# Decided i don't like Horus Rising



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Mentioned this in another thread, but after recently reading HR again i've decided i don't like it, purely because it makes me like Horus so much! He's probably one of the most likeable characters of any book i've read, makes his fall so much more tragic and heartfelt. Before Horus was always a character i could easily hate and see him as the complete evil bastard he's portrayed as before now, but now i can't help but feel bad about the whole thing. Probably why it's rated as such an excellent book

Anyone else hate HR a little bit for this?

(obviously i don't really dislike or hate it before anyone misunderstands this!)


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

The title of this topic is very misleading. I was ready to ask what the hell's wrong with you.

But yeah thats the point of it. Horus wasn't an arrogant asshole like most would have expected him to be. He was quite kind, friendly and respected those who fought alongside him, regardless of who they were. Makes him a better character and makes what he became that much sadder, he became the mirror opposite of what he was all because the Emperor didn't care enough.


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## Kulzanar (Aug 10, 2010)

I feel the same about Fulgrim. The book is fantasticly written, but it saddens me to see one of the purest souls fall. The actual ending, meaning the last page, the last sentences were quite mind-blowing. As if a voice in your head started screaming. "NOOO, it can't end this way" Same about Saul Tarvitz, Torgaddon, Abbaddon, 'Little Horus' and Garviel Loken in Galaxy in Flames. I find it great that the books are written so wonderfull that you can almost live into the character. You start to like their personality, see how much it confers to the story and it's quite a shock to have that taken away. It's like wishing the book ends in a whole different way and that when you pick up the next that character is still there, with the same personality, battling for the good. But I guess that's the fate of the 40k novels. There is only war, and war brings death.

I've recently read some Gaunt's Ghosts novels and it's saddening when they escape their planet with 3.5k troops to then read how they die knowing full well that each and every man less is one more memory of Tanith erased. It's something the authors want, they want you to feel like you know the characters, as if you're there as well. That you can imagine the world and see it in front of you. A sort of testimony of the brave actions undertaken by actually just nothing more than words. It gives the saying "the pen is mightier than the sword" all credit. I felt these things when reading the Horus Heresy with the Luna Wolves, the Emperors children and the Imperial Guard in Legion. Just as when I felt it with the Tanith and Volpone regiments in Gaunt's Ghosts or the Vostroyans in Rebel Winter. Even when Malus Darkblade stabbed his own retainers to death I felt a slight sting. I guess there's no escaping. It should stick with you for a while but shouldn't keep you from reading further, once you do, you'll notice your mind is taken away from such things after a while.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I like the fact that BL made Horus into a more likeable and smarter character. It further explains why the emperor would make such a intelligent and diplomatic being warmaster. He truly might have been the best man to have led the crusade, but as they say, the bigger the man, the bigger the fall.

I don't think I would have followed the heresy if the primarchs were the basic daemonized characters that they have always been made out to be. Horus the big bad monster makes the 40k universe fall deeper into chaos because hes a jelous spoiled little bastard. So.... cliche.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

I understand were your coming from but, isnt that the whole point of these stories?

To show how tragic it was that these great beings fell into a swift brutal descent into chaos?

Im sure when we read "my first heretic" Itll be the same baseline with the primarch.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Exactly, the hate/dislike comment like i said is just in jest. It's precisely why i rank the Horus Heresy novels as highly as i do


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> I like the fact that BL made Horus into a more likeable and smarter character


Well it was never any different, Horus was always the First Primarch, best and brightest. Thats what makes the Heresy so tragic, because he was the best of the best and he still fell.



Kulzanar said:


> I feel the same about Fulgrim...


Spoilers for _Dark Disciple_:



Slightly off topic, but _Dark Disciple_ is the same. You expect the lone guardsmen and child trudging through the snow to be caught by the Tyranids and/or Word Bearers and brutally slaughtered. I found myself relieved when they reached the spaceport, and shocked but further relieved when the child was able to bypass the crowds and make it onto the last transport off-planet. But then flabbergasted when we learnt that the child carried the Genestealer virus and his escape served only to carry it deeper into the Imperium, which was a fantastic ending to their tale which really engaged the reader.




