# A word or two about Dan Abnett...



## Doom wolf (Oct 10, 2014)

Aaah Dan Abnett ! _The_ professionnal in entire writing roster in the BL.












Not that I've said the best, tough.

Don't get me wrong, he's one of my favorite. He know how to write an epic story, can write some very witty and funny dialogue. Untill now, I never been really disappointed by a Dan Abnett novel or story. (If one did disappoint you, just tell me which one and why, your POV is interesting me.)

His writing gimmick always make me smile. (Especially, when he use italic policy to make actions and event description _that_ more awesome. :grin

But Dan Abnett treatement of WH40K isn't without flaw.

You see, he love's the military and techno thriller stuff, I mean, the real one and I suspect that it played a role in his wrting with _Battle of calth_ and _Horus Rising_. Sometimes, you read his work on ultramarine and almost guess there's a "_USA_" or "_SAS_" sigil instead of the Ultima symbol...:grin:

When I readed "Legion", I could almost mistake the place for a space Afghanistan or Irak planet. (Desert place... Veiled guerillero warriors... Yeah...)

Sometimes, he seems to ripp-off idea, like the Megarachnid in Horus Rising, who seem A LOT like the bugs from _Starship troopers_, or _Iron Snake_ who made me think of a WHK Rip-off of _300_.

But all in all I think his writing he's very good, and I'm glad he's helping to build the 40K verse. He's given some great concepts like the Perpetuals, the pariahs, which are all good idea to me. (Untill they began to overuse it, of course...)

I'm just afraid he will bow to the bad habits that haunt Black Library and start to use some of his plot or character toys too much, like I feel he's done in _Unremembered Empire_.

Your advice ?


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## neferhet (Oct 24, 2012)

Doom wolf said:


> When I readed "Legion", I could almost mistake the place for a space Afghanistan or Irak planet. (Desert place... Veiled guerillero warriors... Yeah...)
> 
> Sometimes, he seems to ripp-off idea, like the Megarachnid in Horus Rising, who seem A LOT like the bugs from Starship troopers, or Iron Snake who made me think of a WHK Rip-off of 300.


hell, he's an heck of a rip-off-man! :biggrin: He writes in a simple pleasant way though, and his novels are entertaining enough to be remembered


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm failing to see how Iron Snakes, is a rip off of 300? Sure the chapter is based heavily around Ancient Greek culture, but no more than the Space Wolves or Thousand Sons with the Norse and Egyptians respectively. But 300 specifically? Again, I really don't see the connection there.


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## LazyG (Sep 15, 2008)

Ripoff.... so much of 40k fiction rips something else off. Abnett is better than most.


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## Doom wolf (Oct 10, 2014)

Angel of Blood said:


> I'm failing to see how Iron Snakes, is a rip off of 300? Sure the chapter is based heavily around Ancient Greek culture, but no more than the Space Wolves or Thousand Sons with the Norse and Egyptians respectively. But 300 specifically? Again, I really don't see the connection there.


I read it a long time ago, since someone stole me the book, all that's was left to me was my impression at the time. I confessed to have half forgotted the book except this odd feeling, but I can be wrong. :mrgreen:


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

40k is pretty much a total rip-off of everything. Ever.

Double Eagle is a blatant 40k retelling of the Battle of Britain. Does that make it a bad book? Hell no! :good:

Yet GW love swing the IP Hammer when somebody dares to copy them. I believe that could be called double standards :laugh:


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## Doom wolf (Oct 10, 2014)

Tawa said:


> 40k is pretty much a total rip-off of everything. Ever.
> 
> Double Eagle is a blatant 40k retelling of the Battle of Britain. Does that make it a bad book? Hell no! :good:
> 
> Yet GW love swing the IP Hammer when somebody dares to copy them. I believe that could be called double standards :laugh:


I second that. :laugh:

It's just, some ripoff are more obvious than others, and some are more "in tune" with the general mood of a work than some.

Like you said, ripoff aren't that bad. I remember that a quite illustrious writers said that in the wrtiing world, "stealing idea" was too often defined as "research work". :laugh:

But you could ripoff something bad, and make it good. (And vice versa, alas !)


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

There are no original thoughts in any fiction, really. Ciaphus Cain is Blackadder in space, Gaunt's Ghosts is a reworking of the Sharpe novels. However, if you take an old idea and manage to put a new and original twist on it, which Abnetts does, good on ya. We have seen a BL author rip off others almost word for word, but it's not Abnett.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think its kind of harsh, though I know your not trying to be. I actually liked all his Heresy Novels thus far. Some more than others.

I would say that some of his novels are quite radical, like _Legion,_ or _Prospero Burns._ However, if my time in the Heresy series has taught me anything, its that I would choose quality any day. 

_Horus Rising,_ still such an awesome book, and I really don't think the series would have gone this far without it. 

As far as his "radical" pieces, I've always noticed polar feeling from either or both _Legion_, or _Prospero Burns._ In each instance, it makes each legion appear over powered compared to the rest. But I once wondered how the series would be if Dan Abnett could have written about each legion. It would have probably been impossible, but it certainly would have had a certain flow. There are very few authors in the Heresy Series that should be considered consistent, and along with ADB, I would say Abnett really fills that spot.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I think it's too easy to say that someone "ripped something off" or that he is "re-making" someone else's work.

