# Need Some Help - New to Fantasy



## Angelus Censura (Oct 11, 2010)

Alright, I've scrapped the idea of trying to find an army that would be fun to convert and stuff, and am going to just start slow with an army that is fun to play, especially for someone new. But before I start buying shit, I have a few questions:

First, how many points does a typical game run? I know with 40k, I enjoy playing around 1500-2000pts, but wasn't sure if fantasy ran on the same point scale. 

How similiar is the game play of Fantasy whe ncompared to 40k? Movement, Shooting, Assault? Or is it completely different.

With WoC, do units have varying stats depending on chaos god affiliation, or do you just have basic Chosen, basic Warriors, etc. I'd like to find an army with more options for personalization, so I was hoping that if I decided to do Khorne dedicated WoC, it would come with some perks and modelling ideas.

And lastly - if you could start fantasy all over again, and choose from these armies with your experience playing, which would you choose? From both a gaming standpoint, and a modelling/painting standpoint

1. Khorne WoC
2. Slaanesh WoC
2. Nurgle WoC
(Ignore the god affiliation if it doesn't play a part in unit composition and special rules)
4. Dwarves
5. Empire

I've pretty much decided to play either Dwarves or WoC as they have minis that appeal to me more, but I am stuck between the two. I hear they both have different play styles, and are both strong in different areas. They would also both be fun to model and paint ,and have pretty sweet looking units. I love Chaos, and I love the Dwarves badass beards. (No, I won't do Chaos Dwarves  can't get over those goofy fuckin hats) 

Anyways, feedback would be greatly appreciated 
Cheers


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

With the new edition bigger is better normal battles are around 2 to 2.5 k although if your starting out then anything around the 1k mark to get you started is fine.

The fantasy rulesset is a bit different to the 40k system mainly because 1 deals with skirmish type troops the other large blocks but if you've learnt how to play 40k then GW layout and teminology is similar enough throughout both systems that the rules are simple enough to pick up and you'll have at least a familiarity with stats and the like.

Warriors of chaos are similar to chaos marines in that they come vanilla and you can pay to upgrade them with chaos marks that give different bonuses depending on the god chosen.

If I was to start again I'd probably pick Dwarves as I've done the rest of the armies and Dwarves are really easy to paint.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Aye, I started with Dwarfs and they have some great models with nice easy blocks of colour. That's not to say that painting them is easy, as if you take you time and put detail in (trying to do dwarf eyes is next to impossible) then they can look amazing.

I would say one thing, think about the tactics you like to employ in 40k, if you like blowing apart your enemies from long range and then having hard as nails troops but with no manoevrability then Dwarfs are for you. If not, then don't. I absolutely love the stunties and their stubborness appeals to me but with a lack of magic phase and few tactical options they can turn people off.


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## Angelus Censura (Oct 11, 2010)

Good points, that may actually turn me off to dwarfs then, as I am more of a close combat person, and like the option of maneuverability. I was checking out the GW site and articles on both Dwarfs (or Dwarves?) and WoC, and although I love a lot of the independent characters for the Dwarves, I found that WoC have a lot more options when it comes to freehand painting and variety of cool schemes. Dwarves may be something I would work into later on, once I've learned how to play a bit more. I also like using psykers and Librarians in 40k, so I would miss being able to use magic in Fantasy. 

When it comes to point size, is 2.5k a ton of minis, or do they tend to run a bit higher in points per model? If Fantasy is more like blocks of guys, then I guess you would have a lot more blocks with standard weaponry rather than, in 40k, having a squad of 5 with carious weapons and upgrades? It may be beneficial to pick up a fantasy rulebook and read through it haha, but I'm broke at the moment, and I'd rather spend the money on cool minis 

I'm thinking Khorne dedicated WoC may be what I go with, just because I have seen a ton of sick paint schemes, and I love this guy:










Is the structure of an army similiar to 40k, such as 2 HQs or in this case Lords and Heroes, 6 troops or core unites, etc? Sorry to be asking so many ridiculous questions, this is all new to me and as I said, I've never even picked up the rulebook and look in it haha.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Not quite, it used to but now it runs on percentage costs of the total army cost. As for how many models 2.5k is, well that depends on what army you're going to use. You will have less models with WOC that most other armies.


