# Best way to use Blood Angels



## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

Call me a 40k newbie if you must, but I haven't had any experience in fighting since switching over to blood angels from regular marines last year (It's hard to line up games where I am, we have no games workshop)

Since switching over I've managed to get a stormraven, baal predator, drop pod and sanguinary guard.

Everything else is pretty much tactical marines and some devastators. Oh and two dreadnoughts, one from black reach and one with a missile launcher and lascannon (it was used and it's metal I can't budge it to switch weapons)

I also have my HQ choice and honour guard. (see pics here) http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=100393&page=3


No assault marines, the sanuginary guard and honour guard are the only jump infantry. 

I just don't know how to use blood angels in comparison to regular space marines. The armies I play against most are Space Wolves and Imperial Guard. 

The last time I played the Space wolves (before I switched to BA) I was destroyed by their Wolf Lord after he deflected 16 bolter rounds with his face... and the last time I fought the Imperial guard, I was pummeled to death by the master of ordinance and earth shaker rounds eating half my army before I could get close.

So please, how do the blood angels play differently and what tactics could I use to defeat these armies?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Ok, well, my 2000 point list is :

2 Librarians (Shield, Sword, Infernus pistol)
2 Priests (PW)
4 Razorback Assault Squads with Meltagun, Las/Plas and Dozer
1 Razor Assault Squad with Meltagun and TL HF
3 Squadrons of 2 MM/HF Speeders
3 AutoLas Preds.

As you can see, I take advantage of the Fast Rhino chassis to bring overwhelming firepower to a target, whilst having a modicum of combat potential for emergencies.

The other real way to approach BA competitively is to use Jump Packs - an army of these guys can overcome the difficulties of lack of mobility when no Transports are used, though the protection missing can be an issue - as can Tank Shocks, and Blasts when/if you DoA.

You can build other types of BA army, of course, for instance Kirby's Blood Rodeo, or my ThunderStorm, but if you aren't utilising the STRENGTHS and unique aspects of the Codex, then you might as well not be playing BA at all.

Tactical Marines don't allow you to do that, unfortunately.


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

Blood Angels are a really great army. That's all I play. They are one of the most flexible army books out there. But that flexibility can be a drawback too. There are so many options, you can get overwhelmed and over diversified. Too many options is just a bad as not enough. 


You need to decide on a theme. Do you want your army to be Razorback Spam, DOA, Dreadnought Death, Hybrid, etc.? The combinations are numerous. I'd suggest you take what most appeals to you about BA and build an army around that.

I personally love assault marines. I also love balance. So I often run hybrid lists with several assault squads and HS options like Devastators and Predators.

With what you have you could run a decent hybrid force. Here's what I would do:

HQ - Dante? Meph? (hopefully Dante to place with Sanguinary Guard)
* Honor guard with jump packs and melta guns 
E - Sanguinary guard with some infernus pistols and banner
E - Librarian Dreadnought (Convert multi melta from Black Reach model to be the Force weapon) - Wings of Sanguinious
E - Convert some Sanguinary priests - Give one a jump pack
T - 10 man tac squad with flamer and missile launcher
T - 10 man tac squad with flamer and missile launcher
FA - Balls Predator - TL assault cannon and Heavy Bolter sponsons
HS - Stormraven - TL lascannon, TL multi melta, Extra Armor
HS - Devastators - 4 missile launchers
HS - Dreadnought - lascannon and missile launcher

(Reserve HG, SG, Stormraven, and Balls Pred)
Dante joins the SG and they use tactical precision to DS and rock any tank with infernus melta.
The HG DS and do the same with their Meltaguns
Libby dread operates as a mobile Psychic Hood, MC hunter, CC Beat Stick, bait, etc.
Priests give FNP and FC bubbles
Combat squad the Tac Squads into 5 guys with ML and 5 guys with Flamer and Sgt. Use the ML team to sit back field as a mini dev squad. Use the 5 guys with flamer and Sgt to grab objectives.
Balls shoots at weak armor (11 or less) or foot slogging squads
Devs shoot enemy armor or troops with ML
Dreadnought does the same with it's ML and Lascannon
Stormraven operates as a gunboat but can also shuttle units if they are in danger or need to grab an objective.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

Ok, so it looks like the best way to use blood Angels is "Run up and punch them in the face" Versatility is one of the reasons I picked space marines to run (and then looked at BA to further specialize) it's one of the reasons why I favour tactical marines.

I wouldn't mind fielding assault marines... I just need to find some...

I guess I should have stated previously, my HQ is a Dante mimic and my honour guard is hyped out with power weapons, jump packs and the chapter banner.

I completely forgot, I also have the sanguinor.

Since I didn't have any jump infantry besides my SG and HG I figured they'd be my elite striking force. Infernus pistols, melta bombs and power weapons to wreck the enemies while my dreadnaughts and tanks move in and lay heavy beat down. I enjoy plasma cannons myself, but missile launchers have versatility again. (I use missiles in my tac squads already)

So if I took my "elite group", backed them up with two assaults, have a tac and two devs is that too much infantry?


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

Bumping. It took a bit of time but I just did some extra reading between the codex and the rule book.

Stormraven Gunships can fire up to 4 weapons in one turn after a deep strike. Page 95 in the small rule book, all deep strike vehicles count as moving at cruising speed.
Page 70. All skimmer/fast vehicles moving at cruising speed can fire one main weapon and all defensive weapons (strength 4 or less) hurricane bolters are 3 twin-linked boltguns (strength4 AP5), giving 6 (at 13-24 inches) and 12 (at 0-12 inches) shots respectively for both hurricane bolters. Power of the Machine Spirit grants an additional weapon to fire. This means if I have the following outfits:
twin-linked multi-melta
2 hurricane bolter side sponsons
twin linked plasma cannon I can give enough covering fire for at least one turn while deep striking a CC squad. or CC squad + dreadnaught.

I'm still a little iffy on the assault rules. I know that you can't assault after deep striking, even in the Stormraven, but heroic intervention may allow this...

What would be the best units to put into a stormraven in this kind of a situation?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Heroic Intervention can't assault in that situation.

You can indeed fire all those weapons upon a successful Deep Strike - but you don't want to arrive that close - you scatter 2D6 remember, and have a large footprint.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> Heroic Intervention can't assault in that situation.
> 
> You can indeed fire all those weapons upon a successful Deep Strike - but you don't want to arrive that close - you scatter 2D6 remember, and have a large footprint.



I've heard people say deep striking a stormraven isn't a good idea at all, not because of the scatter, but because it's a big target. I've got a game this weekend where I'll have an opportunity to get up close and personal with the guard army I mentioned in the OP would deep striking a tactical squad close up be too big a risk? If so, what might I try instead? I can't out-range his army and his tanks wreck me before I get too close


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Well, remember you can move Flat Out and use that to generate a Cover Save, in addition to using PotMS to fire your Multi-Melta and slag one of his tanks before it shoots.

I can't remember exactly how the anti-Melta rule is worded, but it probably prevents Ordnance weapons working on you too - if so the only thing that has any real chance of shooting you down is a Vendetta or a HWS. A HWS can be eliminated by your Plasma, and if you're in MM range of a Vendetta, it should be spiralling to the ground before you.

That said - I wouldn't ever recommend a player use just one Stormraven in a list as it's a LOT harder to stop two than one.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> Well, remember you can move Flat Out and use that to generate a Cover Save, in addition to using PotMS to fire your Multi-Melta and slag one of his tanks before it shoots.
> 
> I can't remember exactly how the anti-Melta rule is worded, but it probably prevents Ordnance weapons working on you too - if so the only thing that has any real chance of shooting you down is a Vendetta or a HWS. A HWS can be eliminated by your Plasma, and if you're in MM range of a Vendetta, it should be spiralling to the ground before you.
> 
> That said - I wouldn't ever recommend a player use just one Stormraven in a list as it's a LOT harder to stop two than one.


I've heard that too. I only have one stormraven, however... The anti-melta rule is simply that melta weapons don't get an additional D6 in penetration
The stormraven has 12 armor all around, so it's of little consequence getting bombarded with ordinance, however I do lose my cover saves. It's the troops that suffer the biggest losses in such a situation.

My two biggest threats are his basilisk and Master of Ordinance. The man essentially gets 3 orbital bombardments each turn, plus an earth shaker.

The next biggest threat is his leman russ tanks squad, however despite it being filled with plasma cannons, it's less of a threat.


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## The_Hive_Emperor (Jun 10, 2010)

I love my BA army, I've used them with great success for 4 or 5 years now, so I had them in the days of the White Dwarf codex. I play against IG, Orks, and Chaos the most. This is how I run my army.

All jumpers. All of my infantry is either assault infantry or has a Jump Pack upgrade.

10 man assault squads with 2 meltas and a powerfist, with Sang priest attached to the squad. This allows the infantry to combat all forms of enemy units (vehicals, infantry, heavy infantry) and gives them furious charge and increased survivability without having to rely on Red Thirst.

Epistolary. This is in my army almost every time I field it, I like taking Blood Lance against IG parking lots because it hits multiple targets at once. Might of heroes and unleash rage are also great powers.

Mephiston. This is hotly debated, but I think he is a great use of points. Put him behind something, be it a vehical, or assault infantry, so he can get some kind of cover before he gets in to CC, because as soon as that happens, thing he attack will just die.

Baal Preds. These are great. The assault cannon can kill all forms of infantry and light tanks. Against IG scout them up in a group and target the heavy weapon teams, S6 vs T3 means no W2 for them and if they aren't in cover, everything you wound is dead, its also good for flanking Chimeras and other light tanks, cause that 10 armor is easily defeated by the assault cannon.

Furioso Dreads. Another one of our great exclusives. Blood Claws are the greatest invention ever. I've killed a whole squad of Chosen, before they get to attack. The frag cannon is also very fun. I havn't used it a lot, but I've used it to strike behind enemy lines first turn in order to kill particularly nasty enemy targets. And the Libby Dread has all the advantages of a normal Libby...in a DREADNAUGHT. Any pattern works well inside a Stormraven. And I like to have Dante with Sang Guard as an extra surprise inside the Raven as well.

If you take Sang Guard, always take the Chapter banner, there's no reason not to.

That's basically how I approach BA as for tactical marines, you said your transferring over from nilla marines. I don't know if your starting a second army or just plain changing your mind, but what you can do is take some of your tac marines, remove the bolters, add chainswords, bolt pistols, and Jump packs and turn them into Assault marines, that's how I made my 3rd full assault squad. It's fun conversion practice (I should be painting one of my melta conversions here soon and putting it on my project log) and adds some variety to your poses. 

Anyways, that was rather long, and I hope it helps. Happy Hunting!


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## Cerberus (Dec 18, 2008)

Okysho said:


> My two biggest threats are his basilisk and Master of Ordinance. The man essentially gets 3 orbital bombardments each turn, plus an earth shaker.


This might help a little next time you engage the guardsmen. MoO can only fire one shot per turn, and the max an army can take is two. If he is getting more than two shots from MoOs a turn he is probably traitor guard.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Plus, Basilisks have a minimum range, which is one of their huge weaknesses. Granted, not hard for Scatter to stay on target with your size...


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

The_Hive_Emperor said:


> SNIP


Ok so it looks like jump infantry really is the way to go. I'll just have to find some assault marines... Ebay is good for that.

I've actually been meaning to get my hands on a furioso. Lightning claws on a dreadnaught? Damn right! Librarian dreadnaught?! F*CKIN' EH!!

I personally already but the chapter banner with my honour guard, but since they'd be fighting together with the sanguinary guard they should be in range of each other (don't know how well this will work in practice)

My honour guard loadout is power weapons two stormshields, a chapter banner and an apothecary(priest) with a chapter champion.
My sanguinary guard is a basic loadout with the exception of an infernus pistol and a plasma pistol. (scraping points where I can)

The thing is with a 1000 point army, there's barely enough points for that and a tactical squad with minimum armament (Plasma gun or flamer and a missile launcher) The honour guard, sanguinary guard Chapter Master and tactical squad all make up 1000 points. in a 1500 or 2000 point army I'd have no problem, but I never realized how expensive everything is when they can get picked off so easily. 

As for my battle coming up in a couple days. I figured I'd jump or deep strike in my HQ, HG and SG into the thick of things while raining on some heavy support and bolter fire. I'd like to get a chance to try the stormraven strategy I mentioned above too, but I don't know how many points we're playing with...

As someone with limited jump infantry, what might a verteran blood angel player suggest in order to deal with an IG or even a space wolf army?


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

Cerberus said:


> This might help a little next time you engage the guardsmen. MoO can only fire one shot per turn, and the max an army can take is two. If he is getting more than two shots from MoOs a turn he is probably traitor guard.


Oops, didn't see page 2. Yeah I know it's not actually3 MoO shots, but it takes such big bites out of my units that it sure feels like it. (also feels like his turns last forever....)



TheKingElessar said:


> Plus, Basilisks have a minimum range, which is one of their huge weaknesses. Granted, not hard for Scatter to stay on target with your size...


Didn't know Basaliks had minimum ranges do Leman russ' get them as well? 

