# Abaddon vs Vect



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I learn a bit more about Vect with the New DE Codex. However is this Dark King a match for this Dark Lord? 

Who wins?


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> I learn a bit more about Vect with the New DE Codex. However is this Dark King a match for this Dark Lord?
> 
> Who wins?


...........In what? Personal combat? A strategic conflict? A battle of tactics? A game of scrabble? What?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

It doesnt matter. You can say 1 on 1, you can come up with points on a battlefield with armies, hell it can be who is better at having who assinated. If these 2 are enemies, who is walking away? Im sure everyone will have a scenario, and those are fun to read.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Vect, Abbadon is where he is because hes got the favor of his gods.
Vect is where he is from his own genius and guile.
but fluff wise, abbadon would still live since the chaos gods would do something to keep him alive despite losing to vect every time.

as for in CC combat if you go through with pure stats to look at them both. 
-Vect strikes first, hits and wounds abbadon on a 3+ and will reroll hits via prefered enemy with 6 attacks. and until he takes a wound he has a 2+ invul save.

-Abbadon has to take Vects attacks before he can strike back, but his weapon does give him strength 8 when attacking. so because of his WS, he will hit on 4s and wound on 2s with rerolls, with his 4+d6 attacks, only one wound would have to go through for an ID. He also has a permanent 4+ invul save. BUT: if he rolls a 1 for his attacks he will not get any attacks off, since his weapon is rebeling. 

given this information, they are both subject to the dice gods as to who would win. statistically, Vect has the upper hand, striking first, hitting almost every time, because of prefered enemy, and wounding on 3s, where Abbadon is hitting vect on 4s, so half his attacks will miss, but then surely wound, assuming +4 attacks from the daemon weapon on average when it does not rebel, he would cause about 4 wounds. but he NEEDs to finish vect off in turn 1, for he will not get a second chance the second assault phase to kill vect before being killed himself. 

the above is just the facts assuming both went face to face with NO assistance from other units, without shooting, or charging. 

tatically, Vect has to deal with the cunning and guile of his entire treacherous race who will backstab eachother as soon as the oppertunity shows itself, abbadon can not say the same, abbadon has the luxury of having a massive legion comepletely loyal to him without the ambition to kill him to take his position. So for Vect to be in charge of his entire race, coming up from the very bottom, says more about his tatical genius, then any victory abbadon has acheived since he was chosen by his 'gods'

Edit: i just did a bunch of test rolls useing both of their profiles (without charge bonuses). out of doing it 10 times, Vect won only twice... the dice gods hate me... (basically, EVERY daemon weapon roll I did was a 5 or 6, and when i rolled low hits, id get a 1 in the saves) 

I would enjoy seeing what everyone else gets, result wise useing the profiles out of 10 deaths (vect has 5 attacks +1 for 2 CCW, hits on 3s with rerolls and wounds on 3s, 2+ inv save but no EW, Abbadon has 4 base attacks + d6, a 1 negating all attacks that round, hits on 4s, wounds on 2s with rerolls, 4+ save for him)


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Vect just because Failbaddon just is what he is


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Vect wins for exactly the same reasons he beats Creed. I've gone into that in quite a bit of depth so I'm not going to repeat myself here but basically it comes down to superior mobility.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Whoa, whoa, whoa... are you saying DE mobility and tech superior to Chaos? No way. IG hell yes. Warp hell no. Chaos have the benefits of Sorcery that allows Chaos Warp Portals, Mental/Spiritual attacks/recons, and Daemons (Particuly Slannesh ones) to summon at any area any time. Their is a reason Chaos and Necs are Eldar worst enemies. All the Spped in the world mean nothing when Fiends, Seekers, and KoSs are running into your Raiding force from a sudden warp portal. After reading Dark Disciple where 1 Chaos Lord spawn enough Slannesh Daemons to pwn a enitre DE ship with Dracon says alot on this. 

Vect vs Abaddon vs Vect is pretty close to call. Vect is Smart and badass in prep. However since Eldar a Slannesh favorite meal I see Abaddon doing mad damage with the Gods watching and helping him. Its more like DE vs CSM and Daemons. The armies are more closley match if not DE are slighlty out done by Chaos Forces.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

the only reason Slaanesh gets to munch on DE is because of their ties to the warp and the fact their heinous acts pratically feed and sustain slaanesh. CSM themselves are no better then SM, and the Undivided CSM themselves get less help from any particular god since they are fence sitters, with the exception of Abbadon who has the love from all 4, and even then, Vect is superior to him in pratically every way, from a tatical P.O.V. Yes, seeing a massive amount of daemons spawn ontop of one DE ship is bad, but.... the DE dont come with just one ship, they come with 10, no 20, possibly even 30, per imperium ship. they rely on speed and tatics over armor and protection, but they definitely have superior tech and tatics over the CSM, the CSM have psykers, but any good force of DE knowingly getting into battle with CSM will certainly bring the means to defeat them, which is very much within their power.

the CSM and daemons, the only reason the DE do not exterminate them (their hatred is definitly there in order to have the DE exterminate them) is because they all hide in the warp, their 'homeworlds' and such are all in the warp, and they only come out of the warp to attack something, and the DE do not sit there watching for them. (the DE wont go into the warp because that would, basically, kill them since they are wraiths of their former selves thanks to being in the webway when their empire fell.)

Vect would out maneuver Abbadon any day of the millennium.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

In fluff? I would say Abaddon. He is the warmaster of chaos.... Vect is the ruler of a shit hole populated the damned remnants of a people with the foresight of a monkey, considering everyone with half a brain was screaming "STOP FUCKING YOU TWITS".


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> In fluff? I would say Abaddon. He is the warmaster of chaos.... Vect is the ruler of a shit hole populated the damned remnants of a people with the foresight of a monkey, considering everyone with half a brain was screaming "STOP FUCKING YOU TWITS".


:laugh:Nice


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> In fluff? I would say Abaddon. He is the warmaster of chaos.... Vect is the ruler of a shit hole populated the damned remnants of a people with the foresight of a monkey, considering everyone with half a brain was screaming "STOP FUCKING YOU TWITS".


So full of win!


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> the only reason Slaanesh gets to munch on DE is because of their ties to the warp and the fact their heinous acts pratically feed and sustain slaanesh. CSM themselves are no better then SM, and the Undivided CSM themselves get less help from any particular god since they are fence sitters, with the exception of Abbadon who has the love from all 4, and even then, Vect is superior to him in pratically every way, from a tatical P.O.V. Yes, seeing a massive amount of daemons spawn ontop of one DE ship is bad, but.... the DE dont come with just one ship, they come with 10, no 20, possibly even 30, per imperium ship. they rely on speed and tatics over armor and protection, but they definitely have superior tech and tatics over the CSM, the CSM have psykers, but any good force of DE knowingly getting into battle with CSM will certainly bring the means to defeat them, which is very much within their power.
> 
> the CSM and daemons, the only reason the DE do not exterminate them (their hatred is definitly there in order to have the DE exterminate them) is because they all hide in the warp, their 'homeworlds' and such are all in the warp, and they only come out of the warp to attack something, and the DE do not sit there watching for them. (the DE wont go into the warp because that would, basically, kill them since they are wraiths of their former selves thanks to being in the webway when their empire fell.)
> 
> Vect would out maneuver Abbadon any day of the millennium.



You know all those ships you said the dark eldar attack with? Great news, Each one now has 30,000 Daemons on it. 

The only reason you back the DE so much is because they are your favored race. Chaos not only out numbers the DE but they also have daemons and Space marines. DE have shown that they dont do well when in open combat with astertes


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The reason Vect holds superiority is because he know which fights he cannot win long term. 

This being one of them. :no:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

The problem with this kind of confrontation is that there are so many variables to take into account, and I would argue the question posed has to be very specific in order to arrive at a remotely agreeable consensus.

Let's take Abaddon to begin with. He is Lord of the Black Legion and can realistically call upon the majority of the Legion on a whim. The Black Legion itself is by far the largest Astartes Legion in existence and is a military force of considerable power. Abaddon personally has never been noted as a tactical genius, but is a formidable warrior who bears one of the most powerful weapons in 40k lore.

Now Vect. Well Vect literally is on another level, the complexity of his mind is so intricate that it has been compared to the Maze of Tzeentch itself. The very fact that he has ruled Commorragh for thousands of years against all the odds, and against all the competition goes a way to prove this. He can call upon not only his own Kabal but probably a majority of the Dark Eldar armed forces, which is an unknown (but high) number. Then though there is probably too many logistical risks to take into account for Vect to ever committ such a large and consistent force, notably the sheer amount of internal strife. The Dark Eldar do outstrip the Chaos forces technologically though.

Within both the Black Legion and the Kabal of the Black Heart there are countless power struggles and internal strife. Vect is much more equipped and experienced to deal with this, whereby it could be argued Abaddon has only largely done so due to divine favour. And not all of the strife is directed at the respective leaders, there would inevitably be power struggles between the various factions and other lords as well. But regardless, for both factions this would be a factor in any hypothetical conflict.

Now it is in comparison of these two forces that you have to get specific, because there are literally too many variables. If the Chaos Gods got involved on some level for example, the battle would likely be dictated by their whims (or they would at least have a major effect) and not by actual force of arms or tactical ingenuity. Tactically who is superior? Vect, without a doubt. Whose military force is superior? Well its very hard to call. Vect could probably call on the majority of the armed forces of Commorragh, where as Abaddon bears the allegience of the Black Legion as well as other factions, including the likes of vast hordes of the Lost and the Damned. Then would you also factor in the potential for Abaddon to call upon daemonic legions? Slaanesh's interest would likely be peaked if a very large contingent of Dark Eldar appeared in realspace. The thing is Vect knows all this, and is conscious of the dangers, and therefore probably wouldn't even turn up! Then where would this hypothetical war take place? Where would Vect allow it to take place? Would Abaddon take the bait? The thing you have to remember though is that Vect would not committ a large force without at least a high probability of victory or at least assurance of achieving some other (hidden) aim. Seeing as Vect would have no reason to emerge from the webway to seek battle with Abaddon we can conclude it simply wouldn't happen. 

