# Grey Hunters loadouts & setups (was more/less men/squads)



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I've been pondering a troops core for a hypothetical SW list (actually it would be BA as SW, using the SW rules to whip up an old-school Ground Pounder/rhino rush type BA list)

Anyway, I was thinking either...


9x GH, 1 MG, 1 PW, 1 Mark of the Wolfen, 1 WG w/PF, Rhino 243
x4 @ 972 total

OR
5x GH, 1 MG, 1 PW, 1 MoTW, 1 WG w/PF, HB Razorback 188
x5 @ 940 total

It's 10 less men (and 32 less points), but 1 more PF, PW, MoTW, MG and 4 TLHB that didn't exist before, and an extra scoring unit.

Only problem is, the units are more fragile now, less ablative wounds and more points per model on average.

OR...bonus option, just off the top of my head.
15x Bloodclaws, Flamer, Melta, PW, WG w/PF, Razorback (for cover and fire support) 318
x3 @ 954

Less mobility, less scoring units, hell of a lot more boots on the ground though.


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## bob_the_grea (Jul 27, 2009)

can i just ask why your taking mark of the wulfen in your grey hunters? is it purely for torrent of fire?

if it were me, the 4x10 grey hunters win it hands down for me mate.
not to many kill points, very effective, 10 are a hard unit to shift, 5 just doesnt cut it.

as for the blood claws, not keen on them tbh.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Why MoTW on Grey Hunters?
Because they;re about the only model worth taking it for.
+1d6 bonus attacks that all rend? Yes please.

Against MEqs, assuming a roll of 3+1 being average for number of attacks, MoTW averages 0.55 unsaved wounds and the PW 0.5. A fractional increase, sure, but it means it's as good or slightly better on average as the PW, and against models with lower armor or higher toughness it works out better (Against T5 the power weapon averages .33 and the MoTW averages .44, against Sv4+ PW stays at .5, MoTW averages .66)

Sure, the motw is variable in the number of attacks, but it could just as easily roll more more than less, so it averages out. Some rounds it;s fantastically better than a PW, others it's about half as good. And as I said, lower saves and/or higher T make the extra attacks with rending better than the fixed number of PW swings.

Could compromise, take 2 10x Rhino units and 3 6xRazors for 1050 

100 more points than 5x6, but still within the range I was thinking (I usually like to spend about 2/3 on troops since 5th), gains 8 bodies over the 5x6 plan, loses 2 HBs but keeps the same number of upgrades and scoring units. (or to think of it the other way, loses 2 men over the 4x10 but gains 3 HBs, an extra set of upgrades and an extra scoring unit, for about 70 points)

I think it might be a decent balance, assuming I can find the extra points for it.


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## bob_the_grea (Jul 27, 2009)

ahh fair enough, i was trying to decide wether or not to put it in my g.h but thought a p.w and a p.f would be enough, but thats not bad logic at all matey =] kudos to you sir.

i just think the small squads are asking to be cheap kill points, especially with the razorbacks.

the hybrid 2x10 3x6 my be a little better, i mean it would be alot for an oponent to deal with. guess you just have to test run it a few times.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Bah.

10 GH, 2x Meltas, 1x PFist, MotW, Rhino = 220pts
4x = 880pts.

Leaves you some points for a Long Fang HB Squad, or a Vindicator. Run round 2x Meltaing Anything, then dropping off at T4 on an objective, and then rely on counter attack, and Thunderwolves to counter any last ditch assaults. Against enemy gunlines, and I can change, I usually take a blob or two of Bloodclaws.

4 S4 Attacks for anyone is a scary enough for anyone, particularly when they have a D6+3 Rending attacks and 2 Pfists inside.

Bloodclaws took a hit with the increase in Assault Weapon decrease and cost increase, and with Grey Hunters recieving a boost, it became rather poo.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

I think the options are basically 5 guys, maybe with a wolf guard, or 9 guys definitely with one. I can't see any argument for taking 10 grey hunters when the wolf guard gets a cheaper fist with more attacks, and improves the unit's LD. Give him a combi-wep too.

I tend to think bigger squads make sense. A big squad of grey hunters is a hell of a difficult thing for most units to charge. Those 30 attacks when you come in are very bad news for things like orks, especially after taking a bit of rapid firing bolter action. If you want a squad to drive up to something, shoot it and then not be scared fo it, these are the guys.

