# Horus Heresy list vs. 40k list



## Thomas Mondrup (Nov 25, 2008)

I have ordered the new Forge World book - Horus Heresy: Betrayal and looking wery much forward to receiving it.

The question goes however, how would you as a 40k player react, if you where to play against a list from the above mentioned book?

1. Would you say no: "I don't even want to try that"? 
2. Would you ban you opponent from using his/her Primarch?
3. Would you ban him/her from using super-heavies?
4. What about the changes to the FOC slots? Would he/she have to use the 40k FOC?
5. Something else you would demand before you would play the person. 

I think it would be good to hear the community's opinion on the subject, after all the game is way funnier when you have someone willing to play against and with you


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## Word Bearer 81007 (Aug 5, 2012)

I'm not to sure how the book is laid out for FOC or superheavies. obviously primarchs will have a super advantage but I don't see it being something that would prevent me from playing. In apocalpse games I have I have placed 3,000 points of orks on the table against a reaver titan and didn't think twice about it. In fact is was a great game, I lost violently, but still very fun. 

The only thing that I would be opposed too would be the fielding of superheavies in a normal game. The durablitiy of structure points versus standard vehicles with hull points is unbalanced at best. Though I do keep a baneblade in a locker for such moments in life.

I believe that if you were to explain were and how the differences in your heresy list vs. standard list would be to a player that player would be willing to give it a shot. You can always be cool about it and let the proxy in a primarch of there own using your book to counteract you bring a god for the lack of better terms.

Just don't play the noobs you may cause severe trauma to a person by smashing angron into his already this is all the models I owe to play list.


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## Sworn Radical (Mar 10, 2011)

Thomas Mondrup said:


> 1. Would you say no: "I don't even want to try that"?


Well no, why would I. As long as my opponent seems like a nice person to play against there's no reason to decline this particular challenge. Also, quite a few lists from regular 40k can easily lay waste to a Betrayal list.



> 2. Would you ban you opponent from using his/her Primarch?


A difficult subject really. The standard 40 codices have nothing comparable they could field in their place. But then again, it isn't even needed. The bigger the games points limit, the more heavy firepower will be avaiable to bring down a primarch. So, I'd prolly decline facing them in a game of 2.000 pts., but considering larger games or even Apocalypse their respective prowess should become more or less diminished.



> 3. Would you ban him/her from using super-heavies?


Betrayal let's you bring 'Super Heavies' to the table in games that are clearly not Apocalypse per se. For example, it's perfectly possible to integrate a SH into a list of 2.000 points. For fairness sake, I'd ask my opponent to only bring them in games of Apocalypse size (3.000+ pts.). Then everything should be fine, really.



> 4. What about the changes to the FOC slots? Would he/she have to use the 40k FOC?


I'd politely ask my opponent to use the standard 40k FOC when facing 40k armies.



> 5. Something else you would demand before you would play the person.


Beer.

No really. If both players are in the mood for a mixed game of HH / 40k then who's going to stop you ? Of course, it's perfectly possible for situations to arise that'd need a house rule or two, but for a friendly game it should be fine.
The only place I probably wouldn't like to see HH lists would be at a tournament I guess, if only for the confussion that would follow for some people. Speaking of which ... a HH only tourney could be nice though ...


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

The list is very different to a standard 40k marine list.


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## Thomas Mondrup (Nov 25, 2008)

Word Bearer 81007 and Sworn Radical thanks for your opinions on the subject.
Regarding the Primarch's point wise, they are around 400-500 points each and can only be field in a army of around 2000 points or more.
For 500 points you get close to 100 IG troopers or 3 LMRBT, wouldn't that be fair against a Primarch?
Regarding the Super-heavies I understand why you don't want to play against them in normal games.

Ps. Words_of_Truth, why are you posting this? Please write your opinion on the subject instead, I would very much like to hear it.

