# Help really needed fighting Eldar :(



## pez376 (Mar 24, 2009)

Hi Guys,

This is my 1st post and I would love to say first off that this appears to be a great site but I really need some help 

I recently played my necrons vs. an Eldar army in a 1500pt game. I was seriously confronted with an Avatar and two wraithlord combo (not sure if its my friend being SUPER LAME on this one but he does insist this IS his regular list). 
Needless to say my tactic to port out of harms way using VoD and a monolith was NOT a success and my army was unceremoniously munched up...fun for my opponent seriously not fun for me (especially as I was thinking "why on earth did I buy a necron army, when my Black Legion chaos marines had some stuff that I could buy too combat this").

Now I really do have trouble with Eldar when playing because I always find it hard to play against. No matter what army I am playing with chaos marines/Space Wolves or Necrons, I always seem to come off worse for wear.

I just need some guidance and tips to combat against them.

For my Necrons I was seriously considering 3 x monoliths and a nightbringer. But that leaves me at great risk of a phase out... or even 3x squadrons of 5 destroyers. But this means I am reacting to a threat of elements within an opponent army rather that beating the opponent.

Your advice will be gratefully received unless it is...Getting rid of your necrons LOL.

Many Thanks in advance Pez


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## Steel Nathan (Apr 26, 2008)

First and important, welcome to Heresy man!

Eldar are usually cheapholes to deal with, but they are fun to beat up to remove your fustrations. I don't know much about Necrons (tactics wise) but I do know Eldar, so I can help you right there.  

Wraithlords are hard to take out, tough as hell, but they are easy to kill once you wound them however. Despite having an insane Toughness, they have no invunerable save what so ever. A good idea IMO is to get a couple of heavy destroyers. If they nail a shot, wound it, that's one wound gone right there. Of course, there's two of them there, so it may take a few shots to actually kill them. If that won't work, then bash them up with the Monolith a bit until you destroy it. With the armour and special defense rules for the Monolith, a Wraithlord won't be able to kill off the Monolith easily, while you can smack it across the room freely. :laugh:

The avatar may pose a problem however. It has a good toughness, a good save, and a decent invunerable save. The best bet would be to grab some destroyers and mass fire at it. It has to fail those saves at some point! If he has a Farseer to fortune the bastard, then it may take a bit more to kill it. 

A Nightbringer would be an ok choice to bash out the Eldar with. A C'tan weapon is all the dude needs when having a nice Avatar invading the board. The only problem is that the Wraithlords can shoot it down before it gets to combat, seeing that it only moves 6" per turn. 

What other units does this guy use by any chance? I was curious if he used a shooty army, or an assault army, as your tactics would severly be changed depending on what army he used. For a shooty army (Dark Reapers, Fire Prisms, War Walkers), it might be a thought to deep strike a monolith and competely fire the hell out of everything there in his area. The worst thing a shooty army can have is the enemy popping out right in front of him. It may get destroyed (don't put anything in there :wink), but if you can eliminate some of his shooty units, then you are in luck for a good chance to win! 

If he plays a combat/mech army, then you may be in for a bit of trouble. Necrons arn't excatly the best when it comes to combat, but they do have the weapons (gauss *coughs*) to be able to damage his tanks and whatnot. A Necron Lord with some items and Pariahs might be a good idea to help position yourself for some defense moves. But in general, shoot him out! Once he looses a few things (hopefully his Wraithlords and Avatar), he should be easier to rip out. 

That's all I can write for now really. If you don't understand anything, don't be afraid to say do. I'm a bit tired at the moment, and I may be a bit groggy, therefore my typing may be crap a bit. >_>

Edit: The text is defenitey going hazy on me. Yep, it's bedtime for Steel!


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

I agree; Welcome to Heresy. It's always nice to have another Necron player on the board.

Eldar can be tough to deal with, but the Necron army has all the components needed to beat them.

First, they fall into absolutely despair when seeing multiple Monoliths. Their weapons _can_ deal with it, but not easily. If you play multiple Monoliths, watch for Wraithguard and Swooping Hawks. They can take down the Monolith with a fair degree of ease, but you can neutralize them with some planning. The Wraithguard are tough, but they have very small range. The Swooping Hawks have better mobility, but they are fragile. To a lesser extent watch out for Fire dragons, and Wraithlords They can manage to bring down Monoliths rarely. There are other pieces of gear that can do it too, but I don't usually encounter them :grin:

The second thing to consider is Necrons are great against shooting armies, poor against CC armies. This means you should focus your fire on transports and CC units first, shooting units second in almost all situations.

To specifics, against Wraithlords and Avatars, Steel Nathan is correct. Heavy Destroyers and a C'Tan are great. I would highly advise you against Nightbringer in favor of The Deceiver, but either will do the job. Deceiver is just better at it. If you do use the Monolith to shoot at them, don't forget that a model under the center hole of the Particle Whip suffers an AP1 wound (or unit it it's not a single model). It's important :biggrin:

I would advise against taking a Lord against a Wraithlord (his toughness is too high), or an Avatar (his weapon skill is too high). It _can_ be done, but it's not likely. You're best bet against both is to shoot them. Failing that, hit they with the C'Tan. Deceiver will eat them both fairly easily.

Against farseer and seer councils, S6 weapons from Destroyers are instant death. They work very well.

