# Ye Olde Argument (PFs Vs PWs/PAs/PMs)



## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

so 6th has come around and we have seen (or heard) the diversification of the power weapons.

For Marine armies i do not see much of a change for anything PFs are still better at hurting MCs and Vehicles, while PWs (of sorts) have seen their role become even harder to argue for tactically.

The only real change i see is if you are I5 (since FC's nerf means that your faster than 90ish+% of the game on both the charge & getting charged) but now you are still fighting the arguments of last edition (harder to kill stuffs)

Xenos armies are slightly better/worse pending the codex (War scythes are scary as F*ck) with the new rules.

lets do a run down

Power Fists
Pros
Sx2
AP2
can hurt vehicles & MCs more reliably
most of the time no FNP save
5/6 chance of wounding whatever your going against (usually)

Cons
I1
limited number of attacks

Thunder Hammer
Pros 
Sx2
AP2
Concussion (or whatever its called) makes your opponent I1
5/6 chance of wounding whatever your going against (usually)

Cons
I1 (can be mitigated so its not as drastic a con compared to PFs)
limited number of attacks

Power Swords
Pros 
go at I
can usually get paired with a second CCW with ease
cheaper than PFs
AP3

Cons
harder at wounding stuffs
AP3 (is in both because they do Sh*t all against 2+ now)
do nothing against walkers

Power Axes
Pros 
S+1
can usually get paired with a second CCW with ease
cheaper than PFs
AP2

Cons
go @ I1
hard-ish at wounding big stuffs (MCs)
still do nothing against walkers (unless its AV10)
still hard-ish to hurt vehicles

Power Mauls
Pros 
can usually get paired with a second CCW with ease
cheaper than PFs
Concussion ability

Cons
harder at wounding stuffs
AP4 (because they do Sh*t all against 2/3+ now)
still do nothing against walkers (unless its AV10)
still hard to hurt vehicles

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with this quick look we can effectively agree that PFs/THs are still the best choice for almost all armies

followed up by Power Axes because of both the AP2 factor and the S+1 benefit. they also got arguably the most fair update to 6th. (IG blob sargents?) 

Power Swords & Mauls are now arguably worse than what they were in 5th, since they are now worthless against 2+ saves.

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But what are the arguments for taking non PFs/Ths/PAs as a whole? Save points - just take an Axe?


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

No power spears?


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

I only choose my weapons by choice of looks anyway, everything, no matter how shit it appears has a use against something, don't care if a power sword can't hurt terminators, shockingly they are not that common


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I find it curious that you can use a lightning claw and a thunder hammer now and get the extra attack for 2 ccw.


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

I agree with Sakura, I mostly choose my load outs on what looks cooler. If I am choosing for effectiveness though I always go fist, just because I like the security it offers against higher toughness targets. 


And I like fisting. . . :spiteful:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Sakura_ninja said:


> I only choose my weapons by choice of looks anyway, everything, no matter how shit it appears has a use against something, don't care if a power sword can't hurt terminators, shockingly they are not that common


Currently, anyway.

As for equipment, I'm not too sure as to why you would choose a PFist over a PAxe (or any other variant, I like the spears, personally), Pistol and Meltabomb. On MEQ's, Sx2 is S8. On Eldar and Guard, its S6 over S5 and additional attack. With Spears, MEQ's have a S5 AP3 charge with 4 Attacks, at Initiative.

Of course, you could use Pfist and Combi-Flamer on MEQ, but compare the 20pts for the above option compared to 35, on top of the 31 you've already paid for the Marine sergeant, who can get challenged out of the fight (either rendering the Pfist pointless, or getting him killed before he can do anything).

PFists et al should personally be used on units which get access to them from the base, or have multiple wounds to back up should they get attacked, or even the ability to switch between Initiative step attacks or the Pfist.

I like the SM Captain with LClaw and Pfist combo. For example, try on a Keeper of Secrets - it's going first anyway, so hit it with Hammer fist turn, I1 next turn, switch to Claw, you're going first with I5, rerolls to wound, and as mentioned, he gains the additional attack for 2 Specialist weapons.


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## Shady ed (Sep 9, 2010)

Sakura_ninja said:


> I only choose my weapons by choice of looks anyway, everything, no matter how shit it appears has a use against something, don't care if a power sword can't hurt terminators, shockingly they are not that common


 
And being that they are now harder to kill compared to last edition there is absolutely no chance they will become more common right?:smoke:


That being said I only build all my marines to what I like the looks of, then work out all the points and tactics to use later.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

For vanilla marines I reckon the answer is the same as it was last edition- none of the above. 

