# Vampire Counts/ Dark Elves viability and power level?



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

I'd like to start collecting a WHFB army again after many years. I used to have a 4,000 pts Dwarf army, but I had to store it at a friend, and long story short, he traded them (and my 2,5K of WH40K Eldar) to some kid for the new Chaos codex.

My heartbreak (and fist ache, after giving him what's what for) is just about over, and I need something to fall back on if the new Tau codex ends up suckage.

I'm no power gamer, I don't play armies just because they're "top tier" or similar, but I do want the assurance that my army is not completely bottom of the barrel, like Tyranids and Necrons are now in 40K.

I am interested in 2 armies. Vampire Counts and Dark Elves. How good are they compared to the others? What are their strengths and weaknesses?

(Which army is considered the best - and if you say Lizardmen I will cry.)


----------



## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Well, the one big thing about 8th ed fantasy is that *any* given army can win vs. any other army... Still, some armies have a much easier time of it due to a better unit synergy, more varied options and/or multiple build options.

I'd say that personally the 8th ed power scale looks like;
1) Most Compatable:
- Warriors of Chaos, Lizardmen (sorry!), Skaven, Daemons of Chaos.

2) Well Off & Decently Flexable:
- Tomb Kings, Orcs & Gobbos, High Elves, Dark Elves, Beastmen, Empire, Dwarfs.

3) Very Restrictive Build to Stay Viable:
- Vampire Counts, Bretonnia, Ogre Kingdoms, Wood Elves

So, with your two choices you've got to look at the following;
a) Dark Elves: Their pros being they're a highly flexable list with almost all of their unit options being well suited towards the mechanics of 8th edition. There's lots of flavour and different list building options, so it won't get boring playing the evil ones! Plus, if you really like monstrous stuff, then dark elves are one of main 'monster mash' armies with options for things like manticores, dragons, harpies, hydras & knights riding velociraptors!
Their cons being that the army is mainly still metal with only 2 plastic Core options + 1 plastic Special option, so they're going to be a costly army to build! Also, being T3 elves means you will lose alot of your troops in 8th, but you're still considered to be an 'elite infantry' force with the added punch of plenty of monsters & hitty cavarly!

b) Vampire Counts: Their pros being that they have lots of lovely plastic treament! With 4 Core options + 1 Special option, it's easy to build a good sized army out of mainly plastic sets... (Black Knights can also be considered a 2nd 'plastic' Special option as the VC bits kitbash fairly well with empire or bret knights) It can also be a very annoying army for your opponent since your guys just keep coming back in the magic phase & sometimes even the combat phase too! (as we have a pair of magical weapons that can res models!)
The big draw back though, is that VC's are exceptionally restricted in their list building options should you want a bit more of a competitive twist... Our book is easily one of the worst piles of crap GW has ever produced, with no internal balance keeping things in check. We we a powerhouse army under 7th, as we were the ultimite min/max army! 8th however is the anti-undead edition, and due to how poorly designed our book was, it's kinda fallen flat on its face right now with every option bar Vampire lords, wight kings, ghouls & grave guard being horrifically over-costed.

Now that's not to say that VC's are a doomed army you'll never have fun with! They can be alot of fun for sure, you just have to realise that the book was wirten by that complete idiot Gav 'what's play-testing' Thrope and ranks amongst his biggest fuck-ups of all time! (only the 6th ed dark elf book beat us out!)
Just realise that should you choce VC's, the odds are indeed against you when not playing the optimum list build, and all the super spells will kick your face in! But it is always greatly satisfying to win with an 'underdog' army too - especially when you throw competitive-arsehatness out the window and play the units you simply like!!!

Hope this helps,
Cheers!
Stitch - a VC player determined to prove that skeleton armies can win!


----------



## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Thanks for the great write up!

I forgot to mention I always wanted a Skaven army, just haven't been any sort of priority because I don't like the look of their war machines. Are they usable without any bells, warp cannons or wheels?

Seems with the two I originally wanted I have a choice of damnations haha. Either pay out the butt for an all metal army (no thanks! did that already with 4K points of Dwarfs) or severely limit myself with VC's.

I do like Skaven though. Just unsure whether they can play like I want them to. Is a Horde type army any good with few special units/ heroes and no machines?


