# The good guys



## baggy42 (Jul 17, 2009)

So who are the good guys? I think one of the things I particularly enjoy about the game and universe is the dark setting that makes it in fact a very honest one.

I would imagine to the new player the imperium would appear to be the good guys, however as has been covered in many topics the imperium appears to be a very classic case of those that are in charge get it good and everybody else is meat to the grinder.
Now the only reason that the treatment of the citizens of the imperium is perhaps "a little naughty" is because all being human ourselves we know that there is a human capacity to treat each other well.
in terms of treatment of other races they are intolerant to the extreme and as murderous as any other of the major factions.

The Tau offer themselves as working for the greater good, however the only real difference between their expansion and the imperium expansion is that the Tau give the opportunity to join them before you get a kicking by them.

Eldar are secular and look after number 1, ruthless to the extreme when it comes to playing the other races off against each other - often causing large loss of life in other factions to save themselves.

Orks love a good scrap - its what they do. I dont think that they are evil as such, just aggressive and expansive. in all fairness its better for them not to wipe out everybody else or life will get awful boring!

Necrons I must admit I know little about their motives and as such am unqualified to comment so perhaps somebody could help with this? my gut feeling is they are probably as evil as they come!

Dark Eldar and Chaos marines I consider probably more evil then the chaos daemons themselves.
my thoughts are as follows - The daemons act on their nature and consuming souls to survive? (I am speculating here , I haven't read the codex and so again unqualified to comment)
Chaos Marines and Dark eldar have made a definate choice to kill for their own personal gains i.e. power. thats worth a minuute or two on the naughty chair as far as I am concerned.

The final faction I will look at is the Tyranids - who are imho the most honest race going. they simply act on the most basic instinct - eat and move on.
they are very similar to the imperium in a way their basic tactics (send in the little guys mixed with a few killer units) however the tyranid process has units that are almost designed to die where as everbody is designed similar in teh human race and no person is put into existance to die, somebody else tells them to.

In summary I believe that the tyranids are honest but too animalistic to be considered the good guys and the universe of 40K contains races driven to all manner of atrocities which allow them to survive. there are no good guys, 

there is only a struggle

there is only war


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

there is not good or evil only power and those to weak to seek it


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Iron Warriors are good... good at killing shit!


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

No good guys. All ass holes, the entire group.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Imperium is still the best of the worst.


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## Khargoth (Aug 5, 2010)

Yeah, it's all just shades of grey (or shades of black, your grimdark may vary).


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## Tensiu (Aug 15, 2009)

For me, the only 'good' race is Tau. I know, they are good as long as you accept their vision of Greater Good, but... I'd join them if I had a choice. They help all who join 'em, they don't cheat on food rations. But, to be honest, I'd join Farsight Enclaves, cause I have mah own vision of it, uniting humans and Tau.
But still, if you accept their offer and join them, you'd have home, job etc.

Otherwise, i'd join inquisition (they are good, they seek scum to 'heal' Imperium!) or Nurgle (Fuck everything, kill, rot and dance, and you'll be loved by your God!)


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Mmm... Sadly the Imperium is the lesser of the 10+ evils..


And dont mistake tyranids... They're evil bastards.. More like wasps than bees.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Davidicus 40k said:


> Imperium is still the best of the worst.


I'd rather take my chances at the end of Kharn the betrayers axe, while Typhus sneezes on me Ahriman pokes me with tentacles and Lucius rapes my leg (Abby can sit in the corner crying) than with the imperium.


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

Quit hating on abaddon, He'd win hands down in a 1 v 1 against Typhus.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

No good, only evil.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

aaaah but has he ever fought with cancer


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

This has been done before but the 'good' guys would be tau=imperium=eldar


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

there is no "good" or "bad", as I said before
in the 41st millennium there is no black and white, only shades of grey.


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## rokar4life (Jun 21, 2008)

Papa Nurgle.

He just wants to love you, as far as shades of gray go in 40k that's pretty light.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

locustgate said:


> This has been done before but the 'good' guys would be tau=imperium=eldar


Pray tell how those three factions would be the 'good guys'? They are no better than any of the factions people like you consider to be 'bad'.


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## needskonstruktion (Oct 9, 2008)

rokar4life said:


> Papa Nurgle.
> 
> He just wants to love you, as far as shades of gray go in 40k that's pretty light.


Actually some truth in this xD 
Although there are no good forces or bad forces, only shades inbetween, Nurgle's main desire is to grow new life... Although it's one of the most basic forms of life and rather deadly xD


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> there is no "good" or "bad", as I said before
> in the 41st millennium there is no black and white, only shades of grey.


Disagreed. There is definitely some black in the WH40K world, and all shades of grey are pretty close to it. There's really nothing grey about a race of mindless robotic drones that want to enslave and harvest all life for their vile, insatiable gods.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Pray tell how those three factions would be the 'good guys'? They are no better than any of the factions people like you consider to be 'bad'.


