# The Emperor must Die!?



## Final Detonation (Jun 23, 2009)

I had a good talk (like 6 hours during a 5000 point 2v2 game) about some things with my friends and this was our basic conclusion. (WARNING: like always im goin to write a friken novel, i can feel it right now, so please bearwith me) Apparently my friend was talking with someone at a GW store who either knows a lot morethan we do or makes crap up but:

The basic thing is that the Emperor NEEDS to die for humanity to survive. At first one would say that the Astronomicon would fade and the Imperium would disolve into oblivion. Then we started talking about how humanity navigated the galaxy in the first place during the great crusade. The Astronomicon is only necessarry with the presance of Chaos and the warp storm, Chaos whos power was brought back by Horus yadda yadda if you're in the fluff section the rest is old news. 

So we started talking about how god are created and gain power which is by followers and believers. without them chaos gods are powerless and so is the emperor. Due tot he way that gods are created it we assumed that the emperor is now much like the chaos gods in power, but he is trapped within his dieing aging corpse upon the golden throne. With such god-like power why does he need a mortal body? This is where the conspiracy come in. 

If the Emperor died he should be "reborn" into something more powerful which could giude humanity throughout the stars to final victory. So why would we trap him in a body (much like the movie Dogma)? The power-hungry leaders of humanity on terra wish it. If the emperor died and came back to lead humanity, they would lose their authority, and we all know that would be horrible.

We then went on to talk about how the emperor's presance would destroy chaos and how we would be able to push back all enemies and other things and conquer the galaxy, which we obviously are not allowed to do or 40k would not exsit anymore.

So im just curious about what you guys think about this. The emperor being a god is the hardest thing to swallow i think but then again he is a beacon in the warp so how can he not have godly power?


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## Kor Phaeron (Jul 7, 2009)

That's what the Thorian Inquisitors believe. My Daemonhunters Inquisitor is Thorian. Also, check out the Star Child Prophesy...


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## fdshfn (Jun 24, 2009)

sounds like an interesting theory


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## CaptainLoken (May 13, 2009)

I think it rocks!!!!:good:


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## Israfil (Jul 6, 2008)

yep Kor Phaeron is right Star Child, Sensei and Illuminati. there's your conspiracy.


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

Israfil and Kor Phaeron are spot on correct (getting there before me as well). 

This is old conspiracy fluff, and is quite interesting, but you lose interest after you realise that we will never know the answer in 40K.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Im very much a nutter for fluff, so appologies in advance for pulling your post appart.



Final Detonation said:


> At first one would say that the Astronomicon would fade and the Imperium would disolve into oblivion.


_The psykers who power the Astronomican are recruited into the organization through the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. They are initiated into the Adeptus Astronomica as Acolytes, and taught how to use their powers, philosophy, the meaning of their lives, and they learn the Lore of the Astronomican. Some achieve a mystic state, gaining the status of Chosen. It is these Chosen who are eventually called to serve in the Chamber of the Astronomican. Here they fuel the Astronomican beacon with their psychic energies; as their powers are drained the Chosen slowly fade and die. This psychic power is directed by the mind of the Emperor across about 50 thousand light years of the galaxy. Because Terra is situated in the galactic west, the Astronomican does not cover the extreme eastern part of the galaxy. Warp travel beyond the Astronomican's reach is severely limited - this creates the effective borders of the Imperium._ 

Sorry - I copied and pasted that bit - basically, its a good possiblity like all of the imperium, that this is also a 'lie'. The same as they go through rites to prepare their wargear and they think of it as paying tribute to the guns machine spirit - whereas infact, it is just normal maintenance.
In the case of the astronomican its a very good chance that the emperor isnt even involved, but that the chosen of the astronomicon are infact all that is needed.




> Then we started talking about how humanity navigated the galaxy in the first place during the great crusade.


Look at how the tau navigate the galaxy - short hops over short light distances, barely even grazing into the warp - that is how humanity first navigated the warp.



> If the Emperor died he should be "reborn" into something more powerful which could giude humanity throughout the stars to final victory. So why would we trap him in a body (much like the movie Dogma)? The power-hungry leaders of humanity on terra wish it. If the emperor died and came back to lead humanity, they would lose their authority, and we all know that would be horrible.


 
The problem is this - the 'gods' are not what they think they are, but what WE think they are. Imagine the warp as an endless pool of emotions and wants and desires. create a race that craves sex/perfection/orgies etc etc - those emotions combine until eventually a god is born (in this case, slaanesh).
Slaanesh didnt 'create' the eldars wants and desires - their wants and desires created him.

Thus - if we look at the emperor - he is a being 'barely' alive on the golden throne - im sure hes barely sane anymore, but when he was sane he was a being with his own wants and desires and goals.
When he dies - that 'man' will not become a god - the Church of the emperor does not believe in 'him' they believe in a repressive, vengeful and closeminded bringer of death. So when the emperor finally dies, a church set up to venerate him, will infact create a chaos god with none of his good points.



