# Empire Advice: suggestions?



## blackspine (Jun 9, 2010)

Ahoy all.

I'm currently deciding between Skaven and Empire for my next army/shamefulproject.

I know quite a bit about Skaven. Enough to feel comfortable on making a decision on purchasing them (after all, I jumped into Beasts knowing jack)

Empire however, I know little of. 
They have accurate guns. Access to every lore. 
This new book seems to have pushed their close combat up many notches. They seem to be an army that can deal with elite armies now. Especially supported by cheap cannons.

How does the army truly play?
Is there a site/forum that's 'cannon' (excuse the pun)

thanks for the help!


----------



## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

The web site for Empire is Warhammer-Empire.com.

The Skaven web site is called The_UnderEmpire on zetaboards.com.

Both are interesting armies to play. Skaven is superior but less predictable and you can find discussions on Skaven by searching, so I'll discuss impressions on the new empire army book. 
An empire army can be run with a focused core of large, steadfast blocks of infantry that are slightly over-priced but become competitive with warrior priests and their prayers and captains or generals making it hard to break them or a focused core of heavily armoured cavalry units with warrior priests and captains, general and/or grandmaster or a mix of the two. Archers (march and shoot skirmishers) are now cheaper and can be parent or detachment core, so they are useful as diverters and to babysit characters (a wizard to be kept out of combat or a master engineer gets a look out sir and abilty to free reform and escape threats with the skirmish unit). With the changes in pricing, most go with either cheap spearmen or halberdiers as the core infantry with maybe archers as cheap diverter/march and shoot skirmish units as detachments. The increased points cost of swordsmen makes them harder to justfiy. The lower cost of 1+ AS knights and the ability to have one unit inner circle knights (S4, instead of S3) as part of the core requirement really make them viable. Also, you can run a unit or two of knights with a 2+ AS and great weapons as part of core (good for going after S3 units and holding up S3 units where a 2+ AS is a good as a 1+ AS and the great weapon provides rounds of S5). The new detachment rules allow a detachment within 3" of its parent to use the leadership and psychology benefits (including hatred, prayers of warrior priests, stubborn, steadfast, immune to psych, hold the line, and stupidity) of the parent unit. 

Your battle wizard casters are basic, reasonably costed and have access to all of the lores, which makes lore of life and beasts and the other lores available. A single lvl 4 with some (two or even 3) warrior priests in your primary combat units is usually enough magic options. 
Warrior priests are now cheaper and buff their units with hatred (does not transfer to other charactiers in unit) and prayers. They also can channel power and dispel dice but no longer automatically generate them. They can single dice prayers (bound spell lvl 3) casting them 2/3rds of the time and the prayers benefit both the unit and any detachment within 3" to the unit. The prayers are meant for combat, (re-roll all fail to wound rolls in close combat until next friendly magic phase, 5+ ward save for WP and unit agaisnt wounds in close combat until next friendly magic phase, WP and unit get flaming attacks and all enemy models in contact with WP take S4 hit-S5 if daemon or undead- when cast). Thus having protection for the WP to survive combat is recommended. Arch lectors are cheaper lord-level warrior priests. 

If one wanted to avoid having a general of the empire or grand master as the general, an arch lector is a viable option as a more expensive WP with 3 wounds and a 100 point magic point allowance. An arch lector can also be mounted on a war altar chariot which extends his hatred augment to all friendly units within 6" and all battle prayers cast by the arch lector on a war altar benefit all friendly units within 6". However, while the arch lector is now cheaper (no longer automatically generates two dispel dice but now can channel power and dispel dice), the war alter is more expensive, its 4+ ward save no longer protects the arch lector mounted on it, it is now stubborn instead of unbreakable, no longer has magic resistance, and it only grants one bound spell (power 4) banishment, instead of the lore of light options it used to have. Thus, the war alter/arch lector option is more expensive (especially having to buy a ward save for the arch lector) and more vulnerable in 8th edition to cannons and similar template weapons and spells. (A war alter in the old book gave itself and the lord a 2+ ward to spells that allowed ward saves and a 4+ ward to everything else and was unbreakable. With the magic points options, the arch lector could also afford a high re-rollable armour save and/or the old speculum to swap stats with a character in a challenge making him very tough to kill in combat or by magic and effective at killing with some of the weapons options. That is no longer possible when you have to spend points on the AL's ward save and there is no MR and no unbreakable.) 

Other than the ability to take full plate armour, the general (lord) and captain (BSB) are pretty basic characters for their costs but they allow their units to roll three dice on break tests (like cold-blooded rule for lizards). 

