# Raven Guard 80,000 strong at Istvaan?



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I just listened to Raven's Flight 

over all it was very entertaining and I thought there was some interesting information such as: apparently, in Corax's estimation only Horus or Sanguinius had a chance of beating Angron in single combat 

but what I found even more interesting was when Corax said he came to Istvaan with 80,000 warriors 

I could have sworn I read somewhere that the Word Bearers were the second largest legion with 100,000 warriors

what the heck?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Last time I checked 80,000 was less than 100,000. I'm not quite catching the problem?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The average Legions numbers were around the 80,000 mark, with some like the Word Bearers and Ultramarines being 100,000 and 250,000 respectively. Whereas some like the Thousand Sons and Emperors Children only numbered around 10,000. But the legions numbers are highly inconsistent throughout the heresy series and the authors themselves have said they kind of just make it up as they go.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

well, I was under the impression that the Raven Guard was one of the smallest legions even before the Heresy...so instead of 80,000 I thought they probably numbered well below the average (closer to the Thousand Sons or Emperor's Children)


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

No, don't think theres ever been any indication they were smaller than average. Thousand Sons, Emperors Children and Salamanders were significantly understrength, and the Space Wolves were apparently not full strength either, but not as small as the aforementioned legions. But the rest of them were all pretty much a standard 80,000, apart from the Ultramarines and Word Bearers obviously.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> No, don't think theres ever been any indication they were smaller than average. Thousand Sons, Emperors Children and Salamanders were significantly understrength, and the Space Wolves were apparently not full strength either, but not as small as the aforementioned legions. But the rest of them were all pretty much a standard 80,000, apart from the Ultramarines and Word Bearers obviously.


I read in another thread (about the Burning of Prospero as I recall) that the SW were one of the larger legions before the Heresy, or maybe the poster simply meant the SW were much more numerous compared to the 10k strong Thousand Sons


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm sure they weren't any larger than the average, but its been suggested they weren't as big as the others. Certainly bigger than the Thousand Sons though.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

There have been several thread already covering the topic of the size of legions, and i think the conclusion reached was that:

Ultramarines : 250,000
Word Bearers : 110,000 - 150,000
15 of the legions: 80,000 - 100,000
Salamanders : 30,000 - 50,000
TS and EC : 10,000 -20,000

but most of it is still up for speculation


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

Ferrus Manus said:


> There have been several thread already covering the topic of the size of legions, and i think the conclusion reached was that:
> 
> Ultramarines : 250,000
> Word Bearers : 110,000 - 150,000
> ...



That's 20 legions. I thought the reason the UM were so big was because they had absorbed the marines of the missing 2.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

GrimzagGorwazza said:


> That's 20 legions. I thought the reason the UM were so big was because they had absorbed the marines of the missing 2.


Well that isnt fact but its up for debate, but as we have no information about the structure or size of the two missing legions i think it would be safe to assume that they were average size


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

GrimzagGorwazza said:


> That's 20 legions. I thought the reason the UM were so big was because they had absorbed the marines of the missing 2.


No, the author has stated it's just a couple of soldiers joking around.



> If I'd known people would really believe it was a hint, rather than several soldiers joking, I'd never have written it. I genuinely had no idea people would take it as fact. Most of the other HH references to the Lost Legions (especially in Prospero Burns) are spoken with an air of truth. In The First Heretic, in that scene, it's blatantly just some soldiers even admitting they know it's just a rumour.


http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=219161&st=25

It's post 30 if you are interested.


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## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

The Word Barers numbered 100,000 40 years before Issvan 5, its reasonable to assume that they would have grown in the 40 years. It also sais that at 80,000 the raven guard are one of the smallest legions at the time.


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

Gree said:


> No, the author has stated it's just a couple of soldiers joking around.


Yes, ADB did actually.

And no, I don't really think its reasonable to think the Word Bearers increased that much if even a little bit over 100,000. 

The thing with the legions is that they are very exclusive military organizations. Pretty much at this time, most legions are only recruiting from their planets. For many reasons. One for brotherhood and keeping the tradition of the legion from changing. And many of these traditions which you can also call culture run very deep within the legion.

Because of this, you rarely see legions growing. Especially since they have probably recruited as much as they could to keep their legion number's losses in line. 

Its also a problem of many of the legions. Think about it like this. Horus should have a loooot more number than he has with all that time it took to command his legion and start recruiting to the end of the crusade. And he's hardly that big. At least we know two legions are bigger than his.

Then you have the Ultramarines who own several planets to recruit their marines on.

Lastly, the biggest problem I think you have with the Astartes not really promoting growth is the fact that when they conquer in the name of the Emperor and his stupid Imperium that they don't give a shit. They keep their traditions, kick some ass, put a governor in and tell him that if he fucks around he's probably going to get the shit slapped out of him when they return. Then they leave and just don't give a shit about perhaps promoting their culture and legion strength to those planets.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

raider1987 said:


> The Word Barers numbered 100,000 40 years before Issvan 5, its reasonable to assume that they would have grown in the 40 years.


Thats debatable. Especially considering the Word Bearers post-Monarchia actually tallied up the greatest number of compliances of any Legion. Which inevitably means they took part in much more warfare, inevitably resulting in a higher casualty rate than they were used to pre-Monarchia. I guess it all depends on how fast they we were able to replenish their numbers, and it should be noted that they would only recruit from Colchis (especially following the Second Purge of the Brotherhood).

EDIT: _Aurelian_ confirms that the Word Bearers increased in size in the 40 years following Monarchia.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I concur with the last two posts. 

I think you can go as far in saying the lack of strength of the traitor legions was the reason why it was essential for them to rapidly destroy the defences on Terra as well as kill the Emperor. They needed the strength of the Daemon Legions trying to get through the Golden Throne.

The traitors simply could not put the numbers up after they had purged their legions.


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## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*

To be honest, you should take all numbers with a grain of salt. For example... 

According to Raven's flight (which I personally wouldn't consider canon, but let's humor the thought that it is), Corax left Istvaan V with approximately 5k marines. This number was apparently so small he had to "experiment" in order to rebuild his legion. 

According to Prospero Burns, basically the entire Space Wolves legion participated in the assault on Prospero. After the battle the Space Wolves numbered around 4,5-5k. Yet there is no fluff stating that the Space Wolves legion was virtually destroyed at Prospero. As a matter of fact, not too long thereafter the legion managed to fight the entire Alpha Legion to a stand still. 

To take this even further... It seems many legions kept their forces together, not too far from their Primarchs (World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Sons of Horus, Death Guard, Thousand Sons etc etc). By "not too far" I mean within close enough proximity to gather more or less the entirety of the legion when needed to. 

Now, if you were to send a legion to take out the Thousand Sons, would you choose a legion that's ca 10-20k(?) strong (Space Wolves) or would you send a legion that is, let's say, three times as big? I guess what I'm trying to say is that it makes little sense that the specialized Astartes killer legion is one third or one fourth the size of many of the other legions. Are the Space Wolves really that good? Is one Space Wolf worth 3 or 4 "regular" marines? 

For the fluff to make any sense there can't be too big descrepancies in legion size, except where this is specifically indicated. It just doesn't make any sense (at least to me) if 20k of legion Y can defeat 50k of legion X. 

My suggestion is to make up your own estimation and when the numbers in the books don't add up, consider them a typo. :grin:


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Raven's Flight is more accurate actually. Graham was more in that 15,000 type category. But they have officially made 100,000 the point to strive for. Given, there are only two legions that have exceeded or met that. But they are basically almost all 100,000. 

The way you can deal with the 15,000 Space Wolves in _A Thousand Sons_ is to think of it as the spear tip of the force. The Rest of the Legion basically purging the rest of the planet. But yes. I would imagine the Wolves would probably have a decent amount in their legion to be a "Military Threat" to Horus.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Is there a quote from "A Thousand Sons" that states how many Space Wolves invade Prospero and how many survive?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Not that i recall.... it says how many Thousand Sons escaped Prospero


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Is there a quote from "A Thousand Sons" that states how many Space Wolves invade Prospero and how many survive?


I think someone put some kind of number in a previous thread. I'm not really sure to be honest. But I don't think it was a specific number.


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## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



ckcrawford said:


> Raven's Flight is more accurate actually. Graham was more in that 15,000 type category. But they have officially made 100,000 the point to strive for. Given, there are only two legions that have exceeded or met that. But they are basically almost all 100,000.
> 
> The way you can deal with the 15,000 Space Wolves in _A Thousand Sons_ is to think of it as the spear tip of the force. The Rest of the Legion basically purging the rest of the planet. But yes. I would imagine the Wolves would probably have a decent amount in their legion to be a "Military Threat" to Horus.


Well, it's not exactly for the number of the Raven Guard I consider Raven's Flight as non-canon. There are other things that make little sense to me. Regardless, _Fulgrim_ clearly states that the combined number of defenders (the first four traitor legions) numbered ca 30k. It also states that the first wave attackers numbered ca 40k. Once all heavy equipment was engaged the total number for both sides was close to 60k. Either this is yet another inconsistancy, or we are led to believe that approximately 10k marines had died by the time the heavy guns got involved.

The earlier books in the series indicate even lower legion strengths. Was it Visions of Heresy that stated 100k as the new number? I figure that just because the earlier books were released before the change doesn't mean they are not canon, only that numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. 

It says in _Prospero Burns_ that only Astartes numbers matter. A statement that held true for Istvann III and Istvaan V as well. Considering the number of Astartes crammed together at the Urgal (spelling?) plateau it makes little sense that the Space Wolves would not commit their full strength where it was most needed. Purging the rest of the planet can be left to army components or done once the Thousand Sons were destroyed.


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## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Phoebus said:


> Is there a quote from "A Thousand Sons" that states how many Space Wolves invade Prospero and how many survive?


The full legion is committed, but exactly what that means in numbers is unknown. 

We kind of get an estimate of the numbers of the two legions throughout the battle.

The Thousand Sons start the battle app. 10k strong. By the time they reach the second defense line they number 3000. Against them, Russ leads ca 6000 Space Wolves and Custodes. 

By the time of the last fight the Thousand Sons number ca 1500 and the Space Wolves more than three times that number. Then two things happen; Wulfen kill scores of Thousand Sons and Magnus kills hundreds of Space Wolves. Ahriman thinks at first that only ca 1000 of their number is still alive, but later confirms the number to be less than 1300 (after the purgings, exactly 1242). The Space Wolves number 4,5k-5k and lose hundreds of warriors. My guess is they have approxiamtely 4500 Astartes left after the battle. Sure, that is not an exact number, but it gives you a ball park figure.

As to the Space Wolves deploying all over Prospero it would make little sense, as I stated in the reply above. But, after having skimmed through the book again it actually says that the Kine shield protected Tizca from the orbital bombardment and that the rest of the planet is "a ruined wasteland from which nothing would ever rise again". "The mountains burned, the skyline forever changed by the world-shattering detonations". 

So no, I think it's safe to say that there were no Space Wolves wandering around the wasteland outside of Tizca. And since the whole legion was committed, my estimate is that approximately 4000 to 4500 survived the battle.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Ravens Flight is canon though, whether you like the audios or not, they are canon pure and simple. And every HH novel seems to change about the numbers of the Legions now. Some are only showing as little as a few thousand or around the 10,000 mark, but others are pushing it right up to the 80,000 point and beyond. It's something i really wish the authors would just sit down and agree on, as its one of the most inconsistent points of the whole series.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

It is confusing with the contradicting numbers and sources but i do think that the true number should stay at around 80,000-100,000 average, because all the legions experienced huge losses during the HH and then as well in the Scouring, the Ultramarines lost 90% of their legion i believe by the end of the Scouring. So how would the legions be able to create several chapter out of their numbers if they had around 10,000 during the HH, but then lose massive numbers of astrates.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

no pain no gain said:


> It says in _Prospero Burns_ that only Astartes numbers matter. A statement that held true for Istvann III and Istvaan V as well. Considering the number of Astartes crammed together at the Urgal (spelling?) plateau it makes little sense that the Space Wolves would not commit their full strength where it was most needed.


Are you referring to pg 397? It then does on to state a few sentences later that the Wolves themselves doubted victory even if they outnumbered the Sons and stated that they needed the Sisters.


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## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Angel of Blood said:


> Ravens Flight is canon though, whether you like the audios or not, they are canon pure and simple. And every HH novel seems to change about the numbers of the Legions now. Some are only showing as little as a few thousand or around the 10,000 mark, but others are pushing it right up to the 80,000 point and beyond. It's something i really wish the authors would just sit down and agree on, as its one of the most inconsistent points of the whole series.


Really? Says who? Since you seem so sure it is canon, you mean to tell me that _Fulgrim _is _not _canon? For the two sources clearly contradict.

_Fulgrim _states that a small band of Raven Guard warriors carried "the grievously wounded" Corax towards escape. It goes on to say that the whole affair was over within hours, and not weeks, like Raven's Flight says. 