One on one? Well it may sound like a cop-out to some, but I highly doubt Vect would ever allow himself to get in this situation. As he climbed his way up the echelons of Dark Eldar society he never once personally slew another Eldar, the assassin's blade was always in anothers hand (wittingly or not). He was far too shrewd for that game. Similarily why would he risk his own person against the Warmaster of Chaos if he would not so against lowly Dark Eldar? But then if you forced a personal confrontation to occur its still not clear. Especially considering Abaddon bears the protection of the gods...

For my liking there is just too many variables to conclude with a definitive answer. The only thing you can conclude is that such a conflict would likely never occur, because Vect has no reason for it to. And even Abaddon probably wouldn't rush headlong into a campaign against the Dark Eldar, committing such a force needed would bring with it too many risks (internal and external) for it to be worth it.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Whoa, whoa, whoa... are you saying DE mobility and tech superior to Chaos?


Yes, yes I am.



> Warp hell no. Chaos have the benefits of Sorcery that allows Chaos Warp Portals, Mental/Spiritual attacks/recons, and Daemons (Particuly Slannesh ones) to summon at any area any time.


1) Abaddon does not command the warp, nor does he command daemons. 
2) Possession and witch-craft are iffy at best and the DE are likely to have ways of countering them.
3) Chaos Warp portals are no where near as reliable, transportable or effective as the web-way portals that the DE have constant access to.




> Their is a reason Chaos and Necs are Eldar worst enemies.


It's cause they were created to fight one and the other destroyed their civilization. It has little to do with how hard they are to fight.



> All the Spped in the world mean nothing when Fiends, Seekers, and KoSs are running into your Raiding force from a sudden warp portal.


All the daemons in the world mean nothing when by the time the ritual to summon them is complete all your acolytes are cut in half and there's a half dozen incubi standing around you.



> After reading Dark Disciple where 1 Chaos Lord spawn enough Slannesh Daemons to pwn a enitre DE ship with Dracon says alot on this.


One fluff source citing a highly unusual circumstance hardly represents proof of reliablity. After all if one Lord could summon daemons like that at whim the Imperium would've been fucked a long time ago.



> Vect vs Abaddon vs Vect is pretty close to call. Vect is Smart and badass in prep. However since Eldar a Slannesh favorite meal I see Abaddon doing mad damage with the Gods watching and helping him. Its more like DE vs CSM and Daemons. The armies are more closley match if not DE are slighlty out done by Chaos Forces.


CotE has it right on this. Vect wins because he *never* attacks without the assurance of winning. Abaddon cannot breach the webway in force and thus cannot force Vect to fight him. Any hypothetical fight that occurs between these two happens at Vect's discrection and the time and place of his choosing. You'd be hard pressed to beat a man under these kinds of circumstances, let alone a master of strategy and tactics.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The entire battle could very well be the plans of tzeentch, so Vect could very well get his as kicked. Besides, I am assuming this is a fight where they both stand on even footing with neither possessing the advantage of terrain. In a head to head fight, I believe the DE would be at a loss.

Of course, this will never be brought to a consensus; neither camps will agree.

Vect is brilliant, I will give him that. But could he beat to champion of the chaos gods? I very much doubt that. At least not in a fight anyway.

Also, this is hypothetical, it doesn't matter if it wouldn't ever happen, this is only considering how it would go if it did.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The problem with this kind of confrontation is that there are so many variables to take into account, and I would argue the question posed has to be very specific in order to arrive at a remotely agreeable consensus.
> 
> Let's take Abaddon to begin with. He is Lord of the Black Legion and can realistically call upon the majority of the Legion on a whim. The Black Legion itself is by far the largest Astartes Legion in existence and is a military force of considerable power. Abaddon personally has never been noted as a tactical genius, but is a formidable warrior who bears one of the most powerful weapons in 40k lore.
> 
> ...


:goodpost:
As always I agree with CotE and his wisdom. :biggrin:

Though in a war of attrition, Dark Lord Abby would win 1000 to 1. In personal close combat, would be hard to tell as Vects personal fighting ability has yet to measured and Abby has been around for 10,000 years being one of the oldest space marines still alive and was Captain of the First Company of the Luna Wolves for Horus, so that has some weight to it and validity to Abby's abilities as a fighter and commander, plus being the Warmaster of Chaos and the ultimate Chaos Champ with the Dark Gods favor (which is a big plus). He also commands the largest coalition of Chaos Forces the Galaxy has ever seen, plus additional forces through daemonic assistance, though it can be argued if his leadership is only stable through his status as "Oh Favored One" as his personality and personal ability far exceeds those of any other commander and his status is merely a rep boost. 

As CotE said though, way to many variables, and being realistic it just wouldnt happen. haha.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> The entire battle could very well be the plans of tzeentch, so Vect could very well get his as kicked.


But is Vect's mind not likened to that of Tzeentch itself? That would be a battle of manipulation for the ages.



> Besides, I am assuming this is a fight where they both stand on even footing with neither possessing the advantage of terrain. In a head to head fight, I believe the DE would be at a loss.
> 
> Of course, this will never be brought to a consensus; neither camps will agree.


Well I'll agree that if you put the DE in a straight up fight where they hold no advantages then they will almost certainly lose. The reason for this is because it ignores* everything* the DE do. They don't fight head to head, they use speed, surprise and manipulation as weapons before the conflict even starts to gain every possible advantage. They don't fight fair, and why should they?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> But is Vect's mind not likened to that of Tzeentch itself? That would be a battle of manipulation for the ages.


And the Emperor is called a god, yet he is no such thing. Being likened to a god and being like a god are to very, VERY different things entirely. 




> Well I'll agree that if you put the DE in a straight up fight where they hold no advantages then they will almost certainly lose. The reason for this is because it ignores* everything* the DE do. They don't fight head to head, they use speed, surprise and manipulation as weapons before the conflict even starts to gain every possible advantage. They don't fight fair, and why should they?


It's a hypothetical. Doesn't really need to make sense. Just a "what if" sort of thing. There is no way to really tell who would win. If the Gods came into play, it would be a win for chaos, if not, it could go to Vect. It depends. Though I could see the DE simply not being able to cope with numbers.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

for the record diremister, if you go by old fluff, vects been alive since before the eldar empire fall. the new fluff talks about him being a slave in M32, the Horus Heresy being in M31. But for some reason i still have difficulty believing the timelines anymore, since it continuously changes. Either way, Vect is almost as old as, if not older then Abbadon.

and gen, no way would Vect ever willingly get into a 'fair' fight as you claim, he would retreat and live, rather then stick around, fight honorably and have a fair chance of losing. as others have pointed out, Vect is devious and cunning, and has no honor, prefering the dirty unfair fight, over a fair and honorable one.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> and gen, no way would Vect ever willingly get into a 'fair' fight as you claim, he would retreat and live, rather then stick around, fight honorably and have a fair chance of losing. as others have pointed out, Vect is devious and cunning, and has no honor, prefering the dirty unfair fight, over a fair and honorable one.


Did I say he would? It's simply a "what if".


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

Vect and his buddies would get rapped by Slaanesh. Pure and simple. Fuck with Abaddon Vect... see what happens.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> The entire battle could very well be the plans of tzeentch, so Vect could very well get his as kicked.


Tzeentch's plotting is just as likely to involve defeat for Abaddon as it is for Vect...



gen.ahab said:


> Vect is brilliant, I will give him that. But could he beat to champion of the chaos gods? I very much doubt that. At least not in a fight anyway.


Eldrad once beat Abaddon in single combat...


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Tzeentch's plotting is just as likely to involve defeat for Abaddon as it is for Vect...


True.



> Eldrad once beat Abaddon in single combat...


Eldrad was a very powerful psyker and the entire thing could have been tzeentch; if he had died there than the daemon wouldn't have been able to kill and/or trap him in the warp perhaps that is what tzeentch wanted. Besides, could have very well been lucky. Point is that there is any number of reasons why he could have won.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Eldrad was a very powerful psyker and the entire thing could have been tzeentch


But then you can attribute almost anything to Tzeentch... 



gen.ahab said:


> Point is that there is any number of reasons why he could have won.


The prose generally presents it as simply Eldrad besting Abaddon in combat, then Abaddon getting spirited away before Eldrad could land the deathblow.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> But then you can attribute almost anything to Tzeentch...


I know, it is the every present "get out of argument" free card. :laugh: 



> The prose generally presents it as simply Eldrad besting Abaddon in combat, then Abaddon getting spirited away before Eldrad could land the deathblow.


 Yes, but it doesn't give us a play by play of said fight, which is what we would need.


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

who the hell is vect?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Karak The Unfaithful said:


> who the hell is vect?


:shok:

Asdrubael Vect. Lord of Commorragh?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

MEQinc said:


> But is Vect's mind not likened to that of Tzeentch itself? That would be a battle of manipulation for the ages.


I dont see how a off hand cooment of his intellect like the maze of Tzeentch rival the God that made the blasted thing and proven time and again his plots are top notch.



MEQinc said:


> Well I'll agree that if you put the DE in a straight up fight where they hold no advantages then they will almost certainly lose. The reason for this is because it ignores* everything* the DE do. They don't fight head to head, they use speed, surprise and manipulation as weapons before the conflict even starts to gain every possible advantage. They don't fight fair, and why should they?


And Chaos fight fair? I know wherever Black Legion goes Daemonic servants are right there with them. Ontop of that Chaos strikes from the warp as much as DE fight from the Webway. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Eldrad once beat Abaddon in single combat...


If I remember right that fight did not go as Eldrad like, infact he was nearly killed. Its not like he pimp smack Abaddon around, not at all. Also Eldrad was probally the most gifted Psyker next to Magnus and the Emp. That helps alot to mind war your enemy in submission. Indestrutable Rune Armore and a Weapon that can hurt Greater Daemons help too.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> And Chaos fight fair? I know wherever Black Legion goes Daemonic servants are right there with them. Ontop of that Chaos strikes from the warp as much as DE fight from the Webway.


1) I never stated that Chaos fights fair, only that they would prefer a straight up fight to the type of fight the DE would bring them.
2) Daemons are unpredictable and cannot be counted on to serve your whims on your schedule.
3) The warp is no where near as reliable an exit point as the webway, nor does it get you as close to the planet.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

MEQinc said:


> 1) I never stated that Chaos fights fair, only that they would prefer a straight up fight to the type of fight the DE would bring them.
> 2) Daemons are unpredictable and cannot be counted on to serve your whims on your schedule.
> 3) The warp is no where near as reliable an exit point as the webway, nor does it get you as close to the planet.


