# Which primarch's return would help the Imperium the most?



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

1) Which primarch's return would help the Imperium the most?

I think I'd have to go with good ol' Roboute Guilliman (even though he is in stasis on the brink of death)

He seems to be very good at holding shit together and running things efficiently and productively 

2) I guess my second question would be how would you reform the Imperium (if you were the returned primarch and had the power to do so)? 

I think something would have to be done about how dogmatic the Imperium has become (starting with the Mechanicus)...I know that is actually one of the major characteristics that makes 40k 40k, but I don't see how the Imperium can survive without innovation, be it technological or otherwise


----------



## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

As much as I'd prefer to see Leman Russ return, Guilliman's return would have massive structure being instituted on many levels. Of course, my Space Wolves wouldn't give a flyin' fekk what he had to say in the matter as they'd probably flip him off and call him a momma's boy, then go kill something worthwhile.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I think Roboute Guilliman's return would probably be the most interesting if you were a writer for the Black Library 

it would introduce a lot internal struggle within the Imperium because Guilliman would probably attempt a massive overhaul of the structure of the Imperium since Guilliman's whole schtick is being an organizational genius


----------



## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Guilliman would definitly make an impact on the Imperium, but my loyality, if any to one of the imperium, is to russ.


----------



## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Vulkan yeh bitches. We would not have twin linked meltas and flamers, no we would have god damned multi-linked flamers and meltas.


----------



## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Is this Primarchs who could actually come back and help out? Or just any Primarch we think would be good?

Cause if it's the first our options are pretty limited (Russ, Khan, Lion'el, Corax and Vulkan). Of these five I would say either Lion'el for his strategic abilities which would help out around the Eye or the Eastern Fringe or Vulkan who could hopefully have a chat with the Mechanicus about not being such dinks (although I don't really hold out much hope of success with that) and is also generally a pretty nice guy.

If I just get to pick which Primarch is best for the Imperium I'd say either Guilliman for his organizational skills or Horus for his epicness.


----------



## Takizuchi (Aug 27, 2010)

I would say Vulkan as well. Ties with the various Inquisition branches would get sketchy tho if Vulkan managed to get the whole of the Imperium to follow the Promethium cult tho.


----------



## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

I think Guilliman would probably have the biggest impact. His geneseed is spread through about 50% of the space marines chapters so no one is gonna contradict what he says when he starts kicking some butt and tearing down the dogmatic confused mess that is the current state of the imperium  Once he's done that we'll start moving forward again...

Although my loyalty lies with Russ, obviously, and if he came back he'd well and truly tear things up.

The big question is, if an actual Primarch came back, would he automatically take the position of Head of the Imperium, being the closest thing to a living, breathing Emperor? Or would the powers that be just try and kill him off before anyone found out, sensing the threat to their power?


----------



## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

Nah Vulkan and Corax do not agree with the imperial rule so much... Russ is good at fighting but not really thinking.

Gulliman and Lion'el really exceed at tactics and raising morale but i fear that they would probably want to seize control of the imperium and have a serious tension between themselves and the High Lords Of Terra, which could create some chaos within the imperium.

However Khan.... (who i voted for)... is a talented fighter, good at tactics and will raise morale significantly, so hes a jack of all trades, but i think he would not want to interfere to much with the politics side of the imperium


----------



## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Seeing that I absolutely can't stand the Ultrasmurfs, I'll have to say I hope Guilliman stays in stasis and throw my vote to Leman Russ. 

Why? 

Cause he has bravado! 


I mean when the chips are down and the cards stacked against you, which primarch would you rather have your back? 

I think he has just what the Imperium needs, a kick butt take no prisoners attitude to rally behind. That being said however, I think the combination of Russ not taking crap from anyone and undoubtedly having major problems with how things are currently run, would probably lead to another civil war.

I'm not sure that would be a bad thing though. 

After the utter destruction he wrought, the Imperium would rise out of the ashes like a phoenix. No more red tape, no more ponderous Adeptus Administratum... no more messing around. An Imperium re-molded by Russ would have one focus. 

Kicking butt. 


Lazered in on this and with Russ at the head, the Imperium would be on a much more solid footing in the end. Sure 500 trillion people would have to die to achieve this, but it's the end results we're talking about here right? :wink:


Girlish Guilliman would probably get this done without civil war, but I just can't stand him... so I say bring back Russ and let the bloodshed commence!!! :victory:


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Guilliman most definitely. I'd like to say Lion El Johnson. But none of the primarchs have as much influence in the Imperium as Guilliman does. 

Why did I say the Lion? Because, I believe in order for the Imperium to survive they need to create a stronger and more effective fighting force. Especially with the new development of races like the Necrons and Tyranids growing in the galaxy. And because it was Guilliman who moved to the Chapters, I don't think his organization of the astartes really works with these "new developments." Afterall, there is so much a chapter can do. More than often chapters are divided to different parts of the galaxy. For that reason I believe only Guilliman if, if anyone, would be able to convince the High Lords of Terra to give any fighting force that power.

What would I do? Well... given especially the fact that the Black Legion may have gained enough support to run around pillaging the Imperium like the old Legions did against the alien galaxy during the Great Crusade, I would advise the High Lords to perhaps create a new set of "Legions" but created from pure genetic stock and commanded by Guilliman under the High Lords. That should stabilize things a bit.


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Guilliman obviously, what the Imperium needs at the moment is skills to organize the reform much of the red tape that suffocates it. Guilliman was recorded in the Deathwatch book to be highly revered amoung the Imperium, so that's another plus.

I guess the Lion would be a possibility and Dorn if we could bring guys back from the dead. I'm leaning more to Dorn especially after hearing about Savage Weapons. I've not nothing against the Lion, I just think he's too paranoid to function as the shining symbol of an Imperium resurgence.

So Guilliman first followed by Dorn if we can't get the Ultramarine's Primarch.


----------



## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Guilliman most definitely. I'd like to say Lion El Johnson. But none of the primarchs have as much influence in the Imperium as Guilliman does.
> 
> Why did I say the Lion? Because, I believe in order for the Imperium to survive they need to create a stronger and more effective fighting force. Especially with the new development of races like the Necrons and Tyranids growing in the galaxy. And because it was Guilliman who moved to the Chapters, I don't think his organization of the astartes really works with these "new developments." Afterall, there is so much a chapter can do. More than often chapters are divided to different parts of the galaxy. For that reason I believe only Guilliman if, if anyone, would be able to convince the High Lords of Terra to give any fighting force that power.
> 
> What would I do? Well... given especially the fact that the Black Legion may have gained enough support to run around pillaging the Imperium like the old Legions did against the alien galaxy during the Great Crusade, I would advise the High Lords to perhaps create a new set of "Legions" but created from pure genetic stock and commanded by Guilliman under the High Lords. That should stabilize things a bit.



But why would Girly...err Guilliman even want to do this? 

It was his idea to split the Legions up in the first place. Had they listened to Dorn the Imperium wouldn't be in this mess! Bless Dorn's heart for being so self sacrificial, but he should have challenged Guilliman to a duel to determine the future of the Imperium. Either that, or let Russ challenge him... that would have been awesome! :biggrin:


----------



## Hammer49 (Feb 12, 2011)

Russ as hes imho the greater warrior, and as implied in the heresy books is much smarter and intelligent than given credit for, and therefore could surprise his enemys. Where as guilliam I think is to predictable and careful.


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Uber Ork said:


> It was his idea to split the Legions up in the first place. Had they listened to Dorn the Imperium wouldn't be in this mess! Bless Dorn's heart for being so self sacrificial, but he should have challenged Guilliman to a duel to determine the future of the Imperium. Either that, or let Russ challenge him... that would have been awesome! :biggrin:


Not really, most of the problems that plague the Imperium (The red tape, the lack of communication and the corruption) occured millenia after all the Primarchs where gone. Splitting up the Legions was a prudent descision especially as it made it easier to cover more ground more efficently and prevent another Horus rebellion.


----------



## demon bringer (Oct 14, 2008)

I'd love to see russ back, and I wonder what he could acheive being out of the shodows of his other brothers.

