# Cornered



## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

Perhaps this belongs in 40K fluff, but it seems GW has written themselves into a corner. I am aware this is old news, but it is certainly new to me upon my return to the game. How can reporting that the Throne is failing bode well at all? You can't have the Emperor reborn, because that would take all the 'grim darkness' away. Yet, him dying certainly won't be good for the Imperium either - that we know of, anyway. And surely he can't just sit on a broken Throne and 'live' forever as well.

Thoughts?


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

Well, as long as time doesn't progress and the game is stuck in the current date the fact that its failing adds to the grimdark atmosphere while never needing an explanation since time wont move.


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## Unforgiven302 (Oct 20, 2008)

Yeah, it's there to add depth and spookiness to the grim-dark atmosphere. The human race is supposed to be on the verge of collapse and extinction according to the fluff, so what better way to add to the demise of the human race than to have its "guiding light" going dim.


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## Chumbalaya (May 17, 2010)

We're at the 11th hour in the 40k-verse. 11:59 to be precise. Everything that can go wrong has and we're about one step away from utter annihilation.

Very grimdark, and it has been like that for years now. It would be interesting to see if GW can get us out of it, but I think if they tried somebody would end up disappointed, so we just keep the status quo and make it even worse as time goes on without ever actually advancing the plot.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

With fantasy they just wound back the clock and pretended that the storm of chaos and nemisis crown campaigns never happened so I'm sure they could have a dallas shower moment and have the emporor just wake up and realise it was just a dream and horus really was his favoured son either that or go preheresy as the books have already raised intrerest.


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## hungryugolino (Sep 12, 2009)

That would probably fall under "fanbase splitters".


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## Loki1416 (Apr 20, 2010)

1. This is a "thread of fate" in the empyrean. This is just one glimpse of the possible future that the emperor is having. It's not actually what is happening, but some where on Terra is a young man, who in the future will be known as the emperor. He's sitting there, delving into the threads of fate, seeing where his decisions lead him. Like thinking ahead in a game of chess: "If I move that pawn there, this will/could happen, but then if I move the queen to there this will/could happen". 

2. (this is just for conversation purposes, as an idea of what "could" happen. It is not meant to offend anyone, I just chose it for the reference)The emperor will awaken and his faithfull will be reunited at his side to purge everything of the unclean. Sorta like Jesus returning in his second coming is supposed to be. 

Loki


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## Heaven (Mar 11, 2010)

I think the 2 missing legions will play a part.

Also the fact that only 3 loyal primarches are dead... the others all sleeping or lost or in a status field.

Rogal Dorn
Ferrus Mannus
Sanguinius 

these are the only ones confirmed dead from the loyal side.
Thats 6 Loyal Primarches and 7 Traitors not confirmed dead.

Could be a big plot ?


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Heaven said:


> I think the 2 missing legions will play a part.
> 
> Also the fact that only 3 loyal primarches are dead... the others all sleeping or lost or in a status field.
> 
> ...


And Horus, dont forget Horus!
Also Night Haunter is dead and Gueilliman is in stasis as good as dead so he dosn't count.
So thats actually 5 loyal and 6 Traitors that might return


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## Heaven (Mar 11, 2010)

Captain Stillios said:


> And Horus, dont forget Horus!
> Also Night Haunter is dead and Gueilliman is in stasis as good as dead so he dosn't count.
> So thats actually 5 loyal and 6 Traitors that might return


Horus Is Dead ?...

Konrad Curze Is dead yeah .... but hes a traitor.

Rumours are Gueilliman is healing.... so he does count .

Lion El'Jonson
Jaghatai Khan
Leman Russ
Roboute Guilliman
Vulkan
Corax

So theres your 6 Loyals.



Fulgrim
Perturabo
Angron
Mortarion
Magnus the Red
Lorgar
Alpharius Omegon

And your 7 Traitors


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## countchocula86 (Sep 1, 2008)

Honestly I prefer to think that all the Primarchs are dead. Those that were "lost" have passed on. And those in stasis are just that; in stasis never to be heard from again.
All the stories and things function perfectly as the mythologies of the various legions. And without the Primarchs, theres room for other characters to rise up.


