# Guilliman Alive? 40k End of Times?



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Just was looking through Facebook, and heard Graham McNeill is going to the US. Also a little a bit about his newer projects. One being a potential End of Times for 40k. Something to do with the failure of the Golden Throne which was something in 6th and 7th edition. Apparently, McNeill has plans with Gillian being a big factor. 

Not sure what to think about the 40k End of Times. I feel that after seeing a bit with what happened in Fantasy, I just don't think there's a way Chaos doesn't win. Especially if Khorne pops up and starts slicing and dicing. What a cheater. 

Seems like old news though. So forgive me if you go, no shit. 

http://www.spikeybitsblog.com/2014/12/end-times-40k-confirmed-the-primarchs-return.html


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

if there is a 40K end times its gonna go between Chaos, the Orks and Tyranids. I don't think that its a clear cut case that Chaos would win.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Haskanael said:


> if there is a 40K end times its gonna go between Chaos, the Orks and Tyranids. I don't think that its a clear cut case that Chaos would win.


I kind of disagree. Unless the Necrons have some tricks up their sleeve. There are infinite amount of daemons and power from the Chaos Gods. And The Fantasy End of Times has had the chaos gods literally intervene. Khorne literally used his axe!!!

The End of Times definitely puts a different perspective of the Chaos Gods in my mind. The original thought about Chaos is that they care little for the affairs of mortals. However, I fee like that coming from Chaos Codexes was a way to stir fans into one direction of thinking. Almost a narrative created by the Chaos Gods to basically describe themselves through the codexes. It seems quite evident that they do indeed care A LOT about the mortal realm. 

I'm also tired of this autocorrect. All my Khornes are being turned into thrones. Its bullshit.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> I kind of disagree. Unless the Necrons have some tricks up their sleeve. There are infinite amount of daemons and power from the Chaos Gods. And The Fantasy End of Times has had the chaos gods literally intervene. Khorne literally used his axe!!!
> 
> The End of Times definitely puts a different perspective of the Chaos Gods in my mind. The original thought about Chaos is that they care little for the affairs of mortals. However, I fee like that coming from Chaos Codexes was a way to stir fans into one direction of thinking. Almost a narrative created by the Chaos Gods to basically describe themselves through the codexes. It seems quite evident that they do indeed care A LOT about the mortal realm.
> 
> I'm also tired of this autocorrect. All my Khornes are being turned into thrones. Its bullshit.


you are right about the unlimited supply of Daemons, however for every ork that dies there will be a dozen more. the more orks die the more spores spread across planets. basicly there is a near limitless supply of orks as well.

and there is no indication that there is a limit to the amount of armies and creatures the Tyranids can bring forth from beyond known space.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

There's been a lot of stuff thrown out in recent years regarding the 40k Endtimes. I don't think it'll be a straightforward win for Chaos. The missing primarchs returning could swing it for the Imperium, the Laughing God might just pull off whatever it is he's planning, all the remaining tomb worlds might awaken together, Ghazkull and his new Galactic wide teleporter might raise the biggest Waaagh ever seen, and the Emperor alone knows how many hive fleets are closing in on the galaxy.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Whatever the Nids are running from will appear and fuck shit up.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

Khorne will cut Tzeentchs head off and laugh "you never saw that coming". Nurgle will discover breath mints and soap and be a hit with the ladies and slaanesh will join the priesthood and the galaxy all lives happy ever after


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## Matcap (Aug 23, 2012)

hmn on mcNeils own blog he talks about the move to LA to work for a game company and toning down (but not quitting) on his work for the Black Library. So not sure how much we should expect from this.

http://graham-mcneill.com/#!/la-times/


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Tyranids and CHaos are the most pressing threats to the galaxy at large right now. 

I never once bought intothe possibility that orks could be a contender, and the necrons are no longer on the galactic threat scale either. I don't doubt both these races will play an important role, but they won't be fighting alone like the two big bads will.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Vaz said:


> Whatever the Nids are running from will appear and fuck shit up.


Is there a source that says they're running from something? I was under the impression there was almost no background to their entrance into the 40k galaxy.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Oldman78 said:


> Khorne will cut Tzeentchs head off and laugh "you never saw that coming". Nurgle will discover breath mints and soap and be a hit with the ladies and slaanesh will join the priesthood and the galaxy all lives happy ever after


Seems legit......


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

The problem with orks I feel is that for the most part they have a very weak will. Orks in my mind could be swayed to chaos. 

Wasn't it hinted in _Storm of Iron_ that one of their ships was basically a Tyranid vessel infected with the virus?

Those are two forces that could give Chaos a good fight in my eyes. However, I feel that there could be a concern if Chaos infects there forces.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

I still think it'd be a chuckle if Grandfather infected a hive fleet...... :crazy:


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Nids are vulnerable to physical corruption, but all the emotional aspects that affect beings like humans simply don't exist in tyranid minds, so that's as far as it would get. 

Nids with Nurgle's Rot has been done before I believe. Generally they either adapt and make use of it to their advantage, or they exterminate those of their own carrying the taint.


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

Well each has its own strengths and weaknesses

The Imperial weakness is despite owning a lot of the galaxy they are rather slow to act and become obsessed with having to defend the core and other things can fend for themselves. Also in a way they could be seen to lack stable numbers. Many of the worlds would happily go renegade if it meant they got a better deal than they currently do and had no ramifications of Imperial counter attack.

Orks as said above have huge numbers, but only where they go, and if they are planning a space hopping adventure, the numbers become limited as they will be leaving lots of spore children behind everywhere, but need to have moved on before they could grow. Equally you have giant space missiles that just wipe out planets with virus bombs and such and that puts an end to them if the Imperials or Chaos think they are going down then they will happily do that.

Necrons have the unknown number question over there head that we have no idea how many there are. But also we don't know how sane they are or if they will actually work together to kill everyone else before turning against each other. The bonus is that they don't have a warp signature so daemons have a hard time feeding against them.