World Eater XII said:


> Im sure when we read "my first heretic" Itll be the same baseline with the primarch.


Aye, although its likely it'll be done from a different angle. As ADB says in the trailer, Lorgar is really the only Primarch who turns willingly to Chaos when he is of completely sound mind. The tragedy of _The First Heretic_ is the fall of Lorgar to Chaos but I imagine this theme will be based around hatred of the Emperor for his actions, as arguably it is he who drives the Word Bearers into heresy (not only due to the reasons of his chastisement, but moreso due to his Imperial truth being a lie).


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

I'm not yet ready to throw Horus in the 'he fell from grace' pile.

We know that somewhere down the line Horus is going to go 1v1 with the Big E and that he will have the power of chaos behind him.

But who is using who?

I have this feeling that Horus has plans beyond defeating the Emperor and being the play thing of the gods (well except Tzeentch maybe :grin: )

I just hope that we get further insight into post-Davin Horus and his motives before it all ends. 

I suspect he could be the unlikely hero of the Horus Heresy who just had to die.


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## Pathfinder201 (Jun 26, 2010)

The fact that hourus is so likable and a great superhuman guy is why i loved the book so much. Although he does , in my opinion, become an evil person on istavan and kill his master of astropaths and bomb the planet


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## Romolo (Sep 6, 2010)

This is also what makes the first HH trilogy hard for me to read. So many likeable characters dead and gone.


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## X FiftY 1ne (Aug 30, 2010)

Romolo said:


> This is also what makes the first HH trilogy hard for me to read. So many likeable characters dead and gone.


Same here too. I get real attached to some of the characters and most of them just eventually die off. Although it was nice to hear that Loken would be coming back. Was one of the characters I was attached to the most. 

Also, I don't know if some of you felt the same way, but the Remembrancers stuck with me well. I really enjoyed the characters Karkasky, Petronella, and Serena d' Angelus, but they all had to die..:angry:


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I know what you mean. I hated when Solomon I think... got betrayed by lucius. fucking hate that coward

Edit: Solomon Demetrius


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Solomon Demeter(Corrected a bone headed mistake). I liked him too. That is how you can tell a books characers are well developed, you empathise with them. Or loathe the bad guys. I hated lucius more than any. Kharn is a legend though.

That is the strange thing. I have allways been a chaos man but the hh books swing me the other way.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I agree, I liked kharn. He was highly spoken of. Even in the battle of Istavan it did seem he was fighting himself. Though he lost himself.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Solomon Demeter you mean ^^ but yeah he was very likeable aswell, was sad to see him laid down so low by Lucius tricking him into killing his own men. Tarvitz aswell, i just hope hes alive down with Rylanor, he definetly seems to have found some underground bunker, wouldnt make much sense for him to not go down there himself with Vipus.

Decius was hard to see aswell, likeable if not a bit arrogant and immature, still sad to see him kill Sendek aswell. And minor as he was apothecary Vaddon being killed off tending to all the wounded was another one. And Titus Cassar or course,

But yeah as you said, it really gets you attatched to the characters, in part to me because they are loyalists from the traitor legions who never really got a massive amount of fluff their way before now. Every time one of them dies that Legion loses a little bit more of its former glory and loyalty


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

When I got to the betrayal of Sol by Lucius, I was ready to go get some white-out and put a bullet in his head.


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

Speaking about Lucius, I actually liked the character before he back stabbed Sol. He sounded like a very noble character in the novel, then suddenly without warning he just became an asshole. But it was the sacrifice of that character to make the others look cooler. It was a legit sacrifice to me.


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

increaso said:


> I'm not yet ready to throw Horus in the 'he fell from grace' pile.
> 
> We know that somewhere down the line Horus is going to go 1v1 with the Big E and that he will have the power of chaos behind him.
> 
> ...