I would also like to add what if the imperium already know the whereabouts of the surving primarchs, and do there best to keep them hidden, guiliman is not nocking on deaths door just in stasis to keep him out of the way, while the high lords of terra enjoy control


----------



## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Gree said:


> Not really, most of the problems that plague the Imperium (The red tape, the lack of communication and the corruption) occured millenia after all the Primarchs where gone. Splitting up the Legions was a prudent descision especially as it made it easier to cover more ground more efficently and prevent another Horus rebellion.


Right. That's not what I was talking about.

*ckcrawford* had said if Guilliman came back he _"would advise the High Lords to perhaps create a new set of 'Legions'"_ and that he felt that would _"stabilize things a bit."_ He also said that he felt Guilliman, _"if anyone, would be able to convince the High Lords of Terra to give any fighting force that power."_

I responded by saying why would Guilliman do that when he was the ones who convinced the original High Lords of Terra to disband the Legions and create the chapters in the first place?


All the red tape and ponderous bureaucracy that's developed in the 10,000 years since the Heresy has nothing to do with Guilliman. He's been in stasis most of that time.



.


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Uber Ork said:


> *ckcrawford* had said if Guilliman came back he _"would advise the High Lords to perhaps create a new set of 'Legions'"_ and that he felt that would _"stabilize things a bit."_ He also said that he felt Guilliman, _"if anyone, would be able to convince the High Lords of Terra to give any fighting force that power."_


Correct, I've already read his post. Your point?



Uber Ork said:


> I responded by saying why would Guilliman do that when he was the ones who convinced the original High Lords of Terra to disband the Legions and create the chapters in the first place?


And then you made a remark about how they should have listened to Dorn, implying it was Guilliman's fault that the Imperium was in it's current mess. That was the remark I responded to.



Uber Ork said:


> It was his idea to split the Legions up in the first place. Had they listened to Dorn the Imperium wouldn't be in this mess! Bless Dorn's heart for being so self sacrificial, but he should have challenged Guilliman to a duel to determine the future of the Imperium. Either that, or let Russ challenge him... that would have been awesome! :biggrin:


See?



Uber Ork said:


> All the red tape and ponderous bureaucracy that's developed in the 10,000 years since the Heresy has nothing to do with Guilliman. He's been in stasis most of that time.


I know, I've already stated that myself.


----------



## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Gree said:


> Guilliman obviously,
> [snip]
> Dorn if we could bring guys back from the dead.


Wait a second. If we can't bring people back from the dead (which is reasonable) then how are you bringing Guilliman back?


----------



## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Russ, because they don't need a book style leader right now, they need a grab em by the balls in scream in your face.


----------



## Stopdrop&roll (Apr 18, 2011)

To be honest any of them would do. If you break it all down they all have the plus points that would help and parts that would hold them back. 
Guilliman: Orangisational skills that would see the Imperium turned out its head one part at a time. He is proberly the only one who could logisticaly get it done (Over half of all SMs have his geneseed markers, and would more than likly follow him if he decided to try. 
Corax: This is an odd ball with the tactics his legion/chapter use now i can see it being a waiting game until all of a sudden all the highlords have "accidents" involing bolter rounds to the head. 
The Khan i can't see getting into the mess that is running the imperium 
Vulkan i can't see doing it either due to him being branded a heritic to the current dogma 
As for Russ well he would (in my view) look at it now and go all space wolf on the high lords arses. 
If we could bring back from the dead. I dont even think the emporer could sort it now truly. The vision he set out with at the start of great crusade has been twisted and basterdised and is now totaly FUBAR. Only one way for the imperium to go now thats the way of the eldar


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Wait a second. If we can't bring people back from the dead (which is reasonable) then how are you bringing Guilliman back?


Because I don't consider him to be dead. Effectively so yes, but not truly dead.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Russ is a conqueror, not a ruler. Guilliman would be the most effective leader.


----------



## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

I believe that if Gman returned as everyone else said he would restructure the Imperium. The problem with this is anytime you change something suddenly people either react out of fear or anger. I believe the changes would cause massive rebellion boardering on a second Heresy.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Uber Ork said:


> But why would Girly...err Guilliman even want to do this?
> 
> It was his idea to split the Legions up in the first place. Had they listened to Dorn the Imperium wouldn't be in this mess! Bless Dorn's heart for being so self sacrificial, but he should have challenged Guilliman to a duel to determine the future of the Imperium. Either that, or let Russ challenge him... that would have been awesome! :biggrin:


It was his idea to split up the legions in the first place, due the the events that were currently and previously engulfing the galaxy. Given the more recent events, of Abaddon's Black Legion, the C'tan and Necrons, growing empires of Orks, and the size of the hive fleets escalating, I think he would have thought of a better plan. And one that would have obviously pushed the Imperium to create a stronger military force in one shape or form. Given nothing conquered the galaxy like the legions, I think he would have used something similar to that.


----------



## demon bringer (Oct 14, 2008)

If russ' quest was successfull would be not be returning with something to save the all farther, if so surley the emporer and a primarch would be a big help to the imperium


----------



## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

The Lion: While a great tactician, he was too vain and would probably spend too much time thinking how he could become the new emperor of the universe rather than defend it or he would sell it out to further his own goals.

The Khan: Never trust a man with a pony tail!

Guilliman: He would spend too much time writing a new book. It would probably work... but it would be soooooooo boring.

Vulkan: I could see this working. He cares for the common folk and would make the enemies of man kind burn.

Russ: Snarling and running headlong at any enemy the would put up a good fight is no way to save an empire. Russ is a warrior, and i think he would have a hard time helping unite the imperium while always looking for the next epic battle.

Corax: The under dog. I don't think he would be the first choice but he led slaves into battle against slavers and won... imagine what he could do with an empire? However, I think he would have a hard time convincing the masses to take his methods seriously.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

As always, Russ is a fan darling
but cooler heads have prevailed and the G-Man is on top, so far 

anyway Guilliman is "rumoured to be healing" while Dorn is a skeleton encased in clear amber, so that's why I listed Guilliman as an option but not Dorn


----------



## DijnsK (Mar 29, 2011)

why not Sanguinus? i think the empire would benefit greatly from such a warrior...
even horus admitted that Sanguinus should have been made warmaster instead of him


----------



## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Gree said:


> And then you made a remark about how they should have listened to Dorn, implying it was Guilliman's fault that the Imperium was in it's current mess. That was the remark I responded to.


Wow... :laugh: 

I'm not sure how you got that out of what I said...


That's not even remotely what I was saying. *ckcrawford* was talking about how the Imperium would be better off if the legions existed instead of the chapters. I too think the Legions were better than chapters (cooler at any rate),  but what that has to do with red tape and bureaucracy I have no idea. Our talking about the Legions had to do with overall military coordination and cohesion, not red tape.

Were you referring to my comments about Russ?



Uber Ork said:


> I think he has just what the Imperium needs, a kick butt take no prisoners attitude to rally behind. That being said however, I think the combination of Russ not taking crap from anyone and undoubtedly having major problems with how things are currently run, would probably lead to another civil war.
> 
> I'm not sure that would be a bad thing though.
> 
> ...


This is the only time I mentioned anything about red tape. That had nothing to do with Guilliman, but simply how Russ would view the Imperium's current leadership style and cumbersome bureaucracy if he were ever to return from the EoT.










ckcrawford said:


> It was his idea to split up the legions in the first place, due the the events that were currently and previously engulfing the galaxy. Given the more recent events, of Abaddon's Black Legion, the C'tan and Necrons, growing empires of Orks, and the size of the hive fleets escalating, I think he would have thought of a better plan. And one that would have obviously pushed the Imperium to create a stronger military force in one shape or form. Given nothing conquered the galaxy like the legions, I think he would have used something similar to that.


Ahh yes, I see what you're saying now. That would certainly be cool. I'm a huge fan of the Legions, but again, I hate Guilliman... so I would hope it's Russ who returned instead! :biggrin: :laugh:

Consequently, if Russ did return, he might be even more of a shoe in to bring back the Legions than Guilliman (at least his own Legion anyway).  Since he wasn't a fan of the Legions being split up in the first place, I'm sure bringing them back would be near the top of his agenda... right after executing each and everyone of the High Lords of Terra for making such a mess of the Allfather's vision.

