# What were GW thinking!?



## HUMYN HYBRID (Aug 9, 2011)

ok, so this is my first official 'hot topic' (lame i know). anyways, the point of this thread is that i would like to see what people think of some things they think (as the title suggests) what were they thinking... and their reasons behind it.

so i guess i have one to ask.

ETHEREALS!!!

how are they any use at all... weak as all hell, and when dead, the rest of my forces just run off the table with tails between their legs!


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

fluff reasons i would think


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Have you never seen a combat Tau army running a suicidal Ethereal at its head?
No, well don't worry, they're crap... but very funny 

Ethereals are throwaway entries, many books have them. Units so rubbish that almost no-one ever bothers with them.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Yeah ethereals are pretty much the only actual completely useless unit in 40k...other than the entire chaos daemon dex.


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## Magicnick93 (Apr 1, 2012)

Well, Ethereals can be a lifesaver. Imagine your unit of firewarriors got stuck in close-combat during your opponent's assault fase and (obviously) lost. Meanwhile, you have another squad of firewarriors and/or some suits nearby to blow the enemy to bits. If you would make your leadership test, then your suits and firewarriors can't do anything on your turn.

If you have an ethereal in LOS, then you can reroll your leadership test. It doesn't matter if you did or did not make it. This way, you can get out of close combat and shoot their squad to tiny bits. This would turn a victory for the enemy into at least a trade-off, if not a victory for your team.

This is one way of using them, but the real problem is indeed getting them to stay alive. I mostly deploy one behind my firing line, in cover for most enemies while still seeïng all my own units.

I hope this helps.


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## HUMYN HYBRID (Aug 9, 2011)

so nobody else has any thoughts on any other units/rules/anything? lolz... whats wrong with the daemon dex?


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## Necrosis (Nov 1, 2008)

HUMYN HYBRID said:


> so nobody else has any thoughts on any other units/rules/anything? lolz... whats wrong with the daemon dex?


They don't have transports to hide in.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

It does make sense what happens when they die. But with a name like Ethereal and how revered they are, you'd think they'd be sturdier. I have actually seen a suicide Ethereal army do pretty well. But if you roll badly it is literally all over. Better to do what Tau do best ... well better than close combat, shoot. The Codex needs some serious reworking next edition but I can see some promise if done right. 

In truth Ethereals are throw away units. By Tau fluff they should never be near a battlefield if held so sacred. The big thing is that most of the truely crappy, absolutely untakeable units are not from their HQ choices. Even bad named characters in some armies can be found useful. And I'd rather take a unit of Mandrakes or, god forbid, Flayed Ones over an Ethereal. 

@ Sakura: The Daemon codex is only horrible because of its deployment ... or lack-there-of. I've met some grisly ends at the hands of Tzeentch and Slaanesh armies. Chariots, Fiends of Slaanesh and certainly Flamers of Tzeentch are quite nasty. Of course, the army actually requires more luck than skill to play because of the potential Deep Strike dangers. But setting the list does require some thought. Flamers for example, are best taken as a unit of 3 or 4, otherwise some may not be able to use that lovely template shot when they arrive. And let's face it, after using that they are toast. I think the biggest danger to Daemons right now is the Necron codex. Namely, Orikan and a Writhing Worldscape C'Tan. Anything that arrives turn 1 for the Daemons has a 1/3 chance of being wounded.


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## Calamari (Feb 13, 2009)

Sakura_ninja said:


> Yeah ethereals are pretty much the only actual completely useless unit in 40k...other than the entire chaos daemon dex.


They are no where near useless! True they are a win big/ lose big army but they are far from bad. Not only that but they are so much fun! Except Beasts of Nurgle, they suck in all kinds of ways....



Necrosis said:


> They don't have transports to hide in.


This isn't an issue if you build your list right. Deep striking and fast units (Fiends and winged DPs spring to mind) hep to get around no transports. What with everyone gearing up to pop tanks it can actually be a little bit of an advantage. Where they struggle is getting other people out of their transports at range.

My vote will go for Chaos Spawn. Even Ethereals have more use than Spawn.


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

Spawn don't make your army run away or give you useless abilities when dead.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

I actually dont mind the useless and funky units,it reminds that the game should be fun first, i dont go in for competetive lists or care if i win,i will field swooping hawks because i like the models and love the fluff/concept. also bear in mind ceetain units abilitu to be effictive can change codex to codex and rule set to rule set .


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Chaos Daemons are completely uselss, it's why people keep winning tournies with them including Ard Boyz and the like. Yup, utterly useless just like Ethereals.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Aramoro said:


> Chaos Daemons are completely uselss, it's why people keep winning tournies with them including Ard Boyz and the like. Yup, utterly useless just like Ethereals.


Stop coming around here with your logic and common sense!this is the interwebs dont yah know


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm going to have to go with Flash Gitz as the most useless, or at lest the most aggravating... 

This is what the meeting to make them must have sounded like:
Hey let's take one of the best guns in the game (Str 6, Assault 2, AP 1d6, after upgrades), throw in the ability to pre-measure before you choose your target, And let's give that two a unit that has a BS 2, and is better in assault, but can't take a Dedicated Transport.

~Trollface~


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## cranvill (Jul 20, 2008)

I must admit i gree with Joka they do suck pritty badly lol but can sometimes work.......sometimes.


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## EmbraCraig (Jan 19, 2009)

I'm gonna go with the Pyrovore - the build up to a new Codex, a preview of a cool new model... and it turns out to be an overcosted heavy flamer with legs.

Not only that - it gets a spot in the 1st wave of releases while we wait years for boneswords and lashwhips for our warriors, Prime upgrades bits, Tervigons, non FW Wings for stuff... you know, all the stuff people actually wanted to use out of the new codex..


