# I just got massacred (and I love it!)



## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

Lately I have been... Disenchanted with 40k.

Not to boast, but until yesterday I'd lost two games _this year_ (had a few draws here and there too). Almost every game I've played has been against Space Marines. These two facts are not unrelated.

(If you're wondering, one loss was against Dark Eldar, that was fun. The other was the first time I fought Grey Knights with three Psifleman dreads, that was less so, but still more fun than most games).

The Marine armies change Vanilla, Wolves, Blood Angles (Dante-wing-a-ling and regular), Dark Angels (Death and Ravenwing) Chaos you-name-it, but my tactics and my success didn't. Suffice it to say I was getting bored.

Then, my Chaos playing mate turned up with what he affectionately called 'chaoszilla'. Two Daemon Princes, One Greater Daemon, three Dreadnaughts three Defilers and a few Marines hiding somewhere at the back, camped out on an objective.

I jumped at the chance to have a go at that. It'd genuinely never occured to me that a Marine list could be so... interesting? So... not gunning down a load of 3+ bastards and their Land Raider.

I lost. Boy did I lose and it was great. I can't remember the last time I had so much fun playing 40k. (Probably that time I fought Dark Eldar back in... Maybe April?)


I'm not fully sure what the point is that I'm driving at. Partially I'm wondering why Chaos players don't seem to like their codex when it can do fantastic stuff like _that_...

I think mostly it's just a great sense of satisfaction in seeing something other than yet another if-you-didn't-paint-them-I'd-have-no-idea-what-codex-you're-using marine army across the table and sleepwalking to victory because god knows I've perfected my anti-marine tactics.


Marine players: Please don't take this as another Marine hating thread. Take it instead as a plea to try and make your army play differently to everyone else's, if possible (I don't know if other marine codices can).

Non Marine players: Do take this thread as evidence that once in a while you may see something novel across the table. If you do, embrace it.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Sounds like a good game. I am lucky here. Mostly nonmarine players. So, it keeps stuff fresh.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

I'm also a lucky bugger then, because all the Marine players I play against have many varients of their lists that they field. It probably helps that all 15/20 of the group I play in have large armies, both Marine/Human and Xenos ones...the majority would be well over 5K+, hell some are close to 15/20K.


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## olitippo (Dec 5, 2011)

When you get slaughtered it's fun but also awkward when your favourite unit is immobilised and out of range.


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## Supersonic Banana (Jul 23, 2010)

I get sort of the same thing but most people that i play against use Draigo and about ten paladins/terminators and a few extra gubbins and that's about it :/
Fortunately most of them are really great guys and every game's a blast. I'm not a very competitive player (my dice rolls see to that ) but i do like variation and my favourite games are the ones where people are using the most outlandish and fun lists possible. Rcently though my dice have been kicking me in the sack every game and i don't think i've had an average dice roll for a month :laugh: Lol just the other day i rolled 9 1's in a row which has similar chances as the lottery if i'm calculating it right (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6)


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

If you are getting bored, run a simple campaign. We are and it has been outstanding fun. One of the limitations is that you have a certain points total of preselected units to choose your lists from. It makes things interesting when you have to use some non optimal units.
As an aside i tried an alternative list the other week. DemonZilla. 5 monstrous creatures and some bloodcrushers with minimum troops. Seriously fun.


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## aranelthemithra (Nov 1, 2011)

I can see why someone would find facing marines both dull and against the right list, hard to lose to. But I think it should be remembered that not all players will fall back on the mass-rhino lists, or marines stuffed in drop pods to build their lists. 

I want a space marine army... specifically space wolves. But I intend to put the wolf back in space wolf - so I intend to limit myself to a total of two vehicles tops. It's entirely likely I will have one, or perhaps none. 

DE can be just as dull and predictable as space marines, on the flip side of the example. Case in point would be the venom spam lists that people enjoy fielding in an attempt to get auto-wins. 

People look curiously as I put out two raiders, two ravagers and three venoms as the only vehicle components for my 2000 pt DE army. 

But it is true to say that every battle I have participated in since I returned to 40K has involved facing lists I have read in battle reports or on forums like these. 

It's the painful truth of having the internet influence a game. 

