# VS Blood Angels



## Karnox (Feb 27, 2010)

So whats the deal with the new blood angels?
Looking over the new codex I can see that when playing against Blood Angels your in close combat against these blood frenzied maniacs by turn 2.

So I'm just wondering where that leaves us Eldar, Imperial Guard and Tau players. Should we just pack it in and make ourselves some white flags, or are is there still any hope left for our gunline?


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## Underground Heretic (Aug 9, 2008)

I haven't seen hope for a Tau gunline since 5th edition came out, but then I love a flying circus. I think each army will have their own way of dealing with these blood crazed maniacs, so give me some time to rant.

As only a begining eldar player, just mount up and fly the bird as those blood angels try to keep up with your wave serpents. Try to draw the assault squads away from the slower elements of the army, then turn and crush them, focusing all your firepower on one squad.

Tau, we might actually have an easier time, as shocking as that sounds, if the current trend of min/max razorback spamming continues. Killing ten jump pack marines, especially with FnP, is a lot harder than sending a few railgun and a lot of missile pod shots down range into that AV 11 wall. A missile pod hit has about a 50% chance of stopping a razorback from firing and about a 17% chance of killing a marine with FnP. As much as people disagree, I will continue to oil the Fireknife suits and calibrate my markerlights to bring down the hosts of Sanguinius.

Guard, I think can have some of the easiest times against the new blood angels, if they are willing to bring russes and take a few risks. You can bring enough lascannons to pop those razorbacks and predators as well as bringing a few battle cannons and lots of lasguns for those deep striking squads. If they want to try to out shoot you, I wish them luck; if they want to deep strike and fire a melta or two, you can wheel around and drop an 8/3 pie plate to kill most of the squad, then order a first rank fire, second rank fire, with a decent sized squad or two to force the survivor(s) to take armor saves.

Good luck and good hunting.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Blood angels will try and engage you in CC, but nowhere near as much as a Space wolve player will.

But, back to basics.

Blood Angels come in 3 forms. Deep strike, Assault pack or Rhino.

All 3 of which can be dealt wth via gun line.

My advice would to make sure your units aren't to close together. try and spread out as much as you can. 13" between groups is a good bet. This stops BA moving from one squad to the next per turn.

IF the board disallows this, then split your force into each corner. Picking units to go in each unit is tricky, although I find using a commander as a 'bait' usually fools people nto thinking thats your strong corner, and they go for that first. 

This will either force the BA player to split his force OR go all out on one. If he splits his force, you should be ok in Pouring as much fire as you can into him on approach then taking the assault.

Say 1500 point battles, you will have 750 points of fire power in each corner. He will be coming at you with 750 points worth of CC. This should give you enough guns to kill around about 300 points. His fire support on each corner will maybe kill 100-200 points worth. Leaving you with 500 points up against his 400.

If he doesn't split and goes for one corner. You should (in 5th anyway) have a few transports in your army. Use them to re-deploy away from him. This will make him go forward to attack one corner, then trudge the length of the battle field to get the other half. Fast moving units like Rhinos MUST be stopped in order for this to work. Jump packs do move 12" and ignore terrain, but if you can neutralise Rhino support units, then you will find that Jump pack units (even en mass) will stray to far from the 'core'.

The Golden Guard have 2+ saves, but are still only T4, and Expensive. So mass fire will down them. Just like Termies.

Although it seems cowardly to 'run away' like this, its perfectly fluffy for Eldar and Tau, and good tactics for guard. Make use to 'First rank, fire' to thin him down as he gets toward you.

'Courting' Dire avengers can deal with MEQ if Transports can be dealt with. By Courting, I mean moving forward as far as you cna without being charged, then as the enemy moves toward you, you move back. Avenger catapults are nasty in large numbers, and Bladestorm his face when you won't/can't go back further. Using Howling banshees as a counter assault unit is a good idea against BA, as it allows you to attack his juicy units, and the majority of them don't have inv saves.

Tau are a little different. No marine, no matter how crazy, will run up to rapid firing Pulse rifles. The gamble is too high. So for Tau, I recommend split deployment and and 4 units of Fire warriors. 2 squads in each corner. Stealth suits can put out horrendous amounts of firepower at close range, a unit of 6 can send out 18 shots!
Just make sure Transports are gone, Railheads and even pulse weapons can acheive this.

