# New Chaos Codex Poll



## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

I'm going to be interesred in how many folks dig it, and how many hate it.

A lot of folks are bitching about it, a lot are saying they dig it.

I want to see some numbers on this!


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## Cadian81st (Dec 24, 2006)

I think this is a step in the right direction for GW. Chaos has been sorely needing an update for a while, so it's nice that they are pretty much re-releasing the entire model range as well as the codex. I shall reserve final judement until it hits the shelves, but it looks good so far.


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## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

nice models, no more iron warriors or army infiltrating alpha legion. not much to whinge about imo, but i havent actually been bothered to read it yet.


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

The way I see it, Chaos Space marines were WAY WAYYY overpowered and needed a leash in order to be at least remotely balanced with the other armies.

What I don't care for is the overwhelming generic'ism of the Chaos Legions and Daemons, but at least it's at least somewhat balanced in comparison to Space Marines.

In this version: Daemons are daemons, whatever you call them, nurglings, bloodletters, daemonettes...they are just minor daemons now. Bloodthirsters, Lord of Change, etc...just a major Daemon now. 

Plague Marines, Thousand Sons, Berserkers, Noise Marines...all simply troop choices now.

I dunno. I think it screws up people wanting to make a pure Death Guard Army or Wold Eaters, or Word Bearers army a bit...but then...it doesn't.

Take your Plague Marines as troop choices, take your HQ and model him up as a nurgle guy, take possessed nurgle-looking guys and nurglings (lesser daemons) and you have a Death Guard force...and you get more choices now for Fast Attack and Heavies too.


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## Firewolf (Jan 22, 2007)

>> Have i missed something? Has the dex been realesed, or are you lot bought it at games day or summit? Not all have the book, so im just going to com plain about how unfair, and cruel, and shitty and etc etc etc. you lot are. :x


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## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

of course we havent. some people have just aquired them in ways that heresy online does not endorse.


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## rokassan (Jan 24, 2007)

I havent seen it yet, but Im sure it'll have improvements. I dont like losing Vet skills,wargear and mutated hull, but what can you do. I love the Idea of the future Demon codex. I also dont like losing the sections with the non-cult traitor legions. They are the heart and soul of 40k.


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## Cadian81st (Dec 24, 2006)

cccp_one said:


> of course we havent. some people have just aquired them in ways that heresy online does not endorse.


Then turns around and does shamelessly anyway.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

View my rantings in "Chaos Troops." for an explanation.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

I like it quite a bit actually. Only the Possessed seem pointless (with other units being cheaper and more effective for less points) so far and there is now a reason to take everything in the book. I am also HUGELY glad to be rid of the ancient enemies rules as I never did like the idea that I couldn't take a full mix of units in all parts of the FOC.

Oh and my Thousand Sons kick ass again. 'Nuff said


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

firewolf said:


> >> Have i missed something? Has the dex been realesed, or are you lot bought it at games day or summit? Not all have the book, so im just going to com plain about how unfair, and cruel, and shitty and etc etc etc. you lot are. :x


Actually we all got copies as part of a super-secret sect that you aren't a part of. Unfortunately you have to wait until october for it. Sorry.



Just Joking.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Its an improvement, can't really be bothered to explain why, just read all the moaning and its an obvious improvement


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## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

there is a lot of whinging as the uber powergamer death lists have gone now. other than that i cant see much wrong with it.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Heh, I am already starting to see the cries of cheese and the book isn't even out yet. Apparently the Lash of Submission is cheese, AP3 bolters are cheese, mixing marks and icons is cheese.... it never ends.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

And the problem with cheese is?

Heaven forbid that a codex should be fluffy and keeping with the background aye guys.

But seriously, the main thing I wasn't keen on was the deamons and I've got over that now. The only thing was asthetic only adn doesn't actually effect the playing of the race.


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

> Heh, I am already starting to see the cries of cheese and the book isn't even out yet. Apparently the Lash of Submission is cheese, AP3 bolters are cheese, mixing marks and icons is cheese.... it never ends.


From a guard players perspective the list is awesome. 

Lash of Submission is worthless as are AP3 Bolters. 

Thanks GW! 

(Watch me get owned by the first new dex chaos list I play...)


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## MarzM (Jan 26, 2007)

I like some parts of the book, and really hate others!

Like SoH, i don't like the fact that they have moved away from the fluff. I agree, no, Khorne and Slannesh or Nurgle and Tzeench should not work together.

What GW has done is leave it up to the players (never a good idea) to deside how to balance the army. The Lash power is laughable and will be abused at every opportunity! lol. Arhiman is SSSSSOOOOOOO expencive, but i so would! He's the daddy!

I want to know if turdo boosting would give a Tzeench guy a 2+ invu save?

I like the Defiler now, and the inclusion of the Vindicator (see lash of submission).

I think that the Nurgle Daemon weapon sucks but all the rest are fairly cool! The Slaanesh one is a bit harsh tho!

I dont like the Greater Daemons and lesser daemons things. Tho, horrors have technically got better! lol

I think some of the combos will funny, Tzeench biker army for example.


MarzM :mrgreen:


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

MarzM said:


> Like SoH, i don't like the fact that they have moved away from the fluff. I agree, no, Khorne and Slannesh or Nurgle and Tzeench should not work together.


Well technically they do work together. Black Legion has units from all the chaos gods - all mixed in together.

