# The Sanguinor



## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

i was just reading a review on bloodline and whould like to see what you guys think the sanguinor is or who it is.

my personal idea is that it is sanguinius himself or more along the lines of a wraithlord type construct that contains the soul of the angel.

we see many pictures of the primarchs with waystone type items on their armour and id like to think with the emperors experience with psychic stuff he was able to maybe have abit of knowledge as to the use of such items. 
maybe he feared some could be slain in battle or knew who would be slain in the HH so had those items placed on the armour of some primarchs and later constructed the nessecary bodies for the waystones to be put to use and reading into the actions of the sanguinor then its possible that the course of the heresy had to go on without interruption for the emperors plan to succeed. maybe the emperor trusted a few beings with certain tasks to complete so to guide the events of the heresy has he wanted and sanguinius's death was a key task. so sanguinius knew he was gonna die but if his soul could be saved in a waystone then he could always be avaliable when he was needed most by the chapters of his bloodline. 

there is questions as to the events of the short story in tales of heresy called 'the voice' were the heresy could have been stopped but it wasnt and everytime someone gets the knowledge of what horus is gonna do it never seems to gets passed on to the emperor without something going wrong.
i personally cant see how a being like the emperor couldnt have seen the events of the heresy when all sorts of beings who are alot weaker than Him have knowledge of whats gonna happen long before it does and this for me always falls into the catergory that the emperor knew and he had a plan that needed to be followed at all cost. 

for me having sanguinius avaliable for the end times would be invaluable and by creating a wraithlord type construct for him to use would be the best way to have him on the side of good.

what do you guys think?


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## Quozzo (Oct 2, 2010)

This is assuming the Emperor had waystones placed on the Primarchs armour and assuming he knew who was going to die in the heresey and assuming he could contruct something that could contain the spirits of the Primarchs?

If he knew which Primarchs were going to die, then why not tell them, or stop it. If he could reincarnate the spirit of a Primarch why not reincarnate himself? 

I think the Sanguinor is just red thirst incarnate


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I like to think it's Azkaellon suffering from quite the opposite of the Black Rage, but rather the psychic backlash of the Grace of Sanguineous. He is in essence the polar opposite of the Death Company. 

Did anyone else think the Sergeant on the Terrorclaw was Dante then?

Aramoro


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

To me the Blood Angels Codex pretty much sets it up as the last suviving member of the Sanguinary Guard Azkaellon is Sanguinor, certainly an idea I'd buy into more than the idea that the gems on some Primarchs armour are actually Eldar-esque Waystones.

The Emperor was blinded to the shifting paths of the future, the Chaos Gods may not have been able to manifest in real space but they could certainly block the Emperor's foresight.
Other than Magnus and Alpharius/Omegon who amongst the Imperials knew of Horus' corruption before it was revealed at Istvaan III?


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## Quozzo (Oct 2, 2010)

@ Aramoro
Dante being the sergeant is pretty vague but fairly obvious, if that makes sense 

"A few amongst the Chapter Council argue that he is the coalescion of the Primarch's nobler side. the part that kept Sanguinius' darkness In check, and that was lost to the Blood Angels upon his death"

It would seem that Azkaellon wouldn't be immune to psychic blast effects 

"The Inquisition in particular worry that the Sanguinor is some form of psychic construct, and that his existence proves the Blood Angels to be just as flawed spiritually as they are physically."

To me that sounds like not a being, but a force made manifest which helps them at their direst need, and when does the black rage come? Thats right, in their direst moment.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> To me the Blood Angels Codex pretty much sets it up as the last suviving member of the Sanguinary Guard Azkaellon is Sanguinor, certainly an idea I'd buy into more than the idea that the gems on some Primarchs armour are actually Eldar-esque Waystones.
> 
> The Emperor was blinded to the shifting paths of the future, the Chaos Gods may not have been able to manifest in real space but they could certainly block the Emperor's foresight.
> Other than Magnus and Alpharius/Omegon who amongst the Imperials knew of Horus' corruption before it was revealed at Istvaan III?


who said he was definatly blinded to the shifting patterns of the future when he seems to know that mankind is on a very narrow path to extinction. i think he would probably be more blinded to the fact that horus would betray him of all primarchs than any other thing. maybe he knew some would turn and hazard a guess as to which ones seeing as he was quite cold towards some primarch and quite fatherly to some. 

i was under the impression curze knew what was gonna happen and when he was having some fit the emperor was able to sooth his pain so i cant see why the emperor wouldnt be able to read curze's thought and gain knowledge of what was to come.
plus there was that girl in 'the voice' who tried to send a message from the future of things yet to pass but that sister killed her and how it was written see seemed to have a idea of what the meaning of the message was.

now as to the actions of the sanguinor in bloodline by also stopping a message being sent back from the future we have another instant were yet more imperials are trying to get word to the emperor and are yet again stopped by a imperial.