Another tactic for Tau would be to bait him onto pulse weapon fire, tie him up with a couple of units of kroot for a turn, allowing the Fire warriros to fall back/escape. And Land Crisis suits behind him. Plasma/fusion combos on suits can kill 3 marines a turn. thats a potential 9 per squad. and you can have 4 squads (inc commander+Bodyguard), and its not that bigger amount of points at 2k.

One thing I will say to any army attempting to redeploy/fall back is to watch out for Baal predators. I've grown somewhat in love with these, and they are the bane of none power armoured troops. Fast and 10 shots if given HB sponsers means alot of dead. They will chase you down rather well. So take these out if you can. But Rhinos are the priority as ever.

Difference between Rhino mounted squads and Jump packs is that you cna pin jump pack marines. So make use of this. 

Never focus your fire on seperate units until one breaks/dies. Its much better to kill 6 marines from one squad and leave the other than kill 3 from each. The more you kill from a unit, means the less likely he is to hang around once he gets into combat. 10 Tau can fight off 4 marines.

Units that are fearless like Death company wont suffer from this, but the extra wounds caused and the effects of rage mean you can divert and whittle them down.

Lol, long post, my bad. Hope some of it is useful.


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## Karnox (Feb 27, 2010)

I wouldnt say many people would take the razorback option. If I were to take BA army I would field a whole lot of jump packs, those bronze angel guys and death company. And not forgeting some baal predators, maybe a few land raiders to pop some tanks, or Lascannon Devs, so although I agree it is easier to kill razorbacks, the majority of players probably wont have them and instead will use jump infantry.

I dont see any hope for eldar at the moment anyway, maybe a wraith army but otherwise no, Tau... ive seen them get their ass handed to them every time they face BAs and that was before the new codex, in fact I only ever had a hard time with Tau once and thats cause they were teamed up with marines so I wasnt fully concentrating on them.

As for Imps, I suppose a mechanized army is the only thing for it, 3 LRBT squadrons would fare greatly although quite dear money wise.


Yeah Orochi, I guess that does make sense, its just the whole in combat by turn 2 that scares me, I mean if BA get first turn you only have 1 turn of fire until they bring the pain.
I dont play Tau or eldar, I just put out those options cause I think those are the armies that will suffer most, but as a guard player redeployment does sound good, and I think with two units of 3 combined platoons and a commissar this will hold off the BAs for at least two turns, maybe equipped with missile launchers or HBs for support. And behind this 4 units of veterans with snipers and mortars, this will help pin down those open units, and finally you have to have tanks, so basalisks would be worthless since the BAs will be in 36' range meaning you cant fire, so I say medusas for both anti-vehicle and anti-infantry or vanquishers to take out the armour.

I also have a list for imperial guard which deploys your whole army in reserve. Using captain Al'rahem put 5 platoons in chimeras, and all of these must outflank, then take Creed and Kell, with an astropath of course and put them also in a chimera and make themselves scouts to outflank and finally between 2-4 vendettas with veterans inside for anti-tank and that way the BA player wont be able to do much for the first 2 turns, the downside of course is that your army will come in in waves and so will make it easy for the BA player to kill off each wave if your unlucky.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Frankly if you're playing Eldar as Gunline, then I'd respectfully suggest you're not making the best of them. Their 2 defining characteristics are Speed and Fragility. Gunline doesn't cater to either. Drive around with your Grav Tanks in turns 1-2 taking potshots with Prism Cannons and Bright Lances, unload on turn 3-4 and annihilate what you softened up. If you somehow get a unit caught in combat, shrug and move on. He just managed to kill a 160 point unit (at most) and at this stage he should only have about a third of his army left, if that. Turn 5 you get onto enough objectives to win, or kill maimed-but-not-dead units. Never, ever be afraid to run 24" if you think you might be in assault/melta distance.


