# Report: HE and Dwarfs vs. Orcs and Goblins



## Ascendant Valor (Jan 3, 2009)

I'll preface this with a few key points, just to cover my own ass:

-It was a 2v2 match, 5000pts each side. We shared a single general and power/dispell pool.
-I was not prepared for this battle. That is, I intended to have a pitched battle with WoC versus DE.



So, the reason I am writing this all up is to get your input on what should have happened, or what shouldn't have. It just felt like a terrible matching, the HE and Dwarfs. I felt confined to my own lines as a HE player, since I usually have the opportunity to outmaneuver my opposition. Here, I focused my units to form and hold our line, since the Dwarfs would never have kept up; leaving them to fend on their own against the hordes of OG to hound their flanks is just a terrible idea, or at least as I saw it.


Anyway, the lists were something like the following:

*HE*
Teclis
Archmage
Mage
Mage
SpearElves
Archers x2
White Lions
Phoenix Guard x2
Swordmasters
RBTx2

*Dwarfs*
Thane
Hero (another Thane?)
Warriors
Thunderers
Cannon x2
Goblin Hewer

*Orcs and Goblins*
Gorbad
Shaman, en masse
Black Orcs, en masse
Doom Divers, Bolt Throwers en masse
Chariots x3
Trolls
Giant


These lists are direly understated, for the reason that I'll give the additional necessary information as it becomes pertinent later in my discussion.



Anyway, deployment went along the idea that we would want to complement our units with each other; that is, the staying power of the Dwarfs with the hitting power of the HE. His warriors were mostly flanked by my HE elite units, with my archers and his thunderers paired up accordingly on or near hills. We spaced out the war machines, maximizing potential to hit flanks and the like. His combat characters were mixed with his units, and all my casters focused on buffing magics, so were put safely behind the line.

We won first turn, at which point it felt weird to be boxed in. We held the line, and let the magic and shooting do the talking. 
The magic phase was quite strong. I managed to put up 18 PD (if I'm remembering correctly), with Teclis and the AM pulling IF on doubles. Buffing the units was the primary goal, so Lore of Heavens and High Magic were used liberally. When all was said and done, a couple units got simple buffs, and two castings at IF managed to get Drain Magic off. Twice. That's right, a +6 to casting requirements! 
The cannons failed to destroy the chariots, which was a horrible failing. The bolt throwers managed to put the giant at 3 wounds remaining, and took down 4 black orcs. Still, the horde was ready to approach.

Their phase went amazingly for them. They moved up, with little in the way of Animosity or Stupidity.
The magic phase was poised and ready in our (HE and Dwarf) favor, with the +6 to cast and 13-15 DD. However, they focused on IF casting, so spammed the Power Stones. They threw around the Hand of Gork and Fist of Gork with IF and focused on my casters and our war machines. I lost 2 casters, the AM and a mage, and two cannon crewmen dropped.

The next turn went the same way, almost to the letter. The Giant did drop, our magic continued to buff our troops; their magic continued to damage our troops.

At this point, we had to end it, since our Dwarf player had to leave. But combat was just about to start, with some Boar Boyz (with a character who had his magic items nullified thanks to Vaul's Unmaking) hitting my Swordmasters (VERY bad idea for him). His chariots opted to go for a combined charge with the unit of Trolls and a character against the Dwarfs watching our flank. As long as they held, more Dwarf warriors would have counter charged with some HE archers and Dwarf Thunderers, providing some extra combat resolution (outnumber, flank, etc).

The combat should have gone in our favor, should it have occurred. I even test rolled for my Swordmasters just for kicks, and they took out 4 of 5 Boar Boyz, leaving the lone character with only mundane gear. The warriors would be hurting from the chariots, and the trolls would likely have vomited on them to ignore the Dwarven armor. So the Dwarfs would have a tough time staying, unless its Thane managed to do some serious damage.
Other than that, my PG would have torn up their orcs, hence auto-breaking them.

I still find it odd, though, that the HE and Dwarfs should complement each other, but it feels like they only hurt the other army. The strength of the HE is their speed and CC capability, not their survivability; shooting was a constant worry (even from OnG...), so I wanted to enter CC as fast as possible. Lo and behold!, I was forced to hold the line with the Dwarfs.

In retrospect, the HE should have gone flank-hunting, while the Dwarfs disrupt and hold the enemy forces. The magic was what should have been the only gamble, and it was powerful for either force. Shooting was heavily in our favor. Static combat resolution was in their favor (outnumber, ranks, etc), though our elite and heavy units would master the active combat resolution, barring maneuvering. The ease of the HE would have offered a buffer from our awkward deployment, though that would only be a minor part of the overall combat.

In any case, how would you guys have approached this, given similar circumstances? Deployment, movement, overall tactics, etc. ?


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## maddermax (May 12, 2008)

It doesn't sound like you guys were doing terribly, it would be interesting to see what the rest of the battle would have gone like though, pity you couldn't get another turn in. 

From the sound of it though, I think one problem might have been playing both armies as a static gunline, and not, as you considered, taking your elves as a flanking force. 

