# Monstrous Creatures in 6th random musings



## Lucian Kain (Jul 19, 2010)

Just dreaming about what the possibility of the rumoured "charge reaction shoot" in the new Rulebook and what it might mean for monstrous creatures with heavy weapons.What would it mean for the Nids...theres talk that thier codex was made with 6th in mind so perhaps we will see a noted boost to the monstrous creature special rules to reflect that and some of the hard (over)pricing in thier codex. 

Regardless of the hate for GK's I love the Nemesis Dreadknight and some of the conversion work that I've seen on coolminiornot.

The Gatling Scilencer might be worth its points compared to the other weapons if its strength is the determining factor between being able to Snapfire or not.Although I doubt it will.

Anyone else feel like talking garbage as we wait for 6th to roll in...


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

The only things I've noticed about Monstrous creatures was in the Necron codex. There are passages that reference Monstrous Creatures going to ground or being pinned. This is either an oversight or a prelude of things to come.


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## redmapa (Nov 9, 2011)

Monstrous creatures getting pinned, that'd be pretty lols, a daemon prince screaming "TAKE COVER!!!!" and dropping on the ground becausea ratling sniper shot him..HAHAHAHA!


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## Archaon18 (Feb 17, 2012)

I love it how GW are dropping random references to 6ed in the new codices. NB redmapa, Princes are fearless so unless this is changed nothing will happen in regards to them. HAHAHAHA'!!!!!!!


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## Lucian Kain (Jul 19, 2010)

Archon Dan said:


> The only things I've noticed about Monstrous creatures was in the Necron codex. There are passages that reference Monstrous Creatures going to ground or being pinned. This is either an oversight or a prelude of things to come.


I hope maybe going to ground but pinned not so much.

I wonder if MC's will get FNP standard to help illustrate thier size and resistance to small arms fire or thier disregard for it.

It would be good to hear more scraps on the MC side of things


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## Archaon18 (Feb 17, 2012)

With the 'stand and shoot' reaction, that would Nerf CC armies incredibly & make Tau nearly unassailable so I doubt they will include this.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

i believe it will be that if you pass an initiative test then your guys can shoot, so tau wont be too OP


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## kiro the avenger! (Nov 8, 2010)

I hope they ditch the monstrous creatures roll 2d6 for armour pen will be ditched- a huge dreadnought only rolls 1d6!


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

> I hope they ditch the monstrous creatures roll 2d6 for armour pen will be ditched- a huge dreadnought only rolls 1d6!


dosnt make sense  

i hope they keep the MC 2D6 armour pen, but give DCCW this aswell


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

The dreadnought strikes at strength 10, it doesn't need 2d6 armour penetration. Monstrous creatures typically have a strength of 6 to 8 (most 6) and so need that boost to reliably penetrate vehicles.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Also, dreadnought with chainfists get 2D6 armour penetration anyway.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> Also, dreadnought with chainfists get 2D6 armour penetration anyway.


So in other words Dreadnoughts never get 2d6 armor penetration.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

redmapa said:


> Monstrous creatures getting pinned, that'd be pretty lols, a daemon prince screaming "TAKE COVER!!!!" and dropping on the ground becausea ratling sniper shot him..HAHAHAHA!


It will likely be a voluntary thing. Also, my only MC, the Spyder is fearless, so even if they do it like that, I would not care.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> It will likely be a voluntary thing. Also, my only MC, the Spyder is fearless, so even if they do it like that, I would not care.


I'm thinking it's just an oversight... like maybe the Fabricator Claw Array could have been given to more then just the Spyder at one point, and they simply forgot to remove the text?

One thing I think would be cool is maybe allow MC to take armor saves vs other MCs.

Oh and maybe only allow 2d6 armor pen vs non-walker vehicles.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

Da Joka said:


> One thing I think would be cool is maybe allow MC to take armor saves vs other MCs.
> 
> I think that this should happen personally.
> 
> ...


thoughts in cyan


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

Hmmm maybe your right about the armor pen

But I just feel like Walkers should be able to go toe to toe with MCs a bit better.

