# Abnett's portrayal of Alpharius/Omegon



## Malus Darkblade

Spoilers below:

Does anyone else think it feels _ wrong _ or at least in comparison with the other primarchs?

In the book _Legion_, we finally get a glimpse of the secretive primarchs of the Alpha Legion but we discover that they are not similar to their brothers at all. 

I don't mean just physically but rather how they are perceived by others which to me is the most powerful feature of a primarch.

We have Teng Namatjira, commander of the Imperial Army on the planet where _Legion _takes place completely _forget _that he in fact is talking to a primarch throughout the novel. 

Dare I say he dismisses Alpharius serveral times throughout the novel and does not revere him as the primarchs generally are by any figure throughout the Imperium despite their status. He actually turns his back on Alpharius at one point in the book, placing demands on him without even expecting a response and later on actually decides to fire upon him from orbit.

Then we have Namatjira's bodyguard, Dinas Chayde analyze Alpharius/Omegon just as he would with a mere human and later on, he unintentionally jams the tip of his sword in Omegon's armor. A mere human managed to pose a threat to a Primarch's armor and bypasses his defenses and near the end of the book, he actually impales Alpharius fully with his sword and causes him to bleed but not before '_Chayne swung his sabre in, and it was barely blocked by the Primarch's sword_'.

Finally, when Alpharius and Omegon view the Acuity for themselves, they stagger backwards in horror screaming while a normal human weeps and a psyker dies. Does it make sense for such heightened beings to scream while a petty human weeps? It would make more sense in my opinion for the Primarchs to have wept given their greater depth of emotions and their inability to feel fear than to scream in abject horror/anger or whatever.

Also, given the fact that Alpharius and Omegon are twins, are we to assume it is because of this that we are expected to view their diminutive stature as being ok? Why are we expected to visualize them as not being like their hulking brothers but instead simply _bigger_ Astartes? Is it because they are one soul split into two bodies that their powers alone are generally weaker than their brothers?

We don't see any of the humans in the novel viewing Alpharius/Omegon in the same way we have seen them in other novels featuring different primarchs. Complete awe and utter disbelief, reverence and the inability to think or speak for several minutes. Instead we have backtalking-or as the British would say cheeky- human agents working for aliens completely disrespecting primarchs and not one human being in total shock that they are in the presence of a son of the Emperor. 

I want to bring up the Alpha Legionaire's treating their Primarchs like bar-buddies as opposed to their father/commander like the other Legions do but perhaps given the realistic, pragmatic mentality of the Alpha Legion, this is to be expected so I won't get into this.

Throughout the novel this element of admiration and respect a primarch normally commands is missing.

Perhaps this is simply due to the small portions in the novel where the primarchs are featured hence the lack of space to go into more depth.

Thoughts, opinions?


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## Chompy Bits

Maybe the Emperor planned it that way?

Think about it, the Alpha Legion is all about secrecy and subtrefuge. It would be kind of hard for Alpharius/Omegon to move around their legion in secret like they do if they're significantly larger than the astartes of their legion. 

Same with how people perceive them. If everyone shit their britches and spontaneously developed man-crushes when they saw Alpharius/Omegon, like they do when they see other primarchs, it wouldn't allow them to operate in the manner they do. People would see them and straight away realise that there's something different about them, which would prevent them from masquarading as astartes.

Of course, this is all assuming that the Emperor planned specific roles for the primarchs before they were scattered.

As for the vision, maybe they suffered the worst because only their advanced minds could truly understand the full scope of the horror to be unleashed upon the galaxy and what it would mean for the future of mankind.

And as for the fight between the Lucifer Black and Alpharius, I'd call that a brain fart on Abnett's part. No unaugmented, non-psyker human should even be able to take an astartes in melee fighting, much less a primarch.


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## Djinn24

Malus Darkblade said:


> Spoilers below:
> 
> Does anyone else think it feels _ wrong _ or at least in comparison with the other primarchs?
> 
> In the book _Legion_, we finally get a glimpse of the secretive primarchs of the Alpha Legion but we discover that they are not similar to their brothers at all.


I am not much of a Fluff person and Ploss has not read this book yet so I will give it a try.


> I don't mean just physically but rather how they are perceived by others which to me is the most powerful feature of a primarch.
> 
> We have Teng Namatjira, commander of the Imperial Army on the planet where _Legion _takes place completely _forget _that he in fact is talking to a primarch throughout the novel.


This is what they wanted, they wanted to be forgotten about, that is why they hid in the back and let others fill in for them so they could watch and observe. They were all about espionage.


> Dare I say he dismisses Alpharius serveral times throughout the novel and does not revere him as the primarchs generally are by any figure throughout the Imperium despite their status. He actually turns his back on Alpharius at one point in the book, placing demands on him without even expecting a response and later on actually decides to fire upon him from orbit.


IMHO they allowed this, it was all part of their rouse. They let him play the part of the leader because they would rather play spy.


> Then we have Namatjira's bodyguard, Dinas Chayde analyze Alpharius/Omegon just as he would with a mere human and later on, he unintentionally jams the tip of his sword in Omegon's armor. A mere human managed to pose a threat to a Primarch's armor and bypasses his defenses and near the end of the book, he actually impales Alpharius fully with his sword and causes him to bleed but not before '_Chayne swung his sabre in, and it was barely blocked by the Primarch's sword_'.


Being a Primarch does not make you a great fighter.


> Finally, when Alpharius and Omegon view the Acuity for themselves, they stagger backwards in horror screaming while a normal human weeps and a psyker dies. Does it make sense for such heightened beings to scream while a petty human weeps? It would make more sense in my opinion for the Primarchs to have wept given their greater depth of emotions and their inability to feel fear than to scream in abject horror/anger or whatever.


Maybe there was more of a reaction from them because their father is the most power psyker in the known galaxy and they are probably a bit warp at attuned which is why the psyker died.


> Also, given the fact that Alpharius and Omegon are twins, are we to assume it is because of this that we are expected to view their diminutive stature as being ok? Why are we expected to visualize them as not being like their hulking brothers but instead simply _bigger_ Astartes? Is it because they are one soul split into two bodies that their powers alone are generally weaker than their brothers?


Because all of the primarchs are designed for a purpose, their role as spies means being smaller is a good thing, they can at least blend into the other Space Marines. Hell we still do not know if one, both or none of them died at this point.


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## Deadeye776

Hard to run intel and covert ops when you are inspiring "divine" level of awe.


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## gen.ahab

Malus Darkblade said:


> Finally, when Alpharius and Omegon view the Acuity for themselves, they stagger backwards in horror screaming while a normal human weeps and a psyker dies. Does it make sense for such heightened beings to scream while a petty human weeps? It would make more sense in my opinion for the Primarchs to have wept given their greater depth of emotions and their inability to feel fear than to scream in abject horror/anger or whatever.


Where is it said that primarchs cannot feel fear? They feel fear just as the Astartes do. They usually just don't give a fuck and blow your head off regardless, but that doesn't mean they do not feel fear.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin

The sword cutting into the Primarch's armour was completely intentional on his part. As I read the bit after it, Alpharius/Omegon was basically saying that your best strike, with your best weapon, aimed best you can, only hit me because I allowed it to _and even so it didn't give me the slightest problem to have your sword stab me_. It was a psychological manouver to show the human just how worthless he was when compared to one of the Emperor's sons. Where other Primarchs might have shattered the Human's body, whilst leaving him alive; or stripped the flesh from his limbs with psychic fire; or rooted the man to the floor with sheet force of personality, leaving him unable think of anything ever again but the _weight_ of that mind's brilliance; those are the ways that Alpharius/Omegon's brothers would have illustrated how weak their opponent was. The boss of XX Legion just went a different way, as befits his/their style!

GFP


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## Malus Darkblade

The charisma and jaw-dropping aura the Primarchs give off is not a conscious effort on their part.  So no, Alpharius/Omegon do not actively strive to make themselves appear ordinary/mundane given their spy mentality. I am not saying they try to stand out simply because they are unique but that because they are primarchs, they are essentially celebrities whether they like it or not. And yet Namjitra treats him like an errand boy on a studio of a movie set.

The Primarchs do feel fear but it is of a different kind. Rogal Dorn's fear that Curze's visions were right all along wasn't the horror-movie sort rather a much deeper, more meaningful kind. 

The manner in which Alpharius/Omegon were depicted after viewing the vision spoke of the lesser kind and I would imagine that a Legion that prides itself on imagining every possibility occuring no matter how unlikely (their absolute dismissal of considering Horus turning traitor is another thing worth bringing up that dosen't sit well with me), that they would not react the way they did. Also seeing as how all the Primarchs are psykers in their own way, again I would imagine a more complex reaction as opposed to AHHH THE h0rr0r!!! The human whose name I forget weeping after seeing the vision felt much more powerful.

@DJ: Being a Primarch makes you the galaxy's most potent fighter without question.

Also I am not of the opinion that the Emperor planned a role for each primarch when they were test-tube babies rather they were shaped by their environment and the Emperor took advantage of their style of warfare. If not why then do we have so many primarchs/legions with similar traits (ie. Corax/Khan employing hit and run tactics, Corax/Curze/Alpharius+Omegon being all into stealth, Russ/Angron being berserkers/melee-oriented, etc.) thus making many of them redundant in a way. Perhaps only Mangus is an exception to this.




Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> The sword cutting into the Primarch's armour was completely intentional on his part. As I read the bit after it, Alpharius/Omegon was basically saying that your best strike, with your best weapon, aimed best you can, only hit me because I allowed it to _and even so it didn't give me the slightest problem to have your sword stab me_. It was a psychological manouver to show the human just how worthless he was when compared to one of the Emperor's sons. Where other Primarchs might have shattered the Human's body, whilst leaving him alive; or stripped the flesh from his limbs with psychic fire; or rooted the man to the floor with sheet force of personality, leaving him unable think of anything ever again but the _weight_ of that mind's brilliance; those are the ways that Alpharius/Omegon's brothers would have illustrated how weak their opponent was. The boss of XX Legion just went a different way, as befits his/their style!
> 
> GFP


Fair enough but then we have the scene where Alpharius barely parried Chayne's attack and then got impaled. At that point you can't say he was making a point too because Alpharius was intent on killing him, not letting him live to ponder about what just happened.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin

It didn't matter that he killed him; it was the entire point of the confrontation. He ends up dead, his last thought being that the blow he struck was only alloed to land because his target allowed it to, that the penetration of his target's flesh, penetration that would kill anyone else, mattered not at all. Just because the lesson didn't have long to be appreciated, doesn't make it any less of a lesson in who is in charge and where the power actually lies.
Chayne gets to die knowing that he was utterly powerless in the face of a Primarch, even one as seemingly unexceptional is Alpharius.
This is how I read the scene's meaning, so fair do's if you disagree. 

GFP


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## Grins1878

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Just because the lesson didn't have long to be appreciated, doesn't make it any less of a lesson in who is in charge and where the power actually lies.
> This is how I read the scene's meaning, so fair do's if you disagree.
> 
> GFP


That's how I read it also. He let the fellow give it his best shot so that he could see that it wasn't good enough. A kind of 'Is that it? Ho ho, even your best isn't good enough.' thing.

For the rest of it I think Djinn and GFP have covered all bases! :so_happy:


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## Djinn24

Malus Darkblade said:


> @DJ: Being a Primarch makes you the galaxy's most potent fighter without question.
> 
> Also I am not of the opinion that the Emperor planned a role for each primarch when they were test-tube babies rather they were shaped by their environment and the Emperor took advantage of their style of warfare. If not why then do we have so many primarchs/legions with similar traits (ie. Corax/Khan employing hit and run tactics, Corax/Curze/Alpharius+Omegon being all into stealth, Russ/Angron being berserkers/melee-oriented, etc.) thus making many of them redundant in a way. Perhaps only Mangus is an exception to this.


These statements conflict with each other. Are you saying, because they are born a primarch they are automatically good fighters due to genecoding? I mean the Primarch of the Word Bearers was not all that great and while their styles are similar, they are not the same. Corax and Khan both using blitzkrieg style attacks, but one is from the air, the other on the ground. A+O where into espionage, not just stealth. Russ was far from a berserker, Prosbero Burns proves this. He is the assassin/enforcer.

I wholeheartedly believe that each where genecoded with part of their fathers temperament.


