# Greenskins Vs High Elves



## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey everyone,

I hold a group every Wednesday and there are five of us that play, Lizardmen, Orcs, High elves, Empire and myself (Dwarfs). I have won quite a few games recently but my friend who plays as Greenkskins has never won a battle, he doesn't seem to do anything wrong and I'd really like to give him a few pointers so he has a hope on the battlefield against what I consider to be a very powerful high elf army. Our current campaign means we fight to the death as there can be no retreat.

As far as I can remember my friend's Orc army consists of:
Boss on Wyvern
BSB
40 Orcs with spears
40 night goblins
10 spider riders
10 Boar boyz
Orc chariot
3x goblin fanatics
3 trolls
10-20 black orcs

Any help would be greatly appreciated as I don't like to think of anyone being put off playing warhammer because they keep loosing.

Cheers guys!


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

OnG V. high Elves is a bit of an unforgiving matchup. I can see a few problems though:

Black Orcs, cost to many points for not many bonuses, just waited points against the HE.

Warboss on Wyver, unless you play with a TONNE of terrain so he can hide that warboss, he is just magic missile/bolt thrower fodder

Trolls, how does he use them? If he is leaving them on their own he probably wont be getting to much out of them, with the general flying around on a Wyvern

Boar Boyz, they can be alright, but High Elven cavalry will smash them, if I used them at all I would make them big uns, and aim for the most destructive flank charge you can.

Orcs with Spears are a solid choice, perhaps take a large unit and make them Big' Uns for solid ranks of Str 4 attacks? good vs. High Elves

If he isnt too put out by changing his army, something very nasty OnG can do is spam low level wizards, to just obliterate the enemy in a swarm of magic missile, 6 Goblin shamans, means you have every spell, but importantly, the signature spell of the Little waaagh! str 2 Vs. High elves is a real killer. 

Hope this helps


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> If he isnt too put out by changing his army, something very nasty OnG can do is spam low level wizards, to just obliterate the enemy in a swarm of magic missile, 6 Goblin shamans, means you have every spell, but importantly, the signature spell of the Little waaagh! str 2 Vs. High elves is a real killer.


Low level wizard spam isn't very reliable anymore. The only real benefit you get is channeling and that's a gimmick. Just go with a Level 4 wizard if you can.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> OnG V. high Elves is a bit of an unforgiving


I hear you man, since the new edition some HE units are mental!, Sword masters eat through troops! I just can't see any hard hitters in the OnG team that can stand up to that.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Gromrir Silverblade said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> As far as I can remember my friend's Orc army consists of:
> Boss on Wyvern


Boss on anything but maybe a Boar is a waste of points. Better to get some more cheap troops/characters with the wyvvern points.


> BSB


Hope he's using the banner that gives your rank bonus in extra dispell dice. Where are the gobbo shamans. Usually 2 is good. A tactic is to run the cheap ones up to the Elf swordslicers, and keep throwing six dice until he blows up. Then another, and another. 


> 40 Orcs with spears


Try for fifty.


> 40 night goblins


Add another unit with x3 fanatics.


> 10 spider riders
> 10 Boar boyz


Spiders! BAH! They aren't worth their points right now. Marchish, who can tell, new codex, but now? Recycle.


> Orc chariot


Needs more than one or none.


> 3x goblin fanatics
> 3 trolls
> 10-20 black orcs


Trolls need to be in blocks of 9. If he can't afford 9, don't go. With the black orcs recycled, he probably could.


> Any help would be greatly appreciated as I don't like to think of anyone being put off playing warhammer because they keep loosing.
> 
> Cheers guys!


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Bolt Throwers are nice and cheap, and Rock Lobbers cause Horrendous Damage to High Elves. And with Light Armour, Rerolling Misses and Striking First is not conducive to good health - even with T4.

Strangely, despite BS2/3, Ranged might be the way to go. It's cheap enough to take in numbers, and a block of 40 Goblins is a reasonably effective Speed Block if they do happen to get an unwanted result with animosity.

Two things I've found work well - Stone Trolls (MR2 gives them a slightly less effective regeneration, in units of 9+), and Doom Diver Spam.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey guys, thought I'd give you an update on how it went.

