# Is Fulgrim still possessed?



## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

So, I don't know about you, but I hate that Fulgrim is now apparently "in control" of his own body again. It ruins the tragedy of his fall for me and I hate it. However, just been reading through 'Angel Exterminatus' and this line cropped up "Fulgrim took up a heroic pose, more like an actor pretending to _be_ him than himself". Now I haven't read 'Primarchs' but from what I gather the only real source that we have claiming that Fulgrim is no longer possessed is Fulgrim himself, because his captains were trying to exorcise the daemon from him and he basically says "no guys, it's me. That's the daemon trying to trick you to possess me again. I found a way to exorcise myself". This leads me to wonder whether perhaps Fulgrim had found a way to exorcise himself, but needed to get others to perform it and thus influenced his captains to try and perform the exorcism, but the daemon tricked them and they didn't go through with it because they believed that Fulgrim was back to being Fulgrim and not daemon-Fulgrim.

My question is this really; do we have and believe able account that would imply that Fulgrim is/was no longer possessed? I suppose I'd like to believe no so I can have my old tragic fall from grace story back.


----------



## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Is it less tragic if he has freed himself of the daemon, but remains a damned shadow of his former glory?


----------



## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Fulgrim should be left as being possessed. It works.


----------



## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

I like the fact that either way he's actually been that twisted by chaos, we're all hoping he's still possessed because he's such an absolute douche now :grin:


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Tawa said:


> Fulgrim should be left as being possessed. It works.


I agree.

I didn't like the change of direction introduced in _Reflection Crack'd_ and carried on in _Angel Exterminatus_. I loved the concept of a possessed Primarch at the helm of a Legion ignorant to their lord's plight. 

Another cock-up by Mcneill. :wink:


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

It was one of those cases where trying to throw in a "reveal", wherein something from the past is not as it appeared to be, just didn't work. I hold it right up there with the timeline debacle from _The Outcast Dead_.

Fulgrim kicking out the daemon only to _continue_ to act as a sadomasochistic epicurean of sorts that is plagued by outrageous arrogance takes away the impact of the climax of _Fulgrim_.


----------



## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

Reflection cracked and angel exterminatus -less good bits of perturabo- do not count for me in anyway, they are so bad I ignore them, and remember the better epic and tragic fall from grace storyline, some bl authors need a good kick in the arse!!!!!! Thus speaks Oldman, so let it be written, so let it be done!


----------



## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

I am not sure, but would be very interest if any of you chaps happen to find out. I would love to see a Fulgrim who could return to fight besides the Imperium once more. It could the the typical tragic Greek hero who is out to seek redemption; like another of McNiell's characters (Cough, Cough).


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Fulgrim would never be allowed back into the Imperium, even if we ignore the fact that he's a deamon prince, no matter how much of a epihany or change of loyalty he might have, the Imperium would never even consider allowing him back in or accepting him as an ally. Never.


----------



## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Oldman78 said:


> Reflection cracked and angel exterminatus -less good bits of perturabo- do not count for me in anyway, they are so bad I ignore them, and remember the better epic and tragic fall from grace storyline, some bl authors need a good kick in the arse!!!!!! Thus speaks Oldman, so let it be written, so let it be done!


So say we all. :so_happy:



As for coming home for tea and biscuits. Fulgrim can fuck right off!


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I agree.
> 
> I didn't like the change of direction introduced in _Reflection Crack'd_ and carried on in _Angel Exterminatus_. I loved the concept of a possessed Primarch at the helm of a Legion ignorant to their lord's plight.
> 
> Another cock-up by Mcneill. :wink:



I liked the concept of a legion of souless cyborgs bent on oblvion being led by Star Gods bent on gorging themselves on the life forces of sentient life in the universe. Now I've got shards of gods and robots that can learn to play nice as well as a lame storyline to change it. But we all learn to live with changes in status quo. As these changes keep rolling in, everyone will have things fucked up and changed. In the end, I don't believe the Black Library has any idea or notion of a consistent plan for the franchise. I think they literally just meet up and change things to attempt to keep things fresh instead of trying to develop established plot lines. That's why the Emperor went from the manifestation of 350k psykers killing themselves to the most powerful psyker known to man to a perpetual. Or why the Necrons went from a spiteful race of dying aliens who made a deal for vengeance to a galactic Empire. Or why the Old Ones went from a galactic Empire to a bunch of shaman hippies who posed no real threat to the Necrons other than a reason to unite through war. No Enslaver plague. Oh yeah, and why the characterization of the Emperor has been everything from benevolent father to sociopathic manipulator. There's no consistency in the stories anymore, so yeah. One of the most tragic and well written stories was Fulgrim. Why? The tragedy it represented. Now with these developments it makes reading that book a complete waste of time. Instead of being trapped inside his mind witnessing the destruction of his father's empire and his sons, he's a sociopath. Like every other follower of Slaaanesh. Very original.


----------



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

No not according to the fluff of the HH series, which has to be honest, IMO turned into a disaster and I stopped buying them long ago.

He should have stayed possessed, it was much, much more tragic and was very _Picture of Dorian Grey_ esque in the original Fulgrim.

Ironically in a thread I started long ago (because the EC and Slannesh are my favourite aspects of chaos) I highlighted that based on reading A-D-B's Night Lords series you could actually draw an idea that it was hypothetically possible of him freeing himself:

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=73165&page=11


Ironically when that change occurred it felt like it soured one of the best bits of fluff to come out of the HH series.

I mean, what is better than a Greater Daemon of Slaanesh inhabitting a Primarch's body, doing all kinds of crazy shit, retiring to a pleasure planet after the Horus Heresy and being elevated by Slannesh and mutating Fulgrims body into this:











Oh and all the while Fulgrim is trapped screaming, looking through his own eyes, unable to control his body all the fcked up shit this Daemon is getting up to in his name.

Sooo much better that way, and it makes him unique amongst Primarchs.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

My thoughts exactly. The true horror was his imprisionment in his own mind. But now he's just a run of the mill daemon prince of Slaanesh. Instead of a tragedy, now you've just got a complete douch bag that makes even Perturabo look sympathetic in comparison.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> I liked the concept of a legion of souless cyborgs bent on oblvion being led by Star Gods bent on gorging themselves on the life forces of sentient life in the universe. Now I've got shards of gods and robots that can learn to play nice as well as a lame storyline to change it. But we all learn to live with changes in status quo.


It's quite a different situation (not only because the central lore changes (eg. Necrons) are done at GW level, where as plot developments in novels are done at the discretion of the individual author and/or a cabal of authors like the 'Heresy Team'.) The new edition of Necron lore, I still maintain, actually changed little. 

And whilst I don't like the direction the Fulgrim plot went in, I'm not deluded enough to deem it implausible or absurd. I can, and have, accepted it I just don't like it.

I also think that the setting needs innovation and changing perceptions otherwise we'd still have the mainstream 80s lore which, let's be honest, was quite absurd in comparison to our current understanding of the setting.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I also think that the setting needs innovation and changing perceptions otherwise we'd still have the mainstream 80s lore which, let's be honest, was quite absurd in comparison to our current understanding of the setting.


Could you give examples of 80's lore that's remained in place? Can't think of any from the top of my head and I figure you'd have something completely different in mind.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Could you give examples of 80's lore that's remained in place? Can't think of any from the top of my head and I figure you'd have something completely different in mind.


Well, the very basis of 40k was conceived back then and has formed the basis of all the current lore. But that's not what I meant. I meant that we need innovation and change in this setting (such as the development of Necron lore) and have done over the years, otherwise the setting would still be as it was when it was first conceived.

I was directly responding to Deadeye's claim of inconsistency.


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> One of the most tragic and well written stories was Fulgrim. Why? The tragedy it represented. Now with these developments it makes reading that book a complete waste of time. Instead of being trapped inside his mind witnessing the destruction of his father's empire and his sons, he's a sociopath. Like every other follower of Slaaanesh. Very original.


This. One million times.

