# Grey Knights



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

i was chatting to a couple of friends of mine about these guys the other day. and aside from Ben Counters books there seems to be little or no information on the Grey Knights aside from the fact they are very potent psykers and are at the call of the Inquistion (everytime someone says that i keep thinking monty python for some reason or other) anyway heres an idea.
at the end of the flight of the Eisentien you're wondering what happened to Garro and co is it possible that these remaining loyalists from the Death Guard and the lone remaining space wolf were the beginings of the Grey Knights althought seeing as the Grey Knights are psykers then that might just throw that idea out the window, any ideas and where can i find more information on them?


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

The Grey Knights aren't 'at the call of the inquisition' They are soley of the Inquisition - their Grand Master is on the council of the Maleus.

Also - the idea that Garro and co. became the founders of the Inquisition (not merely the GK) is a pretty common fan theory.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

didn't know that bit but i do wish there was some info out there on them seeing as they seem to be to the best of my knowledge near cadia and watching out for Abaddon and his barmy army. 
i really hope somone writes the Armageddon conflict and the battle with Angron i think that would be an awesome book to write.


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## Arbite (Jan 1, 2010)

Azezel said:


> The Grey Knights aren't 'at the call of the inquisition' They are soley of the Inquisition - their Grand Master is on the council of the Maleus.
> 
> Also - the idea that Garro and co. became the founders of the Inquisition (not merely the GK) is a pretty common fan theory.


They are at the call the inquisition. They are in themselves, a seperate marine chapter, through which the inquisition can acquire aid. According to Counter's novels anyway.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Arbite said:


> They are at the call the inquisition. They are in themselves, a seperate marine chapter, through which the inquisition can acquire aid. According to Counter's novels anyway.


But they are part of the Inquisition itself.



gothik said:


> didn't know that bit but i do wish there was some info out there on them seeing as they seem to be to the best of my knowledge near cadia and watching out for Abaddon and his barmy army.


The Grey Knights Chapter is based on Titan, one of Saturn's moons in the Sol System. But very rarely, if ever have they ever been utilised as a full chapter in a single conflict, they are where they need to be. After all, the threat of Chaos is present throughout the whole Imperium, not just the region surrounding the Eye of Terror.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

I highly doubt that Garro, Loken and Qruze were the founders of the Inquisition, or even the Ordo Malleus sub-sector. It would appease the hints in _The Flight of the Eisenstein_, the mysteries of their unknown Gene-seed and the like if they formed the Grey Knights Chapter, who may be encompassed by the founding of the Ordo Malleus at some point?

The forthcoming Garro Audio-books will no doubt reveal more on this intruiging subject.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

The grey knights are not organised like a standard codex chapter, they are there solely to combat the greatest threat to the imperium, the daemonic.

There are rumours that the grey knights number up to 5000 marines, although GW has never revealed their true number, 1000 is no where near enough to police the entire galaxy. They don't have battle companies or groups in the same way as regular marines, nor do they have a chaper master, but rather a council of Grand masters

Personally I think that Garro was the 1st GK, GK training and battle doctrine is very similar to the preheresy deathguard, and it would appear from hints in FotE that Garro was a latent psyker, all GKs are recruited as psykers anyway.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

well if the Dark Angels have thier secrets then the great keepers of secrets seem to be the Grey Knights i for one wouldn't want a psyker the size of a mountain coming after me thanks but thanks for the info


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

gothik said:


> well if the Dark Angels have thier secrets then the great keepers of secrets seem to be the Grey Knights i for one wouldn't want a psyker the size of a mountain coming after me thanks but thanks for the info


Psyker the size of a mountain? I'm intrigued as to who you're talking about


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## Thorin Hubertson (Jun 12, 2010)

gothik said:


> ...at the end of the flight of the Eisentien you're wondering what happened to Garro and co is it possible that these remaining loyalists from the Death Guard and the lone remaining space wolf were the beginings of the Grey Knights althought seeing as the Grey Knights are psykers then that might just throw that idea out the window...


Usual tactic - Games Workshop presents two stories, which are directly contrary one to another. Garro &co maybe the first Grey Knights, or they may simply have been imprisoned and killed.
There was one of the Space Wolves onboard the Eisenstein? I think it will have been one of the Luna Wolves/ Sons of Horus?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Psyker the size of a mountain? I'm intrigued as to who you're talking about


Keepers of the Secrets are the little dudes who hold Azrael's helm. I assume a Great Keepr of Secrets is a giant psychic Ringwraith wannabe.