Regards
Thomas MP


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

I'd be happy to play a regular 40k game against heresy era, I mean orks, eldar, and possibly necrons were all doing well for themselves, only fair to play against the xenos

Lords of War choices should be apoc only though

My book will hopefully arrive this friday or next monday so that may change my perception


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I posted because they are deliberately at a different scale, the 30k army is based on legion organisation while 40k is a lot smaller. I don't think it would be balanced, it's like using a an apocalypse army vs a normal 40k army.

I have the book btw.


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## Lord Commander Solus (Jul 26, 2012)

Thomas Mondrup said:


> 1. Would you say no: "I don't even want to try that"?


Absolutely not. Anybody who stops you from playing your army is being ridiculous; it'd be like refusing to play a Necron player, or a Grey Knight player, because you don't like the army. This is *not* Apocalypse, it's a new army list.



> 2. Would you ban you opponent from using his/her Primarch?


I personally wouldn't. However, it would be nice if my opponent at least offered a choice; a Primarch list or a non-Primarch list. I would offer the same (once my army comes together!). Primarchs are already restricted in their use, however; they can't be more than 25% of the army, and they're very expensive. I say this is enough of a restriction without having touchy opponents.



> 3. Would you ban him/her from using super-heavies?


Again, personally I would love to face a Reaver Titan. I think any opponent who denies you from using your £500 model is a total dick. I can understand some people might be adverse to, say, a powerful Baneblade equivalent, but I wouldn't have any problems. 



> 4. What about the changes to the FOC slots? Would he/she have to use the 40k FOC?


I would let my opponent use whatever, but I can see why some people don't want to face 4 Elites in <2000pts. That's why I personally will be sticking to 40k FOC even when playing a 30k list.



> 5. Something else you would demand before you would play the person.


I'd ask that they explain what every unit is, and what it does. I would extend the same courtesy with my own army; I'd do this for every game, not just those against 30k lists. It's just polite!


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

From what I've heard though legion forces are far less tactically flexible than codex marines. so its like playing powered armoured eldar lists 

Primarchs are not that pricey if you think about it <2000pts slightly tricky but 2000 and more easy fit, the can easily mulch any elite unit to earn points back, plus their army wide improvements, seem reasonable value to me


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## Deneris (Jul 23, 2008)

Thomas Mondrup said:


> I have ordered the new Forge World book - Horus Heresy: Betrayal and looking wery much forward to receiving it.
> 
> The question goes however, how would you as a 40k player react, if you where to play against a list from the above mentioned book?
> 
> 1. Would you say no: "I don't even want to try that"?


Wouldn't mind at all. always fun playing against "new" armies.



> 2. Would you ban you opponent from using his/her Primarch?


Nope... Necrons have enough nasty surprises to deal with army-eaters like a Primarch.



> 3. Would you ban him/her from using super-heavies?


See "nasty surprises", above. And I could always bring a Pylon...



> 4. What about the changes to the FOC slots? Would he/she have to use the 40k FOC?


I'd have to work it out in advance withe the HH player, but I'm sure he could still use his FOC.



> 5. Something else you would demand before you would play the person.


That everyone have fun?



> I think it would be good to hear the community's opinion on the subject, after all the game is way funnier when you have someone willing to play against and with you


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

To clarify for folks:

I've had a chance to read the book in brief (I plan on getting my own copy either this payday or next) and there is a seperate Force Org slot for Super Heavies and Primarchs called the Lords of War. I'm going to quote the book directly on how it works:



Horus Heresy Betrayal pg 184 said:


> *Lords of War and their Availability*
> In a battle of 2,000 points or more, a single Lord of War choice is available to an army, which must be bought from the army's points total as normal, and may not make up more than 25% of the army's total points cost.
> 
> The Lords of War choices eligible for the Crusade Space Marine Legion list found in this book are as follows:
> ...


Now I'm not 100% on this but I think the Primarch takes the Allied slot instead of the Lords of War slot, but is only available in the 2K+ range.

Either way, I could deal with playing fun games against this. If you brought it to a 2K tournament though I'd say no "Lords of War" options just to keep it fair with other people as prizes and/or money is on the line.