> We then went on to talk about how the emperor's presance would destroy chaos and how we would be able to push back all enemies and other things and conquer the galaxy, which we obviously are not allowed to do or 40k would not exsit anymore.


Well, im not sure it could. As I said, the gods are formed from our beliefs. Their power grows and shinks by the mortals that believe in them. Look at the eldar gods - terrifyingly powerful, until the eldar 'fell' at which point - their worship was stilted and twisted and no longer represented their gods. A few eldar still believed in them, but with the birth of slaanesh that belief ended and the gods were destroyed.
The birth of a true god emperor would only destroy the other chaos gods if he wiped out all the other devotees of those gods. Sure the god emperor would be far and away the most powerful chaos god, but he wouldnt be able to destroy the other gods entirely.



> So im just curious about what you guys think about this. The emperor being a god is the hardest thing to swallow i think but then again he is a beacon in the warp so how can he not have godly power?


But hes not a beacon in the warp - the choir of the astronomincon is the beacon - the emperor mearly guides it (A bit like a ships captain isnt the only member of the crew - sure he guides the ship, but he needs people to run the rest of it)


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Or check out what the official fluff says (Chaos Daemons codex) which is that if the Emperor dies Chaos wins, and engulfs the galaxy and enslaves mankind  the whole point of 40k is that it is a grimdark setting, one of despair for humanity, one where there is little or no hope, if it was a given that the Emperor would be reborn and kill all humanitys enemies - it wouldn't be grimdark!

Happy Thoughts :biggrin:



Final Detonation said:


> Then we started talking about how humanity navigated the galaxy in the first place during the great crusade.


The Astronomican was around during the Great Crusade (Prior to the Emperor's ascension), it was powered by unknown means, the knowledge/methods with which the Emperor created/powered it were lost during the Heresy so the Emperor was forced to Ascend onto the Throne (To power the Astronomican and seal the Imperial Webway gate)



Final Detonation said:


> So we started talking about how gods are created and gain power which is by followers and believers. without them chaos gods are powerless and so is the emperor. Due tot he way that gods are created it we assumed that the emperor is now much like the chaos gods in power, but he is trapped within his dieing aging corpse upon the golden throne. With such god-like power why does he need a mortal body? This is where the conspiracy come in.


This is how Warp Beings gain power, not gods. (although some warp beings can be described as 'gods') - How is the Emperor powerless without 'followers/believers'? he was around for thousands of years with no followers or believers. Dont forget that the Emperor is not a Warp Being, he is a Man, albeit an extremley powerful psyker (therefore with a strong warp presence) but not a warp being. 

His powers are nothing like the powers of the Chaos Gods. He uses his immense psychic abilities to protect humanity from the worst depridations of Chaos, his existence is one of constant agony as he holds back the tide of Chaos from swamping the galaxy. Where as the Chaos Gods power is different as they are soley warp beings.



Final Detonation said:


> If the Emperor died he should be "reborn" into something more powerful which could giude humanity throughout the stars to final victory. So why would we trap him in a body (much like the movie Dogma)? The power-hungry leaders of humanity on terra wish it. If the emperor died and came back to lead humanity, they would lose their authority, and we all know that would be horrible.


Why would he necessarily be reborn? Why wouldnt he just die, or his soul consumed by Chaos? Also Dont forget that the Emperor himself ordered Rogal Dorn and his followers to connect him to the throne, he made the decision because it was vital for the survival of the Imperium.



Final Detonation said:


> We then went on to talk about how the emperor's presance would destroy chaos and how we would be able to push back all enemies and other things and conquer the galaxy, which we obviously are not allowed to do or 40k would not exsit anymore.


How would his mere presence destroy Chaos? the only thing that can destroy Chaos is by wiping out ALL mortals.



Final Detonation said:


> So im just curious about what you guys think about this. The emperor being a god is the hardest thing to swallow i think but then again he is a beacon in the warp so how can he not have godly power?


He has become a god for all intents and purposes; he is worshipped by trillions etc. But let us not forget that he is NOT a warp being but a human with an immensley strong warp presence. The Chaos Gods sent a few visions to Horus and by doing so basically brought down the entire Imperium and crushed the Emperor.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

I'm not sure if the Emperor is human anymore. Anyone read Ian Watson's books? I can't remember which book had that scene, but on one occasion, the inquisitor manages to meet the Emperor face to face... an interesting scene indeed. There the Emperor finds out of a plot (!) that he started in the first place but didn't know about (!). He himself (!) realizes (!) that he, the Emperor, is capable of doing something without knowing about it (!). I think he even said that it has to do with him having consumed so many souls and that the millennia-long agony he suffered also fragmented his soul, which was already in pieces if you consider that the Emperor is basically the unison of shaman from back then. 

