# New Space Wolves...Too Powerful?



## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

After Looking at many space wolf armies, hearing their rules and seeing their special characters, Are space wolves a little to powerful? Im begining to lose faith in a game where each army book just trumps the ones that came out before it, thus making a whole new wave of players flock to that one army, this isnt always the case of course, If you can beat power gamers with DH, necrons
other "Low Tier" armies, Than more power to you! Im not saying Im a noob its just annoying when I continually see such powerful armies coming out, and Im Like, Great one more reason not to go to tournements with my CSM. 

What do you Wise Heretics Have to say on the Subject?


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## Dar'kir (Jul 11, 2009)

i think it always seems that every new army seems to be too powerful when they are 1st released. when the CSM codex came out i remember alot of non CSM players crying about how powerful the army was... soon enough someone is gonna find the huge kink in hte armour of this superpowerful new army. give it time, soon enough we ll all find the flaws.


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## Deneris (Jul 23, 2008)

As long as my AP3 boltguns can still mow them down, I'm not overly worried about these degenerate Sons of Russ... :wink:


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## Underground Heretic (Aug 9, 2008)

I would say that some armies require more finesse and calculation to play then others, but, if run properly, every army is powerful.

A friend of mine has said that DE are underpowered by virtue of half their wargear having no effect. I argue they have access to some of the cheapest and fastest anti-vehicle units in the game. Until recently, my Tau were getting wiped from stem to stern and then I got used to what worked and what didn't and I've been putting up good games against players many years my senior.

Know your enemy, know yourself.


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## rokar4life (Jun 21, 2008)

Deneris said:


> As long as my AP3 boltguns can still mow them down, I'm not overly worried about these degenerate Sons of Russ... :wink:


/hug


stupid filler text, not working... mumble... -id site.. grumble


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Not really. You've got to balance the forces right - and much of their most powerful combinations are reserved for 3K+ (see my space wolf army list and Old Hats 2.5K Terminator list), and even then, they're expensive.

Many things seem OMG SHINY - Thunderwolf Cavalry, for example. S5? 4 Attacks? Rending? But then you see T5, 2 Wounds, 3+ Armour Save. They're Veterans on Attack bikes, just tougher versus Krak Missiles, and can't take any decent ranged attack (15 point plasma pistols? fuck off)

Saga's - The ability to give your Wolf Lord Eternal Warrior, Runic Armour and a Storm Shield for 185points seems reasonably cheap - especially with 4 attacks. But that's with no weapon. Give them anything half way decent (Wolf Claw, Frost Blade etc), and any extra upgrades (Melta bombs, Wolf Tooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman, Thunderwolf Mount, etc), you're rising to the high 200's.

Basically, it's what Space Marines aspires to be, just that you can no longer have a 20 man strong blob of Terminators with 6 Cyclone Missile Launchers/Assault Cannons in a squad.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yes

At least they are too powerful for me: mine are getting traded.

Sure the talks of the shiny and the new units are dominant but personally I always think it comes back to troops: blood claws may have taken a bit of a hit but grey hunters are now uber powerful. 185pts for 10 in a rhino (with 2 free flamers)- if we think of most players idea of a nightmare: 30 boyz coming straight at them. GH are guarenteed to be able to at least 1 round of close range bolter fire in (they have a rhino) and so long as the orks havent got a nob actually should beat them (at least in the first round)- having any special weapons/nob would push the orks pts cost way beond the price of GH.
...
That doesnt sound like much but in effect its HUGE: a marine army that relies on long range firepower working in conjunction to close range nastiness and combat can hold off one of the nastiest troops units from one of the nastiest lists out there without any sort of tactical intelligence at all.


Personally Ive already been called beardy 3 times in the last week... I havent even played a game with the new rules yet though (though I have worked out that my basic 2k army has lost ~70pts from its cost, not counting equipment I had to remove)


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## Gobbo (Jun 4, 2008)

To be honest I dont think the wolves dex is that powerful,sure they get counter attack and two special weps per tactical squad, but they lose the heavy wep, their heroes are expensive as hell (logan, njall and bjork are the same price as abaddon :|) their all like leadership 8, and alot of the wargear is pretty expensive.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

As a DE player it is my duty to find out the weak point in an army and exploit it, as everyone has said they are hugely expensive and have quite a few weaknesses already.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

I wish I could look at it, then I could find a flaw.
But from what I've heard so far everything = good at everything, HQ = overpriced, infantry = tactically unflexible but good all-round.


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## zealotic (Oct 11, 2008)

As far as I can tell the Space Wolves have moved toward a character or two with an army behind them as opposed to an army with a character in it. Kill the big character and you've remarkably reduced the hitting power of the army. Because without those characters he's just got an undermanned army without any shock and awe to it.

Well thats the way to kill my character heavy guard army anyway.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Gobbo said:


> To be honest I dont think the wolves dex is that powerful,sure they get counter attack and two special weps per tactical squad, but they lose the heavy wep


That's not such a bad thing. Long Fangs are cheap as chips Heavy Bolters, and costs just 215pts for 5 Lascannons which can fire at 2 different targets, whereas 4 Lascannon Devastator squad is 230, and that's without PFist Sergeant etc.

