# Tyranid tactics Vs necrons.



## Orathis

Hello. I am orathis. I posted on the welcome thread. Anyway, I joined mainly because me and my friend are going to be playing each other tomorrow at our local GW, and I need help. He is playing necrons, and I am a tyranid player. I want to ask how to use my 'nids effectively in order to get the upper hand. The game is 1000 points, most probably annihilation or seize ground. Maybe both if we have time, so I would like two army's and tactics based on what I have and what he has that I know he will defiantly have. So, lets get on with it then.

My army (any upgrades and/or different weapons are aloud.):

30 termagants
8 hormagaunts
28 genestealers
3 warriors 
1 hive tyrant (I may not be allowed to use it as it's in ba shape)
1 carnifex (I'm open to any way of using it dakkafex or any other combination.)
2 zoanthropes
2 lictors (again may not be able to use as currently unassembled.)
3 rippers ( if I can find them)
1 mycettic spore ( home made, bad quality)
1 biovore

My friends army ( that he is practically guaranteed to take)
Necron lord with destroyer body + resi orb
A number of warriors.
Possibly a tomb spyder
A number of scarabs.

Please note he may take extra things, but will 99% take these


Any and all help will be very much apricated, thank you.


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## Orathis

Sorry to do this but (bump)


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## Zer0

Probably your best bet would be to try to close as quickly as possible, swamp him in close combat and force his squads to fall back, thus removing their RP counters.
To that end, I'd go 'stealer heavy, infiltrate them or outflank them to get close and charge in as soon as you can.


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## Orathis

Thanks for te advice. I already played him though. I lost due tue a lucky shot, but we're rematching soon. 

My army choice went termagant heavy, using some borrowed models. Ended up with about 36. Swarmlord + 5 warriors & prime + broodlord & 10 genestealers + doom of malan'ti. It was a close game. Next time I'll go more stealer heavy, as my broodlord + genestealers went in turn one.


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## MidnightSun

Swarmlord at 1000pts? You're a braver man than me.

I'd take one unit of 10 Termagants, use the Carnifex as a Tervigon, both Zoanthropes, and then fill the rest of the army with Genestealers which should outflank (Always reserve Genestealers).

Just my quick tuppence.

Midnight


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## Zer0

Since you've played him, can you go into more detail about his list?


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## Orathis

Yeah he went 3 squads of warriors and a lord w/ destroyer body+resiorb, and a lord w/ resi orb, and a wraith. 

Basically my broodlord and genestealers got killed in te first turn, but his wraith went down in the first combat. (tried to take on warriors. Wounded one to 2 wounds.) swarmlord battled destroyer lord and killed it ( was helped by gaunt squad.) then killed a whole squad of warriors before being shot down by his all his remaining units, 16 unit gaunt squad died about turn 4 or five in combat with 2 squads of necron warriors and a lord, backed up by the warrior squad. The doom of malan'ti took afew out but was killed. In the ends I surrendered with a remaining instinctive gaunts (4). It was a solid strategy, but was foiled by the lucky shooting, be because the swarmlord would have killed the other squad if it got into combat, which would have been next turn. Anyway it was an enjoyable and close game.


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## MidnightSun

Orathis said:


> swarmlord battled destroyer lord and killed it ( was helped by gaunt squad.) then killed a whole squad of warriors before being shot down by his all his remaining units, 16 unit gaunt squad died about turn 4 or five in combat with 2 squads of necron warriors and a lord, backed up by the warrior squad. The doom of malan'ti took afew out but was killed. In the ends I surrendered with a remaining instinctive gaunts (4). It was a solid strategy, but was foiled by the lucky shooting, be because the swarmlord would have killed the other squad if it got into combat, which would have been next turn. Anyway it was an enjoyable and close game.


Did the Swarmlord really need help killing a Destroyer Lord? He makes his opponent WS 1 for the majority of the time, and with Str 6 and ID'ing weapons he usually minces anything he touches. Saying this, I would, more often than not, use Paroxysm to disable a Warrior Squad for a turn.

You probably should have swamped him more, leaving him less time to shoot - bury his Warriors under a tide of Gaunts, hence my suggestion of a Tervigon. 30 Gaunts? Annoying, potentially dangerous. 30 Gaunts with FC and Poison 4+ (And re-rolling Hits with Swarmlord)? Lethal.

Midnight


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## darklove

Apart from the fact that the Destroyer Lord is too tough to be IDed by the SwarmLord.

I would generally try to lock Necrons in CC asap. They are not helpless in CC, but they are worse at it than shooting so that is your best chance.

Outflanking Genestealers is solid, depending on the enemy's choices regarding terrain manipulation.

A Hive Commander that lets you outflank the Warrior unit might also be useful instead of the SwarmLord.

If you go shooty then volume of fire will trump high-S shots vs Necrons.


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## Orathis

Okay thanks for the advice


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## Angelofdeath690

I would give my advice but much of it was said already by others. One thing to consider and i know many don't worry about it that much is if you have trouble with outflanking and getting into cc (granted most times it doesn't happen) you can take a look at a venomthrope. They aren't that great but the cover save can provide mobile cover to your units from the heavy fire armies like the necrons.


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## Lord Azune

I've only played 2 games against the new necron but it seems to me like the easiest way to deal with them is zoan's/Hive Guard for the vehicles and a crapton of devilgaunts for his troops. The necron I fought against soundly stomped me when I tried using genestealers, warriors, hormagaunts or termagaunts. His troops were always safely ensconed in some kinda cover so assaulting caused me to go at init 1, to where he smacked the crap out of my little crappy gaunts with everything.


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## Igniskhin

acid blood and toxic miasma (sp?) i've lost 5-8 warriors to those two things alone in a single combat... rolling against a necrons initiative is so cheap it actual makes me cry a little inside.


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## Lord Azune

Igni, you've made my day, I plan on rematching the Necron again and giving him the bugs with your idea. Muahaha.

Though, my biggest problem against Necron is getting across the field with the units that can destroy him. Deepstriking isn't something Tyranids are especially good at... sure we have infiltration and a few other things but its mainly the assaulting into cover that always kills me against them.


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## darklove

Lord Azune said:


> Igni, you've made my day, I plan on rematching the Necron again and giving him the bugs with your idea. Muahaha.
> 
> Though, my biggest problem against Necron is getting across the field with the units that can destroy him. Deepstriking isn't something Tyranids are especially good at... sure we have infiltration and a few other things but its mainly the assaulting into cover that always kills me against them.


Winged Warriors can DS, as can anything with a snotpod option. I like to DS Warriors usually, cutting off any retreating enemies.


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## Scotty80

darklove said:


> Apart from the fact that the Destroyer Lord is too tough to be IDed by the SwarmLord.


Swarmlord's attacks cause Instant Death


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## OddJob

MidnightSun said:


> and then fill the rest of the army with Genestealers which should outflank (Always reserve Genestealers)


Slightly off topic, but I would very rarely outflank genestealers. Infiltration is almost always better.

In this particular case a large squad of FNP/cover infiltrating stealers is panic inducing for the necrons (my current necron list includes a Triarch Stalker to hold units like this up).


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## darklove

Stalker won't hold them up much. Stealers are a potent CC unit, but nothing special as far as Necrons are concerned. If you are I2 it doesn't really matter if your opponent is 2 or 4 points better than you.
Wraiths are possibly the best counter-CC unit the Necrons have, C'tan and Lychguard possibly the second and third but I have not decided in which order.

Quantity over quality is what is needed for the Tyranids to beat Necrons.


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## OddJob

darklove said:


> Stalker won't hold them up much.


Worst case scenario:

20 stealers on the charge-

60 x 2/3 x 1/6 x 1/3 = 2.2 glancing hits or ~ 1/3 destroyed stalkers, aka probably surviving the worst case scenario.

But if you let 20 stealers charge, you are an idiot so thin them out a bit before the combat to improve your odds (which are fairly good even in the worst case).



darklove said:


> Stealers are a potent CC unit, but nothing special as far as Necrons are concerned. If you are I2 it doesn't really matter if your opponent is 2 or 4 points better than you.


I'm not really sure what this means- a large stealer squad will butcher any infantry in the cron army. Cover and FNP seriously diminishes return casualties and they can infiltrate for a turn two charge. This isn't true of gants or the like.



darklove said:


> Wraiths are possibly the best counter-CC unit the Necrons have, C'tan and Lychguard possibly the second and third but I have not decided in which order.


All of which will fold like chocolate against stealers, except possibly for wraiths if you can tie up most of the squad with the walker.



darklove said:


> Quantity over quality is what is needed for the Tyranids to beat Necrons.


A meaningless platitude. Woop.

A bit less posting of mantra and a bit more thought (and experience?) is required methinks, especially since large stealer squads are something I expect to see in competative nid armies. They were definately in mine, and the thing they hated most were av13 walkers.


