# Primarch vs Harlequin's Kiss



## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

So what would happen if a Primarch was struck with a Harlequin's Kiss? The weapon seems so fool proof in its ability to kill anything and everything. 100m of wiring that floods into the victims system, which then lashes in every direction, slicing everything in the persons body. Seems like a Primarch killer to me. Aside from Vulkan I suppose, but it would certainly incapacitate him. 

I suppose the true question would be, could a Harlequin land the blow?


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Another question would be, what couldn't a Harlequin's Kiss kill? 100m of wire, that would kill even a Hive Tyrant. Could anything survive the strike?


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

SoL Berzerker said:


> Another question would be, what couldn't a Harlequin's Kiss kill? 100m of wire, that would kill even a Hive Tyrant. Could anything survive the strike?


I think anything made out of flesh and blood would suffer grievously from the weapon, but I think also that there is a very good chance of primarchs actualy surviving it, considering their extraordinary healing abilities, it might just take a while for them to fully recover.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

But it quite literally turns the victim into soup. Your body fluids leak out of every hole in your body. The only reason I say Vulkan would live is because he is a perpetual. Aside from him I think they would all die.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Does the Harlequin have the physical strength required to punch the weapon through the primarch's armour? And even if he can penetrate the armour, can he drive it even further into the flesh?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

I haven't read eldar dex but I thought the weapon didn't have AP, well aware fluff=/=rules, but theres a basic similarity.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

I'm not trying to argue that a Harlequin could take a Primarch in a fight, of course not. I'm arguing, that if 100 Harlequins rushed a Primarch, and one of those 100 got a lucky hit with their Harlequin's Kiss, it would kill them. Primarchs can take getting stabbed, shot, and blasted by a titan weapon, but I honestly do not think they could survive a strike from the Harlequin's Kiss. It doesn't matter how strong your regenerative powers are, if your entire inner structure gets turned into a soup-like consistency, there is no coming back... Again, unless you are Vulkan.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

SoL Berzerker said:


> I'm not trying to argue that a Harlequin could take a Primarch in a fight, of course not. I'm arguing, that if 100 Harlequins rushed a Primarch, and one of those 100 got a lucky hit with their Harlequin's Kiss, it would kill them. Primarchs can take getting stabbed, shot, and blasted by a titan weapon, but I honestly do not think they could survive a strike from the Harlequin's Kiss. It doesn't matter how strong your regenerative powers are, if your entire inner structure gets turned into a soup-like consistency, there is no coming back... Again, unless you are Vulkan.


their inner structure much like their outer structure is a lot tougher then that of an average human or an astartes tho, what guaranty is there that it will have the same effect on a primarch as it has on an unmodified human or space marine?


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

That's a good point - does the wire within a Harlequin's Kiss even cut through a Primarch's interior?


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

or how far would it get? for all we know the momentum would be so badly stalled after entry/the first organ or 2, that it wont be able to penetrate/cut anything else doing such a low amount of damage that its neglectable during battle depending on aim.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Considering the Primarchs can take plasma blasts and recover from it, a mere wire whipping seems like nothing.

But in the forgeworld primarch rules, they all come with 'It will not die' and 'Eternal Warrior'. The later renders them completely imune to instant kill attacks, only taking a single wound instead.


And Morty takes the primarch resilience to eleven.
Preternatural Resilience 
Mortarion re-rolls failed Toughness tests and "It Will Not Die!" rolls
Automatically passes any dangerous terrain
Any weapon that wounds on a flat dice roll (for example poison) will only hurt Mortarion on a 6


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

This is not a mere wire whipping, this is 100 meters of razor wire being injected into their bodies. 

As for the momentum and force of the injection, if the force is great enough to push out 100 meters of wire, and then retract it in mere seconds, I think that the force behind it is quite great. 

Taking a plasma shot from the outside is very different from being cut apart on a microscopic level from the inside. Think about how thin this wire is, 100 meters of it can fit lightly on the wrist of a Harlequin, it does not matter how thick or resilient the bones are of a Prmarch, this wire is so small that it can pass through just about anything. 

