# Do the Thousand Sons even know?



## LongfangFenrika93 (Jan 22, 2012)

After reading 'A Thousand Sons' for at least the fourth consecutive time, skimming through Lexicanum and the Wikia pages, as well as rereading 'Prospero Burns' for the second time, I can't figure out why the Thousand Sons fought under Horus after the Fall of Prospero, and then continued to fight, on occasion, for Abaddon in the millennia after. 

My point is, how the hell did they not know that Horus had tricked Russ into wiping them out, rather than bringing them peacefully back to Terra. Magnus was, after the Emperor, the greatest Pysker in the Galaxy. His sons, Ahriman and the like, sifted through the future (I know they were blind prior to the Fall, but in the immediate aftermath?) with their powers. 

It is stated in the Wikia (I know its not entirely accurate 100% of the time, but I'm going to go with it), that Ahriman cast the Rubric immediately after fleeing Prospero and landing on the Planet of the Sorcerers. The Rubric swelled his and his already powerful fellow Legionaries into even grander Psyker's, but reducing the weaker Marines to automaton husks. Yet, the Thousand Sons still fought on Terra with Horus. 

I just find it hard to believe, that the Thousand Sons (and Magnus if he gives a shit) didn't ultimately find out that the nature of their fall and casting as traitors was due to Horus' manipulations. And if they do in fact know that Horus was the one who manipulated him, why still fight the Imperium? The Thousand Sons were described as the most loyal of the Legions, I would think that their bitterness would be directed at their 'fellow' traitors.

Opinions and discussion would be great. If there is indeed fluff or canon showing that they do know of this,then could someone point me in the right direction plz. k:


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## Shattertheirsky (May 26, 2012)

Because it would kind of suck game and fluffwise to have a chapter that was on NOBODIES side, you'd literally have to create the 'Thousand Sons' race of models, no bad thing, but GW cant be arsed so the thousand sons just roll with it, poorly justified with some form of 'the emperor betrayed us a teeny bit more....'


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## Lord Commander Solus (Jul 26, 2012)

I've never understood either why the Thousand Sons, the most loyal of legions, still fights for Chaos after their deportation to the Planet of Sorcerers. Before that it was just a silly mistake on Magnus' part and a big misunderstanding. Suddenly they're the avenging angels of Tzeentch? Erm, re-wind please?


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

I think that Magnus was held hostage byTzeentch to some degree; if he rebelled too much to Horus' plans Tzeentch would mutate the survivors and he would lose everything (and Thousand Sons proved he couldn't condemn his sons).

Plus after the Rubric even his sons futures were taken out of his hands and so he had lost everything to his arrogance.

In terms of the 40k universe, I think Ahriman is on no-ones side; he aids whomever will further his goals; I think its in 'Atlas Infernal' Czernak notes Ahriman is consumed with the acquisition of knowledge and nothing else.


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## LongfangFenrika93 (Jan 22, 2012)

I actually think Chapters and Space Marines forces that are on nobodies side are the most interesting haha.


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## LongfangFenrika93 (Jan 22, 2012)

> Erm, re-wind please?


Its crazy. I think there must be more novels and fluff on the way to discern this surely. A huge leap. 



> I think that Magnus was held hostage by Tzeentch to some degree; if he rebelled too much to Horus' plans Tzeentch would mutate the survivors and he would lose everything (and Thousand Sons proved he couldn't condemn his sons).


Again I don't really get it. The Chaos powers, to my knowledge, rarely acted in unison. I can't imagine the Chaos God of Scheme-y shit Tzeentch fretting too much about Magnus rebelling against Horus, I mean after Horus finally turned traitor it was anyone's game because the dice had already been rolled. The entire Galaxy was at war, a 'loyal to noone' Thousand Sons Legion consisting of a few thousand Marines thrown into the mix just spices things up a bit. 

And I'm sure that Ahriman cured that mutation, or was it just a farce? Was the Rubric even real?