Actually depending on how rules look for other legions down the line I might start a Legion as there is a lot of neat ideas there and nothing really feels overpowered. I'm looking forward to seeing how it all pays off in the long run.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I'd let them use it as long as they didn't take a Primarch or super heavies. Those units belong in apocalypse or campaign/ narrative games. 

I'd let him use the altered foc (it has an extra HQ and elites slot) as they can't take the usual range of allies so having those two extra slots, which another army could get via allies seems fair.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Rems said:


> I'd let them use it as long as they didn't take a Primarch or super heavies. Those units belong in apocalypse or campaign/ narrative games.
> 
> I'd let him use the altered foc (it has an extra HQ and elites slot) as they can't take the usual range of allies so having those two extra slots, which another army could get via allies seems fair.


So they do! I didn't even notice it. And now that I look at it again...the Primarchs take an HQ slot ("Primary Detachment"). They threw me off by using the word "Detachment". >>


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## Lord Commander Solus (Jul 26, 2012)

Zion said:


> So they do! I didn't even notice it. And now that I look at it again...the Primarchs take an HQ slot ("Primary Detachment"). They threw me off by using the word "Detachment". >>


Don't the Primarchs just take a "Lord of War" slot? I'm sure I saw a "screenshot" where it had a FOC, with all the HQ, Troop etc., then the Fortification, then the Lord of War next to the Fortification. It's like Fortifications don't take up Heavy slots or anything, just like a Primarch surely doesn't take an HQ; it just takes the Lord of War slot?

I haven't got the book so I could be completely wrong, but that was my understanding from the picture.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I posted because they are deliberately at a different scale, the 30k army is based on legion organisation while 40k is a lot smaller. I don't think it would be balanced, it's like using a an apocalypse army vs a normal 40k army.
> 
> I have the book btw.


Yes, they are deliberately a different scale, but they arent pointed differently. The marines in the book are given a points value along the same lines as every 40K army.

So while the book is geared to letting you play 3000+ point armies with primarches and super heavies, it doesnt do this buy making everything half the price.

And, whats the difference between a 40K army and an apoc army? Surely its just the points value of the game (and including super heavies). So taking a 40K army against an Apoc army is just like picking a very very big 40K army and a very very big 40K army with super heavies, so say no superheavies and no primarches in the 30K army list and all is good surely?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I dunno, squads of 20 marines, that can fire double at the same range for 40 bolter shots may be a bit over the top. A unit of 10 melta/plasma/flamers/rotor cannon/volkite caliver who don't take up any slot on the force organisation chart, may be a bit over the top.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I dunno, squads of 20 marines, that can fire double at the same range for 40 bolter shots may be a bit over the top. A unit of 10 melta/plasma/flamers/rotor cannon/volkite caliver who don't take up any slot on the force organisation chart, may be a bit over the top.


But that squad of 20 marines only has bolters. No heavies, no special weapons at all.

The tactical support squad DOES tale up a slot in the formation chart, it just cant be used as a compulsory. And do you realise how many points those squads are? You are talking over 300 points for a full squad with melta guns for 10 marines with a 3+ save.

You can get 10 fire dragons and a wave serpent with twin linked star cannons for that amount! But I dont hear anyone complaining that the eldar list is broken (in fact the melta guns themselves are almost the same price as a fire dragon!)


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm not complaining, I wouldn't be against anyone using the list, I just happen to think it's over the top and a bit unbalanced, it is a space marine army after all and is a lot stronger than the basic codex which is already quite good.

It's not actually over 300 points for 10 marines with 10 meltaguns it's 250 without upgrading the sergeant who if you want can have around 50 points of upgrades and only then will it reach and potentially pass 300 points. The normal tactical squad is the same as well. I misread the Support Squad rule.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

No, it really is over 300 points for 10 of them. The initial squad is only 5 strong. You forgot to add on the extra cost of 5 extra marines.

