# Chaos, The Imperium, The Emperor.



## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

Has Chaos?

The Chaos gods are ancient primordial beings born alongside life itself, forever feeding from it, abusing it and manipulating it for their selfish delight. It is to their preference that the races of the universe cavort with war, death, mutation and perverse pleasures. This is an immutable fact, as long as they exist and the races of the universe, primarily Humanity, are corruptible they will endure.

In the Emperor the Chaos gods saw the one possible threat to their existence, the first mortal ever truly capable of bringing peace and order to a universe torn asunder by the 4 powers. So as one they schemed and they plotted and they birthed a plan which caused the Horus Heresy, an event so cataclysmic that it slowed, some would argue reversed, the progress of the Imperium across the universe.

The situation now is this. The Emperor is all but dead, a shrivelled dried up husk of a corpse sitting atop a failing throne which requires the sacrifice of thousands of psykers a day to maintain it. The Horus Heresy series has taught us that before the influence of the 4 powers the Imperium was a crusade of secular truth, an organisation bereft of the stranglehold of religion. In the aftermath of the Horus Heresy humanity failed, it turned back to that which it had been elevated from, it turned to religion. The Imperium, forever looking to the Emperor could look nowhere else and after his demise they continued to look to him. Now the worlds of humanity are in turmoil, war is forever at hand, death and disease are rife, the curse of the psyker and mutant is consistently rising, cults to dark and sick pleasures are evident across the social hierarchy throughout the worlds of the Imperium.

My question is this, with the death of the Emperor, with the schism of his Legions Astartes, with the internal conflict of the Mechanicum, has Chaos won? They exist for the very things that right across the universe are happening incessantly. They snuffed the brief shining light of the Emperor out as soon as he had begun to bring about the dismantling of the very things that the 4 powers need to exist.

You could even argue that the Emperor fights on, he moderates the Astronomican, he gives gifts to those who are worthy. But does he moderate the Astronomican? The leash that ties all ships to its secure bosom was in effect prior to the Emperors incarceration to the throne, what powered it then? Are the gifts he gives really given by him? Or are they simply latent psykers exerting their powers under the guise of the Emperors gifts, whether they believe they are his will or not?

Discuss.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I heard something about how the fallen dark angels having a sword that will be used to either be handed or kill the emperor. No matter what, it will cause a sort of rebirth of the emperor and he will arise stronger than ever.
I just got done reading "Daemon World" and i was completly awed by this ancient Chaos legend comming rogue and hating chaos. His name was Arguleon Veq. It just seems interesting that such an individual would not force himself but instead kind of grow tiresome and hate chaos with finding the truth. hahahaha. it only took him like forever to realize it. But still. If the truth about chaos were to be revealed to its followers, it would almost destroy chaos. There is already discontent with between the chaos gods, if there could be discontent grown between the gods and the followers that would extremly turn the tides.


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> I heard something about how the fallen dark angels having a sword that will be used to either be handed or kill the emperor. No matter what, it will cause a sort of rebirth of the emperor and he will arise stronger than ever.
> I just got done reading "Daemon World" and i was completly awed by this ancient Chaos legend comming rogue and hating chaos. His name was Arguleon Veq. It just seems interesting that such an individual would not force himself but instead kind of grow tiresome and hate chaos with finding the truth. hahahaha. it only took him like forever to realize it. But still. If the truth about chaos were to be revealed to its followers, it would almost destroy chaos. There is already discontent with between the chaos gods, if there could be discontent grown between the gods and the followers that would extremly turn the tides.


Some interesting information there, isn't it supposed to be Cypher? I'm not sure I buy into all this rebirth stuff, it's just not plausible in my mind, even with warp magicks.

By the way, if you're going to quote me in your signature you could at least attribute it to me!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Digg40k said:


> Some interesting information there, isn't it supposed to be Cypher? I'm not sure I buy into all this rebirth stuff, it's just not plausible in my mind, even with warp magicks.
> 
> By the way, if you're going to quote me in your signature you could at least attribute it to me!


I agree, im not buying in to all this "The Emperor will return" pish posh! My reasoning is that the Shamans that created the Emperor were able to reincarnate; When they died, there souls were released into the warp and drifted around until a new body was found - The only reason this was possible was because the warp was a calm and tranquil place (the Warp Gods hadn't gained consciousness at this point) 

Now its obviously plausable that the Emperor would have inherited this ability from the shamans. However now that the Warp is more like a raging inferno rather than a peaceful, tranquil place it is not possible for him to reincarnate as his soul would just be lost to Chaos. (infact this was the reason why the shamans created the Emperor, because they foresaw the Warp would become chaotic and therefore knew they wouldn't be able to reincarnate and therefore guide humanity forever, thus they created the Emperor)

The Fact that hes an amazingly powerful Psyker has nothing to do with it. Ok being an amazing psyker gives him a strong warp presence, but this can be snuffed out just by killing him. The only reason he is still able to hold the Imperium together (via his tarot and the Astronomican) is because his physical corpse is acting as his souls prison, being kept active by the Golden Throne. 

The Emperor himself knew he would never rise again from the Golden Throne. Quote from Horus Heresy Collected Visions:
"The Emperor, still frail and weak, spoke, 'Poor, brave Malcador the Hero. He reserved a fragment of his strength for me. It gives me a little time to pass final orders to you all. If you do as i ask then i shall not wholly die, my spirit at least will survive. My injuries are severe, more so than i had hoped but less so than i feared. My psychic powers will return to me in time but my body will never heal. I shall never walk amongst you again. I am now bound to this machine for all time. My faithful bodyguard and attendants know what is required. You must do as they request!"

Even the Cabal prophecy from the HH book: Legion, states that if the Emperor prevailed over Horus in the Horus Heresy, Chaos would win and the realm of chaos would engulf the galaxy, its simply a matter of time. The Emperor will NOT rise again.

The Chaos Gods engineered the wars of the Horus Heresy by corrupting Horus and therefore dooming the Emperor. He is no longer a threat to the Warp Gods, if he were they would have destroyed him by now. Simple, brute fact! :good: (This mini-article on the Great Game may help!)

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There is no way Cypher would be able to 'revive' the Emperor, the reason he is heading to Terra is to either kill the Emperor, or to seek forgiveness. Not to revive him.



Digg40k said:


> You could even argue that the Emperor fights on, he moderates the Astronomican, he gives gifts to those who are worthy. But does he moderate the Astronomican? The leash that ties all ships to its secure bosom was in effect prior to the Emperors incarceration to the throne, what powered it then? Are the gifts he gives really given by him? Or are they simply latent psykers exerting their powers under the guise of the Emperors gifts, whether they believe they are his will or not?


This quote may explain how the Astronomican worked prior to the ascension.

"The Emperor of Mankind used thousands of psykers to man the Astronomican when he was participating in the Great Crusade. He, however, did not sacrifice them; rather they were trained to maintain it themselves, but with immense physical stresses, the Emperor merely created the process for this. However, when the Librariums and the Astronimican was attacked in the Horus Heresy's climax, the secrets of this were lost, and the Imperium was forced to sacrifice thousands of psykers as sustenance for the now Ascended God-Emperor."


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

i dont really know about that emperor crap either. Im not going to judge the fluff on that. But its suppose to be the Imperiums last hope. as so to say, thats why it is said that the chaos gods did not want to kill him. but its all real confusing


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## Col. Schafer (Apr 15, 2008)

I think its plausable that he could rencarnate (star child) on the otherhand, a better way IMO would be for all imperials to be athiests, and not believe in the chaos gods. The 4 would loose a lot of their power, and then the imprium might have a chance of winning an all out war within the eye of terror to destroy chaos once and for all. 

This is mearly wishfull thinking and there is probably fluff I dont know about that shoots this down, so I will just say that I dont expect either. (besides, why would GW end such a profeitable conflict?)


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## blood 4 the blood god (Feb 22, 2009)

Hey just a question How do you think they will end the story like if gw goes bankrupt?


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## Gul Torgo (Mar 31, 2008)

Col. Schafer said:


> I think its plausable that he could rencarnate (star child) on the otherhand, a better way IMO would be for all imperials to be athiests, and not believe in the chaos gods. The 4 would loose a lot of their power, and then the imprium might have a chance of winning an all out war within the eye of terror to destroy chaos once and for all.


Belief has nothing to do with it. Your bloodlust is what feeds Khorne, regardless of whether you believe in a god or not.


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

blood 4 the blood god said:


> Hey just a question How do you think they will end the story like if gw goes bankrupt?


you kiddin, with the amount there charging us!

i dont think gw will ever end the story, it would just interfer with their profit margins too much for them to do it. The Endtimes refer to the return of the Primarchs and if this is so then gw will need to do better for there rules then what they released a few months back in a WD. I think that at most we might see a shift into the 42nd mellenium although this might be a bit weird with copyrights and the whole 'Warhammer 40,000' thing


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## Epic Fail (Jun 23, 2008)

In the fluff for the ill fated Inquisitor game (the one with the 54mm minis) there is reference to the schism between 2 factions of the inquisition, 1 believes it's better to sustain the emperor and the imperium in its current state; the other that it's better to kill the emperor and guide his soul back to a suitable vessel.

Here, I found an extract from the Inquisitor LRB:

A single candle guttered on an ornate silver stick in the centre of the room, throwing a yellowish, fitful light over the faces of the cowled figures stood in the dusty chamber.
“The Golden Throne works,” one said, his voice aged and cracked. “The Emperor’s life
can be sustained indefinitely.”
“His soul lives on?” another inquired, his long, sharp nose protruding from under the lip of his hood. “It is not an empty husk?”
“It is not,” the first confirmed. “The Emperor has ascended to the next plane, but the link ’twixt body and spirit remains strong.”
“Then it can be brought back,” suggested the third, a young woman whose flowing white hair spilled from her hood and down
to her waist. “The Emperor need not suffer this hideous eternal life in death.”
“We cannot risk such a thing!” the first hissed. “What if the spiritual link were severed? What if the person brought back was not the man we once knew? Changed? News of the Emperor’s… ascension is already widespread. He is being revered as a god already on a hundred worlds. In this time of rebuilding, we need a symbol. The Emperor has shown us the way. Anyway, who would believe the Emperor had returned so soon? It will cause a civil war more devastating than that of the fool Horus, and even now we have yet to start counting the cost of that. No, better that this knowledge remains hidden. When we pass on to join the Emperor, it will die with us.”
“You cannot deny Mankind the Emperor,” a fourth voice, deep and slow, stated firmly. “He and the empire he has built are
Mankind’s only chance of survival.”
The woman and the deep-voiced man both withdrew into the shadows and a moment later the door creaked open, a chill draught causing the candle flame to flit wildly.
“Moriana, Promeus, wait!” the first man called out, but the door slammed shut in answer.
“We cannot let them do this,” the hawknosed man decided.
“No, we cannot,” the first agreed. “We must act quickly, get organised and claim the initiative.”
“It shall be done,” the other concurred.

