# What exactly makes it impossible for the SW to create successors?



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Obviously if the Codex Astartes were not in effect, the SW would be able to increase their numbers to well above 1,000 and designate the surplus number of marines as a separate chapter. 

Is it because the canis helix is only compatible with Fenrisian recruits (and even when implanted into Fenrisian recruits, the success rate is still lower than the success rates of other primarchs' geneseeds)? 

Was the whole point of the Wolf Priest's project in Battle of the Fang to modify Russ's geneseed so that the bodies of non-Fenrisian recruits would accept it? Therefore, SW successor chapters could raise recruits on their homeworlds instead of competing for Fenrisian recruits with the SW.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

I think BL has done a terrible job explaining the whole SW natives/non-natives bit. 

We can't even speculate because the fluff is rife with inconsistencies on the subject.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

This got me thinking...so only the Fenrisians are (supposedly) the only ones the geneseed works in. The Space Wolves can't create multiple Chapters out of a single home world, so the Founding of additional Chapters is impossible, right?...

Why not export the Fenrisians to other systems? Found new colonies. Create new Chapters from there (assuming the High Lords would give the okay...which lately is looking sorta iffy).

Bam, more Space Wolf successors, right? Sure, it might not fly with the High Lords, but it's worth a shot, right? They have all those Chapter Serfs that are willing to go through hell and high water for the Chapter. I'm sure they'd be up for living to some new cozy deathworld where 50% of the children don't live past 5. Just like home, right?


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## Wookiepelt (Jan 29, 2013)

My take on this, having read both _Battle of the Fang_ & _Prospero Burns_, is the it's all to do with the issue of the Wulfen curse. I believe that in the _Battle of the Fang_, the Wolf Priest's experiments was attempting to eliminate the effect of the Wulfen which was the causing the large number of losses during the final trial. Even after having passed this final hurdle to become a SW, there is always the potential that the Wulfen curse would surface during the heat of battle.

But according to Russ himself in _Prospero Burns_, his comment that there were no wolves on Fenris until the SW arrived kinda hinted that the whole SW cavalry division would not exist if not for the Wulfen curse (unless my interpretation of this is way off).

Hmm... what would this do if other worlds were subjected to the same process to harvest more candidates for the SW Chapter?!? Food for thought here...


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I would say you are way off. I mean the Wulfen are just werewolf-like creatures that happens to extreme cases of top heavy guys. I mean the thing about the Space Wolf riding Space Wolf likely comes from Prospero Burns where there were a dialogue between an young and an older Space Wolves. It ended with the older one telling the younger one that the wolf who had saved him was once a brother. I sort of think he is cracking a joke or Dan Abnett has misunderstood fluff. I hold the former to be more true.

As for the Canix Helix, well the mutation is unique for Fenris. Take it everywhere else and it would be diluted. That thanks to the Thousand Sons who of course holds a grudge against the Space Wolves.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Or Dan Abnett knew _precisely_ what he was saying, which goes hand-in-hand with what Graham McNeil was alluding to in 'A Thousand Sons'.

Magnus tells you flat-out that there are no wolves on Fenris. He explains that, to survive on Fenris, the earliest human colonists experimented on themselves on a genetic level. 'Deliverance' later tells us that Leman Russ was modified with canine coding before even being whisked away to Fenris. Surprise-surprise, the Space Marines who carry the gene-seed Leman Russ display develop canine features. For those whose gene-seed fails, they actually become lycanthropes. Dan's comment re: a wolf that used to be a brother is simply the nail on a coffin crafted by what I thought to be some rather blatant innuendo! :wink:


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## Durant (Aug 24, 2011)

> For those whose gene-seed fails, they actually become lycanthropes. Dan's comment re: a wolf that used to be a brother is simply the nail on a coffin crafted by what I thought to be some rather blatant innuendo!


That is how I followed the hints between the two books also (TS and PB)


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Then Dan Abnett is wrong as I flatly refuse to believe that brother can ride brother into battle. It has no basis in fluff except quotes by unreliable narrators, and it's stated no-where in the Codex Space Wolves (there the Thunderwolves are a separate species). Plus it also goes up again biology, so people that supports that is going for wishful thinking and fanfiction, same as people who think the Dark Angels originally turned from the light of the Emperor.


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## joebauerek (May 14, 2010)

I dont think it is impossible for them to create successor chapters..... they tried once... failed miserably and never tried again.... I think if they tried again they could find a way around problems. Just by the lack of trying i think the problem is intensified (i know the accident with the Wolf Brothers was a biggie) but other chapters have had problems with successors just look at the 21st founding.

As for the no wolves on Fenris thing... wasnt russ raised by wolves? Who by description could easily be thunderwolves.... Personally I think the no wolves on Fenris quote is more a description of the true monster.... the space wovles themselves


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Agreed 100 % joe. That's my take as well.

And I explained that one, the TS sabotaged it so the SW can't be feasible outside Fenris.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Then Dan Abnett is wrong as I flatly refuse to believe that brother can ride brother into battle.


Meaning no offense, but that doesn't really inform an opinion. You're by all means entitled to say you don't _like_ what those authors did, but the above sentence doesn't exactly serve as a counterpoint to what the authors implied.



> It has no basis in fluff except quotes by unreliable narrators, ...


Unreliable? :shok:

One of your two narrators is Magnus - who can see to the genetic core of creatures. The other is a Rune Priest of the VI Legion. Both of them give the same account over two books. How and why in the blue hell would Longfang assume Brom had turned into a wolf without any basis?



> _"'There are no wolves on Fenris.'
> Hawser looked up. Longfang was standing beside him, staring at the wolf.
> 'That’s evidently not true at all,' Hawser replied in a tiny voice.
> Longfang grinned down at him.
> 'Try to keep up, skjald. There were no wolves on Fenris until we got here.'"_


That's exactly the sentiment Magnus expresses. So what, is Magnus repeating stories told by the Vlka Fenryka? Or are Rune Priests of the Sixth Legion prone to repeating stories told by Magnus? Neither. In 'A Thousand Sons', Magnus abilities allowed him to see a truth that the Vlka Fenryka had known (as evidenced by Longfang) but didn't openly advertise (for obvious reasons).



> _"Longfang looked back at the wolf.
> 'Twice he’s helped protect you,' he said.
> 'What?' asked Hawser.
> 'He had a different name last time you were in his company,' said Longfang. 'Then, he was called Brom.'"_


What possible reason would Longfang have to fabricate this? And if he was somehow mistaken, how on earth would he have arrived at this conclusion? And if this WAS all a case of unreliable characters making a colossal mistake, then what's the point of TWO authors continuing it without even so much as HINTING that the characters are wrong?

Never mind that, again, the two "unreliable" characters involve a psychic Primarch with the ability to read DNA and a Rune Priest of the actual Legion dealing with the problems of the Canis Helix...



> ... and it's stated no-where in the Codex Space Wolves (there the Thunderwolves are a separate species).


Well, you might as well also claim that the Legions don't number 100,000 or more warriors... or that there was no Omegon... or that the events leading up to the Unremembered Empire never happened... or that the Thramas Crusade never occurred... or that the Space Wolves never called themselves the Vlka Fenryka... do I need to go on? I mean, none of those things are ever shown in the Codices, right?

The fact of the matter is that the material shown in the Codices at this point probably only constitute a fraction of what we've seen in the novels. More importantly, it's the _Codices and the Index Astartes articles_ that were always told from the perspective of incomplete (and sometimes deliberately altered) archives maintained ten thousand years after the actual events.



> Plus it also goes up again biology, ...


You mean like superhuman soldiers who take up canine features on account of the genetic material that they are infused with courtesy of a science project demigod? :wink: 



> ... so people that supports that is going for wishful thinking and fanfiction, same as people who think the Dark Angels originally turned from the light of the Emperor.


It's not fan-fiction or wishful thinking _when the author is spelling it out for you._ :biggrin:



joebauerek said:


> As for the no wolves on Fenris thing... wasnt russ raised by wolves? Who by description could easily be thunderwolves.... Personally I think the no wolves on Fenris quote is more a description of the true monster.... the space wovles themselves


You're conflating the mythology of Fenris as repeated ten thousand years after Leman Russ disappeared with what actually happened, as shown in the Horus Heresy novels. Fenrisians in 40k believe Leman Russ was raised by wolves. The Space Wolves _that actually lived in that era_ state unequivocally that what people believe to be wolves _are not wolves_... and Longfang goes so far as to give you a *specific example* of that.

I get that everyone is entitled to their opinions... but we're talking about willfully ignoring the author to such a degree that you might as well ignore any part of the novel you'd like. Maybe it was really Horus that they fought at the end of the novel. I mean, just because they claim it was a daemon in disguise, that doesn't mean anything. After all, they're unreliable narrators, right? :wink:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

One day, the Emperor was watching some naughty video's sent to him by his mate Slaanesh on his laptop. Settling in for a good night, he shouted out to his ho's in the Sisters of Silence to get some beers, tissues and to turn down the lights. Cracking on the computer he settled it on his lap, when suddenly (!) he forgot what he was doing, and placed the internet reciever thingy on his balls after he pulled down his thong. The super high powered ultra fast broadband quickly began to cook his jewels, and unfortunately, this killed his fresh geneseeds reproductive capabilities.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I have told lies about the football-teams of my rivals getting it on in the locker-room. That applies to Magnus as well, he is king unreliable source as he is the arch-enemy. 

Leman Russ was reared by a wolf, and a wolf as a canine creature nothing else.

As for biology. I have personally seen men covered in hair like some sort of gorilla, that's not a far stretch. Humans suddenly becoming wolves are simply a ridiculous stretch.

As for the longfang he can be reffing to the fact that they are Space Wolves, or just pulling the leg of the younger guy. I'm actually a bit baffled over the fact that people believes that Wulfen can change species as that's not how it is in the codex, and actually seems to be a bit of a rather I don't know sort of retarded standpoint.

Super-human soldiers picking up traits of something is kosher. The Wulfen is the logical extreme. They don't turn into something else as that's a too ridiculous argument for me to even consider listening to, and seethes of hatred towards the Space Wolves.

Authors can be mistaken like everybody else, just ask ADB.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Dammit, Vaz. I so wanted to rep you for that one!



Beaviz81 said:


> I have told lies about the football-teams of my rivals getting it on in the locker-room. That applies to Magnus as well, he is king unreliable source as he is the arch-enemy.


And he just happens to tell the same lie as members of the Sixth Legion? That's convenient. I mean, what is Longfang thinking? Is he just an idiot that's repeating fake rumors invented by a Primarch they don't trust?



> Leman Russ was raised by a wolf, and a wolf as a canine creature nothing else.


Nah. That's what a legend described in a Codex says. To the Fenrisians, who live 10,000 years after the time of Russ and whose legends are dominated by super-warriors with wolfish features, a myth of a Wolf King who landed on their planet and was raised by wolves probably makes sense. Our own mythology developed along similar lines.



> As for biology. I have personally seen men covered in hair like some sort of gorilla, that's not a far stretch. Humans suddenly becoming wolves are simply a ridiculous stretch.


"Humans becoming super-powered post-human warriors with centuries-long lifespans" is a ridiculous stretch as well, wouldn't you say?

And besides, the Space Wolves aren't just "hairy people". They are individuals to whom the Canis Helix _specifically imparts canine traits._

Incidentally, I honestly feel like I'm being trolled right now! :biggrin:



> As for the longfang he can be reffing to the fact that they are Space Wolves, or just pulling the leg of the younger guy.


Oh, come on. Longfang summons a punchline that's *two decades old* to play a joke on Hauser? And the author doesn't so much as *hint* at it? And it just so happens that this "joke" continues a theme carried across two novels? Dear God, man, you're reaching now! :biggrin:



> I'm actually a bit baffled over the fact that people believes that Wulfen can change species as that's not how it is in the codex, and actually seems to be a bit of a rather I don't know sort of retarded standpoint.


Well, that's quite the ad-hominem! If you want to roll that way, though, what would you call someone's standpoint if they ignore blatantly obvious narrative delivered by the author in favor of conjecture? Or, say, when one is baffled by the idea that a human could mutate into a wolf... _but is completely kosher with the idea that he could mutate into a werewolf._

Would you have choice words for that?...



