# From Iron cometh strength: an analysis of the Iron Warriors and Perturabo



## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

I found this summary of Perturabo and the Iron Warriors on Facebook and I think it's great. The only thing I don't understand about Perturabo's story is why he thought he would be in trouble about what happened on Olympia. Other legions had done things far worse and the Emperor hadn't ordered their deaths so why did Perturabo think the Emperor would in his case?

"I pose this question to the audience, when is the moment you realize that you’ve reached your limit? We all have that breaking point, something that shifts our perspective and inner self to finally act. So imagine this kind of reaction in a post human warrior let alone a Primarch. We have often been given glimpses of understanding of why the traitors chose their paths and truthfully a majority of the forces that sided with Horus were either insane, bitter, or had their own agenda. Perturabo is none of those things and this is where we will discover the reasons behind his fall.
The Iron Warriors were and are a unique experiment amongst the Legion Astartes, they were warriors and craftsman. These were individuals who knew the science of carefully constructing a fortress and understood the required force to reduce it to dust. Yet there is always a price for such devotion to ones craft. Instead of being lauded and praised they were reduced to breach fodder, warriors that you would expect to take down the most heavily defended strongholds in the galaxy. Imagine that kind of existence, constantly digging trenches and being thrown into wars that the other Primarchs and legions had no time for. The logic is sound; these post human genetic weapons were created for the purpose of breaching defenses why should they complain? Process that for a moment, they complain because at their core Astartes are still built from a human template, you can expect them to do what they were built for but eventually they will grow to understand that it is a thankless task.
There is a particular moment in Angel Exterminatus where we see how the Imperium viewed the sons of Olympia. An artist once depicted an apothecary of the Iron Warriors removing the gene-seed of a fallen brother. A somber image, which is desecrated by the Imperial Fists flag waving in the background. Perturabo bought the painting only to put it to the torch, an action that makes absolute sense even if you ignore the rivalry between the lord of Iron and Rogal Dorn. The honor of the war was soiled by an image of triumph of another legion instead of focusing on the bitter and painful loss of a brave warrior who gave his life to bring the word of the Emperor to another blighted world.
Unfortunately bitterness does not explain the genocide of Olympia, the world Perturabo and his legion called home. The actions of a small percentage of the population sealed the worlds fate, the Primarch, his sons, and some loyal regiments reduced the population to nothing but smoldering carcasses. The question is why did they take such horrific actions? The answer is simple, post traumatic stress, you’ve surely heard of this in soldiers who come back from war and have lost the ability to function in society, who are psychologically broken. Now imagine that happening in a genetically modified weapon, the Iron Warriors didn’t see the population as civilians they saw them as targets. Combined with the fact that the Primarch himself started the slaughter and you have them justifying or ignoring the actions as if they never happened.
With the last statement we move onto Perturabo, the lord of Iron, the bastard of Olympia. The depictions of him being a petulant child, obsessed with humiliating Rogal are at best idiotic. This was an individual who above all else strived for the perfect world, he longed to be a statesman, a leader beloved by his people. Instead he was saddled with the responsibility of destroying what it sometimes took hundreds of years to build. A person whose life’s purpose is usurped and thrown into the trenches as Perturabos was would eventually snap. After Olympia he didn’t crave adulation or respect, he craved one thing above all others, forgiveness and a way for the guilt to finally die. Horus offered him these things, yet at his core the honor of Perturabo remained unchanged, he refused to butcher the iron Hands who stood against him during a boarding action, allowing them to live, and humiliated Fulgrim in front of his warriors because of the insanity his brother now represented.
Does this mean Perturabos actions can be forgiven or overlooked? no. The Primarch said it best “no one lives in the past everyone is dead there”. Perturabo understood there was no forgiveness no matter how much he craved it. He knew the Emperor would have sanctioned his death after Olympia’s fall, he knew at his core that there was no way out. His eventual choice to ascend to Daemonhood is not a matter of a power or immortality, he already had those. He needed to obtain what so many of his fallen brothers had, a guilt free existence, one to remove the memory of the crimes he had committed. That makes all this more tragic, Perturabo is now trapped forever in a form that thrives on pain, misery, and resentment, he is his emotions given form, absolution was never a possibility, far from it he is now his own self loathing.
In the end everything the lord of Iron and his sons wished to accomplish was reduced to dust and rubble. You can only build so much from the bones of your enemies and in the end a legion that stood for honour , strength and faith was reduced to a broken clock winding down to its eventual and absolute corruption. It is true that from Iron cometh strength, yet strength without control is useless and that was the true lesson of Perturabo’s existence.
Let it forever be so."