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## MEQinc

Malus Darkblade said:


> We have Teng Namatjira, commander of the Imperial Army on the planet where _Legion _takes place completely _forget _that he in fact is talking to a primarch throughout the novel.


1) Namatjira is a very, very powerful man and one used to command. Such individuals are unlikely to enjoy threats to their leadership and are quite likely to be aggressive and confrontational in meetings with other leaders.
2) This is almost certainly the first time Namatjira has met a Primarch, he has no idea how to relate to one.
3) This is exactly the kind of response Alpharius wants. 

Given these factors it doesn't surprise me that Alpharius would hang back and play submissive to the commander which would further inflate the commanders ego and allow him to be manipulated more easily.



> Then we have Namatjira's bodyguard, Dinas Chayde analyze Alpharius/Omegon just as he would with a mere human and later on, he unintentionally jams the tip of his sword in Omegon's armor. A mere human managed to pose a threat to a Primarch's armor and bypasses his defenses and near the end of the book, he actually impales Alpharius fully with his sword and causes him to bleed but not before '_Chayne swung his sabre in, and it was barely blocked by the Primarch's sword_'.


1) Chayne is well established as a bad-ass. 
2) Other individuals, who have not been previously established as such, have injured Primarchs. 
3) I can't recall who's POV this scene (the fight) is from but it's quite possible they're mistaken. Look at the Lion v. Curze fight, the POV suggests that the Lion is dead yet we see moments latter that he's fine.
4) You're assuming that Chayne does in fact fight Alpharius and not just another marine. Indeed you're assuming Alpharius was involved in this story at all (though it does seem quite likely).



> Finally, when Alpharius and Omegon view the Acuity for themselves, they stagger backwards in horror screaming while a normal human weeps and a psyker dies. Does it make sense for such heightened beings to scream while a petty human weeps? It would make more sense in my opinion for the Primarchs to have wept given their greater depth of emotions and their inability to feel fear than to scream in abject horror/anger or whatever.


1) The vision is clearly highly psykic and has a stronger effect on psykic beings than normals. That the twins could be exposed and live suggests immense strength, that they suffered more is hardly surprising.
2) I'd suggest that the twins aren't horrified by the vision (unlike the human, hence their tears) but rather by what it means about the state of the Impeirum, their future and humanity. 
3) Some times people freak out. The Primarchs have repeatedly demonstrated that they really aren't that far removed from humanity (at least psychologically), so it's understandable that the twins might freak momentarily (they regain control very quickly).



> Also, given the fact that Alpharius and Omegon are twins, are we to assume it is because of this that we are expected to view their diminutive stature as being ok? Why are we expected to visualize them as not being like their hulking brothers but instead simply _bigger_ Astartes? Is it because they are one soul split into two bodies that their powers alone are generally weaker than their brothers?


Quite possibly. With less space (and presumably sustinance) for each individual to grow it is quite possible that they would have been smaller than their brothers. Remember also that they are taller than marines, additional steps have to be taken to make the change and even then it is apparent when the two are with regular marines. 



> I want to bring up the Alpha Legionaire's treating their Primarchs like bar-buddies as opposed to their father/commander like the other Legions do but perhaps given the realistic, pragmatic mentality of the Alpha Legion, this is to be expected so I won't get into this.


This sort of relationship is also present in some Legions (and appears to be very common amongst higher level members, which all of the Alpha Legion present are).



Malus Darkblade said:


> The charisma and jaw-dropping aura the Primarchs give off is not a conscious effort on their part.


Well it partially is and the rest in sub-consious (which means it can be subverted). A very large part of how people view you is how you carry yourself. The other Primarchs carry themselves like the Sons of God, Alpharious carries himself like a regular dude (because he intetionally wants to create that view). I don't doubt that if Alpharius wished to he could pin a man to the floor with his gaze, but he doesn't want to.



> I would imagine that a Legion that prides itself on imagining every possibility occuring no matter how unlikely (their absolute dismissal of considering Horus turning traitor is another thing worth bringing up that dosen't sit well with me), that they would not react the way they did.


1) The Alpha Legion do not pride themselves on imagining every possible outcome (that's the Ultramarines) but rather on knowing everything about their opponent before a fight is met.
2) Even if the Alpha Legion did think it knew every outcome doesn't mean they can't be wrong. Chessmasters can get surprised still. They are still 'human' and they can make mistakes.
3) Every single Primarch is shown to believe that one of their brothers turning is unthinkable. I would suggest that this might be coded into them (_The First Heretic_ suggests that loyalty to the Primarchs is gene-coded, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to learn that the Emperor did something similar to the Primarchs).


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## daxxglax

Malus Darkblade said:


> We have Teng Namatjira, commander of the Imperial Army on the planet where _Legion _takes place completely _forget _that he in fact is talking to a primarch throughout the novel.
> 
> Dare I say he dismisses Alpharius serveral times throughout the novel and does not revere him as the primarchs generally are by any figure throughout the Imperium despite their status. He actually turns his back on Alpharius at one point in the book, placing demands on him without even expecting a response and later on actually decides to fire upon him from orbit.


Namatjira is a very prideful man. If he was working under, say, Horus or Vulkan, he probably would have shown a lot more respect. However, the Alpha Legion was comparatively younger and less accomplished than the other legions and Namatjira regards their tactics with distaste.



> Then we have Namatjira's bodyguard, Dinas Chayde analyze Alpharius/Omegon just as he would with a mere human and later on, he unintentionally jams the tip of his sword in Omegon's armor. A mere human managed to pose a threat to a Primarch's armor and bypasses his defenses and near the end of the book, he actually impales Alpharius fully with his sword and causes him to bleed but not before '_Chayne swung his sabre in, and it was barely blocked by the Primarch's sword_'.


Chayne analyzes Alpharius Omegon because it's his job. He's Namatjira's bodyguard and a Lucifer Black; he can't afford to take chances. That's what a good bodyguard does. Also this:


Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> It didn't matter that he killed him; it was the entire point of the confrontation. He ends up dead, his last thought being that the blow he struck was only alloed to land because his target allowed it to, that the penetration of his target's flesh, penetration that would kill anyone else, mattered not at all. Just because the lesson didn't have long to be appreciated, doesn't make it any less of a lesson in who is in charge and where the power actually lies.


Of course, Chayne is a highly skilled opponent. Keep in mind Horus was grievously wounded by Temba, who despite being mutated by Chaos and possessed of the Anathame, was probably not all that a spectacular swordsman.
Alpharius let's Chayne stab him because that's what his tactics are based upon: Unflinching pragmatism. He knew Chayne's sword couldn't hurt his superhuman form and would be stuck in his armor, leaving the Lucifer Black open. That's how Alpharius wins.



> Finally, when Alpharius and Omegon view the Acuity for themselves, they stagger backwards in horror screaming while a normal human weeps and a psyker dies. Does it make sense for such heightened beings to scream while a petty human weeps? It would make more sense in my opinion for the Primarchs to have wept given their greater depth of emotions and their inability to feel fear than to scream in abject horror/anger or whatever.


I feel like it's more of an initial reaction. After all, they probably weren't screaming their heads off for 5 minutes or anything. It makes sense: part of that scream is probably anger at the Emperor's great works being destroyed.



> Also, given the fact that Alpharius and Omegon are twins, are we to assume it is because of this that we are expected to view their diminutive stature as being ok? Why are we expected to visualize them as not being like their hulking brothers but instead simply _bigger_ Astartes? Is it because they are one soul split into two bodies that their powers alone are generally weaker than their brothers?


This is a toughie. I can't say for sure, but it's in line with their characters. Alpharius Omegon is a slippery customer, dependent more on innovative tactics than out-and-out combat.



> We don't see any of the humans in the novel viewing Alpharius/Omegon in the same way we have seen them in other novels featuring different primarchs. Complete awe and utter disbelief, reverence and the inability to think or speak for several minutes. Instead we have backtalking-or as the British would say cheeky- human agents working for aliens completely disrespecting primarchs and not one human being in total shock that they are in the presence of a son of the Emperor.


Grammaticus doesn't care. He's gotten over his awe of the Emperor too. To him, they're just bigger humans, albeit in a better place to change things. Also, remember what I said before about the Alpha Legion's reputation.
Indeed, though, there is enough veneration to go around. The Geno holds a huge parade for Alpharius, Soneka abases himself, and Bronzi is just totally caught off guard.



> I want to bring up the Alpha Legionaire's treating their Primarchs like bar-buddies as opposed to their father/commander like the other Legions do but perhaps given the realistic, pragmatic mentality of the Alpha Legion, this is to be expected so I won't get into this.


Once again, this is part of how the legion operates. They see a strict hierarchy as too rigid. Units succeed as a team or not at all. This is how the Alpha Legion beat back the Ultramarines even after their Primarch was killed: there were multiple command cells, and the loss of one, even if it did contain the Primarch, did not affect the others too much. And that's the way Alpharius wants it. Alpharius Omegon is another member of the team, a part of a whole. An important part, to be sure, but they still achieve their aims through teamwork, innovation, and cooperation.



> Throughout the novel this element of admiration and respect a primarch normally commands is missing.


Because it doesn't suit their purposes. Alpharius Omegon doesn't care about admiration, he cares about results. It doesn't matter to him what normal guardsmen think of him; he's got his own agenda. Most people probably would view the Alpha Legion with suspicion.


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## Bakunin

Malus Darkblade said:


> We have Teng Namatjira, commander of the Imperial Army on the planet where _Legion _takes place completely _forget _that he in fact is talking to a primarch throughout the novel.
> 
> Dare I say he dismisses Alpharius serveral times throughout the novel and does not revere him as the primarchs generally are by any figure throughout the Imperium despite their status. He actually turns his back on Alpharius at one point in the book, placing demands on him without even expecting a response and later on actually decides to fire upon him from orbit.


But isn't this partly the whole point of the Alpha Legion? They manipulate and develop situations to suit their own ends. The tactic is to let others think they are in control and not being played. If the Primarchs worked like others, they would simply exert charisma or fear of their presence to make Teng Namatjira follow commands. Instead they allowed played his ego and belief of being better to get him to do as they wanted without even realising he was beign played. Through out Legion he thinks he is better than the only primarchs he has ever met and he thinks the Alpha Legion are an overrated force because this is what they are makiing him think to suit their own plans and style of fighting.

It is also showing some of the initial causes of the Heresy. The Primarchs saw themselves as the Emperors sons and the heirs to the Imperium. However the Imperium was not governed by them but by human aristocrats and generals who did not give the primarchs the respect that they felt they deserved. This is shown in other HH novels with the edicts sent out from distant Terra. Orders from the Emperor were not resented, but the Emperor is seen as havin given up his empire to humans while he does a science experiment in the basement. This feeling is manipulated by chaos and results in the heresy. Human generals and politicians did under estimate the legions and primarchs, often seeing them as useful military muscle but an obstacle to the real job of building the Imperium. The presence of a primarch was normally enough to dispel these feelings. Often, only a Primarch being present would inspire would make humans realise that they were something that was on another level. However Alpharius and Omegon chose to act and delibrately not inspire this awe because it suited their tactics and gave them the advantage of beign under estimated and there for the ability to assert control.




Malus Darkblade said:


> Then we have Namatjira's bodyguard, Dinas Chayde analyze Alpharius/Omegon just as he would with a mere human and later on, he unintentionally jams the tip of his sword in Omegon's armor. A mere human managed to pose a threat to a Primarch's armor and bypasses his defenses and near the end of the book, he actually impales Alpharius fully with his sword and causes him to bleed but not before '_Chayne swung his sabre in, and it was barely blocked by the Primarch's sword_'.


Again this shows the control Alpharius and Omegon had over situations. Dinas Chayde is a fighter at the peak of his abilitys, as good as you can get with out being genetically modifed (i.e becoming an Astarte). He is delibrately fooled and does not realise the true power of what he is appraising or the nature of it, only (if I remember correctly) that everything is not as it seems. Somehting that perfectly serves the Primarchs' purpose and allows them to control the situation through delibrate misinformation.

The fighting style of the primarchs continues along these lines, with them leading the opponent to think he has the upper hand, allowing the belief that defences are bypassed, before being destroyed.