There are so many ways of exploiting this one idea that it scares me. For example, his soul shatters into equal bits and fly off to the living Primarchs who become demigods and rule over decent bits of the Imperium. Or, because he obviously has more believers than the Chaos Gods, he'll split into a whole Pantheon of gods, each representing one of his aspects. This way the good guys would have their own Chaos Gods, in a wierd way.

Now looking at it from the Chaos Gods' perspective, his death wouldn't be all that welcome because it would disrupt the Great Game, which is about not winning it. Chaos cannot exist without humans, who would turn into Daemons in the long run if the galaxy were swallowed by Chaos. Therefore, it would be detrimental for Chaos to swoop in on the occasion of the Emperor's death. His existence is a great excuse for them not dominating the material world. Because if they really-really wanted to they would have already. And thats not the Chaos fanboy speaking, even though it does make my Chaos-ego burst.  It is written in the Daemon Codex that the Chaos Gods don't meddle into the affairs of mortal too much because they're 99.99% occupied with their war in the Warp, and thus cannot risk turning their attention and energies away from it, which is necessary for them to deliberately open a warp rift.

The point is, to my mind and from a fluffy perspective (meaning that I'm not going to mention the relationship between 40K events and GW ), should the Emperor die (meaning that his corporeal form ceases to function), the faith "spent" on him would, in one way or another, give birth to a god or perhaps a multitude of gods that would replace him. 

What I consider a proof for the Emperor ascending to hardcore godhood are the Acts of Faith of the Sisters of Battle, and that nasty warp storm he is rumored to have created. I'm sure both could be reduced to mere "hints", but I consider them solid enough to take them seriously.

I'm sure that by now some of you thought of the surviving Primarchs, who are prophecised to return someday. With the death of the Emperor drawing nearer by the second, it seems that it is about time for them to show/wake up. 

Another interesting bit are the events of the world around the Imperium. Nearly every race and faction has doubled its activity, and even Abaddon managed to gain some ground in the Cadian Gate, which is a big deal if you consider how many times he failed thus far.  

The last thing I want to mention is that the Imperium, honestly speaking, was superior in military power than any other single faction or race. Also, the whole marketing around the 40K universe have always revolved around _threat_. Now, with tell-tale signs pointing towards an even darker future, one can logically conclude that it is high time for this threat to elevate to _loss_. The Imperium loses considerable territories by the time order is restored after the death of the Emperor, and the balance of power shifts into a fragile equilibrium, since the Imperium will no longer be the dominant power on the board, and factions that have rarely met each other thus far (say, Chaos and the Tyranids) will wage new wars on their borders.

Thats my two cents on the next millennium.


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## Eliphas (Jun 23, 2009)

Khorothis, I agree with you on the no doubt insaity that will take place after the Emperor finally kicks it. At the moment, the Imperium is far to big and powerful to destroy entirely, but, if the Emperor were to die, and the Imperium fractured, a huge buffer that keeps the other races somewhat protected from forces like the Necrons and Tyranids will be gone. I have no doubt that the other races will be devastated from the Tyranids, and for the first time, we may finally see a war between the crons and nids. Which I have long waited for.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Although the imperium had shattered - it wouldnt mean instant death for the individual worlds - thus the tyranids would still be attacking the worlds - they dont care who owns them, only that they have bio mass on them.

Thus the next time the nids came in they would cut right through the worlds of the former imperium - what happend next is anyones guess - would they wipe out 90% of the worlds and the move on like locust? Settle?

But it wouldnt immedately mean crons vs nids - there are far too many jucy targets for the nids before they ever touched the barren tomb worlds.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Eliphas said:


> Khorothis, I agree with you on the no doubt insaity that will take place after the Emperor finally kicks it. At the moment, the Imperium is far to big and powerful to destroy entirely, but, if the Emperor were to die, and the Imperium fractured, a huge buffer that keeps the other races somewhat protected from forces like the Necrons and Tyranids will be gone. I have no doubt that the other races will be devastated from the Tyranids, and for the first time, we may finally see a war between the crons and nids. Which I have long waited for.


I think I have said something like that, though with different words.



Maidel said:


> Although the imperium had shattered - it wouldnt mean instant death for the individual worlds - thus the tyranids would still be attacking the worlds - they dont care who owns them, only that they have bio mass on them.
> 
> Thus the next time the nids came in they would cut right through the worlds of the former imperium - what happend next is anyones guess - would they wipe out 90% of the worlds and the move on like locust? Settle?
> 
> But it wouldnt immedately mean crons vs nids - there are far too many jucy targets for the nids before they ever touched the barren tomb worlds.


