# Does the Emperor protect?



## Iron Within (Mar 15, 2008)

If this has been discussed before, I'm sorry, just ignore or lock or whatever.

Anyway, there is something I have never quite understood, is all this religion surrounding the Emperor useless? Does he actually protect, is he really a sort of deity, or is the Imperium just full of it? I've never really understood if he is a sort of god or not. Forgive me if the answer is really obvious and I'm not seeing it, and feel free to call be an idiot if it is an obvious answer, this is just an item of 40k fluff I've never really understood.


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

IMHO I think that they say that like we say "God help me" or ask whatever deity we wish to worship and ask for guidance and salvation and safety in general. They may believe that if they are saved from a particular instance that they were saved by the emperor like we would say we were saved by God. The Imperium, on the whole, view the Emperor as a god or god-like figure.


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## Crimson_fists (Oct 19, 2008)

Ordo Xeno Commander said:


> The Imperium, on the whole, view the Emperor as a god or god-like figure.


I, worship the Emperor as a god-like figure!

Seriously, people are always looking for an answer to a question that has no answer. They'll take any excuse to explain something supernatural or weird, and the Emperor as a god seems as good as any. 

(If this dosn't make sense, destroy my post)


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## Underground Heretic (Aug 9, 2008)

In game, yes he does. The Sisters of Battle have Acts of Faith that they can test for and use to bolster themselves. Fluff-wise these are prayers to the Emperor. In game one of them, Spirit of the Martyr, gives the unit an invulnerable save equal to its armor save. So, I guess the emperor protects zealots in form fitting power armor but doesn't care about anyone else.


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## wilsonjc82 (Aug 5, 2008)

in one of the early HH books, 

One of the characters uses psychic powers to defeat a beastie, however it is unclear if they are protected by the emporer or just a psychic beastie killing machine.

John


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## Degzi (Nov 10, 2008)

i suppose its just a comparison to real life in that sense sort of in the same notion of 'is there really a god' the only difference is that the emperor is an actual person. but if u think of it in historys sense how many times has a story been told and passed down so that the story changes and distorts over time. i dont know how clear it is but just a few things to think about.


sorry guys if u dont agree with my thoughts here


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## Deneris (Jul 23, 2008)

On some level, I believe the Emperor DOES protect, but with billions of humans in the galaxy, his protection is spread QUITE thinly. Only if the need is truly great will the emperor interceed, and that might be to only deflect a bullet (6+ invuln save that some armies get)...

As for the Sisters, I believe it's a mix of a tiny bit of the Emperor's power and a BIG helping of their own faith/psychic abilities. Otherwise, why not call them "Emperor Points" instead of Faith Points? :wink:


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## shadowscout13 (Oct 8, 2008)

I think that over time he became a god through people worsippg him. I mean he was the most powerful human in history and he defeated horus. So you could say that they latched onto him because they needed something to believe in after all that happened.


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## Lupercal's Chosen (May 8, 2008)

The emperor is in fact a star god so in a way yes dependent if you feel that the star gods are actually gods or if you feel they are just another xenos form. GW have been talking about bringing the emperor back in full star god form which would be intresting. In terms of protection mosy units which have the "emperors protection" are either really zealous i.e the sisters of battle whose faith can literally deflect bullets lol or physkers who just use physchic powers! 

War is simply the galaxys hygene>>

Fulgrim wears make-up. Roboute Drinks wine. Jagahti runs Tut tut what pansys!!!


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## when in doubt shoot! (Oct 19, 2008)

Yes. Defnitely. (IMO ) even if he doesn't protect himself, the amount of faith in him that has given men and women courage to fight on is tremendous, even if he doesn't actually protect people, as such, but if there is someone you can have faith in, a reason for hope, it's definitely an advantage.


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## Iron Within (Mar 15, 2008)

OK, thanks. As I said I've never understood if the the Emperor is a god or whatever, or if the Imperium is just diluting itself, and the Emperor is actually GW poking fun at religion. I forgot about the Sisters of Battle's faith points, so I guess that is really my answer.


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## Vashtek (Nov 2, 2007)

Isn't the main point of the Emporer (fluffwise) the psychic beacon he projects that allows astropaths to guide spaceships through the warp?

If this was lost, then Man would lose interstellar space travel. So yeah, the emporer does protect and the Imperium is dependent on him (or Him).


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

Man wouldn't lose interstellar space travel, that is given to them via technology, but if the Astropath were to go out, the Imperium would just lose it's way of navigating through the warp and so on and thus space travel would become incredibly dangerous. The Astropath is not the Emperor's main purpose, just one of his many functions.


