# The First Heretic and Firedrake Extracts



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Two brand new extracts are up on the Black Library. The next installment of the Horus Heresy _The First Heretic_ by Mr Aaron Dembski-Bowden and Firedrake by Mr Nick Kyme. Enjoy them, I know I did.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/f/first-heretic-the.pdf

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/f/firedrake.pdf




Well _The First Heretic_ extract is definitely interesting. Lorgar, like Horus Lupercal, has been given a last name, Lorgar Aurelian. Very interesting, and I quite like him so far. The ability to go from quiet and reserved to raging and threatening is very impressive, and tough to write so hats off to ADB. And the description of The Emperor at the end is very intriguing, stark contrasts all in one being. I eagerly await this novel even more so.

And Lorgar backhanding Malcador was awesome!. If anyone has any doubts about ADB writing the Word Bearers over Anthony Reynolds then hopefully this extract will excise those doubts.






Nick Kyme has chosen well. Brining the Forgefather Vulkan He'stan into the series is a very nice move, a famous Space Marine character who's never been written before. I hope he plays a big role in _Firedrake_, and _Nocturne_ as well.

And the Librarius training of Dak'ir continues. We've seen in Space Wolf how a mortal becomes a Space Marine, now we shall see how a Space Marine becomes a Librarian. Something entirely new for Black Library, and something I look forward to reading about. Plus a giant rock golem, awesome!.


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## Old Man (Jul 24, 2010)

I liked the extract from The First Heretic, even though Lorgar did seem a bit like a prat, throwing a tantrum in front of his whole legion.
With the Imperiums secular outlook he should have know what was coming...


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## Turkeyspit (Jun 11, 2010)

Not really sure which book I'm more excited to read: ADB has really impressed me so far with _Soul Hunter_, but _Salamander_ was one of the best SM books I've read thusfar.. :headbutt:


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Old Man said:


> I liked the extract from The First Heretic, even though Lorgar did seem a bit like a prat, throwing a tantrum in front of his whole legion.
> With the Imperiums secular outlook he should have know what was coming...


Im amazed he was able to stay cool for as long as he did. I would have greeted Guilliman by hitting him, and throttled Malcador within an inch of his life.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Old Man said:


> I liked the extract from The First Heretic, even though Lorgar did seem a bit like a prat, throwing a tantrum in front of his whole legion.
> With the Imperiums secular outlook he should have know what was coming...


Should he? He's crusaded for a century, killing billions, raising the second-largest Legion in the Imperium - literally _a hundred years of bloodshed_ - creating worlds that consider the Emperor as a god, without once being told to stop before now. And from his view now, after a century of loyalty and effort, he's being utterly humiliated in the most stark, offensive, unfair way - while his entire system of belief is being dismantled and he's told his entire life has been a lie.

Perspective is everything.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Should he? He's crusaded for a century, killing billions, raising the second-largest Legion in the Imperium - literally _a hundred years of bloodshed_ - creating worlds that consider the Emperor as a god, without once being told to stop before now. And from his view now, after a century of loyalty and effort, he's being utterly humiliated in the most stark, offensive, unfair way - while his entire system of belief is being dismantled and he's told his entire life has been a lie.
> 
> Perspective is everything.


Just give away the whole plot why don't ya Aaron!!!


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Oi Dembski-Bowden find out if the Secret War will be covered in the HH series and if it is put your name forwards for it.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

One thing thats somewhat troubling about the actions undertaken by Malcador and Guilliman. They trashed that colony because it worshipped the Emperor... so what has happened all the other worlds that Lorgar brought into compliance?.

They wouldn't kill all those worlds, would they?.


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## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Forced 're-education' would be my bet. By forced, I mean bolt pistol to head forced.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

If all the worlds that Lorgar converted were destroyed then its not surprise he turned to Chaos. They appreciate hard work in their name, not despise it. And if your doing it wrong they tell you right away, rather then let you keep going.


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## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

I can't say I enjoyed either of the extracts if I am honest, none of them kept me interested after the first six or so PDF pages....Though, when I scanned over, I was glad to see Argel Tal (Who, if I am remembering the correct character, is the bodyguard of Lorgar according to Collected Visions.) and the inclusion of He'stan in Firedrake is also nice! I guess I need to await for the actual novels, now then..


