# All Things Emperor's Children



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey everyone, I was reading through a few of the older and some of the newer boards and I'm finding alot of hate for the Emperor's Children and more specifically their Primarch Fulgrim (especially it seems, regarding his portrayal in the HH book of the same name). So I decided to start a discussion about all the different aspects of the Emperor's Children Legion, its characters and its fluff (especially post-heresy). There may be spoilers throughout these posts so be careful!

I also noticed that the Chaos God Slaanesh is either disliked entirely or is represented merely as 'The Porn God' which is a little sad as it ruins all the intricacies of that particular Diety, much in the same way Khorne is ruined by his portaryal as a mindless killer whose followers charge tanks and fortifications with their bare hands. 

But for me the Emperor's Children are by far the best legion, I have a natural sympathy with them as I adore their prideful arrogance (hey like me!) I also actually think Slaanesh is the most interesting of all the Chaos Gods. Finally the legion is home to my favourite HH charcter Lucius the Eternal. 

*Spoiler for the Book _Fulgrim_ Ahead*

Firstly, what is it with all the hating on the HH book _Fulgrim_? I actually think it is one of the top books in the whole series (although I would argue that it should have been slightly more adult orientated due to the Slaanesh theme). The biggest grievence people seem to have is with the portrayal of Fulgrim and specifically his fall, my only question is why? I think his fall is handled superbly, what I think everyone seems to believe is that Fulgrim merely picked up a sword and it corrupted him, when in actual fact the Daemon within the sword merely played upon his already existing flaws and weaknesses. The book also has some great moments i.e. the battle with the Eldar, the general represntation of the Legion and its characters, and of course the interaction between Fulgrim and Horus after he becomes possessed (why does no-one ever talk about this important moment, as Horus basically promises to free his brother Primarch if he can, adding a further dimension to his already excellent character?).

I was reading this book a little last night and I think those scenes between the Daemon possessed Fulgrim and Horus are amazing. I really enjoy the mannerisms and style of the post-possession Fulgrim and is anyone else besides me anxious to see the giant snake-like, four armed Fulgrim taking on Gulliman?

Anyway, I have plenty more to talk about regarding both the Legion and Slaanesh but i'll wait a while and see the kinds of responses this topic gets.

So what are your thoughts on All Things Emperor's Children?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> I also noticed that the Chaos God Slaanesh is either disliked entirely or is represented merely as 'The Porn God' which is a little sad as it ruins all the intricacies of that particular Diety


That particular stereotypical portrayal of Slaanesh is what grieves me the most. I think more often than not its said in jest (although its by no means amusing), but it has been such a prominent (false) stereotype that it seems to be believed by many.



D-A-C said:


> much in the same way Khorne is ruined by his portaryal as a mindless killer whose followers charge tanks and fortifications with their bare hands.


Although I think that that portrayal of Khorne is much more justified considering it has basis in the background.



D-A-C said:


> Firstly, what is it with all the hating on the HH book _Fulgrim_? I actually think it is one of the top books in the whole series (although I would argue that it should have been slightly more adult orientated due to the Slaanesh theme).


I don't think its as bad as some people seem to suggest. Its by no means my favourite Heresy novel, but its not near the bottom of my list either.



D-A-C said:


> The biggest grievence people seem to have is with the portrayal of Fulgrim and specifically his fall, my only question is why? I think his fall is handled superbly, what I think everyone seems to believe is that Fulgrim merely picked up a sword and it corrupted him, when in actual fact the Daemon within the sword merely played upon his already existing flaws and weaknesses.


People also seem to draw a similar comparison to Horus' downfall covered in the opening trilogy. Considering the authors had three novels to show Horus' downfall I thought it could have been handled better. The reasons were there, but they weren't emphasised or elaborated enough upon in my opinion.

I tend to think the same occured with Fulgrim in _Fulgrim_ (I also think a more elaborate title was needed). His corruption was justified, and enough reasons were given. But I just think they weren't emphasised to the level which people seemed to have wanted. 



D-A-C said:


> So what are your thoughts on All Things Emperor's Children?


As for the Emperor's Children in general, they are one of my favourite Astartes Legions as well (Slaanesh also being the most interesting and varied warp god in my opinion as well). Their ideals and perfection was what earned them the right to be the only Astartes Legion to bear the Emperor's Aquila, yet it was the very same ideals that were twisted and perverted to enable at first their distancing from the Emperor, and ultimately their fall to Chaos.


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## The Crimson King (Oct 14, 2010)

Fulgrim is probably my 5th favourite HH book, by the end of it I felt sorry for him.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Debating... Fulgrim might be my favorite Heresy novel. Most people actually consider it one of their favorites. So I'm actually surprised at the hate out there. It could possibly be that all the awesome character died out in Istaavan and that Lucius was a traitor that people dislike the legion. Some also disrespect fulgrim for being the only primarch who got possessed.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey everyone some great comments so far, and I'm glad you agree with some of my thoughts on the EC Child-Of-The-Emperor. I understand that people say 'porn for the porn God' as a kind of acknowledgement of their favour but it is indeed very stupid, repetitive and simple minded, (See we are supposed to be prideful and arrogant aswell  ) 

Ckcrawford, you actually reminded me about one of my favourite moments involving Lucius when he calls one of his brother marines for aid in repelling an enemy assault, only for that Marine (was it Demeter?) to find out that he had attacked loyal troops and that Lucius was in fact a traitor. Also he was involved in two of the best duels in the entire series, firstly his tragic and excellent fight against his friend Saul and who can forget the infamous incident with Loken in the sparring cages. What is everyone's opinion of the 'Scion of Chemos', the 'Soulthief', the 'Eternal', Lucius?  He is my favourite character, I just wish there was a colour artwork of him  .

Also I'm curious if anyone can explain to me why the incident with Kharn the Betrayer fractured the EC ? it seems that it should only really of caused problems for the World Eaters.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Well the fight with the World Eaters in Battle of Skalathrax was one of many feuds that the Emperor's Children had within the Eye of Terror with other legions. The Emperor's Children basically just fucked with too many enemies and were fought until their armies were broken. Their primarch isn't actually Fulgrim anymore either, so he doesn't give a shit that his legion is all over the place. I believe they even picked fights with the Black Legion when attempting to make clones of Horus.


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## RudeAwakening79 (Oct 20, 2008)

nothing wrong with the Emperor's Children...see my avatar :so_happy:

I also find FULGRIM one of the better HH-books...he's a kick-ass primarch, killing an Avatar of the bloody handy god like that and his never-ending quest for perfection...is something I can identify with, hehehe.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

i must admit that until i actually read Fulgrim i didn't really think that much of him but after reading it (about 8 times now) i love the guy and yeah slaanesh is the godof sex and drugs and rock and roll but that said imho there sre so many things in life that could be attributed to his worship, every walk of life that of all the dark gods he is the more interesting one, and the one more likely to worm his/her way in


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Wow, I was hoping there would be more EC, Slaanesh and Fulgrim fans out there.

Anyway, I was just curious about how you think the EC are post-heresy. I mean what does Lucius and his Warband actually do? How do the EC recruit? Where the heck is that pleasure planet of the Daemon Fulgrim and what is it like i.e. how Mortarions is a repeat of the planet he was discovered on? 

Finally do you think the EC still care about defeating the imperium and casting the Corpse God off of his Golden Throne? I think there must be some EC commanders who would think that would be the ultimate sensation/ experience and therefore would work towards that goal.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

never pick a fight with lucius cos if you take the slightrst satisfaction in his death or pleasure at the thought that you killed him youchange into him and your soul is trapped in his armour for all eternity the screams of the tormented giving off a powerful blast...personally i'd avoid that one if i were you as for the first captain and third captain i haveno idea


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> Wow, I was hoping there would be more EC, Slaanesh and Fulgrim fans out there.
> 
> Anyway, I was just curious about how you think the EC are post-heresy. I mean what does Lucius and his Warband actually do? How do the EC recruit? Where the heck is that pleasure planet of the Daemon Fulgrim and what is it like i.e. how Mortarions is a repeat of the planet he was discovered on?
> 
> Finally do you think the EC still care about defeating the imperium and casting the Corpse God off of his Golden Throne? I think there must be some EC commanders who would think that would be the ultimate sensation/ experience and therefore would work towards that goal.