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## Karnox (Feb 27, 2010)

Well like I mentioned before I dont collect eldar or Tau, and when I said gunline I meant an Imperial guard gunline and Tau are a given gunline, Ive never really seen them played any other way, Eldar I just always saw as difficult to use because of their fragility and this same fragility would be a downfall when faced against BAs. But yeah, I guess mobility is a sound tactic against BAs, its just that for most armies it will be difficult to achieve seeing as how it has become a very fast army, I'm sure necrons would have a hard time also, although I wouldnt know as Its been a long time since I played necrons, though I lost most of my matches which is why I changed to Tyranids and then also Guard.
Other marines, Nids and Chaos I wouldnt think would be at too much of a disadvantage, I mean I'm sure possessed, 'zerkers and Defilers would put up a fight, as would Hive tyrants, Genestealers and Trygons, and dark eldar I have only really played against them twice, lost once as I underestimated their close combat prowess and speed so I dunno. But being still 15 years or so behind I'm sure there are many things holding them back.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

And remember this. Blood angels are going to be a small army. They have lots of fantastic, expensive toys. They are mobile, check. They have a lot of attacks, check. The trick with Blood Angels will be bogging them down in front of your guns. Throw small, inexpensive units in the way of assaults. They will die, but the angels will be stranded in space for your guns. Kroot are great for this, and might get back some kills with their ork-like attacks. Guardian Storm squads are good for this, as are Summoned Daemon Packs. It's all in the "Trip them up before they get there" theory of things.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Ah, an Imperial player.

Well your best bet is Veterans and Stormtroopers. AP3 weapons and plasma.

Leman russ tanks are scary as for marine players. I reccommend a Punisher and 2 standard. The punisher to keep the heat on Jump packs.

HW teams I'd go for missiles and Autocannons. 

Sentinels make fast, reliable distractions.

And Conscripts to speed bump. MAke use of that character with 'send in the next wave' to be sure that you will have several cahnces to tarpit units.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Ah, an Imperial player.

Well your best bet is Veterans and Stormtroopers. AP3 weapons and plasma.

Leman russ tanks are scary as for marine players. I reccommend a Punisher and 2 standard. The punisher to keep the heat on Jump packs.

HW teams I'd go for missiles and Autocannons. 

Sentinels make fast, reliable distractions.

And Conscripts to speed bump. MAke use of that character with 'send in the next wave' to be sure that you will have several cahnces to tarpit units.


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## beeny13 (Mar 30, 2008)

since i am usually trying so hard to close here are some armies i would fear as ba.
guard with cheaps squads close in cover, vendettas, a couple rear ac hw teams, and a lrmbt at each corner. for extra credit drop down two storm troopers with 3x melta and 3xplasma

the squads in the front are just there to get assaulted then die in one turn, run them so that the ba player can't assault them 2nd turn.
drop the stormtroopers behind him, so that he has to double back to deal with them. 100 something points to delay the ba player a turn is a great trade. especially if you kill 3 assault marines and a vehicle.
twin link your autocannons and you will pop the razorbacks no sweat.

tau-deepstrike a double fusion crisis suit to take out a baal and draw the assault marines away from your lines. keep kroot in front. they are cheap and you don't have to worry about them tying up the marines for a turn. the missile pods can really shred the razorbacks, while a fusion/plasma 4 man team can wipe a squad the turn after the kroot get assaulted. pathfinders are essential, taking out smoke launchers makes even a fast rhino/razorback suck.
also take flechette dischargers everywhere. and use gun drones to prevent assaults against good targets.
eldar-you guys don't have to gunline and distract, you can actually outrun the monkeigh. falcons full of fire dragons can deal with a tank or an unsupported assault squad. walkers with the s6 heavy4 gun can start on the transports and finish up whittling down the assault squads, trying to force saves on the sang priest. and wave serpents with scoring da are hard for any army to ground. then add in wave serpents of banshees and the ba player is taking losses no matter what he does. just make sure that he can't pop a wave serpent/falcon then flamer the passengers.
orks-don't let mephiston charge the warboss
space marines-whine about the new dev squads and fast vehicles. ignore the fact that storm shields and fast rhinos cost more points.


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## screenedwings (Mar 5, 2010)

I would make a nice counter atck with my zerkers and DP:grin:


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## elkhantar (Nov 14, 2008)

And that would be a fairly solid idea, to be honest, since BA's CC specialists are generally worse than zerkers 

Anyway, you think that BA come only in two or three flavours, and all geared for assault?

One of the BA main strengths now is that all their tanks except the land raider are fast. What does this mean? That most of their tanks will be able to move out of cover and shoot all of their weapons in a single turn (that includes lascanon sponsons). Oh, yeah, and they also have outflanking/scouting baal predators too to take autocannon shots at side armour.

Oh, and did I mention flying librarian dreadnoughts with the lance STR8 AP1 power?

