# What are the Primarchs up to?



## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

In a moment of boredom I found myself musing on what the loyalist primarchs have been doing for around ten thousand years. Obviously Sanguinus, Guilliman and Ferrus Manus are pretty down for the count but at the very least Corax, Khan, and Leman Russ left of their own free will and Russ did promise to return. Add to that you possibly have vulkan and, according to some accounts, Dorn. 

I am interested to hear thoughts on what they might be doing that prevents them from returning since a single primarch (like Dorn or Russ) could put the Imperium in a MUCH better position to defeat all the various enemies out there. 

This is of course hard to base on any fluff but going off of their personalities and history any educated guess is better than nothing. 

HAve at!:grin:


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Well, the Khan is probably a bit preoccupied with being, in the webway. There isn't exactly a map to that place, and it's somewhat full of, Eldar. They tend to not take too kindly to, humans, especially massive warp based beings of untold destruction. 

And these weren't even the nice Eldar that sometimes help the old Mon-Keigh. These are the mean old "we just loooove to torture people" Eldar. 

But on the of chance he survived, I have always sort of hoped that Cegorach has him in some kind of stasis or has him in a safe place and is using him or working with him to produce the ultimate plan for the Rhana Dandra or something equally cool. Not very refined I know, but just something awesome like that, some kind of master Eldar-harlequinn plan. 

As for the others, no comment as of yet, to be honest I don't know whether I want Russ to come back so Magnus can have another go at him, or whether I just want him to fade away into obscurity. I suppose my favorite scenario for that would be that he died and Magnus knows he is dead so he can laugh at all the Wolves.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

:good:
Yeah, I recalled that he had headed in there on one of his hunts. Alas his character is so sketchy that I am rather ambivalent to him so far. 

Oh come now, you know you want the Crimson King to break the Wolf King's back and see how he likes it! :grin:

What of the others though? I vaguely recall some throw away line that even Ferrus Manus isn't dead but actually "sleeping" on Mars. After reading more scenes with Corax I feel like he would be building his forces in the shadows to strike the Enemy legions when least expected. For that matter Dorn (assuming you buy his survival and rationalize him disappearing without is hands) would almost certainly try to build up a large force to aid the Imperium (possibly hidden by the Black Templar's large crusade fleets)

I like to imagine Russ fighting endlessly on some kind of world devoted to Khorne alongside the 13th company

Vulkan....yeah, I got nothing.


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## redmapa (Nov 9, 2011)

Russ and Corax are lost in the warp only able to return when Chaos consumes all AKA the wolftime..

Khan is lost in the webway

Everyone else is dead.. I like to think that Alpharius has infiltrated the Adeptus Terra and is still secretly sabotaging or helping Imperial efforts while Omegon has infiltrated Chaos..


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Russ is not lost as was said by the 13th Company. They say he'll return when he's ready to return. Also Corax, who knows what he's doing but I don't think he's dead or lost. He went into the eye and with the skills we've seen him display it can be pretty much proposed that he's still alive. As for the Dark Eldar, I don't believe there is anyone in the Dark City who could handle a primarch, especially someone like the Khan. Though they haven't talked that much about it he was a badass and a mobile warrior all his life. I believe he's still hunting the dark eldar who kidnapped his people. As has been noted time flows just as inconsistent in the webway as it does in the Eye.The Lion is sleeping and Vulkan is playing the galaxy longest and largest treasure hunt with his legion.

The Daemon primarchs are all now pawns in the Great Game.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

I had to laugh at the treasure hunt comment...:grin:


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## Arcanum Crozioum (Apr 1, 2012)

Personally... I'd like to think that Dorn is somehow preparing the Defenses of Terra for a possible Tyranid Incursion if only cause the bad bugs have gotten just bout within the star system of Terra...

As for Khan... Well I'm perty sure he's havin fun makin a mess of the Eldar haha.

I'd like to think Leman Russ is just waitin for the opportune time to bring his Wolves into the Eye of Terror to rip appart Abaddon limb by limb and rip his throat out with his fangs...

If i remember right, Vulkan said he will come back when the Salamanders needed him the most and disappeared from the known Galaxy... Maybe that was one of the others... Please correct me if I'm wrong...

Corax??? Well he's prolly planning the greatest ambush of all time and secretly scheming with the Raven Guard's Master


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

Arcanum Crozioum said:


> If i remember right, Vulkan said he will come back when the Salamanders needed him the most and disappeared from the known Galaxy... Maybe that was one of the others... Please correct me if I'm wrong...


The Salamanders have to find all the artifacts first. That's one of the conditions of his return.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

What are the Primachs up to? Being dead. 

Russ: his Legion (including the 13th) lost contact with him a long time ago but they did find his armour. Personally I don't buy even a Primarch being able to survive stark naked in the realm of the Gods. 

Corax: disappeared in an apparently suicidal funk. People don't live long when they decide not to, especially in the Eye.

Vulkan: his Legion believe they're on a treasure hunt for his gear. I don't know a lot about his fluff, but do we actually have conformation that he survived the Drop Site? I can't recall anything, not even an account of his leaving. Just the vague, apocryphal tale of his sons having to prove their worth by finding his stuff. Doesn't seem like something the most compassionate Primarch would do in the aftermath of the Heresy, so I'm inclined to believe it's baloney.

Khan: lost in the webway. Not only is this the realm of the Dark Eldar (who in addition to being scheming evil [email protected] are actually quite good at killing people) but is also of things far worse. The DE themselves (descendants of the people who pioneered the place) don't have complete maps of it, or complete catalogs of the dangers lurking in it. I'm inclined to believe that the Khan couldn't cut it, but he does have the best chance of survival. And it'd be pretty ironic for him to come back, just cause he's easily had the least fluff on him.

Dorn: is very, very dead. His (dead) body was found, his skeleton is in amber and his hands have people's names tattooed on their bones. Doesn't sound like something survivable to me.