I just wanted to take a moment and gratify _Fulgrim_ as this is what caused my final placement in building and painting my Emperor's Children. I felt really bad for Fulgrim at the end after he struck down Ferrus Manus and realized the gravity at what he did. I also enjoyed the final battle scene on Isstvan V, seeing how far Julius and Marius had finally fallen.

I imagine that the EC pick recruits from renegades who fall prey to Slaanesh, as well as Slaanesh cults that exist within the Imperium. As for Lucius' Warband, I am sure they raid the Imperium for the thrill of battle, and not for any particular goal as per say the Black Legion would. 

Moving on to Fulgrim's pleasure planet, wasn't there a theory that Gulliman actually killed Fulgrim in battle, and the anathema was the sort of the daemon's last licks?

I have a feeling that the EC still hate the Emperor as much as any other of the Traitor Legions do, but probably make it a backseat goal compared to fueling their own lust for battle.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

I actually finished re-reading _Fulgrim _a few days ago and I find it easy to see why people not particularly find him appealing. I actually happen to find myself returning again and again to the pages involving the Daemonically possesed Fulgrim, his conversation with Horus, his giving of the Laer sword to Lucius, etc.

Then again though, when you think about it, few of the other Primarch's are anything to brag about, Lion is an idiot, Angron and Russ are boring and one dimesional, even Sanguinus is a too good to be true kind of guy. 

Fulgrim on the other hand is the only Primarch who puts any significant thought into what he and his Astartes will do after the galaxy is conquered. 

Also if Gullieman actually killed Fulgrim that would be the gayest thing ever (and thats coming from someone whose Warband uses the colour pink!). But I don't think that that is in fact the case. I think the Daemon possessed Fulgrim now resides on a Daemon World in the Eye of Terror.

As for continuing to seek the destruction of the imperium, what I was suggesting is that, I think its correct to assume that they are all now decadent and self indulgent to the point of extreme. But ..... what could be more thrilling than casting the Corpse from his throne on Holy Terra? Surely that would be a truly transcendant experience that many EC Lords strive for.

A few things I stories I would love to see / am looking forward to seeing told in the BL are, the actions of the EC on Terra when they massacre the undefended populace, the battle between Gullieman and Fulgrim, the Cloning of Horus incident (I'm using that as part of the fluff for my Warband's Lord) and finally something new that adds to our tiny amout of knowledge about both the Legion and their patron diety Slaanesh.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> Fulgrim on the other hand is the only Primarch who puts any significant thought into what he and his Astartes will do after the galaxy is conquered.


I don't think thats the case at all. Horus is one who certainly comtemplated the future of the Legio Astartes and the Primarchs, Alpharius another. If I remember correctly even Dorn noted that the Great Crusade would never truly end, that the wars would last indefinitely - proving that he put significant thought into the issue. In fact I think most of the Primarchs would have had their thoughts focussed on such things towards the end of the Great Crusade.



D-A-C said:


> Also if Gullieman actually killed Fulgrim that would be the gayest thing ever


There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Guilliman slain Fulgrim. In fact after Fulgrim slits Guilliman's throat the Emperor's Children mysteriously disappear.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

slannesh doesnt want his/her children of lust and all things depraved getting killed gee he/she really does love his/her followers


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I think I can answere a few questions on EC.

For one the Breaking of EC into Warbands is thanks to Abbaddon, not Kharn. When Kharn did his shindig is what cause the WEs to crack. Its when Fabious Bile tried to clone Horus and had the EC steal his body is what caused EC to break. 

As for recruits I know Fabious Bile still has the Knowledge to work for EC and any other Legion looking for those improvements, but mostly I know Chapters like the Violaters in the novel Daemon World and in Soul Haunter are a whole Chapter that worships Slannesh. They exist in the EoTduring the 13th Black Crusade and in Soul Haunter they provided a Strike Cruiser I think to help the Despoiler. In Daemon World 4 companies led by a Dread provided the ultimate protection for the Slannesh Queen. Then there splits from the EC Warband like the Angels of Ecstasy that are VERY EC like but clearly apart as well.

The only thing for the EC love is to add some of the most Important events/characters in the HH/Post HH involve EC. 

EC was the smallest starting Legion at 200 SMs. Then they become some of the most successful after that.
So awsome was the EC at the art of war they received the Emperors personal Emblem.
The warning from Eldrad of Ulthwe was reacieved by EC, they knew before most what was going to happen, even if they did not listen.
Saul Tarvitz was responsible for the resistance after the Isstvan III masacre went down. He was also well respected by the Luna Wolves after Murder.
Lucius is one of the best swordsman in the Legions. He is also important in the hold out on Isstvan III with Saul and important with what happen on Murder. After the Heresy he is one of the top 5 baddest CSMs around.
Fabious Bile is reason the NMs exist. He is the reason Black Legion formed under Abbaddon and his Legion broke. He has to some extent uncover the Emperors secrets in genetic enginering. 
Fulgrim is responsible for Ferrus Manus death in single combat. He is also responsible as to why Guilliman is no longer leading the (overated) Ultras no more. 
The EC battling the WEs is what led to Kharn breaking his Legion. The EC stealing Horus Body is why Abbaddon took charge and rename the Sons of Horus into the Black Legion.

The EC are behind many Key Plots to the 40k fluff.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

My though on EC is that the current noise marines look like the furthest thing from a Slaanesh dedicated marine. Big bulky awkward looking? yeah that screams Slaanesh to me...... Also I never got why most of slaanesh's stuff has a bug look to it, still I guess its a lot easier then redesigning slightly slimmer more agile looking marines/possessed ect.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> why most of slaanesh's stuff has a bug look to it


the bug look? Giant, multifaceted, lidless eyes serve the purpose of maximizing the visual stimulation they receive...

After assembling 24 noise marines with sonic blasters I have to say that I agree, they are quite bulky for what you would consider... They also don't fit together at all!

Now the problems I've heard people have with Fulgrim is that Fabius Bile is creating noise marines (Eidolon) well before the heresy is underway. That was a change that didn't sit well with many


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> I think I can answere a few questions on EC.
> 
> For one the Breaking of EC into Warbands is thanks to Abaddon, not Kharn. When Kharn did his shindig is what cause the WEs to crack. Its when Fabious Bile tried to clone Horus and had the EC steal his body is what caused EC to break.
> 
> ...


I think you'v made some excellent and valid points here. It's easy I think, to forget just how pivitol the EC were in many of the key events of 40k history. The ones I'm most anxious to see written, are (1) More about the Daemonically Possessed Fulgrim, especially fighting Papa Smurf (2) The 'Clone Wars' between the EC and the Sons of Horus, what was the EC rationale behind stealing Horus? (3) Just a bit more post-heresy stuff, just to make them seem a bit more relevant



LukeValantine said:


> My though on EC is that the current noise marines look like the furthest thing from a Slaanesh dedicated marine. Big bulky awkward looking? yeah that screams Slaanesh to me...... Also I never got why most of slaanesh's stuff has a bug look to it, still I guess its a lot easier then redesigning slightly slimmer more agile looking marines/possessed ect.