Hopefully they will have hull points or something... it's a little unfair that MCs can one shot a Walker, but walkers can rarely kill an MC in one round of combat...


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Fallen said:


> thoughts in cyan


Are you saying Necrons have no Walkers? Or Necrons have no Monstrous Creatures? Because we have both.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> Are you saying Necrons have no Walkers? Or Necrons have no Monstrous Creatures? Because we have both.


The Necron Walker has Front AV of 13, most MC (witch are S6) wouldn't be able to hurt it at all unless it was penned from something else.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Ah yes, thats right. Walkers in assaults are hit on front AV.

Carry on.


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## redmapa (Nov 9, 2011)

They're called Monstrous Creatures, they're supposed to be better than most things on the tabletop, the way they are now is great except for the MCvsMC case which I agree with letting MC get a save when hit by othe MCs..


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

redmapa said:


> They're called Monstrous Creatures, they're supposed to be better than most things on the tabletop, the way they are now is great except for the MCvsMC case which I agree with letting MC get a save when hit by othe MCs..


True MCs are supposed to be better then most things. But some Armies don't get any. And most of those that don't get MCs get some kind of Close Combat Walker, aka Kans, Deff Dreads, and Dreadnoughts. I just think it's unfair that they get torn to shreds by MCs...

However in fluff, art work, and video games we see MCs going toe to toe with these kinds of Walkers. I think there has to be something they can do to make it a bit more of an even fight.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

the only thing i can think about with balancing MCs Vs Walkers would be to create a new vehicle type where MCs get just 1d6 AND 1d3 instead of 2d6.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

or you could just.....not assault MCs with your dreads....


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Man, I always see so many cool ideas in these what if threads about 6th ed. I just have the feeling that what GWS comes up with will be so much less fun and less affective than what the community has thought up.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

Ravner298 said:


> or you could just.....not assault MCs with your dreads....


Some times it's unavoidable.

Anywho Beast of War keeps calling 6th the cinematic edition... and I mean how cinematic is a giant monster fighting a guy in a giant robot??


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Da Joka said:


> Some times it's unavoidable.
> 
> Anywho Beast of War keeps calling 6th the cinematic edition... and I mean how cinematic is a giant monster fighting a guy in a giant robot??


i'm still hoping they just make all walkers into monstrous creatures and add in some cool MC rules.


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## Lucian Kain (Jul 19, 2010)

Oh well if nothing at least the AP on Close Combat weapons,and Hull Points will bring Monstrous Creatures in 6th up in power level as they usually have good saves or have access to them as upgrades.Sweeping advance and consolidating into assault the next enemy unit will change how we plan our deployment and spacing.
I guess thats quite big and probably big enough as far as bringing MC's back to the game.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

I don't know how to fix it, but Daemon Princes need to not suck anymore. Monstrous creatures need a resistance to poisoned attacks, such as the one the Necron Tomb Stalker had where it can only be wounded on 6s by poison. Also, in general, monstrous creatures need to have something to offset krak missiles and the like, i'm thinking a 5+ FNP as standard that they always get, regardless of AP or anything, because with the inability to gain cover easily, MCs can be downed by krak missiles and lascannons in a turn. Maybe call it a regeneration save or something.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Easy fix for MCs: all saves are invulnerable as well as armor saves. It wouldn't give them GREAT saves (making them killable, but not easilly so) but it'd give them a better chance of not getting nuked off the board to a large number of high strength low ap weapons.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

Zion said:


> Easy fix for MCs: all saves are invulnerable as well as armor saves. It wouldn't give them GREAT saves ya because 3++ is so bad.


oh how i would LOVE this, but it wont happen.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Fallen said:


> oh how i would LOVE this, but it wont happen.


I wasn't thinking so much of the 3++ (or 2++ that a Tyrannofex would get) but of the higher number armor saves when I said that. Either way it's not impossible to overcome low number saves by shooting a LOT into the MCs (as we do now anyways) and not relying on the high-powered weapons to kill them, just wound them more often.