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## Lord Commander Solus (Jul 26, 2012)

LongfangFenrika93 said:


> And I'm sure that Ahriman cured that mutation, or was it just a farce? Was the Rubric even real?


He cured it but turned most of the Legion to dust. If Magnus had just got of his arse to help they'd have been fine, but he was too preoccupied "not getting involved" in order to save his Legion... when getting involved was the only way to save his Legion...

Come on Magnus, you're supposed to be CLEVER!


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

LongfangFenrika93 said:


> I just find it hard to believe, that the Thousand Sons (and Magnus if he gives a shit) didn't ultimately find out that the nature of their fall and casting as traitors was due to Horus' manipulations. And if they do in fact know that Horus was the one who manipulated him, why still fight the Imperium? The Thousand Sons were described as the most loyal of the Legions, I would think that their bitterness would be directed at their 'fellow' traitors.


You are assuming here that Horus had something to do with their fall. This bit of fluff seems to get altered every few novels. In the initial books he was responsible for influencing Russ, but this has changed.

Currently, as the fluff stands from _The Outcast Dead_, Horus was already known as a traitor before Magnus sent his message. Which makes him actually being involved extremely unlikely. The likeliest candidate now to have had any influence on Russ' actions is Valdor.

It's also still vague as to whether it was supposed to be an excecution or an arrest. _Prospero Burns_ would indicate that Russ was sent to execute, but considering that Dorn and Malcador describe Russ' actions as 'headstrong' and 'over-zealous' in _Deliverance Lost_ this might also not be the case.

Also, I think a possible reason for Magnus' turn was survival. His legion is damned in the eyes of the loyalists and they've been decimated by the Wolves (who still have warriors pursuing them). Maybe becoming allies with Horus was his best shot at making it through the Heresy.


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## LongfangFenrika93 (Jan 22, 2012)

> You are assuming here that Horus had something to do with their fall. This bit of fluff seems to get altered every few novels. In the initial books he was responsible for influencing Russ, but this has changed.
> 
> Currently, as the fluff stands from The Outcast Dead, Horus was already known as a traitor before Magnus sent his message. Which makes him actually being involved extremely unlikely. The likeliest candidate now to have had any influence on Russ' actions is Valdor.


If that is how fluff is then consider this, why is Magnus _still_ not bitter at Horus. Indirectly if the fluff is at the point you say it is, or directly as it was before, the Thousand Sons downfall is still as a result of Horus' betrayal. It doesn't explain why the Thousand Sons still fight for Chaos as a whole, knowing that the whole thing was Horus' and Lorgar's fault. I would've thought that they would in some way try to sabotage the rebellion, or combat Horus' efforts, perhaps retaining a scintilla of loyalty. 



> Also, I think a possible reason for Magnus' turn was survival. His legion is damned in the eyes of the loyalists and they've been decimated by the Wolves (who still have warriors pursuing them). Maybe becoming allies with Horus was his best shot at making it through the Heresy.


In the aftermath of the Heresy, okay yes the protection offered by the Ruinous Powers would have been the Legion's best shot for survival. But during the Heresy? Nope, I think that they could have easily melted into shadows, perhaps feeling beyond the boundary of the Imperium of skirting around its edges while they let the Heresy unfold. 'Weathering the Storm' I think the phrase is.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

In the aftermath of the Heresy, okay yes the protection offered by the Ruinous Powers would have been the Legion's best shot for survival. But during the Heresy? Nope, I think that they could have easily melted into shadows, perhaps feeling beyond the boundary of the Imperium of skirting around its edges while they let the Heresy unfold. 'Weathering the Storm' I think the phrase is.[/QUOTE]

Magnus had the loyalists hunting him, his choices where be hunted to death by the loyalists or stay out of the heresy, in which case the winner would come looking to kill him, or join Horus who although betrayed him would offer him protection. 

