# The Dark Angels



## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Now this is a chapter that has a rather colorful history for their current brooding existance. But you really have to appreciatte the contraversy in their history as it really adds to their presence. So, I wanted to open up a dialogue about the conspiracy theories surrounding the Dark Angels Chapter. 

Do you think the Lion purposefully delayed his assistance to Terra to see who would triumph during the Heresy?

Do you think that Luther was really possessed by Daemons or was it something else?

If Luther did indeed betray his chapter and Lion, why is he being kept alive? 

What do you think happened to Lion between his combat with Luther and when the dust settled? 

Do you think the Lion is really on the Rock?

Given the mysteries behind Cypher, do you think it's possible he may actually be Lion given that he may possess the sword of the Primarch? (Consider for a second whether or not Cypher and Lion ever existed at the same time and how Lion may or may not have ever been recovered)

So conspire away!


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## pyroanarchist (Feb 29, 2008)

I'll start with Cypher. You've got a big hole in your fluff here. The term Cypher was given to one member of the chapter at all times throughout thier history. Whichever Dark Angel held a certain position (can't remember what the position was at the moment) was given the name Cypher and his identity was taken from him. The Cypher running rampant today as a fallen angel is the Cypher that held that position when the heresy occurred. That would make him one of the few veteran DA that fell. Most of the fallen angels are those that were commanded by Luther back at the homeworld, so they were newer recruites.

There is a lot of conspiracy surrounding the Dark Angels though. Cypher could be on a quest to save the Imperium according to some fluff. He could also be on his way to kill the Emperor according to other references. I really don't see any relationship to him and the Lion though. He may be carrying the Lion's sword, but he never wields it. The other theory behind the sword is that it is a Daemon weapon that Cypher hasn't fully mastered yet so he cannot wield it without serious reprecussions.

I don't have any guesses as to where the Lion himself is. There are so many Primarchs who have just dissappeared who's to say?

The story behind Luther being kept alive is semi-sound. The Lion didn't kill him because he made Luther realize his mistakes and fight against the chaos that had invaded him, but left him a shell of a man. Because of Luther's insanity sometimes he has valid predictions, so I can see that as a good reason to keep him alive and locked away, but it does go against everything the Imperium allows, so there is room for arguement here.

I do think the Dark Angels held back when the attack on Terra happened. I think the Lion was torn between Horus and the Emperor and didn't want to decide so he waited and let fate decide the battle. With that theory you could argue that Luther was doing the same, but thought Chaos would triumph and got a head start on Deamonhood. Thus, the Lion felt bad about the situation because he would have embraced Chaos had Horus won the fight, therefore he allowed Luther to live.

There are tons of dark, shadowed, events in the Dark Angels history, so who knows, but you can definately let your mind run rampant with theories.


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## revenant13 (Feb 15, 2008)

Revelations said:


> 1)Do you think the Lion purposefully delayed his assistance to Terra to see who would triumph during the Heresy?
> 
> 2)Do you think that Luther was really possessed by Daemons or was it something else?
> 
> ...


1) i remember reading somewhere that he did purposefully delay to see who would win. he was loafing around caliban or something. then the fallen angels opened fire with the orbital guns on the Lion's fleet and sorta made the decision for him.

2) i per sonally dont think he was _possessed_ per se, but he did let himself get heavily influenced by it and made him go kinda crazy.

3) cause the Lion is still alive? i have no clue.

4) whatever was screwing around with Luther was exorcised, and like pyroanarchist said, just left an empty shell.

5) yes. why? because some GW fluff said so.

6) no, because then it wouldnt be said that the Lion is in the rock. that would make contradicting fluff.

yeah, i dont know too much about DA, but ive read a lot about them. those are my minor conclusions.


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## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

i read somewhere that the DA also had the Lion in stasis in the rock, as well as luther. i dont really know how much credibility that has though.

also, cypher may not use the sword in combat simply because it is broken, and he's off to get it fixed.


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## thomas2 (Nov 4, 2007)

cccp said:


> i read somewhere that the DA also had the Lion in stasis in the rock, as well as luther. i dont really know how much credibility that has though.