For more, there is a pretty good Necron Tactica in the Tactica section under Tactics, and read the Necron lists posted here. There is a lot of tactics discussed here too


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## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

I play Eldar and just want to echo some of the comments above. The Avatar is a beast but he can be taken down by massed fire. Even with a good armor save and a decent invulnerable save, he will fail some eventually and even though his toughness is good, it's not amazing. 

Our troops die pretty easy, especially once you get past our armor saves with an AP weapon. Low toughness is the bane of Eldar. We suffer wounds a lot once hit and rely on our saves.

Also to the guy above mentioning using S6 weapons vs the Seer Council, I fail to see how that does anything other then have a better chance to wound. Just because it is double toughness does not mean they don't get to take a save. They still get their invulnerable save and most likely a second invulnerable save due ot Fortune. The instant death rule would do nothing except vs Farseers and you'd have to kill the entire squad first. Which again with Fortune is not exactly easy. A Seer Council squad charge against a Monolith would also be extremely bad. It just won't happen though if you don't let it.


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

Siphon said:


> Also to the guy above mentioning using S6 weapons vs the Seer Council, I fail to see how that does anything other then have a better chance to wound. Just because it is double toughness does not mean they don't get to take a save. They still get their invulnerable save and most likely a second invulnerable save due ot Fortune. The instant death rule would do nothing except vs Farseers and you'd have to kill the entire squad first.


Not true. Due to the way that wound allocation works in 5th, it's much harder to hide ICs in squads. If you don't cause enough wounds to spread to the IC, all well and good. But if there are 10 in the squad, and 10 wounds, each model is going to have to make 1 save. If the Farseer fails, he takes the wound (in this case fails twice). If that wound is S6, it's instant death. 

When I brought it up previously, I wasn't saying there is no save, I was saying that it helps bring down the multi-wound Farseer. With a good armor save, good invulnerable save and the ability to re-roll a failed save, it's hard to make wounds stick. If you have to get 3 to stick it's a real pain. I'd much rather only have to try for a single S6 wound.

Doesn't matter much against the warlocks in the squad, but it does vs. the Farseer. 



Siphon said:


> A Seer Council squad charge against a Monolith would also be extremely bad. It just won't happen though if you don't let it.


A Seer Council charge against a Monolith is pointless. The Witchblade isn't a powerfist analog. It triples the users strength specifically against vehicles. This specific vehicle action is negated by living armor. The reason a powerfist works is it's action doubles the users strength in all situations, so it isn't seen as unaugmented. A witchblade by contrast strikes at S3 vs. non-vehicles (even if it wounds on a 2+), but at S9 vs. vehicles. This augmentation is negated.

"In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what". pp. 21 Necron Codex.


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## pez376 (Mar 24, 2009)

Hi Guys, Many thanks for the responses, and it has given me a few things to consider. especially taking deceiver over nightbringer 

(Im will admit I'm not entirely sure how, I can see that nightbringer is a CC beast, but using deceiver (And please i am not wishing to doubt you) the deceive ability will only tie up 1 model leaving two to roam free, dread cant be used on the avatar and wraithlords as they are fearless, and misdirect will only again tie up the models so it wont kill them) as for the C'TAN special abilities nightbringer also has them so im a little lost on this and would be ever so grateful on explaining this further. This is assuming of course that he is gunning for the C'TAN.. )
I can see an army list shaping up in my mind at the moment I only hope I got the points value to make it happen lol.
regarding my friends list; from memory..

hq: farseer
hq: avatar
hq: warlocks upgraded to spiritseers.
troops: Dire Avengers c/w wave serpent with exarch
troops: guardians c/w heavy weapons platform (defender squad)
troops: guardians (storm squad) accompanied with the warlocks spiritseers -right behind the wraithlords.
fast attacks: shinning spears with exarch
elite: fire dragons c/w wave serpent with exarch
heavy support: Wraithlord - swordlord
heavy support: Wraithlord - scatter laser

I have found on the number of previous occasions that I Played my mate he does favor Doom, and cant remember the last time he cast fortune...as he is an ex-games workshop employee, I have no doubts that he has just forgotten to cast fortune..just that he would rather gain the extra re-rolls to damage.

ok my list for my 'crons

hq: lord c/w rez orb and SoL
hq: lord c/w VoD/ rez orb and SoL
Elite: 5 x immortals
troops: 14 x warriors
troops: 14x warriors
fast attacks: 5x scarabs
fast attacks: 4x scarabs
heavy support: monolith
heavy support: tomb spyder
heavy support: heavy destroyer

ok my initial tactics was to stay at range, use the scarabs to delay for a turn or two any enemy units coming my way and shoot with my troops (using tomb spyder and rez orbs for my WBB rolls) if i took too much grief then port out of the way and also use the port on the monolith to gain the extra WBB rolls...

what happened was (an old army term - any plan does not survive contact with the enemy lol)

I found my scarabs (was just chew up and spat out by the Avatar/wraithlord combo..one hit from them was a base killed..) and heavy destroyer (was either not hitting or if he did was not causing damage - due to bad die rolls and with heavy 1 shot it was eithr hit or miss..waste of points on it own this game) so these units was next to useless and played little part in the game. my most effective model was the monolith - getting in a few good dice rolls on the power matrix D6 per unit hits. I couldn't get to use the particle whip at the walkers due to it being so busy porting units to regain the WBB rolls 

he led with his avatar/wraithlord combos towards my monolith and troops/elites and mashed them up quite convincingly. my units were mainly killed off by sweeping advance. meanwhile his dire avengers and fire dragons flanked me and took out my other troops holding a 2nd objective. I only managed to use the port on my monolith to regurgitate my immortals, and will admit i should of ported my flanked troops using the VOD but that is with hindsight and regretted not doing it during the game. in all not a good fight for me, when i usually perform better...its was just the avatar and wraithlords combo i found near unstoppable. (even though i got them down to a wound or so each but by the time i did that amount of damage by shooting i was assaulted and entered CC, then it WAS game over).

