# Perturabo and Mortarion (Spoilers!)



## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

Spoilers from Forge World's _The Horus Heresy Book 1 - Betrayal_ ahead!

I was reading through on the Death Guard when I came upon the entry on the Death Guard's use of alchem and radiation weaponry, such as Phosphex and rad-shells. In that same entry is Mortarion's relations with the other Primarchs, and according to it, he "kept little company with his fellow Primarchs, save for Horus and Curze upon occasion, being perhaps in some way more likened to himself than the rest, and by others such as Perturabo and Lion El'Jonson he was actively shunned" (pg 129, under "Fearful Weapons").

I can understand why El'Jonson might be a bit peeved by him and the Death Guard's use of chem weaponry, but what would Perturabo have against Mortarion? Sure, pretty much nobody likes Perturabo, and Perturabo hates right back, but if that's true, why would the text bother mentioning him? Why not pick another Primarch? Am I missing something?

In any case, it doesn't look like the _Allies in the Age of Darkness_ chart (pg. 185) supports any animosity between the Death Guard and the Iron Warriors legions proper, listing them as "Fellow Warriors" rather than "Distrusted Allies" or even "By the Emperor's/Warmaster's Command". This stands in contrast to, say, the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves, who _will _only ally "by the Emperor's/Warmaster's Command" and whose Primarchs were indeed rivals - The Lion and the Wolf and all. It could just be Perturabo being Perturabo.

Let me know what you guys think!


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I haven't read the book, but I'll toss out some random ideas.

1. Maybe they saw each other as rivals, sorta? Like the IF and IW? They're both hardy, stubborn fighters. They're different enough not to overlap, I think.

2. Far-fetched (perhaps even more far-fetched than 1), but here goes...

Perturabo actually held the Emperor in extremely high esteem. The Index Astartes says "Perturabo was initially fanatically devoted to the Emperor and was ready to embrace missions that other Primarchs avoided."

Maybe the fact that Mortarion was closer to Horus than the Emperor rubbed Perturabo wrong?

3. Perturabo was a mechanical genius. Maybe the fact that Mortarion didn't rely on more traditional, mechanical weapons didn't jive with him? Seems like a pretty weak excuse here, too.

Honestly, I don't really think they should be at odds. Probably closer to indifferent with maybe a dose of respect for both Legions being steadfast on the field of battle?


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Neither of them seem to be the most amiable characters, so maybe it was just a personality clash? I'm reading _Angel Exterminatus_ at the moment, and Perturabo only seems to have had any time for Magnus out of all the primarchs, and even then only as a fellow scholar rather than a friend. He simply isn't a "people person".


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

The quote says "actively shuns", though. Unless Perturbo actively shunned almost all of his brothers...

Still, that doesn't make sense to list him as someone who hated Mortarion.

And I don't think Pertubro hated all his brothers (minus Dorn). Probably an aloof indifference with a bit of disdainful envy. Not "active shunning".


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

All could be possible. The second idea's less far-fetched than you might think; Perturabo wanted love and attention from the Emprah but never got it, while Mortarion shunned the Emprah for basically stealing victory and glory from him. It's easy to imagine what happens when two siblings have a differing opinion of their parent...

That could be why Mortarion occasionally hangs out with Night Haunter, too. Truth be told, _that_ relationship confuses me even more than the possible animosity between Morty and Perturabo!


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Per "Angel Exterminatus", Perturabo never liked the kind of war he felt he was forced to prosecute. Given his aspirations to the kind of person he _wanted_ to be, why would he be friends with someone who fashioned himself into a sort of "death lord" that had no qualms about unleashing poison and disease as part of warfare... with no concerns over collateral damage?

Remember, even though Perturabo wiped out Olympia's population, he had yet to come to grips with his own choices and resulting guilt in that novel. It thus seems reasonable to me that he would hold on to his old grudges, as well.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I dunno when it comes to Mortarion my favourite bit on him is when he walks out with Angron during the meeting in First Heretic, Angron rambling on about something and Mortarion with a bemused smile a long with a line that goes something like this is how their conversation usually happen. It would make a great sitcom


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Perturabo sees war machines and technology as a proper method of war and relies upon them heavily. Not so much as the Iron Hands but sits somewhere between the Imperial Fists and the Iron Hands. Taking bits form both of them. 

