# Space Marine Chapters - too small to make a difference



## Ahrimman (Apr 18, 2009)

Space Marine Chapters are 1,000 Marines strong but in an Imperium of over one million worlds I find it hard to believe 1,000+ Chapters can make much of a dent in defending at a minimum 1,000 worlds per Chapter (assuming only 1,000 Chapters and the Imperium is only one million worlds which is being conservative). This fact has always bugged me and I'm actually a Space Marine player!

I know it's canon and probably won't change but it just doesn't make any sense. I get it that a Space Marine Chapter has access to a formidable fleet and is meant to be a precision scapel that can drop pod assault and enemy and cut off the head of the enemy and let the body die. Hence how a Chapter can beat out enemies 100 times their number. I completely get that as well as all the special missions roles they fulfill, but the Imperium faces enemies that are not all that easy to defeat and Chapters are often deployed in meat grinder battles. In those instances like a Necron or Tyranid threat, a Space Marine chapter is good for maybe 100 times their weight in Imperial Guardsment but that's only the equivalent of 100,000 IG and a drop in the bucket compared to what the IG field as well as how easy they are to replace. In that instance, say the Chapter takes huge losses and needs to recover, well there goes the SM defenses for 1,000 worlds.

Since most Chapters only commit one to three companies to a battle on any one world at any time, 200 Marines could barely take a city let alone be the deciding factor in the fight for a world in any conflict where taking out an enemy's leader is an option.

Let me know what you think. I think whoever came up with this number for a Chapter at GW is a bit deluded.


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## Warsmith Falkner Nox (Apr 18, 2009)

yeah ur right, in reality it wouldnt be enough if they were fighting alone, its the type of fluff that is cool but gives u a headache if u contemptate it too long lol GW has said on many occasions that 1000 chapters is just a base line and that there are more, i think this is more to say that if all the chapters came together they would hav as much strength as the chaos space marine legions would then anything else.
Speakin of which the ultramarines made the loyal legions turn into chapters so that no one man would hav the power of a legion at his hands again..yet over half the chapters today are from the ultramarines and they hav their own little empire :S ironic.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I disagree. I think around a chapter of marines (most consisting of around 1000 marines) is plenty enough to easily turn the tide of a war. Astartes will rarely fight alone and will often act alongside the Imperial Guard for example, they act as the specialists.

Space Marines are the elite, its not like every system needs to be assigned with a chapter to protect it! They appear rarely to defend vital worlds and act in vital campaigns. Its the Imperial Guards job to protect the vast majority of systems 



Warsmith Falkner Nox said:


> Speakin of which the ultramarines made the loyal legions turn into chapters so that no one man would hav the power of a legion at his hands again..yet over half the chapters today are from the ultramarines and they hav their own little empire :S ironic.


Yes but the Ultramarines don't necessarily have authority over all their successor chapters! And yes i personally believe Guilliman was a usurper of power following the heresy, the rightful rule of the Imperium fell to Rogal Dorn (as appointed by the Emperor during the Heresy) not Guilliman.


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## cranvill (Jul 20, 2008)

i agree i dont marines are desinged any more for long drawn out champagines on there own since the herasy they are meant to be used as a spear head for imperial armys.


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## killmaimburn (Mar 19, 2008)

Besides that, 200 marines is a *MASSIVE* army by fluff standards. By fluff, imperial guard can be fighting a foe that outnumbers them 10:1, and then all of a sudden 1 squad of marines appear and bam, problem solved. Remember that in fluff the marines are monstrously powerful (check the movie marine stats in WD, I can't remember the number but you should be able to find it) and always outnumbered. The marines don't (generally) sit around protecting worlds. They arrive in the nick of time or just after a world is invaded then launch their precision attack. So a task force of 100 marines in a fast ship with a warp drive could easily defend a large number of worlds by splitting its forces and redeploying as necessary. And, what several OP's said, they act in conjunction with the guard usually, and as such have backup and numbers to reinforce themselves.


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## nightfish (Feb 16, 2009)

SM are a strike force, not a full on army, thats what the IG are for.