You don't need Heavy Weapons when you drive by Melta-gun armour from the top of a Rhino and las cannon anything that looks remotely heftier than a Grot.

The Infantry isn't exactly tactically inflexible, they're just like Marines - they require one job to excel at.

The most disappointing section is Fast Attack and Elites - they have thunderwolves, which are vanguard on steroids, but still leave the tip at the table, and bikers which aren't exactly good. 

I'd much prefer a Command Squad, and normal Terminators, and then they would be powerful - especially considering that it's 60 odd points for TH/SS Terminator - Stubborn and Counter Attack doesn't make them 20 points more than basic.

It's a whole new playing style, and I'm loving how they work at the moment.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Good at everything, tactically flexible army with cheap heavy fire support, characters can be very expensive but dont need to be.

Basically it really isnt a good idea to try to out muscle a SW army... however they keep their age old weakness: attack their Ld and you should do well. Pinning weapons, nuke choirs or just relying on 25% casualities (and trying to guide units off the table) will still be good tactics
- if the wolves happen to take Bjorn and you get jammy enough to kill him then the remaining SWs are going to be a nightmare to kill- fearless SW are just gonna be incredible.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Theres no point complaining, GW doesn't give a shit what you think at the end of it all.

If every new codex has to trump every older codex, then fine. Let them be that way.

Remember that at its core, 40K is a game of chance. Every player, no matter how good they are, will lose if the dice are against them.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

nope, powerful yes, cheesy powerful not at all, if you see some OTT cheesy combinations on the board, its the person who takes them whos to blame, not the codex.

no codex is ever overpowered, broken, cheesy or whatever, only the person playing is broken or overpowered.


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## TAUfanatic (Jun 7, 2008)

you want a flaw in the new space wolves?

HIGHLY EXPENSIVE UNITS AND RIDICULOUSLY LOW NUMBERS

they can be easily outnumbered I say,and just keep pumping lead into them,works for me :wink:


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## Jiaf (Jun 26, 2009)

TAUfanatic said:


> you want a flaw in the new space wolves?
> 
> HIGHLY EXPENSIVE UNITS AND RIDICULOUSLY LOW NUMBERS
> 
> they can be easily outnumbered I say,and just keep pumping lead into them,works for me :wink:


What do you mean? As far as I've learned (haven't seen the actual codex yet so please correct me if I'm wrong) units are cheaper than the vanilla marines. The named HQ's might be a bit more expensive but they're well worth the points.

You're talking about vehicles then or what?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

You can make them expensive, if you wish. I've got a 62 model 3K Vanilla Marine list, and a 3K Space Wolf list planned, and currently (new codex-itis aside), it's doing far better, and has 84 Men in just it's troops - all models told it's 102 strong. You keep trying to pump lead into them - not much can wipe out 102 models with a 3+ Save.


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## Shadow Hawk (Apr 26, 2009)

Slightly I think.
I haven't yet got to take a look at it, but from what I've read they seem quite powerful but the HQ can get 200+ pts so seem also quite expensive.
GW give a slight edge to the latest codex to attract all the power gamers but the change isn't so much different.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

People keep making the 16 models in 2k type SW lists.. and that is perfectly possible. Decent armies are going to be crawling with men- my current fav 2k list has 49 troops in it. Sure the blood claws would get more expensive but with the massive drop in GH cost I can actually get MORE in that list with the new dex rather then less... personally I would be tempted by 6*10 grey hunters in drop pods/rhinos (at <1200pts basic) that is a seriously nasty core for any army, 60 T4 models with 3+ saves is probably most peoples idea of a nightmare.. and still leaves 800pts for the fun stuff.


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## Concrete Hero (Jun 9, 2008)

Cheese is just a word. A word used by the unprepared 

I've had quite a lot of time to gloss over the Codex and I don't think its overly powerful, Guard are still top in my mind.


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## DarKKKKK (Feb 22, 2008)

So far, I dont think overpowered, but every army will seem that way for awhile until as everyone has said, what are the kinks. So far the obvious one is the HQ costs, they are all very expensive. Although how long will it take the either find the one worth its cost, or find the combination of lower costing HQs that maybe better? Its all about making everything cost-effective for SW at this time.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

I DO like my nuke choir, that should be fun.
Unfortunately, my Hormagaunts (expensive beasties) are going to be USELESS against these guys.
Sure they'll do the same amount of damage, but they will NEVER win the combat, thus making their primary purpose (sweeping advance) not work.

Remembering that to use Counter-Attack you need to pass a Ld test, which will never happen with 3 Psychic Screamers around, they still have 2 attacks each.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

I think that their heroes, while cost lots of points, are way more cost-effective. Someone said that one hero costs as much as Abaddon. Thats the only thing they have in common, the point cost. Those guys are much more useful IMHO than Failure Clad In Terminator Armour.

I'm not saying that the whole Codex is overpowered, only certain units and abilities. I can't remember all their names but heres what I have in mind.

Bjorn: send him forward, get him killed and there you go, Fearless Marines. He does become an objective but that shouldn't be a problem for the more cunning players.

