# Retiring my Tyranid Army. Think twice before picking them up.



## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

Well its been 2 years since the release of the 5th edition tyranid codex and after much, struggling, adapting and losing again and again I've have decide to shelf them until GW redoes them in 6th edition (3-4 years from now).

Please note this is not a Troll Post nor a Rant, its more of a experience I've had with the 5th edition tyranids.


The last 2 years have been a huge learning curve coming from 4th going onto 5th, and I did expect time to adjust and learn with my tyranid army. 2 years of struggling to put up a good fight and losing again and again. I've grown tired. The Author of or new codex had no idea what he was doing, Points cost not adding up correctly for units and plain old making units unbelievable expensive to promote the use of newer model units (Carinfex nerfed so players would buy trygon models) Giving us next to no long range firepower to deal with Mech heavy vehicles and the mech heavy play style of 5th edition 40k. Getting from one side of the board to the other-side while surviving has you counting on 100% cover saves for the majority of the game. Not to Mention 1/3 of the units in our codex have no Competitive value what so ever (lictors, Pyrovores, Tyrannofex, Carifex) 

I have played a variety of different list, from Swarm heavy, to Nidzilla, to a mix, from games as small as 500pts, to as large as 3,0000 points, all have ended the same. At the gaming club near me people mainly play Eldar, Orks, Dark Eldar, and Space Marines. Based on my many many games I've played seems that all these armies have a answer for everything us tyranid players can field, but we aren't so lucky, didn't take Zoarns? well then that Landraiders gonna be danger free the entire game and good luck trying to get MCs close enough to hit it. Eldar Rangers 2+ cover 36"inch range, Rending on 5 & 6, say goodbye to one MC per round. The only units That really pulls its weight in this army seems to be the Hive Guard and Doom Of Malrlia, and thats it. Now I understand that other people may have better LUCK playing with nids than I or are just playing Scrub players, so telling me that a Hive Tyrant was ALLOWED( cause its the only one would be able to do this) to get in Melee with your, Walker, Skimmer, or Landraider thats GREAT however the people I play are much more smarter then to allow that to happen. below is a list of what I've notice effects the Tyranids List for being competitive.

Lack of INvulsaves is also and problem, only 2 of are units in out codex have invulsaves, Zoarnthropes and are 280pts Swarmlord who only gets it in close combat. 

Monstrous Creatures Lack of Mobility. With only 1 or 2 MCs having a decent Initiative and only one having "Fleet" this ensures that the only thing a MC is going to charge or attack will be what your opponent wants it to.

Lack of Decent Saves For High Cost Models. The average save in warhammer 40k is 3+, Mainly thanks to the marines making up a good chuck of the army pool, So why are all are MCs 3+ and have no invulsave to protect them from long range fire power? Seems were paying in points for the MC and get very little out of it.

Bad HQ Options.Pick up any codex most HQ Choices Have a either and good save 2+, and Invulsave 4,5,6+, or an option to be given a invulsave. wheres ares? a 280 point HQ should come with at least a 5+ invulsave

Tyranids are good at killing Infantry...and thats about it. Attacking the wrong unit in a tyranid force has unforgiving results, and most of the time its not your choice.

Toughness. Are staple toughness is 6.......meaning anything on the board can hurt it, Was it really to much to ask for a T7 or T8 so lacannons would have to earn there kills.

Synapse is now almost worthless. Not only is it only a 12"inch range but it also prevents units from flanking on the enemy. It also forces you to take synapse creatures, the cheapest being 80pts and a hq choice. All in all its makes you army harder to manage with little to no benefits "fearless" being the only thing you gain from it.

In a nutshell the Tyranids Struggle to be Mediocre at best, We simply didnt get enough choices to keep are opponent guessing. Killing synapse is a almost a instant win if you playing a swarm army. And Most MCs dont survive long enough to do anything. 

Things that need to change.
Monstrous Creatures need to be given better abilities, POwers Weapons and 50% model in cover is not as useful as GW thinks it is.

Higher Toughness for are army. To many S8 weapons are able to wound something across the board edge on turn one, Make them earn there kills. 

Cheaper Point Cost. 160pts for Carinfex is ridiculous, Genestealers are also way to expensive for a throw away unit. And a 250 Heavy with no INvul and a T6 is outlandish. 280pt HQ.....need i say more

DEEP STIRKE. Units that cannot Fire or are not meant to Fire should be able to assault when they come in especially when there armor saves are 5+ and you miss Deep striking into cover.



I have shelved this extremely hard to play army and bite my tongue to keep me from calling them completely useless. You'll find me on Chaos Marine board as I have just picked up a Army on Ebay. Thank you for reading my article.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

I approve. I have a Tyranid army but have yet to use them as I did read the codex. The other Tyranid players in my town are using 4 and a 1/2 edition house rule "merged" codexes, which everyone in town have accepted as fair. You're not alone, Tyranids are truly worthless at the moment.

They have gained some nice units but have lost all their unpredictability, tactical choices and list tuning.

They're now just a below average army on auto pilot.


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## ohiocat110 (Sep 15, 2010)

I wouldn't say they're worthless, but the Nids and players got shafted on several things and I really can't blame you for being frustrated. Examples:

Can't take Shrikes as troops for an all-flyer army
The boneheaded FAQ that a Prime can't be in a pod
Opposing transports are one-way invincible psyker shields 
Nerfing of the Doom via FAQ
Virtually no units have access to an assault grenade equivalent
No equivalent of Heroic Intervention for any unit (assault after DS)

It's a shame because the Tyranid codex was close to being a thing of beauty. They just kneecapped it so it "wouldn't be as good as Marines". I also recently ditched a Nid army I was working on in favor of a Blood Angel DoA army.


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## Arkanor (Jan 1, 2010)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> I approve. I have a Tyranid army but have yet to use them as I did read the codex. The other Tyranid players in my town are using 4 and a 1/2 edition house rule "merged" codexes, which everyone in town have accepted as fair. You're not alone, Tyranids are truly worthless at the moment.
> 
> They have gained some nice units but have lost all their unpredictability, tactical choices and list tuning.
> 
> They're now just a below average army on auto pilot.


Throw in the fact that the new DE is just a slap in the face to nids as well. Poisoned 4+ everywhere.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

No Arguing Nids suck, the worst 5th edition to date, which makes me laugh at Nid players so hard now. Your the hivefleets that will eat our Galaxy? :laugh: Yeah right. Well they use to be top tier in 4th... kinda like my CSMs use to be, now your at the bottom. I cant say its ok cause Tau, SoB, and Necs are with ya, because they're getting new dexes next, and sad to say Ward is probaly on 2 of those... so.... sorry.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

Arkanor said:


> Throw in the fact that the new DE is just a slap in the face to nids as well.


They have a unti thats Basically a Ravener on Crack for 1/2 the cost


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> No Arguing Nids suck, the worst 5th edition to date, which makes me laugh at Nid players so hard now. Your the hivefleets that will eat our Galaxy? :laugh: Yeah right. Well they use to be top tier in 4th... kinda like my CSMs use to be, now your at the bottom. I cant say its ok cause Tau, SoB, and Necs are with ya, because they're getting new dexes next, and sad to say Ward is probaly on 2 of those... so.... sorry.


Whats really makes me laugh is the FAQ that came out Made them even worse LOL


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## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

I'll agree to the point that the tyranid codex is probably the worst off codex. But that is not because of what it can do. It is because of the restriction of build in order to perform as good as you want it to. You are very restricted in that Hive Guard are instrumental to success. They need to be represented, not always maxed out, but in some way shape or form. They are the key to suppressing vehicles. You think the previous codex was good? 

You couldn't effectively shoot vehicles with the previous codex. The Venom Cannons can wreck vehicles now. 

Capitalize on this. Don't try running on old pre-concieved notions of stealer-shocks or nidzilla. 

Things like Heavy Venom Cannon hive tyrants. Harpies with heavy venom cannons. Hive guard. Tyrannofexes with rupture cannons. Those can even hurt Land Raiders. Could the previous codex do that? I think not. 

And for crying out loud, have at least two Tervigons. Give them Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs and catalyst. Hand out Feel No Pain to your key units like it was candy. Pop out Gants like you were a one-bug-trailerpark. Use them as a screen for important bugs, and throw them in the way of things that scare the important bugs. 

Play the codex properly. Unlearn what you have learnt, then re-learn it. 




MetalHandkerchief said:


> which everyone in town have accepted as fair. .


I assume you play around Bergen? :\


And look at the FAQ in retrospect. There are no real codex-breaking FAQ's there. Only things that limit builds, as the codex already is - which is sad. The only thing that makes things pretty annoying is the Shadow in the Warp FAQ. That one's really bad.

How you get cover saves from Doom and the Mawloc I won't understand either. 
The no-independent-character-in-spore-pods ruling was also limiting to that build.

None of it completely breaking the codex across the spine.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

Cruor99 said:


> Play the codex properly. Unlearn what you have learnt, then re-learn it.


I did, its fucking useless, Trust me buddy, play them for 2 years in 5th..

As for you trevigon quote, You basic spawn gaunts in the first round and your done.

also its sounds like you've read the codex, but not played it on the table. Allot of the ideas are good on paper then a shitacular in game.


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## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

NewGuy55 said:


> also its sounds like you've read the codex, but not played it on the table. Allot of the ideas are good on paper then a shitacular in game.


Neat assumptions.

Who says you have to spawn gants in the first round? You can spawn them when you are required to. When you need a shield somewhere, or you can launch them an effective 18" into close combat with something. Granted, it's Gants, but hey. 

And I can't quite grasp how you can say my ideas are shit-tacular in game.
Tyrannofexes can make short work of vehicles, and hold out in close combat versus non-dedicated CC things. Most of your big bugs can do that. For everything else, there's shooting and gant screens. 

The Heavy Venom Cannon works as a vehicle suppressor. You require that to be successfull. You may not need it on the Hive Tyrant, but it's neat to have in some shape or form.

And come on, don't tell me with a straight face that Hive Guard are a bad idea. Just don't do that. 

Your lack of invulnerable saves isn't that important when you can give yourself FNP against Missiles - the biggest threat against most of your MC's. 
You can use Tyrannofexes to give cover to tervigons. A Hive Tyrant with a single Tyrant Guard can get cover from hive guard and gant screens and whatnot. Generate your own cover, use what is already there.

Play the tools you have in your codex properly.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

Cruor99 said:


> .
> 
> And for crying out loud, have at least two Tervigons. Give them Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs and catalyst. Hand out Feel No Pain to your key units like it was candy. Pop out Gants like you were a one-bug-trailerpark. Use them as a screen for important bugs, and throw them in the way of things that scare the important bugs.


Okay for one this make the tervigon over 200pts each, two, you have to pass a psych test suffering a wound on a double 1s or 6s, They dont pop outs gaunts like candy, your lucky if you dont roll doubles on round 1. 

Furthermore, Hive guard have a range of 24"inch 30"inch if they move 6 while Lascannons, starcannons, shatterlasers, Lemans russ tanks, all have a range of 36-48" you would lose both synapse in round 2, causing your gaunts to have to pass leadership test under 5, That a horrible Idea.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

Cruor99 said:


> N
> 
> And I can't quite grasp how you can say my ideas are shit-tacular in game.
> Tyrannofexes can make short work of vehicles.


Not your ideas, The Codexes author ideas.


Tyrannofexes are insanely expensive! 265pts just for a S10 weapon? and his BS is only 3. 

in short You opponents just going to take out your tervigons in the first 2 rounds then what?

The point is Im trying to make dont tell me Im playing my army WRONG when im not! I've been Adapting and changing my Tactics for the Last 2 years Nothing comes remotely competitive with tyranids.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

as I remember, you joined and were crying how lame they are and how much they suck. When we got you to explain your army and tactics, lo and behold! it was you was sucking. Just because you cannot win does not mean your army is bad. I play CSM and Crons. Don't complain your codex sucks.


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## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

NewGuy55 said:


> Okay for one this make the tervigon over 200pts each, two, you have to pass a psych test suffering a wound on a double 1s or 6s, They dont pop outs gaunts like candy, your lucky if you dont roll doubles on round 1.


It would place them at 195 points.

All psychers suffer Perils of the Warp some time. It happens. Get over it. You are still Leadership 10, and your feel no pain will go off most of the time, reliably. Your only real issue with that is the lack of reliable anti-psycher abilities. Yet you deal with it, because that is what the codex has in its limits. You take the tools you have, and work them. Just like every Chaos Daemons player does, even though the codex has a very limited set of tools that are unreliable at times.

Again, you do not have to spawn Gants from turn one. And there is a good chance you won't clog up on turn one. You are way too pessimistic about things, and it is clouding your judgement. 



NewGuy55 said:


> Tyrannofexes are insanely expensive! 265pts just for a S10 weapon? and his BS is only 3.
> 
> in short You opponents just going to take out your tervigons in the first 2 rounds then what?


His BS might only be 3, but what you get is more than just a S10 weapon. 2 shots with S10 at BS3 is still decent, and way more than what you had in the previous codex. You also get a big bug with a 2+ poisoned flamer-template, 2+ save, T6 and 6 wounds. You get something that is big, and can draw fire. 
Use it aggressively, don't just sit in the back and plonk away with the Rupture Cannon. That's not what it's there for.

If he's shot out your two tervigons, then you are in luck. Cuz' he hasn't shot out your Tyrant/tyranid primes/whathaveyou. He hasn't shot out your tyrannofex. He hasn't shot out your harpies or gargoyles or raveners. He hasn't shot out your anti-tank in the Hive Guard. 

He's taken out a scoring monstrous creature. 

Yes, the Tervigons are scoring - monstrous- creatures. Or not, depending on where you stick them. I'd advise you to stick to the scoring variant with the termagant cohorts. 

Keep in mind, you aren't taking this firepower without returning some. 24" is quite the distance, and can certainly nab transports. The Heavy Venom Cannon is 36", if I remember correctly, and the Rupture Cannon 48". 

Having 2 Tyrannofexes and a Hive Tyrant or a Harpy can get you a long way in suppressing vehicles, potentially destroying or disabling them, before your hive guard come into play to finish them. All your big bugs can be used in mopping up troops. Your basic Gant can come in extras whenever you need it, and in abundance. And the Tervigon can buff them with counter attack, furious charge and poisoned weapons. That means on the charge, they strike before your average tactical marine. They wound them on 4+ with a reroll. 

That ain't bad.


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## Ashkore08 (Feb 12, 2011)

Im sure that if a player who never played Nids before picked up the Codex, he could make a decent list. Mainly because he has no preconcieved ideas about what has worked, what should work, and what doesnt.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

What do you expect. GW only wants you to win games if you play SPESS MAHRINEZ!!!!

Seriously though, Tyranids did get shafted pretty badly with the new codex.
They do have a couple of strengths, but far too many weaknesses.
If they still allowed the popular 114-point Elite-Dakkafexes from 4th ed, then the codex would be just about on par with the other 5th ed books.
Sure, 6 Dakkafexes is nasty, but they still have to fight for a slot against Hive Guard, Zoans, and Trygons.


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## ashmo (Mar 20, 2011)

Im only new to nids but ive seen two videos of battles which were nids vs orks and nids vs black templars and each time it was a fairly decisive win to the tyranids! From what ive read of the codex you can still field a decent army and if used right can be effective. You also have to remember its all down to the dice roll sometimes you can do some really crap rolls or some great ones which can either help or destroy you.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

NewGuy55 said:


> Okay for one this make the tervigon over 200pts each, two, you have to pass a psych test suffering a wound on a double 1s or 6s, They dont pop outs gaunts like candy, your lucky if you dont roll doubles on round 1.


Actually you would be unlucky TO roll a double on 3 dice, around 44% chance to tap out on any particular roll. 

You should read Oddjobs Ad-Mech After Action reports, they're really good and will give you some really good insights into playing Nid's in 5th Edition.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Im not 100% convinced that nids are a bad codex. There are plenty of things in there that can be a handful to deal with. Oddjob seems to do quite well with them.


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## Reported (Apr 2, 2011)

humakt said:


> Im not 100% convinced that nids are a bad codex. There are plenty of things in there that can be a handful to deal with. Oddjob seems to do quite well with them.


Agree, I see nids players at my local FLGS winning games all the time, even against mech guard, GK etc.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

Cruor99 said:


> It would place them at 195 points.
> 
> All psychers suffer Perils of the Warp some time. It happens. Get over it. You are still Leadership 10, and your feel no pain will go off most of the time, reliably. Your only real issue with that is the lack of reliable anti-psycher abilities. Yet you deal with it, because that is what the codex has in its limits. You take the tools you have, and work them. Just like every Chaos Daemons player does, even though the codex has a very limited set of tools that are unreliable at times.
> 
> ...


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

I was considering picking up a few nid models and starting an army of them...

After reading all this that's not going to happen.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Again read OddJobs reports and you can pick up some really good tips on how to win with them. A poor workmen blames his tools after all.



> I was considering picking up a few nid models and starting an army of them...
> 
> After reading all this that's not going to happen.


He's just scaremongering because he's a bit lame, you play Chaos Daemons so you should be used to a tough match up by now. Nids are not the best nor are they the worst, they're tough to play and tough to play against if used well.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Weapon said:


> I was considering picking up a few nid models and starting an army of them...
> 
> After reading all this that's not going to happen.


