# Chaos... Normal CSM VS Cult Troops



## MindFreaky (Jan 24, 2008)

I'm just curious about something, and thought I'd ask you guys about it.

Are the cult troops worth it in your opinion? From a quite a few forums I've deduced that "normal" CSM are a really good troop, some go so far as to say that they are the Best troop choice availabe to chaos but in the entire game?
Now I don't have enough experience to really be making conclusions like that but what I want to know is, if they're so good, why take the Cult Troops?(Who cost quite a bit more points)

Don't get me wrong, I can understand where each Cult troop might be better then a CSM, but from what I've read its usually a BIG maybe. Is that maybe really worth the points?

Looking forward to your responses. :biggrin:


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Cult troops are always better than their devotee counterparts. You don't pay nearly enough for some of their abilities... Plague Marines are downright impossible to kill (T4/5 and FNP), Berserkers hit most things on 3's with a high volume of attacks, noise marines can shoot up a storm and hit before most things in close combat; and Thousand Sons are excellent at chewing on Marines (but nothing else, particularly.) 

That being said, there's an important place for the devotee Chaos Space Marine squads in the army list. If you're not playing Death Guard, World Eaters, Emperor's Children, or Thousand Sons (or Black Legion, in which case a single unit of either Plague Marines, Berserkers, Noise Marines, or a single Sorcerer with the Mark of Tzeentch is appropriate) then you really ought not to take the Cult troops. That gives you the chance to field a unit which worships a specific god, but isn't favored in the way one of the Traitor Legions that have given themselves to a single god are.


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## MindFreaky (Jan 24, 2008)

Thanks, greatly appreciated :grin:

Quick question, from a fluff perspective could you run Cult Troops in a Word Bearer army. Surely each type of cult troop is fanatical in their Worship of their specific deity and fanaticism is something that just rings true to me with Word Bearers?

On the other hand, Word Bearers are supposed to worship Chaos as a pantheon, but does that mean they'd have a problem with those who worship a particular deity?

I'm really confused about this


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

They'd have no problem with any worshipper of Chaos in any way, shape, or form, but that doesn't mean they're above fighting against other followers of Chaos. The Word Bearers, specifically, are all Undivided-- part of Lorgar's teachings to his Legion emphasized the pantheon over individual worship. There probably are a handful of cultists, but they'd be the extreme minority-- there's a huge emphasis on Chaos Undivided in the Legion.


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## plug (Feb 22, 2008)

I find that 1k sons can soak up a huge amount of firepower due to there 4+ inv save and noise marines can lay down massive amounts of fire-power especally if the've all got sonic blasters and ones got a blastmaster. If they don't move you've got a s8 blast wpn and sonic blasters have got 3 dice each which is why my squads have lots of them


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Ordinary CSM make great units because they are pretty good at everything. Cult troops are extremely good at a particular thing.

In most cases the CSMs are giving you more toughness for your points, through having more guys, but do less damage than the same points worth of cult troops. Plague marines are kind of the opposite here, as they are tougher but less killy on a point to point comparison. However to get the killing potential out of cult troops they have to be in the right position against the right opponents, when basic CSMs work pretty much all the time.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Someguy has it. CSMs are very good units, but cult troops are great units...at their particular specialty.

As far as the fluff goes, there's twos ides to it. Oldschool players could argue that Word Bearers should be undivided only because they don;t think any one god should be favored.

However, if you included marks and cult units from every god then it would balance out as a whole.

You could also use 'counts as' just like how the old chaos dex said to count mutations as bionics for IW, you could count berserkers as frenzied fanatics, MoT could represent the blessing of all four chaos gods protecting the unit, etc.


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

Well, been a devoted Death Guard player i will say that imo cult troops are better if you know what to do with them. Ive seen many people take a unit of plague marines and charge them in to a unit of assault marines. There good yes and very tough to kill, but if your playing fluffly like i do its not a good idea to charge 7 marines into say 16.
i use mine to soak up alot of firepower and charge the vulnerable units, my terminators take the harder ones.

CSM troops are good though dont get me wrong i use to field a great army of DIY chaos and they did me well, i just prefered supporting one god and then took Death Guard.


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## Bogg (Mar 2, 2008)

Ive Painted my "Khorne Berserkers" very similat to my Word Bearer color Scheme, same with my 1k Sons, and i use em often in my armies. I got no problem explaining the fluff aro8und that :victory:

on the other hand, My plague Marines are still in the Blister BOx, i havnt come up with a clue to install them lol , who wants to hang around toilet facesuke:


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## Skip (Mar 7, 2008)

@Bogg
Hey, i have exact the same problem - how to install a unit of plague marines in my word bearer army. It has to fit to the Mechrite Red/Gold sheme but must have a Nurgle/plague style..

to the topic:
I played a long time undevided and used normal CSMs in squads of 10 with 2 meltaguns and Rhino. Now i wanted to play without any vehicles and i changed to cult troops. I think normal CSMs are the most versatile troop choice but they have to get a rhino to be effective. As long as you want to play without these damn fragile vehicles (next edition it's not really better..) it's better to use troops that can walk and shoot, NMs and TS come to mind k:


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## Estragon (Feb 25, 2008)

I like the idea of cult troops, but for me they 'have' to fit in. I mean, there's nothing in the rules that says you can't have a Tzeentch Prince leading bezerkers, plague marines and noise marines, but I'd just go "What?" if I ever came up against an army like that. I remember someone debating about a list like that and getting the response 'Ur opponent was cleerly a gr8 Chaos General and made the best army list eva. U just h8 gettin pwned!!!' [sic].
That may be true, but anyone with an ounce of love for the background and feel of chaos simply wouldn't do it. I sometimes play Plague Marines and Ksons together, but if I do, I have an 2 HQ choices, one with each mark. I don't see any problem with using cults, or a 'counts as' in an undivided army, as it's characterful for cults to attatch themselves to such forces.
The only marked cult troop I don't have a problem with are Raptors, as their nature is essentially mercenary anyway. Okay, thats the rant over! Oh, and Plague marines & plasma are _Fantastic_ against Tau...just thought I'd throw that in. :grin:


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## Bogg (Mar 2, 2008)

Thing is mate, regarding "Khorne Berzerkerz" ,that there is a thing called " Khorne Surgeon", he is the one that "lobotomizez" MArines, so that they only feel when they are in the thick of combat, there are plenty of Traitor chapters, who has a surgeon like this, Including the Word Bearers, they are sought after. 

So I feel that my Army has a "Surgeon", as for the 1k sons, and Noise marines, they can come along for "Prize" or as Hired in guns, with the promise of Artifacts or Knowledge..

Its just those fart guys, the plague, who really dont fit in FLuff wise =)


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

In terms of background the black legion include all cult troops.

The only guys I have trouble with are rubric 1k sons being outside of 1k son armies. Ahrimman didn't go around doing his rubric to guys outside his own chapter - who would let him - and why would the automata leave the chapter? They aren't exactly going to sign on as mercs.


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## Estragon (Feb 25, 2008)

Quote from the (new) chaos codex: "The sorcerers offer the services of their unliving warriors to those who promise them knowlege and magical power." In effect, it's not the marines you're dealing with, its a ksons sorcerer, who brings along his own retinue of Rubric Marines to the party. 
@ Bogg: Yeah, for legions like word bearers, that's fine!k: Undivided armies can effectively pick and choose, it's just the 'best of everything and damn the fluff' approach that ticks me off. Perhaps you could use a lord with the stats & points cost of Kharn to represent your Berzerker-Surgeon on the battlefield?


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I've always been a fan of counts as rules. If a choice is legal for your list and you feel it fits well, mechanically, then get creative with the fluff. Perhaps the plague marines aren;t oozing nurgle cultists but are dazed fanatics hopped up on sacred incense. They stroll slowly into battle mumbling hymns and chants, swinging censers full of toxic fapors. The smoke inures them to pain but slows their reaction time. If assaulted, the pall of toxic fragrance makes others slow their advance and lose fervor.

Poof. Plague Marines become Censer-Bearers.


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## Changer of Ways (Jan 3, 2008)

Speaking from a tactical point of view (and not to upset the diehard fluff players out there) I find that it is most efficient to take cult troops in order to fill the roles that they're good at, two units being the most I usually use. Normal CSM's fill in the anti-infantry and H2H roles just fine, and they aren't as ungodly expensive as the cult squads.
Cult units are very powerful, but the temptation to throw too many points into them is strong. One has to curb their points-vacuum in order to field a good-sized, well-balanced list. Taking more than one squad of the same type of cult is something that I try to avoid as well- no need for overkill.

On a positive note, at least the cult squads are Troops choices, so taking them only helps you fill your compulsory troops choice in case you don't want to use the generic CSM unit.

Most of chaos' long-range, anti-armor weaponry is holed up in the Heavy Support category, and one doesn't have to try hard to find close-combat ability in a CSM army. This leaves most of the anti-personnel firepower for your Troops selection to fill out. Berserkers are awesome (and I actually use a near-full squad in most of my army lists), but more-important are Plague Marines, Noise Marines and Chaos Space Marines.
Thousand Son's are great at killing MEQ models, but aren't neccessary.
CSM's are cheap and fill this role nicely.
Plague Marines can soak up sooooo much firepower.
Noise Marines can put out soooo much firepower and strike first in most combat situations against other MEQ models.

I'd suggest finding a balance that uses Noise Marines, Plague Marines, Chaos Space Marines or some combination thereof.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

You make some excellent points in favor of using CSM squads, Changer. And there is a big temptation to load up on culties

Plague Marines are also a good choice because they can field a small squad with a pair of special weapons, so next to noise marines and Sons., plague marines have the best firepower per model in small squads, and with FNP you've essentially got 12 wounds out of a 6 model squad (since FNP roll is 50/50), so fielding a small unit isn;t a big gamble.


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## Skip (Mar 7, 2008)

By now, i use all of the 4 cult troops. I see them as some kind of eldar aspect warriors. They are very specialized. To the next tournament i'll bring 2 squads of TS for anti MEQ and 2 squads of NM for anti horde and CC if i get charged. I think they work very well together k:


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