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## darklove

My point was that Stealers are not especially better than any other CC unit in the Tyranid codex vs Necrons. Tyranid Warriors with rending and Scything Talons are probably better than Stealers at killing Necrons. Toxin Hormagaunts are probably better than Stealers.

And please 'woop' your own bunkum. I play Necrons and Tyranids, which is perhaps more than you can say.


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## Aramoro

Erm no warriors would be in no way better, costing twice as much and can't infiltrate. I would be tempted to go with oddjob on this one, on account of him being right. He has written a really excellent series on playing Nids, you should read it as it's very good.


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## darklove

Warriors can outflank with a hive commander. They have more wounds. They are synaps. They can use drop pods.
They have the same attacks in CC as Stealers, but are just generally better against Necrons.

Looks like lots of you all came out from under the bridge tonight.


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## lokis222

Thinking about the genestealers, I would be worried about them being shot to death before even getting into combat. A stalker will be a massive headache for genestealers, but any mech will give them headaches. AV 13 all around means they are as likely to hurt it as a stalker. A footslogger with phaeron will put out significant shots and whittle away the group. I would just avoid them and shoot them to death. 

How do you plan to give them FNP? A tervigon? 

Use of a tremor staff will have them rolling to move, and run. Reducing their effective threat range from average of 13-18 to 8-18. With averages of 15. Use of cover also drastically reduces the effectiveness of genestealers. A big group of necrons will probably kill most of a group that has taken at least one round of shooting.

I see things to get them on foot and stranglehorn cannons and biovores perhaps doinging some good.


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## Lord Azune

Biovores and stranglethorn/barbed strangler don't exactly work well against warriors in cover. It won't kill enough quickly enough for it to matter if the Necron player has a lord w/ Resi orb and a ghost ark.

Then again, I may just suck at rolling. I have terrible luck against cover as Nids.


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## lokis222

Lord Azune said:


> Biovores and stranglethorn/barbed strangler don't exactly work well against warriors in cover. It won't kill enough quickly enough for it to matter if the Necron player has a lord w/ Resi orb and a ghost ark.
> 
> Then again, I may just suck at rolling. I have terrible luck against cover as Nids.


That's the thing. The right list won't worry about the cover. Necrons have limited range. So, you build lists around exploiting this. You have three possible win conditions. Two of which are objective. 

Harpy with venom cannons and tyrannofex's to go for the vehicles at range. Biovores and warriors with stranglehorn to take potshots at range. Unless the Necron player is using Phaeron, he can't move and shoot worth a damn. So, let him sit in cover. Who cares. The goal isn't to kill, it is to win. Priority targets are doomsday barges. Once they are gone, heavy destroyers and any other range 36 weapons. 

Punish the player for using cover. Exploit the weaknesses. Got scarabs, blast templates. 

Got wraiths, shoot them with hive guard.

Hit the monolith with MCs. 

Shoot the annihilation barge with range 48/36 anti-tank.

Every vehicle is open top. 

Stay outside of the range and make him move. 

Play the objectives.

In killpoints, take out the vehicles.

In objectives, camp them.

Nids have guns, use them. 

With Grey Knights, Dark Eldar, Guard, and now Necrons, if we play the mindless beast, we get pawned. 

Control the board and control the movement. It works. 

Here is my current all comers, and it has been working.

HQ

Tervigon
TS
AG 
Clusterspines
Onslaught

Hive Tyrant
Venom Cannon
Hive Guard

Elites

Hive Guard 3

Hive Guard 3

Zoanthropes 2

Troops

20 Termaguants
Devourers

14 Termagants

Tervigon
TS
AG
Clusterspines
Catalyst

Heavy

Tyrannofex 
Rupture Cannon

Tyrannofex 
Rupture Cannon

Biovores 3 

This is about 2000pts.

The basic idea is don't play their game. They want you to charge. Currently, Nids are at a disadvantage if they do. When move through cover gives us assault grenades, then things will be different, but for now, we got to suck it up.

You have 4 48 inch shots that will do beautiful things to open-topped AV 13.

You have 3 48 inch large blast templates that cause pinning.

You have one 36 inch blast that can pop an AV 13 if you are lucky or instant kill destroyers, wraiths, scarabs, etc

Let them come to you. They move, they don't shot 24 inches.

At 24 inches, you have 12 st 8 shots that you don't need LOS for. Abuse that.

At 24 inches you have 2 AP3 blasts.

At 18 inches you have 2 large blast.

At 18 inches you have 60 shots that if the unit shot at has to take a leadership test, it does so at -1.

And you make your own cover.


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## Lord Azune

The monolith, doom scythe and night scythe are not open topped. My biggest concern with your list would be the lack of anti-monolith.

Actually, scratch that on the anti monolith.... rupture cannons can do it on a 4+. so thats 4 shots at 48". Not sure on the math hammer but I imagine thats low odds with the BS 3. It'd be a 4+ to hit and then a 4+ to glance.


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## Hayden86

Lord Azune said:


> The monolith, doom scythe and night scythe are not open topped. My biggest concern with your list would be the lack of anti-monolith.


 
I dont have a copy of the new Necron book( and i do not know the mono stats ) but i would think Tyrannofex X 2 Rupture Cannon would do more then dent a Mono ?

opcorn: The seedpod that can cause a massive implosion.


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## lokis222

Lord Azune said:


> The monolith, doom scythe and night scythe are not open topped. My biggest concern with your list would be the lack of anti-monolith.


Not as big a concern as you think. Of the three, I would only really be concerned about the night scythe. The monolith is tough but slow. The doom has to kill 175 points and will probably die the turn after it shoots. Deployment will be important. A night scythe could bring some problematic units, but regardless, better than assaulting through cover.


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## lokis222

I wouldnt use a tfex on a lith. I would avoid it and destroy the army around it. It i had to engage, I would use the Zoans with onslaught or an MC to kill it.


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## Lord Azune

Hrmm, I totally overlooked the Zoans. My appologies.


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## lokis222

Lord Azune said:


> Hrmm, I totally overlooked the Zoans. My appologies.


Yeah, it is a limited range, but that is one of the reasons for onslaught. 

Two T-Fexs shooting at one Monolith is on average one Pen shot. It is a waste of effort to use them there. They can pretty reliably take down a doom scythe or night scythe as long as they haven't done their super move. Thing is, if they do their super move, IIRC, even if they make their cover save, the pen counts and they become AV 11. At that point, hive guard go to town and try to overwhelm the cover save. They will try to supersonic into range to be effective next turn, which means in most cases, they will be in range of the hive guard.


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## Lord Azune

Under RAW I'd have to say that the Pen wouldn't count for Quantum Shielding. PG 62 of the LBR (I only have the AOBR one), says that If the target is obscured and suffers a glancing or penetrating hit, it may take a cover save against it. If the save is passed, the hit is discarded (I.E. as if it had never been hit.)


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## lokis222

Too bad. My main rule has been MIA for almost six months. Still, the rest is sound anti necron and given that I play both armies, I think pretty good. Basically, this is my counter for my all comer Necron list.


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## OddJob

darklove said:


> Warriors can outflank with a hive commander. They have more wounds. They are synaps. They can use drop pods.
> They have the same attacks in CC as Stealers, but are just generally better against Necrons.


For a roughly equivalent points output stealers have:
Higher WS and I
Loads more attacks (and ~equivalent numbers of wounds)
Immunity to st8 ID (terrified of missiles and fists- or harbingers of destruction)

and most importantly

*Infiltrate and Fleet* (if your face on turn two)

There is literally no comparison between the two units as a dedicated cc unit, which is why you often see large stealer units in competative lists and never see warriors.



darklove said:


> Looks like lots of you all came out from under the bridge tonight.


A bit more lurking might be more beneficial for you than posting bad advice.


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## OddJob

lokis222 said:


> Thinking about the genestealers, I would be worried about them being shot to death before even getting into combat.


Cover and FNP (if you go first) makes each stealer more durable than a marine. Infiltrate means they are in your pants on turn two. They are really difficult to whittle in one turn.




lokis222 said:


> A stalker will be a massive headache for genestealers, but any mech will give them headaches. AV 13 all around means they are as likely to hurt it as a stalker. A footslogger with phaeron will put out significant shots and whittle away the group. I would just avoid them and shoot them to death.


The walker is the only one that has av13 in cc. Two things- The stealers shouldn't be the only threat on turn two (hive guard, gargs, ymagarls, more stealers etc) and necrons generally lack the transport saturation of guard or marines (arc 115pts, sythe 100pts, chimera 55pts, rhino 35pts). How many attack vectors (heard that in a movie last night ) can you block off at once? Any vehicle that moves less than 6" is toast.