In terms of the tabletop, it is AP- but has Rending. But the description mentions that it instantly kills the victim. It would be much too powerful to give every model in a 10 man squad instant death, so rending would have to suffice. In every case I have seen it used in the lore, it always results in an instant death.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

SoL Berzerker said:


> This is not a mere wire whipping, this is 100 meters of razor wire being injected into their bodies.
> 
> As for the momentum and force of the injection, if the force is great enough to push out 100 meters of wire, and then retract it in mere seconds, I think that the force behind it is quite great.
> 
> ...


so what to take into account fluffwise:
momentum/pushing strength of the monofillament wire

primarch forged armour, from IDK what kind of material.
the outside toughness of the primarch biology
the bodymass between the wire and the inner organs
the inside(or organ) toughness of the primarch biology

I honestly dont give it a whole lot of chance of getting even past one organ... there is an insane amount of muscle between that wire and its destination compared to what it was most likely designed for.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I don't think the Harlequin's kiss is all as powerful as it sounds to be honest. 100m of this wire in a device the size of someone's wrist means it will be a very very thin wire, razor edged or not. I can understand such a weapon being lethal to humans, eldar, tau, and probably orks. 

But astartes physiology is a step above all these. Remember, the device works optimally when it is actually punctured through the victim's skin so that the wire unfurls inside and hits the internal organs and arteries directly. But even then, we're talking varying degrees of density here, organs, fluids and bone will all offer different levels of resistance no matter how sharp something is, especially when that something is so small. A non puncturing hit probably only results in superficial external cuts. 

Tyranids are on a different level altogether, most of them have endo AND exoskeletons. I believe the above mentioned Hive Tyrant would easily survive. 

For that matter, I believe the Primarch will also be fine. Wounded probably, but not fatally. Unless you're gonna hit him in the eye socket with that thing. :grin:


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

Serpion5 said:


> For that matter, I believe the Primarch will also be fine. Wounded probably, but not fatally. Unless you're gonna hit him in the eye socket with that thing. :grin:


now THAT would be a lucky strike :laugh:


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Fulgrim killed an Avatar of Khaine. Take that in for a second. That's the greatest warrior the eldar have other than being able to manifest the war god themselves. Since that's not likely thanks to Khorne, the Avatar is the best. Therefore, no, I don't believe a Harlequin would be able to defeat a primarch. It's a deadly weapon, but then again so is almost every weapon the eldar and dark eldar have.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> Fulgrim killed an Avatar of Khaine. Take that in for a second. That's the greatest warrior the eldar have other than being able to manifest the war god themselves. Since that's not likely thanks to Khorne, the Avatar is the best. Therefore, no, I don't believe a Harlequin would be able to defeat a primarch. It's a deadly weapon, but then again so is almost every weapon the eldar and dark eldar have.


I am not saying that a Harlequin could beat a Primarch in a fight. I am saying that if a Harlequin were to get a lucky punch on a Primarch, the weapon would kill the Primarch.


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## Haskanael (Jul 5, 2011)

SoL Berzerker said:


> I am not saying that a Harlequin could beat a Primarch in a fight. I am saying that if a Harlequin were to get a lucky punch on a Primarch, the weapon would kill the Primarch.


that would have to be an extremely lucky punch, and even then its iffy.


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## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

You also need to remember these aren't just normal warriors or even normal Eldar, thery're Harliquins. Some are taking it into account that the harliquins is aiming straight at the chest where some of the strongest armour is. Harliquins are super quick and sneaky they would go for the weakest armour or where there is no armour. Groups of harliquins are known to be able to take down greater daemons. Also the harliquins kiss is meant to take on necrons and has been for many years before the imperium. Now I do reailise that a primarch is tougher then anything else around but you taking about releasing a razor sharp 100m wire that cuttes and slashes flesh to pieces. I don't think it would kill a primarch but it would fatelly wound him and if it went through a primarch head it would certinally kill him imo.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Fulgrim took a Raven Guard sniper bullet to the head and walked away just fine, Fabius Bile digging it out from his brainpan shortly after. The primarch intentionally had let himself be hit to play on Peturabo's heartstrings.

But I restate, their rules have them imune to instant death attacks. So Harlequins trying to toy with them is in for a quite rude suprise. The Emperor crafted his sons well.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

I guess I dint know how to think about primarch resilience, because I the one hand they are incredibly tough, but on the other more than half of them are dead. And something killed them.