Perhaps next time, you should try setting up the dwarves in a strong gunline formation, near the centre (or on hills/good defensive location if available). If you deploy as one army, then deploy most of the dwarves first, so you can see what sort of formation the O&G player starts to make. 

Choose a side of attack, and place most of your force there, ready to move against his weakest flank. If he's set up opposite the dwarves, you should be able to hit the edges of his flanks, without worrying about getting caught up by his whole army. So then, you move up and try to turn his flank, and he'll either have to manoeuvre his army around against you, in which case the dwarves will have a brilliant firing position, straight into his lines or possibly he'll go for the dwarves, in which case your force can cut its way though his lines unit by unit. Of course he'll be able to deploy units against you, but you should still have the advantage when it comes to out manoeuvring him.

Anyway, it sounds like an interesting match up. Dwarves I think can be tricky allies for most armies, and in this case having no casters probably saps from your strong magic abilities. But they do hold a line well, so using that as an anvil against your hammer should work brilliantly.


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## Ascendant Valor (Jan 3, 2009)

The next time we do such a battle, I'll follow your lead, maddermax. I like how such a setup could lead to some controlled confrontations. Thanks for the tips!

I did initially want to lead the flank assault, but I didn't want to leave his units, which were loaded with war machines, on their own. I do see what you mean though, since such a setup would lock the OnG with rock hard and hard hitting units while the war machines would be safely behind the lines. Touche, sir!


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Aye - I agree with Maddermax, (and your own Analysis).

Elves have movement. They work wonders with Anvil units. It's a standard Pincer, and Hammer/Anvil Tactic.

I would have assumed that the Orcs would benefit from you flanking with the Archers. All they have to do is target them, and +2 Cmb Res - and stopped you from shooting. 10 Archers should be shooting, as you already had a flank.

Your set up should be the split.

Refused Flank castle by the Dwarves - Interlocking Fields of Fire, counter charging GW warriors, etc. Deploy the Eagles Claws and Archers there as well.

You should also play refused flank, but on the other way round.

I.e - Dwarves on Right, you're on the left.

Deploy Heavy Infantry Far left, and Infantry angled to the OnG lines. leaves your typically good ASF units (Swordmasters/WL's) to slog it, but they're fast, and hit damn hard, plus Rock Lobbas risk hitting their own troops if done correctly.

Hit the Boyz in the flank with your Spearment, or divert the charge with a well timed assault.

Dwarves are hard as anything, and it take Chaos Warriors/Heavy Cavalry/Unlucky rolls to break them - LD9, with a General and BSB there will make them all but unmoveable.

Still, it's too early to judge, but Elves have movement in their costs - use it. I don't use Marauder Horsemen to throw Axes all the time, I use their movement, because that's why they're there. The only elves, strangely, that do well in a defensive position is the Dark Elves - High Elves and Wood Elves need movement to do them well, and Archers are okay, but not fantastic to hold a line.


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## Ascendant Valor (Jan 3, 2009)

The only reason I would have opted for the Archers to charge in would be to add the flank bonus to our CR. I know HE Archers are not even worthy of being called a joke in CC... Besides, those trolls were eying down those meaty Dwarfs.

What I'm thinking, if given the opportunity to re-do this battle, would be to have the Dwarfs set up a bit off center, perhaps 18" to one side of the center line of the board. They form the typical Castle. The OnG would set up focusing on the castle with some protection to the open side of the board, knowing the OnG guys (I do know one of the guys is a very good player, so he'd likely figure something was up). Once they start to get cozy being, hopefully, spread out the HE amass on the open side of the table, ready to hit the sides of the OnG force.
I'd imagine the OnG guys would know something was up with the off-set castle, but I'd like to think that it would take more than a few units of Black Orcs to stop some Swordmasters and White Lions.
On that note, though, the PG would be quite useless. They won't be doing enough damage, and their Ward Save wouldn't help if they could butcher the entire fighting rank of Orcs, or have MR(2) to ward off magic. Hence, more White Lions!

I do agree with you guys, though: the HE Archers and RBTs would do well to support the castle effort within the confines of said castle. Since they are the only units I had that would not benefit from leaving the line, they may as well stick around with the Dwarfs and have some beer in between volleys.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

If you play again though I would cut down on your mages and go for more fighty characters as the Dwarves cannot contribute to your casting turn but a well timed drain magic combined with dwarf magic resistance should be enough to cancel the O&G magic and you can then concentrate on killing. leaving all your shooting units in a castle formation with the Dwarf troops is a good idea while your other more offensive units and any slayers should speed forward and disrupt and destroy as much of your opponents army so the remnants of the O&G are to weak to break the castle.


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## The Shadow Veil (Jul 26, 2008)

I like the idea of the split deployment, dwarves one side HE the other, but I would be afraid that the enemy would just use terrain to hide from the missile-heavy dwarves and send everything against the HE, two armies against one.

Never underestimate HE archers, mine took out a vampire in cc.:biggrin:
Oh yeah, and HE do work defensively with the right buffs and good deployment.


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