# bloodthirster power level vs a daemon primarch



## kwak76

From reading the fluff a bloodthirster power level is almost the same as that of a primarch. *Ka'Bandha* for example fought against Sanguinius and got his back broken by him. 



But I'm thinking that the really ancient bloodthirsters are much more powerful than a primarch like An'ggrath or even Skarbrand. 

So would a An'ggrath be more powerful than a daemon primarch? I would think so. But this made me think that out of all of Khorne servents Doombreed is maybe the strongest out of all of them who happens to be a daemon prince.


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## Malus Darkblade

E're ya go matey from the FAQ

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=81278


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## Angel of Blood

An'ggrath was beaten by Lorgar(pre-Istvaan), though it's debatable of course if the fight was fixed to continue his conversion. Ka'Bhanda is said in some sources to be the strongest of the Bloodthirsters, king even. It's all highly circumstantial and source depending.


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## daxxglax

I recall an excerpt from the Codex regarding Bloodthirsters: "None, save the Primarchs of old, were truly their equal in power." Obviously, it refers solely to martial might (not the beguiling and destructive powers of other Great Daemons), but the strength of all Greater Daemons is probably not equal across the board. Some are more powerful than others, even ruling over them, or curry more favor with their god, etc. Generally speaking, I'd say a Primarch and a Bloodthirster are on about equal footing. And when those Primarchs ascend to daemonhood... watch out.

I think it's safe to say that the Daemon Primarchs are among the most powerful beings in the galaxy, their power matched by very few Daemons and most likely exceeded by none. They are among the most favored of Chaos after all, and few daemons can match that. Even Doombreed, despite being countless millenia older, was still just a man when he was elevated, not a godlike posthuman.


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## avernus78

Agreed Daxxglax, Angron and Fulgrim (amoung other Primarchs that went traitor) were superior in flesh form. To imagine that they would take the form of a Daemon without subsational benefit to their powers and "immortality" would reduce their lineage in the 40k universe. Basically, in order for the Primarchs to sway their allegiance towards the will of the Chaos gods, it would require something substantial in return. Any one have thoughts on what that would be? Why give up a legion of the most powerful warriors in the universe for powers that would make them weaker in another extension.


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## Serpion5

I would like to point out that a mortal follower is never in the position to decline daemonhood. Angron`s ascension need not be by his own choice. It is not logical to assume that they would become more powerful by default. 

The current daemons codex states that few if any daemon princes can rival or eclipse the greater daemons for power. Doombreed is one such individual, but simply being a primarch is not necessarily grounds for automatic superiority. 

After all, daemonhood may grant the power of a daemon, but it also entails all of the associated weaknesses.


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## Malus Darkblade

Abbadon has supposedly declined daemonhood many times because he knows if he accepted then he wouldn't care about destroying the Imperium and the Emperor anymore.


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## Serpion5

Malus Darkblade said:


> Abbadon has supposedly declined daemonhood many times because he knows if he accepted then he wouldn't care about destroying the Imperium and the Emperor anymore.


Actually, that was an assumption by an Imperial outside observer and is never once confirmed.


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## Malus Darkblade

But more than likely. Abaddon has arguably achieved more than any traitor Primarch as his time as the despoiler.


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## khrone forever

are there any accounts of a deamon Primarch being beaten by a normal Primarch?


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## Serpion5

Malus Darkblade said:


> But more than likely. Abaddon has arguably achieved more than any traitor Primarch as his time as the despoiler.


Er, not really.  

Abaddon has accomplished more as a mortal than any daemon could. For one of the gods to raise him to daemonhood would likely result in a reduced level of favor with the others.

Also possible is that because all four gods favor Abaddon, their own machinations as much as his own will are preventing daemonhood from occurring. 

It may also have something to do with the fact that he views the gods as allies and tools, not masters. 



khrone forever said:


> are there any accounts of a deamon Primarch being beaten by a normal Primarch?


I do not believe so. Angron however has been defeated by Grey Knights and Magnus has been banished by Space Wolves.


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## Ultra111

Also I think another reason Abaddon hasn't been ascended is because he has more use to the Gods within the material world, rather than the warp. He doesn't need to be summoned, unlike a daemon, so he can wreck havoc for the gods at whim.

It wouldn't surprise me if the gods forced daemonhood on the primarchs, even if it diminished their powers, just to prove their own daemons superiority over the primarchs.