I thought I had a quite balanced list; but as with everything it is obviously still quite fallible.


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

Try turboboosting your scarabs on your first turn so they are not in range of the avatar and his friends, but ready to go for his weaker squads, that will tie them up nicely for a while. hide a lord in one of your troop units, and give it a c'than blade to eat up any CC squads that get near. Finally, maybe add that 2nd monolith for more arc flux goodness and particle whippyness.
I'm not very knowledgeable about necrons, but these are things I've seen used against me. ( Sisters of Battle though )
Fill out your destroyers squad, have them go for his seer to force him to use his fortune on them instead of the avatar, then rapidfire it to death with warriors.
Always make sure that you know where he has put his fortune in your shooting phase, if it's on the farseer herself, go for the avatar, if on the avatar, give the farseer some heavy destroyer goodness.


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## aegius (Mar 24, 2009)

Hi lee, Hi everyone

I'm the one he has been having trouble with.

I will lend him a bit of a hand here so that you can help him. I will post the list that I used for the game against him, but as he is tailoring his army to deal specifically with me, I won't be giving my updated list. The updated list isn't much different to the list that I used before, its just a little more efficient.

avatar of khaine
farseer - runes of warding,doom
5Xfire dragons
wave serpent - spirit stones, scatter laser
10Xdire avengers - Exarch, power weapon shimmer shield, defend
10Xdire avengers - Exarch, dual shuriken catapults, bladestorm
wave serpent - spirit stones, eldar missile launcher
10X storm guardians - 2X flamer, warlock, destructor
10X guardian defenders - scatter laser
3X shining spears - Exarch, shuriken cannon(cos I modelled it on when I was an eldar noob), withdraw
wraithlord - wraithsword
wraithlord - wraithsword, scatter laser

The reason I wrote this list is that I got fed up of playing the whole 'tailored list' game, so I gave something for my friends to struggle against as they always seem to tailor a list specifically against their opponent. I've tested this list in a few games now against a few different army types and found that although it has been very successful, it lacks in a few areas, so I decided to tweak it.

The advise I would give you is to get rid of 1 of the lords and the tomb spider from your original list. That formation is a legacy of 4th edition. With the new sweeping advance rules, the whole WBB redundancy is kind of errrrrrrrrrrrrr.......redundant.

With the points you've saved, get 2 more heavy destroyers and start loading up on destroyers, possibly get rid of 1 of the units of scarabs to fund the destroyers.

One reason I'm doing well with this army is that I designed it with a purpose, with a game play in mind. I know WHY each unit is in my army and what I expect it to do. 

At the end of the day, you can have the best list or the cheesiest list in the world, but if you don't know what you are doing with each component, you probably won't win with it.


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## pez376 (Mar 24, 2009)

BAH you wernt suppose to see this steve!!!!!!!!!


Damm youuuuuuuuuu lol


Well your right your list is something I have really struggled with hence my post on here. IMO it was very effective and not something i could counter well, that is any army i could post. This has given me quite a quandary to solve, not to tailor my list but to work out wot is unbalanced in my list to effective a means of resistance.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

aegius said:


> At the end of the day, you can have the best list or the cheesiest list in the world, but if you don't know what you are doing with each component, you probably won't win with it.


Nob bikers. Templar Swarm.

Move forward. Pick other people's units off the table. :biggrin:


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## aegius (Mar 24, 2009)

LordWaffles said:


> Nob bikers. Templar Swarm.
> 
> Move forward. Pick other people's units off the table. :biggrin:


Its ok having those units, but there are people out there that wouldn't have a clue what they are doing with them. To you and me, those are point and click units, but there are people that wouldn't have a clue what they are doing. :wink:


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## buckythefly (Mar 16, 2009)

I just want to say welcome to Heresy, Necrons are really cool don't ditch them!

I don't have many battle strategies for you, as an Ork player all I do against eldar is rush to get stuck in as fast as I can. 

One little tip I can offer is don't ever focus your entire army on just fighting the avatar You can lose a lot of your guys trying to singlemindedly take it down and then just lose a battle of attrition even if you do tackle it.

Take that with a grain of salt you've got much more accurate advice from people who know necron strategy, I just get way to set on a single objective sometimes. But most of all Welcome!


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## Steel Nathan (Apr 26, 2008)

I don't know really, when you mentioned that aegius had Wraithlords, I pictured them having different equipement... 

I know that it may be hard to post your ideas now (with the enemy sitting there. ), but could we see a basic idea of what you plan to do? A good idea is to post the list to the army list forums and get some list help against the Eldar.  (Sorry if it's there already, I usually don't go to that spot. <_<).