If it was simply the Primarch's, such subterfuge might not be needed. However Alpharius and Omegon are fighting as part of their legion, building and developing it's tactics and advantages (hence the book title). They are not aiming to build their reputation, but how others ee their legion and underestimate how it can operate.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Finally, when Alpharius and Omegon view the Acuity for themselves, they stagger backwards in horror screaming while a normal human weeps and a psyker dies. Does it make sense for such heightened beings to scream while a petty human weeps? It would make more sense in my opinion for the Primarchs to have wept given their greater depth of emotions and their inability to feel fear than to scream in abject horror/anger or whatever.


It makes perfect sense. all primarchs were to a greater or lesser extent psychic, with a large warp presence. This resulted from that extra bit of love (or chaos as it is also known) added to the secret recipe used by the Emperor. The psyker dies, the Primarchs also recieved the full horror of the acuity. A mere human does not get it and so only cries, not understanding it's full horror.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Also, given the fact that Alpharius and Omegon are twins, are we to assume it is because of this that we are expected to view their diminutive stature as being ok? Why are we expected to visualize them as not being like their hulking brothers but instead simply _bigger_ Astartes? Is it because they are one soul split into two bodies that their powers alone are generally weaker than their brothers?


How big are the primarchs? This varies depending on what they are doing. When the primarchs are being portrayed as being awe inspiring generals, they are viewed as bigger than they actually are. Yet they can fit in crafts, such as thunderhawks, designed for astartes with 30 odd astartes (and walk down corridors of buildings designed for humans with out constantly banging their heads). Abaddon was so like Horus there were rumours that he was a clone. If a human had never seen astatres or primarchs before would it be that hard to get an astarte to pose as the primarch and to get the primarch to 'dress down' and act as just another astarte? 

Legion is about a legion that acts completely differently form other legions and delibrately destroys myths and perceptions that other legions and primarchs have built up. If you expect the primarch to act grand and larger thant life and then he doesn't, are you going to then presume the taller astarte in the background is the actual primarch?



Malus Darkblade said:


> I want to bring up the Alpha Legionaire's treating their Primarchs like bar-buddies as opposed to their father/commander like the other Legions do but perhaps given the realistic, pragmatic mentality of the Alpha Legion, this is to be expected so I won't get into this.
> 
> Throughout the novel this element of admiration and respect a primarch normally commands is missing.
> 
> Perhaps this is simply due to the small portions in the novel where the primarchs are featured hence the lack of space to go into more depth.


Yet this is also in keeping with the philosophy of the legion and how everything is questioned and nothing is presumed. Would Alpharius and Omegan really build this philosophy and encourage every astarte to be an independent thinker and fighter only for them to shrink into yes sir/ no sir type thought in their presence? Would they trust such astartes to pose as them at crusial moments potentially making vital descisions. Legion (and the Alpha legion) are about the sum of the legion which does not operate as individuals but as a group which effects and manipulates the situation. The novel never explores how individual Alpha legion marines think, only how they operate within the legion. They probably hold their primarchs in awe, but also realise that treating them like a father/ commander is not the way of showing it and not what the primarchs want. 

The humans who are inducted to serve the Alpha Legion note the coldness and isolation where the legion is greater than them and any hierarch. The legions philosophy of independent thought but not individualism, hierarchy or cults of personality supports the whole attitude shown towards the Primarchs. It is the opposite of normal hierarchical militaristic thinking where the individualism and thought of the commander is respected and enforced on the troops he commands. Here the thought and action of the group, the legion, is respected.


----------



## SoulGazer

So many walls of text. :shok:

In short, no, none of the book seems wrong to me. It all seems perfectly in line with how Alpharius/Omegon do things. Malus, I think you're just looking at them the same way their brother Primarchs do. "They don't act like everyone else, therefore there must be something wrong with them."

I think The Alpha Legion simply too awesome to act like regular Space Marines and I certainly hope they don't act like "normal" Chaos Marines when the new codex comes out.


----------



## darkreever

Bakunin said:


> Yet they can fit in crafts, such as thunderhawks, designed for astartes with 30 odd astartes (and walk down corridors of buildings designed for humans with out constantly banging their heads).


Spaces in the 40k universe are oversized to say the least. For us a room with ten feet from floor to ceiling might be considered big, but in 40k thats tiny.

Primafchs had no problem moving about locations or vessels because those things are far bigger in 40k.



Bakunin said:


> astarte?


Just a quick one here, the singular of astartes is not astarte, it is astartes. Its one of those words which is the same in both singular and plural form.


----------



## gen.ahab

Malus Darkblade said:


> The Primarchs do feel fear but it is of a different kind. Rogal Dorn's fear that Curze's visions were right all along wasn't the horror-movie sort rather a much deeper, more meaningful kind.


Fear is fear. It doesn't matter what it form is comes in.


----------



## Bakunin

darkreever said:


> Spaces in the 40k universe are oversized to say the least. For us a room with ten feet from floor to ceiling might be considered big, but in 40k thats tiny.
> 
> Primafchs had no problem moving about locations or vessels because those things are far bigger in 40k.


That is not what I meant. While modelling involves scaling up and down for the simple reason of making the model look good, it is safe to assume that a novel does not feature everything as oversized. Everything would of been built for what is an average height person. 

The grand structures of the Emperor's Palace might have grand corridors and massive halls, but this would not apply for strike cruisers, command bunkers etc. it makes so sense to build Thunder Hawks with excess space just in case they might on day carry a primarch. When a Thunderhawk is described as having room to "carry up to 30 power armoured Space Marines" it does not mean that they would then have loads of room to move about, it means that is the maximum a Thunderhawk can fit when they are all packed in.



darkreever said:


> Just a quick one here, the singular of astartes is not astarte, it is astartes. Its one of those words which is the same in both singular and plural form.


Thanks for the correction.


----------



## MEQinc

Bakunin said:


> That is not what I meant. While modelling involves scaling up and down for the simple reason of making the model look good, it is safe to assume that a novel does not feature everything as oversized. Everything would of been built for what is an average height person.


Actually that's not true, on two accounts. One, the models (of tanks) are actually smaller than they should, ever tried fitting ten marines into a Rhino , can't be done. Two, achitecture depends a *lot* on the people building it. Modern buildings tend to go for economy of space so ceilings generally aren't that much higher than people however this is not the case throughout human history. The Imperium is a grand, gothic empire and the style and image of gothic architecture is one of large and imposing spaces. It's subconsiously how the Imperium extolls it's glory and cows it's populace. Buildings in 40k are very large and very sturdy, which allows Marines and Primarchs to use them with ease.


----------



## Bakunin

MEQinc said:


> Actually that's not true, on two accounts. One, the models (of tanks) are actually smaller than they should, ever tried fitting ten marines into a Rhino , can't be done. Two, achitecture depends a *lot* on the people building it. Modern buildings tend to go for economy of space so ceilings generally aren't that much higher than people however this is not the case throughout human history. The Imperium is a grand, gothic empire and the style and image of gothic architecture is one of large and imposing spaces. It's subconsiously how the Imperium extolls it's glory and cows it's populace. Buildings in 40k are very large and very sturdy, which allows Marines and Primarchs to use them with ease.


I kind of agree and disagree  

As I said, the models are designed to look good, rather than be a specific representation of scale. This happens with all wargames models both for practicality and to look good. But in theory, if rhino's exsisted, they would be large enough to pack in 10 power armoured astarte (plus driver) as demonstrated in Imperial Armour 2. They would not have much room to manouvre and it would be a tight fit, but they would go in there.

Likewise, I agree there are plenty of grand buildings. I used the example of the Emperors palace, but there are plenty of other examples. However the point I was trying to make is that not everything is like this and some conditions would be cramped. The Primarchs, as warriors, would not be spending all their time in such buildings, but would regularly be forced to use areas (such as fortiifications or war on hive worlds) that were designed with only an average size human in mind. It is also stated that the Primarchs lived amongst humans and not always in grand gothic cities, before they were found. Significant problems of size are not documented with any of these situations.

I was not denying that grand architecture is portrayed in 40K (and 30K), but I was sayign not everything is like this and there are smaller spaces which the Primarchs have no real problem useing. This suggests the Primarchs were not significantly larger than astarte...


----------



## MEQinc

Bakunin said:


> As I said, the models are designed to look good, rather than be a specific representation of scale. This happens with all wargames models both for practicality and to look good. But in theory, if rhino's exsisted, they would be large enough to pack in 10 power armoured astarte (plus driver) as demonstrated in Imperial Armour 2. They would not have much room to manouvre and it would be a tight fit, but they would go in there.


1) Of course, I was speaking purely about the models. In theory of course the Rhino can hold ten marines, it'd be pointless otherwise.
2) It wouldn't actually be that tight a fit. Every source I've ever read shows Marines having pretty unimpeded movement, so this would indicate that space isn't really that tight.



> However the point I was trying to make is that not everything is like this and some conditions would be cramped. The Primarchs, as warriors, would not be spending all their time in such buildings, but would regularly be forced to use areas (such as fortiifications or war on hive worlds) that were designed with only an average size human in mind.


The point I was trying to make was that *nothing* in the Imperium is designed for normal humans. Not the hives, not the fortifications, not the ships. Everything about the Imperium is designed to be grand and impossing. 



> It is also stated that the Primarchs lived amongst humans and not always in grand gothic cities, before they were found. Significant problems of size are not documented with any of these situations.


Which suggests that they didn't have any problems, which in turn suggests that all the buildings were large enough to hold them without trouble. I was providing a fairly rational reason as to why.



> This suggests the Primarchs were not significantly larger than astarte...


Given that an Astartes in armour is roughly 8-9 feet tall they wouldn't be able to fit in most buildings (door clearance is generaly ~7' and no where near wide enough), adding a foot or two for the Primarchs means they wouldn't be able to get anywhere in a building designed for modern humans. Clearly the only way this works is if the Imperium doesn't scale for normal humans but rather for something much more impressive, as supported by every single picture I've ever seen of an Imperial building.


Also, sorry for derailing this thread.


----------



## Durant

> When a Thunderhawk is described as having room to "carry up to 30 power armoured Space Marines" it does not mean that they would then have loads of room to move about, it means that is the maximum a Thunderhawk can fit when they are all packed in.


I think this calls for the "How many Space Marines can you fit in a mini cooper" question to be raised.

I was not a fan of the HH novel Legion. If there was a redeaming part of the book however it would be the way the Alpha legion and its twin Primarch was portrayed.


----------



## Phoebus

I guess I'm the only person on this thread that came away thinking that Chayne did not, in fact, fight Alpharius? I'd even posit (not having read the book in a while) that perhaps Namatjira did not ever meet Alpharius, himself. :wink:

As for the effect the Acuity had on Alpharius and Omegon? They're demigod-like superhumans. They aren't invulnerable. Rogal Dorn goes into violent fits when simply presented by bad news. As such, I don't see how a super-psychic phenomenon purporting to show the inevitable doom of Mankind eliciting a scream from a Primarch is such a stretch.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

It was too simple a reaction Phoebus for a primarch given the gravity of what he witnessed, the entire heresy unfolding before his eyes in an instant. 

And if we get into that line of thinking then perhaps the Alpha Legion weren't even in the book or maybe Alpharius/Omegon weren't even in it.


----------



## MEQinc

Phoebus said:


> I guess I'm the only person on this thread that came away thinking that Chayne did not, in fact, fight Alpharius? I'd even posit (not having read the book in a while) that perhaps Namatjira did not ever meet Alpharius, himself. :wink:


You are not alone.


MEQinc said:


> 4) You're assuming that Chayne does in fact fight Alpharius and not just another marine. Indeed you're assuming Alpharius was involved in this story at all (though it does seem quite likely).





Malus Darkblade said:


> It was too simple a reaction Phoebus for a primarch given the gravity of what he witnessed, the entire heresy unfolding before his eyes in an instant.


Is there a better reaction to such an event than screaming? Just because someone is very smart or powerful doesn't necessarily mean that everything they do has to be subtle and nuanced. Indeed I think the simiplicty of the reaction helps underscore the significance. Alpharius' control cracks, he (one of the most controlled Primarchs) loses control.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Phoebus said:


> I guess I'm the only person on this thread that came away thinking that Chayne did not, in fact, fight Alpharius? I'd even posit (not having read the book in a while) that perhaps Namatjira did not ever meet Alpharius, himself. :wink:


I also think that. At the first meeting Omegon is posing as Alpharius, Pech and Herzog are both themselves and Ranko is playing the part of Omegon. Ranko then meets Chayne outside who proceeds to almost strike Ranko with his sword, to which Ranko informs him 'That's all you get', i also believe that Ranko allowed this hit as he didn't even begin to block it.