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## cranvill (Jul 20, 2008)

I was so pissed when two mounths after buying a forge world trygon GW made a cheeper plastic one grrrrrrrrr


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Sakura_ninja said:


> Yeah ethereals are pretty much the only actual completely useless unit in 40k...other than the entire chaos daemon dex.


It takes a good player to use the codex, but it can win against most things


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## crisissuitguy (Jan 8, 2010)

I don't understand the rip on daemons. I love running my daemons. If you get even a couple bloodletters into combat you get already a crap ton of all power weapon hits. Daemons are badass man, and fateweaver makes them survivable  Let's see what you say when fateweaver gift of chaos's an hq of yours hehe. But anyways, the only thing about daemons is taking out vehicles, because your only chance first turn is bolt of change, which isnt even that reliable, but if you can get your models to get close then youve got a big advantage.


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## bobahoff (Nov 24, 2011)

My vote goes to death company. I'd love to be a fly on the wall at that meating
'I've just had an awesome idea, let's make a truly amazing close combat unit that are not just incredibly hard hitting but also really survivable and then make them spend every game tarpitted against landraiders or huge horde units.'
'Brilliant'


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

I like the idea of a HQ unit that is more realistic. HQ's, leaders, especially high end leaders are usually old. They have great leadership capabilities, strategy skills, and know how to make their armies work in coordination. But, they should not be some ultra melee god with higher physical stats, trying to lead from a bloodbath melee. Ever tried to coordinate a battle while swinging a sword? Doesn't happen.

That's what those super tough land raiders, bunkers, and body guards are for.


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## King Gary (Aug 13, 2009)

Like Archon dan said, never quite saw how an Etherial would make it onto the battlefield it just doesn't quite fit as far as the fluff's concerned, it just seems like something more akin to some deeply thought out homebrew character. Having said that, it's nice to see GW trying something a bit different and certaily adds flavour to the army list


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

On the topic of 'what were they thinking?' I'll throw in the AP system.

Our reduces the granular usefulness of a ton of weapons and close combat. And it encourages people to hide in cover even more than they did before!

I believe GW wanted to encourage marines to not hide behind cover by making their armor save better than all cover Saves . . . But then they increased drastically the value, uglier and prevalence of low AP weapons.

Doh !


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

Warp Quake. I see no justifiable reason within the fluff to support the existence of such an ability, let alone the ability to take this skill in large enough numbers to effectively make an entire deployment style redundant. Add this to Daemon's compulsory deployment style, and in rare cases you can have a battle where one army doesn't even make it to the board!

This however I do not hold against the GK codex. It is entirely the fault of the Daemon deployment rules that make this situation a possibility.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

bobahoff said:


> My vote goes to death company. I'd love to be a fly on the wall at that meating
> 'I've just had an awesome idea, let's make a truly amazing close combat unit that are not just incredibly hard hitting but also really survivable and then make them spend every game tarpitted against landraiders or huge horde units.'
> 'Brilliant'


I think giving Death Company the Rage rule was a way for GW to sell more Tanks and transport vehicles. Death Company work extremely well if you can drive them to their target. It probably went more like this.
"So we made a chapter that uses Land Raiders as Dedicated Transports and will have the Stormraven to make us more money. Now how do we get people to buy these expensive models?"
"We could make a unit that relies on transports to be effective; otherwise it does nothing all game."
"Wait, don't we have a rule called Rage?"



Grokfog said:


> Warp Quake. I see no justifiable reason within the fluff to support the existence of such an ability, let alone the ability to take this skill in large enough numbers to effectively make an entire deployment style redundant. Add this to Daemon's compulsory deployment style, and in rare cases you can have a battle where one army doesn't even make it to the board!
> 
> This however I do not hold against the GK codex. It is entirely the fault of the Daemon deployment rules that make this situation a possibility.



It is the Daemon's deployment that is their biggest weakness. Granted some units really thrive when deploying by deep strike in that codex, but over half rely on assault. And maybe Matt Ward hates Daemons. He did make two codici(Grey Knights and Necrons) that have builds that will wreck Daemons before they even get on the table. But I stand by my earlier post that some Daemon builds can be truly nasty and many players lack the experience fighting them. Of course, that can be said for anything but Marines, depending on the local meta.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Daemons might be out of touch with the style of army needed to do well with the current rules, but almost no-one builds an army with daemons in mind. That means that while your army doesn't work so well against other people their army doesn't work all that well against you as well. Sometimes that's enough, sometimes its not.
I love my daemons, sure I might do a hell of a lot worse with them then with my other armies (most down to luck on DS as to whether I win/lose a lot of the time) but hell, its only a game...


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## Grokfog (May 4, 2009)

Honestly, the deployment rules are one of only 2 reasons that stop me playing Daemons (I freakin' LOVE Skulltaker. I know he's not the most competitive, but I think He's awesome!)

The other being the vast amount of unfinished work I already have without adding more to the pile.

Hopefully within the next year or two we'll see Daemons get a break or two, and the pile of grey models in my house get sufficiently small enough that I can start a Khorne Daemon force.... Mmmm, Bloodcrushers.... :biggrin:


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

The apoc rule of flank march. Wtf!


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Grokfog said:


> Honestly, the deployment rules are one of only 2 reasons that stop me playing Daemons (I freakin' LOVE Skulltaker. I know he's not the most competitive, but I think He's awesome!)
> 
> The other being the vast amount of unfinished work I already have without adding more to the pile.
> 
> Hopefully within the next year or two we'll see Daemons get a break or two, and the pile of grey models in my house get sufficiently small enough that I can start a Khorne Daemon force.... Mmmm, Bloodcrushers.... :biggrin:


Interestingly there's a guy who played Daemons with regular deployment rules (based off some scenario argument). He absolutely annihilated everyone he played. Daemons deployment style is fun and unique which I like, it's also needed to stop them being bonkers.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> It is the Daemon's deployment that is their biggest weakness.