20 gauss shots (thanks to the phaeron):

20 x 2/3 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 ~ 1-2 dead stealers. Or 3 dead stealers if you move into rapid fire range (assissted suicide). Not so impressive.



lokis222 said:


> How do you plan to give them FNP? A tervigon?


Darn tootin.



lokis222 said:


> Use of a tremor staff will have them rolling to move, and run. Reducing their effective threat range from average of 13-18 to 8-18. With averages of 15. Use of cover also drastically reduces the effectiveness of genestealers. A big group of necrons will probably kill most of a group that has taken at least one round of shooting.


The movement issue isn't so bad:
1. They generally infiltrate into cover anyway (at least half the unit does).
2. They have move through cover.

So realistically you lose an inch or two (maybe) on the assault move. ~50% chance of at least one 6 on 3D6, with an average of 5.

20 Warriors get to strike first:

20 x 1/2 x 1/2 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 40/24 = 1.7 dead stealers... I presume you don't need me to average the return digs...


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## Aramoro

darklove said:


> Warriors can outflank with a hive commander. They have more wounds. They are synaps. They can use drop pods.
> They have the same attacks in CC as Stealers, but are just generally better against Necrons.
> 
> Looks like lots of you all came out from under the bridge tonight.


Oh dear.....just oh...wow, don't know what to do with that information. Read Oddjobs post and that'll sort you out there. 

Necrons have Death Rays making Warriors junk, just as they are junk against every army. 

So far I've played Newcrons with Blood Angels and Grey Knights (Inquisition) and they are still brutally bad in close combat. An all jumper BA army got me a wipeout on turn 3. Hive Guard + Stealers will wreck Newcrons pretty badly as they have no abundance or flamers or anything like that. I don't see Stalkers being popular enough to be common in Newcron armies even though they give Stealers a headache.


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## lokis222

Stealershock looks good in numbers. However, you need to set up turn two to be effective. The the tervigon has to be in range. It is base almost 300pts and if you take toxin sacs, more than 300. If there is a phaeron in the group, point to point you will die. It will take awhile but when your points ard gone, the necron player will still be alive. A command barge can move fast enough to get a cover save and only be hit on sixs. Not sure about the cover in CC, my book is MIA. A monolith could wreak all your plans. Let alone that guy with the staff who might wipe out a large percent of your unit with one wound depending on the FAQ. This is a short list. There are more counters than this and all are cheaper point wise than the stealer horde.


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## Aramoro

Erm Tervigons with Toxin Sacs and Catalyst are 185 pts, not 300. You're saying Stealershock is bad because Nids will only have Stealers and Tervigons but Necrons will have Trazyn (it would be more a freak occurrence that he did anything useful), Monoliths, Warriors, Command Barges + a bunch of other stuff. I would fancy that the Nid player also has other units as well, like Hive Guard who will mess up your Open Topped vehicles pretty well. 

For Trazyn the maths goes like this, 3 attacks on 4's to hit, wounding on 3's means 1 wound. Stealer gets his save + FnP so you cause a wound in every one in 3 Sweeps of the brood. But say you do kill a dude, 19 of them left, 9.5 are hit, after saves 3 Stealers die. That is not a great return on investment for suiciding your HQ.


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## lokis222

Aramoro said:


> Erm Tervigons with Toxon Sacs and Catalyst are 185 pts, not 300. You're saying Stealershock is bad because Nids will only have Stealers and Tervigons but Necrons will have Trazyn (it would be more a freak occurrence that he did anything useful), Monoliths, Warriors, Command Barges + a bunch of other stuff. I would fancy that the Nid player also has other units as well, like Hive Guard who will mess up your Open Topped vehicles pretty well.
> 
> For Trazyn the maths goes like this, 3 attacks on 4's to hit, wounding on 3's means 1 wound. Stealer gets his save + FnP so you cause a wound in every one in 3 Sweeps of the brood. But say you do kill a dude, 19 of them left, 9.5 are hit, after saves 3 Stealers die. That is not a great return on investment for suiciding your HQ.


No, the tervigon kitted with catalyst is 175.It cant give toxin to genestealers. What I am saying is a well balanced necron list wont be too concerned with 20 genestealers. That being the close to 300pt unit. The stealers will havr FNP for 1 turn. After that they are fubar.
Each of those units are listed as seperate counters, in that you can counter that mini deathstar cheaply.


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## Aramoro

I know it can't give Poison to the Stealers, just trying to work out your cryptic postings. It's like scrying in owl intestines. 

20 Stealers with Toxin is 340 points, not inconsiderable but assuming you're playing a decent points value game they're not the only thing on the board. Stealers will have FnP for at least one turn but I would not call it a mini deathstar, it's just a unit that you happen to have a Tervigon near. You're probably using Tervigons anyway because you like winning. I would expect all the Stealers to die in the end, but it would be extremely unlucky for them not to take a bunch of stuff with them. It's just one unit, it's not like it's half your army or anything.


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## OddJob

lokis222 said:


> Stealershock looks good in numbers.


It's even better in reality, especially since it's only one unit in your army.



lokis222 said:


> However, you need to set up turn two to be effective.


Eh? Stealers infiltrate, i.e. deploy last and closer. They get to see your deployment then stick themselves in the most annoying spot. Against necrons this will probably involve a turn two charge.



lokis222 said:


> The the tervigon has to be in range. It is base almost 300pts and if you take toxin sacs, more than 300.


With large numbers of bods you can very easily leave a trail of bods back to the 18" range of the tervigon catalyst (or 12" if you feel you need to be fearless).



lokis222 said:


> If there is a phaeron in the group, point to point you will die.


If there is a phaeron with the group there is a single combat phase then the warriors are run down and dead, or even worse you pass the Ld2 test (or the stealer player gets clever by stringing out to lower the number of attacks) and you die in the second combat phase.



lokis222 said:


> It will take awhile but when your points ard gone, the necron player will still be alive.


Will somebody else explain how combat works because this is getting silly.



lokis222 said:


> A monolith could wreak all your plans.


I assume you are referring to an old skool monolith wall. Newsflash- infiltrate means you are generally responding to the stealers, not the other way round. The monolith is too slow to be an effective assault blocker, and even if it gets in the way I'll assault it to get an extra 6" movement while moving round it.



lokis222 said:


> Let alone that guy with the staff who might wipe out a large percent of your unit with one wound depending on the FAQ. This is a short list. There are more counters than this and all are cheaper point wise than the stealer horde.


Sigh- you havn't come up with a single counter strategy to what is a very worrying and competitive unit. For what it's worth these are my counter strategies (I play both armies at a high level):

Triarch Stalker tieing them up in cc- stealers hate (HATE) av13 walkers. Open topped makes this more risky than I'd like but if the two units flail handbags for the rest of the game (likely) I'd call this a very fair trade.

Scarab assault blocking- It's going to take 15-16 scarab bases to take a full stealer charge and survive for one combat phase so a farm might be a valid delaying tactic.

Vehicle blocking- a lot of points invested into a wall in the form of arcs or barges. Night sythes run the serious risk of being hive guarded thus putting a hole in your skimmer wall (so use the tougher vehicles).

In reality you'll probably have to use a combination of the above to keep the nastyness at bay.

With that I'm bowing out of this thread. I'm honestly amazed that I've had to spend so long explaining basics.


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## lokis222

OddJob said:


> It's even better in reality, especially since it's only one unit in your army.
> 
> Of course it is only one unit in the army.
> 
> Eh? Stealers infiltrate, i.e. deploy last and closer. They get to see your deployment then stick themselves in the most annoying spot. Against necrons this will probably involve a turn two charge.
> 
> That is where I disagree. Played properly, they will never see CC.
> 
> With large numbers of bods you can very easily leave a trail of bods back to the 18" range of the tervigon catalyst (or 12" if you feel you need to be fearless).
> 
> Which makes them even less effective.
> 
> If there is a phaeron with the group there is a single combat phase then the warriors are run down and dead, or even worse you pass the Ld2 test (or the stealer player gets clever by stringing out to lower the number of attacks) and you die in the second combat phase.
> 
> See above. Phaeron means you can move and shoot at 24 inches. If you see combat, your group is useless because it has been shot for two plus turns. You start 18 inches away. I have first tern, I move 6 and shoot 24. If I have 15 footsloggers, that is 7.5 hits. and 3.75 wounds. You might pass one armor save. If you start in cover, you might still lose 2 guys. You move 6 and and run six (most likely moving 9.5 inches. I move back 6 inches and shoot, you have feel no pain, but hey, still kill a guy. You start your turn 21.5 inches away. You move six and run six (most likely getting 9.5). I teleport away using a veil or a monolith and your guy is left holding his dick in his hand, horribly out of position and likely, unable to do much for at least another turn or depending, the rest of the game. 340pts wasted. This is what a good necron player does.
> 
> Will somebody else explain how combat works because this is getting silly.
> 
> Don't be an asshole. It only makes your reasoning look like the crap it is.
> 
> I assume you are referring to an old skool monolith wall. Newsflash- infiltrate means you are generally responding to the stealers, not the other way round. The monolith is too slow to be an effective assault blocker, and even if it gets in the way I'll assault it to get an extra 6" movement while moving round it.
> 
> Nope, wasn't talking about that at all.
> 
> Sigh- you havn't come up with a single counter strategy to what is a very worrying and competitive unit. For what it's worth these are my counter strategies (I play both armies at a high level):
> 
> Oddly, me too. Most of the people I play are tournament players. But hey, at least you have a high opinion of yourself. Personally, I thought your Tyranid FAQ was decent, but Midge's was much, much better. As to Necrons, post your list, let's see if it is as good as you think it is.
> 
> Triarch Stalker tieing them up in cc- stealers hate (HATE) av13 walkers. Open topped makes this more risky than I'd like but if the two units flail handbags for the rest of the game (likely) I'd call this a very fair trade.
> 
> So your strategy is hope they don't glance.... ? :laugh:
> 
> Scarab assault blocking- It's going to take 15-16 scarab bases to take a full stealer charge and survive for one combat phase so a farm might be a valid delaying tactic.
> 
> Huge waste of resources.
> 
> Vehicle blocking- a lot of points invested into a wall in the form of arcs or barges. Night sythes run the serious risk of being hive guarded thus putting a hole in your skimmer wall (so use the tougher vehicles).
> 
> See Above.
> 
> In reality you'll probably have to use a combination of the above to keep the nastyness at bay.
> 
> With that I'm bowing out of this thread. I'm honestly amazed that I've had to spend so long explaining basics.
> 
> Your strategies sucks.


You are either a crap Necron player or you have used your Nids against crap Necron players. 

Personally, I am with Darklove, you and Aramoro are probably just trolling. Pretty normal behaviour from Aramoro, but a first for you.

My strategy would be and this is a shocker: Don't let the genestealers see combat, ever.

With the new Necron book, this is really very easy. 

1.A cheap veil of darkness could render stealershock useless. 

2. A Nightscythe.

3. A monolith.

4. Vanguard.

Almost every list will have one of the above.

Use what you already have to tie up 340pts of waste. As a strategy, I like it. Since both you and the rager are a bit obtuse, I will explain how 1 through 4 work.

1. Teleport away when stealers get close.

2. Embark and go somewhere else. 

3. Teleport away.

4. Teleport away.

I realize it is really hard to get behind ideas that are not attempts to mathhammer results to your ends, but here is something that will help. 

Number of models dead if genestealers don't get CC = 0.
Combative efficiency = 0%

Obviously, this won't always work, but it will more often than the stealer shock. 

Next time, don't be a dick. I lost a lot of respect for you.


----------



## lokis222

Add to that the C'tan that allows you to redeploy units after infiltrate. Haven't tested its usefulness yet, but it could be a winner.


----------



## Aramoro

Normal for me to troll? Bitch please. 

I always aim to be helpful but in the face of blinding wrongness such as yourself it's hard to hold it all inside. The thrust of this thread is Necrons suck unbelievably hard in Close Combat, Nids are good at getting into combat. Your argument is nothing but 'no but then I would have this, then this, then my opponent would play like a cretin' now that is not an argument. Like in your Phaeron example the stealers start 18" away so you must walk backwards off the board by your second move, when you post things like that you have to forgive us for thinking you have no idea what you're doing. 

Personally as a Daemon player and two of my regular opponents being Nids I know how much a pain in the ass an AV13 walker is to Stealers.


----------



## lokis222

Aramoro said:


> Normal for me to troll? Bitch please.
> 
> I always aim to be helpful but in the face of blinding wrongness such as yourself it's hard to hold it all inside. The thrust of this thread is Necrons suck unbelievably hard in Close Combat, Nids are good at getting into combat. Your argument is nothing but 'no but then I would have this, then this, then my opponent would play like a cretin' now that is not an argument. Like in your Phaeron example the stealers start 18" away so you must walk backwards off the board by your second move, when you post things like that you have to forgive us for thinking you have no idea what you're doing.
> 
> Personally as a Daemon player and two of my regular opponents being Nids I know how much a pain in the ass an AV13 walker is to Stealers.



Actually, the thread is Tyranid Tactics vs Necrons. Either way, stealershock will fail against any competent Necron player. 

There is a big board and multiple directions to move or redeploy. Because any competent necron player will know stealershock, they can easily deploy to avoid it or use common additions to the normal necron lists to get out of its way. It is a crap strategy for the reasons I have already outlined. 

It will work if the necron player is incompetent.


----------



## Aramoro

It's not really that big a board once you've deployed, the most movement you've got is lateral movement which may take you further away from the stealers but not everything else. Also you're deploying 15 footslogging necrons so you've already failed 40K 101.


----------



## lokis222

Aramoro said:


> It's not really that big a board once you've deployed, the most movement you've got is lateral movement which may take you further away from the stealers but not everything else. Also you're deploying 15 footslogging necrons so you've already failed 40K 101.


My win record says you wrong. My current necron list is under All Comers Competative 2000pts Refined. I wouldnt be worried about stealershock at all. The tyranid list I posted earlier was my counter to this list.

A necron army is small, it has a lot of room to move. Tyranids need to control the board and make the opponent react. Using stealershock will have the tyranid player chasing the necrons all game unless the necron player is functionally useless.


----------



## lokis222

Either way, you are obviously clueless. Your only arguments have been insults to people's intelligence in an attempt to try to invalidate their ideas. Whenever I see you post I get this mental image of a midget screaming abuse at people while jumping up and down.

A normal necron toolbox will have the same ease avoiding the stealers as the list I mentioned last post.

edit: spelling; typing on small cellphones is hard.


----------



## Aramoro

I am quite sure your internet win/loss ratio against top tier tourney lists is very impressive as is everyone's. I'm quite sure you're 100 - 0 against all comers in the month the books been out. But in the end your arguments make no sense, there's just no logic to your arguments as all your counters involve just adding another unit and assuming your opponent doesn't. 

Oddjob has a proven track record with Nids as you can read. His points make sense and reflect well what actually happens in games. So like him I am out of this one as I can see it's a pointless continuing. You've reduced this to just making Ad hominin attacks which only shows up the fragility of your opinion. 

Oh and Congrats on the 6 annihilation victories you surely got whilst I was posting this.


----------



## lokis222

Aramoro said:


> I am quite sure your internet win/loss ratio against top tier tourney lists is very impressive as is everyone's. I'm quite sure you're 100 - 0 against all comers in the month the books been out. But in the end your arguments make no sense, there's just no logic to your arguments as all your counters involve just adding another unit and assuming your opponent doesn't.
> 
> Oddjob has a proven track record with Nids as you can read. His points make sense and reflect well what actually happens in games. So like him I am out of this one as I can see it's a pointless continuing. You've reduced this to just making Ad hominin attacks which only shows up the fragility of your opinion.
> 
> Oh and Congrats on the 6 annihilation victories you surely got whilst I was posting this.


Still insulting. I would expect nothing less from you. 

Yet, I have given some very solid ways for a normal necron army to render stealershock useless. Ways that most armies have without having to tailor their lists. My argument is it is a waste of points. A few pages ago, I even posted a strategy and a list that I thought would be much better than stealershock.


----------



## paolodistruggiuova

@lokis: Deploy a 15warrior unit+ veil of darkness on a flank, then your opponent infiltrate a stealer unit opposite to them with a tervigon, then he run 2 turns to close the gap, then you DS away and they stand there doing nothing for the rest of the game.
This is a good strategy to beat a 6years old kid at his first WH40k game probably.

Now on topic, nearly any nids unit munch trough necrons in HtH, so the best tactic imho is to bring either fast elements (harpies, ymgarls, infiltrating stealers) or swamp the board with gants (dont let them anyway to run), the stealershock tactic is good against necrons provided you have enough other threats to control the board, if by turn 3 the necron player dont have anyway to run to avoid CC then you did it right


----------



## lokis222

paolodistruggiuova said:


> @lokis: Deploy a 15warrior unit+ veil of darkness on a flank, then your opponent infiltrate a stealer unit opposite to them with a tervigon, then he run 2 turns to close the gap, then you DS away and they stand there doing nothing for the rest of the game.
> This is a good strategy to beat a 6years old kid at his first WH40k game probably.
> 
> 
> Now on topic, nearly any nids unit munch trough necrons in HtH, so the best tactic imho is to bring either fast elements (harpies, ymgarls, infiltrating stealers) or swamp the board with gants (dont let them anyway to run), the stealershock tactic is good against necrons provided you have enough other threats to control the board, if by turn 3 the necron player dont have anyway to run to avoid CC then you did it right


I think it will be a little more versatile than that. There are a number of static armies going up on the Necron army list board, but quite a few of them are looking at being able to move fast. Not as fast as Dark Eldar. But still faster than most tyranids. 

