# Versus... Vampire Counts (7th)



## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Hi all,

I know there are quite a few knowledgable players here so, in a Galahad 40k style, I thought we might collect together tactics and schemes for combating some of the more difficult armies, units and characters in Fantasy.

To start off with lets look at how to fight some of the more powerful armies, then if it goes well perhaps we can expand it further, I will also make a thread (like Galahad does ) where we can collect requests for future Versus's together. Go here for the general thread.

So, VC, how do you combat an army that has devastating magic, regenerating characters, the ability to summon fresh models in to combat, mass fear causing units and plenty of very powerful special and rare choices, that together make it a top tier tournament army?


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## Ancient Tiel' a fier (May 5, 2008)

That depends very largely on the composition of the VC army. I have recently adapted my competetive undead list solving (i hope) the only two weaknesses it had. These weaknesses were, high elf spear armies (mass attacks asf and lots of access to fear immunity) and anti magic Dwarfs (again mass immunity to fear, lots of anti magic without sacrificing muscle and stuties are solid in general). 

So what other things do you all feel fight the dead well?


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

My normal VC opponent tends to field a zombie tarpit of 30-40 models and aim them at my BOrcs, then he has a Vamp count with some blood knights, a Varghulf, some dire wolves, some bats and a few units of skellies. The other characters he brings are usually more casters.

Not sure if this is standard but he seems to do ok with it. Anyway, my approach (assuming my Orcses behave themselves) is usually to get my warboss in to combat with his general, brutally simple but I have decapitated his army and forced a win a few times doing this.

What I struggle with is the magic he can bring to the table. How many dispel dice would you say are worth having in a 1500 or 2000 point army facing VC, Ancient?

Magic wise I tend to hope I get a movement spell and/or Eadbutt to deal with characters and that pesky Varghulf. My approach to the Varghulf is to try and take it out with Trolls if it is foolish enough to go near them, the Doom Diver or the Spear Chukkas.

Personally I find that the zombie and skellie units are not hard to face off with massed units of Orcs, dependent on Psychology of course, as the poor stats that they have mean I often massacre them on Combat Res.


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## kungfoomasta (May 8, 2008)

dont worry about the little ones to much as they are substandard infantry but with the vamps regenerating them watch out kill those and ignore the others and if possible kill the gereral asap the army will crumble, nothing aggervated an undead player more than haveing his general cannon sniped or ripped apart in a duel


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## Ancient Tiel' a fier (May 5, 2008)

These things are the exact problem, realistically you either have the power to shut down the magic but then dont have the muscle or you have the muscle and the magic runs riot. This is where dwarfs come in, even at 1500pts its easy to have 5 or 6 dispel dice. I agree zombies and skelingtons are poor troops, though at 4pts a zombie can be very useful. I use ghouls as apposed to skelingtons as they have significantly better stats and save for the banner out class skelingtons in every way.
As for killing the vampires and the general in particular, yes its an important thing to consider. However this is where the quality of player tells. A good VC general will bait you with the offer of his general leaving your army in bad positions as you sacrifice all to reach that general, only to find he his a powerful warrior and quite unkillable.
Over all my views on VC are that low Ld races have a real uphill struggle to face as do those that struggle to achieve magic defense and those races with high armour and good Ld do better.


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

Good point, I suspect my normal VC opponent is not the most tactically minded chap  Is there a VC unit that is a must have in your opinion? If so which and what are it's strengths and weaknesses?


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## Ancient Tiel' a fier (May 5, 2008)

I would never leave without at least 2 tarpit units of 30 zombies, preferably 3. There are however several units that either arent worth the points or devour so many points that in competetive gaming i find them an absolute no no, these are Blood Knights, spirit hosts and skelingtons (bar one tool up that makes skelingtons a res monster). I also can see why anyone with sense would pay extra points for a cairn wraith to be down graded (it says up in the book) to a banshee. Then there are a few vampire abilitys i would not go for too, cheifly lord of the dead, summon creature of the night and Hunter in the dark.