Chaos have the whole wax and wane thing going that every time they get bigger they kinda fall in to old habits and screw each other over. The other major thing with them is they need physical beings to power them and feed them raw emotions. This isn't going to happen if Necrons who as said before don't have warp signatures, or Tyranids are running the galaxy, cos neither feed the Chaos Gods anything. So the Daemon part of Chaos suddenly falls away as does the power of the Warp and the Eye shrinks. The do however have a bit of an answer to Orks, Nids, Necrons and many other races, that they can literally blow up planets from space. This stops Orks from sporing, Nids from gathering raw materials, Necrons from waking up...

Eldar & Dark Eldar just don't have the numbers to survive from what has always been said. Though who knows if a load of Craftworlds still live beyond the galactic edge.

Tyranids are another unknown number, though in past lore it was hinted at that these were the Old Ones revenge plot to kinda eat the Galaxy and start over. This kinda makes a bit of sense in some ways as they absorb all rare material and I am sure the old ones could have some kind of command that is embedded in the hive mind to tell them to stop when they see Old Ones again, or the Old Ones might be the Greater Hive Mind. This would get their revenge on the Necrons and C'tan and everyone else. If however they are just a galaxy traversing mass of bugs then they might win the day by simply doing what no other race will do. Strip down everything in their path to make more of them.

Tau... yeah... not enough of them and right in the way of the Nids, though seem to have been semi ignored by them due to lack of warp presence not allowing Nids to lock on as easy unless they just happen to chance upon them...


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

Bring it on. I'd love the primarchs to return and the plot move forward, but it would seem a strange move to begin it before the HH series ends

As long as they don't start squatting a load of stuff. Kill special characters by all means, but ruining factions _in the game_ would blow (unless they squat eldar)


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Squire said:


> (unless they squat eldar)


:laugh: k:

Nothing would make me happier.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Some of the Primarchs would be hard to bring back alive. Ferus though is pretty dead. I'm trying to think what primarch isn't absolutely dead. I guess all could be alive. Though primarchs like Ferrus and Curze would be lame to bring back because they would ruin the purpose of their deaths.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> Some of the Primarchs would be hard to bring back alive. Ferus though is pretty dead. I'm trying to think what primarch isn't absolutely dead. I guess all could be alive. Though primarchs like Ferrus and Curze would be lame to bring back because they would ruin the purpose of their deaths.


ignoring the current state of the Horus Heresy. Leman Russ is in the eye of terror somewhere with the 13th company. the Khan chased some Dark Eldar into the webway. Vulcan according to 40K lore disappeared, the salamanders say he will return after they found all his hidden relics. corax disappeared into the eye of terror. the lion is having a very long beauty sleep in the Rock.

non of these are confirmed to be actualy dead in 40K. and thats a potential 5 loyalist primarchs that might return.


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## DaisyDuke (Aug 18, 2011)

Do the chaos prims not act anymore? Or did Angron spread the word when he got kicked off Armageddon.
Also don't know if lore has changed but the old school storm boys used to be in to a bit of khorne worship.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Vampires are traditionally hard to kill, and with how blood focused Sanginius is. Resasembling the legion might well be the psychic pulse to waken him again as the end times comes. IF you remember, he reacted strongly to the psychic feedback of loosing many of his sons on signus prime.

Also remember the upcomming Unforgiven, with Cypher surrendering to the Dark Angels. Something tells me it will lead into the return of the Lion in the future.

Id really be curious to see what happens, if you dip the skull of Ferrus Manus into a vat of liquid Necrodermis. Will be rise again like a malleable T1000ish creature?

And it should be interesting to see what Lorgar have been up to inside the temple where he have been hiding for 10.000 years.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Brother Lucian said:


> Also remember the upcomming Unforgiven, with Cypher surrendering to the Dark Angels.


Baking powder.....?


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Tawa said:


> Baking powder.....?


Huh?


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## the_barwn (Jul 23, 2011)

Brother Lucian said:


> Huh?


I think the correct response is 

Squeeze me?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Would it make sense for some of the traitor forces to side with the Imperium against Chaos...?


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

As far as I know there are maybe 7 living Imperial Primarchs
Russ is in the Eye.
Vulkan seems to be immortal, but on a search for maguffins.
Dorn had his hand chopped off, but that doesn't mean he is dead.
Gulliman is in stasis after Fulgrim stabbed him with the magic sword that almost killed Horus, though in the long long ago it was hinted that he has been infected by genestealer DNA during the Tyranid War on Macragge. Also he is credited with killing Alpharius, though it is unknown if it was Alpharius or Omegon.
Lion is sulking in a cave.
KHANNNN!!!! went off to kill Dark Eldar
Corax went to the Eye as well.

Sang and Ferrus are dead.

Chaos however have only definitely lost 1 and up to 3 (though technically they started with 10)
Horus is dead, though was cloned a lot it seems...
Fulgrim is a Daemonic Snakey person and means he tops the potential Primarch killing table with a score of at least 1 or maybe 2 with Gulliman coming close 2nd with 0 maybe 1, everyone else comes 3rd with 0. 
Magnus is endlessly doing things, normally involving trying to kill the space wolves by turning them all in to dogs and getting the Imperium to then wipe them out as they would be declared tainted. He is also a Daemon now.
Mortarion seems happy enough fighting Greyknights and everyone else he wants. Though mostly seems to use Typhus as his warrior of choice to infect everyone. He is also a Daemon now.
Lorgar is meditating in a room with a "Do not disturb" sign on the door, but is also a Daemon.
Angron is a Daemon, and tends to be found whooping a lot of arse, unless he is banished, what really doesn't seem to last that long for the effort it seems to take to do it.

Curze is the odd one, as it is said he was killed by an assassin who was let in to kill him. But was never confirmed. It is reasonable enough to think that he is dead though, unless he was trying to fake his own death or something odd so he wouldn't be hunted anymore and could pretend to be someone else and continue his job of slaying villians.

Alpharius is supposedly dead by Gullimans hand. Though it is unsure if it was Alpharius or Omegon that died.


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

It's so unsatisfying the way the primarchs are just brushed under the carpet :laugh:

It does suggest GW were keeping them back to potentially move the plot along, but it could probably have been pulled off a bit more elegantly. A major campaign in which the primarchs were lured to a single system and then the system swallowed up by the warp perhaps, which could have been a reason for ridding the galaxy of four or five at once while allowing the chance for them to come back later.

