# The identity of Janus, the first Grey Knights Supreme Grand Master



## Angel of Blood

Yep, yet again another Grey Knights thread(i've finally gotten hold of the codex)

So i've seen on other threads about people talk about Janus, and how he is one of the eight Astartes selected to be the first Grey Knights by Malcador, and indeed their leader. Now people seem to automatically have added him to the list of the astartes we know will make up the eight. Garro, Qruze, Loken, Rubio and Varren. People saying this logically assume then that none of the aforementioned five will be the grand master and only two more of the eight need to be revealed. But on the very same page it mentions that the Grey Knights are given new names(holy names at that) when they become Grey Knights.

Now would you believe, Janus is of course a holy name, in actual fact its the god of begininngs, quite fitting wouldn't you say? So what's to say that Janus is not infact Garro, Qruze or the others, renamed once(if) they become Grey Knights.

Just a thought.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Garro becomes one of the first Inquisitors I'd say. There's been absolutely no mention of him having any psychic powers whatsoever. While he did go looking for that smurf psyker in the audio drama, that was just a recruitment mission for the GKs. Besides, he and Qruze were introduced to the Emperor seperate to the eight marines who would become the first GKs, which kind of rules them out of being GKs.


----------



## Phoebus

I agree with your assessment.

Boring, but there you have it! :biggrin:

Cheers,
P.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Khorne's Fist said:


> Garro becomes one of the first Inquisitors I'd say. There's been absolutely no mention of him having any psychic powers whatsoever. While he did go looking for that smurf psyker in the audio drama, that was just a recruitment mission for the GKs. Besides, he and Qruze were introduced to the Emperor seperate to the eight marines who would become the first GKs, which kind of rules them out of being GKs.


Pray do tell where it says Qruze and Garro were presented seperatly? The Knights codex states that 12 individuals were presented to the Emperor. Four nobels/administrators who would go on to found the Inquisition and eight astartes who would go on to found the Grey Knights.

I'd be more than willing to accept that even though some of the astartes aren't psykers(Garro, Qruze, Varren, Loken), that they would still go on to found the Grey Knights, every Knight after them being psykers. Note he also went to recruit Varren and Loken, neither of whom are psykers, yet Malcador wants them.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

It's in the HHCC book, if I remember correctly. I posted direct quotes in an old thread, I'll have a route around see if I can find it.

EDIT: Found it.



> In HHCC, page 324, the Emperor tells Malcador "You must draw about you men of character, skill and determination. These men are to be rigorously tested and trained to ennsure they are of the highest caliber and that their loyalty to me is unshakeable. These men will be the cadre of an elite of investigators whose role is to root out heresy and treachery wherever it may hide"
> 
> then, on page 404 of Eisenstein Malcador tells Garro, Qruze and Kendel "There is a matter to which you will be set... the Imperium requires men and women of inquisitive nature, hunters who might seek the witch, the traitor, the mutant, the xenos... who could root out the taint of any future treachery: a duty to vigilance" Is this no practically the mission statement of the Inquisition?
> 
> Then, on page 359 of HHCC, Malcador presents 12 people to the Emperor, 4 of whom are to be the investigators the Emperor was looking for, and 8 of them are space marines "blessed with paranormal skills, kept dormant in respect of your previous commands...These skills are most apt in combating the horrors that have recently emerged from the warp."
> 
> So, IMO, while not mentioned by name, the four are Garro, Qruze and co, the first Inquisitors, and the eight are the first GKs. Seeing as how it's never mentioned anywhere that Garro or Qruze are any kind of psykers, latent or otherwise, it seems logical that the 8 are different marines that were known to be psychic, but were kept dormant because of the Emperor's decree.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Nowhere in any of those passages state Garro and Qruze are presented seperately. Once again, the four are stated to not be Astartes. And would you know, parts of that description fit the Grey Knights pretty well.


----------



## Djinn24

i like your theory and I think it has legs but will it stand on it own? I hope later on in t he series they release more on the founding of the GKs.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

It's not mentioned if the four are marines or not.

The fact that it's to Qruze, Kendel and Garro that Malcador mentions needing "men and women of inquisitive nature" to hunt for heretics and traitors is enough for me. 

