# Psychic hoods and Runic weapons...



## Hesky (Aug 26, 2009)

As I contemplate hanging up my Tyranids in the competitive scene until the arrival of the new Nid codex several years from now..

Can someone please tell me if psychic hoods and rune priest weapons work whilst they are inside a transport??

If as I suspect they can this would basically mean that my Shadow in the Warp psychic defence cannot penetrate a landraider/rhino/paper-aeroplane but theirs works out of it? 

Please tell me it isnt true...


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## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

Unless it is FAQ'd, yes.

And Tyranids are still one of the better armies out there though their Reserve based lists have been kicked where it hurts.


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## Hesky (Aug 26, 2009)

Kirby said:


> And Tyranids are still one of the better armies out there though


I have to disagree there to be honest. Our best anti-mech units are subject to psychic tests and at 18" range this means they will be in range of runic weapons/psychic hoods always. This really reduces the chances of ever getting that much needed pen on those evasive landraiders. In a competitive 1500 pts tournament like Throne of Skulls all SW lists have jaws of the world wolf, murderous hurricane and meeting one of these lists means the nid player needs to pack up and go home. 

Nullifying 50% of our psyhic attacks whilst safely firing his own sick-ass psychic powers out of a landraider where he is safe from shadows in the warp means that Tervigons and T-fexes are going to bite the dust 66% of the time from a 100 point base-cost model. Any landraider heavy list also gives us major problems too. There is no counter to it and I dont like the idea of spending 160-220 points on an all-or-nothing suicide zoanthrope unit that will only get to use their pyschic power 50% of the time. Thats not including passing the Ld test in the first instance or making the 3+ roll necessary to hit.

I have played really mech heavy lists which lets face it most tournament players use now and each time I have been frustrated by the Tyranids serious lack of punch in that department. 

Nids can be tailored to beat anyone I agree and if playing for fun you can beat anyone with their codex. But their all-comer list just isnt too strong to be fair and its just these sort of rules that force a whole new list to be written...


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Hesky. you cant cast psychic shooting powers out of a Land raider. Psychic shooting attacks NEED LoS meaning they need a gun port.

but to use Psychic hoods / Runic weapon save you DONT need LoS thus they CAN do it in a land raider.

But lets face it. Nids now have the ONLY STR 10 LANCE weapon in the game. if we couldnt counter that shit youd be blowing our tanks up left right and center in one shot


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## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

First read these Armies in 5th articles by myself and then this codex review by AbusePuppy. My articles a more focused on the army as a cohesive whole in a competitive 5th environment whilst Puppy's are a unit by unit breakdown in a more relaxed environment.



Hesky said:


> I have to disagree there to be honest. Our best anti-mech units are subject to psychic tests and at 18" range this means they will be in range of runic weapons/psychic hoods always. This really reduces the chances of ever getting that much needed pen on those evasive landraiders. In a competitive 1500 pts tournament like Throne of Skulls all SW lists have jaws of the world wolf, murderous hurricane and meeting one of these lists means the nid player needs to pack up and go home.


Tyranid anti-tank is a lot different from other armies. Whilst HG & Zoans are brilliant at armor popping (I've always given the nod to HG), the rest of the Tyranid force is about stopping your opponent from shooting/moving with his mech until your MC statlines bang away at rear armor. Throne of Skulls is anything but competitive sorry. Jervis failed massively with that one.



> Nullifying 50% of our psyhic attacks whilst safely firing his own sick-ass psychic powers out of a landraider where he is safe from shadows in the warp means that Tervigons and T-fexes are going to bite the dust 66% of the time from a 100 point base-cost model. Any landraider heavy list also gives us major problems too. There is no counter to it and I dont like the idea of spending 160-220 points on an all-or-nothing suicide zoanthrope unit that will only get to use their pyschic power 50% of the time. Thats not including passing the Ld test in the first instance or making the 3+ roll necessary to hit.


Firing out of a LR? Nope . Jaws is a pain versus nids but doesn't fit in a balanced army. If I get screwed over by it I'm happy to go home knowing if he ever comes up against a balanced list his utility spell is crap (or if it's his main spell...wow). LL, Tempest, Hurrican and storm caller are all much better powers than Jaws. Against an LR list (if @ 1500...well it loses cause it has no support) you take away it's support which you do have the firepower for. Whilst T-Fexes aren't the most reliable at taking them down, once their support is gone (which is the primary tactic against LR lists normally) or their cargo is unloaded you're okay. 



