# CSM and the 'leaked' 6th Ed



## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

So, to keep the train chugging along. For now, let's disregard the question of the authenticity of the pdf and treat is as at least an early version of whyat we'll be getting in a few months. 

How do you think it will affect the CSM codex, as it exists now?

-Daemon Princes: After taking a hit on their psychic powers in the last FAQ, the princes get a mixed situation. They apparently go to S10 due to monstrous CCW, and when upgraded with wings, become flying troops that finally get to ignore dangerous terrain. On the other hand, their EV is going to be so low that even the average ork will hit it more often than not, and their Toughness/save may not be quite enough to compensate. Their WS of 7 also means a bit more in the new CC table.

-Greater Daemon: These guys may just have become more viable. Sadly they are not winged, but they benefit from most of the buffs the DP got and having never been psykers, dodge many of the nerfs. They are also cheaper, and helped by the new reserves rules.

-Khorne Berserkers: Assaulting out of rhinos that moves 6" of less if huge. It's not theoretically possible to charge 3 rhinos full of world eaters 12" ahead, smoke them to weather the incoming fire, then move 6" before disembarking the zerks and still charge 6". 

-Plague Marines: Tiny hit, since FNP is now cancelled by AP3. 

-Havocs: Now that vehicles with firing ports grant relentless to the passengers, a Daemonic-possessed rhino can actually make for a good, -mobile- fire base for havocs. Not sure if the price will be worth it, but it's an option.

-Noise Marines: Same thing as above. A blasmaster fired on the move from a rhino is like having a more fragile, smaller-blast Leman Russ chugging along the field, tossing metal AP3 death around. 

-HQs: Power Fists being coarse is a -big- relief for T4 HQs when facing nameless sargeants with oversized hands. Now they need to fear snipers and fellow ICs, but that at least lends to better planning (it makes sense that the enemy would try to snipe bigshots) and more epic duels between opposing heroes instead of trying to shield your own until sargeant Punkbottom brings his power fist to bear. 

-Chaos Land Raider: As an AV 14 tank, it now becomes a rather good shooting platform. If it stays still, it can put out horrendous volumes of lascannon and Heavy Bolter fire, while at the same time being very vulnerable to return fire. 

Anything else you have spotted?


----------



## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Actually, given the proliferation of Missile Launchers, which previously they got FnP against, now insta-kill. A massive change for Plague Marines, and a hurtful one since they were soooo clearly the best Troop in the Codex, and indeed one of the best in the game.

As for Chaos Land Raiders - they have that firepower now, and will still be as vulnerable to Melta Penetrating it, if not asploding it so much. Still inferior to the alternatives by a significant margin - if anything, worse, since Havocs are now definitively better, Oblits are no worse, and Predators and Defiler both improved.

Also, unless I missed it somewhere, ICs are still a different unit in CC, so Fists still punk them.


----------



## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

> -HQs: Power Fists being coarse is a -big- relief for T4 HQs when facing nameless sargeants with oversized hands. Now they need to fear snipers and fellow ICs, but that at least lends to better planning (it makes sense that the enemy would try to snipe bigshots) and more epic duels between opposing heroes instead of trying to shield your own until sargeant Punkbottom brings his power fist to bear.


Power Fists are _coarse_ now. I don't see your point. Although since ICs and squad leaders get directed hits in CC that PF won't be around to swing if it's in B2B.


----------



## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

TheKingElessar said:


> Actually, given the proliferation of Missile Launchers, which previously they got FnP against, now insta-kill.


I always thought they already insta-killed plafues, since FNP does not work against attacks able to cause ID.


----------



## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

For some reason, I was thinking they were T5, not T4(5). I have no idea why. Curious. My bad.


----------



## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

TheKingElessar said:


> For some reason, I was thinking they were T5, not T4(5). I have no idea why. Curious. My bad.


I know what you mean. But no, T5 is for guys riding wolves, not those who sold their souls to the very god of decay and filth!


----------



## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

Sephyr said:


> -Daemon Princes: They apparently go to S10 due to monstrous CCW


What? They are AP2 and roll 2d6 for armor..just like now.



> -Havocs: Now that vehicles with firing ports grant relentless to the passengers, a Daemonic-possessed rhino can actually make for a good, -mobile- fire base for havocs.


Well two Havocs at least...




> -Chaos Land Raider: As an AV 14 tank, it now becomes a rather good shooting platform. If it stays still, it can put out horrendous volumes of lascannon and Heavy Bolter fire, while at the same time being very vulnerable to return fire.