Sharpe and Gaunt, to name an example, share very few qualities other than being imaginative commanders who care about their soldiers despite being thrust in a vicious war. Even fewer of those qualities are anything more than tangential connections (e.g., both Gaunt and Sharpe have a likable second-in-command whose death drives home the sense of loss to the reader).

And where the Iron Snakes of Ithaca are concerned, virtually the only real link between them and "300" is that the Spartans were a Greek people and Abnett looked to mythic Greece for inspiration. There is, literally, *nothing* explicitly Spartan about the Iron Snakes.


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## jasonpittman (May 17, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> There are no original thoughts in any fiction, really. Ciaphus Cain is Blackadder in space.


I think you will find Ciaphas Cain is a complete ripoff of Flashman rather than Blackadder so much so after reading Ciaphas Cain I got into reading the Flashman novels. Sandy Mitchell doesn't even try to hide the fact.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

jasonpittman said:


> I think you will find Ciaphas Cain is a complete ripoff of Flashman rather than Blackadder so much so after reading Ciaphas Cain I got into reading the Flashman novels. Sandy Mitchell doesn't even try to hide the fact.


There's as much Blackadder in there as there is Flashman. But thanks for helping prove my point.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

How the hell do you see the ultramarines as Americans In know no fear?.......


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

Cultural lens or personal bias, presumably. While some inspirations, homages or crafting techniques can be readily identified as intended, the reader can often draw comparisons that aren't _really_ there based on what they bring to the text themselves, and even make a case for it.

I could probably make a good argument that John Grammaticus in Legion is basically Zakalwe from Iain M Banks' Use of Weapons with the edges filed off, but I don't believe for a second that it is in fact the case. More like similar ground and my own personal bias (I read about Zakalwe first and like the character) makes me draw the connection.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Mob said:


> Cultural lens or personal bias, presumably. While some inspirations, homages or crafting techniques can be readily identified as intended, the reader can often draw comparisons that aren't _really_ there based on what they bring to the text themselves, and even make a case for it.
> 
> I could probably make a good argument that John Grammaticus in Legion is basically Zakalwe from Iain M Banks' Use of Weapons with the edges filed off, but I don't believe for a second that it is in fact the case. More like similar ground and my own personal bias (I read about Zakalwe first and like the character) makes me draw the connection.


In sorry but comparing anything in 40k to America is just plain wrong


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

everything in Fiction is either based, or very similar to something else its neigh impossible to come up with something that has not already been done to some extend. 

Lucius "the eternal", was already an esteblished 40K character before they started on the Horus Heresy series, this was simply a chance for them to flesh out his origins.

Ultramarines and Sas/Usa? I honestly am clueless how you got to this comparison.

the megarachnids came across more like proto Tyranids to me then anything else,.
And all things considered almost every bug like race in science fiction settings are based on the bugs of Starship troopers. so there is not much of a case there.


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## Doom wolf (Oct 10, 2014)

Garviel loken. said:


> In sorry but comparing anything in 40k to America is just plain wrong


Of course ! :grin:

Yet, the feeling of the ultramarines in "_Know no fear_", (You know, "Theoretical/Practical" things...) is quite... evocative of a more modern army that I am used to in 40K. 

That's why I said "USA" _or_ "SAS", maybe I should have said "USMC" or "Navy Seals", maybe. 

If I wanted to stretch the idea very far, I would have said that something like Calth is reminiscent of Pearl Harbor, Or 9/11 with a 40K scales. A fiendish attack surprise that cause a lot of mayhem, shock and disbelief. But maybe he was just influenced by the times, or I was.

And it doesn't help that the story is essentially constructed like many hollywood war movie.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Doom wolf said:


> Of course ! :grin:
> 
> Yet, the feeling of the ultramarines in "_Know no fear_", (You know, "Theoretical/Practical" things...) is quite... evocative of a more modern army that I am used to in 40K.
> 
> ...


Um....There isnt an army in the world right now that uses theoreticals and practicals....

And ultramarines act nothing like Americans in their mannerisms. From your logic i could easily say the Ultramarines are more Canadian inspired, as the Canadian military is much more disciplined and trained over the Americans. 

The ultramarines are Roman insprired, Thats all


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

Doom wolf said:


> Of course ! :grin:
> 
> Yet, the feeling of the ultramarines in "_Know no fear_", (You know, "Theoretical/Practical" things...) is quite... evocative of a more modern army that I am used to in 40K.
> 
> ...


Calth = trojan horse.


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## Doom wolf (Oct 10, 2014)

Garviel loken. said:


> Um....There isnt an army in the world right now that uses theoreticals and practicals....
> 
> And ultramarines act nothing like Americans in their mannerisms. From your logic i could easily say the Ultramarines are more Canadian inspired, as the Canadian military is much more disciplined and trained over the Americans.
> 
> The ultramarines are Roman insprired, Thats all


I'm not so sure for the Theoretical/Practical things, it sounds more like some military manual, which is perfect for Guilliman characterisation as the ultimate logistic/organisational leader.

