# SM help vs Space Wolves



## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

On wednesday (17th) I'm having my first game ever against a good friend of mine. He's playing space wolves.

I heard a lot of people saying they are hard to beat, and I'm pretty sure I need to keep them away from CC as much as possible...so my question is...

What tactics should I use, and what units should I take?

It's a 1000 point game, and I need your help!

The only units I don't have are vindicators and command squad.

Thanks :victory:


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

First thing to realize is that Space Wolves can do almost everything better and cheaper than standard Space Marines.

First thing you think is "...crap", which is what you should be saying, however there is some light at the end of the tunnel.

Take a look at my first line again... Space Wolves can do almost everything better and cheaper than standard Space Marines... ALMOST everything.

The best way to beat the Space Wolves is to try and use some of the advantages that are in the Space Marine codex that Space Wolves dont have access too, or cant do as efficiently.

First thing that comes to mind is Salamanders. Running Vulkan with Assault Terminators is very effective, and is something that Space Wolves can not pull off as efficiently. They can create a unit that is identical to a unit of TH/SS Terminators, however they are paying a lot more points for them.

Do you have a rough idea what kind of list he will be playing with?


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## Commissar Xeno (Mar 12, 2010)

One thing Space Wolves can do is outnumber other SM armies. I once played a game where all I had was a Wolf Guard Battle Leader, Predator with sponson bolters, 4xten man squads of GH with flamer, Meltaguns and Rhinos and a 105p Lone wolf. Thats 1000p, 42 men, (each are the equivelant of other SM's, just better at cc) and 5 tanks that are effective against hordes and tank-heavyies. One thing that butchered me up were the Sternguard with special ammo and a kitted-out Captain.

The Space Wolf player might take blood claws in which case they might have a bigger than average squad but the lower BS and WS means you can mince them in CC, just remember to charge instead of being charged. Counterattack is all that I found it to be as the unit must pass a moral check to gain its effects. The only really viable HQ unit I believe you should be affraid of are Rune Priests and Wolf Priests, there isn't much your opponetn can do to make them better so thats a fairly cheap HQ at 1000p.

Your opponent might also make a drop-pod assault, wich in my expierience aren't that good a choice for the player to make.

Don't underestimate the value of scout squads, give them sniper rifles and a missile launcher and thats a verry viable option.

Just remember, if it's either charge or be charged, charge them as they must pass a moral check to get its effects.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

What makes Vulkan with assault terminators so effective? I've never used them

He is getting his space wolves at the weekend, so he's new to them as much as I am. So I have no idea what hes going to run unfortunately, but I'm pretty sure he won't have a lot of armour :victory:

Sternguard attached to a Captain? Are te points really worth it?

I love scout squads with snipers. 10 men, 9 snipers 1 missile launcher. Hopefully this would be able to pin any CC threatening units, and soften them up a bit?

And charge, don't _be_ charged 

What other units should I take?
So far I have one or two squads of sniper scouts with 1 missile launcher...either vulkan with assault terminators or captain with sternguard 

Thanks


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## Drizzt_13 (May 22, 2009)

at 1000 points you just need to have the best army you can bring as other then taking lots of low ap weapons there aren't a lot of ways to tailor for SW's

stay out of close range with them, and have some good long range shooting to force saves on their long fangs which are an absolutely amazing unit.




> I love scout squads with snipers. 10 men, 9 snipers 1 missile launcher. Hopefully this would be able to pin any CC threatening units, and soften them up a bit?


never ever rely on pinning, so many things are immune to it or have high leadership so it isn;t really that effective, it's more of a nice bonus not somethign to rely on


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

A Landraider wouldn't be very effective at 1000 poitns would it?

A predator could be good, with some 5 man devastator squads?


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## zeroblackstar (Feb 16, 2010)

yeah a dakka pred would be a good investment


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## Might of the Emperor (Feb 1, 2009)

Let's see here. First, like others mentioned, sternguard are quite a viable solution. With their ap3 bolters, they could really tear up some wolves. Plasma cannons would also serve you well, although you would have to make sure and have a unit supporting them should your opponent attempt to advance on them(which you can bet he will. No one likes taking plasma cannon shots...). I love scouts as well, but I do not think they will serve you well here, as their leaderships is pretty solid throughout, so the pinning will likely not work out as you had planned it to. Lastly, like someone had said, your only good option to assault the space wolves is probably going to be assault terminators, as sadly, nothing else we have really stands out to me as being effective against them. So, to summarize, use sternguard and other units with superior firepower to blow him out of the water.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

cool, thanks guys.