Also, while guardsmen might be squishy, there's usually 40-something of them (or at least it feels like it) They also have a voxcaster allowing them to get "Bring it down" and "First rank, fire! Second rank, fire!" they've mowed down my terminators before... not fun...


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

Ok, so I had a match with my friend. He played his guard army. Here's how we did, playing a 2900 point match. 

Casualties were pretty much even, I almost lost two full devastator squads and had a lot of luck on my side. I had to deepstrike my Stormraven with a tactical squad and a furioso at point black (rapid fire, bitches!!) to be able to hold out against his army.

His leman russ tank squad fired over my head (and off the table) and he forgot his basalisk model. Sheer dumb luck. My elite unites(Sanguinor, Dante, SG and HG) never made it to the other side on account of a deep strike behind my lines.

Next time I won't be so lucky. How might I adjust my tactics to compensate for "luck"?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

No, Russes have no minimum range.

First thing to say is the loose Troops guideline - roughly, you should have a Troops for every 500 points. Naturally, this varies, and having 10-man units or 5-man is a world of difference, but that's the first thing you should consider in a list. Since only Troops Score, if you have too many points invested in other slots, then you're going to hamper yourself, however cool those toys may be.

Secondly, dealing with IG is all about speed, and concentration.

By that, I don't mean you, I mean your forces. IG will always outnumber you, and have more guns. However, if your guys hit a small portion of their lines, there's no way for them to bring all of their weaponry to bear, and so you minimise their advantages.

Speed, of course, is obvious. 

Using the SG and HG in concert is smart, as they're fragile hard-hitting units - and it goes with the concentration of forces mentioned above.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> No, Russes have no minimum range.
> 
> First thing to say is the loose Troops guideline - roughly, you should have a Troops for every 500 points. Naturally, this varies, and having 10-man units or 5-man is a world of difference, but that's the first thing you should consider in a list. Since only Troops Score, if you have too many points invested in other slots, then you're going to hamper yourself, however cool those toys may be.
> 
> ...



I think I see what you mean. Devs aren't exactly troops... sorta, but not troop choices.

I've narrowed down to the four biggest threats in the army. The HQ command squad (astropath, a voxcaster which gives everything orders, master of the fleet, master of ordinance and something that gives him "feel no pain" rule), a leman russ squad of 2(those battle cannonrs are wreckers), a basilisk and an executioner leman russ. (with executioner cannon and two plasma cannon side sponsons.)

The problem is I can't concentrate my forces on a single major threat in his army. They almost all ignore cover and/or armor and being outgunned just makes it harder... Again, last match I got lucky because his leman russ tanks went off the table and I was able to magna grapple one before things turned worse and he'd forgotten his basilisk.

Would I be better off deep striking my honour guard and sanguinary guard in front of his tanks to take them out? Admittedly, it leaves very little for me to deploy on the table, but there's a better chance of getting up close and personal. It would have taken 3 turns for my SG and HG to make it to his line (a 48X48 inch board) and I never made it that close. Is deep striking 90% of my army the best way to get up close and personal?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Pretty much - but the issue with that of course is that the forces on the board are more likely to die before doing anything when they are fewer.

It's why the list's additions need to be dictated by the theme, rather than hodgepodge. 

You need to know how you want to approach the list - and the best way, imo, to do that, is to hunt out other players' BA lists and see what they take.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> Pretty much - but the issue with that of course is that the forces on the board are more likely to die before doing anything when they are fewer.
> 
> It's why the list's additions need to be dictated by the theme, rather than hodgepodge.
> 
> You need to know how you want to approach the list - and the best way, imo, to do that, is to hunt out other players' BA lists and see what they take.



Forgive me... I'm not familiar with the terminology. List additions?

Hypothetically could I deepstrike my entire army?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

The things you purchase...you said for instance looking on eBay for ASM. Lol.

Deep Striking the entire army is OFTEN stronger than merely DS'ing elements, though not always. When it comes to Blood Angels though, the Descent of Angels rule gives them a decided advantage over other armies' Jump Troops - especially since Vanguard Veterans are so much better, having a realistic chance to actually charge upon Deep Striking, and thus being able to tie up/destroy Fire Support elements such as Long Fangs.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> The things you purchase...you said for instance looking on eBay for ASM. Lol.
> 
> Deep Striking the entire army is OFTEN stronger than merely DS'ing elements, though not always. When it comes to Blood Angels though, the Descent of Angels rule gives them a decided advantage over other armies' Jump Troops - especially since Vanguard Veterans are so much better, having a realistic chance to actually charge upon Deep Striking, and thus being able to tie up/destroy Fire Support elements such as Long Fangs.


Ok I think I know what I'll be doing for my next match, deep striking most of my army. I've been equipping a drop-pod with a locator beacon and deathwind to help deepstriking my stormraven and wreak a little havoc on the guardsmen (ap 0 but hey it's a large blast) I haven't got any Vanguard, but theoretically if I had more assault troops, I'd be deepstriking most of those as well right? I know within 18 inches an assault squad can't fail (12 inch move, 6 inch assault) but it's still too little ground to cover when dealing with 72 inch tanks...
Out of tacts, devs a dread or a baal (since none can deepstrike) out of a 2000 point army with about 1500 of those points in reserve which would be worth deploying? The baal's speed is nice, but last match it was immobilized on the first turn. My long range dread I never took.

Also, If no reserves are on the field and I lose all my units on the table in an annihilation match do I automatically lose?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

No, although if you run out of time when still in Reserve they are counted as Destroyed.

If limited to that selection, likely I'd deploy nothing if there wasn't sufficent LOS blocking Cover to hide them completely.

More likely I'd Outflank the Baal - but I find them awfully overcosted (the Sponsons, most of all) and only own some to convert to blinged out 'proper' Predators (the AutoLas variety) so I can stop using other Chapters'.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> No, although if you run out of time when still in Reserve they are counted as Destroyed.
> 
> If limited to that selection, likely I'd deploy nothing if there wasn't sufficent LOS blocking Cover to hide them completely.
> 
> More likely I'd Outflank the Baal - but I find them awfully overcosted (the Sponsons, most of all) and only own some to convert to blinged out 'proper' Predators (the AutoLas variety) so I can stop using other Chapters'.



Yeah, that's all I've really got to work with, most of what I've mentioned can deep strike, and the stormraven can take 12 models plus a dreadnaught. 

Heavy weapons won't do me much good in reserves though, and I don't have any alternatives besides a long range dreanaught. I was also unaware that Baal predators could outflank. Is it part of the "scouts" rule or because it's fast attack?


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## The_Hive_Emperor (Jun 10, 2010)

I personally don't like Deep Striking. It leaves your boys open to one whole turn of shooting before they can do anything. I prefer to deploy my assault marines, the thing is I deploy a lot of marines. In that 2900 pt game you played, I would have had 3 or 4 10 man assault squads, Mephiston, an epistolary, and some armor, most likely some Baal preds, A vindicator and a Furioso or 2. As for the Sanguintor, I have mixed feelings about him, he has some really nice stats, like the 3+ invul, but for his points, being more 25 points expensive than Mephy, I don't take him. Strategy with Guard is exactly what TheKingElessar said, close quickly, and get into assault, and hope you finish the assault on your opponents turn. I haven't played a competent SW player yet but as a SW player I can tell you you want to kill the Long Fangs, one way that I think would be very effective is a Furioso in a drop pod with a frag cannon, drop him 1st turn and get a nice bunch of S6 rending shots in on them. Ruin Priests are actually not that dangerous when your a Blood Angel because Jaws can't be used on jump infantry. Sorry about the late reply hope it helps though


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Scouts rule.

No, your collection doesn't seem to have a lot in the way of ranged elements at all, so best to eschew a half-hearted effort and simply play a close-range game.


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## The_Hive_Emperor (Jun 10, 2010)

I just finished a game, and when I was building my list I remembered something you had said earlier in the thread. That in a 1000 point game you can barley fit a Tac squad (I am not taking that statement literally, just to be clear). An assault squad with 10 men, 2 metlas, and a PF costs 235 points, 2 squads cost 470 points, an Epistolary with jump pack costs 175 points. Sang priests w/ Jump pack 75 a piece, so 2 cost 150. The total, 795. that leaves you 205 extra points, i would add another Epistolary and then you have a 1000 pt list that is going to be very hard to stop


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Yes and no. One of my main issues with playing the game at so small a level is that themed lists like that become massively weaker.

While you do have Meltas to deal with vehicles (and to a lesser extent Kraks and PFs) you can still potentially get Tank Shocked and rolled as they chase you off the board 3D6" at a time.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> Yes and no. One of my main issues with playing the game at so small a level is that themed lists like that become massively weaker.
> 
> While you do have Meltas to deal with vehicles (and to a lesser extent Kraks and PFs) you can still potentially get Tank Shocked and rolled as they chase you off the board 3D6" at a time.



Oh man, I forgot about tank shock...

Had my second game this weekend. He scooped after I deep striked my Sanguinary guard and Sanguinor on him. First win, yay!

Interesting match if I do say so myself. 

I deployed two squads. A tac squad with a melta gun and missile launcher, and a dev squad with 4 las cannons. (2700 point army)
Reserves consisted of. Keno (Dante) with honour guard (power weaps, two storm shields, blood champ, chapter standard, sang novitiate, melta bombs) Sanguinor and SG (mostly default stuff), Stormraven with tac squad with flamer (no heavy weapon) and furioso, a terminator squad of 8 with cyclone and baal pred with all flamers.

Elessar, I appreciate you point out that scouts have "outflank", it was a big help.

Turn 1: Get blown to hell. Lose 2-3 tac marines and 2 dev marines (full squad of 10 on each)

Turn 2: Miracle of dice, I beat his master of the fleet and roll 2 sixes. Keno with HG deep strikes next to his tanks on the top left corner of the board, point blanking one with a single infernus pistol. Baal predator comes in on the right and incinerates 80% of a storm trooper squad (they don't break).
On his shooting phase, HQ and HG deflect about 60 las gun shots (first rank fire, second rank fire, plus rapid fire) in addition to various heavy weapons. Lose only two HG (go invul saves!) Tac squad taken out. 

Turn 3: Terminators come in. 16 storm bolter shots on his side of the field, deflects them all with the sturdier parts of his face. They all get obliterated on his shooting face. A waste of 350 points... Destroy a tank with heavy flamers and nova cannon.

Turn 4: Stormraven comes in. Tac marines take out 3 HW teams (1 squad), Stormraven fires into guard squad and eats some more infantry, baal predator does the same. Furioso magna grapples but only shakes executioner Leman Russ tank. I assault his command squad with HQ. His following shooting phase, he takes out the stormraven and immobilizes the dreadnaught after deepstriking a vendetta and firing a leman russ.

Turn 5: Deep strike Sanguinor and SG. He scoops.

Ok, so here's my new question to you guys. Despite a victory like that, I took some pretty heavy losses. A furioso (immobilized all it could really fire is it's storm bolter), a stormraven a full tac squad (the other was right behind it) and an entire squad of terminators. I guess it's hard to tell without seeing the actual board, but what might I have done differently?

His forces consisted of a leman russ tank squad of two in the top left, three heavy weapons teams along the back of his table edge each with two autoguns and a las cannon. Executioner Russ with Plas cannon side sponsons, Nova cannon tank with dozer blade and heavy flamer side sponsons, a command squad and two of whatever those sub command squads are called. (they all have voxcasters which can issue orders) three stormtrooper squads (one with commisar yarrick) and about 4 or 5 full units of guardsmen. 

The thing I'm most hung up about is my stormraven and terminators I didn't expect either to go down that easily and neither of them made it passed the turn they came in on. Both of them were deployed in the center of the board, but a bit closer to his edge. 
Those units are a lot of points and it's a huge loss (in total about 500-600 points, just those two) What would you guys have done?

Edit: Sorry for the wall of text. I tried to give as much info as I could.


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## Skari (Dec 20, 2011)

Nice report. Keep it up, loving the discussion.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Well, in the end...I recommend not changing anything, per se.

I think getting used to them dying will benefit your playing - you need to become accustomed to acceptable losses - everything that isn't a Troops choice can die, and it doesn't matter as long as it does its job.

Losing Terminators is fine if it keeps Tacticals alive long enough to Score.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> Well, in the end...I recommend not changing anything, per se.
> 
> I think getting used to them dying will benefit your playing - you need to become accustomed to acceptable losses - everything that isn't a Troops choice can die, and it doesn't matter as long as it does its job.
> 
> Losing Terminators is fine if it keeps Tacticals alive long enough to Score.


I have no problem with units dying, really. I'm not so hung up on the stormraven as much because it did a lot of damage before it took a battle cannon to the aft engines. I'm hung up on the terminators because I fired 16 shots into their command squad and (if I recall correctly) all wounds were deflected, then they were immediately wiped. 

In retrospect this isn't the first time I've had this happen to my terminators either... they've been gunned down by guardsmen, deep striked into a wall ("terrible accident!!") and now destroyed in one turn after doing... nothing. Maybe my terminator models are just bad luck?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

While I can't rule that out, it's illogical.

More likely they just don't fit the list, or perhaps they way they're being used. Try playing them differently, eg walking with a CML or two.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> While I can't rule that out, it's illogical.
> 
> More likely they just don't fit the list, or perhaps they way they're being used. Try playing them differently, eg walking with a CML or two.