Im just trying to work out how its unbalanced? How can it be unbalanced to cost more than 10 fire dragons in a waveserpent to get 10 marines with weapons they wont be able to use until turn 2+ unless they buy a transport and get even more expensive.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

No I really did not, I added it all up correctly.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> No I really did not, I added it all up correctly.


never mind


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

You know what I did forget to add, the additional 5 melta guns for the 5 marines you already get lol my bad. >.<

Anyway, I'm not saying it's massively imbalanced and since I've not played against or with it my views are just off what I've read.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> You know what I did forget to add, the additional 5 melta guns for the 5 marines you already get lol my bad. >.<
> 
> Anyway, I'm not saying it's massively imbalanced and since I've not played against or with it my views are just off what I've read.


HAHA

When you say what you've 'read' do you mean the book itself, or other peoples views on it? Because if I believed half of what ive read about it then I would believe that Horus can shoot multimeltas out of his *** and terminators have a 1+ invulnerable save re-rolling or other such nonsence. 

Its got a few nasty things in it (spartan), the units are very expensive up front and get cheaper as you add more to it and it has a few broken things (character in cataphract armour giving slow and purposeful to a squad of lascannon devastators...)

Other than that, its certainly not more cheesy than the grey knight or space wolf codexes, and if you play games under 2000 pts all the potentially iffy things go away.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I have the book, I got it at Games day. 

It's not cheesy, it's just a lot more powerful than normal marines, such as the 40 shots at the sake of not being able to move or go on overwatch heavy bolter jetbikes, additional tanks, contemptors, it's codex marines but on steroids. 

It's designed to go toe to toe with other legion lists imo, it would make mince meat of anything not with a 3+ save.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Lord Commander Solus said:


> Don't the Primarchs just take a "Lord of War" slot? I'm sure I saw a "screenshot" where it had a FOC, with all the HQ, Troop etc., then the Fortification, then the Lord of War next to the Fortification. It's like Fortifications don't take up Heavy slots or anything, just like a Primarch surely doesn't take an HQ; it just takes the Lord of War slot?
> 
> I haven't got the book so I could be completely wrong, but that was my understanding from the picture.


Honestly at this point I'm not 100% sure. It says the Primarch is taken as the force's primary detachment, and without having the book in front of me I'm not sure until I can look at the Primarch's entries (as the cover World Eaters, Death Guard, Emperor's Children and the Sons of Horus in the book) to know for sure. That wording in that paticular rule seems off, but I'm sure if you look at the book as a whole it makes sense.

TL;DR: I'm probably an idiot who missed something.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

It says you can have a single lord of war slot if you're having a game with 2000 points or more, it becomes the primary armies warlord which is it's HQ (which is how I interpreted it). You can't spend more than 25% of the army on a warlord option.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> It says you can have a single lord of war slot if you're having a game with 2000 points or more, it becomes the primary armies warlord which is it's HQ (which is how I interpreted it). You can't spend more than 25% of the army on a warlord option.


Do the Primarchs count as HQs in their unit entries?


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I have the book, I got it at Games day.
> 
> It's not cheesy, it's just a lot more powerful than normal marines, such as the 40 shots at the sake of not being able to move or go on overwatch heavy bolter jetbikes, additional tanks, contemptors, it's codex marines but on steroids.
> 
> It's designed to go toe to toe with other legion lists imo, it would make mince meat of anything not with a 3+ save.


I completely disagree. Guard armies would be utterly laughing at bunched up 3+ saves. Can you imagine the carnage of a leman russ pointing a battle cannon at that mass?

Any why are heavy bolter jetbikes crazy, but shuriken cannon jetbikes are just fine?

The contemptors are considered over priced and appart from the spartan which is needed for 20 man units the additional tanks arent any good until you get to the lords of war section.




Zion said:


> Do the Primarchs count as HQs in their unit entries?


No.

they are listed solely as a lord of war which has its own slot in the force organisation table. Totally separated from an allied detachment.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Maidel said:


> Zion said:
> 
> 
> > Do the Primarchs count as HQs in their unit entries?
> ...


Thanks for clearing that up. My brain wasn't cooperating on me. 

