# Where will the horus heresy books endd?



## Stern Guard (May 29, 2011)

I have not started my horus heresy books yet (i own the first 3) because im finishing off rynns world. I know that crimson fists arent in it and im going to read them primarily for the info on imperial fists and rogal dorn and basically what went down in the heresy but i have been wondering if they will go into the details of the legion breakdowns after the traitors had been defeated?


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## Bane_of_Kings (Oct 28, 2009)

They will most likely end with the Seige of Terra. I believe it has been mentioned (Although I'm not sure, I think at Black Library Live! 2011), they don't intend to cover the period of history known as "The Scouring", in the Horus Heresy series.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Bane_of_Kings said:


> They will most likely end with the Seige of Terra. I believe it has been mentioned (Although I'm not sure, I think at Black Library Live! 2011), they don't intend to cover the period of history known as "The Scouring", in the Horus Heresy series.


That's right.

For avoidance of doubt you will not get:

The Scouring
Destruction of Caliban
Iron Cage

These may be covered in another series.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

increaso said:


> That's right.
> 
> For avoidance of doubt you will not get:
> 
> ...


Iron Cage *must* be a Space Marine Battle novel. I'll throw a fit the equal of Kanye West if it isn't.

_'I'mma let you finish your Fall of Damnos, but the Iron Cage incident was the best post-Heresy battle of all time!!!'_


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## Alvarius (May 10, 2011)

bobss said:


> Iron Cage *must* be a Space Marine Battle novel. I'll throw a fit the equal of Kanye West if it isn't.
> 
> _'I'mma let you finish your Fall of Damnos, but the Iron Cage incident was the best post-Heresy battle of all time!!!'_


Destruction of Caliban also. Make that into a trilogy, it has so much potential.


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## Stern Guard (May 29, 2011)

what is the iron cage incident?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

It's the incident where Rogal Dorn committed nearly his whole chapter to take down Perturabo despite it being an evident trap. He basically used it as penance for what he saw as him failing the Emperor. It was after the legions where split into separate chapters.

Doesn't Caliban fall apart during the Heresy? Either way I can't see them not continuing the story line from Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels, I would of thought they'd include it.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

The HH will never end it makes too much damn money.


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

I'm pretty sure the destruction of Caliban happened before the end of the heresy, right a the end, but before it nevertheless. It's gotta be included, a betrayal of a brother going on side by side with the betrayal of the sons on Terra, like the whole heresy in microcosm!

maybe I built that up a bit just there...


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Doesn't Caliban fall apart during the Heresy? Either way I can't see them not continuing the story line from Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels SNIP


Me neither, but I am not speculating.

At BLL they (I forget the specific author) expressly named the Destruction of Caliban as one of the events that would not be covered due to it being post-siege.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The Heresy ended when Horus was defeated and the traitor legions fled Terra. The Scouring then began, now seeing as the Dark Angels came to Terra at the end, they couldn't have been back to Caliban yet. Factor in them helping to resecure the Sol system and its neighbouring systems, going to take a while to get back to Caliban.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I thought the Dark Angels started coming to Terra after Caliban had "self destructed"?


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Ya see the great thing about the HH is that their is so much unexplored areas that can be elaborated on that will help keep the series going for a long time. I mean like wih the first 3 and fulgrim and many of the others which gave us different POVs of the same battle.


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> It's the incident where Rogal Dorn committed nearly his whole chapter to take down Perturabo despite it being an evident trap. He basically used it as penance for what he saw as him failing the Emperor. It was after the legions where split into separate chapters.


This isn't entirely accurate. Dorn committed his entire LEGION to the Iron Cage incident. Nowhere that I am aware does it say Dorn used it as penance; only that he was either opposed to the chapter split and it took being bested at the Eternal Fortress by Perturabo for him to finally agree, or that he was going to make the last act of his Legion to be to bring back Perturabo in an 'iron cage' before deciding how best to split his Legion into chapters.