The whole Fulgrim going "lol I got bored of the daemon and un-possessed myself but I'm still gonna be a twisted, sociopathic dick" thing is one of the biggest fuck-ups in the HH series so far. Period.

Quite frankly, at the time, his fall at the end of _Fulgrim_ was one of the most dramatic, emotional "wow' moments of the series up until that point... now it has lost pretty much all of its meaning.


----------



## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Daemons are liars incarnate, Im pretty certain it just told the EC's what they wanted to hear. That their father was restored to them.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Then it's the author's responsibility to at least hint that this is the case.

I'm sorry, but if it is later "revealed" that Fulgrim was still possessed and that the daemon was just lying, then it will have been as successfully written as the "true" timing of Magnus sorcerous message in _The Outcast Dead._


----------



## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Phoebus said:


> Then it's the author's responsibility to at least hint that this is the case.
> 
> I'm sorry, but if it is later "revealed" that Fulgrim was still possessed and that the daemon was just lying, then it will have been as successfully written as the "true" timing of Magnus sorcerous message in _The Outcast Dead._


Aye, but Reflection Cracked certainly wasnt the premier story in that anthology.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Just another fuck up on Mcneills list if you ask me. As everyone has said, it was such a big 'wtf' moment of the Heresy series. It was a change that was huge, colossal and unthinkable, but utterly believable and didn't fuck up the current 40k lore or established lore at all. It was a rare master stroke from GM, a tragedy on a scale that puts it up there with Magnus and many of the others. And then he decides to do away with it......huh?

The worst problem for me is that as people have alluded to, Fulgrim doesn't change at all, one moment _Fulgrim_ is saying he realised what a terrible mistake he had made and screamed in vain at his brothers death. The next, he's still the same sadistic, depraved sociopath the deamon was, ready to murder his brothers, even those allied to him with not a care in the world.


----------



## Eleaxus (Aug 1, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> No not according to the fluff of the HH series, which has to be honest, IMO turned into a disaster and I stopped buying them long ago.
> 
> He should have stayed possessed, it was much, much more tragic and was very _Picture of Dorian Grey_ esque in the original Fulgrim.
> 
> ...


I agree for the most part, except for the part that you seem to insinuate that Fulgrim is NOT the pinnacle of perfection. Not the daemon of slaanesh from the laer blade but Fulgrim himself who then becomes tainted by it. Slaanesh favours only those who are not already corrupted and are still striving to achieve that perfection. That daemon would only hold Fulgrim back as he and HIS EC's make their merry way to Terra. That said, imo, the daemon was merely a test and an obstacle in Fulgrim's journey.

FULGRIM will become the prince of pleasure, not inhabited and taken over by some lowly daemon not on the same perfect scale of a primarch.

I believe Fulgrim's final tragedy lies further down the road yet still (HH), but his path as of now is far too inspiring to end with that simplicity (Such is the true way of the Dark Prince). You guys seem to think Fulgrim wasn't on this road in the first place, and like a drug addict who takes drugs it magically changes them. No, quite the opposite, they were already corrupt to begin with, which imo again makes sense Fulgrim is Fulgrim, the true avatar of perfection that really is was only being tarnished by that daemon after Fulgrim gained what he needed from it. He is mercurial in nature, such is the way of his character. He IS A primarch, and this will be what makes him unique (The only one truly deserving of the Dark Prince's favour)


You boys seem to want some lowly champion of slaanesh that desires to be corrupted because they know themselves they can go no further without a daemon possession, go find another backstory about some lowly EC or Slaaneshi follower that might appeal to you. Fulgrim is above such things.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> It's quite a different situation (not only because the central lore changes (eg. Necrons) are done at GW level, where as plot developments in novels are done at the discretion of the individual author and/or a cabal of authors like the 'Heresy Team'.) The new edition of Necron lore, I still maintain, actually changed little.
> 
> And whilst I don't like the direction the Fulgrim plot went in, I'm not deluded enough to deem it implausible or absurd. I can, and have, accepted it I just don't like it.
> 
> I also think that the setting needs innovation and changing perceptions otherwise we'd still have the mainstream 80s lore which, let's be honest, was quite absurd in comparison to our current understanding of the setting.