Later on when Namatjira meets 'Alpharius' for the second time aboard the _Blamires_, Chayne notices no difference between this 'Alpharius' and the one he met at the first meeting. We already know Chayne is very, *very* good at analysing people and now is even mroe suspicous of the Legion and its Primarch(s), yet he notices nothing different, which leads me to believe that once again Omegon was sent to pose as Alpharius(although granted they are identical twins. Even so i still believe this to be the case.).

Then finally as Namatjira attempts to escape he is cut off by 'Alpharius', who proceeds to butcher the Lucifer Blacks, with Chayne once again scoring a hit, one that might i add, does not even faze whomever it is he struck, not even a gasp of pain(another reason why i believe he allowed it to happen, along with the points others have said about letting Chayne know that even his best isn't enough), before he is promptly split in half, but not before 'Alpharius' informs him(again) 'That's all you get'. Which makes me believe that it was infact Ranko once again who confronted them and killed them, repeating his earlier phrase to Chayne. 

So yeah, i'm of the opinion Namatjira never once met Alpharius, infact only ever meeting Omegon, Ingo Pech, Mathias Herzog and finally Sheed Ranko, who killed him.


----------



## Djinn24

MEQinc said:


> 1)
> Given that an Astartes in armour is roughly 8-9 feet tall they wouldn't be able to fit in most buildings (door clearance is generaly ~7' and no where near wide enough), adding a foot or two for the Primarchs means they wouldn't be able to get anywhere in a building designed for modern humans. Clearly the only way this works is if the Imperium doesn't scale for normal humans but rather for something much more impressive, as supported by every single picture I've ever seen of an Imperial building.
> 
> 
> Also, sorry for derailing this thread.


This is not correct, space marines are on average 7' tall. Not 8-9ft. A/O are probably close to the 7.25-7.5' range. Normal Primarchs are 8.5ish feet. This is coming from Ploss who is sitting behind me who got this info from BL staff (since he is 7ft they where talking about him playing a Space Marine).


----------



## mc wazzahamma

Quick answers:

1. It would be plausible to imagine that Alpharius and Omegon have the ability to "dull" their aura of power and disguise their supernatural charisma, after all, their dad used to do it all the time.

2. They are always described by Abnett as "substantially larger" than their captains. They are never definitively stated to simply be "large as big astartes". Even the gigantic marine who officially stands in for them at times wears terminator armour.

3. Primarchs have also been described as feeling emotions deeper and more powerfully than human beings. They would also have a lot more invested in the idea of the Imperium, and it's clear that the idea of Horus' betrayal rips the two of them open. So I can believe that what they see in the acuity horrifies them beyond human comprehension. Corax lets out a shriek in battle, I can't see why his brothers can't do the same in emotional turmoil. Horus cries at the drop of a hat, after all.


----------



## SoulGazer

mc wazzahamma said:


> 3. Primarchs have also been described as feeling emotions deeper and more powerfully than human beings. They would also have a lot more invested in the idea of the Imperium, and it's clear that the idea of Horus' betrayal rips the two of them open. So I can believe that what they see in the acuity horrifies them beyond human comprehension. Corax lets out a shriek in battle, I can't see why his brothers can't do the seem in emotional turmoil. Horus cries at the drop of a hat, after all.


They probably did freak out at the prospect of the Imperium going to the Warp, but they had already concluded that the Emperor's vision of a utopian galaxy was flawed and was not realistic. Maybe it wasn't what they saw but how they saw it? The Warp is pure emotion and maybe seeing that far into the future just sorta overloaded them for a bit. They're not used to it, after all.


----------



## Phoebus

Where Astartes size is concerned, I believe a search through these forums would bring up a link to a podcast wherein the GW design team states that the average height for one of those warriors is 7.5 feet.

Sheek Ranko is described as an "exceptionally"-sized Astartes. Wikipedia has an interesting article on height. It cites a study pointing to "exceptional" variations in height amounting to about a 20% deviation from the norm. If Sheed Ranko can "[double] well for both Omegon and Lord Alpharius in diplomatic circumstances," then I would assume that both he and the twin Primarchs are right around nine feet in height. At any rate, Omegon (posing as Alpharius) is described as "considerably taller
than both of his captains."

The above helps, since most other novels don't give a precise height for the Primarchs, but instead describe them in comparison to their Astartes:

In "Rules of Engagement" (Age of Darkness), a Terminator is described as being "a full head and shoulders taller than the Ultramarines". Correspondingly, in "Flight of the Eisenstein", Mortarion is described as being "as tall in his deck boots as Typhon was in the First Company’s Terminator armour." It should also be noted that Mortarion is described as being "tall and lean".

In "Fulgrim", Ferrus Manus is described as "[standing] a head taller than his brothers".

In "Descent of Angels", the Lion is described as "a truly imposing physical specimen. A giant, standing at a little under three metres tall," and thus less than 9.8 feet tall.

Bottom line, I'm not sure that Alpharius' stature is that much of an issue.

What I do think plays a major role with the Primarchs is the "cult of personality" that the Primarchs exert on their Astartes. I think the (unmentioned) difference between the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus and the (for example) Dark Angels is that Horus plays up that aspect more so than the Lion. Astartes, like humans, are susceptible to the psychological ideal of the Primarch as a demigod, and thus different reactions can be expected from (for example) a Horus or a Rogal Dorn than a Lion.

How does this tie in to the original topic? Alpharius doesn't worry about that cult of personality where (e.g.) Namatjira is concerned. If not he, then definitely Omegon is involved in the scene where he makes a sort of obeisance toward toward the Lord Commander. I think he does so specifically to overcome the natural psychological effect Primarchs have over normal humans, to take advantage of that warlord's sense of superiority.

Rogal Dorn, for instance, never acts "inferior", and thus he always appears superhuman, demigod-like, etc. Alpharius/Omegon, who have to deal with that smaller stature to begin with, probably skip that whole process, and instead try to establish a different sort of advantage with that general's sense of superiority. The whole bowing and show of respect is calculated to ensure that Namatjira feels superior even as the Alpha Legion covertly works angles to their advantage.

Could the twin Primarchs have forced Namatjira to feel inferior to them in the way that (e.g.) Dorn interacts with others? Maybe. Do a degree (a smaller Primarch would not likely be able to take advantage of that psychological effect as a larger, normal, Primarch does). That's not their game, though.

Cheers,
P.


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## MontytheMighty

djinn24 said:


> space marines are on average 7' tall. Not 8-9ft. A/O are probably close to the 7.25-7.5' range. Normal Primarchs are 8.5ish feet. This is coming from Ploss who is sitting behind me who got this info from BL staff


would just like to confirm this point, in fact Jes Goodwin the GW designer pegs SM at 7ft _in power armour_ (around 6'8" naked probably)

in the below pic, *notice that the bottom of the marine's armoured boots are at the 1ft mark, not the 0ft mark*


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## Phoebus

Per Jes Goodwin:

"I say 7 to 7 foot six, because actually if you read the novels they get progressively bigger every time we write a novel."

Link to pertinent Podcast at GW's site.

Minutes 30-32 of the podcast specifically address Space Marine height. Goodwin feels that even sub-7 foot Astartes would be "scary". He points out that it's not necessarily the height of the Space Marine that makes them so intimidating (he points out there are basketball players today at that height range), but their sheer scale. He also references the sketch referenced, above. 

He has a point. With a couple of notable exceptions, people at that height range cannot even begin to approach the physique of an Astartes. The human body is typically not able to support that kind of mass. Enhanced skeletal structures solve that problem, though, and thus you can have someone the height of Yao Ming (who ended up retiring due to recurring foot and ankle injuries) and the physique of Nathan Jones (from the film "Troy").

Cheers,
P.


----------



## Chompy Bits

That's all fine and dandy, but why do we always then get the description of them "towering head and shoulders above even the tallest men"? Unless the average human in 40k is significantly shorter than they are now. But then, Ciaphas Cain was described as being around 2m tall and even he was dwarfed by a marine.

I mean, I know guys who are 2m tall or taller and pretty buff and they're not that intimidating. Just doesn't fit with the larger than life image I have of them.

That's why I've always liked the roughly 2.5m mark for marines in armour, as that would match how they are generally described in fluff when compared to normal humans. But then, that's just my opinion.


----------



## Phoebus

Chompy, I look at it one of two ways:

1. I don't see too many people on a day-by-day basis with a height of 6'6" or more. Assuming a 7 or 7.5 foot tall Astartes, and taking into consideration the licenses of prose, the height differential would be significant more often than not.

2. More importantly, though, it comes down to sheer scale. Even if Ciaphas Cain was two meters tall and shaped like a perfect athlete, what makes an Astartes exceptional is that they aren't just taller: they either maintain or exceed those proportions at their height.

With that in mind, even an individual like Nathan Jones (linked to, above) might approach an Astartes on the lower height range... but would be somewhat smaller, proportionately speaking. When standing next to an Astartes of the higher height range, though, he probably would seem "dwarfed" (to use an author's exaggeration) - especially due to proportions.

Then you have to take into consideration factors like power armour and the religiosity of the Imperium of Man.

The former of those two makes its wearer even larger. We know that the armour consists of thick ceramite plates and fibre-muscle bundles to assist the wearer in moving in it effortlessly. This means that the proportions of an individual in power armour will be even larger than when he's out of it. Astartes rarely interact with the lesser mortals of the Imperium outside their war-plate, and thus their proportions and scale will be that much greater. If Ciaphas Cain could reasonably be described as being dwarfed before (above), he most certainly can at this point.

The latter affects psychology. Astartes are larger than life in terms of physical proportions, but they're even larger than life in the sense that they carry the gene-seed of demigod sons of the God-Emperor. I've seen enough people go ga-ga over being around sports celebrities, remarking about their height and stature, to feel plausibly comfortable that an Astartes could humble even a large (normal) human being who subscribes to the official religion of his species. 

Cheers,
P.


----------



## Rems

In regards to the issues of astartes size Phillip Sibbering analyses the issue in great depth. It's not just an astarte's height that's intimidating but his sheer bulk. Compare the various profiles in the link. A basketball player at 7' 6" might be expected to weigh 360 pounds, a marine may weigh 780- unarmoured. They are huge, imposing beings. 

You may think 7 feet or so is not that tall but when you stand next to a man of that height it's bloody tall. Then imagine someone even taller and with a lot more mass. The average western height is around 5' 9" and i see little reason that would massively change. So a Space Marine is still comparatively tall. 

 Here's the Link fascinating stuff, well argued and rationalised.


----------



## Phoebus

I enjoyed Philip's article and agree with some of his points, but his ultimate conclusion is one I can't reconcile with.

His Marine Anatomy, section, for example, with a picture of Astartes power armour overlaid unto a Space Marine's body, offers almost no space between the surface of the armour itself and the wearer's body. One would have to accept that ceramite is minimally thin, but that can't be reconciled with this statement:

_"The power armour has similar thickness to a modern day IFV or APC, though using advanced ceramics, and offers excellent protection against small arms fire."_

Where fibre-muscle bundles are concerned, even if a minimal amount (as Philip offers) were to be used, they would still be...

_"... sandwiched within the superstructure frame plates, under the ablative armour plates."_

I'm not sure how this would help make the power armour seem thinner (as he offers later).

Bottom line, unless you're willing to accept very, very thin power armour (something that, well, kind of goes against the fundamental themes Jes Goodwin talks about in the same podcast Philip cited), then the dimensions Philip offers are unnecessarily large (read: probably too wide).

Where it comes to Marine Size, I'd argue that the baselines used are also unrealistic. It's not hard to get a list of each and every 7ft+ tall basketball player in the NBA. Of those, the number of individuals with the physique template shown are sparse: Shaquille O'Neal - at 7'1", or individuals like Dwight Howard (if you're willing to fudge an inch or two). The taller the player gets, the less likely they were to approach the "basketball player" physique shown there. By the time you get to 7'6", Yao Ming is the only player who could even approach that illustration... but ultimately falls short, both in terms of torso and shoulder width. The rest in his height range look decidedly thinner and lankier.

