# Timeline inconsistency-Are the Eldar younger than humanity?



## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

First thread, so here goes:

What we know about the pre-Imperium timeline for both races is this:

Humanity 
1.Current Age/Dark Age of Technology 
2.Age of Strife 
3.Warp storms recede 
4.Emprah's Crusade 
5.Current Grimdarkness 

Eldar
1.Blank
2.Blank
3.Fall of the Eldar/birth of Slaanesh/Rise of the Imperium
4.Grimdarkness
5.Grimdarkness




I think we can assume that the Eldar Empire and the Golden Age human empires didn't coexist, as both are meant to have ruled the entire galaxy at some stage.

Therefore the fact that the Eldar Empire falls right at the end of the Age of strife means that it simply couldn't predate humanity as the snooty spess elfs like to imply. This also fits in with the eldar view of humanity, as they would have only seen the crappy rabble of the Age of Strife rather than the STC-wielding humanity of old.

(However, the fact that the Eldar are meant to have fought the Necrons way before history 
I think means that this is simply an odd oversight of GW rather than an intentional action.)


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Or perhaps golden age humans *did* interact with the Eldar? I'm not that good with the fluff, so I don't know how possible this is.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

A lot of the human colonies rediscovered during great crusade were purged due to dealing with xenos too much....poss eldar?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

According to the DE codex, the Eldar more or less checked out of the galaxy and "relocated their powerbases into the labyrinth dimension know as the webway..."

So maybe that's where they went in the twenty, thirty thousand years before the Fall?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah I always found it peculiar, Old Night came about because of the birth of Slaanesh, yet Humans had colonies all over the galaxy, and the eldar where twiddling their thumbs?


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Slaanesh starts to coalesce in the Warp from about M25 onwards; it took a hell of a long time for her to grow. The Eldar had been in the ascendancy since the War in Heaven, against the Necrons, their empire growing from after the Enslaver plague almost stripped the galaxy of sentient life. These things happened millions of years ago, so the Eldar have been around a _very_ long time and their empire has had a long time to be built, although a more-functional Webway than now really helped this expansion.
There's also the fact that the galaxy is so big that it would be possible for huge swathes of space to never feel the presence of a galaxy-spanning empire.

GFP


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

> Therefore the fact that the Eldar Empire falls right at the end of the Age of strife means that it simply couldn't predate humanity as the snooty spess elfs like to imply. This also fits in with the eldar view of humanity, as they would have only seen the crappy rabble of the Age of Strife rather than the STC-wielding humanity of old.


I think your over estimating human technology and underestimating the eldar, eldar tech is considerably more advance than any STC that humanity possessed

also for much of the latter part the eldar empire the eldar were simply enjoying their dominance. There was no reason to fight the fractured colonies. They were no threat. Those that they wanted to interact with could be easy traded with or exterminated

We know there are many many xenos races in the galaxy, and there were many more before the emperor began his process of extermination, the idea that eldar couldn't be dominant during the golden age (which we know very little about, the imperium is probably far larger and although less forward thing more technological capible and stable)

The eldar are amongst the oldest race in the galaxy. The necrontyr looked at them with extreme jelousy due to their abilities, physiology and lifespan way before the war in the heavans started


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Well not exactly. The turbulence of the warp is what caused the Age of Strife (and therefore the end of the Dark Age of Technology). To be technical anyway.
> 
> 
> It's almost certain that one of the alien species that humanity maintained "non-aggression pacts" with, was the Eldar Empire.
> ...


http://heresy-online.net/forums/showpost.php?p=887291&postcount=14


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Yep. :goodpost: 

The eldar were the dominant race of the galaxy even when humanity was at its technological peak. Record from that time are mostly lost from the Imperium, but that does not change that fact. The eldar were around long before humanity and are the oldest major race other than c`tan or necrons that we know of.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Sturmovic's problem here is that he's placing numbers next to his Imperial and Eldar timelines, as if these are periods that began and ended at roughly the same time. While we can track the Fall of the Eldar in the human timeline, we can't track the Eldar events we know about on the human calendar. We're just not sure when they were doing certain things except where the histories touch, or how long they had been doing such... Except that it was a very, very long time.


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## MightisRight (May 30, 2011)

The eldar were created not long (probably a few thousand years) after the Necrons ascended to their mechanical forms, as did the Kroork (orks). Both were created by the old ones to combat the menace of the Necrontyr and the C'tan Stargods. Each was designed with strong connections to the warp in order that they could have any hope against the C'tan, who can only be harmed by the warp. When the Old Ones disappeared, the eldar and kroork broke apart, building their own civilisations and their own identities. What happened between then and the Dark Age of Technology is largey unknown.


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

As I understand it, the Eldar started using the webway before mankind started on its most basic space travel. However the Emperor of mankind was created and born before the Eldar were introduced to the Old Slann. Also going by the old Fluff, the Emperor of Mankind as a single entity predates any of the chaos Gods awakening, although it was the start of the creation of the first chaos gods and demons that led to the shamans creating the Emperor.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Many of those eldar events, such as the War in Heaven, happened before there _was_ a human calendar. :laugh:

EDIT: The Emperor`s origins can`t be confirmed in current 40k fluff, it is left open to several possibilities.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

MightisRight said:


> The eldar were created not long (probably a few thousand years) after the Necrons ascended to their mechanical forms, as did the Kroork (orks).


Going slightly off-topic but it makes me wonder why the Old Ones created the Orks to combat the psyphobic Necrons/Ctan when their main strengths are their numbers and physiology. I can see why the Eldar were created but the Orks strikes me as odd. 

Sure they have their Waaagh! moments but even then, the Orks are by no means known for their psychic prowess and their ability to use the Warp as a weapon as the other races. 

Also, for the Old Ones to have used the Orks against their enemies, it would mean they most definitely had a way of controlling the Orks and preventing them from fighting with one another which in the WH40k universe, seems to be something that goes against their nature.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

No, the eldar were created to fight the necrons, the eldar gods were designed to fight the c`tan. 

The krork were created much much later after the enslaver plague began to take hold. They were able to utilise the warp whilst resisting its effects for the most part. The idea was that they would be able to fight back the enslavers I believe, or at the very least, resist them. 

They survived presumably because of this trait, and this is also why they are less susceptible to the influence of Chaos today.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> The krork were created much much later after the enslaver plague began to take hold. They were able to utilise the warp whilst resisting its effects for the most part. The idea was that they would be able to fight back the enslavers I believe, or at the very least, resist them.
> 
> They survived presumably because of this trait, and this is also why they are less susceptible to the influence of Chaos today.


Where did you hear that the Orks were meant primarily for the Enslavers? 

I'm also quite certain they're less susceptible to Chaos because of the warp beings they worship and their lack of a desire for anything other than fighting, thus eliminating their need for anything else Chaos might offer.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Necron codex. It`s written in that order and heavily implied that the orks were brought forth in reaction to the Enslavers. 

Given what we know of them, it makes sense.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Note Orks are effectively anti-Necrons. They're almost complete opposites. Connected to the Warp, not big on cold logic at all, they're an expression of unleashed, chaotic and exceptionally violent LIFE.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Necron codex. It`s written in that order and heavily implied that the orks were brought forth in reaction to the Enslavers.
> 
> Given what we know of them, it makes sense.


Given what we know of them, they were meant to fight against alien jellyfish? lol.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I didn`t say that for sure, I suggested it as a possibility. What I am confident of however was that they were intended to be resistant to the direct influence of the Enslavers ie: immune or resistant to possession.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> I didn`t say that for sure, I suggested it as a possibility. What I am confident of however was that they were intended to be resistant to the direct influence of the Enslavers ie: immune or resistant to possession.


It would appear though that the Enslavers are more than capable of mind-controlling even non-psykers and given time, can control even psykers with mental defenses.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I am simply saying what I interpreted. It is logical to assume given the timeline and the orkoid nature that they were originally designed to resist the enslavers. 

How successful they were in this regard and what role they may have taken during or since that time is not written anywhere to my knowledge, so in truth it is left open. All I said was what I could make of it. 

Now tell me, have you read the necron codex in detail?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> I am simply saying what I interpreted. It is logical to assume given the timeline and the orkoid nature that they were originally designed to resist the enslavers.


Orkoid nature is for them to find a worthy foe to physically fight and to battle them until someone dies. Killing alien jellyfish that do not fight nor have the limbs with which to do so does not strike me as something an Ork would seek out or excel at combating.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Again, I assumed a resistance to the enslaver`s influence and possession. Whether they actually fought them face to face I wouldn`t know. 