I got into BA (two codexes ago) because I didn't want to field a single walking marine (jump-packs for everyone!) but BA transports and tanks are so tempting...


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## warsmith7752 (Sep 12, 2009)

You do realise blood angels do have guns and they can shoot as well as cc they arent all going to field all jump pack armies. Of course most people will just because they can but once the exitment of that has died down youre going to have to deal with cheap devastators fast tanks and troops that are good at cc. Many ba players will focus on one thing but when ba do something they do it well.


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## Karnox (Feb 27, 2010)

yes, but so far I have not met an army I have not yet outgunned. In many games players are shocked when they realise I have only fired with half my army. So taking out pesky devs and armour is no problem for me. But even a small mob of orks can take out most of my squads. So fast moving close combat units are scary for me.
Death company not so much, as I can just park a tank in front of them and carry on as normal.


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## warsmith7752 (Sep 12, 2009)

Well what my eirlier post was supposed to mean that blood angels can now offer firepower and close combat specialists.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Bloodangels have two main bonuses:

1. Fast vehicles which equates to better firepower on the move. Autocannon/las preds are cheap as chips at 135pts.
2. FNP and FC throughout. Expect to see hammernators with FNP. They now have very few effective counters. Nasty.



screenedwings said:


> I would make a nice counter atck with my zerkers and DP:grin:


Just as long as you realise that your regular zerkers are going to be half as effective as they are against other marines. FNP ftw.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Hmmm. Hammernators. That's an idea. But a better one may be simple Clawernators. With FC and FNP, they'll slice through most things, and go first with +1 attack. Hammernators are darn hard, but Clawernators going first is a good combination. And avoids the Hammernators cost bump.


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## elkhantar (Nov 14, 2008)

And a healthy mix of both to soak up hits and deal with high T things, yet have some striking at I is even better


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I'm a "do it all one way or the other" sort of Terminator player. It's my way. But a mix is good, STR:5 reroll wounds isn't bad against almost everything. I don't see the Hammers being needed except vs vehicles.


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## elkhantar (Nov 14, 2008)

Well, that's until some wraithlord/walker charges your terminators and you wish you had brought some hammers. 

You don't need many hammers, so I only take a couple of them in the squad (less than a dozen points investment) and they can save the expensive unit from many nasty surprises at the cost of being only slightly less effective in CC.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

If you're letting Wraithlords charge your Termies, well, then of course! I don't fight Eldar much, so I don't tech out for them. What I have for the Wraithlords is heavy firepower. But a few Hamma's can't be bad.


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## elkhantar (Nov 14, 2008)

Good point, in fact it's usually me who's doing the charging and was using the wraithlord as an example. :biggrin:

My main army is nids, and in the previous iteration of the codex I charged a trygon (with the FW rules) onto an assault terminator squad that didn't have any hammer. With no remaining weapons with STR>=7 in the squad, not even Belial (or Sammael or whatever is his name) managed to remove the mass point from my Gargantuan creature.

(it could still be shot at, but he only had a few plasmas that were busy elsewhere so the squad was doomed).

To the point, now you have fleeting Dreadnoughts, fleeting defilers, flying dreadnoughts and sometimes you simply can't avoid combat with that wraithlord (e.g. you want to dislodge it from an objective or something) or need to deal with a tank which is critical to your plans, so having a hammer or two in the squad is always welcome.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

You are both missing the point of the hammernators- it's not damage output but defensive ability thats important.

With a 2+/3++ most armies are forced to whittle with small arms fire/cc attacks to significantly damage the squad. With FNP this is usually no longer a viable tactic. My tyranids in particular are mullered- poisoned/FC gants deal with regular hammernators easily. With FNP on the squad I don't have many answers.

That said- Clawnaters kill most stuff. Hammernators kill everything. Bit of a no brainer in a take all comers environment.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

My terminators are 4 claws, 1 thunder hammer, a chaplain when possible and and a sanguinary priest in a crusader. yes that is a lot of points but you have a unit that can fire 4 rerollable str6 shots, 12 str 4 rerollable shots and a multimelta, then assaulting, into coever too if they like, with 16 ws4 str5 int5 reroll to hit and reroll to wound, 4 str 5 int 6 ws5 power weapon hits that reroll to hit, then 3 str 9 hits at int1 that reroll to hit. And that's not including the priests attacks. Plus a 2+ armour save, 3+,4+ and 5+ inv. saves nothing survives them. 

best way to counter BA, whether it's an all jump pack army, all mech army, elitist army or a mix of them is heavy firepower and a lot of blast templates. one game I've played since new codex I lost a rhino and 2 marines they lost everything. they tried to out CC me but had a few missile launchers. You'd have to really pay for assault units if you want to out CC them. terminators would be good.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

I'm thinking of Genestealers to counter the Termy nasty - Rending negates FNP as well as the 2+, although not the 3++. In a way this was inspired by Space Hulk...


