# How do you stay excited to play?



## Wasabi (Aug 24, 2010)

Hey guys, so I've played about 15 8th edition games with O&G and WoC and I've lost every single one. I didn't lose because of bad setup or bad tactical strategies, nothing like that. I lost purely on chance. Every single game I do fairly well on magic, decent at shooting and then I whiff my close combat 100% of the time. 

Today's latest failure I played 1500pts WoC vs HE. I murdered his Phoenix Guard block with my Hellcannon and magic. Speed ahead to our Close Combat phase and the game goes downhill. My Sorc dies from Miscast even with Infernal Puppet. He had 4 Dragon Princes + Mounted Noble charge a block of 17 Warriors w/ FC, Mark of Nurgle and BSB. Then 20 Spearmen flanked the same block. Ok not a big deal, his knights only killed 3. So it's my turn to attack. I throw 16 attacks and miss 14 of them. All 1's and 2's. I lost the combat, fled into one of his Great Eagles and they all died.

I forfeit after that because all I had left was a Hellcannon and a block of 16 Warriors w/ FC, no more Lords or Heroes on the table, against 2x20 Spearmen w/ 1 Noble on foot and the Dragon Prince unit.

These losses are so frustrating because the exact same thing happens EVERY game! I haven't won a single close combat because I never hit anything. What do I do?? If this has happened to you, what do you do to keep the desire to play? At this point I want to just sell everything and quit Warhammer.


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## Whizzwang (Dec 31, 2008)

Tough one.

One game with bad luck sucks, but a run of them is just awful.

Losing your big unit to the Eagle sounds like it was more down to positioning than the dice though. Letting the Eagle survive to get behind that unit, and then exposing it's flank to the spears is what cost you, not the dire rolling. Granted the roll didn't help as you could have pulled it back, but you were in a bad position to start with.

That being the case, I'd advise getting some cheapass screening units. Warhounds in WoC, Night Gobs in O+G for the fanatics. 
If you can keep on a straight footing with your opponent with that power unit + BSB, you should be fine even if the dice Gods hate you.

Staying motivated though, that's pretty hard to do, especially if your bad streak is a long one. I just try and remind myself that I play O+G so it's suposed to go wrong, I get worried when it doesn't


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## Drax (Sep 19, 2007)

i'll be honest with you, Warhammer doesn't come naturally to me. I can't do math hammer, brilliant wargear combos don't leap out of the book at me and i can't play the game two turns ahead of my opponents - and often i win, not least because i game against someone who can do all those things, but i love the game and how i lose can be just as much a learning experience as when i win - often more so.

8th really is a different creature to 7th, and its taken me a while to adapt, but i keep switching things around and taking note of where they do well and where they don't on an individual basis and in combo with others.

its hard to keep positive loss after loss, but asking for help like you are here is a good start to getting your head around things as something you think you are doing right but not having success with, someone else may just tweak it a little and help it work

how did your list look? perhaps kit the bsb to be more a character killer than a magic banner holder will help make the difference since he has to challenge anyway


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## Wasabi (Aug 24, 2010)

I liked the list, but the problem was that I just rolled terrible. What is that, 87.5% of my rolls were misses? 14/16 attacks missed, and this isn't a one off. Like I said, this is roughly my 15th loss in a row and every single close combat phase my dice rolls disappear. 

For example, I had a unit of 19 Black Orcs + Black Orc Warboss that was just decked out with Ward Saves and brutal melee power against a block of 20 Spearmen. I got the charge, but as always HE get ASF + now they get re-rolls... I have no idea why GW thought that was a good idea. Anyway, so his HE killed 4 Black Orcs. What did my Black Orcs do? Well, out of the 19 regular models I made 10 attacks and missed... ALL of them. Next up is the Warboss. He ended up having something like 6-7 attacks. 1 attack hit and failed to wound. 

This game, 14/16 Chaos Warriors missed their attacks against Dragon Princes. Never mind that DP have good armour saves, but 14 misses ended the game.

Another match, I had 5 Chaos Knights charge a block of 10 Phoenix Guard. Phoenix Guard only managed to kill 1 Knight so that leaves me with 13 attacks (9 + 4 from horses). 1 attack hit but didn't wound.