Back when I originally played ('89-'90) we had the local games workshop store (where we could scout armies, but would have to guess at their exact composition), white dwarf battle reports and our friends with whom we could geek out about some random composition around which to build an army. The creativity was insane, and the resulting lists often just broken to the extreme. 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if every codex has some gems hidden in them that people have overlooked because they simply haven't bothered to look. 

I encountered something odd a couple of weeks ago when I watched Chaos vs. BA and the Chaos player admitted he had not read his codex...


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

I hate the way that the internet has turned my favourite hobby into mathhammer....

Seriously, I wouldn't even have considered that the Chaos codex was weak before the Internet said so.

But now everyone is saying that you HAVE to use Obliterators, Plague marines and dual-lash winged Daemon Princes to do anything. I think it just sucks.

Personally, I want to use 20 Raptors with an Icon of Nurgle and an Aspiring Champion with a power fist. And I wanna use my Defiler along with my Land Raider and Predator. AND a squad of Berserkers that'll sit in the land raider that will summon a Bloodthirster at some point.

Oh well, the Internet has this way of making people see things as shit...


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

Mathhammer often results in: This unit does more damage on average therefore the others are not worth considering. Actually playing the game with (presumably) sub-optimal units can result in new strategies or playstyles that better suit players and can be used effectively despite reduced straight up power or obvious tactical application. Sometime I want to go find a brand new player who knows little to nothing about the game or just someone who doesn't play at all give him a line of units and tell him to pick 5-7. Then I use those models to make a 1500pt army and play six-seven games against dissimilar armies. If it's not effective then try again from the beginning with a new set of units. By the end of a year of doing that I bet someone could come up with brand new strategies or uses for unused units. Unfortunately budget and time prevents me from trying this at the moment...


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

:wacko:

@Weapon: The internet is not to blame for you not playing the army you want.

@Samules: As a gamer. From boardgames such as powergrid, ticket to ride and chess to several wargames including warhammer, chainmail, battlefleet, and warmachine to online games such as pretty near every FPS in the past 10 years or more, I can tell you from experience, the only thing you get out of playing a noob, is teaching a noob the rules.

Nothing has ever stopped anyone from trying out any of the armies that they have wanted to run other than themselves. Also, mathhammer is a joke. It completely fails to take into account how armies work together and what units can be used to shore up other units. Not to mention the fact that all you are getting are the statistical average of dice. 

There is more to the game than that. Less in Warhammer than other wargames, but still more. 

I have a 12.5 to 1.5 to 1 win/tie/loss average this year and I have never used the same list twice.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Not trying to be a dick, but I am in the asshole of the world right now and there is a diverse enough community that I can still get in good games. 

If you want to try things out, do it. Just accept the fact that you might lose. If your not afraid of losing, I see no reason why you aren't trying out these new tactics that you dream up.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Well as far as i am concerned, it matters not how powerful your opponent is or how much cheese he/she has, they will go down in a screaming heap if they have rotten dice rolls.

The one absolute fact of this game, no matter how great your army is, your list is and your tactics are, it means nothing if you are cursed with the God of Ones.

There is no such thing in this game as a practiced dice thrower, you can't practice for hours to give you great dice numbers.

The whole game is based on just plain old dumb blind luck.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Achaylus72 said:


> Well as far as i am concerned, it matters not how powerful your opponent is or how much cheese he/she has, they will go down in a screaming heap if they have rotten dice rolls.
> 
> The one absolute fact of this game, no matter how great your army is, your list is and your tactics are, it means nothing if you are cursed with the God of Ones.
> 
> ...


I disagree. There is an element of chance, but if all you see is luck, there is no way anyone can explain it to you.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Weapon said:


> ...dual-lash winged Daemon Princes...


what internet are you using. The internet advises against lash because it is useless against mechanized armies which is most of what you will be facing (if you are facing the armies that the interwebs advise). 

Of course, for the chaos list to be weak, you have to be playing against minimaxed armies. if you are playing against beer and pretzels (read as fun) level gamers, chaos is actually super strong. But go up against spammed vehicles played by an elite level gamer and say goodbye to your chaos.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> Well as far as i am concerned, it matters not how powerful your opponent is or how much cheese he/she has, they will go down in a screaming heap if they have rotten dice rolls.
> 
> The one absolute fact of this game, no matter how great your army is, your list is and your tactics are, it means nothing if you are cursed with the God of Ones.
> 
> ...


