# Pre-Heresy Company and Captains?



## Alexander (Mar 4, 2008)

Hello, guys.

I have been reading again and again the HH books, but I can't find any mention of the standard Astartes Company size of the Legions.

Also, what is exactly a Line Officer? Tarvitz mentions several times that he comforts with being a "line officer", but he is the Captain of the 10th Company of the Emperor's Children, IIRC.
Loken also mentions Nero Vipus, SARGENT of Locasta Squad, as a line officer...
Help, please? ::shok:


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## revenant13 (Feb 15, 2008)

Line officer is just a squad leader, like Nero. A sargent is a line officer, cause hes not a captain of anything. he just leads a single squad of 5 to 10 marines. 

As for the size of the companies thats a lot harder to tell because all the Legions being different sizes. Example: Ultramarines were the largest legion numbering in at LEAST 25,000 marines strong, but then the Emperor's Children got massively fucked when they were founded and so numbered less than a few thousand, until waaaaaay later. When they were finally powerful enough to be on their own i think they had somewhere around 10,000 marines. Another thing that would make it hard to tell company sizes is the number of companies each legion had. like i cant remember which legion, but there's one with over 20 companies, while Luna Wolves had like 10 or somethin. And i think blood angels or dark angles (cant remember which) call their companies chapters.


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## CallumM27 (Mar 20, 2008)

I think each legion had like 26 companies like in the 1st Horus Heresy books it said the Luna Wolves had a 25th companies "Lev Goshen - Captain, 25th Company. Then there were Chapters like the Space Wolve with 13 Great Companies which were the size of 2 companies. I think each ordinary company had 100 or more marines lead by a captain.


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## Alexander (Mar 4, 2008)

Thanks for your answers, guys. Really helpful. :biggrin:


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## Ljohnson (Apr 14, 2008)

A line officer is a Captain( leads a Company) a Sergeant is not a line officer he does however lead Squads. "Line Officers" in terms Horus Hersey are those marines who will always be with the Front(line) units. They have achieved greater rank than most of their brothers but will never rise above that in the "political heirarchy" of the space marines. For instance, Abaddon of the Lunar Wolves was Horus's First Captain and second in command of the Legion and the Mournival(SP?). While other captains were simply part of Legion. By his title alone you knew the Abaddon was higher ranking than the other captains. He rose above the simple "Line Officer" in status. Hope this sheds a little light for you.


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## Ferrus Manus 93 (Apr 17, 2008)

CallumM27 said:


> I think each legion had like 26 companies like in the 1st Horus Heresy books it said the Luna Wolves had a 25th companies "Lev Goshen - Captain, 25th Company. Then there were Chapters like the Space Wolve with 13 Great Companies which were the size of 2 companies. I think each ordinary company had 100 or more marines lead by a captain.


this is true but the death guard also hd 3 great companies, nero is refered to as a line officer as while loken is away on mournival bussines nero was acting captain. hope this helps.


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## Forsaken_Knight (Sep 10, 2008)

Sergeant Nero Vipus was never reffered to as a "line officer." The Captain that was reffered to as a line officer was Moy. Abaddon is not in command of the Mournival, no one is. The Mournival lies outside of the Legion's ranking system and therefore, they were all equals.


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

CallumM27 said:


> I think each legion had like 26 companies like in the 1st Horus Heresy books it said the Luna Wolves had a 25th companies "Lev Goshen - Captain, 25th Company. Then there were Chapters like the Space Wolve with 13 Great Companies which were the size of 2 companies. I think each ordinary company had 100 or more marines lead by a captain.


That can't be right, 26 companies x 100 marines is only 2600 marines in a legion....

Plus a captain isn't even a character and is a relatively low level rank, even in the twisted lore of 40k, so surely something as powerful as a pre-heresy company would be commanded by someone more important than that?

I would guess from the various fluff that I have read that companies of old were more or less the same size as post-heresy chapters, i.e. 1000 marines, otherwise how would legions be broken down in to multiple chapters?


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## Farseer Beltiac (Jul 11, 2008)

I'd thought the Luna Wolves would have at least 50,000 marines...maybe a little high for some but they were one of the main legions. But I can deal with downsizing.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

A company is roughly a hundred men, and a chapter is around ten companies. Some of the preheresy legions had upwards of one hundred thousand marines, whilst I think it's in HH Collected Visions that the Ultramarines are mentioned as having upwards of a _quarter of a million _ marines before the battle for Macragge. 