The other thing is that the actual guys are cheap; it's the upgrades where you spend points. You have a bunch of different special guys, like special weapons, power wep, the wolf guard, somebody with a flag. You don't want these guys to die so you need a bigger-than-average wound sink. As a bonus, you get some of the best troops anywhere as your sink.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I still think 3x6 & 2x10 is a good compromise (if expensive)

I don't get the complaints about razorbacks. It's not like they're 75 points anymore. There's a 5 point difference between a rhino and a razor. If you're running a smaller squad there's pretty much no reason not to take a five-point TLHB for mobile fire support, especially if you're going for assaultyness and need a mobile cover that can rake the enemy lines wiht bolter shells before you charge out from behind it.

But I do get that the small squads are too fragile for their cost

As a BA player, I had a decent amount of luck with small assault squads, especially since you can always double them up if you're facing a hard target, or split them up to grab objectives. 188 points for a heavily equipped 6-man GH team seems like a lot, but after paying 150 for a bare-assed 5-man assault squad I suppose it didn;t look that bad to me LOL

The point I seem to be getting though is that 4x10 should be more than enough. The extra scoring unit is probably not worth trading two strong units for three weaker ones, even if it comes with an overall increase in firepower and assault punch. 

I was thinking that the 6-man I laid out would make a good escort unit, minus a bare-bones GH to make room for a librarian or chappy. A somwhat cheaper, scoring alternative to wolfguard.

Of course, you could do the same thing with the bigger units too and get something that can take more punishment.

But since the consensus seems to be 4x10, what about gear? Are they too blinged out, or not enough?

a 5 point melta seems a no brainer to me, especially since there's not likely to be much else killing tanks besides meltas and fists in this army. (I was thinking missiles on my longfangs, for the sake of versatility and points)

Likewise, I think the wolfguard fist is a far, far better option than the GH fist. Net cost of a WG fist is 23 points (cost of the fist and price difference between a WG and a GH), cost of the GH fist is 25, for half as many swings. Sure, you get a free meltagun along with it but despite the importance of the first melta, I don't think the second is worth paying more for less punch. Especially since instead of a second special shooting weapon it gives you a second (or third counting motw) special ccw.

MoTW, as I discussed earlier, is, I think, certainly worth the cost on a GH. Unless you plan to wrestle terminators on a regular basis, it's even odds or better than the PW.

The power weapon may be a weak link. It's relatively expensive and could be redundant with MoTW and the Fist in the same unit. But at the same time, it does contribute a lot to assault. One PW costs as much as 1 man, but it's 3 times as effective in assault. (against Meqs at least. Overkill against lower-save models)

Would shedding the PW and/or a man or two be worth the savings? Or is it better just to be satisfied that despite their cost, these guys are some of the best equipped troops on the market?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Galahad said:


> Or is it better just to be satisfied that despite their cost, these guys are some of the best equipped troops on the market?


This. Grey Hunters are _excellent_ Troop choices. Probably the best in the game. It's okay to spend points on them in order to ensure that they do their job to the best of their ability.

I'm also totally with Someguy about adding a combi-weapon to the Wolf Guard. It's a way of being able to pretty much still take 2 meltaguns and not lose the highly effective power fist. It's pretty much the only way to have your cake and eat it too.


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## Sqwerlpunk (Mar 1, 2009)

For now I'm going to run 9 men with MotW, Power Weapon, Meltagun, and WG w/ possibly a Combi-Melta/Flamer and Fist. I need a chance to really play around with the different set-ups or something, haven't really had any chance to test, at all, haha.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Sqwerlpunk said:


> For now I'm going to run 9 men with MotW, Power Weapon, Meltagun, and WG w/ possibly a Combi-Melta/Flamer and Fist. I need a chance to really play around with the different set-ups or something, haven't really had any chance to test, at all, haha.


Grrr, thats the set-up I was thinking of using Sqwerl  My WG would have the combi-flamer and fist for sure. I'm also thinking of trying a Flamer/Combi-Meltagun combo, as I plan on having a fair bit of ranged high power stuff and added to the Grey Hunters Krak Grenades/Fists I should be right with just the combi-melta. I'd still have at least one meltagun pack just to make sure of course


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

except for the combi and transport sounds the same as mine. Great minds think alike and all that 

You know, if you've got at least 5 WG you can put one of them in termie armor, give him a PF and a heavy flamer and make him King of Assault Leaders
Stick him in a Bloodclaw Blob in a crusader if you got a ton of points to blow (hell, he could even bring the crusader as the dedicted transport for his WG unit, which likely no longer exists)