Necrons wants to kill/kill/kill all
Dark eldar want to screw/torture/kill all
Nids wants to eat/kill/absorb all
Chaos wants to kill/screw/change/infect all
orks wants to....WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!

There are no good or evil only grey as others have said but these 3 are the closest to white grey you can get 

Imperium wants to reunite/kill all
tau wants to unite/kill all
eldar wants to survive/kill all


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I say Nids are good simply because there is less malice involved with them. Sure, they kill all, but only to feed, there is no hatred, betrayal, or anger involved.

It is simply a matter of hunt, kill, feed. How can you deny the purity of such an existence?


--- --- --- 


With lots of big ass weapons, that`s how! :laugh: (I knew that reply was coming)


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

The definition of good is purely based on perspective.
Change the perspective, and the definition changes.

About the best way to seperate races would be ones who kill for excess power, and ones who do it to defend themselves or dont know any better.

Eldar only do it to defend themselves from others.
Dark Eldar only do it to defend themselves from Slaanesh.
Orks do it for fun, and because they dont know any better.
Nids do it because they need to feed.

Then you have the ones that kill for excess....
Chaos kill to grow stronger.
All of the imperium kill to grow stronger.
Tau try to convert people (the lesser of the evils).



But at the end of the day, good and evil dont exist.
Even in todays world, there is no such thing as good and evil, only perspective.


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## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

The Squats was good.

But then they got eated.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

locustgate said:


> Necrons wants to kill/kill/kill all
> Dark eldar want to screw/torture/kill all
> Nids wants to eat/kill/absorb all
> Chaos wants to kill/screw/change/infect all
> ...


That still doesn't justify in the slightest how the Imperium/Craftworld Eldar/Tau Empire are the closest to 'white grey'. It could easily be argued that they are much worse than several other factions.

For example. The Imperium is a highly militant and xenophobic entity, it will slaughter everything and anything that it deems a threat to its existence, and indeed anything it encounters regardless of whether it is a threat or not. It has no concept of individual rights, and happily condemns the lives of millions of its citizens daily often for no logical reason. It is a corrupt, unjust, tyrannical and brutal regime which mindlessly clings to the belief that the Galaxy is its birthright, despite the reality.

The Eldar unleashed one of the greatest horrors conceivable on the Galaxy, Slaanesh. They are arrogant, self-obsessed and would not hesitate to sacrifice billions of another species to save a single Eldar life. They believe the Galaxy is theirs by right, and several Craftworlds (notably Biel-Tan) are attempting to rebuild the galactic dominating Eldar Empire.

The Tau Empire are rapidly expanding and absorbing many other species and cultures into its society. They advance under the pretence of the Greater Good, but ultimately they still only give their victims two options, Join us or die. They are also arrogant, but ignorant of the horrors and realities of the Galaxy. They treat the species of their empire as second-class citizens despite their propoganda.

Now lets compare these to say the Orks, Necrons, Chaos, Dark Eldar and Tyranids.

The Orks were genetically bred for war, it is all they know and their only purpose in life. Essentially they have no choice in the matter, they are like a virus, they multiply, spread and destroy.

The Necrons have no free will whatsoever (apart from the Lords who maintain a very limited amount). They are enslaved to the will of the C'tan.

My views on the morality of Chaos have been explained thoroughly in several other threads, but essentially I would argue Chaos (mortal followers aside) is a wild and elemental force which has no choice or option but to act in the way it does. Something which has no choice or freewill to act in my mind cannot be described as evil.

Dark Eldar enslave and kill to preserve themselves from Slaanesh. They do it in part for their own survival. There is little evidence to suggest that they seek to destroy, conquer and control other factions like many others do.

Etc. 

Now, im not saying that there the Imperium/Eldar/Tau are worse than the rest. But they are certainly not any better.


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## LordLucan (Dec 9, 2009)

Also remember that the Necrontyr (pre-necronification), in many ways, were quite sympathetic in their origins. Consider that they suffered permanently under a horrible star which was relentlessly killing them. They then tried to leave their planet, and they had to do so without FTL, and struggled for thousands upon thousands of years just to get to the nearest worlds.

Then the Old Ones show up, with their immortality and their perfect galaxy-spanning empire, with brilliant FTL and the ability to create entire races just to tell them how awesome they are. I think the Necrontyr are justified in their loathing of the Old Ones and their spawn.

The Necrontyr are essentially the Frank Grimes of the 40K setting. They had to do everything the hard way.

Also, the Necrons desire to kill all life is simply pragmatic in their view. Virtually all life in the 40K galaxy was bred by the Old ones to destroy the Necrons. They are the enemy in the eyes of the Necron nodal grid. It is the C'tan who are the real evil in this situation I feel. They manipulated the hatred the Necrontyr feel, to dupe them into destroying themselves, then used the necrons thus created to enslave and torment the rest of the galaxy. Also, many of the C'tan enjoy creating fear and suffering, simply to improve the taste of the prey's minds.