Since you didn`t answer my question, here`s a quote from Necron codex Pg 25:



> The C`tan now dominated the galaxy.The last bastions of the Old Ones were besieged and the races they had nurtured became cattle for the obscene hunger of the C`tan.
> 
> _Some filler omitted_
> 
> Eventually even the Old Ones, legendary for their patience and implacability, became desperate.They manipulated life into new forms with an ever stronger link to the warp, desiring minions with the capability of channeling psychic power to defend themselves.They nurtured many potential warrior races, and there is speculation that these included the earliest Eldar, the Rashan, the Knib and many others.Millennia passed as their creations bore fruit and the C`tan extinguished yet more life from the galaxy.


From this we deduce that the eldar were brought forth to fight the necrons. A little further, to Pg 26:



> The growing pains of the Young Races threw the untapped energies of the warp into disorder. War, pain and destruction were mirrored in the bottomless depths of the sea of souls. The maelstroms of spirits unleashed in the carnage coalesced into the previously formless energies of the warp. Older warp entities became terrifying predators, rending at the souls of vulnerable psykers as their environment was torn asunder and reforged by the energies called forth for warring in the material universe.
> 
> 
> The denizens of the warp clustered voraciously at the cracks between dimensions, seeking ways into the material world. The Old Ones brought forth newer creations to defend their last strongholds, like the hardy green skinned krork and the technology mimicking jokaero, but it was already too late. The Old Ones intergalactic network was breached and lost to them, their greatest works and places of power overrun by the horrors their own creations had unleashed.
> ...


From this I deduce that the orks and jokaero were among the races designed with a resistance to the warp entities, enslavers included.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Again, I assumed a resistance to the enslaver`s influence and possession. Whether they actually fought them face to face I wouldn`t know.


And yet you adamantly stick to the idea that the Orks were made with the Enslavers in mind despite their nature to seek a fight with opponents to test their mettle against.



Serpion5 said:


> Since you didn`t answer my question, here`s a quote from Necron codex Pg 25:


Your question being whether or not I can copy paste bits and pieces from a codex or have I memorized a codex word per word?



Serpion5 said:


> From this we deduce that the eldar were brought forth to fight the necrons. A little further, to Pg 26:


No one is disputing that.



Serpion5 said:


> From this I deduce that the orks and jokaero were among the races designed with a resistance to the warp entities, enslavers included.


How did you deduce from the text you quoted that the Orks and Jokaero were resistant to the Enslavers, who from the same block of text, are mentioned to have dominated the '_younger races_' ?

And the bit about the defending of their remaining strongholds most likely refers to the warp daemons physically deadly enough for the Orks to really shine against, not the alien jellyfish.

: )


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

This is why I believe the Tau are the final creations of the Old Ones.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> This is why I believe the Tau are the final creations of the Old Ones.


Quite a shitty creation if you ask me, not being attuned to the warp, while having its advantages (ie. the chaos powers not even noticing you) has a lot more disadvantages especially in a universe where almost every race have potent psykers that defy the technologies of their enemies.

Also it's only due to the hidden stewardship of the Eldar that the Tau and the intervention of the Tyranids (when the damocles crusade was called off) have survived for all this time besides sheer _luck_.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Quite a shitty creation if you ask me, not being attuned to the warp, while having its advantages (ie. the chaos powers not even noticing you) has a lot more disadvantages especially in a universe where almost every race have potent psykers that defy the technologies of their enemies.
> 
> Also it's only due to the hidden stewardship of the Eldar that the Tau and the intervention of the Tyranids (when the damocles crusade was called off) have survived for all this time besides sheer _luck_.


It's a balancing act, I don't believe that want the Tau to rule the whole galaxy, but they want a force that can fight the Necrons without having to worry about them being abused by warp entities. The current races can deal with the warp now but they all have a hard time when it comes to Necrons.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> It's a balancing act, I don't believe that want the Tau to rule the whole galaxy, but they want a force that can fight the Necrons without having to worry about them being abused by warp entities. The current races can deal with the warp now but they all have a hard time when it comes to Necrons.


The Tau are a purely technological race and they will not fare well at all against the vastly technologically superior Necrons.

The only races that pose a threat to the Necrons are the psychically attuned and those with brute-force and numbers (Imperium, Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, Chaos warbands, etc.). 

I wouldn't say the Imperium for example have a great deal of difficulty in dealing with the Necrons, rather it's because they're being attacked on all sides daily that coupled with the Necrons technology and given their nature, prove to be quite burdensome. 

However if the Necrons awakened the majority of their forces/their main technology, then that's another story entirely and not even a post-Heresy Imperium at the height of its power could _possibly _stand a chance (if the Emperor/Primarchs were alive, again it's a different story).

It's heavily hinted that the Eldar have invested a lot of their time with the Tau not the Old ones, some saying they want the Tau to succeed where they did not.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The Tau are a purely technological race and they will not fare well at all against the vastly technologically superior Necrons.
> 
> The only races that pose a threat to the Necrons are the psychically attuned and those with brute-force and numbers (Imperium, Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, Chaos warbands, etc.).
> 
> ...


I think I got it mixed up, the tau can/could fight chaos without the problems of the warp while the Imperium, Orcs remnants of the Eldar etc can fight the Necrons due to their psychic abilities/brute force. Does that sound right?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The Tau are a cosmic joke in the WH40k universe, they think they're so superior to everyone else when in fact the other races are too busy dealing with one another to even acknowledge them.


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## Dogbeard (Apr 15, 2011)

We know for a fact (by which I mean established canon in 40K) that as a species the Eldar are at least 60 million years old. So their dominance of the galaxy clearly lasted tens of millions of years prior to the Fall, which was very recent in the overall timeline of their existence.

The Tau were discovered by the Imperium in M35, and at that time the Tau were at Stone Age technology. We could assume that the Tau existed as a species for perhaps up to 200,000 years prior this, but that still makes them far too young a species to have been engineered by the Old Ones, who disappeared from the galaxy tens of millions of years ago.

For comparison, **** sapiens (modern humans) only go back 200,000 years and the earliest example of the genus _****_ is about 2.5 million years old.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Dogbeard said:


> We know for a fact (by which I mean established canon in 40K) that as a species the Eldar are at least 60 million years old. So their dominance of the galaxy clearly lasted tens of millions of years prior to the Fall, which was very recent in the overall timeline of their existence.
> 
> The Tau were discovered by the Imperium in M35, and at that time the Tau were at Stone Age technology. We could assume that the Tau existed as a species for perhaps up to 200,000 years prior this, but that still makes them far too young a species to have been engineered by the Old Ones, who disappeared from the galaxy tens of millions of years ago.
> 
> For comparison, **** sapiens (modern humans) only go back 200,000 years and the earliest example of the genus _****_ is about 2.5 million years old.


Tau where found on the very edge of the galaxy hidden behind a Warp storm though, Old Ones could easily take a trip back and sow the seeds of a new race.


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

I must respectfully disagree with the idea that the Eldar and Human empires coexisted, simply because both were the dominant force in the galaxy at the height of their powers-firstly the Imperium is composed mainly of worlds settled before the Age of Strife and that's most of the galaxy right there whereas Lexicanum also describes thee eldar as ruling most of the galaxy.

Secondly in literature the eldar always give the "we used to rule the stars" vibe rather than "we co-ruled with the humans". Furthermore, if the two empires were together or even coexisted then I don't see why humanity can't have avoided the warpstorms that caused the Age of Strife.

Again I think that this is simply a continuity error rather than a deliberate mindfornication.

As for the Tau, I read somewhere that they're made by the Necrons. But they could also be the result of Bender screwing around in Area 51.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Did you read the quote I provided from CoTE? It says the Eldar had alliance pacts with lesser races and at that time, humanity was not an aggressive player on the field. 

It's only when the warp storms ended (ie with the fall of the Eldar) and the emergence of the Emperor that humanity truly began to have an empire and became a galactic power.

So no I'm sorry but an entire franchise that has been going at it for thirty or so years did not make a mistake which you just so happened to _discover _while munching on a chocolate bar lol.


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## Dogbeard (Apr 15, 2011)

If you want to include time travel, ten billion Old Ones could suddenly show up at the start of M42 and conquer the galaxy. It's interesting speculation, but I really think the warp storms were simply a narrative device to cut off the Tau homeworld from the Imperium for a few thousand years.