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

A good way to beat VC is with super heavy knight unit with mass static res I use grail for this, at the right point it could destroy VC general, and the VC hard hitting units. For my high elves I tend to go for mass spearmen, lots of scrolls, lots of dispell dice, magical items that end magic phasis, and a lot of magic to use drain magic.


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## Othiem (Apr 20, 2008)

For empire, magic, pie plates, and tons of attacks are my new favorite approaches. Take advantage of lore of light and prayers of sigmar that get bonuses vs undead. I use mortars and helstorms to try and take out as many units per turn as I can. I also field tons of militia now, as this helps up the body count while keeping the price low, as so many points are now going towards magic. Between militia and templates I can dish out enough damage that most of the VC magic phase is tied up in resummoning, and not tearing me a new hole. After you've dealt with the undead blocks, go after the general with as much SCR as you can muster. I still lose more than I win vs VC, but the games feel closer.


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## jax40kplyr (Sep 15, 2008)

I have to agree with Othiem - I used to think that VC lore was great - curse of years, summon undead horde, etc. Then once I started playing them and everyone else did - magic really came down to 2 spells. Vanhel and Invocation. Vampires do have a really high number of PD if they are tooled up that way, but they also pay for it in points. 
As far as the VC unit that seems to be popping up everywhere seems to be the Wight Lord with Reg banner, Vampire Lord with Grave Guard or Black Knights unit. When you figure in the high Str & killing blow, good armor saves, plus regen and the fact you can summon them back like regular skeletons, its a pretty hard unit. Throw in either the flaming banner, +1 to hit banner or the hatred banner - ouch.
Honestly the way I end up beating VC has been with Dwarves or DoC. DoC ended up sniping his VC general on a Zombie Dragon (Flamers are a wonderful thing) and Dwarves with a combination of dispel dice and warmachines. Generally out of 10-12 PD and casting IoN, he's going to get off 8 raises. If you use your 5-6 casting dice, you'll block it down to 4 going off. Average of 3 raised - 12 guys coming back a turn. 
My strategy was to concentrate fire on one unit at a time until they were all dead. Invariably though something is going to get into combat. Thats where Hammerers or runic standards come into play. With the dangerousness (and slowness of fleeing) of dwarves, I put a runic standard making me ItP on just about every unit I can. 
I do have to agree though - VC can be an EXTREMELY hard, powergaming army if played right. The codex was set up to be extremely variable and with so many options, alot of pretty nasty combos were created.


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## ROCDOCTA (Jul 20, 2007)

As a long time VC player i may have some tips to add. take what you will and discard what you dont.

my standard and devastating tourney list has 

magic: 7 power dice, 6 dispell dice, no scrolls.
specials: 2 units of 5 black knights
no rares
lord on dragon, 2 thralls
rest core (inc 2 corpse carts -2 enemy magic).

i dont have any of the usual power combos. no regen banner, no helm o command, no wights, no forbidden lore, not even a rare. not the greatest power build out there. but i concentrate on using the VC strengths and try to minimise the weakness. obvious? yes, but alot of people try and shoe horn a list into what they want. but anyway i am starting to rabbit on...

how to beat the VC

I give you my 10 commandments for beating the Bat
1. shoot or magic units till they are gone. once gone, they cant come back. commit to the battle with all. 7 pd can revive 42 grave guard a turn with some perfect luck (i would bet on 10 minimum coming back). 

The strength of their power comes from being able to replenish their damage. pure and simple. i have clawed many a major victory out of a loss by a combo of raising zombies to cap / deny quarters and healing units above half strength. 2 simple heals on a dragon can deny an oppo 138 points. a raise can claim 100 points per quarter. and i only use 7 power dice (out of a potential 17pd!)

i love creating the zombie maze to redirect units away from my flanks/into forests. especially if there are fanatics/ frenzied dudes there. They are great for anchoring units in place in a single turn by raising them and then van hels into flank, then healing them up to about 30 to 40. 

2. Any single game with VC is 3 wounds away from a bad bad loss so...Kill the general. it is worth the 1/6 chance of a look out sir to cannon snipe him. at the very least he will be more cautious if it becomes your game plan. Most VC players (inc myself) are paranoid of it and will sweat it alot. 

