# Emperor - Horus Heresy



## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

does anyone know if we are gonna get any in depth info on the emperor in any future HH novels. i know we got small things like meetings with the lion and a snippet with john grammaticus but other than that there has been nothing. for me i dont want to wait until we get to the siege of terra and then only get small bits of the books with him in it. 
i think there should be a few novels with the main story line to do with the emperor. maybe a book about the relationship with malcador and what they have planned for the imperium, some thing to do with his thoughts on the primarchs and his relationships with them, the implyed relationship with eldrad ultran, maybe abit about the unifications wars and a book about what the hell he was doing leaving for terra to set up secret projects.
if anyone has heard anything or wants to speculate on any of these topics please feels free as im worried that this stuff is gonna be overlooked by GW and black library and its a important part of the 40k lore.


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## G_Morgan (Mar 3, 2008)

The project on Terra was about stealing the Eldar Webway so that pretty much rules out any friendship with Uthran IMHO.

If he had succeeded then it would totally change the nature of interstellar transport in the Imperium. He would no longer need to support the Astronomican, humanity would be safe (for the most part) from the warp, transport speeds would be greatly improved, etc.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

G_Morgan, where'd you get that from?

From what I remember, the Emperor returned to Terra so he could begin to work on the next stage of human evolution: every human (of following generations) becoming a psyker, which when tied in with religion and worshipping being taken away would keep things like possession from happening.


Unknown Primarch, I would hope they do not reveal things like what the Emperor truly had planned for the Imperium or the feelings he had towards the primarchs. A great deal has not been expanded upon for good reason, it keeps a portion of us wanting. That and when you think about it, if they did do books about the Emperor or from his point of view, would they do him and that part of history the correct amount of justice? 

Things like what the Emperor was planning, or even the final battle with Horus are epic events that are hard to do right and not leave the reader feeling like it should have been better.


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## G_Morgan (Mar 3, 2008)

I'm sure that the Golden Throne was originally a Webway gate the Emperor had built. Lacking access to the same technology as the Eldar he instead built it using psychic wards. When Magnus the Red sent his warning to the Emperor about Horus it shattered the wards and actually did potentially more harm than the heresy.

When that happened millions of demons started to pour through the gateway and it took all of the Emperors attention to seal it temporarily. This kept the Emperor from dealing with Horus early*. When Horus got to Earth Malcador took over temporarily to allow the Emperor to fight Horus.

*which is why he wanted Russ to bring back Magnus. To sit on the throne and allow him to deal with the rebellion.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

any speculation on whats to come after HH - Mechanicus at all. seems along way of until Him on the throne get super lazy and guilleman fucks everything up for the imperium.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Well theres the battles of the Iron Warriors and the Imperial Fist fleet. The Imperial Fist fleet had been to late to aid their loyalist brothers in the drop site massacre, and were unable to return to Terra because of the storms, Horus sent the Iron Warriors to deal with their bitter rivals and cripple another legion.

Can't forget the Blood Angels either, how they fought against a tide of daemons, only to see a greater daemon break the back of their primarch and sow the seeds of the black rage in them.

My personal favorite, the battle of Prospero; as the now tricked Space Wolves lay siege to the homeworld of Magnus and set out to wipe them out rather than take Magnus back as they had been instructed. (This being a plan of Tzeentch and Horus, to trick Magnus and his marines to side with him when he could not be turned like the others.)

G_Morgan, in the official fluff, the golden throne wasn't constructed until after Horus was defeated. (Though the plans for the golden throne were the Emperors while Dorn was the one who built it.) When Horus and the others besieged Terra, the Emperor was using all his will to hold back the tide of daemons that had not been summoned forth, and Malcador took that up when the assault on the battle barge was done.


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## Lord Commander Erus (May 1, 2008)

The Golden Throne is a webway gate. Check out the Horus Heresy art work books, Volume IV, it contains the info there.

The Sisters of Silence ceased to be because they died fighting daemons trying to emerge from the webway gate. The gate had fallen into disrepair, and the webway works by boring a tunnel through the warp that is 'safe' essentially like an underwater aquarium tube. 

The Emperor was using his prodigus psychic might to try and re-seal and protect and repair the webway, and Magnus' message of warning ripped apart the wards the Emperor had set upon the webway and unleashed a Giant horde of daemons into the palace, thus Magnus being called to Terra and the Emperor beign trapped in the Throne until his battle with Horus, it was taking all he had to keep the gate sealed.


