# What if the Imperium Secundus had become a reality?



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Sang doesn't survive the Heresy to become the next Emperor but Guilliman becomes the Regent and rules it in the name of the Emperor for 10,000 years. All other loyalist primarchs are out of the picture. The entire Imperium is run by Guilliman _a la_ the Realm of Ultramar 

I honestly think the Imperium would be far more effective at dealing with its enemies in this scenario. It might even develop new technology and ideas.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

I think the Imperium Secundus did become a reality, what with the massive reforms Guilliman implemented after the Heresy. A major factor in his reforms was breaking the Legions down into mere Chapters (which are restricted to his Codex Astartes) to vastly reduce the danger when a force of them goes rogue, as well as splitting the Imperial Army into the Imperial Navy and the Imperial Guard--two interdependent forces who can't conquer and hold systems without each other so if elements of just one betray the Imperium, they're much less potent. These, plus various bureaucratic reforms, were what Guilliman planned.

I imagine that the upwelling of faith threw a spanner in the works of his plans, as well as the ossification of the Mechanicus into a totally unimaginative body, as well as the social inertia that led to the Imperium in its current stagnant, decrepit state--but by and large, Guilliman had free reign over the Imperium after the Heresy, with the largest remaining Legion force, and he tellingly chose to break up his force, reduce the 500 Worlds of Ultramar to a mere 8 worlds, and leaned on his fellow Primarchs to break up their forces as well (Dorn being the most resistant to the idea, and it nearly came to shots being fired before he broke the 3000 remaining Imperial Fists into the Imperial Fists, the Crimson Fists, and the Black Templars Chapters).


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

I doubt too that Guilliman would have remained Lord Regent for long. Isn't he the one quoted as saying a Space Marine's/Primarch's arena is the field of battle, not the desk of a politician? I may be mistaken but I thought all the Primarchs fought alongside their men.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Archon Dan said:


> I doubt too that Guilliman would have remained Lord Regent for long. Isn't he the one quoted as saying a Space Marine's/Primarch's arena is the field of battle, not the desk of a politician? I may be mistaken but I thought all the Primarchs fought alongside their men.


He very much believed the opposite. In his view (as shown in Know No Fear) the Astartes would go on to act as governors and administrators after the Great Crusade. To do otherwise would be a waste of their mental talents and to suggest the Emperor had planned on making them redundant. 

You can see some of this ethos in current 40k in the governing of Ultramar and the way Chapter masters rule not only their chapter but the world/system their chapter is based on.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

I knew of the current structures in 40K, with Dante as Lord of Baal and the like. I didn't know the concept went so far back. But now that time has passed, I realise that I attributed a Space Wolf philosophy to Guilliman. It is the Space Wolves who have trouble with politics. But I think many common humans, especially the elite Terrans might resent being ruled by the Emperor's science projects. There are plenty who resented him ruling.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Just because Guilliman became Lord Commander of the Imperium doesn't mean he succeeded in bringing about Imperium Secundus.

Looking at the current state of Ultramar, as well as what it was like when it had all Five Hundred Worlds, it's obvious that Guilliman aimed for a state that was ostensibly fair to its subjects but obviously militaristic. The "classic" world of Ultramar seems to strive toward something like 6th-5th century Sparta. That is, Guilliman wants that level of idealism and loyalty from his subjects, and he certainly desires an even greater degree of militarism.

By contrast, the Imperium as we know it is anything but that. Guilliman succeeded in introducing military reforms meant to prevent another large-scale civil war, but he _did not_ succeed in instilling the social and cultural "virtues" of Ultramar. A majority of Imperial citizens live in squalor, ignorance, and poverty. They adore and worship an unseen Emperor, but live in fear of the state that represents him.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

The thought just crossed my mind...let's say the scenario remains unchanged except Sanguinius survives the Heresy. Sanguinius rules as Emperor, Guilliman serves as Regent (I think this was the original plan judging by the cover of Unremembered Empire). Do you think they would've gotten along...or would civil war be on the horizon?


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> The thought just crossed my mind...let's say the scenario remains unchanged except Sanguinius survives the Heresy. Sanguinius rules as Emperor, Guilliman serves as Regent (I think this was the original plan judging by the cover of Unremembered Empire). Do you think they would've gotten along...or would civil war be on the horizon?


Frankly... either or. The problem is that we're dealing with a 'what if' situation here. One person could argue that it would lead to an Imperium that was as good, if not better than the current one we have while another could claim that the egos of the Primarchs and other leaders of that Imperium could lead it down the opposite direction and neither would be wrong.

Maybe when Unremembered Empire comes out we'll have a better idea as to how such a situation _could _play out.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

On a purely technological level, whoever has an Astronomican would naturally have tremendous political gravity in any Imperium Secundus. It appears that the Empire of Ultramar had the ability to maintain at least a baby Astronomican, therefore giving it automatic pull in the empire.

Any discussion of Terra in an Imperium Secundus relies on The Emperor no longer being around... with Sang's survival or not. If the Big E isn't around, then Terra becomes a Chaos planet, not leaving a lot of other choices in where the Imperium will be based. Hell, no one would even be able to make the claim that they represent the birth-world of humanity, so how could it be "The Imperium"? Interestingly, this being the case, you wouldn't have the Ecclisiarchy either, with a fallow Emperor no longer giving them juice when they prey or trust in the Emperor protecting.

With Terra down, it's questionable if Mars would survive in such close proximity, further straining any hope for the two states (Imperium and Mechanicum) to successfully cohabitate under the same banner. Regardless, the sea-change in how the Mechanicum chose to evolve seems to have been driven by the change in leadership following the Heresy and the loss of the truly innovative Adepts during the Heresy. Even if the Mechanicum hangs with an Imperium Secundus, you're still in for a long eternity of worshiping the Omnissiah. :shok:


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Any idea as to when Unremembered Empire's release date...really can't wait for this book


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## The Rusted Scythes (Feb 2, 2013)

The Imperium is corrupt because it was never fully finished.


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