No doubt that Ultramarines are inspired by the Roman empire, but "inspired" is the key word. Frankly, all Dan Abnett has really done is putting latin names and titles on some characters, and that's all.

When you get a closer look on Maccrage in_the Unremembered empire_, it looks more like a modern country of the early twenty century.

And John Grammaticus looks more like a cross between James Bond and Jason Bourne, with a dash of Zakalwe from _Consider Phlebas_ indeed.

That doesn't stop neither to be awesome, tough.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Doom wolf said:


> I'm not so sure for the Theoretical/Practical things, it sounds more like some military manual, which is perfect for Guilliman characterisation as the ultimate logistic/organisational leader.
> 
> No doubt that Ultramarines are inspired by the Roman empire, but "inspired" is the key word. Frankly, all Dan Abnett has really done is putting latin names and titles on some characters, and that's all.
> 
> ...


Well your entitled to you opinion


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

Doom wolf said:


> I'm not so sure for the Theoretical/Practical things, it sounds more like some military manual, which is perfect for Guilliman characterisation as the ultimate logistic/organisational leader.
> 
> No doubt that Ultramarines are inspired by the Roman empire, but "inspired" is the key word. Frankly, all Dan Abnett has really done is putting latin names and titles on some characters, and that's all.
> 
> ...


there was a 20th century country that was ruled by one leader but devided into parts with their own representative caretakers like roman senates? because that is what 30th Millenium Ultramar was.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Tawa said:


> 40k is pretty much a total rip-off of everything. Ever.
> 
> Double Eagle is a blatant 40k retelling of the Battle of Britain. Does that make it a bad book? Hell no! :good:


Pearl Harbour, mate. Pearl harbour. No seriously. If you can stomach watching that piece of shit of a film (in between the splodey bits, anyway), then it's more than blatant, it's near enough a shot for shot copy of the film.

As for lokens comments regarding theoreticals and practicals, I'm not entirely sure what he's on about. Racks room talk is pretty much all about what happens if the Russians Attack, or where they're going to come from, or what if it's the Americans, or what we're going to do about Africa.


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

Garviel loken. said:


> In sorry but comparing anything in 40k to America is just plain wrong


Well, there's the odd outlier like Sly Marbo. But I was more going for the idea that everyone has a cultural or personal context that gives them some reason to draw a comparison where fiction is concerned.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Vaz said:


> Pearl Harbour, mate. Pearl harbour. No seriously. If you can stomach watching that piece of shit of a film (in between the splodey bits, anyway), then it's more than blatant, it's near enough a shot for shot copy of the film.


I watched that steaming turd once and the historian in me nearly suffered multiple aneurisms......


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## Doom wolf (Oct 10, 2014)

Tawa said:


> I watched that steaming turd once and the historian in me nearly suffered multiple aneurisms......


I go off the thread a little more, but as an history afficionados I do know that history and movies doesn't mix very well.

Too much different goals, and too much imperatives between the two.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Vaz said:


> Pearl Harbour, mate. Pearl harbour. No seriously. If you can stomach watching that piece of shit of a film (in between the splodey bits, anyway), then it's more than blatant, it's near enough a shot for shot copy of the film.
> 
> As for lokens comments regarding theoreticals and practicals, I'm not entirely sure what he's on about. Racks room talk is pretty much all about what happens if the Russians Attack, or where they're going to come from, or what if it's the Americans, or what we're going to do about Africa.


But theoreticals and pTactical a are something each individual member of the ultramarines come up with. There isn't an army in the world that does this


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Garviel loken. said:


> But theoreticals and pTactical a are something each individual member of the ultramarines come up with. There isn't an army in the world that does this


Vaz is saying that no, troopers in modern armies _do_ frequently come up with independent theoreticals and frankly, I think his word on that is more valid than yours from what I know of you both.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

MidnightSun said:


> Vaz is saying that no, troopers in modern armies _do_ frequently come up with independent theoreticals and frankly, I think his word on that is more valid than yours from what I know of you both.


Of course soldiers come try to come up with an understanding of the battlefield, but name me one army on earth that says aloud to their fellow soldiers and commanders "The theoretical is ____, and the practical is _____". There isnt one. Again if we are going to compare the ultramarine to any modern army it would be the Canadians or the Brits for their supreme training.


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## Doom wolf (Oct 10, 2014)

Garviel loken. said:


> Of course soldiers come try to come up with an understanding of the battlefield, but name me one army on earth that says aloud to their fellow soldiers and commanders "The theoretical is ____, and the practical is _____". There isnt one. Again if we are going to compare the ultramarine to any modern army it would be the Canadians or the Brits for their supreme training.


I'm sure this statement it's not having anything to do with the fact your canadian ! :laugh::laugh::laugh:

(Just joking.)


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Doom wolf said:


> I'm sure this statement it's not having anything to do with the fact your canadian ! :laugh::laugh::laugh:
> 
> (Just joking.)


Well i wont deny i am patriotic

But ever since ww1 us canucks have been regarded as some of the best.

The germans even called us storm troopers!