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

Lord of the Night said:


> If all the worlds that Lorgar converted were destroyed then its not surprise he turned to Chaos. They appreciate hard work in their name, not despise it. And if your doing it wrong they tell you right away, rather then let you keep going.


Thats whole whole point really.

The Big E is like jesus: helps those who help themselves.

Chaos gods more like chuck norris? He's your friend, no round house kick to the balls. If he's pissed of at you then standby...standby...WALLOP!


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Was definetly interested in the First Heretic extract. I agree that its quite justified to see how Lorgar reacted. Like its been said, Lorgar based evrything on his worship of the Emperor, he wrote an entire book on it which then became the founding ideology of the Emperor of Man in modern 40k, all the planets he brought to compliance were the most loyal of all imperial worlds due to his faith and methods. To have all of that torn out from under him in such a brutal fashion. I'm suprised he gave them chance to land.


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## CursedUNTILLDEATH (Apr 25, 2010)

If i read The First heretic i will have to start a word bearers army...curse you BL authors and your abliltiy to control my purchses!

Other wise its nice to see the emperor being put in the spotlight and ive been waiting for lorgars story for queit a time as i have always seen him depictied as the most hated of the fallen primarchs next to horus (or maybe above), and i am loving the stories behind the fall of many of the other primarchs. Makes you feel sorry for some of them (Konrad Curze, Fulgrim,Lorgar,Magnus the red, Aragon) putting a face behind the monsters. Thank you to all BL authors who put forward their best efforts to make this series epic.:victory:


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

The more I read HH, the more I side with certain Primarchs, these perfectly imperfect MEN, are reflections of the Emperor. And honestly, I believe he is under the impression that they are extensions of his will and can basically run forever doing perfectly fine like a nuclear clock.

They are human, they were raised/interacted with humans, and man is but the sum of his expereinces.

The Emp is a total failure for not seeing this. But then, he is so focused on secrets and his great works that he really only has eyes for his only son. The Son who laid him low.

Guilliman is a ....... I really wish Alpha Legion infiltrates Mccragge and takes the body of that git.

As for Emp, that corpse god, sowed the seeds of his own demise. If he had spent less time scheming and more time realising he didn't have automations but SONS, he would have been finished the Crusade.

I have long since suspected, and has been proven the more HH books I read that the Emp is basically just as bad as the Chaos gods in that he really cared nothing about the individual, including his own sons.

After claiming to "let in the Light" and having a problem with Assasinating his Fav son, he and his cronies had no problems assasinating Night Haunter. What Magnus did was FAR worse in terms of damage than destroying a planet that was gone bad, and becuase Emp knew he needed him alive to be the battery for the Golden Throne, he sent that mongrel to capture him.

I applaud Magnus, the only thing he should have done differently was destroy the entire Space Wolves fleet from space.

They are all boundless hypocrites and the state of the Imperium is a reflection of thier unfettered hubris and delusion.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed. The best thing about the Horus Heresy novels is that it shows the Primarchs in a different light


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Old Man said:


> I liked the extract from The First Heretic, even though Lorgar did seem a bit like a prat, throwing a tantrum in front of his whole legion.
> With the Imperiums secular outlook he should have know what was coming...


Guilleman is my least liked primarch, and to be honest I've always been quite disapointed at how much the Ultramarines have benefitted more than any other legion after the heresy. Not to mention the fanaticsim the current Imperium is in after the Emperor threw away his most loyal son. So it actually put a smile on my face to see Logar punch him in the face.



Lord of the Night said:


> Im amazed he was able to stay cool for as long as he did. I would have greeted Guilliman by hitting him, and throttled Malcador within an inch of his life.


I agree. I'm actually kind of tired of Logar being looked at as the bitch of the Heresy. The one who started it all and how his fanaticism destroyed the Imperium. I actually think this will be one of the most looked at pieces of the Heresy even if its not good (no offense ADB) and it will be due to the insight of the first primarch and Legion that turned to chaos. I think its gonna be looked at as a "who really betrayed who" type outlook.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

nestersan said:


> The Emp is a total failure for not seeing this.


