# How many are left? (Loyalists from the Fallen Legions)



## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

As of not only at the end of the Horus Heresy, all the way up to current 40k timeline, how many Loyalists from the fallen/traitor legions are left? We know that while most were killed that remained loyal to the Emperor, some didn't (re: Garro, Qruze, ect). While I'm only on the 6th book in the HH line, if anyone has any updated info, I'd be curious as to how many are left.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

0 known all died in combat.


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## DelValle (Apr 22, 2011)

locustgate said:


> 0 known all died in combat.


In the year 40K? The above. 

Immediately after the Heresy? Not too many.


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## NetherMessenger (Aug 6, 2011)

When the Imperium finds out about them and is sure that they are pure, I doubt they'd go unused. But I also doubt they would want to join a different chapter. So most would likely go into the inquisition or other imperial orginizations. Would be a cool bit of fluff. An inquisitor Garro.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

0 as at this point they are either long dead from service to the imperium/crusading for redemption ect. Mind you their maybe 1-10 dreadnoughts running around that are from the traitor legions that are loyal to the emperor. In fact I an sure that one rogue emperors children dreadnought mentioned in the emperors children novel is still about somewhere. 

However can't really consider them a part of their former legions as they would have been reabsorbed into the loyalist chapters or sent on suicidal penitent crusades.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well Voyen, the Death Guard apothecary who was part of the Eisenstein crew decided to effectively 'retire' and try and find a cure for Nurgles Rot, what happened to him is anyone's guess, could have left Terra for field research or similar motives and been killed, been killed by the Rot whilst researching it, on the other hand he could still be on Terra now in a lab still trying, maybe even a dreadnought. The reason I bring Voyen up amongst all the others, is that the others all very likely continued fighting and after 10,000 years they are all likely dead(or potentially dreadnought), or in stasis somewhere ready for some deus ex machina scenario. Whereas Voyen stopped fighting.

As for the Emperors Children dreadnought I assume your talking about Ancient Rylanor? Last we know of he was in some underground hanger on Istvaan. I'm dearly hoping they aren't just going to forget about that little subplot.


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## Brother Emund (Apr 17, 2009)

Didn't he blow himself up?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Nah your thinking of the Death Guard dreadnought Huron-Fal who blew himself with Temeter in quite a good CMOA


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

In the year 40K, Magnus and I think Angron are both Deamon Primarchs, the Lion is being held in stasis somewhere (forgot where) and Leman Russ is still on a wild goose chase (I think, but nobody knows where he is or if he is still alive).

Immeditely after the HH though, I think all but like 9 were alive


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Hes asking about the astartes, but for the record immediately after the Heresy the majority of the primarchs were still alive, only Horus, Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus died in the Heresy. As of 40k further to the three just mentioned, Dorn, Guilliman and Curze are all confirmed dead aswell, the rest either deamon princes, unknown or in stasis(the Lion)

But yeah, were mainly talking about the astartes from the traitor legions who stayed loyal


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Dorn is not confirmed dead, it would be in the same context as saying Alpharius is confirmed dead.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Or Guilliman.

In b4 stasis drama.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Let's not get into Guilliman(despite the fact that the marine codex specifically states he is dead) but Dorn? You realise his skeleton is encased in amber within the Phlanx? Not a body in stasis, but a skeleton...in amber...in the words of the African American heart monitor, Aw he dead


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

I'd be willing to bet at least some of the fallen DA are loyal and still around... But they're loyalty isn't the most straightforward concept.