But I know where you are coming from. People will take the Dex out of context and half and half armies will spring up everywhere even though they are very unfluffy.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> Lash of Submission is worthless as are AP3 Bolters.


Uh are you kidding?



> I want to know if turdo boosting would give a Tzeench guy a 2+ invu save?


Yes, yes it would


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

> Quote:
> Lash of Submission is worthless as are AP3 Bolters.
> 
> 
> Uh are you kidding?


Versus Guard yes they are worthless.

Since Blood Angels have been shafted I doubt i'll be using power armour again.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

I dunno about that Jez. With Lash I can force one of your heavy weapons squads to move behind cover at the very least, forcing you to spend a turn moving back into position. Or I can bring a full unit closer to my uber cc units and such. AP3 bolters don't do much good true but they are still awesome vs MEQs.


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

Your uber CC units would get smashed by a squad of rough riders...

I don't think you can argue the strength of an army on one item of wargear.

To use it you need to a) be in sight and b) be within 24 inches. Meaning you're in for a shitty turn of incoming fire and your troops have entered rough rider assault range.

As far as i'm concerned chaos have been weakened and Iron Warriors rightly scrapped. Meaning my Guard are a more viable GT option. Although there are probably several powergaming exploits that haven't been discovered yet.


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## stompzilla (Mar 8, 2007)

Prince deepstrikes and pushes rough riders into the open. Second prince pulls a squad close enough to be assaulted and shaped so that beserkers can only kill 1 model. Rough riders get hosed down, platoon gets charged by beserkers. Beserkers kill all of squad in your combat phase and consolidate forward. Beserkers continue forward into assault range of another squad. Lash pulls another squad close enough for beserkers to consolidate into. Beserkers charge, wipe out unit and consolidate. Suddenly things look very grim the guard. Etc, etc, etc.

This power is so rude it's not even funny.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> Your uber CC units would get smashed by a squad of rough riders..


Unfortunately Rough Riders are very easy to deal with if movement and shooting is done right. I have been charged very few times by them and when they don't charge, they don't get to use the lances they have. Never mind Stomps example, which is a good one no doubt, I can use lash to pull the RR's out in to the open and all base to base which can be targetted by a Defiler and a Vindicator, wiping out the squad.


I think Guard is a viable GT list now actually, provided the list is well thought out and in the hands of a skilled player.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

Remember that psychic hood can really ruin the lash, and that the dp's aren't all that tough so could quite easily die to a single round of shooting. Agree its an awesome power, and when i read the codex was the first thing i thought Yeah, have me some of that. I like it because instead of being overly powerful itself it requires backing up and helps the army work together.


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

> Prince deepstrikes and pushes rough riders into the open. Second prince pulls a squad close enough to be assaulted and shaped so that beserkers can only kill 1 model. Rough riders get hosed down, platoon gets charged by beserkers. Beserkers kill all of squad in your combat phase and consolidate forward. Beserkers continue forward into assault range of another squad. Lash pulls another squad close enough for beserkers to consolidate into. Beserkers charge, wipe out unit and consolidate. Suddenly things look very grim the guard. Etc, etc, etc.


How many points/turns are you going to spend dealing with 3 55 point rough rider squads?

All the time 12 Lascannons, 3 Ordnance Blasts and a shed load of plasma (3 deep striking plasma vet squads) are having their way with the rest of your force.

It's a nasty weapon for sure, but in the scenario you've explained the rough riders have served their purpose pretty well.

It'd rather face the army you describe than a 9 oblit Iron Warriors list any day.


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## jigplums (Dec 15, 2006)

What about the 9 oblit double lash prince list???


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I like it.

My brother (a chaos player) was upset at the loss of customization, but he likes a lot of the other changes (summoned units, no more ancient enemies, better access to cult units, force swords for sorcerers, etc)

Overall, the consensus is they ended up with a good codex, post-revision.

Much better than DA or BA ended up with.

It's enough to make me want to do a 'counts as' list for my poor little blood angels.

As for the loss of name brand daemons, I heard they were doing a daemons codex later that can be run on its own or used in conjunction with chaos SM (think inquisition books in reverse) so you;ll get the daemons back.

Some interesting changes
Defilers are actually (potentially) scary in assault now. Up to 6 S10 power attacks on a charge

Can't wait for the screams of "How do they steer?!" (Chaos bikes have no more +1A bonus, but no prohibition against extra attacks from multiple weapons...and the bikers come with BP&CCW)

Freakin invul saves on every character

Everyone gets BP&CCW plus bolters.

A lot less complicated

I didn;t care for the changes to DA and BA, but I actually like the new chaos dex


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> Freakin invul saves on every character


Hehe, my Thousand Sons list has that on the entire army :twisted: 


Overall, I am diggin it as well. Still not sold on the Vindicator yet and Possessed don't seem to be worth the points (especially compared to the cheap terminators) but overall it is a good codex imho.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

yeah, possessed are rather expensive for no more than you get

Still, Chosen are pretty boss. 5 infiltrating meltaguns, anyone? (I would say four powerfists, but they cost a fortune now) I'd have a hard time taking any other elite choice

The upgraded Defiler means you're pretty much never going to put a dreadnaught on the table though (unless you really need the heavy slots and are pressed for points). Even though they forgot to include it in the stats, those DCCWs mean it's S10 instead of 6. Anything dreads can do they can do better. Though the loss of indirect fire for the battlecannon can hurt. The BS3 isn't an issue since the only guns it have that require an attack roll are all twin-linked (TL BS3 is actually slightly more accurate than non-TL BS4)

And, despite the generic nature of daemons in the CSM dex, the way they're handled is a lot better than before. No more instability, no more scattering, and they don't take up FOC slots. It'll be interesting to see the daemons codex I've heard rumors about.