This sounds like the kind of drivel that critics of professional poker spew. It's not just luck, there is alot more too it than that. Sure if you rolled 1s every time for a whole game, it's gonna cause you to lose, but this won't happen statistically. If you are a good player with sound tactics and strategy, you will on average win and your loses will be statistical outliers.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

I will say I've lost games before due to uncharacteristically bad dice rolling, but it's probably one in every 30-40 games that turn out that way. The majority of time the game seems to swing back and forth. I have a bout of bad dice, then my opponent does, etc. in the end the great majority of the time it balances out.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Uber Ork said:


> I will say I've lost games before due to uncharacteristically bad dice rolling, but it's probably one in every 30-40 games that turn out that way. The majority of time the game seems to swing back and forth. I have a bout of bad dice, then my opponent does, etc. in the end the great majority of the time it balances out.


Yeah, this is what I see the most. Sometimes I roll so bad I feel I lost it, but then my opponent does the same thing and what I thought was doomed goes right back into the win zone.


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

@Loki: Yes it is. My case would revolve around how much happier I was before I knew of the existence of math-hammer and how competitive some people can be.

EDIT: I may have mis-read your post... It has certainly influenced it in a bad way and I will blame it accordingly.

FUCK YOU INTERNET! 

(Joke)

@Eleven: The Internet acknowledges the weaknesses of the dual lash prince, but is loathe to provide a better alternative. All they can say is that the Chaos Lord sucks and that a Sorceror is a suitable replacement for a Daemon Prince if you don't have one. They might suggest that one uses a Daemon Prince with the Mark Of Nurgle and Warptime too, but suggesting two different forms of the same unit is hardly promoting variety.

I have the distinct feeling that this is going to turn into an argument and for the record, I'd rather avoid that.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Weapon said:


> @Eleven: The Internet acknowledges the weaknesses of the dual lash prince, but is loathe to provide a better alternative. All they can say is that the Chaos Lord sucks and that a Sorceror is a suitable replacement for a Daemon Prince if you don't have one. They might suggest that one uses a Daemon Prince with the Mark Of Nurgle and Warptime too, but suggesting two different forms of the same unit is hardly promoting variety.


There are "better" options (mostly options that cost less, like Sorcerers who can hang out in a Rhino and cast spells from the hatch). Your average "expert" in the army list section swears by dual Lash Princes because that's what they've read time and again for years to the point where it's become the truth (in most people's eyes at least).

As a whole, the entire Codex is crap so it really doesn't much matter what people use.


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

Some of my most fun games have also been ones I've lost. Luckily, the trend around my area has been also a decrease of Marines (though I was once guilty, and am currently trying to repent by getting rid of my BA) especially with the slew of new, solid non-Imperial codecies to be released.

And the _whole_ codex isn't crap, KD, I mean 'zerkers and Plague marines are good, the interwebs told me so!


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> As a whole, the entire Codex is crap so it really doesn't much matter what people use.


I could not disagree with you more profoundly.

The objective of the game is to win, but the _point_ of the game... The reason any of us show up at the club/store is for both people to have _fun_.

I had more fun playing that chaoszilla army than I have had in 40k for months. The other player showed every sign of having a blast too. That makes it a _perfect_ codex.

The new Grey Knight codex is not fun at all to play against and since m'local GK player is painting Blood Angels as we speak I suspect he's not having much fun playing with them (he stuck by his GK through Codex: Daemonhunters, even selling his Eldar army because he just liked playing GK more). _That_ makes Codex: Grey Knights a crap codex even if it makes the powergamers' knickers wet.


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## GoRy (Apr 1, 2008)

I was the same mate - standard armies every week - then, lo and behold, 2 weeks ago I was destroyed by a 14year old with a bunch of orks covered by an inch of dark angels green. And I mean destroyed - his WB took out 2 tactical squads, company champion and chapter master before getting pulverised by a dreadnought. Barely. He still immobalised it!

And it was great fun!


