# Is technology in the 40k universe progressing or regressing?



## palefire (Jul 30, 2011)

In several of the novels I've read, technology in the Imperium seems to be regressing over time. In the Grey Knights novels, it's indicated that the technological feats of the past have often been lost, particularly as older ships were built better than new ships. There are a few other examples, but that is the one that comes to mind.

I've read a number of other novels and one or two of the codexes, so I don't know if this is a theme across all of the stories.

This seems odd to me, particularly as the Mechanicus should have had more efficient, effective means of holding on to the knowledge of the past and improving upon it.

Am I missing something or is the Imperium's technology in 40k regressing? If so, why?


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## nicegirl13 (Aug 18, 2011)

One thing i am pretty sure is that there was a time in the 40k universe called the dark time, and from what i could see the technology was progressing ALOT in that time but most of that technology is gone and in the 40k ("present time") they cant figuer out how they made some of it, if not all of that technology. I am not sure if they are regressing but one thing is for sure, they cant figuer out the "old technology" and again if i am not wrong the space marine around is something from the pass, and cant be recreated, they simply repair the armors (what i remember from the Ultramarines novel serie) 

if ask me they might be some progress but aint much, the technology has simply stopped, but thats what i think. 

hopefully some has greater knowlege, that can answer your question, i also want to know =D


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

The technological levels of M41 is very stagnant and the designs of some of the better technologies are gone. Right now the Adaptes Mechanicus pretty much controls 90% of all technological facilities and forge worlds, meaning they have a solid grip on what is created and what is produced. At first that might sound dandy, but the Adaptes Mechanicus is very very religious about technology and very paranoid to new inventions, meaning that if some sort of equipment is somewhat unorthodox, then it is considered heretical and destroyed . Also, even though they are amazing at the art of technology, they have a complete lack of understanding when it comes to reverse engineering.

They see things like landraiders, old battle ships and tactical dreadnaught armor as relics, meaning they don't like to mess with them. Because of that, replacing or creating new versions is considered a extremely difficult and controversial task. If they are successful are replicating an old piece of technology, then it is usually weaker and poorer in quality than the version they copied.

In layman's terms, because of the Mechanicus's control over technology plus the paranoia and zealotry behind it, advancement in any field is very very very slow or non existent.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

nicegirl13 said:


> One thing i am pretty sure is that there was a time in the 40k universe called the dark time, and from what i could see the technology was progressing ALOT in that time but most of that technology is gone and in the 40k ("present time") they cant figuer out how they made some of it, if not all of that technology. I am not sure if they are regressing but one thing is for sure, they cant figuer out the "old technology" and again if i am not wrong the space marine around is something from the pass, and cant be recreated, they simply repair the armors (what i remember from the Ultramarines novel serie)
> 
> if ask me they might be some progress but aint much, the technology has simply stopped, but thats what i think.
> 
> hopefully some has greater knowlege, that can answer your question, i also want to know =D


They CAN make power armor it just takes a long time to make it and THEN ship it, so it's usually faster to fix what you have, also I remember someone mentioning most of the new stuff goes to the new chapters.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

It's a mixed bag. There is some stuff from the Heresy era their no longer able to create (ie jetbikes) but not that much. They do also develop and rediscover new things. On the whole it's fairly stagnant. Most of the advanced tech they can produce, but at a slower pace. This really is the Imperium's major problem- logistics. 

The problem in regards to technological progression as That Other Guy said is the Mechanicus' monopoly and attitude. They literally worship machines and as such don't like to mess around with them, for fear of offending the machine god. They are also very secretive and things that may be discovered on one forgeworld are unlikely to be shared with others. Additionally because they revere and worship the machines it means that they probably work on some of the advanced stuff personally- as in hand crafted. This again is going to slow down the production times. 

That said their are factions of the Mechancius that do believe in innovation and there is research going on. They seem to rediscover old tech fairly often and re integrate it into the Imperium's arsenal. It just has to be properly scrutinised, blessed and deemed heresy free, then disseminated amongst the other forgeowrlds across the galaxy (which will take a long time, if ever). 

So i would say on the whole, rather than regressing or progression (you can point to a few examples on each side) the Imperium is technologically stagnant.

