# "H.H. - Child of the Night" E-short by J. French.



## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

John French has a new short released today. I think it looks interesting, especially with this character that just appeared in a small "cameo" in ATS. Also that he sounds like a loyalist is exciting. I'll hold off with buying until for now, as I bet it will be released in a anthology later on. But French has some good writing in the past and I love the NL.









http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/child-of-night-ebook.html



> The story:
> _In the dark hive sumps beneath Terra, Chief Librarian Fel Zharost of the Night Lords Legion is being hunted. Having abandoned his insane primarch and brothers many years ago, he doesn’t know what he’s done wrong, but he’s sure he doesn’t want to be captured. What will happen when he discovers that his Legion has fallen into heresy? And where will his loyalties lie?_


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## Kalamoj (Nov 8, 2013)

I hope it's long enough to flesh out a good story, the plot souds interesting. I smell Garro...
It's a shame but I can't remember the ATS cameo that you mentioned OP.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Kalamoj said:


> It's a shame but I can't remember the ATS cameo that you mentioned OP.


He was mentioned as one of the 12 Librarians who spoke out in favour of Magnus's position at the Council of Nikaea.



Kalamoj said:


> I hope it's long enough to flesh out a good story, the plot souds interesting. I smell Garro...


Given the price (£1.99) it will be very short, unfortunately. I'm going to get a copy and read it later and report back.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Please not a loyalist Night Lord. Sounds ridiculous.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Please not a loyalist Night Lord. Sounds ridiculous.


Why? In a Legion with anywhere from 80,000-100,000 members, it's conceivable that not every single one of them is a raging psychopath.


LotN


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Plus the Night Lord in question is named as the Chief Librarian of the Night Lords legion. Definitely not a nobody.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Just finished it. For a very short story, it was quite good.

If anyone wishes to know the plot:


Fel Zharost has, for several years, been an exile in the darkness beneath Terra - where he was born, and where the VIII Legion found him. For the last few days he has been hunted, and now he's finally been caught. Just before his hunter pulls the trigger and executes him, Zharost insists that he shares his story with his hunter (psychically, of course). We see flashbacks of him as a youth and of his exploits, but most importantly we see a conversation between him and Sevatar after the Council of Nikaea. Zharost sought out Sevatar as the most senior commander of the Legion in their Primarch's absence (presumably when Curze was arrested by Dorn - see _The Dark King_) to make a judgement on the Nikaean Edict - should they obey it and disband the Librarius or ignore it? After a bit of a scrap, Sevatar tells Zharost that he simply doesn't care and instead exiles Zharost from the Legion. Thus the Librarian returns to Terra, in exile. 

Right at the end, Horus's betrayal is revealed to Zharost and he understands why the hunter has come for him. Just before the hunter pulls the trigger, it is revealed that he is a Space Marine in grey armour and he bids Zharost to rise... 

Overall, not bad. But do we have to keep getting fed Garro recruitment stories?!?! Especially considering the climax of the recruitment drive has been the ridiculous suicide mission in _Vengeful Spirit_.




Vaz said:


> Please not a loyalist Night Lord. Sounds ridiculous.




He's a Terran and hates Sevatar and the Nostraman Night Lords for poisoning the Legion. Not a loyalist in the purest sense, but an exile who simply returned to the darkness - to then be contacted by one of the Knights Errant.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Just finished it. For a very short story, it was quite good.
> 
> If anyone wishes to know the plot:
> 
> ...




So excluding those featured in _Vengeful Spirit_, that means we also have Zharost, and a as of yet unamed Thousand Son member of the Knights Errant. Wonder how long they will last before these apparently very valuable and unique individuals are sent on another suicide mission.


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## Scrad (Apr 4, 2014)

Night Lord Librarian? Commander-Keen.

I hope this short tidbit can lead to something bigger in the HH (that isn't solely Garro related, even if that makes the most sense).


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Please not a loyalist Night Lord. Sounds ridiculous.


Not really. Not any more absurd than loyalist World Eater


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

There's already at least one Night Lord loyalist fighting for the Raven Guard in one of the books.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Lord of the Night said:


> Why? In a Legion with anywhere from 80,000-100,000 members, it's conceivable that not every single one of them is a raging psychopath.
> 
> 
> LotN


What about the Word Bearers?

