# Slaanesh vs Tzeentch Chariot Heralds



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey guys.

I'm comparing the Tzeentch and Slaanesh Heralds and honestly cannot see how the Tzeentch one is always recommended and the Slaanesh one is ignored.

Lets compare the two, and obviously have them both on Chariots.


Tzeentch Herald

The 'standard' set-up for this Herald is: Master of Sorcery, We Are Legion and Bolt of Tzeentch for a total of 110pts

For 110pts you get: Jetbike Movement, Furious Charge, a 4++ Save, Daemonic Gaze, Bolt of Tzeentch, the ability to fire both in one turn, and the ability to shoot at two different targets and with a BS of 4.


*Slaanesh Herald on Chariot*

My favourite set-up is: Soporific Musk, Unholy Might AND Daemonic Gaze for a total of 105pts

So for 5pts less we get: Cavalry Movement, Furious Charge, a 4+ Armour Save, Rending, Fleet, Hit and Run, +1 Strength, +2 Attacks, +3 WS AND Daemonic Gaze, albiet at -1 BS.


*Conclusion*

For 5pts less you get a model that is better in close combat by a large amount, has only a slightly worse save, better strength, Fleet, the ability to zoom in and out of combat, can hunt tanks as it is striking at rear armour with a Strength of 5 on the Charge, with 7 Attacks and the ability to rend. 

Finally it also posseses one of the same shooting attacks albiet at 1 less BS, but Tzeentch BS of 4 is no guarntee either copared with the more elite BS5.

So what am I missing folks? Clearly Slaanesh is just as fast, only slightly less survivable, better in CC, can hunt tanks more reliably and can do more damage overall for a cost of 5pts LESS.

Why is Tzeentch always touted as being the best?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

When you put it that way its becuase certain people on these threads like to think only a Handful of unit are better than others, post forums and tatics on it, and BAM this is what all Copy and Paste List should consist of. I would never use Heralds myself As I love the KOS and BT but it sounds better than the Tzeetch one in CC effectivness.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Main reason tzeentch is taken is for the RANGED anti tank, which deamons are otherwise lacking

You still have to reach out to assault the vehicle with slaanesh, and if that tank moved you'll struggle to hit it. The jetbike move is also a massive advantage, as you can ignore terrain, stay in cover and jump out to strike vehicle side armour, without the need of getting mobbed by the supporting infantry who will be near the tank. Hit and run won't be enough and your herald will turn into a suicide bomb, screamers would be then better.

btw i don't think you can post stats. esp with the points cost


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Barnster said:


> Main reason tzeentch is taken is for the RANGED anti tank, which deamons are otherwise lacking
> 
> You still have to reach out to assault the vehicle with slaanesh, and if that tank moved you'll struggle to hit it. The jetbike move is also a massive advantage, as you can ignore terrain, stay in cover and jump out to strike vehicle side armour, without the need of getting mobbed by the supporting infantry who will be near the tank. Hit and run won't be enough and your herald will turn into a suicide bomb, screamers would be then better.
> 
> btw i don't think you can post stats. esp with the points cost


Firstly, your allowed to post points costs if its the total, rather than the individual points and the stats I posted are available for free on GW website.

As for your answer; the problem is that the RANGED support of a Tzeentch sorcerer is quite crap as BS 4 means its only hitting 2/3 of the time and it only has one Strength 8 shot, so its not exactly powerful. Also, at best it takes out 3 Marines a turn with Gaze, but it averages only 1.5 AND the Slaanesh Herald can have the same power.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

The Jetbike is useful, but 1 shot at a Vehicle like LRBT with Front AV 14 or a Slaneesh with 7 Attacks hitting on 4s or Auto hit (Depending if it move to fire 2 weapons or not at all to fire all) at S 4 with Rending on Rear Armour 10. I take the Latter more so than the former.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

D-A-C said:


> *Conclusion*
> 
> For 5pts less you get a model that is better in close combat by a large amount, has only a slightly worse save, better strength, Fleet, the ability to zoom in and out of combat, can hunt tanks as it is striking at rear armour with a Strength of 5 on the Charge, with 7 Attacks and the ability to rend.


Better in close combat, but Daemons don't need help in the close combat department - the entire army excels at eating infantry alive in the assault phase. What Daemons lack is realistic ranged anti-tank firepower, something that Tzeentchian Heralds give for quite cheap. Chasing after tanks and trying to punch them to death really isn't very effective and other units are better at it than the Slaaneshi Herald, like Fiends (on that note, Fiends do pretty much the same stuff as a Slaaneshi Herald does, but don't use an HQ slot and you can get three of them for less points than a Herald).



> Finally it also posseses one of the same shooting attacks albiet at 1 less BS, but Tzeentch BS of 4 is no guarntee either copared with the more elite BS5.


Why do we care about shooting infantry? The entire Daemon army is fantastic at annihilating them. There are few cases where I'd rather shoot Daemonic Gaze compared to making a Run move so that I can charge further. Also, saying BS4 is no guarantee compared to BS5 is sort of a silly thing to say considering that BS5 is available only on extremely expensive Lords of Change.



