# Is Overwatch Make or Break?



## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

So I haven't played alot of this edition, mostly due to lack of opponents, and I have one army that I live and breath, and that's my Thousand Sons. While there are some Slaneesh aspects, to keep the army thematic my entire Troop core is based around Rubric marines... and while they can rip things up in the shooting phase with their S&P and their Inferno bolts, they don't get to Overwatch. Alot of people say this is a uge failing, and enough to make Rubrics unplayable. Is this the general consensus?

(note: it's not gonna get me to change my army, but it will be food for thought).


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

It's handy to make people rethink long charges, but it's by no means game breaking not having it.


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

Honestly my ex[eroamce os that overwatch is somewhat overrated. Whilst it does some damage to units charging i've only had one time where it was a game changer and that was weight of numbers more than anything. 

From an overwatcher point of view some armes do it better anyway, tau with all their fancy upgrades and funnily enough orks because of the sheer number of shots they tend to throw out when a mob of even slugger boys gets charged. At the end of the day very few battles will be won by 10 bs1 shots. 
Lets take a standard csm squad, i'm assumign they are armed with plasma overload as that's howi would normally be kitting mine out. So i have a pls pistol, 2 plas guns, 7 bolt guns. I have a 1 in six chance to hit. I'm looking at statistically no more than 2 hits and the chances of one of them being a plasma round is less than 50%.
Can you think of any battle where a single boltgun shot will make much difference? 
Whilst i know your rubric marines will have better ap etc etc you're still only looking at 1 or 2 casualties thanks to the reduced bs. 
Tau do it well because they are able to buff their bs and use nearby squads to bolster firepower, Orks do it well thanks to pure volume of shots and the fact that they really only lose one point to bs. 
I would say rubric marines aren't really any worse off than they used to be. they can still shoot lots of things to buggery and at the end of the day they won't lose much by not being able to overwatch.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

No, it's not enough to make them unplayable. Overwatch only really matters if you have blob guard or ork hordes, where the sheer volume of shots is bound to kill something. In the grande scheme of things it isn't game changing.

I also love my Thousand Sons and have fielded them in a campaign and won-lost ratio was about 60-40. I got slaughtered the first couple of games though, because they are tricky to use until you get used to them.
I ended up putting them in Rhinos, and then disembarking and rapid firing those ap3 boltguns. After a turn, they can then walk around freely, rapid fire, and charge. And this more than makes up for there lack of overwatch.

A lot has been made about them dying easily to small arms fire and thus people have claimed they are very hard to use. I am not sure why though, as it's not exceptionally difficult to keep them away from small arms fire. I keep most things away from rapid fire weapons actually. Who doesn't? It's not that difficult - there is a thing called LOS and cover. 

Also, Ahriman with Telepathy is totally worth it: Invisibility on 1ksons squad is magic. 2+ cover save with 4++. They can then rapid fire ap3 and assault in the same turn, while the enemy is hitting on WS1. It has made most players at my gaming club laugh and cry...


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

Unless mass flamers are involved, I've never really had an issue with overwatch. Your opponent could get lucky, true, but most of the time, overwatch will hit only a few times (depending on squad size) and often enough, the wound is saved.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Yeh, as the others have said may experience too has been that overwatch is "useful" but by no means make or break.

It is great for horde armies that can put out a huge amount of fire and large numbers of flamers are a worry.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

It didn't need adding in. The designers really overestimated the power of an assault but with the addition of AP into an assault (reducing Power Weapon effectiveness based on the appearance of the model for example) among many others, but it is simply one of them things that was "rule of cool'd" in.

As it stands, it simply amplifies the power of shooty armies, and it yet another gimp against CC based lists who do not have the advantage of assault from Transport for the most point.


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## Battman (Nov 2, 2012)

The Sturk said:


> Unless mass flamers are involved, I've never really had an issue with overwatch. Your opponent could get lucky, true, but most of the time, overwatch will hit only a few times (depending on squad size) and often enough, the wound is saved.


Yeh this is the only real game changer in the context of overwatch. With some units that are almost impossible to charge such as 15 burna boys or the old flamers of tzeench which any normal unit (not 30 boys or 50 gaurdsmen) will be the death of the unit


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

In some situations it can be. In a game I played last night with my guard, my PCS got assaulted by swarms of nids and thanks to overwatch, they never made it there. That PCS next turn shot down his tyranid prime, which allowed me to easily mop up his remaining warriors.