Mortarion on the other hand would be a polar opposite. His legion believes in human endurance and the ability to outlast anything thrown against them. While the 'death lord' aspect of him is, in my opinion, just to add another layer of fluff to him -- at the end of the day the Death Guard seem to shun technology in favor of biological superiority. 

This could be another level of friction between them. While not so much as to cause undo hatred (or maybe it could, the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors are so much alike and that caused Perturabo to hate Dorn in the end), it could just be another scratch in a thousand others that makes him dispise Mortarion.

To a better question -- why the hell didn't the Emperor notice all these hatreds (Mortarion and Pertuabo (and Dorn), Mortarion and Magnus, Russ and Magnus, Ferrus Manus and Lorgar, ect, ect. I know that he encourage rivalry between them and likely didn't suspect his post-mortality primarchs could allow their differences to lead to war ... surely at some point he might have at least given thought to a nice Father and Son sit down to work all these little things out?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Did Ferrus hate Lorgar? I thought the only famous relation (either negative or positive) was with Fulgrim and they where very close.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

BlackGuard said:


> To a better question -- why the hell didn't the Emperor notice all these hatreds (Mortarion and Pertuabo (and Dorn), Mortarion and Magnus, Russ and Magnus, Ferrus Manus and Lorgar, ect, ect. I know that he encourage rivalry between them and likely didn't suspect his post-mortality primarchs could allow their differences to lead to war ... surely at some point he might have at least given thought to a nice Father and Son sit down to work all these little things out?


They were all rivalries. Something to spur each other on.

I mean, hey, not all their conflicts led to fratricide. Russ and The Lion being an example. I think Vulkan and Ferrus butted heads, too.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I think Vulkan and Ferrus where friends, didn't Vulkan make Ferrus a pistol that he didn't use out of respect or something?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Did Ferrus hate Lorgar? I thought the only famous relation (either negative or positive) was with Fulgrim and they where very close.


Ferrus made Illuminarium for Lorgar, but that was seemingly the entire extent of their interactions, and Ferrus makes it pretty clear he doesn't think highly of Lorgar or his ethos at said meeting.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Doesn't mean he hates him, it's not like Dorn and Perturabo. Tbh not many of the Primarchs did like Lorgar


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Doesn't mean he hates him, it's not like Dorn and Perturabo. Tbh not many of the Primarchs did like Lorgar


he hated lorgar because lorgar was the weakest of the 18, he acheived the least and was heretical in his views, in short he was a failure....hell he still is, but out of the traitors he is one of my favorites



Knowing the spiteful thought was petty, Lorgar had sought to
temper it. ‘One wonders if you are capable of making anything
that creates, rather than destroys.’ He tried to smile, hoping it
would rob the accusation of any venom as he stood uncomfortably
in the heat blaring from the open furnace.
Ferrus had cast a glance over his dark-skinned shoulder and
watched his fey brother for a moment, not returning the smile.
‘One wonders if you are capable of creating anything worthwhile
at all.’

‘Say nothing.’ Already, the falling ring of hammer-hand upon
yielding steel.Clang, clang, clang. ‘Say nothing, and leave me be.
That will spare us any halting attempts at conversation when we
agree on nothing, and have nothing but awkwardness to share.’
‘As you wish.’ Lorgar had forced a smile to his brother’s back,
and left in silence

from the book "The first heretic"


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

In terms of the conquests of the Great Crusade I would agree with you that Lorgar was a failure but the Horus Heresy which he ultimately masterminded was a great success. Yes the Imperium 'won' the war but I would argue that Chaos won the greater victory. They turned the galaxy into a fertile ground for Chaos for some ten thousand years now while the Emperor is trapped between life and death, unable to correct the continuing downward spiral of his empire. Lorgar by corrupting Horus brought about the slow death of his father's Imperium.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

and the death of mankind, the original reason he started this whole bullsh*t, was to save them, instead he doomed them.