How's it different? Basically you don't enjoy the way Fulgrim has now been turned into a primarch forced to live in an eternal nightmare to basically just like every other chaos daemon prince. His reasons for turning didn't even sound legit after they tortured him. If you think about it, it's the original innovative story that you enjoyed and how captivating it was. That's basically my argument with the Necrons and the C'tan. You can agree or disagree. They are no longer unique or tragic.


----------



## Eleaxus (Aug 1, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> They are no longer unique or tragic.


Oh dear, no point in arguing this one.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Eleaxus said:


> Oh dear, no point in arguing this one.


Um, what?


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Eleaxus said:


> Oh dear, no point in arguing this one.


If you don't see the greater tragedy in a Primarch being possessed by a daemon and forced to watch all the horrific acts carried out with his body, unable to tell anyone or stop watching, all the while regretting your decision. Then I don't see the point in arguing either. It's not unique at all any ore, Fulgrims just another character to be corrupted and go all Slaaneshy on everyone,


----------



## Eleaxus (Aug 1, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> If you don't see the greater tragedy in a Primarch being possessed by a daemon and forced to watch all the horrific acts carried out with his body, unable to tell anyone or stop watching, all the while regretting your decision. Then I don't see the point in arguing either. It's not unique at all any ore, Fulgrims just another character to be corrupted and go all Slaaneshy on everyone,


Right... quite the opposite you baboon.


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Eleaxus said:


> Right... quite the opposite you baboon.


I'm not sure if your being this dense for comedy or its genuine but I'd look in the mirror before calling someone else a baboon.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Eleaxus said:


> Right... quite the opposite you baboon.


Calling me a baboon? Careful now

I suggest you become a little more civil and constructive regarding your discussion.​


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Eleaxus said:


> You boys seem to want some lowly champion of slaanesh that desires to be corrupted because they know themselves they can go no further without a daemon possession


lolwut? How is that in any way what any of us have said in this thread?

We're saying that a possessed Fulgrim, helplessly trapped in his own head, while watching as everything he tried to accomplish gets twisted and corrupted by the daemon controlling his body, is far more tragic (and quite frankly a far better and more unique storyline) than Fulgrim just becoming your run-of-the-mill, perverted, twisted, sociopathic Slaanesh DP. Because other than being a Primarch, what makes him in _any_ way unique to any other Slaanesh character now. Nothing, that's what. Quite frankly, the _only_ good bit I can draw out of it is that the events between Fulgrim and Perturabo in _Angel Exterminatus_ kind of sets the tone for Perturabo's own eventual fall and ascension to DP. And even that wasn't handled all that well.

And not only that, as AoB (the *Mod* you called a baboon for disagreeing with you) highlighted, the transition between remorseful Fulgrim, shattered by the death of Ferrus, to the twisted Slaaneshy dickhead, who'd sacrifice his own brothers in a heartbeat to achieve his own ends, was extremely poorly and awkwardly done. There wasn't even a real transition. It pretty much went from remorseful, devastated Fulgrim to dickhead same-as-every-other-Slaanesh-DP Fulgrim in the space of one short story.


----------



## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> The worst problem for me is that as people have alluded to, Fulgrim doesn't change at all, one moment _Fulgrim_ is saying he realised what a terrible mistake he had made and screamed in vain at his brothers death. The next, he's still the same sadistic, depraved sociopath the deamon was, ready to murder his brothers, even those allied to him with not a care in the world.


This is _exactly_ what bugged me about that mess.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> The worst problem for me is that as people have alluded to, Fulgrim doesn't change at all, one moment _Fulgrim_ is saying he realised what a terrible mistake he had made and screamed in vain at his brothers death. The next, he's still the same sadistic, depraved sociopath the deamon was, ready to murder his brothers, even those allied to him with not a care in the world.





Karthak said:


> This is _exactly_ what bugged me about that mess.


Me too. 

It also makes me fear for what Mcneill will do to Horus in _Vengeful Spirit_. :wacko:


----------



## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

I think we all agree that Fulgrim not being possessed is a screw up. It removes any sense of tragedy or originality from his story.

