# Chaos Cultist just a fad?



## Starship Trooper

I'm new to Chaos (Codex should be hear on Monday!) and I cant help but notice that all the lists I see have Cultist as troop choices instead of CSM's? Just the hot new thing or is there a solid reason?

Would love for some Chaos players to compare and contrast the two units.

Thanks!


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## Tim/Steve

They're cheap and allow you to spend more points on the shiny new options that people want to have a crack at... I'm sure that it'll settle down and we'll have cult marines in themed list or the standard CSM back with mebbe a cheap cultist unit to hold objective.
...
...
... but time will tell.


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## MidnightSun

My regular gaming partner's running mainly Marked, Icon-ed CSM as Troops with a degree of success (Fearless Nurgle CSM make Guardsmen sad  ). I think Cultists are being used because they're new and omgawesome and Space Wolves and Imperial Guard had cheap troops and are wtfpwn so any army with cheap troops is omg op. At least, I think that's the internet theory. The practical theory is that people stop relying on Cultists when they realise that 40 Cultists is two turn's shooting away from leaving you with no way to actually win the mission short of tabling.

Midnight


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## Iron_Freak220

I'm not a fan of the cultists personally. But I've never been a fan of anything less than T4 and not wearing power armor. I prefer a more elite and resilient army to a horde. It generally requires more strategy to win.

The cultists have really nothing special about them. They are cannon fodder and that's all. You can try to use them as cheap objective holders until you realize how easy they run. They have no special morale tricks and a terrible leadership so it won't take much to dislodge them. You can spend the points on a Dark Apostle to join them, but then you've wasted the points on the Dark Apostle because he's also terrible. You could put a lord in there but then you're wasting the Lord's potential. 

Some like the Plague Zombie idea but these are even worse. They are Slow and Purposeful which means it takes literally 6 full turns to cross the board starting from 12''. That's terrible tactical mobility. Even the normal have no transport options so are not particularly mobile.

They are terrible in close combat and terrible at range. The only effective way to use cultists in my opinion is to horde them by running at least 90. But at that point you're playing a horde army which is not one I'm a fan of not to mention the insane amount of money you'd have to fork out to get them all.


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## MidnightSun

Agree with Iron Freak completely - you need to mass them in even greater numbers than, say, Imperial Guardsmen. The issue with that strategy, as a horde army, is that they have no real support for a horde strategy - Tyranids can run Tervigons to make their Termagants really quite nasty with Str 4 Poisoned 4+ on the charge, as well as replacing casualties or swelling the starting number of Gaunts. Imperial Guard have Orders to give them benefits, cheap Heavy Weapons, Commissars to stop them running away, and various support weapons that synergize well with a horde. Orks have Mob Rule that practically forces them into playing large units, assault-orientated vehicles with large transport capacities (Battlewagons with Deffrollas, damn yes), and their unit leaders are very strong for their points and durability.

Chaos do have some excellent support units (Heldrakes, Havocs, Obliterators) and unique rules (Mark of Khorne to add even more attacks, Mark of Nurgle for a decent Toughness boost), but nothing that helps them play as a horde in general - they have Cultists, and Marked Cultists. That's about it, as far as options go, and it's very predictable and very easy to counter - 90 Cultists takes up a significant swathe of board, and with Barrage weapons improved in 6th, you can see where that leads.

Also, suicidal Cultist champions are silly, so when you get into combat your leadership bonus disappears because your T3 Character challenged Mephiston or Draigo.

Midnight


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## Iron_Freak220

Midnight took the words right out of my mouth. The CSM dex is already desperately lacking synergy and trying to work a horde army in is just not the best strategy. The one unit that was apparently created just to lead cultists (Dark Apostle) doesn't do anything for them besides add Fearless, although a number of other units can do that for the cultists.

They don't have the staying power or damage output to be decent in melee. I've seen a number of reports where 4-5 marines have wiped out entire squads of cultists. They don't have the special ranged weapons of the Imperial Guard. They've got heavy stubbers. Woooo.

If you want to add some shooty horde to your CSM army ally with Guard. At least the basic units have access to the powerful Orders as well as heavy weapons. If you want close combat horde then add Orks for obvious reasons.


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## MidnightSun

I think having a Biomancy Sorceror leading a Mark of Nurgle horde is the best option, and even then it's expensive (for a Level 2/3 Sorceror and MoN on lots of Cultists), unreliable (you need Enfeeble and/or Endurance, but none of the other powers help you at all) and still kinda bad (you turn into Orks without Furious Charge, with fewer attacks, no Mob Rule, Autoguns instead of Shootas, WS/BS/I3 and no Power Klaw).

