# Eldar vs Space Marines cracking armour



## hacknslashgamer (Jan 28, 2009)

OK I am playing EL and I am up against SM what is the best way to pop Land raider and Terminator armour?


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## Bloodcuddler of Khorne (Mar 22, 2010)

I'm no expert on playing Eldar, but I've read the codex and have an idea of what sounds kinda scary to my Chaos Marines.

Bright Lances are nice for taking out Land Raiders. Big tough vehicle suddenly only counts as Armor 12.

As for terminators, banshees are pretty good for that. My usual Nurgle termies aren't that scared, since they would only be wounded on 6s, but since normal SMs haven't wised up and sided with the Dark Gods, banshees can wound them on 5s. That doesn't sound terribly impressive, but bring a Farseer with them with the Doom power and the rerolls can make a pretty big difference. I don't remember which Banshee exarch weapon boosts its Str, but giving him that can help a lot too.

Meanwhile, Fire Dragons and Wraithguard are pretty good at both, as long as they can stay out of cc with the terminators. Try softening them up with Banshees, then if they win they'll hopefully have taken enough losses that Fire Dragons of Wraithguard can shoot the rest down. Wraithlords are cool too, since they can take Bright Lances and get through terminator armor in cc.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Contrary to popular belief bright lances really aren't spectacular at knocking out heavy tanks. For both Terminators and Land Raiders I'd suggest units of Fire Dragons. Terminators are easy to melt with melta weapons and Land Raiders go boom very easily as well. If possible, try to set up a one-two punch where you can knock out the Land Raider and then deal with the Terminators inside in the same turn.


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## hacknslashgamer (Jan 28, 2009)

Thanks I didn't really want to take 2 different units now I can take 2 units of Fire dragons.


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## Kontempt (Dec 1, 2009)

Remember against the LR to make use of the melta rule - At half range get an extra D6 for penetration. Also if you are going to try to hack termies to pieces with Banshees, try to soften them up with some firepower so you don't lose too many if they get to counter-attack.


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## hacknslashgamer (Jan 28, 2009)

I saw this list it sounded good

1 Farseer Psyker; Doom ; Guide ; Fleet; Ghosthelm; Rune Armour; Runes of Warding; Runes of Witnessing; Spirit Stones; Shuriken Pistol; Witchblade)

5 Fire Dragons, Fusion Gun, Melta Bombs
1 Wave Serpent, Energy Field, Shuriken Cannon, TL Scatter Lasers

5 Fire Dragons Fusion Gun, Melta Bombs
1 Wave Serpent, Energy Field, Shuriken Cannon, TL Scatter Lasers

5 Dire Avengers Avenger S-Catapult
1 Wave Serpent Energy Field, Shuriken Cannon, TL Scatter Lasers

5 Dire Avengers Avenger S-Catapult
1 Wave Serpent Energy Field, Shuriken Cannon, TL Scatter Lasers

5 Dire Avengers Avenger S-Catapult
1 Wave Serpent Energy Field, Shuriken Cannon, TL Scatter Lasers

1 Vyper Squadron 
1 Vyper Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon

1 Vyper Squadron 
1 Vyper Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon

1 Vyper Squadron 
1 Vyper Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon

1 War Walker Squadron 
1 War Walker Scatter laser

1 War Walker Squadron 
1 War Walker scatter laser

1 War Walker Squadron 
1 War Walker Scatter Laser

1500


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

i just played a battle and my team mates landraider got popped first turn by a brightlance


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

aboytervigon said:


> i just played a battle and my team mates landraider got popped first turn by a brightlance


Play 100 more games and tell me how many more times that happens.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Bright lances are not great at getting rid of land raiders. I use them against raiders but I have only got shaken results. This is good for short term because it stops it mostly firing but a more permanent is using dragons or a wraithlord to pound on its hull.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I use Bright Lances on my Fire Dragon Wave Serpents just in case. Yeah the have a 75% chance of hitting, 33% chance of a Pen and 33% chance to Wreck/Explode the Land Raider, so what 8% chance. But if it does then my Fire Dragons get to shoot up some Terminators instead. That is a game changer right there. As soon as your Fire Dragons get out of their Tank they are going to die so you might as well give them the best chance to succeed in doing something first. 