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

I very much like it... (But I would)

Though I think there is a bit more than just tradtional PTSD going on, I think there is a huge amount of pure Hate occurring in the ranks (kind of like Milton from Office Space.. )


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Uveron said:


> I very much like it... (But I would)
> 
> Though I think there is a bit more than just tradtional PTSD going on, I think there is a huge amount of pure Hate occurring in the ranks (kind of like Milton from Office Space.. )


Glad you like it  I don't know Office Space so unfortunately I can't comment. Angel Exterminatus had the best character portrayal of any Primarch so far IMO. Someone used the words "demented DaVinci" which I thought was bang on. I think Perturabo and the Iron Warriors were amongst the greatest tragedy of the HH. 

I think he didn't have to fear retribution for Olympia as the Night Lords and World Eaters had done far worse when putting down rebellions and the Iron Hands were equally cold and heartless about humanity in general (or at least they've been portrayed that way to me). 

I also think that in a "What If" scenario, the Iron Warriors had the potential to partially prevent the destruction of the Raven Guard and Salamanders Legions at Istvaan III. (The Iron Hands and Ferrus Manus were doomed due to their refusing to retreat). If the RG and Sallies had been able to retreat within the fortifications and sheer armoured firepower of the Iron Warriors I think they might have stood a fighting chance and Perturabo and his Legions would have been the heroes they always wanted to be portrayed as. Even Corax, who as we know REALLY didn't like Perturabo due the incident at Gate 42, would have had to hail his brother as a hero for saving his Legion.


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

zerachiel76 said:


> I also think that in a "What If" scenario, the Iron Warriors had the potential to partially prevent the destruction of the Raven Guard and Salamanders Legions at Istvaan III. (The Iron Hands and Ferrus Manus were doomed due to their refusing to retreat). If the RG and Sallies had been able to retreat within the fortifications and sheer armoured firepower of the Iron Warriors I think they might have stood a fighting chance and Perturabo and his Legions would have been the heroes they always wanted to be portrayed as. Even Corax, who as we know REALLY didn't like Perturabo due the incident at Gate 42, would have had to hail his brother as a hero for saving his Legion.


Absolutely, If the even one of the loyal Primarcs had been able to befriend Perturabo (Vulkan? is a candidate I find most likely) then there own 'self-respect' would have been given enough of a lift to keep them loyal.. 

But I would say that the IVth legion was on the dark path even before they met up with Perturabo. They had been 'reduced' to the workhorse of the crusade, and they felt no 'Love' from the Emperor and got no thanks for the tasks they did. It wasn't heroic, but it let the others get on with the Heroic actions. 

When they met with Perturabo, he wasn't able to change that path. He was 'type cast' and wasn't able to share in the glory.. and becuse of this he/they never compared themselves to the other leagions, sure the Iron hands, Night Lords and World Eaters may get overlooked as far as retribution was concerned IE: "but they are 'loved' by the emperor so sure they get it easy.. they always get it easy." 

Long story short.. The Emperor is a terrible Dad.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I've really been fascinated with the Iron Warrior depiction. However, I believe that there are too many mixed depictions. The Iron Warriors are supposed to be calculative and cold, but then again depicted as incompetent with their lives as much as World Eaters. They are also craftsmen, perhaps even artists and perfectionists in their craft, yet, their tactics seem to reflect the opposite in the way they simply throw bodies and use brute strength. 