Anyway, you needn't be a raging psychopath, nor a follower of the Imperials. It's very... contrived, is all I can think of to really describe it, and just feels like there's a case for "ooh we must have a "loyalist" traitor. But we've already done that. We've already had the whole loyalist traitor, as that was what set up the scene initially as a result of Garro and the Eisenstein, plus a side show by Tarvitz and Loken.

But do we really need to go through every traitor legions super special snowflake Drizzt do'Urden character who is raging against the machine?

And especially for a legion that was as notorious in its operations even before the coming of Curze to its head? And Curze disowning the legion pretty much after he realised it was as broken as he was as a result of the Nostraman influence and he destroyed his "home" planet.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Vaz said:


> What about the Word Bearers?
> 
> Anyway, you needn't be a raging psychopath, nor a follower of the Imperials. It's very... contrived, is all I can think of to really describe it, and just feels like there's a case for "ooh we must have a "loyalist" traitor. But we've already done that. We've already had the whole loyalist traitor, as that was what set up the scene initially as a result of Garro and the Eisenstein, plus a side show by Tarvitz and Loken.
> 
> ...


I think I get where you're coming from. More an issue of us seeing too many loyalist traitors throughout countless stories rather than them being inconceivable in certain Legions? 

If that's what you mean, then I would agree. It's kind of been done already. What is more annoying though is:

The countless Knights Errant recruitment stories only for those recruited to be sent on the most retarded suicide mission conceivable!


Aside from that, Fel Zharost being a 'loyalist' is perfectly reasonable. He's not a character who is screaming "For the Emperor!". In fact...

...he doesn't really seem interested in being loyal to the Emperor at all. More that he was forcibly exiled from his Legion by Sevatar so returned to the only place he knew. He was a part of the small Terran minority left in the VIII Legion, and it seems that they all felt quite passionately about how the Nostramans had poisoned the Legion (which is rational).

He believed he was being hunted and was going to be executed for his breaking of the Nikaean Edict, not because his Legion had joined Horus. He didn't know anything about that. So really, he was 'loyalist' by default and circumstance, not out of any particular love or loyalty to the Emperor/Imperium.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> There's already at least one Night Lord loyalist fighting for the Raven Guard in one of the books.


No there's not. There is a traitor Raven Guard fighting for the Night Lords however.



Vaz said:


> What about the Word Bearers?


There has been a loyalist Word Bearer, was part of the Crusader Host on Terra. Makes at least one loyalist from all the traitor legions apart from the Alpha Legion, because who knows what the fuck they are ever up to or where their loyalties lie.

But I do get your point. And again as CotE said, and as I said before. They would be a lot more interesting if they weren't just being thrown away like any run of the mill astartes on retarded missions.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Vaz said:


> What about the Word Bearers?


I point you towards all the Terrans that were killed because they wouldn't follow Lorgar. Also in The Purge, a Word Bearer member of the Crusader Host is murdered by Jarulek and Sor Talgron because he refuses to become monsters like them.



Angel of Blood said:


> No there's not. There is a traitor Raven Guard fighting for the Night Lords however.


Actually there is. In _Ravenlord_ during Corax's council note is made of a loyalist Night Lord that has joined Corax's ad-hoc guerrilla force. He only gets one line and doesn't appear again though.


LotN


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Actually there is. In _Ravenlord_ during Corax's council note is made of a loyalist Night Lord that has joined Corax's ad-hoc guerrilla force. He only gets one line and doesn't appear again though.


I rescind my previous statement. As of yet I still haven't had the motivation to read Ravenlord. Or Damnation of Pythos for that matter.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> Not really. Not any more absurd than loyalist World Eater


The World Eaters were the Warhounds before.

They had some semblance of honor and restraint.

The Night Lords were always rapists and murderers.


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## Snokvor (Aug 3, 2014)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The World Eaters were the Warhounds before.
> 
> They had some semblance of honor and restraint.
> 
> The Night Lords were always rapists and murderers.


No, they were not. Just like every other legion, the first wave of marines was composed from those who were borne on Terra, not on Nostramo. It's later when Night Haunter has joined his Legion the recruits from Nostramo started to come. So by the time the Heresy has started there were plenty of those who probably didn't like what was happing but kept their mouth shut because of the "Esprit de Corps".


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Yes because clearly the Night Lords prior to reuniting with their primarch recruited from Terran children of aristocratic scholars and law-abiding citizens just as the Ultramarines did.


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

Yeah I think Massacre basically says that the Night Lords always recruited criminals and psychopaths, just ones that were less so than the Nostraman crowd.