Furthermore, he did start of/catalyse and really mastermind the chaos aspect of things, he threw his lot in with horus, horus was incinerated out of existence, horus lost and so by extension lorgar lost.
he remains to be mediocre general even after the great crusade,for example the travesty at calth though it was expected by him, nevertheless shows he isn't very proficient at war, much like his men.
He loved his brothers, but ended up splitting them and killing most (guilliman and dorn are dead until proven otherwise), he wanted to enlighten humanity......well if by enlightened he meant tortured and ground under the boot of tyranny, then he won.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I think Vulkan and Ferrus where friends, didn't Vulkan make Ferrus a pistol that he didn't use out of respect or something?


Vulkan gave Ferrus a Firedrake banner and Ferrus in return gave Vulkan an exquisitely made pistol he himself forged. Vulkan returned the pistol, however. Ferrus believes that Vulkan had some misgivings about Ferrus's ability to forge things the normal way (aka, not beaten into shape by Ferrus's metallic arms).

Though later on, Ferrus does return the weapon to Vulkan and Vulkan accepts it.

Though you are right. Vulkan says that Ferrus is his friend in _Promethean Sun_.

It does state later on that Vulkan and Ferrus's approach to had a "subtle but telling difference...one that left them a little divided despite their close friendship."


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Lost&Damned said:


> and the death of mankind, the original reason he started this whole bullsh*t, was to save them, instead he doomed them.


The death of the Imperium doesn't equal the death of mankind. Remember the galaxy is very, _very_ large place and there are many pockets of humanity that aren't a part of the Imperium or with Chaos or the Tau Empire, living on forgotten, undiscovered, isolated worlds. Beyond that the Imperium itself is incredibly vast in size. Had Cabal been telling the truth about Horus winning and eventually driving the Imperium into a cataclysmic self-destruction it wouldn't have wiped out humanity or even all of the Imperium, which is one reasons I believe they weren't telling the whole truth about that. Simply put the Imperium and the galaxy is too large for that to realistically happen.



Lost&Damned said:


> Furthermore, he did start of/catalyse and really mastermind the chaos aspect of things, he threw his lot in with horus, horus was incinerated out of existence, horus lost and so by extension lorgar lost.


You're only looking at the Heresy from a militaristic side of things. There was more going on than just that and certainly Lorgar was involved in a lot more than just the fighting.



Lost&Damned said:


> he remains to be mediocre general even after the great crusade,for example the travesty at calth though it was expected by him, nevertheless shows he isn't very proficient at war, much like his men.


Of course, I'm not saying Lorgar is a great general and I even agreed that he was a failure in the Great Crusade. He isn't a great general compared to most of his brothers. The truth was he _hated_ that he had been born to conquer and wage war. So I don't know why you brought that up as it doesn't really have much to anything in regards to what I'm talking about.

Lorgar's greatest victories and successes weren't military ones, they were largely spiritual and personal. Though again his greatest triumph was masterminding Horus's fall. And that's big part of what led to his ascension to Daemonhood.



Lost&Damned said:


> He loved his brothers, but ended up splitting them and killing most (guilliman and dorn are dead until proven otherwise), he wanted to enlighten humanity......well if by enlightened he meant tortured and ground under the boot of tyranny, then he won.


Actually he wasn't all that fond of many of his brothers and vice versa. Really Magnus was only one he was close too. And he grew to hate Guilliman before his fall. Yes he expressed outrage at the daemon possessing Fulgrim's body but not because Fulgrim was his brother, rather because the nature of the possession, the daemon possessing a soulless body while Fulgrim's soul inhabiting the painting rather than a merging of man and daemon.