And, once again, there's not a shred of proof anywhere that Qruze, Loken or Garro possess any psychic skills. If they did they would have ended up as Librarians, not company captains. And they certainly weren't repressed psykers, as they were captains long before the council of Nikea and the repressing of the Legion's librarians. Qruze had been a captain for decades, if not centuries by then.


----------



## Angel of Blood

The Grey Knights codex explicitly states that the four were not astartes. There has never been a recorded piece of fluff showing an astartes to be an Inquisitor, they just don't fit the role of it either. Astartes just aren't meant to, dedigned to or have the mentality to be Inquisitors. Whose to say that the first eight have to be psykers? Nowhere does it state that, stands to reason though that they could use such steadfast loyalists to start up an organisation like the Grey Knights that needs absoloute loyalty. Varren and Loken certainly aren't psykers, why is Malcador getting them fetched aswell, so they can be Inquisitors? Doubtful.


----------



## Uber Ork

*Khorne's Fist*, I'm a little confused. You say this...


Khorne's Fist said:


> So, IMO, while not mentioned by name, the four are Garro, Qruze and co, the first Inquisitors, and the eight are the first GKs. Seeing as how it's never mentioned anywhere that Garro or Qruze are any kind of psykers, latent or otherwise




And then you also quoted this...


Khorne's Fist said:


> Then, on page 359 of HHCC, Malcador presents 12 people to the Emperor, 4 of whom are to be the investigators the Emperor was looking for, and 8 of them are space marines "blessed with paranormal skills, kept dormant in respect of your previous commands...These skills are most apt in combating the horrors that have recently emerged from the warp."



So, if we know (A) that Garro and Qruze were presented, and (B) that the 8 space marines presented were "blessed with paranormal skills, _*kept dormant*_ in respect of your previous commands," then why couldn't Garro or Qruze be one of the 8 founding members of the GK's and potentially one of them having their name changed to Janus? 

I mean wouldn't _"paranormal skills kept dormant"_ be the same thing as _"latent"_ psychic powers? Seeing that the word latent means "existing but not yet developed or manifest; hidden; concealed," it seems reasonable to me that Garro and Qruze who were presented to the Emperor could be "blessed with paranormal skills kept dormant" (i.e. possessed latent psychic powers).


I'm not sure why what *Angel of Blood* is proposing couldn't be the case?





.


----------



## Deadeye776

It would make sense if you listened to the audio drama's about Garro. He's got a hard on for Mortarion so the fact that's who kills Janus would make sense as Nathaniel trying to gain vengence and Kaldor having to avenge him. It seems like a good theory to me.


----------



## Lord Lorne Walkier

Angel of Blood said:


> Whose to say that the first eight have to be psykers? Nowhere does it state that, stands to reason though that they could use such steadfast loyalists to start up an organisation like the Grey Knights that needs absoloute loyalty. Varren and Loken certainly aren't psykers, why is Malcador getting them fetched aswell, so they can be Inquisitors? Doubtful.





Khorne's Fist said:


> And, once again, there's not a shred of proof anywhere that Qruze, Loken or Garro possess any psychic skills. If they did they would have ended up as Librarians, not company captains. And they certainly weren't repressed psykers, as they were captains long before the council of Nikea and the repressing of the Legion's librarians. Qruze had been a captain for decades, if not centuries by then.





Khorne's Fist said:


> Garro becomes one of the first Inquisitors I'd say. There's been absolutely no mention of him having any psychic powers whatsoever. While he did go looking for that smurf psyker in the audio drama, that was just a recruitment mission for the GKs. Besides, he and Qruze were introduced to the Emperor seperate to the eight marines who would become the first GKs, which kind of rules them out of being GKs.



There certanly has been mention of Garro and Loken having psyker powers, if you are able to read between the lines. The authors have gone to great lengths to obscure the references but they are there. If you have your mind set that they are not psykers then when you read the hints you probably think its just more words in the book. But if you read them with the idea that they are psykers they appear different, like using a black light to go over a room to see the biological matter. Ive been saying this for over 2 years now. People think I'm crazy but that's OK.

Hints that Garro is a psyker:

1) In Flight of the Eisenstien. When Garro reaches the planet were the Sisters of Silence take away his charges, Garro has a strange feeling around the Sisters. I do not have that book any more but any who do, would you please look for the passage I'm thinking of?

