# C'Tan power level



## LordofFenris (Mar 10, 2010)

Hey all, a little input from the forum:

I have seen many posts or comments saying that the C'Tan should be moved to Apocalypse only games.

As a Necron fan.....I agree.

The C'Tan are gods. Gods more ancient and destructive than even the Chaos Gods they were around to see the Chaos Gods, yes even Grandfather Nurgle, being born from the lesser psychic races created by the Old Ones.......the C'Tan were born BEFORE the Old Ones, the race that created the Eldar. Their fluff has them laying waste to entire star systems, wiping worlds clean of all life in an instant. 

In game terms, the C'Tan have been relegated to being stronger than a Land Raider. In games, I have seen a Devastator squad kill a Nightbringer. Nightbringer: his fluff gives him credit as placing his own image in the genetic memory of all races (cept Orks!) so they fear death. Man was so scared of the image of the Nightbringer they gave death his persona: Reaper. Should an infantry squad really be able to kill a God? Should a Imperial Guardsman be able to kill the Emperor? No. So why the down grade of the C'Tan.

These beings should be instant game winners. Not huge targets killed easily when all firepower is directed against them. Either give the C'Tan extra abilites they should have, or move them to a version of 40K where better rules for them could fit in.

Give the Necrons more choices to be a full army, maybe even stay in line with the Egyptian theme. Boost the Necrons themselves, or fix their Gods.


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## gauntsghost025 (Apr 9, 2009)

LordofFenris said:


> These beings should be instant game winners.


I doubt people would play Necron players with them in their lists if that were the case.


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## LordofFenris (Mar 10, 2010)

gauntsghost025 said:


> I doubt people would play Necron players with them in their lists if that were the case.


I agree. Thats why I think they should be placed in Apocalypse. That way it would be better balanced to handle enhanced C'Tan. I misspoke, maybe not instant, but def. game changing.


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## 13illfred (Jun 23, 2010)

i thought that the models where supposed to be an avatar of some sort, more a portion of the essence of the C'tan than the actual C'Tan themselves


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## LordofFenris (Mar 10, 2010)

Not really. Its a necrodermis skin, which the C'Tan condenses his power into and manifests itself for a corporeal form. So Nightbringer is really in that body. Maybe the actual model is supposed to represent a portion of the C'Tan, but the codex kind of gives you the feeling of it really being them.


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## Arbite (Jan 1, 2010)

I don't think they should be apoc only. They're not particularly fast, highly expensive. The games in which most people would take them are games in which they can be dealt with 2000+


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

LordofFenris said:


> I agree. Thats why I think they should be placed in Apocalypse. That way it would be better balanced to handle enhanced C'Tan. I misspoke, maybe not instant, but def. game changing.


I think that since they really are gods they should be placed at the height of the Emperor and removed from the game completely


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## LordofFenris (Mar 10, 2010)

I'm also ok with that. I just want them to be true to the fluff. As you said, the C'Tan should be equal or stronger than the Emperor. The Emperor isn't in the game. They shouldn't be either. GW just needs to fix their fluff, one way or the other.


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## PapaSmurf124 (Mar 28, 2010)

hippypancake said:


> I think that since they really are gods they should be placed at the height of the Emperor and removed from the game completely


Unless I read wrong, isn't t3h Emprah on life support, and incapable of doing much of anything anyway?


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

PapaSmurf124 said:


> Unless I read wrong, isn't t3h Emprah on life support, and incapable of doing much of anything anyway?


...excuses, excuses, excuses xD


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Baron Spikey and CotE seem to have remained absent so far, so let me beat them to the punch.

First, I have to say that the c`tan are not necessarily more powerful than the Chaos Gods. In fact, I would rate them as being a fair bit weaker, at least in terms of raw power. The prime advantage they have over the ruinous powers is that they exist physically, and are able to affect things directly, something the likes of Khorne or Tzeentch can not do. 

Now, fluffwise, the c`tan are quite uber, far more powerful than their current codex profile suggests. 

I`ll give my example of how I would write the Nightbringer:

WS---BS---S---T---W---I---A---Ld---Sv
-9----5---10---9---8---6---8---10---2+/3+

Points would be huge, somewhere like 1000+. He would also have a plethora of extra rules, allowing leadership tricks, extra attacks, immunity to some weapons, perhaps even some sort of apoc formation. 

On the note of game changing, I would say absolutely. The current codex versions as 13illfred said are better used to represent beefy Necron Lords, at least from a storytelling point of view.

As to their actual power limits in regards to fluff... Bear in mind that they can be destroyed. According to history, there were thousands of these guys over the course of the war in heaven, and they were whittled down to four (though of interest is the fact that the only ones to succeed in killing a c`tan are actually other c`tan). From this, we can assume that their power is limited to a reasonable degree.

In short, yes to apoc only, but not game wreckingly good. At least on par with the daemon lords (which they kind of already are).


Also, as a fellow necron player, I too would welcome any expansion on the necron/c`tan fluff. It seems that from mentions in newer codexes, the character of the necrons is going to alter a little.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Right I've got ateensy bit of a hangover so don't expect anything too profound...

