# Baneblade + SMs question



## Raptors8th (Jul 3, 2009)

Just curious about this because someone at the local store has two Banebldes painted in SWs colors, complete with wolf pelts and a SW sticking out the top. Do SM chapters maintain any Super-Heavies (Baneblade, Stormlord, Hellhammer, etc.)

+rep for anyone who can give me an official fluff cite.


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## Tigirus (Apr 13, 2008)

Hmm... I dunno about baneblades, but Pre-heresy the legions had fellblades which were quite similar. Some space marine chapters might still have some still working one or could have replaced them with baneblades. I haven't actually seen any fluff on it though.

sorry I can't be of more help


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## Gul Torgo (Mar 31, 2008)

Space Wolves are one of the original legions, so it's actually fairly reasonable that they would have some Fellblades on hand.


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## Sytus (Aug 27, 2009)

Well,considering some chapters can sequester tanks from guard regiments in times of great need, the wolves may simply have...redecorated said Baneblade.
I do remember there was a Crimson Fists Baneblade involved in the Tale Of Four Gamers in last years WD December,the records may still be on the GW site.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

the only super heavies marines have is the thunderhawk gunship, they do not have and are not allowed to have baneblades fluffwise at all, and the very large majority do not have fellblades, only those that really ignore Gulliman probably have 1 or maybe 2 rusting away, but I doubt they would be used much if at all as marines have no way to transport them down to a planet and do not fit the whole strike force theme.

the only way marines would have baneblades rolling along side them is if there own PDF force (like the ultramarine one) is equipped with them, as they would most likely get some of the best equipment, but they would not be crewed by space marines ever.


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## jack (Oct 30, 2008)

They could requsition them from local guard forces. I'm guessing a chapter master outranks a guard colenel.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Well since theyre only available in Apocalypse level games i wouldn't worry. I have a friend who likes to field three Black Legion Baneblades crewed by Marines along with his Traitor Guard and Black Legion armies during apocalypse battles. And really if you think about it Who's to say that Marines don't have super heavies stashed on their homeworlds for last ditch defence. 

I bet they look bitchin all wolfed out though. (Starts looking for a Baneblade done in Blood Angels colours)


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

jack said:


> They could requsition them from local guard forces. I'm guessing a chapter master outranks a guard colenel.


if its against the rules laid down by gulliman I actually think a colonel has every right to turn around and say "no" then just show the space marine the book where it says why he can't have one, now handing a platoon of men and a baneblade crewed by guardsmen into the chapter masters temporary command would probably be acceptable, but not to have the marines crew the vehicle.

unless all the crew were somehow killed and the marines use the vehicle with the full intention of handing it back over.

the codex astartes is very clear on who can use what and who cannot, and it would be the job of the imperial command or astartes command to be aware of there limits on what they can and cannot request.


Coder59 said:


> And really if you think about it Who's to say that Marines don't have super heavies stashed on their homeworlds for last ditch defence.


the Guilliman


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## Raptors8th (Jul 3, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> if its against the rules laid down by gulliman I actually think a colonel has every right to turn around and say "no" then just show the space marine the book where it says why he can't have one


F**k Guilleman and his holly shit, they're SW.

Anyone know where Fellblade fluff is?


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> the Guilliman


Not everybody likes Mr Guilliman though. Least of all the Fenrisians. There are a few chapters who just went "NAFF OFF!" And did things their way.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Raptors8th said:


> F**k Guilleman and his holly shit, they're SW.





Coder59 said:


> Not everybody likes Mr Guilliman though. Least of all the Fenrisians. There are a few chapters who just went "NAFF OFF!" And did things their way.


maybe so, but to get a baneblade you have to ask a forgeworld which would follow the codex, no matter who you are, so when the wolves phone up a forge world and order a baneblade with extra cheese, the most likely answer would be a simple "umm.....no, your not allowed" then they would hang up


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> maybe so, but to get a baneblade you have to ask a forgeworld which would follow the codex, no matter who you are, so when the wolves phone up a forge world and order a baneblade with extra cheese, the most likely answer would be a simple "umm.....no, your not allowed" then they would hang up


Unless the Forge World owed the wolves a favour. Space Marine Chapters have a lot of clout in that department.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Coder59 said:


> Unless the Forge World owed the wolves a favour. Space Marine Chapters have a lot of clout in that department.


well I'd like to know how there sneak a baneblade past when the commissars come a knockin
"is that a baneblade under that loose fitting suspicious looking tarpaulin the size of a house trooper?"
"ummm....no sir its a umm......stake of crates.....filled with umm.......cream cakes....yes cream cakes, fenrissian cream cakes...sir"
*commissar looks suspiciously*........."ok" *walks away*


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## Raptors8th (Jul 3, 2009)

Except he (theoretical Commissar or Imperial official) would have to go talk to Logan Grimnar, who's not only twice his size and carrying a hefty axe but is also one of the most liked guys in the galaxy. And lots of people owe him favors for saving their a**es. Who knows, one of those people might happen to be high up in a Forge World government...


