# True Nature of Emperor



## Ecumene (Oct 10, 2013)

What do you think about Emperor's true nature? He is a perpetual, first among equals. He is a god-in-waiting. He is a godling, divine apotheosis of humanity. He is not human nor god. He is anathema. He is untouchable. He has a thousand facets. He has ten thousands faces. He has infinite, living embodiment of human psyche. He is the galactic psychic powerhouse. He lives approximately forty, fifty thousand years. He shares kinship with Malcador. He is deceiver, a trickster. He is both savior and tyrant. He is the master of mankind and antithesis of gods. He is utter enigma. He is paradox incarnate. No one, even the likes of Malcador and Valdor, don't no his true, innermost hearts and desires. He is all and he is nothing.

Thus, who he is? Free guess, conjecture and speculation time!


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

He is Alpharius.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4 

Right, definitely Santa Claus


----------



## Ecumene (Oct 10, 2013)

Angel of Blood said:


> He is Alpharius.


Oh yes, WE ARE ALL ALPHARIUS! Seriously, it makes sense. Primarchs are all extension of the Emperor, after all. Thus Alpharius must have a fraction of him.


----------



## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

He is a perpertupial. The main question is if if Horus killing him made him ascend to godhood. Many argue yay, many argue nay. I guess ts up to the individual in question, but the again him being the main character this setting is awfully a lot of not being about him.


----------



## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> He is a perpertupial. The main question is if if Horus killing him made him ascend to godhood. Many argue yay, many argue nay. I guess ts up to the individual in question, but the again him being the main character this setting is awfully a lot of not being about him.


A perpertupial eh? Does that mean he has a pouch and 2 penises like a kangaroo :grin:


----------



## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Ehm they have that? I thought they were just marsupials.


----------



## Nacho libre (Feb 23, 2013)

The first heretic explains this pretty well. 

Ingefel the ascended shows argel tal the true emperor and explains how he is a major dick.


----------



## Angel of Lies (Oct 10, 2011)

The only being with big enough balls to stand up the Primordial Truth and attempt to alter the fate of all living things in doing so.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Its a good question. My first reaction towards the Emperor being a God is no. However, when I say that, I also ponder on the possibility of him being a god. I had a thread that pondered on the concept of Chaos and undivided. In some respects the Daemon Princes are considered by some to be gods.

How is this relevant? Well, these are the closest we have to beings coming from more down to earth powers to actually reaching a very godlike state of power. In the 40k universe we do see the possibility of creatures becoming way stronger than they used to be. Magnus during the _Battle of the Fang_ really demonstrated great power which could be considered Godlike. This is relevant to the Emperor in the sense that he is still corporeal. The question there in lies whether he would be able to keep himself from vanishing in the Warp. Because essentially in order for him to become a god he would have to create an identity of himself that isn't material. Thats where questions like... how are undivided Daemon Princes created. Do they have to be made by a Chaos God or is there something else to an undivided or warp gifted individual that creates its own identity. 

On the other hand, I think it would be interesting if there were other Chaos Gods within the Warp that see the Emperor as a benefit to themselves. This is probably more improbable seeing that he probably destroyed a very great many of them during the Great Crusade. 

Someone actually made a pretty neat home-brew story on how the Emperor was actually made into a god called the Anathema. I thought the concept was cool. However, I feel that its hard to escape the Emperor's Corporeal form completely. Daemon Princes are often related to a Chaos God. So in this sense, the Emperor wouldn't truly be that concept of a huge God in comparison to the major 4 if indeed that was always the case. I also see another case where the Emperor might have created an image of himself or a direct reflection of himself in the Warp. What I mean by this is that though there are some aspects that reflect the Emperor's it isn't completely him and probably not something that would be greeted with open arms.


----------



## Ecumene (Oct 10, 2013)

Nacho libre said:


> The first heretic explains this pretty well.
> 
> Ingefel the ascended shows argel tal the true emperor and explains how he is a major dick.


Oh yes, First Heretic, Ingefel, again(sigh). Sadly, she has a point.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Nacho libre said:


> The first heretic explains this pretty well.
> 
> Ingefel the ascended shows argel tal the true emperor and explains how he is a major dick.





Ecumene said:


> Oh yes, First Heretic, Ingefel, again(sigh). Sadly, she has a point.


Yes because a representative of entities that want to assfuck humanity for all eternity is a good, unbiased source.

The Emperor will condemn billions if it means saving the species as a whole. There is no other option given everything we know of WH40k.

He was a dick to some/most of his sons because despite the father-son relationship he fostered and the urge he instilled in each of his sons to fight for his attention, they were ultimately proxies made from test-tubes to lead humanity in his absence while he worked on much more important works.