Daemons of the warp come in piece meal scattering the full 2d6 with no way to manipulate their reserve roll or scatter (aside from expensive icons that have to already be in play).

Red spehss marihnes scatter 1d6 (or not at all), have a unit that can assault after DS'ing and if I recall have a way to reroll the reserve (I'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong on that).

That always bothered me.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Yeah, but that's codex creep. If daemons got redone now then their icons would be cheaper, would likely work as soon as they hit the table and I expect there would be gifts you could give some units to allow them to assault after DS.... but that's what happens with new codexes, they get batter each time.
Alternately we might find that 6th ed has nicer DS rules, gives more reserve options and makes vehicles less nasty.. all of which would make daemons far more playable.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

Tim/Steve said:


> Yeah, but that's codex creep. If daemons got redone now then their icons would be cheaper, would likely work as soon as they hit the table and I expect there would be gifts you could give some units to allow them to assault after DS.... but that's what happens with new codexes, they get batter each time.
> Alternately we might find that 6th ed has nicer DS rules, gives more reserve options and makes vehicles less nasty.. all of which would make daemons far more playable.


Agreed 100%. Those few months when the CD dex dropped and before the meta switched full force to mech, daemons were pretty damn good. I'd be happy even if something like taking a herald gives you a +1 for that specific gods troops on their reserve roll. Just something to make it not as much of a win big/lose big army every game.


Oh, and remove warp quake. Completely. It's garbage.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Ravner298 said:


> Daemons of the warp come in piece meal scattering the full 2d6 with no way to manipulate their reserve roll or scatter (aside from expensive icons that have to already be in play).
> 
> Red spehss marihnes scatter 1d6 (or not at all), have a unit that can assault after DS'ing and if I recall have a way to reroll the reserve (I'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong on that).
> 
> That always bothered me.


Only those with Jump Packs get those rules for Blood Angels. But yes, Daemons being Warp Spawn should have better control over the Warp. It's not like Terminators teleporting. I could easily see Khorne Daemons being able to assault after deep strike. But like the Space Marine Veterans that can, they would not be able to run, still leaving a chance of scatter ruining it. But that'd be while they'd have an icon or a gift that could reduce or eliminate scatter if nearby. I'm sure Daemons will get a nice update given the popularity of the army and that it switches between 2 game systems.


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Grokfog said:


> Honestly, the deployment rules are one of only 2 reasons that stop me playing Daemons (I freakin' LOVE Skulltaker. I know he's not the most competitive, but I think He's awesome!)
> 
> The other being the vast amount of unfinished work I already have without adding more to the pile.
> 
> Hopefully within the next year or two we'll see Daemons get a break or two, and the pile of grey models in my house get sufficiently small enough that I can start a Khorne Daemon force.... Mmmm, Bloodcrushers.... :biggrin:


There's absolutely nothing wrong with our unique deployment style, and as mentioned, it's utterly required to keep the army balanced! (because we Daemon players can spam ludicrous amounts of winged & cavalry units on top of Fleeting Troops choices who all have rending attacks!)
Imagine losing first turn to an army that's roughly;
Bloodthirster
2x Chariot Tzheralds
2x 6 Fiends
2x 8-10 Seekers
3x 5 Horrors w/Bolt
2-3 Princes.
Have fun! That's at least 1 winged MC, 4 'cavalry' type units, 2 jetbikes with S8/ap1 shots and some token Troops who also have a Bolt of Tzeentch. Deep Strike deployment keeps us from destroying 40k like we did Fantasy!

Even 'Transporthammer' isn't that imposible for daemons to overcome. Consider that an 'average' competitive Daemons list will contain at least 3-4 S8/ap1 shots (@BS4 or higher), 2 or more cavalry units w/rending attacks and quite possibly a winged MC or two. With uotp half a dozen or so units with an 18"-24" threat range, we can easily chase down all but the fastest Eldar vehicles within a couple turns.
Outside of av14 spam, Daemons have adapted to handel armour. Kairos, Blue Scribes, 'Thirsters, Tzeralds, chariot HoS, Fiends, min/maxed Horrors, Seekers, Hounds, Screamers, Princes - all are solid counters to av11/12 spam. And I don't care how fast you've gone, throwing out 36 S5/rending attacks will kill almost any vehicle!


Nope, what's killed Daemons right now are the disproportionate number of Durp Knights armies and Warp Quake in general...
A single 10 man squad that's fully maxed it's 2" coherency builds a roughly 36"x44+" bubble of 'you shouldn't even consider trying to land here'. While the auto-mishap zone is only 12", keep in mind a good Daemon player always plans their drop with that average 7" scatter in mind too.
And Interceptors are popular choices due to their speedy deployment of S7/rending psycannons.

It's more or less that Ward keeps nerfing the wrong Daemon army... He was supposed to nerf the Fantasy Daemons he only broke an entire edition with! But apparently guys with guns look so much like guys with swords&boards that he got all mixed up.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

bobahoff said:


> My vote goes to death company. I'd love to be a fly on the wall at that meating
> 'I've just had an awesome idea, let's make a truly amazing close combat unit that are not just incredibly hard hitting but also really survivable and then make them spend every game tarpitted against landraiders or huge horde units.'
> 'Brilliant'


There are these cool things called Power Fist and Thunderhammers, that really help with Landraiders. Also with FC and Rending you can glance them even without it. And to me a large horde is one of the best places for the Death Company to end up. Most likely they won't have power weapons that make all that nice survivability go away.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Just to add my own points:

1. As has already been established, Daemons are a really good Army. The models look amazing, the rules are (relatively) competitive, and their fluff is awesome.