I could not agree with you more. The Emperor played favorites whether he intended to or not.
Examples:
Perturabo: Go split your legion and work on the long sieges.
Dorn: Come and be my pretorians at Terra.

Angron: I don't have time for your rebellion and buddies, your commen with me. Screw them.
Space Wolves: I can stay for all these contests and a fight just prove I'm your dad.

Vulkan: I will stay and waste time doing your "kill a lizard contest" instead of doing the crusade.
Mortarion: im just going to ruin your whole parade and kill the tyrant that you've spent so long trying to kill.

I could go on. 



nestersan said:


> Guilliman is a ....... I really wish Alpha Legion infiltrates Mccragge and takes the body of that git.


Oh yes, haha, but its harder than you'd think. The Daemon Prince M'kar of the Word Bearers and Honsou of the Iron Warriors tried to destroy a weapon and The Savior of Calth's grave. I would imagine Guilliman's body is a lot more secure. I wonder if Mkar will be in this book, but I'm thinken Graham McNeil kind of just made him up. So 



nestersan said:


> As for Emp, that corpse god, sowed the seeds of his own demise. If he had spent less time scheming and more time realising he didn't have automations but SONS, he would have been finished the Crusade.


I personally don't understand how he kissed some of his Son's asses and then totally screwed over the other half. So yes, the seeds of his demise.


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I personally don't understand how he kissed some of his Son's asses and then totally screwed over the other half. So yes, the seeds of his demise.


I think as much as I displike him as a person, that he is just that a person. He had favourites cause he was human at his core.

I know lots of parents who are blind to the favourite kids totally screwing them over, and they try and try and forgive and forgive.

Only diff is that Emp was no where as lenient with the other sons when they messed up.

I really think Horus was the only "Son" in his eyes.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

"famous Space Marine Forge Father He'Stan"?

Are you chatting shit? This is simply Nick Kyme out to make himself money by writing a story about the most broken of the Space Marines Special Characters, hoping that its his in game notoriety that will grant him the sales.


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## nestersan (Apr 3, 2010)

Vaz said:


> "famous Space Marine Forge Father He'Stan"?
> 
> Are you chatting shit? This is simply Nick Kyme out to make himself money by writing a story about the most broken of the Space Marines Special Characters, hoping that its his in game notoriety that will grant him the sales.


Didn't read the Salamanders extract, and don't know much about them, what is so broken about him ?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

In a game when Armour and Cover saves are rife, Space Marines get to reroll to hit with Melta weapons and reroll to wound with Flamers.


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## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

Vaz said:


> "famous Space Marine Forge Father He'Stan"?
> 
> Are you chatting shit? This is simply Nick Kyme out to make himself money by writing a story about the most broken of the Space Marines Special Characters, hoping that its his in game notoriety that will grant him the sales.


What? I completly disagree with this. He is writing for the Salamanders, and guess what? He'Stan is a Salamander! It would be idiotic if He'Stan didn't make an appearance in the series, that is like having the Horus Heresy without Horus, on a lesser scale of course. Are you that ignorant that you can't see it? Seriously, I'm not going to argue, but saying that is....Stupid.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Dark Angel's right. I think we need to see more of the iconic characters like Vulkan He'stan in the novels, find out more about them beyond an entry of their deeds in the Codex pages. Im still waiting for Khârn the Betrayer to make another appearance. Blood for the Blood God!, Skulls for the Skull Throne!.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

dark angel said:


> What? I completly disagree with this. He is writing for the Salamanders, and guess what? He'Stan is a Salamander! It would be idiotic if He'Stan didn't make an appearance in the series, that is like having the Horus Heresy without Horus, on a lesser scale of course. Are you that ignorant that you can't see it? Seriously, I'm not going to argue, but saying that is....Stupid.


Really? What about Chaplain Xavier? That's a real Salamander, not some half arsed knob jockey someone thought "would be cool if".

On the alternate angle instead of being ignorant, (which is EXACTLY what you are by blindly believing that writing a book about some shite awful character on a half arsed parody of the Grail story is purely because he wants to), it's being intelligent enough to know that he's using an in game notorious character to generate sales.