These two depend on your fluff source, but my understanding of the Chaos Codex is that Dorn didn't want to split his legion until after Guilliman saved the Fists from the trap to which Dorn had led them. I will admit to not having it immediately in front of me.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

space cowboy said:


> This isn't entirely accurate. Dorn committed his entire LEGION to the Iron Cage incident. Nowhere that I am aware does it say Dorn used it as penance; only that he was either opposed to the chapter split and it took being bested at the Eternal Fortress by Perturabo for him to finally agree, or that he was going to make the last act of his Legion to be to bring back Perturabo in an 'iron cage' before deciding how best to split his Legion into chapters.
> 
> These two depend on your fluff source, but my understanding of the Chaos Codex is that Dorn didn't want to split his legion until after Guilliman saved the Fists from the trap to which Dorn had led them. I will admit to not having it immediately in front of me.


Read the Imperial Fist Index Astartes article. It was his Chapter, because it muses on him sitting back and letting the Black Templars and Crimson Fists lead the way for a bit.

His Legion had already been split, otherwise there wouldn't of been enough Imperial Fists left after the Iron Cage incident for the two chapters to be created. 

In fact it states, that what was left was a battle hardened veteran army, which if you know about the successors, couldn't possibly of been split into the chapters as Sigismund wasn't present at the Iron Cage as he was Grand Marshal of the Black Templars and the Crimson Fists where made up of the newer members of the original Imperial Fists legion.

Dorn knew full well what he was getting into, he wanted to purge himself and his chapter like the Imperial Fists used the Pain Gauntlet as a penance device. He refused Roboute's help and continued to do so up until the point the Ultramarines forcefully intervened, this was shortly after Perturabo decided not to confront Dorn and ran away like a little girl 

Imperial Fists is like my favourite chapter/legion, I've read as much as I can on them but for some reason I can never bring myself to make an army of them, mainly because I find it hard to paint yellow and don't want to do them an injustice


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I thought the Dark Angels started coming to Terra after Caliban had "self destructed"?


Nope, was after. The Lion is specifically stated as being on his way to Terra, which of course would be impossible if Caliban had already been destroyed.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

perhaps when they decide to bring the HH to a close they will move on to fleshing out other parts of the 40k mythos


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

Im with Spore. They will just change the series name but still carry on!


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

It'll be The Scouring Series imo, bet there's tons going on there, even stories we don't yet know as there's only one or two epic moments known right now, bet there will be more created.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> It'll be The Scouring Series imo, bet there's tons going on there, even stories we don't yet know as there's only one or two epic moments known right now, bet there will be more created.


Im positive their are pleny of stories we havn't heard of in the series. Hell the missing Primarchs is a biggy everyone wants to see fleshed out. At least almost everyone. 

Hell their are stories inside of stories like what in the time it took the emerpor to walk to the other golden throne to relieve himself.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

The missing Primarchs will never be fleshed out simply because GW intentionally made them unknown so that fans could create their own Primarchs and Legions.

As to the Fall of Caliban, I doubt they'll do it as it happened after the HH. The series will end with the Siege of Terra, when Heresy ends itself. Everything after that is part of an entirely different event as already mentioned.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

I just think its time. This missing primarch thing has finally lost its luster and now I feel they should flesh it out.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

TheSpore is right in that they'll never and the series, there'll be countless spin offs and prequels and stuff until the end of mankind itself. I would love them to do the Fall of Caliban, and the Iron Cage would be good as well. About the missing primarchs, I think they should feature briefly, but not be the subject of a book as it would ruin the mystery surrounding them.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Akatsuki13 said:


> The missing Primarchs will never be fleshed out simply because GW intentionally made them unknown so that fans could create their own Primarchs and Legions.
> 
> As to the Fall of Caliban, I doubt they'll do it as it happened after the HH. The series will end with the Siege of Terra, when Heresy ends itself. Everything after that is part of an entirely different event as already mentioned.


