# The Twins and the Alpha Legion *Spoilers*



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

*Firstly this Thread contains spoilers regarding the HH Novel 'Legion' and the Alpha Legion.
*

Ok well I've actually half robbed this thread off Warseer, as I thought it was an interesting one, and wanted to see what you heretics thought of it 

The Alpha Legion's Primarch(s) are twins. Do you think that they are not as intellectual/powerful/strong individually as the other primarchs? Or are they, and does the Alpha Legion have 2 Primarchs? Alpharius had never been noted as a 'fighting primarch' - he would likely lose in a 1v1 against Russ, Angron or Horus for example - But his talents are said to have lied in his mental abilites.

I personally tend to take a more literal interpretation of 'One soul in two bodies' remark - That apart they are not an entire Primarch, not physically, but spiritually and mentally. (The Emperor created 20 Primarchs after all, not 21)

For example in Legion, no clear cut decision on what the Alpha Legion are going to do is given following the viewing of the Acuity, instead: (Page 397) 'Alpharius raised a hand for silence. He looked at his twin, and they stared into each other's eyes for a long time.'

What passes between the Primarchs during this 'long time' is implied as being the decision they make regarding the whole Acuity/Heresy situation. They are Twins, I see them as being the Primarch of the Alpha Legion together, not individually - The Alpha Legion by my reasoning has one Primarch not two.

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As for the Alpha Legion in general. What role do you think they played during the Heresy? From Collected Visions we know that they ambushed the Space Wolves following the burning of Prospero. But is this really all they did? They had 2 years to prepare for the Heresy (Following the Meeting with the Cabal), and given Alpharius Omegon's character (Liked to be in complete control of a situation), and the Alpha Legions trademark secrecy, to me its obvious that they played a major role throughout the Heresy. Thoughts?

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Also in 'Legion' its never stated that the Alpha Legion give into the demands of the Cabal, so don't assume they did. Given Alpharius and Omegon's actions following the meeting, its not clear what they decided. But most people seem to accept the implication (of Alpharius doing as the Cabal wished) as fact.

I was just wondering If you guys had any thoughts on Alpharius Omegon in this regard, or on them or the Alpha Legion in general?


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## Bloody Mary (Nov 6, 2009)

I think I'd have to agree with you on them both being the Primarch. The Cabal pretty much said when it appeared that Alpharius came alone that they wanted to meet the *whole* Primarch.

As for the Alpha Legion's role in the Heresy I've got two theories. The optimistic one is that they're secretly on the Imperium's side and hadn't followed the Cabal, because they gathered information which pushed them to a different course. The pessimistic one is that they started off as double agents, but Chaos seduced them in the end.


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## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

The Alpha Legion did indeed have a major part to play in the Heresy, of that I am sure. That was perhaps what the Cabal had destined for them. I mean, how else could the Heresy have gone that smooth. 
They could possibly have something to do with how the Word Bearers got their major planetkiller-ship made by the Ad-Mec.

Other than that, there isn't much we know about the Alpha Legion.

Personally, I do believe that they turned double-agents during the Heresy. But post-Heresy, it's hard to say. I believe that the 'cells' operating in realspace are sane, and still following Big-E. But the ones that operated with other warbands, and inside the Eye of Terror. Those are probably a lost cause, seduced and corrupted by the powers of Chaos. This could possibly explain the case of Sindri and Bale's 'cell' in the original Dawn of War.


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## CaptainLoken (May 13, 2009)

I think that separately they are not as strong as Gulleman killed one of them after the HH. So that in turn may have have turned the legion against the Imperium of man fully then....


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## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

CaptainLoken said:


> I think that separately they are not as strong as Gulleman killed one of them after the HH.


Or did he? 

It could just have gone like this:

Alpharius to grunt 1: Ok, now YOU be Alpharius.
Grunt 1: Yes, Primarch!

*enter guilliman*

Guilliman: DIE, TRAITOR!
Grunt 1: *gulp*
Alpharius: *pushes Grunt 1 towards Guilliman* Good luck, Primarch Alpharius! *runs away*


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## CaptainLoken (May 13, 2009)

lol could of happened. though if only one half of the twins were killed would explain why the alpha legion did not fall apart as easy as gulliman thought. What was it cut the head and the body would die? but as the legion had two heads they could carry on fighting.


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## Bloody Mary (Nov 6, 2009)

I don't think Alpha Legion would fall, even if they lost their primarch (or rather, both of him). They might get more disorganised, but they'd prevail. Remember, they were supposed to be able to opperate on their own.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

CaptainLoken said:


> lol could of happened. though if only one half of the twins were killed would explain why the alpha legion did not fall apart as easy as gulliman thought. What was it cut the head and the body would die? but as the legion had two heads they could carry on fighting.