Both of these are official. Luther in stasis is in the current codex, and I've heard the Lion being in the Rock often referenced, though I'm not sure of the source, and it isn't in the current codex.


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## ACoz (Oct 23, 2007)

If I recall correctly, the fluff in the old Angels of Death Codex (the one that covered both BA and DA), back in 2nd Ed.... does indeed say for a fact that the Lion is in stasis deep in the Rock (though I'm fairly sure no one but the Watchers know about it) and Luther is also kept prisoner, as well.

I think the whole point Luther is supposed to keep saying what he does about the Lion being close and returning and all that is because somehow, Luther feels the presence of his Primarch, actually being there on the Rock.

The whole thing about a specific DA being renamed as 'the Cypher' or whatever is really, really new addition to the fluff, so I can't really comment. All I know is that the Fallen known as Cypher has some sort of mysterious mission he's on, and he's got the Lion's (broken) sword.

The old fluff and rules about Cypher being protected by an unknown power have made for some great conspiracy theories, going back to the really old days of when I first started collecting GW stuff in the 80s with the Star-Child and such.

Personally, I think it would be a perfectly reasonable thing if Cypher is trying to get to Terra to kill the Emporer, because that will herald either His rebirth or the birth of a new, incredibly powerful new Chaos Power called The Emporer.

The beauty of that theory is that the loyal marines try to prevent this, all the while without knowing exactly what it is they are opposing.


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## ugh (Mar 21, 2008)

IMHO

1) No, DA are as loyal as any chapter and have a history to prove it. Seeing how they still hunt the fallen it's very doubtfull they would ever consider turning in to Chaos and after what happened during the heresy it's quite possible a delay is understandable.

2) I think yes. Luther wasn't exactly posessed but he was jealous and annoying voices in his head convinced him to embrace chaos.

3) As a link to the times of the great betrayal + it is said he says something prophetic once in a while. The second the last Fallen is redeemed Luther dies.

4) Luther greviously wounded the Lion IIRC... So probably a coma.

5) A certain NO. A primarch is a giant even for Astrates standarts with incredible speed, strengh and skills and the Lion was one of the best. There are stats for Cypher and he is just an erant Space Marine with 2 pistols, a sword he never uses and a "phase out" rule.


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## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

Not exactly answering the questions, but there's a thread here that I think is seriously the best fan-fiction take on the DAs' history I've ever read. 

:fluffy cyclops:


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Red Orc said:


> Not exactly answering the questions, but there's a thread here that I think is seriously the best fan-fiction take on the DAs' history I've ever read.
> 
> :fluffy cyclops:


That's a pretty interesting take on the story. As you can see, even evident in this thread here, there is some minor difference in interpretation of the story. But I think that just adds to the flavor a little bit doesn't it, because even it "GW said so!", GW also said many other things that have been adjusted later or left ambiguous. 

Some other questions to throw out there...

1. What you do you think Sword Cypher carries is?

2. Who is Cyphers patron protector? 

3. Given the rules at the time; why do you think Cypher was allowed to be fielded in an Imperial Guard army? (Interested fluff there eh?)

I'm sure more to come.


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## Ljohnson (Apr 14, 2008)

Here is some of the earliest "FLUFF" about the Dark Angels. Pages 12 and 13 of the 2nd ED. Codex. 

When the Horus Hersey broke out both the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves were "far away fighting for humanity... Hearing of the potenially disastrous proceedings taking place around Earth, the two gerenals hurried back as quickly as they could. Coming into Earths orbit they realized they had arrived to late."

So there was no intentional delay by L.Johnson he was fighting with the Space Wolves in combined arms operations.

Luther was under the influence of the Chaos Powers at least in the original fluff. When L. Jonhson and Luther have the final fight(page 13)

It states "Luther aided by the powers of Chaos, unleashed a furious psychic attack that knocked Johnson to his knees and left him mortally wounded."

The watchers carried the body of L.Johnson away. The Watchers are those little robed guys you see in some of the pictures. Like the one that holds the lions helm.

Other than that the Luther stuff is pretty close.