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## G_Morgan (Mar 3, 2008)

darkreever said:


> G_Morgan, in the official fluff, the golden throne wasn't constructed until after Horus was defeated. (Though the plans for the golden throne were the Emperors while Dorn was the one who built it.) When Horus and the others besieged Terra, the Emperor was using all his will to hold back the tide of daemons that had not been summoned forth, and Malcador took that up when the assault on the battle barge was done.


My understanding was that after the battle the Emperor gave instructions on how to modify the golden throne to keep him alive indefinitely so he could continue to seal the web way gate and guide the astronomican.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor#Visions_of_Death

Lexicanum isn't perfect but has some info on it.


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## Holyboltshells (May 22, 2008)

Sorry if im not on the right track but ill bring it back to the TC's original question.
So far the Emperor has had very little screen time with the exception of the introduction to Grammaticus and his meeting with the main character from Descent of Angels (the name has escaped me)
Personally I doubt BL will choose to give the Emperor his own book, or expose him more and i feel that this is probably right.

He is supposed to be this enigmatic leader of mankind, whos watched man develop since 8,000 BC to become its ultimate leader, during which time hes conquered Terra, created the Primarchs and Astartes and led the Great Crusade. I cant see how an exposure of his inner monologue (which lets face it would be rather large and complex) would help. In addition this would mean the Emperor would have to "come out" as in explaining why hes a pretty poor father to his sons and to explaining why he failed to tell them about Chao's, surely he didnt think ignorance was a shield (8000 plus years on earth should have told him that) so therefore why didnt he tell them.

So a story focusing on the Emperor would require some questions answered something BL is prone not to do.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

i understand what you guys mean by keeping some stuff mysterious but with these little mentions of his personality from various sources in HH novels i think it would be good to see his true side and then have what all the rest of the imperium think of him all in one thing so you can see the stories at different angles if you get what im talking about. 
i think alot of the fluff being repressed actually harms the story. i'd prefer to know the truth but then see the different characters and the contridictions of their beliefs and actions. 

for instance, i think the emperor knew some of his sons were gonna turn and it was all a plan in the long run to stop chaos. im probably totally wrong but the guy had such awesome power how could other people see it and not the most powerfulest psyker in the universe plus with having malcador helping farseeing then they should have known. i think it may not have gone totally to plan but by having the imperium the way it is it instills that "what doesnt kill you makes you stronger". 
hell saying that even if we dont get a indepth look at the emperors personality than at least we may get what he was think while he was waiting for horus to lower his sheilds and what was said during their fight on board the vengeful spirit. hell im looking forward to horus and sanguinius coming face to face.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Unknown Primarch said:


> for instance, i think the emperor knew some of his sons were gonna turn and it was all a plan in the long run to stop chaos. im probably totally wrong but the guy had such awesome power how could other people see it and not the most powerfulest psyker in the universe


Its simple how he didn't see it, he chose not to. You get a perfect example of someone doing this in Flight of the Eisenstein, when after Garro tells Dorn of everything that happened Dorn still refuses to believe Horus has done such a thing because that would mean his own brother had done such a thing. Dorn did not want to accept the truth even after irrefutable proof had been shown to him. 

This is the same for the Emperor; what father wants to believe that his son, sons for that matter, have turned to everything he was fighting against and now must be killed? From what is currently known, it takes the sight of Horus strangling Sanginius before the Emperor would accept that he has to fight Horus, and it takes something more before the Emperor comes to realize that he has to kill Horus.

Doesn't matter that he's the most powerful psyker in the universe, or that he was aided by some of the most powerful of people. He did not want to believe the truth and nothing anyone else could say could sway him from that.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

good points there but if thats true then what right did he have of taking a position of emperor of mankind if he cant even sort out his own family. 
i did like the small mention in legion when the eldar said he was always hungry for a fight and they commented on how he even called himself the emperor before he even took control of earth. maybe his problem that with his vast wisdom he has got super arrogant since he was lik 40-50 thousand years old at the start of the heresy. maybe he was so sure of his own powers and how great his creations the primarch were that he underestimated the taint of chaos. 
one thing i cant understand is why didnt he take control when mankind was in its golden age. technology was at its peak and mankind was just colonising the galaxy. that would have been a perfect time to usher in the new evolutionary stage of man. everything would have been good.