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Did you read the quote I provided from CoTE? It says the Eldar had alliance pacts with lesser races and at that time, humanity was not an aggressive player on the field. .


I never said it was. I do however maintain that the fact that the Eldar had "supremacy inside of the Milky Way galaxy" and "held sway over the vast majority of the galaxy" simply doesn't sit with the fact that Dark Age mankind (which is what the Imperium is founded on) had "at least a million worlds" under its' own control and was also presumably spread throughout the galaxy.



Malus Darkblade said:


> It's only when the warp storms ended (ie with the fall of the Eldar) and the emergence of the Emperor that humanity truly began to have an empire and became a galactic power.


But the Imperium mainly retook already settled human worlds (not all of which have been found) rather than colonise new ones. Empire or not, I don't see how that leaves much room for both Eldar and humanity.



Malus Darkblade said:


> So no I'm sorry but an entire franchise that has been going at it for thirty or so years did not make a mistake which you just so happened to _discover _while munching on a chocolate bar lol.


This is however an undefined area lore-wise of a franchise that's made a lot of fluff changes and u-turns during its' history. 

Plus there's no need to be condescending about it, I'm just trying to float an idea.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Dogbeard said:


> If you want to include time travel, ten billion Old Ones could suddenly show up at the start of M42 and conquer the galaxy. It's interesting speculation, but I really think the warp storms were simply a narrative device to cut off the Tau homeworld from the Imperium for a few thousand years.


It's not time travel, the Old Ones left our galaxy, they could of returned, seen what was going on, threw up a warp storm and planted the seeds of the race that was grow into the Tau. That's what I think.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Sturmovic said:


> I never said it was. I do however maintain that the fact that the Eldar had "supremacy inside of the Milky Way galaxy" and "held sway over the vast majority of the galaxy" simply doesn't sit with the fact that Dark Age mankind (which is what the Imperium is founded on) had "at least a million worlds" under its' own control and was also presumably spread throughout the galaxy.
> But the Imperium mainly retook already settled human worlds (not all of which have been found) rather than colonise new ones. Empire or not, I don't see how that leaves much room for both Eldar and humanity.


Science says there are roughly 100,000,000,000 (100 Billion) stars in the milky way galaxy.

Seeing as each star could have a couple of habitable planets it stands to reason that even if the empire of humanity controlled 1 million star systems thats 0.001% of the milky way.

That leave PLENTY of space for the eldar empire - 99.999% of the stars in the galaxy to be exact.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Maidel said:


> Science says there are roughly 100,000,000,000 (100 Billion) stars in the milky way galaxy.
> 
> Seeing as each star could have a couple of habitable planets it stands to reason that even if the empire of humanity controlled 1 million star systems thats 0.001% of the milky way.
> 
> That leave PLENTY of space for the eldar empire - 99.999% of the stars in the galaxy to be exact.


The entire milky way is almost dominated by the Imperium though in 40k and most of them where originally colonised


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> The entire milky way is almost dominated by the Imperium though in 40k and most of them where originally colonised


I think our definintion of 'dominated' is wrong.

The eye of terror was the centre of the eldar empire and its creation wiped out most of their empire leaving craftworlds and terraformed maiden worlds.

Therefore the physical eldar empire wasnt that big, because if it was there would be hundreds and thousands of eldar planets so far from the eye that they wouldnt even remotely have been affected.

Also, despite the fact that the imperium 'claims' all that space, if they only populate 1 million star systems, then they must have gigantic 'holes' in that domination because they control such a tiny proportion of the planetary systems.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Yep. :goodpost:
> 
> The eldar were the dominant race of the galaxy even when humanity was at its technological peak. Record from that time are mostly lost from the Imperium, but that does not change that fact. The eldar were around long before humanity and are the oldest major race other than c`tan or necrons that we know of.


Actually the old ones predate the Eldar and possibly the Necrons*.

_That bit of time is a bit foggy to be 100% sure, maybe the new codex will clear things up... or not._


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## Dogbeard (Apr 15, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> It's not time travel, the Old Ones left our galaxy, they could of returned, seen what was going on, threw up a warp storm and planted the seeds of the race that was grow into the Tau. That's what I think.


The Old Ones didn't just abandon our galaxy, their civilization was destroyed. If there were any survivors, they were few in number. It's possible that some survivors rebuilt their civilization in the millions of years since in a distant galaxy, but that is just pure speculation not based on anything in canon. Of course, if this is the case, the surviving Old Ones could be the force behind the Tyranids, sending their latest creations to scour the galaxy of life to deny the C'tan and keep the Necrons in eternal hibernation.

Regarding the coexistence of the Eldar Empire and the Dark Age humans, Maidel does make a good point. There are probably hundreds of millions of planets in the habitable zone in our galaxy, so a million worlds is really only a small portion of these. Considering the vast distances between systems, it quite possible that the two civilizations overlapped in places while still being light years apart. Also, we know that the heart of the Eldar civilization was located where the Eye of Terror ripped open reality, a good 30,000 LY (roughly 176 quintillion miles) from the center of human expansion, the Earth. 

Had the birth of Slaanesh not virtually wiped out the Eldar Empire when it did, it's probable that the humans and eldar would have come into major conflict (and perhaps they did...we don't really know much about the the period between our modern age and M30 or so).


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

Maidel said:


> I think our definintion of 'dominated' is wrong.
> 
> The eye of terror was the centre of the eldar empire and its creation wiped out most of their empire leaving craftworlds and terraformed maiden worlds.
> 
> Therefore the physical eldar empire wasnt that big, because if it was there would be hundreds and thousands of eldar planets so far from the eye that they wouldnt even remotely have been affected.


True, true. However, they didn't live in the Webway either, as Commoragh (only Webway city we know of) was only established after the Fall.
Which leaves the interesting question of how exactly were the Eldar the dominant species
of the galaxy if they didn't live in much of the physical galaxy, nor in the Webway.



Maidel said:


> Also, despite the fact that the imperium 'claims' all that space, if they only populate 1 million star systems, then they must have gigantic 'holes' in that domination because they control such a tiny proportion of the planetary systems.


Those holes would be Ork and Chaos controlled presumably. Also the fact that the Inquisition keeps going on about how Exterminatus is an extreme solution precisely because there are so few habitable worlds suggests that there aren't many uncolonised worlds in the galaxy left.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Sturmovic said:


> True, true. However, they didn't live in the Webway either, as Commoragh (only Webway city we know of) was only established after the Fall.
> Which leaves the interesting question of how exactly were the Eldar the dominant species
> of the galaxy if they didn't live in much of the physical galaxy, nor in the Webway.


Well 'domination' doesnt necessarily mean 'colonization.

So if you look at the galaxy map posted above there is an entire spiral arm to the left of the eye of terror that the imperium still doesnt 'control' so my assumption is that the eldar empire was centered on the eye, and maybe the surrounding segment and that spiral arm.

However their DOMINATION over the galaxy was far wider, they were terraforming worlds all over the galaxy for their eventual colonization. You have to consider that time means something completely different to a race that live a long time. So for a human if something hasnt changed in 10 years, it feels like it never will, but for an eldar, they can spend 10 years mastering one tiny aspect of their lives because time means 'less' to them.

Therefore the Eldar empire may not have physically extended much beyond the current area of the eye of terror because they were expanding very slowly because they didnt feel the urge to 'rush', unlike short lived humans.




> Those holes would be Ork and Chaos controlled presumably. Also the fact that the Inquisition keeps going on about how Exterminatus is an extreme solution precisely because there are so few habitable worlds suggests that there aren't many uncolonised worlds in the galaxy left.


I think science would disagree with that...


However we cant coment as science has no basis in 40K.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I dunno if they could claim to rule/dominate/control the galaxy if they're "Empire" was barely outside of the area of what becomes the Eye of Terror.


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

Just wondering, when is WHFB in relation to WH40K time-wise? They were both made in basically the same universe (similar species, same chaos Gods) just different timeline and technology. There is Slaanesh in FB too, so we can asume the Eldar fell long before FB existed. I always thought of the Eldar as pre-existing FB by millions/billions of years. So if 40k is in m41, when is FB?
Of course this is irrelevant if they are counted as completely different, but they are far too similar to do that.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I dunno if they could claim to rule/dominate/control the galaxy if they're "Empire" was barely outside of the area of what becomes the Eye of Terror.


