# Warriors of Chaos weapons



## rsowell (Jul 20, 2009)

So I just bought the WoC battalion and know very little about Fantasy. 
I have a few weapon options for the knights/warriors/marauders and I am looking for some insight from experienced players.

After reading the codex it looks like WoC excel at durability and close combat.

The three options seem to be shields, dual wielding, and great weapons. I understand this is situational some races will likely call for certain weapons, but as a new player I'm looking to glue some decent options for my first set.

As an extra note... what would do well VS Dark Elves? A friend is picking up his battalion on Wednesday.


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## Ascendant Valor (Jan 3, 2009)

The best-rounded setup for Warriors of Chaos is to take a shield and a halberd. You can then choose between some extra power or some solid defense. You can also make use of the shield to preserve your units as they cross into the Dark Elves' side of the table.

Extra Hand Weapon is usually not worth it. An extra attack at S4 is only decent against LOTS of T3 models (so horde armies only). Great Weapons deny your ability to use the Warriors' high Initiative value, though the extra Strength is sometimes worthwhile...


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

The halberds are nice, but ultimately, not that necessary. I've found that it's better to just take the basic strength and the bonus from using a hand weapon and shield. That gives you a 2+ save in close combat, so even against units with great weapons, you'll often get a 4+ save at the worst-- which is really good. Since Warriors have two attacks apiece base, it's not like you're seriously hampering their damage output by not giving them another weapon. It keeps their cost down, too, and they're expensive enough with just hand weapons and shields that it's better to just leave them be like that-- they get the job done as is.

I play an army of Khorne. The huge thing about Warriors with the Mark of Khorne is that they fight like any other god's unit of Warriors with dual hand weapons, but can do it while fighting with a hand weapon and shield. Frenzy gives you +1 attack, so with a hand weapon and shield, each model is throwing out three attacks at WS5-- there's just not a lot out there that can stand up to that. 

Dark Elves tend to be somewhat shooty and tend to have a lot of fast cavalry-- you're going to want to pick up some Warhounds (every Chaos army should have 'em, because they're dirt cheap and make it a lot harder for you to get outflanked) and some Marauder Horsemen if you're going to be fighting Dark Elves regularly. Marauder Horsemen are superior to Dark Riders, in my opinion, and can reliably intercept them before they flank one of your units or cause a unit that's Frenzied to go off chasing them. 

Against Dark Elves, I've found marauders relatively useless-- they're great as cannon fodder in any army, and are good enough to do light fighting (against other "3's" units-- Empire State Troops, Goblins, Orcs, Skaven, etc.) However, they're indisposable as screens for your Warriors. While the Warhounds and Marauder Horsemen intercept fast cavalry well, and protect your flanks from fast-moving units, Marauders form solid infantry wings for your advance, and often force your opponent to choose between exposing their flank to the Marauders or the Warriors. Against quick enemy infantry, or enemy infantry with good ranged attacks (which is anything with pointy ears of the Dark, High, or Wood variety), the Marauders can help block line of sight, too, which will ensure your Warriors get to where they need to be with their ranks more or less intact.


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Against shooting marauders units of 15 or so with the mark of slanesh are invaluable screens. This helps keep the warriors alive against enemy magic! This way your warriors will actually make it to combat, my Tzeentch army pretty much kills an entire warrior army by itself due to high strength magic. Once a screen is present it's a lot harder. Marauder horsemen aren't that great, I prefer the hounds personally.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Shields and Great Weapons are the combo on them. You will most of the times only have 12 models in the unit due to heavy pricetag and thus you want to maximize its killyness.

Shields are for helping out against missiles, and when you get charged by something remotely dangerous. Falling back behind a 2+ AS is neat indeed 

If you charge on the other hand you want to annihilate the opponent. S4 is too shitty to manage that. This rules out Dual Wield:nono:

Halberds lets you up to S5 which makes life easier, sadly many things have either T4, and/or 3+ save. If your opponent packs both your halberds will struggle too. If, like you most likely will, you play against pansy elves or other T3 armies then yea this would be the weapon of choice thanks to its cheaper price 

