# how much "freedom" does Games Workshop give Black Library



## Emperorguard500 (May 5, 2010)

on fluff realted stuff...

does GW let black library do its thing, or is there some sort of limited on what the writers can write....

can a black library writer, just like make a story where the emperor is restored back to his physical body, and out of that golden thrown.. could a writer just write that in black library, and publish therefore making it fluff.. or does like every story coming out of BL have to be reviewed and accepted by GW staff etc..


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## Tebok (Apr 25, 2008)

There is is usually a book called a 'Writers Bible' that gives a list of guidelines and rules to fallow. I saw one published for Star Trek novelists. I am not sure of GW has one out. 

If not, Black Library writers just have to use common sense and not kill of main characters, create female space marines, destroy important planets, etc.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

You would think there would be some guidelines and restrictions. Which leads one to wonder just how Goto managed to publish what he did...


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## Nashnir (Apr 3, 2010)

I actually must say that they give too much freedom.
In defense of my opinion, I have to point towards the consistent inconsistency in the fluff made up by the authors. I say this particularly in retrospect to the Heirarchy of beings in the Universe especially on the topic of who can take on/kill/defeat whom.

Edit:
I have learned to live with it somewhat and keep trying to tell myself on topics that I opine to differ on that it is the authors opinion and not a set rule.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

What they do with the battleships and stuff in space takes liberties too in my opinion!

But I'm 99% sure they do have one, it would be amazing if I could get my hands on one......


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## DanCoolins (Sep 10, 2011)

ben counter murdered all the battlefleet gothic fluff on how ships work in battle for the abyss, so if there is a writers bible i imagine it would leave a lot up to common sense (which isnt that common)


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

i loved the bfg cannon 

ships that are 30km long cant land!!!

they also cant bloody take off!!

one cruiser will now win v a battleship EVER!!


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## shadowhawk2008 (Apr 15, 2011)

Nashnir said:


> I actually must say that they give too much freedom.
> In defense of my opinion, I have to point towards the consistent inconsistency in the fluff made up by the authors. I say this particularly in retrospect to the Heirarchy of beings in the Universe especially on the topic of who can take on/kill/defeat whom.
> 
> Edit:
> I have learned to live with it somewhat and keep trying to tell myself on topics that I opine to differ on that it is the authors opinion and not a set rule.


Really? And we are talking about the same people who let Mat Ward write the Grey Knights codex and scatter "blood" references all over the Blood Angels codex? Or who said that the Blood Swords are not a Blood Angels successor chapter when James Swallow's Red Fury has their chapter master attend a conclave of all the sons of Sanguinius and later also die defending the relics of the Primarch? Really?

As to how much freedom is given. It all comes down to common sense. But sometimes it turns out that because of the way a plot needs working, some elements of Codex lore are ignored. The reverse is also true.

Also keep in mind that Codex/Rulebook lore is very, very general as a rule. They can't have all the details about everything in there. Which is where the writers come in and expand upon it or make something new. 

Lore also changes all the time. I mean, look at what happened with the Draenei in WoW. Chris Metzen admitted it was his own screwup and he is the loremaster at Blizzard 

By the way, how did Ben Counter negate the BFG lore?


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## Nashnir (Apr 3, 2010)

shadowhawk2008 said:


> Really? And we are talking about the same people who let Mat Ward write the Grey Knights codex and scatter "blood" references all over the Blood Angels codex? Or who said that the Blood Swords are not a Blood Angels successor chapter when James Swallow's Red Fury has their chapter master attend a conclave of all the sons of Sanguinius and later also die defending the relics of the Primarch? Really?
> 
> As to how much freedom is given. It all comes down to common sense. But sometimes it turns out that because of the way a plot needs working, some elements of Codex lore are ignored. The reverse is also true.
> 
> ...


I was firstly answering to the question asked by OP and I did say somewhere in my post to indicate they were just my opinions. Well, I really can't comment on codices since I haven't read them or plan to. So next time take a chill pill or answer in general and don't quote.


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## DanCoolins (Sep 10, 2011)

the furious abyss proportions make it impossible for it too work under bfg fluff, 
and all the ships act far too quickly. yes i know its meant to be a super ship, but it is far too super to work in the established fluff. 
oh and if you have read it then the way it is finished should have made you cringe.


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## shadowhawk2008 (Apr 15, 2011)

Dan said:


> the furious abyss proportions make it impossible for it too work under bfg fluff,
> and all the ships act far too quickly. yes i know its meant to be a super ship, but it is far too super to work in the established fluff.
> oh and if you have read it then the way it is finished should have made you cringe.


The Furious Abyss is a very singular ship made for a very singular purpose. It also cannot contradict BFG lore since BFG lore is made for the post-Heresy Imperium. 

The ending didn't make me cringe. It was the bland rendition of Bryntooth and Cestus that made me cringe. The void war scenes in TBftA are some of the best in the BL lore, imo.


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## DanCoolins (Sep 10, 2011)

they are very good void battles, but, as i mentioned BFG deals with those same ships,
infact almost the entire chaos list is made from ships that were seen prior to or during the heresy,

i agree with you on the point about the characters....
although Mhotep ftw


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

RE: the Chaos list... no, they're not. In fact, it's mostly the opposite.