OTOH the backstory for the twenty legions and primarchs was pretty good considering until the HH series of books it didn't need to be explored. It would have been easy to just write any old crap to serve as the backstory for the 40k universe, but they happened to do a great job of it in my opinion. The only weak link for me is the Salamanders. Maybe I don't understand them, but they seem like the only legion without a valid reason for existing. What's special about them? What's their niche? Still, one weak legion out of eighteen is good going


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## el_machinae (Nov 17, 2014)

Well, the waking of primarchs wouldn't cause an endgame. They're not awesome enough to do more than give the Imperium a bit of a power bump. They all mostly already did their thang after the Emperor died, and it wasn't enough.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

mayegelt said:


> Russ is in the Eye.
> Vulkan seems to be immortal, but on a search for maguffins.
> Dorn had his hand chopped off, but that doesn't mean he is dead.
> Gulliman is in stasis after Fulgrim stabbed him with the magic sword that almost killed Horus, though in the long long ago it was hinted that he has been infected by genestealer DNA during the Tyranid War on Macragge. Also he is credited with killing Alpharius, though it is unknown if it was Alpharius or Omegon.
> ...


Vulkan is in a casket with a spear sticking out of him that may or may not have removed his Perpetual abilities - this casket is one of the nine treasures of Vulkan, and it might be that when Vulkan He'stan finds them all then Vulkan will wake up.

Didn't know about the Guilliman/Genestealer DNA, that sounds pretty curveball - do you have a source for that? I'd be interested to read it.

Lion is comatose in the Rock under very powerful psychic wards; the xenos/daemonic race guarding him will wake him up when they think it's the right time. Basically what you said.




mayegelt said:


> Horus is dead, though was cloned a lot it seems...
> Fulgrim is a Daemonic Snakey person and means he tops the potential Primarch killing table with a score of at least 1 or maybe 2 with Gulliman coming close 2nd with 0 maybe 1, everyone else comes 3rd with 0.
> Magnus is endlessly doing things, normally involving trying to kill the space wolves by turning them all in to dogs and getting the Imperium to then wipe them out as they would be declared tainted. He is also a Daemon now.
> Mortarion seems happy enough fighting Greyknights and everyone else he wants. Though mostly seems to use Typhus as his warrior of choice to infect everyone. He is also a Daemon now.
> ...


Horus' clones were all killed by Abaddon.

Pretty much bang on on the rest though - becoming Daemon Princes really limited what the traitor Primarchs could do as they require a very large amount of energy to coalesce in realspace, and the rest of the galaxy and the Webway is full of ways to kill Daemons.



mayegelt said:


> Curze is the odd one, as it is said he was killed by an assassin who was let in to kill him. But was never confirmed. It is reasonable enough to think that he is dead though, unless he was trying to fake his own death or something odd so he wouldn't be hunted anymore and could pretend to be someone else and continue his job of slaying villians.


Definitely confirmed - M'shen took off his head and Talos Valcoran chased her down for it, details in _Soul Hunter_.



mayegelt said:


> Alpharius is supposedly dead by Gullimans hand. Though it is unsure if it was Alpharius or Omegon that died.


In-universe, the Inquisitor who submitted this report was later found to be an Alpha Legion agent, so it might be a total fabrication. GW really can't write Alpha Legion without making them Mary Sues of the highest order, so I very much doubt Alpharius Omegon is dead.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

DaisyDuke said:


> Do the chaos prims not act anymore? Or did Angron spread the word when he got kicked off Armageddon.


Not so much - some of them view themselves as above mortal affairs (Lorgar, Fulgrim, maybe Perturabo although Perturabo has done some largely irrelevant things on largely irrelevant worlds); Angron manifested once to lead the Dominion of Fire in M38, but was as you say banished on Armageddon and hasn't manifested again since; Mortarion lead one foray out of the Eye but got banished by Draigo and hasn't done a lot else since.



DaisyDuke said:


> Also don't know if lore has changed but the old school storm boys used to be in to a bit of khorne worship.


I don't think Orks can really worship Chaos; mainly because the Orks are pretty much deaf to a lot of the things that Chaos could offer them. The only one they might worship is Khorne, but an Ork doesn't want to be just _given_ strength; they don't _need_ some divine being giving them power. Their biology and the Waaagh-Ork does it for them. Some Orks get tricked into it, the great dumb beasts, like Tuska the Daemon-Killa who's 'trapped' on a Daemon World fighting Khorne Daemons every day and waking up with his army resurrected and healed every morning, and Warboss Headwoppa who had a Big Choppa that happens to contain a Daemon of Khorne, but they don't tend to willingly worship any gods except Gork and Mork.


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

MidnightSun said:


> Didn't know about the Guilliman/Genestealer DNA, that sounds pretty curveball - do you have a source for that? I'd be interested to read it.


This is from the long long ago when genestealers and tyranids were getting there first major storys in what i think was late 80s or early 90s in White Dwarfs.
The basics that i remember talked about how pretty much the whole first legion where killed in the attack and during the massacre some of the army broke through in to the heart of the hq. On cleanup after the major fighting had stopped they were discovered and killed in side the walls. After that it was discovered that the stasis chamber had been "defiled" (though didn't go in to specifications of if it was clawed at or just psychically breached) but soon after that was when they noticed him twitching and stuff again.



MidnightSun said:


> Horus' clones were all killed by Abaddon.


So he says... Fabius might have made a few more since then. Though from the The Talon of Horus book he seemed to have made a few different primarchs.



MidnightSun said:


> Definitely confirmed - M'shen took off his head and Talos Valcoran chased her down for it, details in _Soul Hunter_.


I'm sure it was something weird like the feed on the kill shot cut out before it happened. Equally with Primarchs they do tend to survive pretty much everything.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Losing your head seems to be pretty final though. Re. Ferrus Manus.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

MidnightSun said:


> Vulkan is in a casket with a spear sticking out of him that may or may not have removed his Perpetual abilities - this casket is one of the nine treasures of Vulkan, and it might be that when Vulkan He'stan finds them all then Vulkan will wake up.