The C'tan were/are at a level below that of the Chaos Gods, how do I know this?
Well the Eldar Gods were consumed by Slaanesh but the mightiest of the Eldar Deities, Khaine, couldn't be slain outright and instead was torn assunder, his essence scattered.

In the War in Heaven Khaine performed a similar feat against the Nightbringer, who is considered one of the most powerful of the C'tan, it doesn't take an genius to realise that Chaos Gods>Eldar Gods & Eldar Gods>Star Gods then obviously Chaos Gods>Star Gods.

I couldn't really comment with any certainty regarding the power difference between the most puissant Daemon Lords and the Yngir, but I doubt the likes of Doombreed would be an easy kill for the C'tan.


Right I'm off to drink a pint of aspirin and sleep till judgment day...


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> In the War in Heaven Khaine performed a similar feat against the Nightbringer, who is considered one of the most powerful of the C'tan, it doesn't take an genius to realise that Chaos Gods>Eldar Gods & Eldar Gods>Star Gods then obviously Chaos Gods>Star Gods.


My thinking precisely. The C'tan are not more powerful than the chaos gods. They may have been meant to be before major fan backlash put the chaos gods on top again, but currently the C'tan's power doesn't hold a candle to the chaos gods. Nor are they necessarily older, as the nature of the warp means that the chaos gods existed even before their conception; time has n meaning in the Warp.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

its over 900,000!

sorry couldnt resist 
i personaly hate the ctan its not fair how they take invulnerable saves away


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Their power is a combination of several things.

They have direct control over their specific "sect" of Necrons. Necrons are normally autonomous but they accept control of the C'tan in charge of them. Part of the C'tans power is in his ability to seamlessly control entire vast armies of Necrons.

As for his personal power, the Living Metal shell is more a siphon or conduit for the C'tan to funnel his power into the corporeal dimension. He does, essentially, "possess" the shell, but it acts as a bottleneck. The avatar is not as powerful as the actual C'tan as this is not its normal state of existence, however, unlike Daemons, their form allows them to operate in such a fashion indefinitely. C'tan, while not technically originating in another dimension like Daemons do, operate on an etherial level, more akin to spirits while not encased in their shells. Upon entreing these bodies, they gain the power to impose their will on the world around them.

C'tan are far more powerful than the game would suggest- The Nightbringer is so powerful, his mere presence can cause those around him to kill themselves just to escape him. They would be much better suited to apocalypse games than standard 40k.

I do not support their removal however- The Emperor and Chaos Lords are not included in the game not because they are simply not allowed, but because these entities do not actively participate in the battles their respective forces wage- the Chaos Lords stay in the warp, and the Emperor is entombed in necrotic comatose upon the Golden Throne. The C'tan, however, take direct intervention in battles on a very regular basis.


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## LordofFenris (Mar 10, 2010)

Thanks Iron Angel for the clarification. If you read the Necron codex, the C'Tan are far stronger and older than the Chaos Gods EXAMPLE:

from the Necrons Codex pg 26

"The growing pains of the Young Races threw the untapped energies of the warp into disorder. War, pain and destruction were mirrored in the bottomless depths of the sea of souls. The maelstrom of spirits unleashed in the carnage coalesced into the previously formless energies of the warp. Older warp entities became terrifying predators....."

further down:

"Most proficient of these horrors were the Enslavers, beings whose ability to dominate the Young Races and create their own portals with transmuted psykers brought them forth in even greater numbers."

It appears to me from reading those paragraphs, the C'Tan are at least as old if not older than the Chaos Gods. Also, at the very least, the Chaos Gods may have been around before the first paragraph, but they didn't become what they are now until the war between the Old Ones and the C'Tan/Necrons, IMO.

As far as power.....it was already pointed out that the C'Tan one fights in the game are but avatars of the full power of a C'Tan. At the very least, a Nightbringer vs. Khorne battle would be a stalemate.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

In order of oldness, these are the races/entities which we can cleanly define the ages.

C'tan>Old Ones>Necrontyr>Orks>Eldar>Humans>Warp gods>Tau.

The warp gods are actually some of the youngest entities in the galaxy. The whole timecube argument saying Warp Gods always existed only applies if we are measuring time within the warp. However, in this dimension where time is actually relative and relevant, we can acutely define the period of time in which the Warp Gods manifested in relation to this realm- The one that matters in a historical sense.

Whether they are more or less powerful than Warp Gods is uncertain. Warp gods are extraordinarily powerful, but only within the actual warp. They rely on their minions to do their bidding elsewhere- Much like the C'tan in spirit form requiring Necrons to do their bidding in the corporeal universe. I'm sure that bringing a Warp God into the physical realm within a construct would severely cripple its power, very similar to the effect on a C'tan. In the etherial universe, C'tan are unbeatable powers, devouring souls and generally being unable to be destroyed by anything short of another C'tan- Much like the Warp Gods in the Warp. The two are completely anologious to the other in terms of power. many people seem to forget the external shell they inhabit seriously handicaps them in terms of power, but is the only way they can actually interact with the physical realm. Destruction of said avatar unleashes a brief moment of their true ability, where their spirit still momentarily remains in this realm before it is defaulted back to its spirit form, resulting in a massive explosion that more often than not kills everything around it. The C'tan then travels through the ether again until it deigns to reinhabit another shell.