> Super-human soldiers picking up traits of something is kosher. The Wulfen is the logical extreme.


Says who? How does the logic end there? No, don't worry - I get it. It's called opinion. I think kebabs are amazing, for instance, but you might think they're awful. Except it's not that kind of opinion-based contest. The author has spoken remarkably clearly; you simply don't like what he had to say.

And that's fine - you're completely entitled to your opinion that it's ludicrous for humans who become Space Marines with canine features and a propensity to turn into werewolves to later *also* turn _into giant wolves._ No one says you have to like it!

You can't, however, act like other people are retarded because they opted to go with what's been revealed by the new background material _rather than making up something_ to feel more comfortable. :wink:



> They don't turn into something else as that's a too ridiculous argument for me to even consider listening to, and seethes of hatred towards the Space Wolves.


Oh, the melodrama... I assure you, I'm not opting to take into account the fairly obvious information revealed by an author because I secretly hate a fictional group of super-powered soldiers. 



> Authors can be mistaken like everybody else, just ask ADB.


In order to take that angle, though, you have to show how the author is incorrect.

In this case, your sole argument is "It's ridiculous that they mutate into something other than lycanthropes," followed by "A Codex didn't mention what Abnett said." Both of those points are flawed, though. One rests on your unwillingness to entertain super powers that you feel are illogical given "biological" reasons (even though your own "logical" endstate exceeds what biology allows for). The other ignores that this *entire series* has been adding information not found in the Codices.

So again, I have to ask... Do you also claim that the Legions are still only made up of 10,000 Space Marines? Do you feel that Abnett hallucinated Omegon? Are battles mentioned in novels but not in Codices or old articles inapplicable figments of the authors' imaginations? Of course not.

Cheers,
P.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

hailene said:


> The Space Wolves can't create multiple Chapters out of a single home world, so the Founding of additional Chapters is impossible, right?...


Not sure if there's a rule against more than one chapter on a homeworld. Surely you could have two fortress monasteries on the one stable landmass or maybe even a land-based fortress monastery for one chapter and an orbiting monastery for the other? 

As long as the command structures are kept reasonably separate...



> Why not export the Fenrisians to other systems? Found new colonies. Create new Chapters from there (assuming the High Lords would give the okay...which lately is looking sorta iffy).


You'd have to make sure the Fenrisian colonists don't interbreed with non-Fenrisians. It makes sense that Fenris is kept so utterly isolated...interbreeding might dilute (and hence ruin) the Fenrisian genepool. It just seems like a lot of effort and trouble even if Fenrisians are sent to develop multiple isolated purestrain colonies. This might take several stages as Fenris has a pretty small population, and the SW better hope their enemies don't find out about this plan. 

...I mean, the first loop-hole seems a lot more plausible (for instance, 3 chapters based on Fenris with separate command structures)...the Fang (Space Wolves), an orbiting fortress (the Wolf Brothers 2.0) and a fleet-based chapter that recruits cyclically (the...Wolf Cousins). Maybe even start cloning Fenrisians for implantation? 

If there is a rule against multiple chapters based on one planet, I think the SW, out of all the Astartes lineages, deserve an exception.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Changing species is not something I consider possible in any realm of fantasy, least of all the realm of 40k., but people seem to be totally fine with that, despite it's the only example in the fiction. I mean people doesn't change into something else. Try finding one occurrence where anyone else have turned into animals without suffering a polymorph. Had it been a common occurrence I would have agreed with you, but this is unprecedented. 

I mean you are going up against rules with regards to any fantasy-realm. I mean in Baldur's Gate and such games I encountered Werewolves, they were still just top heavy guys, just as the Wulfen. They didn't magically change species, and sure the Space Wolves have Canis Wolfborn who should have by any means been just a feral kid never learning any table-manners or anything like that. He can speak wolf. That's the border of what I accept and he is extreme in the game.

I draw a line between wolf an werewolf, citing biology. You have yet to do anything but to flail about it in my opinion. It's okay you don't like the Space Wolves I accept that, but don't expect me to swallow your arguments about the Space Wolves becoming wolves. Plus wolf and human are million of years inbetween, human and Ogryn and Ratling is a stretch but it's a logical stretch I accept as 30.000 years can see that happen in a bit of a stretch. That's mainly why I totally dismiss it, plus Wulfen are mutants, not people turning into wolves they only turn wolf-like with bodies like Burrito Bison. Biology just doesn't work that way.

I assume everyone to think Space Wolves to turn into wolves to be haters. You have yet to convince me otherwise, other than trying to ridicule my point which for me points to you really hating them.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

I would just like to point out... you go on this whole thing about people not being able to turn into wolves. And you could be right (and in a fantasy/scifi setting like 40k that is by no means certain, given some of the other crazy shit we have to swallow). Problem with your argument... it is cited various times that Fenrisian wolves *aren't* actual wolves. They might look like wolves, but they aren't. Why do you think various people keep saying "there are *no* wolves on Fenris".

Also, calling everyone who chooses to believe the Heresy series fluff over your opinion Space Wolf haters is remarkably immature.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

It appears the whole issue is:

1) SW geneseed only works with Fenrisian recruits 
2) It would be a pain in the arse to set up Fenrisian colonies on other homeworlds and maintain the genetic purity of these colonies
3) It seems that there can't be more than one chapter based on a single planet

I'm thinking some alternatives would be 1) shipping recruits from Fenris to successor homeworlds or 2) cloning excellent Fenrisian recruits

It seems that most SM chapters prefer to pick the very best physical and mental specimens from a sizable population. Therefore if the SW went the colony route, these wouldn't be small colonies. They'd have to establish pretty large colonies of at least a few million, otherwise they'd be limiting their successors to small selection pools. 

I mean...I think having maybe 3 or 4 chapters based on Fenris would be the easiest way to go beyond the codex limit.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I go for the Codex Space Wolves for fluff, had it been established there that the humans turned into wolves I would have bought the stupid arguments. Instead people comes to me quoting arch-enemy and such, plus they go up against anything I have seen in fantasy. I have never seen someone in any fantasy realm change species. I even throw in logic there, as the Wulfen are mutated humans nothing else, and yeah I'm as stubborn as any fan of the Space Wolves ought to be with a berserk button clicked. 

And my logic is still to be dispelled, I mean you are going up against biology (a few million years even) and fluff with your attitude. That's not good. I go for the Codex Space Wolves, what do you go for? Loose gossip and rumors. That's like the 23 original chapters of the Ultramarines a rumor.

As for my so-called immature opinion. Disprove it. Whining about it, doesn't make you seem so fucking mature, hell it make you seem sore about I'm pointing out that you seem to dislike the Space Wolves. I have actually yet to see anyone claiming to like the Space Wolves profess such a viewpoint.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> I go for the Codex Space Wolves for fluff, had it been established there that the humans turned into wolves I would have bought the stupid arguments. Instead people comes to me quoting arch-enemy and such, plus they go up against anything I have seen in fantasy. I have never seen someone in any fantasy realm change species. I even throw in logic there, as the Wulfen are mutated humans nothing else, and yeah I'm as stubborn as any fan of the Space Wolves ought to be with a berserk button clicked.


You totally ignore my point, nice. Fenrisian wolves *are not* real wolves. Also... do you hear yourself? Just because you personally have not seen it happen in a fantasy setting means it can't happen? Yeah, I'm just gonna ignore that... and link this instead... Animorphism - Television Tropes & Idioms

So even if they _are_ humans turning into a different species, it is hardly unprecedented.

Also, to try and use real life logic to argue in 40k is about as sensible as trying to use a piece of spongecake to hammer a nail. There are numerous things in 40k, not just in terms of biology, that defy modern day logic.



Beaviz81 said:


> And my logic is still to be dispelled, I mean you are going up against biology (a few million years even) and fluff with your attitude. That's not good. I go for the Codex Space Wolves, what do you go for? Loose gossip and rumors. That's like the 23 original chapters of the Ultramarines a rumor.


And the Codex is the definitive source of everything? You ignore what an actual Heresy-era Space Wolf character says, calling it rumors and loose gossip. You ignore fluff that comes from the actual era from a character living through those times. The Heresy series is the most up-to-date source of info we have on the Space Wolf background. Hell, one could argue that one of the main points of _Propsero Burns_ is that it gives us a deeper insight into the Space Wolves. Tell me, do you still believe that Harek Ironhelm took out Magnus on his own? They don't mention all the other people involved in the fight in the Codex, it only becomes clearer in _Battle of the Fang_.



Beaviz81 said:


> As for my so-called immature opinion. Disprove it. Whining about it, doesn't make you seem so fucking mature, hell it make you seem sore about I'm pointing out that you seem to dislike the Space Wolves. I have actually yet to see anyone claiming to like the Space Wolves profess such a viewpoint.


I was not whining. I was just pointing out that throwing personal attacks at people simply because they don't agree with you is not the most mature way to go about things, and is not going to help your argument in the slightest. I don't dislike the Space Wolves. I admit I don't care much for Leman Russ himself. But I can say the same about the Thousand Sons. I don't dislike them, but I think Magnus is a colossal tool. None of those facts have jack shit to do with my argument. Though, you _do_ seem to like going on about Magnus the "arch-enemy" etc. even though this was pre-Heresy and the issues between the Wolves and Sons were far from mortal enemy territory. Hell, I could say, using your own argument against you, you simply don't want to acknowledge what Magnus says because you are a Magnus hater.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Changing species is not something I consider possible in any realm of fantasy, least of all the realm of 40k., ...


Here's the thing...

If you, Beaviz81, were to say, "Changing species is silly. I don't think it works well for the Space Wolves," I'd offer you a golf clap. I might say, "such is life," without a shred of sarcasm because _that's your opinion,_ and you're *one hundred percent entitled to it*.

When you say, "Dan Abnett is wrong in saying via one of his characters that Brom turned into a Fenrisian wolf," however, and your reasoning for this is "it's not possible due to biology," then you've exited the realm of opinion. You've entered a very interesting part of the literary world, wherein you opt to ignore what the author has presented before you and are exercising your right to interpret the material in a way different than what he had intended.

(I'm not being sarcastic. This is not a unique thing, and it's been a topic of debate for some decades now... but generally speaking those talking points have not been about an intellectual property that - besides novels - aims to construct a more-or-less stable fictional universe that is to be shared by a number of different authors.)



> ... but people seem to be totally fine with that, despite it's the only example in the fiction. I mean people doesn't change into something else. Try finding one occurrence where anyone else have turned into animals without suffering a polymorph. Had it been a common occurrence I would have agreed with you, but this is unprecedented.


Even if this was somehow unique (and it's not, as Chompy Bits showed), what does it matter? Going by your criteria, any "first" should have been rejected out of hand.

'Superman'? Since when do human beings come from other planets and possess super powers granted by our sun? 'From the Earth to the Moon'? What was Verne thinking? How is one to get to the moon by being shot into space by a giant cannon? The 'Star Wars' prequels? Can an order of space-knights really be empowered by psychic bacteria that grant them powers like telekinesis and telepathy?

The idea that a genetically altered superhuman could mutate into a wolf-that's-not-a-wolf on account of his super-organs coming from an even greater superhuman with built-in canine material hardly even scratches the surface of all the impossible things 40k entails.

At any rate, you're rejecting this premise because it strikes you as new and/or unprecedented, but that in no way means that _it's not happening in this material._ Quite simply, the author has been about as blatant as he can be (given the context of the story and the themes of the series in general) in telling you what's up... _but you don't like it._ Again, that's fine... but it doesn't mean it's not happening.



> I draw a line between wolf an werewolf, citing biology.


No offense, but how is that relevant? You claim that you're citing scientific principles, but what you're really doing is just stating your opinion. That opinion is that some things that are impossible in the real world can happen in science fiction, but some can't. Science in the case of Brom the once-Space Marine matters about as much as it does when determining the Navigator's third eye, or the metaphysical nature of the Warp. None of it is real, and none of it is ruled by real science. That you reject some of it doesn't preclude the author from writing about it.