The bad luck thing was a joke..

You're probably right, it's the way I'm using them. I'm usually fielding either a cyclone or an assault cannon with them in each deployment. I'll try running them across the field next game


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

Ok, now that I've gotten over my fear of the Imperial guard, I turn attention back to fighting other space marines.

I for one have never fought another blood angels army before, and the last time I fought space wolves it ended in a crushing defeat. Hive Emperor noted that Long Fangs should be taken out first, but Space Wolves are also famous for being close combat masters. Their codex was redone at the end of 09 or something like that, so I don't see any buffs coming soon.

Any tips? Deep-striking seems a lot less useful against them since I'd be losing an assault phase and I can't pierce their armor with bolters. I won't have to worry about artillery like I do with the guard. I have little experience playing against others with similar/equal stats to mine


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Well, they're about on par with yourselves in CC - and when you charge Furiously, you have the edge - especially with FnP too. You'll grind them down, saves or no saves.

Also, while Bolters don't ignore their saves, never underestimate the power of forcing tons of saves on things.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> Well, they're about on par with yourselves in CC - and when you charge Furiously, you have the edge - especially with FnP too. You'll grind them down, saves or no saves.
> 
> Also, while Bolters don't ignore their saves, never underestimate the power of forcing tons of saves on things.


I don't doubt the brutality of it... I'm sure my elite team of HG and SG (and their HQ units) would be able to handle what they take on, I'm worried about the rest. So using releasing a hellfire of bolter rounds is still ok, would assault marines fair better in combat against space wolves then tactical marines?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Yeah, absolutely - extra A makes them significantly better than Tacs at that - although they're overall largely equivalent.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> Yeah, absolutely - extra A makes them significantly better than Tacs at that - although they're overall largely equivalent.


According to my codex, regular Blood Angels Assault marines only have one attack, seargents have two attacks. Am I missing something?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

The two CCWs they have, that Tacticals don't.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> The two CCWs they have, that Tacticals don't.


oohhh right, bolt pistols. I forgot about that. Yeah, that's a huge advantage, I never realized....

One last question, concerning wolf lords. I can't customize my chapter master, but the wolf lord I've encountered has a frostbite blade and an additional CCW I think they get an initial 5 attacks, plus an extra, then it gets extra attacks for every model killed last assault phase. (I think it's some kind of wargear, I don't have a SW codex)

Any ideas on how to try and get past that? "Don't die" isn't a viable option, lol


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

It's a "Saga" which is a special rule upgrade. It only gains attacks for models it kills, but even so.

You get around it by shooting it, preferably with a Multi-Melta, Lascannon, Missile launcher etc. Something that makes him a smear on the battlefield.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> It's a "Saga" which is a special rule upgrade. It only gains attacks for models it kills, but even so.
> 
> You get around it by shooting it, preferably with a Multi-Melta, Lascannon, Missile launcher etc. Something that makes him a smear on the battlefield.


I guess that'd make it tougher if I've got mostly CC units... what list would you use against a space wolf army in a 2000 point game?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I'd use my standard BA against any opponent:
Libby [Sword, Shield, Infernus] x2
Priest [PW] x2
ASM [Melta, Razor w/ LasPlas, Dozer] x4
ASM [Melta, Razor w/ Flamers]
2 Speeders [MM/HF] x3
AutoLas x3

I'd basically try to eliminate Fangs asap, and use Speeders to hunt Grey Hunters transports, before using Flamers and Plasma to remove them from Objectives. Things like TWC arguably an issue, but I'd simply hope to force some wounds, let them charge a sacrificial unit, and counter with S5 so I did some damage. Libbies would fuck them up with S10 attacks.


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

Yup, as much as I'd hate to admit it, Space Wolves are significantly more efficient in combat than Blood Angels. Take a standard 10-man Assault Squad with typical wargear (double meltas, power weapon). A similarly armed Grey Hunter unit also at 10 men only kills .08 less Space Marines in a single round of combat, however they cost roughly 50 points less. I don't want to flood your thread with the plethora of reasons why they're better overall, but it is an uphill battle when we set-up across from the Space Wolves.

ANYWAYS, I made a post about this very subject (how to run Blood Angels) on my blog just a month or two ago. I think this new codex is pretty fantastic (I've been playing since 2nd Edition; I started in 1996), and I think there are a few things that the new codex does very well.

Here's what I posted:



Well first there's the obviousness point that Blood Angels' Rhino-chassis vehicles are Fast. Being able to move "flat-out" up to 18" with Rhinos, Razorbacks, Predators, Vindicators, and yes even Whirlwinds is huge. They can move up to 6" and fire everything they've got, or move up to 12" and fire one main weapon and all defensive weapons. Mobility is king in 5th Edition, especially mechanized-mobility, and Blood Angels have that in spades, especially with the Stormraven Gunship.

Next up we have Special Characters. Blood Angels have always had a couple of gems in their codexes like Dante and Mephiston, and in this book they've doubled the awesomeness. Dante, Mephiston, The Sanguinor, Tycho, and Astorath are some pretty awesome characters that do some pretty amazing things. Most of us know what they do by now so I won't bother listing it all out, but again I think currently they're the new versions of the older characters are better than they've ever been, and the new characters are amazing.

But finally, the real strength of the codex comes via re-rolls. There's a Psychic Power that the 100 pt Librarian can take called Unleash Rage that gives himself and the unit he's with Preferred Enemy. There's also an HQ Chaplain called a Reclusiarch (who obviously has Litanies of Hate), and they've moved the standard 100 pt Chaplain to Elites which allows you take three of them (and again, they all have Litanies of Hate). Finally, there's the Sanguinary Priest who is also in Elites, but can be taken in threes as a single Elites slot. They grant the unit they join (plus all Blood Angels units in 6") Furious Charge and Feel no Pain. Oh, and you can also get a mini-Sang Priest by taking an Honor Guard. He's called a Sanguinary Novitiate, but he still grants those buffs to any unit within 6" of them. Another interesting thing to have happen is The Sanguinor can grant +1 Attack to all Blood Angels units within 6" of him AND the Honor Guard's Company Banner grants their own unit +1 Attack, so that's an extra two attacks with Furious Charge (due to the Sanguinary Novitiate) not including any re-rolls from Librarians or Chaplains, coming from that Honor Guard. They're expensive which is their drawback, but for that many attacks with Power Weapons, Lightning Claws, Power Fists, or whatever else you want in that unit, they're totally worth it. Combine that with the power of re-rolls and you've got some fantastic options.

With that amount of re-rolling (Chaplains, Librarians, FnP, twin-linked weapons) it mitigates bad die rolls which I'm a huge fan of, and it generates a ton of extra hits and wounds. Depending on the unit the Chaplains and/or Librarians are with, it can go a long way to mopping up enemy units. Being able to roll your armor save and then a 4+ Feel no Pain roll basically adds 50% more survivability to a unit too.

We even have more ranged-weapon re-rolls than ever before as well. We've always had the Twin-Linked Assault Cannon on our Baal Predators, Land Speeder Tornadoes, and Land Raider Crusaders, but now we also have Twin-Linked Plasmaguns on our Razorbacks and a myriad of Twin-Linked weaponry on our brand new Stormraven Gunship. It's a lot, and when you put it all together it starts to show what really helps Blood Angels shine on the tabletop.

So, this time around, the gimmick seems to be all about re-rolling with Blood Angels and being extremely mobile with a majority of their vehicles (especially their HOT new Stormraven Gunship). The re-rolls help them have that combat punch, and the mobile vehicles keeps with the fluff as well, and is a nod to prior editions where entire lists were centered around Rhinos flooring it across the field to drop off very angry Marines.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

dbgoldberg323 said:


> SUPERSNIP


I couldn't help but give a laugh at the last line of your blog post there. That's exactly how I've been playing lately, except replace "Rhino" with "everything" and "floor it" with "deep strike" 

I also wound up doing the exact thing you mentioned by combining the Sanguinor with my honour guard (and some additional elites and HQ) The amount of heavy weapons they've managed to deflect thus far is admirable.

Back to the Wolves however, I know their assault marines are weaker, and while grey wolves might be cheaper, they can also carry the same weapons loadout AND have counterattack. I feel like I'd almost have to rely on the the red thirst to make it through a fight.


@TheKingElessar:
Interesting list. I like the idea of the hit-and-run sppeeders, and of course heavy weapons are always a bigger threat. Looks like having a balanced army is the best way to go in this case.


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

Okysho said:


> I couldn't help but give a laugh at the last line of your blog post there. That's exactly how I've been playing lately, except replace "Rhino" with "everything" and "floor it" with "deep strike"
> 
> I also wound up doing the exact thing you mentioned by combining the Sanguinor with my honour guard (and some additional elites and HQ) The amount of heavy weapons they've managed to deflect thus far is admirable.
> 
> Back to the Wolves however, I know their assault marines are weaker, and while grey wolves might be cheaper, they can also carry the same weapons loadout AND have counterattack. I feel like I'd almost have to rely on the the red thirst to make it through a fight.


When a 10-man Assault Marine unit charges a 10-man Grey Hunter unit, the Grey Hunter unit gets to roll for Counter-Attack. This happens every time they're charged, not once on a "D6 roll of 1 at the beginning of the game". They're awesome, they're cheap, and they're just better. Yes, with the Red Thirst active we get a HUGE advantage, but it's just not likely. Unfortunately we have to rely on a 50+ point Sanguinary Priest being within 6" to significantly boost the effectiveness of the squad. Also unfortunately, with a Sang Priest attached to that Assault Squad, the Grey Hunters could also have a Rhino and a Wolf Guard guy leading them (and with extra wargear).


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

And, without that Wolf Guard guy, they are just LD8, and so only have a 2/3 (ish) chance to pass Counter Attack.

Whereas, you can have a Sanguinary Priest or Sanguinary Novitiate granting not only the good part of Thirst, but a much better boost in FnP.


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

TheKingElessar said:


> And, without that Wolf Guard guy, they are just LD8, and so only have a 2/3 (ish) chance to pass Counter Attack.
> 
> Whereas, you can have a Sanguinary Priest or Sanguinary Novitiate granting not only the good part of Thirst, but a much better boost in FnP.


Actually they have a 3/4 (ish, 72.2%) chance to pass Counter Attack, which yeah is pretty much all the time.

And no, with a Sang Priest or Novitiate you're talking about 100 extra points the Grey Hunters can have, if we're keeping points the same, hence my whole point about Grey Hunters simply being better, hands down. :grin:


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## Skari (Dec 20, 2011)

Don't forget the banner... that Greyhunter banner is fantastic!


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

dbgoldberg323 said:


> When a 10-man Assault Marine unit charges a 10-man Grey Hunter unit, the Grey Hunter unit gets to roll for Counter-Attack. This happens every time they're charged, not once on a "D6 roll of 1 at the beginning of the game". They're awesome, they're cheap, and they're just better. Yes, with the Red Thirst active we get a HUGE advantage, but it's just not likely. Unfortunately we have to rely on a 50+ point Sanguinary Priest being within 6" to significantly boost the effectiveness of the squad. Also unfortunately, with a Sang Priest attached to that Assault Squad, the Grey Hunters could also have a Rhino and a Wolf Guard guy leading them (and with extra wargear).


They can directly assault from a rhino right? Even if I did have the red thirst that'd take away a lot of the advantage... hmm... I'm guessing they can all take power weapons right? (or at least their leader... they've all got special names....)FnP is useless against those... So if I charge, I most likely get destroyed, but if I'm charged, there's a sure fire chance I lose a squad...

Ok, so how do we counter this?


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## shufflingeveryday (Feb 5, 2012)

*Blood Angels*

From what I've seen where i play at my hobby store, them fast and aggressively! I actually just lost to an army of Blood Angels this weekend, mostly due to the fact that i clenched upon seeing them charge straight at me for an assault! Especially when painted, they are a very intimidating army!


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

Okysho said:


> They can directly assault from a rhino right? Even if I did have the red thirst that'd take away a lot of the advantage... hmm... I'm guessing they can all take power weapons right? (or at least their leader... they've all got special names....)FnP is useless against those... So if I charge, I most likely get destroyed, but if I'm charged, there's a sure fire chance I lose a squad...
> 
> Ok, so how do we counter this?


Negative. A Rhino is not an open-topped or "assault vehicle" thus models may not disembark after it moves AND assault. The vehicle must have remained stationary before they disembarked to be able to launch an assault.

Yes, even if a squad has the Red Thirst and they get charged (somehow) by Grey Hunters, it wouldn't matter except for the Fearless issue, as they migtht take No Retreat wounds.

No, they can't all have power weapons, just one of them (and they don't have a squad leader; just a separate unit called Wolf Guard that can be bought in groups of up to 10-men and can either make their own unit or split off to lead other units). If you charge with any special rules, you'll be on an even playing field with them typically. Don't expect to do in the second round what you did in the first though. And, if the Grey Hunters charge, you won't lose the squad necessarily, but you will certainly take some casualties.



shufflingeveryday said:


> From what I've seen where i play at my hobby store, them fast and aggressively! I actually just lost to an army of Blood Angels this weekend, mostly due to the fact that i clenched upon seeing them charge straight at me for an assault! Especially when painted, they are a very intimidating army!


