# Possessed or non Possessed?



## Dark Apostle Marduk (Sep 30, 2015)

So I have been hearing some rumors around the mill about the use of Possessed marines. I have been kind of skeptical, and I wanted to hear your guy's opinions.

From people I ask they usually say if I were going to play something of their nature, just use Berzerkers.

On the other hand, some people say that if you're really intent on using possessed, you should play Gal Vorbak, but they don't have their own rules, right?? 

What do you guys think?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

They have a new formation in the Crimson Slaughter book, a Daemon Prince and 2-5 units of Possessed - for as long as the Possessed remain within I think 12" of the Prince they get WS5, I5 and Rending, which is probably enough to make them okayish. Better than Berzerkers, at any rate - neither Possessed nor Berzerkers are very impressive, truth be told, but the Crimson Slaughter Possessed I think have potential. The possibility of getting Beast movement is just really helpful, although sadly it kinda stops them from using transports and 6" + Run isn't really enough this edition. Most people will say Possessed are absolute garbage, and to be frank they are (look at their rules and then look at Wulfen and weep; weep!), but most people will also tell you that you can't win with CSM ever and they're a shitty terrible army that has nothing good at all, which is patently wrong, so I'm still holding out a glimmer of hope for a Possessed list, almost certainly centred around the aforementioned Crimson Slaughter formation, will prove to be at least viable if not particularly spectacular.

The Gal Vorbak have rules in 30k, and are a totally different animal (they're _monsters_, tough as nails and they're coming to punch you in the balls very very hard and make you never have children).


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## Dark Apostle Marduk (Sep 30, 2015)

I did read about the Crimson Slaughter Possessed and looked interesting. I have never played with them simply because I have a huge interest in the fluff. Unfortunatly I am kind out of options at the moment and want some kind of CC unit. I asked a couple people at a GW store near me, and both seem to agree that if I had to choose a unit, I should go with Berzerkers. However, the fluff kinda makes me think different because I don't think zerkers would be in a Word Bearers army. However, they are Undivided so technically, it could happen.

I just really want a Gal Vorbak unit and play with their rules in a 40k match. hah... maybe I'll get someone who really doesn't give a crap and let me. ha


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## alt-f4 (May 18, 2015)

"The Tormented" (i.e. Daemon Prince + 2 units of Possessed WS5, I5, S5 and Rending) seems to be a "Black Legion" formation (so, without the "Slaves to the Voices" table, but the usual "Vessels of Chaos" one). These would remain the closest Possessed to the ForgeWorld Gal Vorbak of HH.

The new "Crimson Slaughter" seems to have a "Dark Covenant" formation, with one unit of Possessed getting "Zealot" (i.e. with "Hatred") and "Feel no Pain !" when in 12'' of a Dark Apostle who is shouting instead of shooting. That could be interesting too, with 1-3 Space Marines units getting the same bonuses.

I play Word Bearers too, on a fluffy base coming from BL HH books (principally "The First Heretic"), and Possessed (Gal Vorbak inheritance) are the first unit I put in every list. The best results I've had with them is with the "Crimson Slaughter" ones : marked by Slaanesh, with an Icon of Excess and a (unaligned, with Malefic Daemonology) Possessed Sorcerer joining.

What I would like to try up next : two units of Possessed, one marked by Khorne, the other by Slaanesh and a Landraider. That gives me 1/3 chances for each unit for the first turn to be able to make their transport "Shrouded". If it is the case, that unit moves into the Landraider, which moves on 12'' and uses smoke launchers for a 3+ cover save at first turn (being in charge range at second turn, with a well-placed Dirge Caster and, maybe, Destroyer Blades too). But it costs a lot


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## Dark Apostle Marduk (Sep 30, 2015)

I was actually thinking more from the novel "The Unburdened". Much more descriptive of the Gal Vorbak. 

However, that is a pretty awesome book. 

