# Angel Exterminatus (Spoilers)



## Words_of_Truth

Loads of spoilers in this post, it's kind of a review but an informal one.


Just finished it and it was a very enjoyable read. I like the links it has to 40k although I've not read the series which it relates to, I could appreciate the implications.

The idea behind Perturabo's turn is simple at first but slowly you find he has lots of layers that lead me to relate to him greatly and because of this I now understand why he turned but also that with a bit more interaction with the Emperor, he could have easily stayed loyal. 

I don't think his hatred of Dorn came across well though, it seemed too similar to Lorgar's perceived slights that Guilliman had thrown his way. Perturabo seemed angry at a lot of the other legions but he chose to focus on Dorn because well, they shared a similar theatre is all that it came down to for me. I think more needs to be put in here, it really appears to similar to the Word Bearers and Ultramarines for my liking.

Each character was quite well done, including for the most part the Iron Hands who, imo, retrieved a bit of their dignity after their previous outings and 40k novels. The lunatic iron father came close to following their previous examples of stupidity though.

I love the Raven Guard, I mean I really do, I just hope he wasn't on the receiving end of lucius's special ability, because he was pure awesome.


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## Brother Lucian

Lucius' special ability triggers when an opponent takes pleasure in killing him, and that the RG clearly did not. But Slaanesh apperently did not want to loose him and gave him a free pass from death.

But yeah, Peturabo's brooding nature probably led him to imagine all sorts of slights from Dorn. And I seem to remember a passage somewhere, where Peturabo spewed a high amount of vitriol at Dorn becaue he claimed noone could breach the Imperial Palace. Also, his weapon Forgebreaker, wasnt that the hammer forged by Fulgrim and given to Ferrus Manus? I know Peturabo got the hammer from Horus. Cue possible taint in it to magnify his worries is my belief.


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## Words_of_Truth

I don't think the hammer was tainted, Perturabo was had already turned by the time he got the hammer after the istvaan massacre.

There were points in the story I didn't understand after finishing the book because they weren't answered, such as Ferrus keeps popping up in mirrors to fulgrim, there was the detail shown of Ferrus when he landed on Medusa. 

I hope that the captain they were trying to save shows up later to see whether he made it or not. I don't get the plan the eldar had, it made no sense unless they truly thought two legions were completely stupid and incompetent.

The Raven Guard was absolutely badass, it was so cool seeing lucius finally put in his place and to a raven guard as well, I mean before the HH they weren't really respected as fighters, mainly infiltrators and ambushers, but since the HH series it's been made clear that they are great close combatants.

I still dislike the idea of Salamanders having pure black skin with red eyes which apparently can see through shadows easier than most marines, I thought that was the Night Lords special thing.

I'm so glad the Iron Hands are fighting back, I'm just not so sure I can bring myself to like any more than I do due to the damage in previous novels and the most recent 40k stories.


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## Brother Lucian

Yes, the display of Ferrus's arrival on Medusa seemed completely irrelevant to the story. Yes, we get to see how the Iron Hands reacts to the passing of their primarch and the beginning splintering of the legion.

Though i thought it a neat point that Fulgrim was haunted by the specter of Ferrus.

Regarding the eldar guides. They were druchii and as I could surmise, their aim was to use the two forces to break open Lydris to allow them to abscond with a planet's worth of waystones to stave off the souldrain of the druchii in commoragh, which will have such terrible influences on them over the next 10k years. But they had not counted on Fulgrim offering them all up in sacrifice to Slaanesh.


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## Svartmetall

I'm not buying a hardback, it's just too expensive - once the paperback's out I'll get it.


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## dark angel

Svartmetall said:


> I'm not buying a hardback, it's just too expensive - once the paperback's out I'll get it.


^ This.

I'm interested, though - What's the name of the Raven Guard?


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## Words_of_Truth

Nykona Sharrowkyn


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## MontytheMighty

Words_of_Truth said:


> I don't think his hatred of Dorn came across well though, it seemed too similar to Lorgar's perceived slights that Guilliman had thrown his way. Perturabo seemed angry at a lot of the other legions but he chose to focus on Dorn because well, they shared a similar theatre is all that it came down to for me. I think more needs to be put in here, it really appears to similar to the Word Bearers and Ultramarines for my liking.


Do you have some ideas of your own? Would be interesting to hear them



> I love the Raven Guard, I mean I really do, I just hope he wasn't on the receiving end of lucius's special ability, because he was pure awesome.


What rank was he? Do we know who the Raven Guard's first captain is (either Heresy-era or current)?



> I'm so glad the Iron Hands are fighting back, I'm just not so sure I can bring myself to like any more than I do due to the damage in previous novels and the most recent 40k stories.


Sadly, inflexible, dull-witted and being [email protected] by the EC seems to be their theme. I did like Wrath of Iron though. 

The Clan Leader's battle with Julius Kaesoron was epic, especially how he wins




> Nykona Sharrowkyn


A bit too feminine for my taste


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## Words_of_Truth

MontytheMighty said:


> Do you have some ideas of your own? Would be interesting to hear them
> 
> What rank was he? Do we know who the Raven Guard's first captain is (either Heresy-era or current)?
> 
> Sadly, inflexible, dull-witted and being [email protected] by the EC seems to be their theme. I did like Wrath of Iron though.
> 
> The Clan Leader's battle with Julius Kaesoron was epic, especially how he wins
> 
> 
> A bit too feminine for my taste


On the topic of Dorn and Perturabo, something drastic should of happened between them, there's so much vitriol thrown at the Imperial Fists way that something should've plainly occurred rather than the current situation which is the Iron Warriors hating the so called "Boastful Dorn" who took loads of credit including having the flag of the fists over an alien stronghold after it was the Iron Warriors who did all the work. Think this is referring to the picture from the Index Astartes articles for the Iron Warriors.










I know the two scrapped after Dorn stated if he was manning the Emperor's Palace no one could penetrate it, but it still appears to be jealousy, perceived slights and the anger at being used to garrison worlds that makes up the majority of Perturabo's anger at them.

It's surely one of the top legion rivalries but it's too much like the Ultramarines and Word Bearers for my liking.

To be honest, the Iron Hands come out better overall from this story vs the Emperor's Children, there's a distinct funny moment with a death Iron Hand which is absolutely awesome and hilarious at the same time.

I don't know the rank of the Raven Guard, but the ship they are on is Iron Hands and Iron Father Wayland demands the use of ranks and titles to keep the structure intact but I don't think the Raven Guard is ever called by one, however he's distinctly awesome, wields a pair of black blades and goes to toe with Lucius twice with an eventual conclusion as well.


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## MontytheMighty

Brother Lucian said:


> Lucius' special ability triggers when an opponent takes pleasure in killing him, and that the RG clearly did not. But Slaanesh apperently did not want to loose him and gave him a free pass from death.




So you're saying the Raven killed Lucius, took no pleasure in the act, but Slaanesh saved/resurrected Lucius anyway?




Words_of_Truth said:


> To be honest, the Iron Hands come out better overall from this story vs the Emperor's Children, there's a distinct funny moment with a death Iron Hand which is absolutely awesome and hilarious at the same time.


Uh...the Iron Hands look better because one of them dies funnily?


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## Brother Lucian

Lucius does not return by possessing someone like in his background, he simply wakes up from being cold and stiff much to Fabius' suprise.


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## Words_of_Truth

MontytheMighty said:


> So you're saying the Raven killed Lucius, took no pleasure in the act, but Slaanesh saved/resurrected Lucius anyway?
> 
> 
> Uh...the Iron Hands look better because one of them dies funnily?


Nah, because one of the lieutenants of Fulgrim uses his sonic weaponry/implants on the Iron Hand but kind Iron Hand goes "What did you say?" before using a finally charged Volkite weapon to kill Emperor's Children. It's just funny to me, it's not only that though there's more but I don't want to spoil too much but I definitely think the Iron Hands in general come off a lot better than the Emperor's Children.

As to Lucius waking up without possessing Sharrowkyn, I don't know, it could have something to do with what happened to Fulgrim. I don't think Sharrowkyn is mentioned though which has me worried that it occurred but Lucius just hadn't noticed it.


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## Lupe

Words_of_Truth said:


> As to Lucius waking up without possessing Sharrowkyn, I don't know, it could have something to do with what happened to Fulgrim. I don't think Sharrowkyn is mentioned though which has me worried that it occurred but Lucius just hadn't noticed it.


I could see Slaanesh giving him the power as a result of this incident, so as not to actively bother to ressurect him in the future...


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## Brother Lucian

Lupe said:


> I could see Slaanesh giving him the power as a result of this incident, so as not to actively bother to ressurect him in the future...


Lucius was clearly carried away cold and dead, and waking up much to Fabius' suprise and interest when Lucius states death didnt want him.


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## Garrak

Yeah I'll wait for the paperback. That's a lot of money for this.


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## Lupe

Ok, since you'regiving away spoilers here, I have a few questions for those of you who already got your copies

1. Forrix. In Storm of Iron, he's described as a man who no longer cares about a cause or feels anything. Do we get to see him as a younger, more idealist version, or is he already the jaded veteran from SoI?

2. Perturabo's martial skills. Does he get any spectacular fight moments?

3. Humour / wit. Any good quotes on that vein?

4. Olympia. Any background into what it was like before Perturabo? And what changed since he landed there?


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## Words_of_Truth

1. Forrix is the first captain who is meticulous in planning things, he gets really annoyed when his plans go wrong or they get behind schedule. He's very solid and very honourable, I think he does care about things, I've not read Storm of Iron so I can't really compare.