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## Lastik (Jun 15, 2011)

Cyleune said:


> In the year 40K, Magnus and I think Angron are both Deamon Primarchs, the Lion is being held in stasis somewhere (forgot where) and Leman Russ is still on a wild goose chase (I think, but nobody knows where he is or if he is still alive).
> 
> Immeditely after the HH though, I think all but like 9 were alive



The Lion is being held within The Rock, that's why he makes such a funny face :laugh:


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

one loyalist from the traitor legions that i'd really like to know more about is Warsmith Barabas Dantioch. He was freaking awesome. I'm sure he is dead though because he was already coughing up a lung in his story.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Let's not get into Guilliman(despite the fact that the marine codex specifically states he is dead)


edition and quote please

I recall something along the lines of placed in stasis at the moment of death, which isn't quite as definitive as "he dead"

EDIT:


Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Index Astartes: Ultramarines says "as he died, the Apothecaries set up their stasis fields"


does this mean "as he was dying, the Apothecaries set up their stasis fields"
or does this mean "he died while the Apothecaries set up their stasis fields"...


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## Takizuchi (Aug 27, 2010)

Four of the original grand masters of the grey knights hailed from traitor legions. Kinda ironic if you ask me. Not sure if they are still alive or not tho. More than likely not seeing as what they were chosen to fight.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> edition and quote please
> 
> I recall something along the lines of placed in stasis at the moment of death, which isn't quite as definitive as "he dead"


The latest one
Pg.14 last but one paragraph 'He is preserved in death' that doesn't say om the verge, that says dead, in the stasis field to prevent 'the decaying effects of time' in other words to prevent decomposition.

Pg.15 The Shrine Of The Primarch, 3rd paragraph 'upon that throne sits a regal corpse. Though the best part of ten thousand years have passed since his death, the Primarchs body is perfectly preserved. Even his death wounds...'
Again that doesnt say on the verge, it says death, death wound and corpse, nothing alive is referee to as a corpse, the very definition of the word is to describe a dead body.


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## Dînadan (Mar 7, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> EDIT:
> does this mean "as he was dying, the Apothecaries set up their stasis fields"
> or does this mean "he died while the Apothecaries set up their stasis fields"...


Sounds like they froze him at the instant of death, so it'd be a sort of Shrodinger's Cat situation, although regardless of which state he's in, the instant someone turned the stais off to find out, he'd definately be dead


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Got to love the as backwards tech in 40k they have stasis fields and some of the most advanced tech ever seen, but they can't bring someone back that just passed 3min ago because he was struck low by a magic chaos meguffin.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

Back on topic, how much was said about survivors from the traitor legions who remained loyalist? We know of what? 70 from the Death Company (Garro's Company, yes?). What of others?


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

Dînadan said:


> Sounds like they froze him at the instant of death, so it'd be a sort of Shrodinger's Cat situation, although regardless of which state he's in, the instant someone turned the stais off to find out, he'd definately be dead


Unless his Inhuman and strange body is slowly healing inside the stasis field. thats apparently a widespread rumour in the Ultramar region. (one of the first Uriel Venris novels)


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Diatribe1974 said:


> Back on topic, how much was said about survivors from the traitor legions who remained loyalist? We know of what? 70 from the Death Company (Garro's Company, yes?). What of others?



Yes 70 ish with garro. 5 Iron Warriors from the Short Iron Within. Loken and Qruze from the Luna Wolves. Arvida , a 1k Son the same book. Veran, A World Eater with Garro in Legion of one. 

I also add the 100 Astartes with Tarvitz at the end of Gif + Rylanor. 

My guess is around 200- 300 Total.

I will also say i think Loken is /STILL/ alive in 40k.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Well, the Blood Angels are said to be particularly longlived (which, in theory, means that Space Marines do have an expiration date). Whether Space Marines are immortal is still in debate, I think.

Even with this in mind, though, the vagaries of time in the warp, plus the Sus implant means any number could still be alive regardless of a limited lifespan.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> Yes 70 ish with garro. 5 Iron Warriors from the Short Iron Within. Loken and Qruze from the Luna Wolves. Arvida , a 1k Son the same book. Veran, A World Eater with Garro in Legion of one.
> 
> I also add the 100 Astartes with Tarvitz at the end of Gif + Rylanor.
> 
> ...





I thought Saul Tarvitz died on Isstvan III in Horus' final orbital bombardment?