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Garviel loken. said:


> Of course soldiers come try to come up with an understanding of the battlefield, but name me one army on earth that says aloud to their fellow soldiers and commanders "The theoretical is ____, and the practical is _____". There isnt one. Again if we are going to compare the ultramarine to any modern army it would be the Canadians or the Brits for their supreme training.


"Comparable to" does not mean "Exactly equal to in every respect".


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

MidnightSun said:


> "Comparable to" does not mean "Exactly equal to in every respect".


You mean you have one tiny strand that is comparable?:taunt:


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I dunno, I thought if Know No Fear was a war film the Ultramarines would be Americans. Sure, they're not Americans, but I thought that they would be if it was a war film (which the book felt like).


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

As a total aside, I learned (thanks to the General Election in the UK) that "theoretical" and "practical" are terms used by statisticians when analysing polling.
So, uh. That's completely irrelevant. But something I noted.

The idea is surely just a 'Ultramarine-y' way of referring to something many militaries do (as well as problem-solvers in other fields).

I'm reminded of a section in a Neal Stephenson novel when a US marine who achieved hero status for defeating a Japanese infantry assault was interviewed about his tactics when presented with such a situation, so others could learn from it.
He answered "You kill the ones with the swords first"
The interviewer asked if this was a strategy based on the theory that the one with the sword was the officer of the unit. They reply was
"No, you ******* it's because they run at you with a ******** sword! You ever had someone running at you with a ******** sword?!"

Theory meets practical.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Mob said:


> As a total aside, I learned (thanks to the General Election in the UK) that "theoretical" and "practical" are terms used by statisticians when analysing polling.
> So, uh. That's completely irrelevant. But something I noted.
> 
> The idea is surely just a 'Ultramarine-y' way of referring to something many militaries do (as well as problem-solvers in other fields).
> ...


Thats interesting about the politics thing. I guess that's where abnett got his inspiration from. So it's a British influence and had nothing to do with military. Very cool


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Garviel loken. said:


> Of course soldiers come try to come up with an understanding of the battlefield, but name me one army on earth that says aloud to their fellow soldiers and commanders "The theoretical is ____, and the practical is _____". There isnt one. Again if we are going to compare the ultramarine to any modern army it would be the Canadians or the Brits for their supreme training.


Not in so many words. That's putting a grand sounding name on it.

Considering that FPGRM was based in Arbroath, as in, the UK's nuclear submarine base, and the single greatest threat to any "theoretical" Russian invasion of the land, it was customary to have various plans and contingencies, with back ups for if they failed.

I can't tell you the number of times (seriously, I can't, it's a legal thing) when I've fished out Special Boat Service personnel performing a probe on our defence, or caught Special Air Service parachuting in, or any other various numbers of "random passersby" who "just so happen" to have ended up taking a picture in a spot that's not particularly helpful to security.

These happen from learning via experience of doing them wrong, but from people saying "what if".

One of the things that really fucking annoys me about Know No Fear is that with the exception of a single marine that no-one envisages having to attack other legions; considering the Space Wolves background, and the World Eaters, and the role that the previous 2 legions, as well as presumably the fate of the Thunder Warriors, not having any concept of attacking another (especially as they train against one another too) legion is fucking preposterous.

Dan Abnett isn't as bad as Graham McNeil for using that as a story device, but it's a pretty large plot hole/fridge logic moment that bears explaining as to exactly WHY something like that is the case.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Garviel loken. said:


> if we are going to compare the ultramarine to any modern army it would be the Canadians or the Brits for their supreme training.


I've worked alongside Canadian soldiers. Wasn't that impressed TBH. Good engineers, but the infantrymen weren't quite up to snuff.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Khorne's Fist said:


> I've worked alongside Canadian soldiers. Wasn't that impressed TBH. Good engineers, but the infantrymen weren't quite up to snuff.


Frag OOT!


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## Doom wolf (Oct 10, 2014)

Vaz said:


> One of the things that really fucking annoys me about Know No Fear is that with the exception of a single marine that no-one envisages having to attack other legions; considering the Space Wolves background, and the World Eaters, and the role that the previous 2 legions, as well as presumably the fate of the Thunder Warriors, not having any concept of attacking another (especially as they train against one another too) legion is fucking preposterous.
> 
> Dan Abnett isn't as bad as Graham McNeil for using that as a story device, but it's a pretty large plot hole/fridge logic moment that bears explaining as to exactly WHY something like that is the case.


Tough your argument is quite valid, I would like to point that the Ultramarine legion have been forged by one of the most "orthodox" Primarch.

Space Wolves are seen as clinically insane savage but loyal to the end, and World Eaters as... okay, you got me there ! :laugh:

Seriously, the World eaters were seems to been quite loyal, even if savage. Nobody among the imperium seemed to imagine that chaos could infect a Primarch (Which is dum, I'm the first to admit it...) because the imperium citizen thinked they knew all there is to know about everything...

Then, I'm not sure the Ultramarines knew about the night of the wolf, they didn't seem to know about the red hand and the murder duel of the Night Lords...


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

That still makes no sense.

To identify your strengths, you also need to identify your weaknesses. Take for example Power Armour. They know that the weak points are the visors and joints because there's no plating there.