2. Yeah but only mostly against marines, he does beat the hell out of Fulgrim at one point for the way Fulgrim has acted but it's more of a surprise beat down.

3. There's a part with a deaf Iron Warrior who cracks me up, think I already mentioned this. The Iron Hands elderly Iron Father is very witty and surprisingly humourous for a Iron Hands, but he's like a mad scientist.

4. There's a good amount of it's background it resembles ancient greece/rome it has 12 city states and has a lot of the old greece like myth gods and heros in it's background.

Here's one some people may want to know, you find out who "The Warsmith" is.


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## Lupe

Damn it, pay day can't come soon enough...


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## piemelke

in the chapters due Graham portrayed some true ninja type raven guard, very awesome, especially compared to the naive bunch portrayed by Gav in deliverance lost, I look forwards to Graham writing a series on the raven guard


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## Brother Lucian

Words_of_Truth said:


> 1. Forrix is the first captain who is meticulous in planning things, he gets really annoyed when his plans go wrong or they get behind schedule. He's very solid and very honourable, I think he does care about things, I've not read Storm of Iron so I can't really compare.
> 
> 2. Yeah but only mostly against marines, he does beat the hell out of Fulgrim at one point for the way Fulgrim has acted but it's more of a surprise beat down.
> 
> 3. There's a part with a deaf Iron Warrior who cracks me up, think I already mentioned this. The Iron Hands elderly Iron Father is very witty and surprisingly humourous for a Iron Hands, but he's like a mad scientist.
> 
> 4. There's a good amount of it's background it resembles ancient greece/rome it has 12 city states and has a lot of the old greece like myth gods and heros in it's background.
> 
> Here's one some people may want to know, you find out who "The Warsmith" is.


Forrix have drive and is a planner in the story, but the constant friction and backstabbing leaves him a burned out shadow by the end. Something which he appearently carries for 10.000 years, one heck of a depression!

And yep, the 'warsmith' from storm of iron is revealed.


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## MontytheMighty

Words_of_Truth said:


> As to Lucius waking up without possessing Sharrowkyn, I don't know, it could have something to do with what happened to Fulgrim. I don't think Sharrowkyn is mentioned though which has me worried that it occurred but Lucius just hadn't noticed it.





Brother Lucian said:


> Lucius was clearly carried away cold and dead, and waking up much to Fabius' suprise and interest when Lucius states death didnt want him.


Hmm...but if the Raven kills Lucius and Lucius possesses the Raven, Lucius' old body would still be lying around. However it seems that the Raven kills Lucius, the Raven then leaves the scene, they carry Lucius away and he somehow revives


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## Words_of_Truth

Was he carried away though? It makes no mention of it, the last you see of lucius is him dying after Sharrowkyn put his two blades through his gorget in an execution style. I can't really say what happens next as it massively spoils the book, but he's definitely not carried away. The raven also said "I take no pleasure in this, you're just a rabid dog who needs to be put down" so if Lucius's ability feeds off the pleasure of him being killed then I do think the Raven Guard may of survived.

Btw the Raven Guard is listed as a normal marine of the 66th company, no title or anything.


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## Brother Lucian

Words_of_Truth said:


> Was he carried away though? It makes no mention of it, the last you see of lucius is him dying after Sharrowkyn put his two blades through his gorget in an execution style. I can't really say what happens next as it massively spoils the book, but he's definitely not carried away. The raven also said "I take no pleasure in this, you're just a rabid dog who needs to be put down" so if Lucius's ability feeds off the pleasure of him being killed then I do think the Raven Guard may of survived.
> 
> Btw the Raven Guard is listed as a normal marine of the 66th company, no title or anything.


Fabius says that fulgrim bought lucius to him, and by then he was cold and dead.


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## NiceGuyEddy

Just started the book.

Early on Perterabo mentions he built a prison for the Night Lords to contain a "Uniquely capable prisoner".

Who? Do we find out in this book?


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## Brother Lucian

NiceGuyEddy said:


> Just started the book.
> 
> Early on Perterabo mentions he built a prison for the Night Lords to contain a "Uniquely capable prisoner".
> 
> Who? Do we find out in this book?


That one remains a mystery, sadly.


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## Words_of_Truth

It was less of a prison more of a hunting ground, but I have no idea who its for.


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## ckcrawford

Words_of_Truth said:


> It was less of a prison more of a hunting ground, but I have no idea who its for.


Me..........................


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## Liliedhe

G The "uniquely capable prisoner" is an interesting hint. 

My first idea was Vulkan, of course. But then I thought it through and I think it is more likely it was supposed to be Corax - he was on Isstvan for a long time and they could assume they'd catch him eventually. And he sure makes more sense for his gaoler to have sport with than Vulkan, who I think would not play.


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## Brother Lucian

Liliedhe said:


> G The "uniquely capable prisoner" is an interesting hint.
> 
> My first idea was Vulkan, of course. But then I thought it through and I think it is more likely it was supposed to be Corax - he was on Isstvan for a long time and they could assume they'd catch him eventually. And he sure makes more sense for his gaoler to have sport with than Vulkan, who I think would not play.


Corax escapes the Istvaan dropsite massacre. So it could be Vulkan, as his fate is unaccounted for.


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## Liliedhe

Yes, Corax escaped, after nearly a hundred days of being hunted. And during that time, Pertie might have built the labyrinth to hold him, once they catch him. Which then did not happen. But does Perturabo know that? Or did he maybe leave Isstvan before those hundred days were over?


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## Brother Lucian

Liliedhe said:


> Yes, Corax escaped, after nearly a hundred days of being hunted. And during that time, Pertie might have built the labyrinth to hold him, once they catch him. Which then did not happen. But does Perturabo know that? Or did he maybe leave Isstvan before those hundred days were over?


well Corax's story is pretty much established, with how he finally disappears after the Horus Heresy. Vulkan is far more of an enigma


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## Words_of_Truth

Was it made after the Massacre?

I dunno if Perturabo would assist Konrad in keeping a fellow Primarch caged up, he seems very "brotherly" despite what's happening, allowing Iron Hands to escape multiple times and in fact helping them to prove a point to Fulgrim, he does have a sense of honour and well, Vulkan could be said to be the most loved out of all the Primarchs on average due to his openess to them all.


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## Liliedhe

It is implied that it must have been made around the massacre, because when Perturabo says he made another one, Forrix immediately asks: "On Isstvan V?" So it seems he is very sure that before this moment, the second one did not exist. And Pertie does not contradict it, merely says it is on a Night Lords ship. 

But Vulkan seems unlikely to me, because aside from Ferrus (dead) and Perturabo (busy) he is the only superior Primarch craftsman, and thus would be simply too valuable to throw him into a Labyrinth and forget him. If the traitors have him in their hands, I dont think Horus would relinquish possession of him to Curze to play with him. He'd damn well keep him and try to get him to make toys for the traitors. 

If it was anybody elsethan the VIII Legion, ok, I would also bet on Vulkan, but not those who are destined to spend the next years on the back end of the galaxy playing tag with the Lion.


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## ckcrawford

Mo foes sent me an email saying they just sent it. I bought that thing the second it was available online. I hate you all.


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## Words_of_Truth

Kindle ftw


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## ckcrawford

Words_of_Truth said:


> Kindle ftw


I wonder how many people bought the kindle version.

I know Black Library is trying to rip people off by more or less allowing the book to be available elsewhere.

But I'm not going to buy it for double the price.


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## Liliedhe

I bought the both Ebook and normal book off BL. Downloaded it last Friday. I love Ebooks. ^^

Special books I get in both versions, the Ebook to read and the other to look pretty on the shelf.


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## Lupe

About halfway through the audiobook now, and thoroughly impressed with it.

Perturabo turns out to be a surprisingly likeable fellow. My favorite moment so far is when he says something along the lines of "We can't give the Iron Hands the honorable last stand they deserve, but we can take the price of their deaths from Fulgrim". And this is post Istvaan V, mind you...

Other high points for me:
- Perturabo playing the Siege of the Imperial Palace against Kroeger (especially liked the defender bit)
- Perturabo is actually the only primarch who sees the Emperor's _surrender_ as the end goal of the Heresy, and is actually threatening Fulgrim to pull off his support otherwise
- The Iron Warriors were the first legion to have an informal organization where rank was irrelevant, far before Erebus came up with the lodges. In fact, they actually send him packing when he tries to implement lodges within the Iron Warriors
- "Is there something wrong with the floor, brother Sharrowkyn?"
- Perturabo is the first person to give the Eye of Terror its name, marking it on the map of his flagship and liberally allowing every ship who ever pulls up a map of that area of the Galaxy to access that name


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## MontytheMighty

Lupe said:


> - "Is there something wrong with the floor, brother Sharrowkyn?"


Context please, don't mind spoilers


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## Doelago

MontytheMighty said:


> Context please, don't mind spoilers




Sharrowkyn is a weirdo and hangs around in the ceiling instead of using the floor half the time.


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## Words_of_Truth

MontytheMighty said:


> Context please, don't mind spoilers


He prides himself on being able to "wraith-slip" around the ship avoiding detection from anyone, however when he comes to the apothecarium the Salamander sees him by saying "Is there something wrong with the floor, Brother Sharrowkyn?" and he's shocked to find he's been discovered. 