This obviously took place shortly after the HH, and the cover up clearly worked. It's debatable whether anyone knows about this anymore?


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## HorusReborn (Nov 19, 2008)

ooh I really dig that bit from Inquisitor, what a great game! The Emperor is dead in my opinion. There is no emperor, but an IMAGE of an emperor for the masses to continue to throw themselves to the endless slaughter that comes their way, the toil in the hives and the general all around lack of rights. Propaganda is key in the 41st millennium, and it clearly works for all planets that follow this ideal. He died just like Horus died, the idea he survived was long snuffed out but the idea kept on. That's my theory anyway. The Primarchs are gone and wont come back. You can't turn the followers of the Chaos Gods from anything as their power is clearly evident in all things, War, Mutations, Strength etc. I'm the kind of guy that wants to see the proof... and well the gods bring it! Again, the Imperium is built on the lie that the Emperor is there to protect and save humanity from all it's woes, the Propaganda machine brings this to light for all people. Faith is stong, but when the scales of blindness are lifted they'll see that they are but slaves to a few bastards on Terra... their lives suck balls, and dying is the only peace they'll ever get!


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## Zondarian (Nov 17, 2007)

Before the Emperor sat on the Golden Throne it was Macador de Siglette who was sat on it, so that is why it worked back then. And I like to think that they have won, the Imperium has been made into a breeding ground for new chaos warriors.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Zondarian said:


> Before the Emperor sat on the Golden Throne it was Macador de Siglette who was sat on it, so that is why it worked back then.


That is why what worked back then?!



HorusReborn said:


> The Emperor is dead in my opinion. There is no emperor, but an IMAGE of an emperor for the masses
> 
> The Primarchs are gone and wont come back.
> 
> ...


-Firstly, yes the Emperor is dead, but his soul still lingers, anchored in his corpse. The Emperors existence is one of constant, eternal pain, as he struggles to keep the Imperium binded together (through his Tarot and the Astronomican). Destroy his withered corpse, and his soul will also die.

-The Primarchs are gone and wont back indeed :good: the chances of their survival is next to none.

-It isn't a lie that the 'Emperor protects' because he does. His spirit is the only force holding back the tide of Chaos that threatens to engulf Humanity. His Spirit binds the Imperium together, without him (even though he is just a corpse) Humanity would fall to Chaos.

-The High Lords of Terra are supposed to interpret the Emperors will, but more often they just use there power to their own ends. The petty, weak High Lords are not suitable to rule a vast empire created by Giants and Heroes.



Col. Schafer said:


> I think its plausable that he could rencarnate (star child) on the otherhand, a better way IMO would be for all imperials to be athiests, and not believe in the chaos gods. The 4 would loose a lot of their power, and then the imprium might have a chance of winning an all out war within the eye of terror to destroy chaos once and for all.


As has been said, belief in the Chaos Gods does not sustain them. It is the thoughts, actions and emotions of all mortals which feed, empower and sustain the Great Warp Powers. For example simply by hoping for a better life (and therefore change) will feed Tzeentch. Feeling Anger and Hatred will feed Khorne. Belief has nothing to do with it. 

By entering the eye of terror, the Imperials will be dooming the vast majority of those sent into the eye to insanity. and even if they did manage to do some damage to the Chaos forces within the Great Eye, how would this damage the Warp Gods? the Warp Gods reside in the Warp, not in the Eye. The only way the Warp Gods can be destroyed is by Killing ALL Mortals, there is no conventional way of killing a Chaos Gods, as long as one mortal tells a lie Tzeentch will exist. As long as one mortal feels anger for his enemies Khorne will exist. As long as one mortal fears death Nurgle will exist. As long as one mortal takes pleasure in anything Slaanesh will endure. 



Epic Fail said:


> In the fluff for the ill fated Inquisitor game (the one with the 54mm minis) there is reference to the schism between 2 factions of the inquisition, 1 believes it's better to sustain the emperor and the imperium in its current state; the other that it's better to kill the emperor and guide his soul back to a suitable vessel.


This is a mere theory dreamed up by a mortal, there is no truth in it. The Emperor is dead, its simply a matter of time before the Realm of Chaos engulfs the Galaxy. 

(here is a link of the different theories/philosophies of the Inquisition. :good


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

he cares not from were the blood flows just as long as it...oh wait wrong entity!


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

I dissagree with Child of the emperor ( HERETIC! ).

First off, if the universe was engulfed by the chaos gods, then there WOULD be no more people to give them power, and they would fade again. As such, the 'optimal' state that the chaos gods 'want', is to have a large empire torn between conflicts and strife, where misery and death reign, but do not ultimately destroy it.

And while the emperor's body might be dead, his soul still exists. His 'threat' might be diminished, however, it still is there. And rising. Not directly as a beacon of reason and such, but as a god. Propaganda might have made him a god, however, the belief in that by untold billions has MADE him into a god. And that power is still rising.
A very good example of this is the militant arm of the ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle.
They are nearly incorruptible, because of their faith in Him, and through their faith, they unleash his power into the world. ( Acts of Faith )
Their powers are clearly supernatural, but do not originate from any psychic power or warp spawned entities. ( And as such, they don't count as psychic powers. In fact SoBs are partially immune to psychic powers. Force weapons and the like are just powerweapons wielded against them, and any psychic power directed at them is nullified on a 5+ )
The only origin their power can have is exactly what they claim it's from. The Emperor.

I think once the golden throne fails ( which it will eventually ), the Emperor's soul will indeed be set free, but the faith of those untold billions will directly sustain him. Maybe even unleashing something like the birth of Slaanesh forming the eye of terror, but instead of divine origin.

But those are just the musings of a devout follower of the God-Emperor.


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## HorusReborn (Nov 19, 2008)

The Emperor is dead, there is no soul lingering. Why else would they need to sacrifice millions of psykers to keep things going? Their raw energy fills that hole the emperor left when he died. It's a myth, a lie and great fluff! LOL Look at the Soul Drinkers. They are loyal to the Emperor, but not the Imperium. They saw through the lies of men, but it is engrained in their genome to remain loyal it seems.


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

Inquisitor Einar said:


> First off, if the universe was engulfed by the chaos gods, then there WOULD be no more people to give them power, and they would fade again. As such, the 'optimal' state that the chaos gods 'want', is to have a large empire torn between conflicts and strife, where misery and death reign, but do not ultimately destroy it.


Right. The chaos gods can't engulf the material world, persay, but can influence it through their minions and the dreams of mortals. Emotions are what sustain them. Take away emotions (by exterminating all sentient life), and chaos falls. 



Inquisitor Einar said:


> Their powers are clearly supernatural, but do not originate from any psychic power or warp spawned entities. ( And as such, they don't count as psychic powers. In fact SoBs are partially immune to psychic powers. Force weapons and the like are just powerweapons wielded against them, and any psychic power directed at them is nullified on a 5+ )
> The only origin their power can have is exactly what they claim it's from. The Emperor.


Be careful with these sorts of leaps. Because, uh, if we're going with rules justifying fluff (really, it needs to be the other way around, in most cases), then Chaos Daemons get their power from belief in themselves--remember, Chaos Daemons view force weapons as just another powerweapon, their abilities aren't psychic powers, they are abilities, and there are daemons that are all but immune to psychic powers as well (some Khorne daemons).
:biggrin:




Inquisitor Einar said:


> I think once the golden throne fails ( which it will eventually ), the Emperor's soul will indeed be set free, but the faith of those untold billions will directly sustain him. Maybe even unleashing something like the birth of Slaanesh forming the eye of terror, but instead of divine origin.
> 
> But those are just the musings of a devout follower of the God-Emperor.


See, I'm not sure which way to go on it. I've heard both the star child theory, as well as the entropy theory (that he, like everything else, will decay and cease to exist).

On one hand, we have the idea that souls that depart the body are cast into the warp, where they linger briefly before fading away. On the other, the emperor is a nasty psycher, comprised of the souls of 100 nasty psychers. 

I do feel that there is obviously, "something," left lingering on the Azure Porta Pot, but whether or not that, "something," is a god, I'm not sure I buy into. I think things are best left where they are--the emperor is a piece of the imperial infrastructure, but more like a lighthouse (Astronomicon) than anything, IMHO.


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## blood 4 the blood god (Feb 22, 2009)

No the emperor is a god he has just about as much followers believers and minions that do his work and die graciously for him. He is also sacrificed 1000 psykers a day willingly unlike the disobeidient servants of chaos. The emperor is a god he is probably the greatest of all the chaos gods he is the god of hope. Hope leads to change , false hope leads to anger , hope leads to more pleasure. He is either controlling all the other gods or is fueling them.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

hahahahha. hes a chaos god. lol. everyones doing it for chaos. hahahaha. sorry but thats kind of ironic.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

blood 4 the blood god said:


> No the emperor is a god he has just about as much followers believers and minions that do his work and die graciously for him. He is also sacrificed 1000 psykers a day willingly unlike the disobeidient servants of chaos. The emperor is a god he is probably the greatest of all the chaos gods he is the god of hope. Hope leads to change , false hope leads to anger , hope leads to more pleasure. He is either controlling all the other gods or is fueling them.


That is rubbish, he is not a Chaos god, he is not even a warp entity, he is a powerful Pskyer thats all there is to it. And Tzeentch is the God of Hope. :good: - How can he control Chaos? Pffft - Chaos cannot be mastered, for it is Chaos.



Inquisitor Einar said:


> First off, if the universe was engulfed by the chaos gods, then there WOULD be no more people to give them power, and they would fade again. As such, the 'optimal' state that the chaos gods 'want', is to have a large empire torn between conflicts and strife, where misery and death reign, but do not ultimately destroy it.


The Chaos Gods arn't stupid - they know that Mortals sustain and power them. A galaxy engulfed by Chaos would be enslaved, not destroyed. The Galaxy is in its current state is beneficial for the Warp Powers, but enslaving the galaxy and making it chaotic would not destroy all mortals, they know mortals have to be sustained in order for them to flourish.



Inquisitor Einar said:


> And while the emperor's body might be dead, his soul still exists. His 'threat' might be diminished, however, it still is there. And rising. Not directly as a beacon of reason and such, but as a god. Propaganda might have made him a god, however, the belief in that by untold billions has MADE him into a god. And that power is still rising.
> A very good example of this is the militant arm of the ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle.


Of course his soul still exists, for that is why the Imperium still exists 

The Emperor no longer poses a threat to the Warp Gods - he is a powerful psyker and has a strong warp presence, but thats as far as it goes. 