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## Huffy (Nov 25, 2008)

since its warhammer 40k, people's belief in min as a god, could also give him the powers of a god,


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## Lord of Rebirth (Jun 7, 2008)

It may be irrelevant but I'd say the Emperor is -not- a god so it is unreasonable/irrational for him to have such a god-like power though if you think about him as an inspirational figure and his inspiration being a beneficial factor then you could say he inspires people to better defent themselves which could in a round about way be him protecting?


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## Ardias26 (Sep 26, 2008)

remember that in the fluff thoughts and beleifs manifest in the warp and take form, perhaps over 10 millenia somthing similar has happened, ie that sentinents 'create' their own gods within the warp similar to how the chaos powers came about


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

again, I relate it to reality. People assume God is all powerful, but that's only because they worship him as a deity. Often, people will imbue their chosen deity with certain abilities to make them seem even more worthy of such a position. The Emperor is in no way a god at all, he is just viewed as a deity by the society over which he rules.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Personally I believe there are two entities; The Emperor and the God-Emperor.

The Emperor is the physical remains of the great warlord who conquered the galaxy, and by his sheer force of will and psychic might is powering the Astronomican and keeping the Imperial Webway gate sealed.

The God-Emperor on the other hand is a god. A warp entity formed by the untold trillions of humans who worship it. It is a ruthless and tyrannical god, and is so because that is the environment from which it was born. The Ecclesiarchy dictate and regulate the Imperial Cult and thus the worship of Trillions across the galaxy, thus the God-Emperor acts just how the Ecclesiarchy wants it to act. It is this entity, the God-Emperor, who 'rewards' and 'protects' some of its followers via divine intervention, (the Imperial Saints for example), not the smouldering corpse upon the Golden Throne.

The two may or may not be linked...

Thats just my thoughts anyway


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## Ardias26 (Sep 26, 2008)

in fluff terms the emperor is basically an alpha plus psyker an my take is that combined with the astromnomicon he is able to extend a portion psychic capability within its range, basically creating a 'pool' in which humans are able to tap into occasionally ie the 'miricles' and 'saints', it would be interesting to see if the sisters of battle were able to use thier 'acts of faith' outside the astronomicons range.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

In fluff, he does protect. In the Gaunt's Ghosts novels, especially the Saint series, Gaunt seems to be guided by a higher power. There are several other novels where, while not stated out right, it is hinted that the Emperor has taken a hand and protected his faithful.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Underground Heretic said:


> In game, yes he does. The Sisters of Battle have Acts of Faith that they can test for and use to bolster themselves. Fluff-wise these are prayers to the Emperor. In game one of them, Spirit of the Martyr, gives the unit an invulnerable save equal to its armor save. So, I guess the emperor protects zealots *with tits* in form fitting power armor but doesn't care about anyone else.


Fixed it for ya. :grin:

Seriously, I'm not kidding, you have to be some ultra-badass guy like Gaunt to attract the attention of the Emperor as a male. Hell, even his sons, the Space Marines can't even light a cigarette with their faith, and then there you have some crazy nuns with guns who can _summon a shield of WTF that protects them even from the Demolisher Cannons of DOOM._ And I don't remember him minding the existence of the Brides of the Emperor either...


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Why is their being women a factor, apart from the terms of the _Decree Passive_? The *vast* majority of Space Marines, his "sons", don't regard him as a god, but instead, the greatest man who ever lived. The unfaithful are hardly likely to receive the blessings of faith, are they? And those that do, such as the Black Templars, get their rewards - visions from the Emperor marking out Emperor's Champions, and (in the Armageddon codex, though I don't know about Codex: BT) the ability to get a 6+ ward save instead of a cover save, and so on.

In contrast to the Astartes, the direct representatives of the Ecclesiarchy - yes, it's understandable that these get those blessings, isn't it? It is the Emperor's fault that the soldiers under arms most devoted to him religiously are forbidden from being "men under arms"?

Faith, in 40k, manifests its own rewards. The only thing that changes with different super-powerful warp deities is the type thereof.


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## Durzod (Nov 24, 2009)

I know this'll be seen as heresy, but what better place? Looking back over the history of the game as well as some of the 40k novels I've come to the conclusion that the Emperor is a Chaos god. Just as Slaanesh was created by the combined decadence of the Eldar, the Emperor has been awakemed to godhood by millenia of human worship and devotion. 
In game terms, early incanations of the Chaos army lists required players to field squads in their god's sacred number:
Slaanesh: 6
Nurgle: 7
Khorne: 8
Tzeentch: 9
IG/SM: 10
Coinicidence? I think not!


