# If Guilliman died before implementing the Codex Astartes?



## LongfangFenrika93 (Jan 22, 2012)

I always think things like this are really interesting. There are so many things that could have changed the setting. 

Anyway, what would have been the outcome if Guilliman had died on Calth (in orbit) or something like that? The entire Imperium would be different in terms of Space Marine deployment. I really can't see it lasting if had died. 

Guilliman really was the only thing that held the Imperium together, would the other brothers be able to do as good a job? And would the Legions have remained or would someone else break down the Legions?


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

Without Guilliman, as much as it pains me to say it, I honestly can't see the Imperium survivng without Guilliman. At best, it would dissolve into a thousand Ultramars. With each legion defending a portion of space and being essentially independent states, because no one but Guilliman would have been able to break them apart. Terra would likely still be the center of humanity, but the Inquisition would have little power, the GK wouldn't have as much authority over other marines. 

It's also entirely possible that the Imperium would have completely dissolved into a miasma of warring factions all trying to seize control quickly destroyed itself.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I personally think Dorn would have stepped up and tried to manage things.

We probably would have ended up with a more militant Imperium (hard to imagine). Major planets would be bristling fortresses. 

The Legions would probably still be around. I would imagine worlds were be less interdependent and more self-sufficient than they are now.

Too many "what ifs" for me to give a solid answer.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

Actually with Guilliman death Dorn might not be around. I think it was Guilliman and the Ultra marines who helped out the Imperial Fist that was getting slaughter in the trap that the Iron Warriors set up in. Correct me if I am wrong. 

If Guilliman did died . It would fall on Khan , Corax , Russ , or Vulkan to step up to plate. The Lion was knocked out from his battle with Luther. 

It's hard to say what will happened but I think without Guilliman the Imperium would of fall post heresy. Most likely small independent states would of formed. What ever legion that was around would still try to fight to keep it together and most likely would end up protecting there location. 

It's hard to say which direction it would of gone.


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

Too toooo many what if's to even consider answering this..basically re-writes a lot of current 40k.


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

As Mordin would say, "too many variables".

Still, if we (continuing with Mordin) ignore the "little pictures" and look at the "big picture", I could see Dorn taking over and trying to hold things together. He seems more traditionalist to me though (hence his opposition to the breaking down of the Legions) and I think the Imperium would have survived for a time, but slowly outer fringes would be lost and the Imperium would not be a strong. I don't think it'd die altogether, though.

What happened to Dorn anyway?


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Farseer Darvaleth said:


> What happened to Dorn anyway?


read it all in the doctors voice agin ffs, still it somehow makes you sound more credible.

As for Dorn, he died,he died fighting on board a Chaos ship, after attacking a Black Crusade fleet with a vastly outnumbered force. Seeing the importance of attacking the enemy fleet while they were still preparing he relied on hit-and-run attacks until his reinforcements could arrive. Dorn died on board the Despoiler Class Battleship Sword of Sacrilege after leading a desperate attack on its bridge. His remains were recovered and his engraved skeletal hand is kept in stasis by his chapter.

however since the index states that the eldar (craftworld Ulthwe) stopped any reinforcements from aiding him in his time of need, i suspect something went on behind the scenes, and since the ratio of traitor:Loyalist primarchs is already heavily lopsided i assume that the fluff will be changed and good old Dorn will be back and in fighting condition in no time, this however represents a bit of a conundrum for me as my 2 favorite primarchs are Dorn and Perturabo.


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## Apostle (Jun 29, 2012)

Hopefully the Imperium would survive and we would have a lot less Ultramarines in our lives. Just my two cents on that.


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## Anfo (Jul 17, 2009)

If Guilliman died, the real question should be, "Who are the 40K poster boys?" The codex wouldn't be around so the Ultrasmurfs couldn't be the best.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

I personally see it falling upon Dorn or The Lion. If Guilliman had died on Calth then Dorn and El'Jonson might not have made their decisions to travel to the Iron Cage and Caliban respectively -- or at least not in the same manner or at the same time they did.

Likely the Lion, if he took command, would have sent some of his legionnaires to Caliban -- found it riddled with Chaos and may have just left it to Dorn to crack open and take apart. The Lion had that kind of detachment from things. Or he my have charged in like he did and died.