1) Night Lord novels show Chaos underhanded and stricking from the shadows attitude. The NLs in Night Haunter and Dex showed the ability to drop out of the warp in very specific areas to strike. Storm of Iron and Dead Sky Black Sun show IWs of all CSMs using feaints, ambush, sabotage, and totaly off the wall tatics. Word Beare novels showed already how they deal with Eldar hit and runs, by blowing them to peices or using their Daemonic servants rip them apart.They were also out numbered by the DE. Then we have the Alpha Legion, who are better than DE ANY DAY at that type of warfare. 

2) If you ever read the Novels and all the CSM dexes you would know how wrong that statment is. Most Daemons are bound in servitude by CSMs not "oh please help us". Daemons Engines, Poosessed, and Familiars to name a few Daemons that are as much yours to control as a Servitor is to a Tech Priest. Also any CSM with gifts attach to him have daemonic power. Then you have Chaos Sorcerors, Deamon Princes, and Lords who can summon daemons on a whim. This is establish in more than one source as you seem to belive. No cultist or large scale ritual. Just sacrifices whether it your enemies or your own, unless your a DP then its even more on a whim.

3) As I already pointed out in Nightlord fluff and Word Bearer fluff shows in mutiple Dex entries and novels that they can drop out of the warp in pretty exact areas or even on top of other fletts with pressicion that no Imperial can hope to achieve, thanks largly to Possessed ships. Hell TS showed before they went full traior they can fly thru the Warp and recon areas DE could not hope to. Also the Warp is more reliable to its servants than the Crumbling, Decaying Webway. Who knows where that Webway Gate is placed, could be close or very far away. Its a fix point, not the Warp. 

So I cant see where you get DE are superior mobility wise. Another thing is the cop out comment that DE cant be tough in Commoragh, well BL cant be touch in the Warp or Eye of Terror. Maybe Ahriman can lead Lord Abaddon back into the webway :laugh:.

Polls are currently at 17 for Abby, 12 for Vect, and 2 undecided.


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

> :shok:
> 
> Asdrubael Vect. Lord of Commorragh?


nope, never heard of him


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

That because he was a semi tough guy in 3rd edtion DE Dex to Dr. Doom of the 40k Universe with this new DE Dex. Someone had to be the badass Eldar when Eldrad died.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> 2) Daemons are unpredictable and cannot be counted on to serve your whims on your schedule.





Warlock in Training said:


> 2) If you ever read the Novels and all the CSM dexes you would know how wrong that statment is. Most Daemons are bound in servitude by CSMs not "oh please help us". Daemons Engines, Poosessed, and Familiars to name a few Daemons that are as much yours to control as a Servitor is to a Tech Priest. Also any CSM with gifts attach to him have daemonic power. Then you have Chaos Sorcerors, Deamon Princes, and Lords who can summon daemons on a whim. This is establish in more than one source as you seem to belive. No cultist or large scale ritual. Just sacrifices whether it your enemies or your own, unless your a DP then its even more on a whim.


_MEQ_ is right _Warlock_. Daemons cannot be compared as to a servitor is to a tech priest in terms of controllability. Daemons do not willingly submit themselves to mortals, and if bound to a mortal will constantly seek _"freedom"_ and then vengeance. Daemons also cannot be summoned as easily as your making out, and when they are, they are (in terms of a daemonic incursion) near-impossible to control and direct. Its not a simple matter of clicking your fingers and a horde of daemons appearing ready to obey your every command, any large-scale daemonic incursions will generally occur at the daemons' discretion (enacted by their constant will to seek entrance to the material realm) and generally cannot be controlled by mortals. 



MEQinc said:


> 3) The warp is no where near as reliable an exit point as the webway, nor does it get you as close to the planet.





Warlock in Training said:


> 3) As I already pointed out in Nightlord fluff and Word Bearer fluff shows in mutiple Dex entries and novels that they can drop out of the warp in pretty exact areas or even on top of other fletts with pressicion that no Imperial can hope to achieve, thanks largly to Possessed ships. Hell TS showed before they went full traior they can fly thru the Warp and recon areas DE could not hope to. Also the Warp is more reliable to its servants than the Crumbling, Decaying Webway. Who knows where that Webway Gate is placed, could be close or very far away. Its a fix point, not the Warp.


The webway is much, much more reliable than the warp, even though its not as complete as it was pre-Fall.



Warlock in Training said:


> So I cant see where you get DE are superior mobility wise. Another thing is the cop out comment that DE cant be tough in Commoragh, well BL cant be touch in the Warp or Eye of Terror. Maybe Ahriman can lead Lord Abaddon back into the webway :laugh:.


The Dark Eldar are far superior mobility wise, on and off the battlefield. The difference of course being that Abaddon and the Black Legion are trapped within the Eye of Terror, barred behind the Cadian Gate (or at least were pre-13th Black Crusade), where as the Dark Eldar have access to large sections of the webway and therefore the galaxy from Commorragh.



Karak The Unfaithful said:


> nope, never heard of him


Fair one. :biggrin:


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> _MEQ_ is right _Warlock_. Daemons cannot be compared as to a servitor is to a tech priest in terms of controllability. Daemons do not willingly submit themselves to mortals, and if bound to a mortal will constantly seek _"freedom"_ and then vengeance. Daemons also cannot be summoned as easily as your making out, and when they are, they are (in terms of a daemonic incursion) near-impossible to control and direct. Its not a simple matter of clicking your fingers and a horde of daemons appearing ready to obey your every command, any large-scale daemonic incursions will generally occur at the daemons' discretion (enacted by their constant will to seek entrance to the material realm) and generally cannot be controlled by mortals.


Well the Word bearer novels , DoW 1 and 2, Books with Honsou, and Codex entries sure seem otherwise. I cant deny that Daemons are not totaly loyal at all, always seek control themselves, and have a tendecy to fight a master losing control. Yet these sources also show perfect harmony with them and outright domination over them. They also show alot of snap of fingers for instant army.





Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The webway is much, much more reliable than the warp, even though its not as complete as it was pre-Fall.


Cant deny that at all. Im just saying the webway is limited in where you can go, and the warp is not so unreliable to Chaos forces as to drop off the BL in another system from their target. 




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Dark Eldar are far superior mobility wise, on and off the battlefield. The difference of course being that Abaddon and the Black Legion are trapped within the Eye of Terror, barred behind the Cadian Gate (or at least were pre-13th Black Crusade), where as the Dark Eldar have access to large sections of the webway and therefore the galaxy from Commorragh.


I really dont see them as trap, if they were then the Nightlords who attack the Naval Academy a mere 400 lightyears I belive (dont have the dex on me) from Terra couldnt happen. They cant move in bulk or make a straight shot to Terra but they can move in small warbands and the Gothic Sector saw a huge BL fleet that shouldnt have gotten to where it was. Honsou made it to fukin Ultramar, all the way across the galaxy from the EoT. I dont see how they are trapped really. Also those Webways depend on size and location for the size and area Vect will raid.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

DoW 1 and 2 are NOT cannon fluff, DoW1 and 2 rape the tabletop fluff so god damn bad it hurts to think about it. some of the other novels, with the exception of the HH books, are considered NOT CANNON fluff. the fact you mentioned DoW 1 and 2, makes me think you are trying to spout BS there warlock.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

I would imagine all black library novels are CANON (note the 1 n) not just the HH series.

also why would the DOW series not be canon? I assumed part of the agreement to use GW images etc would be not to screw up the fluff?


EDIT: also in ref to your point about daemons warlock, Eisenhorn has absolute control over Cherubael in the last section of the book when he really lays on the warding so yes daemons can be controlled....just not easily


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Well the Word bearer novels , DoW 1 and 2, Books with Honsou, and Codex entries sure seem otherwise. I cant deny that Daemons are not totaly loyal at all, always seek control themselves, and have a tendecy to fight a master losing control. Yet these sources also show perfect harmony with them and outright domination over them. They also show alot of snap of fingers for instant army.


I'm not seeing the sort of instant, indomitable control your suggesting in these sources (only the WBs and C:CSM admitedly). I see advanced and time consuming rituals that allow for the daemons to be manifested on the battle field and the occasional daemonic incursion. However rituals can be interupted easily and must be planned in advance, which is difficult to do if you're not aware that you're fighting.



> I really dont see them as trap, if they were then the Nightlords who attack the Naval Academy a mere 400 lightyears I belive (dont have the dex on me) from Terra couldnt happen. They cant move in bulk or make a straight shot to Terra but they can move in small warbands and the Gothic Sector saw a huge BL fleet that shouldnt have gotten to where it was. Honsou made it to fukin Ultramar, all the way across the galaxy from the EoT. I dont see how they are trapped really. Also those Webways depend on size and location for the size and area Vect will raid.


Small warbands are not going to trouble the DE as they can easily outnumber and outclass them. Abaddon will not concern himself with anything less than a massive push and as you yourself have noted these are extremely limited. They are trapped not in the sense that they cannot leave but in the sense that the bulk of their forces are unable to move beyond this point without extreme difficulty. The DE are not so limited.



> 1) Night Lord novels show Chaos underhanded and stricking from the shadows attitude. The NLs in Night Haunter and Dex showed the ability to drop out of the warp in very specific areas to strike. Storm of Iron and Dead Sky Black Sun show IWs of all CSMs using feaints, ambush, sabotage, and totaly off the wall tatics. Word Beare novels showed already how they deal with Eldar hit and runs, by blowing them to peices or using their Daemonic servants rip them apart.They were also out numbered by the DE. Then we have the Alpha Legion, who are better than DE ANY DAY at that type of warfare.


1) The DE are better than any of these legions at surprise and hit-and-run tactics. This is because of the superior speed of their transports/vessels.
2) Abaddon does not command a single one of these legions. He *might* be able to get *some* of them to fight for him, but they would hardly form the bulk of his army and their skills are thus irrelevant. 



> 2) If you ever read the Novels and all the CSM dexes you would know how wrong that statment is.