In a game vs Skaven, I had 10 Chosen charge the remainder of 3 Rat Ogres and 1 Packmaster. 21 Attacks, 4 hit, 2 wounded. On his turn I lost 5 Chosen.

These are just my most memorable fails, but it has happened every single game with every single block.


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## Tolisk (Aug 23, 2010)

I havent evens started a game yet but this is a d6 and sometimes a d3, My thoughts are that the insides of the dice might have been created wrong and they have a defect to land on lower sides more often, or its just the worst luck, ether way keep playing and someday you will win, or switch to 40k and try that.


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Reality is, your dice aren't losing you most of your games, it sounds like your tactics are losing you most of the games, I really doubt every roll is 1's and 2's. It sounds like you are being out maneuvered and outplayed, I think a good strategy would be to work at the factors you can control rather than blaming those that you can't.

For a start, what are your army lists like?

What do you do in game, what's a break down of your games?

It's easy to shift blame away from yourself and claim it's bad luck, but I have horrible luck and I win game after game after game.


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

Sounds like you need new dice bro. If your recountings are accurate, and (no offense) but I highly doubt that someone looses that much based solely on dice, then that's really the only thing you need to do.

If, however, you are not loosing solely based on your abysmal rolls, post a battle report or two on Heresy. There are tons of people who love dissecting those things hardcore, and most of the advice they give is pretty good. Posting "my dice keep screwing me I hate Warhammer" doesn't really give people a lot to work with brosef.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

You cant win if nothing you try works... but you can minimise bad luck, mostly by playing with a simple version of game theory (full game theory application is taking mathhammer far too far).

A living example of this is my wood elves (they live?). I have a couple units of wardancers who tend to get the charge into the flanks of enemy units... now the chance of me winning is pretty small, but since the payoffs can be big (occasionally gamewinning) whereas if I lose I often break and get away (often because pursuing doesnt give the opponent many points they dont bother since it would pull them out of position- additonal reason for charging) or if the worst case happens I lose ~100pts (~250 if my noble is with them). So if I get lucky I could kill a 300+pt main battleline unit... whereas if I lose Im losing a 100pt disposible unit. So my capacity for bad luck in that case is very small, while the opponent is able to have a spout of terrible luck.

Similarly since I know I cant roll dice I hate to use anything in40k with a 2+ save... since Im the sort of player who manages to roll 5 1's out of 5. After a very prolonged period of very bad armour saves I started up a new tyranid army (which I wanted to do anyway) and simply avoided the problem- instead of being able to have bad luck with a terminator unit I suddenly had huge numbers of termagants, who didnt ever get a save... so to kill 200pts of them you needed to actually inflict ~33 wounds.
- doesnt help against the good luck of opponents, but then the best 'luck' creates the funniest in-game moments (its just harsh if the luck is all one way all the time).


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## Whizzwang (Dec 31, 2008)

Tim/Steve said:


> Similarly since I know I cant roll dice I hate to use anything in40k with a 2+ save... since Im the sort of player who manages to roll 5 1's out of 5. After a very prolonged period of very bad armour saves I started up a new tyranid army (which I wanted to do anyway) and simply avoided the problem- instead of being able to have bad luck with a terminator unit I suddenly had huge numbers of termagants, who didnt ever get a save... so to kill 200pts of them you needed to actually inflict wounds.
> - doesnt help against the good luck of opponents, but then the best 'luck' creates the funniest in-game moments (its just harsh if the luck is all one way all the time).


THIS... is the most awesome gamer logic ever. I'm getting me a Gnoblar army. +rep sir. Genius on a whole new level.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

It works both ways- any time you deal with 'unlikely' roles luck, either good or bad, has a very large part to play.

A couple of rival examples: thunderers shooting at HE would pretty reliably kill something close to average every turn of the game... it would almost certainly be nothing much to run screaming around the room for. 3-4s needed to hit, 3s to wound with no save... pretty boring and if a few more wounds then expected happen its no big deal.