Your post has a good depiction for what we have, but the Iron Warriors along with a few other legions have been used as fodder for the main actors in the series.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I also have been curious as to why the actions in Olympia really meant anything anyhow. I always thought of it in the sense that Perturabo was pretty much willing to give everything to show loyalty, but didn't calculate things that were beyond his control. 

Maybe so or maybe not, I always thought the rebellion in Olympia was orchestrated against Perturabo and destroy his legacy of the most stern and reliant garrisons.


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> Iron Warriors along with a few other legions have been used as fodder for the main actors in the series.


I do have to agree, I have joked a bit that the Iron Warriors theme song is "Bad Guys" from Bugsy Malone.. 

But that is a problem with all the Traitor Legions, they were built to be the antagonists and details have slowly been added to them over time that has slowly humanized them. 

But anyway: 



> The Iron Warriors are supposed to be calculative and cold, but then again depicted as incompetent with their lives as much as World Eaters.


I have always seen this as more being incompetent with 'Other Peoples' lives, But this is much more so with the Iron warriors in M41 than M31.. 



> They are also craftsmen, perhaps even artists and perfectionists in their craft, yet, their tactics seem to reflect the opposite in the way they simply throw bodies and use brute strength.


I also don't see them as Perfectionists, I see that they are more pragmatical with a 'lets get it done attitude'. They may be Craftsmen but they will build things on an industrial scale, where small imperfections can be ignored, and this carries over to how they engage in warfare..


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Uveron said:


> Absolutely, If the even one of the loyal Primarcs had been able to befriend Perturabo (Vulkan? is a candidate I find most likely) then there own 'self-respect' would have been given enough of a lift to keep them loyal..
> 
> But I would say that the IVth legion was on the dark path even before they met up with Perturabo. They had been 'reduced' to the workhorse of the crusade, and they felt no 'Love' from the Emperor and got no thanks for the tasks they did. It wasn't heroic, but it let the others get on with the Heroic actions.
> 
> ...


Definitely. I thought Perturabo made things worse with his decimation of the Legion. That bit of fluff makes no sense to me? It's a pity Vulkan didn't manage to befriend him as they had quite a bit in common in terms of making things. The antipathy between Perturabo and Ferrus Manus makes no sense to me. They had even more in common as they both loved machines and technology. Ferrus' attitude towards Perturabo makes him come across as a right ****head. In fact Ferrus comes across as a ****head in all the books to my knowledge.



ckcrawford said:


> I've really been fascinated with the Iron Warrior depiction. However, I believe that there are too many mixed depictions. The Iron Warriors are supposed to be calculative and cold, but then again depicted as incompetent with their lives as much as World Eaters. They are also craftsmen, perhaps even artists and perfectionists in their craft, yet, their tactics seem to reflect the opposite in the way they simply throw bodies and use brute strength.
> 
> Your post has a good depiction for what we have, but the Iron Warriors along with a few other legions have been used as fodder for the main actors in the series.


Yeah we've not really seen enough of the technology aspect of the Iron Warriors yet. They're just portrayed as cold merciless killers and not particularly competent.


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

> Definitely. I thought Perturabo made things worse with his decimation of the Legion. That bit of fluff makes no sense to me? It's a pity Vulkan didn't manage to befriend him as they had quite a bit in common in terms of making things. The antipathy between Perturabo and Ferrus Manus makes no sense to me. They had even more in common as they both loved machines and technology. Ferrus' attitude towards Perturabo makes him come across as a right ****head. In fact Ferrus comes across as a ****head in all the books to my knowledge.


With Ferrus being one of the "The Dauntless Few", I can see that Perturabo sees him as everything wrong with the universe. Despite being the same Perturabo was an outsider.. now I think that was Perturabo's fault, and it was the leverlage that Horus and Fulgrim used to make him side with them. 