Well don't forget Slaanesh is working with what he is given. If an Astartes is corrupted, he is still an Astartes (albiet with a few modifications). Also the bug look is a little hard to understand at times, but in one of those wierd ways, it just kind of works IMO.



clever handle said:


> the bug look? Giant, multifaceted, lidless eyes serve the purpose of maximizing the visual stimulation they receive...
> 
> After assembling 24 noise marines with sonic blasters I have to say that I agree, they are quite bulky for what you would consider... They also don't fit together at all!
> 
> Now the problems I've heard people have with Fulgrim is that Fabius Bile is creating noise marines (Eidolon) well before the heresy is underway. That was a change that didn't sit well with many


Nothing wrong with heresy era Noise Marines that I can see? The only fluff conflict is that they are supposed to be the pinnicle of decadence for Slaanesh Marine followers. And as you say they were around a bit too early for that to be the case. Also excellent explanation of the bug aspect of Slaanesh. Slaanesh can gift followers with extra sensory limbs, attachments etc or can have them secrete a musk that brings the mightiest warriors to their knees in rapturous joy and pain.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Still think the current Noise marine models are a little unslaaneshy.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

I actually liked the book and found Fulgrim to be a very dramatic character I greatly appreciated their quest for perfection. That being said I do not like the current EC form, makes me think of the eighties, guitars pink and stuff, it does not really fit in for me,


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## Count_the_Seven (May 19, 2010)

Fulgtrim is my favourite HH book and my army is Death Guard - I'm waiting on the DG book for the HH but even then, I may not find it better than Fulgrim IMO.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

piemelke said:


> That being said I do not like the current EC form, makes me think of the eighties, guitars pink and stuff, it does not really fit in for me,


It's a shame that particular stereotype has taken hold.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

For myself, the only thing that _I really_ disliked about "Fulgrim" was the name "Julius Kaisoron", given to one of the Captains. When I see direct parallels like that, I frown.

Other than that, though, I thought it was enjoyable story. A minor complaint (very minor compared to the above) was that Fulgrim and his men apparently suffered less from hubris (which can be found throughout heroic mythos) and more from mundane vanity ("How dare you critique my sculpting skills!"). By contrast, Lucius was a breath of fresh air: the author did a far better job depicting how the pursuit of excellence/perfection can take one down dark roads.

Where the modern Emperor's Children are concerned, I do regret the shift to the current color scheme and musical instrument-like weapons. Exotic and bizarre colorations should definitely be encouraged, but uniform pink-and-black is still... uniform. I was intrigued by the idea of armor-mounted speakers amplifying their screams and roars*, but the wielded weapons themselves (sonic blasters, etc.) just don't do anything for me.

* I've always wanted to write some fluff about an Emperor's Children champion**, and I always liked the idea of the sonic weaponry being speakers that don't just amplify their own voice, but the screams and wails of their victims as well. Some from the battle on hand, and some favorite pre-recorded samples. 

** (an unwilling one, who refuses to accept he has become a willing slave to Slaneesh, and denies himself one of his senses--taste, smell, etc.--at a time for a prolonged period... which of course only serves to heighten the others, and thus leave him just as susceptible--if not moreso--to the Prince's influences)


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> For myself, the only thing that _I really_ disliked about "Fulgrim" was the name "Julius Kaisoron", given to one of the Captains. When I see direct parallels like that, I frown.
> 
> Other than that, though, I thought it was enjoyable story. A minor complaint (very minor compared to the above) was that Fulgrim and his men apparently suffered less from hubris (which can be found throughout heroic mythos) and more from mundane vanity ("How dare you critique my sculpting skills!"). By contrast, Lucius was a breath of fresh air: the author did a far better job depicting how the pursuit of excellence/perfection can take one down dark roads.
> 
> ...


Some interesting points Phoebus. I don't get the Julius name reference, the only thing that hops to mind is Caesar? But then for me at least, the character was nothing similar to him, if that is the paralell your refering to.

The fall of Fulgrim and his legion was always going to be tricky to achieve well over one book. I think the writer did an admirable (if not exceptional) job at the task. Although I still feel it needed to be more adult orientated, but thats not his fault I suppose (and no I'm not talking about soft core porn writing lol). As for Lucius, he is my favourite character of the whole series and every scene he is in he always steals.

I have to agree with you that Slaanesh does provide the most interesting backdrop for potential stories. Unlike all the other Chaos Gods, IMO, he is the most multifaceted and therefore is open to the greatest degree of interpretation.

Finally I was thinking about the Sonic Weaponry angle on things and to be honest it kind of makes sense. This is because the Astartes are essentially asexual, they simply aren't designed to indulge in 'pleasures of the flesh', therefore when they fall, it has to be about warfare as they are literally humans forged into the ultimate weapons.


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## GhostDog (Apr 16, 2010)

piemelke said:


> I actually liked the book and found Fulgrim to be a very dramatic character I greatly appreciated their quest for perfection. That being said I do not like the current EC form, makes me think of the eighties, guitars pink and stuff, it does not really fit in for me,


You think the current EC form reminds you of the eighties. You should see the first Noise Marines, their weapons actually looked like electric guitars.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

D-A-C, yes, it was just the name that bugged me. Super-obvious connections like that to historical figures just strike me as both unoriginal and unnecessary. "A Thousand Sons" was a great book, for example, that made me roll my eyes when Ahriman was revealed to be an "Achaemenid" (the name of the Persian royaly dynasty whose rule Alexander the Great ended).

As far as sonic weaponry is concerned, as I said... it all depends on the type. Armour-mounted speakers, for example, strike me as appropriate; organ pipes, etc... not so much.

To each their own, though!


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

What buggs me is that the EC are completely neglected in present times. No 40k novels about them as either the main characters or the villains. Do they even exist in the 40th millenium?


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## SSIRE (Sep 24, 2010)

Tarvitz, or whatever his name was, the polar opposite to Lucius, he was a well written character. He showed what the legion was supposed to aspire to! Without him I believe that Lucius wouldn't have been as great a character. He would have just been another super human with an ego and a sword, nothing special in a legion full of them. When Lucius is played against Tarvitz the book becomes really interesting, and makes both characters shine.

I for one am glad that they havent expanded upon the 40th milleniums legions. We as the players are the ones who are writing the stories about what these factions have done. I dont really want to be told the EC did this, which makes many of my "expeditions" as an EC redundant. 

Another point to note is that the EC are not as large as they once were. Many marines have splintered off to form their own factions and warbands. Trying to take this into account to write new fluff might cause teething problems, because not much about post heresy children has been set in stone.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

forkmaster said:


> What buggs me is that the EC are completely neglected in present times. No 40k novels about them as either the main characters or the villains. Do they even exist in the 40th millenium?


You mean the 41st millennium, and yes they do- an Emperor's Children warband were one of Eisenhorn's enemies in the Eisenhorn trilogy.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

I am not a big post-heresy fan of EC.
I think that Slaanesh is the most tempting God. He pretty much is the definition of temptation and just doing everything you want to with no remorse or regret.

I am not saying he is the most powerfull, but if I had to pick, Slaanesh is the most appealing to mortals.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

probably becasue as the god of vice, sin and everything else he/she does appeal to the human mentality as a whole.
Tarvitz could only ever have worked as Lucius's one time best friend, he was serious and accepted he never would rise further (until Istvaan anyway when he proved he was more then even he thought he was) and Lucius was ambitious and in a strange way these two worked as friends, occassionally saul would kick lucius arse and vica versa


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> You mean the 41st millennium, and yes they do- an Emperor's Children warband were one of Eisenhorn's enemies in the Eisenhorn trilogy.


Oh really? Then I got to get started reading that sooner or later (got a bunch of books to read.


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## SnoopyChicken (Sep 23, 2010)

forkmaster said:


> Oh really? Then I got to get started reading that sooner or later (got a bunch of books to read.


Just reading the omnibus now, best BL book Ive ever read


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Is it Fulgrim whose in charge of the Emperor's Children, has the daemon realsed him and elevated him to daemon prince level?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Is it Fulgrim whose in charge of the Emperor's Children, has the daemon realsed him and elevated him to daemon prince level?