Aslo, the SW 13th company is reckoned to have had a thousand or so marines when it disappeared, leading me to believe that the other twelve companies would have something similar. (Which raises the question of their size now, seeing as how they're not exactly fans of the Codex Astartes.)

The size of any given formation in preHeresy legions would vary greatly from legion to legion, often reflecting the military organisations or tribal societies that the marines were recruited from. They weren't standardised until Guilliman stuck his nose in _after_ the Heresy. So, basically, you can pretty much have it any size you like.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

HH Collected Visions is very non-canonical for the most part. Ultramarines definitely had the most Marines overall, but the numbers in each company differed from Legion to Legion (note: a pre-heresy company was a different beast to a post-heresy company, it certainly wasn't constrained to 100 marines), the Salamanders only ever had 7 for instance- but imagine how many marines would have been in each company, at least a chapter's worth.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> HH Collected Visions is very non-canonical for the most part.


The Collected Visions project was headed by Alan Merrit, the man responsible for the entire history of the 40k universe. He decides if something is in keeping with the timeline and previous fluff, so it doesn't come any more canonical. And as GW have said, if they publish it, it's canon.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Ferrus Manus 93 said:


> this is true but the death guard also hd 3 great companies, nero is refered to as a line officer as while loken is away on mournival bussines nero was acting captain. hope this helps.


The death guard had Seven great companies, of which the seventh and second were held in greatest esteem.

A line captain was a step between a squad sergeant and company captain they were using a pre-20th century rank scheme, which had less rank titles than modern systems.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Khorne's Fist said:


> A company is roughly a hundred men, and a chapter is around ten companies. Some of the preheresy legions had upwards of one hundred thousand marines, whilst I think it's in HH Collected Visions that the Ultramarines are mentioned as having upwards of a _quarter of a million _ marines before the battle for Macragge.
> 
> Aslo, the SW 13th company is reckoned to have had a thousand or so marines when it disappeared, leading me to believe that the other twelve companies would have something similar. (Which raises the question of their size now, seeing as how they're not exactly fans of the Codex Astartes.)
> 
> The size of any given formation in preHeresy legions would vary greatly from legion to legion, often reflecting the military organisations or tribal societies that the marines were recruited from. They weren't standardised until Guilliman stuck his nose in _after_ the Heresy. So, basically, you can pretty much have it any size you like.


right on. In addition to doctrinal differences there are other factors, look at the Alpha legion, they were the last to be reunited with their primarch, and very likely to have been smaller as a result. The thousand sons were literally that, a thousand strong at the point when they were reunited with Magnus, and regrew slowly up until the heresy. 

A good ballpark figure for the pre-heresy legions is around 100,000 marines( +- 50,000-100,00), with between 75%-100% in scouts auxillia ( they were not part of a legions main fighting force at the time) and other supporting forces.


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

Alright this thread seems to over exaggerate the numbers, if any of you have read the Horus Rising book you could clearly see that when Loken when to the howling hills or whatever where Jubal turns, it clearly states that he had 600 Space Marines, the whole company deployed, thus 600 X 25= 15000 Space Marines. That is a proper number due to the extreme effort put into making one Space Marine. As for the Other Legions we have the Emperor's Children which had 10000 Space Marines as before the Laer Campaign where they had sufferes some 6-700 deaths and 4800 wounded IIRC. Another Legion is the Word Bearers which was clerly stated as having chapters according to the latest Horus Heresy Battle for the Abyss, each of the Chapters are made of 10 companies i.e 1000 Space Marines each, And Kor Phaeron was leading some 6 or 7 chapters to fight the Bloody Ultras. As for the Ultra's no way they will be 250,000 Space Marines I would put it around 25-30,000 Space Marines At Max, Each of the Legions have a Mean number of 12000 Space Marines with a deviation of around 4-5000 Space Marines, mainly the ones who werent affected by the debilitating effects of genetic misfires. Iron Warriors for one may have had around some 16,000 Marines but spread across the Galaxy, thus we can deduct some 6000 Space Marines in rotational Garrison duty so a constant strngth of 10000 Marines were always on the field. Alpha Legion Numbers seems to be heavily shielded they may be a substantial force, I wouldnt put it past 12000 though as they had a lot of time till Alpahrius's discovery. Death Guard must've had around 14000 troops 2000 Space Marines per company. World Eaters as they were a bloody assault oriented Legion like the Blood Angels must've had a number of around 15-16000 Warriors. As for the Other Legions go figure, The legions in Isstvan Massacre the loyalists numbered some 50000 Space Marines on the land, 50000/3, that again give a number around 16000 troops each, this seems a standard for most Legions, so there.