Now if we have a unit of gnoblars shooting at some chaos knights suddenly its potentially a huge deal and is solely down to luck- 40 shots from gnoblar, even under the best posible conditions shouldnt cause more then 1 wound at a time... if my gnoblar managed that I would be exstatic (thats their points back in 1 round of shooting). I need 5-6s to hit, 6s to wound and a 2+ save to be failed... suddenly some luck could mean that almost all of my shots hit and then I get a very large proportion of wounds. Suddenly instead of the average of ~2 wounds I could have got lucky and got 6-7... and then we've all seen 4-5 failed 2+ saves from that sort of number of saves before.
Since the necessary dice roles were 'unlikely' they are much more open to extremes of variation... which is then reinforced by psychology: no-one remembers if gnoblars kill no knights, even if they shoot at them all game, no-one will remember if some dwarves got a little lucky and killed a few more high elves then the average would have suggested... but if some lowly gnoblars tear the heart out of a unit of knights then it'll stick in everyone's mind as a moment of extreme bad luck.

Since I hate 'luck' winning/losing games for me I tend to stay away from the potential 'extreme' items/units. A good example of this is the ogre's best magic weapon, the thundermace. It hits as a S4(8) stone thrower in combat, but it only works if your 1 attack hits... now I would be much happier with the reliable 5 S7 attacks I can get from a standard great weapon rather then the huge potential that I can get off the thundermace, with its associated chance of a total fail.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

As said, it's not just the dice rolling (although of course that doesn't help), but your tactics.

Firstly - getting yourself flanked with Chaos Warriors (yes, they're hard, but not enough to get flanked on two sides, especially by Dragon Princes) is not particularly pretty - especially as against ASF, you lose the benefit of your WS and I, which are Chaos Warriors Strengths (most people believe it's the S, T, A, and Armour Save - but it's not the full story any more).

Firstly - your Hellcannon boobed by Nuking the Phoenix Guard. With a 4+ Ward, half the template, bar poor rolling is going to survive. You need to target something squishy. Elf Spears - as you've found out, have the potential to get 50 Rerollable Attacks with ASF. Even though T4 and a 4+ Armour Save (or 3+/5+ as I like to run) is likely to save you, on average, you're taking 38 Hits, 13 wounds, and 7 deaths, before you've done anything.

At an average of 20 points a model (including Standard, Command, marks and equipment), you do NOT want to be doing that.

Warriors could beat down on the PG all day. A 4+ Ward Save will not be able to counter a unit of Chaos Warriors with Halberds/Great Weapons - especially with the MoK. They have... 11 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds, and perhaps 1 or 2 deaths at worst case scenario. In return, you punch out 16 Attacks, 8 hits, 6-7 wounds, 3-4 deaths.

You then have your other warriors, Knights, Hellcannon whatever to smash apart the Spearmen Regiments.

Try posting your list as well - we should be able to help if somethings aren't going right in that department as well.

And fair enough, there's bad luck. But I do call bullshit on Chaos Knights, Black Orcs and Chaos Warriors consistently failing to even hit with their 20+ attacks. Sorry, but that doesn't wash. 15 losses aren't caused down to rolls that consistently poor. You may have some poor rolls at a pivotal point in the battle. Fair enough. But you're doing something wrong if you're losing a Chaos Warrior unit (with the BSB and Ld9 General nearby, apparently?) to an outflanking Great Eagle every game.


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Tim's point is true, as someone with bad luck I tend to stick by things which don't depend on luck, either I'm rolling HEAPS of dice (skaven etc) or they have no armour, so I don't care, chaos are my first deviation from that.

Re-rolls also hep minimise bad luck.

The biggest thing I do, to minimise my bad luck, is I work on my units being 30% effective in combat, I don't comitt them to fights willingly unless I feel that at 30% they will still win. It helps because as someone who constantly rolls badly, I need to work with that.

As an example, my chaos lord and chaos dragon failed to kill a single leadbelcher in a round of combat. Before that my lord failed a charmed shied (2+) and normal armour (2+). Then failed a 15" charge by rolling 3 1's and copping another wound from stand and shoot gnoblars. He then failed a panic test and ran off of the battlefield at LD9 with a re-roll. That is not uncommon for me but it happens, so I try and minimise it and just throw dice at my own models to relieve aggitation.