Ignore NewGuy55.

For months now he has done nothing but complain about how crap the Tyranids are because he can never win a game.


I know a guy who plays Tyranids, and he does quite well with them, winning about 80% of his games against a variety of opponents, and with a list that is sub-par.
The reason he does well is because he uses TACTICS, rather than just point-and-click and hope for the best.


If Tyranids appeal to you, then go for it mate! 
They are an awesome looking army, and their style is a lot of fun to play.
Sure, their codex may not be as powerful as BA, SW, or IG.... but with a bit of skill you will be surprised at how effective they can be.

Dont let some inexperienced stranger on the interwebz put you off just because they don't have the skill level to win a game. 
Its a game. Its supposed to be fun, not a matter of life and death. 






Aramoro said:


> A poor workmen blames his tools after all.


Dead right mate.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> A poor workmen blames his tools after all.


Yeah, but so does a master workman with bad tools. 

However, I readily concede that a master workman with bad tools will likely make something of more value than a poor workman with good tools.

That said, I am inclined to agree with you, that a person who says they never win is probably not playing wisely.

Cheers,
Kreuger


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## Hammer49 (Feb 12, 2011)

I havent see your lists or know how you play, but rather giving up why dont you try having more terrain on the table, or changing armies with an oppenent, it may give you a different perspective on where your going wrong. You would also be able to see how someone else would use your list, and it may give you some more ideas.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Hold on a second. Played 5th Ed Nids for 2 years? I call bullshit! They havn't even been out for 1 and 1/2 yet!

I suggest that you look over the codex again. Even during the reign of codexes like BA and SW Tyranids have proven capable of winning major tournaments and still are scary to face against. The only retarded rule I see is avoiding Shadow of the Warp if in a transport. As for the nerfing of the Doom well I say he needed it. A 90 point model that can cause so much damage and with no deficits? Dream on!


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

sounds to me like your opponents have just got you in there pocket, shelve them and go doing something less boring instead, get yourself to some Eldar


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> sounds to me like your opponents have just got you in there pocket, shelve them and go doing something less boring instead, get yourself to some Eldar


Eldar! FTW!


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

NewGuy55 said:


> Play 1,000pts with nids and I promise that just comparing what you have on the table to what your opponent has you will feel like you already have a huge disadvantage before the game even starts. I've played tyranids for 5 years now and Trust when I say the codex is a real let down and extremly weak when compared to almost any other army.


I've played Tyranids since 2nd Ed 40K. I've seen Genestealers go from the scariest foot trooper out there, to little better than a poorly-armoured marine and yet still I can tear units apart with them, if used right. I recently discovered the joys of Outflanking, and am playing with that at present.
With 5th Ed I'm limited with what models I have available to me (most of my older models got nicked in a house-move years ago), yet I can still win 50%, if not more, of the 1000point battles I play every week. 

Yes, I play Tyranids, and I play them at 1k level, and I regularly have fun and win. And when I don't win, I learn what I've done wrong and adapt. I refuse to be bound by what people say is a "must-have-to-win" unit, like Hive Guard and Zoanthropes, and as such am not afraid to play 1k lists with (for example) 2, sometimes 3 Tervigons in them, or all-warriors, or theme my army so it's all Toxic... 

In short, the potential to win is there. I agree with the mentality of "forget what you learnt from previous editions", as it will only hold you back and make you bitter. I could rant for hours about losing my WS7, S6, A4 'stealers, but that wouldn't help me win games now, would it?

Now, I must go write my list for tomorrows game. I think I want to try out my Harpy this time...


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## Ashkore08 (Feb 12, 2011)

Well if you're so over Tyranids NewGuy55, ship me your army, all the way here in sunny South Africa. i bet i can put them to better use than standing on a shelf.

And yeah, OddJob makes good work of Tyranids. His battle-reports are pretty good.


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## jd579 (May 8, 2010)

Have to agree with Cruor99. Lets get some perspective. Zoanthropes a 3+ invulnerable save hardly crap unless you think storm shields are gash as well, coupled with a strength 10 warp lance, goodbye any armour on the board, and a strength 5 AP3 warp blast marine killer come on now.
A winged Hive tyrant which I know from experience that slaughters death company dreadnoughts and death company with it which aint to be sniffed at, Tyranids are only good at killing infantry!!! MC will tear any vehicle apart and even a lonely Gaunt with adrenal glands will stun lock APC's no probs if you hit it with enough of them, remember you don't always have to kill you opponent to make him ineffective. Psychic dependent units, and im thinking of Grey knights here can get shutdown easily with shadow of the warp especially when you combine it with a death leaper, Minus 3 to you leadership, cheers Draigo, Njal and any other power psykers. Hive guard, have as much staying power as any other devastator squad. Create you own cover as Cruor99 says, swarm you Gaunts around what you need to survive long enough to do the damage Genestelers, especially a brood lord is lethal enough said on that.
280 pts is expensive for an HQ your right, but Grimnar is 275 and a swarm lord will give him real probs FACT, and there are plenty of other HQ's that are that price range as well, and there is no complaints from them either.
To be honest I could go on all day but sounds like you just need a break from the Nids, lose with Chaos a few times and you will see its not just Nids that have the weaknesses that seem to make your opponents army always seem that much better.


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

I don't get how you've been playing the current Codex for two years given that it came out in January last year.

You bemoan the Eldar having Pathfinders that have Rending Sniper Rifles and a 2+ save, if in cover, from Ranged Attacks. Well, in my experience, there's only usually seven/eight of them in a unit. Say 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, that leaves you with a live Carnifex. And then your Raveners or whatever fast moving Close Combat unit arrive and rip them apart. (You do try to kill fragile, shooty Elites in Close Combat don't you? Tell me you don't try to outgun them...)


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

I don't understand why people think I'm saying the nids are useless, I'm never wrote that! I said there very very hard to play, and the majority of people who play nids see this. "weak man blame his tools" again someone who DOESNT play nids telling me it's easy to win, you can't use a flat head screwdriver to open a Philips screwhead, you can't use a hack saw to cut down a giant redwood.  don't pick them up unless you want a vet very hard fight, in some cases people do, geez I write a article and people jam words in my mouth.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

Pssyche said:


> I don't get how you've been playing the current Codex for two years given that it came out in January last year.
> 
> You bemoan the Eldar having Pathfinders that have Rending Sniper Rifles and a 2+ save, if in cover, from Ranged Attacks. Well, in my experience, there's only usually seven/eight of them in a unit. Say 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, that leaves you with a live Carnifex. And then your Raveners or whatever fast moving Close Combat unit arrive and rip them apart. (You do try to kill fragile, shooty Elites in Close Combat don't you? Tell me you don't try to outgun them...)


They use 10 in a squad and take 3 walkers with either scartter laser, or star cannons. And they all take the exarc?(sp?) reroll misses and failed wounds I usually lose a mc on the first turn.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

NewGuy55 said:


> you can't use a flat head screwdriver to open a Philips screwhead


Yes you can.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

Aramoro said:


> Yes you can.


Depends on the size...

Semantics


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

bitsandkits said:


> sounds to me like your opponents have just got you in there pocket, shelve them and go doing something less boring instead, get yourself to some Eldar


That's exactly the problem, but my codex makes it very difficult to mix it up.


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## jd579 (May 8, 2010)

LOL:laugh:


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

KingOfCheese said:


> Ignore NewGuy55.
> 
> For months now he has done nothing but complain about how crap the Tyranids are because he can never win a game.
> 
> ...


Yes ignore me, I apparently know nothing about my army, even though half the people bringing me down don't play tyranids, and know "friends" that win, that's not exactly good proof that what I'm saying isn't true. They in fact very hard to play and not very competitive.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Would the game be fun if everything was easy to play?

Also *I *run a Nidzilla list guess what people are complaining its too cheesy.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

aboytervigon said:


> Would the game be fun if everything was easy to play?
> 
> Also *I *run a Nidzilla list guess what people are complaining its too cheesy.


Can you send me your list? I would like to see what your taking to be consider cheesy.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

NewGuy55 said:


> Yes ignore me, I apparently know nothing about my army, even though half the people bringing me down don't play tyranids, and know "friends" that win, that's not exactly good proof that what I'm saying isn't true. They in fact very hard to play and not very competitive.


I agree with you that they are a hard army to play, and they are less powerful than say Wolves or Guard, but they can still be competitive when played with good tactics.

I admit that my post probably was a little harsh, and i do apologise, but i am sure that you can see where i am coming from.

And for the record, i played Nids ever since 3rd ed, and only just went away from them over the last 6 months or so, so i have a fairly decent concept of their tactics (won over half my games with them).


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

The list isn't cheesy it's how I play it.

HQ
Swarmlord
Elites
Hive guard
Troops
Tervigon
-Catalyst
10 Termagants
Heavy support
Trygon
-Adrenal glands
Trygon
-Adrenal Glands

for 1000 points.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

aboytervigon said:


> The list isn't cheesy it's how I play it.
> 
> HQ
> Swarmlord
> ...


Do you deep strike your trygons?


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Yes Behind my enemy to divert fire onto them while everything else advances.

But Im thinking of running this

HQ
Tervigon
-Catayst
Elites
Venomthrope
Troops
20 Hormagaunts
-Toxin sacs
20 Hormagaunts
-Toxin sacs
Heavy support
Carnifex
Carnifex
Carnifex

Its way worse but it will be much more fun.


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## TraceofToxin (Jan 26, 2010)

Tyranids are the worst of the 5th codexes. With that said, they're still a solid codex. On a scale of 1-10, they're a 7. There are a few builds where you've got some serious work cut out for you, but in a TAC setting, Tyranids aren't too bad off. I've only ever run into one list where I felt I had no chance to win (Venomspam go!) and a handful where I knew I needed some serious luck (SM Bikes, Parking lot). 

I don't feel Tyranids were nerfed in the 4-5th codex update, it was more of a lateral change. We gained and we lost. Honestly I think the FAQ did more damage than the codex change.


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

NewGuy55 said:


> Yes ignore me, I apparently know nothing about my army, even though half the people bringing me down don't play tyranids, and know "friends" that win, that's not exactly good proof that what I'm saying isn't true. They in fact very hard to play and not very competitive.


And where is the proof that it isn't you just sucking at the game if I might ask?


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Tossidin said:


> And where is the proof that it isn't you just sucking at the game if I might ask?


NewGuy55 is correct to an extent.
They are a difficult army to play, and have a much smaller margin for error compared to something like Marines.
It is possible that he does have trouble playing the army sometimes, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he is a bad player. He could play Marine armies quite well.
To win consistently with Tyranids, you need to know the army very well, and think multiple turns ahead and constantly re-evaluate your strategy.
They are still competitive, they just require the extra effort to make them work.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Go cheese his words are Gouda.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Hang on again. Isn't every NON-power armoured army hard to use. Is that not the point of them but they can be better in some areas when used properly. It is one of the main learning points I had transfering to marines from Eldar.


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## jd579 (May 8, 2010)

I know how you feel, just started with nids myself from space wolves, WOW steep learning curve, and not very forgiving of mistakes thats for sure.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

NewGuy55 said:


> Depends on the size...
> 
> Semantics


I think you mean Pedantic....


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

TEN PATHFINDERS AND YOU'RE NOT RIPPING THEM APART IN CLOSE COMBAT?

That's 240 points. In one place. Toughness 3. Armour 5+. 1 Wound. And you're not ripping them to shreds in Close Combat?
Are you insane?

And to take down your MC it has taken the Eldar 550 points of concentrated fire which has allowed your swarms to close on the enemy and get within assault range, relatively unmolested.


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## Unforgiven302 (Oct 20, 2008)

I like nids, I like them a lot. I Just started up with them not too long ago and I think it is a well written codex as far as options, units, fluff and abilities goes. Is it a more advanced army to use? Oh hell yes, it has to be one of the harder armies to learn and to use to good effect. I think if you want to enjoy the game, have a good time and play an army that can challenge you and your opponent, then nids are a solid choice. I like the way the codex represents the army. It is the small things I see in the codex that makes it fun and fluffy. For one, all the psychic powers are assault type. Very fitting for an assault biased army. I also like how you can option out almost every unit in the book. Be it toxin sac's or rending claws or whatever, you have a lot of stuff to fool around with and play test to see what works best on what unit. 

Now I am speaking from a purely fun "beer and pretzels games" type play style, I am not a waac or tournament player. Nids fit my requirements quite well as that is my thing, being fluffy and characterful with my armies. If your looking to win tournaments and pound your opponents ass into a mud hole, then look to blood angels or space wolves, they seem to have that going for them at the moment.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

Pssyche said:


> TEN PATHFINDERS AND YOU'RE NOT RIPPING THEM APART IN CLOSE COMBAT?
> 
> That's 240 points. In one place. Toughness 3. Armour 5+. 1 Wound. And you're not ripping them to shreds in Close Combat?
> Are you insane?
> ...



I CAN'T GET TO THEM!!!!!!!!!


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## Epidemius (Nov 15, 2010)

I don't play tyranids but a friend of mine does. he almost always loses and I feel really bad for him, I thought that maybe he just needed a new strategy but upon closer examination I realized the rules for 'nids just suck. They could at least make the units cheaper so you could take more in a game. I also agree with your point with monstrous creatures, every 'nid player I've seen in a game gets all their carnifexes gunned down before they can even assault, its unfair. Synapse is also seriously lame, its just a giant weakspot in the army that once its gone your screwed.


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## VX485 (Feb 17, 2011)

have you tried new dice?


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

NewGuy55 said:


> I CAN'T GET TO THEM!!!!!!!!!


Well tell use why, they're just 10 guys, totally stationary , a maximum of 36" away. Gargoyles will have them sorted out on turn 2.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Outflank Genestealers.
Or pop 3 Trygons up next to them.
Problem solved.


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## Ashkore08 (Feb 12, 2011)

I dont play nids, but a friend of mine gave me his Codex a while ago. Heres a list i came up for the fun of it. For anyone who plays nids, it must look terrible.

HQ: 
Hive tyrant: 260
TL devourer with brain leech
Hive commander
Adrenal glands
Armoured shell

Tyranid Prime: 100
Bone swords x2
rending claws
Adreenal glands

Troops:
Warrior brood: 180
Spine fists
6 models

Hormagaunt brood: 120
20 models
Hormagaunt brood: 120
20 models
Hormagaunt brood: 120
20 models

Fast attack
Ravenor brood: 90
3 models


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## kuneho (Nov 11, 2010)

I dont understand why do people kept on ranting about hive guards and tervigons being auto-include in a competitive tyranid list, why not rant about long fangs in space wolves or chimeras in IG.  

Tyranids has a very steep learning curve, you have to keep on practicing with them until you get a hang with it. As soon as you get to know how to propely utilize each unit, winning would be easy as breathing. I guarantee you that. 

A common misconception about tyranids is that most players think of them as an uber assault army. Yes, they are good in assault, but you must support them with shooting first. Use devourers to open up light tanks or weaken units, 12 S6 shots; biovores or barbed strangler to pin units in cover to ignore "assault through cover" due to lack of assault grenades; Impaler cannons, warp lance, rupture cannon, and venom cannons to open up those lunch boxes. 

I just won a Major tournament here called the Gladiator league, with 40++ players, mostly consist of space wolves. But mind you, only 2 players played nids (including me), and both of us fought for the crown in the finals. Who can say tyranids are not competitive? even in adepticon, tyranids is in the top 4.

Aside from oddjobs' awesome tactics and battle reports, you can also check this site: www.synaps3.blogspot.com

just my 2 cents


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Tyranids still strike me as being a very good army. Sure you don't have any invulnerable saves, but so what? Your Hive Tyrants are T6 with 6 wounds and strike at I5! They don't need invulnerable saves, oh and you can take Tyrant guard as well!

Mawlocs are arguably one of the deadliest deep-striking units in the game due to their 'all you can eat buffet' attacks and I'm surprised that I've never seen anyone take two of them in a list.

Plus you've got the ability to pull off one hell of a flank assault with Mawlocs, Trygons and Genestealers, a move which can wipe an army out in a couple of turns. Warriors too, are a good choice with lots of re-rolls making them a deadly close combat army.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

The list i used to run was just a Tyrant with Hive Commander (for the +1 to reserves), 3 deep striking Trygon Primes, and a shitload of outflanking Genestealers.

Its a weak list against mech-heavy armies, but it strikes fear in the opponent, and i managed to win at least 2/3 of my games with them against marines.

Running 2 units of 2 Hive Guard and 2 Zoans in a Pod along with this would make a decent 1850-2000 point list.


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## Cowlicker16 (Dec 7, 2010)

I'm not a real competitive player, usually just just playing some buddies but I just love the shock and awe factor of tyranids...oh look you've just killed 30 little guys in 1 turn (curse you assualt termies) but then BAM!! Terror from the Deep and 20 Gargoyles pooped out of nowhere!! 

But in those few cases of seriusness I have actually put up some really close matches, haven't won anything serius but I am decent at thinking how best to move my guys down the field and of course you can not completly cut out ranged weapons, my favorite being the biovores. So yes, very hard army to win with if you can not come up with a great rythem of all the Hive Mind's minions working perfectly in synch...not to mention the dice gods have it out for me or something


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

NewGuy55 said:


> They use 10 in a squad and take 3 walkers with either scartter laser, or star cannons. And they all take the exarc?(sp?) reroll misses and failed wounds I usually lose a mc on the first turn.