The orc player went with (as far as I can remember)
38 big uns (that's all he has) with a boss in them
60 night goblins with spears and bows and a poison banner
10x Borcs
8 Boar Boys with Gorbad in with them
3 Stone trolls (that's all he has)
1 Boar Chariot
Wyvern
3x Goblin Fanatics
Rock lobber

And the HE player went with
Some character guy on a griffon
Caradrin with 10 Swordmasters
The leader of the white lions bloke with 20 white lions
16x archers
16x spearmen
10x Lothern Sea Guard
1x White Lion chariot
5x shadow warriors
1x repeater bolt thrower
5x Ellyrion Reavers

That may not be exactly right but as close as I can remember.

Basically the battle was mostly one sided with the HE dominating.

In the middle the gobbo and orc big uns legging it down the middle with the trolls lumbering along due to rubbish stupidity rolls on the left. Down the right he had the boar boys, wyvern and chariots and the black orcs were somewhere in the middle.

On the right the boar boys charged the reavers who fled as a reaction, but was then countered by the swordmasters. The two chariots got into a stand off with the boar chariot eventually getting killed by the swordmasters after they had finished off the boar boys. 

The WL chariot was then charged by the wyvern which destroyed it but rather than flying the wyvern away to a tactically superior place he charged the swordmasters which inevitably butchered it. Down the middle the main orc blob attacked the spearmen and sea guard and was holding its own until it got flank charged by the WLs and fled. The gobbos poison archery took its toll on the WL and a load of archers and held firm. It also released the three fanatics which chopped through the griffon leaving the rider with one wound. After it was again shot by the gobbos the monsters reaction was to stay was and become a griffon road block (essentially removing it from combat)

Next the borcs charged the sea guard, but after loosing the combat fled and were cut down. This left the gobbos, trolls and rock lobbers which misfired and killed itself. Eventually it ended with the gobbos being completely surrounded and cut down and the trolls being the last unit left but also died.

IMHO there were some key mistakes by the orc player. Firstly, he needed to drawn out the individual elf units and kill them rather than charge a unified line. You cannot kill swordmasters in combat, you have to shoot them.

Secondly the wyvern should have been tactical support rather than charging in head on against his hardest troops.

Thirdly there was a point when the gobbos had just routed the unit of sea guard and were facing the swordmasters but rather than shoot the advancing SM's he chose to finish off the sea guard trusting in his stand and shoot.

After watching the game I feel that the orc player could have won but only with sound tactics, but with three named characters, and 10 troops that do weapon skill 5 (I think) always strike first 18 re-rollable strength 5 hits with a minus 2 armour save, what change did he have?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

The greatest threat in that list was Caradryan with the Swordmasters. They munch through Light Troops, Heavy Troops are fairly scared by 15 S5 Attacks, and Monsters don't like Multiple Wounding weapons. And they're filthy WS6 nutters, "just because". Still, the HE Army is a travesty that's fairly pathetic - Adam Troke, "lol army wide ASF because their fast, and stuff, and high initiative and fast movement because their fast and stuffs lollolpol". And then names an item after himself. That's as useless as he is, basically. I hold no love for the knobber, if you couldn't tell.

I see a few major points that could have won the battle - 

The Boar Boyz have Light Armour (3+ Saves?), meaning that they're going to get shredded by Swordmasters. Fast Cavalry are certainly not going to stand up Boar Boyz in Close Combat - so it would have been obvious they'd have fled - and with the Swordmasters stepping up to complete the trap, that's Boar Boyz gone.

Spotting blatant traps like that will improve results straight away. Just sitting their would have meant that the Swordmasters would need to either be stuck their protecting against the Boar Boyz, or risk tricking off and trying to kill some Boyz. Reaver Knights are fairly poor in CC against all but small War Machine Crews or small low wound, low toughness, low attack monsters (Eagles and Pegasus, basically).