So you know....it'd be more fluffy with large MCs that actually FEEL like they humongeous badasses they're supposed to be.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

mcmuffin said:


> I don't know how to fix it, but Daemon Princes need to not suck anymore. Monstrous creatures need a resistance to poisoned attacks, such as the one the Necron Tomb Stalker had where it can only be wounded on 6s by poison. Also, in general, monstrous creatures need to have something to offset krak missiles and the like, i'm thinking a 5+ FNP as standard that they always get, regardless of AP or anything, because with the inability to gain cover easily, MCs can be downed by krak missiles and lascannons in a turn. Maybe call it a regeneration save or something.





Zion said:


> Easy fix for MCs: all saves are invulnerable as well as armor saves. It wouldn't give them GREAT saves (making them killable, but not easilly so) but it'd give them a better chance of not getting nuked off the board to a large number of high strength low ap weapons.


I really like the poisoned resistance. And why not just give them a standard 5++? This wouldn't help some MCs who already have better, but it would help a lot.


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## oftenwrong (Mar 24, 2009)

It’d be nice if I could us WS to hit a rhino not just basing it off how far it moved.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

oftenwrong said:


> It’d be nice if I could us WS to hit a rhino not just basing it off how far it moved.


Only what would you compare it to? only Walkers have WS to check to see what you need to hit.

Plus I like auto hits when they don't move.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

After reading all the comments on this thread I must say:

It's funny that GW gets so much crap for its rule writing ability, yet, reading many of these comments just proves how terrible most people would be at balancing the game themselves.
*
Person 1 - "This isn't fair, my army can't do this, so rules should be changed!!!"

Person 2 - "Yeah, but your army can do other things, and gets benefits it other areas"

Person 1 - "La, la, la, la, not listening"
*

Seriously folks, that's all we need, for vehicles to be even tougher to take out.

Do, you have any idea how much it can suck playing Daemons? Land Raiders and AV13 Walkers can be an absolute pain, and can literally decide a game.

Plus, when you logically think about it, why can a monstrous creature not take out squads and vehicles?

Think of the size of Trygons or Swarmlords, or the power of Daemon Princes. They can reduce entire armies to pulp, yet in alot of ways they are incredibly fragile. If anything MC's need some buffs, not penalties.

For example, why can a hidden powerfist or claw constantly pop away at a MC, but he can't decide, "Hmmm, maybe I should kill that guy first".

And, for f*ck sake, don't get me started about how hidden powerfists/klaws/Force Sword can instant gib an expensive HQ unit.

*"We are Kharn the Betrayer, Lucius the Eternal, Typhus Herald of Nurgle, Fabius Bile, Huron Blackheart, veterans of a million campaigns, scourges of the Imperium, we cost the same amount as a single Troop Choice or Vehicle, and in some cases even more .... oh, we have just been splatted by captain no-name and his f*cking uber fist.

No wonder we can't break out of Cadia.

Well, at least Abaddon the Despoiler will lead us to victory, he has the blessings of the four God's of Chaos and is immune to Instant Death ... oh for f*ck sake ... he's fallen on his fricken sword again!

Back to the Eye lads, back to the Eye."
*


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## Lucian Kain (Jul 19, 2010)

Yes! substance instead of drivel.A few silly things said with out actually thinking about what that would mean for the game but meh.

I partially agree with being able to snipe hidden fists,I'd look more to the "Challenge" special rules to try and work that one out as opposed to straight up choosing who's dead next or an Initiative test,yea that sounds better.I would imagion soldiers fighting a large beast would try and take turns to hit the beast as its backs turned so its attention wouldn't always be on the highest threat so to speak but on the most courageous assailant who's just managed to piss it off and incur its wrath. 

So Initiative test to choose who gets stomped.That'd be cool.A more ponderous MC would generally have a lower Initiative than say an intelligent Daemon Prince or Hive Tyrant who wouldn't go for that rope-a-dope shit.


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## oftenwrong (Mar 24, 2009)

Da Joka said:


> Only what would you compare it to? only Walkers have WS to check to see what you need to hit.
> 
> Plus I like auto hits when they don't move.


