# chaos lord funny thing vs new nids



## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

So i watched this game where sm lib instakilled carnifex with using the force and noticed that nids got lots of new units with multiple wounds, that can all be instakilled:S

So if im not mistaken, chaos can take 2 lords with jump packs and slaanesh daemon wep - these guys would fly around and would most likely wipe out Any multiwound model/unit on charge. HQ's? dead. Heavy choices? dead. Warriors and whatever? dead. Hive guard? dead dead dead.

Sure alot of times you will need 6's on wound, but charging both lords on same target then would make it almost certain you get atleast one 6. Hell, even if you get counter charged by something you will most likely kill it off. The expections are flying things, gaunt swarms and genestealers, but you got the rest of the army to deal with those.

I'm not exactly an expert on how nids work, so what you think? Would this be good to piss off a friend who you know plays nids?


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

MyI)arkness said:


> So i watched this game where sm lib instakilled carnifex with using the force and noticed that nids got lots of new units with multiple wounds, that can all be instakilled:S
> 
> So if im not mistaken, chaos can take 2 lords with jump packs and slaanesh daemon wep - these guys would fly around and would most likely wipe out Any multiwound model/unit on charge. HQ's? dead. Heavy choices? dead. Warriors and whatever? dead. Hive guard? dead dead dead.
> 
> ...


The "Blissgiver" has actually become useable with the release of the new Nidz. Hell, even the Asp Sorcerers in the 1ksons unit has sprung up a step. I saw a careless Trygon Prime meet its doom at one of those Sorcerers yesterday. The CSM player had a HUGE smile on his face:grin:


The Tactic idea is both good and sound, the only thing I would change is the jump pack plan. I would either give him a Steed of Slaanesh (for that extra A and better charge move) or a Bike (for extra T). Give it a try and post some results, Im considering giving this a go myself too since Im looking at what to play at the upcoming Swedish 40k Championship


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## DarKKKKK (Feb 22, 2008)

Definitely like the idea of it, I can gurantee my opponent will severely underestimate my lords if I do run them against his nids because I always have DPs


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## cafel (Dec 21, 2008)

The only thing you have to make sure to do is avoid the "little bugs". If your opponents smart you'll find your lords in a 20 gaunt tarpit if you don't manage them carefully. Watch for genestealers as well, but yeah if you're going up against MC or warrior heavy lists then it's definetly viable. I would definetly put them on a bike on give them a jump pack for the extended assault range which lessons your chance of being intercepted by an assualt unit or a throw away unit.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

MaidenManiac said:


> The "Blissgiver" has actually become useable with the release of the new Nidz. Hell, even the Asp Sorcerers in the 1ksons unit has sprung up a step. I saw a careless Trygon Prime meet its doom at one of those Sorcerers yesterday. The CSM player had a HUGE smile on his face:grin:
> 
> 
> The Tactic idea is both good and sound, the only thing I would change is the jump pack plan. I would either give him a Steed of Slaanesh (for that extra A and better charge move) or a Bike (for extra T). Give it a try and post some results, Im considering giving this a go myself too since Im looking at what to play at the upcoming Swedish 40k Championship


Hm totaly forgot about bike/steed, i think bike would be a good option - lords wouldnt really need another attack with plenty of attacks already, T helps and bike makes it easy for difficult terrain if nids decide to go hide with their tails in their back xD

I wonder though if it would be viable for balanced competetive army, i guess then only one lord should be taken, it could still be a pain for nids.

edit:


cafel said:


> The only thing you have to make sure to do is avoid the "little bugs". If your opponents smart you'll find your lords in a 20 gaunt tarpit if you don't manage them carefully. Watch for genestealers as well, but yeah if you're going up against MC or warrior heavy lists then it's definetly viable. I would definetly put them on a bike on give them a jump pack for the extended assault range which lessons your chance of being intercepted by an assualt unit or a throw away unit.


Now that i think about it, bike/steed would make it easyer to tarpit the lords, while wings would let you fly over swarm shield, then nid would have to keep a gaunt/stealer wall around his beasties, but that would let you blast template that stuff and wont let him use the gaunts for other stuff xD even more tactical advantage, this looks evil as long as rolls for daemon swords are not crap


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Have to remember that they also have Shadow in the Warp, meaning your taking those psychic tests with the Force Weapons on 3D6.

Over 50% of the time you will fail your leadership test, and considerably larger than normal chance of perils.

A Trygon charging should kill a Sorcerer anyway.
7 attacks, just over 5 hit, about 4.5 wound, even with a 4+ inv the Sorcerer should still be dead.
Even if he survives, he is hitting on 4's and wounding on 6's, then needs to pass the leadership on 3D6. Not likely to do anything at all.