From Battlefleet Gothic:
- The Despoiler class battleships were developed as part of the Gareox Prerogative in the mid-36th millennium.
- Repulsive class grand cruisers originated in the 34th millennium.
- Styx class heavy cruisers were first used during the 32nd and 33rd millennia.
- Murder class cruisers were first in the 33rd millennium.
- The first named Slaughter class cruiser originates in the 34th millennium.
- Idolator class raiders were only developed after the Heresy.
- Infidel class raiders were developed late in the 40th millennium.

In fact, only the Desolator class battleship is stated as originating to the earliest days of the Imperium. The rest are given no firm date. Given the fact that the majority of Chaos-specific vessels seem to come from entire classes that fall prey to the Ruinous Powers, I'd argue most of them are post-Heresy designs as well.


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

Strangely this question was brought up at an authors seminar at this years games day. The general bottom line is that GW don't keep particularly close ties on BL, although some authors (James Swallow) would like there to be (he in fact cited the difficulty in organising his Blood Angels novels since the new codex). Goto, Zou and even Abnett were mentioned for various contradictory material.


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## shadowhawk2008 (Apr 15, 2011)

Indeed. The biggest problem are the Blood Swords who have been rolled in together with the Blood Ravens as a chapter of dubious origin, when Red Fury directly contradicts that.


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## Lubacca (Sep 4, 2011)

See that's a scary thought for someone coming into the 40k fluff, to know that you might be given one explination for something and then later on read a completely different explination for the same thing. 

The best part of 40k, for me, is honestly the fluff (currently) and if the bottom line is that there is no standard code for what gets printed and turned into 'a creditable source' well then something's broken


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## DanCoolins (Sep 10, 2011)

thanks phoebus, i stand corrected, although i still think the furious abyss is a little *too* super
but thats off topic so yeah : 3


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## Harriticus (Nov 10, 2010)

There's clearly some kind of guideline and rules GW outlines for BL authors, else these lines would have been crossed long ago as a book about the Emperor being resurrected would be a tempting piece and immediately become the most popular book.

From the common traits I've seen in every BL book I've read/heard of it seems GW demands that the the book not disturb the greater 40k status quo. The Imperium will still exist as it exists in the current edition of the rulebook, all the playable armies will continue to exist, Chaos and the Warp remain how they are, major figures such as Abaddon will remain alive, etc.

It seems sometimes BL books can shake things up though. Recently the Path of the Warrior series has dealt with an Imperial invasion of Alaitoc, an invasion that has deeply penetrated the Craftworld and caused substantial damage at that. This is something that would be pretty huge in any Eldar codex given the significance of the Tyranid attack on Iyanden. This comes off to me as the limit that BL books can disturb the overall status quo though, and it's clear Alaitoc won't even be destroyed. 

It will be interesting to see if a future Eldar codex deals with the Imperial attack on Alaitoc though, for the sake of seeing just how "canon" BL material is.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Dan, no worries and you're welcome! 

Regarding creative license, I honestly don't think GW or BL should be accused of doing something unusual when it comes to IP.

Take George Lucas, for instance, and the Star Wars IP. For years, Lucas would occasionally go on record and remind folks that "canon" Star Wars was what HE put out - period. Dark Horse put out comics, Bioware put out video games, various publishers put out books, action figures, etc., and in general a whole slew of companies released various products. None of this bothered Lucas as long as he got his percentage and said products weren't harming his IP (which is why we never saw any authorized Princess Leia metal bikini pictorials and such).

Was there consistency with (or even relevance to, in some cases) the actual "canon" product? No, hardly.

Were any of those products ever reconciled with the prequels? Not at all. Remember when "Attack of the Clones" was in development and all various Sci-Fi blogs, magazines, shows, etc., were talking about Mandalorian warriors (a concept begun in the novels and continued in Bioware's games)? Then the movie came out and, once more, there was zero tie-in between a non-Lucas concept and the actual "canon".

And that basically extends to the entire pre-Episode I timeline as well. The only real saving grace any of the non-"canon" products have is that the latest ones benefit from coming AFTER the movies and can thus appropriate "canon" elements for their own non-"canon" products. E.g., "The Old Republic".

By contrast, BL and GW are doing just great (IMHO). We hammer them for some minute inconsistencies and lament the likes of Goto, but on the main there seems to be a real effort by the BL authors to be true to the material GW has made canon. Dan Abnett (see the Space Marines with boarding armor and shields from FW in "Salvation's Reach"), Ben Counter (see new concepts of Blood Angels in "Phalanx"), and Aaron Dembski-Bowden (see his various blogs on this topic*) for instance put a lot of work in to ensure continuity with GW concepts and themes. And, far more often than not, they seem to be doing the right thing.