Think about it like the child soldiers in west africa, bandits come to your village kidnap you and make you kill a member off your family or they will kill the whole lot, the kids stay with the bandits cos they cant stay with their family after committing such a crime even though the bandits made them, fucked either way, just like Magnus


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

LongfangFenrika93 said:


> If that is how fluff is then consider this, why is Magnus _still_ not bitter at Horus. Indirectly if the fluff is at the point you say it is, or directly as it was before, the Thousand Sons downfall is still as a result of Horus' betrayal. It doesn't explain why the Thousand Sons still fight for Chaos as a whole, knowing that the whole thing was Horus' and Lorgar's fault. I would've thought that they would in some way try to sabotage the rebellion, or combat Horus' efforts, perhaps retaining a scintilla of loyalty.


Except their fall really isn't Horus' fault. No one told Magnus to use sorcery to try to warn the Emperor. In fact, the whole point of Nikaea was to get him to stop with the sorcery (well, not just him but he was still included). And the Sons still had the flesh change to contend with. Even without the Heresy something would have had to give at some point. The truth is the Sons were already fucked long before Horus turned traitor.

And why do they fight for chaos? Well, Magnus dedicated their service to Tzeentch. It was a price he paid to allow them to escape the wrath of the Wolves on Prospero. And what good would have come from sabotaging Horus? The loyalists weren't about to have anything to do with him and he already had a target on his back after the devastation he brought to Terra. Why piss off the traitors as well and be hated and targeted from all sides? Why hamper or destroy a potential ally for a cause he is no longer part of? He became a Daemon Prince, there really is no return to loyalty or redemption after that.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

What does "fight for chaos" mean in the real term?

Most of the sons actions since the heresy has been seeking personal treasure/ knowledge and seeking retribution/ revenge on the space wolves for destroying Prospero

There is no evidence that they are actively "furthering the ways of chaos" to topple the imperium like the word bearers and black legion. In fact non of the god specific legions do! 

Think about the death guard cause some plagues, nasty but hasn't got the aim to kill everyone

World eater kill maim burn, mehh, cities can be rebuilt and repopulated 

ECs just go and get high, not toppling an empire there

Destroying the imperium really doesn't matter

Also theres no evidence that it was Horus, more than likely it was Valdor. And Magnus likes horus and tried to save him and is very close to Lorgar, so it makes sense to side with those two than just wait to die


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## LongfangFenrika93 (Jan 22, 2012)

> Magnus had the loyalists hunting him, his choices where be hunted to death by the loyalists or stay out of the heresy, in which case the winner would come looking to kill him, or join Horus who although betrayed him would offer him protection.


Hunting him through the EoT? I can't imagine many Loyalists making their way to the Planet of the Sorcerers. The problem is though there is that Magnus chose certain damnation by joining Horus, while staying out of the Heresy and manipulating events to possibly save his Legion in the long run would be more logical. 



> Except their fall really isn't Horus' fault. No one told Magnus to use sorcery to try to warn the Emperor. In fact, the whole point of Nikaea was to get him to stop with the sorcery (well, not just him but he was still included). And the Sons still had the flesh change to contend with. Even without the Heresy something would have had to give at some point. The truth is the Sons were already fucked long before Horus turned traitor.


Indirectly it is. If Horus hadn't turned traitor, then the Sons wouldn't have been decimated by the Wolves for the reason they were. Regardless of whether the Sons would have been destroyed later by the flesh-change, or by breaking the Edict of Nikaea, I'm baffled by how quickly they accepted their lot. They may have been fucked before the Heresy, but Horus turning was the actual fucking, so to speak. 



> And why do they fight for chaos? Well, Magnus dedicated their service to Tzeentch. It was a price he paid to allow them to escape the wrath of the Wolves on Prospero. And what good would have come from sabotaging Horus? The loyalists weren't about to have anything to do with him and he already had a target on his back after the devastation he brought to Terra. Why piss off the traitors as well and be hated and targeted from all sides? Why hamper or destroy a potential ally for a cause he is no longer part of? He became a Daemon Prince, there really is no return to loyalty or redemption after that.