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## Snokvor (Aug 3, 2014)

Logically it doesn't make any sense. Any Legion full of "murders and rapists" would've been purged by the authorities who were in charge of them long before the Legion re-unification with their Primarch.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Each legion was created for a purpose. The Night Lords to scare populations into submission without firing a bullet. They do that by being tried and true rapists and murderers and by terrorizing. 

The Emperor sanctioned a lot of shit to an extent because he was in a race against the pantheon and he knew from experience that he had to fight monsters with his own monsters i.e. the Unspeakable King.

Curze pulled the plug on his own legion because he realized he was fueling the very thing he despised.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Each legion was created for a purpose. The Night Lords to scare populations into submission without firing a bullet. They do that by being tried and true rapists and murderers and by terrorizing.
> 
> The Emperor sanctioned a lot of shit to an extent because he was in a race against the pantheon and he knew from experience that he had to fight monsters with his own monsters i.e. the Unspeakable King.
> 
> Curze pulled the plug on his own legion because he realized he was fueling the very thing he despised.


most of those purposes had been rewritten. I'm not sure how the overall Imperium viewed Curzes' worlds, but the fact that Dorn questioned it and the fact those worlds fell to treason fairly quickly says a lot. Not sure if it was the Emperor's will that those recruits be put into the pool like that.

Though I'm sure fans would like it to be so, I'm afraid like the World Eaters, the Night Lords condemned themselves to ruin based of the madness of their Primarchs.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> most of those purposes had been rewritten. I'm not sure how the overall Imperium viewed Curzes' worlds, but the fact that Dorn questioned it and the fact those worlds fell to treason fairly quickly says a lot. Not sure if it was the Emperor's will that those recruits be put into the pool like that.
> 
> Though I'm sure fans would like it to be so, I'm afraid like the World Eaters, the Night Lords condemned themselves to ruin based of the madness of their Primarchs.


The Emperor never outright condemned the NL due to their progress (whereas he did with Lorgar who was going too slow on account of his shrine building) so Dorn took it upon himself to censure his wayward brother just like Russ did with Angron. 

It's only when Curze destroyed his own world that the Emperor decided he had to step in to maintain the image of his Imperium and his control over his sons.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

The Night Lords of Terra were recruited from the _Children_ of the murderers and rapists, not the criminals themselves.


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

Well I'm sure their parents raised them as noble, upstanding citizens, just like those non-criminal parents :wink:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

For general clarification, the wording from _Masscare_ about the first VIIIth Legion recruits is as follows:

"The VIIIth Legion were soaked in blood from their birth. The Legion's first recruits came from the linked prison sinks of Ancient Terra. In vast caverns filled with the half crushed ruins of millennia there lived men and women who had transgressed against the laws of their masters. Condemned never to see the light again or breathe free air, they lived out their lives in fear and blind darkness. There was no law in these lightless lands, and survival existed only by a blade's edge. Only the strongest and the most ruthless survived in the subterranean warrens, and those who did grew in cruelty and cunning. Fed by a constant influx from the hives above, the prison sinks were an ever hungering gate to madness and murder... Amongst the bloodshed and fear, children were born. Cradled in the dark, and raised amongst death, those who lived over a decade were pale, silent creatures who moved without a sound. 'The night's children' the prisoners called them, and even the most savage of killers would not seek them out by choice. It was from these pale children that the Emperor would make the first warriors of the VIIIth Legion."

In general, a similar culture and environment to Nostramo, it would seem. Albeit not on the same scale.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Good info from CotE, but Massacre also mentions the differing philosophies of the Terran and Nostraman Night Lords.

The Nostramans of course were gangsters, or at least the second generation of them were. Murderers, thieves, traitors and rapists; they perverted the ideal of the VIIIth Legion by bringing their lust for blood and torture into the mix. The Night Lords did bad things for a greater ideal, they used fear as a weapon to force recalcitrant peoples into submission, so that the Imperium wouldn't have to waste lives by putting down endless rebellions. We know that the Emperor approved of such things as he remarked on Nostramo when he saw it as _"A model of compliance."_ I'm sure the Emperor would prefer his people were happy, but ultimately he could accept the Night Lords method so long as it produced results and they knew where the line was. The Nostramans didn't care about the line or the mission, they cared only about indulging wherever they could. Spreading fear became their goal, rather than the end result of that fear.

