# Fortifications



## lockeF (Feb 18, 2011)

Hello, I haven't yet bought any of the new fortifications but I am planning on investing on one this month. I have seen how the defense line performs but I was wondering if anyone has used the fortress of redemption (I quite like this one but wonder if it is practical or a points sink) and the bastion? Is the defense line the best choice by far? Or does it come down to play style? And also, is the quad gun better than the lascannon? I have not used the lascannon before and everyone I know uses the quad gun.

I apologize if this is in the wrong section but it seemed like an appropriate place.

Thanks in advance.


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## Lipsidius1 (Apr 24, 2011)

I've actually used the Las-Cannon in conjunction with 1 of my assassins, (used his BS 8) and it worked beautifully. Never missed. Not a fan of the quad gun as it is only S7 and vs my buddy's Vendettas (AV12) I'd still need a 5 to glance and a 6 to pen.

Credit though needs to be given to Mag-Pie as he's the one who came up with the pairing of the assassin with AA weapon.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

I would say that the aegis defence line is the best way to go. It's no points sink, and can provide you with cover and a solid anti-air defence. The problem it that the gun can be targeted separately if I'm not mistaken.

Not that I play with them, my buddy and I have a bunch of terrain and pretty much all of it is ruins, so 4+ anyway. I tend towards more codex stuff over what is currently available for fortifications.

What army are you looking to add the fortification to?


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

The Aegis and Bastion are both very well priced. The Fortress feels like it is more for cinematic play. But I have not used the Fortress either. The Quadgun is the better option in most cases, unless you play an army with high BS guys or have a guy with preferred enemy manning the Lascannon. I happen to dislike single-shot weapons, especially when you can only field one of them. Plus the Quadgun gives a good comparison point, though the Lascannon is cheaper.

Let's take your standard Rifleman Dreadnought. For most Marine players this will run 125 points. So for slightly less you get the same guns, albeit immobile and a nice piece of terrain in case it's a sparse board, if you take the Aegis. The gun can be targeted and lost(as it can with the Bastion too) but you can never lose the walls. Place it where you plan to place an objective and "hold-the-line." Just watch out for Barrage and Flamer weapons.

The Bastion with Quadgun comes to the same price as the above Dreadnought. Again the gun can be destroyed seperately but an AV 14 building can be a tough nut to crack. It will be a cheap distraction at the very least. But in addition to protecting a squad on the roof, it can have guys inside using the firepoints or emplaced Heavy Bolters. It also gives the Quadgun a better vantage point. So it is better in a lot of ways, but you can't put objectives in it or on it and units in it cannot control an objective. Plus, it can be destroyed and take your squads with it.

Both are good and it really depends on your local meta game. If you see lots of Tau like I do or Lance totting Eldar, I'd avoid the Bastion. The weapon choice also depends on what you usually fight or expect to fight if going to tournaments. And while the Aegis costs less money it actually doesn't come with the Lascannon bitz.


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## lockeF (Feb 18, 2011)

Thanks for all the input you guys. 

I play Tyranids and Dark Angels (very excited for the new anti air offered in the dex). I'll probably pick up the defense line, I play against a lot of high strength shots so I feel like I would lose the building fairly easily (two weeks ago I lost two land raiders turn 1, a little luck on his side). 

I really like the idea of the fortress but worry it could be a points sink and would not work in a lower point game - thus I would probably get more use out of the defense line. Since i will be using BS 4 I guess I will rock the quadgun. I guess I am hesitant about it because I play against Chaos a lot and the lists usually include 2 helldrakes and a vendetta. Its a lot of AV 12 to fight against.


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## Septok (Jan 21, 2012)

The Fortress is a giant roadblock. From what I've read, it's often used to block off large portions of the battlefield, which makes it very hard to get behind - fliers can't score, DSers will almost always mishap if you've got it placed well, pretty much everything else has to go through it. Put an objective by cover and in the corner and another in the nearby fortress, and, should it actually be possible, you've just spent --- points on making 2 objectives hard nuts to crack.

Mind you, this is conjecture based off what I've read. Might not work, might do.


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

As a emplaced gun the Quadgun/Icarus Lascannon cannot be targeted by itself when you take a Bastion. A gun emplacment (which is what the ageis line has, and what can be part of the normal terrain) can be shot.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

The Bastion has a Gun Emplacement the same as the AGL doesn't it?

The Fort of Redemption has the Emplaced Guns.