In my honest opinion -- I see Dorn taking command of the Imperium and installing The Lion as the new "Warmaster". Therefore the Legions may have still been broken down to some extent, considering the Lion's past with the "Orders" of Caliban. Though its just as likely that Dorn's influence would have prevented this and the Legions would have remained.

Out of the remaining Primarchs -- Khan, Corax, Vulkan, Russ, Dorn, and Lion I think its more than likely the Imperium would have been divided into six different segmentums (similar to the ones of today with Ultima being smaller). The legions assigned to these areas would be the ones who defended them. Of coarse, over time, the Primarchs would die/vanish randomly for no apparent reason -- and then we'd just have big-ass chapters.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

I think you hit the nail on the head:goodpost:


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

Remember, if Guilliman died, nobody saves Dorn from the Iron Cage, so he dies relatively early too.

I'd say the most likely result is that Leman Russ takes over the Imperium, gets drunk, accidentally trips on the power cord for the Golden Throne, and the Astronomicon goes out.




Lost&Damned said:


> and since the ratio of traitor:Loyalist primarchs is already heavily lopsided i assume that the fluff will be changed and good old Dorn will be back and in fighting condition in no time,


Probably not.  The primarch ratio has been lopsided for twenty years. And honestly, most of the Chaos primarchs don't do anything these days anyway (Perturabo, Lorgar, Magnus, Mortarion). 

I'm kinda hoping they do something fun and radical with the Horus Heresy novels and kill off some of the "less important" primarchs who aren't crucial to the post-heresy fluff. Some epic face-offs could be in the making. Imagine Guilliman getting his revenge on Lorgar. Or an epic confrontation on Terra between Russ and Mortarion. There are a lot of expendable primarchs. Only a handful of them are necessary for the greater plotline and do anything after the Heresy ends.


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## Apostle (Jun 29, 2012)

Veteran Sergeant said:


> Remember, if Guilliman died, nobody saves Dorn from the Iron Cage, so he dies relatively early too.
> 
> I'd say the most likely result is that Leman Russ takes over the Imperium, gets drunk, accidentally trips on the power cord for the Golden Throne, and the Astronomicon goes out.
> 
> ...


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Khan and russ are both kings on their homeworlds. Either one of them could easily rule the imperium.


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

If Guilliman died before he could save Dorn from the Iron Cage incident, then it is possible that the legions would still have been broken up. My limited understanding of it is that three primarchs supported breaking legions and three primarchs opposed it, Guilliman heading one and Dorn heading the other. With both of them gone, I like to hope that Khan could have broken up the remaining legions into chapters, I mean it would be different to the way Guilliman had done it but it would have been similar in effect. 

And what would tip the battle in Khan's favour is that, there are still many thousands of ultramarines, they would have lobbied their support for Khan and seeing as they are the most intact legion left after that whole Heresy thing, I think that would have tipped the balance. Just so long as Khan didn't go off charging into the webway before it all got finalized.


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## Arlex (Jul 2, 2012)

Wasn't Dorn SUPPOSED to step up and rule, but since he was shattered by failing the Emperor (he didn't, lets be honest but the poor bastard thought he did.) And so Guilliman stepped up and took command. 

So, without Guilliman I wonder if the Imperium would simply have fallen apart. Other then the Ultramarines, not a single chapter had the sheer manpower to hold it all together and even they were stretched thin and Guilliman was everywhere at this time as well. 

A) Could anyone else control ANOTHER primarch's legion as masterfully as Guilliman did here. (Because they'd have to use the manpower of the Ultramarines or they couldn't do it. Period.) 
B) Would the Ultramarines fight as hard as they did for another primarch, or with the death of their primarch weighing so heavily on them. 
C) Would the Ultramarines even take orders from another Primarch considering the mistrust following the Heresy?


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

Arlex said:


> Wasn't Dorn SUPPOSED to step up and rule, but since he was shattered by failing the Emperor (he didn't, lets be honest but the poor bastard thought he did.) And so Guilliman stepped up and took command.