I think the C'tan would be pissed by the Tyranids. They're not only the most living creatures and perhaps their exact counterpart (genetic xenophobes versus genetic survivors), but they have the oddest Warp signature in the galaxy. Also, if you can take the BRB's maps seriously, then certain Tyranid Hive Fleets are about to bump into at least two aggressive Tomb Worlds and two active ones. Which sucks really because the Necron have the most lethal spacecraft in the galaxy (as far as I know = Lexicanum lol) and can easily harass bypassing fleets of Tyranids, who would avoid them because they're rather lacking in biomass, but the Necrons' violent nature towards life would ultimately draw these two factions into large-scale war.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Thus - if we look at the emperor - he is a being 'barely' alive on the golden throne - im sure hes barely sane anymore, but when he was sane he was a being with his own wants and desires and goals.
> When he dies - that 'man' will not become a god - the Church of the emperor does not believe in 'him' they believe in a repressive, vengeful and closeminded bringer of death. So when the emperor finally dies, a church set up to venerate him, will infact create a chaos god with none of his good points.


This part I do not agree with. The only REAL difference I see from what the emp. stood for before the heresy and his confinement to the Throne is the spiritualism... and perhaps that now man is aware of Chaos and its dangers.

The emp sanctioned the destruction of ALL xenos. He was a real stickler for "compliance" with human worlds as well. Either you re-unite with humanity or die. I fail to see the huge difference between than and now in 40k.

If you are referring to things like the inquisition, well maybe if there were more of that kind of thing around there would not have been a Horus Heresy. The real spanish inquisition went after make believe threats and women with warts on their noses. Daemons and Chaos are real in this Galaxy and ignoring their threat/existance is what led to the heresy in the first place.

So, stripping all that away... there really is no difference other than the change from a secular "no god" religion (which was a lie, gods do exist in this galaxy) to one where the emperor is god.

The emperor being a chaos god? Ya, but he would be what his followers make him to be. I personaly would not be suprised if the emperor becomes a Malal type God.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Zooey72 said:


> This part I do not agree with. The only REAL difference I see from what the emp. stood for before the heresy and his confinement to the Throne is the spiritualism... and perhaps that now man is aware of Chaos and its dangers.
> 
> The emp sanctioned the destruction of ALL xenos. He was a real stickler for "compliance" with human worlds as well. Either you re-unite with humanity or die. I fail to see the huge difference between than and now in 40k.


I dont disagree with most of that - but there are two HUGE differences between the emperor before and after that make a massive difference.

1) The emperor was always in search of knowledge - he was pushing back the boundaries of science (creating the primarches) and he was trying to bring humanity into a new world that did not require warp travel and the dangers inherit with that (the webway portal on earth) - since his near death the imperium is knowledge repressive - anythin new is EVILLLLLLL! and cannot be allowed (it took something like 400 years for the mechanicus to accept the land raider crusader - and in the end it was only accepted because half the marine chapters were already using it! So the emperor was he was would have been a god of knowledge and enlightnment - now he would be a god of repression and stagnation.
As for 'reunite or die' it wasnt a matter of 'do it my way because I say so' which it is now, he knew the horrors of chaos and what humanity could do to itself, so he was trying to reunite mankind with that in mind. Imagine this senario - you know that unless everyone wears pink tomorrow the world will end - now I assume you are a reasonable man, not fond of random violence and killing - but if you saw people NOT wearing pink tomorrow you would probably kill them if they didnt comply. The emperor KNEW that non compliance could lead to disaster (just look at the eldar) therefore he knew it was comply or die for the good of the species.

2) HE DIDNT WANT PEOPLE TO WORSHIP HIM - I cant stress this enough - he forbade and entire legion from worshiping him because he knew it would only lead to a misplaced warp image of him that would not be him. This 'minor' difference is entirely vital when trying to understand what he was doing - he was trying to make a fully secular society because he knew that worship of one god was easlily replaced with the worship of a different god - and look where the imperium is now....



> So, stripping all that away... there really is no difference other than the change from a secular "no god" religion (which was a lie, gods do exist in this galaxy) to one where the emperor is god.


At but thats a vital point you got wrong there. The gods simply would not exist if they werent believed in - our belief its what gives them shape and form - without it, they simply would not exist - the emperor knew this and told his 'children' a white lie - which would have been truth if he'd manged to complete his crusade.


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## kaled (Jun 24, 2008)

Maidel said:


> The gods simply would not exist if they werent believed in - our belief its what gives them shape and form - without it, they simply would not exist - the emperor knew this and told his 'children' a white lie - which would have been truth if he'd manged to complete his crusade.


Unfortunately, if your theory is correct, the Emperor's white lie was wrong even if he did believe it. The Chaos gods are fed by emotion rather than belief. Tzeentch would still exist as long as people desire change, whether they believe in Tzeentch is irrelevant. In the 41st millenium the Chaos gods grow strong off the emotions of humanity, yet only a tiny proportion have even heard of the existence of Chaos, nevermind worship the Chaos gods.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

@Maidel

In the end it doesn't really what he intended to do, but what he ended up doing, and perhaps being. He is no longer the same person he was when Horus struck him down. I could list lots of events that might have had a permanent impact on his personality, but the end result remains the same: we have a mentally fragmented Emperor on the verge of death and/or godhood with a whole church who already consider him a god.