In the 30k timeline, yes, that's where he is currently. Regarding 40k though, he's not. Post Heresy he is one of the major opponents to the implementation of the Codex Astartes. He then goes off on a quest like Russ and Corax, announcing he'll be back at the End Times. This means at some stage soon in the Heresy series he's going to come around.



mayegelt said:


> but soon after that was when they noticed him twitching and stuff again.


There can be no twitching inside a stasis field. Any movement would take decades to complete and would not be perceptible outside the field. As for the genestealer DNA thing, never heard of that particular nugget. As far as I remember the nids never made it beyond the North or South Poles of Macragge, never mind got anywhere near the Fortress of Hera.



Vaz said:


> Losing your head seems to be pretty final though. Re. Ferrus Manus.


This is true. I think Talos mentions that he witnessed the act in the NL series, as does Sahaal in LotN IIRC. Curze is indisputably dead.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

mayegelt said:


> Well each has its own strengths and weaknesses
> 
> The Imperial weakness is despite owning a lot of the galaxy they are rather slow to act and become obsessed with having to defend the core and other things can fend for themselves. Also in a way they could be seen to lack stable numbers. Many of the worlds would happily go renegade if it meant they got a better deal than they currently do and had no ramifications of Imperial counter attack.
> 
> ...


I think it's ironic but for humanity to survive, Abaddon needs to succeed with his last crusade and then unite humanity under his and Chaos' rule


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> In the 30k timeline, yes, that's where he is currently. Regarding 40k though, he's not. Post Heresy he is one of the major opponents to the implementation of the Codex Astartes. He then goes off on a quest like Russ and Corax, announcing he'll be back at the End Times. This means at some stage soon in the Heresy series he's going to come around.


Ah, fair enough, didn't realise that. Given that _The Unbound Flame_ is one of the nine treasures being searched for in 40k, BL are going to have to come up with a very good explanation of what's inside the casket when Vulkan vacates it.



Khorne's Fist said:


> This is true. I think Talos mentions that he witnessed the act in the NL series, as does Sahaal in LotN IIRC. Curze is indisputably dead.


Yep - Talos is called _Soul Hunter_ because he hunted down M'shen after she killed Curze and took his head as a trophy. There's a passage from her perspective where she's running away from Talos and she's carrying Curze's head, which is a pretty strong indicator...



mayegelt said:


> This is from the long long ago when genestealers and tyranids were getting there first major storys in what i think was late 80s or early 90s in White Dwarfs.


Isn't the 80's when Tigurius was half-Eldar and not called Tigurius, and Space Marines were convicted criminals, and squigs were Tyranids that the Orks took as pets? Because perhaps unfortunately, that stuff is almost all retconned...


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Vaz said:


> Losing your head seems to be pretty final though. Re. Ferrus Manus.


The short story from death and defiance, and Talon of Horus both show primarchs can be cloned. Why on earth the Emperor didn't do this when he got the Primarchs back is beyond me. If Fabius can do it, surely the Emperor could have done it too. Cloned Angron without the nails, Mortarion without his asthma and Night Haunter without his madness. Once the clone was complete, assassinate the originals and hey presto. He could even have cloned the missing 2 and then subsequently possibly wouldn't have had to destroy the missing legions.

Another unintentional plot hole or maybe this will be dealt with in future stories

Since the Ferrus clone didn't have his metal arms it would be interesting to know if a cloned Sang would still have wings?


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

zerachiel76 said:


> The short story from death and defiance, and Talon of Horus both show primarchs can be cloned. Why on earth the Emperor didn't do this when he got the Primarchs back is beyond me. If Fabius can do it, surely the Emperor could have done it too. Cloned Angron without the nails, Mortarion without his asthma and Night Haunter without his madness. Once the clone was complete, assassinate the originals and hey presto. He could even have cloned the missing 2 and then subsequently possibly wouldn't have had to destroy the missing legions.


Like today, it seems that clones are inherently flawed. They might not have the same life span, powers, and intelligence. On top of that, it might take more time than he had to perfect the process. Remember, the Emperor only developed SMs after he lost the primarchs because to start making new primarchs would have taken waaaay to long for his needs. On top of that, the flaws in the primarchs you mention only come to light during the Great Crusade. Trying to clone new primarchs while waging a Galaxy spanning war, and expecting them to slip seamlessly into the roles of the originals, some of whom had been fighting alongside their sons for decades at this stage, is a big ask, even for the Emperor.



zerachiel76 said:


> Since the Ferrus clone didn't have his metal arms it would be interesting to know if a cloned Sang would still have wings?


Sang was "born" with wings because they were bred into him, whereas Ferrus Mannus acquired his metallic arms during his confrontation with the C'tan, so a clone of Sang should have wings, but a clone of FM shouldn't have the arms, in the same way it wouldn't have a scar or tattoo acquired by the original.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Sang was "born" with wings because they were bred into him


Really? I don't know why but I had it in my head they were manifested as a result of his travel through the warp to Baal when the Primarch's were stolen from their incubators.

...or something like that.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

ntaw said:


> Really? I don't know why but I had it in my head they were manifested as a result of his travel through the warp to Baal when the Primarch's were stolen from their incubators.
> 
> ...or something like that.


I took it like that for a long time as well, but I think it's in Deliverance Lost that we see the birthing pods from the Emperor's POV, and as he looks in the tanks there's mention of one with vestigial wings, or something along those lines. I'll look it up tomorrow.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

If Chaos won would humanity survive? I'm not so sure. I'm not even sure the Chaos Gods have really let their intentions really known to their champions. I feel by taking over Terra, there would be a big rip in the warp and the galaxy would drown with daemons.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> If Chaos won would humanity survive? I'm not so sure. I'm not even sure the Chaos Gods have really let their intentions really known to their champions. I feel by taking over Terra, there would be a big rip in the warp and the galaxy would drown with daemons.


Terra would fall, the Imperium would crumble. There is no reason to think that pockets of humanity couldn't survive despite this, as it has happened before during the Old Night. Granted Chaos is more prominent now than then, but it still wouldn't be humanity alone against them. 

I doubt the necrons would just roll over and give up, I'm sure the orks would have a blast and who knows if the tyranids would even really be slowed down significantly?