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## GeneralSturnn (Feb 20, 2011)

"Maybe all we Ork boyz do is fight an' die! but yu kno' wat? we'z good at it! an' we'z still gonna win!" -Warlord Gorgutz


All I ever do is lose, but as long as my opponent doesn't have an:"Oh, look, I wiped your army off the map in 5 turns or less"


give me a good fight, I don't mind losing, give me a fight like Orks get with Tau and I'll be abit sore about it grumbling:"Dey don't know how ta' fight proppa' "


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Played my fatecrusher list recently against tyranids. Was the worst rolling ever. Didnt get my prefered wave, both bs5 DPS rolled 1's for their bolts two turns in a row, fateweaver didnt show up until turn FIVE, and half my crushers and BT until turn 4. Talk about a blowout. I still had a blast though as my opponent sympathized with the dice gods making an example out of me, and the truely retarded nature of daemon deployment.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

There is losing and there is losing. A guy at my local GW always loses with his IG army, because he just plays really badly. He's now known as Field Marshal Haig... Just throwing more troops into the meat grinder.

I'm hoping he improves, otherwise he might struggle to find a game.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Azezel said:


> The new Grey Knight codex is not fun at all to play against and since m'local GK player is painting Blood Angels as we speak I suspect he's not having much fun playing with them (he stuck by his GK through Codex: Daemonhunters, even selling his Eldar army because he just liked playing GK more). _That_ makes Codex: Grey Knights a crap codex even if it makes the powergamers' knickers wet.


That's a rather one-sided story there. I've used daemonhunters before, and I thought that codex was a bit... boring. It was a monobuild affair that relied mostly on inducting regiments from other codexes because there were almost no other options if you wanted to stand any chance of achieving the objective of winning (not the goal of having fun). 

At least the new book allows me to field my favorite unit type (the actual grey knights) as a cohesive army. Don't generalise here because you don't like playing against grey knights or your buddy doesn't like the new codex either. Personal preference as a base for judging the quality of a codex is a very poor tool. 

The quality of a codex is it's ability to make many different builds that are all viable (as in, you won't auto-lose, nor auto-win) on the table. Codex: GK allows several powerfull builds that aren't auto-win or auto-lose. So all in all, I'd say that's a pretty solid codex. Out of all the 5th edition codexes, only nids failed to deliver in this regard (my own viewpoint here). 

As far as mathhammer goes and the dominance of it on the interwebs... I do wonder sometimes how many of those games are fought on nearly empty tables, void of any "game-changing" terrain. I actually know people who get nerveous before a game starts if there is too much terrain on the board and they fear that their army list won't function anymore because of the terrain loadout. 

Before my long break, we had loads of fun in our games and campaigns because my buddy had shitloads of different terrain to make interesting setups... I know that's why I've been working on my table to get it nice and full with plenty of options for interesting games. That's what I personally am trying to recreate at my own place.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

@weapon: like I said, not trying to be a dick. 

OP: I don't mind losing. The thing I look for most in a game in a challenge and novelty. 

In regards to marine lists, I find it odd that there is often little novelty. I have a copy of the codex (no army though) and there looks like that are a ton of viable builds.

Haven't read Grey Knights yet, but from what I heard, it seemed to have a lot of possible builds as well.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

elmir said:


> Out of all the 5th edition codexes, only nids failed to deliver in this regard (my own viewpoint here).


From the rumours of 6th that I have been hearing, they might become good again. Move through cover = assault grenades would be AMAZING!!!!

Preferred Enemy on shooting would make a hive tyrand pretty nasty.

Etc. 

Got fingers crossed. They are still my first and favourite army.


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

I sure hope so for Nid players. 6th will most likely shake things up quite a bit. 

One of the most interesting changes that was rumoured, was the change to rapidfire (some of the chaos rumours also hint at it, saying thousands sons would be awesome with AP3 rapidfire bolters). It's rumoured that rapidfire would change to:

-stationary = 2 shots at maximum range
-moving= 1shot at maximum range or 2 shots at 12". 

That alone is enough to put certain armies on the map again and would mean a serious blow to the greyknight dominance of 18-24" firepower. Unfortunatly, it would also be a kick in the teeth for tyranid swarms.

Oh well... wait and see I guess.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

darklove said:


> There is losing and there is losing. A guy at my local GW always loses with his IG army, because he just plays really badly. He's now known as Field Marshal Haig... Just throwing more troops into the meat grinder.


One of my two beefs with the IG book is that waves of canon-fodder isn't an effective style. It's a huge part of the Guard fluff and I'd like to see it as a viable thing on the table. (For those few who have the testicular fortitude to paint 300 conscripts)

My other beef with Guard starts with 'V' and ends with a 'endetta' or 'alkyrie', but that's another thread... Another, better thread.



elmir said:


> Personal preference as a base for judging the quality of a codex is a very poor tool.





elmir said:


> I'd say that's a pretty solid codex. Out of all the 5th edition codexes, only nids failed to deliver in this regard (my own viewpoint here).


