# Daemons - Flesh Hounds vs Seekers?



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey everyone.

I'm getting together my 1000pts Chaos Daemon Army and I definately want to include one Fast Attack but I'm torn between a unit of Flesh Hounds + Karanak or a unit of seekers.

Basically:

*4 Flesh Hounds + Karanak = 110pts* and contains T4 I4 S5 A2 models, that have Furious Charge and Blessing of the Blood God (2+ Psychic Wound Save) and because of Karanak ignore cover, and he has 3 Rending Attacks

or
*
6 Seekers of Slaanesh, Transfixing Gaze = 107pts* and contains T3 I6 S3 A4 models that have Assault and Defensive grenades, Rending Attacks and can deny a single enemy model an Attack (Transfixing Gaze, and as my main opponent is a Monstrous Creature Tyranid player, that denial of a single Attack can be good vs. MC's)


So there you have it folks, which do you think is better, Hounds or Seekers?

I want your opinions of both the units in general and which you think would be better for this list. Thanks.

Here is my current 1000pts list:


1000pts Chaos Daemons Army (879pts)

*HQ*

Skulltaker on a Chariot – 160pts


*ELITES*

Bloodcrusher of Khorne, Fury of Khorne, 50pts

Bloodcrusher of Khorne, Fury of Khorne, 50pts


*TROOPS*

8 Bloodletters of Khorne – 128pts 

8 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch + Changeling, Bolt of Tzeentch, Instrument of Chaos, – 173pts

12 Daemonettes of Slaanesh, – 168pts


*FAST ATTACK*





*HEAVY SUPPORT*

Daemon Prince, Mark of Nurgle, Cloud of Flies, Noxious Touch, Instrument of Chaos, Aura of Decay – 150pts


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## Midge913 (Oct 21, 2010)

I am going to go with the seekers. Yes the strength and toughness is lower, but they have a better initiative value, twice the amount of attacks with Rending and they have grenades allowing you to deal with units in cover which is something that the Daemons lack. 

My only other comment on your list is that your Crushers are illegal as equipped. A model may not have more than one of the options available to it. Combine them as a squad and drop one of each of the options and you are legal, and up 15 points.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Midge913 said:


> I am going to go with the seekers. Yes the strength and toughness is lower, but they have a better initiative value, twice the amount of attacks with Rending and they have grenades allowing you to deal with units in cover which is something that the Daemons lack.
> 
> My only other comment on your list is that your Crushers are illegal as equipped. A model may not have more than one of the options available to it. Combine them as a squad and drop one of each of the options and you are legal, and up 15 points.


Well spotted .... whoops!!!

The reason I'm using them like that is I'm going to buy a single pack of 3 in order to get a Bloodcrusher for Skulltakers Chariot and so have two left over.

And I just feel they would be a great distraction unit.

Don't forget though that Hounds with Karanak ignore cover as well.

Usually with questions like this I lean one way or another and just want some confirmation online, but with this I'm really really torn as I love both units to honest.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> Don't forget though that Hounds with Karanak ignore cover as well.


Karanak doesn't do that so if you're going to take one of those take the seekers as they have grenades. 

Also Single Crushers are rubbish but I think I mentioned that before, so carry on.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> Karanak doesn't do that so if you're going to take one of those take the seekers as they have grenades.
> 
> Also Single Crushers are rubbish but I think I mentioned that before, so carry on.


'While Karank is alive the entire unit benefits from the Move Through Cover Special Rule'.

So it seems he does do that :rtfm: .

I just don't see how x2 Bloodcrushers is going to help, individually it means the enemy has to split fire, although they do it pretty weak, but they have a smaller deepstrike footprint, and can be used to absord fire and tangle up a unit or two (hopefully).

That's my thinking anyway, am I wrong?


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Karanak does not ignore cover, he gives you the Move through Cover special rule. Seekers however have grenades. 

Split up the Crushers cannot land together, or even at the same time really mean you are splitting your fire for your opponent. Yes he has to shoot two units, but you also have to land and use 2 units. Also 2 Crushers need to take 3 wounds before one dies.


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## deviant_cadaver (Sep 6, 2008)

Move through cover is roll 3 for difficult terrain (pick the highest. This is different then assault grenades that let you fight at I when assaulting in to cover. 

1000 pts game are a different beast then most people play. A single crusher may be able to holds its own a lot of people forget that. However if you wanted a really tough unit, put the crushers together and switch the skull taker to a jug and put him in too. 

The reason crushers together are so much stronger is wound allocation. A basic example is 10 marines shoot at a crusher it deals 2 wounds killing it leaving your lone crusher to charge he kills say 3 then they attack back and kill him. Now if we put them together and you give 1 Fury of Khorne the same 10 and shoot deal 2 wounds you put one on the normal guy and one on the fury. Then when you charge that's 6 dead leaving not enough left to kill you on the attack back.

This gets even stronger the more models in it that can wound allocate.