I don't think I've ever seen that suggested in the fluff. I'm curious where you got that idea from.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I don't think Dorn would of died, he either wouldn't of done it, or would of survived the battle, Dorn made it all the way to the centre of the Iron Warriors Cage and Perturabo was to scared to face him. He would of had more Marines with him as well, since the legions had already been divided up into chapters at this stage when Guilliman was alive, as stated in the IA article.

Anyway, a more militant Imperium would of been a fundamentally better Imperium than what it is now.


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## Sem'ael Elear (Nov 6, 2011)

I'd like to think that if Gulliman had died then Johnson would have hauled ass to help the Emperor. He wouldn't have gone back to Caliban, like an above post stated I could see him sending some men to check it out and then I could see him bombing the planet as he went and saved the day. He would be a suitable replacement for the roll Gulliman took, being the greatest tactical mind of all of the primarchs. I'm sure that he'd have taken advice from Dorn if he was still alive and in the end they would build a balanced imperium, surgical offence meets impenetrable defence. That's just my thought though


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I'd really love to see more relations between all the Primarchs, to get a good look at how respected or disliked they where altogether before the heresy started off.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Are you letting your Imperial Fists bias creep in again _Words_? :wink:



Words_of_Truth said:


> I don't think Dorn would of died, he either wouldn't of done it


Wouldn't have engaged the Iron Warriors? I am fairly sure he would have done, after all, he didn't go into the Iron Cage incident anticipating Guilliman would need to rescue him, I believe he "publicly declared that the Imperial Fists would dig Perturabo out of his hole and bring him back to Terra in an Iron Cage."

Take into account that "Roboute Guilliman pleaded with Dorn to let him help but just as Perturabo planned, Dorn was arrogant enough to undertake the mission alone. Rogal Dorn expected honourable battle but that was not Perturabo's agenda at all. The Eternal Fortress was a sophisticated trap..."

So, I think it is fairly safe to say that Dorn would have engaged Perturabo regardless of whether Guilliman was alive or not.



Words_of_Truth said:


> or would of survived the battle


Again, fairly sure that wouldn't have happened. In this respect, the Imperial Fist's IA article states:



> ...Ammunition expended, Brothers fought in half-flooded trenches with combat knives, giving and expecting no quarter. Eventually it became apparent that the Iron Warriors could not finish them. For all their skill and ferocity, the Iron Warriors lacked the faith to make the ultimate sacrifice that victory demanded. *While they paused, the Ultramarines intervened; Guilliman had decided that Perturabo's destruction was not worth the loss of Rogal Dorn* and had brought his Chapter to drive off the Iron Warriors.


Whilst the Iron Warriors' states:



> The Imperial Fists had burrowed into the killing zone and were unable to escape. Although his captains called for a breakout, Rogal Dorn would not give the order. He refused to believe the evidence of his eyes and continued to call for one last charge or for Perturabo to face him. Unable to abandon their Primarch, the Imperial Fists prepared to die with him.
> 
> If Perturabo had a failing it was that he had grown to enjoy tormenting his enemies too much. *He could have finished off the Imperial Fists at any time but chose not to. Fortunately for Rogal Dorn, Roboute Guilliman put the Imperium before pride and had brought the Ultramarines to the rescue.*


What both seem to agree on, is that Dorn would have been killed. Note the bits in bold.



Words_of_Truth said:


> Dorn made it all the way to the centre of the Iron Warriors Cage and Perturabo was to scared to face him.


Perturabo was not scared to face him, not even the Fist's IA article claims that. 

The information we have is:



> ...Still Perturabo remained patient, he allowed Dorn to rampage around the trenches calling his name and demanding personal combat, content that the sight of their Primarch's impotence would demoralise the Imperial Fists. The siege of the Eternal Fortress was to last for three more weeks. The Imperial Fists had burrowed into the killing zone and were unable to escape...


And that was the whole point of the trap engineered by Perturabo, it wasn't to resolve his dispute with Dorn in personal combat, it was to gain revenge. Looking at what Perturabo achieved - he crippled the Imperial Fists, demoralised Dorn to the point that after the siege he is described as "a broken man", and gained ascension to daemonhood - as the IA article states, "one insult had been avenged."



Words_of_Truth said:


> He would of had more Marines with him as well, since the legions had already been divided up into chapters at this stage when Guilliman was alive, as stated in the IA article.