Ferrus: is also very, very dead. Sans head (and 'Fulgrim' took it so they can't even get it back) is not a good position to be in, doesn't matter how much technology you have access to.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

Body wasn't found as far as I can tell, just his hand. I could be wrong though...


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

SonofMalice said:


> Body wasn't found as far as I can tell, just his hand. I could be wrong though...


There was a lengthy debate about this not that long ago, can't find it though. But basically, one story says hands the other says 'remains' and mentions weapons and armour (and what was eventually done with his hands). Hands would be part of the remains but it seems odd to call just the hands 'remains'. So it seems likely to me that they recovered most, if not all, of his body.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

Fair enough, forgive a poor optimist his hopes :grin:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

His body is encased in amber within a shrine on Phalanx. 

As I've said numerous times, it wouldn't be at all improbable for Russ, Corax or Vulkan to still be alive after all this time if they had gone into the eye. You have to remember time flows differently in there, they could have gone in there just after the Heresy ended and emerge in present 40k having only been in there for a day. And if the 13th Company can survive all this time in there, then Russ certainly can.


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## oOChrisOo (Feb 14, 2012)

Even if Dorn was still alive, personaly i dont even think a primarch could survive very long without any hands. (stumps arnt the best for fighting with)
I would love russ to come back at the head of the 13th company kicking Abbadons ugly ass all the way back to the eye of terror, before abruptly dissapearing. Aswell as Vulkan greeting Vulkan He'stan as he finds the last of the artifacts not sure what happens next but him leading his chapter would probably be a bit OP  I dont know much about Khan and Corax so wont comment on them


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## jamierobinson94 (Jun 20, 2009)

oOChrisOo said:


> Even if Dorn was still alive, personaly i dont even think a primarch could survive very long without any hands. (stumps arnt the best for fighting with)
> I would love russ to come back at the head of the 13th company kicking Abbadons ugly ass all the way back to the eye of terror, before abruptly dissapearing. Aswell as Vulkan greeting Vulkan He'stan as he finds the last of the artifacts not sure what happens next but him leading his chapter would probably be a bit OP  I dont know much about Khan and Corax so wont comment on them


You could say Rogal Dorn was pretty "armless" now :laugh:


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

If anyone's going to return it will the Lion, because _we actually know where he is_.
The others are all maybes and possibly's etc etc, and jamming it out as hermits in some godforsaken part of the galaxy with a bunch of hookers and a fuckload of booze. Who'd wanna leave that behind?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> What are the Primachs up to? Being dead.


My thoughts exactly. 

The myths and legends surrounding the Primarchs are just that, myths and legends. Who knows what truly happened during and post-Scouring. Who truly knows what the Primarchs said before they disappeared or where they went. Obviously theories are abound, but they are numerous and cannot agree. The fact that several of them cannot be proved dead inevitably resulted in myths of their return - similar to the arthurian legends - but stretched over ten millennia in a highly religious, superstitious and tyrannical society - imagine how distorted and fabricated such myths and legends have become... 



Deadeye776 said:


> Russ is not lost as was said by the 13th Company. They say he'll return when he's ready to return.


Do you have a source for that?

Because I don't recall reading anything of the sort. As far as I am aware the 13th Company have not been officially contacted by the Imperium, their IA article states that _"...every attempt to contact them has resulted in the threat of further bloodshed."_ So if anything, the 13th Company themselves are semi-hostile to Imperial forces. 




MEQinc said:


> I don't know a lot about his fluff, but do we actually have conformation that he survived the Drop Site?


Beyond a vague reference to him opposing the codex reforms, no.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

If Draigo can survive in the Warp surely Corax, who is one of the best fighters in the entire Imperium according to him at least, could as well. Same thought for Russ. Granted neither of these guys are protected by the powerful artifact known as the Hand of Matt Ward so maybe that is the issue :grin:


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## oOChrisOo (Feb 14, 2012)

Leman Russ definatly said he would be back as Bjorn is still alive( atleast patially as a dreadnaught) and every however many years they hear his stories and how Leman Russ said what he said and then left without another word to anyone, leaving only Bjorn behind out of his wolf guard to become the fist Grat wolf and lead the space wolfs.

Bit off topic but as i was writing this i was wondering if Bjorn could be a contemptor dread and not a ormal average everyday dread considering he was put in one quite early on.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

SonofMalice said:


> If Draigo can survive in the Warp surely Corax, who is one of the best fighters in the entire Imperium according to him at least, could as well. Same thought for Russ.


Theres a distinct difference though: Draigo is cursed.



oOChrisOo said:


> Leman Russ definatly said he would be back as Bjorn is still alive( atleast patially as a dreadnaught) and every however many years they hear his stories and how Leman Russ said what he said and then left without another word to anyone, leaving only Bjorn behind out of his wolf guard to become the fist Grat wolf and lead the space wolfs.


Yes he is, but madness often grips those within a the shell of a dreadnought. It could also be possible that Bjorn could have misinterpreted or misremembered what his Primarch said. But regardless, whatever Bjorn says - other accounts of Russ' disappearance still exist.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Even then, Russ may have told Bjorn that he was coming back, with every intention of doing so, but then been killed after he had left. Bjorn not knowing Russ is dead, carries on telling everyone he'll be back.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

All the lore on Dorn is ancient apart from the one mention in a RPG book which isn't the sort of book you'd use to actually confirm something as divided as this issue. Remains could mean his weapons or a body part, if it meant his body why not say they found his body, instead they only mention they have his hand on display where each chapter master scrimshaws their name on upon taking office.

Things can change as shown by the Horus Heresy series and I've said this many times but some still insist that he is 100% dead when in truth he's Schrödinger's cat.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Whenever 'remains' is used in that context it should always mean a body(/parts) and dead. If they hadn't found his body then I'm certain it would have said so, rather than use a term that contextually always been a dead body or corpse, usually one that's not in the best of conditions.