Do we have stories on and about (i.e not stories just having them present);

Calgar
Sicarius
Cassius
Tigurius
Pedro
lysander
Shryke
KorSarro
Xavier
Cortez
Chronus
Tellion?

No. Do we fuck. Is it convenient that suddenly the most popular and powerful choice in the space marine game is suddenly getting a book dedicated to him, when he's not even been present until some wet dreaming 30 something year old walked into work one day during 5th edition SM brainstorming session? Too fucking right it is. Especially when he's also done Assault on Black Reach (convenient it was released alongside the game? Or did he do that particular battle prior to even finding out the GW made it the basis of 5th edition?)

Iconic Character?

What about the real Vulkan? Or other's, even Ultra's who have actually made a difference?

Christ. Not to mention that Oathbreaker, and Honourkeeper were... horrendous. You're not going to convince that this book was written about HeStan just because.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Well for starters Xavier is dead and has been dead for millennia in the 40k timeline. So I doubt he'll be making an appearance short of the Horus Heresy series.

And who the hell at any point said Vulkan He'stan was the main character of _Firedrake_, he's just making a cameo or at best a supporting character in the novel. If he were the main character that'd be interesting but he isn't.

And actually yes we do have a story on Sicarius. By next April we'll have two of them. _Assault on Black Reach_ and _Fall of Damnos_. And the real Vulkan?, ha no way. He is MIA, has been for 10,000 years and wont be coming back any time soon. Horus Heresy we'll see him but not in current 40k. And this isn't Ultramarines, its Salamanders and they deserve a book much more then the Ultramarines because the Ultramarines are the poster boys of GW, the Salamanders are an under-appreciated chapter that deserve their time in the spotlight.


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## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

Like I said, I am not going to argue, I will however point out that nearly every character you named has infact featured somewhat in novels.



> Calgar - The Chapter's Due
> Sicarius - The Chapter's Due, Assault on Black Reach, Fall of Damnos and various other Ultramarine novels
> Cassius - Not actually sure, but without a doubt he is in The Chapter's Due and maybe one of the other Ultramarine novels
> Tigurius - Same as Cassius, I ain't sure, but he will be in Fall of Damnos.
> ...


You do realise he was probably selected to do the Assault on Black Reach novella? Personally I think you are just bashing Kyme, perhaps you don't like him for some reason, because that is certainly what it looks like. This book _isn't_ about He'Stan either, so you might as well get that out of your mind. He is featuring in it, the mains will be those who were in Salamander with Elysius playing a larger part..


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

dark angel said:


> This book _isn't_ about He'Stan either, so you might as well get that out of your mind. He is featuring in it, the mains will be those who were in Salamander with *Elysius playing a larger part..*


The very reason im going to Games Day UK, just to get _Firedrake_ at pre-release. And _The First Heretic_ if its there.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Featured, or had a book based around them? There's a damn sight difference.

Warriors of Ultramar doesn't FEATURE Marneus Calgar, or bring him into the series, although he's present. The selling point of WoU isn't the MC is present.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

There's a reason that these famous characters cannot be a protagonist. They cannot die. They are important in the lore of 40k and unlike the novel characters they are part of the tabletop game and thus there is a lot less freedom to work with them rather then novel created characters.

The closest there will ever be to a Marneus Calgar novel is if they decide to write about the Tyrannic Wars.


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## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

Even so, at least half of them are still condradictory to what you said. All of them have had roles bar Xavier, whether or not it is a large or small part. And I never said that Warriors of Ultramar features Calgar, the only novel I remember him from in that series is Nightbringer. Warriors of Ultramar isn't set on or near Macragge to my knowledge, it is on Tarsis Ultra.


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## joechip (Mar 4, 2010)

Old Man said:


> I liked the extract from The First Heretic, even though Lorgar did seem a bit like a prat, throwing a tantrum in front of his whole legion.
> With the Imperiums secular outlook he should have know what was coming...


I agree. Lorgar seems like an out of control nut. Come on, spraying his spittle on Guilliman and Malcador as he screams? My respect for him dropped like a rock at that point. Also, if Lorgar is so obsessed with impressing daddy then slapping his dad's best friend, who was just standing there talking calmly, doesn't make much sense.



