# Alternate Thousand Sons rules



## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Ok, first off a disclaimer. I did not come up with these rules myself, a friend in one of my local clubs did. And they have not, I repeat, NOT been tested out in any way, shape, or form. Now that being said, check this shit out. 



> Codex 1ksons
> 
> By Terry.
> 
> ...


Personally, I love the thought behind these rules. Making the Sons more magic oriented and such, leaving some limitations that they have now in there while addressing weaknesses in the list and such. Hopefully, someone in my group will be willing to try these out with me


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## Anphicar (Dec 31, 2006)

Those are pretty sweet!


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

Now it's been a while since I saw the last load of Tzeentch's followers' rules, but there's one very very large problem with what you've done. Of all those changes, you have made nothing worse, and nearly everything better. Not only that, but the changes range from slightly better to inestimably better. For the Thousand Sons to be so bad that these changes would bring them in line with the average potency of 40K armies would require that they previously be so appalingly bad as to be completely and utterly unplayable. As I know this is not the case, it seems fairly clear you've gone over the top here.


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

I agree that the rules are a bit over the top. Basically as I started reading it, I see current weaknesses being filled in with putty and smoothed over and thats it. I do like the shift towards more magic, but I also see the Sons as still very playable and I've played them in many different forms (Changewing terminator army, mostly demons, rubric heavy, etc..)


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Way to read the entire post. As I said, I didn't write them. And they have been posted for discussion sake and the enjoyment to be had therin. I will be the first to say that they need serious testing and more than likely a fair bit of down tuning. Nevertheless, they are still cool and my feelings that they alter the way the Sons play toward a more magically oriented style of play still stands.


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## Wrath of Khaine (Dec 29, 2006)

I think the current rules are still pretty bland. Those have some large benefits, I agree, with barely any weaknesses.

On the other hand, there are some great ideas in there that just need some tweaking. Warp Portals are a cool idea, but should be Sorcerous Wargear or a Psychic Power instead. The Rift Sword sounds like a great item, but the rules laid down aren't what I was looking for, same goes for the Tome of Forbidden Lore. I really like the Eye of Tzeentch power and they should have more like it, ala eldar powers.

A huge fragment missing from the Thousands Sons is their pre-heresy abilities. The sorcerers alive today were alive back then, and therefore should have access to some powers that also fight chaos, as Tzeentch still sometimes does. Maybe a power to prevent demons from entering the board for a turn, like a reserve-forcing mind war. Farseeing abilities, as many had. Maybe more gear related to using the warp for clandestine or indirect harm means. I dislike the slow and purposeful crap. They should have something akin to Wraithsight or that ability exactly, which only an accompanied sorcerer with a Waystone wargear item can remove.

I'm going to play around my own set and post em. I've got the itch now. I think even Uber would respect the Wraithsight concept.

Khaine


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

I don't know, I honestly think the current rules are fine. The simple change to 4th Edition rules actually fixes most of the issues with the Thousand Sons. I've lost once with my Thousand Sons army out of fifteen games or so with them. I'm only an average tactician, and no one considers my army cheesy. So clearly, the Thousand Sons aren't lacking. They're hard to play for Space Marines. They don't need to be brought to the point where any moron can play them well-- they just need some more useful equipment for their sorcerers. The stuff in the Book of Tzeentch is, for the most part, pretty useless.


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## Wrath of Khaine (Dec 29, 2006)

*My Thousand Sons.*

I edited this post with the updated list work I've done. It's still hugely a rough draft, but give me your opinions still. Mine and Horus' chatter after this will probably make no sense because of the changes.

The Thousand Sons

The Mark of Tzeentch
All Thousand Sons chaos space marine models are +10pts and come with the Mark of Tzeentch, except the Obliterator Cult and Raptor Cult. All models with the Mark of Tzeentch are Fearless, may not take veteran skills, and automatically pass any psychic test they are required to take

Units of Tzeentch
Empyreal: Millenia ago, the greatest librarian of the Thousand Sons, Ahriman, cast a baleful spell to remove the ability for chaos taint in his legion. The spell worked, in a way, obliterating the physical bodies of the most of his legion, leaving the their warp-spirits trapped inside their armor. They now exist as mindless marionettes, made effective through sorcery and a chaotic link to the material universe. At the start of their turn, roll a D6 for each Empyreal unit that does not include a friendly sorcerer. On a roll of a 1, the Empyreal unit is inactive until the end of their turn. Inactive models may not move, shoot, assault, or attack in close combat, and are hit automatically in close combat.