Midnight


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## Worldkiller (Jun 16, 2010)

Another theory on where the GK come from is towars/at the end of the HH Malcador found loyalist librarians from the traitor legions and presented the to the emperor who from them made the GK because they were the most loyal marines in his service and could not possibly turn to chaos. I also think Garro had more hand in founding the inquisition than the GK because of what's written at the end of FotE.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

The only definitive thing we know is that the grey knights were founded from loyalists within the ranks of the traitor legions, those who had witnessed the fall of thier legions but had resisted its curruption.

Technically there should not be any librarians during the Heresy because of the council of Nikea


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

MidnightSun said:


> Keepers of the Secrets are the little dudes who hold Azrael's helm. I assume a Great Keepr of Secrets is a giant psychic Ringwraith wannabe.
> 
> Midnight


Keepers of Secrets are the Slaanesh Greater Daemons, those little figures in robes who hold Azrael's helmet are a race of Xenos so I doubt there is a 'Great' version- certainly not one that's a lot bigger than a human.

And there absolutely no reason they'd have anything to do with Grey Knights- I'm not even sure why it came up.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

No, I'm pretty sure they're called Keepers of the Secrets. Although they might be called Helm Bearers....

Midnight

EDIT: Sorry, just checked and they're called Watchers in the Dark. Doh!


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## Tel Asra Nejoar (Mar 16, 2010)

off topic:theyre called watchers in the dark.
on topic: for myself, i like the secrecy of the founding of the GK, it just fits theyre MO perfectly that we do not know.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Barnster said:


> The only definitive thing we know is that the grey knights were founded from loyalists within the ranks of the traitor legions, those who had witnessed the fall of thier legions but had resisted its curruption.
> 
> Technically there should not be any librarians during the Heresy because of the council of Nikea


In A Thousand Sons it suggests that there was not a ban on Librarians as such, just a ban on them using sorcery.
Psykers were not the problem, it was the TS delving too deeply into dangerous stuff that the Emperor was worried about.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Barnster said:


> The only definitive thing we know is that the grey knights were founded from loyalists within the ranks of the traitor legions, those who had witnessed the fall of thier legions but had resisted its curruption.
> 
> Technically there should not be any librarians during the Heresy because of the council of Nikea


It's a theory with a lot of circumstantial evidence but we don't know for certain that the GK were founded from marines that remained loyal when the rest of their legions turned traitor.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Barnster said:


> There are rumours that the grey knights number up to 5000 marines, although GW has never revealed their true number, 1000 is no where near enough to police the entire galaxy.


Even if they numbered five thousand, that is still no way near enough to protect the entire Imperium from the Daemonic.



Barnster said:


> Personally I think that Garro was the 1st GK, GK training and battle doctrine is very similar to the preheresy deathguard, and it would appear from hints in FotE that Garro was a latent psyker, all GKs are recruited as psykers anyway.


The problem with 'Garro being a latent Psyker' theory is that firstly its not even hinted at (if I remember correctly) in _Flight of the Eisenstein_. Secondly Mortarion hated psykers with a passion, and would not permit any into the ranks of the Death Guard (although Garro was inducted into the Dusk Raiders pre-Mortarion, so he may have bypassed such measures). Thirdly, the Grey Knights are heavily implied to bear their geneseed/genetic code directly from the Emperor himself, Garro doesn't, he bears Mortarion's. This seems to be the main issue standing in the way of 'Garro founding the Grey Knights' theory. Of course there is always the possibility of faith powers, considering he was worhsipping the Emperor as a god by the end of _Flight_, but thats a whole different ball game. In my view, Garro almost certainly has *something* to do with the Inquisition, most likely the Ordo Malleus - but whether it has anything directly to do with the Grey Knights is yet to be seen.



normtheunsavoury said:


> In A Thousand Sons it suggests that there was not a ban on Librarians as such, just a ban on them using sorcery.
> Psykers were not the problem, it was the TS delving too deeply into dangerous stuff that the Emperor was worried about.


Actually _A Thousand Sons_ (aswell as the _Collected Visions_) directly states that all Librarians were outlawed in all the Legio Astartes, not just the sorcerous practises of the Thousand Sons.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

ok so heres one to just throw out there what would hapen if the GK became the next leigon to fall to chaos...i mean considering where they are based as well too close to home and it makes me wonder if some element of the Thousand sons is not used here after all they were mainly all psykers of some form or other....


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gothik said:


> ok so heres one to just throw out there what would hapen if the GK became the next leigon to fall to chaos...


Just to be picky, they are a Chapter not a Legion, and whilst there are no recorded individual Grey Knights who have fallen to Chaos, I consider it possible. But the entire Chapter falling to Chaos? Next to impossible (at least in the current status quo).



gothik said:


> i mean considering where they are based as well too close to home and it makes me wonder if some element of the Thousand sons is not used here after all they were mainly all psykers of some form or other....