Had to spoiler it for those who'd not the book yet.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Diatribe1974 said:


> I thought Saul Tarvitz died on Isstvan III in Horus' final orbital bombardment?
> 
> 
> Had to spoiler it for those who'd not the book yet.


Did you feel the same way about Loken? Most did.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Aye I mean granted Loken was burried under a building, but that bombardment was meant to wipe the city off Istvaans surface, if Loken could survive that, then anyone else should have been able to. Add the fact that Tarvitz seemingly had sone trump card underground hanger they could have gone to. It's going to be very annoying if they just forget about that hanger with Rylanor in it(and potentially others).


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

I remember a quote from Galaxy in Flames. It was during Horus's bombardment of the city.



"They didn't run into cover. There was little point."


Doesn't really give ANY indication that they were inside of an underground hangar. Plus it says that they were above ground inside that building or whatever. I think most, if not all, of them are dead. Some may have lived through the bombardment, but we won't know until they release a Horus Heresy book that explains this in detail.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

DeathJester921 said:


> I remember a quote from Galaxy in Flames. It was during Horus's bombardment of the city.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just because they did not run for cover dose not mean they died. I agree that the Hanger was not what saved Tarvitz. I don't think they were even close to it at the end. It would not make any since for them to be near the place they needed to keep a secret. They were most likely on the other side of the city from it. The fact that we know there was a Hanger however is important. There would be no reason to mention it if it was not used later. The fact that we know Rylanor was sent to guard it to me means that the hanger held something VERY valuable. That to me Screams a ship. 

I think the Bombs missed them. Well at least did not score a direct hit. Loken was under rubble but the Dead Torgodden was not. His head was still in his lap. That tells me the building they were in was not hit. his Armour was also recognizable by Garro. I think that Tarvitz survived by what some may call Plot Armour. I think of it as Divine Intervention. The hand of the Emperor shielded them. The "Emperor Protects". I think that Tarvits somehow manged to manifest the Shrouding, from the Grey Knight Powers.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> Just because they did not run for cover dose not mean they died. I agree that the Hanger was not what saved Tarvitz. I don't think they were even close to it at the end. It would not make any since for them to be near the place they needed to keep a secret. They were most likely on the other side of the city from it. The fact that we know there was a Hanger however is important. There would be no reason to mention it if it was not used later. The fact that we know Rylanor was sent to guard it to me means that the hanger held something VERY valuable. That to me Screams a ship.
> 
> I think the Bombs missed them. Well at least did not score a direct hit. Loken was under rubble but the Dead Torgodden was not. His head was still in his lap. That tells me the building they were in was not hit. his Armour was also recognizable by Garro. I think that Tarvitz survived by what some may call Plot Armour. I think of it as Divine Intervention. The hand of the Emperor shielded them. The "Emperor Protects". I think that Tarvits somehow manged to manifest the Shrouding, from the Grey Knight Powers.


Loken and the dead torgaddon were in a building on the other side of the city from the precentors palace. Plus, I believe Abbadon and Aximand were still in that self same building, or very near to it, when the bombs hit. Horus wouldn't want to kill them with the bombs.

The hangar was underneath the palace I think. 
The fact that the marines can actually see the bombs coming down on them and the city suggests that they were out in the open and got hit. Horus knew what building they were in. No grey knight powers could hide that from him, so unless he manifested some sort of shield that blocked the bombardment and blocked the precentors palace from view (which Horus would have caught onto. I giant blank spot in the city just screams "Hey look, theres something invisible here!"), it means they were probably hit. Plus it says Horus was thorough in his bombardment. That suggests that he missed very little of the city.

And why does everyone resort to the "just because they didn't run for cover doesn't mean they died" line? Just because they didn't run for cover doesn't mean they lived either. Like I said above, we wont know until they write another book that explains what happened in detail, but I still believe that most, if not all, of them are dead. The tone of the passage is one of finality which isn't good. So I'm sticking by what I said.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I agree, but Lokens last part screams out dead aswell, it's just as final, yet he lives.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

DeathJester921 said:


> Loken and the dead torgaddon were in a building on the other side of the city from the precentors palace. Plus, I believe Abbadon and Aximand were still in that self same building, or very near to it, when the bombs hit. Horus wouldn't want to kill them with the bombs.