Aramoro


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## Grinnsira (Jan 5, 2010)

Ihave seen dual prisms work well at both. I knoe star cannons are pricey but I use them on my serpents to take out termies. Also Jain Zar with a squad of banshees makes quick work of them.


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## SalamanderMelt (Sep 8, 2010)

I play a lot of games versus (or sided with) an eldar player and have really felt them tare up my and my buddy's terms. So, a few words of advice for fighting terms, land raiders, and SM in general:

-Don't run Avatar. Just putting this out there. If you were thinking about it. Don't. Look at his points, consider his 6" of movement a turn, and then laugh about it.

-Fire Dragons are very good vs. vehicles, as has been said earlier. However, it should be noted that 1. you gotta be within 6" of Land raider to use melta rule effectively, and 2. they will be dropped by terms if not in cover or out of range. 

-I would suggest those sniper dudes (i think dark reapers?) with maugan ra can really pick out termies effectively. 

-For advice on the land raider: its the best armored vehicle in the SM army, so if nothing else make sure you are ready to shoot at what comes out of it (if you cant down the thing itself ). Though i think a fire prism can definitely at least immobilize it?

Edit: you can use the Farseer to buff the dark reapers to really make them shoot stuff up, what with re-rolled to-hit rolls or whatnot


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## Jack Mac (Apr 29, 2009)

SalamanderMelt said:


> I would suggest those sniper dudes (i think dark reapers?) with maugan ra can really pick out termies effectively.


You're either thinking pathfinders, in which case I at least partially agree, or Dark Reapers, in which case you're wrong (no offense intended). Reaper's weapons are AP3. I also wouldn't have picked Maugan Ra vs termies.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I always surprise people with how effective pathfinders are at popping termies. Lots of AP1's scare people.


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## Shaun (Aug 7, 2010)

Gotta agree about the dragons, my bikes popped an eldar wave serpent with a bunch of fire dragons in it the Terminators hanging around nearby never made it to cover, they never made it anywhere in fact.
The fire dragons turned them into greasespots. I still won the game but that hurt watching those dragons turn 260 pts of elite into ash. The lance rule still makes me think twice about going anywhere near one.


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## Ghost792 (Jan 6, 2010)

A Dark Reaper squad with an exarch, tempest launcher and fast shot will make short work of the power armoured marines. The exarch has BS5, the tempest launcher is a barrage weapon and fast shot will give you 3 blast templates. All you have to do is hit on the first shot and the other two should still hit marines, then you get to laugh as they die since it ignores directional cover (provided there is nothing above them of course). Of course the range isnt as good as the reaper launchers, but its still 36" and that's not something to be laughed at. Keep in mind though, that the metagame at my local is footslogging, so this works well in that case. This will run into trouble against mech if you can't destroy the transports quickly. I hope this makes sense, its been a long week.


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## viciousjokekiller (Dec 29, 2009)

For the land raider, the fire dragons are a good choice if you can get your melta guns within range. The problem is that once they kill it, they are bait for whatever comes out or whatever happens to be standing near them at the time. Also, if you put too much faith in them, what happens if the enemy takes a tank-heavy army? The fire dragons will basically get 1 turn to shine, as they are fragile. Don't ignore bright lances though. Admittedly they don't stand up to 5 melta guns, but the melta guns basically work over 1 turn. With only 4's to glance, and with a long range, bright lances can work over more than 1 turn. Even if they aren't as effective in 1 turn as fire dragons, people still fear them for a reason, and will often hide their tanks from its direct line of fire.

Against the termies, there are 3 methods.
1. AP2 weapons. The fire prism and rangers are good for this. Apart from that there's basically just the fire dragons and wraithguard, but with only a 12 inch range, they are guaranteed to be charged next turn. 
2. Piling on wounds. The 20ish shots from a dire avenger unit is guaranteed to do some damage. Also warp spiders, dark reapers or whatever tickles your fancy.
3. Power weapons. Banshees. The most potent terminator-killing weapons in the game. On the 1st turn they strike at initiative 10 and get 3 attacks each on the charge. If the unit is doomed then there is little hope of survival. If the unit has a hero or storm shields though this complicates things as the banshees can dish it out, but if some termies survives the banshees can't take a hit, so use other units to take down some of the termies before going in for the kill with the banshees.