Yup! I chose this army 16 years ago for this very reason. They are a striking-looking army and I think over the years they've gotten some really cool models added to their range. The Blood Angels do their best work in Assault, but remember, they are still Space Marines. You want to wipe up as much as you can in the shooting phase to soften targets up before you dive head-first into any combats. The fine line there is making sure what you shoot doesn't get scared and run off after taking 25% casualties.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

dbgoldberg323 said:


> Negative. A Rhino is not an open-topped or "assault vehicle" thus models may not disembark after it moves AND assault. The vehicle must have remained stationary before they disembarked to be able to launch an assault.
> 
> Yes, even if a squad has the Red Thirst and they get charged (somehow) by Grey Hunters, it wouldn't matter except for the Fearless issue, as they migtht take No Retreat wounds.
> 
> No, they can't all have power weapons, just one of them (and they don't have a squad leader; just a separate unit called Wolf Guard that can be bought in groups of up to 10-men and can either make their own unit or split off to lead other units). If you charge with any special rules, you'll be on an even playing field with them typically. Don't expect to do in the second round what you did in the first though. And, if the Grey Hunters charge, you won't lose the squad necessarily, but you will certainly take some casualties.



Surviving the initial counterattack is what gets me. If I can make it through a counterattack without taking any losses I'd say I've got an upper hand. Seargents all have power weapons, so making a couple kills isn't so bad.

I've got a new question, that just came up yesterday.

Dante vs. Logan Grimnar. Who'd win in a 1 on 1? How would you play dante to win?


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

Okysho said:


> Surviving the initial counterattack is what gets me. If I can make it through a counterattack without taking any losses I'd say I've got an upper hand. Seargents all have power weapons, so making a couple kills isn't so bad.
> 
> I've got a new question, that just came up yesterday.
> 
> Dante vs. Logan Grimnar. Who'd win in a 1 on 1? How would you play dante to win?


Logan, hands down. Dante's not really a combat monster like Logan is. Dante is a bit of a force multiplier and a gimmicky character. Logan is a beast in hand-to-hand and he offers some force-multiplier abilities of his own.

How would I play Dante to beat Logan? Stay away and survive; let the rest of your army shoot Logan.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Striking before the Wolves with more Strength should help - they won't be hitting back at full effectiveness, and so you should be able to weather the storm of fangs.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

dbgoldberg323 said:


> Logan, hands down. Dante's not really a combat monster like Logan is. Dante is a bit of a force multiplier and a gimmicky character. Logan is a beast in hand-to-hand and he offers some force-multiplier abilities of his own.
> 
> How would I play Dante to beat Logan? Stay away and survive; let the rest of your army shoot Logan.


I figured as much... but if you HAD to do a 1 on 1 with logan how would you run him down? Hit and run? The death mask gives a surprising amount of bonuses to Dante if used correctly. -1 WS, -1 W, -1 I and -1 attack for entire battle, plus regular death mask rules. Makes it easier to hit and kill Grimnar, plus limiting his counters. Yeah it doesn't decrease his hit potential, but he doesn't have a pistol AND has -1 attack and -1 wound? doesn't that even the odds a bit?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Okysho said:


> I figured as much... but if you HAD to do a 1 on 1 with logan how would you run him down? Hit and run?


You wouldn't, you'd lose in a single round probably. Dante doesn't beat Logan barring horrible dice on the Wolf's part.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> You wouldn't, you'd lose in a single round probably. Dante doesn't beat Logan barring horrible dice on the Wolf's part.


To be fair if you Death Mask him then Dante should win before he gets powerfisted to death, You really need a Priest with Dante though to give him furious charge and more chance of wounding him. 

Usually though it's a power fist to the face for Dante as the games designers decided that Logan should be an Eternal Warrior and not Dante....because they're pricks I assume.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Aramoro said:


> Usually though it's a power fist to the face for Dante as the games designers decided that Logan should be an Eternal Warrior and not Dante....because they're pricks I assume.


No, Dante has 4 wounds to Logan's 3...

Which to the people that make the game is a similar comparison. Sadly reality is different.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

Katie Drake said:


> No, Dante has 4 wounds to Logan's 3...
> 
> Which to the people that make the game is a similar comparison. Sadly reality is different.



2 if you count the death mask of sanguinius. I'm doing a mock battle right now and I'm a tad confused. If I want to hit and run, does Logan counterattack first? or do I run before he gets the chance?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Okysho said:


> 2 if you count the death mask of sanguinius. I'm doing a mock battle right now and I'm a tad confused. If I want to hit and run, does Logan counterattack first? or do I run before he gets the chance?


Hit and Run happens at the end of combat, after blows are struck.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

Katie Drake said:


> Hit and Run happens at the end of combat, after blows are struck.



ah ok, thanks. The rulebook wasn't quite clear on that.

So far, the results are: Logan Grimnar Wounds remaining: 1. Dante: wounds remaining: 3

placed 12 inches away from each other on an empty board, no terrain.
Dante strikes first (luck of the dice) blasts Grimnar in the face with the infernus pistol, but misses and dives in for an attack. The global death mask rules fail. 3 attacks get through and two are deflected. Grimnar counters and manages to land a blow with the frostbite blade.
Dante Powers up his jump pack and speeds away.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Okysho said:


> ah ok, thanks. The rulebook wasn't quite clear on that.
> 
> So far, the results are: Logan Grimnar Wounds remaining: 1. Dante: wounds remaining: 3
> 
> ...


Dante has a 50% chance of dying outright to being hit by Logan's weapon, since it can be used like a power fist meaning Logan would hit at S8, meaning it would cause Instant Death.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

Next turn:

Grimnar fires his stormbolter and assaults, Dante gets the jump on him, but ultimately the two are matched, Dante speeds off.

Dante closes in fires infernus pistol point blank. Grimnar deflects it with his amazing beard. Fierce combat ensues, ending in a stalemate. Dante dashes behind, Grimnar can't reach to assault.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

Katie Drake said:


> Dante has a 50% chance of dying outright to being hit by Logan's weapon, since it can be used like a power fist meaning Logan would hit at S8, meaning it would cause Instant Death.


Invulnerable save. 4+. The way it went down, three of 5 attacks hit. I allocate two of those to power fist and one to frostbite. Invuls on the power fist (a 5 and a 6) and the frostbite lands the wound (rolled a 2). As the defending player, I can allocate the wounds as I want


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

Grimnar fires stormbolter. Dante deflects it by sticking out his chest.

....Dante point blanks Grimnar in the face with infernus pistol.

...
...
...

Grimnar dies...


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

Ok I'm just as surprised as you might be, so if I might have done something wrong, please let me know. I'll give extra details if you need to. To sum up the "stalemates" all attacks either ended up misses or passing invul saves.

Grimnar died failing an invul save, landing a 3 when he needed a 4.

edit: Sorry for tripple post. I just posted it as I went along


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Okysho said:


> Invulnerable save. 4+. The way it went down, three of 5 attacks hit. I allocate two of those to power fist and one to frostbite. Invuls on the power fist (a 5 and a 6) and the frostbite lands the wound (rolled a 2). As the defending player, I can allocate the wounds as I want


You've misunderstood Wound Allocation - that is for multiple models in a unit.

Rather, what happens is that Grimnar decides ALL his Attacks are Fisticuffs, and so Dante goes splat.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> You've misunderstood Wound Allocation - that is for multiple models in a unit.
> 
> Rather, what happens is that Grimnar decides ALL his Attacks are Fisticuffs, and so Dante goes splat.


Ah, ok I guess I'll re-do that battle then...

Since I'm playing Grimnar, I'm deciding which wounds are flists and which are frosties... I guess that makes it a bit biased, I was experimenting with the model....


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Yeah, Grimnar obvs gets to choose, but since Dante can be insta-gibbed, there's no logic to normal Frost attacks.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> Yeah, Grimnar obvs gets to choose, but since Dante can be insta-gibbed, there's no logic to normal Frost attacks.



That's true, but I was testing the effects of the model...

I'm actually going to contest my invulnerable saves.

Since they count as different weapons, (wound on different rolls to be sure) I can still allocate those as "seperate" (so to speak) attacks and roll the invul saves for those attacks before I roll the invul saves for the frost blade. 

Now I just had a nap, so I've forgotten most of how that first round (where anything happened) went exactly, but that's how I'd deal with the wounds. Why would I not be able to do the saves that way?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Well, Logan's A have to be resolved in Initiative order, as usual. So you'd have to roll the saves in the reverse order. It's more that there's literally no point for Logan to even make a FB attack though, it's silly when he should be concentrating on actually killing his foe, he strikes after him anyway, may as well be at I1.

As for the allocating part, I think there's been some confusion - Logan chooses how his attacks are distributed, which weapon each is for each dice etc. Dante can't decide what way to take them once rolled.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> Well, Logan's A have to be resolved in Initiative order, as usual. So you'd have to roll the saves in the reverse order. It's more that there's literally no point for Logan to even make a FB attack though, it's silly when he should be concentrating on actually killing his foe, he strikes after him anyway, may as well be at I1.
> 
> As for the allocating part, I think there's been some confusion - Logan chooses how his attacks are distributed, which weapon each is for each dice etc. Dante can't decide what way to take them once rolled.


Why is that? I can see what you meant that using FB attacks are silly in this situation, but why can't I decide which attacks get saved or not?

Also, if you excuse the dante fanboyism, but he's a good 400 years older than grimnar, any explanations why he didn't get eternal warrior?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Honestly, I have no idea why it's worked out that way with EW, and the lack thereof.

As for not choosing, you must roll saves in I order they're inflicted.

EG:

Dante fights Logan, does a Wound, whatever - he just needs to not kill him. Then Logan's turn(s)... Logan, before Dante rolls, will have determined how many of his Attacks will be with each weapon. If he rolls one with FB and two PF (I forget how many he has, it's irrelevant here though) then he rolls to hit and then wound with the FB attack before resolving the others. Dante then rolls a save for this, if appropriate, before Logan's other Attacks are begun to resolve. Following the save attempt, Logan rolls to hit again and wound again if necessary. Dante by this point may already have lost a Wound, but either way, he must now roll saves for as many Wounds as have been inflicted on him by Logan's Power Fist.


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

TheKingElessar has it right on all accounts.



Okysho said:


> Why is that? I can see what you meant that using FB attacks are silly in this situation, but why can't I decide which attacks get saved or not?
> 
> Also, if you excuse the dante fanboyism, but he's a good 400 years older than grimnar, any explanations why he didn't get eternal warrior?


Well Okysho, without sounding too harsh, you really need to go back and read the rules (and I mean that sincerely because it really will help you overall). If Logan is hypothetically dealing you two S8 wounds and one S5 wound, you can't just roll "three saves" and choose where they go. The rules clearly point this out, along with 99% of your other questions. Again, I apologize if it seems like I'm being rude (I'm honestly not), but I really think you should sit down the next chance you get and have a good read-through of the 5th Edition rules (6th Ed isn't coming out for 6 months). TheKingElessar explained specifically how it worked, but you should also note that even if you're taking 2 S8 "ignore armor" wounds AND 1 S5 "ignore armor" wounds at the same initiative somehow, you cannot roll 3 saves and choose which successful ones go to which weapon wounds. Again, please read the rulebook; you'd be surprised how much other stuff you'll pick up too that you may or may not have been doing wrong.

As for the Dante not having Eternal Warrior, it's just a case of Matt Ward not thinking outside the codex when he wrote it. Eternal Warrior can be given to a staggering amount of HQ's and other things right now, so why Dante doesn't have it even though he's been alive for something like 1,500 years, is a Chapter Master, and has fought directly in countless battles confuses me too. We can't do anything but accept it and learn how to use the model accordingly.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I slightly disagree, in that the omission of EW must've been deliberate for some reason.

Possibly a future potential story arc GW are considering - remember, with Ka'Bantha back, things aren't looking too rosy for the Scions of Sanguinius right about now...


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

dbgoldberg323 said:


> TheKingElessar has it right on all accounts.
> 
> 
> Well Okysho, without sounding too harsh, you really need to go back and read the rules (and I mean that sincerely because it really will help you overall). If Logan is hypothetically dealing you two S8 wounds and one S5 wound, you can't just roll "three saves" and choose where they go. The rules clearly point this out, along with 99% of your other questions. Again, I apologize if it seems like I'm being rude (I'm honestly not), but I really think you should sit down the next chance you get and have a good read-through of the 5th Edition rules (6th Ed isn't coming out for 6 months). TheKingElessar explained specifically how it worked, but you should also note that even if you're taking 2 S8 "ignore armor" wounds AND 1 S5 "ignore armor" wounds at the same initiative somehow, you cannot roll 3 saves and choose which successful ones go to which weapon wounds. Again, please read the rulebook; you'd be surprised how much other stuff you'll pick up too that you may or may not have been doing wrong.
> ...



Aw, hell I know I need to learn the ropes more, that wasn't harsh. I can count the number of games I played on my fingers, and I've only been "officially" playing blood angels for about a week and a half. (and I've been collecting models since battle for maccrage)
I don't have a big rule book. I've been through the 5th ed "assault phase" section at least 3 times, it's just confusing because the rules are scattered all over the book like a used computer manual. My mind is also a bit jumbled right now on account of school-related bullshit(exams)

extra question: If grminar has a belt of russ AND terminator armor does he get two invul saves?

