# Possesed CSM, Some Questions.



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

So, I am going to buy the battleforce soon, just to complement my forces, what I really want to do however, is use Possesed, I think the models are awesome! 

The snag is, I have never used them in game. Looking at their profile, it all looks good to me, 3 str 5 A on the charge, 5++ for those annoying anti-meq weapons. Sure they lack an extra CCW, but that isnt a big deal. 

I understand their random, in terms of the abilities they will receive, but I would really like some veteran oppnions of them to really get a feel for the unit.

Thanks


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

You'll find that almost all veterans are going to tell you that if you want to use possessed you're not going to have a competitive list. They are pretty one-use only really. Run them into combat as soon as possible - only don't assault anything standing in or behind cover since your expensive possessed don't come with grenades.

The randomness of their rules, coupled with the fact that you must make their deployment choices BEFORE rolling on the table renders them almost useless. They are the weakest elite slot in the chaos codex. For assaulty units, Khorne Berserkers are better in almost every way - cheaper, come with grenades, have pistols (so could shoot if neccessary), furious charge (to get the S5), WS5, oh and their troops so count as scoring.

The possessed models are great and are mostly used for adding flavour to your squads. If you're thinking about using possessed, realise that for 2 (or 3?) points more you can buy terminators who come with a 2+/5++ rather than the 3+, have twin-linked bolters and powerweapons guaranteed. 

It is my opinion that if you really want to run "possessed" you're probably going to want to use the space wolves codex as "counts as chaos". I've been mulling over the idea of using the boys from Fenris as Word Bearers. Mark of the Wulfen gives a possessed marine in each squad, and fenrisian wolves are point for point better than lesser daemons. Not to mention every other unit in the codex is better than their chaos equivalent...

Really, I'd love to be able to tell you that possessed are awesome, or can be but it just simply isn't the case. Their rules make them overpriced and inferrior to every/anything else. They don't even make sense when trying to compare their implementation to their fluff (dangerous subject I know but it is true...) for all intents & purposes you should be able to use them like in the old codex where you bought your daemonic gifts, that at least made sense; the chaos marine opens his mind & body to be possessed by *A* daemon, not _some random_ daemon...


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Took a moment to find them, but I had similar thoughts about possessed a few weeks ago and so made a thread here in tactics and then later on a list in the chaos marine sub-forum.

The tactics thread you can find here

And the daemon list you can find over here

Take a look through them, you may find some helpful idea's or answers.




clever handle said:


> Really, I'd love to be able to tell you that possessed are awesome, or can be but it just simply isn't the case. Their rules make them overpriced and inferrior to every/anything else. They don't even make sense when trying to compare their implementation to their fluff (dangerous subject I know but it is true...) for all intents & purposes you should be able to use them like in the old codex where you bought your daemonic gifts, that at least made sense; the chaos marine opens his mind & body to be possessed by A daemon, not some random daemon...


I actually very much disagree with this right here.

Lets compare them to a normal chaos marine
Con's:

No ranged weapon
No additional close combat weapon
No powerfist option on champion
No frag grenades
Almost twice the cost

Pro's:

More base attacks
Higher strength
Fearless
Invulnerable save
Daemonkin rule

For the eleven point price high compared to normal chaos marines, seems pretty good.

Now compared to Noise marines, Khorne berzerkers, and Plague marines (in that order):

-Lower initiative (can be negated by icon of Slaanesh), no ranged attacks, six points more (one if sonic weapons taken), no frag grenades
+Invulnerable save

-Lower WS, no ranged attacks, no access to a powerfist, no furious charge (daemonkin can negate this), five points more, no frag grenades
+Invulnerable save

-No increased toughness (can be negated by icon of Nurgle), no feel no pain (daemonkin can negate this), no ranged attacks, three points more, no frag grenades
+Invulnerable save


Now looking at possessed, there is no doubt they are dedicated close combat troops. With no access to ranged attacks, they have no other option, close combat is a must.

Compare possessed to any of the three big cult choices and the cult troops will be the better buy nine times out of ten. This is in part because unlike possessed, cult troops gain the benefit of only one god. It would likely be very overpowering to give possessed the option of the cult benefits for multiple gods.

Some of those advantages can be negated by the use of icons. And all in all, the icons are not to expensive for what your getting. Slaanesh; imagine getting rending, furious charge, or power weapons with that icon? Khorne; furious charge, fleet, rending, or feel no pain. Nurgle; feel no pain, fleet, rending power weapons, or furious charge.

*Note:* Icons of Nurgle and Tzeentch are very expensive and I would personally only reccomend them in units of ten or greater.

Slaanesh and Khorne icons are less expensive, though do make no mistake that neither are in any way cheap. You can very easily take a five man unit with the icon of Khorne and be as expensive as a ten man chaos marine squad with icon of glory. However keep in mind what your paying for in that unit.


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## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

Also keep in mind that Possessed CANNOT take transport vehicles, so unless you're running a Land Raider they will be walking. 3+ save is not good enough for walking infantry, and they will probably be shot down long before they reach combat.

They also don't actually have a higher Attack stat than standard Chaos Marines. Normal CSMs come with Pistol/CC Weapon standard, granting them +1A. 


Really there is no reason to take Possessed over Berserkers. Zerks have more attacks each, WS5, guaranteed Furious Charge, Assault Grenades, Pistols, can take Transports, can have a Powerfist, are scoring, and cost less.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Deathscythe4722 said:


> Also keep in mind that Possessed CANNOT take transport vehicles, so unless you're running a Land Raider they will be walking. 3+ save is not good enough for walking infantry, and they will probably be shot down long before they reach combat.