In all honestly I still say the book looks pretty balanced (especially if you restrict it to standard 40K FOC when not playing a Heresy Scenario game) and I wouldn't mind playing against it.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Maidel said:


> I completely disagree. Guard armies would be utterly laughing at bunched up 3+ saves. Can you imagine the carnage of a leman russ pointing a battle cannon at that mass?
> 
> Any why are heavy bolter jetbikes crazy, but shuriken cannon jetbikes are just fine?
> 
> The contemptors are considered over priced and appart from the spartan which is needed for 20 man units the additional tanks arent any good until you get to the lords of war section.


Volkite weapons could potentially destroy a squad a turn. Legions can also have basilisks and medusas, and rapier batteries which count as elites for some reason and they can have quad mortars or graviton cannons. As to the jetbikes and heavy bolters, they all by default have heavy bolters, it's not an upgrade it's the basic weaponry.

Or the the Moritat Centurion who keeps firing until he misses. I'm not saying it's crazy I'm saying the list is a lot stronger than the codex list and if the codex list is already hard to fight then this one will definitely be.

They have everything good that the guard have and more.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Volkite weapons could potentially destroy a squad a turn.


While they do generate extra wounds (is it rolls? or auto-wounds? I forget as I don't have the book on hand) for every unsaved wound, those new wounds allow armor saves and don't say anything about generating more wounds. It's less cheesy than Blood Talons, costs an arm and a leg, and is realistically no more lethal than any other good round of shooting.



Words_of_Truth said:


> Legions can also have basilisks and medusas, and rapier batteries which count as elites for some reason and they can have quad mortars or graviton cannons.


All things that take up slots, and cost points. And it's not like these things can't be killed or countered. 



Words_of_Truth said:


> Or the the Moritat Centurion who keeps firing until he misses. I'm not saying it's crazy I'm saying the list is a lot stronger than the codex list and if the codex list is already hard to fight then this one will definitely be.


I'd have to look at the exact wording on the rule, and his points cost before I called it, but I can't imagine it'd be cheap. Also I'd love to see the look on someone's face that turn the first roll to hit they make is a 1. :biggrin:



Words_of_Truth said:


> They have everything good that the guard have and more.


They don't have giant masses of bodies, the ability to spam large blast templates that hit from across the _room_ or orders. They're not exactly cheap on points, only wear power armor (which a lot of large blast templates mock because they come in AP2 or better) and the Terminators are pretty expensive too. Also I don't think I saw any Drop Pods for any of the Marines to deploy with.

And someone may need to double check for this, but I don't remember seeing ATSKNF on these Legion Marines.

EDIT:
Jetbikes get one 1 Heavy for every 3 Jetbikes if IIRC. They're also pretty expensive for 3 models with no options to start with. I'm pretty sure if you compared the cost of these Jetbikes to other army's jetbikes at a base cost the Marines get less for the same or more in terms of how much they cost.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Volkite weapons could potentially destroy a squad a turn. Legions can also have basilisks and medusas, and rapier batteries which count as elites for some reason and they can have quad mortars or graviton cannons. As to the jetbikes and heavy bolters, they all by default have heavy bolters, it's not an upgrade it's the basic weaponry.
> 
> Or the the Moritat Centurion who keeps firing until he misses. I'm not saying it's crazy I'm saying the list is a lot stronger than the codex list and if the codex list is already hard to fight then this one will definitely be.
> 
> They have everything good that the guard have and more.


You keep telling me its not cheesy, but then keep saying the opposite. Im getting mixed messages here...

There are masses of things in all armies that can destroy a squad in 1 turn, and using the right squad on the right target without getting it killed is a skill and not an expected event. Its like the melta guns, you need to get 300+ points into range without anyone dying and then killing the unit and not getting killed in return. 250/300 pts is 1/5th of an entire 1500pt army. Killing 1 unit and then getting wasted the next turn means that they probably didnt even make their own points back.

Ive got no idea how you are comparing them to guard. A 10 man guard squad is about 60 points, 100 with all the trimmings. You can make a full platoon with support for less than a 20 man marine squad.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

The moriat ability is called chain fire. For every successful hit they may make an immediate additional shooting attack with the weapon against the same target and may continue doing so until they with the weapon, but may not assault in that phase or shoot in the following phase. 