I'll really miss my attack bikes and baal predators, but I'm thinking about converting


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

> What about the 9 oblit double lash prince list???


I'd take that over the uber khorne prince, bloodthirster, defiler, 3 oblit list you took to the GT. 9 oblits means no other heavy support right?

In fact i'd rather two lashes than 2 sirens....

If it comes to it and turns out i've underestimated the use of the lash i'll take an Inquisitor Lord with a psychic hood and a callidus assassain to give me the edge.

Obviously I don't have the knowledge or experience of you guys. 

If it comes down to people abusing one badly thought out item at every GT I think i'll give it a miss.

Play testing will tell.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Use the lash to herd units together, then drop a pieplate on them...course that'd mean taking a defiler or vindicator instead of all oblits


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## Alexander_67 (May 5, 2007)

Heres my reasons for hating it with the power of a thousand, thousand suns (no pun in there, i'm not happy). I enjoy the fluff of GW just as much as i love the gaming/painting. To me its all part of the experience. So when GW released the horus heresy series about the original traitor legions i was pretty happy. I mean the horus heresy was an important time for chaos am i right?

So you'll have to forgive me for getting pissed off when instead what we get is basically the swansong for the original legions. And dont start with the "Their chaos they couldnt have servived all this time" crap. If the dark angels bombed half their legion into a hole in space and time and still managed to pull it back to full strength amidst a 10,000 year war i'm pretty sure 9 chaos powered traitor legions of the same/higher calibre can do the same. 

The Question i want to throw out there is why build up all this history about the original legions and their own ethos and personas then not bother in the slightest to put any of those ideas into how chaos play on the field? Or worse yet why put the ideas on the field (eg word bearers getting all demon types + alpha legion infiltrating and so on) and then take them out again and say "aw that was no good". 

I get the horrible sinking feeling that GW simply changed chaos for no reason at all other than they could, or that suddenly some GW higher up woke up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat and realised how popular chaos was with vets and calculated right then and there what they could do to try and make us all rebuy our armies therebuy generating alot of revenue just buy changing rules in the codex. 

I agree whole heartedly the Iron warrior rules had to go but why'd they kill all the other rules with it? 

(sorry for the essay i had to vent)


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

> So you'll have to forgive me for getting pissed off when instead what we get is basically the swansong for the original legions. And dont start with the "Their chaos they couldnt have servived all this time" crap. If the dark angels bombed half their legion into a hole in space and time and still managed to pull it back to full strength amidst a 10,000 year war i'm pretty sure 9 chaos powered traitor legions of the same/higher calibre can do the same.


I don't know about you, but when I'm running out of guys, actually having the means to reinforce your numbers tends to help. A colossal organisation whose job it is to make yours work tend sot do much better than one who waits for Marines to ditch into the EoT, one by one. Any large groups would stick to themselves, and small groups would have a hell of a time getting there.

It only makes sense. Most of the original guys are dead, and the ones that are left have become Chosen or better. It is very unlikely they have the ability to recruit the new marines for how they complement their original force, because if they did that they'd die out with lack of numbers. No more 'well every one of my guys hyas survived constant war against the Imperium and being lorded over by psychotic daemons without being killed for ten thousand years' nonsense.

As for the 'table flavour', you're not right in the head if you didn't notice the way the armies are changing. You don't get special rules just to make your legion feel special. Instead, you have to make your legion through army list composition. I like this new effect, because it means the asses who blatantly ignore any form of lore to make their army no longer have to ruin these established forces by playing them, while those who want a force that makes sense can still make them. You don't need special rules and fancy dice to be the Black Legion or the Emperor's Children.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Rumours are that there will be expanded Legion rules in the daemonic codex coming out next year. GW has said, hell Gav said it to me personally, that they wanted this book to focus more on renegades than the full legions. Wait and see


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

The Wraithlord said:


> Rumours are that there will be expanded Legion rules in the daemonic codex coming out next year. GW has said, hell Gav said it to me personally, that they wanted this book to focus more on renegades than the full legions. Wait and see


And pray. A lot. Even more than that. Why arn't you praying now damit!


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## stompzilla (Mar 8, 2007)

Meh. I don't see why the legions should get any special attention. It was essentially free stuff to make your army just that little bit better than a normal chaos army for little to, predominantly, no drawback.

You want a sneaky alpha legion army, invest in chosen. No more cut price infiltrate now though, you have to pay for what you get like everyone else (Boohoo).

You want IWs: dreads and oblits and vindicators, assault troops etc. Again, no more free stuff for you. pay the price of what you use like everyone else.

Nightlords get chosen, bikers, raptors etc which are now cheaper. No more cheapo stealth adept and free enhanced senses though. Again - pay for what you get. (See a theme recurring here?)

Ok word bearers got screwed a bit but the daemon codex should see that right.

DG, EC, TS and WE got much better.