However, my question is on whose authority do we have it that Fulgrim is no longer possessed? Only Fulgrim himself, who would more likely say he wasn't possessed than Fulgrim himself. His actions are not different, it would torture the real Fulgrim to feel like he might escape this hell only to be plunged back into it and watch his only hope at freedom slip away and then be forced to kill another brother. So, since, other than 'Fulgrim's' word, what evidence do we have that he's not possessed?


----------



## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

To be honest the daemon (if it was in him) had no reason to reveal itself. The legion was already on the path to damnation. The torture was only turning him on from what I remember as it would most Slaaneshi worshipers. The Lord of Shadows had no reason to lie, it was Fulgrim. His legion recognized him and he admitted it to himself. Why he went from a repentant tragic figure to a sociopath who knows, but it was a bad move. I would have put this on the level of one of the tragic Game of Thrones storylines. However that's been lost and now he's just a vile creature no different from any other Slaaneshi daemon prince.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Deus Mortis said:


> I think we all agree that Fulgrim not being possessed is a screw up. It removes any sense of tragedy or originality from his story.
> 
> However, my question is on whose authority do we have it that Fulgrim is no longer possessed? Only Fulgrim himself, who would more likely say he wasn't possessed than Fulgrim himself. His actions are not different, it would torture the real Fulgrim to feel like he might escape this hell only to be plunged back into it and watch his only hope at freedom slip away and then be forced to kill another brother. So, since, other than 'Fulgrim's' word, what evidence do we have that he's not possessed?


Again, if that's the case then the onus is one of the author to offer some sort of hint or innuendo that all is not as it appears to be.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Again, if that's the case then the onus is one of the author to offer some sort of hint or innuendo that all is not as it appears to be.


Exactly, further to this, I would argue GM has made more of an effort to insist it really is Fulgrim then allude to any such doubts.


----------



## Eleaxus (Aug 1, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Me too.
> 
> It also makes me fear for what Mcneill will do to Horus in _Vengeful Spirit_. :wacko:


Oh you just can't be happy!


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Eleaxus said:


> Oh you just can't be happy!


I consider it a legitimate fear given Mcneill's recent track record (as everyone here seems to agree with).


----------



## Eleaxus (Aug 1, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I consider it a legitimate fear given Mcneill's recent track record (as everyone here seems to agree with).


What is the current perception you have of Horus and what do you think he will do that makes you say that regarding Horus?


----------



## Marauderlegion (Nov 27, 2013)

I have a hard time believing he's not still possessed. I haven't read Primarchs yet, but I had the Angel exterminatus audio book and Fulgrim just sounded full of shit. Like any other possessed asshole, thinking he still owns his decisions. Totally unconvincing. Not unlike "the exalted" in soul hunter.

it sounded like his lieutenants were sold because he kicked their asses, and I guess only the real Fulgrim could do that?


----------



## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I agree.
> 
> I didn't like the change of direction introduced in _Reflection Crack'd_ and carried on in _Angel Exterminatus_. I loved the concept of a possessed Primarch at the helm of a Legion ignorant to their lord's plight.
> 
> Another cock-up by Mcneill. :wink:


I also agree.

However his new situation reminds me of something I read at the end of the first Dragonlance book. At least in an evil kind of way.

_"Hope is the carrot dangled in front of a mule to encourage it to move forwards because it is too ignorant to know it can never get it"

"So we should not even try?!?!?"

"No, I say remove the carrot and walk forward of your own free will"._
Fulgrim has removed the carrot.


----------



## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

sorry, double post


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Eleaxus said:


> What is the current perception you have of Horus?


That is quite a broad question. He was the greatest Primarch, the leader of the Great Crusade and (perhaps) the finest military commander in the galaxy. He single-handedly murdered (arguably) the greatest loyal Primarch and all but killed the Emperor (the most powerful psyker ever) as well. The scale of his ambition was terrifying (as Erebus said: “The galaxy burns from his ambition, not because I arranged to have him cut by an envenomed blade.”)