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## Zooey72 (Mar 25, 2008)

Maidel said:


> 1) The emperor was always in search of knowledge - he was pushing back the boundaries of science (creating the primarches) and he was trying to bring humanity into a new world that did not require warp travel and the dangers inherit with that (the webway portal on earth) - since his near death the imperium is knowledge repressive - anythin new is EVILLLLLLL! and cannot be allowed (it took something like 400 years for the mechanicus to accept the land raider crusader - and in the end it was only accepted because half the marine chapters were already using it! So the emperor was he was would have been a god of knowledge and enlightnment - now he would be a god of repression and stagnation.
> As for 'reunite or die' it wasnt a matter of 'do it my way because I say so' which it is now, he knew the horrors of chaos and what humanity could do to itself, so he was trying to reunite mankind with that in mind. Imagine this senario - you know that unless everyone wears pink tomorrow the world will end - now I assume you are a reasonable man, not fond of random violence and killing - but if you saw people NOT wearing pink tomorrow you would probably kill them if they didnt comply. The emperor KNEW that non compliance could lead to disaster (just look at the eldar) therefore he knew it was comply or die for the good of the species.
> 
> 2) HE DIDNT WANT PEOPLE TO WORSHIP HIM - I cant stress this enough - he forbade and entire legion from worshiping him because he knew it would only lead to a misplaced warp image of him that would not be him. This 'minor' difference is entirely vital when trying to understand what he was doing - he was trying to make a fully secular society because he knew that worship of one god was easlily replaced with the worship of a different god - and look where the imperium is now....


To the first part, not true. If you have read mechanarium (sp?) the main char was an idiot sevant as far as technology goes and she had to taken away or they would have killed her. Why, because she advanced existing tech. Also, if you think about it the Emperor has been around at least 5k years and man had greater tech before the great Crusade. Why didn't the emperor allow his people access to that tech? He was around when it was created, I refuse to believe "he forgot" how to make it. Why withold that tech? I can't remember the name of the machine, but one of those machines Horus used to get the Mechanarium on his side. Now the chaos tech that was stored under Mars I can understand. But that doesn't explain the rest of it.

He made a big deal about people not worshipping him - granted. But I am not so sure he really meant it. Where does Keeler get her power? And I agree with the above poster who says worship is not nec. You think an orc knows who Khorne is, prob not, but they do feed to Khorne's existance.


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## Samir_Duran (Apr 6, 2009)

I heard some theories what will happen when the emperor dies...

One is that Marneus Calgar will take his place on the Golden Throne to hold of the gates of Chaos.

Other one is that Roboute Guiliman will in FACT regenerate his wounded body and take Emperor's place in the way the Emperor did when he came to power. I remember that in the COdex-Space Marine it was hinted, that his body i supposedly regenerating even when it's buriend in the static field suspension, like it is told, the Emperor's body is too.

I think, that the empire will regress somewhat, but will not fall apart. Too many heroics are out there to keep at least some part of it together. People like forementioned Calgar, Commissar Yarick, other guys too.


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## Ardias26 (Sep 26, 2008)

remember what happened to the eldar...if he were to die he might end up snacking on most of humanity to fuel his 'birth'..so its probably not a good idea for him to die


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## LiamMeowFace (Jan 18, 2009)

The Sensei and the Illuminati
The earliest Sensei background describes them as the literal sons of the Emperor fathered over his vast lifetime. The Sensei are also a vital part of the Illuminati's plan to save humanity through the rejuvenation of the Emperor. The Illuminati gather the Sensei and protect them from the Inquisition, preparing them for "the final war with Chaos". In truth however the Illuminati intend to sacrifice to the Emperor his sons, in the same way many millions of psykers have already been sacrificed to feed the Emperor. All of the remaining Sensei are to be offered to the Emperor as a sacrifice at the moment his will finally breaks. The Emperor will be rejuvenated, and reborn as the Sensei-Emperor to again lead his race in person. 

A few of the Sensei are said to turn to Chaos, becoming the Grey Sensei. 

Taken from lexicanum sounds like a plan ?


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak (Dec 23, 2008)

if he becomes a god then he can't personally lead people can he???

if it was possible the chaos gods would have surely destroyed the universe long ago by taking a more 'mortal' form...

i mean if they could alight to the battle field the destruction...but they instead send daemons to represent them...

if the emperor is in battle it will be a type of warp-based representative not him in person


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## Innsmouth (Mar 16, 2009)

I think there was a Black Library book about this. Something to do with "Hydra"?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Samir_Duran said:


> I heard some theories what will happen when the emperor dies...
> 
> One is that Marneus Calgar will take his place on the Golden Throne to hold of the gates of Chaos.
> 
> ...


You seem ignorant to a lot of established 40k Fluff. Firstly Read the Chaos Daemons Codex, after the Emperor there is literally no Imperium. 