2. I wouldn't be a fan of regular deployment for Daemons as we have no transports and alot of our units are very fragile. So unlike Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, we would have no way to avoid getting shredded unless there was significant amounts of cover available.

In saying that, the random select for choosing which half of your units come in first is the big weakness AND the fact we can lose units on scatter.

Daemons should be immune to losing any units that scatter and instead should have them be delayed by a turn. Also it should be the daemon players choice which half of the army comes in first.

Other than a few points changes, updating a couple of useless units, fixing icons and maybe adding a few more daemonic powers I think the codex is really solid.

Heck, even as it stands you can table people by turn three if they aren't expecting a daemonic foe, and you get some lucky scatters.


P.S Tailoring a codex to fight another codex ala Grey Knights is bullsh*t. They should have gotten a few buffs against daemons, but as it stands I won't play them.

Maybe that makes me a bit of a d*ckhead, but I just feel its a waste of BOTH players time.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

D-A-C said:


> Just to add my own points:
> 
> 1. As has already been established, Daemons are a really good Army. The models look amazing, the rules are (relatively) competitive, and their fluff is awesome.
> 
> ...


Grey Knights really only have two big things going for them versuses Daemons: Preferred Enemy (rerolls to hit...reasonablly useful), and Warp Quake (which you're opponent would need Strike Squads (aka non-Terminator Marines) to bring in signifigant force (which don't have Invul Saves and thus suffer if they Perils or get hit by anything that ignores their Power Armor (Oh Hai Bloodletters)). 

Daemons are immune to Instant Death (Force What? Ha! Those are just Power Weapons against this army) and get all their saves treated as being Invunerable (so what if they have a codex of power weapons!). 

Soooooo.... realistically they have Preferred Enemy and that's most of their advantage right there.

Grey Knights can't bring models in force (unless you're facing a Corteaz list, which may end up being extra hilarious because of all the T3 and no Preferred Enemy) and are easilly outnumbered/maneuvered by Daemons, which means they hurt more for every model they lose.

Besides, why shouldn't THE Daemonhunters get rules that help them against Daemons? From a balance standpoint it sucks at the moment, but from a fluff standpoint it makes perfect sense. To complain about it is like complaining that Ultramarines are blue. It's silly and doesn't really accomplish anything.

Besides, even if the Daemons are beaten we all know that they're playing the longest game of them all. A loss now is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Zion said:


> Grey Knights really only have two big things going for them versuses Daemons: Preferred Enemy (rerolls to hit...reasonablly useful), and Warp Quake (which you're opponent would need Strike Squads (aka non-Terminator Marines) to bring in signifigant force (which don't have Invul Saves and thus suffer if they Perils or get hit by anything that ignores their Power Armor (Oh Hai Bloodletters)).
> 
> Daemons are immune to Instant Death (Force What? Ha! Those are just Power Weapons against this army) and get all their saves treated as being Invunerable (so what if they have a codex of power weapons!).
> 
> ...


Hmmmm?

In the game I played, my Daemons were reduced to INT 1 when assaulting, and also there was an ability which stripped my Daemons of their 'daemonic' powers, finally, supposedly there is an ability during which you must pass a leadership test or get Instant Killed. 

Plus some of there natural all-purpose abilities just lend themselves well to fighting Daemons IMO. 

I think that Grey Knights when they know they are facing daemons can add things which just make the game one-sided. Don't forget we can also scatter badly as it is, and have our non-prefered units landing first!!!

But then again, an Imperial Naval officer has ruined many a daemons game by mucking up the reserves-rolls. 

Like I said, I'm just not a fan of including things that target a single-specific codex. In my book, its just not cricket.

Also, in terms of fluff, I don't think Grey Knights warrant their own Codex. I believe they should be options in both Inquistorial and Space Marine codices. 




Zion said:


> Besides, even if the Daemons are beaten we all know that they're playing the longest game of them all. A loss now is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.


Your right about that though. But Tzeentch might not always agree with you, that loss could be the first stage of his plan for Mankind's ultimate demise!!! Lol.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

D-A-C said:


> Hmmmm?
> 
> In the game I played, my Daemons were reduced to INT 1 when assaulting, _So you got hit with Psychotroke Grenades (which work against everyone), ran into terrain to assault (effects anyone without grenades) or got smacked with a Daemonhammer (which is basically a Thunderhammer). All this works against anyone, and isn't anti-Daemon specific. Also Psychotroke Grenades are random, they don't always lower your initiative.
> 
> ...


It's true, Tzeentch may be using that loss to further his goals, or he may be countering his own moves so the game won't end.


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Zion; I think you're misinformed as to just how rough Daemon players have it vs 'Derp Knights'...
- D-A-C likely got hit by _Psyk-out grenades_ which affect all daemons & psykers charged by _ANY_ GK squad. (only henchmen don't get them)
Considering that our scariest assault units vs MEQ's only have a 12" threat range and always deep strike, only an idiotic GK player gets charged by Bloodletters or 'Crushers when there's no Fiends/Seekers/Hounds/winged MC support to lock stuff down first.

Saying that, Psychos are plain broken and should not exist with their current rules as they can very easily make any combat irrelevent. And all for the cost of a single Grey Hunter...

- Blessings of the Blood God *DO NOT!* stop Dark Ex because it's not inflicting damage. The 2++ save only works against actual wounds caused by psychic powers & pointy-death-sticks.