I am quite extensively versed in the fluff and this is where my statement is drawn from.



> Most Daemons are bound in servitude by CSMs not "oh please help us".


I never said they weren't. I said that massive numbers of daemons weren't at their beck and call. The pacts of servitude take time to set up and enact and are generally limited in size and location. 



> Daemons Engines, Poosessed, and Familiars to name a few Daemons that are as much yours to control as a Servitor is to a Tech Priest. Also any CSM with gifts attach to him have daemonic power.


While this is debatable it is also irrelevant. You suggested Abaddon could swamp Vect with hordes of summoned daemons, these are not summoned daemons. 



> Then you have Chaos Sorcerors, Deamon Princes, and Lords who can summon daemons on a whim.


On a whim? I doubt that. The summoning of daemons is a complex and ritualistic process (if you want to control them). While they may be able to apply the summons (as in use a daemon already preped) with great speed but they still must have it prepared in advance.



> 3) As I already pointed out in Nightlord fluff and Word Bearer fluff shows in mutiple Dex entries and novels that they can drop out of the warp in pretty exact areas or even on top of other fletts with pressicion that no Imperial can hope to achieve, thanks largly to Possessed ships. Hell TS showed before they went full traior they can fly thru the Warp and recon areas DE could not hope to. Also the Warp is more reliable to its servants than the Crumbling, Decaying Webway. Who knows where that Webway Gate is placed, could be close or very far away. Its a fix point, not the Warp.


It appears you misunderstood me. I was not refering to the accuracies of warp based fleet travel but rather planet based portal operations. You claimed that CSM could open warp rifts with the same kind of reliablity and speed as DE open webway gates and this is simply not true. A webway portal can be opened in any location the DE chose to fight in (hence its inclusion in the codex) and is large enough to transport the largest DE warmachines.



> So I cant see where you get DE are superior mobility wise. Another thing is the cop out comment that DE cant be tough in Commoragh, well BL cant be touch in the Warp or Eye of Terror. Maybe Ahriman can lead Lord Abaddon back into the webway :laugh:.


1)While it's true that Abaddon is untouchable in the Eye he is not in the Eye at the moment, nor can he return there with the speed Vect can. 
2) Ahriman is welcome to lead the Black Legion into the webway. I'm sure Vect wouldn't have all kinds of nasty surprises waiting for him. He certainly isn't capable of flushing entire sectors of his city or anything :wink:.
3)DE troops are faster than CSM. Their vehicles are faster. Their ships are faster. Their portals are easier to set up and use. They are more mobile than *any* race in the galaxy, chaos is no exception.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> I really dont see them as trap, if they were then the Nightlords who attack the Naval Academy a mere 400 lightyears I belive (dont have the dex on me) from Terra couldnt happen. They cant move in bulk or make a straight shot to Terra but they can move in small warbands and the Gothic Sector saw a huge BL fleet that shouldnt have gotten to where it was. Honsou made it to fukin Ultramar, all the way across the galaxy from the EoT. I dont see how they are trapped really. Also those Webways depend on size and location for the size and area Vect will raid.


Thats what I meant. Any large scale mobilisations or invasions *have* to pass through the Cadian Gate thus restricting their reach. The Dark Eldar on the other hand have access to what remains of the webway network from Commorragh. 



KhainiteAssassin said:


> DoW 1 and 2 are NOT cannon fluff, DoW1 and 2 rape the tabletop fluff so god damn bad it hurts to think about it. some of the other novels, with the exception of the HH books, are considered NOT CANNON fluff. the fact you mentioned DoW 1 and 2, makes me think you are trying to spout BS there warlock.


That is not strictly true. 40k has always had a fluid canon system of _"everything and nothing is canon"_. Its either down to personal preference or everything with a 40k logo on it is canon.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

This arguement is pointless. No matter what somone says or how good their argument is. The Vect lads will just say; "Oh but Vect wouldn't even be there.". "Vect Wouldn't attack unless he knew he was going to win" Really? Thats the ultimate easy mode to an argument. 

So heres my counter. Abaddon wouldn't attack unless he had prepared massive rituals and all of the forces at his disposal. Only then he would enter Commoragh, summon a fast horde of Daemons. And Clusterfuck the DE and Vect.

This is like argueing religion, your not making a realistic arguement by shouting "NANANANA Never going to happen!"


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

:goodpost:Well said (ahem:Khainite Assassin)


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

CotE and Warlock, I will point out WHY BL books and DoW1/2 are non cannon.

Certain books in the BL library take such huge liberties that they are mearly 'based upon the 40k universe' meaning NON CANNON.

ALL the video games made of the 40k universe are 'based upon the 40k universe' and they too, take some serious liberties, DoW1 and 2 especially. They change alot of the fundamental rules of the 40k universe to make their game vision possible.

Also: DoW1 if i remember correctly, had a summoning ritual in it, which may have seemed instant, but looked like it was going on for a while. oh wait


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> CotE and Warlock, I will point out WHY BL books and DoW1/2 are non cannon.
> 
> Certain books in the BL library take such huge liberties that they are mearly 'based upon the 40k universe' meaning NON CANNON.
> 
> ...


Am afraid you're wrong here friend. You personnally may reject the canonicity of these books and games but for the purposes of a fluff debate with other people *everything* must be accepted, regardless of how little sense it might make.



Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> So heres my counter. Abaddon wouldn't attack unless he had prepared massive rituals and all of the forces at his disposal. Only then he would enter Commoragh, summon a fast horde of Daemons. And Clusterfuck the DE and Vect.


Your argument is flawed Sven. Abaddon does not have the ability to engage the DE on his own terms, Vect does. 

It is very reasonable to say that the force which can initiate the engagement will do so on their terms. It is also reasonable to say that Vect would desire to have the odds stacked heavily in his favour. It is also reasonable to say that Vect can and will have anticipated almost everything Abaddon has at his disposal. It is thus quite reasonable to say that Vect will not enage without a near certain chance of victory. It's what the DE do. You may not like it, but that doesn't make it not true.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> This arguement is pointless. No matter what somone says or how good their argument is. The Vect lads will just say; "Oh but Vect wouldn't even be there.". "Vect Wouldn't attack unless he knew he was going to win" Really? Thats the ultimate easy mode to an argument.
> 
> So heres my counter. Abaddon wouldn't attack unless he had prepared massive rituals and all of the forces at his disposal. Only then he would enter Commoragh, summon a fast horde of Daemons. And Clusterfuck the DE and Vect.
> 
> This is like argueing religion, your not making a realistic arguement by shouting "NANANANA Never going to happen!"


Truth is im done with pointing out the same thing over and over again. I read it this way, and others read it that way. Then there some that try to throw it out as not canon. :laugh: Anyway the polls speak. The majority belive Abby has it.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

DoW is not cannon for sure, the books, on the other hand, are hit and miss on if they are anywhere near fit to be part of the cannon.

one example, inquisition wars, they speak about traveling in the warp and it being like Faster then Light travel, where doing it may pass by as months for you, but years for the outside world. now, we all know this is untrue, yet, there it is, but according to you MEQ, thats cannon.

The point is: some books are NOT cannon, DoW 1 and 2, which are fluff rapes in order to make the game more accessible, are NOT cannon.


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## Shag (Jul 12, 2009)

Well my dad could beat up your dad!!!


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> one example, inquisition wars, they speak about traveling in the warp and it being like Faster then Light travel, where doing it may pass by as months for you, but years for the outside world. now, we all know this is untrue, yet, there it is, but according to you MEQ, thats cannon.


1) It's canon, not cannon.
2) This is in fact an accurate, if somewhat simplistic, view of what can happen in the warp. Indeed the entire point of warp travel is that it can work like this.
3) Inquisition Wars is canon. It is not good canon, parts of it are deeply flawed in their presentation, but it is still canon. If you want to show *why* the information presented in it is likely to be false by using other sources you are welcome to do so, and in the case of Inquisition Wars is quite simple, but you can't simply dismiss it out of hand.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> DoW is not cannon for sure


Im afraid it is. There has been a few statements from the higher-ups regarding 40k canon, essentially you can take whatever the hell you want as canon (as long as it has a 40k logo on it) or just accept that absolutley everything - despite how some sources utterly fail - is canon. 

As I said before, essentially its a policy of _"everything and nothing"_.

Aaron has said as much on Heresy here before, and if you snoop around the BL forums here for long enough im sure you'll find it. But hes also written an article on 40k canon: here.



KhainiteAssassin said:


> the books, on the other hand, are hit and miss on if they are anywhere near fit to be part of the cannon.
> 
> one example, inquisition wars, they speak about traveling in the warp and it being like Faster then Light travel, where doing it may pass by as months for you, but years for the outside world. now, we all know this is untrue, yet, there it is, but according to you MEQ, thats cannon.
> 
> The point is: some books are NOT cannon, DoW 1 and 2, which are fluff rapes in order to make the game more accessible, are NOT cannon.


This is specifically where you wrong _Khainite_ and which may be the problem. You say that a few BL novels do not _"fit to be part of the canon."_ Okay, that's great, but who has decided this? Well you personally, with your own personal interpretation of 40k. And you can take whatever the hell you want as canon, thats the beauty of it. If something doesn't align with your personal perception of what 40k is, just ignore it. But that doesn't mean everyone else will agree with you, for everyone's perception of 40k is different. And for the purposes of lore discussion, _everything_ should be regarded as canon - regardless of how crazy or irrational it may seem to most (simply because when discussing the lore you need to take everything into account to not alienate the few who may take certain crazy sources as actual lore).


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

You just stomped his yard.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

CotE says it perfectly. 

DoW is canon, though personally I take the novel`s words over the game. Which unfortunately means it is possible for an astartes captain to be rendered comatose by a retarded baby tyranid. :laugh: 

And that is how Davian Thule ended up in a dreadnought. I would have let the useless fucker die. :biggrin:


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Whoa, whoa, whoa... are you saying DE mobility and tech superior to Chaos? No way. IG hell yes. Warp hell no. Chaos have the benefits of Sorcery that allows Chaos Warp Portals, Mental/Spiritual attacks/recons, and Daemons (Particuly Slannesh ones) to summon at any area any time. Their is a reason Chaos and Necs are Eldar worst enemies. All the Spped in the world mean nothing when Fiends, Seekers, and KoSs are running into your Raiding force from a sudden warp portal. After reading Dark Disciple where 1 Chaos Lord spawn enough Slannesh Daemons to pwn a enitre DE ship with Dracon says alot on this.
> 
> Vect vs Abaddon vs Vect is pretty close to call. Vect is Smart and badass in prep. However since Eldar a Slannesh favorite meal I see Abaddon doing mad damage with the Gods watching and helping him. Its more like DE vs CSM and Daemons. The armies are more closley match if not DE are slighlty out done by Chaos Forces.