Which, especially in a 1k game, should leave you with at least 1 other MC, and three to five squads of fast moving troops that they haven't touched. 

If Eldar, in 1k, have taken three War Walkers armed like that and a 10-strong unit of Pathfinders, have just used half their army allowance in one go. Add to that they have to have an HQ and at least one other troops choice, there's not much else in there that can deal out a hefty amount of damage to your other critters fast enough. 

In 1k, I am in combat by turn two, three at the very latest. So you lose a MC in turn one, big deal. I'm used to it. I just make sure it's one I don't mind too much losing. If fighting Eldar, even getting one unit of Hormogaunts with Toxin Sacs and Adrenal Glands into combat will really ruin their day. You will always outnumber them at least 2-1 if they've been shooting your MCs, and even going after them with their high initiative you'll usually wipe most of the squad out. 

It's not just about picking your targets right, it's about presenting them with the targets _you_ want them to shoot too...

_Edit_: You say you can't get to them, why is that? There shouldn't be anywhere on the board they can get to that you can't. If they are infiltrating onto impassable terrain, then when setting up the board you should point out that if all the sides are impassable, they can't magically teleport on top of it :wink:


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## Yousei (Nov 4, 2009)

KingOfCheese said:


> To win consistently with Tyranids, you need to know the army very well, and think multiple turns ahead and constantly re-evaluate your strategy.
> They are still competitive, they just require the extra effort to make them work.


This comment holds the most truth in the thread. They are an army that benefits from a changing strategy, and the ability to think ahead.

To anyone struggling with this army (or a number of other armies that require similar tactical shifts) i suggest going and playing Chess for a while. You'd be suprised at the number of concepts that transfer. 40k just allows you to customise the pieces on your side.


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## sir_m1ke (Dec 7, 2008)

Methinks this topic reeks of tactical epic fail...

From my point of view, picked tyranids up about 3 months ago after struggling by with my Eldar in 5e. I play against tourney players using competitive armies, and after a shakey and difficult start i am now unbeaten with the nids in 20+ games (there is a fair share of draws, but mainly at the start of my gaming with the nids- currently in my gaming clubs league i am 4-0 up and about to conquer the planet) over a variety of points levels, from 1000 pts when i started up to my current level of 1500-1750pts

did i discover the secret winning formula?? hell no! i play a list that most people on the interwebs would say is non-competitive (no tervigons, only 2 hive guard in 1750pts, 1 trygon and 1 hive tyrant as only MCs...) but the fact is i play a list i am comfortable with, a list that i enjoy using and i have theory hammered the shit clean out of, and then taken to the board and learned about rather than just trusting some guy on the web who tells me hive guard/tervigon spam is the be-all and end-all of nid lists

yeh, nids are the least powerful of all the 5e codex armies, but they are a potent and powerful force if played like NIDS, not MARINES. They dont blast you off the table, they dont park in their tanks, they dont run around with a hundred melta shots/missle launchers- they hit you from every direction, are on your shooting units in turn 2, they laugh off any and all casualties by not relying on a single rock unit like hammernators to win games and they glance the crap out of your vehicles then surround them and nom nom them.

more than any other army in the game nids need an experienced 40k player using them- nids win by good deployment, favourable matchups and good target priority. no other army can hit you from as many sides as nids, in my standard nid list i have infiltrators, outflankers, deep strikers, board walkers and jump packs, all hitting home hard.

if you are struggling with the nids, you need to look at your tactics and not the army- of all the units in the book, only pyrovores are totally useless, the rest can be utilised and combo'd to great effect

and big shouts to both Oddjob on this forum (who has excellent in-depth tactics) and the guy at synaps3 for proving nids can compete


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

I'm in the process of putting together a Nid force now, and I have no worries.

I think the 'Tyranids are terrible' opinion is a symptom of a different problem: every other 5th edition codex is obscenely overpowered. Nids were the only codex which was balanced and fair, and when you compare that to the incredible advantages of the other new codexes, it seems like they got shafted. There's nothing in the army as powerful as thunderwolves or longfangs, but honestly, nothing should be that powerful. 

Nids are a balanced army that does very well in casual play, and has a couple builds that can do well in competitive play. All in all, they're mid-tier. They're not top tier, but the top tier armies are all 5th edition ones that got unfair advantages.

That said, there are some problems with the Nids that can make them difficult to play. I don't think they make the army 'terrible', but they do exist:

1. Everything great is an elite choice. 

Man, is that slot crowded. If you're playing the doom of malantai, hive guard, and podded zoanthropes (as you probably should be), then you won't be able to take any of the other great options, or take more than 1 unit of each of the above.


2. The current metagame shreds monstrous creatures with 3+/4+ armor and no inv save

With so many mechanized lists out there, everyone's taking a ton of anti-vehicle shooting, most of which in the form of auto-cannons and missile launchers. Your average competitive list will be able to shred your monstrous creatures unless you give them cover, or use Tyrannofexes, which are really expensive. Personally, I'd rather have 2 harpies instead, as long as I can keep them alive.


3. Dawn of War can royally screw over your strategy

Monstrous creatures are slow, and the last thing you want is your fantastic hive tyrant and guard retinue having to slowly walk up the board towards your opponent's distant gunline. Tervigons aren't much better at getting close. Unless you invested in a lot of outflanking and/or deepstriking units, a Tyranid player can easily find themselves fighting for a 'draw' right from the start.


4. They dramatically changed the way you play the army.

I know a lot of nid players, and a lot of them miss 4th edition, but not because they're winning less. No, they simply miss the way the Nids used to play. They really liked overwhelming their opponents with countless hordes and dirt cheap monstrous creatures. This doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the way the army plays now, but if GW wanted to go in a completely different direction with the army, perhaps it would've been better if they released a completely different army, rather than radically alter the existing one.


5. Alphas don't have the option to join pods or take wings

It's strange, as you'd think they'd be able to do both, but they can do neither. They're still effective, but have far more limited uses than they really should.


All in all, they're good, but aren't as easy to use as the other 5th edition armies. I don't think this really matters though, as skill is a lot more important than how competitive your army is. The army does matter, of course, but I'd say it's about 25% army/list, 25% luck, and 50% skill. If you're losing all the time, then it can't always be the army's fault.


Follow Warhammer Fantasy? One of the 'bottom tier' armies at the moment is the Ogre Kingdoms. They do very well in normal play, but because of a few spells that get spammed a lot in competitive settings, they're considered completely uncompetitive, and the only person I've seen play them at tournaments is myself.

Regardless, I won the local Ard Boyz with them two weeks ago, defeating three cheesed out armies in a row: first Tzeentch daemons, then Lore of Life Lizardmen, and finally super elite Chaos Warriors with Lore of Death. 

How you play matters a lot more than what you play. ^_^


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

mynameisgrax said:


> 4. They dramatically changed the way you play the army.
> 
> I know a lot of nid players, and a lot of them miss 4th edition, but not because they're winning less. No, they simply miss the way the Nids used to play. They really liked overwhelming their opponents with countless hordes and dirt cheap monstrous creatures. This doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the way the army plays now, but if GW wanted to go in a completely different direction with the army, perhaps it would've been better if they released a completely different army, rather than radically alter the existing one.


This was the main reason why i stopped playing them.

Personally i loved walking 6 Elite-style Carnifexes and 2 cheap Tyrants up the board while Genestealers outflanked from the sides. I loved the feel of the numerous big critters popping transports and distracting the enemy while the Genestealers snuck in to clean up.

The new codex completely killed that, and made Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants as a more powerful but less numerous creature rather than the Elite-style creature i had grown accustomed to.

Admittedly though, i actually had a BETTER win:loss ratio with the 5th ed Codex than what i did with the 4th ed, but the play style just didn't appeal to me anymore.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Swarm. Works best. Swarm with big guy support. 

The most successful list I`ve come across didn`t have a single MC in it. Won two out of three games. The only downside was having to move 100+ models three times per turn. :laugh:


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> The only downside was having to move 100+ models three times per turn. :laugh:


I know how annoying that can be.
My old 1500 point Ork list had over 200 models in it.
Never again. :laugh:


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Tyrant guard don't take up a slot.


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## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

NewGuy55 said:


> Well its been 2 years since the release of the 5th edition tyranid codex and after much, struggling, adapting and losing again and again I've have decide to shelf them until GW redoes them in 6th edition (3-4 years from now).
> 
> Please note this is not a Troll Post nor a Rant, its more of a experience I've had with the 5th edition tyranids.
> We shall see
> ...


And thankyou for your rant. You are just bashing other people because you can't , don't or won 't play them right our your way. Have fun with your army and not focuing on winning

*Haveing trouble with keyboard so excuse poor grammer and spelling


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

Looks like you've all said it for me.
One dead Monstrous Creature is an acceptable loss if it guarantees the rest of your army remains relatively intact and arrives in assault with your opponent's elite, shooty, points expensive, fragile troops on turn two.


I'm an Eldar player and I would never dream of taking a squad of TEN Pathfinders to any battle, let alone one against Tyranids. They'll get one round of shooting off, possibly two and then they're dead. They can't kill a swarm fast enough to avoid being assaulted.

As for being out of Synapse Range, so fucking what?
You're trying to get your creatures across the board and into Close Combat as fast as possible.
So they fail their Instinctive Behaviour Test, "Oh, no! Instead of moving towards, running at and assaulting the closest enemy unit, I am now forced against my will to move towards, run at and if possible assault the nearest visible enemy unit! It's so unfair..."

I'm guessing here that your opponent doesn't drop a unit in behind you just on the off chance that you fail the test and force you to run backwards. And even if he does, they'll be dead when you get there.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

The tyranid harpy is incredibly fast and is a MC.


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## Ashkore08 (Feb 12, 2011)

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HordeOfAlienLocusts

Tyranids should be all about this. Scroll down to the tabletop games subsection to check it out.


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

aboytervigon said:


> Tyrant guard don't take up a slot.


Doh! I meant the Doom of Malantai. I'm not sure how I got that mixed up with Tyrant Guard.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Well if you take out the "of" shorten it a bit and replace every single letter with a different one you get Tyrant guard.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

NewGuy, I'd just like to express my regret that you've had about half the site jump on you and tell you that you suck at 40K. Unfortunately, a lot of people posting here are coming from a background of casual gaming with Tyranids against other casual gamers/lists. Very few have played with/against the 5th edition Nids in a competitive setting which is why so many people are disagreeing.

First, yes, the Tyranids are sub-par compared to the other 5th edition Codecies. There are a lot of reasons for this and I won't go into them since you seem all too aware. As a Tyranid player, you're going to have to accept this and either work around the army's problems or start a new one. I think I remember reading that you picked up a Chaos army on eBay? Not what I would've suggested for you, but if you did end up doing that I wish you success.

Next, you mentioned that you're playing at 1,250 points. Games of less than 1,500 are a fucking joke as far as balance is concerned, so I'd strongly suggest that you begin playing larger games. At about 1,750-2,000 Tyranids are probably at their strongest in that they can make the most effective TAC (Take All Comers) lists at this size. In smaller games you can't afford to take all the tools you need to have a fighting chance and in larger ones other armies like Imperial Guard become almost unstoppable.

Lastly (and this is just a guess, I don't know you personally so I really can't be sure), I think part of your issue may be that you're not using some of the better units in the book. You mentioned that Lictors and Carnifexes suck (which I'd agree with) but also wrote off Tyrannofexes, which are one of the Tyranid's greatest assets in the current mech heavy metagame. There will in all likelihood be a flurry of members disagreeing with my suggestions, but (assuming that you're playing larger games, at least) I'd take two Tyrannofexes with rupture cannons at 1,750 points and higher. In short, the reasoning for this is that as good as Hive Guard are they're not overly difficult to kill for many of the armies in the game as a lot of competitive lists have the ability to unleash a storm of S7 AP4 shots (or something similar) which rip Hive Guard apart even if they're in cover. Since Hive Guard are so often picked off early game you _must_ have more anti-tank firepower in your list. Tyrannofexes are perfect for this as they have a good rate of fire (seriously, 2 shots at S10 is awesome, even with an average BS) and are extremely difficult to kill. As Monstrous Creatures, they're not subject to Shaken and Stunned results, so your opponents will need to kill them to silence their guns.

I'd advise you to stay away from Zoanthropes if only because psychic hoods and similar are literally everywhere in competitive lists nowadays and the Zoanthropes won't get to fire often enough to make them worthwhile. Additionally, if you have points, upgrades like devourers can make a huge difference on Hive Tyrants.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

KingOfCheese said:


> Outflank Genestealers.
> Or pop 3 Trygons up next to them.
> Problem solved.


If they come in on turn 2, that is, besides he puts them in high terrain, toward the middle of his board edge so outflank does nothing to help me. 3 trygons is a insane amount of points as well, and if only 1 out of 3 come in on turn 2, he's gonna die before he assualts anything, 

I've tried gargoyles as well but the second they see I'm going for his snipers it's open season, and sometimes there's not always cover for me to get in, then it's 24 scatter laser shot with rerolls to hit and wound and I dont get feel no pain since there S6. Then the shrunken catapults argggv


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Hive tyrant with hive commander??????? my swarmlord makes sure I get the trygons.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> NewGuy, I'd just like to express my regret that you've had about half the site jump on you and tell you that you suck at 40K. Unfortunately, a lot of people posting here are coming from a background of casual gaming with Tyranids against other casual gamers/lists. Very few have played with/against the 5th edition Nids in a competitive setting which is why so many people are disagreeing.
> 
> First, yes, the Tyranids are sub-par compared to the other 5th edition Codecies. There are a lot of reasons for this and I won't go into them since you seem all too aware. As a Tyranid player, you're going to have to accept this and either work around the army's problems or start a new one. I think I remember reading that you picked up a Chaos army on eBay? Not what I would've suggested for you, but if you did end up doing that I wish you success.
> 
> ...


:goodpost: I agree that Nids are weak, even on paper. They are just like CSMs now. Very few options to make a decent list. People who jump on you are ethier casual gamers, or the guys with loaded dice that roll 5s/6s in tournies. You can make list that work but its one trick pony at this point, and thats a recent dex :suicide:. Good luck with Chaos, but you picked one codex with few options for another. Im going Guard myself now.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

aboytervigon said:


> Hive tyrant with hive commander??????? my swarmlord makes sure I get the trygons.


280pts, dude and unless he's behide a wall he usually dies round 1, or beginning of round 2.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> NewGuy, I'd just like to express my regret that you've had about half the site jump on you and tell you that you suck at 40K. Unfortunately, a lot of people posting here are coming from a background of casual gaming with Tyranids against other casual gamers/lists. Very few have played with/against the 5th edition Nids in a competitive setting which is why so many people are disagreeing.


I'm not saying he's bad because he's having a tough time with Nids, I'm saying hes bad because I've read his other post on this site. That and he's doing a full on toys out the pram flounce, to CSM of all things.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

It boils down to a simple question. Should NewGuy go with an army he likes or one he considers competitive?

As we know he's chosen Chaos Space Marines, which is probably an army he likes and one which remains quite competitive, so good for him.

More often than not topics like this end up becoming a bad army vs bad player debate with half of all posters arguing that a certain army just can't handle certain units anymore, while the other half talk about the fact that unless you take the right units you're not using the army properly.

In some cases I'd say the latter is true and I'm guilty of this myself (running ten burna boyz on foot is not a good idea), other times I'd say people just are't willing to experiment. With Tyranids it's hard to tell. I've only played them three times and I lost each time, but one thing is apparent.

They're an elite army. Yes I said elite. Unlike Orks, where even a simple mob of boyz can be a potent threat to anything short of a Land Raider or Monolith, Gaunts and Gargoyles are limited in their use, so you don't want too many lest it take up room needed for MCs. Here the Nids have two choices which should always be included, Hive Tyrants, who though expensive still dominate a game and Mawlocs, whose unique abilites make them a deadly threat to any opposing unit.

Given their burrow rule, I've never understood why people seem to prefer Trygons. Sure the latter can shoot when it deep strikes, but that need to deep strike alone makes it a far more uncertain element. Mawlocs may only pop up every other turn, but used in pairs I'm sure they could wreak havoc amongst any battleline.

Then again I'm someone who likes being different, as a CSM player I don't use Obliterators all that much and as an Ork player I've only used Battlewagons a couple of times.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I wouldn't be so sure of your analysis Sullen One, Most of the Nid list I've seen performing well have been Tyrant free. From the site here we can see Oddjob went 5-1 placing 3rd at the UK GT with Nids using an Alpha as his HQ, only 2 MC's in a Tervigon and Trygon. That's just ones it's easy to point to here as well.


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## sir_m1ke (Dec 7, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> Very few options to make a decent list.


I would strongly disagree- the nid codex is full of options, it is just that unlike the marine or guard codex options the nids cannot function independently. Whereas the guard have units like PBS, vendettas, manticores etc. that are strong by themselves, nid units are weak individually but extremely potent if combined and used in conjunction with other units in the codex, creating a strong and effective force. 