The Volkite weapons are AP 5 so if they hit and wound they automatically hit again and will probably automatically kill again because they are either strength 5 or 6.

Medusa with Phosphex shell, ordinance weapon which can be moved 2" freely when it lands and turns the area it hits into dangerous terrain for rest of the game. They have a lot of template weapons strength 5 ap 2. Pretty accurate ordinance there. They have the traditional vindicator as well. Most tanks can have havoc launchers as pintled mounted weapons or heavy flamers, including Rhinos.

If you want you can have an apothecary in every squad, the Caestus assault ram is like a flying predator that can still ram, all the different land raider types, all the different predators with plasma destroyers, magna melta cannons etc, storm eagle assault gunship and they can have drop pods, imagine dropping some support squads all with flamers which they get for free directly into the guardsmen line. 

There's just a lot of stuff they can have and a lot of things they can do and they can have it in quantity.

Edit: Jetbikes come with heavy bolters by default and for every 3 you can upgrade it to a plasma cannon, multi melta or a volkite culvarin.



Maidel said:


> You keep telling me its not cheesy, but then keep saying the opposite. Im getting mixed messages here...
> 
> There are masses of things in all armies that can destroy a squad in 1 turn, and using the right squad on the right target without getting it killed is a skill and not an expected event. Its like the melta guns, you need to get 300+ points into range without anyone dying and then killing the unit and not getting killed in return. 250/300 pts is 1/5th of an entire 1500pt army. Killing 1 unit and then getting wasted the next turn means that they probably didnt even make their own points back.
> 
> Ive got no idea how you are comparing them to guard. A 10 man guard squad is about 60 points, 100 with all the trimmings. You can make a full platoon with support for less than a 20 man marine squad.


Well it has some cheesy rules like the Moriat, but on the whole it's just a lot more powerful in terms of weapons and their concentrations and the options. I think Zion talked about Imperial Guard so thats how I got onto it.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> There's just a lot of stuff they can have and a lot of things they can do and they can have it in quantity.


Theres one really important thing you arent mentioning.

The cost. None of that stuff is cheap. In a 1500-1999 pt army you arent getting any of the super heavies and most of things you have mentioned are 1/5-1/6th of the entire army.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Well you can have a cerberus heavy tank destroyer, a malcador assault tank, a typhon heavy siege tank. You could have a 135 point squad in a drop pod with 5 flamers that could wipe out weekly armoured units. 

You could have a Spartan with 20 marines or 19 marines and a commander in it that you couldn't possible destroy before it go to you and then you'd have 20 marines in your deployment zone and that would only cost around 600 points combine the spartan with the legion squad. Or you could have a storm eagle doing the same thing but in the air and unless you have some good anti air that's going to be a problem and that's cheaper than a spartan. Could even have Horus.

This is not including the Warlord traits and the chapter specific rules as well.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

600 points is an enormous part of the army. You take 600 points of ANY army and look at what it can do and then compare it.

That 5 man squad only has 4 flamers by default and it cant even have a drop pod unless you have the correct rite of war.

You cant have Horus unless you are playing over 2000 points, and even then you are using ONE QUARTER of your points on 1 model.


Honestly you sound just like a politician who is decrying all the bad points of the oppositions policies without actually mentioning anything remotely good about it.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> The moriat ability is called chain fire. For every successful hit they may make an immediate additional shooting attack with the weapon against the same target and may continue doing so until they with the weapon, but may not assault in that phase or shoot in the following phase.


So basically a boosted version of Blade Storm but with the chance of your dice screwing you over.



Words_of_Truth said:


> The Volkite weapons are AP 5 so if they hit and wound they automatically hit again and will probably automatically kill again because they are either strength 5 or 6.


The second hit doesn't auto-kill and allows armor saves, which means that second hit is in effect AP-. Assuming it'll auto-kill is just silly and the sign of bad math.