What in the Eisenhorn omnibus? No it's just an Emperor's Children warband that's all, Fulgrim is still very much a possessed Primarch (not a Daemon Primarch/Prince).


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Baron Spikey said:


> What in the Eisenhorn omnibus? No it's just an Emperor's Children warband that's all, Fulgrim is still very much a possessed Primarch (not a Daemon Primarch/Prince).


No I just mean in general, is Fulgrim in control of himself again and risen to Daemonhood or is he still under the control of the one from the sword? I saw a picture of him in collected vision and he looks like a Daemon Prince.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> No I just mean in general, is Fulgrim in control of himself again and risen to Daemonhood or is he still under the control of the one from the sword? I saw a picture of him in collected vision and he looks like a Daemon Prince.


That would just be the daemon shaping his physical shell to better suit it's needs and desires. It's presumed that Fulgrim is still possessed by the same daemon, but he is still referenced as a 'Daemon Primarch' (in the codex for example).

The primary difference would be that whilst the other Daemon Primarchs have been reborn as daemons, Fulgrim was possessed by a daemon who took complete control over Fulgrim's body and soul.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> That would just be the daemon shaping his physical shell to better suit it's needs and desires. It's presumed that Fulgrim is still possessed by the same daemon, but he is still referenced as a 'Daemon Primarch' (in the codex for example).
> 
> The primary difference would be that whilst the other Daemon Primarchs have been reborn as daemons, Fulgrim was possessed by a daemon who took complete control over Fulgrim's body and soul.


Actually makes me feel a little sorry for Fulgrim now.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Actually makes me feel a little sorry for Fulgrim now.


That's the tradegy of _Fulgrim_ for ya. :cray:


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Seems to me the only sensible Primarch to come out of the Heresy was Alpharius/Omegon cause afaik if they are still about they won't of become Daemon Princes. Imo becoming a Daemon Prince actually makes you worse, as although you're immortal, you'll be stuck in the warp for ages.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Seems to me the only sensible Primarch to come out of the Heresy was Alpharius/Omegon cause afaik if they are still about they won't of become Daemon Princes. Imo becoming a Daemon Prince actually makes you worse, as although you're immortal, you'll be stuck in the warp for ages.


Why is that a bad thing?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Why is that a bad thing?


What's bad about being stuck in the warp for ages? Well you're stuck in the warp ages doing nothing, although I guess since times bends in there what might be 10 minutes for you might be 10000 years or something. I'd just prefer to be able to do what I want and not be imprisoned in the eye of terror, I'd rather be out there fighting or planning some scheme like the Alpha Legion seem to be doing.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> What's bad about being stuck in the warp for ages? Well you're stuck in the warp ages doing nothing, although I guess since times bends in there what might be 10 minutes for you might be 10000 years or something.


Time is irrelevant to immortal beings. As humans, from our perspective it would be horrible to be confined to a particular space for a thousand years, let alone eternity. But Daemon Princes are not human, far from it. They become one with the immaterial, removed from space and time - constantly following their whims with untold power at their fingertips. 



Words_of_Truth said:


> I'd just prefer to be able to do what I want and not be imprisoned in the eye of terror


Their not imprisoned in the Eye of Terror, they are bound to the warp itself - not a single warp storm. 



Words_of_Truth said:


> I'd rather be out there fighting or planning some scheme like the Alpha Legion seem to be doing.


There is infinitely more diverse opportunities to be followed within the warp I would say, especially by involving yourself in the Great Game.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Time is irrelevant to immortal beings. As humans, from our perspective it would be horrible to be confined to a particular space for a thousand years, let alone eternity. But Daemon Princes are not human, far from it. They become one with the immaterial, removed from space and time - constantly following their whims with untold power at their fingertips.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But the great game is eternal, I'd want to accomplish something that actually has a bearing on "real life" I dunno maybe it's because I'm mortal and never understand it but I see the warp as an endless waste of time and becoming a daemon prince which binds you do that plain is torture rather than glorious.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> But the great game is eternal, I'd want to accomplish something that actually has a bearing on "real life" I dunno maybe it's because I'm mortal and never understand it


I think thats the point. Were mortal, we don't have the mindset that daemons do. 



Words_of_Truth said:


> but I see the warp as an endless waste of time and becoming a daemon prince which binds you do that plain is torture rather than glorious.


You could quite easily say the same regarding the material realm. Arn't all our deeds and accomplishments ultimately in vain? Even the greatest empires will eventually collapse, nothing created by a mortal will last indefinitely. Where as the warp is different, firstly there are the chaos gods - eternal deities who rule over warpspace. Even powerful enough daemons can form their own realms which can potentially last for eternity. 

Being a Daemon Prince bound to the warp frees you from all restraints and allows you to exist outside time and space as an immortal. But ultimately daemons can also effect and influence the material realm to great extents, and in most cases more than mere mortals can.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey everyone. What do you guys think of the new Dark Eldar fluff vis a vis Slaanesh?

I think its interesting that when they die, they no longer automatically get sucked into oblivion (Slaanesh's loving bosom or bosoms......nevermind)

I also like how they explained that the Eldar had been able to think of alot of things long before the Fall that would later aid them significantly in their current predicament.

In saying that .... and I haven't read the entire Codex (so please correct me if I'm wrong) but that they are terrified of 'She who Thirsts' hasn't really been emphasised enough IMO and I was also suprised that due to all this newer fluff describing their knowledge of the universe etc they aren't really battling Slaanesh and have just kind of accepted that, yes, their souls will one day become Slaanesh's plaything. 

Anyway just some random thoughts for the moment, but I'd love to hear some other people's take on the Slaanesh/DE dynamic.


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## Zakath (Feb 23, 2011)

> they aren't really battling Slaanesh and have just kind of accepted that, yes, their souls will one day become Slaanesh's plaything.


That's actually pretty well said.. I hadn't thought of it that way but now that you said it, I see how they are depicted as thinking that they'll just got to live life to its fullest - as long as it lasts - since in death there'll be Slaanesh.

It still bugs me how their (the Dark Eldar) souls are supposedly hanging around and waiting for resurrection and not immediately sucked into Warp when they die.



> Imo becoming a Daemon Prince actually makes you worse, as although you're immortal, you'll be stuck in the warp for ages.


Oh wouldn't it be grand to be elevated to stand next to your chosen god and battle aside him in what is an all-important fight for domination? And the awards a Daemon Prince receives must be something glorious next to what is given to even the greatest mortal followers (even if useful, only momentary puppets and slaves).


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Zakath said:


> Oh wouldn't it be grand to be elevated to stand next to your chosen god and battle aside him in what is an all-important fight for domination? And the awards a Daemon Prince receives must be something glorious next to what is given to even the greatest mortal followers (even if useful, only momentary puppets and slaves).


You're also prone to dying in an instant because your god grows tired of you, you're also bound to your gods wishes and not your own. I prefer a certain degree of independence.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> You're also prone to dying in an instant because your god grows tired of you, you're also bound to your gods wishes and not your own. I prefer a certain degree of independence.


That's the whole point of how awesome it is to be a Daemon Prince.

You HAVE independence. You are not bound by the same rules as regular warp based Daemons, you can go between the material and warp realms. 

You actions aren't guided directly by your patron deity, instead, the actions that you choose to undertake end up as being in the service of that deity anyway.

So you decide, I am going to indulge my senses by killing the royal family of a world in realspace, and that ends up serving Slaanesh anyway.

Or you gather loads of warriors into your service, and besiege a planet so that you can turn it into YOUR OWN personal daemon world, that still serves your patron anyway.

Daemon Princes are also immortal, they can be banished, but they can always come back again in a determined amount of time.

Like I said, Daemon Princes can have all the fun they want in realspace, and also take part in the Great (everlasting) Game in the warp.