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

And remember much like the machines in the Matrix films... The Chaos Gods need people as food.

Also yes to the earlier post about my quote, a lot of stuff has been retconned, but as far as i know that one has just been ignored. I think the idea was to spice up the nee guys and of course give people some hope that daddy gulliman might come back. As for yhe twitching thing. It isn't spelled out but is implied that the stasis box is malfunctioning after the assault. Even in new lore they have got something about him seeming to heal while in there. Again this happened after the nids came. So even if they didn't get in the door if it had been retconned, it seems like something they did broke his magic coffin.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

I'm fairly sure it was never retconned. The battles for the two polar forts were huge set pieces in the story from the start, and I'm almost 100% sure that story has never been changed in any way. I'd be very interested in reading your source material for that, because in over 25 years of reading the fluff, I've never heard of that, or anything about the stasis field failing. 

As for him healing, I'd have called BS on it until the introduction of the Iron Heart or whatever it's called that the Iron Hands are using in the HH series to heal their captain. To me it seems to be the only reason to bring something like that into the story arc. Where else would a handy device that heals people while in stasis be used?


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Like today, it seems that clones are inherently flawed. They might not have the same life span, powers, and intelligence. On top of that, it might take more time than he had to perfect the process. Remember, the Emperor only developed SMs after he lost the primarchs because to start making new primarchs would have taken waaaay to long for his needs. On top of that, the flaws in the primarchs you mention only come to light during the Great Crusade. Trying to clone new primarchs while waging a Galaxy spanning war, and expecting them to slip seamlessly into the roles of the originals, some of whom had been fighting alongside their sons for decades at this stage, is a big ask, even for the Emperor.


Fair point, but surely the Emperor should have considered it after Istvaan when he's just lost 3 loyal legions and he wasn't sure about the I or V legions loyalty. The Imperium was in such a bad situation that logically he should have considered cloning Ferrus, Vulkan and Corax (before he knew Corax survived). He may have considered multiple clones to defend the Imperial palace. After all even cloned Primarchs were superior to any Space Marine or Custodes.



Khorne's Fist said:


> Sang was "born" with wings because they were bred into him, whereas Ferrus Mannus acquired his metallic arms during his confrontation with the C'tan, so a clone of Sang should have wings, but a clone of FM shouldn't have the arms, in the same way it wouldn't have a scar or tattoo acquired by the original.


Ahh, thanks for the reminder about Sang's wings being bred into him. I thought they were a mutation caused be exposure to the warp.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Well the Emperor pretty much gave the remains of the primarch project to Corax so that he could rebuild his legion.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

zerachiel76 said:


> but surely the Emperor should have considered it after Istvaan when he's just lost 3 loyal legions and he wasn't sure about the I or V legions loyalty. The Imperium was in such a bad situation that logically he should have considered cloning Ferrus, Vulkan and Corax (before he knew Corax survived). He may have considered multiple clones to defend the Imperial palace. After all even cloned Primarchs were superior to any Space Marine or Custodes.


By the time Istvaan happens he has his hands full with the warp breach in the Imperial Webway caused by Magnus, containing the hordes of demons trying to break through. He can barely leave the Golden Throne even to take on Horus at the very end, never mind a massive undertaking like a primarch cloning project.

On top of that, growing clones of beings as complex as primarchs would not be a quick process. The primarch process itself took decades to perfect. Getting clones out in time for the siege of the palace, only 7 years later, would again be a tall order.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> By the time Istvaan happens he has his hands full with the warp breach in the Imperial Webway caused by Magnus, containing the hordes of demons trying to break through. He can barely leave the Golden Throne even to take on Horus at the very end, never mind a massive undertaking like a primarch cloning project.
> 
> On top of that, growing clones of beings as complex as primarchs would not be a quick process. The primarch process itself took decades to perfect. Getting clones out in time for the siege of the palace, only 7 years later, would again be a tall order.


By this time wasn't Dorn in command? I thought I heard or read somewhere that the loyal legions were commanded by Dorn. I wonder how that worked.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> By this time wasn't Dorn in command? I thought I heard or read somewhere that the loyal legions were commanded by Dorn. I wonder how that worked.


Dorn and Malcador are kinda sharing the load. In one of the shorts Dorn is pretty pissed because he thinks the Emperor isn't that interested in the rebellion, but he hasn't a clue what's going on in the bowels of the palace, whereas Malcador does, and is willing to make hard decisions to ease the burden on the Emperor.


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

Khorne's Fist said:


> I'm fairly sure it was never retconned. The battles for the two polar forts were huge set pieces in the story from the start, and I'm almost 100% sure that story has never been changed in any way. I'd be very interested in reading your source material for that, because in over 25 years of reading the fluff, I've never heard of that, or anything about the stasis field failing.
> 
> As for him healing, I'd have called BS on it until the introduction of the Iron Heart or whatever it's called that the Iron Hands are using in the HH series to heal their captain. To me it seems to be the only reason to bring something like that into the story arc. Where else would a handy device that heals people while in stasis be used?


Currently, his mortal body remains in stasis, on the Shrine of Guilliman deep within the Temple of Correction, one of the holiest places in the entire Imperium. Some pilgrims claim that the Primarch's wounds are slowly recovering, a feat credited to the power of the Emperor. Others deny the phenomenon, and point out the sheer impossibility of change within the stasis field. Yet enough believe the stories to come and witness for themselves the miracle of the Primarch.

Seems like with a quick search that comes from the novel "Nightbringer". Though i remember it from 2nd edition in rulebooks and white dwarves i believe.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

@mayegelt the source is the 2nd edition Ultramarines codex. Just checked. It's longer than what you quoted. 

It's in the highlight-box on page 15.

Though it says nothing about the Tyranids and Guilliman's throne room.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

No, I'm talking about the nids making it all the way to the temple of Hera and corrupting his corpse. 

As for that quote, it being from Ventris's POV, I think it then goes on to say how ridiculous the idea of Girlyman healing is. Which is interesting that a UM captain doesn't even believe it.