Stormcaller: have this guy DS anywhere and by the time he arrives lightning bolts will keep rippin into your opponents. Oh, and thats not a Psychic effect so theres no protection against it. You can of course try kill the guy, but any SW player with an IQ of 90-100 will keep him well protected. Not that useful in short games, but I can see him rock in longer battles. Especially in Apocalypse, given he doesn't get killed by something ridiculously big. Like DSing Carnifexes.

Jaws of the World Wolf: 24 inches of death for everyone except the Eldar and the Dark Eldar that doesn't care if your Carnifex is behind a huge mountain: that Carnifex is going to get killed by the most ridiculous spell in existence. Its also useful against the Hidden Fist technique of Ork Mobz: you target the Nob with the Power Klaw and if he fails the Initiative test then hes fucked, no matter how many Boyz he has who could die in his stead. Though the wording of the spell isn't too accurate, since it doesn't mention Bikes, Jetbikes and Jump Infantry, and I don't remember if it affects vehicles to any extent. And it may be that you can take only one Runepriest but that guy won't die in Turn 1, especially if the Wolves come first.

But the most ridiculous part is that SWs hate sorcery in all its forms and here you go, a ridiculously powerful spell that goes beyond any spells anyone has. I mean theres the Lord of Change with a few useful spells but not ONE that would be even COMPARABLE to this. I could accept this spell from a special character in a book in one big dramatic scene, but not on an average battlefield occuring every few minutes or so.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Khorothis said:


> Jaws of the World Wolf: 24 inches of death for everyone except the Eldar and the Dark Eldar that doesn't care if your Carnifex is behind a huge mountain: that Carnifex is going to get killed by the most ridiculous spell in existence. Its also useful against the Hidden Fist technique of Ork Mobz: you target the Nob with the Power Klaw and if he fails the Initiative test then hes fucked, no matter how many Boyz he has who could die in his stead. Though the wording of the spell isn't too accurate, since it doesn't mention Bikes, Jetbikes and Jump Infantry, and I don't remember if it affects vehicles to any extent. And it may be that you can take only one Runepries


Wait what??
What does it do?


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

24" line from teh rune priest, everything on that line takes an I test or DIES (no saves, no wound allocation, no multiwounds... just plain dead). MCs get I+1


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> 24" line from teh rune priest, everything on that line takes an I test or DIES (no saves, no wound allocation, no multiwounds... just plain dead). MCs get I+1


I think it's safe to assume it's MODELS, not units (that would just be ridiculous!)
Is it Instant Death or removed from the table?
If it ignores Instant Death, then I think GW is doing cocaine...


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## Jiaf (Jun 26, 2009)

Winterous said:


> I think it's safe to assume it's MODELS, not units (that would just be ridiculous!)
> Is it Instant Death or removed from the table?
> If it ignores Instant Death, then I think GW is doing cocaine...


Its not instant death, the models are just removed from the table.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Winterous said:


> I think it's safe to assume it's MODELS, not units (that would just be ridiculous!)
> Is it Instant Death or removed from the table?
> If it ignores Instant Death, then I think GW is doing cocaine...


Its the actual models under the line (so cant be allocated elsewhere), its removed from play (so EW doesnt help.. can kill Marneus, Abadon, fexs, C'Tan instantly.. no way to avoid it except not failing the I test).

Have you read the thread title? There's a reason people think SW are way too strong.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Removes from Play.

If you're too dense to space your units properly, you really shouldn't be playing warhammer. If your units are tightly packed, then you're asking for Flaming, or Templates. The fact that because you must pass a Initiative test (pretty much all IC's have at least 66% chance in passing one - how's that different from a Space Marine Captain with Storm Shield versus a Demolisher Cannon?), and it ignores Eternal Warrior, everyone's up in arms.

So, let me get this right, people are crying over a Psychic Power, which has a 8.5% chance of not even working, then combined with an IC or Monstrous creature's Initiative, meaning that it has only a 33% chance of succeeding, you're looking at roughly a rough 30% chance of loosing an important model, maybe two less important ones.

Not to mention things such as Psychic Hoods, Hexagrammic Wards, Sisters Faith, etc, and it's still something to cry about?

The only MC's I know of that need to worry of GUO's, and Carnifexes, and only Carnifexes are the ones I know that are taken regularly.

That power's not exactly fantastic - Murderous Hurricane + Nearby Blood Claws = nasty. Freki and Geri - a Psychic Attack that is Assault 2 S4 AP2, and, Assault 3 S4 AP-, causing morale checks, at BS5. Storm Caller - 5+ Cover for all units nearby. Living Lightning - A S7 AP5 Assault D6 Attack with no limit to range, and thunderclap, which is a bit like a shit Holocaust. Not to mention the power of runic weapons - Poisoned 2+ against Daemons, and is a force weapon.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Removes from Play.
> 
> If you're too dense to space your units properly, you really shouldn't be playing warhammer. If your units are tightly packed, then you're asking for Flaming, or Templates. The fact that because you must pass a Initiative test (pretty much all IC's have at least 66% chance in passing one - how's that different from a Space Marine Captain with Storm Shield versus a Demolisher Cannon?), and it ignores Eternal Warrior, everyone's up in arms.
> 
> ...