Despite the above being true, I don't think such a perception has come across all that convincingly in the series thus far. Abnett's _Horus Rising_ did a good job, but I'm struggling to think of an author or novel which has portrayed him exceptionally since his fall to Chaos. Given, he hasn't took the centre spotlight for a long-while, but _Vengeful Spirit_ seems to be the next big chance... 



Eleaxus said:


> what do you think he will do that makes you say that regarding Horus?


I didn't like Mcneill's portrayal of Fulgrim (folllowing _Reflection Crack'd_) or Perturabo. His track record in the Heresy series since _A Thousand Sons_ has been shocking (and I think you'll find that a relatively common opinion around these parts). In all honesty, I wasn't fully convinced by his portrayal of Horus in _False Gods_ either (which wasn't helped by Counter's _Galaxy in Flames_). Thus I don't hold high expectations for the upcoming _Vengeful Spirit_.


----------



## gothik (May 29, 2010)

think i prefer the Fulgrim book more, it was more creepy to think that Fulgrim was unable to do anything whilst the Slanneshi deamon took hold and corrupted his once perfect legion. I am a fan of McNeil but i think he crapped out with the Fulgrim free thing. 

Fulgrim itself was one of the best books in the series, Fulgrims slow descent into everything sadistic that the EC stand for now, to suddenly turn it around seemed to do the entire premise an injustice. I liked the idea that whilst Fulgrim was on the inside looking out, unable to stop the changes being wrought to his body and his sons seemed almost tragic to the point of Shakespearean to me and it seemed to fit perfectly to the whole premise of Fulgrim and the Emperors Children background. 

To turn all that around just seemed a pointless waste to me.


----------



## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Fulgrim being free of the daemon again is, in a word, BOLLOCKS.

It's a complete fuckup on McNiell's part and, IMO, spoils the story behind Fulgrim.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> He was the greatest Primarch


What does "greatest" mean? Greatest at everything? I don't think so. I don't think Horus surpasses his brothers in their areas of specialty. 

However, Horus seems to be very well-rounded, well-liked, charismatic, and a "people" person (very strong social skills and leadership ability) 



> He single-handedly murdered (arguably) the greatest loyal Primarch and all but killed the Emperor (the most powerful psyker ever) as well.


...while empowered by all four Chaos gods, let's not forget that and the fact that Sanguinius was hurt from his recent clash with Ka'bandha and the Emperor was holding back. I believe Chaos Horus would've beaten Sanguinius in any condition, but angel boy might've put up a better fight if he hadn't just gone 12 rounds with the greatest of Khorne's Bloodthirsters at the time.

Of course, BL might retcon a lot of the above 



> I don't think such a perception has come across all that convincingly in the series thus far. Abnett's _Horus Rising_ did a good job, but I'm struggling to think of an author or novel which has portrayed him exceptionally since his fall to Chaos. Given, he hasn't took the centre spotlight for a long-while, but _Vengeful Spirit_ seems to be the next big chance...


It seems that most of Horus's power is attributable to Chaos. Horus, without Chaos, hasn't come across as exceptionally exceptional compared to some of his "brighter" brothers, Sanguinius in particular. Other than Sanguinius' flawed gene-seed, I don't see why Horus is supposedly a much better choice for Warmaster. 



> Mcneill
> ...
> Thus I don't hold high expectations for the upcoming _Vengeful Spirit_.


I couldn't get through Outcast Dead or any of his HH short stories. I don't think it's wise on BL's part to have McNeill handle such a critical novel in the series (which has Horus return as a main character)


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> What does "greatest" mean? Greatest at everything? I don't think so. I don't think Horus surpasses his brothers in their areas of speciality.


Black Legion IA: "...Horus, first and greatest of all the Primarchs..."

Codex: Space Wolves: "Horus was the most powerful of all the Primarchs."

Generic Horus Heresy prelude: "Chief amongst the Primarchs is Horus, called the glorious, the brightest star..."

A Thousand Sons: "Like squabbling brothers, each of the Primarchs vied for a place at their father's side, but only one was ever good enough to fight alongside the saviour of humanity: Horus."

