# Dark Eldar rejuvenation or rethinking?



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

So, the new and long awaited DE are coming and i'm getting curious. At first I took it easy and thought little of it, instead I enjoyed seeing my army getting a much needed facelift (seriously, I thought we would see Duke Nukem Forever before the new codex ), but as the anticipatition has grown increasingly stronger these last weeks I now want to know what you veterans think of the new codex. I have yet to take a look at it but the impression I have gotten is, in my opinion, a good one:

Namely that they are still Dark Eldar. They still require skill, carefull planning, rigid stubborn testing (maybe not so much as before) and total reliance on speed, patience and ruthlessness to secure victory. 

Aka, it's still DE just with more choices and more different efficient builds (rather than exclusively having Raider Rush being the only truly viable way to play).

So the question is; am I the only one who seem to have the impression that I will be playing them roughly as I did before?
It seems to me that little else has changed apart from a few upgrades won't be as necessary now as before, that certain units will be slightly more expensive (the bog standard raider squad for example) but will instead pack a meaner punch/have increased survivabillity (in PfP), but most things will likely perform similar to what the used to.

Let me hear what you think. Especially you who have had a chance to peek at the new codex.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

While there are more viable builds and a lot more options with the new codex, the way that it plays is still fairly similar to the old codex, which is a BIG plus for everyone that played Dark Eldar before the new codex.

The codex seems to be reasonably balanced at first glance.
It has the potential to be devastating, however it is also very fragile.
Just like the old codex, its not very forgiving to tactical errors.
Its not exactly an army that a new player can pick up and play.
However, in the hands of a good player, it can become a devastating force.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Some quick words from me:

Looking at it in depth, I believe that much of the same rules apply to picking an army.

Archons now hoave lots of toys to play with, seemingly a good thing. I was expecting practical upgrades, much like those availiable to the Autarch. But this is not the case. Archons have lots of 'fun' items. 
There are two competitive ways to build an Archon. 
1. Huskblade, Soul trap, Pistol (any, it doesn't matter) and shadowfield
2. Agoniser, Pistol (any) and shadowfield.
These are two simple builds that play up of the upper combat abilities.
Other items are just fun. Granted, Djinn blades are a good laugh and handy, but some items are just silly.
I would only ever take the Clone field if my Archon was going Carnifex/Wraithlord hunting.

Special characters are all interesting. Vect is our papa smurf. Drazhar out Phoenix lord...only needed when Spess mareeeen characters are running around.

Kabalite warriors are plain wonderful. I much prefer them over wyches.

Wyches aren't my style, and I really can't see a 'wych' army being competitive. A full wych squad with a leader and appropriate upgrades is a 'stalker' unit at best. Use them to pick on already hurt/damaged squads...never leave them to spear head a charge alone.

The two elite units (warriors and bloody marys) epitomize each squad type. Again, rules for wychs still apply. Don't think the bloodbrides will beat off a squad of orc boys.

Incubi are interesting. Not the toughest, but easily out do EVERY combat aspect that the eldar have. These guys are designed to kill space marines. Ideally terminators. Make a good unit for an archon to join, especially a husk lord.

Ravagers still do what they always did. Same price. Thank fuck. I was expecting a 30-40 point price hike. Only changes are upgrades, and Dizzys.
I still believe that Ravagers are best off WITHOUT upgrades. Perhaps the one that provides a 5+ inv, but thats not cheap.
Disintegrators (Dizzys) are now a super heavy bolter. A must against space marine armies. Travelling 12" and laying out 9 str5 ap2 shots isn't a laughing matter.

Talos and Grotesques do not interest me. They would be good fun against a Tyranid or ork army, but I doubt I'll even consider either option. Ever.

Heamonculi are our LOLWTF unit. Plenty of interesting toys. Whether making psykers heads go bang, or melting terminators, they are a fun option. Not very competitive option though.