Though I'd rather stick my HW Termie in a Longfang pack. 6 MLs and a Cyclone Termie. The Pack Leader can even make the cyclone & SB BS5 while splitting fire.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Galahad said:


> except for the combi and transport sounds the same as mine. Great minds think alike and all that
> 
> You know, if you've got at least 5 WG you can put one of them in termie armor, give him a PF and a heavy flamer and make him King of Assault Leaders
> Stick him in a Bloodclaw Blob in a crusader if you got a ton of points to blow (hell, he could even bring the crusader as the dedicted transport for his WG unit, which likely no longer exists)
> ...


First of all, the Dedicated transport is dedicated to the UNIT, and since the unit is having models removed from it, only the leftovers may be mounted inside it at the start.
If you remove all the WG from the unit, then no unit may be mounted inside at the start.

Second, the Longfang Sergeant doesn't have a Signum, otherwise that plan is scary


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Winterous said:


> First of all, the Dedicated transport is dedicated to the UNIT, and since the unit is having models removed from it, only the leftovers may be mounted inside it at the start.
> If you remove all the WG from the unit, then no unit may be mounted inside at the start.


To quote the sage of the playground <ahem> "Sez Who?" followed swiftly by "Who cares?"

If the WG squad is entirely scattered to the wind then shouldn't any Wolf Guard member from that squad be able to count it as a dedicated transport? If you split a tactical squad in two the original squad no longer exists, but both resulting units may claim the transport and deploy in it. Sure, the WG is also part of whatever unit he joined, but likewise those combat squads can be part of unit consisting of one or more ICs joined to it and still get to use the transport. The rules on WG and their relationship to the units they join are practically nonexistant and open to debate.

If you can make a tactical squad cease to exist by splititng into combat sqiuads and either resulting unit can claim the transport, then making a WG unit disappear by splitting it up should result in amy original member being able to borrow the team tank.

Now, assuming you're right and if the squad no longer exists, and the WG from it somehow no longer count as being from that squad...and if that means the transport doesn't simply default to undedicated, we now fall back to 'who cares?'

Deploy next to it, mount up and move off. If the other guy goes first he can take a couple pot shots at the pups, but that's only if he's got the range and LOS to actually hit them on turn 1, and chances are he won't do enough damage to wreck your plans. And if you go first it doesn't make a lick of difference.

And that's assuming that the dedicated status works the way you say it does, you go second, AND you haven't got any spare HS slots.

But regardless of how the technicalities work out, I think it's fair to assume you actually got the main point I was making, right? 



> Second, the Longfang Sergeant doesn't have a Signum, otherwise that plan is scary


Bah, that's what I get for reading the SW and SM codices both at the same time, obscenely late at night. Must've got that particular wire crossed when I was writing up my review.

I'll cop to that being a mistake on my part. But meh, even without the signum it's still pretty fucking boss. 203 points for 7 missile attacks (and 2 bolter shells) that you can direct at 2 different targets.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Galahad said:


> But regardless of how the technicalities work out, I think it's fair to assume you actually got the main point I was making, right?


Yeah, I do.
My interpretation of how WG work is:

You subtract one model from the WG unit.
You add that model to the joined unit.
The WG model no longer has any link to the WG unit, he's a member of the new unit for all purposes, and belongs to their category (I don't think that troop WG can join a FA choice and count the unit (or even just themselves) as scoring, for example)

I believe that if you completely donate a WG unit, their KP is no longer available to be scored off, because at the start of the game, the unit doesn't even exist.

Given it's poorly defined in the rules, but that's my interpretation, and what I think is the fairest and most reasonable (and simple) way to play it.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Interesting Question.

I'd prefer bigger squads over smaller ones. Simply because I'd worry that Smaller squads wouldnt cause enough damage.

Having said that, SW seem to be able to pull off small squads...


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

My squad idea looks like this:

9 grey hunters
1 wolf guard
Rhino
GHs have melta, wolfen guy, flag.
Wolf guard has power fist and combi-melta.
243 points

I think the flag is well worth having. You are looking at ~30 attacks, some of them with a power fist/rending. You will probably get 5 or more rerolls out of the flag.

Options would include taking a combi-flamer and/or a power wep instead of the mark of wulfen - particularly since I'll probably be using a "counts as" army.