As for the Slavers, there are many theories on them, and so little about them is known that not even I can juxtapose of their origins. However, judging by the time of their appearance, it is safe to say the C'tan beginning to win the war played a primary role in their appearance, if not their existence. From their description, you might even be able to call the Slavers the first Daemons, since their actions and abilities are not dissimilar to those of modern Daemons- They are able to use Psykers to create portals into this realm, and to inhabit and mutate them to their own purposes. Another possibility is that they were a last-ditch effort to create a race that could enter the etherial plane to devour the C'tan, which backfired drastically, creating a super-warp-proficient race that instead turned on its masters. In the end, its impossible to know, as the only source of information on their existence is archived in the Black Library.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Hmm I always thought the warp gods with the exception of Slaanesh where more or less always in existence, but are unable to manifest in the earlier periods do to not being strong enough. (Those extra few millennium of sentient's dying really makes the difference.) After all the warp has according to 40k fiction has been in existence for as long as sentient races have. So in actuality chaos entities have existed far before any of the modern races, they would have started to exist the moment the very first sentient race died. I mean come the hell on to say the warp gods are younger then the c'tan is naive, since it has been well documented in the sometimes contradictory 40k fiction that the warp itself is more or less the place where all souls/mind/psychic fragment go when almost any entity dies.

Now the chaos gods we know today may not be older then say the old ones or the earliest Necon's, but we know for a fact they are older then the eldar because the youngest of them almost destroyed the Eldar at its birth meaning any similar occurrence would have been well documented by the Eldar, since it would have been the kind of thing you would have documented well.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Khorne, if manifested, would destroy everything.


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

Iron Angel said:


> In order of oldness, these are the races/entities which we can cleanly define the ages.
> 
> C'tan>Old Ones>Necrontyr>Orks>Eldar>Humans>Warp gods>Tau.
> 
> .


Wait...I thought the Necrontyr came into existance before/at the same time as the Old Ones? clarification please?


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## gauntsghost025 (Apr 9, 2009)

Fluff != Translation to In-Game Power

Look at marines. Grimaldus survives a huge temple of stone crushing him, only to be killed by 5 flashlights on my table??


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

hippypancake said:


> Wait...I thought the Necrontyr came into existance before/at the same time as the Old Ones? clarification please?


No. The Old Ones appeared first. They were the first terrastrial life form to reach sentience, thus the first to begin colonizing the galaxy. 

The Necrontyr were younger, suffering early setbacks due to their short lifespans, which later drove them to rapid scientific development to escape death. That`s why their tech is so much more advanced despite them being a younger race than the Old Ones.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

> It appears to me from reading those paragraphs, the C'Tan are at least as old if not older than the Chaos Gods. Also, at the very least, the Chaos Gods may have been around before the first paragraph, but they didn't become what they are now until the war between the Old Ones and the C'Tan/Necrons, IMO.


Again, you're comparing apples to eldritch abominations that would warp your mind if you were to stare into the unfathomable depths of their madness inducing feelers. To apply time to the chaos gods, or, indeed, anything in the warp, is a fruitless endeavor. The chaos gods are both older and younger than everything in the universe. They exist at all periods of time while simultaneously existing in none.



> As far as power.....it was already pointed out that the C'Tan one fights in the game are but avatars of the full power of a C'Tan.


What do you mean "one fights in the game?" Which game? Dawn of War? That's true, but that doesn't mean the C'tan have only fought as "avatars." The Nightbringer fought Khaine in his full, metallic, star-eating glory and lost the battle. He'd win the war in the end, but his one-on-one fight with Khaine ended in defeat. 

If you're still not convinced, look at it this way: The c'tan are masters of real space and can do virtually anything any human being can concieve. The chaos powers are masters of warp space and can do virtually anything any human being can and _cannot_ concieve. The C'tan are bound by physical laws, taxed though they may be by WH40k's brand of science, while the chaos gods have no such limitation. The C'tan have significant influence in real space and virtually no influence in the warp. The Chaos powers have unlimited influence in the warp and considerable influence in real space.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

K3k3000 said:


> Again, you're comparing apples to eldritch abominations that would warp your mind if you were to stare into the unfathomable depths of their madness inducing feelers. To apply time to the chaos gods, or, indeed, anything in the warp, is a fruitless endeavor. The chaos gods are both older and younger than everything in the universe. They exist at all periods of time while simultaneously existing in none.
> 
> 
> What do you mean "one fights in the game?" Which game? Dawn of War? That's true, but that doesn't mean the C'tan have only fought as "avatars." The Nightbringer fought Khaine in his full, metallic, star-eating glory and lost the battle. He'd win the war in the end, but his one-on-one fight with Khaine ended in defeat.
> ...


This is not entirely accurate, in the Nec codex it clearly states, the Ctan are beyond the physics and laws of reality and are able to shape reality (of real space) to every whim of their will.