Nids work well by working together and providing multiple layers of support. Only Hive Guard and T-fexes can really work in isolation, and even then a gant screen or FnP-boost greatly enhances them- nids cant just be thrown together piecemeal, they need a plan and an understanding of the importance of cohesion and teamwork



Warlock in Training said:


> People who jump on you are ethier casual gamers, or the guys with loaded dice that roll 5s/6s in tournies.


Ill respond to both yourself and Katie with this point- i find it almost offensive to be branded a "casual" gamer just because i am finding success with the nids. Your claim is that we are being to harsh on NewGuy by criticising him instead of the army, and yet there are a number of us who have said we are finding nids a good army and you claim it is either due to luck or our opponents/gaming environment- a tad hypocritical in my view. 

From my own point of view, my most common opponents are Vulkan marines, Space wolves (long fang spam in one army and thunderwolf spam in the other), Blood Angels and a Dark Eldar that is as effective as they can be with the current model range (ie. no venoms, which will make the list much tougher i do understand ) so in terms of army composition it is competitive. The players themselves regularly play in tourneys both here in Norn Iron and over in England, certainly more tourneys than i have. Yet my nids are 4-0 up in the league- it IS getting tougher, as my opponents are learning about my army and combatting it, but i am still winning due to good deployment, knowledge of how to win in each of the 9 possible mission variants (3 deployment types, 3 mission types) and always keeping the mission objective in mind.

Annihilation against space wolves is easily the hardest i have come up against, as much of my anti-marine strategy involves selective sacrifice of units, but i still scraped a win with average dice rolling



Warlock in Training said:


> You can make list that work but its one trick pony at this point, and thats a recent dex :suicide:.


I dont think nids are 1-trick pony, they have a variety of builds that can be competitive TO A CERTAIN EXTENT- the weakest list is probably nidzilla (IMO), but it can still be potent in the right hands. Otherwise you can run swarm, stealershock, spore pod/deep strike force and mid-sized nid forces all effectively. The only difference with the nids is that the WHOLE force has to be focussed, there are no extra units that can be tagged on to the list- its has to have 1 focus and gear all units, weapons and biomorphs towards that choice


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

Almost all nid players I see do one of two things, sit back and shoot or run into close combat. I almost never see them used how I would assume they are supposed to be used. 2 gaunt blobs in front of your stealers and MC's zomg you have a mobile cover save that can kill a lot of stuff should you need to get into close combat. 

Next here is where I face palm... oh your going to sit back and shoot with your carnifex/tyrant/hive guard/tyranofex? why? You have a mobile cover save in front of you that should keep you alive till the late rounds of the game since they are fearless and if your opponent decides to shoot at them they are not shooting at your MC's. The tyrant, carnifex and tyranofex still get 2d6 against tanks which is better than any other anti tank the tyranids got(other than maybe warp lance) so you move forward shooting your heavy venom cannons(which are assault weapons for a reason!) Destroy, Immobilize, Weapon destroy, Shake, Stun your way into combat. Just because your MC has a big gun doesnt mean it cant beat the piss out of a tank.(move your hive guard up with the pack so your opponent doesnt know what to shoot at, no matter what he shoots at will be a bad choice.)

TAKE ZOANTHROAPS! And dont complain about their range, once again move them forward with the other units as a mobile cover save and punk those av14 tanks. 

Your entire army is basically fearless, Genestealers means they cant get into cc with you, gaunts mean you get a cover save/will be able to charge with your more powerful units if they get charged, your MC's will all basically have a 4+ invuln and you can move, shoot and charge with every gun in your army!

Get it out of your head that you must stay still and shoot with a dakka MC! Your goal is CC and if it takes 40 extra points to get a cannon that lets you do anything but explode vehicles and can still assault with it great!

Close combat, close combat, close combat. Take guns and get into close combat! The army has assault everything for a reason!


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

Aside from victories against my cousin Steve, who was also a beginner at the time, do you know how many games of 40k I won the first two years I played?

None. I had some draws, but I never won. 

Then, after a couple years, I began to get a better understanding of the game, and I suddenly began winning. Then I continued to win quite a lot with the Orks, my army of choice, and I wasn't even using the cheesier or more 'competitive' strategies. 

No, after years of playing, I found I was just better at the game than the average player, and I was using an army that suited my play style, and as a result, I could stand toe to toe with 'competitive' armies, and win at least 2/3 of the time.

All in all, you should play an army you love, because you need to enjoy playing them even when you lose. It's only by losing, and learning, that you become a better player. 

If you like Space Wolves, then play Space Wolves, or another competitive army. One of the best players I know has played Space Wolves forever, but he generally doesn't use long fangs, and only uses one small unit of thunderwolves. And you know what? He beat me last time we played at a competitive tournament, and he did it through superior tactics.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

sir_m1ke said:


> I would strongly disagree- the nid codex is full of options, it is just that unlike the marine or guard codex options the nids cannot function independently. Whereas the guard have units like PBS, vendettas, manticores etc. that are strong by themselves, nid units are weak individually but extremely potent if combined and used in conjunction with other units in the codex, creating a strong and effective force.
> 
> So what your saying is that they're hard and unforgiving to play? Thats what Ive been saying.
> 
> ...


Also why quote me and not Katie?


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## sir_m1ke (Dec 7, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> Also why quote me and not Katie?


Sorry about that, dude, i cant seem to get the multi-quote to work and since i was responding to your points i just quoted the one- no offense intended 

As to your reply, I never said nids were easy to play, but i just got a bit annoyed at your statement that everyone defending nids in this thread were either casual players or extremely lucky- i am simply stating the case that that is not true, and that nids are a competitive army that can go toe-to-toe with other armies in the 40k universe. I felt you were doing both the army and the resident nid players on HO a HUGE injustice in that statement

And i definitly never stated i am an awesome player- i was just using my real-life experiences to back up my point- an arguement without evidence (and personal evidence at that) is a poor arguement


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

sir_m1ke said:


> i cant seem to get the multi-quote to work


To use the multi-quote feature, click the multi-quote button on each of the posts that you wish to quote. The button should change colour when selected.

Once you have selected the posts that you wish to quote, click on the Add Reply button at the bottom of the page. 

As for multi-quoting posts that are on different pages..... :dunno:
Would have to do the BBcode tags manually i guess.


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

Games Workshop nerfing rules to make people buy the more expensive model? Well, duh, they're a business. 

From what I've seen in the tyranid codex, it's a pretty solid codex, but obviously like most armies you really need to think carefully about what you're going to be buying. 

The tyranid codex has LOADS of brilliant options, you just have to learn the best to take with each unit. It's a game. I'm not shelving my Chaos because the armies just don't have any flavour am I? No. I am not, however, I am hoping that 6th Edition brings about more individuality for my army.

Also, I'm pretty sure that 'Nids are a hugely playable army, they have great options, and great choices in the codex. This is probably the first time I've heard anyone rant about the Nid codex...

Oh and Edit: It's been 16 months since the Nids codex was bought out  not two years.




KingOfCheese said:


> To use the multi-quote feature, click the multi-quote button on each of the posts that you wish to quote. The button should change colour when selected.
> 
> Once you have selected the posts that you wish to quote, click on the Add Reply button at the bottom of the page.
> 
> ...


It's the same, if they're from different threads at the bottom of the post you just click to include them


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## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

KingOfCheese said:


> As for multi-quoting posts that are on different pages..... :dunno:
> Would have to do the BBcode tags manually i guess.


Generally what I'll do is grab the ones from one page, then when they come up in "reply to thread" window ill cut them, then go back go to the second page of content I wish to quote use the multi-quote function on that page, then once I am in the "reply to Thread" window with all the new quotes I paste the others into it and presto! all the quotes from two pages in the same post! :victory::victory:

As for this crying over Nids I watched to games yesterday one of which the Nid player had won. His tactics were pretty sound and he had some good dice rolls to back it up. The other lost brutally but only because of some lucky shots by his opponent which really crippled him and some poor tactics on his part. 

Im sorry but yes their codex may not be THE BEST but im sure most of the problems lie with the composition the player chooses and the tactics they use. I mean don't get me wrong sometimes you run into armies that have a composition to completely bum [email protected]#k you and there is no way around it. but IT HAPPENS TO EVERYONE just gotta shrug it off.


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## TraceofToxin (Jan 26, 2010)

sir_m1ke said:


> nids are a competitive army that can go toe-to-toe with other armies in the 40k universe. I felt you were doing both the army and the resident nid players on HO a HUGE injustice in that statement


I agree 95% with you, sir_m1ke, except this.

Nids are not competitive. If you take two brand new players, give them GT level lists (See Hulksmash's Tyranids who made 4th at Adepticon and Tony K's Space Wolves who won) the Tyranids will lose the majority of the time. 

This isn't to say they're bad, or that they can't do well... but they're at a disadvantage. They rely on being extremely different from traditional armies and having a skilled general to win. List vs List, in a high level of play setting, they are always at a disadvantage. Not a, "OMG IM SO FUCKED" disadvantage, more of a, "Well, this is rough. Let's see how I can unfuck myself out of this situation"

People blow both sides of this way out of proportion. Nids don't suck. Nids aren't great. Nids can be used as the benchmark for a completely average army. They have tools to deal with MOST situations, at point costs that aren't OVERLY prohibitive. They excel at a FEW things, and are weak in a FEW areas. They're balanced. In a world full of unbalanced, excessive 5th codexes, Tyranids are the king of average. 

In Newguy's case, I think he suffers from a poor list, poor luck, poor generalship and unforgiving competition. I can't however, prove any of that without doing some serious investigation, it's just my initial assessment based on what he's said and how he's said it.

It doesn't matter if you're facing Sisters of Battle or Space Wolves... if their list, luck and generalship is superior, you'll lose. If you face people who stomp your ass day in and day out, you can either analyze the hows, wheres and whys... or you can cry and sell your plastic dudemens for other plastic dudemens. Going from Tyranids to Chaos is not going to cut him much slack, but some people just play certain styles better. 

ALSO - To anyone spouting off about competitive play, if you've never played against a GT level player, or actually SEEN GT level play, please keep your comments about competitive play to yourself. There's nothing wrong with being a casual player, if you just like to toss dice and smash face, keep on keepin' on! Just don't go telling people X sucks because it didn't do anything for you one game. Either use evidence from serious gaming (Yours or others) or math to back your statements up. 

In the same vein, I've seen a lot of people on multiple forums saying Tyranids are competitive because they pulled 4th at Adepticon (Not targetting anyone specifically in this thread, keep in mind!), yet most of those people don't know the list used or the player. Hulksmash is a well respected person among many high level players and he used a list I bet a majority of Tyranid players who critique lists would call subpar. 

TL;DR - Tyranids are fine. Newguy has personal issues with the game. Hulksmash is a beast.


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

TraceofToxin said:


> They rely on being extremely different from traditional armies and having a skilled general to win.


This bit caught my eye, it's exactly the same with Eldar, Necrons, Tau, Dark Eldar etc etc. If you're not good with the army, don't really know how it plays. You're gonna lose. Simples.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

JelloSea said:


> Almost all nid players I see do one of two things, sit back and shoot or run into close combat. I almost never see them used how I would assume they are supposed to be used. 2 gaunt blobs in front of your stealers and MC's zomg you have a mobile cover save that can kill a lot of stuff should you need to get into close combat.
> 
> Next here is where I face palm... oh your going to sit back and shoot with your carnifex/tyrant/hive guard/tyranofex? why? You have a mobile cover save in front of you that should keep you alive till the late rounds of the game since they are fearless and if your opponent decides to shoot at them they are not shooting at your MC's. The tyrant, carnifex and tyranofex still get 2d6 against tanks which is better than any other anti tank the tyranids got(other than maybe warp lance) so you move forward shooting your heavy venom cannons(which are assault weapons for a reason!) Destroy, Immobilize, Weapon destroy, Shake, Stun your way into combat. Just because your MC has a big gun doesnt mean it cant beat the piss out of a tank.(move your hive guard up with the pack so your opponent doesnt know what to shoot at, no matter what he shoots at will be a bad choice.)
> 
> ...


There's just one problem with that tactic. If you are moving forwards and shooting your guns as well, you are moving a grand total of 6" a turn, and will take a minimum of 3-4 turns to make it to close combat, assuming your opponent set up on the innermost edge of his deployment zone and hasn't moved. 

Also, to get that 4+ cover save from any mobile screen, a MC has to be 50% covered, same as tanks do. No termagant or genestealer is big enough to do that for any Tyranid MC. Gargoyles maybe, but foot troops? Not tall enough. 

I have tried the move and shoot option, and all my opponent did was wait a few turns, shooting me as he did so, then started to fall back 6" a turn. His heavy weapons were deployed further back, so weren't affected. Seriously, if you are relying on MCs to do your tank-busting, they have to get there in turn 2 or 3. Any not-fleet MC will never make it to a tank if it shoots instead of running. Most are either dedicated shooters, spawners or fighters, and the list will suffer as you try to make them do both/all, badly instead of the one thing they _do_ do well.

If something doesn't come with a gun for free, I don't bother. A Hive Tyrant does more damage in combat than it ever would shooting, so at most give it one gun, and put wings on it so it doesn't suffer from not running with the rest of the army.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

TraceofToxin said:


> Nids are not competitive. If you take two brand new players, give them GT level lists (See Hulksmash's Tyranids who made 4th at Adepticon and Tony K's Space Wolves who won) the Tyranids will lose the majority of the time.


I disagree strongly that something is only competitive if it is easy to play, that is flat out wrong. The difficultly to play a list does not change it's competitiveness per-say it just skews he results.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> I disagree strongly that something is only competitive if it is easy to play, that is flat out wrong. The difficultly to play a list does not change it's competitiveness per-say it just skews he results.


I agree 100%

Some things are harder to get to work, but can have a lot more potential if you know what you are doing.

Same rule applies for a lot of things in life too, not just war dollies.


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

Aramoro said:


> I disagree strongly that something is only competitive if it is easy to play, that is flat out wrong. The difficultly to play a list does not change it's competitiveness per-say it just skews he results.


Indeed, in fact, where does it say Space Marines are competitive? They are perhaps the easiest army to play, and yet, come like in the mid section of most tournaments. In fact, easy to play generally means best average army...


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## TraceofToxin (Jan 26, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> I disagree strongly that something is only competitive if it is easy to play, that is flat out wrong. The difficultly to play a list does not change it's competitiveness per-say it just skews he results.


I believe you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. My wording was fairly broad, so I can see the way you read that.

My point is, with equal luck and player skill (Which is impossible to obtain, so I said two new players, when I should've said two identical players) Tyranid TAC lists generally are at a disadvantage to other TAC lists.

Competitiveness of an army comes from it's ability to build a list to handle any situation. Tyranids are the weakest of the new codexes in this regard, as they do not have as efficient units (Long Fangs, Venoms, fast Razorbacks/predators, etc) which fill multiple roles as other armies. This is not to say they can't win, but just comparing list to list, they are assed out. 

With that being said, there are a ton more aspects to the game that are outside of the range of the codex to control. Terrain can turn Tyranids from average to extremely deadly very easily. So on and so forth.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

Well obviously this is good debate. However people again keep saying it's my lack of skill therefore it's me and not my army. I strongly disagree. I understand how units work together and understand my army, that's why I'm shelving them. Look I understand I've had angry post about my army in the past and that's why I was pretty CARFULLY writing my article on page 1. I understand that it's easy to call someone a scrub player over the Internet, but I'm just saying this army is sub par. At 1500 points before round 1 I'm thinking to myself "how do I get out of this shitty situation?" and that's the problem unless you list was put togather horribly (and in FEW games mine was) you shouldn't feel your at a disadvantage before the game even starts. Playing with nids is like playing with a handicap. I have never been able to get a MC into Cc to destroy a tank. I got into cc with a monolith but apparently you don't get the +2D6 due to living metal. I've even heard a player in a tournament say "your playing nids? Easy win for me!" 

Allot of the strategies you guys are telling me don't work, I've tried them all, with horrible results. 

I understand how to play my army, and that's exactly why I've decided to shevle them.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

NewGuy55 said:


> I understand how to play my army, and that's exactly why I've decided to shevle them.


I'm sorry but no. I've been reading your posts and if people are dropping 10 Pathfinders and some Scatter-Walkers and wiping you out then you are doing something wrong. It's refusing to accept you're doing something wrong that is making you lose.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Aramoro said:


> I'm sorry but no. I've been reading your posts and if people are dropping 10 Pathfinders and some Scatter-Walkers and wiping you out then you are doing something wrong. It's refusing to accept you're doing something wrong that is making you lose.


Possibly true. Personally I'm not going to judge NewGuy over that one thing. Honestly, I think it's the point level he's playing at more than anything else.

---

For those that are stubbornly insisting that Tyranids are on even footing with the other armies in 40K, would you be so kind as to link to some tournament results that don't include painting and sportsmanship scores in overall points where Tyranids place well (top three preferably)? I realize that Hulksmash's Tyranids did very well in Adepticon (and kudos to him, he's always been a good player and rather nice to me  ), but I'm not sure a single tournament is a large enough sampling size to draw conclusions from.