In general, I think, only flamers are great for this. Against some squads charging is deadly (as mentioned above), and combined with random charge length it can get very irritating. Make or break? Maybe. Assault vs shooty, very possibly.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Everyone's basically summed it up, but in this particular situation, it doesn't matter for you. Chaos Marines are never going to matter for Overwatch, there's just not enough shots. If you were playing Guard, or Orks, or something, it would be a rather large loss, but one more wound when you already have Power Armor and S4/T4 means very little. Against something tough, it'd probably not die anyways, and against something weak, there'll be so many of them that it isn't enough. Just use your Rubric Marines to tear apart high armor, and you'll be doing more than enough extra damage to make up for the one or two extra wounds you might cause with Overwatch.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Its random like a lot of things this edition. Sure its rarely going to make a difference, but when it does it can seems stupid due to the fact that its automatic. 

For instance I actually won a game because of a single overwatch. The game was tied and in the last turn my enemy charged with his GK HQ and retinue. The unit he was charging into had 2 melta guns. Unfortunately for him my squad managed a single melta hit and wound against his GK librarian, which resulted in one dead librarian and me getting the slay the warlord objective that won me the game. True stuff like this is rare, but it can happen and when it does it has nothing to due with your own skill.


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## iamtheeviltwin (Nov 12, 2012)

LukeValantine said:


> Its random like a lot of things this edition. *Sure its rarely going to make a difference, but when it does it can seems stupid due to the fact that its automatic.
> *
> For instance I actually won a game because of a single overwatch. The game was tied and in the last turn my enemy charged with his GK HQ and retinue. The unit he was charging into had 2 melta guns. Unfortunately for him my squad managed a single melta hit and wound against his GK librarian, which resulted in one dead librarian and me getting the slay the warlord objective that won me the game. True stuff like this is rare, but it can happen and when it does it has nothing to due with your own skill.


This sounds to me like your opponent either forgot about the meltas in the unit and led with a vulnerable model or took a calculated risk to expose his librarian to the rare melta hit. (Did he forgot to look out sir the wound as well?)

Nothing stupid about such a result it all has to do with skill and strategy, it is just another factor you have to take into account when performing a charge. Part of the strategy of the game, a new strategy element for 6ed. It is no different than the strategic choices you make in where to position models to protect from melta shooting in the normal phases.

Not taking into account Overwatch or just assuming it won't matter are just bad tactical choices. Choices that need to be taken into account for everything from charge distance (I have blunted a number of charges by killing the lead model because my opponent didn't move in such a way to get more than one model into optimum charge range) to model positioning (leading with can't lose units is not a good idea if you can avoid it.)


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## d3m01iti0n (Jun 5, 2012)

Overwatch will not stop the Black Tide!!!!!!


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Unless you charge right into a tau gun line or a unit with multiple flame weapons its hardly a game changer. 

Thousand sons make up for it with double tap+charging. It causes more damage than double tap, into overwatch on your opponents turn.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

One of the players at my FLGS once told me this:

If you have something that happens on a 6, plan around it never happening. If your opponent has something that happens on a 6, plan around it always happening.

Meaning before you charge the unit with a Melta, make sure your T4 (or less) Warlord isn't in front.


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## LTKage (May 2, 2012)

Usually no. That said, it can completely change the way a game is going. Two examples:

Charge a mob of orks with Wyches from cover. Wyches have Feel No Pain and Stealth. Completely annihilated which made things difficult for the Incubi and Succubus that subsequently assaulted that unit.

On the other hand, an opponent charged a Raider filled with Warriors with Arjak Rockfist and another Terminator. With re-rolls, the Warriors managed to wipe the entire squad. That's pretty intense.

That said, stuff like that is pretty rare but it can definitely wreck a battle plan.


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

The only time you should be scared of overwatch is if it's...
A guard blob squad
A tau gunline
A flamer spam unit (burna boys)

But overwatch should never be a gamechanger, unless you get lucky/unlucky


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## LTKage (May 2, 2012)

kiro the avenger! said:


> The only time you should be scared of overwatch is if it's...
> A guard blob squad
> A tau gunline
> A flamer spam unit (burna boys)
> ...


