# Spoiler!!--- Mechanicum book ,very interesting questions



## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

I read the Mechanicum book and i liked it till i reached the end. I didnt really like the end and i thought it was quite impossible.
I need your opinions on somethings and your thoughts on some other.

1: Do you think the Emperor could have taken down the strongest C'tan (Void Dragon) and imprison it?
As far as i know the Void Dragon went to mars after the big civil C'tan battle because it was a bit hurt and there it slept and made the necron like Mechanicum, i dont think the Emperor would have had a chance of defeating a god that is one of the most strongest beings in the galaxy and created the necrons.

2: When Horus's advisor came to mars he talked about some chip or information that was stolen from a planet that was inhabited by a human like race closely related in biological and technological wise to marines. Do you think this planet might have been inhabited by one of the missing primarchs and his marines? 
We all know that all the primarchs and legions fought in the crusade and we know that something happend to the two missing primarchs between the crusade and the Battle on Terra so its a perfect match!!k:

thanks for listening, look forward to your ideas, if i did spoil the ending im sorry but i did but SPOILER!! in the title.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

rep for what?

Also the part with the similar human technology is actually from one of the previous Heresy books... I think Galaxy in flames? I know it was one of the first three where that happened. 

EDIT: also the part with the missing primarch theory doesnt work the power armoured men were not astartes but normal men in smaller suites of astartes power armour with the same weapons, everything was just smaller scale.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

well if they had same armour and weapons then that kinda supports my theory.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Not really as Power Armour is based on an STC design, which would have been prevalent on the majority of Human Worlds.

The Void Dragon wasn't the most powerful C'tan- the Nightbringer is, and the Emperor actually states in Mechanicum that even he couldn't kill the C'tan, only imprison it.

If you know anything regarding the C'tan you'd know that psykers and the warp are anathema to them, and woah! the Emperor is the most powerful psyker in the Galaxy. So yeah I think he had a better than average chance against the Void Dragon.


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Ferrus Manus said:


> well if they had same armour and weapons then that kinda supports my theory.


 no it doesnt... as Spikey just said it is based on an STC design, it even states that the men were no match for astartes just becuz they had the same armour. It's a pre crusade design after the first human expansions.

Also did you see a primarch during that fight? No didnt think so...


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

Well basically you need to read the book again, it is way too complicated too make your mind up at once, nowhere in the book does it specifically state that the Emperor defeated the Void Dragon just a passing reference to old tales on terra, i.e knight in shining armour comes and kills a dragon and its mirror representation on mars. The power armour and the wafers of STC tech in the book comes from a planet called Aurelias,their Technocracy had an army which adhered to the STC in armaments and armour due to functioning STC factories they had. Read more about it in the latter part of The False Gods novel by Macneill I think.

Plus heres a hint read the short text entitled The Kaban Project in the Collected Visions book, from pages 200-208? I think and read the Mechanicum again...a lot of things will suddenly appear which was blank before...trust me.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

k thanks for explaining, ill read the book again....


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Ferrus Manus said:


> 1: Do you think the Emperor could have taken down the strongest C'tan (Void Dragon) and imprison it?
> As far as i know the Void Dragon went to mars after the big civil C'tan battle because it was a bit hurt and there it slept and made the necron like Mechanicum, i dont think the Emperor would have had a chance of defeating a god that is one of the most strongest beings in the galaxy and created the necrons.


The Void Dragon did not go to mars. He did not go to sleep. He went to Earth, imposing himself as a great wyrm who lorded over the primitive human cultures (possibly becoming the origin of dragon mythology) and demanded daily sacrifices. The Emperor, a knight or something at the time, defeated the Dragon, pacifying but not killing it, as that was beyond even him to achieve. Later he imprisoned it on mars. As evident in _Nightbringer, even sleeping c`tan influence the minds of those around them. Being the most scientifically fluent of the star gods, (It was the Void Dragonn who gave the necrons FTL tech and such) his dreams affected the humans who lived on mars, giving rise to the mechanicum and allowing the imperium to come about. The Emperor set himself up to be viewed as the Machine God, but the Dragon is the real deal.
Also of note is the tome that the old guide presents to Dhalia, a sort of instruction manual to what she must do. When she returns to the cavern later on, it has been stolen. 10k years have passed, and the time now approaches for a new guardian to take her place, but without that book is this even possible? I do not believe so. The year 300 in M42 will be a dark time indeed for the imperium...:cray:_


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## CaptainLoken (May 13, 2009)

> well if they had same armour and weapons then that kinda supports my theory.