Looking at the Fort of Redemption anyone for a BS8 Assassin firing a Krakstorm ? large Blast S8 Ap3 ?
Or perhaps even some Grey Knight Purgationers with Psybolt firing the emplaced bolters out to 36" in Night Fight? or the same with the Twinlinked Icarus Autocannon ?

Oh my. FoR is in my future I think!


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Lascannon is the better choice for Aegis line. Sure the Quad cannon gets 4 shots and is more likely to hit, but you need those shots to count. The most dangerous flyers are now armor 12. When they come in, if you just glance them, who cares, they kill your Aegis line crew and unless you have another flyer you're screwed. I would rather have only 1 shot but have a good chance of making it matter.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Glances remove hull points, flyer crashes and burns.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

scscofield said:


> Glances remove hull points, flyer crashes and burns.


I have done and received way more damage through glancing hits over penetrating hits on fliers.

Between my loves of TLAC's and Gauss weaponry armour penetration just doesn't seem to be what it used to be.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

scscofield said:


> Glances remove hull points, flyer crashes and burns.


Cool so I'm assuming you plan to hit with all 4 shots, then roll all 5 and 6s since you need at least 3 to achieve anything?

On average you will get 1 glance on an armor 12 flyer, since glances don't count toward anything it will then destroy either your flyer or aegis line and proceed to furth punish you next turn. But by all means choose the quad cannon since you either enjoy losing or disagreeing with me for the sake of it.

As for Gauss glances, that's a whole different tactica. Why bother taking an Aegis line when everything in a Necron army can easily wreck vehicles/flyers?


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I was responding to the stance that the las is the only option. Has nothing to do with you and everything to do with personal experience. I have not had problems using the QC against av12 flyers. There is more than one way to play the game, untwist your panties.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Had a bit of a think about things over night and I've come up with this as the worst bastard of a position I can think of.

Total Roster Cost: 2000

Start with the Fort
Fortress of Redemption
Missile Silo w/Krakstorm, 4 H Bolters and the Twin Linked Icarus

Manning the Icarus
Using his BS6 to good effect against air and ground targets
Grey Knight Grand Master, + Rad Grenades + Incinerator + Nemesis Daemonhammer 

and just in case anyone gets a bit close
1 Grey Knight Terminator Squad,+ Psybolt
1 Terminator Justicar, Nemesis Warding Stave
1 Terminator, + Psycannon
3 Terminators, + Halberds

Back up In the Tower
1 Grey Knight Terminator Squad,+ Psybolt
1 Terminator Justicar, Nemesis Warding Stave
1 Terminator, + Psycannon
3 Terminators, + Halberds

Manning the missile silo, could also put her on the Icarus if needed. 
With all the other GK's around she should get about 8 extra attacks with the Animus at S5 AP1. 
Her BS8 means the Large Blast doesn't really scatter at all if she has Line of Sight.
Culexus Assassin

In the middle bit Manning the bolters
This squad will Combat Squad, but using the new transport rule the will go in the same building. 4 on the Bolters to buff them with Psybolt. They can also Astral Aim the Conversion Beamers. Each squad could fire at a different target.
1 Purgation Squad, + Psybolt
1 Justicar,
4 Grey Knights, + Psycannon
5 Grey Knights, 
2 Techmarine, + Psychotroke Grenades + Rad Grenades + Servo-skulls x2 + Conversion Beamer


Behind the Fort to lash out and take objectives as required.
Made into troops via the GM and Combat Squadded
1 Grey Knight Interceptor Squad,+ Psybolt
1 Justicar,
2 Grey Knights, + Psycannon
7 Grey Knights,


:so_happy: :grin:


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Side Track Question: Astral Aim works on IC's attached to the unit?


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Yep.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

scscofield said:


> Side Track Question: Astral Aim works on IC's attached to the unit?


Yesssss Muahahahahaha !


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Side Track: That's nuts /Side Track

I think your main issue would be objective missions Mag. You are King of the Castle for sure with the list but someone will still all your serfs.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

scscofield said:


> Side Track: That's nuts /Side Track
> 
> I think your main issue would be objective missions Mag. You are King of the Castle for sure with the list but someone will still all your serfs.


Not so sure. 

The most objectives you can have is 6. Three of which will be mine. I can put 2 behind the Fort and a third somewhere nearby in the open that I can cover with fire. 

I can drop an S8 AP3 Pieplate and 2 S10 AP1 (variable) on any objective anywhere on the table, outside 18", whether I have Line of Sight to it or not. 

Any that I might need to take or contest to win the game, I can sort out with the Interceptors. 

I can hold all mine and make his uninhabitable!