I will be really disappointed if it turns out the Emperor was just blind to what was going on with the primarchs. I really want the Emperor to have planned the whole thing, understanding that he couldn't make the galaxy a utopia for humanity because they would fall to the same fate as the Eldar, so he specifically engineered what the current 40k universe has become.


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## Fancyxeno21 (Sep 8, 2010)

I agree completely. I must of read the first 3 books of the HH at least 10 times, but every time I still get that same feeling I got when I first read the book. Everytime I read about the death of Torgaddon in my head i scream nooooooooooooooo tarik!! I have a friend who I just got into reading, and even though my friends and I must of spoiled to him what happened a million times, he still texted me when Horus turned screamed in all caps haha.

To top it off, of the 4 friends i have that are into warhammer, 3 of them, plus myself and completely for the emperor, we hate all chaos. We would always have arguements with last friend who is for chaos, a proud follower of the Black Legion. This friend was always saying how Loken was dead and would never come back, so when we found out that Loken is alive, my black templar friend walked up to him in the middle of the hallway at school and smacked him across the face for not believing Loken was alive.

These authors are so incredible that they can make the reader feel like they personally know the character, and when they die or something tragic happens to them, feel bad about it.


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## Xenocide (Aug 19, 2010)

Fancyxeno21 said:


> This friend was always saying how Loken was dead and would never come back, so when we found out that Loken is alive, my black templar friend walked up to him in the middle of the hallway at school and smacked him across the face for not believing Loken was alive.


Your friend takes his 40k very seriously! Incidentally, that's exactly what I felt like doing to Dan Abnett, the demon prince of retcon, when I heard Loken was still alive. Way to suck all the tragedy out Galaxy in Flames Dan.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

I understand why people think Loken should have died, but I don't think its a bad thing that he is still alive, im also hoping that Tarvitz is alive as well. In the end though I think that Loken, Qruze, Tarvitz and Garro will found the Grey Knights and the Deathwatch to serve the Inquisition in protecting mankind.


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## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

I think most of these good guys should have died. It would have made all this HH so much more tragic and showed that even these heroes are just small things in overall of all events happening around them.

It has almost come a standard pattern that this most likable good guy, only matters that he is morally more complicated than his fellow man is always on the side of Emperor and somehow survives against all odds. You can almost see at beginning of these books that ok, this guy will live and this will die because he is bad. Torgaddon death from my point of view was just beautifull, liked him even more than Loken.

I hope Little Horus will be covered more in these books, he was quite interesting and maybe only one of few who changed side but didnt like what he had to do. He was always this supporting character in backround, there is a chance about some nice twists to happen to him if authors are willing to write it.

Almost every Captain were portrayed really well, only gripe comes from Lucius which just looked like utterly childish astartes. Eidolon too was portrayed just maybe little bit too much as totally useless Captain. Maybe he only got onto that position by kissing Fulgrims ass.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yeah Eidolon was always too much of a tool to me, although apparently his martial record is meant to be pretty great. Lucius again, made to be hated.

I'm hoping they develop Little Horus more, i can definetly see him trying to atone somehow. Targaddon was always going to die, right from the start i knew he would be a loyalist with Loken but die. I can also see where people are coming from with Loken living, but i can accept him and Tarvitz surviving, Istvaan is still a massivly tragic without their deaths, true it does add something more but again i can get over it.


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

I am very disappointed to hear that Loken isn't dead (where did this get announced, btw?) The Heresy books are diminished for me knowing that. The tragedy and triumph of the Loken, Torgaddon, and Tarvitz characters is that they died heroically standing against the tides of their own legions, even though their deaths ultimately meant little in the grand scope of the Heresy. To know that one or more of them didn't die during their last stand diminishes that story for me.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

space cowboy said:


> I am very disappointed to hear that Loken isn't dead (where did this get announced, btw?) The Heresy books are diminished for me knowing that. The tragedy and triumph of the Loken, Torgaddon, and Tarvitz characters is that they died heroically standing against the tides of their own legions, even though their deaths ultimately meant little in the grand scope of the Heresy. To know that one or more of them didn't die during their last stand diminishes that story for me.