I love the Poisoned Goblin Archers. Does he have any more Archers/Goblin Standins? If so, I'd have dropped the Spears and taken even more Goblins. However, targetting the White Lions was a fairly poor choice - they have a 3+ Armour Save against Shooting, and without AP, or S4+, they will have wasted 66%+ of those attacks which even hit. They might look scary with 10 S6 Attacks (and they are, but not the extent in which they are worth targetting over Swordmasters). Swordmasters, only 10 of them, and with T3/5+ Saves? Say hitting on 5's, wounding on 4's, you're getting 20 hits, 10 of which wound, auto, and 5 which roll to wound. Rolling to save gets them 33% saved - or if you don't feel like doing the maths, is 5 saves, and 10 dead, leaving Caradyan on his own. Then, look at reducing Spearmen unit size (looking at doing the same amount of damage). Once the lines closed - the Griffon will be a threat - take him out - with Poison and no armour save, that should be meat, leaving the Prince on Foot - and munch for Boar Boyz (IIRC, Eltharion has no ward save, if that's who it was) if he's in the open.

The Boss on Wyvern should have gone a hunting for the Reavers, and fled to draw the SM's out of the battle if he'd fell for that - or if not, gone for the Bolt Thrower and get some points for that, before going after the Archers. Overkill, but it's small things like netting the 300 odd points from those two that can tip the battle in your favour. Only after the easy points are knabbed should he return to the battle - namely going after the rear of the Spears, or perhaps a lone character.

So, to some up -

1. Boar Boyz should have stood off and not commited to the charge. It would have been better to flee rather than go take the brunt of such a filthy unit.
2. Poisoned Goblin Archers are awesome - however, targetting something with a 3+ Save against Shooting is asking for sillyness. In this game, Caradryan's Swordmasters and the Spearmen were quite big threats.
3. The Wyvern was your fastest mover - don't bog it down in a combat, especially when it's not that good (without a Ward Save, and with a standard Armour Save, elite combat troops are devastating). Use it to harrass supporting units, it's no longer a line breaker.

Otherwise, it seems that he worked quite well with what he had, and as long as he learns from certain mistakes, then his game will improve. All the best.!


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## blackspine (Jun 9, 2010)

Vaz said:


> The greatest threat in that list was Caradryan with the Swordmasters. They munch through Light Troops, Heavy Troops are fairly scared by 15 S5 Attacks, and Monsters don't like Multiple Wounding weapons. And they're filthy WS6 nutters, "just because". Still, the HE Army is a travesty that's fairly pathetic - Adam Troke, "lol army wide ASF because their fast, and stuff, and high initiative and fast movement because their fast and stuffs lollolpol". And then names an item after himself. That's as useless as he is, basically. I hold no love for the knobber, if you couldn't tell.


This.
+++ REP.
Elves in any genre are always absurdly powerful and heaped with glory and praise. Why? Because somewhere some one wants to be a beaaaautiful fey creature that rides on a high horse/ unicorn.

Back on track. 
Your friends army could have done much better vs the Elves. Making them come to him, volleys of gobbo shooting (poison banner?) fantatics for the Swordmasters, flank charges, using the wyvern to rear charge units.

Better luck to him next time and I can't wait to see the Elves teeth curb stomped by an ironshod green boot. 

WAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!

:grin:


*edit. Can't give you rep, hombre. 
not yet.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Thanks for the advice lads, I'll relay it to him.

I repped you both for speaking my words for me. Elves = gay and overpowered.

I love it when my friend fields massive uber characters bangs on about he has a sword that does such and such wounds and wipes his arse or something then takes a cannonball to the face. 

Dwarfs rule!!


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## Durzod (Nov 24, 2009)

Maybe throwing in Grimgor would help against the High elves. I think he'd help a lot more than the wyvern. 

Normally I'd say throw in a shaman or two to blast the elves to bits, as they seem to be pretty much defenseless. However he runs the risk of prodding the elf into adding in magic. And let's face it, the elves are better at that, too. Smarmy gitz! Though at some point magic is gonna have to rear its ugly head, and maybe it'd help your friend to strike first.