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

Fantasy generally uses a lot more infantry models than normal 40k, but it makes sense since there are no vehicles. As far as cost goes they come out to about the same, because although you're buying a lot more infantry, you're not buying them any transports.

Chaos Warriors have fewer models in their armies than most other armies, because they're very powerful and expensive. They're very similar to chaos marines in the way icons work in their units (there are no God specific units in Chaos Warriors, aside from charactes). 

Movement is far more important in fantasy than in 40k, and the direction your units are facing matters a great deal. Shooting is far less important in fantasy, as very few units are meant for both shooting and close combat. They either specialize in one or the other. Shooting 'can' be powerful in fantasy, but there isn't nearly as much of it, and firing with big 'tank' like units is more random, and can often destroy themselves in the process.

Magic is a really big deal though, which is fantasy's version of psychic powers. They have their own phase, and it's fairly complicated/important, but you don't have to focus on it if you don't want to. You generally need at least 1-2 wizards in your army though, to dispel enemy spells if nothing else, to prevent them from being cast.

Games tend to be slightly bigger in fantasy by about 500 points. 1000 is generally seen as the minimum, 1500 is a skirmish, 2000 is standard for tournaments, and 2500-3000 are the BIG games.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Another big difference (especially as you mentioned liking CC) is that you charge at the start of Movement; therefore if you make the charge (charges are quasi-random length, and the enemy could run away or shoot you and make you abort your charge) your unit and theirs are in CC until the end of the combat, e.g. you usually cannot shoot them either with the charging unit or any others.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Empire:
This is a mid-tier army right now. It is competitive enough to win a lot of battles and win more than it loses in an Indy GT tourney but not as likely to win the tourney as dwarves, lizardmen, or skaven right now. 

I like empire as a starter army because it has all of the elements of the game to really expore and learn. It has the second best war machine options (to dwarves) with mortars (larger radius) and great cannons (long range) and engineers for re-rolls.

It has excellent magic defense with the arch lector and warrior priests generating dispel dice and good magic with battle wizards having access to the lore of life and the ability to carry over dice from one magic phase to the next. 

It has interesting and varied troops (although the infantry are not strong and can be inferior on a points relative to killiness-strength, hitting effectiveness and ability to penetrate and resilience-toughness, armour saves, other saves and wounds) in basic infantry (including the detachment system which is too often underutilized in 8th edition), shooting units (crossbowmen and handgunners), cavalry (fast cav with shooting, medium cav with shooting, and heavy cav), and special units (flagellants-which can be core with the arch lector as a lord-and great swords are unbreakable and stubborn, respectively. 

It has an unbreakable and very difficult to kill steam tank and war alter options. 

The other thing is that the empire army can be themed in multiple ways. For example, Aaron Chapman in the US build an entire army based around Monty Python and the Holy Grail that is hilarious. 

Dwarves:
This army type can win a tourney but also can lose as much as it can win in competitive play. 

Great war machines (organ gun, grudge thrower with boosted strength, and cannons) with runes that give re-rolls to avoid misfires and improve hit rates and strength (for grudges) and with engineers. Anvil of Doom is interesting but often not used by top tier armies due to cost, difficulty defending and 

Great magic defense with rune lords and rune smiths. 

Extremely tough and resilient troops (especially with the longbeard and hammer options and great weapons) and characters with the rune system allowing characters to be very difficult to kill. Some very effective shooting troops in handgunners and crossbowmen (but limited by move or shoot rules). But they can be slow and plodding such that we often see one large longbeard ranger unit chosen (allows unit to deploy as scouts to get closer to combat quicker and have more longbeard units than normally allowed) and miners (deployed as reserves/ambushers coming on later from any board edge). The biggest problem is the lack of diversity in optimal play styles and lack of full utilization of all phases of the game (no magic phase, no cavalry, no good skirmishers) 