The Terrans though were the opposite, ironically they were the ideal that Konrad Curze supposedly strove for. They understood that fear can be a weapon and they used it for the greater good of the Imperium. They did horrible things, like the Nostramans, but they did them for a purpose beyond their own enjoyment and were willing to be directed and ordered, knowing where the line was and were in general; more controllable than the Nostramans. Likely this is due to the prison-based upbringing the original Night Lords had, they learned how to use the darkness and fear but were never truly criminals themselves, thus they weren't as resistant to authority as the Nostramans were. And the extra time they spent with the Emperor would have moulded a more mission-oriented mind in the Legion as a whole, whereas the future Night Lords spent almost no time with the Emperor and even very little with Curze as a stable individual, rather they were inducted among their fellow Night Lords, who as time went on became a group mostly comprised of people who only cared about causing fear, rather than bringing order through fear. And without a steady influx of Terran recruits who could bring their own culture with them, the Nostraman culture dominated and changed the Night Lords.

So I don't think that a loyalist Night Lord is implausible, far from it in-fact. I would say there could be a lot of them since we don't know that the Night Lords ever initiated a purge in their own ranks. That said, if any Legion could expect the majority of it's Terran population to turn traitor, it would be the Night Lords since the divide between loyalist and traitor wouldn't be their actions, it would be their motivation behind those actions, and motivation can be an easy thing to change sometimes. But I do think that there could be quite a few Night Lords in the Heresy who remained true to the original ideal of the VIIIth.


LotN


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Just finished it. For a very short story, it was quite good.
> 
> If anyone wishes to know the plot:
> 
> ...




A loyalist NL I found intriguing, but to make him just another of Garro and his Merry Men. But it's nice that he was allowed to live as most characters are unfortunately killed off before they get some proper development. But did Sevatar have any proper good reason for exiling him?




Angel of Blood said:


> So excluding those featured in _Vengeful Spirit_, that means we also have Zharost, and a as of yet unamed Thousand Son member of the Knights Errant. Wonder how long they will last before these apparently very valuable and unique individuals are sent on another suicide mission.


I haven't read that book, but it saddens me to read they would waste those characters just for the sake of it. Kinda like Nemiel all over again.



Lord of the Night said:


> So I don't think that a loyalist Night Lord is implausible, far from it in-fact. I would say there could be a lot of them since we don't know that the Night Lords ever initiated a purge in their own ranks. That said, if any Legion could expect the majority of it's Terran population to turn traitor, it would be the Night Lords since the divide between loyalist and traitor wouldn't be their actions, it would be their motivation behind those actions, and motivation can be an easy thing to change sometimes. But I do think that there could be quite a few Night Lords in the Heresy who remained true to the original ideal of the VIIIth.


They didn't have a purge of their own, but since the Legion is so self-destructive, they killed each other with nothing to stop them. When looking back at ADB NL-stuff, they could kill each other just for looking at each other in a wrong way.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

forkmaster said:


> A loyalist NL I found intriguing, but to make him just another of Garro and his Merry Men. But it's nice that he was allowed to live as most characters are unfortunately killed off before they get some proper development. But did Sevatar have any proper good reason for exiling him?




It is stated that they maintain a mutual hatred of one another. Zharost admits that the remaining Terran contingent are "an ill-favoured and withering remnant". After goading him, Zharost also psychically attacked Sevatar, who then subsequently exiles him.
 



Lord of the Night said:


> Good info from CotE, but Massacre also mentions the differing philosophies of the Terran and Nostraman Night Lords.
> 
> The Nostramans of course were gangsters, or at least the second generation of them were. Murderers, thieves, traitors and rapists; they perverted the ideal of the VIIIth Legion by bringing their lust for blood and torture into the mix. The Night Lords did bad things for a greater ideal, they used fear as a weapon to force recalcitrant peoples into submission, so that the Imperium wouldn't have to waste lives by putting down endless rebellions. We know that the Emperor approved of such things as he remarked on Nostramo when he saw it as _"A model of compliance."_ I'm sure the Emperor would prefer his people were happy, but ultimately he could accept the Night Lords method so long as it produced results and they knew where the line was. The Nostramans didn't care about the line or the mission, they cared only about indulging wherever they could. Spreading fear became their goal, rather than the end result of that fear.
> 
> ...