2) In Garro: Legion of One. (Audio Drama) Track 4, from 2:00 - 4:00 Garro picks up a Aquila from a dead guardsmen hands. He then says "The Emperor protects". Rubio finds out through his own powers that these were indeed the last words of the man and asks Garro how he could know that. Garro frowns and says "It dose not matter". Now i bet some will say that this is just a happenstance. Garro like allot of other people know that the saying and the icon go together, so it is likely coincidence. But when asked about it by Rubio he frowns and dismiss it. I think he is hiding his abilities from Rubio. The power to read items that held importance to the people who carried them has been used many times in 40k. 

In the RPG Dark Heresy, pg 172. Psychometry: Intense displays of emotion leave a psychic "residue" on objects and places exposed to them. Similarly, anything that has been actively carried or used by an individual for a long time will eventually pick up similar psychic impressions. With this power, you can read the psychic traces that others leave behind, giving you images directly connected to the place or object in question. These traces often take the form of sensory data. For example, a diviner may taste the hot blood-tang of murder, or smell the rank sweat-stench of desperation."

Hints Loken is a psyker:
1) Horus Rising: Loken joins the Mournival. As he approaches the others he gets a bad feeling. During the ceremony he has a vision of the future that turns out to be true. 

2) I also say that Loken's first duel with Lucius he used a Precog strike to win.

3) Galaxy in Flames: Loken finds the temple on the Vengeful Spirit. As he approaches it he gets another bad feeling. He then fights off the control of the Book of Lorgar.

4) Garro: Legion of One: Loken is described on a number of occasions as having a "strong mind". Rubio is first detects Loken through the strong interference of all the dead, Track 7. Later Track 10, Loken mind closes off and Rubio is unable to touch it. He said his mind was like a great maelstrom.

Of the 12 people taken before the Emperor, 8 were Astartes. This has been made clear in the GK Codex and the Collected Visions. 
My list of the 8 Astartes:
Garro = Janus.
Loken = Cerberus
Tarvitz
Qruze
Verran
Rubio
Arvida
Tarrasch


----------



## darkreever

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> 1) In Flight of the Eisenstien. When Garro reaches the planet were the Sisters of Silence take away his charges, Garro has a strange feeling around the Sisters. I do not have that book any more but any who do, would you please look for the passage I'm thinking of?


The sisters of silence were an order of untouchables (of varying degree) were they not? Everyone has a strange feeling around such beings, they are nulls to both the warp and reality and make everyone who does not share such a trait uneasy around them. That being because all non untouchables have a measure of presence in the warp, from mighty psykers to regular people with the faintest presence.


----------



## Uber Ork

darkreever said:


> The sisters of silence were an order of untouchables (of varying degree) were they not? Everyone has a strange feeling around such beings, they are nulls to both the warp and reality and make everyone who does not share such a trait uneasy around them. That being because all non untouchables have a measure of presence in the warp, from mighty psykers to regular people with the faintest presence.


This is true. Kasper Hawser, a non psyker human in 'Prospero Burns', has a strange feeling when he's around them at Nikea. The book actually goes into great detail about this. As well, if memory serves, this also happens with the non psyker characters in 'Execution Force' when around the Culexus assassin (a null/Pariah) named Iota.


----------



## Lord Lorne Walkier

darkreever said:


> The sisters of silence were an order of untouchables (of varying degree) were they not? Everyone has a strange feeling around such beings, they are nulls to both the warp and reality and make everyone who does not share such a trait uneasy around them. That being because all non untouchables have a measure of presence in the warp, from mighty psykers to regular people with the faintest presence.


Fair enough, though as i remember the scene the Sisters also had a strange reaction directed at Garro. Again though i don't have the book and it has been over a year since i read it.


----------



## tsne16487

Im afraid there has been plenty of mention/hinting that both Loken and Garro have psychic powers. They know before things happen that things are going to happen, they predict enemy movement and counter very effectively. Garro even mind contacted the warp baby in Flight of the Eisenstien before said baby was killed.

So much mention of this by the authors that if you dont see it when reading between the lines then you will never see it, but its there.

And this is not down to their enhanced senses being Space Marines, as other marines dont get these 'Feelings' or 'warnings' like Garro and Loken do.

Admittedly I dont recall any mention of Qruze having any of this, but maybe his role in the GKs is not one of warrior/psyker. I guess well have to wait for the first Grey Knight novel of the Horus Heresy when its written.