How is his power rising exactly? :no:

Belief in a Psyker does not make him a god, one cannot simply become a warp entity, the Emperor was/is a man, men cannot become warp beings. The warp is a reflection of the material realm where thoughts, feelings and emotions take form. People feel Hope that the Emperor may rise from the Throne (Empowering Tzeentch), they feel Anger at their enemies; Xenos, and Chaotic forces (Empowering Khorne), They despair because of the horrible situation they are in (Empowering Nurgle), and take Pleasure in almost everything (feeding Slaanesh) - *The Emperor cannot become a Warp entity*, all the faith in the Emperor actually feeds the Chaos Gods (Hope etc).



Wraithian said:


> Right. The chaos gods can't engulf the material world, persay, but can influence it through their minions and the dreams of mortals. Emotions are what sustain them. Take away emotions (by exterminating all sentient life), and chaos falls.


The Chaos Gods cannot engulf the galaxy, persay (as they will always be bound to the warp), but Chaos can. The entire galaxy can become a warp/real-space overlap - similar to the Great Eye of Terror. Where the Chaos Gods hold absolute influence and power. The Great Game will be enacted on a massive scale and all will bath in the glory of the Warp k:

And as i said, Chaos will never exterminate all sentient life, merely enslave it.



Inquisitor Einar said:


> I think once the golden throne fails ( which it will eventually ), the Emperor's soul will indeed be set free, but the faith of those untold billions will directly sustain him. Maybe even unleashing something like the birth of Slaanesh forming the eye of terror, but instead of divine origin.


Faith or belief does not sustain souls, or even warp beings. Emotions, thoughts and feelings sustain Warp entities (which the Emperor isn't anyway) - Emotions and thoughts can be felt/thought through faith, but faith does not directly manifest in the Warp. Therefore only the Emotions felt by/through faith will manifest (hope goes to Tzeentch!). 

The Emperor will not/cannot become a god. He is a god only in the sense that he is worshipped ignorantly by the masses, through propoganda, and because he binds the Imperium together via his Tarot and the Astronomican. He himself knew he wasn't a god or a warp entity, he installed himself in the Golden Throne to give the Imperium a fighting chance at survival, but one that was always doomed to fail. (but was obviously worth a try! :good


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## Col. Schafer (Apr 15, 2008)

Gul Torgo said:


> Belief has nothing to do with it. Your bloodlust is what feeds Khorne, regardless of whether you believe in a god or not.


well so much for that theory. well, I gues its back to the star child then.


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> ...men cannot become warp beings.


Sure they can. They're called daemon princes. :wink: But, that is also by service to and/or the whim of....wait for it...Chaos! :biggrin:

Otherwise, well said, C-o-E.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Col. Schafer said:


> well so much for that theory. well, I gues its back to the star child then.


however, it does mention in some refrences, the most recent "Daemon World," that daemons including the gods devoted to khorne even though like death of mortal followers and blood shed they resent the releasment of their own blood "The prospect of exsanguination held a sort of cold horror for the blood god's followers and servants, as if the blood loss somehow made them unworthy for the favour of their god, who despised victims above all else."

So the trick is bleed the bastard, defeat his armies so that it turns against him
!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Wraithian said:


> Sure they can. They're called daemon princes. :wink: But, that is also by service to and/or the whim of....wait for it...Chaos! :biggrin:
> 
> Otherwise, well said, C-o-E.


Indeed, that slipped my mind! (silly me given that i just gave a lecture about Daemon Princes in this thread!!)

But yes as you said becoming a daemon-prince is a gift from a warp god.

And thanks :good:


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## blood 4 the blood god (Feb 22, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> That is rubbish, he is not a Chaos god, he is not even a warp entity, he is a powerful Pskyer thats all there is to it. And Tzeentch is the God of Hope. :good: - How can he control Chaos? Pffft - Chaos cannot be mastered, for it is Chaos.


That is the point he lost control during the Horus heresy and because he is half dead half alive his powers are split between the materium and the immaterium. When he was a mortal the warp became unrestful and spilled into the normal universe because he wasn't there anymore. He is able to keep the entire warp from spilling out into the material plane with only have his power. The emperor was a god before he was born into the material plane.


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

The four chaos gods are all powered by emotions. Hate, pleasure, hope, fear. Each one a warp being of near infinite power. It's already been said that the forces of the Imperium woudn't be able to hurt them in an all out assault on the Eye of Terror. However, how about another being of the warp, one who was created by the sacrifice of shamans. One who forged the Imperium of Man through the sacrifice of millions. One who sacrifced hismelf to defend the Imperium he, and his sons forged. He who daily, is kept barely alive by the sacrifife os thousands. He who sufferes agonising pain only equal to that of his followers defending the Imperium in his absence. If the Daemon Princes, followers of the Chaos gods, not nearly as powerful as The Emperor can become warp beings, why can the Emperors spirit, which was forged by Shamans who used to warp to return to the world, not be able to become one as well? In his death why can he not be freed and battle his enemies in earnest within the Warp? 

The Emperor is NOT a god. Nor are the "Chaos Gods" actual gods. They are beings of the warp, excedeingly powerful ones mind you. They have gained the power to pull the emotions and feelings of individuals into the warp to power them. Only the followers of Chaos call them gods. The race that Horus and the Luna Wolves( can't remember if they were the Sons of Horus yet) that first introduced Horus to the Chaos gods, said they were infinitly powerful warp beings, but never gods(I apologize for the lack of detail in this little tid bit, I leant my copy of "Horus Rising" to my friend. If someone can give a litte more detail on this fact, I would appreciate it.) Why then, if these mighty warp-beings could do it, not the Emperor...who is powerful enough to scare all 4 of these beings combined! Khorne feeds upon hate and bloodshed, Slaanesh pleasure and pain, Nurgle upon despair and disease, and Tzeentch upon hope and change. Slaanesh was infact, formed from the decadence and pleasure of the Eldar. Why then, can the sacrifice of untold trillions towards one cause, one purpose, not fuel THIS warp-being? The Emperor's career has been paved with the sacrifice of heroes and cowards. Of giants and mice. Decadence created Slaanesh, god of pleasure. Why then could selflishness not have formed The Emperor's spirit into a warp-being? The Eldar bore fruit to Slaanesh, through decaden, pleasure and selfishness, why then can the sefless acts of those who give their lives, willingly, for the Imperium, past, present and future, not bear fruit to The Emperor's spriit in a new form? 

Khorne - God of Hate, Rage, Blood, Violence, War, and Murder 
Tzeentch - God of Change, Lies, Hope, Ambition, Manipulation, Scheming and Sorcery 
Nurgle - God of Decay, Despair, Stagnation, Destruction, and Disease 
Slaanesh - God of Decadence, Excess, Pain, Pleasure and Self-Indulgence

The Emperor- God of sacrirfice, selflessness, heroism, honour and courage. 

(Please note, my later use of god for both the Emperor and the Warp Beings known as the "Chaos Gods" is simply for ease and to prevent confusion.)

Thanks to Wikipedia and Dictionary.com for the info  

Now, dispute this. I do so enjoy an intellectual debate on something I love, with people who love it as much as me.


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## blood 4 the blood god (Feb 22, 2009)

he ^ is a goddamn prophet. or an imperial saint


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

Haha. I actually had to copy and repost that...took so damn long I timed out posting it XD

Now, if someone would just argue it...XD


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## Gul Torgo (Mar 31, 2008)

The quibble I have with Atsuno11's equating the Emperor with the Chaos Gods is that I do not see the rationale for all the sacrifice, selflessness, heroism, honour and courage feeding into the Emperor's strength, as opposed to another native warp entity. Chaos gods all are the collective psychic imprint of some of the most common and primal impulses of sentient beings, so why shouldn't the emotions you described go towards making a chaos god of their own, rather than going to a mortal?

Perhaps eventually this god grows to the level of the Big 4, but why would we expect a god of selflessness to turn out well at all, considering how malevolent the gods of love and hope are?


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

If you can give me another warp entity, I would delete the post(not literally...took too damn long for that!) The Chaos gods are beings of evil, and hate. They are attributed to all the evils in excistence and I have eyt to be shown a warp-being who was good, other then the Emperor(who isn't a full fledged warp-being) However, the Shamans that became the Emperor were in a way warp-beings, atleast in death. At the time the warp was a very safe place, as the Big 4(well put, BTW) were not yet concious of themselves. So why not the Emperor, who is the joining of ALL of the spirits not be warp-being like as well. (By warp-being like I mean they excisted in the warp until they found a suitable vessal.) 

As for Hope, much evil is brought about by hope. False hope can create many evils. Loves is the same too, however none of the Chaos gods can be attributed to love, unless I'm mistaken. The actions attributed to hope itself, can be very good...but also very evil. However, a selfless act cannot be an evil one. An evil act, in essence, requires some pay off for the individual doing it. This amy seem to be false, however, I have yet to see an evil act that did not ahve some personal reason behind it. Pleasing the chaos gods, self accomplishment, etc. However, signing up for teh Imperial Gaurd, accepting a gene seed as a Marines, taking an oath as a Sister...any of these is selfless. Perhaps some believe in some self glory, but msot are doing it for the Emperor, and the Imperium. An Imperial Gaurdsmen does not stand in the face of Hive Tyrant, lasgun blazing...for his own gain. He does so knowing that he is going to die, slowing the beast down for one of his comrades. I will admit, sacrifces can be very evil...but selflessness...is nigh impossible to do for an evil end. 

The Chaos gods all represant selfishness. Hunger for pwoer, corruption, pleasure, war. Why would the one being they fear, the one who could overthrow all their plans, not be a being of selflessness? Not be a warp being, but a brong of the amterial plane, with a spirit of the Warp? Their exact opposites.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

The shaman theory of the Emperor's origins has been discarded and essentially discredited by GW.


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

Really? I never ehard that...in fact people brought it up in this thread before. That's itnresting, and messes with my theory some XD. Ah well, tis what it is to keep an open mind, find new info, analyze it, and change your opinion. However, I stand by my statement. Whether or not the shaman theory is discredited, only a being capable of entering the warp would worry the beings known as the Chaos Gods. However, I am going to look into this, thanks for the insight 

EDIT: Unless someone has a more prominent source, the only information I can find still mentions the shaman theory. Perhaps you could give me a link to where GW discredits the theory or something


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## Gul Torgo (Mar 31, 2008)

Atsuno11 said:


> If you can give me another warp entity, I would delete the post(not literally...took too damn long for that!)


Oh come now, that's the last thing I'd want! It was a great read.



> The Chaos gods are beings of evil, and hate. They are attributed to all the evils in excistence and I have eyt to be shown a warp-being who was good, other then the Emperor(who isn't a full fledged warp-being)


Though these my have been retconned, there at least were, at some point, minor chaos gods like Malal, and the god of atheism. But even if these minor gods have been stripped from the fluff there is still the example of Slaanesh. Slaanesh was not a being who people simply attributed hedonism too, he was directly birthed by it.