I don't think such a clear distinction can be made between the Terran and Nostraman contigents to be honest. That may apply to some, but certainly not all. Many Nostramans hated Curze and his insanity and many Terrans had adopted terror just as wholeheartedly as the Nostraman murderers and criminals had. Zharost gives us an interesting insight concerning the remaining VIIIth Legion Terrans:


I wish that I could say that those of us [Terrans] who remained were an island of slowly fading nobility, but that would have been a lie. There were few who saw the difference between what we had been and what we had become. Even those who had once served judgement were now servants to terror. Sometimes I wondered if there ever was a difference [between the Terrans and Nostramans].


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

We now know who the spear-leaning figure on the plinth is in the Emperor's Gift. A shame it wasn't really Sevatar.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Did he have a spear/glaive? Still doesn't set it in stone...(yup, I did that). But then I've never honestly bought into the theory anyway. I like it and think it's fun, but don't seriously think it would happen.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

> Before we left the Dead Fields, I paid my respects at
> the Tomb of the Eight. Here, immortalised in blood
> jade, the first eight Grand Masters of the Brotherhoods
> stood at the catacombs’ entrance. Seven of them
> ...



While not having read Child of the Night yet, it's not exactly clear, and is just wishful thinking from the information that's given. After all, if it's a case of the Grey Knights being made of 8 brotherhoods lead by 8 loyalists-from-traitors - which legion didn't make the cut? And so many other options that we can categorically say.

After all, it wasn't long ago that it was Sevatar (despite him being confirmed killed, IIRC in one of the Night Lord Trilogy as well as him being the first to say "Death to the False Emperor"), and now we've got someone else.

This is guess work, nothing more.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Did he have a spear/glaive? Still doesn't set it in stone...(yup, I did that). But then I've never honestly bought into the theory anyway. I like it and think it's fun, but don't seriously think it would happen.




No but he kept leaning on his staff and attempted to do so in Sevatar's presence as well. Seemed obvious to me especially since he gets picked up by Garro.

“I leaned on my staff, both hands resting upon the crystal-cored iron.”

“Sevatar stepped from the throne’s dais to the floor. His movements, even in armour, were like those of a cat. I did not move. Out of habit I made to lean on my staff, but like the hood which had once circled my skull, it was gone”

Also all nemesis weapons amplify their user's powers like psyker staffs do. So him switching to a glaive/spear later on would make sense.


@Vaz: didn't two 1K sons make the cut? That would make one of the traitor legions not get picked.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> No but he kept leaning on his staff and attempted to do so in Sevatar's presence as well. Seemed obvious to me especially since he gets picked up by Garro.
> 
> “I leaned on my staff, both hands resting upon the crystal-cored iron.”
> 
> ...


Hmmm still not convinced. Haven't read it in a while, but is Sevetar described as leaning on his glaive when talking to Corswain back in _Savage Weapons_? It's how I recall it anyway. 

Only one unamed Thousand Son has made the cut so far, Atharva is kicking around with the Scars, but hasn't been near Malcador, Garro or their suicide squad yet. A Word Bearer hasn't appeared yet, and I can't imagine theirs many out their going off their purges. Though with Word Bearers like Narek around, it's not an impossibility, even if he can't be described as a loyalist per se. The Alpha Legion are typically unrepresented, but then that's a given and I doubt we will see them. 

There's nothing to say that all eight have to be from the traitor legions either though. Two of them could be Rubio and Tyrfingr for all we know.


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## Valrak (Jul 23, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> Hmmm still not convinced. Haven't read it in a while, but is Sevetar described as leaning on his glaive when talking to Corswain back in _Savage Weapons_? It's how I recall it anyway.
> 
> Only one unamed Thousand Son has made the cut so far, Atharva is kicking around with the Scars, but hasn't been near Malcador, Garro or their suicide squad yet. A Word Bearer hasn't appeared yet, and I can't imagine theirs many out their going off their purges. Though with Word Bearers like Narek around, it's not an impossibility, even if he can't be described as a loyalist per se. *The Alpha Legion are typically unrepresented*, but then that's a given and I doubt we will see them.
> 
> There's nothing to say that all eight have to be from the traitor legions either though. Two of them could be Rubio and Tyrfingr for all we know.




Janus = Omegon


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Valrak said:


> Janus = Omegon


Yep. That's what I think too.


LotN


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## Valrak (Jul 23, 2011)

Lord of the Night said:


> Yep. That's what I think too.
> 
> 
> LotN




The evidence is really hard to argue with, espically when listening to Mortartion's Heart.


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

What evidence Valrak?