I don't have it, so I don't know it completely.
Is it very expensive?
Or are the priest dudes low Ld or something?

I just think it's ridiculous that it REMOVES them.
If it Instant Death'd, or failing that caused D6 wounds, that would be FINE, but it's a bit extreme I think.
Your average Carnifex doesn't bother taking +1I, so that's a 2/3 chance he'll drop dead from it!

Against troops it really isn't that good, I'd actually consider it worse than a Heavy Flamer against most things (terminators excluded), but the fact that it can easily kill monsters is strange.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yup, playing against tyranids it should be easy to get 2 fexs a turn hit by Jaws... a 100pt model that is *expected* to kill 1+ fex a turn no matter what upgrades they have is just wrong.
He is Ld 10, so will normally get the powers off (nice to no longer be the only marine psycher at Ld9).

In general open play it wont be overpowered... but occasionally being able to massacre fex or if someone takes Ku'gath against you (should be about the hardest thing in the game to kill). By the time you add other factors into Jaws it'll be nasty- tank shocking the enemy into a tight formation, or lining up to get multiple nasty enemies under the line (eg getting a SM sgt, captain and chaplain all under the effects should be nasty; 1 should fail- if you are in a rhino it shouldnt be hard to get on a line with 2 enemy HQs, especially if you are close to 1 of them).


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Yeah, I'm crying because a lousy 100 point drunken wolf-molesting barbarian can insta-gib nearly anything in a 24 inch line by "imploring the spirit of the world to open its rock fanged maw" *even on a fucking Daemon World*. So childish and ridiculous of me.
I'm not crying because I'm affected; my Termies will be somewhere dangerously close to his units (yes, this spell has friendly fire, thank goodness), my DP is a jump infantry so hes no affected (though hes also a MC so WTF) and my Marines don't mind a few dead guys (I wonder if its actually worth it to fire at these guys with JotWW), though if my Melta guys go down I will raise an eyebrow. 
I'm crying because other players who rely heavily on big mean units with lower Initiative are knee-deep in shit because, as Winterous put it, GW is on cocaine.

And its far more likely to happen than you think.

The Rune Priest has an Ld of 10 in the new Codex, most units have I3-4, maybe 5 if we're talking about special characters and most HQ choices, which means death on 4+, or even worse, on 3+, and BTW 6 is ALWAYS a failure. Yeah, very unlikely to happen. Lets see who have low(er) initiative and high threat level: Canoness, GKs (and any Marines in general), Bloodcrushers, GUO, Epidemius (bye-bye Tally), Carnifexes, Zoanthropes, Warriors, Wraithguard/-lord, Orks (all of them; bye-bye Ghazkull), Tau (excluding Kroot Hounds and Vespid, but they're irrelevant), Necron Lord (well, most Necrons) and even the Nightbringer goes down on a 5+! I can already hear SW players saying "OH HAI I NOMED UR C'TAN" or "BRB NOMING FEXES".

Before anyone comes up with stuff like "Oh yeah? My C'tan just got turned into a Chaos Spawn by your Chaos Sorcerer so STFU": that Sorcerer had spent 30 points on that crappy spell plus his only free spell slot, whereas a Rune Priest bought it for _free_ and he can have _another free spell without spending a single point_. Also, Gift of Chaos is 6", JotWW is 24" and ignores line of sight and terrain all together. And GoC blowing your C'tan away is so unlikely that no sane player would ever consider it. I know that this is just one example of a crappy spell having a ridiculous result, but JotWW is ridiculous at its core and can be plain outrageous under the right and honestly not too unlikely circumstances.

Yeah, this is nothing to cry about. I'll even buy a beer for the SW player and tell him how bad it is that their Codex just got worse than everyone else's and give him a handful of handkerchiefs if he bursts out in tears.


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## Jiaf (Jun 26, 2009)

Khorothis said:


> Yeah, I'm crying because a lousy 100 point drunken wolf-molesting barbarian can insta-gib nearly anything in a 24 inch line by "imploring the spirit of the world to open its rock fanged maw" *even on a fucking Daemon World*. So childish and ridiculous of me.
> I'm not crying because I'm affected; my Termies will be somewhere dangerously close to his units (yes, this spell has friendly fire, thank goodness), my DP is a jump infantry so hes no affected (though hes also a MC so WTF) and my Marines don't mind a few dead guys (I wonder if its actually worth it to fire at these guys with JotWW), though if my Melta guys go down I will raise an eyebrow.
> I'm crying because other players who rely heavily on big mean units with lower Initiative are knee-deep in shit because, as Winterous put it, GW is on cocaine.
> 
> ...


Not to forget that JotWW is probably the best sniping ability in game. Special Weapons, Icon Bearers, Hidden Fists ect won't be safe. 

Oh and this spell isn't the only funny thing in the new dex.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Jiaf said:


> Not to forget that JotWW is probably the best sniping ability in game. Special Weapons, Icon Bearers, Hidden Fists ect won't be safe.
> 
> Oh and this spell isn't the only funny thing in the new dex.