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

They really should have remained in legions. I also think Fishman (ie. Guilliman) rally abused the system he created. The only reason he was able to take contol is because he had the biggest army and Rogal feared another civil war. DAMN YOU FISHMAN


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## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

in my opinion i think big chapters and small chapters are both superior to codex chapters because-
a) in a small chapter for example the lamenters who are only three hundred marines have the advantage that more than likely each marine would have fought together and grow bonds, this gives them a close brotherhood that oon the battlefield will truely show.

b) big chapters have the advantage of fielding large amounts of marines and support at any time, for example, the black templars have thousands of marines spread out upon numerous crusades, this gives them the opertunity to seize new recruits and worlds for themselves.

the codex chapters meanwhile have none of thses advantages though they still have strong bonds but are not able to field as much marines as the space wolves or black templars, personally i prefer non codex chapters because in my mind guilimun was a fool for spliting the chapters.


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## Ahrimman (Apr 18, 2009)

I agree with the responses that SM armies are the elite spearhead of the Imperium's armies and that the IG do the vast majority of the defense of the Imperium. I think most of the responses are missing the point that 1,000 Marines in a prolonged conflict against any foe that doesn't have a singular leader or command structure to decapitate is not going to be all that effective even using the Uber Fluff versions of Marines.

Here's an example, a small Tyranid hive fleet attacks the home system of a Space Marine Chapter and starts invading it's worlds. The Chapter rallies the Navy and Imperial Guard to fend off the Tyranid fleet. Here's the problem, the SM fleet will make a difference in the conflict as will the Imperial Navy. Outside the SM fleet assets such as Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers, what are 1,000 Marines going to do against a 100 million Tyranids? I'm being conservative here, remember we have 6 billion people on Earth so 100 million Tyranids in a hive fleet is not that many organisms for a fleet that consume planets. Even in the most uber SM fluff, one Space Marine can take down maybe 100 Tyranids tops before getting taken down. That's a drop in the bucket before a Chapter is wiped out or runs out of Marines and munitions.

You could argue they could board the mothership of the hive fleet and kill the Norn Queen, assuming they could overcome the thousands of Tyranids inbetween them and the queen but that would only buy them some time before the hive fleet recovers and renews it's attack with another alpha synapse beast. If Chapters were 10,000 strong I could see them being effective but 1,000 superhumans armed mainly with bolters? The Navy and IG are going to do most of the work and the SM's (except for their ships) are just going to be relegated to insignificance.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Ahrimman, that is like saying the elite troops in your army are insignificant because they are few. Alone, they may by week, but with a huge force of IG to back them up, they are the spearhead. 

The Empire is like a sword. The Guard make up the bulk of the blade, with their tanks and ships making it's razor edge. The Marines are the very tip, sharpened to perfection, that, while small, seem insignificant, but enable the entire sword to be able to penetrate the enemy.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

interesting convo... I never thought of it like that. But I do agree that the space marines are but a fraction, perhaps a good little fraction to the empyream's power. Their power really is on the hands of the imperial fleet. No fricken way they are going to use force to take over the universe by the mere use of combat. They ever use force inorder to protect humanity and save worlds. They could easily destroy planets of orks just by using bombardments or even exterminatus.

As for the legions turning into chapters... I thought that was fucking stupid. Not only did they reduce the power of a force, but they also put restrictions on the power of what their units were composed of. Before this, units in many ways could be described as havocs/veterans units. They could use lots of heavy weapons, have skills, have veterans, have a variety of close combat weapons. Imagine playing the game with these units.... fricken awesome. Because of "fears" they decided to reduce their power capability over the universe.


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## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Despite the imperium being so vast, 90% of imperial worlds see no warfare. What we see are the planets and systems that do see warfare. it then gives tha impression that ALL of the imperium is in a constant state of warfare, where the reality is that most never see war, but are threatened by war in nearby systems. The reason that wars like Armageddon and the fight for cadia are so vital to the security of the imperium is that failures at those points mean that the other 90% are then threatened with warfare.

With that, 10% of a billion worlds is still 100 milion worlds. however, of the conflicts that are planetside, many are exactly what he space marines were intended for, early stage conflicts that can be ended with a quick, decisive battle.


BTW
The makeup of space marine squads has not changed significantly since the heresy, the biggest change was standardization and reduction to chapters. The reduction to chapter sized elements increases their power, since they are able to be in more places, and are more maneuverable. Both factors act as a force multiplier, the first because they are able to apply force at specific points, preventing wastage, the second because they are more responsive.