I'm thinking I may just even use the models as the Crimson Slaughter formation, which doesn't sound too awful at all.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

alt-f4 said:


> What I would like to try up next : two units of Possessed, one marked by Khorne, the other by Slaanesh and a Landraider. That gives me 1/3 chances for each unit for the first turn to be able to make their transport "Shrouded". If it is the case, that unit moves into the Landraider, which moves on 12'' and uses smoke launchers for a 3+ cover save at first turn (being in charge range at second turn, with a well-placed Dirge Caster and, maybe, Destroyer Blades too).


I'm pretty sure that Slaves to the Voices doesn't apply to your transport vehicle as well, amigo.



Dark Apostle Marduk said:


> I asked a couple people at a GW store near me, and both seem to agree that if I had to choose a unit, I should go with Berzerkers. However, the fluff kinda makes me think different because I don't think zerkers would be in a Word Bearers army. However, they are Undivided so technically, it could happen.


I guess out of the two Berzerkers are the least bad.

What my friend did with his Possessed was take them off their 25mm bases, and glue two Possessed to each 40mm base. Now he runs them as Spawn, and to be honest I think if you're going to run a melee unit as CSM it's going to have to be Spawn as they're fast, tough, and reasonably durable, and make an excellent home for a Biker/Juggernaught Lord to boot.


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## alt-f4 (May 18, 2015)

MidnightSun said:


> I'm pretty sure that Slaves to the Voices doesn't apply to your transport vehicle as well, amigo.


In this case, they do, as it is clearly stated :

"1 Spirit Beacons : The unit, and any vehicle they are embarked upon, gains the Shrouded special rule"

Note that it comes from the first version of the "Crimson Slaughter" supplement, though. The formation comes from the revised version, where everything else could have changed ...



> I guess out of the two Berzerkers are the least bad.
> 
> What my friend did with his Possessed was take them off their 25mm bases, and glue two Possessed to each 40mm base. Now he runs them as Spawn, and to be honest I think if you're going to run a melee unit as CSM it's going to have to be Spawn as they're fast, tough, and reasonably durable, and make an excellent home for a Biker/Juggernaught Lord to boot.


That's also an option, yes. Another thing about the Possessed : into their few options, there is the possibility to give two "Gifts of Mutation" to the Champion. But Chaos Boons are already too random and not useful for usual CSM, and it is even worse for Possessed, as some match abilities that they already have, while other ones are a complete waste ("Great, I now have Fearless BS 5 Possessed" :crazy


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## alt-f4 (May 18, 2015)

Dark Apostle Marduk said:


> I was actually thinking more from the novel "The Unburdened". Much more descriptive of the Gal Vorbak.
> 
> However, that is a pretty awesome book.
> 
> I'm thinking I may just even use the models as the Crimson Slaughter formation, which doesn't sound too awful at all.


I haven't read "The Unburdened" yes but, at first sight (from the pitch of the book), our point of views differ : the Word Bearers that Lorgar chose to deploy on Calth have been part of the Second Purge of the Legion, i.e. getting rid of those who remained too close to the Imperium, the fight against it, and the hatred to the Ultramarines, while his true Blessed Sons followed him into the rest of the Shadow Crusade. The real Gal Vorbak has almost been wiped out on Isstvan V. Those upon Calth were a second batch that Argel Tal tried to recreate (but with no such success as Ingethel did upon the Orpheus Lament).

This symbolizes the Word Bearers schism (that still exists in 40K) between the secular view (Erebus and the Dark Council) and the regular one (a secluded Lorgar in the Templum Inficio). The former takes part into Black Crusades, while the latter is more spiritual and religious, worshipping Chaos Gods, whatever the Imperium exists or not.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

alt-f4 said:


> In this case, they do, as it is clearly stated :
> 
> "1 Spirit Beacons : The unit, and any vehicle they are embarked upon, gains the Shrouded special rule"
> 
> Note that it comes from the first version of the "Crimson Slaughter" supplement, though. The formation comes from the revised version, where everything else could have changed ...


Well bugger me sideways and call me Sally, that's neat as hell.