*Bringing back the Legions...* yet one more reason to vote for Russ. See what I'm sayin' here? You should have voted for Russ! :biggrin: :laugh:







Ahh! Ninja'd!

*Edit:*


DijnsK said:


> why not Sanguinus? i think the empire would benefit greatly from such a warrior...
> even horus admitted that Sanguinus should have been made warmaster instead of him


I think the OP was limiting it to Primarchs who actually had a chance to come back, i.e. are in stasis, or are lost in the warp, who's disappearance is a mystery and so there's a chance they could return... etc.





.


----------



## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

I voted Vulkan as he is the most technologically minded after Manus (and no way is he coming back) so he may be the best person to help with the throne?

Also didnt the sons of horus attempt to clone their daddy at one point? Would it not be possible to clone us a new guilliman or dorn as their bodies are available to steal tissue samples from?


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

yeah, I only included the Primarchs who have at least a slight chance of coming back

if any primarch could come back, then yeah Sanguinius would right up there with Guilliman as the top choice


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Uber Ork said:


> Wow... :laugh:
> 
> I'm not sure how you got that out of what I said...


I did. I saw a post and I responded to it. Plain and simple.



Uber Ork said:


> That's not even remotely what I was saying. *ckcrawford* was talking about how the Imperium would be better off if the legions existed instead of the chapters. I too think the Legions were better than chapters (cooler at any rate),  but what that has to do with red tape and bureaucracy I have no idea. Our talking about the Legions had to do with overall military coordination and cohesion, not red tape.


Cohesion and coordination is what I was talking about. The issues I adressed (The red tape, the lack of communication and the corruption) all effect the military of the Imperium.

However here you are putting the wider Imperium's messes with Guilliman's descisions.



Uber Ork said:


> first place. Had they listened to Dorn the Imperium wouldn't be in this mess! Bless Dorn's heart for being so self sacrificial, but he should have challenged Guilliman to a duel to determine the future of the Imperium.


The future of the Imperium would naturally encompass much more than Astartes Legions. The Astartes are after all not the rulers of the Imperium, but rather one part of the monolithic power structure.



Uber Ork said:


> Were you referring to my comments about Russ?


Nope.



Uber Ork said:


> This is the only time I mentioned anything about red tape. That had nothing to do with Guilliman, but simply how Russ would view the Imperium's current leadership style and cumbersome bureaucracy if he were ever to return from the EoT.


That's nice, however that's not the issue I'm adressing.

However if you want to I will refute your assertions, but that's not the issue I'm concerned with.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

If you read Age of Darkness it really puts into perspective what Guilliman intended his Codex Astartes to be. (hint: not how it's currently used)



He wrote it to be a guide, a source of hard worn battlefield knowledge and potential scenarios- NOT a holy set of rules that must be followed, he comments that commanders must still use their judgement and intiative in the ordering/organisation of their forces with the Codex merely providing valuable insight


The only thing Guillman insisted on was the breakup of the Legions, and if all his brothers has argued against him (rather than just Vulkan, Russ, and Dorn) he might not have even forced the issue on that.


----------



## Anarkitty (Jul 29, 2008)

Horus.

The Imperium is stagnating and slowly dying, and taking the rest of the galaxy with it.
Humanity is a cancer and needs to be destroyed once and for all.

Besides, Abbadon's a little bitch and he needs his daddy to come back and teach him how it's done


----------



## DijnsK (Mar 29, 2011)

Uber Ork said:


> I think the OP was limiting it to Primarchs who actually had a chance to come back, i.e. are in stasis, or are lost in the warp, who's disappearance is a mystery and so there's a chance they could return... etc.
> .


oh right! i didnt get that sorry! Vulkan! 'Cause we need fire to roast us some heretics!!


----------



## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> If you read Age of Darkness it really puts into perspective what Guilliman intended his Codex Astartes to be. (hint: not how it's currently used)


No I haven't read Age of Darkness... but seeing as how I don't have time to read it... I might as well take a peek at your spoiler. 



Baron Spikey said:


> He wrote it to be a guide, a source of hard worn battlefield knowledge and potential scenarios- NOT a holy set of rules that must be followed, he comments that commanders must still use their judgement and intiative in the ordering/organisation of their forces with the Codex merely providing valuable insight


Hmmm... interesting. 

Sounds like much of how the Imperium has gone as a whole. Intended one way, but over the course of 10,000 years taken completely another. So much so, that I think any of the primarchs would be shocked at what they found should they ever return.

The break up of the legions was in all honesty, anti Girly... I mean Guilliman sentiment aside, both good and bad for the imperium. Good in that it prevented power from being centralized in any one individual's hands, bad because it prevented power from being centralized in anyone individual's hands. 

Before, during the crusade, you had obvious military leaders with military clout that got things done. Horus wasn't called the "warmaster" for nothing. He gave an oder and that was that. The imperial army and navy, the astartes, everyone, took their orders from him. Things were streamlined and efficient. So much so that the Imperium rode that system (with first the Emperor in charge, then Horus) all the way to being the primary masters of the Milky Way galaxy.

However, as we know all to well, that all was undone when Horus rebelled. Guilliman's plan to split the legions was meant to protect from that much power from ever being centralized into one individuals hands again. 

It was a purposed step on Guilliman's part to break down military cohesion and overall coordination. 

No longer would one person be able to coordinate hundreds of thousands of astartes, plus titan legions, plus an untold number of Imperial army/navy personnel, etc. In creating the codex Astartes and the 2nd founding, he created a system with checks and balances. The Astartes would become semi self autonomous chapters with the army becoming the imperial guard and under separate control. 

The Lexicanum article on the subject says this...


> _The Adeptus Astartes is comprised of autonomous Chapters, each of which is a complete army in itself...
> 
> ...The Chapter Masters owe their allegiance to the Emperor. Ultimately the Chapter is subject to the orders of the highest-ranking among the Adeptus Terra, although only in a general sense._


In _"*a general sense*,"_ because in an empire the size of the Imperium, there's no way the highest-ranking members of the Adeptus Terra can micromanage (roughly) a thousand chapters activities. In the end it results in the Astartes being _"*comprised of*"_ a thousand _"*autonomous Chapters*"_ each having it's own set of priorities, deciding what distress calls to answer, how they should divide up their forces, what to defend, what to attack, etc. Once on the ground they appoint an overall leader, but that's not the same as the Primarchs with Horus at their head. 

While this makes it darn near impossible to centralize the kind of power that Horus wielded, it also makes for a very difficult military situation. Guilliman's decentralization of power made sure that a large scale rebellion could never happen again, but it also created a problem (as already stated) for overall military cohesion and coordination (between the chapters themselves, between the chapters and Imperial Guard, Titan Legions, Navy, etc.). 

With the Imperium being so vast and ponderous, it really is hard to respond to all the different crisis in the same highly organized and efficient manner as when the Primarch's commanded. 







Baron Spikey said:


> The only thing Guillman insisted on was the breakup of the Legions, and if all his brothers has argued against him (rather than just Vulkan, Russ, and Dorn) he might not have even forced the issue on that.


That brings up an interesting point. Had Dorn not been off chasing the traitor legions, and instead been around while these decisions were being kicked around, I wonder if he could have debated the splitting of the legions with more success?

As it was Dorn, Russ, and Vulkan objected, Guilliman, Corax, and the Khan were for it, Sanguinius and Manus were dead, and Jonson (I'm assuming) was already asleep within the Rock at this time. It was 3 on 3, with the High Lords of Terra siding with Guilliman's plan.

Is it possible that Dorn could have convinced either Corax or the Khan to side with him if he'd been involved in the debate from the beginning? It was already decided by the time he was recalled.





.


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Uber Ork said:


> With the Imperium being so vast and ponderous, it really is hard to respond to all the different crisis in the same highly organized and efficient manner as when the Primarch's commanded.


Or easier in a way. The Legions where intrusments of conquest, often gathered in one area. Chapters are spread out and can protect areas of space better.