----------



## Weapon

They all became Ultramarines.

>_>


----------



## oiad

I can't remember where it is now but someone made a really good list of candidates for 'the eight'. It was very similar to the one LLW posted above. I'd discount the idea of Garro being Janus though. My personal opinion is that unlike Garro and co, Janus is actually of GK geneseed. Because of their experience Garro, Loken and the others are just mentors sent to get the chapter started up whereas Janus is the first official SGM.



Deadeye776 said:


> It would make sense if you listened to the audio drama's about Garro. He's got a hard on for Mortarion so the fact that's who kills Janus would make sense as Nathaniel trying to gain vengence and Kaldor having to avenge him. It seems like a good theory to me.


Huh, what the sic??? You're confusing your GMs. Mortarion kills SGM *Geronitan* at Kornovin (.901 M41), not Janus. Completely different set of people by then. The personal fates of Garro and the rest of the Knights Errant, along with GM Janus post-Heresy still remains a mystery.


----------



## forkmaster

Well Garro does have a rank which some of the GK does have, battle-captain, so I would figure he became one of the first, but not the Supreme Grand Master.


----------



## MEQinc

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> 1) In Flight of the Eisenstien. When Garro reaches the planet were the Sisters of Silence take away his charges, Garro has a strange feeling around the Sisters. I do not have that book any more but any who do, would you please look for the passage I'm thinking of?


As others have mentioned this is hardly an uncommon occurance amongst individuals who have met the Sisters. The Sisters reaction to him is likely either a) they're surprised he was there b) they're surprised he survived the warp energy he was exposed to or c) not actually much of a reaction at all (I can't recall one). 



> 2) In Garro: Legion of One. (Audio Drama) Track 4, from 2:00 - 4:00 Garro picks up a Aquila from a dead guardsmen hands. He then says "The Emperor protects". Rubio finds out through his own powers that these were indeed the last words of the man and asks Garro how he could know that. Garro frowns and says "It dose not matter". Now i bet some will say that this is just a happenstance. Garro like allot of other people know that the saying and the icon go together, so it is likely coincidence. But when asked about it by Rubio he frowns and dismiss it. I think he is hiding his abilities from Rubio. The power to read items that held importance to the people who carried them has been used many times in 40k.


Psykers can sense other psykers, particularly when those psykers are using their powers. Further (and as you latter show) psykic powers in 40k are based on emotion, they have to be applied very strongly to get something as accurate as words (I'm not even sure Telepaths can read words out of a living mind, let alone a postcog pick them up latter). If Rubio can't tell that Garro's doing stuff then Rubio is really thick. Plus, Garro dismisses a guess that reveals he has fairly detailed knowledge of forbidden cult.



> Hints Loken is a psyker:
> 1) Horus Rising: Loken joins the Mournival. As he approaches the others he gets a bad feeling. During the ceremony he has a vision of the future that turns out to be true.


Admittedly, visions are pretty good. However in numerous novels characters have had visions that were given by other sources. Perhaps Chaos thought to corrupt Loken using these visions? Weaken his resolve and his trust in his brothers. Wouldn't be the first time.



> 2) I also say that Loken's first duel with Lucius he used a Precog strike to win.


Because he (an expert swordsman) managed to understand Lucius' fighting style well enough to punch him in the face? Space Marines are fighters, it's what they do; Loken is noted to be a good one; the idea that he requires future-sight to win a duel (by psuedo-cheating) is diluting his abilities.



> 3) Galaxy in Flames: Loken finds the temple on the Vengeful Spirit. As he approaches it he gets another bad feeling. He then fights off the control of the Book of Lorgar.


He's strong minded. Congrats, so are numerous non-psykic characters. Particularly Space Marines.



> 4) Garro: Legion of One: Loken is described on a number of occasions as having a "strong mind". Rubio is first detects Loken through the strong interference of all the dead, Track 7. Later Track 10, Loken mind closes off and Rubio is unable to touch it. He said his mind was like a great maelstrom.


This is a more impressive feat of mental strength. However it does not suggest psykic powers so much as impressive self-control and mental discipline. Non-psykic humans can be taught to do this (all Inquisitors are) it seems easily possible that Loken learned it himself, especially given the number of fights he's had with daemons.