All models with the Sorcerer ability are no longer Empyreal. All Empyreal models gain Daemonic Essence and Slow and Purposeful. They are also unaffected by the Gift of Chaos and Mass Mutation powers. Upgrading models to Aspiring Champions grants them the Sorcerer ability. Empyreal models may never have the Sorcerer ability.

Any unit consisting of 9 models counts as Favored. A Favored unit allowed Aspiring Champions may upgrade one model to Aspiring Champion for free. Daemon Packs or Daemonic Beasts units of 9 models models are also Favored and add +1 to their summoning roll.

Weaponry of Tzeentch
Apart from Sorcerers, all Mark of Tzeentch models must use bolters as their standard weaponry and cannot upgrade unless upgraded to Terminators.
Any unit may be upgraded to Terminators for +18pts per model(including sorcerers). They replace their normal weaponry with power weapons & combi-bolters and only a sorcerer may further upgrade his weaponry. Any unit upgraded to Terminators count as an Elite choice.

Vehicles
All vehicles must be dedicated to Tzeentch at +15 pts and gain the Coruscating Flame ability.
Coruscating Flame: Any model attacking the vehicle in close combat takes a Str D6, AP4 hit before resolving it’s attacks.

The Thousand Sons Army List
HQ
Chaos Lord/Daemon Prince: Must be upgraded to Sorcerer Lord.
Chaos Lieutenant: Must be upgraded to Sorcerer.
Greater Daemon: May only take Lord of Change

Elite
Chosen: You may only purchase half of the allowed Chosen models for your point total.
Every third chosen is a Sorcerer, and all chosen without the Sorcerer ability are Empyreal.
Possessed Chaos Space Marines: This unit may not be chosen.
Obliterator Cult: This unit may not be chosen.

Troop
Chaos Space Marines: All models are Empyreal. Any model upgraded to Aspiring Champion is instead a Sorcerer.
Daemon Packs: Only Horrors may be chosen.
Nurglings: This unit may not be chosen.

Fast Attack
Chaos Raptors: This unit may not be chosen.
Chaos Marine Bikers: This unit may not be chosen.
Daemonic Beasts: Only Screamers may be chosen.

Heavy Support
Chaos Havocs: No changes.
Chaos Predator: No changes.
Chaos Dreadnought: Thousand Sons dreadnoughts are Empyreal, yet have a weak Keystone integrated into their sarcophagi. They do not gain(or suffer from) any abilites associated with being Empyreal, except that they do not suffer from Fire Frenzy.
A chaos dreadnought can be upgraded to Sorcerous for 20 pts. It is equipped with an additional Dreadnought close combat weapon incorporating a twin-linked bolter, giving it +1 attack. A Sorcerous Dreadnought is no longer Empyreal and may not replace its weapons, yet may take normal vehicle upgrades and gifts for a Chaos Dreadnought and a single Major Psychic Power. It once again suffers from Fire Frenzy. It may purchase a Talisman of Tzeentch OR a Warp Focus for the normal price. For Psychic Power purposes, count its Ld as a 10.
Chaos Land Raider: No changes.
Chaos Defiler: No changes.


