# It's unstoppable!



## Daemonetteboobs (May 31, 2010)

My friend's order just came in from wayland games and over the course of the weekend we played 4 games. I've got to say that the hardest hitting unit I have ever encountered is Logan Grimnar accompanied by 7 thunder hammer storm shield terminators coming out of a Crusader. It's absolute madness! That unit alone has won him 3 of the 4 games. I tried stopping the Crusader before it could deploy it's ravenous payload; really tough with av 14. I've tried tempting him with some lesser units then jumping in a ton of berzerker squads, he wiped them off the board like they were flies on a windshield. Then, I tried avoiding it altogether in a 2500 point kill point mission but they kept finding their way into combat and picked up 3 kp's alone. It's like an atomic bomb I have no idea what to do!


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Fight Fire with Fire.

Either, grab abbadon with some Tzneetch terminator mates all with Lightning claws.

OR

Dual lash and plasma cannon him to hell.


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## Arbite (Jan 1, 2010)

Melta the crap out of the land raider. Or lascannon.
Then try and hit them with some ap2/ap1 stuff, it will double the chance of him failing his armour saves.

If all else fails, tarpit.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

He is a CSM player. Tarpitting isn't an option for him.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

Assault Termies with SS/TH are a huge pain for me as well. I'm yet to find an effective counter: they can demolish Plague Marines as if they were a tau gunline, survive even spot-on plasma cannon blasts from my Oblits without issue, stun-crush vehicles...and having Logan with them just makes it even dicier. 

They really should make Storm shields a 4+ save. There's a reason no one bothers with shooty termies anymore.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

If you want to be a ass the best way to stop him would be to run a sacrificial unit of chosen up in a rhino move up 11 jump out blow up his landraider then use a character with lash to constantly move him back 6 inches well you slowly pick of his terminators. Oh if he takes a librarian take two lash characters, since at least one lash will get through a turn that way.

Seriously the set up is around 100 pts cheaper then what he is bringing, and more then likely your lash characters will survive the whole encounter. Last tournament I was at I did the same thing to someone using SH/TH terminators in a crusader, and they never even reached combat (Mind you instead of a sacrificial unit I just busted the crusader with 4 laz cannons, but still the principal is the same.)


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## Daemonetteboobs (May 31, 2010)

I've thus far been vehemently opposed to running dual lash in my friendly games but I might just have to try it to deal with that unit.


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## Jono (Feb 2, 2010)

Thats one serious death star unit... but with that many points in one CC unit, my best advice would be to bust the LR then just ignore the contents. That many points in one place must mean the rest of his army suffers in a particular area, which you should exploit.


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## Platton725 (Apr 19, 2010)

You could try 20 Possessed with MoK :laugh:

They're fearless and barring any horrible dice accidents should grind the termies down  (if you don't roll rending or power weapons that is. If you do, you're golden).


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## elkhantar (Nov 14, 2008)

I don't think 20 possessed is a good idea at all. I don't think they'll last more than two assault phases (3 at most) vs Hammernators. And you have to pop the LR open first.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Dual Lash-Obliterators . The problem that unit has is it's too killy, it will obliterate anything that it touches. So try to take down the LR, if you don't then don't sweat it, it will pop out and wipe out a unit. Then you lash it backwards and plasma cannon it. Just keep lashing it away and hitting it and it will eventually go down. If you manage to Lash them back into a nice ball, 3 Obliterators will kill on average 3 of them with plasma cannons. If you don't pew pew them just keep lashing them backwards. 

Aramoro


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## Platton725 (Apr 19, 2010)

elkhantar said:


> I don't think 20 possessed is a good idea at all. I don't think they'll last more than two assault phases (3 at most) vs Hammernators. And you have to pop the LR open first.


No, was mostly for laughs . Though 20 possessed with MoK will make a dent in the Wolf Guard even if they get charged. Will die though, forgot to take preferred enemy into account.

How about double nurgle sorcerers on bike/DPs with wings, and turn Logan into a Spawn? 

Just need to tie him up with something... :suicide::mrgreen:

Also, how many Berzerkers did you throw at him? 8 won't cut it but 2x8 charging zerkers really should put the hurt on that unit before it can strike.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I've just noticed, if my maths is right that unit is 966 points with the LR assuming it has no upgrades. Thats pretty hefty. 

Aramoro


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Na bring in da Ork WAAAGGHH!!! Use the Speed Freaks mixed with Thraka for power and the horde will run anything over in a tide of Green.


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## Bloodcuddler of Khorne (Mar 22, 2010)

An idea I've never tried, but something that might work.