Thats why its such a highly sought after prize.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

D-A-C said:


> That's the whole point of how awesome it is to be a Daemon Prince.
> 
> You HAVE independence. You are not bound by the same rules as regular warp based Daemons, you can go between the material and warp realms.
> 
> ...


I dunno, you need to be summoned into existence, while you're vastly superior to common soldiers, there's a hell of a lot more things designed to banish you. I suppose it's easier to understand if you actually have the mindset, but I'd currently prefer being mortal and being my own king rather than a servant of a god who can easily change its mind. 

If I could be a Chaos Undivided Daemon Prince then I'd go for it, a lot less likely of falling out of favour and a lot more freedom, without the perceived flaws in being a Daemon Prince dedicated to a god I have.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> That's the whole point of how awesome it is to be a Daemon Prince.
> 
> You HAVE independence. You are not bound by the same rules as regular warp based Daemons, you can go between the material and warp realms.
> 
> ...


Interesting outlook on the whole thing but tell me this, do you think a DP can one day decide to revert back to their human/mortal forms and get the green light from the four chaos powers?


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Interesting outlook on the whole thing but tell me this, do you think a DP can one day decide to revert back to their human/mortal forms and get the green light from the four chaos powers?


Why would you want to ever revert from being immortal to being mortal?

There is no concievable reason why anyone would say, 'hey these past 10,000 years have been fun, but I want to go back to being a regular old human/Astartes thank you very much'.

Once you have the type of power of a Daemon Prince, you will want more and more, your own planet, army, you'll want to be a mini-God in your own right, and to be honest thats what Daemon Prince's are already.

So by furthering your own power whether it be knowledge of sorcery, killing the best fighters in the galaxy, indulging all the experiences of the universe or spreading and creating new diseases, all those things advance YOUR power and that of your patron God as well.

Being a Daemon Prince is win+win. No-one would ever want to give that up.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> Why would you want to ever revert from being immortal to being mortal?


Why is irrelevant, I just wanted to know if you thought they could get the permission.



D-A-C said:


> There is no concievable reason why anyone would say, 'hey these past 10,000 years have been fun, but I want to go back to being a regular old human/Astartes thank you very much'.


But to answer your question as to why anyone would want to revert back to being mortal, it's not as if the Primarchs/DPS knew off the bat what was in store for them at the end of the line of their servitude to Chaos. I'm sure they expected something completely different pre-transformation.



D-A-C said:


> Once you have the type of power of a Daemon Prince, you will want more and more, your own planet, army, you'll want to be a mini-God in your own right, and to be honest thats what Daemon Prince's are already.


All of these things were obtainable for the DP's in their mortal lives. What do they get that's so special? It just all points to them being misled into what they have become.



D-A-C said:


> Being a Daemon Prince is win+win. No-one would ever want to give that up.


But they're still in servitude and still in positions of power just as they were in their mortal lives. What's changed other than their appearances and physical/psychic abilities?


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

I wish I was a demon prince, then I could have nice things...


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Why is irrelevant, I just wanted to know if you thought they could get the permission.


No, it's an irreversible transformation.





Malus Darkblade said:


> But to answer your question as to why anyone would want to revert back to being mortal, it's not as if the Primarchs/DPS knew off the bat what was in store for them at the end of the line of their servitude to Chaos. I'm sure they expected something completely different pre-transformation.


If you've been serving the Chaos Gods for a long enough period of time to ascend to daemoncy, you'd know the rewards and punishments of Chaos to know what to expect in terms of benefit. It's not as if they've been striving for this astronomical goal having no idea what it may mean in the end.





Malus Darkblade said:


> All of these things were obtainable for the DP's in their mortal lives. What do they get that's so special? It just all points to them being misled into what they have become.


Massive amounts of power, still continuing to be in service of their god(s). Where's the misinformation here? The Champions worship their Gods and serve them willingly, they enjoy serving them for the most part.





Malus Darkblade said:


> But they're still in servitude and still in positions of power just as they were in their mortal lives. What's changed other than their appearances and physical/psychic abilities?


Immortality, plain and simple. They get to live forever in a universe where any mortal can die for no real reason at any given time.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I cant think of one BL novel with EC in it... in any form. Daemon World and to degree Soul Hunter featured Violaters that are Slannesh Worshipping CSMs but no EC anywhere... whats up with that?


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> I cant think of one BL novel with EC in it... in any form. Daemon World and to degree Soul Hunter featured Violaters that are Slannesh Worshipping CSMs but no EC anywhere... whats up with that?


 That novel is garbage, I couldn't even read the whole thing and I've read some shitty novels in my time. Y'know, being in the school system and all.


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

Is it safe to say the the pink and black colours of EC are actually incorrect fluff-wise? They paint their armor vibrant colors, and while pink is very vibrant, so are other colours.

Technically speaking, should EC be painted in a variety of vibrant, bright colours? Even to the point of scraping uniformity? If you ask me, I think that would be pretty cool.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> Is it safe to say the the pink and black colours of EC are actually incorrect fluff-wise? They paint their armor vibrant colors, and while pink is very vibrant, so are other colours.
> 
> Technically speaking, should EC be painted in a variety of vibrant, bright colours? Even to the point of scraping uniformity? If you ask me, I think that would be pretty cool.


They aren't incorrect, as fluff wise thats what the colours are (according to the index astartes) but it also says they like bright, loud and vibrant colours that would lack all sense of uniformity.

So in a way, both statements are true.

What I did for a few test models from my old CSM army was something similar to this:

http://cyphercodicer2.deviantart.com/art/Emperor-s-children-concept-33802933

Basically varying shades of pink and purple. I just felt it looked better. Plus, pink and purple shades are really associated with Slaanesh, so an army that was primarily green, yellow etc would always be confused with an other.

So my advice to sum up is, lots of shades of pinks, purples with Gold and Silver trims.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

To the matter of the downsides of being a DP it has been well established that like regular Daemons they become incredibly restricted in where they can go freely, for they are dependent on warp energy to remain stable. Hence anything short of a temporary instance of possession or warp storms is insufficient to maintain them indefinably. Therefore they are prisoners in the warp. Also joining with the warp gods causes ones original ambitions and goals, and even personality to eventually fade into those of the god they worship.

In fact the only time you see a DP acting entirely in their own interests.


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

I was wondering if anyone knew anything about Lucius' personal bodyguards - the Cohors Nasicae.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

As I understand it from Battle of the Fang, once you become a DP youre stuck that way, or according to Magnus "you will never be fully flesh and [bone] again". Cant quote entire correct but you get the big picture. Its kinda like chaos spawn, both is a gift from the gods, one way what everyone seeks and the other what everyone fears. What I wonder is if a CSM can convert from following one God to another?



Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> I was wondering if anyone knew anything about Lucius' personal bodyguards - the Cohors Nasicae.


Never heard about and as a EC fanatic I am highly interested in hearing more about them.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> I was wondering if anyone knew anything about Lucius' personal bodyguards - the Cohors Nasicae.


I wanna know more as well!!! I never heard of that one either


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

I will see what I can find. Here is a picture on the Emperor's Children page on the Warhammer 40k Wiki. As well, on the German page of the Lexicanium, they have a small blurb dedicated to them. As far as these two things go, that is all I know.

Allegedly they are in Galaxy in Flames if anyone has that book as it is listed as one of the sources.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Hey guys I'm back :laugh:
I really liked the novel Fulgrim and when i first read about them (when I also first got into Warhammer 40K, I started with teh heresy books) I really liked how "self-righteuous" they were. I guess that would be the term to use. They would celebrate their vitories before they happened and they were obsessed with perfection, which portrayed what the Imperium strove for IMO.

The only part of Fulgrim I didn't like was when Fulgrim leaves Ferrus's ship after they fight. Fulgrim knows that Ferrus wont join yet he dosen't want to kill his friend. I understand what the author was trying to get across (that he still had some sense of control inside him and he was not completley in favor of the daemon) but I think it was done poorly.