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

With regards the original fluff, I have only seen official fluff in one area and that is the Horus heresy Visions of heresy artbooks. I have the collected visions book and there are pictures of a couple of fellblades in legion liveries. That is not to say there isn't more elsewhere but that is all I have ever found. Please note that these artworks are a little older than our current fluff. The fellblade in the book is recognisable as similar in weapons configuration to a baneblade but there the similarities end. They are not recognisable as a known baneblade hull pattern. The datasheet for the fellblade originated on the BOLS website and in my opinion is just an extension of the fluff I mentioned above.
Regarding legions that would have one, there are no legions where the use of a superheavy tank suits their combat doctrine with the exception of the iron warriors.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> well I'd like to know how there sneak a baneblade past when the commissars come a knockin
> "is that a baneblade under that loose fitting suspicious looking tarpaulin the size of a house trooper?"
> "ummm....no sir its a umm......stake of crates.....filled with umm.......cream cakes....yes cream cakes, fenrissian cream cakes...sir"
> *commissar looks suspiciously*........."ok" *walks away*


Wait what? Why would a commisar have ANY say in what a Space Marine chapter chooses to have? SM Chapters have been known to blow Inquisitors heads off if said Inquisitor looks at them funny, in fact the wolves have a history of telling the Inquisition to piss off, do you really think a Commisar is going to have any clout with them? It's more likely to go like this

"Whats that?"
"It's a Baneblade...wanna make something of it?"
"Why yes actually because according to the cod.." *THUMP* "...actually on second thought I'll just sit here and try and find my teeth if it's all the same to you."
"That's what I thought you little guard bothering snot."


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Coder59 said:


> Wait what? Why would a commisar have ANY say in what a Space Marine chapter chooses to have?


*sigh* they probably don't, but there entire job is basically to enforce Imperial laws and I would think in a supply situation that would include enforcing the codex laws, and if the codex states marines get no baneblades, they get no baneblades, it would be taken off the ship and those responsible interogated and most likely executed.

if the space wolves or any marines complain, you would simply say they are orders from higher up and to take it up with them, so when logan grimnar gets in touch with the high lords of terra complaining he got no baneblades the simple answer will be "so what?, you know your not allowed them, now shut up"

it doesn't matter how important a chapter is, or how much authority they have, if there not allowed something it does *NOT* get delivered, especially something as obvious and important as a baneblade, 1st or second generation

no matter what people may think marines are not above the laws and people who believe they are have ignore years of fluff and have marine fanboi syndrome, whether the marines follow them rules or not does not matter, someone else does who is responsible for the delivery of weapons from forge worlds


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> no matter what people may think marines are not above the laws and people who believe they are have ignore years of fluff and have marine fanboi syndrome, whether the marines follow them rules or not does not matter, someone else does who is responsible for the delivery of weapons from forge worlds


Hmm I think you're a little wrong there. THe Wolves are a none codex chapter, they obey virtually none of the tennants layed down by Guilliman. They also have a history of claiming salvage rites with various valuable pieces of kit. If you remember the Space Wolves BL series they talked about the wolves claiming an Imperial Navy Cruiser, and renaming it 'Fist of Russ' if i remember correctly after it was reclaimed from chaos. The Navy didn't like this fact and protested like mad since they wanted the ship returned to them but it ultimatly came to naught. Why did it come to naught? Because they were a first founding Space Marine Chapter. The only people who have the administrative clout to smack their hands are the Inquisition. And with the wolves not even that works, the only way to realistically punish an SM chapter never mind a first founding one is with either the Grey Knights who I doubt would give a monkeys unless the chapter had turned to chaos. Or with other SM chapters. And as we have seen most of the chapters hold the first founding chapters in very very high regard and are more likely to side with the chapter against the Adminstratum. It's happened before during the Badab war. 

Now if they were able to get away with boggarting a Navy warship of significant tonnage do you really think they would even bat an eye at reclaiming and boggarting a couple of Super Heavy battle tanks?

Codex is all well and good but not every chapter is Codex. And like it or not many SM chapters hold themselves as beyond the reach of the Administratum. I also highly doubt that any Commisar no matter how anal is going to be stupid enough to argue with a Tech Marine who claims salvage rites over something on the battle field.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Coder59 said:


> Hmm I think you're a little wrong there. THe Wolves are a none codex chapter, they obey virtually none of the tennants layed down by Guilliman.


that makes no difference when everyone else does


Coder59 said:


> If you remember the Space Wolves BL series


don't bring black library into fluff into things, GW and BL have already admitted that they are not cannon, there fictional fiction, so any mention of BL fluff or comparisons shall be ignored in this discussion.