Or the person is dependent on the foremost model to get into combat. Good thing Fleet is awesome.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Thousand Sons are bad for several reasons. The inability to Overwatch is the least of them.


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

Xabre said:


> So I haven't played alot of this edition, mostly due to lack of opponents, and I have one army that I live and breath, and that's my Thousand Sons. While there are some Slaneesh aspects, to keep the army thematic my entire Troop core...Alot of people say this is a uge failing, and enough to make Rubrics unplayable. Is this the general consensus?


A Huge failing? I'd probably say not, but it's an element you've voluntarily removed from your list through no fault of your own: S+P is probably the least of your concerns however. I'd say Rubrics aren't unplayable though due to point that they are a shooting-orientated force anyway, but focusing your core around them is going to disadvantage you on the field when it comes to being charged compared to others.



Da Joka said:


> One of the players at my FLGS once told me this:
> 
> If you have something that happens on a 6, plan around it never happening. If your opponent has something that happens on a 6, plan around it always happening.
> 
> Meaning before you charge the unit with a Melta, make sure your T4 (or less) Warlord isn't in front.


The man is a wise man. "Sod's Law" always states that "When it can happen it will happen but not for you". Also 6th edition is the "Lead heroically from somewhere in the middle of everyone" edition.


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

Successful overwatch is simply a matter of ensuring that you pack as many high powered weapons into the squad as possible.

For instance, a guy whose battle reps I keep track of runs MechVet squads with 3 melta guns, 1 plasma pistol sarge, and a lascannon or autocannon. That's such a ridiculous density of firepower that he can afford to miss with most of it and still affect charges.

In the case of CSM, you simply don't have an unit that fulfills the roles of TSons and is able to pack enough firepower to make the difference in overwatch. There are plenty of other reasons that TSons aren't the best, but overwatch isn't a huge deal for them.


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

Nave Senrag said:


> For instance, a guy whose battle reps I keep track of runs MechVet squads with 3 melta guns, 1 plasma pistol sarge, and a lascannon or autocannon. That's such a ridiculous density of firepower that he can afford to miss with most of it and still affect charges.


Even assuming that whicheve shot of this selection is able to auto kill whatever it hits, you're still only averaging a single casualty here. Unless the charger has set it so that his commander is in the front or his front model will be the only one who makes it into charge range it's still not going to deter your average space marine assault squad, ork mob or csm unit, heck the sarge has as much chance of cooking himself with the plasma as he does of hitting the enemy...it's just not enough damage to be considered game changing unless you can spam the numbers you need.


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

Overwatch is really not a game changer, it just makes you think twice about long charges, I ran it though the combat calculator as my bro was getting depressed at the 'unchargable' tau
One sqaud of fire warriors kills 0.887 of a space marine in overwatch! That's not going break a game anytime soon!
And with supporting fire, say you get shot by 3 squads, that's still not even 2.5 guys down, from 3 squads!
If your scared of overwatch, think what they'll do normally and then get scared


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Ravner298 said:


> Thousand sons make up for it with double tap+charging. It causes more damage than double tap, into overwatch on your opponents turn.


Absolutely.

I am actually beginning to think that people that claim Thousand Sons are bad units are either not very good players or are just reading that they are bad online and recycling the monologue without actually even bothering to test it out for themselves. 

Honestly, although I have previously stated that they are difficult to use, they are not _that_ difficult after some practice. So I am beginning to question whether people are actually bothering to playtest for themselves, or are just agreeing with what they read online without bothering to question it. Or it could just be that they are not using the right units to synergise with them. It's a shame because they look great, have the best fluff in 40k and most importantly are fun, especially with Ahriman's telepathy shenanigans... 

Of course, if you are looking for the absolute best of the best units and only care about super-competitive game play and winning tournies (fair play to you if you do), there are probably better units. For everything else there's multi-pass.


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## iamtheeviltwin (Nov 12, 2012)

Straken's_Fist said:


> I am actually beginning to think that people that claim Thousand Sons are bad units are either not very good players or are just reading that they are bad online and recycling the monologue without actually even bothering to test it out for themselves.


I am pretty sure that is the case. I have played against a number of 1k son users in my area and they are a tough unit that doesn't really fear some of the attacks that other MEQ shy away from.

