# Helcult or Mayhem Pack?



## incinerator950 (Mar 23, 2014)

Simply asking what would you take, based on two of the new formations. I'd include the Helfist, but for right now it's too expensive for my army. When I upgrade, I may end up taking it.

Mayhem Pack is three Helbrutes in reserve, deep striking in. They have to roll crazed for movement, but it's essentially back to the old, deep striking multi-melta Chaos dreads. Also, they apparently gain "It will not die". 

Helcults give a Helbrute two squads of fearless meatshields. If the brute dies, they lose fearless and gain zealot. The Helbrute itself gains +3 cover saves if the LoS is partially obscured by the cultists. Price is a cultist per save, which isn't much.


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## CE5511 (Apr 16, 2011)

I would say it depends on your needs. 

The mayhem pack looks fun! Drop them right in the enemy and watch the fun ensue. Great for tarpit units and maybe anti armor.

Helcult looks more like a second line formation. Your front line moves up and deals with the enemy, while the helcult walks behind and takes a few objectives (I assume the cultist still count as troops?). Otherwise a screening unit, or tarpit as well. Plenty of options here.


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

I like the idea of throwing a Mayhem Pack into a Flying Circus.


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

incinerator950 said:


> Simply asking what would you take, based on two of the new formations. I'd include the Helfist, but for right now it's too expensive for my army. When I upgrade, I may end up taking it.
> 
> Mayhem Pack is three Helbrutes in reserve, deep striking in. They have to roll crazed for movement, but it's essentially back to the old, deep striking multi-melta Chaos dreads. Also, they apparently gain "It will not die".
> 
> Helcults give a Helbrute two squads of fearless meatshields. If the brute dies, they lose fearless and gain zealot. The Helbrute itself gains +3 cover saves if the LoS is partially obscured by the cultists. Price is a cultist per save, which isn't much.


As I have said at other times, spending 15% of your points on a unit that may not show up until turn 3 -4 is a risk. And the fact that the go crazy all the time, makes them a little to random for me. The Helcult rocks, they are cheep and a good way to to free up elite choice so they are not all full helbrutes.


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

By being able to deep strike the Mayhem Pack, you allow it to drop in fairly close, and by kitting out the Helbrutes with fist/Melta, you help deal with one of the biggest problems... getting a Crazed Result halfway across the board where it can't use everything. I think this helps it a LOT by allowing you to drop it close where any result is a good one. I wouldn't recommend something like double missiles or even double fists so you can shoot when needed, but that's a lot of armor for an enemy to worry about, even if it shows up late.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

There is something pointed out on another forum about the Mayhem Pack I feel is worth noting: since Crazed rolls occur at the start of the movement phase they can't roll on that chart on the turn they deep strike (Reserve rules covers this IIRC). So that first turn they're more manageable than one would expect.


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Damnit Zion!
Now I want another helbrute to get me up to three as thats another formation you've just sold to me :laugh:


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Gret79 said:


> Damnit Zion!
> Now I want another helbrute to get me up to three as thats another formation you've just sold to me :laugh:


There are days I wish I was working for GW's marketting department (which doesn't exist, but that's besides the point) so I could get paid for this kind of stuff.


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## incinerator950 (Mar 23, 2014)

Zion said:


> There is something pointed out on another forum about the Mayhem Pack I feel is worth noting: since Crazed rolls occur at the start of the movement phase they can't roll on that chart on the turn they deep strike (Reserve rules covers this IIRC). So that first turn they're more manageable than one would expect.


Yeah, reserve/deepstrike does cover this. The problem with them is the same as taking any large units, they're not resilient and melta/fist to death quite easily. Where as using a single brute with a TLL and a ML to support with a meatshield while your other cultists take objectives sounds more efficient. 

Honestly I'm leaning towards the Mayhem just because it will be cheaper for me and easier to model. I just want more opinions before I commit to a build order.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

I kind of want to do both Mayhem and Helcult. 

Guess I'm going to need to magnetize a whole bunch of 'Brutes....


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## incinerator950 (Mar 23, 2014)

Well I also want to commit to a Helfist when I bump to 2k.


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## paolodistruggiuova (Feb 24, 2010)

actually since both the reserve rolls and the crazed rolls happens ''at the start of the movement phase'' you can resolve them in the order of your choice (so in this case, to roll it or not at all), do you like gambles?


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## incinerator950 (Mar 23, 2014)

You don't use start of the movement phase on deployment of reserves though.