Coder59 said:


> I also highly doubt that any Commisar no matter how anal is going to be stupid enough to argue with a Tech Marine who claims salvage rites over something on the battle field.


salvage is different, if a baneblade is knocked out in combat its remains belongs to those who lost it, not to the first people who happen to claim dibs on it, this isn't a playground.

if however the wolves find something rusting on a far battlefield thats a different matter, although I would assume there is paperwork to fill in since all baneblade ID's are kept on record, so the original owners may want it back, and space wolves being more honorable than most chapters would most likely return it with some weird ale related ceremony, there not a bunch of thieving assholes like people seem to think.


but I doubt space wolves actually have any use for a baneblade in the first place, its not very much in theme with there form of combat


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

I think what we have here is a case of. It's never been mentioned in a codex SO IT CAN'T POSSIBLY HAPPEN IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM!


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Coder59 said:


> I think what we have here is a case of. It's never been mentioned in a codex SO IT CAN'T POSSIBLY HAPPEN IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM!


but it has been mentioned, in fluff, not BL fluff, but GW fluff, different books from every edition of the game mention it somewhere, its more a case of people who haven't read much fluff thinking they have read enough but have actually missed entire chunks of it so make stuff up


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> but it has been mentioned, in fluff, not BL fluff, but GW fluff, different books from every edition of the game mention it somewhere, its more a case of people who haven't read much fluff thinking they have read enough but have actually missed entire chunks of it so make stuff up


Sorry i'm one of those people who regards BL as fitting in with the established canon. Especially the newer stuff. I'm also curious as to why you regard older sources of fluff as still being canon when we have proof that this is not the case.

I've given you a host of reasons why a Chapter might field a Super Heavy if you choose not to accept them well thats your choice. Personally i prefer to keep my options open which is why I'll be fielding a Baneblade in BLood Angels colours during my next apocalypse game, which will fit nicely in with my Guard units whom I designed to fit in with the Blood Angel colour scheme. They fit my armies fluff and i'm sure the SW Baneblades fit that players personal fluff.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Coder59 said:


> Sorry i'm one of those people who regards BL as fitting in with the established canon. Especially the newer stuff.


well thats fine, but since GW and BL have both said its not, then your wasting your time


Coder59 said:


> I'm also curious as to why you regard older sources of fluff as still being canon when we have proof that this is not the case.


because some older fluff has not been replaced, this being one of them, space marines no longer use baneblades same as guard no longer use land raiders, or are people going to argue they can just because they say so, or would most agree with that established fluff because there not SPESS MUHREENS!!!


Coder59 said:


> I've given you a host of reasons why a Chapter might field a Super Heavy if you choose not to accept them well thats your choice.


I don't accept them because they go against established fluff, and with no fluff to support marines using baneblades, and so far most peoples reasons as to why they can has been something pathetic like "because they can and I say so, nobody can argue with SPESS MUHREENS!!!"


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> well thats fine, but since GW and BL have both said its not, then your wasting your time
> 
> because some older fluff has not been replaced, this being one of them, space marines no longer use baneblades same as guard no longer use land raiders, or are people going to argue they can just because they say so, or would most agree with that established fluff because there not SPESS MUHREENS!!!
> 
> I don't accept them because they go against established fluff, and with no fluff to support marines using baneblades, and so far most peoples reasons as to why they can has been something pathetic like "because they can and I say so, nobody can argue with SPESS MUHREENS!!!"


Dude what is your problem with Space Marines? Its established in canon that nobody can really argue very much with them outside of the Inquisition. It's mentioned time and time again that you can't order them around, you have to ask nice and it's up to the senior SM commander in the specific field of operations what his troops do. It doesn't matter if the person giving the order is a gazillion star general or a sector govenor the SM are outside their remit of authority. The only people that the Marines answer too is their Chapter Master and the only one that the Chapter Masters answer to is the Big E, or possibly a Primarch if he feels like dropping by.


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## kaled (Jun 24, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> well thats fine, but since GW and BL have both said its not, then your wasting your time


Can you point me at a source where they say that? A lot of people say that they've read somewhere that BL stuff is not canon, but everything I've been able to find (including the FAQ on the BL website) says that it is canon. The only statement I've been able to find is that everything that has a 40k logo on it is official/canon, but is not necessarily 'true' and may be myth, half-lies, propaganda etc.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

kaled said:


> Can you point me at a source where they say that? A lot of people say that they've read somewhere that BL stuff is not canon, but everything I've been able to find (including the FAQ on the BL website) says that it is canon. The only statement I've been able to find is that everything that has a 40k logo on it is official/canon, but is not necessarily 'true' and may be myth, half-lies, propaganda etc.