3. Put your warmachines on hills with skirmisher troops to the front with no spaces. Being higher than the skirm troops means that the machines may still fire esp at large targets. i love to march/ fly up behind cover and throw a couple of zombies in front of a machine to attack it next turn. 

4. get the highest leadership general possible and keep as much within 12 in as possible. syubborn/ fearless isnt needed for obviuos reasons. my best plans were stuffed by an orc on a wyvern that refused to charge my lord and kept his lads around with his great leadership.

5. use large units to prevent auto flee. i often use 10 dire wolves to simply charge smaller units on the chance that they will flee. fast cav with a 18in charge range, normally not a problem.

6. if it is obvious that he is going to van hels 2 units forward, let the first through (if you outnumber the unit or confident you wont flee), stop the second. flank charge to remove ranks and chop them up. 

7. take 2 scrolls to stop him from casting those really needed spells. do not try to dispell everything. 1st turn i throw some rubbish out there to see how my oppo will react. just see what he is casting and dispell what you must. ie if you have a level 2 slann and he has pit of shades i would save some dice for that one...

8. if you have a gunline, take some CC dudes to counter charge. when confronted with massed dwarves etc, i raise a 5d6 model line of zombies in front and heal it up. it takes a fair bit to remove that screen. this allows me to just walk up unmolested.

9. VC win through static combat res and grinding someone down. make sure you have some kind of flanker to remove their ranks.

10. have some sort of suicide squad ready to charge exposed necros, thralls etc. especially if he has gone magic heavy with little protection. thralls are still only tough 4...be careful about issuing challenges. if i am charged and in a combat i dont like, i just wait till a challenge is offered and then simply refuse it with my guy. the vampire is retired to the rear and is safe for a turn till i can heal him back up. if you do have a suicide squad, dont include a champion in it. i had a single cc lord asaulted by 3 kroxigors (1 ancient hero) and a unit of sallamanders. i challenge, and now am safe from the other attacks. i won the combat as 1 ripped the krox champ apart. i did 7 wounds with red fury and the dreadlance.

i hope that this helps you to beat the VC, or at least get into the mind of the Bat.

Spiv


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

other methods against VC, are powerful spells like flames of the phoniex, or fire wall. To desimate big zomdie units, an weeken the lords unit.


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## Amra_the_lion (May 26, 2008)

awesome breakdown ROCDOCTA, I'd rep you for it if I could

I'm suddenly able to rep you, so here it comes


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

Sweet work ROCDOCTA, have some rep


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## jman (Feb 20, 2008)

with a little luck the orc spells Brain busta (sombie slayer) gork's warpath (a little luck but pays off), and Mork wants Ya! (despite a good Inititave all you need is to get it through 1 or 2 times and you can easily kill a gerneral


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

VC are some pretty tough customers. People think that gunlines are the way to go, but they most certainly aren't. Zombies and crypt ghouls will just waltz right up to the line and start having dinner on account of the fact that very few armies can put out enough shots to completely eradicate a zombie/ghoul unit of decent size.

The way I fight them (I play High Elves) is to have a choke hold on the magic phase, as VC don't preform well in the other phases without having had a decent magic phase. Usually an archmage on moon dragon and two mages are what I field (2150pt game), and just dispel, dispel, dispel. IoN is cast on a pretty low number, which is good for VC, but also good for the enemy, as it is easier to dispel. Plus, HE have a passive bonus to dispel rolls. 

Another strategy I employ is to assassinate the general. This is best done with magic, of course. Combat vampires will wipe the floor with anything short of Tyrion, so I don't even use points on combat heroes against VC. Instead, I put all my character points into strong mages with offensive magic and gear. Throw a bunch of fireballs at a VC general and watch him literally burn to the ground. After that, spearmen/archers can wipe up the rest of the undead mess.

Of course, this doesn't work _all the time_, but hey, what plan does?