Later on the apothecarium is being attacked by Emperor's Children including Fabius and the Salamander apothecary is on his back when he suddenly goes "Is there something wrong with the floor, Brother Sharrowkyn?" and the Raven Guard drops down and begins to beat the heck out of the Emperor's Children.

He's a pretty cool character this Sharrowkyn he also....



Puts a bullet in Fulgrim's Head


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## MontytheMighty

Seems like Graham has developed a major hard-on for the Raven Guard, not that I'm complaining. I'd love to see the RG trash some Night Lords (especially after how NL fans are talking smack after the Corax-Curze encounter)


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## piemelke

I would like to see Graham doing a series on the RG, he did a great job at potraying the RG in the chapter's due, I think they are in good hands with him. Far better than the RG as portrayed by Gav, they even got their arse kicked by alpha legion in cc ????


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## MontytheMighty

piemelke said:


> they even got their arse kicked by alpha legion in cc ????


Sure it couldn't have been that one-sided?


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## Doelago

piemelke said:


> Far better than the RG as portrayed by Gav, they even got their arse kicked by alpha legion in cc ????


Well, to be fair, when you have ten guys called Alpharius running around the base someones bound to get hurt. Badly.


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## Words_of_Truth

Dressed as Raven Guard as well, so element of surprise is a big factor.


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## NiceGuyEddy

I suppose I've been impressed by this one, Perterabo is apparently a lot deeper than I previously thought. 

I wasn't a big fan of Fulgrim's self exorcism from _The Primarchs_ although the reason for it is now a little clearer:



The author probably believed a non possessed Fulgrim betraying his brother to attain daemonhood makes more sense than an already possessed Fulgrim trying to attain Daemonhood. More dramatic certainly. 


Also it seems that despite popular (as well as practical) belief you _ might _ actually be able to heal in a stasis field if you have access to the right tech. Makes you wonder (hypothetically, as I have no wish to side track this thread endlessly debating the interpretation of the term "moment of death") what Guilliman's been doing all these years.


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## piemelke

Words_of_Truth said:


> Dressed as Raven Guard as well, so element of surprise is a big factor.


well in one of the earlier scenes when a legionair was infiltrating he could easily stand toe to toe with the RG during cc practices, this is especially strange since the RG are renowned for their cc techniques e.g. chapter's due. The RG did not even notice he was not used to their fighting style. 
so this basically means the alpha legion are not just super spies, super planners super infiltrators but also super cc fighters, kinda like a legion of drago's


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## Words_of_Truth

Hmm well that was only one basic Raven Guard though and the Alpha Legionnaire was a master infiltrator who knows what level he was at. Also I'm not sure whether the Raven Guard were entirely "masters" of combat at this time, while it suited their style they still had basic squads and devastators I believe if I recall _A Raven's Flight_ correctly. 

Don't get me wrong though, they definitely have some awesome fighters as shown in Angel Exterminatus, I just wouldn't base the legion on that one confrontation.


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## piemelke

Words_of_Truth said:


> Hmm well that was only one basic Raven Guard though and the Alpha Legionnaire was a master infiltrator who knows what level he was at. Also I'm not sure whether the Raven Guard were entirely "masters" of combat at this time, while it suited their style they still had basic squads and devastators I believe if I recall _A Raven's Flight_ correctly.
> 
> Don't get me wrong though, they definitely have some awesome fighters as shown in Angel Exterminatus, I just wouldn't base the legion on that one confrontation.


it would seem logical to me that a legion who develop special fighting skills and techniques is able to pick out an infiltrator, and this is so easy to learn I guess it not special at all. 
-It would seem like a legionair infiltrating the salamanders and being able to forge weapons like they do with hammer anvil and fire
-like a legionair infiltrating the word bearers and being able to recite lorgar his crap with the same zeal
- like a legionair infiltrating the mentors and being able to show the same strategic cunning
- like a legionair infiltrating the UM and have the same size stick up their arse

anyhow I am going off topic, I just felt that the RV where portrayed as pansies in DL by Gav, whilst Graham shows them as space ninja's which I like better so I would like Graham to write a book about them


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## Liliedhe

There is this thing called omophagea which allows Space Marines to gain skills and knowledge from people they eat. And it is explicitly stated that this is what the AL did.


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## piemelke

well it would be kinda cuntie if that would be enough to learn all there is to know about a RG, just eat some brain of a dead brother and there you go, ninja skills,(would be cool fluff to develop a zombie chapter trying to eat the brains of as many different chapters as possible becoming the uber chapter).


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## Brother Lucian

piemelke said:


> well it would be kinda cuntie if that would be enough to learn all there is to know about a RG, just eat some brain of a dead brother and there you go, ninja skills,(would be cool fluff to develop a zombie chapter trying to eat the brains of as many different chapters as possible becoming the uber chapter).


Couldve been someone who have fallen to nurgle and is trying to stave off the rot in them by consuming their once brethren.


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## ckcrawford

Finally got my book, but probably not going to be able to read it until this weekend.


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## piemelke

ckcrawford said:


> Finally got my book, but probably not going to be able to read it until this weekend.


?


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## ckcrawford

Started reading a bit into it. A few corrections. Someone said there is no rank structure in the Iron Warriors. That is not true. In the Trident, rank does not matter. 

I find it interesting that in the 40k lore (if you've been following Iron Warrior fluff fanactically like me) you will see that everyone in the Trident is dead or elevated. I think this is very interesting as it shows that Perturabo is very closed from the rest of his legion.


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## ckcrawford

piemelke said:


> ?


School bra.


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## piemelke

ckcrawford said:


> School bra.


ich dacht al des ze schele zeiver aan het verkoupe woors


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## Lupe

ckcrawford said:


> Started reading a bit into it. A few corrections. Someone said there is no rank structure in the Iron Warriors. That is not true. In the Trident, rank does not matter.


Apologies, I was a bit ambiguous when I said that. I meant to say they _also_ had an informal organization, similar to, but pre-dating the warrior lodges, where all legionnaires could discuss their concerns, and where all ranks were irrelevant.


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## Matcap

I'm kind of ambiguous on the book. (To get this thread back on topic ;-))

On the one hand I loved the IW/EC interplay and the details on Perturabo/Links to the WH40K IW novels.

On the other hand, I really disliked the fact that so many parts of the story where left half finished. I mean cliffhangers OK but almost every single thing the IH/RG/Salamanders did was left hanging. 

Also the deaf IH guy standing up to the kakophoni is cool and all... If the book didn't show the kakophoni blasting apart wraithbone structures with their weapons a few chapters before. 

It seemed to me the first half of the book was very well written, up until they land on the crone world and then it seems the author realised he wanted to cram too much stuff in, next to the Fulgrim/Perturabo plot, in too few pages, ending up with a lot of half finished plotlines and Deus ex Machina just to get the book done.


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## Angel of Blood

Just one on Ignatius Numen, he wasn't hit with one of the sonic weapons, but my Vairoseans scream, which as shown earlier in the novel only incapacitates people due to an audio overload. The weapons fire sound turned into a physical force, but the scream doesn't appear to.


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## MontytheMighty

piemelke said:


> -It would seem like a legionair infiltrating the salamanders and being able to forge weapons like they do with hammer anvil and fire
> -like a legionair infiltrating the word bearers and being able to recite lorgar his crap with the same zeal
> - like a legionair infiltrating the mentors and being able to show the same strategic cunning
> - like a legionair infiltrating the UM and have the same size stick up their arse


Another legion needs to slap the Alpha Legion silly in a future book. All this "AL is so clever, every other legion is retarded in comparison" wank is starting to grate on my nerves


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## Words_of_Truth

I think that could happen when they try to intercept the space wolves and white scars.


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## piemelke

MontytheMighty said:


> Another legion needs to slap the Alpha Legion silly in a future book. All this "AL is so clever, every other legion is retarded in comparison" wank is starting to grate on my nerves


agreed


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## ckcrawford

MontytheMighty said:


> Another legion needs to slap the Alpha Legion silly in a future book. All this "AL is so clever, every other legion is retarded in comparison" wank is starting to grate on my nerves


I will second that.


----------



## ckcrawford

Does anyone understand the purpose of killing Perturabo? Was it supposed to make Fulgrim a stronger Daemon Prince or something?


----------



## Words_of_Truth

He was meant to sacrifice something of importance for it to succeed, however it succeeded any way so him using Perturabo was pointless in the end.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Whilst he ascended to a daemon prince in the end anyway, from what I understood, if he had consumed Perturabos strength in the process then he would have become even more powerful.


----------



## ckcrawford

Angel of Blood said:


> Whilst he ascended to a daemon prince in the end anyway, from what I understood, if he had consumed Perturabos strength in the process then he would have become even more powerful.


Those were my thoughts exactly.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Not a big fan of Curze, Russ, or the Alpha twins...but I've always held Fulgrim to be the biggest douchebag among the primarchs

I bet he sparkles


----------



## Lord Mephiston

Is it just me, or does Fulgrim in Angel Exterminatus seem alot like Joker from the Batman comics & animation ( not the movie ) .

This guy is totally batshit insane in the book.


----------



## Marley

Lord Mephiston said:


> Is it just me, or does Fulgrim in Angel Exterminatus seem alot like Joker from the Batman comics & animation ( not the movie ) .
> 
> This guy is totally batshit insane in the book.



Agree with the above. I thought the best thing about this book was the absolutely "out there" portrayal of Fulgrim and The Emperors Children - really harks back to the old school feel of scary, wierd and crazy Warhammer Chaos.