I would be inclined to think the older BL stuff is non-canon since a lot of it was a bit half arsed. But the newer stuff (sort of post 2000) seems to be pretty much in line with the gaming materials IMO.


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## piemaster (Oct 9, 2009)

Even if they somehow got hold of a Baneblade I would imagine that its hard to get it back (I realise that I'm now referring to black library here and that is frowned upon but here goes). The Munitorum is a vast and highly bureaucratic organisation. A whole plethora of forms has to be filled in and triple stamped even before an IG regiment can be issued with ammunition. I would imagine that the same red tape would surround the requisitioning of a baneblade would involve a similar amount of work. You may then point out the value of a baneblade in comparison to las rounds but the principle is the same. Everyone knows how bureaucrats operate.

I think you both make valid points here. I like the idea of a handing over ceremony involving copious amounts of mead. I'm with shaantitus on this one - Iron Warriors would only realistically use a baneblade. Lumbering behemoths don't really work in shock assaults from orbit. Mind you, I'm not fussed really - I think its cool and would like to see it. I hope it looks as good as my imagination holds it to be.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Thanks piemaster. To be honest when the baneblade came out i desperately wanted to use one but didn't feel comfortable with it. So i built a traitor guard army so i could ally it with my CSM's. Now my guard army is bigger than my csm army and contains seven superheavies. My csm's have a brass scorpion and that is it.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

I really don't know much of the insides of a baneblade or other guards tanks but would a space marine even be able to fit in there? I mean space marines are pretty big.


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## Raptors8th (Jul 3, 2009)

Hey guys found an actual codex source of the Ultramarines using Titans on Macragge, they're not Baneblades but they're super-heavies and THEY WERE USED BY THE BIGGEST CODEX-LOVER IN THE GALAXY, Pappa Smerf himself. So anyone who wants to say that Marines can't get super-heavies just can't hold up, _they were used by the friggin Ultramarines!_

@piemaster: Yeah no one else except for maybe Iron Hands or Imperial Fists would logically use them in their strike forces, but in their PDFs a whole bunch of chapters might use them, as pointed out above the smerfs have some god-machines stashed away on Macragge somewhere for last ditch defense.

@coder59: Could you please share some of those reasons just because Stella will ignore them doesn't mean that all of us will.


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## zrolimit (Sep 23, 2008)

ok first thing is in all the Space Marine Codex books there is no Baneblade entry therefore in regular games it isnt possible to field a Baneblade at all unless you take the Apocalypse Baneblade list which is legal but not true to the background.

Space Marines are a rapid strike force/shock troops. in their operations they have no use for a large super heavy like the Baneblade, thats why they have Thunderhawk gunships which offer them more tactical flexibility.

If you look at everything that was written regarding super heavy vehicles especially early White Dwarf magazines from the 80s there is artwork and some references to Marines having super heavy tanks, though it wasnt similar to the Baneblade in design, it was however big and did pack a large main gun with additional turrets, the look was more like the original MK1 Predator from Rogue Trader era.

to be honest if someone wants to make up fluff to include one or more Baneblades in their Space Marine army then why not? its a game after all and as long as people agree and fair points are paid then carry on.

with regards to mention of BL being inline with official GW cannon, im afraid not as GW have stated numerous times anything written by BL is NOT officially authorised background and should be treated as such.

and on to the use of Titans by the Ultra Marines, any Space Marine Legion can call the assistance of the Legio Titanicus but Space Marines do NOT and never will maintain and use their own Titans. the same reason for them not using super heavies applies here, in that it is not part of their strategy or Modus Operandi as a Rapid Strike force.

my two cents


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## Raptors8th (Jul 3, 2009)

Yeah except it's in _two_ codices. In both the nids and the marines take on the sige of macragge (maybe not in the marines) titans are mentioned, and in the nid dex it's very clear that the only reinforcements were ultramarines until battle fleet tempestus joined the party.


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## kaled (Jun 24, 2008)

zrolimit said:


> with regards to mention of BL being inline with official GW cannon, im afraid not as GW have stated numerous times anything written by BL is NOT officially authorised background and should be treated as such.


Can you tell me where they've said that (specifically) - as I said, I've searched but all the statements I've found say that BL stuff is canon (including the BL FAQ). Loads of people say the same as you, but I'd like to read it for myself before I believe it over the other statements I found. So far no one has been able to point me at a single source that categorically states BL stuff is not canonical, despite loads of people telling me they're read it numerous times...


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

zrolimit said:


> to be honest if someone wants to make up fluff to include one or more Baneblades in their Space Marine army then why not? its a game after all and as long as people agree and fair points are paid then carry on.


Very true. 

