# Rhino VS Razorback



## Felsi the Doombringer (Apr 22, 2010)

Hey guys,

As I have played Space Marines for, oh, say, 4 months, I have a slight dillema. The issue at hand is that I have no idea which troop carrier to use, the Rhino or Razorback. So here's my list of pro's and cons

PRO RAZORBACK
1. Hello, twin linked lascannons?
2. Heavy anti armor

CON RAZORBACK

1. The infernal contraption can't nearly hold enough troops
2. 0 fire points. What good will a tank be if it can't shoot?


PRO RHINO
1. 10 troops. Come on, how can you go wrong?
2. Fire points. Hello melta guns out the window

CONS RHINO
1. If I put a squad without and decent weapons in that thing, I hope it's gonna make it past turn 3.
2. Can't really defend itself well. Stormbolter and Hunter Killer missle included.

Or, there is the option of 

DROP POD

With a Thunderfire dropping on my opponents, there is a slight chance that all of them will be decimated. 

Current Opponents: Tau, Space marines, Eldar, Tyranids, Deamonhunters, and Possibly Necrons.


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## Jangalak (Feb 1, 2009)

I have had some decent success running my tac sqds in razorbacks.

I dont recommend trying to use it as a tank - the AV 11 leaves it vulnerable to too many weapons and the TLLC option is one of the most expensive in the game at an extra 40 points on top of the basic Rhino cost. I usually go for the TLHB, at an extra 5pts it is great value. I use other options for popping enemy armour which i find better value, in particular my force tends to be quite assaulty so i am generally looking to get into assault range, rather than pop them at distance with Lascannons - just my pref.

The best use of Razorbacks for me has been to combat squad my tac sqd. I split them into an assaulty unit which goes in the RB and send them forward for an obj/to attack the enemy, and to leave the other five marines with one of the heavy weapons (i always go for the ML - the mix of anti-armour and anti-infantry works well for me). I always try to leave these at my home base and in cover. 

I tend to run 2 RBs in my 1500-1750 list. I send the RBs forward, firing all the way, leaving 2 five man ML sqds back at my base to fire away as long as they can. 

Another option is to use the Rhino to 'castle-up' on an obj, but i find that if i can keep 10 marines with 2 MLs in cover, they last just as long as if i had spent another 35 on a rhino for them. The RBs rolling fwd and firing usually allows me to get another 10 marines on an obj, possibly with the RB to act as a 'bunker' / shield / supporting fire.

I mostly play against Guard and this has been effective, the RBs, with heavy weapons held back is generally accepted as being effective. Give it a go for a few games and see if you can get it working for you.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

the problem is allot of people compare the two vehicles to doing the same job, which they don't, a razorback with a unit inside paired with a rhino with a unit inside is very useful, alone there both pretty useless at anything except just moving and dumping.

I also wouldn't ever bother with the twin-linked lascannons, its not a tank, so it shouldn't be used like one, just buy a predator with a turret lascannon to roll forwards with them.


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> I also wouldn't ever bother with the twin-linked lascannons, its not a tank, so it shouldn't be used like one, just buy a predator with a turret lascannon to roll forwards with them.


Actually, according to the rules, it _is_ *classed as a Tank*, and a Twin-Linked Lascannon on a Razorback can come in very handy, not to mention simply adding a Twin-Linked Lascannon to the Razorback is 70 points cheaper than getting a whole Predator just to have it, never mind the sponsons in addition. 

In fact, considering how the Heavy Bolter isn't a defensive weapon either, then the way you're putting it sounds like you should just get a Rhino if you're never going to fire it.

Finally, the way you're putting it sounds as if all you do with a Tank is sit and shoot. *This is a bad tactic*. Even tanks should be mobile, not necessarily constantly, but you should move every now and then.

Put simply: it _is_ a Tank, Tanks should be mobile, the Twin-Linked Lascannon does have a use on it, and it's cheaper to have the Twin-Linked Lascannon on the Razorback than getting a Predator for it.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Razorbacks are very useful for Long Fang/Devastator squads, as once you have found an ample firing position, you can sit the tank beside them and rain extra heavy weapon fire on the enemy. i go for a TLLC on my anti tanks long fangs and a TL HB on my anti-infantry squad, that way they both have an extra heavy weapon that can be used for their task. rhinos are great for dumping tac squads on an objective and then blocking enemy fire while your squad holds the objective. both have their uses, but i think the rhino is certainly the best troop transport and it is cheaper then the razor, but lacks the ability to give supporting fire


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

No love for the las/plas RBs?

In any case, remember that a rhino with a squad in it can be a move or shoot pillbox for the MM you've got tucked away.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Cato Sicarius said:


> Actually, according to the rules, it _is_ *classed as a Tank*,


I was referring more to basic common sense, not rules.


Cato Sicarius said:


> not to mention simply adding a Twin-Linked Lascannon to the Razorback is 70 points cheaper than getting a whole Predator just to have it,


40pts, with allot less armour


Cato Sicarius said:


> never mind the sponsons in addition.


if its moving around with the rhino and razorback why would you buy sponsons you can't fire?


Cato Sicarius said:


> In fact, considering how the Heavy Bolter isn't a defensive weapon either, then the way you're putting it sounds like you should just get a Rhino if you're never going to fire it.


huh?, when did I say you never fire a razorback?