As to your original question by looking at the rest of your army i would go with the seeker. More so if you put the crushers together. it will give you more anti troop. Try and keep them away from MC though. it might seem like a good idea but you will not be able to wound some of them. it depends on there T. Flesh hounds just do not live up to what they should do and even if i do take them I would not waste pts on Karanak.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

It depends on your army list- I would never take seekers over fiends except for if I want to be able to charge into cover. For the same reasoning if you are looking at flesh hounds then I would say the same- use fiends. If you dont have the elite slots for fiends andhave plenty of models in your army capable of dealing with enemies in cover then use the hounds... otherwise take the seekers.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Thanks for the help so far guys +rep on the way.

Is this list any better?


1000pts Chaos Daemons Army (991pts) (38 Models)

*HQ*

Skulltaker on a Juggernaut – 175pts


*ELITES*

2 Bloodcrushers of Khorne, Fury of Khorne, 90pts


*TROOPS*

8 Bloodletters of Khorne – 128pts 

8 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch + Changeling, Bolt of Tzeentch, Instrument of Chaos, – 173pts

12 Daemonettes of Slaanesh, – 168pts


*FAST ATTACK*

6 Seekers of Slaanesh, Transfixing Gaze – 107pts 


*HEAVY SUPPORT*

Daemon Prince, Mark of Nurgle, Cloud of Flies, Noxious Touch, Instrument of Chaos, Aura of Decay – 150pts



A few Questions:

1. Are Flesh Hounds ever viable? By that, I mean at around 1500-2000pts would a unit of 7 + Karanak (8 Total) be useless? Or are they somewhat viable?

2. At 1000pts would I be better dropping Skulltaker for - *Herald of Khorne, Juggernaut, Unholy Might, Fury of Khorne - 130pts* thereby saving me 45pts to spend elsewhere? It's not like I'm going to be seeing loads of MC's or Special Characters anyway, and a Herald + the 2 Bloodcrushers is very tough.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

The problem with Flesh Hounds and the Daemons FA in general is their purpose. They're both Caravlry so you want to be moving fast with them taking out isolated targets. Going deep into the enemy section after things like Long Fangs etc. Long fangs will always be in cover and neither Seekers nor Flesh Hounds can really take a hit. But Seekers have grenades and Rending making them better in all cases. 

Flesh hounds just don't have a role as such. Theres nothing they do paticualrly well. Buy them if you have all your other bases covered. That means you have your Fiends and Daemons Princes already on board. Then you can spunk some points on Flesh Hounds, although you'd still be better with Seekers or Screamers. 

It also depends largely on the terrain you play with as neither Seekers nor Flesh Hounds can go into the 2nd floor of a building.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Any more opinions on which is better when taken into isolation (ignore my list and just compare the two units)?

Basically it seems Hounds are just a whole load of suck, but then again T4 S5 (on the charge) A3 can't be all bad, for 2 points cheaper than a seeker.

I think personally they should have been 16pts and been given Power Weapons or ignore armour rules, and stay the same everywhere else.


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## deviant_cadaver (Sep 6, 2008)

I would never take flesh hounds personal The just die to fast. At least seekers can take out hoards of troops. Honestly when I spend points on something I ask how many crushers can I buy for these points and is it worth it not to have them instead. If you are not finding skulltaker useful then id say go ahead and swap him for a herald. 

If you can I would really try and up the number of blood letters you have maybe dropping instruments do do so. I would try to take them around 12 so there is something left of them to assault.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Flesh hounds are great if you play enemies that use *tactics*... if all you do is throw modles on the field and bash them forward till one side dies (as I see so many players doing).
If however your opponent starts trying to outmanouver you, especially if they are using fast transports then crushers will be left in the smoke doing feck all... meanwhile flesh hounds are fast enough to catch those transports and are then able to rip them apart.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> Flesh hounds are great if you play enemies that use *tactics*... if all you do is throw modles on the field and bash them forward till one side dies (as I see so many players doing).
> If however your opponent starts trying to outmanouver you, especially if they are using fast transports then crushers will be left in the smoke doing feck all... meanwhile flesh hounds are fast enough to catch those transports and are then able to rip them apart.


That's what Fiends are for and Seekers can do the same things to those AV10 vehicles. Granted Flesh Hounds are slightly better at pinging tanks than Seekers but Seekers are just more versatile as they're not scared of trees.


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## deviant_cadaver (Sep 6, 2008)

In crushers defense they are 3" across with 2 " spacing and 8 of them that's 3 and1/3 feet that's a big line to just outmaneuver by. On top of that they have survivability so after a turn of shooting( say after they pop a 35 pt transport) there will be some left.

So going to have to go with Aramoro on this one seekers over hounds. For 2 pts more they are so much more versatile.

In all fairness trees are scary I saw 3 of them gang up and take down a tank.


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## Mortigar (Oct 5, 2010)

I would drop a couple of the daemonettes and add in a couple of Icons to your units to help you get better placement of reserves and to make sure there is less chance of mishaps


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