Wargear
Thousand Sons may use the main armory in addition to the below items/powers. They may not purchase Familiars or Warp Talismans.
Bedlam Staff: No changes.
Blasted Standard: No changes.
Book of Forbidden Lore Any model removed from the game by the model with this item is counted as double its Victory Points. 15pts.(One per army)
Dimensional Anchor: A sorcerer attaches special warp foci to the armor of his squad to anchor their spirits to the physical world. Any Empyreal models with Dimensional Anchors always count as rolling 6’s on difficult terrain tests for Slow and Purposeful. 5pts +1 per Empyreal model. (i.e. Aspiring Champion and 4 Empyreal marines is 13pts).
Disc of Tzeentch: No changes.
Inferno Bolts: No changes.
Keystone: Any Empyreal unit within 12” automatically passes Empyreal rolls. 6pts
Riftweaver: Counts as a great weapon. May be used in the shooting phase with the below profile. It is an Assault 1 weapon with a range of 6”, always wounds on a 2+, has an AP of 2, and against vehicles causes a Crew Shaken on a 3-4 and a Crew Stunned on a 5-6.
Talisman of Tzeentch: As normal, except also counts as a familiar. 9pts.
Thrall Wizard: No changes.
Warp Blade: No changes.

Psychic Powers
Minor
Minor Powers are now chosen and purchased as wargear for 10pts.
Pink Fire of Tzeentch
Psychic Duel
Weaver of Fates
Withering Gaze

Major
Major powers are chosen as before.
Bolt of Change: No changes.
Eye of Tzeentch: No changes.
Fear of the Darkness: As listed in Codex: Space Marines. 15pts.
Incorporeality: This power is used in the movement phase instead of moving. The model and any unit it has joined becomes incorporeal. In game terms, the unit cannot move, shoot or assault, yet cannot be targeted(even indirectly) or assaulted during the duration. The model cannot use this power while in assault, nor use this power on a unit in assault.
The power lasts until the start of the models next movement phase. Any models effected by Incorporeality at the end of the game count as being destroyed for victory point purposes. (i.e. Still under the effect of the power.) 10pts.
Interdiction: Long ago, the Thousand Sons perfected this power to prevent daemons from materializing on the battlefield. Now, long past their fall, they continue to use it in the name of Tzeentch, sending back minions of the warp that wish to alter Tzeentch’s plans. It’s greatest use is against the gibbering hordes of Nurgle. This power may be used once a turn, when an opponent tries to summon a daemon unit or a greater daemon. Both players roll a D6, adding the Leadership of the model casting and the Leadership of the opposing unit/model to the roll. If the Sorcerer wins, the unit/model automatically fails to be summoned this turn. If the sorcerer ties the opposing total, the enemy unit/model is at a –1 to its summoning roll(if a roll is made). The rolls are made before a unit/model rolls for its summoning but after it attempts to be summoned. 
A unit/model the sorcerer failed to prevent from summoning may never have Interdiction used on it again that game. 15pts.
(i.e. if the unit/model still failed its summoning roll after the power failed to stop them.)
Reckoning of Tzeentch(as minor power of same name): 20pts.
Sins of the Grandfather: The model using this power and any single unit he is part of during the use of this power, may reroll all failed to hit and to wound rolls in close combat against models with the Mark of Nurgle. This power lasts until the end of the turn. 20pts.
Twisting Path: No changes.

I really like the new power ideas I had. I wanted them to have a fat assortment.

Khaine


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

The upgrades to sorcerers for the HQ units are redundant, as the Mark of Tzeentch includes the upgrade. 

Slow and Purposeful models strike at Initiative 4. I'd eliminate the Strike at I3 on the Dimensional Anchor. Realistically, it should be more like 3 or even 5 points per model-- Slow and Purposeful is the balancing factor for Daemonic Essence. While you attack normally in close combat, you don't get a charging bonus for being Slow and Purposeful. 

Obliterators may be able to shift their forms, but it eliminates a weakness of the Thousand Sons by allowing them in the army list. Besides, the Thousand Sons have not been given the Obliterator virus-- realistically, Obliterators should be a 0-1 choice for Black Legion armies and 0-3 for Iron Warriors, and unavailable to anyone else. Raptors have no reason to be present either, for more or less the same reason-- it's eliminating a major weakness of the army without replacing a weakness elsewhere. Same logic with the bikers... I don't think Rubric Marines really have the reflexes to handle a Space Marine bike anyway. 

Possessed are actually an important part of a Thousand Sons army. They're expensive per model, but you can have flying Possessed and have each and every one of those bastards have Wind of Chaos. It's a powerful option, and the points cost of having to use possessed to have jump packers makes up for the elimination of the speed weakness of the army overall.

