# The Juice of Life... or Death: DE Army Dynamic Paradox



## Skari (Dec 20, 2011)

Ok so I have been pondering some of the basic aspects of the Dark Eldar book. Now that it has been out for more than a year and it seems like the interwebz has got its grips on what is considered to be "the best". The wonderful thing about the DE book is that there is no set best of the best build... the closest to this being the venom spam. Now, we all know that venoms kill things and they do it well. This is the topic that I wish to put forward to all of you fellow Kabalites. We are not squeezing the juice from the codex, I feel that having the tanks kill the infantry and the infantry kill the tanks (other than ravagers) poses a sort of paradox for the army. All those juicy pain tokens are just getting wasted and I believe that the true power of the DE codex will be realized when full advantage is taken of every aspect of the book and the various rules within it. 
So, with this in mind, tactically how do you deal with pain tokens, do you even care? Do you only want the FNP? Looking for others input as to what you would do to your army to try and keep the same infantry killing potential but at the same time not waste infantry at killing tanks. 

Cheers


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I disagree. Massed poisoned weaponry brings down MCs easily for quick Pain Tokens, and it scythes through infantry too. Venoms are good for bringing down squads to just two or three members, and then use infantry to kill the survivors (and get the Pain Token), and the best anti-tank in the army is, in my opinion, the Ravager.

Midnight


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## Skari (Dec 20, 2011)

True, this is what you would expect. A few venoms to soften up the army, larger units to take advantage of the depleted squads and gain pain tokens, and things like ravagers taking out tanks. 

But what we so see are small warrior units with blasters, and trueborn with blasters. Taking out the tanks to then have the venoms mow them down.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

it depends on the army im building.

I have my paper airplane lists, which are venom warriors, Raider trueborn, and ravagers.

then I have my WWP lists which have almost no vehicles.


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

Pain tokens are useful. But it all depends on what you are up against and what units you field.
Whyches and Incubi loves them and can get them easy enough so you don't have to jump through hoops to get them. Kabalites in Venoms die to everything so they don't care (and rarely get them). Kabalites in raiders like pain tokens and can easily get them if you play smart. But more often than not, the acquisition of pain tokens is a bonus you get for playing smart and is never something you should work for or expect.


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## Tatsumaki (Oct 22, 2009)

Has nobody done a Carnival of Flesh list yet? As in, Haemonculus with WWP and massed units of Wracks/Grotesques? I know that Grotesques showing up in a WWP in the middle of the field would make me pay attention, and the poisoned hand weapons give the Wracks a fairly good chance of taking out most targets, especially if they got Furious Charge.

It seems to be mostly Wyches that show up against me in this manner. Unfortunately, with Tau and a crappy 4 x 4 table, there's not an awful lot i can do about that..


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## Skari (Dec 20, 2011)

But why not work for them? Fearless, furious charging, feel no pain? I think these are all things that really help the DE who IMO is the only army who can really buff up and get better as the game goes on.

Grotesques are awesome. I use them as a WWP delivery unit with my heamy.


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

I think its just a preference thing, i use a WWP list with Incubi, Wracks etc so i love my tokens but honestly i just pick them up as i go along instead of going out my way to get them. And i do see the point of the rest of this thread


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## kavyanshrike (Sep 10, 2011)

Skari said:


> But why not work for them? Fearless, furious charging, feel no pain? I think these are all things that really help the DE who IMO is the only army who can really buff up and get better as the game goes on.
> 
> Grotesques are awesome. I use them as a WWP delivery unit with my heamy.


that may not be as good as you get a unit which makes the enemy really scared of and they will put a lot more into killing it and yes grotesques are amazing but they will get a lot of poisoned weaponry or a dreadnought, as said previously you shouldn't base your game plan around pain tokens they are just a bonus also there has been carnival of flesh lists.


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## Skari (Dec 20, 2011)

I found that the biggest thing about the old book was that a units effectiveness severely decreased in performance as the game went on because of the depleted numbers, I believe that the pain tokens allow DE to become more of a contender mid-late game and actually deal better in any sort of attrition.