To be honest I'm very suspicious of the whole BL isn't canon thing since numerous codex's have extracts from BL novels in them. Specifically the 3rd ed Space Wolves codex has a HUGE chunk from the novel Space Wolf. And the 4th Edition Space Marine codex actually begins with a fairly lengthy action sequence from the Warriors of Ultramar novel. Not only that but the same codex makes mention of Uriel's exile and mentions the previous captain who Uriel took over from, I think some mention is made of the sergant who temporarily took control of the Ultramarines 4th company while Uriel and Pasinius were bouncing around the Eye of Terror in Dead Sky Black Sun and Killing Ground as well.

I'm thinking more and more that the whole Black Library isn't canon isn't true anymore.


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## Haraldrr (Jan 29, 2008)

Im sure he could come up with a reasonable explantion fluffwise for having a baneblade.

On a side not, if BL isnt canon, then the HH main characters such as loken and garro etc arent real as they have never been mentioned outside of the HH books, therefore screwing up nearly all of 40ks fluff:so_happy:


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Brother Wulox said:


> *as they have never been mentioned outside of the HH books*, therefore screwing up nearly *all of 40ks fluff*:so_happy:


doesn't your first part contradict the second?, if they have never been mentioned except in those BL books, how does it screw up all of 40ks fluff?

GW's base 40k fluff has been around longer than the horus heresy series.




(of course this entire conversation is BoLS fault for creating that thrice cursed fellblade sheet for apocashit)


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## Haraldrr (Jan 29, 2008)

Lets go burn down bols? :biggrin:


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Well the trouble with saying Loken and Garro haven't been mentioned outside of the HH novels is that that statement is bollocks.

Garro for one was esconced quite happily in 'official' fluff well before the HH novels came out and the majority of the rest of the notable characters in the HH series so far originate from the Horus Heresy: Collected Visions.


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## Haraldrr (Jan 29, 2008)

My bad, but you get what i mean dont you?


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Brother Wulox said:


> My bad, but you get what i mean dont you?


well by the same effect BL mention what are basically zombies in Cadian blood, but you can't take them in 40k anymore without the eye of terror codex, which unfortunately people think is illegal.

or in Fifteen hours it has Orks hitting when they shoot, which does not happen in the game.

you also have space marines ripping open battlecruisers with there teeth while peeing in a heretics face and turning his skin inside out while at the same time with no arms punching chaos marines in half....with no arms, none of this again happens in game


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## Raptors8th (Jul 3, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> you also have space marines ripping open battlecruisers with there teeth while peeing in a heretics face and turning his skin inside out while at the same time with no arms punching chaos marines in half....with no arms, none of this again happens in game


Could you please elaborate on where this is?


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Raptors8th said:


> Could you please elaborate on where this is?


it is bluntly obvious sarcasm, in fact it is so blunt and obvious it just killed 6 children and a nun in central Australia, its just the kind of stupid OTT thing you can expect from BL.


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## Raptors8th (Jul 3, 2009)

Thought so. True there is some pretty f**ked up shit in some of the older books but as coder59 said the newer ones fit with everything and there is no logical reason for them to be excluded for the canon.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Stella I must protest the brutal slaying of our nuns and child...... Oh yeah, Sarcasm


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

shaantitus said:


> Stella I must protest the brutal slaying of our nuns and child...... *Oh yeah, Sarcasm*


of course, I mean come on, nuns in Australia?, obvious sarcasm :biggrin:


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

well i know that the Iron Warriors would most certainly have a baneblade or at least something like it because it goes in line with their battlefield doctrine, shit they have their own titans now for christs sake why wouldnt they have a baneblade.


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## piemaster (Oct 9, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> you also have space marines ripping open battlecruisers with there teeth while peeing in a heretics face and turning his skin inside out while at the same time with no arms punching chaos marines in half....with no arms, none of this again happens in game


Well you can't reload a manticore in-game. Does this mean when you get allocated a manticore to use as artillery you have to throw it away after 4 missiles have been fired. Think not.

Space marines can punch a man's head clean off (Inquisitor how to use SMs without screwing up a game). Just because they are armed with cc wpns in game doesn't stipulate that its a chainsword. It could be teeth/little finger/huge pulsating biceps/etc

That's a bit off the point I'm afraid. If someone has £60 to spend and has every unit from the SM codex, who's to say that (s)he can't buy some allied units and paint them which way (s)he likes?

I say go for it then tell us about it and I can take part in these lovely jollies online when I should be doing work.


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## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> maybe so, but to get a baneblade you have to ask a forgeworld which would follow the codex, no matter who you are, so when the wolves phone up a forge world and order a baneblade with extra cheese, the most likely answer would be a simple "umm.....no, your not allowed" then they would hang up


What? Why would a Forge World follow a codex laid out for the use of goverence of the Adeptus Astartes. The Munitorum would be the first approach for any forge world, following which they would answer to the current Lord Solar, and then step by step on down the ladder of office.