How many sternguard? and in what squads? Should I kit them out, or leave them with their bolters? And am i right thinking that AP3 will deny them an armour save?

If its objective, would the scouts last well holding an objective? otherwise based on what Might of the Emperor said, I wont take them as the reason I would ahve taken them has been ruined lol

So, Vulkan with 5 Assault Terminators, sternguard (how many) and some heavy fire support...any fire support in particular? Cus I think devastators can be quite expensive. Any point in giving the devs 10 man squads or just stick it down to 5?, predators. What about tactical squads? What sort of kit, how many, and rhinos? thanks  

When I am not so busy I will +rep you all


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

Ultra111 said:


> I love scout squads with snipers. 10 men, 9 snipers 1 missile launcher. Hopefully this would be able to pin any CC threatening units, and soften them up a bit?


while this is good...it could be better, chuck Sgt. Telion in, his bolter is the same range as the sniper, its heavy 2, but you not moving if your using the missile launcher....SCOUT MISSILE LAUNCHER AT BS 6...using Telion's eye-thingy-ma-bob

WKG


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Nice, thanks Warlock  Much more likely to kill a few wolves lol

I want to win really badly, for many reasons, so I'm open to all help. I'll try putting a list together once I get a little more feedback

Just remember its a 1000 point game, so I'm a bit afraid that with a lot of heavy armour and terminators i may get overrun, because of blood claws and what not :/


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Oh and should my assault terminators have storm shield and shunder hammers OR lightning claws?

thanks!


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## Might of the Emperor (Feb 1, 2009)

Yes, the ap3 cuts through power armour. Also, if there was a group to pin in his army, the blood claws would be it. I suppose if you pinned them and then assaulted them with assault terminators, you could deal out a respectable amount of damage.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Terminators with He'stan is a total of 390 points. Is this worth it in a 1000 point match? yeah they will obliterate some foes, but at a price. I just really don't wanna be outnumbered...Or is it good? I would probably earn the points back by using scouts instead of tactical squads


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## Might of the Emperor (Feb 1, 2009)

I was rather wondering the same question myself. Honestly, I think he might be a little much, but then, I am not a real big advocate of him anyways. Perhaps a dual lightning claw terminator captain, or better yet, a chaplain to go with the terminators.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

double lash prince and 9 oblits....nuff said? lol


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

I'll definately go with the Chaplain, re-roll all failed roll to hits, seems better than just one gained with Vulkan...however, should I give that chaplain terminator armour...


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

possibly a Librarian with Gate, and the Terminators...never used it, but have been suggested to use it...so its worth a try, only trouble is the DS-ing :grin:

Though the Chaplain would be effective, its a CC monster and boosts the Assault termies nicely, just take one and use to playtest, if he's new to the army, there will be no huge pressure to win, as he's probably going to be finding his niche with the wolves as well

yes 390 pts seems a bit much for nigh on 6 models, even if one is a SC, try a vanilla Chapter Master or something, the Orbital Bombardment may be inaccurate, but if it hits a Blood Claws squad...well enough said :biggrin:

think about points efficiency, you want as many models as possible on the ground, while still maintaining an effective force.

- Tacticals with ML or PC
- Devastators with 4x ML, apparently a good all-rounder unit, if deployed correctly, good for targeting his bigger pack and any armour
-possibly a :suicide: suicide unit? Jump Pack Chaplian, with an Assault Squad, DS near his IC, SC, Long Fangs, or armour, and he'll shit himself, a Chaplain near you prized SC, will draw attention to move up scouts, Tacticals, Devastators


thats all off the top of my head atm


cheers

WKG


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

DSing next to something means you don't get the charge. Some units can simply blow a hole in things without getting their knives dirty. Assault squads are not so lucky.


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

this i thought of afterwards, going up against SW, having DS-ed in your turn, waiting the enemy turn your surely going to die unless you somehow are; within 18" for a move, run, assault tactic, but in cover?? or Heroic Intervention with Vanguard, though points wise they are a sink


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Not only are they a points sink, but they are a points sink that you miiiiight have just thrown away. As opposed to Sternguard, who will have time to blow huge fucking holes in everything, have a smoke break and then strike a really baddass pose before they get torn to pieces.


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

not to mention their layed back manner in which they take their time to sort through their many ammo cartridges looking for the right one, cause normal explosive tipped bolts, aren't good enough


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Is there anything I need to DS my terminators? Should I actually do this though? Because someone said earlier they would just get blown apart I think?

Now + rep to you all


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

Ultra111 said:


> Is there anything I need to DS my terminators? Should I actually do this though? Because someone said earlier they would just get blown apart I think?