Words_of_Truth said:


> Medusa with Phosphex shell, ordinance weapon which can be moved 2" freely when it lands and turns the area it hits into dangerous terrain for rest of the game. They have a lot of template weapons strength 5 ap 2. Pretty accurate ordinance there. They have the traditional vindicator as well. Most tanks can have havoc launchers as pintled mounted weapons or heavy flamers, including Rhinos.


Havoc Launchers are available in the CSM codex, does that make them overpowered? No. Immolators have TL Heavy Flamers but they're not overpowered either. Infact it's even easier to knock weapons off tanks these days, and from playing Sisters I know that Heavy Flamers aren't cheap (anywhere from 15-20 points, and unless you're a walker or a unit inside of a transport (that has fire points) you can't overwatch with them).

Ordinance has gotten a lot better for sniping. There were at least four or five dozen threads and articles I read about how great it is to use it for sniping characters with it.

S5, AP2 only wounds T3 on 2s, T4 on 3s and then it goes from 4-6+ from there. It's not a real threat to vehicles (except the AV10 kind since they can actually be penned), and with good spacing, pre-measuring (which is legal) and sense to shoot that weapon off first (which they did NOT get for free). Tactics beat toys.



Words_of_Truth said:


> If you want you can have an apothecary in every squad,


Blood Angels already do that with priests.



Words_of_Truth said:


> the Caestus assault ram is like a flying predator that can still ram,


It's been around for a while now and while cool, it's points heavy and IIRC the ramming rule is it's big "trick". I think that's actually all it does (other than acting as a flying transport).



Words_of_Truth said:


> all the different land raider types,


Nothing new here. Land Raiders still die the same, and the varients pay for their toys.



Words_of_Truth said:


> all the different predators with plasma destroyers,


Plasma still Gets Hot! and even if it has stuff that doesn't, it's a PREDATOR. Giving it Plasma (which is weaker than a Lascannon in terms of what it can kill on a 2+) doesn't suddenly turn it into a titan. Still AV13/11/10. Shoot it in the sides or back.



Words_of_Truth said:


> magna melta cannons etc,


Actually don't know much about this weapon, but knowing FW it's been around for a while. Unless it's a D Weapon, I don't really think this is some magic bullet that really changes the game. 



Words_of_Truth said:


> storm eagle assault gunship


Nothing new, and honestly not that impressive.



Words_of_Truth said:


> and they can have drop pods,


Oh no, Marines with Drop Pods. What will we ever do against them?*/sarcasm*

I don't recall standard Drop Pods for the Marines, but even then, it's JUST a Drop Pod.



Words_of_Truth said:


> imagine dropping some support squads all with flamers which they get for free directly into the guardsmen line.


So they have to rely on scatter, not mishapping off the table, and having room to land AND be effective?

So when they've killed the Guard Squad that costs 1/4 what they did the rest of the army kills that squad dead. That's how it goes now if you did it with Sternguard with combi-flamers. I don't see a change in the future.



Words_of_Truth said:


> There's just a lot of stuff they can have and a lot of things they can do and they can have it in quantity.


They have options. Most of these are expensive (and albiet neat) toys. Anything you claim can to be broken I can see ways around through being a better player.

Really you just sound like everyone who has ever cried that FW only makes cheese and claims they don't produce interesting or balanced things. 

There is NOTHING in that book (in a normal game) that would 1 turn, or even 3 turn wipe an army without a competent player and some good rolls behind it. Just like any other army. Plenty of toys, but it's too easy to over spend or put all your eggs in one basket.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Tbh, I never claimed it was cheese, I never claimed it was wrong, I never claimed I wouldn't play anyone with the army, I never claimed anything negative, I only said it's a lot more powerful than a standard space marine army, you say you can point out reasons for everything I said, of course you can you just quoted like 3 or 4 different codices, this is one army list with access to items and war machines from several codices. You can essentially cherry pick things from nearly all the loyalist codices and include it in this army.

Why do you keep thinking that I'm against the list, all I said was that this list isn't on the same scale as a normal 40k codex, it has a lot more options and no where did I say it would wipe an army out on the first turn, what would the point be.