Agreed. I don't think I'll play with SW people without me having at least two Terminator squads Deep Striking at their Runepriest. Though I'm still fucked if he Deep Strikes that piece of imba shit.

Yeah, you could just post the whole Codex and you would rage every 3-4 pages or so. Not always because of imba stuff but because the "fluff" bits are sooo ridiculuous and mary sue that you can't help but be out of your mind. Seriously, the Angry Marine Codex is not so overpowered (if memory serves)... And even then the fatguys were only kidding...


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## KarlFranz40k (Jan 30, 2009)

That is retarded, I'd put that power with Lash in terms of sheer cheese. Although I'll admitt that Lash is probably more effective overall, it shouldnt be so easy to kill big stuff like that.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I wonder why people are crying about hw old tactics no longer work with new armies?

Damn... my Nidzilla which owned all other armies no longer owns all others, waaahhh. If you have a 6x4 table top, and you fail to spot that two Carnifexes are next to each other in a line less than 24" away from each other, while fighting space wolves, well bully to you.

Bear in mind that it also effects friendly models, so get your units in combat.

Note that it ONLY effects MC's, Beasts, Cavalry, Bikes and Infantry, so Jetbikes and Jump Infantry aren't effected by it.


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## qwertywraith (Sep 8, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Note that it ONLY effects MC's, Beasts, Cavalry, Bikes and Infantry, so Jetbikes and Jump Infantry aren't effected by it.


It's good to know it only effects most units in the game. At least Nid Gargoyles are safe.

While the range of the power isn't great, it's long enough (especially since it doesn't need LoS) and ignores normal targetting restrictions. Even if you only target an enemy HQ with a 1 in 6 chance to kill it's worth it to try. Even if not you should be able to line up a few models in a line, and the potential for devastation is just gross since it bypasses all the usual tests. A roll to hit is replaced by an LD check, to wound roll exchanged for the Initiative check and that's it, no save, not even consideration for extra wounds.



> So, let me get this right, people are crying over a Psychic Power, which has a 8.5% chance of not even working, then combined with an IC or Monstrous creature's Initiative, meaning that it has only a 33% chance of succeeding, you're looking at roughly a rough 30% chance of loosing an important model, maybe two less important ones.


OK so 3 out of 36 times the power doesn't work. This is essentially the "roll to hit". Now assuming I4 you can avoid the power 2 out of every 3 times. So, assuming you use it against a single I4 opponent 360 times you will kill it 110 times (30.5%). Against I3 it's 45.8%, and I2 61.1%. 

Meanwhile, assuming BS5, S4, vs T4, 3+ saves means you kill 50 guys every 360 times you shoot (13.9%).

Now, that's not very impressive, but consider that your odds of killing a character with I5, 3 wounds, 3+/4++, eternal warrior are 15.3%. That's a little worse than a 1/6. There is no other weapon in the game that comes close to this with a 24" range AND that can hit multiple models. Yes you have to space your models out in 40K, but units do have to maintain coherency, and do have bases. Also, _tank shock._

Psychic defences are great for the armies that have them. I'd still use this power to try and vaporise an enemy farseer regardless of his defences.

The power really seems to say "Hey if you're playing 40K you should mechanize? Oh, you play Nids, Necrons or Daemons? What's wrong with you? Have you considered playing Space Marines?"


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## Jiaf (Jun 26, 2009)

Vaz said:


> I wonder why people are crying about hw old tactics no longer work with new armies?
> 
> Damn... my Nidzilla which owned all other armies no longer owns all others, waaahhh. If you have a 6x4 table top, and you fail to spot that two Carnifexes are next to each other in a line less than 24" away from each other, while fighting space wolves, well bully to you.
> 
> ...


Yeah its kinda nice to know that the only "tactics" to avoid getting instagibbed by a wolf player is to change my whole army.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Woahh Nelly, Lots of opinions flying around here! But Seriously, I think that in many cases, they are quite powerful, having seen how expensive some of their units are, I can concede that they are not "broken" However I will go so far as to say, they are probably the most powerful army to date, and seeing that rune-priest ability, I fear my CSM will take a turn to slaanesh.... Im Dreading seeing necrons/SOB/ DH redone now, I really dont want to have some giant necron transformer trying to eat my chaos lord...


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

The Die Gods care not for your statistics. If they want you dead you will be. Thats a fact and you know it.

Lets nail down the facts:

1. JotWW doesn't need LoS and ignores terrain - > the 24+D6 inches around the Rune Priest is a dead zone (assuming that hes on foot and he moves on clear terrain).

2. JotWW requires an Initiative test and once that is failed there is nothing to save your ass, including psychic protections since this is an area effect spell and not targeted (unless said protection says that it does protect against such effects).

3. A number of armies' key units have low initiative and precious few have ANY means to protect them other than keeping them away from the Rune Priest, which may be extremely detrimental due to the unit's function/role (Synapse Creature, for instance). - > lots of people will have to come up either with techniques to circumvent the problem (not as likely/possible as you might think), or with a different army list altogether.

I think Slaanesh just became a lot more competitive. Remember that PMs have I3?