That was the old excuse, however now there's definitely an explanation as to what happened to them, they've been mentioned in four of five of the heresy books with indications pointing to the fact the surviving Primarchs know what happened to them.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Yet despite all those mentions of them in the HH series we haven't actually learned anything new beyond that Russ and Wolves may have been ordered to remove one or both of them. Everything else has been just more of the same. Also there's never been anything in the old fluff to suggest that the Primarchs didn't know what happened to their missing brothers. And if they were going to tell their tale, why is it that every time they are brought up it is quickly quashed. If they were going to reveal them why not use those moments to drop real hints about them rather just 'they're gone so don't talk about them'. Secondly, why write novel(s) about them when we already know that they and their Legions are gone before Horus was appointed Warmaster?

Again it's a matter leaving enough creative space for fans and players to create their own. They know that as much as the fans love the fluff and stories they and the Black Library come up with, fans also what to be able create their own. That's why there are tons and tons of SM Chapters and CSM warbands that are nothing more than paint schemes. Because fans want to create their own warbands, Chapters and Legions as well as tell stories of their accomplishments. They won't create the missing Primarchs simply because it would rob us fans of the ability to create our own Primarchs and Legions and fit them into the vast mythos of 40K.


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## Stern Guard (May 29, 2011)

I know i might sound like a noob but how were the grey knights formed i know next to nothing about them other than they were formed after the heresy and that they are superior to space marines and are the custodian guard space marines or are they something else? (please remember im still getting my head around all the background)


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Stern Guard said:


> I know i might sound like a noob but how were the grey knights formed i know next to nothing about them other than they were formed after the heresy and that they are superior to space marines and are the custodian guard space marines or are they something else? (please remember im still getting my head around all the background)


Righto.

The Grey Knights were originally founded sometime after the Horus Heresy, at the same time as the Ordo Malleus was officiated in the Inquisition (I believe). However, newer fluff states that after Horus mortally wounded the Emperor and the Emperor was placed upon the Golden Throne, he ordered the Grey Knights to be founded from lone Astartes who already had experience with the Daemonic Legions of Chaos. Also, I believe he authorised Curze's assassination at this time, but bleh, I dunno.

Grey Knights are indeed superior to 'regular' Chapter Astartes. However, they are even more refined 'shock troops' specialising at purging Daemonic threats. All Grey Knights are psykers to some extent. Grey Knights are essentially M30 onwards, unlike Astartes who can trace their lineage back to the Unification of Terra, M29.

The Adeptus Custodes are like 'cousins' to Space Marines. They are vat-grown, require longer to create and train and are fewer in number. I believe that they are generally stronger, faster and more intuitive than regular Astartes but are alot more specialised in terms of their role. Custodes are trained in the Assassin's temples so are used as guardians or assassins, not 'Angels of Death' stormtroopers like ordinary Marines.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Actually the Garro Audio Books of the Horus Heresy series kind of revolves around what is to be the Inquisition. While the Inquisition and the Gray Knights were more or less officially born after the end of the HH, the seeds of both groups were sown during the Heresy. I doubt we'll ever see the official birth of either organization but we have already seen the groundwork for these organizations laid down and we will probably see more in coming novels and audio books.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Akatsuki13 said:


> Yet despite all those mentions of them in the HH series we haven't actually learned anything new beyond that Russ and Wolves may have been ordered to remove one or both of them. Everything else has been just more of the same. Also there's never been anything in the old fluff to suggest that the Primarchs didn't know what happened to their missing brothers. And if they were going to tell their tale, why is it that every time they are brought up it is quickly quashed. If they were going to reveal them why not use those moments to drop real hints about them rather just 'they're gone so don't talk about them'. Secondly, why write novel(s) about them when we already know that they and their Legions are gone before Horus was appointed Warmaster?
> 
> Again it's a matter leaving enough creative space for fans and players to create their own. They know that as much as the fans love the fluff and stories they and the Black Library come up with, fans also what to be able create their own. That's why there are tons and tons of SM Chapters and CSM warbands that are nothing more than paint schemes. Because fans want to create their own warbands, Chapters and Legions as well as tell stories of their accomplishments. They won't create the missing Primarchs simply because it would rob us fans of the ability to create our own Primarchs and Legions and fit them into the vast mythos of 40K.


I think lore is catching up with general Space Marine gamers. This is merely my own opinion but I don't think many use the loop hole the lost Primarchs give for the background of their chapter, in my opinion most tend to relate them to a known Primarch or simply say it's unknown, which is good enough.