So the Ctan are complete masters of real space able to will reality to anything that can be fathomed and *can't* be fathomed.

As for the Khaine battle it is unknown where it took place, as I think it took place in the warp as if it was in real space khaine would have likely been annihilated, seeing as how all the vaul stone fortresses in unison were nearly anihilated by the void dragon in its fight with them. It would make sense the nightbringer lost its duel to khaine in the warp, due to that the Ctan's ability to manipulate reality is much less in the warp then it is in real space (absolute). On top of this it also states in the same passage where the nightbringer's necrodermis shell was pierced by khaine, that even though that ctan lost the duel the nec armies absolutely slaughtered the eldar in that battle and drove them back, so lost the duel but won the battle.

Furthermore Khaine merely pierced the nightbringer's necrodermis, which the NB then went back near instantly and took housing in another necrodermis shell, khaine did no true damage to the nightbringer what so ever, while contrastingly the nightbringer permanently tainted Khaine with the mark of the reaper.


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## BrainFreeze (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm thinking this may be an argument where both sides are of equal strength but only within their focus. The Chaos Gods are obviously the strongest beings in warp space with the exception of Gork and Mork and their ability to grow infinitely. The C'Tan are obviously the strongest beings in physical space, to the point they can remove solar systems, distance has no meaning to them and their followers and they have the tech to remove the influence of the warp on real space.


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## LordofFenris (Mar 10, 2010)

BrainFreeze said:


> I'm thinking this may be an argument where both sides are of equal strength but only within their focus. The Chaos Gods are obviously the strongest beings in warp space with the exception of Gork and Mork and their ability to grow infinitely. The C'Tan are obviously the strongest beings in physical space, to the point they can remove solar systems, distance has no meaning to them and their followers and they have the tech to remove the influence of the warp on real space.


Summed up perfectly. Thats what I was trying to get out, but couldn't find the wording. Its like and unstoppable force meeting an immovable object..... Thanks BrainFreeze!


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

LordofFenris said:


> Not really. Its a necrodermis skin, which the C'Tan condenses his power into and manifests itself for a corporeal form. So Nightbringer is really in that body. Maybe the actual model is supposed to represent a portion of the C'Tan, but the codex kind of gives you the feeling of it really being them.


so the Nightbringer model is imbued with the total power of the Nightbringer

in that case, the C'tan rules are incredibly lame, esp. for "Stargods" that feed on entire suns


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> so the Nightbringer model is imbued with the total power of the Nightbringer
> 
> in that case, the C'tan rules are incredibly lame, esp. for "Stargods" that feed on entire suns


Keep in mind, it is a horribly outdated codex.


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Keep in mind, it is a horribly outdated codex.


and that they are the manifest of teh C'Tan not the gods themselves


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I still think a daemon lord would give a c'tan (In its corporeal shell) a real good fight. Still if for some reason a C'tan for some reason ever did fight a chaos god somehow (Not even sure how it would be possible) It would definitely be a one sided fight. Still since the chaos gods are safely locked away in the warp then the c'tan are bar none the most powerful known (Free) entities in 40k.

Still I would like to go on record by saying that in 40k the chaos gods are the closest thing to a actual god that still exists, while C'tan are more or less just a form of super xeno.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

The only things that are gods are the Warp based Gods because they need faith/belief to sustain them. Without the faith/belief/emotion of others they are nothing. Gods are the most fragile of entities because without followers they cease to exist. If the Necrons and C'tan harvest all life in the galaxy then the warp would dry up and the things that 'live' in it would just disappear.


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## Erinyi (Jun 21, 2010)

On the discussion which sort of Gods (although that definition is abit fuzzy) is the most powerful, I'm inclined to lean toward what BrainFreeze said earlier.

I believe that you can't measure the deities for the different races on the same powerscale. They may or may not be more powerful than each other, but they are so within their own domains.

So, for example (and I don't claim to be a fluff-God of any sort), while the C'tans who are the masters of real space were to go toe to toe with the Warp Gods, I think neither would be able to seriously damage, or even scratch one another. And that's not really how the Gods collectively fights either.

The C'tans would much rather proceed with their original plan and simply seperate the realspace from the warp permanently than trying to get into a titanic brawl.

The so-called duel between the Nightbringer and Khaine would perhaps be an exception, but they are the reflection of their own warmongery selves. This duel, as has been stated, didn't really lead anywhere. The Nightbringer was contained within his spandex suit which bottlenecked his powers. He could simply not measure up and his shell was breached by Khaine, who probably is as much of the warp as of realspace, and therefore *could* engage the C'tans in the corporeal.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

In regards to the C'tan tabletop rules being so incredibly lame when you compare them to the background material of the C'tan, its been speculated that in the new Necron Codex some Necron Lords have gone totally insane and believe themselves to be C'tan, its perfectly plausable that in the codex rewrite, the tabletop 'C'tan' will be written off as powerful Necron Lords thinking of themselves as C'tan, rather than actually the Star-Gods themselves.