On the transport thing: I doubt you will actually be using up all your heavy support to be honest. Why not just take a heavy LR and then anyone can get in? Also, I'd tend to put blood claws in it rather than hunters.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Someguy said:


> On the transport thing: I doubt you will actually be using up all your heavy support to be honest. Why not just take a heavy LR and then anyone can get in? Also, I'd tend to put blood claws in it rather than hunters.


Yeah baby, Blood Claws are monsters when they charge.
And with a LRC, you've still got room in there for an IC


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## geenareeno (Jun 18, 2009)

You guys are probably done discussing this but i would, if possible, change between less or more squads depending on whether you're playing objectives or annihilation. more for objectives less for Annihilation.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I brought up the LR for blood claws, and yeah chances are you;ll have an HS slot or two open. I just thought the dedicated transport issue would be an interesting topic.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

geenareeno said:


> You guys are probably done discussing this but i would, if possible, change between less or more squads depending on whether you're playing objectives or annihilation. more for objectives less for Annihilation.


Conventionally, in just pick-up-and-play games, you have your army list, find an enemy, and then choose mission by rolling for it.
In organised games however, yeah, this is an option.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I've never played in a game where you get to customize your list based on the mission or opponent...almost feels like cheating just thinking about it lol

It was always my assumption that lists were generally best designed with a 'take all comers' mentality


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Galahad said:


> I've never played in a game where you get to customize your list based on the mission or opponent...almost feels like cheating just thinking about it lol
> 
> It was always my assumption that lists were generally best designed with a 'take all comers' mentality


Yes, but if you're playing a campaign for example, you'll know who you're fighting, and be able to make assumptions on their choices based upon your experience.
You won't know what they're taking in their list, but you can guess and optimise for their race's strengths and weaknesses.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Galahad said:


> I've never played in a game where you get to customize your list based on the mission or opponent...almost feels like cheating just thinking about it lol
> 
> It was always my assumption that lists were generally best designed with a 'take all comers' mentality


This is apparently very different in different gaming communities. Im totally with you here Galahad. Making TAC-lists makes for a _much_ more interesting and fun game for _both_ players


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## elkhantar (Nov 14, 2008)

Well, I always play with the same group of people, so I know which armies they carry to the table. The good thing is that we all have at least two different armies, so you can try to "guess" what each one will bring from very different possible armies and list builds (which can mean a solid win or loss) or to take a more conservative approach and go for an all comers.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

I think in campaigns its actually _better_ to tailor you lists. It gives the game a narrative feel about it, with the forces trying to capitalise on their intel. Of course, tailoring to a specific set of armies is different to tailoring to a specific list. This also has the advantage of allowing unorthodox units to have a surprise factor that makes them more usefull.

In pick-up games or one-offs, its far better to use an all-comer list, as it its fairer and also, gets you use to playing a specific army, increases your skill with them.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> I think in campaigns its actually _better_ to tailor you lists. It gives the game a narrative feel about it, with the forces trying to capitalise on their intel. Of course, tailoring to a specific set of armies is different to tailoring to a specific list. This also has the advantage of allowing unorthodox units to have a surprise factor that makes them more usefull.
> 
> In pick-up games or one-offs, its far better to use an all-comer list, as it its fairer and also, gets you use to playing a specific army, increases your skill with them.


Definitely, in a campaign you know who you're fighting, and the enemy 'general's' preferred tactics and units, and you build around that.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Just to bring it back to the topic of Grey Hunters...

You guys think the banner is worth it?

I mean, it's not very expensive, but that kind of thing can add up if you put it on every squad. The ability to reroll 1s for the duration of an assault phase is handy, but it's only once. Meanwhile only a few points more is the cost of an extra body or power weapon. It's a tough call.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Galahad said:


> Just to bring it back to the topic of Grey Hunters...
> 
> You guys think the banner is worth it?
> 
> I mean, it's not very expensive, but that kind of thing can add up if you put it on every squad. The ability to reroll 1s for the duration of an assault phase is handy, but it's only once. Meanwhile only a few points more is the cost of an extra body or power weapon. It's a tough call.


Well look at it this way.
Against any non-armour-ignoring attack in melee, it's going to allow you to almost halve your casualties.
It'll also help you do a bit more killing, which is always fun.

I think it's worthwhile for a big squad, but not for a small one.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

I thought it was only for rolls to hit?


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

It's absolutely any roll of 1 for the span of a single assault phase, which would include dangerous terrain tests for your assault move, a double-1 on an attached RP's psyk test to use his rune weapon, and any failed armor saves, hits or wounds resulting from 1s.