Ah... Yes they can:



Codex CSMs said:


> *Transport:*
> The squad may have a Chaos Rhino dedicated transport (see the Chaos Rhino transport entry on page 96).




*It really just boils down to:*

Possessed are good, berserkers are better.

Solution: One of my mates just runs his possessed as 'count as' berserkers.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Possessed are great. Use them as is, don`t center your plan on their ability, just think of that as a bonus.

Run ten of them, no icon. Footslog across the board and your enemy will have no choice but to gun them down, `cos he`s fucked if he doesn`t.


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## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

@ Corsair

Hurrpaderp. I was looking at the wrong entry. Still doesn't change the fact they're terrible though.

@ Serpion5
Thats....a very silly strategy. 260 pts of footslogging T4/3+sv non-scoring models with no ranged attack is a bad deal. You could get a Land Raider + change for those points, and almost anything else in the codex is a better bet.

If nothing else you could pad out your list with a 15-man CSM squad with IOCG and Lascannon. At least that unit is scoring and can lend some fire to the fight.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

I see possessed as having one bad thing - the roll of 1 on the daemon kin abilities that's it!


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Possessed are great. Use them as is, don`t center your plan on their ability, just think of that as a bonus.
> 
> Run ten of them, no icon. Footslog across the board and your enemy will have no choice but to gun them down, `cos he`s fucked if he doesn`t.


that strategy is retarded and in no way competitive. put 10 of them in a rhino if you REALLY want to take them. But bear in mind their one true weakness: being shite.



Blue Liger said:


> I see possessed as having one bad thing - the roll of 1 on the daemon kin abilities that's it!


other than the fact that they dont have grenades, are WS 4, have no ranged attack of any sort and are more expensive than other, more competitive choices.



Deathscythe4722 said:


> Also keep in mind that Possessed CANNOT take transport vehicles, so unless you're running a Land Raider they will be walking. 3+ save is not good enough for walking infantry, and they will probably be shot down long before they reach combat.
> 
> They also don't actually have a higher Attack stat than standard Chaos Marines. Normal CSMs come with Pistol/CC Weapon standard, granting them +1A.
> 
> ...


They can take transports, but they are still shite. Berzerkers can do all that posessed can do AND they can hold objectives.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

mcmuffin said:


> They can take transports, but they are still shite. Berzerkers can do all that posessed can do AND they can hold objectives.


Oh please, yeah Berzerkers are scoring and can hold objectives but that does not mean you will have them do so. (Unless its the last turn and they are to far away from anything but an unclaimed objective)

Like possessed berzerkers want and are designed to remove things from holding objectives; taking objectives at best. Other units can and should hold them, you don't need to waste your points doing that with berzerkers its just an afterthought with them.


mcmuffin, model to model the points difference is a fair bit high; however once you start making whole units its less so. An eight strong berzerker squad with rhino and fist skull champion is a mere thirty points cheaper than an eight strong possessed squad with rhino and icon of Khorne. 

Yeah its thirty points and thats the difference of another berzerker, but even with him on the charge the berzerkers are attacking with 21 regular attacks at S5 (24 when a nine strong squad) and four S9 powerfist attacks. Off the charge they only have 14 (16) regular and 3 fist attacks.


Possessed on the charge, They get 32 for their eight. Thats 32 with the chance its rending, all power weapon attacks, or strength five (the other two are strength five normally) and 24 attacks off the charge.


At thirty points thats seven additional attacks on the charge, and the more attacks the more effective the stats are. (Only four additional attacks when the berzerker squad is nine strong, but the point difference drops to nine.) Off the charge the difference in attacks is seven (nine), thats a difference of about 40%(26%) in favour of the possessed and thats before the effects of daemonkin.


You also have the survivability difference between the two. On top of the daemonkin rule, the higher cost of possessed is also used to pay for the terminator equivalent invulnerable save. Berzerkers don't have that; you hit them with a save denying weapon and thats it, they go down. At least possessed have a one in three chance of surviving it. And then daemonkin giving them the chance to have feel no pain can further increase their overall toughness.



The lack of grenades, lack of ranged attacks, and not being scoring units are three major blows to possessed but that does not stop them from being an interesting and decent unit. Think of it this way, would you want them to be scoring units and be moved to troops? Would you really want another unit cluttering up that section that does not need to be there? (Though it would be interesting for an all possessed army..)

Look at the other elite choices, possessed are not so bad by comparison. I mean you have the dreadnought that most people avoid like the plague, you have terminator and chosen who tend to be set up as one trick ponies meant to die. Your throwing points at suicide units for fucks sake. Then you have possessed, who are clear in what they are supposed to do, have the shock value of the opponent does not know what they can do, and has the additional boon of most people do not use them and are not as easy to counter for it.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Thank you everyone who posted, the responses are pretty much exactly what I expected

@Darkreever, thanks for those links, very helpful! and your oppinions have been quite insightful.

@everyone else, for those of you who bashed possesed in favour of more "competetive" choices, I dont really care. I should have made that clearier, I dont play competetive play, and if I chose too, I know competetive arent the smart choice in that regard. But thank you everyone for your oppinions!

I was considering running them as 10 strong, in a Rhino, with an IoK, or an IoN/IoT havent decided yet.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Personally, other than theme or fun, if your running the squad at ten or fewer I would consider icon of Slaanesh or Khorne where the allocation of points from those icons is much lower. At eleven or higher, the spread of points from the icon of Nurgle and Tzeentch becomes better, especially because such a boost is now being spread over so many of them. (Though I would still say stay away from the icon of Tzeentch. A boost in initiative is good, a boost in attacks is good, a boost in toughness is good, but the boost in invulnerable save is not so good.)