Uber Ork said:


> That brings up an interesting point. Had Dorn not been off chasing the traitor legions, and instead been around while these decisions were being kicked around, I wonder if he could have debated the splitting of the legions with more success?


Unlikely.

IA Imperial Fists



> Dorn was shaken, his quest for redemption had blinded him to changing times. He could not see why humanity would not trust the Imperial Fists because of what the Traitor Legions had done


Humanity had lost it's faith in the Astartes. It's implied in the Fists's own article that he had lost sight of the political situation in the Imperium.



Uber Ork said:


> As it was Dorn, Russ, and Vulkan objected, Guilliman, Corax, and the Khan were for it, Sanguinius and Manus were dead, and Jonson (I'm assuming) was already asleep within the Rock at this time. It was 3 on 3, with the High Lords of Terra siding with Guilliman's plan.


The High Lords charged Guilliman with it, he did't decide to push it forward by himself.

Insignium Astartes



> The High Lords tasked the Ultramarines Primarch Roboute Guilliman with the job of reordering the Imperial military forces





Uber Ork said:


> Is it possible that Dorn could have convinced either Corax or the Khan to side with him if he'd been involved in the debate from the beginning? It was already decided by the time he was recalled.


No it had'nt. Dorn was still arguing with Guilliman before he split his Legion.


----------



## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

Russ, because with the Tyranids/Necrons/XIII Black Crusade/Hello Kitties/WAAAAAAGHs/etc closing in on the Imperium from all sides, they need the most epically badass warrior in the history of the Imperium back in order to bring out the ferocity needed to survive.

The Khan, Corax, Vulkan and the Lion I honestly don't see helping on a grand scale in the apocalyptic scenario for the "current" Imperium of Man. None are strong enough to withstand the onslaught.

Guilliman would be a second choice, but only really _after_ humanity managed to survive. As with the Heresy, massive restructuring and rebuilding would have to take place to ensure the continued survival of the Imperium after these wars shake it to its roots.

Dorn would have been nice about 500 years back, before all of these threats reared their ugly heads, in order to begin defensive preparations across the Ultima Segmentum and other arms of the galaxy for any sort of crazy alien incursions. At this point in time though, his reintroduction would really create (I think) negligible differences.

My two cents...

Edit: Dammit! Clicked "The Lion" with the mentally handicapped "oh it's The Wolf!" aka I'm an idiot. Take one off for Lion and add one to Russ. Woooops!


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Corax would be the worst choice. He never really like the Imperium anyway; as he states in _Raven's Flight_. The only reason why he ever went along with the plan, was because it gave him "purpose." He even refers to Angron's reason as "freedom." 

Sometimes I wonder if Corax could have been tainted. But obviously that would not have been a wise choice for the chaos gods; seeing that he never got along with Horus.


----------



## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> Corax would be the worst choice. He never really like the Imperium anyway; as he states in _Raven's Flight_. The only reason why he ever went along with the plan, was because it gave him "purpose." He even refers to Angron's reason as "freedom."
> 
> Sometimes I wonder if Corax could have been tainted. But obviously that would not have been a wise choice for the chaos gods; seeing that he never got along with Horus.


wow i didn't know that.



But which Primarch would most likely come back I wonder? I think Khan would be the easiest because he got lost in an Eldar webway (i think) so he could come back anytime now and he might have only been in there for weeks)

I voted for Roboute Guilliman (duh)


----------



## Ashkore08 (Feb 12, 2011)

waaaaah?! no Sangy? I think sanguinus is a really cool guy. eh kills demons as a matter of course, and doesnt afraid of anything.

Putting my favouritism aside, Guilliman. With the need for more awesome warriors when the Imperium goes to pot, his geneseed will be needed to create more efficient warriors. Or russ's geneseed for that awesome Space Wolf fighting Ferocity. Either of these will make a good return.


----------



## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

Lion El'Jonson. I voted for him because he's the most likely to return and could concievably help the IoM a lot.


----------



## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

High_Seraph said:


> Lion El'Jonson. I voted for him because he's the most likely to return and could concievably help the IoM a lot.


Kind of like how Corax's spirit was broken after the whole mutation incident, do you think Jonson's spirit was broken after Luther betrayed him? I wonder if he ever did wake up, would he be the same man that he was before he returned to Caliban/found part of his Legion in rebellion and under the sway of Chaos/fought Luther, etc.?

Codex DA puts it like this on Pg. 8


> _For Jonson one final, shattering betrayal remained to be discovered on his return to his home world of Caliban....
> 
> ...The betrayal Jonson discovered shook him to his very core._



I just wonder if he'd be the same man? Corax left, to who knows where, a shell of what he used to be. I mean the guy locks himself in a tower for a year, and then takes off in a shuttle craft never to be seen or heard from again. Corax's was shattered by guilt, and Johnson by a friends betrayal, but I wonder if the end result would be the same. 


If not, I think Johnson could be a good choice for the Imperium. Not as good as Russ though! :biggrin:


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Once again, I listed primarchs who have at least a slight chance of returning 

1) Guilliman is in stasis on the brink of death but rumoured to be healing, so I listed him 
2) Lion is slumbering somewhere in the Rock, so he's listed too
3) Sanguinius was killed by Horus, so I didn't list him 
4) Dorn is a skeleton, so not listed 
5) Manus was decapitated, definitely wasn't going to list him 
6) The rest of the loyalist primarchs are missing, so they're all listed

I think Jonson may be better for the Imperium than Russ, sure Russ wasn't stupid and he was definitely smarter than his unkempt barbarian appearance suggested, but what the Imperium needs now is a planner/leader, and I think the Lion trumps Russ here

I'd also like to point out that Russ wasn't the only savage/aggressive-style primarch among the loyalists. The Khan was very savage too (I think the White Scars are known to be so ferocious in battle that the Imperium thinks its either a flaw in the geneseed or a result of the savage culture of Chogoris. 

I'm sure Russ was highly intelligent, but Jonson has always been described as one of the best strategists/tacticians among the primarchs, in the same league as Horus and Alpharius...in that area I'm pretty certain he excels over Russ, plus he wasn't a slouch at fighting either, he managed to brawl Russ to a draw and then knocked wolf boy the fuck out with one punch (yes, a sucker-punch), but he wasn't a weakling like Lorgar, far from it


----------



## Abomination (Jul 6, 2008)

Leman Russ

Seeing as us Space Wolves are the best it makes sense to have the best Primarch come back. Space Wolves are about kicking ass and taking names, Russ could do that better than any other Primarch. Just give it a day or two and the Space Wolves with Russ at our head would sort all this shit out.


----------



## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> I think Jonson may be better for the Imperium than Russ, sure Russ wasn't stupid and he was definitely smarter than his unkempt barbarian appearance suggested, but what the Imperium needs now is a planner/leader, and I think the Lion trumps Russ here
> 
> I'd also like to point out that Russ wasn't the only savage/aggressive-style primarch among the loyalists. The Khan was very savage too (I think the White Scars are known to be so ferocious in battle that the Imperium thinks its either a flaw in the geneseed or a result of the savage culture of Chogoris.
> 
> I'm sure Russ was highly intelligent, but Jonson has always been described as one of the best strategists/tacticians among the primarchs, in the same league as Horus and Alpharius...in that area I'm pretty certain he excels over Russ, plus he wasn't a slouch at fighting either, he managed to brawl Russ to a draw and then knocked wolf boy the @#!*% out with one punch (yes, a sucker-punch), but he wasn't a weakling like Lorgar, far from it


I just wonder about Jonson's state of being. Since when he awoke, despite being asleep 10,000 years, it would feel like Luther's betrayal happened yesterday. I wonder if he'd be in the emotional state of say the Khan, Russ, Vulkan, or Guilliman when he returned, or would he be in the useless hallowed out emotional shell of his former self like Corax was when he left?

That would make a huge difference for me if he would indeed be the best Primarch for the Imperium if he returned. 


Again, can't stand Guilliman, so I can't bring myself to vote for him even though he's probably the logical choice. 