Think about the british empire.

In terms of population of 'british' people about 95% of them were in the UK. However the british empire controlled about 25-30% of the planets surface.

So I imagine vast eldar navies patrolling via the webway in the same was a the british navy patrolled the oceans.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

JAMOB said:


> Just wondering, when is WHFB in relation to WH40K time-wise? They were both made in basically the same universe (similar species, same chaos Gods) just different timeline and technology. There is Slaanesh in FB too, so we can asume the Eldar fell long before FB existed. I always thought of the Eldar as pre-existing FB by millions/billions of years. So if 40k is in m41, when is FB?
> Of course this is irrelevant if they are counted as completely different, but they are far too similar to do that.


Dont forget the very important fact about chaos.

Slaanesh existed BEFORE he was created. Time has no meaning in the warp and thus although he came into existance in the real world at a set time, he had always existed in the warp.


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

Maidel said:


> However their DOMINATION over the galaxy was far wider, they were terraforming worlds all over the galaxy for their eventual colonization. You have to consider that time means something completely different to a race that live a long time. So for a human if something hasnt changed in 10 years, it feels like it never will, but for an eldar, they can spend 10 years mastering one tiny aspect of their lives because time means 'less' to them.
> 
> Therefore the Eldar empire may not have physically extended much beyond the current area of the eye of terror because they were expanding very slowly because they didnt feel the urge to 'rush', unlike short lived humans..


 
But isn't the whole point about the Fall that the Eldar had conquered and achieved everything they ever could, and so turned to decadence, orgies and fierce LAN parties to alleviate their boredom with the galaxy?



Maidel said:


> However we cant coment as science has no basis in 40K.


Indeed. 
2x2=blam!


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Maidel said:


> Think about the british empire.
> 
> In terms of population of 'british' people about 95% of them were in the UK. However the british empire controlled about 25-30% of the planets surface.
> 
> So I imagine vast eldar navies patrolling via the webway in the same was a the british navy patrolled the oceans.


I suppose, but wouldn't of that put them in direct conflict with humanity then? As you said take the british empire for example, we had to fight off the spanish, french, dutch etc to control what we did, if Eldar where that powerful then I'm sure a similar thing would of occurred.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> The entire milky way is almost dominated by the Imperium though in 40k and most of them where originally colonised


The Imperium of Man is the largest current Empire with worlds spread across the entire Galaxy, but you're wrong in saying that the galaxy is almost dominated by the Imperium- the Imperium isn't like a country on earth where all it's territory is defined within certain borders. It's more like isolated pockets spread far and wide, more akin to the Commonwealth than a single country- astronomically Mankind controls the tiniest fraction of the Galaxy.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Sturmovic said:


> But isn't the whole point about the Fall that the Eldar had conquered and achieved everything they ever could, and so turned to decadence, orgies and fierce LAN parties to alleviate their boredom with the galaxy?


Yes and no - they obviously didnt colonize the entire galaxy because there are plenty of mentions of uncolonized maiden worlds - including the one in the HH novels.

And I think they felt they had achieved all they could technologically and got a bit 'bored'.

Hard to say, I dont think we have a detailed account of the fall, just rumours and hearsay.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I suppose, but wouldn't of that put them in direct conflict with humanity then? As you said take the british empire for example, we had to fight off the spanish, french, dutch etc to control what we did, if Eldar where that powerful then I'm sure a similar thing would of occurred.


 
Im sure they did have 'border skirmishes' - dont forget the spanish managed to hold on to an empire not a lot smaller than the UKs for almost as long.

That pretty much proves the point - both the UK and spain were able to hold empires that 'crossed over' trade routes and such without having any 'major' wars post the napoleonic period (and for most of that time they were on the same side).


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Maidel said:


> Im sure they did have 'border skirmishes' - dont forget the spanish managed to hold on to an empire not a lot smaller than the UKs for almost as long.
> 
> That pretty much proves the point - both the UK and spain were able to hold empires that 'crossed over' trade routes and such without having any 'major' wars post the napoleonic period (and for most of that time they were on the same side).


Not really, Spain's "empire" was pretty much a little bit of south america and even that got eroded by the British. Heck Britain held Gibraltar (and still does) despite it being part of the spanish mainland.

France had a bigger one but it still paled in comparison to Britain who had the whole of North America, a lot of the middle east, Australia and new Zealand, all the important islands dotted around the earth like the Falklands. 

Even so I still don't see how both could co-exist without some form of established lore behind it.




Baron Spikey said:


> The Imperium of Man is the largest current Empire with worlds spread across the entire Galaxy, but you're wrong in saying that the galaxy is almost dominated by the Imperium- the Imperium isn't like a country on earth where all it's territory is defined within certain borders. It's more like isolated pockets spread far and wide, more akin to the Commonwealth than a single country- astronomically Mankind controls the tiniest fraction of the Galaxy.


It's the dominant empire in the galaxy, it reaches one from edge to the other. Yes there are holes but if you look at the map or the one inside the latest SM codex it's pretty obvious you could cross the galaxy going from one world to another without possibly even see an unfriendly foe, at least that's my view. I know their are raiders etc but on the whole the Imperium is dominant. 

The map I showed IS the galaxy, that is the milky way.


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

Maidel said:


> Im sure they did have 'border skirmishes' - dont forget the spanish managed to hold on to an empire not a lot smaller than the UKs for almost as long.
> 
> That pretty much proves the point - both the UK and spain were able to hold empires that 'crossed over' trade routes and such without having any 'major' wars post the napoleonic period (and for most of that time they were on the same side).


This then raises the questions of why the eldar are so derogatory to humans, if the human Golden Age was only a few eldar lifespans away from the 41st millenium, and why humanity couldn't piggyback off the eldar to overcome the effects of the warp storms, or even tap into the webway by themselves.
The obvious answer for both is that the eldar are naturally moody and bipolar, but it's still a bit of an awkward situation. 

And slighty off-topic, I think that golden-age humanity would have beat the crud out of the eldar.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Not really, Spain's "empire" was pretty much a little bit of south america and even that got eroded by the British. Heck Britain held Gibraltar (and still does) despite it being part of the spanish mainland.


You and I had a very different history class!


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

gally912 said:


> You and I had a very different history class! *Snip*


Still not much, it really depends on what part in time you think of, that was probably at the height of Spain's power. 

Compare it to the British Empire -










or the French's two distinct time periods which was due to Britain's influence

France at it's peak










France at it's lowest










Also have to notice what type of areas in the Empire, Spain's where limited to arid deserts and a bit of jungle. The British had farm land, as well as dense forested areas for timber, vast area for cattle and horses in Australia etc.

It relations to Eldar and Humanities relationship it's a bit more complicated unless we know more about the worlds, but if we consider maiden worlds to be the best worlds around then just maybe the Eldar limited themselves to them and let humanity have the crappy ones.


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

Much as the Eldar are frail and effeminate like the French, Aren't links with colonial Europe a little tenuous?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Sturmovic said:


> Much as the Eldar are frail and effeminate like the French, Aren't links with colonial Europe a little tenuous?


Just trying to picture the possible relationship between the Eldar and Humanity in the golden age if they really did co-exist.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Still not much, it really depends on what part in time you think of, that was probably at the height of Spain's power.
> 
> Compare it to the British Empire -
> It relations to Eldar and Humanities relationship it's a bit more complicated unless we know more about the worlds, but if we consider maiden worlds to be the best worlds around then just maybe the Eldar limited themselves to them and let humanity have the crappy ones.


 
Erm - the spanish empire is the 4th largest of all time...

british empire 33.7million sqKm

Spanish Empire 20milion sqkm

fRench empire 13 million sqkm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_empires


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Maidel said:


> Erm - the spanish empire is the 4th largest of all time...
> 
> british empire 33.7million sqKm
> 
> ...


Look at the population size though compared to Britain's Empire, even France's had more people. Despite it's size it still had a small population, Britain however had loads more and was bigger, Spain was basically left with the stuff no one else wanted.

Edit: The population given for Britain's is a lot later, apologies but I'd still say they had vastly more people than Spain's or France's Empire.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Look at the population size though compared to Britain's Empire, even France's had more people. Despite it's size it still had a small population, Britain however had loads more and was bigger, Spain was basically left with the stuff no one else wanted.


Really sorry - but, are you serious? The spanish empire came BEFORE the others and it was the sheer quanity of gold they brought back from their empire that got the other european nations into getting their own empires!