> So what am I missing folks? Clearly Slaanesh is just as fast, only slightly less survivable, better in CC, can hunt tanks more reliably and can do more damage overall for a cost of 5pts LESS.


Almost as fast, since Slaaneshi Heralds need to charge or roll a 6 to keep up with a jetbike, hunts tanks less reliably because it has to get close and will hit on 6s against players that know what they're doing and does less for the army overall, for 5 points less. _That_ is why Tzeentchian Heralds are said to be better.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> Better in close combat, but Daemons don't need help in the close combat department - the entire army excels at eating infantry alive in the assault phase. What Daemons lack is realistic ranged anti-tank firepower, something that Tzeentchian Heralds give for quite cheap. Chasing after tanks and trying to punch them to death really isn't very effective and other units are better at it than the Slaaneshi Herald, like Fiends (on that note, Fiends do pretty much the same stuff as a Slaaneshi Herald does, but don't use an HQ slot and you can get three of them for less points than a Herald).
> 
> Why do we care about shooting infantry? The entire Daemon army is fantastic at annihilating them. There are few cases where I'd rather shoot Daemonic Gaze compared to making a Run move so that I can charge further. Also, saying BS4 is no guarantee compared to BS5 is sort of a silly thing to say considering that BS5 is available only on extremely expensive Lords of Change. (And Daemon Princes)
> 
> Almost as fast, since Slaaneshi Heralds need to charge or roll a 6 to keep up with a jetbike, hunts tanks less reliably because it has to get close and will hit on 6s against players that know what they're doing and does less for the army overall, for 5 points less. _That_ is why Tzeentchian Heralds are said to be better.


So essentially what your saying is that your paying 110pts for the privilege of having Bolt of Tzeentch, a not that great Strength 8 one shot power, on a mobile platform?

Also, how is anyone worth their salt going to make you hit on a 6? Go ahead and move your tank full distance and don't fire at me, thats exactly what I want.

Whats more realistic is that a competant player will make sure that only the AV14/13/12 is looking at the Tzeentch Herald (a much easier task) and then will laugh as you have a 2/3 chance of hitting, at best 1/3 chance of penetrating and then another 1/3 chance of getting a Kaboom!!!

Why not spend 95pts on Pink Horrors? Same number of Wounds, can be used like a Termicide Squad, and can capture objectives? That's what I do when I want to shoot tanks/transports.

You say they lack long ranged anti-tank firepower, and I say, who the hell needs it? Deeptrike pink horrors close, or have Seekers/Hounds/Chariots/Daemon Princes go armour hunting. Heck, my 5 Juggernauts might be slow, but they grind forward and usually kill a vehicle just because of the sheer amount of space they take up on the board when you factor in terrain.

Maybe, just maybe, this is a larger points game problem. My regular games are 1000pts and 1500pts (our 'competitive' game), I've never encountered an army with too much mech to handle. 

The worst army I ever face is an Imperial Guard meched to the hilt with Leman Russ, Sentinels, Chimeras and a flying thing containing veterans. 

Now, don't quote me as its been about 2 months since I last played him, but, as far as I remember it, his side armour was 13 and 12 most of the time, and thats why my Hounds and Seekers always had such a good time, because they ignored that armour and got straight to the juicy rear armour, even in head-on charges. So I mean, what good would 2-4 Strength 8 Shots at BS 4 be against that?

Also, as far as I can see, the advice to take a Tzeentch Herald becomes redundant at 1000pts as how much armour could your opponent possibly have that an extra 1/2 Long Range Shots beats out a more reliable 7 Strength 5 Charging Attacks with Rending?

Its seems to be that Tzeentch's main benifit is he has an (allegedly) easier time getting to the target, but if the Slaanesh Chariot can get there, it is so much more reliable at causing damage.

But, my other question is, how are you deepstriking? 

It would seem that you can't be risking a Tzeentch Herald in the same way I use my Pink Horrors, i.e. dropping them aggressively behind armour and scatter be damned.

Whereas the Slaanesh Chariot is like a heat seeking missile, you drop it behind cover a safe distance and then watch the next Turn as it cruises towards a juicy target at top speed. It might take alot of flak on the way in, but if it makes it through, your almost guaranteed a kill and if it doesn't, think of the flak that is being diverted from the rest of your army.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I can see where Shoot and Scoot seems awsome compared to Slaneeshi hit and Rend. I perfer hitting Rear AV with 7 attacks and Rend than 1 S8 on Front or Side. 

More importantly I perfer a KoS with UM or BT with UM to either option.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Anyone who doesn't move tanks when faces in rushing daemons is a bit of a fool. Seriously try to catch tau and elder tanks they should be darting to avoid any cc, 

As far as guard their russes should always be moving due to the behemoth rule

The tzeentch herald can drop further away than slaanesh herald and still be effective. 