If you went missing and I went looking for you and found your remains, it would mean you were dead. If someone is in a burning building and their remains are found afterwards, it means they're dead. If you charge onto a chaos ships bridge and afterwards your warriors find your remains, your dead. Context is everything, and in the context it's used in the IA article, that means dead.

The Oxford English Dictionary's definition of remains is: a person's body after death


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I guess Russ is dead then after they found his remains in front of that Khorne Temple. Anyway we've been over this a number of times already, it always ends with neither side changing their mind and then another thread will pop up and someone else will say he's 100% dead and so the cycle continues.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Russ armour was found, not his remains. Though even then that doesn't bode well for him.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

remains
plural of re·mains (Noun)
Noun:	
The parts left over after other parts have been removed, used, or destroyed.

Historical or archaeological relics.


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> remains
> plural of re·mains (Noun)
> Noun:
> The parts left over after other parts have been removed, used, or destroyed.
> ...


Ha, I was just gonna post the definition. But yes, remains just means the parts left over from the whole. So a hand or armor would be the remains of Dorn.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Again context is everything, and specifically why the Dictionary give the different examples. To find some ones remains, is to find their dead body. Next time anyone or animal goes missing, tell some one that their remains have been found. They will know(or should do if they paid attention to english in school) that the missing person/animal is dead.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah the context of a first person view, Dorn could of been obliterated which only left his hand etc so they said remains, or he could of lost his hand and broken weapons and disappeared. how many times in fiction or fact has someone found someones remains only for them to re-surface later on.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Aside from the novel _Space Marine_ claiming his body is encased in amber, the Imperial Fists IA article states that: _"Considering the circumstances of Rogal Dorn's eventual death, it is clear that the Imperial Fists have a drive for self-sacrifice that they must continually battle to overcome."_

In a similar fashion to how Sanguinius' death effected his Legion, it seems possible that Dorn's death effected his in the sense that it planted a desire for self-sacrifice in his Astartes.

Anyway, Dorn is dead. I don't see why this always causes extensive discussion.


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

Optimism vs pessimism


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yeah this is the one thing in the world I am being optimistic for, don't take it away from my very pathetic life


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## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

Ill make my reply to this simple by listing all the primarchs and what they are up to, even dead ones in order of legion:

1: Lion El'Jonson - Sleeping on The Rock
3: Fulgrim - Doing Slaaneshie stuff on the Planet of Pleasure
4: Perturabo - Brooding on Medrangard
5: Jhaghati Khan - Riding round in circles in the Webway
6: Leman Russ - Somewhere in the Eye of Terror doing stuff
7: Rogal Dorn - Dead - Entombed in amber on the Phalanx
8: Konrad Curze - Dead - No idea where his body is
9: Sanguinus - Entombed on Baal - Braindead(spoiler - Blood Angels 2nd Omnibus)
10: Ferrus Manus - Disputed though im going with dead - body on Isstvan V
12: Angron - No idea as he was banished back into the warp during the first war of Armogeddon
13: Papa-Smurf (Guilliman) - Dead(my view) - Entombed on Macragge
14: Mortarion - Doing something on the Plague planet
15: Magnus the Red - On the planet of Sorcerer's - Plotting something
16: Horus - Dead - Body destroyed by Abbadon
17: Lorgar - Meditating on Sicarius(think thats its name) for the last 10,000 years
18: Vulkan - Disappeared and waiting for his chapter to discover his 9 Artefacts before returning
19: Corax - Went off into the Eye of Terror to atone for the monsters he created
20: Alpharius - Once again Disputed but im going with Alpha Legion of awesome so possibly plotting something as usual.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

BloodAngelZeros said:


> Optimism vs pessimism


No its *fact* vs *bullshit*. The article says he's dead, where does optimism or pessimism come into this? It outright states Dorn is dead, as if the 'remains' issue isn't enough, it actually says he died. Like CotE, I don't see how this causes so much debate, people need to accept the fact that Dorn is dead, Manus is dead, Sanguinius is dead, Kurze is dead, Horus is dead, Guilliman is dead(don't even think about it! stasis or not, for now, *dead*).


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

revan4559 said:


> 9: Sanguinus - Entombed on Baal - Braindead(spoiler - Blood Angels 2nd Omnibus)


Your gonna have to run this one by me...


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

revan4559 said:


> 10: Ferrus Manus - Disputed though im going with dead - body on Isstvan V


Erm, disputed? Fulgrim quite clearly cuts his head off...

Or does that not warrant the confirming detail required to check if someone's dead or not?


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## Arcanum Crozioum (Apr 1, 2012)

revan4559 said:


> Ill make my reply to this simple by listing all the primarchs and what they are up to, even dead ones in order of legion:
> 
> 
> 16: Horus - Dead - Body destroyed by Abbadon
> ...


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed, but his body was destroyed by Abbadon afterwards.


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## Arcanum Crozioum (Apr 1, 2012)

Angel of Blood said:


> Indeed, but his body was destroyed by Abbadon afterwards.


I realize that which is why i noted it. Thanks though :biggrin:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

spanner94ezekiel said:


> Erm, disputed? Fulgrim quite clearly cuts his head off...
> 
> Or does that not warrant the confirming detail required to check if someone's dead or not?