Secondly Guilliman could no take the Emperors place on the Golden Throne, he is no Psyker and could not hold the Imperial Webway gate closed (The only other capable of holding the Imperial Webway closed for any prolonged period of time would be Magnus, who the Emperor actually intended to put on the Golden Throne) - aswell as that he is frozen in statis at the point of death. To my knowledge it is pilgrims who state that his wound is slowly healing, the human mind sees what it wants to see.

Do you honestly think mere individuals like Yarrick could hold the Imperium together after the Emperors death?


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## High Marshall Mendark (Jan 25, 2009)

If Chaos Gods gain power from beliefs (khorne by anger, Tzeench by change, Nurgle (dunno what ud have to believe in) and slaanesh by pleasure) couldn't the emperor if he ascended into warp form be humanity's and everything else's belief of protection and safety? Or if you are feeling especially brave, humanity's victory? 

Also I don't believe that a single Primarch could be a replacement for the emperor. It would have to be a union of all the primarchs (incl. the chaos ones) because, aren't they knida like representations of the emperor in mortal form? Like magnus is the emperors psyker side, rogal his defensive and loyal side and smurfie his perfection side?

Next, if gods are powered by belief (gork and mork), don't the orks also kinda follow Him? The orks believe that the emperor is humanities Waaagh! god that single handedly is almost rivals the powers of Gork and Mork (almost) and that he represents what they value, just in 'umie form?

All in all, if the big guy does die, there will be one hell uv a brawl!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

High Marshall Mendark said:


> If Chaos Gods gain power from beliefs (khorne by anger, Tzeench by change, Nurgle (dunno what ud have to believe in) and slaanesh by pleasure)


They dont, they gain power from concentrations of emotions (or actions which produce an abundence of certain emotions). For example a large war will involve and produce lots of people feeling Hate and Anger (which will empower Khorne), it is in Khorne's interest therefore to escalate the war (and even to cause and start new wars), thereby creating more anger, rage and hate which in turn further empowers him.

It is not belief which creates and sustains Warp Beings/Gods, it is emotions. Belief may spawn emotions (For example belief in the Emperor may produce Hope, which will empower Tzeentch. It may also produce Anger at those who have betrayed the Emperor, which will empower Khorne etc. Emotions effect the warp in the sense that they can create/sustain Warp powers, but that does not mean that emotions can empower mortals/immortals from the material realm, like the Emperor) but that is a different matter.



High Marshall Mendark said:


> couldn't the emperor if he ascended into warp form be humanity's and everything else's belief of protection and safety? Or if you are feeling especially brave, humanity's victory?


As i said its not belief that forms or sustains warp beings its emotions, (And the need for protection or safety is not an emotion). Aside from this, the Emperor is not a warp being. He has a strong warp presence because he is an amazingly powerful psyker but is not a being from the warp. Therefore it is logical to conclude that he cannot be empowered by belief or emotion. (that however does not stop his soul already being powerful enough, or at least certain elements of the Star Child theory being true) 




High Marshall Mendark said:


> Also I don't believe that a single Primarch could be a replacement for the emperor. It would have to be a union of all the primarchs (incl. the chaos ones) because, aren't they knida like representations of the emperor in mortal form? Like magnus is the emperors psyker side, rogal his defensive and loyal side and smurfie his perfection side?


There could be no replacement for the Emperor. Not even all the Primarchs (which is impossible considering some are now Daemons and others are dead). No Emperor = No Imperium = Humanity enslaved to Chaos. Simple!

Yes it has been suggested that each Primarch represents a certain aspect of the Emperor or Humanity. Although this is not a given. Theres a problem however which is that several primarchs do not automatically slot into certain categories. Where would Ferrus slot in? Alpharius Omegon? Perturabo? Curze? Vulkan? Corax? Even Horus? (and also it would be Fulgrim that would represent the strive for perfection not Guilliman the Usurper!)



High Marshall Mendark said:


> Next, if gods are powered by belief (gork and mork), don't the orks also kinda follow Him? The orks believe that the emperor is humanities Waaagh! god that single handedly is almost rivals the powers of Gork and Mork (almost) and that he represents what they value, just in 'umie form?


How exactly does the Emperor represent what Orks value? 

:good:


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

The plain, and cynical answer from good old Luke is as follows. If the emperor died he would probably become a chaos god while sustaining some of his attributes (The only god created more or less from one centralized will), but he would still personify every negative aspects of those that get absorbed into his warp shadow. Remember that all the souls of the emperors enemies would affect what a chaos emperor would be like. Still the idea of the emperor waging eternal war against the other gods in a eternal struggle for the warp is one of the most badass things EVER!. I can see it now... the restored emperor sitting atop his solid gold palace sitting beside him his loyal sons, now reborn as what could only be described as titan class space marines. Can you not see the majesty that would be the eternal march of his legions into the other gods realms!