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## The Iron Savior (Jul 26, 2010)

I think it's supposed to be an Avatar-ish concept here; each "Nightbringer" you field is basically like an eye lash of the real thing, which is why there can be so many of them (every 'cron has used to C'Tan at least once). The only thing that doesn't make sense then is why there aren't like squads of Nightbringers (could you imagine? lol), if he's still so powerful.

Basically, I think they should keep what they have now, but they should make Apocalypse rules and FW models of like Titan-size C'Tan too. Maybe even make larger manifestations the grade of Warlord Titans. But, considering how small our army list is already, removing units is not the best idea (especially seeing as I highly doubt that GW is going to make a new Necron unit... I can only dream).

So, that's my spiel.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The Iron Savior said:


> I think it's supposed to be an Avatar-ish concept here; each "Nightbringer" you field is basically like an eye lash of the real thing, which is why there can be so many of them (every 'cron has used to C'Tan at least once). The only thing that doesn't make sense then is why there aren't like squads of Nightbringers (could you imagine? lol), if he's still so powerful.


Using that logic you'd have squads of all the special characters- oh no! a full squad of 10 abaddons, argh!


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

Back on topic here, I heard a rumor that the C'tan will have much larger models and only useable in apocalypse. IMO, C'tan are extremely powerful for their points - night bringer killed my Hierophant!!! (with the help of a stompa and about 5 mega dreads)


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Lux said:


> This is not entirely accurate, in the Nec codex it clearly states, the Ctan are beyond the physics and laws of reality and are able to shape reality (of real space) to every whim of their will.
> 
> So the Ctan are complete masters of real space able to will reality to anything that can be fathomed and *can't* be fathomed.


I say this is disproved by their own history. Before the C'tan turned on each other, their progress on Old One Space was steady, but not instantenous. It took time, and resistance was met. An omnipotent being could have destroyed or devoured all old ones in the galaxy instantenously, when clearly this was beyond the C'tan. C'tan can be weakened, defeated, or sealed, as shown throughout the lore. Their limitations may be beyond the scope of normal mortals to take advantage of, but they exist, and can be used against them by more powerful entities.




> As for the Khaine battle it is unknown where it took place, as I think it took place in the warp as if it was in real space khaine would have likely been annihilated, seeing as how all the vaul stone fortresses in unison were nearly anihilated by the void dragon in its fight with them.


The Talisman of Vaul are not eldar gods. Nothing the eldar have put together seems to be a match for the incredible power of their deities, including the talisman.

Also, I don't think it says much about the intelligence of the C'tan if they'd confront a warp entity in the warp, a dimension that is continuously described as being anathema to their existence. If such is their intelligence that they'd fight a being with every disadvantage working against them their threat to the galaxy is severely overestimated.



> On top of this it also states in the same passage where the nightbringer's necrodermis shell was pierced by khaine, that even though that ctan lost the duel the nec armies absolutely slaughtered the eldar in that battle and drove them back, so lost the duel but won the battle.
> 
> Furthermore Khaine merely pierced the nightbringer's necrodermis, which the NB then went back near instantly and took housing in another necrodermis shell, khaine did no true damage to the nightbringer what so ever, while contrastingly the nightbringer permanently tainted Khaine with the mark of the reaper.


Just because Khaine and the eldar came out of the confrontation worse for the wear doesn't mean Khaine wasn't victorious. He defeated Nightbringer. His power was greater than that of a C'tan. The fact that the nature of the C'tan allows for such rapid and complete regeneration is irrelevant.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

HAH, the random rantings of the Eldar, the Old Ones' failed experiment. The Eldar are a dead race floating in space, they just don't admit it. The Eldar and their gods already lost millions of years ago. Eldar are like Pee Wee's death scene in Buffy the Vampire Slayer: GET ON WITH IT ALREADY!


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## The Iron Savior (Jul 26, 2010)

I wouldn't say that Eldar are necessarily completely defeated. But, in comparison to everyone else, they're like a speck. They're included for their far-reaching influence and history, not so much for their immense numbers.

Weird thing is, they have ridiculously high amounts of players for such a small race in the lore, thus proving that if everything about GW were accurate to the lore, then (first off) Eldar would have a very limited army list like DE (though then DE would be even *smaller*, if that's possible) due to their scarcity as a race, and (second off) there would be no sentient life left in the galaxy due to the Enslavers that drove off the C'Tan killing everything.

Then again, my numbers may be off; I'm not exactly sure how the Eldar rank as a species in comparison to the other ones.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

darklove said:


> HAH, the random rantings of the Eldar, the Old Ones' failed experiment. The Eldar are a dead race floating in space, they just don't admit it. The Eldar and their gods already lost millions of years ago. Eldar are like Pee Wee's death scene in Buffy the Vampire Slayer: GET ON WITH IT ALREADY!


1) I wouldn't call them failed. Once upon a time they were the biggest and baddest empire in the galaxy. More powerful in scope than the Old Ones at their prime, according to some. And they served their purpose as a weapon against the necron well. Sure, falling to a god of hedonism isn't the most dignified way to go, but just loom at the necron and c'tan. Sealed in Mars? Tricked to devour the majority of your own species? Butt kicked by an eldar god? Getting a mine dropped on 'em? 