It's not really disputed by any of us, but within the lore there are rumours which cite he somehow escaped to Mars. Which links back to what I said earlier about myths and legends.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Kaldor draigo, Grand Master of the Grey knights is currently in the warp, beating demons up, so its not impossible that primarchs are alive considering an astartes can live there.
The spacewolves omnibus (the last book) goes into some detail about the 13th chapter, their wulfen mutations apparently help them fight off the corrupting force of chaos and they have been fighting there for many years (of course time dosent really work there), though they havent seen Russ for some ...time they beleive he is doing something very important and will, when the time comes return to them.
Vulkan, according to the salamanders book (though of course as Child of theEmperor said due to the fact 10,000 years have past therefore facts are distorted) The salamanders have a book which has secrets that show the location of different parts of armour/relics i think there are 5 peices, when they collect all 5 Vulkan apparently returns, something about them needing to prove to him that they are worthy.
Now the Khan, i understand people would think him dead, but we dont really know what can kill a primarch other than another primarch, i mean corax fought several traitor primarchs (Lorgar and Kurze at least) and was fighting against his "nephews" for 99 days getting shot by many rockets and thousands of bolters, while he was hurt, it didnt impede his ability to kill(also point out he stopped his body from healing, a sort of reminder, so he could have gone longer) so i personally think khan,russ, corax at least have a great chance of survival, i mean YES the eye of terror is dangerous but even the weakling lorgar beat An'ggrath the unbound (the Most favoured of khrone) (Source is Aurelian) in single combat even though there was very little oxygen.
Should also point out Corax was basically suicidal throughout a large part of those 99 days wanting to be killed by Angron (Source on corax is audio book Ravens flight and the novel Deliverance lost, the first heretic)


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lost&Damned said:


> Kaldor draigo, Grand Master of the Grey knights is currently in the warp, beating demons up, so its not impossible that primarchs are alive considering an astartes can live there.


Again though, Dragio is cursed. Also, he is (unfortunately) incorruptible - whilst the Primarchs are (fortunately) not. Also, there is no account of the Primarchs venturing directly into the warp, just the Great Eye which is a warp overlap - an important distinction.

But of course its not impossible for them to have survived in the Eye that long.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Something that should be brought up in this conversation, in the book Phalanx the last book of the Soul drinkers Omnibus it talks of the "end" it talks about (i cant copy and paste it so it will have to be abbreviated, heavily) All those that died in the Emperors name will be their to join him in a final battle, all the astartes, imperial gurad and even, every loyal primarch, sanguinus the angel paints his face with a million tears, one for every blood brother who stands by his side, Russ, the lion, the Khan and even ferrus are all described as being alive, the astartes wearing Golden armour, Facing off the numberless hore of chaos, and Dorn the first to fight.

I really Love Dorn btw the 2 reasons why i feel that the fluff should be changed.
1-Orks dont deserve to kill a primarch.
2-there arent enough loyalist primarchs left


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I don't think I'm ever going to get into a discussion on whether Dorn is alive or dead again, it's fiction, a fantasy fiction where anything can happen, and just because of some FPP he's dead just like how apparently Alpharius is dead. Nothing is guranteed and things change. Apparently according to the IA article Fulgrim was drugged into turning traitor when he went to Istvaan to parley, but that changed. 

All I'm saying is thing are not always as they seem.


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## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

Lost&Damned said:


> Something that should be brought up in this conversation, in the book Phalanx the last book of the Soul drinkers Omnibus it talks of the "end" it talks about (i cant copy and paste it so it will have to be abbreviated, heavily) All those that died in the Emperors name will be their to join him in a final battle, all the astartes, imperial gurad and even, every loyal primarch, sanguinus the angel paints his face with a million tears, one for every blood brother who stands by his side, Russ, the lion, the Khan and even ferrus are all described as being alive, the astartes wearing Golden armour, Facing off the numberless hore of chaos, and Dorn the first to fight.
> 
> I really Love Dorn btw the 2 reasons why i feel that the fluff should be changed.
> 1-Orks dont deserve to kill a primarch.
> 2-there arent enough loyalist primarchs left


Just going to mention that if you thought Dorn was killed by Orks, he actually wasn't.

If i remember correctly he was killed by a Chaos Lord of the Iron Warriors or Black Legion during the 5th or 6th Black Crusade after having fought his way onto the Chaos Lords bridge. Anyone else remember this bit of fluff or am i going mental?


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

to revan

if it was 6th or 5th wouldn't that mean he stayed in the imperium for a few 1000 years after the Emperors ascension?
more likely he was killed in 1st or 2nd, as far as i am aware it was the orks, but id love more info


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

revan4559 said:


> Just going to mention that if you thought Dorn was killed by Orks, he actually wasn't.
> 
> If i remember correctly he was killed by a Chaos Lord of the Iron Warriors or Black Legion during the 5th or 6th Black Crusade after having fought his way onto the Chaos Lords bridge. Anyone else remember this bit of fluff or am i going mental?


He supposedly died during the boarding action on the bridge of a despoiler class battleship_ Sword of Sacrilege_, but it's not said what killed him, but the ship was still trying to escape when it was boarded by the remaining Fists.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

sorry yes, the whole Ork thing is completely wrong, my fault, it was in the sword of sacrilege as the others said


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> All I'm saying is thing are not always as they seem.


That's a shit excuse imo. An excuse that can effectively be used to justify any theory. Yes they can retcon the fluff as they did with Fulgrim, but as of the current fluff in all available sources, Dorn is dead.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

From your interpretation of something over 10 years old. Why do you want him dead so much though, nearly all the chaos ones are alive and kicking, why must the loyalist ones all be dead aside from a few who may be dead and one who is definitely not dead.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

*Obligatory statement about Trazyn the Infinite having captured one*

Conspiracy! :crazy:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I don't *want* them dead. But they are dead. I follow the fluff, If the fluff says someone dead, then he or she is dead until it's stated other wise. The old fluff states he's dead, the Index Astartes states he's dead. Nowhere states him to be alive. It's not my interpretation, it's just the facts, he's dead. The question is why do *you* want them to be alive so much? The time of the Primarchs is long gone, the loyalists are either dead or missing(potentially dead) and the traitors are too busy with the big game to bother the Imperium any more, Angron being the last to do so and he was banished by the Grey Knights for his troubles.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Because I happen to think the 40k Universe is more interesting when there's loyalist Primarchs about, and Dorn is my favourite Primarch and I believe there's enough room for him to be alive still with a possible mysterious reason why he disappeared. I'd prefer the intrigue than the options of him just being dead.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Dorn is a deceased little rapscallion who gave his life to prevent the 1st Black Crusade from getting past Cadia whilst the Imperial Navy and majority of the Imperial Fists fleet raced to intercept the traitors.