Nope, sorry. You got his wrong. There is no way Horus would bomb the city with his 2 remaining Mournival in it. on page 401 GiF, he asked Maloghurst "Have all surface units retured to their posts?" Lil Horus and Abaddon were long gone when Loken woke up under the pile of rubble. They boarded a Stormbird on page 401 in GiF. 


DeathJester921 said:


> The hangar was underneath the palace I think.
> The fact that the marines can actually see the bombs coming down on them and the city suggests that they were out in the open and got hit. Horus knew what building they were in. No grey knight powers could hide that from him, so unless he manifested some sort of shield that blocked the bombardment and blocked the precentors palace from view (which Horus would have caught onto. I giant blank spot in the city just screams "Hey look, theres something invisible here!"), it means they were probably hit. Plus it says Horus was thorough in his bombardment. That suggests that he missed very little of the city.


No ware dose it say where the hanger was. If it were under the Palace as you say i think Lucius would know. Lucius did not know were it was. Tarvitz did not trust him with that info. 

Horus did not drop the bombs himself. He gave a command, to Maloghurst. "Bomb the city. Wipe it off the the face of the planet." He must have passed the order down the chain of command to some sevitor. Also, Horus did not know what building they were in. There was nothing to stop the Loyalists from moving to a different part of the city when his troops fell back. Even if he did know for sure what building they were in , Orbital bombardments are by their nature Inaccurate. Look up the rules for them in the game. Even if you "hit" u still miss. And as for the Shrouding, it dose not put a black blob over your target on a screen. It reaches into the mind of the shooter to confuse them. Against guess range weapons like a bombardment it doubles the distance you roll on your deviation. That means on a miss they would be x4 distance. on a "hit" you still x2 distance.

Also don't forget about the Death Guard who were in a whole different part of the city. 


DeathJester921 said:


> And why does everyone resort to the "just because they didn't run for cover doesn't mean they died" line? Just because they didn't run for cover doesn't mean they lived either. Like I said above, we wont know until they write another book that explains what happened in detail, but I still believe that most, if not all, of them are dead. The tone of the passage is one of finality which isn't good. So I'm sticking by what I said.


Well.... as far as i can count i am the ONLY one who thinks that they both did /not/ run for cover and /did/ live. These two do not seem to go together. That is why i feel it was something like the Shrouding. No other answer seems to fit. It was made clear from 2 different accounts that Tarvits did not run for cover. Yet to me it is clear he lives. Only dumb luck or divine intervention can explain this away.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> Nope, sorry. You got his wrong. There is no way Horus would bomb the city with his 2 remaining Mournival in it. on page 401 GiF, he asked Maloghurst "Have all surface units retured to their posts?" Lil Horus and Abaddon were long gone when Loken woke up under the pile of rubble. They boarded a Stormbird on page 401 in GiF. Woopy. I got a detail wrong. It really didn't have anything to do with the overall conversation. I was just saying that they were in a building across the city from the precentors palace.
> 
> No ware dose it say where the hanger was. If it were under the Palace as you say i think Lucius would know. Lucius did not know were it was. Tarvitz did not trust him with that info. I believe it mentions it in Fulgrim, but i'm not sure. I'm pretty sure it mentions the location of the hangar in one of the books.
> 
> ...


I seriously think he died. But thats just my opinion. Your opinion is that he lived. We can argue over the validity of our opinions all we want, but we don't know for sure what happened. I'm going based off of the tone of the book, and what I see as evidence in the text. I'm not sure what your going off of.



> I agree, but Lokens last part screams out dead aswell, it's just as final, yet he lives.