*Facepalm*


First off, DE mobility and tech are superior to Chaos, and at least their mobility is superior to even Eldar. Fact is in fluff you wouldn't be spawning warp portals out your ass to invade people, because either A) DE would employ warp-blocking stuff, or B) they's just kill your sorcs before they could open it.

VEct would win because Failbaddon would not get any help from Slaanesh as DE weaken his effects. Also, Vect and Abaddon would have retinues, no? So say Vect with 10x Incubi and Faily with, what, 10x Thousand Sons? Incubi would win.... Vect wins...


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Whoa, whoa, whoa... are you saying DE mobility and tech superior to Chaos? No way. IG hell yes. Warp hell no.


Wow I don't know how some people who have been here for so long completely miss the basics.




gen.ahab said:


> In fluff? I would say Abaddon. He is the warmaster of chaos.... Vect is the ruler of a shit hole populated the damned remnants of a people with the foresight of a monkey, considering everyone with half a brain was screaming "STOP FUCKING YOU TWITS".


Abaddon is not the warmaster of Chaos for Chaos can never be controlled. He controls the Black Legion and at times just barely.

He's just someone Chaos gave the keys to for their expensive car to play with for a while until they get bored or someone else gets their attention.

Vect on the other hand controls the entirety of the Dark Eldar with an absolute iron fist. Commoragh is not a _shithole_ nor is it populated by people lacking in the power of foresight. 

The Dark Eldar are not the Tau, they are one of the most formidable forces in the WH40k universe despite how some authors have recently portrayed them.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Did I say thy were? I said they were the damned remnants of a people whose gift of foresight wasn't great, compared to some members of their race. 

They are the last survivors of a dwindling race whose days are numbered. They are only slightly more of a threat to humanity than the craftworld eldar. They are not the Orks, chaos, nids, or necrons; they are at least 5th on the threat rating.

And yes, Ezekyle Abaddon is the warmaster of chaos, that is what he is called.
IMM, that city is a shithole.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> They are the last survivors of a dwindling race whose days are numbered. They are only slightly more of a threat to humanity than the craftworld eldar. They are not the Orks, chaos, nids, or necrons; they are at least 5th on the threat rating.


And yet with their few numbers are able to wrest control of entire planets heavily defended by Astartes, and Imperial Guard.

They don't seek to dominate everything in their path like the other alien races or at least not to my knowledge, they simply are living day to day and are solely focused on sating the thirst of Slaanesh by raiding and enslaving.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

no point in arugeing malus, everything you say falls on deaf ears to them.

for the fluff arguement that everything is fluff, that basically means: we dont give a shit about any kind of concrete fluff, we just want you to buy models. IE: things that completely rape the fluff to the point where its nothing like the game just useing the same models with the GW logo on it must be cannon fluff still, it must be accounted for in arguements like this one.

the DE are not as 'dwindling' as alot of people seem to think. they have the numbers, and the tech of their former empire, but unlike the CE, they are consistantly being sucked away by slaanesh. If they had the same agenda as chaos, Crons, nids, or Orks, they would be no 1 on the threat meter, The only reason the simple minded imperium puts them into a lower threat category then those 4 is because unlike those 4, the DE only raid planets for slaves, they have little desire to conquer, they have little desire to wipe out a race as a whole.

And abbadon is 'the warmaster of chaos' in title, and he does get help from the Traitor legions when he asks for it.

BUT malus is right on the fact hes just the guy given the keys to the shiny car until the chaos gods want their keys back.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Cyleune said:


> VEct would win because Failbaddon would not get any help from Slaanesh as DE weaken his effects. Also, Vect and Abaddon would have retinues, no? So say Vect with 10x Incubi and Faily with, what, 10x Thousand Sons? Incubi would win.... Vect wins...


Abaddon has a retinue of Chaos Terminators, this has been mentioned several times in the fluff. Why would he have a retinue of Thousand Sons?


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

The fluff was created to enhance the game and to give people something to base their armies on. It might not all be perfect and some might contradict what has come before but that doesn't mean it is wrong. If it has the 40k logo on it then it is official. You might not like it but that doesn't change the fact. 
Also if it was all very cut and dry fluff there would be no scope for different perspectives.....or in other words.....bloody boring.

And for the love of god man it is CANON not CANNON.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

There is no way in holy fuck that the DE could ever achieve the threat level of chaos or the nids. If chaos put wanted the imperium gone, it would probably be so, but they are to preoccupied with the great game of chaos to give a shit about it. The nids, for all we know, could wipe this entire galaxy clean of almost all life. The only ones that will survive that are the DE and chaos, true, but that doesn't mean they could ever be considered number one on the threat rating.


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

> There is no way in holy fuck that the DE could ever achieve the threat level of chaos or the nids. If chaos put wanted the imperium gone, it would probably be so, but they are to preoccupied with the great game of chaos to give a shit about it.


So 13 failed crusades = total pwnage now?



> The nids, for all we know, could wipe this entire galaxy clean of almost all life. The only ones that will survive that are the DE and chaos, true, but that doesn't mean they could ever be considered number one on the threat rating.


The thing with CE/DE that your not getting is that when you put races on threat level, your assuming that they are out there to conquer you. This is not their goal, their only goal is to survive. Therefore their Priority level would be low, as would their threat level, but God help you if you have something they need to survive.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

I cant help but think the most dangerous or at least most immediate threats to the imperium are the nids and necrons.

Yes the eldar of both types are dangerous definately; they can be right gits when they want to be BUT the nids are going to swamp the galaxy and eat it and the necrons are within our borders already and we don't know which world will become active next. Not to mention the imperium is screwed royally if and or when the Void Dragon wakes up.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Cyleune said:


> So 13 failed crusades = total pwnage now?


They all weren't lead by Abaddon and the ones he lead were mostly successes. It isn't his fault you don't see it.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Cyleune said:


> *Facepalm*
> 
> 
> First off, DE mobility and tech are superior to Chaos, and at least their mobility is superior to even Eldar. Fact is in fluff you wouldn't be spawning warp portals out your ass to invade people, because either A) DE would employ warp-blocking stuff, or B) they's just kill your sorcs before they could open it.
> ...



Kill Sorcs as they are the only ones? Abby with TS guard. *Facepalm* OMG.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Wow I don't know how some people who have been here for so long completely miss the basics.


Like you?



Malus Darkblade said:


> Abaddon is not the warmaster of Chaos for Chaos can never be controlled. He controls the Black Legion and at times just barely.
> 
> He's just someone Chaos gave the keys to for their expensive car to play with for a while until they get bored or someone else gets their attention.


*facepalm again* So the 10,000 year champ of the Gods who unites every traitor legion and renegade chapter is some punk that happens to be in power?



Malus Darkblade said:


> And yet with their few numbers are able to wrest control of entire planets heavily defended by Astartes, and Imperial Guard.
> 
> They don't seek to dominate everything in their path like the other alien races or at least not to my knowledge, they simply are living day to day and are solely focused on sating the thirst of Slaanesh by raiding and enslaving.


You mean the outpost and backwater worlds they are famouse for raiding? Have you ever seen more than half a Chapter of SMs sent to deal with their petty raids?



KhainiteAssassin said:


> the DE are not as 'dwindling' as alot of people seem to think. they have the numbers, and the tech of their former empire, but unlike the CE, they are consistantly being sucked away by slaanesh. If they had the same agenda as chaos, Crons, nids, or Orks, they would be no 1 on the threat meter, The only reason the simple minded imperium puts them into a lower threat category then those 4 is because unlike those 4, the DE only raid planets for slaves, they have little desire to conquer, they have little desire to wipe out a race as a whole.
> 
> And abbadon is 'the warmaster of chaos' in title, and he does get help from the Traitor legions when he asks for it.
> 
> BUT malus is right on the fact hes just the guy given the keys to the shiny car until the chaos gods want their keys back.


Yeah and you and other DE fanatics have already shown lack of respect for ESTABLISH Chaos fluff. Like for instance Abby does not control IWs or WBs or NLs. Yet in the BL novels like Storm of Iron, Dark Creed, and Night Haunter clearly states that when Abby snaps his fingers for support all the Chaos Lords (specifically God Specific ones) heed his call. The Lords state themselves they will heed his call in fear of his wrath. Its establish fluff. What fluff do you really have, 20-30 pages of establish fluff from a Dex? I know all the BL books that have DE in it get their ass wooped. Its like arguing with statistics. They have a bad running. 
Also its contiounsly establish fluff in EVERY Eldar Dex of any type that the Eldar are a DYING race. Their Tech, seeing the futur, and use of the Webway is all that keeps them as a powerbase in the 40K universe. Where do you get this stuff.



Gree said:


> Abaddon has a retinue of Chaos Terminators, this has been mentioned several times in the fluff. Why would he have a retinue of Thousand Sons?


Sad part is 10 TS and the Sorc with Abby would Decimate Vect and 10 Incubi in a fight. Those Magic Bolter rounds make mince meat of PA, byby Incubi, and the TS weilding warp like they do in a Thousand Sons is overkill with Abby.



gen.ahab said:


> There is no way in holy fuck that the DE could ever achieve the threat level of chaos or the nids. If chaos put wanted the imperium gone, it would probably be so, but they are to preoccupied with the great game of chaos to give a shit about it. The nids, for all we know, could wipe this entire galaxy clean of almost all life. The only ones that will survive that are the DE and chaos, true, but that doesn't mean they could ever be considered number one on the threat rating.


According to Legion Chaos won. There was 2 scenarios, Chaos Wins outright and has a short wild reign, or the Galaxy is condemn to a slow death with Chaos running rampant still. Like Old Night and the Fall. Seriously 1 Chaos God wiped out the ENTIRE Eldar empire at its peak, and even the Necs tried (and so far failed) to make a dent on keeping the warp out of the Ctans galaxy. The small city of DE is a threat on equal terms? Nope.