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## qwertywraith (Sep 8, 2008)

Khorothis said:


> Remember that PMs have I3?


Whoever came up with this power probably did.

As for Slaanesh being more competitive, it's true I'm happy Initiative has become slightly more important, but Slaaneshi characters still die on a 1 in 6 just like everyone else's. This power is a character, MC sniper. Suddenly Dreads seem more valuable too (oh wait, does it affect dreads? They have an Initiative value and are basically infantry.).


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Nope, it doesn't affect Dreads, they're walkers. Though they'll get melta-gibbed instead, so I wouldn't say that they're that good an idea. I'd say that Outflanking Chosen with five Plasma Guns have just become more useful. Or maybe Infiltrating ones with an AC and four Plasma Guns? Fortunately I have a Space Wolf friend (its funny though, with me being a TS fan, lol) and I think we'll be playing lots of games, partially for fun and to experiment with this new spell.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Ignore the shiny toys.

Ignore the ridiculous special characters.

Focus n what actually makes them sick-

They're an assault-oriented Space Marine army with the ability to take two special weapons in a tactical squad.... _while_ toting around the now-incredibly nifty counterattack.

Remember- It's the little things that kill.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

My point to everyone is, without bragging, that you haven't actually used it. It's harder to get in position than you think, and if you think that making your army around 4 of those is the way to go, then I pity your army for competitivity.

I've used, and been on the recieving end of it. It's a nice boost, but really quite shit if that's the tactic. They don't have the survivability of Daemon Princes, even in Terminator Armour.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Fortunately you can't have four due to the HQ rules. Though its still hilarious that they can have 4 HQs. Daemons can have HQs because their Greater Daemons cost craploads of points and Heralds aren't on par with them, so it makes perfect sense. I wonder what would people say if I fielded Kharn and Bile along with two Lash Princes. Or maybe just four Lash Princes.

We seem to have different opinions on the severity of the case, so could we settle on JotWW being ridiculous from both a gaming and a fluff perspective? I mean SWs used to hate sorcerers and look, they can cast bigger spells than a Lord of Change...


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## Thanatos (Mar 23, 2009)

So far i dont have any problems with it at all... so long as no one starts calling cheese lol
Hopefully the new dex and models will get my friend off his arse and buying warhammer


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Wait, here's a VERY important question.
JOTWW is used in the shooting phase right?
And, this is the important bit, can the guy buy a Jump Pack or Bike?

If so, dash-gib.
If not, he's gonna have a little more trouble pulling it off than we think.


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

The DE army I created about 4 years ago and played with annihilated my friend's Space Marine, my other friend's Tau, and even bested a friend's Tyranids (they just couldn't run fast enough). Don't be fooled by the initial beauty and finesse of a new codex, it only seems powerful because it hasn't been played against yet.


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## TheBog (Apr 27, 2009)

Wait a sec.. JOTWW doesn't require LOS even though it's a shooting attack?... That's friggin' retarded. They can hide behind a wall and snipe with it all the want.

Also, how do you figure that you can't have 4 rune priests?

<edit> Double also, they won't be walking around alone. Throw em into a tac squad. Now you need to burn through dozens and dozens of marines before getting to em. Still think they go down easy?


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Winterous said:


> Wait, here's a VERY important question.
> JOTWW is used in the shooting phase right?
> And, this is the important bit, can the guy buy a Jump Pack or Bike?
> 
> ...


He can have either a jumppack or a bike... or you can put him in a rhino move it 12" jump him out an extra 2" and use it then. WOrse still since it doesnt need LoS you can have 4 in a LR and use them all (dont know if you can move a vehicle 12" and use a psychic shooting attack.. probably not).

4 Rune priests each hidden 1 per 9 grey hunters in rhinos will be VERY survivable. If you dont get in combat with them you pretty much have to wipe out the trrops before you kill the psycher, and if you manage that you have probably wont eh game regardless (either through SW not being able to claim objectives or via the KP given away).
- at 1100pts with meltas in the units thats an evil core to any army, through in some heavy support (like 3 vindis if feeling really evil) and you have a horendous army for under 1500pts... and will be called "Beardy ****" for the rest of your natural life.

Ofc that depends on the interp of the 'no 2 characters with same psy powers/wargear' rule... personally Im unsure of where I stand on it (probably the middle ground of no combo of psychic powers and no combo of wargear... though the way the rules are written you could claim that having an additional piece of wargear means you could have the same powers).


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> He can have either a jumppack or a bike... or you can put him in a rhino move it 12" jump him out an extra 2" and use it then. WOrse still since it doesnt need LoS you can have 4 in a LR and use them all (dont know if you can move a vehicle 12" and use a psychic shooting attack.. probably not).
> 
> 4 Rune priests each hidden 1 per 9 grey hunters in rhinos will be VERY survivable. If you dont get in combat with them you pretty much have to wipe out the trrops before you kill the psycher, and if you manage that you have probably wont eh game regardless (either through SW not being able to claim objectives or via the KP given away).
> - at 1100pts with meltas in the units thats an evil core to any army, through in some heavy support (like 3 vindis if feeling really evil) and you have a horendous army for under 1500pts... and will be called "Beardy ****" for the rest of your natural life.
> ...