-also i regards to the power armour issue an above poster brought up, power armour can, and is still produced and manufactored. Both by the Mechanicus and chapters themselves. Termiantor armour too is still produced though, very slowly.


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## nicegirl13 (Aug 18, 2011)

Okay thanks for correcting my missinformation


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

In the Dark Age of Technology humanities creativity and technological drive ran rampant. This lead to the creation of numerous works of scientific wonder. However it also led (unless I'm confusing dates again) to the creation of the Iron Men who would eventually rebel against humanity. Basically machines would take over large parts of the Imperium and begin to run them themselves, enslaving humanity to their cause. This is one of the primary reasons why robots/computers are considered heresy in 40k. The Dark Age of Technology was then followed by the Age of Strife in which humanities empire crumbled and seperated. Some worlds continued to advance technologically while others regressed back to the stone age. Most importantly of all however is that the vast majority of records and texts from the Dark Age of Tech were lost in this time period. This means that while humanity still had awesome tech in lots of places they forgot how it worked. Over time they ritualized the process of using these machines and kept on forgetting more and more. The Adeptus Mechanicus was born in this time period in an attempt to maintain technical knowledge but they too became invested more in the rituals than the knowing. 

I realize this isn't really answering your question but I agree with everybody else has said and just thought you could use some more background.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Basically machines would take over large parts of the Imperium and begin to run them themselves, enslaving humanity to their cause.


Thats generally the case (although there was no Imperium during that age).



MEQinc said:


> The Adeptus Mechanicus was born in this time period in an attempt to maintain technical knowledge but they too became invested more in the rituals than the knowing.


The foundations of the Mechanicum were laid by the Emperor many thousands of years prior to even the beginning of the Age of Technology. Mars had always been a hub of technological innovation and no doubt played a significant role in the Age of Technology. Its unclear just how far back worship of the Omnissiah and Machine God goes, but it is certainly pre-Imperial (as noted by most of the Priesthood of Mars recognising the Emperor as the Omnissiah upon forging the alliance between Mars and Terra post-Unification). If the account of the Emperor's scheming (in regards to imprisoning the Dragon on Mars) is true, then the worship of the Machine God may have its foundations in the first colonisation of Mars (with the intended result being Mars establishing itself as a centre of technological innovation and as the principle world in the Martian Empire).


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## palefire (Jul 30, 2011)

Thanks for the replies. It's food for thought.


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## Harriticus (Nov 10, 2010)

-Imperium: Slowly Regressing
-Chaos: Mixed bag. Heretic/CSM forces use what they plunder from the Imperium so they're also regressing, though the Dark Mechanicus on Xana II in the EoT can actually innovate and produce frightening new weapons like Planet Killer
-Tau: Progressing
-Eldar: Same as it was pre-Fall
-Orks: Same as its always been
-Necrons: Same as its always been
-Tyranids: Biological technology that is constantly adapting and evolving


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

That's not quite true Harriticus. 

Ive already given reasons as to why in my view the Imperums stagnating rather than regressing in my above posts so i'll address your other points. 

The Eldar have in fact lost some of their technology and are not at their pre fall levels. Pre fall they had advanced automated constructs to do everything from maintenance to waging their wars. They could snuff out stars and re arrange planets. They could create pocket dimensions and all sorts of other nigh magical technology. The current Eldar can no longer do these things. 

The orks i would argue are always innovating and tinkering. But they're mimics who copy other races technology. Gargants for example came about after some ork meks saw Titans for the first time. The same with their tellyporta technology. The orks have an extremely high potential and aptitude for new technology its just rather than innovating on their own they copy off and 'improve' on others. 


The rest of what you said was right, i just thought i'd ad my view on the others.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

well the Orks are latent psykers and as such if they put together crap and have an idea of what it will do, it will do it.
Regarding the empirium, my impression is mixed I recently read titanicus and the chapter's due and from that I get the impression that the admech is pretty flexible and advanced. I have the impression the tech level of the ad mech is at least the same as that of the Tau, but the general equipment is less advanced, but for me it makes sense it is not efficient to equip every foot soldier with a life expectancy of 5 minutes with the most expensive guns containing the most rare materials and tech,
In the news paper it said that in Cern they might have found proof that exceeding light speed might be feasible (they have to check it), that would mean the empirium no longer needs the warp nor the astronomican, 
logistics problems are over, the empirium is saved, the dark days are over


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

Stagnation or regression, interesting argument. 