Ultimately Lorgar isn't a brilliant general or an incredible warrior like many of his brothers, he's something else, something harder to define. That's what in my eyes makes him the most interesting of the Primarchs. His fall to Chaos is in many ways a dark mirrored version of the core story of the young hero filled with hesitance and self-doubt becoming the legend they're meant to be.

But I believe he can best be summed up in his own words, from the opening lines of the Book of Lorgar.



> All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Akatsuki13 said:


> The death of the Imperium doesn't equal the death of mankind. Remember the galaxy is very, _very_ large place and there are many pockets of humanity that aren't a part of the Imperium or with Chaos or the Tau Empire, living on forgotten, undiscovered, isolated worlds. Beyond that the Imperium itself is incredibly vast in size. Had Cabal been telling the truth about Horus winning and eventually driving the Imperium into a cataclysmic self-destruction it wouldn't have wiped out humanity or even all of the Imperium, which is one reasons I believe they weren't telling the whole truth about that. Simply put the Imperium and the galaxy is too large for that to realistically happen.


Thats one way to look at it. However, there have been numerous suggestions that "the Imperium _is_ the species."

Whilst it physically may not encompass every single human in existence (rebels, Chaos worshippers, defectors, the undiscovered and the like) if it falls it seems assured that the rest of humanity will fall with it.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Seconded.

On the one hand, humanity obviously survived the Age of Strife. Thing is, though, it only survived as a fragmented entity. The largest "empires" of mankind rarely extended past a handful of systems. Could a re-fractured humanity survive the current threats?

We don't know for certain to what extent the Orks were an imminent threat to the specied during that period of time (the fact that they didn't wipe us out in those thousands of years reinforces my suspicion that their tech level makes them a long-term threat), but beyond that? The Necrons and Tau, for instance, are emerging threats that mankind never had to face 11,000 years ago. Furthermore, I'm not sure that humanity had to face Chaos to such a militarized, mobilized extent (that is, Traitor Legions, Daemon Primarchs, etc.). And, most importantly, mankind never had to deal with the Tyranid threat. That last one alone would probably have made mincemeat of any state that was less than sector-size in terms of military strength.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I'd just like to say that, imposing figurehead-and-prophet that he is, the Heresy is certainly not Lorgar's endeavour; he is merely the shining orator that forges a white-hot idea into words and direction (as befits the talents of a Primarch). No, the Heresy is Kor Phaeron's, and his alone.
It is Kor Phaeron's spitting defiance at the Emperor, for having the gall to try and take his religion and his son. Even in Lorgar's finest achievement, he still fails because it's not his.

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=92066&highlight=phaeron%27s+heresy

GFP


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

In Betrayer, we learn that the Calth campaign was approved by Lorgar because he wanted to further weed out the incompetent of the legion and Word Bearers that were over zealous to the point-that it outweighed their usefulness. I don't think he really thought Erebus and Kor Phaeron could actually manage to wipe out the Ultramarines and their primarch.

It is also implied that Lorgar's opinion of Erebus and Kor Pharon changed for the worse as he deepened his understanding of Chaos.

So I don't see how you're saying that Kor Phaeron was the real mastermind of the heresy. He simply reassured Lorgar that he wasn't alone in not wanting to worship the Emperor anymore and told him where to go and what he had to do to understand the Chaos powers. 

But the student soon surpassed the master.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Akatsuki13 said:


> In terms of the conquests of the Great Crusade I would agree with you that Lorgar was a failure but the Horus Heresy which he ultimately masterminded was a great success.


To disagree, the XVII Legion actually had one of the highest conquest rates of any, which would tell me they were one of the greatest successes of the GC... outside of those annoying fall to Chaos and bring about the Heresy bits. The facts that they were able to corrupt half of the legions, generate one of the highest number of Astares of any legion (without their own demi-empire like the XIIIth), and do all this over a period of 50 years prior to the Heresy without being detected also tells me they were some of the greatest strategic thinkers of the GC.