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## paolodistruggiuova (Feb 24, 2010)

incinerator950 said:


> You don't use start of the movement phase on deployment of reserves though.


uhm..yes you do, roll reserves and deploying reserves are simultaneous. (pg 124 BRB: When reserve arrives choose one and deploy it...)

actually I'm wrong
pg 125 BRB: a unit arriving from reserves cannot use abilities or powers that happens at the start of the turn

no random first turn with helbrutes then


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

paolodistruggiuova said:


> uhm..yes you do, roll reserves and deploying reserves are simultaneous. (pg 124 BRB: When reserve arrives choose one and deploy it...)
> 
> actually I'm wrong
> pg 125 BRB: a unit arriving from reserves cannot use abilities or powers that happens at the start of the turn
> ...


Yaaay no chance of having to run at an enemy you can't charge, then. Multi-meltas, away!


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## incinerator950 (Mar 23, 2014)

Mossy Toes said:


> Yaaay no chance of having to run at an enemy you can't charge, then. Multi-meltas, away!


Yeah. I've noticed from some other battle reports that the multimelta rush isn't so happy, but heavy flamers and other weapons will be just as helpful.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

incinerator950 said:


> Yeah. I've noticed from some other battle reports that the multimelta rush isn't so happy, but heavy flamers and other weapons will be just as helpful.


If you don't want to keep them bare-bones cheap with the Multi-Melta, then a TL Lascannon or the Missile Launcher are the other good options for running it with (ML for versatility, TL Las for being, well, TL).


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## incinerator950 (Mar 23, 2014)

My helcult settup is a ML with a TLLC. Problem is my mayhem pack being MMs and HF/PFs.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Is this something that can be used inr egular 40k or is it a apoc formation?


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## incinerator950 (Mar 23, 2014)

Regular formations for both Demons and CSM.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

incinerator950 said:


> Regular formations for both Demons and CSM.


Regular formations for anyone CSM can ally with I think you'll find. Which goes beyond just Daemons.

Want Traitor Guard? Well now you can run them with a helping of Helbrutes!


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

The helcult is appealing to me because it's a pain in the ass midfield camping unit. Even when the dread does you have two potentially large cultist squads sitting there with fearless (without having to attach your lord to it). That's going to take some attention to remove. I'll be trying this formation out soon. 

The mayhem pack would be a great answer to knights and other super heavy vehicles. Since they can only put the shield on 1 facing, and you deep strike all 3 as seperate units (but at the same time) you can easily mitigate the ion shield by dropping in on multiple sides. The downside is crazed of course after the initial turn....but either way they'll have to be delt with by the enemy quickly.


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## incinerator950 (Mar 23, 2014)

I'm trying to understand the reserves roll into movement for crazed. I'm believing that I don't understand if you do or don't roll for crazed, so I'll figure it out later.

Regardless I've decided to go mayhem, there are a lot of brutes and dreadnoughts going on sale on ebay and quite honestly I don't feel like investing in Balestar just yet to get more out of suicide troops.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

incinerator950 said:


> I'm trying to understand the reserves roll into movement for crazed. I'm believing that I don't understand if you do or don't roll for crazed, so I'll figure it out later.


I believe that the general consensus is that actions "at the start of the movement phase" and "at the start of the turn" are done at the same time, since the start of the movement phase is the start of your turn, and given the number of different things in the rulebook you do at that time, and the way the FAQs shake out, they are basically the exact same thing--and another FAQ states that things you would do simultaneously then you get to choose the order of. In essence, you choose to "roll on crazed table"--when there are no Helbrutes on the table to roll for. Then you roll for reserves and if the 'Brutes come on, they behave as normal since whatever effect you would have rolled doesn't apply to them.

It's not a 100% waterproof interpretation, and it's probably best to discuss with the person you're playing with beforehand... especially given that friends may well not be familiar with the Helbrute formations in any case.


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## incinerator950 (Mar 23, 2014)

Thanks, that's what I perceived after more digging. 

I decided to go Mayhem pack simply because the Helbrutes and Chaos Dreads keep popping up on Ebay at good prices.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

As per the rules for Reserves (the part we want is on Page 125):


> Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, *or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the state of the turn*, in the turn it arrives from reserves.


Basically, things that happen at the start of the turn, such as casting blessings, don't occur on the turn you come in from reserves (as you're not on the table until after the phase).

Because of that you don't roll for Crazed on the turn they arrive.

Besides, when you roll for reserves you do so at the start of the movement phase, which is when you normally roll for Crazed. The model isn't on the table yet though so can't apply the rule because it arrives _after_ you've already made the rolls to see if it comes on the table.


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## incinerator950 (Mar 23, 2014)

That was my impression.


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