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## Siphon (Jan 17, 2009)

Daneel2.0 said:


> A Seer Council charge against a Monolith is pointless. The Witchblade isn't a powerfist analog. It triples the users strength specifically against vehicles. This specific vehicle action is negated by living armor. The reason a powerfist works is it's action doubles the users strength in all situations, so it isn't seen as unaugmented. A witchblade by contrast strikes at S3 vs. non-vehicles (even if it wounds on a 2+), but at S9 vs. vehicles. This augmentation is negated.
> 
> "In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what". pp. 21 Necron Codex.



Just wanted to follow up. I see your point about Living Armor and Witchblades, but not the powerfist.

Augment - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Augment

If it negates one, it negates both. Augment only means to increase or make larger. Doubling one or tripling one specifically against vehicles doesn't matter. They both make it greater then it originally is and are therefore negated by Living Armor.

EDIT: If anything, I would even read it the exact opposite as you. To augment something you make it greater, i.e. doubling it. Witchblades actually say "count as" meaning instead of modifing an existing number, you are replacing it or substituting it. You are not tripling anything or adding anything to the user's S value. It's a very tricky word line and I wouldn't really argue it in a game as a good sport, but it's interesting to chat about here.


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

pez376 said:


> I will admit I'm not entirely sure how, I can see that nightbringer is a CC beast, but using deceiver (And please i am not wishing to doubt you) the deceive ability will only tie up 1 model leaving two to roam free, dread cant be used on the avatar and wraithlords as they are fearless, and misdirect will only again tie up the models so it wont kill them) as for the C'TAN special abilities nightbringer also has them so im a little lost on this and would be ever so grateful on explaining this further.


Nightbringer is a CC beast, but for the most part, Deceiver is better (for fewer points too). Nightbringer has one higher weapons skill, strength and attack, but one lower initiative. Against most things the difference between the weapons skill and the strength is negligible. The one extra attack is nice, but I’d rather hit first (and is often made up for in the charge). The special abilities are where are telling though. Nightbringer has an good to excellent (mid range) ranged attack, a decent template attack and the ability to get out of combat with opponents with strength under 4. Deceiver has the ability to re-deploy a significant amount of the army, his deceive power affects a unit not a model (even a fearless one), dread is nice but like you said doesn’t affect fearless units. But misdirect allow you to leave ANY assault with any unit no matter the strength. This means that you will always get the charge bonus, and things like furious charge won’t come into play. So, lets just do the math on the two C’Tan vs. Wraithlords and Avatars. (no charge bonus in Nightbringer case either way, charge bonus to Deceiver in the other). 

Nightbringer (N) vs. Wraithlord – no wraithblade.(W)
Hit at same time. N deals 2.8 wounds on average, no save. W deals 0.42 unsaved wounds. In other words, by the numbers, it will take N 1.07 turns to kill W taking 0.45 wounds in the process.

N vs. Avatar (A) 
Avatar hits first. A deals 0.22 unsaved wounds to N. N deals 2.08 wounds, no save back. So it takes N 1.9 turns to kill A and he takes 0.42 wounds in return.

Deceiver (D) vs. W
D goes first. D deals 2.2 wounds to W, no save. W deals 0.42 unsaved wounds back. So it takes 1.36 turns for D to kill W and he takes 0.57 wounds in return.

D vs. A
A hits first. A deals 0.22 unsaved wounds to D. D deals 1.67 wounds back, no save. So it takes D 2.4 turns to kill A and he takes 0.5 wounds in return.

As you can see, there isn’t much difference by the numbers, but the possibilities are interesting. For instance it’s easily possible for the Deceiver to kill the Wraithlord off completely, before the Wraithlord has the opportunity to attack back.



pez376 said:


> hq: lord c/w rez orb and SoL,; hq: lord c/w VoD/ rez orb and SoL; Elite: 5 x immortals; troops: 14 x warriors; troops: 14x warriors; fast attacks: 5x scarabs; fast attacks: 4x scarabs; heavy support: monolith; heavy support: tomb spyder; heavy support: heavy destroyer


Alright, you have several problems with your list as it sits. First, you warriors should be split up again to form another squad. You can eek the extra points for 2 more warriors from somewhere. That gives you 3 squads to hold objectives instead of 2, and you want to optimize the squad to defend against sweeping advance caused PO, so keep squad sizes small. 

Second you don’t take advantage of WBB well. With Necrons, you need to look to double up squads whenever possible. Your immortals and your single heavy destroyer are both squads that are very easy to eliminate, and if you don’t have a standing model of the same type w/in 6” you can’t WBB. By focusing fire on your immortals until all 5 are down he eliminates that threat and denies you WBB. Same with your heavy destroyer (and with your heavy destroyer, a single model isn’t going to be effective. You need at least 2 in the squad and you need at least 2 squads to play it effectively).

Scarabs should be maximized whenever possible since they are weak individually and strong in numbers. Two squads allow you to tie up 2 units true, but the job doesn’t get done as well for either. Add to that your Fast Attack slots are the most important in the Necron army, and using 2 FOC for small sized squads wastes the FOC slot. In this particular case it’s not such a big deal, but the principle holds :wink:

The tomb spyder is wasted here (well, imo it’s wasted everywhere). You only have the warriors that it can benefit. Ditch it for something else.