The whole point was that Alpharius highly valued free thinking. He wanted his Legion to be able to operate fully if he wasn't present. He doctrinated them to be able to act without a command structure. 

This is why the Alpha Legion were able to act as independent cells so effectively.

Also on a side note its highly likely that Alpharius survived the war with the Ultramarines. Firstly because we know around the time of the Great Crusade it was possible for any and all marines to act in as Primarch (the whole "I am Alpharius" thing!). Secondly the legion favoured Secrecy, if Alpharius survived it wouldn't be posted around, it would be kept secret. In fact in my opinion its probable that Alpharius actually orchestrated the war with the Ultramarines to fake his own death, thus planting misinformation in Imperial Records. (In fact even Guilliman himself doubted the accuracy of the accounts)

And even _If_ Alpharius was killed, Omegon wasn't necessarily k:


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## CaptainLoken (May 13, 2009)

So even one half of them is better than none and would still be more of a match for a normal spacemarine in combat.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

yes but to think that an imperial record that states his death is true even if it came from the ultramarines is ludicrous. we have found out that most of the information about them was planted by a rogue inquisitor who was 'studying' them yet they were able to get to him and now we dont know if he was working for them the whole time. my thought is that it wasnt either of the primarchs that guilliman killed, alpharius was rumored to be the same size as Horus, this comes from when alpharius attacked Horus's bridge and they first met.

it was most likely a marine that looked like him, hence guilliman killing him so easily. my guess is that the heresy would not have gone so well if it wasnt for the alpha legion, if they had stayed loyal im pretty sure that the emp wouldnt be on the throne at the moment. they had the ability to absolutely mess with other legions through misinformation and whatnot


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## GiftofChaos1234 (Jan 27, 2009)

i see this as kinda like ingo pech or whateverhisname herzog (the first and second captains) stepping in for their lord and primarch and going "hey papasmurf! i'm alpharius! then proceeding to stick his tongue out at the papa smurf before getting a phenomenal uppercut with a powerfist.


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## CaptainLoken (May 13, 2009)

Kinda like the idea that he killed one of them and thought yeah I just killed my brother now watch them fall!!! Only to realise that he did failed to kill them both (not knowing they were twins) And sitting back thinking they would start to fall apart but the other brother was like I'm really pissed off now lets make this fight really hard for them now!!!


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

I think Alpharius and Omegon are considered a single identity. there are generally referred to as one compact name Alpharius Omegon. Also, the fact that they developed their legion to all think as one would indicate them being of one entity as well. Every member of the Alpha legion calls himself Alpharius for example. 

I also think that if they were wholly separate beings, then yes there would have been 21 primarchs made in the imperial records.

As for what they did in the Horus Heresy, they definitely played a significant role In fact many in the imperium believe they played the MOST IMPORTANT role in creating what success the heresy had beyond Horus bringing all of them togeather. The Alpha legion, or Alpharius rather, is believed to be the mastermind behind the "drop site massacre" events on Istvaan V.

they also performed many sabotage missions around the imperium before the actual attack on terra even came, as well as mentioned ambushing the space wolves who probably would have been the biggest aid that Terra could have for beyond what forces they already had.


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## Snake40000 (Jan 11, 2010)

Ok can someone link the book hellhound on a website or something because i can not find it any where....


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Please be ware my english isnt the best so just ask if I make no kind of sense.

My thoughts about the whole situation: We can start at the beginning, we dont truly know the intentions of the Kabal. They could have seen the possible outcome of two scenarios. It isnt sure they actually saw what happened but when instructing Alpharius they made one more join the other side that eventually would lead to more joining Horus. It other words, I think they lied to him in order to make the civil war between Chaos and the Emperor far worse and thus the eventual end of mankind (one less player at the table for the aliens to compete with?)

The Primarch of Alhpa legion played a major role in the victories of Horus but the Kabal had missjudged the Emperor and so he was victorious (except he became a vegetable). The drop-site massacre might have been less costful for the 3 legions destroyed there and there would be 10 legions against 8.

And the outcome if the Emperor would win and Chaos would take over 10 000 years later have yet to happen fully completely. It isnt too late for the Imperium to smack their asses back to the EoT. =)


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> alpharius was rumored to be the same size as Horus, this comes from when alpharius attacked Horus's bridge and they first met.