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

As said before the Tyranids part as far as I remember came in the couple of months of the Tyranids releases as story in White Dwarf. Back in the days when WD wasn't just a model show case with maybe a couple of rules and new releases. But actually had 3-4 page story bits and 1-3 full battle reports as well.
The quote I just said I quickly rediscovered by trying to just get the info quickly online and seeing that quoted on Lexicum (I think) being sourced from the Nightbringer novel.

The stuff like that is endlessly retconned or claimed that 2 conflicting sources are telling their side of the same story.
So for instance the Blackstone Fortress in Gothic are clearly by the looks of them Necron design, BUT are said to be the Swords of Khaine. 
It is also said in the old Necron stuff that The Deceiver tricked Nightbringer in to killing Khaine. Though Eldar has it as Slaanesh being tricked in to fighting Khaine while the Laughning God hid.
The Avatar is all to similar to a "Shard of the C'tan" for them not to be the same things.
That would mean the Eldar and Necrontyr might have actually been the same race.

There are many other snippets of info dating back a fair old distance in 40K lore. But how many of them are there to throw you off the trial and were meant to be peoples observations that have led them to think 2+2=7. And how many are meant to be direct information of 'THIS HAPPENED!' as true fact.
Most of the history / lore we have tends to be with Imperial Bias, or at least tend to come from Imperial point of view of what went on. This includes the thing above about Deceiver and Nightbringer was supposed to be from a tablet that was found by Imperial Scholars.
A couple of issues later in WD it is roughly mentioned that he World Dragon of Mars is a C'tan, and that is why Pariahs exist (they were part Necron machine and part human and had that same soulless thing that Culexus have). This was then reconned kinda to say that Necrons convert Culexus in to Pariahs.
Again go back a long way in the writings of GW and there is reference to the Machine God of Mars being partially responsible for the creation of the Golden Throne. Again if this was a C'tan being the Machine God then it might make a little bit of sense, as he had lost his Necron army having been imprisoned in a world, he is creating a sentient but easily manipulated race do his bidding in the form of humanity. What also lends to this theory is that the C'tan seem to be fighting another war against the warp and not doing so well. If the chair is what is keeping the warp as by with an enslaved psyker (and being fed loads of them every day) then the C'tan would be loving the result, especially as they weren't keen on Psykers.

Of course though, there are many throw away stories that seem to pop up and almost as quick as they did they are forgotten or never spoken of again... like Squats, Zoats, Ambulls and a 5th Chaos God and many other races that seem to have disappeared or 'never existed'.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

mayegelt said:


> So for instance the Blackstone Fortress in Gothic are clearly by the looks of them Necron design, BUT are said to be the Swords of Khaine.


I'm pretty sure the Blackstone Fortresses have always been Eldar in origin or in use, and given that they work using Warp technology I'm sure they're not Necron in origin no matter what the models look like.



mayegelt said:


> It is also said in the old Necron stuff that The Deceiver tricked Nightbringer in to killing Khaine. Though Eldar has it as Slaanesh being tricked in to fighting Khaine while the Laughning God hid.


The Deceiver tricked the Nightbringer into _fighting_ Khaine. Slaanesh shattered Khaine in all the fluff since forever, I'm pretty sure.



mayegelt said:


> The Avatar is all to similar to a "Shard of the C'tan" for them not to be the same things.


The Avatar being made of simple iron would mean a C'tan shard couldn't/wouldn't possess an Avatar's body without it breaking/escaping/changing form, and given that Greater Daemons can possess an Avatar but there's no record of them being able to touch C'tan shards, this is highly unlikely. It'd help if we had more information on what a C'tan shard outside of its' Necrodermis shell was like other than 'a being of pure energy'.



mayegelt said:


> That would mean the Eldar and Necrontyr might have actually been the same race.


Other than the Necrontyr living incredibly short lifespans (I think they lived to 45 if they were lucky? Sounds familiar) and being incredibly jealous of the Old Ones, who predate the Eldar.

There is a lot of Necron fluff that's been retconned, they kind of had to do that to make the new C'tan/Necron relationship work (that said, the Noctis Labyrinth on Mars containing the Void Dragon who was trapped there by the Emperor is still very much in the fluff). I don't Necrons ever converted Culexus Assassins to become Pariahs - there'd be far too few of them given how rare Culexus Assassins are. Originally (in what has almost certainly been retconned), the Necrons were responsible for human Blanks - some of which were picked up and trained as Culexus Assassins - as a long-term plan to make humanity compatible for the Pariah-fication process that would create a perfect new race. At least, that's as far as I understood it.


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

MidnightSun said:


> The Deceiver tricked the Nightbringer into _fighting_ Khaine. Slaanesh shattered Khaine in all the fluff since forever, I'm pretty sure.


In that story or at least from when i remember reading it first. Nightbringer ends up defeating and shattering Khaine in to shards. This happened because he used the sword that was the 100th blade that vaul made (the cheep copy) (oh and vaul was hinted to be the same as the machine god back then and the anvil he was chained to by Khaine would be Mars the forge world... and that makes the world dragon / machine god also Vaul.)



MidnightSun said:


> The Avatar being made of simple iron would mean a C'tan shard couldn't/wouldn't possess an Avatar's body without it breaking/escaping/changing form, and given that Greater Daemons can possess an Avatar but there's no record of them being able to touch C'tan shards, this is highly unlikely. It'd help if we had more information on what a C'tan shard outside of its' Necrodermis shell was like other than 'a being of pure energy'.


The body of the Avatar would be a bit of a wierd one. It is claimed to be molten iron. But surely the molten iron would melt away after a while. I am not saying it is the same Necrodermis that the necron have built for there c'tan. Remember that it is the machine necrons that imprisoned them. So it is posible that the Eldar just have a different shell to house the C'tan.
It also may be that the C'tan that is the Avatar is not enslaved in the way the Necrons do. If the Eldar war of the gods happened to be a C'tan civil war. Maybe the Necrons ones were 'evil and feared' while the Eldar ones were 'good and revered'
Deceiver / Laughing God playing both sides of tge war and turning them all against each other doesn't sit beyond the realm of reason.