Finally, the VOD isn’t as good in 5th Edition non-apocalypse play as it used to be. It can still be handy, but because you aren’t dealing with the same squad sizes, and glancing doesn’t work as well vs. tanks, it just isn’t as valuable. Now it still works well for late game objective grabbing (or contesting), so it’s not worthless, but I don’t think you need it here.



pez376 said:


> ok my initial tactics was to stay at range, use the scarabs to delay for a turn or two any enemy units coming my way and shoot with my troops (using tomb spyder and rez orbs for my WBB rolls) if i took too much grief then port out of the way and also use the port on the monolith to gain the extra WBB rolls...


You opponent looks to be playing a well balanced Eldar list (props aegius !). 



Siphon said:


> Just wanted to follow up. I see your point about Living Armor and Witchblades, but not the powerfist.


The reason that powerfists ignore living metal is because the FAQ says so :grin: 



Siphon said:


> If it negates one, it negates both. Augment only means to increase or make larger. Doubling one or tripling one specifically against vehicles doesn't matter.


It actually did matter, since they ruled that anything that was specifically directed against vehicles didn’t work, but anything that was a general augmentation was fine. I was giving you the 4th edition, reasoning behind the rule. Now that the powerfist is FAQed, the reasoning doesn’t matter anymore.



Siphon said:


> EDIT: If anything, I would even read it the exact opposite as you. To augment something you make it greater, i.e. doubling it. Witchblades actually say "count as" meaning instead of modifing an existing number, you are replacing it or substituting it. You are not tripling anything or adding anything to the user's S value. It's a very tricky word line and I wouldn't really argue it in a game as a good sport, but it's interesting to chat about here.


The counts as is still an augmentation, even if it replaces the initial value, since a model whose strength is 3 has his strength increased to 9 specifically against vehicles. The weapon augments his strength, which is why it counts as more.

And yes, it is a good time discussing it :grin:


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## aegius (Mar 24, 2009)

Daneel2.0 said:


> Nightbringer is a CC beast, but for the most part, Deceiver is better (for fewer points too). Nightbringer has one higher weapons skill, strength and attack, but one lower initiative. Against most things the difference between the weapons skill and the strength is negligible. The one extra attack is nice, but I’d rather hit first (and is often made up for in the charge). The special abilities are where are telling though. Nightbringer has an good to excellent (mid range) ranged attack, a decent template attack and the ability to get out of combat with opponents with strength under 4. Deceiver has the ability to re-deploy a significant amount of the army, his deceive power affects a unit not a model (even a fearless one), dread is nice but like you said doesn’t affect fearless units. But misdirect allow you to leave ANY assault with any unit no matter the strength. This means that you will always get the charge bonus, and things like furious charge won’t come into play. So, lets just do the math on the two C’Tan vs. Wraithlords and Avatars. (no charge bonus in Nightbringer case either way, charge bonus to Deceiver in the other).
> 
> Nightbringer (N) vs. Wraithlord – no wraithblade.(W)
> Hit at same time. N deals 2.8 wounds on average, no save. W deals 0.42 unsaved wounds. In other words, by the numbers, it will take N 1.07 turns to kill W taking 0.45 wounds in the process.
> ...


The maths here is a little irrelevant. He won't be facing an Avatar *or* a wraithlord(swordlord), he will be facing an Avatar*and* 2 wraithlords. If he does get the charge on 1 wraithlord or the Avatar, then he will be getting counter charged by the other 2 MCs.



Daneel2.0 said:


> Alright, you have several problems with your list as it sits. First, you warriors should be split up again to form another squad. You can eek the extra points for 2 more warriors from somewhere. That gives you 3 squads to hold objectives instead of 2, and you want to optimize the squad to defend against sweeping advance caused PO, so keep squad sizes small.
> 
> Second you don’t take advantage of WBB well. With Necrons, you need to look to double up squads whenever possible. Your immortals and your single heavy destroyer are both squads that are very easy to eliminate, and if you don’t have a standing model of the same type w/in 6” you can’t WBB. By focusing fire on your immortals until all 5 are down he eliminates that threat and denies you WBB. Same with your heavy destroyer (and with your heavy destroyer, a single model isn’t going to be effective. You need at least 2 in the squad and you need at least 2 squads to play it effectively).
> 
> ...


I agree with all the points you have made about his list, I've already made my recommendations, I don't think the solution to his problem is to try and beat MY list, it is to make his list more balanced. Although I do like scarabs, the change in the save to turbo boosting them has nerfed them to flamer weapons, and my list contains quite a few flamers.



Daneel2.0 said:


> You opponent looks to be playing a well balanced Eldar list (props aegius !).


thanks. :so_happy:



Daneel2.0 said:


> The reason that powerfists ignore living metal is because the FAQ says so :grin:
> 
> 
> It actually did matter, since they ruled that anything that was specifically directed against vehicles didn’t work, but anything that was a general augmentation was fine. I was giving you the 4th edition, reasoning behind the rule. Now that the powerfist is FAQed, the reasoning doesn’t matter anymore.
> ...


5th edition has cleared up rules for the witchblade. In 4th edition the witchblade tripled the wielders strength. The section in the 5th ed rule book states that it hits vehicles at str9. This is regardless of the strength of the wielder. Lets say for arguements sake that a wraithlord was able to wield a witchblade, it would actually strike the vehicle with a lower strength value than it normally does. The witchblade does not augment the users strength, it doesn't even use the wielders strength, so living metal doesn't even come into it.