Hey, I’m just saying that a nearly 300point bloodthirster with a max out WS, only opens a 35point speeding rhino about 50% of the time.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Here's simple idea. Change the woud chart to only wound 2 numbers up. Right now it wounds 3 ups (aka toughness 6 is wounded by str 4 and 3 on a six). Vehicles don't have this weakness. An armor 10 vehicle is only glanced on a 4 str and not a three. Plus on top of that, they get the glancing rule making those hits even weaker on top of bung unlikely. If we made this Chang. Toughness 6 mcs would be immune to lasguns, toughness 7 would be immune to bolters and toughness 8 would be immune to tau pulse. Additionally, against an mc, if you have to roll a 6 to wound it should get a fnp save too to mimic the effect of a glancing hit. That would level the playing field between mcs and vehicles.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

It could be cinematic Christopher Nolan, or it could be cinematic Michael Bay/Uwe Boller.

The wound chart is likely to turn into fantasy, where you have a soft, rather than hard counter system - you can always wound on a 6.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> Seriously folks, that's all we need, for vehicles to be even tougher to take out.
> 
> Do, you have any idea how much it can suck playing Daemons? Land Raiders and AV13 Walkers can be an absolute pain, and can literally decide a game.


First time I played a Deamon Player it I had 2 Battlewagons, and a bunch of Kans he blew them all up with no problem. I just think it's dumb that Vehicles can be taken down with one shot, when it takes a several shots to kill an MC.



D-A-C said:


> Plus, when you logically think about it, why can a monstrous creature not take out squads and vehicles?
> 
> Think of the size of Trygons or Swarmlords, or the power of Daemon Princes. They can reduce entire armies to pulp, yet in alot of ways they are incredibly fragile. If anything MC's need some buffs, not penalties.
> 
> ...


In around 20 games vs Tyranids I have never once beaten them (old dex, and new dex), Largely in part due to their MCs. Most of those games where with Orks, and IMO Nids outclass Orks in almost every way. The "hidden powerklaws" where the only thing able to actually take them down in my games. If the rumors are true is already taking a big enough hit for me to quite playing Orks all together... Wounds must be on take on the front line, random charges, stand and shoot... being able to pick out a non-IC would be the finial nail in the coffin.

Walkers (and other vehicles) need to have a chance to stand against an MC in CC.
MCs need some help getting to CC, and once their in there they need some help vs mass Power Weapons.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Da Joka said:


> First time I played a Deamon Player it I had 2 Battlewagons, and a bunch of Kans he blew them all up with no problem. I just think it's dumb that Vehicles can be taken down with one shot, when it takes a several shots to kill an MC.


What the hell did he easily take them down with? Its AV 14, Bolt is Strength 8, and Screamers are unreliable if the vehicle has moved, Soul Grinders are only BS 3 and people rarely take 'Tongue' anyway, so all that leaves is Daemon Princes. 

Plus, thinkings its dumb vehicles get killed in one shot doesn't make it so. There are three rolls needed to killa vehicle:

1. Hit it 
2. Pentrate it. 
3. 5 or 6 on the Chart

Its not that likely in alot of cases. Plus MC's can be killed by anything. Vehicles don't have to worry about standrad weapons like boltguns, lasguns, splinter rifles etc, MC's do. Anything can wound them. Its specialist weapons that take out vehicles.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Vaz said:


> It could be cinematic Christopher Nolan, or it could be cinematic Michael Bay/Uwe Boller.
> 
> The wound chart is likely to turn into fantasy, where you have a soft, rather than hard counter system - you can always wound on a 6.


That part of Fantasy I do not want implemented. The only reason for me to take a Wraithlord nowadays is to walk it into S4 or less squads and go "LOL! U can't scratch me! Now DIE!!!!"


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## oftenwrong (Mar 24, 2009)

The poor battlewagon is only 10 on the rear and open top to boot. even Bloodletters can wreck it. Pretty sure red paint let them move 7” and act like they move only 6” but requiring 6+ to hit in cc, though.


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