Running from possible destruction to certain servitude? Isn't much of a bargain there. I don't know I just see the Thousand Sons as smarter than that. They were the only Legion out of 18 that had the broadest understanding of the Immaterium, and they allow themselves to become slaves to a higher power? After centuries of teaching and training in the arts they roll over? Madness. 

Why piss off the traitors and sabotage them? Well, the Galaxy was in the predicament it was in because of Horus' fall, and Magnus always held in his teachings that Humanity should be enlightened and cradled and guided and the like. I would have thought, that as a reluctant traitor Magnus would have held true to at least a smidgeon of these teachings? Why hamper a potential ally? Because that potential ally was the reason, directly or indirectly, leading to the Legions almost destruction. 

And no return to loyalty or redemption, but vengeance against the main culprits perhaps.


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## LongfangFenrika93 (Jan 22, 2012)

> There is no evidence that they are actively "furthering the ways of chaos" to topple the imperium like the word bearers and black legion. In fact non of the god specific legions do!
> 
> Think about the death guard cause some plagues, nasty but hasn't got the aim to kill everyone
> 
> ...


By embracing Chaos, revelling in it and spreading its corruption, the 'God specific Legions' are actively furthering the ways of Chaos. Slaneeshi cults? Nurgle-devoted cults? The countless ones you here about from almost every world in the Warhammer 40k Universe? That pretty much is furthering the spread of Chaos. 

Destroying the Imperium matters very much to them. Despite their constant internecine wars the Traitor Legions all hate the Imperium immensely, it borders on obsession. Infact, it is an obsession for them. 

There is actually more evidence right now for it being Horus who manipulated the Wolves, since it was actually stated in the earlier Heresy novels, than it being Valdor who, quite frankly, I haven't heard one convincing argument for. 

Magnus may well have liked Horus and Lorgar, but after learning that Horus and Lorgar were about to bring the Galaxy to the brink of annihilation, I think he may have reconsidered. And I'm pretty sure that Magnus could do more than simply wait to die.


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## TheGoblin (Jul 19, 2012)

Perhaps it was the case that Magnus was just faced with utter despair. The realization that an entity more cruel and intelligent than he could possibly imagine was influencing his destiny perhaps even before he was born, as well as the destiny of the entire universe is bound to give a person pause for. When confronted with the truth, of his utter helplessness maybe he realized that it was futile to fight against such a being. Magnus considered himself above his "primordial ancestors" and thought that he could shepard them into a golden age. Now he realized that there is only one true master and that this "Golden Age" would end up empowering it. Why not serve Tzeentch, after all if he chose not to, he'd probably end up serving him anyway, so the best course of action is to embrace him. Such is the way with Tzeentch, whatever you do, he'll be pulling the strings.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Magnus shed what remaind of his loyalty to the imperium of man and to the Emperor when he refused to be killed by Russ, up till then all his actions were still (Ar least in his mind) geared towards the salvation of the imperium, as soon as he used the knowledge/power Tzeentch gave him to teleport himself and his entire legion of Prospero he officially became a plaything of Tzeentch (Arguably he always was).

The planet of Scorcerers was created by tzeentch to mock magnus and his legion as much as it was for them to use it as their home-base.

If he didnt join Tzeentch he had 2 options watch the remainder of his legion devolve into monsters, or die as he was meant to at the hands of Russ.

Magnus made the choice for the legion, the rest had no say in it, he may have been smart, his legion may have been preeminent in its understanding, but lets face it, in hindsight they out of all the legions were down right retarded, Magnus always believed he could control the warp, always felt he was more knowledgeable than the emperor, he didnt listen in Nikea, he didnt listen to his adopted farther, he didnt listen to his brothers, he always thought he had the answers, vanity and pride was his undoing and by extension his legions.

Ahriman embodies these values, he believed himself above Magnus, blinded by his own perceived superiority, he against the Emperors decree and that of magnus went ahead and did his Rubric.
What they both have in common is they both think they are the masters of their fate, yet at every turn they are guided, mislead and ruined, Ahriman thinks that he dosent serve Tzeentch yet every act he has perpetrated since the Heresy has done nought but empower the changer of ways.