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## kavyanshrike (Sep 10, 2011)

They deal better in wars of attrition but they still aren't good at it unless you go for carnival of flesh as normal stuff just isn't that tough


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## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH (Apr 17, 2009)

kavyanshrike said:


> They deal better in wars of attrition but they still aren't good at it unless you go for carnival of flesh as normal stuff just isn't that tough


This.

If you're playing attrition with DE you're doing it wrong. Hell, even the carnival of flesh list don't do that. When I play that, I speed up the table, drop a WWP from which brutal things start emerging. Brutal things those finest job to do is to hit hard and leave none alive.

There's not much attrition about that. It's more like an alphastrike army than anything else. And in this army you don't need to work for those tokens either seeing as most units begin the game with the most important one and they'll naturally accumulate more as the game goes on. And if they don't, then that's because you aren't in H2H. In which case, you're doing it wrong.


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## kavyanshrike (Sep 10, 2011)

AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH said:


> This.
> 
> If you're playing attrition with DE you're doing it wrong. Hell, even the carnival of flesh list don't do that. When I play that, I speed up the table, drop a WWP from which brutal things start emerging. Brutal things those finest job to do is to hit hard and leave none alive.
> 
> There's not much attrition about that. It's more like an alphastrike army than anything else. And in this army you don't need to work for those tokens either seeing as most units begin the game with the most important one and they'll naturally accumulate more as the game goes on. And if they don't, then that's because you aren't in H2H. In which case, you're doing it wrong.


Very one sided attrition?


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## Tatsumaki (Oct 22, 2009)

I think that Carnival of Flesh can do attrition, it's just as AAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGHH said. If you're doing attrition, don't walk them up the board.

Just because Wracks are very good at surviving doesn't mean they should have to walk the whole way, why deny the number one advantage that DE have, mobility?

Once they DO get into combat, then it becomes a war of attrition, because Guardsmen, most Eldar (And Dark Eldar), Space Marines, Necrons, Tau and even some Tyranids will be hard-pressed to destroy you in combat, and even if you don't hit as hard as Wyches you can win simply by staying in combat turn by turn.

Mind you, if the eney happens to have Genestealers, Howling Banshees, etc, you may need to have a plan B. So the Carnival of Flesh needs some support in the form of Incubi, Razorwings, Ravagers, or some other kind of hard-hitting shooting to make sure the Wracks and other monstrousities aren't wiped off the board. It would be a fairly hard list to put together, but I'm confident it would have a lot of hitting power. Maybe bring that character who makes your Wracks a troop choice?


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## Skari (Dec 20, 2011)

I did not mean "play a war of attrition". I mean that later in the game pain tokens become paramount in safeguarding your units and the mission. FNP is very good to have, FC then helps later in the game, and finally fearless, fantastic to never run off objectives at the end game.


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## kavyanshrike (Sep 10, 2011)

Skari said:


> I did not mean "play a war of attrition". I mean that later in the game pain tokens become paramount in safeguarding your units and the mission. FNP is very good to have, FC then helps later in the game, and finally fearless, fantastic to never run off objectives at the end game.


yes but by that point your units would be severely depleted also most units holding objectives wouldn't get many pain tokens


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## Skari (Dec 20, 2011)

True, but one fearless model is still more reliable at the end game than 10 non fearless models at taking an objective. (he will never run)... might die, but never run .


Basically thinking that the true use of things like venoms should be the reduction of squad sizes so that the units that can really use the tokens can gain them easily.


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## Tatsumaki (Oct 22, 2009)

Actually I saw some good advice on another post. Why not switch out Archons with Haemonculi, put them in with Wyches, then let them run off with his pain token when they inevitably split up. The Haemonculus protects the girls with his Liquifier, and the girls make it to combat with Feel No Pain.

Here is the link, really good stuff: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?&p=1129787#post1129787

I would totally consider his advice. Variety is the spice of death .D


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