> It's okay you don't like the Space Wolves I accept that, ...


Oh, wow. It's kind of off-putting when you assume people are being dishonest with you about what they like and don't like.



> Plus wolf and human are million of years inbetween, human and Ogryn and Ratling is a stretch but it's a logical stretch I accept as 30.000 years can see that happen in a bit of a stretch. That's mainly why I totally dismiss it, plus Wulfen are mutants, not people turning into wolves they only turn wolf-like with bodies like Burrito Bison. Biology just doesn't work that way.


Again, you're trying to inject real biology in a science fiction setting. Biology doesn't allow for a super-psychic person to live for 38,000 years. Biology doesn't explain how said immortal ruler is able to combine technology and (possibly) magic from a parallel universe to create twenty super-beings. Biology doesn't explain how he could use those beings to gather self-replicating genetic material that can be turned into eighteen organs capable of making a human being into a superhuman warrior.

None of that is possible by biology as we know it, but you _choose_ to accept it as plausible. Hence why it's disingenuous to argue that Abnett and McNeil's concept with the Fenrisian wolves is impossible _on the basis of biology._ Both concepts are impossible to begin with.

Similarly, we're not talking about _wolves_ at all. A recurring theme in these stories, in fact, is that these _aren't_ wolves at all. The only reason why this conversation is about _wolves_ is because you _choose_ to pretend that McNeil and Abnett are perpetuating a hoax vis-a-vis two characters from two opposing factions. Your argue that one of those two characters (Magnus) is lying, and that the other - who has no reason to trust or believe Magnus - chooses to make a _joke_ about the very same thing.

All this, absent any supporting evidence...



> I assume everyone to think Space Wolves to turn into wolves to be haters.


That's quite a paranoid position. In this case, you're assuming someone who simply takes Abnett at his word - absent any evidence to the contrary - hates Space Wolves?


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

You are hitting my point home with the animorph. That's polymorphing which I earlier have taken into account. Plus I say Wulfen is another form of werewolves nothing else. That has been my point from the get-go. Plus you are deliberately ignoring my point, biology and evolution. And the real life logic point is pretty weak. Humans are there still, so are horses and such, gravity haven't changed. The only thing that has changed is the warp which in average seems to just mutate. And again mutations might turn you wolf-like like the mutagen of Teenage Hero Mutant Turtles. Splinter got turned into a rat-man, not a rat and that's basically how I think the warp can work as well as there are plenty of in-game examples to that.

Magnus is the arch-enemy there is no two-ways about it. I mean you don't become friendly with the guy that want to kill you and advises daddy to do so. As for my supposed hatred of him. Not there, but I admit my love of the Space Wolves colors my viewpoint. If anything I pity Magnus as he now serves as target-practice for the second-most powerful mythological weapon and Ragnar.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> You are hitting my point home with the animorph. That's polymorphing which I earlier have taken into account. Plus I say Wulfen is another form of werewolves nothing else. That has been my point from the get-go. Plus you are deliberately ignoring my point, biology and evolution. And the real life logic point is pretty weak. Humans are there still, so are horses and such, gravity haven't changed. The only thing that has changed is the warp which in average seems to just mutate. And again mutations might turn you wolf-like like the mutagen of Teenage Hero Mutant Turtles. Splinter got turned into a rat-man, not a rat and that's basically how I think the warp can work as well as there are plenty of in-game examples to that.


Well, Phoebus has handled the using real life logic bit pretty well in his last post. Things like space marine organs, navigator genes etc. are all way beyond modern understanding of biology. And the other problem is you continuing to cling to the idea that the Fenrisian wolves are real wolves. 

Just assume they are NOT real wolves. In a setting where all the things Phoebus mentioned previously are not just possible but well established, don't you think it's possible that the warriors carrying the genetic legacy of a warp-energy fueled (40k magic), modified-with-canine-genetics, demigod can devolve into something that simply greatly _resembles_ extremely large wolves.




Beaviz81 said:


> Magnus is the arch-enemy there is no two-ways about it. I mean you don't become friendly with the guy that want to kill you and advises daddy to do so.


Yeah, except that is rubbish. Russ wanted Magnus's use of psychic power censured, that's it. And this all happened long *after* said conversation where Magnus comments on the Fenrisian "wolves". Hell, he didn't even want to kill Magnus when he was sent to Prospero. We see that he was still trying to reason with him and get him to surrender peacefully (sadly he was getting trolled by chaos so it was a pointless effort).


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Ehm Phoebus seems to confuse biological technology with biology. I mean there is a difference in growing a new spleen in a vat, and morphing into a wolf after far too few generations. The Space Marines are sort of plausible as stem-cells can be used to grow things already. And it's the far future, I assume everything to be explained by dark use of stem-cells just like IRL. Just here they must wait for the babies to be formed due to mutations that can occur on the way we are after all talking about a hellish place where only some exposure of the warp can get twisted in the most unfortunate way.

Horus convinced Russ to take it by force, yeah we know that history. I'm just pointing to that Russ and Magnus didn't go well along as Russ had the ear of Empy despite being a mutant himself. But then again I regard the Space Wolves as hypocrites when it comes to the warp as they uses it themselves, but their Rune Priests has a purer access to it which means the hypocrite is right in the setting.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

MontytheMighty said:


> 1) SW geneseed only works with Fenrisian recruits


Explain how the Legion was founded on Terra then. Terran recruits also suffered from the curse of the Wulfen, and have done since the founding. It didn't just appear when they got to Fenris, so we can't say the geneseed works exclusively on Fenrisians, or they are affected exclusively by the curse.



Chompy Bits said:


> Fenrisian wolves are not real wolves.


Nope, they are a genetic conglomeration of various different species who's DNA has been used to create a species tough enough to survive on Fenris. In fact thunder wolves are described as being genetically closer to rhinos than Terran wolves. This is all stated as fact in the codex. What is not stated anywhere is that SWs who have fallen to the curse become full blown wolves. Besides, how would a SM that has been implanted with unstable genetic material with canine traits turn into a creature more closely related to a rhino than a wolf?

I think people are taking some of the stuff insinuated in the books too literally. When Longfang says there were no wolves on Fenris until the legion got there, he is technically right, but the SWs themselves are the figurative wolves he is referring to, the new ultimate predator on a world of predators, as opposed to a genetic flaw leading to a new mongrel breed of human/wolf creature that didn't exist before their arrival.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I won't touch on the plausibility of humans transforming into wolf-like beings beyond stating that Phoebus completely and thoroughly covered it. It's a sci-fi universe with rules that may not be consistent with how we believe the universe works.




MontytheMighty said:


> 3) It seems that there can't be more than one chapter based on a single planet


I think beyond the fact that it would be too easy to start building mini-legions is that there aren't all that many Space Marine Chapters to go around. Think about it--we see about, maybe, 150 planets in a sector. Some sectors significantly less (just a handful of planets). That's still ~6667 sectors if the average inhabited planet count is 150. That means, on average, each Chapter has to cover 6.67 sectors. Then you run into situations like the Cadian Gate and the Maelstrom--situations where you have a crap ton of Chapters within a relatively small area. This spreads the remaining Chapters even further.

You simply can't afford to concentrate that many Space Marines on a single system, I think. Or rather, not on Fenris.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Ehm Phoebus seems to confuse biological technology with biology.


There's no confusion, I assure you. Rather, as I've stated quite a few times already, I disagree with the idea that our understanding of biology plays a role in interpreting a science fiction story featuring technology that transcends our limitations.

In fewer words, your argument is that it's impossible to do something using tools and technology that are impossible for us to define. The problem, though, is that you can't logically support such an argument since we don't know the limitations of the means by which we would arrive at the result.

And it's not as if the Fenrisian wolves would be the only creatures to suffer such bizarre mutation:



> _"... something bloated and white and huge lay on the floor. Its legs looked more like flippers, its arms like tentacles. But the face appeared human and it had three eyes, one in the middle of the forehead that looked suspiciously like that of a Navigator.
> ...
> 'These things were Navigators?' said Ragnar, appalled.
> 'They are Navigators, very old ones, very wise ones.'
> ...


Did the Emperor intend for this sort of mutation? Probably not, just as he probably didn't intend for the Blood Angels to develop the Red Thirst. It could very well be that the entire Curse of the Wulfen - and the subsequent transformation that eventually afflicts those that succumb to it - is a result of Leman Russ being sent through the Warp.

Perhaps, for instance, the Space Wolves did not have to worry about mutations until they reunited with Leman Russ. Then, much like every other Legion, the Primarch's genetic material was used directly - except his innate canine genes (see 'Deliverance') had been affected by the Warp and/or Fenris itself. This, in turn, led to the Space Wolves developing the Curse of the Wulfen.

Don't get me wrong. Everything I just proposed in that last paragraph is nothing but conjecture on my part. I would argue that what I proposed is actually believable _within the structure of the stories_ that have been told both in the Codex and the novels... It's better than simply saying "it didn't happen, because I choose to ignore _some_ of the many impossible things shown in this setting."



Khorne's Fist said:


> Explain how the Legion was founded on Terra then. Terran recruits also suffered from the curse of the Wulfen, and have done since the founding. It didn't just appear when they got to Fenris, so we can't say the geneseed works exclusively on Fenrisians, or they are affected exclusively by the curse.


This is just conjecture on my part...

Leman Russ was the second Primarch found. I don't know how long it took for the Wolf Brothers to mutate after being apart from Fenris. Is there any chance that the time it took for the VI Legion to reach Fenris was shorter than the time it took for the Wolf Brothers to manifest their gene-seed mutation?



> Nope, they are a genetic conglomeration of various different species who's DNA has been used to create a species tough enough to survive on Fenris. In fact thunder wolves are described as being genetically closer to rhinos than Terran wolves. This is all stated as fact in the codex. What is not stated anywhere is that SWs who have fallen to the curse become full blown wolves.


See the quoted part from 'Prospero Burns' in my post on page 2. It's part of the ongoing discussion I have going on with Beaviz81.



> Besides, how would a SM that has been implanted with unstable genetic material with canine traits turn into a creature more closely related to a rhino than a wolf?


If you're asking me whether Graham McNeil and Dan Abnett (both of whose relevant novels were published in 2010) contradict background information shown in Codex: Space Wolves (published in 2009), then you're probably right. 

I can't say for certain whether Phil Kelly intended for Fenrisian wolves to be anything other than really big, really dangerous wolves. I also can't speak for the reasoning Dan and Graham used. All I know is that the former strongly implied that there was something unnatural going on where the "not-wolves" of Fenris were concerned, and that the latter has a Space Wolf blatantly state that at least one of his battle-brothers turned into a Fenrisian wolf over a period of two decades.

Cheers,
P.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

hailene said:


> I think beyond the fact that it would be too easy to start building mini-legions ...


That's a function of indoctrination, though - not due to population limitations.

I do agree with you, though. Even if it is possible, it doesn't necessarily make sense for multiple Chapters to come from the same world.

Probably the only way that could work is if you had some sort of "Crusade System": a mini Ultramar complete with its own Forge World, whose purpose is to churn out a brand new Chapter and its fleet ever so often. Said Chapter would of course be a Crusading one.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

The warp did it, nuff said. 

The space marines and the primarchs have an absolutely heavy dose of warp energy at their core. And funny things results when things go awry. I always though the fenrisian wolves were fully mutated wulfen released into the wild. The majority of them having gone completely feral and serving as a perfect training opponent to hunt.

Few of them might have dim recollections of the space wolves and proving to be trainable as mounts.


Edit: Infact this reminds me of 'The Fly' movie I saw many years ago. A scientist developing a working teleportation machine. But one day a fly enters the transmit chamber and becomes mixed up with him. At the start he begins to develop amazing abilities, but soon he devolves. Eventually turning into a hideous giant fly-like monstrosity.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

That is down to interpretation Phoebus. Me and people agreeing with me thinks the Longfang said it to rile up the younger Space Wolf, and notes it goes up against the fluff of the Codex Space Wolves. You on the other hand seems to think it's the truth, and throws the Codex Space Wolves out the window. For me the rating-system is the Codexes first, the BL-fluff, then Forge Wolrd and such, then I guess what authors says, then maybe fanfiction but that I often blatantly disregard.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

My only question then is what leads you to think Longfang is telling a joke to Hauser. Does the author offer a hint of it being a joke? Is it written that way? Does it even make sense that the author would use the same joke as something that Magnus said in an earlier book?