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Ecumene said:


> In Betrayer, Lorgar remarked Magnus is almost like emperor in terms of power and appearance(not face, but his countless, myriad facets and aspects and constantly changing appearance. Though Lorgar makes a stretch by saying Magnus' power is on par with Emperor, as Crimson King himself immediately dismissed.
> 
> Regardless, I think Magnus is almost like avatar of Emperor, at least in some aspects, especially in terms of Warp/psychic/magick etc.


This is the quote you are referring to:

_

"if Lorgar’s skin was gold-inscribed marble, Magnus was an effigy of burnt copper. 

Both primarchs were reflections of their father, each of them made in the Emperor’s image, but where Lorgar was like an aesthetically pleasing statue, etched with intricate runes and swirling mandalas, Magnus was more akin to a red-skinned heathen idol-"


---

"I did not mean physically.’ Lorgar brushed a scriptured hand across his equally tattooed face. 

‘I’m speaking of your… facelessness. You are as powerful as him, and your face dances in the same way.’

It was Magnus’s turn to chuckle. ‘I am not as strong as our father. Would that I was.’

Lorgar waved it aside. ‘Have any of us even seen your real face? Did you ever have two eyes?"


_




Magnus denies this so Lorgar's point is mute especially given the huge gap between Lorgar and Magnus in understanding the Warp.


----------



## Ecumene (Oct 10, 2013)

ckcrawford said:


> Its a good question. My first reaction towards the Emperor being a God is no. However, when I say that, I also ponder on the possibility of him being a god. I had a thread that pondered on the concept of Chaos and undivided. In some respects the Daemon Princes are considered by some to be gods.
> 
> How is this relevant? Well, these are the closest we have to beings coming from more down to earth powers to actually reaching a very godlike state of power. In the 40k universe we do see the possibility of creatures becoming way stronger than they used to be. Magnus during the _Battle of the Fang_ really demonstrated great power which could be considered Godlike. This is relevant to the Emperor in the sense that he is still corporeal. The question there in lies whether he would be able to keep himself from vanishing in the Warp. Because essentially in order for him to become a god he would have to create an identity of himself that isn't material. Thats where questions like... how are undivided Daemon Princes created. Do they have to be made by a Chaos God or is there something else to an undivided or warp gifted individual that creates its own identity.
> 
> ...


In Betrayer, Lorgar remarked Magnus is almost like emperor in terms of power and appearance(not face, but his countless, myriad facets and aspects and constantly changing appearance. 

Regardless, I think Magnus is almost like an avatar of Emperor, at least in some aspects, especially in terms of Warp/psychic/magick etc. And I also think Big E himself is a sort of avatar of sleeping/waiting god...and god of what?


----------



## Ecumene (Oct 10, 2013)

Malus Darkblade said:


> This is the quote you are referring to:
> 
> _
> 
> ...


Just now I cross confirmed same source and accordingly deleted that post. But it seems you already replied...


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Ecumene said:


> In Betrayer, Lorgar remarked Magnus is almost like emperor in terms of power and appearance(not face, but his countless, myriad facets and aspects and constantly changing appearance.
> 
> Regardless, I think Magnus is almost like an avatar of Emperor, at least in some aspects, especially in terms of Warp/psychic/magick etc. And I also think Big E himself is a sort of avatar of sleeping/waiting god...and god of what?


You are referring to post daemonhood, correct? Because right now he is virtually immortal and indestructible.


----------



## Nacho libre (Feb 23, 2013)

Ecumene said:


> Oh yes, First Heretic, Ingefel, again(sigh). Sadly, she has a point.


It has a point, I don't think that giant slug has a gender.


----------



## Ecumene (Oct 10, 2013)

ckcrawford said:


> You are referring to post daemonhood, correct? Because right now he is virtually immortal and indestructible.


Yes. Deamon Prince, immortal version of Magnus. But IIRC, somewhere in A Thousand Sons novel said Magnus is made of more warp/empyrean stuff than physics/matter, and simultaneously exists in both realms.


----------



## Ecumene (Oct 10, 2013)

Nacho libre said:


> It has a point, I don't think that giant slug has a gender.


Thus are you suppose to refer all of deamons as pronominal 'it'? If so, that is indeed a good idea. Simple and convenient.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

One of the most interesting titbits concerning the nature of the Emperor, in my opinion, comes from _Aurelian_:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> ...The exact wording is: _"...In yet another, you defied the Anathema - the creature you name the Emperor, falsely considering it to be human - and you were executed by your brothers Curze and Russ..."_
> 
> ...What I find more interesting is Ingethel referring to the Emperor as a _"creature"_ and an _"it"_, whilst also claiming the Emperor is _"falsely considered human"_...


----------



## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> One of the most interesting titbits concerning the nature of the Emperor, in my opinion, comes from _Aurelian_:


You would think Lorgar would inquire about what Ingethel meant.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> One of the most interesting titbits concerning the nature of the Emperor, in my opinion, comes from _Aurelian_:


I think thats a fair point to bring up. Though, his current state does show he is anchored to the material world.


