# Horus Heresy, comparable to the Bible?



## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

It's an epic story that has in it the depth and force of humanities greatest and worst talents. If it was streamlined down to be applicable to a broader audience(Generalize the daemons, tone down the sci fi(instead of planet conquering maybe land conquering?) could it form itself into a story just as great and powerful as the King James Bible? The Koran? What say you?


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Not really, 40K is inspired by Biblical style mythology as well as tons of other random sci fi and fantasy material. In fact, the whole Heresy story bears a lot of similarities to the fall of Lucifer. He was Gods favourite and turned against his father in rebelion, he lost and was cast out of heaven. Hundreds of similar stories exist in other mythologies 40K has just taken them and given them power armour and bolt guns.


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## Angelus Censura (Oct 11, 2010)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Not really, 40K is inspired by Biblical style mythology as well as tons of other random sci fi and fantasy material. In fact, the whole Heresy story bears a lot of similarities to the fall of Lucifer. He was Gods favourite and turned against his father in rebelion, he lost and was cast out of heaven. Hundreds of similar stories exist in other mythologies 40K has just taken them and given them power armour and bolt guns.


This.


There are hundreds of references to mythology and religion, if not more, within the fluff of the 40k universe. Many names of important characters have been taken from the names of Daemons mentioned in the bible, Latin refereneces, paganistic beliefs, etc. The 40k universe, as well as the Heresy, is a huge compilation mish mash mix up of thousands of historical references, occurances, cutlural styles, and beliefs. 

Which gives me a cool idea - "the cultural and religious roots of the 40k universe", a book referencing the similarities between the made up 40k world, and where the stories were taken in history and culture.

Many of the Space Wolf runes for instance are taken from Germanic, Anglo Saxon, and Nordic cultures.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

It certainly draws quite a few parallels from the war in heaven. In particular Horus is the obvious Lucifer, the fallen Angel. While Sanguinius couldn't be a more obvious homage to the Archangel Michael. Although i feel the need to point out that its more of a comparison with Paradise Lost than the bible itself. Alot of people confuse the two stories of being one and the same


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Actually the Lucifer story is from Islamic and Jewish mytholgy, the names are different but they basically tell of an angel that refused to either bow down before Adam or wanted to be held in higher regard than God. In both stories the angel was cast out of heaven and either into the pit or was damned to wander until judgement day. Paradise Lost put a Catholic spin on a much older story.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yes but im refering to the much more specific details of the war in heaven that Paradise Lost deals with, such as michael and him taking charge to throw the angels out, even going so far as to wound Lucifer, which draws the extreme parrallel for Sanguinius. And regardless of the old Jewish and Islamic stories, it's still blantenly a parrallel with Paradise Lost even if it didn't come first.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

I thought so, I was just pointing out that there is more substance to the Lucifer story than just the John Milton poem. A lot of people dismiss the whole thing thinking it has no real theological basis which, as I have pointed out, it does.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Yes in that they are both complete fiction invented by writers for their own purposes and a lot of people believe every word they read. :laugh:

In fact I'd go so far as to say W40K is more believeable than the rubbish written in the bible and in all religeons (in my opinion). :victory:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I agree ^^


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

Almost every ancient religious culture has a battle betwwen the gods, Horus v Set in Egypt, Ragnarok between the Eldar Godds and the Ice/Storm Giants, The Olympians and the Titans.

Oddly enough the difference between ancient myth based culture and more recent moral lesson based preaching religion seems to be a basis for supporting a God Emperor as ruler. The Imperial Cult of Rome, and the God Emperors of Egypt, China and Japan and even the Jihadic Grand Khalif of Islam.

There is a very powerful relationship between religion and king in ancient cultures almost as though they are one and the same thing.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

MuSigma said:


> Almost every ancient religious culture has a battle betwwen the gods, Horus v Set in Egypt, Ragnarok between the Eldar Godds and the Ice/Storm Giants, The Olympians and the Titans.
> 
> Oddly enough the difference between ancient myth based culture and more recent moral lesson based preaching religion seems to be a basis for supporting a God Emperor as ruler. The Imperial Cult of Rome, and the God Emperors of Egypt, China and Japan and even the Jihadic Grand Khalif of Islam.
> 
> There is a very powerful relationship between religion and king in ancient cultures almost as though they are one and the same thing.