The decimation makes sense, if you understand that Perturabo has no real leadership skills, and it was presumed that he would have them naturally. The fact that was his first act should have been an indicator to the rest of the crusade that someone needed to guide him.. 

So, yep... The The Emperor is a terrible Dad. But Perturabo was also a bit of a nutter.. 



> Yeah we've not really seen enough of the technology aspect of the Iron Warriors yet. They're just portrayed as cold merciless killers and not particularly competent.


I thought the stuff in the Iron Warriors Omnibus did this quite well, they put alot a trust in how technology and science will help them. But they do not worship it and will discard it when they need to.. but anyway..


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Uveron said:


> So, yep... The The Emperor is a terrible Dad. But Perturabo was also a bit of a nutter..


I have actually entertained this view. However, I feel that this view is simply something that many fans basically assert because there just isn't that much information. We virtually have no view of the Olympians. Remember, he overthrew this father and the old tyrannic identity of Old Olympia. In fact, I believe it was Perturabo's stepfather who led the rebellion if memory serves me correct. To me this seems similar to the Lion in which there was things beyond his control in terms of difference in culture and the influence of chaos.

Perturabo's role in the Great Crusade was more important than many due his legion being used to garrison worlds throughout the imperium as well as destroying the strongest strongholds. When The Battle for Terra was over, they retreated more coherently than most of the legions, due to the support of the many worlds under Perturabo's rule.


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> there was things beyond his control in terms of difference in culture and the influence of chaos.


That's a good way to look at it... Thanks! 




> Perturabo's role in the Great Crusade was more important than many due his legion being used to garrison worlds throughout the imperium as well as destroying the strongest strongholds. When The Battle for Terra was over, they retreated more coherently than most of the legions, due to the support of the many worlds under Perturabo's rule.


Absolutely. Though a I have often thought of is a question: 'how much did any primarch actually influence the activity's of a Legion', because to be honest there is not a huge amount of change in operations from before Perturabo was 'found'.. or at least in my reading of the fluff.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I have actually entertained this view. However, I feel that this view is simply something that many fans basically assert because there just isn't that much information. We virtually have no view of the Olympians. Remember, he overthrew this father and the old tyrannic identity of Old Olympia. In fact, I believe it was Perturabo's stepfather who led the rebellion if memory serves me correct. To me this seems similar to the Lion in which there was things beyond his control in terms of difference in culture and the influence of chaos.
> 
> Perturabo's role in the Great Crusade was more important than many due his legion being used to garrison worlds throughout the imperium as well as destroying the strongest strongholds. When The Battle for Terra was over, they retreated more coherently than most of the legions, due to the support of the many worlds under Perturabo's rule.


Good points  I also wondered if the reason that the scouring only lasted 7 years was that some of the Iron Warrior garrisons remained loyal allowing the Loyalist legions to leapfrog them. My reasoning for this is that Dantioch appears to have been trusted by Guilliman and he may have been able to contact his brother Legionaires and determine if they're loyal


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

zerachiel76 said:


> Good points  I also wondered if the reason that the scouring only lasted 7 years was that some of the Iron Warrior garrisons remained loyal allowing the Loyalist legions to leapfrog them. My reasoning for this is that Dantioch appears to have been trusted by Guilliman and he may have been able to contact his brother Legionaires and determine if they're loyal


I always thought the Iron Warriors was corrupted entirely, but then again that can explain the behind the scenes-stuff.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> I always thought the Iron Warriors was corrupted entirely, but then again that can explain the behind the scenes-stuff.


Yeah but since we now know some of the White Scars were traitors and some of the Iron Hands were probably as well after Ferrus died (Massacre says they went mental), I reckon some of the Iron Warriors were loyal like the 77th Grand Battalion who fought the Alpha Legion.