And the reason why there will never be a benevolent Chaos god is because GW seems to be operating under the idea that anything, even that which appears righteous, taken to extremes is dangerous. And you cannot get a more extreme version of an impulse than a god fueled by the emotions of countless sentient beings.



> However, a selfless act cannot be an evil one. An evil act, in essence, requires some pay off for the individual doing it. This amy seem to be false, however, I have yet to see an evil act that did not ahve some personal reason behind it. Pleasing the chaos gods, self accomplishment, etc. However, signing up for teh Imperial Gaurd, accepting a gene seed as a Marines, taking an oath as a Sister...any of these is selfless. Perhaps some believe in some self glory, but msot are doing it for the Emperor, and the Imperium. An Imperial Gaurdsmen does not stand in the face of Hive Tyrant, lasgun blazing...for his own gain. He does so knowing that he is going to die, slowing the beast down for one of his comrades. I will admit, sacrifces can be very evil...but selflessness...is nigh impossible to do for an evil end.


Suicide bombers. The ultimate act of self sacrifice. 

A god fueled by those imperial acts would be one of also zealotry, fanaticism and close-mindedness. It would be the pure essence of oppression and totalitarianism.


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

I disagree o nteh point about the suicide bomber being teh ultimate act of self-sacrifice, but that's not wh ywere here  

I fail to see how selflessness and fanatisism are the same thing. Chaos followers are close minded individuals, believing that they will eventually gain power, compared to the majority who don't. 

But a followers of the Emperor...knows that chances are, they're gonna die a gruesome death on a back water planet, never remembered for what they did. They don't think that if they fight for the Emperor, he's going to grant them his favor and immortality. They msot likely know "I'm signing up to go die on a planet that isn't my own, agaisnt an enemy I've never met before." Honestly, the most selfless act is to A) Become a Guardsman, as chances are very likely you will be killed before you ever get the chance to retire, if you lvie tah tlong you ever do or B) Becoming a Space Marine because you KNOW you are gonna die, after a long and bloody career, no matter how much good you may do, your dead. It's just a matter of when you die. Fanatisism and selflesness are different acts. A fanatic person THINKS their act is sefless, making it a selfish act. Their trying to be selfess. A Selfless person DOES a selfess act without realizing it, this is what makes it a selfless act. 

Selflesness is the one pure trait possible of a being, good or evil. You cannot corrupt a selfless act, because then it is no longer selfless.


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## Gul Torgo (Mar 31, 2008)

Atsuno11 said:


> I fail to see how selflessness and fanatisism are the same thing.


It's simply a question of degree. Selflessness is believing that your principles / cause are worth dying for, and fanaticism is believing that they are worth killing for. Taken to the extreme, which of course a Chaos god by nature does, we have the totalitarian impulse, so fanatical in assuring that its principles cannot be challenged that it seeks to annihilate those who are even suspected of straying from the dogma.

The fact that that is a damn good description of the Imperium is a pretty good indication of what kind of warp god would arise from 41st century man.

The noble examples you cite ignore that all these selfless acts are done in the name of a cause, otherwise it is simple suicide. A cause they were willing to die and kill for. To dominate their enemies and, if they were feeling charitable, give them a chance to join the cause, but usually just wiping out heretics, traitors, and those with the gall to not be born human.

While it could quite easily be argued that in 40k's GrimDark universe, this is the lesser of two evils, it is still evil.

Though this is fun, I'm going to have to hit the sack. Hopefully this thread is still going strong tomorrow.


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

Night bro. I'm sure it will be, I'll be coming back, atleast :grin:

Selflesness is not beleiveing that your cause is worth dying for. It's dying for a cause that doesn't benefit you in the slightest. 

A man risking his life to protect a woman being mugged on the street is selfless, and foolish. A man walking around with a gun in order to the same act is fanatical. A selfless man does good when the oppurtunity arises, a fanatical man deilbratly seeks the oppurtunities. 

A Sefless man gives all he has, asking nothing in return, when the oppurtunity arises. 

A fanatical man gives all he has, asking nothing in return, but attmepts to seek these oppurtunities. 

The differance: True seflesness comes through chance. True fanatisism comes from an individual, in essence, trying to hard to be selfless. 

In the end, it is a man's intent that divides selflesness and fanatiscism. A man who goes out on a crusade to destroy all evil is a fanatic. A man who goes on a crusade to defend billions of other from harm is selfless. 

And the being I am talking about is fueled by true selflesness and self-sacrifice. It is not beleife that one's cause is just, it's doing what must be done, whatever you believe.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Atsuno11 said:


> The four chaos gods are all powered by emotions. Hate, pleasure, hope, fear. Each one a warp being of near infinite power. It's already been said that the forces of the Imperium woudn't be able to hurt them in an all out assault on the Eye of Terror. However, how about another being of the warp, one who was created by the sacrifice of shamans. One who forged the Imperium of Man through the sacrifice of millions. One who sacrifced hismelf to defend the Imperium he, and his sons forged. He who daily, is kept barely alive by the sacrifife os thousands. He who sufferes agonising pain only equal to that of his followers defending the Imperium in his absence. If the Daemon Princes, followers of the Chaos gods, not nearly as powerful as The Emperor can become warp beings, why can the Emperors spirit, which was forged by Shamans who used to warp to return to the world, not be able to become one as well? In his death why can he not be freed and battle his enemies in earnest within the Warp?
> 
> The Emperor is NOT a god. Nor are the "Chaos Gods" actual gods. They are beings of the warp, excedeingly powerful ones mind you. They have gained the power to pull the emotions and feelings of individuals into the warp to power them. Only the followers of Chaos call them gods. The race that Horus and the Luna Wolves( can't remember if they were the Sons of Horus yet) that first introduced Horus to the Chaos gods, said they were infinitly powerful warp beings, but never gods(I apologize for the lack of detail in this little tid bit, I leant my copy of "Horus Rising" to my friend. If someone can give a litte more detail on this fact, I would appreciate it.) Why then, if these mighty warp-beings could do it, not the Emperor...who is powerful enough to scare all 4 of these beings combined! Khorne feeds upon hate and bloodshed, Slaanesh pleasure and pain, Nurgle upon despair and disease, and Tzeentch upon hope and change. Slaanesh was infact, formed from the decadence and pleasure of the Eldar. Why then, can the sacrifice of untold trillions towards one cause, one purpose, not fuel THIS warp-being? The Emperor's career has been paved with the sacrifice of heroes and cowards. Of giants and mice. Decadence created Slaanesh, god of pleasure. Why then could selflishness not have formed The Emperor's spirit into a warp-being? The Eldar bore fruit to Slaanesh, through decaden, pleasure and selfishness, why then can the sefless acts of those who give their lives, willingly, for the Imperium, past, present and future, not bear fruit to The Emperor's spriit in a new form?
> 
> ...


A very well structured and thought out argument (+rep!) - however one i don't agree with!

In order to form a conclusion about whether the Emperor could become a 'god' we need to know the nature of the warp and what is possible within it. This we cannot do, so the question is essentially meaningless! (Logical Positivism anyone?! :good

I believe that ALL emotions/feelings are covered by Warp entities, mostly by the main 4, and the remaining ones by 'lesser' Chaos gods. Honour/courage, martial pride for example can be considered 'positive' emotions but ones that are covered by Khorne. Hope could also be described as a 'positive' emotion, and one that is covered by Tzeentch, and so on. The emotions you described; Selflessness, courage, honour would not go and empower a man with a strong warp presence, they would empower a natural warp being.

Your also saying that The 'Chaos Gods' are also not actually gods - well in that case what is a god? people will have differing definitions, i think its accurate to describe them as gods simply because they are incomprehensable to mortals, and are beings of limitless power - They have the power of create 'life' (daemons) and are worshipped - in my opinion this makes them a god. In comparison to the Emperor who is/was a powerful man.



Atsuno11 said:


> The Chaos gods are beings of evil, and hate. They are attributed to all the evils in excistence and I have eyt to be shown a warp-being who was good.


The Chaos Gods in themselves cannot be described as evil. In order for someone/something to be described as evil the majority of people would agree they need 2 things:

1) Sentience
2) Free Will

The Chaos Gods have sentience (in a sense) but do not have free will. They are the embodiments of particular emotions, in effect they are those emotions. They cannot act in any other way other than what their emotions represent. For example, Khorne Cannot show Mercy, never, the concept is beyond him. Tzeentch can never stop plotting/scheming in infinite ways for he represents hope and therefore constant change. (Here is a good thread on the Bolter and Chainsword about exactly this issue - starts to get interesting at the bottom of page 2 onwards! )



Atsuno11 said:


> So why not the Emperor, who is the joining of ALL of the spirits not be warp-being like as well. (By warp-being like I mean they excisted in the warp until they found a suitable vessal.)


If that was the case, all mortals would be warp beings, as they all have a presence in the warp. When i say 'Warp-being' i mean a natural being that was created in and which dwells in the warp - Not the Emperor.



Atsuno11 said:


> Love is the same too, however none of the Chaos gods can be attributed to love, unless I'm mistaken.


Love is covered by Slaanesh - for what is love but desire by a different name?



Atsuno11 said:


> However, a selfless act cannot be an evil one. An evil act, in essence, requires some pay off for the individual doing it.


Firstly one can argue that there is no such thing as a selfless act. For every act brings about some form of emotion which pleases the being involved. To use your example of an Imperial Guardsman sacrificing himself to a Hive Tyrant for the sake of a comrade, He may be comforted in the fact that he believes his soul will go to the Emperor and be protected after his death. He may be happy that his comrade survived. He may feel a sense of pride, loyalty, honour, all brought about by his sacrifice. Also who said that if such a thing existed that a selfless good deed cannot be evil? one may sacrifice himself to further an evil cause? It is (if you believe it) selfless, but furthers an evil cause? As Gul Torgo said; Suicide Bombers pretty much sums it up!

(the Episode of Friends when Phoebe trys to prove to Joey that there is such a thing as a selfless good deed springs to mind! )



Atsuno11 said:


> EDIT: Unless someone has a more prominent source, the only information I can find still mentions the shaman theory. Perhaps you could give me a link to where GW discredits the theory or something


Yes i believe GW has discredited the Shaman fluff, it in itself is from an older edition of 40k. They have simply stated that now the Emperor's background is simply 'unknown'. (i'll try and find the source)

However i liked the Shaman theory so i still hold it in high regard :good:



Atsuno11 said:


> But a followers of the Emperor...knows that chances are, they're gonna die a gruesome death on a back water planet, never remembered for what they did. They don't think that if they fight for the Emperor, he's going to grant them his favor and immortality. They msot likely know "I'm signing up to go die on a planet that isn't my own, agaisnt an enemy I've never met before."


I disagree. Imperials believe that when they die the Emperor will protect their soul and they will reside with him. I don't believe they sign up in the knowledge they will die on some backwater planet. They sign up to fight for the Emperor, through propoganda. 