Horus: Hey Fulgrim did you have that "chat" with Ferrus yet?

Fulgrim: Yeah I did. He didn't want in.

Horus: How unfortunate. You did take care of him didn't you?

Fulgrim: Not really. He's still alive and might be planning an assault against us.

Horus: -___________- (<- wtf, really? face)


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> I will see what I can find. Here is a picture on the Emperor's Children page on the Warhammer 40k Wiki. As well, on the German page of the Lexicanium, they have a small blurb dedicated to them. As far as these two things go, that is all I know.
> 
> Allegedly they are in Galaxy in Flames if anyone has that book as it is listed as one of the sources.


They are probably part of his assault squads. Now when Galaxy in Flames was mentioned I remember them slightly. I think there should be some more coverage about the EC after the Issvaan V drop-site massacre since so much happened during the AoD.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Didn't they get wiped out? I mean Lucius left Tarvitz and turned traitor by himself without anyone's help.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hate to break it to you all, but in no way does Lucius have a bodyguard unit in _Galaxy In Flames_.

He has barely distinguished himself by that point so why would he have a personal set of bodyguards?

Plus his personality type would mean that he wouldn't enjoy having them, and would most likely challenge and kill them in combat to prove how awesome he is.



SPOILER

I thought a cool part in _Fulgrim_ was when at the end he recognised that Fulgrim was different, i.e. possessed by a Daemon, and the Daemon Fulgrim gave him the Laer Sword (minus its daemonic essence of course!!!).

I just thought that was awesome, and to be honest the whole characterisation of Lucius so far in the series has been nothing short of amazing.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> Hate to break it to you all, but in no way does Lucius have a bodyguard unit in _Galaxy In Flames_.
> 
> He has barely distinguished himself by that point so why would he have a personal set of bodyguards?
> 
> ...


No I think he commanded a company of assault marines which turned into bodyguards, but I might be mistaken. Yeah, the EC have so far had great characters.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

forkmaster said:


> No I think he commanded a company of assault marines which turned into bodyguards, but I might be mistaken. Yeah, the EC have so far had great characters.


Maybe he did, maybe he didn't.


So far in the Horus Heresy series no such depiction has been given.

SPOILER

So far he betrayed his comrades on Istavan, which means he could only have aquired such a company after he returned to service with his Legion.

But like I said, no such event has been detailed and explored.

Also, for such a theory to be true, he AND his assault marines would have to survive the events of the Heresy and long after. 

He, as a favoured Champion of Slaanesh and a highly skilled combatant, would have no problem with such a task, but for his company to have made it through such events unscathed is highly unlikely.

We also have the fluff that suggest he took extensive part in internal one vs one combat tournaments within his Legion (that's how he was first brought back to life), so it is highly unlikely he would have let a group of worthy adversaries (his boodyguards) survive, as surely he would have challenged them.

Now, he may indeed have some form of bodyguards, but I would imagine they would not be long term bodyguards, as I imagine Lucius to be something of a loner, doing as he pleases, when he pleases, searching the galaxy for the best opponents and fights.

Therefore I would imagine he is probably currently taking part in the Black Crusade on Cadia, with his current bodyguards (perhaps).

Thats just my opinion of his fluff anyway.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> Maybe he did, maybe he didn't.
> 
> 
> So far in the Horus Heresy series no such depiction has been given.
> ...


From the CSM Codex 4th ed (Page. 54).

"He lead his bodyguard of Assault Marines with such passion and skill that Fulgrim honoured him with the rank of Lord Commander." However this is written before it mentions that they were sent to repell Horus rebellion and that he had fallen. He did lead them, but since Lucius still was a regular captain before Isstvan V, it probably would mean he became a Lord Commander after Isstvan V and had a retinue of Assault Marines. 

We know there have beebn major differences between codices and HH novels, but unless something says otherwise, I would take that as a fact.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

You know what I like best about EC? They had such important rolls in the whole Heresy. 

1) Fulgrim is the first and only Possessed Primarch.He was Traitor really before Horus. Him and Logar being most likely the first.

2) We have 2 Vimportanttant characters that progress up into the time lineline. Fabious Bile and Lucius, both EC.

3) EC was there at one of the more important locations and plot twist of the HH. The planet Murder.

4) EC are the only Legion good enough to wear the Emps own Symbol.

5) Fulgrim was responsible for the first death of the God Primarchs. Manus.

6) EC are one of the first to know of coming of the HH thanks to none other than himself Eldrad of Ulthwe!

7) EC are Responsible for the forming of the greatest Legion in the EoT. The Black Legion.

8) EC are Partly Responsible for the breaking of the Legion WEs.

So EC have been the center of alot during the HH and Scouring time periods. Unfortunatly they are very much ignored in the current 40K timeline.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

forkmaster,

I completely agree. It's obvious that this is simply a matter of the Codex having been written prior to "Fulgrim". Don't they mention in one of the novels that Lucius' friendship with Saul Tarvitz is the thing that keeps him from being accepted in the Legion's conspiracy? Once they realized that he was suitable--at Isstvan III, when he turns on Tarvitz and Demeter--he would have been suitable for promotion to Lord Commander (all else being equal) and getting his own bodyguard.

Warlock,



> 1) Fulgrim is the first and only Possessed Primarch.He was Traitor really before Horus. Him and Logar being most likely the first.


I thought Fulgrim got the Laer blade after Horus was corrupted (in the events of "False Gods").



> 6) EC are one of the first to know of coming of the HH thanks to none other than himself Eldrad of Ulthwe!


Again, I think Alpharius and his Legion were informed of the Heresy earlier than that, right?



> 7) EC are Responsible for the forming of the greatest Legion in the EoT. The Black Legion.
> 
> 8) EC are Partly Responsible for the breaking of the Legion WEs.


I'd say they're far more responsible for #8 than #7.



> So EC have been the center of alot during the HH and Scouring time periods. Unfortunatly they are very much ignored in the current 40K timeline.


Well, you have to remember that the stories, novels, etc., have to be kept within a reasonable age-appropriate standard. And the Emperor's Children are probably the most "mature" (as in the rating) Legions... in the sense that they take everything other Chaos Legions do, and add a healthy amount of drugs and (implied) rape to it.

Cheers,
P.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Phoebus said:


> Warlock,
> 
> 
> I thought Fulgrim got the Laer blade after Horus was corrupted (in the events of "False Gods")..


I Might have to re read that book again. I swore Horus was just elevated to Warmaster when that happen. Im pretty sure thats when Saul Tarvitz and Lucius just left Murder... or before... one of the two. I know Horus was pure before and during the planet Murder ordeal. And Fulgrim had the blade already before that.



Phoebus said:


> Again, I think Alpharius and his Legion were informed of the Heresy earlier than that, right?.


I belived Horus was already named Warmaster. Also it should be noted that the Alpha Legion were not really Traitors at all. They join Horus to save theunfortunatelyortunatly they were defeated and the Galaxy is slowly turning to crap. Then they became full blown traitors.




Phoebus said:


> I'd say they're far more responsible for #8 than #7.


Well it was the EC stealing the Horus body for the Cloning of it that cause Abaddon to break the EC Legion, get the body back, unite what was left of the Sons of Horus, and form the Black Legion. All becuase of EC stealing the Horus Corpse and fighting his Legion.

Vice versa the WE legion broke up cause of Kharn. I say Partly EC for dragging them into the stalemate that cause Kharn to crack.



Phoebus said:


> Well, you have to remember that the stories, novels, etc., have to be kept within a reasonable age-appropriate standard. And the Emperor's Children are probably the most "mature" (as in the rating) Legions... in the sense that they take everything other Chaos Legions do, and add a healthy amount of drugs and (implied) rape to it.
> 
> Cheers.