CSM core with allies looks to be the best option.

Midnight


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## Mossy Toes

But hey, the models make excellent Traitor Guard.




...yeah, they're crap. I've played a few games with them and even when they've hidden behind an Aegis Defense Line on an objective and gone to ground whenever shot at, they just got flamered off the map or wiped out by 5 charging Marines.


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## LukeValantine

They have one use and that is as a giant 30 wound escort of a dedicated close combat lord. To my knowledge the unit will count as fearless as long as he is around, and as they are fearless the unit will be able to sit on objectives forever. Also the champ can take the forced challenge so you don't get stuck with your lord wasting all his attacks on a fearless units sargent.

Other then this they have almost no place in most CSM builds.


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## Necrosis

I just take allied guard instead of cultists.


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## Malisteen

I take them mainly for aesthetics - I like a mix of daemons, marines, and lesser human rebels, and since you can only take one ally at a time, cultists let me do that. Plus the DV models look nice.

They've done well enough for me, going to ground behind ADLs or in cover to hold objectives. They do get wiped out if people melee them, but with a couple flamers it will generally take more than five marines to get the job done. And they're hella cheap, letting me spend some points on fun stuff, whether it be specialist units, allied daemons, or just upgrades for the CSM squads in my other troop slots, while still maintaining a respectable model count.


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## KahRyez

I like taking them for fluff reasons, insurgents fighting alongside marine masters and their daemon engines. They may drop like flies, but that is their lot in life right? The horde style tactics along with heavy walkers is a departure from my usual methods with the necrons of 'shot them again, they ain't dead yet' >.> (honestly I have no idea why my friends detest me playing them.....)

I think they have a place in certain lists, but thankfully can be dropped if you truly don't wish to use them, as the standard CSMs can still be used to their full potential. I think of them as chaos grots >.> with armor saves....kinda.


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## Archaon18

They are guard with a worse armour save, no orders, much more limited support options, and a point more for the equivelent weapons. The only boon (no pun intended) is it you champion miraculously wins a challenge, then rolls 65-66, but that will NEVER happen.


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## LukeValantine

Well they are really cheap, which mean its incredibly easy to get the second FOC.


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## Archon Dan

It's the fact they are stupid cheap that makes them so popular. 150 points for 35. I like LukeValentine's slant. They are a cheap way to open Double FOC. It means more access to the newer toys. The 3 Chaos players I regularly fight really like them for now but they all take a mix of them and Marines. If you build the list right, Cultists can hold rear objectives while the tougher guys surge forward. And for armies with poor horde control, they are a nightmare. One of my friends has also pointed out that if Fearless, 35 will tarpit a Trygon the whole game, assuming no other units can aid the Trygon. There's even a very slim chance of them killing it. They probably won't win against most enemies but can buy time. And that is certainly fluffy.


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## Sethis

I take 120 Zombies backed with 15 Spawn, 3 Maulerfiends and Typhus + Sorc.

Good luck killing that. The best so far I think was an IG player who had a squadron of Russes, a Valk with Missile Pods and a Manticore. He killed 60 of them. :victory:


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## falcoso

How do you take 120 zombies when you are only allowed one unit?

I don't see the point in cultists apart from aesthetic/fluff reasons, and they probably aren't going to be seen in many competitive lists, they die far too easily and run away too. The only useful reason I can see in using them is having a maxed out squad (40? I think) and giving them mark of khorne, 4 attacks each on the charge is farily good and will work well against T3 armies and maybe against some T4 e.g just hold up a squad of boyz. 

But takig a guard allies is a much more tactical option, granted the only way to bless them would be taking a psyker battle squad and they can't take marks, but they have orders, a 5+ armour (ok against most weapons you still aren't getting a save but its better than 6), it also gives you access to some great vehicles and dedicated anit-air (ok yes there is the heldrake and flakk missile but as I saw in a game yesterday a storm talon was disintergrated the first the chance the guard had the chance to shoot at it), and orders and vox casters means that you can at least survive that leadership test.

I may have gotten some of the guard things wrong as I don't actualy play them, and I think its penal legion that is a good CC? They may even be better than Khorne Cultists. So yes cultists are just a craze and I will probably only ever use them as a points filler, or for a 'lolz' game.