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## maomolin (May 4, 2008)

Cruor99 said:


> It would place them at 195 points.
> 
> All psychers suffer Perils of the Warp some time. It happens. Get over it. You are still Leadership 10, and your feel no pain will go off most of the time, reliably. Your only real issue with that is the lack of reliable anti-psycher abilities. Yet you deal with it, because that is what the codex has in its limits. You take the tools you have, and work them. Just like every Chaos Daemons player does, even though the codex has a very limited set of tools that are unreliable at times.
> 
> ...


Quoted most of the relevant points. Tyrannofexes MUST be used like a fleshy Land Raider to make full use of it (then 265 pts is the norm for a LR). Adrenal glands will let your smallest of nids glance rear AV 10. Harpies have been gold for me in vehicle suppression (Str 5 MC can still melee them as well).

One of the big issues with Nids (and Orks) is that their best anti-tank is melee. MC's 2d6 (or Ork P.Klaws) are your most reliable means to popping tanks. It just means your ranged anti-tank needs only to Stun / Shake tanks until you can get into combat range (which can be done).

Don't like synapse? Really? I haven't the slightest mind why really, Nids can completely ignore it. Who cares if my Trygon is out of synapse?... oh no its gonna run up on something and attempt to charge it, which is exactly what I was going to do anyways.

Genesteelers are still effective, needs at least 45 of them, but still effective (top 16 at adepticon this year). Nidzilla took a hit, and you will never succeed with them unless you take Venomthropes. V-Thropes have been gold for my wife who almost exclusively plays Nidzilla.

Tyrants can be effective as well, don't knock taking a HVC and Hive Command or Old Adversary. Devilgants (termagants with devourers) have decimated infantry platoons for me. 

Sounds like a vehicle heavy-meta for you, spam anti-tank. I'm not going to say "Learn to Play" or the like, but I think you are missing some key elements to a decent (not on par with Wolves/IG, but still decent) army. Ever thought to ask your opponents for advise or offer to do an army swap (for a game)? How experienced is your local group? I started with necrons in late 3rd against people that had played for 5-10yrs. It took me 6 months of continual losses to come up with what it took to beat 3rd ed / pre-pdf blood angels (and I did it in close-combat). 2 years was the minimal it took to be decent with the older Dark Eldar codex (outside of lance-spam).


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

maomolin said:


> 2 years was the minimal it took to be decent with the older Dark Eldar codex (outside of lance-spam).


I really don't have anything constructive to add to the discussion on nids but I'm currious... even with the new book is there any other way to play DE than darklight spam?

I do well against nids with my DE because short of parking too close to a peice of terrain where Ymgarl's may come out there is no way in hell a nid is going to catch my love boats while I dance over their heads & shoot my lance-fu at their monsters from 36" away. That being said short of relying on the blissgiver my Chaos marines really struggle with nids (an army with hardly any long range fire - noise marines so I put out incredible dakka at 24" but by then it's too late...).


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

Aramoro said:


> I'm sorry but no. I've been reading your posts and if people are dropping 10 Pathfinders and some Scatter-Walkers and wiping you out then you are doing something wrong. It's refusing to accept you're doing something wrong that is making you lose.


well then you go out buy a tyranids army and figure out a effective way to deal with Pathfinders...then you can judge me.

and if failing my cover saves is "doing something wrong" then you got me 

that is to say if there is cover to get into in the first place.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

maomolin said:


> Don't like synapse? Really? I haven't the slightest mind why really, Nids can completely ignore it. Who cares if my Trygon is out of synapse?... oh no its gonna run up on something and attempt to charge it, which is exactly what I was going to do anyways.
> 
> Genesteelers are still effective, needs at least 45 of them, but still effective (top 16 at adepticon this year). Nidzilla took a hit, and you will never succeed with them unless you take Venomthropes. V-Thropes have been gold for my wife who almost exclusively plays Nidzilla.


Synapse Provides a huge weakness in are army I lost synapse in a game once, and my opponent just parked a land raider close to my Hormagaunts and termagaunts, they where stuck attacking a tank they couldn't dmg for the remainder of the game.

Genestealers are good, but there are expensive for a throw away units, meaning they come in kill something then die next turn.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

also Aramoro I dont appreciate your attitude, you dont play my army on a regular basis, so your basically telling me I suck with a army you have no clue how to play, You only look at the codex and go from there, Is it possible Im a Bad player? that may be, but its also possible Im playing a army thats very unforgiving and easy to counter. At this point People Trolling saying Im a Bad 40k player, basically is they're last bullet in there gun of insults. 

I might also add people telling me to "take 3 of these" take 2 Tyrannofexes, but they fail to understand the more stuff I get, also equals to more stuff I have to deal with against my opponents. 

furthermore, The Nids have more weaknesses than strengths, adding to my reason for retiring them "competitively".

I took Tryannofexes once against a eldar army, My Opponent made sure to keep them out of LOS until they where gone, and since you kinda have to Play aggressive with nids and move forward, I lost 1 Tyrannofex Round 1, and the other round 2, IN the mean time I had nothing to shot at but a small squad of Dire avengers and JetBikes.


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## Dagmire (Oct 9, 2008)

Nids were in the top 4 at adpticon.... proving that its the player and not the codex. stop whining!


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Dagmire said:


> Nids were in the top 4 at adpticon.... proving that its the player and not the codex. stop whining!


Once isn't a trend.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

1)You do know rage doesn't force you to assault right?
2) I use 8 genestealers and they always make there points back.
3) who cares if you fail 10 out of 40 gaunt cover saves?
4)Dude your cheap little guys have already made there points back by killing 10 MEQ 
5)Any good Nid player outnumbers his opponent I outnumber my opponent turn 1.
6)If you don't like them why did you play them in the first place?


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

maomolin said:


> ...Who cares if my Trygon is out of synapse?... oh no its gonna run up on something and attempt to charge it, which is exactly what I was going to do anyways.


this is how i know you don't Play with Tyranids, Deep Striking a Trygon Behide enemy Lines Out of Synapse to Attack and certain Units is good, until your opponent moves something you dont want to attack closer your trygon, If you fail your Instinctive behavior check, It can be Game changing. Not to mention your trygon must survive and Whole round of Firing without Dyeing before he assaults anything.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

As I said again he doesn't have to charge.

1 You fail your ld 8 and move around the landraider keeping the same distance apart from it
2 you are now equal distance between the landraider and the thing you want to assault
3 you assault the thing.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

aboytervigon said:


> 1)You do know rage doesn't force you to assault right?
> 2) I use 8 genestealers and they always make there points back.
> 3) who cares if you fail 10 out of 40 gaunt cover saves?
> 4)Dude your cheap little guys have already made there points back by killing 10 MEQ
> ...


1.yes
2. I personally have a hard time getting to my target with Genestealers, outflank sometimes helps, but my opponent does a good job keeping units in the middle of the board if I have units in reserve that outflank
3. Odds are you fail about 50% of your saves on a 4+
4.If i can get there 
5. I usually do have more numbers Im just out ranged and out gunned
6. I picked them up in 4th editon and Loved them after 5th came out I've grown tired of there weaknesses. (NOTE I DONT NOT PLAY 5ht Edition Nids LIke I DID the 4TH edition)


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

2) Get ymgarls then there slightly more expensive and will reach CC
3) I meant if 10 gaunts are taking saves out of 40
5) Get more numbers
6) just cause an armys weak doesn't mean you can't play them.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

aboytervigon said:


> 2) Get ymgarls then there slightly more expensive and will reach CC
> 3) I meant if 10 gaunts are taking saves out of 40
> 5) Get more numbers
> 6) just cause an armys weak doesn't mean you can't play them.


2. Those damn Ymgarls Ive taken them several times, and 5 times, my opponents get right on top of them, boom mishap, 120pts gone.

5. Ive done swarms list, Jet Bikes destroy me, as do those damn 12 shot weapons dark eldar have on those skimmers.

6. Very True, but its not making for a enjoyable fun gaming experience when your at a disadvantage right off the bat.


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## Dagmire (Oct 9, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Once isn't a trend.


you only need to be lucky once.
I smashed mech IG with my SoB the other day, AND NO I DIDN'T HAVE 3 EXORCISTS.

I stilll believe the player makes the army


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

Dagmire said:


> you only need to be lucky once.
> I smashed mech IG with my SoB the other day, AND NO I DIDN'T HAVE 3 EXORCISTS.
> 
> I stilll believe the player makes the army


true, but look at it this way

one takes 2 skilled Marine Marksmen, Give one a pistol and the other and Sniper rifle, you then put then 100 yards apart. Who wins?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Dagmire said:


> you only need to be lucky once.


How is that relevant when we're talking about an army's performance in many, many games?



> I smashed mech IG with my SoB the other day, AND NO I DIDN'T HAVE 3 EXORCISTS.


Cool. Play 99 more games and tell me how many more you win.



> I stilll believe the player makes the army


It does, absolutely. A good player with a mediocre list can beat a bad player with a good list. In fact, it happens all the time. But if someone isn't a really amazing player (yet) and are using a subpar list, they're in for a world of hurt.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

2.Agree with your opponent 3" around the terrain counts as inside it, if he doesn't agree he's being a jerk
5. What 12 shot weapons?


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

aboytervigon said:


> 2.Agree with your opponent 3" around the terrain counts as inside it, if he doesn't agree he's being a jerk
> 5. What 12 shot weapons?


2. they agree that touching terrain counts as being in it, 3" with in it? ive Never been offered or told that was even a rule. 

5. Its on there Transport Skimmers, They get 6 shots per gun on each side, (2 guns)


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

aboytervigon said:


> 2.Agree with your opponent 3" around the terrain counts as inside it, if he doesn't agree he's being a jerk


Uh, what? Wanting to play by the rules is being a jerk? Since when?


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

I count 3" around terrain as being inside it as long as one models actually inside it.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

aboytervigon said:


> I count 3" around terrain as being inside it as long as one models actually inside it.


You mind telling me where you read that rule?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

aboytervigon said:


> I count 3" around terrain as being inside it as long as one models actually inside it.


Fine, but your house rules have no bearing on what other people do in their games and if someone chooses not to want to play by those same rules they're certainly not a jerk. That's like me insisting that as long as my tanks are even 1% obscured they count as in cover.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

aboytervigon said:


> I count 3" around terrain as being inside it as long as one models actually inside it.


thats a pretty big game changer......i dont think anyone I play in tourneys would agree to that


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Didn't read it I just count the boundaries of a building as being 3" which is basically hugging the walls.


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## Ashkore08 (Feb 12, 2011)

NewGuy55 said:


> true, but look at it this way
> 
> one takes 2 skilled Marine Marksmen, Give one a pistol and the other and Sniper rifle, you then put then 100 yards apart. Who wins?


Sorry, but that is a poor analogy. At 100 yards apart, the Pistol wins hands down. Sure, the sniper rifle is PURPOSE built to shoot stuff at range, but with a big sight in your way, and probably a bulky handgrip, the pistol guy will leave you perforated before you have the scope to your eye. Double if hes using a machine pistol.

And i have to say, Newguy is seeming like a troll more and more. Everytime someone offers some advice, he says hes tried it already and it hasn't worked. Seriously? If 10 people give you different sets of advice, im betting at least 2 of them will be good. Granted, i dont play a Tyranid Army (i just have the Dex), but after 1 and a bit years even i could sport a decent win/loss list. If i had the time and money, id even take that challenge.

And i think the guy at this link has the most success with Tyranids i have ever seen:
http://www.synaps3.blogspot.com/


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

aboytervigon said:


> Didn't read it I just count the boundaries of a building as being 3" which is basically hugging the walls.


So you decided to make up your own rules instead of following the rulebook and anyone who doesn't follow your rules is a jerk?


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

Ashkore08 said:


> Sorry, but that is a poor analogy. At 100 yards apart, the Pistol wins hands down. Sure, the sniper rifle is PURPOSE built to shoot stuff at range, but with a big sight in your way, and probably a bulky handgrip, the pistol guy will leave you perforated before you have the scope to your eye. Double if hes using a machine pistol.
> 
> And i have to say, Newguy is seeming like a troll more and more. Everytime someone offers some advice, he says hes tried it already and it hasn't worked. Seriously? If 10 people give you different sets of advice, im betting at least 2 of them will be good. Granted, i dont play a Tyranid Army (i just have the Dex), but after 1 and a bit years even i could sport a decent win/loss list. If i had the time and money, id even take that challenge.


I not Trolling, Ive tried EVERYTHING, No one has given me any new tactics that I already Have not tried. Look at my PathFinder Thread, no good advice. Sorry about the analogy bad choice on my side.

thats how a debate works, jumping on the troll band wagon means you have nothing to add.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

I thought he was playing with a friend forgot about the tournament thing but you still love me im adorable.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

NewGuy55 said:


> I not Trolling, Ive tried EVERYTHING, No one has given me any new tactics that I already Have not tried. Look at my PathFinder Thread, no good advice. Sorry about the analogy bad choice on my side.


So you've tried my suggestion of playing at 1,750 points? 'Cause I haven't seen you respond to one of my posts in this thread. I'm starting to think that you don't like me.


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## ItsPug (Apr 5, 2009)

NewGuy55 said:


> one takes 2 skilled Marine Marksmen, Give one a pistol and the other and Sniper rifle, you then put then 100 yards apart. Who wins?


Obviously the one with a sniper rifle, but that is a really bad matchup. Put them in a built up environment such as a house with limited LOS and fields of fire and who wins?

I play mech guard and haven't yet beaten tyranids at a tournament, and I'm a pretty good player (IMHO :laugh. You are gonna have good and bad matchups based on points values, armies your facing, terrain and even missions/deployments.

Possibly the reason that people keep suggesting you're a bad player is you seem to be having trouble killing units that aren't all that great, Pathfinders? Really? they fold like a cheap suit once you get anything near them and with Run moves you should be able to get a unit over to them by turn 2/3 if you really have to, out-flanking/infiltrating units excepted.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> So you've tried my suggestion of playing at 1,750 points? 'Cause I haven't seen you respond to one of my posts in this thread. I'm starting to think that you don't like me.


LOL, KNow I appreciate you cause its seems you can understand where Im coming from, and I thank you for that, but like my Article itself I mention I've played games from 500pts to 3,000pts. When I play larger games Yes i have more Units like gaunts or Fexes, but know I have to worry about 9 walkers instead of 3, 10 lascannons instead of 6, 20 pathfinders instead of 10, and its seems i have no counter for some of thing armies I play against. I would be more than happy to have someone like oddjob list a army and I would try it out but When someone does this I usally ask "well this list looks good but how do you deal with (insert Unit Hear)? And they never have a answer for me. I still dont have a answer for my Pathfinders Thread.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> So you've tried my suggestion of playing at 1,750 points? 'Cause I haven't seen you respond to one of my posts in this thread. I'm starting to think that you don't like me.


I'm not sure he actually wants advice, nor capable of taking it even if you do give him it. 

10 Pathfinders is not a game breaker.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

ItsPug said:


> Obviously the one with a sniper rifle, but that is a really bad matchup. Put them in a built up environment such as a house with limited LOS and fields of fire and who wins?
> 
> I play mech guard and haven't yet beaten tyranids at a tournament, and I'm a pretty good player (IMHO :laugh. You are gonna have good and bad matchups based on points values, armies your facing, terrain and even missions/deployments.
> 
> Possibly the reason that people keep suggesting you're a bad player is you seem to be having trouble killing units that aren't all that great, Pathfinders? Really? they fold like a cheap suit once you get anything near them and with Run moves you should be able to get a unit over to them by turn 2/3 if you really have to, out-flanking/infiltrating units excepted.


like I said I cant get to them, my opponents treat them like bait to fish and the worse part is I cant ignore them without being punished


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## Dagmire (Oct 9, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> How is that relevant when we're talking about an army's performance in many, many games?
> 
> Cool. Play 99 more games and tell me how many more you win.
> 
> It does, absolutely. A good player with a mediocre list can beat a bad player with a good list. In fact, it happens all the time. But if someone isn't a really amazing player (yet) and are using a subpar list, they're in for a world of hurt.


1: its relevent when someone blames a codex and not themselves for poor performance

2: 99 more games in which I am a better player will be great for my win.loss ratio

3:there is a world of difference between subpar and balanced (see poor)

My point is that nids are a valied codex. the guy that came 4th at adpticon must have won more the 1 game to get his possition. SoB are underpowered and outdated yet you dont hear me crying. If anything its masde me a better player.


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## ItsPug (Apr 5, 2009)

NewGuy55 said:


> 5. Its on there Transport Skimmers, They get 6 shots per gun on each side, (2 guns)


Yeah, and against your swarm units they wound on a 4+, so its like being str3, against your big bugs you get 3+ armour saves so...

6 kills against gaunts if in the open, 3 if not and 2 wounds against a tervigon? And they are on open topped AV10 skimmers, so even your str 4 shots can kill them.



NewGuy55 said:


> like I said I cant get to them, my opponents treat them like bait to fish and the worse part is I cant ignore them without being punished


So you can't seem to shoot anything, can't get into close combat with anything, and 10 pathfinders are too causing too much damage for you to ignore?

To me that doesn't seem to be a problem with the 'dex, more either the list your using or the way you're using it.