The Book of Forbidden Lore should be a 1 per army item, and should be at LEAST doubled in cost, if not more. Doubling a KIA enemy unit's victory points is enough to win you a lot of games. 

The Riftweaver should be a daemon weapon, I think. It's more powerful than the Kai Gun, and cheaper to boot.


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## Wrath of Khaine (Dec 29, 2006)

I can see the lack of Obliterators, Raptors, and Bikes. I wasn't going to put them there originally but did for the hell of it. If I enacted this list, I would most likely remove them as they can't have Marks of Tzeentch and I dislike that.

The upgrades for the HQs were a Must in my opinion as its an additional point cost to rationlize them being said sorceror lords. The Mark pretty much would only grant them Fearless.

Even though it doesnt mention the fact in the Rulebook, the most recent Chaos Codex still counts Slow and Purposeful as having I1. I settled with it being specifically for the Thousand Sons. I also originally planned the Anchor to be 3pts a model, but still think 2 isn't over the top. Maybe mentioned in an FAQ?

On the other wargear. The book should definitely be one per army, good call. Maybe a slight points increase, but it only allows double the points per model the sorcerer with it kills, not units. I can see it getting out of control on a murder-city lord though, so maybe a 5pt boost for starters.
I actually erased something on the Riftweaver that was supposed to stay there, which was a 6" range on the staff and can't be used in assault on the same turn it was fired. Probably also add that the model cannot pick any other weapons if the staff is purchased. No daemon weapon though, as multiple sorcerers with them were in my mind. I wouldn't say it is more powerful that the Kai Gun. That has double the range and double the killing potential on 80% of the games units. It's only stronger on vehicles and large creatures. I would probably drop the staff to only glancing vehicles.

I would absolutely never allow possessed though. It's the exact opposite of what the Rubric stands for and seems unfluffy to the extreme. They shouldn't be allowed to have Possessed as nearly all of their Legion is now dust, save the surviving powerful sorcerers. That's my stance on that. Might as well give em Plaguebearers..

I also want to add a psychic power to stop daemons from being summoned and maybe even a slightly bended Imperial power. Also one specifically against Nurgle followers.

Khaine


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

The 4th Edition rulebook was printed after the current Chaos Space Marine codex, so it would take precedence, thus you would use Slow and Purposeful as presented there.


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## Wrath of Khaine (Dec 29, 2006)

Well apparently that would mean they only get the +1 attack.

Khaine


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

For easier reading, try separating the individual wargear and powers. Those sections are hard to read. Anyhow:


When I compare the two different ideas here, I have to admit that I prefer the first one simply due to the fact that it drastically changes their playstyle from how it is now. The main differences I see in what you have done is add a further weakness to the Rubrics and some more wargear and spells. While that is cool, I am one of the many who think that the Thousand Sons are severely broken and need more than that to 'fix' them.

Don't get me wrong, you have definitely put some good effort into this for sure. I love the Dimensional Anchor for sure and I think that things like it (which would help to make up for the armies defincencies) is what is needed.


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

If they're really as bad as you say they are, little changes like the ones shown here so far won't eve change that. I still think they're far from weak, unless your standard is the Chaos Codex proper, which as we all know is probably the most powerful codex available right now.

If we're all in agreement that the Dustboys need fixing, then those who actually use the army should come up with a shortlist of the significant issues facing the army for everyone to discuss. It's worked for me in the past.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

uberschveinen said:


> If we're all in agreement that the Dustboys need fixing, then those who actually use the army should come up with a shortlist of the significant issues facing the army for everyone to discuss. It's worked for me in the past.


Sounds like a plan to me. So the problems I have with the list:

Very expensive 
Horrible Movement
Severe lack of high strength weaponry
Psychic powers blow, especially when compared to SM's or Eldar

Things I like

2 wounds
Stationary for shooting


In my honest and personal opinion it is the cost of the army combined with the severe (did I mention severe) lack of high strength weapons that hurt the Sons the most. Yes, getting 2 wound Marines is very nice but the drawbacks that come with it are a bit much to me. I would like to see the cost of the Rubric be a bit less on Rubrics (not sorcerers though, 10pts is fine for them I think) or perhaps the drawbacks of the Rubric lessened, be it through better movement or by at least being able to fire Special Weapons along with bolters. I agree that Heavy Weapons in the Rubric squads would be too much combined with being stationary for firing.