Now, if Raven's Flight is closer to the truth, then the incompetence of the traitor legions knows no bounds. With such overwhelming superiority and complete and utter surprise, they fail to destroy the enemy even though the entire battle field was less than 20 km wide. In addition, they let a huge Raven Guard fleet enter orbit and reach the surface despite the presence of 8(!) traitor legion fleets in orbit. That's just preposterous.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

no pain no gain said:


> Well, it's not exactly for the number of the Raven Guard I consider Raven's Flight as non-canon. There are other things that make little sense to me. Regardless, _Fulgrim_ clearly states that the combined number of defenders (the first four traitor legions) numbered ca 30k. It also states that the first wave attackers numbered ca 40k. Once all heavy equipment was engaged the total number for both sides was close to 60k. Either this is yet another inconsistancy, or we are led to believe that approximately 10k marines had died by the time the heavy guns got involved.
> 
> The earlier books in the series indicate even lower legion strengths. Was it Visions of Heresy that stated 100k as the new number? I figure that just because the earlier books were released before the change doesn't mean they are not canon, only that numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.
> 
> It says in _Prospero Burns_ that only Astartes numbers matter. A statement that held true for Istvann III and Istvaan V as well. Considering the number of Astartes crammed together at the Urgal (spelling?) plateau it makes little sense that the Space Wolves would not commit their full strength where it was most needed. Purging the rest of the planet can be left to army components or done once the Thousand Sons were destroyed.


Well the source, is it what the book says, or what Primarch Fulgrim himself estimates? As I would imagine, looking upon thousands and thousands Astartes, its pretty difficult to estimate a correct number. And as McNeill wrote both Fulgrim and A Thousand Sons, I believe he's for the more lower number of Astartes in each Legion but Gav Thorpe, the author of Raven Flight thinks they are more.


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## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Gree said:


> Are you referring to pg 397? It then does on to state a few sentences later that the Wolves themselves doubted victory even if they outnumbered the Sons and stated that they needed the Sisters.


Yes, that is correct. 

In fact, the statement on that page is kind of strange: _"No matter that we had ten or a hundred or even a thousand times his Thousand Sons, magic could level any fight."_ Personally I would have written: _"No matter _if _we had had..."_ Either the sentence should have said _if_ and not _that _ or the Wolves brought a shit load of army regiments. :grin:


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## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



forkmaster said:


> Well the source, is it what the book says, or what Primarch Fulgrim himself estimates? As I would imagine, looking upon thousands and thousands Astartes, its pretty difficult to estimate a correct number. And as McNeill wrote both Fulgrim and A Thousand Sons, I believe he's for the more lower number of Astartes in each Legion but Gav Thorpe, the author of Raven Flight thinks they are more.


It's an objective statement by the author, not an estimate by a character in the book.

Personally I think it makes a lot more sense if the legions were closer to 100k than 10k. My posts are just to show that numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt. Just like the number of expeditions (3000+) makes no sense :grin:


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I think the following need to be said:

1. More than one author has come out to say that "canon" is a delicate subject where 40k is concerned. What's that one popular quote? "It's all canon, and none of it is" or some such?

2. But if you do want to go down the canon route, "Raven's Flight" came after "Fulgrim". Assuming the authors do talk to one another about details of this sort, then reason stands that the latest number is the more correct.

3. And if #2 is correct, then you need to take it with a grain of salt that not JUST the Raven Guard got increased in size.

4. None of the authors for Black Library are superhuman genius-level military strategists. Much of what they will describe for you in their prose is aimed for dramatic effect first and genius-level military strategy second (or, as able).

Horus, for instance, states that he sent his fleets off prior to Isstvan V. Undoubtedly he had his reasons for doing so. In the real world, this was because the story needed a dramatic ground conflict. Logically speaking, though, we all know that this should have had HUGE alarms going off in Ferrus, Corax, and Vulkan's craniums--Horus had just willingly trapped himself on Isstvan with no hope of escape, and whilst being outnumbered at that.

To sum up: imperfect world, imperfect people, imperfect stories. In an ongoing, large-scale, multi-author series such as this, it is a fact of life that you, dear reader (not just you, no pain, but everyone out there), have to make concessions to the variances and differences that will be expressed in the prose.

For myself, I won't start grumbling until characters described as doing X in one book are shown doing Y in another.

Cheers,
P.


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## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Phoebus said:


> I think the following need to be said:
> 
> 1. More than one author has come out to say that "canon" is a delicate subject where 40k is concerned. What's that one popular quote? "It's all canon, and none of it is" or some such?
> 
> ...


1. True. For such a large universe and with input from so many people (White Dwarf, codices etc. there are bound to be mistakes.

2. I doubt they talk that much to each other. Lots of crazy things have happened, like time warps, people being born on different planets according to different books etc. What I don't like about Raven's Flight, apart from silly little things like electro whips etc, is that it's a piss in the ocean from a time perspective, and despite this it tries to make huge changes in the fluff. If Thorpe wrote a whole book on the Raven Guard and decides to change the fluff, then I would be more acceptable to the idea. I find a book in the HH series a lot more trust worthy than something that isn't even printed. Until another book comes out that sheds some light on the fate of Corax, I will go by what has been said in the HH books, namely that he was grievously wounded.

3. I take _all _numbers with a grain of salt. Haven't you read my posts? 

4. What!? Don't destroy my perfect world like that:cray: Seriously though, I have several times thought about giving up the whole Warhammer genre because of the logic military blunders (other type of blunders I care very little for). In fact, I have stopped reading 40k and focus entirely on 30k. Having grown up with 40k as a hobby I simply can't stay away of the awesomeness (is that a word?) of the HH series. Everything is just so much grander. After having read everything from Rouge trader and on I finally get a chance to read about the heroes of old k:. Besides, I don't have to find excuses why 80 marines can conquer a city, much less a planet. Having said that, I hate it when the author does a sloppy job of explaining (trying to find an excuse for) something that logically makes little sense. It makes me feel like I'm reading comic book fiction, kind of like He-Man or Superman.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

It's an official part of the Horus Heresy series, approved by Games Workshop for use and as such is canon. I don't see how people can just pick and choose what they want to be canon and not, especially from something in the same series. By that same logic i could just dismiss all the events of Fulgrim for example, i could say that Fulgrim wasn't possessed, Ferrus isn't dead etc etc.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

If we were to go down he route that _Ravens Flight_ contradicts _Fulgrim_ we could go further and say it is actually _Fulgrim_ that contradicts already established canon (ala _HH: Collected Visions_) and that _Ravens Flight_ was merely returning to follow 'canon' more closely.


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## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Angel of Blood said:


> It's an official part of the Horus Heresy series, approved by Games Workshop for use and as such is canon. I don't see how people can just pick and choose what they want to be canon and not, especially from something in the same series. By that same logic i could just dismiss all the events of Fulgrim for example, i could say that Fulgrim wasn't possessed, Ferrus isn't dead etc etc.


Why would you do something like that? I know of no source that says that Ferrus did not die on Istvaan V, do you?


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## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Baron Spikey said:


> If we were to go down he route that _Ravens Flight_ contradicts _Fulgrim_ we could go further and say it is actually _Fulgrim_ that contradicts already established canon (ala _HH: Collected Visions_) and that _Ravens Flight_ was merely returning to follow 'canon' more closely.


Of course you can. Whatever makes you tick. When two sources (which apparently are "offical") give a completely different account of something, you have to choose. You can't really say that on even days I think Y happened and on odd days I think X happened. When sources contradict in fiction you need to make up your own mind.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

no pain no gain said:


> 2. I doubt they talk that much to each other.


Well, we know that they talk to each other--that they have regular meetings where they outline the course, their ideas, etc.

Having said that, there will always be discrepancies because let's face it: they'll never be able to nail down all the little details. Things like Qruze will always pop up--we'll just have to hope they're easily explainable (Cthonia being close enough to Terra and all that).

I imagine another factor that throws a wrench into the works is the fact that many of these books are written concurrently. That would likely prevent someone from catching a lot of differing nuances. Ultimately, it probably comes down to thorough editing. In this instance, I'm not trying to bash people unduly for what has been, overall, a terrific series, but I would imagine that at some point of the process hitting Ctrl+F and then inputing each character's name to ensure that his or her instances in Novel X didn't contradict with those of Novel Y would be a given. :wink:



> ... ["Raven's Flight"] tries to make huge changes in the fluff.


I don't see how it does; the difference in numbers/Legion is about the only major change I noticed.



> I find a book in the HH series a lot more trust worthy than something that isn't even printed. Until another book comes out that sheds some light on the fate of Corax, I will go by what has been said in the HH books, ...


I have to disagree here. When it's commissioned by the BL AND it is _written_ by a guy like Gav Thorpe--who at one point was lead background designer for 40k--it's beyond second-guessing (IMHO at any rate).



> ... namely that he was grievously wounded.


He _was_ wounded, though, in "Raven's Flight" as well (IIRC). 

I understand your frustrations regarding #4, though. I've been reading the "Gaunt's Ghosts" series lately, and in one of them the Tanith arrive to help break a deadlock on a world that fights in antiquated methods--trenches, artillery barrages, pointless mass infantry charges over open terrain, etc. The Guard make a point of lamenting how backward these people are, and I was left thinking _"THAT'S WHAT YOU DO ALL THE TIME, it seems!"_ :biggrin"

Such is life!

Cheers,
P.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

no pain no gain said:


> Why would you do something like that? I know of no source that says that Ferrus did not die on Istvaan V, do you?


Because its just as absurd as anyone else deciding that another part of the series, audio or not isn't canon, simpy because they don't agree with it or it contradicts something else. The area where Magnus eye used to be is described different from book to book, some say its a mess of scar tissue, others that its as if an eye never existed there, just smooth skin, shall i dismiss these books beause they contradicted each other? No.

And in the Iron Hands Index Astartes article, it mentions nothing of Ferrus being killed by Fulgrim, so theres one source. How about i decide not to believe Collected Visions or any of the future Horus Heresy novels that state the Ultramarines were part of the fleet that broke the Siege of Terra, because in the older fluff it's only the Dark Angels and Space Wolves.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

The bigger number was actually the original outlook of the legions. Since then, they tried to get down to the 15,000 are .

But in all seriousness, it should really be 100,000. 1000's just aren't what it takes to take the worlds of alien races with superior technology. 

Anyhow, I thought I had a pretty good thread on this a while ago. It explains the reasons why some legions are the numbers they are and some quotes from authors like Graham McNeill and ADB over the numbers. Hope this can help with some questions you may have.

Thoughts on Smallest Legion


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## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Angel of Blood said:


> Because its just as absurd as anyone else deciding that another part of the series, audio or not isn't canon, simpy because they don't agree with it or it contradicts something else. The area where Magnus eye used to be is described different from book to book, some say its a mess of scar tissue, others that its as if an eye never existed there, just smooth skin, shall i dismiss these books beause they contradicted each other? No.
> 
> And in the Iron Hands Index Astartes article, it mentions nothing of Ferrus being killed by Fulgrim, so theres one source.


Does it say that he lived past Istvaan V? If it just isn't mentioned at all, you can't really argue that it didn't happen. If it does say the former, then by all means... 



Angel of Blood said:


> How about i decide not to believe Collected Visions or any of the future Horus Heresy novels that state the Ultramarines were part of the fleet that broke the Siege of Terra, because in the older fluff it's only the Dark Angels and Space Wolves.


It took Horus seven (7!) years to reach Terra, so don't get me started on the race for Terra. Here, we're talking major nonsense :biggrin: But to get back on topic... My personal view is this; if newer sources (= sources from when the HH series was started) state something, I go with it. If they contradict, I make up my own mind. If the HH book describing the siege says that it was Dorn who was killed by Horus, I'll go with that. The other info we have on the final battle is really old. 

My point is this; not until GW started releasing the HH series did they start putting all the 30k pieces together. If HH info changes old fluff, I'll buy that, coz it's (hopefully) well thought through. If new and supposedly well thought through info contradict, like in this instance, I make my choice in a way that makes the most sense to me. Since it's a contradiction, whatever source I choose, one will be wrong. 

You probably say that the latest source is always the one we should trust, which is a good argument. In fact, it's probably the best way to go. Except in this instance, it is a lot easier, for me, to ignore a small stand-alone novella then books that are linked and that even share passages with other books in the series. But hey, each to his own.


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## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



ckcrawford said:


> The bigger number was actually the original outlook of the legions. Since then, they tried to get down to the 15,000 are .
> 
> But in all seriousness, it should really be 100,000. 1000's just aren't what it takes to take the worlds of alien races with superior technology.
> 
> ...


Cheers mate!


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

no pain no gain said:


> Does it say that he lived past Istvaan V? If it just isn't mentioned at all, you can't really argue that it didn't happen. If it does say the former, then by all means..


It says its unknown what happened to him, so sure i can choose to believe he didn't die. Hell i can believe Luxs insane theory about his paper mache head. Somewhere it even states they believe Ferrus was taken to Mars, so i could choose to believe that. But i won't, because the Heresy series outright says he got give a rather severe hair cut by the overly effeminate Fulgrim.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

This? Again? _Really?_

I swear I've posted this on Heresy several times now, and on Bolter and Chainsword; WarSeer; and the Bolthole.

*The average Legion size was 100,000. * All of them, with the exception of the Ultramarines, had around 100,000 warriors. The smaller ones - such as the Raven Guard - had around 80,000. But 100,000 was the "average" size of them. They were all huge. Huuuuuuuuuge, I tells ya.

The earlier books (before and including _A Thousand Sons_) were operating from older canon sources. While writing _The First Heretic_, I asked at a Horus Heresy meeting if we could nail the proper Legion sizes down. It was agreed by Games Workshop's IP Manager, Alan Merret (responsible for a lot of the HH lore over the years) that they were 100,000 strong, as noted in _Horus Heresy: The Collected Visions._

So just multiply the pre-_A Thousand Sons_ novel numbers by 10. Ish.