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## Heaven (Mar 11, 2010)

countchocula86 said:


> Honestly I prefer to think that all the Primarchs are dead. Those that were "lost" have passed on. And those in stasis are just that; in stasis never to be heard from again.
> All the stories and things function perfectly as the mythologies of the various legions. And without the Primarchs, theres room for other characters to rise up.



I can see your point , But "Lion El'Jonson" is known to be alive ?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Heaven said:


> Horus Is Dead....?
> 
> Rumours are Gueilliman is healing.... so he does count .


#1 The emperor obliterated his soul.

#2 Only pilgrims and zealous fools say he is healing. The Ultramarines do not. It is impossible to heal within an area in which the progression of time has ceased. It isn't a time dilation field it is a stasis field. Time within remains static, it has not been slowed but rather it has been brought to a total halt. Anyway, even if it was slowed that would mean he would probably have died.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Heaven said:


> I can see your point , But "Lion El'Jonson" is known to be alive ?


 Yes he is sleeping with the watchers in the dark.... sounds kinda weird now that I say it. lol


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Bid Bloo is not healing cos thats impossible in a stasis field so he does not count and Angron probably wont do much as he is banished at the moment and still has most of a century to wait before he can do anything.


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## Heaven (Mar 11, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Yes he is sleeping with the watchers in the dark.... sounds kinda weird now that I say it. lol


Yeah I heard hes there waiting for when he is needed again.



Captain Stillios said:


> Bid Bloo is not healing cos thats impossible in a stasis field so he does not count and Angron probably wont do much as he is banished at the moment and still has most of a century to wait before he can do anything.


Sorry I dont really know, ive only been reading fluff for a week.
Just what ive heard.

Is angron the guy who got banished to the back of his mind by a daemon ?


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## countchocula86 (Sep 1, 2008)

> The final secret known only to a very select few is that, buried even deeper within the Rock than Luther, Jonson lies sleeping, waiting with the Watchers in the Dark for the time when he will be needed again, to lead the Dark Angels in a new and greater crusade. The Emperor is one who also knows of this secret.


This sounds very very mythology-y, this idea that one day he will return! Its powerful imagery that gives hope to humanity and bolsters his chapter. But personally, I think hes dead. Its just, when you have heroes of such magnitude as the Primarchs, its no fun to just say "oh ya, eventually he just died of old age" it totally ruins the imagery


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Heaven said:


> Yeah I heard hes there waiting for when he is needed again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just remember that stasis= no change. Lol

Fulgrim was.


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## Heaven (Mar 11, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Just remember that stasis= no change. Lol
> 
> Fulgrim was.


Yeah but this is a fantasy universe 

and ive also read that by the will of the emperor he is healing.
The emperor seems like he could defy physics laws to me.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Then lets see him heal his own ass! lol And that’s also the zealous fools talking.... not the guys who actually know wtf if going on.


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## Kale Hellas (Aug 26, 2009)

i don't remember were i read it but apparently stasis in 40k doesn't stop time but slows it to an extreme so that it appears as if it stopped, so he could be healing


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well..... even if it didn't stop time completely, which it does, it would mean that he would be dieing. lol


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## Heaven (Mar 11, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Well..... even if it didn't stop time completely, which it does, it would mean that he would be dieing. lol


Unless it was slowed to a point that his cell heal faster than the poison.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Yeah..... lol no. His system was shutting down as they chucked him in. Besides, the only reason the blade didn't fry Horus within a few hours was because he was getting blood pumped into him as fast as they could rig it so if you slowed shit down all it would do was slow how fast it killed him. Besides, nothing would change for him. He wouldn’t perceive any time distortion so it wouldn’t change...... jack shit tbh.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

So, when the Emperor dies in a big panic the Imperium tosses the Void Dragon onto the Golden Throne and suddenly the entire galaxy explodes.