Or is this a case of pretending that Longfang is telling a joke because that's the only way his statement doesn't contradict the Codex (which is the source you prefer)?

Because, honestly, "it goes against the fluff" doesn't mean it's not happening. As I pointed out several times already: there are tons of instances where the old fluff has been disregarded for something different. Am I to assume that when you read 'Know No Fear' and saw that the Ultramarines had 250,000 Space Marines that you immediately disregarded that and pretended they had 25,000 (or something like that)? Because, no offense intended, that would start getting bizarre...

I'm genuinely curious.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

For me it seems to have been meant as a joke. A vet scaring a newbie. That's not uncommon and I have been on the receiving end of such a joke myself when I was a young and naive boy at workplaces.

And yeah my argument boils down to that he is joking or lying because if else a major re-write of fluff ought to happen if not. I go for the simpler solution which I find almost always to be the better solution. It's the writing-equivalent of I hear hooves I think of horses not zebras.

Some fluff can be countered. I mean the Ultramarines ain't alone in have a space empire anymore. The 23 chapters seems to be boiled up to 230 (most popular fan-theory) and such due to the Grey Knights being chapter 666 despite only around 400 chapters were around and kicking after the HH. But remember a codex is written from POV, and I think the Space Wolves would tell us if brother were riding brother. And I prefer to dismiss it as a loose rumor until it's blatantly stated in a codex.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Fluff evolves, it never stays static. Dont commit the same mistake as the Ultramarines and stoically worship the 10.000 years old Codex Astartes, seeing any deviation as the utmost heresy.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Actually, Brother Lucian covered my points completely. Anything else would perpetuate a circular argument that's largely predicated on your tastes, Beaviz81. Carry on!


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

I think the problem is that not even the authors are exactly sure what it means. When I asked Abnett at the BL Dublin event about wolves on Fenris, he said that he actually came up with that line, but due to his health issues at that time McNeill took it and ran with it. Abnett then tied back to it later. 

This might not have happened as both books were supposed to be written at the same time, but then Abnett ended up having the benefit of reading ATS before he finished PB and working it into the story as well. I don't think we'll ever see it sorted out in print either, as it's not really a big deal, just a curious easter egg.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

On a slightly more humourous note: here is evidence of the predecessor to the wolves of fenris: http://humortrain.com/post/54425228555#.UdGJrS8iRUk.facebook


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> You are hitting my point home with the animorph. That's polymorphing which I earlier have taken into account.


So, you want to see an example of people turning into animals that doesn't involve polymorphing, despite the fact that polymorphing refers to people turning into other things and thus automatically covers any instance of people turning into animals. Do you see the flaw in that logic?



> I say Wulfen is another form of werewolves nothing else.


1) You realize that werewolves aren't real right?
2) If you're okay with werewolves in 40k then you should know that early werewolf stories have the man turn into a wolf. An actual, honest-to-goodness, literal wolf. Only relatively recently (I think it goes back to the earliest Wolfman movie and not much further) has the 'werewolf' become a man-wolf-thing (a "top-heavy guy" to use your term). So from that perspective turning into a giant wolf is no less plausible as a werewolf mutation than turning into a wolf-man is.



> Magnus is the arch-enemy there is no two-ways about it. I mean you don't become friendly with the guy that want to kill you and advises daddy to do so.


Except Magnus says this *before* that happened. At the point at which Magnus examines the wolves there is no enmity between him and Russ and therefore no reason for him to make up slander. Never mind the fact that Magnus doesn't seem like the type to make shit up, what with his dedication to knowledge. He literally looks into the 'wolf' genes and sees something that isn't a wolf.



Beaviz81 said:


> I draw a line between wolf an werewolf, citing biology.


I think this may be my favourite troll line of all time. :laugh:

I didn't realize that biology was perfectly okay with people turning into big, hairy *mythological* wolf-man hybrid creatures. 

Of course biology would have a problem with people turning into wolves, that would be ridiculous. What ever will they come up with next: blood drinking imparting memories; 'genetic memory' of trauma so vivid you relive the past; digestive-guided-evolution... No, such folly would be out of place in 40k. :wink:


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Maybe you should actually try to read my posts before trying to flame MEQ.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Beaviz81 said:


> For me it seems to have been meant as a joke. A vet scaring a newbie. That's not uncommon and I have been on the receiving end of such a joke myself when I was a young and naive boy at workplaces.
> 
> And yeah my argument boils down to that he is joking or lying because if else a major re-write of fluff ought to happen if not. I go for the simpler solution which I find almost always to be the better solution. It's the writing-equivalent of I hear hooves I think of horses not zebras.
> 
> Some fluff can be countered. I mean the Ultramarines ain't alone in have a space empire anymore. The 23 chapters seems to be boiled up to 230 (most popular fan-theory) and such due to the Grey Knights being chapter 666 despite only around 400 chapters were around and kicking after the HH. But remember a codex is written from POV, and I think the Space Wolves would tell us if brother were riding brother. And I prefer to dismiss it as a loose rumor until it's blatantly stated in a codex.


Didn't bother reading any of your other posts. After you attempted to bring real life biology into 40K my brain said not worth reading.

If you read the SW codex, you'd notice the section the tests of norkai where they become a SW or a feral monsters. 

Secondly we should look at page 34 of the codex space wolf. That thunderwolf seems to have quite a few human facial features. 

Finally the grey knights are chapter 666 because they are daemon hunters.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Bah that's a loser's argument Reaper, boo-fucking-hoo for you. Get a fucking grip.

The initiates becomes either Wulfen or Space Wolves, there are no two ways about it (unless they die on the way of course).

The 34 quote is the stupidest piece of argument I have heard in any of the rather retarded argument about brother riding brother Reaper, and that's a telling story as I have heard much insanity there.

The Grey Knights was just a conjecture-case and a wrapup of fluff nothing more.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Just to throw my two cents on the whole 'russ was raised by wolves' thing.

He could still have been raised by wolves...they just weren't wolves when they found him. Maybe they were perfectly normal (albieit gene-fucked like the rest of them) fenrisians...they raise up the future primarch, then the Emperor shows up and elevates all russ's homeboys to Marine status...and maybe a decade or so later the Curse starts showing up.

Now russ's mommy and daddy are doggies.
So russ was raised by wolves. 
People see him with te wolves, he introduces them as his parents...who's gonna question the guy. Drunken roqwdy space vikings get in on a good joke and spin wild tales. The original truth gets forgotten.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

And I fail to see how people changing into wolves is all that improbable in 40k. People turn into horrible shit all the time. The only thing improbable is that they dont; have tentacles or scything talons.

We know kroot changed from birds into humanoids by sampling and changing their DNA all the time, why can't it go the other way around?

We know the geneseed process often has huge genetic repercussions, sometimes even interacting with latent psychic ability. 
Super-magical messiah scientist emperor makes genetically tweaked super-children because he;s bored. He splices an extra dose of puppydog tails in with the regular snips and snails. Don;t forget the guy;s an omnipotent psyker...which in 40k is the same as being a wizard. He throws some magic in to make the whole quasi-science thing work.

Russ's magical wolfy geneseed has a bad reaction with the already heavily tweaked fenrisian DNA and turns the magical wolf genes into overdrive. The primarches are all pretty damned warp-touched between their magical daddy and their unshielded trips through the warp. Magic + screwy wolf DNA = Polymorph. 

Wulfen are just stage 1. You get a space marine with jacked up fur and fangs and claws...then after a while if he doesn't die in battle he gets bigger...and stronger...and harrier. his fingers and feet grow into elongated dog legs, his face distorts and thanks to magic and fucked up wold DNA, he's a thunderwolf. He gets it on with another thunderwolf and a thousand generations later you got fenrisian wolves running around never knowing that their great great grampa used to be a dude.

Is it at all what was originally written or implied way back in the beginning of the game? no, but fluff changes all the time.
Tigris isn't half-eldar anymore, is he? Shit changes.

Ten years from now it;ll all be different again and people will be arguing that it's impossible for it to be the other way around.
It's only a game of plastic spacemen.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Beaviz81 said:


> Bah that's a loser's argument Reaper, boo-fucking-hoo for you. Get a fucking grip.
> 
> The initiates becomes either Wulfen or Space Wolves, there are no two ways about it (unless they die on the way of course).
> 
> ...


So what are the wulfen?


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

You are suggesting that not only does the Wulfen eventually change species but change gender as well Galahad? Ehm that's certainly bring a new and rather squicky meaning to brother riding brother in a meaning I only in my most humorous moments have touched. Though logic tells me that if they were to actually change species, then a gender-change for some wouldn't be that far off thought it would be interesting to see Grimgeir mounting Geirrød right before the important battle.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

<shrugs> Who knows man, you're dealing with freaky warpy space magic.
Besides, chromosome damage resulting in transgenderism seems a lot more plausible than "Turn into a werewolf"

Maybe it's not just people with geneseed, maybe generations of being with 'normal' fenrisians puts the wolf taint into the general populace. Daddy was a space marine, mommy had a genetic predisposition to wolfism, gives birth to puppies.

Who knows, these are vikings we're talking about here.
The same culture that had a male god polymorph into a female horse to prank some giants by leading away one of their giant workhorses...and then bore their freaky mutant octohorse to term and gave it to his dad as a mount. Technically, odin rode his grandson into battle


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Man, this thread got derailed...



Beaviz81 said:


> Plus you are deliberately ignoring my point, biology and evolution. And the real life logic point is pretty weak. Humans are there still, so are horses and such, gravity haven't changed. The only thing that has changed is the warp which in average seems to just mutate.


A lot of 40K doesn't conform to science. 40K isn't a hard sci-fi setting, it's a very soft sci-fi setting...more accurately described as space fantasy. 

I'm pretty sure the Tyranids defy numerous principles of real-life biology.

How about Necron technology? Have you heard of the Celestial Orrery? *40K is not hard sci-fi which tries to adhere to the laws of physics as closely as possible, only tweaking a few things here and there.* *40K is full blown space fantasy with its own version of magic (i.e. the Warp and a lot of silly unexplainable tech).* 

The Warp is magic. Eldar and Necron tech is magic. Tyranid biology is magic. Heck...Primarch, Astartes , Custodes, Imperial Assassin biology is magic. Try to explain their abilities and attributes with hard science. You can't...at least not with our current understanding

A lot of implausible Imperial and Dark Age tech is never explained and pretty much just works because the setting needs them to work. Again, you have to keep in mind that 40K is essentially a fantasy setting in space, maybe even less scientific than Star Wars. 

I don't really agree that a SW marine is "changing species" when he chances into a Wulfen, but even if he were, I fail to see how that's absurd by 40K standards.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

But I thought Space Marine-jizz not to be good for you. I mean they spit acid and their blood is poisonous. I don't dare thinking what their the jizz are like. But then again Lukas landed a dozen broads in a single night. Then I usually crack a joke about calling the police.

As for the reason, it was quite good for Loki to turn into a horse. It was to prevent Freya from marrying a guy building a wall around the gods walling them in, they were under the impression they were walling everyone else out, he was also promised the sun and the stars. The workhorse (Gullfaks) did most of the work, so Loki distracted it and got pregged giving birth to Sleipnir (the eight-legged horse. As a bonus-point Odin was eventually devoured by another grandson (Fenris) during Ragnarrok.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Maybe you should actually try to read my posts before trying to flame MEQ.


Flame? Really? Not a single ad hominem attack, calm tone, polite(ish) language and reasoned out explanations. If you want to see an attempt at flame you should read over your own posts (like I did)


Beaviz81 said:


> Bah that's a loser's argument Reaper, boo-fucking-hoo for you. Get a fucking grip.


That right there, that's an attempt at flame. Don't actually address his argument (or mine) just get up in his face, call him a loser and tell him to get a grip.



> The initiates becomes either Wulfen or Space Wolves, there are no two ways about it (unless they die on the way of course).