Just my opinion at this stage, no hard facts to back it up.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

zerachiel76 said:


> Yeah but since we now know some of the White Scars were traitors and some of the Iron Hands were probably as well after Ferrus died (Massacre says they went mental), I reckon some of the Iron Warriors were loyal like the 77th Grand Battalion who fought the Alpha Legion.
> 
> Just my opinion at this stage, no hard facts to back it up.


Your opinion is quite valid for me, and I was always under the impression that 20-30% of the traitor legions stayed loyal with the exception of the Word Bearers.


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

zerachiel76 said:


> Good points  I also wondered if the reason that the scouring only lasted 7 years was that some of the Iron Warrior garrisons remained loyal


So the question becomes... which 2nd founding chapter did they join! My bet... Marines Malevolent


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Your opinion is quite valid for me, and I was always under the impression that 20-30% of the traitor legions stayed loyal with the exception of the Word Bearers.


Thanks and I have to say I agree 



Uveron said:


> So the question becomes... which 2nd founding chapter did they join! My bet... Marines Malevolent


Ooh nice thinking although is there any fluff on the MM being particularly technology proficient? If the MMs aren't Iron Warriors I'd have to put my money on Night Lords or another Raven Guard off shoot in the same way as Carcharodon Astra ie those who were "expelled" from the Raven Guard by Corax when he took over.

Are there any more 2nd or 3rd founding Chapters which could be loyalists from the traitor Legions? I've done a quick search on Chapters which were in existence in M32 like the MMs but don't appear on the 2nd founding successor Chapters list. The only ones I can find for certain are:

Halo Brethren
Sable Swords


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

zerachiel76 said:


> Ooh nice thinking although is there any fluff on the MM being particularly technology proficient?


The Lexicanum Entry can be condensed to: 

- They like using Whirlwind artillery support
- They do not mind collatoal damage with said artillery 
- They use Black and Yellow Hazard stripes to denote veterans. 

Sounds like the IV Legion to me...


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Uveron said:


> The Lexicanum Entry can be condensed to:
> 
> - They like using Whirlwind artillery support
> - They do not mind collatoal damage with said artillery
> ...


From that info (which I overlooked so thanks :grin: ) I would agree


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I always regarded the MM as the negative spillout of either the Imperial Fists (they use their tactics) or the Ultramarines (they have their arrogance). But that's me. Any theories are valid, as long as they are committed in a sensible way.


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

Beaviz81 said:


> I always regarded the MM as the negative spillout of either the Imperial Fists (they use their tactics) or the Ultramarines (they have their arrogance). But that's me. Any theories are valid, as long as they are committed in a sensible way.


The Imperial Firsts and the Iron Warriors are the Different side of the same Coin... (I mean You can take IF Geenseed and make an Iron Warrior with no real issue.. as they do quite often). It is the like looking at the difference between the UK and the USA. There are lots of differences, but for the most part they are quite superficial. (Speaking as a Brit whom now lives in the wild west)


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Uveron said:


> The Imperial Firsts and the Iron Warriors are the Different side of the same Coin... (I mean You can take IF Geenseed and make an Iron Warrior with no real issue.. as they do quite often). It is the like looking at the difference between the UK and the USA. There are lots of differences, but for the most part they are quite superficial. (Speaking as a Brit whom now lives in the wild west)


Indeed, very few maybe none other Space Marine former legion has an evil counterpart as much as the IF with their level of similarity. Actually the worse IF are a lot like the IW. And I believe Honsou was a former IF just to get an example (if memory serves). And I know a few Americans as I have them as drinking-mates. Fine people with damn flat dialects when it comes to English.


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

Beaviz81 said:


> And I believe Honsou was a former IF just to get an example (if memory serves).


He was created with hybrid Geanseed by Fabius Bile... But it was IF stock.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Uveron said:


> He was created with hybrid Geanseed by Fabius Bile... But it was IF stock.


Ah, yeah I thought I read that they preferred their geneseed, but also that they hated the IF above all else for their rivalry.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Your opinion is quite valid for me, and I was always under the impression that 20-30% of the traitor legions stayed loyal with the exception of the Word Bearers.