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## Jernmajoren (May 5, 2009)

In armies containing summoned demons the possessed can be very useful.
The cost of a possessed champion isnt that high and with icon whatever hole they can make in the opponents line or near objectives, can be filled by lesser demons.
Also getting scout movement for possessed in a rhino isnt that bad if you can change the champ for a greater demon later on. :wink:


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Thats true about getting the scouts result. Personally I don't care for it, and find it the one true downside of the daemonkin rule. (I like the randomness of the roll, makes thing interesting.)

Regardless of the build of the squad, any of the other five rolls is useful. Scouts is more conditional, and from that less useful.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

but why would you spend more points on a unit that serves the same purpose as berzerkers. Also, Chosen, in my experience, are excellent anti-tank units. they can dish out pain to a land raider, then open up the terminators inside on the next turn with their melta guns. Termies are also wonderful CC units. they have a nice save, are 10 pts cheaper than the loyalist termies, and they have nice power weapons and T-L bolters, letting them scythe open some loyalist termies before they can even strike back. Dreadnoughts are shite through and through. posessed are the second worst elites choice, or the 3rd best


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

mcmuffin said:


> but why would you spend more points on a unit that serves the same purpose as berzerkers. Also, Chosen, in my experience, are excellent anti-tank units. they can dish out pain to a land raider, then open up the terminators inside on the next turn with their melta guns. Termies are also wonderful CC units. they have a nice save, are 10 pts cheaper than the loyalist termies, and they have nice power weapons and T-L bolters, letting them scythe open some loyalist termies before they can even strike back. Dreadnoughts are shite through and through. posessed are the second worst elites choice, or the 3rd best


Compared to how I've seen many members on here using terminators, you'd think they were the worst and getting thrown in to be slaughtered is some form of penitence.

As for why possessed over berzerkers, what happens if your building a list and don't want berzerkers? Maybe you want to play a list using thousand sons, noise marines, plague marine, and/or regular chaos marines and have managed to somehow fill the six slots up.

What if you don't want to use berzerkers?


I have a chaos force, it uses, at most, one unit of berzerkers and I have no intention of taking more.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

@ darkreever exactly when I played CSM I found I really only needed 1 unit of beserkers as anymore was starting to cut into my fire power needed gun down units that CC either just wouldn't cut it or I was too far away to reach.

I like possessed as they are a dedicated Assault squad not I can claim and assault so you know exactly what to do.

On the grenades front in this edition I actually can't remember the last time I charged *into* cover as I usually was killing something in the open or was in that said building or area terrain already...


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## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

Ok, let me clear this up here: Possessed bashing isn't about competitiveness.

CC Terminators are a non-competative choice, but i won't bite your head off for useing them. Possessed go beyond non-competative into the realm of pure badness. I would recommend ANY elites choice over them, even Chaos Dreads.

Honestly, i'd sooner use MoK vanilla CSMs. At least that unit can assault into cover and shoot stuff occasionally.

@ Liger: You've seriously never assaulted into cover? Either you need to punch whoever's doing the Terrain setup in the crotch, or you need to punch your opponent in the crotch, either way someone is doing it very wrong.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Deathscythe4722 said:


> @ Liger: You've seriously never assaulted into cover? Either you need to punch whoever's doing the Terrain setup in the crotch, or you need to punch your opponent in the crotch, either way someone is doing it very wrong.


You have used a lash equipped unit before right? 

And do each and every one of your opponents hold every unit back and wait for you or do some or all of them try to come for you like you do to them?


As far as I can tell from everything your posts indicate Deathscythe, yeah possessed bashing is not about how competitive they are where you are concerned. It seems to be about just bashing them in general because your so ingrained in not using them that you cannot or will not learn to adapt for the sake of being able to do so.


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## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

darkreever said:


> And do each and every one of your opponents hold every unit back and wait for you or do some or all of them try to come for you like you do to them?


No, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that you shouldn't run around in the open if there are units within assault range that can beat you in CC. Also, there should be cover all over the map, not just in deployment zones, so the opponent shouldn't have to hold back to benefit from cover.




> As far as I can tell from everything your posts indicate Deathscythe, yeah possessed bashing is not about how competitive they are where you are concerned. It seems to be about just bashing them in general because your so ingrained in not using them that you cannot or will not learn to adapt for the sake of being able to do so.


Adapt? How am i supposed to adapt to a unit with no Assault grenades, no ranged attack, the same amount of attacks as a 15 pt Chaos Marine, a random rule that wildly varies their effectiveness, and all for damn near the cost of a terminator? 

Adaptability isn't the issue here, its the fact that this unit is totally useless in almost every capacity i can possibly imagine, and the few uses they do have are wildly outshone by cheaper options (who also have ranged attacks and scoring, or 2+ and Power Weapons).


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

Just for what it's worth, I think Possessed with the Mark of Khorne are a pretty good CC attack unit right off the bat - 3x Str 5 attacks from a Fearless unit with the same Invulnerable save as a Terminator - so think of them as deranged shock troops, and just treat whatever the Daemonkin roll gives you as a bonus on top of that. None of those abilities make them _worse_, after all, so treat them as icing on the cake.

Is it annoying that you can't choose which Daemonic ability you get, à la the previous Codex? 
Yes. Welcome to Gav Thorpe's notably flawed Chaos Marine Codex. 
However, hope for the next Codex to be better and - for now - accept the fact that Possessed are fun and, whilst still flawed due to their current implementation, nowhere near the utter trainwreck that the min-maxers' party line would have you believe. And there is indeed a lot to be said for the fact that nobody's going to be expecting to face Possessed* - so you'll have the element of surprise on your side no matter what else happens...