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## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> This? Again? _Really?_
> 
> I swear I've posted this on Heresy several times now, and on Bolter and Chainsword; WarSeer; and the Bolthole.
> 
> ...


Thank you; you just made my point k:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

So now you can surely accept Ravens Flight as canon, seeing as the numbers presented conform to the numbers set out by GW


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> This? Again? _Really?_
> 
> I swear I've posted this on Heresy several times now, and on Bolter and Chainsword; WarSeer; and the Bolthole.
> 
> ...


But wouldn't one think that even if they increased pretty big, they would still be a relatively smaller legion than most? Due to the fact that the legion pretty much failed all together at one point.


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

no pain no gain said:


> In addition, they let a huge Raven Guard fleet enter orbit and reach the surface despite the presence of 8(!) traitor legion fleets in orbit. That's just preposterous.


If you're talking about how Corax and co. escape from Isstva(a)n right under the guns of the traitor fleet, that's actually explained in Gav's short in Age of Darkness.
YMMV on whether it's a good explanation, but one is given.

edit: Also, while multiplying the legion numbers given in Fulgrim in light of ADB's info is totally cool with me (cheers for stating that again btw), the Thousand Sons being dropped to roughly a thousand guys (twice) during their history is surely too important to just shift like that? However, them starting out at 100K, dropping to 1K because of flesh-change and then only getting back up to 10K before the Burning of Prospero is fine, right? makes the flesh-change "pandemic" really fricking scary/serious if it 90 percents them. So can we make an exception for them in this whole multiplying business? 
Then, do we multiply the Wolves? As if we do that, the 1KSons were holycrapoutnumbered.

Can we not mix the two? The Sons and Wolves were waaaaay small due to flesh-change/wulfen issues respectively, but everyone else was 100K or around it? Failed Space Wolves are a big part of the fluff now, after all.


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## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Angel of Blood said:


> So now you can surely accept Ravens Flight as canon, seeing as the numbers presented conform to the numbers set out by GW


If you've read my earlier answer to Monty you'd know that is not the numbers that makes me doubt Raven's Flight. 

If you've read some of my other posts you'll also see that I find 80k to make much more sense than 15k and that I take all numbers with a grain of salt. In my mind all legions are roughly the same size, except where this is specifically pointed out as not true (Ultramarines and Thousand Sons). 

So no, I stand by my decision to ignore Raven's Flight. At least until I get further information on Corax.

Cheers


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## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Mob said:


> If you're talking about how Corax and co. escape from Isstva(a)n right under the guns of the traitor fleet, that's actually explained in Gav's short in Age of Darkness.
> YMMV on whether it's a good explanation, but one is given.
> 
> edit: Also, while multiplying the legion numbers given in Fulgrim in light of ADB's info is totally cool with me (cheers for stating that again btw), the Thousand Sons being dropped to roughly a thousand guys (twice) during their history is surely too important to just shift like that? However, them starting out at 100K, dropping to 1K because of flesh-change and then only getting back up to 10K before the Burning of Prospero is fine, right? makes the flesh-change "pandemic" really fricking scary/serious if it 90 percents them. So can we make an exception for them in this whole multiplying business?
> ...


Thanks, I am not familiar with Age of Darkness. I'll look into it. 

Yeah, exactly. You kind of make up your own numbers as you go along in order to make sense of things. Some numbers need to be multiplied by ten, some by five, it doesn't really matter. Just do whatever works for you. 
In fact, your explanation on the Thousand Sons I'll buy right away.k: 
It must have been something really horrible to compel Magnus to make the deal he did. Of course, at that time he was so sure (full) of himself he didn't realize he got the short end of the stick.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

no pain no gain said:


> According to Prospero Burns, basically the entire Space Wolves legion participated in the assault on Prospero. After the battle the Space Wolves numbered around 4,5-5k. Yet there is no fluff stating that the Space Wolves legion was virtually destroyed at Prospero.


Because it wasn't, perhaps?

In "A Thousand Sons", McNeill qualifies that the number of Thousand Sons Astartes is that of the survivors on Prospero each time he gives it (two times, IIRC). He never does the same for the Space Wolves. Only once does he say that there are 6,000 Space Wolves, plus Custodes, Sisters of Silence, etc., marching against the surviving Thousand Sons. He does not qualify these are the only Space Wolves. In fact, there are any number of places the other Wolves could be at.



> Now, if you were to send a legion to take out the Thousand Sons, would you choose a legion that's ca 10-20k(?) strong (Space Wolves) or would you send a legion that is, let's say, three times as big? I guess what I'm trying to say is that it makes little sense that the specialized Astartes killer legion is one third or one fourth the size of many of the other legions. Are the Space Wolves really that good? Is one Space Wolf worth 3 or 4 "regular" marines?


Even if the Space Wolves were that depleted, you have to remember that their deployment to Prospero was not clear-cut in the way you're presenting.

To begin with the Space Wolves enjoy an advantage other Astartes don't--the psychological advantage of being inured to battle against other Space Marines. Virtually every other depiction of Loyalists has them in shock at just the _thought_ of fighting their "brethren". Not the Wolves. Secondly, it's not just the Wolves. The Sisters of Silence are a powerful equalizer, in that they negate the Thousand Sons' most potent advantage.



> _Fulgrim _states that a small band of Raven Guard warriors carried "the grievously wounded" Corax towards escape.


And "Raven's Flight" specifically makes mention of Corax being wounded and of him having emerged from a crashed Thunderhawk, just as "Fulgrim" had him being carried, grievously wounded, unto a Thunderhawk.

To which I have to say... even normal Astartes are able to recover from serious wounds and continue fighting... _so why not a Primarch?_



> It goes on to say that the whole affair was over within hours, and not weeks, like Raven's Flight says.


Yes... the main battle. "Raven's Flight" concerns itself with a skirmish that is, by comparison, absolutely minor. Compared to the virtual destruction of two Legions (and the Veterans of a third), the guerilla fight to eliminate the last few thousand survivors of a Legion that is now stranded on Isstvan V is really minor. Ultimately, it's not even the same battle.

Besides, I have to question how you thought Corax escaped in the first place. No mention is made of Corax successfully making it off of Isstvan V at that point. The Salamanders and Raven Guard fleets would have been dreadfully outnumbered, facing more than two-to-one odds and would have been surprised. Any follow-on rescue effort would have taken weeks to affect, just for sheer travel time.



> Now, if Raven's Flight is closer to the truth, then the incompetence of the traitor legions knows no bounds. With such overwhelming superiority and complete and utter surprise, they fail to destroy the enemy even though the entire battle field was less than 20 km wide.


I don't know about that. When fighting superhuman warriors, anything's dicey.

Plus, you have to take into consideration other factors. The Traitors waited for the retreating Salamanders and Raven Guard to get almost to their lines. If they'd been walloping them with artillery and aerial bombardment from the get-go, and were slaughtering them in the open, in a no man's land, I could see your point. But if even 75% of the original strength of the Raven Guard were intact by the time they were engaged by the Traitors, hundreds of meters from their lines, massacring everyone (when everyone = superhuman warrior) would be a difficult proposition.



> In addition, they let a huge Raven Guard fleet enter orbit and reach the surface despite the presence of 8(!) traitor legion fleets in orbit. That's just preposterous.


I don't know about it being a "huge" fleet. Furthermore, I'd posit that not all of the Traitor Fleets (and Legions) were necessarily still on or about Isstvan V.

Beyond that, all I have to say is "element of surprise". And it's clear from the description of the story that they had an extremely small window of opportunity to get in and get out.

All in all, I simply don't see how "Raven's Flight" is contrary to the established fluff. And, again, I'd point out that Gav Thorpe is a person who's been integral to the establishment of 40k fluff. Feelings on the validity of audio dramas aside*, he's hardly the guy to second-guess, IMHO.

* And there is no issue in my eyes. If you're going to second-guess BL's audio dramas, you might as well second-guess their novels. They are published by the same company and written by the same stable of authors.

Cheers,
P.


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## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Phoebus said:


> Because it wasn't, perhaps?
> 
> In "A Thousand Sons", McNeill qualifies that the number of Thousand Sons Astartes is that of the survivors on Prospero each time he gives it (two times, IIRC). He never does the same for the Space Wolves. Only once does he say that there are 6,000 Space Wolves, plus Custodes, Sisters of Silence, etc., marching against the surviving Thousand Sons. He does not qualify these are the only Space Wolves. In fact, there are any number of places the other Wolves could be at.


Not true, read it again more carefully. And no, there are not any number of places the Space Wolves could be. They had the constantly shrinking force of Thousand Sons surrounded. It feels to me you're trying to find a way to see things that aren't there. 

I suggest you read through the HH books and see the way Space Marines are portrayed as fighting. They don't spread out over huge areas, they mass and strike hard. Especially in this case when there is no area to spread out to. All land outside of Tizca was devastated. Did the Thousand Sons spread out, to bolster the Spire Guard? No, they did not. 


Phoebus said:


> Even if the Space Wolves were that depleted, you have to remember that their deployment to Prospero was not clear-cut in the way you're presenting.


Well, I used my incredible powers of deduction. A: The planet was a wasteland with one exception. B: The whole legion was committed. C: The Thousand sons were all in the centre of Tizca and Astartes numbers were all that mattered. D: We are given two different numbers for the Space Wolves force, clearly indicating their shrinking force. E: Their vast reinforcements never participated but were just looking on... No, just kidding. They clearly had no vast reinforcements. 


Phoebus said:


> To begin with the Space Wolves enjoy an advantage other Astartes don't--the psychological advantage of being inured to battle against other Space Marines. Virtually every other depiction of Loyalists has them in shock at just the _thought_ of fighting their "brethren". Not the Wolves. Secondly, it's not just the Wolves. The Sisters of Silence are a powerful equalizer, in that they negate the Thousand Sons' most potent advantage.


Not true. In the eyes of the Space Wolves, the Thousand Sons were traitors. Other legions had no qualms about killing traitor Space Marines; rather the opposite. They did it with a hatred that was greater than normal.

If you try to make me believe that a Sister of battle is better than a Space Marine, one-on-one, you're gonna have to argue a long, long time. As the legion killer legion, the Space Wolves would attack any other legion. Would they be able to destroy, for example the Wordbearers (100k+) also you mean? As long as they can have some Custodes with them?


Phoebus said:


> And "Raven's Flight" specifically makes mention of Corax being wounded and of him having emerged from a crashed Thunderhawk, just as "Fulgrim" had him being carried, grievously wounded, unto a Thunderhawk.
> 
> To which I have to say... even normal Astartes are able to recover from serious wounds and continue fighting... _so why not a Primarch?_


It's not just about Corax, but his legion. Apparently they weren't wiped out, but retreated in good order.


Phoebus said:


> Yes... the main battle. "Raven's Flight" concerns itself with a skirmish that is, by comparison, absolutely minor. Compared to the virtual destruction of two Legions (and the Veterans of a third), the guerilla fight to eliminate the last few thousand survivors of a Legion that is now stranded on Isstvan V is really minor. Ultimately, it's not even the same battle.


Not really, the battle field is simply too small, the opposition too overwhelming. That a few troopers can make it out is one thing in the general melee, that 5000+ Astartes is allowed to retreat is something entirely different. 



Phoebus said:


> Besides, I have to question how you thought Corax escaped in the first place. No mention is made of Corax successfully making it off of Isstvan V at that point. The Salamanders and Raven Guard fleets would have been dreadfully outnumbered, facing more than two-to-one odds and would have been surprised. Any follow-on rescue effort would have taken weeks to affect, just for sheer travel time.


Exactly. Any large scale engagements are bound to be detected by the traitor fleets. A small ship would stand a better chance of leaving undetected. 


Phoebus said:


> I don't know about that. When fighting superhuman warriors, anything's dicey.
> 
> Plus, you have to take into consideration other factors. The Traitors waited for the retreating Salamanders and Raven Guard to get almost to their lines. If they'd been walloping them with artillery and aerial bombardment from the get-go, and were slaughtering them in the open, in a no man's land, I could see your point. But if even 75% of the original strength of the Raven Guard were intact by the time they were engaged by the Traitors, hundreds of meters from their lines, massacring everyone (when everyone = superhuman warrior) would be a difficult proposition.


They _did _slaughter them in the open, in a no man's land. It is obviously much better to engage in close range than far away. The heavy weapons were in fact used as is described in _The First Heretic_. Had they made mistakes like you describe and fired prematurely there would be a better chance of the loyalist retreating in (relatively) good order. 



Phoebus said:


> I don't know about it being a "huge" fleet. Furthermore, I'd posit that not all of the Traitor Fleets (and Legions) were necessarily still on or about Isstvan V.


Extracting 5000+ Astartes takes quite a few ships, I would think. That's the equivalent of 5 chapters. 

Why would their fleets leave? Then they would have to come back when the legions leave Istvaan V. I could say that _Fulgrim states that _3000+ traitor vessels were jousting for position, but I guess you take the Istvaan part of that book with a grain of salt. 


Phoebus said:


> Beyond that, all I have to say is "element of surprise". And it's clear from the description of the story that they had an extremely small window of opportunity to get in and get out.


Exactly again. Considering the overwhelming traitor forces it makes little sense that a large fleet could make planet fall without detection. A small vessel could perhaps leave undetected, with luck and fate etc.