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## Dark Apostle Marduk (Sep 30, 2015)

alt-f4 said:


> almost been wiped out


Key words there.  They are in more than one novel, bud. Thanks for the input though!


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## alt-f4 (May 18, 2015)

Dark Apostle Marduk said:


> Key words there.  They are in more than one novel, bud. Thanks for the input though!


But there is only one ADB :biggrin:

I however put "The Unburdened" into my "to read list" (even if I fear that this book has principally been written as a support to the "Betrayal at Calth" game and that I would somehow be disappointed by the second batch of Gal Vorbak compared to the original ones).

Coming back to the real subject, now, "The Tormented" seems to be the closest formation to FW Gal Vorbak, but it remains rather expensive :

- The Daemon Prince can be set up as it is often used into "hardest" CSM lists (flying, mark of Nurgle, psyker 3) for a cost between 250 and 315 points (the latter with psyker 3 and an artefact like the Skull of Ker'ngar),

- The Possessed probably become the best melee troops of the Codex (except for the lack of offensive grenades, which is probably the most frustrating feature with them), even if they are still quite fragile for their cost. It's possible to strengthen them with marks of Khorne or Slaanesh and their related Icons, and VotLW is useful for their Ld test each turn (for a cost between 130 and 170 each, for only 5 Possessed in each squad),

- The main issue, as far as they don't use the "Crimson Slaughter's Slaves to the Voices" table, is to bring them into melee (preferrably at turn 2). That can be done with Landraiders (extremely expensive, because 2 of them are needed), FW Drop Pods (when allowed, making them even closer to the Gal Vorbak Rite of War in 30k) or by choosing Huron or Ahriman as Warlord of the army (allowing the infiltration of 1D3 units).


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## Dark Apostle Marduk (Sep 30, 2015)

ADB is super over rated by newb brown nosers. They are way better out there.

Now, we're getting off topic...

Someone pointed out playing actual Chaos Spawn, but how many would you guys play?

That would be interesting, but since they only come in a box of two, I'm not quite sure how many to get!


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## alt-f4 (May 18, 2015)

Dark Apostle Marduk said:


> ADB is super over rated by newb brown nosers. They are way better out there.


Wow ... many thanks for that compliment (even if I can't see who people would try to please so inelegantly by liking an author's work or not :biggrin: )



> Now, we're getting off topic...


You're right. And this one is definitely closed for me.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

I honestly seem to be alone in not really caring for the Crimson Slaughter Possessed--if you could pick and choose which bonus you get per turn (say, like Oblits and Mutilators), the ability to a) speed up (if not in a vehicle), b) get cover (even if in a vehicle), and boost combat abilities might be nice--but as it stands, you have no control over when you are in combat gaining Shrouded or turning into Beasts, and that's 2/3 of the time no combat buffs.

The demerits for standard Possessed are that they are: over-priced, fragile, lacking combat grenades; and lacking mobility. Randomly helping out the fragile and lacking mobility, which are situationally needed, rather than reliably getting some sort of close combat buff... strikes me as inefficient. I can build around their slowness and fragility, not still have to build around it but hope for whichever 1/3 chance I need that turn. If I get them a Fire Raptor as a transport who cares if they turn into Beasts that turn? If they're stuck in combat who cares if they get Shrouded?

I want reliability, not flukey partial compensation for their flaws.

Anyways, Possessed are... not great, on paper. The best use I've found for them is as the second punch in a one-two wave in my Khorne Daemonkin army, since they're a necessary part of a Slaughter Cult formation. When I have 8-odd squads of minimum-strength Bikers and Flesh Hounds, a full Goretide, zipping forward, most of the time my opponents don't really have the shooting to also focus on my 5 Possessed (with naked lord with Bloodthirster-summonging axe in) and the 2 squads of 10 CSM who disembark from their Rhinos after running forward to hit in a second wave behind all the Maulerfiends, Bikers, Flesh Hounds, etc. When your opponent is juggling too many other targets to shoot at, and the Possessed have both Rage and Furious Charge, they pack a surprising wallop against anything that isn't in 2+ armor.