Damn you, Irony!

More seriously, the quality of a codex can only be a subjective matter. An we both stand by our viewpoints and support them with relevant evidence there can be no wrong judgement.

I stand by what I said. I don't much enjoy fighting new Grey Knights, and the only person I know who plays them doesn't seem to get the fun out of it that he used to. (And he never used anything but Grey Knights when he used Codex: Daemonhunters - he wasn't using the Inquisitorial riffraff then and he's not now).


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## elmir (Apr 14, 2011)

Yeah, that was a bit poorly worded. That little "(my own viewpoint here)" refers to how I judge the quality of a codex  And I do realise that is a subjective stance, because it's what I personally look for in a new codex. That's why I mentioned it in that post. 

But yeah... judging the quality of a codex is always subjective. I just grew tired of 40k in general a couple of years ago because I always ended up with the same list selection because it was the most effective (that's a codex problem). 

The only thing that kept it interesting was the large variation in terrain... and after a few years, even that ran a bit stale because my buddy stopped making new stuff (simply for storage reasons).


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## aranelthemithra (Nov 1, 2011)

I'll say one thing here (in multiple parts, over several points and outlined over several paragraphs...  ) 

Codices comparisons or evaluations. 

There are a number of ways to evaluate your codex. 

First off, does the story capture you? Do you care about your army more for reading the fluff? Some might believe this doesn't have a direct correlation between fluff and game enjoyment and success, but I can tell you - my wife read through her necron codex and couldn't stop telling me how horribly screwed over the necron were and how she wants to play with them to get them the sweet release of death (she's optimistic about her chances). 

Two - many of us pick our codex based on the appearance of one (or more) models from the army - usually the character that will lead the army. I picked up DE because Lileth intrigued me - half naked chick with 2 knives in a world of heavy bolters??? - and the overall look and feel of the army is very cool. So does an army from your codex enter the field and look good doing so.

Three - cost. Grey Knights are a good option for those seeking a second or third army because in terms of model costs, the codex allows for cheap, but highly competitive armies without having to invest another $600. Space wolves can be built a similar way if you care to. 

Four - Competitiveness. Is the codex capable of offering a competitive list. This is not a truly subjective consideration. There is plenty of evidence out there (back the internet again) as to whether a codex produces competitive lists. However, trusting the internet will of course lead to you overlooking multiple of the codices because you will be told they are just bad. 

Five - Variety. There is nothing worse than having 3,000 pts of models as your army investment only to discover that you will never use 1000 pts of it because the codex devalues those models so far that they were just a waste of money and you would just have a worse experience for using them. You want all units in your codex to be at least interesting and that they satisfy a role. Using DE as an example again - I have been told numerous times that reavers are bad. I like how they look, I like what I think I can do with them... and they cost me money. Not having the option to use them (against the advice of the internet in general) would irritate me. However, the truth is, that reavers are quite successful if you use them right and can pay for their points. The internet would tell you that for the cost of 6 reavers, a venom full of blaster-wielding trueborn is the only option you should be considering. I also have scourges - which I can exchange with those reavers. Woot! Variety. 

*Dealing with the Internet*

The Internet does several things which are beneficial to a game such as this, but also introduces some challenges. 

Netlisting - In truth, netlisting is a double edged sword. Some people who net list their armies are usually those who simply aren't very good and are looking for an edge and have the money to just buy a list that has proven successful elsewhere. Those people offer little to the gaming scene and value a fast track to winning over the experience of growing your army, learning to play your army and indeed developing an attachment to that army. Of course, with netlist in hand, grey models galore recently constructed spewing out of their sparkling army carrier on to the table, those players usually proceed to lose because beyond the very basic concepts of the army tactics, they are completely unable to adjust to the changing variables of the game. 

Netlisting for new players is more of a shopping list. I, for example, knew that 40K is a heck of an investment. Indeed, I have to have a well paying job to seriously have considered re-starting the hobby. I knew I wanted to do DE, but I didn't know much about them. To wisely invest, I looked across the internet and looked for models that frequently showed up in lists with Lileth. This did of course send me on a wild snipe hunt for bloodbride figures  but in general, I have 3000 pts of highly flexible options that all synergize together even though I myself did not use any of the various netlists out there - I just made sure that I invested in the core units. I am doing the same for Space Wolves. I have discovered that while Blood Claws are entertaining, the core of the army infantry is grey hunters - even though I myself will be fielding a list with over 40 wolves in it - but the grey hunters are still a solid investment say over those blood claws. 