But even that little information we have on Alpharius' discovery comes from Inquisitor Kravin. Which for all we know may well be a complete fabrication.


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## Cruor99 (Mar 11, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> But even that little information we have on Alpharius' discovery comes from Inquisitor Kravin. Which for all we know may well be a complete fabrication.


The Alpha Legion is indeed a large headache for anyone trying to figure it out. As it should be, to be honest. They need to be that way, for them as a legion to fit in. 

Nobody knows who or what they are or what they are working for. Only that they appear, sometimes. They could in fact be everywhere, and have a finger in everything. 

Splinters are bound to have formed, some fallen to chaos, some staying loyal to the Emperor. (As seen with their alleged battlecry: "For the Emperor!")

This could probably signify the duality in the primarchs, that one complemented the other. That they were a balance. If Guilliman did indeed strike down Alpharius, Omegon could have overpowered whatever it was that Alpharius held back (Swaying one way or the other, in favour of the Cabal's decision (IE: Loyalty to the Emperor or not))


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

> As for what they did in the Horus Heresy, they definitely played a significant role In fact many in the imperium believe they played the MOST IMPORTANT role in creating what success the heresy had beyond Horus bringing all of them togeather. The Alpha legion, or Alpharius rather, is believed to be the mastermind behind the "drop site massacre" events on Istvaan V.


Where'd you find that? That would be interesting for sure.

I think of all the traitor legions, the alpha legion seems to have acted more independently. 

On the other hand, what was the Alpa Legion doing in span of two years? Though it was important to secure worlds for the warmaster I'd like to know that a full astartes legion was able to heavily devastate the loyalist astartes.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Where'd you find that? That would be interesting for sure.


The bit about Alpharius (co)planning the Drop Site Massacre? The Alpha Legion Index Astartes article I believe.


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

I dont believe they are the same person, this is just my theory and I have nothing whatsoever to back me up, other than this dazzling smile :biggrin: to turn you to my cause.

Its always stated Big E created 20 Primarch's not 21, but isnt it also stated no one knew of Omegon outside of whoever Alpha Legion wanted to know?
Surely its not beyond the realm of possibillity that chaos fecked the process for Alpharius right up when they whisked them away?

(Which brings me this thought: In what order where the Primarch's made? Is the answer in the Legion number or in another way?)

I'd of the opinion that they would be off researching what the cabal told them, to the best of their abilities, ok maybe they were swayed by the vision, but it strikes me that the choice was monumental and they made that choice because of a xeno flick?
That and scheming and plotting for Horus, I can see them now, the invasion of Terra is drawing to an end, the world is decimated, victory is round the corner, so high fives all round, when news of Horus dropping his shields reaches them, Alpharious and Omegon look at each other, facepalm in perfect unison saying 'He did what? Oh f*@#ing idiot'


As I say, nothing to back my thoughts up, just my opinion


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## cheef3 (Aug 8, 2009)

maybe omegon is one of the missing primarchs and was expunged from the records by alpharious who may have found him during the great crusade before the empy did, and knew they were twins. so that makes 1 primarch gone and one hidden(omegon). also perhaps they are both like the guy from law abiding citizen, if anyone has seen the movie you know what im talking about( a one man think tank, or in this case 2 man).plan out everything before it happens, so if they think alpharious is dead its cause he wants them to think so.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I don't think they would do so. Dan Abnett said he was actually a twin in his interview. Besides even though it would be interesting, it would kill so many fans to find out that Alpahrius' one unique trait wasn't having a twin and the mystery of the primarchs ruined.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The bit about Alpharius (co)planning the Drop Site Massacre? The Alpha Legion Index Astartes article I believe.


Thanks man.
:victory:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Kickback said:


> I dont believe they are the same person, this is just my theory and I have nothing whatsoever to back me up, other than this dazzling smile :biggrin: to turn you to my cause.
> 
> Its always stated Big E created 20 Primarch's not 21, but isnt it also stated no one knew of Omegon outside of whoever Alpha Legion wanted to know?
> Surely its not beyond the realm of possibillity that chaos fecked the process for Alpharius right up when they whisked them away?


Sorry, Im a bit confused about what your saying 

So you believe Alpharius and Omegon are seperate entities and seperate Primarchs? Not together the _whole_ Primarch as mentioned in _Legion_?

And are you suggesting there were 21 Primarchs, based on the idea that apparently no one outside of the Alpha Legion (apparently) knew about Omegon?

