# Was the Lion one of the Primarchs in "the First Heretic"? Possibly not (spoilers)



## Geeknerd21 (Apr 17, 2011)

*Was the Lion one of the Primarchs in "the First Heretic"? Possibly not (spoilers)*

Hello all, I have been reading some of the various discussions on the scene of the primarch pods crashing in the book "the First Heretic." Now it seems generally agreed upon that the 10 pods depicted are the nine primarchs of the traitor legions as well as Lion El'Johnson, leading to all kinds of speculation and conjecture as to why the chaos gods showed The Lion in the vision. This is all very cool. HOWEVER, there is one major flaw with this argument.

In The First Heretic, the primarch in question is described as "pale of skin and fierce of eye. His hair was as black as the armor of the warriors he would grow to lead." Now, for some reason I have always pictured The Lion as having black hair, but when I went back and checked "Fallen Angels" The Lion is described as "His hair was shining gold, falling in heavy curls to his broad shoulders, and his skin was as pale and as smooth as alabaster."

Both descriptions include pale skin, but a completely different hair color! So Is it the Lion emerging from the pod in the first Heretic or not. Maybe his hair changed color or he dyed it (are primarchs above vanity)? The description in the First Heretic also seems to be describing Corax, as he has dark hair, pale skin, black eyes and leads a legion of black armored warriors. This would make sense as Corax appears later in the book. However I think the fluff states that Corax's pod crashed on a desolate moon, not a forest.

My final possible explanation is that the primarch described is not The Lion or Corax but one of the two missing primarchs (II an XI legions). This would make sense as I have seen speculation in the past that, if not lost, one of the two would have been loyal to the throne and one would have turned to Chaos. Thus the Chaos gods where showing the ten traitor primarchs. 

What does everyone think? Please discuss. Also sorry for the long post.


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## sonn (Nov 25, 2010)

That Primarch is supposed to be the Lion, this is from from another thread. I don't think outside of some hints BL will ever directly talk about the fate of the Lost Primarchs. 


> Originally Posted by *ADB*
> _In regards to ther Lions pod alongside the other traitor pods in the first heretic:
> 
> I can help shed some light on this, but yeah, that's the clearest explanation. Essentially, I envisage Caliban is a fairly tainted world, so the Chaos Gods have their talons into the Lion from the start - they bring him down onto Caliban, after all: a world plagued by Great Beasts and not exactly a million miles from the newborn Eye of Terror. He's one of the most obvious choices for corruption.
> ...


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## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

By the sound of the description you are talking about: Pale skin, Sharp Eyes, Black hair and black armour. I would say that is describing Konrad Curze instead of Lion.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

The first pod does contain Lion'el Johnson, and i believe the visions of the pods falling are in numbered order (primarch creation numbers) so Johnson is first, and then Fulgrim's pad is shown falling (as Fulgrim was the third primarch through the Emperor's creation) and after Fuglrim is Perturabo (who is fourth). So the first pod cannot contain neither Corax nor Konrad.

As for the colour of Johnson's hair several sources contradict each other by either saying black or blonde, or it could be that he changes it while growing up on Caliban...


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

revan4559 said:


> By the sound of the description you are talking about: Pale skin, Sharp Eyes, Black hair and black armour. I would say that is describing Konrad Curze instead of Lion.


It's definitely not Curze. He appears latter on a world of perpetual night and is the only Primarch to arm himself open seeing the distant city.

The mystery Primarch is almost certainly the Lion as that is what ADB himself indicates. As for the hair thing, I would speculate that it changes as a result of one of two things. The first is the natural (or not) corruption of Caliban could create all kinds of minor changes. The second idea is similar but faults the Primarchs enhanced growth rate, which appears to adapt to local environments at a frankly ridiculous rate. Just look at the major changes that occurred to Curze's vision and I think a minor change in hair colour isn't out of the realm of possibility.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Ferrus is spot on. I had this discussion a while back in my local GW. Me and a friend there actually went through the descriptions of the infant Primarchs whilst looking at the table of Legions in C:SM. It was an exact match! Also (obviously!), it only lists the traitor-Primarchs; Jonson was chucked in, I believe, because ADB liked the idea of him being a secret traitor and put it in, although only as a bit of fun and just something to keep interest in this possinility bubbling-under.