- Warp Quake is plain gross in it's actual effectiveness vs us. We can't ever chose to simply deploy normally - *we must always deep strike into play!*
DoA's/drop pods/spore pods/deathwing assaults/etc... can all chose to still walk and thus avoid the automatic 50/50 chance of having mishapping units instantly killed!

Consider for a moment, a fully spread out squad will cover roughly 22"x30" worth of table with an automatic "you're fethed and now get a 50/50 chance of auto-dying". Now factor in that a good Daemon player will acount for potential scatter of the average roll of 7" and increase the bubble to take that risk into account.
That's a shedload of table space that's either 'highly risky' to 'outright dumbass' for our forced deployment.

Oh, and Strikes & Interceptors especially are pretty common to see in most lists... Strikes are cheap numbers for things like Draigowing/Termiewing, while being cost-efficient MEQs for Henchmen builds. Interceptors with psycannons are vicious tank killers and provide rapid response.

- Sanctuary is killer against us because we're primarily an assault army that walks everywhere. So first we get to drop outside of a quakebubble, then walk into the teeth of GK guns, then get hit by another 12" bubble of auto-difficult & dangerous terrain when trying to assault!
Only mono-Tzeentch builds can reliably shoot stuff off the board, and even then you're lucky if you do because the bulk of your shooting is either template range or else 18"-24" @BS3.

- In fact, all the GK psychic powers are killer vs us because outside of Blessings vs 'psychic wounds', _we cannot stop *any* psychic powers_!!!
Clensing Flame, Hammerhand, MoT, 'Insta-win' Quake, Sanctuary, Shrouding, Fortitude, Dark Ex... It all adds upto lots of pain for a Daemon army who just get to sit there and take it on the chin across most of the army.

- Prefered Enemey is one of the least of our worries actually, and in fact, it makes Skarbrand rediculously good value vs GK's!
Now, if PE does indeed give re-rolls with shooting come 6th edition, then yes, it will suck alot more for us!

- Daemonbane is annoying at most, except when its teamed up alongside the broken psycho 'nades and you get the Ld2 result.
Outside of that 1/6 chance, we're Ld10 across the board! If I'm honestly losing more than 2-3 multi-wound models at most in a single 6 or 7 turn game, that's not a 'broken rule', but rather 'broken dice kicking me in the teeth!'



Sure, it's not 100% impossible to beat GK's with Daemons, just extremely unlikely unless you're insanely lucky most of the time.
Either way, games vs GK's are never fun for the Daemon player.


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

experiment 626 said:


> Zion; I think you're misinformed as to just how rough Daemon players have it vs 'Derp Knights'...
> - D-A-C likely got hit by _Psyk-out grenades_ which affect all daemons & psykers charged by _ANY_ GK squad. (only henchmen don't get them)
> Considering that our scariest assault units vs MEQ's only have a 12" threat range and always deep strike, only an idiotic GK player gets charged by Bloodletters or 'Crushers when there's no Fiends/Seekers/Hounds/winged MC support to lock stuff down first.
> 
> ...


Best explination that actually lists what causes problems. I usually just see "X army is broken because it's broken." Thanks for actually breaking it down for those of us who aren't familiar with the problems. You did a good job with being clear with actual problems.

So yes, Grey Knights became VERY overpowered versus Daemons. I hope to see Daemons get the inverse to match. Not making them broken, but giving them legitimate ways to counter the amount of nonsense the Grey Knights bring against them.


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## HUMYN HYBRID (Aug 9, 2011)

King Gary said:


> Like Archon dan said, never quite saw how an Etherial would make it onto the battlefield it just doesn't quite fit as far as the fluff's concerned, it just seems like something more akin to some deeply thought out homebrew character. Having said that, it's nice to see GW trying something a bit different and certaily adds flavour to the army list


maybe with the right kind of fluff to your battle could an ethereal be involved... i mean, i dont really see what kind of situation involves the likings of an ethereal, considering how 'holy' and 'treasured' they are to the tau, but in the case of fluff reasons, the enemy may be assaulting a base where an ethereal was based at... 

say an ork moon rok landed on a tau planet, and they made their way to the tau HQ where an ethereal was staying... for fluff reasons, thats how ethereals would get involved i guess... any thought on this?

btw, i love the idea of fluff based battles, and me and my brother always make up some scenario to our matches... just makes it more fun


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Adding fluff or basing battles around fluff can be a lot of fun. If games are random you end up with Necron and Daemon vs. Necron and Eldar. The game should have been both Necron vs Daemon and Eldar. Basically in their hour of need, the Eldar sought the assistance of the Khorne Daemons against the Necron. As it was, we decided the game fluff was way back in the Necron War of Secession. One dynasty got the aid of the Eldar and the other got the aid of Daemons.


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## HUMYN HYBRID (Aug 9, 2011)

haha, thats a pretty mad thought archon... i like it


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## dirty-dog- (May 14, 2008)

i would have to say the biggest what the hell where they thinking for me was GW putting a ban on all uk stores shipping gw stuff overseas.

this has completely screwed me over in terms of how gw used to be affordable.
im not the kind of person that buys heaps of stuff overseas for cheap then sells it on, never will be, but when it comes to it being worth buying forgeworld over gw items, because you get better value for money? thats when something is wrong.

i used to get all my 40k stuff from wayland games. great service, postage took a bit some times but hey its travelling between countries. but best of all, it was actually affordable for me to buy new models. 

the following prices are off the GW website.
So a space marine box over here is $73 nz. it was only last year they were around $50nz but best of all, in the uk they are 23 pounds. thats $47nz at .480 pounds to the nz dollar.

that is ridiculous. thats $26/12 pounds more than what i could get it for at full rrp from the uk. thats enough to get a blister pack!!

even better, a battleforce is $215 here. through the uk its only $125???
thats 42% more than what it is other places. the wholesale discount is only 35%

how can they possibly justify this?

and their excuse for banning the over seas shipping was to so customers put money back into their own countries. More like make more money from smaller countries.