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## Angel of Blood

Not that I know of. Guilliman went up against Fulgrim and was killed, thats the only instance I can recall of a deamon-primarch fighting a 'regular' primarch.


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## Phoebus

Serpion5 said:


> The current daemons codex states that few if any daemon princes can rival or eclipse the greater daemons for power. Doombreed is one such individual, but simply being a primarch is not necessarily grounds for automatic superiority.
> 
> After all, daemonhood may grant the power of a daemon, but it also entails all of the associated weaknesses.


I would like to point out that only four Primarchs are known to have become Daemon Princes. As such, the idea of a Primarch daemon prince being more powerful than a greater daemon doesn't just _make sense;_ it still reconciles with the above quote. :wink:

Cheers,
P.


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## Chompy Bits

Four?

Magnus
Angron
Mortarion
Lorgar
Perturabo

And we have no idea what the fuck is going on with Fulgrim. So that's at least five.

On topic, the power of greater daemons vary a great deal, but the oldest and strongest of the greater daemons of the four gods would be more than a match for a daemon primarch.


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## Phoebus

Apologies for the typo--I even wrote them all out before hitting "post"! :biggrin:


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## Malus Darkblade

Peteruabo is aligned with the Soul Machine (warp-based mechanicus) or whatever it's called and not one of the four Chaos powers so is he really a DP?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> Peteruabo is aligned with the Soul Machine (warp-based mechanicus) or whatever it's called and not one of the four Chaos powers so is he really a DP?


Forge of Souls? That's not confirmed, only a theory.

In regards to the Greater Daemon against Daemon Prince debate; Greater Daemons are generally more powerful than Daemon Princes (hence the latter acting as lieutenants for the former). But there are exceptions, the Daemon Primarchs and other more powerful Daemon Princes (noting that the Daemon Primarchs are not the most powerful Daemon Princes) may exceed the power of _some_ Greater Daemons, but generally speaking the power of Greater Daemons exceeds that of Daemon Princes - with the most powerful Greater Daemons generally exceeding the power of even the most powerful Princes (Primarchs and ancient princes (à la Doombreed) included).


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## Baltar

Maybe the Greater Demons are more powerful than anything else because they are actually women and they have periods and stuff.

Wait. What? Am I in the right thread?


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## clever handle

My understanding was that the daemons, be they greator or lesser, were just facets of their god and as such had no free will. Whereas the Daemon princes / primarchs retained at least a portion of their individuality & autonomy. While this means nothing in the discussion of power in the "application of force" sense of the meaning, it does imply the daemon princes / primarchs have a greater degree of power in that they "maintain control" ...


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## DeathJester921

Serpion5 said:


> I do not believe so. Angron however has been defeated by Grey Knights and Magnus has been banished by Space Wolves.


And plus Mortarion was beaten by Draigo (apparently). Carved his name in Mortarions heart and everything.

I don't care what GW says, that is crap IMO. Even if he is a Grey Knight.


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## Serpion5

clever handle said:


> My understanding was that the daemons, be they greator or lesser, were just facets of their god and as such had no free will. Whereas the Daemon princes / primarchs retained at least a portion of their individuality & autonomy. While this means nothing in the discussion of power in the "application of force" sense of the meaning, it does imply the daemon princes / primarchs have a greater degree of power in that they "maintain control" ...


Not true. Any daemon has its own free will and ambitions to an extent. It is an inevitable result of their creation however that they will serve their god simply by acting in their own interests. 

A bloodthirster will act as he sees fit, whether it be mindless slaughter or actively seeking only the worthiest foes. Either path serves Khorne. In fact, even in exile, the bloodthirster Skarbrand serves Khorne completely. 

A daemon prince is much the same except for origins. They would not have obtained daemonhood if they were not already a valued servant. 



DeathJester921 said:


> And plus Mortarion was beaten by Draigo (apparently). Carved his name in Mortarions heart and everything.
> 
> I don't care what GW says, that is crap IMO. Even if he is a Grey Knight.


Oh yes I forgot that one. 

Deal with it.