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

FnP termies still aren't that bad, because anything that ignores the 2+ also ignores the FnP. Yes the 3+ Inv is annoying, but if you just hit them with enough Plasma/Melta/Ordnance then they still go down just as quickly as vanilla TH/SS termies.

Yes, Horde armies run into problems here, especially Nids (Orks still have the 30 ablative wounds for their Klaw) but there are still answers (primary among them: just avoid the bastards).


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## Drizzt_13 (May 22, 2009)

I think the main issue they present is those darn sanguinary priests if we could only remove those then well things would be much easier. Now one could include a bunch of things that specifically target IC's in their list to shoot them down but that would be a little to tailoring oriented. Instead if you have soem small sacrificial squads with a power weapon hit the sanguinary priest with it early so they loose all those nice bonuses. now they are just assault marines or terminators from the old codex and we all know how to deal with those.

Deffkoptas, vindicares scouts in a LSS, anything fast and sacrificial with a powerfist should do it.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

I think you forget that those priests are IC's, and can be interated into the squads that they are giving the bonuses to. Therefore they are are naturally going to die... well... last...


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Anti-BA for IG, virtually the same as any anti-MEQ..

Melta, Plasma, AC's to take out transports, Vendettas for high AV, high strength pie-plates. Use meatshields in your DZ to protect your assets against DS/DP'ers, or Inq/2 Mystics. You could also castle up and not spread out so you always have some units that can continue to shoot at them.

Taking out their transports as far away from your gunline as possible is going to be key, because as a c/c oriented Chapter the Squad inside those vehicles is going to hurt big time if they make it, so Hydras and such with long range weaponry will be even more important.

I'm glad I play Mech rather than gunline:grin:

p.s. The few BA lists I've seen are small model count-wise so every kill is going to hurt.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

The Real Sanguinius said:


> I think you forget that those priests are IC's, and can be interated into the squads that they are giving the bonuses to. Therefore they are are naturally going to die... well... last...


His point was that in melee combat, independent characters are treated as seperate units for all purposes, so he can charge with 5 scouts and allocate all of his attacks against the Priest, rather than the TH/SS termies (provided that at least one model makes it into base-to-base with the priest and the rest get within 2"). A Powerfist in said scout squad is the easiest way to get rid of said priest. 

I'd rather just hit them with enough AP2 firepower that he has to assign at least 1 wound to the priest, who then dies messily.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Honestly, it's going to be up to the BA player to arrange it properly, so the Priest ends up against things that he can handle. It's tactical thinking which will win the game. Yes, BAs are tricky, with a lot of things they can do. I'm considering leaving the Priest in the Land Raider when everyone else leaves. According to the rules, you measure from the LR hull for his 6" "aura". Bigger area of affect, less worry about being assaulted. 1 I leave with the "Objective Holders" and the Dev Squad. giving them some solace against the big patterns rolling down on them. I find BAs fun to play so far, not devestating, but tougher than your standard marine army RIGHT NOW, since effective tactics are only now being developed to stop them.


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## 40rending (Jan 3, 2008)

Creon said:


> . I'm considering leaving the Priest in the Land Raider when everyone else leaves. According to the rules, you measure from the LR hull for his 6" "aura". .


cant be done, when the squad the independant charater is joined with disembarks from the vehicle the independant goes with them, sorry. would give you a page number but i am at work


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## Wax (Jan 6, 2010)

40rending said:


> cant be done, when the squad the independant charater is joined with disembarks from the vehicle the independant goes with them, sorry. would give you a page number but i am at work


Nope, wrong. P.67 of the BRB says that ICs can stay in a transport when the unit disembarks.


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## Belthazor Aurellius (Jan 16, 2009)

From what I've seen of Eldar, they are not helpless in close combat. Between banshees, warlocks, farseers and Kaela Mensha Kaine's Avatar of Woe (or is it Doom?), you have the potential to put out some serious hurt on anyone trying to slice-n-dice.