Indirectly you could say the Eldar, Ulthwe specifically, were responsible for his death (doing to with subterfuge Dorn what they couldn't manage directly against Angron) by luring away most of the IF fleet just before the call to arms, to defend Cadia, was raised.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well hope and twist the fluff all you want, but sadly your going into the realms of fan fiction by wanting him to be alive. Sanguinius is my favourite Primarch, but I accept he's dead. I like the Primarchs as much as the next fan, but you've got to accept the ones that are dead, are just that. Dead. The Primarchs won't be seen again in 40k. 

Theres as much evidence for Dorn being alive as Kurze, that is if you prescribe to Lux's papermache head theories.


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## SoulGazer (Jun 14, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> The Primarchs won't be seen again in 40k.


I wouldn't go that far... Unless you meant just the dead ones. Even then, I wouldn't put it past GW to do something silly. It wouldn't be the first time.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

SoulGazer said:


> I wouldn't go that far... Unless you meant just the dead ones. Even then, I wouldn't put it past GW to do something silly. It wouldn't be the first time.


I agree. What with them rewriting the Heresy a bit at a time and clearing things up I have a feeling a lot of the old fluff is going to be updated and more closure given by the novels. That said I have to disagree in a gentlemanly manner with CoE and AoB. Yes, I grant you that a lot of the things cited are myths, legends, and half remembered stories. I grant you that it is exceedingly far fetched to think that a normal Astartes would be around after going to the Eye or being trapped in the Webway or what have you. These are Primarchs though, the stuff OF legend and myth. Granted that they can still die but each is a being of great power, the greatest remaining to the Imperium barring the Emperor. The stuff of the warp bound into flesh, immortal warriors, each with psychic powers at some level. 

I don't buy for a single second that Russ or Corax are dead simply because they are, in addition to all that went before, two of the best warriors in the Imperium and quite capable of handling themselves in the eye. Even setting aside Draigo we do know that the CSMs survive in the Eye and while I would entertain arguments that the two primarchs might be corrupted I think that survival there is certainly possible, even probable, for them.

Vulkan, as I remember it, just straight up left and not to go the Eye (as far as we know) so he of all the loyalists seems most likely to return since he both gave his word to and so far as we know isn't trapped anywhere.

The Lion is having the mightiest of cat naps so his return is more a question of "when" than "if" as mentioned above.

Khan....not sure. If anyone had a chance of running circles around DE or Eldar it would be him though.

That leads us back to Dorn. Remains....yes I get the context argument but at the same time the definition of the word does apply to just a hand and some armor. Dorn COULD be alive, how many crime shows use that old trick of showing that there is a fire or something and then discovering blood or a finger and intuiting that as remains of a body only for the person to be shown alive later (usually with handcuffs on for faking their own death). As the Primarch deepest in the council of the Emperor before his death perhaps he saw an opportunity. To me when dealing with something as different from humanity as a Primarch dead requires a body as proof just as a start. Manus dipped his hands into LAVA (or is it Magma?) so clearly it would take something pretty spectacular to destroy all of a primarch BUT his hand. Come to that doesn't it strike one as somewhat symbolic given the name of his legion? Perhaps, again as mentioned above, he intended to create that sense of self sacrifce in his sons by such an act. Who can know until the fluff tells us but I agree with a previous poster, he is Schrodinger's Primarch until then.

Dead for sure:
Ferrus Manus. The traitors do seem awfully certain that he isn't coming back and the books do paint it very clearly. 

Sanguinus: Sadness, so far this one can't even begin to be contested. Too bad.

Guilliman: If it killed Ferrus Manus and almost killed Horus then I say it SHOULD have killed Guilliman.


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

Not sure why anybody would doubt ferrus Manus being dead. His head was chopped clean off, which was described in detail, and said head was presented to Horus


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

Words_of_Truth said:


> From your interpretation of something over 10 years old. Why do you want him dead so much though, nearly all the chaos ones are alive and kicking, why must the loyalist ones all be dead aside from a few who may be dead and one who is definitely not dead.


This is actually my reasoning for hoping that the loyalist ones will somehow return, lol. With virtually every chaos primarch alive and virtually all the loyalist ones dead, there has to be some balancing at some point or something that comes along to tip it in the favor of loyalists.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

SonofMalice said:


> In a moment of boredom I found myself musing on what the loyalist primarchs have been doing for around ten thousand years


prolly boozing with their brothers in the warp...it must be either the greatest party for them to be gone for 10 millennia, or the worst hangover.:grin:


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## Arcanum Crozioum (Apr 1, 2012)

Just gotta state one point... I LOVE how this RP thread turned into a hot debate thread on dead or alive... I'm perty sure it was just on what ye think they would be doing... Not just facts... And he clearly stated in the first post which of the primarchs were posed to be talked about... IMO


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

If I were to say, going on the fact that they found his armour and also taking into account the comments of the Thousand Sons in _Battle of the Fang_, that I believe Leman Russ is dead, I'd get a bunch of people telling me I'm wrong and that I have no concrete proof. Yet, people argue that Dorn is alive, dispite the fact that all the fluff we currently have on him says he's dead, with their only reasoning being 'anything can happen'. By that logic I could pretty much make any baseless statement and defend it by saying 'anything is possible in 40k'. The fact is, the fluff says he's dead. Hoping that they change the fluff in the future doesn't change the standing of the current fluff we have available. 



SonofMalice said:


> Come to that doesn't it strike one as somewhat symbolic given the name of his legion? Perhaps, again as mentioned above, he intended to create that sense of self sacrifce in his sons by such an act. Who can know until the fluff tells us but I agree with a previous poster, he is Schrodinger's Primarch until then.


Until the fluff tells us? Well, all the current fluff available to us says he's dead.