Yes. I think Loken just got lucky that the rubble didn't crush the life out of him. Hell, it probably shielded him from the bombardment if it even got close. To me, Horus's main target for bombardment was the precentors palace, where Tarvitz and his band were holing up in, and Loken was across the city from the palace. His collapsed building may have been missed all together. Even with the thoroughness of the bombardment, some things may have been missed. I doubt the palace was missed. Too big of a target.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

DeathJester921 said:


> I'm going based off of the tone of the book, and what I see as evidence in the text. I'm not sure what your going off of.


When the Idea of the Horus Heresy was first introduced to us, it included a story of Istvaan III, in the 80's if i remember right. In it a group of loyalists escaped on a thunder hawk and took the Eisenstein back to Earth. The loyalists survivors included Garro, Varren and Tarvitz. Now that Verran has shown up in the new books i am even more convinced, that Tarvitz will apear again. 

The secound reason i think he lives is a promis he makes to his Honer Brother Garro in GiF pg218.
"The next time we see each one another, it'll be on Terra' said Tarvitz.
'_If_ we meet again my brother'
'We will, Nathaniel,' promised Tarvitz. 'By the Emperor, i swear it.'
May the luck of Terra be with you' said Garro and the vox went dead."

This is a Oath of Moment, made between Honer brothers, in the name of the Emperor. I just don't see why a author would put this kind of exchange in a book if it is not foreshadowing.

I have a couple more reasons i feel Tarvitz will live but they will not sway those who feel he is dead.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Horus wanted that entire city wiped off the face of Istvaan, all loyalists dead, even ones they might have missed that weren't in the Precentors Palace, he didn't want to take any chances. There is no way the rubble would have protected Loken from an orbital bombardment, it's simply plot armour at the end of the day that saved his life. And if Loken can survive that especially in the state he was already in, then anyone can. There would have been plenty of rubble falling on the astartes within the Palace, just like Loken, it's not unfeasable at all for Tarvitz to have been trapped under some and live aswell. Plus i'm pretty sure the Basillica(whatever the building was) that Loken was in would have been a target aswell. The last time Abaddon saw Loken he was alive, there was no confirmation of his death. Yet Abaddon and the rest are 100% certain Loken is dead after the events of Istvaan, it stands to reason that they would have specifcally targeted the building aswell, just in case.

Also the location of the bunkers location is never mentioned. The only book that mentions it is Fulgrim, and theres no location given, merely that Rylanor was sent there.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Horus wanted that entire city wiped off the face of Istvaan, all loyalists dead, even ones they might have missed that weren't in the Precentors Palace, he didn't want to take any chances. There is no way the rubble would have protected Loken from an orbital bombardment, it's simply plot armour at the end of the day that saved his life. And if Loken can survive that especially in the state he was already in, then anyone can. There would have been plenty of rubble falling on the astartes within the Palace, just like Loken, it's not unfeasable at all for Tarvitz to have been trapped under some and live aswell. Plus i'm pretty sure the Basillica(whatever the building was) that Loken was in would have been a target aswell. The last time Abaddon saw Loken he was alive, there was no confirmation of his death. Yet Abaddon and the rest are 100% certain Loken is dead after the events of Istvaan, it stands to reason that they would have specifcally targeted the building aswell, just in case.
> 
> Also the location of the bunkers location is never mentioned. The only book that mentions it is Fulgrim, and theres no location given, merely that Rylanor was sent there.


I agree 100%. My only issue with your words is the use of "plot armour". Can you do no better? Have you no speculation on what form this "plot armour" will take? Please tell me you dont think it will be the dumb luck kind. My idea of the "plot armour" is the Shrouding. 

Also, from what you have read do you feel Tarviz _WILL_ come back? You seem to have all the known facts down, but what about looking forward.


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## Meshakhad (Apr 30, 2010)

I think that it's implied that at least some of them - specifically, the loyalist Death Guard - went on to found the Inquisition. A couple were selected by the Emperor to help found the Grey Knights. It is also suggested by some that the Blood Ravens descend from Traitor Legion loyalists, probably Thousand Sons.