Lord of the Night said:


> Im amazed he was able to stay cool for as long as he did. I would have greeted Guilliman by hitting him, and throttled Malcador within an inch of his life.


While I don't really understand the hate directed at Guilliman it's so common that I won't even ask, but why the hate for Malcador? I've had allot of respect for Malcador over the years. He temporarily replaced the Emperor on the Golden Throne even though no psyker short of the Primarch Magnus or the immortal Emperor was meant to do it. But Malcador, a mere man, kept it running long enough for the Emperor to slay Horus, even though the effort killed him. Just before Malcador turned to dust he pasted his last ounce power to the Emperor, reviving him long enough to give his final orders to his servants.

Manly tears.

If anything this extract increased my respect for Malcador. Moments after getting slapped through the air by a damn Primarch he calmly gets back up and calls down the THE EMPORER to put a stop to Lorgar's temper tantrum. It's the ultimate comeback.

As for wasting Lorgar "perfect city", it's extreme but Malcador and Guilliman were following the Emperors orders. Just like Lorgar claimed he was but wasn't. It's hypocritical to praise Lorgar but condemn them.



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Should he? He's crusaded for a century, killing billions, raising the second-largest Legion in the Imperium - literally _a hundred years of bloodshed_ - creating worlds that consider the Emperor as a god, without once being told to stop before now. And from his view now, after a century of loyalty and effort, he's being utterly humiliated in the most stark, offensive, unfair way - while his entire system of belief is being dismantled and he's told his entire life has been a lie.
> 
> Perspective is everything.


Are you implying that Lorgar was somehow unaware of the Imperial Truth? Because from everything I've read the Imperial Truth is pretty clear on their being no gods and the REMOVAL of religion not spreading it. The bottom line is that if Lorgar new the Imperial Truth he should have known that forcing people to worship the Emperor was going to backfire.

I haven't been able to get my hands on First Heretic yet but based on this extract Lorgar comes across like an unsympathetic, literally foaming at the mouth loony! I really hope this isn't another one of those novels where the author desperately wants you to like a character but writes that character as a completely unlikable ass.



Lord of the Night said:


> If all the worlds that Lorgar converted were destroyed then its not surprise he turned to Chaos. They appreciate hard work in their name, not despise it. And if your doing it wrong they tell you right away, rather then let you keep going.


:shok: My jaw almost dropped open at reading this. What the hell are you talking about?! Other than Nurgle the Chaos gods couldn't care less about their followers and sacrifice them at the slightest whim. Even Nurgle shows his "love" by giving people flesh eating diseases. 



Vaz said:


> Really? What about Chaplain Xavier? That's a real Salamander, not some half arsed knob jockey someone thought "would be cool if".
> 
> On the alternate angle instead of being ignorant, (which is EXACTLY what you are by blindly believing that writing a book about some shite awful character on a half arsed parody of the Grail story is purely because he wants to), it's being intelligent enough to know that he's using an in game notorious character to generate sales.
> 
> ...


Pedro and Cortez were the main characters in Rynn's World.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

joechip said:


> I agree. Lorgar seems like an out of control nut. Come on, spraying his spittle on Guilliman and Malcador as he screams? My respect for him dropped like a rock at that point. Also, if Lorgar is so obsessed with impressing daddy then slapping his dad's best friend, who was just standing there talking calmly, doesn't make much sense.


Trust me, after you've read _The First Heretic_ - you will see that Lorgar has just cause to act as he does.



joechip said:


> I haven't been able to get my hands on First Heretic yet but based on this extract Lorgar comes across like an unsympathetic, literally foaming at the mouth loony! I really hope this isn't another one of those novels where the author desperately wants you to like a character but writes that character as a completely unlikable ass.


Take into account your talking to the author here (_Dead.Blue.Clown_ is ADB), and again - trust me, it's a fantastic novel which ranks very highly in the series overall. 



joechip said:


> Are you implying that Lorgar was somehow unaware of the Imperial Truth? Because from everything I've read the Imperial Truth is pretty clear on their being no gods and the REMOVAL of religion not spreading it. The bottom line is that if Lorgar new the Imperial Truth he should have known that forcing people to worship the Emperor was going to backfire.