Ah, the infamous Matt Ward... I heard GW was going to start keeping an eye on him since he's been messing things up as of late. (Dante is 1100 years old, Grimnar 700)


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> I slightly disagree, in that the omission of EW must've been deliberate for some reason.
> 
> Possibly a future potential story arc GW are considering - remember, with Ka'Bantha back, things aren't looking too rosy for the Scions of Sanguinius right about now...



I agree and disagree. While this is true, it strengthens the point that Dante should have eternal warrior even more. Dante believes that within his lifetime he will have to single handedly defend the Emperor from an unspeakable evil of sorts. Though it doesn't specifically say "Dante" and could very well mean the Sanguinor, I believe that the possibility alone should give Dante the resolve to be at his peak at all times until he reaches his end.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Okysho said:


> extra question: If grminar has a belt of russ AND terminator armor does he get two invul saves?


Nope, you use the best of the two available Invul saves.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

Katie Drake said:


> Nope, you use the best of the two available Invul saves.


That's what I thought, just checking... My Imperial guard friend thought that you could only pick one save (between armor or invul) crazy right? His brothers used to play back in the 90s, maybe the rules were different in 2nd ed. lol


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Okysho said:


> That's what I thought, just checking... My Imperial guard friend thought that you could only pick one save (between armor or invul) crazy right? His brothers used to play back in the 90s, maybe the rules were different in 2nd ed. lol


Not crazy, that's correct.

You can only use one save against each wound and if you have two saves of the same "type" (either armor, invul or cover) you can only use one of them.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

It's a sad fact that no Eternal Warrior makes Characters over a certain points value basically unplayable. I think Dante with it would be pretty good, he's not great in combat but competent but the fact that any space marine with a Powerfist can kill him outright makes him really bad. You take him only is you have to because you want to play a Sanguinary Army and then you suicide him with his Melta squad.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

Katie Drake said:


> Not crazy, that's correct.
> 
> You can only use one save against each wound and if you have two saves of the same "type" (either armor, invul or cover) you can only use one of them.


Scuse any typos and leet. Im on my phone and forgot my laptop. 

Ive been debating this with my friend. While in most cases id be inclined to believe you, the 5th ed rule book under invul saves says you can take an invul save for any wound even failed armour

This contradicts the multiple save model rule, but is more specific so which is actually correct?


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

Okysho said:


> Scuse any typos and leet. Im on my phone and forgot my laptop.
> 
> Ive been debating this with my friend. While in most cases id be inclined to believe you, the 5th ed rule book under invul saves says you can take an invul save for any wound even failed armour
> 
> This contradicts the multiple save model rule, but is more specific so which is actually correct?


No, no it doesn't say that. Seriously dude, go back and read the rules. If you make an armor save, you do NOT get to make an invul save for that failed armor save. The only time in 40k that you get to make a secondary save is with abilities like Feel no Pain or Reanimation Protocols/Everliving.

This isn't Fantasy.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Okysho said:


> Scuse any typos and leet. Im on my phone and forgot my laptop.
> 
> Ive been debating this with my friend. While in most cases id be inclined to believe you, the 5th ed rule book under invul saves says you can take an invul save for any wound even failed armour
> 
> This contradicts the multiple save model rule, but is more specific so which is actually correct?


What it says is that you can always attempt an Invulnerable save, even if you wouldn't normally be allowed to attempt an armor save. So if you take a wound from a lascannon (AP2, effectively ignores all armor saves in the game) then you can still attempt an Invulnerable save.

There are a couple situations where you can't try Invulnerable saves either, like failing a Death or Glory! attempt, but on the whole Invuls are something that you can always rely on to give you a chance.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

lol I've never played WHFB didn't know you could take multiple saves there. Why can't we in 40k?

Ok, after scouring the rulebook, I can see where I've made a misinterpretation. "can be taken whenever a model suffers a wound" and "an invulnerable save can still be taken"
It's a bit wordy, but I can see how it falls into place with the other rules.

...
...
... this is gonna have some implications on my tactics... I relied on saves for my Honour Guard, this almost makes them useless. While they don't have artificer armour, I gave them storm shields (not including of the standard bearer, apothecary and blood champ) That makes them a whole lot squishier.

I don't suppose there's any way to field an army the way I like AND win at the same time is there?

This may seem like a complaint, but I really like the idea of having a kick-ass honour guard unit decked out with swords. Making them all kamikaze units isn't really my style...


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Okysho said:


> I don't suppose there's any way to field an army the way I like AND win at the same time is there?


It's the unfortunate reality of 40k. Often the coolest units aren't necessarily the best units for their points. You sort of need to decide what's more important - using cool units or winning games. Sad but true.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

Katie Drake said:


> It's the unfortunate reality of 40k. Often the coolest units aren't necessarily the best units for their points. You sort of need to decide what's more important - using cool units or winning games. Sad but true.



Welp, I've put too much time and money making my honour guard look badass (http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=100393&page=3 see here) to switch them around.

Under the same circumstances as the overall topic of this thread (ie beating the guard and Space Wolves (and marines in general) how would one use a decked out honour guard with power weapons, plasma pistols a chapter banner and stormshields (2, plus 1 combat shield)?

I'll re-cap if anyone forgets anything...

complaint for anyone who carse: Ugh, is this the result of the game having too much freedom? or not enough freedom?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Too much freedom, if anything...but I don't think that's really an issue.

As for Plasma Pistols - they're horribly overpriced. 

I would literally NEVER use them unless;
They drop to 5 points OR
They become Power Weapons.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> Too much freedom, if anything...but I don't think that's really an issue.
> 
> As for Plasma Pistols - they're horribly overpriced.
> 
> ...


The reason I ask, is because out of most of the blood angel players I've encountered now, their strategy tends to be "Assault rush with melta guns" and it doesn't really suit my style. I picked blood angels because they're tough(ish), fast and CC experts and figured that army suited my gameplay style. But it looks like that's the only way to win most of the time.

As for plasma pistols, you really think they're overpriced? I guess 15 pts is a bit much, though they cost the same as a power weapon.

Here's me not knowing the rules again, if you have a power weapon and a pistol does the pistol attack in close combat strike as a power weapon?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

All a pistol does in CC is provide an extra dice if combined with any other single-handed CCW. It does not make attacks, and so doesn't 'count as' anything. My point there was that buying a Plasma Pistol for 15 points should count as a PW in addition to the mediocre ranged mode it already has, while a PW itself would then be cheaper, say 10 points for instance.

For most armies, Meltaguns are necessary to reliably open tanks.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> All a pistol does in CC is provide an extra dice if combined with any other single-handed CCW. It does not make attacks, and so doesn't 'count as' anything. My point there was that buying a Plasma Pistol for 15 points should count as a PW in addition to the mediocre ranged mode it already has, while a PW itself would then be cheaper, say 10 points for instance.
> 
> For most armies, Meltaguns are necessary to reliably open tanks.


Yes, but you could close combat tanks just as well (powerfists mostly, but heck you can theoretically do it with a regular power weapon (glancing hit on S4 by rolling 6 on rear armor 10, then rolling another 6, but hey, it's still feasible) plus honour guard can take melta bombs as can most sergeants, plus krak grenades are practically standard issue. 

I personally refuse to change my honour guard for a multitude of reasons, so this will probably be my newest tactic change (melta bombs) and maybe switch those plasma pistols for infernus pistols. (gotta find some now... damned expensive models...)

Looking through the rules is says pistols count as a close combat weapon in the assault phase. (I now have a rulebook at my side at all times. lol)

Ok, so now that I know that I've been playing wrong my last two games. In what ways is Dante useful? he clearly can't take on any independent characters, despite his death mask trying to make him an independent killer. Since any bloke with a power fist can come up and insta-kill him (or plasma cannon, or las, cannon or a fly landing on a rock 30 ft away) How would you play Dante?

"I wouldn't" isn't a valid answer like last time with grimnar...


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

Okysho said:


> The reason I ask, is because out of most of the blood angel players I've encountered now, their strategy tends to be "Assault rush with melta guns" and it doesn't really suit my style. I picked blood angels because they're tough(ish), fast and CC experts and figured that army suited my gameplay style. But it looks like that's the only way to win most of the time.
> 
> As for plasma pistols, you really think they're overpriced? I guess 15 pts is a bit much, though they cost the same as a power weapon.
> 
> Here's me not knowing the rules again, if you have a power weapon and a pistol does the pistol attack in close combat strike as a power weapon?


Yes, the strategy is usually "assault rush" but we have a lot of good AT weaponry too. I'm confused, because you say your "style" is fast cc experts, yet you describe our view of them as an "assault rush" army. Doesn't that fit your description?

As for the Plasma Pistol, no, it is not a power weapon in close combat. The power weapon is a power weapon in close combat. All the pistol does in the assault phase is adds +1 attack to the wielder in CC because between the pistol and the power weapon, the model counts as wielding two cc weapons.

Okysho, at this point I'm beginning to think that you honestly haven't read the rulebook from cover to cover. The reason I'm pointing this out is that just by reading the tiny sections you deem appropriate, you're actually hurting yourself by not knowing what the previous or next sentences say. I've played over 500 games of 5th Edition, read the rulebook cover-to-cover roughly 20 times, and there's still stuff I don't remember or didn't know. There's honestly a lot of little details and that's why you're supposed to read the rulebook as opposed to only reading the relevant section as you get to it in your games. Again, I'm not trying to bully you or sound rude, but you do need to sit down and read the rules and the FAQs (found on GW under "Gaming" and then "Errata and FAQ articles"). The reason I'm harping on this so much is that there is a WHOLE game store near where I live that's full of people who have been playing 40k for 3-5 years (5th Edition) but none of them have read the rulebook. All of their rules "knowledge" comes from hearsay and statements like "I thought you could do...". Whenever I happen to go to that store and play a game (a rarity nowadays), I have to open the rulebook 3-4 times a game and point to a simple sentence that explains a rule in black-and-white (literally lol) to which they are surprised, confused, and in disbelief. It blows my mind that people hop into this game and try to play without reading the 100+ pages of rules associated with it. I can understand wanting to dive right in and start having fun, but as I've always told people: "I don't care if the rule causes me to lose a game. I'd rather know how to do something correctly than play it wrong and teach it wrong."

So, sorry for the wall of text, but if you take anything away from this, I just ask that next time you have a weekend off, sit down and go through the rulebook - all of it. You may not want to since 6th Edition is coming out in five months, but it will help you and your gaming group through the games you'll play until then.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Okysho said:


> Ok, so now that I know that I've been playing wrong my last two games. In what ways is Dante useful? he clearly can't take on any independent characters, despite his death mask trying to make him an independent killer. Since any bloke with a power fist can come up and insta-kill him (or plasma cannon, or las, cannon or a fly landing on a rock 30 ft away) How would you play Dante?


He's useful if you're looking to run Sanguinary Guard as Troops as well as for allowing one unit to Deep Strike with perfect accuracy. Dante in a unit of Honor Guard with 3 meltaguns or something is like an (extremely expensive) anti-tank scalpel. After that, you can just try to go after vulnerable infantry units like Devastators or something, assuming your opponent doesn't just blow the unit away in their turn (which they probably will unless you find a perfect spot out of line of sight. Annoying, but true). Other than that, there's not a lot that Dante can do because of his extreme vulnerability to S8+ attacks. He cuts through basic infantry well enough but his price tag is hefty enough that you'd really expect more from him. Oh well.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

dbgoldberg323 said:


> Yes, the strategy is usually "assault rush" but we have a lot of good AT weaponry too. I'm confused, because you say your "style" is fast cc experts, yet you describe our view of them as an "assault rush" army. Doesn't that fit your description?
> 
> As for the Plasma Pistol, no, it is not a power weapon in close combat. The power weapon is a power weapon in close combat. All the pistol does in the assault phase is adds +1 attack to the wielder in CC because between the pistol and the power weapon, the model counts as wielding two cc weapons.
> 
> ...


Lol I guess that makes it a little ambiguous doesn't it? Unless I'm misunderstanding how other people are playing their blood angels, what I'm seeing is "Librarian and assault marines with meltaguns, kill a tank then get shelled to death", while I'd rather play "Assault marine into close combat and survive" or "deep strike in the enemy's position and live through their next shooting phase so I can start wrecking them" while I always have to option of doing so, from what I've seen you've gotta play "sacrifice your assault marine tankhunters to win". In more layman's terms, assault jump into close combat with some finesse and still live.

I apologize if that sounds like whining... It probably is a little... I didn't mean for it to sound like that

Yeah I know pistols add +1 attack in the assault phase, but if the model is using a power weapon does it count as a power weapon attack? That is not in the rules under the heading "pistol weapons" nor is it under the heading "power weapons" (I double checked that)

Again, don't feel bad about slapping me on the wrist. You believe I haven't read the rulebook cover to cover... Probably because I haven't. It's true that's exactly how I've played my 6 games (or is it 7?) of warhammer, just opening the rulebook when I don't know how something works. You guys have really opened my eyes to how little I actually know about playing and I'll be going through that rulebook for sure. (I just didn't realize you had to memorize all documentation to play a game... then again isn't that how tabletop games usually go?)