To me this means the whole original argument behind why there's two unknown Primarchs is extinct. 

As to them not coming out and giving a massive hint, there's plenty of good hints, BL and GW know how much people want to know about the lost Primarchs so they are dragging it out, which is for the best.


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

And what hints would that be exactly? I mean I've read nearly all of the HH novels and I haven't seen it. Again said from the notion that Russ and Space Wolves were the ones to finish off the two Legions, there hasn't been anything new about them that they've hinted. I suppose the fact that they've mentioned them several times through out the series could lead some believe that they are going to feature them in an upcoming novels but really it doesn't quite work if you think about it. First off the series is about the Horus Heresy and every novel is tied to that but the losses of the 2nd and 11th Legions were described as separate tragedies and though Dorn did ponder if they were a warning sign of things to come. But he never specifically says they fell to Chaos and I always felt that he was referring to the failing of the Primarchs rather than falling to Chaos. And I really don't see how they and what happened to them could be connect to the HH in any meaningful way as they were gone before the events of _The First Heretic_ the first novel chronologically in the series. Second how would novels about them figure into the overarching story of the Heresy when they're gone before the Heresy truly begins with the fall of the Word Bearers? Thus far they've no real impact on the story on the Heresy and have only been mentioned in passing by the Primarchs briefly.

I just don't see why they would go back to a point before the earliest moment of the Heresy for an entire novel. Even if they were the first to fall to Chaos, it appears that the other Primarchs are completely obvious to that given ignorant they were of Chaos.

I don't know. Why don't you explain to me how you see them being brought into the series in a way that would play a meaningful role in the HH.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

In regards to the Lost Primarchs, I am confident in saying that BL will never truly reveal what happened to them (they don't even know themselves). The whole point of Primarchs II and XI were to be the lost and the missing. Mysterious anomalies that everyone is forbidden to even speak of. The only reason they are appealing is because we don't know what happened to them. If it is revealed what truly happened, they would simply just become _another_ Primarch and would lose all their intrigue.

People have just got to accept that this is a mystery that will most likely never see the light of day, and remain all the better for it.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Akatsuki13 said:


> I don't know. Why don't you explain to me how you see them being brought into the series in a way that would play a meaningful role in the HH.


I don't, it was you who said you wanted them to just come out and say what happened to them, or at least give us bigger hints. All I'm saying is they are dropping minor hints to further the interest in them, they might not include anything else in the Heresy series for all I know. I never stated they'd write a whole Horus Heresy novel on them, so I don't know where you're coming from with that.

Which each new book we're finding more and more about every primarch, including the lost ones. Even in the Battle of the Fang...(Spoiler below)



We find out that Magnus knows where Leman Russ is


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## Cowlicker16 (Dec 7, 2010)

I do not see how bringing in the 2 Primarchs could destroy the chance of making your own army, Guilliman already gave us that by making so many chapters you can make your own and call it a new chapter, it would just be an intersting story and would finally answer a lot of questions.

And some clarification for me...did the scouring start as soon as Horus was killed or what cuase I would think of it as a subset of the Heresy cause they are still fighting against the heretics it's just they have the upper hand now. I could see the scouring being in the HH


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

TheSpore said:


> . Hell their are stories inside of stories like what in the time it took the emerpor to walk to the other golden throne to relieve himself.


and then how long it took the ecclesiarchy to collect it all and pass it of as holy rlics from the emps body.....

OT there are somethings that will remain untouched and the missing priomarchs will be one of them unless some bright spark comes up with a really good idea that they cannot resist. 

also there is the rebuilding of the Raven Guard and wat actually happened to make Corax just up and leave saying nevermore...now that one i am really interested in reading....


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

There are two Unknown Legions and Primarchs left. Games Workshop would like to preserve 'creativity' in hobby enthusiasts, whilst Black Library simultaneously would like to add more spice to their Horus Heresy series.

Surely, the obvious thing to do, would be reveal what happened to *one* Legion in satisfactory detail?


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