Continuing the theme of double edged - the internet provides forums (such as those found on this site) which can both offer a feeling of community, but also propagate the values of internet wisdom. I have seen many times people told not to do something because it's just wrong. Well, "wrong" in this case, means not conventional. Indeed that wolf list I am referring to has been interestingly received. One person has said it simply won't work (drop pod spam is the only way to go), another has said it could be interesting (giving it the benefit of the doubt), and another who has faced a list that is similar locally said they had NO idea how to handle the list and was wiped from the board in 4 turns. 

So internet - reduces barrier of entry to the game by offering people a way to avoid many of the newbie errors (especially for army investment), and builds a strong feeling of global community around the entire hobby.

Or awful place full of opinionated, mean people that crush creativity and support the concept of running dull, repetitive army lists... hmmm

In short - which this is anything but - there is room for rogue lists. Being rogue can completely confuse your opponent. I encourage it. Indeed, telling someone you are running Blood Angels will put masses of misinformation in to their heads... if you build your Blood Angels to be completely different than the norm


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

Good post aranelthemithra!

Rep


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## aranelthemithra (Nov 1, 2011)

Thank you  ... sorry it was a bit of novel though lol


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Azezel said:


> I could not disagree with you more profoundly.
> 
> The objective of the game is to win, but the _point_ of the game... The reason any of us show up at the club/store is for both people to have _fun_.


It can be really hard to do that with a crappy Codex. Some people pursue the point of the game (which is fun) by trying to win which can be really hard with subpar tools.


> I had more fun playing that chaoszilla army than I have had in 40k for months. The other player showed every sign of having a blast too. That makes it a _perfect_ codex.


No, that makes it one person that enjoyed playing with it because he enjoys himself when he has a bunch of big scary things that rampage across the table and probably isn't too bothered with winning games. A few people had fun playing _Fire Warrior_, that awful low quality Tau FPS game a few years ago. That doesn't make it a good game.



> The new Grey Knight codex is not fun at all to play against and since m'local GK player is painting Blood Angels as we speak I suspect he's not having much fun playing with them (he stuck by his GK through Codex: Daemonhunters, even selling his Eldar army because he just liked playing GK more). _That_ makes Codex: Grey Knights a crap codex even if it makes the powergamers' knickers wet.


It seems to me that this Grey Knight player has become so dismayed that people hate playing his army (probably because it kicks their asses) that he's been forced to spend on an entirely new army so he can get some games in. I seriously doubt it's his first choice.

The Grey Knight Codex is great because there are beautiful models and tons of choices in building an army that's effective on the tabletop.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> A few people had fun playing _Fire Warrior_, that awful low quality Tau FPS game a few years ago. That doesn't make it a good game.


It was such a bad game, but probably still my favourite 40k novel. :biggrin:

The more I hear about Grey Knights, the more I suddenly want to play them. Maybe I will make them my first good guy army. Could use a break from the ranks of evil for a little while. 

I like the guy on the chair who can kill his own guys. Sounds pretty funny.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> the core of the army infantry is grey hunters - even though I myself will be fielding a list with over 40 wolves in it


"There are no wolves on fenris."

(repping the 1st person to explain that line and who said it)



> The more I hear about Grey Knights, the more I suddenly want to play them. Maybe I will make them my first good guy army. Could use a break from the ranks of evil for a little while.


If what is being said about rapid fire in 6th is true, GK will lose their mid range dominance.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Ravner298 said:


> "There are no wolves on fenris."
> 
> (repping the 1st person to explain that line and who said it)
> 
> If what is being said about rapid fire in 6th is true, GK will lose their mid range dominance.


Magnus says it because the wolves that accompany the space wolves are in his opinion not really wolves. They are something else, can't remember what.

Bit of joke honestly. I like the models, but I am probably going Chaos after this.  I really love the look of that spider thing in the heavy support and I love the fluff behind obliterators. Though, what I really want to make is a noise marine army. There heresy novels sold me on them fluff wise.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Close enough, i'll rep you anyways just because you're thinking about coming to the dark side

/internet highfive


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

:victory: :grin:


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

lokis222 said:


> Magnus says it because the wolves that accompany the space wolves are in his opinion not really wolves. They are something else, can't remember what.