The perception that the change to the squads is probably due to the fiction vs. game rules. It is hard, with the game descriptions of average space marines to see them as all being veteran warriors, especially with a unit specifically called "Veterans." Compounding this is the fiction, which tends to portray any space marine worth mentioning as a veteran of so many battles that he cannot remember all of them. This causes a view that the rank and file are somehow inferior, when the case is that those that are named are simply just a little better.


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

I would like to mention that Dorn was not some altruistic boy scout, going along with Guilliman because he feared the Imperium would tear itself apart. Guilliman stepped in and began to fortify the Imperium in the wake of the Emperor's mortal wounding and was successful because of his unparalleled logistical abilities. He was elected High Lord of Terra by the Council of Terra and began the process of governing in the absence of constant supervision by the Emperor (remember, the Emperor was still able to talk and provide his opinion and advice for quite a long time after being set up on the Golden Throne.)

Most of the Primarchs resisted the change to the Codex, including Dorn. Dorn didn't accept the splitting of his Legion until _after_ the Iron Cage incident. Guilliman stepped in with the Ultramarines, forcing Perturabo to flee before he could kill Dorn. Because of this, Dorn relented and split his legion. Not only did he owe Guilliman for keeping the Fists from being wiped out in that battle, but he was also shamed for having fallen into the trap Perturabo had set.

Thanks,
Howard


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think you are right for now, however, I have heard in a few cannon fluff that recruitment is being pushed up extremley high. Due to the tyranid and ork threats. So this is soon to change. Pretty soon I wouldn't be surprised to see a vast percentage of the population being in the military. I would say anywhere between 18-25%.


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## Rixnor (Dec 23, 2007)

My response


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

Very Interesting Conversation.

I disagree that Marines at the current strength levels, and even thats very debatable about how many chapters are really out there... (see below for more information). are not an effective force themselves at enforcing the Pax Imperialis so to speak in conjunction with the supporting arms of the Guard and Inq. I think it comes down to looking at it in the following context.

Military History.

Time and time again military history from a Western perspective tells us one thing, the more advanced weaponry and sheer technological superiority an opponent has then the more likely they are to win most major conflicts. I will reserve my discussion here limiting it to pre 21st century warfare, however any student of military history will be able to illustrate effectively that, the Spanish conquest of the New World, Rorkes Drift, Lepanto, Salamis and hundreds of other conflicts were won by Western Armies/Navies who's technological prowess had distinct advantages over their opponents. In the world of 40k, the SM are the most advanced the Imperium can field in any great numbers, but also that anyone can field and replace with relative ease. I say ease, compared to Eldar who are dying and must reproduce (yes kids unless somebody tells me they are grown in vats eldar have to do the horizontal tango to replace losses, which going by the eldar it takes 10000 million years to do anything probably is a reason they are dying out.) The Necrons are waking up, no doubt powerful but are they really all there yet. They remind me of a senile old guy who has just woken up and is screaming hey you damn kids get off my lawn! But they eventually will cause and could overwhelm the marines maybe.. Lets compare that to a replacement Space Marine, done and dusted in 20 odd years. They have pools of populations to recruit from and basically its hey kids, 10 years of genetic engineering and you too can squish nids! This is a simple view however but it rings true at the core. I can replenish state of the art troops faster than you can breed or wake up so I have a good chance of smacking you thanks very much.

Look at the Opponents of the Marine on a day to day basis...

The atypical opponent in the 41M is not up to fighting against a Space Marine Chapter. A regular worlds PDF won't cut it against what is primarily a force that can take out the communications, armament and economic capability of their opponents quickly and with relative ease. Drop pods, battle barges, and teleporting terminators do all this as they are designed to do. Marines excell at small unit tactics and working against superior numbers. Lets also look at what is required to wage a war... the Marines have it, they have the resources, the best men, great armor and don't need to worry about a population revolting against hey stop conscripting my husbands, fathers, sons for some useless war. They are holy warriors dedicated to cause, they are not going to stop because their mother calls them home or popular opinion back at the Monastry turns against them. They are the best in any large numbers the galaxy has, whether they been traitors or loyalists, in any great number, the marines have the advantage. 