I applaud his willingness to put up with the whole animosity thing. Hope he sticks with it, as I've found O&G one of the most versatile armies out there. Dwarfs is ok, but they have difficulty outmaneuvering the scenery.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

I gotta say, Elves are insane in this current edition. They only really have two weaknesses- low strength and their fragility, and they can get around the latter easily enough. As a Lizardmen player, I take advantage of the low strength, but with your limited access to magic this isn't an option. Just flicking through your army book I see Rock Lobbas and Doom Diver Catapults, these seem to be your best options, seeing as how they get around your, let's face it, pathetic BS. In less than 3000pts, you can take 3 Rock Lobbers and two Doom Diver Catapults. This will take care of most stuff, but may have trouble with the White Lions, for which I can only suggest a couple of huge steadfast units of goblins, probably night goblins with fanatics to help soften the lion's charge. Speedbump them and then bring a some boar boyz to the rescue and finish them off. Maybe take some fast cav (he has spider riders?) to take out the RBTs.

Just my two cents. I should probably stress that I'm not an O&G player, but I do play against High Elves a lot, and I just love seeing the smarmy bastards die (unless I'm teamed up with them :Grin.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

Yeah I did suggest the doom diver, seems like a really good unit. Only thing with a steadfast night goblin unit is that it fears elves...DOH!


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## Durzod (Nov 24, 2009)

Goblins only fear elves if they don't outnumber them by at least 2:1. Even if they fear them, they're still steadfast, just WS 1.

Don't concern yourself with your "pathetic" BS. It's just as good as the Empire's. It's just that with the O&G's range you gotta get closer to be as effective on a model per model basis. But gobbo archers are so cheap their overall effectiveness is comparable.


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## Gromrir Silverblade (Sep 21, 2010)

OOh, did not know that, many thanks! Does that work with all units, i.e. is fear negated by more ranks?


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Gromrir Silverblade said:


> OOh, did not know that, many thanks! Does that work with all units, i.e. is fear negated by more ranks?


No. It is a special rule for Goblins that they fear Elves unless they outnumber them 2:1.


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## Truthteller (Sep 2, 2009)

A couple of points here.

1. Looking at your description of the HE list, it looks like about 2,250 points in total, but the Core is less than 25% of that -around 505 points (assuming all the Core units get Full Command). If that's right one would expect the list to be effective as the HE units that are relatively weak are the Core units whilst the Special choices are really strong. 

2. If this is intended to be a 2000 point list then I would guess the gremlin is the Character on the Griffon. The only special character on a Griffon is Eltharion who costs 285 points, but it costs an extra 205 points on top of that to mount him on Stormwing but you have to read the book carefully to notice that. 

3. I don't use Orcs or Goblins but I agree with Vaz that upping the shooting in the army will have real advantages. Not only will it allow you to whittle down the Elves at distance but it will force them to come to the O+G giving them a better chance of fighting in a co-ordinated fashion. 

4. One tactical point to bear in mind is that there's little to be gained from charging into HE. They still go first and the +1 on the CR for charging isn't much benefit. It's often better to let them charge and set yourself up to counter by hitting a flank or the like once they are engaged. 

5. The other is more general:- fewer bigger units are better than many small in 8th. The Orcs have a lot of 'bitty' units. Black Orcs need to be at least 25 strong, Trolls at least 6, there may be a role for one single model hard-hitting unit (ie chariot, Wyvern) but probably not two.

6. Lastly the Boarboyz need a re-think. I can understand why someone would be attached to using these, especially if they have the Gorbad model as the general, but cavalry are the big losers in 8th, and the weakness of having Gorbad romping around with them is that you haven't got the general's Ld in the centre of the army. The HE will make the Orcs take Ld tests and they need the Guv'nor there to lend a hand, not off on a frolic kicking in the head of some nobody over on the flank. 

Hope that helps (or at least makes sense),

TT


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## turel2 (Mar 2, 2009)

High elves are generally a defensive army, so let him come to you. 

HE hit first what ever happens, so lure them in. Archers and Goblin fanatics will help here.

If you can, charge the spear troops in the flank/rear. Cavalry is good for open flanks/rears.

Try to shoot the swordmasters, they are h2h combat monsters, but have a low toughness.

If any elves are in a deep formation, they are prime rock lobber targets.


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