Hope this helps:victory:


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## beast187 (Sep 6, 2009)

There are alot of Eldar players where I'm from, and by far the most effective way I've seen to wipe out heavy armour with them, is to have two 6 man units of fire dragons wait till the LR gets a little too far from the main force,to keep them from counter attacking your dragons.Drop both units of dragons, 1 within melta range for the unit that is going to take out the tank, then one unit pops the tank, and the serpents and the other dragons kill what comes out being sure to use the serpents as road blocks to protect your dragons from any stragglers. Obviously is a FS is in range doom and guide always helps.


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

Ghost792
"the tempest launcher is a barrage weapon" 

I'm afraid it's not a barrage weapon, it's Heavy 2, Blast.
Look in your Codex under Dark Reaper Exarch Wargear. If it was Barrage it would state it clearly after Blast, see rules book page 32 for an example.

To get the benefits of "No Cover Saves" you need to use the Exarch Power "Crack Shot", but this cannnot be used in the same turn that the Exarch uses "Fast Shot". Sorry.


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## Ghost792 (Jan 6, 2010)

Pssyche
Its range is written as G36", the addition of the G is an older way of denoting a barrage weapon. It states this on page 38 of the BRB in the second paragraph of the section on barrage weapons.


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

Thanks Mister! I'd completely missed that. Have some Rep for miking my Reapers even more deadly! Ha ha ha...


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Eldar have so much anti-armour, it isn't even funny. Units that totally ignore what a target's AV even is.

My Eldar army is all Wraithguard and Wraithlords with Brightlances. Land Raiders are not a problem.

Haywire grenades are also useful vs AV, as are D-Cannons. There are so many options...


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

However it practically all gets nurfed against monoliths.


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Stephen_Newman said:


> However it practically all gets nurfed against monoliths.


D-Cannons and Haywires and Wraithguard weapons still get around Monolith defences. With specific regard to the Monolith, Eldar have it better than most.


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## Flame80010 (Dec 2, 2009)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Bright lances are not great at getting rid of land raiders. I use them against raiders but I have only got shaken results. This is good for short term because it stops it mostly firing but a more permanent is using dragons or a wraithlord to pound on its hull.


arnt lances AP1?  which means that it would be a stunned result (unless you got a glancing?)


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Flame80010 said:


> arnt lances AP1?  which means that it would be a stunned result (unless you got a glancing?)


Not Eldar ones. Tyranid and Blood Angel ones are, though. ^^ Go psychic lances.


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## Lord_Anonymous (Oct 13, 2010)

Gotta agree with Katie Drake about brightlances, on paper they are good on the field though they aren't really worth the points unless they're being used as a distraction coz most other players consider lances to be threats... eejiots should be focusing on the Fire dragons as vehicle threats, there way more effective

What would you rather have, one strength 8 AP2 lance weapon with one shot, or 5 to 10 dragons with strength 8 AP1 meltas in a transport as mobile tank hunters...
the latter choice obviously


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

To make the enemy really shit himself pair up the dragons in a falcon. And then turbo-boost it towards the tank. If equipped with holo-fields it is terribly hard to destroy and presenting other threats at the same time like nearby fire prism, avatar, wraithlord and other tank hunting threats.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Things I'd avoid: Wraithlords, Wraithguard (wraithcannons are BAD at killing vehicles. Honest). Banshees. Anything that isn't mech'd up. STARCANNONS

Mech up. Run away for the entire game. Put potshots from your brightlances into high-av targets to suppress them, use your rather large pool of S6 fire to get side and rear AV shots off. Use Fire Dragons as sac melta when you absolutely have to. Run away more.

You don't need to beat termi's in cc, you can just LEAVE. s6 fire will take him down, and fire prisms can increase your kills against anything that doesn't have a thundershield.





Eldar's biggest strengths are volume of s6 fire and the ability to not be there. Play to those, don't take overly nerfed units to try to shore up their weaknesses.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

Melta requires a roll of what to pen a land raider. str 8 vs AV 14, so 7. 7 being the middle of a 2d6 roll. within 6 inches, you have about a 50% chance to pen a land raider with a single shot. For the lance, its str 8 vs AV 12, so 5 needed to pen, so you have a 1 in 3 chance to pen and 50% chance to glance, BUT the bright lance has 30 inches on the Melta.

so the question ultimately comes down to this: whats in the land raider and do you have the means to deal with it? if you can deal with the contents being in charge range of your fire dragons, by all means, they are better. if you cant, the range on Lance weaponry might come in handy. just my 2 cents.