To add to this, Space Marines are susceptible to high-volume firefights. Dancing circles around them each turn to unload shuriken death in repeatingly frustrating high quantities is going to take a lot of the fight out of the Blood Angels. So what if they can cross the board in 2 turns? Be on the other side when they do. Or, bait them in, then slam them with power weapons that outnumber them, strike on higher initiative, or both.

I used to play Dark Eldar. They relied on mobility, hostility and agility. Between their witches, warp beasts, haemonculi and various HQ/elite options which I found most enjoyable, they weren't unequipped to hold off an enemy close combat specialist.

They also had the advantage of transports that came for a decent points cost, with an anti-tank weapon, the ability to deep strike (could land on difficult terrain no problem... it's a skimmer) and open topped. While it's a disadvantage to get shot at on a slow moving open-topped vehicle, it's still advantageous to be able to unload 24-30 splinter shots while moving at about 12" per turn. A 12 DE squad, iirc (been about 5 years), could ride a skimmer, with up to two splinter cannons. When I played them against space marines, my friends had to focus all their attention on immobilizing my army before they could even think about assaulting them to silence their guns.

So, for Eldar, though I think your grav tanks are not open topped, I still advise mobility. Being able to shoot every other turn, while staying well enough out of reach should be enough to press for victory.

Imperial Guard? I don't know what the current codex says. One of my brothers plays, but I haven't heard from him in a while. Best guess I can give, use the Chimeras to shoot at BA in drive-by fashion, while using ordnance to pin/annihilate them.

Tau. My other brother plays. He plays them well. Best tactic I've seen him use? Tag-team at the OK Corral... More or less, he sets two squads to pursue the destruction of a single objective. One will shoot, the other will mobilise to a better shooting position. Next turn, one will shoot, the other will mobilize etc. I think the US Navy Seals use a similar tactic to make their forces seem more sufficient than they are. A ten man team might set up a diagonal line where, the point man fires his gun a few times, gets up and moves to the back of the line, as he passes the next man, he pats the guy on the shoulder. Next guy in line opens fire a few shots, then does the same as man one.

In that way, they constantly move away from the enemy, yet constantly yeild hot death to those who pursue them. So too, I suggest you provide to whoever seeks to engage your army in CC.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Sethis said:


> Yes the 3+ Inv is annoying, but if you just hit them with enough Plasma/Melta/Ordnance then they still go down just as quickly as vanilla TH/SS termies.


"Enough" is the term you flippantly use. Simple fact is armies don't come with enough ap1/2 firepower, except perhaps certain builds of IG. Even then it's a very large amount of very expensive firepower to be rid of the termies. 

Ap1/2 guns generally get a poor rate of return from shooting hammernators. Now muchos dakka gets a poor rate of return too. CC where you have a plan to snipe the SHP at high initiative appears to be the only option (but he can effectively hide in the middle of a unit).


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## elkhantar (Nov 14, 2008)

Yep, FNP on those basically doubles the number of required wounds... very very tough, in fact. You have to focus a lot of fire to get a SHP in a unit of hammernators: e.g. The predators blow open the land raider and then the vindicators close in to drop demolisher shells into the hammernators and hope the SHP dies. The rest of the army advances unhindered while you had to focus most of your heavy fire in one (somewhat expensive) unit.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

I don't really feel that it's just ap1-2 weapons that's needed though. they'er expensive and pointless seeing as they have that 3+ inv. save anyway.... in a guard list instead of using the big gus on a unit that can easily take that punishment use them on something that they'll smash to bits and use things like all heavy bolter heavy weapon squads or a punisher or two. torrent of fire will drop them eventually. 6 bodies taking that much fire have to go down eventually.... even with a 2+ save and fnp...


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## elkhantar (Nov 14, 2008)

Oh no, you didn't get me exactly. My point was the pieplate catching the whole unit, including the priest. Since he can't FNP or save it (double strength or AP<2), the moment your opponent has to assign a wound to the priest the whole squad looses FNP. Then you use torrent of fire to drop the remaining terminators with half the shots they would require to drop otherwise.

I used BA in the example because they are the army I use. Guard has usually an easier time with battlecannons, earthshakers, plasma cannons and whathot...


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