----------



## Lord of Ruin

I for one thought fulgrim was a complete selfish [email protected]#%&*d however, he was a character that i just loved to hate.


----------



## March of Time

From chapter 24 -

“A warrior with a bland, forgettable face and whose black hair was worn in plaited braids across the centre of his scalp fought at the warsmith’s side like his protector. Falk gave him an appraising glance before dismissing him as irrelevant”

An one know who this Iron Warrior is ?


----------



## Angel of Blood

That would be Cadaras Grendel. Who also accompanied Vull Bronn aboard the _Pride of the Emperor_.


----------



## DjdaForce

Really great Book! Best quote was from Kroeger when he killed the dark Mechanicum Adepts: "Gothic! Do you speak it?"


----------



## Kelsik

I have reread ( and listened to the mp3 ) looking a reference if Angel Exterminatus is before or after the siege of Lesser Dalentime. As you recall it was the short story in Age of Darkness. Grendel is not called by a warsmith title in Angel and there is no mention of his roll in the siege of Dantioks ( I know Im butchering names, im at work so just go with it) inverted fortress and the horrible losses the traitor 4th suffers.
Dantiok does get discussed sort of, well at least the war plate that was custom built for Dantiok that is reissued to another warsmith after Dantioks failure and dissabling. 
Grendel playes more of a role of defending the 4ths honor while aboard the Emperor's children ship. I didnt see that comming.

I think some one else mentioned the use of a device that is healing a criticaly wounded iron hands captain while in stasis. I would like to see more references to this that may help heal Guilliman. After all nearly all the traitor primarchs lived, the loyalists deserve at least one.


----------



## mal310

There are spoliers bellow.

The bits I enjoyed included everything with Fabius, some of it was bordering on becoming disturbing and I think Graham could have pushed this even further than he did to really capture the horror. Never the less I did think it was done reasonably well. 

The group of Isstvan survivors. I enjoyed their story arc and I thought the Thamatica character had potential. I'm sure we shall see this lot again. Although I do hope that there is some explanation of what happened to the majority of the Iron Hands fleet that had not arrived when it all kicked off at Isstvan. 

Some characters getting killed off. About bloody time. 

Rylonor was mentioned so hopefully they haven't completely forgotten about him. 

There were bits that I thought could have been improved on or didn't like. 

I didn't feel that the Iron Warriors decision to join Horus was explained well enough. For example no explanation was given as to why he attacked Olympia. I only have a vague idea from looking it up on Lexicanum etc. I shouldn't have to supplement a novel with other sources to find out what is going on. A flashback to a conversation with Horus regarding his betrayal would have been nice. Instead we got a flashback of Ferrus WTF!

Too much bolter porn in parts. I know a lot of Black Library readers love this but I find these parts the most boring and become tempted to skim read it. 

I've not read Graham's 40k Iron Warriors series, however I'm aware that a lot of the characters from this are also in that. I think ADB handles this kind of thing best. He uses subtle nods towards characters from other series as opposed to always using the same ones (10th company Apothecary tending to Konrad for example). The problem with the approach that Graham took for me is that it removes a lot of the tension. You know who's going to survive because they have to. Also although the HH series in set in the Warhammer 30K/40K setting, it is its own entity. I personally don't feel that I should have to read books out with the series to fully grasp all the nuances of the work.


----------



## sadLor

mal310 said:


> O
> 
> There were bits that I thought could have been improved on or didn't like.
> 
> I didn't feel that the Iron Warriors decision to join Horus was explained well enough. For example no explanation was given as to why he attacked Olympia. I only have a vague idea from looking it up on Lexicanum etc. I shouldn't have to supplement a novel with other sources to find out what is going on. A flashback to a conversation with Horus regarding his betrayal would have been nice. Instead we got a flashback of Ferrus WTF!


I totally agree with this point. In previous novels, we have a very clear understanding of why Horus, Lorgar, Fulgrim, Magnus and Alpharius/Omegon turned. We know what motivated them and we know what tempted them into turning traitor. ADB's Night Lord series gave a clearer picture of Curze's motivations and that wasn't even set in 30k.

Perturabo's decision and the IW's reaction to the decision were quite vague. Olympia had some sort of uprising, Perturabo laid waste to his home planet in a tantrum(?), he figured the Emperor would not forgive him and he joined Horus because....? There were also parts about his legion being overlooked by the other primarchs/legions but would that have played a part in him turning his back on the Emperor? Maybe someone with more fluff knowledge could make it a bit clearer for us.

I mean...I'm not sure...I also had to look at the wh40k wiki to understand his background story more. It cleared some things up for me but still...I would have loved if they actually had a few chapters(a long flashback or something) on the IW razing Olympia and his conversations with Horus and his decision to join the traitors.

I'm hoping the future novels on Mortarion and Angron are clearer on their mindset and motivations for turning on their father. These are the most important decisions in the 40k storyline... what made these sons turn on their father and bring the galaxy to war?


----------



## nate187

I thought this book was great and good to see Graham get back on the horse after that abortion the outcast dead.

Perturabo... Wow I was not expecting him to fleshed out like that. Bloody outstanding. Fulgrim is a total ****** but like some before me mentioned you love to hate. 

I really liked this book/audio (couldnt wait for it to come out soft cover) 
9/10

Cheers


----------



## jasonpittman

Just finished the book 30 minutes ago, absolutely loved it. I also thought it was a nice touch to have the characters from Grahams 40k Iron Warriors. It was interesting to read what they were like in 30k after reading about them in 40k.

I think this book has put the Heresy back on track I was starting to get a bit bored with it and after reading Fear To Tread was ready to give up on it completely but after reading this and having The Betrayer to start reading tonight, not to mention the future titles coming out. The future is looking bright again for the Heresy.


----------



## kujwa

i loved the book, first real introduction to Iron Warriors for me. I've started the Iron Warrior's Omnibus and I'm a bit confused, maybe someone can clear it up for me. Kroger and Forrix are Perturabo's his #3 and #1 guys in Angel's right? then why in the omnibus do they feel like they were demoted or passed over by Warsmith? (I'm only half way through Storm of Iron so please no spoilers) if it's explained in Storm just tell me to ask back once I finished with that story. 

I took the reason Perturabo rebelled was due to being tired of being taken for granted by his brothers and father, they mention how the one planet had statues/paintings of Ultramarines and Imperial Fists everywhere but only one painting with Iron Warriors. 

How did Lucius leave from the Iron Fist cruiser? His first fight with the Raven Guard was interrupted when Perturabo teleported, next time you read of Lucius he's on the Iron Warriors ship.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I think it said Fulgrim carried him, I may be wrong though and it might of just been the rest of the Emperor's Children.


----------



## Phoebus

kujwa said:


> i loved the book, first real introduction to Iron Warriors for me. I've started the Iron Warrior's Omnibus and I'm a bit confused, maybe someone can clear it up for me. Kroger and Forrix are Perturabo's his #3 and #1 guys in Angel's right? then why in the omnibus do they feel like they were demoted or passed over by Warsmith? (I'm only half way through Storm of Iron so please no spoilers) if it's explained in Storm just tell me to ask back once I finished with that story.


My personal theory was that after the Iron Cage incident, when the Iron Warriors finally retreated to the Eye, their Legion broke up into various warbands. At that time, the three of them (Warsmith, Forix, Kroger) formed their own warband. Hence why they are together during "Storm of Iron", thousands of years later.

Assuming this did happen, I don't think it's a matter of demotion or being passed over. Kroger was by no means a prodigy. With the destruction of his Battalion, Forrix might have already decided to be more of an advisor/champion than a commander. As such, the Warsmith may have naturally fallen into the position of command between the three.



> I took the reason Perturabo rebelled was due to being tired of being taken for granted by his brothers and father, they mention how the one planet had statues/paintings of Ultramarines and Imperial Fists everywhere but only one painting with Iron Warriors.


That's one reason, yes, but there are other factors as well. A central one is that Perturabo was first and foremost a builder of things, and thus despised siege warfare - which left him destroying things over and over. In the pursuit of the style of war he hated the most, he lost proportionately more of his sons than the other primarchs did... and he lost them in ways where they couldn't even claim glory. It all added up, basically.


----------



## Angel of Blood

I would say the disillusionment and weariness Forrix felt also likely contributed heavily to him letting the Warsmith take the lead.


----------



## Lupe

Did everybody just miss the big skull whispering to Falk throughout the book? I'd say whatever power is offering him patronage clearly arranged things so that he would rise above his fellow triarchs...


----------



## Angel of Blood

Not at all, we're not discussing how Falk got his power, more of why Forrix and Kroeger so readily stepped aside to let him take over. Forrix was first captain and Kroeger was still a triarch at the end of the day. They could easily just left Falk to form their own warbands but decided to become part of his instead.


----------



## Lupe

Yeah, the thing is that apparently Falk's mysterious patron seems to know that Kroeger will end up as Falk's underling.

At some point near the end, Falk becomes bossy, and Kroeger says he doesn't take orders from him, to which Falk replies "Not yet", without knowing where those words came from. That strongly suggests that Forrix and Kroeger's fates are already planned for.

But heck, for all we know, a lot of stuff can happen until Storm of Iron. Perturabo could officially designate Falk as his regent / successor upon ascension. The legion could actually start splintering into warbands after Forrix and Kroeger accept their roles as Falk's lieutenants. The legion's splitting could actually be more functional than hierarchical, so all individual warsmiths are free to do as they wish, and compete against each other, so long as they answer the call when Falk demands... Who knows...