Heaven forbid but we might actually see a legion army that represents what it's supposed to now rather than a normal chaos army with stealth adept and free enhanced senses etc etc etc etc.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

I think its also the fact that all sense of history and loyalty to fluff is being thrown to the wind is whats geting people pissed in addition to the nerfing.


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

Good to see this isn't being completely overblown.


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## hephesto (Feb 24, 2007)

uberschveinen said:


> I don't know about you, but when I'm running out of guys, actually having the means to reinforce your numbers tends to help. A colossal organisation whose job it is to make yours work tend sot do much better than one who waits for Marines to ditch into the EoT, one by one. Any large groups would stick to themselves, and small groups would have a hell of a time getting there.


Well thats all great and such, but why oh why has every major chaos event only involved vast numbers of the orignal legions. In fact other renegades (save for Red Corsairs) haven't had as much as a paragraph here and there of mention.

13th Black Crusade and Medusa both saw only vast numbers of loyalists all over the board (few exceptions here and there getting mentioned, but no more). So it does go against there own very good fluff, but even if we overlook this (which is very diffcult as fluff states vast amount of the orignal legions survived who unlike SM were vastly larger in number than the now standardd 1000). Then where did all these new legions popping up from, the fluff is full blabbing on and on about the absolute loyalty of SM. And now all of a sudden we get a wave of new traitors :?

My main annoyance is indeed the fluff and secondly how much the list now looks like Space Marines with spikes and some invulnerability saves thrown in. The last thing I want as a Chaos player is to be even more compaired to a SM player. In fact it is pretty suprising that most complaints and comments are coming from longtime Chaos player and that most of it isn't even about the legion lists being thrown out. Most (serious) arguments are about fluff and how the list is getting more similiar to SM.


It could be me, but am I the only one who has the feeling Chaos got rushed and only got a quick update (like Tau and rumored Necrons next year) in favor of pumping time and resources into apocalypse as that will provide GW with a much broad market of customers and as such should produce more revenue for them?


However, I will abstain from voting right now. As I do not want the stuff I've been reading of late completely dominate my opinions until I've gotten my hands on the codex and read it cover to cover.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> It was essentially free stuff to make your army just that little bit better than a normal chaos army for little to, predominantly, no drawback.


Heh, I think Thousand Sons players may disagree with you on that on :mrgreen:


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## stompzilla (Mar 8, 2007)

The 4 legions of the gods (Esp T.sons) excluded of course. :wink: I never had any problems with the cult armies and thought they were pretty balanced.


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

I like what I've seen thus far. Granted, I can't play the same army I once did, but I can actually play more of an army with more tactical flexibility and still keep a nice theme as well.

I'm still interested in seeing how the Daemons come out in '08.


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

Even the new codex can and will be abused, although not in the same ways like in the previous edition.
However, what bugs me more is that playing a 'fluff' oriented army could probably be less rewarding than creating a mixed up warband. 

It's an improvement but GW could have done a better job.

Btw. They keep dumbing down Khorne. What happened to the old Ares rip off?


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

I do not fear the new Dex with my IG, or my Mech Eldar, or my Bugs. But then, I don't fear any army. Still, I'm happy with the list I've put together thus far, and am willing to say that the new dex is worthwhile.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> I do not fear the new Dex with my IG, or my Mech Eldar, or my Bugs


That's because you haven't gone up against a properly built army yet lol.


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

I don't see how anything the new dex can throw at my Mech Eldar list can be any more dangerous than previous editions of Chaos or the Loyalists for that matter.

My Bugs are expendible, as are my IG. I understand the drawbacks from the Lash, but I also understand that 60+ Guardsmen with 25+ rerollable power weapon/fist attacks can remove even Traitor Marines from the field.

I'm one of those players who did not fear Siren Prince/Daemon Bomb armies, or even the dreaded Pie-Plate of Doom IWs. I fear no army, and actually see only fun competitions against the new list possibilities. I'm looking foward to faceing off against this new dex, and playing as the new Chaos as well.


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## Pandawithissues... (Dec 2, 2007)

Losing the fluff will eventually lose the hobby, or devalue it to the extent that many of us wont want to play any more.
When i play, and it gets rarer and rarer, i now tend to stick to painting, when i do anything with it, i dont care about how powerful my troops are, for me its about telling a story.

Does anyone remember the part in the gaunts ghost series where gaunt remembers heroic acts performed by the hyrkans? One of the best was the lucky las shot through the eye slit of a chaos dreadnaught. - Those overachieving moments, where one of your troops does something downright ridiculous - Thats the part of the actual gaming i live for win or lose.

So, after a long ramble, dislike it for the loss of the fluff. Oh, and the new layout for the codices? Absolote pure *£%@ grrr the eldar one was HORRIBLE, and the trend continues.


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## Logain_85 (Nov 27, 2007)

the first time i read the chaos codex was when it was re-released and i still haven't faced chaos yet, so im making my own. Seeing as i only really started collecting since January of 07 i never read the old rules, but it sounds like from everyone talking about it they they were way overpowered and out of proportion for the points cost assigned to them. Which only encourages power gamers. 

But even reading the new codex and comparing it to my space marines ones, there diffrent, but still really really nasty!! finaly some other army has beteen my nids in nasty ness factor!!
And im going to have a small army of them!!


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## VanBehlen (Dec 1, 2007)

> Everyone gets BP&CCW plus bolters.