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Maidel said:


> Really sorry - but, are you serious? The spanish empire came BEFORE the others and it was the sheer quanity of gold they brought back from their empire that got the other european nations into getting their own empires!


They only plundered though and had to share most of the land with the Portuguese. Most of the gold eventually fell into Britain's hand either way. Yes they got a lot of gold, but they never held on to the good land they had which left them with a large area of land but apart from the gold, it was pretty fruitless.

Also their Empire didn't come first, they explored a great deal but so did Britain and France. The Empires sprung up around the same time but it was Britain's who succeeded the most.


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Just trying to picture the possible relationship between the Eldar and Humanity in the golden age if they really did co-exist.


Fair enough then.

Mass-Effect style council of races maybe?


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Also their Empire didn't come first, they explored a great deal but so did Britain and France. The Empires sprung up around the same time but it was Britain's who succeeded the most.


1512 were the first colonies for the spanish/portugese empire.

1560+ were the first colonies for the british empire.


By 1560 the spanish had peru, mexico, conquered the aztecs, had numerous cities throughout south america, had started in the philipines....


I know a lot of colonial history


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## Dogbeard (Apr 15, 2011)

I'm not exactly sure how this became a comparison of the British and Spanish colonial empires. As an analogy, it's imprecise but not horrible. You could look at the Eldar as Spain, which in the 16th and 17th Centuries really was the uncontested superpower of Europe and the world. Spain colonized much of the most desirable land and pursued mineral wealth (gold and silver), which in the age of mercantilism was the measure of all wealth; ultimately, Spain became a victim of its own success and failed to change with the times. Humanity could be seen as the galactic version of the British in the 17th-19th Centuries: hungry, ruthless, gobbling up pieces of previous empires and anything else they could claim and turn a profit on. I suppose in this analogy, the Orks, Jokaero and Thexians would be France, Portugal and the Dutch.



Words_of_Truth said:


> It's the dominant empire in the galaxy, it reaches one from edge to the other. Yes there are holes but if you look at the map or the one inside the latest SM codex it's pretty obvious you could cross the galaxy going from one world to another without possibly even see an unfriendly foe, at least that's my view. I know their are raiders etc but on the whole the Imperium is dominant.


I'm not really sure the Imperium has a grip on the galaxy as strong as the Mongols on Asia. :wink: Really, though, the distance between Imperial held systems, sub-sectors and sectors is vast, and even by M41 there are literally millions of terrestrial planets in the galaxy on which no human has set foot. We don't really know the full extent of human colonization during the Dark Age of Technology, but we do know that the Imperium is limited by the Astronomican, beyond which lie the Halo Stars.



JAMOB said:


> Just wondering, when is WHFB in relation to WH40K time-wise?...Of course this is irrelevant if they are counted as completely different, but they are far too similar to do that.


I believe GW's official stance is that they are separate, and while they share some commonality, they don't cross. Of course, you could probably drop the Old World of Fantasy somewhere in the 40K galaxy without any real issues.



Maidel said:


> Slaanesh existed BEFORE he was created. Time has no meaning in the warp and thus although he came into existance in the real world at a set time, he had always existed in the warp.


If there is one bit of fluff I despise and regret was ever put into print, it's the line that Slaanesh has essentially always existed and never existed. It's really stupid, ill-conceived and easily refutable. Time must exist within the Warp or the Warp would be absolutely useless as a means of travel; if there was no Time in the Warp, a ship would never come out, ever. The better way to look at it is that Time flows and behaves differently in the Warp and leave it at that without trying to explain the physics of the Warp.

Phew, too long a post.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Dogbeard said:


> If there is one bit of fluff I despise and regret was ever put into print, it's the line that Slaanesh has essentially always existed and never existed. It's really stupid, ill-conceived and easily refutable. Time must exist within the Warp or the Warp would be absolutely useless as a means of travel; if there was no Time in the Warp, a ship would never come out, ever. The better way to look at it is that Time flows and behaves differently in the Warp and leave it at that without trying to explain the physics of the Warp.
> 
> Phew, too long a post.


The Changer of Ways says this: 'Fuck you, I make the rules.' He sounded pretty angry, though I'm never sure with him.


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## Dogbeard (Apr 15, 2011)

Hmm...I didn't know Tzeentch felt so strongly about long posts. :grin:


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Dogbeard said:


> Hmm...I didn't know Tzeentch felt so strongly about long posts. :grin:


Well, the thing is, he keeps changing his mind about it!


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I for one think humanity during the Dark Age of Tech would have given the Eldar a run for their money in a war


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> I for one think humanity during the Dark Age of Tech would have given the Eldar a run for their money in a war


you think wrong.

the only reason the eldar empire is not the dominant empire anymore is simply because of it being blown up by that transvestite chaos god.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Dogbeard said:


> I'm not exactly sure how this became a comparison of the British and Spanish colonial empires. As an analogy, it's imprecise but not horrible. You could look at the Eldar as Spain, which in the 16th and 17th Centuries really was the uncontested superpower of Europe and the world. Spain colonized much of the most desirable land and pursued mineral wealth (gold and silver), which in the age of mercantilism was the measure of all wealth; ultimately, Spain became a victim of its own success and failed to change with the times. Humanity could be seen as the galactic version of the British in the 17th-19th Centuries: hungry, ruthless, gobbling up pieces of previous empires and anything else they could claim and turn a profit on. I suppose in this analogy, the Orks, Jokaero and Thexians would be France, Portugal and the Dutch.
> 
> I'm not really sure the Imperium has a grip on the galaxy as strong as the Mongols on Asia. :wink: Really, though, the distance between Imperial held systems, sub-sectors and sectors is vast, and even by M41 there are literally millions of terrestrial planets in the galaxy on which no human has set foot. We don't really know the full extent of human colonization during the Dark Age of Technology, but we do know that the Imperium is limited by the Astronomican, beyond which lie the Halo Stars.
> 
> ...


Good post man, and I agree on the chaos powers 'always existing and never existing' bit.


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> you think wrong.
> 
> the only reason the eldar empire is not the dominant empire anymore is simply because of it being blown up by that transvestite chaos god.


But the only reason humanity isn't kicking ass is because of some warp storms twelve thousand years ago. If that didn't happen, this is what the battles would be like this:

Autarch-"Attack my brethre..."
Imperial commander-"GRAVITY BOMBS SPAM OLOLOLO"


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Sturmovic said:


> But the only reason humanity isn't kicking ass is because of some warp storms twelve thousand years ago. If that didn't happen, this is what the battles would be like this:
> 
> Autarch-"Attack my brethre..."
> Imperial commander-"GRAVITY BOMBS SPAM OLOLOLO"


Nope, that just doesn't work with the back story. 

Eldar were the most dominant race in the Galaxy for thousands of years, no one could challenge their power, hence the decline and fall. There was no hardship in the main Eldar Empire because no one was a threat. Only the Craftworlds ever saw any real hardship and even that wasn't too bad. 

You have to remember the Dark Age of technology is not the Imperium of today, they weren't so xenophobic and wouldn't have just thrown ships into a meat grinder against the Eldar when they couldn't win. Eldar controlled the space, just didn't live in it.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> Nope, that just doesn't work with the back story.
> 
> Eldar were the most dominant race in the Galaxy for thousands of years, no one could challenge their power, hence the decline and fall. There was no hardship in the main Eldar Empire because no one was a threat. Only the Craftworlds ever saw any real hardship and even that wasn't too bad.
> 
> You have to remember the Dark Age of technology is not the Imperium of today, they weren't so xenophobic and wouldn't have just thrown ships into a meat grinder against the Eldar when they couldn't win. Eldar controlled the space, just didn't live in it.


The only possible way for mankind to kick the Eldar's ass back in the Dark Age of Technology if the fall didn't happen is if mankind was left alone for a lot longer, meaning having time to improve technology even more. I mean, if we follow the technological progress style that we have today, mankind would of only gotten better and better in time. But this is only speculation in the best of conditions.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Sturmovic said:


> But the only reason humanity isn't kicking ass is because of some warp storms twelve thousand years ago.


That is completely not true. The only reason humanities Golden Age occurred was through the grace and ambivalence of the Eldar Empire not through any strength on our part. Humanitiy was a fly to be swatted the moment it grew too troublesome. Humanity at its peak was to the Eldar Empire what the Tau are now, a tolerated nuance, a child taking its first tottering steps into the wider world. 