Also remember on the Dark Angels home world they had a smaller version of power armour that normal humans could wear.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Ferrus Manus said:


> 1: Do you think the Emperor could have taken down the strongest C'tan (Void Dragon) and imprison it?
> As far as i know the Void Dragon went to mars after the big civil C'tan battle because it was a bit hurt and there it slept and made the necron like Mechanicum, i dont think the Emperor would have had a chance of defeating a god that is one of the most strongest beings in the galaxy and created the necrons.


Its widely presumed that the Void Dragon fled to Terra and lorded over its barbarian inhabitants following his encounter with the Talismans of Vaul, as seen in the Eldar myth in the Necrons Codex.

If the Void Dragon was weakened from this encounter and went to Terra to recuperate or maybe even to hibernate then he faced the Emperor in a weakened form. Aside from that as the Baron said, C'tan are anathema to Warp Energy, and the Emperor is widely regarded as the most powerful Psyker in the Galaxy. I think the Void Dragon chose the wrong planet!


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Sorry for a late addition, but I only just found this thread from a cross-linked thread.

The Nightbringer was on Earth at some point as well. As it is unlikely that several C'tan would hang out together after the commencement of the civil war, I think it unlikely that the VD would have gone there. 
C'tan were all in hibernation for 60,000,000 years, and the Deceiver was the first to awaken, about 1,000 years before the current date. That makes it impossible for any of the C'tan to have visited primitive human cultures, as the earliest would not have awoken until 9,000 years AFTER the Emperor was already entombed in the Golden Throne.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I think some may be employing the word "anethema" in the wrong context.

Yes the warp was "anethema" to the ctan, does this mean they were weak to it? Does it mean warp energy harmed them more so then a bolter riffle or grenade? No.

Anethema = hated by, despised (depends on context you use it in)

It can also be used in tense to mean "not grasped by", the warp was anethema to the ctan not because they were weak to it, this is apparent by the fact that the void dragon fought all the vaul stone fortresses simultaneously, and still anihilated the majority of them along with the eldar armies in that battle.

Why did he go to earth, if that was even the void dragon, was likely to repair, not due to being weak to warp energy but because twelved being shot at by giant guns of mass energy would hurt anyone.

Warp energy is the one thing the ctan do not have complete masteryover, unlike everything else they do. In the nex codex in states along the lines "the ctan held complete mastery over reaity, physics and the laws of reality held no sway over them" basically they write the laws of reality as they see fit. They just didn't have this power over the warp as much as they did real space.

EDIT: the night bringer is not stated as the most powerful ctan.

For raw power It is more along the lines of
The outside->the void dragon->night bringer->the deceiver.

For intelligence and cunning, likely more so of
The deceiver->the void dragon->the night bringer->the outsider


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Lux has a point on this. 

The c`tan are said often to be vulnerable to warp energy. This does not make them "weak" against it, just means that they can take harm from it.

Name me TWO other things that are known to be able to kill a c`tan. +rep if you pull this off.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Lux said:


> EDIT: the night bringer is not stated as the most powerful ctan.


The Nightbringer is the most ancient and inflicted the greatest suffering on the galaxy. What references do you have to state that the other Star Vampires are stronger, and yet less dangerous or destructive?


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

It means the nightbringer is the most destructive and prone to acts of violence. Does it mean it possesses the mosst power? No.

It is stated the outsider consumed the most ctan, so much to the fact that the many fragments of personalities drove it insane. It is also known that more ctan consumed = more power. Thus knowing that the outside consumed the most ctan is a good indicator it also possesses in liklihood the most raw power.

Now the nightbringer may possesses less raw power, but does that mean its personality is less destructive? No. The NB is just prone to using what power it has to kill and maim more so then the others.

And yes to further clarify that the ctan are not weak to warp energy is like saying "a human is inherently weak to rocks" just because a rock can cause them harm.

Its like saying greater daemons are weak to "any ammount of fire power that can banish them".

Its like saying the chaos gods are inherently weak to "emperor's of man kind"just because he can harm them or they fear him.

The ctan aren't weak to warp energy, just in enough mass quantity it can inflict danage to their metal shells, just like a grenade could in that one book, or more accurately a pile of rocks would be too much for a ctan to blow up, guess ctan are weak to piles of rocks when wounded too?

Fluff wise its stated "the warp is anathema to the ctan" this means the warp is hated by the ctan, due to them being unable to manipulate its anatomical structure to the level of effeciency they can do to all other facets of reality, such as physics and reality ofrealspace itself.


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## Squeeking up on people (Jul 24, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Lux has a point on this.
> 
> The c`tan are said often to be vulnerable to warp energy. This does not make them "weak" against it, just means that they can take harm from it.
> 
> Name me TWO other things that are known to be able to kill a c`tan. +rep if you pull this off.