If you get lucky and get into CC, you will win. Necron suck at close combat, but getting there will involve a lot of luck. 

Okay, can we look at this from the point of view of actual necron lists? Also, to mods, I am not sure dissecting a list like this is okay. If it isn't please let me know and I will delete it.

It's not mine, but I think it is pretty good. 

HQ

Necron Overlord
- Warscythe
- Tachyon Arrow
- Command Barge w/Gauss Cannon
-- 210 pts

Per turn two shots at 24 inches, ap 3. Trygon, harpy, tervigon hunter. Also, fast skimmer. If he doesn't shoot, he can move 24 inches, get a cover save and hit any unit up to 3 times. Moving flat-out, he hits on a four plus with a strength 7 armour ignoring weapon. He also has a one shot st10 weapon.

Necron Overlord
- Warscythe
- Tachyon Arrow
- Command Barge w/Gauss Cannon
-- 210 pts
As above.
Royal Court
- 4x Crypteks
- 3x Harbingers of Destruction
36 inch st8 ap2
- Solar Pulse x1
not a huge concern for nids.
- 1x Harbinger of the Storm
not a huge concern
-- 160 pts

Royal Court
- 3x Crypteks
- 3x Harbingers of Destruction
as above
- Solar Pulse x1
-- 125 pts

Elites

Triarch Stalker
-- 150 pts

flame template, twin linking everything that shoots at that unit afterwards. Or a 24 inch melta. same twin linking effect.

Triarch Stalker
- TL Heavy Gauss Cannon
-- 165 pts

Same as above except it is a 36 inch st 9 ap 2

Troops

Warriors x5
- Ghost Ark
-- 180 pts
five shots left, five shots right and five shots anywhere you want them at 24inches.
Warriors x5
- Ghost Ark
-- 180 pts

Warriors x5
- Ghost Ark
-- 180 pts

Warriors x5
- Ghost Ark
-- 180 pts

Heavy Support

Annihilation Barge
- Gauss Cannon
-- 90 pts
24 inch st 7 that can hit other units if he rolls lucky. add to that four shots. plus two shots of the above at st6 that doesn't jump to other units.
Annihilation Barge
- Gauss Cannon
-- 90 pts

Annihilation Barge
- Gauss Cannon
-- 90 pts

2000 pts even.

At infinite range, this guy is putting out two str 10 shots, once per game.

At 36 inches, this guy is putting out 6 st 8 shots and one twin linked str 9.

At 24 inches, this guy is putting out 2 str 8 melta shots, 60 gauss, 12 str 7 arcing tesla that wounds more lucky rolls and 6 str 6 tesla, which wounds more on lucky rolls to wound. Sorry, and 4 more ap3 shots from the command barges.

At twelve inches, all gauss doubles.

So, at 24 inches, 93 shots at BS 4 can shoot. Given the size of the army table wise, it is possible to have them all do that. 

Take out the two str 10 one shots. That is 91 shots at 24 inches. The stalker shoots with its twin-linked gun with its 88% chance to hit. If it does, everything is twin-linked to it. If it misses, the other stalker shoots its two melta shots, being bs 4, there is an 88% chance one of those will hit. That is when that stealershock you are so proud of suddenly sucks up wounds to disappear. 87 twin-linked shots with an 88% chance to hit. Of those, six instantly kill the stealers and they don't get feel no pain. You are down to 14 genestealers and 81 shots left. 65 of them wound and no armor save allowed. So, you roll you feel no pain and take 32.5 wounds. If you have cover, 16.25 dead. No more scary genestealers. 

This is gross overkill, so what is likely to happen, is that stealershock group will be hit till it is a joke and then the rest of the army turns on whatever else is in range. 

Every turn, everything within twenty four inches will be treated like this.

Edit: Of those shots, because of the ghostark rules, only ten per ark can be shot at one target. Apologies. Bring down the number by 20 possible shots at one target per turn. 73 rather than 93.

So 50 hits, 25 wounds and 13.5 dead.

Edit Edit: Doesn't include the extra wounds all that tesla can give you.

Edit Edit Edit: My math is way off. It is worse that I originally posted. 9 guys don't get FNP. Then 62 twinlinked shots at 24 inches of which 50 hit, 25 wound, 13.5 die after failing their FNP test. Unit wiped. 340pts gone. Necrons still sitting at an even 2000.


----------



## lokis222

Conclusion: You need a better strategy.:victory:


----------



## paolodistruggiuova

lokis222 said:


> ...
> Edit Edit Edit: My math is way off. It is worse that I originally posted. 9 guys don't get FNP. Then 62 twinlinked shots at 24 inches of which 50 hit, 25 wound, 13.5 die after failing their FNP test. Unit wiped. 340pts gone. Necrons still sitting at an even 2000.


First: again you seem to think that for some strange unknown tactic the nid will put the stealers in front of your entire army so that they're all in range and LoS to shoot them but lets assume that's ok.
Second: so 1660 points of tyranids (probably only 1200 cause of the standard hive guards) are now in your face, good luck with killing nids in HtH even with nearly double the points  oh and they autohit your vehicles cause you obviously didnt move anything to max out your shots right?



lokis222 said:


> Conclusion: You need a better strategy.:victory:


Mathhammering that your entire army can kill 1 unit a turn at 24'' isnt really that impressive, i still like necrons and I think they can give a hard time to tyranids, It's just not that simple staying out of combat tough.


----------



## Aramoro

paolodistruggiuova said:


> First: again you seem to think that for some strange unknown tactic the nid will put the stealers in front of your entire army so that they're all in range and LoS to shoot them but lets assume that's ok.
> Second: so 1660 points of tyranids (probably only 1200 cause of the standard hive guards) are now in your face, good luck with killing nids in HtH even with nearly double the points  oh and they autohit your vehicles cause you obviously didnt move anything to max out your shots right?
> 
> 
> 
> Mathhammering that your entire army can kill 1 unit a turn at 24'' isnt really that impressive, i still like necrons and I think they can give a hard time to tyranids, It's just not that simple staying out of combat tough.


You might as well give up here paolodistruggiuova, this is where tactics threads go to die, and anyway Lokis has probably cracked out 16 more flawless victories since he posted his list.


----------



## darklove

Traditionally, Nids have always struggled against Necrons. The New Necrons are much more deadly than they used to be, so why should Tyranids now find it easier than before?

This is not logical.


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## lokis222

paolodistruggiuova said:


> Mathhammering that your entire army can kill 1 unit a turn at 24'' isnt really that impressive, i still like necrons and I think they can give a hard time to tyranids, It's just not that simple staying out of combat tough.


My average model count for my horde army sits at around eighty models at 2000pts, which usually includes two tervigons. I find that kind of firepower intimidating and worth considering when building counter-tactics. You are obviously a better player than I am.


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## lokis222

Aramoro said:


> You might as well give up here paolodistruggiuova, this is where tactics threads go to die, and anyway Lokis has probably cracked out 16 more flawless victories since he posted his list.


It's not my list. It is Boc's list. I put it up because I think it is good, solid Necron list.


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## lokis222

paolodistruggiuova said:


> First: again you seem to think that for some strange unknown tactic the nid will put the stealers in front of your entire army so that they're all in range and LoS to shoot them but lets assume that's ok.
> Second: so 1660 points of tyranids (probably only 1200 cause of the standard hive guards) are now in your face, good luck with killing nids in HtH even with nearly double the points  oh and they autohit your vehicles cause you obviously didnt move anything to max out your shots right?


If they infiltrate, they will probably be within 18". This discussion came about because of Oddjob's tactic that he posted. 

The above is what would happen to a genestealer group that infiltrated within 18" of a solid necron list. This means that, if the Necron player goes first, at the start of your first turn, you could be down 340pts. You are not in the Necron players face. If you are lucky, the Necron player frigged up his deployement and you might be able to get some flyers in B2B with the tanks. If not, your turn will be hugging cover, moving forward, and crossing you fingers

Having a circle jerk about how great Nids are in H2H is not a tactics thread. A tactics thread is where you discuss ways to stop Necrons. 

What tyranids need are tactics to deal with those tanks in a way that preserves their army and strips the enemy of theirs.


----------



## paolodistruggiuova

you dont infiltrate stealers at 18" from a shooty army if you dont go first and the rest of your army is 30" away...you do it if you have both a fast army and first turn, if you go for horde of footslogging gants then outflanking is better so you hit the enemy at the same time of the rest of the army, sinergy in both list building and while playing is not an option for nids, not only vs necrons tough.