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## King Gary (Aug 13, 2009)

HUMYN HYBRID said:


> maybe with the right kind of fluff to your battle could an ethereal be involved... i mean, i dont really see what kind of situation involves the likings of an ethereal, considering how 'holy' and 'treasured' they are to the tau, but in the case of fluff reasons, the enemy may be assaulting a base where an ethereal was based at...
> 
> say an ork moon rok landed on a tau planet, and they made their way to the tau HQ where an ethereal was staying... for fluff reasons, thats how ethereals would get involved i guess... any thought on this?
> 
> btw, i love the idea of fluff based battles, and me and my brother always make up some scenario to our matches... just makes it more fun


Yup, the only way I can really fit an ethereal into a battle in my head is that the Tau got caught with their trousers round their ankles in a major intel cock-up. Maybe a pathfinder left his laptop on the tube during his daily commute and a lucky ork just happened to be in the same carriage? My fluff gets a bit silly sometimes...


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

Maybe the tau are just really emotionally unstable, and need the ethereals like baby-sitters wherever they go?..


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## HUMYN HYBRID (Aug 9, 2011)

tabbytomo said:


> Maybe the tau are just really emotionally unstable, and need the ethereals like baby-sitters wherever they go?..



.............. bahahahahahahaha.... lolz


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## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

Only reason to put an ethereal on the table is because it is an objective marker.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

asianavatar said:


> Only reason to put an ethereal on the table is because it is an objective marker.


Exactly.

Was watching my friend (tyranid) play some tau guy. My friend requested his ethereal to be the objective marker for the match. The tau guy asked why, and my buddy said "because the space pope is delicious with barbeque sauce". 

Fluffy enough for me.


On the discussion of GK v. Daemon. I gave it 3 honest tries. Very honest tries. It just doesnt seem possible even if the GK is rolling below average. But hey, at least I'm not labeled as a whiney player or what have you because I gave it a go.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

King Gary said:


> Yup, the only way I can really fit an ethereal into a battle in my head is that the Tau got caught with their trousers round their ankles in a major intel cock-up. Maybe a pathfinder left his laptop on the tube during his daily commute and a lucky ork just happened to be in the same carriage? My fluff gets a bit silly sometimes...


Ahahahaaa!!! Sorry, this just made me a very giggly chap..... :laugh:


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

*Initiate rant*

Ok, here is my thing I don't get. You have, take space marine's for example, who fly light years to battle the hardiest foes in the known galaxy. Calgar, the head of the ultramarines, walks onto a battlefield, clad in nigh impenetrable terminator armour and decides "Hmmm, this helmet's kinda tight. I think I'll take it off."...

What the actual hell? Does nobody think about the possibility that a sniper might target them or an explosion might happen near them? Imperial guard or scouts I can understand. They don't get proper helmets so it's ok. But Space Marines? Cummon, they get the best armour the Imperium can offer and throw it away! In my opinion, if a model has a helmet and is not wearing it, they should only get a 5+ because any sensible foe would go "Hey, they don't have a helmet. Go for the head" or a lump of shrapnel from and explosion nearby might pierce their eye or something. 

It's just bloody stupid.

*End rant*


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## Sakura_ninja (Apr 29, 2012)

My recent gripe today.
Devlan mud ="d the greatest thing on earth
Agrax earthshade = ......I just ruined a £32 dust model because its thin as thin stuff and dries with massive water marks and white doodoos...thanks gw...you useless company

Language, Timothy!


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Deus Mortis said:


> *Initiate rant*
> 
> Ok, here is my thing I don't get. You have, take space marine's for example, who fly light years to battle the hardiest foes in the known galaxy. Calgar, the head of the ultramarines, walks onto a battlefield, clad in nigh impenetrable terminator armour and decides "Hmmm, this helmet's kinda tight. I think I'll take it off."...
> 
> ...


The only Space Marines that I opted for bare heads over helmets was my Death Company. And those guys are blood crazed fiends who would probably run through burning promethium to reach the enemy. Some do have helmets though because at the time I didn't have enough bare heads. As for my DE, the kits are actually not supplied with enough helmets to make all the Kabalite wearing one. Of course they have 5+ armor anyway.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Deus Mortis said:


> *Initiate rant*
> 
> Ok, here is my thing I don't get. You have, take space marine's for example, who fly light years to battle the hardiest foes in the known galaxy. Calgar, the head of the ultramarines, walks onto a battlefield, clad in nigh impenetrable terminator armour and decides "Hmmm, this helmet's kinda tight. I think I'll take it off."...
> 
> ...


Helmets are for pussies. Where do you think: And they shall know no fear comes from ? Sulking behind a helmet?

As for the leaders, how do you inspire the men with your casual disregard for the enemy with a bloody great helmet on?


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## InquisitorTidusSolomon (Mar 7, 2009)

Deus Mortis said:


> What the actual hell? Does nobody think about the possibility that a sniper might target them or an explosion might happen near them? Imperial guard or scouts I can understand. They don't get proper helmets so it's ok. But Space Marines? Cummon, they get the best armour the Imperium can offer and throw it away! In my opinion, if a model has a helmet and is not wearing it, they should only get a 5+ because any sensible foe would go "Hey, they don't have a helmet. Go for the head" or a lump of shrapnel from and explosion nearby might pierce their eye or something.