Trygon deep striking then shooting. 12 shots, 6 hit, 5 wound, ~2 failed saves, dead Sorcerer.

Not to mention that if the Sorcerer gets tied up in combat with a squad of gaunts with poison and FnP, it means certain doom for him.

The idea is there though. With some lucky rolling it can work quite well, but i would NEVER rely on him being a MC killer.
The chances are unreliable enough on paper, never mind on the table itself.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

joebloggs1987 said:


> Have to remember that they also have Shadow in the Warp, meaning your taking those psychic tests with the Force Weapons on 3D6.
> 
> Over 50% of the time you will fail your leadership test, and considerably larger than normal chance of perils.
> 
> ...


Thats why chaos lords should be used x)


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

MyI)arkness said:


> Thats why chaos lords should be used x)


Even so, its still not going to work.

4 attacks
2 hit
0.33 wound
0.16 force weapon wounds (3D6 psychic test)

I wouldn't call that a reliable strategy. Its suicide.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

joebloggs1987 said:


> Even so, its still not going to work.
> 
> 4 attacks
> 2 hit
> ...


Actualy, 2 slaanesh lords with blissgivers, average of them rolling 7 attacks for daemon weps, so that makes their base attacks 3+3=6, +2 for charging, +7 for weapons, makes it 15~ attacks, most of MC's got lower than chaos lord WS, so hit on 3+, makes it 10 wounds, so its 5/3 chance of rolling 6'es, thats almost 2 wounds on MC of 6t on average. Being assaulted by mc just makes it about 1.5~ wounds to him.

You seem to keep thinking there is some sorcery involved, but blissgiver is a daemon wep that Automaticaly instant kills anything that doesnt have eternal warrior, if it just makes a wound.

And you need to destroy just 2 such targets to pay back the price of lords or already gain benefit.

Sure its not a 100% WIN button, but it can be hella fun if you just dont get bad luck with dice.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

MyI)arkness said:


> Actualy, 2 slaanesh lords with blissgivers, average of them rolling 7 attacks for daemon weps, so that makes their base attacks 3+3=6, +2 for charging, +7 for weapons, makes it 15~ attacks, most of MC's got lower than chaos lord WS, so hit on 3+, makes it 10 wounds, so its 5/3 chance of rolling 6'es, thats almost 2 wounds on MC of 6t on average. Being assaulted by mc just makes it about 1.5~ wounds to him.
> 
> You seem to keep thinking there is some sorcery involved, but blissgiver is a daemon wep that Automaticaly instant kills anything that doesnt have eternal warrior, if it just makes a wound.


I thought you need to make a leadership test to make a Force Weapon work?

Or maybe im thinking about the old 3rd ed rules.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

joebloggs1987 said:


> I thought you need to make a leadership test to make a Force Weapon work?
> 
> Or maybe im thinking about the old 3rd ed rules.


Blissgiver is not a force weapon it has special rule of pwning anything with multi wounds, i mentioned space marine librarian just because he got lucky with his force wand =]


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I've been having fun with Skulltaker for the same reason. Makes him a huge bullet magnet but on the charge he has 6 attacks at WS7 at S6. 

So if you inexplicably let Skulltaker charge your Trygons or Tervigons he should hit 4 times and instant death it twice. So if you see Skulltaker kill him with fire before he trudges his way to you.

Aramoro


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

cafel said:


> The only thing you have to make sure to do is avoid the "little bugs". If your opponents smart you'll find your lords in a 20 gaunt tarpit if you don't manage them carefully.


Right upto a point- the little bugs don't tarpit anymore. With access to poison, furious charge and potentially preferred enemy they _kill_.


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## Despoiled (Aug 23, 2009)

Last time I played the new nids I used sorcerers and foceweapons it didnt work! (I didnt know about Shadow in the warp going into the game) I think the Lord idea is great. Im going to try it next time I play them.


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## cafel (Dec 21, 2008)

OddJob said:


> Right upto a point- the little bugs don't tarpit anymore. With access to poison, furious charge and potentially preferred enemy they _kill_.


Quite possibly, but the warning is still basically the same. His MC hunter would be vunerable to anything that wasn't a low I, single multi wound target. Whether it's due to the death of his character to upgraded gaunts, or losing his lord for effectively the rest of the game, the results are still the roughly the same.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

cafel said:


> Quite possibly, but the warning is still basically the same. His MC hunter would be vunerable to anything that wasn't a low I, single multi wound target. Whether it's due to the death of his character to upgraded gaunts, or losing his lord for effectively the rest of the game, the results are still the roughly the same.