If you take turns setting up terrain, try to get a nice, tall building in your deployment zone and put a bunch of Noise Marines on it all with sonic blasters and a blastmaster, and two units of Chosen with 4 meltaguns, a lascannon, an icon and a champion infiltrated somewhere far enough up to pose a threat to him, but far enough away that only one of them can be assaulted by those big nasties, and close enough that once he does he'll be in Sonic Blaster range. 

The chosen should be too much of a threat to ignore, especially if you take a Greater Daemon that can pop out of one of those champions. He'll obliterate one Chosen unit, and you can use the other to try and melta down the land raider (or lascannon it if not in range) while the noise marines shoot the termies.

Just a thought, never tested it.


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## bishop5 (Jan 28, 2008)

As many have said, popping the Raider early is the most important thing you can do - unfortunately it's not that easy with CSM from range.

Other than that, I would suggest just bolters - save the ap1/ap2 weapons for his normal marines in the open.
After you've wiped out their support units they should be much less threatening then hit them with everything.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Here are some fun ideas if you want to simply pop the raider from far off so you don't have to take lash.

1. suicide terminators (5 - combi meltas) -unrealiable.
2. 2X5 raptor squads with two meltas each.
3. chosen with 4 melta guns (set them up so they can either move up, and hit the tank next turn or set up a trap where you can intercept the raider)
4. 2 oblitorators (Multi melta) - either deep strike them in or just walk them far enough ahead that they will be able to hit the tank when it reaches the half way mark.

Or better yet just have expendable units at the front, and put havocs/chosen with plasma guns in the back to wait for them to reach your lines.


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## Lopspoon (Jun 23, 2009)

What about this?
Total 745, thats less than the 966 that Aramoro said the terminators will cost

2x
Daemon Prince - 310
Wings, MoS, LoS

3x Vindicator 435
- Deamon Possession

Bunch up the terminators with the deamon princes, you have 2 so you should be able to get one past their psychic defense.


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## SHarrington (Jan 7, 2010)

I hate to say this, but Dual Lash is nearly non-effective on Logan's Unit.

Everytime I see it run, it has Arjac in it as well.

Both Logan and Arjac have a 5+ invul vs psychics. Each. And both can be taken against each power. (Wolf talisman thingy)
If I need to roll a 5+ on one dice and you give me 2 dice to do it with, I'm going to do it more often then not.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Arjac doesn't have a Wolftail Talisman, and if you did take him you're pushing your unit cost to over 1000 points. So you get a 5+ chance to negate it, thats why you need Dual Lash. 

Aramoro


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## Funkadacious (Jun 5, 2010)

Termies with Storm Shields all have 3+ invuln saves... hence difficulty wounding them with anything...

Do Chaos have any weapons that ignore invuln saves? If so, I'd say use it... AP won't help if their invuln save is the same as marine power-armour...


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

AP does help against Storm Shield Termies, AP2 effectively doubles your chance of killing one. It take 12 hits with Bolters to score 1 wound, but only 6 Plasma Gun hits will score 1 wound. Now obviously lots of low AP shots are harder to come by but they are still useful. 

Aramoro


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Vindicators I have found to be more effective agaisnt deathstar units like this, main reasons are large blasts and str. 10. 3 of them can take out the crusader with relative ease. main problem is that they're in range of the multimelta and assault cannon. but with 3 str. 10 shots hitting it it's gonna lose one of those when they hit.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

well considering these are TH/SS termies, dont worry about ranged weapons, i would do what has already been mentioned. 3 vindies will destroy the raider with relative ease, but they will also help annihilate the contents. 3 pie plates , so it is almost certain that 1 will direct hit the terminators, and it should kill at least 2 of them, considering it wounds on 2+, and they need 3+ to save, so 2-3 should die from each. logan is an eternal warrior, as is arjac, and they will soak up wounds. really, once the raider is opened up, bring in lots of rapid fire weapons, lash princes and, despite their shittiness, some spawn to tie them up in combat for a turn.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Frag Missiles are pretty good, just gotta fire 4 at a time :biggrin:. Alternatively, although it sounds weird and is very rsiky, use lash to bring them _closer_ to you. Rapid fire death from Boltguns/Sonics, and then Lash 'em backwards. if you can get them taking dangerous terrain tests by lahing them into cover, great. If you can keep them in that cover e.g. moving slowly by lashing, another great.

Midnight


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Pop the Raider. Step one. Step 2, Volume of fire. It's half his army! Just focus everything on the walking termies, and they'll slowly melt away. Also, try the Slaneesh Daemon Weapon. After all, it's ID if you fail a wound. And you go first! That's all I've got.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I would just take out the other half of the army first. Since 2/3 of missions involve objectives if his troops get wiped out (apart from Logan and co) then he will struggle to win.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Why not take a unit of Slaneesh terminators in a LR. Make all but 1 champions /w lightning claws. Give the standard bearer LC's as well.