I play mostly with one single friend, since where I am there are no games workshops or gaming clubs, but I'll probably have more exposure to it when 6th ed rolls around.

You know, I feel like I'd get a lot out of playing a game with each of you guys. :drinks:


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

Katie Drake said:


> He's useful if you're looking to run Sanguinary Guard as Troops as well as for allowing one unit to Deep Strike with perfect accuracy. Dante in a unit of Honor Guard with 3 meltaguns or something is like an (extremely expensive) anti-tank scalpel. After that, you can just try to go after vulnerable infantry units like Devastators or something, assuming your opponent doesn't just blow the unit away in their turn (which they probably will unless you find a perfect spot out of line of sight. Annoying, but true). Other than that, there's not a lot that Dante can do because of his extreme vulnerability to S8+ attacks. He cuts through basic infantry well enough but his price tag is hefty enough that you'd really expect more from him. Oh well.


Lest I turn this into a "Why doesn't Dante have EW?" thread, I'm guessing that the alternative CC IC killer would be the sanguinor right? 

Anyone else think it's like they took two aspects of Dante and split them in half to create two characters? Odd... I hear he was better in 4th ed (Dante).


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Okysho said:


> Lol I guess that makes it a little ambiguous doesn't it? Unless I'm misunderstanding how other people are playing their blood angels, what I'm seeing is "Librarian and assault marines with meltaguns, kill a tank then get shelled to death", while I'd rather play "Assault marine into close combat and survive" or "deep strike in the enemy's position and live through their next shooting phase so I can start wrecking them" while I always have to option of doing so, from what I've seen you've gotta play "sacrifice your assault marine tankhunters to win". In more layman's terms, assault jump into close combat with some finesse and still live.


You're actually pretty much bang on. It's a fault of the current edition that close combat is sort of... "meh" compared to shooting. Armies that rely more on assaulting than shooting to do damage pretty much suck, especially when they go up against a shooting army. Trying to play a super choppy BA army is really hard to do even with fire support like Devastators or Predators.

Against Guard, you're always going to get the hell shot out of you before you get into assault. You basically need to build an army that's resilient enough to survive their shooting, crack open their transports and then get at the juicy occupants. Doing this isn't really possible without an optimized list which unfortunately means that you need to spam multiple identical units with the same loadout and sacrifice many of the "cool" units that look awesome or have great fluff but are sort of lackluster for their points on the tabletop... which means you're pretty much playing a full blown tournament army at that point.



> I apologize if that sounds like whining... It probably is a little... I didn't mean for it to sound like that


If I'm honest, I'm annoyed with the state of affairs too. It's why I haven't played a game since last April.



> Yeah I know pistols add +1 attack in the assault phase, but if the model is using a power weapon does it count as a power weapon attack? That is not in the rules under the heading "pistol weapons" nor is it under the heading "power weapons" (I double checked that)


Yeah, you still use the power weapon rules for the extra attack. This is the same for all types of pistols or additional close combat weapons. So a model with a power weapon and a chainsword would make all of its attacks with the power weapon rules.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

Katie Drake said:


> You're actually pretty much bang on. It's a fault of the current edition that close combat is sort of... "meh" compared to shooting. Armies that rely more on assaulting than shooting to do damage pretty much suck, especially when they go up against a shooting army. Trying to play a super choppy BA army is really hard to do even with fire support like Devastators or Predators.
> 
> Against Guard, you're always going to get the hell shot out of you before you get into assault. You basically need to build an army that's resilient enough to survive their shooting, crack open their transports and then get at the juicy occupants. Doing this isn't really possible without an optimized list which unfortunately means that you need to spam multiple identical units with the same loadout and sacrifice many of the "cool" units that look awesome or have great fluff but are sort of lackluster for their points on the tabletop... which means you're pretty much playing a full blown tournament army at that point.
> 
> ...


-sigh- truth hurts... I guess that's what I get for asking the "best" way to play blood angels.

Funny you should mention torunament lists. It's one of the reasons I stopped playing Magic the Gathering. Besides the fact that my cards got outdated way too fast (money sucking jerks...) If I went up against anyone "hardcore" I'd have to build a boring deck around it. While I would still play to "win" in warhammer 40k (I hadn't technically won a game ever until two weeks ago) I still want to actually have fun at the same time. Part of the fun comes from the challenge, while part of it comes from doing things the way you (as in the player, or character if you role play I guess) would. Tell me I'm wrong (and mean it) provide me some proof of the contrary and my army is up for sale.


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

Okysho said:


> -sigh- truth hurts... I guess that's what I get for asking the "best" way to play blood angels.
> 
> Funny you should mention torunament lists. It's one of the reasons I stopped playing Magic the Gathering. Besides the fact that my cards got outdated way too fast (money sucking jerks...) If I went up against anyone "hardcore" I'd have to build a boring deck around it. While I would still play to "win" in warhammer 40k (I hadn't technically won a game ever until two weeks ago) I still want to actually have fun at the same time. Part of the fun comes from the challenge, while part of it comes from doing things the way you (as in the player, or character if you role play I guess) would. Tell me I'm wrong (and mean it) provide me some proof of the contrary and my army is up for sale.


Let me set the record straight here a second.

Blood Angels are fun AND competitive.

Sure, they're not the best army out right now and of course there are issues with the book (most books have issues), but none of that really matters. When I introduce new players to the 40k hobby, and they're in the process of picking an army, I tell them to look at which army they think looks cool, and which one's fluff they like the most. When they've decided on that, then I go into the specifics of how the army works, how 40k works, etc. The most important thing is that you enjoy the army you have. Rules change all the time, and even the codexes sometimes change how the game plays. Heck, even your player base can change that. I've played Blood Angels for 16 years now through the 2nd Edition Angels of Death dual-codex, the 3rd Edition pamphlet-dex, the 4th Edition PDF-dex, and now the 5th Edition codex. Over the years some of the rules changes have left our army lacking, but I honestly believe that right now our book/army has some of the coolest rules and models we've ever had.

If you want to play a competitive game, yes there's a lot to keep up on (not like a CCG/TCG like Magic though) like FAQ's, the core rules, different army builds, etc. It's a lot of work and it takes a lot of practice against all kinds of armies and lists to develop a decent understanding of what your army is capable of. If you want a causal/fun game, then build a list that you think is fluffy, or just looks really cool, and play either a regular game out of the core rulebook, or a special scenario from an expansion (Planet Strike, Apocalypse, Battle Missions, the extra missions from the hard-back core rulebook, etc) or play in a campaign (you can use Planet Strike, Planetary Empires, and/or mixes of different missions/books). There's really no limit to what you can play in 40k. The big misconception with this game is that all games are played at 2,000 points in a tournament environment with hardcore/serious players, and that couldn't be further from the truth. Yes, most casual games are played at 2,000 points (at least in the United States) but that's only because we often enjoy a larger game for whatever reason. Again though, that doesn't mean you can't play a 200 point Kill Team game from the Battle Missions book as your weekly game.

As for Blood Angels, there are _tons_ of options in the current codex. While not as strong as its Codex: Space Marines counterpart, you can still build generic armies with Tactical Marines, Bikes, Whirlwinds, Devastators, shooty Terminators, etc, or add in some of the more iconic Blood Angels units like Baal Predators, Death Company, and special characters.

The game is whatever you decide it to be. You just have to find opponents who are willing to chill out and play casual games too.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Okysho said:


> -sigh- truth hurts... I guess that's what I get for asking the "best" way to play blood angels.
> 
> Funny you should mention torunament lists. It's one of the reasons I stopped playing Magic the Gathering. Besides the fact that my cards got outdated way too fast (money sucking jerks...) If I went up against anyone "hardcore" I'd have to build a boring deck around it. While I would still play to "win" in warhammer 40k (I hadn't technically won a game ever until two weeks ago) I still want to actually have fun at the same time. Part of the fun comes from the challenge, while part of it comes from doing things the way you (as in the player, or character if you role play I guess) would. Tell me I'm wrong (and mean it) provide me some proof of the contrary and my army is up for sale.


You absolutely can play for the win and have a "fun" army unless you play against a super optimized tournament army in which case you _will_ get smashed, exactly like how you're mentioning with Magic.

One thing about 40k though is that it's generally very easy to find more casual players. As long as you opt not to play against people who are only interested in playing competitively you can definitely enjoy the hobby and the game just fine using "fun" lists.

So if you don't want to be super hardcore then decide not to be and as long as you avoid highly competitive types then you should be completely fine.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

You guys are right. I've put way to much time, effort and money into my army (and fluff, it's custom I've got a thread on it http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=105004) to let it go now.

maybe I'm still hung up over the fact that my commander can get 1shotted by any 40pt sergeant with a power fist. Like I said I only ever play with one person and we're constantly trying to out-do each other and I hadn't won a game against him ever. I won't quit until I get destroyed for another 6 games in a row.

Ok, lets steer this thread back on course. a little bit. I know I asked about Dante tactics before, so lets expand on that (I'm determined to have a badass chapter master if it kills me!!) Dante vs the Sanguinor, in your opinion which handles better overall on the field? The Sanguinor looks like he handles himself better, but has a lot of drawbacks and Dante's lack of EW (couldn't they at least have given him toughness 5? or some kind of immunity to st8 weapons?) makes him a bit too squishy.

Also, if I may. Custom characters. I'm not just talking "no-named Captian #12729" I'm talking about the whole sha-bang. If I wanted to say... make my own blood angels chapter master who had his own set of special rules and stats, how would I go about doing that? Since I'm playing with only one person, It probably won't be hard to get an "ok" on them, any tutorials on this? I know better than to overpower a character (especially in the numbers) where would you draw the line in ratio of rules/point cost? 

You know... if any of you even do custom characters.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Okysho said:


> Ok, lets steer this thread back on course. a little bit. I know I asked about Dante tactics before, so lets expand on that (I'm determined to have a badass chapter master if it kills me!!) Dante vs the Sanguinor, in your opinion which handles better overall on the field? The Sanguinor looks like he handles himself better, but has a lot of drawbacks and Dante's lack of EW (couldn't they at least have given him toughness 5? or some kind of immunity to st8 weapons?) makes him a bit too squishy.


The Sanguinor is tougher and harder hitting but since he doesn't have the Independent Character rule he can't join a unit which means that he can be picked out by enemy shooting regardless of his proximity to a friendlies. This means that while he has a 2+ armor save and 3+ Invul to protect him if the enemy is determined enough to not allow him to live then he probably won't reach combat unless you manage to get some line of sight blocking terrain between him and the enemy.



> Also, if I may. Custom characters. I'm not just talking "no-named Captian #12729" I'm talking about the whole sha-bang. If I wanted to say... make my own blood angels chapter master who had his own set of special rules and stats, how would I go about doing that? Since I'm playing with only one person, It probably won't be hard to get an "ok" on them, any tutorials on this? I know better than to overpower a character (especially in the numbers) where would you draw the line in ratio of rules/point cost?
> 
> You know... if any of you even do custom characters.


I haven't done a homebrewn character for ages, but it's possible to do them. There's a post giving you a general idea of how to start in the homebrew area of the rules section. Ultimately though you'll probably need to post your work in that section and ask for people's feedback to ensure that you end up with a balanced and fun character. From there it's as easy as asking permission.

Another option is to try using Mephiston. He's similar to the Sanguinor but even harder hitting and he's easier to protect due to his smaller size (he can easily get cover or even stay completely out of line of sight with the help of terrain or a vehicle).


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

Okysho said:


> You guys are right. I've put way to much time, effort and money into my army (and fluff, it's custom I've got a thread on it http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=105004) to let it go now.
> 
> maybe I'm still hung up over the fact that my commander can get 1shotted by any 40pt sergeant with a power fist. Like I said I only ever play with one person and we're constantly trying to out-do each other and I hadn't won a game against him ever. I won't quit until I get destroyed for another 6 games in a row.
> 
> ...


Well, honestly Dante and The Sanguinor sort of do opposite things ability-wise, so they're equally useful in their own way. I'm not sure one is better than the other right now. However, in combat, The Sanguinor wins hands-down. He's got a 3+ invulnerable save (because he WILL'S IT), more attacks, and Daemon Prince-like stats. He's a beast, and Dante would have troubles in combat where this guy would be mopping up. He also costs something like 50 points more, so there ya go.

I personally like The Sanguinor, but not being able to join a squad (he's not an Independent Character) means he can be singled out and shot at, which is exactly what most people will do. Don't try to give him cover because he's got a 3+ Invulnerable save. If you can hide him from your opponent's Line-Of-Sight for a few turns as he makes his way to where he needs to go, he'll be fine.

Alternatively, you can be really fluffy and Deep-Strike him just like in the fluff excerpts, where he'll come in when the battle looks most grim, and save the day. Using Descent of Angels, you can re-roll his reserve roll and he'll only scatter 1D6" (this also means your opponent only has one turn to shoot at him before he can assault something).

Also, if you're not talking about "generic captain #125793" then what ARE you talking about doing?