I always thought it was they aren't really wolves, but those who have been mutated/geneseed failures.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

gally912 said:


> I always thought it was they aren't really wolves, but those who have been mutated/geneseed failures.


Those are the wulfen. IIRC. 

The wolves, IIRC, are either warp creatures or altered genestock from when they settled the planet or the spirits of dead space wolves. Its from the heresy novels that deal with Magnus the Red. I read those awhile ago, so I don't remember exactly.


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## Weapon (Mar 5, 2009)

Yet another one perverted to Chaos...

The spider thing you're talking about is known as a Defiler by the way Loki. And I've just had another look at the Obliterator fluff in the Chaos codex... they used to be (mostly) TECHMARINES? That is some pretty cool fluff and I was wondering what happened to the techmarines of the Legions. I didn't think that they'd gone the way of Talos from the Night Lord's trilogy, where he simply stopped doing his Apothecary duties. Especially seeing as techmarines have some sort of religious deal going on with machines and wouldn't give up on them that easily..

Also, the Flawless host are meant to either use the Emperor's Children's gene seed or are a splinter group of them. You might want to look into them. They tend to use combat drugs rather than have a load of Noise marines though, so you could just stick with the Emperor's Children instead. The Angels of Ecstasy are another one, but they're just dedicated to Slaanesh and don't have anything else in common with the Emperor's Children I think.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Yeah, I read the codex a few years ago, but I was in the middle of painting my orks and tyranids. Now I am on to Necrons, but painting is going really fast. Looks like I will have over 2000pts painted by the end of January.

My goal is to try and have about 2000pts in all the evil armies. Though, and this is why I have been putting it off, a core Chaos army, with a Nurgle faction, a Slaaneesh faction, a Tzenntch faction, and a Khorne faction to round out the numbers is intimidating to buy and paint

It is also the reason I haven't started Chaos Daemons yet. I would like to do it so that I have a core army in each god and the ability to create a decent mixed list. 

Next to tyranids, Chaos has the best models.


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## aranelthemithra (Nov 1, 2011)

lokis222 said:


> Yeah, I read the codex a few years ago, but I was in the middle of painting my orks and tyranids. Now I am on to Necrons, but painting is going really fast. Looks like I will have over 2000pts painted by the end of January.
> 
> My goal is to try and have about 2000pts in all the evil armies. Though, and this is why I have been putting it off, a core Chaos army, with a Nurgle faction, a Slaaneesh faction, a Tzenntch faction, and a Khorne faction to round out the numbers is intimidating to buy and paint
> 
> ...


Necron, if you have read the codex, are misunderstood, not evil  

I mean, they were tricked in to metal bodies and had their souls eaten. Seems a little messed up if you ask me.


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

They are more like Faust. They are tricked into the bodies because the want to wipe out a race that they started a war with and who had the bad taste to actually beat the necrons. 

Then there is the fluff on illuminor. They aren't as evil as they used to be, but getting the raw deal from the devil when you enter into a contract on the basis of genocide doesn't make you misunderstood. It makes you a complete bastard who probably got what was coming to you. Especially if you taken into account the mass murder of the entire artisan class.... against their will at that. At least the Imps didn't murder their entire population.

I did prefer the old fluff and painted my models around it, but they are still pretty nasty.


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## aranelthemithra (Nov 1, 2011)

lokis222 said:


> Especially if you taken into account the mass murder of the entire artisan class.... against their will at that.


is there a class out there that has been mass murdered with their consent? 

I still consider necrons as misunderstood ;P


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

aranelthemithra said:


> is there a class out there that has been mass murdered with their consent?
> 
> I still consider necrons as misunderstood ;P


In the past, some human sacrifices probably went willingly and by modern definitions, you can't consent to being killed, so yes.. However, that is beside the point. I don't really consider them misunderstood, buy hey, if we really want to go there, maybe Stalin and Hitler were really nice guys. Just.... misunderstood. :laugh:


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## aranelthemithra (Nov 1, 2011)

lokis222 said:


> In the past, some human sacrifices probably went willingly and by modern definitions, you can't consent to being killed, so yes.. However, that is beside the point. I don't really consider them misunderstood, buy hey, if we really want to go there, maybe Stalin and Hitler were really nice guys. Just.... misunderstood. :laugh:












'nuff said


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

gally912 said:


> I always thought it was they aren't really wolves, but those who have been mutated/geneseed failures.