Neither Vulkan nor the Khan had the dominating personalities like some of their brothers and therefore don't get my vote.

I fear Corax, and possibly Jonson, would be too troubled emotionally to be of any initial use. Even if Corax righted his emotional ship, I think he'd suffer from the same lack of dominating personality like Vulkan or the Khan. You really need someone who can grab everyone and pull them together.

That leaves Russ. 

Russ has a dominating persona, and what military minded person wouldn't want to fight at his side? He knows how to cut through the red tape and crap that has been so hindering to the Imperium, and would waste no time doing so. He would instill fear in the Imperium's enemies once again and thus restore hope to the average citizen that things might be turned right once again.

He would have... 

The favor of Mars as they would see a return to the glory days of weapons production they haven't seen since the great crusade. This would only serve to increase their prominence and stature within the Imperium.


The favor of the Astartes as he'd be the only remaining Primarch and would hearken them back to glory days gone by. I can't imagine them not all being enamored with him and longing to fight at his side in battle. The HH series really put into focus for me just how a normal Astartes views a Primarch...


The favor of the other branches of military, because he would bring them hope in the same way the famous generals of history brought their troops hope. There's just something about having someone lead you that you utterly believe in. Like Alexander, Napoleon, Hannibal, Salah ad Din, Julius Caesar, Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan, and Frederick the Great... I think Russ would be this kind of general.


The support of the people for the same reason as the military. Hope is a powerful tool. I imagine the sentiment would be something like, _"did you hear? Leman Russ is back! Now things will be set right!"_ Even if that's not immediately true, I think they would be drawn to feeling that. We all long for hope and positive change, and the citizens of the Imperium would be no different. 


Even (I think) the support of some of the High Lords of Terra. Many of them, like the head of the Officio Assassinorum, the Fabricator-General, the representative from the Inquisition, The Grand Provost Marshal of the Adeptus Arbites, the Lord Commanders Militant of the Imperial Guard and of the Segmentum Solar, the Lord High Admiral, and the representatives from the Adeptas Sororitas and Adeptas Custodes would connect well with Russ's martial standing, prowess, and focus.


I do think however, that many would oppose him... 

Those who would feel his wrath for their incompetence. Those who would stand to loose considerable power or authority. Those who worship the Emperor as god (and since that's most everybody -- including many on the list above, things could get messy).

I guess I would see it as a bloody affair at first. Definitely could result in a civil war. 

Where Guilliman would be pragmatic, Russ would shed blood. In the end though, those who opposed would be met with swift and terrible justice, or be forced to cow to the considerable military power that Russ would undoubtedly wield. 


In the end though, I think those who would oppose Russ would most likely oppose any Primarch that returned. Why? Because they would all, even Guilliman, disagree with the direction the Imperium's gone over the past 10,000 years.

In fact. Civil war might be unavoidable no matter which Primarch returned. 

Maybe only Guilliman could avoid it (but again, I hate him, and honor demands I not vote for him!  ). In the end (even for Guilliman though), it would come down to how committed the Primarch was to restoring the Imperium to where it should be, and how committed the opposition was to keeping power and maintaining things the way they are. 

If it did come down to civil war. Aside from Guilliman, who I know... yada, yada, has war and organization skills that are amazing...  who would you want leading the way? 

That's right...


*RUSS!!! *






.


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Uber Ork said:


> He knows how to cut through the red tape and crap that has been so hindering to the Imperium, and would waste no time doing so. ]


He would? Russ has shown no great political skills beyond any other Primarch and he lacks any kind of support base beyond his own chapter.



Uber Ork said:


> The favor of Mars as they would see a return to the glory days of weapons production they haven't seen since the great crusade. This would only serve to increase their prominence and stature within the Imperium.





Why would Russ's presence bring that? Russ holds no great knowledge of lost items nor is he somebody like Vulkan or Ferrus Mannus.



Uber Ork said:


> [*]The favor of the Astartes as he'd be the only remaining Primarch and would hearken them back to glory days gone by. I can't imagine them not all being enamored with him and longing to fight at his side in battle. The HH series really put into focus for me just how a normal Astartes views a Primarch...


Why would they follow him outside his chapter? Just because he's a Primarch does not mean he's there Primarch. Most Astartes probably won't rebel against the Imperium when most already have a good political position.

presence


Uber Ork said:


> [*]The support of the people for the same reason as the military. Hope is a powerful tool. I imagine the sentiment would be something like, _"did you hear? Leman Russ is back! Now things will be set right!"_ Even if that's not immediately true, I think they would be drawn to feeling that. We all long for hope and positive change.


Except they don't want to change. People in the Imperium are in general brainwashed and accustomed to status quo for the past several thousand years.



Uber Ork said:


> [*]Even (I think) the support of some of the High Lords of Terra. Many of them, like the head of the Officio Assassinorum, the Fabricator-General, the representative from the Inquisition, The Grand Provost Marshal of the Adeptus Arbites, the Lord Commanders Militant of the Imperial Guard and of the Segmentum Solar, the Lord High Admiral, and the representatives from the Adeptas Sororitas and Adeptas Custodes would connect well with Russ's martial standing, prowess, and focus.



Except the High Lords are already noted to have problems with the Wolves. If Russ came back and tried to make direct changes they would not support him.



Uber Ork said:


> Where Guilliman would be pragmatic, Russ would shed blood. In the end though, those who opposed would be met with swift and terrible justice, or be forced to cow to the considerable military power that Russ would undoubtedly wield.


Considerable military power? He has a single extra-large chapter with him, the rest of the Astartes following him is dubious and the guard owe their loyalty to the Imperium rather than Russ. Same with the Navy.
[/QUOTE]


----------



## demon bringer (Oct 14, 2008)

MontytheMighty said:


> I'm sure Russ was highly intelligent, but Jonson has always been described as one of the best strategists/tacticians among the primarchs, in the same league as Horus and Alpharius...in that area I'm pretty certain he excels over Russ, plus he wasn't a slouch at fighting either, he managed to brawl Russ to a draw and then knocked wolf boy the fuck out with one punch (yes, a sucker-punch), but he wasn't a weakling like Lorgar, far from it


the lion also broke rank and exposed the space wolves flank open to the enemy and lost the lives of alot of battle brothers just to get to an objective quicker. doesn't sound like great tactics to me


----------



## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

*Gree...* :laugh: I'm starting to wonder if you like me? :laugh:


Do you realize that out of the 7 posts you've added to this thread (four on 4-18-11, two on 4-19-11, and one [so far] today 4-21-11) that...


Once you quoted no one (your initial post where you vote Guilliman or Dorn)


Once you quoted and responded to *MEQinc* (because he asked you a direct question) with a grand total of one sentence.


And that every single other post has either been 100%, or the majority of, focused on quoting and responding to me.



In fact... to put it into perspective, I quoted and responded to you twice (both on 4-18-11), and you've quoted and responded to me twenty times...

- Five times over 2 different posts on 4-18-11

- Nine times over 2 different posts on 4-19-11

and

- Six times in your last post (today, 4-21-11)



Dude... what gives? I've never had some one quote and respond to me so much. :biggrin: :laugh: You've quoted and responded to me 10 times more than I have you!


20 times to me and only once to someone else... did you want to go out to coffee or something? :grin:




Anyway... I guess I'll indulge you since you've tried so hard to get a hold of my attention. 




Gree said:


> He would? Russ has shown no great political skills beyond any other Primarch and he lacks any kind of support base beyond his own chapter.


I didn't say he possessed great political skill. What others would do via the pen, he would do with the chainsword... or perhaps frostblade would be more appropriate. :biggrin: Reading the HH books has given me great appreciation for just how much the Primarch's were revered. There are many examples of marines from other chapters being very much in awe of the Primarch's from other Legions. If Russ did return, or any Primarch for that reason, all the Astartes would be drawn to them as the pinnacle from whence they came. Not only that, but he would be the closest link to the Emperor all loyal Astartes revere. 





Gree said:


> Why would Russ's presence bring that? Russ holds no great knowledge of lost items nor is he somebody like Vulkan or Ferrus Mannus.