No, he wasn't implying that at all. But the point is that the Emperor allowed himself to be celebrated as a god during the welcome festivals on Colchis, and allowed Lorgar to preach him as a god to his Legion and to the worlds he conquered throughout an entire century of the Great Crusade. Only to then suddenly reprimand Lorgar for it a century after Lorgar joined the Great Crusade in the ashes of Monarchia. Doesn't add up. But then again nor does much that the Emperor does.


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## joechip (Mar 4, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Take into account your talking to the author here (_Dead.Blue.Clown_ is ADB), and again - trust me, it's a fantastic novel which ranks very highly in the series overall.


I knew Dead.Blue.Clown was ADB and that's why I was a little confused by his post. The extract makes Lorgar very unsympathetic in my opinion yet ADB's post makes it sound like we're supposed to sympathize with Lorgar. That's why I made the comment about characters the author expects you to like but they're written as complete pricks. I hope that's NOT what's happening here and I know I can't judge a book by a tiny extract but based on what I read and ADB's post I'm skeptical about The First Heretic.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No, he wasn't implying that at all. But the point is that the Emperor allowed himself to be celebrated as a god during the welcome festivals on Colchis, and allowed Lorgar to preach him as a god to his Legion and to the worlds he conquered throughout an entire century of the Great Crusade. Only to then suddenly reprimand Lorgar for it a century after Lorgar joined the Great Crusade in the ashes of Monarchia. Doesn't add up. But then again nor does much that the Emperor does.


You should really let the man speak for himself but I'll bite. If Lorgar knew what the Imperial Truth was then he must have known that he was going against it by spreading religion. If he knew that then he should have known that running counter to the Imperial Truth was going to bite him in the ass at some point, even if the Emperor didn't say something right away. I'm not saying he could have predicted such a extreme reaction from the big E but he should have known something bad was bound to happen. On a different note you're right about the Emperor's actions not adding up but having multiple authors will often do that to a character.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

I can't wait to see more of Tal and co. in a sequel of sorts. Maybe in a book abotu the Battle at Calth?


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

I think a book on Calth is a for sure, not to sure if it will be a SM battles book or a HH thogh.


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> But the point is that the Emperor allowed himself to be celebrated as a god during the welcome festivals on Colchis, and allowed Lorgar to preach him as a god to his Legion and to the worlds he conquered throughout an entire century of the Great Crusade. Only to then suddenly reprimand Lorgar for it a century after Lorgar joined the Great Crusade in the ashes of Monarchia. Doesn't add up. But then again nor does much that the Emperor does.


This is my biggest concern regarding the series. The Emperor is not coming across very well at all and I think this needs to be addressed. I really hope the answer is that he is doing what he thinks is best but is not infallible and makes mistakes or is tricked by Chaos which results in the Heresy. It would be good to know his reasoning behind some decisions. 

What I would absolutely HATE to see is some kind of suggestion that he knew the Heresy was coming or even planned it. That would make him no better or even worse than the Chaos gods. There are enough bad guys in the setting.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

joechip said:


> If Lorgar knew what the Imperial Truth was then he must have known that he was going against it by spreading religion. If he knew that then he should have known that running counter to the Imperial Truth was going to bite him in the ass at some point, even if the Emperor didn't say something right away. I'm not saying he could have predicted such a extreme reaction from the big E but he should have known something bad was bound to happen. On a different note you're right about the Emperor's actions not adding up but having multiple authors will often do that to a character.


Most probably he did. But let's take into account that Lorgar was a philosopher, not a warrior. He was brought up into a zealously religious society, he was assured that faith was central to human culture. He recieved visions of the Emperor during his time on Colchis, as a golden god who would lead humanity to their ultimate paradise in union with the empyrean. He tore his own homeworld asunder in response to these visions, he repressed the Old Faith in favour of the Emperor. 