No mention of STC ( Standard Template Constructs), odd.

Nearly everything made in the Imperium of Man is made from these templates, during the Age of Strife many STCs were lost and one of the Adeptus Mechanicus main missions in life is to find and control these plans. (AM Exploritor teams).

This is also a Fluff device to explain new Vehicle Release for Imperial Armies.
The first use being the 'Re-discovery' of the Space Marine Razorback STC way back in 2nd Edition. (White Dwarf)

*Regression.*
Many References to the loss of ability to maintain Technologies can be found in the fluff for Guard Vehicles, one that I remember is the IG Thunderer siege tank being a retro fit of Laser Destroyer hulls because the complicated Destroyer guns being unable to be replaced once knackered.( Imperial Armour I).

*Stagnation.*
The Imperium in general and the Adeptus Mechanicus in particular are afraid of new Tech, The Dark Age of Technology being the cause of this. Many Dark Age STCs are in existence but are considered Heretical and locked away.

The Adeptus Mechanicus approach to tech is a superstitious worship of the Machine Spirit using Prayer as much as engineering.

Comparisons were made in the fluff for Squats ( I Know it's a rude word) between the two different approaches to Tech, Squats scorning the Imperiums attitude and being more progressive and experimental using sound Sceintific and Engineering theory. (Most of these in the old Epic rules) .

*Advancement. *
Some will cite things such as the Land Raider Crusader but this is not real advancement of technology rather adaption.
The Adeptus Mechanicus had to retro approve the STC for this after the Black Templars Tech Marines made them up to fill a battlefield role before they were accepted widely by other SM Chapters.

In most cases these replace weapons with lower tech ones so although are possibly an advancement in tactical use they are not a Technological avancement.

Personally I'm of the regression mind set.
Once they stop losing tech it will be stagnation, but this is always mediated by rediscovered STCs being released for use by the Adeptus Mechanicus.


Other races of course are a different kettle o fish.


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## The Gunslinger (Apr 4, 2011)

you could look at it and think are they even worried about it? I mean they can build huge suits of armour that you can wade through most small arms fire, they can create super human soldiers, they have ships that can tear through the dimensions of space and can level whole cities if not planets in hours. Id say they are doing fine with their tech, yea sure having floating tanks and laser guns would be cool but for an empire like the imperium, what is easier to make and maintain in huge numbers, basic rhinos and leman russ' or grav tanks?


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## Lord Solar Macharius (Oct 5, 2010)

By the 51st millennium, the standard issue Imperial Guard arms will be the Crossbow while only Astartes officers and Custodes will have the privilege of having gunpowder weapons.


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## Questioner (May 13, 2011)

I doubt it... Unless the Dragon awakes and destroys Mars.


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## General-jwj (Sep 22, 2011)

Solar Lord Macharius said:


> By the 51st millennium, the standard issue Imperial Guard arms will be the Crossbow while only Astartes officers and Custodes will have the privilege of having gunpowder weapons.


Funny, that kinda reminds me of how things where on Caliban before the Crusade reached them.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

The idea of lost technology is stupid.


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## OIIIIIIO (Dec 16, 2009)

CJay said:


> The idea of lost technology is stupid.


Not sure how technology being lost is stupid ... it has happened in our own time. I can remember a time not so many years ago when people would bring up "Damascus Steel" and wonder at how these ancient people could make a type of steel that we in todays day and age could NOT reproduce it. Some years back, I think it was like 5 or 6 years ago they finally figured out how to reproduce it and people have been trying to do it for over 200 years. That is a prime example of technology being lost and rediscovered.


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## General-jwj (Sep 22, 2011)

Also, losing technology is pretty easy when a mysterious sect-like organisation has the monopoly on the conservation of all information pertaining to the subject and that it's so far gone they actually destroy some information because it's too disturbing or reveals the gaping holes in their knowledge.

And what is lost stays lost most of the time seeing as they're not big on the whole free thought thing.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Free will is Heresy. 

Stagnation is the theme of the Imperium. They do not WANT progress, they want to maintain the status quo. In trying to hold onto what they have, they are losing it piece by piece. Thus, regression. 