* you should probably call your squad The Spanish Inquisition :biggrin:


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Posssessed = fun throw away unit. I get what everyone is saying, but in all honesty with the current armies/rules we play under possessed are not compatible with any level of competitive play. Are they fun to use? yes. Do they look cool? Yes. Then there are your reasons to use them right there. 

Still I see where Deathscythe4722 is coming from in that in a game of tactics any obvious weakness a unit has will severally limit it in the vast majority of settings, and this applies to all codies/units not just CSM. Still a good opponent will ham string any force reliant on throw away specialists unit like Possessed.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> Still a good opponent will ham string any force reliant on throw away specialists unit like Possessed.


Let me jump on this by pointing out that the same will be done to termicide units and min-maxed infiltrating chosen. Possessed would not be alone in such a role against a good opponent as Luke puts it.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

darkreever said:


> Compared to how I've seen many members on here using terminators, you'd think they were the worst and getting thrown in to be slaughtered is some form of penitence.
> 
> As for why possessed over berzerkers, what happens if your building a list and don't want berzerkers? Maybe you want to play a list using thousand sons, noise marines, plague marine, and/or regular chaos marines and have managed to somehow fill the six slots up.
> 
> ...


do you play competitively with that list? plague marines are the basis of a different kind of list altogether, and i think nurgle is one of the few pure lists that can work to some degree in our abomination of a codex.
i never use termicide, i much prefer a DSing unit with PW and combi-plasma.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

@ Darkreever: I once again agree, Luke Valentine any good opponet will make mince meat of Possessed yes but also any good opponent will make mince meat of those Khorne Beserkers or Terminators, whether they are a throw away unit or not.

Possessed aren't a throw away unit (or specialist as put by LV) - they cost to much to do so much like terminators cost alot,a throw away unit is one that costs absolutely nothing but can hold up and distract the enemy enough to make it seem like a threat.


@ Deathscythe4722 I play with lots of cover on a board if I can - I play DE. I love lots of cover, however I also played CSM, your comment about me having too much open space on my gaming board - question how does your rhino spam or mech spam (if you play them) get around easy and actually do anything if the board is packed with terrain?

What I saying is I pick my battles my opponent actually *play* the game and don't just sit back in cover and have shooting matches from one end of the table to the other, they move and during a game if you blow up a vehicle with men inside in an open space that's the time when units such a Possessed strike!


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Deathscythe4722 said:


> @ Serpion5
> Thats....a very silly strategy. 260 pts of footslogging T4/3+sv non-scoring models with no ranged attack is a bad deal. You could get a Land Raider + change for those points, and almost anything else in the codex is a better bet.





mcmuffin said:


> that strategy is retarded and in no way competitive. put 10 of them in a rhino if you REALLY want to take them. But bear in mind their one true weakness: being shite.


I`ll have you both know that this strategy is what wins me my games... Psychological warfare at its best.

ie: wtf is this guy doing?!



LukeValantine said:


> Posssessed = fun throw away unit. I get what everyone is saying, but in all honesty with the current armies/rules we play under possessed are not compatible with any level of competitive play. Are they fun to use? yes. Do they look cool? Yes. Then there are your reasons to use them right there.
> 
> Still I see where Deathscythe4722 is coming from in that in a game of tactics any obvious weakness a unit has will severally limit it in the vast majority of settings, and this applies to all codies/units not just CSM. Still a good opponent will ham string any force reliant on throw away specialists unit like Possessed.


:goodpost: Here! Luke knows what I`m talking about. They`re a throwaway unit, nothing more. Expensive, but you force your opponent to committ to wiping them out, because if he doesn`t he will find his devastators or broadsides or whatever under siege eventually. 

You don`t take possessed to be competitive, you take them for the theme of them or because you just _want_ to. 

Ultimately, the rest of his army must outdo them if they are to be worthwhile, because you cannot guarantee that the possessed will earn their keep. It`s a matter of them causing a big enough diversion for the rest of your army to earn their points back for them. 

Poke all the holes in it you want, but fact remains it has won roughly two out of every three games I`ve played with them.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> I`ll have you both know that this strategy is what wins me my games... Psychological warfare at its best.
> 
> ie: wtf is this guy doing?!
> 
> ...


yes, but in a tactics discussion, the purpose is generally to determine how competitive a unit is. wasting 260+ points is not competitive. i understand people want to use them in fluffy lists and that is fine. When i am not playing competitively, i might use my Dreadnought, my khorne bikers or my chaos lord, but in a competitive and tactical environment, none of these units work, not because they are terribad ( except the dread) but because there are much better units out there. Possessed make a very aesthetically pleasing army, i have a squad simply because they are a joy to paint, but in a tournament environment, which would be the main purpose of discussion in the tactics forum, it doesn't matter how nice they look. its all about points and tactical use, which weighs heavily in favour of other assault units, namely khorne berzerkers.


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## Gluttoniser (Aug 14, 2010)

My experience with the Possessed is:

Gotta be lucky with Daemonkin.
Gotta be lucky reaching CC.
Gotta be lucky destroying the unit in CC.

Overall, when they DO reach CC they are walking raepmachines. But they almost never will


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## PanzerPig (Apr 15, 2008)

mcmuffin said:


> yes, but in a tactics discussion, the purpose is generally to determine how competitive a unit is. wasting 260+ points is not competitive.


I'd like to jump in here and say while how 'competitive' a unit is can be mentioned in a tactical debate it is by no means the be all and end all. Rather a tactics discussion about them would involve how to actually get the best out of them rather than dismissing them completely. 

I have a chaos player who I allow to roll the result before deployment as we both think it makes a hell of a lot more sense and that's all dandy in a social match and I think one of our better house rules. In a tournament obviously not but I don't really bother with those any who. So if you can get your opponent to agree to that then it makes possessed a lot more useful and interesting in the game. 