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

aegius said:


> The maths here is a little irrelevant. He won't be facing an Avatar *or* a wraithlord(swordlord), he will be facing an Avatar*and* 2 wraithlords. If he does get the charge on 1 wraithlord or the Avatar, then he will be getting counter charged by the other 2 MCs.


Not if he's using Deceiver. He charges, and maybe kills off a Wraithlord, you charge back and he fades out of assault. On his next turn, he charges again.



aegius said:


> I agree with all the points you have made about his list, I've already made my recommendations, I don't think the solution to his problem is to try and beat MY list, it is to make his list more balanced. Although I do like scarabs, the change in the save to turbo boosting them has nerfed them to flamer weapons, and my list contains quite a few flamers.


They were always weak against flamers. But you're right, the fact that turbo-boost is now a cover save just makes it worse.



aegius said:


> 5th edition has cleared up rules for the witchblade. In 4th edition the witchblade tripled the wielders strength. The section in the 5th ed rule book states that it hits vehicles at str9. This is regardless of the strength of the wielder. Lets say for arguements sake that a wraithlord was able to wield a witchblade, it would actually strike the vehicle with a lower strength value than it normally does. The witchblade does not augment the users strength, it doesn't even use the wielders strength, so living metal doesn't even come into it.


I disagree, but I see your point. In absence of a FAQ to the contrary, and in light of the fact that nothing with strength higher that 9 can wield the sword, it's still and augmentation though and so still ineffective vs. living armor :grin:


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## Jackinator (Nov 18, 2008)

Can I just ask, are the Warlocks in HQ taken as a retinue for the farseer. Just I don't play Eldar and I haven't got the codex in front of me.


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## pez376 (Mar 24, 2009)

Hi Guys,

Many thanks for your comments, esp Daneel2.0 
I have taken most of it on board and also had a discussion about it with aegius.

Just to clarify I am not looking to try to beat his list, thats not really my game. What I am trying to do is make my list more balanced with regards to fighting eldar. The combo that aegius is sporting is in my opinion causes quite a quandary and is near unstoppable. Do I leave alone the 3x MC & concentrate on killing his troops and infantry (little folk) and let the 2x MC roam around causing mayhem. Or do I take out the 3x MC and after-wards face about 1000pts of fresh troops at turn 4+.
I accept that there is problems in my list which to a certain degree is also compounded due to the outbalance by the codex which requires revision to bring it into line with 5ed. But saying this the main reason of the post is purely down to how to effectively contain and fight eldar with a necron army. As I have been mauled a number of times with different opponents (not just aegius). I always had a problem with eldar and just needed some good old fashion advice. For which I am grateful 
After all as people have already quite rightly pointed out Aegius's list is very balanced and extremely efficient, and can effectively can take on all comers. (fighting in this sense 3x MC is a shock and awe tactic and in this case has worked and poses the problem how can it be counter effectively)? This is the main reason why I have sought advice from the floor, because I know someone, somewhere will have some ideas


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## Crimson_Chin (Feb 20, 2009)

I have never had a necron player tell me that I cannot use witchblades/SS against their monolith.

It is simply a weapon w/ a strength of 9 against vehicles; who is wielding it does not make any difference. The witchblade actually cannot be an augmentation, because it does not affect the user's strength whatsoever.

Rephrasing - An augmentation, by definition, is to increase or make something greater. The witchblade does not make something greater - it replaces it. Although this case results in an increase in the performance of the model holding the witchblade, it does not increase the strength of the model. It is identical to saying "the model holding the witchblade counts as being strength 1 against vehicles", except that the number has changed.

Just stating my 2 cents. I know I'm not gonna change your mind. And warlocks are not a retinue.


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

Jackinator said:


> Can I just ask, are the Warlocks in HQ taken as a retinue for the farseer. Just I don't play Eldar and I haven't got the codex in front of me.


That’s exactly right



pez376 said:


> Many thanks for your comments, esp Daneel2.0


You’re welcome :wink:



Jackinator said:


> Just to clarify I am not looking to try to beat his list, thats not really my game. What I am trying to do is make my list more balanced with regards to fighting eldar. The combo that aegius is sporting is in my opinion causes quite a quandary and is near unstoppable. Do I take out the 3x MC or concentrate on his little folk and let them roam around causing mayhem. Or do I take out the 3x MC then having to face the rest of the army at turn 4+.


Right, I understand. I hope that my advice was general enough that you can apply it to the skill of army building with Necrons – especially since I’ve avoided talking about aegius’ list in detail.

To the point, if I were doing it, I’d look to avoid CC with the MCs and destroy his transports (especially) and the weaker troops within. The MCs (as described) don’t offer much in the way or ranged fire power, making them a negligible ranged thread, but they remain a significant CC threat. If you are going to tackle them, my advice is use Deceiver. 

In cases of both kill point, and objective, shooting troops choices is a sound tactic. Shooting short units is also a good tactic. 



Crimson_Chin said:


> I have never had a necron player tell me that I cannot use witchblades/SS against their monolith.


I can’t comment on the quality of Necron players in your area, but in fourth edition for sure, and in fifth edition I think, witchblades don’t affect the Monolith.