Now some opponents in detail...

Chaos

The fluff and reality of the 40k world tells us a few things. Chaos are a threat to the Imperium and they seem to launch themselves at said Imperium at every chance they get. However, have you noted the following... every time they are turned back... but why? Total unorganisation and destruction as soon as the leadership is cut off, destroyed or forced to a defeat. Hey Daemon Prince, leading another black crusade? Cool, just don't lose a battle ok man, because if you do 500000 of us are going to say we followed the wrong guy and then argue over who would make a better leader. As for traitor marines... hmmm well its been awhile but are they still recruiting? I dont see many Thousand Sons recruiting worlds.. (Thats very simplistic but entire worlds structured non changing within the eye capable of producing an economy that can be geared to war? Not according to anything I have read, its watch out the demon prince of Khorne next door covets your stuff, or its diseased and rotting, changing constantly or who cares I was looking at porn as it gives me pleasure.) Chaos is by its nature a raiding consumer, but it has to grow and grow and grow to feed, and by the time its truly a problem the Imperium sends in legions of resources to deal with the issue and its down to attrition... Marines are there, and the Guard... resources of raiders vs Imperium even on a black crusade means Marines win due to sheer resource back up.

Eldar.

As described above although technologically advanced, eldar losses cannot be replaced as easily or with the manpower over 1,000 chapters can deliver. I do agree that the eldar are a force to be contended with, however against a few chapters a craft world will always be bleeding its life blood literally away in any protracted war. The Marine response of send more Chapters means eventually it will end in Marine win. Not to mention their support from the Guard and Fleet. Simple economics means the Marines and the greater Imperium will triumph here against a craft world. Even its the size of a planet... the Imperium has more planets, more things that go bang and numbers will overwhelm with the tech levels of the Marines being rather effective against even the most advanced eldar tech.

For this excercise I will stop here for detailing individual races. I am sure that there are those amongst the readers who will disagree or say you didnt speak about the Tau or the blah blah etc. But read on and take a look at the following general points too.

Economics.

Nobody can argue that the Imperiums economy is the galactic powerhouse at the end of the 41M. In fact its out of control... the fluff talks about scribes catching up on work hundreds if not thousands of years behind. Tithes being collected and distributed to worlds which have fallen years ago etc. But to my point.. No other Government can outrival the Imperiums ability to produce, govern and wage war along multiple fronts in a galaxy wide contest while supplying Marines with equipment, recruits and more guns! Orks dont produce... they grow like mushrooms, but like Chaos see above they have no galaxy spanning government to direct them. Technically the marines do.. 12 lords of terra. They have the might of the entire Imperium economy standing behind them to continue to wage war. No other race has that type of power to sustain them period. 

General Comparisons to the Pax Romana and Pax Britanica

In our own world you could consider the Marines as either the Roman Legions of the Empire or the British Fleet after Trafalgar. Both were the most advanced fighting forces of their time and able to defeat any enemy that was put against them. But neither force was all consuming or being able to be everywhere at once, it was used where it was needed to enforce the central governments will and carry it out by superior technological and economic skill and organization. 

But what about....

I am well aware that there are hundreds of arguments about tyranids, tau and whatever else is out there stopping marines from being a true force of power. It could go anyway... I am just pointing out what I see as reasons why the Imperium has lasted so long, why the Marines are usually victorious, and why they are effective at being the leading force in the galaxy at being able to wage war.

As for the differences between marines and guard... Marines are the scalpel cutting the flesh... the Guard are the sledge hammer you use when you really screw up and need to smash everything, the Inq.. they are the pillow you place over grandma's face when it all becomes too hard and its time to go bye bye. 

Marine Legions vs Marine Chapters...

Lets be critical and not look at who did what or what gulliman did.. But look at the facts of what he would dealt with and his mindset and why he made those choices. Purely strategically and politically.

1. Big nasty powerful legions had just about destroyed the Imperium. They are therefore a threat as well as its greatest protection. Lets keep them protectors but reduce them in size so individually they cannot rise above anyone and become a new threat to the Pax Imperialis.

