# 40k and Fantasy????



## wd6669 (Feb 27, 2008)

Ok i know most of you want to rip my head off for another forum about it and this mite of already been said but I keep hearing people in EVERY forum in EVERY site that bring up 40k being in the same universe as fantasy and someone jumps in and says "well gw people state that they are not related" but where is this coming from? Anyone got any answer WHO is saying this. I heard on the site http://www.freewebs.com/malal-lives/conspiracytheories.htm state that Gav Thrope says they will never bring back Malal BUT in http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Malal it says they mention him in the book Way of the dead and the whole Sons of Malice stuff.Also on the first site if u read about Be'lakor he sounds an awfule lot like a fallen primacrh with the whole Sky Lit with battle. 

So my real question isn't do u think the 2 are connected but do u really think the people saying they aren't reliable??


----------



## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Well personally having seen this topic argued over a number of times I think you have got the question wrong. Almost every reason given for them being in the same universe is along the lines of 'but the primarch's are god like and so is Sigmar' or 'there are old ones/chaos gods/similar names in both systems, they must be the same'.

I think rather than asking if those saying they are not related are reliable, the onus should be on those who believe they are related to prove it. Just because there are similarities does not mean they are set in the same universe, plenty of people have cited GW as saying they are not related, so what makes you believe that they are?


----------



## when in doubt shoot! (Oct 19, 2008)

oh god, how long do you think it is before someone states that the warhammer fantasy universe is in the eye of terror? Probably, 'bout 12 seconds.


----------



## Sister Sin (Nov 27, 2007)

Well..it isn't that simple. When RT first came out, and Slaves to Darkness the following year, you could see pictures of a Fantasy battle going on with 40K troops present. If memory serves, without going to dig up the books, there was one where where there were Empire troops (I think) defending a fortress and the Legion of the Damned was there. I forget the exact caption to it these days.

Partly this was due to some books having rules for both Fantasy and 40K. Anyone remember the Ambull?

At one time mixing the two was not so far fetched as Fantasy could be used to represent a medieval level world of the Imperium. Later the two were separated, supposedly, but that hasn't stopped one from feeding off the other in many ways.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Sigmar was born. He was not found. First difference. He's not a Primarch.
In "The Life of Sigmar", it states that he leaves his Empire as an Old Man (Page 87). It is therefore believed he dies - and is not a Primarch.

I understand that this is mainly suggesting that Sigmar is not a Primarch, which is a common point, it also leads away from the Fantasy and 40K links, despite the obvious references, which is basic laziness on Games Workshops part. (I know, how can we double our money? By just replicating info from Fantasy in 40K! Genious).

Just because there are similarities, does not mean that they are entwined. Hell, there are Orcs in Lord of the Rings. And Dwarfs. And Elves. And Humans. With a large realm of man. And a smaller realm of man with lots of Horsemen. But the two aren't linked. Fantasy is a representation of the world as it is. Old World. The Empire (Germany). Bretonnia (France). Albion (Britain). Sylvania (um... Sylvania?). Kislev (Russia). Cathay (China). Khemri (North Africa/Egypt). I could go on. But I won't. Basically, just because there are similarities does not automatically link the two systems.


----------



## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

A lot of this misconception now comes from back in the Rogue Trader days, back when Chaos Warriors could come to the battle with a bolter off a random table etc. 
I think GW folks have even admitted it was considered for a while, but the background now has moved on and there is really nothing that connects them to any degree. The Old Ones are mentioned in both systems yes, but we know little about either in both, and probably never will. 

So aye 20yrs ago this was a resonable rumour or possibility, but not now. Tbh I prefer alot of the modern background and tightening of the fluff, but I do miss the various tables and depth of rules for the units.

Books like Slaves to Darkness, Ere we Go and Freebooterz, really blat nine bells of hell out of their modern equivilents for fluff and background. Really wish I hadn't sold them tbh as they are like golddust now.


----------



## Sister Sin (Nov 27, 2007)

Oh yes, Slaves to Darkness, Lost and Damned, Freebooterz, 'Ere We Go, and the rest of them...awesome stuff. I still have them; I've refused a lot of offers from folks to buy them. 

I prefer the separation of the two games myself, but they did overlap in both play and background in those early days, and that still causes confusion now. 

Fond memories.


----------



## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

We're onto 5th Ed 40k and 7th Ed WHFB. The two games are not at present directly related, though Alessio Cavatore (I think it was, I can't at the moment be arsed to check) said at the time of the Daemons release "these are the same beings" in the two systems.