----------



## darklove

paolodistruggiuova said:


> you dont infiltrate stealers at 18" from a shooty army if you dont go first and the rest of your army is 30" away...you do it if you have both a fast army and first turn, if you go for horde of footslogging gants then outflanking is better so you hit the enemy at the same time of the rest of the army, sinergy in both list building and while playing is not an option for nids, not only vs necrons tough.


Nids can't do 'sinergy' [synergy]?

I think synergy is really important for any army, it tends to make the difference between a good list and losing so badly that people will start using your name as a byword for how not to play 40k.


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## Aramoro

darklove said:


> Nids can't do 'sinergy' [synergy]?
> 
> I think synergy is really important for any army, it tends to make the difference between a good list and losing so badly that people will start using your name as a byword for how not to play 40k.


I think I'm beginning to see why you thought old Necrons were a hard matchup for Nid.


----------



## OddJob

lokis222 said:


> My math is way off. It is worse that I originally posted. 9 guys don't get FNP. Then 62 twinlinked shots at 24 inches of which 50 hit, 25 wound, 13.5 die after failing their FNP test. Cover saves half of those Unit wiped. 340pts gone. Necrons still sitting at an even 2000.


I honestly can't follow your workings, but allowing the barges to rapid fire out one side (and rapid fire the guys inside, which can't happen since you were 18" away to start but whatever) gives me ~14-15 wounds on the stealers. For the sake of arguement lets take your result at face value.

There are 22 wounds in a full stealer unit, soooo, the combined output from an entire 2000pnt shooty army still leaves a bit under half of the unit.

This is, of course, in the absolute best case scenario for the shooty army of everything being able to fire at one squad, that infiltrated into a spot allowing the opposition army to do so.

And you still didn't come close to killing the unit.

In reality you will be doing very well to get half of your army into position to shoot at the stealers, cutting the wounds suffered down to ~6 (if you are doing *VERY* well- have you seen the size of ghost arcs?). Heaven forbid you might even suffer a less than average shooting phase?! The 'tactic' you suggest gives no plan B, no contigency should the dice roll anything less than epicly (I suppose "stand still and shoot all my guns" is technically a tactic, but I generally don't consider at a very good one). Mech guard is terrified of this unit, and they have a ton more firepower than the necron equivalent.

The assumptions you make suggest that you have no experience of how the big stealer squad works.

The counter strategies you propose suggest you have no experience of how the big stealer squad works (walking away...nobody has tried that before!).

You're unconcerned dismissiveness makes it *obvious* that you have no experience of how the big stealer squad works, or Tyranids in general which I feel matches up rather well against Necrons (makes a change for a new codex).

IM(experienced)O, here's how the list you posted should deal with the stealer unit- use the command barges to cock block the squad, limiting it's movement as much as possible while using other anti infantry shooting to whittle them (probably slowly). Ghost Arcs can do the blocking at a pinch (or if he has two giant stealer squads......Aiiiieeeee!?!!?) but the barges are best due to the ability to ignore immobilised results. Each turn the barges can move forward and backwards to swipe the stealers while moving over 6" and making the stealers movement problematic.

How to deal with the rest of the Tyranid army I'll leave up to you.

Personal note:
I can't believe I got pulled back into this thread, but the level of righteous ignorance was getting to me. I'm definately out now.


----------



## lokis222

OddJob said:


> I honestly can't follow your workings, but allowing the barges to rapid fire out one side (and rapid fire the guys inside, which can't happen since you were 18" away to start but whatever) gives me ~14-15 wounds on the stealers. For the sake of arguement lets take your result at face value.
> 
> None of those numbers were using rapid fire.
> 
> There are 22 wounds in a full stealer unit, soooo, the combined output from an entire 2000pnt shooty army still leaves a bit under half of the unit.
> 
> This is, of course, in the absolute best case scenario for the shooty army of everything being able to fire at one squad, that infiltrated into a spot allowing the opposition army to do so.
> 
> Do you have a necron book? That was a best case senario of the list I broke down. It was 73 shots at one target at 24 inches. You evidence earlier was the best case scenario for your genestealers. This is called mathhammer. If you don't want people throwing numbers at you, don't use them yourself.
> 
> And you still didn't come close to killing the unit.
> 
> Actually, it wiped the unit.
> 
> In reality you will be doing very well to get half of your army into position to shoot at the stealers, cutting the wounds suffered down to ~6 (if you are doing *VERY* well- have you seen the size of ghost arcs?).
> 
> I have three of them. Plus command barges and annihilation barges and a tyranid army. It can all fit.
> 
> Heaven forbid you might even suffer a less than average shooting phase?!
> 
> I did it mathhammer. The same way you showed how awesome genestealers were in CC.
> 
> The 'tactic' you suggest gives no plan B, no contigency should the dice roll anything less than epicly (I suppose "stand still and shoot all my guns" is technically a tactic, but I generally don't consider at a very good one). Mech guard is terrified of this unit, and they have a ton more firepower than the necron equivalent.
> 
> Mech Guard don't have the weight of shots from the armies I have played. Foot guard might. Are you confusing the two? Actually, the mech guard armies I have played would laugh at that tactic. Though, in one case the guy was being a dick when he heard I played tyranids. It was a ton of tanks with flamers and a core of lascannon guard to take out the big things. Every time I got close, he would move 6 inches on spray my guys.
> 
> 
> The assumptions you make suggest that you have no experience of how the big stealer squad works.
> 
> I have used them. I think it is a very good tactic actually. Just not here.
> 
> The counter strategies you propose suggest you have no experience of how the big stealer squad works (walking away...nobody has tried that before!).
> 
> I would say you have little experience against a mech Necron list or one that uses the movement ability of the Necrons. I think you are still thinking in terms of last edition Necron gunlines. They might still exist, but they are not going to be the most competitive lists.
> 
> You're unconcerned dismissiveness makes it *obvious* that you have no experience of how the big stealer squad works, or Tyranids in general which I feel matches up rather well against Necrons (makes a change for a new codex).
> 
> Been a tyranid player since the date I joined this site. I think it can match up very well against the new necron list, but I don't think stealershock is even in the top ten best options.
> 
> IM(experienced)O, here's how the list you posted should deal with the stealer unit- use the command barges to cock block the squad, limiting it's movement as much as possible while using other anti infantry shooting to whittle them (probably slowly). Ghost Arcs can do the blocking at a pinch (or if he has two giant stealer squads......Aiiiieeeee!?!!?) but the barges are best due to the ability to ignore immobilised results. Each turn the barges can move forward and backwards to swipe the stealers while moving over 6" and making the stealers movement problematic.
> 
> IM(experienced)O, if you have a bunch of small vehicles that have relentless and weight of fire. Moving them all six inches and blowing the ever-loving-f*ck out of the stealers would work much better. When you have nine shots a turn that ignore FNP, everything twinlinked, and if you move, 44 other shots that are twinlinked, you have the ability to deal with those stealers and still take care of the rest of the army. Two groups would be harder, but maybe still possible. That level of point investment might weaken the rest of the army though. I am not sure how viable it would be in an all comers list.
> 
> A much better strategy would use Nids ranged weapons to open up or wreak those vehicles. Then, once things start falling out, use a combination of flyers, beasts, and fleet to close quickly.
> 
> As the list stands, until things start to die, it has an very clear advantage in its 48" bubble. (ie 24' range around each unit.) Before you introduce any units to that fire power, you want to soften it up. So, if you put 20 genestealers in 18 inches of these guys, your are directly playing to the advantage that a Necron player has.
> 
> How to deal with the rest of the Tyranid army I'll leave up to you.
> 
> Personal note:
> I can't believe I got pulled back into this thread, but the level of righteous ignorance was getting to me. I'm definately out now.


I won't even respond to that other than to say that between you both, the level of condescending BS has been astronomical.


----------



## Lord Azune

Help us Oddjob Kenobi, you're our only hope.  I have a question for Oddjob and Aramoro. What would you two recommend against Necrons hiding in cover. Init 1 kinda screws us 'nids over.


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## Katie Drake

Lord Azune said:


> Help us Oddjob Kenobi, you're our only hope.  I have a question for Oddjob and Aramoro. What would you two recommend against Necrons hiding in cover. Init 1 kinda screws us 'nids over.


I know you didn't ask me but I figured I could be moderately useful here.

Answer: You hope Move Through Cover grants assault grenades in 6th edition.


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## lokis222

Katie Drake said:


> I know you didn't ask me but I figured I could be moderately useful here.
> 
> Answer: You hope Move Through Cover grants assault grenades in 6th edition.


:goodpost: 

The other option is don't assault into cover. I know you think the new nids codex is subpar, but given the three win conditions, Nids can play the objectives and due to Necron's limited range fairly safely ignore and work around that position.

Necron dex has few options beyond 24 inches.


----------



## Katie Drake

lokis222 said:


> :goodpost:
> 
> The other option is don't assault into cover. I know you think the new nids codex is subpar, but given the three win conditions, Nids can play the objectives and due to Necron's limited range fairly safely ignore and work around that position.