*is not going to rise to the flamebait about AD-B, who is certainly in the upper tier of BL's authors. But then, also my favorite BL author is Matt Farrer, so clearly take my opinions with a grain of salt*


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Why does nobody ever bring a Prince with the Burning Brand of Skalathrax? I don't tend to see that item around at all these days in fact, which is a shame, a mini-Heldrake Daemon Prince would be dope and it's a really good 'gotcha' to have stuck on a Sorceror or Slaanesh Lord or what have you.


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## Dark Apostle Marduk (Sep 30, 2015)

MidnightSun said:


> Why does nobody ever bring a Prince with the Burning Brand of Skalathrax? I don't tend to see that item around at all these days in fact, which is a shame, a mini-Heldrake Daemon Prince would be dope and it's a really good 'gotcha' to have stuck on a Sorceror or Slaanesh Lord or what have you.


Honestly, I have been looking for a good formation for my Prince. This has given me a good idea! Thanks for this.

Also, would it be feasible to have a prince with a squad of a couple Hellspawn? Or does that not make sense at all?


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## ExaltedUrizen (Jul 26, 2013)

Another Word Bearers player here, I have used possessed as both their 40K and 30K equivalents. But seeing as prefer my possessed ADB style, I tend to use the Crimson Slaughter supplement for mine. It may have just been me being very lucky, but a unit of 5 possessed with mark of tzeentch worked very well for me, with a 4+ (sometimes 2+) invun, they can be pretty survivable. And with the new Crimson Slaughter formations, feel no pain at no extra cost. As I said, I'm not sure if I'm just very lucky, but each game iv'e played, the possessed at the very least have made back their points.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Dark Apostle Marduk said:


> Honestly, I have been looking for a good formation for my Prince. This has given me a good idea! Thanks for this.


I've never understood why people don't bring it - CSM Princes are pretty objectively worse than CD Princes, so make the most of what you do have and bring a Relic that, it turns out, is really well-suited to a Prince. Hell, I'd kill to have access to the BBoS for my Ultramarines, and my Guard would hardly turn their noses up at it.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> CSM Princes are pretty objectively worse than CD Princes, so make the most of what you do have and bring a Relic that, it turns out, is really well-suited to a Prince.


Yeah. Though I'd probably take another Relic even more suited to a Prince first: namely, the Black Mace. Yeah, you have to get stuck in for it to have an effect, but... on the other hand, a Prince without one hits like a mere MC, rather than a freight train of pain. And a Heldrake is markedly cheaper for a higher-strength Torrent, even if it is harder to get a good cover save with and has some angles it needs to work on, now that it's 360 degree firing arc has been nerfed.

But yeah, CD DPs are generally better. Access to Greater Rewards for surivability, not having to take a crappy god-based psychic power... just about the only other edge for CSM DPs is the spell familiar. Well, that and the fact that the "Daemon of Nurgle" rule is worded slightly differently to give them defensive grenades in the CSM book, but talk about minute nit-picking, eh?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> Yeah. Though I'd probably take another Relic even more suited to a Prince first: namely, the Black Mace. Yeah, you have to get stuck in for it to have an effect, but... on the other hand, a Prince without one hits like a mere MC, rather than a freight train of pain. And a Heldrake is markedly cheaper for a higher-strength Torrent, even if it is harder to get a good cover save with and has some angles it needs to work on, now that it's 360 degree firing arc has been nerfed.


Yeah, Black Mace helps you take out Wraithknights and Riptides, but against basically everything else I've never seen it make a huge difference, and even with the Mace a Daemon Prince just isn't very good in combat; I think they're super good at picking off Devastators, IG Veterans, Windriders, Tactical Squads etc. but if you find a basic SM Dreadnought to be a seriously risky proposition, you're probably not a very good assault unit. Hell, even charging 10 Tacticals through terrain (because you can't kill most of them with the Brand before you charge) is going to cost you a embarrassing couple of wounds from Krak Grenades. Better to fly about the place picking off the weak with your BBoS and landing to keep up that kind of work against backfield support units than gun for something that can actually fight back. The Heldrake has a stronger shot and is cheaper, for sure, but a Heldrake's going to get maybe four rounds of shooting if it doesn't get shot at all. A Prince can shoot every turn of the game, and that's a pretty big deal, as well as being much tougher (mainly through being really small and easy to hide) when he's on the ground to assault/get objectives.