Special: The demigryph knights (monstrous cav) in the new book are automatic choices but best unranked in units of 3 or 4. The 1+ AS and 3 S5, AP attacks and three wounds of the mount really are the pay off but you only get one supporting attack from the rider in the second rank, so DG knights are better run as smaller, hammer units. Also, the DG is not a mount option for any hero or lord characters (the author of the book ought to be shot for that omission, at least a grandmaster should have the option) so the only way to get a character in the unit is when mounted on a peg. 

Reiksguard knights are worth playing as stubborn smaller cav units to charge and hold up something with their 1+ AS and S4. Greatswords are woth playing only because they are stubborn and have 4+ AS, great weapons, and can take a magic banner. They can make their detachments stubborn but only if within 3", so running cheap stubborn archer units as diverters attached to greatswords is a strategy. However, the points cost of greatswords is about a 1 poinit per model too high (a WP in the unit with prayers getting off does make a larger unit of these worth playing). Units of outriders or pistoliers can be worth playing for the fast cav abilities and shooting. GW nerfed the flagellants (no longer able to be part of core with a WP in the army, less reliable and more costly martyr rules, and higher points cost) to the point that I think they are unplayable. 

Rare: The new version of the steam tank is cheaper and definitely worth playing. T6 (instead of T10) makes it more vulnerable to being wounded but is still is unbreakable and even if the steam engine misfires, you still have a good chance (taking fewer steam points) of doing something. Also, opponents must now roll to hit the tank in combat. The cannon is now more viable, the steam gun in combat is more viable but movement is random and less predictable. 

I have heard of some people using one of the two new magic chariots, the celestial hurricanium with its ability to buff units within 6" with +1 to hit in combat and also giving +1 power dice to the army but its bound spell (power 4) is kind of goofy and unpredictable (some people like it). 

Artillery: Now an engineer must declare which war machine he will assist before firing and can only lend his BS and re-roll ability to that machine. They nerfed mortars (which were rediculously under costed in the prior book) by lowering their hit S to S2 (S6 under hole) and making it more expensive. However, they made the hellblaster volley gun (HBVG) when with an engineer quite worthwhile. The HBVG with engineer has an extremely low risk of a damaging misfire and will average 17 shots and lots of hits with the engineer's BS. S5 AP hits will cut through a lot of premium units and models but the cost is wasted against cheaper horde armies, like skaven. Cannons are a bit more expensive but still worth playing. A strategy is to bunker a master engineer in a unit (often detachment) of archers (free reform and march and shoot ability) within 3" of a HBVG and a cannon and use the engineer on the cannon when the enemy is beyond 24" and use the engineer on the HBVG when within 24". Since the artillery is more expensive or less effective than in the past, except for the HBVG and rocket, and the steam tank has a viable cannon and can fire often even if its has a steam misfire, expect fewer war machines and more stanks.


----------



## blackspine (Jun 9, 2010)

Thanks a ton, Olderplayer.
I can't give you rep right now. but the moment I can, I'll bombard you with it.

Shame about the Flagellents. I was looking forward to those as my core. Knights as a hard hitting CORE option are rather amazing. Stubborn 1+ as knights (specials) are too good. Esp since they're almost 2/3 the cost of Chaos Knights (and stubborn) (though not as killy)

To be honest, I enjoy some of the fixes in the shooting. Mortars being brought down from absurd levels. But Steam tanks are still rough...though I laugh at the lore of only 10-12 existing...yet some players taking two.
The demigryphs are rock solid. I've seen them in action and they cut through chaos warriors like nobody's business. 

Thanks again. 
Off to the forums!


----------



## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Glad to help. I've been assembling and buying models for an empire army after having bought a lot of models a while ago from someone no longer playing WHFB (economic and family reasons) and waiting for the new book.

The empire army is interesting, competitive, and worth playing but the author of the army book did a poor job IMO of balancing the points costing of units and unit options and did not choose to add options that were logical, like a DG mount for a captain and grandmaster and a war wagon. Spearmen, militia, and halberdiers each could be .5 points apiece cheaper than in the new book, shield options of .5 points would have been appropriate for core infantry, and swordsmen, crossbowmen and handgunners did not need to be increased in points costs by 1 point each. However, they did make the detachment rules a lot more viable (detachments of core units count toward core points), made archers more viable as detachments and independent units, and the new battle prayers and lower points costs of WP did make core infantry and cavalry more effective if those prayers get off (maybe the reason for the over-costing of the core and special infantry options). Double nerfing mortars (which needed nerfing some, I hating playing those with my black guard getting killed) and flaggies (they were fairly priced before IMO, especially if not in core) was over-the-top. Finally, a war wagon with an augment area effect (+1 to hit), shooting by crew, and with better armour save would have been a better rare choice option than the two goofy rare wizard chariots they dreamed up and better fit the traditional empire fluff. It is not a bad book, just not as creative and balanced internally or as well thought out as the Vampire and Ogres books were in the context of the new 8th edition format.