(Anyway we still need at least one more novel of the thousand sons to really know what happened on the planet of the sorcerers and magnus's motives).

Magnus destroyed more than Horus and Lorgar did together, they may have brought the galaxy to the brink, but he imprisoned the Emperor, destroyed the Imperium's future and nearly destroyed Terra.


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## Lord Commander Solus (Jul 26, 2012)

Lost&Damned said:


> Magnus shed what remaind of his loyalty to the imperium of man and to the Emperor when he refused to be killed by Russ, up till then all his actions were still


[TSons Fanboy Mode]

Woah, now. Magnus was probably the most loyal Primarch, with the most loyal Legion. He was utterly loyal to the Emperor; so much so that he even denied a direct order from the Emperor in order to try and warn him about the betrayal. He could have obeyed the Emperor and not used his powers, and then the Big E may not have been warned about Horus. But so devoted was Magnus to the Emperor that he was prepared to earn his wrath to help and serve him. If that's not loyal I don't know what is.

As for refusing to be killed by Russ... come on, man! Russ starts landing troops everywhere and killing Magnus' Legion and *still* Magnus doesn't get involved. He waits until they've pretty much been screwed over before thundering down and turning on god-mode. If Russ had just made a strike at Magnus, rather than the whole bloody planet first, he may actually have come quietly. Instead, the dirty great Space Wolf decided to raze Prospero and its Legion first to get Magnus upset. He's got the subtlety of a nuclear missile, that one.

[/fanboy]

I've yet to read Prospero Burns, but I'll have to keep a Thousand Sons nearby in case I ever need to brace myself for the heretical anti-TSons propaganda I'm likely to read within.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

LongfangFenrika93 said:


> Hunting him through the EoT? I can't imagine many Loyalists making their way to the Planet of the Sorcerers. The problem is though there is that Magnus chose certain damnation by joining Horus, while staying out of the Heresy and manipulating events to possibly save his Legion in the long run would be more logical.


Well, we know Russ sent the 13th Great Company to pursue the Sons. And there isn't a question of being damned by joining Horus. Magnus had already ascended to daemonhood at that stage. He was as damned as you can be in the eyes of the Imperium already. And save what? His legion was already decimated to barely a 1000 warriors by the time he joined Horus, so sitting out and "manipulating events" really wouldn't have gotten him anywhere, except more distrust from others.



LongfangFenrika93 said:


> Indirectly it is. If Horus hadn't turned traitor, then the Sons wouldn't have been decimated by the Wolves for the reason they were. Regardless of whether the Sons would have been destroyed later by the flesh-change, or by breaking the Edict of Nikaea, I'm baffled by how quickly they accepted their lot. They may have been fucked before the Heresy, but Horus turning was the actual fucking, so to speak.


Yes, Horus turning influenced what happened to them. But the fact is that Horus could have turned without the Sons falling in the process. It was the arrogance of Magnus that ultimately was their downfall. It was Magnus' choice in the end to disobey the Emperor's decree and use sorcery. And you are also ignoring the fact that chaos had been manipulating both the Wolves and the Sons, for several decades at least, to turn against each other.




LongfangFenrika93 said:


> Running from possible destruction to certain servitude? Isn't much of a bargain there. I don't know I just see the Thousand Sons as smarter than that. They were the only Legion out of 18 that had the broadest understanding of the Immaterium, and they allow themselves to become slaves to a higher power? After centuries of teaching and training in the arts they roll over? Madness.


Serving Tzeentch would in all likelyhood actually have been a far better alternative than being utterly destroyed by the Wolves. A promise of knowledge and power, without the constraints placed on them by the Imperium. Sounds like it could appeal to them. Also, it becomes clear in _A Thousand Sons_ that they might know more than most of the others about the Warp, but that they really only know the bare minimum themselves. Even Magnus only fully realised the true nature of the warp in the end when it was too late to do anything about it. 