Although it wouldn't be much of an assumption to claim the Emperor knew about Omegon. Firstly there is the subtle implication in _A Thousand Sons_, and there is the precedent of the Emperor knowing about particular Primarch's abilities without anyone else knowing - Corax's 'Invisibility' for example. If he knew about that, I can see him knowing about Omegon.



Kickback said:


> (Which brings me this thought: In what order where the Primarch's made? Is the answer in the Legion number or in another way?)


We don't really know, I presume it was simultaneously. Why?



cheef3 said:


> maybe omegon is one of the missing primarchs and was expunged from the records by alpharious who may have found him during the great crusade before the empy did, and knew they were twins. so that makes 1 primarch gone and one hidden(omegon). also perhaps they are both like the guy from law abiding citizen, if anyone has seen the movie you know what im talking about( a one man think tank, or in this case 2 man).plan out everything before it happens, so if they think alpharious is dead its cause he wants them to think so.


While it is an interesting theory, I think most evidence suggests the contrary. Generally being the information in _Legion_ and the small tidbits of information we have on the Lost Primarchs throughout the source material.

And if Omegon was simply one of the Lost Primarchs discovered by Alpharius, where was his Astartes Legion? Why was he Alpharius' twin (none of the other Primarchs were)? From _Legion_ I think its safe to assume that Alpharius Omegon together is the Primarch of the Alpha Legion.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

There is always the possibility that one of the twins has fallen to Chaos, whilst his brother stayed loyal. It would certainly make some sense given that, at the end of _Legion_ we get the impression that the Alphas are going to stay loyal, but in the 'present' the Alpha Legion seeem to be fighting on the side of the bad guys. Hell, it might even be a calculated ploy, playing both sides of the game for a goal unknown to any but AlphariusOmegon themselves. One burns with the dark glory of Chaos, leading his sons on missions to burn the Imperium; the other is a paragon of purity, selfless and untiring as he leads _his_ sons in the defence of the Emperor's realm. And doing both of these things advances their plan.
The only issue I have with saying that the Alpha Legion have been loyal, at all, since the Heresy is that we don't seem to have any examples of them doing anything to aid the Imperium. If they were loyal then shouldn't we see them as more Eldar-ish, a loose cannon that seem to act almost capriciously, without recourse to any logic any outsider can see?
As for the twins themselves, I reckon that together they are as powerful as any Primarch, seperately not so much. But it might be this 'two souls, one person' that gives them their strength. Twins they are, but also two individuals; they have two awesome minds to throw at any problem, two viewpoints that if they don't agree on a course of action, will be able to reach further for answers than any one person could do in solitary thought. We have lots of stories about actual twins who seem to share a psychic bond, so imagine that writ Primarch-large, with them having an actual psychic connection.

GFP


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Sorry, Im a bit confused about what your saying
> 
> So you believe Alpharius and Omegon are seperate entities and seperate Primarchs? Not together the _whole_ Primarch as mentioned in _Legion_?
> 
> And are you suggesting there were 21 Primarchs, based on the idea that apparently no one outside of the Alpha Legion (apparently) knew about Omegon?


Sorry, what I meant was, for all intents and purposes as far as the Big E was concerned he was creating only 20 beings, but when Chaos took them, mutation happened and caused the one to break into two.....hmmm I should really post more in the morning as opposed to after work, contradicting myself? Check!

I did have a reason for wanting to know what order, if any, the Primarch's we're created, but for the life of me I cant remember it :ireful2:


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> One burns with the dark glory of Chaos, leading his sons on missions to burn the Imperium; the other is a paragon of purity, selfless and untiring as he leads _his_ sons in the defence of the Emperor's realm. And doing both of these things advances their plan.


I absolutely LOVE that idea. 




Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> The only issue I have with saying that the Alpha Legion have been loyal, at all, since the Heresy is that we don't seem to have any examples of them doing anything to aid the Imperium. If they were loyal then shouldn't we see them as more Eldar-ish, a loose cannon that seem to act almost capriciously, without recourse to any logic any outsider can see?


Maybe they have. I think the problem there is that the entire Eldar race didn't suddenly decide to leap up and (in public at least) side with Horus. Even if the Alpha Legion was doing altruistic things it's likely that the inquisition and astartes wouldn't let the Info circulate. Hell even bog standard civilians would probably be confused by a legion they've been told in hundreds of legends was a bunch of filthy traitors swooping in and saving them.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Certainly the Imperium would never credit them with any help. But I was talking about the omniscient-voice Narrator that gives us players a bigger insight into the goings-on in 40kville. If this Narrator told us that the Alphas, maybe even unknown to anyone else, had materially aided some Imperial group, suddenly everything is to play for.