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## Warlock in Training

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Forge of Souls? That's not confirmed, only a theory.
> 
> In regards to the Greater Daemon against Daemon Prince debate; Greater Daemons are generally more powerful than Daemon Princes (hence the latter acting as lieutenants for the former). But there are exceptions, the Daemon Primarchs and other more powerful Daemon Princes (noting that the Daemon Primarchs are not the most powerful Daemon Princes) may exceed the power of _some_ Greater Daemons, but generally speaking the power of Greater Daemons exceeds that of Daemon Princes - with the most powerful Greater Daemons generally exceeding the power of even the most powerful Princes (Primarchs and ancient princes (à la Doombreed) included).


This. A good book to read of DP vs GD is Dead Sky Black Sun. It was pretty clear in that book that a Powerful DP of Khorn was no match for a Powerful GD of Khorn. Sad really.


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## Baltar

And yet the fluff in the BA codex says that Ka-Bhandha (i.e. - the Lord of all Bloodthirsters - pretty much Khorn himself) was defeated by.....


... I hope you weren't expecting me to say... Sanguinius...


No, no... (even though he was, eventually)...

... He was actually defeated by such a lame-ass opponent as The Sanguinor...

Yep. The Sanguinor ruined Ka-Bhandhar.

GW fucks up its fluff all the time. Sanguinor beating Khorn (ok, not literally Khorn, but pretty much Khorn - it is the beast of all Bloodthirsters). Daigo beating Mortarion. Etc etc.

Why is everyone hating on the primarchs?

It goes like this, in my view:

Primarch >> Demon Prince
Primarch = Greater Demon
Greater Demon >> Demon Prince
Lesser Characters (Draigo, Sanguinor, etc) <<<<<<<<<<<<< Primarchs, Greater Demons, etc...

Nothing will change my views there, really. It all makes sense. Only recent or very silly additions to the fluff contradict it, so I just ignore those (eg., Sanguinor, Draigo, etc).


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## LukeValantine

What about the daemon lords, or the few exceptions to the proposed power scale?


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## Baltar

Well... what about them?

There are odd exceptions here and there.


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## Lord Azune

I'm just gonna throw this out here but everyone seems focused on Bloodthirsters and Khorne.... Magnus is a pimp. I daresay hes more powerful than the Fateweaver.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lord Azune said:


> I'm just gonna throw this out here but everyone seems focused on Bloodthirsters and Khorne.... Magnus is a pimp. I daresay hes more powerful than the Fateweaver.


I very much doubt it.


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## Serpion5

Lord Azune said:


> I'm just gonna throw this out here but everyone seems focused on Bloodthirsters and Khorne.... Magnus is a pimp. I daresay hes more powerful than the Fateweaver.


Magnus can snap titans with his mind. Impressive yes. 

But Kairos Fateweaver can see the future and undo the plots of his enemies well in advance. It comes back to the whole Farseer vs Librarian debate. They are completely different kinds of powerful and one does not autowin over the other by default. 

Being better in a confrontation is one thing, but being able to circumvent the confrontation completely is even better.


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## Baltar

Magnus IS a pimp. You're right, people do keep bringing up Bloodthirsters and Khorne. I guess it's because there are quite a number of instances in the fluff where we know the outcome of fights with Bloodthirsters...

I reckon Magnus would fucking rape a Bloodthirster quite easily. However, I reckon it'd be totally bland - so I don't rate it very highly. It's just not 'cool' to 'mind blast' some demon to shit. It's just not heroic, and I don't really care about it. Hence why Magnus doesn't get the respect from me that he prolly deserves. Being able to strut around and own shit with psychic powers is yawn-worthy.

It's much lower on the power scale (perhaps), but I'd much rather read about an opponent owning a Bloodthirster with a sword... It's just a billion times cooler, frankly.

But, if we are talking about powers - what about the Lord of Change? Seriously? Ok, so in pure martial prowess, some might argue that there is something lacking - but where do you actually rate the psychic abilities of the Lord of Change? Personally, I see it as the sort of demon that does give Magnus et al. a run for their money.

EDIT:

Just read the thread more closely.

I reckon it's not cut and dry between Magnus and Fateweaver. I reckon it's a close thing 

In the end, I reckon Fateweaver has the edge, if only due to being a demon. Banish it, and it comes back anyway...


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## Malus Darkblade

Exactly why I dislike the 1k Sons. You are either a psyker or a sword-wielding killing machine. 

The Grey Knights are exceptions and excel at both while the 1k Sons have never struck me as being good at fighting hence why post-Heresy they use slaves to do the fighting for them and pre-Heresy used the warp to guide their bullets.


