# Big Shootas, Y or N?



## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Hello, 

Today I was thinking, are Big Shootas really worth it? Should I invest 15 points into a squad for another 9 str 5 shots? Well math-hammer is below, tell me what you think. This is against MEQ's

29 boyz /w shootas + nob /w slugga

59 shots
19.6666 hits
9.83333 wounds
3.27777 deaths

26 boyz /w shoots, nob /w slugga, 3 big shoots

26 boyz & nob

53 shots
17.6666 hits
8.83333 wounds
2.94444 deaths

Plus 3 big shootas

9 shots
3 hits
2 wounds
.6666 deaths

Grand Total - 3.6111 deaths

So we have boyz /w just shootas at 3.277 kills vs big shootas at 3.611 kills.

What does everyone think, is 15 points worth 0.3333 kills? At this point I would probably lean towards No, and looking elsewhere, using the 5 point Big Shootas to fill points at the end.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

In a SHOOTA Boyz mob, no, I wouldn't bother. Give them some Rokkit Launchas instead.

But for Slugga Boyz, they can give the squad something to do besides runnign one inch on turn one.


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## Vashtek (Nov 2, 2007)

What you are missing is that big shootas have 36" range. I pretty much always uppgrade my mobs to carry big shootas (unless they are in trukks) as sometimes you need to stay still to hang onto objectives and those multiple str 5 shots can really help.

I actually put rokkits in slugga mobs and big shootas in shoota mobs. Reason for this? Rokkits want to shoot at tanks, shootas want to go against infantry. That way if I 've got orks mobs not running around (rare) I can shoot the sluggas with rokkits at rhinos and the shootas with big shootas at infantry. This way I don't waste shoota shots at tanks.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Vashtek said:


> This way I don't waste shoota shots at tanks.


If my Slugga Mob is within 24" of a tank, they're probably running right at it. :wink:

A'course, I don;t use Rokkit Launchas on tanks- they're for taking potshots at IC and MC while I wait for the Power Klaw to get into range.


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## Spot The Grot (Jul 15, 2008)

Surely they must be best in a unit of shootas as it gives them some more power , bullets and range . As its assault guns it doesn't ruin the fact that shootas are assault guns. A healthy unit of 20 with 2 big shootas is making 36 S4 shots as 18" and another 6 S5 at 36".


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Are the shootas really shooting that many shots, that seem like a rapid fire unit at close range? I tought they were assaut guns much like DAs guns but with 1 less shot? Or do they actually shoot just as much as the pointy eared clowns?

Why the hell doesnt my local Ork opponent field shooty boys if they shoot that much??!?:shok:

Anyways it doesnt seem like much points for it so it should be worth it. Higher S gives better chances against higher T opponents, and when talking costs on the same level as 1 Loota-boy it seems quite worth it to me. More shots = more possible wounds = more dead enemies :biggrin:


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## Lord_Murdock (Jul 16, 2008)

I'd say a definite yes. Weapons that can still peg off opponents almost the entire board away even while the owner is falling back are good. They're nice and cheap too, so I like them a lot. Even with an ork's poor BS, if you unload 60+ shots at some poor fool you're going to do some damage!


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

MaidenM, don't confuse the shootas and the big shootas. Most of those shots are coming from the ordinary shootas, which are free. The Big shootas are the ones giving the 6 shots at 36".

Good point from Lord M re: shooting as they run away. A real strength of Big Shootas is that you can almost always fire them. Running or being in cc are the only thing likely to prevent that. You tend to get good value from anything that gets used many times in a game.


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## Vashtek (Nov 2, 2007)

Cole Deschain said:


> If my Slugga Mob is within 24" of a tank, they're probably running right at it. :wink:
> 
> A'course, I don;t use Rokkit Launchas on tanks- they're for taking potshots at IC and MC while I wait for the Power Klaw to get into range.


Sometimes, like I said, you need to sit on an objective while your nobs tear up the enemy. Power klaws are ok, but often vehicles wil be moving 12" or faster so you will have difficulty catching up or be hitting on a 6. Anyway, with what I do you get both options. If you don't upgrade you only have the klaw option.

More options= better.


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## solitaire (Mar 24, 2008)

Yeah Shoota mobs should always be given Big Shootas. For example the teacher who runs my school club recently started an Ork army and he has used Big Shootas to effectively smash up enemy Land Speeders and *sigh* my War Walkers, as unbelievable as it sounds. . .