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## Wasabi (Aug 24, 2010)

That's fine Vaz, you can call BS on my rolls but that doesn't change the fact that it happened. The Great Eagle also didn't attack in my flank, it was a few inches away so when my Warriors fled they hit the Eagle and died.

Anyway, here's the list I used today. It wasn't meant to be competitive, I just wanted to see how the Cannon + Doom banner would work. My cousin failed his LD test twice thanks to the banner, but he had some gem thing that let him re-roll so he rolled on his LD test 3 times and finally passed it.


1497pts Lord:
Chaos Sorc LvL 4 325pts
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Infernal Puppet

Hero:
Exalted Hero 239pts
-Mark of Nurgle
-BSB
-Doom Totem (for Hellcannon panic tests)
-Shield
-Halberd

Core:
17 Warriors w/ Full Command 379 (Sorc goes here)
-Halberds
-Shields
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Blasted Banner

17 Warriors w/ Full Command 349pts (BSB goes here)
-Halberds
-Shields
-Mark of Nurgle

HellCannon 205


This is the list I plan on trying next time:

1496
Lord:
Chaos Sorc LvL 4 370pts 
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Infernal Puppet
-Talisman of Preservation

Core:
17 Warriors w/ Full Command 342pts (Sorc goes here)
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Shields
-Rapturous Standard 

19 Warriors w/ Full Command 389pts
-Mark of Tzeentch
-Shields
-Banner of Rage 


5 Warhounds 30pts

Warshrine 160pts
-Mark of Tzeentch

Hellcannon 205pts


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

For a start, not to be mean, but you clearly don't know the rules properly. If you flee from combat, through an enemy unit, you don't die, you lose each model which flees over the eagle on a 1.

You can only re-roll a standard roll, you can't re-roll a re-roll. Simply: One re-roll per dice roll only.

It's obvious you don't know the rules too well and your cousin either doesn't know the rules, or is cheating.

Your statements of situations/scenarios clearly illustrate that you are playing poorly and being outmaneuvered and outplayed.

Rather than externalising your defeat and blaming something you can't control (dice) you could look at yourself realistically, accept blame and try to improve, rather than making a baaaaaaaw thread and trying to get pity.


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## Wasabi (Aug 24, 2010)

Ok for starters, you're right. I clearly didn't know the rules properly, including fleeing through units, and we both made a mistake for the re-rolls which would've made a big difference in my last game.

Secondly, yeah I'm playing poorly because I obviously didn't know all the rules entirely and I'm being outmaneuvered because he has more units on the board then I do. There's nothing I could've done about that with the lists I took, which also leads to him being able to outplay me, so yes you're right about that but not in the context that it seems you're implying. I'm trying to use every unit in the book so I can learn what they do, you know, so I stop sucking at the game.

Lastly, a lot of what I've mentioned has to do with my fail dice rolls. Not knowing the rules properly has nothing to do with why I rolled so many 1's, 2's and 3's to hit, that's completely separate from any unit positioning or tactics or rules. I never once complained about being flanked or anything of that nature, I merely stated what happened. Obviously I'm always trying to improve, which is why I've kept playing games and learning more from each one, but to say that I should look at myself and accept blame over something I literally can't control (dice) and saying I'm making a baaaaaaaaw thread to get pity is bull crap. 

I'm not trying to get pity, I'm not making a wine thread. If you had bothered to read the entire post in the first place you would've seen I was only asking what you players do to keep yourself motivated and essentially keep looking forward to games even if you lose a few in a row.

It apparently seems to have become a "baaaaaaaaw" thread because everyone keeps implying or flat out stating that I've lied about my dice rolls and then completely ignores the fact of the dice and immediately says I'm a garbage player.

All I was actually looking for was a bit of motivation because I'm new and I'm clearly having a hard time enjoying something I have a great interest in. Instead, I get a "liar, you suck lol learn to play." response from most (not all) posters so far.

Thanks, really.