I don't think he would have had more Astartes at his disposal. He led the "die-hards" (who were unwilling to form a new chapter) of his Legion into the Iron Cage, whilst the Crimson Fists and Black Templars (and whichever others) were simultaneously formed - they were certainly formed by the time of the aftermath of the Iron Cage because they were the ones who picked up the slack of the Imperial Fist's war effort after the Iron Cage rendered them unable to make war for nineteen years.

Nothing was stopping Dorn also leading the others of his Legion (Crimson Fists, Black Templars, Soul Drinkers - if indeed they had been formed by that point) into the Iron Cage. Perhaps apart from him using the Iron Cage as a metaphorical pain glove after the Scouring/Codex Astartes crisis.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Maybe but those views are from first person perspectives, not a omnipresent perspective imo. This is all mostly hypothetical based on whether Guilliman survived or not. I think the fact Guilliman took charge kind of robbed Dorn of his "Do his duty" aspect and allowed him to slip into despair, which in turn made him angst ridden and in the end made him think he needed to go through with the Iron Cage to cleanse himself. If Guilliman hadn't survived or poked his nose in, I think Dorn's duty aspect would of stayed and he'd of done his utmost to protect what the Emperor created.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> This is all mostly hypothetical based on whether Guilliman survived or not.


I know, I covered that in my above post. 



Words_of_Truth said:


> I think the fact Guilliman took charge kind of robbed Dorn of his "Do his duty" aspect and allowed him to slip into despair, which in turn made him angst ridden and in the end made him think he needed to go through with the Iron Cage to cleanse himself. If Guilliman hadn't survived or poked his nose in, I think Dorn's duty aspect would of stayed and he'd of done his utmost to protect what the Emperor created.


I don't think there is much basis to suggest that:



> It fell to Dorn to discover the bodies of the Emperor, Horus and Sanguinius after the final drama had run its course. *His grief was immense. Until that point Dorn had been true, noble and enduring, but now he became an avenging son*... the Imperial Fists hunted down the traitors, levelling fortress after fortress. Dorn led them, dressed in the black of mourning, his customary mercy set aside until the guilty were punished. While others shaped the new Imperium, *Dorn immersed himself in implacable justice*. It was rumoured that he saw the Emperor's death as his personal failure and his crusade as penance. After all, were the Traitors not his brothers? Whatever the cause, Rogal Dorn was absent from the highest councils until he was summoned back to Terra...


After Guilliman issued the Codex Astartes:



> *Dorn was shaken, his quest for redemption had blinded him to changing times.* He could not see why humanity would not trust the Imperial Fists because of what the Traitor Legions had done. Without the fire of battle to engage them, Rogal Dorn and the Imperial Fists hovered on the brink - the Emperor was gone and now it seemed that their very brotherhood was to be sundered.


If Guilliman had fallen at Calth, the Council of Terra would have still been the ultimate Imperial authority (bar the Emperor) post-Heresy, and would still have set about reordering the Imperium, with or without Dorn. Given the above quotes from the Index Astartes - which don't even directly mention Guilliman - I think it is safe to say that Dorn would have reacted to the Emperor's death (if Guilliman had died) in the same manner to how he actually did.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Hmm well, the Excoriators go through the grief felt by Dorn at the time he found the Emperor's body and they can over come it. I'm not saying Dorn wouldn't of lost any of his grief, just that if he'd been given the responsibility of shepherding the Imperium instead of being let loose to dwell on the grief and hatred he had, then he may of been a lot more level headed and less likely to go through what he did.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Out of all the Primarchs, only 4 could ever conceivably become Warmaster Horus, Dorn, Sanguinius and Guilliman.

And so on that basis and the fact that everyone expect Dorn is dead or incapacitated, the only one left with the ability to rule an interstellar empire is Dorn, there are no other alternatives (in hindsight maybe the Khan too, however since we know fuck all about him there is no point including him).

But, i fear since, as COTE said, he would have died in the iron cage, or if not died in his crusade of penitence, he quite clearly was emotionally unstable, far too headstrong and draconian, he is psychologically defeated.

And so in conclusion, an imperium bereft of Guilliman's guidance is fucked. /thread


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