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Of course it isn't!

Though I prefer the theory that His number is 5. It's a count-down, see, with Slaanesh being 6, and the Star Child, the God of Order, to be 5. After all, a fist has 5 fingers...and you OBEY the fist. Who, then, will eventually be 4?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> the God of Order


Can I ask your reasoning behind why he would be a God of Order?


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

I've been believing the same thing about him that's he just a Chaos God on the rise. I mean there were the early stories of the 12 powerful shamans who became The Emperor, but once he was broken during the fight with Horus and placed in the Golden Throne they said he part of the Immaterium also. I mean he's only reason the beacon works that allows ships to travel over large areas of space. So he has to exist. I think like with the Eldar one day he's going to have a birthcry, Terra is going to get swallowed and thus will begin the reign of the Emperor/God/whatever.


Also I agree what's the nuns getting all the love. I mean what about the Inquisitors? Hell even Commissars? Ok maybe these two are more faithful to power and dishing out pain, but still.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Per Saint Sabbat, she received strength and speed beyond human capability from the Old Man. 

Though I guess this reinforces Empy likes Tits theory.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

edit: double-post. Oops.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Counting Imperial Saints in the most complete list that I could find (on Lexicanum), male saints predominate heavily. There were 13 male saints and 10 females - including the 6 Sisters of Battle founders, who were sort of a lumped-in group and didn't crop up at random like the rest - and 22 more unlabeled (which I hazard at a 12/10 split, in male favor). As a whole, then, given the available resources, I am inclined to believe that the Emperor doesn't care which gender he picks as the instrument of His will. And also, who was the most famous of all saints? The one that made Sabbat look like a backwater girl in a dimly lit corner of the galaxy? Ah yes, Sebastian Thor.

Child: It's just a theory that I was impressed enough with the first time that I saw, that I was convinced. I'm trying to find the document somewhere around the web and to get permission to post it from the original author, but it looks like it was (possibly) almost entirely lost when the BL forums went down.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

@Mossy Toes

Where are you getting those numbers from? And why so serious? :grin: But I just can't resist arguing... again... :laugh:

So you see, my problem is that crazy nuns with guns get buffs, while valiant knights of the Imperium who kept the whole race running in the past ten thousand years (AKA Space Marines) get nothing, purely based on their concept that the Emperor is not a god but 40K's Chuck Norris. The problem with this is if the Emperor gave a damn about his sons, he'd at the very least send them a mail, saying "HEY GUYZ I BECAME A GAWD!!! ITS OKAY TO WORSHIP ME!!!", again at the very least. 

If the Space Marines knew he became a god, they'd worship him, but he keeps that a secret because then everyone would actually take him serious and he would have to compete with the Chaos Gods on the Religion Market much more openly. He'd have to provide a feasible explanation why is he providing everyone all the carnage, hope and education, death, and sex they want. Wouldn't look awkward, not at all. "Worship me, I'm a cooler god of war than that barbarian Khorne, I prefer if you lived!", "I'm a better god of hope and knowledge because I don't turn your face into an ass (or worse) just for the hell of it!", "If you want death and decay then I'm your man! I've been rotting in the past ten thousand years and I'm also probably the cause of 50%+ of the destruction and misery thats going on in the galaxy!", and "If you think that Slaanesh is just way too creepy, come and pay a visit to my girls! Way better and they don't have anything unexpected under their loincloth (as opposed to Daemonettes)."

Long story short: Emps loves tits, just like hailene said (I loled hard there, dude), and the existence of the Sisters of Battle only proves this point. The rest was just joke. :laugh: Or maybe not...


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Lexicanum, as I said previously - though it might not be the most accurate and complete source, it was handy and served the purpose well enough to display a point.

And trust me - I'm not getting offended or raeging. The internet just doesn't lend itself well to inflection. :wink:



Khorothis said:


> @Mossy Toes
> So you see, my problem is that crazy nuns with guns get buffs, while valiant knights of the Imperium who kept the whole race running in the past ten thousand years (AKA Space Marines) get nothing, purely based on their concept that the Emperor is not a god but 40K's Chuck Norris. The problem with this is if the Emperor gave a damn about his sons, he'd at the very least send them a mail, saying "HEY GUYZ I BECAME A GAWD!!! ITS OKAY TO WORSHIP ME!!!", again at the very least.