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## Wiccus (Jun 2, 2008)

personally what I do to stay motivated is actually to drop it for a moment and play another game to try and alleviate my frustrations. Get into a small skirmish game like Mordheim, Necromunda, Infinity or Malifaux. Its cheap and it provides a distraction for when you are failing hard at your main game. I have gone on some huge losing streaks in a game and then went and played another game for a few weeks or a month then came back and had a blast even if I lose. 

Taking a break is what I would suggest. That and using the same list for several battles in a row. Sometimes if you get defeated you think it must be a flaw with the list but if you give a list 3-5 battles then often times you will come to the realization "oh hey thats how this works". Anyways good luck.

Also it might help if you set your dice out and melted one in front of them to let them know what the price of failure is.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

> 1497pts Lord:
> Chaos Sorc LvL 4 325pts
> -Mark of Tzeentch
> -Infernal Puppet


This guy's fine. His spells are best set for nuking not elite units (i.e PG), but things like Spearmen. They're less likely to be scrolled/dispelled, and especially when Phoenix Guard have a 50% chance of shrugging off those spells, it's not what you want. Bad dice rolls? Try getting an irresistable force Flickering Fire, and roll 7 S7 hits (that's 4 6's), only to get 3 wounds, followed by my opponent making 3 6+ Ward Saves from MR. That unit of Sword Masters then went on to kill 350pts worth of my units.

If you were playing a little bit higher in points, I'd suggest taking Vilitch, until you get to around 2.5K, and try and get yourself Galrauch (aside from being the second best model in the range), but we'd be 20 pts over otherwise.



> Exalted Hero 239pts
> -Mark of Nurgle
> -BSB
> -Doom Totem (for Hellcannon panic tests)
> ...


Not too sure on the need for the MoN. If he's going to be sitting in hard cover for the game, then maybe - having a -4 to hit is a tasty little thing. If he's sitting in a unit, however, I think giving him a MoT for the ward save to help stop the odd "oops" from a cannon snipe. Dropping the Halberd gives you a 5+ Ward in CC as well, making him far more survivable than a -1 to WS and a -1 to BS which doesn't effect. MoN has been heavily nerfed, as it no longer takes effect when you're attacking (although there's not many WS7 characters around).



> Core:
> 17 Warriors w/ Full Command 379 (Sorc goes here)
> -Halberds
> -Shields
> ...


You do not be wanting Halberds with these badboys. Currently, you've got a 3+/4++ Save versus range, and a 4+/6++ in CC, meaning that they won't be lasting as long - especially against annoying things like HElf Spears, where the sheer number of attacks will cause more damage than any unit with a few medium to high strength attacks. Just keeping them with Shields will give you a 3+/4++ against range, just dropping to a 3+/5++ save in CC. This increases your chance of saving wounds from 59% to 78% (3/5 to 4/5).



> 17 Warriors w/ Full Command 349pts (BSB goes here)
> -Halberds
> -Shields
> -Mark of Nurgle


Just confirms that there's been no real need for the MoN on the BSB. A Favourite unit of mine is giving the block the Banner of Rage - This gives your unit 25 S5 Attacks, while you now have 19.



> HellCannon 205


Good. Remember it's extremely strong in Close Combat - Elves can only wound it on a 6, and it's very dangerous with it's armour save, ward save, toughness and wounds. It moves as a monster, so putting in terrain will mean that you can put it in terrain and slow down the cavalry which is the one dangerous thing to the Hellcannon (10 S5 can make a bit of a mess, despite it's 5 T6 Wounds).



> Lord:
> Chaos Sorc LvL 4 370pts
> -Mark of Tzeentch
> -Infernal Puppet
> -Talisman of Preservation


Off the top of my head, that's a 5++ Save isn't it, giving you a 4++ Save? My main question about this is whether taking this is going to be a benefit. Did you lose the Lord to wounds, or being caught?



> Core:
> 17 Warriors w/ Full Command 342pts (Sorc goes here)
> -Mark of Tzeentch
> -Shields
> -Rapturous Standard


I disagree with this banner, unless you know you're not going to be facing archers. I feel it's best if you start preparing a come one, come all list, rather than tailoring for specifics etc.



