# Phoenix Lords vs Primarchs?



## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

So these guys are legends and probably the most powerful eldar alive,but can they compete with primarchs? What are your thoughts?


----------



## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

No.



In Void Stalker Talos takes out Jain Zar. admittedly a suicide bomb attack, but still...


I see the phoenix lords as similar to chapter master prowess - But the primarchs would munch them.


Fulgrim killed an Avatar...


----------



## Josie (Jul 8, 2012)

All of them at the same time could probably take out one, maybe Lorgar, who was the weakest of the Primarchs strength wise.


----------



## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

He'd just psychic them to death.... there aren't any psychic phoenix lords.. (unfortunately - a phoenix farseer...lol)

In the last fulgrim book, (reflection crack'd) it gives an idea about how now marines fare against primarchs


----------



## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

PLs are immortal (in a sense of rebirth) however, the only Eldar to remain so.


----------



## seermaster (Feb 22, 2012)

pls munch chapter masters chapter masters are more like autarchs


----------



## CraftworldSurathin (Dec 18, 2011)

Phoenix Lords are more akin to Chapter Masters. So several (or all) of them at once could probably take down a Primarch, but a few of them would almost certainly die. Look at Battle of the Fang (the most recent BL book I've read so it's in my head). It took a Wolf Priest, a Rune Priest, two Wolf Lords, and a Venerable Dreadnought to even injure a Primarch significantly.


----------



## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Was thinking of named chapter masters, like Dante and Grimnar. Not only are they hard in the game, but they also have some of the finest plot armour known to man

I'd not taken into account that phoenix lords are almost completely immortal, so they've definately outlasted the primarchs but there's not a primarch I could think of that would go down to any single one of them


----------



## seermaster (Feb 22, 2012)

in game pl are well not great in fluff there awesome though it would be a close 1 flufwise but in game grimnar would take them dante not so much


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Phonix Lords are greater than Chapter Masters. I pit them above Chapter Masters and below Primarch.

As Stated Jain Zar was killed by Talos via Plot Device and even then she will come back. 

Primarchs been taken down a notch (tho not often) and most Primarchs are dead by the 40th Milinuem as a result of non awsome deaths. 

I say 3 Phoenix Lords could take a Primarch.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Gret79 said:


> I see the phoenix lords as similar to chapter master prowess - But the primarchs would munch them.


Maugan Ra held off a Hive Fleet tendril, or at least a large swarm from it, alone, as well as rescuing an entire Craftworld from the Eye of Terror, a region that is notoriously difficult to escape the clutches of. I think that's above even most Chapter Masters.



Josie said:


> All of them at the same time could probably take out one, maybe Lorgar, who was the weakest of the Primarchs strength wise.


Depends on the time period. He becomes a badass after the events of Aurelian.

Midnight


----------



## redmapa (Nov 9, 2011)

> Maugan Ra held off a Hive Fleet tendril


and then they cry at matt ward's ultramarines...

I think a very old PL could take a primarch out, they're not indestructible and the PL might be wiser then the primarch..


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Kaandras was felled by a SM dreadnought, only to be resurrected a few minutes later by a willing exarch sacrificing himself. (Path of the Warrior)

Unfortunately, Path does not portray an accurate indicator of Phoenix Lord power levels (despite supposedly including three), so it is difficult to say. If any lone PL could be considered on par with a primarch, I would rate Asurmen as the only viable contender. Beyond that it would probably be a case of needing two or three against one.


----------



## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Serpion5 said:


> I would rate Asurmen as the only viable contender. Beyond that it would probably be a case of needing two or three against one.


Asurmen was the first phoenix and trained at least two of the others (Jain Zar and Baharroth - I believe) so I think that's a good point. 

What about the fallen phoenix? would he fare any better?


----------



## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

its pretty obvious whos the better of the two, simply because one of them gets to be fielded in the game as they are good but normal, primarchs dont get models or on the board because they would be over powered.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Not necessarily. Karandras and Ahra are reported to have fought toe to toe for an extended peroid of time with no victor established. 

Also consider the rumour that the fallen Phoenix Ahra is in fact Drazhar. :dunno:


----------



## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Serpion5 said:


> Not necessarily. Karandras and Ahra are reported to have fought toe to toe for an extended peroid of time with no victor established.
> 
> Also consider the rumour that the fallen Phoenix Ahra is in fact Drazhar. :dunno:


When did Karandras and Ahra fight? I've completely missed that and would like to catch up


----------



## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

I think we also have to consider the context. Is this hand to hand or ranged? Is it just them, or their forces too? What environment are they fighting in?

I see the Phoenix Lords more like Living Saints, while the primarchs are on a whole different level of OP. Plus, Baharroth sucks


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Gret79 said:


> When did Karandras and Ahra fight? I've completely missed that and would like to catch up





spanner94ezekiel said:


> I think we also have to consider the context. Is this hand to hand or ranged? Is it just them, or their forces too? What environment are they fighting in?
> 
> I see the Phoenix Lords more like Living Saints, while the primarchs are on a whole different level of OP. Plus, Baharroth sucks


It is a single sentence entry on the timeline in the 5e rulebook. 



5e Rulebook Page 128 said:


> Arha and Karandras, opposed Phoenix Lords of the Striking Scorpions, duel for seventeen days amongst the shattered ruins of ancient Zandros.


So it's one on one and lasted more than I remembered. No victor is given, but a duel lasting this long would place them on equal footing really regardless of who eventually won (if indeed either actually did).