As Oz has already touched on, the biggest reason it's assumed they forgo wearing their helmets is to inspire the troops. Imagine the message it sends when your demigod of a commander strides forth from his tank with such utter contempt for his enemies that he assumes they won't be able to hit him in the head with their filthy, heretical weapons. And to be fair, most of the Astartes heroes without helmets are in Terminator armour (and hence have some sort of Invulnerable save) or else have a helmet on their person (Sicarius being the obvious example). 
As for the models that don't have Terminator armour and still feel the need to flaunt their nice, shiny noggins at the enemy, there are reasons:
*Tigurius*: Psychic as a motherfucker and is too busy channelling the powers of the warp to worry about a helmet.
*Cassius*: He's already mostly bionic. What does he care if the last 8% of his face gets scratched?
*Kor'sarro Khan*: He's a mongol. Would he really ever wear a helmet? :laugh:
*Astorath the Grim* and *Gabriel Seth*: They're both too pissed off to bother with helmets. Helmets are for bitches!
*Mephiston*: Same reason as Tigurius.
*Tycho*: Crazy as a loon and in the same position as Cassius. He's mostly metal already.
*Canis Wolfborn*: Everyone's too busy trying to shoot his wolf in the head to bother with him.
*Ragnar*: He eats bullets and craps thunder, so what does he care is someone shoots at his face? He's cocky enough to just laugh and swallow the damn thing.
*Helbrecht*: His prissy little headband protects him well enough.
*Sammael*: Rides a jetbike and doesn't afraid of anything.
*Ezekiel*: His hood and rebreather are close enough for all intents and purposes.

Lord, I really did just do that, didn't I? :shok:


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## HUMYN HYBRID (Aug 9, 2011)

haha, wow. i never thought my first official post would get this far... lolz... another topic i think i am a bit puzzled by is this.... ok, so the tau are supposedly the most effective with firepower, but lately, is it just me, or have the tau lost their edge over ranged combat?


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I imagine they do in fact wear helms in battle. 

As special characters however their models are portrayed helmetless. The face draws the eye in and stands out as detail. From an visual view it's more recognisable than another helmet. With a face you can add character and expression. It's purely for imagery.

-edit tau are a 4th ed codex, it's to be expected that their codex has lost it's shine and doesn't compare favourably to the newest stuff. They certainly were one of the shootiest armies in their day. I still remember the horror of everyone else when railguns were revealed.


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## InquisitorTidusSolomon (Mar 7, 2009)

The reason Tau suffer so badly in the shooting department is that they have the same BS as your average guardsman (that being a whopping 2). They're the best shooting force in the galaxy and yet the somehow barely know how to aim their fancy-ass rifles.

Edit - Rems: I'm aware that they usually do wear helmets in battle, but Calgar, for example, usually doesn't. I can't recall which of the Ultramarines books it is, but Calgar goes to battle to fight off the Tyranid fleet and he doesn't wear a helmet to battle, I imagine for my perviously stated reason about inspiring the troops. I'd actually be interested to see what kind of helmet he'd wear (a tradition Terminator helm or one more like those worn by his honour guard.)


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Ah i was unaware Calgar had been portrayed in any novels during battle. Hmm, that does seem a bit stupid. Though as you say inspiration likely comes into it. Probably also notions of honour and fighting enemies' 'face to face'. Does he have any kind of personal force field that seem so common in 40k? (other than terminator armour which some sources ascribe as projecting an actual force field whilst others that it's just increadibly tough armour)That would partly explain it.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Sakura_ninja said:


> My recent gripe today.
> Devlan mud ="d the greatest thing on earth
> Agrax earthshade = ......I just ruined a £32 dust model because its thin as thin stuff and dries with massive water marks and white doodoos...thanks gw...you useless company


I dont like devlan mud as a shading medium either, I prefer Vallejio Smokey Ink. This tends to be a more solid wash which can be watered down to suit. But devlan mud is excellent as a thinner when blending dark colours.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Rems said:


> Ah i was unaware Calgar had been portrayed in any novels during battle. Hmm, that does seem a bit stupid. Though as you say inspiration likely comes into it. Probably also notions of honour and fighting enemies' 'face to face'. Does he have any kind of personal force field that seem so common in 40k? (other than terminator armour which some sources ascribe as projecting an actual force field whilst others that it's just increadibly tough armour)That would partly explain it.


We seem to all be forgetting the Iron Halos and Rosarius. Who needs a helmet when you have a forcefield projector on your head, chest or shoulder? But my thought on the helmet is the enhanced auspex and sensors. Sure a Marine can see in the dark(at least in fluff) but the helmet would let them see so much better. Plus, I've read that it has warning displays if the proximity sensors detect an enemy behind you. 


And the Tau should have better BS, or at least when using a Markerlight. How can you miss with a tagging laser? I think a lot of people still fear Rail Cannons. Broadsides and Hammerheads are typically my primary target when fighting Tau. That does change once the Crisis Commander arrives though.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

With regard to helmets having sensors and such, I think it's mentioned in the Blood Reaver book of the Night Lords Trilogy that no easily portable, helmet-incorporated scanner can rival the superhuman senses of an Astartes. Melchiah takes his helmet off because he doesn't need the night vision and it adds nothing other than that. Lots of Marines don't like the taste of the air, either.

Midnight


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

Archon Dan said:


> We seem to all be forgetting the Iron Halos and Rosarius. Who needs a helmet when you have a forcefield projector on your head, chest or shoulder? But my thought on the helmet is the enhanced auspex and sensors. Sure a Marine can see in the dark(at least in fluff) but the helmet would let them see so much better. Plus, I've read that it has warning displays if the proximity sensors detect an enemy behind you.
> 
> 
> And the Tau should have better BS, or at least when using a Markerlight. How can you miss with a tagging laser? I think a lot of people still fear Rail Cannons. Broadsides and Hammerheads are typically my primary target when fighting Tau. That does change once the Crisis Commander arrives though.