Thats a whole crapload of attacks with rerolls to wound at a better INI than that of the wolf guard. If my maths right, this should kill 5.13 terminators - more than enough to cripple most squads. Hell, if you really want drop 1 termy and throw in abbadon.

You have multiple ways of opening up that LR - meltas, LC, DS oblits, etc etc - or just wait until he pops out to munch on your bait squad.


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## b.anthracis (Nov 18, 2008)

mmhh,

no the mathammeing seems wrong for me.

lets assume 5 termi champs with lc

this are 5 at on the charge each which makes 25 Attacks. WS 4 against WS4, 50 % are going to hit. So 12.5 are going to hit. S4 against T4 with reroll to wound, 75% are going to hit which is 9.3. From those 9 wounds 2/3 are going to be stopped by the 3+ invul. So only 3 will go down. If he allocate wounds on logan its less since he has more than one wound. This leaves him with 3 killed termis. And than 4 + logan are striking back.
which are 8 Attacks from the termis and 5 from logan.
4 Attacks from hammers are hitting roughly 3-4 are wounding, you save roughly 1-2, 2-3 termis dead. than the 5 from logan 3 are hitting, 3 are wounding another 2 termis dead....csm termi unit killed.(or 1 left)...


so he will have roughly 3 casualties where you have 5...


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Abbadon leading 7 Terminator champions with Icon of tzneetch.

Thats 28 attacks. 14 will hit. 10.5 wounds. 3.5 dead.
Abaddon with all his fancy rules will add at least 2-3.

Your increased inv will take the edge of his wounds.

and you can even put a few on Abaddon, seeing as he is immune to ID.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

b.anthracis said:


> mmhh,
> 
> no the mathammeing seems wrong for me.
> 
> ...


Oops sorry, I rerolled to hit - not wound. It would look like this:

5 LC Champs = 25 attacks
1 LC Standard Bearer = 4 attacks

29 attacks -> 14.5 hit -> 10.875 wound -> 3.625 dead (read 4). Can't allocate to Logan as you won't attack him.

That leaves 3 termies + Logan to attack back which will result in 3.51 dead (read 4) Tie.

Next round would be game over for the CSM as they only kill 1 more. However, you've now gutted that unit at roughly half the points. This also isn't factoring in the fact that you've got a land raider which is now free to pop lascannon shots at stuff. Throw abbadon in and your still probably cheaper but you kill 3 termies with just him. 

I'd say that LR + 4 LC champs + 1 LC slaneesh SB + Abbadon should be able to do it for maybe 2/3 the costish?


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

also against the slaanesh champs Logan can use hi weapon as a power weapon too so I'm not sure if he's striking before them or equally. I think the tzeentch terminators are pretty good idea though they're a fairly killy tarpit...


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## b.anthracis (Nov 18, 2008)

But how do you fit 6 termis (Champs + Icon bearer) in a csm LR? There is only place for 5. Since they SW Termis have Stormhammer anyway, you don't need the IoS because they have ini 1 anyway. I think IoK or IoT is the better option.


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## Xander Two-wolves (Jun 18, 2010)

It is pretty awesome, and yea most of my other squads suffer.


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## Dugong (Apr 13, 2008)

While i have no experience fighting space wolves, particulary the Logan guy you mentioned, i can give advice on how to deal with assult terminators in general. A friend I oftern play against a friend who fields Vulcan and about 6 Assult terminators with the ss and LC, although they do not ride in a raider they are very difficult to destroy. 

First things first, you've got to get them out of the land raider. This can be done by either blowing it up using a lascannon from an oblit or a vindicator shot, I prefer the latter but my vindicator has bad case of blowing-up-first-turn. The alternative to blowing the raider is to provide bait such as plague marines, give them 2 meltas and place them in an aggressive position to attack the raider and they're bound to assult you, with defensive grenades they get no bonuses for charging and your powerfist could hurt them. Anyway the idea is to get them out, one way or another.

Now that they're out, how do we get rid of them? the only consistent way i can think of is with a massive multiple assult from everything you have. To take on my friends vulcan/assult terminator squad i attack with a Demon prince (I used a lash prince but a Nurgle or Tzeench prince with warptime does wonders, and wind of chaos will help a lot with the tzeench prince) and a fully tooled up berzerker squad. In my berzerker squads i keep the pw on the champ since furious charge allowes me to go before him. 

