# Dark Elves. Trouble getting back into them.



## blackspine (Jun 9, 2010)

Ahoy all.

Title says it all. 
I have an army of Dark Elves (Druchii), quite a bit of them, and I'm having problems finding their "wow" factor. To be more accurate, I'm having a hard time finding the aspect of the army/book that makes me drop my jaw and go 'oh, holy F*cking sh*t'.

I love the lore; from the scorned and countless millennia of betrayal, to a gorgeous and perfect thing warped and wracked with perversion. The art is, for the most part amazing, the monsters fantastic (see note later), the magic is sublime.

Now, the parts that detract from the appeal.
The 'wow-factor' was almost neutered in this edition. I'm not saying that they aren't effective, but that they lack much of their amazing facets. 
* Infantry rules:* With steadfast lines of infantry being the mainstay in this edition; many of the dark elves options are pretty rough. 
Blackguard can only be taken in a (relatively) small number. 
Executioners are ASL...unless taking a mandatory ASF banner.
Infantry are T3/ S3. Very lack luster.
Witch elves? (pardon my ignorance)

*Cavalry*: Dark riders are nice for many tasks, but can cold riders still break lines? Are they reliable and cost effective? I see them as an AMAZING part of the dark elves army (caste system and so forth) but can they perform as the hammer in this dark time?


*Monsters*: Manticores and malevolent dragons swooping out of the sky just don't have 1/2 the impact they used to. Now, they seem to be a liability. Hydras seem to be the only effective monster that Dark elves have.

Magic: well, honestly, no complaints for dark magic. For other lores, can we compete?
Lords/ Heroes: Are we soft and dependent on magic items like feces covered skaven for warpstones? 

I'd like to stress that this is not a B&Moan thread, but a "hey do you have any ideas that I looked over? What makes the army so Wickedly Seductive to you?"


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

blackspine said:


> *Cavalry*: Dark riders are nice for many tasks, but can cold riders still break lines? Are they reliable and cost effective? I see them as an AMAZING part of the dark elves army (caste system and so forth) but can they perform as the hammer in this dark time?


Dark Riders actually aren't quite as good this edition, but Cold One Knights can perform pretty amazing. A large unit with the ASF banner and a properly kitted character can kick serious ass. Throw the Cauldron blessing on there for lulz.




> *Monsters*: Manticores and malevolent dragons swooping out of the sky just don't have 1/2 the impact they used to. Now, they seem to be a liability. Hydras seem to be the only effective monster that Dark elves have.


Yeah, pretty much.



> Magic: well, honestly, no complaints for dark magic. For other lores, can we compete?


Lore of Shadow is very good for Dark Elves. Combines well with our troops, and can synergize with both Dark Magic, and Death. This often makes our infantry much better, as we can get lots of S3 attacks off.


> Lords/ Heroes: Are we soft and dependent on magic items like feces covered skaven for warpstones?


Yes, but we have better magic items than just about anyone else.


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## Lither (Apr 2, 2010)

blackspine said:


> Infantry are T3/ S3. Very lack luster.


Looking at those characteristics, they are quite. However, infantry are also fast and have Hatred. Small units can be overlooked by an opponent (who is mostly justified in doing so), and can grab/ contest table quarters at the end of the game. Still, they're mostly hardly worth it. Repeater Crossbowmen can do a large amount of damage to enemies who have a low T and high AS. They can thin down dangerous enemy units before your best units strike.



blackspine said:


> *Monsters*: Manticores and malevolent dragons swooping out of the sky just don't have 1/2 the impact they used to. Now, they seem to be a liability. Hydras seem to be the only effective monster that Dark elves have.


Hydras I agree on. I knocked out a 15-man unit with one of those in a single turn (a very lucky double six for Breath Weapon attack and Hatred). Manticores and Black Dragons are underrated. A single lucky roll with a Manticore (and a failed Ward Save) can knock out your opponent's General, provided he isn't any of the exceptions. Also, a Manticore gives your Dark Elf a chance at Frenzy, too. Manticores are capable of hitting very hard. Dragons can (only the low-LD ones) paralyze a unit of your opponents, allowing other units to move in or flank. Though you might as well paint a bullseye on him, because whichever you take, every WM is going to start firing. They are a liability, but one you can use well.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Lither said:


> Looking at those characteristics, they are quite. However, infantry are also fast and have Hatred. Small units can be overlooked by an opponent (who is mostly justified in doing so), and can grab/ contest table quarters at the end of the game. Still, they're mostly hardly worth it. Repeater Crossbowmen can do a large amount of damage to enemies who have a low T and high AS. They can thin down dangerous enemy units before your best units strike.