GFP


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Certainly the Imperium would never credit them with any help. But I was talking about the omniscient-voice Narrator that gives us players a bigger insight into the goings-on in 40kville. If this Narrator told us that the Alphas, maybe even unknown to anyone else, had materially aided some Imperial group, suddenly everything is to play for.
> 
> GFP


Who knows maybe this will become a plot point in later Chaos Marine's codexs. Remember the Alpha legion in game has mainly been portrayed as a colour scheme and not much else. Gone are the days when each Chaos Legion got their own little piece of fluff in the codex.


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## shas'o Thraka (Jan 4, 2010)

I thing that Alpharius and Omegon are two different Primarchs, and here's my reasoning.

One of them could have been one of the 'lost' primarchs. They could have both ladned on the same world, and the Emperor saw how they both worked as a team and contemplated each other, he gave thm both control of the legion.

He did not tell the other Primarchs of this as he knew they would look down on them, and not call them 'real' primarchs.

And maybe there is a third Primarch, this would explain the two 'missing' ones.

Think about it Alpharius, Omegon and Gammion or something like that.
Alpha, Omega and Gamma.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

some interesting ideas, but i think Alpharius and Omegon were one primarch as they seem to be exactly identical as well as being able to share thoughts together (i think its hinted in "Legion" that the two are able to think together as one), and i dont think that Omegon is a missing primarch....

also my view on their fluff, i think Alpharius, Omegon and some trust-worthy captains and astrates instructed and let the Alpha Legion to turn traitor (for the "greater good") while they themselves kept loyal.


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## shas'o Thraka (Jan 4, 2010)

That is a good arguement, but I will stick to my idea.:biggrin:


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I thought that Alpha Legion was completely ruined by Soulstorm, for me at least. I didn't really get the psycho-khorne-bloodthirster stuff, it seemed a bit to World Eaters. Hands down Winter Assault had the best storyline/best characters.

Anyway, I think that the Alphas are working as a third force, maybe furthering Chaos' plans for the good of the Imperium. Followers of, ooh, is it Mazal? Chaos God of Purity/Anti-Chaos? Which doesn't seem right as a world where daemons can't exist is impossible, read 'Hammer of Daemons'.

I agree with the two Primarchs landed on the same world theory, it seems likely. If each Primarch had a special talent (Corax's 'Invisibility', Sanguinus' wings etc.) then maybe Alpharius Omegon's gift was a psychic link with themselves and the Emperor.

Midnight


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

shas'o Thraka said:


> and the Emperor saw how they both worked as a team and contemplated each other


But if Inquisitor Kravin's account is to be believed, Horus discovered Alpharius not the Emperor. 



shas'o Thraka said:


> he gave thm both control of the legion.


But if they were two seperate Primarchs, they would have had two seperate Astartes Legions.



Coder59 said:


> Gone are the days when each Chaos Legion got their own little piece of fluff in the codex.


True. Although I thought the few paragraphs on an Alpha Legion cell destroying the entire Emperor's Sword Chapter was a fantastic read and really went a long way to show what individual and self sufficient Alpha cells are capable of.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Plus the Alpha & Omega thing just works so wonderfully- it's from so many sources but the most prominent would be the Bible (thank you Fallout 3!)...kind of ruins it with a Gamma :wink:

Kravin, even though he's later discovered to be corrupted, says the ancient journal recording most of the details we know about the Alpha Legion only has a veracity of 62.5%- so that's a 37.5% chance it's a complete fake (or so exaggerated as to be almost useless) before we even take into account the trustworthiness of the person presenting this discovered cache of information.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

shas'o Thraka said:


> I thing that Alpharius and Omegon are two different Primarchs, and here's my reasoning.
> 
> One of them could have been one of the 'lost' primarchs. They could have both ladned on the same world, and the Emperor saw how they both worked as a team and contemplated each other, he gave thm both control of the legion.
> 
> ...


I think that if Gamesworkshop really decided to go this route, they would have to explain what happened to his legion. It is possible that maybe his legion was destroyed and suffered over some incident or maybe the emperor realized that they posed a threat and banished/destroyed them... The emperor has been seen (or at least until Prospero Burns comes out and confirms this) to do something like this with the Thousand Sons.


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## shas'o Thraka (Jan 4, 2010)

Crawford I'm just thinknig that maybe they all had different specialities and weaknesses, sorta like a half-primarch. Which would explain why they were never a *HUGE* threat during the heresy.