Depends on the mission and objective placement, but yeah. If it's multiple objectives and the Necrons are dug in on over half of them you end up needing to assault into cover to win the game unless you go for a risky last minute contest.


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## Lord Azune

Believe me, I do hope that it grants it, it makes no sense for Nids to be screwed by cover to the degree that they are.


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## lokis222

Katie Drake said:


> Depends on the mission and objective placement, but yeah. If it's multiple objectives and the Necrons are dug in on over half of them you end up needing to assault into cover to win the game unless you go for a risky last minute contest.


I do that sometimes. My last game was against a foot slogging horde of orks. Huge units of 30 boys. I had no chance in CC, so I drew the guy out and whittled him apart. Turn four, walked my biovores into range of his unit camping the objective. Forced a leadership test and got him to run away on the last turn of the game. Got lucky though. I usually try to contest those sort of objectives with non-scoring armor units and keep my troops on the ones I want. 

Actually, should have thought of this, because of Necron str 8 spam, warriors are a bad choice, but you can use gargoyles to screen a tyrant with bone swords and lash whips who has tyrant guard. I always run one of these guys with a heavy weapon. I have used him for late game objective contesting on many occasions. 

Also, a snotpod with 20 devilguants. Don't take hive commander and hope it doesn't come early. Late game/Mid game, it drops and those 60 shots often clear an objective. They are also scoring. They also cause a -1 if the unit has to take a ld test. Don't count on it, but it is nice:grin: 

Don't use this often because it is hit or miss, but a deathleaper can do a late game grab and because of its ability, frig up psychers. 

Also, even if I win first turn, I usually let the other guy go first. That way, my objective grabs could end the game on my turn rather than letting them take a round of shooting/assault.

Even if they are in cover though, a four plus save isn't that great against biovores. You get lucky and you are hitting 15 of them. I usually get, if I don't miss, at least 10 on a normal unit. 

There are a number of tools in the tyranid toolbox to deal with that sort of situation. Just have to have a well balanced army. A combination of ranged and CC.


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## Katie Drake

lokis222 said:


> There are a number of tools in the tyranid toolbox to deal with that sort of situation. Just have to have a well balanced army. A combination of ranged and CC.


Of course, there definitely are tools. It's just that some of them I wouldn't consider adding into a tournament army (Deathleaper is one example, Biovores are another) due to them taking away value FOC slots (and points to a lesser extent) that could arguably be better used on other things. I don't really want to get into a debate about which Tyranid units are good right now though.


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## lokis222

Katie Drake said:


> Of course, there definitely are tools. It's just that some of them I wouldn't consider adding into a tournament army (Deathleaper is one example, Biovores are another) due to them taking away value FOC slots (and points to a lesser extent) that could arguably be better used on other things. I don't really want to get into a debate about which Tyranid units are good right now though.


Fair enough. I don't use deathleapers. I am fond of my biovores though. I think the answer to assaulting into cover though is pretty much, don't. Or, bring lash whips if you do.


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## Aramoro

Lord Azune said:


> Help us Oddjob Kenobi, you're our only hope.  I have a question for Oddjob and Aramoro. What would you two recommend against Necrons hiding in cover. Init 1 kinda screws us 'nids over.


Just assault them anyway probably, yeah the Int 1 is not in your favour, say you have 8 Stealers assaulting 10 Warriors in cover, chances are they'll kill 1 - 2 Stealers. The 6 Stealers will then kill around 4 Warriors so they either Flee and you sweep them or your locked in combat for your opponents turn. In this case being locked in combat is actually the best choice, assuming you don't whiff it you'll win combat in their turn and be free to do whatever. You can not assault into cover but then you just stand around looking like a twat, take it on the chin. It's a numbers games after all.


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## OddJob

Aramoro said:


> take it on the chin


What he said.

There are relatively few scenarios where the stealers would thing twice about just assaulting into cover. If in doubt make sure you have FNP and leave a trail back to synapse. Particularly if, like me, you take big old units.

It's a much bigger deal for gants.


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## Tomatoes

darklove said:


> Apart from the fact that the Destroyer Lord is too tough to be IDed by the SwarmLord.


will still insta kills because of 4 bonesabers.....toughness doesnt matter


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## Iron Angel

Target saturation. Take huge amounts of weaker units and just swamp him.


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## Irmgaal

lokis222 said:


> That's the thing. The right list won't worry about the cover. Necrons have limited range. So, you build lists around exploiting this. You have three possible win conditions. Two of which are objective.
> 
> Harpy with venom cannons and tyrannofex's to go for the vehicles at range. Biovores and warriors with stranglehorn to take potshots at range. Unless the Necron player is using Phaeron, he can't move and shoot worth a damn. So, let him sit in cover. Who cares. The goal isn't to kill, it is to win. Priority targets are doomsday barges. Once they are gone, heavy destroyers and any other range 36 weapons.
> 
> Punish the player for using cover. Exploit the weaknesses. Got scarabs, blast templates.
> 
> Got wraiths, shoot them with hive guard.
> 
> Hit the monolith with MCs.
> 
> Shoot the annihilation barge with range 48/36 anti-tank.
> 
> Every vehicle is open top.
> 
> Stay outside of the range and make him move.
> 
> Play the objectives.
> 
> In killpoints, take out the vehicles.
> 
> In objectives, camp them.
> 
> Nids have guns, use them.
> 
> With Grey Knights, Dark Eldar, Guard, and now Necrons, if we play the mindless beast, we get pawned.
> 
> Control the board and control the movement. It works.
> 
> Here is my current all comers, and it has been working.
> 
> HQ
> 
> Tervigon
> TS
> AG
> Clusterspines
> Onslaught
> 
> Hive Tyrant
> Venom Cannon
> Hive Guard
> 
> Elites
> 
> Hive Guard 3
> 
> Hive Guard 3
> 
> Zoanthropes 2
> 
> Troops
> 
> 20 Termaguants
> Devourers
> 
> 14 Termagants
> 
> Tervigon
> TS
> AG
> Clusterspines
> Catalyst
> 
> Heavy
> 
> Tyrannofex
> Rupture Cannon
> 
> Tyrannofex
> Rupture Cannon
> 
> Biovores 3
> 
> This is about 2000pts.
> 
> The basic idea is don't play their game. They want you to charge. Currently, Nids are at a disadvantage if they do. When move through cover gives us assault grenades, then things will be different, but for now, we got to suck it up.
> 
> You have 4 48 inch shots that will do beautiful things to open-topped AV 13.
> 
> You have 3 48 inch large blast templates that cause pinning.
> 
> You have one 36 inch blast that can pop an AV 13 if you are lucky or instant kill destroyers, wraiths, scarabs, etc
> 
> Let them come to you. They move, they don't shot 24 inches.
> 
> At 24 inches, you have 12 st 8 shots that you don't need LOS for. Abuse that.
> 
> At 24 inches you have 2 AP3 blasts.
> 
> At 18 inches you have 2 large blast.
> 
> At 18 inches you have 60 shots that if the unit shot at has to take a leadership test, it does so at -1.
> 
> And you make your own cover.



I just wanted to follow-up on this. I ended-up using Loki's list and used his tactic against my Necron opponent. Although his list had Doomsday Barges, Heavy destroyers, Spyder Walkers, deathmarks in D/S, a Lord with Wraiths... I used his list and outranged him, kited him for 5 turns, and by the time I came in range of his 24 inch guns, he had lost most of his power and his will to fight went away as well. Especially when all the Termagaunts I spawned in the background waved suddenly forward, supported by the Hive Guards safely still out of LOS.

I don't take away anything from the Genestealers option, but honestly I think that NOT playing the Necron's game gave wonderful results. Thanks for the eye opener Loki.


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## Ragewind

Protip: Use the Doom of Malanti, the Necron's don't carry any weapons on their infantry that can insta kill him, making him basically unkillable by the Necron Army. Since wounds can now go above 10 (see rulebook) he will walk through the army by himself.

Only some vehicles can hope to instagib him so watch for those with STR 8+ weapons and focus those down with the rest of the army. Remember his ability works each round while he is in CC, meaning he cannot even bog you down.

Of course if you replace the default power and try for Iron Arm then not even a vehicle can stop him.


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## DivineEdge

Of course, everything is LD 10, and since the average roll on 3d6 in 10.5, he won't be as good.


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## Ragewind

DivineEdge said:


> Of course, everything is LD 10, and since the average roll on 3d6 in 10.5, he won't be as good.


You know that, and I know that. However in practice its entirely different, Necrons don't (normally) carry Melta and cannot handle The Doom on average, and The Doom's kit brings everything you need to handle the necrons as well. You can't go wrong dropping 120ish points on him to drop in on a flank and start sucking some souls.


