# Any ideas for a good unit? post here to try them out



## immense010 (Feb 3, 2009)

Ever thought of a certain unit that might be absolutely brilliant, but never really had the time to try it out, or dont have the models? (Or any other reason just as feasible)

Well heres the post to post it in, so to speak......

Just write down the unit, and tell me what you want it to do.

Or, same applies, if you want to compare units to see which is better, then just post both units to see which is better.


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## Gold170492 (Feb 12, 2008)

What would be better

Full unit of Pariah with a Load with VoD

Full unit of Immortals with a Lord with a VoD

I think the Immortals would be best


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## Trandoshanjake (Jul 22, 2008)

275pts of GKs or ~275 of zerkers?

My money is on the GKs if they get the charge, denying the zerkers their Furious Charge and +1 attack.


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## Wounded (Jan 24, 2009)

Gold170492 said:


> What would be better
> 
> Full unit of Pariah with a Load with VoD
> 
> ...


Pariahs arent necron so i dont think they can use Veil of Darkness...


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## immense010 (Feb 3, 2009)

Gold170492 said:


> What would be better
> 
> Full unit of Pariah with a Load with VoD
> 
> ...


well firstly lets consider the phase out count....we'll have to take that into account as pariahs dont count as necrons...

generally speaking, 25% is phase out so a full unit of pariahs would be 80 pts more than a unit of immortals...i.e. 60pts worth of anti phase-out...
thus they should make up an additional 60pts on top of them....
well, theyre obviously equal in shooting as the have the same weapons. so no point working anything out there.
In combat, they're superior, however how much more superior?

Lets put it to the test against a unit of 20 orks with a nob with PK.

consider the Immortals 1st.
All strike simultaneously.
immortals get:
30 attacks=15 hits=15/2 wounds=25/2 dead
orks get:
40 attacks=20 hits=10/3 wounds= 10/9 dead
then goes the nob:
3 attacks=3/2 hits=5/4 dead

so altogether 10/3 WBB comes to 10/9 +5/4 =85/36 dead immortals, 595/9pts worth, -25/2 dead orks, 75pts, total loss of 80/9 pts gain.

consider the parihas:
parihas strike 1st:
40 attacks= 20 hits= 40/3 dead orks.
orks after = 34/3 attacks = 17/3 hits=17/18wounds=17/54 dead
Nob gets 3 attacks=3/2 hits = 5/4 dead

so altogether parihas get 80pts of dead orks, orks get 15/54 + 5/4 dead parihas = 55 pts of dead parihas, total of 25 pts gain in pariha's favour....

in conclusion its 80/9 - 25 = 145/9 pts gain for parihas. so the parihas compensate for about 16 pts worth of additional expensiveness.... so its a matter of opinion wether the pariah special rules are worth 124 pts.....my personal opinion? No. even against tougher armies i doubt it because they could take advantage of your lower phase out count.

as for your point, Wounded, no. pariahs can't use VOD.:nono:


Overall conclusion, Immortals are better.


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## Wounded (Jan 24, 2009)

> as for your point, Wounded, no. pariahs can't use VOD.


Thats what i said! don't scold me.

and whats with all of these / in the numbers here? i can not figure it out at all. But anyways, can i ask why you'd choose to use 20 Orks as a target? It seems just a touch unrealistic that you'd want to throw either unit into orks 20 strong with necrons ever. at best i'd use necron melee just to clean up a squad after shooting it so much that it wouldnt be hitting back.


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## immense010 (Feb 3, 2009)

Trandoshanjake said:


> 275pts of GKs or ~275 of zerkers?
> 
> My money is on the GKs if they get the charge, denying the zerkers their Furious Charge and +1 attack.


Ill assume you mean in combat then....
well 275 pts of GK is just a plain unit of 10 of them.
Closest i can get to 275 pts of berzerkers is a unit of 11 lead by a skull champion with a power fist, comes to 271pts so the zerkers have a 4 pt advantage.
1st lets consider if the GK charge.
All strike simultaneously, so
Justicar gets 4 attacks = 8/3 hits = 20/9 dead.
9 GK get 27 attacks = 18 hits = 15 wounds = 5 dead
the berzerkers get 30 attacks = 15 hits = 15/2 wounds = 5/2 dead
skull champ gets 2 attacks = 1 hit = 5/6 dead.
totals up to 65/9 dead zerkers vs 10/3 dead GKs. GKs win by 35/9, so another 35/18 dead zerkers.
totalling 10/3 (250/3 pts) dead GKs vs 55/6 (385/2 pts) of dead zerkers.
GKs win by 655/6(bout 109) pts.