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## Kuolema (Nov 4, 2010)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> Melta requires a roll of what to pen a land raider. str 8 vs AV 14, so 7. 7 being the middle of a 2d6 roll. within 6 inches, you have about a 50% chance to pen a land raider with a single shot. For the lance, its str 8 vs AV 12, so 5 needed to pen, so you have a 1 in 3 chance to pen and 50% chance to glance, BUT the bright lance has 30 inches on the Melta.
> 
> so the question ultimately comes down to this: whats in the land raider and do you have the means to deal with it? if you can deal with the contents being in charge range of your fire dragons, by all means, they are better. if you cant, the range on Lance weaponry might come in handy. just my 2 cents.


Melta also gets +1 on the damage chart, never forget that. 
Most of your lances will be BS3 as well, fire dragons are BS4.
Lances are expensive, fire dragons are cheap. 

You can always just block the land raider if you don't feel like dealing with it.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> Melta requires a roll of what to pen a land raider. str 8 vs AV 14, so 7. 7 being the middle of a 2d6 roll. within 6 inches, you have about a 50% chance to pen a land raider with a single shot. For the lance, its str 8 vs AV 12, so 5 needed to pen, so you have a 1 in 3 chance to pen and 50% chance to glance, BUT the bright lance has 30 inches on the Melta.
> 
> so the question ultimately comes down to this: whats in the land raider and do you have the means to deal with it? if you can deal with the contents being in charge range of your fire dragons, by all means, they are better. if you cant, the range on Lance weaponry might come in handy. just my 2 cents.


You have MORE than a 50% of penn-ing.
Remember you're looking at a curve of probabilities. 1/3 of all results you can roll will give you a 7, after all. A 2/3 chance of getting through is better than you're going to get anywhere else.

Furthermore, as Kuol pointed out, your glances actually count for something, your pens are devestating, and you can, in a pinch, block with something like a stripped down vyper.

Bright Lances are decent enough for trying to glancelock or attrition down things, but they aren't a solid kill mechanism. Give me massed s6 fire to an advantageous arc over the damn things most of the time, and the rest of the time those three elites slots that should be rocking FDs are the way to be.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Kuolema said:


> Melta also gets +1 on the damage chart, never forget that.
> Most of your lances will be BS3 as well, fire dragons are BS4.
> Lances are expensive, fire dragons are cheap.
> 
> You can always just block the land raider if you don't feel like dealing with it.


Yes, but many take lances on wave seprents, which are twin linked, so the BS argument becomes less relevant. Although Bright lances are overpriced.


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## Kuolema (Nov 4, 2010)

coke123 said:


> Yes, but many take lances on wave seprents, which are twin linked, so the BS argument becomes less relevant. Although Bright lances are overpriced.


Because wave serpents need to be more expensive than they are already  what is wrong with shuriken cannons??


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Oh, I'm not saying that bright lances are necessary, just pointing out that we do have easily available brightlances that are more accurate, thereby rendering the argument that fire dragons have superior BS moot. You'll notice that I agreed that bright lances are overpriced (and dark lances probably underpriced grrr). Nothing wrong with shuriken cannons at all, especially when you're low on points. So long as you have a plan for it, there isn't really any problem with any armament for the wave serpent (exept perhaps starcannons). You'd have to be mad to give a guardian defender squad a bright lance though.

That said, I personally take bright lances on my serpents, and don't use dragons at all. mostly because I don't like the idea of putting so much of my anti-tank into what is effectively a kamikaze squad. But each to their own.


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## Kuolema (Nov 4, 2010)

coke123 said:


> That said, I personally take bright lances on my serpents, and don't use dragons at all. mostly because I don't like the idea of putting so much of my anti-tank into what is effectively a kamikaze squad. But each to their own.