There are many technologies which can no longer be replicated.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Tau is progressing, Eldar is regressing, Imperium is regressing, Orks are progressing (only slightly mind you)


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

Damascus steel is a poor example. There was no need for it in our society. Now that there is a demand for it, for aesthetic reasons only, we have reproduced it.

I would say that old techniques are commonly lost when new and better techniques are discovered. For instance, how many people today know how to make a good batch of pig iron? Not many, since our mechanized factories produce tons of high carbon steel in a single day. Is pig iron a lost technology? hardly.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

The Imperium regressing in technology is all a matter of where you're looking. For example in Warriors of Ultramar a magos develops a new, very advanced technology to combat the Tyranids.

Advances are made in 40k and some of them, like what I mentioned above, are very advanced. Things just happen very slowly.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

If there is regression going on, I think it's part and parcel of the concept of technological monopoly imposed on the Imperium by the Mechanicus, coupled with the challenges involved in keeping a galaxy-wide empire in sync with all its parts.

Sometimes it takes a month to travel between certain planets. Sometimes it takes a year--or a decade. Sometimes the bureaucracy of the Administratum or the Mechanicus is so bogged down that a century might pass before an emergency is successfully reported to the appropriate authorities.

So, at some point, Forge World Lucius had some sort of emergency that led to their losing the ability to manufacture Baneblade super-heavy tanks. Was that technology lost to the Imperium as a whole? No. Other Forge Worlds continue to manufacture them. In that space of the time, there had to be some reason why other Forge Worlds did not get Lucius that data. According to "Imperial Armour", that's because the Adeptus Mechanicus are very picky about what Forge Worlds built what. Probably out of a desire to ensure that high-value knowledge is not gained by enemy forces, only a few Forge Worlds (likely the most well-defended ones) can build Baneblades.

In the interim, though, a Magos developed the Macharius-class Super Heavy. I imagine this was done because Lucius had obligations to produce X amounts of equipment for Imperial Guard units fighting wars.

The development and approval process of the Macharius took at least 200 years (per the same book). Why did it take 200 years? Who knows. It's not stated. The Mechanicus can be so plotting and cold-hearted that they might have stalled the permission just to see if the Macharius (which was being vetted at the same time) would serve as a cheaper, quicker-to-build alternative. Or it might have been rival Mechanicus factions sabotaging each others' efforts for two centuries (one for the Baneblade, the other for the Macharius). Or the wait (for granting the Baneblade rights) might have been a form of punishment (for losing the knowledge to begin with).

At any rate, by that time, Lucius had received permission to manufacture the Baneblade once more (meaning, the requisite data was sent to them). The Macharius was still seen as a worthy product, though, especially as demand for the standard Baneblade outstripped Lucius' supply of those super-heavies. It ended up serving as a viable alternative.

So, was there regression here? Temporarily, and even then it was more of a lateral move, or, if you will, a temporary setback, rather than a true regression. Are there cases of full-on regression? Yeah... but I would argue that, when the novels state...

_"Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned..."_

... that they're referring to things lost and forgotten before the Imperium came about.

Or, when Battlefleet Gothic states that ...

_"The superior technologies used to construct the multiple lance turrets on the Apocalypse have now all but been forgotten and so the small number of examples of this ship can never be replaced."_

... I think this is basically along the lines of what the fluff states about Baneblades. Meaning, if there are only X number of Forgeworlds trusted with manufacturing Baneblades, than the number of Forgeworlds/dockyards worthy of building an Imperial Battleship had to be minute indeed. Of those, I doubt any one makes more than one class of Battleship, and it would probably be a pretty monumental effort to convert dockyards to produce technologically more complex, superior warships and lance arrays. In this case, I think what we're really talking about is a cost vs. benefit issue.

Are there cases where knowledge is lost... as in, jet-bikes? Sure--even if I'm pretty that, should the Master of the Ravenwing be cool enough to turn in his jetbike, the Mechanicus could figure it out inside a few centuries.

More often than not, though, I'd argue that the complexity of the Imperium, which magnifies logistical problems exponentially; the veneration of technology, which lengthens the process of vetting and approving new products and processes; and the state of constant war, which shifts the priority to production of proven, dependable products versus research of new, superior things; are the real reasons you're seeing stagnation (as opposed to actual regression).

Cheers,
P.


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