# Gaunts Ghosts *Spoilers*



## Durant (Aug 24, 2011)

I have just caught up with Dan Abnett' Gaunts Ghosts books and found after finishing Blood Pact, a little disappointed in the direction that they have gone.

The Founding and The Saint series were great books, a little repetitive (if you have a good eye you can even spot "copy and paste" paragraphs, which were easily forgiven because I found myself in a really gripping read.

Then Traitor General happened.

I see Dan Abnett’s writing as visually immersive, you can really see in your mind what is happening and I will admit a lot of his action scenes to me are second to none.

But his plots have became predictable, the inner circle during and after TG became invulnerable. Two things really stuck out and signalled the decline in his stories to me, the Chaos Marines incident, and the whole Gereon mission.

If you look at how the chaos dreadnaught kicked ass in Sabbat Martyr that is a true representation of the destructive and awesome firepower of not only a dreadnaught, but of a chaos unit as it obliterates a room, kills scores of characters (I will submit none of the Tanith die) but it was really well done.

When a squad of 5 chaos marines are introduced in Traitor General, I got a feeling of foreboding and was in great anticipation as to who was going to die, these are chaos space marines, they are super soldiers, and someone is going to die...

The whole squad gets killed by a handful of IG and some natives with darts. Total anti climax

WTF.

Letting this go and continuing reading I do not know if it was my own artistic license or the way it was written but I got the impression (and was hoping for it as a refreshing change) that the mission would fail, that Strumm would get away and become a new threat in the sector, that some of the Gereon 6 would die and get stranded until the next book. But Dan Abnett took the easy route out, Strumm died (did not believe his exit scene one bit, it was unrealistic and out of character for the weasel disgraced general) and all the Tanith lived.

The following books were downhill from then on, I don’t know if it was because TG demoralised me or because the focus of the Lost/Blood Pact went from full scale IG v traitor IG battlefields to Sharpe in space type storylines.

Wondering if anyone else found the same?


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## Dermon Caffran (Jul 20, 2010)

Durant said:


> Then Traitor General happened. What i loved it, although was more enjoyable second time round...
> 
> I see Dan Abnett’s writing as visually immersive, you can really see in your mind what is happening and I will admit a lot of his action scenes to me are second to none.
> 
> ...


I can understand what youre saying i think i felt a little like that at the end of blood pact.
However, hving read the exerpt of salvations reach availible on BL.com i kinda understand what he might be doing.
When the stakes arre raised, fr instance crusade winning stakes, all the big players jump in and its no longer a story of the faceless at the bottom of artillary holes but of true heroes, match winning heroes. Hence the more focused storylines...where everything is important.
Well thats what i think anyway


In the future, please keep from using red text; that one is specifically reserved for the staff. - darkreever


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

I understand why you might feel that way, but you are forgetting one important thing relating to Warhammer 40k. It's faith based, which is a particular theme in Gaunt's Ghosts. Where ever there is faith, there can be miracles, as demonstrated prior to TG.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Those Chaos Space Marines were not just defeated by darts, though.



The five Chaos Space Marines showed up at the encampment and began killing rather indiscriminately. They weren't working cohesively and seem to have separated into their own zones once the slaughter began. Nezera was killed first; he was basically backstabbed by Gaunt and his power sword while he's shooting at fleeing humans. It's worth noting that, immediately afterwards, Uexkull is shot by a dart in the head and shrugs it off.

By this time, the Ghosts - with the exception of Gaunt - aren't even fighting. They're trying to recover their weapons. And Abnett makes it clear that the other humans simply cannot stop the Chaos Space Marines with their crossbows and poisoned quarrels.

Brostin eventually recovers his heavy cannon and engages one of the Chaos Space Marines. It has no effect, and the Marine crumples the cannon with a power fist, hurling Brostin in the swamp in the process.

Uexkull then catches Gaunt trying to ambush him and the Commissar is barely able to escape.

Tona Criid then kills another Chaos Space Marine via ambush: she drops a satchel of tube-charges (the same ones they use against armored vehicles and such) from the tree she's in on top of him, and they do their job as advertised.

At that point, Rawne rushes to the unconscious Larkin and shoots a Chaos Marine at "almost point blank range" in the head with a hot-shot round. In my opinion, this is the weakest of the kills: the Space Marine notices Rawne and is already raising his flamer to fire before the Major has even taken aim with a weapon he's unfamiliar with. All things being equal, I don't see how Rawne would be able to sneak in, pick up a weapon, and take that shot without a creature with superhuman reflexes getting the drop on him.