This is true but even fairly modern monarchies are/were based on the ruling king being able to trace his ancestory back to God. :king:


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## Aldhissla (Dec 3, 2010)

Not really, to me the Religion and Mythology is peoples way of explaining things they can't understand. People wondered how the Earth came to be, so they made up stories to explain it's creation, and so on. You can see in Norse mythology for example, how the harsh environment they lived in is reflected in their myths i.e. Frost Giants parallel the wintery climate. More current religions seem to provide moral guidance and instruction on how one should live their lives.

The Horus Heresy doesn't really seem to share any of these elements, it's more or less just a good story.


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

I prefer to think that the Horus Heresy is more like a shakepearean tragedy with a preposterous amount of testosterone. Also commonly referred to as "preposterone".


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## jman9999999 (Jul 30, 2010)

zerachiel76 said:


> Yes in that they are both complete fiction invented by writers for their own purposes and a lot of people believe every word they read. :laugh:
> 
> In fact I'd go so far as to say W40K is more believeable than the rubbish written in the bible and in all religeons (in my opinion). :victory:


Wow... that's really sad... you think that 40k (a futuristic apocalypse story with aliens, psychics, and daemons... oh, and Orks) is more believable than a (nearly) 2000 year old book, and accompanying religion, that billions of people still found their lives on today, and that, even from an atheistic point of view, is full of rules that you should live by. Just look at the ten commandments, and then look at the law (Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not commit adultery etc.). I admit, some of the Old Testament rules are a bit ridiculous, specifically the whole book of Leviticus(don't shave your sideburns off, shellfish are an abomination, etc.) but comparing a creation story, and thriving religion, some of which is feasible from a scientific point of view, to a 20 year old tabletop game background story... i weep at what the world has become. Other than that rant, I can see the similarities between the lucifer story and Horus.

Also, don't you think there are similarities between the story of eden and the human rise to power? the fruit of forbidden knowledge would be psychic power, the 'being cast out of eden' bit the destruction of the human empire.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

jman9999999 said:


> Wow... that's really sad... you think that 40k (a futuristic apocalypse story with aliens, psychics, and daemons... oh, and Orks) is more believable than a (nearly) 2000 year old book, and accompanying religion, that billions of people still found their lives on today, and that, even from an atheistic point of view, is full of rules that you should live by.


Your post made me laugh. If you re read my post I said they're both complete fiction and A LOT OF PEOPLE believe every word they read. I didn't mention what I believe apart from believing they're fiction.

The Jedi also have some nice rules to live by (only use knowledge to help and assist others, only use the force to defend and heal never to harm etc) however this doesn't stop this being fiction either. However your point about the rules in it (not killing etc) is a good point and I agree.

The fact that billions of people believe it doesn't make it true. Many people used to worship the sun (Ra), others worshipped the Roman gods. Numbers don't count when you're wrong as the dying out of these old religeons prove.

You said it yourself "a creation story" - that's either a complete fiction or its more likely to be their own interpretation of past events. 7 days of creation = 7 ages of the earth for example. Either way it's almost certainly not what happened in reality.

I said the point tongue in cheek hence the smilies, however my point stands. They're both fiction with little or no basis in historical fact.

When judged as a story, fiction and someone's ideas the bible is an interesting case study. To me it ranks alongside such literary works as The Lord of The Rings for example. Lord of The Rings is someone else's interpretation of the creation of the world as Middle Earth is actually meant to be our world many thousands of years ago.

Just my 2 pence worth :grin:


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## Aldhissla (Dec 3, 2010)

zerachiel76 said:


> Your post made me laugh. If you re read my post I said they're both complete fiction and A LOT OF PEOPLE believe every word they read. I didn't mention what I believe apart from believing they're fiction.
> 
> The Jedi also have some nice rules to live by (only use knowledge to help and assist others, only use the force to defend and heal never to harm etc) however this doesn't stop this being fiction either. However your point about the rules in it (not killing etc) is a good point and I agree.
> 
> ...