----------



## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Well, we learn a bit more about the Emperor and how he came to be the Godlike being he was, in _Vengeful Spirit_.



It seems he was originally a regular perpetual, though already a powerful one (considering he had already bested a C'Tan shard long before his ascension). A long time before the the Great Crusade even occurred, he visited a planet called Molech, seemingly calling himself the "Stormlord", and found a gateway into the warp. He entered it and somehow managed to "steal" power from the Chaos Gods, becoming a "god" in the process. As was remarked in the novel, the power leap he got was so drastic that while he needed a ship to get to Molech, he didn't need one to return to Terra. The trip also severely aged him though, as another perpetual notes (he leaves her in charge of watching over the gate, in case someone else got drawn to its power). She briefly saw through his glamours after he emerged from the gateway, and saw how mere moments inside, from her perception, had aged him massively. Horus went to Molech to find that same source of power, but he earned it through conquest and feats of arms, rather than stealing it. And he suffered the same aging effect as the Emperor. Upon coming out of the gateway, he is noted as looking aged, with silver in his hair, but then his appearance suddenly changes to him looking in his prime, once he stands up again (probably due to using a glamour, similar to the Emperor). That's also how Horus acquired power enough to also be considered a "god" and was able to challenge the Emperor in a direct confrontation.


As for the comments in _Aurelian_, I wonder if it has to do with his perpetual status.


----------



## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> Well, we learn a bit more about the Emperor and how he came to be the Godlike being he was, in _Vengeful Spirit_.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Any indication in the book as to when this happens in the timeline, e.g. before/after DAOT or a millennia or two before The Fall.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Chompy Bits said:


> Well, we learn a bit more about the Emperor and how he came to be the Godlike being he was, in _Vengeful Spirit_.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats pretty cool. I haven't read that novel yet. I'm still behind. That actually is pretty interesting because the state that he is in is pretty confusing. I presume he is only in that state because it requires so much power to close the web way. I wonder if fluff will change the fact he is not conscience.


----------



## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Read the books.


----------



## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

GabrialSagan said:


> Read the books.


Read the OP.

He's asking people's opinions of the nature of the Big E, not about information concerning him.

Don't be such a Dicklick, GabrialSagan.


----------



## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

DeathKlokk said:


> Read the OP.
> 
> He's asking people's opinions of the nature of the Big E, not about information concerning him.
> 
> Don't be such a Dicklick, GabrialSagan.


I read the OP. and the entire question is moot. We know the nature of the Emperor in detail. We know how he was made, when he was made, why he was made. We know what he wants and what abilities he possesses to achieve his goals. GW has given us everything we could possibly want to know about the nature of the Emperor.


----------



## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

If the emperor could turn into a God to rival the four great ones I think he would need to join the spirits of all psychers that have died in powering the GT over the years. Then his spirit would be the equal to 100.000.000 psychers. Now that should count fire something. 

Now if I remembers correct it takes 10.000 psychers each year to power the GT and he has been there for 10.000 years.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Moriouce said:


> If the emperor could turn into a God to rival the four great ones I think he would need to join the spirits of all psychers that have died in powering the GT over the years. Then his spirit would be the equal to 100.000.000 psychers. Now that should count fire something.
> 
> Now if I remembers correct it takes 10.000 psychers each year to power the GT and he has been there for 10.000 years.


Compared to the Chaos gods who have been feeding off trillions of souls from countless races across hundreds of millions of years? Not really. Big E doesn't even come close, no matter how much the fanboys want it.


----------



## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Serpion5 said:


> Compared to the Chaos gods who have been feeding off trillions of souls from countless races across hundreds of millions of years? Not really. Big E doesn't even come close, no matter how much the fanboys want it.


Do you have any source for that? As that is a hell of a direct quote as it's directly quoted in the rulebooks how he is keeping the warp at bay.


----------



## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Compared to the Chaos gods who have been feeding off trillions of souls from countless races across hundreds of millions of years? Not really. Big E doesn't even come close, no matter how much the fanboys want it.


Hello Serpion, I do disagree conceptually since each of the Chaos Gods were birthed at some point in linear time, even if the nature of the Warp then makes linear time irrelevant to the contribution of souls/emotions to the particular Chaos God. That being the case, a Warp God based on the Emperor would have the same relationship with time and the Warp. Slannesh didn't start gobbling Eldar souls during the first 60 million years of their existence until the flag dropped at the start of the Fall.

All in all, the whole birth of a Warp God thing doesn't seem consistent in the fluff. Khorn was evidently (since I don't have a direct citation) born in the Terran mideval times, but not when the Old Ones and Necrons were spending millions of years going back and forth destroying who knows how many species in spasms of violent killing, for example. Just doesn't make sense to me, even though I'm sure there are dozens of reasonable justifications.