Or maybe they could be the deathshroud....na I jk


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> * The Alpha Legion's Primarch(s) are twins. Do you think that they are not as intellectual/powerful/strong individually as the other primarchs? Or are they, and does the Alpha Legion have 2 Primarchs? Alpharius had never been noted as a 'fighting primarch' - he would likely lose in a 1v1 against Russ, Angron or Horus for example - But his talents are said to have lied in his mental abilites.
> I personally tend to take a more literal interpretation of 'One soul in two bodies' remark - That apart they are not an entire Primarch, not physically, but spiritually and mentally. (The Emperor created 20 Primarchs after all, not 21)
> *


*

I agree in that I think that that combined they are a complete Primarch, but on their own they are physically only half as strong as all the other Primarchs as their physical abilities had to be shared between the 2 of them. Ie if the Emperor gave (for arguments sake) physical "ability points" to all the primarchs and each has them distributed slightly differently, then Alpharious and Omegon shared the total so Alpharious and Omegon would only be half as strong as any of the other Primarchs. (or half as fast, of half as able to regenerate wounds etc)

However since each had their own minds then this was enough to make up for their lack of physical prowess (compared to the other Primarchs not normal space marines) as I believe Alpharious and Omegon mentally were up there with the other Primarchs on their own so instead of having 1 supreme planner leading them (like Ultras, DA, SoH) they had 2. They and their Legion depended on their brains not their brawn.

I think this is how any Alpha Marine was able to pass for their Primarch as they were not as physically imposing as the other Primarchs.

Just my 2 cents *


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

zerachiel76 said:


> I agree in that I think that that combined they are a complete Primarch, but on their own they are physically only half as strong as all the other Primarchs as their physical abilities had to be shared between the 2 of them. Ie if the Emperor gave (for arguments sake) physical "ability points" to all the primarchs and each has them distributed slightly differently, then Alpharious and Omegon shared the total so Alpharious and Omegon would only be half as strong as any of the other Primarchs. (or half as fast, of half as able to regenerate wounds etc)
> 
> However since each had their own minds then this was enough to make up for their lack of physical prowess (compared to the other Primarchs not normal space marines) as I believe Alpharious and Omegon mentally were up there with the other Primarchs on their own so instead of having 1 supreme planner leading them (like Ultras, DA, SoH) they had 2. They and their Legion depended on their brains not their brawn.
> 
> ...



Credible, I`ll give you that. It actually makes a lot of sense, but I`m not so sure about the whole "Divided power" thing. In my mind I see them being genetically and physiologically identical. If chaos energy was used to create them, and they then divided, then I imagine they both would have grown to full strength.

btw, they were both still quite imposing. The marine who impersonated them was quite a large fellow, even for a marine, and as far as I know he was the only one who did it. Sorry, can`t recall his name (I don`t own the Legion book, I just borrowed it).


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## nate187 (Feb 2, 2009)

I guess we will find out when Dan decides to dwelve further into the alpha legion he did say he would in his interview.

I like to believe they are an anomaly amoungst the primarchs and the emperor only knows the truth. Makes me wonder now did guilliman really kill alpharius??? if so what would happen to omegon?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

nate187 said:


> I guess we will find out when Dan decides to dwelve further into the alpha legion he did say he would in his interview.
> 
> I like to believe they are an anomaly amoungst the primarchs and the emperor only knows the truth. Makes me wonder now did guilliman really kill alpharius??? if so what would happen to omegon?


I wish he said that, but if your talking about the interview with Dan Abnett made a while ago, he said the it would be a "shame" if they didn't go further with their story. Don't worry like everything else there still is room for disapointment.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I don't think we should be looking at any future C:CSMs as being less about fluff. The current gen. of Codecies is chock-full of fluffy goodness, so I can't see them not doing it for Chaos. 
OT. I imagine that, as all of the Primarchs are beyond gifted _in their own, seperate, ways_, then this will be the case with AlphariusOmegon. Wether they are two halves of one soul may not dilute their power in the slightest, because their, to coin a really poor word, Primarch-icity overcomes any such petty concerns as what, and how many, bodies it is contained in. We know, from A Thousand Sons, that the Primarchs don't even have anything to do with anything so mundane as actual organs, and Ferrus' death was a hell of a light show. Two bodies one soul? That's small fry!

GFP


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I don't think that Alpharius or Omegon were necessarily as strong as other Primarchs in terms of personal combat, but I seriously doubt that this was because they were twins. It draws too much from natural gestation periods, which really has nothing to do with what the Emperor was about. By that argument, you might as well claim that Sanguinius was the most fragile of Primarchs, given the comparative bone density/strength of winged animals versus non-winged ones.