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## Valrak (Jul 23, 2011)

Anakwanar said:


> What evidence Valrak?




Well first things first , in the short story 'Feat of Iron' Alpharius anf Omegon are represented with a statue of the God Janus, what exactly is Janus? In the Roman religion, Janus is the God of change and time - he is shown as having two faces. Now others have noted that on Omegons armour, 'Seeming Plain and unadorned', you could argue that he has this so he can infiltrate easier, but I personally think that they make a point of it, much like Garros armour. Personally I think the biggest hint yet is Mortartion's Heart audio drama, Mortartion starts a monologue on how Draigo and the Chapter would be shaken to their core about their beloved Janus, a brother who betrayed his brother seeking some kind of pitty redemption.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Interesting. Would be an interesting development. But I just see GW and the BL and permanently treating the XXth and their Primarchs as mysteries and big 'or is it/are they' 'just as planned' etc etc.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Do the current Grey Knights even know that their founders consisted of Astartes from the traitor Legions as well though? Mortarions words could just as easily apply to the like of Loken and co.

In any case, I'll wait and see, I just hope they get on with it.


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

I see =) Thanks Valrak :grin: Really good connection of dots


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## Valrak (Jul 23, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> Do the current Grey Knights even know that their founders consisted of Astartes from the traitor Legions as well though? Mortarions words could just as easily apply to the like of Loken and co.
> 
> In any case, I'll wait and see, I just hope they get on with it.


Would they even have access to that information? Quoting the text which Vaz kindly posted:



Even our records, meticulous as we liked to believe them, still suffered from human error when inscribed,and a great deal of our records were sequestered by knight-lords and our Inquisitorial masters. 


Now add that to 10,000 years of war, plus Knights taking on new names. I would say with confidence that the founding members of the Grey Knights will never be known, maybe when we get to Terra and Malcador does his thing we might get to know the first founding members.

Either way we're in for a good ride


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Valrak said:


> Would they even have access to that information? Quoting the text which Vaz kindly posted:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly. Which to me makes Mortarions words very broad, he could mean a whole number of people. Nothing about that screams Omegon or Alpharius to me, sure it can fit for them, but it can also fit for a plethora of others.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I for one would not be happy that half a primarch was one of the founding members of the Grey Knights despite being the best of them. 

The GK'a are supposed to be the best of what mankind has to offer. The primarchs were flawed and not human.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The World Eaters were the Warhounds before.
> 
> They had some semblance of honor and restraint.
> 
> The Night Lords were always rapists and murderers.


1. Why can't we have loyalist rapists and murderers? Loyalist doesn't mean honourable. Are you forgetting psycho-indoctrination (which should include loyalty to the Imperium)? Maybe some rejected Curze's beliefs. Maybe some hate the Nostramans and their primarch. Maybe some stay loyal out of convenience (they're isolated from the bulk of their legion and surrounded by loyalists)

2. Why are you bringing up Warhounds? There were loyalist World Eaters with nails (most certainly not Warhounds). Why can't there be loyalist Night Lords? 

3. The Terran VIIIth weren't all rapists and murderers. They were simply inhabitants of gigantic Terran prison systems. A lot of the inhabitants were born in prison. Others might've been thrown in for infractions other than rape and murder. Even murder isn't always a sick, sadistic crime...a lot of murder is committed in the heat of passion or out of desperation. 

4. Other NL loyalists might've been non-Terran and non-Nostraman. I believe the NL recruit from other worlds

Nostramo was a sick, twisted society. The Terrans were hard nuts, but they probably weren't as mentally twisted/sadistic. I believe Child of the Night describes them more as hardcore survivalists (correct me if I'm wrong). I honestly don't see why there can't be loyalist Terran/Nostraman Night Lords when there are loyalist Cthonians, loyalist World Eater berserkers...


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Deus Mortis said:


> Well I'm sure their parents raised them as noble, upstanding citizens, just like those non-criminal parents :wink:


...or their parents didn't bother doing much raising at all


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> 1. Why can't we have loyalist rapists and murderers? Loyalist doesn't mean honourable. Are you forgetting psycho-indoctrination? Maybe some rejected Curze's beliefs.


Would the Imperial Fists or Ultramarines have picked up recruits with bad histories and inducted them into their ranks because psycho-indoctrination would absolve them of their sins? Psycho-indoctrination erases memories and brainwashes initiates, it doesn't change their core personalities.