Directed hits and challenges make it much easier to get rid of the sarge, and krak grenades are sweet for 90% of your vehicle hunting requirements. AND their ability to fall back out of combat can be used with impunity now that they can auto-rally within 6" of your opponent. 

Spend the points on more guns/terminators instead.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Shady ed said:


> And being that they are now harder to kill compared to last edition there is absolutely no chance they will become more common right?:smoke:


Why would they be?, an army of terminators as an example isn't as flexible as a list of multiple troop types, and once you used it once it is very easily countered in the future by people, so it simply isn't a viable choice of army to take heavy number expensive models, so nobody will do an entire force as it simply isn't viable at all and never has been against flexible lists (so the opposite of tourney/competitive lists)

They may be taken by more people, maybe you'll see the odd extra squad pondering about the table, but so what?, 2+ can be ignored by allot more than just power axes, and from far greater ranges


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Terminators are going to become more common for the simple fact that it just got harder to kill them for many armies.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

scscofield said:


> Terminators are going to become more common for the simple fact that it just got harder to kill them for many armies.


Like who?
Other marines have plentiful access to ap2/1 weapons and multiple shot weapons, and can do horde armies quite well.

Guard, see above

Orks have mass numbers and mass attacks, this has always been bad for terminators

Tyranids see above

Necrons have mass firepower again, and can seriously hamper transportation

Tau, see above

Eldar/dark eldar have more speed, manouvaribility and fine shooting and combat abilities.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Yep you win, have fun with this thread, I refuse to be part of you derailing another thread with your view on a game you have quit playing.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Ok, I think its a point, if mass 2+ save armies were that powerful why has pure deathwing not been #1 at competitions?, you can't claim its only because of power swords, and every army has allot of stuff capable with dealing with 2+ saves, especially now at 2000pts = 2FOC


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

I think the argument for taking non p.f/t.h/p.a weapons is completely dependent on how and who you play, regular power weapons let you strike at initiative which is grand against light armoured foes and saves you points, if you come up against heavy troops like termies you can do what Sakura said, either try to avoid them or swamp/shoot the shit out of them, it will all come down to play style and tailoring your army to specific enemies as always.

Personally I like to keep things fluffy, though not to a degree where I'll always get my ass handed to me I'm not that fluffy! I think you will see a surge of termie lists that will soon dry up as people see how to counter it, but I think people will start looking to include some or more now that they are harder to kill. But as always try to stay flexible best you can. two cents from an amature!


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## shaggy (Jul 9, 2009)

scscofield said:


> I find it curious that you can use a lightning claw and a thunder hammer now and get the extra attack for 2 ccw.


That rule was in 5th too. Other thn twin lightning claws or Calgar's two power fists, it never came up. I guess it's such a big deal now because you finally read the rules


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

No the 5th version it had to be two of the same specialist weapon.

Edit: 5th ed book, pg 42 Two different special weapons entry at bottom of page. This restriction is gone now.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Because in the past, the ability to ignore 2+ Saves were as simple as getting close and hitting them with power weapons.

Terminators could not get close to lowly guard squads as they were afraid of running into 30 Power Weapon attacks, and relying on a 5++ to keep them alive. Assault Terminators with the 3++ were much more reliable.

Now, to deal with a 2+ Armour Save, you have to rely on shooting - of which there is either Plasma (short ranged, gets hot, and no longer immune to gets hot on vehicles), ordnance (limited range or fragile), or anti-tank weaponry a-la lascannons (one shot), or use massed powerfists - typically only available on Terminator-esque troops anyway.

Other than that, you have aside from massed powerfists and shooting, the following methods of dealing with them.

Eldrad Ulthran (1 attack)
Yriel (Kills himself at the end of a battle)
Fuegan (adds CC strength to a unit that shouldn't be in CC, or is otherwise an overpriced long range meltagun)
Mirrorswords (a single model in a unit that otherwise hardly scratches terminators in an assault)
Powerblades (same as above, and combined with a move-shoot-move, should be nowhere in combat)
Lelith Hesperax (S3, meaning that although she might have 11 attacks, only 3-4 will wound, of which 1-2 will be saved)
Warscythes (against anything but I1 Terminators, Warscythe Praetorians will get eaten alive thanks to low Initiative anyway)
Massed Rending/Genestealers/Daemonettes - typically easily shot down thanks to low armour, invulnerable, and/or toughness, Deep striking not allowing assault immediately after results in move back, shoot, overwatch, possibly failed change, rinse and repeat.