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## WhoHitJohn? (Jul 3, 2010)

ok short and simple answer is no good guys, or is it, because its equally easy to say they are all good guys from a certian point of veiw. By far the best way to point it, and it was put this way for me when i started 40k by a member of GW Stoke. Is there is not good and evil, only for the Imperium and agaist the Imperium.


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

Deathscythe4722 said:


> The Squats was good.
> 
> But then they got eated.


Thats when people realized DON'T FUCK WITH THE TYRANIDS

I talked to the GW manager yesterday about this and he stands with

Good - Imperium (if they're going to be the favourites of GW they have to be good)
Good Neutral - Tau, Eldar (All they want to do is either expand or survive and they are nice to each other and the Imperium...well when the Imperium is nice to them)
Evil Neutral - Orks, Nids, Dark Eldar (They don't care about who they kill/capture as long as they...well as long as they are capable of being killed/tortured)
Evil - All things Chaos (Well it's chaos they are meant to be evil)

I must say I have to agree with him


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

What you need to keep in mind when talking to GW staff is that generally they know sod all more about the setting than anyone else, they just like to think they do. 

From a purely human point of view the Imperium could be seen as good until you actually analyze the situation. They are xenophobic in the extreme, blood thirsty and all that is wrong with the human race. There are no Mother Theresas, no Ghandis and no Nobel Peace Prize. Instead we have a galaxy spanning empire led by vicious dictators that would put Pol Pot and Stalin to shame and staffed by secret police and the Spanish Inquisition (No one expects the spa...) 

Saying that the Empire only commits terrible crimes for it's own survival is nonsense, the galaxy didn't ask to be invaded by the Emperor, a man who decided that the galaxy belonged to him. There were empires already in existance that wanted nothing to do with the Imperium and seemed to be doing OK on their own until the big E brought war and destruction to their door steps. 
The Emperor could have built the Empire on diplomacy rather than warfare, massively reducing the chances of the Heresy ever happening. Less pissed off societies would have meant less allies for Horus.

So, taking all of the above into consideration and using the Imperium as a starting point, who is *really* more evil?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

While the Imperium/Eldar and Tau are by no means good, i still see them as on the same level as chaos. While the Imperium is will kill anything in its way, and some thing that aren't, they are quite malevolent in the extreme about it. Where as the Chaos gods and the traitor marines and numerous followers drive and objectives is too cause as much harm to the galaxy and all races in it as possible. The Imperium does have some noble intentions sometimes, even then noble in their own twisted way. But Chaos does not, it never acts on a good ideal or out of good intentions. Nothing is done for the greater good. It is evil personified, its very existence is to corrupt and destroy other races mainly just for the shits and giggles of it. 

I'm not defending the Imperium, i agree with everyone else that it is a xenophobic, brutal, totalitarian regime who would not hesitate to whipe every other race off the face of the galaxy. But in my view they are still not as bad as Chaos


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Chaos does have at least one redeeming feature, it stands for total freedom. 
Arguments like this always come down to the same conclusion, it depends which side of the fence you are standing on. 
The Empire offers nothing but a harsh life and an anonymous death to it's population whereas Chaos offers them hope. Hope that they may overcome the hell that is their everyday lives, it gives them the confidence to stand up to the tyranny they have to endure. 

Another way to look at it is to use Star Wars as an example, as far as mythologies go they fit pretty well.
The Emperor is the most powerful Sith Lord in the galaxy and has risen to power and now rules over a tyrannical empire. 
The only real opposition is the Rebel Alliance, led by a Jedi, arch enemies of the Sith.

To the minds of those loyal to the Emperor the rebel Alliance are dangerous heretics, anarchists who seek to disrupt the rule of law and bring chaos to the galaxy. 
Propaganda would probably paint them in a similar light to Chaos in 40K. We have to remember that everything we get to read relating to 40k is written from an Imperial point of view so Propaganda is in overdrive.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Propaganda would probably paint them in a similar light to Chaos in 40K. We have to remember that everything we get to read relating to 40k is written from an Imperial point of view so Propaganda is in overdrive.


This has been stated before not everything written is from the Imperial point of view.


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## Anfo (Jul 17, 2009)

Deathscythe4722 said:


> The Squats was good.
> 
> But then they got eated.


Hella squats.

I think that GW is trying to portray the Space Marines as the 'good guys'. Not the whole Imperium. This is mainly because everything done in 40k has to show off how awesome the marines are. 
for example:
-Almost every 40k game ever made is about the marines (mainly ultrasmurfs at thatuke: )
-They are the poster boys for everything 40k.
-They are the starter army for the table top game.
-In everything they do, the marines look awesome and don't do stupid stuff. (can't think of a better word).
-I mean EVERYTHING, They look good in combat, they look good killing stuff, they look good dieing, they look good standing there, they look good when dead (dreadnought) etc, etc.


Possibly the only good guys are the Soul Drinkers, but that just my opinion.
And yes I know the Soul Drinkers are SM's and I've just bashed the SM's.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

locustgate said:


> This has been stated before not everything written is from the Imperial point of view.


Maybe not *everything* but the vast majority is. 
And my point still stands that perspective depends entirely on where you are standing.


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