It cannot fire the same weapon twice so it puts out exactly the same amount of fire as it does now.


----------



## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

DeathKlokk said:


> What? They are AP2 and roll 2d6 for armor..just like now.


Page 93 of the PDF places the Strength of the MCCW at 2S. May be moot since no unit is described as specifically carrying one (though I guess it is stated somewhere that all MCs have them). If true, Daemon Princes, Greater Daemons, and other big guys that were left behind with S5 or S6 may become ID-dealing machines.


----------



## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

I haven't seen anywhere that lists anything as having a MCCW.


----------



## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I *think* it states somewhere that MCs are now equipped with one as standard.


----------



## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

Not under the rules for MCs it doesn't.


----------



## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I'll defer - I can't recall whether I read it or imagined it. No surprise if it's in the wrong place though.


----------



## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

DeathKlokk said:


> Not under the rules for MCs it doesn't.


Ypu are half-correct. It doesn't state that MC's have MCCWs, but it gives them the rule 'Monstrous'. Which does state that they *always* have a MCCW, right there on page 101. Hooray for confusing layouts!


----------



## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

huh, then it goes on to explain that a MCCW gives them AP2 and 2dp Armor pen. Looks like the 2S thing may have changed and not gotten edited. Or they are both abilities of MCs?

This thing is too poorly laid out to tell. We'll see in July. Or....not? [/Jack Palance voice]


----------



## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Maybe they have both S10 AND 2d6 Pen? Stupider rules exist.


----------



## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

TheKingElessar said:


> Maybe they have both S10 AND 2d6 Pen? Stupider rules exist.


If so, it makes the Eldar Wraithlord the standard for MC offense, meaning that no vehicle is safe with one around..

I'm curious about the other rules/units, though. I haven't been able to parse many of the changes due to lack of time. Are Chaos Predators viable in the leaked rules? Are Khorne Berserkers still excelling at CC now that the shooting/assault order has changed? Chaos dreads going bonkers and fleeting 16 inches to charge change their usefulness?


----------



## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Au contraire - Wraithlords ALREADY get that, so they're comparatively worse - and they're already one of the weaker MCs in the game.

Chaos Dreads would be better with a 16" Charge, yeah. Except, ofc, that they're Rage'd too. Mixed bag - but they can only see what they can shoot, which makes it awkward.


----------



## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

MCs being str10? I sure hope that's as false as changing the turn sequence, and the evasion stat.


----------



## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

If they were making MCs S10, then Spyders would be. It would make Wraithlords obsolete[r], as stated, and it would remove any purpose to the Dreadknight DCCW option.


----------



## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

I meant standard as in "everybody is at least this strong". Yes, the Wraithlord himself will be a bit hosed, though it's still differentiated by being a weapon platform with very high T, though now it's even more of an easy target.

And yeah, the Dreadnight CCW loses its function, which is abit odd...but then again, they voided the Daemonbane rule in the leaked FAQ. Can't make an omelette without making some stuff obsolete.


----------



## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

True - but I think Wraithlords are already laughably bad, not least because they have such difficulty claiming Cover. If the best Cover they'd get would be a 5+ instead of 4+...honestly, they'd need to drop about 50 points, at LEAST.


----------



## Cheexsta (Mar 18, 2011)

I posted this on another forum...no point typing it out again  Most of it is in regards to Khorne, as that is my army of choice, but a lot should apply to Chaos in general. I got a couple of things wrong, though, so I'll edit those with red.



Cheexsta said:


> Also, just because no one has brought it up yet, CSM have gotten a couple of nice little bonuses out of this update:
> Chaos Dreadnoughts no longer run off and do their own thing. Blood Frenzy gives them Fleet and Rage, which makes them much more controllable as you only have to charge the enemy if they're within 12" and you fail a Morale test (ability) on Ld10 (because it's a vehicle with Fearless (2) - see pp41 & 103) - the only disadvantage is that they cannot perform Stationary actions, but their Relentless ability allows them to still fire heavy weapons (see p73). So, all you have to do is declare that they are moving Combat speed and move them 0" if you don't want to get into combat, and you're allowed to just keep shooting. Or you could just perform a 16" Charge move.
> 
> Fire Frenzy got significantly better, allowing the Dreadnought to fire their weapons twice at any target they like, but they can't perform Charge or Run moves. So, you can still make a normal Combat speed move, or if you want to get into assault you can still do an Engage move. Or if you do want to shoot, you can still move at Combat speed to get into a better position. Shooty Chaos Dreadnoughts sitting on your back line might actually be the new "thing" for Chaos.
> ...