As it should. I want my Lucius porn video damnit. Where he fights Lilith naked in a sexy sword fight fuck fest opcorn:.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> forkmaster,
> 
> I completely agree. It's obvious that this is simply a matter of the Codex having been written prior to "Fulgrim". Don't they mention in one of the novels that Lucius' friendship with Saul Tarvitz is the thing that keeps him from being accepted in the Legion's conspiracy? Once they realized that he was suitable--at Isstvan III, when he turns on Tarvitz and Demeter--he would have been suitable for promotion to Lord Commander (all else being equal) and getting his own bodyguard.
> 
> ...


That would be my guess yes. Tarvitz held him back, and when he got all the glory instead of Lucius, who in his own opinion deserved it better, which was the main reason why he betrayed them.

If Im not mistaken Laer took place before Murder, which would take place before False Gods. I remember Lucius and Tarvitz fighting in the Laer and then they are sent away with Lord Commander Eidolon to screw up real bad.

Alpharius would be turning before Fulgrim, as I would expect Perturabo and Night Haunter. I would say it all happened at the same time. Thats why the Heresy was so effective. 

And I think it sucks that they dont get more screen-time. Look at Eisenhorn where Dan managed to get a good example of Emperors Children without the rape and drugs. Sons of Dorn, which I knew is a very hated book, had the ending featuring them at least.

Just look at DowII, Slaanesh is the only one not being apart of the games, having a champion of its own.



Warlock in Training said:


> I Might have to re read that book again. I swore Horus was just elevated to Warmaster when that happen. Im pretty sure thats when Saul Tarvitz and Lucius just left Murder... or before... one of the two. I know Horus was pure before and during the planet Murder ordeal. And Fulgrim had the blade already before that.
> 
> I belived Horus was already named Warmaster. Also it should be noted that the Alpha Legion were not really Traitors at all. They join Horus to save theunfortunatelyortunatly they were defeated and the Galaxy is slowly turning to crap. Then they became full blown traitors.
> 
> ...


What I remember, and correct me if Im wrong, is that when Horus has fallen and meets up with Fulgrim, Fulgrim (or Fabius Bile) is given the blade that felled Horus as a sign of an alliance. By then he had already his other blade and his Emperors Children is wondering why he isnt using the blade Manus gave him.

Emperors Children I would also say played a big part here and there, since they are most mentioned, kinda like the actual children playing all over the place. Fulgrim has the highest Primarch killcount with 2 at least. Horus and Roboute are the only ones coming on a second place with one each (if now Alpharius actually was killed, which I doubt).


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

You know I forgot how Fulgrim not only killed the first Primarch, he killed the most Important one after the HH. :laugh:


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

He didn't the Daemon within him did.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> He didn't the Daemon within him did.


For all intents and purpuse the Daemon is Fulgrim V1.2


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Warlock in Training said:


> For all intents and purpuse the Daemon is Fulgrim V1.2


Except Fulgrim wasn't in control of his own body or mind and the daemon had "buffed" him as well. I'd say the daemon was more responsible.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Exactly. It was a multi-limbed Daemon who had mutated Fulgrim's body to his own ends. In no objective way can one say Fulgrim beat Guilliman. He wasn't mentally there, the Daemon in question wasn't even using Fulgrim's normal Primarch form, and he was using a blade that (IIRC) needed to just nick you to eventually kill you.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah, I'd even say he wasn't responsible for killing Mannus either as he didn't have the will within him to do it, only the daemon taking full control over him made it happen.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Is the EC Primarch still called Fulgrim? Yes. Is he still considered thier Primarch? Nothing has said otherwise so Yes.

Hes Fulgrim. Hes controlled by a Daemon, blah, blah blah.... doesnt changed the fact hes Fulgrim Name, title, Position, and Bad assness.

And he may not have Kiiled Manus, but he BEATEN him twice!


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Warlock in Training said:


> Is the EC Primarch still called Fulgrim? Yes. Is he still considered thier Primarch? Nothing has said otherwise so Yes.
> 
> Hes Fulgrim. Hes controlled by a Daemon, blah, blah blah.... doesnt changed the fact hes Fulgrim Name, title, Position, and Bad assness.
> 
> And he may not have Kiiled Manus, but he BEATEN him twice!


His body was only a shell, it's his actions that counted and in the "important" events he was in control of neither, so no he wasn't really Fulgrim he was possessed and had no control of what happened. 

Even Horus doesn't acknowledge him as Fulgrim (and nor does Lorgar if you've read the small extraction ADB has released for his mini novel)


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## harlokin (Jun 3, 2011)

The impression I got from "Fulgrim" was that the Primarch of the Emperor's Children was in control of his actions (albeit increasingly influenced by the Daemon in the Laer sword), until the battle of Istvann where he relinquishes control over his body to the Daemon. Could be wrong though.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

harlokin said:


> The impression I got from "Fulgrim" was that the Primarch of the Emperor's Children was in control of his actions (albeit increasingly influenced by the Daemon in the Laer sword), until the battle of Istvann where he relinquishes control over his body to the Daemon. Could be wrong though.


I think you hit a big fat bullseye with that one


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Exactly, he had no control when he killed Mannus or badly wounded Poppa Smurf.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Exactly, he had no control when he killed Mannus or badly wounded Poppa Smurf.


But he was forced to watch the daemon's actions at all times since his sould was is trapped in his on body


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

But he had no control, it wasn't Fulgrim doing the work, it was the daemon.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> But he had no control, it wasn't Fulgrim doing the work, it was the daemon.


I am beginning to think you and I are arguing the same thing. I already said YES it was the Daemon that Possessed Fulgrim who did everything HH there after. However the Daemon taken over Fulgrims Identity and Body. The Daemon IS NOW Fulgrim. Fulgrim is now the Daemon. Theres no distinction between the two. If there was then Konrad Cruze and Night Haunter would be 2 different beings. There not. Same with Fulgrim and the Slaneesh Daemon. Fulgrim was the Primarch and now the Daemon is Fulgrim. Like Peter Parker and Ben Reilly are BOTH Spider Man. (Anyone with Marvel Comic knowledge :laugh I cant explain it any better.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> The Daemon IS NOW Fulgrim. Fulgrim is now the Daemon. Theres no distinction between the two.


Yes there is. The Daemon acknowledges he is NOT Fulgrim to Horus. They are not an amalgam of a being, a greater whole beneficial to both if you will (see, for instance, the Icon Bearer in the Word Bearers Trilogy).



> If there was then Konrad Cruze and Night Haunter would be 2 different beings. There not. Same with Fulgrim and the Slaneesh Daemon.


No, not at all. Konrad Curze is ONE person that potentially suffers from split personalities. Fulgrim is possessed, his personality is buried, and his body - which is no longer even a Primarch's body - is controlled by another entity.



> Fulgrim was the Primarch and now the Daemon is Fulgrim. Like Peter Parker and Ben Reilly are BOTH Spider Man. (Anyone with Marvel Comic knowledge :laugh I cant explain it any better.


That's just two people using the same nickname. By that logic, there is only one Primarch, even though twenty different individuals used that title.

Cheers,
P.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

OMG I guess it fall under deaf ears. My last questions is what do you call the current Daemon Primarch of the EC? Whats his name? Seriously, its not clicking?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Warlock in Training said:


> OMG I guess it fall under deaf ears. My last questions is what do you call the current Daemon Primarch of the EC? Whats his name? Seriously, its not clicking?


The Daemon is only using Fulgrim's shell though, Fulgrim isn't in control of his body or his actions. I don't know the Daemon's name though but what I do know that he hasn't "merged" with Fulgrim, Fulgrim's conscience is still in there (at least during the heresy) they are not "one being" they are two "spirits" in one body and the daemon has control. It's not like the possessed in The First Heretic.

Once Fulgrim couldn't bring himself to finish Mannus off he ran away scared and let the daemon take over and afaik it's still like that until I read otherwise.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> OMG I guess it fall under deaf ears. My last questions is what do you call the current Daemon Primarch of the EC? Whats his name? Seriously, its not clicking?