Crimson_Chin said:


> It is simply a weapon w/ a strength of 9 against vehicles; who is wielding it does not make any difference. The witchblade actually cannot be an augmentation, because it does not affect the user's strength whatsoever.


At the least it replaces a user’s strength with it’s own, augmenting his ability to penetrate vehicle armor. This is a vehicle specific application of armor penetration which living armor is designed to combat. 



Crimson_Chin said:


> Rephrasing - An augmentation, by definition, is to increase or make something greater. The witchblade does not make something greater - it replaces it. Although this case results in an increase in the performance of the model holding the witchblade, it does not increase the strength of the model. It is identical to saying "the model holding the witchblade counts as being strength 1 against vehicles", except that the number has changed.


It replaces it with a greatly increased strength value, thus augmenting the penetration ability of the user. You’re getting hung up on “counts as”. Models on bikes “count as” having a toughness 1 higher, until instant death weapons get involved. Farseers, or warlocks, using witchblades “count as” having strength 9 until living armor gets involved. 



Crimson_Chin said:


> I know I'm not gonna change your mind.


Well, so far, my mind isn’t made up. I’m arguing for an interpretation based on previous understanding (which I have acknowledged may not still apply), against an individual (or 2 now) who feel that interpretation isn’t valid. If you can give me an argument good enough to make up my mind either way, I’ll let you know (but “counts as”, as I have already indicated isn’t going to do it) :grin:



Crimson_Chin said:


> And warlocks are not a retinue.


Yes, they are a retinue in all but name. 

“*Warlocks*: For each Farseer in the army, you may include a squad of 3-10 Warlocks (see entry below). This unit and the Farseer are a single HQ choice”[/b], pp. 60 Eldar Codex.


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## aegius (Mar 24, 2009)

Here is a list of stuff that the living metal rule affects:

weapons that make the armour value less than 14(so bright lances)
weapons that get additional armour penetration against vehicles(fusion guns and monsterous creatures)

These are the only things that affect living metal. witchblades do not affect the av of the monolith and do not roll any extra dice, so.............nope they still hit at str 9. You can argue semantics about pretty much any rule in the rulebook or in any codex, but the monolith rules are so well written that they pretty much tell you what effects monoliths and what doesn't.

tl;dr there is no rule that says that strength modifiers don't affect monoliths.


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

Sorry, you are incorrect. Which version of the Necron Codex are you reading? There are 2 remember :wink:

pp. 21 Necron Codex revision 2 "*Living Metal:* Attacks which count the target's Armour Value as being less than it really is (such as bright lances or blasters) do not do so against the Monolith. Similarly, weapons that get additional Armour Penetration dice (such as chainfists, monstrous creatures or melta weapons) do not get the extra dice against the Monolith. Ordnance weapons still roll 2d6 for Armour Penetration and select the highest score. In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its *unaugmented* strength and a single d6 no matter what."

Witchblade is augmentation (even if augmentation through replacement) and so doesn't work. It's not a semantic argument, but a substantive one.


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## aegius (Mar 24, 2009)

Daneel2.0 said:


> Sorry, you are incorrect. Which version of the Necron Codex are you reading? There are 2 remember :wink:
> 
> pp. 21 Necron Codex revision 2 "*Living Metal:* Attacks which count the target's Armour Value as being less than it really is (such as bright lances or blasters) do not do so against the Monolith. Similarly, weapons that get additional Armour Penetration dice (such as chainfists, monstrous creatures or melta weapons) do not get the extra dice against the Monolith. Ordnance weapons still roll 2d6 for Armour Penetration and select the highest score. In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its *unaugmented* strength and a single d6 no matter what."
> 
> Witchblade is augmentation (even if augmentation through replacement) and so doesn't work. It's not a semantic argument, but a substantive one.



The underlined part is not in my codex and is quite clearly a summary not a rule. The rest of the rule gives specific examples of weapons that will not affect the monolith. If it was the intent to use the users strength instead of the strength of the weapon, it would be clearly written as is the rest of the rule. something along the lines of 'weapons that augment the users strength such as powerfists and witchblades.'

I also just checked the necron faq to see the ruling. Although it is very lazily written, it is clear that any weapon that doubles strength etc will still get the stat.


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## BrotherR (Oct 10, 2008)

I have to agree with aeguis. that FAQ seems to allow for augmentation of strength as far as powerfists and claws so it seems witchblades could be used.


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

aegius said:


> The underlined part is not in my codex and is quite clearly a summary not a rule.


It is quite clearly not fluff and is quite clearly a part of the rule - even if a general statement of the rule's intent. 



aegius said:


> The rest of the rule gives specific examples of weapons that will not affect the monolith. If it was the intent to use the users strength instead of the strength of the weapon, it would be clearly written as is the rest of the rule. something along the lines of 'weapons that augment the users strength such as powerfists and witchblades.'


The reason it was included is there are too many weapons that fall into that category, and more could have been added with any Codex release or either of the main rule releases, which would have also been included. Including all of them by specific name would have been prohibitively long.



aegius said:


> I also just checked the necron faq to see the ruling. Although it is very lazily written, it is clear that any weapon that doubles strength etc will still get the stat.


Yes, I checked the FAQ before I defended this position as well, and has been mentioned several times, the Witchblade no longer doubles (or triples) the users strength. In addition, powerfists (and their analogs) aren't the same type of weapon as Witchblades (even if the x3 vs. vehicles had remained the same between editions). Witchblades treat vehicles and non-vehicles in a different manner, powerfists don't. 