I think that he was too busy nursing his boo-boos from Horus to send out a memo for a while there. By now, though, I think it's more the fact that the Space Marines are too set in their ways and busy mumbling, "when I was your age..." to all the stripling young organizations that are barely six millenia old. There's nothing stopping them from partyin' like a Saint (gettin' quaint, snortin' paint 'til they're feelin' faint) (shoot me before I try that again)...besides the threat of having to cede much of their individuality and independence to the Ecclesiarchy to be officially recognized.



Khorothis said:


> "If you think that Slaanesh is just way too creepy, come and pay a visit to my girls! Way better..."


QFT.

Q. F. F. T. :good:

(I also laughed at the Nurgy bit)

You may just be saying that the Big E is a womanizing pimp - but I'm more under the impression that he'd accept the Space Marines under his umbrella of protection against that aweful warp-rain if they'd just cross the street and plop themselves down beneath it.

But...boys will be boys, and get soaking wet.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

This thread just got really funny.


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## Snowy (Jul 11, 2009)

I would say he's a demi-god.

In Egyptian Mythology a Demi-god is like a Pharoh whose being gifted life of in between immortality and mortal life, so like he's super powerful, maybe enough to challenge one or two Chaos Gods but if like two or more ganged up on him he'd get owned (Anyone for fried Emperor)

Oh, and of course he protects the Nuns, what the hell they're NUN'S, but they do have guns, and very shapely power armour.


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## Durzod (Nov 24, 2009)

Space Marines get nothing drom The Emperor on the tabletop? I huess an auto-tally with no need to test against leadership or unit soze is nothing.
As I recall with what's left of my memory the SMs don't worship the Emp because some of the eldest (granted mostly encased in Dreads) remember fighting for him pre-Throne.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> Child: It's just a theory that I was impressed enough with the first time that I saw, that I was convinced. I'm trying to find the document somewhere around the web and to get permission to post it from the original author, but it looks like it was (possibly) almost entirely lost when the BL forums went down.


I wasn't so much questioning the theory, rather just the idea that he would be a god of 'order'?

I think there's still a good case for the Emperor not being a god of 'Order', but a god of 'Obedience and Ignorance'. Ignorance as a virture, blind obedience, dedication to duty no matter what...this is almost the definition of the loyal Astartes, the Arbites, the Ministorum, the Custodians.

Worshipping the Emperor isn't about love or devotion; it's about doing as you're told and not questioning it.

That, as a core 'concept', is very distinct from the Chaos Gods, but it's not exactly order, 'O'rder, perhaps, but order vs chaos...nah. It's all still chaos.

It also begs the question is order as a concept even possible in the warp?

By my personal theory is that the God-Emperor (a seperate entity to the Emperor) has been created in the warp by 10,000 years of being worshipped by Trillions. This worship is dictated by the Ecclesiarchy, so the God-Emperor is an entity which is exactly how the Ecclesiarchy percieve the real Emperor and worship him. In this sense the God-Emperor is another warp entity, a bleak and terrible god that represents Obedience and Ignorance, and does exactly what the Ecclesiarchy (unconsciously) tells it to do. In my view the God-Emperor is a warp entity and thus born of Chaos, and cannot resemble Order.


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## Bloody Mary (Nov 6, 2009)

I always thought that if God-Emperor were to become/was a god, he's be the Chaos God of fear and faith. The Eldar created Slaanesh by indulging themselves way too much and Slaanesh's field is excess. What do humans do? They fear (aliens, mutants, heretics, the Inquisition, etc., etc.) and they have faith in the Emperor that he will protect them.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> I think that he was too busy nursing his boo-boos from Horus to send out a memo for a while there. By now, though, I think it's more the fact that the Space Marines are too set in their ways and busy mumbling, "when I was your age..." to all the stripling young organizations that are barely six millenia old. There's nothing stopping them from partyin' like a Saint (gettin' quaint, snortin' paint 'til they're feelin' faint) (shoot me before I try that again)...besides the threat of having to cede much of their individuality and independence to the Ecclesiarchy to be officially recognized.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:



Mossy Toes said:


> You may just be saying that the Big E is a womanizing pimp - but I'm more under the impression that he'd accept the Space Marines under his umbrella of protection against that aweful warp-rain if they'd just cross the street and plop themselves down beneath it.
> 
> But...boys will be boys, and get soaking wet.


I'm sorry but I still think that Emps really should have sent a memo or something to his kids. 

Believe me, they'd get wet under the umbrella too. :grin: I'd elaborate but we have kids here. :grin:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I wasn't so much questioning the theory, rather just the idea that he would be a god of 'order'?
> 
> I think there's still a good case for the Emperor not being a god of 'Order', but a god of 'Obedience and Ignorance'. Ignorance as a virture, blind obedience, dedication to duty no matter what...this is almost the definition of the loyal Astartes, the Arbites, the Ministorum, the Custodians.
> 
> ...