Dan Abnett confirmed it in one of his Q&A sessions a while back, and I totally agree with you. Loken's death is what gave the tradegy of Isstvan III a personal aspect, we don't care about all the nameless Death Guard who were slaughtered in the trenches or the nameless World Eaters who were caught in the firestorm, we actually cared about Loken and to find out he survived really cheapens the whole Isstvan III incident.

All that we can hope now is that he isn't brought back into a completely unbelievable manner.


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## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

Think that Loken might get another fight with Abaddon and this one is hopefully will be his last. Everyone loved him but he was almost like this perfect "symbol" of great crusade astartes and when HH started he should have passed away. It would make more tragic.

Aximand like i said before, where there is alot of opportunities. He seems to regret and ask forgiveness after killing Torgaddon. Think that he will be on side with bad guys until the end where he does something to help loyalists. Earlier stories have told that Horus lowered his shields to let emperor board his ship, but this sounds little bit too strange. Maybe it was Aximand who lowered those on his last good act of what he did before.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Loken back though im sure will be a very, very different character. He's lost everyone and everything he believed in, probably will be massively injured and in general become a completely broken man. He can still while not defeat Abbadon possibly seak out Aximand and kill him to avenge Tarik, i could see that fight being quite emotional, with Aximand not really wanting to kill Loken and vice versa, with Aximand then apologising/repenting as he dies.

I almost feel Tarvitz being alive detracts more from Istvaan really. He orchestrated the whole defence, Istvaan is Tarvitz last stand, his final act. Tarvitz has no one left to fight to avenge anyone, his main antagonists of course being Lucius and Eidolon, both of which survive the heresy(well Eidolon supposedly)


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## Turkeyspit (Jun 11, 2010)

I see nothing wrong with it, as it truly shows the 'evolution' of Horus. You can very clearly see the differences in hisr between the _Horus Rising _and _False Gods_ - The Mournival sure noticed it. I think that is what was so touching about the scene when Horus asked The Mournival to receive his Oath of the Moment before deploying to Davin. To them it was like a flash of 'the old Horus'.

Obviously different writers were at work here, but I think it was more than just a difference in style. I'm fairly confident that the changes in Horus' character were plotted before the writing began.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Dan Abnett confirmed it in one of his Q&A sessions a while back, and I totally agree with you. Loken's death is what gave the tradegy of Isstvan III a personal aspect, we don't care about all the nameless Death Guard who were slaughtered in the trenches or the nameless World Eaters who were caught in the firestorm, we actually cared about Loken and to find out he survived really cheapens the whole Isstvan III incident.
> 
> All that we can hope now is that he isn't brought back into a completely unbelievable manner.


Well, in M41, barring extraordinary circumstances (Warp Gods, interred in a dreadnaught, stasis field) Loken is decidedly going to be _dead_.

I'm of mixed feelings about this though. Loken was the 'hero' of the first trilogy, and I have no problem with him surviving Istaavan to fight another day. It isn't as if he can really make an impact now. 

- He can't kill Horus
- Abbadon and Lucius both survive the Heresy (in a matter of speaking)
- The Imperium has already been warned of the heresy (cheers Garro!)

Really, what can he do after digging himself out from Istaavan? At best I can see Loken getting revenge by killing off Aximand (in retaliation for 'highlandering' Torgaddon).


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Like i said i dont actually think there is anything wrong with it. Point in case infact was that i love it, twist of phrase


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I wonder if Loken is still alive in the 40k world. I'd like to see Loken beat the living chaos out of Abbadon corpse.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

highly doubt it, the warp, stasis or something else would have to get involved


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

Or in the world of ian watson Food statis baskets


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Frankly, I would love nothing more than Loken to meet an unfortunate demise at the hands of some Tyranid Rippers; the resultant implosion creating the Warhammer Fantasy Universe; except the utterly bizzarre *Tyranidesque* race in _Orcslayer_...

... Really, I loathe the return of ''the originals''. I adored Tarvitz, but his death signified Horus' (and Fulgrim's to an extent) shunning the ''Old order'' that was the Imperium.