Hey i noticed that. Is this really what it looks like? Can our guys fire their bolters from 24" away if they dont move...then 2 turns later fire bolt pistols and charge into cc with 3 attacks (1 + 2ccw + charge)?


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## fleck009 (Dec 2, 2007)

because its asome go the new version. newversion power away. :grin:


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## darklightknight448 (Nov 9, 2007)

I have to admit, it's a huge improvement. Chaos have been falling behind the time in desperate need of an update.

But it's not good for me. My uncle will have an army the size of the Russian Federation full to the brim with Chaos pretty soon because of the update (as if he wasn't powerfull enough before...), and i'll only have my diminutive little Tau army to fight back with.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

VanBehlen said:


> Hey i noticed that. Is this really what it looks like? Can our guys fire their bolters from 24" away if they dont move...then 2 turns later fire bolt pistols and charge into cc with 3 attacks (1 + 2ccw + charge)?


Remember, you can naver charge in the same turn that you fire a bolter.

However the three weapons give you some options.

If someone tries to assault you you can rapid0fire into them with the bolters and then (upon you being charged) you get +1 attack in the assault phase for using a pistol and ccw (even if you shot your bolter before you were assaulted)

If you want to assault someone else you can fire a volley from your pistols before charging in. Not only do you get +1A, but you also get to shoot and charge.

For guys armed with Assault Weapons (which replace bolters but not the pistol and sword) you can fire your assault weapon in the shooting phase, then charge in and, and still get +1A for having the pistol and sword, even if you fired your meltagun or flamer in the shooting phase.

It makes them a very strong assault and shooting based army.


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

I would say that my lastest incarnation of the Thirteenth Host has been rather good with the new rules. I may want to hang Jervis Johnson by his ankles for the travesty that was the Dark Angels codex, but I do like the new models and the shiny new dex'. The only thing I dislike is the loss of the Accursed Crozius for the Word Bearers. It really added some character to the army (and was a blast to model)

-Dirge


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## Dreamseller (Nov 15, 2007)

it has more improvements than aboms but kinda sad to see kharn nerfed a lil bit and tht zerkers loose there ability which lets em move more thn 6 inches whch was really fun

abbadon has a huge buff 

not all bad some good stuff


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

VanBehlen said:


> Hey i noticed that. Is this really what it looks like? Can our guys fire their bolters from 24" away if they dont move...then 2 turns later fire bolt pistols and charge into cc with 3 attacks (1 + 2ccw + charge)?


Yup, exactly. 
Honestly, it can be argued that regular SM can add a pistol and CCW and do the same (in most cases a pistol and CCW are considered additions instead of replacements). But that is an argument for another thread.


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## Darkangeldentist (Oct 31, 2007)

Overall I'd say it's an improvement. The increase in basic equipment conisdering the standardisation going on with all the codices is a huge buff for the basic troops. The cult units are nicely distinct from regular chaos space marines and also there is a real difference between the cult units and merely marked ones.

I like the different HQ's thouigh I think the chaos lord is a little lacklustre compared to the brute strength of the daemon prince and lacks the versatility of the sorceror.

Much more good than bad.


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## tsarrion (Dec 2, 2007)

This is an absolute abomination, If you have read the codex, then you would know how they ruined daemons, Greater Daemons of each Gods now only count as generic Greater Daemons, the same is true with the Lesser Daemons. 

No more Nurglings or demon packs or those manta ray looking things. Now they are all just generic daemons with no special abilities. This completely kills my nurgle army forcing me to use overpowered marines. Sure marines are better but they didn't need to be, they were cool and to begin with. Now I'm going to have to wait another year before the new demon codex comes out. Until that time Chicago is going to have to be afraid of my cheesy Eldar/Iyanden army (see my other thread)


_Removed daemonic stats_


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

They did nerf daemons in the new dex but I really don't have much of a problem with that. It is after all Codex: Chaos Space Marines and not Codex: Chaos Forces. Limiting the daemons puts more focus on the marines while still allowing you to field the daemons if you wish. Perhaps not the best solution but I wouldn't say the entire codex sucks because of it. 

On a side note, please don't post full stats and/or item costs as GW takes exception to that and we have no wish to be shut down.


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

tsarrion said:


> Now I'm going to have to wait another year before the new demon codex comes out.


AFAIK, daemons get a standalone codex.
Looks like "Spiky Marines" are going to stick to the summoned cannon fodder.


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## bl0203 (Nov 10, 2007)

I play BA although I bought the CSM Dex to get to know my enemy. I like the changes made and its a fun army to play against. The new models are definately cool IMO!!!


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## Corporal Chaos (Nov 27, 2007)

I find it to be quicker to use. I miss all the options but I can live without them. They just had SO many choices that it could get to you,and thats just the lord.


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

The overwhelming amount of choices is what I always loved about the old codex.
It felt like _my_ army - both in modeling and game terms.

No offense, but to me the new one has the words "cookie cutter" written all over it.


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## cerrakoth (Nov 7, 2007)

They're far to over powered I mean in my mind chaos marines should either be weaker than marines and cost less to show how they've fallen OR a lot more expensive to show the demonic gifts given unto them=]


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## Sister Sin (Nov 27, 2007)

Given the two choices I selected abomination, but that's not really stating the case.