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## MontytheMighty

Baltar said:


> I reckon Magnus would fucking rape a Bloodthirster quite easily.


Why? Magnus couldn't even rape Leman Russ, and a powerful Bloodthirster arguably has greater psychic resistance than Russ...


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## Baltar

I was under the impression that Leman Russ was one of the most psyker-resistant entities there is...


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## MontytheMighty

Baltar said:


> I was under the impression that Leman Russ was one of the most psyker-resistant entities there is...


pretty sure Bloodthirsters, favoured champions of Khorne (who hates all forms of psychic witchery) would be up there too...


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## Baltar

Well, I'd put my money on Magnus dick-smashing a regular Bloodthirster any day of the week. A Bloodthirster on its own isn't in the same league of badassery as Leman Russ. I can take a Bloodthirster in a demon army for a fair few points. If I was going to take Leman Russ in a SW army, I'd hope it would cost me at least a couple of thousand just for him alone (not that any of that is relevant). However, just because Magnus couldn't rape Leman Russ in an instant doesn't mean that he isn't going to put a Bloodthirster's head up its own arse. The two situations don't really relate...


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## MontytheMighty

Baltar said:


> Well, I'd put my money on Magnus dick-smashing a regular Bloodthirster any day of the week.


dunno about that...seems like pure speculation on your part 

Bloodthirsters are strong against psykers, not weak against psykers
Khorne blesses them with practical immunity against psykery



> However, just because Magnus couldn't rape Leman Russ in an instant doesn't mean that he isn't going to put a Bloodthirster's head up its own arse.


not only did he "fail to rape Leman Russ in an instant", Magnus outright lost to Russ, and I am by no means a SW fan 



> The two situations don't really relate...


uh...yeah they do
A bloodthirster and Russ both have strong psychic resistance and are both excellent melee fighters


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## Baltar

Magnus and Russ didn't actually fight, btw....

The only descriptions we have are details of Russ being an extremely potent psyker himself (or at least having an immense psykic presence), and that this was enormously painful for Magnus. Russ's psykic scream is mentioned, as I recall. I don't think this, at all, means that Russ 'beat' Magnus in any way: They've never had a full on one-on-one showdown. If they did, I'm sure it wouldn't be as close cut as some people like to think. Primarch vs Primarch is as controversial as Custodian vs Space Marine in my opinion. There's no clear winner in any event.

As for Bloodthirster vs Magnus: I see a standard Bloodthirster as being a challenge for a primarch, but I ultimately always see a primarch (any primarch) as being a match for them. Russ is a much more challenging opponent for Magnus IMO, and a Bloodthirster is a lesser being than any primarch. I reckon Magnus would present himself pretty well.


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## Angel of Blood

Huh? Didn't you read the closing chapters of ATH?? They definetly go full on melee with each other, Russ takes Magnus eye and breaks his back over his knee, goes to deliver death blow but Magnus(with the aid of Tzeentch) whisks himself and the remains of his legion away. Ring any bells?


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## Baltar

Why the fook do I not remember this...


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## Baron Spikey

Also Primarch vs. Primarch fights being like Custodian vs. Astartes fights?

Corax hands Lorgar his arse on a silver platter, and in Deliverance Lost (and I imagine Raven's Flight) says that he believes himself one of the best Primarchs in hand to hand combat but he'd likely be annihilated by Angron.


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## Baltar

That's drifting as far into speculation as I have, and you know it 

Best CC primarch is an old debate, and we all know the ringleaders. Angron/Russ/Sanguinius - all right up there. I like that Corax is considered in there too, but against any of those three, I'm calling bs on Corax's boast.

Primarchs are like Hattori Hanzo swords (not that I know anything about that). Compare them to everything else they kill. Comparing them to other primarchs just seems crude


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## Baron Spikey

Baltar said:


> That's drifting as far into speculation as I have, and you know it
> 
> Best CC primarch is an old debate, and we all know the ringleaders. Angron/Russ/Sanguinius - all right up there. I like that Corax is considered in there too, but against any of those three, I'm calling bs on Corax's boast.
> 
> Primarchs are like Hattori Hanzo swords (not that I know anything about that). Compare them to everything else they kill. Comparing them to other primarchs just seems crude


actually a Raven Guard commander and Imperial Fist captain have a standing bet that it'll be Sanguinius or Russ (respectively) who kills Horus in hand to hand combat so your Top 3 is kinda supported


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## Warlock in Training

Baron Spikey said:


> Also Primarch vs. Primarch fights being like Custodian vs. Astartes fights?
> 
> Corax hands Lorgar his arse on a silver platter, and in Deliverance Lost (and I imagine Raven's Flight) says that he believes himself one of the best Primarchs in hand to hand combat but he'd likely be annihilated by Angron.