> If that didn't happen, this is what the battles would be like this:
> 
> Autarch-"Attack my brethre..."
> Imperial commander-"GRAVITY BOMBS SPAM OLOLOLO"


Of course. After all the Eldar have surely never seen technology on the level of a 'gravity bomb'. Never mind the fact that the stars themselves once lived and died to their whims. Never mind the fact that they created cities in a parallel universe. Never mind that their minds could rend asunder any ship humanity sent at them. No "OLOLOLOLO" for the win.



The Eldar Empire was the dominant force in the galaxy. Not because they controlled all of it, they didn't. Indeed it appears their physical empire barely stretched beyond the Eye (still a vast area and given Eldar tech possibly filled with many more planets than one would expect). They were dominant because they had the tech to crush literally anything they didn't want. The Eldar at the height of their civilization were millions of years beyond anything humanity has ever reached. 

Also to address some posts I saw earlier. 

1) Cormorragh was founded pre-Fall. It was a massive commercial hub pre-Fall. The Eldar had several such hubs (most of which have been incorporated into the current Cormorragh).

2) The Eldar didn't co-operate with humanity because they didn't need to. What could we offer them? Which is also why we didn't mooch their tech (never mind that we probably couldn't understand it).

3) The Imperium is, more or less, on a tech level equal to that of Golden Age humanity. We have most of the machines we had then, and new stuff to boot (Marines for example). What is different is our understanding of, and approach to dealing with, that technology.

4) The Eldar that exist now are a post-apocalyptic society in the truest sense of the words. No more than one generation ago their parents ruled the galaxy without opposition. Now, they are forced to scrounge for the scraps of their fallen glory. If a similar situation were to play out on Earth now we can approximate the Craftworlds as small survivor towns, struggling to get by day to day. The fact that these survivor towns still possess the tech to survive in a galaxy actively seeking their destruction, and to press back against the aggression of a peaking human civilization, speaks volumes about what they were capable of back at their peak. Confused and lost Eldar armed with AKs and hatchets are capable of keeping an aggressive, expansive and technologically advanced force bent on their utter destruction at bay. Imagine what the armed forces of such a race would like in comparison (quick hint: robots).


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

MEQinc said:


> 3) The Imperium is, more or less, on a tech level equal to that of Golden Age humanity. We have most of the machines we had then, and new stuff to boot (Marines for example). What is different is our understanding of, and approach to dealing with, that technology.


Actually I believe the Imperium is below what they had during the Golden Age, they actually destroyed a lot of things that where based on STC's during the crusade without realising it. Also I thought there was still a load of STC's out there to be found? Heck didn't Gaunt find one?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Actually I believe the Imperium is below what they had during the Golden Age, they actually destroyed a lot of things that where based on STC's during the crusade without realising it. Also I thought there was still a load of STC's out there to be found? Heck didn't Gaunt find one?


I did say most. Plus, if you think about the way STC tech works there are doubtless hundreds of copies of each. So the idea that all of these copies have been destroyed (or not yet found) is pretty silly. Further we have tech now that did not exist during the Dark Age of Tech. Plasma weapons, variants on tanks, Space Marines, power armoud, etc. All are examples of tech that humanity did not have (or at least didn't have to current levels) pre-Great Crusade.


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## Dogbeard (Apr 15, 2011)

Why would you assume that humanity didn't have some sort of power armor or plasma technology during the Golden Age of Technology? It was likely considerably more advanced than that used by the Imperium in M41. More importantly, there was a broader knowledge and understanding of how the science and technology worked, which was lost during the Age of Strife and not fully (or even remotely) recovered by M41. The Mechanicus are a bit like the monks of the Dark Ages, preserving ancient knowledge and wisdom by rote without (for the most part) delving too deeply into the why and how of it.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Good post man, and I agree on the chaos powers 'always existing and never existing' bit.


Thanks.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

They did have power armour, the Knightly Orders on Caliban used a form of Power armour before the crusade started.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Plasma weapons also did exist - likely in a more stable version. The Dark Age of Technology was Mankind's pinnacle tech-wise. A LOT was lost during the Age of Strife. The Emperor's technology for the Great Crusades did not spring from a vacuum - he stabilized things techwise, temporarily halting further losses, though I don't think all that much progress was made. Mind you, the fact that progress was made at all is a testament to the Emperor's skill at pulling the human civilization back into shape.

After the Horus Heresy, of course, the Imperium went back to losing tech rather than gaining any... 

If you consider that, I find it interesting that it seems the Eldar not only succeeded in effectively killing their own empire, but also their most likely successor's.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Just want to say, that before 30K they didnt have SPACE MARINE style power armour.

MK1 armour was the sort of power armour worn before the emperor took control, and only then did they start to manufacture fully enclosed, life support enabled power armour.

However, that is all dependant on the fact that we dont actually know what happened during the dark age and thus, they could have had much better power armour of which no record still exists.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Shandathe said:


> If you consider that, I find it interesting that it seems the Eldar not only succeeded in effectively killing their own empire, but also their most likely successor's.


Elves in pretty much any genre have shown an incapability to recover from any sort of major disaster, so don't be surprised with the Eldar.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

ThatOtherGuy said:


> Elves in pretty much any genre have shown an incapability to recover from any sort of major disaster, so don't be surprised with the Eldar.


True but they don't usually take another race along with them as we see here.

Though to be fair, it wasn't really the Eldar's fault. If they knew their actions would lead to the birth of slaanesh, I'm sure even the most hedonistic of them would call it quits.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> If they knew their actions would lead to the birth of slaanesh, I'm sure even the most hedonistic of them would call it quits.


Except that they did know, and most didn't care. The Exodites and Craftworlders left explicitly because they knew the end was coming. They tried to warn their brethren but the DE didn't care. 



Words_of_Truth said:


> They did have power armour, the Knightly Orders on Caliban used a form of Power armour before the crusade started.


"form of" being the key there. Self-contained, life-sustaining and fully enclosed Power Armour did not exist before the Emperor created it. The same is true of Bolt weapons (which existed at a basic level) and almost everything else that Marines use. Given the sheer lethality of Marines in combat I think it's fair to say that the Imperiums military capabilities are technologically equal to (if not superior to) those of Golden Age humanity.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

MEQinc said:


> "form of" being the key there. Self-contained, life-sustaining and fully enclosed Power Armour did not exist before the Emperor created it. The same is true of Bolt weapons (which existed at a basic level) and almost everything else that Marines use. Given the sheer lethality of Marines in combat I think it's fair to say that the Imperiums military capabilities are technologically equal to (if not superior to) those of Golden Age humanity.


That wasn't the point though.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> "form of" being the key there. Self-contained, life-sustaining and fully enclosed Power Armour did not exist before the Emperor created it. The same is true of Bolt weapons (which existed at a basic level) and almost everything else that Marines use. Given the sheer lethality of Marines in combat I think it's fair to say that the Imperiums military capabilities are technologically equal to (if not superior to) those of Golden Age humanity.


Ah - you see that was the point I made - however -as there are no detailed records of the 'golden age' we dont know if fully enclosed power armour had already been invented and then lost, only for the emperor to re-invent it.

Its like the romans and flushing toilets and concrete and underfloor heating and a whole load of other 'inventions'.

We had people making 'discoverys' in the 17th-20th century only for archeologists to later find that the romans had made it first, and we had 're-invented' it entirely independantly of them.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Maidel said:


> Ah - you see that was the point I made - however -as there are no detailed records of the 'golden age' we dont know if fully enclosed power armour had already been invented and then lost, only for the emperor to re-invent it.
> 
> Its like the romans and flushing toilets and concrete and underfloor heating and a whole load of other 'inventions'.
> 
> We had people making 'discoverys' in the 17th-20th century only for archeologists to later find that the romans had made it first, and we had 're-invented' it entirely independantly of them.


Well the power armour the knight orders used could be enclosed to stop them from burning alive inside, but due to the age of them most lost that ability. There's a direct comment in Descent of Angels where Zachariel notes the remarkable similarity between their armour and that of the Space Marines. 

Since any able bodied man could use the orders power armour I'd suggest it was armour that could of been distributed to common soldiers which would show a distinct advance to what current Imperial Guard use, but that's mere speculation on my part.


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> That is completely not true. The only reason humanities Golden Age occurred was through the grace and ambivalence of the Eldar Empire not through any strength on our part. Humanitiy was a fly to be swatted the moment it grew too troublesome. Humanity at its peak was to the Eldar Empire what the Tau are now, a tolerated nuance, a child taking its first tottering steps into the wider world.