The lack of high strength weapons could easily be countered with specials in the squads and maybe access to Havocs. After all, they can fire a bolter, why not any other gun? Or perhaps give us back Flames of Tzeentch. Personally, I would like to see the powers beefed up and new, useful ones put in (which is kinda why I liked the first set of alt rules I posted so much).

What it boils down to for me is the fact that for the 2 wounds they get through the Rubric, the drawbacks go too far in the attempt to balance the army out, making them too many points for what they can actually do. 

There, that seems like a good place to start. More will come from this discussion.


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## Viscount Vash (Jan 3, 2007)

I agree with Wraithlord,
I love my Sons and want to do more Troops but end up using vehicles to get AP weapons.With the high points cost you don't get many squads to paint.
Enemy Armour just laughs at me on the whole.
I don't mind standing still for heavy weapons.
The psychics will catch up when the Codex is redone (If the thing about seperate Codexs for the Powers is true even more so).


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

World Eaters have just as much problem finding high str, low ap weapons (unless its a plasma pistol) as the Thousand Sons do, but you can add them in there the same ways... Defilers, Bolts of Change, Powerfists (I believe Tzeentch champs can have them off memory), Predators, LR's, Dreads, Demon Princes, GD's, Possessed (they can rend I believe), etc....


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

I don't have any trouble with tanks. People actually are nervous about the kind of anti-tank fire I can put out with my Thousand Sons. Three possessed dreadnoughts are harder to put down than you might think, and even though it's quite simple to shoot the Rhinos instead, people have yet to do that-- they always go for the dreadnoughts, and by the time they've dealt with one or two of them, the Rhinos have been unloaded and the Dreadnoughts really aren't needed anymore. Power fists on my champions can handle things from there.


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

If we're busy trying to fix the Thousand Sons, honestly, there's a very easy way to do it. You had one unit, and it's a unit that GW already made.

Chosen of Ahriman.

Done. This gives the army another HQ choice, which you can have three of. It gives them SERIOUS mobility all of a sudden, and 3 more psykers to unleash Bolts of Change, which is all the anti-tank you ever need, especially because with them, range means nothing.

Seriously, I play 1ksons. I love them as is. They're SOLID. You put a champion in each squad, give them Bolt of Change... and it's no different (shorter range, but not much as an assault weapon) than having a Marine squad with a single lascannon as your anti-tank.

Of course, if you really want more firepower, you can do what I ended up doing... making the army Black Legion to get some Emperor's Children Havocs on the board.


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

I love the Chosen of Ahriman, but they arent official according to that WD article they were in


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## Xabre (Dec 20, 2006)

You're right. They're NOT official.


but compared to the original post and the later options? They're far more official, no?


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

The fact that I won an RTT with a Thousand Sons army should be sufficient proof that they don't need a damned bit of help. It wasn't even close. My score was something like 82 battle points, and the next closest was 73 battle points. Boo-yah.


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

would you post your list, Son of Horus? At least then people can get an idea of how to build a good list with them. I have a couple old ones that did well, but i'd love to see someone elses.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

It's up in the Army Lists section, under "Ashes to Ashes, All is Dust"


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

Very solid list Son of Horus...

This is one off memory that I did a long time ago that did pretty well and won much more than it lost...

Sorcerer Lord
Terminator Armor
Combi-bolter
Dark Blade
Eye of Tzeentch
Bolt of Change

9 Possessed of Tzeentch
Demonic Talons

3 X 9 Thousand Sons
Aspiring Champion
BP/Powerfist
Bolt of Change

2 X 9 Flamers

2 Predators
Twin Lascannons
Lascannon Sponsons

57 Models 
2000 points exactly


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## Wrath of Khaine (Dec 29, 2006)

I don't think the RAW list is insufficient, I just think it strays from their fluff a little hard in areas. Why the hell would thousand sons use possessed? Most players use them as mower units, but they shouldn't even be allowed per fluff. I know story doesn't effect everything rule-wise, but that's a slap in the face to their whole ethos, and why they are Dust in the first place.