----------



## deepsix81

I found this to be a largely well-done story. I felt like the Iron Warriors were exceptionally represented, and Perturabo in partcular was fleshed out in a comprehensive way. There were more than a few highlights, but as was mentioned in some of the earlier posts, it felt like too many things got introduced and either ignored or only tangentially explored. This was largely the major case for my dislike of Outcast Dead as well, so maybe my taste for McNeill's writing is more to blame than anything else. 

The description of the Emperor's Children felt insincere and over the top. This may not be a negative, as they have fully given themselves to Slaanesh and crave sensation above all else. But they seemed to be without nuance, almost mindless in their pursuit of whatever pleasure suits them best. Fulgrim, in particular was the most notable example of this. Whenever I read Fulgrim, I saw Sigvald. Rather than the calculating, intelligent primarch that he is, I read him as child-like, petulant, and one-dimensional. There were a few 'moments of clarity,' but nearly the entire story left me feeling hollow with regards to the Phoenician. 

Do we have a consensus on how the Raven Guard are supposed to move, fight and behave? It seems that McNeill sees the Ravens as space ninjas (much in line with his 40K Ravens in the Ultramarine series). These ninjas don't seem to exist in any other work that I've seen. Don't get me wrong, I think it's fun and interesting and unique, but it doesn't seem to fit, at least not with the picture that's been painted in basically every other story. I believe we had Sharrowkyn do a back flip in power armour at some point.

One of the things that I'd like to see more of: 

-

The primarchs ascending the Astartes Tower. There was a line about 'not all of them made the journey.' Are they just trolling us with the lost legions now?


----------



## piemelke

I like the space ninja depiction 'a lot', much more than the depiction given by gav in deliverance lost, these where just space marines clad in black who got suckered by the alpha legion after getting their arses served on a plate @ istvan, the ninja image gives them a very cool identity in my opinion in line with the shadow killers they are,
Actually in the short story books there is one raven guard in a deathwatch team who also seems to be in line with the ninja stuff, he is also rather bad-ass


----------



## Stephen74

Just finished listening to this on audio and it is, for me, the best book in the heresy series so far. 

I'm not generally a fan of chaos stuff but the Emperors Children have been done superbly well. They actually have character and are not just marines with spikey bits pretending to be all evil. Fabius and Lucius were exceptional. 

The band of loyal marines were great as well and I hope we hear from them again as there are a few loose ends to tie up. I like the concept of this multi-legion crew going around avenging their fallen primarchs. 

Even though we know characters are not going to die, well, actually that isnt strictly speaking true, lucius died and I wasnt expecting that, though bringing him back wasnt realy a surprise, but the story had enough suspense in it despite having a good idea of what happens to individuals. 

McNeill is excellent at character interaction and that majority of the book is written like this. In this he is the best of the heresy writers. I just hope he keeps writing like this and stops with the god awful descriptive writing he does. 


There is quite a lot of further history that could be written off of this book. I don't know if it's already been done, but the Iron Warriors vs the Imperial Fists is something I now want to read about. 

The only thing I didnt like or understand about the book was the little segment about fulgrim being found as a baby. What was the light all about and how could he mind control people?


----------



## Discharger039

Great read - this one only took me about 10 hours. 

What I really want to know is: Who climbed the Astartes Tower for Alpha Legion? Did Alpharius and Omegon climb at the same time? Did they each make a separate climb? Does the Emperor know that they are twins? How could Omegon be considered a primarch if he did not complete the task (unless they lied to their own legion)?


----------



## Stephen74

Discharger039 said:


> Great read - this one only took me about 10 hours.
> 
> What I really want to know is: Who climbed the Astartes Tower for Alpha Legion? Did Alpharius and Omegon climb at the same time? Did they each make a separate climb? Does the Emperor know that they are twins? How could Omegon be considered a primarch if he did not complete the task (unless they lied to their own legion)?


 
Hmm either thats not covered in the audio book or its part of McNiells fluff, which I now automatically tune out, because I have no idea what you are talking about.


----------



## maelstrom48

I'd be curious to read more about Alpharius and Omegon myself. Alpha Legion fluff is always so hopelessly mired in intrigue/secrecy, it'd be nice to see some light cast on them for once.

I didn't like Angels Exterminatus while reading it, but looking back... I think I actually did. If that makes any sense. It's easy to recognize a good read when you find yourself grinding your teeth whenever a certain character makes an appearance. For me, those characters were Fulgrim, Fabius and Lucius. I absolutely despised them, and I almost cheered when each of them got their comeuppance (however small it was).

There were a couple of loose ends that I would have liked to see tied up, as people have mentioned before. The Iron Hands Captain--I'd like to see what happened to him. Far as I could tell, McNeill only included him so he could work in a dramatic moment toward the end, what with the "This world is alive" quote. Also, Cassander of the Imperial Fists. I get that he had his moment of revenge in Fabius's lab, but I feel like the poor guy deserved a little more closure than that after all he went through.

The Dark Eldar trickery... really? You bring two Legions to a crone world with a nefarious goal in mind, yet you have no feasible plan to get off-world with your objective(s)? Come on. That was contrived as hell. I'm not convinced the Eldar guides were even necessary to the plot. The barely did anything at all.

Also, personal preference here, but way too many adjectives. The description seemed a little overabundant at times. The scene that springs to mind is when Fulgrim first makes his appearance along with his Slaaneshi cavalcade. I'm pretty sure McNeill spent 3 pages discussing the various debaucheries, and _nothing happened_ in that time. Still, I was kind of impressed with the way he strung certain phrases together. There was an almost poetic element to his prose. It was mostly annoying, but sometimes I raised my brows in admiration.

Overall, I think it was a very good book, and worth the read. Colorful, loveable/hate-able characters; decent if somewhat-contrived plot; admirable/irksome writing style; a lot of light shed on the 30k background. Probably in my top 5.


----------



## mwnciboo

It was a good book, and added some interesting elements. 

There is alot on here about RG, well you cannot base the entire Legion on One exceptional Character Nykona Sharrowkyn. No other RG characters are in this book so broadbrush statements on the RG don't follow, I would go with "Delieverance Lost" by the same author.

Remember that the Maze Alluded to by Perturabo sounds eerily similiar to the Secret Maze in the mountain on Terra where the Emperor keeps the Gene Samples of the Primarch as featured in "Deliverence Lost" ? Alternatively I have also read alot of 40k books, and I'm pretty convinced (though my memory maybe fading) there is a reference to a Primarch being held in Megrengard (Peturabo's Daemon World), I even believe it might be Leman Russ. This could possibly be the reference to the Singular Exceptional Prisoner. 

There is also an Unresolved issue with the RG from Graham McNeill short story where the a World Eater Vessel is taken over by two "Alpharius bods" and then allows a small flotilla to evacuate Corax and his survivors off Istvaan V. 

It could always be Ollanius Pius or maybe Jon Grammaticus? 

This series keeps getting better and better, and as a Pre-Heresy Iron Hand player my number of "Iron Tenth" Characters went up exponentially. I will be painting a Salamander Apocathery and a Raven Guard Jump pack marine with pair of Gladii to hide within my force.


----------



## Apfeljunge

The prisoner is probably 

Vulkan
.

The World Eater vessel situation from "The Face of Treachery" is resolved in Deliverance Lost. No perpetuals there.
Also both stories are by Gav Thorpe and not by McNeill.


----------



## Angel of Blood

mwnciboo said:


> There is also an Unresolved issue with the RG from Graham McNeill short story where the a World Eater Vessel is taken over by two "Alpharius bods" and then allows a small flotilla to evacuate Corax and his survivors off Istvaan V.


How do you mean? They stopped the World Eaters vessel from destroying the Raven Guard ships to safeguard their operatives. Granted the WE ship might have destroyed the RG ship and doomed the entire legion, but then it might have failed, worse odds have been beaten on many occasions, the AL doesn't like taking chances like that, they want to be the ones in control of the game, though they don't want you to know they are, or that your in a game for that matter.



Apfeljunge said:


> The prisoner is probably
> 
> Vulkan
> .


Agreed, along with Angron in _Betrayer_ saying that Vulcan probably wishes he was dead.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Wasn't the prisoner held in Curze's version of Peturabo's prison?


----------



## Angel of Blood

Yeah, that not the prison we're on about?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Okay, I know this has taken me a while, but I have finally finished _Angel Exterminatus_. Having started it months ago, I finally finished the last 150 or so pages of the Ebook last night.

My verdict: It was utter shite. One of the worst Heresy novels in my opinion. I liked next-to-nothing about it. 

Firstly, it wound me up so much that the IV Legion character development (other than Perturabo) was based almost entirely on Mcneill's 40k characters, and thus half of the book didn't even feel like the _Horus Heresy_, but nothing more than a prelude to _Storm of Iron_ and the others. I literally cannot believe that even the epilogue (usually reserved for fantastic cliff-hangers or intriguing plot developments in the Heresy series) was used to flesh-out his 40k characters (Honsou in this instance). Mcneill has now become the worst offender for making the Imperium/galaxy feel tiny and dominated by a handful of characters (as per AD-B's criticism). 

