# The Expendable Space Marines



## Warboss Dakka (Jan 1, 2007)

A discussion sprung up a while ago about space marines and their opening movie in DOW. People were musing about how a good sized Ork mob cut a full squad of marines apart. I quickly came the the orks defence and showed how there was no reason the marines should done as well as they did but the whole thing left me feeling like they might have a point. These marines, towering above their enemies with devestatingly powerful bolters, die by the droves. It seems like butchering whole companies of space marines is a perfectly normal occurance in 40k. While I understand why the game is balanced the way it is and why movie marines are a set of special rules and why all the other races can rain death down on marines... does anyone else feel that they've somehow lost that mystique about them being Gods among men? 

Perhaps it is simply to do with the number of people that play them. Perhaps we've all played one too many battles with or against them. Perhaps they've become so run of the mill that our imaginations are failing to grasp the fact that these are towering warriors capable of laying waste to thousands of tyranids, whole mobs of orks and entire worlds of traitorous guard. When I first started 40k, I began with Crimson Fists. Reading the Space Marine fluff made me love playing them. Now, these several years later, I just feel like people are looking across the table at yet another marine player. It's disheartening.


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

I think what a lot of folks fail to see is that the same squad of marines, while seeming put down was actually probably 50% combat effective at the point where the dude raised the banner at the end of the scene.

Due to them self healing and surviving things that would kill a normal man.

Of course, they don't want to give the impression that Astartes would walk through the same squad of orks. Maybe they wanted an even fight in the intro movie; give and take, orc goes down, a marine goes down so it seems like Orcs are cool to play too.

I mean, in DoW and in 40k on the table, an Astartes is a tough opponant. If you used some sort of campaign rule where after every battle a portion of your army that was "killed" is patched up and ready for the next fight...astartes would dominate due to their ungodly toughness, extra organs, self healing etc.

I dunno. I still think of Astartes as supermen, when on the field or in fluff, or in video games.


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

In DoW terms, the key issue waas that the team that created the video had only two weeks to learn enough about 40K to make it, including the actual time to create the video.

Don't forget, though, for each piece of media undermining the Marines, there are two pages fanboy garbage overwhelming it.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> Now, these several years later, I just feel like people are looking across the table at yet another marine player.


Unfortunately that is exactly what they are doing. Marines, either Imperial or Chaos are the primary sellers for GW and you just always feel like you are playing nothing but sometimes. Between that and game balance there is really nothing to show them as being so much more powerful than anything else as you have become accustomed to seeing your army die in front of your eyes 

As for that DoW intro movie, I love it. I mean it just rocks, Marine death notwithstanding. Top notch quality. I for one wouldn't have a problem watching a movie for 40k at that quality level at all.


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

A full feature length film, animated to the same quality as the DoW intro movie...I know 40k fans would dig it. Maybe even more, scooping up some of the sci-fi fringe folks. It's certainly on my "I Wish" list.

I mean, they are putting out a Dragons of Autumn Twilight (dragonlance) animated film, why not something 40k related?


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

They are??? Seriously??

/me begins to do his Dear God Please dance


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

http://www.dragonlance-movie.com/
Fo reals


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Kiefer Sutherland as Raistlin!!! Rino Romano as Caramon ......omg....omg...

...

(Drangonlance fanboy aneurism in progress)


....


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## Warboss Dakka (Jan 1, 2007)

What the crap? I'd not heard about this either. Man I love the old Dragonlance novels.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Heh, we should take the Dragonlance stuff to a new thread and get back on topic, that being that Space Marines don't really seem like the Gods amoung men that they should be.


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

That's often because they're up against other Marines, endless hordes of bugs, an ancient race with technology thousands of years better and vast amounts of experience, sixty million yesr old robots from the most technologically advanced society ever to emerge in the galaxy, and an irritating that that's far more powerful in rules terms than it should be.

Then, they fight IG, and they feel right again.


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## Kayback (Jan 18, 2007)

Yeah, in the board game everything is more or less balanced.

It sucks, IMHO they took a couple of steps backwards when they oversimplified from 2nd ed. The races having different movement for one example. 

They've now standardised it. Drawing everything closer together.

The differences between the armies is hardly worth noticing any more.

KBK


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

The Wraithlord said:


> > Now, these several years later, I just feel like people are looking across the table at yet another marine player.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately that is exactly what they are doing. Marines, either Imperial or Chaos are the primary sellers for GW...


If you look closely enough GW really wants you to have two armies; a marine army and something else.


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## Warboss Dakka (Jan 1, 2007)

I think that's the case as well, and they have pretty much gotten that out of the player base. I don't know many long term players who don't play marines of one flavor or another. I wish they'd gone a different direction with Tau, but it is nice to see something besides marines once in a while.


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## Anphicar (Dec 31, 2006)

Warboss Dakka said:


> What the crap? I'd not heard about this either. Man I love the old Dragonlance novels.


Agreed!

OMG.

Im so excited!


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## Cadian81st (Dec 24, 2006)

pathwinder14 said:


> The Wraithlord said:
> 
> 
> > > Now, these several years later, I just feel like people are looking across the table at yet another marine player.
> ...


God that's so true.


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## TwistedDarkness (Jan 1, 2007)

I think Space Marines are very inaccurately portrayed in the Video Games and even some books. An Astartes is a god, his armor impenetrable, his weapon the Emperor's Wrath Incarnate. He can breathe easy, even when his trachea is severed. He can eat an enemy and live his memories. He can ignore wounds that would kill a man many times. He is an unstoppable force of the Emperor's Will.


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

Good luck portraying that in a game where stats effectively have four values for almost every unit.