There is really no evidence whatsoever to suggest that the Thousand Sons had anything to do with the formation of the Grey Knights.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

I think the clearest thing about the GKs founded is there is alot of hinted evidence and alot of circumstantial evidence, which has led to alot of different theories, we really don't know.

Garro is fan favourite and its hinted he had something to do with the inquisition. Malcador talked to Garro and he presented him to the emperor. Garro had met the emperor previously, maybe he was "marked" then. Garros hatred for the daemonic is well known, and his religious awakening lead to him praying to the emperor, and whenever he had doubts his prayers would suddenly be answer by a eurika moment, The emperor helping him maybe? He had a psychic conversation with the saint before she came aboard and when he needed help (forgotten her name, keller?). It is also not completely unknown for individuals to start to become psychicly aware, the rememberer from a thousand sons and even Gabriel angelos in the BR trilogy. Indeed that was Magnus's great plan. 

Grey knight training is centred on relentlessnes and resilence, both physical and psychic, rather death guardish traits. Focused mainly on footslogging infantry, again rather death guardish. 

The only sticky point is the geneseed but maybe the original founding members never had the emps GS but rather new initiates who came in as the 1st new grey knights received it


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

I stand corrected "chapter" but even so although it is unlikely that is not to say impossible, i supppose once upon a time they said that about the Leigons and the Primarchs Astartes shall not fire upon Astartes i was just wondering as you do when your moind starts heading off at a tangent with the Grey Knights being too close to home a what if scenario....what if they turned to chaos etc etc thats all


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Barnster said:


> Garro is fan favourite and its hinted he had something to do with the inquisition. Malcador talked to Garro and he presented him to the emperor. Garro had met the emperor previously, maybe he was "marked" then. Garros hatred for the daemonic is well known, and his religious awakening lead to him praying to the emperor, and whenever he had doubts his prayers would suddenly be answer by a eurika moment, The emperor helping him maybe? He had a psychic conversation with the saint before she came aboard and when he needed help (forgotten her name, keller?). It is also not completely unknown for individuals to start to become psychicly aware, the rememberer from a thousand sons and even Gabriel angelos in the BR trilogy. Indeed that was Magnus's great plan.


Garro`s so-called ''prayers'' being answered in several circumstances, most notably upon the frigate, the _Eisenstein_, were probably telepathic communication by Euphrati Keeler. Though of course this in turn may have been induced by the Emperor, as Keeler was noted to have no psyking ability of her own (although again, the Emperor may have ignited her hidden/dormant abilities).

That said, if my memory serves me correctly, Garro`s prayers were answered upon the Sisters of Silence Monastery during his battle against tainted Death Guard. And with Keeler in custody, it may not have been her, but the Emperor from Terra?

The hint`s from Malcador, the Sigillite are obvious clues to _something_, to come. Whether that be the founding of the Grey Knights, or the Ordo Malleus or even the entire Inquisition, it remains to be seen.

I would also not put Garviel Loken out of this, who knows, maybe he will join Garro and Qruze in the 666th Chapter?


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

hmm i heard a discussion or two from the lads at GW York when all this came about and apart from wanting to kiss them senseless for getting me a signed copy of Leigon when work commitments meant i could not make he who shall be obeyed Dan Abnett decided to head down to our neck of the woods, they were quite divided there were a couple who said no way Garvi is dead, Abaddon did him in, there were those that said, no he is unconsceious he is near death but not quite and whose to say he won't get rescued...lets say for a moment he is alive...hmm grudge match of the millenium i mean if Garvi was anything to do with the the GK and the Inquisition hypothetically speaking what a way to get revenge on former mournival brother Abaddon from beyound the grave. in reality i am inclinned to believe that Garvi is dead and died on Istvaan still would be a delicious thought.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Actually its been confirmed that Loken survived Isstvan III and will return at some point in the Heresy series (something which I wish wasn't the case). No doubt he will play a major role at some point throughout the Heresy, quite possibly something to do with the Inquisition.


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## ClassyRaptor (Apr 7, 2010)

My mate at GW confirmed that Garron becomes the First Space Marine Inquisitor.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Your mate at GW has no more inside info regarding background, unless he is a writer for them, than the rest of us- that's what he *thinks* Garro becomes.


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## Cyrion (Apr 17, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Actually its been confirmed that Loken survived Isstvan III and will return at some point in the Heresy series (something which I wish wasn't the case). No doubt he will play a major role at some point throughout the Heresy, quite possibly something to do with the Inquisition.


