# full command or no?



## pantsmessiah (Aug 16, 2009)

I'm very new to WHFB and only have a minor grasp of the rules/tactics but looking at other lists I don't see a lot of people using full command.

For example with the units I have so far I have 2 units of marauder horsemen and 2 units of chaos knights.

I was looking at having a full command but is that generally considered a waste of points? It seems like having a standard and musician would be helpful since they assist in combat resolution. The only thing I could see leaving out would be the champion since it's basically just paying 20 points for an extra attack.


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## Yilmar (Sep 12, 2009)

Generally this is what people think about commands:

Musician are a must in any unit!

Standard bearers are more for units that will be in CC numerous times or for a longer period.
This means any unit except for fast cavalry and shooting units.

Champions are really there to boost up an already kick-ass unit or to accept challenges for heroes.

That's it in a nutshell!


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

I play WoC myself and only my Warrior units have champs. My knights are always joined with the 2 mounted characters I have so a champ is pointless there and you will never see me pay the points for anything beyond a musician in a Marauder unit. Warrior blocks on the other hand are nice to have a champ in (provided you don't have a foot slogger character) as they can challenge enemy heroes to prevent the massive amounts of damage they can do to your block for a turn or two.

Champs in general are a very middle of the road choice to make. They are both good and bad for their points.


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Musicians are a must for most units, it's usually a pretty cheap upgrade, and gives them a bonus in combat and when rallying. Standards - I like them, and take them on all my knights units, but they are a liability on weak units, as they give your opponent extra points for capturing standards. Take them on sturdy and important units, leave them off for the rest.

Champions - something bretonnians get free, so I can't say much about them 
Gamewise, they're great in units where you want to protect another character, like your general, from being suckered into a challenge. without a champion to accept challenges for the character, he has to accept them, or usually get sent to the back and not fight at all - which is annoying when you just want him to attack the normal guys. They can also challenge some more powerful characters, stopping big-bads from ripping into your rank and file guys.

So, basically, they're good in units with characters, they're good on your sturdy mainstay units, but they're not usually worth it on any other units.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

maddermax said:


> ...Champions [are] ...good in units with characters, they're good on your sturdy mainstay units, but they're not usually worth it on any other units....


If your are including a Warshrine anyway, then champions on your other units could be worth it.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Champions- protect vulnerable characters from challenges, strike back when the rest of the front rank is killed ... ok but personally I wouldnt use them unless you have a very combat weak mage in a unit or have a very powerful unit , especially if its easy to kill (ie its likely the front rank will die but the champ is going to do some damage in return), there is no point having champions in weak units (eg spearmen) if there is no character to protect- an extra S3 hit is unlikely to do anything.

Musicians- a must in any unit that might choose to flee (eg if using marauder horsemen to provote charges), cheap and useful so most units should have a musician unless they should never get anywhere near a combat (eg a unit of archers).

Banners- keep them off weak units as they'll just give away victory points if captured. You want banners for your powerful combat units since +1SCR is always nice (makes it easier for you to pass any Ld tests or harder for the enemy to pass their's), there are also lots of nice magical banners floating around for almost every army out there (unless your an ogre :cray


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## Zorenthewise (Aug 7, 2008)

Champions can be very useful in units where you can have multiple/have multiple characters in the unit. Using a champion means that the enemy has to allocate more of their attacks, which is a good thing for you. Also, in a unit such as Dwarf Slayers that can take multiple champions, this can mean an entire front rank of models the enemy has to allocate attacks against.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

The comments re Musicians (cheap enough when the points are available and valuable for breaking ties in CR and in rallying, esp fast cav) and champs (not worthwhile except for when needed to take challenges to protect a weak character in a unit or to take on a strong character to limit the number of kills that character will do to the unit if charged in the first round of cc) are fairly standard. 