Funny side note: I guess his lesser daemons would be spooky ass ghost marines with flaming wings.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

LukeValantine said:


> The plain, and cynical answer from good old Luke is as follows. If the emperor died he would probably become a chaos god while sustaining some of his attributes (The only god created more or less from one centralized will), but he would still personify every negative aspects of those that get absorbed into his warp shadow. Remember that all the souls of the emperors enemies would affect what a chaos emperor would be like. Still the idea of the emperor waging eternal war against the other gods in a eternal struggle for the warp is one of the most badass things EVER!. I can see it now... the restored emperor sitting atop his solid gold palace sitting beside him his loyal sons, now reborn as what could only be described as titan class space marines. Can you not see the majesty that would be the eternal march of his legions into the other gods realms!
> 
> Funny side note: I guess his lesser daemons would be spooky ass ghost marines with flaming wings.


Please enlighten me as to why this would 'probably' happen?



LukeValantine said:


> Still the idea of the emperor waging eternal war against the other gods in a eternal struggle for the warp is one of the most badass things EVER!.


This already happens (just without the direct involvement of the Emperor), ever heard of the Great Game? (Link) :good:


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## Sanguine1 (May 9, 2009)

Hmm... So if the chaos gods are in a constant struggle for dominance over the warp, but if one wins the warp becomes still then suppose this:

First, we all know the emperor is going to die eventually because he is "mortal" no matter how much we loyalists don't want to accept it. But once he dies, I have seen some theories of him being reborn as a chaos god. If he is reborn in fact would he not also become a part of the great game? And if he did would he not remember his past life as the emperor, because once he dies and is reborn from the emotions of the humans who seek protection and guidance he should be whole again in theory (or I atleast I hope so b/c a chaos god which is hooked up to an imaginary life support system sounds kinda dumb).

So once he joined the great game if it was possible for the chaos gods to destroy him wouldn't that fuck the warp up royaly? 

And on the inverse couldn't he somehow lead those loyalists he has into the warp to conquer it and sacrifice himself in turn for the good of man. (by loyalists I mean Russ and Guilliman, maybe even Sanguinius but not the Lion b/c he's a ***.)


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## Samir_Duran (Apr 6, 2009)

One problem... IF Emperor is reborn as a CHaos God, then to Marines and all of the guys in the Imperial Cult he would be then a thing of the highest profanation... Marines, Guard, Sorotitas, their most hated enemies are Chaos, cuz they're mostly just heretics. I Think, that emperor would be reborn as such, but being completaly warped out. I mean, Emperor wanted peace and loving ( i know how it sounds) cuz he realised that negative human emotions feed the chaos. Meantime, when he's on the golden Throne, the Adeptus Terra made the rulling faith a completaly reverse thing of his philosophy.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Sanguine1 said:


> Hmm... So if the chaos gods are in a constant struggle for dominance over the warp, but if one wins the warp becomes still then suppose this:


Although that is what would happen if the Great Game was ever won, it is impossible to win the Great Game. (Sounds illogical, but i suggest reading the Chaos Daemons codex, lots of great stuff in there, and you can pick it up real cheap of Ebay!)



Sanguine1 said:


> First, we all know the emperor is going to die eventually because he is "mortal" no matter how much we loyalists don't want to accept it. But once he dies, I have seen some theories of him being reborn as a chaos god.


Well it wouldnt be a 'Chaos God' as such, as he wasnt born of the warp and isnt a warp being. 



Sanguine1 said:


> If he is reborn in fact would he not also become a part of the great game? And if he did would he not remember his past life as the emperor, because once he dies and is reborn from the emotions of the humans who seek protection and guidance he should be whole again in theory (or I atleast I hope so b/c a chaos god which is hooked up to an imaginary life support system sounds kinda dumb).


The argument of him being reborn in the warp is the Star Child Theory. You have to differentiate the would-be nature of the Star Child from the current nature of the Chaos Gods. The Star Child is essentially part of the soul of the Emperor within the Warp (Described as like a small child in a reed boat adrift in the raging storm of the warp), and it has been suggested that when the Emperor fully perishes, the Star Child will enable him to be reborn whole within the warp, although to what extents or purposes is unknown. 

The Star Child/Reborn Emperor I would argue would not be empowered by any emotions (like the current Warp Gods), how could he be empowered by any emotions? There arn't any emotions left in abundence which would/could empower him, (the most prominent emotions are already covered by the Warp Gods). But would be as powerful and influential within the warp as the Emperor's soul was/is. 

Yes potentially he would become part of the Great Game, seeing as though the Great Game is just the Wars within the Warp between the Chaos Gods. although it can be argued that the rules would then change drastically. Depending on the nature/influence/power of the Star Child, the Great Game would be altered. The Chaos Gods would happily ally if the Star Child was any threat, and i doubt that the Star Child could threaten beings whose power source is next to infinite whilst mortal races still endure in the material realm.



Sanguine1 said:


> So once he joined the great game if it was possible for the chaos gods to destroy him wouldn't that fuck the warp up royaly?