The only instance in which a forge world would have any dealoings what-so-ever with a Chapter of the Adeptus Astertes is if their world was under seige and in need of defense, or if they were producing one of the various machines that the Chapter already makes use of.



Coder59 said:


> Wait what? Why would a commisar have ANY say in what a Space Marine chapter chooses to have? SM Chapters have been known to blow Inquisitors heads off if said Inquisitor looks at them funny, in fact the wolves have a history of telling the Inquisition to piss off


Wow. Such ignorance. 

The Inquisition is the single most powerful and most feared body in the Imperium of Man. Ever living soul answers to the Inquisitors, and while their badge of office does not allow them to take command of a chapter, it certainly does not prevent them from making accusations of hersesy or the like. The Adeptus Astartes often calls for Inquisitorial support, sinse every time an Exterminatus is ordered by them, the Inquisition is the one who physically carries the order out, and only if they agree that it is neccessary. 

No Space Marine chapter would tell the Inquistion to piss off. Doing so would most assuredly result in being excommunicated and named heretics. And probably summarily killed.



Stella Cadente said:


> *sigh* they probably don't, but there entire job is basically to enforce Imperial laws and I would think in a supply situation that would include enforcing the codex laws, and if the codex states marines get no baneblades, they get no baneblades, it would be taken off the ship and those responsible interogated and most likely executed.
> 
> if the space wolves or any marines complain, you would simply say they are orders from higher up and to take it up with them, so when logan grimnar gets in touch with the high lords of terra complaining he got no baneblades the simple answer will be "so what?, you know your not allowed them, now shut up"
> 
> ...


My goodness. I can almost feel the teenage angst here.

Your argument boils down to "I play the IG and don't like the SM so they can't play with my best toys".

Holy Hell. Juvenille much? Fluff wise, I agree with you that BL is ot canonical, and the GW has made numerous statements to that effect, but the games is still a game, fluff asside, it _IS_ allowed in apocalypse rules. 

Should SM ever make use of Super Heavies in non-apoc games? No, it goes far too strongly against their asthetic and methodology. But the very idea of apocalypse games sets them apart from normal games becouse they are on a much grander scale and certain rules would't apply. 

I personally hate Apoc, I think the rules are absurd and completely outside the scope of the game, but that doesn't mean others can't enjoy it.



zrolimit said:


> ok first thing is in all the Space Marine Codex books there is no Baneblade entry therefore in regular games it isnt possible to field a Baneblade at all unless you take the Apocalypse Baneblade list which is legal but not true to the background.
> 
> Space Marines are a rapid strike force/shock troops. in their operations they have no use for a large super heavy like the Baneblade, thats why they have Thunderhawk gunships which offer them more tactical flexibility.
> 
> ...


+Rep for the use of common sense.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Prince Endymion said:


> No Space Marine chapter would tell the Inquistion to piss off. Doing so would most assuredly result in being excommunicated and named heretics. And probably summarily killed.


ignoring space wolves firing on =I= ships of course


Prince Endymion said:


> My goodness. I can almost feel the teenage angst here.


I'm not a teenager, if you can feel angst then your feeling it from somewhere else.


Prince Endymion said:


> Your argument boils down to "I play the IG and don't like the SM so they can't play with my best toys".


no what it boils down to is space marines do not use Imperial guard vehicles, end of, if people cannot be arsed to know this by actually picking up a proper book and reading it then tough shit to them for being ignorant


Prince Endymion said:


> Holy Hell. Juvenille much? Fluff wise, I agree with you that BL is ot canonical, and the GW has made numerous statements to that effect, but the games is still a game, *fluff asside, it IS* allowed in apocalypse rules.


please read what topic this is in, it is not in 40k rules, it is in 40k fluff, and thats been my entire F'ing point, fluffwise marines do not *EVER* use *ANY* imperial guard vehicle, this is not "juvenile" its fact which has been stamped into every book written by GW and bastardized by bloody BL and there desperate fluff bending to appeal to small minded teenagers.

in my entire 14 years of being involved in GW games not once have I ever read of marines using imperial guard vehicles as a basic part of there force (barring space wolves), they may fight alongside imperial guard vehicles, they may have there own PDF armed with imperial guard vehicles, but not imperial guard vehicles in a a single one of a space marines companies or chapters.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Prince Endymion said:


> What? Why would a Forge World follow a codex laid out for the use of goverence of the Adeptus Astartes. The Munitorum would be the first approach for any forge world, following which they would answer to the current Lord Solar, and then step by step on down the ladder of office.