That is the very basic of knowing the theory of taking down marines.

When they are in training, punching another astartes in the chest is going to do nothing, because of the fused and reinforced bone of the ribcage - you can't stab them in the heart or lungs. They have reduced reliance on things like the intestinal system - that leaves at a guess from pov either along the armpit or the neck.

Considering that this Primarch is Sun Tzu, Julius Caesar, Duke of Wellington, Napoleon, Alexander, Hannibal and Rommel all rolled into one, I find it singularly disconcerting that even considering the events on Monarchia he didn't envisage the potential for attacking legions. 

The Space Wolves considered themselves "Executioners in the Emperor's role", and that the Ultramarines new that time would come for them to give up the way of the warrior, they have to be intelligent enough to realise that time would have come to kill other legionaries. Why there were no theoreticals for that is pretty criminal for the point of view of a commander.

You can state that "you can't compare with a far future military of transhuman supersoldiers", but from pretty much every high tech super advanced military film and scifi ever pretty much consists of such technology reneging on the humans, without that being a metatype thinking, for such highly capable characters (imagine Littlefinger in the Game of Thrones or Varys with their intelligence and cognitive speed in recognizing the change of political landscape) to not think "oh shit, what if putting Horus in charge of the majority of the Imperium's armed forces was a bad thing?" (which Guilliman, among others, thought in the first place), why was there nothing in place?

I can't exactly say that they'll have imagined a massive starship crashing into a planet and then having the systems star turned into a poisonous radioactive light is pretty out there, but repeatedly harping on the point that there was no "theoreticals" from a wider perspective is absolute bullshit, as is the reason for why Thiel was marked for Censure.

I don't have that many other complaints about it, but that massive amount of self evident logic gap is annoying for me.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Khorne's Fist said:


> I've worked alongside Canadian soldiers. Wasn't that impressed TBH. Good engineers, but the infantrymen weren't quite up to snuff.


I don't want to get into a whole thing here, but it just a historic fact that they are extremely well trained. That being said I'm not sure where or who you served with.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Vaz said:


> Not in so many words. That's putting a grand sounding name on it.
> 
> Considering that FPGRM was based in Arbroath, as in, the UK's nuclear submarine base, and the single greatest threat to any "theoretical" Russian invasion of the land, it was customary to have various plans and contingencies, with back ups for if they failed.
> 
> ...


Well, I think its the fact they turned from the Emperor. That itself was unthinkable to them. That being said it was naive of the ultramarines to think that.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Vaz makes a good point. We even have WBs speculating about how the UMs got so big is because they absorbed survivors of one of the missing legions, and then it's the UMs that are sent to censure the WBs on Monarchia. It really isn't plausible to think that Guilliman went into that confrontation without having some sort of contingency plan in case it all went tits up, however unlikely he thought that was.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Vaz makes a good point. We even have WBs speculating about how the UMs got so big is because they absorbed survivors of one of the missing legions, and then it's the UMs that are sent to censure the WBs on Monarchia. It really isn't plausible to think that Guilliman went into that confrontation without having some sort of contingency plan in case it all went tits up, however unlikely he thought that was.


Guilliman himself was never....fond of lorgar. He knew there was resentment. But I dont think he could have ever thought it would lead to this.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

> 'And don't pretend you haven't run multiple theatrical simulations on all of us, Roboute,' the Lion sneered.
> 'I won't,' replied Guilliman. 'You are quite correct. The projections concerning the Khan were troubling.'


From _The Unremembered Empire_, which takes place two years after Know No Fear.

It does seem silly that Guilliman wouldn't have thought running theoreticals on fighting Astartes was a good idea, but as a narrative feature, going from having him censure anyone running theoreticals on killing Space Marines to running full simulations on all the other Primarchs and presumably their Legions in a span of less than two years really emphasises how important Calth is and how much it changed the people involved. 

It still doesn't make sense that Guilliman hadn't done it before Calth, but I can kinda forgive it as a narrative device.



Garviel loken. said:


> Guilliman himself was never....fond of lorgar. He knew there was resentment. But I dont think he could have ever thought it would lead to this.


On the other hand, there is the one line in _Betrayer_ along the lines of Lorgar realising that Guilliman had never hated him before. Lorgar thought Guilliman hated him which is why Guilliman agreed to the events of Monarchia, but in _Betrayer_ he realises that's not the case and Guilliman never actually had a big issue with Lorgar and actually took part in Monarchia because of his duty and obedience to the Emperor. However, I might have remembered that wrongly, so if someone with the book can confirm it either way I'd be grateful.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

MidnightSun said:


> From _The Unremembered Empire_, which takes place two years after Know No Fear.
> 
> It does seem silly that Guilliman wouldn't have thought running theoreticals on fighting Astartes was a good idea, but as a narrative feature, going from having him censure anyone running theoreticals on killing Space Marines to running full simulations on all the other Primarchs and presumably their Legions in a span of less than two years really emphasises how important Calth is and how much it changed the people involved.
> 
> ...