*Humans are Mortals, they are going to die, you cannot call facing this death Selflessness.* - Infact this is what Nurgle is all about.

One thing which messes up your argument: The Human Ego :good:



Atsuno11 said:


> Selflesness is not beleiveing that your cause is worth dying for. It's dying for a cause that doesn't benefit you in the slightest.


If this is the case; Selflessness does not exist!

-------------------------------

Sorry for the huge post :good:


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## blood 4 the blood god (Feb 22, 2009)

Love is covered by Slaanesh - for what is love but desire by a different name?

No no no when you love something you want care for.
Desire is to want hat certain thing and you don't care about it or its feelings.
Love is a hybrid of caring and desire.


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## Wraithian (Jul 23, 2008)

blood 4 the blood god said:


> Love is covered by Slaanesh - for what is love but desire by a different name?
> 
> No no no when you love something you want care for.
> Desire is to want hat certain thing and you don't care about it or its feelings.
> Love is a hybrid of caring and desire.


No, "covet," is more in line with your definition of, "desire."

The chaos gods themselves are not inherantly, "evil." They are the extremes in emotion. How one *acts* while experiencing those extremes in emotion, now *that* may be considered, "good," or, "evil."


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

blood 4 the blood god said:


> No no no when you love something you want care for.
> Desire is to want hat certain thing and you don't care about it or its feelings.
> Love is a hybrid of caring and desire.


Yes... You desire to care for someone

You Desire to make someone happy

You Desire to be made happy

Its all Desire. The feelings and emotions that one feels when in love still feeds Slaanesh, therefore essentially Love is covered by Slaanesh. 

Quote from Chaos Daemons codex:

"Hope, Love, Hate. All are but desire by other names. Thus it is that desire is always foremost amongst the concerns of mortals, and through their desires we shall lead them into our benighted paradise."


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Atsuno11 said:


> I disagree o nteh point about the suicide bomber being teh ultimate act of self-sacrifice, but that's not wh ywere here
> 
> I fail to see how selflessness and fanatisism are the same thing. Chaos followers are close minded individuals, believing that they will eventually gain power, compared to the majority who don't.
> 
> ...


The ultimate act of sacrifice can be suicide however, it means having everything you already have and willing to sacrifice it all to do something greater than yourself. suicide bombers do not have that benefit. There lives have been unfullfilled thats why assholes like binladen see this shit and take advantage of them


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

Removed by me


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I actually don't think were allowed to make threads like this. Besides, this is kind of stupid. This fucken warhammer, which is suppose to be fantasy and interesting. And LOL, were not suppose to be relating this shit to the real world


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## BLvice (Mar 20, 2009)

Why cant I strap bombs to Imperial Guardsmen and send them into the breach?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

no we can. Whos going to stop us?


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## BLvice (Mar 20, 2009)

Good point. I'll get the duct tape.


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> In order to form a conclusion about whether the Emperor could become a 'god' we need to know the nature of the warp and what is possible within it. This we cannot do, so the question is essentially meaningless! (Logical Positivism anyone?! :good


I would assume that in a realm where beings are fueled by the emotions of mortals on the amterial plane, where great daemons spill forth from ,that anything would be possible. This is an assumption, I will admit. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I believe that ALL emotions/feelings are covered by Warp entities, mostly by the main 4, and the remaining ones by 'lesser' Chaos gods. Honour/courage, martial pride for example can be considered 'positive' emotions but ones that are covered by Khorne. Hope could also be described as a 'positive' emotion, and one that is covered by Tzeentch, and so on. The emotions you described; Selflessness, courage, honour would not go and empower a man with a strong warp presence, they would empower a natural warp being.


But I'm not talking about a man with a strong warp presence. I know that GW has discredited the shaman theory but at the moment it's all we've got because any argument I can make relies on some history of the Emperor. So for arguments sake, lets assume the shaman theory is the truth. Their spiritis entered the warp upon death, and existed there until a suitable vessal could be found to return to the world of the living. The Emperor is the conjoining of these shamans spirits, so why then can he not do the same thing, only be much, much more powerful. I mean, is this different from what daemons do? Exist within the warp until the oppurtunity to escape presents itself? Not much different from the shamans did. Reality is, they were warp-beings, benevolent ones, but warp-ebings. They existed there until the oppurtunity arised to enter the material plane. Now with the turmoil in the warp, gods need to be summoned and do not appear all willy nilly. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Your also saying that The 'Chaos Gods' are also not actually gods - well in that case what is a god? people will have differing definitions, i think its accurate to describe them as gods simply because they are incomprehensable to mortals, and are beings of limitless power - They have the power of create 'life' (daemons) and are worshipped - in my opinion this makes them a god. In comparison to the Emperor who is/was a powerful man.


This is an argument I prefer to avoid, because by dictionary definition they are gods. But by dictionary definition, so is the Emperor. However, as far as i know, neither of them have ever created life from nothing. The primarchs were made from the Emperor's on genetics and daemons, correct me if I'm wrong, already existed in the warp and simply ened assistance to become full fledged. But neither does what our modern day gods supposedly(I am not a believer, but lets leave actual religious debates out of this please, jsut using them as an example) do. Created life from nothing. They have nothing and they forge it into life. Really, the chaos gods, nor the Emperor are gods...because they have eyt to do the one thing ONLY a god would be capable of, create life from nothing.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Chaos Gods in themselves cannot be described as evil. In order for someone/something to be described as evil the majority of people would agree they need 2 things:
> 
> 1) Sentience
> 2) Free Will
> ...


They have to have free will. Indeed, they are slaves to their own power, but then so is the Emperor. They require free will or there wouldn't be the Great Game. If Tzeentch was the only schemer, then he would dominate all four. However, he has not. If the four chaos gods were not able to plot and plan, then they would ahve no intrest in the material plane. The great crusade was a time of great hope, of great violence, of greaty change, of great indulgences(for the Space Marines took great pleasure in their work.) And we know it would never end, for our galaxy would enver end. Why then would the Chaos Gods take an intrest in the material plane if they have no free will. Things were great for them...but they wanted more. And to want, and to exert that want in a show of force, is to have free will. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> If that was the case, all mortals would be warp beings, as they all have a presence in the warp. When i say 'Warp-being' i mean a natural being that was created in and which dwells in the warp - Not the Emperor.


When a being dies, they exist in the warp for a short time before being absorbed into it. The shamans that made up the Emperor endured here, and so too is the Emperor. By definition, he IS a warp-being. Why would another wapr being not be fueled by all the selflesness in the galaxy. Where is it then? If there was a chaos being fueled by the emotions I am proposing are infact going to the Emperor, is should atleast be able to cause some rumblings. [/QUOTE]



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Love is covered by Slaanesh - for what is love but desire by a different name?


Indeed. Love, owever, is corruptble. Selflesness cannot be, or it is no longer selfless.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Firstly one can argue that there is no such thing as a selfless act. For every act brings about some form of emotion which pleases the being involved. To use your example of an Imperial Guardsman sacrificing himself to a Hive Tyrant for the sake of a comrade, He may be comforted in the fact that he believes his soul will go to the Emperor and be protected after his death. He may be happy that his comrade survived. He may feel a sense of pride, loyalty, honour, all brought about by his sacrifice. Also who said that if such a thing existed that a selfless good deed cannot be evil? one may sacrifice himself to further an evil cause? It is (if you believe it) selfless, but furthers an evil cause? As Gul Torgo said; Suicide Bombers pretty much sums it up!


Suicide bombers are a touchy subject because they go believing they are going to recieve a reward i nthe after life. As they know tehy are going to die, they know, conciosuly, at the moment of their death, they will recieve their reward. This changes the act from selfless to fanatic. He dies delibratly, keep that in mind. 

Gaurdsmen, since we've been suing this example, do not die delibratly, at least o nan individual level. They do not purposfully get themselves killed, man fears death far to much to do that. He does not go to battle intendeding to die, like the above example. He intends to fight, but is going to do his best to survive. This is why his sacrifce his selfless, because he does not intend to die, but will do it any way. The above example goes with the INTENT to die, making it fanatical, and more akin to suicide then going with the intetion of living, but being killed any way. 

Selfless is accidentl. Fanaticism is delibrate. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I disagree. Imperials believe that when they die the Emperor will protect their soul and they will reside with him. I don't believe they sign up in the knowledge they will die on some backwater planet. They sign up to fight for the Emperor, through propoganda.


Perhaps an uninformed decision, but you said it yourself "They sign up to fight for the Emperor." Not to get themselves killed and join the Emperor, some may beleive it, but very few deilibratly get themselves killed for this. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> *Humans are Mortals, they are going to die, you cannot call facing this death Selflessness.* - Infact this is what Nurgle is all about.
> 
> One thing which messes up your argument: The Human Ego :good:
> 
> If this is the case; Selflessness does not exist!


Man fears death more then anything. Joining the Gaurdsmen, putting o nthat flak vest and loading his rifle and stepping out on the the firing line, shoudler to shoulder with his comrades, is the msot selfless act possible of a being. The knowledge that today could be his last...the knowledge that he is about to face the greatest fears of all men, death, but he still does it. Does he have a prayer on his lips, I woudn't doubt it. Does he beleive that he will join the Emperor in the afterlife, pribably does. But the moment the shit hits the fan, and the two armies meet, he is thinking of one thing, and one thing only "survive." Some men feel hate, msot feel fear. But all fight to survive, and for their comrades to survive. And when he is killed, if he even has a moment to think about it, he is not thinking of how selfless he was, he's going to have an image of home, an image of his family, an image of his comrades, the beings he died for. And perhaps he does take some pride or joy i nwhat he's done. But he didn't do it delibratly, he didn't go there to die and feel that pride. He went there to fight, and kill, and die, for others. Not for himself. 

A selfless act is on accident. The guardsmen weant to fight, but ahs no intention of dieing, no want for the pay off at the end. He jsut wants to fight for the Imperium and his Emperor and then go home. If he is killed doing this, it is a selfless act, even if he feels some pride in the moment of his death. 

A fanatical act is on purpose. The suicide bomber goes with the intetntion of dieing for his country. He goes with the intent of being a big hero, of going to heaven. When he dies doing this, it is a fanatical act, because he goes with the intent of dieing and going to heaven.


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## blood 4 the blood god (Feb 22, 2009)

I think there already was a god of selflessness before the shamans before the emperor all the ways back to the beginning of sentient life. Back when our armies went to war to save there people. That god probably would be the most powerful and would have been aware of him self from along time ago. Mostly because not many people now wish to cut the head of a man and bathe in his blood. Unless the warp was created by some messed up scientist during the dark age of technology.