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## Gharof von Carstein (May 19, 2008)

Oke i tend to disagree a lot about whats standard in a VC army and whats not. I have been using blood knights again lately in combination with a heavy ghoul force, and let me tell you those blood knights are worth every point you spend on them! 

with blood knights you need to magic them down to size. they will probably have the banner of blood keep (3+ ward against missile and magic) but this should not deter you from throwing armour negating spells on them. 

forget about skeletons and zombies. most VC players know that actually spending points on big blocks of zombies is a big waste of points as we ussually raise them up dead easy with a necro with a sceptre de noirot. My first spell of the turn is ussually that same raise dead. Why? well VC magic is notorious and no one thinks that dispelling that raise dead is necessary! well until i let loose my other PD IoNing that unit to a gigantic size. by the time they catch on theyll waste some DD trying to stop it from happening to often. a good player will save 2 or 3 DD to stop that critical vanhels. 

another thing iv been spotting is that when dispelling raise dead and IoN people tend to use 2 dice to my one to ensure a dispel. why do you do that? just take the shot that you will dispell with one dice. every dice you waste is a extra ensurance my bound items will do what i took them for! the biggest threats in a magic phase of a VC is that book of arkhan or staff of damnation dispell that effect or feel the consequences, most VC players prey on it. 

another inside trait you should know. in small games we tend to bring necro's. these almost never get targeted if we dangle our vampires infront of your face. BIG MISTAKE! why is that necro there you think? cuz we cant effectively tool vampires for survival AND magic superiority while taking forbidden lore. Forbidden lore in case you dont know makes sure we can cast every spell in the vampire lore. having to roll for vanhels is a tricky business and we really really need that spell. Most VC players in small games bring the necro for just that. we just spend 15 points extra on him to get him IoN/raise dead AND vanhels! in a 1500 points game i can effectively cast vanhels dance 3 times per magic phase and perhaps more if one of my vamps rolled it 2! 

another thing, vampire combat prowess is greatly overexaggerated in my opinion. even a lone trooper can hit and wound a vampire easy enough. the thing is most people dont even try. i told my friend (who loses to me consistently) to TARGET MY VAMPIRES! people just dont... thats fine by me as ill keep raising up my units to original sizes and shuffing them down your throat.

Varghulfs are great, they really are. problem is they are US4 and in my opinion could use some more survivability. dont be scared of the varghulf. putting most big blocks of core units against him will ensure that you will beat him based solely on static combat res. 

always take some form of magic dmg. if a VC general brings wraiths, its a big problem. Or try to counter that wind of undeath. spirit hosts arent worth buying but they are definetly worth summoning with wind of undeath. last time i got it off pure for shits and giggles and the spirit host with one wound cleaned up the entire artillery line of my O&G opponent. 

btw listen to ROCDOCTA!. if your VC opponent is heavy on magic you can be reasonably sure most of his vampires have little to no armour. if this is the case and you get into CC with one. for the love of the gods DONT CHALLENGE! You should see the look of my opponents when i happily place my vampire in the back row and declare a "thx, it had no armour"  

another thing which is handy to know is that the divide and conquer technique really works well with a VC. if we dont clump units together close to our vamps they can A) not march B) will fall out of IoN range and thus cant get healed C) this way you can single out units containing vamps and hit them hard, the vamp will die or crumble use tarpit units to keep reinforcements away from you.

hope this helps on giving some insight on the mind of a VC player


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

That's fantastic Gharof, really useful stuff! +rep


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## Gharof von Carstein (May 19, 2008)

actually what might be usefull for this thread is a breakdown of how certain races can deal with VC. I havent played against everything yet so my knowledge here is lacking. what i will try to do is add some info on races im familiar with and how they can deal with the undead threat!

O&G

almost weekly i play against my best friend in the whole wide world who uses the orcses to try and beat my face. he however miserably fails every time due to some small mistakes in his handling of the undead.

what i have noticed is:

Be it black orcs, savage orcs, orc boys, goblins its all the same to me. I charge, beat its face with my ghouls (poison attacks ftw) and make them autobreak after which my pursuit whipes his army down to size. its sad but true. most of your core and special infantry units will not stand longer than a turn against a VC army. how do you counter this and pull off a win?