Rather, along the lines that another poster offered, I think the true reflection of the "One Primarch, Two Bodies" concept can be found in the lessening of their respective power the farther one is from the other.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> btw, they were both still quite imposing. The marine who impersonated them was quite a large fellow, even for a marine, and as far as I know he was the only one who did it. Sorry, can`t recall his name (I don`t own the Legion book, I just borrowed it).


No, a lot of Alpha Legion captains posed as Alpharius on several occasions. Its just for more official occasions when possibly a smaller Astartes may not pass as easily as a Primarch (due to individuals being present who were more aware of the height/strength/nature/aura of Primarchs compared to Astartes) they used the larger Astartes captain(s) (Ingo Pech I think it was?) or Omegon.



ckcrawford said:


> I wish he said that, but if your talking about the interview with Dan Abnett made a while ago, he said the it would be a "shame" if they didn't go further with their story. Don't worry like everything else there still is room for disapointment.


True, although I've spoke to both Abnett and Mcneill, and they both think that its very likely the Alpha Legion will get another Heresy novel at some point. Which is needed I think, considering _Legion_ didn't include the Heresy at all, only the build up to it and the Alpha Legion's adventures just prior to it. After all we still havn't a clue what they really got up to throughout the Heresy (bar general sabotage and ambushing the Space Wolves).



Phoebus said:


> Rather, along the lines that another poster offered, I think the true reflection of the "One Primarch, Two Bodies" concept can be found in the lessening of their respective power the farther one is from the other.


I like that interpretation.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No, a lot of Alpha Legion captains posed as Alpharius on several occasions. Its just for more official occasions when possibly a smaller Astartes may not pass as easily as a Primarch (due to individuals being present who were more aware of the height/strength/nature/aura of Primarchs compared to Astartes) they used the larger Astartes captain(s) (Ingo Pech I think it was?) or Omegon.


It was those situations I was referring to, actually. I`m well aware that they almost always claim to be "Alpharius" to an outsider. Should`ve made that clearer, my bad.unish:


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

...is it wrong that whenever I see this thread's title, I think of the _original_ Alpha Twins? That is, the pair of Alpha-Plus psykers that look like two innocent little girls but wander around leaving Black Ships nothing but frozen chunks of ice?


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## deathwatch_v (Mar 18, 2010)

I think to answer the question, is Alpharius and Omegon equal or double compared to other primarchs, we should think of when the Emp. was making the primarchs.

I can only guess, but i would probably say that when the Emp. was creating them he put the same amount of energy into each of the capsules. From which in 19 other cases only 1 primarch was birthed (that we know of). So that would mean that you should probably say that when alpha and omega are together they equal 1 primarch not 2. 

However, im sure if there are any twins on Heresy Online they would tell us extremely quickly that they are a complete person and in no way half of another.... so that would lend support to Alpha omega being more powerful than a normal primarch (ha i said normal and primarch in the same sentence) and for Alpharius and omegon to be Primarch worthy in their own right. 

In my opinion i would go with the first option. That the same amount of energy was put into a capsule and 2 beings came out. This could also explain how so many normal Space Marines in the alpha legion could pretend to be the Primarch, maybe the physical stature of the 2 primarchs was less than could be expected and so could be impersonated more easily (a task i would say would be next to impossible with any other primarch). 

I mean it wouldn't help the Alpha legions secretive nature and tactics, if all the other legions had to do to find out who was the real primarch was hand out a photo of how big alpharius was in comparison to other marines. This would lead me to think of Alpharius and Omegon as being short in comparison to their brothers.....only my opinion though


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## grimdarkness (Apr 19, 2010)

were they created as twins, and if so, why?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

grimdarkness said:


> were they created as twins, and if so, why?


Quite simply we don't know. Alpharius seems to think that the Emperor is unaware of Omegon (from _Legion_). Yet in _A Thousand Sons_ there is a subtle hint which could indicate that the Emperor was aware they were twins, and this could either mean he engineered them as twins or became aware of it after Alpharius was discovered.


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## Cyrion (Apr 17, 2010)

Mossy Toes said:


> ...is it wrong that whenever I see this thread's title, I think of the _original_ Alpha Twins? That is, the pair of Alpha-Plus psykers that look like two innocent little girls but wander around leaving Black Ships nothing but frozen chunks of ice?


You're not alone :grin:


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## candykane (Apr 28, 2010)

What role do you think they played during the Heresy?
the second edition chaos codex states:
they clashed with loyalists on Istvaan V, victorius on Tallarn, Yarant and other smaller out posts. then went to the ultimar section and got separated from horus and started doing there own thing. 
to day they have contacts with loads of chaos cults, and demon cults. doing the thing behind the scenes.