You don't use dragons at all ? Please tell me you don't care if your list isn't competitive and your only not running dragons for some fluffy reason. =/


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I prefer to use fire dragons. They are reliable, but yes they are left standing around when they have popped their target tank. However if the opposing army wishes to waste some of their shooting at a few models whilst the rest of the army is fine then more fool them.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Kuolema said:


> You don't use dragons at all ? Please tell me you don't care if your list isn't competitive and your only not running dragons for some fluffy reason. =/


Whilst I enjoy competitive play, it isn't the end of the world for me whether I win or lose. The reason I don't use dragons isn't fluff, but due to my local gaming climate- I mostly play within a small group of friends, none of which play heavy armour in great force. We have a thousand sons army of pure footslog, an IG guy who isn't particularly skillful, and my main opponent would have to be dark eldar. To that end I have a lot of strength 6 guns with a good rate of fire in order to demech those raiders, and I find suppresion fire to be sufficient against Leman Russes, until my wraithlord can get stuck in. I have played some games against the wider community with this list too, and have never really found myself wishing 'gee really coulda used those dragons'. I probably would pick up a squad, except they really need a transport, which is an even greater investment, and I am a rather poor student, who is also planning on a new grey knights force when they finally get redone, so money is tight, on top of wanting to revamp my lizardmen for 8th edition. So that's it in a nutshell.


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## Mathai (Sep 1, 2010)

My current method I use for basic anti tanking is two Wave Serpents with Bright Lances, and a 5-6 squad of Fire Dragons in a third transport. (Falcon or Wave Serpent as the mood strikes you)This is not to say thats all I use, just the bare minimum that automatically goes into my forces from the get go. Both Lances and Dragons have qualities in their tank busting. I usually keep back at first and use the superior range of lances. If they do the job, then I am good to go. But if they dont, and something big gets through, thats when my boys in red'n'orange spring forth to cut down the poor heavy transport. To rely on any one style doesnt work in my opinion, since Fire Dragons get basically one shot and Bright Lances are not always a sure bet. Its all about balance. =)

As for what is inside those big taxis, I have recently started to consider anew the benefits of D-Cannon teams. Lets face it, the Eldar only ever sit in one spot. A Home Base for capture points or heavy weapons teams like Dark Reapers tends to be the norm yes? So you know thats likely where the big stuff is coming. If it gets shot down by the Bright Lances, then whatever is inside is so far away you dont need to worry. But if it gets close enough for Fire Dragons to be needed then that means they are close enough for the D-cannon to throw some shots at to. (And if it gets by the Dragons, those cannons can possibly shoot at the taxi as well)


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## jopsrav (Jun 18, 2008)

I recently reponded to a post dealing with one of the most intense combinations of marine armour, a landraider carrying assault terminators plus hq. It seems relevent so I'll post a quote (also because it is very late now and I am tired :lazy2



jopsrav said:


> How about an over aggressive response (my favoured tactic, especially against gun line armies :biggrin. 10 foot sloggin warlocks backed up by a farseer with guide and fortune in a wave serpent. Yes you will be squaring up to them with at least an equal points commitment, but it does provide a solid one hit option. I know this does not sound very Eldar but it still sits in the basic foundation of tactics.
> 
> You have to use the basics of wave serpent placement so you can assault from inside the transport. Combinations of moving flat out and fortuning the serpent assists this, as does opting for less threaten weapons (No BL saves costs) and vectored engines stop the 4+ vehicle kill on the flat out. If the termies are deployed assault them with fortune/guided warlocks (with enchance) leaving the farseer in the serpent. Should give them over 20 saves to make before they hit back on fortuned 4++. If they are still in the landraider, assault that instead. You should then kill their mobility, and as an added bonus with a wreck result, kill all inside if you have managed to cover all the exit points with a warlock (or even trap them inside on an immobilised result).
> 
> James


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Mathai said:


> As for what is inside those big taxis, I have recently started to consider anew the benefits of D-Cannon teams.


I think you can get a prescription for that. Tell your GP and he'll write it up for ya!



Mathai said:


> Lets face it, the Eldar only ever sit in one spot. A Home Base for capture points or heavy weapons teams like Dark Reapers tends to be the norm yes?


You're doing it wrong. Sorry.

The main advantage of Eldar lists in vaguely competitive games is their bitchin' tanks and speed, and ability to use both in order to present massive firepower in the place where it's needed most. Even non-Mech lists are almost fully jetbike mounted because of this. If I don't move every unit in my turn, I am not doing it right.

Of course if you mostly play casual and don't want to win 90% or more of said casual games, then that's cool and you can ignore the above.


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