Phoebus said:


> All in all, I simply don't see how "Raven's Flight" is contrary to the established fluff. And, again, I'd point out that Gav Thorpe is a person who's been integral to the establishment of 40k fluff. Feelings on the validity of audio dramas aside*, he's hardly the guy to second-guess, IMHO.
> * And there is no issue in my eyes. If you're going to second-guess BL's audio dramas, you might as well second-guess their novels. They are published by the same company and written by the same stable of authors.
> 
> Cheers,
> P.


I'm not second-guessing anyone. I simply choose to go by what one recently written canon source tells me instead of another. 

Cheers


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

no pain no gain said:


> Not true, read it again more carefully. And no, there are not any number of places the Space Wolves could be. They had the constantly shrinking force of Thousand Sons surrounded. It feels to me you're trying to find a way to see things that aren't there.
> 
> I suggest you read through the HH books and see the way Space Marines are portrayed as fighting. They don't spread out over huge areas, they mass and strike hard. Especially in this case when there is no area to spread out to. All land outside of Tizca was devastated. Did the Thousand Sons spread out, to bolster the Spire Guard? No, they did not.


I don't like Phoebus too (Just kidding:grin: I like the Greek Bastard). But I must disagree with you here. Every legion has its own way fighting battles. If you read _Prospero Burns_ and even the battle before that one, you understand, they do go everywhere, and they do destroy everything. Almost unnecessarly. Maybe due to their culture ways of fear of the unknown. They destroyed the whole planet of Prospero completely. Absolutely completely. They weren't there to take out the Thousand Sons and reestablish the world. 

They are called the executioners for a reason. Its even described in _Prospero Burns_; when they were sent to put a world in compliance they did so by sending a message. Virtually to go in their and anhilate the enemy. A message that if you would not listen to the Emperor when he told you to do something you would suffer the worst of any fate. Virtually being destroyed from the Imperium's history. Your culture never remembered again.





no pain no gain said:


> Well, I used my incredible powers of deduction. A: The planet was a wasteland with one exception. B: The whole legion was committed. C: The Thousand sons were all in the centre of Tizca and Astartes numbers were all that mattered. D: We are given two different numbers for the Space Wolves force, clearly indicating their shrinking force. E: Their vast reinforcements never participated but were just looking on... No, just kidding. They clearly had no vast reinforcements.


This is true. Though you have to understand. The Wolves are considered the greatest military threat to Horus. Number has to be in this legion somewhere. Let a lone. This legion faced two entire legions by themselves during the Heresy. I wouldn't say it is to crazy to think they really do have the number.




no pain no gain said:


> Not true. In the eyes of the Space Wolves, the Thousand Sons were traitors. Other legions had no qualms about killing traitor Space Marines; rather the opposite. They did it with a hatred that was greater than normal.
> 
> If you try to make me believe that a Sister of battle is better than a Space Marine, one-on-one, you're gonna have to argue a long, long time. As the legion killer legion, the Space Wolves would attack any other legion. Would they be able to destroy, for example the Wordbearers (100k+) also you mean? As long as they can have some Custodes with them?


I don't think you read _Prospero Burns_. Its understandable your take if you haven't. No they did not necessarly think Magnus was a traitor. They thought he went to far. In Dan Abnett's book it clearly shows Russ gave Magnus the opportunity to surrender and be taken in front of the Emperor. Instead, Magnus accepted his fate. 

The wolves had a quality about them that kept them stern and unquestionably loyal to the Emperor. Perhaps seeing their genetic flaws, this made them surrender themselves more to the will of the Emperor than most legions.

And no, a sister of battle is not superior to an astartes one one one. But there is an extend to an astartes. Though they are hyped up, there's only so much one astartes can do. With the combinned efforts of a sister and other resources, they can give an astartes quite a match.

As to the rest of your argument. I understand why you question how Corax was able to survive the way he did. For one, he was able to escape to the mountains, and dwell their for a while. 

Secondly, from the first part of the battle. Though Corax complains about his numbers, he really had more astartes than any other legion. Where he lost this advantage was when the second wave came. The wave that had never been in the fray yet.

The World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, and Luna Wolves had all suffered purges. It even states in _Fulgrim_ the first wave had numerical superiority despite having Corax with a small legion, and the Salamanders who had an even smaller legion, and a few companies of Iron Hands.

Because of this, they were virtually only hit very hard from one side of the fight... The Second Wave. While the Iron Hands were still fighting the original battle, this gave time for some of the Raven Guard to retreat to the hills.

5000 is a lot. But from what I remember, Horus and the Luna Wolves were preparing their ships elsewhere, thinking the battle of Istvaan over. Thats how they were able to escape. Due to Horus' arrogance. We'll see more of this as time progresses.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

no pain no gain said:


> Not true, read it again more carefully.


By all means, share with me your quote. I'm not trying to be rude, incidentally--what I did was go through my eBook of "A Thousand Sons" and do a search for the word "thousand" (which, btw, was kind of a pain in the ass for obvious reasons!). I got every instance where Ahriman talks about how many of his brothers are left... and one instance where Space Wolves are referred to--and it was not saying by any means that those were the ONLY Wolvces left.



> And no, there are not any number of places the Space Wolves could be. They had the constantly shrinking force of Thousand Sons surrounded.


Sure there are places. For one, on their own starships--it's called a strategic reserve. For another, throughout the city of Tizca. Call it what you will--searching for stragglers, crushing the Spireguard, securing key objectives, wiping out civilians, etc.

And for yet another, and this has to do with your follow-on points as well, the initial deployment of the Wolves was not against the Thousand Sons. The TS eventually sallied forth to meet the Wolves, but the initial battle was throughout the city and against the Spireguard. Eventually, the SW engage the TS, and at that point McNeill tells us how many of them are doing so.

Of course, all the above is how I believe "A Thousand Sons" can be reconciled with the known Legion sizes (that is, even a somewhat smaller Space Wolves Legion--say 50-60,000 due to losses in wiping out two other Legions). Alternately, I suppose serving as "executioners" may have been much more costly and there were only 20,000 or so Space Wolves prior to Prospero. In that case, only the presence of the Sisters and Custodes made their use viable.



> I suggest you read through the HH books and see the way Space Marines are portrayed as fighting.


Thanks, but I've read all of the Heresy books and a number of other 40k Astartes-centered books. 



> Well, I used my incredible powers of deduction.


I qualified what I meant, and it had really little to do with what you mention below. Beyond that...



> We are given two different numbers for the Space Wolves force, clearly indicating their shrinking force.


Agree to disagree, then. For myself, if the author doesn't QUALIFY that this is due to losses, I have a hard time imagining that he is doing so. Especially when he DOES qualify smaller numbers due to losses for the other side.



> E: Their vast reinforcements never participated but were just looking on... No, just kidding. They clearly had no vast reinforcements.


Whatever floats your boat, I guess, but reserves and reinforcements are valid concepts... and would not be used _if they didn't need to be used._ :wink:



> Not true. In the eyes of the Space Wolves, the Thousand Sons were traitors. Other legions had no qualms about killing traitor Space Marines; rather the opposite. They did it with a hatred that was greater than normal.


The fluff states otherwise. On the one hand, we have the Space Wolves, who have been used twice before to take out other Legions. Leman Russ' reaction to his task in "Prospero Burns" is somber. His warriors are grim. On the other, we have examples from "Galaxy in Flames", "Flight of the Eisenstein", "Fulgrim", and "Fallen Angels" of Astartes and Primarchs alike being stunned, shocked, and left in disbelief.

Mind you, I'm not saying another Legion would have quailed and wept and done a poor job of it. What I'm saying is that the Space Wolves were ready for it, and any lack of numbers was made up for by the fact that (A) the Thousand Sons sucked in numbers even worse, and (B) the Sisters would be nullifying the Sons' greatest asset.



> If you try to make me believe that a Sister of battle ...


Sister of Silence...



> is better than a Space Marine, one-on-one, you're gonna have to argue a long, long time.


I'm saying that, standing next to a Space Wolf, she just made a Thousand Son Astartes' psychic powers useless. Which makes the odds against Magnus' Legion even worse.



> As the legion killer legion, the Space Wolves would attack any other legion. Would they be able to destroy, for example the Wordbearers (100k+) also you mean? As long as they can have some Custodes with them?


Look, man, you're taking words out of context now.



> It's not just about Corax, but his legion. Apparently they weren't wiped out, but retreated in good order.


Sorry, but no. In "Fulgrim", it's made perfectly clear that, though they're being wiped out, the Raven Guard are fighting hard to affect an escape--examples given include a Captain leading his warriors to an intact Thunderhawk. "Raven's Flight" follows up on that concept, with less than 10% of Corax's force achieving a breakout through disciplined fighting and multiple points of withdrawal.



> Not really, the battle field is simply too small, the opposition too overwhelming. That a few troopers can make it out is one thing in the general melee, that 5000+ Astartes is allowed to retreat is something entirely different.


Having studied military history for quite some time, I'll simply tell you that I'd need maps to be convinced that a force of, let's say 80,000 (Ravenguard and Salamanders at the time that they're being ambushed at the Dropsites) could be wiped out entirely by a force even twice their size (remember, neither the Word Bearers nor the Iron Warriors were fielding their full strength at Isstvan V). Short of total encirclement, complete annihilation of an enemy is a rare even in virtually any battlefield--that's a historical fact. Less than 6% of a fighting force managing to achieve a breakthrough an escape is hardly implausible.



> Exactly. Any large scale engagements are bound to be detected by the traitor fleets. A small ship would stand a better chance of leaving undetected.


That's just your conjecture. No source ever said "Corax made it off Isstvan V this way". "Raven's Flight" in no way contradicted any source--be it "Fulgrim" or anything else.

If anything, Corax escaping via Thunderhawk would have been silly. Up in orbit, two Legions' ships were being ambushed by easily twice (if not three times) the numbers of enemies. And this is BEFORE Corax would have gotten there. Would Corax have even had a ship to escape on? "Raven's Flight" wisely address this by, surprise surprise, not having any survivors.

Is this unfair, given the Raven Guard's escape in the wilderness? No. The Raven Guard on Isstvan could use cover, concealment, terrain, and their skill to evade and escape their foes. Warships in the void would have nowhere to hide, and we know from several sources that it would take hours, if not days, in the open to make it to Warp. They'd be destroyed by then.



> They _did _slaughter them in the open, in a no man's land. It is obviously much better to engage in close range than far away.


Yeah... no offense, but modern warfare kind of disagrees with you here.



> The heavy weapons were in fact used as is described in _The First Heretic_. Had they made mistakes like you describe and fired prematurely there would be a better chance of the loyalist retreating in (relatively) good order.


Not so much. Pinned between two forces and with artillery barrages not only pounding them, but bracketing their escape routes as well while vehicles and armor maneuvered to close off any routes away from the high ground occupied in the dropsites? Sorry, this is textbook stuff.

You can definitely go on about how Astartes warfare is illogical, but you can't just dump this on "Raven's Flight". It simply provides outcomes to a situation that was unlikely to begin with (the old, "let's all land in a mass of infantry and attack the enemy--who happens to be in possession of a fortress stated to be impervious to orbital bombardment but decided to meet us in the outside, in his own mass infantry formation!").



> Extracting 5000+ Astartes takes quite a few ships, I would think. That's the equivalent of 5 chapters.


Brother, I'm starting to get the feeling that it's you that needs to re-read (or re-hear) this stuff. :wink:

It's less than 2,000 when they escape, IIRC.

And no, it wouldn't take quite a few ships. It takes twenty such cruisers or seven such battle barges to field that many Astartes as a *functional fighting force*--meaning, with tanks, thunderhawks, artillery, armorium, apothecarion, librarium, training cages, etc. It would take not even a destroyer (which already has a crew that size) to fit less than 2,000 Astartes on its decks, corridors, etc. These guys don't need beds, they hardly need food, etc.



> Why would their fleets leave? Then they would have to come back when the legions leave Istvaan V. I could say that _Fulgrim states that _3000+ traitor vessels were jousting for position, but I guess you take the Istvaan part of that book with a grain of salt.


No, not at all. I said "ALL of their fleets". As in, most of the Traitors might have left (it's several weeks--90 days, I think--after Isstvan, after all, by the time the rescue happens) and the ships remaining are for those Traitors still waiting to depart or hunting for Corax & Co. As in, less ships, and more chances for however many vessels were needed to launch however many Thunderhawks were needed to pick up the guys in need of rescue.

And really, that's the only weak part of "Raven's Flight". The story qualifies that Corax is able to evade the enemy because a force of that size can't be detected by starships above. But the rescuers somehow magic them out of the blue? Again, though, this is hardly something worth whining about when we've already been exposed to crazier stuff in 40k warfare. 



> I'm not second-guessing anyone. I simply choose to go by what one recently written canon source tells me instead of another.


You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I was responding to your questioning the worth of audio dramas _specifically._ As such, I pointed out that there's no grounds to do that. If you're going to dispute Thorpe or his story, feel free to do so (we can always agree to disagree as to whether you should), but the audio dramas go through the exact same vetting and creative process as any other story. They're simply the way they are to form a different source of revenue. 

Cheers,
P.