Except whilst many things in the bible are exaggerated and unbelievable, it's not fair to call it fiction. Many events are probably based on historical events from the time, but put in a religious setting, e.g. natural disaster was sent by God for x reason. Perhaps Sodom was a city that was destroyed in some natural disaster, and people from around decided it was because God was angry at the people for being pricks. 

Also, the gospel is more of a biography than fiction, whether you believe he was the son of God or not, Jesus wasn't a fictional character.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Cosidering they're both best selling works of fiction, the HH series is exactly like the bible.


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## Luisjoey (Dec 3, 2010)

Heresy mark a difference; before heresy and after heresy! 

is the principal event in 40k universe.


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## lordjerry777 (Oct 29, 2009)

yes I do think that many religious themes found their way into 40k. I don't know much because I'm an atheist but i know enough because I'm a history buff.
On thing that really stuck out was the fall of the dark angles.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> It certainly draws quite a few parallels from the war in heaven. In particular Horus is the obvious Lucifer, the fallen Angel. While Sanguinius couldn't be a more obvious homage to the Archangel Michael. Although i feel the need to point out that its more of a comparison with Paradise Lost than the bible itself. Alot of people confuse the two stories of being one and the same


Good point. I find it strange that in the Battle For the Abyss, there was a reference to the Divine Comedy

and i dont care how good the books get, NOTHING can replace my Bible


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

I always thought it would be funny if, say 2000 years down the line some culture finds a book series like the Horus Heresy and it becomes a new religion. I could definitely see it happening.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

xNoPityx said:


> I always thought it would be funny if, say 2000 years down the line some culture finds a book series like the Horus Heresy and it becomes a new religion. I could definitely see it happening.


That would be HERESY!


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

It would become a series of minor sects and subcultures. 

The Prophet Graham McNeill and his followers the Ultramarines and lost Thousand Sons would be worshipped by one sect while the teachings of Dan Abnett and his servants the Luna Wolves and Space Wolves would lead others to war with the followers of McNeillism.

It would seem our race is doomed to wage religious wars forever. :cray:


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

Yah, and the Holy and most Venerable Russ, champion of Abnett, Beloved by all, doth raised the Arch-Heretic Magnus, sire of a thousand sons, beloved spawn of the dreaded McNeil, Over his blessed head. Then, the most Holy and Venerable Russ, Brought down the Arch-Heretic over thine Blessed and armored knee. The Arch-Heretic Magnus, broken and batter by the most Holy and Venerable Russ's blow, performed and act of cowardice worthy of his despised sire, he fled from Russ's wrath, and took his bastard sons with him. Thus the arch-heretic had yet another day to suckle on the diseased tit of the Heathen God McNeil.

Excerpt from The Book of Abnett.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

xNoPityx said:


> Yah, and the Holy and most Venerable Russ, champion of Abnett, Beloved by all, doth raised the Arch-Heretic Magnus, sire of a thousand sons, beloved spawn of the dreaded McNeil, Over his blessed head. Then, the most Holy and Venerable Russ, Brought down the Arch-Heretic over thine Blessed and armored knee. The Arch-Heretic Magnus, broken and batter by the most Holy and Venerable Russ's blow, performed and act of cowardice worthy of his despised sire, he fled from Russ's wrath, and took his bastard sons with him. Thus the arch-heretic had yet another day to suckle on the diseased tit of the Heathen God McNeil.
> 
> Excerpt from The Book of Abnett.


I`m converting! 


Kidding, I`m atheist. Have rep for that talent anyway! :laugh:


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> Sanguinius couldn't be a more obvious homage to the Archangel Michael.


Good call, I always assumed he was Jesus (or John Lennon XD) but then Im not really big on religion, unfortunately I need proof, not the biased writings of Throne knows how many writers.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Actually, I think that, rather than the Bible, the Heresy is more akin to the Reformation. Lorgar is Martin Luther, the Emperor the Pope. The different Primarchs are the important Elector Dukes and Archbishops fighting for and against this new way of thinking. The higher ranking Imperial and civilian Admins might be the members of religious orders and the Courts of Kings/Princes, especially those whe believe differently to their boss and are trying to push them to one side or another.
Funnily, there might also be a place for the 'Lion is undecided thing'. As the Reformation causes chaos around medieaval Europe, King Henry VIII writes a book castigating it and defending the Pope (which is how he got the title 'Defender of the Faith', which is hereditary- which is funny as after Henry, there were no more Catholic British Monarchs to defend the Catholic faith!). Later, Henry decides that isn't such a fan of the Pope afterall and causes Britain to leave the Catholic Church to form, in its stead, the Church of England.
Not exactly a one-to-one map, but close enough that the book I'm reading (on the Reformation- did you guess?) makes me think of the HH.