Basically, while it is possible that Loken and Garro are psykers I think that thus far they have simply been hinted to have exeptional mental strength. Which you would want in both an Inquisitor and a GK. Really, this has no bearing on whether or not they could become founding GK as the everybodies-a-psyker thing could come in at any point I just thought I'd mention it.


----------



## Angel of Blood

oiad said:


> I can't remember where it is now but someone made a really good list of candidates for 'the eight'. It was very similar to the one LLW posted above. I'd discount the idea of Garro being Janus though. My personal opinion is that unlike Garro and co, Janus is actually of GK geneseed. Because of their experience Garro, Loken and the others are just mentors sent to get the chapter started up whereas Janus is the first official SGM


Janus is one of the original eight though according to the codex. All eight having been gathered from the original legions.

I also wouldn't include Arvida myself, just can't see any of the Thousand Sons being accepted back or wanting to go back after the loyalists destroyed their world.


----------



## SoulGazer

Perhaps the strong will some of the non-psyker Astartes allowed them to develop full psyker abilities after training in the warp for so long when Titan was sealed off? Maybe they weren't all psykers to begin with but once the GKs emerged from the warp they had all changed into them. Who knows the full extent of the crazyness Malcador did to Titan?


----------



## Black Steel Feathers

Just a quicky, isn't Janus a two-faced god- which is basically another was of calling someone a liar? And why did my mind suddenly chuck out the though 'Janus is a very Alpha Legion name' when I read the title?

...Probably because I'm tired and hungry. I also thought 'I wonder if Ferrus' arms attract magnets', so nothing I say right now can be taken seriously.


----------



## Lord Lorne Walkier

Angel of Blood said:


> I also wouldn't include Arvida myself, just can't see any of the Thousand Sons being accepted back or wanting to go back after the loyalists destroyed their world.


I just noticed where Garro went. Calth, Istvaan, why not Prospero? If he did would he not find Arvida? Seems to fit for me. We know Arvida lives and that Garro is going to places where the Legions fought the great battles. If Arvida dose not make it i will have to go back to Mhotep... That was not a popular choice. Yes the 1k Sons had it bad but did Arvida have it any worse then Loken? Yes the 1k Sons had a bad name but the Sons of Horus had the wost. If they accepted loyal Luna Wolves then i can see then giving a chance to the stay 1k Sons.



oiad said:


> I can't remember where it is now but someone made a really good list of candidates for 'the eight'. It was very similar to the one LLW posted above. I'd discount the idea of Garro being Janus though. My personal opinion is that unlike Garro and co, Janus is actually of GK geneseed. Because of their experience Garro, Loken and the others are just mentors sent to get the chapter started up whereas Janus is the first official SGM.
> .


The Eight were not new Astartes. They were ALL from the Legions. That says they cant be of any new stock if that even happens. Garro was the leader of the group that retured to terra. All of them swore an Oath of Moment on Garro's sword Libertas. He is Malcador's, Argintia Primus. He will be Janus.


----------



## oiad

Ugh, I had to go back a reread this myself. Obviously my memory is fooling me. Well, that's something else added to the fluff that I didn't really care to see; The idea of having fully-fledged GK officers that come from differing genestock, rather than ronin-like mentors assisting in a chapter's setup feels more awkward. Next it'll figure that I have misinterpreted the geneseed paragraph too - that it is a cocktail of the traitor legions...


----------



## Lord Lorne Walkier

oiad said:


> Next it'll figure that I have misinterpreted the geneseed paragraph too - that it is a cocktail of the traitor legions...


This is a possibility in my mind. Maybe the Emp did something to strengthen them some how. There is a large supply of them. I think the idea that the geenseed was corrupted is just Imperial propaganda. good cocktail though... Luna Wolf, Emperors Children, World Eaters, Death Guard, 1k Sons, Iron Warrior, (Ultra Marines?)


----------



## Deadeye776

Who in bloody hell are the Knights Sigillite and why hasn't whoever came up with that name been castrated? They were called the Knights Errant by Garro himself on both audio drama's first by an ultra smurf captain and then by Garro. If Janus isn't dead than what the hell is all this fuss about Kaldor Draigo gaining vengeance on Mortarion for killing Janus by carving "JANUS" into Mortarion's heart.