----------



## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



ckcrawford said:


> I don't like Phoebus too (Just kidding:grin: I like the Greek Bastard). But I must disagree with you here. Every legion has its own way fighting battles. If you read _Prospero Burns_ and even the battle before that one, you understand, they do go everywhere, and they do destroy everything. Almost unnecessarly. Maybe due to their culture ways of fear of the unknown. They destroyed the whole planet of Prospero completely. Absolutely completely. They weren't there to take out the Thousand Sons and reestablish the world.
> 
> They are called the executioners for a reason. Its even described in _Prospero Burns_; when they were sent to put a world in compliance they did so by sending a message. Virtually to go in their and anhilate the enemy. A message that if you would not listen to the Emperor when he told you to do something you would suffer the worst of any fate. Virtually being destroyed from the Imperium's history. Your culture never remembered again.


Actually, that's the Night Lords you're talking about. 

The Space Wolves do seem to destroy things, but I do not get the notion that they are buthers of civilians, like the World Eaters.



ckcrawford said:


> This is true. Though you have to understand. The Wolves are considered the greatest military threat to Horus. Number has to be in this legion somewhere. Let a lone. This legion faced two entire legions by themselves during the Heresy. I wouldn't say it is to crazy to think they really do have the number.


Exactly! That has been my point all along, namely that all numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.



ckcrawford said:


> I don't think you read _Prospero Burns_. Its understandable your take if you haven't. No they did not necessarly think Magnus was a traitor. They thought he went to far. In Dan Abnett's book it clearly shows Russ gave Magnus the opportunity to surrender and be taken in front of the Emperor. Instead, Magnus accepted his fate.
> 
> The wolves had a quality about them that kept them stern and unquestionably loyal to the Emperor. Perhaps seeing their genetic flaws, this made them surrender themselves more to the will of the Emperor than most legions.


You're right in one thing; there is actually a huge gap in the story line in _Prospero Burns_. Russ means to take Magnus into custody, then the next thing we read is that the orbital bombardment begins. If you only go by the book, and don't put things into context through deduction, then what you say i clearly true. However, what the reader of Prospero Burns is not told is that during the gap Horus convinces Russ that Magnus indeed is a traitor. In fact, Russ is so infuriated (my own deduction) that HE GOES AGAINST THE ORDERS FROM TERRA and simply starts destroying things.



ckcrawford said:


> And no, a sister of battle is not superior to an astartes one one one. But there is an extend to an astartes. Though they are hyped up, there's only so much one astartes can do. With the combinned efforts of a sister and other resources, they can give an astartes quite a match.


I fail to see what this has to do with my point, which is; can the Space Wolves legion, augmented with Sisters and Custodes, take out another legion that is twice their size? Don't tell me you think the Sisters and Custodes equalled the Space Wolves in numbers. 



ckcrawford said:


> As to the rest of your argument. I understand why you question how Corax was able to survive the way he did. For one, he was able to escape to the mountains, and dwell their for a while.
> 
> Secondly, from the first part of the battle. Though Corax complains about his numbers, he really had more astartes than any other legion. Where he lost this advantage was when the second wave came. The wave that had never been in the fray yet.
> 
> ...


The traitors numbered 75% of the loyalists, BUT they were entrenched in excellent fortifictions, and the traitors had the Titan as well (ngh, don't get me started on titans, btway). This was not a walk in the park for the loyalists. 

I hope I'll be able to read more about Istvaan V before the end of the HH series. Perhaps new facts will come into light. No offense, but you, nor anybody else, have been able to make sense of Raven's Flight so far.

I mean, why didn't Istvaan V play out like Istvaan III? The numbers arrayed against them and the surprise element were both factors that were more severe for the loyalists on Istvaan V than they were to the loyalists on Istavaan III.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

no pain no gain said:


> However, what the reader of Prospero Burns is not told is that during the gap Horus convinces Russ that Magnus indeed is a traitor. In fact, Russ is so infuriated (my own deduction) that HE GOES AGAINST THE ORDERS FROM TERRA and simply starts destroying things.


Unless of course the orders from Terra were never just to simply apprehend Magnus.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed, the Emperor made it explicitly clear at Nikea that anyone who should defy his edict would face his full wrath. It's pretty clear from the edict that he fully intends to destroy anyone who defies his orders.

And Russ made the plea to Magnus though Hawser under the assumption that Hawser was a spy for Magnus, but as we know by the end of the book this isn't the case. So Magnus never got the offer from Russ and even if he did, as we saw in A Thousand Sons, Magnus had clearly decided to allow himself and his legion to be destroyed, but changed his mind toward the end obviously.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

no pain no gain said:


> Actually, that's the Night Lords you're talking about.
> 
> No I wasn't. The Night Lords are not the only legion to have destroyed entire populations of Civilians. The Lion, one of the noblest of the Primarchs, tried to use a whole cities population as bait against a horde of orks. The Night Lords are just known at playing with the corpes when they were done.
> 
> ...


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

CotE, AoB,

If the orders were to do anything beyond apprehending Magnus, Horus' statement (regarding convincing Russ otherwise) makes no sense.


----------



## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Phoebus said:


> By all means, share with me your quote. I'm not trying to be rude, incidentally--what I did was go through my eBook of "A Thousand Sons" and do a search for the word "thousand" (which, btw, was kind of a pain in the ass for obvious reasons!). I got every instance where Ahriman talks about how many of his brothers are left... and one instance where Space Wolves are referred to--and it was not saying by any means that those were the ONLY Wolvces left.


I don't have the exact page number, writing this away from home, but I mentioned the numbers given in my earlier posts (and when they were given). Based on my earlier information it shouldn't be hard for you to find.


Phoebus said:


> Sure there are places. For one, on their own starships--it's called a strategic reserve. For another, throughout the city of Tizca. Call it what you will--searching for stragglers, crushing the Spireguard, securing key objectives, wiping out civilians, etc.


No, that's not how Astartes are portrayed as fighting, just check the earlier books. You'd think that Astartes would divide their leadership over larger areas, but all the top captains are always seen fighting together, no matter which legion we read about (Death Guard, Luna Wolves, Thousand Sons etc.) The only threat to the Space Wolves were the Thousand Sons, and if the Space Wolves are such an excellent legion, then surely they would deploy as much force to counter this threat as possible. If the Space Wolves numbers opposite the Thousand Sons weren’t dwindling your argument might have value, but not as it is.


Phoebus said:


> And for yet another, and this has to do with your follow-on points as well, the initial deployment of the Wolves was not against the Thousand Sons. The TS eventually sallied forth to meet the Wolves, but the initial battle was throughout the city and against the Spireguard. Eventually, the SW engage the TS, and at that point McNeill tells us how many of them are doing so.


That's your interpretation. My interpretation is that the Space Wolves were not the least interested in Prospero or the Spire Guard. They were after the Thousand Sons, and the Spire Guard just happened to be in the way. To get to the former they battled through the later. Just read and you'll see what kind of resistance they managed to offer. I remember something about a very competent commander who had devised an excellent defensive position that Russ & Co. overran in 2 minutes. 

You claim that the Space Wolves would have strategic reserves. If that was true, why did they not deploy them in the battle, when they had lost 25% of the warriors that were fighting the Thousand Sons? Again, for such an accomplished legion this makes absolutely no sense. I don't mean to be rude, but I really feel that you're trying to come up with... well, anything, in order to justify your arguments.


Phoebus said:


> Of course, all the above is how I believe "A Thousand Sons" can be reconciled with the known Legion sizes (that is, even a somewhat smaller Space Wolves Legion--say 50-60,000 due to losses in wiping out two other Legions). Alternately, I suppose serving as "executioners" may have been much more costly and there were only 20,000 or so Space Wolves prior to Prospero. In that case, only the presence of the Sisters and Custodes made their use viable.


We don't really know if the Space Wolves participated in more than one purging. In addition, it happened atleast 45 years before the attack on Prospero, which is plenty of time to rebuild. Remember that it took the Imperial Fists only 19 years to get back (tom some degree) from the Iron cage incident. 

I find the prior purging to be of little conequence, except giving the Space Wolves great experience in fighting other Astartes. 

Something I find more interesting is how they manage to fight the Alpha Legion to a stand still shortly after the attack on Prospero. The Alpha legion, that supposedly is so unorthodox and clever. Well, I guess you could say that the Space Wolves are quite unorthodox as well, and well suited to fight the Alpha legion. Anyway, that's another topic. 


Phoebus said:


> Thanks, but I've read all of the Heresy books and a number of other 40k Astartes-centered books.
> 
> I qualified what I meant, and it had really little to do with what you mention below. Beyond that...


Yeah, I would have been surprised if you hadn't. Sorry for that statement btway, it's just that I felt like you were "looking for a needled in a haystack" (see my statement above). The _number _of books you or anyone else have read (incl myself) is of no consequece. Only arguments matter.



Phoebus said:


> Agree to disagree, then. For myself, if the author doesn't QUALIFY that this is due to losses, I have a hard time imagining that he is doing so. Especially when he DOES qualify smaller numbers due to losses for the other side.


Wow, if everything needs to be spelled out to you then I guess there is very little in the HH series you take for facts. Sure, if you want to read everything exactly by the letter and never add one and one together it's up to you. 


Phoebus said:


> Whatever floats your boat, I guess, but reserves and reinforcements are valid concepts... and would not be used _if they didn't need to be used._


They Space Wolves got thrashed once the Thousand Sons started using their "special powers". Heck, they even used a titan. The reason why military commanders have reserves are because they don't know what the enemy is up to, or where. In this battle, there were no unknowns by the time the Space Wolves numbers started dwindling. Well, there is always chaos in battle (remember Moltke's famous quote ), but I would like to argue that knowing where to put in the reserves in this battle was a no-brainer. Mainly because the Thousand Sons did not spread out, and did not seem to have any heavy equipment.



Phoebus said:


> The fluff states otherwise. On the one hand, we have the Space Wolves, who have been used twice before to take out other Legions. Leman Russ' reaction to his task in "Prospero Burns" is somber. His warriors are grim. On the other, we have examples from "Galaxy in Flames", "Flight of the Eisenstein", "Fulgrim", and "Fallen Angels" of Astartes and Primarchs alike being stunned, shocked, and left in disbelief.


No it does not. See my reply to *ckcrawford. *You have to put one and one together and not read everything by the word. Since you seem unwilling to do so I guess we won't ever agree on this.


Phoebus said:


> Mind you, I'm not saying another Legion would have quailed and wept and done a poor job of it. What I'm saying is that the Space Wolves were ready for it, and any lack of numbers was made up for by the fact that (A) the Thousand Sons sucked in numbers even worse, and (B) the Sisters would be nullifying the Sons' greatest asset.
> 
> 
> Sister of Silence...
> ...


You are not even responding to what I'm asking you. My question was not about the Thousand Sons, but the Word Bearers. Ok, one more time...

Do you think the small Space Wolves legion, together with Sisters and Custodes, would be able to purge the Word Bearer legion? I mean, the Space Wolves are the killer legion, right? Would the Space Wolves destroy a legion twice or trice their size?



Phoebus said:


> Sorry, but no. In "Fulgrim", it's made perfectly clear that, though they're being wiped out, the Raven Guard are fighting hard to affect an escape--examples given include a Captain leading his warriors to an intact Thunderhawk. "Raven's Flight" follows up on that concept, with less than 10% of Corax's force achieving a breakout through disciplined fighting and multiple points of withdrawal.


You are referring to a small group, led by a single captain. That's hardly 5000. :wink: 



Phoebus said:


> Having studied military history for quite some time, I'll simply tell you that I'd need maps to be convinced that a force of, let's say 80,000 (Ravenguard and Salamanders at the time that they're being ambushed at the Dropsites) could be wiped out entirely by a force even twice their size (remember, neither the Word Bearers nor the Iron Warriors were fielding their full strength at Isstvan V). Short of total encirclement, complete annihilation of an enemy is a rare even in virtually any battlefield--that's a historical fact. Less than 6% of a fighting force managing to achieve a breakthrough an escape is hardly implausible.


On the contrary, it is a given. Real world military engagements are based on psychology more than anything. Did you for example know that less than half of US WW2 soldiers _in battle_ fired their weapons because of their psychological mindset (data from European theater only). Real world soldiers give up. Astartes do not. 

If the HH story line is consistent, then Istvaan V should end like Istvaan III. The odds against the loyalist on Istvaan V were greater than on Istvaan III. I believe _Fulgrim _states that thousands of Astartes died by the minute, and that was before the second wave came.


Phoebus said:


> That's just your conjecture. No source ever said "Corax made it off Isstvan V this way". "Raven's Flight" in no way contradicted any source--be it "Fulgrim" or anything else.


Yes it does. _Fulgrim_ clearly adheres to older canon. The time frame is totally different.

And come on, you student of military history. Which commander would have a huge victory celebration and leave the system, knowing that there is a sizable force of enemy Astartes around. They didn't even bombard from orbit. No, clearly the Raven Guard was wiped out. Horus is a great military commander, so what does he do? He lets the enemy slip away from his trap and instead sends isolated columns of inferior numbers to take them out much later. Wow, what a great tactician. I rest my case...


Phoebus said:


> If anything, Corax escaping via Thunderhawk would have been silly. Up in orbit, two Legions' ships were being ambushed by easily twice (if not three times) the numbers of enemies. And this is BEFORE Corax would have gotten there. Would Corax have even had a ship to escape on? "Raven's Flight" wisely address this by, surprise surprise, not having any survivors.


Funny, you seem to make my point for me. A space battle was most likely happening around the same time Corax is carried off the battle field (we're talking about hours, according to _Fulgrim_) In this confusion, the small vessel escapes (by using up all of Corax’s fate points :grin. 