I also didn't enjoy Perturabo's depiction. I appreciate this may be more a personal taste, but Perturabo is meant to be hate-filled and twisted (especially after Olympia, Isstvan and Phall). Worn out and bitter from centuries of trudging through the mud of the worst battlefields of the Great Crusade and claiming no glory or credit, then utterly massacring his own homeworld and then getting embarrassed by the Imperial Fists again when the opportunity finally comes around to directly fight them. Instead, he is actually a very likeable character, especially because he stands in contrast to that dick Fulgrim. I didn't really pick up on any of the bitterness, let alone any inner conflict about why he allowed Olympia to burn, and thus why he willingly embraced the rebellion. In fact there was very little mention of Olympia or his reasons for choosing Horus at all considering it had only happened perhaps a year or two earlier. Perturabo was meant to be the dick, one of the only Primarchs that (with a sane mind) willingly chose to embrace the Horus Heresy. His portrayal in _Crimson Fist_ had him spot on. Mcneill's depiction in _Angel Exterminatus_ is a portrayal of what Perturabo should have been like at the beginning of the Great Crusade, not after its conclusion when he was (meant to be) consumed by bitterness and hatred.

After a few chapters I started skipping over the loyalist parts, the Iron Hands were so pathetically dull and I really couldn't give a shit about what they were up to. Sharrowkyn was obviously the most interesting loyalist character but again, I wasn't enthralled. The Emperor's Children similarly felt dull, despite them being full-on Slaanesh worshippers by this point and this being the same author who wrote the enjoyable _Fulgrim_. Every scene with Fabius in was annoyingly repetitive and predictable. Lucius didn't carry the same presence he did in _Fulgrim_. And _Fulgrim_ himself was just plain annoying.

Some other minor points: Perturabo's robot bodyguard made me cringe, having to imagine a ring of shield-bearing robots forming a circle around the Primarch everywhere he went was absolutely cringe worthy. There was no mention of the Diamat siege guns obtained from the Lion which would have provided an interesting point. 

Mcneill's next book is meant to to be centred on the Warmaster. I really hope he produces it in the calibre of _A Thousand Sons_ and not the drivel that _Angel Exterminatus_ or _The Outcast Dead_ turned out to be. Because in my mind, there is a lot resting on this next one.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Have to say I agree with the majority of the points you've made, I found it an ok read it could of been a lot better though and I think I benefited by not having read his Iron Warrior series.


----------



## mal310

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Okay, I know this has taken me a while, but I have finally finished _Angel Exterminatus_. Having started it months ago, I finally finished the last 150 or so pages of the Ebook last night.
> 
> My verdict: It was utter shite. One of the worst Heresy novels in my opinion. I liked next-to-nothing about it.
> 
> Firstly, it wound me up so much that the IV Legion character development (other than Perturabo) was based almost entirely on Mcneill's 40k characters, and thus half of the book didn't even feel like the _Horus Heresy_, but nothing more than a prelude to _Storm of Iron_ and the others. I literally cannot believe that even the epilogue (usually reserved for fantastic cliff-hangers or intriguing plot developments in the Heresy series) was used to flesh-out his 40k characters (Honsou in this instance). Mcneill has now become the worst offender for making the Imperium/galaxy feel tiny and dominated by a handful of characters (as per AD-B's criticism).
> 
> I also didn't enjoy Perturabo's depiction. I appreciate this may be more a personal taste, but Perturabo is meant to be hate-filled and twisted (especially after Olympia, Isstvan and Phall). Worn out and bitter from centuries of trudging through the mud of the worst battlefields of the Great Crusade and claiming no glory or credit, then utterly massacring his own homeworld and then getting embarrassed by the Imperial Fists again when the opportunity finally comes around to directly fight them. Instead, he is actually a very likeable character, especially because he stands in contrast to that dick Fulgrim. I didn't really pick up on any of the bitterness, let alone any inner conflict about why he allowed Olympia to burn, and thus why he willingly embraced the rebellion. In fact there was very little mention of Olympia or his reasons for choosing Horus at all considering it had only happened perhaps a year or two earlier. Perturabo was meant to be the dick, one of the only Primarchs that (with a sane mind) willingly chose to embrace the Horus Heresy. His portrayal in _Crimson Fist_ had him spot on. Mcneill's depiction in _Angel Exterminatus_ is a portrayal of what Perturabo should have been like at the beginning of the Great Crusade, not after its conclusion when he was (meant to be) consumed by bitterness and hatred.
> 
> After a few chapters I started skipping over the loyalist parts, the Iron Hands were so pathetically dull and I really couldn't give a shit about what they were up to. Sharrowkyn was obviously the most interesting loyalist character but again, I wasn't enthralled. The Emperor's Children similarly felt dull, despite them being full-on Slaanesh worshippers by this point and this being the same author who wrote the enjoyable _Fulgrim_. Every scene with Fabius in was annoyingly repetitive and predictable. Lucius didn't carry the same presence he did in _Fulgrim_. And _Fulgrim_ himself was just plain annoying.
> 
> Some other minor points: Perturabo's robot bodyguard made me cringe, having to imagine a ring of shield-bearing robots forming a circle around the Primarch everywhere he went was absolutely cringe worthy. There was no mention of the Diamat siege guns obtained from the Lion which would have provided an interesting point.
> 
> Mcneill's next book is meant to to be centred on the Warmaster. I really hope he produces it in the calibre of _A Thousand Sons_ and not the drivel that _Angel Exterminatus_ or _The Outcast Dead_ turned out to be. Because in my mind, there is a lot resting on this next one.


Agree with a lot of this. McNeill has totally lost the plot as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Okay, I know this has taken me a while, but I have finally finished _Angel Exterminatus_. Having started it months ago, I finally finished the last 150 or so pages of the Ebook last night.


Good for you LOL

I started it in March or was it February, couldn't get past the halfway mark 



> My verdict: It was utter shite.


Can't really argue with that 



> Firstly, it wound me up so much that the IV Legion character development (other than Perturabo) was based almost entirely on Mcneill's 40k characters


This would be forgivable if the characters were well-written. Let's just say I'm starting to think _A Thousand Sons_ is a fluke 



> Perturabo was meant to be the dick, one of the only Primarchs that (with a sane mind) willingly chose to embrace the Horus Heresy. His portrayal in _Crimson Fist_ had him spot on. Mcneill's depiction in _Angel Exterminatus_ is a portrayal of what Perturabo should have been like at the beginning of the Great Crusade, not after its conclusion when he was (meant to be) consumed by bitterness and hatred.


Yes, Perturabo's reasons for joining the rebellion don't seem to be very compelling or plausible. 



> After a few chapters I started skipping over the loyalist parts, the Iron Hands were so pathetically dull and I really couldn't give a shit about what they were up to.


The crazy Iron Father's characterisation is saturday morning cartoon level.



> Sharrowkyn was obviously the most interesting loyalist character but again, I wasn't enthralled.


His power seems a bit OP. He's almost like Nightcrawler of the X-Men. 



> Mcneill's next book is meant to to be centred on the Warmaster. I really hope he produces it in the calibre of _A Thousand Sons_ and not the drivel that _Angel Exterminatus_ or _The Outcast Dead_ turned out to be.


I'v given up on McNeill. ATS is an island in McNeill's sea of bad writing. I wish it weren't so...but the only good Horus Heresy authours are Abnett, ADB, and Wraight. McNeill (except for ATS), Swallow, Thorpe, and Kyme usually churn out some pretty low-quality dross.


----------



## ckcrawford

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Okay, I know this has taken me a while, but I have finally finished _Angel Exterminatus_. Having started it months ago, I finally finished the last 150 or so pages of the Ebook last night.
> 
> My verdict: It was utter shite. One of the worst Heresy novels in my opinion. I liked next-to-nothing about it.
> 
> Firstly, it wound me up so much that the IV Legion character development (other than Perturabo) was based almost entirely on Mcneill's 40k characters, and thus half of the book didn't even feel like the _Horus Heresy_, but nothing more than a prelude to _Storm of Iron_ and the others. I literally cannot believe that even the epilogue (usually reserved for fantastic cliff-hangers or intriguing plot developments in the Heresy series) was used to flesh-out his 40k characters (Honsou in this instance). Mcneill has now become the worst offender for making the Imperium/galaxy feel tiny and dominated by a handful of characters (as per AD-B's criticism).
> 
> I also didn't enjoy Perturabo's depiction. I appreciate this may be more a personal taste, but Perturabo is meant to be hate-filled and twisted (especially after Olympia, Isstvan and Phall). Worn out and bitter from centuries of trudging through the mud of the worst battlefields of the Great Crusade and claiming no glory or credit, then utterly massacring his own homeworld and then getting embarrassed by the Imperial Fists again when the opportunity finally comes around to directly fight them. Instead, he is actually a very likeable character, especially because he stands in contrast to that dick Fulgrim. I didn't really pick up on any of the bitterness, let alone any inner conflict about why he allowed Olympia to burn, and thus why he willingly embraced the rebellion. In fact there was very little mention of Olympia or his reasons for choosing Horus at all considering it had only happened perhaps a year or two earlier. Perturabo was meant to be the dick, one of the only Primarchs that (with a sane mind) willingly chose to embrace the Horus Heresy. His portrayal in _Crimson Fist_ had him spot on. Mcneill's depiction in _Angel Exterminatus_ is a portrayal of what Perturabo should have been like at the beginning of the Great Crusade, not after its conclusion when he was (meant to be) consumed by bitterness and hatred.
> 
> After a few chapters I started skipping over the loyalist parts, the Iron Hands were so pathetically dull and I really couldn't give a shit about what they were up to. Sharrowkyn was obviously the most interesting loyalist character but again, I wasn't enthralled. The Emperor's Children similarly felt dull, despite them being full-on Slaanesh worshippers by this point and this being the same author who wrote the enjoyable _Fulgrim_. Every scene with Fabius in was annoyingly repetitive and predictable. Lucius didn't carry the same presence he did in _Fulgrim_. And _Fulgrim_ himself was just plain annoying.
> 
> Some other minor points: Perturabo's robot bodyguard made me cringe, having to imagine a ring of shield-bearing robots forming a circle around the Primarch everywhere he went was absolutely cringe worthy. There was no mention of the Diamat siege guns obtained from the Lion which would have provided an interesting point.
> 
> Mcneill's next book is meant to to be centred on the Warmaster. I really hope he produces it in the calibre of _A Thousand Sons_ and not the drivel that _Angel Exterminatus_ or _The Outcast Dead_ turned out to be. Because in my mind, there is a lot resting on this next one.