Finally, it comes down to the form actually allowing you to perform certain tasks. Astartes are shown being able to perform complex physical/athletic movements, unencumbered by their physical shape and size. Dwight Howard (at 6'11") is such a successful athlete precisely because he's so well-proportioned despite his height and size. Nathan Jones (at 6'10") was another one of my examples because as a participant in strong-man competitions and as a professional wrestler (fake as it is) he had to be able to perform athletically in a variety of environments and exercises. Ditto for NFL linebackers and defensive ends, rugby players, etc. That's the kind of physique you would see (and perhaps exaggerated a little more), though at a very unrealistic height - and reinforced by enhanced skeletal structures.

What happens when you get bigger? It's not just a matter of strength. Jay Cutler, a four-time Mr. Olympia body-builder, *can't swim.* Because of his body-shape. Can you imagine what kind of restriction he would face trying to perform dynamic combat maneuvers in power armour, much like Ragnar in the "Space Wolf" novels?

Food for thought!

Cheers,
P.


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## Malus Darkblade

Where did you hear that Jay Cutler can't swim?

If this is just based on his body type than hundreds/thousands of other bodybuilders like him can't swim either which doesn't seem likely.


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## Phoebus

Jay Cutler himself said so in his interview to FHM, before his first Mr. Olympia win. 

Where bodybuilders in general are concerned, I'd offer that most don't approach Cutler's shape and size... and thus are unlikely to suffer his limitations.


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## Malus Darkblade

Interesting. I get made fun of for not being able to float in water lol.


----------



## Baltar

Aahhh. This thread is talking about size and scale now.

There is NO point in discussing it, because writers for GW have NO concept of scale.

I have read books from BL saying that a warhound titan is only 30m tall (that is ridiculously small - anyone who really knows how far 30m is will agree) and that a warlord is only 50m. 50m? Have you ever BEEN to a public swimming pool? I'd put it at more than 500m - an olympic running track is only 400m, and that's nothing when you think of it stretched out. A warlord titan, however, is enormous.

It seems that the artists are so much more accurate in their depictions than the writers. I see titans (such as a warlord) being depicted in their true scale (being actually gargantuan war machines, the size of skyscrapers or even bigger - see the front of Titanicus - it shows the size well. However, Abnett describes them as being pathetically small - clearly he's never seen a ruler). Likewise, I've seen canonical images of space marines being easily 3m tall (not large! a house door is only about 2m, and they *shouldn't* fit through that easily). However, we then have moronic writers describing marines as being 7ft tall.... How lame...

Someone should sit all of the writers and artists down together with an engineer or something, get the artists drawings out, and say to the engineer "how big is that in meters, roughly?" - then the writers would have a sense of scale.

Why do I see marines being described as just the size of a tall man.....

Why do I see land raiders being described as the size of a volkswaggen....

Why do I see a f'cking couple of kilometer tall imperator titan (which can hold a battalion of men) as being only a couple of hundred meters tall....

WHY DO YOU NOT KNOW SIZES? It's not hard.

Rant over.

EDIT:

Having thought about it, they get the scales of warships wrong too. They talk about some imperial warships being a couple of kilometers long, when they need to be *at least* ten times that size to house the crews that are described.

For instance, there have been battleships with severely (IRL) cramped crew quarters (bunks on top of bunks) being crewed by only a few hundred people, that are, say, 500m long (0.5km). How can something a couple of kilometres long house tens of thousands of people?

Why is any of his so hard for them to figure out?

It makes them seem seriously silly.

I definitely hate reading about a titan than could squish a metal gear under one of its toes as being only fractionally taller than such an MG. Really damn annoying.


----------



## Rems

Titans have never been as large as you claim Baltar. The fluff is pretty consistent on their sizes. Warhounds are about 15m or so, Reavers up to the 25 mark and Warlords 30 to 40 with Imperators coming in at 60 or so. They have always been described at such heights, from epic (the spin off game where they originated) to novels. 

If an Titan were kilometer (or more) sized they would be unable to walk. It just wouldn't happen. 

As for ships, capitals range in size from 6km to 12km (depending on class etc). Escorts are much smaller. 

Marines at 3m? Ive' seen a few terminators described as such but never marines. You appear to have inflated a lot of these numbers and the general sense of scale. Which is a bit odd as there's no evidence for the number's you're throwing around.


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## darkreever

Rems said:


> As for ships, capitals range in size from 6km to 12km (depending on class etc). Escorts are much smaller.


Space stations and very small space hulks maybe, but capitol ships in 40k aren't quite that big.

The escorts of the Imperium range from about half a kilometer to a kilometer and a half. Cruisers vary from three to five/six kilometers, and battleships go from five to nine kilometers.


And as for the space, please Baltar you make it sound like ships are a single deck or something. Not the dozens upon dozens of decks they often are supposed to be.


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## Baltar

15m for a warhound titan? That is like 3 cars stacked end to end.

That's what I imagine a dreadnought to be looking at.

50m is the length of an olympic swimming pool - an imperator titan may transport (according to fluff) a battalion of imperial guard. How could something only 60m tall hold hundreds and hundreds of troops?

Bolt runs 100m in less than ten seconds.

You clearly also have NO concept of scale... at all...

Skyscrapers are pushing hundreds of metres.

As for Darkreever - to hold tends (or hundreds) of thousands of people, the ships would *need* to be tens of kilometres long. It's simple maths. All you need to do is work out how much cubic space per person, after space for engines, weapons, equipment, etc, they would need - and you're not even nearly going to fit them into something a couple of kilometres long.

BTW WW2 battleships were almost 0.5km long, had only crew numbering in the hundreds, had dozens of decks, and the crew had literally bunks on top of bunks (no free space for the crew, really - just like I'd imagine an imperial ship to be). So how could tens of thousands fit into a ship only a couple of kilometres long?

Answer: it couldn't. Either the writers or the fluff is inaccurate.

As for the titans and space marines - people need to learn how long one metre is. It's a very short distance. A house door (an inner door) is 2m (give or take about 2cm). Space marines are regularly described as being tall enough for a normal man's head to reach their chest - this puts a marine in armour at being significantly taller than, say, a house door.... i.e. half again - 3m is not that enormous...

GW HQ has a full scale boltgun - let me put it to you, the barrel of the gun is nearly twice the width of a beer can, and the length of the gun is around one meter. The marine carrying it is going to make it look like a chunky submachine gun. Do the maths.

And now titans: look at the artwork. Titanicus is probably the latest addition (among many other sources), and space marines are like fleas around their feet - if not smaller. Don't cite epic as a source - the models aren't to scale (just like they aren't in 40k). Even if a marine were only 2m tall (and they aren't - they're taller according to artwork and schematics of armour), then standing ten marines head to head would be 20m - a warlord titan is going to be more than a hundred times the height of a marine (way more) and that's already at 200m assuming a 2m marine (which is stupid, cus a marine would be taller). I'd put a warlord as, say 500m easy. About the length of a modern battleship - which when compared with the size of a man on deck, is not that colossal - look at real images. An olympic running track is 400m, and it's not far. People run it in seconds, and if you've ever been on one you could easily imagine it stretched out into a line that isn't long.

Why wouldn't it be able to walk if it were more than a km tall, exactly? What are you basing that analysis on? If the whole thing were in proportion, it would be fine. Besides, it's 40k technology. Easy to write off in the fluff.


----------



## darkreever

Baltar said:


> 3m is not that enormous...


Thats what? Just shy of ten feet tall?

I'm hairs under six foot, but if marines in full power armour were three meters tall then I would barely be getting over the waste of most marines. I could see 2.3 meters, thats in the ballpark of seven and a half feet, fully a head and then some over anyone my height and easily putting them eye to chest with a marine.


----------



## Baltar

Bare in mind that in 40k normal men are described as being over 2m (Ibram Gaunt is, regularly - and he isn't enormous compared to other IG brutes). Unless you want to admit Abnett has no idea of scale?

Talking of realistic scales - I'd say ten feet is too big even for a marine in armour. I'd say 9 sounds about reasonable. It'd put a tallish guy's head at about... what... just below chest/at stomach height? Sounds reasonable given depictions of marines (in armour - which I am assuming adds a fair amount of bulk).

As for titans - here is a GW drawing:










Let's say the man is average height (but prolly isn't, given 40k - he's prolly taller). So 185cm. Just shy of 2m. That titan is hundreds and hundreds of times taller than he is. The picture doesn't even show the proportionally largest part of the titan - the lower legs - and it's still completely massive. The man is also way in the foreground, too.

Titans. Hundreds of metres tall.

Any vessel holding tens or hundreds of thousands of people - dozens of km long (literally impossible for anything else to be true).

For comparison, here's the battleship Missouri (just shy of 0.3km long), with a crew of only hundreds:










The crew do NOT look that small.... I see pictures of titans where the space marines around their feet are like grains of sand. Titanicus having the best cover art to show that.


----------



## Phoebus

Baltar, don't be so selective (and inaccurate) with your figures. :wink:

The USS New Jersey had a crew complement of 1,920 men and was 270 meters long - about half your cited length. Multiply its length by 5, take into account the greater height and width of an escort, and all of a sudden the five-figure crew doesn't sound so unreasonable.

Ditto for the WWII aircraft carrier USS Yorktown, which was 250 meters long and had a crew complement of 2,600 men.

Bear in mind that the newer USS Ronald Regan is only 333m long and has a crew of almost 5,700 men and women.

Dimensions and crew sizes for 40k warships make sense.

I can live with Warhounds being as small as they are. I will, however, agree with you that the Warlord and Imperator Titans should be larger. 

Cheers,
P.


----------



## Lord Azune

The largest (STC style) titan is the Imperator Emperor class Titan, which is 43m tall. Also, Art depends on how you feel about the subject. Whose to say that you feel its larger because its a friggen imposing giant mechanical death machine?

As for the ships, the only fact you take into account is how long they are. How wide are they? What is their depth? How many floors can be crammed into that area? How many beds? How many of the crew are servitors which need neither sleep nor food (if I recall.. or very little).


----------



## Baltar

The titan figures really are ridiculous:

We have descriptions of titans carrying city-destroying weaponry, and yet here is a graph showing how large titans would be compared to buildings if the titans were as big as the figures given by authors










Ridiculous. That imperator is NOT going to be wiping out any cities, and it isn't going to carry a battalion of men...

And we have mountain sized pics of warlords like this....










Please note the size of the ladder on the front of the gattling cannon (don't remember the actual name of that weapon arm). It's actually hilarious.... And yet awesome... Because it's how the authors begin to describe the titan sizes in words... and then they give a tiny little figure in metres, and it's like WTF.










And I'd like to point out this Heresy era pic of a warhound titan from the HH artwork... MUCH bigger than 15m...










That's a dreadnought and some terminators shooting up at it... Those tiny ant things...

PS: All of these pics are GW artwork - not fan fluff.


----------



## Baltar

Phoebus said:


> Baltar, don't be so selective (and inaccurate) with your figures. :wink:
> 
> The USS New Jersey had a crew complement of 1,920 men and was 270 meters long - about half your cited length. Multiply its length by 5, take into account the greater height and width of an escort, and all of a sudden the five-figure crew doesn't sound so unreasonable.
> 
> Ditto for the WWII aircraft carrier USS Yorktown, which was 250 meters long and had a crew complement of 2,600 men.
> 
> Bear in mind that the newer USS Ronald Regan is only 333m long and has a crew of almost 5,700 men and women.
> 
> Dimensions and crew sizes for 40k warships make sense.
> 
> I can live with Warhounds being as small as they are. I will, however, agree with you that the Warlord and Imperator Titans should be larger.
> 
> Cheers,
> P.


Nice 

I'm wiling to concede, then, that we could have tens of thousands of men in a ship only a few km long.


----------



## Rems

darkreever said:


> Space stations and very small space hulks maybe, but capitol ships in 40k aren't quite that big.
> 
> The escorts of the Imperium range from about half a kilometer to a kilometer and a half. Cruisers vary from three to five/six kilometers, and battleships go from five to nine kilometers.


I could have sworn i had read of some that large- Ironclads for example. That said i agree, a Retribution is 8km if recall correctly, on the larger end on the scale certainly. 

