# Two Hive fleets say hello



## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

So what happens if two different Tyranid Hive Fleets run into each other? Lets say both just in the void and also if there's a situation where they are trying to consume the same planets.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

...nom nom?

Guess it depends how many Overminds are driving the Hive Fleets.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Penis measuring contest.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

either they merge, or they would try to absorb one anothers biomass ending in a giant war between hive fleets.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

I do not know if they would fight or if they would join forces, but either way it is basically the exact same result. Whichever fleet wins the battle will simply consume the casualties on both sides and have the exact same strength as if they didn't fight at all.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

SoL Berzerker said:


> but either way it is basically the exact same result


With the exception of the amount of time it would take for the fleets to battle I suppose. That could be crucial rallying time for the Imperium/whatever world is next in the Hive Fleet's flight path.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

I'd wonder if they're like the Argentine Ants making their way up the West Coast of the US, considered a 'super-colony' that stretches over 900 km... the European colony on the Mediterranean cost for over 6,000 km. All the ants are genetically the same (even between Europe and California), so when two adjacent hives come into contact, there's no competition and the ants can just swap hives with each other. If they come into contact with a different kind of ant/insect however, it's game on.

Considering the Hive Mind casts it's shadow in the warp over interstellar distances, I don't think two Hive Minds would ever have to worry about their Fleets suddenly being in competition over the same planet. If they made even glancing contact, I think they would either choose separate planets and trash the entire sector at once, or possibly merge into a single larger Hive Fleet with much the same effect.

"Two carnifexes walk into a bar..."


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Bug sex. 








RAWR


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

Yeah Hybrid Hive fleets haha. Kind of a neat modeling idea I suppose, mixing t
he colors and traits of two different fleets.

Good example with the ants. :good:


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

The upcomming Valedor novel touches on that issue. Where the eldar desperately tries to prevent 2 hive fleets from merging and becomming stronger by sharing dna code.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> The upcomming Valedor novel touches on that issue. Where the eldar desperately tries to prevent 2 hive fleets from merging and becomming stronger by sharing dna code.


Guess thats the official answer then!


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The Fluff has changed on this a few times. 

At one stage all tyranids were unified, and would simply merge. 

Then it was written that the separate Overminds within the Hive Fleets would compete with other Hive Fleets, leading tyranids to fight one another but the victorious fleet always came out far stronger for the added biomass and genetic diversity. This was called Convergent Evolution.

I don't think any direct references to this scenario have been made since, but recent lore seems to suggest they're all one side again.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

Well, if small Tyranids on the ground lose cohesion when the synapse creatures aren't close enough maybe it is the same on a much larger scale as well. Some giant Hive node floating around back and forth between other galaxies somewhere.

That would pretty neat, anyway.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

In the latest Ciaphus Cain novel 

a hive fleet invades a planet on which various warrior forms and a hive node from another fleet are being researched upon. They instantly go at each other, and Cain and co surmise that they will not tolerate another rival for biomass, even if it is another hivefleet. They then figure out that the psychic shadow of the node overrides and confuses the control of lesser rival synapse creatures, using this to their advantage in combating the invaders.

To me this means that the last battle fought in the Milky Way will be between the last two hive fleets standing.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I read somewhere or another (maybe from that Cain novel) that they fight each other to determine which fleet's...overall strategy is "best". Sorta like a practice match of sorts, except the winner eats the loser.

The source, if I recall correctly, says no biomass is lost in the exchange, so it's a free lesson. Though that doesn't make sense to me, since the actual fighting requires energy (and hence loss of biomass), but that's just me.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

hailene said:


> Though that doesn't make sense to me, since the actual fighting requires energy (and hence loss of biomass), but that's just me.


Well said. I knew there was something fishy about tyranids: energy loss during respiration and digestion.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

hailene said:


> The source, if I recall correctly, says no biomass is lost in the exchange, so it's a free lesson. Though that doesn't make sense to me, since the actual fighting requires energy (and hence loss of biomass), but that's just me.