Mossy Toes said:


> But yeah, CD DPs are generally better. Access to Greater Rewards for surivability, not having to take a crappy god-based psychic power... just about the only other edge for CSM DPs is the spell familiar. Well, that and the fact that the "Daemon of Nurgle" rule is worded slightly differently to give them defensive grenades in the CSM book, but talk about minute nit-picking, eh?


Infernal Tetrad, ho!


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> Better to fly about the place picking off the weak with your BBoS and landing to keep up that kind of work against backfield support units than gun for something that can actually fight back.


I dunno, though: against the weak you have the rest of your army. CSM really struggle against such hard-hitters as Wraithknights and the like, since their fancy overpriced infantry that suck up all their uniqueness die just as easily as normal marines (only 2x the cost per mini!) against such enemies. Riptides, Dreadknights, Terminators, Centurions, special characters... enemy Walkers are a weakness, admittedly, but that's why I pack melta on all my bikes.

Your "assault 10 Tac marines in cover" scenario has piqued my interest. So, Mathhammer, engage! Assuming that you don't assault the marines on the end of the squad, or something, so that all 10 of them can pile in and hit with their krak grenades... well, they're hitting on 5+, wounding on 3+, and getting saved by armor on 3+, so barring you having Iron Arm or something, 10 krak attacks equate out to about .72 unsaved wounds on average. "Usually oneish wounds" seems bearable to me--then you strike back, kill more than half the squad*, leave a few survivors so they can't shoot you during your turn, then finish them off during their turn. Your 265-350 point assault shagnasty has just cleared a 220 point Tac squad for 1 of its 4 wounds, at no diminishment of combat output.

*assuming no asshole of a "1" cropping up for your extra attacks.

...ok, this has been a fun avenue of thought to run down, but not a productive one. *ahem*



MidnightSun said:


> Infernal Tetrad, ho!


Wheeeee!


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

A. I thought that a Prince was only WS8 (only!), being WS9 is a big deal defensively.

B. Did not know that the Black Mace was a Daemon Weapon. That makes it... _way_ better than I gave it credit for.

I still think that a draconic Daemon Prince with the BBoS as him breathing fire would be dank as fuck though. And let's face it, you're playing Chaos because they're fucking awesome, not because you're in it to win it (though I maintain that you can make a fairly reasonable middle tables army out of them; they're not the greatest, absolutely not, and they're not going to fight off Librarius Superfriends/Eldar/Decurion/War Convocation but you can certainly stand your ground against Orks, non-Convocation AdMech, Tyranids, Imperial Guard, and all the other also-rans.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> A. I thought that a Prince was only WS8 (only!), being WS9 is a big deal defensively.


Nah, it's I8 that they are only. Gotta love WS9, though it does make the "reduce enemies to WS and BS 1" Invisibility nerf in the ITC faq pretty crappy since... a 5+ is already what it took anything WS4 or below, which is to say 85% of the minis with a WS characteristic in the game, to be able to hit you.



MidnightSun said:


> I still think that a draconic Daemon Prince with the BBoS as him breathing fire would be dank as fuck though. And let's face it, you're playing Chaos because they're fucking awesome, not because you're in it to win it (though I maintain that you can make a fairly reasonable middle tables army out of them; they're not the greatest, absolutely not, and they're not going to fight off Librarius Superfriends/Eldar/Decurion/War Convocation but you can certainly stand your ground against Orks, non-Convocation AdMech, Tyranids, Imperial Guard, and all the other also-rans.


Agreed on all points!


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