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## Alias2003 (Feb 7, 2008)

darkreever said:


> G_Morgan, in the official fluff, the golden throne wasn't constructed until after Horus was defeated. (Though the plans for the golden throne were the Emperors while Dorn was the one who built it.) When Horus and the others besieged Terra, the Emperor was using all his will to hold back the tide of daemons that had not been summoned forth, and Malcador took that up when the assault on the battle barge was done.


The Golden throne has been mentioned to have been constructed before and after the HH. In some cases it is said that the Emperor was forced to sit on the golden throne to prevent the tear in the webway Magnus had caused from spilling Daemons into the Imperial Palace. In other lore it mentions that the Emperor gave dying instructions to Rogal Dorn for the construction of the throne after his fight with Horus. 

Also you were correct in saying that Malcador did hold back the Daemons, but he did this from the Golden throne, as he temporarily hooked up to it while the Emperor disconnected himself so he could lead the attack on Horus's ship. When they returned it was said that Malcador was nothing more then a shriveled husk that used the last of his powers to keep the Emperor alive while they hooked him up to the throne.

I am sure at one point this might all become more clear, but right now you could look at it from many ways!

Alias


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## Iron Within (Mar 15, 2008)

I think we could expect something about the Emperor and his projects. These books are by and large the only real source that we have on the events around Horus Heresy. I really hope to see a novel on Magus the Red's fall, and the Iron Warriors vs. the Imperial Fists.

EDIT: We have also yet to hear about the drop site massacre.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

well they better start something with Him in it soon because we are about halfway through the heresy. there is so much potential fluff thats unwritten to keep black library going for years. dropsite massacre has occured in fulgrim didnt it. i know ferrus mannus got killed in that book. no mention of other loyalist primarchs if i remember correctly. i did read those books ages ago.


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

Unknown Primarch said:


> well they better start something with Him in it soon because we are about halfway through the heresy. there is so much potential fluff thats unwritten to keep black library going for years. dropsite massacre has occured in fulgrim didnt it. i know ferrus mannus got killed in that book. no mention of other loyalist primarchs if i remember correctly. i did read those books ages ago.


I just finished it the other day lol 
Yeah it has the massacre in it, it's got Vulkan and Corax in it as well, albeit only fleetingly though, Corax was carried off and it doesnt mention what happened to Vulkan.


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## Death Shroud (Mar 1, 2008)

I think the throne was built with Magnus in mind, he would have sat there for eternity and his mind could have travelled freely.


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## Rindaris (Mar 17, 2008)

Iron Within said:


> I think we could expect something about the Emperor and his projects. These books are by and large the only real source that we have on the events around Horus Heresy. I really hope to see a novel on Magus the Red's fall, and the Iron Warriors vs. the Imperial Fists.
> 
> EDIT: We have also yet to hear about the drop site massacre.


The Massacre is detailed quite nicely in Fulgrim.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

i think there is room for a book or two with what happened to vulkan and corrax at the dropsite massacre. i mean what the hell can put a primarch on his back anyway. will be interesting to hear this story anyway.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> does anyone know if we are gonna get any in depth info on the emperor in any future HH novels. i know we got small things like meetings with the lion and a snippet with john grammaticus but other than that there has been nothing. for me i dont want to wait until we get to the siege of terra and then only get small bits of the books with him in it.


Apart from those times you mentioned and his involvement in the short story 'The Last Church' - he has been included only in name. Personally I dont think that the Black Library should delve too far into the Emperor's background or give him major parts in novels because they simply can't pull it off!



Unknown Primarch said:


> and a book about what the hell he was doing leaving for terra to set up secret projects.


He returned to Terra because the Great Crusade was all but over and he needed to set in motion the next part of his plan; The Invasion of the Webway, with the presumed ultimate aim of weaking Chaos.

Personally I see the Emperor taking direct control over humanity as a last ditch attempt to prevent Chaos from conquering all. In my view his plan started as thus:

1. Conquer Terra and unite with the Empire of Mars (which he had planned thousands of years earlier, by setting into motion events that would result in the Priests of Mars recognising him as the Omnissiah)

2. Bring all the lost elements of humanity under his Iron Rule, and spread the message of the Imperial Truth, resulting in the weakening of Chaos, starving it of worship.