Except for the fact that the Eldar ruled the Eye of Terror.....and humanity ruled everything else. If they coexisted at all.



MEQinc said:


> Of course. After all the Eldar have surely never seen technology on the level of a 'gravity bomb'. Never mind the fact that the stars themselves once lived and died to their whims. Never mind the fact that they created cities in a parallel universe. Never mind that their minds could rend asunder any ship humanity sent at them. No "OLOLOLOLO" for the win.


But the Eldar level of tech was the same as the one we see now, whereas humanity was hugely more advanced. As for the Webway, well I don't remember anything big being built there except Commoragh (plus a few sattelite hamlets). Furthermore, it's not as Eldar actually invented the Webway, they just use it.



MEQinc said:


> 1) Cormorragh was founded pre-Fall. It was a massive commercial hub pre-Fall. The Eldar had several such hubs (most of which have been incorporated into the current Cormorragh)..


Lexicanum explicitly states to the contrary. I wouldn't claim to know where they got it from, but there we go.




MEQinc said:


> 3) The Imperium is, more or less, on a tech level equal to that of Golden Age humanity. We have most of the machines we had then, and new stuff to boot (Marines for example). What is different is our understanding of, and approach to dealing with, that technology.)..


No way near, amigo. Golden Age humanity had robots, stealth ships, super Titans, gravity bombs, super viruses and so on. And that's just the stuff we know. The Eldar meanwhile remain on the level they were since the dawn of time. You'd think they could have actually invented something new.

As for the power armour, remember that it ultimately descends from techno-barbarians. Indeed, it's one of the deeper points about Warhammer 40k-even when presented with amazing technology, man will refuse to understand it and use it to make basically medieval armour. The exploration of this Dark Age mentality is one of the things that makes this franchise awesome.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

Not really following this convo that much, but Lexicanum is hardly the most reliable source. It's a wiki, which means that anyone can post up what they want, and the information could easily be out-of-date.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

> But the Eldar level of tech was the same as the one we see now, whereas humanity was hugely more advanced. As for the Webway, well I don't remember anything big being built there except Commoragh (plus a few sattelite hamlets). Furthermore, it's not as Eldar actually invented the Webway, they just use it.
> 
> The Eldar meanwhile remain on the level they were since the dawn of time. You'd think they could have actually invented something new.


Actually, I dont think thats true. The eldar at one point certainly had much more 'power'. I dont know if thats a technology thing, or a simply lack of raw power, but they were able to do things like kill suns before the fall - thats not something they appear to be able to do now.




> Lexicanum explicitly states to the contrary. I wouldn't claim to know where they got it from, but there we go.


And lexicanum would be wrong...

Current dark eldar codex P8:

"Commorraghs origins date back to the zenith of the eldar."

"Was orginally the createst of the webwat portal cities, able to transport a fleet to any of the most vital planets of the eldar empire."


Therefore commorragh predates the fall by a heck of a long way.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> True but they don't usually take another race along with them as we see here.
> 
> Though to be fair, it wasn't really the Eldar's fault. If they knew their actions would lead to the birth of slaanesh, I'm sure even the most hedonistic of them would call it quits.


Yeah, its wasn't their fault, it was the beer's fault.

"Hey guys, we are terribly sorry for creating the god of cumming to death, but hey, it wasn't really our fault... it was the alcohol."


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

Maidel said:


> Actually, I dont think thats true. The eldar at one point certainly had much more 'power'. I dont know if thats a technology thing, or a simply lack of raw power, but they were able to do things like kill suns before the fall - thats not something they appear to be able to do now..


That's speculation. I just get the feeling that the Eldar don't try in regards to technology. Commoragh is lit by artificial suns but nobody gives a toss, and they haven't lost or gained any tech that we can see since the Fall.

Hence their warcry in DOW2-"They know the science of war, but not the art".



Maidel said:


> And lexicanum would be wrong...
> 
> Current dark eldar codex P8:
> 
> ...


Guess I was wrong then (or Lexicanum is simply outdated?).
The Eldar still didn't actually build the Webway though.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

ThatOtherGuy said:


> Yeah, its wasn't their fault, it was the beer's fault.
> 
> "Hey guys, we are terribly sorry for creating the *god of cumming to death*, but hey, it wasn't really our fault... it was the alcohol."


Thats a new one, blunt, but new lol.


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## presc1ence (May 23, 2010)

Maidel said:


> Just want to say, that before 30K they didnt have SPACE MARINE style power armour.


In the 1st ( i think) HH book, Horus has to crush a techonologically advanced society that has power armour. Loken even make comments about them looking like tiny SM's.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Sturmovic said:


> That's speculation. I just get the feeling that the Eldar don't try in regards to technology. Commoragh is lit by artificial suns but nobody gives a toss, and they haven't lost or gained any tech that we can see since the Fall.
> 
> Hence their warcry in DOW2-"They know the science of war, but not the art".


Its not speculation. I dont think the eldar have lost 'technology' - they certainly still know how to do all the things they used to be able to (I mean its only been 10 generations since the fall). However they have certainly lost the ability to do things.

So, although they know how to kill suns, they cant anymore - why, well we dont know. Perhaps it is a pure power thing - they dont have enough minds, or enough worlds to produce the power they need to do that again, or perhaps they simply cant build a big enough gun anymore.

Its like a mechanicus engineer being trapped on a back water planet with the plans to build a titan. He knows how to, he has the plans to do so, but he doesnt have the ability to do so - thats how I see the eldar race.




> Guess I was wrong then (or Lexicanum is simply outdated?).


I use lexicanum to get a the 'gist' of things, and then I use it to find the sources they quote. I have every codex and almost every rule book ever published by GW - so I can use it as a reference section for my library. I never use it for facts.



> The Eldar still didn't actually build the Webway though.


Absolutely not. Never said they did.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Sturmovic said:


> Except for the fact that the Eldar ruled the Eye of Terror.....and humanity ruled everything else. If they coexisted at all.


There is nothing that states that Humanity ruled the whole of the Galaxy during the DAoT. The evidence seems to point more to Humanity being like the Imperium is now, scattered worlds in the void, as the Emperors Crusade was to reunite the worlds of Humanity. Plus Warp travel is random at best, and we know that's the main means of travel during the DAoT.



> But the Eldar level of tech was the same as the one we see now, whereas humanity was hugely more advanced. As for the Webway, well I don't remember anything big being built there except Commoragh (plus a few sattelite hamlets). Furthermore, it's not as Eldar actually invented the Webway, they just use it.


I actually doubt that the Eldar level of Technology is the same as before the Fall. Think about what could have been lost from the Fall. The worlds that are in the Eye of Terror were the main worlds of the Eldar Empire, most likely have the capabilities to build the most advanced of Eldar Technologies. We know the Eldar had the technology to capture and move Stars, but that is not a technology currently used by either Eldar or Dark Eldar. The best example of this in game is the Shattershard used by the Dark Eldar, it's made from the shattered pieces a transdimensional portal called the Mirror of Planes. I doubt the Eldar have made another one since the Fall.




Sturmovic said:


> That's speculation. I just get the feeling that the Eldar don't try in regards to technology. Commoragh is lit by artificial suns but nobody gives a toss, and they haven't lost or gained any tech that we can see since the Fall.
> 
> Hence their warcry in DOW2-"They know the science of war, but not the art".


Commoragh is lit by dying sons moved from Real Space into the Webway (From the 5th ed DE codex page 9). If that's not "trying" with Technology I don't know what is.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Except that they did know, and most didn't care. The Exodites and Craftworlders left explicitly because they knew the end was coming. They tried to warn their brethren but the DE didn't care.


Where is it stated that they knew that their actions would cause the birth of a chaos power with a giant focus on their race? The warnings of the Old ones became legend and myths to them. It's your typical cliched story where the people in question doubt/mock the words of the wise man until it is too late.

The exodites left because they did not like what their race was becoming and they realized how dangerous they started to become. 

They probably thought once the Eldar got bored with whatever they were doing, they would focus on killing/torturing each other if that did not already occur pre-Fall.


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

The Craftworld Eldar foresaw it though, as per Codex Eldar. Of course, many of them hadn't foreseen just quite how bad it would be, and most of the Craftworlds were still overwhelmed by Slaanesh's birth, but them's the breaks


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Something to consider... How many of you would change your ways if tomorrow you met a man on the street who warned you that humanity is dooming itself on it's current path?