(Trying to shift a 20 man blob of 1k off an objective will take far more firepower than you can afford to waste on the unit)


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

GrimzagGorwazza said:


> Even assuming that whicheve shot of this selection is able to auto kill whatever it hits, you're still only averaging a single casualty here. Unless the charger has set it so that his commander is in the front or his front model will be the only one who makes it into charge range it's still not going to deter your average space marine assault squad, ork mob or csm unit, heck the sarge has as much chance of cooking himself with the plasma as he does of hitting the enemy...it's just not enough damage to be considered game changing unless you can spam the numbers you need.


Overwatch is important for two reasons: doing pre-assault damage to an enemy squad to weaken it for combat and doing pre-assault damage to an enemy squad to deny a charge.

With that many high power shots, you'll average about a kill every overwatch and the value of doing better than average increases much more rapidly than the consequences of doing worse than average.

With random charge distances, charges can be divided into two groups. Important charges, where the assaulting player has moved to close range to mitigate the affects of chance. And Hail Mary charges where the chances of making it aren't good, but the benefits of trying make it an option.

In the case of the first, it is more important to do damage than to deny a charge, but against termies it can deny a charge even at close distances.

In the case of the second, you're likely taking a free shooting round at the enemy unit and if they're lucky with the dice your overwatch might be the difference between base contact and one inch outside of it.

I'm not saying overwatch will ever be gamechanging. All I'm saying is that if you pack enough firepower density into a squad it can be successful in enhancing a unit's combat effectiveness and even preventing the unit from being destroyed in combat.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Nave Senrag said:


> In the case of the first, it is more important to do damage than to deny a charge, but against termies it can deny a charge even at close distances.


Why is that?


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

Wow. I never expected such an intense debate out of all of this. Impressive. It's given me alot to think about. As I said, it wont discourage me from playing my army, as I have way too many black-blue-and-gold painted marines to start over... Can't afford to scrap the army. It's just a tactic I'll need to ponder.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Overwatch can be a pain for some armies and not others. Overwatch use dby a big ork mob with shootas is actually a good deal of firepower. Even 20 shoots boys can dish a heavy number of strength 4 hits. This doesn't tend to hurt much against MEQ, but I have stopped charges by taking out the first couple of marines.


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

Marines and termies don't care much for being overwatched, but hordes could lose quite a few men/aliens/hideous space monsters/bugs


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Personally I think overwatch seems a lot worse then it is due to the change over to random charge lengths, and the way that overwatch is resolved.

I mean getting overwatched even when you don't complete a charge can lead to even a 10 man terminator squads dying without even getting a single swing in. I speak from experience as I have had it happen more then once that I have charged at 6" failed to get in only to get overwatched, then shot, then overwatched again, and don't give me that plan for the eventuality bullshit as you can't realistically build your entire army and tactics around the idea that you will repeatable fail to assault a enemy 5-6" away. Now if overwatch only happened on a successful charge then it wouldn't be nearly as bad, but as it is the two tend to work together in insanely annoying ways.


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## MUTANT (Apr 22, 2013)

*what is overwatch?*

Hi i have been trying to find out waht overwatch does. do you know what it is?


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

MUTANT said:


> Hi i have been trying to find out waht overwatch does. do you know what it is?


Why yes, it is a rule which can be found on page 21 of the 6th edition rulebook.


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## Antonius (Jan 10, 2012)

Overwatch only starts to become really useful and devastating with the divination BS-boosting in overwatch, when combined with a large blob of mans (say DA Libbies/Ezekiel with a 30man IG blob or even just massed low AP such as plasmavets or Combi-Sternguard, or even maybe a farseer with a crapton of guardians). That becomes the equivalent of an extra round of free full BS shooting, and with a high volume of shots (such as guard), that can be devastating to charges (particularly as the casualties are likely to rob momentum from the opponent).

My 2c

In terms of CSM, i agree with previous posters. A few bolter shots are not THAT useful, but sometimes that one off fluke is great, but not to be relied on. And i dont believe that the Tau's supporting fire /Counterfire is that exceptionally important, given that it may only map to one or two extra hits/1 extra model dead.


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Why is that?