By that thinking then the nids shouldn't fight period as they lose energy

On a less asshole note: the "energy", biomass, gained would far outway the energy lose, every basic functions take energy to create energy, i.e. cellular respiration, photosynthesis, etc.. I also imagine that the fight between 2 hive fleets are the safest form of weapon testing, as the nids don't really lose much in the fighting it self.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

locustgate said:


> By that thinking then the nids shouldn't fight period as they lose energy


Nope, since they (normally) get to eat the biomass of the defenders and the rest of the planet.

Think of it as running a marathon to get to the grocery store and then gorging yourself there for a few months. There's a net gain of energy, even though, initially, you lose energy (by running the marathon).

Now the Tyranid hive fleets fighting each other would be like running a marathon and then eating your arm at the end of it. You lose the energy of running the marathon, but in the end you're feeding on yourself. The act of running the marathon causes a net energy loss, the actual cutting off and preparing of the arm would net STILL more loss (akin to the digestion and rebirth of the Tyranid life forms after they devour a planet's biomass).

It's a loss/loss.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

hailene said:


> I read somewhere or another (maybe from that Cain novel) that they fight each other to determine which fleet's...overall strategy is "best". Sorta like a practice match of sorts, except the winner eats the loser.
> 
> The source, if I recall correctly, says no biomass is lost in the exchange, so it's a free lesson. Though that doesn't make sense to me, since the actual fighting requires energy (and hence loss of biomass), but that's just me.


Why couldn't they gain energy from sunlight like plants?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> Why couldn't they gain energy from sunlight like plants?


Good question. Because a species that lands on a planet and spreads spores everywhere to photosynthesize isn't quite as grim dark as a massive swarm of insect-like monsters nom noming everyone.

One of the real big assumptions we have to run on is WHY the Tyranids are eating their way through the Milky Way. 

I mean, if the Tyranids are running from something bigger and scarier than them, a quick snack along the way as they run makes more sense. Sitting around and collecting energy isn't feasible if the monster behind you is nearby.

Maybe the Tyranids are cleaning our galaxy out for some other species. Maybe the Tyranids were created by some other species as galactic weed killer. Leave a nice barren galaxy for some alien species to xenoform to their liking.

Perhaps it's just so much faster to gain energy by devouring a planet's biomass and moving on. For every planet the Tyranids get stopped at, dozens more get devoured.

It also might be for more strategic reasons. One of the reasons why the Hivefleets are so dangerous is that they have no supply lines to cut. They're a self-sufficient army. This means 1. They don't have to depend on outside support and 2. They don't have to use valuable biomass to create defenses for these solar farms.

Okay, so why not pump out some solar collectors while fighting for a planet?

It takes away biomass from the fighting force, so an enemy they may have overcome may be able to successfully resist them.

Maybe the biomass it takes to create them isn't offset by the energy they collect, in general.

Maybe the galaxy they came from didn't have stars as we know them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Honestly, I think the biggest reason is that it's not as scary and doesn't fit with their overall theme of chitin horrors. 

A spore assault of Tyranid solar collectors could be dangerous, too. They could darken the sky (inhibiting life on the planet) or just plain push the native flora out of the biosphere. That would be disastrous as everything that depends on plant life on the planet (which include primary consumers and up) would be doomed.

But it just ain't as scary as a tidal wave of teeth and claws smashing into your city.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

hailene said:


> Good question. Because a species that lands on a planet and spreads spores everywhere to photosynthesize isn't quite as grim dark as a massive swarm of insect-like monsters nom noming everyone.
> 
> One of the real big assumptions we have to run on is WHY the Tyranids are eating their way through the Milky Way.
> 
> ...


The distance between galaxies is vast. Whatever energy that they gained from stars would be nearly depleted by the time they got here.

Biomass could be the most efficient way to get energy but I see no reason they couldn't use solar radiation.

As to why they wouldn't deploy solar collectors the biomass required for that would be better suited going towards genestealers.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Its shown during Valedor that the Tyranids even have shovelbeasts that consumes fertile soil.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> The distance between galaxies is vast. Whatever energy that they gained from stars would be nearly depleted by the time they got here.


I never mentioned them using solar power between the galaxies.



Reaper45 said:


> Biomass could be the most efficient way to get energy but I see no reason they couldn't use solar radiation.


I just gave you *several* possible reasons.