Standard Banners (not BSBs) are generally overcosted (too many points for +1 added CR and the risk that they will be captured in units likely to be in cc, destroyed or likely to break and be caught fleeing, as give up the victory points) unless they are in a very large (usually highly resiliant or survivable) unit where SCR is critical in cc or else confer some special benefit to the unit they are in. A standard banner is required for a magic banner, and some magic banners are definitely worth their points. A war banner adds another +1 to CR that can be critical for SCR for mass units. Additionally, there are certain magic banners that are highly recommended for certain units, especially, for example, in WoC and DE. A unit of Chaos Knights of Nurgle with the Banner of Rage is very common and combines the benefits of Nurgle (-1 WS to enemy units for all attempts to hit the unit in cc, -1 BS to enemy units relying on BS for shooting attacks at unit) combined with the benefits of permanent frenzy (+1 Attack per model; no fear, panic or terror checks; plus the banner means that a loss in combat/break does not cause a loss of frenzy). A unit of Black Guards with the Banner of Hag Graef (BoHG confers ASF) is a very common banner used in DE armies for both offensive (guarantees first strike almost always) and defensive reasons (if the infantry unit is charged, it can still strike first, deterring charges and increasing likely CR).


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I would agree with that- if I take a banner it is always for a reason above just +1SCR; for ogre it allows a look out gnoblar to be taken ("look out sir" for only 3 rank and file not 5) so protects against cannons and elsewhere magical banners are very helpful- another standard magic banner placement is the HE banner of sorcery in phoenix guard... a lot of the races have at least 1 banner combo that is very useful.

I would never put a banner on a unit that is likely to see combat, and is equally likely to lose unless that unit needed SCR to have a hope of winning. The problem is that these often overlap- eg clanrats, they are weak enough that beating them in combat really isnt that hard t do unless you get totally mobbed by them (so its likely you can capture any banners) but since they are so weak they tend to rely on that banner to give the SCR they need to not lose so many fights.... balancing these 2 different views is down to the individual person and how they play the game. Personally I think Ive been broken by using ogres for too long, the idea of sacrificing a possible 100VP for +1SCR just doesnt really work for me. Even when playing HE I only take banners with some magical improvement, even if its just a warbanner for my spearmen (if IM going to risk 100VP I might as well double teh bonus that it gives me).


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## Amra_the_lion (May 26, 2008)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't fast cav autorally after a flee? Why the need for a musician?


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

Amra_the_lion said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't fast cav autorally after a flee? Why the need for a musician?


Nope, they have to rally as normal, however when they do they can move (but not charge) and shoot (but always count as moving) as normal.

If they don't rally, they just keep on running. Check out P70 of the BRB.


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

Well as bretts I always take a musician a champ and a standard as it is essential that I break my enemy. The musician and the standard can be the the difference between a unit breaking and me running them down and killing them and me being stuck in combat for round after round.

Put if i take peasantry I dont bother. I would never bother with a full command (champion excepted) unless your sure you want that unit has the ability to take a charge and stand.


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## Tombking (Jan 5, 2010)

my two pence – 

Undead of both desert and crypt dwelling varieties

- Always need a banner, one less casualty.
- Musicians can be usefull as oponants auto flee when they lose to a fear causing hord and combat is touch and go with poor fighters such as skeles etc. 
- Champions I always buy one because they are cool and give you an additional attack for the same number of front facing models, can protect characters and are the first to be resurrected if they die so are quite reliable. 

Living armies are not my forte. But I will always use a full command if points allow as many people think they aren’t worth taking and hate it when I get +1 combat res, win on a draw and get an extra attack. I would only leave them out of non combat units such as archers (unless your talking TK archers, they should have one as they are as good in combat as any skeleton) or if it were in a small unit and it would be cheaper and more effective to get 2+ more models rather than the command.

If your playing WOC, from my experience a champion is a nicety but probably not worth it as a chaos warrior is usually as tough as any two champions you care to name. Dice can go badly and rank bonus being less generally for smaller more expensive units i would always take a banner and musician for your warriors and knights.

sol


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