GFP


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Ferrus is spot on. I had this discussion a while back in my local GW. Me and a friend there actually went through the descriptions of the infant Primarchs whilst looking at the table of Legions in C:SM. It was an exact match! Also (obviously!), it only lists the traitor-Primarchs; Jonson was chucked in, I believe, because ADB liked the idea of him being a secret traitor and put it in, although only as a bit of fun and just something to keep interest in this possinility bubbling-under.
> 
> GFP


And of course in _Age of Darkness_ the question of the Lion's loyalty is answered forever more.

(Also his hair is a described as a dirty blond in _Age of Darkness_ compared to his dark locks in _The First Heretic_)


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Well its not impossible to change haircolor. I started out as blonde as a kid up until I was around 4, then it changed. The Lion was on the planet for at least a 130 years, not impossible for it change during that time.


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## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

I believe that chaos did try to corrupt the lion, it did on several occasions, by putting him on a corrupt world, in age of darkness curz tries by trying to ruin his reputation and telling him how he is his closest brother. 



Geeknerd21 said:


> (are primarchs above vanity)?


No, they are not, they may have superhuman qualities but their strengths are mirrored in their flaws which are just as spectacular. I mean Fulgrim was wearing make up and dressing like a 'pantomime primarch'. 

Don't get me wrong, some primarchs like Russ, Ferus Mannus, Vulcan, Curze, Mortarion & Angron probably couldn't care less about how they looked. Apart from hoping that they looked scary. And I imagine Lion was the same. 

Fulgrim was vain, Horus kept up the image of a war god, Ferrus Mannus said that he left being pretty up to Fulgrim and Sanguinius. Also in Horus Rising I remember some Blood Angel trying to paint tears on his face but San refuses telling him the tears are real. Sissy.


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## Geeknerd21 (Apr 17, 2011)

Good points everyone, especially Raider1987. Fulgrim was about as vain as they come.

I believe that it was The Lion in the scene. However, just for a bit of fun speculation, isn't it possible that it is one of the two missing primarchs? I mean, what do we know about them? Virtually nothing. It could very well be that one had dark hair and fierce eyes and led a legion of black armored warriors. Also this would not be BL giving away anything about the lost primarchs because you don't know any other details, or even if it actually was one.

Anyway, like I said, i believe that ADB meant it to be the Lion, but I love any hints and speculation to the missing Primarchs when it occurs in BL. The First Heretic blew my mind when it was hinted that the Ultramarines -possibly- absorbed the remaining warriors of the II and XI legions.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

Well the whole talk about the ultramarines absorbing marines from the two missing legions was i believe confirmed to be them just joking around.

And i actually i really liked that the Chaos Gods tried to corrupt Lion'el from the very beginning, first of all because it was interesting and slightly surprising  , but secondly because it revived the whole speculation that Johnson was a traitor (following from the accusation from Astlellan in the book: "Angel of Darkness"), and i think a story in "Age of Darkness" also questions the Lion's loyalty. But this has added a whole mysterious and intriguing feel to Lion'el.

Edit: I also just quickly glanced through TFH and i think i accurately counted that 10 pods are shown to fall (so the 10 primarchs which the Chaos Gods tried to corrupt from the beginning), the 10 pods equal Lion'el Johnson and the 9 primarchs that eventually turned traitor so the two missing primarchs were never being corrupted from the beginning


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Ferrus Manus said:


> Well the whole talk about the ultramarines absorbing marines from the two missing legions was i believe confirmed to be them just joking around.
> 
> And i actually i really liked that the Chaos Gods tried to corrupt Lion'el from the very beginning, first of all because it was interesting and slightly surprising  , but secondly because it revived the whole speculation that Johnson was a traitor (following from the accusation from Astlellan in the book: "Angel of Darkness"), and i think a story in "Age of Darkness" also questions the Lion's loyalty. But this has added a whole mysterious and intriguing feel to Lion'el.
> 
> Edit: I also just quickly glanced through TFH and i think i accurately counted that 10 pods are shown to fall (so the 10 primarchs which the Chaos Gods tried to corrupt from the beginning), the 10 pods equal Lion'el Johnson and the 9 primarchs that eventually turned traitor so the two missing primarchs were never being corrupted from the beginning


Actually the story in _*Age of Darkness*_ answers the question as to whether the Lion was a traitor or fence sitter.



The answer being that he is neither, he is staunchly loyal to the Emperor


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Actually the story in _*Age of Darkness*_ answers the question as to whether the Lion was a traitor or fence sitter.
> 
> 
> 
> The answer being that he is neither, he is staunchly loyal to the Emperor


lol. That was funny. Good way to trick a spoiler.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> Actually the story in _*Age of Darkness*_ answers the question as to whether the Lion was a traitor or fence sitter.
> 
> 
> 
> The answer being that he is neither, he is staunchly loyal to the Emperor


Ah well at least that is answered, but in my opinion it would have been a lot more interesting if he was a fence sitter


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Didn't want to create a new thread and this one is the same topic but a different aspect.

Anyway, so Horus was found quite quickly at the beginning of the crusade and he and the Emperor were the only ones for roughly the first 3 decades. Now this brings me to the Lion. He only joined the crusade about 50 years before the heresy. 

This got me thinking that the Emperor must have actually found Horus before the Lion even reached Caliban. Luther found the young Lion and he was still fighting fit by the time the Emperor arrived. Even if Luther was a very young knight at the time, only a few decades could have past before the coming of the Emperor. And I'm sure that there's no way a young Lion would be running around Caliban for over a century and then suddenly mature when he comes into contact with civilisation. 

So that would mean that while Horus (and perhaps some other primarchs) were already busy conquering the galaxy while the Lion was still stewing in the warp. What this implies I have no idea but, to me, it's something interesting to consider. How about you guys? What are your views?


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

There's also the odd effect that Warp travel can have on the time elapsed for those travelling through it. People can move forward, bacwards or even stand still. There's also the fact that Primarchs appear to be incredibly long-lived, even though they grow incredibly fast. Even taking 50 years to be found, a Primarch will be in the prime of life when found by the Emperor.

GFP


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

That's exactly it. Primarchs grow quickly and Luther found the Lion while he was still a kid. Also, like I said, Luther found him when he was already a knight and was still considered to be a knight at his prime when the Emperor came. So the Lion couldn't have been on Caliban for more than a few decades before the Crusade pitched up. Thus my point that Horus and some other primarchs may very well have been participating in the Great Crusade before the Lion even stepped foot on a planet.

It's true that, with the time flow in the warp, the Lion might only have been in the warp for a few seconds even, but the fact remains that a lot of time passed in real space before he popped out and landed on Caliban.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I thought it was interesting and _TfH_ took me a day longer to read because of this. :laugh: 

I spent so long trying to tie in all those descriptions, half an hour to confirm the rest but the first one was just too perplexing for me to understand fully. It made sense to me that it`d be one of the missing primarchs, but then it described Lion perfectly. I had reasoned that Chaos would not care for the Imperial record expunging and would show the missing traitor (which is all but confirmed at this point). I was elated that at last some light had been shed. 

Then ADB sez "Nah, it`s just El Johnson." :laugh: 

Oh well, I`ll keep an eye out...


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

ADB's quite the rumor/mystery destroyer lol.

Though I'm pretty sure GW implied that all the Primarchs crash landed on their respective planets around the same time but given the vast timeline of the WH40k universe, a few numbers got tossed around.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Some rumours are redundant. Missing Primarchs being one of them. I want answers.


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