On the topic of the game harlequin's kiss . . . It isn't full of "razor wire" or "sharp wire", it's full of mono-filament wire. My recollection of the description is that the wire is a single molecule or atom wide and cuts by passing between the bonds of other atoms/molecules. At least in the old fluff it could basically dice anything it touched armor, flesh, or supernatural being.

I don't know if any of that has changed though. 

I'm not really taking a side, I just don't know how to think about primarch resilience.


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## Zakath (Feb 23, 2011)

I'm sorry for the off topic but.. Intentionally taking a sniper round to the head and "walking away fine" must be the single most idiotic piece of GW fluff I have heard. I know that Primarchs are supposed to be further enhanced by esoteric Warp magicks but there seems to be nothing capable of harming them. Why didn't the Primarchs conquer star system all by themselves, why trouble the astartes legions at all..

EDIT: Since harlequin's kisses can liquify greater daemons and hive tyrants, I think it's reasonable to assume it liquifies primarchs.
Since a Lucifer Black can score a hit on a primarch (Legion), I think it's more than reasonable to assume harlequins can score hits against the primarchs.
Since reason has very little play in primarch (or much other astartes) fluff I think this is a moot question


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Zakath said:


> I'm sorry for the off topic but.. Intentionally taking a sniper round to the head and "walking away fine" must be the single most idiotic piece of GW fluff I have heard. I know that Primarchs are supposed to be further enhanced by esoteric Warp magicks but there seems to be nothing capable of harming them. Why didn't the Primarchs conquer star system all by themselves, why trouble the astartes legions at all..


Theres only 18 primarchs after all. Look at the fate of Rogal Dorn, superior numbers did him in. And the aformentioned scene was in the early parts of Angel Exterminatus.

Decapitation did in both Ferrus Manus and Konrad Curze. Horus strangled Sanguinius.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

I heard from my friend that an actual starship fell on one of the primarchs ( I think it was Horus, no idea and my memory quite honestly sucks.) and pierced his primary heart. Supposedly, the primarch in question just pushed it away and got up. So yeah..... 

As for sniper bullet to the head...... It's not really overstretched. If a bullet in the head was all it took to take down a primarch, then Emperor's dealing with Chaos gods and super advanced genetic manipulation would be a fail , since just about any assassin could have killed them then. 

In thousand sons though, one of the xeno titans aimed his weapon arm at Magnus and probably would have killed him if not heavily wound were it not for Phosis T'kar's psychic barrier/shield or whatever it was.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

And a warhound titan stepped on Angron, but he held it up with sheer rage even as his muscles popped and tore to buy Lorgar time to get clear. And Lorgar was burned badly by plasma blasts.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> Fulgrim took a Raven Guard sniper bullet to the head and walked away just fine, Fabius Bile digging it out from his brainpan shortly after. The primarch intentionally had let himself be hit to play on Peturabo's heartstrings.
> 
> But I restate, their rules have them imune to instant death attacks. So Harlequins trying to toy with them is in for a quite rude suprise. The Emperor crafted his sons well.


He took a bullet to the head, with 85% of his brain still in tact. However, if this wire went into his head, his brain would be turned into water, with the rest of the wire proceeding to shoot down his neck, performing the same actions to his spinal column and arteries. 

The Primarchs are immune to instant death, but I can think of many ways to one hit a Primarch. One clear example would be decapitation, using Ferrus Manus as my example. Yes he suffered other wounds, but one single strike is what actually killed him. As with decapitation, the Harlequin's Kiss leaves no time for regeneration. 

And like The Irish Commissar said, the Harlequins would aim for the vulnerable neck and head of a Primarch, I have yet to read of them wearing helmets aside from Vulkan. A shot to the head would probably kill them. 

If I'm wrong about the Primarchs not wearing helmets, please correct me, but I do not believe that I am.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

Well, Vulkan is a perpetual meaning nothing is effectively able to kill him. I wondef if there'll be more primarchs revealed to be perpetuals in the upcoming hh novels.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

The Irish Commissar said:


> Also the harliquins kiss is meant to take on necrons and has been for many years before the imperium.