I also don't think the slaanesh herald is as reliable as you think ask unless you rend it's wasted, without even scratching the paint on the tank

Personally I think the tzeentch herald adds much needed flexibility to the daemon army

The tzeentch herald is in a much safer place to take out dreadnoughts as well, which can otherwise tar it your incoming units fairly easy


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Barnster said:


> Anyone who doesn't move tanks when faces in rushing daemons is a bit of a fool. Seriously try to catch tau and elder tanks they should be darting to avoid any cc,
> 
> As far as guard their russes should always be moving due to the behemoth rule
> 
> ...


Slannesh Heralds have hit and run and have a slight chance at destroying a Dreadnought on the Charge. So they can charge, get out of the combat and run or recharge. Also, they are fast enough to avoid it unless cornered.

That's exactly what my other point is. People always seem to forget that their is terrain on the board. You don't always have clear lines for shooting at a distance at certain 'safe' angles and you can use terrain to 'trap' an enemy model, by denying it space to manouver. Thats how I use my Juggernauts alot of the time, simply deny my opponent the space to move through me.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

D-A-C said:


> So essentially what your saying is that your paying 110pts for the privilege of having Bolt of Tzeentch, a not that great Strength 8 one shot power, on a mobile platform?


It's not a fantastic power, but it's the best Daemons have. BS4 is pretty good (not fantastic, but good). Being mobile is really helpful as it becomes possible to get side armor shots.



> Also, how is anyone worth their salt going to make you hit on a 6? Go ahead and move your tank full distance and don't fire at me, thats exactly what I want.


By moving 6.1" in their movement phase. Sure, they lose shooting for a single turn, but you assault them with a Herald, fail to do anything and them immediately lose the Herald to shooting.


> Whats more realistic is that a competant player will make sure that only the AV14/13/12 is looking at the Tzeentch Herald (a much easier task) and then will laugh as you have a 2/3 chance of hitting, at best 1/3 chance of penetrating and then another 1/3 chance of getting a Kaboom!!!


They can do that, yup. But it becomes harder to do so against a model that can move like a jetbike. A lot easier than an infantry model, at least. Also, it's not usually the best idea to fire Bolts at heavy tanks. Generally I'll fire away with them at things like Rhinos and let Fiends hunt the heavier things.

Oh and Bolt is AP1, which helps a considerable amount on the damage roll.



> Why not spend 95pts on Pink Horrors? Same number of Wounds, can be used like a Termicide Squad, and can capture objectives? That's what I do when I want to shoot tanks/transports.


I use Horrors too, but I definitely don't take them for Bolt. BS3 is garbage, I wouldn't rely on it for my tank busting.



> You say they lack long ranged anti-tank firepower, and I say, who the hell needs it? Deeptrike pink horrors close, or have Seekers/Hounds/Chariots/Daemon Princes go armour hunting. Heck, my 5 Juggernauts might be slow, but they grind forward and usually kill a vehicle just because of the sheer amount of space they take up on the board when you factor in terrain.


Armies need ranged anti-tank firepower in 5th. If you don't understand that, I don't know what more to say. These suggestions... they aren't going to work, I'm really at a loss as for how to explain it. Relying on Horrors to do your ranged anti-tank is simply a awful for its points, you'd never accomplish anything that way. You can armor hunt with those units yes (and you need to since Bolts alone will never do the job), it just sucks that it's necessary to do so since it's so rarely effective. 



> Maybe, just maybe, this is a larger points game problem. My regular games are 1000pts and 1500pts (our 'competitive' game), I've never encountered an army with too much mech to handle.


It has tons to do with the smaller size of the games you play, of course. Many armies can't reach their full potential at 1K or even 1.5K.


> The worst army I ever face is an Imperial Guard meched to the hilt with Leman Russ, Sentinels, Chimeras and a flying thing containing veterans.


Yeah, this is an issue. You're talking about local metagame, I'm talking about the global competitive scene. What works in your group does not necessarily work somewhere else. I'm not sure if you play in other groups from time to time. If not, the first time you do will probably be a huge shock.



> Now, don't quote me as its been about 2 months since I last played him, but, as far as I remember it, his side armour was 13 and 12 most of the time, and thats why my Hounds and Seekers always had such a good time, because they ignored that armour and got straight to the juicy rear armour, even in head-on charges. So I mean, what good would 2-4 Strength 8 Shots at BS 4 be against that?


It depends very much on what vehicles we're talking about. You mentioned Leman Russ which have high AV, so Bolt isn't so great against those. But against Chimeras, Sentinels and Valkyries/Vendettas you'll find Bolts are quite a bit more useful since they don't have such a high AV. Chimeras have large side armor arcs and are only AV10 there, so Bolt can be deadly. Vendettas have AV12, but considering how fast they are Bolt is really handy in slowing them down or stopping them from shooting since they're so much harder to catch.



> Also, as far as I can see, the advice to take a Tzeentch Herald becomes redundant at 1000pts as how much armour could your opponent possibly have that an extra 1/2 Long Range Shots beats out a more reliable 7 Strength 5 Charging Attacks with Rending?


It's not more reliable. I'm actually gonna do the math.