MidnightSun said:


> Other than the Necrontyr living incredibly short lifespans (I think they lived to 45 if they were lucky? Sounds familiar) and being incredibly jealous of the Old Ones, who predate the Eldar.


The short lifespans was caused by solar radiation from what i remember. The Old Ones were also said to have made the Eldar and Krork and various other races to help them win. It may be possible that if the Eldar and Necron have shared ancestry. It could be that Old Ones helped a section of the population by changing them or maybe just moving them to worlds that would not have the radiation that killed them (like craftworlds). Or maybe the necrontyr didn't live long lives at the time in the same way as humans didn't only 200 years ago we never would have expected to live passed 70. TBH I guess if you even take it from modern standpoint. In the developed world the average is about 85 now i think, while in poorer nations (excluding war and death by getting hit by busses and stuff like that) people on average like to 50-60. Given that the Eldar have been around a hell of a long time, medical science may give them practical imortallity.



MidnightSun said:


> There is a lot of Necron fluff that's been retconned, they kind of had to do that to make the new C'tan/Necron relationship work (that said, the Noctis Labyrinth on Mars containing the Void Dragon who was trapped there by the Emperor is still very much in the fluff). I don't Necrons ever converted Culexus Assassins to become Pariahs - there'd be far too few of them given how rare Culexus Assassins are. Originally (in what has almost certainly been retconned), the Necrons were responsible for human Blanks - some of which were picked up and trained as Culexus Assassins - as a long-term plan to make humanity compatible for the Pariah-fication process that would create a perfect new race. At least, that's as far as I understood it.


As said it seems wierd and that is why it was likely changed. As for World Dragon of Mars. He predates the Emperor by some time.
"Last of all, there is the Machine God of the Adeptus Mechanicus themselves. In Imperial thelogy the holy spirit of the Omnissiah worshipped by the tech-priests of Mars is a facet of the Immortal God-Emperor of Mankind - their dogma is categoric on this matter as it is filled with praise for the holy nature of the machine. However, the most ancient and zealously guarded records of their Order tell of a time before the coming of the Emperor when a far older power was paid homage on Mars. They make veiled reference to unspeakable knowledge won in the Golden Age of Technology, and how it brought about Mankind's eventual downfall in the Age of Strife. That such a abject heresy can exist at the very heart of the Imperium is dreadful enough, but the implications if it should ever be proved true are unimaginable."


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

mayegelt said:


> In that story or at least from when i remember reading it first. Nightbringer ends up defeating and shattering Khaine in to shards. This happened because he used the sword that was the 100th blade that vaul made (the cheep copy) (oh and vaul was hinted to be the same as the machine god back then and the anvil he was chained to by Khaine would be Mars the forge world... and that makes the world dragon / machine god also Vaul.)


Oh, okay, that sounds _well_ before my time. More got retconned than I knew about then.



mayegelt said:


> The body of the Avatar would be a bit of a wierd one. It is claimed to be molten iron. But surely the molten iron would melt away after a while. I am not saying it is the same Necrodermis that the necron have built for there c'tan. Remember that it is the machine necrons that imprisoned them. So it is posible that the Eldar just have a different shell to house the C'tan.
> It also may be that the C'tan that is the Avatar is not enslaved in the way the Necrons do. If the Eldar war of the gods happened to be a C'tan civil war. Maybe the Necrons ones were 'evil and feared' while the Eldar ones were 'good and revered'
> Deceiver / Laughing God playing both sides of tge war and turning them all against each other doesn't sit beyond the realm of reason.


Frankly, the nature of C'tan is too vague for me to really argue over this but I suppose there is a logic in that daemons can be trapped in Tesseract Labyrinths and C'tan can be trapped in Tesseract Labyrinths, therefore C'tan free of their necrodermis shells have the physical properties of daemons, but again; I don't really have the background knowledge of what the C'tan or indeed the Avatar actually _are_.



mayegelt said:


> The short lifespans was caused by solar radiation from what i remember. The Old Ones were also said to have made the Eldar and Krork and various other races to help them win. It may be possible that if the Eldar and Necron have shared ancestry. It could be that Old Ones helped a section of the population by changing them or maybe just moving them to worlds that would not have the radiation that killed them (like craftworlds). Or maybe the necrontyr didn't live long lives at the time in the same way as humans didn't only 200 years ago we never would have expected to live passed 70. TBH I guess if you even take it from modern standpoint. In the developed world the average is about 85 now i think, while in poorer nations (excluding war and death by getting hit by busses and stuff like that) people on average like to 50-60. Given that the Eldar have been around a hell of a long time, medical science may give them practical imortallity.


The Eldar live natural lives of thousands of years - Vect has been alive since the Fall, and I don't think time distortion is _that_ bad in the webway/realspace (as opposed to the Warp/realspace). There'd have to be pretty extreme radiation to lower your lifespan from thousands of years to less than half a century.

As for Eldar and Necrontyr having a common ancestor - I'm sure they do. They're both white caucasians, pretty much, which would be an odd thing to develop in a universe where something as evolutionally brilliant as Orks and Tyranids exist without the Old Ones purposefully making it so.



mayegelt said:


> As said it seems wierd and that is why it was likely changed. As for World Dragon of Mars. He predates the Emperor by some time.
> "Last of all, there is the Machine God of the Adeptus Mechanicus themselves. In Imperial thelogy the holy spirit of the Omnissiah worshipped by the tech-priests of Mars is a facet of the Immortal God-Emperor of Mankind - their dogma is categoric on this matter as it is filled with praise for the holy nature of the machine. However, the most ancient and zealously guarded records of their Order tell of a time before the coming of the Emperor when a far older power was paid homage on Mars. They make veiled reference to unspeakable knowledge won in the Golden Age of Technology, and how it brought about Mankind's eventual downfall in the Age of Strife. That such a abject heresy can exist at the very heart of the Imperium is dreadful enough, but the implications if it should ever be proved true are unimaginable."