-Charge denial is big against vc! you need to at least be able to bring your front models to combat and actually let them hit. whatever core you use is fine but getting that charge is key! try to call a waaghh and maximise getting units in charge range. 
-Always bring some sort of fast cav! you need to throw these into the flanks the moment you get the charge. this way you deny ranks and maximise your potential to crumble down the VC threat. 
-if you have taken a strong special unit like black orcs with grimgor or some tooled up lord that will beat huge amounts of face (always try to have a ASF lord or hero) dont let him take on single core units of undead. we love it when you waste efforts trying to take down a single unit we can unload or PD on to grow back to size. what you should try (risky yet effective) is the buddy system. try to get that deathstar unit of yours into combat with 2 core units of undead (ussually they are clumped together tight enough to be able to do this) than charge fast cav or a second unit in there. this way your killy hero will take out all opposition on the front of one unit while the rest chips away at what can hit them. with no wounds for us and only rank bonusses (and maybe not even that) we get the dreaded double crumble when loosing combat. most people dont know that when several undead units are in a combat if they lose against the opposition both get the same amount of crumble. this is not divided among them. 
-chariots are ace. you play O&G so you know this. however dont charge them in solo. you need to help those chariots whipe the unit clean in a turn or 2. if you cant we will tarpit him for the rest of the game and make sure that by the end of the game a second unit has joined the fray to kill him off (its worth it as most chariots contain hero's and therefore are a shitload of VP points) 
-orcs and goblin magic is worth it. always take a shaman he might not always get a spell off but aim for the big dmg dealing spells, if even one of em gets irresistible force it can change a game around. and dont forget, a shaman in a chariot is almost as deadly as a normal hero in a chariot. 
-on magic items and standards; morks spirit totem is a must but you should know this already, along with staff of sneaky stealing (which we ussually counter with black periapt but still) nibla's itty ring is aces! and so are the stomping boots (dont know the full name) Killing blow on your hero is huge vs VC! especially on a hero with the akkrit axe! no matter how much punishment a vamp can take Killing blow still kills it outright and crumbling will ensue. 
-if your not sniping vampires with your warmachines than your wasting your points on them, simple as that. 
-you can easily spot a VC general from a mile (often times the most fancy looking vamp model) and i have just 1 suggestion for you, challenge with a goblin hero with the one hit wunda. bye bye now thx for playing!
-fanatics are fun, especially cuz we get to lure them out with zombies. all in all fanatics against VC are a big waste of points 9 out of 10 times. they bounce through our unit and deal like 4 wounds on average after which they ussually dont bother us for the rest of the game. 
-Giants are your tarpitting friends. most of our units need 6s to wound the fricking thing and his ability to auto win by 2 means guaranteed crumbling. a unit of my ghouls was tarpitted by a giant for the entire game and i was unable to kill him. giants are also aces vs our rare and special units. my black coach with several abilities was turned into kindling by one recently. when facing VC it pays to take a giant.

this is all i have for now, ill write up something for empire and OK players shortly. if you have additions to this as a O&G or VC player feel free to chime in. You think im wrong about something? post it and we can debate it. this is all from personal experience so im just writing as i think it is. your oppinions are of course welcomed.


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## Mute Orphan (Feb 3, 2009)

Hmm sad to hear about the folly of fanatics as I'm just starting an all night gobbos army (not a cheesy list but a fun and cheap (cost wise) one to get back into WFB. However I am willing to take certain goblin units and convert em a little such as a goblin pump wagon, wolf chariots, wolf riders, ect... and of course trolls! I'm really gonna go all out on night gobbo shamans and such, which units do you think available to gobbos would be some of my main strengths? I'm thinking lots of bolt throwers or a rock thrower and some heavy fire magic. Any tactics/suggestions against the counts without aid from the tuffa greenies?

oh god sorry for the major thread necromancy, I thought this was on the top of the threads next to the other versus threads...


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## Gharof von Carstein (May 19, 2008)

threads are there to be used. better than to start a new one right?

id suggest for a full goblin army:

-go magic, sneaky stealin, itty ring.
-think lots of spearchukkas and a doomdiver
-one hit wunda bearer on chariot or wolfrider.
-dont go overly nuts on the fanatics. they can do dmg but also to you.
-think numbers numbers numbers
-yes pumpwagons are great!
-no squighoppers arent (unless your a master at handeling them)
-wolfriders are a nuisance
-spiderriders more so
-nets nets and more nets!
-if your not taking any orcs (i suggest you do but eh what do i know) than at least take 1 or 2 orc shamans. you really want the higher LD and the spells of the big waaghh

hope that helps!