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

blood 4 the blood god said:


> I think there already was a god of selflessness before the shamans before the emperor all the ways back to the beginning of sentient life. Back when our armies went to war to save there people. That god probably would be the most powerful and would have been aware of him self from along time ago. Mostly because not many people now wish to cut the head of a man and bathe in his blood. Unless the warp was created by some messed up scientist during the dark age of technology.


But there isn't, that's my point. The Emperor and the shamans WERE this god, but originally in many forms. Now in one, as the Emperor. The shamans have been around forver. And the warp...has been around forever too, XD


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## Marchosias (Mar 16, 2009)

Oh i do love thses sorts of debates. Keeps the mind active and all.

First of all Atsuno11, nice theory with a well thought out argument.

Now to the main event.



Atsuno11 said:


> They have to have free will. Indeed, they are slaves to their own power, but then so is the Emperor. They require free will or there wouldn't be the Great Game. If Tzeentch was the only schemer, then he would dominate all four. However, he has not. If the four chaos gods were not able to plot and plan, then they would ahve no intrest in the material plane. The great crusade was a time of great hope, of great violence, of greaty change, of great indulgences(for the Space Marines took great pleasure in their work.) And we know it would never end, for our galaxy would enver end. Why then would the Chaos Gods take an intrest in the material plane if they have no free will. Things were great for them...but they wanted more. And to want, and to exert that want in a show of force, is to have free will.


That isn't true. These 4 great beings have grown in magnitude over time. The theory goes that the more you feed something the bigger it gets. Therefore they simply have to expand, the choice is not theirs to make. If they have conquered the immaterium where else is there left to go? They must bleed over into the material plane.



Atsuno11 said:


> Man fears death more then anything. Joining the Gaurdsmen, putting o nthat flak vest and loading his rifle and stepping out on the the firing line, shoudler to shoulder with his comrades, is the msot selfless act possible of a being. The knowledge that today could be his last...the knowledge that he is about to face the greatest fears of all men, death, but he still does it. Does he have a prayer on his lips, I woudn't doubt it. Does he beleive that he will join the Emperor in the afterlife, pribably does. But the moment the shit hits the fan, and the two armies meet, he is thinking of one thing, and one thing only "survive." Some men feel hate, msot feel fear. But all fight to survive, and for their comrades to survive. And when he is killed, if he even has a moment to think about it, he is not thinking of how selfless he was, he's going to have an image of home, an image of his family, an image of his comrades, the beings he died for. And perhaps he does take some pride or joy i nwhat he's done. But he didn't do it delibratly, he didn't go there to die and feel that pride. He went there to fight, and kill, and die, for others. Not for himself.
> 
> A selfless act is on accident. The guardsmen weant to fight, but ahs no intention of dieing, no want for the pay off at the end. He jsut wants to fight for the Imperium and his Emperor and then go home. If he is killed doing this, it is a selfless act, even if he feels some pride in the moment of his death.
> 
> A fanatical act is on purpose. The suicide bomber goes with the intetntion of dieing for his country. He goes with the intent of being a big hero, of going to heaven. When he dies doing this, it is a fanatical act, because he goes with the intent of dieing and going to heaven.


I think you've made a mistake in generalising that man fears death above all else. If this were the case then euthanasia would not exist. I personally fear insanity more than death. So it is possible to have greater fears than death. This becomes important for the next part of my argument.

Regarding the selfless act of signing up as a guardmens, this in itself is not a selfless act because their are other factors you must take into consideration. On the surface it may seem a noble deed, but if that were the case then guardsmen would have no need for honour, duty and discipline. They would simply except their fate. Now honour, duty and discipline are required to keep guardmen fighting, indeed they are essential in such times as the Grimdark of the 40k universe. Without them the Imperium would simply collapse. Simply put the fear of death must be ascended by the fear of something greater, for example the fear of letting down your unit, the tarnishing of its illustrious reputation, the fear of failure etc...

I would have to say that their could be no God of Selflessness and if such a being did exist he would be incredibly weak in the warp, and would not match up to the Emperor's current warp presence as used by the Astronomican for navigation.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Atsuno11 said:


> But I'm not talking about a man with a strong warp presence. I know that GW has discredited the shaman theory but at the moment it's all we've got because any argument I can make relies on some history of the Emperor. So for arguments sake, lets assume the shaman theory is the truth. Their spiritis entered the warp upon death, and existed there until a suitable vessal could be found to return to the world of the living. The Emperor is the conjoining of these shamans spirits, so why then can he not do the same thing, only be much, much more powerful. I mean, is this different from what daemons do? Exist within the warp until the oppurtunity to escape presents itself? Not much different from the shamans did. Reality is, they were warp-beings, benevolent ones, but warp-ebings. They existed there until the oppurtunity arised to enter the material plane. Now with the turmoil in the warp, gods need to be summoned and do not appear all willy nilly.


The main reason why this is no longer possible is because the Warp has become Chaotic. When the Shamans were able to reincarnate the warp was calm and tranquil (as the Warp Powers hadn't gained consciousness) - their souls were safe and drifted around until a suitable body was found. 

Since the Warp Powers gained consciousness the warp has become chaotic and has been compared to a 'raging storm' - souls would simply be lost and consumed by chaos, never getting the chance to reincarnate.



Atsuno11 said:


> However, as far as i know, neither of them have ever created life from nothing. The primarchs were made from the Emperor's on genetics and daemons, correct me if I'm wrong, already existed in the warp and simply ened assistance to become full fledged.


The Warp Gods create Daemons from their own essence. They extract a part of their essence ahd shape it into a daemon. Essentially then a daemon is part of the god, and share the same characteristics as the god. A Warp Power can at any time withdraw this essence into themselves, this is the only way a daemon can be 'destroyed' - so essentially daemons are part of their masters.

And obviously no the Emperor did not create life from nothing :good:

But i stand by my definition and i would describe the Warp Powers as 'Gods'.



Atsuno11 said:


> They have to have free will. Indeed, they are slaves to their own power, but then so is the Emperor. They require free will or there wouldn't be the Great Game. If Tzeentch was the only schemer, then he would dominate all four. However, he has not. If the four chaos gods were not able to plot and plan, then they would ahve no intrest in the material plane. The great crusade was a time of great hope, of great violence, of greaty change, of great indulgences(for the Space Marines took great pleasure in their work.) And we know it would never end, for our galaxy would enver end. Why then would the Chaos Gods take an intrest in the material plane if they have no free will. Things were great for them...but they wanted more. And to want, and to exert that want in a show of force, is to have free will.


Why wouldn't their be a great game if they didn't have free will?

They are not free to act as they choose, they act according to their emotions. (Khorne rages and assaults the other gods, Tzeentch plots and schemes against the other gods, Nurgle lays waste to the other gods' realms, Slaanesh takes perverse pleasure in attacking the other gods)

What would be more accurate would be to describe them as having an extremley limited free will, rather than no free will.

The Reason they have interest in the material plane is to assert their emotions on it, they have to act in accordance to their emotions, therefore Tzeentch has to plot and scheme everywhere, including the material realm, Khorne has to spill blodo everywhere including the material realm etc. 

They don't necessarily 'want' more, but they have to have more.



Atsuno11 said:


> When a being dies, they exist in the warp for a short time before being absorbed into it. The shamans that made up the Emperor endured here, and so too is the Emperor. By definition, he IS a warp-being. Why would another wapr being not be fueled by all the selflesness in the galaxy. Where is it then? If there was a chaos being fueled by the emotions I am proposing are infact going to the Emperor, is should atleast be able to cause some rumblings.


Where is your source for the idea that when a being dies they exist in the warp for a short time before being absorbed into it?

I have a quote from the Chaos Marine codex (so its canon) which explains what happens to the soul when one dies:

"When followers of Chaos die, their souls in the Warp do not fade and disappear like the spirits of others. Instead their immortal energy, their souls, are swallowed into the greatness of their gods, sustained forever, increasing the eternal power of Chaos."

And again i disagree that the Emperor is a warp being. he has a warp presence but is not a warp being. (as i said; as all mortals have warp presences does this make them a warp being? no) Warp Beings are beings who were created in and who dwell within the warp. (Not mortals, and Not the Emperor)



Atsuno11 said:


> Indeed. Love, owever, is corruptble. Selflesness cannot be, or it is no longer selfless.


As i said; If this is the case then i believe that Selflessness does not exist :good:



blood 4 the blood god said:


> I think there already was a god of selflessness before the shamans before the emperor all the ways back to the beginning of sentient life. Back when our armies went to war to save there people. That god probably would be the most powerful and would have been aware of him self from along time ago. Mostly because not many people now wish to cut the head of a man and bathe in his blood. Unless the warp was created by some messed up scientist during the dark age of technology.


Selflessness is NOT an emotion, therefore does not 'feed' anything within the Warp. Selflessness produces emotions; whether it be hope, fear, anger or whatever - these feelings go and feed the current Warp Gods. 

And the Warp is a parallel universe, which came into existence at the same time as the material realm, it was not created by a mortal!!!! :nono:



Marchosias said:


> That isn't true. These 4 great beings have grown in magnitude over time. The theory goes that the more you feed something the bigger it gets. Therefore they simply have to expand, the choice is not theirs to make. If they have conquered the immaterium where else is there left to go? They must bleed over into the material plane.


Indeed that is true, as Marchosias said - They dont have a choice about whether or not to expand and force their emotions onto others.

Khorne Has to spill blood Everywhere it is possible for him to do so

Tzeentch has to Plot and Scheme in Infinite ways (which will obviously include the material realm)

Nurgle has to corrupt and lay waste to everything it is possible to corrupt (everything)

Slaanesh has to take pleasure in infinite ways (he takes pleasure in everything; crying, killing, sex, dancing, jumping - literally everything!) - this will then obviously include exerting his influence on the material realm.


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## Marchosias (Mar 16, 2009)

Could the warp ever be quiet again? What would happen if the numbers of mankind were whittled down to such an extent that they were no longer enough collective emotion to sustain the 4 Gods current power. Would it then be possible for the Emperor's soul to remain in the warp without being absorbed until it found another host?

If this held true and the advances of chaos/nids/orks quashed mankind while losing vast proportions of their own army, then surely the Gods would lose enough power to quieten the warp. Or is the warp's stability not concerned with the strength of the Gods?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Marchosias said:


> Could the warp ever be quiet again? What would happen if the numbers of mankind were whittled down to such an extent that they were no longer enough collective emotion to sustain the 4 Gods current power. Would it then be possible for the Emperor's soul to remain in the warp without being absorbed until it found another host?
> 
> If this held true and the advances of chaos/nids/orks quashed mankind while losing vast proportions of their own army, then surely the Gods would lose enough power to quieten the warp. Or is the warp's stability not concerned with the strength of the Gods?


Good Question, Remember though that the Warp is effected by ALL mortals not just by humanity.

The Warp Gods will Always exist so long as any insignificant amount of their emotions exist. 