The new codex streamlines a lot of things, did indeed fix some of the excesses of the old one...but in my own humble opinion, went too far in so doing. It has its own excesses and is just as abusable as the old one, only in different ways.

I was a Legion player, my second oldest army are the World Eaters. Note, World Eaters Legion, not a Khornate army. Had they gone a bit further towards the old RoC Legion list (yes, it was a Legion list and I still have the books) I'd probably be happier. They didn't.

The old Legion list had havocs and so on, much as a Loyalist Chapter would...the Berserkers were the Chosen at that time and frenzied when enemy got within 12". In 2e, the fluff 'advanced' saying that the World Eaters ,while scattered into various warbands, still regarded themselves as First Founding Marines but had dropped all pretenses at tactical flexibility in favor of close combat over everything else. This held true in 3e too. Then we got the IA articles for them and the rules for their Legion, or the warbands made up of members of that Legion...remember, they still regard themselves as First Founding Marines...and things were still pretty cohesive from a background standpoint.

Then came the new dex...and discarded much of what went before. Now they have an Icon, the bearer of which can be shot...and if he is then the so-called World Eaters around him suddenly lose all faith in Khorne. *shrugs*

It works for a lot of folks out there, and for them I am very happy. Enjoy it guys. It does not work for me: I am primarily a background players and my army, heavily converted to adhere to nearly two decades of background, became rather...lackluster to me. The things that drove me to build it are gone.

Counts as doesn't work for me like it does for others. To me they are not World Eaters any longer, saving the Berserkers, but rather Khornate troops, wannabes in a way. Remember, this is all my own personal perspective, I am not speaking for anyone else at all.

The new codex removed all of the most important bits that attracted me to the army. I am not so much a Chaos player as a World Eaters player. 

For most, this will be tagged as whining or being spoiled. So be it. I speak only for myself and from my own perspective. The new Codex removed the fun of the army for *me*. Please don't try to convince me I am in error, it's a subjective thing. If it works for most folks I am truly happy for them. It just doesn't work for me.

To each their own. I have returned to my Salamanders, the only army I have played longer than World Eaters, and to my favorites, the Ebon Chalice Battlesisters.

Rock on guys. Rock on.

Sister Sin


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## RPD_Tyrant (Dec 21, 2007)

The united an army.... That its theme was chaotic.... That doesnt float with me .


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## Tiberius (Dec 15, 2007)

Well this has been an interesting read. However this new Codex is not fit to use in my bathroom:angry: You can certainly tell the purists from the gamers. There is nothing in this Codex, that does not scream GW has given in to Corprate greed IMO.

The last version was what Chaos was about. You paid the points to field your version of the Legion of your choice. Now if some cry-baby didn't like being handed by some IW force at a Tourny, maybe they should have begged, borrowed, or bought a copy of the Codex. So that they could realize what may happen to them. The only complaints about the last codex,I heard from people in my area was. They wished that, Space Marines could be that customizable. Which was granted to them when their lastest Codex was released.

As previous this has greed written all over. The new figs and Huron's rules should have been in a WD article, nothing more.


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## PAw (Dec 20, 2007)

they turned a Chaos Legion list into a Renegade Chapter list. they made it Naff


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## CATzeentch (Dec 25, 2007)

cerrakoth said:


> They're far to over powered I mean in my mind chaos marines should either be weaker than marines and cost less to show how they've fallen OR a lot more expensive to show the demonic gifts given unto them=]



remeber, the new CSM are just RENEGADE marines, so not any special stuff except for the thousand sons, DG, WE, and EC, which also have their drawbacks

Also for sister sin, I understand what you are saying, and I might be confused about what you said but, Khorne beserkers don't have an Icon they have a mark like before. And I fully understand your opinion, while as for me I like it, its simpler(My opinion).


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## PAw (Dec 20, 2007)

in Fluff(unsure now) the Progenitor Legions are alot stronger then any other Marines because they have direct blood link to their Primarch. the Newer Loyalist and Renegade chapters, Even Progenitor chapters are weaker now because they dont have a new Blood supply for the Gene-seed.
the Chaos legions how ever are ALOT stronger and their Organs haven't shutdown or gone into Disuse because they have the strongest Gene-seeds.

they should of just made a Variant list like the legions for Renegade chapters with its own Trade offs like the legion lists do. I am not a Chaos player but i hate seeing commercialism Ruining a game.

EDIT:
i started converting a Demon prince form a Dreadnought for fun only to find out he can only have sorcery/Marks/wings for upgrades! so now my Demon princes "Ass cannon" arm is a count as for doom bolt!


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## Tiberius (Dec 15, 2007)

CATzeentch said:


> remeber, the new CSM are just RENEGADE marines, so not any special stuff except for the thousand sons, DG, WE, and EC, which also have their drawbacks


Well if GW wanted to showcase Renegade Marines, they mabye it should have been called The Lost and Damned Codex.


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## CATzeentch (Dec 25, 2007)

The whole point of the codex "IN MY OPINION" was to keep those huge army eating charcters out and away wipe the traces of the world once known as "herohammer". The new codex is also to show the fractious nature of chaos with the ability ti change from god to god and warband to warband. I'm also guessing that you said it was an "abomination"?


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

CATzeentch said:


> The new codex is also to show the fractious nature of chaos with the ability ti change from god to god and warband to warband.


Sounds more like Black Legion fluff to me.