That is my interpretation of it. In 'a thousand sons' from the HH series, Magnus says it a few times, one of the times the only person in his presence to look at him and acknowledge it was infact a ferisian wolf accompanying the space wolves around them. There was something later in the novel during the battle where a wolf tackled ahriman, and when he looked at it he didnt see a wolf but rather its genetic core/DNA or something or other, and it wasn't an animal.

Anyone recall the exact fluff on wulfen? Aren't they halfway between? Something about a faliure in their gene seed, much like the thousand son's 'flesh curse'?


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

aranelthemithra said:


> 'nuff said


They are all just misunderstood. WHAT ARE THEY FIGHTING FOR!!!!!:friends: They should all be BBF. :laugh:


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## Minizke1 (Feb 7, 2010)

In regards to your request to play differently....I don't use tactical squads or terminator squads, nor have I ever considered taking a land raider. You're welcome.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

If you are bored beating the snot out of all the kiddies in your area, you should try traveling to some other stores and playing. You might find some better competition in other areas. Or, take a break and play WHFB or BFG for a while.

I pretty much quit playing in games less than 2,000pts a while ago because I was bored with the simple ease of those small games. I'd say most of the games I've played in for the past year have been over 10k total pts. It definitely changed the game for me, because you cannot win a game by yourself when playing 3 x 3. You have to be able to play as a team, which brings a whole new aspect to the game: teamwork.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

jaysen said:


> I pretty much quit playing in games less than 2,000pts a while ago because I was bored with the simple ease of those small games. I'd say most of the games I've played in for the past year have been over 10k total pts. It definitely changed the game for me, because you cannot win a game by yourself when playing 3 x 3. You have to be able to play as a team, which brings a whole new aspect to the game: teamwork.


Yeah, team games add an entirely new dimension to 40k which really makes it fun.


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

jaysen said:


> If you are bored beating the snot out of all the kiddies in your area, you should try traveling to some other stores and playing. You might find some better competition in other areas. Or, take a break and play WHFB or BFG for a while.


If that was aimed at me, at 28 I'm actually the youngest person at my club, and the one whose been playing 40k the shortest time.

And going elsewhere to play would involve a £50 ferry ticket each time.

That's why I did pick up WHFB, which I'm currently enjoying far more than 40k due to the variety of opposition.


I really, really cannot be arsed to play 40k over 2'000 points (3'000 if it's doubles, 1'500 per person) though. It takes so much longer, and isn't any more fun than a regular game. Slightly less so, in fact, given the longer periods of standing around waiting.


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## Yllib Enaz (Jul 15, 2010)

Azezel said:


> If that was aimed at me, at 28 I'm actually the youngest person at my club,


I am fairly sure you are not as it happens


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## aranelthemithra (Nov 1, 2011)

Yllib Enaz said:


> I am fairly sure you are not as it happens


I am fairly sure that this is an unhelpful post and that the age of another member is not up for debate. Lets stay adult and keep the discussion on topic. 

Thanks.


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## Yllib Enaz (Jul 15, 2010)

aranelthemithra said:


> I am fairly sure that this is an unhelpful post and that the age of another member is not up for debate. Lets stay adult and keep the discussion on topic.
> 
> Thanks.


In fairness I wasnt debating his age (although the my post was unclear about that I agree), I was just pointing out that he is in fact not the youngest member of the club


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## Azezel (May 23, 2010)

aranelthemithra said:


> I am fairly sure that this is an unhelpful post and that the age of another member is not up for debate. Lets stay adult and keep the discussion on topic.
> 
> Thanks.


Yllib is a mate (chap who learned me to play, in fact) and aparantly knows something I don't (Perhaps even more than one thing)- I cheerfully withdraw my claim to the dubious honour of being the youngest player. Point was: I'm not actually picking on kids...


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## Yllib Enaz (Jul 15, 2010)

Azezel said:


> Yllib is a mate (chap who learned me to play, in fact) and aparantly knows something I don't (Perhaps even more than one thing)- I cheerfully withdraw my claim to the dubious honour of being the youngest player. Point was: I'm not actually picking on kids...


He is quite right on all counts there


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