As to how the large crews fit in? Well for starters there is going to be a lot of space, no doubt about it. Also large corporations of a ship's crew is going to be indentured slave labour, who would not have very good living conditions. 

Also the 5 figure crew numbers are usually thrown about in relation to the capital ships; which are easily large enough to accommodate them. Escorts are noted as having single digit thousand crew. 



> Bare in mind that in 40k normal men are described as being over 2m (Ibram Gaunt is, regularly - and he isn't enormous compared to other IG brutes). Unless you want to admit Abnett has no idea of scale?


I wouldn't call someone like Gaunt representative of the average man. I can think of one other man at that height- Commissar Cain. These are the exceptions, not the rule. Both have also received some of the highest quality (as attainable by the 'average man') living conditions growing up thanks to the Schola Progenium. 



> The titan figures really are ridiculous:
> 
> We have descriptions of titans carrying city-destroying weaponry, and yet here is a graph showing how large titans would be compared to buildings if the titans were as big as the figures given by authors



Titan sizes given in the fluff do not match up with the impression given by the art. I would take the side of the fluff however, rather than an artists impression. Art is rarely truly representative or exact. Look at all the various interpretations of the primarchs or the way marines are drawn. Which is correct? Bolters are often depicted ejecting cases which is wrong, bolts are caseless. 

The hard numbers come up again and again in the fluff. That is what they are. Images might make them seem larger but they are not 'fact', merely suggestions and impressions. 

Besides if a titan was a kilometer or more as you suggested it would not be able to walk. You just couldn't have a bipedal walker of that size mobile. The issue of balance alone would be a huge problem.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

MontytheMighty said:


> would just like to confirm this point, in fact Jes Goodwin the GW designer pegs SM at 7ft _in power armour_ (around 6'8" naked probably)
> 
> in the below pic, *notice that the bottom of the marine's armoured boots are at the 1ft mark, not the 0ft mark*


While I use that photo a lot myself as reference, what a lot of people miss is that the Space Marine's feet are about _5 feet apart_, from the outer edge of both boots. 

Stand up with your feet that wide - with three freaking feet space between your ankles, and your feet slightly angled to the side. Then stand up straight, and note the difference. Remember, height is always measured when standing up straight.

That picture with Jes is actually the very best proof to show Space Marines are 7ft tall standing with their boots between 3 and 5 feet apart; that makes them taller when standing straight. Try it yourself, and see how much taller you get when standing naturally, or at attention.

Even a casual glance at the picture shows that the Marine's not standing at attention or parade rest, he's a third of the way to doing the splits. 

By GW's own reference schematics, then... they're about 7 and a half feet tall. And assuming the average male human height of 5 ft 10 to 6ft, with all the variances of a foot or so in either direction, there's a perfectly valid case for Space Marines of any height.


----------



## Baltar

Rems said:


> Besides if a titan was a kilometer or more as you suggested it would not be able to walk. You just couldn't have a bipedal walker of that size mobile. The issue of balance alone would be a huge problem.


That's just a load of rubbish without any kind of basis in fact. A large object would be easier to balance than a small one because it has far more inertia. You're talking crapola on this point.

As for the artist impression:

Yeah, sure. It's just one interpretation. However, I'd point out that the art is usually consistent, whereas the fluff never is. Written word from books describes the titans as being as large as they are in the images, but only the quoted figures of the sizes actually differ. The descriptions of city destroying weapons, huge gargantuan war machines, etc etc, all match the art. Only the actual size in metres given by some authors differ. It's not consistent.


----------



## Baltar

Rems said:


> Bolters are often depicted ejecting cases which is wrong, bolts are caseless.


Again, this is wrong. Not ALL bolters are caseless. Some had shell casings. There have been, like, a bazillion designs of bolter....


----------



## General-jwj

I gotta agree I usually imagine things WAY bigger than they actually are in the written word ... but then again I agree with what was mentionned before, the art usually shows things much larger than they really are.

There was this comic book by Boom! Studios written by Dan Abnett where a Black Templar in full armour stood in front of a tall muscular human (a savage from a feral world) and he definitely looked to be in the upper 2 meters, if not almost 3 meters in height.

Oddly enough the Dreadnoughts seemed to be at the correct scale compared to the Marines, which suggests the Marine's size is up for debate but the relative size of the equipment and such things around stays the same.

And yeah, when I read "the Machine-Gods go to war" or whatever and see the art I usually envision the bigger types of Titans as lumbering mountains that appear over the horizon and just don't stop getting bigger and bigger the more they approach ...

But then again I'm usually surprised when I see most models "in the flesh" and they turn out much smaller than I'd expected.


----------



## Baltar

Model size doesn't mean anything. They aren't made to scale. Loads of discussion has already been given about that. The land raider model size is particularly amusing (again, especially compared to artwork which shows it being absolutely gigantic - which it would need to be to carry a load of marines/terms).


----------



## Baltar

And yeah, I feel the same: When I read 'God machines' that's what I picture.

I do NOT just imagine the mech-warriors going to war.... Which is something far smaller...


----------



## Rems

Baltar said:


> Again, this is wrong. Not ALL bolters are caseless. Some had shell casings. There have been, like, a bazillion designs of bolter....


Name me one type of bolt that has casings. Every description of both bolters and their ammunition describes them as caseless. 



Baltar said:


> That's just a load of rubbish without any kind of basis in fact. A large object would be easier to balance than a small one because it has far more inertia. You're talking crapola on this point.


So you seriously think a kilometer+ high walker is feasible? With articulated legs hundreds of meter's long? It is not going to be well balanced whilst moving. Nor is movement going to be particularly easy given it's weight and limb length. 



Baltar said:


> As for the artist impression:
> 
> Yeah, sure. It's just one interpretation. However, I'd point out that the art is usually consistent, whereas the fluff never is. Written word from books describes the titans as being as large as they are in the images, but only the quoted figures of the sizes actually differ. The descriptions of city destroying weapons, huge gargantuan war machines, etc etc, all match the art. Only the actual size in metres given by some authors differ. It's not consistent.


The written descriptions say they are large yes, but never mountain sized or however large the art depicts them as. A 50m tall war machine is still a gargantuan war machine. Something that large, moving about and firing devastating weapons at you will still be terrifying. 

Their weapons are still city destroying, they just don't do it in one shot. (You would want a ship for that) But they were never said to be able to. A warlord titan is fully capable of destroying a city given some time.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Rems said:


> So you seriously think a kilometer+ high walker is feasible? With articulated legs hundreds of meter's long? It is not going to be well balanced whilst moving. Nor is movement going to be particularly easy given it's weight and limb length



We are talking about the same universe right? Try not to apply too much real world logic into these things. A titan lander should never really able to get back into orbit when you take into account the mass it would have and the sheer amount of thrust that would be required to even begin to lift it. Theres endless cases of real world logic just not applying in 40k, it's either expained away with some future technology of some sort, or completely ignored. A several hundred meter high warmachine being able to move isn't really anything compared to the rest of things possible in 40k.

The astartes size debate can go on forever, but i'm 100% with Baltar on the size of titans. The 'actual' sizes given are just absurd for the descriptions of the machines themselves and their capabilities. I mean seriously, so let's say the titan is 50m tall(lol, really its just a massive fucking lol), that puts its legs at say 30m, with leg below the knee joint being 15/20m. Now how on earth do you even begin to explain entire battalions of troops being houses in a 20m block, with a massive portion of that leg being dedicated to armour, servos and all the other tech needed to get that thing moving. It's just fucking stupid.

Sure 50m is still intimidating, but it doesn't even begin to do justice to the decriptions of a titan. How could the artwork all be so wildly off, i mean theres not a single piece of artwork which has a titan even approaching these supposed 'actual sizes'. They are all in every instance shown to be hundreds of meters tall and nobody has a problem with that because it fits in perfectly. I gurantee if some artwork started appearing of 50m high Imperator titans, peoples eyebrows would start raising and complaints would begin.


----------



## Rems

Well for starters the idea of a whole battalion of troops garrisoning a Imperator titan's legs (the only titan with garrisoned troops) is wrong. It was originally (and to my knowledge has not changed, if so source please) a company of troops spread throughout the whole titan, cathedral spires and battlements included. Which would actually fit. 

I do agree though that there seems to be a obvious disparity between the stated sizes and what is shown in art. I would reiterate though that the art is designed to look impressive and convey theme rather than fact.


----------



## Baltar

I think the picture of the scale of quoted figures of titans compared to real buildings says everything.

When I picture the Eiffel tower and an Imperator titan, I picture it smashing the whole fucking thing down without effort (as described when the writers tell of Imperator titans laying absolute waste to entire fortresses that are no doubt far more formidable than the Eiffel tower...)

However, that picture shows that, if the quoted figures were correct, then an Imperator titan would be minescule.

I used to do a lot of archery, and the medium Gents shooting distance was 50m. It's nothing, and it's not impressive or 'gargantuan', and it certainly doesn't describe 'God machine'.

As for the bolters - read HH books. There have been references to older pattern bolters using shell casings. Also, older pattern boltguns, post Heresy, have always had chamber ports for shell casings. AFAIK - only newer pattern bolters use caseless rounds.

I completely agree with Angel of Blood - 50m is not huge, and is a fucking LOL when it comes to an Imperator titan.

It's mech-warrior sized, not titan size. It's simply a case of writers not really having any grasp of distance. Perhaps I'm being too harsh, and it's not easy to get a handle on scale - I've made mistakes in this thread on it myself already - but taking a look at the size of large buildings, titans should be rivalling that easily.


----------



## Baltar

Angel of Blood said:


> Now how on earth do you even begin to explain entire battalions of troops being houses in a 20m block, with a massive portion of that leg being dedicated to armour, servos and all the other tech needed to get that thing moving. It's just fucking stupid.
> 
> Sure 50m is still intimidating, but it doesn't even begin to do justice to the decriptions of a titan. How could the artwork all be so wildly off, i mean theres not a single piece of artwork which has a titan even approaching these supposed 'actual sizes'. They are all in every instance shown to be hundreds of meters tall and nobody has a problem with that because it fits in perfectly. I gurantee if some artwork started appearing of 50m high Imperator titans, peoples eyebrows would start raising and complaints would begin.


Yeah, this, entirely.

Even if it's 'only' a company of troops, it's still fucking stupid. A company is still a large number.

They talk about 'cathedral spires' and crennalations on an Imperator titan - at 50m tall it could have ONE church spire.....

Artwork literally depicts an entire cathedral-like structure on its carapace, and that alone would make it larger than 50m.


----------



## General-jwj

As far as the "boltgun casing" thing goes ... doesn't the Ultramarines movie have them ejecting shell casings ? Because I just checked and that's definitely the case.

Unless the movie wasn't considered canon or something.


----------



## Baltar

Not all bolter ammo is caseless. It is as simple as that....


----------



## darkreever

Cam you give some non illustration sources to back up that claim Baltar?


----------



## Baltar

Outcast Dead has mention of bolter shells with cases, for a start. Pretty sure it's been in other novels too, but I'd have to look through them to check.


----------



## Baltar

PS: After a small an unthorough search, it seems GW actually once made a 'spent bolt shell casing' cup to use as a water holder for a paint station...

Lol. Hardly canon, but it says all that needs to be said.


----------



## thebinman

Bolters also used to fire little rockets as far as I remember, to do with the game being skirmish based. Luckily thats all been forgotten...

As an aside, didnt they use caseless ammo in Aliens too?


----------



## Baltar

They still fire self-propelled explosive rounds, and AFIAK always did. There just seems to be some debate as to whether or not bolters have always been caseless. I know that the Thunder Warriors certainly used rounds with cases for their boltguns, but I am also certain that later patterns of BG used cased rounds too - I just can't think of any concrete sources for it. After reading another thread on the subject, someone mentioned that a 2nd edition wargear book says that the *autogun* shoots caseless rounds and not the bolter, but I have no idea if that's accurate.

I'm pretty sure that the whole 'caseless' thing comes down to the pattern of bolter/ammunition. Certainly, the boltguns have always had ejection ports too.


----------



## thebinman

Also got me thinking about the Heavy bolter. Cant remember or not if it was caseless. 