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Gret79 said:


> When did Karandras and Ahra fight? I've completely missed that and would like to catch up


Karandras fought Arhra for 17 straight days on Zandros and it was the last place he was seen. That's all there it to it really. 

Based on the fluff I see Phoenix Lords as occupying that space between Chapter Masters and Primarchs. They're an order of magnitude better than Chapter Masters but one less than Primarchs. One on one a Primarch would handle a Pheonix Lord fine but multiple ones would not make him happy in the slightest. Also if for some reason multiple Pheonix Lords were trying to kill someone so would the entire Eldar race as hey never team up really, it would be an extraordinary circumstance. 

It's probably worth noting that Avatars are not as good at fighting as Phoenix Lords, they're just super angry.


----------



## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Thanks guys


----------



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Rather than start a new thread I'll just post my question here, but Maugen-Ra defeated a Tyranid swarm on his own. If the general consensus here is that Primarchs are much more powerful, would a single Primarch be able to do the same? Because for some reason, I doubt that.


----------



## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Is there any information on how he did it?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Gret79 said:


> Is there any information on how he did it?


It is worth noting that he might not have, or at least not in the way we are led to believe.

After all, beings such as the Phoenix Lords are steeped in myth and legend, and are integral to the Eldar mythic cycles. It might be a similar case to Calgar's involvement in the Siege of Zalathras, where it was said that he held an entire Greenskin Waaagh at bay single-handedly; something which some denounce as mere propoganda.


----------



## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Nor do we know how big the swarm was. There's a difference between a ground based swarm, which is simply an army and a full hive fleet.

I think COTE has it right in that it's an exaggeration that has grown in the retelling. I recall a piece of fluff in which Maguan Ra was fighting a tyranid swarm. There were also a host of Dark Reapers however.


----------



## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Right, so Maugan-Ra defeated a tyranid swarm *somehow*.

Back on topic - I think a primarch could've managed that...


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Gret79 said:


> Right, so Maugan-Ra defeated a tyranid swarm *somehow*.
> 
> Back on topic - I think a primarch could've managed that...


The bit of fluff does say single handedly but who knows eh? I mean Eldar Pirates boarded a ship and made off with 5 Million Guardsmen and 200,000 Imperial Navy personnel. If a bunch of pirates can kidnap over 5 million people then Ra can beat up from Nids.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I just love that there was a ship that could hold 5.2 million individuals!...


----------



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Well the army of 'Nids that he defeated was part of Leviathan, so there has been no real time for this incident to have spread and become some mystic legend. 

And even if this is a "ground army" that still numbers in the hundreds of thousands in Tyranid terms.


----------



## DaiKaiju (Aug 8, 2012)

Gret79 said:


> I see the phoenix lords as similar to chapter master prowess - But the primarchs would munch them.
> 
> 
> Fulgrim killed an Avatar...




Everyone gets to kill an Avatar


----------



## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

Basically: Phoenix lords are weak enough to be given stats in the game. Primarchs - if they had rules, they would be so ridiculously op and expensive that it wouldnt be fair. However, Chapter masters. So. Rules wise, I think that yes, phoenix lords are better. Fluffwise, they are better than most (I prefer Dante to most of the PLs). Then again, there are only, what, 5? 6? Not really sure. Either way, they are immortal, all around better, and generally cooler (than Chapter Masters. Nor Primarchs)


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Stats for Angron were released. I don't think any Phoenix Lord can stand up to him, one-on-one, in terms of single combat... though each is nonetheless a very powerful individual.

Like others mentioned, I think a Phoenix Lord is more on par with a Chapter Master of the Adeptus Astartes in terms of power. Personally, I'm not sure how I feel about that. We're talking about beings that predate the Primarchs (though there is the obvious caveat of them disappearing for centuries and even millennia). Perhaps they shouldn't be a match for the Primarchs in terms of raw power (and that's a big perhaps, IMHO)... but it's definitely disappointing when Codex: Dark Eldar came out for the 5th Edition and every Archon is the match of a Phoenix Lord in terms of raw combat skill.

Honestly, once a new Codex comes out for the Craftworld Eldar, I hope the Phoenix Lords are removed, reserved for Apocalypse games, and given stats and costs fitting for beings of their caliber.


----------



## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Phoebus said:


> Honestly, once a new Codex comes out for the Craftworld Eldar, I hope the Phoenix Lords are removed, reserved for Apocalypse games, and given stats and costs fitting for beings of their caliber.


 
AAH! NO! that'll just leave us with Eldrad and then we'll all get moaned at forever...:cray:

An Archon has the same stats as the Autarch.

Phoenix Lords are a little better - Drazhar has the same stats - but he's rumoured to be Ahra, so that would make sense.


----------



## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I was talking about raw combat skill. Archons have the same WS, BS, Initiative, and number of attacks as a Phoenix Lord. Autarchs have lower values for the same statistics.

Beyond that, it goes without saying that other characters should be written to make up for my proposed absence of the Phoenix Lords.


----------



## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Phoebus said:


> I was talking about raw combat skill. Archons have the same WS, BS, Initiative, and number of attacks as a Phoenix Lord. Autarchs have lower values for the same statistics. *goes away, checks - I've no idea how many times I've read the DE codex and missed that - thanks, my planned allies are getting better :biggrin:
> 
> Beyond that, it goes without saying that other characters should be written to make up for my proposed absence of the Phoenix Lords.


Fair enough - more characters is good


----------