Phoebus said:


> Is this unfair, given the Raven Guard's escape in the wilderness? No. The Raven Guard on Isstvan could use cover, concealment, terrain, and their skill to evade and escape their foes. Warships in the void would have nowhere to hide, and we know from several sources that it would take hours, if not days, in the open to make it to Warp. They'd be destroyed by then.
> 
> Yeah... no offense, but modern warfare kind of disagrees with you here.


Nope, Eistenstein (sp?) left quite fast, despite being seriously crippled. 

Modern warfare in space? Allow me to smile 


Phoebus said:


> Not so much. Pinned between two forces and with artillery barrages not only pounding them, but bracketing their escape routes as well while vehicles and armor maneuvered to close off any routes away from the high ground occupied in the dropsites? Sorry, this is textbook stuff.


Wow, I can't believe that a student of military history is writing this. Actually, in military situations like these you want to accomplish complete and total surprise. You therefore try to hold your fire until the enemy comes as close as possible. 



The loyalists were in a depression, meaning they were pounded from two superior high ground forces. Since there were thousands of Astartes and their vehicles, there would be plenty of stuff to shoot at for the heavy guns. 


You seem to forget that the second wave forces had plenty of time to get their forces in order. The Iron Warriors even managed to build fortifications. The whole idea behind Istvaan V was to annihilate the loyalist Astartes. Istvaan V in itself held no value. Considering the competency of the Primarchs we must therefore conclude that they deployed their forces with this in mind. Oh wait, conclude means to not take things exactly like they are written, something you seem unwilling to do. 


Phoebus said:


> You can definitely go on about how Astartes warfare is illogical, but you can't just dump this on "Raven's Flight". It simply provides outcomes to a situation that was unlikely to begin with (the old, "let's all land in a mass of infantry and attack the enemy--who happens to be in possession of a fortress stated to be impervious to orbital bombardment but decided to meet us in the outside, in his own mass infantry formation!").a crew that size) to fit less than 2,000 Astartes on its decks, corridors, etc. These guys don't need beds, they hardly need food, etc.


He he, I agree with you here. Why didn’t the loyalists deploy a couple of titans for example? 
Ok, you have a point here. There are many other illogical situations throughout the HH series, or Warhammer world, so why not in Raven’s Flight, you say? Good point. I think it might have to do with the fact that there is no connection from the main battle, explaining how things changed. Maybe if we were told how the Raven Guard escaped the trap… I dunno. 


Phoebus said:


> Brother, I'm starting to get the feeling that it's you that needs to re-read (or re-hear) this stuff.
> 
> It's less than 2,000 when they escape, IIRC.
> 
> And no, it wouldn't take quite a few ships. It takes twenty such cruisers or seven such battle barges to field that many Astartes as a *functional fighting force*--meaning, with tanks, thunderhawks, artillery, armorium, apothecarion, librarium, training cages, etc. It would take not even a destroyer (which already has a crew that size) to fit less than 2,000 Astartes on its decks, corridors, etc. These guys don't need beds, they hardly need food, etc.


Ok, maybe that is true. My three points are still valid:
1. The escape from the trap makes little sense. And we have not read, sorry heardX, how it is accomplished.
2. Why not bombard the survivors to pieces like they did on Istvaan III? Atleast they shouldn’t have waited so long to get to grips with them. Horus was on a tight time schedule.
3. It is easier to leave a system in the middle of a space battle, then to go there, land and then leave, when everything is calm. And a battle barge is quite big. How it could avoid getting detected I don’t know. 


Phoebus said:


> No, not at all. I said "ALL of their fleets". As in, most of the Traitors might have left (it's several weeks--90 days, I think--after Isstvan, after all, by the time the rescue happens) and the ships remaining are for those Traitors still waiting to depart or hunting for Corax & Co. As in, less ships, and more chances for however many vessels were needed to launch however many Thunderhawks were needed to pick up the guys in need of rescue.
> 
> And really, that's the only weak part of "Raven's Flight". The story qualifies that Corax is able to evade the enemy because a force of that size can't be detected by starships above. But the rescuers somehow magic them out of the blue? Again, though, this is hardly something worth whining about when we've already been exposed to crazier stuff in 40k warfare.


And again, for Horus to send away the legions without having accomplished the goal of the Istvaan operation is ridiculous. And which legion does he send in pursuit of the Raven Guard (close combat guerrilla warfare experts)? That’s right everybody, the Iron Warriors, who are famous for just those kind of situations… No wait, isn’t that the Night Lords, Luna Wolves or basically ANY other legion than the Iron Warriors? 



Maybe all Astartes send out homing signals on secret frequencies that are privy to their own forces only? I don’t know enough about such things to know if that could be a feasible explanation, but I’d buy it if that had been the reason given. :grin: 


Phoebus said:


> You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I was responding to your questioning the worth of audio dramas _specifically._ As such, I pointed out that there's no grounds to do that. If you're going to dispute Thorpe or his story, feel free to do so (we can always agree to disagree as to whether you should), but the audio dramas go through the exact same vetting and creative process as any other story. They're simply the way they are to form a different source of revenue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 As you are entitled to your opinion of course. The reason I’m debating with you right now is because are trying to make me change my opinion, and since you haven’t been able to offer me any valid points as to why I should do that I guess the debate continues. :wink:

Cheers


----------



## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Unless of course the orders from Terra were never just to simply apprehend Magnus.


Yes, they were. It is stated in one (or even two) of the books that Horus muses about how he managed to convince Russ that to apprehend Magnus would just be a waste of time. 

Basically, they way I read it, Horus is to blame for the bloodshed on Prospero.


----------



## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Angel of Blood said:


> Indeed, the Emperor made it explicitly clear at Nikea that anyone who should defy his edict would face his full wrath. It's pretty clear from the edict that he fully intends to destroy anyone who defies his orders.
> 
> And Russ made the plea to Magnus though Hawser under the assumption that Hawser was a spy for Magnus, but as we know by the end of the book this isn't the case. So Magnus never got the offer from Russ and even if he did, as we saw in A Thousand Sons, Magnus had clearly decided to allow himself and his legion to be destroyed, but changed his mind toward the end obviously.


That's true. Hmm, but I do remember reading that Horus manipulated Russ. Maybe I dreamed it :biggrin: 

Honestly, I have to check the books again. I'll be back (read that with an Austrian accent :biggrin...


----------



## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



ckcrawford said:


> no pain no gain said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, that's the Night Lords you're talking about.
> ...


You are not reading my answers correctly. You said that the Space Wolves sent messages, basically scaring planets into submission. My response was that it is the Night Lords who are famous for that tactic, not the Space Wolves.

And again, my response about the World Eaters concerned butchering civilians. I was not talking about sacrificing civilians. There is always civilian casualties in war. I'm talking about Astartes butchering civilians themselves. I have no account of the Dark Angels butchering civilians, the way the World Eaters and Night Lords are.

And why do you say that the Lion is one of the noblest Primarchs. From what we have read about him he seems to be vain (Horus's interpretation) and paranoid. Heck, Gav Thorpe (who many of you hold in such high regard) seems to insinuate that he was an opportunist of the highest degree. 

Incidently, I believe the Space Wolves to be quite noble and have a hard time seeing them behaving like the abovementioned legions. My view is probably based on Logan Grimnar's actions after the first battle of Armageddon, so I'll admit that the 30k version of Space Wolves could be quite different. 


ckcrawford said:


> During the beginning of the battle that was surely not the case. The Loyalists did have numerical superiority. It clearly states that in _Fulgrim_, even though they did have a Titan and the traitors were facing small chuncks of legions. They were outnumbered. It goes to show you that the entrenched traitors had become very devasted, having been involved in their own purges and fighting entire legions.


It was indeed the case. The numbers (30k traitors and 40k loyalists) are given in _Fulgrim_. That is not a huge difference. Normal military doctrine says you should have atleast twice the force when you attack a dug-in and prepared defender.


ckcrawford said:


> I'm not surprised the Titan did not do that much damage on a massive scale. Especially since the loyalists landed right on top of them. Probably prevented them from firing upon at first due to the proximity of the rest of the traitors.


Once the loyalist heavy equipment was deployed, the titan had plenty of targets.


ckcrawford said:


> Besides that, we are talking about a legion. They probably have all the tools to counter the titan. I've seen titans get destroyed by squads of Astartes. I can totally see a legion countering a Titan.


Well, on Istvaan III one of the loyalist captains specifically told another 
captain/sergeant to ignore the titan since they could not harm it.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

no pain no gain said:


> Something I find more interesting is how they manage to fight the Alpha Legion to a stand still shortly after the attack on Prospero. The Alpha legion, that supposedly is so unorthodox and clever. Well, I guess you could say that the Space Wolves are quite unorthodox as well, and well suited to fight the Alpha legion. Anyway, that's another topic.


You mean the Alpha Legion who engaged *two* Legions, one at full strength and the other at almost full/fighting strength after Istavaan and also in many more smaller battles at the same time solo? lolwut

The SW are not suited to fight the Alpha Legion anymore than the Ultramarines are or *insert random Legion* with the exception of possibly the DA.


----------



## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Malus Darkblade said:


> You mean the Alpha Legion who engaged *two* Legions, one at full strength and the other at almost full/fighting strength after Istavaan and also in many more smaller battles at the same time solo? lolwut
> 
> The SW are not suited to fight the Alpha Legion anymore than the Ultramarines are or *insert random Legion* with the exception of possibly the DA.


Which two legions are you talking about? The White Scars never fought the Alpha Legion, to my knowledge. They were supposed to relieve the Space Wolves but had to go to Terra instead. And the Space Wolves were severely decimated, having just attacked Prospero. 

True, we have been given no information that would indicate that the Alpha Legion would have a harder time against unorthodox legions. It was an attempt on my side to try to explain perhaps why the Space Wolves managed to do so well against the Alpha Legion. In fact, I believe we only have one incident that shows the Alpha Legion to be superior, and that is the fight against the Ultramarines. Maybe the Alpha Legion was just as good as any other legion, no better no worse?

Oh, and why would the Dark Angels be better suited to fight the Alpha Legion than other legions?


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

no pain no gain said:


> Which two legions are you talking about?


White Scars and Space Wolves



no pain no gain said:


> The White Scars never fought the Alpha Legion, to my knowledge.
> 
> They were supposed to relieve the Space Wolves but had to go to Terra instead. And the Space Wolves were severely decimated, having just attacked Prospero.


Page 345 of Collected Visions.

While not at full strength, the SW were at fighting strength. Also by other smaller battles I meant their engagements with a company of SW at Yarant and a deployment of White Scars/other legions at Tallarn on small outposts according to Index Astartes IV



no pain no gain said:


> True, we have been given no information that would indicate that the Alpha Legion would have a harder time against unorthodox legions. It was an attempt on my side to try to explain perhaps why the Space Wolves managed to do so well against the Alpha Legion. In fact, I believe we only have one incident that shows the Alpha Legion to be superior, and that is the fight against the Ultramarines. Maybe the Alpha Legion was just as good as any other legion, no better no worse?
> 
> Oh, and why would the Dark Angels be better suited to fight the Alpha Legion than other legions?


In Collected Visions, it says the SW evaded the AL and had help from an unexpected quarter not that they outsmarted the AL or beat them in combat.

Also it's mentioned that alone, either legion could not face the AL but only stood a chance when they combined forces.

Because the DA are possibly the most unorthodox legion/tactical after the AL .


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

no pain no gain said:


> Yes, they were. It is stated in one (or even two) of the books that Horus muses about how he managed to convince Russ that to apprehend Magnus would just be a waste of time.





Phoebus said:


> CotE, AoB,
> 
> If the orders were to do anything beyond apprehending Magnus, Horus' statement (regarding convincing Russ otherwise) makes no sense.


Theres a lot of factors to take into account here. Its not entirely clear whether the Emperor ordered the Burning of Prospero and death of Magnus or just his apprehension. But regardless, the Wolf King emerged in the Prospero System intent on destruction.

Now, we know that Horus contacted Russ, and seemed to think that he convinced Russ to kill Magnus, the wording in _False Gods_ being: _"He was... suitably angry, and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of time and effort."_

Yet from _Prospero Burns_ we know this wasn't the case. Russ wasn't _"suitably angry"_, he even attempted to contact Magnus in an attempt to convince him to revert his ways and repent. I doubt Russ (actually being very intelligent and not a simpleton) would have strictly disobeyed the Emperor's direct orders because Horus had whispered in his ear.

Then there is the theory that the Burning of Prospero and death of Magnus was the only logical choice the Emperor could make following Magnus' warning. Magnus proved to be a very grave threat to the Imperium, his warning proved this. The Emperor had seemingly ordered a purge of two Primarchs before, and almost a third in Lorgar. There is no reason he would have hesitated again. There is also the Emperor's warning at Nikaea, he claimed that if any broke his ruling he would visit destruction upon them. 

_The Collected Visions_ claims two things, it contradicts itself in saying that the Emperor ordered the Burning and death of Magnus as well as merely his apprehension. So that isn't much use here.