Anyway if you're having real troubles kiling them then i suggest 2 DP's, preferably with warptime (if you don't like using DP's then grab kharn, he's a bargin at 165 points and will really mess them up, but you need to be good at rolling 5+ invunerable saves since he's not immune to instant death) and 2 10 man berzerker squads. If the berzerkers shoot then everyone assults i don't see how anything can survive that. 

The idea with dealing with this kind of squad is to either attack early by destroying the raider and rushing the contents, or to prepare for a counter attack. If you're having trouble getting rid of the raider then go for option 2, keep zerkers in rhinos and set up the trap. otherwise do what chaos loves and run in screeming with a gun and a chain(insert ccw here).


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## Daemonetteboobs (May 31, 2010)

Really great advice from everyone, thanks! Looks like the wolves have launched a recon campaign inside my lines (Xander Two-Wolves is my buddy) but all of your input should help me next time I face this behemoth.


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## Raptors8th (Jul 3, 2009)

In all honesty, just run your most effective balanced list: dual lash w/ oblit spam. Throw in some fast suicide melta and voila, bye-bye death star.

Or if you just wanted pure fun you could make your own death star (LR full of MoK LC termie champs & Abbadon) and run into an assault with him. Hell that's a cheaper deathstar and even killier. Just make sure Logans only in b2b with Abby, that way he can't kill your termies.
Good Hunting,
Raptors8th


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## CLT40k (Jun 18, 2010)

Problem that I see is that you're trying to tailor a list to beat one type of build... What other options do you have at 2500 points? I'm assuming you have the tools to pop a raider so that's step 1. His hammer unit is 1000 points. You should be fighting his other 1500 points with most of your army. If you can delay their effectiveness and focus on the other elements in his list, then you should be looking to face them turn 4-ish... At which point, you should be in a position to torrent him, throw a unit at him, etc... I think the key is to delay the hammer and overload the rest of his forces till you have an advantage.

Lash is good, but between the 4+ negation that a Rune Priest will offer along with the Wolf Tail - I don't think you can rely on it... but if it goes off, then good on ya.... but I wouldn't rely on it.


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## CLT40k (Jun 18, 2010)

I also think Raptor's idea is strong... I've always liked it when my list and my opponent's mirror each other... and a Logan vs. Abbadon is certainly going to generate some bragging rights.


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## silentrob (May 17, 2010)

Focus on the rest of his army. The only thing I would recommend is dedicating an Obliterator or havoc squad to hopefully destroy it but immoblisation would also be a winner. 
Don't try and tailor a list just to defeat this unit, you will just lose to the rest of his army. Hes betting on you throwing everything you got at his landraider and as long as you tunnel vision he will win. Goodluck


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## Daemonetteboobs (May 31, 2010)

Last night I was able to pull off a great victory over his Loganwing army. I ran this list, not tailored specifically to defeating a death star but it was tailored to crushing some mech. 

--HQ-- 

Kharn 

Daemon Prince, Wings, MoS, LoS

--Elites-- 

5 Chosen 
3 meltaguns 
Rhino w/Combi-melta

--Troops-- 

2 squads of 8x Berzerkers 
skull champ, PF 
Personal icon
Rhino w/ Combi Melta

8x Berzerkers
skull champ, PF
_These guys rode in the Landraider with Kharn_

--Heavy Support-- 

Land Raider 
Daemonic Possession 

2x Obliterators

2x Obliterators 

The game was a capture and control with 3 objectives and a pitched deployment. Two-Wolves won the roll to go first. I castled my rhinos behind my land raider in the center of the table, deployed the Lash Prince behind some cover along a table edge and reserved the chosen and the two Obliterator squads. My opponent had a Lascannon devastator squad in a tall building, a Lascannon Land Raider full of assault termies covering one of the flanks and Logan with his Terminator squad in a Crusader on the other in front of a squad of grey hunters in a rhino. 

On the first turn he moved his Las-Raider up 6" while the crusader and GH came up 12. There was some ineffective shooting from his devastators and the Land raider against my own Raider. During my portion of the turn I brought the Raider and the two rhinos up 12" towards two objectives that were sitting 12" apart from each other in the center of the table; one amongst some ruins and the other inside a crater. The daemon prince stayed in cover for the time being and as I moved everything to it's fullest extent, there was no shooting. It was one of the shortest turns I've ever played in a game. 

The second turn my opponent moved the crusader and rhino up 6" while everything else held their positions. He shot my landraider with his devastator squad and destroyed it! Things were not looking good for me already. Kharn and the berzerkers were forced to disembark into the enemy's line of sight as the rhinos taking cover behind the raider were blocking the other door. He fired his assault cannon on the crusader into one of the rhinos, immobilizing it. 