1. scouts or a previously DS-ed DP with Locator Beacon
2. Librarian with Gate

not sure what other methods help with the DS-ing...those come to mind though


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## Might of the Emperor (Feb 1, 2009)

No, you don't need anything to deepstrike; however, if you don't want to have to worry about them scattering, you have to have a locator beacon. That being said, yes, you will have to weather fire on the turn they come in, and if you are using assault terminators, they cannot put out any return fire. Thing is, that is really the only other useful option you have besides a landraider, which is preferable. The only problem with that is the cost. I imagine you could pull off having them deepstrike in considering that you are only playing 1k points. If you have enough other dangerous units causing concern to your enemy, they shouldn't be shot up too horribly, but do not count on that.


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

for survivability take a LR, for heaps funny anti-horde/Blood Claw survivability take a Redeemer with Assaualt termies and Chappy, and use the Assault Vehicle, thing so charge when deploy (i think), after roasting some hides first


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Ok, so in terms of an actual list, how does this look (note I'm just writing it with no prior planning)

*HQ*
Chaplain - 100

*Elites*
5 man assault terminators with Land raider redeemer as dedicated tranport - 440
Chaplain is attached to the terminators.
5 man Sternguard Veteran squad - 125

*Troops*
5 man scout squad with Telion, 9 snipers, one ML - 135 
5 man scout squad with 5 snipers - 85

*Heavy support*
Predator with twin-linked lascannon and heavy bolter sponsoons - 130

*OR*

*HQ*
Chaplain - 100

*Elites*
5 man assault terminator squad - 200
Chaplain attached to terminators
Sternguard veteran squad - 125
Sternguard veteran squad - 125

*Troops*
5 man scout squad with Telion, 9 snipers, one ML - 135 
5 man scout squad with 4 snipers, 1 ML - 85

*Heavy support*
Predator and heavy bolter ssonsoons - 85
Devastator squad with 4 ML - 150


C&C please


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## Forty (Aug 3, 2009)

Librarian Epistolary with Gate and Force Dome.

5+ invul and 24" teleport movement to Librarian and any squad he rolls with.

Put him with Sternguard and hop around shooting those dogs to pieces.


40


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Do you mean replace Chaplain with Librarian? I quite like the CC bonus the chap gives, but librarian would be good as well, butmost likely a bit too expesnive :/


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## Forty (Aug 3, 2009)

Ultra111 said:


> Do you mean replace Chaplain with Librarian? I quite like the CC bonus the chap gives, but librarian would be good as well, butmost likely a bit too expesnive :/


I LOVE Chaplains. I just wonder if taking an HQ choice geared for CC is the right idea when fighting an army that wants you to get into CC. Personally, I would try to shoot the shit out of him. Just my opinion. Would love to know how you fared with both ideas.

:victory:

40


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## GiftofChaos1234 (Jan 27, 2009)

Ultra111 said:


> 5 man scout squad with Telion, 9 snipers, one ML - 135


they holding 2 each or something? haha :grin: but other than that looks pretty solid, :victory:


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

haha damn typos  lol

Which list do you think looks best? 
The first list has a lot less bodies, but gets the AT where they want to go, killing a few on the way...However this could be resolved with scouts and locator beacon, but then I have to make sure they don't get too shot-up.

The second list gives me a lot more manouverability, but I'm a bit concerned my terminators will get destroyed if I deepstrike them...

And with the librarian, what does epistolary do? Can you assault on the turn you teleport with the librarian? If you can, replacing the chaplain with the librarian would be a good solution!

Thanks!


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

Epistolary lets u use 2 powers a turn rather than 1


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## Forty (Aug 3, 2009)

Epistolary lets you use two powers each turn instead of one as mentioned right above me.

If you are dead set on engaging the SW in h2h then by all means take a Chaplain, not a Librarian. I just don't see a vanilla SM army winning a fight with the SW in h2h. I guess it could happen with really good tactics but I feel the your best bet would be to shoot them to pieces and stay out of h2h.

My idea is costly but it would give you a 10 man squad with bolters that have an array of ammo to choose from including str4 ap3 at 18" range that includes a Librarian that can give the unit a 5+ invul save and the ability to teleport 24" each turn for 400pts. Costly yes. But I think it could be very effective if your opponent isn't bringing a lot of high str, low ap weaponry. If this SW player is focused on h2h then shooting him would be his Achilles Heel.

Just my opinion. I would love to hear your results in the match, which ever way you choose to field your army.


40


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Can't decide between librarian and Chaplain :/

Librarian with Gate and Dome would be good, shooty wise, but don't I run a risk of losing my sternguard to the warp if it goes wrong? then theres the chance of scatter, and them being open to incoming fire the next turn...