Its hardly cannon but I remember a painting in the Space Hulk rule book where there was spent cases on the floor


----------



## Baltar

Lexicanum:

"Each bolt is contained within a cartridge which includes a small conventional powder charge. When fired, this charge launches the bolt while simultaneously igniting its solid fuel propellant, which is timed to do so once it is clear of the barrel.4 The cartridge is then ejected, clearing the breech for the next round, while the bolt accelerates towards the target under its own power.4 This system helps alleviate the problem in using rocket-propelled munitions, as the gases are not trapped within the barrel and cannot cause problems due to over-pressure.4 The two-stage process also keeps the weapon's recoil to manageable levels, compared to conventional weapons of similar calibre.4"

It cites: : Imperial Armour Volume Two - Space Marines and Forces of the Inquisition, p. 250 

End of story.


----------



## darkreever

Baltar said:


> End of story.


Indeed, or at least for most people it will be. I'm sure that even with a source, there are gonna be people out there who will still fight you tooth and nail on the subject.

I mean, I'm willing to bet there are some bolters that use case-less bolts, but we quite clearly have a source showing that they do in fact eject spent shell casings.


Also in the story _Liars Due_ from _Age of Darkness_, one of the characters has in his possession a spent bolt pistol shell casing. Another character questions whether it is from where it is claimed to be, which can also then question if it is a bolt round, but I digress.


----------



## Baltar

I don't cite this as being a source to claim that bolters universally shoot rounds with cases - I am pretty certain I have read more than once that bolters use caseless rounds.

I'd prefer to let this simply be an example of where published canon gives conflicting information.


----------



## Angel of Blood

In _Flight of the Eisenstein_, Garros houscarl Kaleb, has a figurine of sorts made from a spent bolt casing.


----------



## Baltar

It's larger than a warhound titan, too.


----------



## Rems

Baltar said:


> Lexicanum:
> 
> "Each bolt is contained within a cartridge which includes a small conventional powder charge. When fired, this charge launches the bolt while simultaneously igniting its solid fuel propellant, which is timed to do so once it is clear of the barrel.4 The cartridge is then ejected, clearing the breech for the next round, while the bolt accelerates towards the target under its own power.4 This system helps alleviate the problem in using rocket-propelled munitions, as the gases are not trapped within the barrel and cannot cause problems due to over-pressure.4 The two-stage process also keeps the weapon's recoil to manageable levels, compared to conventional weapons of similar calibre.4"
> 
> It cites: : Imperial Armour Volume Two - Space Marines and Forces of the Inquisition, p. 250
> 
> End of story.


Thank you, one source was all i asked for to prove the existence of bolts with cases. Though the 3rd ed rulebook and every single space marine based codex do state them to be caseless. Therefore we can infer that it is in fact dependant on the mark of bolter and they type of ammunition. 

It's so much easier to back up your argument when you cite sources isn't it?


----------



## Baltar

Hey, I count illustration as a clear source. In any other field of research, illustration from the *actual* source (in this case GW) would be valid. Only here, it seems, people are disregarding it... No idea why they feel that's appropriate...

All of the pictures I cite are GW publication material - and the black and white drawn pic, and the large colour picture of the mountain sized Warlord, are actually taken from the Warlord Titan comic - in which every single picture is just as large as that. It's an actual graphic novel published by GW. If it was wildly inaccurate, I think they'd have taken issue with it.

Written word is not the only valid source. Stop imposing imaginary rules of argument.

Your counter that 'art is subjective' blah blah, in reference to the pictures, is not even a coherent argument - written word is just as much of an artistic interpretation as the visual art, and should be treated as though it's as equally subjective.

There are way more pictures (and by many different artists) showing enormous, skyscraper sized titans than there are books giving ludicrously small measurements. That says a lot.


----------



## Rems

Yet those books are all consistent with one another. Which would suggest that the writers and artists are operating from two different scales. Or that the artists are deliberately enlarging the scale to make their subject seem more impressive and thematic. It could be either. 

The reason i choose written evidence over visual in this case is because it is the fluff, the written stuff, which comprises the bulk of the background information and which is most readily accepted as cannon. Which is most often written from an omniscient, 'factual' viewpoint. 

I'm not saying there is a right or wrong answer, just that i am inclined to follow the written accounts rather than the visual. You're not wrong for preferring the visual sources. It's a similar issue to that of Sanguinius hair colour for example. He is visually depicted with blond hair yet the Heresy books (the latest and most complete cannon we have for the period and its participants) mention him with black. (Yes this is an incredibly trivial example but it illustrates my point of the often occurring disparity of the visual versus written sources).


----------



## Baltar

Well, firstly, the same thing can be said of the artistic impressions: On the whole, they are consistent.

Secondly, while the majority of fluff is now described in word - all of that written detail is based on original artist drawings of pretty much everything in the 40k universe.

Actually, the original artist drawing of Sanguinius shows him with black hair (Given by John Blanche):










Technically, this is the first concept art of Sanguinius, and the *writers* changed his hair to blonde...

The same goes for the size of titans. All of the artwork given with the original Epic game shows titans as being enormous. I had epic, and I do not ever recall any actual sizes being given (in terms of numbers) at that time.

Since then, the *writers* have decided to change the fluff... It's ridiculous.

Saying that, I personally prefer Sanguinius with blonde hair - and looking at the official HH artwork, they have kept pretty much everything about Sanguinius, right down the intricate detail of his armour, identical to the original concept art, except for the hair colour.

Everything, including the written fluff, is based on the original artwork given by GW. It's where all of the written descriptions come from in the first place.

Hence why it's probably the most valuable source...


----------



## Rems

I've been doing a little research and it seems from the very beginning Titans were indeed in the height ranges i presented before- that is under one hundred meters. 
_
Adeptus Titanicus_, the first version of epic, where titans made their debut states them to be up to 100 feet in size. 

_Titan Legions_ lists titans 10 to 40 metres tall. 

_Epic 40,000_ says titans are up to 200 feet tall, which would be 60m and where we get the modern measurements from. 

So while they have grown over time they've always stayed in the under 100m size range. It's a wonder then where the artistic depictions as overly huge came from as the written source material has always been consistent.


----------



## Baltar

And yet the original boxed set of adeptus titanicus came with styrofoam skyscrapers as scenery, which were about as large as the titans..........

Seen any 100 feet tall skyscrapers lately?


----------



## Rems

What's you point?

Don't try to strawman please. Model skyscrapers scaling to 100ft or not is besides the point. You yourself pointed out earlier in this thread that the scales of models is wrong and irrelevant (referring to the storage capacity and size of a rhino). 

I was merely stating what the various sizes of Titans were said to be from their earliest mentions which have been fairly consistent over the years yet despite which are in seeming contradiction to the visual sources.


----------



## Baltar

And I also pointed out that the visual sources (including those provided with the earlier games) are all also consistent in showing them to be massive. I also showed that you can't *really* consider a visual source to be any less credible than a written one.

So, really, my original point still stands:

Writers describe the actions, movements, general aura, and destructive capabilities of titans as being gargantuan, hundreds and hundreds (if not km) tall God machines.

The pictures describe exactly the same thing.

The only thing that doesn't are the quoted figures.....

Because, like I said, whoever came up with them probably wasn't picturing accurately what those lengths actually were...

100ft titan... LOL... what a joke... Surely you can't be serious in thinking that fits the rest of the fluff?


----------



## Bakunin

Baltar said:


> Writers describe the actions, movements, general aura, and destructive capabilities of titans as being gargantuan, hundreds and hundreds (if not km) tall God machines.
> 
> The pictures describe exactly the same thing.
> 
> The only thing that doesn't are the quoted figures.....
> 
> Because, like I said, whoever came up with them probably wasn't picturing accurately what those lengths actually were...
> 
> 100ft titan... LOL... what a joke... Surely you can't be serious in thinking that fits the rest of the fluff?


Or you could argue that the pictures don't fit the rest of the fluff. There are plenty of pictures which match the quoted figures, including the pictures from original epic games. The heights were based on the original models in comparison witht he epic infantry models. 

Imperial Armour Volume six quotes a Reaver as being 22.3m (p.119) and the next two pages has a painting of a Reaver with a Krieg guardsman at it's feet. Once again it is argueable that this fluff is worng while other paintings are right however it should be noted that the Imperial Armour books aim at adding detail that is normally ignored in 40K in order to enhance games.

So basically the backing for 'smaller' Titans comes from the original Epic games, all official Titan models, all rules that allow titans to be used in games (both 40K and epic scale) and a large proportion of the artwork. This means that the support for larger titans is reduced to artists interpretation and some writing in black library fiction.

One last note, the foam 'sky scrapers' that came with Adpetus Titanicus only went up 10 to 12 floors. The doors and windows were about right for 6 mm marines. These actually support the stated fluff for Titan sizes.


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## Baltar

Yes, but as more than one person has pointed out, the epic models were not to scale in any way at all.

Take, for example, the size of a land raider - I couldn't fit ONE epic space marine comfortably into it, never mind a squad or two.

If they made models to scale, they would have to be enormous (in both 40k and epic).

All this is besides the point though: As I recently mentioned after citing a source to show *some* fluff describes bolters as shooting rounds with cases, fluff is contradictory. None of it ever agrees with the rest, really, because it's all written by different people.

In that spirit, we could go on arguing forever - the fact remains that there is a great deal of fluff on both sides that shows a hugely differing portrayal of titans. On one side, we have those who are determined to see a titan as being rather small (and that is not an understatement), and on the other those who would regard the fluff both describing and depicting them as gigantic as being accurate.

Now, since that's the case - and I'm repeating myself - it's probably better to actually consider the capability and general use of titans (and their description in novels *other* than the given figures of sizes in metres). Upon that consideration, assessing a titan as being 100ft or even 200m tall is rather silly... Simply because it wouldn't leave them even nearly as 'titanic' as they are described to be.

To give one of many possible examples, I clearly remember battles described in Mechanicum (Mechanicus?), the HH novel, where titans were casually strolling around Martian topography that dwarfs the mountain ranges of Earth - and doing so in very short time scales.

It's things like that (although that is only one of many examples) which simply would not be possible given a size of hundreds of feet. Describe a Warlord titan as something remotely reasonable, such as, say, 500m (so not the couple of km perhaps I was announcing), and we have a figure that goes well with both the majority of images and with the apparent abilities of titans as a whole. Saying that, and going by relative comparisons of a Warlord titan and an Imperator titan (i.e., from something like Storm of Iron), we can infer that the Imperator is roughly a third again as tall, if not slightly larger (but saying it's double is definitely pushing it a lot), then we can find a reason to start describing an Imperator as being, say, 1km (at most) when talking about the very peaks of the cathedral housed upon its carapace.

Unless everyone is cool with accepting an entire Imperator titan only carries a fairly small church hall on it's back, with a lonely bell tower or something, which I guess would be a valid opinion - but it still seems titanically lame to me (and rather unfair towards both the stories and images of titans, without even any mention of the probably inaccuracy)...


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## Baltar

It's also good to mention at this point that a Warlord titan has actually appeared in film. The game Final Liberation featured a CGI sequence showing a Warlord leaving its enclosure, and in the scene where the titans foot is shown close to the observers, the two humans watching were like ants to a human (if not smaller):






CLEARLY not only 100ft tall. Fucking LOL at 100ft.

No need to even mention that this is an old model of Warlord titan, and each model was smaller than the next...


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## MontytheMighty

Imperator Titans are described as 60m tall in BL
to me, that's somewhat ridiculously short

if were it up to me (of course I'm aware that it's not), but if it were...they'd be 500m tall


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## Baltar

Bakunin said:


> Imperial Armour Volume six quotes a Reaver as being 22.3m (p.119) and the next two pages has a painting of a Reaver with a Krieg guardsman at it's feet. Once again it is argueable that this fluff is worng while other paintings are right however it should be noted that the Imperial Armour books aim at adding detail that is normally ignored in 40K in order to enhance games.


22.3m... Are you smoking 10kg of crack in 10 seconds?

A normal public swimming pool - HALF a full swimming pool - is 25m.

You're telling me that a REAVER titan is like the length of 4 cars?

A fucking GK Dreadknight, maybe. Which, I'd quite like to imagine could be kicked like a football by a Reaver titan.


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## MEQinc

Baltar said:


> 22.3m... Are you smoking 10kg of crack in 10 seconds?


Dude. He's not making this stuff up, he's directly quoting source material. You might not like it but that's hardly his fault. 