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## Fancyxeno21 (Sep 8, 2010)

i was just thinking about Loken, and what if since his body is completely broken that he becomes a dreadnought. I think there were some Imperial Fists sent to istvaan upon Garro speaking with Dorn and they could be the ones who search through the ruins and find Loken, Tarvitz and crew.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

I've been over this before. To quote myself on another website:



> Well, seeing as both ADB and Dan Abnett have confirmed that he is alive...
> 
> It's not so much "hope that he's dead" as "wish that he was dead." The point of the massacre, the betrayal, is greatly dulled and cheapened if Loken, Tarvitz (awesome as he is), Rylanor, and company survive. Sure, sure, almost all of the unnamed loyalist defenders there died...but the named ones, the ones that we can put a face to and care about--oh no, they get their "get out of jail free" plot armor card. They get to fly away and become Grey Knights, or whatever [is planned for them].


Then somebody says that Torgaddon's death is enough to get that feeling of betrayal across, so I riposte...



> I disagree. To me, it is a matter of scale. The Horus Heresy is a cataclysmic rending of brothers, families, and friends on a galaxy-wide scale. Some nameless loyalists, Torgadden, and a named World Eaters captain DO NOT cut it to convey the breadth of the pain and agony that this treachery will bring. On the other hand, killing off every single major loyalist character from the first three books (with the exception of a bare handful of remembrancers and Iacton Qruze) DOES.
> 
> The opening trilogy is to introduce us to 30k and the heresy. How better to do that than to slug the reader so hard in the gut that he/she nearly vomits? This trilogy was never meant to read like standard science fiction: it shouldn't be some mission with low chances of survival, of which most of the most essential characters will pull through. Instead, the story puts them where they end up lamed, stranded sitting ducks; betrayed by their vastly more numerous brethren and sent to die. They are virus bombed, besieged, and then orbitally bombarded.
> 
> ...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Fancyxeno21 said:


> I think there were some Imperial Fists sent to istvaan upon Garro speaking with Dorn and they could be the ones who search through the ruins and find Loken, Tarvitz and crew.


That contingent of Imperial Fists (which was over half the Legion I believe) never actually made it to Isstvan. They were regrouping in the Phall system after their failed attempt to reach Isstvan and were subsequently ambushed by the Iron Warriors Legion before the sons of Perturabo moved onto the Sol System.


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## Fancyxeno21 (Sep 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> That contingent of Imperial Fists (which was over half the Legion I believe) never actually made it to Isstvan. They were regrouping in the Phall system after their failed attempt to reach Isstvan and were subsequently ambushed by the Iron Warriors Legion before the sons of Perturabo moved onto the Sol System.


 
ahh I had no idea. Still, the idea of Loken being a dreadnought is very very awesome


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## Xenocide (Aug 19, 2010)

Roninman said:


> Everyone loved him but he was almost like this perfect "symbol" of great crusade astartes and when HH started he should have passed away.


Excellent point. Loken is the crusade's idealistic side incarnate. The Great Crusade died on Isstvan III and Loken should have died with it. Somewhere in the Elysian Fields Greek tragedians are faceplaming.




Mossy Toes said:


> Some nameless loyalists, Torgadden, and a named World Eaters captain DO NOT cut it to convey the breadth of the pain and agony that this treachery will bring.
> ...
> [T]o have Loken [and others] survive ... turns utter annihilation and desolation into the painful loss of a few friends.


This says it better than I could have.


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## Turkeyspit (Jun 11, 2010)

While I respect what Mossy Toes had to say, I have to disagree.

I don't think Loken surviving cheapens it at all.

Let's be honest: Loken didn't even have a meaningful 'death'. New to the story behind the Heresy, after reading HR, I thought for sure Loken _would_ survive. I had to look it up online (at the time) before I realized he was actually supposed to be dead (and then Dan said he wasn't.../shrug).

Forgive me for forgetting the names (it's been awhile) but the death of that Dreadnaught and the other SM was far more memorable an end than what Loken received (so memorable in fact, I forgot their names ). But what happened to Loken was hardly dramatic or impactful, so finding out that it was an illusion shouldn't really make much of a difference. 