I love the list it has lots of theme to it and it's what a legion list should be like, I'm going to be doing one myself, potentially Imperial Fists but I'm waiting for all the books to come out for I get on with it because I don't want to change my mind all the time 

I love Forgeworld stuff, I don't play much, actually I don't at all due to medical reasons, I enjoy painting and reading about them and all I thought I'd do was to put forward the idea that this list is for a legion, every other official codex is usually based on a small force.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> and all I thought I'd do was to put forward the idea that this list is for a legion, every other official codex is usually based on a small force.


Which is very true, but I think you are missing that it all scales. If you have a low point count then its for a small force, even though the list lets you build a large force.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

So just for fun:

Vanilla Tactical Squad 170 points for 10, free Flamer/Missile Launcher, ATSKNF.

Legion Tactical Squad 150, can't take special or heavy weapons, can always regroup regardless of how small the unit is (basically a weaker version of ATSKNF, legion specific lists add extra rules. Can fire 2x in the same shooting phase against the same target, but can't overwatch or shoot in their next player turn (only Bolters and Bolt Pistols can do this, and only the Bolter portion of a combi-weapon can do this). They can't do this if they've deep struck, disembarked from a vehicle OR moved that turn. Only the Death Guard are immune to fear.

So for 20 less points the unit loses special weapons, heavy weapons (the SGT can still get toys of course), has no rules that prevent them from being overrun when they lose combat, and only gets access to a Rhino.

For the Legion Tactical Support Squad (the one that gets "free flamers") you pay 175 for 10 before upgrades, and innately only gets a Rhino. And they can't fill the mandatory Troops slots.

Drop Pods and Dreadclaws (Sons of Horus only) are incredibly unit specific and only are available in mostly Elites units. 

So that's one complaint down. Legion Tacticals trade options for points, can be swept when they lose combat (and run down), only get access to a Rhino and even their bonus ability to shoot twice requires them to sit still, not have deep struck, not disembarked and keeps them from overwatching or shooting the next turn (and they need at least 5 bolt pistols and or bolters), and the support squads aren't bad, but you need to take two other troop choices first.


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## Creator of Chaos (Feb 8, 2012)

Thomas Mondrup said:


> 1. Would you say no: "I don't even want to try that"?
> 2. Would you ban you opponent from using his/her Primarch?
> 3. Would you ban him/her from using super-heavies?
> 4. What about the changes to the FOC slots? Would he/she have to use the 40k FOC?
> 5. Something else you would demand before you would play the person.


 
1. I would be more then willing to do it. Necrons are actually a comparable match up against heresy armies due to our sheer resiliance and game-breaking combo's. Vechiles are of little issue and all the tricks our royal court brings make us more then a match for some of the legions rules. I look foward to it

2. No I would not ban an oppenent from using a primarch. Unlike other armies we actually have units that can go 1 on 1 with primarchs and win. I'm talking Properly kitted out overlords (Phase shifter, Weave, Mind Shackle Scarabs, Res Orb, Warscythe) and the Ctan. Both the units thanks to a combination of Sheer Resiliance and an ability to still would a primarch on a 3+, 4+ or 5+ is whats defining here. Plus bonus like mind-shackle scarabs or the AP1 explosion can completly screw over a primarch.

That said If I was using any-other army It would be apocalypse only as I have yet to find a single non-necron unit capable of besting a primarch without massed shooting

3. Super-heavies I would only allow in apocalypse as necrons dont have a comparable 1 yet and the pylon is a sitting duck. If and when we get 1 I'll say yes

4. Yes it would be 40k Force organisation. If the heresy books ever did a heresy era necron army led by trayzyn I would consider using a heresy force org but at this stage heresy armies are built to be playd by space marines and Guard. 

5. I would demand to the chance to read and study the heresy book before I play. after that I'm more then willing as long as the above is met. You can have your primarchs and your heresy rule but you must use force org and you can use super heavies unless its apocalypse

Overall I have littlee problem with primarchs or heresy armies as a necron player as long as they conform 40k


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