You're selling a false concept, brother.

You argued that *Fulgrim* was central, and cool, and pivotal. *Fulgrim* wasn't. A Daemon people *thought* was Fulgrim was all that.

Fulgrim was an ambitious, talented, perfection-seeking Primarch who, due to a twist of fate, was forced to operate under the direction of one of his brothers for much - if not most - of his career. One day, before the Heresy even started, he found a sword that affected how he thought, what he felt, and what decisions he made until he was no longer himself at all. Past Isstvan V, there's no point in attributing ANYTHING to Fulgrim, since he isn't Fulgrim but an impostor using his name. Even before that battle, you can't really attribute many of his actions to him since he was empowered and coerced by an alien persona.

Imagine if it was a known fact that Alexander the Great really died when he was twenty three, after only one major battle. Instead, we came to discover that an impostor took over his place, and carried out all his famous conquests. Now, his warriors might have THOUGHT this impostor was Alexander, and may very well have considered the person they thought was their king to be the most pivotal person in the world. We, however, knowing the truth, would have no reason to assume that Alexander was so pivotal. We would know it was the impostor who was the true genius, the true conqueror, etc. We might be called daft if we argued otherwise.

Nor would it be any better if we tried to compare someone impersonating a dead person to a schizophrenic individual who acted differently depending on his mental state. :wink:

Cheers,
P.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Where did I EVER say their one being? I already posted Fulgrim was the Primarch before Possession. Now the Daemon is for ALL Intents and Purpose Fulgrim. 

He took his....
1) Name
2) Title
3) Rank
4) Body
5) Identity

That makes him Fulgrim _Now_. Hes/it is not the original Fulgrim but the Daemon now is Fulgrim. Holy Shyster... I dont see why you keep arguing and misreading my explanations. I SAID the samething as you.


I dont care anymore. You can try to persaude me Im wrong when Im not. Its a fact the Daemon is called and now Fulgrim. The Primarch was Fulgrim. The Daemon IS Fulgrim now. Duh.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

How the hell are they the same person when they don't even ACT, THINK, or FEEL THE SAME WAY? :biggrin:


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Phoebus said:


> How the hell are they the same person when they don't even ACT, THINK, or FEEL THE SAME WAY? :biggrin:


:laugh: But that what Im saying, they're not the same person. Its a different Fulgrim. BUT still Fulgrim for the purpose of DP Primarch and Title. No matter if the Daemon is in charge and wearing the original Primarchs Body. The Daemons name is Fulgrim now. Also for everyone except the other Primarchs The Current Fulgrim is still the same old Fulgrim. Just different Soul incharge of the Body and Prestige. Just Like Pete and Ben both taking the Name and History of Spider Man.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

EXACTLY.

If anyone except Horus, Lorgar, or someone else who knows Fulgrim is not Fulgrim said what you were saying, it would be a fair statement. Because _they don't know any better._

If Horus, Lorgar, or you make that statement, though, it no longer makes sense. At all. because _you know better._


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Holy jeez guys, what an argument to be having.

Its a very simple concept.

There once was a Primarch called Fulgrim.

He found a sword that possesed a Greater Daemon of Slaanesh.

This Greater Daemon eventually would overpower and corrupt Fulgrim, taking over his mortal body and banishing him (and his eternal screams) to a deep recess within his own mind.

From this point on the Daemon possesses Fulgrim's body and eventually *the Daemon is rewarded with elevation to Daemon Prince and the rule of its own world*.


What your not understanding Warlock, is a very simple argument.

You are saying Fulgrim is awesome, he killed two Primarchs etc etc, but what people are saying is that *he *didn't commit these acts, *the Daemon* that was in possession of his body commited those acts.

His title, name, body, might have been the same, but it wasn't the *true Fulgrim* that was able to commit these acts, *it was the Daemon*.

Therefore, what you should be saying is either: *The Daemon that possessed Fulgrim = Awesome ... or ... The Daemon Fulgrim = Awesome.*

Not 'regular' Fulgrim, but Daemon Fulgrim is the one you admire, and believe was so pivotal in the HH. Fulgrim actually played little part in significant events as the Daemon was either in the process of corrupting him, or was in possession of him, at all major and significant events.

'Fulgrim's' last, and greatest (arguably) triumph, was the destruction of the Laer. But it also led to his downfall.

After Laer all events are tinged with the presence of the Greater Daemon of Slaanesh and so cannot be attributed fully to 'Fulgrim'.Thats what people have been trying to tell you.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Well I just wanna say that I loved the book Fulgrim...

I always felt sorry for him because he himself wasn't evil and really was just a victim of the daemon. The daemon that influenced him was a great villian IMO and his story can make you able to relate to him. IMO he is one of the most human of all the primarchs besides maybe Dorn who in the Lightning Tower actually shows how human a primarch can really be when he finally realizes that he must acknowledge that he does have fears and emotions that could also cloud his mind. The same can be said of Fulgrim, here is a guy so hell bent on being perfect that it ultimately destroyed him and his legion. Fulgrim, though was a victim of the daemon, already had a flaw to him which of was the perfection issue. Vanity is hailed as one the 7 deadly sins which makes sense because we as human beings can be driven towards perfection so much that we begin to lose the focus on what was trully important to us. 

As artists (yes I said it we are all artists) we are always driven to perfect or craft which is why I have always looked up to the char. Fulgrim. He is testament as to that fact the if we pursue perfection so badly that it can ultimately become our undoing simply because there is no such thing as being perfect.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I'd actually rank the Most Human (pre-heresy) as -

1. Vulkan
2. Horus
3. Dorn
4. Fulgrim

I'd maybe throw the angel in there as well but I've only ever seen him converse with Horus so I'll leave him out.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

D-A-C said:


> Holy jeez guys, what an argument to be having.
> 
> Its a very simple concept.
> 
> ...


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Warlock in Training said:


> D-A-C said:
> 
> 
> > Holy jeez guys, what an argument to be having.
> ...


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> D-A-C said:
> 
> 
> > Holy jeez guys, what an argument to be having.
> ...


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Is the EC Primarch still called Fulgrim? Yes. Is he still considered thier Primarch? Nothing has said otherwise so Yes.
> 
> Hes Fulgrim. Hes controlled by a Daemon, blah, blah blah.... doesnt changed the fact hes Fulgrim Name, title, Position, and Bad assness.
> 
> And he may not have Kiiled Manus, but he BEATEN him twice!


Actually, in a way, your still wrong.

The *Daemon, *is only called *Fulgrim*, in the eyes of Mortals, I would imagine that in the Warp, and amongst other Daemonic entities, including its patron Slaanesh, that it is known by a different name.

In reality Fulgrim has ceased to exist except as part of his own former subconscious.

However, for those of you who have read _Blood Reaver_:



The Exalted is a Daemon that possess a Nightlord Captain, and he takes over his body, slowly mutating it bit by bit, but the Captain still retains a part of himself, deep within the recesses of his mind, and bides his time for a moment of weakness in the Daemon, and eventually manages to retake control of his body.

Whilst the Daemon that possessed Fulgrim was most likely a Greater Daemon, making the task more formiddable, Fulgrim is hismelf, alot more formiddable than a Chaos Astartes Captain. 

So maybe, just maybe, he is in there, biding his time, waiting for a single chance to free himself.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

D-A-C said:


> Actually, in a way, your still wrong.
> 
> The *Daemon, *is only called *Fulgrim*, in the eyes of Mortals, I would imagine that in the Warp, and amongst other Daemonic entities, including its patron Slaanesh, that it is known by a different name.
> 
> ...


Exactly I was going to reference that point but I didn't want to bring it up as I was sure whether he'd read the book or not, guess I could of just done what you did though lol.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I read the book and Agree completly.


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