now lets consider if berzerkers charge.
Berzerkers go 1st.
10 berzerkers get 40 attack=20 hits = 40/3 wounds = 40/9 dead
then go GK:
Justicar gets 3 attacks = 2 hits = 5/3 dead zerkers
41/9 GKs get 82/9 attacks = 164/27 hits = 410/81 wounds = 410/243 dead
Skull champ gets 3 attack= 3/2 hits=5/4 dead.
total of 815/243 dead zerkers vs 205/36 dead GK. GK take an extra 2275/972 wounds so an extra 2275/2916 dead. total of 4720/729(about 162 pts)of dead GK vs 815/243 (5705/108...about 23 points) of dead berzerkers. so berzerkers win by about 109 pts

so considering both sides, berzerkers are ....so in combat, the GK are better by about .1 points....no diference really....so altogether the GK are loads better, when you thrown in all the other special rules they have...

hope that helped, and sorry bout the big numbers, even ,y calculator couldnt cope after a bit...


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## immense010 (Feb 3, 2009)

Wounded said:


> Thats what i said! don't scold me.
> 
> and whats with all of these / in the numbers here? i can not figure it out at all. But anyways, can i ask why you'd choose to use 20 Orks as a target? It seems just a touch unrealistic that you'd want to throw either unit into orks 20 strong with necrons ever. at best i'd use necron melee just to clean up a squad after shooting it so much that it wouldnt be hitting back.


firstly i wasnt scolding you, i was just confirming what you said. im really sorry if it offended you in any way. wasnt intending to.
the / represents "divided by". meant to be a fraction, just cant figure out how to write them up like that.
and i thought id use orks as they have loads of attacks so gives a better estimation of the effect of saves and WBB. On top of that its an army im familiar with and it just made the numbers easier.


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## Gold170492 (Feb 12, 2008)

I thought you could shoot it the turn DS


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## HydraReaper (Feb 16, 2009)

Which would be better?

10 Hormagaunts with Extended carapace and toxin sacs
Or
10 Gaunts With Extended carapace, Toxin sacs and Spine fist

My opinion is the Hormagaunts but i dont really know.


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## immense010 (Feb 3, 2009)

HydraReaper said:


> Which would be better?
> 
> 10 Hormagaunts with Extended carapace and toxin sacs
> Or
> ...




Well lets compare the 2:

Gaunts Hormagaunts
Points 90 130
Can Shoot? Yes No
Can assault? obviously obviously(12" apart)


Lets consider a unit of 10 marines with a PW sergeant:
Gaunts shooting:
10 shots = 15/2 hits = 15/4 wounds = 5/4 dead.
total of 20 pts of dead marine

Gaunts combat:
all simultaneous, so lets see the marines
Sergeant gets 3 attacks = 2 hits = 4/3 dead gaunts
other marines get 9 attacks = 6 hits = 4 wounds = 8/3 dead gaunts
gaunts get 20 attacks = 10 hits = 5 wounds = 5/3 dead.
total of 4 (36 pts) of dead gaunt vs 5/3 (80/3 points) of dead marines.
nids lose by 28/3 pts.....add on the shooting and you get 32/3 pts total.....16/135 pts effectiveness.

now the hormagaunts.
well they get a 12" assault, so technically they'd be 2ce as likely to assault.....although thats a lot of maths, and frankly it wouldn't make a lot of difference, about 10 pts worth.if i got time later on i'll add that in. for now ill just take it at 10pts. hormagauts dont get any shooting so ill go straight to combat:

same as before, all go simultaneous,
sergeant gets 3 attacks = 3/2 hits = 1 dead
other marines get 9 attacks = 9/2 hits = 3 wounds = 2 dead
hormagaunts get 30 attacks = 15 hits = 15/2 wounds = 5/2 dead
overall 3 (39 pts) dead nids vs 5/2 (40 pts) of dead marines. thus marines win by 1 point. if you include the 10 pts difference thats 11 pts total, so 11/130 pts effectiveness.
totalling shows that normal gaunts are about 1.5 times better for their money.


conclusion: normal gaunt unit is better than hormagaunt unit.


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## Wounded (Jan 24, 2009)

HydraReaper said:


> Which would be better?
> 
> 10 Hormagaunts with Extended carapace and toxin sacs
> Or
> ...