GFP


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

I can think of another way the horus heresy is related to the bible.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

King James II was a Catholic.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

He was, but it certainly wasn't popular with country. And with the continued threat (so it seemed) of possibly more (gasp) Catholics taking the Throne, we get the Glorious Revolution. So, if you give me an extra couple of centuries, and ignore what I said, I'm right! :fool:

GFP


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

This is just sad. 

Asking if the Horus Heresy is inspired by the fall of Lucifer is like asking if the sky is blue. Some things are to obvious to waste time talking about.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

GabrialSagan said:


> This is just sad.
> 
> Asking if the Horus Heresy is inspired by the fall of Lucifer is like asking if the sky is blue. Some things are to obvious to waste time talking about.


It's not that obvious if you don't know the story in the first place. 
I don't see anything wrong in laying down comparisons between the Imperium, a theocracy, and our present day religious writings and teachings.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I would sooner go see a Horus Heresy series of films than the books of the Bible turned into films...and I seriously doubt the majority of the world wouldn't rather see that too.


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## Firefighter X (Apr 21, 2010)

If you look into the fluff of the 40K universe it is GREATLY inspired by many world faiths, world cultures, and various mythological references.

During the time of the Great Crusade, The Emperor takes on the role of God. The primarchs those of the original prophets Moses, Abraham, Elijah, John the Baptist, etc etc...[ before Jesus arrived ]. Then later on the Emepror takes the Christ role himself and the primarchs slide into apostle roles.

The Heresy itself harkens back to the Fall of Lucifer. When he and a full 3rd of the Warhost of Heaven fell from grace.

Sanguinius sacrificed himself on the Warmasters battlebarge [ he knew he couldn't beat Horus ]. This is to me an homage to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. [ The Emperor still in God, The Vengeful Father mode here as well ]

Horus was the name of the Epyptian Sky God. [ Funny how Space Marines were described as " Sky People " on several primative planets, isn't it? ]

The Eldar runic carvings often use the wedjat " the eye of Horus "

The fluff behind the Eldar Gods seems to be a culmination of Greco-Roman and Nordic pantheons, with a mild sprinkling of the Egyptian for good measure.

The name Abaddon comes from the greek word/name Apollyon or the Hebrew word abhaddonon. Both of which mean desctruction, or a reference to a part of Hell [ Gehenna / Sheol ] . Abaddon's first name Ezekyle is a derivative of Ezekiel which translates to " God Strengthens ". Ezekiel was also a major prophet. [ foreshadowing here.. as Abaddon was a prophet of doom in the 40k universe, so to speak ]

The distrust of untrained psychers within the Imperium alludes to the Salem Witch Trials of early American history.

The Space Wolves are clearly inspired by the Teutonic & Nordic peoples and their fluff follows all prescribed tenets as such, including reference to a Valhalla-esque afterlife.

The White Scars are modeled after the Hunnic tribes and the warriors of the Steppes. A rich warrior culture with it's own ideas of a final resting place as well.

The Blood Angels practice insanguination rituals. Which references the Christian belief of being empowered, protected, covered by the Blood of Christ.

EARLY Dark Angels fluff depicted them as akin to the Native American Indians in practice and naming. [ Anyone remember Two-Heads Talking or am I dating myself here?] 

The Grey Knights have 666 ritual verses and prayers.

The Inquisition.... Really? Spanish Inquisition here. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

The Ecclesiarchy has Roman Catholic Church written all over it.

The 4 Chaos Gods are references to the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse as well as a condensed form of the 7 Deadly Sins.

Even in the 40K universe, Terra recognizes and still practices the sepration of Church and State. A current governmental trend across the world as we know it.

There are millions more references, I'm sure. But these are the most blaringly obvious to me.

Hope this helps, 

FFX.


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