No your right. What i meant by he wasnt fond of him, was that he didnt agree with how lorgar acted. (the whole religious thing)

I think the reason Guilliman didnt run theoreticals on fighting astartes, is because the notion is absurd to him, and bordering on treason.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Oh, certainly, I don't think any of the Primarchs were particularly comfortable with Lorgar's zeal to a greater or lesser extent.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Vaz said:


> One of the things that really fucking annoys me about Know No Fear is that with the exception of a single marine that no-one envisages having to attack other legions; considering the Space Wolves background, and the World Eaters, and the role that the previous 2 legions, as well as presumably the fate of the Thunder Warriors, not having any concept of attacking another (especially as they train against one another too) legion is fucking preposterous.
> 
> Dan Abnett isn't as bad as Graham McNeil for using that as a story device, but it's a pretty large plot hole/fridge logic moment that bears explaining as to exactly WHY something like that is the case.


I hear you... but I think this comes down to the mental/psychological conditioning that the Legiones Astartes are subjected to.

We're not, after all, talking about something like, "Oh, we just never _thought_ of fighting other Space Marines." The sentiment consistently expressed is one of sheer _disbelief_ at the very notion of fighting one of their battle-brothers/cousins. The idea is thought of as impossible.

Nor do I think it's a coincidence that the Night Lords, Space Wolves, and World Eaters are the three Legions that fall outside this mindset. The Night Lords almost certainly didn't go through with the full range of conditioning protocols once they were reunited with the Night Haunter. The World Eaters were fundamentally broken once they took on the Butcher's Nails. And as for the Space Wolves, however much Black Library seems to be distancing themselves from the concept nowadays, it's obvious that the original intent (as of _Prospero Burns_ and _Deliverance Lost)_ was that they were designed to be a certain way and then given a role that matched it.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Garviel loken. said:


> I think the reason Guilliman didnt run theoreticals on fighting astartes, is because the notion is absurd to him, and bordering on treason.


And yet he felt the need to bring his entire legion to face down Lorgar and his 50,000 sons. If he didn't think there might be a need to have them there, why not just turn up with his personal retinue, or whatever contingent would normally be on his flag ship? No, he felt that he had to out number the WBs, _just in case. _

The more I think about it the more it becomes clear that this is a major plot hole left by Abnett. Going on previous work it's blatantly obvious that he _had _planned for facing off against the WBs. It's a similar fuck up to McNeil's timeline mistake in TOD. Saying that the idea would be so absurd that a master strategist like Girlyman wouldn't ever contemplate formulating a plan for it is just plain stupid.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Khorne's Fist said:


> And yet he felt the need to bring his entire legion to face down Lorgar and his 50,000 sons. If he didn't think there might be a need to have them there, why not just turn up with his personal retinue, or whatever contingent would normally be on his flag ship? No, he felt that he had to out number the WBs, _just in case. _
> 
> The more I think about it the more it becomes clear that this is a major plot hole left by Abnett. Going on previous work it's blatantly obvious that he _had _planned for facing off against the WBs. It's a similar fuck up to McNeil's timeline mistake in TOD. Saying that the idea would be so absurd that a master strategist like Girlyman wouldn't ever contemplate formulating a plan for it is just plain stupid.


You do know the whole Calth thing was set up by horus. Horus odered Guilliman to have his legion at Calth. So, no Guilliman didnt feel the need to have his whole legion there.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Garviel loken. said:


> You do know the whole Calth thing was set up by horus. Horus odered Guilliman to have his legion at Calth. So, no Guilliman didnt feel the need to have his whole legion there.


I'm not talking about Calth. I'm talking about Monarchia.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Khorne's Fist said:


> I'm not talking about Calth. I'm talking about Monarchia.


Oh. Well in that regard he was still ordered by the emperor to do it.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Garviel loken. said:


> Oh. Well in that regard he was still ordered by the emperor to do it.


Jesus, it's like talking to a brick wall. Whether or not the Emperor ordered him to do it, whether or not the idea was absurd and almost treasonous to him, do you really think he'd go in there without a plan for taking on Lorgar and 50,000 SMs? If you choose to believe that, you really haven't any sort of clue about the nature of the Primarch and Legion that you fanboy to death in every thread.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Khorne's Fist said:


> And yet he felt the need to bring his entire legion to face down Lorgar and his 50,000 sons. If he didn't think there might be a need to have them there, why not just turn up with his personal retinue, or whatever contingent would normally be on his flag ship? No, he felt that he had to out number the WBs, _just in case. _
> 
> The more I think about it the more it becomes clear that this is a major plot hole left by Abnett. Going on previous work it's blatantly obvious that he _had _planned for facing off against the WBs. It's a similar fuck up to McNeil's timeline mistake in TOD. Saying that the idea would be so absurd that a master strategist like Girlyman wouldn't ever contemplate formulating a plan for it is just plain stupid.





Khorne's Fist said:


> Jesus, it's like talking to a brick wall. Whether or not the Emperor ordered him to do it, whether or not the idea was absurd and almost treasonous to him, do you really think he'd go in there without a plan for taking on Lorgar and 50,000 SMs? If you choose to believe that, you really haven't any sort of clue about the nature of the Primarch and Legion that you fanboy to death in every thread.