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## DivineEdge

Yeah I know you know I know. Speaking, of which, have you read the Spy who Came in from the Cold? Cause this is starting to sound like that. 

But the doom is always awesome, just less so in this particular case. He will still suck brains, and kill stuff. They will have trouble handling him with not as many bang pow shots, but stalkers and arks exist (some people probably get desperate enough to put a large blast on him). But if someone brings an air force or another very small/spreadout/reserves based army, he will also get less chances to kill. 

But like you said, for 130 points and all that upside, still worth it.


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## darklove

Ragewind said:


> Protip: Use the Doom of Malanti, the Necron's don't carry any weapons on their infantry that can insta kill him, making him basically unkillable by the Necron Army. Since wounds can now go above 10 (see rulebook) he will walk through the army by himself.
> 
> Only some vehicles can hope to instagib him so watch for those with STR 8+ weapons and focus those down with the rest of the army. Remember his ability works each round while he is in CC, meaning he cannot even bog you down.
> 
> Of course if you replace the default power and try for Iron Arm then not even a vehicle can stop him.


There is a lot that can instant death the Doom.

Infantry that cause Instant Death to the Doom:

Cryptek with Eldrich Lance (S8 AP2) - can have up to 10 in an army.
Heavy Destroyer with Heavy Gauss Cannon (S9 AP2) - can have up to 9 in an army.
Necron Overlords with Tachyon Arrow (S10 AP1) - can have up to 2 in an army.

'Some' vehicles that can 'instagib' the Doom:
Doom Scythe Death Ray (S10 AP1) - up to 3 in an army.
Doomsday Ark Doomsday Cannon (S9 AP1) - up to 3 in an army.
Triarch Stalker Heat Ray (S8 AP2) - up to 3 in an army.
Monolith Particle Whip (S8 AP3) - up to 3 in an army.
Monolith Portal of Exile (removed as a casualty) - up to 3 in an army.

Then there is also the C'tan Transdimensional Thunderbolt (S9 AP2) - up to 3 of these in an army.


I think it is pretty ignorant to say that The Doom is 'unkillable' by the Necrons.


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## Ragewind

darklove said:


> There is a lot that can instant death the Doom.
> 
> Infantry that cause Instant Death to the Doom:
> 
> Cryptek with Eldrich Lance (S8 AP2) - can have up to 10 in an army.
> Heavy Destroyer with Heavy Gauss Cannon (S9 AP2) - can have up to 9 in an army.
> Necron Overlords with Tachyon Arrow (S10 AP1) - can have up to 2 in an army.
> 
> 'Some' vehicles that can 'instagib' the Doom:
> Doom Scythe Death Ray (S10 AP1) - up to 3 in an army.
> Doomsday Ark Doomsday Cannon (S9 AP1) - up to 3 in an army.
> Triarch Stalker Heat Ray (S8 AP2) - up to 3 in an army.
> Monolith Particle Whip (S8 AP3) - up to 3 in an army.
> Monolith Portal of Exile (removed as a casualty) - up to 3 in an army.
> 
> Then there is also the C'tan Transdimensional Thunderbolt (S9 AP2) - up to 3 of these in an army.
> 
> 
> I think it is pretty ignorant to say that The Doom is 'unkillable' by the Necrons.


Well lets take a look 

The Eldritch Lance is a very common item, if I had to hazzard a guess you can easily see at least 3 per army. While not every army will utilize Crypteks enough do that it is something to look at. Considering most people will place them in Night Scythes you don't have much to fear as they would need to disembark, however if your opponant is the Ghost Barge type of guy they can of course shoot from saftey. All in all unless your opponent is spamming troops or are spending on double courts you have only to deal with 3ish on average leaving you LOS blocking tactics or trying to CC or just passing your 3+ save. If you get Iron Arm, you of course can ignore the Lances.

Heavy Destroyers can indeed pose a threat but not many people take them, those that do certainly don't take 9 (thats almost 600 points by themselves) Unlike the Lance weilders above the Destroyers cannot hide in Vehicles and large blobs of troops, the Nid player (on average) has the tools to deal with a unit or two containing Heavy Destroyers, just dropping nearby the Doom can kill off the whole unit, removing that threat neatly. Now that I actually think about it DO people even take HD's anymore? Of course if you get Iron Arm you can Ignore the Heavy Destroyers.

Lords with Arrows are semi common, TBH I think most Necron players would rather take a kitted our Lord on a barge or a Destroyer lord for some wraiths. However if you do run into a Tac Arrow you can be confident in the fact you would not have to face the threat every turn. Unlike a lance that has to be dealt with until killed if they Miss, fail to wound, or you pass your save you are A-Ok afterwards. The chances of you facing more than 1 arrow are slim, and frankly if they spend 60+ points on grabbing two arrows they are taking away from the rest of the army. Again as always if you get Iron Arm who cares.

Now Death Sycthes are a very real threat, as mentioned in my previous post mostly only vehicles will have the punch to reliably threaten a Doom consistently. Really you just want CC or to pass your 3+ invul save to avoid them. Most people will run 2-3 at least so unless the rest of your army poses a large threat they will be gunning for you. You can however (assuming going second) simply deploy away from them buying anywhere from 1-3 turns while they maunoever into firing range. Again Iron Arm = Auto Win

Now on the subject of Doomsday Arks, personally I wouldn't run them as I prefer a much more mobile aspect to my army when required, however a lot of people enjoy the unit so you can easily expect to see 2 on a good day. Now because of the points cost of the Death Scythes and the Arks you generally won't see more than 4. While the Nid player has the tools to easily deal with AV 13 open topped (see Venom weapons and Rupture cannons) the Doom also can pop them easy. While you do have a 3+ to save you, mostly I wouldn't worry to much since that blast will have a hard time hitting the Doom itself. On average it only needs to scatter 2.5-3 inches to avoid hitting the doom (average roll is 7 and BS is 4 so yea..) meaning you have VERY good odds of not even having to make the save. I'd say a Ark (assuming they are not shooting the rest of the army) is a 50/50 threat while simply deploying LOS blocking tactics will nullify it completely.


The Stalkers are a very dangerous threat to the Doom simply for the fact they can hunt it down and fire Twice. Mostly the firing twice bit. Its tough to save how many of these you will on average face, if it was me I would like to run two, most people will not even run one. Basically you have LOS blocking tactics and CC to reliably protect you, but making two important saves in a row does not have favorable odds, especially if they make you do it often. As always Iron Arm doesn't care. Really though chances are you will not ever fight these, despite them being actually very awesome.

Particle Whip, yea we know these exisit but lets be honest, who runs the Monolith anymore? Its not a bad model but is simply outclassed, while relying on a paper/rock approach does not make for good list building, if you were to see more than 1 in a list it will be a very rare day. Having 3 in a enemy list dreastically changes the way the necron army will fight actually making it easier on avergae for the Nid player to win. the 24' range is a real killer though allowing the Doom to out mauncover the Tank and employ LOS blocking shenanigans.

Yes the Portal, really? Other than getting close by Deep Strike has anyone ever seen this happen>? If you have Iron Arm you have a excellent chance of making the STR test, otherwise simply deploy the Doom elbow deep into the enemy army to prevent the Monolith from being able to deploy close to you. Most people do this with the Doom anyway so its not asking for much.

Yea C'Tan do those guys even exist anymore>? The Trans Bolt is a threat but A) someone has to take a C'Tan when could could take ANYTHING ELSE, and B) this someone would have to pay the large point expenditure to take the power. Lets be honest, everyone is different and enjoy different playing style and armies, but I don't think other than maybe once you will ever seen a C'Tan with this particular setup. If I had to take a C'Tan I would take more utility powers like the Deepstrike defense and use him as counter charge.
Since the C'Tan is not immune to the Doom simply deploying him close and even assaulting is a worthwhile counter, also Iron Arm.

So what have we learned? On average you will basically only have the Lances and the Death Scythe to worry about. While I can see the more extreme lists having 4-6 Death Scythes, against a complete Flyer Force the Doom would be of limited help anyway. Against the more traditional and balanced Guass/Telsa combos the Doom the devastating. In those rare situations where the player has 1-2 units of all the above, remember spending 1+ turns firing everything he has at the Doom is a effective strategy by itself, as he could easily be spending close to 1k points to handle a 90ish point model. Leaving the rest of your army room to advance with impunity. I don't know about you but I would spend 90 points to become immune to shooting for 1+ turns.

The lower in point you go the less tools the Necron player will have to deal with the Doom making him more and more valuable. Combo with Deathleaper for lulz.
While the LD 10 can "Slow" the doom down it will not stop him, as per any army, you need to handle the doom before he gets his momentum, once he starts sucking wounds (either through his ability or through Spells) he is basically unstoppable

Also Iron Arm = Lulz aganst the entire Necron Army.


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