----------



## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Skaven are a good choice, and they can work with pretty much any kind of list you might cleaver-cunning devise. Their book is easily the 'power book' of 8th as there's no 'bad' choices available to them! Their (many-many) strong pts being;
- Vast numbers of cheap troops. (especially slaves)
- Solid Ld with their 'strength in numbers' rule + the 8th ed buffs to the general & battle standard bearer (and we can lead from the back where it's safer to get away!)
- Lots of variety as each major clan has at least 1 option in each part of the army list bar the Lords section. (though clan eshin doesn't have a rare choice, but who's honestly counting?!)
- The ability to shoot into combat. (just send more slaves...)
- Awsome shooting with poisoned slings, throwing weapons, jezzails (yay sniper rats!), poisoned wind globes, poisoned wind mortar, rattling gun & warpfire fire-fire! And that's all *before* you get into the warmachines!:shok: (but don't trust clan skryre's (re)liability)
- Very destrcutive magic. (for everyone involved too!)
- Decent combat potential. Similar to VC's, skaven will win fights by grinding down their opposition in place outright slaughtering them like dark elves or chaos will! (but hellpit abominations can mop up both sides for you!)
- The best backstory in all of fantasy! (we're skaven!)

Just remember that with skaven, your amazing weapons will explode, (quite specatularly), and your spells will cause massive devastation, (to everyone), and your units will charge gloriously, (in the opposite direction), and your general will wipe the floor with his counter-parts, (by having someone else take their place), and your plans for world domination will never fail (but your useless lackies obviously will!!!)

See, the game is perfect from a skaven perspective!:biggrin:



As for VC's, like I said, it's not 'the end of the world' senario with them, they simply require alot of forethought & skill to wield effectively, but they have a higher number of more unfavourable match-ups than a number of other armies do...

Cheers!


----------



## Ultra1 (Mar 10, 2011)

i have both DE and VC and enjoy the DE way more because of their versitility on the tabletop. VC tend to always have lots of crap troops and 1 or 2 rediculously good units that have to do absolutely everything during the game. The DE have a much better selection to choose from. i'd pick them any day of the week. i'm actually planing to sell my fully painted VC army. so i guess i should tell you to buy it because they're awesome huh?


----------



## Farseer Darvaleth (Nov 15, 2009)

Vampire Counts were.... _slapped_ a little by 8th. But they are by no means dead! (EDIT: Well, they are dead, but you get what I mean)

I would suggest getting the VC side of the story. Head over to Carpe Noctem Forum (I think it's www.vampirecounts.net) and ask for the lay-down. They're all helpful, and you might even see me there! :laugh:


----------



## maomolin (May 4, 2008)

VC have been heavily restricted as to what carried over as 'good'. Common theme seems 2x large blocks of ghouls and 2x block of grave guard (poisoned attacks and killing blow...woot!)

I am suprised to hear DElf players still happy as well. While not a bad armybook, I haven't really heard or seen an elf army of any variety be considered top-rung since 8th first hit. Which is kinda sad as I love Dark Elf models and High Elf rules... may have to make a hidge-podge elf army ^.-

Skaven are fun, I do think taking a few little warmachines will brighten your day. General perspective is its one of the best to go with simply because of the Isle of Blood starter has them and High Elves (High what?) in it.


----------



## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

maomolin said:


> I am suprised to hear DElf players still happy as well. While not a bad armybook, I haven't really heard or seen an elf army of any variety be considered top-rung since 8th first hit. Which is kinda sad as I love Dark Elf models and High Elf rules... may have to make a hidge-podge elf army ^.-


DE's are still quite nasty... Hydras are easily 40-50pts too cheap, the 'pendant of win' lord on dark pegie w/crown of command is the game's ultimite tarpit. Their shooting is ace, plus race-wide hatered means they'll still hit quite hard.
Warriors are likely a point or two under-costed, plus they've gained the same spear rules as their high elf cousins too! Dark magic is devastating, as is being able to cast with upto 12 dice per spell...
Add to that magic items like the sacrifical dagger and the dark elves are still plenty solid!

Even high elves are pretty damn competitive! Teclis is the game's most broken model... PG w/world dragon banner is pretty much an unmovable tarpit without access to things like a chosenstar. Sea Guard became a terrifying core option since it combines the best of both shooting + defensive spear hedge. (imagine 51, S8, ASF attacks from a single mindrazzor spell...:shok
ASF is broken on high elves to boot, as it's basically giving them 'better hatered', yet at the old 7th ed cost! (so all HE units are effectively undercosted now!)

VC's got the shortest stick of every army in 8th! (our tomb king cousins are getting their fix as we speak)
Fear is near-useless for almost all of our units. Step-up + Unstable means our core especially is easily the most over-costed & worthless pile of crap in the game. Ghouls only get by due to their 2 poisoned attacks & T4. Our rares are expensive, but suffer when you try to support them as the rest of the army is so terribad.
Necros & wight kings gained, but Lords are vulnerable, while thralls are a huge waste of pts in the end due to being forced to pay for un-needed abilities. (and having to pay upto about 4x the cost of basic equipment as compared to every other damn army!!!)
Thus, VC's work with only 1 build; ghoul spam + regen gravestar. Anything else is just ment for purely 'friendly' games now...

Cheers!


----------