Finally found some fluff which supports this idea:

The Death Eagles chapter which we know was in existence in M32 is almost certainly a loyalist element of the Emperors Children although to hide this they've been made into a successor Chapter of the Raven Guard.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

zerachiel76 said:


> Finally found some fluff which supports this idea:
> 
> The Death Eagles chapter which we know was in existence in M32 is almost certainly a loyalist element of the Emperors Children although to hide this they've been made into a successor Chapter of the Raven Guard.


Where did you find this? Can you link the whole thingy to me in private?


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Where did you find this? Can you link the whole thingy to me in private?


I found it here on Facebook and I guess that someone has Conquest book and book a photo of this page Unfortunately I don't have the book so I only have this page.

https://www.facebook.com/TheLegioCu...5284221656705/319685181549941/?type=1&theater

Some of the 40k and Horus Heresy groups on Facebook are amazing 

The other page I've found in the same group is

https://www.facebook.com/TheLegioCu...5284221656705/319682764883516/?type=1&theater


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## jareddm (Jan 6, 2014)

zerachiel76 said:


> Finally found some fluff which supports this idea:
> 
> The Death Eagles chapter which we know was in existence in M32 is almost certainly a loyalist element of the Emperors Children although to hide this they've been made into a successor Chapter of the Raven Guard.


I'd like to use this as an example showing that trying to use things like heraldry, tactics, or temperment in order to guess at a chapter's lineage is rather meaningless. New homeworlds, new command staff, new alliances, and 10,000 years of battles will change enough about a chapter that to use such superficial evidence is just as good as blind guessing.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

jareddm said:


> I'd like to use this as an example showing that trying to use things like heraldry, tactics, or temperment in order to guess at a chapter's lineage is rather meaningless. New homeworlds, new command staff, new alliances, and 10,000 years of battles will change enough about a chapter that to use such superficial evidence is just as good as blind guessing.


I agree but in this circumstance when the Chapter Name is specifically stated as being a loyalist section of the Emperors Children it makes it clear to me that they probably are in this circumstance.

After all look at their original colour scheme and heraldry and tell me that they don't look similar to pre heresy Emperor's Children?

I suspect that the Forge World books may drip feeding us juicy fluff tidbits like this deliberately.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Unfortunately 12.000 years mires the Space Marine-chapter in its tactics and vulnerabilities. Thats what the current fluff is all about for the Space Marines. They all have differentiating strength and weaknesses, and many of them even my beloved Imperial Fists has became far too arrogant for their own good.


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## jareddm (Jan 6, 2014)

zerachiel76 said:


> I agree but in this circumstance when the Chapter Name is specifically stated as being a loyalist section of the Emperors Children it makes it clear to me that they probably are in this circumstance.
> 
> After all look at their original colour scheme and heraldry and tell me that they don't look similar to pre heresy Emperor's Children?
> 
> I suspect that the Forge World books may drip feeding us juicy fluff tidbits like this deliberately.


That's my point. There's nothing about the Death Eagles that superficially points to them being of traitor geneseed. Hence using superficial lore, such as what people try to do with the Red Scorpions, Marines Malevolent, Minotaurs, and Sons of Antaeus, as evidence of traitor geneseed is meaningless. As for their old color scheme...eh, I don't see it. Looks more White Scars to me.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

They might have kept traitors in the SM at first after the HH, but yeah eventually they would not be present as their geneseed likely would be seen as corrupted by the AdMech and High Lords.


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## VulkansNodosaurus (Dec 3, 2010)

On chapters from traitor gene-stock: yes, they would probably be destroyed (after a certain point in the Imperium's degeneration) if the truth was discovered. Fortunately for them, the Imperium is absolutely terrible at determining the parentage of a Chapter. See: Soul Drinkers, Blood Ravens, etc.. And records are not kept particularly well over ten millennia. Especially if their discovery would lead to their owners getting killed.