Where as a chaplain will not provide much firepower, but will add a lot to h2h with my assault terminators, who will probably deep strike in...They will hopefully obliterate some wolves, providing they don't get shot up, but a 2+ save, then a 3+ invulnerable save should prevent this...

After describing it to myself, I think I will still go with chaplain, as I'm sure no matter how much I want to avoid it, I will get in h2h somewhere, so the terminators will come in handy with the chaplain...

So if it's ok with you guys, I would like to talk tactics.

Now, I have a lot of firepower with my devs, sternguard and predator, and pinning capabilities with my scouts, and Telion providing a BS6 with a misisle launcher should destroy a fair few...

Who should my Terminators engage as a high priority? And such, what tactics for sternguard, scouts, etc?

Thanks!


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Don't deepstrike in with termi's. He's get a round of shooting and then get his full furious charge goodness. Or just... shoot you up and leave. Do you really want to be trying to run with assault termi's?


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

If you're desperate to use Assault termi's then I strongly recommend you use them as a 'Net' and try and have more than one unit in CC with them. Deploy them as a 'line' across your Fire brigade. 7-8 in strength would be good enough. Add a chaplain to make sure you cause enough damage in the First assault.

Right, there is als the option of a Captain.
Arm him with a Relic blade, Storm shield and Artificer armour. You will have 3 str6 no save attacks protected by a 2+ save and 3+ inv. He will be able to face the majority of the Wolves in CC without to much worry.

If you're intent on taking Sterguard, try and get a Drop Pod for them. A few (although preferably all) Combi-plasmas means than when they land, they can cause a massive dent in the nearest squad...maybe even wiping it out. Then, rely on Special issue ammo to fight the rest of the battle. And might I Add, wounding on a 2+ with no harm to you is better than ignoring their save and potentially harming you imo. A librarian with Force dome would help this lot. Curse of the machine spirit is pretty nifty against armies that will rely on vehicles (like bjorn).

Use the scouts + Telion to remove rhinos, thats far more important than pinning squads imo aswell. The Wolves can then be taken apart at Range.

Apart from Assault termies, I seriously suggest staying out of CC. He is DESIGNED to beat you there, but you have the edge with shooting. Don't fight him on his terms. Unless it is tactically ok, try not to engage.

I suggest you deploy as Far forward as you can, to maximise firepower at close range. Then, fall back slowly as he draws nearer. Use units like Assault termies (deepstrike them in the way if you wish, although on foot would be just as good and less risky) to 'speed bump' and hinder his advance. He wont get through the armour of Assault termies in any hurry, and what does will take a battering.

Make sure he doesn't break your flanks either, so I suggest deploying the sternguard (again, via drop pod as i said earlier) to make sure this doesn't happen on one side. You need another unit on the otherside, OR be very clever and use a spare Rhino transport or two(seeing as you dont want to charge at him) to drive across and be destroyed, but only after its blocked the route down the other flank significantly.

Lots of things you could do tbh...let us know what you choose.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Orochi said:


> If you're desperate to use Assault termi's then I strongly recommend you use them as a 'Net' and try and have more than one unit in CC with them. Deploy them as a 'line' across your Fire brigade. 7-8 in strength would be good enough. Add a chaplain to make sure you cause enough damage in the First assault.


This would be cool, but at 280 pts + chaplain it is rather pricey...



Orochi said:


> If you're intent on taking Sterguard, try and get a Drop Pod for them. A few (although preferably all) Combi-plasmas means than when they land, they can cause a massive dent in the nearest squad...maybe even wiping it out. Then, rely on Special issue ammo to fight the rest of the battle. And might I Add, wounding on a 2+ with no harm to you is better than ignoring their save and potentially harming you imo. A librarian with Force dome would help this lot. Curse of the machine spirit is pretty nifty against armies that will rely on vehicles (like bjorn).


I'm pretty sure he's not deploying many vehicles, simply because he dones't have a lot in his collection. 150 points in each sternguard (so 300 total) Is also quite expensive, and with the drop pod makes it the more pricey.

So the terminators added on to the 2 sternguard squads with drop pods is 750 points, and I only have 18 models...adding on the scouts is 970 points...so yeah, problem is lack of models really. 




Orochi said:


> I suggest you deploy as Far forward as you can, to maximise firepower at close range. Then, fall back slowly as he draws nearer. Use units like Assault termies (deepstrike them in the way if you wish, although on foot would be just as good and less risky) to 'speed bump' and hinder his advance. He wont get through the armour of Assault termies in any hurry, and what does will take a battering.