Quote from Chaos Daemons Codex:
"...While one mortal lies, while envy and ambition survive, Tzeentch will work his magic as the puppet master of the universe."

Im guessing that the power of the Warp Powers is the direct cause of the Warp being Chaotic, Before the Warp Gods had consciouness for example the Old Ones were able to use the Warp as humans use technology/machines because it was calm and tranquil.


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## Marchosias (Mar 16, 2009)

Could the Emperor be waiting for the near destruction of mankind and the xenos before allowing himself to die?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Marchosias said:


> Could the Emperor be waiting for the near destruction of mankind and the xenos before allowing himself to die?


A nice theory, but does he have the power to end his own life? The Golden Throne is failing and will not last much longer, Humanity and the Xenos will not be near extinction in the next hundred years, when the Throne is likely to have failed by then.


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The main reason why this is no longer possible is because the Warp has become Chaotic. When the Shamans were able to reincarnate the warp was calm and tranquil (as the Warp Powers hadn't gained consciousness) - their souls were safe and drifted around until a suitable body was found.
> 
> Since the Warp Powers gained consciousness the warp has become chaotic and has been compared to a 'raging storm' - souls would simply be lost and consumed by chaos, never getting the chance to reincarnate.


The way I see it although the warp turning chaotic made it harder for individual shamans to reincarnate (although still not impossible) the emperor is far more than one shaman he is thousands combined, a force to be reckoned with a beacon in the warp rather than flotsam and jetsam like a normal soul. That was just at his creation now he gets fed the power of a thousand psykers a day and has the power created by the "for the emperor" feelings of all humanity. 

The way I see it sure if he was still just one "shaman soul" his reincarnation ability would be questionable at the very best, however due to his combined soul power nature and his feeding of psykers and the faith of billions of imperials everywhere he is now FAR more powerful than any single soul, his power is a tangible beacon across the warp, the warp isnt chaotic enough to stop his signal getting through I dont see why it would be anything like powerful enough to stop him reincarnating. No one shaman could have done a fraction of what the emperor does, but hes far more than a shaman or a psyker hes a legion of reincarnating souls fed great power constantly.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

dtq said:


> The way I see it although the warp turning chaotic made it harder for individual shamans to reincarnate (although still not impossible) the emperor is far more than one shaman he is thousands combined, a force to be reckoned with a beacon in the warp rather than flotsam and jetsam like a normal soul. That was just at his creation now he gets fed the power of a thousand psykers a day and has the power created by the "for the emperor" feelings of all humanity.
> 
> The way I see it sure if he was still just one "shaman soul" his reincarnation ability would be questionable at the very best, however due to his combined soul power nature and his feeding of psykers and the faith of billions of imperials everywhere he is now FAR more powerful than any single soul, his power is a tangible beacon across the warp, the warp isnt chaotic enough to stop his signal getting through I dont see why it would be anything like powerful enough to stop him reincarnating. No one shaman could have done a fraction of what the emperor does, but hes far more than a shaman or a psyker hes a legion of reincarnating souls fed great power constantly.


You do realise that the thousands of psykers sacrificed are not feeding the Emperor, but merely sustaining him. 

Faith does not manifest within the warp, the emotions felt by faith are. Hope for example, People Hope that the Emperor will protect them or that he will return, this hope is infact feeding Tzeentch (as an example)

Emotions are the things which manifest within the warp, There are Warp Beings/Gods which cover ALL emotions within the warp, emotion cannot go to feed a man. 

-----

And although i like the Shaman fluff, GW has discredited it and have now merely stated that the Emperors background is 'unknown'


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> You do realise that the thousands of psykers sacrificed are not feeding the Emperor, but merely sustaining him.
> 
> Faith does not manifest within the warp, the emotions felt by faith are. Hope for example, People Hope that the Emperor will protect them or that he will return, this hope is infact feeding Tzeentch (as an example)
> 
> ...


Well Ive been in the hobby for nearly 20 years, A lot of my 40k stuff is based on the older stuff could you provide a referrence to where the shaman stuff was retracted?

Thats a thousand pysker souls a day he "consumes" that is a huge power he is "using" and wielding. 

To me the fact that sisters "acts of faith" work is evidence enough that faith grants power to the emperor. The way I see it this "emotion" is all very specifically directed, rather than being a vague cloud of one emotion settling itself slowly to one entity I see the faith in the emperor and the emotions of humanity as being directed towards the warp presence and power of the emperor, rather than taking the route of slowly coallescing instead it feeds an existing warp presence, magnifying his power and reach.

As far as I see it GW still holds the door wide open on the possibility of a reincarnating emperor, unless you can find a statement clearly saying officially that he CANT then he still can.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

dtq said:


> Well Ive been in the hobby for nearly 20 years, A lot of my 40k stuff is based on the older stuff could you provide a referrence to where the shaman stuff was retracted?
> 
> Thats a thousand pysker souls a day he "consumes" that is a huge power he is "using" and wielding.
> 
> ...


Then obviously i cannot sway you to the cause of Chaos :biggrin:

- I know ive read it, will try and find the source (i also know other members of heresy that have also read the statement of his background being 'unknown' - i will look around and see what i can find )

Personally i disagree, however neither of us can know which is right! I dont believe that faith can be absorbed/used to feed the Emperor, i simply believe the emotions felt through faith go to a particular warp being (be it one of the main 4 Chaos gods, or a minor one) 

I believe the Emperor is merely a man with a strong warp presence, in my view this does not make him anything but a very powerful Psyker. And he is using his immense psychic talents to protect humanity.. for the time being


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Then obviously i cannot sway you to the cause of Chaos :biggrin:
> 
> - I know ive read it, will try and find the source (i also know other members of heresy that have also read the statement of his background being 'unknown' - i will look around and see what i can find )
> 
> ...


I would genuinely be interested to see if they have completely renounced the possibility of the emperor reincarnating. and heck its their fiction they can do what they want . But to my mind just saying something is "unkown" is not the same thing as saying the earlier stuff is untrue, its more akin to saying the knowledge is lost to most of the imperium. The third edition of the rules still had information regarding the illuminati, so at that point even though the shaman thing might not still be mentioned its still holding the door wide open to the possibility.

As for chaos, a part of my homebrew chapter of marines recently turned renegade in the service of Slaanesh .


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

dtq said:


> I would genuinely be interested to see if they have completely renounced the possibility of the emperor reincarnating. and heck its their fiction they can do what they want . But to my mind just saying something is "unkown" is not the same thing as saying the earlier stuff is untrue, its more akin to saying the knowledge is lost to most of the imperium. The third edition of the rules still had information regarding the illuminati, so at that point even though the shaman thing might not still be mentioned its still holding the door wide open to the possibility.
> 
> As for chaos, a part of my homebrew chapter of marines recently turned renegade in the service of Slaanesh .


Firstly +rep for you - a nice debate 

By stating his background is simply 'unknown' as you said opens infinite possibilities. He could be an Old One, He could have been created as the earlier fluff stated; by the Shamans, or he could just be a normal man who unlocked the secrets and mastered genetical engineering. Anything is possible!

This also means that the future of the Emperor, Imperium and the galaxy is open to infinite possibilites (all of which are known by Tzeentch :taunt


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Firstly +rep for you - a nice debate
> 
> By stating his background is simply 'unknown' as you said opens infinite possibilities. He could be an Old One, He could have been created as the earlier fluff stated; by the Shamans, or he could just be a normal man who unlocked the secrets and mastered genetical engineering. Anything is possible!
> 
> This also means that the future of the Emperor, Imperium and the galaxy is open to infinite possibilites (all of which are known by Tzeentch :taunt


Yep it is very GW open to possibilities, and I do have to concede that just because my "beliefs" are based on past fiction and my interpretation of current texts, doesnt make it the "One Truth". I have to say I havent spent much time discussing the lore indepth Ive normally read it myself and thought about it myself, and so saw everything one way, its interesting to see another interpretation of it. An Interpretation which I have to say is every bit as valid as my own.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Indeed, i have seen things from another perspective aswell  Which is always enlightening!


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## Marchosias (Mar 16, 2009)

Since reading this thread i've been wondering why the shamans chose a man to embody their spirit in the battle against chaos. Were the shamans themselves men in the past? (assuming of course the shaman theory is correct which i'd like to think it is)

I would have thought that knowing how corruptable man is compared to the other races then the eldar would have been the prefered choice. Their knowledge of webways and their understanding of the perils of the warp would have provided some warning of the powers amassed against them. All influential beings would have been aware as to the trickery of the chaos powers (unlike Horus), and to manipulate the eldar would have been much harder. I have not forgotten that the eldar's indulgence is what triggered Slaanesh's awakening but certain sects (harlequins?) would have the discipline and understanding to avoid the failure of the shaman's plans.

Or perhaps they could create a race, much like the Cold Ones did with the Slaan and Lizardmen, to oversee such a bold undertaking.

Your thoughts on the matter?

I think this debate will take us outside the realm of established fluff but i think that we are well versed in our understanding of the background to explore the concepts it does not chart.

So i'm suggesting two things at present:

1) Either the shamans succeeded in their task of keeping chaos at bay through the constant rebirth of the embodiment of their spirit, in which case they can never fail as the power of chaos will have moments when it threatens to enslave mankind but it can never actually do so.
2) The shamans failed in their task to protect against the onslaught of chaos by selecting a being who will die and untimately fail as chaos runs rampant and enslaves mankind while the Emperor's soul is swallowed by the warp.


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

The shamans were just the warp aware "wise men" of humanity of the time. They were human themselves, They werent a seperate species. I would say they were the first "psykers", back in the days when the warp wasnt "dangerous". They didnt pick a species as their champion they picked a body for all their souls to inhabit together to pool their strength against the growing corruption of the warp.

The Emperor was just a random choice out of any human child around that time for them all to combine their souls in.

On a purely philasophical note, was it at conception they get to take the new body or at birth .


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## BLvice (Mar 20, 2009)

The shamans, as dtq said, were humans. The were open to the warp and from what I can understand were reasonably powerful. Through what powers they had they sensed the warp would become a dangerous, chaotic place that could threaten humanity. The Emperor's sole purpose was to use his vast powers to counter the chaotic forces of the warp. The only species available to them was the human race. They were not knowledgeable about the other races of the galaxy, although I'm sure they could sense there was more out there. They basically had no choice but to choose a human. Besides, the Emperor was incorruptible, the shamans obviously didn't take into account those beneath him.


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

I'd like to say i rather enjoyed the last debate. The one thing I've found with long running conversations, such as this, the lazy or uneducated get weeded out rather quick. And i would like to say that everyone's arguments were well done. 

And on the note of renegade chapters, I have plans for a Tsons army  

Now, on to what Vice said. 