Maybe I'm misunderstaning you, but are you trying to say that Dorn decided to intentionally mutilated and crippled himself in order to make a single chapter of marines more willing to off themselves in the line of duty and then just went into hiding, as opposed to using his influence to help the larger Imperium as a whole, not to mention helping it recover after just suffering a Black Crusade? And if so, where has stumpy been hiding for the last 10k years? I'm sorry, but to me that just sounds silly.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Chompy Bits said:


> If I were to say, going on the fact that they found his armour and also taking into account the comments of the Thousand Sons in _Battle of the Fang_, that I believe Leman Russ is dead, I'd get a bunch of people telling me I'm wrong and that I have no concrete proof. Yet, people argue that Dorn is alive, dispite the fact that all the fluff we currently have on him says he's dead, with their only reasoning being 'anything can happen'. By that logic I could pretty much make any baseless statement and defend it by saying 'anything is possible in 40k'. The fact is, the fluff says he's dead. Hoping that they change the fluff in the future doesn't change the standing of the current fluff we have available.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where has Russ or Corax or Vulkan? That makes no sense, if they can go for a little walk why can't Dorn who spent a lot of time thinking about things as evident by his appearances in the current HH novels. The current fluff doesn't say he's dead, it merely indicates it. Like it indicates Alpharius is dead.

It would be just like Dorn to cut off his hand to inspire his future marines, he went through the Iron Cage incident to cleanse his legion but it's possible he still didn't feel entirely content.

Anyway this could go on forever, it's a matter of opinion and interpretation, some are set on looking at the words as they interpret them and others try to read between the lines. If you go simply off the words then according to the Ultramarines the Alpha Legion has no Primarch, but we know different. 

Until something recent and relevant like a Horus Heresy novel states he's dead (and not some rpg book from a offshoot company), my opinion on his current status will remain open.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

But as CotE pointed out, it's not even just the remains comment, the article actually states his death, not disappearance minus hands, it says he died. It doesn't even say that his body is missing, just that his hands were recovered amongst the remains, which pretty much say to me his body was in a shit state when they found it, but again, elsewhere in the article it states he's dead. There's no twisting, interpreting or opioniating going on here, he's just dead. Deal with it.

And 'wanting more loyalists alive because chaos ones are' is not 'reasoning' as to why Dorn should be alive, it's just daft. Besides even with Dorn dead, that's only tow more confirmed dead Primarchs than the traitors anyway, unless you want to believe Alpharius is dead, in which case it's only one more. Or from what Revan has said, it's technically only three confirmed dead loyalists(Dorn, Guilliman and Manus)

Edit: Really? How many times do you need to hear it? The Index Astartes, which is current, official, 100% canon, says he's dead.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

_"Considering the circumstances of Rogal Dorn's eventual death"_. 

That does not say 'supposed' or 'disappearance' or 'ambiguous', it states that he died. KIA, pushing up daises, toes up to the sky, he would be six feet under if they hadn't encased his body in amber. Though I wonder why I bother posting facts about the fluff when your admitted bias over him being your favourite Primarch and annoyance that most the chaos ones are alive, will still make you ignore what's in front of your eyes.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

It says he's dead from a first person perspective based on the remains recovered, not an omnipresent perspective. If they'd said they recovered his body then fine, but they didn't and it remains a possibility that he slipped away.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

That is not a first person perspective at all! Honestly I give up, if anyone wants to hear some facts, let me know or read the above, otherwise crack on with the idealistic fairy tale that's taking place here. 

Ps. Whilst we're at it, I'm very happy Sanguinius is alive and that Horus also survived his obliteration. Because, similar to that great religious quote '40k works in mysterious ways' /sarcasm


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

The articles are 10 years old, there wasn't even a mention of omegon in the Alpha Legion article, I'm not saying Dorn is not dead, I'm saying there's a *possibility* he's not.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

What does everyone think Lorgar is doing, why the hell is he meditating for 10,000 years?


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> The articles are 10 years old, there wasn't even a mention of omegon in the Alpha Legion article, I'm not saying Dorn is not dead, I'm saying there's a *possibility* he's not.


Hands recovered from among the remains. That says to me that only the hands were at all recoverable. Which then speaks to the fact he was definitely pretty dead. 

There is no possibility of even a primarch being alive after that. 



Lost&Damned said:


> What does everyone think Lorgar is doing, why the hell is he meditating for 10,000 years?


Because he's got a lot to think about?


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## dtq (Feb 19, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Do you have a source for that?
> 
> Because I don't recall reading anything of the sort. As far as I am aware the 13th Company have not been officially contacted by the Imperium, their IA article states that _"...every attempt to contact them has resulted in the threat of further bloodshed."_ So if anything, the 13th Company themselves are semi-hostile to Imperial forces.
> 
> Beyond a vague reference to him opposing the codex reforms, no.


No "official" contact for certain, but clearly contact enough with the rest of the space wolves.

Its taken some finding, but in Wolfs Honour its got the following passage from Bulveye wolflord of the 13th Company to Ragnar Blackmane Just as the 13th Company leadership are enjoying some Fenrisian Ale with Ragnar

"Bulveye gave Ragnar a wolfish smile. 'Leman is no more lost than we were,' he replied. ' I don't know where he's gone, but I do know this: he swore an oath to us a very long time ago, and one day he will keep it.'

Also interestingly it seems the 13th Company have an ability to do some sort of Warp Walk, by which they can cover vast distances in seconds, suggesting they are close to being able to literally walk between planets in seconds.

It is also made clear in several passages that the 13th Company are WELL aware of the passage of 10,000 years. This is one but theres several others as well where it appears that the 13th Company have been around for 10,000 years, rather than it all happening last week to them as we so often discuss when it comes to warp. Inquisitor Volt accusess them of dancing upon the edge of Damnation to which the Rune Priest replies "We've spent the last ten thousand years here, Volt. We've Forgotten more about damnation than you will ever know.'