When the Emperor finally arrived on Colchis he allowed himself to be celebrated as a god (despite the Imperial Truth), and even more extreme was that he allowed Lorgar to preach such doctrine around the galaxy. Such doctrine that in itself justified why the Emperor preached the Imperial Truth, yet at the same time was still a god ('Only the truly divine deny their divinity' Et cetera).

To have his entire life, achievements and Legion shattered in one unforseen instant is what justifies his behaviour throughout that particular extract. He was told that he, and he alone was a failure. He had failed himself, his brothers, his Legion and the Imperium. He was told to be the warrior he had never been, but the one he was always intended to be. It really isn't suprising that he acts as he does, and the reader really does get to sympathise with Lorgar.



Gree said:


> Maybe in a book abotu the Battle at Calth?


Yeah, we'll being seeing more of the Crimson Lord of the Gal Vorbak. ADB has confirmed that he leads the attack on Calth alongside Kor Phaeron.



joechip said:


> On a different note you're right about the Emperor's actions not adding up but having multiple authors will often do that to a character.





mal310 said:


> This is my biggest concern regarding the series. The Emperor is not coming across very well at all and I think this needs to be addressed.


I think the portrayal we have of the Emperor so far in the Heresy series is intentional. It really gives us another perspective to the usual 40k propoganda we get.


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## joechip (Mar 4, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Most probably he did. But let's take into account that Lorgar was a philosopher, not a warrior. He was brought up into a zealously religious society, he was assured that faith was central to human culture. He recieved visions of the Emperor during his time on Colchis, as a golden god who would lead humanity to their ultimate paradise in union with the empyrean. He tore his own homeworld asunder in response to these visions, he repressed the Old Faith in favour of the Emperor.
> 
> When the Emperor finally arrived on Colchis he allowed himself to be celebrated as a god (despite the Imperial Truth), and even more extreme was that he allowed Lorgar to preach such doctrine around the galaxy. Such doctrine that in itself justified why the Emperor preached the Imperial Truth, yet at the same time was still a god ('Only the truly divine deny their divinity' Et cetera).
> 
> To have his entire life, achievements and Legion shattered in one unforseen instant is what justifies his behaviour throughout that particular extract. He was told that he, and he alone was a failure. He had failed himself, his brothers, his Legion and the Imperium. He was told to be the warrior he had never been, but the one he was always intended to be. It really isn't suprising that he acts as he does, and the reader really does get to sympathise with Lorgar.


Ok, Lorgar's actions make a little more sense when you put it that way. It still bothers me that he would say or think something like "Only the truly divine deny their divinity". To me, that sounds like somebody desperately trying to fool themselves. It doesn't really fit with Lorgar being "a scholar and an intellect" like you yourself described him.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

mal310 said:


> This is my biggest concern regarding the series. The Emperor is not coming across very well at all and I think this needs to be addressed. I really hope the answer is that he is doing what he thinks is best but is not infallible and makes mistakes or is tricked by Chaos which results in the Heresy. It would be good to know his reasoning behind some decisions.



I completely agree with that. It's top of my list for the next HH meeting. The Emperor looking bad in the novels we've had so far isn't my main worry (after all, Alpharius had no ties to him, Lorgar was raised "wrong" and deluded himself, Horus is the Great Betrayer and was the suddenly ignored former favoured son - so their biased anti-Emperor perspectives make a lot of sense to me), but in the future when we deal with the novels closer to Terra and factions on the Imperial side, I really think the Emperor needs to come off in a different manner. His rebuttal of Horus (for example) should be viewed in a different light by those near him, who see the man working so hard for the species that he can focus on little else around him. His abandonment of the Great Crusade isn't to leave Horus under pressure or ignore the Astartes, but to usher in the new future of the human race through the Imperial Webway, and so on. These are all implicit in the setting, but it should come across more from the viewpoints of characters in the position to see it, and thus reinforce it all in the readers' minds.



mal310 said:


> What I would absolutely HATE to see is some kind of suggestion that he knew the Heresy was coming or even planned it. That would make him no better or even worse than the Chaos gods. There are enough bad guys in the setting.