Mandrakes and Scourges now are a little more powerful, and alot of fun. More streamlined at what they do. Bikes are now hideously strong, but in the coming months, I give this advice to all those who can take them: TAKE HEAVY BOLTERS!

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Basically, for me (and I believe also for Blue Liger) the most competitive way to fun DE is just like before.
Keep your characters cheap, keep your vehicles cheap and keep your scoring units in number.
3 Ravagers is a practical must. 2 default, 1 with Dizzys. Even if you field vect, only ever take one dizzy ravager. With the increase in price for lances on warriors, and the lost ability to take 2 lances per unit, ravagers are now the under-disputed anti-tank of our army.
I still firmly believe in the Incubi unit sledge hammer.

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Quick word on Webway portals. It is a good choice, but only for Grotesque and warp beast armies. Personally, it's still a no from me.


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## Firnan (Oct 15, 2009)

Hellions look to be a nice surprise deep strike unit. Not to mention the ability to remove a character from a unit. Granted said character will proably wipe the floor with hellions with but a sigh. But leaving a unit of grey knights or termies without further special character influence could help tilt the games in DE favor. Dark eldar in general, from what I could read from preview codex, could really take advantage of the deep strike rules. 

Curious to try a comparison mix of wyches versus harlequins, see which units strike best against marines assualt. Initial glance puts wyches in the lead but the shadowseer of the harlequins could give the unit the ability to dodge some tanks and get close to slaughter troops. Blood angels and Space wolves have been my bane. Hoping to try some new combo units like scourges or hellions to weaken them up and have wyches finish them off.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

if you wanna play the exact same way as before then no I suppose you don't have to change much at all, but since its a new codex surely half the fun is finding new ways to win right...*tries hard to keep a straight face at the thought of any 40k player using imagination to win*


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

The more cookie dough you swim in, the more chance of being in the circumferance of the cookie-cutter


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> if you wanna play the exact same way as before then no I suppose you don't have to change much at all, but since its a new codex surely half the fun is finding new ways to win right...*tries hard to keep a straight face at the thought of any 40k player using imagination to win*


This is true from what I glance. You can still do the Raider/Ravager Spam. However Web Bombs are a option with Warp Beast being pretty badass, Reavers can come thru them, and Talos being as nasty as before. 
Also the great Ravager may not be so great depemding on the play testing of Razor Wings and Bombers. Already they seem able to deal more damage and be more versatile. 
I think Haemonculas are a MUST now thanks to joining a squad and granting a free Pain Token. PfP cannot be ignored and is the best rule the DE have going. Raider Squads cant abuse this rule as much as Wyches, Incubi, Archons, and whatever else. Having a HQ slot of 3 Hamoncula spread out your force, say, 2 with Wyche Squads in Raiders and 1 with Archon and Incubi in another Raider, gives you the edge in CC that only the best CC units can overcome. 4+ FNP off the bat, yes please. I think this will be abused at future Tourneys. I cant remember right but Talos gives a unit within 12" a Pain Token as well? If so then 3 Talos in Web Ways to come out and decimate squads (Which 2-3 Talos will in one turn) can grant another free Pain Token too whoever need its. 

Much more nastier options thanks to Pleasure from Pain that I dont think the weaker Raider Squads can benefit from fully. Time will tell.


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## H0RRIDF0RM (Mar 6, 2008)

Haemonculi are the foundation for pain token manipulation and have a wide assortment of arcane wargear to inflict damage with.

Incubi are solid MEQ killers, but the Klaivex is kind of a point sink considering you could just field more Incubi.

Grotesques are quite formidable for destroying tanks and weapons teams. 

Wracks are solid objective holders and can deal some serious close combat punishment with multiple liquifiers and furious charge.

Mandrakes can be solid, but really need to start with a pain token to get the units full worth.

Kabalite Trueborn are really sick weapons teams.

Bloodbrides and Wyches have serious close combat potential, but run a huge risk of getting shot down and left for dead. Starting with a pain token makes them worth while.