2) The eldar are perfectly aware that they're dying, and they'd probably be the first ones to admit it. They kind of have a baby god dedicated to the idea.



The Iron Savior said:


> Weird thing is, they have ridiculously high amounts of players for such a small race in the lore, thus proving that if everything about GW were accurate to the lore, then (first off) Eldar would have a very limited army list like DE (though then DE would be even *smaller*, if that's possible) due to their scarcity as a race, and (second off) there would be no sentient life left in the galaxy due to the Enslavers that drove off the C'Tan killing everything.


Scarcity of race doesn't really equate to a lack of unit diversity. Because of the strict combat paths the eldar follow, as well as deviations from all these paths, there's a wide variety of roles and specializations an eldar can fill.


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## Karnax (Sep 23, 2010)

IIRC, the C'tan tried to seal off realspace from the warp during the war in heaven. Wouldnt this mean that they have some power over the warp?


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Necromancy at it's finest. :wink:


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

Besides other Ctan . What can kill off a Ctan? What if a full chapter of Space marines went after Night bringer would that be enough?


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## lemage (Jul 21, 2011)

the thing thats left out is the fact that the c'tan cant comprehend the warp , meaning they have no psychic powers and a vulnerability to them. and remember the thing that stopped the "war in heaver" was the emergence of enslavers from the warp. now imagine more powerful beings now.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

kwak76 said:


> Besides other Ctan . What can kill off a Ctan? What if a full chapter of Space marines went after Night bringer would that be enough?


You can't truly kill off a C'Tan unless you happen to be one yourself- there used to be tons of them before they got in a big war and the Nightbringer decided to start eating all of his buddies. Otherwise all you can do is destroy their physical forms and keep them off your back for awhile. Then they come back, twice as hungry and pissed off.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I completely agree with you. I don't believe the C'tan should be playable characters in the game.Why? Well, unless you forgot the actually won the war in heaven. The talismans of Vaul were created and it's pretty much hinted that the attack against them didn't go very well. Add to that the Enslaver plague was icing on the cake,but they were set to use the known universe as their personal OCB. As far as the warp is concerned they had already begun engineering to cut the warp off from real space so Chaos Gods Smaosh Snods it wouldn't matter because with no psysker in real space Chaos is just a word for a wild party. 

In case your wondering what I'm talking about you can read Eisenhorn when he's hunting down a rogue inquisitor who's discovered one of these devices. I don't believe a Daemon Lord or Prince can kill a C'tan. It would require either an entity like Khaine or one of the Gods themselves. I'm not going to say that just because Khaine smashed the Nightbringer it means that all the Eldar Gods would be victorious against C'tan.Let's be honest as far as the story goes he was like the Ares for that pantheon meaning he was the only credible warrior in the crew. 

The only god who stood toe to toe with Slaanesh and got owned himself. The C'tan have one thing that the Eldar deities don't have. They can create pariah's to combat the warp gods. Both Chaos and the C'tan have each others numbers as far was weaknesses go. 

Finally I actually have a theory. I really do believe that all the machine spirits in the traitor and loyalist technology (which are AI's) really will follow the Void Dragon if it can free itself. If it awakens there goes mars and any traitors it can find. It activates those plyons and there goes the warp connection to this universe. It's not directly stated but implied that warp energy is anathema to them so with that gone that would be a wrap for humanity and the eldar. Orks and tyranids would still be good for a time.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> Well, unless you forgot they actually won the war in heaven.


Well they didn't really. Remember that by the time of the Enslaver Plague the C'tan and Necrons were actually the ones in retreat (after the emergence of much more attuned psychic races of the Eldar, Rashan and K'nib among others), they could not _"stay the Old Ones' relentless advance."_ This forced the C'tan to unite (something which they hadn't done in millions of years) and attempt to enact their great warding plan. So if anything it was more of a stalemate by the time the Enslaver Plague erupted. Although what does seem strange is why the C'tan then postponed their warding and chose to retreat into hibernation... 

And in regards to the C'tan Vs Chaos question, theres a good thread somewhere in the FAQ which is interesting.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> I completely agree with you. I don't believe the C'tan should be playable characters in the game.Why? Well, unless you forgot the actually won the war in heaven. The talismans of Vaul were created and it's pretty much hinted that the attack against them didn't go very well. Add to that the Enslaver plague was icing on the cake,but they were set to use the known universe as their personal OCB. As far as the warp is concerned they had already begun engineering to cut the warp off from real space so Chaos Gods Smaosh Snods it wouldn't matter because with no psysker in real space Chaos is just a word for a wild party.
> 
> In case your wondering what I'm talking about you can read Eisenhorn when he's hunting down a rogue inquisitor who's discovered one of these devices. I don't believe a Daemon Lord or Prince can kill a C'tan. It would require either an entity like Khaine or one of the Gods themselves. I'm not going to say that just because Khaine smashed the Nightbringer it means that all the Eldar Gods would be victorious against C'tan.Let's be honest as far as the story goes he was like the Ares for that pantheon meaning he was the only credible warrior in the crew.
> 
> ...