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## Spot The Grot (Jul 15, 2008)

solitaire said:


> Yeah Shoota mobs should always be given Big Shootas. For example the teacher who runs my school club recently started an Ork army and he has used Big Shootas to effectively smash up enemy Land Speeders and *sigh* my War Walkers, as unbelievable as it sounds. . .


As strange as it does sound big shootas do buff up the anti tank very slightly when it comes to killing light tanks.But rokkits are obviously still better.But with a big shoota you lose none of the infantry killing power.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Crimzzen said:


> .6666 deaths


Average cost of a marine: 16 points
Cost to kill a marine 2/3 of the time: 15 points(at 36")


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## orky1 (Oct 16, 2008)

I like using a 20+ shoota squad with 2 big shootas. Even with our crappy BS were bound to get 8-10 hits


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Lord_Murdock said:


> I'd say a definite yes. Weapons that can still peg off opponents almost the entire board away even while the owner is falling back are good. They're nice and cheap too, so I like them a lot. Even with an ork's poor BS, if you unload 60+ shots at some poor fool you're going to do some damage!





Someguy said:


> MaidenM, don't confuse the shootas and the big shootas. Most of those shots are coming from the ordinary shootas, which are free. The Big shootas are the ones giving the 6 shots at 36".
> 
> Good point from Lord M re: shooting as they run away. A real strength of Big Shootas is that you can almost always fire them. Running or being in cc are the only thing likely to prevent that. You tend to get good value from anything that gets used many times in a game.


Critical thinking on big shootas, I've come to the following;

Even with a full 3 big shootas, we are only talking .666 wounds. IE you need at least 2 rounds of shooting to kill one marine and make back their points, or in terms of equivalent points per round, you need to allocate 30 points to kill 1 marine. In an average game length of 6, this works out to 3 marines assuming that you shoot them every round (IE, no running/CC). This is just in consideration of 1 unit, most ppl run at least 2 large squads, so really we're talking 30 points OR MORE. To me, I'd rather have another PK somewhere (14.9 points to kill 1 marine), or another 5 boyz, or a warbiker. 

In the grand scheme of things, we are only gaining .333 kills or 9.2% more killing power. Is this worth 15 points. Hypothetically, with 15 points we could increase our boy count by 2.5 boyz essentially working out to .27777 kills, But we are also gaining bodies here. (IE is 2 bodies worth .056 in killing power?)



solitaire said:


> Yeah Shoota mobs should always be given Big Shootas. For example the teacher who runs my school club recently started an Ork army and he has used Big Shootas to effectively smash up enemy Land Speeders and *sigh* my War Walkers, as unbelievable as it sounds. . .


My argument here is that people always remember the "Big Kills," because they're just that rare. The # of War Walker kills that 3 big shootas could achieve:
3 hits
.999 wounds... For argument sake we'll assume at least 1 wound. (also consider that war walkers are smaller and could potentially have a cover save). 
.333 kills - However, for this I will assume that it is impossible to blow up a war walker on a glance, so essentially;
.166 kills or roughly a 4.5% increase in efficiency. Again, IMHO, this is still not worth it and I would rather a PK.

Anyways, the above are just my 2 cents after some reflection - I hope someone can counter-argue me and let me put my big shootas into tourney use.... I simply use them for fun now.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

You are considering against MEQ. Now work out against a guardsmen or another ork or something like that. Your payback rate will dramaticly increase.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> You are considering against MEQ. Now work out against a guardsmen or another ork or something like that. Your payback rate will dramaticly increase.


Well, MEQ I believe is the most common save out there as well as stats, so the arguement is well based against MEQ's HOWEVER, against say something like a firewarrior, T3 4+ we *ACTUALLY get a worse payback*...

29 shootas + nob slugga:

shots: 59
hits: 19.66666667
wounds: 13.11111111
kills: 6.555555556

26 shootas + nob slugga + 3 Big Shootas

shootas + nob

shots: 53
hits: 17.66666667
wounds: 11.77777778
kills: 5.888888889

Big Shootas

shots: 9
hits: 3
wounds: 2.5
kills: 1.25

grand total = 7.133 kills

which results in an increase of .58333 kills...

HOWEVER, when you look at the increase as a percentage, .58333 kills is only 8.17% which is actually a *decrease* from 9.2 of 1.03%. 