MontytheMighty said:


> 3. The Terran VIIIth weren't all rapists and murderers. They were simply inhabitants of gigantic Terran prison systems. A lot of the inhabitants were born in prison. Others might've been thrown in for infractions other than rape and murder. Even murder isn't always a sick, sadistic crime...a lot of murder is committed in the heat of passion or out of desperation.


The Terran Night Lords were the best of what the prison sinks had to offer i.e. the strongest/most willing to survive. In their underworld societies that meant joining gangs and raping left and right to prove your worth to gang leaders and killing for similar and other reasons.

Murder within the prison sinks was not committed out of desperation or in 'the heat of passion.' It was to prove your strength to others so as to not become prey yourself and to survive (which is not the same as desperation).

_In vast caverns filled with the half crushed ruins of millennia there lived men and women who had *transgressed against the laws of their masters*. Condemned never to see the light again or breathe free air, they lived out their lives in fear and blind darkness. There was no law in these lightless lands, and survival existed only by a blade's edge. *Only the strongest and the most ruthless survived in the subterranean warrens, and those who did grew in cruelty and cunning.*_



MontytheMighty said:


> Nostramo was a sick, twisted society. The Terrans were hard nuts...but they probably weren't as mentally twisted/sadistic.


You base the levels of depravity between the two on what exactly? Curze took out his homeworld because he could. He obviously could not have touched Terra.



MontytheMighty said:


> I believe Child of the Night describes them more as hardcore survivalists (correct me if I'm wrong). I honestly don't see why there can't be loyalist Terran/Nostraman Night Lords when there are loyalist Cthonians, loyalist World Eater berserkers...


Cthonian society, while brutal and gang-like, has never been described as being anything close to what Nostromian/Terran prison-sink life was like.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Would the Imperial Fists or Ultramarines have picked up recruits with bad histories and inducted them into their ranks because psycho-indoctrination would absolve them of their sins? Psycho-indoctrination erases memories and brainwashes initiates, it doesn't change their core personalities.


That obviously varies by era, etc. We can see that the indoctrination and conditioning processes didn't really change recruits during the Great Crusade era. We also know that many of the legions that fell to Chaos used accelerated processes, so it could be plausibly argued that the flaws that pre-existed (gang mentalities, savagery, anti-social complexes, etc.) would still exist in Space Marines that completed their training. 

Following the Scouring, we can see that indoctrination and conditioning vary by Chapter. In _The Emperor's Gift,_ for instance, we see that the Grey Knights more or less completely erase the pre-existing identity. In _Ravenwing,_ we have evidence that Dark Angels are probably divested of most of their memories. Conversely, in the Ultramarines novels, Uriel Ventris routinely summons up detailed memories of his past, and we have no reason to believe that his Chapter wants to condition them away: Ultramar's entire society and culture exist to produce exactly the kind of mindset they want in their recruits. 



> Cthonian society, while brutal and gang-like, has never been described as being anything close to what Nostromian/Terran prison-sink life was like.


It's certainly not as sophisticated. It can also be argued that the conditions on Nostramo were imposed from the top down, whereas the Chthonian mindset was a result of a brutal struggle to survive on a dying world bereft of resources. That having been said, I think it's folly to argue that the Chthonian existence wasn't every bit as brutal and savage as that of Nostraman gangs. _Betrayal_ makes that rather clear, I think.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> That obviously varies by era, etc. We can see that the indoctrination and conditioning processes didn't really change recruits during the Great Crusade era. We also know that many of the legions that fell to Chaos used accelerated processes, so it could be plausibly argued that the flaws that pre-existed (gang mentalities, savagery, anti-social complexes, etc.) would still exist in Space Marines that completed their training.


Welcome back. So correct me if I'm wrong but you're agreeing with me in that the core essences of individual recruits remains post psycho-indoctrination, yes?



Phoebus said:


> Following the Scouring, we can see that indoctrination and conditioning vary by Chapter. In _The Emperor's Gift,_ for instance, we see that the Grey Knights more or less completely erase the pre-existing identity.


I would argue that the Grey Knights require a much more refined/powerful form of psycho-indoctrination given the secretive purpose of their creation and the fact that daemons in possession of their real names would prove disastrous. Thus it would stand to reason that their methods of PI would differ vastly than regular Astartes.