Im almost certain theres other meetings amongst the series between Ragnar and the 13th Company and also a strong hint at the end of the book that Logan Grimnar knows full well whats going on with the 13th company.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I think the Lion's could be classed as 'dead', because he's been captured by a massively powerful race of xenos (or type of Daemon, it's not clear) that can completely hide their presence, plus the physical _and_ psychic presence of a Primarch, from an Astartes fortress-monastery, as well as being indestructible and being able to stop time. They barely communicate with anyone, and to my knowledge they haven't made any promises about giving him back.

I think Lorgar's trying to comprehend Chaos, which is why it's taken him so damn long.

Midnight


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

The lion is in stasis under the "Rock" (after his fight with Luther where he was mortally wounded),the aliens you speak of are xenos that previously tried to contain the threat of chaos in Caliban, Zahariel knew about them, and Johnson probably did too.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

More to the point that one of them carries Azrael's helm into battle shows they at least have some allegiance to the Chapter.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I wouldn't presume anything about the enigmatic Watchers. The very fact that they are hiding Jonson from the Dark Angels and the Imperium puts a rather large question mark on their allegiances and motives.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

The inner circle of the dark angels knows that he's down there don't they?


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## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

Incorrect. No one in the Chapter knows he is down there. he only ones who know are the Watchers themselvees and maybe the Emperor. The only secret is the fact Luthor is still alive and then that is only known to the Supreme Grand Master.


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## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> The inner circle of the dark angels knows that he's down there don't they?


If they knew he was there dont you think they would of woken him up by now? The inner circle dont know the Lion is still on the Rock and just think he is missing like several of the other primarchs and will return eventually. I personally think The Lion is in a room which the entire chapter walk passed and every so often one of them turns to the other "Brother, what exactly is in that room there?" "That one with the plain wooden door? Just a broom closet."


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

They know Luthor is alive but not the Primarch? That seems unusual, I always had a theory the reason why they didn't wake the Primarch up was because they didn't want the rest of the Imperium to know Johnson was a turncoat.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I don't think I'm ever going to get into a discussion on whether Dorn is alive or dead again, it's fiction, a fantasy fiction where anything can happen, and just because of some FPP he's dead just like how apparently Alpharius is dead. Nothing is guranteed and things change. Apparently according to the IA article Fulgrim was drugged into turning traitor when he went to Istvaan to parley, but that changed.
> 
> All I'm saying is thing are not always as they seem.


No one is saying things can't change, but you cannot deny Dorn's death on the basis that the lore _could_ change. If that was the case then I could say Sanguinius might not be dead, because the lore _could_ change.

As things stand, and for as long as I can remember, the lore has stated that Dorn is dead - with nothing even claiming the contrary. Therefore he's dead.



revan4559 said:


> If i remember correctly he was killed by a Chaos Lord of the Iron Warriors or Black Legion during the 5th or 6th Black Crusade after having fought his way onto the Chaos Lords bridge. Anyone else remember this bit of fluff or am i going mental?


We don't know what Black Crusade it was, or even if it was one of Abaddon's, but it probably would have been one of the early ones (especially considering it occured soon after Corax's disappearance). We also don't know what/who he was killed by, only that he made his last stand on the bridge of the _Sword of Sacrilege_ (Despoiler Class).



Words_of_Truth said:


> The current fluff doesn't say he's dead, it merely indicates it. Like it indicates Alpharius is dead.


The lore states he is dead. The IA article makes several references to his death beyond the recovery of his _"remains"_. _Space Marine_ also states his body is preserved in amber. He is dead. Unlike the Alpha Legion's IA article (which is the only source on Eskrador) which is intentionally left ambiguous and mysterious to the extent that the Ultramarines themselves doubt the account. Considering the source of this account it's plausable the Battle of Eskrador did not even occur. Two completely different examples.



Words_of_Truth said:


> Anyway this could go on forever, it's a matter of opinion and interpretation, some are set on looking at the words as they interpret them and others try to read between the lines. If you go simply off the words then according to the Ultramarines the Alpha Legion has no Primarch, but we know different.
> 
> Until something recent and relevant like a Horus Heresy novel states he's dead (and not some rpg book from a offshoot company), my opinion on his current status will remain open.


The IA article and a BL novel outright state he is dead. Where as the Alpha Legion IA article itself references that the Ultramarines doubt it's authenticity, as well as citing that the entire Eskrador account comes from Inquisitor Kravin who is believed to be a Alpha Legion cult-member.



Words_of_Truth said:


> The articles are 10 years old, there wasn't even a mention of omegon in the Alpha Legion article.


It doesn't matter how old they are. The IA articles have provided the most extensive sources for most (if not all) of the Astartes Legions since their publication, and remain so for most to this day.



Lost&Damned said:


> What does everyone think Lorgar is doing, why the hell is he meditating for 10,000 years?


Unknown. But 10,000 years isn't that long to an immortal daemon. An implicit statement at the end of _Dark Creed_: -


- suggests he may be intending to usurp Abaddon as Warmaster though. Although considering that was before the 13th Black Crusade, and considering the 13th Crusade's relative success this is not at all clear.




Words_of_Truth said:


> The inner circle of the dark angels knows that he's down there don't they?


No. They are aware that Luther is around, but not the Lion.



Words_of_Truth said:


> They know Luthor is alive but not the Primarch? That seems unusual, I always had a theory the reason why they didn't wake the Primarch up was because they didn't want the rest of the Imperium to know Johnson was a turncoat.


The Lion was essentially abducted by the Watchers without the First Legion's knowledge.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

They let some high-ranking dudes in to see Luther once in a while, to glean knowledge of the Fallen from him, but it's a pointless exercise because even if he tells them something, the Warp tells nothing but lies and half-truths to sane minds, so he's hardly a reliable source.

As far as I know, not even the Chapter Masters know that Johnson's even alive, let alone entombed in the Rock. They can't know, as the Watchers are strong enough to conceal their own psychic presence, plus the presence of a Primarch, from even the Chief Librarian of the Dark Angels, and can mask the physical aspects from the most advanced sensor suites and scanners available. They're pretty powerful, as they also teleport and, as previously mentioned, have a habit of being able to stop time.