LongfangFenrika93 said:


> Why piss off the traitors and sabotage them? Well, the Galaxy was in the predicament it was in because of Horus' fall, and Magnus always held in his teachings that Humanity should be enlightened and cradled and guided and the like. I would have thought, that as a reluctant traitor Magnus would have held true to at least a smidgeon of these teachings? Why hamper a potential ally? Because that potential ally was the reason, directly or indirectly, leading to the Legions almost destruction.
> 
> And no return to loyalty or redemption, but vengeance against the main culprits perhaps.


But remember that this isn't the same Magnus who had served the Imperium loyally. He was a broken shell of his former self, who had witnessed brother turn on brother and watched his world and legion burn for his mistakes. Also, like I mentioned earlier, he had already ascended to daemonhood, thus literally becoming a small part of Tzeentch. It's likely that this would have had some impact on his personality.



LongfangFenrika93 said:


> There is actually more evidence right now for it being Horus who manipulated the Wolves, since it was actually stated in the earlier Heresy novels, than it being Valdor who, quite frankly, I haven't heard one convincing argument for.


Except like I said, _The Outcast Dead_ changes things so that Horus was already known as a traitor by then. Hell, the Dropsite Massacre occurs within the timeframe of the book. The 7 legion fleet had already been sent to Isstvan when Magnus' warning arrives on Terra. And we know from _A Thousand Sons_ that Valdor did have some influence. Magnus still notes it when he observes the Space Wolf fleet approaching Prospero. And why would Valdor be upset? Magnus not only broke the Nikaea decree (something we know Custodians are really anal about) but endangered the life of the Emperor in doing so (who is really Valdor's sole purpose for existence) and the entire safety of Terra as well. Not only that, but the chances are good that many Custodians died defending the breach Magnus had created from daemons. So there's plenty of reason for Valdor to be pissed.





LongfangFenrika93 said:


> Magnus may well have liked Horus and Lorgar, but after learning that Horus and Lorgar were about to bring the Galaxy to the brink of annihilation, I think he may have reconsidered. And I'm pretty sure that Magnus could do more than simply wait to die.


But he did try to warn Horus when he found out what was going to happen. It didn't work. By the time he learned the whole truth he really was too far gone down the road of damnation to do anything other than what he did.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

@Solus
So loyal that he bargained with warp entities before the heresy (thats how he lost his eye)?

So loyal he went directly against the edicts of Nikea, the Emperor literally spelt it out for him, had a massive meeting with all the top tier of the imperium, his brothers warned him, his adopted farther warned him, not very loyal it seems.

The entire reason he used his powers (if you read the novel a thousand you would know) was because he wanted to prove the Emperor wrong, he wanted to use the fact he would "save" imperium using his psychic powers to overturn the edict of Nikea.

after he had destroyed the webway, imprisoned the emperor on his throne, almost destroyed Terra, threatened the Emperors well-being, obliterated the imperium's future, i think he deserved the ass raping Russ gave him.

there is also another VERY big reason Russ went all out, Russ really didnt want to do it, but its a massive spoiler, it shows why the Emperor was so harsh on magnus and why Russ came like a ton of bricks to Prospero


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## Apostle (Jun 29, 2012)

Lord Commander Solus said:


> [TSons Fanboy Mode]
> 
> Woah, now. Magnus was probably the most loyal Primarch, with the most loyal Legion. He was utterly loyal to the Emperor; so much so that he even denied a direct order from the Emperor in order to try and warn him about the betrayal. He could have obeyed the Emperor and not used his powers, and then the Big E may not have been warned about Horus. But so devoted was Magnus to the Emperor that he was prepared to earn his wrath to help and serve him. If that's not loyal I don't know what is.
> 
> ...