Tau can get up to BS5 and can reduce cover saves when using Markerlights against a tagged unit. But that light is still held by someone who isn't some kind of ubershot. If anything the Markerlight should be Assault 1 (instead of Heavy 1) because it's a lightweight laserpointer/range finder and shouldn't be so hard to use. It'd make Tau a more mobile and tactically flexible army.

That or Markerlughts should become an upgrade for the weapons that make the firer count as 1 BS higher (as it's a laser dot). But we'll see eventually how GW will update this while thing I suppose.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> With regard to helmets having sensors and such, I think it's mentioned in the Blood Reaver book of the Night Lords Trilogy that no easily portable, helmet-incorporated scanner can rival the superhuman senses of an Astartes. Melchiah takes his helmet off because he doesn't need the night vision and it adds nothing other than that. Lots of Marines don't like the taste of the air, either.
> 
> Midnight


Don't like the taste of the air in their inclosed suits? So Marines don't like the taste of Marine you mean? True they don't need the night vision but a warning of somebody coming up behind you sure is nice. Some Marines get so focused on what's in front of them they may not be tuned into the rest of their surroundings. But a blip flashing in front of their eye to alert them to danger is good for anybody, even the superhuman.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

On the subject of WTF where they thinking I'm going to have to go with the Lack of Deep Strike protection in the Necron Codex.

About a 3rd of the Units can DS on their own. If you count in Despair Crypteks, and Dedicated Transports then your pushing about 70% of the Codex can DS.

I mean sure the Stromlord turns one of your opponents non-Vehicle units into a icon/beacon... but only for Flayed Ones, arguably the WORST unit in the Codex.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

I can see where a beacon of some kind would have been nice. But perhaps they did not want deep strike to be too powerful for Necrons. I think that since they simply phase from another dimension Deathmarks should scatter less. Sadly GW did not do that, probably because they can mark a unit to always wound on a 2+. But pairing them with a Veiltek is nice, not just for repeated teleporting but because the Hunters from Hyperspace rule lets the Cryptek's template weapon wound on a 2+, which is really nice since it rolls compared to Leadership and is only strength 8, so regularly wounding on 4+ or worse. Thank you FAQ!


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## bubbatheSmarine (May 17, 2012)

Not sure if this is a real rule, did not check his dex...but Dropoding Long Fangs with Multimeltas+ some Spec Char, (Logan Grimnar???) and lands in front of my two landraiders and BOOM 500 points gone. I was so pissed. so GW WHAT THE FUDGEEEEE were you thinking.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Drop podding MM Long Fangs is broken? Nay, it's expensive and specialised so would suck against horde armies considerably. Melta is designed to take out AV14 - you're just lucky he didn't do it with a much cheaper unit like a dread or land speeder (or sternguard for Vanilla). In fact, it's the best way of taking out land raiders.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

bubbatheSmarine said:


> Not sure if this is a real rule, did not check his dex...but Dropoding Long Fangs with Multimeltas+ some Spec Char, (Logan Grimnar???) and lands in front of my two landraiders and BOOM 500 points gone. I was so pissed. so GW WHAT THE FUDGEEEEE were you thinking.


Long Fangs have the ability to divide their shots (so shoot at two targets); Logan Grimnar allows the unit he joins to become relentless. completely legal, honestly i do not have any issue with the LF's being able to diverge fire; i have an issue with their point cost (compared to BA/SMs devastators)


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

Archon Dan said:


> I can see where a beacon of some kind would have been nice. But perhaps they did not want deep strike to be too powerful for Necrons. I think that since they simply phase from another dimension Deathmarks should scatter less. Sadly GW did not do that, probably because they can mark a unit to always wound on a 2+. But pairing them with a Veiltek is nice, not just for repeated teleporting but because the Hunters from Hyperspace rule lets the Cryptek's template weapon wound on a 2+, which is really nice since it rolls compared to Leadership and is only strength 8, so regularly wounding on 4+ or worse. Thank you FAQ!


Too powerful? You mean like BA 1d6 scatter on almost everything? or any SM drop pod that can only mishap if it scatters of the board? Or any of the Heroes (aka Named models) that can DS with out Scatter at all? or Mawlocs that get a large blast on a unit their DS onto? (er I don't know the full rules for that one)

If a Monolith couldn't mishap like a drop pod it wouldn't be that crazy because their pretty easy to blow up, compared to what they used to be.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Da Joka said:


> Too powerful? You mean like BA 1d6 scatter on almost everything? or any SM drop pod that can only mishap if it scatters of the board? Or any of the Heroes (aka Named models) that can DS with out Scatter at all? or Mawlocs that get a large blast on a unit their DS onto? (er I don't know the full rules for that one)
> 
> If a Monolith couldn't mishap like a drop pod it wouldn't be that crazy because their pretty easy to blow up, compared to what they used to be.


By that I meant that GW did not want Necron players to focus on DS. We can do it but it is risky. To have Deathmarks appear right where you want next to a marked unit is devastating, especially with a Despairtek. Scatter adds the chance of failure. A Monolith doesn't scatter like a Drop Pod because of the weapon systems. Drop Pod weapons are pretty awful but a S 8 AP 3 large blast is devastating. And Dante is the only codex character to completely negate Jump Pack scatter.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have something like a Locator Beacon that needs to already be in play and in a certain area to be effective, but that's just not how the army works. They have other things going for them.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

i still dont know how CSMs (generic versions of everything) forgot how to NOT get sweeping advanced.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

They've lost the guiding light of the Emperor?


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