# What now for the Death Cult?



## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

So Power weapons have had a major shake up.
I'm just wondering how that impacts on the DCA?

Gone are the 3 WS5 I6 armour ignoring attacks so have they been nerfed off the table?

I'm not sure where to head with mine. I am thinking of giving them Power Mauls to maintain their Ini advantage and give them 3 WS5 S6 attacks which is ok I guess and then back them up, or more correctly have in front of them some Crusaders with axes to cover them and tidy up at the end.

Any thoughts?


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

You can give them two different PW and choose which to use during your phase, without any penalty, so despite the PW nerf, Death Cults are still quite powerful. I'm thinking Mauls and Swords but haven't decided yet.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Mauls and Swords do look like the best combo for them. And against things they can't AP they could use the higher strength value of the maul to both make everything they hit go at I1 (good for forcing Terminators with power weapons to a low initiative) and force more saves.

Personally I think that the ability to take Axes has been a stealth buff to Crusaders. S4 with a 3++ save, if you can get Jacobus (or Feel No Pain from somewhere else) they get pretty durable for something that's only 1 wound, T3 and 15 points. At the very least it's made me consider upping the number of Crusaders _I_ run on a regular basis from up from 2.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Thing is you only stun them if you wound them so it maybe isn't as great as it seems at first glance, but I think they still are fairly useful.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Thing is you only stun them if you wound them so it maybe isn't as great as it seems at first glance, but I think they still are fairly useful.


I've always been a bit muddled on that, do you have to wound them and they fail the armor save, or just wound them?


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

How about don't charge 2+ armour saves?


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Sakura_ninja said:


> How about don't charge 2+ armour saves?


Sometimes it's charge it and take a lesser hit than get charged by it. Yes ideally don't charge it. But sometimes you need too to either protect other things (say the shootier part of your army) or because you're going to get shot and charged on their turn anyways.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

The stun occurs when you cause an unsaved wound so it really only comes into play on multiwound models.

Sure you can avoid +2 armour but the whole point of 5th Ed DCA was how they could punch above their weight to bring down the heavies.

What I am trying to decide is whether to retask them as horde munchers or keep them as giant killers.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Magpie_Oz said:


> The stun occurs when you cause an unsaved wound so it really only comes into play on multiwound models.
> 
> Sure you can avoid +2 armour but the whole point of 5th Ed DCA was how they could punch above their weight to bring down the heavies.
> 
> What I am trying to decide is whether to retask them as horde munchers or keep them as giant killers.


Ah, well it's a thing to do to Warriors and Paladins at least.

Hoarde munching is something they do well. By giants do you mean MCs or just Heavy Infantry in general?


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

I guess I am meaning the +2 boys that they used to be able to cheaply level all by them selves.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Zion said:


> Sometimes it's charge it and take a lesser hit than get charged by it. Yes ideally don't charge it. But sometimes you need too to either protect other things (say the shootier part of your army) or because you're going to get shot and charged on their turn anyways.


I would just run away out of charge range and shoot or engage/move up something more suitable, if you don't have that well that's your fault.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Sakura_ninja said:


> I would just run away out of charge range and shoot or engage/move up something more suitable, if you don't have that well that's your fault.


Yes because every army has TEQs that they can throw around.

Sometimes shooting doesn't go to well, or they save more than they should, or you're trying to protect an objective or they're playing Grey Knights or Deathwing or some other Terminator heavy list.

There are a lot of reasons you might charge Terminators, trying to finish them off, tarpitting them to protect other parts of your army, ect. It's not all cut and dry where you can say "I only do things this way".

Then again I play from a pre-built all-comers sort of list. I actually have several for different point levels that I use. I arrange a game, decide points and already have what I'm going to bring ready to go. It makes things smoother and I have to adapt to what I have, rather than adapt to what my opponent brings.

Also good practice you play the occasional tourney.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Everything has a terminator counter, be it AP2 shooting or combat, or mass fire, everybody does.

And if your protecting an objective its better to yield it than lose a unit for no gain and counter attack with more suitable forces, you don't just throw stuff away hoping for the best, and tarpitting is just a delay tactic, its worthless without a proper counter

And I would rather not play in tournaments, they don't teach you anything, except how to rules lawyer, build static lists and bring death to imagination, it also does not help that 40k is a terrible competitive ruleset


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Sakura_ninja said:


> Everything has a terminator counter, be it AP2 shooting or combat, or mass fire, everybody does.
> 
> And if your protecting an objective its better to yield it than lose a unit for no gain and counter attack with more suitable forces, you don't just throw stuff away hoping for the best, and tarpitting is just a delay tactic, its worthless without a proper counter
> 
> And I would rather not play in tournaments, they don't teach you anything, except how to rules lawyer, build static lists and bring death to imagination, it also does not help that 40k is a terrible competitive ruleset


Not everyone can bring massed AP1/2 though, and though weight of fire generally works there are times were things just don't want to die.

You must have run into some pretty bad tournaments then. I've become a much stronger player being forced against strong lists, learning how to counter particular strategies and gained a stronger understanding of the rules.

Thanks to playing Sisters my lists have not varied very much, but they have evolved. And I've been willing to experiment with new ideas or combinations to see how it all works.

I will admit though I'm likely the exception not the rule. To date the best I've ever placed is 3/10 with my Sisters and tend to place in about the middle, but I enjoy a challenging game and try to at least give the other guy a run for his money.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I'll throw in that there's often more than just Terminators on the field. It's a choice - if I shoot the Paladins, my Thousand Sons survive, but my Obliterators get charged by a Dreadknight they could've brought down with their Plasma Guns instead of using their Cannons on the Terminators. Either way, I'll lose something.

Not that target priority is a bad thing, just thought I'd say that mass fire isn't always an option because a good list has many targets to shoot at, all will punish you in their own way if you don't deal with them.

Midnight


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> I'll throw in that there's often more than just Terminators on the field. It's a choice - if I shoot the Paladins, my Thousand Sons survive, but my Obliterators get charged by a Dreadknight they could've brought down with their Plasma Guns instead of using their Cannons on the Terminators. Either way, I'll lose something.
> 
> Not that target priority is a bad thing, just thought I'd say that mass fire isn't always an option because a good list has many targets to shoot at, all will punish you in their own way if you don't deal with them.
> 
> Midnight


That's a good point too. I didn't even think of bringing that up.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Lots of AP1/2 weapons and massed firepower are the two things that GK do not have, hence my concern.

Sure there is a solution but it seems now rather than just having 1 unit to sort out enemy TEQ's I'm needing to divert more resources.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Lots of AP1/2 weapons and massed firepower are the two things that GK do not have, hence my concern.


What do you mean, GK have some of the best massed firepower of any army. Stormbolters and Psycannons mean you are getting more shots off each turn while mobile than most others. 

Anyway Sakura you are missing the point, those of use who use DCA obviously have issues with dealing with Termies or other Assault units. For instance, if a Landraider survives to get up to my gun line thanks to bad rolls on my part, the only answer I have rather than getting steamrolled by CC is a DCA counter strike.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Arcane said:


> What do you mean, GK have some of the best massed firepower of any army. Stormbolters and Psycannons mean you are getting more shots off each turn while mobile than most others.


Sure our guys have good gins and lots of shots BUT we ain't got that many guys.

I just played against Necron, his Lycheguard and Barges were putting out a hell of a lot more shots than me.


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