There's no more table quarters in the new edition. However, you do have some points.. Repeater Crossbowmen can lay down a fairly devastating amount of fire. As well, Black Ark Corsairs with the Sea Serpent Standard are quite efficient at chopping through enemy units, and one of the best recipients for buffs.





> Hydras I agree on. I knocked out a 15-man unit with one of those in a single turn (a very lucky double six for Breath Weapon attack and Hatred). Manticores and Black Dragons are underrated. A single lucky roll with a Manticore (and a failed Ward Save) can knock out your opponent's General, provided he isn't any of the exceptions. Also, a Manticore gives your Dark Elf a chance at Frenzy, too. Manticores are capable of hitting very hard. Dragons can (only the low-LD ones) paralyze a unit of your opponents, allowing other units to move in or flank. Though you might as well paint a bullseye on him, because whichever you take, every WM is going to start firing. They are a liability, but one you can use well.


The big problem with a Manticore isn't its killing power, it's the fragility. T5 won't help you long when you have no armor. That thing's 200 points. The Dragon is better, but its problem is different. If you're taking a Dragon, you most likely have no room for a level 4, which can be crippling.


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## Lither (Apr 2, 2010)

Masked Jackal said:


> There's no more table quarters in the new edition. However, you do have some points.. Repeater Crossbowmen can lay down a fairly devastating amount of fire. As well, Black Ark Corsairs with the Sea Serpent Standard are quite efficient at chopping through enemy units, and one of the best recipients for buffs.


A small unit of ten Spearmen can easily be overlooked and make its points back grabbing a table quarter or stopping your opponent from doing so. Also, they're manuverable and can swing a combat in your favour by getting a tough enemy in the flank for combat resolution. Plus, larger units can soak up damage while giving away fewer VPs than the better, more equipped, units, so they make a good screen.




Masked Jackal said:


> The big problem with a Manticore isn't its killing power, it's the fragility. T5 won't help you long when you have no armor. That thing's 200 points. The Dragon is better, but its problem is different. If you're taking a Dragon, you most likely have no room for a level 4, which can be crippling.


Manticores and Dragons aren't going to be shot at much with conventional weaponry. They're mostly going to be shot at with high-S weaponry or weaponry which ignores AS. Mostly both. AS doesn't really come into play here. As for taking a Dragon, if you're playing a game where a Dragon is a _reasonable_ investment, you probably will be playing a game at a point level which lets you take 3+ Lord choices.


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

blackspine said:


> I'd like to stress that this is not a B&Moan thread, but a "hey do you have any ideas that I looked over? What makes the army so Wickedly Seductive to you?"


l to use to have DE (6th ed) but l no longer used them, and l got bored with them as l found chaos was more fun over all. Now l use them for special in house missions as an example on turn 4 roll 2d6 and on a 10 some DE come out from hiding to take some slaves etc, etc. 



Lither said:


> Manticores and Dragons aren't going to be shot at much with conventional weaponry.


to tell you the truth l laugh at manticores and dragons now from any race as they are no were near there point value, as for shooting have you vs lizard men blowpipes shooting poison?


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Lither said:


> A small unit of ten Spearmen can easily be overlooked and make its points back grabbing a table quarter or stopping your opponent from doing so. Also, they're manuverable and can swing a combat in your favour by getting a tough enemy in the flank for combat resolution. Plus, larger units can soak up damage while giving away fewer VPs than the better, more equipped, units, so they make a good screen.


Again, no table quarters. As well, there are better uses of the points. If you just want to grab a flank, a unit of Harpies or Shades are much better equipped to get there. Denying Steadfast? A larger block of Warriors is needed. You're suggesting Spearmen be used for a role they're not designed for. 5 harpies are going to do a lot more in this regard than 10 spearmen.