Read it if not at least for the little fluff on the Thousand Son's it does contain. I am rabidly again Russ and his puppies and all for Magnus and his badass Sorcerer's. But I can't deny that it's one of the best Horus Heresy Novels.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Ahriman poured everything into the Rune Priest: the corruption
of Horus and the betrayal of everything the Emperor had
sought to create, the monstrous scale of the imminent war and
the horror that lay at the end of it. Win or lose, a time of ultimate
darkness was coming, and as Ahriman opened Wyrdmake to all
that he had seen, he too learned all that had driven the Space
Wolves and the Custodes to make such furious war upon the
Thousand Sons.
He saw the honeyed words of Horus and the sinister urgings of
Constantin Valdor, each spoken with very different purposes,
but designed to sway Leman Russ towards a destination of total
destruction.

quote in the novel thousand sons, regarding what role Valdor played


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

LongfangFenrika93 said:


> I can't figure out why the Thousand Sons fought under Horus after the Fall of Prospero, and then continued to fight, on occasion, for Abaddon in the millennia after.


He's embittered by the Wolves, even if he was originally loyal: the Emperor sent the Wolves against him, (apparently) knowing full well what they would do. The Emperor betrayed Magnus for 'trying to help'. Even the opening monologue in _A Thousand Sons_ comments on Magnus' state: "power such as this once given cannot be returned" or words to that effect.

As AD-B said:



AD-B said:


> The problem with stuff like this is that it isn't just black and white. It's not Good and Evil, Pure or Fallen. Thematically, it's the War in Heaven, but it's not the same beyond the theme. The details are wildly different.
> 
> Chaos isn't just... Pure Evil. It's not "Magnus was suddenly a bad guy". Like many "villains", he's a guy in a bad place because of bad decisions he - and others- made.
> 
> ...





LongfangFenrika93 said:


> My point is, how the hell did they not know that Horus had tricked Russ into wiping them out, rather than bringing them peacefully back to Terra.


Well we don't know that for ourselves. _Prospero Burns_ certainly doesn't portray a Russ under the impression that he was ordered to bring Magnus peacefully back to Terra. The Emperor's warning at Nikaea in _A Thousand Sons_ also doesn't portray him as unwilling to visit destruction upon those who betray him. The _Collected Visions_ also states that the Emperor wished nothing less than destruction for Prospero and the 'Sons.

Horus did contact Russ, we know that much from _False Gods_(?) and _A Thousand Sons_. But did he change the course that Russ had already embarked upon?

What I think we should instead concentrate on is the revelations of _Prospero Burns_: that Chaos went to great extents to influence both the VI and XV Legions, and was involved in the events that led up to the fall of Prospero. 



LongfangFenrika93 said:


> I just find it hard to believe, that the Thousand Sons (and Magnus if he gives a shit) didn't ultimately find out that the nature of their fall and casting as traitors was due to Horus' manipulations.


Was their fall due to Horus' manipulations though? Valdor certainly seems to have had a strong influence on proceedings as _Chompy_ said. But again, it comes down to Chaos' influence and manipulations rather than Horus'.



Chompy Bits said:


> Currently, as the fluff stands from _The Outcast Dead_, Horus was already known as a traitor before Magnus sent his message. Which makes him actually being involved extremely unlikely. The likeliest candidate now to have had any influence on Russ' actions is Valdor.


I would love to hear from Graham Mcneill regarding that aspect of _The Outcast Dead_, I have emailed him myself concerning it but have received no reply - when usually he is actually quite good at replying to fan queries.



Chompy Bits said:


> Also, I think a possible reason for Magnus' turn was survival. His legion is damned in the eyes of the loyalists and they've been decimated by the Wolves (who still have warriors pursuing them). Maybe becoming allies with Horus was his best shot at making it through the Heresy.


I havn't got a copy of the _Collected Visions_ to hand, but I know it covers Magnus' joining of the Heresy. If anyone can look it up and post the relevant quote it would be appriciated.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

A constant thread with the TS is, no matter their incidential intentions, they were in league with Tzeench from virtually their conception... literally if the Big E's pact with Chaos was actual. Magnus, then Ahriman, could only turn to Chaos to stop the dramatic explosion of Chaos within their flesh due to their inherint powers.