2a. Outlawing Sorcery at the council of Nikaea, resulting in less risky psychic practises resulting in less Daemonic possessions/corruptions and therefore reduce the galaxy-wide influence of Chaos via Psykers.

3. Invasion of the Webway. Preventing Humanity from being solely reliant on Warp travel, thus reducing Mankinds reliance on the warp.

- And that is currently all we know of the Emperor's plans. There is likely to have been many more steps planned, but the eruption of the Heresy prevented him achieving his goals.



darkreever said:


> G_Morgan, in the official fluff, the golden throne wasn't constructed until after Horus was defeated. (Though the plans for the golden throne were the Emperors while Dorn was the one who built it.) When Horus and the others besieged Terra, the Emperor was using all his will to hold back the tide of daemons that had not been summoned forth, and Malcador took that up when the assault on the battle barge was done.


The Golden Throne was constructed by the Emperor before the outbreak of the Heresy, as a means of gaining access to the Eldar Webway. When the Red Cyclops warned him of the Horus Heresy the wards and runes protecting the Imperial built section of the Webway were shattered, resulting in Daemons flooding in. 

Magnus not only broke the Emperor's laws, but came extremley close to not only interupting, but preventing the Emperor from achieving his plans to save humanity. The Emperor likely thought that Magnus himself had been corrupted by the use of sorcery and ignored the contents of Magnus' message because Horus' betrayal was incomprehensable and he thought Magnus had been decieved by Sorcery. Thus the Wolves of Fenris were unleashed...

The Emperor was forced to remain on the Golden Throne (to keep the Imperial webway gate sealed) right up until Horus lowered his shields on the Venegeful Spirit during the Siege of Terra. Malcador the Hero took the Emperors place on the throne while he confronted Horus, and when the Emperor returned shattered and broken he gave Dorn instructions to convert the Golden Throne to also be a life-support machine, thus we have the state of the affairs we are in in M41. 



Unknown Primarch said:


> i think there is room for a book or two with what happened to vulkan and corrax at the dropsite massacre. i mean what the hell can put a primarch on his back anyway. will be interesting to hear this story anyway.


We now of course have the knowledge that 'Raven's Flight' is being released, which will cover Corax and the Raven Guard post-Isstvan V as they are trying to survive in the mountains and caves of Isstvan V, attempting to avoid the roaming Chaos legions.


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## Praxiss (Aug 13, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> good points there but if thats true then what right did he have of taking a position of emperor of mankind if he cant even sort out his own family.





Whoa.....are you sugesting that someone should not be allowed to be in a position of power (eg Royalty / President) if they can't sort out their own family problems?

Eeep. The whole world is screwed.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

well if a super powered, highly knowledgeable and nearly as old as mankind being cant get it right who can? you would expect things to run close to perfect seeing as he knows a hell of a lot of stuff and seeing how he mentions knowing stuff about ages past and things people did in the last church you would think he would have learned from mankinds past mistakes and forsaw that some of the primarchs where abit unstable. plus with the 2 unknowns doing something close to what horus did as stated in the lightning tower then you would have thought He would have been on his toes about possible taint.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

On the other hand when you are planing the rescue and reconstruction of an entire empire over a period of more than 40000 years maybe it is possible to become a little out of touch regarding individuals feelings etc even if they are your super human sons.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Thus the Wolves of Fenris were unleashed...


Keep in mind the unleashing was not the Emperor's doing; he just wanted to bring Magnus in either to explain, be given an explanation, or pass judgment and retribution himself. Horus coaxed and played on the personal beliefs of Russ in order to trick him into attacking Prospero in an attempt to 'kill' Magnus.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

darkreever said:


> Keep in mind the unleashing was not the Emperor's doing; he just wanted to bring Magnus in either to explain, be given an explanation, or pass judgment and retribution himself. Horus coaxed and played on the personal beliefs of Russ in order to trick him into attacking Prospero in an attempt to 'kill' Magnus.


Strangely though I have an email from Graham Mcneil saved somewhere (im currently trying desperatley to find it!), I stated this to him and he told me to essentially "read the passage in False Gods again..." - Its not clear cut that Horus tricked Russ into burning Prospero.

It may well have been the Emperor.

for example, Old fluff aside, more recent fluff still has it as the Emperor ordering it:

Synopsis of A Thousand Sons:

"...the Master of Mankind dispatches fellow primarch Leman Russ to attack Prospero itself..."