The problem is that the systems _were_ directly related in 1st Ed 40k and 3rd Ed WHFB and WHFRPS. 40k was deliberately re-written to link it in to the background of WHFB, otherwise it could have been released in 1986. This was when Realm of Chaos was being written and a decision was made to make it compatable with both games. Rick Priestly has said this.

There was also the development of the Chaos Wastes/collapsing warp gates etc and the stories of the Old Slann, which were primarily developed for WHFRPS, IIRC. Old WDs (from issue 88 or thereabouts onwards, circa 1986) will give you details on this. Again, I can't be arsed at the moment to try to dig out my old copies. I reserve the right to provide info later.

Even in 2nd Ed WHFB, before Rogue Trader was released, Amazons had bolt guns, and there were archaeotech transmat sites (like Webway Portals). Check the 2nd Ed WHFB rulebook for this, the "Bestiary" section.

When RT came out, we didn't find it so hard to get our heads round. It was the same game, using the same background, but in space.

But now it's not; though, as I say, I think there are moves (eg the Daemons thing) to bring them closer again. But I'm not holding my breath.

:really, look, breathing in and out cyclops:


----------



## Grik (Jul 28, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Sigmar was born. He was not found. First difference. He's not a Primarch.
> In "The Life of Sigmar", it states that he leaves his Empire as an Old Man (Page 87). It is therefore believed he dies - and is not a Primarch.
> 
> I understand that this is mainly suggesting that Sigmar is not a Primarch, which is a common point, it also leads away from the Fantasy and 40K links, despite the obvious references, which is basic laziness on Games Workshops part. (I know, how can we double our money? By just replicating info from Fantasy in 40K! Genious).
> ...



Very well said. And interesting that you state Cathay is China, I always thought of Cathay as more of India. :grin:


----------



## HorusReborn (Nov 19, 2008)

While I do see alot of similarities with the two systems, there are too many differences to say they are the same... however one thing that makes me suspect to alot of it's "differences" is the fact that the Daemon armies for both are supposed to be the same... not an exact quote, but "skulltaker is the same no matter what dimension he is in" kinda makes me wonder?!? I'll get the exact quote from the WD and post her up


----------



## wd6669 (Feb 27, 2008)

well the thing that always made me believe they are one was the Old ones creating a Webway to the old world. IF they wanted to seperate the 2 worlds why do they have a webway? I don't think sigmar is a primarch but i do believe if one of the people from the old world was it has to be Be'lakor (if hes not just Kaleb daark) because i heard on http://www.freewebs.com/malal-lives/...cytheories.htm Be'lakor says he's from Morrslieb which might just be another planet and not a moon. Also he goes on to say the skys where lit with battle ( kinda like a space fight ),The part where he says a third part of the host of chaos could also mean the "accident" of the 3rd legion. Dorn even states that the missing primarchs had fates that should of warned them about Horus which means atleast one turned to chaos and GW did state only thing thats the same in the 2 worlds are the daemons. Anyways I don't believe to much that Be'lakor is a primarch just thought i'd show what i found. I do believe that we will find out in the HH books


----------



## Truth Bearer (Jul 30, 2008)

> Very well said. And interesting that you state Cathay is China, I always thought of Cathay as more of India.


I also believe it is China, as Cathay was the name Marco Polo gave China when the west first really started dealing with that part of the world.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

The Old Ones created a Gateway (not a webway), as a means of containing the overflowing power of Chaos (similar to the Necron Pylons at Cadia). Daemons were sucked into the Gateway, and it is similar to the Warp - another dimension with an infinite space and different passage of time - but it's not the same.

The god of Khorne is said to physically exist in Fantasy, although he is trapped in the Realms of Chaos, sitting on a throne of skulls of every single person slain in combat, in an Ocean of Blood, tributed to by rivers running from the world, which in turn are fed by the blood of those who die in battle. (Your typical hell). In Fantasy, although daemons can be summoned, they also have physical forms - if you are killed, you are killed. You can take the skulls of the daemons as well.

However, in 40K, he cannot physically exist - they are beings of pure emotion. Daemons are not daemons. Their form in battle is something that they were able to create from the matter of the warp. Hence, a daemon cannot be slain, but is banished. They explode into ichor, and nothingness, but they return to the warp.

Unfortunately, your link does not work - but unless I can find elsewhere, I'm rather sure the Storm of Chaos, and Hordes of Chaos state that Be'lakor returned from Mordheim, which used to be a rather powerful city in the Empire, before a Warpstone Meteor destroyed it. The denizens remaining in the city became mad, and Be'lakor (who used to be the Greatest Daemon Prince, but insulted the Gods, saying he was more powerful, and became their emmisary) threw off his shackles, and fled to that place, using the warpstone to fashion himself a body of darkness. There is a sketch of him in Hordes as well.