And, hey, let's be real here. It's not like GW themselves get it right or consistent every time. I've seen enough threads where the lamenting of various Codices and the fluff they present is the main topic, for instance. Or, how about the various concepts that make no sense but are adopted in the name of game balance? Fancy your Blood Angels Captain in Artificer Power Armour, for instance? So sorry, _they were all taken by the Sanguinary Guard._

I don't know what happened with the Blood Swords, but I find it very telling that they weren't simply omitted from the Codex but _disqualified_ from being legitimate heirs to the Blood Angels. Has anyone actually asked James Swallow if he received any communication from GW about this?

* I mean, my God, at one point he described on his blog how he has pages upon pages of information - from notes to photocopies of Index Astartes articles - pasted on his walls in his office, in order to better maintain an accurate idea of what he's writing about.

Cheers,
P.


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

Phoebus said:


> By contrast, BL and GW are doing just great (IMHO). We hammer them for some minute inconsistencies and lament the likes of Goto, but on the main there seems to be a real effort by the BL authors to be true to the material GW has made canon. Dan Abnett (see the Space Marines with boarding armor and shields from FW in "Salvation's Reach"), Ben Counter (see new concepts of Blood Angels in "Phalanx"), and Aaron Dembski-Bowden (see his various blogs on this topic*) for instance put a lot of work in to ensure continuity with GW concepts and themes. And, far more often than not, they seem to be doing the right thing.


Following on from Phoebus' point, I think we have to respect the effort the writers put in. The BL has published some fantastic novels, and these guys are genuine W40K or WH fans; you're not going to see some nobody writing for these guys just earn a buck. 

Sometimes, the lore may - just may - contradict. But my view is this is a galaxy-wide, 10,000 year history we are mining for stories. And hey, so what if some of the fluff contradicts, so long as it doesn't directly cause problems (e.g. one story character X dies, another X lives) then it just adds to the mystery and character of the universe. To illustrate my point, how many different versions are there of great myths? Jason the the Argonaughts, the minotaur etc... - but the main point is they all follow the same general idea, and the whole mythology around them is better because of the different versions. In my opinon, it makes it that much more rich to discover and enjoy.

I dont think BL often has contradicting fluff, this is just for the rare times it does. I feel that the vast majority of the works published are fantastic, and wouldn't have them any other way. However much freedom the writers are given is just the right amount for me. It works, and it works well.


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## shadowhawk2008 (Apr 15, 2011)

I just finished reading Hammer & Anvil recently. Here's some really interesting tidbits.



Jim mentions Imotekh of the Sautekh dynasty, the Deathmark, the Lychguard, the Doomsday Ark, the Triarch Praetorians, etc. These are all the units that are rumoured to be in the new codex as per the newly revealed pics from Wayland Games.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

If Goto can write about multilasers on Land Raiders and Carnifexes, they can't be too lenient.


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## shadowhawk2008 (Apr 15, 2011)

Alsojames said:


> If Goto can write about multilasers on Land Raiders and Carnifexes, they can't be too lenient.


The only multilaser mention in _Warrior Brood_, as far as I recall, is as a heavy weapon used by one of the Mantis Warrior Devastators.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Harriticus said:


> It will be interesting to see if a future Eldar codex deals with the Imperial attack on Alaitoc though, for the sake of seeing just how "canon" BL material is.


I can tell you exactly how canon it is.

It's canon. Forge World is canon. The design studio (what this thread erroneously calls "GW") is canon. Black Library is canon. They're all GW. Things have changed from 5-10 years ago.

Some things may contradict other things. Good news! That's all canon too. 

This is how it works: http://www.boomtron.com/2011/03/grimdark-ii-loose-canon/


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Can you tell us how some things get the official BL stamp of approval?

Like Goto's multi-laser debacle, Ben Counter's Grey Knights getting pummeled by Sisters of Battle, the Draigo debate, the Necrons becoming space samurai, etc.?

Does the editor in chief/CEO sit down with these guys and nod his head without really listening to what these authors are saying in regards to what they'd like to do to the franchise?

I don't think people would have an issue with new things being deemed cannon but rather whether or not these new additions conflict with established lore. People can ignore/forgive minor things like how Power-Armor works, looks, etc. but not something as major as what Astartes use on the battlefield or how ordinary women can take out daemon slayers created by the Emperor.


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## General-jwj (Sep 22, 2011)

I'd love to hear more about this Goto fellow, he seems to have written hilariously erronated things in his books.


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## shadowhawk2008 (Apr 15, 2011)

1. The multi-laser thing. I really don't see why people have trouble accepting it. Is it because the codex says that Space Marines cannot use multi-lasers? They Mantis Warriors are a fairly old chapter. It's not beyond reason to assume that they haven't picked up some weapons over the millennia that are outside the remit of the Codex.

2. Grey Knights v/s Sisters of Battle. The former are not omnipotent a force as people may assume. And the Sisters are not ordinary women. They have an extreme level of faith in the Emperor. They are extremely religious. They do go to war in Rhino-equivalents and wear power armour and quite a potent armoury of weapons. Does it bear mentioning that the Sisters in question were well-prepared for an invasion? That Ghalic Ren-sar Valinov had turned an entire planet against the Grey Knights by telling the uneducated leaders that they were in fact traitors/renegades?

3. Draigo is outside of BL control. That is a GW thing.

4. When did Necrons become space samurai?


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