Woah, sauce on this? I'd have thought it'd be *least* useful against Necrons, being as they have no flesh and necrodermis/living metal is pretty insane as a material.


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## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

LordOftheNight said:


> I wondef if there'll be more primarchs revealed to be perpetuals in the upcoming hh novels.



Please no. Vulkan being a perpetual is enough bullshit already...


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## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

MidnightSun said:


> Woah, sauce on this? I'd have thought it'd be *least* useful against Necrons, being as they have no flesh and necrodermis/living metal is pretty insane as a material.


Which is what I would have thought except in all the fluff harliquins guard the webway and have sent armies of their own sent against necrons to stop them reaching the black library. They do use the harliquins kiss against them. It's supposely able to tear through metal, flesh and bone. If it was ineffective they wouldnt use them.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The Irish Commissar said:


> Which is what I would have thought except in all the fluff harliquins guard the webway and have sent armies of their own sent against necrons to stop them reaching the black library. They do use the harliquins kiss against them. It's supposely able to tear through metal, flesh and bone. If it was ineffective they wouldnt use them.


Do you have a source that says the Harlequins specifically use their Harlie Kiss weapons against the necrons? Or that they were made for this purpose? 

Because if not, you're making an assumption.


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## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

Serpion5 said:


> Do you have a source that says the Harlequins specifically use their Harlie Kiss weapons against the necrons? Or that they were made for this purpose?
> 
> Because if not, you're making an assumption.


I probably am making an assumption, i'll have a look around my old books and see what I can find. Does anyone have that old harliquin codex lying around.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Kreuger said:


> I guess I dint know how to think about patriarch resilience, because I the one hand they are incredibly tough, but on the other more than half of them are dead. And something killed them.
> 
> On the topic of the game harlequin's kiss . . . It isn't full of "razor wire" or "sharp wire", it's full of mono-filament wire. My recollection of the description is that the wire is a single molecule or atom wide and cuts by passing between the bonds of other atoms/molecules. At least in the old fluff it could basically dice anything it touched armor, flesh, or supernatural being.
> 
> ...


A Space Marine's combat knife also has a mono-molecular edge, yet you don't see those chopping through power armour etc like there's nothing there.

Food for thought.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Rems said:


> A Space Marine's combat knife also has a mono-molecular edge, yet you don't see those chopping through power armour etc like there's nothing there.
> 
> Food for thought.


Exactly, this is similar to the point I was making earlier. If the Harlequin Kiss wire is a simple uncurling mechanism, how much force is really behind it? Enough to shred through human flesh perhaps, but we know beings like astartes, primarchs and almost everything else in 40k for that matter are made of far sterner stuff. 

And since others keep bringing up game stats and rules, I'll point out that these weapons only match their users' (rather low) strength and only benefit from their apparent lethality on a one in six chance. :wink:


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Exactly, this is similar to the point I was making earlier. If the Harlequin Kiss wire is a simple uncurling mechanism, how much force is really behind it? Enough to shred through human flesh perhaps, but we know beings like astartes, primarchs and almost everything else in 40k for that matter are made of far sterner stuff.
> 
> And since others keep bringing up game stats and rules, I'll point out that these weapons only match their users' (rather low) strength and only benefit from their apparent lethality on a one in six chance. :wink:


I really feel that the Kiss is toned down quite a bit for the tabletop, there are several cases in Path of the Incubus and Path of the Archon where Motley, a Harlequin, insta-kills Incubi, Archons, and Kabalites alike. Even killing through the Incubi armor, which has a 3+ armor save. If you could make a squad of 10 Harlequins where all of them had instant death it would be massively OP. 

The reason you do not see Space Marine combat knives shredding through armor is because only the edge is that sharp, the rest of it is not. The entire wire in the Harlequins Kiss is that thin. A combat knife would lose a lot of its power when the thicker parts of it start creating friction with the power armor. If the entire blade was so thin, it would go through armor, but also be highly ineffective because it would snap. The Harlequins Kiss does not suffer that disadvantage because it is flexible and is meant to be bent for maximum damage.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I remain unconvinced. 

Primarch skin can deflect bolter rounds. Can a harlequin punch with greater force than that?

Remember too that a primarchs physiology is a mystery to even the apothecaries of the legions, those most familiar with something approaching primarch physiology. They have a unique internal structure only superficially similair to a humans or a space marines. 