Very good thought you have there. Intriguing. This could potentially lead to a harsh division in the Imperium. Just imagine, Emperor+Space Marines vs. God-Emperor+Ordo Hereticus+Ecclesiarchy, with Imperial Guard forces on both sides and probably the Ordo Malleus and Ordo Xenos would be divided too, or maybe they'd pick a side. But then Emps would have to pull himself together rather literally and start doing it right after more than ten thousand years of doing it WRONG, and yes, in capital letters


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Khorothis said:


> Very good thought you have there. Intriguing. This could potentially lead to a harsh division in the Imperium. Just imagine, Emperor+Space Marines vs. God-Emperor+Ordo Hereticus+Ecclesiarchy, with Imperial Guard forces on both sides and probably the Ordo Malleus and Ordo Xenos would be divided too, or maybe they'd pick a side. But then Emps would have to pull himself together rather literally and start doing it right after more than ten thousand years of doing it WRONG, and yes, in capital letters


The Point is though is the Ecclesiarchy would not be unaware of the entity; the God-Emperor. They think it is just the Emperor, but where as according to my theory it is actually the God-Emperor, a different entity completley. 

The Ecclesiarchy (and therefore most of humanity) are worshipping one entity (the Emperor), but their prayers are being answered by another entity (The God-Emperor). Going by this theory the divine interventions which seem to occur are mostly orchestrated by the God-Emperor, not the Emperor.

Its even possible that both entities, the Emperor (the corpse of the great warlord who conquered the galaxy) and the God-Emperor (The warp entity created in the warp by the power of worship of trillions of humans across millenia) are linked somehow, maybe the Emperor has somehow connected to the God-Emperor in an attempt to become more powerful and save humanity... hmm... 

Just my thoughts anyway.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> *True and valid points.*


Effectively what you've just explained, being too lazy to recap it myself, and even too lazy to post it up originally, I suppose. Order is, indeed, a gross simplification, and not even one that cuts close to the truth, at that. It was a handy term, and you have sufficiently slapped the well-deserving me for using it. :wink:

To quote the document I'm searching for (most of the rest of): "Where [the Chaos Gods] spread chaos, He spread oppression. Where their daemons were feral nightmares that rended souls, His daemons were faceless automata, enslaving the souls of humans into servitude. Star Father daemon worlds sprung up in the eye and across the galaxy in the closing thousand years of this dark age [this being Warhammer 50k]. They were balls of featureless gold, with golden, faceless daemons and billions of mindless, empty humans. The inhabitants of these worlds shuffled across the surface for no particular reason until they simply died of starvation, or fatigue."


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

@Child-of-the-Emperor

I thought that the moment the God-Emperor was born, the Emperor would come back to life and look awesome again (Lich-Emperor? No thanks) for some reason. Maybe the reason why he was so passive in the past ten thousand years was that he was trying to keep the God-Emperor from being born. Or maybe the inner shaman suddenly had a dispute and couldn't come to an agreement, and thus the two different Emperors were born.

Or it could be that the Emperor would act as an avatar of the God-Emperor, much like the Avatar of Khaine. They are one, but act as two.

@Mossy Toes

Wheres that from? Its awfully familiar... O_O


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

The Emperor does not protect, every time somebody in 40k says the Emperor protects due to something that appears miraculous occurring its easily explainable how it actually happened, or just dumb luck. The Emperor himself admitted he was not a god and yet the frightened masses worship him as one just because he was saved on the brink of death by technology.

One of the reasons I like Ciaphas Cain is that while he prays to the Emperor he knows that he isn't going to get any help from him. "I muttered a prayer to the Emperor, confident he was not listening"

Plus the Emperor himself is quite evil from a view, he authorized the harsh actions of the Night Lords during the Great Crusade to maintain order within the Imperium and then cast Konrad Curze aside and blamed him for all the actions, he also turned Magnus away and send the Wolves to wreck his homeworld and all Magnus was trying to do was save everyone from Horus. He also abducted Angron against his will and made him take up the role of Primarch and all Angron could do was watch the men he had fought with for years be slaughtered. Plus when Lorgar spread the Lectitio Divinitatus around the galaxy the Emperor, rather then explaining to him why he shouldn't do that, shot Lorgar down and told him that his beliefs were wrong, which they were but he deserved a kinder way of being told, and he was foolish. Plus now the Emperor's inquisition, which he ordered to be founded, slaughters millions in the name of the Emperor for little more than minor infractions, even sometimes just because they can.