2. Dad's Dead! There is no clear line of succession as the most likely candidate turned traitor. How do I stop the remaining sibblings from squabbling and reduce them in personal power, but at the same time keep them striving toward our former goals of a golden age for Mankind? Split em up! divide them and restrict us all, so nobody has an advantage. As I have the most toys at the moment, I have a good chance of this working... and if I split my toys then the others cant complain too much.

3. Imperial Fleet big.... nasty able to dominate the galaxy.. (Note to gulliman, next time build more ships!) Lets keep this out of the hands of the most able bodied warriors but keep it loyal and under its own leadership. That way its effective but able to be used for what it was meant for and not ZOMG ROGAL HAS ALL HIS MENZ IN MY BASES I WILL GO SHRED HIS PURPLZ.. LETS GO IN OUR GOTHIC CLASS WARSHIPS! SAID LEMAN... 

4. It was a choice that has allowed thousands of chapters probably to thrive and develop and even specialize into different fighting forces that are capable of coming together at times of great need to repel galactic threats. 

I think he made a great move, and didnt allow his own Legion to take over as it would have been fairly easy to do, or cause another civil war.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> As for the legions turning into chapters... I thought that was fucking stupid. Not only did they reduce the power of a force, but they also put restrictions on the power of what their units were composed of. Before this, units in many ways could be described as havocs/veterans units. They could use lots of heavy weapons, have skills, have veterans, have a variety of close combat weapons. Imagine playing the game with these units.... fricken awesome. Because of "fears" they decided to reduce their power capability over the universe.


I think it was the best option for the Imperium to-be-honest. The Legions had spear-headed the Great Crusade and conquered the galaxy. Chapters act as support for the Imperial Guard (most of the time) - preforming and winning battles that the Guard would struggle to do on their own.

Following the Heresy it was a wise move to split the legions, each Primarch with a legion at his command could destory hundreds of systems and fragment further the broken Imperium (following the Heresy).

If Horus fell, what was stopping one of the remaining loyal primarchs falling to Chaos and starting a new Heresy? Their power and influence had to be reduced.



space cowboy said:


> (remember, the Emperor was still able to talk and provide his opinion and advice for quite a long time after being set up on the Golden Throne.)


Source? According to Horus Heresy: Collected Visions the Emperor never spoke again upon being connected to the Throne. Malcador the Hero reserved a tiny bit of 'life force' which allowed the Emperor to regain consciousness for a few moments in order to give instructions to Dorn to change the Golden Throne into a life-support machine, then never spoke again, and went unconscious.

Remember the wounds the Emperor endured from Horus; Lost an eye, lost an arm, broken back etc..


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

OP you forget one thing, we are just used to tihnking of marines as strong humans, or s4 t4 3+ save models, but in fluff-reality its not that one marine can take down 100 nids before dieing, its that a wall of marines can hold off an unlimited ammount of enemies, basicaly fighting ountil they run out of ammo, and then fighting ountil their chainswords brake, and then fighting ountil their arms fall off (basicaly just takes longer for them to kill enemy then lol). Yeh, thats what a marine is in fluff, just imagine spartans fighting persians or smth, except spartans would be the ones with ships and huge supplies.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I see why they did it. As their "excuse" is to limit power to the legions. But look at the problem now. They are almost at the verge of extinction with the ork, tyrnaid, chaos threat. Not to mention some pesty races they have to deal with. Fear will destroy reasoning. The reason why most of the legions turned was for the empyreams "lack of" in some certain way. I disagree with the idea they should be afraid of the astartes. If you fuck with them... expect to pay the price. 
I remember one instince where this world was facing genesteeler threat and this chapter came in and destroyed it, anyhow the world went crazy and starting looking at the space marines as assholes and started rioting... like the most elite warriors in the galaxy are going to take that shit. Well they paid for that. (This is a story in the Chaos codex).
Almost every other chaos chapter was neglected or forced to join chaos. The problem lies within keeping moral and discipline within the astartes ranks, not limiting their power because the empyream wants to be lazy and not solve the real problem. 

Fact comes down if a legion is going to join chaos then it will, so by limiting their power your not solving that, they are just going to change their structure and organization and mutate them more powerful. Not only that but they will get daemons within their ranks. So while the structure and organization limits loyalist astartes it doesn't limit renegade and chaos ones.