Yet Corax fought a already confine to die Lorgar and then ran when Cruze made his move (a move that was half paying attention to Corax) and Corax ran away. Now in new books Logar beats Daemon Fulgrim down and shows to have a Powerful Psy Presence on par of Magnus. I highly doubt Corax would hand Lorgar his arse on a silver platter now.

I think normal Primarchs are good enough to beat GDs. Then the only DP Primarch vs Primarch we have is Papa Smurf vs Fulgrim and we all know what happen to Guilly in that match up. So I rate DP Primarchs a equal to any top notch GD. Hell Angron rolls with 20 BTs as mere bodyguards. Whos top dog there?

The only person that (this is dabatable) to beat a DP Primarch is Draigo. He carved into Mortarions heart. Never does it say he banishes the Primarch or even beat him down, but manage that feat. Since hes blatantly Matt Wards Chuck Norris of 40k I can accept this.


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## Baltar

Yeah... But... Guilliman is the only Primarch I'm willing to say is literally pathetic in all respects. It surprises me not at all that some perfume wearing snake with four arms gave him a little scratch and he died on his arse.


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## Baron Spikey

Warlock in Training said:


> Yet Corax fought a already confine to die Lorgar and then ran when Cruze made his move (a move that was half paying attention to Corax) and Corax ran away. Now in new books Logar beats Daemon Fulgrim down and shows to have a Powerful Psy Presence on par of Magnus. I highly doubt Corax would hand Lorgar his arse on a silver platter now.


 Lorgar beats Fulgrim a very short time after being beaten by Corax, and even then it's not a fight- Fulgrim didn't expect to be attacked, whereas Lorgar charged the Lord of Ravens and still got his arse handed to him. And Corax left because he would have been facing 2 Primarchs rather than 1, no Primarch could have been sure of the result with that match up.
Though Corax himself says he wished he'd stayed to kill Curze (something he holds no doubt he could have done quickly) and then finished off Lorgar, but he sacrificed his personal vengenace for the sake of his Legion.



Warlock in Training said:


> I think normal Primarchs are good enough to beat GDs. Then the only DP Primarch vs Primarch we have is Papa Smurf vs Fulgrim and we all know what happen to Guilly in that match up. So I rate DP Primarchs a equal to any top notch GD. Hell Angron rolls with 20 BTs as mere bodyguards. Whos top dog there?
> 
> The only person that (this is dabatable) to beat a DP Primarch is Draigo. He carved into Mortarions heart. Never does it say he banishes the Primarch or even beat him down, but manage that feat. Since hes blatantly Matt Wards Chuck Norris of 40k I can accept this.


Again it depends on the GD (plus it was 12 BT not 20 )



Baltar said:


> Yeah... But... Guilliman is the only Primarch I'm willing to say is literally pathetic in all respects. It surprises me not at all that some perfume wearing snake with four arms gave him a little scratch and he died on his arse.


All we know is that a musk-fog billowed around both Primarchs and when it disipated Guilliman was dead- we don't know what happened within that mist.


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## Baltar

Well, we do... We know that Fulgrim was alive and Guilliman wasn't...


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## Baltar

IMO the Draigo stuff is bs. It's on par with the injection of fluff regarding the Sanguinor. It's just a fluff injection to hype them up - squirted into the codices so people will think they are cool units and buy the models. The fluff behind both characters is laughable at best (particularly the Sanguinor). It's half-hashed, and just raises a load of questions. Always bound to happen when an uber powerful character that nobody has ever heard of is simply introduced into the timeline as though they'd always been there. Especially when they go around raping Kha'bandha willy nilly...

It's just... shit... and is best ignored 

At least most of the primarchs have reasonably historic backgrounds, and even if their detail was never fluffed out much, there was always a general gist behind each one that hinted towards their abilities. Everyone knew who the CC monsters were, and who were the ones with 'other' abilities. Draigo and the Sanguinor are just "GW wants a monster 275pt character for this codex - ten minutes later they'd conjured them up". Fluff wise, it's just a load of crapola...