GWs are, in a TAC enviroment, for the win. Nothing short of it. S6 will wound all infantry in the game on 2+ and -3 AS is enough to even make 3+ save more or less useless, and 2+ saves becomes very unreliable. Even "dead hard 1+ AS cav" will be weary whilst threading nearby due to the sheer killingpower of many S6 attacks. If you have MoK on the unit and dont get GWs then you fail youre homework. 19 WS5 S6 A will completely crush whatever you can charge:biggrin:


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## Othiem (Apr 20, 2008)

I want to believe in halberds, after all I5 is a terrible thing to waste....and I just ordered the metal halberd bits from GW, but I am seriously stretching my brain to come up with a situation where I would choose a halberd over a GW. Hordes are unable to put a dent in your troops even if they go first, so you'd rather have that extra point of strength for armor piercing. Versus elite units, they're likely charging you so you'd go last anyways and can often match your I5. Against cavalry you're not going first on the charge, and the extra strength to break through their armor is huge. Cav do worse in a sustained fight than you do, so going last in the next rounds of combat isn't a big deal. 

I guess halberds would be superior versus Sarus warriors with spears, but so far that's all I have. Anybody else have examples of when they found halberds superior?


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Othiem said:


> I want to believe in halberds, after all I5 is a terrible thing to waste....and I just ordered the metal halberd bits from GW, but I am seriously stretching my brain to come up with a situation where I would choose a halberd over a GW....
> I guess halberds would be superior versus Sarus warriors with spears, but so far that's all I have. Anybody else have examples of when they found halberds superior?


Thats exactly the point. GWs does almost everything a halberd does, except letting you fight on I5. On the other hand GWs are so extremely much more killy that there is alot higher chance that there is no second round, thus making the "strike last" flaw moot.

Halberds would maybe be good against Saurus in a drawn out fight but then comes the questions: 
If you charge, wouldnt GWs had been better? Yes they would, every day of the week!
If you get charged by Spearus youre most likely using your shield anyways to prevent losses, stay in combat and hopefully dish in some help in their flank:wink:


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## Othiem (Apr 20, 2008)

Actually ran the numbers on the Saraus example, with both frontages of 5, warriors with GWs only win on the charge by 1, and that's before you figure the rest of combat res, and Saraus probably outnumber. Then if you do win there's cold blood. Expanding to a larger frontage gets worse for wars. Of course that's before taking marks into account, as additional attacks or dropping saraus to WS 2 could make a massive difference. 

The thinking I'm coming around to is that GWs give you a superior expected value, however halberds minimize the damage of the worse case scenario. Guess I'll see how each of them works out and compare.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

As someone who plays a pure army of Khorne (insofar as that if there's a mark, it's Khorne, or there's no mark at all), and I've found that a unit of 15 Warriors of Khorne armed with hand weapons and shields actually will beat a unit of 20 Saurus Warriors with spears more often than not.

The numbers look like this:
-With full command, the front rank of Warriors throws 16 attacks. If the Warriors charge, they strike first, obviously. If they get charged, they take 11 attacks from the spear-armed Saurus, since spears don't function when you charge. Of those 11 attacks, about 6 hit, and 3 wound. You should, statistically, lose one Warrior (-1 to save, 2+ in combat from Chaos Armour, Hand Weapon, Shield). In that case, you throw 13 attacks back.

-Warriors are WS5 vs. the Saurus WS3. So of those 16/13 attacks, 11/8 hit. S4 against T4 gives you even odds of wounding, so 6/4 wound. The Saurus have a 4+ save base since you'd be a fool not to give them shields, -1 for the Warrior's S4. That's 4/3 casualties, on average. 

-Their return attacks are from 5 Saurus and their Champion, if your Unit Champion/Exalted Hero didn't butcher it in a challenge. So, you'll take 11 attacks, of which 6 hit, and 3 wound. You should lose 1 warrior to that.

-You've got two ranks, and a standard, so +3. They should have three ranks and a standard (+4). Whether they charged or not, you've got a decent chance of having lost only one Warrior. They have likely lost 3 or 4 Saurus. That puts your combat resolution at 7 or 8, and theirs at likely 5. You'll win by three points on average. 

Point for point, the units cost about the same, too. 