As with your previous comment, I think you would be well served if you actually read what I was saying. I said nothing about Russ possessing political skills or achieving his goals through political means. In fact (if you read the whole post) I said several times, just the opposite.

Here once again, I said nothing about him possessing great knowledge of lost items and using that knowledge to impress the scions of Mars. What did I say... read it again and you'll see it as plain as day. 



Uber Ork said:


> The favor of Mars as they would see a return to the glory days of weapons production they haven't seen since the great crusade. This would only serve to increase their prominence and stature within the Imperium.



Russ is a warrior bar none. Russ would go to war on a massive scale. Massive war = massive production of munitions and war material. Massive production of munitions and war material = it would be Mars and the forge worlds they control getting it done.





Gree said:


> Why would they follow him outside his chapter? Just because he's a Primarch does not mean he's there Primarch. Most Astartes probably won't rebel against the Imperium when most already have a good political position.


They wouldn't see it as rebellion. They would see it as restoring things to as they should be. Russ is a direct link to the past. They would revere him (again, check out the HH books). Who are they going to believe about how the Imperium used to be, how the Emperor intended it to be. Some High Lord of Terra who's never talked to the Emperor, or his son who walked with him, talked with him, fought with him?





Gree said:


> Except they don't want to change. People in the Imperium are in general brainwashed and accustomed to status quo for the past several thousand years.


People always want change. The grass is greener on the other side of the fence as it were. The United States just went through this. Our president's slogan was all about change and people ate it up. They're not eating it up anymore because that change didn't go down like they thought, but he rode an enormous tide of optimism and hope into office. Why? Because people want things to be better than they are. It's just human nature. Are you really telling me you wouldn't enjoy a few more zeros in your income? Maybe a nice vacation to a place you'd like to visit? We always want and hope for something. 





Gree said:


> Except the High Lords are already noted to have problems with the Wolves. If Russ came back and tried to make direct changes they would not support him.


I said some would be drawn to his military focus and prowess, but I also said later on (here's where it helps to read the whole post again) that many would disagree with him and that his return (or possibly any primarch's return) would lead to bloodshed and quite possibly civil war. 

I mean... didn't you read that, or did you somehow miss it? If you missed it, read my previous post again I say very clearly that I think many would oppose him including the High Lords of Terra...





Gree said:


> Considerable military power? He has a single extra-large chapter with him, the rest of the Astartes following him is dubious and the guard owe their loyalty to the Imperium rather than Russ. Same with the Navy.


I talked, and gave examples of how the Astartes would be drawn to him, how the Imperial guard would experience hope in his generalship, etc. 

It's totally cool to disagree with me, but what are your theories? Tell me why the Astartes wouldn't reverie a primarch? I sited the HH books. What are your thoughts and proofs that they wouldn't follow him? They were designed to follow the primarchs as Generals. 

If 5 came back, maybe they'd have to make some decisions, as obviously you'd follow the one you're genetic stock is drawn from... but if only Russ came back? I think the evidence in the HH of how they reverie them would come into play. That's fine if you don't but tell me why?

As to following a general. Look at the examples I gave. Alexander... how far did his army follow him? All the way to India (on foot!) before they refused to go any further. Napoleon? Into Russia to their deaths. Hannibal? Across the treacherous Alps. Julius Caesar? To march on their very own capital. Genghis Khan? Etc. You don't think the military would love a figure like Russ returning? That's cool, but again, why? What's the basis for your argument?

That they're loyal to the Imperium? Think about it for a second. Being loyal to the Imperium is precisely *why* they would follow Russ.

The Astartes, the Guard, the Navy, etc. would all see (once he made clear the situation) that this isn't a move against the Imperium, but a move to restore it from what it's wrongfully become... to what it should have been all along. And who would know best, other than a man who walked and talked with the Emperor... one of his most loyal sons...

This is precisely why I was saying I think that any Primarch's return is likely to incite civil war. Again... you should go back and read my previous post as this is all in there... :grin:





.


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Uber Ork said:


> *Gree...* :laugh: I'm starting to wonder if you like me? :laugh:


No, I simply am refuting your points.



Uber Ork said:


> *Gree...* :laugh: I'm starting to wonder if you like me? :laugh:
> 
> 
> Do you realize that out of the 7 posts you've added to this thread (four on 4-18-11, two on 4-19-11, and one [so far] today 4-21-11) that...
> ...


All of that is utterly irrelevant. I see something erronous in your posts and I simply respond. I could care less about anything else. If I see something erronous in your future posts I will simply continue responding to you.



Uber Ork said:


> Anyway... I guess I'll indulge you since you've tried so hard to get a hold of my attention.


Incorrect. Wheter you choose to respond to me or not is entirely your descision. I don't care if you respond or not.



Uber Ork said:


> As with your previous comment, I think you would be well served if you actually read what I was saying.


I did.



Uber Ork said:


> I said nothing about Russ possessing political skills or achieving his goals through political means. In fact (if you read the whole post) I said several times, just the opposite.


Again I did, your point?



Uber Ork said:


> Russ is a warrior bar none. Russ would go to war on a massive scale. Massive war = massive production of munitions and war material. Massive production of munitions and war material = it would be Mars and the forge worlds they control getting it done.


Which is ridiculous considering the Imperium already is maxed out on it's production. Imperial Armour III was all about the Mechanicus not having enough resources to match it's quota incidentaly.

Oh, and Russ's skills as a warrior are irrelevant in terms of a strategic conflict. (If oyu are talking about person or even tactical skills) The Imperium is already waging war on a massive scale.



Uber Ork said:


> They wouldn't see it as rebellion. They would see it as restoring things to as they should be. Russ is a direct link to the past.


No, that's things they where ten thousand years ago. why would they desire to change into something when their their knowledge the system already works quite fine?



Uber Ork said:


> They would revere him (again, check out the HH books).


I have, and even in those books people have defied Primarchs before. The Lord Commander derided Alpharius in Legion. Loken, Tarvitz and the like defied their Primarchs. Ahirman deifed his Primarch. and so forth.

And these are people who had spent their entire military careers with the Primarchs and know them. It would be easy to simply paint Russ's return as a fake or have him as corrupted as part of a propaganda piece, especially with his current views.



Uber Ork said:


> Who are they going to believe about how the Imperium used to be, how the Emperor intended it to be. Some High Lord of Terra who's never talked to the Emperor, or his son who walked with him, talked with him, fought with him?


And why would they bother when to their knowledge everything is perfectly fine? Why would they listen to Russ when he claims the Emperor is not a god?



Uber Ork said:


> People always want change. The grass is greener on the other side of the fence as it were. The United States just went through this. Our president's slogan was all about change and people ate it up. They're not eating it up anymore because that change didn't go down like they thought, but he rode an enormous tide of optimism and hope into office. Why? Because people want things to be better than they are. It's just human nature. Are you really telling me you wouldn't enjoy a few more zeros in your income? Maybe a nice vacation to a place you'd like to visit? We always want and hope for something.


The Imperium is a facist dictatorship that makes the one form 1984 seem benevolent. Don't compare it to modern day US at all. People will simply have no need to change.

And why would they change? The average Imperial citizen to be a god that protects them and ensures their souls. And you are going to tell them that there is no god to protect them?

Gee, that's going to go over well.



Uber Ork said:


> I said some would be drawn to his military focus and prowess, but I also said later on (here's where it helps to read the whole post again) that many would disagree with him and that his return (or possibly any primarch's return) would lead to bloodshed and quite possibly civil war.
> 
> I mean... didn't you read that, or did you somehow miss it? If you missed it, read my previous post again I say very clearly that I think many would oppose him including the High Lords of Terra...


I have read your entire posts carefully. I simply choose to refute your point anyway. I choose to refute the your assertion that he would get a decent following.



Uber Ork said:


> I talked, and gave examples of how the Astartes would be drawn to him, how the Imperial guard would experience hope in his generalship, etc.


All of which are largely based an presumption. I can't see the Imperial Fists for example following Russ into rebellion against the High Lords as of 999 M41.