It's handy as hell, but only once. Bigger impact the more models there are and the more rolls being made.
The presence of an IC and/or a Mark of the Wulfen model should be contributing factors to the decision. Rerolling 1s includes the # of attacks for MotW, and obviously any 1 rerolled to wound has a chance to rend.

I think it's a good option, but not a no-brainer.


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## elkhantar (Nov 14, 2008)

I thought it was only for the to hit too, but if you tell me it's for every roll during an assault, then yes, I think it's really worth it.

Also, it's a no brainer when you don't want the extra body, such as when limited by the capacity of a transport.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Galahad said:


> It's absolutely any roll of 1 for the span of a single assault phase, which would include dangerous terrain tests for your assault move, a double-1 on an attached RP's psyk test to use his rune weapon, and any failed armor saves, hits or wounds resulting from 1s.
> 
> It's handy as hell, but only once. Bigger impact the more models there are and the more rolls being made.
> The presence of an IC and/or a Mark of the Wulfen model should be contributing factors to the decision. Rerolling 1s includes the # of attacks for MotW, and obviously any 1 rerolled to wound has a chance to rend.
> ...


That makes it a no-brainer points filler for me then. If I write a list and have 20 points, I'd definitely be chucking a few of them around :grin:


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I usually don;t have that many points left to fiddle with LOL

I mean, sure if you have extra points there's no reason why not, but I;vwe never been a fan of one-shot items. It just doesn't seem like something I would budget for or sacrifice a man or upgrade to make room for.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Neither would I. Normally I'm not a fan of one-shot weaposn either, but the 5pt combi-weapons on WG and the Wolf Standards are both things I don't mind paying for.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Galahad said:


> You guys think the banner is worth it?


The bigger the unit the more worth it he is, and yea adding ICs will defo make it even better. In a 10 man unit Id say he's a no-brainer, 30 attacks will on average equal 5 1s which you can reroll first to hit, and then to wound, and as far as Ive understood it even on your saves from the opponents swings.

Paying 10 pts for cutting your wounds suffered in CC by half is worth(every other failed save will be a 1) it alone in my book:grin:
This makes charging big mobs of Orks/Tyranids/Guards/whatnots a lot less dangerous!


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

My problem is, my lists usually run too tight to swing it without cutting something.
So what thing that can be used all the time is worth losing for a banner you use once?


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

If you have a MoW in the pack, a WG with PF and an IC, then you could probably drop a Power Weapon for the Standard without losing sleep. If your tight for points I wouldn't be worried about squeezing the standards im tbh, though swapping power weapons out for them could be an option, as I already said.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I suppose so. PW is really handy against MEq and TEq, but as the saves get worse its utility goes down, and if there's already a pw-ewuipped IC in the group it's not a bad trade I suppose.

I think I;ll keep the pw on the unaccompanied squads though


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## Sqwerlpunk (Mar 1, 2009)

I'd be sooner inclined to drop the MotW for the Standard...


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Sqwerlpunk said:


> I'd be sooner inclined to drop the MotW for the Standard...


I dunno, the sheer number of extra Attacks that the Wulfen marked model can throw out makes it extremely useful against pretty much everything bar high AV walkers because of Rending.


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## bishop5 (Jan 28, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> I dunno, the sheer number of extra Attacks that the Wulfen marked model can throw out makes it extremely useful against pretty much everything bar high AV walkers because of Rending.


Surely you can still rip through most walkers with 13 AP (4 + D6 + D3)? Which still makes it pretty useful. Not sure on the percentages, however.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I've done the math on MotW, because of the higher number of attacks, it's actually *better* than the PW against pretty much everything but terminators.

The higher the toughness and/or lower the same goes the better it preforms.

Based on 4 attacks average vs 2 pw attacks.
You could roll more but you could roll less. 4 is the straight numerical average and the best number to base the maths off of.

I'll always keep the motw.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

The power wep will usually have 3 attacks, thanks to counter attack and charging. Not many combats will last multiple rounds.

The wulfen guy gets the same benefit of course, but it makes less difference to him since he's already got a ton of attacks.

The other thing to beware of with the power wep is that you will be causing a whole load of wounds with your ordinary guys. You can expect your opponent to stack power wep wounds on one guy and negate a lot of their effect. Also, you will probably just beat the kind of stuff power weps work against anyway, without needing it.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I was calculating with base # of attacks for simplicity sake, adding the charge tilts things very slightly for the PW against MeQs and termies (went from 5% behind to 5% ahead, still not in the realm of whole wounds, still roughly the same effectiveness), but it still holds that against higher T or lower Sv the MoTW is noticeably better.