Toxin sacs and extended carapace kind of make a gaunt expensive which isnt good for a unit who's only purpose any more is to get shot at and die. Immense already ran all the numbers for you but I'd like to add that neither of these units are ideal. Gaunts should have only a flesh borer or spine fists (possibly WoN on the fisters). Hormagaunts should be left on the shelf in 5th.


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## immense010 (Feb 3, 2009)

Wounded said:


> Gaunts should have only a flesh borer or spine fists (possibly WoN on the fisters).


Although i'm not an actual nids player, i agree. although between the 2 id go for a fleshboarer


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## Wounded (Jan 24, 2009)

immense010 said:


> Although i'm not an actual nids player, i agree. although between the 2 id go for a fleshboarer


I usually run 1 min brood of 8 spines with WoN but the rest are always with fleshborers. no use wasting those 8 points to give a brood built to die a shiny gun. XD


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Ironclad Dreadnought, Seismic Hammer, DCCW, Melta Gun, Heavy Flamer, against Defiler, 4x DCCW.


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## immense010 (Feb 3, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Ironclad Dreadnought, Seismic Hammer, DCCW, Melta Gun, Heavy Flamer, against Defiler, 4x DCCW.


To be honest, this is probably one of the hardest examples going. Mainly because of the way vehicles get damaged. Although i'll have a crack at it anyway.:good:

Let's look at shooting.
The only thing the Ironclad really has is its meltagun. Lets assume that it's within the 6", mainly because both these monsters (literally speaking in both cases, the ironclad is basically just Chuck Norris' funnybone in a 100 tonne suit of armour so it doesn't even need the hammer, the defiler'r run by a portal to another dimension in the engine:wink are both built for CC, so the'll be running towards each other whenever possible. Anyway, that's 
1 shot= 1/2 hit = 11/24 success (1/24 glancing & 5/12 penetrating)

Glancing Penetrating
1 No damage No Damage
2 No damage Weapon Destroyed
3 No damage Immobilised
4 Weapon Destroyed Wrecked
5 Immobilised Explodes
6 Wrecked Explodes

so the amout of each it has on average are:

Weapon Destroyed = 11/144
Immobilised = 11/144
Wrecked/Explodes (they're both essentialy the same) = 31/144

As for the Defiler, it still has a battle cannon. It'll hit dead-on 1/3 of the time. Scattering's a bit more awkward, and comes in 3 outcomes, still hits dead-on, half strength on rear arc, or other. dead-on scatter would be 1/6 chance, semi-scatter in the rear would be 5/48.
then, it gets 41/288 glancing
and it gets 11/72 penetratings.

Glacing Penetrating
1 Shaken Shaken
2 Shaken Shaken
3 Shaken Weapon Destroyed
4 Shaken Immobilised
5 Weapon Destroyed Destroyed
6 Immobilised Explodes

So chances are:
Shaken = 7/48
Weapon Destroyed = 85/1728
Immobilised = 85/1728
Destroyed/Explodes = 11/216

If the dreadnought charges, it gets 4 attacks= 8/3 hits = 2/27 G & 16/9 P
Glancing Penning
1 nothing nothing 
2 nothing weapon destroyed
3 nothing immobilised 
4 weapon destroyed wrecked
5 immobilised explodes
6 wrecked explodes

so it's 25/81 for weapon destroyed,
25/81 for immobilised
73/81 for destroyed.


I think it's enough up to here to say that the Ironclad is better. Basically i'm cutting it short here 1stly because this post is getting long, and i dont want to put people off the scrolling, so ill just end in pointing out that theres only about 10% chance that the defiler even has a chance to attack after this....and if it does, half the time it'll be at -1 attack.


Conclusion: Chuck norris beat the hole to another dimension. (are we honestly surprised? i think not)


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## Bayonet (Aug 13, 2010)

Awesome thread!!

Right, effectiveness in shooting for the following Imperial Guard units:

1 x Veteran Squad, 3 Grenade Launchers

vs

2 x Normal Squads, 2 Grenade Launchers between them (roughly the points equivelent of the Vet squad with a doctrine and the weapons)

Taking into consideration your normal Infantry squads are most likely to be near an Orders issuing Officer than the Vets are (so First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire is more likely to be issued to the Infantry Squads).

Cheers!

Bayonet


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Ketchup, Mayonaise or Mustard? Discuss.