> Manticores and Dragons aren't going to be shot at much with conventional weaponry. They're mostly going to be shot at with high-S weaponry or weaponry which ignores AS. Mostly both. AS doesn't really come into play here. As for taking a Dragon, if you're playing a game where a Dragon is a _reasonable_ investment, you probably will be playing a game at a point level which lets you take 3+ Lord choices.


In my experience, they actually do get shot at a lot. Also, it's not just shooting, it's regular guys as well. Even Skaven troops can punch holes in a Manticore's hide really quickly. If you're going to be running a kitted out lord, I'd just put him on a Cold One, and catapult him out of a unit to tarpit the whole game.


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## Lither (Apr 2, 2010)

Actually, yes. I played Lizardmen a few times before choosing the Empire and finally Dark Elves. My horrible luck aside, I didn't find them the best investment. The range is too short and relies upon poison to earn their points back. 20 Repeater Crossbowmen can inflict severe casualties on low-T troops and are even better when Soulblight (or better - The Withering) cast upon the target. The high BS can let them get away with multi-shotting at above half range.



Masked Jackal said:


> Again, no table quarters. As well, there are better uses of the points. If you just want to grab a flank, a unit of Harpies or Shades are much better equipped to get there. Denying Steadfast? A larger block of Warriors is needed. You're suggesting Spearmen be used for a role they're not designed for. 5 harpies are going to do a lot more in this regard than 10 spearmen.


No table quarters? Sorry, I'm adjusting from playing 7th for a while.



> In my experience, they actually do get shot at a lot. Also, it's not just shooting, it's regular guys as well. Even Skaven troops can punch holes in a Manticore's hide really quickly. If you're going to be running a kitted out lord, I'd just put him on a Cold One, and catapult him out of a unit to tarpit the whole game.


Really? Whenever I field those, it's mostly magic and WMs pointing at them. In any case, the Ring of Darkness can stop that from being too much of a problem.


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## sybarite (Aug 10, 2009)

Masked Jackal said:


> If you're going to be running a kitted out lord, I'd just put him on a Cold One, and catapult him out of a unit to tarpit the whole game.


your an evil man but you are right and this has killed me a few times 



Lither said:


> Actually, yes. I played Lizardmen a few times before choosing the Empire and finally Dark Elves. My horrible luck aside, I didn't find them the best investment. The range is too short and relies upon poison to earn their points back.


what l mean and l have seen done this so many times now vs by the sounds of it less skilful people then yourself but.

manticore charges the unit pick's stand and shoot with 2x shot's the unit need's to roll a 6 to hit but with 40 shots it takes it down most of the time. 

but back to the main topic the big grip l have with them is, you can't do that well with them low point games.(2000 points and under) If l was to go back and play with my DE l think l will need the army to be at least 3000 points.

P.S. it might just be my luck or my bad playing but l never won a single game with my DE at 1500 points or under


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## Lither (Apr 2, 2010)

sybarite said:


> but back to the main topic the big grip l have with them is you can't do that well with them low point games (2000 points and under) if l was to go back and play with my DE l think it will need to be 3000 points at least.
> 
> P.S. it might just be my luck or my bad playing but l never won a single game with my DE at 1500 points or under


Yes, let's just get back on topic.

I agree with that point. The main focus with the Dark Elves is to use tactics as much as possible. Unlike horde armies, they have low troop types. Unlike "tar pit" armies like Dwarfs, they have poor AS and T. The main advantage is that they are fast and hatefull. I have similar problems in small games where my army is too small to scratch an enemy unit, and (very) large games of 5000+ pts where units get in the way of each other. The reason I play is to have a tactically challenging army which has excellent potential in the right situation. I could play Wood Elves, but they're just too fragile for me :laugh:.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

A very successful tactic with Dark Elves is to stack offensive power in one or two well-selected combats. A Cauldron of Blood is ideal for this. Additionally, magical buffs and hexes can be stacked as well. Lore of Shadow has several different spells that will make your units amazing. An 11-man CoK unit with Dreadlord, +1A from the Cauldron, and whatever Shadow debuffs you can get off, will handily rip through a unit in a couple rounds of combat. Hydras also make good support hammers, Just keep them alongside another unit and you can dual-charge for maximum benefit.


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