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## Silensedge (Apr 2, 2010)

The Alpha Legion still cry "For the Emperor!" when charging into battle and it is said that the Primarch was faced with a decision of; Fall into heresy or fight for the Emperor and the Imperium will fall. The decision made was to turn to chaos so that the Imperium may strive onwards. Now there is controversy over whether they are still loyal to them Emperor or not so, because of your confusion over the role they played in the Horus Heresy, I think that they ambushed the Space Wolves for a possible of three reasons:

1. They attacked the Space Wolves to try and appear on the side of Chaos so the other forces of chaos did not turn on them.

2. They attacked the Space Wolves for being fooled by Horus with the Thousand Suns. They may have used Chaos as an excuse to get some sort of revenge for their brethren.

And

3. Alpha Legion seem to do things to further their own ends.. They may have been on the same side as the Space Wolves but assaulted them anyway and in doing so they may have averted or created something else. Alpha Legion changed to chaos to HELP the Imperium and maybe assaulting the Space Wolves did something as well. Possibly delayed the Space Wolves from getting to a battle and in doing so saving them as a whole?


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I believe that the Alpha Legion are still loyalist to the Emperor and the Imperium of Man.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

How were the wolves fooled? If they were wouldn't it be reasonable to believe that any other legion would be aswell? He recieved an order from a superior; why question it? Also ,the wolves didn't need to be fooled into attacking the sons, only given an excuse.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Silensedge said:


> Alpha Legion changed to chaos to HELP the Imperium


You seem to have the wrong end of the stick. The Cabal offered Alpharius two options: 

1) if he joined Horus - The Emperor would be killed and Horus would take over the Imperium, but he would be racked by guilt and would purge the entire human species in a few generations. Chaos would burn brighter than ever but would then die out with humanity.

2) If he stayed loyal to the Emperor, they foresaw that the Emperor would give his life to defeat Horus and that although the Imperium would endure for millennia it would eventually crumble and Chaos would ascend.

We don't know what choice Alpharius makes (personally I think he made himself a third option!) - But his actions at the end of _Legion_ implies he chose option one. He didn't join Horus to save or help the Imperium, if he chose option one he was willing to sacrifice the Imperium and Humanity as a whole to defeat Chaos.



Silensedge said:


> I believe that the Alpha Legion are still loyalist to the Emperor and the Imperium of Man.


All of them? Even the ones featured in Dawn of War, and the Warbands/Cells that are led by Daemon Princes?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I agree here, all indications seem to indicate option one. Even though he derped it up, but then again that could have been Horus`s fault.

Sacrifice humanity to save everyone else. Yes, save all the ingrates who we have been trying to kill, I can see why this was a difficult choice for him. Personally, I would have made the choice in a heartbeat (because I have no heart:biggrin but my point is...


...I forget. Oh that`s right, humanity sucks. I`ll be on pointless venting for a few minutes...


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## hummus (May 4, 2010)

candykane said:


> What role do you think they played during the Heresy?
> the second edition chaos codex states:
> they clashed with loyalists on Istvaan V, victorius on Tallarn, Yarant and other smaller out posts. then went to the ultimar section and got separated from horus and started doing there own thing.
> to day they have contacts with loads of chaos cults, and demon cults. doing the thing behind the scenes.


Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire... The A-Team.
they could so be the a team


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Nice! :laugh: +rep.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Given those two options, im personally convinced Alpharius chose option three. Or rather made an option three for himself viable.

The true extents and purposes of option three are not known currently, but I think its within his character to have shunned the first two and made a third.

And by the way, Chapter 7 of Legion is a magical chapter and really gives us a lot of insight into the Alpha Legion's philosopy, which then also helps us to determine their ultimate course of action.


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## deathwatch_v (Mar 18, 2010)

I love the Alpha Legion just for the sheer mystery. Everything about them is smoke and mirrors.

Legion by Dan Abnett saved the alpha legion for me. I didn't like them before (being a little bit of a Imperium fan boy) but the book has cast a light on so many of their layers and riddles that camouflaged the Alpha legion, its almost impossible not to be totally drawn into the debate about what they are trying to do in the 41st millenium. 

IMO they are the most interesting of the legions atm... i know with every new HH novel the pendulum shifts to the new shiny side of the heresy coin, but i think Legion will be tuff to beat, and the Alpha legions intrigue hard to top.


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