There's nothing to suggest the hairy beast-man is the final stage of the wulfen mutation but there is fluff that states that Space Wolves can turn into 'wolves'. That suggests that the imitates that become wulfen can eventually change further into wolves.



> The 34 quote is the stupidest piece of argument I have heard in any of the rather retarded argument about brother riding brother Reaper,


Why? What's so stupid about it? Show us why we should change our minds, Beaviz, yelling insults at people isn't going to do that.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Beaviz81 said:


> You are suggesting that not only does the Wulfen eventually change species but change gender as well Galahad? Ehm that's certainly bring a new and rather squicky meaning to brother riding brother in a meaning I only in my most humorous moments have touched. Though logic tells me that if they were to actually change species, then a gender-change for some wouldn't be that far off thought it would be interesting to see Grimgeir mounting Geirrød right before the important battle.


Clown fish can become female if the colonies females are none existance. 

So yes swapping gender is possible.

Right now we are only limited to what is ethical to do. Soviet scientists tried to make super soldiers by combining ape DNA with human.

Why is it a stretch for the emperor to create his executioner with wolf DNA to become fierce and loyal.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Beaviz81 said:


> But I thought Space Marine-jizz not to be good for you. I mean they spit acid and their blood is poisonous. I don't dare thinking what their the jizz are like. But then again Lukas landed a dozen broads in a single night. Then I usually crack a joke about calling the police.


Don't Sallies take wives? Hard to recall.
Obviously space wolf spunk gives you werewolfism, so it must not be totally safe. 
Plus of course, saliva is used to aid in digestion for normal people, and there are blood-borne/vectored pathogens that aren't sexually transmitted too, so there's cases where blood can get you sick but not other fluids.
And of course, those things were intentionally done to weaponize space marines...there's no reason to mess around with their junk so unless it;s specifically stated as being altered it's best to assume it's normal.



> As for the reason, it was quite good for Loki to turn into a horse. It was to prevent Freya from marrying a guy building a wall around the gods walling them in, they were under the impression they were walling everyone else out, he was also promised the sun and the stars. The workhorse (Gullfaks) did most of the work, so Loki distracted it and got pregged giving birth to Sleipnir (the eight-legged horse. As a bonus-point Odin was eventually devoured by another grandson (Fenris) during Ragnarrok.


I'm aware of the backstory...but there's a world if difference between 'seducing and leading away' the horse (after which point, he could just turn back into a god and take the damned thing's reigns and tied it up somewhere) and doubling down by letting the horse rail you for a while...and then deciding to stay as a female horse long enough to give birth to a mutant horsebaby.

Loki could have cut and run at any moint in there, but he really wanted to give Odin the weirdest fathers day present ever.

So, yeah. Vikings + magic + sex = OMGWTF?!
I have zero trouble believing that a bunch of gene-altered magical space vikings ended up having dogbabies. That makes absolute sense to me.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Well-reasoned points, gentlemen, but they miss the thrust of Beaviz81's argument.

Beaviz81 read that part of 'Prospero Burns' and thought to himself: _"That's ridiculous. I don't like it. It disputes the Codex, which is what I like."_

My guess is that the next step he took with that train of thought was: _"What line of reasoning can I use to justifiably ignore it?"_

At this point, insert the arguments he's presented thus far:
1. Lycanthropy in fiction is possible despite being biologically impossible in real life, but becoming a whole new species is *too* impossible.
2. A statement delivered without humor becomes a joke.
3. There's no real connection between what is expressed by Longfang and a Primarch who can see DNA much like Keanu Reeves can see code in 'The Matrix'.

Bottom line, I don't think you can convince Beaviz81 to change his mind because I doubt this has anything to do with what that novel said... or any of the ways that it could logically be reconciled with the Codex. I think it's a matter of taste, pure and simple. You may as well be trying to convince him to accept chocolate despite the fact that he hates it.


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## Wookiepelt (Jan 29, 2013)

Reaper45 said:


> Clown fish can become female if the colonies females are none existance.
> 
> So yes swapping gender is possible.


Didn't they use that in the first Jurassic Park movie to explain how the male-only dinos (Raptors?) bred outside of controlled lab conditions on the island?


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Problem is, that's not how *he's* presenting it. it's not him saying "I don't like this because..." end everyone else trying to convince him to like something he doesn't...it's him saying "the current fluff is factually incorrect and anyone who supports it hates space wolves"

which is literally what he said. anyone who goes with the 'sw turn into wolves' theory is just a hater.

if it's one person expressing his dislike, then fine. A man has a right to his opinion.

but when you try stating your opinion is fact and that the other side is not just wrong but actively hates the chapter...that's not something you just wave off.

he may never be convinced, but there's a certain obligation to the truth which requires people who know better to counter when someone says something that is untrue or tries to claim something else is untrue when it isn't


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I get where you're coming from.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

With that said it might be good to let this rest, or we are just talking in circles.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I shall be honest before this year I thought only flamers went for the theory that the Wulfen turned into wolves, and some of that lingers as I still have to see reason behind stuff except a few lines in a book contradicting in my mind the fluff in the codex. That's my taste and as Phoebus points out it's difficult to change my taste as it's unprecedented in any fantasy-realm (except one and there it only were a temporarily thingy). Plus it's how you perceive hearing hooves, I went for the simpler example, and yeah I admit until a Space Wolves codex comes out telling me that some Fenrisian wolves were once humans I will be clutched to the notion that humans turning into wolves won't happen. It's a matter of hearing hooves and what you think. I think horses, you for all manner of reasons seem to think wolves. My rating of fluff will always be codex > BL-fluff > fluff from other sources like forge World > authors in interviews > fanfiction.

And we already have wolf-like humans. Haven't you heard about the Mexican wolf-boy? Will he turn into a wolf? You already know the answer to that. I think the same way with the Wulfen. They would only turn into werewolves which we already sort of have in our midst, minus the urge to feast on human bodies and superstrength.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> And we already have wolf-like humans. Haven't you heard about the Mexican wolf-boy? Will he turn into a wolf? You already know the answer to that. I think the same way with the Wulfen. They would only turn into werewolves which we already sort of have in our midst, minus the urge to feast on human bodies and superstrength.


Are you seriously using someone who has Hypertrichosis in an argument about a fictitious universe set tens of thousands of years in the future?

Leman Russ's genetics *are known to incorporate canine DNA*. Hypertrichosis has absolutely nothing to do with having canine genetics. One guy who had the same condition was called the Lion-faced man, and one female with it the Monkey Girl. So I cannot see how him and his condition is even remotely relevant to this discussion. Trying to compare him with a Wulfen is quite frankly ludicrous. Some people also call him the Monkey Man. Others probably call him the Wolfman because calling him "Cousin Itt-Man" would get them a major lawsuit.

But anyway, back to the OP question. I honestly think the Space Wolf successor thing has been poorly handled so far. I mean the Wolf Brothers were originally members of the Space Wolf legion and were never under any threat of the whole lot of them falling to the Wulfen curse. But go and settle on another planet and suddenly their genetics go ape shit? And we can't even blame some spooky, mystical connection to Fenris. Because then any Wolves away from the planet on long campaigns, or for example the Wolf Blades who serve on Terra, should have all devolved at some point. The 13th Great Company have been away from Fenris for who knows how long, yet they are still a functional combat unit. Sure, it _is_ noted that there are significant amounts of Wulfen among them, but running around in the Eye for potentially thousands of years is likely to screw with someone's genes.

Now some could argue that the geneseed only works on Fenrisians, but then it would mean that the Emperor had to have intentionally let Russ land there. Which given how Magnus for example landed on a planet full of psykers could be worth considering. But then why did Angron, Curze, Mortarion etc. land on such shitholes? Unless the Emp tried to direct where his sons would land but could only manage to do it with some of them. But then that would mean that the Emp would have been involved in influencing Fenrisian genetics, and he'd only do so if he knew he would need a reason to do so. Which means he would have had to have known about the scattering thousands and thousands of years before even creating the primarchs. Which is really pushing it. But anyway, that's a hole other can of worms. And it also doesn't explain why the Terran marines could handle Russ's geneseed.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

A related comment: 
Roboute Guilliman - Lexicanum

Roboute's arrival on Macragge was a portentous time, and many reported strange sights. Most notably, Konor dreamed of the Emperor, and found himself beside Hera's Falls in the Valley of Laponis. Upon awakening, Konor assembled his bodyguard and rode to Hera's Falls, where they found the child. The name Konor gave the child, Roboute, means "Great One".


Edit: Regarding precognitive abilities:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Orikan
He predicted the the Fall of the Eldar, the rise of the Imperium, the Horus Heresy, and the coming of the Tyranids, many thousands of years before each came to pass. He can even divine lesser occurrences such as the destinies of individuals and the movement of fleets.[1]


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Ehm Chompy you totally go up against fluff by suggesting that Empy had any control of where the pods landed. They all landed in shitholes, some worse than others. The only one landing in a place that could be called good was Roboute. Every Primarch was formed from the place he landed on. Remember the gods of Chaos spread the pods around mutating some of the guys (I'm just glad Alpharion and Omegeron didn't become one guy with two heads like an Ettin).

The geneseed of Leman Russ had some canine-things in them, I'm not denying that. But he was to be the Emperor's attack hound. He was mindless and singleminded which made him loyal but not endearing by any means. Though I'm unsure of how much that was from Earth and how much that was from the warp. I mean from the pictures I have seen of him, he seems perfectly human to me, without even the dog-nose of Goofy-fame.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Ehm Chompy you totally go up against fluff by suggesting that Empy had any control of where the pods landed. They all landed in shitholes, some worse than others. The only one landing in a place that could be called good was Roboute. Every Primarch was formed from the place he landed on. Remember the gods of Chaos spread the pods around mutating some of the guys (I'm just glad Alpharion and Omegeron didn't become one guy with two heads like an Ettin).


Which is why I ended by saying that if you follow that logic it becomes quite a stretch. I was trying to highlight how poorly explained the degradation of the Space Wolf geneseed outside of Fenris has been handled so far. Cuz some people have suggested it only works on Fenrisians, which means that it was an astronomically lucky coincidence that Russ happened to land there. Hell, why would the Chaos Gods dump Russ on the one single world that has inhabitants who can accept his geneseed without suffering rampant and uncontrolled mutation? Not to mention how Wolf Brothers who were probably also Fenrisians fell so rapidly to the Wulfen curse after resettling on another homeworld. And thinking about it, the Chaos Gods probably dumped Magnus on Prospero exactly because he would not only be free to explore his psychic powers without restraint, but also develop the level of arrogance in his own abilities that would eventually lead to him defying the will of the Emperor.

As for the Alpharius comment, it'd be pretty hilarious if a Vindicare was sent after a two headed primarch.
"Ok, I seen him... errr... them... errr... whatever. How do I proceed?"
"Shoot him in the head."
"But which one????"


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Beaviz81 said:


> Ehm Chompy you totally go up against fluff by suggesting that Empy had any control of where the pods landed. They all landed in shitholes, some worse than others. The only one landing in a place that could be called good was Roboute. Every Primarch was formed from the place he landed on. Remember the gods of Chaos spread the pods around mutating some of the guys (I'm just glad Alpharion and Omegeron didn't become one guy with two heads like an Ettin).
> 
> The geneseed of Leman Russ had some canine-things in them, I'm not denying that. But he was to be the Emperor's attack hound. He was mindless and singleminded which made him loyal but not endearing by any means. Though I'm unsure of how much that was from Earth and how much that was from the warp. I mean from the pictures I have seen of him, he seems perfectly human to me, without even the dog-nose of Goofy-fame.


I'm farily certain it was stated in the fluff that the emperor while unable to stop the vortex that took them was capable of influencing the pods in certain ways.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Hm I haven't heard it myself, but makes sense. The source of that would be nice.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Beaviz81 said:


> Hm I haven't heard it myself, but makes sense. The source of that would be nice.


It was stated in false gods during horus's vision I don't have the page number or anything.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> It was stated in false gods during horus's vision I don't have the page number or anything.


No it wasn't.