You do realise the emperor ORDERED guilliman to send his WHOLE legion to burn monarchia to demonstrate to lorgar what real astartes look like right? Holy fug mate. Was guilliman preparing for a fight? Who the hell knows


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Garviel loken. said:


> You do realise the emperor ORDERED guilliman to send his WHOLE legion to burn monarchia to demonstrate to lorgar what real astartes look like right? Holy fug mate. Was guilliman preparing for a fight? Who the hell knows


Garviel's right guys.

Guilliman was only ordered to burn it to the ground, so there's no reason whatsoever as to why he'd expect to have a fight.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Vaz said:


> Garviel's right guys.
> 
> Guilliman was only ordered to burn it to the ground, so there's no reason whatsoever as to why he'd expect to have a fight.


And then lorgar, that foolosh bastard, had to kneel to guilliman and the emperor. 

And it's not like guilliman couldn't be expecting lorgar to be a bit feisty, but I don't think it permits him creating theoreticals on fighting other astartes, especially after lorgar was compliant


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Vaz said:


> there's no reason whatsoever as to why he'd expect to have a fight.


He might not expect it, but he certainly would have been prepared for it. 

"Right lads, we're gonna go in here, level one of Lorgar's greatest works, embarrass and prostrate him in front of his legion, and I'm pretty sure he won't lift a hand against us. Not sure about Malcador though. He might get it." Sorry, doesn't work for me. By his very nature he'd have come up with several plans to counter any action Lorgar might take within seconds of being given his orders. He wouldn't be able to stop himself. Things like that are at the very core of his being.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Khorne's Fist said:


> He might not expect it, but he certainly would have been prepared for it.
> 
> "Right lads, we're gonna go in here, level one of Lorgar's greatest works, embarrass and prostrate him in front of his legion, and I'm pretty sure he won't lift a hand against us. Not sure about Malcador though. He might get it." Sorry, doesn't work for me. By his very nature he'd have come up with several plans to counter any action Lorgar might take within seconds of being given his orders. He wouldn't be able to stop himself. Things like that are at the very core of his being.


And I agree to An extent. Lorgar is a loose cannon and guilliman may have been cautious, but I still don't think merits guilliman creating theoreticals on how to fight astartes. Yes this may be naive on GUILLIMANS part


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

But why would guilliman have prepared to fight though? He was only going to burn down the largest jewel in the Word Bearers crown of the most jealous and zealous of his brothers.

There is no rhyme or reason as to why he'd have thought that the Word Bearers would have attacked, because they're weak and slow and the worst astartes ever.

I'm embarrassed I'm having to be this overly obviously sarcastic too.

Fuck sake, it's less like arguing with a Brick wall, Brick walls at least have a purpose in life.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Vaz said:


> But why would guilliman have prepared to fight though? He was only going to burn down the largest jewel in the Word Bearers crown of the most jealous and zealous of his brothers.
> 
> There is no rhyme or reason as to why he'd have thought that the Word Bearers would have attacked, because they're weak and slow and the worst astartes ever.
> 
> ...


I'm aSsuming the whole brick wall thing was directed at me, and fine that's your opinion. But now I know your parents couldn't have been nothing more then gorillas, as no one could raise a child this badly. 

That or you have never had a gf.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

What you choose to find insult in is of no concern to me.

As for gorillas, unlikely, the balding would make me the unluckiest gorilla ever. Poor chap.

As for never having had a "gf", eh, I'm adult enough to type it out fully. But considering the maturity of your comebacks, I'm going to publicly apologise for giving shit to a 3 year old.

Now, please go play in the sand pit.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Vaz said:


> What you choose to find insult in is of no concern to me.
> 
> As for gorillas, unlikely, the balding would make me the unluckiest gorilla ever. Poor chap.
> 
> ...


You just made it 10 times worse for yourself hehe


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## Doom wolf (Oct 10, 2014)

C'mon boys ! Play nice, all of you.

For the matter currently at hand, I think both party has a point : if the emperor would have expected a fight at Monarchia, he would have been escorted by the Space Wolves.

But his escort had to evactuate many whole city, quickly and rather cleanly, a work that the wolves were unsuited for. 

Another point is concerning Aeonid Thiel, who, when the battle of Calth Began, as already on censure BUT about to be interviewed by Guilliman. Who know what would have happen if Thiel had the opportunity to defend his POV with Guilliman ?

Maybe the matter was about to be treated by Guilliman, but too slowly. 

But the fact that the Primarch had to have someone else thinking of it for himself is a little beyond me. 

But then again, micro-managing the Ultramar Empire, more than two hundred thousands ultramarines, their military units and their fleets while on a great crusade can be a titanic work even fr a Primarch I guess.

I always tough that one of the reason some stupid decision was made by the emperor was that he had a lack of empathy as much as waaaay TOO MUCH works....


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Doom wolf said:


> C'mon boys ! Play nice, all of you.
> 
> For the matter currently at hand, I think both party has a point : if the emperor would have expected a fight at Monarchia, he would have been escorted by the Space Wolves.
> 
> ...


Apologies for my behavior.

I honestly dont think Guilliman would have been to hard on Thiel...I mean, in the novel, Guilliman was suppose to deal with thiel, and when he finally talked with him, he totally shrugged off the whole Censure thing, and instead talked to thiel about Lorgar. 