Cheexsta said:


> Ooh, another nice little thing: Kharn the Betrayer hits all vehicles on 2+ again, as they have the Intractable rule and therefore either have WS0 or WS10 depending on whether they move or not. They have a weapon skill, therefore can be hit by Kharn on a 2+
> 
> Edit: hey, cool - Furious Charge increases the strength value of the charging model's primary weapon. This makes plasma pistols in Berzerker squads really awesome: you'll get 2 attacks per model with the pistol, striking at S8 and with Rending. Great for hitting vehicles and getting some instant death on characters and might actually make plasma pistols a useful choice in other units, too.


----------



## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

And the fact that Kharn hits vehicles on 2+ SCREAMS fake to me.


----------



## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

He used to before they FAQed it, in fact Kharn used to hit everything on a 2+ for most of the life of the new CSM codex. So if that part is what hits you as odd then you seem to be missing the real insane and unprecedented changes this leak talks about.


----------



## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

No, it's just something I forgot to mention in my blog post on the subject...


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Has something major changed since I've been away, new rulebook, new codex? I'm quite confused heh.


----------



## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Has something major changed since I've been away, new rulebook, new codex? I'm quite confused heh.


A 'leak' of a supposed 6e ruleset. Many believe it was an early playtest copy, which for me doesn't explain the German words and numerous other things wrong with it. I think it's just a total fabrication, because I could create such a document in a surprisingly short time if motivated sufficiently.


----------



## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Has something major changed since I've been away, new rulebook, new codex? I'm quite confused heh.


A 6th edition rule book has been "leaked" though the community is somewhat divided on its authenticity. It has some major game changes and odd rules tightening that makes the game quite interesting.

To get back on topic, I think the coming Chaos dex will see broad changes to things like cult troops. 

I do hope that iccon / cult bonuses are solid bonuses ie: Nurgle becomes a solid +1 T bonus and not the 4(5) shenanigans its is now, Khorne would hopefully be +1 WS, Slaneesh would be +1 BS and Tzeentch would be the 5++ save or reroll based etc, this will help compensate the ap3 rule to fnp (which frankly screams of fanboy rage against BA's priest spam), and change to the CC to hit table (which seems an attempt to make ws3 armies cc viable) as well as theme armies into particular builds: hurtles tough, khorne fights etc. Priced right, it would mean vanilla CSM's could be the attrition force.

But here's hoping, you just cant tell whats coming these days: I wouldn't be surprised if another board game based off imperial bureaucracy came out next month, where the aim of the game is to make playing it so confusing people can't actually play it.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Can't wait then  may finally get the motivation back in me to finish painting my khorne army.


----------



## Usaal (Apr 9, 2008)

I said:


> do hope that iccon / cult bonuses are solid bonuses ie: Nurgle becomes a solid +1 T bonus and not the 4(5) shenanigans its is now, Khorne would hopefully be +1 WS, Slaneesh would be +1 BS and Tzeentch would be the 5++ save or reroll based


I would hope that Slaanesh would not get a +1BS skill, the point that I play them for (apart from Sonic weapons) is the +1 Int, I love being able to swing before loylest marines, and generally with more attacks thanks to the loadout with pistols and CC weapons for everyone on top of my bolter/sonicblaster.


----------



## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Agreed, +1I is an incentive for me to finally build the Emperor's Children force I'd love to have.

I'd also rather see Khorne be +1S than WS.


----------



## thefallen (Sep 21, 2011)

I think korn is fine the way they are. I mean they already get +1 attack just for being korn then add furious charge. That already makes them CC monsters. I would like the option to take good special weapons like hand flamers and infernus pistols or even a melta gun.


----------



## Azrell (Jul 16, 2010)

Sephyr said:


> Ypu are half-correct. It doesn't state that MC's have MCCWs, but it gives them the rule 'Monstrous'. Which does state that they *always* have a MCCW, right there on page 101. Hooray for confusing layouts!


Confusing layouts... half formed rules... rules sliced up and pieced out all over a rulebook...

yep its made by GW alright.


----------



## Azrell (Jul 16, 2010)

TheKingElessar said:


> And the fact that Kharn hits vehicles on 2+ SCREAMS fake to me.


I think most things are lucky that Karn allows them a 16.5% change not to get hit. 0o If only because one of his own guys looks like he deserves it more.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Kharn tends to impale himself on tanks so he can destroy them quicker


----------

