whole Heresy. Why did the Luna wolves put Horus in a stasis field and than take him down to Davin? All they had to do was trek back to Terra and deliver the fallen Warmaster to the Emperor and the Emp would have cured him (I think that would be well within his power, he did defeat the full power of all 4 chaos gods at once). The stasis field would have worked, it has kept Papa smurf 'alive' all these years.

We are talking about a being that defeated the Void Dragon as part of a plan that streteched over 45k years. How in the heck could he not have seen all of this comiing?

Pappa smurf and his entourage didn't show up in time because the Emperor did not want them to. They may have thought they had free will, but the Emp. was the puppet master all along.


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