Midnight


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## BloodAngelZeros (Jul 1, 2008)

MidnightSun said:


> They let some high-ranking dudes in to see Luther once in a while, to glean knowledge of the Fallen from him, but it's a pointless exercise because even if he tells them something, the Warp tells nothing but lies and half-truths to sane minds, so he's hardly a reliable source.
> 
> As far as I know, not even the Chapter Masters know that Johnson's even alive, let alone entombed in the Rock. They can't know, as the Watchers are strong enough to conceal their own psychic presence, plus the presence of a Primarch, from even the Chief Librarian of the Dark Angels, and can mask the physical aspects from the most advanced sensor suites and scanners available. They're pretty powerful, as they also teleport and, as previously mentioned, have a habit of being able to stop time.
> 
> Midnight


I'm just wondering what the source for all this is. I'd be curious to read it as it seems rather interesting and a hole in my knowledge.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Actually from what I remember, in Azraels entry in the latest Dark Angels codex, only the Grand Master and the Grand Master alone knows that Luther is imprisoned within the Rock, with the key for his cell being the Sword of Secrets. The knowledge is passed on to his successor, quite how it's passed on isn't made clear though(if the GM dies before he can tell his successor that is), perhaps a Watcher tells him, who knows. 

Not got the codex handy, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## sadLor (Jan 18, 2012)

The only one I think has a possibility of being alive is the Khan. 

A lot of people are saying he doesn't stand a chance as it's crawling with eldar... but I don't think this is true. If you read the Eldar path series of books including Renegade, you get the sense that the webway is vast beyond imagination and that the eldar themselves get lost easily in it. The Dark Eldar control one city and a few private realms within the webway... You could probably travel the webway for thousands of years without encountering another soul.

That all said, I still think the Khan is dead.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well Commorragh isn't really a city, or even in just one place. The scale of it just can't be measured, it's that vast.


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## sadLor (Jan 18, 2012)

Renegade does a pretty good job of describing the city. Yes, it incorporates many different realms connected via portals (the protagonists had to go through one) but on a galactic scale, you do not get the sense that it is that big.

I'm just saying that the idea that the Dark Eldar "infest" the entire webway probably isn't true. They run a small part of it. Theoretically, the Khan could hide out in some webway route that isn't known and still be there. Do I believe it? No... but it's a minute possibility.


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## oOChrisOo (Feb 14, 2012)

My 10 cent aboutt Dorn and if he's alive or not. Bearing in mind im not biest in any way. Surely if he was dead it would say dead and not bother mentioning they found his hands. Seriously if there was primarch dead on the floor let alone Dorn would you think crap he's dead (while breaking down in tears) or look at his hands, thining their pretty. 
I have not read either bit of fluff so this is going off what i have read in this thread but if he died or survived on a traitor ship and it fled how did they exactly get his remains. Not like they could just teleport his body away.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

oOChrisOo said:


> My 10 cent aboutt Dorn and if he's alive or not. Bearing in mind im not biest in any way. Surely if he was dead it would say dead and not bother mentioning they found his hands. Seriously if there was primarch dead on the floor let alone Dorn would you think crap he's dead (while breaking down in tears) or look at his hands, thining their pretty.
> I have not read either bit of fluff so this is going off what i have read in this thread but if he died or survived on a traitor ship and it fled how did they exactly get his remains. Not like they could just teleport his body away.


The arriving IF forces stormed the ships bridge and found his body, *that* ship didn't escape.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Found his remains.


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

sadLor said:


> The only one I think has a possibility of being alive is the Khan.
> 
> A lot of people are saying he doesn't stand a chance as it's crawling with eldar... but I don't think this is true. If you read the Eldar path series of books including Renegade, you get the sense that the webway is vast beyond imagination and that the eldar themselves get lost easily in it. The Dark Eldar control one city and a few private realms within the webway... You could probably travel the webway for thousands of years without encountering another soul.
> 
> That all said, I still think the Khan is dead.


My take on the Khan is that he knowingly went in to the webway and he wouldn't have done that if he hadn't known he could survive it. Ditto Russ and whatever he's up to, and Vulkan if he survived Isstvan V. Corax is dead unless his fluff gets retconned further following Deliverance Lost. My fluff knowledge on the Lion is weak and the rest are sadly dead.

But ultimately GW have left themselves enough wiggle room to bring back anyone except Ferrus and Sanguinius, although bringing back Dorn or even Guilliman would be really lame!


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Tywin Lannister said:


> Corax is dead unless his fluff gets retconned further following Deliverance Lost.


What makes you believe he is dead? Any more than Vulkan, the Khan or Russ that is?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Corax did the same as Russ, he's my second favourite Primarch, so I'm glad he simply vanished, although he must have a pretty big mental breakdown for him to simply walk off, if _Deliverance Lost_ is anything to go by.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Tywin Lannister said:


> My take on the Khan is that he knowingly went in to the webway and he wouldn't have done that if he hadn't known he could survive it.


Even the Eldar, who actually met the makers of the Webway and have expanded upon and altered it's make up, lack a complete understanding of the Webway. The idea that a Primarch who had never set foot in it (and may not have even known it existed) prior to his disappearance would have greater knowledge of it is ridiculous. Doubtless he figured he would survive it, but given the arrogance of the Primarchs that's hardly evidence that he would've.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I highly doubt the lost primarchs will die without BL taking the opportunity to write a story about it.


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> What makes you believe he is dead? Any more than Vulkan, the Khan or Russ that is?


Well, in the current fluff he was pretty down at the time, what with the year brooding and the whole 'Nevermore' business, and I'm pretty sure he was seeking his death. Even for a Primarch that shouldn't be too hard to achieve in the Eye. Whereas the others were all looking to achieve something, as far as we know. Could easily be wrong though, obviously!


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## shiftystylin (Mar 24, 2012)

What are the Primarch's up to?

My answer and I've though long and hard about this one. Chilling by a pool in Magaluf, sipping on a cold one.


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