The Emperor _ found _ his sons using their psychic auras which served as beacons.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Chompy Bits said:


> And it also doesn't explain why the Terran marines could handle Russ's geneseed.


I believe Russ's geneseed wouldn't be entirely incompatible with non-Fenrisian recruits. The success rate would just be incredibly low. The success rate for Fenrisian recruits is already low enough, implanting non-Fenrisian recruits would simply be too cost ineffective. 

You've also raised many good points as to why the wolf primarch lands on the wolf planet (the planet where early colonists experimented on themselves with wolf DNA), and the psyker primarch lands on the psyker planet...

I think the explanation has always been the Emperor was able to guide some the pods (some but not all...Angron for example got totally fu**ed). An even more basic question would be "how did all 20 pods land on habitable planets?" Why did none of them wind up in a star or in some remote empty region of space or on an alien planet. 

My theory is that the Emperor was able to guide some of the pods and Chaos guided the remainder. Neither the Emperor nor Chaos wanted the primarchs to die. Both sides viewed them as assets.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Would be fun to see what would have happened if things were different. F.ex. Leman Russ coming to the place of sorcerers, Magnus coming to Macragge, Robute to Fenris and so on. Hehe.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

MontytheMighty said:


> I believe Russ's geneseed wouldn't be entirely incompatible with non-Fenrisian recruits. The success rate would just be incredibly low.


If that was the case the Legion would not have been feasible from the get go.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> If that was the case the Legion would not have been feasible from the get go.


With the Emperor's oversight I expect the first batch would've been fine and depending on how quickly Russ was found recruiting might not have been an issue before then.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

My guess is that the Curse didn't become an issue until after Russ was found. Meaning, Russ' gene-seed was stable until his own genes somehow became affected when he arrived on Fenris. When he was discovered his Legion was able to use his gene-seed directly (like every other Legion) to increase the rate of Space Marine creation.

Russ was the second Primarch found. This would mean that, at his time of discovery, there were probably only a few thousand Space Wolves of Terran birth. This means that, as the Great Crusade went on, there were far more Fenrisian Vlka Fenryka made using Russ' modified gene-seed/the Canis Helix. By the time of the Scouring, any Terran Space Wolves (or, really, any Terran-era gene-seed) might have been destroyed.

That's the most logical answer I can think of, at any rate.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> If that was the case the Legion would not have been feasible from the get go.


Not really, it would just mean that before the discovery of Russ and Fenris, the SW legion were a small legion because of very low geneseed compatibility among Terran recruits

As far as I know, we have no idea how big the pre-Russ SW legion was.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

The Wolf Brothers, Second Founding of the Space Wolves, were able to hold together as a Chapter for ~800 years. I figure the imcapaility with the geneseed requires successive generations of non-Fenersian hosts.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

MontytheMighty said:


> Not really, it would just mean that before the discovery of Russ and Fenris, the SW legion were a small legion because of very low geneseed compatibility among Terran recruits
> 
> As far as I know, we have no idea how big the pre-Russ SW legion was.


The problem I have with this is that you are speculating that the SWs were being inhibited by low numbers of successful initiates and those marines that fell to the curse. But they weren't. 

Russ was found, presumably he spent a while getting his Fenrisian buddies into the Legion, and then off he went on his merry way with the Crusade. There's no mention that he had to do anything like Magnus did, sitting on his home planet for decades looking for a cure for his sons because the curse made them an non viable fighting force while everyone else was crusading. They had the numbers to get the job done, and then some.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Well if the Wolfbrothers survived for 800 years before degenerating, one can speculate that that would have been the fate of any terran sourced marines as well. Had they lived long enough that be.


But let me throw out this thought. What if the Emperor purposefully -DESIGNED- Leman Russ to be extremely compatible with exactly the population of Fenris? Who knows, he might himself have been the cause of 'seeding' the genemanipulation knowledge with a wolfbent to the early Fenrisian colonists. That we know the early fenrisians modified themselves and that the Emperor blended Wolf dna in Russ' genome is a strong speaker for that idea.

After all the Emperor have an extreme level of precognitive abilities and a flair for long term planning. Such as bringing the Dragon to Mars to lay the framework for a Mechanicum 25.000 years in a distant future.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Brother Lucian said:


> But let me throw out this thought. What if the Emperor purposefully -DESIGNED- Leman Russ to be extremely compatible with exactly the population of Fenris? Who knows, he might himself have been the cause of 'seeding' the genemanipulation knowledge with a wolfbent to the early Fenrisian colonists. That we know the early fenrisians modified themselves and that the Emperor blended Wolf dna in Russ' genome is a strong speaker for that idea.
> 
> After all the Emperor have an extreme level of precognitive abilities and a flair for long term planning. Such as bringing the Dragon to Mars to lay the framework for a Mechanicum 25.000 years in a distant future.


Problem with that is it means that he would have had to have known the primarchs would have been scattered thousands and thousands of years in advance... so instead of doing that, why not just prevent the scattering to begin with? Or he did try and prevent the scattering and then influenced Fenrisian genetics as a backup measure and crossed his fingers, hoping Russ would eventually land there? I suppose one could argue that he might have had an incomplete vision of the future and simply known that he had to manipulate Fenrisian genetics for some reason, but possibly not why. Visions of the future can be vague like that. But like I said earlier, why would the Chaos Gods dump Russ on the one world specifically seeded to be able to carry his genetic legacy? Far too many "what ifs" for my liking when you start to follow that kind of reasoning.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Chompy Bits said:


> Problem with that is it means that he would have had to have known the primarchs would have been scattered thousands and thousands of years in advance... so instead of doing that, why not just prevent the scattering to begin with? Or he did try and prevent the scattering and then influenced Fenrisian genetics as a backup measure and crossed his fingers, hoping Russ would eventually land there? I suppose one could argue that he might have had an incomplete vision of the future and simply known that he had to manipulate Fenrisian genetics for some reason, but possibly not why. Visions of the future can be vague like that. But like I said earlier, why would the Chaos Gods dump Russ on the one world specifically seeded to be able to carry his genetic legacy? Far too many "what ifs" for my liking when you start to follow that kind of reasoning.



As I see it, the chaos gods wanted the Emperor to grow complacent and possess the galaxy for a while before they unveiled their master plan while he was blindsided by the webway crisis taking up all his time. So they let him have a few victories to make him think he really could affect the outcome of the long game.

And as they saw the primarchs as possible assetts that could be the turned to their ends, they might as well let Russ land on the prepared world where he would be able to sire the strongest and most powerful sons as possible. Khorne would be salivating at the thought of chaos turned Space Wolves. And those that have turned to the dark gods have been monsters.


Edit: And the Emperor have always been described as a precog. I see nothing wrong with predicting events thousands of years in advance. The necrons is capable of it.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Chompy Bits said:


> Problem with that is it means that he would have had to have known the primarchs would have been scattered thousands and thousands of years in advance... so instead of doing that, why not just prevent the scattering to begin with?


I hate to use something out of _The Outcast Dead_ but it brings up an excellent point. There's a difference between being omniscient and omnipotent. 

The Emperor could see what cards he was going to draw ahead of time, but you can't get a royal flush every time. Sometimes you have to settle for the best you can get. Sometimes that's just a two-pair.

Perhaps by avoiding the scattering some greater catastrophe would have occurred? 

This is a very dangerous game to be playing, though. Since this can litterally excuse every mistake the Emperor made. Teleporting Angron and leaving his army of slaves to die? Part of a bigger plan. Unleashing the Space Wolves on Magnus? Part of a bigger plan. Horus mortally wounding him? Part of a bigger plan.

Dangerous, dangerous logic to play with.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

hailene said:


> I hate to use something out of _The Outcast Dead_ but it brings up an excellent point. There's a difference between being omniscient and omnipotent.
> 
> The Emperor could see what cards he was going to draw ahead of time, but you can't get a royal flush every time. Sometimes you have to settle for the best you can get. Sometimes that's just a two-pair.
> 
> ...


Exactly, so better to prepare a contingency for the mess you knew where comming. But not how it would be starting.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Brother Lucian said:


> Khorne would be salivating at the thought of chaos turned Space Wolves. And those that have turned to the dark gods have been monsters.


This is actually a good point. One could then argue that chaos is in fact the influence behind the Wulfen curse/mutation (because I seriously doubt the Emperor would intentionally want some of them to devolve into monsters). It might have been a ploy similar to the fleshchange of the Thousand Sons, to force a pact between the Space Wolves legion and chaos in order to prevent fatal degradation of the Space Wolf geneseed. But previous manipulation of the Fenrisian genestock dulled the Wulfen curse effect to the point where the legion could still function properly, with no need to make a deal with chaos to prevent total degradation. And it would also possibly explain why Terran marines didn't degrade either. If the Emperor was indeed responsible for the genetic experimentation on Fenris, he could very well have practiced similar manipulation on the Terran Space Wolf recruits during the implantation process. But eh, this is all just speculation and conjecture on my part and it still has a few holes in the logic.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Chompy Bits said:


> This is actually a good point. One could then argue that chaos is in fact the influence behind the Wulfen curse/mutation (because I seriously doubt the Emperor would intentionally want some of them to devolve into monsters). It might have been a ploy similar to the fleshchange of the Thousand Sons, to force a pact between the Space Wolves legion and chaos in order to prevent fatal degradation of the Space Wolf geneseed. But previous manipulation of the Fenrisian genestock dulled the Wulfen curse effect to the point where the legion could still function properly, with no need to make a deal with chaos to prevent total degradation. And it would also possibly explain why Terran marines didn't degrade either. If the Emperor was indeed responsible for the genetic experimentation on Fenris, he could very well have practiced similar manipulation on the Terran Space Wolf recruits during the implantation process. But eh, this is all just speculation and conjecture on my part and it still has a few holes in the logic.


I can never see Khorn as sneaky/plotting.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Around 60.000 Space Wolves. They are like Millwall, nobody likes them and they don't care.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

locustgate said:


> I can never see Khorn as sneaky/plotting.


And likely why the Space Wolves are still loyal unlike the Thousand Sons.


But I digress, the Wolfdna blending of the early fenrisian colonists was to better stand live on their death world by drawing on the strenght of the wolf. But chaos enlarges and magnifies negative character traits, manifesting all that in those that gave in to their inner beast. Letting it be fully unchained. Something which the space wolves fights with on a constant basis. In the first ragnar blackmane novel, theres lots of good sequences of how he is squaring off against the beast that have been roused inside him and how he learns to live with it and not succumbing to it or embracing it to turn into a feral, mindless monster only driven by its urges and hungers.

We dont know how many Space wolves that fails that test during initiation, but even then early success is no guarantee as the initiate may devolve into a ravening wulfen. Only the barest few managing to keep control of themselves like Redmaw. So many similarities with the problems had by the Blood Angels, and Id presume the Thousand Sons as well if we knew more about how the flesh change would occur for them. Only the Space Wolves seems to have a much better grasp with dealing with their internal monster.

Edit: Hrm, you know. Perhaps its the culture of the space wolves that makes them much better suited to deal with their Primarch's legacy that may may not have been caused by the dark gods. But look at the Space Wolves, young uns are formed into Blood Claw packs where they are taught how to deal with their inner beast and their aggression. Whereas compared to the Blood Angels, they would rather pretend their gene curse not existing, every struggle a solitary affair until the mind of an unfortunate snaps and he becomes taken by the blood hunger and eventually ending up in the Death Company, or axed by Astorath the Grim. Making their curse a constant source of fear none of them wants to talk about. But we know that the curse is beatable, exceptional Blood Angels have forced it back down. Though it leaves one wondering if more would succeed if they would more openly face their problem instead of considering it taboo until it raises its head.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

hailene said:


> I hate to use something out of _The Outcast Dead_ but it brings up an excellent point. There's a difference between being omniscient and omnipotent.
> 
> The Emperor could see what cards he was going to draw ahead of time, but you can't get a royal flush every time. Sometimes you have to settle for the best you can get. Sometimes that's just a two-pair.