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## Baron Spikey

Baltar said:


> At least most of the primarchs have reasonably historic backgrounds, and even if their detail was never fluffed out much, there was always a general gist behind each one that hinted towards their abilities. Everyone knew who the CC monsters were, and who were the ones with 'other' abilities. Draigo and the Sanguinor are just "GW wants a monster 275pt character for this codex - ten minutes later they'd conjured them up". Fluff wise, it's just a load of crapola...


Completely agree.

We already knew the Blood Angels and Grey Knights were hardcore- they were the most psychotic and dedicated of Imperial troops, respectively, they certainly didn't need some mythical hero to make them better.


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## Baltar

I have less of a problem with Draigo than I do with the Sanguinor, mainly due to the image. For example, Draigo is quite inoffensive as a character - it's just that he's clearly some beast CC'er that they shunted into the 'dex to give players the choice of such a unit.

However, the Sanguinor is... like... wtf... Some glittery golden angel who, speculatively, isn't even a marine.. possibly not human... sort of saviour/apparition that just turns up and wins the day... The whole image/story is beyond cheese. If such a character had been present for the BA, why would the inquisition not be knocking on the door with things like "Who the hell is this random demon who shows up to smash everything?".

According to Swallow, the last time someone else showed up in shiny golden armour, with Sanguinius-like features, shit got messy. Why is this random phantom tolerated, exactly? I just don't get the whole idea at all. It's fluff that's been pieced together in a seemingly hurried and hodge-podge fashion.

I would say the same applies to the senior chaplain character, but at least he's more understandable. His offense is simply being way too stereotipically grimdark in a BA sort of way. My thoughts towards him are that he's completely unnecessary: Mephiston was ticking all of those boxes years ago... And as far as random heros in shiny golden armour go, what was so wrong with Tycho?

Too many questions. Much too weak fluff.

Fortunately, the primarchs don't suffer from that too much. There are loads of questions about their relative powers, but I think that if they were all answered then things wouldn't be as interesting.

Personally, I feel that primarchs with psyker powers (as their primary ability) are the most difficult to guage. We have sisters of silence chopping up demons left right and centre, but we have super-dooper primarchs having difficulties with such brutes. Yet I imagine those same primarchs would completely ruin any sister of silence (as an example). The power scales clearly overlap according to all sorts of eventualities...


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## MontytheMighty

Baron Spikey said:


> actually a Raven Guard commander and Imperial Fist captain have a standing bet that it'll be Sanguinius or Russ (respectively) who kills Horus in hand to hand combat so your Top 3 is kinda supported


is this from Deliverance Lost?



Baron Spikey said:


> And Corax left because he would have been facing 2 Primarchs rather than 1, no Primarch could have been sure of the result with that match up.
> Though Corax himself says he wished he'd stayed to kill Curze (something he holds no doubt he could have done quickly) and then finished off Lorgar, but he sacrificed his personal vengenace for the sake of his Legion.


and he had just lost one of his lightning claws
I'm sure Corax had no doubt he could take Curze in a 1v1 "even" fight (and vice versa) 
they both strike me as very confident in their own skill



Baltar said:


> Best CC primarch is an old debate, and we all know the ringleaders. Angron/Russ/Sanguinius


In Raven's Flight, I believe Corax ranks Horus, Sanguinius, and Angron as the best CC fighters 
also, Lorgar thinks Fulgrim and Khan are the best "swordsmen" I believe, the Lion is also very good

anyway, I reckon the primarchs are all a bit full of themselves
everyone seems to think he's just below Angron/Sanguinius/Horus
...and honestly I never thought of Horus as a great fighter, more of a great politician/diplomat/commander


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## Baltar

Shit. Got. Messy.


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## Baron Spikey

MontytheMighty said:


> is this from Deliverance Lost?


Yeah.



MontytheMighty said:


> In Raven's Flight, I believe Corax ranks Horus, Sanguinius, and Angron as the best CC fighters
> also, Lorgar thinks Fulgrim and Khan are the best "swordsmen" I believe, the Lion is also very good


 In Deliverance Lost Corax ranks the Lion as the best duelist and the Khan as a better warrior, whilst Sanguinius and Russ are considered by the RG and IF as absolute monsters when it comes to hand to hand combat (at least amongst the remaining loyalists).