Uber Ork said:


> It's totally cool to disagree with me, but what are your theories? Tell me why the Astartes wouldn't reverie a primarch? I sited the HH books. What are your thoughts and proofs that they wouldn't follow him? They were designed to follow the primarchs as Generals.


No, they where designed to follow _their_ Primarch as a general. And even then they can ignore them. Look at Loken, Tarvitz and Garro who all ignored their Primarchs. Look at Ahirman ignoring Magnus and fighting for Prospero anyway. The Word Bearers show contempt for Guilliman, etc, etc.

I see no reason who Astartes would follow another Primarch simply because.



Uber Ork said:


> If 5 came back, maybe they'd have to make some decisions, as obviously you'd follow the one you're genetic stock is drawn from... but if only Russ came back? I think the evidence in the HH of how they reverie them would come into play. That's fine if you don't but tell me why?


I have seen no evidence that Astartes would so readily follow another Primarch into rebellion. From reading the Horus Heresy series I can see difficulties even with Astartes from one's own Legion. (Horus was Warmaster and even then had to convice the other Primarchs to follow him. The Astartes followed their Legions into rebellion largely because of the Primarch, not because of Horus). In fact an Imperial Army officer shows fear and distrust of the Wolves even in the 31st millenium, and that's including the Primarch.

If Guilliman came back and told the Wolves to adopt the Codex Astartes would they listen to him?



Uber Ork said:


> As to following a general. Look at the examples I gave. Alexander... how far did his army follow him? All the way to India (on foot!) before they refused to go any further. Napoleon? Into Russia to their deaths. Hannibal? Across the treacherous Alps. Julius Caesar? To march on their very own capital. Genghis Khan? Etc. You don't think the military would love a figure like Russ returning? That's cool, but again, why? What's the basis for your argument?


Not the same context. All of those where followed by armies that had fought alongside them personally. If Napoleon came back today in France the French sure as hell would not follow him into conquering Europe. The Italians would not follow Juilius Ceasar, etc, etc.

Frankly your examples are rather poor. The timeframe is completely different.



Uber Ork said:


> The Astartes, the Guard, the Navy, etc. would all see (once he made clear the situation) that this isn't a move against the Imperium, but a move to restore it from what it's wrongfully become... to what it should have been all along. And who would know best, other than a man who walked and talked with the Emperor... one of his most loyal sons...


I wonder how many rebels claim that they are doing it for the good of the Imperium. I wonder how many rebels justifed that. 

Sorry, your logic doesn't fly at all.

In fact, this Imperium, the ones they've always known, has worked fine from their point of view. Why should they follow Russ's claims? Especially if that Imperium fell in the Horus Heresy? Esepcially if much if it is highly heretical?

Russ is not going to be able to reverse the ''Emperor is a god'' thing. It has had ten thousand years to saturate the Imperium in every level. That alone would cause massive backlash against him, Primarch or no.



Uber Ork said:


> This is precisely why I was saying I think that any Primarch's return is likely to incite civil war. Again... you should go back and read my previous post as this is all in there... :grin:


I have read your posts carefully the first time. I stand by my position. My point was not so much as saying that you sais that Russ would encounter no opposition, but rather that he would have any real support of chance of sucess.


----------



## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

*@ Gree*

Umm... wow. 17 quotes and responses to me in your last post alone. That brings your grand total of people quoted and responded to on this thread to 38. One to *MEQinc* and 37 to me. Previously to my last post, I'd only responded to you twice. 

I mean you no disrespect, but this all feels a little weird to me. 

I think I'll move on from this thread at this point, lest things proceed onto a flame war.


Peace. :biggrin:


----------



## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Uber Ork said:


> *@ Gree*
> 
> Umm... wow. 17 quotes and responses to me in your last post alone. That brings your grand total of people quoted and responded to on this thread to 38. One to *MEQinc* and 37 to me. Previously to my last post, I'd only responded to you twice.


I fail to see how any of that matters in a debate. My personal posting style should have no impact on the arguments presented by both sides Such lengthy posts happen all the time in long debates. the amount of how many times I reply to you does not change my argument at all.

I'm suprised you consider it unusual.



Uber Ork said:


> I think I'll move on from this thread at this point, lest things proceed onto a flame war.


I have no intention of turning this into a flame war, nor do I understand why you think it is developing into one. We have had a reasoned discussion so far.


----------



## Maligant (Mar 27, 2011)

This is a very fascinating thread, and like the OP said, everyone has added their own scenarios, most of them add up and some are even thought provoking.

I'm not voting because I don't believe any one Primarch could really do much more than shake things up before shaking his own head in disgust at how stagnated/corrupt/dogmatic the system has become and saying: "You know what? Screw this, I'm going back into stasis/the warp/webway."

The Lion would be a good general, and the Unforgiven would probably flock to his banner, other than that I can't really see him doing much else, but I think stubborness would probably bring him to conflict with the High Council and other branches in the Imperium of M41, then I could see him crusading for a while with the Unforgiven, maybe around the Cadian Gate, or even creating another ultramar.

Guilliman would come back, have the support of the Ultramarines, many of their successor chapters, the population of Ultramar, and try to revamp the Imperium out of good intentions, but I really think that the centralised government of Terra is so corrupt that they would try and block him every step of the way right up to the point of the threat of civil war - a threat I believe would be made by the High Council.

Russ could be an enigmatic militray leader, though how many chapters would follow him is questionable as is the ammount of support he would get from the other institutions of the Imperium. The main big bonus I see from Russ' return, is that he is said to only return once he has found a way to save/restore the Emperor. With the Emperor could come the big, unquestionable shakeup of the Imperium and possibly a way to restore Guilliman, and the return of the Emperor could also cause the return of his other lost sons. However this depends whether or not this piece of fluff is still canon or whether Russ ever completes this quest.

I don't really know that much about Corax, Vulkan or the Khan to really know how they would effect the Imperium when they returned, other than their respective Chapters and successors going mental and performing something epic in their honour.

That's what i think anyway... and out of the three I would say Russ returning with a way to restore the Emperor (and only this reason) would probably be the best one.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Maligant said:


> I'm not voting because I don't believe any one Primarch could really do much more than shake things up before shaking his own head in disgust at how stagnated/corrupt/dogmatic the system has become and saying: "You know what? Screw this, I'm going back into stasis/the warp/webway."


Do you really think that if the surviving Primarchs were to materialize back home, they would readily abandon what has become of their father because of an empire that has become what it is *because *of their very absence and of the Emperors guiding hands that shaped the Imperium to begin with?

If so then Chaos didn't corrupt them and the Emperor messed up in their creation from day 1.


----------



## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

I do think it would be brilliant for all the primarchs (surviving) to smash down the High Lord of Terras chambers and get down to business.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

*@ Uber Ork*

fair point about Jonson's possible emotional state but I think he's not that likely to be an emotional shell. My reasons are:

1) Jonson's a very stubborn guy and stubbornness is a source of strength when things aren't going your way. Really stubborn individuals tend not to go all emo (*cough cough* Raven Guard *cough cough* Corax) 

2) Corax lost 90% of his legion at Istvaan and then (most crucially) created a horde of monstrosities by attempting an accelerated SM creation process. He then personally put them out of their misery because he was responsible for adopting the accelerated process. Afterward, you could say Corax was "incapacitated" by intense guilt, which left him an "emotional shell". 
Jonson on the other hand was betrayed by Luther and was badly injured in an epic duel. Luther had turned to chaos and shamed himself. Thus Luther is a gibbering wreck somewhere in the Rock, incapacitated by intense guilt. I'm sure the betrayal must have hurt Jonson but I don't think a primarch would be broken emotionally just because he was betrayed (though I could definitely see Jonson becoming even more paranoid). Anyway, becoming an emotional wreck just because you were on the receiving end of a betrayal is really weak in my opinion. 
I can only see a primarch becoming emotionally incapacitated if the primarch himself was responsible for a huge disaster or betrayal. Guilt is what the primarchs seem to be more vulnerable to. In addition to Corax, Fulgrim would be another example of guilt-ridden primarch:


> During the infamous Drop Site Massacre, Fulgim and Ferrus Manus met once again, and had their final and fateful duel. Fulgrim proved the victor, but discovered he could not bring himself to kill his brother. It was at this point that the daemon bound within the Laeran blade fully exerted itself, and Ferrus Manus was struck dead. Fulgrim was shocked into clear-thinking by the death of his brother, aghast at what he had done and at the horrific betrayal and carnage around him. In a further moment of weakness he agreed to the daemon's offer to send him to oblivion






As for whether the primarchs would abandon the Imperium upon seeing how dogmatic and corrupt it has become, I think good points are raised either way 
You'd think a primarch would take some responsibility for being absent for 10,000 years, but then several of them did decide to fuck off into the warp/webway when the Imperium really needed them.