You`re oversimplifying it. No matter how effective the anti warp technology is, it is not an auto win button. The nature of the necrons and c`tan proves that the warp is not the only means to amassing great power, and I can think of at least two races that could adapt to a warpless universe if this became the case. 

Also bear in mind the fluff is poised to change, and rumour suggests the c`tan are about to take a far more diminished role in the lore of 40k. Nothing is confirmed yet, but if the rumours prove true, and it turns out that the necrons actually do enslave the c`tan, then I would say the star gods are not the real threat anymore. :scratchhead:


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Also bear in mind the fluff is poised to change, and rumour suggests the c`tan are about to take a far more diminished role in the lore of 40k. Nothing is confirmed yet, but if the rumours prove true, and it turns out that the necrons actually do enslave the c`tan, then I would say the star gods are not the real threat anymore. :scratchhead:


The Void Dragon will still be a problem, cause to kill/enslave it you'd have to also take out Mars, which would screw the Imperium over. Also, the only way the Necrons are going to be an actual threat is if they manage to beat the Ultrasmurfs in the sequel to Fall of Damnos. If the Crons can beat the Smurfs, the Imperium might as well surrender and die now. :biggrin:


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I haven't heard the rumors of the necrons being able to enslave the c'tan.The whole "they are mindless slaves" point comes to mind but whatever. I wasn't saying they could take chaos like a walk in the park. I meant that the C'tan themselves are a universale threat on par with Chaos and the tyranids. Black library can do whatever they want with the C'tan. But the Void dragon's story will make absolutely no sense.The fact the the most powerful human psyker defeated but couldn't/wouldn't destroy a serverely weakened Dragon will make no sense. 

If they are going to diminish their power they never should have written Mechanicus.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

No, if anything it _increases_ the power level of the necrons themselves. The c`tan are far too well established in numerous BL books and sources to simply erase and rewrite. 

However, recent stories featuring the necrons (Hellforged, Dead Men Walking, Fall of Damnos) paint the necrons as being far more autonomous than previous iterations, and make no reference to the c`tan at all. Given the knowledge BL writers are given and permitted to work with, it follows that the fluff regarding them is about to change. 

The nature of the c`tan has always been the same. They are the single most powerful entities in the physical universe. The fact that the necrontyr had the technology in the first place to allow the c`tan to manifest makes it easier to believe that they would also have the ability to bind them in a way that rendered them in control. Imagine it as a similar process to binding a daemonhost. The daemon possesses a body, but is kept trapped and bound to servitude by wards and sigils. 

The principle is the same, however in the case of the c`tan I imagine it would be a case of limiting the amount of energy the c`tan can channel through the body (they _need_ a physical form to interact with the realm of matter) and instilling some kind of built in restraint triggered at the command of the necron lord in charge. 

This is just an educated guess, but my point is that the c`tan being reduced to slaves does not inherently mean they are in any way weaker than they have been before. After all, the fact that the Void Dragon survived Twelve Talismans of Vaul, the fact that the Deceiver engineered key events of the Black Crusades, the fact that the Dragon battled the Emperor and still sleeps on Mars, these are all still canon. It may even be possible that the four are not the last surviving c`tan, but simply the last _free_ c`tan. We won`t know for sure until the codex comes out.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

aboytervigon said:


> its over 900,000!


Erm... wrong meme.

It's over 9,000.

I quite like the C'Tan being enslaved to the Necrons. It's just... ironic? The masters of the physical trapped by beings that are also entirely physical? Mayhap they are not the masters after all.

Midnight


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

The main problem I have with the Necrons not being led by the C'tan anymore is just that I don't want the Necrons to become like Chaos. "We attack you and fail because.... that was part of our SUPER AWESOME PLAN MWUAHAHAHA!"
as it is with every Black Crusade. 

So far the 'Crons have either won every engagement or have been defeated at great cost, but when they begin to attack in force, I'm worried that GW will turn them into another "Inevitable evil that will crush the Imperium some day" because that's all there seems to be these days. We all know that if GW ever moves the story forward(unlikely) the Emperor will just come back to life to save the day anyways. 

The Emperor couldn't kill the Void Dragon? Good. Make Big E remember that when the time comes for him to fight the Crons.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

The C'tan are too powerful to be led by the Necrons. The Necrons are slaves period.They wanted the C'tan's help in defeating the Old Ones because they couldn't do it. Once they had them in the physical bodies the C'tan began to slaughter them until they bought the Old Ones to their attention. You look at the power these beings have shown in the past and although I'll give the Necrons the edge in power of most of the younger races,against the C'tan it's worthless. The Void Dragon released still owns them and all their tech. The Night Lord weakened is still more powerful then any of them combined. At no point in their story were they ever masters or appeared to be the masters of the C'tan. It's like if all of a sudden the Eldar turn out to be the true masters of Chaos and the Gods are in thrall to them. How stupid would that story be.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> The C'tan are too powerful to be led by the Necrons. The Necrons are slaves period.They wanted the C'tan's help in defeating the Old Ones because they couldn't do it. Once they had them in the physical bodies the C'tan began to slaughter them until they bought the Old Ones to their attention. You look at the power these beings have shown in the past and although I'll give the Necrons the edge in power of most of the younger races,against the C'tan it's worthless. The Void Dragon released still owns them and all their tech. The Night Lord weakened is still more powerful then any of them combined. At no point in their story were they ever masters or appeared to be the masters of the C'tan. It's like if all of a sudden the Eldar turn out to be the true masters of Chaos and the Gods are in thrall to them. How stupid would that story be.