Sniper rifles and poisoned weaponry :laugh:

Sorry I forgot this was the fluff section :wink:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lux said:


> I think some may be employing the word "anethema" in the wrong context.
> 
> Yes the warp was "anethema" to the ctan, does this mean they were weak to it? Does it mean warp energy harmed them more so then a bolter riffle or grenade? No.
> 
> ...


You are right, the term 'anathema' doesn't automatically mean weakness or vulnerability. But taken in context, the C'tan have almost a complete mastery over the material universe. The one thing they cannot influence, dominate or master is the Warp, and this is a massive weakness in and of itself. 

The Warp is the only thing preventing the C'tan from permanently dominating the galaxy and enacting the Red Harvests. It empowers the 'lesser races' (Eldar, Humans, Orks etc) and enables them to remain as powerful as they are - granted this doesn't automatically mean that the C'tan are directly vulnerable to Warp energy, but while the Warp is still around the C'tan are vulnerable, whether it is directly or indirectly. But in my mind this automatically means that the C'tan are _directly_ vulnerable to Warp Energy, they cannot control it, they cannot influence it (like they can pretty much everything else) and therefore they it is automatically a weakness, thats how I see it anyway. 

Also, the fact that the Talismans of Vaul utilises Warp Energy and are described as the only weapons capable of harming a C'tan (hence why the deceiver went to such lengths to move the Talismans out of the reach of the Craftworld Eldar and Imperium). Also the sketchy account of the implied duel between the Void Dragon and the Emperor furthers the implication that the C'tan are directly vulnerable to Warp Energy (which the Emperor would have obviously utilised in such a duel) as well as being indirectly vulnerable to it.

And on the subject of the implied duel between the Emperor and Void Dragon. The account we get in _Mechanicum_ isn't the full account by a long shot, it has been distorted by the Dragon's anger and rage and is also all that the Dragon of Mars remembers of the duel, we are obviously therefore not hearing the full story.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

To use it in the context you are employing is to fundamentally use the inappropriate word for the wrong context. 

It is akin to me saying, the Chaos gods are anethema to the Emperor, since he is fundamentally the only force in known existence that is able to directly harm them. Does this mean in anyway that the chaos gods have an inherent weakness, vulnerability to the Emperor of Mankind? No it does not, it merely means that the Emperor of Mandkind with his monumental amount of power is able to harm them.

It is the same as saying Space marines are anethema to heavy bolter rounds, as they are able to harm them. Are space marines inherently weak to heavy bolter rounds? No, it just enough firepower is able to harm and inflict damage on any entity.

The Ctan have complete mastery over real space, does this mean they are not able to block, deflect, withstand psychic, warp energy assaults? No, they are able to withstand massive amounts of warp energy that would annihilate most any entity in the warhammer 40k mythos. Such as the void dragon taking and sustaining fire from all twelve vaul stone fortresses, and the accompanying eldar armies, and still manage to destroy the majority of them in that battle as well as massacre the eldar armies.

Does this mean that any entity that is harmed by a vaul stone fortress is inherently weak to the warp? No. The warp is a weapon, and in mass quantity it is able to damage any entity, including the emperor, including the ctan, does it mean they are weak to it? No not at all.

The Warp is the one thing, the one essence, that the Ctan do not have complete absolute mastery over, it is some thing they are able to fathom and manipulate, but no where near to the level they are able to manipulate real space.

Real space is a boon to them, the warp is neutral to them, and that angers the ctan in that everything else is a plus to them except the warp which is neutral to them, not a gain nor a loss.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

From what I have heard they have no connection to the warp so no.... they wouldn’t be able to manipulate. In fact, it is said that their major weakness is their inability to comprehend the warp.


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## BrainFreeze (Oct 9, 2008)

I have this severe allergic reaction to nukes, everytime they go off around me I have this tendancy to turn into ash. I've been told there is a treatment plan to fix this but it's expensive and I cant afford it at this time.

Warp energy would be a weakness for the C'Tan seeing as it looks like only other C'Tan and warp beings/energy can harm them. Though the story of the Void Dragon and the Emperor is kinda faulty given the timing. The C'Tan were sleeping long before the humans were even thought of.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Squeeking up on people said:


> Sniper rifles and poisoned weaponry :laugh:
> 
> Sorry I forgot this was the fluff section :wink:


No rep for you. 



BrainFreeze said:


> Warp energy would be a weakness for the C'Tan seeing as it looks like only other C'Tan and warp beings/energy can harm them. Though the story of the Void Dragon and the Emperor is kinda faulty given the timing. The C'Tan were sleeping long before the humans were even thought of.


We assume that the Dragon did not go to sleep. He hid out on Earth feeding off human sacrifices until the Emperor laid him low.