On my turn, I passed reserve rolls with my chosen and one squad of obliterators. The deep striking Obliterators came in 6" off of Kharn's personal icon, about 20" away from my opponent's las-raider while the chosen infiltrated, I rolled a 3 which put them on the right flank, they came in right behind Logan's crusader. Kharn's squad advanced into the cover of the crater housing the objective. The squad from the immobilized rhino stayed inside while the other rhino took cover from the crusader behind the ruins where the other objective was located. My daemon prince flew over his cover and came up a few inches behind my rhino. During my shooting phase I immobilized both landraiders with lascannon shots from obliterators and meltas from the chosen. 

Third turn, my opponent disembarked the assault terminators from the Las-raider and moved towards the obliterators. Another squad of terminators that had been sitting on the objective closer to his table edge came out from behind cover and advanced on the obliterators as well. Logan's squad disembarked from his raider and moved towards the rhino that was taking cover behind the ruins. In the shooting phase his devastators annihilated the rhino, and I rolled all too well for the berzerkers inside, mostly 5's and 6's to wound, and then in a sudden twist of fate, all too poorly for their saves, mostly 1's and 2's. The squad was reduced to half strength. 

On my turn my other squad of obliterators came on off of a personal icon on the now half-strength berzerker squad. These zerks moved into the ruins and the daemon prince came up behind. My other berzerker squad disembarked from their rhino and I now had a 12" killing field constructed in the center of the table with 2 full-strength squads of berzerkers, 2 obliterators, and a daemon prince. My chosen shot at the Crusader again, destroying it. Logan and squad disembarked and I dropped plasma cannon shots from the obliterators on them, killing one. In the assault phase my 4 remaining berzerkers assaulted logan and were wiped out, just as I expected. Logan consolidated towards the obliterators in the center of the semi-circle of death. 

In the fourth turn Logan moved closer to my obliterators but was still not in assault range. My opponent fired lascannons into my obliterators on the left flank and killed one with instant death, I was able to make two 5+ invulnerables for the other, who would only live on to be overwhelmed in the assault phase. He disembarked the gh and killed off the two bolter chosen in the squad near the rear of the table. 

At the bottom of four I brought the remaining chosen into the rhino and moved twelve inches towards the terminators that had destroyed my obliterators. I lashed logan's squad and my opponent rolled a 2 for the psychic nullification (phew!) so they moved within an inch of Kharn and his 16 bloodthirsty berzerkers. The obliterators laid into the squad as well, firing their twin-linked plasma guns and killing off two more terminators before the assault. The assault was incredible. Kharn threw in his 6 attacks, there were 56 basic berzerker attacks, and 8 power fisting berzerker attacks. The results were overwhelming and after an astounding amount of dice-slinging and Kharn killing two of his own berzerkers, logan and retinue's skulls hung as trophies for Khorne. The squad without Kharn consolidated towards the ruins objective and Kharn's unit held fast in the crater. 

In turn five my opponent realized that he had abandoned his objective to bring his terminators towards the center of the table and rushed his rhino with GH and unit of three terminators back towards the building with the objective and his devastators. His other remaining terminators moved up to the crater, preparing their assault on the berzerkers inside. He fired his lascannons on my obliterators but they shrugged off the lone wound with a 5+ invul save. He assaulted, just barely making it into base to base with my berzerkers in the crater. I struck first, killing a couple of terminators and then he returned, taking vengeance for Logan's massacre by insta-killing kharn with a powerfist just before being torn asunder himself. My own powerfisting berzerker was able to wipe up the remaining termie. 

At the bottom of 5 I shook his rhino with the chosen and lashed his terminators 11 inches back away from the objective. The berzerker squad in the ruins were at full strength and the squad in the crater held down the objective with 3 remaining men. I was winning 2-0 but the resilient wolves rolled a 6 and the game continued into turn 6. 

With no hope of reaching the objective his terminators charged the berzerkers in the crater but were only able to reach the obliterators for assault. The daemon prince was charged and killed by a brave wolf guard. One oblit fell but the other remained, tying the last terminators in close combat. 

In my turn I immobilized the rhino with the chosen and killed another terminator. He was now contesting one objective in the center and I held the other, again a 6 was rolled and the game carried into the final turn. 

In the final combat my berzerkers rushed in for glory, slaughtering the remaining terminator and the game ended in a 2-0 victory for the Blood God!


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

very nice. Not so unstoppable now is it


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## Daemonetteboobs (May 31, 2010)

Not with a little advice from the Heresy forums and some critical thinking on my part. Thanks again guys!


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