Synopsis of Propsero Burns:

"The Emperor is enraged. Primarch Magnus the Red, of the Thousand Sons Legion, has made a catastrophic mistake that endangers the safety of Terra. With no other choice, the Emperor charges Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, with the apprehension of his brother from the Thousand Sons home world of Prospero. This planet of sorcerers will not be easy to overcome, but Russ and his Space Wolves are not easily deterred. With wrath in his heart, Russ is determined to bring Magnus to justice and cause the fall of Prospero."

It seems that the Emperor doesn't intend to kill Magnus, but still 'cause the fall of Prospero' - maybe in order to remove any taint and knowledge of sorcery.

Remember how desperate the Emperor was, having just conquered the galaxy and united humanity under his Iron Rule (thus starving Chaos of Worship (conscious or otherwise) by enforcing the Imperial Truth), the next stage of his plan was the Invasion the Webway which would remove Humanities reliance on Warp travel thus also weakening Chaos. Magnus not only broke the Emperors laws but threatened to destroy Terra and prevent the Emperor from achieveing his goals, and thus possibly even preventing humanity from salvation. The content of his warning was irrelavent, the Emperor likely believed that Magnus had become corrupted by sorcery and his message was the result of said corruption.

Magnus threatened to ruin the Emperor's plans for humanity, if I was in the Emperor's position I wouldnt just send his brother to arrest him quietly. I would have ordered Russ to burn Prospero to the ground, and arrest Magnus by force. Thus removing all knowledge of sorcery and removing the danger from the Imperium.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

But again, its interaction between father and son; even if your son nearly destroyed all your hard work are you honestly going to condemn him to death without explanation?


As for it being the Emperor who sent Russ to attack Magnus and burn Prospero, I will never believe it, long after they write it into the novels should that be the case. Having Horus twist things around made perfect sense, Magnus was a loyalist, it would take an ultimate act of betrayal to turn him and Horus realized that. 

What is a greater act than believing your father sent the one brother who hates you the most not to take you in, not to hear you out, but to kill you and your people for trying to do the right thing? And then as if that isn't enough, in the time after the fighting, only then do you learn that you were tricked, that you turned your back on those who did not order your death.



Also, I remember reading a while back that the Emperor was working on the next stage of human evolution, not the invasion of the webway. I don't ever actually recall ever reading about the webway bit beyond other people's guessing.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Ive heard that there will be a whole trilogy of books on the Siege of Terra, which would be fitting for such an epic saga of stories, so yes, that should include plenty on the Emperor, his fight with Horus etc...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

darkreever said:


> But again, its interaction between father and son; even if your son nearly destroyed all your hard work are you honestly going to condemn him to death without explanation?


I never said condemn to death. Just forcefully arrest him and trash his vile and corrupt sorcerous libraries.



darkreever said:


> As for it being the Emperor who sent Russ to attack Magnus and burn Prospero, I will never believe it, long after they write it into the novels should that be the case. Having Horus twist things around made perfect sense, Magnus was a loyalist, it would take an ultimate act of betrayal to turn him and Horus realized that.
> 
> What is a greater act than believing your father sent the one brother who hates you the most not to take you in, not to hear you out, but to kill you and your people for trying to do the right thing? And then as if that isn't enough, in the time after the fighting, only then do you learn that you were tricked, that you turned your back on those who did not order your death.


Indeed. I guess we will have to wait until Prospero Burns/A Thousand Sons until we can draw proper conclusions.

I was just saying that in my opinion if it was the Emperor who ordered Russ to attack Prospero (not just turn up and arrest Magnus) it would be entirely justified.

Also on a side note, if the Emperor wanted to only arrest Magnus peacefully and quietly, why send Russ? When it was publically known that Russ essentially hated Magnus and his sorcery. Also by sending Russ with his entire Legion of Astartes was only going to result in a confrontation.



darkreever said:


> Also, I remember reading a while back that the Emperor was working on the next stage of human evolution, not the invasion of the webway. I don't ever actually recall ever reading about the webway bit beyond other people's guessing.


The Invasion of the Webway was included in the Horus Heresy: Collected Visions. In fact that is what the Golden Throne was initially created for, as a conduit into the webway.

By 'hacking' into the old Eldar network, the Emperor would free mankind from reliance on Warp travel, and take a step closer to freeing humanity from the depridations of Chaos.


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