Large bases. Termie bases are about two inches in circumference if I recall correctly. Assume two squads are 4-5 inches away and get a six for charge distance. If you get a kill against the termies, then their large base size will prevent some of the termies from getting close enough to fight at worst and will prevent them from charging at best. A marine squad in the same situation will still be able to make the charge because the models will be separated by a much smaller distance.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

iamtheeviltwin said:


> (Trying to shift a 20 man blob of 1k off an objective will take far more firepower than you can afford to waste on the unit)


20 1K Sons is what, 500pts or so? And they'll get scrubbed off the table by many, many combat units that cost far less than that, ranging from 30 Boyz w/ Klaw, through to near-free Termagants, through to 10 Hammernators. Alternatively they'll lose a shooting war to a guard blob sat behind an Aegis 24" away. Hell, I'll plonk 3 Scatter Walkers and a Guideseer opposite them for 250pts and they'll be gone by turn 4.

Not to mention that they aren't mobile, have no anti-tank, and only have S4 weaponry - AP3 or no.

The best use of the Chaos Codex is to pack as many bodies in as efficiently as possible. 1K Sons are simply too expensive and don't do enough to justify their inclusion, especially if you're wasting a HQ slot to make them Troops when you could have a Nurgle or Khorne Lord instead.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

underwatch is a game changer, its when a unit that gets charged whips off there underpants and waves them at the attacker while winking suggestively, on a roll of six the attackers get bummed into the dirt like Theon Greyjoy.


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

I wouldn't say a lack of Overwatch is a good enough reason to drop a unit.

That said my Avatar lost 2 wounds charging a DA Tactical Squad from the rule so it can be bloody good bonus if it goes well.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Digg40k said:


> I wouldn't say a lack of Overwatch is a good enough reason to drop a unit.
> 
> That said my Avatar lost 2 wounds charging a DA Tactical Squad from the rule so it can be bloody good bonus if it goes well.


Total Avatar Deaths by Weapon Type:

Lascannons: 0
Railguns: 0
Krak Missiles: 0
Eaten by enemy MCs: 0
Boltguns: 2397 and counting.

:grin:


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

Sethis said:


> Total Avatar Deaths by Weapon Type:
> 
> Lascannons: 0
> Railguns: 0
> ...


Don't forget the countless deaths from melta weapons :rofl:


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## iamtheeviltwin (Nov 12, 2012)

Sethis said:


> 20 1K Sons is what, 500pts or so? And they'll get scrubbed off the table by many, many combat units that cost far less than that, ranging from 30 Boyz w/ Klaw, through to near-free Termagants, through to 10 Hammernators. Alternatively they'll lose a shooting war to a guard blob sat behind an Aegis 24" away. Hell, I'll plonk 3 Scatter Walkers and a Guideseer opposite them for 250pts and they'll be gone by turn 4.


Like I said, more firepower than you can normally afford to waste on the unit. Even in a 1000pt game, after you toss in a couple blobs of cultists a drake a sorcerer and some form of Heavy Team (oblits). The space marine blob is often a lower priority target. 

BTW - nowhere near an optimum list, just something I faced recently, I basically tabled the opponent in 6 turns (3 models left)...but lost fight because clearing the 1k sons off the relic proved frustratingly difficult especially with screening groups of cultists.

(1k sons will always have a frag missile equivalent and maybe a melta in the aspiring sorc)

1k sons may not be an "optimal" choice, but they can be used very effectively. Lack of Overwatch is a small issue for them.


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

> 20 1K Sons is what, 500pts or so?


Yeah I am not sure if running them in big squads like this is the way to go, as you're putting all your eggs in one basket so to speak, which makes it easier to isolate them. Also, you can't put 20 in a rhino, which makes them painfully slow. 
That said, I haven't ever tried running them like this, so I can't disregard it entirely. But as I said earlier, once I started sticking my 1ksons in Rhinos I didn't turn back and had infinitely more success running them like this. 



> they'll get scrubbed off the table by many, many combat units that cost far less than that, ranging from 30 Boyz w/ Klaw


Not sure if I agree with this though: I've seen even small squads ( around 7) tarpit TH/SS termies for lengthy periods on numerous occasions. So, since those Boyz will be striking last, it's highly unlikely they will be "scrubbed off the table". 



> through to 10 Hammernators


Hammernators are one of the most powerful units in the game for their points cost, so there aren't all that many troop choices that can stand upto them. 