Reaper45 said:


> As to why they wouldn't deploy solar collectors the biomass required for that would be better suited going towards genestealers.


I feel like this is missing a comma. If so, why do you think so?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

hailene said:


> Now the Tyranid hive fleets fighting each other would be like running a marathon and then eating your arm at the end of it. You lose the energy of running the marathon, but in the end you're feeding on yourself. The act of running the marathon causes a net energy loss, the actual cutting off and preparing of the arm would net STILL more loss (akin to the digestion and rebirth of the Tyranid life forms after they devour a planet's biomass).
> 
> It's a loss/loss.


If you think of it as a single individual yes, if you think of them as a species then it is cannibalism then no.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

locustgate said:


> If you think of it as a single individual yes, if you think of them as a species then it is cannibalism then no.


I'm not following you still. You realize that all the biomass they (the Tyranid hivefleets) possess is biomass they control, right? As in, if Hivefleet A decides to eat Hivefleet B, there is no net gain in biomass, it just gets passed around, right?

Let me try another analogy. Imagine biomass is like sand and let's say a Hivefleet is like a pocket. Let's call your left pocket Hivefleet A and your right pocket Hivefleet B. With me so far?

Okay, so you have sand in each of your pockets, but you decide Hivefleet A (aka, your left pocket) is a better holder for your sand, so you grab a handful of sand from Hivefleet B (aka right pocket) and put it into your left pocket. Unfortunately, you lose some sand in the process as it slips your fist, so the amount of sand you put into your left pocket is less sand than you took from your right pocket.

Understand how this compares to two separate hivefleets eating each other? There's a loss of biomass in the fighting, digesting, and birthing of new Tyranids. This is analogous to taking the sand from one pocket to another.

Now when a Hivefleet attacks a planet, they, too, must lose sand in the process. The kicker is that they get access to new sources of sand (say from the beach) that they can recoup their losses from. Recoup and actually increase their total sand total.

Follow me? Or am I simply getting trolled and not knowing it?


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

hailene said:


> Now when a Hivefleet attacks a planet, they, too, must lose sand in the process. The kicker is that they get access to new sources of sand (say from the beach) that they can recoup their losses from. Recoup and actually increase their total sand total.


Your analogy is solid hailene but I would pose this question to you. If the Hive fleet is a pocket of sand, and then gains access to a beach the total amount of sand increases exponentially; I agree. But the point being made here is if the "beach (as you define it) was another Hive Fleet?

Would the arriving Fleet just move to another beach, or would it try and consume the beach in order to gain more mass. Also, if this did occur, the total amount of sand lost fighting each other would probably not be worth the total amount of sand on the beach; correct?

Therefore logically the question I think we should be asking is not "what" the total amount of sand(a.k.a biomass) is, but whether another Hive Fleet would fight a fellow Hive Fleet in order to gain more sand? 

This topic interested me, and I searched hi and low and found no "reputable," sources on such events. However I did find a mention on Warseer about a novel (ironically which wasn't mentioned, and that fact challeneged by other forum members) of the remnants of a splinter Fleet of Kraken ended up coming out of a dormant sleep when a current Fleet of Gorgon discovered it floating in space. The two fleets did battle until the Kraken Remnant stood on top. It lost alot of biomass killing the other "Hive Mind,", but gained enough of it['s stored DNA by "consuming," (as the post stated) the opposing Hive Mind.

Anyway thats my thought on the matter, I'm really no Nid expert anyway. 



Brother Lucian said:


> Its shown during Valedor that the Tyranids even have shovelbeasts that consumes fertile soil.


See to me Lucian this constitutes the desperation of the Nid Fleet. Before Moloch (I want to say) I never heard of the Nids consuming earth, or rock, or metal. Lately I hear talk of them consuming everything.....EVERYTHING!!!!

Anyone got any sources on this???




Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> "Two carnifexes walk into a bar..."


Hahahah, LOL :grin:


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

emporershand89 said:


> Would the arriving Fleet just move to another beach, or would it try and consume the beach in order to gain more mass.


Whatever the Hivemind decided on. Remember ALL Hive Fleetsare controlled by the Hivemind (note: singular). All information, including the biological information of their opponents. 