Ultimately it takes something very special to kill a primarch as they're supernatural beings. Made with warp craft they're largely immune to mundane weapons and effects. The things that have proven lethal to them are other supernatural things; warp powers, deamon weapons, other primarchs. 

I don't doubt it would hurt them, but i don't think it would kill them. Aside from all the above there's the fact it's going to be damn difficult to land a hit or penetrate the primarch with the weapon and once the harlequin does the primarch's hardly going to just sit there and let it liquify him. The primarch's going to rip the harlequin's arm off before too much damage is done.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

It takes a fraction of a second for the Kiss to uncoil inside the victim. The weapon does not hinder the Harlequins speed in battle. 

But I do see your point, although slightly exaggerated. Roboute Gulliman was severely injured by many bolted rounds, his skin didn't do much to deflect the rounds. Primarchs are highly resilient and have a rather unknown physiology. 

At this point I can go either way with it. On one hand you have the incredible lethality of the weapon, and on the other the incredible durability of a Primarch. A shot to the head I am convinced is a kill, but elsewhere in the body I would say that it would not kill.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Even among the primarchs there was ranks of sturdiness, with Mortarion ranking in the absolute top of defensive ability to soak up punishment.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> Even among the primarchs there was ranks of sturdiness, with Mortarion ranking in the absolute top of defensive ability to soak up punishment.


Over Vulkan?


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

SoL Berzerker said:


> On one hand you have the incredible lethality of the weapon, and on the other the incredible durability of a Primarch.


It sounds like it does come down to the irresistable force vs. the unmoveable object as far as arguments are concerned. Unless we get a story of the Khan being found and fought in the Webway by a Harlequin, who just so happens to use the Kiss, we'll just be speculating till the cows come home.

On a more practical basis, I agree with you that if one of these things did get loose inside a Primarch, then he's toast. All the sterner stuff and not knowing their physiology stuff is just BS. Uber 40K weapons can kill a Primarch, and this certainly ranks in that category. Perhaps if a Harlequin masked the Kiss as a piece of toiletpaper, boy wouldn't that be a surprise!


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Perhaps if a Harlequin masked the Kiss as a piece of toiletpaper, boy wouldn't that be a surprise!


I cringed a bit on that one.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

SoL Berzerker said:


> I am not saying that a Harlequin could beat a Primarch in a fight. I am saying that if a Harlequin were to get a lucky punch on a Primarch, the weapon would kill the Primarch.



Seeing as how that would not work with at least one primarch, I'd say that is a gross assumption. We don't know who else could be a perpetual or something crazy. The primarchs genetic abilities are a mystery. Fulgrim killed an Avatar which could destroy a lot of Harlequins. The Avatars are the equivalent of a primarch level characters. You're also assuming the biology of a primarch could not heal instantly from internal damage. The only thing we've seen defeat their biology has been warp poison (Horus and Gulliman) and a decapitation (Ferrus Manus and Kurze). Now this weapons seems dangerous but getting through primarch armor, speed, and skill will be dangerous. I don't see a Harlequin getting this done to be real with you. It's the same argument of the Nemesis novel with the Execution force. A Vindicate could kill a primarch, if he got the shot. How likely is that?


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Deadeye776 said:


> Seeing as how that would not work with at least one primarch, I'd say that is a gross assumption. We don't know who else could be a perpetual or something crazy. The primarchs genetic abilities are a mystery. Fulgrim killed an Avatar which could destroy a lot of Harlequins. The Avatars are the equivalent of a primarch level characters. You're also assuming the biology of a primarch could not heal instantly from internal damage. The only thing we've seen defeat their biology has been warp poison (Horus and Gulliman) and a decapitation (Ferrus Manus and Kurze). Now this weapons seems dangerous but getting through primarch armor, speed, and skill will be dangerous. I don't see a Harlequin getting this done to be real with you. It's the same argument of the Nemesis novel with the Execution force.* A Vindicate could kill a primarch, if he got the shot.* How likely is that?


Given that Fulgrim survived a sniper's bullet to the brain pan i'm not so sure that's true. 

Which of course speaks volumes to a primarch's durability and no doubt miraculous biology.


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