Slaaneshi Herald charging a vehicle with AV10 on the rear:

Chance of atleast 1
Shak : 12.265%
Stun : 6.304%
Weap : 6.304%
Immo : 6.304%
Wrec : 3.196%
Expl : 3.196% 

Tzeentchian Herald shooting vehicles with AV10-14:


AV10
Chance of atleast 1
Shak : 1.852%
Stun : 1.852%
Weap : 9.259%
Immo : 9.259%
Wrec : 9.259%
Expl : 24.074%

AV11
Chance of atleast 1
Shak : 1.852%
Stun : 1.852%
Weap : 7.407%
Immo : 7.407%
Wrec : 7.407%
Expl : 18.519%

AV12
Chance of atleast 1
Shak : 1.852%
Stun : 1.852%
Weap : 5.556%
Immo : 5.556%
Wrec : 5.556%
Expl : 12.963%

AV13
Chance of atleast 1
Shak : 1.852%
Stun : 1.852%
Weap : 3.704%
Immo : 3.704%
Wrec : 3.704%
Expl : 7.407% 

AV14
Chance of atleast 1
Shak : 1.852%
Stun : 1.852%
Weap : 1.852%
Immo : 1.852%
Wrec : 1.852%
Expl : 1.852%

So we can see that the Bolt has a better chance against all armor values except AV14, so a Slaaneshi Herald would be better at taking out a Leman Russ, but worse against everything else.



> Its seems to be that Tzeentch's main benifit is he has an (allegedly) easier time getting to the target, but if the Slaanesh Chariot can get there, it is so much more reliable at causing damage.


^ See math above.



> But, my other question is, how are you deepstriking?
> 
> It would seem that you can't be risking a Tzeentch Herald in the same way I use my Pink Horrors, i.e. dropping them aggressively behind armour and scatter be damned.


Not like that. There are times when that's a good idea, but generally throwing away units by putting them in incredibly risky places is a bad idea.



> Whereas the Slaanesh Chariot is like a heat seeking missile, you drop it behind cover a safe distance and then watch the next Turn as it cruises towards a juicy target at top speed. It might take alot of flak on the way in, but if it makes it through, your almost guaranteed a kill and if it doesn't, think of the flak that is being diverted from the rest of your army.


If it does make it through, chances are it'll do very little, again, see the math.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Damn she Math Hammered it to prove a point :laugh:


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## BozlyLittle (Jul 3, 2011)

slaanesh vs. tzeench is no question their two completely different units if you assault with pink horrors your stupid the question is slaanesh vs. khorne now that's a fight. and an argument to yell over


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Warlock in Training said:


> Damn she Math Hammered it to prove a point :laugh:


I didn't have a choice. There's no other way to prove that charging at fast moving tanks with a Herald has less chance of destroying them than a Bolt. I can say it all I want, but if I don't prove it somehow then it's meaningless and we can just go back and forth saying the opposite forever.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

BozlyLittle said:


> slaanesh vs. tzeench is no question their two completely different units if you assault with pink horrors your stupid the question is slaanesh vs. khorne now that's a fight. and an argument to yell over


Its actually not that close to be honest. 

Khorne has the advantage of better Strength, Toughness, Save and Power Weapon as standard. So it should be no contest right? Wrong.

As a long term player of Chariot of Khorne, I can tell you for a fact ... they are slow ... I mean ... really slow, you see its on a chariot, but you watch as your daemonettes (on foot!) glide past him and laugh. 

If you then decide to put him on a juggernaut ... congratulations, you've just spent enough for 3 Bloodcrushers on 1, slightly better one.

I've yet to give my Slaanesh Herald a whirl, but to be honest I'd rather take either a Slaanesh or Tzeentch Herald or even a Greater Daemon. 

My Khorne Chariot Herald has never been friendly towards me ... bastard lol.



Katie Drake said:


> I didn't have a choice. There's no other way to prove that charging at fast moving tanks with a Herald has less chance of destroying them than a Bolt. I can say it all I want, but if I don't prove it somehow then it's meaningless and we can just go back and forth saying the opposite forever.


Right ... I know your going to throw up your hands and say I'm stubborn and can't be made to change my mindset. So let me say that that is not the case.

However ...

Your mathhammer might (supposedly) prove that Tzeentch Heralds are better at taking out all but the heaviest mech.

But ...

My counter to your math skills is my stubborn logic. 

It seems to me that your argument in favour of Tzeentch is taking place in a vacum of math, and forgetting the cold and harsh reality of the tabletop. 

I looked up the Armour of Russ' and Hammerhead's (my two main 'mech' army main tanks) and found their armour to be F14 S13 R11 and F13 S12 R10.

Now, a Tzeentch Herald will have a hard time seeing that juicy rear armour if the opponent is anyway competant, and as was rightly pointed out, both these can move AND shoot, meaning that the Slaanesh Herald will struggle as well.

So lets work this out with logic, as opposed to math.

The Tzeentch Herald has ONE CHANCE for everything to go right. It has one chance to hit, one chance to wound and one chance to blow up the enemy.