Now, without the Mark, it's a slightly different issue. But, when in doubt, *Blood for the Blood God.*


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## Audun54 (Jul 24, 2009)

I run a Tzeentch/Khorne list and so far its worked pretty well for me, dont play in any competitive situation just friendly, give my Tzeentch warriors shields and my Khorne warriors extra handweapons
why? Because there is nothing that says Khorne like a sizable unit of big screaming madmen in red armor causing a whirlwind of destruction around them with dual axes


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

The Son of Horus said:


> As someone who plays a pure army of Khorne (insofar as that if there's a mark, it's Khorne, or there's no mark at all), and I've found that a unit of 15 Warriors of Khorne armed with hand weapons and shields actually will beat a unit of 20 Saurus Warriors with spears more often than not....
> 
> Stuff...


Warriors should have had Shields in their basic equipment since its not acceptable skipping them.
If you mark them for the Blood God youre of LOTS better of with GWs! Not giving MoK Warriors GWs is imho just as stupid as taking a Dragon mounted character and keeping his mundane HW for him to fight with:nono:

Math details ensuing:
You rank 2 wider then the Saurus, so if they rank 5 you rank 7 wide, fuck more then 1 rank. 22 S6 attacks will _annihilate_ the Saurus unit if you charge. You will dish in some 12,3 S6 wounds on them, good luck there frog-town-men, even when hiding behind HW+Shield youve killed 10,2 of them on 1 sweep, wont get hit back noticeably, will have outnumber and will smoke them by winning combat with 8,2, or 10,3 if the dude doesnt realise they should drop the sticks and defend their scaly asses:biggrin:

If you are bound to be charged then rank em if you feel unsure in the movement phase prior to the charge. You take 0.92 losses before doing 4,2/4,8 back. Combat results in Saurus on 5.92 CR and you on 6,2/6,8, winning so marginally that there is abysmally low chance that the Saurus breaks. Next turn the Saurus will throw lots of attacks at you thanks to Spears which might get messy.

*Or* you take the losses like a true Blood God follower and use GWs anyways. You take 1,83 losses before dealing 16/19 S6 attacks back. 8,9/10,6 Saurus will fall to frantic head-chopping Blood God worshippers. Once again you win combat, but this time with a lot more points. Saurus has 5,83 CR while you have 11,9/13.6 thus winning combat with 6/8 and once again sending them scaly assed reptiles running desperately:biggrin:

Great Weapons are the Fantasy equivalent of Railguns, the blessed weapon of allslaying. Dont go half-assed, there aint no such kill as overkill!


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## chrisb3 (Sep 12, 2009)

I use khorne dual weilding warriors.

25 attacks from a unit 6 wide annihilates weaker units and you roll enough dice to get a few hits on elite units. The 5 attacks from the unit champion can take down any other champion and quite a few heroes.


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

chrisb3 said:


> I use khorne dual weilding warriors.
> 
> 25 attacks from a unit 6 wide annihilates weaker units and you roll enough dice to get a few hits on elite units. The 5 attacks from the unit champion can take down any other champion and quite a few heroes.


Take said stikka-Saurus from example above. You charge in with your HWs and do 5,6 wounds on them. You suffer 1,7 wounds back. CR leaves you on 7,6 and them on 6,7, thus winning with a measly 1, not breaking the Saurus by any chance, and getting bogged down and open for flankcharge.

Once again the GWs will render a much better result:taunt:


I, personally, dont care fuck all about "weaker units" when I design units with equipment options. Killing "weaker units" is something almost every unit can do. Its totally irrelevant if the CWs "only" kill 12,3 skavens/men at arms/swordmen. The important thing is that they kill 12,3 Black Orks/Hammerers/Saurus. Designing crack-elite headchopping murderers, amongst the best R'n'F units in the game, for killing "weaker units" is like sending grandma to a weightlifting contest, totally pointless:nono:
I want my elite units to be able to kill anything, even more so when they cost about the CW prize-tag! And everything is sub-par to GWs on this part when talking about the sheer killing power of CWs:read:


To sum my point up: S6 attacks grows better and better the more of them you have. Throwing 20 S6 attacks will force the god of random to fist himself into accepting his own existence, thus getting a fairly predictable result. In other words: you can not fail some 10ish to wound rolls on 2+. 
S4 attacks are still unreliable even with heaps of them since you wound about half the units in the game on a shitty 4+.


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