The fact is that source material directly states the heights of several models of Titan, while art and descriptions tend to contradict these numbers. Both are equally valid as an interpretation of fluff. This argument isn't going anywhere, because both sides have plenty of supporting evidence, and it's derailing the topic massively. Agree to disagree and move on. k:


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## Baltar

I'm not questioning his citation of the fluff.

I'm questioning the blind acceptance of gibberish figures. It's basically blindly saying that if I stood 10 marines, head to head, then they'd reach the top of a Reaver titan.

In the wildest fantasy, maybe.

(not to mention a person would then be able to transport an entire company of titans on a modern cargo ship quite easily - quite at odds with the gargantuan loader ships described in the HH novels...)

But yes, let's move back onto topic.


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## Bakunin

The rule book for Space Marine (second edition epic) stated that epic was a game in scale and if necessary to use 'models eye' view point to solve questions of line of sight.

It is true that all war games models are slightly stylised for practical reasons and to look good (so a sword is not the width of tin foil and a pistol is noticeable in the models hands) epic models were not stylised to the extent. I don't know which land raider you had seen, but the models I've played with always appear to have no problem to fit 6mm marines inside. 

Some of the more stylised, poorly modeled epic mini's were replaced with Epic 40K (3rd edition) and forge world did release models which were basically scaled down versions of the 28mm models. However there was never any massive difference in the size. My forgeworld shadowswords are only about 1 cm larger than my standard epic shadowsword. Detail on all models was always based around 6mm height humans. For example, Gargants had ladders, doors etc. designed for models that height. 

The clip from the computer game is simply wrong. But then it is a computer game, as opposed to the game. Dawn of War allows you to continuallly replace Space Marines, is that in official fluff now? I heard FIre Warrior had a Bolter round being out run. Is that also now in official fluff? I know these are stupid examples, however the fluff continually and consistantly gives Titan sizes as 20-50m (depending on the Titan). Apocalypse uses this PDF

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA...Imperial_Datasheet_-_Emperor_Battle_Titan.pdf 

While this might not sound grand to you or sufficently titanic, this is the size that GW have gone with and consistently used in their games systems and models.

Fiction describing titans as bigger is aimed at fitting the story and the mood of the story. All storys are aiming to capture moods as they appear to the character, rather than providing cold historical documents. What is seen as relentless slaughter might not actually produce the number of casualtys written down. But writing "The intense fighting only produced two casualtys but scared the rest of the imperial guard" is not as readable as writing "the Blood Pack attacked and killed without mercy, causing terror and panic amongst the Imperial Guard." 

Likwise, saying the "Titan towered high" is describing its appearance and sounds better than "The Titan was only 22.3m, but this would be quite intimidateing if you actaually saw it..."

At least thats my explaination for the differences. It works for me, but I can see the problems


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## Baltar

So you see no problem with fitting ten of those marines into a Rhino, then?

The models are NOT to scale. Ever. In any of the games... With perhaps the exception of the 54mm inquisitor models...

The men are almost as tall as the tank, and they are all supposed to be strapped in wearing harnesses, space for engines, driver, etc etc...

Even if you made the Rhino 4 times the size - in other words, twice as long - then you'd still have trouble. So, let's take 8x times the size - so 4 times as long - then you might have something worthwhile.

Apply the same scale to the titan models - and you *might* have something reasonable, but still smaller than it should be.


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## Bakunin

You mentioned epic models and fitting epic scale (6mm) marines inside. I simply made the point that they could fit in it. I also made the point that it is generally accepted that all wargames models are not exact scale replicas, but rough aproximations and some degree of stylisation.

The rhino above probably couldn't fit ten marines. But it is roughly correct size and scale for what it represents. It is not use to represent something that would be massively larger if done to correct scale.

I'm not sure what you mean by stating that the men are nearly as tall as the rhino. Most tanks I've seen are only slightly taller than the average person, would be extremely cramped inside and are not that long. Take the Warrior APC. It is 6.3m long and 2.8m high. Not much longer than a Renault Sedan (which wikipedia says is 4.17m and 1.41m high). This is just a random example, but it shows an APC with mounted cannon is not that much bigger than an average car. Why do you think a rhino would have to be that massive to fulfil it's role of getting Astartes into battle as safely as possible? The model might not accurately depict the Rhino's stated length of 6.6m, but it provides a suitable model and presence on the games table to approximate and suggest this without everything else seeming to be over large or small. Titan models (in both epic and 40K) do the same thing and the fluff backs up the size of the models.

Anyway I get the feeling that we are going round in circles and really off topic. If you want to imagine titans, Astartes and tanks much larger then thats fine. After all it's not going to effect the rest of the fluff is it?


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## Baltar

Right.


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## Angel of Blood

You genuinely think Rhinos are the correct size and scale? Uh-huh.......

On another note about Titans size. Just starting to read Eisenhorn again, and his gun-cutter is mentioned to be 80m's long. So essentially his gun cutter is as big as Imperator titan, bigger even....yet no one seems to look at his gun-cutter as a god machine, or terrifying. The things crew is minimal, it barely accomadates Eisenhorns smaller team, yet these titans are carrying battalions? Yeah, because that adds up.


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## Baltar

Now comparing modern APC with a Rhino....

There is now absolutely no point in this discussion. All sense and reason has gone way out of the window when comparing a transport designed to carry ten superhuman warriors in battle armour with a (by comparison) tiny, tiny, tiny modern transport.

The Rhino in epic (and all vehicles in that game, in fact) is not even slightly to scale. Has no bearing of scale whatsoever.

If you want the most ridiculously scaled model, look at the thunderhawk. Or the titans. Both are absolutely tiny.

I'm going to leave this one, now, simply because sense is not prevailing. At all. The desire to worship figures quoted by people with no idea of the length of one metre is astounding.

But, before I go:










That thing flying at the back. Yeah. Thunderhawk. How many of these marines is that supposed to carry again?

It's DEFINITELY to scale! I read it!

Those Land Raiders. Yeah. Two squads of troops fit in those. They are to scale....


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## Rems

Lovely, actual debate has descended to hysterics and strawmanning; thanks Baltar. 

Obviously we're not going to come to agreement. A lot of the imagery shows titans as truly huge whilst the actual figures- both from the game system and black library publications say something different. Choose to believe one or the other. 

I think this thread is done, yes?


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## Baltar

The Warlord comic (whatever it was actually called) is a BL publication 

I like how the argument comes to a close and you nicely list a bunch of stuff that makes the argument sound heavily weighted in your favour. It amuses me greatly.

You make it sound as though the entirety of GW and BL is at your end of the story, when it's clearly not the case...

Oh well.

I can live with the Empire state building being 25m tall. It's amusing. Damn, I can swim *really* fast...


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## Phoebus

If the authors are getting the wrong idea in terms of size, we can't blame them for failing to appreciate the size and scale Games Workshop advertises.

Even those illustrations that aim to give an objective portrayal, without artistic license, show the Titans to be smaller than what many of us might expect. Ironically, this specific illustration reinforces the idea of the Reaver being "only" 22m tall, given the Krieg Guardsman shown in relation.

Just throwing that out there for consideration. 

Cheers,
P.


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## Longfang1234

Its been said before but yeah being a Primarch does not necessarily make you an amazing fighter. Alpharius and Omegon were specifically spys, albeit heavily armored spies with big guns. Just like Lorgar was more of a preacher the Twin Primarchs preferred espionage and subterfuge. Also, the Lucifer Blacks were known as some of the greatest warriors in the Imperial Army were they not? Trained from birth and they have no doubt analysed Astartes fighting style, especially if they served under them?


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## Malus Darkblade

Longfang1234 said:


> Its been said before but yeah being a Primarch does not necessarily make you an amazing fighter.


Stopped reading here.


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## Baltar

I personally had the impression from reading it that Alpharius pretty much allowed the Black to stab him, showed him that his stabbing was like an ant to a tyranosaurus rex, and then subsequently killed him with absolutely no effort at all.

That seems a fitting resolution to a fight between a primarch and an unenhanced man.


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## Longfang1234

hahahahahahahaha fair enough. Bit of a bold statement.


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## Baltar

I think you're right, though.

The Lucifer Black was bodyguard to *the entire imperial army*.

I think there may have been some measure of skill involved, and Alpharius pretty much conceded the blow to the Black - and I think that was about as much respect for the Black's skills as Alpharius was willing to offer, regardless of the fact that it had, well, absolutely no ill-effect on Alpharius whatsoever. I think that was the entire point. It demonstrated that no matter how skilled the Black was, his efforts were entirely hopeless in the face of a primarch. If anything Alpharius actually allowed it in order to highlight that fact.

A "you are completely futile compared to a being like me" sort of gesture.

That's pretty much what I got from it, anyway.


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## Longfang1234

That doesn't really fit with Alpharius' character though does it? I never got the impression he was of a 'I am mightier than a mere mortal' mentality. Maybe I'm missing it and all the Primarchs have that flare.


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## Baltar

I don't think he generally carries that attitude, but I do think his capabilities would allow it.

I don't think it's a general thing that fits with his character, but I do think it was coming out a bit during that scene.

I think he prefers the stealth approach so much, rather than getting stuck in, that when it actually came down to a simple fight with the Black, he actually was almost bored with it. I think the attitude was something like "Well, if we going to do this....."

And then just did away with him casually and without effort, I think with actual disdain for having to resort to it. I think he found the whole thing so pathetic that he thought he'd actually display just how pathetic it was with his little act.

* There is also the general Astartes ethos to consider:

At the end of the day, no matter what quirks or traits a particular legion has, an astartes and will simply resort to having to fucksmash whatever they come across. I am reminded of this more than once, in particular with the Thousand Sons. They actually talk about it being refreshing to just get back into the general thrashing of enemies with normal weapons and brute strength/speed/skill, rather than other traits. It's always going to come back out in them because it's part of who they are at a genetic level.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

I would just like to point out that you are both assuming that the Lucifer Black stabbed Alpharius himself.


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## Baltar

Was that not explicitely clear in the text?

Could another assumption be that Alpharius moved into the blade?

If so - does that actually change what I said about Alpharius's attitude to it?


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## Malus Darkblade

He is implying that perhaps it wasn't Alpharius who fought him.


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## MEQinc

Baltar said:


> Was that not explicitely clear in the text?
> 
> Could another assumption be that Alpharius moved into the blade?
> 
> If so - does that actually change what I said about Alpharius's attitude to it?


I believe that CotE is suggesting that the Astarte may not have been Alpharius, rather than the Astarte/Alpharius stabed himself. After all we have only context and Chayne's belief that this is Alpharius, which in the context of the AL doesn't mean a whole lot.

And, ninja'd.


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## Angel of Blood

Read my post a few pages back(think its in this thread). I'm almost certain it's infact Sheed Ranko that Chanye fought at the end, 'that's a you get' pretty much confirms this for me, though of course you can never be 100% sure of anything with the Aloha Legion, I'm pretty sure it was Ranko, also easily explains how Chayne even landed a blow, even thought still agree that Ranko allowed him to land the blow to trap him and show him how futile his efforts are/were.


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## mc wazzahamma

Angel of Blood said:


> Read my post a few pages back(think its in this thread). I'm almost certain it's infact Sheed Ranko that Chanye fought at the end, 'that's a you get' pretty much confirms this for me, though of course you can never be 100% sure of anything with the Aloha Legion, I'm pretty sure it was Ranko, also easily explains how Chayne even landed a blow, even thought still agree that Ranko allowed him to land the blow to trap him and show him how futile his efforts are/were.



Agreed. Sheed says "That's all you get" at least once before, maybe even twice. Implying it might be a favourite line of his.


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## Baltar

Angel of Blood said:


> Read my post a few pages back(think its in this thread). I'm almost certain it's infact Sheed Ranko that Chanye fought at the end, 'that's a you get' pretty much confirms this for me, though of course you can never be 100% sure of anything with the Aloha Legion, I'm pretty sure it was Ranko, also easily explains how Chayne even landed a blow, even thought still agree that Ranko allowed him to land the blow to trap him and show him how futile his efforts are/were.


Wow, that's a cool thought.

Still: Astartes/Primarch - "That's all you get" seems fine to me. Seems fitting between some tiny, puny human and an astartes/primarch.

Either way, he's gonna get dicksmashed.


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