After his attempt to destroy the old world failed, he fled, and is now serves as the proclaimer, or Herald of the End Times. 

The 'missing legion' is in fact the *2nd* and *11th* Legion*s*, although the battle in the stars, I cannot explain, although he was present during the first coming of Chaos, and more than likely took part in the war with the Old Ones, Slaan, and Dragons.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Well it's pretty impossible for Be'lakor to be a Primarch, as the first Daemon Prince his mortal life and ascension completely pre-dates the rise to power of the Emperor let alone the creation of the Primarchs. 
The third part of the host is simply that- 1/3 of the host, considering the 3rd Legion was the Emperor's Children I'm not sure what accident you're referencing.

The Webway is a stable conduit through the Warp, the Warp being similar to what is sometimes called the Void in other works of Sci-Fi/Fantasy- it's the dimension separates other dimensions of matter (or at least thats the conclusion I came to personally). So utilising the Warp/Webway it's more than possible for the Old One to have originated from the 40K Universe and visted the Fantasy Universe or vice versa.

EDIT: the link in the original post works- site was quite humorous in the ridiculous conclusions they were coming to.

Actually the Gateway wasn't a way to keep the power of Chaos from overflowing it was another word for a Webway entrance, when the Gateway collapsed it opened up a rift between the Warp and the Fantasy World, as the Gateway was positioned in the northern pole of the world that's why the Chaos Wastes reside there.


----------



## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

i've always thought of it as being fantasy is the history/prehistory to 40K


----------



## Truth Bearer (Jul 30, 2008)

The view that Fantasy is the prerunner of 40k is .... nonsensical? 40k is the future of our earth, whereas Fantasy has often been filled with jokes that it also is (like in Bloodbowl, the finding of the great book of the God Nuffle (nfl) from the ancient past.


----------



## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

I'm not so convinced myself. I think the idea that Warhammer World was the world the Imperium was founded on runs parallel with the idea that Terra is our Earth. Warhammer World is, after all, an 'alternative Earth', hence Nippon, Cathay, Ind, and an 'Empire' where lots of people are called Johan Furtlwenger and such like. I really think it was at least considered to make Terra equal Warhammer World, because there wouyld be no "Earth" as such.

However; that didn't in the end happen, whether or not it was considered.

What did happen was this, according to WD 93 that I have dug out of my loft...

The "entire cosmic guise" of WHFB creatures was revealed (p36); 40k took "the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay background into the galaxy itself" and "the familiar creatures of the Warhammer mythos" were joined by others (p37); "The Warhammer 40,000 background is an extension of the Warhammer game series, linking the Warhammer Fantasy Battle and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay games into a complete background." (p39); we are told that fans of the Slann will "learn more of this once great race and its pivotal role in the history of the galaxy" (p41).

Now, the mechanics don't matter; the fact that the two games systems are similar doesn't mean that they're set in the same universe. But the background, and the links between the games that are *specifically stated* by GW that I've quoted, certainly _do_ mean that they were, at one point, 'the same game'.

So, if GW now says 'they're _not_ the same game", they really should add, for clarity's sake, '_any more_'. Because they sure as hell were.

:ancient-tome-finding cyclops:


----------



## Lord Lucius (Sep 18, 2008)

well...if u want to be pickey,the warp/hell/the void/add your own monicker here/,is in between ALL universes,so yes ,40k could cross over with wfb,if onley with the old ones.but of cours ,at the present they are NOT the same univers.in my opinion the old ones screwed up our 41m so riped through ralitty into wfb screwed that up and died.im wrong but it sounds convincing if you read enough necron and eldar and wfb fluff.and it makes sens
by the way im right about the first bit though


----------



## Red Orc (Jun 14, 2007)

So, your explanation for this - 



Red Orc said:


> ...
> The "entire cosmic guise" of WHFB creatures was revealed (p36); 40k took "the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay background into the galaxy itself" and "the familiar creatures of the Warhammer mythos" were joined by others (p37); "The Warhammer 40,000 background is an extension of the Warhammer game series, linking the Warhammer Fantasy Battle and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay games into a complete background." (p39); we are told that fans of the Slann will "learn more of this once great race and its pivotal role in the history of the galaxy" (p41)....


- is, "Hell intersects with everywhere".

uzzled cyclops:


----------



## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

I owned both Realms books and that WD, a long time ago. But its been such a long time since I read them I had forgotten that info. Nice find Red Orc, nice to see someone kept hold of the older stuff.


----------



## Lord Lucius (Sep 18, 2008)

Red Orc said:


> So, your explanation for this -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yep pretty much


----------