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## SyNide (Nov 24, 2007)

Actually, i like the new codex...Once you open your mind, the possibilities are endless. And thats why i voted it as an improvement.

The lists are so varied and everything is viable!


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## the cabbage (Dec 29, 2006)

I preferred the old codex.

IMO the new book is too generic. I liked re-reading the old book and finding something I had missed every time. NOT game winning stuff just quirky stuff.


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## Firewolf (Jan 22, 2007)

>> I have read the new dex. And yes, some parts of it suck, like making people have to think about how they going to make a legion from the list! The only thing that really bursts me is the way the wargear list has been cut away so that there is no gifts, vehicular upgrades and all. But in general I think its a pretty good dex. The nerfing was gonna happen, the bitchin was gonna happen. All I gonna do is work wi the dex, and make do with what I got, cos no amount of moaning is gonna change the dex.


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## RPD_Tyrant (Dec 21, 2007)

I just don't like the idea of uniting an army that is known for hating each other. It makes no sense, and im an Iron Warriors player who just lost everything that made me like my army . If i was just a chaos player that didnt have a legion (Khorne, or Nurgle or any of the others) I would be ok with it, but as i played a legion (was working on a Tzeench(sp) army along with Iron Warriors) I feel betrayed and angry, which is why im not buying anything new for chaos and moving on to one of my other armies. If this keeps up im going to stop playing Warhammer and that is bad for GW since i spend upwards of 200+ dollars a month on the game, along with my friends who i convince to play. I miss Andy Chambers


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## CATzeentch (Dec 25, 2007)

You might not be able to play with Iron warriors in normal games, but now that apocalypse was released tourneys are begging to appear for Apoc so then your Iron Warriors would sort of be back


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## RPD_Tyrant (Dec 21, 2007)

CATzeentch said:


> You might not be able to play with Iron warriors in normal games, but now that apocalypse was released tourneys are begging to appear for Apoc so then your Iron Warriors would sort of be back


Just doesnt feel the same . Besides, if GW didnt do this i would have bought 2 Baneblades to turn to Iron Warriors, but since they nerfed my faction, no more money for them :fuck:


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## Sister Sin (Nov 27, 2007)

Since a World Eaters army as it attracted me no longer exists, I simply stopped playing Chaos at all. 

I know, Berserkers are still World Eaters. Not good enough for me as I said before. I was attracted to a large warband of pure World Eaters, not a group of wannabes employing World Eaters. Personal thing; I don't do counts as, I don't feel interested in painting a model as a World Eater when it most patently is not a World Eater. I have no interest in including units that simply aren't what World Eaters have been for a very long time now; close combat junkies. I don't care that Berserkers are more effective than they were. That's just me. 

Other people have no problem with such things and I say more power to them. 

I was a Legion player, a World Eaters player, not a Chaos player actually.

But hey, the new Codex works for a lot of people, makes them happy. That's shiny; I think that's cool. Just doesn't work for me. 

So since I got a huge amount of Eldar for Yuletide, including Apoc units of them, I'll go into those now...my own Craftworld too. My World Eaters are, for the moment, on the shelf. I may decide to sell or give them away; even the extremely converted pieces.

To each their own.

Sister Sin


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

I actually like the new dex (as I posted before) and still hold to that opinion even though I no longer play Chaos. While the dex has become more of what I think Chaos should be (the Legions are still there, just in a more customizable form), I cannot make the themed list that originally drew me to Chaos. Without that list, I really have no modeling/painting interest in the army.


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## RedApostle (Nov 24, 2007)

as its been said, we're basically the nega-marines

it was cool when the legions had their individual abilities, complication really should not be an issue - perhaps they should write the rules more clearly :angry:

theres not even such thing as individual daemons for gods sake, this new codex basically took the cool out of chaos - like we're marines but with retarded daemons. thats it. no more no less - evil 'space marines.' just an adjective on an over-populated noun.

but we all move on and adapt, by next year this wont be a topic, chaos will be what it is, even if it sucks. [[imo]]

:angry::angry::angry:

apostle angry! apostle smash!


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## CATzeentch (Dec 25, 2007)

Codex Daemons will come out and that will mark the return of the God alligned Daemons


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## Imperial Dragon (Dec 22, 2007)

i like the new codex.
not to complain here but the only 2 things i don't i guess are the possessed with the whole rolling to see what you get and zerkers losing there extra D6 move, but other then then great dex i've seen some cool combo's and i havent some great ones either but the dex wouldn't get a full 10 due to them taking out the leigons from chaos, but who can complain.


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## annhwi (Dec 21, 2007)

I believe there was one other IW player on here... and as such I must agree with him. This 'dex has abomination written all over it and all in it. There is no customization in comparison to the prior dex. There is an extreme feel of 'generic' with this dex.

If I wasn't afraid they would do the same thing to loyalist Marines, I would convert my CSM over... (although the Basilisk would still be a wasted purchase... thanks a lot on that one GW)

And for the record... the IW were not overpowered... they are just as defeatable as any other army out there. (and no...I did not field 9 Obliterators either... I didn't have room for that many. It was usually 4-5)

And there is a lot for being able to field 'your' own chaos list... there should be enough flexibility to be able to do exactly that in the dex. And this one simply doesn't deliver.


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## CATzeentch (Dec 25, 2007)

Heres a question, is there going to be a poll about the Orks?


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Once the codex becomes available to people, most likely.