Imperium is just heading into a dark tunnel, but there is light on the other end. He'll die alright, there will be a long period of panic, then the Last Warp Bender will rise up and save the day... (for a minute anyway)


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## hungryugolino (Sep 12, 2009)

Quite frankly, the Ultras are annoying enough without their Lord and Master. I say Guilliman wakes up, launches a Smurf crusade, and gets promptly vaporized by a multi-melta.

Now that's plot advancement I can get behind.


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## Malgron (Jan 6, 2010)

This probably won't happen but it would be a way to go:

The Emp dies and humans become in charge of terra/imperium. With no way to navigate the warp safely, planets are left to defend themselves. Space marine chapters have even less of a connection to humans and are in some cases, stranded. Chaos spreads quickly, Imperial units become traitor. Some space marines have to ally with unlikely races. Terra begins attempting to use geneseed to create defense, claiming the Emp will return from the warp to save them all. The Mars adepts could begin unleashing its forces to defend or destroy. The Chaos Legions belch forth from the eye of Terror. Dark Eldar take billions as slaves from undefended planets.

This would let them create a couple SM chapters with a flavour and weap/vechicle/jetpack based on ally( a tau ally chapter, an eldar ally)

Bring out Traitor guard, and the legions in a Codex: traitors extremis

Adept of Mars army with servitors, battlebots, and augmented IG

I'm sure they could also include a reason for a new Necron codex.

This brings more of an action setting of who is fighting who, and how long can they hold out type thing.

Anyways, just a thought


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## solkan (Apr 24, 2008)

If Guilliman (or however that's spelled) is healing, it's clearly a sign that those gauntlets are infused with the powers of Chaos. Everyone does remember where they came from in the first place, right? :secret:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

solkan said:


> If Guilliman (or however that's spelled) is healing, it's clearly a sign that those gauntlets are infused with the powers of Chaos. Everyone does remember where they came from in the first place, right? :secret:


You mean the Gauntlets of Ultramar? The ones that he is not wearing? :laugh:


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

yeah there have definitely been several fluff threads on this and what may come from it. GW has plenty of strings to pull if they need to. Not to mention there is always the option of simply uncovering something that was previously unknown because it was made up on the spot lol. Something that would create an equal forces once more.


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## Classs (Jan 18, 2009)

Hasn't the emporer been dying since Inquisitor was released 20 years ago?


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## Corporal Chaos (Nov 27, 2007)

I think that to have the story advance in time would be the end of the game. This is not a story that is meant to have a fullfilling ending. Our games advance it for us. Really what would we, as gamers, do if they ended the story? Like your favorite tv shows or books? If it does have a conclusive ending then what are we really fighting for. This is supposed to be open ended for our creative minds to puzzle out. And so many people want to regress in the story where LOTS of gaps exsist. 10K years is alot of space to fill in considering there is "A million" human planets out there. So many non recognized chapters from the various foundings and lost companies of Space Marines not to mention IG and PDF forces. No I feel that for GW to write an end to the 40K saga would mean DOOM! for all of us who create and ponder the vagaries of human existance in the warhammer universe. Cannon is just a spring board for our imaginations and who fully embraces all of it anyway? The Emporer is dead or is he? Chaos will rule and the Tyranids will become house pets of Khorne. For real? I make my story from one battle to another it makes me happy. The only thing I can depend on is having a Rogue Trader advance into unknown space and find another planet to take in the name of.... Chaos. Yeah Chaos is already wining. Ha. Do not take it too seriously.
Da Corporal

Wow I got lengthy didn't I..


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

They could do some sort of 'Jesus reborn' thing with him...

Take the Sanguinor... Technically, you could say he's Sanguinius reborn through genetic memory. 

Why not do something similar with the Emperor and the others like Dorn etc... They re-emerge reborn in one of the successor chapters and we get a crusade of Marines and loyalists saying that they're X reborn, with others saying, no your not, your heretics!' And we get a 3 way heresy crusade with the new 'Rebirth' Marines, fighting the origional marines, while you have Chaos trying to capture the reborn characters in an attempt to courrupt them...