As for the Line Officers, Line means the basic Tactical Space Marines and its officer is basically a 20th century Field Officers who command the footmen to war. Basically Sergeants like nero and Captains who like to get their hands dirty and lead from the front aka Saul. so yea.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Exitus_10 said:


> As for the Ultra's no way they will be 250,000 Space Marines I would put it around 25-30,000 Space Marines At Max,


As I've said already, it's in Collected Visions. Sorry, but I'll take Alan Merrit's opinion ahead of anyone elses. Also, IIRC the 2nd founding Ultramarine successors made up about 60% of all the SM chapters after the Heresy, which would take a lot more than 25,000 marines.


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## Shon (Aug 14, 2008)

IIRC, from my days in the army, a line officer is an officer who will generally have men under his command and will lead them personally into battle. Usually captains and below. A staff officer is usually an officer, commonly major and up, who holds a specific job in the batallion or brigade such as intel officer, supply officer, and so on.

Tarvitz referred to himself as a line officer which does make sense as he was leading his company personally.


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

Khorne's Fist said:


> As I've said already, it's in Collected Visions. Sorry, but I'll take Alan Merrit's opinion ahead of anyone elses. Also, IIRC the 2nd founding Ultramarine successors made up about 60% of all the SM chapters after the Heresy, which would take a lot more than 25,000 marines.


Yea I still find that a bit apprehensive, too much clashing of too many inputs in the fluff as a whole. Either way I dont think they would give each chapters exactly 1000 Space Marines to start with, I would think Guilliman was smarter than to give them 1000 Marines each as smaller battlegroups are much more flexible for Astartes efficiency I would think they started with a fourth or even 100 Marines.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

There is no way UM split into 250 second founding chapters. Isn't the number of ssecond founds provided by the UMs around 19? That means 20k marines survived the HH, which would put them at around 21-25k for pre HH. 

SWs are said to have around 6-7k marines currently, the largest rumored chapter is the Black Templars which has (rumored) 10-12k marines, almost pre heresy numbers.


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

djinn24 said:


> SWs are said to have around 6-7k marines currently, the largest rumored chapter is the Black Templars which has (rumored) 10-12k marines, almost pre heresy numbers.


Gald you have the same view on the ultras.
.... but SW are only 1200 or so Marines strong, each of the Great Companies have 100-120 Space Marines each and the Black Templars are in return 6000 strong although this is obviously disputed. But the fact that SW are no were near 6000 is proven by the Ragnar books, you can clearly see that they say there are only 120 or so Space Marines.


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## itsonlyme (Aug 22, 2008)

Exitus_10 said:


> Alright this thread seems to over exaggerate the numbers, if any of you have read the Horus Rising book you could clearly see that when Loken when to the howling hills or whatever where Jubal turns, it clearly states that he had 600 Space Marines, the whole company deployed, thus 600 X 25= 15000 Space Marines.


Massive problem with your logic here, thing is before the codex astartes was written marine chapters didnt follow these sort of guidelines, infact this was part of the reason it was written, to restrict the power any one man could actually gain with the imperium. Each chapter had its own structure, certainly in the older fluff space marine legions were far larger than 15,000 men, that was the smallest ( i think space wolves were actually the smallest as its the only chapter than only split into two).


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

itsonlyme said:


> Massive problem with your logic here, thing is before the codex astartes was written marine chapters didnt follow these sort of guidelines, infact this was part of the reason it was written, to restrict the power any one man could actually gain with the imperium. Each chapter had its own structure, certainly in the older fluff space marine legions were far larger than 15,000 men, that was the smallest ( i think space wolves were actually the smallest as its the only chapter than only split into two).


I do not understand what you are on about?? I know that chapters didnt get their organizational sytems until after the Codex Astartes. But the thing about eeach company in the Legion having 600 men is completely credible as it is afrom a canon source and the thing about the Chapters of the Word Bearers were also credible sources, thus making your argument a null, please revise the staements before executing them.


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## spike12225 (Aug 21, 2008)

isn't a legion 10.000 marines


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

spike12225 said:


> isn't a legion 10.000 marines


yea around that mabe more.