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## Ashkore08 (Feb 12, 2011)

I just checked your pathfinders thread: there are exactly 3 answers. Maybe less than what you were hoping for, but more than "no answers".
too bad tyrannofex needs to be kitbashed, plonking a few rupture cannon shots on those pathfinders will ruin their day easily.
Mawloc, shadow in the deep thing where he can eat stuff where he deepstrikes.
Biovore spore mine launcher...

Can someone tell us how feasible it is for 10 Eldar Pathfinders to Gib a MC every turn?

On a side note, i noticed how many threads youve started that claim tyranids suck. nine.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

ItsPug said:


> Yeah, and against your swarm units they wound on a 4+, so its like being str3, against your big bugs you get 3+ armour saves so...
> 
> 6 kills against gaunts if in the open, 3 if not and 2 wounds against a tervigon? And they are on open topped AV10 skimmers, so even your str 4 shots can kill them.
> 
> ...


Why would I waste 2-4 shots to Shoot something that gets a 2+ cover save? 

the s3 weapons are poison so they get to reroll failed wounds. 

again dont judge and tell me Im playing my army wrong when you Dont PLAY tyranids. Thank you

I actually have taken advice from Aboutterivgon. 

and thank you for agreeing with me BTW Yes Nids are bad and Shooting (cept Hive Guard) and have crappy armor and Toughness to survive long enough to get in CC. I have to treat units on the board with great care a precision.

I can list units I have trouble with but the problem is the list is so damn long, and that tells me something. The Nids are very hard to play.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

Ashkore08 said:


> On a side note, i noticed how many threads youve started that claim tyranids suck. nine.


Yes those post were Rage Troll, I actually backed up my option in this thread buddy. Please Leave cause you not Helping nor do you understand my army.


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## ItsPug (Apr 5, 2009)

NewGuy55 said:


> Why would I waste 2-4 shots to Shoot something that gets a 2+ cover save?
> 
> the s3 weapons are poison so they get to reroll failed wounds.
> 
> again dont judge and tell me Im playing my army wrong when you Dont PLAY tyranids. Thank you


It might help if you learned the rules. poison only gets a re-roll if the weapon strength is equal to or greater then the toughness of the unit. Splinter cannons have no strength, hence no re-rolls.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

What advice was it and its A boy tervigon= aboytervigon.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Dagmire said:


> 1: its relevent when someone blames a codex and not themselves for poor performance


If you say so. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just unable to wrap my head around your viewpoint.



> 2: 99 more games in which I am a better player will be great for my win.loss ratio


If you're a better player than all of the people that you play regularly... then yeah. That has little to do with an army and an awful lot to do with player skill.



> My point is that nids are a valied codex. the guy that came 4th at adpticon must have won more the 1 game to get his possition. SoB are underpowered and outdated yet you dont hear me crying. If anything its masde me a better player.


Yeah, Hulksmash is a great player, I doubt you could find anyone who would disagree with that notion. He did well because he's more talented than most of the people he played against, it had very little to do with his Codex.

Sisters are one 3rd edition book that made the transition to 5th with relative smoothness. Compared to Necrons and Daemonhunters the Witch Hunters have nothing to complain about (Dark Eldar managed pretty well too). But yeah, I don't think many people would say that Sisters are on par with the newest books in the game.

I guess my point is that people that do well with outdated/bad books do so because they're better at the game than their opponents, not because the book is good/balanced.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

Ashkore08 said:


> I just checked your pathfinders thread: there are exactly 3 answers. Maybe less than what you were hoping for, but more than "no answers".
> too bad tyrannofex needs to be kitbashed, plonking a few rupture cannon shots on those pathfinders will ruin their day easily.
> Mawloc, shadow in the deep thing where he can eat stuff where he deepstrikes.
> Biovore spore mine launcher...
> ...


Umm 2 S10 shot on BS3 against a units with a 2+ cover save?
The FAQ solved the template with marker problem, but what if they on elevated terrain? Do they even get Hit? or do you just move the marker to avoid Impassable terrain?

Biovore work if they hit, can anyone tell me the odds of a bulleye? I Thinks its 40% but i could be wrong.


Okay PathFinder Killing MCs in 1 turn Ready....
Turn 1 I go first Eladr player infilrates Pathfinder wear they'll do the most damage, I move foward trying to get my MC 50% obscured, but i cant cause the model is HUGE.

Turn 1 Eldars shoot phase, Exarc? (sp) allows reroll hits and wound on pathfinders, 9 hits, 8 wound 5 rending 3 3+ saves, Hive Tyrant dead, Carinfex dead, 1 failed save and Terivgon dead, Trygon dead, Tyrannfex dead. AND THATS JUST PATHFINDERS SHOOTING.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

ItsPug said:


> It might help if you learned the rules. poison only gets a re-roll if the weapon strength is equal to or greater then the toughness of the unit. Splinter cannons have no strength, hence no re-rolls.


I dont know dark eldar rules so If My opponents say re rolls I usually take his word for it, When your playing Timed matches and your already losing, (points due to swarms) I assume the person know how to play there army I was under the impression they were s3 weapons. 

So thats my own dumb fault. but now I know. Thanks.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

NewGuy55 said:


> Turn 1 Eldars shoot phase, Exarc? (sp) allows reroll hits and wound on pathfinders, 9 hits, 8 wound 5 rending 3 3+ saves, Hive Tyrant dead, Carinfex dead, 1 failed save and Terivgon dead, Trygon dead, Tyrannfex dead. AND THATS JUST PATHFINDERS SHOOTING.


You mean a Farseer, who's casting both Guide on the Pathfinders and Doom on your Monstrous Creature, not an Exarch. I can actually see Pathfinders giving your big guys a hard time, but you _should_ be able to get cover unless your tables don't have enough larger terrain pieces in which case you're in big trouble. One thing you can try is taking Venomthropes who are usually underrated because Tyranids typically need to burn their Elite slots on Hive Guard.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

aboytervigon said:


> What advice was it and its A boy tervigon= aboytervigon.


Your List you gave me.

IM gonna try it.

Thanks


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## ItsPug (Apr 5, 2009)

NewGuy55 said:


> Biovore work if they hit, can anyone tell me the odds of a bulleye? I Thinks its 40% but i could be wrong.


There's a 33% basic chance of getting dead on + you can still scatter and hit if you can draw LOS - its about 50% ish



NewGuy55 said:


> Okay PathFinder Killing MCs in 1 turn Ready....
> Turn 1 I go first Eladr player infilrates Pathfinder wear they'll do the most damage, I move foward trying to get my MC 50% obscured, but i cant cause the model is HUGE.
> 
> Turn 1 Eldars shoot phase, Exarc? (sp) allows reroll hits and wound on pathfinders, 9 hits, 8 wound 5 rending 3 3+ saves, Hive Tyrant dead, Carinfex dead, 1 failed save and Terivgon dead, Trygon dead, Tyrannfex dead. AND THATS JUST PATHFINDERS SHOOTING.


I think you mean Farseer? Theres no exarch in a pathfinder squad?

doom allows re-rolls of failed wounds against a specified unit (has 24" range), guide has a 6" range and allows missed shots to be re-rolled. so if he uses both farseer powers on the one unit he gets

10 shots 8.6 hits, 6.4 wounds of which 2 rend. you fail maybe 1 other save. so 3 wounds caused by at least 360 points of models. Wow, thats absolutely deadly.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> You mean a Farseer, who's casting both Guide on the Pathfinders and Doom on your Monstrous Creature, not an Exarch. I can actually see Pathfinders giving your big guys a hard time, but you _should_ be able to get cover unless your tables don't have enough larger terrain pieces in which case you're in big trouble. One thing you can try is taking Venomthropes who are usually underrated because Tyranids typically need to burn their Elite slots on Hive Guard.


That has helped, my last game I played (1,500pts) I brought in 2 squads of 2 Venomthropes, that kept my alive for till turn 3. my lis tis below so people can judge it.  I appreciate all the advice supporters have given me. 

Hq
Warrior Prime- Pair of Bonessword

Terivgon-Catalyst, Regen, Toxin sacs


Troops
30 hormagaunts - Toxin Sac
16- Termagaunts - Toxin sacs
16- Termagauints- Devours-toxin sacs- Spor Pod
9- Ripper Swarms


Elites
3x Hive guard
2x Venomthropes
2x Venomthropes

Heavy
x3 Biovores


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

OI dats my list I made to have fun I seriously doubt it will win you a game.


Edit not the one above me

about your list the prime is only useful as 
A) a cheap hq so you can splurge on other stuff
B)or a goodway to make seriously hurting warriors
also Toxin sacs on termagants are a waste when you have a tervigon with them one last thing why ripper swarms? with my advice you save about 216 points.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

ItsPug said:


> 10 shots 8.6 hits, 6.4 wounds of which 2 rend. you fail maybe 1 other save. so 3 wounds caused by at least 360 points of models. Wow, thats absolutely deadly.


They Rend on 5 and 6.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

aboytervigon said:


> OI dats my list I made to have fun I seriously doubt it will win you a game.
> 
> 
> Edit not the one above me


huh, I thought it was a competitive list? Can you share one of those?


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## ItsPug (Apr 5, 2009)

NewGuy55 said:


> Hq
> Warrior Prime- Pair of Bonessword
> 
> Terivgon-Catalyst, Regen, Toxin sacs Make this a troops choice, you're not losing anything and you get a scoring monstrous creature
> ...


You've got no ranged firepower to even try to stun a couple of vehicles and then no MCs to penetrate them when you get there. you're reliant on a squad of hiveguard to do your anti-tank and its not gonna cut it, at 1500 points your looking at probably at least 6 vehicles, possibly more. you've got far too many points wasted on upgrades and not enough killing power against vehicles.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

NewGuy55 said:


> They Rend on 5 and 6.


Actually it's even better. On a roll to hit of 5 and 6 there shots now become ap1. Then on the roll to wound, any roll of 6 also rends, mean they get two rolls to ignore armour.


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## ItsPug (Apr 5, 2009)

NewGuy55 said:


> They Rend on 5 and 6.


Sorry, so 4 rends, and odds are you save the two that allow you a save, even so you've paid 160 points for a tervigon and its taken 2 units at *at least* 360 points to cause 4, possibly 5 wounds, without factoring in cover or FNP if one of the non-rending shots gets through.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

aboytervigon said:


> OI dats my list I made to have fun I seriously doubt it will win you a game.
> 
> 
> Edit not the one above me
> ...


The Rippers Swarn get a 2+ cover when in cover a 3+ cover Save When in the open when the Spore Cloud. Thats why I tried them this game.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

ItsPug said:


> Sorry, so 4 rends, and odds are you save the two that allow you a save, even so you've paid 160 points for a tervigon and its taken 2 units at *at least* 360 points to cause 4, possibly 5 wounds.


Thats still and Hive tyrant or Canifex down in one turn.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

ItsPug said:


> You've got no ranged firepower to even try to stun a couple of vehicles and then no MCs to penetrate them when you get there. you're reliant on a squad of hiveguard to do your anti-tank and its not gonna cut it, at 1500 points your looking at probably at least 6 vehicles, possibly more. you've got far too many points wasted on upgrades and not enough killing power against vehicles.


Thanks for the list adivce. But I need the biovore to Deal with Jetbikes and Pathfinders and Big squads of Orc Boyz, 

as for the MCs Advice I've never been able to get near anything with a armor value, Im gunned down before I can assault it. 

I played against Eldar He took

10 pathfinders

2 Big squads of (9 each I think?) Jetbikes
6 Walkers with Scatter lasers

3 jet bikes with Bright lances.

lol and 2 5 man squads of Dire Avengers and a Farseeer


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Alright, for the record, 1,500 is a stupid points level and anyone that says otherwise is a poopy head.

I just sat down and fiddled with a Tyranids list for about 20 minutes and got this:

HQ
Tyranid Prime
Regeneration
Pts: 90

TROOPS
10 Termagants
Pts: 50

10 Termagants
Pts: 50

6 Genestealers
Toxin sacs
Broodlord
Scything talons
Pts: 150

6 Genestealers
Toxin sacs
Broodlord
Scything talons
Pts: 150

Tervigon
Cluster Spines
Pts: 160

Tervigon
Cluster Spines
Pts: 160

ELITES

3 Hive Guard
Pts: 150

3 Hive Guard
Pts: 150

2 Venomthropes
Pts: 110

FAST ATTACK

10 Gargoyles
Pts: 60

4 Shrikes
Boneswords and Lashwhips
Pts: 220

Total: 1,500/1,500

Not perfect by any means as I'm not sure the Venomthropes are necessary, but it's the best I can do in a few minutes. Give it a spin.



> Thanks for the list adivce. But I need the biovore to Deal with Jetbikes and Pathfinders and Big squads of Orc Boyz


Wait, what the hell? Why are you firing biovores at Jetbikes?


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Actually rippers only have 4+ in the spore cloud.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Alright, for the record, 1,500 is a stupid points level and anyone that says otherwise is a poopy head.
> 
> I just sat down and fiddled with a Tyranids list for about 20 minutes and got this:
> 
> ...


awww...but i was going to play CSM tomorrow lol I give it a shot. Should I Outflak with the Stealer? and why are the termagaunts 10pts each?


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## ItsPug (Apr 5, 2009)

NewGuy55 said:


> The Rippers Swarn get a 2+ cover when in cover a 3+ cover Save When in the open when the Spore Cloud. Thats why I tried them this game.


But do they actually kill anything? because they can't score and can't give cover to your MC's so what are you using them for?



NewGuy55 said:


> Thats still and Hive tyrant or Canifex down in one turn.


Yeah, if you haven't got cover you've lost a carnifex or hive tyrant, if it hasn't got guard, but whats the rest of your army doing at this point? your little guys should be 7-12" closer and ready for a possible charge next turn. If you've used onslaught you haven't even wasted the squads firepower by running.

He's used a quarter of his army to take out slightly more than a tenth of your army, if he wants to fire the squad he has to remain stationary and the farseer is easy to torrent down if he isn't a member of the squad, and if he is once you break them he's not gonna be able to use psychic powers.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

I would replace shrikes with trygon and adrenal glands why does no one like them on this thread?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

NewGuy55 said:


> awww...but i was going to play CSM tomorrow lol I give it a shot. Should I Outflak with the Stealer? and why are the termagaunts 10pts each?


Decide to outflank based on the situation. I wouldn't just blindly do it every game, no. And the Termagants aren't 10 points each, I listed units of 10 Termagants for a total of 50 points.



aboytervigon said:


> I would replace shrikes with trygon and adrenal glands why does no one like them on this thread?


In short? Because they're bad. Shrikes are awesome because you can use the Gargs to give them cover and then they can make a bloody mess of things in close combat. Trygons are huge, expensive and get shot to pieces before they charge.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Alright, for the record, 1,500 is a stupid points level and anyone that says otherwise is a poopy head.


:goodpost: Listen to Katie she knows her stuff.

I know next to nothing about Nids but katies list for 1500 made me moist, niceguys list didnt however


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## ItsPug (Apr 5, 2009)

NewGuy55 said:


> Thanks for the list adivce. But I need the biovore to Deal with Jetbikes and Pathfinders and Big squads of Orc Boyz,
> 
> as for the MCs Advice I've never been able to get near anything with a armor value, Im gunned down before I can assault it.
> 
> ...


No you don't use biovores for that, you deal with big squads of ork boys by hitting them hard in CC and watching them take a load of fearless wounds. You have loads of anti-infantry built in, you don't need more.

Against that eldar list I bring it up as 1461 without upgrades, so probably no shuriken cannons on the bikes, so kill the farseer or the pathfinders first and then the only thing thats gonna really worry the MC's are the lances (on BS3 platforms) you'll probably lose a wound or two a turn to those.

You should be aiming for target saturation, he can only kill one MC a turn if he concentrates all his anti-tank on it. If you have 2 you'll be able to keep one past the first turn or two, and hopefully by then you'll have taken out the biggest threats to them.

One thing I will point out is that the eldar player has almost no unit upgrades, no wasted points, your list had a lot, that may be why you seem to be struggling so much. Remember, boys before toys!


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Wait, what the hell? Why are you firing biovores at Jetbikes?


cause there super mobile, 48' range and pinning help against them.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

NewGuy55 said:


> cause there super mobile, 48' range and pinning help against them.


Okay, but even with a large template you're probably not hitting tons of models... I don't think Biovores are the unit you need to deal with Jetbikes. I think you'd be better off just chasing them down with your own fast units or shooting the crap out of them. How often do you get kills with the biovores against jetbikes?


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

ItsPug said:


> No you don't use biovores for that, you deal with big squads of ork boys by hitting them hard in CC and watching them take a load of fearless wounds. You have loads of anti-infantry built in, you don't need more.
> 
> Against that eldar list I bring it up as 1461 without upgrades, so probably no shuriken cannons on the bikes, so kill the farseer or the pathfinders first and then the only thing thats gonna really worry the MC's are the lances (on BS3 platforms) you'll probably lose a wound or two a turn to those.
> 
> ...


how would i deal with the jet bikes?


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I#m not a huge fan of Katies list, Shirkes are poor and you need more than 10 Gargoyles, Stealer broods are bit tiny as well but it should do ok against those eldar.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Aramoro said:


> I#m not a huge fan of Katies list, Shirkes are poor and you need more than 10 Gargoyles, Stealer broods are bit tiny as well but it should do ok against those eldar.