Wow. Such Ignorance grin

Why would you go to the Munitorum when wishing to approach a Forge World considering the Munitorum has absolutely NO authority in regards to the running of a Forge World. The Forge Worlds are governed exclusively by the Adeptus Mechanicus, if another Imperial body, with the possible exception of the Inquisition, told a Forge World what to do then the Adeptus Mechanicus could quite easily just turn around and go 'f**k you!'.



Prince Endymion said:


> The only instance in which a forge world would have any dealoings what-so-ever with a Chapter of the Adeptus Astertes is if their world was under seige and in need of defense, or if they were producing one of the various machines that the Chapter already makes use of.


Or you know when they've got mutually beneficial pacts and oaths binding them, like a lot of Imperial organisations do with various Astartes Chapters...



Prince Endymion said:


> The Inquisition is the single most powerful and most feared body in the Imperium of Man. Ever living soul answers to the Inquisitors, and while their badge of office does not allow them to take command of a chapter, it certainly does not prevent them from making accusations of hersesy or the like. The Adeptus Astartes often calls for Inquisitorial support, sinse every time an Exterminatus is ordered by them, the Inquisition is the one who physically carries the order out, and only if they agree that it is neccessary.
> 
> No Space Marine chapter would tell the Inquistion to piss off. Doing so would most assuredly result in being excommunicated and named heretics. And probably summarily killed.


You know other than when they do tell the Inquisition to piss off. The Astartes might be more heedful of a call to arms or similar when it's voiced by the Inquisition but if they think their famed autonomy from the Imperial Hierarchy (whether that concept is misplaced or not) is under threat then they'd be more than willing to stand up for themselves against the Inquisition- and they wouldn't be alone either (see the Badab War if you want proof).


Can't believe I stuck up for Stella...I feel soiled :biggrin:


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## kaled (Jun 24, 2008)

Prince Endymion said:


> The Inquisition is the single most powerful and most feared body in the Imperium of Man. Ever living soul answers to the Inquisitors, and while their badge of office does not allow them to take command of a chapter


_Theoretically_, an Inquisitor has the authority to take command of a chapter - but as well as the practical difficulty of persuading a thousand heavily armed supermen to give up their jealously guarded independence, he'd also have to contend with his peers who would do doubt feel he was misusing his authority. Hence, in practice, the Inquisition tends to work in concert with the Astartes rather than attempting to use it's authority to force a chapter into compliance.



> The Adeptus Astartes often calls for Inquisitorial support, sinse every time an Exterminatus is ordered by them, the Inquisition is the one who physically carries the order out, and only if they agree that it is neccessary.


Actually, the Inquisition are the ones who give the exterminatus order, and it is usually the Astartes who are called in to actually carry out that order. At least, that's how it works according to the sources I've read (and is backed up by Lexicanum); but it wouldn't surprise me if there were other canonical sources that said the opposite - the 40k canon is rather inconsistent.



> Fluff wise, I agree with you that BL is ot canonical, and the GW has made numerous statements to that effect


I know I've asked this before - but could you (or anyone else) point me at one of these numerous statements?


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## Raptors8th (Jul 3, 2009)

Prince Endymion said:


> Wow. Such ignorance.
> 
> The Inquisition is the single most powerful and most feared body in the Imperium of Man. Ever living soul answers to the Inquisitors, and while their badge of office does not allow them to take command of a chapter, it certainly does not prevent them from making accusations of hersesy or the like. The Adeptus Astartes often calls for Inquisitorial support, sinse every time an Exterminatus is ordered by them, the Inquisition is the one who physically carries the order out, and only if they agree that it is neccessary.
> 
> No Space Marine chapter would tell the Inquistion to piss off. Doing so would most assuredly result in being excommunicated and named heretics. And probably summarily killed.


"Wow. Such ignorance." Wtf? have you ever _read_ the SWs codex? It specifically states that they told the Inquisition to piss off not once, but twice. Time #1 was when a great company had a battle with some GKs over whether or not to kill the unorthodox Inquisitor who'd just helped them, #2 was when the Ecclisarchy showed up with 3 SOB orders at Fenris and got there asses handed to them. And last I checked, _the SWs weren't exocommunicate traitorus._

EDIT: Oops forgot about time #3, the first Armageddon war, when Grimnar got POd at the Inquistion for killing everyone. And this was in past codices as well as fluff novels so "the codex only came out a month ago" isn't an excuse.


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## Conan2185 (Apr 22, 2008)

Raptors8th said:


> "Wow. Such ignorance." Wtf? have you ever _read_ the SWs codex?


to be fair, it only came out last month. i imagine most people haven't gotten an in depth look at it yet.


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## Llamafish (Mar 3, 2009)

Conan2185 said:


> to be fair, it only came out last month. i imagine most people haven't gotten an in depth look at it yet.


cant see that ever being a defence on this thread 

"WHAT you never read that codex, how dare you!!!!" 

hope you get my point....