I really doubt that they would have been absorbed into the loyalist legions. To my knowledge, no Space Marine has ever switched chapters (or legions). Apart from any Blood Raven progenitors, the new Inquisition likely sucked up most of them.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> I agree 100%. My only issue with your words is the use of "plot armour". Can you do no better? Have you no speculation on what form this "plot armour" will take? Please tell me you dont think it will be the dumb luck kind. My idea of the "plot armour" is the Shrouding.
> 
> Also, from what you have read do you feel Tarviz _WILL_ come back? You seem to have all the known facts down, but what about looking forward.


By plot amour i mean just that. The only reason Loken survived is because they needed him alive, theres just no way he should have survived the bombardment, yet he did. I don't really like the idea of any of them suddenly manifesting psychic powers like the shrouding, be a bit too much of a deus ex machina issue for me. People seem to explain Loken surviving simply because he had rubble ontop of him. If thats the case, my reason for Tarvitz surviving is rubble ontop of him aswell. 

As for whether he WILL come back or not, i'm not sure. I think he might though, simply because of the hanger. Had no reference been made to Rylanor being sent to guard some underground hanger then i would have believed Tarvitz to be dead. But theres simply no reason to mention the hanger if its not going to come up later. And Rylanor is just so minor a character it just doesn't seem worth it for him, which is why i believe Tarvitz might have survived the bombardment like Loken, maybe along with Vipus and some others, then made his way to the hanger and gone from there.


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## Lord of Rebirth (Jun 7, 2008)

Not sure about -all- the fluff but considering they have a few marines just before the heresy that seem to actually be getting weak and disabled from age (Iactron of the Luna Wolves?) I'd say not even those legendary marines would be living longer than 500 years.

The Traitor marines that live into the current timeline all seem to have been warped and bolstered by chaos in a variety of ways. Many have suffered time drops at various times so they have not actually "lived" the full 10,000 years for a start then beyond that a lot seem to fight for the glory of chaos in a variety of ways and this likely pleases the chaos gods to allow them to live longer. I mean if a normal human can become a champion of chaos and get beneficial mutations and extended life then a marine who would naturally live a lot longer and is much more prized by the chaos gods is likely to get a lot more bonuses.

Some of the older stories I had read made it seem like there are a lot of chaos marines that live like somewhat pampered rockstars with minions that clean their armour and bring them stuff so I imagine in general chaos likes them a lot.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> People seem to explain Loken surviving simply because he had rubble ontop of him. If thats the case, my reason for Tarvitz surviving is rubble ontop of him aswell.


This, to me is Meh. After hearing Legion of One, it is clear that the building Loken was in/ under, was not even hit. Other then Loken living, there are clues that say this clearly. Torgoddon still had his head in his lap as if he had not moved since Lil Horus cut it off. His armour was recognizable with lil effort by Garro. His head was not a smear on the ground/ wall. If the building had gotten hit i think none of this, including Loken living, would have been so. As people would tell me when i tried to convince them Loken would live, the Bombs dropped on the city were meant to kill Navel ships. A few feet of rubble would be close to worthless against them. A Direct hit on the building would have ended all speculation. 

For some reason Horus missed. I know i think Horus was not the shooter but however you dress it up, it was a fail. The reason why the bombs missed is the real question. I think we can rule out incompetence. Dumb luck would so weak there is NO way Dan Abnett would let that be the reason. And if they missed Loken they could have missed Tarvitz, and maybe for the same reason. 

I feel it was Divine Intervention. The Emperor "Moved" the bombs aside to protect his Loyal sons. He did this /AFTER/ they showed their devotion to him beyond any doubt. In their hour of most need, HE provided them a miracle to answer their prayers. Gods are REAL in warhammer. They listen to their worshipers and bless them with their favor. Would Khorne let Khârn die in some bombardment? Slaanesh would turn his back on Lucius? No way. So why can't the Emperor intervene (Shrouding) on the behalf of Loken and Tarvitz? Rubble? The Emperor Protects!


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