There are a few hundred million years of virtually unexplained fluff, and most of the War in Heaven remains myth at best. Given what we know of the necrons, and the fact that they are the the ones who empowered the c`tan in the first place, do you really find it so hard to believe that there might be an uprising at some point? 

A Rise of the machines so to speak?


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Empowered the C'tan? You realize they discovered these being devouring stars, right.The war in Heaven happened because the C'tan wanted it to after the necrons offered them the Old Ones instead of slaughtering them. Without the C'tan the battle of the Necrontyr and Old Ones was like watching a paraplegic woman fight Junior Dos Santos. It says in the fluff that the Necrons at no time were a threat to the Old Ones.They got taken advantage of and enslaved. That's their story. They didn't chose to be the way the are now, they were decieved by the C'tan. So at no time,is what I'm saying, have they displayed anything other than being victimized by the star gods.Read the origin story again. Nowhere does it give them the appearance of power over anything. They thought they could ally with the star gods and get their help in destroying the Old Ones. They instead were enslaved and made to worship the C'tan as gods. That's the story.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> There are a few hundred million years of virtually unexplained fluff, and most of the War in Heaven remains myth at best. Given what we know of the necrons, and the fact that they are the the ones who empowered the c`tan in the first place, do you really find it so hard to believe that there might be an uprising at some point?
> 
> A Rise of the machines so to speak?


I was always under the impression that the Necrons were told how to construct the metal bodies for their masters by the C'tans themselves. 

So if that is the actual case, I don't see how the Necrons empowered their overlords at all.

But my Necron fluff has dwindled overtime and Fall of Damnos did nothing to help with that so idunno.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Your actually right. From the fluff it was said the the C'tan instructed the Necrons how to build vessels for them to inhabit. The Necrons being written to appear more autonomous compared to what. The tech they have only the Eldar can come close too.They as a race are older than other around right now we know of. So compared to the younger races I don't see the need to redo the fluff. The Necrons and their masters who should be on Chaos Gods level of threat are gunning for the exact opposite of the Gods.They don't get along that well just like the big 4. They want to devour the universe just like the Gods except they don't need to manifest themselves or servants.

How come Chaos can have servants who display will intiative and drive without diminishing their masters powers but the c'tan can't have that. Maybe because they are weakened from just waking up they are pushing the Necrons to be more go-getters.The attack on mars to free the dragon? No C'tan leading that. That's what I'm saying.Deep down these guys are still run by the Star Gods.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

No. No. No. What fluff are you referring to? The necrontyr may never have threatened the old ones, but once becoming the necrons and allying with the c`tan that all changed.

Necron codex, Page 25.



> Understanding that such diffuse minds could never perceive the material realm without manifesting themselves, the Necrontyr forged bodies for them to occupy, cast from the living metal of their ships.


See that? The c`tan had no perception of matter before this. Read below, from the same page further down: 



> Incomprehensible forces were compressed into the living metal of the false bodies which the necrontyr had forged as the full power of the c`tan found form. As the c`tan became ever more manifest with the focus of their consciousness, they began to appreciate the subtleties and pleasures of both matter and life. The close weaves of dancing particles enthralled them and the deliciously focused trickles of electromagnetism leaked by the mortal bodies of the necrontyr awoke a hunger in the c`tan quite unlike the one they had sated among the raging torrents of stars.


...Which means that the necrontyr themselves had the technology and understood the physics behind allowing the c`tan to manifest. They had the understanding to empower the gods, as I said. Before this, the c`tan were clueless star vampires and nothing more.


What you are saying, that the c`tan told them how to create metal bodies, comes later: 



> But the c`tan had another boon to grant their subjects. They offered the necrontyr a path to the immortality and stability they had always craved. Their cursed flesh would be replaced with living metal in imitation of their gods.


Therefore, the necrontyr posess all the knowledge needed to overthrow their masters. They understand how the gods manifest, and the power they received from the gods afterward only made it easier for them.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

13illfred said:


> i thought that the models where supposed to be an avatar of some sort, more a portion of the essence of the C'tan than the actual C'Tan themselves


I always thought that too...makes a heck of a lot more sense


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Yeah, I mean, if they were the full power of the C'tan in physical form, they would crush all opposing forces in a matter of minutes. It'd be like if Chaos could field Khorne. You just can't stop that kind of power without another god. Although, now that I think of it, having every race able to deploy gods would make for some really epic Apocalypse games. :biggrin:


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## Dark Strategies (Sep 17, 2009)

How about they take the C'tan profile and in game model away and replace them with an area effect rule that can be bought with the Necron army "wargear" list. Such as a "once per game" the Necron army can attempt to call down the power of the C'tan to give D6 hits on each enemy unit on the board. Something like that might be a good compromise.

Just saying...


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