now for me why is it that this message ,time and again, is being prevented from going through to the emperor and by loyal forces at that. and also when magnus and the emperor commune with each other when he breaks through the webway gate surely the emperor would be able to gleen the deeds of horus from him too.

for me there is too many instances when the emperor could be informed and he is not and it gets me thinking he has a plan that has a slim chance of working to combat chaos and needs things to run his way. yes there will be sacrifices but they are worth it in the bigger picture. 
but if he has seeded certain ways for him to have his generals for the final battle then their sacrifice would not be in vain. 

hell a wraithlord type body for the most noble of all primarchs and a necrodermis head for ferrus and you got those players back in the game.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Ferrus is on arguably on mars, waiting....perhaps they repaired his wounds with the void dragon's necrodermis technology.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Lux said:


> Ferrus is on arguably on mars, waiting....perhaps they repaired his wounds with the void dragon's necrodermis technology.


No, he's not. No more crackpot theories from you. He had his head _chopped off_. He's dead.


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Lux said:


> Ferrus is on arguably on mars, waiting....perhaps they repaired his wounds with the void dragon's necrodermis technology.


Ferrus died on Isstavan, decapitation, Fulgrim presented Horus with his head.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

As some sources lead to indirectly, the head presented to horus was a faux visage.


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Lux said:


> As some sources lead to indirectly, the head presented to horus was a faux visage.


Which sources?
Wrong, Ferrus is dead get over it.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Lux said:


> As some sources lead to indirectly, the head presented to horus was a faux visage.


Those sources which you have yet to produce? Other than vague claims that we need to connect the dots in the 'old fluff'.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Older codexs have stated there are rumors of ferrus residing in mar,s but his legion refutes it.


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Older codex's are not cannon any more whereas there is an ENTIRE CHAPTER in Fulgrim which is Fulgrim fighting and eventually slaying Ferrus.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I think it's best such discussion regarding Ferrus ends here, _Lux_ will not be swayed from his theories - and it only serves to derail an otherwise interesting thread.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Mr. Stillos...are you referencing to a book from the horus heresy line?


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Yes I am but if you want to talk on this further you'll need a new thread cos Im going on what CotE is saying.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I won't dereail this thread, I appologize if I was doing so.

On topic, I do think the sanguinor could be the psychic manifestation of sang. I do believe in sang's death, he horus ripped sang's soul from his body as torture. But some how sang, or the emp was able to tether sangs soul to a shell.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I always thought of the Sang thing as a BA version of the Living Saint sorta dealie.

Incoherent babble. Still high on paint thinner fumes from work. ... *deep breath*

Okay. Much like the Emperor`s will was (supposedly) able to revive Sister Celestine and grant her divine *cough*chaos*cough* powers, I believe the Sanguinor to be the afore mentioned Blood Angel Whatsisname. 

He was revived by the Emperor in the same way to Celestine. Or perhaps empowered in a similar manner. In any case, I maintain that these phenomena are warp powered manifestations, Emperor ordained or latent psyker I will leave open to interpretation.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

GW does not have the balls to bring a loyalist Primarch back nor in a direct or indirect way, still I think the idea with the gem stones was great


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## Leman-russ (Mar 8, 2009)

i also like idea with gemstone, :read:

or may be is one of lost primarchs:shok:


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Could it be Captain Tycho?


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

piemelke said:


> GW does not have the balls to bring a loyalist Primarch back nor in a direct or indirect way, still I think the idea with the gem stones was great


if gw wanted to bring back a primarch, loyalist or otherwise i think they would, its not a question of wether or not they have the balls to do so. IMHO they just do not believe it is condusive to the needs of thier universe at the moment.
its better to let the likes of us speculate and wish and all that then actually say_ yeah here he is its the angel in a new body_
however it is an interesting theroy the waystone one, personally i think it was just armour decoration but its a theroy never the less. i know the blood angels sanguinus books were good, i did enjoy them and the fact they played on the wish of the angels to see thier father resurected and how it brought about about a civil war within the chapter and almost brought the blood angels to thier knees.
as for sanguinus resurected i don't think he is but i do think that maybe rafen has slightly more of sanguinus in him then his brothers at least deus sanguinus and deus encarmine lead me to believe that.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

gothik said:


> as for sanguinus resurected i don't think he is but i do think that maybe rafen has slightly more of sanguinus in him then his brothers at least deus sanguinus and deus encarmine lead me to believe that.



Wasn't there a kind of spiritual manifestation of Sanguinius to Rafen at the one stage when he was hiding from the Blood Angels loyal to Arkio and praying for guidance to that little Emperor statue. I haven't read those books in a while so my memory is a bit hazy and I don't have my copy of the omnibus on hand coz' that other prick who has my orks codex also still has that as well. Anyway, what would that be? The actual spirit of Sanguinius manifesting from the warp to answer the call of one of his loyal sons? the Sanguinor? or somehing else, like Rafen simply hallucinating because of early black rage symptoms?


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Could it be Captain Tycho?