And to add to Lux`s argument, if twelve Blackstone fortresses could not kill a c`tan, and there are now only two left, what chance is there? 

Who else can bring that kind of warp based firepower to bear against them?

If a c`tan was directly and physically weak against the warp, I imagine the attack would have succeeded. The fact of his survival seems to suggest that the eldar simply had no viable alternative but to use Warp based weaponry against him, because any weapons based on physical power (kinesis, light, fusion etc) simply have no effect on the c`tan in his true form.

So, even their one weakness is not a real weakness at all.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Who else can bring that kind of warp based firepower to bear against them?


The Chaos Gods in some capacity probably.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Who else can bring that kind of warp based firepower to bear against them?


I was also thinking the chaos gods. I wonder, what do you guys think would happen if you got a thousand Lords of Change and got them all to attack one of the C'Tan together?


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Probably not very much. 1,000 is still not a lot if you think about the scale of the C'tan. In their natural state, C'tan are the size of stars. The Sun of our solar system is quite a small star, there are stars hundreds of times bigger, and several million times brighter. Lords of Change are nothing compared to that, you would need several million to even make the C'tan notice. The minor embodiments of the C'tan might be a match for 1,000 Lord of Change.


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## Khargoth (Aug 5, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Name me TWO other things that are known to be able to kill a c`tan. +rep if you pull this off.


Other C'tan, and starvation due to the death of every living thing in the universe. Alternatively you could banish it into the Warp. The whole anathema discussion we're having now says that the Warp itself may not kill it, but it would have no control over it whatsoever, meaning it can't escape and it'd eventually starve to death.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Your going to banish a ctan from the material realm? Of which it has absolute mastery and power over? Good luck.

That's like saying "you can banish the chaos gods to the material realm, of which they have no control over"


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

hey Gen, no one can comprehend the warp. lol, its incomprehensible. its there and not there. its insanity and sanity. theres reason and no reason. thats warp.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Khargoth said:


> Other C'tan, and starvation due to the death of every living thing in the universe.


C'tan feed on stars. Living things taste nicer, but they are not a requirement for C'tan survival. All 'life' and every star and every piece of energy in the universe would need to be destroyed to starve a C'tan to death. I think that would technically still count as a win for the C'tan...


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## Khargoth (Aug 5, 2010)

Lux said:


> Your going to banish a ctan from the material realm? Of which it has absolute mastery and power over? Good luck.
> 
> That's like saying "you can banish the chaos gods to the material realm, of which they have no control over"


Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. If a C'tan is caught in a warp rift it cannot do anything to stop itself from being banished. No easy feat since it can easily kill you while you're _trying_ to open said rift.

And you can sort-of banish the chaos gods to the material realm. Perform such a massive ritual that the Chaos Gods themselves are summoned, and then complete the C'tan great work, cutting them off from returning to the warp.



darklove said:


> C'tan feed on stars. Living things taste nicer, but they are not a requirement for C'tan survival. All 'life' and every star and every piece of energy in the universe would need to be destroyed to starve a C'tan to death. I think that would technically still count as a win for the C'tan...


Fair enough, that kind of hilights a plot hole. If the C'tan can live off the energies of stars, as they had before, why did they bother going into stasis when everything else was going extinct?

I still submit the 'starvation in the Warp' idea, plus there's a few other ways (maybe). Destroying a C'tan's necrodermis, and somehow throwing it's essence beyond the event horizon of a black hole before it can aquire a new body. The C'tan have been described as mostly powerless when they aren't concentrated into a physical body. In a physical body a black hole is a laughable matter for them, and they were probably used as weapons a few times.


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

Chompy Bits said:


> I was also thinking the chaos gods. I wonder, what do you guys think would happen if you got a thousand Lords of Change and got them all to attack one of the C'Tan together?


If you had _n_ Lords of Change in a room, you'd have _n_ squared secret plots.

Co-operation being so ordered and anti-chaotic and all.
Not saying that some wouldn't co-operate just to be contrary, but I doubt it would happen.

Ref: Herding Cats http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herding_cats


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

@ Khargoth: You're not grasping the whole C'tan thing, so nvm.


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## Khargoth (Aug 5, 2010)

darklove said:


> @ Khargoth: You're not grasping the whole C'tan thing, so nvm.


If you're talking about the whole 'plot hole' thing, I'm just thinking aloud.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

@CotE: The chaos gods? possibly. The answer I was actually looking for was the tyranids. Who has better psykers in more numbers than them? Not saying that`s definitely possible either, but it`s an idea. (plus they`re my army so I like to include them in my theories if possible :grin: )

@DarkLove: There a lot who don`t seem to grasp it. :headbutt:


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