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## Warlock in Training

I think CotE put it best really. No Primarch is superior to the rest. All that can be proven is which Primarchs have bested or tied with the others.

Fulgrim was better than Manus and DP Fulgrim better than Guilliman.
Guilliman better than Alpharius... or was he?
Russ bested Magnus.
Chaos Horus bested Sangy.
Night terror Cruze beat Dorn.
Lion and Cruze tied.
Corax beat Logar.

Ect, ect, other than the few matchups its hard to say Corax is better than say Cruze cause of the onesided mismatch against a self defeated Logar. Its really hard to take as fact what a Primarch thinks as himself and where his brothers rate at.


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## MontytheMighty

Warlock in Training said:


> Night terror Cruze beat Dorn.


You love harping on about that...but we simply don't know _any_ details about that incident other than 
1) Curze snapped during a verbal confrontation and 
2) Dorn ended up on the ground 

_maybe_ Curze sucker-punched Dorn in a similar manner to how the Lion knocked out Russ

_maybe_ Curze bested Dorn in a contest of prowess 

sadly, we do not know enough about that encounter to conclude "yeah, Curze totally outclassed Dorn...what a super badass!!!"
without further clarification, we can only speculate as to how that encounter played out


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## Baltar

Dorn is rubbish, so nobody cares anyway. What a mega asshole.


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## MontytheMighty

Baron Spikey said:


> In Deliverance Lost Corax ranks the Lion as the best duelist and the Khan as a better warrior, whilst Sanguinius and Russ are considered by the RG and IF as absolute monsters when it comes to hand to hand combat (at least amongst the remaining loyalists).


did he mention Angron in relation to Sanguinius and Russ? 
anyway, I believe the matter is further complicated by statements as "best duelist", "best swordsman", "better warrior"
apparently the Lion is a better duelist but Sanguinius is better at close combat...there's a lot of nuance to keep it rather ambiguous


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## Baltar

Well, by that I assume that 'Duellist' means 'one-on-one', and generally involves some sort of ordered match.

Whereas 'Close combat' means "getting stuck in with absolutely no rules'.

Basically, the long haired ponce that the Lion generally is likes to fiddle and prance about with swords, whereas Angron, Sanguinius, and Russ all like to tear everyones' balls off, bite off their noses, headbutt them in the face, and then snap them like a twig.


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## MontytheMighty

Baltar said:


> Well, by that I assume that 'Duellist' means 'one-on-one', and generally involves some sort of ordered match.
> 
> Whereas 'Close combat' means "getting stuck in with absolutely no rules'.
> 
> Basically, the long haired ponce that the Lion generally is likes to fiddle and prance about with swords, whereas Angron, Sanguinius, and Russ all like to tear everyones' balls off, bite off their noses, headbutt them in the face, and then snap them like a twig.


Well, best at CC could mean best at CC in battle (with a lot of combatants) 
"Duelist" could simply refer to 1 on 1 duels (regardless of whether there are rules of chivalry)

When the Lion fought Curze, he didn't appear to be following any rules, I mean his first move was to sucker-stab Curze in the stomach. The Lion appeared to be very arrogant throughout the fight, talking smack and almost toying with the less technically skilled Curze. I was under the impression that if the Lion had wanted to kill Curze quickly, he could have done so easily.


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## Baltar

I don't have a problem with the Lion being able to easily beat Alan Rickman - I mean Curze - in a flat out fight. Curze is on some assassin type trip, and Lion is essentially a stereotypical knight/tank type of guy. A big, poncy, green tank guy. With a poncy name, too.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Warlock in Training said:


> I think CotE put it best really. No Primarch is superior to the rest.


I think I put it best as well. :so_happy:

*Any* Primarch could beat *any* other Primarch given the right circumstances.


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## Angel of Blood

MontytheMighty said:


> did he mention Angron in relation to Sanguinius and Russ?


No as they are debating(betting more accurately) on which of the loyalist primarchs will be the one to kill Horus when they find out about his treachery, Angron is obviously a known traitor by this point so wouldn't be mentioned. Either way both sides seem to believe that the Blood Angels or Space Wolves(and I imagine they presume at full strength, not knowing about the losses on Signus or how many casualties the Wolves took on Prospero) with their respective Primarchs will dramatically change the balance of the war and will go straight for Horus and kill him.


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