Thinking BL books being labelled nonsense towards the fluff of the 40k world is a might odd thing, there novels deciated to GW 40k world but have no reflect on it? So does that mean Gaunts Ghost never existed?


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Raptors8th said:


> #2 was when the Ecclisarchy showed up with 3 SOB orders at Fenris and got there asses handed to them.


First of all that was the Ecclisarchy not the Inquisition their is a big difference between the two. Second of all, nowhere in the sw codex does it mention that the space wolves easily won. It just said after three weeks they left.


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## Raptors8th (Jul 3, 2009)

Yes but since they're religion-crazed SOBs they probably woudn't have left unless they were _really_ losing.


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

Raptors8th said:


> Yes but since they're religion-crazed SOBs they probably woudn't have left unless they were _really_ losing.


That shows how much knowledge you have of that army. There are many reasons why they could have left. Such as an Inquisitor recalled them or perhaps their was an attack in a nearby sector and they had to go help or maybe they were in stalemate.


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## Raptors8th (Jul 3, 2009)

Wow. This is an exact replay of an earlier occurrence between me and Stella in this thread. That was _sarcasm_, sorry if you thought I was serious. Just don't really have a high opinion of the Sisters fluff. :so_happy:


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

Stella Cadente said:


> of course, I mean come on, nuns in Australia?, obvious sarcasm :biggrin:


We have nuns and children here.

Someone has to protect the children from the priests and brothers.


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## kaled (Jun 24, 2008)

Regarding the Space Wolves and their relationship with the Inquisition; I think chances are that although they are happy to tell an Inquisitor to p*ss off, they're unlikely to tell the Inquisition as a whole to p*ss off.

With the former, they'd be faced with one annoyed Inquisitor who, despite his authority, would be pretty much powerless to take action against a chapter as famous as the SW. The Inquisitor wouldn't have enough personal forces to take on the SW and if he tried to requisition more for a campaign against them, chances are other Inquisitors would hear about it and put a stop to him.

With the latter, well it's hard to know how the SW even could tell the Inquisition as a whole to p*ss off - the Inquisition is not a monolithic organisation, so although they might annoy an individual Inquisitor or a Cell, Cabal, or even Conclave, that's not the same as teling the organisation to p*ss off.


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Personally, I don't see Marines use Baneblades and such on their own, simply because they're fast elite strike forces, they need speed, something that super heavies tend to lack ( and make up in firepower and staying power ).

However, the simple fact remains that sometimes marines need said firepower, for occasions like that, calling up their 'backup', aka their own PDF, serfs, or guardsmen from worlds under their protection, and to bring their baneblades along, seems totally logical.
Also note, that for every campaign, and every regiment, the colours of uniforms, vehicles etc. get redone in style of the campaign. So an IG regiment or PDF regiment that is raised, or called on to fight under the command of the SMs would have their livery denote this fact. Hence a group of IG and their baneblade fighting under the command of a SW strike force would fly SW colours.

In Non-Apocalypse, you can't field any superheavies anyway so the point is moot.
In Apocalypse, you can field Baneblades with an SM force, however the datasheet would still give them BS 3, aka there is Guardsmen sitting inside and crewing the damn thing.
Space Marines aren't trained to drive and crew such a massive device, it's not something they regularly use, and if the need arises for them to field something like this, it's much easier for them to just order one up INCLUDING crew from the regiment that it's part of, have them dress up in their colours and paint their Baneblade in their colours to signify they're working for them, than send a whole bunch of marines to some training ground where they can learn how to operate such a massive machine properly.
Having some of them permanently on call by them is simply not feasible, since their use would be sporadic at best.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Inquisitor Einar said:


> In Non-Apocalypse, you can't field any superheavies anyway so the point is moot.


yes you can, once again people these vehicles have been around much longer than apocacrap


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## ThePublic (Apr 8, 2009)

The baneblade first was intro'd in WD 110 9I think) and it was for SM.... but then again. most stuff was back then (as lots of folks played mixed IG/SM armies back then...)


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## Llamafish (Mar 3, 2009)

Has anyone else seen the pre-heresy space wolves army with Russ in at the GW WW in the gallery area!! The convertion look awesome for the most of them and the Baneblade in the army seem to suit the feel of the aggressive image.

So even if Fluff strictly nowadays dont fit it (i bet it did years ago, shame no-one quoted anything of it tho!) If you want a baneblade go with it!!


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I would just like to point out that Raptors8th's statement that the Ultramarines had Titans is bulls**t, there were Titans in the Battle of Macragge it's true but they were the Legio Praetor (as it says in the Codex), they weren't crewed or under the authority of the Ultramarines.


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