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## immense010 (Feb 3, 2009)

Bayonet said:


> Awesome thread!!
> 
> Right, effectiveness in shooting for the following Imperial Guard units:
> 
> ...


Well let's consider how much damage each would do to MEQ. (without the first rank fire, second rank fire..I'll deal with that seperately at the end) Also gave the sergent a plasma pistol to even the points out (for sake of bigger numbers and better average, I'll assume both do be within rapid fire range)

Veterans:
Grenade launcher, krak=3 shots*2/3=2 hits*5/6=5/3 wounds*1/3=5/9 dead marines.
Plasma pistol=1 shot(assuming they moved)*2/3=2/3 hits*5/6=10/18 dead.
Lasguns=12 shots*2/3=8 hits*1/3=8/3 wounds*1/3=8/9 dead.

So in total we have on average exactly 2 dead marines.

Guardsman squads:

2 grenade launchers, krak=2 shots*1/2=1 hit*5/6=5/6 wounds*1/3=5/18 dead marines.
laspistols=34 shots*1/2=17 hits*1/3=17/3 wounds*1/3=17/9 dead.

This totals to an average of 39/18 (or 2.1667) dead marines, 1/6 more tham the veterans, i.e. 1 per match.

Now from her it's obvious that I don't even need to factor in the first rank fire second rank fire, since even without it the generic guard are better, meaning that with it the generic guard increase their "victory margin". I also worked the points out, and the difference comes out to just 5pts. Hope that answers your question, haven't done this in ages so my methodology might have weakened a bit. Either way this should be right....and consider this a possible warmup for future posts.



OddJob said:


> Ketchup, Mayonaise or Mustard? Discuss.


Aah...the question of the ages. Ketchup has a widespreadedness save of 2+, making it the most widespread sause in the world, however mayonaise slightly tops it in terms of deliciousness save(3+)with re-roll, but mustard deals double damage to any sort of food, mainly hot-dogs.


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## OrdoMalleus (Apr 24, 2009)

immense010 said:


> Ill assume you mean in combat then....
> well 275 pts of GK is just a plain unit of 10 of them.
> Closest i can get to 275 pts of berzerkers is a unit of 11 lead by a skull champion with a power fist, comes to 271pts so the zerkers have a 4 pt advantage.
> 1st lets consider if the GK charge.
> ...



Sorry, to be Pinickty, but GKs dont Get the +1 Attack for charging. 

True Grit special rule gives the +1 for two weapons with SB/NFW but forbids the +1 Attack for charging.)
Three ways combat could play out:
1. GKs charge
2. Neitherside charge (get brought into combat via combats with other units)
3. KB charge.

Consider Case 1. and 2.:

Justicar gets 3 Attacks: 3/2 hits=3/2 x 5/6= 1.25 dead (due to his NFW counting as a PW)
9 Grey [email protected] atks each: 18 x 3/2 x5/6= 7.5 wounds. with a 3+ Armour save on average= 5 Dead.

Total KB killed =(around 6.25)

Korne Bezerkers:
30 Atks=15 Hits=7.5 Wounds= 5 Dead
Skull Champion=1hit x 5/6=0.833 Dead (Due to fist)

GK (6.25 kills) Vs. Korne Bezerkers(5.833) so GK win marginally.
Korne Bezerkers take extra armour save due to being fearless and combat continues. Likely GKs will win in 2nd turn.

However if the KB charge (Case 3 )= dead meat for the GKs:

KB at I.5 Get 40 Atks= 20 hits=13.333 Wounds= 8.866Kills (Seems high I know with a 3+ but I double checked)

Best Case scenario: Justicar +1 GK survive to strike back.
Justicar Gets 3Atks=1.5 Hits x 5/6 =1.25 Dead
GK gets 2 Atks =1 Hits x 5/6 =0.833 wounds= 0.55 dead.
Skull Champ 3Atks=1.5 hits =1.25 Dead

GK loses by 9 (8 at best) and take 8 armour saves due to being fearless. GK die horribly.:shok:


Assumptions:
-Assault is not into cover. If assault is in cover, GK go last and will get munched like scenario 3.



Lessons:
1. GKs have storm bolters for a reason! Whittle those numbers down!
2. Dont send PAGK to do what termies should probably be doing
3. Gk have acces to a massive armoury to bolster the odds. Make the most of it......
*4. DONT GET CHARGED BY KORNE BEZERKERS:russianroulette:*


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## OrdoMalleus (Apr 24, 2009)

OddJob said:


> Ketchup, Mayonaise or Mustard? Discuss.