----------



## blackspine (Jun 9, 2010)

I agree with everything you said.
Except the mortars. 

That much shooting for so cheap led to some crazy uncontrolled shooting phases. If it was still as cheap / good, people wouldn't branch out to the other utilities given.

I still can't belive that a captain or WP CANT go on a F'in Demigryph. It's kind of absurd. Why add a keen MC/B if a char chant go on it? 

I do wish that they revived the knight chapters: Panthers, KotBS, Wolves, etc. It was a great way to redo the old knight models and sell a truck ton of new figures.....an opportunity missed.

The detatchments got the fix they needed and counter charge is very fun.

Still, with cheap cannons and the HTL rule, the empire is quite amazing. Easily collected with Knights being core and just a few other key purchases. 

I don't like the idea of a 'light lazer', but the +1 to hit one is beyond fantastic.


----------



## blackspine (Jun 9, 2010)

do they even make White wolves anymore? did they used to come as conversions for knights?


----------



## KjellThorngaard (Oct 4, 2010)

> I do wish that they revived the knight chapters: Panthers, KotBS, Wolves, etc. It was a great way to redo the old knight models and sell a truck ton of new figures.....an opportunity missed.


what do you mean? I tried reading what older said and didn't see that.



> do they even make White wolves anymore? did they used to come as conversions for knights?


As far as I know the parts are still in the knights box. I bought on about a year ago and built/painted them two months ago and the White Wolf parts were there. See this:

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=78034&page=10

My White Wolf knights are about halfway down.


----------



## blackspine (Jun 9, 2010)

KjellThorngaard said:


> what do you mean? I tried reading what older said and didn't see that.




I meant that the chapters should have had some different entries. Like Panthers have a +1 ws, KOTBS have a 6+ ward, etc etc. Of course all for a price. White wolves having the cavalry maces (+2 str on charge, +1 otherwise)

Mostly, the models really show their age. Some new plastic models would rock. Think about the new Black knights/Hex wraiths, and how amazing those models are.


----------



## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Yes, unfortunately, the author of the new army book decided not to create a number of different orders with different characteristics. White wolves are basically core or inner circle core knights with great weapons. A white wolf basically an optional weapon selection for core and core inner circle knights that replaces the lance with the great weapon for +2S in all rounds of combat but strikes last and loses the shield benefit, so a white wolf is a 2+ armour save 5S model if core and 2+ AS S6 model if inner circle knights. Reiksguard are special choice inner circle knights with stubborn. The other orders are just fluff for painting purposes. 

The cav models are dated but look okay with decent painting and conversion work. They certainly are not as nice as the current standards GW is generally applying on some of the new plastic models (hit or miss). The tails break off, so one has to be a bit creative on those. GW probably has an inventory of the current models and the molds are still good enough that new models are not cost effective yet. Once the old molds get used up and/or the inventory is sold out then I would expect to see new plastic models.


----------



## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

I just played an empire army at a major Indy GT and my son (Lizardmen, won best general going 4-1 by consistently winning max objectives points and getting a better sports score to just beat out one 5-0 player) played another empire army that went 4-1.

Both armies did went and were surprisingly effective. 
My battle:
The army I played had a parent unit of approx 50 halberds with two 20+ detachments of spearmen, one on each side. He used heavily protected characters (max armour and ward saves) in the front rank (general, captain, and warrior priest all had good armour and ward saves but his witch hunter was less well protected) to limit the ability to direct attacks on the rank and file (champ, standard and musician could fill slots in the front rank not occupied by characters and allow the lvl 4 and lvl 2 to sit in the second rank) and thus limit opposing combat res and yet his second rank halberds could hit hard with S4 and +1 to hit and possibly re-roll to wound prayer. He hid his level 4 (beasts) and lvl 2 (metal got transmutation) in the second rank of the big parent unit. He ran two cannons and on HBVG with one engineer between the three as artillery. He then ran a unit of six reiksguard with a warrior priest as well. The halberds and spearmen detachments covered one luminark and one hurricanium. 