The Slaanesh Herald has SEVEN CHANCES for something to go right. 

'Statistically' hitting on a 6+ with seven chances is not great odds (roughly average 1.185) but when your actually on the tabletop, things are totally different.

The Slannesh Herald ALWAYS hits that softer rear armour, whilst the Tzeentch Herald has to try and hunt for access to it in its line of sight. Like I said, the Slannesh Herald is a heat seeking missile.

Now, you might argue that the longer range is an advantage to the Tzeentch Herald and that Slaanesh will get shot to pieces, but don't forget that the Slaanesh Herald can enter into a combat (to avoid being shot at) and then leave the combat in time to resume the charge at the beginning of the next Turn.

Finally, the Tzeentch Herald has ONE JOB, it shoots Mech with 1 shot each round and flings threes shots at any infantry within range as a bonus.

Slaanesh Heralds can hunt armour AND be good in CC. Against unmeched armies, Tzeentch is redundant, and whilst 'most' armies are mech, some aren't. 

I feel that there isn't that much of a tactical advantage in having a Tzeentch one shot, one hit wonder, rather than a Slaanesh multi-tasking, only slightly inferior mech, much better infantry hunter.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

You clearly believe deep down that your Slaanesh Heralds are better than Tzeentch ones, you are wrong but we are not going to convince you otherwise so carry. You do this with all your thread, come in with a preconceived notion posed ostensibly as a question but then get all defensive when people answer your question. Save everyones time, play the units you want to play and get over it.

The one massive thing you consistently miss when complaining about the Tzeentch Herald is that he breaks tanks in the Shooting Phase, not the Assault Phase. That is huge.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> You clearly believe deep down that your Slaanesh Heralds are better than Tzeentch ones, you are wrong but we are not going to convince you otherwise so carry. You do this with all your thread, come in with a preconceived notion posed ostensibly as a question but then get all defensive when people answer your question. Save everyones time, play the units you want to play and get over it.
> 
> The one massive thing you consistently miss when complaining about the Tzeentch Herald is that he breaks tanks in the Shooting Phase, not the Assault Phase. That is huge.


Of course I come in with a pre-concieved notion, thats how these threads begin for me.

What I lack is competitive experience outside of my gaming group, thats why I post these topics, because as I build up my army with the proper and painted models I want to make sure I'm not spending money on something which isn't that great (and which I have no interest in taking regardless, due to fluff).

My HQ is a serious source of frustration as I used to just use a Khorne Herald on a Chariot or sometimes on a Juggernaut, but then I realised he just wasn't that good for the points I was spending on him.

He was too expensive on a juggernaut (I could just by more crushers) and on his own, despite being toughish and killy, he was too slow and the straw that broke the camels back was people on here offering viable alternatives.

But, I still don't think that the ability to fire 1 Strength 8 AP1 and 3 Strength 5 AP3 shots is worth 110pts compared to the Slaanesh Chariot and am trying to understand the slobbering love affair people have with them, taking as many as four of these in their lists.

Finally, as I said, the Slaanesh Herald CAN TAKE Daemonic Gaze and still come out cheaper, so really all those points are being sunck into that 1 Shot, which as I argued, might be statistically more reliable, but on the tabletop is likely to fail to hit or penetrate at least 3 out of 6 turns, so you actually need more than one tzeentch Herald to be effective, so thats even more points.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

The one massive thing you consistently miss when complaining about the Tzeentch Herald is that he breaks tanks in the Shooting Phase, not the Assault Phase. That is huge.

If you're breaking things in the Assault Phase then Fiends will do it even better than Herald.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

D-A-C said:


> Right ... I know your going to throw up your hands and say I'm stubborn and can't be made to change my mindset. So let me say that that is not the case.


Saying that it isn't the case doesn't make it untrue. 



> It seems to me that your argument in favour of Tzeentch is taking place in a vacum of math, and forgetting the cold and harsh reality of the tabletop.


I can see why people would think that and all I can really respond with is that I've been playing 40K for ten years and have an awful lot of tabletop experience in that time. Do I have the most experience of everyone on Heresy? No. But I think we can both agree that ten years is a fair amount of experience to fall back on, so the chances of me forgetting how things actually work on the tabletop are pretty low.



> I looked up the Armour of Russ' and Hammerhead's (my two main 'mech' army main tanks) and found their armour to be F14 S13 R11 and F13 S12 R10.
> 
> Now, a Tzeentch Herald will have a hard time seeing that juicy rear armour if the opponent is anyway competant, and as was rightly pointed out, both these can move AND shoot, meaning that the Slaanesh Herald will struggle as well.


I mentioned already that Bolt isn't the best answer against heavy tanks and that Fiends are the better unit against those.



> So lets work this out with logic, as opposed to math.
> 
> The Tzeentch Herald has ONE CHANCE for everything to go right. It has one chance to hit, one chance to wound and one chance to blow up the enemy.
> 
> ...