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

As Gharof says, these Versus... threads are here to be used so no apology needed. Gharof makes good suggestions, bear in mind your big problem Vs VC is their magic and fear. You need to make an effort to at least dent their magic, the staff of sneaky stealin' is a good start but you will need to really think about your magic defense.

Spear Chukkas are fantastic against any army but particularly for decimating your opponents Black Knights, etc. I would take as many as possible, I have 4 at 2k currently. A Rock Lobba is a good idea if you are good at using it, you can spend the whole game dropping rocks on the vampires heads from the other side of the table, only one needs to hit normally!  Likewise with a doom diver.

Fanatics are good but don't rely on them to win for you on their own, use them to deny important areas of the table to your opponent, they are not just for carnage. If you can prevent your opponents units charging for a turn or two as they try to avoid your fanatic, you have made good use of it.

Lastly you should consider frenzied and ItP units like savage orcs and squigs, you need to be able to use them properly, but having units that wont bugger off at the first hint of varghulf is all good! The only problem being they are the flaming expensive metal models  The giant is also worth considering if you can get on with the way it plays, the Ld10 stubborn with Terror is fantastic against fear causing armies, on top of which VC don't have any cannons...:wink:


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## Mute Orphan (Feb 3, 2009)

ah, thanks for the responses guys. I've been thinking along the lines of some trolls to try and neutralize some smaller fear causing units or to flank charge a unit being held down by a big block of gobbos. I'm definitely taking advantage of the 2 for 1 slot option offered up with spear chukkas and am anxious to check out the rules for the doomdriver (as of right now ive only got the battle for skull pass little book & models.) keeping that in mind what are the pros and cons of spider riders opposed to wolf riders? I've heard either their virtually the same or the wolves are better then spider riders. I do have both but I'd like to stick to one as spiders and wolves together looks a little weird 

so as far as taking out vampires ive got spear chukkas (lucky shot) doom divers, magic items, and some gobbo magic. Would it be more appropriate in this case to plan on a defensive front with the area denial of fanatics and the strong blocks of gobbos with a gobbo big boss in there with the one hit wunda and for the leadership bubble and some gobbo wizards zapping around other stuff with the artillery, probably stuff em in a cheap squad of archers?


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## Vorag of Strigos (Feb 25, 2009)

the problem with me and my fellow VC players are that many of us choose not to initially feild zombies within out army, allowing us to take a few better units, such as ghouls or skeletons, with the intent of raising vast units during battle, our greatest weakness is probably if someone realises that anything in the core section is next to useless in close combat if you can overcome your fear tests and such, if someone creates a unit of zombies, don't attack them, zombies are annoying, they don't run away, they don't stop fighting when random body parts fall off, and they are immune to psychology, they are mainly used to hold up other units and to act as cover for more expensive units, plus, they're cheap, also, , the bulk of military power comes from vampires and necromancers, both are easily capable of healing armies for a HUGE amount of wounds, especially with the summon undead horde spell, which potentially allows a ton of wounds to be restored and even re-raise units who had died, meaning it allows your varghulf or blood knights to be rebuilt, its incredibly annoying, and hard to dispel (unless you have a scroll) not only that, but Summon udead horde allows you to potentially raise a HUGE amount of zombies within a single round, which can be split into minimal unit requirements to annoy you even more, seriously, (for example, an extra 2 units of zombies will annoy anyone, as its more cover) but more than 2 units can easily be raised, probably more annoying is the Gaze of Nagash spell from the Lore of vampires, if equipped with it, a vampire can be as deadly as a Ogre Tyrants Bull charge with a longsword and Tenderiser

If you want to win against undead, fire a cannon at a necromancer or the vampires if possible, don't just engage a wight unit to get one less thing to kill, you opponent will raise them again if possible. KILL THE SPELLCASTER it'll help a LOT more


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