Cyleune said:


> So 13 failed crusades = total pwnage now?


Once Again you show lack of CSM knowledge. Abby lead not even half of those. *facepalm*


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Warlock, you should really go read my post again, I said that abbadon gets help from the other legions when he asks for it, but he odes not have absolute respect that horus had, yes the leaders will follow him, in by turn all the legions follow their leaders, but do they do that out of respect for Abbadon? or respect of horus, and the chaos gods, which all gave abbadon the shiny toys?

And the Eldar are always a 'dieing' race, yes, but the DE are dieing, but not going extinct, if the DE did not kill themselves at every turn, they would be even more numerous then they are now. it is the DE that keep the DE in check, they are still, practically, immortal, and they breed, and use the haemonculi to revive their dead, and use their technology to breed faster. Its only their killing of eachother (and the poor that die on the battlefield) that keeps their population in check really with all of that.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> Warlock, you should really go read my post again, I said that abbadon gets help from the other legions when he asks for it, but he odes not have absolute respect that horus had, yes the leaders will follow him, in by turn all the legions follow their leaders, but do they do that out of respect for Abbadon? or respect of horus, and the chaos gods, which all gave abbadon the shiny toys?


Most of the Chaos Lords have no respect for Abby, just fear of not heeding him. The Warsmith worked for Abby in Storm of Iron becuase he had a hidden agenda to become a DP. The Exalted in Night Haunter had hoped to gain status by heeding Abby. Marduk and Erebus showed a strong dislike of the Warmaster, but fear his Legion too much to do anything about it. Its all becuase Abby is the baddest mofo in the EoT and has the backing of the largest Legion and Chaos Gods favore.




KhainiteAssassin said:


> And the Eldar are always a 'dieing' race, yes, but the DE are dieing, but not going extinct, if the DE did not kill themselves at every turn, they would be even more numerous then they are now. it is the DE that keep the DE in check, they are still, practically, immortal, and they breed, and use the haemonculi to revive their dead, and use their technology to breed faster. Its only their killing of eachother (and the poor that die on the battlefield) that keeps their population in check really with all of that.



Well there is something we agree on.


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

> Kill Sorcs as they are the only ones? Abby with TS guard. *Facepalm* OMG.


Well see he'd be in cc with Vect by then so unable to open one.



> You mean the outpost and backwater worlds they are famouse for raiding? Have you ever seen more than half a Chapter of SMs sent to deal with their petty raids?


This is where you fall behind in fluff, I know of several occasions where more than half a chapter has been sent. One such is in the DE codex, the Salamanders pour pretty much their entire fleet into Commoragh to rescue their CM or whatever and end up getting their asses brutally handed to them.



> Yeah and you and other DE fanatics have already shown lack of respect for ESTABLISH Chaos fluff. Like for instance Abby does not control IWs or WBs or NLs. Yet in the BL novels like Storm of Iron, Dark Creed, and Night Haunter clearly states that when Abby snaps his fingers for support all the Chaos Lords (specifically God Specific ones) heed his call. The Lords state themselves they will heed his call in fear of his wrath.


Saying this is either invalid or invalidates your previous argument, as you have already established that all the Chaos Lords that serve him do it at their own benefit or out of fear, not loyalty.


> Most of the Chaos Lords have no respect for Abby, just fear of not heeding him. The Warsmith worked for Abby in Storm of Iron becuase he had a hidden agenda to become a DP. The Exalted in Night Haunter had hoped to gain status by heeding Abby. Marduk and Erebus showed a strong dislike of the Warmaster, but fear his Legion too much to do anything about it. Its all becuase Abby is the baddest mofo in the EoT and has the backing of the largest Legion and Chaos Gods favore.





> What fluff do you really have, 20-30 pages of establish fluff from a Dex? I know all the BL books that have DE in it get their ass wooped. Its like arguing with statistics. They have a bad running.
> Also its contiounsly establish fluff in EVERY Eldar Dex of any type that the Eldar are a DYING race. Their Tech, seeing the futur, and use of the Webway is all that keeps them as a powerbase in the 40K universe. Where do you get this stuff.


This also I would deem invalid as it is a book entitled Black Library about the Black Legion. OF COURSE THEIR GOING TO KICK ASS! ITS ABOUT THEM! Same goes for all the SM fluff, Eldar fluff, and any other fluff. Thats the problem with fluff thats written about a race.



> Seriously 1 Chaos God wiped out the ENTIRE Eldar empire at its peak


The entire race, huh? So what are we arguing about now, then?



> and even the Necs tried (and so far failed) to make a dent on keeping the warp out of the Ctans galaxy


The only reason they failed was because of the Enslaver Plague and the mounting pressure of the Eldar/Old Ones.



> The small city of DE is a threat on equal terms?


First off, small? *sigh*
Second off, we already established that their priority/threat level for CONQUEST is small, but their danger level is extremely high. Ask the Salamanders


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

i missed those:

the BIRTH of a chaos god wiped out the Eldar Empire, yes, but that was mostly because the Eldar race was so depraved at that point, so much into their own desires, that all those emotions literally created said chaos god. And what do we know about the chaos gods? oh they are stronger when the masses are working at their peak? with the eldar being so depraved they literally spawned a god and the resulting explosion created the eye of terror and wiped out a good chunk of their homes. Slaanesh does not actually have that much power to use consciously, just at his birth the eldar were doing something seriously funky all over their empire.

also, commoragh is huge. the Codex describes it as such: it is to the LARGEST imperial hives, as a soaring mountain is to a mound of termites. now i dont know about you, but i am pretty sure there are imperial hives that span across a whole world, they can get pretty massive...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Cyleune said:


> So 13 failed crusades = total pwnage now?


Lets not start that again! As far as we know none of the Black Crusades were failures.

And also I believe _gen.ahab_ was talking about the threat posed by _Chaos_, not just by Abaddon's forces. Its an important differentiation.



Warlock in Training said:


> Once Again you show lack of CSM knowledge. Abby lead not even half of those. *facepalm*


Actually I believe the consensus is Abaddon has personally led 13 Black Crusades, but there has been _other_ Black Crusades led by various warlords and daemons.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Cyleune said:


> Well see he'd be in cc with Vect by then so unable to open one.
> 
> There are many ways other than a Sorceror to open the Warp Portal, Ahriman has set up mutiple runes that pretty much summon daemons the moment the SMs tripped it, thats in the GK dex. Sure leads me to belive you can set up many Warp Portals to activate.
> 
> ...


Yeah the same SMs that numbered little more or less than a 1000 vs ALL the DE. They whooped the DE ass and high tailed out of there after. If a couple hundred Companies of SMs can cause so much damage then the DE are boned if a Legion of thousands of Ships from Battle Barge to Strike Cruiser to Emperor Class ships carrying 100,000 CSMs, 10 times that in Cultist/Daemon, and Daemonic Titans to boot should make it to the Dark City in that same scenario. The Black Legion would PWN Vects race.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

sorry warlock, your referencing the fact the salamanders got into commorragh to get their ship and commander back right?

THAT was hardly ALL the DE, that was something that was COMPLETELY PLANNED BY VECT TO WIPE OUT SOMEONE WHO OPPOSED HIM.


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## Iraqiel (May 21, 2008)

Hahaha foolish Vect, you don't even know how to spell! Chaos will win this game of scrabble, and every game of scrabble your kind foolishly challenges us to in the future as well!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Again the only source where DE rock is in their Dex. Name a Black Library novel where they win or are more than a nusance. Name one.


Name a Black Library novel where the Dark Eldar are the protagonists. Name one. 

As I said before, this really is a weak argument _warlock_. Just because no Black Library novels have been released which focus on the Dark Eldar does not mean they are not capable of triumphing in wars and battles. A lot happens in the 40k universe that isn't covered in books and codicies after all...


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

> There are many ways other than a Sorceror to open the Warp Portal, Ahriman has set up mutiple runes that pretty much summon daemons the moment the SMs tripped it, thats in the GK dex. Sure leads me to belive you can set up many Warp Portals to activate.


As previously said, the DE would block warp access somehow. Either by having some kind of hunter-killer device to destroy warp-summons or a thing similar to the Necron pillar things.



> Again the only source where DE rock is in their Dex. Name a Black Library novel where they win or are more than a nusance. Name one.


Like CoTE said, name one where they are the protagonist.



> Where in my quotes did I contradict myself? Both said they answere to Abby out of fear. Are you reading my statements at all?


When I said this I was referring to how you stated that they are completely loyal to him, which is not true, as they only serve him out of fear or for their own benefit later on.




> Wow..... you dont know what Black Library is?


Unfortunately, I haven't read them. I know bits of it but have never read them, so you got me there.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Cyleune said:


> Unfortunately, I haven't read them. I know bits of it but have never read them, so you got me there.


Think he meant the Black Library, as in the library of all things related to Chaos which is guarded by a group of Harlequins and only a select few may enter.

The DE don't need anti-warp technology to beat/out maneuver Chaos Astartes/forces who are not known for their speed or maneuverability

People seem to forget every single Eldar is a psyker and they have some insane tech under their belt.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Name a Black Library novel where the Dark Eldar are the protagonists. Name one.
> 
> As I said before, this really is a weak argument _warlock_. Just because no Black Library novels have been released which focus on the Dark Eldar does not mean they are not capable of triumphing in wars and battles. A lot happens in the 40k universe that isn't covered in books and codicies after all...


Its not weak at all. There is little proof that DE are as awsome as alot "blindly" claim they are. Wheres the proof? They have a handful of stories in their dex where they rocked, every other source with them shows them struggling as it should be for a dying race. How can anyone dismiss this and simply say, "They're awsome, you just dont know cause its super secret..." Sure I just take your word they're badass on a galatic lvl. No proof needed. Even CSMs get their dues in Ultra Books. They're badass. 
Whatever, someone pitch it to GW about a DE story and see if they dont laugh at it. I read it, Its just going to end with SM chapter, Zoanthrope, or Forgeworld KoS that will decimate them singlehanded like they do to Craftworlds. Eldar get no respect. 