Kabalite Warriors are awesome. Poison, good heavy weapon options, and a nice stat line.

Hellions are the alpha dog! Fast, torrent of fire, followed by tons of close combat attacks. Cheap upgrade options.

Scourges were a let down. For the love of god why couldn't they be 16 points and have access to more special weapons other then 2 per 5 Scourges. It's all because of Ghost armor. I mean who the fuck is relying on an armor save with the Dark Eldar?

By design Beast Masters are alot better. You can mix and match beasts/special weapon choice and send them after anything be it GEQ, MEQ, and even Vehicles. 

Reavers are hella good. Outstanding unit for destroying weapons teams, and then following up with some vehicle destruction.

The Venom is a nice option transport option for more elite units as opposed to always having to use a Raider.

Voidravens are primary AV and can follow up with Void Mines which are more then capable of smashing up any infantry in the game. While the Razorwing lets you drop all your bombs at once producing faster less effective results.

Talos and Ravagers are still in the same territory.

The Cronos is reasonable substitute for a Haemonculi for those times when you don't want to waste an HQ slot. I can see some nice infantry lists coming out of its pain token distribution.

All in all I liked everything except the frikin Scourges!


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Firnan said:


> Granted said character will proably wipe the floor with hellions with but a sigh.


I'm not sure about that. If the Hellion squad is still near its starting strength then sheer number of attacks will probably fell most characters (apart from maybe Mephiston).



Firnan said:


> Curious to try a comparison mix of wyches versus harlequins, see which units strike best against marines assualt. Initial glance puts wyches in the lead but the shadowseer of the harlequins could give the unit the ability to dodge some tanks and get close to slaughter troops.


Harlequins win hands down in terms of damage dealing, with 4 S4 Furious Charge and Rending attacks each.

As soon as Wyches get a Pain Token though, they pull massively ahead in terms of survivability, with a 4++ and Feel no Pain. They're also a bit cheaper, and can have a dedicated transport, unlike the Harlies.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Firnan said:


> Curious to try a comparison mix of wyches versus harlequins, see which units strike best against marines assualt. Initial glance puts wyches in the lead but the shadowseer of the harlequins could give the unit the ability to dodge some tanks and get close to slaughter troops. Blood angels and Space wolves have been my bane. Hoping to try some new combo units like scourges or hellions to weaken them up and have wyches finish them off.


Harlequins may be replacing a wych squad of mine, currently my Elites will be Bloodbrides in smaller games along side the archon as they can give him offensive and defensive grenades for 15pts less and then in bigger games I'll take him with Incubi.

Though I will be in 2000pts trying to fit Bloodbrides, Harlequins and Incubi in one army if not one of those may be replaced with a 5 man sniper team or tank buster team deeptriking in a venom with 4 blasters.

But as Orochi said my playstyle will be pretty much the same as before but some jetbikes will be replaced with Scourge for DS anti tank if a ravager dies and now my incubi have moved to elites instead of HQ (I actually preferred them to take a part of the HQ slot as it provided the lord a better retinue protection that then new ones) though now I can have upto 30 in one army instead of 18-20.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Orochi, I see your points, but disagree with some. First, the "lost" 2 lance squad isn't lost. It just needs to be 20 Warriors Strong. The superWarriors are something I'm thinking about, with 4 special weapon choices, they're looking pretty good. I did some test armies, and yes, they are about what I used to field, other than FootVect (4+ to sieze, too tasty to ignore) and actually USING my old Scourge figures for onct. 

However, I'm going with Wrack troops. We'll see how that goes, but I do have my old grotesques and I want to field them a bit. 

So, to the point of the question: Tactics? About the same. Troop comp? About the same. For now. I'm really intrigued by the Archon's Court and the Beastmasters....for future.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Orochi said:


> The more cookie dough you swim in, the more chance of being in the circumferance of the cookie-cutter


the majority of people must eat shit and breath cookie dough then


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Yeh the majority do. 