The more base attacks a model has (+ccw) the less effective motw is in general, particularly against PWs.

MotW is pretty much only worth it on GH. In WG it's more expensive and less effective than the PW, on ICs and Thunderwolves it's laughable.

Edit: Since the subject of men/squads was sorted early on and it;s veolved into a loadout discussion I changed the title to reflect this.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

To those doubting MoTW, listen to Galahad, it is a necessity in every grey hunter squad (I average 5-6 attacks with the model (A roll of a 4 on D6, with + 1, + 1 for the charge bonus)) and again in every game so far I have averaged 2 pw wounds with another 2-3 attacks wounding(Against T4 and T3 models).

I do not take a power weapon in each squad, I usually take a PF(I take on in every squad since they cannot voluntarily fall back against high toughness models), and I have yet to see my grey hunters get wiped out, even against high Initiative models, such as demons and dark eldar.

In short, I always take a MoTW in my grey hunters, and especially in my Sky Claws, D6 + 3 on the charge? Yes please.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I'm really not a fan of skyclaws, at all. I forgot they could have motW (weird since othe rbloodclaw units can't)

When you say you take a fist, are you taking the A1 25 point fist that GH can buy, or are you talking about buying a WG with a A2 fist (for 23 points total, after subtracting the cost of a GH from the cost of the WG) Even though it means giving up the free meltagun, I'd still sooner take a cheap, doubly-effective WG fist than a GH one.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

When I look at a Grey Hunter Pack, I don't start with a basic pack and throw upgrades in. I started with a tooled out pack and work backwards, dropping things that won't be needed to save points. For me, a tooled out Grey Hunter Pack would be:

Wolf Guard w/ Powerfist and Combi-Flamer
Grey Hunter w/ Power Weapon
Grey Hunter w/ MotW
Grey Hunter w/ Meltagun
Grey Hunter w/ Wolf Standard
5x Grey Hunters
Rhino
(Alternatively, swap Meltagun for a Flamer and the Comb-Flamer for Combi-Melta)

The working Backwards bit:

Say for example, I want 3 packs, one will have a Rune Priest and one will have a Wolf Priest. Instantly I have to drop a Grey Hunter from two packs. Now the Wolf Priest is going to be my assualt pack, so I'll keep all the special weapons in. The Wolf Standard isn't worth it as much when I have Preffered Enemy anyway, so I can drop it. The Rune Priests unit won't want to be charging headfirst into combat, so I can drop the Power Weapon, as the Rune Priest effectively has one. The last pack remains at full strength to ensure that it can still have a bite. When I work out the rest of my list, say I'm 20 points over. I can just drop the Wolf Standards and still have effective units. If I was 10points under I might give the Wolf Priests pack the Standard, so that they can re-roll other 1's.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Skoll, that's probably how I'd do it too.

Galahad, I think you've made the case for wulfen over power weps. It's better against most opponents and gives useful anti-MC power. It's a nice upgrade.

I'm unsure if either is really needed though. You have the power fist on the wolf guard and tons of attacks for things with good saves, and the tons of attacks work pretty well on things with bad saves too. If you have 4 squads of hunters then you could be looking at a saving or 60 or 120 points here, which is pretty significant.


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## Taggerung (Jun 5, 2008)

Galahad said:


> I'm really not a fan of skyclaws, at all. I forgot they could have motW (weird since othe rbloodclaw units can't)
> 
> When you say you take a fist, are you taking the A1 25 point fist that GH can buy, or are you talking about buying a WG with a A2 fist (for 23 points total, after subtracting the cost of a GH from the cost of the WG) Even though it means giving up the free meltagun, I'd still sooner take a cheap, doubly-effective WG fist than a GH one.


I take them in my GH squads as well, I don't actually take WG with my greyhunters. They never need them as they are really quite solid on their own. I also like having 2 meltas, or 2 flamers in a squad. 

As for Skyclaws...give them a wolf priest, a PF, MoTW, and they are and extremely effective assault unit. I however was a huge fan of assault marines in C:SM, so I of course like to use them here. Ya, they are easier to hit, but against most opponents they are going at the same time or first, so they are getting off their 40+ attacks anyways, despite being hit easier.


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