> I have played really mech heavy lists which lets face it most tournament players use now and each time I have been frustrated by the Tyranids serious lack of punch in that department.


3 HG squads = 3 tanks suppressed. 3 T-fexes = 3 tanks suppressed. 2 Harpy/Tyrant = 2 tanks suppressed. That's 9 tanks not shooting/moving/dead. Tyranid shooting isn't about popping tanks, it's about stopping tanks. Whilst HG do a pretty good job of popping lower AV, T-Fexes/Harpies will quite reliably stop a tank from at least shooting. To stop a Tyranid army shooting you have to kill it. My Tyranids have had no problems with mech and the worst matchup for them is against LR. All of those games I've been able to strip away their support and swarm the Terminators.



> Nids can be tailored to beat anyone I agree and if playing for fun you can beat anyone with their codex. But their all-comer list just isnt too strong to be fair and its just these sort of rules that force a whole new list to be written...


Balanced competitive lists FTW.


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## Hesky (Aug 26, 2009)

Whoa, thanks for the input guys.

I guess i need a healthy balance of units to stall the tanks whilst my heavy hitters get close enough to flip them over.. I was probably thinking a little two-dimensionally and could do with a rethink..

Cheers fellas


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## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

Balance is always good . As I said in PM got a tourney this weekend w/Nids so reports should be up (or at least analysis) within a couple of days to get a clearer picture of how Nids operate in 5th.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Kirby said:


> Balance is always good . As I said in PM got a tourney this weekend w/Nids so reports should be up (or at least analysis) within a couple of days to get a clearer picture of how Nids operate in 5th.


Don't give us a bad name now Kirby


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## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Don't give us a bad name now Kirby


Yes ma'am! You're in Australia so you have no excuses for not seeing me this weekend @ Lords of Terra! rawr!


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

I'm up Brisbane way, so nup. Besides, I still haven't got round to finishing my Trygon (yay for half finished models at clubs) and for 1750 I'd like another one in the list, plus more Hive Guard (of which I have neither). So maybe another year, eh?


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Whilst Psychic Hood do work inside transports (p66), They do not work on units inside transports as you cannot measure range to them. Making Psykers inside transports great.

Aramoro


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Hesky said:


> I have to disagree there to be honest. Our best anti-mech units are subject to psychic tests and at 18" range...


Steady on- our best anti mech unit is(are?) Hive Guard. Hands down.



Hesky said:


> I have played really mech heavy lists which lets face it most tournament players use now and each time I have been frustrated by the Tyranids serious lack of punch in that department.


Squads of three HG are probably killing a transport per turn (even waveserpents). Very few units in the game can do that!



Kirby said:


> Throne of Skulls is anything but competitive sorry. Jervis failed massively with that one.....


Until the changes the ToS was the most competitive tournament scene in the world. The changes still encourage a player to bring their best list (for a given codex) and as such the games will still be just as competitive, it's just that deciding who wins overall may be a little off (Why? Why did ithe rules need to be changed!?)



Kirby said:


> ...Jaws is a pain versus nids but doesn't fit in a balanced army. If I get screwed over by it I'm happy to go home knowing if he ever comes up against a balanced list his utility spell is crap...


I don't buy that for a second- jaws is great against nids, orks (so long ghazz), tau and can get lucky against anyone. It's a solid choice which just so happens to be awesome against nids. I expect to see it taken a lot.



Kirby said:


> ...My Tyranids have had no problems with mech and the worst matchup for them is against LR. All of those games I've been able to strip away their support and swarm the Terminators....


Totally agreed, though FNP BA hammernators have forced a bit of a rethink. Worth noting that 9 HG expect 0.33 immobilised results against a LR per turn (assuming no cover).



Kirby said:


> ...Balanced competitive lists FTW.


My 5th ed Nid tournament list is the most balanced looking list i've ever made-one of everything (with two of HG and gants). Nobody was more surprised than me!


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## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> Whilst Psychic Hood do work inside transports (p66), They do not work on units inside transports as you cannot measure range to them. Making Psykers inside transports great.
> 
> Aramoro


Until an FAQ states this, ya they do. SitW is the joyous exception atm.