So I'm not crazy... or at least I'm not the only one. The novel has really shell shocked me from the Heresy as a whole. I honestly can't believe some of the stuff the authors have come up with. I feel McNeil glues his books in his private library together and is scheming to have them all connect in some shape or form. Hope to see better work in the future.


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## Words_of_Truth

Did you like the deaf Iron Warrior who owned Marius Vairosean?


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## Karthak

Hm, at least on this forum I appear to be in the minority. I like both Swallow's and McNeill's writing.


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## Lord of the Night

Karthak said:


> Hm, at least on this forum I appear to be in the minority. I like both Swallow's and McNeill's writing.


As do I. Do I like Swallow, Kyme and McNeill as much as ADB, Abnett or Wraight? No, but they are still enjoyable.


LotN


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## DjdaForce

Angel Exterminatus was...strange. I read Storm of Iron and the Ultramarines stuff nearly 2 years before AE, so I didn't remeber all the characters and the fact that every damn IW featured there. But nevertheless, the Novel was so full of Plotholes and unexplainable stuff;
-A deaf Spacemarine? No, wait a deaf Iron Hand? A warrior of the one legion which replaces half their body with augmentics doesen't get himself some metal ears? That guy was so obviously a plot device, to be used against the noise marines, I saw that coming the moment the guy was introduced.
-A super-Ninja-Awesome Ravenguard? The novel just lacked the explaination which came later in Soulforge.
-Perturabo burned Olympia because.....? And he burned Olypmia when exactly....? Going to the emperor and saying, "Hey dad listen, I don't want my legion to fight the shitty battles all the time, let Dorn do that!" was not possibly why?
-In the final battle, with two full legions in orbit of the eldar planet, planetfall was made with like 10k Marines?!Why? Where were all the Titans and the other auxilliaries, who fought against the Imperial Fists? No explanation here, it had to be so because otherwise the plot wouldn't work.
-The single Iron Hands ship hid itself before the full fleet of the IW and EC, managed to extract the remains of the loyalist force with stormbirds and retreated right through the middle of the enemy forces....yeah right...

But now comes the strange thing: 
I
liked
the 
book.

Despite all those plotholes. Despite I knew that all those IW would survive. Despite good guy Perturabo who joined Horus because he was too lazy to talk to big E. The Novel had just so much stuff which I think is awesome:
-The mysteriously healing IH captain in his stasis field. I like mysteries.
-The Iron Hands part was just cool. I like how the beginning of the transformation of the "less-augmented" IH to the 40K IH was described.
-The EC were just perfect. The fall to chaos of Fulgrim and his sons was very well done.
-The simulated battle of Terra.
-The hints to all the other books: The Imperial Fist from The Crimson Fist, the renegade Warsmith was mentioned, Reflection Crack'd, Deliverance Lost etc etc...
-Finally, Vulkan lives!

Normally, when a book has some serious plot holes (Deliverance Lost, Outcast Dead) it is ruined for me. But McNeill managed to write a Novel which has its flaws (in fact, many of them...) but i still enjoyed it!


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## Lord of the Night

DjdaForce said:


> -A deaf Spacemarine? No, wait a deaf Iron Hand? A warrior of the one legion which replaces half their body with augmentics doesen't get himself some metal ears? That guy was so obviously a plot device, to be used against the noise marines, I saw that coming the moment the guy was introduced.


On a ship that barely had enough medical supplies for wounded marines, they couldn't supply him with bionics for hearing which would have to be good otherwise it'd just be pointless. That's your answer, they simply didn't have the spare parts to give him anything.



DjdaForce said:


> -A super-Ninja-Awesome Ravenguard? The novel just lacked the explaination which came later in Soulforge.


And? Going into the details with the Raven Guard in a Iron Warriors/Emperor's Children novel would have been too off-track. Besides it's explained that Sharrowkyn has a special ability, the exact details of it are confirmed in that novella yes, but enough is explained in the book that the reader understands.



DjdaForce said:


> -Perturabo burned Olympia because.....? And he burned Olypmia when exactly....? Going to the emperor and saying, "Hey dad listen, I don't want my legion to fight the shitty battles all the time, let Dorn do that!" was not possibly why?


Because nobody got that option. Why didn't Horus just ask "Why have you left the Crusade?" Why didn't Sanguinius just ask "Can you help me with my Legion's flaw?" Why didn't Angron just ask "Why did you abduct me like that?" None of the Primarchs talked about their issues with the Emperor, which of course is one of the reasons the Heresy came about.


LotN


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## Khorne's Fist

I must be in a very small minority that actually enjoyed this book a lot. I thought Perturabo's guilt ridden reasons for rebelling were quite plausible and helped flesh out his character. The fact that he was an artist at heart also made reinforced the idea that I've had for a while that the primarchs all had secondary roles built into their nature by the Emperor besides being warlords.

The Emperor's Children were portrayed brilliantly, their rapid and dramatic fall visualised very well, and I enjoyed the loyalists, Sharrowkyn in particular, but the crazy Iron Father pushed him close.

I understand and can see all the faults and complaints that people have about the book, but it still managed to be a great read that I got through in a couple of days.


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## Malus Darkblade

Lord of the Night said:


> On a ship that barely had enough medical supplies for wounded marines, they couldn't supply him with bionics for hearing which would have to be good otherwise it'd just be pointless. That's your answer, they simply didn't have the spare parts to give him anything.


LOTN. Why are you so afraid of calling out/acknowledging a bad plot device/author/book?


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## Words_of_Truth

The guy had lost his hearing after Marius Vairosean used his sonic weapon on him when he was part of the boarding party that attacked the ship after the iron father tested that stupid thing, there wasn't a lot of time between him losing his hearing to everything else that happened, plus the iron father was pissing about with his experiments and the apothecary was a salamander who was looking at the captain so neither of them could of done it anyway.


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## DjdaForce

Lord of the Night said:


> On a ship that barely had enough medical supplies for wounded marines, they couldn't supply him with bionics for hearing which would have to be good otherwise it'd just be pointless. That's your answer, they simply didn't have the spare parts to give him anything.


No, the ship obviously had a pretty good supply of augementics. I don't remember the name, but there was that Iron Hand Captain (or Seargent, whatever), the guy who lead the defence against the IW/EC Boarding Party riding a tank. His tank was blown up in the battle and he was thrown off. Later, it was mentioned that he had survived, but most of his body had to replaced with augementics (that was one of the moments I enjoyed, describing the transformation of the IH-Legion to augmentic half-robots, worhsipping the endurable machines). So there were enough supplies to restore that IH to a healthy/functional state a lot later, with a damaged ship, but the Terminator gets no new ears? Must be a costly thing to wire a transmitter to the brain! 

Also, that crazy Iron father could probably create a artifical hearing device from some tubes and a broken volcanite gun ^^

Just be honest, is that deaf IH-Terminator anything else but a anti-Noisemarine-Plotdevice? He could be named Jack Silencer (I would remember his name if it were so!) and it wouldn't be any less obvious!



Lord of the Night said:


> And? Going into the details with the Raven Guard in a Iron Warriors/Emperor's Children novel would have been too off-track. Besides it's explained that Sharrowkyn has a special ability, the exact details of it are confirmed in that novella yes, but enough is explained in the book that the reader understands.


Yeah sorry, but if McNeill just left out all that Honsou stuff there would have been enough free pages for some Raven Guard Lore. Also, lets hypothetically assume the following: In the Death of Integritiy, it is confirmed that Terminator Space Marines can backflip (but only super awesome Terminators can do it)! Would that make the Dawn of War Novles any better?

Don't get me wrong, I like Sharrowkyn! After Deliverance Lost, it was good to see some Raven Guard who don't act like total retards. But without the Backgroundstory, which came out half a year later ,it was just too much SuperNinjaAwesomeness...



Lord of the Night said:


> Because nobody got that option. Why didn't Horus just ask "Why have you left the Crusade?" Why didn't Sanguinius just ask "Can you help me with my Legion's flaw?" Why didn't Angron just ask "Why did you abduct me like that?" None of the Primarchs talked about their issues with the Emperor, which of course is one of the reasons the Heresy came about. LotN


Ok you are right, no Primarch talked about their father-issues with the emperor. Can't argue about that, but does it relly make Perturabos characterisation better? 
Let's compare ADB's Angron to McNeill's Perturabo: You just got the point, Angron should have asked himself, why didn't I talk to the emperor about his reasons to teleport me out? And thats exactlly what crosses Angron's mind in Betrayer, ADB just thought of that and wrote it down.
A little bit of self-reflection is just the thing I missed in Angel Exterminatus. I honestly have no clue how you judge the stuff you read, I compare it to the work of others. And McNeills P. just missed that little moment of "WTF am I doing and why?" that ADB's Angron had in Betrayer.