Then, there is also the presence of Valdor. It isn't clear what effect his presence would have had. Firstly, because he takes orders only directly from the Emperor it seems odd that Horus would have been able to alter his (and Russ') orders. But then _A Thousand Sons_ claims that: _"He saw the honeyed words of Horus and the sinister urgings of Constantin Valdor, each spoken with very different purposes, but designed to sway Leman Russ towards a destination of total destruction.The scale of this betrayal shocked him to the root of all that he was. Ahriman had come to terms with Horus Lupercal’s betrayal, for it had its origins in the snares and delusions woven by beings to whom the passage of vigintillions of aeons were but the blink of an eye. This? This was all too human treachery. These were lies, told for noble reasons, but which had brought about the unintended consequences of Prospero’s destruction."_

But then _Prospero Burns_ presents a Russ that is fiercely intelligent, and one that would surely stay true to the Emperor's orders, regardless of the _"honeyed words of Horus and sinister urgings of Constantin Valdor."_ It is also the following that seems to absolve Horus of blame for the burning of Prospero: _"These were lies, told for noble reasons, but which had brought about the unintended consequences of Prospero’s destruction."_ - That is seemingly refering to _"the sinister urgings of Constantin Valdor"_, so maybe he had a more direct impact than has previously been established.

So ultimately in my view its not clear-cut whether the Emperor himself ordered merely the apprehension or death of Magnus. If anything the Prospero duology simply added more questions rather than answering them in this regard.



no pain no gain said:


> Basically, they way I read it, Horus is to blame for the bloodshed on Prospero.


_Prospero Burns_ pretty much states that Chaos is to blame rather than Horus specifically.


----------



## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Malus Darkblade said:


> White Scars and Space Wolves
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Aha, lots of good info here. I guess my knowledge was based on old fluff. 
Hmm, based on what is written in the Collected Visions it sounds like the Alpha Legion should have been the Astartes Killer Legion instead of the Space Wolves. :grin:

The statement about the Dark Angels possibly being the second most unorthodox legion, is that also from Collected Visions?


----------



## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Theres a lot of factors to take into account here. Its not entirely clear whether the Emperor ordered the Burning of Prospero and death of Magnus or just his apprehension. But regardless, the Wolf King emerged in the Prospero System intent on destruction.
> 
> Now, we know that Horus contacted Russ, and seemed to think that he convinced Russ to kill Magnus, the wording in _False Gods_ being: _"He was... suitably angry, and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of time and effort."_
> 
> ...


Good research. 
I guess it is not exactly clear what impact Horus had. However, just the fact that Horus tried to persuade Russ says to me that his orders were _not_ to destroy the Thousand Sons. If those were his orders, and Russ is fiercely loyal (having purged at least one legion before) there would have been no need for Horus to convey "honeyed words" to Russ. The only other explanation I can see (if his orders were to destroy) is that Russ faltered in his service to the Emperor, something that goes very much against everything we are told about the Space Wolves. 

One thing I find interesting though, is Valdor. Why would he go against the Emperor's orders? If the Emperor's orders were to destroy the Thousand Sons I'm sure Valdor would have been quite obstinate. Kind of like the Custodes in _The First Heretic_, facing Lorgar. Now, he comes of more like a hard-liner, urging Russ to take things one step further than planned. 

I feel that there is a huge gap in the story line in _Prospero Burns_. One moment Russ tries to talk to Magnus, urging him to surrender. The next, we read that the orbital bombardment begins. It makes no sense. If the Thousand Sons had fired first I could understand the bombardment, but they did nothing. Isn't that a sign of surrender, that the orbital defense systems are shut down? I think one of the Space Wolf warriors even joked that the whole affair would be over in less than three hours because of it. 

Because of this gap, Russ comes of as an A-hole (if you ask me), which is too bad since I like the way he is otherwise portrayed in Prospero Burns (quite intelligent and empathetic).


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

no pain no gain said:


> Aha, lots of good info here. I guess my knowledge was based on old fluff.
> Hmm, based on what is written in the Collected Visions it sounds like the Alpha Legion should have been the Astartes Killer Legion instead of the Space Wolves. :grin:
> 
> The statement about the Dark Angels possibly being the second most unorthodox legion, is that also from Collected Visions?


Guile, and cunning > "RAAAAAAAAWR" + 4 x 5 = 20 imo ^_^

No, the bit about the DA is based on the novels, El'Johnson sacrificing civilians to kill a majority of orks, etc.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

no pain no gain said:


> Good research.
> One moment Russ tries to talk to Magnus, urging him to surrender. The next, we read that the orbital bombardment begins. It makes no sense. If the Thousand Sons had fired first I could understand the bombardment, but they did nothing. Isn't that a sign of surrender, that the orbital defense systems are shut down? I think one of the Space Wolf warriors even joked that the whole affair would be over in less than three hours because of it.


Russ tries to talk to Magnus trhough Hawser, under the mistaken belief that Hawser is an implanted spy for the Thousand Sons, we later learn that while the Thousand Sons may have spies in the Wolves (Going by Magnu's words in A Thousand Sons) Hawser is not a TS spy as we are told by the daemon, but rather one planted by the daemon.

Or at least that's strongly implied.


----------



## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Gree said:


> Russ tries to talk to Magnus trhough Hawser, under the mistaken belief that Hawser is an implanted spy for the Thousand Sons, we later learn that while the Thousand Sons may have spies in the Wolves (Going by Magnu's words in A Thousand Sons) Hawser is not a TS spy as we are told by the daemon, but rather one planted by the daemon.
> 
> Or at least that's strongly implied.


Yes, but neither Russ nor Hawser knows how the channel works (if there is a channel even), meaning they don't know if Magnus can communicate back through Hawser. Because of this, Russ shouldn't take silence as a sign of opposition. 

My point is that the way things are written it seems that Russ doesn't care that Magnus is surrendering. Is he surrendering? Yes, because the defense systems are shut down. Instead of holding true to his words (admittedly spoken to Hawser, hoping Magnus would hear) and taking Magnus into custody when he sees the defence systems being deactivated (sign of surrender) he "stabs Magnus in the back" by totally destroying the entire planet (except the capital, which is protected). Once the Space Wolves land there is no doubt as to their mindset. They're there to destroy, not take Magnus into custody. 

Again, my point is: Once Magnus realized his mistake, he did everything right, i.e. he resigned himself to his fate. BUT because Russ & Co. went overboard, he eventually couldn't take the destruction anymore and started fighting. 

The Russ that was portrayed would have (I think) landed his entire force without the bombardment, deployed as though an attack was imminent, but then sent a delegation to the city, asking for the surrender of the Thousand Sons. If Magnus refused, then heck, he got himself to blame. As it was, he never even got the chance, even though he tried to play nice.


----------



## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Malus Darkblade said:


> Guile, and cunning > "RAAAAAAAAWR" + 4 x 5 = 20 imo ^_^
> 
> No, the bit about the DA is based on the novels, El'Johnson sacrificing civilians to kill a majority of orks, etc.


That's a rather weak argument. Several legions wouldn't think twice about sacrificing civilians if it spared their own numbers. The Luna Wolves (Abbadon) for example, not to mention the World Eaters, Night Lords etc. Heck, Titan crews would even fire into friendly army detachments. And how about the Space Wolves, destroying a whole planet to get 10k Astartes...

Besides, what you mention has more to do with El'Johnson's tactics than the legion as a whole. Didn't the Dark Angels commander even go against El'Johnson on that decision. 

I think that the most unorthodox about the Dark Angels is that they can consider acting against their Primarch (thinking about killing him, attacking him on Caliban, refusing to carry out an order), something I have not seen any other legion do openly (the Wordbearers can be said to have done it hiddenly). The Night Lords seem to have given Night Haunter some headaches, but i have not read anything as explicit as directly refusing to obey an order.

I believe the Space Wolves to be more unorthodox than most legions. They deploy Wulfen/Wurgen and they seem to be the only legion, except the Thousand Sons of course, to retain Librarians (in the form of Rune Priests) after the council of Nikaea (granted the other legions obeyed the verdict).


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> White Scars and Space Wolves
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So the AL didn't face 2 Legions, why say they did and then support your statement with info that contradicts it?


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

no pain no gain said:


> That's a rather weak argument. Several legions wouldn't think twice about sacrificing civilians if it spared their own numbers. The Luna Wolves (Abbadon) for example, not to mention the World Eaters, Night Lords etc. Heck, Titan crews would even fire into friendly army detachments. And how about the Space Wolves, destroying a whole planet to get 10k Astartes...
> 
> Besides, what you mention has more to do with El'Johnson's tactics than the legion as a whole. Didn't the Dark Angels commander even go against El'Johnson on that decision.
> 
> ...


Everything about El'Johnson points to him being a very mysterious Primarch whose intent is never fully understood because of his upbringing and his brush with Chaos. He's the only Primarch who has a retinue of xenos/chaos/non-human beings with him as well. So I would say he is quite _different _than his brothers.

The SW using their fallen ones as fodder doesn't make them unorthodox, just not wasteful of potential weapons.

And in the piece of fluff about him sacrificing the civilians, he didn't have to if I recall correctly, he just chose to. And I'm quite certain none of the legions pre-heresy would choose to sacrifice civilians to preserve their own numbers especially with the Emperor watching over them.



Baron Spikey said:


> So the AL didn't face 2 Legions, why say they did and then support your statement with info that contradicts it?



Because they did.

"_The leading ships of Alpharius's fleet were small, fast cruisers and escorts. It did not appear to the White Scars that these would present too much of a threat to them and so it proved. The massed gunnery of the White Scars battle-barges ripped the smaller ships to pieces. The Khan and his officers were confused. They could not understand what the traitors were trying to achieve. As long as they attacked piecemeal and with their smallest ships, the loyal fleet was virtually invulnerable. It did not make any sense.

It made even less sense to the Khan when the larger Alpha Legion warships started to appear. These vessels did not attack but held station at the edge of the system whilst their smaller comrads continued to commit suicide. As the Khan pored over the tactical charts and scanners aboard his flagship, trying to glean the intent of his foe, his officers pleaded with him to give the order to attack. The Primarch resisted their calls- he did not want to commit himself to full-scale battle with the traitors unless it was absolutely necessary.

As this was happening the Space Wolves Legion were fighting a losing battle against the rest of the Alpha Legion fleet. Even though the ships of Russ were trying to evade the larger traitor fleet, they were taking terrible punishment from their gunnery. Again, Russ sent furious communications to Jaghatai Khan requesting his urgent assistance._"


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

Angel of Blood said:


> and the Space Wolves were apparently not full strength either, but not as small as the aforementioned legions.


The SW's weren't understrength, we just didn't need as many warriors to do the job :grin:


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## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Malus Darkblade said:


> Everything about El'Johnson points to him being a very mysterious Primarch whose intent is never fully understood because of his upbringing and his brush with Chaos. He's the only Primarch who has a retinue of xenos/chaos/non-human beings with him as well. So I would say he is quite _different _than his brothers.


Well, the Thousand Sons were using daemons; that's even worse. 




Malus Darkblade said:


> The SW using their fallen ones as fodder doesn't make them unorthodox, just not wasteful of potential weapons.


Maybe, but I get the feeling that the Space Wolves get away with things the other legions don't. Perhaps because of their unflinching loyalty (that they have demonstrated at least once)? Pure speculation, but if Russ had encountered the equivalent of Wulfen within another legion (and not having them himself) I pretty sure he would have had it censored, like he had the Thousand Sons. 

We have read that they have an awful reputation, even among the other legions (some Astartes thinking them to be insane), but you don't hear the Emperor or Malcador reprimanding them. 

In the old Fluff, the Emperor reacted to Horus virus bombing Istvaan III, but how is that much different to Russ' bombing of Prospero? 

Also, it seems Hawser is the only remembrancer (if you can call him that) within the entire legion. How can the Space Wolves say no to taking on remembrancers, when the other legions (quite reluctantly it seems) have them? Especially since the it seems like a big deal to the Emperor. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> And in the piece of fluff about him sacrificing the civilians, he didn't have to if I recall correctly, he just chose to. And I'm quite certain none of the legions pre-heresy would choose to sacrifice civilians to preserve their own numbers especially with the Emperor watching over them.


He did it to save Astartes lives, meaning he had (in his mind) a good reason. When his commander disobeyed the order, the consequence was that more Dark Angels died in the fighting that followed, just like El'Johnson had predicted. 

After having read the two HH books on the Dark Angels, as well as Gav Thorpe's excellent 40k book on them, there is one thing that I think stands out; this Primarch is seriously insecure and paranoid. How a Primarch can feel threatened by his own legion is beyond me. I mean, all other Astartes seem to practically worship their Primarchs. I guess this makes the legion quite different than the others (all secrecy etc.) 

However, how this secrecy etc. translates into unorthodox behavior on the battlefield, I can't really see. From a battlefield perspective, the Dark Angels do not seem that unorthodox, at least to me.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

no pain no gain said:


> Well, the Thousand Sons were using daemons; that's even worse.


I'm obviously talking about Legions Pre-Heresy. Post Heresy they all use Daemons which is normal for a Chaos following legion.



no pain no gain said:


> Maybe, but I get the feeling that the Space Wolves get away with things the other legions don't. Perhaps because of their unflinching loyalty (that they have demonstrated at least once)? Pure speculation, but if Russ had encountered the equivalent of Wulfen within another legion (and not having them himself) I pretty sure he would have had it censored, like he had the Thousand Sons.


My original point was that El'Johnson used tactics that rivaled ones by Alpharius in terms of eccentricity. 