----------



## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

I'm still not really convinced that the Lion would be particularly useful. His paranoia and incapacity to trust (as percieived by myself) means that unless the imperium was under his control and his alone he wouldn't be able to do anything of great use.

Plus once he learned that the unforgiven were still scattered amongst the galaxy i honestly think he would be quite content chasing them with his chapter and purging any taint.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

demonictalkin56 said:


> I'm still not really convinced that the Lion would be particularly useful. His paranoia and incapacity to trust (as percieived by myself) means that unless the imperium was under his control and his alone he wouldn't be able to do anything of great use.
> 
> Plus once he learned that the unforgiven were still scattered amongst the galaxy i honestly think he would be quite content chasing them with his chapter and purging any taint.


fair point, his "usefulness" might depend on whether he can get over his trust issues...in some ways, he's essentially a less insane/brutal, more calculating Curze


----------



## Maligant (Mar 27, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Do you really think that if the surviving Primarchs were to materialize back home, they would readily abandon what has become of their father because of an empire that has become what it is *because *of their very absence and of the Emperors guiding hands that shaped the Imperium to begin with?
> 
> If so then Chaos didn't corrupt them and the Emperor messed up in their creation from day 1.


No, I'm saying that if a SINGLE remaining loyalist Primarch returned they wouldn't be able to accomplish much. All together, sure why the hell not? There would be opposition but they would have so much colletive clout they could at least threaten a coup d'etat and, possibly, rule in the way the Emperor envisioned, lead by Guilliman and the others acting in various other capcities - Russ and the Lion as generals, Corax, and maybe the Khan, with the Inquisition, and Vulcan with Mechanicum.

Whether it was because of their absense or not doesn't really matter one bit. What I'm saying is I don't believe the High Council would LET them change the way the Imperium works because, to me, any attempts to change the status quo have been met with accusations of heresy/high treason, and quite frankly I don't think the Council would care whether they accused a Primarch or not, if he was singled out and alone.

Edit: Who's to say the Emepror *didn't* mess up? He himself claims to be just a man - and all men are fallible. His ininitial handling of the Horus Heresy is proof that he could, and did, make mistakes. There's also new evidense beginning to creep into the fluff that he did conspire with the ruinious powers, however that has yet to be resolved fully.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

*FOLLOW-UP QUESTION: do you guys thing it would actually be a good idea for a primarch/primarchs to return...that is, would it be a good idea for GW/BL to advance the fluff in this manner? would it be a breath of fresh air, or would it result in the fluff becoming not grimdark enough?*


----------



## 13illfred (Jun 23, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> *FOLLOW-UP QUESTION: do you guys thing it would actually be a good idea for a primarch/primarchs to return...that is, would it be a good idea for GW/BL to advance the fluff in this manner? would it be a breath of fresh air, or would it result in the fluff becoming not grimdark enough?*


hmm i was about to start a thread about something similar, but now I may aswell post my opinion here. Regarding the return of a primarch/the primarchs, would it actually be of benefit to the imperium at all? 

Using Roboute Guilliman as an example as he is largely responsible for the saving of the imperium post heresy and a great deal of the astartes are derived fom his gene-seed and as a result i believe he would be held in the greatest respect of all primarchs by the rest of the imperium.

My argument is that his return would infact hinder the imperium, largely due to the ecclesiarchy. Having not read any of the horus heresy series i may be wrong, but it is my udnerstanding that the emperor did not like the idea of humanity worshiping him as a god, and therefore this would follow through in msot of the primarchs. While i do not believe that Guilliman would get into direct conflict with the ecclesiarchy despite his own beliefs, for the good of the imperium, surely he would not be on friendly terms with them. Given the power of the church, coupled with the greed of those in powerful positions who could stand to loose them, the primarch would have many powerful enemies. 
This carries on to the astartes, would they really follow someone who does not regard the emporor as a god when they are taught to do so with every fibre of their being? As such, the only situation in which a primarch would be able to gain enough power within the hierarchy of the imperium to make a significant impact on the galaxy would be in the direst of times when man stands on the brink of utter destruction, and from such a position I do not see one or even all of the living primarchs to be able to reconquer a galaxy.

just my ponderings


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Can you say idiotic civil war, I know you could.


----------



## Iraqiel (May 21, 2008)

Can someone reference the 'Dorn is a skeleton' opinion? Last I heard, the only trace of him was one of his Gauntlets being recovered from a space hulk and enshrined in the fortress monastery space station that the Imperial Fists cruise around in.

Also. It would be a good idea for GW to advance the fluff to the stage that Angron returned, so that he could kick some arse proper this time, not just have his teeth handed to him on Armageddon!


----------



## Scholtae (Aug 16, 2010)

actualy the astartes in general do not worship the emperor as a god they have their own semi-ancestor worship style of religion. To be honest the primarch who's return would benefit the imperium the most would in my opinion be Vulkan pureley because he seems to understand the common man and woman the best out of his brothers. In short he would be far easier for ordinary humans to deal with than Gulliman who despite his already mentioned organisational genius was noted for his lack of emotional response to other humans. Vulkan would also find it easier to deal with the mechanicus than Gulliman; it is readily accepted that without the mechanicus the imperium couldn't function so if he can get them onside then he has already have one half the diplomatic battle and the high lords (of whom the fabricator general is one) would have to swallow anything he sent their way with as good a grace as they could muster. I also think that vulkan would be more accepting of the ecclesiarchy than say Gulliman on account of his founding of the promethean cult within his own legion.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

13illfred said:


> This carries on to the astartes, would they really follow someone who does not regard the emporor as a god when they are taught to do so with every fibre of their being? As such, the only situation in which a primarch would be able to gain enough power within the hierarchy of the imperium to make a significant impact on the galaxy would be in the direst of times when man stands on the brink of utter destruction, and from such a position I do not see one or even all of the living primarchs to be able to reconquer a galaxy.


actually the Astartes do not worship the Emperor as a god, and the church lets them be

the Astartes venerate the emperor as the greatest, mightiest man who ever lived



Iraqiel said:


> Can someone reference the 'Dorn is a skeleton' opinion?


it's in Lexicanum's article on Dorn, cited from Ian Watson's Space Marine I believe, not sure if it's still canon
but Dorn is probably dead as a doornail either way



Scholtae said:


> Vulkan would also find it easier to deal with the mechanicus than Gulliman; it is readily accepted that without the mechanicus the imperium couldn't function so if he can get them onside then he has already have one half the diplomatic battle and the high lords (of whom the fabricator general is one) would have to swallow anything he sent their way with as good a grace as they could muster.


interesting point, cool


----------



## Scholtae (Aug 16, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> actually the Astartes do not worship the Emperor as a god,


Snap hehehe.


----------



## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

djinn24 said:


> Russ, because they don't need a book style leader right now, they need a grab em by the balls in scream in your face.


right. so WHY THE F*** DIDNT YOU PUT SANGUINEOUS ON THERE??? I dont care if hes dead if were looking for miracles have the emperor bring him back. If the imperium could harness the power of the BA and control the thirst, they would be an unstopable force. SO ADD SANGUINEOUS TO THE LIST hes easily the best

but after the guilliman, we need organization and his gauntlets are awesome

*EDIT* I know hes dead but as long as were talking about miracles... couldnt his spirit be transfered to another body, which would then become a physical manifestation of him? Like in BA omnibus but not with chaos, for real, and sanguineous takes over the body completely and turns it into his own. Preferably done voluntarily by the host, but whatever


----------