----------



## Deadeye776

Also I can't see any TS marines being accepted into the Grey Knights. They are tweice damned. The natural genetic instability now that Tzeetch stopped helping them stop it is the first. Next would be that Magnus had sold his soul from the beginning to Tzeentch before the TS even got involved in the crusade.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Deadeye776 said:


> Also I can't see any TS marines being accepted into the Grey Knights. They are tweice damned. The natural genetic instability now that Tzeetch stopped helping them stop it is the first. Next would be that Magnus had sold his soul from the beginning to Tzeentch before the TS even got involved in the crusade.


uhhhhm no .... He tried to warn the Emperor that Horus had turned against him via the Warp and fucked up the humans webway portal that the Empy was building. Pissed the Empy off and he sent Leman Russ to fetch him and Horus intercepted him and convinced Leman to destroy Propero. Magnus was stuck between a rock and a hardplace. Stay loyal and perish to the man, or turn evil ( they have good cookies ) and survive.


----------



## Deadeye776

SPOILER ALERT










In the Thousand Sons AFTER he sent the message you know that was Tzeentch who helped him screw himself over by giving him the power he needed to penetrate the wards around the throne room. When he's realized how much he screwed up THAT'S when you realize how damned he and his legion are. From the beginning the genetic instability in his legion should have seen them destroyed. Magnus would not allow this and made a pact with Tzeentch to spare his legion. That thing talking to him is Tzeentch and it tells him that he has nothing to bargin with because it already has his soul.That's why initially Magnus is going to allow Russ to come and pretty much carry out the sanction. Ahriman comes to him and confirms that everything the Space wolves and the others had thought of them was actually true. Obviously he changed his mind watching his sons getting routed. Magnus and Kurze have in common that if the Heresy had never happened they both would have eventually been sanctioned. I don't know how you could have missed this if you read Thousand Sons. It was in my opnion the next best tragedy next to Fulgrim and the first three novels.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

I have always wondered how the Emperor was unaware of the pact Magnus made to save his legion and was Magnus even aware that it was Tzentech that he made the deal with?


----------



## Angel of Blood

Deadeye776 said:


> Who in bloody hell are the Knights Sigillite and why hasn't whoever came up with that name been castrated? They were called the Knights Errant by Garro himself on both audio drama's first by an ultra smurf captain and then by Garro. If Janus isn't dead than what the hell is all this fuss about Kaldor Draigo gaining vengeance on Mortarion for killing Janus by carving "JANUS" into Mortarion's heart.


He doesn't, he carves Geronitans name into Mortarions heart, at no point does it mention Janus.


----------



## Deadeye776

Well I dont' think he Emperor was seeing much of anything near the end but your right,this was well before that. Even if he couldn't divine the pact Magnus made still it should have caused a moment of pause at how a legion literally dying from mutations were suddenly cured.


----------



## Deadeye776

Just looked it up, yeah I screwed that up royally. My mistake it wasn't Janus.


----------



## oiad

Black Steel Feathers said:


> Just a quicky, isn't Janus a two-faced god- which is basically another was of calling someone a liar? And why did my mind suddenly chuck out the though 'Janus is a very Alpha Legion name' when I read the title?
> 
> ...Probably because I'm tired and hungry. I also thought 'I wonder if Ferrus' arms attract magnets', so nothing I say right now can be taken seriously.


The Alpha Legion thing is interesting, though I think the name probably refers to a more simple notion. The Roman god Janus represents beginnings and transitions. His name has much relevance to January, a month commonly associated with looking back at the past as well as into the future months. To me it seems very appropriate. The end of the Heresy heralded a new era - No longer were the Astartes so unequivocally righteous in their deeds. They have been corrupted by the dark powers. Having witnessed what such corruption has done to the Imperium (in the past) it has become Janus' duty to ensure such a schism never happens again (in the future)...

...cheesy, I know. But it works for me.

Interesting note: Janus isn't the only GK name to reference someone with two faces. I believe Mordrak gets his name from *this guy*.



Deadeye776 said:


> Who in bloody hell are the Knights Sigillite and why hasn't whoever came up with that name been castrated? They were called the Knights Errant by Garro himself on both audio drama's first by an ultra smurf captain and then by Garro. If Janus isn't dead than what the hell is all this fuss about Kaldor Draigo gaining vengeance on Mortarion for killing Janus by carving "JANUS" into Mortarion's heart.