Their dreads should definitely be immune to blood rage, and most units should have a leadership negative fighting them as 90% of them don't speak/groin/show emotion, like high elf phoenix guard(?).

GW is close to what they should be, but they need some changes. I don't think anyone, shorn of Magnus himself, should be able to take daemonic upgrades, besides weapons. Ahriman and his brethren especially, who are usually what is going to battle. Maybe even daemon-friendly Magnus force and a Son-friendly Ahriman force, caked in psykers and elite magical wargear. Hell, maybe even a 0-1 small squad(maybe chosen) of non-Dust marines that aren't sorcerers, as not all of them turned to dust, just a majority.

I think most of the other Legions fit their bill pretty damn well, with the sons being close but not quite.

-Khaine-

My two cents. 
-Khaine-


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

I would like their rules to lean towards more of a psychic powers reliance, not to mention having said powers suitably powerful as befits some of the most powerful psykers in the galaxy.


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

Wrath of Khaine said:


> I don't think the RAW list is insufficient, I just think it strays from their fluff a little hard in areas. Why the hell would thousand sons use possessed? Most players use them as mower units, but they shouldn't even be allowed per fluff. I know story doesn't effect everything rule-wise, but that's a slap in the face to their whole ethos, and why they are Dust in the first place.


How would possessed units NOT be in the fluff for a Tzeentch army? Tzeentch is the changer of ways, and so a bunch of mutated marines would not fit the fluff? I'll have to disagree with that assessment. Tzeentch has more at his disposal than just his mindless automatons. There are Chosen, there are Sorcerers, and there are Possessed or mutated (changed!) that fit in just as well. My Possessed in fact were modelled as loyalist marines horribly mutated that ended up with the "gift".

The only changes I would care to see in an updated list are a few more psychics or sorcerous options. Other than that, it is as fluff driven as any of the other Cult lists.


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

Ah, dude? Do you know anything about the Thousand Sons at all?

Not to say you don't have a point, but the main problem is _it simply isn't possible_. As a result of not actually having a physical form, these warriors have a very hard time of recieving mutations, given that there's _nothing to mutate_.

Besides, Tzeench is subtle, cunning, and above all always in control. The precise opposite of Possessed.


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

Ok, I'm not talking about mutated rubrics. You missed the point entirely. As I stated earlier, not everything in a Thousand Sons army is Rubric. Chosen are not Rubric marines, Possessed are not Rubric marines. Tzeentch has more resources than just the Rubric marines at his disposal as I stated. And yes, Tzeentch is always in control and if you read the fluff for the Possessed, the actual Chaos Marine that is possessed is always in control of the symbiotic relationship, though at times it can become more difficult. But if you allow yourself to think outside the box, you can come up with other ways that the Possessed manifest itself as well...


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## Wrath of Khaine (Dec 29, 2006)

Per the old story of Ahriman's spell, the entire legion, save the more powerful sorcerers turned to dust. That would leave select few sorcerers to become possessed, and I doubt any of them would actually give in to a symbiotic possession besides Magnus himself, because he went nuts.
There just aren't the bodies to become possessed. A millenia old sorcerer of forbidden lore would doubtfully turn over his many years of knowledge and arts to become a gibbering assault mutant..

Khaine


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

I understand that, and as i put above, my Possessed that I used for my army list were not of the legion, but were loyalists that the sorcerers had given the "gift" too and now were bound to fight for their patron sorcerer.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

I have to agree with blkdymnd here. Possessed would be quite possible now as in 10000 years the legion would have suffered casualties in battle and had to replenish its losses with new marines. Said marines would certainly NOT be under the Rubric as 1) Ahriman was banished from the legion and 2) Magnus would not allow such a spell to be cast again.

So yes, there would most certainly be Possessed, Chosen, NON-RUBRIC marines, etc.