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## itsonlyme (Aug 22, 2008)

Exitus_10 said:


> I do not understand what you are on about?? I know that chapters didnt get their organizational sytems until after the Codex Astartes. But the thing about eeach company in the Legion having 600 men is completely credible as it is afrom a canon source and the thing about the Chapters of the Word Bearers were also credible sources, thus making your argument a null, please revise the staements before executing them.


firstly dont talk to be about revising a statement before executing, your quote is full of little red lines under the words, anyways, guess you didnt get the point, thats the world bearers, not every chapter was the same  my point was that until the codex astrates was actually written the chapters didnt have guidelines as to how big companies were to be, how many, etc, they decided fr themselves. The thousand sons for example would have have had companies of 600 men otherwise the chapter would have only had like two companies.


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Khorne's Fist said:


> the Ultramarines are mentioned as having upwards of a _quarter of a million _ marines before the battle for Macragge.


It must have been referring to waaaaay before the battle of macragge as that happened only about 300 years ago and that was chapter styled then. It even states that cassius was part of it and he's only 400 years old.....


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Lord Reevan said:


> It must have been referring to waaaaay before the battle of macragge as that happened only about 300 years ago and that was chapter styled then. It even states that cassius was part of it and he's only 400 years old.....


Maybe I should have said the Battle of Calth, when the word Bearers attacked them. But everyone else seemed to get what I was talking about.


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## Farseer Beltiac (Jul 11, 2008)

Khorne's Fist said:


> A company is roughly a hundred men, and a chapter is around ten companies. Some of the preheresy legions had upwards of one hundred thousand marines, whilst I think it's in HH Collected Visions that the Ultramarines are mentioned as having upwards of a _quarter of a million _ marines before the battle for Macragge.



Sweeeeet:biggrin:!!!!! 100,000, so I was kinda righto...maybe......good for fluff and stuff!

That would explain why the Black Legion can come back so many times in Black Crusades.....


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## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Maybe I should have said the Battle of Calth, when the word Bearers attacked them. But everyone else seemed to get what I was talking about.


oops. Totally forgot about that.... Still it's ultra fluff So It's probably going to change again....


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Lord Reevan said:


> oops. Totally forgot about that.... Still it's ultra fluff So It's probably going to change again....


and again, and again, until 40k edition (when it is current events)


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## HexHammer (Sep 8, 2011)

spike12225 said:


> isn't a legion 10.000 marines





Exitus_10 said:


> yea around that mabe more.


You guys must be civilians :grin:

Division = 10.000 - 15.000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_(military)


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

And you do realize this is a fictional universe that does not use the exact same terminology for all of its organizations as we do right?

That, and you brought up a three year old topic and added nothing to it. Your post is kind of walking the line between not funny tongue in cheek and outright rude.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

A "Line Officer" would be an officer that leads a regular unit, nothing special. A "Line Company" in US military terms means a standard rifle company. Not an artillery, tank, support, etc... Just a standard company comprised of HQ platoon, 3 rifle platoons, and possibly a weapons platoon.

As for pre-heresy units, I don't think GW has exactly nailed it down. I would say a good guess is that modern companies are based on those before. However, since Legions were much larger than a Chapter, you'd need larger formations than just a Company. I know that the Space Wolves also had what they called a "Great Company" which was more like an expeditionary strike force comprised of several regular companies (3?).

Here's a good way to think of it. 10 squads = 1 company. 3 companies could comprise a strike force or Great Company. 10 companies = 1 chapter (1000 marines). Several chapters (3?) would make a division. Then, several divisions would make a legion.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Honestly it simply varied from legion to legion. The breakdown of companies was different for each of them, based on aspects of their inherited culture and the way each primarch decided to reorganize his legion.

The Space Wolves legion was comprised of thirteen great companies and that was it. Each of those companies had numbers in the thousands.

The Iron Warriors have grand companies, again made up of thousands of warriors but with likely divisions within those grand companies.

The Word Bearers simply make use of companies, varying from a scant few hundred to several thousand. Where the only thing that determines the size of the company is the dark apostle that leads it.

The Salamanders legion was, and the chapter is, seven companies based on the seven major cities of Noctourne.


Each one was and is different, generally not following the breakdowns our various militaries use today.


Guilliman's codex astartes helped to garner some uniformity in the wake of that. Chapters have a much simpler breakdown, allowing for different chapters to have some common ground; as little as it may be.


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