On a final note, possessed (even using all the rules in the book i.e. post deployment rolling) they fill a gap in a fluffy army. As someone mentioned you may not want to take zerkers because you may be a 1k son's player, in which case possessed and lesser deamons gives you some CC potential without sacrificing the theme of your army. 

Just a few thoughts,
Panzer


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

Hmm...

They are a very interesting unit, I mean, you can kit them up with any Icon, giving them the different marks whatever. But I think the best one is IOK, mainly because you get the +1 Attack... 

I think, loaded in a rhino, making sure they aren't footslogging, just like Berzerkers if they footslog, they're dead meat. If I had the money, all my units for Chaos would run in Transports, but I don't have the cash. If they are footslogging however, try and use terrain to your advantage, since the additional cover save will help them immensly. 

All you've got to do, is think of them like transporting a china teapot. If you don't package it well (in our case, use them on the table well), then when you drop it (get shot), then the teapot will break (the squad will go to shit).

IOK is probably your best bet, if you do manage to get them into combat, at least you get some decent attacks in, just don't waste them on close combat troops that your opponent is using, for instance, if I was against any marine army, try and get them into combat with some Tactical Marines, at least that way, you might make them take a morale check or whatever. Just don't get them in combat with some Terminators, cause you're gonna lose...

So, all in all, they are expensive target practice. Not really the best unit to use completely. But if you use them half decently you can hurt the opponents troops (provided they aren't Deathwing, or something that is pretty awesome in combat!).

I am going to use them in a game this weekend, and will do what I've done before, troop target practics (since my opponent plays nearly all marine armies).


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Lets think about this from a comparing point of view:

A Normal marine is 9 points less per model, and loses 1STR and 1A, a 5++ and a really flawed special rule.

Compare them to Khorne Berserkers on the charge (5 points less per model): The Possessed lose by 1WS/1I

Compare them to Terminators (for 4 points MORE); The possessed lose by a 2+ save AND a *power weapon*, but have the upper hand on STR5.

5 Possessed for X points 
5 Terminators = 5*(X+4) equals X+20.

5 possessed locked in combat with 5 termies, 10 attacks; hitting on 4s roughly 5 hits
-3s to wound, 2/3 wounds (Say 3, give them the benfit of the doubt)
Termies get a 2+ save; all saved; maybe 1 dies.

5 Termies deal out 10 attacks in return; the same applies
Hit on 4s, 5 hits, wound on 4s: 3 wounds
3 Dead.

Possessed *lose *by 2 wounds. At the cost of 20 points to the Termie user.

5 Possessed roughly equates to 6(.1) Berserkers; but for me, I'd take and a powerfist champ.

10 attacks; hitting on 4s roughly 5 hits
-3s to wound, 3 wounds (Say 3, give them the benfit of the doubt)
Zerkers get a 3+ save; 1 dies.

8 Zerker attacks hit on 4s, 4 hit, wound on 4s, 2 hit
Possessed get a 3+
⅔ die

3 powerfist hits, 2/1 hits, 1 wound;
1 dead: totalling 1⅔

Possessed *lose* by ⅔ of a wound(But it's roughly equal)

However I'd give 'Zerkers the edge, because they're scoring, and Daemonkin is unreliable.

I don't know how much of a helpful insight this is; But the morale of the story is take terminators. :laugh:

I'm anti-possessed. If you want a distraction: More people look at terminators as a threat; 3 Termies will do the job better than 5 possessed, and the termies can take combi-meltas, and bust a tank.
If you want a tough unit: Termies can take more heat, and dish more out
If you want a nice amount of attacks: 'Zerkers do this for cheaper, and are scoring, and can take a powerfist champ.

Can't think of anything else they'd be used for.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Did you include the invulnerable save for possessed in those results ROT?

If a berzerker champion is causing single wound with his fist, shouldn't the invulnerable save bring that down to a death of 2/3 and not the full amount?

Same goes for the terminator wounds: thats the difference of a whole possessed still alive and the difference in that combat by one. Still in favour of the terminators, but not by as much now.


Now you did these two with no dameonkin result, imagine how this might be affected by rending, feel no pain (against the berzerkers only), or power weapons? Like the invulnerable save, the points per model of possessed includes their daemonkin rule. To completely ignore some rules for a unit when comparing it to another is just asking to possibly give that compared unit an initial step up.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

darkreever said:


> Did you include the invulnerable save for possessed in those results ROT?


 True; I'm not sure how much of a difference It'd make.



darkreever said:


> If a berzerker champion is causing single wound with his fist, shouldn't the invulnerable save bring that down to a death of 2/3 and not the full amount?


 I'm not sure if It'd equate to a 2/3; But regardless, It's a win for the 'Zerkers anyway.
Isn't it instant-death anyway?



darkreever said:


> Same goes for the terminator wounds: thats the difference of a whole possessed still alive and the difference in that combat by one. Still in favour of the terminators, but not by as much now.


True



darkreever said:


> Now you did these two with no dameonkin result, imagine how this might be affected by rending, feel no pain (against the berzerkers only), or power weapons? Like the invulnerable save, the points per model of possessed includes their daemonkin rule. To completely ignore some rules for a unit when comparing it to another is just asking to possibly give that compared unit an initial step up.


 Yeah, The reason I ignored this rule, is because you can't guarantee on a single one. Admittedly I am biased against possessed, so apologies if I've been unfair; I know specially that you are a fan of Possessed, we've had this run in before, haven't we: Mr. Reever. :laugh:


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Yes, yes we have; in the case of the daemonkin results what you really have to end up doing is going through the results for the ones that have any effect (feel no pain, rending, power weapon, and a regular one for the results that have no effect in prolonged combat.)