This is due to the fact that as a units toughness goes down, the 'effectiveness' of our guns is increased, but because there are more shootas than Big Shootas, we notice a greater gain in shoota effectiveness which actually outweighs the gains of the Big shootas. Big shootas do get better as we fight against higher toughness targets but due to them being woefully inaccurate, their percent kill is still low and imho, ultimately not worth it.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Vashtek said:


> Sometimes, like I said, you need to sit on an objective while your nobs tear up the enemy.


The solution there is more mobs- and ergo, more Nobs.

Holding objectives is seldom a problem for Orks in sufficient numbers.



> Power klaws are ok, but often vehicles wil be moving 12" or faster so you will have difficulty catching up or be hitting on a 6.


Hasn't proven difficult yet, but then again, we don;t go really vehicle-heavy around here.

And if it moved 12", it's not going to be shooting much unless it's "Fast."

And if it's Fast, well, that's why Gork (or was it Mork) made Lootas.

Or a Trukk with a Wreckin' ball.

A maximum of THREE shots that hit on 5s are a piss-poor way to "insure" against tanks.



> More options= better.


Which is why my Shoota mobs, which usually try to close to 18 inches, pack rokkit launchas.

Since the Slugga Boyz are going to be chasing infantry (for the most part) anyway, something to soften up their targets before they arrive is very much in order.

And in THAT case, more shots = better.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Cole Deschain said:


> Which is why my Shoota mobs, which usually try to close to 18 inches, pack rokkit launchas.
> 
> Since the Slugga Boyz are going to be chasing infantry (for the most part) anyway, something to soften up their targets before they arrive is very much in order.
> 
> And in THAT case, more shots = better.


I think you're talking about packing Big Shootas here, ergo the increase in shots... But is an additional 3 shots really worth 15 points (I know you're getting 9 big shoota shots here but the net gain is only 3 - talking strictly rate of fire here)?

I mean with Ork BS, you're really only gaining 1 hit. 

To me orks play as primarily a CC army which can be *supplemented* with shooting. The ork mentality is _accuracy_ by _volume_, hence putting shootas in large footsloggin ork mobz (putting out 50+ shots a turn). However, I don't think I believe in paying for upgrades for an army who's primary focus is not shooting but rather smashing face. It's for this reason I have no problems shelling out 25$ per nob to give him/her a PK, or upgrading my deff dread with CC Dreadnought weapons. However, I get very hesitant when I start spending points on something orks are not good at. Now if there was an option to upgrade EVERY Big Shoota in my footsloggin mobs, that would be a consideration as it would be a considerable boost to ROF - however 3 additional shots doesn't seem to do much good.

Haha, anyways, that's enough late night rambling, good to see we have some good discussion going though!


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## Vashtek (Nov 2, 2007)

Cole Deschain said:


> The solution there is more mobs- and ergo, more Nobs.
> 
> 
> And if it moved 12", it's not going to be shooting much unless it's "Fast."
> ...


Add up all the points you spend on big shootas and see how many nob mobz/ extra boyz mobz you get. It's not that many.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Vashtek said:


> Add up all the points you spend on big shootas and see how many nob mobz/ extra boyz mobz you get. It's not that many.


Since I don't run Nob Mobs, that's largely irrelevant to me, but for the sake or argument-

One thing I'm NOT hurting for is points. In no small part because each Big Shoota costs less than one Boy. A Rokkit Launcha is more than a Boy and half.

I know which one I prefer to invest in when it comes to boots on the ground- which are the final arbiter in Ork Mobs.

If you run even four Mobs with PK Nobs, you have ample close combat anti-tank if it comes down to it, and anything too speedy gets a Trukk riding drogue on it or gets lit up by a swarm of Lootas.

Glances may not be able to kill outright anymore, but if you immobilize a vehicle and strip away all its weapons, it may as well be dead.




Crimzzen said:


> I think you're talking about packing Big Shootas here, ergo the increase in shots... But is an additional 3 shots really worth 15 points (I know you're getting 9 big shoota shots here but the net gain is only 3 - talking strictly rate of fire here)?


Not in a Slugga Mob. Their net gain is six shots, and at greater range and strength.

I fully advocate Rokkit Launchas for Shoota Boyz because they have the option of engaging at longer ranges without wasting the squad altogether, and their volume of fire is high enough already.


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## azalin_r3x (Feb 25, 2008)

Have in mind though that whatever special weapon you field, it is gonna be the last to get a wound allocated. So they are gonna last longer and in small numbers they will make a bigger difference. 