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## Gold170492 (Feb 12, 2008)

Someone may of said this already but I've heard that he does protect people by doing something in the warp. Does'nt ne help power the beakon thing and he stops a lot of **** getting in from the warp


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> The Emperor does not protect, every time somebody in 40k says the Emperor protects due to something that appears miraculous occurring its easily explainable how it actually happened, or just dumb luck. The Emperor himself admitted he was not a god and yet the frightened masses worship him as one just because he was saved on the brink of death by technology.
> 
> One of the reasons I like Ciaphas Cain is that while he prays to the Emperor he knows that he isn't going to get any help from him. "I muttered a prayer to the Emperor, confident he was not listening"


The Emperor being labelled as a 'god' or not doesn't infringe his ability to protect people. He is the most powerful Psyker the galaxy has ever known, his powers and abilities will inevitably be described as 'divine' through ignorance.



Lord of the Night said:


> Plus the Emperor himself is quite evil from a view, he authorized the harsh actions of the Night Lords during the Great Crusade to maintain order within the Imperium and then cast Konrad Curze aside and blamed him for all the actions, he also turned Magnus away and send the Wolves to wreck his homeworld and all Magnus was trying to do was save everyone from Horus. He also abducted Angron against his will and made him take up the role of Primarch and all Angron could do was watch the men he had fought with for years be slaughtered. Plus when Lorgar spread the Lectitio Divinitatus around the galaxy the Emperor, rather then explaining to him why he shouldn't do that, shot Lorgar down and told him that his beliefs were wrong, which they were but he deserved a kinder way of being told, and he was foolish. Plus now the Emperor's inquisition, which he ordered to be founded, slaughters millions in the name of the Emperor for little more than minor infractions, even sometimes just because they can.


Yes the Emperor could have done particular things in a different way. This in no way warrants him being called evil. He was doing what he was doing because he believed it was the best course of action for Humanity. It is likely that if the Emperor didn't forge the Imperium that Humanity would now be extinct (or close enough to it). 

I see his actions as a last, desperate resort. His ultimate goal was to free humanity from the grasp of Chaos. 

The Great Crusade was a last ditch attempt to do just that. By uniting all of humanity under his Iron Rule and spreading the Imperial Truth he was starving Chaos of worship (unconscious or otherwise). By smashing aside all Alien races he was also starving Chaos of emotions and worship. This was the aim of the Great Crusade. He couldn't afford to take his time about such things and wait to 'mollycoddle' the Primarchs.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

_The Shape of the Nightmare to Come_, a 50k projection, by LordLucan, a forumite of various fora around the web.

(another idea of Lucan's - and one which, obliquely, supports the "Two Emperors" theory - was that Malcador the Sigilite was the true Emperor and that the big golden dude was just his construct going around doing stuff. I'm not quite so enthusiastic in supporting that one, even though it is certainly an intriguing take on the fluff)


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## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

Lord of the Night said:


> The Emperor does not protect he also turned Magnus away and send the Wolves to wreck his homeworld and all Magnus was trying to do was save everyone from Horus. .


I thought he sent Russ to make a peaceful arrest, but Horus told him that the emporer wanted him to destroy magnus, and since Horus was the warmaster Russ listened to him (and Russ's dislike of Magnus didn't help things either)




Lord of the Night said:


> Plus now the Emperor's inquisition, which he ordered to be founded, slaughters millions in the name of the Emperor for little more than minor infractions, even sometimes just because they can.


Remember although he did order the founding of the =][= he "died" shortly afterwards, leaving them to make up their own rules and regulations meaning that they never had the benefit of his wisdom, had he not "died" immediately afterwards then they might of been a completely different orgnisation

As for the original question:
The Emperor protects....FACT


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

lawrence96 said:


> I thought he sent Russ to make a peaceful arrest, but Horus told him that the emporer wanted him to destroy magnus, and since Horus was the warmaster Russ listened to him (and Russ's dislike of Magnus didn't help things either)


We have conflicting accounts. 

False Gods implies that Horus actually tricked Russ into attacking Prospero rather than just 'peacefully' arresting Magnus. (Although it doesn't explicity state this)

However I personally am more under the impression that the Emperor ordered the burning of Prospero (to remove the taint of sorcery) and the aprehension of Magnus, by force if necessary.

for example, Old fluff aside, more recent fluff still has it as the Emperor ordering it:

Synopsis of A Thousand Sons:

"...the Master of Mankind dispatches fellow primarch Leman Russ to attack Prospero itself..."