The fifth edition Tyranid codex stated that "The Tau *erroneously *believed that [the knowledge of the Tau weapons and flesh] could only be transferred if the Hive Ships [from Hive Fleet Gorgon] survived to make contact with other Tyranids that even now advanced upon the Tau Empire."

Everything is controlled by the Hive Mind. If the Hive Mind thought it'd be better for one Hive Fleet to eat another, then it would do so. If it thought it would be better for the fleets to go their separate ways, then they would do so.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Regarding passing knowledge between the hivefleets. The doom of Duriel is nearly undone when.....



A single surviving capilary tower pumps the essence of the combined biomass of Kraken and Leviathan towards an orbiting hiveship. But a flight of druchii razorwings literally scythes apart the tower with their wingblades before the DNA payload can be delivered.



And the two hiveminds...


It is shown during Valedor, when once the Hivefleets meets each other, they start to become synchronized with each other. A process that is nearly completed by the point Duriel explodes.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Brother Lucian said:


> And the two hiveminds...


Brother Lucian can you please link where you got this, I would like to read the backround on the subject? If what you posted is true then it simplifies the situation for us; and raises new questions at the same time.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

emporershand89 said:


> Brother Lucian can you please link where you got this, I would like to read the backround on the subject? If what you posted is true then it simplifies the situation for us; and raises new questions at the same time.


Do you have the novel? Then read it, its there.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

the Doom of Duriel? Or are you talking about the new ciaphas Cain novel? I'm confused.....


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

emporershand89 said:


> the Doom of Duriel? Or are you talking about the new ciaphas Cain novel? I'm confused.....


http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/valedor.html
Long ago defiled by the Imperium of Man, the eldar maiden world of *Dûriel* was once a glittering jewel in the crown of the Valedor System.

Clear enough?


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Ok so now that I have completely read the Caiphas Cain novel I would like to make some pointers here that seemed to have stalled this discussion to a stand-still over personal views.

A) According to the Novel (written by acclaimed writers Sandy Mitchell) the First Hive Fleet fears the Second Hive Fleet. It goes so far as to use Genestealers and Hormagaunts in an attempt completely annihilate the remnants of the other Hive Mind. Thus we can conclude that when two Tyranid Fleets meet it is not a friendly chat with Tea and Crumpets. The fact is stated that they see each other as rivals, and will eliminate and consume the opposing Fleet.

B) This "Fear," if you will, that Hive Fleets have for another is so strong they will ignore or steamroll advesaries IOT destroy the opposing fleet at any costs. This presents us with a dilemma in the fact that if Hive Fleets fear one another then how could so many still exist to invade the Milkway Galaxy? Wouldn't they have annihilated one another by now; or was this a counter-measure that Nature/The Creators built into the Tyranids?

C) Finally I would like to beg the question that if Tyranids from different gene pools view each other much in the way two different humans often do can they be "Reprogrammed" to fight alongside the Imperium? Is an age of Bio-Weapons about to Dawn or is this just wishful thinking?

Your thoughts Ladies and Gents.........................


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

Seems like it might be the reaction of some biological need to destroy the weaker gene pool, rather than fear. I'm not sure if thats how the novel describes it though. With all the biomass a Hive fleet can consume, I suppose it may make sense for another hive fleet to look far more delicious than any single world.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

unxpekted22 said:


> I'm not sure if thats how the novel describes it though.


Mitchell describes it as more a "Fear," and Cain and his Astarte freinds describe it as the opposing hordes insatiable need to destroy the other. In the ensueing battle the origional Hive Fleet is described as fighting with,"...a ferocity as such I have not seen since Fecunium."

Additionally it is noted that the origional Hive Fleet remnant was able to project it's own "Shadow of the Warp," that interrfered with the 2nd Hive Fleets Synapse creatures. This is an intriguing clue because it basically suggests that 2 Hive Fleets meeting would "Blind," each other, and cause the Tyranid command structure to collapse in it's entirely. This, I think, is why one Hive Fleet fears the other.

Thus my take on it, unxpected, is more that the opposing Fleet wishes to destroy the opposite Hive because it fears it, Fears something it can become or something is can cause (i.e the Disrutption).


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