This is a good point but it doesn't really explain Russ. 1) Is it really so super necessary to have a wolf-like Primarch that you'd go to the trouble of genetically manipulating the population of the planet he will eventually land on? 2) If he knows where they are going to land wouldn't it be more important to remove (or prevent the development of) the Nails technology, or introduce law and order to Nostromo, or (most importantly) secular ideology to Culchis? Did he rate having a wolfy Russ as more important than a useable Angron, a loyal Curze or hell, stopping the entire Heresy? 



Chompy Bits said:


> But previous manipulation of the Fenrisian genestock dulled the Wulfen curse effect to the point where the legion could still function properly, with no need to make a deal with chaos to prevent total degradation.


Though since the Chaos Gods picked where the Primarchs landed you'd think they'd make sure that they didn't pick the single solitary planet that would undo the whole plan.



Brother Lucian said:


> And likely why the Space Wolves are still loyal unlike the Thousand Sons.


The Space Wolves are loyal because the Chaos Gods needed them to be loyal. I thought that was made pretty clear in _Prospero Burns_. Chaos manipulated the Wolves into nearly destroying the Sons in order to get Magnus to turn. Without a loyal Russ that doesn't happen and that'd piss Tzeentch off to no end. That might actually explain why Russ was put on Fenris though, in order to make sure he was threat enough for a) the Emperor to send him and b) Magnus to fight him, as well as possibly to make him and his soldiers loose their cool in battle.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Pretty clear to me, he was allowed to be put in his intended place, as they planned to use him against Magnus. While boosting the potency of Russ' legacy to monstrous levels to create the wulfen and opening avenues for future corruption after they had served their purpose in the grand plan.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Brother Lucian said:


> And likely why the Space Wolves are still loyal unlike the Thousand Sons.
> 
> 
> But I digress, the Wolfdna blending of the early fenrisian colonists was to better stand live on their death world by drawing on the strenght of the wolf. But chaos enlarges and magnifies negative character traits, manifesting all that in those that gave in to their inner beast. Letting it be fully unchained. Something which the space wolves fights with on a constant basis. In the first ragnar blackmane novel, theres lots of good sequences of how he is squaring off against the beast that have been roused inside him and how he learns to live with it and not succumbing to it or embracing it to turn into a feral, mindless monster only driven by its urges and hungers.
> ...


Look at mephistons situation. He succumbed to the red thirst and then was buried under tons of rubble. Unable to move or do anything. All he could do was face it and conquer it.

No other BA was put through that.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Reaper45 said:


> Look at mephistons situation. He succumbed to the red thirst and then was buried under tons of rubble. Unable to move or do anything. All he could do was face it and conquer it.


Did he though? There are several veiled hints in the codex that maybe he had some "outside" help with it.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Did he though? There are several veiled hints in the codex that maybe he had some "outside" help with it.


Though in the Mephiston LE release, theres a chaplain whom also succumbs to the black rage, but is so steadfast of character that he manages to fight it off. But considering Mephiston to be tainted for what he have become by conquering the black rage, he chooses to dive back into the madness of sanguinius' legacy rather than to become alike him.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Did he though? There are several veiled hints in the codex that maybe he had some "outside" help with it.


What kind of outside help?

I'm assuming chaos at this point, if that's the case how does it matter? a grey knight uses a daemon weapon. what's the difference.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> This is a good point but it doesn't really explain Russ. 1) Is it really so super necessary to have a wolf-like Primarch that you'd go to the trouble of genetically manipulating the population of the planet he will eventually land on? 2) If he knows where they are going to land wouldn't it be more important to remove (or prevent the development of) the Nails technology, or introduce law and order to Nostromo, or (most importantly) secular ideology to Culchis? Did he rate having a wolfy Russ as more important than a useable Angron, a loyal Curze or hell, stopping the entire Heresy?


As I said, the line of logic allows for ANYTHING to be "right".

Also, sure, He got screwed by a lot of things, but on the other hand he did come out ahead with Guilliman, Dorn, the speed at which the GC progressed...You can't just look at the bad. Maybe the overall package was worth it. Or simply less bad than the alternatives. 



MEQinc said:


> The Space Wolves are loyal because the Chaos Gods needed them to be loyal.


I don't think the Chaos gods made the Space Wolves loyal. The Chaos gods surely used the Wolves' loyalty to their benefit, of course.



MEQinc said:


> Chaos manipulated the Wolves into nearly destroying the Sons in order to get Magnus to turn.


Actually the false-Horus was sorta angry about how Magnus was willing to accept his fate. If I recall correctly, the daemon was disapointed that the Thousand Sons accepted their near-complete destruction instead of taking the Wolves down with them.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Ehm I think the Space Wolves were loyal because that's how Empy and Russ met. I mean Leman Russ accept above anything else and Empy proved stronger than him. So Leman Russ follow Empy. The Chaos gods had zero to do with that.

As for the Chaos gods exploiting the loyalty of the Space Wolves, excuse me, but that's quite the original fanfiction you have come up with there MEQ. The closest thing was Horus changing orders, which Leman Russ was more than happy to oblige with.

Who is the false-Horus? I know of Little Horus and the cloanes, and Abbaddon looks like Horus, but I don't know of anyone named False Horus. Or do you mean the decoy that was sniped?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Beaviz81 said:


> Who is the false-Horus? I know of Little Horus and the cloanes, and Abbaddon looks like Horus, but I don't know of anyone named False Horus. Or do you mean the decoy that was sniped?


Exactly what the name says. It was a daemon/tzentch that disguised it's self as Horus.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Reaper45 said:


> What kind of outside help?
> 
> I'm assuming chaos at this point, if that's the case how does it matter? a grey knight uses a daemon weapon. what's the difference.


The difference being that he now may not be entirely alone in his own head. One of the most influential leaders of a first founding chapter that seems to have a better relationship than most with it's successors would be a perfect target for possession.


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> The Space Wolves are loyal because the Chaos Gods needed them to be loyal. I thought that was made pretty clear in _Prospero Burns_. Chaos manipulated the Wolves into nearly destroying the Sons in order to get Magnus to turn. Without a loyal Russ that doesn't happen and that'd piss Tzeentch off to no end. That might actually explain why Russ was put on Fenris though, in order to make sure he was threat enough for a) the Emperor to send him and b) Magnus to fight him, as well as possibly to make him and his soldiers loose their cool in battle.


The original plan was to have the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons annihilate each other. From Prospero Burns, page 426-427:

‘I had hoped for more, if I am honest,’ he said. ‘Magnus is terribly
misguided. His dabblings have brought him perilously close
to damnation, and my father was right to restrain him. But he
would never have toppled over the brink without this violent
provocation. *I had so wanted the Wolves and the Sons to annihilate
each other here on Prospero, and remove themselves as
threats at a stroke.* But Magnus and Russ have remained true to
character. Magnus, high-minded and pious, has accepted his
punishment and been destroyed. Russ, relentless and brute-loyal,
has not wavered in his appalling task. The Thousand Sons have
been destroyed. The Wolves remain in play.’
He looked at me, and there was a glitter in his eye.
‘But in the fate of Magnus and his sons, there is compensation
for me. Broken by defeat, they nevertheless come across to my
side. As a consequence, I earn some redress against the fact that
the Vlka Fenryka remain a stark and extant danger to me.’[/I]


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

hailene said:


> Actually the false-Horus was sorta angry about how Magnus was willing to accept his fate. If I recall correctly, the daemon was disapointed that the Thousand Sons accepted their near-complete destruction instead of taking the Wolves down with them.


Right. They wanted Magnus to turn quicker. 



Beaviz81 said:


> Ehm I think the Space Wolves were loyal because that's how Empy and Russ met.


Leman Russ' first meeting with the Emperor was far less cordial than many other Primarchs, yet he remained loyal where they did not. Night Haunter, Lorgar and Magnus all yielded immediately to the Emperor yet they also all turned. Mortarion respects strength and toughness, yet the Emperor besting him remained a point of contention between them. Clearly there is more at play in the Space Wolves loyalty than the meeting between Primarch and Emperor.



> As for the Chaos gods exploiting the loyalty of the Space Wolves, excuse me, but that's quite the original fanfiction you have come up with there MEQ. The closest thing was Horus changing orders, which Leman Russ was more than happy to oblige with.


It would be a pretty original fan-fiction if it wasn't already written down by Dan Abnett in _Prospero Burns_. Your ignorance about the false Horus just shows to me that you haven't read that book, so maybe you should do that.



Karthak said:


> The original plan was to have the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons annihilate each other.


That's not any of the gods speaking. I personally don't think that Horus' and the gods plans were always the same (Signus for example) so just because Horus wanted the Sons and Wolves to destroy each other doesn't mean that the gods (or god) didn't aim to have Magnus turn.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

I never questioned the fact that Empy and Leman Russ didn't meet under amicable circumstances. Infact I'm the chap that added the points that Empy should eat and drink Russ under the table at 1d4-chan.

Ad no I haven't read the book as the reports I have read seems ludicrous for me.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Beaviz81 said:


> Ad no I haven't read the book as the reports I have read seems ludicrous for me.


Well, not to put to fine a point on it, but maybe you should familiarize yourself with the latest Space Wolf fluff before you accuse people of making stuff up.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Maybe it's a good idea. I guess I should read it so I at least can burn it after reading it if I don't like it. Though reading about Supermen, bah I could just as well watch a John Cena-match or watch Smallville as that likely wouldn't be any fun for me (I'm actually a fan of Smallville). Well at least Phil Kelly and Matt Ward haven't written the book as I suspect that would be completely unbearable.


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> That's not any of the gods speaking. I personally don't think that Horus' and the gods plans were always the same (Signus for example) so just because Horus wanted the Sons and Wolves to destroy each other doesn't mean that the gods (or god) didn't aim to have Magnus turn.


That wasn't Horus. It was a Daemon wearing the Warmaster's shape.

_‘What are you really?’ I asked.
‘You know my name,’ he laughed.
‘That’s just a mask, isn’t it?’ I said, pointing at his face. ‘What
are you really?’
‘Which mask would you prefer?’ he asked. He raised his hand
to his face, and tore away the flesh. It split like the husk of a peapod,
like fibrous vegetable matter, spilling sap like languid honey.
The features of Horus Lupercal parted, and underneath them
was the laughing face of Amon, Equerry to the Crimson King.
‘This one? The one you spoke to on Nikaea? The real Amon was
far below at his primarch’s side.’
He dropped the shredded Horus face onto the deck. It landed
with the splat of rotten fruit. Then he peeled the Amon face away
too. Milky sap spurted out and spattered down his breastplate,
drooling across the great staring eye. Now the sadly knowing
features of my old colleague Navid Murza gazed at me.
‘Or this one?’
‘The real one,’ I said. ‘The real one. No mask, just your real
face.’
‘You could not bear to look upon it,’ Navid said. ‘No one can
behold the baleful light of the Primordial Annihilator and survive._


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

*SW successor chapters*

I am pushed for time and didn't read all of the previous comments, all excellent and interesting I apologise for that.
Successor chapters for Space Wolves, easily explained, they don't conform to the Edicts of the Astartes Codex of Guilliman, they are exempt.
So they don't need them. There are without doubt 10 to 20 thousand operational Space Wolves in the Imperium.
The Fang, home of the Space Wolves, capable of housing 50-100k Space Marines and recruiting to that level from fenris alone.
Do you really think the Founding Legions loyal to the Emperor are only 1000 in strength, no REALLY!!!!!!!
Best kept secret in the Imperium, may the Emperor forgive me for telling you.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

They are not exempt from the Codex Astartes, they just ignore it.

As to the size of the Fang, yes, it's huge. However, in many of the 40k books that feature the Fang, it is mentioned that it is almost empty, and parts of it are falling into disrepair because they aren't being used. This would indicate that it's occupants don't come anywhere close to filling it's capacity.

You have to remember that the SWs were always one of the smaller legions. They then appear to have taken huge losses first in battle with the World Eaters, and then during the battle on Prospero, never mind what came after during their fight to get back to Terra. Then post Heresy they split their remaining strength in half in their one effort at creating a 2nd founding chapter. In the codex it also states that they've simply lost companies that have gone on a great hunt and never been heard from again. Take it up to the 41st Millenium, and they've fought in 2 particularly draining campaigns in which they committed a lot of their strength, the 1st war of Armageddon and the 13th Black Crusade, never mind the many common-or-garden campaigns and battles a SM chapter takes part in. When you add it all to the fact that the SW geneseed appears to have a higher than average attrition rate amongst recruits, it's logical that recruitment would not meet losses over the course of 10,000 years.