I'm just saying that the real (Warp) God Emperor could be in his pupating stage and waiting for that magic number of Human psykers to emerge and give him that last big push out the birth channel.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Hello Serpion, I do disagree conceptually since each of the Chaos Gods were birthed at some point in linear time, even if the nature of the Warp then makes linear time irrelevant to the contribution of souls/emotions to the particular Chaos God. That being the case, a Warp God based on the Emperor would have the same relationship with time and the Warp. Slannesh didn't start gobbling Eldar souls during the first 60 million years of their existence until the flag dropped at the start of the Fall.


The Chaos gods embody core emotional concepts. The Emperor does not. It's not a case of warp time or power levels, it's a case of they are completely different beings in both nature and origin. 

The Emperor could no more become a Chaos god than Tzeentch could become a human. They're just too different. The entire point of the gods creating demons was because they were not able to manifest themselves in any other way. 



Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> All in all, the whole birth of a Warp God thing doesn't seem consistent in the fluff. Khorn was evidently (since I don't have a direct citation) born in the Terran mideval times, but not when the Old Ones and Necrons were spending millions of years going back and forth destroying who knows how many species in spasms of violent killing, for example. Just doesn't make sense to me, even though I'm sure there are dozens of reasonable justifications.


Khorne being born in the medieval times of Earth is long since removed from the fluff. He is now assumed to have existed in some form or another since far more ancient times, when the earlier races of the galaxy were forced to take up war in the wake of the Old Ones and Necron conflict. Humanity is credited with giving him the fuel to become ascendant in more recent times, but they are not responsible for his birth. 

Such is the case with all four Chaos gods. Slaanesh is attributed to the eldar simply because the eldar empire's collective decadence formed the trigger which allowed Slaanesh to interact with linear time in realspace. All four gods are assumed to have always existed. It is simply a case of their nature changing to reflect the state of the galaxy. When the eldar empire was at its peak, the threat of Chaos was minor and often inconsequential in the grander scheme. It was the Emperor's crusade and subsequent forming of the Imperium and its Chaos worshipping counterparts which threw fuel onto the fires of the gods' power. 



Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> I'm just saying that the real (Warp) God Emperor could be in his pupating stage and waiting for that magic number of Human psykers to emerge and give him that last big push out the birth channel.


I just don't see it. None of it adds up. If he knew what it would take to become a god, surely he had the means to take that power long ago. Long before the CHaos gods would ever even notice him or perceive him as a threat, he could have engineered the means to drain psykers of their energy and increase his own. 

Instead he pisses off the most powerful beings in the universe to create armies and try to unite his scattered species under one rule, to eliminate superstition and religion and bring about a single common purpose. Maybe he knew just how fucked up things would get, maybe he didn't. But I don't think he was ever after godhood. I think he was trying to take the others out of the picture. We know that the Chaos gods did feel threatened that he was planning to subvert their ability to take worshippers. 

I think it's more likely that he wanted a universe free from Chaos. He took a gamble, and now he's paying the price. 

But most importantly, the hundreds of psykers he requires each day are NOT increasing his power. They are simply enabling him to stay alive and continue guiding the astronimicon.


----------



## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Thanks for the considered response!


----------



## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

The true nature of Empy is that he is a Pertupetal. I think that was that he had lived a few times before as Olli suddenly also became one, can be that he truly is immortal (honestly it was a more horrible idea from Abnett, but I have to roll with it). The question is if Horus did truly kill him again or not I guess as he now sits with just a few cells keeping him alive devouring souls by the minute when he ain't soul-binding and blinding potential Astropaths. And there are always the rulebooks which I harkens back to as the basis of everything.


----------



## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> The true nature of Empy is that he is a Pertupetal. I think that was that he had lived a few times before as Olli suddenly also became one, can be that he truly is immortal.


Thanks for bringing this into the conversation Beaviz. As a perpetual, the Emperor regenerates like his son Vulcan does, or so I would assume since it hasn't been specifically addressed in the fluff yet (anyone?). Well, mixing that with the revelation in Talon of Horus earlier in the thread...



indicating that the Emperor was a very strong perpetual who found a magic doorway that allowed him to gain his current godlike powers (to paraphrase)...
 
kicking off his modern uber-performance where he can do things like creating the Primarchs/Astartes, bringing sexual healing to Mechanicum Knights, maintaining the binding on the Void Dragon on Mars, directing the Astronomican from across the galaxy while fighting in hand to hand combat, etc. Well, I wonder if he's not allowing himself to die and reincarnate as it might effect some of the many artifacts he's created that keep the 40K imperium alive? Like a piece of his essence that resides in every Astartes (more random speculation). If he dies, then all that essence is pulled back to the Warp and his reincarnated self doesn't have that super boost?


----------