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## Chambers (Nov 30, 2007)

So I am jumping in on the discussion late, but I wanted to with hold my judgment until I had played with the new codex a couple of times. 

I voted against the new codex, it is not that I feel that the new Chaos codex was nerfed just lost most of it's flavor. I still can win with the new codex, in fact now that there are no cult list it is even easier. While I got all types of new toys for my Plague marines that make it a better list, I feel that the army as a whole just became smurfs with spikes. If I had wanted to play "bad Marines" I would have just played Blood Angles and been done With it. 

But as always this is just my opinion.

-Jeff


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## annhwi (Dec 21, 2007)

I can do everything that my IW list was in a standard SM list...(exception being the Oblits... closest I get to that might be the DS Speeders with Assault Cannons and the Basilisk is replaced with the Vindicator... but otherwise I can almost completely mimic what I was doing with my IW to a tee.)

Only bad thing is that I cannot convert spiky marines to standard marines too well...lol

(and I would need 2 more Dreadnaughts , 3 Speeders , etc., etc.)

I did not want to have my SM army be that way just to fit the way I like to play... but since I can do virtually the same thing in a SM list.. I might just have to do that.


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## veteran1759 (Jan 4, 2008)

Didn't like it too much to start with seemed very much more of a renegade chapter exercise than a true chaos codex hopefully new codex daemons will fill the gap. 
I understand what they are trying to do in expanding the universe but I hope that GW don't forget about the hard core CSM fans and the new breed now the heresy books are bringing them in


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

I was ace with the old rules now I have to get used to the new rules.:angry:


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

I like the theory behind the new book better than I like the execution. I still think it's an improvement, because I _hated_ the old book.

The old book promised a lot and failed to deliver. There were all these cool ideas that didn't get used. How many times did you actually see a real cult list that worked? How many times did you see an iron warriors army with a couple of las/plas squads, a daemon prince and 7 heavy support?

It just got boring really fast with all the iron warrior armies and I am really glad they are gone. A couple of years back it was unusual for a player to be on the top tables at a GT and not be using iron warriors or Ulthwe. Iron warriors posted more wins in the eye of terror campaign than any bad guy army apart from chaos undivided.

The old book had masses of options for fluffy things that nobody took because they weren’t any good. They cherry picked out the few things that were too good, which is the sensible thing to do if you want to win. You ended up with masses of iron warriors and a few daemon bomb siren armies with things like all infiltrating armies mixed in here and there. Certain units, like infiltrating lieutenants with daemonic speed, were very common. What you hardly ever saw was a “balanced” army with a bit of everything. The overall effect was that the army was quite a lot more powerful than the average. All of this needed to be fixed.

The new book seems like a reaction against the old one and in many ways is its opposite. There is actually quite a bit of fluff in the book but it has a very different focus, meaning that a lot of the old stuff is gone. Pages and pages of options and upgrades, both for models and whole army configurations, are gone and replaced by a single list. On the other hand, this list is pretty well rounded. It has lots of units you can pick from and in most cases they are worth considering and using in armies at all levels.

There are specific failings in the new book. Lash is a very obvious one and it’s hard to see how it could have got through playtesting. The daemons are really badly done and could easily have been better. If they had “proper” demons then nobody would have made a fuss about the new, non-compatible demon book with them in, but now you have to try and explain why there is this difference.

I don’t think it’s as much fun to read the book and make armies with the new codex, but I think that the armies it makes are better and the games you end up playing are more fun. For me, the game experience is the most important thing, so I think that the new book is better. I have a lot of sympathy with people who are annoyed at everything that has been lost from the old book though.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> There are specific failings in the new book. Lash is a very obvious one and it’s hard to see how it could have got through playtesting.


Same way psychic hoods made it through 



> I don’t think it’s as much fun to read the book and make armies with the new codex, but I think that the armies it makes are better and the games you end up playing are more fun. For me, the game experience is the most important thing, so I think that the new book is better.


Full agreement. The fluff may not be as prevalent but the lists you can make are much more varied and fun to use imho.


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## purepolarpanzer (Jan 8, 2008)

I like the new dex. I was tired of hearing about Iron Fists (i think it was) trumping the world with extra heavy support and Oblizerators. Compared to Night Lords they were God. Major balance issues.


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## Captain Micha (Nov 2, 2007)

It is a vast improvement over the Saturday morning herohammer wanna be cartoon last codex. 

They are marines, marines are marines unfortunately so no matter what they did to 'make them different' they were really not all that different. The chaos legions would not be the inflexible over thematic lists that we had before, they would be balanced with a variety of options to take with them onto the field of battle. Also splitting up of the Hqs was a spectacular idea, and I am glad they did it. 

The codex is over all more balanced than the last one, (not saying that's exactly hard to do there though) and it is organized much better than the last one as well.

Also, as far as doing things for the legions I feel that they did the legions more of a service than anything by removing those ridiculous restrictions. (especially since really they didn't actually make the army list more balanced. )


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

Captain Micha said:


> Also, as far as doing things for the legions I feel that they did the legions more of a service than anything by removing those ridiculous restrictions.


Ridiculous? I enjoyed my cultists. 
If I prefered cult marines over them I would've started a Black Legion force instead.


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## Captain Micha (Nov 2, 2007)

Cultists as in the cheap cheap cheap cannon fodder for your Chaos Marines?


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