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## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> Fact comes down if a legion is going to join chaos then it will, so by limiting their power your not solving that, they are just going to change their structure and organization and mutate them more powerful. Not only that but they will get daemons within their ranks. So while the structure and organization limits loyalist astartes it doesn't limit renegade and chaos ones.


actually i would argue that by limiting their size, you reduce the impact any one chapter would have by turning traitor. For example Bum ticklers United chapter turn traitor and go to fight the next system over, 1000 marines are easier to hold off then 1,000,000 marines. Also as people have said 1000 marines is a small number to what are out there (0.1% of the generally stated figure (1000X10000)) so if they do turn traitor (and like you said if they will, they will) then 1000 marines added onto chaos's side doesnt tip the scales at all. So while the limitations may not affect any existing chaos legions, it buggers up the future legions.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Well then I can argue that almost impossible to do. When the horus heresy started it was extremley difficult to get a whole legion to join chaos. The traitor legions lost MAJOR components to their legions as they sided against the empyream. Almost half the books on the heresy speak of large components of the traitor legions attacking and destroying so much of the legions strength. They suffered tremendously. Again, the problem is neglegence with treatment to the legions not the "fear" that a chapter will go renegade. You would have to get the primarch to turn. Which is impossible unless you go back to that "neglegence." If a primarch turned he would take everything he got including his successor chapters.


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

lawrence96 said:


> actually i would argue that by limiting their size, you reduce the impact any one chapter would have by turning traitor. For example Bum ticklers United chapter turn traitor and go to fight the next system over, 1000 marines are easier to hold off then 1,000,000 marines. Also as people have said 1000 marines is a small number to what are out there (0.1% of the generally stated figure (1000X10000)) so if they do turn traitor (and like you said if they will, they will) then 1000 marines added onto chaos's side doesnt tip the scales at all. So while the limitations may not affect any existing chaos legions, it buggers up the future legions.


I agree with your points. I do not see any scenario where any errant marine chapter could continue to replenish losses inside the boundaries of the Imperium. Your looking for raw recruits, 10 years old min, great bodies and able to add 1 bolter shell plus 1 bolter shell means 2 dead things when i shoot em. Yes several worlds will produce them, all will in tiny numbers... but recruiting enmasse from an Imperial world for centuries without discovery by the Inq? by traders? and where are the facilities to clone? grow? its not like when you turn traitor you go, ok I am taking my bat and ball and going home and I want you to send all my stuff from Mars which i put my name on to me in the mail by post or I will cry. Its a matter of the tech priests saying... well we have a sample of your gene seed, truth be told if we really want too be bitches about this, we will grow a chapter to come hunt you down from your own stock. (highly unlikely but funny idea). You also have the problem of replenishing power armor once you turn traitor. Although i cant find any details, they must be making it somewhere, probably on forge worlds. Why? Why wouldnt you.... If I was the administratum the first thing I would be ensuring that I have is the keys to all the cabinets and forge worlds making armor and and give it out to replace losses. If marines cant replace armor... they are really stuffed.

Also by limiting the possible scenario's to say 5-6 chapters going awol at any one moment... (As in a specific instance over a specific issue) Even then, the Imperium would just send 10 more chapters to deal with it. I am pretty sure fluff wise most of the modern traitor chapters are dealt with very harshly... tyrant of baddab or whoever he was? fire phoenix chapter? (I am old I cant recall details) its a matter of almost pride for a loyal chapter to be assigned to go rid your dirty cousins who have started inbreeding again...


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## inquisitoryorei (Nov 25, 2007)

ok, all good points. as far as huge losses=less marines goes......not a problem for most chapters. they have scouts who are only a step or two from become full marines. some chapters actually have more scouts than marines, which is allowed. so the limit of 1000 is only for "marines". scouts are not limited at all.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

You guys also seem to forget that the "1000 marine limit" is not strictly enforced. Last time they were checked the Black Templars were running at about 6000 marines.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Thats only because his chapter just like that of the space wolves are distributed throughout the emyream into crusades. The only chapter in which has broken the rules is the Dark Angels. But thats because they have the death wing and ravenwing. Which could also be debatably different armies.


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## Android089 (Apr 21, 2009)

"Whilst we stand we fight, we prevail. Nothing shall stay our wrath."
Marneus Calgar


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

hahaha. until fulgrim goes and kicks his ass just like his primarch


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