On page 14 of the 2nd ed book there is a paragraph stated "The Final Secret"

Basically it says that buried in a sealed chamber within the rock is Lion El'Johnson and only the Emperor himself knows hes there. "He lies sleeping waiting with the watchers in the the dark for that time when he will be needed once again to defend the Imperium against its enemies."

Cypher old fluff he is on a mission to kill the Emperor.

On page 89-90 of the DESCENT of ANGELS they explain what the origin of Cypher is.
It was an honorific title given in the Order. The person was called the Lord Cypher. Dropped his real name. Was close to the higher ups in the Order. ETC.

The sword he carries is as the model anyway is said to be the broken Lion Sword of the Primarch. 

Remember this is alot of older fluff and GW likesto change things up a bit from time to time. Or explain things away. 

Like the Deathwing for instance were pretty native american themed if you will if feathers and war paint if you can get your hands on Deathwing rules for the old Space hulk game it explains their origins. The Dark Angels themselves were a little more native american themed. Just look at all the old fluff hence all the feathers and war paint. Then when the revised a little theymore for the monastic theme. 

If you want to know more I can tell you just ask.

Playing the game for 17 years. Playing Dark Angels since their first Codex circa 1995.

L.Johnson -"This is not Hersey, I will not repent!"


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## The Lions Sword (May 16, 2008)

The Lord Cypher in The Order is a person thats sole responsibility was to make sure that the traditions and the MEANING of the traditions persist throughout that ages. As described as such in the new book Horus Heresy: Descent of Angels. Meaning as such that the Lord Cypher doesn't hold per say true power within The Order but is more of a regulator of the initiations and rituals.


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## sunnyswipe (Feb 25, 2008)

so the dark angels drove the rock all the way to the cadian system during the 13th black crusade and the lion STILL didnt bother waking up and fighting chaos?
you gotta wonder how much of a lion he really is.... sucker-punch's leman russ....late for the final battle on earth...half his legion go over to chaos....his best mate possesed by deamons.....does absolutely nothing during the latest black crusade....


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

with the revelations of "legion" maybe dark angels will turn to chaos and alpha legion will be revealed to be loyalists. just a idea!


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## Grand Master Belial (Jun 4, 2008)

Revelations said:


> Do you think the Lion purposefully delayed his assistance to Terra to see who would triumph during the Heresy?


No, the source of this rumor is unreliable at best with known predjudices and biases that haven't been corroborated by another source.



Revelations said:


> Do you think that Luther was really possessed by Daemons or was it something else?


I can see him being subjugated by a Daemon as its withdrawl would have been able to let Luther's mind break. If he was a Deamon Prince, then he would not of broken as he gave in willingly. The suggested Battle of Wills gives rise to a second presence of mind.



Revelations said:


> If Luther did indeed betray his chapter and Lion, why is he being kept alive?


In old Fluff, it was a Rite of Passage for each Supreme Grand Master to try to get Luther to confess. He continually says the Lion will forgive him. This presents an enigma to the DA. If they kill Luther, then his promise repeated through the ages is null and void. Leaving him alive leaves a glimmer of hope that the Lion would indeed return someday.



Revelations said:


> What do you think happened to Lion between his combat with Luther and when the dust settled?


The Watchers of the Dark swept him up as the planet was ripped apart since they would not have been affected by the Warp Storm in the same sense as everyone else. The hidden area on the Rock is one of their dwellings. That's why the DA have not found it in 10,000 years.



Revelations said:


> Do you think the Lion is really on the Rock?


The Codex fluff says yes so he is.



Revelations said:


> Given the mysteries behind Cypher, do you think it's possible he may actually be Lion given that he may possess the sword of the Primarch? (Consider for a second whether or not Cypher and Lion ever existed at the same time and how Lion may or may not have ever been recovered)


As the Codex places the Lion firmly in the Rock, this one is false. Cypher has a mysterious benefactor that whisks him away, so it is possible that Cypher was there to witness the battle and as the planet tore itself apart Cypher grabbed the pieces of the sword as his benefactor protected him and then whisked him away. 