> 19 Warriors w/ Full Command 389pts
> -Mark of Tzeentch
> -Shields
> -Banner of Rage


MoN is better than the MoT with this unit. If you need the points, drop the Champion. You will find that you could be seeing this unit dropping like flies, and no amount of 6+ Ward Saves will save you. Instead a -1 to hit will see those 3+ Saves tested less against incoming fire. Against Elves, who are WS4, having the MoN is less benefit, but WS3 units will really feel it's bite.




> 5 Warhounds 30pts


They're not too shabby, but they're so much dead meat, I feel now. I'm not exactly sure why Wizzy suggested taking them, they used to be a must have in a list, but now, they don't trouble light cavalry at all, now that they're shitty little War Beasts.



> Warshrine 160pts
> -Mark of Tzeentch


Bit of a miscount, these are 150 =). Solid choice though.



> Hellcannon 205pts


Very nice.

I think it's missing a BSB - but I'm not sure what to take out. I think even a bog standard BSB with Shield is only 140pts, and does the job that's needed - not the panic inducement of the BSB - keep that for 2-2.5K games where you can survive it a little bit without having to eek out points.


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## Wasabi (Aug 24, 2010)

Wiccus said:


> Also it might help if you set your dice out and melted one in front of them to let them know what the price of failure is.


Lol if they weren't $20 Chessex dice, I'd gladly do that!



Vaz said:


> Not too sure on the need for the MoN.


Initially I took MoN because I was going to take the Festering Banner, but then I realized I might have some luck with the Hellcannon's -1 LD Panic test + Doom banner for a -2 LD Panic test so I forgot to change the Mark. Had we known the rules, his 20 PG + Lvl 4 Archmage woulda went screaming off the table on the first turn... so disappointing.



> You do not be wanting Halberds with these badboys. Currently, you've got a 3+/4++ Save versus range, and a 4+/6++ in CC, meaning that they won't be lasting as long - especially against annoying things like HElf Spears, where the sheer number of attacks will cause more damage than any unit with a few medium to high strength attacks. Just keeping them with Shields will give you a 3+/4++ against range, just dropping to a 3+/5++ save in CC. This increases your chance of saving wounds from 59% to 78% (3/5 to 4/5).


I took Hallies since HE get ASF + re-rolls I'm always going last and getting pounded by a lot. Having S5 vs T3 is nice especially since they only have a 5+ AS, so they lose their AS completely as well. Not to mention it's cheaper than GW for the same basic effect. However, I probably should've left the Hallies out and had more points to play with.



> Good. Remember it's extremely strong in Close Combat - Elves can only wound it on a 6, and it's very dangerous with it's armour save, ward save, toughness and wounds. It moves as a monster, so putting in terrain will mean that you can put it in terrain and slow down the cavalry which is the one dangerous thing to the Hellcannon (10 S5 can make a bit of a mess, despite it's 5 T6 Wounds).


I don't see anything in the book that says the Hellcannon has a Ward save. I only see the 4+ AS. Also, since the Hellcannon moves as a monster, can I charge with it? Sounds like I can but I didn't want to bother chancing it because my opponent is incredibly annoying at trying to find loopholes to stop anything I do that doesn't benefit him, including looking up if a "Hit" on artillery dice still means the shot scatters... every single time it happens.



> Off the top of my head, that's a 5++ Save isn't it, giving you a 4++ Save? My main question about this is whether taking this is going to be a benefit. Did you lose the Lord to wounds, or being caught?


 The reason I took the Talisman of Preservation (4+ Ward, 3+ w/ MoT) is because he always has to issue a challenge, and who wouldn't want a shot at taking out a Lvl 4 Tzeentch Sorc? At least this way he's relatively safe with a 4+ AS and a 3+ Ward.



> I disagree with this banner, unless you know you're not going to be facing archers. I feel it's best if you start preparing a come one, come all list, rather than tailoring for specifics etc.


I took the Rapturous Standard only because I seem to take a lot of Break tests, so having Insane Courage on ANY doubles seems pretty remarkable to me. I agree it's not the best, but it sure gives me a chance at staying in the fight.



> MoN is better than the MoT with this unit. If you need the points, drop the Champion. You will find that you could be seeing this unit dropping like flies, and no amount of 6+ Ward Saves will save you. Instead a -1 to hit will see those 3+ Saves tested less against incoming fire. Against Elves, who are WS4, having the MoN is less benefit, but WS3 units will really feel it's bite.