It's probably among the lines of 'oh joy, another semi-religious nutjob domsayer' and you'd ignore him and wish he'd go away and not bother you anymore. You might even be pleasantly surprised when he does exactly that. 

And that's probably about how most of the Eldar must have considered the ones that left on the Craftworlds.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

On the Dark Age of Technology humanity... wasn't the point of the STCs that there wasn't really a cohesive empire/civilization? Just a bunch of colonists going out to do what we humans love to do... breed.

On another note about those humans, from the nature of the planets described in the Horus Heresy, the Eldar wouldn't want to live there anyway. The Mechanicus only looked for planets with material resources and didn't seem to care about the beauty and I've yet to hear a planet with a Primarch being deposited on it that you'd actually want to live on.

Oh, and the Interex describes successful long-term interactions with the Eldar in what seems like a distant uncle relationship. Then in Alpha Legion, the Eldar in the Cabal (I forget the name) talks with dismay about not strangling the infant humanity in it's crib, so to speak.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Shandathe said:


> The Craftworld Eldar foresaw it though, as per Codex Eldar. Of course, many of them hadn't foreseen just quite how bad it would be, and most of the Craftworlds were still overwhelmed by Slaanesh's birth, but them's the breaks


Yeah I'm not saying no one predicted slaanesh's birth but I'm talking about the majority of the hedonistic Eldar. I guarantee you, if they looked into a crystal ball showing them exactly what slaanesh is and what he would do to their race, they would stop their actions.



Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> On the Dark Age of Technology humanity... wasn't the point of the STCs that there wasn't really a cohesive empire/civilization? Just a bunch of colonists going out to do what we humans love to do... breed.


Pre-Emperor, the colonists had colonized a large sum of planets and the Emperor's crusade aimed to take back those planets and some more. So no there wasn't an empire pre-Emperor but the Emperor needed those planets to serve as his foundation for his Imperium.



Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> On another note about those humans, from the nature of the planets described in the Horus Heresy, the Eldar wouldn't want to live there anyway. The Mechanicus only looked for planets with material resources and didn't seem to care about the beauty and I've yet to hear a planet with a Primarch being deposited on it that you'd actually want to live on.


A lot of the planets in the Imperium's possession used to be maiden worlds belonging to the Eldar before they became industrialized.

Lorgar had a decent planet, Guilliman had several, Prospero was beautiful by all means, Russ's planet had this untouched Alaskan/Antarctic aspect to it, the Lion's planet was all jungle, and yeah I think those are the only Primarchs with pretty/decent looking planets. Possibly Fulgrim's planet too once he finished working on it.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> That wasn't the point though.


Well it was my point, sorry if that wasn`t clear.



Sturmovic said:


> Except for the fact that the Eldar ruled the Eye of Terror.....and humanity ruled everything else. If they coexisted at all.


I think you need to reconsider what you call 'ruling'. Humanity had lots of colonies sure. But I contend that until the creation of the Imperium humanity didn`t have a unified galactic empire. The Eldar did. Basically humanity breeds like rabbits compared to the Eldar so we needed the planets, however we didn`t (and still don`t really) have the tech/ability/will to unify this collection of worlds. The Eldar conversly had the tech/ability/will to create a unified Empire of a scale rivaled only by the Imperium but didn`t have the numbers to fully colonize the galaxy. Who would you say rules Australia, the sheep/rabits or humans?



> But the Eldar level of tech was the same as the one we see now, whereas humanity was hugely more advanced.


That is patently wrong. Did you miss the part of them being a post-apocalyptic society? Do you honestly expect them to have maintained their tech through a holocaust that ripped a freaking hole in reality? The Eldar now are to the Eldar Empire what the survivors of a nuclear war would be to America. The tech is lost, the ability to use what tech still exists is diminished, the unity is gone, the common purpose is gone. 



> As for the Webway, well I don't remember anything big being built there except Commoragh (plus a few sattelite hamlets).


The new DE codex sheds quite a bit of new light on the Eldar in their just pre-Fall days. They had several trade hubs.



> Furthermore, it's not as Eldar actually invented the Webway, they just use it.


I completely fail to see the purpose of this statement. No one has stated that the Eldar created the webway. Further it`s not like humanity invented the warp but the Eldar can use and colonize the webway, good luck doing that with the warp.



> No way near, amigo. Golden Age humanity had robots, stealth ships, super Titans, gravity bombs, super viruses and so on. And that's just the stuff we know.


Each and every single thing you mentioned still exists in the Imperium. Servitors, Dispersion field cloaked ships, Imperiators, Cyclonic torpedoes, Life Eater. Try again.



> The Eldar meanwhile remain on the level they were since the dawn of time. You'd think they could have actually invented something new.


Do you have anything that even remotely resembles a source for this?

The Eldar race has survived two galactic apocalypses. Last time they rebuilt to a galactic superpower. To suggest that they have invented nothing in the millions of years of their society is complete folly.



Sturmovic said:


> That's speculation. I just get the feeling that the Eldar don't try in regards to technology. Commoragh is lit by artificial suns but nobody gives a toss, and they haven't lost or gained any tech that we can see since the Fall.


1) Nobody cares that they sucked suns into a parallel universe but that suggests that the tech is/was rare to them?
2) The Fall was mere generations ago to the Eldar. There tech level has remained fairly steady since because, for them, it was like twenty years ago that they suffered a nuclear war.
3) Don`t try? Care to be more specific? Don`t try as in; they can do this crazy stuff without apparent effort, or; don`t put effort into crafting new tech whilst recovering from an apocalypse. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> Yeah I'm not saying no one predicted slaanesh's birth but I'm talking about the majority of the hedonistic Eldar. I guarantee you, if they looked into a crystal ball showing them exactly what slaanesh is and what he would do to their race, they would stop their actions.


To the Eldar the craftworlders are the crazy guys who stand around shouting that the world is going to end. Doesn`t matter how much math those guys hold up, we still all choose not to believe them. Do you really think it was any different for the Eldar. Life was good, why change just cause the dirty, crazy guy has a sign saying 'The End is Nigh'?


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## Dogbeard (Apr 15, 2011)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> On the Dark Age of Technology humanity... wasn't the point of the STCs that there wasn't really a cohesive empire/civilization? Just a bunch of colonists going out to do what we humans love to do... breed.


We just don't know. We don't know if there was a central government or authority, an empire, several empires, a galactic republic, several republics, a matrilineal oligarchy, a kleptocratic commonwealth, an anarcho-capitalist netocracy, or all of the above at various points in history or all at once. About the only thing we do know for certain was that _someone_ was making STCs...probably Vault-Tec or Sirius Cybernetics Corporation.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

MEQinc said:


> Well it was my point, sorry if that wasn`t clear


The point I was making was that the Imperium did have a form of power armour, the Emperor didn't suddenly make up all these things prior to launching his crusade. It's true that he made the first proto-marines but the general technology was present, he just advanced them. 

As someone stated, the very first Heresy book has marines and even their own form of custodians with personal stealth fields, which suggests that there was better power armour than what the Caliban orders used as well.

When we say robots, we're on about artificial technology, actual robots, not part human part cybernetics which border on robotics. Stuff like the crystal robots that fire lightning out and where in fact created due to a prophecy of the Unification Wars on Terra where the lightning bolt was his sign.

The Imperium has not really stepped forward much, certain things have progressed but only to the limit of their ability, nothing is being invented where as a lot of things are being lost due to the nature of how information is contained (Such as this forgeworld is the only one who knows how to build it but they won't share it and then the forgeworld is captured etc and the information is lost)

The Eldar's form of technology is based on their bonesingers who can mold their wraithbone material. It's entirely possible that knowledge of constructing such things where lost during the fall as I'm assuming their source of information is relayed via word of mouth or direct interface into the main spirit structure of the object or something a long those lines.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> ]
> Each and every single thing you mentioned still exists in the Imperium. Servitors, Dispersion field cloaked ships, Imperiators, Cyclonic torpedoes, Life Eater. Try again.


Servitors are not the same as the Golden Age robots. Servitors are human stock with so much mechanics and machinery built in that they look like robots, but they are not. They do not posses AI, only dumbed down brain functions. The Golden Age Iron Men possessed AI and far better tech, and according to how many wars they won without even trying, proved to be much superior then Imperium Servitors.


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