Mustard (Modelled as lysander)

Mayonaise (Modelled as a wraithlord)

Ketchup (Modelled as a blood thirster)

Mustard Vs. Mayonaise:
Mayonaise @I.4
2 Atks x 1 Hits=0.833 wounds. 3++ Invun =0.5 Wounds

Mustard 3 Atks x4/6 +(2/9 for MC Reroll)=2.5 Hits 
Str.10 (Hammer of Dorn) =2.5 x 2.0833 Wounds.

Mayonaise Loses combat and takes 2extra Armour saves due to being fearless.

*MUSTARD WINS!*

Mustard Vs. Kethcup and Ketchup Vs. Mayonaise will appear once I am at a computer and not on my phone!:lazy2:


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## Xela (Dec 22, 2010)

Logan Grimnar, Njal Stormcaller, Ulrik the slayer, and Ragnar Blackmane in one super HQ unit squad?


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## OrdoMalleus (Apr 24, 2009)

Xela said:


> Logan Grimnar, Njal Stormcaller, Ulrik the slayer, and Ragnar Blackmane in one super HQ unit squad?



How many points is that?!?! lol

But yea, Im sure I could find some combination of GK Grandmasters to take that on


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## Xela (Dec 22, 2010)

It's 985pts...nice and affordable lol That does include terminator armour for Njal and the woves for Blackmane. And until the new GK codex comes out I say 'BRING IT GRANDMASTERS'


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## OrdoMalleus (Apr 24, 2009)

Noooo! becuase with the new codex I am probably going to lose the ability to cheeky instant kill even eternal warriors 

The only thing keeping my GMs good is there broken forceweapon rules!! :biggrin:


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## Xela (Dec 22, 2010)

Well only Logan has Eternal Warrior, everyone else can be killed insantly, but I'd like to see your shiny marines try!


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## OrdoMalleus (Apr 24, 2009)

Xela said:


> Well only Logan has Eternal Warrior, everyone else can be killed insantly, but I'd like to see your shiny marines try!


No, no aGK GM force weapons (at least the ones untill the new codex comes out :angry ingore eternal warrior so even logan can be instantly killed. 

Btw, Even If I max out the unit size and take HQs in the same unit, I cant get to 981! points! :shok: I may have to wait untill the new dex makes things more expensive!


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## Xela (Dec 22, 2010)

OrdoMalleus said:


> I may have to wait untill the new dex makes things more expensive!


Expensive but better! I'm assuming the GK force weapon works like the Jaws of the World Wolf in terms of just removing the model as a casualty instead?


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## Bayonet (Aug 13, 2010)

immense010 said:


> Well let's consider how much damage each would do to MEQ. (without the first rank fire, second rank fire..I'll deal with that seperately at the end) Also gave the sergent a plasma pistol to even the points out (for sake of bigger numbers and better average, I'll assume both do be within rapid fire range)
> 
> Veterans:
> Grenade launcher, krak=3 shots*2/3=2 hits*5/6=5/3 wounds*1/3=5/9 dead marines.
> ...




Love it! Don't feel as dumb for running a horde guard list now :biggrin:


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## Bayonet (Aug 13, 2010)

Okay another quick one then.

Chimera with Heavy Bolter + Multi-Laser

or

Chimera with Heavy Bolter + Heavy Bolter

Same point costs, which is more effective?


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## immense010 (Feb 3, 2009)

Bayonet said:


> Okay another quick one then.
> 
> Chimera with Heavy Bolter + Multi-Laser
> 
> ...


So essentially, that boils down to a question of what kills stuff better, a multi-laser or a heavy bolter.

Well for starters they're both identical when it comes down to any of the following:

Anything T8+ (of which i count only the wraithlord, outside of apocalypse)
Anything T3- (i.e. most eldar, imperial guard, half of tau, sisters of battle, and some daemons, some tyranids)
Anything without an armour save of 5(i.e. anything not imperial guard, dark eldar, some eldar, few tyranids)

So heres a chart of what different cases we could be looking at, with an example i'll test out(no need to test cases in red):



...................................................T3- 

.....................Yes.................. No, but T8+ .................No, and not T8+
S
a
v.....Yes.....Guardsmen..................None........................Shryke brood 
......................(I) ..........................................................(II)

o
f.......No....Dire Avengers..........Wraithlord...................Tactical Marines 
....................................................................................(III)
5


Case (I)

They'll both cause the same number of wounds, but the multi laser will only cause 2/3 of the wounds the multi-laser causes. Thus the heavy bolter is 1.5 times better than the multi laser for these things.