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## shaggy (Jul 9, 2009)

The key to which kind of power weapon you use depends on what you want to do with it. For example, my wolf lord with frost axe has recently been broken apart and rebuilt with a frost blade because I don't want to waste his I5 advantage. On the flip side, my thunderwolf cav is keeping their fist/hammer setup to take advantage of their st5 (10 in close combat) so they can go tank hunting too. 

Power weapons have their uses too. They still can hurt the vast majority of models, just don't put them near 2+ and you'll be fine. Good news is the PW is usually cheaper than PF or TH.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Then stop relying on close combat so damn much, that wasn't how the majority of terminators died in 5th and it will not change in 6th, just shoot them, if I had a choice between 20sgt power weapon attacks from a 50 man guard blob and 150 lasgun shots, I think I know which to pick.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

Sakura_ninja said:


> if I had a choice between 20sgt power weapon attacks from a 50 man guard blob and 150 lasgun shots, I think I know which to pick.


Peace through superior firepower:laugh:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Because 150 Lasgun shots will stop a Land Raider loaded with a Chaplain and 7 Assault Terminators, not to mention, better that platoon was tied up in CC rather than shooting at another unit which is more fragile.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Oldman78 said:


> Peace through superior firepower:laugh:


Indeed, plus 5 power weapons costs as much as 30 more shots, no comparison really, if anything power mauls will rock for guard blobs, reducing initiative so your bayonets stab first, very nice.

If you hit combat at least, which you won't OR shouldn't


Vaz said:


> Because 150 Lasgun shots will stop a Land Raider loaded with a Chaplain and 7 Assault Terminators, not to mention, better that platoon was tied up in CC rather than shooting at another unit which is more fragile.


No 150 shots will not stop all that...and neither will 20 power attacks, null point.

But a special weapon squad with 3 melts shooting the raider, and Frfsrf shooting the terminators with 45-50 guardsmen might do, and costs allot less, so much so you can do it twice basically, yay dead termis and raider...NEXT!


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Since this is a thread about the various power weapons we were discussing those. If you wish to do one on shooting feel free.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

I am discussing the power weapons, I'm discussing how power weapons being fiddled is not the end of mankind and not the rise of the terminator, because power weapons are not your main source of force killing, and relying on them is a fools pursuit, and that shooting is a much better alternative to power weapon reliance.

See its all linked together


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Yep shooting is better, still off topic


Edit: Actually nevermind, Fallen I am sorry I fucked your excellent tactics thread up being baited by a troll. I need to just stop posting on any thread she spouts off in.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

In response to the whole Space Marines vs Power swords issue:

If you're putting power swords on your sgt or whatever, this isn't a combat specialist unit. Hence, if you're coming up against 2+ amour saves then you're doing something wrong. Therefore, the AP3 of power swords is perfectly adequate. The Power Axe on the other hand is plain better than a Power Fist if you couple it with meltabombs (as Vaz mentioned earlier) as you ignore all armour saves, and have better anti-tank capabilites anyway (excluding walkers).

Makes sense?


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## Shady ed (Sep 9, 2010)

Sakura_ninja said:


> Why would they be?, an army of terminators as an example isn't as flexible as a list of multiple troop types, and once you used it once it is very easily countered in the future by people, so it simply isn't a viable choice of army to take heavy number expensive models, so nobody will do an entire force as it simply isn't viable at all and never has been against flexible lists (so the opposite of tourney/competitive lists)
> 
> They may be taken by more people, maybe you'll see the odd extra squad pondering about the table, but so what?, 2+ can be ignored by allot more than just power axes, and from far greater ranges


 
Well that's a bad example isn't it? Terminators are neither HQ's or Troops so you can't have an entire force of them. They will however become more common, obviously not to the point that every single player takes them or even people who do fill their elite slots with them but they will become more common.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Shady ed said:


> Well that's a bad example isn't it? Terminators are neither HQ's or Troops so you can't have an entire force of them.


That would be true...if it wasn't false
Deathwing have terminator troops and HQ
Grey knights have terminator troops and HQ
Space wolves can have terminator troops if you take a specific guy in terminator armour

And an army doesn't have to specifically mean ha and 2 troops, it could mean lysander/Calgar/whatever, 2-5 man scout squads and 3-10 man combat squaded into 6-5 man squads, that's now an army of terminators


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

if tailoring your troops to the task at hand is not an option, then overall, I'd say t.h is the best option, best bang for your buck out of the new big 3 of p.f/t.h/p.a, it is the more versatile of the lot looking at he pros and cons at the start of the thread.


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