Cyleune said:


> As previously said, the DE would block warp access somehow. Either by having some kind of hunter-killer device to destroy warp-summons or a thing similar to the Necron pillar things.


They have shown devices that work on a Single Psyker but name or source any device they have that will shut down a large area. I can play this game too. 

Well Chaos have warp magic that breaks thru null zones ez. Then Warp portals open up that let out a 1000 KoS for the Win. Yeaaaa.

Seriously your just spewing what you belive they can do, rather than what they have shown or have. This is like arguing with a lawyer that comes up with whatever he wants to prove his case. Give me sources please. That way I can shut up and become smater for it.



Cyleune said:


> Like CoTE said, name one where they are the protagonist.


Who cares, Im just refrencing the material and Books that I have seen them in, and how well they did. One book in paticular had a whole Kabal fight a Host of Word Bearers, and the DE got spanked in every engagement. Dark Disciple. Thats the source.



Cyleune said:


> When I said this I was referring to how you stated that they are completely loyal to him, which is not true, as they only serve him out of fear or for their own benefit later on.


I never, EVER, said anywhere that they were loyal to him as you keep bringing up. Chaos is not loyal, it follows whoever has the bigger wacking stick, and Abby has the biggest wacking stick of anyone. 




Cyleune said:


> Unfortunately, I haven't read them. I know bits of it but have never read them, so you got me there.


OK, I was under the impression you had read the Novels. There great. Well, most are.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Think he meant the Black Library, as in the library of all things related to Chaos which is guarded by a group of Harlequins and only a select few may enter.
> 
> The DE don't need anti-warp technology to beat/out maneuver Chaos Astartes/forces who are not known for their speed or maneuverability
> 
> People seem to forget every single Eldar is a psyker and they have some insane tech under their belt.


I was meaning the Company Novels. 

Their Tech and tatics is speed. No doubts, thats the Eldars whole appeal. However the whole argument of Flash beating Doomsday cause he can run fast is a sad argument. Same here. Their fast but cant outrun, outride, or outdoge the firepower that Chaos can bring to bear. Hell unlike IG Chaos does move faster and are VERY use to lightning fast raids and abush tatics. More than half the time they are attacking and getting out of dodge before reprisal. Also all the forces of Abaddon operate well enoigh on company size lvls to act and react without Abby holding their hand. Makes it harder for DE rely on their Raid Tatics like they can on 1 super large sloth moving IG force. Now they have to fight 100s of Warbands making their own descisions on the battlefield while carrying Abby overall plan in mind. SMs are better than IG cause they are created for the quick reaction and attack/shock offensive. Big difference for the DE. Plus add in CSM is superior to a DE in physical terms. A DE = 10 IG. CSM = 5 DE. CSM can actually target and gun down speeding Reaver Jetbikes hauling ass like they did in Dark Disciple. What good is that speed? You cant outrun a Bolter Round.

Also Every Eldar is a Psyker just as much as is Every Human (other than Nulls) has a Psychic Presence, teeny small presence. The DE are not Psykers at all, its a threat to them to have Psykers roaming around, it says that in their new Dex. Craftworld Eldar with their Soulstones allow their Psy abilities to be used, not DE. So thats a Invalide argument.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> *Also Every Eldar is a Psyker just as much as is Every Human has a Psychic Presence, teeny small presence.*


http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warhammer_40,000

Start here bro


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> People seem to forget every single Eldar is a psyker.


"...the innate psychic abilities of their forebears have atrophied."

So essentially the Dark Eldar are no longer inherent psykers, and in fact the use of psychic abilities is one of the few things forbidden in Commorragh.



Warlock in Training said:


> Its not weak at all. There is little proof that DE are as awsome as alot "blindly" claim they are. Wheres the proof?


The proof is essentially every single source that has ever mentioned Dark Eldar. We are taking everything we know about the Dark Eldar and applying it to a hypothetical situation.



Warlock in Training said:


> Who cares, Im just refrencing the material and Books that I have seen them in, and how well they did. One book in paticular had a whole Kabal fight a Host of Word Bearers, and the DE got spanked in every engagement. Dark Disciple. Thats the source.


I don't mean to sound offensive, but you really don't seem to be getting this _Warlock._ The Dark Eldar lost in _Dark Disciple_? No shit, it was a Word Bearers novel, they essentially _had_ to lose. If they didn't, the Word Bearers series would have ended there and then. I guarentee when a Dark Eldar novel is released, they will annihilate everyone (in the novel), will that then change your mind? But this is neither here nor there, and just because Dark Eldar are not featured in many BL novels (and in none where they truly triumph) does not detract from their ability to triumph militarily.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> "...the innate psychic abilities of their forebears have atrophied."
> 
> So essentially the Dark Eldar are no longer inherent psykers, and in fact the use of psychic abilities is one of the few things forbidden in Commorragh.


_While their countless generations of conflict and internecine strife led the Dark Eldar to develop better reaction speed and greater overall physical strength than the other factions of the Eldar race, the innate psychic abilities of the Dark Eldar have atrophied. To channel the psychic energies of what is essentially Chaos within Commorragh would invite disaster, for the use of Warp energy would draw the attention of Slaanesh, She Who Thirsts, the eternal nemesis of the entire Eldar race. As a result, the use of psychic abilities or sorcery within the Dark City is one of the only activities truely forbidden to the Dark Eldar.
_
So they're physically stronger and faster than their cousins but their powers have weakened in comparison.

And they're banned from using their psychic abilities within their homeworld to hide their presence from Slaanesh which naturally due to a lack of use would make their skills weaker though I'm not sure about their raw talent.

I don't see how they aren't still potent psykers when they want to be, their very existence depends on draining raw psychic energy


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warhammer_40,000
> 
> Start here bro


I wouldnt bring out Fan Made made site as official. It helps for sure but in no way official... or even right in some ares.k:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> "...the innate psychic abilities of their forebears have atrophied."


That settles that. 




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> So essentially the Dark Eldar are no longer inherent psykers, and in fact the use of psychic abilities is one of the few things forbidden in Commorragh.



Yup....



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The proof is essentially every single source that has ever mentioned Dark Eldar. We are taking everything we know about the Dark Eldar and applying it to a hypothetical situation.



But that the thing, People are making claims that they can shut a area down from the warp, thats never been shown. I can say hypotheticaly that Chaos can inscribe runes that can break any device. Thats never been shown but why not? People are arguing with BS anyway. I feel like Im playing G. I. Joes again with my little cousins. "Oh yeah well I have a shrinked a bunch of nukes to micro size and put them in the air around me. I have a forcefield that keeps me from getting hurt.... I win." Thats how I see these claims of crap they havent shown to do is in these dicussions.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I don't mean to sound offensive, but you really don't seem to be getting this _Warlock._ The Dark Eldar lost in _Dark Disciple_? No shit, it was a Word Bearers novel, they essentially _had_ to lose. If they didn't, the Word Bearers series would have ended there and then. I guarentee when a Dark Eldar novel is released, they will annihilate everyone (in the novel), will that then change your mind? But this is neither here nor there, and just because Dark Eldar are not featured in many BL novels (and in none where they truly triumph) does not detract from their ability to triumph militarily.


They can win, Im just arguing with what Fluff has shown. So my desicion is steeped in why Abby wins over Vect. Can the DE win... maybe. Theres always a chance or scenario..... I just see Vect losing in more ways than he can win. As for the DE losing to WBs in their book is no less of a source for me to argue. The sad fact is they are stomped in that book. Chaos in the Ultras books have won engaements, like Honsou, and prevail. And SMs as well as Necron BEATEN WBs in THEIR books. So saying DE had to lose very time is utter BS. In the WB own books Necs and SM have won over them. DE loss every engagement in that book.


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

Codex: Eldar, pg 3
"All Eldar can manipulate mental energies to a degree..."

Codex: Dark Eldar, pg 5
"While countless generations of physical conflict have ensured the DE have better reaction speed and greater physical strength than other elements of the Eldar race, the innate pyschic abilities or their forebearers have atrophied. To channel the energies of the Warp inside Commoragh would be to invite disaster..."

Codex: Dark Eldar, pg 5
"In matters of war the Dark Eldar are artisans supreme..."

Codex: Dark Eldar, pg 5
"Their favourite tools of war include...eldritch soul-traps..."

Codex: Dark Eldar, pg 21
"The Battle of Thaxar Rift"
-So not only do they knock out an entire Exterminatus fleet, they're still powerful enough to seize an entire sector from Chaos.... yeah they don't stand a chance in space combat or anything...

Codex: Dark Eldar, pg 21
"Vect's Gift"
-Who needs mobility when you can just throw a black hole at your enemies and they're gone?



I know those statements sound terribly cliche after me stating that fluff about a race's efforts is extremely OP, but I figured since everyone else is buffing their side I might as well too.




> They have shown devices that work on a Single Psyker but name or source any device they have that will shut down a large area. I can play this game too.


"Lastly, the Dark Eldar, while not having any known psykers among their ranks, have developed weapons designed for psyker destruction. One of the most gruesome (and rare) is the Crucible of Malediction, a nightmarish device which contains the essence of a slain psyker tortured into insanity. When the Dark Eldar use this weapon, the psykers tormented soul is released and its power has the potential to consume any psyker on the battlefield.



> Who cares, Im just refrencing the material and Books that I have seen them in, and how well they did. One book in paticular had a whole Kabal fight a Host of Word Bearers, and the DE got spanked in every engagement. Dark Disciple. Thats the source.


Who cares? Again, fluff supports it's side. If there was a book on DE, they'd kick ass too.




> Their fast but cant outrun, outride, or outdoge the firepower that Chaos can bring to bear.


Your assuming they rely cheifly on speed to crush opponents, which isn't the case. If your chaos warband brings in a big badass nuke, that's the first thing the DE are going to take down, and it'll be by a surprise strike that you won't even see coming.




> Hell unlike IG Chaos does move faster and are VERY use to lightning fast raids and abush tatics. More than half the time they are attacking and getting out of dodge before reprisal.


I never said they couldn't, but the DE are better at it. It IS their main tactic to raid, after all.




> Plus add in CSM is superior to a DE in physical terms. A DE = 10 IG. CSM = 5 DE.