Varl then shoots a fourth Space Marine in the head with his own bolter while he's busy trying to tear Tona Criid apart. He unloads seven bolt rounds right under his helmet and uses his augmetic shoulder to brace against the "gigantic recoil".

Finally, Uexkull rebuffs Gaunt's attempt to ambush him one more time. His counterattack leaves Gaunt stunned and helpless. At that point, all the remaining partisan humans start shooting Uexkull in his exposed head with dozens of poisoned quarrels. He dies as much from the overwhelming amounts of poison as from massive cranial trauma:

_"His head was a head no longer. It was a distorted mass of meat and broken bone so thickly stuck with iron barbs that many of the bow-shots ricocheted back off the close-packed metal stalks."_

And at the end of it all, the Ghosts wonder just how they managed to defeat five Chaos Space Marines. The conclusion they more or less arrive at is "luck".

Abnett makes it clear in that same chapter that entire brigades of Guardsmen will flee before just a few Chaos Space Marines. I think there's a difference, though, between a group acting in concert, using tactics to maximize their firepower and ability for a specific objective... and five guys moving into a woodland swamp stronghold and just going about things their own way with the only thing in mind being to kill everything they see.

Should Uexkull and his followers have thought things through better? Maybe. Ultimately, though (in my humble opinion), Chaos Space Marines are not always the most disciplined, sane individuals. 

Cheers,
P.


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

Not to mention that the chaos space marines went into that situation armed more with arrogance than sense... I guess Abnett did a bang up job of portraying the results of arrogance in some situations lol


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Then the Ghosts are backed into a corner and have to fight; their mission is too important, they've already been through too much and might have to give everything before they come close to completing the mission. Let's not forget that this, no matter the outcome, might be a one-way trip as the corruption of Gereon might stop them from ever coming 'home'. This gives them their big edge over their foes- motivation. As the battle starts, the Chaos Marines know they've already won; the Ghosts know they can't lose.

GFP


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## Durant (Aug 24, 2011)

Thank you for the responses.

I know that there were more than darts, I was merely understating the Tanith actions.

I take on board what you are all saying, but still feel to come away without a Tanith casualty against CM was against the W40k canon.

Or I can put it another way, what if it was 5 Blood Angels, or 5 Space Wolves, all very arrogant and cocksure of their abilities, would they be taken out so easily!


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

But it wasn't done easily. That's what I'm trying to convey.

Nor was it just a few Tanith. Had there not been all those partisans and unarmed family members there - essentially serving as distractions and victims - the Ghosts would _not_ have succeeded.

Additionally, had the Chaos Space Marines not been arrogant idiots about it, they almost certainly would have laid waste to everyone there... possibly without suffering a single casualty.

Cheers,
P.


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## Durant (Aug 24, 2011)

Phoebus said:


> But it wasn't done easily. That's what I'm trying to convey.
> 
> Nor was it just a few Tanith. Had there not been all those partisans and unarmed family members there - essentially serving as distractions and victims - the Ghosts would _not_ have succeeded.
> 
> ...


I did not read the CSM as arrogant. They successfully hunted the Tanith down on Gereon through their skill and experience, and the CSM element was a really well written build up on Abnetts behalf, just extremely anticlimactic in its execution.

Partisans, who I read as being no more than tribal type natives would have been like water off rocks to CSM's, whether you give your CSM personality or have them as mindless killing machines does not matter. The Astarte’s armour, weaponry coupled with centuries of battlefield experience would have had them killing every last one of the occupants of that camp. Do not get me started on this super poison they used, Abnett needs to reread the Gene seed implants, in particular, the Preomnor.

Even though they are main characters of the series, they are still squishy Imperial Guard, I always believed IG to be strength in sheer numbers when it came down to the varying differences and attributes of W40k armies. There was never any talk of superior strategy, tactics in early stuff it was point a million men at the enemy if they were getting wiped out, send in a million more after them.

The new fiction has moved away from the dark, bleak horror ridden universe I recall from my youth, where Imperials only knew war, everyone was unhappy because of the emperor being dead/un-dead, being happy was illegal and when you grew up you were sent to the meat grinder. (Do not recall where I read the happy bit, it may not have been canon but it was an interesting concept and made the universe feel even that little bit harsher) 

IE, the good ol days J


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I'll grant you that we will all read things differently. For myself, I looked at it this way:

Those five Chaos Space Marines were sent to get the Ghosts. That was their specific task, following a very successful campaign of guerilla warfare waged by Gaunt & Co. Upon arriving at the location where their prey was at, Uexkull and and his men basically go their own way and start killing people left and right. There was no methodical approach, no plan, no concerted tactics. They basically arrived, sure of themselves and their impending victory, and started killing wholesale. To me, that's arrogant.