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Good list and plan Mag. Most clubs I play at won't allow the fort unfortunately so I would probably just put the Purg squad behind a building out of LoS. Am also not a big fan of GK troops... Henchmen will do better taking objectives imo if meched up and given ample cover fire.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Why wouldn't a club allow Forts? It's in the game for goodness sake.

I am currently building a Henchfolk "horde" in Chimera's like you suggest. I think it makes the best all comes list TBH.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

It sounds like Arcane lives in an area of restrictive fucktards in terms of playing the game.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Idk why they wouldn't allow it. The club I was just at yesterday said they might allow allies next tourney... "might" I was like eh... then I "might" play? Lol

No forgeworld, no fortresses, allies sometimes, no double force chart. 

Got second place with my Henchfolk list out of 24 people at this weekends teams tourney. Would have probably gotten 1st if the two squads of Grey Knights I took hadn't gotten blown up by a single Demolisher cannon blast, and the second died to a Helldrake flamer... 2+ to wound, no saves *cry*. But that's why I like Henchmen. They die just as fast but are far cheaper.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Yeh fair enough mate, that's a big reason why I never bother with Tournaments.

Good to see the henchies went well, any chance of a summary/wrap up of your campaign ?


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## Sothot (Jul 22, 2011)

I played against the Fortress once and it was impossible to shift. My own fault for having no str 9 in my list, but I killed 3/40 Marines and I was nearly destroyed. Terrible rolls on my part but you can get a lot of dakka out of it too.


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

Magpie_Oz said:


> The Bastion has a Gun Emplacement the same as the AGL doesn't it?
> 
> The Fort of Redemption has the Emplaced Guns.
> !


Ah it seems you are correct, I was thrown off by the term "four emplaced heavy bolters"


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Ragewind said:


> Ah it seems you are correct, I was thrown off by the term "four emplaced heavy bolters"


Yeh mate why the bloody hell they use Gun Emplacement and Emplaced Gun for such different things is beyond me !


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Arcane said:


> No forgeworld, no fortresses, allies sometimes, no double force


:shok::shok: Bet they restrict certain units too. Nothing against you Arcane but that is crazy. 



Magpie_Oz said:


> Yeh mate why the bloody hell they use Gun Emplacement and Emplaced Gun for such different things is beyond me !


In addition to ambiguous terms we now have implied ambiguous terms and ambiguously implied terms. Yay!


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Yeh mate why the bloody hell they use Gun Emplacement and Emplaced Gun for such different things is beyond me !


Yea it can get confusing, not to mentions the Nid faq says they cannot fire emplaced weapons, and considering there are no rules for emplaced weapons im not sure what they can or can not fire 

Also im sure we have all seen people talking about how vehicles can fire gun emplacments but can two gun emplacments fire each other? I mean they are models with stat lines, so if you place them in b2b then couldnt you bypass the automated fire rules?


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## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

scscofield said:


> Glances remove hull points, flyer crashes and burns.


We have a winner!

Aegis + Quad-gun seems to be the best option as far as I've seen. Highly cost-effective for great anti-aircraft, and a solid line to put all your Dreadnoughts and Tanks behind for juicy 4+ cover saves.


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## Suijin (Aug 11, 2011)

Arcane:
They disallow the Fortress of Redemption but allow flyers??? If I had to pick one to disallow from those 2 it would be the flyers, mostly due to there being very limited weaponry in certain codices to combat flyers, but every? codex has some form of melta/haywire thing to get the FoR.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Ragewind said:


> Yea it can get confusing, not to mentions the Nid faq says they cannot fire emplaced weapons, and considering there are no rules for emplaced weapons im not sure what they can or can not fire


An emplaced gun is an emplaced weapon, I guess they are just covering other aspects for things that are emplaced and not guns?




Ragewind said:


> Also im sure we have all seen people talking about how vehicles can fire gun emplacments but can two gun emplacments fire each other? I mean they are models with stat lines, so if you place them in b2b then couldnt you bypass the automated fire rules?


Gun emplacements don't have BS ?


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Idk, Flint is a fucked up place. It was ranked no. 3 most dangerous in the nation, mostly due to idiots. Saginaw is no 5 most dangerous, was just up there this weekend playing a teams tourney, no Fortress, no Forgeworld, no allies allowed. Lol, there's a lot of dumb rules for playing in the state of Michigan. 

The usual thing you see here are Helldrake and Scythes in doubles or triples, so the quadcannon is pretty much useless. If you find yourself fighting a lot of Ork fighters or Stormtalons then by all means, go with that route. Lascannon seems like the only safe bet to at least kill 1 flyer before you get a ap3 template dropped on your head.