Those two facts mean that, even though lazily written, a rule that is very specific to powerfists (and their analogs) doesn't apply to Witchblades.



BrotherR said:


> I have to agree with aeguis. that FAQ seems to allow for augmentation of strength as far as powerfists and claws so it seems witchblades could be used.


Doesn't hold, since they aren't the same weapon and don't act in the same way.


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## aegius (Mar 24, 2009)

To be honest this has gone on for too long and discussion should be moved to the rules forum. This isn't really helping poor old Pez to get any help with his list and tactics.


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## pez376 (Mar 24, 2009)

aegius said:


> To be honest this has gone on for too long and discussion should be moved to the rules forum. This isn't really helping poor old Pez to get any help with his list and tactics.


Don’t wory about me aegius  I have been finding this really informative tbh. I have checked out the codexes/FAQ/W40 rulebook 5ed. And I will admit, I do find it quite ambiguous regarding this. What makes it so for me is the FAQ, if it wasn’t for that then I would of voted No to the Witchblade getting S9. What I will do is contact GW helpline and get a definitive answer to this debate and post the result online ASAP.



Daneel2.0 said:


> Sorry, you are incorrect. Which version of the Necron Codex are you reading? There are 2 remember :wink:
> 
> pp. 21 Necron Codex revision 2 "*Living Metal:* Attacks which count the target's Armour Value as being less than it really is (such as bright lances or blasters) do not do so against the Monolith. Similarly, weapons that get additional Armour Penetration dice (such as chainfists, monstrous creatures or melta weapons) do not get the extra dice against the Monolith. Ordnance weapons still roll 2d6 for Armour Penetration and select the highest score. In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its *unaugmented* strength and a single d6 no matter what."
> 
> Witchblade is augmentation (even if augmentation through replacement) and so doesn't work. It's not a semantic argument, but a substantive one.





aegius said:


> The underlined part is not in my codex and is quite clearly a summary not a rule. The rest of the rule gives specific examples of weapons that will not affect the monolith. If it was the intent to use the users strength instead of the strength of the weapon, it would be clearly written as is the rest of the rule. something along the lines of 'weapons that augment the users strength such as powerfists and witchblades.'
> 
> I also just checked the necron faq to see the ruling. Although it is very lazily written, it is clear that any weapon that doubles strength etc will still get the stat.


Agreed the FAQ is very lazily written, minimum effort for maximum gain.

Daneel2.0 IS quite correct there was a revision of the Necron codex. I don’t think there is a great amount of difference between the two editions of the codexes. But this rule regarding living metal is definitely the most discussed. It seems that only ‘cron players are aware of the two editions lol. Even though I am not surprised. Anyway regarding the rule quoted by Daneel2.0 he is very much correct in his quote from the rulebook, underlined and all. This is NOT FAQ or a rule summary (sorry Steve/Aegius). It is clearly a rule. Luckily enough I have a copy of both editions of the codex. If you’re really bored but interested Aegius I could show you. (Knowing you as well as I do, I don’t think you want to lol).

To me personally it seems the original rule was there to counter Melta weapons and CC weapons have been caught out in an oversight hence the FAQ entry.

Once last thing with regarding this and also to help people starting to get stressed and hung up about the rules, remember the most important rule of W40K, as quoted on pg2 of the 5ed rulebook. (The most important rule then is that the rules aren't all that important! So long as both players agree, you can treat them as sacrosanct or mere guidelines - the choice is entirely yours).


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## pez376 (Mar 24, 2009)

OK guys, just for the record and this is from GW direct sales/helpline:

Witchblades DO get to attack at S9 against living metal.

The reason is, this is NOT an augmented weapon, this is just how hard it hits. (exactly the same reason why powerfists / claws get their attacks).

Brightlances, melta weapons, or abilities like tank hunter/rending DO NOT get the extra bonus because these are abilities that enhance the hit to vehicles or give bonus to penetrate the vehicle.

This was quoted straight from the Direct Sales team at GWHQ in nottingham.
To put it bluntly: Eldar was the original race to fight the necrons eons ago and therefore designed weapons back then to fight necrons. It could be explained that witchblades in particular was one of the weapons designed to take them out...

Hope this helps explain a few things. As a 'cron player I am upset  lol


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

pez376 said:


> OK guys, just for the record and this is from GW direct sales/helpline:
> 
> Witchblades DO get to attack at S9 against living metal.
> 
> ...


I had PHIL KELLY'S left foot say exactly the opposite.

Unfortunately asking any person who works at GW is about as relevant as spitting in your opponents eyes like an enraged cobra. It just doesn't make it through inspection.

To me, it sounds like living metal would stop the str9 from affecting it as it does with most bonuses used to harm it.


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> Unfortunately asking any person who works at GW is about as relevant as spitting in your opponents eyes like an enraged cobra. It just doesn't make it through inspection.


It's sad 'cause it's true :ireful2:.

The email rules answers (and previously the phone answers) people simply aren't very good. Their answers have no more standing than mine or yours or Joe's over on the corner, and are usually less well thought out.

If I could get an answer I would respect from that source, I'd have sent off for an answer before going to all the hassle of discussing it on this board, with people who at least I know can play the game.


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