Russ using Wulfen as I said is possibly his way of honoring his those who have succumbed to a flaw in the SW heritage since the Wolves are very reluctant about preventing its members from obtaining some sort of honor/purpose.



no pain no gain said:


> We have read that they have an awful reputation, even among the other legions (some Astartes thinking them to be insane), but you don't hear the Emperor or Malcador reprimanding them.


They were thought to be mostly wild, savage, barbaric and stupid as opposed to insane. That title was attributed mostly to the World Eaters Pre-Heresy who did indeed get reprimanded especially after they destroyed an entire planet's populace partially due to their cybernetic implants.

So did Kurze and his followers get scolded by the Emperor and even had an order to stand trial for their actions as did Magnus and his Thousand Sons. 

The Wolves, while their actions did perhaps seem too brutal at times, paled in comparison to the WE and the NL and they operated within the Emperor's orders while the Thousand Sons strictly broke them by practicing Warp sorcery.



no pain no gain said:


> In the old Fluff, the Emperor reacted to Horus virus bombing Istvaan III, but how is that much different to Russ' bombing of Prospero?


Virus bombing was a legit tactic all the Legions used Pre-Heresy.

And Horus virus bombed Istavan which was full of Loyalist Astartes because he turned to Chaos?



no pain no gain said:


> Also, it seems Hawser is the only remembrancer (if you can call him that) within the entire legion. How can the Space Wolves say no to taking on remembrancers, when the other legions (quite reluctantly it seems) have them? Especially since the it seems like a big deal to the Emperor.


All the Legions were reluctant to do so but obeyed Horus's order to include them wherever they went but it was an order that wasn't heavily forced or I don't think was implied to be taken that seriously. So the Wolves, loyal to the Emperor above all, accepted Horus's command but not that literally while some did like the Emperor's Children who loved the attention.



no pain no gain said:


> He did it to save Astartes lives, meaning he had (in his mind) a good reason. When his commander disobeyed the order, the consequence was that more Dark Angels died in the fighting that followed, just like El'Johnson had predicted.


I didn't read it as him wanting to save Astartes lives, rather not to prolong the campaign because he wanted to be elsewhere _as if _he grew bored, simply using that excuse so that he wouldn't have to bother explaining his intentions whatever they were, to his underlings.



no pain no gain said:


> as well as Gav Thorpe's excellent 40k book on them


lol



no pain no gain said:


> there is one thing that I think stands out; this Primarch is seriously insecure and paranoid. How a Primarch can feel threatened by his own legion is beyond me. I mean, all other Astartes seem to practically worship their Primarchs. I guess this makes the legion quite different than the others (all secrecy etc.)
> 
> However, how this secrecy etc. translates into unorthodox behavior on the battlefield, I can't really see. From a battlefield perspective, the Dark Angels do not seem that unorthodox, at least to me.


His paranoia is another reason that feeds into his eccentricity and is probably due to his upbringing in the Chaos tainted wilds of Caliban before he was found amongst other things. 

I suppose it's mostly my opinion but from what I've read, the Lion has always struck me as someone who did not think like a human and was quite possibly the most distanced of all the Primarchs. 

His encounter with the Chaos hating aliens prior to being found by the Emperor is probably why he was resistant to being corrupted despite being on a planet so close to the EoT and infested with Chaos.


----------



## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Malus Darkblade said:


> no pain no gain said:
> 
> 
> > _Well, the Thousand Sons were using daemons; that's even worse. _
> ...


Please read the book _the Thousand Son. _The small tutelaries (spelling?) were daemons, and they were used before the heresy. 


Malus Darkblade said:


> My original point was that El'Johnson used tactics that rivaled ones by Alpharius in terms of eccentricity.


Is that your own assesment, or what? You make it sound as if it is fact, which it is not. I clearly do not concur with _your assessment_.



Malus Darkblade said:


> They were thought to be mostly wild, savage, barbaric and stupid as opposed to insane. That title was attributed mostly to the World Eaters Pre-Heresy who did indeed get reprimanded especially after they destroyed an entire planet's populace partially due to their cybernetic implants.
> 
> So did Kurze and his followers get scolded by the Emperor and even had an order to stand trial for their actions as did Magnus and his Thousand Sons.


Nope. When the Mournival was scrapping with Sigismund over which legion was the strongest, Tarik said that the Space Wolves were the strongest but also that they, of course, were insane. He said it in a way that made it pretty obvious that this was the general opinion, and none of the other (very proud and prickly) captains seemed to object to that statement. 

Your other comment is exactly my point! The Space Wolves were not reprimanded, while the other legions were...



Malus Darkblade said:


> The Wolves, while their actions did perhaps seem too brutal at times, paled in comparison to the WE and the NL and they operated within the Emperor's orders while the Thousand Sons strictly broke them by practicing Warp sorcery.


The fact is, we have very little information on the World Eaters. For example, why didn't Tarik say that it was the World Eaters who were insane? 

When a commander of an entire expedition almost prefers to bleed his army white before asking the Space Wolves for assistance, there is something wrong, wouldn't you say? 


Malus Darkblade said:


> Virus bombing was a legit tactic all the Legions used Pre-Heresy.
> 
> And Horus virus bombed Istavan which was full of Loyalist Astartes because he turned to Chaos?


 I think the old fluff that I referenced mentioned that it was the civilian deaths (several billion _humans_) that the Emperor reacted to. Virus bombs were never meant for human populations. 

However, there is a possibility i remember it wrong, or that fluff has changed since the old fluff was printed.



Malus Darkblade said:


> no pain no gain said:
> 
> 
> > Also, it seems Hawser is the only remembrancer (if you can call him that) within the entire legion. How can the Space Wolves say no to taking on remembrancers, when the other legions (quite reluctantly it seems) have them? Especially since the it seems like a big deal to the Emperor.
> ...


I'm sorry, but what you just said makes little sense. Did they, or did they not obey the command? I get the feeling that Hawser was pretty much alone in the legion. 

Also, it has been stated that the remembrancer thing _was _a big deal. I even think Malcador mentioned it at some point in one of the books. 


Malus Darkblade said:


> I didn't read it as him wanting to save Astartes lives, rather not to prolong the campaign because he wanted to be elsewhere _as if _he grew bored, simply using that excuse so that he wouldn't have to bother explaining his intentions whatever they were, to his underlings.


Interesting interpretation. I seem to remember that El'Johnson was quite angry about the Dark Angels casualties. Again, I have to say that my interpretation of what was written is way different than yours. I believe he did not value civilian life enough to be willing to risk his Astartes. I don't have the book with me, so I can't look for exact details. I only remember thinking (when I read it) that he was cold-hearted, not that he was capricious. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> no pain no gain said:
> 
> 
> > as well as Gav Thorpe's excellent 40k book on them
> ...


Ok, I guess I had that coming. However, I honestly believe it was an excellent book. One of the very best to come out of the Black Library period. I guess my comment could be seen as ironic, but that was not my intention. 

To be honest, I think Gav Thorpe is doing a good job, it's just one little audio tape I have grievence with :grin:. That's the reason I felt obligated to point out that I really liked the book. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> His paranoia is another reason that feeds into his eccentricity and is probably due to his upbringing in the Chaos tainted wilds of Caliban before he was found amongst other things.
> 
> I suppose it's mostly my opinion but from what I've read, the Lion has always struck me as someone who did not think like a human and was quite possibly the most distanced of all the Primarchs.
> 
> His encounter with the Chaos hating aliens prior to being found by the Emperor is probably why he was resistant to being corrupted despite being on a planet so close to the EoT and infested with Chaos.


Well, he at least managed to become best friends with Leman Russ, admittedly after having knocked Russ out :grin:. 

It seems like several Primarchs were loners, like Conrad, Angron and Perturabo. And Magnus and Lorgar seem to have had few friends outside their little circle of two :biggrin:.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

no pain no gain said:


> Please read the book _the Thousand Son. _The small tutelaries (spelling?) were daemons, and they were used before the heresy.


I wouldn't classify them as Daemons as they had no allegiance to a certain Chaos power, rather they were enslaved sentient Warp beings. 

Though I could be wrong but nevertheless, I think they were allowed because they were minor and very much under control.



no pain no gain said:


> Is that your own assesment, or what? You make it sound as if it is fact, which it is not. I clearly do not concur with _your assessment_.














no pain no gain said:


> Nope. When the Mournival was scrapping with Sigismund over which legion was the strongest, Tarik said that the Space Wolves were the strongest but also that they, of course, were insane. He said it in a way that made it pretty obvious that this was the general opinion, and none of the other (very proud and prickly) captains seemed to object to that statement.


Yeah... one random Astartes says something doesn't mean anything.



no pain no gain said:


> Your other comment is exactly my point! The Space Wolves were not reprimanded, while the other legions were...


The SW did not push the boundaries as the WE/NL did. 



no pain no gain said:


> The fact is, we have very little information on the World Eaters. For example, why didn't Tarik say that it was the World Eaters who were insane?


Dunno, why didn't he say Mortarion's breath smells bad from inhaling poison 24/7?



no pain no gain said:


> When a commander of an entire expedition almost prefers to bleed his army white before asking the Space Wolves for assistance, there is something wrong, wouldn't you say?


The same was applied to most of the Legions Pre-Heresy, their assistance required only when all other options have been exhausted. The Alpha Legion were called in when the regular humans couldn't break the planet in _Legion_.



no pain no gain said:


> Virus bombs were never meant for human populations.


But they were.



no pain no gain said:


> I'm sorry, but what you just said makes little sense. Did they, or did they not obey the command? I get the feeling that Hawser was pretty much alone in the legion.


Horus was like 'sup guys sorry but I need some reporters to tag along with you all so I can beef up the image of Astartes across the imperium, don't be hatin on me' and so they all incorporated reporters/a reporter, some more than others because imo Horus's didn't want to really enforce this order that strictly.



no pain no gain said:


> It seems like several Primarchs were loners, like Conrad, Angron and Perturabo. And Magnus and Lorgar seem to have had few friends outside their little circle of two :biggrin:.


To me the Lion strikes me as someone very alienated from his brothers, not necessarily moody/emo or socially awkward but simply alienated. Like he could be all smiles and laughs upfront if the situation required it but deep down he would be a completely different person.


----------



## no pain no gain (Mar 10, 2011)

*Hmm*



Malus Darkblade said:


> I wouldn't classify them as Daemons as they had no allegiance to a certain Chaos power, rather they were enslaved sentient Warp beings.
> 
> Though I could be wrong but nevertheless, I think they were allowed because they were minor and very much under control.


Thus, they were even worse... 










? 
Try to distinguish facts from opinon when you argue, just a tip...



Malus Darkblade said:


> Yeah... one random Astartes says something doesn't mean anything.


Ha ha, you're funny. That's exactly what it does. It proves my point, which was that even other Astartes thought the Space Wolves to be insane. 




Malus Darkblade said:


> The SW did not push the boundaries as the WE/NL did.


Ok, since you obviously don't get it, here we go again. You THINK that is the case. I DO NOT. Since you state it as facts, but don't back it up with any concrete examples or arguments, you come of as, well not very trustworthy. 
Example: "Didn't you know that the Dark Angels are the most vicious legion?" "Wow, I had no idea. Thanks for telling me. Btway, where did you read that?" "Oh, that's just what I think..."



Malus Darkblade said:


> Dunno, why didn't he say Mortarion's breath smells bad from inhaling poison 24/7?


Because no other Primarch has been accused of having bad breath. You say that the World Eaters are insane, but it was not the World Eaters that were given as an example. Now you’re just trying to be obstinate…



Malus Darkblade said:


> The same was applied to most of the Legions Pre-Heresy, their assistance required only when all other options have been exhausted. The Alpha Legion were called in when the regular humans couldn't break the planet in _Legion_.


Not at all. The legions were the vanguard. You’re just plucking things out of thin air (i.e. _the Legion_). The very reason the Emperor created the Astartes in the first place was for them to lead the crusade. Read some other books besides Legion and you’ll see that the human contingents usually supported the Astartes and not the other way around. Heck, there are more examples of Astartes captains leading entire expeditions than there are examples of Primarchs taking orders (which is just stupid and makes absolutely no sense, considering they make up the ruling council, together with Malcador and the Emperor). Do you really think that Astartes, being so hungry for glory, would sit back and let the "humans" take all the glory? It goes against everything we have read about the Primarchs and the Astartes. 

Please give me one reference outside of the Space Wolves, where an expedition commander hesitates about asking for Astartes help. The fact of the matter is that most the Astartes were held in awe, not disgust, and I believe most expeditions would have loved to have them. We have no reference at all of any human allies wanting nothing to do with the Alpha Legion or the Dark Angels. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> But they were.


When were they used against human populations before Istvaan III?




Malus Darkblade said:


> Horus was like 'sup guys sorry but I need some reporters to tag along with you all so I can beef up the image of Astartes across the imperium, don't be hatin on me' and so they all incorporated reporters/a reporter, some more than others because imo Horus's didn't want to really enforce this order that strictly.


Uhm, no. You have no reference that Horus told the other Primarchs that. The remembrancers were in fact a big thing for the Emperor/Malcador. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> To me the Lion strikes me as someone very alienated from his brothers, not necessarily moody/emo or socially awkward but simply alienated. Like he could be all smiles and laughs upfront if the situation required it but deep down he would be a completely different person.


 I agree that his upbringing probably led him to be more layered than most of his brothers. Although I don’t see him ever being all smile and laughs. Have you ever read a passage where he is “all smile and laughs”?


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