Nah Psycho Tycho dies fairly recently and the Sanginor has been around for at least 1200 years, probably more as Dante remembers him.

Aramoro


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Chompy Bits said:


> Wasn't there a kind of spiritual manifestation of Sanguinius to Rafen at the one stage when he was hiding from the Blood Angels loyal to Arkio and praying for guidance to that little Emperor statue. I haven't read those books in a while so my memory is a bit hazy and I don't have my copy of the omnibus on hand coz' that other prick who has my orks codex also still has that as well. Anyway, what would that be? The actual spirit of Sanguinius manifesting from the warp to answer the call of one of his loyal sons? the Sanguinor? or somehing else, like Rafen simply hallucinating because of early black rage symptoms?


i was wondering that myself chompy and it could be any of the above,whether it was sangs spirit or some other mystical vision remains to be seen but is it me or is Mephiston taking a great deal of interest in sargeant Rafen, more then anyone else thats for certain, and he did wield the spear....hmmm


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

to gothik,
GW can bring the primarchs back for sure but doing that can be opening a box of Pandora,
I honestly do think they do not have the guts (wisdom) to do it, that being said I do not think the current setting needs extra primarchs to make it more interesting. For example the mess the BA are in described in the last codex promises a tantalizing read. 
I was wondering if other successor chapters of the BA are helped by the sanguinator or just the BA, that micht shed some light on the case, I assule a primarch would help all his children no?


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

The fluff on The Sanguinor is so dodgy.

"The blood angel strikeforce were struggling and then...errm, this angel thing shows up and...kills everything. Blood angels win."

That pretty much sums up the repetitive role the Sanguinor plays historically.

Personally, I think it was just an excuse to get someones ridiculous idea into the codex. 

However, I do believe it's given way to both Pre-heresy Angron and the BA primarch (whos name I can't remember...how embarressing :/) in terms of gameplay.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

he is probably a blood angel equivalent of one of the legion of the damned. shows up, rescues and kicks major ass, then leaves.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

or the loyal spirit of the red angel?!


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> or the loyal spirit of the *red angel*?!


Why would Angron (The red angel) help the Blood Angels?


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

GW hasn't shown any real signs of bringing back the Primarchs in over 20 years, I can't see it changing any time soon.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Captain Stillios said:


> Why would Angron (The red angel) help the Blood Angels?


where did you get angron as the red angel? the red angel is a blood angel space marine being possessed at the hands of horus and several other primarchs, dark mechanicus members and some daemons on the vengeful spirit. it is in collected visions. if you have it, check it out.


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

Ah I see, no I haven't read Collected Visions it's just that Angron is somtimes refered to as the Red Angel....


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

i havent got my copy to hand but its quite a cool picture but it doesnt give anymore detail except the name of the blood angel. not sure if anyone else knows more.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

i always assumed the red angel was one of Angrons nicknames too, ah well learn something new everday


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

piemelke said:


> to gothik,
> GW can bring the primarchs back for sure but doing that can be opening a box of Pandora,
> I honestly do think they do not have the guts (wisdom) to do it, that being said I do not think the current setting needs extra primarchs to make it more interesting. For example the mess the BA are in described in the last codex promises a tantalizing read.
> I was wondering if other successor chapters of the BA are helped by the sanguinator or just the BA, that micht shed some light on the case, I assule a primarch would help all his children no?


i agree with you on that, it would open a pandoras box and to be honest i like the idea that the space marines have to contnue thier paths without thier fathers by thier side and therefore have to face life without the reassurance of the omnipotent and all powerful father figure hence why GW haven't done it although thats not to say at somepoint in the far distant future they won't.
still there are enough legends in the marine chapters to keep the spirits of thier fathers alive at any rate.
i am not sure about the sanguinator helps out the BA's succesor chapters but i would like to think he would as when all is said and done they are Blood Angels all be it by another name they share the same bloodline, not as ancient or powerful as the foundng leigon but still sons of Sanguinus never the less.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> where did you get angron as the red angel? the red angel is a blood angel space marine being possessed at the hands of horus and several other primarchs, dark mechanicus members and some daemons on the vengeful spirit. it is in collected visions. if you have it, check it out.


Angron is several times referred to as _The Red Angel_. 

The Red Angel you are referring to in _Collected Visions_ will feature in _Fear to Tread_.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Angron is several times referred to as _The Red Angel_.
> 
> The Red Angel you are referring to in _Collected Visions_ will feature in _Fear to Tread_.


when does that come out?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gothik said:


> when does that come out?


We don't know yet. But it's James Swallow's next Heresy novel.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Angron is several times referred to as _The Red Angel_.
> 
> The Red Angel you are referring to in _Collected Visions_ will feature in _Fear to Tread_.


i must say ive not heard that before. i dont know too much about angron but after de'shea is sensational i think and i would like to see alot more to do with what the emperor did/didnt do at de'shea and see if angron was schemeing against the emperor from that day. (i think so)


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