@Wolf_Lord_Skoll; pfft I painted my army in 2 weeks  (well still painting really...)

@OddJob; Orks would love to see Jaws instead of Murderous Hurricane. If it hits Tau suits, Tau is doing something wrong and they don't care if their low I Kroot die. It's best bet is a "sure hope this IC rolls a 6" in a snipe roll and then comes along T-Fexes/Tervigons. Tempest has so much more utility against any Jumper variant, skimmer or deepstriking armies and hurricane is very effective against hordes, bikes & super units. Storm Caller is the best spell for a mech SW list (i.e. RBack spam) and LL is just the perfect fit for most armies. Again, if Jaws screwed me over in a tournament I'd be happy knowing there are better spells he could of taken which would generally benefit him in a balanced enviornment.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Kirby said:


> Until an FAQ states this, ya they do. SitW is the joyous exception atm.


I'd love to see the evidence for that, rules quote should do the trick. 

I can show an aura effect cannot measure to a model inside a transport. 

Aramoro


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## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

"If the psychic power does not require LoS and has a range or an area of effect that is normally measured from the model using it, these are measured from the vehicle's hull as described in the Embarking section on page 66." 

"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."

Answer to FAQ in rulebook for using psychic powers inside vehicles & pg 66 reference. Reverse logic works for Hoods/Staves/SitW as they are area of effect bubbles in regards to FAQ ruling and the ruling on pg 66 supports it although SitW has been FAQ'd to not do this. GW is not consistent with their FAQs so you cannot extrapolate this ruling across all inferences of psychic defense (i.e. Autarch's can stack reserve bonuses, other races cannot).


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Kirby said:


> "If the psychic power does not require LoS and has a range or an area of effect that is normally measured from the model using it, these are measured from the vehicle's hull as described in the Embarking section on page 66."
> 
> "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."
> 
> Answer to FAQ in rulebook for using psychic powers inside vehicles & pg 66 reference. Reverse logic works for Hoods/Staves/SitW as they are area of effect bubbles in regards to FAQ ruling and the ruling on pg 66 supports it although SitW has been FAQ'd to not do this. GW is not consistent with their FAQs so you cannot extrapolate this ruling across all inferences of psychic defense (i.e. Autarch's can stack reserve bonuses, other races cannot).


P66 does not apply as you are measuring to a model not a unit with Psychic Hood. 

Imagine you have the Rulebook, all the FAQ's and a new player, he's read the rules and all the FAQ's. Then explain to him why Hood's work on embarked Models without using 'They just do' 

Remember FAQ's are not rules changes in theory, they are just clarifications on how a specific case works within the given framework of the rules. If a Psyker is not within 12" of a SitW creature standing outside his vehicle, he is definitely not within 24" of a Libby standing outside his vehicle. 

Autarch's reserve bonuses work differently because they are worded differently from Astropaths etc, perhaps optional bonuses stack and mandatory bonuses don't stack, who knows. 

Aramoro


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Kirby said:


> @OddJob; Orks would love to see Jaws instead of Murderous Hurricane. If it hits Tau suits, Tau is doing something wrong and they don't care if their low I Kroot die. It's best bet is a "sure hope this IC rolls a 6" in a snipe roll and then comes along T-Fexes/Tervigons. Tempest has so much more utility against any Jumper variant, skimmer or deepstriking armies and hurricane is very effective against hordes, bikes & super units. Storm Caller is the best spell for a mech SW list (i.e. RBack spam) and LL is just the perfect fit for most armies.


All you are saying is that there are lots of good options for rune priests. I don't disagree. However, I am well aware that JOTWW is right up there in terms of effectiveness and i've rerely seen a competitive 1500pt SW list in person or on tinterwebz that doesn't include it (was just e-mailed a SW GT list to give a once over and lo, a priest with jaws was the first thing on the page). To not consider it when building your list smacks of head in sand syndrome.



Kirby said:


> Again, if Jaws screwed me over in a tournament I'd be happy knowing there are better spells he could of taken which would generally benefit him in a balanced enviornment.


Really? I generally try to win tournaments myself. That involves not giving yourself bad matchups, or at least having a sound plan for them.


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