One chance that I've mathematically proven is more likely to destroy vehicles than the Slaaneshi Herald's seven chances. Things aren't totally different on the tabletop, averages don't stop applying while you play a game. Sure, dice can do random things. You could charge, hit six times and penetrate five, but that doesn't mean that you should be banking on having that sort of luck.



> The Slannesh Herald ALWAYS hits that softer rear armour, whilst the Tzeentch Herald has to try and hunt for access to it in its line of sight. Like I said, the Slannesh Herald is a heat seeking missile.


I didn't suggest that a Tzeentchian Herald should gun for back armor, that would be sort of silly since no competent opponent would let it happen. Instead you go for side armor shots if possible, or fire at the front.

Also, again, I proved that a Bolt is better even against the higher AVs than the Slaaneshi Herald is against the lowest AV in the game.



> Finally, the Tzeentch Herald has ONE JOB, it shoots Mech with 1 shot each round and flings threes shots at any infantry within range as a bonus.
> 
> Slaanesh Heralds can hunt armour AND be good in CC. Against unmeched armies, Tzeentch is redundant, and whilst 'most' armies are mech, some aren't.


One job, which he happens to be quite good at for his points and is a job that other units in the army struggle with considerably.

A Slaaneshi Herald can hunt armor (poorly) and fight in close combat against infantry, exactly like every other unit in the army, so he really doesn't do much for the army as a whole since he's just bringing more of the same.



> I feel that there isn't that much of a tactical advantage in having a Tzeentch one shot, one hit wonder, rather than a Slaanesh multi-tasking, only slightly inferior mech, much better infantry hunter.


It's a huge tactical advantage and it's not slightly inferior, it's considerably inferior.



D-A-C said:


> Of course I come in with a pre-concieved notion, thats how these threads begin for me.
> 
> What I lack is competitive experience outside of my gaming group, thats why I post these topics, because as I build up my army with the proper and painted models I want to make sure I'm not spending money on something which isn't that great (and which I have no interest in taking regardless, due to fluff).


Sure, you come here to learn so you start threads, which is fine, that's what the boards are for. What ends up happening though is that no matter how much experience, proof and reasoning people respond to you with you'll stubbornly cling onto your original idea even when presented with large amounts of evidence to the contrary. You want to make sure that you're not spending your money on something that sucks, we (as a community) attempt to advise you and you end up just doing whatever you wanted anyway, so it really is sort of a waste of time on our part.

Maybe I should be more clear: the members of this site are _trying to help you._ Nobody here is attempting to force you into thinking the same way as them to "convert" you into being a competitive player or anything else. They're instead just advising you as best as possible and trying to help you improve your gaming experience.



> Finally, as I said, the Slaanesh Herald CAN TAKE Daemonic Gaze and still come out cheaper, so really all those points are being sunck into that 1 Shot, which as I argued, might be statistically more reliable, but on the tabletop is likely to fail to hit or penetrate at least 3 out of 6 turns, so you actually need more than one tzeentch Herald to be effective, so thats even more points.


And as I said, there are few circumstances that I'd rather use Daemonic Gaze over making a Run move. The comparison between the two would actually be better if we cut Daemonic Gaze out of the equation entirely because the Slaaneshi Herald would be more points efficient and a fair amount cheaper than the Tzeentchian one.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

> I mentioned already that Bolt isn't the best answer against heavy tanks and that Fiends are the better unit against those.


So basically, it targets things with soft Front/Side/Rear Armour such as Sentinels, Predators, Rhinos etc? 

My gaming group isn't the most meched of places, the main two as I said, being the Imperial Guard and a Tau 'Fish of Fury'.

So in games against, for example Tyranids or Foot Orks, would the Tzeentch Herald be better outfitted with Breath, Soul Devourer and Master of Sorcery?



> One chance that I've mathematically proven is more likely to destroy vehicles than the Slaaneshi Herald's seven chances. Things aren't totally different on the tabletop, averages don't stop applying while you play a game. Sure, dice can do random things. You could charge, hit six times and penetrate five, but that doesn't mean that you should be banking on having that sort of luck.


Explain one thing to me, why is the Slaanesh Heralds math tilted towards shaken? I understand that Tzeentch Bolt is AP1, but why is Slaanesh's chart not just 1/6 for each?



> I didn't suggest that a Tzeentchian Herald should gun for back armor, that would be sort of silly since no competent opponent would let it happen. Instead you go for side armor shots if possible, or fire at the front.


This just seems really tricky to me when factoring in terrain and your opponents movement when compared with the simplicity of charge straight towards the target, and IF, and it is a big IF, the opponent didn't move his vehicle in order to shoot all its weapons, then 7 sure rending hits would be better in that instance?



> One job, which he happens to be quite good at for his points and is a job that other units in the army struggle with considerably.


It just seems bizarre to me that its 'competitive' to pay 110pts for what is essentially a fast moving BS4 Bolt.



> A Slaaneshi Herald can hunt armor (poorly) and fight in close combat against infantry, exactly like every other unit in the army, so he really doesn't do much for the army as a whole since he's just bringing more of the same.