This is likely the case. My guess is the shamans were likely uncorruptible themselves and so too is the Emperor. However, a trend with the Emperor I've seen is that he is good, to an extreme. He holds all the qualities we see as being represantation of good in him. And I think that he takes these to an extreme, much like a chaos god would. In this case, I am meaning the emotions related with trust. The Emperor trusted his primarchs, he trusted his sons to do what he knew was the ebst course for humanity. He took this trust to far, too the point of niavity and arrogance. HE trusted Horus to lead as he would, he trusted Horus would be the good little commander. He never believed that Horus would betray him, because he trusted him. And so this trust, lead him to arrogance and niavity. His sons would never betray him. 

Which is why I also believe he blew up on Magnus. He ordered him to end his use of psykers. He trusted him he would listen, and then Magnus broke that trust, for a good reason mind you, but he broke it. The Emperor saw then, not the warning of the Horu's betrayel, but of Magnus' in breaking his trust. This lead him into wanting justice, which he took to far as well by anleashing the Space Wolves upon the Thousand Sons. 

The shamans chsoe a human because that's all they had, and trusted in mankind to be willing to give anything in the wars with the warp. 

Ultimatly, I beleive they have succeded in defending humanity. The Emperor maybe a corpse, but he is still a champion. Man fights on, knowing(beleiving, but I'd be a heretic if I openly said that XD) that the Emperor's spirit is with them. The shamans knew that they would end soon. They chose a champion who has, ultimatly, united the majority of humanity into a battle for survival. (I am going to say that it seems likely that the shamans never expected to survive the war...but they would see too it that mankind did.)


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Marchosias said:


> Since reading this thread i've been wondering why the shamans chose a man to embody their spirit in the battle against chaos. Were the shamans themselves men in the past? (assuming of course the shaman theory is correct which i'd like to think it is)
> 
> I would have thought that knowing how corruptable man is compared to the other races then the eldar would have been the prefered choice. Their knowledge of webways and their understanding of the perils of the warp would have provided some warning of the powers amassed against them. All influential beings would have been aware as to the trickery of the chaos powers (unlike Horus), and to manipulate the eldar would have been much harder. I have not forgotten that the eldar's indulgence is what triggered Slaanesh's awakening but certain sects (harlequins?) would have the discipline and understanding to avoid the failure of the shaman's plans.
> 
> ...


As people have said, yes the Shamans are just 'wise men' throughout humanities history. They weren't necessarily 'shamans' we we understand the word, but were generally just wise men who had a connection to the warp (essentially just psykers)

The Shamans couldn't have reincarnated into an Eldar because humanity wasn't aware of any aliens at the time of the shamans! - As Dtq said i doubt they chose a vessel to combine their souls into, i guess it was just a random child who would become the Emperor, or could have even created a new one? hmm...!

And the reason i believe why the Shamans decided to combine to create the Emperor, was because they foresaw the warp becoming a chaotic place, they knew they would lose their ability to reincarnate and therefore they would no longer be around to guide humanity. Therefore they created the Immortal Emperor who would guide and protect humanity.



Atsuno11 said:


> And on the note of renegade chapters, I have plans for a Tsons army


Ah yes, another Sorcerer Brother to serve great Tzeentch :biggrin:


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

We seem to have reached a consense. The Emepror was either a random human baby who was given the pwoers of the shamans or created by the shamans. 

I beleive the same as CotE does. The shamans knew tehy would no logner be able to reincarnate, so they became the emperor. I am going to say that this was because as individuals they would not ahve the power to protect humanity, so tey created one being who they beleived could. It seems likely that, with the shaman theory, the Emperor will return OR will be capable of existing in the warp, and abttling the Chaos gods there. Perhaps enver defeating them, but if the five of tehm are locked in a battle forever...then perhaps humanity will stand a chance. Having listened to people arguments from our previous debate, I beleive now that the Chaos Gods are invivnicble, they will simply be reformed. But if they were locked in a constant battle, then their grip upon the material plane would be very weak. 



> Ah yes, another Sorcerer Brother to serve great Tzeentch


Change...is the natural way of the universe.


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## BLvice (Mar 20, 2009)

The shaman's warp essence merged into one sentient, self-aware form that wandered the warp until it eventually decided to act and become part of the material realm and begin its mission.


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

So, technicially...the Emperor could do that again? Or even last in the warp to do battle with the Chaos gods?


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## BLvice (Mar 20, 2009)

This was when the warp wasn't corrupted and was a calm place. Now, any human soul, no matter how powerful, would most likely be lost forever or taken by the powers of chaos. Thats why the emperor needs the anchor of his last living cells so he isn't lost to the warp. Who knows though, perhaps the emperor's sheer power would make him an exception to the rule.


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

It doesn't make sense then...if they knew that the warp would become such a storm that they coudn't reincarnate...what point would there be of becoming one soul, except to be able to return, or atleastexcist in the warp? The combined power of all the shamans as well as teh might that the emperor himself has...he could do it, probably. He eneds the tetehr so he can keep the lighthouse working.


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## BLvice (Mar 20, 2009)

Good point, so if he really wanted to try and end the chaos gods forever he'd have to leave the Imperium in the dark. Thats probably something hes trying to come to terms with. Or he cant die because no one if willing to kill him. Maybe we have to wait for the golden throne to fail.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Atsuno11 said:


> It doesn't make sense then...if they knew that the warp would become such a storm that they coudn't reincarnate...what point would there be of becoming one soul, except to be able to return, or atleastexcist in the warp? The combined power of all the shamans as well as teh might that the emperor himself has...he could do it, probably. He eneds the tetehr so he can keep the lighthouse working.


The Shamans weren't immortal, the Emperor was. 

They created the Emperor in the hope that he wouldn't need to reincarnate. (because he wouldn't be able to because of the chaotic nature of the warp)

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I Firmly believe that if the Emperor's soul was released fully into the warp he would be lost to the Chaos of the warp and likely consumed. 

The Emperor instructed Rogal Dorn and others to build the Golden Throne in order to preserve his physical body and to act as an anchor for his soul, so that it wasn't lost to Chaos. 

If the Emperor knew he would be able to do battle with the Chaos Gods or be reborn in the warp he would have let himself die following the Heresy. Instead he ordered his servants to tamper with the Golden Throne in order for it to preserve his body and therefore keep his soul intact, so he could continue to guide humanity through his Tarot, and enable the Imperium to continue to exist via the Astronomican.


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## Marchosias (Mar 16, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Shamans weren't immortal, the Emperor was.
> 
> They created the Emperor in the hope that he wouldn't need to reincarnate. (because he wouldn't be able to because of the chaotic nature of the warp)
> 
> ...


So by this do you mean that the Shaman have failed? This does not necessarily mean that Chaos win by default but i can't see humanity holding out for too long after the Emperor's death.

What happens to the Emperor's soul after it has been absorbed by chaos? Does it make the Chaos Gods even more powerful? Could the shamans/Emperors spirit 'corrupt' the Chaos Gods, acting like a disease that destroys them from within and we go back to year 0 again? That would be a good twist although i'm not sure of the feasability, just kicking around some ideas.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Marchosias said:


> So by this do you mean that the Shaman have failed? This does not necessarily mean that Chaos win by default but i can't see humanity holding out for too long after the Emperor's death.
> 
> What happens to the Emperor's soul after it has been absorbed by chaos? Does it make the Chaos Gods even more powerful? Could the shamans/Emperors spirit 'corrupt' the Chaos Gods, acting like a disease that destroys them from within and we go back to year 0 again? That would be a good twist although i'm not sure of the feasability, just kicking around some ideas.


No, by my understanding the Shamans havn't failed yet, simply because the Emperors soul still endures, tied to his physical corpse, which is kept 'alive' by the Golden Throne. 

The Shamans objective (in my opinion) was ultimately to continue to guide humanity and to protect mankind from the perils of the warp. They couldn't do this by existing as they did because they would eventually lose their ability to reincarnate, and therefore just die out. They poured all of there souls into a human child in order to be able to continue to guide and protect humanity (through the combined shamans; the Emperor). 

The Reason the Shamans havn't failed yet, is because the Emperors soul still endures, tied to his corpse on the throne. He continues to guide and protect humanity. Without him the perils/dangers of the warp (which have grown tremendously since the Shamans' time) would engulf humanity and indeed the rest of the galaxy. 

As long as he endures on the Golden Throne (not for much longer) humanity will be protected from the worst perils of Chaos, and guided by his tarot.

-- The Emperors soul wouldn't necessarily be consumed by the Chaos Gods (although it could be), it would simply be lost to the chaos of the warp and would fade in time, preyed upon by daemons and other warp entites. His Soul, due to the nature of the warp would not be able to find a replacement body (because of the Chaos of the warp) and would simply die out. (at least in my opinion)

:good:


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## Marchosias (Mar 16, 2009)

Sorry, i mis-phrased my question. I meant to ask would they fail (future tense). Perhaps it's too hard to say at this minute.

I just think something as prized as the Emperor's soul would not slip into nothingness. I reckon some being would want it as a trophy as i imagine he was the only one to cause the Chaos Gods any trouble. Again this is just my opinion.

EDIT: Perhaps it could escalate the war between the big four


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## Death Shroud (Mar 1, 2008)

The official fluff from "the lost and the damned" states that the Chaos Gods cannot find the Emperors soul. I like to think of the link between the Emperor's soul and the golden throne acting like an umbilical cord feeding the Starchild with lot's of souly goodness (mmm sacrificed psyker goodness).


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

The Emperor's soul would already be consumed, it is simply flaoting out i nthe warp at the moment. A tether doesn't prevent it from being absorbed. Logically, if his soul could be absorbed, it would already be. Fluff says he's jsut floating in the warp, basically, tethered to the material plane through his corpse. He may be able to battle the Chaos gods, but he is unwilling to leave the Imperium in the dark. Even if he was able to weaken the Chaos gods in battle, the warp would still be a chaotic place..too dangerous for travel without the lighthouse. 

((Logically...as I'm discussing a fictional event written by people with wild imaginations...XD))


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Atsuno11 said:


> The Emperor's soul would already be consumed, it is simply flaoting out i nthe warp at the moment. A tether doesn't prevent it from being absorbed. Logically, if his soul could be absorbed, it would already be. Fluff says he's jsut floating in the warp, basically, tethered to the material plane through his corpse. He may be able to battle the Chaos gods, but he is unwilling to leave the Imperium in the dark. Even if he was able to weaken the Chaos gods in battle, the warp would still be a chaotic place..too dangerous for travel without the lighthouse.
> 
> ((Logically...as I'm discussing a fictional event written by people with wild imaginations...XD))


No i disagree. If that were the case ALL souls of ALL mortals would have already been consumed. 

The Emperors body is acting as a tether/anchor for his soul, his body is technically still 'alive' therefore his soul is anchored in his body, so he retains his massive warp presence. (his soul is in his body not in the warp) - his mighty warp presence is what is present in the warp. (my opinion anyway!!)


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