Would you say devastator squads are a good investement, as when I start to fall back I may not be able to utilise their power? What would be a good replacement?


Thanks for the help mate, but the only problem is points cost.


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## Jernmajoren (May 5, 2009)

Personally I dont think an Assault Terminator squad is a great choice for you at these points.
Every turn they are not in combat a fifth of your army is doing nothing, almost a third if they have a chaplain with them.

Since its a 1000 point game and you are facing an army thats much better than standard marines in cc, you should focus your choices on killing as many you can before any cc takes place.
Having a small unit of assault terminators will not stop the space wolves from killing your scouts or other units in cc as they can only do so much, also every loss they take will reduce combat effectiveness significantly.
Instead I think you should go for units and weapons that are good at dealing with MEqs at range.
That means plasma weapons, melta weapons and MLs.
For cc support you could take dreadnoughts with either mm or pc and dccw - you get roughly 2 of those for the price of a squad of terminators.

For hq I would take a librarian with Null-zone and avenger for both anti-psyker but also for some support against anything with invulnerable save and a great anti-MEq template weapon.

Instead of scouts I would take tacticals with pc/pg, because the scouts will suffer when they get in cc and they arent that effective against marines since ld8-9 will only fail once in a while so pinning cant be relied upon as an effective tactic, while plasma weapons will kill marines will reliability.

Also some devastators with MLs would be a good investment.(one of them have bs 5 if the sgt dont shoot)

Other than that units you might want to consider would be MM armed attack bikes you get 3 of those for the cost of a 5 man devastator squad w MLs.
They could bring some mobile fire to your army for the loss of only a singe heavy weapon.

Imo the dakka pred will underperform against marines as its weapons allows save so it will on average kill ~1 marine a turn, and you could do just as well with a unit of ml-scouts for the points or better with 2 MM-attack bikes.

Good luck with the game. :victory:


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

With the librarian, does dome give you a save if gate goes wrong?

*HQ*
Epistolary Librarian with Force dome and Gate of infinity - 150

*Elites*
5 Sternguard with combi-plasma guns - 150
librarian attached to sterguard squad.
5 Sternguard veterans in drop pod - 160
Dreadnaught with assault cannon in drop pod - 150

*Troops*
10 man tactical squad with ML and plasma gun. Sergeant has power weapon - 195
10 Man tactical squad with Plasma gun and ML. Sergeant has power weapon - 195

Total points - 1000

*OR*

*HQ*
Epistolary Librarian with force dome and gate of infinity - 150

*Elites*
10 man sternguard squad - 250
Librarian attached to sternguard squad

*Troops*
10 man tactical squad with ML and PG - 180
10 man tactical squad with ML and flamer - 170

*Fast Attack*
3 Attack Bikes with 2 MM - 140

*Heavy support*
5 man Devastator Squad with 2 ML - 120


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## Jernmajoren (May 5, 2009)

No dome does not allow for save against gate of infinity as it does not inflict wounds.

Both of you new lists looks good imo, I like the second one the best though as it has a good amount of long range fire power that can grind your opponent as he tries to close on you.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Thanks man 

We will probably play 2 games, so I'll use 2 of the lists on here, most likely the 2nd one n last page, and then for fun one of the Assault terminator lists. Would be interesting to see how they both work


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## Jernmajoren (May 5, 2009)

sounds like a great idea, will give you some insight on how the units perform as well as great variation in the games as the play styles will be different for the two lists  good luck on the games and please let us know how the lists works out for you.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

of course, the matches are tomorrow, so will most likely film thrn tell what happened later. Quicker then notes lol would upload video but dont have a cable yet


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## Snowy (Jul 11, 2009)

Ok, Commisar Xeno, a Space Wolf player and mate of mine, played me the other day, it was only 500 points mind you.

I had a Captain ~130
Tac~240
Scout~100

and maybe I gave a few upgrades here and there, I played him...

and I got a draw (Both teams scoring units died.)
Captain munched through 2! units of Grey Hunters and a Battle Leader
I didn't do much else with the rest of 'em though.

Next time I play him, I'm probably gonna take Tellion as the BS6 is too good to pass down. and he has the Voice of Experience, BS 6 Missiles, Hell yeah.

Yeah I know you've probably played the game by now but I'm just handing some of my experiences to you.


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## Commissar Xeno (Mar 12, 2010)

I'd advise taking more sternguard over the termies, as thier ammo is better than the termies save and close combat prowess, you shouldn't have to worry about blood claws all that much because of thier lower ws and bs will hurt them.


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## Commissar Xeno (Mar 12, 2010)

Just remember Snowy that they were depleted and failed counter attack rolls.


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