Warriors of Chaos:
Warriors are very popular right now but win as much as they lose in competitive tourneys. The biggest problem is that WoC armies struggle with the high cost per model for the better models (warriors, chaos chosen, chaos ogres, chaos knights, trolls, dragon ogres, war shrines and hellcannons are all the most optimal model choices right now; war hounds are not very good and marauder infantry is only so-so) limiting the number of ranks and units that can be efficiently employed, especially below 2500 points, and the high cost of characters. WoC armies are more potent when special characters are allowed (Throgg with trolls and Festus with warriors of nurgle unit or chosen unit) and when playing at greater points levels of 2500 to 2750 and especially at 3000+ points. 

Chosen star: A common strategy is to run a block of chaos chosen (chosen warriors with special gift of the gods blessing from the eye of the gods table at the beginning of the game) with two war shrines because that can potentially maximize the effectiveness of that unit. The chosen get a roll on the Eye of the gods table that can bless them with a "gift of the gods" that confers a decent buff (+1Toughness, +1 strength, +1 armour save, +1 attack, +1 LD, 3 magic resistence, and 4+ ward save and stubbornness are all good) and each war shrine can additionally bless a unit with an Eye of the gods "gift of the gods" each shooting phase (once the blessing/gift of the gods is given, it remains in play even if the war shrine dies, until the war shrine rolls for a new blessing for the same or another unit). There are ways to manipulate the eye of the gods table dice rolls with a cheap magic item (favour of the gods allows one to change the roll by +1 or -1) to improve the odds of getting the best blessings and to use the rule that a gift cannot be duplicated to re-roll the dice and increase the odds of getting the best gifts (divine greatness grants stubborn and a 4+ ward save that can become a 3+ ward save for units and characters with the mark of tzeentch). This is a "deathstar" and all or nothing strategy that can be defeated by bad luck (unable to get the ward save gift until too late), strong magic offense, and early shooting (before the ward save is in place) as well as by using sacrificial or tough units or models to distract, delay, and hold up the chosen unit such that it never really gets to kill something sufficiently worthwhile to win the battle. 


While the monstrous infantry options and combat of warriors of chaos armies have been improved in effectiveness by 8th edition, 8th edition also hurt warriors by the new steadfast rules that favour larger units with lots of ranked because most of the better models and characters are expensive per model which limits unit size. Also, choas knights, like all cav, are less effective in 8th edition than in 7th edition. The leadership is moderate, not high, for relative expensive per model, elite units. WoC armies are also hurt by the relative lack of shooting infantry and limited shooting phase (throwing weapons for marauder horsement and hellcannon) and the lack of scouting units. Normal shooting, cannons and stone throwers can take out a lot of points before the units ever get into combat as a result. 

WoC armies have some of the better special hero-level characters-if that is allowed where one plays-in Throgg (great for trolls in that trolls become a core options and ogres and certain other beasts benefit from Throggs leadership and abilities) and Festus (gives 5+ regen to unit he is in) and some very interesting and playable special lord-level choices (Valkia, Archaon). If a character kills a monster or another character in combat then it gets to roll on the eye of the gods table for a gift of the gods but characters must issue and accept challenges. 

WoC have access to interesting/good monstrous infantry in trolls (get gifts with 2+ regen saves and improved with throgg and new 3-wdie rank and supporting attack rules), chaos ogres (chaos armour and chaos marks make them quite effective if used correctly), dragon ogres (expensive but very good). The trolls and throgg can gain gifts of the gods from the eye of the gods table if they succeed in regenerating 2 or more times in a phase. The throgg and troll combo is so good, that a troll horde with chaos shrine blessings is an interesting focus for an army at 2500 to 3000 points. I've also run ranked chaos ogres with great weapons, chaos armour and mark of khorne with some success when paired with chaos knights with a mounted BSB (max armour save) and lord nearby for synergy and better LD. 