It gets a bit more annoying, because its four times the work for the possessed side of things and the result is probably going to favour the terminators or berzerkers to some degree (except for power weapons, those even the playing field against terminators and give the edge against berzerkers.)


I made the mention of the fraction because you yourself did that. The berzerker unit causing 1 2/3 wounds and winning by 2/3. If you go so far as to round up to 2, someone can then argue that with the invulnerable save the death total can be rounded down to 1 and the result is equal.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

I guess we're about as undecided as always, 'eh; I suppose at the end of the day, it's just a matter of preference


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

You forgot to include the 1-2 that die before combat, as they take fire from the units they are trying to get into CC with.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

*Some Math*

Green -----> Red 

=

Best -----> Worst



CRCL's Maths said:


> 7 Khorne Berserkers & A Skull Champion with a PF. = 208 pts
> 7 Possessed with MoK. = 212 pts
> 
> *Assuming units get the charge.*
> ...




Essentially unless you're feeling lucky and are confident you can roll that 6 berserkers are better. They can also: 
-Can hold objectives
-Have grenades.
-Can take a dread on in CC.
-Can instant kill that pesky SM commander in CC.
-Strike first more often.

But as I said before, if you really love the possessed models, just use them as 'count as' berserkers.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

darkreever said:


> Lets compare them to a normal chaos marine
> Con's:
> 
> No ranged weapon
> ...


Actually for twice the cost you can get terminators, who are better in every regard. Add in the con that they get no champ options whatsoever.



darkreever said:


> Pro's:
> 
> More base attacks
> Higher strength
> ...


Real fast, in gameplay they get the exact same amount of attacks.


Instead of possessed(Which are terrible) I prefer to use either terminators (For a mere handful of points you get a 2+ armor save(Possessed can never receive this), power weapons -standard-, and a twin linked bolter. You lose fearless, but ld10 on terminators is alright, and you get way cheaper icons.

But if you have your heart set on running them, maybe try the competitive alternative?
Take fabius bile(Not competitive but his marines are), and pump up each ten man squad of nillas to possessed base stats(s5, fearless), add an icon of tzeentch(5+ invul) and then take a champ with fist(Easily better than the daemonkin table). Suddenly you have possessed that score, can shoot pistols, and have a fist. They can even take special weapons. And against zerks they perform admirably.(Always s5, and a 5++)

The problem with possessed has been explained before, they cost too much and their's no effective way to field them since they're always random. I don't know why GW decided to shit all over them. Last edition people rarely took them. So they increased the cost, took away all the guns, stopped letting the champ shop in the armor and made the table random? Seriously, this killed possessed.

I like using the bits to make possessed-like chaos marines, they look really nice.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

LordWaffles said:


> Actually for twice the cost you can get terminators, who are better in every regard. Add in the con that they get no champ options whatsoever.
> 
> 
> Real fast, in gameplay they get the exact same amount of attacks.
> ...


i would love to be able to use possessed, because i love the models, but i think that count as Zerkers would work too. i must do that sometime.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

Except McMuffin you can only give FB's upgrade to chaos space marines - not possessed or any of the cult troopers


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

mcmuffin said:


> i would love to be able to use possessed, because i love the models, but i think that count as Zerkers would work too. i must do that sometime.



That's the biggest problem - Possessed models, are damn sexy.. Shame I'm so against them really.


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## DeathsShadow (Oct 12, 2010)

i love running possessed in fun games. i mean there is the possibility of rolling a 1 for demonkin but 5 out of 6 times you actually get something different. i dont run big squads or anything usually just the 5 man for the look of it to support DPs and such. i personally wouldnt take them in serious games as like it has been mentioned there are other units to better spend the points that are a safer choice.
the best thing about possessed is u can use them to make some pretty awsome conversions and such


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## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> So, I am going to buy the battleforce soon, just to complement my forces, what I really want to do however, is use Possesed, I think the models are awesome!
> 
> The snag is, I have never used them in game. Looking at their profile, it all looks good to me, 3 str 5 A on the charge, 5++ for those annoying anti-meq weapons. Sure they lack an extra CCW, but that isnt a big deal.
> 
> ...


A lot has been said but I am just going to toss my 2 cents on the possessed.

The Special ability breakdown (which I am sure you know but I am adding this to my tactica so I typed it all out once.):

*Scout--*

*Pro:* You can toss the Possessed in a Rhino and move them a full 12" gettting closer to the enemy. 

*Con:* You can't assault out of a moving Rhino. (Obveously this depends on having first turn or not)

*Furious Charge*--

*Pro:* Zerkers anyone? Str 6 on the Charge? Certainly can't complain about that! 

*Con:* N/A imo...

*Fleet*--

*Pro:* When it comes to foot slogging, you have no ranged weapons so you must run. Having fleet allows for a number of new tactics with vehicles.

*Con:* N/A imo again this ability has a variety of tactics that come with it.

*Rending*--

*Pro:* Best with IoS (striking before most) but I think IoK is best to maximize swings to allow the possibility of more rending attacks.

*Con:* Pretty dependent on vehicles for movement.

*FnP*--

*Pro:* Speaks for itself really.. its FnP can never really complain about it. it simple = higher survivability. This with IoN or IoT always makes it that much more interesting.

*Con:* If they are stuck foot slogging.

*Power Weapons*--

*Pro:* IoS and IoK are the best here. Giving them more attacks or the chance to strike first with power weapons makes any MeQ squad shake!

*Con:* need double armed!!!! lol

Aspiring Champion?--

HELL NO imo.. waste of points. For a squad that is very unpredictable I would not invest any more points then the bare minimum on these gents only because you don't know what they are going to do.