So wait, can SW have 4 HQ choices??
And there's a special rule that says, what?
Quote the "no 2 things blah blah" rule exactly.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yup, 2 HQs can be taken per FOC slot, so 1-4 in normal games.
cant quote exactly... waiting on someone with the dex


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Khorothis said:


> Fortunately you can't have four due to the HQ rules.


Yes you can.



Khorothis said:


> Though its still hilarious that they can have 4 HQs. Daemons can have HQs because their Greater Daemons cost craploads of points and Heralds aren't on par with them, so it makes perfect sense. I wonder what would people say if I fielded Kharn and Bile along with two Lash Princes. Or maybe just four Lash Princes.


Perhaps because Lash Princes are good, cheap and efficient, where as Jaws of the Wolf Rune Priests aren't. Only thing they are good against, and that's Nurgle Daemons.



> We seem to have different opinions on the severity of the case, so could we settle on JotWW being ridiculous from both a gaming and a fluff perspective? I mean SWs used to hate sorcerers and look, they can cast bigger spells than a Lord of Change...


Not really. No point in asking me something that I clearly don't agree on, having spent the last 2-3 pages saying how crap it actually is against anyone who has any sense in army deployment.

As to those who made the comment about how changing their entire army to counter a specific one, well woopdedoo. What did people have to do when the Core Rulebook Came out? What did people have to do with the Chaos Codex? What did they have to do with the Guard Codex?

Hell, I played Assault Squad 4th Edition Marines, with 52 Jump Packs supported by Las Plas squads in Razorbacks and Vindicators.

What's changed when I played against Chaos? having 52 Jump Packs told where to go with a Psychic Power I didn't have a chance against without Librarians? What did I do? I brought in Jump Pack Epistolaries, but that meant my Command Squads no longer could take Holy Relics, so even more tactics went out with a new edition.

Against Daemons, I had to change my army even more so - I could no longer just use Spammable Epistolaries, as they had Eternal Warrior. Instead, I went back to the Chaplain, and Epistolary combination.

New armies, new tactics boohoo, I now have to think how to win, boohoo. Sorry, no sympathy to all those whiners.

As to the combination - 

"No two characters may bear the same sage, nor may they bear the same combination of psychic powers or wargear combination.

Hence - each Saga is unique (unless on a Special Character), and each priest can have the same Psychic Power, provided the Wargear doesn't match - so Njal, and 3 Rune Priests with Jaws of the Wolf, and one other psychic Power.

Again, it's not that powerful. Njal... he's not that good, compared to the combat heroes.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Wisdom of the ancients.


One question, what's a Sage?
Is that like, a special 1-per-army relic thing?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Saga, typo, my bad.

But yes - grants your Character Eternal Warrior, boosts his attacks in subsequent rounds of combat by the number of models he's killed previously, reroll all failed morale checks within 6", that sort of thing.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Saga, typo, my bad.
> 
> But yes - grants your Character Eternal Warrior, boosts his attacks in subsequent rounds of combat by the number of models he's killed previously, reroll all failed morale checks within 6", that sort of thing.


Oh that's awesome!
It's like a Mark of Chaos, but instead it's a little Bard that follows you around :laugh:


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## Jiaf (Jun 26, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Yes you can.
> 
> 
> Perhaps because Lash Princes are good, cheap and efficient, where as Jaws of the Wolf Rune Priests aren't. Only thing they are good against, and that's Nurgle Daemons.


Uh... What do you mean? 100 points for a character that hide with 10 marines and can kill anything with a simple roll of d6 isn't good? To me it seems like they're good against everything(except vehicles and jump infantry). Name few things they have trouble killing?



Vaz said:


> Not really. No point in asking me something that I clearly don't agree on, having spent the last 2-3 pages saying how crap it actually is against anyone who has any sense in army deployment.


I really haven't seen any posts from you saying how crap it is. All I've seen is that you've been calling others whiners and basically told us to "l2p" and buy a whole new army.



Vaz said:


> New armies, new tactics boohoo, I now have to think how to win, boohoo. Sorry, no sympathy to all those whiners.


Right, could you please show some examples how to adapt against this? Other than "ditch your fexes and do a gargoyle army!!" or "just stay 24" away from them. 

Are you seriously saying that this ability is ok?


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Wait, I thought that if one of your Rune Priests have JotWW or Njal then you can't have another character with the same spell. Is it me being slow or is this thing really badly put?

I'm not so sure about JotWW being so harmless. However, arguing about it is of no use; we'll have to see it for ourselves in battle. Though I'm still firm in my belief that JotWW is ridiculous, in the sense that a sorcery-hating Chapter has the most spectacular spell in the game (as far as I know, that is).


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Name things that Daemon Princes have trouble killing.

What, you mean apart from me saying that you do need to "l2p", because lining up 2 units is asking for the power to be used on you. If you allow said unit to get into position to use it, then surely that's down to you. If you keep them out of position, then they're likely only going to get one kill on it.