In the short audio "Strategem" Thiel inspires guilliman, and makes guilliman realize that all of his lifes doctrine had been flawed.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Doom wolf said:


> C'mon boys ! Play nice, all of you.


This.


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## deepsix81 (Dec 24, 2011)

Loathe as I am to jump into the middle of this, Monarchia = Emperor and Malcador and not Horus, right? I feel like Horus didn't have much of a hand in this at all.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Vaz said:


> That still makes no sense.
> 
> To identify your strengths, you also need to identify your weaknesses. Take for example Power Armour. They know that the weak points are the visors and joints because there's no plating there.
> 
> ...


I agree. I think many in the series try to depict the loyalist loyalist as innocent and undoubtly loyal to the Imperium and Emperor. _Horus Rising_ showed Horus' concerns about having the legions in line. It just seems weird that at one point we have many legions who are skeptical and jealous of the new Warmaster and then, all of a sudden, they don't know what the fuck is going on.

The Ultramarines not knowing that is pretty absurd. They embarrassed the Word Bearers and played it so coy in that novel that it does stir my guts. 

The realistic view of the legions, which goes back from the beginning should really have been that all the legions were skeptical of one another, and even when they chose sides. Thats absolutely realistic, and I believe we are seeing some of that especially in the traitors but even the Lion and Gilliman seem to be falling into that.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

ckcrawford said:


> I agree. I think many in the series try to depict the loyalist loyalist as innocent and undoubtly loyal to the Imperium and Emperor. _Horus Rising_ showed Horus' concerns about having the legions in line. It just seems weird that at one point we have many legions who are skeptical and jealous of the new Warmaster and then, all of a sudden, they don't know what the fuck is going on.
> 
> The Ultramarines not knowing that is pretty absurd. They embarrassed the Word Bearers and played it so coy in that novel that it does stir my guts.
> 
> The realistic view of the legions, which goes back from the beginning should really have been that all the legions were skeptical of one another, and even when they chose sides. Thats absolutely realistic, and I believe we are seeing some of that especially in the traitors but even the Lion and Gilliman seem to be falling into that.


Tho, it is stated in KNF that guilliman was happy and understanding of horus becoming warmaster. So why would Guilliman think that, Horus, who he believes a noble and worthy commander, would betray him and the Imperium? 

And sure, Guilliman wasnt fond of lorgar, alpharius, the khan ect, but i doubt he would have thought they would turn against him, esspecially when he wasnt aware of chaos.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Garviel loken. said:


> Tho, it is stated in KNF that guilliman was happy and understanding of horus becoming warmaster. So why would Guilliman think that, Horus, who he believes a noble and worthy commander, would betray him and the Imperium?
> 
> And sure, Guilliman wasnt fond of lorgar, alpharius, the khan ect, but i doubt he would have thought they would turn against him, esspecially when he wasnt aware of chaos.


Could be jealousy, or worse... hubris. 

I could see Guilliman thinking his ideology to be perfect and right for all mankind... After all, he almost went to war with what the series describes as the most honest of the Primarchs... Dorn. 

When an individual is set in believing his doctrine, ideology, etc... are the best... When that individual "knows" they are the best, they will stop at nothing to enforce it upon everyone else. The Emperor of mankind did this mind you.


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

ckcrawford said:


> Could be jealousy, or worse... hubris.
> 
> I could see Guilliman thinking his ideology to be perfect and right for all mankind... After all, he almost went to war with what the series describes as the most honest of the Primarchs... Dorn.
> 
> When an individual is set in believing his doctrine, ideology, etc... are the best... When that individual "knows" they are the best, they will stop at nothing to enforce it upon everyone else. The Emperor of mankind did this mind you.


Good points. 

I personally believe guilliman to be the best leader(even above the emperor). He has all the qualities imo. He cares for his sons, can surely build an empire, and in general cares for the well being of humans. Him being the only primarch to have an actual family makes himself very human


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## Doom wolf (Oct 10, 2014)

Garviel loken. said:


> Good points.
> 
> I personally believe guilliman to be the best leader(even above the emperor). He has all the qualities imo. He cares for his sons, can surely build an empire, and in general cares for the well being of humans. Him being the only primarch to have an actual family makes himself very human


I tend to agree with your POV.

IMHO, I think the emperor choosed Horus as Warmaster because Horus was truly competent, but also because he knew Horus would be hurt _a lot_ if he didn't choose the Lunar Wolves's primarch.

Alas, by that time, he had already stomped the ego and the feelings of Lorgar...


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## Garviel loken. (Jun 8, 2014)

Doom wolf said:


> I tend to agree with your POV.
> 
> IMHO, I think the emperor choosed Horus as Warmaster because Horus was truly competent, but also because he knew Horus would be hurt _a lot_ if he didn't choose the Lunar Wolves's primarch.
> 
> Alas, by that time, he had already stomped the ego and the feelings of Lorgar...


It is mentioned in Know no fear that it was only ever between guilliman and horus for warmaster, but Guilliman already had his own empire to look after. He had already evolved beyond warmaster.


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