Where'd you hear that?


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Actually its been confirmed that Loken survived Isstvan III and will return at some point in the Heresy series (something which I wish wasn't the case). No doubt he will play a major role at some point throughout the Heresy, quite possibly something to do with the Inquisition.


I like to think that he is the one that Horus kills to make the Emperor kill him, just a thought.

CS


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Cyrion said:


> Where'd you hear that?


Question Time with Dan Abnett- those videos he makes where he answers the most popular questions he receives.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Yeah, he says something along the lines of "Reports of Lokens demise have been grossly exagerated, we will see him again in the future"
It might not be exactly what he said but it's close.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

i stand corrected from the words of the master himself.....be interesting to see what happens with garvi in the future...although i am sorta suspecting he might have something to do with little horus seeing as so far little is mentioned of him exceopt he killed Tarik.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

gothik said:


> ok so heres one to just throw out there what would hapen if the GK became the next leigon to fall to chaos...i mean considering where they are based as well too close to home and it makes me wonder if some element of the Thousand sons is not used here after all they were mainly all psykers of some form or other....


If it were to happen, however unlikely, it somehow strikes me as similar to order 66 in star wars i.e. being spread so thinly across the galaxy with relatively small numbers they'd probably be marked as a top priority by the imperium and overwhelmed.

Also I wouldn't completely rule out Garro forming or being recruited to the Grey Knights. Garro's conversation with Malcador hints this and is similar to the GK's backround fluff in codex Daemonhunters. :

"Malcador inclined his head in a tiny gesture. 'There is a matter to which you will be set, not today, perhaps not for many months, but eventually. The Warmaster's disposition has made it clear that *the Imperium requires men and women of inquisitive nature, hunters who might seek the witch, the traitor, the mutant, the xenos... Warriors like you, Nathaniel Garro,* Iacton Qruze, Amendera Kendel, who could root out the taint of any future treachery: a duty to vigilance.'"

TFotE pp. 404 

Now Garro may indeed form the inquisition but Malcador may not necessarily ONLY be referring to the inquisition here, he says he needs "men and women of an inquisitive nature" obviously inquisitors but perhaps ALSO "Warriors like you, Nathaniel Garro" i.e. grey knights. The GK entry looks teasingly similar in codex daemonhunters 

"The fragile imperium had only just survived the galactic civil war of the Horus Heresy, and was still very much at the mercy of the powers of Chaos. The Emperor understood that it would require *a dedicated band of incorruptible warriors to protect it from the dread creatures of chaos in the days to come, and so the creation of the Grey Knights was undertaken in great secrecy.*"

Codex Daemonhunters pp. 6

However it might be just coincidence as it was written by Chambers/Kelly/McNeill whereas TFotE was written by James Swallow.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

guess that almost says it all


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## Cyrion (Apr 17, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Question Time with Dan Abnett- those videos he makes where he answers the most popular questions he receives.


Ahhhhh, thanks.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Vali ThunderAxe said:


> My mate at GW confirmed that Garron becomes the First Space Marine Inquisitor.


Dude, the HH team is still sorta discussing what Garro becomes, with several potential options, so your mate is lying if he says he knows for sure.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

and thats the whole idea rumours whispers and no one knows for sure what will happen till it happens...thats gw for you


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## ClassyRaptor (Apr 7, 2010)

I know I didn't believe him because I thought Garro would become the first Grey Knight seeing as though he was literally the first Space Marine to battle and banish a deamon himself. Sure you can think back to Horus rising in those hills but that was a possesed marine, sure it was a deamon but it was decimated by like 10 marines with bolter rounds. I mean any marine can do that.

But Garro fought I think at least 2 deamons hand to hand combat and beat the,. Nurgle deamons for that matter.

And I thought Loken was mortaly wounded by abby then an Imperator Titan ca sploded the building he was in. How in the hell of it do you survive that?


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

well Tarik lost his head at the hands of little Horus and as you say Garviel was battered by Abaddon and then crushed under the rubble curtosy of Des Irae still if the great man says his death has been greatly exaggerated then maybe he is still alive...barely alive albeit...and these guys were the original SMs they are said to be more tougher then thier modern day counterparts so who really knows what punishment they can stand,


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Maybe GW should put out a fluff book the tells all the story from begining to the present.

Like in lost and the damned told the story of before and aftre the emperor


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Why put out one book that they could ask maybe £50 - £60 for when they can put out an endless stream of books all for £8 ?
Releasing one definitive explanation would limit all the fluff too much and wouldn't leave room for further expansion.


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