Really? 1 CSM facing off against 5 DE? With the weaponry that EVERY DE carries? I don't think so. Even if you take all tech away and have them fight naked, the SM wouldn't be able to lay a hand on the DE.




> CSM can actually target and gun down speeding Reaver Jetbikes hauling ass like they did in Dark Disciple. What good is that speed? You cant outrun a Bolter Round.


*Facepalm*
The advantage of having mobility isn't that you can fly around aimlessly, a grenade traveling at almost mach 2 will get you no matter who you are, they advantage of it is that you can strike first and leave without too much trouble if you do it right, which is what the DE excel at.




> Also Every Eldar is a Psyker just as much as is Every Human (other than Nulls) has a Psychic Presence, teeny small presence. The DE are not Psykers at all, its a threat to them to have Psykers roaming around, it says that in their new Dex. Craftworld Eldar with their Soulstones allow their Psy abilities to be used, not DE. So thats a Invalide argument.


DE can't have psykers because it's dangerous.
Soulstones don't allow Psychic abilities to be used, nor do they enhance them. The only use of a Soulstone is so that your soul doesn't go to Slaanesh when you die. ALL Eldar can use psychic abilities, but more are more attuned, depending on your aspect.



> But that the thing, People are making claims that they can shut a area down from the warp, thats never been shown. I can say hypotheticaly that Chaos can inscribe runes that can break any device. Thats never been shown but why not? People are arguing with BS anyway. I feel like Im playing G. I. Joes again with my little cousins. "Oh yeah well I have a shrinked a bunch of nukes to micro size and put them in the air around me. I have a forcefield that keeps me from getting hurt.... I win." Thats how I see these claims of crap they havent shown to do is in these dicussions.


But that's what fluff is. It's just hypothetical, and the armies only use whats best for the scenario and what they have legit access to. Just because there's no situation where it's used doesn't mean it's not out there. It's like the Cold War all over again.
And on the first part, they do. If the Necrons could do it millions of years before this, then the Eldar can do it now. Plus my above quote proves this.



> They can win, Im just arguing with what Fluff has shown. So my desicion is steeped in why Abby wins over Vect. Can the DE win... maybe. Theres always a chance or scenario..... I just see Vect losing in more ways than he can win. As for the DE losing to WBs in their book is no less of a source for me to argue. The sad fact is they are stomped in that book. Chaos in the Ultras books have won engaements, like Honsou, and prevail. And SMs as well as Necron BEATEN WBs in THEIR books. So saying DE had to lose very time is utter BS. In the WB own books Necs and SM have won over them. DE loss every engagement in that book.Ballistics Skill (p6 p18 40k 5th)


How large were those engagements and how many times did the SM/Necron/whoever win? It's to show that the specific army is NOT invincible and that it can be beat. BUT the overwhelming majority of any race-specific fluff will be pro-that race.



Also, stop bashing on IG Manueverability, unless you wanna talk Blitzkrieg. I don't know if you've ever played a good blitz IG list, but you should try playing one before you talk smack about it.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

sorry, I just have to say, about your whole "Stop talking smack" IG are slow. This is fluff. Their slow. Their own codex says they are slow moving. 

Ever faced a all foot troop DE army? Well, it's slow. therefore DE are slow. So there.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Cyleune said:


> Codex: Eldar, pg 3
> "All Eldar can manipulate mental energies to a degree..."


Yeah, to a degree, like sensing someones watching them, or lifting a pencil with your mind... oooooooo....



Cyleune said:


> Codex: Dark Eldar, pg 5
> "While countless generations of physical conflict have ensured the DE have better reaction speed and greater physical strength than other elements of the Eldar race, the innate pyschic abilities or their forebearers have atrophied. To channel the energies of the Warp inside Commoragh would be to invite disaster..."


Yeah their physicaly better than Craftworld Eldar, instead of lifting 120 they can lift 180. Big deal.




Cyleune said:


> Codex: Dark Eldar, pg 5
> "In matters of war the Dark Eldar are artisans supreme..."


Yeah so are Necs, SMs, CSMs, Tau, and any other codex thats selling them....



Cyleune said:


> Codex: Dark Eldar, pg 5
> "Their favourite tools of war include...eldritch soul-traps..."


Soul Traps... thats all they got? KoS devoures souls with swings of its blades. Thats nothing.



Cyleune said:


> Codex: Dark Eldar, pg 21
> "The Battle of Thaxar Rift"
> -So not only do they knock out an entire Exterminatus fleet, they're still powerful enough to seize an entire sector from Chaos.... yeah they don't stand a chance in space combat or anything...


Not Against a couple of Black Stone Fortresses and Abaddon Planet Destroyer. Hell Typhus in the Terminous Est and his Plague Fleet could pwn them with all the Warp Plagues that they spew. 



Cyleune said:


> Codex: Dark Eldar, pg 21
> "Vect's Gift"
> -Who needs mobility when you can just throw a black hole at your enemies and they're gone?


Anyone with a Vortex Gernade can do that. 




Cyleune said:


> know those statements sound terribly cliche after me stating that fluff about a race's efforts is extremely OP, but I figured since everyone else is buffing their side I might as well too.


Everything you brought for DE is done as well if not better by Chaos.



Cyleune said:


> "Lastly, the Dark Eldar, while not having any known psykers among their ranks, have developed weapons designed for psyker destruction. One of the most gruesome (and rare) is the Crucible of Malediction, a nightmarish device which contains the essence of a slain psyker tortured into insanity. When the Dark Eldar use this weapon, the psykers tormented soul is released and its power has the potential to consume any psyker on the battlefield.


Key word "potential" not gauranteed. Also TS and Daemons arnt Psykers... they just cast power. Nothing short of a Nulls like SoS in a Thousand Sons or that stupid Necron Device in WBs novels will shut the warp out in a large area.



Cyleune said:


> Who cares? Again, fluff supports it's side. If there was a book on DE, they'd kick ass too.


Why isnt there? I mean their is TONS of CSM books... and their the whiped children for SM novels... and they Kick Ass in SM novels as well! Is it Bias on part of BL? Or is it the general thought is DE are not the super threat in 40k.



Cyleune said:


> Your assuming they rely cheifly on speed to crush opponents, which isn't the case. If your chaos warband brings in a big badass nuke, that's the first thing the DE are going to take down, and it'll be by a surprise strike that you won't even see coming.


I love how you blatantly suggest Choas cant predict DE will make a attack at their best gear. Thats General 101. 
1) TS sorcerors like Ahriman can predict enemy movement or plans for Abaddon. Hell in Night Haunter has a guy who just happen to share his Konrads ability to see the important futur events.
2) The Big Guns would be heavly protected, not open for a raid to make short work of, thats just silly and bad leadership. These guys arnt Orks!
3) By my post I was suggesting how Bolter Rounds and kill DE and their Open Top Raider Drivers no matter how fast they're moving. Not even mentiong the Chaos Big Guns.



Cyleune said:


> I never said they couldn't, but the DE are better at it. It IS their main tactic to raid, after all.


I pit Alpha Legionairs ANYDAY against DE at their own tricks. Shit in the Soul Drinker book 3 (Crimson Tears I belive) had the Scouts, not even full fledge Marines, spotting the Wyches and DE before their attacks on IG. They were vastly impress but they had the skills as SM Scouts to spot them and their tricks.



Cyleune said:


> Really? 1 CSM facing off against 5 DE? With the weaponry that EVERY DE carries? I don't think so. Even if you take all tech away and have them fight naked, the SM wouldn't be able to lay a hand on the DE.


Really, 5 Warriors can butt stroke.. (that sounds so wrong).... a CSM in PA fighting back? I dont think so, from a fluff point Movie Marines are really more like 20 Eldar to 1 Marine.




Cyleune said:


> *Facepalm*
> The advantage of having mobility isn't that you can fly around aimlessly, a grenade traveling at almost mach 2 will get you no matter who you are, they advantage of it is that you can strike first and leave without too much trouble if you do it right, which is what the DE excel at.


Against a unkowing foe. Ambushes work wonders, but I highly doubt Abaddons forces will be in a Ambush scenario everytime. Unless its a completly Bias fight.



Cyleune said:


> DE can't have psykers because it's dangerous.
> Soulstones don't allow Psychic abilities to be used, nor do they enhance them. The only use of a Soulstone is so that your soul doesn't go to Slaanesh when you die. ALL Eldar can use psychic abilities, but more are more attuned, depending on your aspect.


You miss the point. The CWE (craftworld eldar) wear soulstones and that protects them along with the Matrix of their Craftworld. They can embrace Psypowers cause they have Protection from the warp. Thank you Runes. DE have NO protection and thus cant afford to use their Psy powers. thus their Psy potential is nearly non exsistant. I read in your Dex just a little while ago that they cant even use their psy powers to warp Wraith Bone like the CWE cousins. They have no use for their psy power and it dwindle like a mucsle from lack of use... it says it in your freaken dex.



Cyleune said:


> But that's what fluff is. It's just hypothetical, and the armies only use whats best for the scenario and what they have legit access to. Just because there's no situation where it's used doesn't mean it's not out there. It's like the Cold War all over again.
> And on the first part, they do. If the Necrons could do it millions of years before this, then the Eldar can do it now. Plus my above quote proves this.


Thats jsut it again. You just said I can pull BS cause nowhere does it says I cant. Sorry in a discussion your suppose to bring facts and sources to "prove" your claims rather spewing anything your own imagination comes up with. Unfortunatly DE have very few sources. Is it fair, probaly not.



Cyleune said:


> How large were those engagements and how many times did the SM/Necron/whoever win? It's to show that the specific army is NOT invincible and that it can be beat. BUT the overwhelming majority of any race-specific fluff will be pro-that race.


Yet DE got their asses handed to them in every fluff. Its statiscaly shown to me that other races win even when there the badguys or not Pro Race... but Tau and DE seem to lose hard.



Cyleune said:


> Also, stop bashing on IG Manueverability, unless you wanna talk Blitzkrieg. I don't know if you've ever played a good blitz IG list, but you should try playing one before you talk smack about it.


*facepalm* Is this the fluff forum? Not the Tatic Forum? Right then, IG are SLOW moving machine in the Fluff. Thats what they are suppose to be. SMs are the Fast hitting special forces. Charlie your on!


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