My little conspiracy theory is that the same mysterious benefactor of Cypher's is also responsible for scattering the Fallen into time and space.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

i would like to add another side of luther and the fallen's story. in one piece of fluff it is stated that upon hearing of the heresy luther ordered his men to bulwark the planet to make it more defensible. once the lion returned, for fear that they had turned, the loyalists on the surface fired upon the lion's fleet. they thought the lion and his men had turned along with horus due to his closeness to his brother horus so they attacked. i believe that cypher's benefactor is the emperor, he isnt really all chaos like when he is seen and i think, if the starchild theory is right, that he is trying to get back to terra to use the lionsword to kill the emperor so he could be reborn.


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## Ljohnson (Apr 14, 2008)

I believe that was in a piece of fluff( his novel) written by Gavin Thorpe. This was told by a Fallen Angel. So believe what you will. It just adds to the murky past of the Legion. I'll look it up tonight in my DA fluff. 

And "Grand Master Belial" is right, Luther was possessed not a Daemon Prince.


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## Komrad (Oct 30, 2008)

What would be the best DA novel for Info/fluff on them cus my knowledge isnt the best on them :no:


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## thomas2 (Nov 4, 2007)

I suppose Descent of Angels from the HH series would be a good one, but it is set before the Heresy, and much of it is set before Caliban was even discovered by the Imperium. Still it's good for some info on their early days, and on Luther and the Lion.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

Theres a book called "angels of darkness" and its all about the DA's, it does say that Lion'el waited to see who would win the Horus Heresy so that technicly makes hi traitor, in the book it also says that luther and Lion'el are both being held on the rock


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

you seem abit behind on your fluff on several different thread ferrus manus. that novel has to be taken with a pinch of salt as you are talking about what a traitor is telling his interrigators as so to justify his actions. angels of darkness is taken from the perspective of the traitor and if you believe the word of the mutant, alien and heretic then you are no better than they!


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

Revelations said:


> Now this is a chapter that has a rather colorful history for their current brooding existance. But you really have to appreciatte the contraversy in their history as it really adds to their presence. So, I wanted to open up a dialogue about the conspiracy theories surrounding the Dark Angels Chapter.
> 
> 1) Do you think the Lion purposefully delayed his assistance to Terra to see who would triumph during the Heresy?
> 
> ...


1) Probably. El'Jonson was extremely intelligent and possessed an unparalleled grasp of the art of war, so I think it's not too much of a stretch to imagine him seeing which way the tide would turn.

2) I think Luther realized what was happening and righteous fervor gave him strength. That, or the insanity that comes from realizing your best friend and ally has betrayed everything you thought you stood for.

3) Perhaps the Inner Circle is entertaining the thought that their Primarch didn't exactly shoot from the hip. I personally think that the Marines of the 41st millennium are much more loyal to the Imperium as a whole than those of the 31st...and that's really saying something. The Inner Circle might be keeping Luther alive to as to divine the truth of the matter.

4) Perhaps the Lion had a sudden attack of conscious. It's true he possessed great ambition, but nowhere near as much as Horus, and so might have retained some semblance of a conscience. It might have dawned on him that he had betrayed his father and humanity. Or not.

5) Highly unlikely. Although I'm sure the Watchers know where he is.

6) Since the Lion's corpse is nowhere to be found and we don't have any stories of him wandering off into the Warp (i.e. Russ), it is certainly possible that Cypher is, in fact, El'Jonson making his way to the Emperor to save him by releasing him from his dead mortal shell. While this would undoubtedly catapult the Imperium into a state of anarchy, it would allow the Emperor to return and save the day once the Imperium had weathered the storm, similar to what happened during the Dark Age of Technology; few, if any, planets were capable of long-range exploration and communication, and many planets had been subjugated or decimated by aliens. Granted, if it happens this time (Warhammer 41k) it would be much, much worse because of the added threats: Necrons, Tyranids, Tau, and of course, the Chaos Marines, who are now a much bigger presence in the galaxy. 
We can understand why El'Jonson would do such a thing, however. After he fought Luther, he simply vanished. This could be because of at least two reason in my mind;

A) He was carried off my the Ruinous Powers like the rest of the Fallen, and having seen exactly what he'd unintentionally allied with, was driven mad and consumed by a singular purpose: to earn his father's forgiveness.