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## Lord of the Night

Words_of_Truth said:


> The guy had lost his hearing after Marius Vairosean used his sonic weapon on him when he was part of the boarding party that attacked the ship after the iron father tested that stupid thing, there wasn't a lot of time between him losing his hearing to everything else that happened, plus the iron father was pissing about with his experiments and the apothecary was a salamander who was looking at the captain so neither of them could of done it anyway.


Actually no that isn't correct. The Terminator in question lost his hearing on Istvaan, Chapter 6 or 7 of the book where he makes his first appearance (I checked prior to this post) shows that he is deaf there prior to the EC attack on the Sisypheum.



Malus Darkblade said:


> LOTN. Why are you so afraid of calling out/acknowledging a bad plot device/author/book?


You would think that wouldn't you. I get the impression from your posts that you feel because I don't share your views I am wrong and you are right. It couldn't be that I just like McNeill, Kyme and Swallow where you do not, and as such have good things to say about them rather than constant complaints. No it must be that I am afraid of offending the mighty Black Library authors, as if any of them are reading my posts and even if they are, would take the complaints of one fan as proof that their work is flawed.

Not everyone hates certain authors Malus. Though truthfully i've never seen you say a single good thing about a BL book so I'm not sure who you actually do like.



DjdaForce said:


> No, the ship obviously had a pretty good supply of augementics. I don't remember the name, but there was that Iron Hand Captain (or Sergeant, whatever), the guy who lead the defence against the IW/EC Boarding Party riding a tank. His tank was blown up in the battle and he was thrown off. Later, it was mentioned that he had survived, but most of his body had to replaced with augementics (that was one of the moments I enjoyed, describing the transformation of the IH-Legion to augmentic half-robots, worshipping the endurable machines). So there were enough supplies to restore that IH to a healthy/functional state a lot later, with a damaged ship, but the Terminator gets no new ears? Must be a costly thing to wire a transmitter to the brain!
> 
> Also, that crazy Iron father could probably create a artifical hearing device from some tubes and a broken volcanite gun ^^
> 
> Just be honest, is that deaf IH-Terminator anything else but a anti-Noisemarine-Plotdevice? He could be named Jack Silencer (I would remember his name if it were so!) and it wouldn't be any less obvious!


Perhaps it is a costly thing. I don't deny that you are correct, that the Iron Hand leader in question received many augmetics but perhaps his hearing wasn't afflicted. A bionic auditory receiver cannot be something that is easy to craft, it would have to be better than a Space Marine's normal hearing for it to be acceptable for them in normal situations, and getting a device to measure all the different spectrums of sound doesn't sound like something that can be jury-rigged. Or perhaps the Terminator refused such an augmetic, as a Mark of Istvaan. McNeill should have explained why restoring his hearing was not possible I admit, but there are explanations for it. I don't deny he is obviously a plot-device to fight the Noise Marines, though that said his deafness would not help him against one of the Noise Marine's cannons, it was only the purely sonic screech that Marius attacked them with that he was immune to. If Marius had fired his cannons the physical sensations would have ripped him apart. So he wasn't a new way to fight the marines, it was a lucky break that allowed them to kill one of the most prominent Emperor's Children. A plot device of course, but not an anti-Noise Marine one as you say.



DjdaForce said:


> Yeah sorry, but if McNeill just left out all that Honsou stuff there would have been enough free pages for some Raven Guard Lore. Also, lets hypothetically assume the following: In the Death of Integritiy, it is confirmed that Terminator Space Marines can backflip (but only super awesome Terminators can do it)! Would that make the Dawn of War Novles any better?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I like Sharrowkyn! After Deliverance Lost, it was good to see some Raven Guard who don't act like total retards. But without the Backgroundstory, which came out half a year later ,it was just too much SuperNinjaAwesomeness...


No it would not but these are two different things. Something that is impossible in the case of backflipping Terminators and something that is new and we don't understand fully in the case of the Shadowmasters. I think that he explained what Sharrowkyn was capable of and for the purpose of the novel that is enough, he didn't need to go into details about Raven Guard gene-seed, unique gifts and a elite force of soldiers and Corax's connection with them. Plus perhaps he could not go any further, the limited edition novella _Corax: Soulforge_ has a 1000 word short story about the Shadowmasters on the inside of it's dust-jacket that is all about explaining what they are and what they do, and sadly why the modern Raven Guard will never have them. And if McNeill went into full explanation about them that would make this exclusive short story pointless, and as it's in a limited edition people would be annoyed about that.



DjdaForce said:


> Ok you are right, no Primarch talked about their father-issues with the emperor. Can't argue about that, but does it relly make Perturabos characterisation better? Let's compare ADB's Angron to McNeill's Perturabo: You just got the point, Angron should have asked himself, why didn't I talk to the emperor about his reasons to teleport me out? And thats exactlly what crosses Angron's mind in Betrayer, ADB just thought of that and wrote it down. A little bit of self-reflection is just the thing I missed in Angel Exterminatus. I honestly have no clue how you judge the stuff you read, I compare it to the work of others. And McNeills P. just missed that little moment of "WTF am I doing and why?" that ADB's Angron had in Betrayer.


Ah that's what you mean, I thought you meant why didn't Perturabo actually just try and talk to the Emperor, not why didn't he think about doing so. Fair enough, that is some self-reflection that would have improved his character, of course it could never have happened because the Emperor doesn't view his sons as sons, he views them as tools that are above petty things as emotions and personal problems. Perhaps Perturabo saw that and realized early on that it was never going to happen, or that nobody ever caring enough to try and know what he wanted to achieve or what his dreams were poisoned him against talking to any of his family about personal things. And I judge the stuff I read on it's own merits rather than comparing it to others. If I compare an ADB book to, well practically anything else, am I going to find the other book lesser. Yes probably because ADB is my favourite author so i'll obviously like his stuff more. So I judge each book by what it has to offer rather than how it stacks up against the other things i've read.



Khorne's Fist said:


> I understand and can see all the faults and complaints that people have about the book, but it still managed to be a great read that I got through in a couple of days.


I feel the same way. I enjoyed the book, but I do get why many of you did not. Particularly the reuse of 40k characters, I get why people didn't like that and your reasons are valid. I enjoyed it and my reasons are valid. It's simply a book element that was guaranteed to be divisive.


LotN


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## Words_of_Truth

Lord of the Night said:


> Actually no that isn't correct. The Terminator in question lost his hearing on Istvaan, Chapter 6 or 7 of the book where he makes his first appearance (I checked prior to this post) shows that he is deaf there prior to the EC attack on the Sisypheum.
> 
> LotN


Ah ok, didn't the following attack on the Sisypheum make it worse though?


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## piemelke

I do not see the problem with a super-ninja RG, I also appreciated the strong difference with the lame RG from deliverance lost, they were just standard marines in blakc armour, 
I mean the traitors have tons of marines blessed by chaos with super powers, now there is one loyalist who also stands out a little (he is not invincible, since he is wounded at the end ) and it feels weird ? I liked it, more please.


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## Lord of the Night

piemelke said:


> I do not see the problem with a super-ninja RG, I also appreciated the strong difference with the lame RG from deliverance lost, they were just standard marines in blakc armour,
> I mean the traitors have tons of marines blessed by chaos with super powers, now there is one loyalist who also stands out a little (he is not invincible, since he is wounded at the end ) and it feels weird ? I liked it, more please.


Indeed. I think the best depiction of the Raven Guard thus far has come from George Mann in his audios and limited novella _The Unkindness of Ravens_. Now those were proper Ninja RG.


LotN


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## Roninman

Finished this few weeks ago and think is lower than average novel, it could have been good but too many low points thoughout novel. I would rate this on my scale maybe 5/10

Negative:
- Perturabo was quite likeable character, bit too much actually. He was different than what i read about him before. 
- Iron Hands parts of this book felt somewhat meaningless. Could have been other legion facing them, wouldnt had made much different.
- IH making planetfall in numbers and they are not detected with their landing craft around.
- Awfull lot of characters from Graham´s other books are featured here. Instead of 1-2 of them making cameo roles, this book is filled with them and centers around them. He seriously struggles with his characters. Everytime hundreds of normal Marines are killed, his sole survivors are his special characters. This is just awfull
-This book doesnt really go anywhere except makes Fulgrim rise to next level. 
- His super Raven guard. Graham has featured RG on his Ultramarine books before and while he is cool character, he is just too good. His Lucius is also another too exceptional and unbelievable character.

Positive:
- Quite liked seeing creations of Fabius though Imperial Fists eyes
- Few good confrontations between Fulgrim and Perturabo
- Like his crazy Emperors Children. 


This book is just wasted potential and main focus is on Fulgrims ascencion. Could have just been made as short story of this books last 100 pages.


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## Bobbyfbrewster

I quite enjoyed it myself. Found the pacing not always smooth but love how perturabo is portrayed a more complex character then a genetic bad guy. And good to see the emperor children firmly off their trolleys


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Actually, one positive that I can mention is the minor insight into the corruption of the Iron Warriors. Admittedly it was probably accidental (just to elaborate on his own 40k characters) rather than intentional, but Mcneill did manage to show that even the Iron Warriors (without dedicating themselves to Chaos like the Emperor's Children or Word Bearers) were slowly being corrupted. Kroegar and Falk being the main two developing strange traits which portrayed this.

This is something we have missed thus far in the series, and I hope is something that he will portray when he returns to Horus and the Sons of Horus.


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