As for Trueborns, I can see them being the DE version of Fire dragons (assuming blasters). As for prices in the way of points, I'm not sure how it'll work out.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

That's my thought, but more the DE version of Chosen. at 1.5 times base warrior cost for modest upgrades, not sure about Trueborns, myself. Though it does allow me to pool all those special weapons troops my warriors no longer use. My Prototype list has them in a Venom for zoom in and melt, then die action. Very similar to Fire dragons


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

I like what I'm hearing as it was mostly what I hoped and had come to expect. 
So in all the integrity of the armys playstyles has been kept intact while simultaniously it's flexibility and variability has gone through the roof.

I'm vey thrilled to hear that the earlier underused aspects of the army have been given a nice boost. I'm particularly pleased to hear the good reception wracks, and to a certain extent grotesques too, have had. Especially as always loved the idea of the grotesques and having alternatives to your troop choices is always a bonus.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

I've gotta say, I still don't really see the DE as being much more than the first-strike army they are today. Most of my games are over within 20 minutes of finishing deployment. Either I go first & cripple my opponent before they have a chance to react; they go first & I deploy as cautiously as I can (usually in reserve / hidden in the backfield); or they seize the initiative & I'm crippled before I have a chance to react. Since my 2nd game I haven't had to grind for 5th turn. The game is 99.9% over by turn 2.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

99.9%? 
Find some better opponents or stop using rigged dice...


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Statisticaly improbable as that percent is I agree you find better opponents. Unless you sacrifice pretty virgins to the Dice Gods, then its realistic.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

I'm not saying I'm *winning *99.9% of the time. Just that the game is decided as either a solid win or solid loss for DE by the end of turn 2. Usually based on my (the DE) deployment and that damned roll for initiative...

swear to god - in 2 years of playing at least a game a week with my Chaos marines the initiative was stollen maybe a 1/2-dozen times. With my DE it's pretty much a one in three shot that the I'll lose turn one


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## H0RRIDF0RM (Mar 6, 2008)

clever handle said:


> I'm not saying I'm *winning *99.9% of the time. Just that the game is decided as either a solid win or solid loss for DE by the end of turn 2. Usually based on my (the DE) deployment and that damned roll for initiative...
> 
> swear to god - in 2 years of playing at least a game a week with my Chaos marines the initiative was stollen maybe a 1/2-dozen times. With my DE it's pretty much a one in three shot that the I'll lose turn one


If you build a pure mechanized Dark Eldar force then you're asking for trouble. Something as simple as Kabalite Warriors or Trueborns on foot with Dark Lances can go along way.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Well, with Vect's 4+ Seize things are going better now. But, i've had good games where I didn't get initiative. but I run a WWP army now, so it's a bit different. It mostly needs good reserve rolls at that point.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

if I expect to go second it isn't as bad. It is just when the opponent seizes.

Warriors on foot are good for (2) things. going to ground and then running away.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Honestly, the recast fixed some of that. First, the ill-received Venom. My GOSH! It's SMALL enough to HIDE during deployment. Hmmm, survivability!

Second, Power Through Pain. Pop a Haemonculi with your 20 man warrior unit for turn 1. FNP. Good plan!

Third: Choose to go 2nd. Then Sieze.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

Creon said:


> First, the ill-received Venom. My GOSH! It's SMALL enough to HIDE during deployment.


Is it? there isn't a model that I've seen...


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Old Eldar Harlequin Vemom. The old Vyper with Fighting Platform, and DE bladey things.


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## IntereoVivo (Jul 14, 2009)

Creon said:


> Old Eldar Harlequin Vemom. The old Vyper with Fighting Platform, and DE bladey things.


Can you post a link?


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

http://stevencnelson.com/2.html

http://images.dakkadakka.com/galler...ar, Harlequins, Vehicle, Warhammer 40,000.jpg


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## IntereoVivo (Jul 14, 2009)

Hmmm, those are quite small. Anyone who has a codex, can you give us an idea of what it looks like?


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