It's also pretty explicitly stated in First Heretic that Lorgar spends all his time writing The Book of Lorgar and avoiding the Emperor or other potentially loyalist Primarchs. The Heresy is the mastermind of Kor Phaeron and Erebus, although it's uncertain if it's really them, or if they're just following orders/whispers from the Warp.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I don't think he really thought Erebus and Kor Phaeron could actually manage to wipe out the Ultramarines and their primarch.
> 
> It is also implied that Lorgar's opinion of Erebus and Kor Pharon changed for the worse as he deepened his understanding of Chaos.


True on both counts, but I see this as a symptom of corruption, not a realization of their abilities. Once a primarch turns toward Chaos, and away from the Emperor, it seems to be a universal that he starts thinking that everyone, even his own sons, are incompetent. This in turn flows down through the ranks with every Astares thinking their superiors are just there to one day be stabbed in the back and replaced with their awesome-ness.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

I would like to point out that in regards to the Great Crusade -- Lorgar and the Word Bearers were not failures. I believe, and I may be mistaken, that in First Heretic once the XVII Legion is shamed by the Emperor on Monarchia and then when Lorgar finds his answers on Cadia -- that the Word Bearers at least nominally abandoned their faith in the Emperor.

I believe that there is a paragraph or passage that states that the Imperial Records (speaking as if by a 40k perspective) would never show or confirm it but much of what is now the 'Imperium' was forged by the feverish conquests of the Word Bearers. That their conquests were second only to Horus and Guilliman's Legions. That speaks volumes of their martial abilities. Going from what could be called Glorified Missionaires to Savage Crusaders is impressive.

Though I admit that for all of their military knowledge the Word Bearers as a whole always seems to come across as horribly paranoid, backwards, and far too concerned with faith than war -- which for Chaos Worshippers is rather odd.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

It says they conquered more worlds in the space of time between Monarchia and the Heresy because they simply didn't care any more and were working their way towards the eye of terror.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

Ah my mistake then. I didn't have the book in front of me and its been months since I read it.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

How the hell did we get from Perturabo and Mortarion to Lorgar?


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## Lacus Lacrimarum (Mar 29, 2013)

Protoss119 said:


> Spoilers from Forge World's _The Horus Heresy Book 1 - Betrayal_ ahead!
> 
> I was reading through on the Death Guard when I came upon the entry on the Death Guard's use of alchem and radiation weaponry, such as Phosphex and rad-shells. In that same entry is Mortarion's relations with the other Primarchs, and according to it, he "kept little company with his fellow Primarchs, save for Horus and Curze upon occasion, being perhaps in some way more likened to himself than the rest, and by others such as Perturabo and Lion El'Jonson he was actively shunned" (pg 129, under "Fearful Weapons").
> 
> ...


From Betrayal: the Death Guard "fought tirelessly in the service of the Great Crusade, never relenting in battle beneath their Primarch's gaze they pursued the liberation of Mankind with a fervour the Great Crusade had never known. Their restless fleet ploughed the cold void from one campaign to the next, resupplying on the move, never pausing but to make war. They did not garrison, they did not build . . . " (pg. 126)

And there you have it. What was Perturabo's problem with Mortarion? Jealously. Here's a Primarch whose legion overlaps with a few of the Iron Warriors' characteristics and areas of expertise (toughness, endurance, implacability, patience in the face of attrition) but unlike the Iron Warriors, is given full dispensation to conquer world after world in open battle whilst leaving mop-up operations to the Imperial Army and other auxiliaries - unlike the sons of Perturabo, who are stuck doing precisely that: protracted sieges, mop up operations, and garrison duty all at the cost of manpower and prestige. Perturabo's legion suffered high attrition rates and a humiliating loss of political control over their homeworld as a result of being spread so thin. The Death Guard by contrast were able to turn cohesion into an organizational first principle: "Of all the Legions, it was said of the Death Guard that they were but one entity with a single purpose and one body." 

One could argue that Mortarion stole Perturabo's thunder as much as Dorn did in some respects. And to add insult to injury, the rather ascetic and forbidding Mortarion cared little for his statue in the eyes of his peers, something that could not be said of the resentful and competitive Perturabo.


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