Synopsis of Propsero Burns:

"The Emperor is enraged. Primarch Magnus the Red, of the Thousand Sons Legion, has made a catastrophic mistake that endangers the safety of Terra. With no other choice, the Emperor charges Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, with the apprehension of his brother from the Thousand Sons home world of Prospero. This planet of sorcerers will not be easy to overcome, but Russ and his Space Wolves are not easily deterred. With wrath in his heart, Russ is determined to bring Magnus to justice and cause the fall of Prospero."

It seems that the Emperor doesn't intend to kill Magnus, but still 'cause the fall of Prospero' - maybe in order to remove any taint and knowledge of sorcery.

Remember how desperate the Emperor was, having just conquered the galaxy and united humanity under his Iron Rule (thus starving Chaos of Worship (conscious or otherwise) by enforcing the Imperial Truth), the next stage of his plan was the Invasion the Webway which would remove Humanities reliance on Warp travel thus also weakening Chaos. Magnus not only broke the Emperors laws but threatened to destroy Terra and prevent the Emperor from achieveing his goals, and thus possibly even preventing humanity from salvation. The content of his warning was irrelavent, the Emperor likely believed that Magnus had become corrupted by sorcery and his message was the result of said corruption.

Magnus threatened to ruin the Emperor's plans for humanity, if I was in the Emperor's position I wouldnt just send his brother to arrest him quietly. I would have ordered Russ to burn Prospero to the ground, and arrest Magnus by force. Thus removing all knowledge of sorcery and removing the danger from the Imperium.

Another valid point is that if the Emperor intended to just peacefully arrest Magnus, why send Russ and the entire legion of Space Wolves? If it was a peaceful arrest at the order of the Emperor, I see no reason why Magnus would have refused. But the fact that Russ was sent (Russ who was publically known as hating Magnus), aswell as an entire legion of Astartes further leads me to believe that the Emperor actually ordered the Burning of Prospero and wasn't just the result of Horus' trickery.


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

I think its all on wording whether Prospero was meant to be destroyed yet Horus definitely says he intends to goad russ into murder.

However Child of the Emperor has once again given me food for thought as it would seem logical yet a thought strikes me...

Maybe the emperor was worried that Magnus had actually fallen under the influence of chaos through his use of sorcery and thus would resist arrest. 

If so i know who I would send, a large angry primarch and a legion of astartes to subdue another large angry primarch and a legion of astartes


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

deathbringer said:


> I think its all on wording whether Prospero was meant to be destroyed yet Horus definitely says he intends to goad russ into murder.
> 
> However Child of the Emperor has once again given me food for thought as it would seem logical yet a thought strikes me...
> 
> ...


My thoughts exactly. But if I were the Emperor, I would have sent Guilliman. Why? Because A, hes a good diplomat B, his Legion is tough enough to handle even Magnus and C, nobody would miss him should he die, along with his Legion. :laugh: Or Dorn, hes the last to betray the Emperor, but he was busy building the Imperial Palace. Or anyone but Russ. Hes a barbarian and a drunkard, and hes proud of it. Sending Russ to apprehend Magnus is, no matter the context, equivalent with sending Russ to kill Magnus. And there you go, one less loyalist Legion. Just As Planned. :grin:


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## vista101 (May 15, 2009)

In my oppinion the emporor is an incredible powerfull psyker, through worship the emporor gives his worshipers some help because of there extrme faith, the impereum could ad has survived tyranids daemons and countless horrors. The imperium is in a weak state because of the heracy, they lost most of there greatest worriors.


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## Iron Within (Mar 15, 2008)

Wow, I started this thread ages ago, then stopped posting here for a while, and here it is still. Anyway...

While I certainly think that the Ecclesiarchy and all that God Emperor stuff is crap, from what I have gathered the Emperor can and does, to a degree protect. He is not a god, but a very powerful psyker, who is capable of manipulating things across the galaxy. Besides, in my opinion a "god" is an omniscient being who can create things out of nothing, and I'm pretty sure the Emperor can't do that.

As for the whole attack on Prospero thing, I think there are conflicting accounts, and until March 2010 when we get Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons, I don't think we will really know what the Emperor's intentions were. Those books should make for the "official" account of what happened there.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Iron Within said:


> While I certainly think that the Ecclesiarchy and all that God Emperor stuff is crap, from what I have gathered the Emperor can and does, to a degree protect. He is not a god, but a very powerful psyker, who is capable of manipulating things across the galaxy. Besides, in my opinion a "god" is an omniscient being who can create things out of nothing, and I'm pretty sure the Emperor can't do that.