Case (II)

Here I'll use a bit of algebra, since the difference between individual rolls does change depending on the different rolls you need, i.e. improving a wound roll of 5+ to 4+ is different (in terms of value) to improving a wound roll from 4+ to 3+

Let the multi laser wound on n. Then the heavy bolter wounds on n+1.
On average, they'll hit 1.5 times (3 shots, 4+ to hit). so to wound:
Heavy bolter=1.5(6-n)/6=(6-n)/4
Multi laser=(1.5(7-n)/6)*2/3=(7-n)/6

So on average, the heavy bolter is ((6-n)/2)/((7-n)/3)=(3(6-n))/(2(7-n)) times better. This table summarises the actual values:

Toughness:............4...........5...........6...........7
Heavy Bolter is:.....6/5........9/8.........1..........3/4 times as good

For those of you who aren't good with fractions, the difference between the two decreases as the toughness increases, going from 1.2 times as good against T4 (most things in this category, eg space marines) to 0.75 as good for toughness 7 stuff (so actually worse). There are only very few things here, such as shryke broods and ogryns so, I'll take the expected value to be the simple average of 1.01875 (163/160), so the heavy bolter comes out only marginally better.

Case (III)

Again, I'll use algebra, and this time we don't need to worry about saves.
Same hits, but this time the wounds'll be:
Heavy bolter=1.5(6-n)/6=(6-n)/4
Multi laser=(1.5(7-n)/6)=(7-n)/4

So the Heavy Bolter'll be (6-n)/(7-n) times better than the Multi Laser (since the 4's cancel out). And the chart this time'll look like this:

Toughness:............4...........5...........6...........7
Heavy Bolter is:.....4/5........3/4.........2/3........1/2 times as good

So this time, the heavy bolter is always worse, and worsening as it gets along, starting off at 0.8 at T4 going down to 0.5 at T5. since most things here fall under the T4 category (space marines, etc) and a few things fall under the t5 category (most nurgle stuff) I'll be taking the overall average to be a bit biassed towards T4/5, and go for roughly 0.78 (39/50)for this.

Note the only thing not covered in this list is feel no pain for t3- units, i.e. dark eldar with pain token/guard with medic. In this case the multi laser ends up better, since heavy bolter will only allow a 4+ save, while a multi laser will only allow a 5+ save, so on average, more things'll die in this case to the multi laser. Actually in this case it's 4/3 times as good.


So in the same chart as earlier, here are the results (in how much more effective a heavy bolter is). From there, your answer depends on what you're mostly facing:


...................................................T3- 

.....................Yes.................. No, but T8+ .................No, and not T8+
S
a
v.....Yes..........1.5.......................None...........................1.01875
e

o
f.......No...........1............................1.................................0.78 

5


So non-5+ save and T4-7 stuff and dark eldar (after they have FnP) you'll be better off with a multi-laser, for everything else you're better off going for heavy bolter. Either way, there's not too much of a difference.

NB. If the unit with 5+ armour save is in cover, or has a 5+ or better invulnerable save, treat it as not having an armour save (since they'll always take the best save possible)


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

What about 8 zerks, Skull champ w/ fist vs 5 TH/SS termis?

+rep for all your work you've put into this thread


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## Bayonet (Aug 13, 2010)

Awesome thanks alot, again!

Can't give you any more rep yet regretably but that's great. I prefer the Heavy Bolter model on the Chimera than the Multi-Laser so it pretty much looks like I'll stick to it!


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## immense010 (Feb 3, 2009)

Iron_Freak220 said:


> What about 8 zerks, Skull champ w/ fist vs 5 TH/SS termis?
> 
> +rep for all your work you've put into this thread


Hehe truth be told this is something I've always been curious...since one person i regularly play against always includes said unit of terminators (except he goes for 10)

So there's 2 cases we need to test.

Case 1 - Terminators charge
Case 2 - Khorne Berzerkers Charge


*Case 1:*
_Combat round 1:_
Berzerkers attack, 21 attacks*2/3=14 hits*1/2=7 wounds*1/6=7/6 dead.
Skull Champion attacks, 3 attacks*2/3=2 hits*5/6=5/3 wounds*1/3=5/9 dead

23/6 Terminators left= 23/2 attacks*1/2=23/4 hits*5/6=115/24 dead.