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

By "generic captain" I mean not putting together a captain from the codex, but build a completely new special character.

I'll check that thread in the homebrew section

So if I can afford it, using Dante and the Sanguinor in combination is best, while Dante deals with the regular infantry, the Sanguinor singles out the hard-hitting commanders. I guess in a 2k or 3k army that wouldn't be too bad, but under 2k might be hard to run both...
If you had to decide between the two, which would you pick? Goldberg, I know you said you prefer the sanguinor.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Okysho said:


> By "generic captain" I mean not putting together a captain from the codex, but build a completely new special character.
> 
> I'll check that thread in the homebrew section
> 
> ...


In a 3k point game I'd probably go with the Sagnuinor, as I've found that he really shines in really huge games (over 2500).


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

Katie Drake said:


> In a 3k point game I'd probably go with the Sagnuinor, as I've found that he really shines in really huge games (over 2500).


Dante is that much of a hindrance? or do you guys think he's just not worth the points? My last match I fielded both Dante and the sanguinor (sort of, Sanguinor came in on the last turn and did nothing) so he hasn't seen too much action yet. 
So strategy, is jump from cover to cover and engage in close combat?

I may (or may not) have another game this weekend so we'll see how that goes over and I'll give you guys the results


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## Durandal (Sep 18, 2011)

Okysho said:


> No assault marines, the sanuginary guard and honour guard are the only jump infantry.


Honor guard are really bad in dante lists tbh, the sanguinary guard should be packed with melta weapons, and for storm shields what you want are vanguard. 2 squads of 5 with 2 shields and a hammer on the sergeant is what I have been running to fairly good effect. 

You also want some assault marines. Cheaper bodies, and are just as good against things like guardsmen in hand to hand combat. 




Katie Drake said:


> The Sanguinor is tougher and harder hitting but since he doesn't have the Independent Character rule he can't join a unit which means that he can be picked out by enemy shooting regardless of his proximity to a friendlies. This means that while he has a 2+ armor save and 3+ Invul to protect him if the enemy is determined enough to not allow him to live then he probably won't reach combat unless you manage to get some line of sight blocking terrain between him and the enemy.
> 
> Another option is to try using Mephiston. He's similar to the Sanguinor but even harder hitting and he's easier to protect due to his smaller size (he can easily get cover or even stay completely out of line of sight with the help of terrain or a vehicle).


Sanguinor is garbage, there is no reason to ever use him. Mephiston on the other hand is very good. He is easy to hide and better in combat. I have ran him to good effect with my jumpers at 1850. Have him hid and hop scotch terrain, since only dark eldar and guard can reliably kill him at range, he can provide an excellent feint attack.



Okysho said:


> Dante is that much of a hindrance? or do you guys think he's just not worth the points? My last match I fielded both Dante and the sanguinor (sort of, Sanguinor came in on the last turn and did nothing) so he hasn't seen too much action yet.
> So strategy, is jump from cover to cover and engage in close combat?


Dante is a monster, I agree he has a weakness to power fists, and that gets annoying. But, if assaulting a squad with a fist, leave him with some sanguard and base one of them into the fist. You have the movement abilities to play all kinds of placement games in close combat. Generally, him and 2-3 sanguard if in range of a priest bubble will murder whatever they charge. He is also very good at taking out fire support units/non combat squads of anything. I dont want to say 'hes a finesse character', but I think he really has more required in using him well than any of the other chapter masters. 

More brief notes on Dante

1-Always remember his hate mask thing, and use it to nuke the nastiest close combat character in the opponents army. That -1 wound, WS, and attack (I dont remember exactly what it does) can really fuck with their big combat nasty. Alternatively, using it to snipe 2 wound psykers like rune priests and librarians is good, as anytime they perils after that they simply die. 

2-Hit and run. This is incredibly useful. With an average roll of 10.5, plus the 12" jump, and 6" charge, dante can cover 28.5 inches in one turn. Combined with his jump pack, and there is little safe from him and his buddies after they hit and run. I generally use this to start opening up additional threat zones away from my initial drop zone. 

3-Tactical precision. I just use this with sanguinary guard> Keep your eyes open for exposed rear armor on tanks, and spots that will provide cover from return fire.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Okysho said:


> Dante is that much of a hindrance? or do you guys think he's just not worth the points? My last match I fielded both Dante and the sanguinor (sort of, Sanguinor came in on the last turn and did nothing) so he hasn't seen too much action yet.
> So strategy, is jump from cover to cover and engage in close combat?


No, I don't actually think Dante is that bad. I'm just trying to guide you toward characters that will allow you to play your favoured style as much as possible. The Sanguinor is actually an extremely over expensive character for competitive play, but you're not playing competitively or in tournaments so you should use what will best allow you to do your thing.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

I guess it really does come down to personal preference again I like Dante's speed and (overall) power, but his weakness makes me shy away from it, conversely the sanguinor has what Dante lacks, at the cost of being more expensive and independant character.

I'll do a couple games using one than the other and see which I prefer. 

Durandal. I'll try that option and see what I think of it. Heroic intervention is a nice trait I've been wanting to try out. I'll need a 3rd place to stick another priest if I go with this list, but I'm sure I can think of one.


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## Durandal (Sep 18, 2011)

Okysho said:


> I guess it really does come down to personal preference again I like Dante's speed and (overall) power, but his weakness makes me shy away from it, conversely the sanguinor has what Dante lacks, at the cost of being more expensive and independant character.
> 
> I'll do a couple games using one than the other and see which I prefer.
> 
> Durandal. I'll try that option and see what I think of it. Heroic intervention is a nice trait I've been wanting to try out. I'll need a 3rd place to stick another priest if I go with this list, but I'm sure I can think of one.


heres my 2k list

HEADQUARTERS
Dante-225

ELITES
Sanguinary priest-75
-Jump pack

Sanguinary priest-80
-Jump pack, melta bombs

TROOPS
Sanguinary guard-240
-3 infernus pistols, 1 fist, 

Sanguinary guard-230
-2 infernus pistol, 1 power fist.

Sanguinary guard-230
-2 infernus pistol, 1 power fist.

10 assault marines-240
-Sergeant with thunder hammer, 2 melta guns

10 assault marines-240
-Sergeant with thunder hammer, 2 melta guns

FAST ATTACK
vanguard veterans-220
-2 storm shields, Sergeant with thunder hammer

vanguard veterans-220
-2 storm shields, Sergeant with thunder hammer

2000

There are quite a few reasons to use vanguard and assault marines in a sanguard army, a few of which I went over above. The biggest reason for me though was the painting aspect. I really like the appeal of dante and sanguard, but I think the army loses its appeal if its nothing BUT dante and sanguard. In this list they really pop as veterans. I also put the deathmasks on my vanguard vets, so what you have are 20 'normal' flesh tearers, 10 obvious veterans, and then 15 really elite guys. I think not only is this better in game terms, but it makes the army much better looking.


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

Durandal said:


> Honor guard are really bad in dante lists tbh


Actually, they're the crux of DoA lists... Take Dante, add an Honor Guard with Meltas/Power Weapons/Chapter Banner/Attached Blood Lance Librarian, and deep-strike them exactly where you want them to. If you look up competitive DoA lists online, they don't use Sanguinary Guard, they use Honor Guard and Vanguard. Sanguinary Guard are not competitive as they are weak and too expensive for what they do.



Durandal said:


> You also want some assault marines. Cheaper bodies, and are just as good against things like guardsmen in hand to hand combat.


Agreed, though they are much better than being relegated to fighting plain-old guardsman lol.



Durandal said:


> Sanguinor is garbage, there is no reason to ever use him.


As Katie Drake said, for competitive play you're right. However, he is a very solid combat beat-stick, and if you're having issues learning how to use him correctly then don't suggest to other people that he's useless. Caldera uses him brilliantly in a Lamenters Blood Angels list on BoLS. You should check him out.



Durandal said:


> Mephiston on the other hand is very good. He is easy to hide and better in combat. I have ran him to good effect with my jumpers at 1850. Have him hid and hop scotch terrain, since only dark eldar and guard can reliably kill him at range, he can provide an excellent feint attack.


Yes, Mephiston is a beast. He reliably kills three units (or more) before he accumulates enough wounds to eat it, and I've used him in probably 20 games against multiple different kinds of armies. However, he's just as unreliable in tournament play as people know how to deal with him quite easily. Let's just say he's not a fan of Plasma/Melta lol.



Durandal said:


> Dante is a monster, I agree he has a weakness to power fists, and that gets annoying. But, if assaulting a squad with a fist, leave him with some sanguard and base one of them into the fist. You have the movement abilities to play all kinds of placement games in close combat. Generally, him and 2-3 sanguard if in range of a priest bubble will murder whatever they charge. He is also very good at taking out fire support units/non combat squads of anything. I dont want to say 'hes a finesse character', but I think he really has more required in using him well than any of the other chapter masters.


I agree with pretty much everything you said here. Problem with Dante is that he's not amazing in hand-to-hand. You can't always hide him from a Power Fist/Thunder Hammer, etc., or a Melta/Lascannon/Ordinance round, etc. That T4 does indeed get highly annoying. Yes, people should learn to use Dante a bit better than sacrificing him to 99% of the opponent's weaponry the turn he deep-strikes, but at the same time as a 200+ point character he should not be running around (with a 200+ point unit attached) shooting transports/tanks all game. THAT is certainly a waste unless you're running DoA in which case he comprises your main AT unit. Again though, Sanguinary Guard are useless and shouldn't be included in most armies. Being T4 with ONLY a 2+ save for 40+ points per model makes them laughable at best and the point-sink unit that costs you the game at worst.



Durandal said:


> More brief notes on Dante
> 
> 1-Always remember his hate mask thing, and use it to nuke the nastiest close combat character in the opponents army. That -1 wound, WS, and attack (I dont remember exactly what it does) can really fuck with their big combat nasty. Alternatively, using it to snipe 2 wound psykers like rune priests and librarians is good, as anytime they perils after that they simply die.


Yup! This is by far one of the best de-buffs in the game. I love it!



Durandal said:


> 2-Hit and run. This is incredibly useful. With an average roll of 10.5, plus the 12" jump, and 6" charge, dante can cover 28.5 inches in one turn. Combined with his jump pack, and there is little safe from him and his buddies after they hit and run. I generally use this to start opening up additional threat zones away from my initial drop zone.


Yup again! Most people forget about this but at the same time, he's probably "murdered" what you assaulted so it doesn't get to happen all the time (especially if he's running around melta-pistoling tanks and transports).



Durandal said:


> 3-Tactical precision. I just use this with sanguinary guard> Keep your eyes open for exposed rear armor on tanks, and spots that will provide cover from return fire.


Yup, Dante with an attached Lance Librarian makes for some great shenanigans. Problem is again, Sang Guard are a joke, and you're not using hit-and-run or him and his squad's offensive capabilities if he's just hopping around crippling armor.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Right, finally caught up with the thread.

Mephy is the only SC I've used since the Codex came out, the others have too many weaknesses for my liking, and I think the Sanguinor is a bit silly fluff-wise (more so than Draigo, perhaps) so I refrain purposefully.

I think Mephy is the most competitive of the three too.


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

TheKingElessar said:


> Right, finally caught up with the thread.
> 
> Mephy is the only SC I've used since the Codex came out, the others have too many weaknesses for my liking, and I think the Sanguinor is a bit silly fluff-wise (more so than Draigo, perhaps) so I refrain purposefully.
> 
> I think Mephy is the most competitive of the three too.


I might be inclined to agree. Dante DoA lists have not won any tournaments IIRC, but obviously it's a solid list. Mephiston also hasn't seen 1st at any major event, but hey, he's often capable of more on the battlefield than Dante or The Sanguinor. Overall, all three are terrible IMO. They all do some cool things but have too many weaknesses to justify having in a real, competitive list. That's why generic Librarians and Chaplains see more play I think. On the flip-side, all three are a blast to play with and they do make the game more interesting!


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

"major events" aren't always competitive, which is part of the problem, especially in those events that don't leave a single undefeated player at the end, but several or even none.

I've had more competitive one-off games than some I've heard about at 'major events'.

Sadly.

I can't even begin to argue that generic Libbies aren't just plain better though, I run 2 myself for a reason. Lol. Reclusiarchs though? Nah.


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

TheKingElessar said:


> I can't even begin to argue that generic Libbies aren't just plain better though, I run 2 myself for a reason. Lol. Reclusiarchs though? Nah.


WHAAAT? Reclusiarch's are sick! 30 points for +1 W, +1 I, and +1 A? YES PLEASE! I've had Reclusiarchs do so much more than the elite Chaplains on a fairly regular basis. They're too cool IMO.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

Having never played a librarian myself, I need to ask, what's the deal with them? Everyone uses them. Are they just that powerful?

It's a persona gripe, but it's another big problem I find in fantasy. (I know 40k is sci-fi, but they're based off of WHFB) the mage characters are usually just so over powered that there's little reason to use anything else.


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

Okysho said:


> Having never played a librarian myself, I need to ask, what's the deal with them? Everyone uses them. Are they just that powerful?
> 
> It's a persona gripe, but it's another big problem I find in fantasy. (I know 40k is sci-fi, but they're based off of WHFB) the mage characters are usually just so over powered that there's little reason to use anything else.