In A Thousand Sons 

their spiritual familiars are with them constantly and in the end revealed to be their own little daemon pets, that serve as both power enhancers and drip-IV heroine bags for the Immaterium. Magnus muses that when he breaks through the protective barriers on Terra he instantly mind-melds with the Emperor, who already understands Horus's betrayal. During that mind-meld the Emperor also suddenly finds out that Magnus had literally sold his soul and his Legion to Tzeench to stop the mutations. 
 From my standpoint, Magnus found himself at the end of a very long and well-established Faustian bargain, not at the start of one. The Emperor knew this as well, and also knew Magnus was utterly compromised to Chaos at this point. The surprise would have been if Russ was sent to Prospero to do less than execute the judgement of Nikea on Magnus.

While most of the information may have come to Ahriman on the cusp of Prospero being destroyed, he also recognized the bargain for what it was and had to go with it. After Ahriman cast the Rubric, the TS don't even have their bodies owed to the Emperor anymore. The Big E, their progenitor/creator, built them with an open invitation to Chaos and their own Father Magnus co-signed the deal. At this point, I can't think of a single reason the TS would isolate themselves from the HH.


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## Apostle (Jun 29, 2012)

'Russ was convinced by Horus' silver tongue to launch an all-out planetary assault on the seditious Thousand Sons rather than attempt to negotiate with them or bring their Primarch Magnus the Red back to Terra peacefully. Horus claimed that the Emperor wanted to punish Magnus'

from the wiki. They should change that if some of the above statements are correct. I mean that basically is saying that the Emperor wished for him to be tried for his crimes on Terra, but Horus convinced him the Emperor wanted him killed instead.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Apostle said:


> 'Russ was convinced by Horus' silver tongue to launch an all-out planetary assault on the seditious Thousand Sons rather than attempt to negotiate with them or bring their Primarch Magnus the Red back to Terra peacefully. Horus claimed that the Emperor wanted to punish Magnus'
> 
> from the wiki. They should change that if some of the above statements are correct. I mean that basically is saying that the Emperor wished for him to be tried for his crimes on Terra, but Horus convinced him the Emperor wanted him killed instead.


I've read a lot of TS fluff, though never had the Codicies, but have still never seen a direct quotation on the Emperor only wanting a trial for Magnus. Magnus's ultimate purpose was to power the Astronimican, as identified by Magnus himself in The Thousand Sons, and he was completely damaged goods for that purpose once the Emp found out he had sold out to Tzeench.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Well I've re-read _Fulgrim_ once time recently and on page 320, there is a envoy sent to Fulgrim, notifying that shortly after the events of _False Gods_ (when Magnus broke the edict) and shortly before Isstvan III, _Galaxy in flames_, Russ were sent to bring Magnus back to Terra. It was on Macladores orders btw.

As I understand it, it was Horus who told the Emperor/Malcadore "Hey Magnus broke the rules, punish him!" But then we have _The Outcast Dead_, who according to the book takes place during the end and after _Fulgrim_, its then Magnus broke through the Emperor's defenses.

According to Swallow, the time-difference is because the Emepror fought back to stop Magnus and then we have a time dialation-difference. So Magnus realises once he reaches the Emperor its already too late, Horus is a traitor and the Wolves are coming for him.

McNeill has said this will be explained in a later novel, kinda like _The Outcast Dead_ explained why Curze were at Isstvan V despite _The Dark King_, and _The Lion_ explained the ending of _Fallen Angels_.

Also from my understanding, Magnus realized he had done Tzeentchs bidding all this time and just went for it, he had lost everything and this was his only chance of survival. And I think Tzeentch then said "Go with Horus!"

Edit: Also on page 506 of Fulgrim it says "Following the Warmasters misdirection of Leman Russ, the Space Wolves were known to be operating in the region of Prospero...."


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