Nah. One result is frustrating and somewhat amusing, depending on whose perspective you look at it from. The the other possibility is _hilarious_.


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## xinua (Jul 2, 2008)

only problem with lords flying around doing MC hunting is that they will be prime targets for the hive guard and their impaler cannon that more or less ignore cover and then its instant death for for lords... Toughness 4 is a pain in the butt.. any tyranid player with some experience will recognize the threat 2 lords with blissgiver poses, and the bullseye on their back will be BIG..


its all good and fine dealing with a tyranid army but wont do to good in a tournament dealing with other stuff.. on the whole I think i prefer my two lash princes or my two papa nurgle princes with warptime..


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## Jernmajoren (May 5, 2009)

Daemon weapons also have the problem that they can lead to loss of ALL attacks in a phase, that said 2 lords armed with dw should be able to take on most tarpit units with their high ini and possibly lots of attacks max 20 or so combined I believe so they should be effective against nids unless the dark gods are in a bad mood.


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## Dakingofchaos (Sep 29, 2009)

am i right in thinking you cant insta-kill monsterous creatures? and arnt fexes and trygons monstrous creatures?


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

What makes you think that the instant-kill rules don't apply to MCs?
Please note that they do not have the Eternal Warrior USR.


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## Dakingofchaos (Sep 29, 2009)

but if you look in the rulebook under mounstrous creatures, it quite clearly states that you cant instant death monstrous creatures


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## Dakingofchaos (Sep 29, 2009)

oh wait, sorry, wrong rulebook XD


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

xinua said:


> only problem with lords flying around doing MC hunting is that they will be prime targets for the hive guard and their impaler cannon that more or less ignore cover and then its instant death for for lords... Toughness 4 is a pain in the butt.. any tyranid player with some experience will recognize the threat 2 lords with blissgiver poses, and the bullseye on their back will be BIG..
> 
> 
> its all good and fine dealing with a tyranid army but wont do to good in a tournament dealing with other stuff.. on the whole I think i prefer my two lash princes or my two papa nurgle princes with warptime..


Never suggested it for anything other than nids 

edit: oh yeh and i was thinking about impaler too, i guess hive guard should be atleast shot up or become the priority target of Lords, thus nid player will have to try to shoot lords, while keeping guard far enough, while trying to screen MC's, while trying to do anything to chaos forces. Thats atleast funny if you ask me


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Since this more and more derails with wrong assumptions (and assumption is the mother of all fuckups) lets have a look at the basic facts we are dealing with here, to make them damn clear to all folks:

The Chaos Lord will move as Cavalry because he has a Steed of Slaanesh, so he charges 19-24". The Steed also gives him an extra A for a total of 5+D6 I6 Attacks on the charge _(you can of course give him wings or a bike instead but this will only hamper his chances so those are worse options)_. The Daemonweapon _(Blissgiver)_ is a weapon that gives him +D6 A and makes every single one of his attacks cause Instant Death on his victim(s). This has completely nothing to do with psycic tests/powers whatsofuckingever:no:

Not a single Tyranid critter is immune to Instant Death since the release of the new Codex Tyranids:no:

Blissgiver has, up until the release of the current Tyranid Codex been utterly damn shit, since all Daemons, all Tyranids(last codex), an disproportional number of SM SCs and too many other of the games multiwound models has been immune to Instant Death.


This thread is not about the "next big thing since JoTWW", it is an observation that a certain fluffy option actually might be viable for the first time since the release of the Codex it is inside (CSM). It should also be noted that this has quite a high risk factor. If you roll a 1 for the Blissgivers extra attacks, or extremely crappy on the A's youre neck deep in shit. If youre not prepared to gamble then stay well clear of this idea.

This is not at its prime against the T6 TMCs which many people seem to believe, its at its peak against the Warriors/Lictors/Raveners/Biovores and similar T4ish multiwound models the Tyranid Codex boosts lots of. A special mention should also go to the Hive Guards since they are harmless in CC for a Chaos Lord, this is an excellent way of tarpitting/killing them, and since they only shoot 24 and you can hide in a random CSM unit, youre within charge range if they can shoot you 
While not at its best against the T6 TMCs it still holds a certain viability, you will have 8,5 A and 1 roll of 6 to wound will slay the beastie outright. Add the fact that only the Swarmlord has any IWsave at all and the potential should be clear to all 

The classical Warptimed Nurgle DP will, presuming he starts his turn outside 12" of any Synapse creature so he gets warptime predictably cast, deal a steady flow of a bit over 4 wounds on the turn he charges, which will kill 1 Warrior and wound another. The Chaos Lord will _kill_ 3 Warriors on average on his charge, and quite likely kill the remaining one(s) thanks to no retreat wounds.
Once again, this is not anything gamebreaking or any "safe bet", its a gamble that might turn out very rewarding, and also one that fits a Noise Marine army theme:good:


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

HEY GAIZ, WHAT ABOUT FABIUS BILE?
*cricket noises*

That guy is useless, except for allowing S10 power fists. *drool*
But really, you'd have to get very lucky to kill an MC with him.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Actually its not a bad chance.