Two good cav choices are available in marauder horsemen (decent points cost for flails and fast cav, can use throwing weapons, die easily to shooting) and choas knights (one of best heavy cav in the game with magic weapons and 1+ Armour save but expensive and best used in 8th edition for characters and as supporting unit working with a unit of infantry). A marauder horsemen unit of decent size with max armour, etc and mark of slaanesh is a neat vehicle for carrying a mounted characters (max armour saves on barded chaos steeds or can put mark of tzeentch character on disc for cavalry troop type and then fly out of the unit when appropriate), such as a sorceror and BSB to where they need to be. 

Lords are expensive such that one usually will play either one lvl 4 sorceror or combat lord at under 2500 points. But the sorcerors can be armoured and fight well, unlike in other armies. The magic options available to casters allows for good magic defense and offense if desired. 

One very good war machine that is a monster in the hellcannon (monster and super stone thrower in one) and one good war shrine (monster/chariot) that can bless units with gifts and still be very tough to kill and able to fight effectively for its point cost. 

Marks are excellent unit upgrades for what they do with each having pros and cons and they do a great job of allowing one to theme an army. Magic banner choices are very good. But marks and banners make units very expensive. Most players do not employ a single themed army but mix marks to optimize each unit: Tzeentch to max out magic and ward saves; Khorne to max out attacks and avoid panic; Slaanesh to minimize panics but avoid risking having to charge with Khorne; and Nurgle to reduce shooting effectiveness at unit and reduce rate of being hit modestly. Right now, Tzeentch is favoured for characters with ward saves, war shrines (increases ward save from 4+ to 3+ which is a big difference), chaos chosen with 2 war shrines for blessings (often however with banner of rage for frenzy or terror to max chance of getting the stubborn and ward save gift of chaos, and sometimes knights and sometimes warriors (when handweapon and shield). Khorne is favoured for warriors with halberds, marauder infantry with great weapons, ogres with great weapons, and sometimes chaos knights. Slaanesh is favoured for marauder horsemen used as fast cav and to provide look out sir protection for mounted sorcerors and characters (mounting maxes armour saves). Nurgle is only used right now with the Banner of Rage (frenzy) or a unit with Festus and a special Nurgle banner that potentially wounds all models in base contact.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd reccommend having a look through the fantasy army list section to get a feel of the numbers and general make up of the different fantasy armies you like the look of.
Some of it will probably go over your head without the rules to hand but it might help you decide on an army.


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## Angelus Censura (Oct 11, 2010)

Thanks guys I appreciate the feedback, I'm in the process of trying to acquire a rulebook, so I think that will help out a lot too when it comes to figuring out what the hell to do haha. I have never been one to pick the most competative armies out there, just the ones I think look the coolest and would be fun to play. Olderplayer - you brought up a lot of good points, I just hope that if I do go with Chaos, their shortcommings as an army won't make a game any less fun. I don't think I will ever be playing in tournaments, so really just want an army that would be fun to dick around with at the local GW. Also, even though you have less models with WoC, that means I won't have to spend as much money hopefully, which will help a lot as I don't have much money to spare at the moment haha.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Don't be misled by my discussion, WoC is a fun army to play and has a lot of options such that it is less likely to be boring over time and you'll rarely get trounced quickly playing warriors. It is not a cheap army because the chaos chosen and hellcannons and trolls and ogres are not cheap unless you buy them in a used army on e-bay. The war shrines are not available, so a lot of players just convert chaos chariots into war shrines.


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## Angelus Censura (Oct 11, 2010)

What is a War Shrine supposed to look like? If I did Khorne, it would be sick to convert one using that cauldron of blood that the Dark Elves have - I have a sotre near me that sells all warhammer and 40k stuff at 20% off, all the time, so at least that will makes things somewhat cheaper


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Angelus Censura said:


> What is a War Shrine supposed to look like? If I did Khorne, it would be sick to convert one using that cauldron of blood that the Dark Elves have


The Army Book describes a Warshrine as shrine or altar mounted on a heavy carriage; the picture for the entry shows a cart with two horses and a Warrior escort. Apart from that there is no guidance on what they can or cannot look like, and no conversions in the Army Book.

So adding some wheels/runners/carriage to the Cauldron of Blood should be fine rules-wise, and could look great visually.


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