I agree with that, too.




joechip said:


> Ok, Lorgar's actions make a little more sense when you put it that way. It still bothers me that he would say or think something like "Only the truly divine deny their divinity". To me, that sounds like somebody desperately trying to fool themselves. It doesn't really fit with Lorgar being "a scholar and an intellect" like you yourself described him.


Yeah, I hear you. I don't really like that line, either. I think it's a bit blunt and simple, especially compared to the rest of the faith debates involved. But I had to include something linking Lorgar to the Lorgar we've seen in the rest of the series and the Tales of Heresy short story, and that throwaway line was a solid enough nod to what came before. 

I still changed a lot of it, though. The fact the Emperor was a god (or a being powerful enough to be considered one) was no longer the point. I wanted to get away from that debate as soon as possible, because there's not a lot of interesting weight in it (at least in terms of relevance to any narrative) beyond the core concept.


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## joechip (Mar 4, 2010)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I completely agree with that. It's top of my list for the next HH meeting. The Emperor looking bad in the novels we've had so far isn't my main worry (after all, Alpharius had no ties to him, Lorgar was raised "wrong" and deluded himself, Horus is the Great Betrayer and was the suddenly ignored former favoured son - so their biased anti-Emperor perspectives make a lot of sense to me), but in the future when we deal with the novels closer to Terra and factions on the Imperial side, I really think the Emperor needs to come off in a different manner. His rebuttal of Horus (for example) should be viewed in a different light by those near him, who see the man working so hard for the species that he can focus on little else around him. His abandonment of the Great Crusade isn't to leave Horus under pressure or ignore the Astartes, but to usher in the new future of the human race through the Imperial Webway, and so on. These are all implicit in the setting, but it should come across more from the viewpoints of characters in the position to see it, and thus reinforce it all in the readers' minds.


This sounds very interesting.


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## Cambrius (Nov 4, 2010)

I have been steadily chewing my way through the Heresy series and I have to say, it's been greatly entertaining. I didn't read the excerpt as I am currently at chapter twenty-three of The First Heretic, but I believe that Lorgar does merit some understanding, if not sympathy, in that particular scene. An understanding may be due mainly to having read much more of the book.

As it's been said, Lorgar was permitted to spread his Word about the Emperor's divinity unchecked for quite some time. After a century, one could reasonably assume that the Emperor's silence was close enough to consent. During the scene, Lorgar has arrived to find one of his most successful compliances rendered dust and rubble, glass and scorched sand, without so much as a word of warning or explanation. Just a stone-faced Guilliman following orders. We already know Lorgar is cursed or blessed with the compassionate aspect of the Emperor and cannot be as sanguine as some of his brothers. It would be easy for anyone in Lorgar's position to see Guilliman's stoic refusal to respond as smug and superior. _I smashed your favourite toy, cuz daddy said I could. You've been bad._

On a related note, I quite like ADB's other novels, and I thoroughly enjoyed the ties, however tenuous, to one of them in particular. I'd like to comment further, but I don't wish to spoil anything for those who have yet to read for themselves.

As to the Emperor, I get the very distinct impression that he knows exactly what he's doing in spreading the Imperial Truth with his crusade. He made contact and apparently struck some kind of deal with powerful entities in the warp to facilitate the creation of the primarchs. He reneged on that deal, probably once he came to more fully understand the nature of those entities, and so the warp gods are pissed. Maybe rightfully so. Given that the nature of the warp is a direct manifestation of all mortal mental, emotional, and psychic emanations, and knowing that the entities of the warp seem to gain access to the galaxy through ritual and sacrifice as a byproduct of devotion and worship, it makes sense to me that the Emperor would want to put an end to religion. However benevolent the scriptures and benign the intentions, they always seem to end up paving the road to hell and the warp. Yes, the Emperor knows there are "gods", Lorgar. He wants to stop humanity's faith in them because he's all to aware of humanity's inherent and seemingly unavoidable penchant for self-destruction and corruption.

I also think it's incredibly ironic that the Emperor demands the Imperium not worship him or anyone else, and that those who do are heretics. Somehow, over ten millenia, this is flipped on its head. Lorgar - damned to Chaos - survives through his Lectitio Divinitatus, which becomes the foundation for the Imperial cult. The first disciple is also the first heretic. Kinda cool, I think.


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