Lets say you roll 4 on the Blissgiver which gives you 9 A, for calculation simplicity. You hit most MCs on 3+ so 6 A should hit statistically speaking. 1 of those to wound rolls should be a 6 and *poof* dead TMC:good:


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

MaidenManiac said:


> Actually its not a bad chance.
> 
> Lets say you roll 4 on the Blissgiver which gives you 9 A, for calculation simplicity. You hit most MCs on 3+ so 6 A should hit statistically speaking. 1 of those to wound rolls should be a 6 and *poof* dead TMC:good:


Yeah, the Blissgiver is damn good against anything that has multiple wounds, and still a solid weapon against anything that doesn't.
I'd take my Lord with a Steed of Slaanesh and the Blissgiver, it would just be an awesome image, and the extra attack helps him to pwn nubs.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Winterous said:


> Yeah, the Blissgiver is damn good against anything that has multiple wounds, and still a solid weapon against anything that doesn't.
> I'd take my Lord with a Steed of Slaanesh and the Blissgiver, it would just be an awesome image, and the extra attack helps him to pwn nubs.


Plus, there is an awesome fantasy figure that fits the Steed of Slaanesh so well!


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Masked Jackal said:


> Plus, there is an awesome fantasy figure that fits the Steed of Slaanesh so well!


I think the Possessed Marine arm holding (and merged with) a sword makes a really good Daemon Weapon too.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Wish i could get lucius on the steed xD his whip thing would be fitting as "blissgiver".


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

MyI)arkness said:


> Wish i could get lucius on the steed xD his whip thing would be fitting as "blissgiver".


His face, however, would not


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## Dakingofchaos (Sep 29, 2009)

is there actually model for slanneshi (i think thats how you spell it) steed?


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Dakingofchaos said:


> is there actually model for slanneshi (i think thats how you spell it) steed?


As I said, there's an awesome model for Warriors of Chaos in Fantasy that could easily work as a 40k steed.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Masked Jackal said:


> As I said, there's an awesome model for Warriors of Chaos in Fantasy that could easily work as a 40k steed.


http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1620205&prodId=prod1050024
You mean that beast?
I think a Seeker (what Daemonettes ride) would work best, but they don't exist anymore


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Winterous said:


> http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1620205&prodId=prod1050024
> You mean that beast?


Yep. A friend of mine has it, and it looks really cool in-person as well.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Masked Jackal said:


> Yep. A friend of mine has it, and it looks really cool in-person as well.


Yeah, I always loved it, it's just so Slaanesh!
I do miss the Seekers though, they look cool, they really need to get around to re-releasing them


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## Mud213 (Nov 20, 2008)

I know people mentioned jump packs earlier, but I really things wings would be better since you can ride up in a rhino for the first turn or two which could protect them a bit better.

Or you could through him in a Raptor squad so he (or she or them) doesn't (or don't) get one-shoted right off the bat. If you have a Raptor squad with two melta guns, they aren't going to be doing much against Nid's anyway, so they might as well come along for the ride.


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## Navarre (Mar 4, 2010)

Does the Blissgiver ignore armour saves?


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

2 Vanilla Chaos Lords with Daemon weapons.

A minimum 10 str5 no save attacks. A maximum 18 str5 no save attacks.

the Best 260 points you'll ever spend against CC armies with Crap inv saves.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Except for the turns where they don't do anything, ofc.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Thats a Given


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

So... your statement should read "a minimum of 0 attacks", no?


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Depends how crapper player you are. If you're not going to get in CC asap...then yes, 0 attacks a turn.

But, I sincerely hope people aren't that bad.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Remind me to go back and reread the fine print on daemon weapons the next time I have codii about. There was some incredibly crucial detail there that's just sitting there, full of mockery. Not remembering it is really quite embarassing.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

The 'hurting yourself' bit. Thats if you roll a 1 for the number of attacks.

That bit?


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Oh, you mean that you should have said that he has a minimum of 0 attacks in cc? :biggrin:


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

...clever


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Less than three!


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

I'm not sure what just happened.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

Lol its more like negative attacks tbh since he can hurt himself, so smth like -1 to 10 attacks


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## b.anthracis (Nov 18, 2008)

A slaanesh daemon fiend would fit as steed as well.


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