Don't confuse what we generally consider the monotheistic 'God' in the real world (omni/potent/scient/benevolent etc) with the ambiguous term that 'god' is in the 40k galaxy.

As an example The 4 Chaos Powers are generally considered 'gods', but by your opinion, can they create things out of nothing? & are they omniscient? No. But they are still classed as 'gods'.

The C'tan are also commonly known as the 'Star gods' but are they omniscient and can they create things out of nothing? I think you see what im getting at!

There is no reason why the Emperor can't be labelled a 'god'.



Iron Within said:


> As for the whole attack on Prospero thing, I think there are conflicting accounts, and until March 2010 when we get Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons, I don't think we will really know what the Emperor's intentions were. Those books should make for the "official" account of what happened there.


Indeed. I tend to take the HH series as the 'official line' - although technically it isn't (nothing is!)


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Iron Within said:


> Besides, in my opinion a "god" is an omniscient being who can create things out of nothing, and I'm pretty sure the Emperor can't do that.


Then Tzeentch is your man. :grin: Hes omniscient if you consider that Fateweaver can see the future as clearly as Tzeentch can see the past and present.

And by the way, the Emperor did create things out of nothing, most notably a warp storm. :grin:


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## Iron Within (Mar 15, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Don't confuse what we generally consider the monotheistic 'God' in the real world (omni/potent/scient/benevolent etc) with the ambiguous term that 'god' is in the 40k galaxy.
> 
> As an example The 4 Chaos Powers are generally considered 'gods', but by your opinion, can they create things out of nothing? & are they omniscient? No. But they are still classed as 'gods'.
> 
> ...


That is true, but did the Chaos gods create their demons? (Thats not sarcasm, I am seriously asking). But, anyway for the sake of the 40k universe you're right.



Khorothis said:


> Then Tzeentch is your man. :grin: Hes omniscient if you consider that Fateweaver can see the future as clearly as Tzeentch can see the past and present.


Yes, I love Tzeentch and the Thousand Sons. Thats a great pairing. Part of why I've never actually mad a 40k army is because I could never decide which one I want to make. The Thousand Sons have always been a front runner. I can't wait until March so I get the two HH novels that focus on them.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

The Chaos Gods create their daemons using their own "flesh", so to speak. So they don't make them out of thin air, except if you admit that said thin air contains infinite amount of warp and mindfuck. Which happens to be the core "materia" making up said Chaos Gods. :grin:


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> Of course it isn't!
> 
> Though I prefer the theory that His number is 5. It's a count-down, see, with Slaanesh being 6, and the Star Child, the God of Order, to be 5. After all, a fist has 5 fingers...and you OBEY the fist. Who, then, will eventually be 4?


All I know is, The Nex will be number- *mind crumbles, as worms crawl out of every orifice* :grin:


But seriously, I suspect the Emperor might protect, or he might not. The thing about 40K's fluff is, you decide what you believe about the nature of the god/mortal relationships are. Its all deliberately vague and bewildering.

I suspect the potential (horrific) Starchild/father construct (constructed from the directed faith and fauning adoration of humanity to the CONCEPT of the Emperor) will be a chaos god of domination and tyranny. The Emperor protects, but it is 'protection' taken to its horrifying extreme! Just like Tzeentch is hope taken to its extreme, Khorne is anger taken to its extreme, and so on.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

LordLucan;528746I suspect the potential (horrific) Starchild/father construct (constructed from the directed faith and fauning adoration of humanity to the CONCEPT of the Emperor) will be a chaos god of domination and tyranny. The Emperor protects said:


> [offtopic]Reminds me of Loghain from Dragon Age...[/offtopic]
> 
> I like Chaos, but the Emperor is an ass, even if he does end up being a Chaos God. I mean, all the four Chaos Gods are nice guys (much like Kharn ), but Emps is definately not. I wouldn't like it if he'd become a Chaos God. Let him be that asshole good-guys' weakling god he is right now. Chaos needs an antagonist, don't you agree? :grin:


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

Khorothis said:


> [offtopic]Reminds me of Loghain from Dragon Age...[/offtopic]
> 
> I like Chaos, but the Emperor is an ass, even if he does end up being a Chaos God. I mean, all the four Chaos Gods are nice guys (much like Kharn ), but Emps is definately not. I wouldn't like it if he'd become a Chaos God. Let him be that asshole good-guys' weakling god he is right now. Chaos needs an antagonist, don't you agree? :grin:


Erm, why can't he be a chaos god and be a nemesis of chaos?


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