40k is actually not based on Fantasy. There are obvious similarities but they are indeed two separate worlds/systems.

Librarians/Psykers in 40k aren't as capable of dominating a game as they are in Fantasy (they can't make whole 500+ point units disappear). However, what they do in 40k is usually either soften an enemy unit up to get shot at/charged, or they buff other units to be able to better shoot/charge a unit. For Blood Angels, our Librarians can either allow re-rolls of failed rolls to hit in combat ALWAYS, or give all units within 6" a 5+ cover save, or fire a 4D6" long line that is a S8 AP1 Lance weapon, or they can fly 12" (without a Jump Pack). There are more powers, so I suggest you look up what they can do. It really does add a lot at times, but it's not the end of the world when a Librarian gets a power off.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Libbies serve as a force multiplier - a boost to the army as a whole rather than simply killing things in combat like Dante/Sanguinor/Mephy/Seth/Astorath/Tycho/Captains do.

Reclusiarchs occupy a bizarre pseudo-multiplier position, because they provide a buff, but they only provide it to the unit they're in, and since they don't tote a heavy weapon, GW has created them to be a CC-based character, like the majority. As Katie said earlier, CC is inherently weaker than shooting in 5e 40k, and so a CC character is by definition inferior to one for whom CC isn't the be-all-and-end-all.

In conclusion - while a Reclusiarch is a MASSIVE amount better than a Chaplain, even Chappys being Elite in a BA army (probably their weakest slot) isn't enough to make them vaguely competitive, so a Reclusiarch doesn't solve that problem by simply being a bit better at the same job.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

dbgoldberg323 said:


> 40k is actually not based on Fantasy. There are obvious similarities but they are indeed two separate worlds/systems.
> 
> Librarians/Psykers in 40k aren't as capable of dominating a game as they are in Fantasy (they can't make whole 500+ point units disappear). However, what they do in 40k is usually either soften an enemy unit up to get shot at/charged, or they buff other units to be able to better shoot/charge a unit. For Blood Angels, our Librarians can either allow re-rolls of failed rolls to hit in combat ALWAYS, or give all units within 6" a 5+ cover save, or fire a 4D6" long line that is a S8 AP1 Lance weapon, or they can fly 12" (without a Jump Pack). There are more powers, so I suggest you look up what they can do. It really does add a lot at times, but it's not the end of the world when a Librarian gets a power off.


Not so much as ignorance, it's just that everyone seems to run them... always. Again looking at player lists, I see people always running librarians with their assault marines + meltaguns. 

While I'm sure I could probably find ways to fit a librarian into my list, I as just wondering why EVERYONE does it. 

Just fumbled through my codex and I admit the lance and wings look quite useful. I guess it depends how you'd run your librarian that will determine which powers you take...

Ok, now lets talk sanguinary guard. Durandal says terrible, others say "whatever" and around on the Bolter and Chainsword and dakka dakka, I've heard them praise the emperor over these guys. Tactics? Comments? I notice that not many of you guys run them. Is this because of a lack of invul save?

Also, Blood Champion. Worth it or not? Combat shields only offer 6+ invul very slim chances if you ask me


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

Okysho said:


> Not so much as ignorance, it's just that everyone seems to run them... always. Again looking at player lists, I see people always running librarians with their assault marines + meltaguns.
> 
> While I'm sure I could probably find ways to fit a librarian into my list, I as just wondering why EVERYONE does it.
> 
> ...


Yes, Sanguinary Guard are fucking terribad. 40+ points per model and you're not getting an invul save? Hi! Welcome to my plasmagun! In all seriousness, they lack the staying power to make them worth their points. They'll kill one thing IF they get to charge, but then they'll eat AP2 or better weaponry (or get charged by Init 5 models with Power Weapons) and cease to exist. For 40+ points per model they're WS4, S4, T4, I4, W1. Just. Terrible.

As for Blood Champions, the 15 point upgrade gives you a power weapon and +1 WS. I think he's worth it as he can also have a Meltagun, which means he'll end up with a Bolt Pistol, Meltagun, and Power Weapon. That means he'll have +1 Attack in combat AND can fire a Meltagun when needed (for 5/10 points). He also hits most things on a 3+ in combat, so yes, I think he's cool (he also adds a bit of potential for conversions). He's not a super competitive choice of course, but he's sweet otherwise.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

dbgoldberg323 said:


> Yes, Sanguinary Guard are fucking terribad. 40+ points per model and you're not getting an invul save? Hi! Welcome to my plasmagun! In all seriousness, they lack the staying power to make them worth their points. They'll kill one thing IF they get to charge, but then they'll eat AP2 or better weaponry (or get charged by Init 5 models with Power Weapons) and cease to exist. For 40+ points per model they're WS4, S4, T4, I4, W1. Just. Terrible.
> 
> As for Blood Champions, the 15 point upgrade gives you a power weapon and +1 WS. I think he's worth it as he can also have a Meltagun, which means he'll end up with a Bolt Pistol, Meltagun, and Power Weapon. That means he'll have +1 Attack in combat AND can fire a Meltagun when needed (for 5/10 points). He also hits most things on a 3+ in combat, so yes, I think he's cool (he also adds a bit of potential for conversions). He's not a super competitive choice of course, but he's sweet otherwise.


Hmm... maybe I'll leave the sanguinary guard out of my next entanglement... well that's about 250 points I can put to good use... Maybe I'll use the models as vanguard stand-ins for now....

Out of curiosity (It's not really clear in the codex) Could I upgrade(hypothetically) to a storm shield? The codex says "any honour guard" I'm assuming that means any model under the "honour guard" sub-heading (so all the models) This counts for the Sanguinary Apothecary too right?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Okysho said:


> Not so much as ignorance, it's just that everyone seems to run them... always. Again looking at player lists, I see people always running librarians with their assault marines + meltaguns.
> 
> While I'm sure I could probably find ways to fit a librarian into my list, I as just wondering why EVERYONE does it.


Because they're extremely cheap for the stat line and gear that they have in addition to two psychic powers. Shield, Lance and Unleash Rage are really good powers on a 100 point model. Librarians are so solid that you often don't need to upgrade them at all except with maybe a jump pack depending on the type of list that you're running.


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

Okysho said:


> Hmm... maybe I'll leave the sanguinary guard out of my next entanglement... well that's about 250 points I can put to good use... Maybe I'll use the models as vanguard stand-ins for now....
> 
> Out of curiosity (It's not really clear in the codex) Could I upgrade(hypothetically) to a storm shield? The codex says "any honour guard" I'm assuming that means any model under the "honour guard" sub-heading (so all the models) This counts for the Sanguinary Apothecary too right?


Nope, the Sanguinary Novitiate cannot take any wargear items. While the entry says something to the effect of "any honor guard member may take", that specifically refers to the actual "honor guard" members, and not the Novitiate.

The FAQ actually covers this IIRC.


And Katie is spot-on (as usual) with the Librarians.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

dbgoldberg323 said:


> Nope, the Sanguinary Novitiate cannot take any wargear items. While the entry says something to the effect of "any honor guard member may take", that specifically refers to the actual "honor guard" members, and not the Novitiate.
> 
> The FAQ actually covers this IIRC.
> 
> ...



Wow really? That's heavy... especially since regular priests can take standard wargear... how do you keep him alive then? or... useful?

I guess I have to remove that power weapon from his model.....


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

Okysho said:


> Wow really? That's heavy... especially since regular priests can take standard wargear... how do you keep him alive then? or... useful?
> 
> I guess I have to remove that power weapon from his model.....


You keep him alive by wiping everything out that you assault. Also, just don't allocate that many wounds to him (if any). He's worth an Honor Guard member or two to keep the Furious Charge and Feel no Pain benefits around, but you also have to look at the situation he's in. Would the unit be better off keeping the power weapons/flamers/meltas/lightning claws/banner/storm shields, or would they do better with that novitiate around? If you can answer that question when it's wound allocation time, you'll do alright. Also, keep track of what initiative things happen in so he doesn't die too early/late for him to buff the squad. Otherwise, he's just as good as a Sang Priest because instead of being WS5 and having the ability to join other units, he can't be singled out and he has the same FC/FnP rule as the Priest (all friendly units within 6").


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## Durandal (Sep 18, 2011)

dbgoldberg323 said:


> instead of being WS5 and having the ability to join other units, he can't be singled out and he has the same FC/FnP rule as the Priest (all friendly units within 6").


oh, guess i played him wrong the 3 games i used honor gaurd in.

and yeah, sanguard are terrible for the reasons mentioned. With that said, if you are competent youll do fine against most people at a regular game store with sanguard.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

dbgoldberg323 said:


> You keep him alive by wiping everything out that you assault. Also, just don't allocate that many wounds to him (if any). He's worth an Honor Guard member or two to keep the Furious Charge and Feel no Pain benefits around, but you also have to look at the situation he's in. Would the unit be better off keeping the power weapons/flamers/meltas/lightning claws/banner/storm shields, or would they do better with that novitiate around? If you can answer that question when it's wound allocation time, you'll do alright. Also, keep track of what initiative things happen in so he doesn't die too early/late for him to buff the squad. Otherwise, he's just as good as a Sang Priest because instead of being WS5 and having the ability to join other units, he can't be singled out and he has the same FC/FnP rule as the Priest (all friendly units within 6").


Yeah you got a point there, it just feels a little awkward trying to fit in a stock character with elite honour guard.. maybe I'm being silly... 

That being said, it doesn't say I can't in the codex, but can a model with chapter banner still take a storm shield?


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## dbgoldberg323 (Sep 10, 2010)

Durandal said:


> oh, guess i played him wrong the 3 games i used honor gaurd in.
> 
> and yeah, sanguard are terrible for the reasons mentioned. With that said, if you are competent youll do fine against most people at a regular game store with sanguard.


Exactly. They're REALLY cool, and a fun unit to use, but in a competitive environment they literally just fall to pieces. I bought 10 Sanguinary Guard and I plan on running units of them in Apocalypse (especially with Dante's super strike-force datasheet thingy).



Okysho said:


> Yeah you got a point there, it just feels a little awkward trying to fit in a stock character with elite honour guard.. maybe I'm being silly...
> 
> That being said, it doesn't say I can't in the codex, but can a model with chapter banner still take a storm shield?


Yup! Anybody except the Sang Nov can hold it. In fact, the unit construction rules hilariously don't say who has to hold it, it says "the squad may have" or something (sorry, no codex with me right this second), but really anyone can have it regardless of wargear except the Sanguinary Novitiate.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

dbgoldberg323 said:


> Nope, the Sanguinary Novitiate cannot take any wargear items. While the entry says something to the effect of "any honor guard member may take", that specifically refers to the actual "honor guard" members, and not the Novitiate.
> 
> The FAQ actually covers this IIRC.
> 
> ...


While I don't have my Codex to hand, I'm pretty sure the wording that prohibits Sang Novitiates carrying extra wargear also applies to Blood Champions. So it'd be +1WS OR a Meltagun.

I *may* be wrong.

As for Libbies, Shield, Sword, Lance, Fear - who needs Rage?


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> While I don't have my Codex to hand, I'm pretty sure the wording that prohibits Sang Novitiates carrying extra wargear also applies to Blood Champions. So it'd be +1WS OR a Meltagun.
> 
> I *may* be wrong.
> 
> As for Libbies, Shield, Sword, Lance, Fear - who needs Rage?



This is why I got confused over the novitiate bit. My codex is right here on my desk. It says:
"One honour guard can be upgraded to a Blood Champion with power weapon and combat shield"
then
"Any honour guard can replace his boltgun chainsword and/or polt pistol with:
...
...
-a meltagun, combi-flamer -melta or -plasma or hand flamer"

Now while the FAQ directly addresses the sang novitiate stating he CANNOT (though I personally think it's still silly) take any HG equipment, one might think that the same conditions would apply to the Blood Champion since the model is not called "honour guard"


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Yeah, thanks, I thought that was the wording. You're right, since 'Blood Champion' =/= 'Honour Guard' then he cannot. I never even consider a Champ, personally. Maybe if he had 2W.


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## Okysho (Oct 19, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> Yeah, thanks, I thought that was the wording. You're right, since 'Blood Champion' =/= 'Honour Guard' then he cannot. I never even consider a Champ, personally. Maybe if he had 2W.


The thing about the combat shield, if you look in the description, it says it's designed so that the user can still have a free hand for a pistol or other CC weapon. Too bad it's not in the blood champion options...

Am I the only one who thought the FAQ wasn't thorough enough?


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## gridge (Feb 11, 2012)

I usually run them very assault oriented. This is the main reason I switched to BA from regular marines. I was trying to play a cc oriented vanilla force and it wasn't working too well. Tactical marines haven't made a single one of my lists...it's all about the jump packs. I love the mobility. Basically, my usual list will include 3 or more units of assault marines toting meltagun upgrades, assualt terms led by a reclusiarch in a land raider, death company in a rhino, and drop pods loaded with dreads (either librarian, DC or regular) dropping into the backfield. I do occasionally use Mephiston but not always...He's a beast if you can keep him alive (which usually isn't too hard). With this basic setup and a few variations here and there for flavor I've had a lot of success.


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