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## LongBeard (Dec 22, 2006)

> He can breathe easy, even when his trachea is severed. He can eat an enemy and live his memories. He can ignore wounds that would kill a man many times. He is an unstoppable force of the Emperor's Will.


But yet can still go down to a conscripts bayonet!
Enough said! :wink:


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

Guess that was the emperor's will too.


Thing is. Astartes are supermen. Sure they are. But the galaxy is filled with badass xenos, and heretics.

SM usually take out a number of bugs, waste Tau in CC, waste IG or traitor guard. All the Xenos though are the Uber enemies. You think there are only Tyrannids, Necrons, Tau, Eldar and Orcs around? I'm sure there are lots of unwritten races that don't even make a footnote in the history books. The five main Xenos races are the really big and powerful ones, and it makes sense that it would take humanities finest defenders (Astartes) to equal them where it takes a vast number of humanities standard forces to even hold them at bay (IG).

Anyhow, that's the perspective I take with Astartes. I still see them as superheroes.

Am I in de Nile?

[don't answer that]


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## Siegfried (Jan 4, 2007)

Good post.

Reminds me of the actual thing in Dawn of War.

First time seeing a squad of Guardsmen going against a Space Marine squad and lasting more than a few seconds.

I understand for balance issues, but fluffwise wouldnt the bolters tear a Guardsmen squad to pieces in a matter of moments?


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

The poor squad of guardsmen wouldn't stand a chance. They'd be saying "Oh Bollux! It's an Astartes! Run...[BOOM] " as the bolter shells go explodo.

...and then they'd run.


...into a Commissar!

[BOOM]

It sucks to be a guardsman.


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## LongBeard (Dec 22, 2006)

> ...and then they'd run.
> 
> 
> ...into a Commissar!
> ...


 :lol: 
I suppose In game terms when a SM does actually go down to enemy fire/combat there not necessarily dead Just healing themselves for the next battle / waiting for their local apothecary to do the rounds.


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

Aye, removed as a Casualty just means the model takes no further part in the game, it is knocked unconscious, has it's legs blown off, is killed, etc.

For IG I'd imagine 80% of the Casualties die.
For SM's 80% live.

But that can't be represented in a 40k game.

That is what makes Marines super soldiers, Guard fight a battle they will always take a lot of KIA's. Marines will have 1 or 2 on a bad day.

And you also have to factor in strategy, again not representable in a 40k game. A Guard army will hold trenches, storm entrenched positions- all bloody and attritional actions.

Marines will strike rapidly behind enemy lines, at isolated garrisons, withdraw before reinforcements can arrive to overwhelm them, repeat somewhere else. Perhaps fighting 3-5 actions a day, where Guard would fight an action every few days/weeks having prepared all the troops, stockpiled ammo and recovered from the last engagement.


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## Siegfried (Jan 4, 2007)

Elchimpster said:


> The poor squad of guardsmen wouldn't stand a chance. They'd be saying "Oh Bollux! It's an Astartes! Run...[BOOM] " as the bolter shells go explodo.
> 
> ...and then they'd run.
> 
> ...


I <3 the Commisars! 

Favorite scene in the game when you attack the I.G Capital and the Guardsmen in the ranks comes forward and is like "But sir..." and the Commisar just blows him away and shouts "He who will not serve against the enemy will serve on the firing line!" So badass xD

One thing that bothered me about the video for Dark Crusade is how often the Necron's were getting back up (Which isnt that how it is fluffwise?) but in the game, you dont really see it at all. (Ive seen a wraith piece itself together 2 or 3 times, but never Warriors).


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

In multi-player I've had Necron opponents do it pretty often. maybe it's the difficulty setting: more difficult, more often raisings.


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## Severian (Jan 22, 2007)

As previously stated these marines are gods among men (compare them with IG). The fact that they also seem to die a lot is because they are fighting aliens, monsters, demons, sorcerers, demi-gods or even combinations of the aforementioned. You bet your ass they are superhuman! I mean have you seen what an ork\demon prince\ genestealer looks like?

Need to be pretty special to survive that encounter.


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## Siegfried (Jan 4, 2007)

Severian said:


> As previously stated these marines are gods among men (compare them with IG). The fact that they also seem to die a lot is because they are fighting aliens, monsters, demons, sorcerers, demi-gods or even combinations of the aforementioned. You bet your ass they are superhuman! I mean have you seen what an ork\demon prince\ genestealer looks like?
> 
> Need to be pretty special to survive that encounter.


Thats true : P.

Id hate to be traitor guardsmen or some-such going up against a Space Marine company.

Imagine if Germany had a Space Marine company at D-Day? Hee hee.


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## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

Little off topic but answering the question on DoWC about necrons "well be back" wraiths and flayed ones can come up 2~3 times because their base "well be back" chances are higher, well alot, but than you will see warriors do the same they just need a lord with a ressurection orb nearby as the orb passivly increases the "well be back" chances for necron infantry, w/o a lord warriors have sucky chances, immortals slightly better the same with pirayah or how ever you spell it >.>


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## Siegfried (Jan 4, 2007)

DaemonsR'us said:


> Little off topic but answering the question on DoWC about necrons "well be back" wraiths and flayed ones can come up 2~3 times because their base "well be back" chances are higher, well alot, but than you will see warriors do the same they just need a lord with a ressurection orb nearby as the orb passivly increases the "well be back" chances for necron infantry, w/o a lord warriors have sucky chances, immortals slightly better the same with pirayah or how ever you spell it >.>


"Pariah" I believe ^_^.


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

I knew they were going to do something like this sooner or later, it was inevitable with all the people playing warhammer and particularly 40k. its going to be awsum if and when they make a full length 40k movie


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