Yeah, as far as I'm aware the fluff remains that the Emperor is the one who put the Void Dragon into confinement in the Noctis Labyrinth (as opposed to the prior situation where he ruled Mars) and then took over as the 'Omnissiah' and inspiring the Terran myth of St George and the Dragon in the process.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

mayegelt said:


> In that story or at least from when i remember reading it first. Nightbringer ends up defeating and shattering Khaine in to shards. This happened because he used the sword that was the 100th blade that vaul made (the cheep copy) (oh and vaul was hinted to be the same as the machine god back then and the anvil he was chained to by Khaine would be Mars the forge world... and that makes the world dragon / machine god also Vaul.)


You have that backwards. Khaine shattered the Nightbringer's necrodermis, causing shards of the nightbringer's body to embed into Khaine's and forever taint him with the aspect of murder. This is most likely why Khaine became associated with murder and the origin of his Reaper aspect, which was adopted in turn by the Dark Reaper aspect warriors. 

The Nightbringer simply reformed and continued to fight until its subsequent shattering by the necrons during their rebellion.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

It would be interesting if chaos forces broke through Acadia and were attacked by every other race. That would be an interesting scenario and campaign.


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

What I'm most curious about, I think, is the hive mind. It's never really specified what that is, as far as I know. Is it a collective of all tyranid minds? or at least the ones near by? Or is it an entity that controls the buggers from afar? Is there only one, or are there many? If many, do they compete? If one, I would assume it can multi-task pretty damn well? Even if I just missed where it's specified though, I'd still wonder what power the hive mind has. Thus far, I don't think anyone that's not a nid has come into direct contact with the hive mind. If enough of the buggers gather in one place, I wonder if the hive mind could directly intervene. Maybe manifest itself. Maybe invade the minds of the buggers' foes. Is the hive mind a god? Perhaps it's merely a manifestation of Tzeentch. Or one of Khorne's experiments gone wrong. (does he even have experiments?) How did it get there? Maybe it's an Eldar god. And what, if anything, are the buggers running from? And if the hive mind is indeed powerful, why have they not defeated it?

And what are the C'Tan and the Eldar gods in relation to the Chaos gods? Are they on similar levels of power? I think Slaanesh consumed many Eldar Gods, so maybe not, but still - what are they all?

This is just a random idea, and I doubt it will happen, but lets say that GW wanted to have the humans win. What if the Nids were running from the Emperor reborn? On the Golden Throne sits his former corporeal manifestation, but his soul has long since abandoned the imperium. He realized that the only way to deal with Chaos was to present them with a foe without number, and so sent the Tyranids their way. Maybe even created them. Maybe battled the hive mind psychically and sent it running. If he or Gulliman (I forget which I've heard) did create the orks, perhaps they did so in concert. As a buffer, in case the nids got to be too much. Or to distract the necrons. Or to kill chaos. At this point I'm just guessing and I doubt any of this will ever be canon, but it's fun to think about.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Each fleet appears to be controlled by a seperate mind. In the latest Ciaphus Cain novel gaunts from one fleet go berzerk in an effort to kill a hive node from another fleet, indicating a high level of rivalry.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

JAMOB said:


> What I'm most curious about, I think, is the hive mind. It's never really specified what that is, as far as I know. Is it a collective of all tyranid minds? or at least the ones near by? Or is it an entity that controls the buggers from afar? Is there only one, or are there many? If many, do they compete? If one, I would assume it can multi-task pretty damn well? Even if I just missed where it's specified though, I'd still wonder what power the hive mind has. Thus far, I don't think anyone that's not a nid has come into direct contact with the hive mind. If enough of the buggers gather in one place, I wonder if the hive mind could directly intervene. Maybe manifest itself. Maybe invade the minds of the buggers' foes. Is the hive mind a god? Perhaps it's merely a manifestation of Tzeentch. Or one of Khorne's experiments gone wrong. (does he even have experiments?) How did it get there? Maybe it's an Eldar god. And what, if anything, are the buggers running from? And if the hive mind is indeed powerful, why have they not defeated it?


Current lore suggests the Hive Mind was drawn to this galaxy by the psychic signal given by the astronomicon. As far as we can tell, the Hive Mind is a gestalt consciousness comprised of all the tyranid minds collectively, empowered by them all and embodied by the few powerful enough such as Hive Tyrants and Norn Queens. 



JAMOB said:


> And what are the C'Tan and the Eldar gods in relation to the Chaos gods? Are they on similar levels of power? I think Slaanesh consumed many Eldar Gods, so maybe not, but still - what are they all?


The Chaos Gods are beings of raw emotion driven to extreme. They feed on the emotions of mortal beings and feed that energy back in order to perpetuate the flow of emotion and thus maintain their power. 

The Eldar gods are similar in origin but reflect the more specific natures of the eldar psyche rather than all races. Slaanesh, while technically a Chaos god able to feed of all mortal races, found the greatest of her sustenance from the eldar and was able to breach into the galaxy because of them. Given the differences in their origins it is an easy assumption to say that the Chaos gods exceed the eldar gods in scope of power. 

The c'tan are entirely different. Rather than be formed of warp energy, they instead formed from the swirling energies of the forming universe. Physical energy instead of emotional energy. Given that they formed at the same time as the universe itself, it is believed that they cannot be destroyed because they are tied to the fabric of existence itself. Their powers encompass the laws of physics themselves but they are also unable to interact with matter without some sort of vessel, most often the living metal bodies crafted for them by the necrontyr. 



JAMOB said:


> This is just a random idea, and I doubt it will happen, but lets say that GW wanted to have the humans win. What if the Nids were running from the Emperor reborn? On the Golden Throne sits his former corporeal manifestation, but his soul has long since abandoned the imperium. He realized that the only way to deal with Chaos was to present them with a foe without number, and so sent the Tyranids their way. Maybe even created them. Maybe battled the hive mind psychically and sent it running. If he or Gulliman (I forget which I've heard) did create the orks, perhaps they did so in concert. As a buffer, in case the nids got to be too much. Or to distract the necrons. Or to kill chaos. At this point I'm just guessing and I doubt any of this will ever be canon, but it's fun to think about.


I once hypothesized that the tyranids were the last creation of a few surviving Old Ones sent back to cleanse the galaxy of life in order to start over. It is now apparent in the fluff that the Silent King of the necrons, Szarekh has encountered the tyranids in the void and supposedly knows the extent of their forces. He also believes they can be defeated.


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