Rhino?--

With out a doubt.... YESSSSSS:shok::shok:


*My Possessed set ups:*

*5 man squad:* These I just use as a gamble squad and maybe cause the enemy to think free things to shoot at and they veer away from the real threats.

*10 man squad in a rhino:* Slap them in a Rhino enough said!

Cheers,
Chaosftw


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

clever handle said:


> Except McMuffin you can only give FB's upgrade to chaos space marines - not possessed or any of the cult troopers


Fabius Bile's upgrade can be used on any squad of "Chaos Space Marines" units with that exact phrase in the unit title may benefits, so the following units work:
"Chaos Space Marines"
"Possessed Chaos Space Marines"
"Chosen Chaos Space Marines"

And I think the bikers maybe. I've never run them so I have no idea.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

LordWaffles said:


> Fabius Bile's upgrade can be used on any squad of "Chaos Space Marines" units with that exact phrase in the unit title may benefits, so the following units work:
> "Chaos Space Marines"
> "Possessed Chaos Space Marines"
> "Chosen Chaos Space Marines"
> ...


Full marks for cunning.

However, it actually says "Chaos Space Marine squads" so, as everything has Marine*s* not Marine, it does not work on anything.:wink:


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Yep Dave T is right, mind you every thread ever made on the subject of bile would have told you the limitations of Bile's use.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Hey, worst case scenario you just use the bitz for other units. They make GREAT conversion parts.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Dave T Hobbit said:


> Full marks for cunning.
> 
> However, it actually says "Chaos Space Marine squads" so, as everything has Marine*s* not Marine, it does not work on anything.:wink:


Are you ready? I'm going to do a bit of magic here, especially since no ruling has been said either way.



Dave T Hobbit said:


> However, it actually says "Chaos Space Marine" so, as everything has Chaos Space Marine, it does work on anything.:wink:


You see what I did? What you used was circular logic, the ruling you presented to me can be refuted or claimed by the same phrase and same logic. Every entry I mentioned fulfills the requirement of being a squad of "Chaos Space Marine"s. Thus will reap the benefit.

Though you should ask your tournament organizer as it's never been declared one way or another.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

LordWaffles said:


> Dave T Hobbit said:
> 
> 
> > Full marks for cunning.
> ...


Decided to continue our mutual highlighting of GWs lack of precision?



LordWaffles said:


> What you used was circular logic, the ruling you presented to me can be refuted or claimed by the same phrase and same logic. Every entry I mentioned fulfills the requirement of being a squad of "Chaos Space Marine"s. Thus will reap the benefit.


Exactly: there is no definate answer. If you assume it means all squads containing "%Chaos Space Marine%" nearly everything gets it; if you assume if means all squads containing "% Chaos Space Marine %" then no-one gets it. The only interpretation that is valid is that it does not apply to, and only to, vanilla CSM squads; which is amusing given it is usually how it is applied.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Dave T Hobbit said:


> Decided to continue our mutual highlighting of GWs lack of precision?
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly: there is no definate answer. If you assume it means all squads containing "%Chaos Space Marine%" nearly everything gets it; if you assume if means all squads containing "% Chaos Space Marine %" then no-one gets it. The only interpretation that is valid is that it does not apply to, and only to, vanilla CSM squads; which is amusing given it is usually how it is applied.


Actually it'd only affect the above three squads that I mentioned outside of vanillas. And it'd seem almost fluffy that they'd get it considering they're on foot, not specifically god troops, and could act as a buff meant for legions who aren't devoted to a certain god(plagues, zerks, etc) everywhere in NC that I've gone they've ruled this way. But yeah it's not a really solid rule.

And I've no idea why in any competitive setting someone would rule against it, it's not exactly bloodrazor/wolfrazorlongfang spam.

So by the same counter logic the only valid interpretation is that it applies to the four squads I mentioned, and nothing else, thus placing possessed and chosen higher on the ranks of the elites ladder, that they may be taken instead of terminators.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

LordWaffles said:


> Actually it'd only affect the above three squads that I mentioned outside of vanillas.


Unless you assume that Chaos Space Marines encompasses everything in C:SM that is a Marine; Terminators are Marines, Defilers are not, Dreadnoughts are a tricky case.



LordWaffles said:


> ...I've no idea why in any competitive setting someone would rule against it....


Probably tradition: the previous incarnation of Fabius' rules are limited to normal CSM without a mark, worded to be restrictive. Whilst the new codex in theory is not limited by previous editions in my experience is that even judges sometimes view the rules as remaining similar.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Dave T Hobbit said:


> Unless you assume that Chaos Space Marines encompasses everything in C:SM that is a Marine; Terminators are Marines, Defilers are not, Dreadnoughts are a tricky case.


Oh no, I never use fluff arguments, because they don't matter in RaW. My basis for argument is in the actual unit titles. Chaos Terminators are NOT dudes that have "Chaos Space Marine" in the title. Thus under no circumstance could they benefit.


Dave T Hobbit said:


> Probably tradition: the previous incarnation of Fabius' rules are limited to normal CSM without a mark, worded to be restrictive. Whilst the new codex in theory is not limited by previous editions in my experience is that even judges sometimes view the rules as remaining similar.


Good mention of the previous codex, but as for right now, in RaW, it does not aid nor deny the current confusion. Plus if we made any argument involving the old codex as a standpoint the judges would slap the shit out of us vigorously. They aren't fans of it  Believe you me.
I'm of the belief that in any casual-competitive setting it'd be allowed but for 'ard boyz it'd have to be argued as thus in order to be used, so play safe or expect to argue it?