The +1 to hit from the hurricanium was quite effective and the 6+ ward save from the luminark was also reaonsably effective in swinging combat resolution. By running his parent unit narrow and deep, he ensured steadfast and a re-rollable cold-blooded break test. The extra power dice and extra dispel dice given by those two chariots also proved to be important in allowing him to thwart my magic a bit and get off a cheap bound spell. If he gets up the 5+ ward or the re-roll to wound prayer in combat, the parent unit becomes very effective. The result is that my bloodletter horde (which was cut down by a third by a transmutation spell the got off irresistably) ultimately was destroyed in combat but succeeded in killing his WP, BSB captain and witch hunter. 

The reiksguard unit is very effective with it stubborn and 1+ AS, especially if its WP gets off a spell, like the 5+ ward. It ties up something to limit the threats. 

I barely won with a daemons of chaos army. I won only because killing blow on my bloodletters allowed me to eventually kill most of his characters (all but the general) and I had obstacles and a building on the table sufficient to shield my 3 fiend unit and greater daemon of slaanesh from cannons ball hits on turn one and they and one unit of chaos furies ran over his war machines and engineer and eventually killed his luminark and hurricanium. My 6 fleshhounds with a flank bonus from a second unit of furies got lucky in combat (and on their first instability test) and eventually killed his reiksguard but his WP successfully fled. Also, a special rule for that round allowed me to stop shooting by one unit (his HBVG) for one turn allowing one unit of my furies placed in front of the HBVG to screen my fiends and greater daemon to get into combat without being shot up. 

The Other Empire Build
The empire army that went 4-1 was very focused with a huge inner circle knights unit with WP, wizard, captain BSB (maybe also a general or grandmaster). He had two units of demigryph knights to hit hard and hold up units. Finally, he ran an Arch lector on a war altar and a steam tank and some artillery. He avoided the heavy cannon armies and armies with killing blow. His DG knights ran through a lot of units with all the attacks of the DG mounts and the 1+ AS and then his big (24 or more) cav block rolled up a big unit. In the battle with my son's lizardmen army, my son had a bad round of magic at a critical point and he narrowly lost due to the ability of the knight's 1+ AS to survive a lot of attacks (from saurus and temple guard) and shooting (skinks). 

Thus, two very different empire armies both were relatively successful and very competitive.


----------



## blackspine (Jun 9, 2010)

Thanks for the feedback! 
what Indy GT was this?

I chose Empire for the flexibility and different army options. 
Warrior priests and Witch hunters are very efficient at what they do for their cost.

I'm deciding on what to do with the Knights. I'm thinking of a "Army of Morr". Maybe VC black Knight horses with Knights on them?
I love the knights in the army book, but the models are a HUGE turn off.


----------



## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

The witch hunter I faced did not do so well other than allow the lvl 4 and lvl 2 to sit in the second rank of a 50 model halberd unit with the command models and captain and general in the front. 


The Indy GT was Wargamescon in Austin Texas. It is sponsored by and used to be called Bell of Lost Souls until GW claimed that name. It is a wargaming convention with lots of manufacturers present (privateer press, Mantic, battlefoam, etc) and somne of the newer or less-known games (DUST) were exhibited. The convention included full 40K, WHFB, Warmachine and Hordes, and Flames of War tournaments on Sat. and Sun. as well as one day 3+ game specialized tournaments throughout the day on Friday and open gaming Thursday night. The WHFB group was 44, below our usual tournouts, because a number of potential WHFB players chose to play 40K or Warmachine or Flames of War. A number of top 50 RHQ ranked players were there, including Aaron Chapman (#2 in US WHFB on RHQ) winning the overall award with a unique Garden of Morr themed Warrior of Chaos build (no warshrines, two very large MoK marauder with great weapon units run either as hordes or deep in ranks for steadfast, big unit of flaming warriors, three units of 5 hounds, and a big command unit of knights with a stubborn MoTz fighting lord on disc and a MoTz lvl 2 on chaos steed with puppet and third eye to punish miscasts and steal spells).


I like the Morr themed army. I don't mind the cav models, even if they are dated and not as attractive as the new models GW is turning out. You can do stuff with painting and conversions to make the models work. The ability to get 1+ AS and the 5+ ward and re-roll to hit and well as flaming when needed with the WP is huge. It really allows you to get a lot of armour on your characters and win a lot of combats. I'm seeing success with a 6 model reiksguard used to tar pit something tough or do some killing with a WP in the unit. The 4 model DG knights are undercosted for when they can do. So, a knight focused Empire army makes a lot of sense.


----------