Easy it up there with the harsh attitude fella. It's too much of a minor mistake to take your anger out on and is not worth raging about. Or should we go around shouting that you'd make a good eunuch too based on the name mix-up there?


----------



## randomperson22

fun fact "janus was the name of the greek god of choices"


----------



## Barnster

Even though the idea of the alpha legion is interesting, i think thats looking too much into subplots that weren't there

I think there has been hints about Garro as a psyker in flight especially after his conversion to believing the emperor was divine and his time with the living saint. As a deathguard Mortarion forbad the use of psykers (see a thousand sons) he expressly states that his legion would never allow them, so garro would not have been identified even if he was a latent psyker, and would have never have been trained in a librarium. There are hints in legion of 1 as noted earlier

The psychic powers of standard grey knights are actually very weak, and so it is not clear whether the psychic powers are a result of strong ability, geneseed (being supposidly from big daddy E) or faith. There is no reason to think the 1st 8 would need strong powers, just latent power. 

There are hints that loken has some form of weak psychic ability and again there is no strong evidence that the luna wolves used psykers, horus himself personally talks to loken about daemons, whereas he could have got a librarian to do it. Sign of respect possibly, but im not convinced

I generally think alot of the fandom want garro to be the 1st GK and he is traveling round with qurze in armour, bare ceremite, grey unadorned by legion identifiers, sounds very similar to GK armour..


----------



## mob16151

All of the characters mentioned so far, as GK canidates do share something in common with the 40K GK's. And that is an unshakeable faith in the Emperor. And a remarkable ability to resist Chaos.


----------



## Callistarius

I had always assumed, from the quote from Flight of the Eisenstein, that Garro, Qruze & Amandera (sp?) were to form the beginnings of the Inquisition. Specifically, I thought they'd go on to start what would become the three main orders: Garro = Ordo Malleus, Qruze = Ordo Xenos, Amandera = Ordo Hereticus. That was my immediate thought on reading that section, and to me it makes sense that the first Malleus inquisutor would induct/locate the first Grey Knights.


----------



## FORTHELION

i think i might be on drugs when im writing this, but here goes.

Has anyone else thought that Janus might be the name taken by Loken after his induction, some sort of token gesture in memory of Hastur Sejanus. 

Im not even sure i believe this though i thought id throw it out there anyway.


----------



## Lord Lorne Walkier

FORTHELION said:


> i think i might be on drugs when im writing this, but here goes.
> 
> Has anyone else thought that Janus might be the name taken by Loken after his induction, some sort of token gesture in memory of Hastur Sejanus.
> 
> Im not even sure i believe this though i thought id throw it out there anyway.


I thought at one time that Loken would be the first Grand-master. Not any more. I think Loken will be Cerberus, the name he took up in Garro: Legion of One.


----------



## brother captain sean

I know it has been a couple of years since a posting on this thread, but I think some new revelations have been presented to us. First there are some spoilers in this so be prepared.

Spoilers Spoilers Spoilers Spoilers Spoilers Spoilers 




Ok in a short story regarding the alpha legion during the Horus heresy at the end of the story it is revealed that omegon the twin primarch of the alpha legion as a suite of unadorned grey armour with no markings bidding in his chambers. I think Omegon is the first GM of the 8th brother hood. This is supported by the inscription on the monument to Khyron in the book emperors gift. If you have read vengeful spirit in the HH then you know that Qruze doesn't survive the heresy. Now I agree I think Garro might be Janus. This is based on how Mortorian talks about Janus in the audio drama heart of Mortorian. He talks as if he knew Janus on a personal level. Finally in the book pandorax we find out that one of the original 8 are still alive. He is epimetheus and he is the first GM of the 5th brotherhood. It turns out that he is Ezekial the dark angles librarian form the HH books. We also find out when he is captured by Abbadon that Loken does not survive the HH as reported by Abbadon. He also confirms that Rubio becomes one of the original 8 GMs. So in closing that is what I have gleaned from the books so far. I am very interested in your opinions or ideas.


----------



## Brother Lucian

I think you mixed up the dark angels. Ezekiel is a 40k dark angels librarian. Zahariel is the one from the heresy era. While its implied it could be him whom is Epimetheus, nothing has been confirmed there. His fate is still unknown.


----------