The Lightning Tower: "Dorn knew that Horus was the greatest of them, which made him the gravest foe. Could any one of them hope to best Lupercal on the field of war?"

The First Heretic: "Horus, Warmaster of the Imperium, the brightest star and greatest of the Emperor's sons..."

Scars: "Horus Lupercal was the finest commander in the galaxy..."

You get the picture. The lore has always consistently stated that Horus was the "greatest" Primarch. As I've said before, the Heresy series hasn't effectively portrayed this, but (according to the lore) it has always been the case.



MontytheMighty said:


> It seems that most of Horus's power is attributable to Chaos.


What gives you that impression?



MontytheMighty said:


> Other than Sanguinius' flawed gene-seed, I don't see why Horus is supposedly a much better choice for Warmaster.


I believe that the Heresy series has done a good job of discrediting Sanguinius' potential capability for the role of Warmaster.


----------



## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Im curious to why you think Sanguinius was discredited as warmaster.

But yeah, Horus had a collosal ego from being the Emperor's only son for 30 years, found early in his life and growing up at his side in the early great crusade. And then watching his father dividing his time between more and more sons as they were found, and while he got more responsibilities, he never had the personal time with his father anymore. And when the Emperor went to terra and handed him the role of warmaster, but without revealing any of his plans, it fueled the seeds of resentment which chaos exploited.


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> You get the picture. The lore has always consistently stated that Horus was the "greatest" Primarch. As I've said before, the Heresy series hasn't effectively portrayed this, but (according to the lore) it has always been the case.


Again...what does "greatest" mean? Does it really mean best at everything? I don't see any evidence for that claim, and those quotes are all very vague



> What gives you that impression?


I'm talking about being able to challenge the Emperor, something a primarch would not be able to do without Chaos



> I believe that the Heresy series has done a good job of discrediting Sanguinius' potential capability for the role of Warmaster.


How? Sanguinius has self-doubt just like Horus. The only other thing I can think of is the secret geneseed curse. While his legionaries are subject to the Red Thirst, I'm not sure if Sanguinius himself is.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> Again...what does "greatest" mean? Does it really mean best at everything? I don't see any evidence for that claim, and those quotes are all very vague


I don't know what it means, the lore unambiguously states it as fact though. 



MontytheMighty said:


> I'm talking about being able to challenge the Emperor, something a primarch would not be able to do without Chaos


Maybe, maybe not.

_Codex: Imperialis_ and current 40k Rulebook: "... He [the Emperor] created twenty super-human creatures, twenty beings whose powers equalled, *and in some respects exceeded*, his own."



MontytheMighty said:


> How? Sanguinius has self-doubt just like Horus. The only other thing I can think of is the secret geneseed curse. While his legionaries are subject to the Red Thirst, I'm not sure if Sanguinius himself is.


Sanguinius was, to use Aeonid Thiel's words, "too ethereal". Too aloof and lacking in charisma. He didn't have the unique relationship with the Emperor that Horus did, nor the relationships with the all of the Primarchs that Horus did (bar Corax). I doubt that Sanguinius would have even accepted the mantle had it been offered him. I imagine his self-doubt would have been ten-fold what Horus's was. Also, when hypothetically looking at a situation where another Primarch was made Warmaster, you have to ask what position would it have put Horus in...

Also, as you acknowledged, there is also the major issue of Sanguinius' genetic curse, which apparently he did suffer from:

I found a quick example from _Codex: Blood Angels_: "...This was the first time the members of the Blood had ever seen him truly angry, for he felt his comrades' lives were in danger. *When the blood-rage overtook him*, Sanguinius was indeed terrible to behold - his mighty Primarch powers awoke to fullness and a nimbus of light played about his head."


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

There is a larger context that I think we should consider when talking about whether or not Horus was the greatest primarch all around, or in certain aspects of warfare...

... but that's kind of off-topic for the discussion, isn't it? I'd like to start a new topic on that. I hope you guys are interested enough to continue the discussion there.


----------