Even Lucius contributed to the overall sense of betrayal (_I_ was chosen to die..WTF, I'm awesome!!!1). His subsequent betrayal of the loyalist forces on the planet during the siege is another vicious barb (especially when you read it from a different perspective in _Fulgrim_).

The concept of the betrayal is not measured solely by the deaths of memorable characters. It was the very act of one Space Marine attacking another Space Marine - brother vs. brother - that defined Horus' act of treachery. On top of that, the _means_ with which he committed this heresy made it all the more sinister. The selection of 'suspect loyalist' marines that were deployed outside of normal procedure, the use of _virus bombs_, a _restricted_ ordinance, only to be followed up by additional bombardment and subsequent siege - that is what should make the gut wrench. Oh yeah, a few million/billion Imperial citizens died in the process, but whatever 

Loken surviving isn't meant to make us feel better about what happened on Istavaan, nor does it minimize the feeling of betrayal. Instead, it gives BL useful tools for dramatic content post-Drop Site.

Someone has to fight Horus and his forces. Which do you think would make a more interesting story: faceless Space Marine guy, or someone who survived Horus' initial act of betrayal?

I can sympathize with people who object to 'hollywood-esque' happy endings, but I don't think that is what we are talking about. We know Loken will not be able to thwart Horus - we know precisely how the Heresy itself comes to an end. But if some BL author spins a tale that is outside current lore (ie, not a major turning point like the DSM) than I would enjoy reading about Loken, Tarvitz, whoever's quest for vengeance far more than some random new SM doing his duty prosecuting traitor marines.

I agree there is a lot that could go wrong with Loken et al surviving the DSM; here is hoping that their potential is not wasted.


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## Roninman (Jul 23, 2010)

I think the main point is that ending of Galaxy in Flames should have put empty and little depressing feelings on readers heads. I hardly had that feeling, death of Torgaddon brought that, but when few pages after it we could almost see that Loken survived, it negated that feeling.

There shouldnt be this type of happy-ending involved at end of this novel. Better should have been that Loken simply survived on complitely other way, or had him killed and if revenge needs to happen, have one his own troops survive and become main character. 

Yes many astartes and civilians got killed there, i didnt feel much about those guys. Main characters death would have brought that feeling but it never happened. Then next book on HH series Flight of Eisenstein again put few captains again surviving Isstvaan. 

Opening trilogy was about tragedy, betrayal and almost utter annihiliation of loyalist forces, but seemed almost all captains on goodside survived. Every hero doesnt really need some kind of heroic last battle, more shock to readers should be just a bolter round on back of his neck. There we should experience true shock if some guys life that we liked so much, ends so fast.


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

To me it cheapens the Heresy because Loken surviving is bad writing. It is a cheap trick that lessens not only the original work, but the past and future works of the same writer. I know many of you will argue because I am probably insulting whichever author is your favorite, but it is a cheap ploy to bring back a dead character, and it invalidates any death that author may write since you now never know if they are truly dead or not.

The purpose of a good tragedy is to have tragic events happen, not to have them undone because you want some bullshit feel good story. That is not what the Heresy is about, nor is it what the 40k universe is about. The 40k universe, and the Heresy story that gives it its foundation, is about how, even when the heroes win, they still lose. The good guys beat Horus? So what, the Imperium limps along as a perverted shadow of the noble goals of the Emperor. Loken surviving flies in the face of the tragedy that is supposed to be unfolding. The heroes are supposed to die for something that could have easily been prevented, and in dumb senseless ways, because that is the reality of warfare. Sometimes a bomb just drops on you while you are in a building and you die, no matter how big a hero you were before, or what good works you planned to perform after the fight.

It is cheap, lazy, and doesn't convey the proper feel of the Heresy as written since the Heresy was conceved, and to say otherwise is to be disingenuous. You may _like_ that Loken lives, but it doesn't make it the right thing to do for the furthering of the story.


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