Unless you are standing your 1ksons around waiting to be charged by Hammernators or an Ork Boy mob - in which case, you are an idiot...who would actually do this? - you are going to be using them to rapid fire and charge. Which is their major strength. Not being able to assault from a rhino isn't a problem either, because you should be disembarking, rapid firing, and using the rhino to physically block off any charge route. Again, this isn't hard to do. 

But the real point here is that all of these criticisms are situational and assume the 1ksons player is a moron:



> Alternatively they'll lose a shooting war to a guard blob sat behind an Aegis 24" away


Why on earth would anyone do this, since everyone knows to keep 1ksons away from massed rapid fire weapons? Infact, you shouldn't be randomly walking upto to any massed rapid fire weapons (especially behind an Aegis) unless you are sure you can whittle them down enough. Also, not many troop choices can win a shooting war with a guard blob so....



> Not to mention that they aren't mobile


Rhino. Like CSM, Plague Marines etc. 



> have no anti-tank


So? Actually, if you really want you can take Bolt or melta bombs...



> and only have S4 weaponry - AP3 or no


So what? They are troop choices with anti-infantry role, which they do rather well. Take other stuff to deal with tanks. Long-range AT is arguably better anyway, since HPs made mech fairly redundant. In an objective-based 6th edition, it's more important that troop choices can hold objectives, flexibility is secondary. The primary points are that if you understand the role of 1ksons and play to their strengths (though this is stating the obvious) and make sure your list is built to synergise with them, they are a decent unit. 



> The best use of the Chaos Codex is to pack as many bodies in as efficiently as possible.


Interesting. I guess that is _*one*_ way to use it. 



> 1K Sons are simply too expensive and don't do enough to justify their inclusion, especially if you're wasting a HQ slot to make them Troops when you could have a Nurgle or Khorne Lord instead.


I guess if you are looking at it from a WAAC, competitive-tournament perspective than this might be true. I get the impression though that the OP was asking about overwatch because he had concerns that his 1ksons might not even be semi-competitive (i.e will get crushed in every game, even friendly games). That certainly isn't true. And I respect anyone who challenges the status quo and tries something different while sticking to the fluff they love. I hate it when people try discouraging that, especially when they haven't even tried it out for themselves and are just recycling the usual criticism they have heard and read about. 

SF


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

iamtheeviltwin said:


> Like I said, more firepower than you can normally afford to waste on the unit. Even in a 1000pt game, after you toss in a couple blobs of cultists a drake a sorcerer and some form of Heavy Team (oblits). The space marine blob is often a lower priority target.
> 
> BTW - nowhere near an optimum list, just something I faced recently, I basically tabled the opponent in 6 turns (3 models left)...but lost fight because clearing the 1k sons off the relic proved frustratingly difficult especially with screening groups of cultists.
> 
> ...


You pretty much summed it up. +rep.


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

Sethis said:


> Total Avatar Deaths by Weapon Type:
> 
> Lascannons: 0
> Railguns: 0
> ...


If only that were true. The boltguns I would take but it was the plasma pistol the Sergeant had and the special weapon Plasma gunner too. Gut wrenching...

To add salt to the wound he was punched, yes punched, to death by the tactical squad in the first round of combat.

Truly horrendous rolls but so utterly humiliating it was amusing.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Straken's_Fist said:


> I guess if you are looking at it from a WAAC, competitive-tournament perspective than this might be true. I get the impression though that the OP was asking about overwatch because he had concerns that his 1ksons might not even be semi-competitive (i.e will get crushed in every game, even friendly games). That certainly isn't true. And I respect anyone who challenges the status quo and tries something different while sticking to the fluff they love. I hate it when people try discouraging that, especially when they haven't even tried it out for themselves and are just recycling the usual criticism they have heard and read about.


I'm a follower of the "If you're going to do something, do it to your best standard" philosophy. That includes building army lists, painting and playing the game. If that makes me "WAAC" and "competitive" with all the negative connotations they imply, then I can't do anything to change your mind.