There's no doubt they number many more than the average chapter, but upwards of 10,000 is quite a stretch.



MuSigma said:


> Do you really think the Founding Legions loyal to the Emperor are only 1000 in strength, no REALLY!!!!!!!


As a matter of fact, yes. The UMs, IFs, WS, Sallies, RG and IHs are all adherents of the codex, thus only number in or around the 1000 marine mark, with a few, like the Sallies and RG rarely reaching that number. This is fluff covered in many sources, most importantly the SM codex.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> They then appear to have taken huge losses first in battle with the World Eaters, and then during the battle on Prospero


Could you please point me to the battle between the WE and the SW that took place pre-Prospero, or is this something that happens between Prospero and the defense of Terra? I really enjoy the SW and have never heard of this one, although that's not saying much.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Could you please point me to the battle between the WE and the SW that took place pre-Prospero, or is this something that happens between Prospero and the defense of Terra? I really enjoy the SW and have never heard of this one, although that's not saying much.


It's in Betrayer. A flashback shows a battle between Russ and Angron while their sons go at it around them.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Could you please point me to the battle between the WE and the SW that took place pre-Prospero, or is this something that happens between Prospero and the defense of Terra? I really enjoy the SW and have never heard of this one, although that's not saying much.



In Betrayer, Angron have many flashbacks to a battle between the World Eaters and the Space Wolves. Ending with him and Rush brawling in the mud.


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## Chryckan (Jul 17, 2013)

So far most arguments why the Wolf Brothers failed have been that it was directly linked to the SWs.
Since we don't actually have any fluff to guide us allow me to present an alternative theory.

They did it themselves.

We know from Battle of the fang that the SW was experimenting with trying to solve their geneseed problems AKA Wulfen curse. We also know not everyone agreed with it since it was seen as dangerous and threatening. 

Isn't it possible that the Wolf Brothers tried to do the same and succeed. Or at least thought they did until 800 years later they just spontaneously mutated into blobs. 
It would not be the first time that happened after all. (Thousand Sons anyone.)


Maybe the SW opposition saw it as dangerous because they had seen it fail once?


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## Chryckan (Jul 17, 2013)

I know I should probably let dead dogs lie but some of the comments about biology and what’s feasible got me thinking.
So here’s what we know about biology and genetics that could affect something like the wulfen curse.

Fact: About every seventh year the human body will have replaced practically every cell in its body.

Fact: This is in a perfect mechanism. Damages to a cell’s DNA often cause errors to appear in the process or otherwise known as mutation. Most often these mutations lead to rapid and abnormal growth of the cells. We know it as cancer.

Fact: RNA viruses exploit this mechanism of cell-division by replacing parts of the cell’s DNA with its own RNA forcing the cell to produce new viruses. This is the cause behind some of the most horrific and lethal diseases on the planet such as Ebola or AIDS. 

Fact: Geneticists can use modified RNA viruses to program a cell’s DNA with new DNA strands of their choice. This is how we have corn that can survive in cold climates or how mice can grow a human ear on their backs. For example, corn gets parts of its DNA replaced with DNA from cold resistant fishes making them able to survive cold temperatures.

Fact: By combining the ability to reprogram DNA with RNA viruses with the fact that the human body is always replacing old cells with new, scientists have come up with something called gene replacement therapy. This a medical procedure that tries to cure genetic diseases by reprograming the flawed cells that causes the disease so that when the flawed cell is reproduce the new cell will be a healthy cell whose DNA no longer carries the errors that cause the flawed cells and the disease in the first place. 
But the cure only works at the pace of the human body’s own cell reproduction rate.

Now so far all I’ve talked about is real life science. This is what geneticist does in labs right now. Want to know more. Then just check out Wikipedia or take a subscription to Science or Nature.

However, let’s look at space marines and 40k universe.

Now we know from codexes and IA articles that when a human is made into a space marine huge physical changes takes place in his body. For example his bones grow longer and denser (which btw from a biological point of view isn’t as smart as it sounds) and his ribcage fuses into a single thick bone plate.
We also know that these processes take time, often over ten years. It isn’t an instant process but a natural process taking advantage of the body’s own regenerative mechanism such as cell reproduction. 
We also know that a space marine candidate have to be young to be turned into a space marine as the process takes advantage of the human body’s growth from a child into an adult.
And that all this is triggered by the introduction of geneseed into the candidate.

If we combine what the fluff tells us about the making of a space marine and what genetics tells us, I think that we can safely conclude that what geneseed really is glands producing RNA viruses that are used to reprogram the human cells into becoming space marine cells.


Now let’s examine the curse of the wulfen. We know that the Space Wolves’ geneseed was created using canine strands of DNA. We also know that their geneseed is unstable so that if the candidate isn’t strong enough he will transform into a half man, half beast creature known as a wulfen.
From what we know it would seem likely what’s really happening is that the geneseed instead of creating superhuman space marine cells reinforced by positive canine abilities the geneseed is instead simply replacing the human cells with something resembling canine cells (or more likely dog/human hybrids) creating the half human half beast that is a wulfen.

However, would that process be able to change a human into a wolf thus fulfilling the there are no wolves on Fenris comment? 
Theoretically, yes. If you can replace all the human cells in a body with super human space marine cells there is nothing that prevents you from replacing the human cells that transforms a being into a body of a wolf.
Note however and this important, we’re talking about transforming a human body into a body identically of that of wolves. Not changing a human into a wolf. You can’t change species but you could however change physical features.
Such a transformed wolf would not be a Canis Lupus but a **** Sapiens Lupus.

Of course, while you could theoretically change a human body into that of a wolf through some process resembling gene replacement therapy the transition period would always kill the subject as no organism could survive consisting of cells from two different types of organisms at the same time.
(Fine, lichens but then lichens is a cellular level symbiotic relationship between an algae and a fungus let’s just simplify things by saying it’s two different organisms living in one body.)

So neither wulfen or fenrisian wolves should survive the curse.
Unless there is some additional mechanism involved that we don’t know about that keeps the subject alive and seeing how much more advanced science in the 40k universe are compared to our own that a safe assumption to make.

Which means that with a little faith in Big E (or some long forgotten noble laureate) biology do indeed allow for a space marine to transform into a wolf.


And we haven’t even mention psyker magic or warp mutations. This is all science and conjectures drawn from predictions on how the scientific field will progress. (Gene replacement therapy will probably been perfected within the next hundred years tops. So real life space marines are probably only a couple of hundred years away, not forty thousand.) Throw psyker magic and the warp into the mix and who knows what’s possible.


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## DarthMarko (Aug 20, 2012)

^ Wow

Wolves are I think warp spirits from their fallen brothers reborn to serve (Fenris and the whole life and death circle)...My theory...Seriosly, GW needs to clear that out ASAP....


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## Bigus Dikus (Aug 11, 2013)

I would like to know about Terran wolves or wulfen....


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

Further to my previous post, I really do believe that the founding Legions that have few or no successor chapters also seem to coincide with the Legions that still have a living Primarch.

Ultra Marines
Blood Angels
Iron Fists

Space Wolves 
Raven Guard
Salamanders
White Scars

Iron Hands
Dark Angels

the First three have dead Primarchs and lots successor chapters, the second group have few or no successor chapters and whose Primarchs left under mysterious circumstances. The last group are complete contradictions, the Iron Hands lost their Primarch early on and never really recovered morally, The Dark Angels have many successor chapters but a mysteriously dissappeared Primarch. the central group are all Legions that would not willingly accept the Codex, I wonder that the did a deal with the High Lords for their chapters to have immunity if they left the Imperium. The central four chapters all had living Primarchs at the end of the Heresy and the Scouring, and could have easily become Emperor Proxy or ruled jointly. Maybe there was a secret deal done, by which the Emperor could become a god and they left. Anyway part of the deal would be immunity from the Inquisition by reason of their purity of loyalty and service, and have their gene seed keep undiluted and a certain freedom from the codex to do what they like. Possibly having a much larger chapter and not needing successors or possibly not wanting them.
Kick the idea around, its biggish and newish.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

MuSigma said:


> the central group are all Legions that would not willingly accept the Codex,


The Blood Angels and Dark Angels are both non-codex chapters (but aren't included in your central four) whereas all but one of the Chapters listed as central are considered codex. Additionally, Dorn is one of the Primarchs noted to have most intensely opposed the break up of the Legions.



> The central four chapters all had living Primarchs at the end of the Heresy and the Scouring,


Depending on when the Scouring is considered to end this may not be true. Russ and Corax both disappeared sometime during it and Vulkan may have already been dead at that point. Additionally, Dorn is still alive at the end of the Scouring and is indeed one of the final Primarchs left standing.



> Maybe there was a secret deal done, by which the Emperor could become a god and they left. Anyway part of the deal would be immunity from the Inquisition by reason of their purity of loyalty and service, and have their gene seed keep undiluted and a certain freedom from the codex to do what they like.


I don't see how this deal works out for the Primarchs. On the one hand, they don't want the Emperor to be worshiped as a god. And on the other, why should they have to sacrifice their lives to prove their loyalty to a bunch of puny mortals who weren't even alive during the Heresy. 



> Possibly having a much larger chapter and not needing successors or possibly not wanting them.


The only problem with this is that most of the Chapters you think would've made this deal are not larger than Codex-standard Legions. Only the Black Templars (who are not an original Legion) and the Space Wolves (who, as noted throughout this thread, are a special case) are larger than normal.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

from what I've heard its something genetical t hat makes that only the inhabbitants of fenris are compatible with their geneseed


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

Haskanael said:


> from what I've heard its something genetical t hat makes that only the inhabbitants of fenris are compatible with their geneseed


But how can that be, since the first Space Wolves were Terrans, same as with all the other Legions?


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## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

I'll just chime in. 
IRRC in prospero burns and thousand sons there are passages that describe the sw as having problems with their marines and they are beginning to run low on numbers till leman is found. 

Hence gene seed can b implanted in terrans, however oftentimes there are troubles. There is even a Terran librarian who lasted for 200 years roughly. 

2ndly. Battle of the fang states the wolf brothers were created and last 1500 years I think before half turned to chaos. Before they turned its stated that they began to suffer losses to the wulfen, similar to the flesh tearers but instead of black rage it's wulfen. So they were unsustainable in the long term as a chapter, however they still lasted 1500 years and could've lasted longer if not for turning to chaos. 

The point is not that the genes we'd does not function outside of fenris, it is that it does not function efficiently. Why waste time making chapters that cannot sustain themselves because they are inefficient?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

There has been fine discussion over why they have a hard time with a successful recruiting process as well as predecessor. 

One question I think is interesting to dwell upon is why the Emperor implanted the certain genetics into Leman Russ in order for him to have a better chance of a survival in a planet like Fenris. Certain ideas like whether the Emperor had some future insight over what the Primarchs were going to go through or whether the Emperor gave Leman Russ an "interesting" set of genetics for a controversal set of purposes...


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> One question I think is interesting to dwell upon is why the Emperor implanted the certain genetics into Leman Russ in order for him to have a better chance of a survival in a planet like Fenris.


I'm not sure he did. I'm fairly certain any other primarch would have prospered just as well on Fenris. We've seen that they are pretty much invulnerable to anything other than another primarch, or chaos infused weapons. I don't think a little inclement weather (that's all that the hostile Fenrisian climate would be to any primarch) would undo any of them.


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## Theangryone (Sep 21, 2013)

Unless it has been retconned, it is my understanding that the Wolves and Templars are the only two chapters that do not adhere to the codex. The Templars true numbers are suspected to be around 5-6k if remember correctly. Russ on the other hand, only adhered to the spirit of the codex not the letter. Rather than split his Legion into successor chapters, he broke the legion up into twelve great companies with each commanded by a Wolf Lord and having around 1000 marines. I believe that during the Heresy the Wolves were the smallest legion


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