No. Currently if a Chaos Power is eliminated the Warp would become calm and Chaos would be extremley weakened, as it would upset the balance in the warp. If the Star Child joined in the Great Game if wouldnt have the same effect as he is not currently part of that balance. Without the Star Child/Emperor, the Warp could potentially spill into real-space and over-lap the entire galaxy, furthering the influence of Chaos, and result in Chaos essentially 'winning'.



Sanguine1 said:


> And on the inverse couldn't he somehow lead those loyalists he has into the warp to conquer it and sacrifice himself in turn for the good of man. (by loyalists I mean Russ and Guilliman, maybe even Sanguinius but not the Lion b/c he's a ***.)


Firstly leading physical beings into the Warp is basically suicide. The Eye of Terror is a gateway to the warp if you will, Mortals who cannot even slightly comprehend the warp will go utterly insane and fall prey to the infinite horrors that await within its boundaries. 

Also how could one conquer the Warp? It is not a place you can enter, kill everything, and plant your flag, dont make the mistake of contrasting it to the Material Realm.

How exactly would he, and to purpose would he sacrifice himself for the good of man?


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## BLvice (Mar 20, 2009)

Think of it this way, the sheer zealotry and devotion to the emperor throughout the Imperium is quite remarkable. Who is to say that this tidal wave of persistent emotions hasn't been persistently building up in the warp. 

In fact, if you look at the birth of Slannesh, it happened over time. Centuries, even millennia, of dark practices culminated in its birth. However, it was not a sentient being, recognized by the other chaos gods, until a cataclysmic event in which the galaxy was dramatically altered. 

This being said, if you look at the sheer abundance of emotions and actions throughout the Imperium, all rooted in devotion for the emperor, there is a possibility that it has all been growing into a collective presence within the warp. Think of how those emotions would amplify should the emperor die. Such an amazing, and cataclysmic event will invariably yield results in one way or another, possibly a new and incredibly powerful warp presence. Now, who's to say thats a good thing?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

BLvice said:


> Think of it this way, the sheer zealotry and devotion to the emperor throughout the Imperium is quite remarkable. Who is to say that this tidal wave of persistent emotions hasn't been persistently building up in the warp.
> 
> In fact, if you look at the birth of Slannesh, it happened over time. Centuries, even millennia, of dark practices culminated in its birth. However, it was not a sentient being, recognized by the other chaos gods, until a cataclysmic event in which the galaxy was dramatically altered.
> 
> This being said, if you look at the sheer abundance of emotions and actions throughout the Imperium, all rooted in devotion for the emperor, there is a possibility that it has all been growing into a collective presence within the warp. Think of how those emotions would amplify should the emperor die. Such an amazing, and cataclysmic event will invariably yield results in one way or another, possibly a new and incredibly powerful warp presence. Now, who's to say thats a good thing?


Indeed that is a relavent argument. However one could also argue that emotion is emotion. Regardless of in what way it is felt, used or directed, it is still emotion. For example Khorne is the God of Anger, Rage and Hatred. Any Anger, Rage or Hatred should empower him regardless of how, or in what way the said Anger, Rage or Hatred is felt. (Otherwise the Chaos Gods wouldn't have formed in the first place)
If your suggestion was correct It would also mean that the Warp could differentiate between the different ways and purposes in which emotions were felt, and 'distribute' them accordingly. Which is unlikey.

If what you suggested was correct, then only extreme anger, rage or bloodthirst would empower Khorne (Or maybe even just Bloodletting done in his name). Which i dont believe is the case (seeing as the Chaos Daemons codex states that aslong as a single mortal lies Tzeentch will endure, which means although the liar does not worship or intend to empower Tzeentch he still does), as all sources just state that anger and rage empower Khorne. (not anger in the extreme).

So if all Anger empowers Khorne, then any Anger channelled via worship or belief in the Emperor should also empower Khorne. (Also Remember that it is emotions that manifest within the Warp, not zealotry or blind devotion!)
- Contrast what i have said about Khorne to the Emperor. If any Anger felt empowers Khorne, then any emotion felt via or through worship or devotion to the Emperor will also feed Khorne (or the other Respective Chaos God), not the Emperor. (Especially considering the Emperor is an extremley powerful man, not a warp entity.)

I think the most logical way in which the Emperor would be empowered if he was reborn through the Star Child would be either by the power of his own Soul manifested as the Star Child or by the Souls of his devoted worshippers. (Similar to the way in which the souls of Chaos Worshippers when they die get absorbed by the Chaos Gods - Source: Chaos Marines codex)


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## BLvice (Mar 20, 2009)

You make very good points throughout your argument. There are so many aspects of the argument however, that all but the star child conspiracy contradict themselves one way or another. I personally think hes a rotting corpse that wont re-manifest itself. 

Interesting side note i was just thinking about, however. If the emperor was to be reincarnated and he somehow acted as a conduit for the souls of those who died in his name, he could effectively hinder the growth or sustenance of the chaos gods. It is not unlike eldar infinity circuits except they are retained and focused via the emperor's immense psychic power. It impossible but it would be epic.


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