Now another question... Would you get a rokkit in each squad to discourage tank shocks on objectives you hold? (obviously so you wont have to risk the klaw which ofcourse i know has much more chances of doing something to the tank)


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## lordbloodshed (Dec 14, 2008)

big shootas are only good as anti infantry the extra fire power for orks is a necesity i would say go off your opponent on which to use same with the shoota or slugga boyz and just determine by wheather they use vehicles alot or not and if you are still uneasy go with big shootas and have tank bustas as your anti vehicle unit instead of a multipupose unit of boyz there you have a guarented three rocket launchas depending on how you point and they have to shoot at vehicles any way the only unit that may work better is a 5 strong copta unit with twinlinked rockits 

we da orks we always win especialy when we win


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Just pointing out that a Rokkit has the exact same chance at destroying a tank as a Power Klaw.


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## lordbloodshed (Dec 14, 2008)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Just pointing out that a Rokkit has the exact same chance at destroying a tank as a Power Klaw.


i agree but actually they stand a better plus one because it counts as and ap one weapon but this is were i dont like it explosions even with eavy armour it still does not end well for orks only mega armour stands that good of a chance and that would be a waste of space if you are using meganobz for just anti vehicle and tank hammers work even better strength ten and the fact the unit under own discresion may have a power claw and to top it all off the squigs only purpose is to keep your hands clean just keep vehicles away far away you dont want it to back fire on you did once on me lost my dreadnaught for it only a one can do that for you then two sixes in a row after that on the damage table did not help you do the math


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Just pointing out that a Rokkit has the exact same chance at destroying a tank as a Power Klaw.


No, how did you come to this??? With a rokkit your most likely either going to hit front or side armour. Lets give you the benefit of the doubt and assume side armour - 12.

1 rokkit
0.3333 hits
0.1111 wounds
0.037033333 tanks destroyed

1 PK - I'll assume a nob. Str 9 on the charge /w 4 attacks. Assuming the tank moved 6" Assault always hits rear armour which is assumed to be 10 in most cases.
4 swings
2 hits
1.666666667 wounds
0.555555556 tanks destroyed

PK is VASTLY superior at destroying a tank assuming in combat.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

lordbloodshed said:


> i agree but actually they stand a better plus one because it counts as and ap one weapon but this is were i dont like it explosions even with eavy armour it still does not end well for orks only mega armour stands that good of a chance and that would be a waste of space if you are using meganobz for just anti vehicle and tank hammers work even better strength ten and the fact the unit under own discresion may have a power claw and to top it all off the squigs only purpose is to keep your hands clean just keep vehicles away far away you dont want it to back fire on you did once on me lost my dreadnaught for it only a one can do that for you then two sixes in a row after that on the damage table did not help you do the math


Hi there, welcome to Heresy... Just for further posts, please attempt punctuational and grammar. These things make reading for everyone else a lot easier.

I think you're saying that Power Klaws count as AP1 here, I'm curious as to where you found this because I cannot find it.

Also, a vehicle exploding needs 5's to wound an ork, I find blowing a vehicle and losing a few orks is well worth it. Your nob /w 2 wounds most likely won't die to the blast.


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## lordbloodshed (Dec 14, 2008)

Crimzzen said:


> Hi there, welcome to Heresy... Just for further posts, please attempt punctuational and grammar. These things make reading for everyone else a lot easier.
> 
> I think you're saying that Power Klaws count as AP1 here, I'm curious as to where you found this because I cannot find it.
> 
> Also, a vehicle exploding needs 5's to wound an ork, I find blowing a vehicle and losing a few orks is well worth it. Your nob /w 2 wounds most likely won't die to the blast.


big deal i'm new to the site. But power weapons count as ap 1 weapons it in the rules saw it the other day, argument brought up a ruling on it in a game i was in. As for the close combat part yes it is hard to hurt an ork but you forget one of the vehicles you will be facing is dreadnaughts and in an even larger scale, titans.


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## sooch (Nov 25, 2008)

lordbloodshed said:


> big deal i'm new to the site. But power weapons count as ap 1 weapons it in the rules saw it the other day, argument brought up a ruling on it in a game i was in. As for the close combat part yes it is hard to hurt an ork but you forget one of the vehicles you will be facing is dreadnaughts and in an even larger scale, titans.


So wrong. There is no AP value in close combat, either it ignores armor saves or it doesn't. There is no AP1 CCW, and there is no AP6 CCW.