 This is all very true, however my opponent never takes Archers against my WoC because the first game we played he had 2 Bolt Throwers and 20 Archers. After a round of Volley from both Bolt Throwers and all 20 Archer shots on a block of 15 Warriors w/ Blaster Banner + MoT he's never taken Archers again after that, unless I play my O&G.



> They're not too shabby, but they're so much dead meat, I feel now. I'm not exactly sure why Wizzy suggested taking them, they used to be a must have in a list, but now, they don't trouble light cavalry at all, now that they're shitty little War Beasts.


I'm not a fan of Warhounds, but I had 34pts leftover and nothing to really spend it on. I could've taken 2 more Warriors, or I could take 5 Hounds and have an extra unit of literal crap that my opponents would have to deal with or suffer being flanked. Either way I see them as a little bit of combat relief, even if they aren't that good.



> Bit of a miscount, these are 150 =). Solid choice though.


My mistake, you're correct. Woohoo 10 more points to play with!

Very nice.



> I think it's missing a BSB - but I'm not sure what to take out. I think even a bog standard BSB with Shield is only 140pts, and does the job that's needed - not the panic inducement of the BSB - keep that for 2-2.5K games where you can survive it a little bit without having to eek out points.


The list is definitely missing a BSB but as you said, I have no idea what to take out. The list composition, imo, seems pretty good overall. With Will of Chaos letting me re-roll panic tests that covers ranged attacks vs my guys, but at the same time if I have to take Break Tests I'm at a huge disadvantage without a BSB... I really don't want to lose the Warshrine or reduce my Warrior blocks too much, they're small enough as it is.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

For me if I have a run of badluck in game I usually stop gaming for a little while and focus on painting or army building.
After a short while painting I'm usually ready for a game and feeling fairly possitive.
Admittedly my dice seem the opposite to yours as unless its computer generated (bloody bloodbowl) I usually roll consistently well.
When there is a phase of the game that I'm struggling in though I do try and adjust my lists to compensate, MY 40K Orks were crap in combat so I adjusted the list and maximised shooting, For the whole of the last edition Idon't think I managed a single meaningful magic phase so my armies were geared towards ignoring or limiting that.


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## Drax (Sep 19, 2007)

Wasabi said:


> 19 Warriors w/ Full Command 389pts
> -Mark of Tzeentch
> -Shields
> -Banner of Rage


just out of interest, are you aware that you won't get the parry save with this unit since they are frenzied?

you may as well drop the shields and give them additional hand weapon or halberds to make them more killy


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## Arli (Mar 4, 2010)

To keep me motivated....

When I lose a game (or when I see that I will lose a game), the biggest thing for me is to have fun with it. I have two armies. I play Lizardmen (primarily) and Ogres (just starting these guys-I lose more with them). When I see that I will lose, I never give up! I will make the opposing player wipe me off the board! The way I see it, if they (I) cannot win, they need to die!

Just this weekend, I faced 2500 points of skaven with my Ogre army. I took Skrag the slaughterer (won him at Games Day Baltimore-awesome time). The doom wheel killed him in the first round! That really sucked! But, hey, I still played. My leadbelchers (3) earned their points tying up a unit of storm vermin for most of the game. I had fun with the game. I did make him wipe my entire army off the board. We went for 5.5 rounds too. When all was said and done, my morale (in regards to my army) was a little lower, but I will be back out there next weekend with Skragg again (I really want to kill something with him).

When I get tired of the Ogres, I will switch back to Lizardmen. But I have to say that my Ogres are a much more challenging army to play.


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## Wasabi (Aug 24, 2010)

Drax said:


> just out of interest, are you aware that you won't get the parry save with this unit since they are frenzied?
> 
> you may as well drop the shields and give them additional hand weapon or halberds to make them more killy


That's one rule I am aware of :laugh:

I kept the shields in case there were any shooters aiming at the unit, I like protection over offense in most cases. I figured with 3 attacks @ S4 they're still doing pretty well, and while I don't get the parry save they still have a 3+ AS this way.


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