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

On a random side note to this thread do possessed that roll power weapons get dual wield, I ask because the wording in the entry leads me to believe so in that they would then have a CCW and a power weapon.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

I always took it that their single close combat weapon BECOMES a power weapon.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

LordWaffles said:


> Oh no, I never use fluff arguments, because they don't matter in RaW. My basis for argument is in the actual unit titles. Chaos Terminators are NOT dudes that have "Chaos Space Marine" in the title. Thus under no circumstance could they benefit.


My lack of clarity there possibly: I meant "you" in the general sense of a person making an argument rather than "you" in the sense of cross-hatched sugary goodness.

I am not actually arguing fluff so much as where fluff begins: an example from another Codex would be that Grey Knight Terminators are Grey Knights, whereas a Grey Knights Land Raider is not, so there are cases where having the string in the name is not the guide but being in line with fluff is.



LordWaffles said:


> Good mention of the previous codex, but as for right now, in RaW, it does not aid nor deny the current confusion. Plus if we made any argument involving the old codex as a standpoint the judges would slap the shit out of us vigorously. They aren't fans of it  Believe you me.


Thank you.

i agree that previous editions do not actually resolve queries from the current edition; my point was that, with it being clear in the previous edition, some judges might not approach discussion of how it worked with an open mind.



LordWaffles said:


> I'm of the belief that in any casual-competitive setting it'd be allowed but for 'ard boyz it'd have to be argued as thus in order to be used, so play safe or expect to argue it?


My strategy would be to have a strategy that worked if you could not use Fabius to boost anyone as well as a preferred strategy.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm using a chaos dread in my new army, why exactly are they bad


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> On a random side note to this thread do possessed that roll power weapons get dual wield, I ask because the wording in the entry leads me to believe so in that they would then have a CCW and a power weapon.


From the book:
"Possessed gain the special rule or equipment listed"

Basic Response: Last time I checked, scouts, furious charge, feel no pain, fleet, and rending were not equipment. Power weapons were.


Detailed Response: But then again nobs have feel no pain attached to wargear, and harlequins have rending attached to the kisses. Also power weapon is a special rule attached to close combat gear.

Welcome to the most vague codex ever written. Enjoy your stay



Dave T Hobbit said:


> an example from another Codex would be that Grey Knight Terminators are Grey Knights, whereas a Grey Knights Land Raider is not, so there are cases where having the string in the name is not the guide but being in line with fluff is.


Ah but this would be an example from a codex that isn't conducive to the current argument. Or to put it more simply, apples and oranges, there hasn't been a standard set in any legit codex that bears anything close to resembling fabius biles rule.
Or if you'd prefer a better refute, the grey knights land raider is still a member of the faction grey knights and is crewed by them. With it's subheading of "Grey Knights" it is subject to any rules that "Grey Knights" benefit from that doesn't exclude them, such as the shrouding which specifically states it only applies to footsloggers.


Dave T Hobbit said:


> i agree that previous editions do not actually resolve queries from the current edition; my point was that, with it being clear in the previous edition, some judges might not approach discussion of how it worked with an open mind.


It's not so much an open mind as the fact the rule is completely open to interpretation and both sides can stand on the same ground based on the same sentence. I'd liken it to the deffrolla argument from pre-errata.
No matter which way you turned the argument, each side had fair examples to show why or why not it works/doesn't work.


Dave T Hobbit said:


> My strategy would be to have a strategy that worked if you could not use Fabius to boost anyone as well as a preferred strategy.


If I -reeeeally- wanted to play the least fun codex that I can purchase, I would not chance my potential double lashing victory with fabius bile at all hahah.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

That was exactly my reasoning behind rolling power weapons giving dual wield, has anyone got a GW perspective on this matter (Even though that in itself tends to be fairly useless).


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

LordWaffles said:


> Ah but this would be an example from a codex that isn't conducive to the current argument. Or to put it more simply, apples and oranges, there hasn't been a standard set in any legit codex that bears anything close to resembling fabius biles rule.
> Or if you'd prefer a better refute, the grey knights land raider is still a member of the faction grey knights and is crewed by them. With it's subheading of "Grey Knights" it is subject to any rules that "Grey Knights" benefit from that doesn't exclude them, such as the shrouding which specifically states it only applies to footsloggers.


The difference between a vehicle containing a Grey Knight being a Grey Knight and a suit of Terminator armour containing a Chaos Marine being a Chaos Marine is paper thin; however, I do see your argument.



LordWaffles said:


> If I -reeeeally- wanted to play the least fun codex that I can purchase, I would not chance my potential double lashing victory with fabius bile at all hahah.


Really? I am shocked. Next you will be suggesting 5 man Thousand Sons squads are not the ideal troop choice :wink:


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> That was exactly my reasoning behind rolling power weapons giving dual wield, has anyone got a GW perspective on this matter (Even though that in itself tends to be fairly useless).


There is no GW perspective that would matter in this in a tournament setting.

I'd argue they get the additional weapon since it is MOST LIKENED to being a piece of wargear and not as a special rule.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Hence why they have the section describing the rule that states wargear rather then just stating they get the applied rule/affect.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> Hence why they have the section describing the rule that states wargear rather then just stating they get the applied rule/affect.


The only hazard you'd get is from the alpha douche, spraying his foul "ME ROVE RAW" everywhere.

The possessed entry says they gain the "Special rule or wargear" and this is where it's fuzzy as it does not say USR.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Anyone else noticed this oddity with the possessed rules?


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Damn you Gav Thorpe.

Hey I was thinking about sending him my chaos codex. Writing on the top in bright fun colors:
"TAKE THIS SHIT BACK"


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

I am going to put together 10-15 posessed and try them out. If they arent performing then i will use them as bloodletters in a demon army. Maybe even model some posessed on juggernauts as bloodcrushers. It is a shame they are less than excellent because they are magnificent models.


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