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## Wrath of Khaine (Dec 29, 2006)

I'm saying that the spell was cast because the legion DID NOT want daemonic mutation in their midst. To my knowledge, only Magnus was against it as he led the change to Tzeentch. And nowhere I remember does it show ihm definitely being a daemon primarch, but I could be wrong.

It just doesn't make sense, since the entirety of the army list is about those surviving sorcerers under Ahriman controlling the spirit constructs into eternity. IT DOESN'T FIT.

You might as well allow Fallen Angels in a Dark Angel force... The whole army idea was about a legion turned chaos that DID NOT, again DID NOT want daemonic mutation in their men. Why alot it wholesale by allowing daemons to infest them?

Khaine


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> I'm saying that the spell was cast because the legion DID NOT want daemonic mutation in their midst. To my knowledge, only Magnus was against it as he led the change to Tzeentch. And nowhere I remember does it show ihm definitely being a daemon primarch, but I could be wrong.


Lots can change in ten thousand years 

In any case, I like the availability of said units (even if said units are too damn expensive) as it allows more variety to the list. Otherwise it would end up being that all Tson lists are exactly the same with no option to be otherwsie, similar to the way Necrons are. Are they fluffy? Depends on your own interpretation of the fluff in the end.


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

ok, in an attempt to try not to work Khaine up to the boiling point once again...

Yes, there are two basic types of troops in the Thousand Sons Legion. Sorcerers and Rubric Marines. They made the Rubric Marines so that their Legion would not succumb to the massive mutations that Magnus was gifting everyone with. 

There are demonic presences within the Thousand Sons though, as they do have Demon Princes (Magnus himself being one of them), they use actual demons as well (flamers, horrors, screamers), and they use demonic weapons, Staff of Bedlam and the Warp Blade. 

They do not want mutation to infest THEIR Legion. There is no reason why my background of loyalists being mutated and turned by the Sorcerers would be within the realm of possibility or even recruitment of Chaos Marines to be possessed or mutated to help the Legion without sacrificing thier own and using other expendable resources. It definatley fits the fluff of Chaos itself, and doesn't detract from the Thousand Sons fluff at all. 

Saying that the above isn't possible would be the same as saying that NOT ONE Tzeentchian Sorcerer could use the Gift of Chaos psychic power because it mutates its subject and turns it to the possession of the Sorcerer. It would also mean that same Sorcerer (even though both powers specifically state use by Sorcerers) could not use the Mass Mutation power either as it grants demonic abilities to its subjects. Oh, and the Mass Mutation power states that who the Sorcerer has to be attached to, and one of those choices is Possessed Marines...


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## Wrath of Khaine (Dec 29, 2006)

First.. Forums don't get me worked up. I use caps just for emphasis when I feel they are needed, but I've long past the ages needed to be worked up by internet chat. And blkdymnd, calling peoples names out in posts for reasons you believe are accurate isn't polite, but just unknowingly rude.

My complaint toward the Sons stems from third edition becoming this Daemons?Ok! thing that never was. This is all new and takes away from their original fluff, which everyone knows GW tends to not care about but really makes an army sing.
I very much understand your loyalist idea and the 10,000 years ago blurb, but with True thousand sons it doesn't make much sense. I can see them summoning daemons through their worship of Tzeentch, but not their own men. I can't see a sorcerer allowing himself to be possessed by a greater daemon either. What the new book says is the reason people want revisions in the first place. It adds things that shouldn't be there and takes away from other useful things from last edition.


Khaine


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

I've looked at the possessed in a couple ways-- sorcerers that have screwed up their spells (they ARE psykers, after all) and have ended up possessed, or empty suits of armor that have had daemons bound to them. It fits the fluff, and it doesn't leave you wondering why they might allow themselves to be possessed. In 10,000 years though... things certainly have changed, and the Thousand Sons are fully and truly Chaos Space Marines. There are devotees amongst their ranks who WOULD take a horror within them as an act of devotion to Tzeentch.


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

The sorcerers aren't stupid enough, and the normal Marines have as muhc free will as a Necron Warrior or thereabouts, so I'd hardly call that plausible. Besides, there aren't enough sorcerers to fill out the implied numbers of possessed, even if every single of of them became as such.


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