What would you suggest then? As a full list, I mean.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Okay, but even with a large template you're probably not hitting tons of models... I don't think Biovores are the unit you need to deal with Jetbikes. I think you'd be better off just chasing them down with your own fast units or shooting the crap out of them. How often do you get kills with the biovores against jetbikes?


they run around board picking off whats not in cover, they run circles around me  its usually how my Genestealers die.
and when i do get close they just tubo boost away.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

Another Game I played was 1,000pts 

Eldar 

He took

3 walkers Scatter lasers
9 jet bikes (with hQ and Cannon?)
3 Jet bikes with Bright lances
1 Wraithlord, with a brightlance
1 squad of Dire avengers with a farseerer
1 5 man squad of Dire avengers?

I took

Prime- Pair boneswords
Tervigon-Catalsyt, Regen
30- Hormagaunts -Toxin sacs
16 termagiunts 
3 hive gaurd
2 hive gaurd
3 biovores


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> What would you suggest then? As a full list, I mean.


That guy hasnt been much help, He just says Im a scrub and my army is a GREat ONe Im just playing it wrong.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

NewGuy55 said:


> That guy hasnt been much help, He just says Im a scrub and my army is a GREat ONe Im just playing it wrong.


Well, I don't doubt that there are things you can do to improve your chances, but I don't care what anyone says, Tyranids don't measure up to other 5th edition books. That doesn't mean auto-losses in all games or anything like that, it just means it's an uphill struggle. You _can_ still do well, if you keep at it.


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## NewGuy55 (Jul 1, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Well, I don't doubt that there are things you can do to improve your chances, but I don't care what anyone says, Tyranids don't measure up to other 5th edition books. That doesn't mean auto-losses in all games or anything like that, it just means it's an uphill struggle. You _can_ still do well, if you keep at it.


 Finally someone who understands, Thanks for that.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

we may not be the best but which over army can take monstrous creatures as troops?


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

it seems like you play against eldar quite often.

have you thought about using ravenors? i mean move 6" run and a 12" assault. thats potentially a 19-24" assault on turn 1 or two.

i dont claim to be amazing with nids since i barely have 400 points but the only trouble ive been having is learning how to stay patient - knowing when to run/shoot/hide. all this with warriors, a prime, some gants and ravenors.


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## Ashkore08 (Feb 12, 2011)

Since his Farseer is beefing up those damn pathfinders, try spore podding zoans near them, and shadow in the warp that bitch. Sure, it wont work every time, but its at least something.

Maybe a harpy and some gargoyles if your opponent is playing keep away. Fast flyers are a must for facing other fast armies.
Mawloc, terror from the deep. That is all. 
Or you can try and parasite of mortrex his squad leaders. that would be fun as hell.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

I read the first four pages and then realized that the next fifteen were going to be *exactly the same*.

I came out of stasis for THIS?

Newguy, seriously. I play Necrons. NECRONS. You think YOU got shafted? 

But guess what? I still win with them. I cant provide an accurate depiction of my win/tie/lose ration but I can say I win as much as I lose, if not more often. You know how I retained a good winning ability despite using what is arguably one of the weakest armies in 5th?

I had to unlearn 4th. No longer could I blow up a Land Raider with a single shot from a Warrior- Now I have to kill them with a hail of glances, if they even get that close. Better bet is to use lords for that task now, or Heavy Destroyers, something that was never really necessary in any list. No longer can I spam a hundred warriors onto the table and expect them to just roll over the enemy, now I need to mix it up. I can still drop three monoliths on the table wherever I like though, thats nice.

My point is, I almost shelved my Necrons when 5th came out because I was frustrated my Warriors couldn't take out armor, my shit was getting shot up left and right, and I was being outmaneuvered by the now much more appealing transport lists. Then I adapted. I found that I could use Destroyer Lords or Heavy Destroyers to assassinate enemy HQs and Tanks, I found that walking my warriors on from table edge was the best tactic I had for keeping them alive, and that they couldnt really DO anything early in the game anyway so why not keep them back, and that Destroyers move faster than and can easily destroy most transports. My army lists evolved and changed, and now despite the fact that I still dont have transports and my guns are no longer the fear-inspiring tank poppers they once were I can still force the enemy to fight on my terms and win, even though I play Necrons.

Your army has changed. Now you must change with it.


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

Yeah, now put a load of cover inbetween the Sniper and the Pistol carrier.
Have the pistol carrier run like fuck from one piece of cover to the next, not presenting a shot of any kind to the Sniper.
Then, when you're close enough, run up to the Sniper and smash his fucking brains out with the butt of the pistol...


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## maomolin (May 4, 2008)

His opponent isn't running much mech, Doom of Malan'tai screams at me in this list.

Devil(Dakka)gants deal with jetbikers (any kind of infantry) fairly well, in MY experience.

Seer Counsel is hard for nids to deal with, one of the best counters I have in my all-comers list is t-fexes. Wounding on 2+ sucks, but they aren't ignoring your 2+ armor save. Essentially you tie up a unit that is used to commonly tie up other units. This is also good against orks, as long as you can hold long enough for help to arrive (typically with warriors or a trygon).

Gargolyes CAN screen a tyrant or a trygon. A harpy (TL-HVC, Cluster Spines) went a long ways for me at 1500 and beyond.

Certain armies play better at different point values. I have always had trouble against Eldar at 1k, and much, much less so at 1.5k.

Pulling away from double Tervigons is a plus, it becomes too many points wrapped up in defensive abilities (while some is nice, you can get caught up paying too much [50 in trash gants to unlock the nearly 200pt terivigon twice over is a huge chunk of 1750 and below).

The codex certainly isn't as strong as Cruddace's I.G. codex, as the number of viable unit choices is fewer, but you can win with it. No point arguing that statement if it is still placing in the upper ranks when Tau, Necrons, Sisters (to a point), BT, DA, Dark Eldar, and to lesser extents Chaos Demons/Marines and Eldar haven't made the appearances as often or at all in quite a while.


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

Okay, I'll play.

I've got roughly 7,000 points of Bugs now. I started with Nidzilla in 4th thanks to Auxellion's YouTube vids, and now in 5th with a new book, I play a hybrid army.

Are Tyranids "competitive"?

Yes, they took 4th at Adepticon, 1st at the Millenium Games Invitational, 2nd at Da Boyz GT, and I'm sure there's a lot more I'm missing from this year's tournaments alone. Hell, I placed 37th out of 70 in a GT in February that included 6 Wrecking Crew members and TONS of hardcore competition, and there were two Tyranid players that placed higher than me. Sure, getting somewhere in the middle of the pack is not placing 1st, but I'm proud of my results considering I played the 1st Overall guy in round 2 and a couple of hard-core armies that are strong against bugs.

My 1,850 pt list:

HQ
The Swarmlord
2x Tyrant Guard (Lash Whips)

ELITES
2x Zoanthropes
3x Hive Guard
3x Hive Guard

TROOPS
15x Termagaunts
Tervigon (Scything Talons, Cluster Spines, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Catalyst)
20x Hormagaunts (Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs)
10x Genestealers (Toxin Sacs, one is a Broodlord)

FAST
17x Gargoyles (Toxin Sacs)

HEAVY
Trygon (Adrenal Glands)

I made this list to be a sort of "elite hunter" list, as in it can deal with MEQ quite easily. I trash Marines of all flavors (naughty and nice) pretty regularly, but Emo Space Elves (Dark Eldar), Hippy Space Elves (Eldar), IG, and Tau give me trouble almost always. A note, with this list I have TABLED an 1850 point version of Leafblower IG. Yes, it really happened, and no, my opponent was not a doofus. I simply was able to pop certain tanks and bait him out of others, and then I assaulted with what I could. Again, generalship goes a _long_ way with this army.

Are Tyranids tough as hell to play correctly?

Now in 5th with this new codex, yes they are. No more "easy mode" with 6 dakka-fexes and 2 dakka-walkrants. Nid lists now require thought, planning, and decent generalship (a.k.a. ability to execute). Sure there are some units that will help greatly in the current meta, but no single unit in the codex is a "must-use" in order to win.

That being said, my biggest gripe with the Tyranid codex is that the only things that have Assault Grenades are the Lictor (which is mostly useless), the Parasite of Mortrex (which is mostly useless), and Carnifexes (which at double their previous base cost are utterly useless). We can't even spend points to get Assault Grenades. YAY! :suicide:

As for casual play, I have an 80% win ratio at my LGS. They are a TON of fun when you're not focused on maximum efficiency, and they really do have tons of different army builds.

My personal beliefs are that the current dex works best with a multi-faceted army. So, I think you should have a decent mix of walking units, flying units, deep-striking units, and outflanking units. Use these awesome deployment/movement combinations together to confuse and distract your opponent. My Hive Fleet's name is Hydrus, (from Hydra, a multi-headed dragon-like creature), representing how you need to combine different aspects of this codex to launch a coordinated attack. Okay, I may have over-thought it, but it's still true.



NewGuy55 said:


> I played against Eldar He took
> 
> 10 pathfinders
> 
> ...


Well, his first mistake is not taking Wave Serpents against you. I know they are SUPER EXPENSIVE for Eldar and at 1,000 points that is more pronounced, but there is little Tyranids can do against AV12 fast skimmers except spray and pray with Hive Guard IF they're in range. But I digress...

Against the pathfinders (as several have already said), use Ymgarl Genestealers, regular Genestealers (getting cover where possible and Feel No Pain from a Tervigon), and even the Doom of Malantai. Heck, even Termagaunts will work wonders on that unit in assault if they can get there.

As for the walkers with Scatter Lasers, again, use Genestealers. Seriously, the guy from the synaps3 blog knows his shit, and he swears by them.

Now, about those two units of nine Jetbikes, Gargoyles. You'll hear people say "Gargoyles are useless" but that's just because they haven't figured out how to use them yet. I can't tell you how much fun they are, and how many times they have won me games. I have assaulted a Bloodthirster from Codex: Chaos Daemons with them, and picked it up in two assault phases! Don't underestimate them!

Well, I hope my ramblings will help, and feel free to ask questions! Some of us are actually here to help!



TL;DR - Tyranids are competitive but hard, they really need Assault Grenades, and Genestealers should solve all of your problems. :victory:


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

For what little it's worth, my take on 5th edition nids:

1. I've done reasonably well with the nids over the past year or so, but my army list ended up very different from my initial ideas. Tyranids are just different. 

2. I still regularly lose with the 'killer list' against chumps or terrible armies when I'm not focused. It only takes your opponent to get lucky once to put you in a bad place. This is part of building in a lot of sneaky tricks to take on the big boys- you really have to have your game face on at all times. Armies that spam tervigons, hive guard and t-fexs are about getting you the easy (brainless) wins but fall down against the top builds.

3. The nids have some terribly difficult matchups- rocket wolves, fancy bloodangels and anything with multiple land raiders. They also seem to have a complete hard counter in venom spam. Grey Knights appear to be another top trump army on paper, but I've yet to have much practice against them. However, with enough stealers you have a decent shot against mech guard, which is nice. Getting a well rounded TAC list out of the nid codex is very tricky.

4. They make up for this by being relatively unknown, or at least not generally considered in your opponents list design. This is a reason why I like Ymagarls- they appear much scarier than they actually are to the inexperienced.

5. The only units I havn't considered for a competative list have been rippers and pyrovores, and my finalised army has a lot of different unit types in it. The book appears to have pretty good internal balance. 

6. If victory points are used as a tournament decider (as they were at the UKIGT) you aren't going to do well by that metric. Nids rely on sacrificing units to get the overall win, and generally lack the range/speed required to get a wipeout.

So, in summary, the tyranid codex relies on you being on your game at all times. You have to know how you want the game to pan out before it begins which is generally difficult and requires a lot of exerience. I could pick up wolves or IG tomorrow and daydream my way through 90% of my games, but with Tyranids I feel that all of my wins are earned. That is more than likely the sign of a sub-par codex relative to the rest of the 5th ed offerings. 

There are also a single hard counter, which I havn't been able to think my way round (venom spam). 

Just for reference that makes fellas like Hulksmash and myself who manage to do well with tyranids complete genii :grin:
(yes, I did have to look that collective noun up).

p.s. How the living feth did this thread get to 19 pages?!?!
p.p.s. This forum in general is rife with those who state platitudes about competativeness without actually having a scooby. If you aren't threatening the podium in major tournaments feel free to lurk more.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> What would you suggest then? As a full list, I mean.


I'll do some tinkering if you really care, just im my expereince units that small really suffer early, especially against the kind of ranged firepower NewGuy is up against. Big Gargoyle broods kinda 16+ seem to do really well though. I've never seen someone use Broodlord before, could be an interesting experiement in the samll broods you have them in. Thinking about the Shrikes again they may not be that bad in this circumstance, not a huge amount of S8 being thrown around, not even stuff which negates their save. 



NewGuy55 said:


> That guy hasnt been much help, He just says Im a scrub and my army is a GREat ONe Im just playing it wrong.


I've read a bunch of your posts and you're often given some really decent advice, same advice you've been given here by Katie many times before. You always instantly throw is back and say it doesn't work, that we just don't know what we're talking about or that you've tried and failed with it. I'm happy to try and help people who want help, but you don't seem to want help so I am not.



Katie Drake said:


> Well, I don't doubt that there are things you can do to improve your chances, but I don't care what anyone says, Tyranids don't measure up to other 5th edition books. That doesn't mean auto-losses in all games or anything like that, it just means it's an uphill struggle. You can still do well, if you keep at it.


I don't think anyone is questioning that Nids are in general weaker than Space Wolves, Blood Angels and as OddJob pointed out your Venom Spam lists. But you still can win you just have to try real hard. It's not as if he's getting torn up by Space Wolves though, hes getting torn up by Foot Eldar.


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## MidnightKid333 (Feb 2, 2011)

i can see genestealers being seen as a throwaway unit, but they do great en masse. 10 genestealers alone in a non genestealer army will die no problem, but 40 or so, outflanking, with the added help from the swarmlord will be a pain for the enemy. 

btw everyone is too used to having the armies play themselves. nidz players have to really think about their next move, and have it executed perfectly, which is entirely possible if you make the right decisions.

Nidz just require serious attention to win, while all these other new cheesy armies like dark eldar, space wolves, blood angels and especially gay knights just play themselves on the table. they essentially take care of themselves, which 40k players are too accustomed to doing now.


btw the swarmlord doesnt need an all around invuln save. tyrant guard do just as well, if not better, and if youre taking a swarmlord, its a no brainer to take guard.


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## Luisjoey (Dec 3, 2010)

ORLY? 

I have won the last two annual tournaments in my country, playing tyranids; we have the complete range of armies (including blood angels, eldar, orks, imperial guard) and in both tournaments the first places where tyranids players, with my 5th edition tyranid army i have invictus and think twice to use them against most opponents in "friendly" games. 

You can´t play nid for what they lack if not for what they have...

Lots of monstruous creatures, troops that can field several punch in enemies faces, etc. 

Even old carnifex nidzilla armies past away, trygon armies goes up! they are great at breaking vehicles and heavy armoured troops. 

The best unit for me (and my favorite) are the Genestealers, nowdays troops, so you could field 3 or 4 units to mess with your opponent mind! specially with the outflanking rules and a brood lord with each one. 

The hive guard are great, don´t abuse on quantity but they could tear down most vehicles without even seen it. 

Lictors (saddly cuz i love the miniature and have 3) are worthless because they cant appear and attack as before, dont use them. 

Tervigon is great for controlling and synapse, put it to breed to control objetives, nowdays tyranids could play to control objectives. 

The nids designer, something Cruddace deserve great pain for not developing more the army with better rules, but still is competitive, but depends more on how you use them in battle.


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

The only comment I will make with regard to the Swarmlord is that it's been mentioned he loses a MC each turn. For the cost of the SL and 2 Guard, he could take 2 normal Tyrants and still have 60pts left for kitting them out. If the problem lies with one big target being taken out quickly, go with multiple targets instead. :wink:


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

SilverTabby said:


> The only comment I will make with regard to the Swarmlord is that it's been mentioned he loses a MC each turn. For the cost of the SL and 2 Guard, he could take 2 normal Tyrants and still have 60pts left for kitting them out. If the problem lies with one big target being taken out quickly, go with multiple targets instead. :wink:



--edited by me--
Sorry, my previous post was a bit over the top.

My point: Swarmlord + Tyrant Guard = good. No need for "two tyrants" instead of the Swarmlord & Tyrant Guard. Him and his buds perform a specific role very well. Two Tyrants get shot in the teeth very easily. Simple.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Rage much? :laugh:


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

Yes. I'm angry. Always lol.

My point is that the Swarmlord + Tyrant Guard = good. I admittedly went overboard so I am going to (or already have, depending on when you read this post) edit my post.

Sorry for the rage. :blush:


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I thought it was funny. I only run Swarmy in really big games. He is good, but he really needs to earn his keep. I generally run a basic HT and use him as fire support. Giving him guns subtracts nothing from his CC ability and makes him infinitely more versatile, something Swarmy cannot do.


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

Meh. Rude, unnecessary anger isn't really funny if it's serious, hence the edit.