As for the partisans, the way you described is exactly how they were shown. They were completely helpless against the Chaos Space Marines, who were just mowing them down mercilessly. Like I said, Abnett had Uexkull shot by said poison quarrels right off the bat, and he shrugged it off. So he's really not ignoring what the Geneseed brings to the fight. At the end of it, I think it's clear that Uexkull didn't just die from poison: his head was destroyed. Is that unrealistic? I think we need to remember that (A) Uexkull wasn't wearing a helmet and (B) the natives weren't just shooting darts at him... they were using magnetically-accelerated metal quarrels - dozens of hem. His head was a pin-cushion! :biggrin:

Where your perception of the Guard is concerned, I'd argue that commanders, tactics, and results vary. I don't deny that there is an ongoing theme of cold-hearted marshals who sent millions of men to die - it goes hand-in-hand with the Grimdark aspect of 40k. But that's not to say that there isn't the exception. Macharius was definitely not like that, and he goes back a long way in the fluff; Gaunt is not like that either. And it's made clear that what happened on Gereon was the exception and not the rule.

I agree with your final paragraph 100%, but I honestly don't think that this particular incident is indicative of that problem.

Good discussion! 

Cheers,
P.


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

Phoebus said:


> I'll grant you that we will all read things differently. For myself, I looked at it this way:
> 
> Those five Chaos Space Marines were sent to get the Ghosts. That was their specific task, following a very successful campaign of guerilla warfare waged by Gaunt & Co. Upon arriving at the location where their prey was at, Uexkull and and his men basically go their own way and start killing people left and right. There was no methodical approach, no plan, no concerted tactics. They basically arrived, sure of themselves and their impending victory, and started killing wholesale. To me, that's arrogant.
> 
> ...



For reals. Gaunt is a man of incredible depth. One of the things stressed from the very beginning is how he is one of the exceptions. He doesn't sacrifice needlessly and when he does, it isn't for his own personal interests, it's for the emperor. Gaunt is a selfless, willing tool of the emperor who fights on the basis of belief, not advancement. In fact, how many times have we seen him decline advancement? Under that kind of leadership, that extra something that makes the difference between a good and great warrior is extracted assuming that those serving under that leadership recognize the quality of their leader, which the Tanith certainly do.

It's totally cool for people to see it differently. Nobody is making anyone continue to read Abnetts work, it's just unfortunate for the people who come to that conclusion. Not a criticism, just conntrasting how much I still enjoy everything Abnett as a result


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## Durant (Aug 24, 2011)

Phoebus, some good points, I think maybe I am still sorely disappointed that the story did not go the way I wanted it to 

cheeto, I am in no way putting Dan Abnett down, nor his works, you would not think it but he is still my favourite W40k writer! I am not liking the way ghosts are going at this point, Blood Pact finished "meh", but left me sufficiently interested into which way its going to go so I will be getting the next Gaunt installment.
(Im not going to read the excerpt, not sure I can take being tantalised and then having to wait to read whole thing )

Glad I found this forum, informed, troll/desktop warrior free, educated discussion (past experience includes MMO forums... :shok


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Now, I will say this. As someone who wants more Grimdark in 40k, I would LOVE to see a series of Guard books starring exactly the sort of commander that Gaunt always goes up against: an arrogant, aristocratic, cold-hearterd, murderous individual with little care for his warriors but a great penchant for propaganda. A sort of eeeevil Napoleon or Alexander, if you will.

Cheers,
P.


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## Durant (Aug 24, 2011)

What would you fellow ghost’s fans think about the following:

Would it have upset you to read Traitor General and for Gaunt to fail, Strumm to escape and the ghosts get stranded until the start of last command, which for all intent could have started as it did just with Gaunt et al having a lot more explaining to do!

As W40k aficionados (heh great word) do we not expect bad things to happen? Not everything has to go from bad to worse to getting better to "we won"
We are all grownups, we can take a knock now and then, and I bet we would appreciate the writers more for it. 

Addendum - I will not accept the arbitrary killing off of "favourite characters" as an example of this. This thread would hold a lot more protestation towards the series had the odd familiar name not been offed now and then


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

No worries, it wasn't really taken that way. Just a differing point of view. I think the whole point here isn't to argue as much as it is to persuade through our own points of view so you can get back into the series and enjoy it as much as we do.


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