End of round results: Termies kill 115/24 (almost 5), Zerkers kill 31/18 (almost 2).
So Termies win by 221/72 (about 3.06), so they take 221/72*1/3=another 221/216 dead.
So altogether they lose 157/27 altogether.
Termies remaining=59/18
Zerkers remaining=59/27

_Combat round 2:_

Berzerkers attack, 32/9 attacks*2/3=64/27 hits*1/2=32/27 wounds*1/6=16/81 dead.
Skull Champion attacks, 3 attacks*2/3=2 hits*5/6=5/3 wounds*1/3=5/9 dead

Termies attack, 59/9 attacks=59/18 hits*5/6=295/108 dead.

End of round results:
Termies kill 295/108 (about 2.75), Zerkers kill 61/81 (about 0.75).
So termies win by 641/324 and cause an extra 641/972 wounds.
Zerkers thus lose 824/243 overall.
Termies remaining: 409/162 (roughly 2.5)
Zerkers remaining: -293/243

So termies win with just over 1 overkill and 2.5 remaining.

*Case 2: Zerkers Charge*

We'll assume that since they're charging and don't have fleet, they're not gonna waste a round of shooting first.

_Preliminary Shooting Phase:_
8 Zerkers=8 shots*2/3=16/3 hits*1/2=8/3 wounds*1/6=4/9 dead.
So Termies start the combat with 41/9 models.

_Combat round 1:_
Berzerkers attack, 28 attacks*2/3=56/3 hits*2/3=102/9 wounds*1/6=17/9 dead.
Skull Champion attacks, 4 attacks*2/3=8/3 hits*5/6=20/9 wounds*1/3=20/27dead

8/3 Terminators left= 16/3 attacks*1/2=8/3 hits*5/6=40/18 dead.

End of round results: Termies kill 40/18 (just over 2), Zerkers kill 71/27(about 2.5).
So Zerkers win by 11/27 (about 3.06). (We'll assume that Terminators passed their morale check, since factoring that in makes this a lot more complicated than it needs to be, and the overall difference is only slight).
Termies remaining=52/27 Zerkers remaining=145/27.

_Combat round 2:_

Berzerkers attack, 118/9 attacks*2/3=236/27 hits*1/2=118/27 wounds*1/6=29/81 dead.
Skull Champion attacks, 3 attacks*2/3=2 hits*5/6=5/3 wounds*1/3=5/9 dead

Termies attack, 104/27 attacks*1/2=52/27 hits*5/6=130/81 dead.

End of round results:
Termies kill 130/81 (just over 1.5), Zerkers kill 74/81 (just under 1)
So Termies win by 56/81, causing another 56/243 kills.
Altogether zerkers lose 446/243 models.
Termies remaining: 82/81
Zerkers remaining: 859/243 (about 3.5)

_Combat round 3:_

Berzerkers attack, 616/81 attacks*2/3=1232/243 hits*1/2=616/243 wounds*1/6=308/729 dead.
Skull Champion attacks, 3 attacks*2/3=2 hits*5/6=5/3 wounds*1/3=5/9 dead

Termies attack, 164/81 attacks*1/2=82/81 hits*5/6=205/243 dead.

End of round result:
Termies kill 205/243 (about 0.8), Zerkers kill 713/729 (just under 1). So Zerkers win this round.
Termies remaining: 25/729 (about 0.03)
Zerkers remaining: 218/81 (about 2.7)

_Combat round 4:_

Berzerkers attack, 137/27 attacks*2/3=274/81 hits*1/2=137/81 wounds*1/6=137/486 dead.
Skull Champion attacks, 3 attacks*2/3=2 hits*5/6=5/3 wounds*1/3=5/9 dead

Termies attack, 50/729 attacks*1/2=25/729 hits*5/6=125/4374 dead.

End of round result:
Termies kill 125/4374 (about a chip of a single Zerker's fingernail), Zerkers kill 407/486 (about 0.8).
So Zerkers win by 1769/2187.
Termies left: -1171/1458
Zerkers left: about 2.7 (my calculator doesn't like fractions this big, and i don't particularly fancy doing it in my head.)

So Zerkers win with 0.8(ish) overkill and 2.7 remaining.