I don't know, being able to tie up and possible destroy shooty units, threaten (albiet poorly) armour and assault 12" into a unit, then leave again for 90pts (leaving out Gaze) seems like an often overlooked/dismissed option.



> Sure, you come here to learn so you start threads, which is fine, that's what the boards are for. What ends up happening though is that no matter how much experience, proof and reasoning people respond to you with you'll stubbornly cling onto your original idea even when presented with large amounts of evidence to the contrary. You want to make sure that you're not spending your money on something that sucks, we (as a community) attempt to advise you and you end up just doing whatever you wanted anyway, so it really is sort of a waste of time on our part.
> 
> Maybe I should be more clear: the members of this site are trying to help you. Nobody here is attempting to force you into thinking the same way as them to "convert" you into being a competitive player or anything else. They're instead just advising you as best as possible and trying to help you improve your gaming experience.


I just always worry that people become so entrenched in their thinking (which I'm obviously guilty of too) that they become dismissive of perfectly viable alternatives because they are *only slightly* *inferior*, i.e. to the point were the alternative is still a perfectly acceptable competitive choice, but is ignored as its not the most competitive.

Now that might sound silly, obviously the most competitive choice is exactly that, but what I mean is that that doesn't mean there aren't other competitive examples.

For instance, I chose Bloodcrushers because I like the models and am looking forward to making/painting them, and enjoy the fluff, despite knowing that Fiends are the undeniably most competitive Elite choice. *BUT* Bloodcrushers are competitive as well, just not the most competitive, if that makes sense. In other words I'm not gimping myself in the same way I would be if I too Beasts of Nurgle.

Its the same point with Slaanesh vs Tzeentch Heralds. OK, so Tzeentch is the most competitive in the mech competitive 40k setting, but is the Slaanesh Chariot not still a viably competitive option? Whereas, say, the Nurgle Herald is clearly a crap choice all round except for fluff/personal reasons.



> And as I said, there are few circumstances that I'd rather use Daemonic Gaze over making a Run move. The comparison between the two would actually be better if we cut Daemonic Gaze out of the equation entirely because the Slaaneshi Herald would be more points efficient and a fair amount cheaper than the Tzeentchian one.


So you reckon, Slaanesh Herald, Chariot, Soporific Musk, Unholy Might, Transfixing Gaze, 95pts would be better?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

D-A-C said:


> So basically, it targets things with soft Front/Side/Rear Armour such as Sentinels, Predators, Rhinos etc?


Yes, exactly. Essentially, the Herald Bolts stuff that's too cheap to allocate Fiend and Daemon Prince attention to, since you send those units after higher priority targets.



> My gaming group isn't the most meched of places, the main two as I said, being the Imperial Guard and a Tau 'Fish of Fury'.


That's cool and if you only ever intend to play in your gaming group then that's fine. I think I recall you mentioning once that you wanted to play in a tournament somewhere? If that's the case, as an experienced tournament player, I would strongly recommend that you build lists that function outside of your own local metagame.



> So in games against, for example Tyranids or Foot Orks, would the Tzeentch Herald be better outfitted with Breath, Soul Devourer and Master of Sorcery?


If you're into list tailoring (which I think is a crumby thing to do, not that it matters much), then sure, that would probably be better, though I think Soul Devourer is worthless crap.



> Explain one thing to me, why is the Slaanesh Heralds math tilted towards shaken? I understand that Tzeentch Bolt is AP1, but why is Slaanesh's chart not just 1/6 for each?


Because on glancing hits negative modifiers will insure that there are more shaken results than anything else since either a 1, 2 or 3 will result in shaken.



> This just seems really tricky to me when factoring in terrain and your opponents movement when compared with the simplicity of charge straight towards the target, and IF, and it is a big IF, the opponent didn't move his vehicle in order to shoot all its weapons, then 7 sure rending hits would be better in that instance?


It can be tricky yup, but with jetbike movement it's far from impossible to do. Honestly, I haven't had too much trouble with it, though obviously your mileage may vary.

As for the *IF*, then yeah, the Herald would be better. But lots of things become good and usable if your opponent fucks up, so it isn't really worth bringing up.

Also, I feel like this point may have been missed - 3 Fiends with Unholy Might cost less than the Slaaneshi Herald and are better in basically every way, including assaulting vehicles. 



> It just seems bizarre to me that its 'competitive' to pay 110pts for what is essentially a fast moving BS4 Bolt.


It's only competitive because in the Daemon Codex, that's the best you can do as far as cheap, reliable Bolts. If you want to talk true competitiveness, then we shouldn't even be discussing Daemons at all. As a Daemon player, you work with what you have access to.



> I don't know, being able to tie up and possible destroy shooty units, threaten (albiet poorly) armour and assault 12" into a unit, then leave again for 90pts (leaving out Gaze) seems like an often overlooked/dismissed option.


You mean like Fiends can do?



> I just always worry that people become so entrenched in their thinking (which I'm obviously guilty of too) that they become dismissive of perfectly viable alternatives because they are *only slightly* *inferior*, i.e. to the point were the alternative is still a perfectly acceptable competitive choice, but is ignored as its not the most competitive.