B) He immediately realized what he had done in betraying the Emperor and Luther, and escaped Caliban by some means. Assuming the handle "Cypher" to misdirect others from his true identity (chiefly, his former legion), he embarked upon a quest to atone for his sin.

That's why I love this Chapter so much! There's so much W-T-F going on you can think up all kinds of crazy stuff :laugh:


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

i personally think that the lion wasnt holding off to see who won between the emperor and horus but came across Russ in need of help and as much has they had a rivalry i think the lion had the utmost respect as a warrior for Russ. he could see the odds were stacked against him and would possibly and more than likely gonna get killed so the lion wanted to save his brother and then go on to terra together and save the emperor.
not sure what happened to luther but no doubt some conspirator was whispering in his ear and being bored stiff on caliban decided to change sides and when the lion returned all hell broke loose.
i dont think we have long to wait to find out because the fallen angels novel is out this year and then maybe we will get some answers


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Revelations said:


> So conspire away!


I think that is the beauty of the Dark Angel chapter, and perhaps the most tragic element of them. If you look at the images of them from the Horus Heresy artwork, they are presented as these great knights. In the Angels of Darkness novel, Astelan (one of the fallen) talks about how the first legion were the great knights of the Imperium during the Great Crusade. They were a shining example to all, the glorious first legion.

Now, they are so increadibly secretive that deceit is a way of life for them. They are more like a secret society then a sect of warriors. The DA seem so intent on keeping their secret that some of them turned traitor that it has consumed them. They will kill anything in their way to keep it, such as firing on another chapter. In fact... how do we know that the Fallen ARE the secret they are trying so hard to keep? With them, it could be an extremely complex ruse to hide some other dark secret (such as the primarch not chosing a side).

This is why they are so tragic. The secrets are so thick around them, they have lost sight of their true purpose, to defend humanity. So I ask, do the DA hunt the 'Fallen' because they are the enemy or because, in truth, the DA chapter are those that have truly fallen.



> _Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you._
> 
> ---Friedrich Nietzsche, translated into english and paraphrased


And THAT is one of many reasons why the DA, and Warhammer 40k, are so freaking cool!


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

What is worse than your brother betraying you? If your brother betrayed you, would you not be so overwhelmed with righteous anger and fury that you would travel to the ends of the universe to see them brought to justice at your hand? I know i would. And so i say that is what they are doing, hunting down those who were closest to them and hurt them the deepest. And if the DA were to have fallen, im sure they would not have defended the Imperium as long or as many times as they have.

As for Luther, he can only be killed once he has repented and since he won't repent cannot be killed...killing him without repentance would likely make him a martyr in the eyes of the followers of chaos...and im pretty convinced he was possessed by some form of chaos 'cause he brought a primarch to his knees, a primarch who could slay countless SM's, just doesn't seem logical unless you throw godlike chaos power in there!

Choose a side and stick with it as the DA have, they fight chaos and seek to redeem the fallen who betrayed everything they were and more! All hail the mighty first legion!


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## Commissar Maximus (Sep 20, 2008)

Angel of Retribution said:


> What is worse than your brother betraying you? If your brother betrayed you, would you not be so overwhelmed with righteous anger and fury that you would travel to the ends of the universe to see them brought to justice at your hand? I know i would. And so i say that is what they are doing, hunting down those who were closest to them and hurt them the deepest. And if the DA were to have fallen, im sure they would not have defended the Imperium as long or as many times as they have.
> 
> As for Luther, he can only be killed once he has repented and since he won't repent cannot be killed...killing him without repentance would likely make him a martyr in the eyes of the followers of chaos...and im pretty convinced he was possessed by some form of chaos 'cause he brought a primarch to his knees, a primarch who could slay countless SM's, just doesn't seem logical unless you throw godlike chaos power in there!
> 
> Choose a side and stick with it as the DA have, they fight chaos and seek to redeem the fallen who betrayed everything they were and more! All hail the mighty first legion!


I Hail the first legion!!! I couldnt have said anything better then this to express my view.The idea of the Lion waiting is pure heresy to me:threaten:
The fallen shall repent!!!