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

Magpie_Oz said:


> An emplaced gun is an emplaced weapon, I guess they are just covering other aspects for things that are emplaced and not guns?
> 
> Gun emplacements don't have BS ?


You say that but straight up raw i am correct.



Magpie_Oz said:


> Gun emplacements don't have BS ?


Hmmmmm don't they have BS 2? Or is that in the auto fire rules?



Arcane said:


> Idk, Flint is a fucked up place. It was ranked no. 3 most dangerous in the nation, mostly due to idiots. Saginaw is no 5 most dangerous, was just up there this weekend playing a teams tourney, no Fortress, no Forgeworld, no allies allowed. Lol, there's a lot of dumb rules for playing in the state of Michigan.
> 
> The usual thing you see here are Helldrake and Scythes in doubles or triples, so the quadcannon is pretty much useless. If you find yourself fighting a lot of Ork fighters or Stormtalons then by all means, go with that route. Lascannon seems like the only safe bet to at least kill 1 flyer before you get a ap3 template dropped on your head.


That place sounds terrible, if you need ad-hoc AA then you need TL weapons. Either through the Prescience power or just standard. Braodsides are great AA especially in a unit of 3, you only need to hit once.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Yeah Rage, I think I may start taking Magpies suggestion of 4 psycannon Purgiation knights with a Techmarine or two and Prescience.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Ragewind said:


> You say that but straight up raw i am correct.


Pg 117 for the Fort States it has "Emplaced Heavy Bolters". So "Emplaced" gun, cannon, Bolter, weapon, sharp stick, firmly worded pamphlette all mean the same thing a weapon of some type that is emplaced. 




Ragewind said:


> Hmmmmm don't they have BS 2? Or is that in the auto fire rules?


Caught by the wording again. An _Emplaced Weapon_ (Pg 96) has BS2 in auto mode. A _Gun Emplacement_ has no BS and it cannot be fired in auto mode.

Even if it did the feedback loop would exist that the Gun Emplacementr is mannign the other Gun Emplacement so there for who is manning whom and if it is manned it isn't BS2 it is the BS of the firer which is -.



Arcane said:


> ... and Prescience.


I'd rather have the Ignores Cover power.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> I'd rather have the Ignores Cover power.


What I usually would do is roll on the chart, see what you get and if it's not ignore cover or you're facing something that the AP isn't going to be effective on (like assault space marines that will be in your face soon so you don't benefit from the range with conversion beamer) then choose to take the Primaris power instead for Prescience.


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## Ragewind (Aug 3, 2008)

Arcane said:


> Yeah Rage, I think I may start taking Magpies suggestion of 4 psycannon Purgiation knights with a Techmarine or two and Prescience.


Aye this is a powerful option, watch out for AP 2 templates. Especially since you will be moving towards the enemy

(cough) D-Cannons, Plasma Cannons (Cough)


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Ragewind said:


> Aye this is a powerful option, watch out for AP 2 templates. Especially since you will be moving towards the enemy
> 
> (cough) D-Cannons, Plasma Cannons (Cough)


The idea with the Purgies is to NOT move. Just stay out of sight somewhere and rain the pain.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> The idea with the Purgies is to NOT move. Just stay out of sight somewhere and rain the pain.


Right, if they stay far away, you punish them with Conversion Beamers. If they get close you punish them with Psycannons. I think ignoring cover would be better against IG, Orcs etc and Prescience would be better against Marines and their 3+ saves.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Arcane said:


> Right, if they stay far away, you punish them with Conversion Beamers. If they get close you punish them with Psycannons. I think ignoring cover would be better against IG, Orcs etc and Prescience would be better against Marines and their 3+ saves.


Yep that's it. My main thought for the Ignores Cover is for the Beamers at range being AP1, so if you can Ignore the 4+ that comes with Astral Aim there will be little left to need to reroll by the time the bad guys get to you.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

I'll just take Cotaez and try and get both 
He makes a great base camp protector anyhow with "I've been expecting you".

Just realized that Astral Aim can work on fortification guns...!


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Arcane said:


> I'll just take Cotaez and try and get both
> He makes a great base camp protector anyhow with "I've been expecting you".
> 
> Just realized that Astral Aim can work on fortification guns...!


The 12" range of IBEY does limit its usefulness somewhat, makes it more of a denial rather than a killer as such. Both powers would be great for sure.

Astral Aim and psybolt too !


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Seems you are right about the psybolt, however I can see that being contested by many opponents. As I read it though, the Knight has the ammo and any gun he shoots which fits the profile gets the bonus.


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