As to buying a whole new army - really? Where did I say that? I said that certain units have trouble dealing with certain ones. For example, if someone ran a 500pt Army list for Tyranids, with solid Gaunts and a Broodlord, and trounced an opponent, what would you say would be the most reasonable thing to do next, as a Space Marine player? Buy a Rhino? Change that Meltagun squad to a Flamer Squad?

Same things apply here. Something's new come up, and because you can't actually be bothered about evolving your playing style for a particular army, or saving up some money, and getting a new unit to counter said unit, you whine "cheese". Dual Lash Princes? Holds no real issues for me - I play SM vanilla bikers. I saved up. I may earn more than you, but the point is exactly the same. I was getting trounced, I wanted to have a chance to win, so changed my army accordingly - after trying new tactics first of all.

Also - if you're playing friendly games in the first place - why aren't you allowed to Proxy? If you're sitting on your "no proxy" high horse, then that's your problem. If it's down to your gaming club, then find somewhere else.

As for Ditching Nidzilla, did I say that?

No, I said learn how to counter, unless you really are denser than I thought you were, thinking you'd be able to read between the lines at what I was saying.

The Rune Priests are going to either be in Land Raiders, so can get where they want without being destroyed en-route, or will be shooting from the back of a Rhino. 

As a Tyranid Player - 3x Zoanthropes with Warp Blast will do the job. What's that? No more nuke Choir? Boohoo. Times change. If you don't, it's your issue.

Against Rhino's - Flyrant with Venom Cannon, and Sniper Fexes. After that, it's a case of tying the Rune Priest in combat. Doesn't even need to be a dedicated Combat unit, like Genestealers, or Carnifexes - even Shooty gaunts do the job.

And yes, I'm saying that the power is reasonable - having been on both the recieving end of it, and using it against others.

It's by far nowhere near as bad as Lash - with this, it's still a game of luck, whereas Lash, the only luck is that a DP suffers a PotW.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Vaz said:


> As a Tyranid Player - 3x Zoanthropes with Warp Blast will do the job. What's that? No more nuke Choir? Boohoo. Times change. If you don't, it's your issue.


Wait, really?
Get RID of Nuke Choir?

I take ALL my Zoanthropes with Warp Blast AND Psychic Scream, it's the best outfit I've found.
Nids need the Marine killer, and the anti-vehicle helps so much it's not funny (when it FUCKING HITS)
And Psychic Scream is a staple, against units it affects, it's incredible and nothing less.

Unfortunately, Scream doesn't work on a guy mounted in a Transport, but that's where Warp Blast steps in!

And once he's out of the Transport, and attached to a unit, do you REALLY think you can go without Scream against him?
He'll be testing against Ld7 or less, if you play your guys right, which means he has around a 45% chance to fail the test.


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

More along the lines of 'what the bards have sung about you'.
Each Saga also has a so-called drawback, something that said characters must do to represent the saga they are known for. However, there is no drawback for not doing this ( other than that your enemy can call a moral victory )


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Inquisitor Einar said:


> More along the lines of 'what the bards have sung about you'.
> Each Saga also has a so-called drawback, something that said characters must do to represent the saga they are known for. However, there is no drawback for not doing this ( other than that your enemy can call a moral victory )


Wait, really?
So what, it says "During the game, you must do X."?
Or does it say "The hero went to Bower lake, and gave the Thag a belly ache!"

Oh wait, wrong game.

Or does it say "The hero has a reputation for being awesome, and so tends to be awesome in combat!"?


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

eg- your hero is a beastslayer (gets re-rolls to hit/wound T5+/MC/Walker I think) but he 'should' kill at least 1 of such before the end of the game to show how good he is... its a distinct case of 'So What' if you dont manage it.

My full nuke choir will certainly get used against SW... but if I was tailoring a list then I would have to take more sniperfex and maybe just 2 elite fexes (sending 1 down either flank- normall have 3 for left, right and middle.. depending on enemy set up).

Jaws is arguably more/less powerful then lash depending on the enemy you are playing (here Mr Ku'gath.. got a present for you)... which at least makes it comparable. Seeing as how there are lists out there built around lash that puts it in a class of its own.

Jaws is nasty for 2 reasons: you should get in a possition to get at least 2 nasty targets under the line every turn if you have any sort of fast movement (jump pack, bike, transport) or if you are close... 

bit of mathhammer:
vs SM Chapter Master

Jaws has 15% chance of killing the CM.. or av 6.5 casting attempt to kill him
BS4 Plasmagun has 28% chance of doing a wound... or 10.8 shots to kill him
- so even if you only use it against expensive characters its still better then a 'sniping' plasmagun that can allocate its wounds where you like... and if you hit multiple nasties in the same shot its even nastier.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Jaws is kinda like Mind war.
Except that instead of a puzzle bomb, it's one of those reaction games that electrocutes you, and it's multiplayer.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

I reserve judgement. Likely, My Blood Angels (who are not the best in the game right now) will become Blood Wolves for some testing games. We'll see, I'm sure it'll end up working itself out. Calm down, the SM codex looked SICK in pre-release, and then it cooled down. We'll see if the hype lives up to the reality.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

They're... okay.
I really miss 3rd edition...


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