Phoebus said:


> In _Ravenwing,_ we have evidence that Dark Angels are probably divested of most of their memories. Conversely, in the Ultramarines novels, Uriel Ventris routinely summons up detailed memories of his past, and we have no reason to believe that his Chapter wants to condition them away: Ultramar's entire society and culture exist to produce exactly the kind of mindset they want in their recruits.


Let us not pretend that certain authors and the creative liberties they've taken that go against the majority of established lore are taken as canon by most readers. :grin:



Phoebus said:


> It's certainly not as sophisticated. It can also be argued that the conditions on Nostramo were imposed from the top down, whereas the Chthonian mindset was a result of a brutal struggle to survive on a dying world bereft of resources.
> 
> That having been said, I think it's folly to argue that the Chthonian existence wasn't every bit as brutal and savage as that of Nostraman gangs. _Betrayal_ makes that rather clear, I think.


The same can be said of Deliverance then. Dare I say the conditions of Cthonia and Deliverance were almost identical and yet one legion came out without the gang mentality. 

Medusa even. If I am not mistaken, in Betrayal/Massacre, it's stated that Manus's planet consisted of gangs that pillaged neighboring tribes via massive tank-cities. Yet, the Iron Hands seemed to have eschewed anything resembling the barbarity of gangs.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Would the Imperial Fists or Ultramarines have picked up recruits with bad histories and inducted them into their ranks because psycho-indoctrination would absolve them of their sins? Psycho-indoctrination erases memories and brainwashes initiates, it doesn't change their core personalities.


Loyalty =/= Honour/Morality
Part of that brainwashing likely instilled loyalty to the Imperium. Brainwashing may have been more effective on some recruits than on others. Perhaps the brainwashing worked exceptionally well on loyalist Night Lords?

Look...sure you could be a nasty, sadistic thug, but why can't you be a nasty, sadistic thug who chooses to operate within the Imperium, instead of following your mad father on a self-destructive rampage? 



> The Terran Night Lords were the best of what the prison sinks had to offer i.e. the strongest/most willing to survive. In their underworld societies that meant joining gangs and raping left and right to prove your worth to gang leaders and killing for similar and other reasons.


The Terrans sound more like survivalists, less like Nostramans who lived under relatively decent conditions but in a morally corrupt society (Talos lives in an apartment with his mother who feeds him spaghetti) 



> Murder within the prison sinks was not committed out of desperation or in 'the heat of passion.'


I'm talking about why they were thrown in



> It was to prove your strength to others so as to not become prey yourself and to survive (which is not the same as desperation).


Sounds kinda like desperation to me



> _In vast caverns filled with the half crushed ruins of millennia there lived men and women who had *transgressed against the laws of their masters*. Condemned never to see the light again or breathe free air, they lived out their lives in fear and blind darkness. There was no law in these lightless lands, and survival existed only by a blade's edge. *Only the strongest and the most ruthless survived in the subterranean warrens, and those who did grew in cruelty and cunning.*_


...and these Terrans are inherently different from Cthonians how exactly? 



> You base the levels of depravity between the two on what exactly? Curze took out his homeworld because he could. He obviously could not have touched Terra.


Do you have a problem with Cthonian loyalists?



> Cthonian society, while brutal and gang-like, has never been described as being anything close to what Nostromian/Terran prison-sink life was like.


Umm...have you read Betrayal's info on Cthonia? Cthonia sounds worse than either

Predatory, possibly cannibalistic murder-gangs roaming the collapsed subterranean tunnel network, killing and raiding because many enjoy the violence

If I were to choose one of them, it would be Nostramo first and then a toss-up between Cthonia and the prison-sinks, slightly preferring the prison-sinks. On Nostramo, I might get to live in an apartment and eat canned pasta


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## Scrad (Apr 4, 2014)

MontytheMighty said:


> (Talos lives in an apartment with his mother who feeds him spaghetti)


This will always be such a great mental image. :laugh:


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I always thought that _Lord of the Night_ (the book by Simon Spurrier) made a pretty good distinction between the Terran and the Nostraman Night Lords; the Night Lords' arrival on Equixos horrifies Sahaal, as does Krieg Acerbus and his (accurate) perception of how the 'new' Night Lords fought.



MontytheMighty said:


> (Talos lives in an apartment with his mother who feeds him spaghetti)


His mother, who frequently came home bloody after her pimp beat her, and looked 70 by the time she was 50? Nostramo was shitty; it was less shitty if you lived on the city fringes like Mercutian, but it was still a life of violence and crime. The only distinction was whether you were the don or the thug.


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