So the winner is whoever charges, the termies having the edge (more decisive and shorter combat). In terms of points, the termies are slightly higher, I personally think this is well reflected in this example.


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

Good to know. I hate those damn TH/SS. Good to know ive got a statistical advantage on the charge


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## Marshal Ragnar (Sep 5, 2010)

which is better against MC. 5 sterngaurd with a Razerback with assault cannons that has a Librarian with null zone and avenger attached, or 5 SS/TH termies with a Librarian in termie armor with SS with null zone and GoI. I dont know if thats to much for your math but anything you can give me would be great. I cant decide between the two for a tourney coming up and Im hoping you can help. Thanks.


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## immense010 (Feb 3, 2009)

Marshal Ragnar said:


> which is better against MC. 5 sterngaurd with a Razerback with assault cannons that has a Librarian with null zone and avenger attached, or 5 SS/TH termies with a Librarian in termie armor with SS with null zone and GoI. I dont know if thats to much for your math but anything you can give me would be great. I cant decide between the two for a tourney coming up and Im hoping you can help. Thanks.


Well truth be told I can't really give you a full answer to this, mainly just because it depends on too much...i.e. what sort of monstrous creature, how much terrain there is (for GoI) etc, I can give you some sort of indication, but it would really help if you could let me know what sorts of MCs you expect to be facing, since some things are better than others in specific cases (eg. null zone is completely useless against a carnifex, whereas it's one of the best things you could possibly take against a greater daemon)..


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## Marshal Ragnar (Sep 5, 2010)

It would mostly be Tyranid MC's. But if the Libby gives it to many variable can you just do it on Sterngaurd shooting it, and the Termies assaulting it?


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## immense010 (Feb 3, 2009)

Marshal Ragnar said:


> It would mostly be Tyranid MC's. But if the Libby gives it to many variable can you just do it on Sterngaurd shooting it, and the Termies assaulting it?


Sorry for the late reply, had a lot going on at the moment with my degree, and also as such gonna keep it fairly short (in comparison to what it would have been otherwise). I'll just deal with the main tyranid MC, the Hive Tyrant, since most tyranid MC's follow the basic pattern of T6, save 3+, 4/6 wounds, 4(ish) attacks.

As for the Librarian, null zone is pretty much pointless here (unless you plan on facing off against the swarmlord in CC), so I'll assume he's just gonna be using avenger when in with the sternguard, although to be honest there's not really anything I can do to evaluate GoI, as it's pretty much just a tactical tool to get you somewhere important and ready to strike next turn, so I'll assume he's saving his psychic ability for his force weapon.

(assuming equipped with a pair of scything talons, acid blood and armoured shell)

Sternguard Shooting (hellfire rounds):
5 sternguard = 10 shots = 20/3 hits = 100/18 wounds = 50/56 wounds caused.

Librarian:
11/12 hits = 11/36 wounds = 11/216 wounds caused.

Razorback:
4 shots = 32/9 hits = 16/27 rending + 32/27 non reding wounds = 64/81 wounds.

Altogether = 7865/4536 wounds (about 1.7)

Terminators in combat (assuming hive tyrant charge):

Hive tyrant= 5 attack = 40/9 hits = 100/27 wounds = 100/81 wounds.
305/81 terminators = 610/81 attacks = 305/81 hits = 1525/486 wounds (about 3.1)
librarian = 2 attacks = 1 hit = 1/6 wounds.

So vs. the hive tyrant, the terminators are clearly much better off. Now to be honest a hive tyrant with armoured shell is pretty much the toughest you'll have to face, since the rest are basically T6, 3+ save (the termies are still better off) and with either 4 or 6 wounds. On top of that, the terminators are a hell of a lot more resilient, (eg. mawloc popping out of the ground will ignore sternguard armour saves) so tbh the answer from me will have to be the terminators. 

Good luck for the tournament, and sorry again for the late (and short) reply.


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## Marshal Ragnar (Sep 5, 2010)

Thanks. ++rep

But how about this. Would a 5 man command squad with an apothacary and 4 plasma guns do better against a Hive Tyrant?


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## XYBAheart (Mar 31, 2011)

Gold170492 said:


> What would be better
> 
> Full unit of Pariah with a Load with VoD
> 
> ...


besides points, the pariahs are better, same weapon, and waesome close combat abilities, the lord should have a lightning feild though, to make up for pariahs not having necron special rule:ireful2:, also thogh that means you can be more aggresive without worrying about phase out.


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