The second part of your post about titans and dreads is totally irrelevant.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Crimzzen said:


> No, how did you come to this??? With a rokkit your most likely either going to hit front or side armour. Lets give you the benefit of the doubt and assume side armour - 12.
> 
> 1 rokkit
> 0.3333 hits
> ...


I was talking in reference to Death or Glory, as in the post before mine. Each has ONE attack at S8. 

Also Power weapons are NOT AP1. Period.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Just pointing out that a Rokkit has the exact same chance at destroying a tank as a Power Klaw.


Incorrect.

A Boyz Nob may fire a maximum of three Rokkits at any given tank, which will only hit on 5s or 6s.

A Power Klaw on a Charging Nob gets four chances to hit, and, on the charge, its Strength is one higher thanks to FC.

And barring Tank Shock or getting charged by a Walker of some kind, a Nob wil ALWAYS be charging when he engages a vehicle in close combat.

Furthermore, most vehicles move a maximum of 6" if they're going to fire any weapons, meaning that the Nob has a better chance of HITTING than a Boy with a Rokkit.

Don't bother with Death or Glory if you can simply get out of the way and then charge the tank on your next turn.

Simple.

After all, it no more of a waste to have 27 models in a Mob fire Shootas or Sluggas at a tank than it is to have the whole mob charge into assault.

In this day and age of assaulting rear armor, it's actualyl BETTER, beacuse a charging Boy can glance a great many vehicles with his FC Strength boost.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Cole, read the post before yours


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## azalin_r3x (Feb 25, 2008)

Yeap i was mistaken, in the last tournament i played the judges said that close combat weapon on a tank shock hits the rear armor, which ofcourse now i see in the rulebook that is incorrect.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

The comparison of PKs and rockets having the same chance was in death or glory, where you get a single attack that automatically hits. It's true that in this case each would do the same thing.

Obviously the chances are different in other situations. The charging nob with PK has 4 attacks at str 9, which is going to cause a lot of damage. On the other hand, he has to get to the vehicle and may need a 6 to hit if it is moving fast. Tricky to make a direct comparison.

In truth, neither is all that effective. Rockets give you a chance to stop vehicles, but not a big chance. PKs will smash stuff if you can get to it, but by that time the game is often won or lost. PKs do nothing to stop enemy transports moving around and deploying stuff to shoot up your guys, where rockets might do something.

What does work reliably are lootas. They basically work on everything with armour <14.


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## Vashtek (Nov 2, 2007)

This thread seems to have derailed somewhat. The original question was whether big shootas are worth the extra 5 points. In my opinion, the answer is most assuredly 'yes'. The amount of times a rogue big shoota has taken the last wound off a daemon prince/ carnifex, immobilised a rhino, stopped a speeder from shooting, killed the last marine in a squad netting me a KP etc etc. means I don't hesitate to take them.

Lootas are good, but they can only shoot at 1 thing every turn for each loota squad.

Partially, it depends on your army. If your plan is to take a whole bunch of orks and fleet every turn then they might be less good (though I'd probably still take them). If you favour the shooty whilst still being dead 'ard approach (as I do) then big shootas are gold.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Vashtek said:


> This thread seems to have derailed somewhat. The original question was whether big shootas are worth the extra 5 points. In my opinion, the answer is most assuredly 'yes'. The amount of times a rogue big shoota has taken the last wound off a daemon prince/ carnifex, immobilised a rhino, stopped a speeder from shooting, killed the last marine in a squad netting me a KP etc etc. means I don't hesitate to take them.
> 
> Lootas are good, but they can only shoot at 1 thing every turn for each loota squad.
> 
> Partially, it depends on your army. If your plan is to take a whole bunch of orks and fleet every turn then they might be less good (though I'd probably still take them). If you favour the shooty whilst still being dead 'ard approach (as I do) then big shootas are gold.


It's awesome that they work so well for you... I guess my question to you would be, for the X points you spend on Big Shootas, could you buy something else that would be better at the above things you mentioned?


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

Vashtek said:


> This thread seems to have derailed somewhat. The original question was whether big shootas are worth the extra 5 points. In my opinion, the answer is most assuredly 'yes'. The amount of times a rogue big shoota has taken the last wound off a daemon prince/ carnifex, immobilised a rhino, stopped a speeder from shooting, killed the last marine in a squad netting me a KP etc etc. means I don't hesitate to take them.
> 
> Lootas are good, but they can only shoot at 1 thing every turn for each loota squad.


And on THAT, if nothing else, we agree 100%



Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Cole, read the post before yours


If it had made any difference to my reply, I would have said so.


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