They're dismissive because the alternatives are _less viable_. There's no reason for someone to take a less viable alternative in competitive play. If they aren't going to tournaments wanting to win, then they can take whatever they want and it honestly doesn't matter.



> Now that might sound silly, obviously the most competitive choice is exactly that, but what I mean is that that doesn't mean there aren't other competitive examples.


Of course, but again, there's literally no reason to not take the best choice unless you're not playing with winning games as your highest priority (next to having fun... let's not bring up that can of worms again, for the love of God).



> For instance, I chose Bloodcrushers because I like the models and am looking forward to making/painting them, and enjoy the fluff, despite knowing that Fiends are the undeniably most competitive Elite choice. *BUT* Bloodcrushers are competitive as well, just not the most competitive, if that makes sense. In other words I'm not gimping myself in the same way I would be if I too Beasts of Nurgle.


Gimping yourself less doesn't make it okay. 



> Its the same point with Slaanesh vs Tzeentch Heralds. OK, so Tzeentch is the most competitive in the mech competitive 40k setting, but is the Slaanesh Chariot not still a viably competitive option? Whereas, say, the Nurgle Herald is clearly a crap choice all round except for fluff/personal reasons.


Again, no, because Fiends are better. There's literally zero reason to take a Slaaneshi Herald when you can have Fiends.

I think you may be unaware of just how much these little inefficiencies add up when you're playing at a high level. For example, taking some Bloodcrushers over Fiends may not cost you games, but if you (as an example, please don't take this literally) started running Nurgle Heralds as well, you'd hurt your chances more and then if you decided that you wanted Seekers then your chances would further decrease and so on.



> So you reckon, Slaanesh Herald, Chariot, Soporific Musk, Unholy Might, Transfixing Gaze, 95pts would be better?


I might not bother with Transfixing Gaze, but otherwise, yeah, absolutely. That's a _killer_ way to run a Slaaneshi Herald if you're fixated on taking them.


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## paolodistruggiuova (Feb 24, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> Explain one thing to me, why is the Slaanesh Heralds math tilted towards shaken? I understand that Tzeentch Bolt is AP1, but why is Slaanesh's chart not just 1/6 for each?


It's because with str5 you glance on 5 and penetrate on 6 so half your rolls on the damage table will be Shaken results on 1-3 and will be unable to wreck or destroy.
Hence the halved chance to wreck/destroy compared to stun/immo/weap destr and the doubled chance to Shake stuff



D-A-C said:


> Its the same point with Slaanesh vs Tzeentch Heralds. OK, so Tzeentch is the most competitive in the mech competitive 40k setting, but is the Slaanesh Chariot not still a viably competitive option? Whereas, say, the Nurgle Herald is clearly a crap choice all round except for fluff/personal reasons.


I think you miss a point mainly cause you play in an environment without a lot of mech armies: a slaanesh chariot isnt a bad choice, it's a good CC unit vs infantry that happen to threaten also tank to a certain degree. Here comes the problem:
on elite you have Crushers and Fiends who are great against Armored infantry and Horde/vehicles, Flamers who are great against hordes/armored infantry and decent at stopping vehicles from shooting (but they are kind of a suicide unit and often overlooked for crushers/fiends)
on troops you have Bloodletters who are good against elite infantry if they can catch them, demonettes who are great against infantry, plaguebearers that are really just used to hold objectives or tarpit units and Pink horrors that have some decent antiinfantry firepower but become REALLY ineffective at hunting tanks (95pts for 50% chance of hitting and 50% of damageing anything 12+ is bad)
on fast attack you have seekers and flesh hound that are the bad copy of fiends and screamers that have 1 meltabomb each and are okish for hunting armour...if they dont move...
on heavy support you have soul grinder, mainly antiinfantry but with tongue and DCCW is good against armours but only AB3 so unreliable as horrors and also costing 145points so not exactly cheap, and Daemon Princes that are able to cover pretty much every role but for a ranged anti tank DP you need at least 140 points...and it's slow though is more reliable with BS5

so back on topic: herald of slaanesh is not a bad choice BUT there are many other choices (mainly in elite and troops sections) doing what he does with comparable price/effectivness
herald of tzeentch otherwise is the CHEAPEST and MORE RELIABLE ranged antitank option in the codex so that's why you see it spammed in competitive daemons lists

If you dont think you need him in your environment then choose whatever you like the most, but if you start thinking of improveing the antitank department of your army now you know what is the best unit you should consider 

good night everyone


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

> Explain one thing to me, why is the Slaanesh Heralds math tilted towards shaken? I understand that Tzeentch Bolt is AP1, but why is Slaanesh's chart not just 1/6 for each?


Sometimes you'll Glance things. 

The Slaanesh Hearld is overlooked because it's simply not as good as the Tzeentch one, and you have a limited number of slots. That is in general terms, against all comers. If your area is not all mech'd up then why bother asking advice, you know the answer you're going to get is for Anti-mech. That's your meta-game and thats's great but has no baring on the general usefulness of a unit.


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