As for the "swarmlord can't shoot" bit, very true but on the flip side, the Swarmlord would make gaunt-meat out of said Tyrants in Hand-to-hand. Can't tell ya how many times my opponents have sent their Termies/Honor Guard/Kick-Ass dudes out of a Land Raider (that has just plowed through some bugs) into my Swarmlord & Tyrant Guard unit, only to lose combat or even get wiped out entirely. 

With a little shooting support prior to the charge (including Paroxysm), there's also not much "Swarmy" & Co. can't take out in CC. :biggrin:


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Granted and true, but I don`t play to the CC style. My nids have far more emphasis on long range combat. It costs them none of their CC potential, so when those pesky BA finally close the gap, the numbers favour me. :biggrin: 

That`s the theory anyway. I`ll spare you the hash reality, but that`s just how I play the game. :laugh:


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## 1Foxman (Jan 30, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> Granted and true, but I don`t play to the CC style. My nids have far more emphasis on long range combat. It costs them none of their CC potential, so when those pesky BA finally close the gap, the numbers favour me. :biggrin:
> 
> That`s the theory anyway. I`ll spare you the hash reality, but that`s just how I play the game. :laugh:


Unless that pesky BA army is filled with both great shooting and combat, hehe sangguard and sternguard army and dont forget about mephiston.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

...And 1Foxman delivers aforementioned harsh reality...


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

Meh, Mephiston can be dealt with by the Swarmlord.

1. Use Paroxysm on Mephiston. He now hits the Swarmlord on 5+'s if he lives.

2. Charge at Initiative 6 and quadruple-Bonesabre him while he's Initiative 1 (thanks Tyrant Guard!).

3. Profit.



As for the Sanguinary Guard / Sternguard "army", they are both elite choices (barring Dante being taken) so that won't be much of an army. Sternguard are also easily dealt with by many things in the Tyranid army, as long as they're not sitting there shooting you for the whole game.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

dbgoldberg323 said:


> Meh, Mephiston can be dealt with by the Swarmlord.
> 
> 1. Use Paroxysm on Mephiston. He now hits the Swarmlord on 5+'s if he lives.
> 
> ...


`Fraid not buddy. That solution costs more points than the problem. A smart BA player (ie: 1Foxman) will not allow Swarmy to get close. Meppy can fly. Swarmy can`t. 

There are better ways to deal with Meppy. Tie him up in CC with a horde of gaunts while DoM floats next to the combat, and watch the wounds fall off. 

And as for that army being soft? :shok: 

I`ve played it. It ain`t fucking soft, trust me. I had just under a hundred models on the board to his twenty something. Dante may no be Meppy but he hurts just as bad if not worse. My swarm army (emphasis on swarm) was completely tabled by Fox`s Sang guard list.


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> `Fraid not buddy. That solution costs more points than the problem. A smart BA player (ie: 1Foxman) will not allow Swarmy to get close. Meppy can fly. Swarmy can`t.
> 
> There are better ways to deal with Meppy. Tie him up in CC with a horde of gaunts while DoM floats next to the combat, and watch the wounds fall off.


It happened to me. I was at 'Ard Boyz, and had just enough range to charge my opponent's Swarmlord with my Mephiston (who would have gone first in CC), IF I could roll like a 3 on my Fleet roll. I rolled a 1, and proceeded to get Bonesabred.

Also, it doesn't matter if "that solution costs more points than the problem". If that problem is one that 1,000 points of my army cannot deal with, then sure, why not throw 400 points at it if the opportunity is there? There's no reason to let him run around and wreck face if he'd literally be out-combating my army.

As for tying him up with a "horde of gaunts", that would be very situational. You'd have to be in range to charge him AND the brood would have to be 20-deep to make a difference. Round one (gaunts charge) and he kills 5, then 5 die to fearless wounds assuming they're in Synapse range. Round two (BA turn) he kills 5 and the last 5 die to fearless wounds, allowing you to shoot him and charge with something in your turn.

Also, having DoM keep up with "Meppy" since, as you said he's super fast, would be impossible.



Serpion5 said:


> And as for that army being soft? :shok:
> 
> I`ve played it. It ain`t fucking soft, trust me. I had just under a hundred models on the board to his twenty something.


Yeah, I have 15-16k of Blood Angels and play them regularly. I know how they work.  I think you misunderstood me which is made clearer to me here:



Serpion5 said:


> Dante may no be Meppy but he hurts just as bad if not worse. My swarm army (emphasis on swarm) was completely tabled by Fox`s Sang guard list.


What I was trying to say was, according to 1Foxman, a "sangguard and sternguard army" as he put it wouldn't really be an actual "army" since you can only have 3 Elite Choices. Sternguard cannot be fielded as a Troops Choice, thus you are relegated to only 3 of them (less if you are using Sanguinary Guard without Dante as they are also Elites).

Sure, a DoA army (which is likely what you're ultimately referring to) is a tough army. No argument there.


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## 1Foxman (Jan 30, 2011)

You seem to have the very narow sighted view to gaming, no offence intended but you do realise your playing against another human who makes choices and they may not just hand you their models on a table top so you can charge them with what you want.

BTW yes i play the mentioned BA list as a fun take the piss army with both Dante and mephiston sangguard, sternguard and speeder spamm. While not a competive list as such is still packs a punch while resiliant enough to keep pressuring your opponent. You may not consider 30 models an "army" i however do.

Yeah you can kill mephiston with the swarm lord and retinue but what if the SL is dead, or mephiston is deployed/redployed to the away from the SL do you chase him for 2-3 turns while he chews through your other key units or synapse control? The whole time your chasing mephiston around is the SL and retinue not getting shredded by the high amount of high armor save ignoring weapons fire? 

Yes you can easily tie these units up in combat or switch their shooting from the SL, but you have to have other ways of killing hard targets in an opponets army not just a one trick pony SL.


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

1Foxman said:


> You seem to have the very narow sighted view to gaming, no offence intended but you do realise your playing against another human who makes choices and they may not just hand you their models on a table top so you can charge them with what you want.
> 
> BTW yes i play the mentioned BA list as a fun take the piss army with both Dante and mephiston sangguard, sternguard and speeder spamm. While not a competive list as such is still packs a punch while resiliant enough to keep pressuring your opponent. You may not consider 30 models an "army" i however do.
> 
> ...


In an attempt to not rage out, I'll simply tell you that you obviously have no idea what I'm trying to say. You have no idea what kind of "view" of gaming I have either kid.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

To counter, Meppy will naturally advance towards me. Hormies are fleet, they should catch him easily enough. 

DoM doesn`t need to catch, he DS`s in a spore pod where I need him. At 90 pts, he is a cheaper and more reliable choice than Swarmy in this particular scenario, as well as other besides. 

I have played nids for approaching a decade now and this codex is probably the least competitive of the three I`ve known. Not to belittle your own experience (you`re older so may have played longer than me) but nids have always been my foremost and favourite tourney list. 

I`m not a competitive player at heart, I don`t do theoryhammer. Everything I have said comes from actual gaming experience against real and skilled opponents like Foxman here and a wide group of regular gamers with as much if not more gaming experience than us. 

You seem to be looking at the theory side of the game. I prefer to try things for real and then judge the tactic. 

I have tried Swarmy. And I have found him to be the less favourable of the options available to me. 

Thus far the only tyranid SC`s worth taking are Doom and Parasite, both of whom are situational at best and fragile as well.


EDIT: Before we go any further, what do you play and how long have you played dbgoldberg?


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> To counter, Meppy will naturally advance towards me. Hormies are fleet, they should catch him easily enough.
> 
> DoM doesn`t need to catch, he DS`s in a spore pod where I need him. At 90 pts, he is a cheaper and more reliable choice than Swarmy in this particular scenario, as well as other besides.
> 
> ...


Sorry, was the above pointed at me or 1Foxman?



Serpion5 said:


> EDIT: Before we go any further, what do you play and how long have you played dbgoldberg?


Oh god, I play Tyranids, Blood Angels (including vanilla Marines), Necrons, Chaos Daemons, and at different points, Orks in 5th Ed, IG, Daemonhunters, and Chaos Space Marines. I've been playing for 15 years and started in 2nd Edition. I'm also the president of my local club of 80+ members. :biggrin:

In 5th edition, I have played an ungodly amount of games (maybe 5 or so a week), including participating in tons of local tournaments. As for larger tournaments I have only recently started playing in them (within the last two years) but I've participated in two GT's and an 'Ard Boyz.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I was talking to you. 

But I see now you`re probably no stranger to what i`ve been saying. :grin: 

So, it sounds like you`re a competitive player then. Have you ever seen the swarmlord at a tournament as part of a successful list? Because I have not. When I chose to drop him in favour of a normal HT, I found the extra points helped immensely. It is still a tougher list to use in 5E, but I stand by my point that Swarmy is not suitable for a tournament level list.


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> I was talking to you.
> 
> But I see now you`re probably no stranger to what i`ve been saying. :grin:
> 
> So, it sounds like you`re a competitive player then. Have you ever seen the swarmlord at a tournament as part of a successful list? Because I have not. When I chose to drop him in favour of a normal HT, I found the extra points helped immensely. It is still a tougher list to use in 5E, but I stand by my point that Swarmy is not suitable for a tournament level list.


Lol, I understand what you're saying completely. And though I'd like to be considered a "competitive player", I have yet to grab "first overall" at a tournament that matters.

No, I have not seen the Swarmlord in a "successful list" by which I assume you mean "first overall" or "best general". However, that will not stop me from ramming him down people's throats at tournaments. Sure, maybe I'm hurting my chances by running a 400 point unit, but nowadays most deathstars are at least that much, and the Swarmlord can do quite a lot.

In casual and semi-competitive play, I have done some pretty awesome things with him, as it's really not all about him as much as his synergy with the army. He's cheaper than a Tyrant that would be kitted out to do similar things, (though he would still have more abilities), and honestly I really like his fluff. In fully competitive play, he has helped me weather the really choppy parts of my opponent's armies and I am glad that I had him in those situations (where a normal Tyrant would have been torn to bits).

Again, to each his own, but I disagree that the Swarmlord isn't "competitive". People say the same things about Lictors and Rippers but they show up in successful lists.

Who knows, if I hadn't fucked myself in the GenghisCon GT (70 players, in Aurora, Colorado) this year by making a rookie mistake because I was so tired, maybe I would have beaten my round three opponent (out of five rounds) and gone on to greater things that day with the Swarmlord...


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

1Foxman said:


> You may not consider 30 models an "army" i however do.


And I consider my 20 model Grey Knight army to be an army. So 30 is sure as hell an army. 

Low model count for the win.


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

Doelago said:


> And I consider my 20 model Grey Knight army to be an army. So 30 is sure as hell an army.
> 
> Low model count for the win.


Again, not what I was trying to say. He completely misunderstood me and based his statement off of it.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

dbgoldberg323 said:


> Lol, I understand what you're saying completely. And though I'd like to be considered a "competitive player", I have yet to grab "first overall" at a tournament that matters.
> 
> No, I have not seen the Swarmlord in a "successful list" by which I assume you mean "first overall" or "best general". However, that will not stop me from ramming him down people's throats at tournaments. Sure, maybe I'm hurting my chances by running a 400 point unit, but nowadays most deathstars are at least that much, and the Swarmlord can do quite a lot.
> 
> ...


Never said he was no good, just that there were better options. I know it works, imo it`s just too difficult to _make_ him work, so I use tyrant instead. 

And on lictors, I agree with you, they are fantastic, especially deathleaper. I once had a rune priest unable to cast any powers against me for three turns due to the fact that DL marked him and put him at Ld 7. :laugh: 

Rippers I have less use for, my six troops choices typically consist of four gaunt hordes and two warrior broods. :dunno: 



Doelago said:


> And I consider my 20 model Grey Knight army to be an army. So 30 is sure as hell an army.
> 
> Low model count for the win.


GK are no as hurty as BA. Having vs`d both, I know this. Force weapons dislke SitW, but Furious Charging Master crafted flying power weapons don`t care about it.  


And you elite style armies have a much easier time in the movement phase than I do... :wacko:


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## Jackinator (Nov 18, 2008)

Doelago said:


> And I consider my 20 model Grey Knight army to be an army. So 30 is sure as hell an army.
> 
> Low model count for the win.


You think 20 is a low model count? One of the weirdest armies I've ever faced was 9 models. Couldn't quite believe my eyes when he set it out on the board :laugh:


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

Jackinator said:


> You think 20 is a low model count? One of the weirdest armies I've ever faced was 9 models. Couldn't quite believe my eyes when he set it out on the board :laugh:


Not to hijack, but my club had a silly contest to see what the lowest model count army could be at 2,000 points (you had to actually fill the 2,000 points or be as close as friggin possible).

The winner was:

[SIZE=+1]GREY KNIGHTS

2,000 points

HQ
-Grand Master AWESOME (Mastery Level 2, Master-Crafted Psycannon, Master-Crafted Nemesis Warding Stave, Blind Grenades, Melta Bombs, Digital Weapons, Psybolt Ammunition, Empyrean Brain Mines, Psychotroke Grenades, Rad Grenades, Orbital Strike Relay) 410
-Draigo 275

TROOPS
-1 Paladin (Apothecary, Master-Crafted Nemesis Warding Stave) 155
-1 Paladin (Apothecary, Master-Crafted Nemesis Warding Stave) 155

HEAVY
-Nemesis Dreadknight (2x Heavy Psycannons, Personal Teleporter, 2x Nemesis Greatswords) 335
-Nemesis Dreadknight (2x Heavy Psycannons, Personal Teleporter, 2x Nemesis Greatswords) 335
-Nemesis Dreadknight (2x Heavy Psycannons, Personal Teleporter, 2x Nemesis Greatswords) 335

*Note that models had to be TRIMMED DOWN IN POINTS to fit into this 2k list, and that with two Grand Masters, you may have both Grand Masters make D3 of those Dreadknights scoring!

*7 MODELS*[/SIZE]


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

dbgoldberg323 said:


> *7 MODELS*


You wins.


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

Jackinator said:


> You think 20 is a low model count? One of the weirdest armies I've ever faced was 9 models. Couldn't quite believe my eyes when he set it out on the board :laugh:


Also, what was in that list?


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

dbgoldberg323 said:


> --edited by me--
> Sorry, my previous post was a bit over the top.
> 
> My point: Swarmlord + Tyrant Guard = good. No need for "two tyrants" instead of the Swarmlord & Tyrant Guard. Him and his buds perform a specific role very well. Two Tyrants get shot in the teeth very easily. Simple.


Heh, limited internet access means I'm now curious about the 'Rage' caused :wink: 

Still, if you play him a lot and like him, who am I to argue? I just flinch at paying 240 for a Trygon - I'm truly a swarm player at heart, so 300+ for 2/3 models just isn't going to happen, even in a NidZilla list...


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## wwwZugZugorc (Feb 22, 2011)

pffft Orks can do a 4 model army and gray knights a 3 model.

Back on topic: I got my shipment of about 2k points worth of bugs today, its like Christmas, damn i'm gonna be busy the next few weeks.


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## TSROAD (May 18, 2011)

yeah i do know the feeling but i love my tyranids too much to shelf them.

ive recently started a Dark Eldar army that ill use for a while untill Nids get decent again.

additionaly are you getting rid of your Nids? And if so, what units do you have??


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

wwwZugZugorc said:


> pffft Orks can do a 4 model army and gray knights a 3 model.


:laugh: Not in 2,000 points they can't. You missed the point.


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

dbgoldberg323 said:


> The winner was:
> 
> [SIZE=+1]GREY KNIGHTS
> 
> ...


that's grand but the Nemesis Dreadknight are illegal because you can't have the same weapon 2x (you can't have 2x Heavy Psycannons and 2x Nemesis Greatswords) also l am not %100 sure but you can't have both a Master-Crafted Psycannon and a Orbital Strike Relay.

but on the topic l did a poll a few days ago: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=90137

as you can see most people believe there fine. l think there just a bit harder to use then say SM which is why people rage.


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

sybarite said:


> that's grand but the Nemesis Dreadknight are illegal because you can't have the same weapon 2x (you can't have 2x Heavy Psycannons and 2x Nemesis Greatswords) also l am not %100 sure but you can't have both a Master-Crafted Psycannon and a Orbital Strike Relay.
> 
> but on the topic l did a poll a few days ago: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=90137
> 
> as you can see most people believe there fine. l think there just a bit harder to use then say SM which is why people rage.


Ah, I see the line that says "each weapon can only be taken once".

However, you're wrong on "not being able to have both" the Master-Crafted Psycannon + Orbital Strike Relay. The Grand Master's entry says "May replace Storm Bolter with:....Psycannon" AND "May take any of the following:.....Orbital Strike Relay". Seems quite silly to say you can't take both considering it straight up says you can. 

Ya know, I actually had to REDUCE the wargear I was taking to fit the list into 2,000 points, so by dropping the three duplicated weapons on the Dreadknights I can still take three *different* weapons instead _*AND*_ add in the other wargear I was leaving out.

:yahoo:


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

dbgoldberg323 said:


> Seems quite silly to say you can't take both considering it straight up says you can.


that's why l said "also l am not %100 sure but" . l remember its a range weapon that was odd for some reason.


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