This works both ways as you could have the traitors who are dead, come back similarly... but, without the chaos courruption as The Emperor origionally intented them to be.

Que the Horus Heresy that many people want to play, while advancing the plot, and bringing about a heck load of new things as the reborn bring back forgotten technologies in their genetic memory and we get a bunch of new tanks and weapon types etc.

Its an idea at least.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

black crusade assails terra, emperor awakens and leads the armies of mankind into battle, lost loyalist primarchs return to battle. chaos forces withdraw. balance is restored and war continues. there you have it, a small run down of how gw could pull themselves out of the current grimdark-ness.


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## Asamodai (Oct 19, 2008)

I think with Guilliman the whole point was that he *is* healing *despite* being in stasis. It's supposed to be miraculous.

I'm pretty sure that was in an Index Astartes article in White Dwarf.


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## Heaven (Mar 11, 2010)

Asamodai said:


> I think with Guilliman the whole point was that he *is* healing *despite* being in stasis. It's supposed to be miraculous.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that was in an Index Astartes article in White Dwarf.


Thats what I think, The amount of wierd ass things in this game .....


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## Caledor (Jan 15, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> You mean the Gauntlets of Ultramar? The ones that he is not wearing? :laugh:


Actually, the Gauntlets of Ultramar rest in the Shrine of the Primarch (doesn't say if he's wearing them or not) unless they are needed. At least, that's what was said in the 3rd ed SM codex, and probably the 4th as well.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Ah some new optimist...... We will have you thinking otherwise by the summers end. Lol


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Caledor said:


> Actually, the Gauntlets of Ultramar rest in the Shrine of the Primarch (doesn't say if he's wearing them or not) unless they are needed. At least, that's what was said in the 3rd ed SM codex, and probably the 4th as well.


That's because it also tells you calgar wears them. Lol


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## CursedUNTILLDEATH (Apr 25, 2010)

1.Do we want Johnson back? He is probaly the most human (soul wise) of the primarchs and in my opainin would make things better for a short while and then he would go crazy and everything would fall apart.
2.The emporer has been dying for like 20 years according to GW so he anit going out anytime soon.
3.5th ed SM codex hints at Smurf #1 healing in statis. It hints, dosnt say exactly. 
4.If GW had balls, then they would have in 6th ed a major chaos invasion of the imperuim and humantiy with their backs to a cliff (more then they are now).
5. Mechanicus codex... come on GW, im waitng...
6.What about traitor IG too (a real codex not the varks stuff)
7. In my opainin the primarch that really needs to return is vulkun. Russ or Khan are my
number 2.
8.And on a final note, GW needs make a Benghsi faction with 6th. Their super hostile Xenos and would fit fine with the 40k fluff


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

Corporal Chaos said:


> I think that to have the story advance in time would be the end of the game. This is not a story that is meant to have a fullfilling ending. Our games advance it for us. Really what would we, as gamers, do if they ended the story? Like your favorite tv shows or books? If it does have a conclusive ending then what are we really fighting for. This is supposed to be open ended for our creative minds to puzzle out. And so many people want to regress in the story where LOTS of gaps exsist. 10K years is alot of space to fill in considering there is "A million" human planets out there. So many non recognized chapters from the various foundings and lost companies of Space Marines not to mention IG and PDF forces. No I feel that for GW to write an end to the 40K saga would mean DOOM! for all of us who create and ponder the vagaries of human existance in the warhammer universe. Cannon is just a spring board for our imaginations and who fully embraces all of it anyway? The Emporer is dead or is he? Chaos will rule and the Tyranids will become house pets of Khorne. For real? I make my story from one battle to another it makes me happy. The only thing I can depend on is having a Rogue Trader advance into unknown space and find another planet to take in the name of.... Chaos. Yeah Chaos is already wining. Ha. Do not take it too seriously.
> Da Corporal
> 
> Wow I got lengthy didn't I..


I agree with you 100%. That is the purpose of this game after all. I guess I just like plot resolutions. Though it is unlikely that my hopes will come to fruition, I certainly would like to see some change. Though it is probably best it stays the way it is.


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