The OP asked "Are 1K Sons bad because they can't overwatch?" and my opinion is "No, they're bad for several other reasons", as outlined in my previous post. If I've given him something to think about, cool. If not, maybe someone else who was thinking about taking them has learned something. Either way, I don't have much invested in the discussion so I'll leave it there. :drinks:


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## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Don't feel that being competitive or waac player is a bad thing. Well, maybe being waac might be a bit in some circumstances (like showing no mercy to kids who are playing their first game, for example), but being super-competitive certainly isn't. Everyone enjoys 40k for different reasons, so who is anyone to judge you? I respect people who are in it for the gaming side and who want to win tournaments, as long as they respect those who are in it for more fun games, the odd campaign, and/or the modelling and painting side. And likewise, they should respect the competitive gamers in return. So I do apologise if what i said came across as a personal attack - it wasnt meant that way at all...Admittedly, i am probably over-defensive at times about the thousand sons at times (ask mossy toes) due to my passion i have for them. Stupid really since they are just toy soldiers but there you go. SF


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Straken's_Fist said:


> Don't feel that being competitive or waac player is a bad thing. Well, maybe being waac might be a bit in some circumstances (like showing no mercy to kids who are playing their first game, for example), but being super-competitive certainly isn't. Everyone enjoys 40k for different reasons, so who is anyone to judge you? I respect people who are in it for the gaming side and who want to win tournaments, as long as they respect those who are in it for more fun games, the odd campaign, and/or the modelling and painting side. And likewise, they should respect the competitive gamers in return. So I do apologise if what i said came across as a personal attack - it wasnt meant that way at all...Admittedly, i am probably over-defensive at times about the thousand sons at times (ask mossy toes) due to my passion i have for them. Stupid really since they are just toy soldiers but there you go. SF


Competitive and WAAC are two pretty different things. One is concerned with being very good at the game; the metaphorical hardcore competitive chess player. The other is concerned with being a rule abusing ass-hat; the guy that tries to convince you that his pawns behave like queens because of some insignificant little loophole in the rules (real or imagined), or weird interpretation.

There's nothing wrong with being competitive.


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

If I recall correctly, there was only one time where Overwatch worked out for me.

A unit for 8 or so Wyches attempted to assault my 5 or so Immortals with Tesla Rifles. Unfortunately for my opponent, I rolled four '6's, which came to 12 hits in Overwatch.

The Wyches never made it to combat.


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## Nefrugle (Sep 14, 2011)

I have watched my buddys wraith-guard unit overwatch a C'tan, and instant it out rolling 3 6's on the wound roll. He failed 1 4++ and was removed. C'tan's do not have eternal, it is quite hilarious at the things that can happen during an over watch, but they are unreliable.


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

Overwatch creates those rare WTF moments which create laughter in friendly games and tears in tourneys, but other than that it means people don't attempt 12" charges, it would be nice if it was only on a successesful charge though


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

Nefrugle said:


> I have watched my buddys wraith-guard unit overwatch a C'tan, and instant it out rolling 3 6's on the wound roll. He failed 1 4++ and was removed. C'tan's do not have eternal, it is quite hilarious at the things that can happen during an over watch, but they are unreliable.


I just checked my Necron Codex. C'Tan Shards do have Eternal Warrior. It shouldn't have been instantly removed.


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## Nefrugle (Sep 14, 2011)

The Sturk said:


> I just checked my Necron Codex. C'Tan Shards do have Eternal Warrior. It shouldn't have been instantly removed.


Well, someone needs to learn their Codex.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Theres only one type of weapon thats really dangerous on overwatch, and thats flamer template weapons. Burnas, Sisters with flamers, Gauntlet of Fire lord units, these can create huge damage on overwatch. But thats about it. I have never felt that overwatch has saved my skin from an assault, and I don't rely on it too much unless I am running 5 gauntlet lords. No one wants to charge that and for good reason, and the same feelings go for Burnas and flamerspam SoB.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Iron Angel said:


> Theres only one type of weapon thats really dangerous on overwatch, and thats flamer template weapons. Burnas, Sisters with flamers, Gauntlet of Fire lord units, these can create huge damage on overwatch. But thats about it. I have never felt that overwatch has saved my skin from an assault, and I don't rely on it too much unless I am running 5 gauntlet lords. No one wants to charge that and for good reason, and the same feelings go for Burnas and flamerspam SoB.


What about tesla? Sure its not drastically better then regular shooting but a ten man squad will average around 6 hits reliably. Sure not a big problem for marines, but its enough to make a lot of Geck armies really second guess charging a immortal squad.


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