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## Adramalech

falcoso said:


> How do you take 120 zombies when you are only allowed one unit?
> 
> I don't see the point in cultists apart from aesthetic/fluff reasons, and they probably aren't going to be seen in many competitive lists, they die far too easily and run away too. The only useful reason I can see in using them is having a maxed out squad (40? I think) and giving them mark of khorne, 4 attacks each on the charge is farily good and will work well against T3 armies and maybe against some T4 e.g just hold up a squad of boyz.
> 
> But takig a guard allies is a much more tactical option, granted the only way to bless them would be taking a psyker battle squad and they can't take marks, but they have orders, a 5+ armour (ok against most weapons you still aren't getting a save but its better than 6), it also gives you access to some great vehicles and dedicated anit-air (ok yes there is the heldrake and flakk missile but as I saw in a game yesterday a storm talon was disintergrated the first the chance the guard had the chance to shoot at it), and orders and vox casters means that you can at least survive that leadership test.
> 
> I may have gotten some of the guard things wrong as I don't actualy play them, and I think its penal legion that is a good CC? They may even be better than Khorne Cultists. So yes cultists are just a craze and I will probably only ever use them as a points filler, or for a 'lolz' game.


EDITED AGAIN FOR CLARITY: Codex: Chaos Space Marines, 6th edition, Page 61, Plague Zombies: "Any Chaos Cultists units (see the army list, page 95) in the same army as Typhus can be nominated as Plague Zombies."

Which means not only can you have up to six units of zombies in your primary detachment, but they don't have be in the same detachment as Typhus, either. Which, of course, means that in a 2,100+ point game, you could potentially have 420 plague zombies.


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## Iron_Freak220

If you've spent the money and time to get 420 plague zombies to the table, I'll just go ahead and give you the win.


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## MidnightSun

falcoso said:


> But takig a guard allies is a much more tactical option, granted the only way to bless them would be taking a psyker battle squad and they can't take marks, but they have orders, a 5+ armour (ok against most weapons you still aren't getting a save but its better than 6), it also gives you access to some great vehicles and dedicated anit-air (ok yes there is the heldrake and flakk missile but as I saw in a game yesterday a storm talon was disintergrated the first the chance the guard had the chance to shoot at it), and orders and vox casters means that you can at least survive that leadership test.


Psyker Battle Squads, whilst a fantastic tool in their own right, don't have any Blessings. Primaris Psykers, though, can either put Nightshroud on a Combined Squad (kinda sucks) or hope to luck out on Biomancy. Just so you know.

Taking Cultists and putting the Slaanesh discipline buff (Ecstatic Seizures?) on them could be decently viable, being reasonably cheap and potentially worrying for non-combat units, but suffers from unreliability to a high degree (rolling that power, casting it, psychic defences if applicable, rolling the buff you need, and then having to charge random distance with no Fleet).

Midnight


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## falcoso

Adramalech said:


> EDITED AGAIN FOR CLARITY: Codex: Chaos Space Marines, 6th edition, Page 61, Plague Zombies: "Any Chaos Cultists units (see the army list, page 95) in the same army as Typhus can be nominated as Plague Zombies."


Sorry, I've only had the chance to look at my friends and hadn't fully looked at the rules, so the by all means take a zombie horde, and I will shake your hand for willingly foot slogging a unit that can only move 6" a turn with no range weapons.

Oh who am I kidding I would be crapping myself if I was fighting a maxed out zombie horde.



MidnightSun said:


> Psyker Battle Squads, whilst a fantastic tool in their own right, don't have any Blessings. Primaris Psykers, though, can either put Nightshroud on a Combined Squad (kinda sucks) or hope to luck out on Biomancy. Just so you know.
> 
> Taking Cultists and putting the Slaanesh discipline buff (Ecstatic Seizures?) on them could be decently viable, being reasonably cheap and potentially worrying for non-combat units, but suffers from unreliability to a high degree (rolling that power, casting it, psychic defences if applicable, rolling the buff you need, and then having to charge random distance with no Fleet).
> 
> Midnight


Sorry meant to clarify when I spoke about blessings I meant the ones in the new disciplines.

And I think you mean hysterical frenzy, ecstatic seizures is a witchfire. But yes I see where you are coming from, especially if given the mark of slaanesh in the first place, as then you are either going to be getting more attacks then a standard marine, just as strong, or striking before them, and against something like crons which survive in CC by holding out until their CC you are going to knocking them around with your 2-4 attacks at potentially S4 (depending on whether you charge or get +1 attack or strength) and they are probably only going to kill a cultist or two (in a average 10 man squad), same with things like Tau too who die even worse than crons in CC


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