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## 1001st Son (Feb 28, 2009)

I've always liked the DA, and even though I'd like to go on a rant reaaaally bad, these peeps have pretty much covered it.

Even though it would be pretty cool if Cypher was Lion, didn't they make it canon that he is interred in the Rock?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lion_El'Jonson


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Angel of Retribution said:


> What is worse than your brother betraying you? If your brother betrayed you, would you not be so overwhelmed with righteous anger and fury that you would travel to the ends of the universe to see them brought to justice at your hand? I know i would. And so i say that is what they are doing, hunting down those who were closest to them and hurt them the deepest. And if the DA were to have fallen, im sure they would not have defended the Imperium as long or as many times as they have.
> 
> As for Luther, he can only be killed once he has repented and since he won't repent cannot be killed...killing him without repentance would likely make him a martyr in the eyes of the followers of chaos...and im pretty convinced he was possessed by some form of chaos 'cause he brought a primarch to his knees, a primarch who could slay countless SM's, just doesn't seem logical unless you throw godlike chaos power in there!
> 
> Choose a side and stick with it as the DA have, they fight chaos and seek to redeem the fallen who betrayed everything they were and more! All hail the mighty first legion!


Actually i would say that the book itself is actually pretty acurate. Its not told by the perspective of the fallen its actually told by Chaplain Boreas and his interagation and lost fate in his chapter. "What is worse than betraying your own brother...?" Well worse is when you actually following your brother in doing something that is wrong. The DA's have a long history of being somewhat selfish. During one of the Ork capaigns he tried to sacrifice a city of millions just to save a few marines. He also put to sacrifice large portions of Leman Russ's legions in the last siege they were together. The Lion is really a scum bag. Fact! he definitley was up to something uncouth when the fighting of terra was happening.

Some like to defend the lion by giving one or several of the few points.

1. The Lion was off fighting Chaos in other worlds.
counter: okay really, so i guess the fate of humanity no longer rests on the beacon of humanity (terra) and the emperor. Plus, now what? all of a sudden he grew a concscience for these worlds he never cared for to begin with?

2.The Lion was ambushed by the Alpha Legion
counter: wow, so i guess Pee Wee Hermanson is the smartest guy in humanity. So the Lion must have taken stupid pills to get ambushed the way he did. If i remember correctly he was the smartest primarch. so wtf?

3. The Lion was smart and was planning a big strategy
counter: well, he must have been really out of the zone for a long ass time. He was so close to terra, and with all that strategizing I guess he didn't realize the emperor was about to lose. Keep in mind, if Horus hadn't lowered his shields, this battle... would have been over. So wtf was the Lion thinking!

Theres a reason why Angels of Darkness was made. The man does not worship chaos obviously if they didn't discover any chaos worshipping of any source when they took him. So thats gone. Plus the fact that a Chaplain! Lost his fate in his chapter! Thats something to think about! The Chaplain doesnt really deny anything either. He only asks another form of why. which means that a lot of what the fallen says is true.

One more thing. The Dark Angels really don't defend the Imperium. More than anything, they just havn't sided with chaos. Because of that, they are considered loyal. That in itself is fact. There is little to no evidence anywhere where they have helped worlds from being taken by other races or any heroics. Thats really weird. But the one deed they do for sure... hunt the loyal fallen. Because thats what they think is more important. The fate of the fallen wether inocent or chaotic, is more important to them than the defense of the imperium. They proved that when they blew up a whole crusade of black templar in their ships. Thats fucken bullshit. You just know theres something really fucked up about that legion. Its not chaos, but its something even more disgusting.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

sorry ckcrawford but i would like to disagree with you on one point. in the time frame of now in 41st millenium the Dark Angels are loyal. it has been established, but back then during the great crusade it think thier loyalties were easily swayed. the lion grew up in a forest tainted by chaos, and i think it had a serious effect on him. he was a selfish bastard and we all know it, there are sources that clearly state how he treated terran marines worse than Calibanite ones. who the fuck would do that? all i know is that the dark angels in the now are loyal and i think that is why they are trying to cover up the fallen, they are ashamed their ancestors were on the fence and fired on their own.


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