On the Decimation: It's a terrible piece of fluff that was added in to make Perturabo look bad. But at the same time, it can be interpreted in another way - namely, that Perturabo hated his Legion as it was before his finding for good reason, such as that it had zero discipline, or backstabbed each other in a systematic way. The tragedy, then, is that even with brutal means like that Perturabo still failed to make the Iron Warriors into a truly cohesive Legion - but that doesn't mean they weren't even worse before him.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

The decimation was Pertubo's first step towards evil or in this case Chaos, and the fact that he was willing to kill one in every ten Astartes showed how brutal and uncompromising Perturbo were. And even worse, he hadn't yet been on campaign with them yet despite them basically following his doctrine, which I find utterly confusing.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

jareddm said:


> That's my point. There's nothing about the Death Eagles that superficially points to them being of traitor geneseed. Hence using superficial lore, such as what people try to do with the Red Scorpions, Marines Malevolent, Minotaurs, and Sons of Antaeus, as evidence of traitor geneseed is meaningless. As for their old color scheme...eh, I don't see it. Looks more White Scars to me.


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. How about the implications in this Black Library story that some of the Night Lords remained loyal

http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/value-of-fear-ebook.html


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

When it comes to those implications I think some might have stayed loyal initially, but Chaos is the corruption. You just can't fight the corruption by becoming corrupt. There are a few novels about Inquisitors to back my point.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

jareddm said:


> That's my point. There's nothing about the Death Eagles that superficially points to them being of traitor geneseed. Hence using superficial lore, such as what people try to do with the Red Scorpions, Marines Malevolent, Minotaurs, and Sons of Antaeus, as evidence of traitor geneseed is meaningless. As for their old color scheme...eh, I don't see it. Looks more White Scars to me.


So, what do you mean by 'using superficial lore'? The quote posted about the Death Eagles comes from a GW company, ergo, it's canon... until a retcon comes along and changes/eliminates it entirely. So for this case, I suppose you can choose what to 'believe' or not from the canon, but that's your choice to ignore official canon and not a difference in two gamers opinions. I agree with your opinion about the marines color scheme, but one of the hallmarks of the Emperor's Children was the Emperor granting them the right to have the wing emblem on their pauldron, which the Death Eagles model pretty clearly has.

I think the book 'Warriors of Ultramar' highlights perfectly how radically a successor chapter can change over the millenium. The Ultramarines barely recognize their kinship with the Mortifactors, in heraldry or anything else. I do think there are very specific genetic mutations common in certain Founding Legions that can prove the origin of a specific marines geneseed. However, with the mixing of geneseed over time, replenishing a chapter after devestation, or just having the Admech/Administratum 'experiment' with or without a chapters knowledge trying to generalize an entire chapter would be difficult.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

We still have no explanation for Perturabo going daemon prince. He was obviously disgusted by Fulgrim.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Maybe his position of opinion changed, that's my bet in this matter. Plus he is basically the evil counterpart of Rogal Dorn from the get go. I mean Dorn is likely to have chided his legion for not being up to the task, Perturbo decimated them just for that.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

What changed then? People rarely decide that disgusting things are now desirable.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I'm jumping through hoops here, but maybe Chaos twisted his mind, maybe he was guaranteed not to turn into something like that, maybe he did it for candy, and you are wrong, things you dislike as a child you might wake up and enjoy tomorrow. Taste change all the time.

For example: A century ago oyster was served with icecream. Had any great oysters with icecream lately?

I'm not trying to be mean or anything, just demonstrating a point.

If you want the source of my icecream-thingy just go for Hester or Chester Blumenthal or however you spell that surename.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

There's a vault of geneses rumored to open at a certain time in the future. Thats some evidence that traitor geneseed could have been used. 

Due to the different political natures within the Inquisition and the Highlords of Terra, it is entirely possible that a lot of them simply see the geneseed as a perfect weapon created by the perfect "god" emperor. Its corruption determined by the beholder. Every chapter has had started turn and its hardly hard to find that out.


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