Cato Sicarius said:


> Finally, the way you're putting it sounds as if all you do with a Tank is sit and shoot. *This is a bad tactic*. Even tanks should be mobile, not necessarily constantly, but you should move every now and then.


huh?, when did I make it sound like you just sit and shoot?


Cato Sicarius said:


> Put simply: it _is_ a Tank,


no, its a transport, with more firepower than a rhino that carries a small unit that works great when rolling around with a rhino with a full squad.


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

You really think common sense makes a difference in this game? Where we use *dice*, and where a Grot (which in reality would be tiny and would have a small knife) can kill a Terminator (which in reality would be 8-feet tall, be tougher than a modern day tank, and would simply step on it).

I get what you mean about the points, but you're wrong in 2 ways. It would be 30 points, and I wasn't meaning "the full Razorback is 70 less expensive than the full Predator." I meant the *upgrade itself* would be 70 points less expensive than the full Predator.

Why would it be moving around *with the Rhino/Razorback*? I realise I said it should move, but moving it with the transports isn't always the best idea (nor necessarily a good idea in general).

Well, if you aren't going to put the Lascannon on, I assume that's because you aren't going to use it on the move. If you *would* fire the Heavy Bolter, then why not have the Twin-Linked Lascannons for extra anti-tank?

Well, supposedly according to you, you shouldn't use a Razorback like a Tank. A Razorback is meant to move around, so if you *should* move around a Razorback, then you *shouldn't* move around a Tank, get my meaning?

It's a Tank. Whether it's *also a Transport* or not is irrelevant.


Finally, one final clause: logic doesn't necessarily apply to a game; it does however apply to your words.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Cato Sicarius said:


> You really think common sense makes a difference in this game? Where we use *dice*, and where a Grot (which in reality would be tiny and would have a small knife) can kill a Terminator (which in reality would be 8-feet tall, be tougher than a modern day tank, and would simply step on it).


no, and yes, 40k may not have common sense, but most humans would call a razorback an AFV, not an MBT, and would use it like they do in reality, to support the unit it carries and any other units its going around with until they reach the objective, drop off its unit, then pull back to a hull down position.

and that can be applied to 40k and it is how I feel a razoback should be used, not roaming around the board hunting tanks like a tank would


Cato Sicarius said:


> Why would it be moving around *with the Rhino/Razorback*? I realise I said it should move, but moving it with the transports isn't always the best idea (nor necessarily a good idea in general).


I would move it with the transports for 2 reasons, 1 to support the troops against tanks, transports and dreads, 2 to support the tank with infantry instead of leaving it all alone to get killed in close combat because there was nothing nearby to stop it

not moving it with the transports or anything which can engage infantry is generally a bad idea, if supporting your units with other units is considered a bad idea in 40k then my god people must really be dumber than I first imagined.


Cato Sicarius said:


> Well, if you aren't going to put the Lascannon on, I assume that's because you aren't going to use it on the move. If you *would* fire the Heavy Bolter, then why not have the Twin-Linked Lascannons for extra anti-tank?


so if I don't use a lascannon I'm not going to move?, your sentence makes no sense.

and dealing with armour is why I'd have the pred nearby, hunter killers on the APC and AFV and a missile launcher in the 10 man squad


Cato Sicarius said:


> Well, supposedly according to you, you shouldn't use a Razorback like a Tank. A Razorback is meant to move around, so if you *should* move around a Razorback, then you *shouldn't* move around a Tank, get my meaning?


no, because a razorback is not a tank, it may be a tank ruleswise, but gamewise it performs entirely different duties, its transports a small unit to an objective (probably held already by a larger unit) and then pulls back to give supporting fire, not roam around hunting tanks


Cato Sicarius said:


> It's a Tank. Whether it's *also a Transport* or not is irrelevant.


how you go about using it on the board makes it highly relevant, if you start using your transports as front line tanks, then expect them to have a very meaningless and quick death


Cato Sicarius said:


> Finally, one final clause: logic doesn't necessarily apply to a game; it does however apply to your words.


logic always applies to a game, it may not apply to 40ks background, but if you start playing any game without logic you have already lost.

logic stops you making stupid moves like moving a razorback into LOS with a land raider or leman russ and expecting to come out on top of this little "duel", when logic would tell you that your Razorback is about to die unless you pull it back and let the real tanks handle this.


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

Look, it appears obvious to me that neither of us is going to back down in this situation. Each of us is finding holes in the other's logic based on personal preference only, so the only logical conclusion is to agree to disagree and move on.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Erm, they don't actually hold up the line of battle. They're no more survivable than a normal Rhino. While they may be able to shoot a fair amount, you're wasting the transport capabilties of the model if you're using it as a battletank. It's a way of trading squad size and a firing point for a mounted weapon. You'd field it like an APC.

It's not like, say, a Falcon, y'know? Heck, even Wave Serpents aren't bonifide line of battle vehicles.

Chimeras at least fake is a bit better by being more duable when you can force a forward facing.


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

Cyklown said:


> Erm, they don't actually hold up the line of battle. They're no more survivable than a normal Rhino. While they may be able to shoot a fair amount, you're wasting the transport capabilties of the model if you're using it as a battletank. It's a way of trading squad size and a firing point for a mounted weapon. You'd field it like an APC.
> 
> It's not like, say, a Falcon, y'know? Heck, even Wave Serpents aren't bonifide line of battle vehicles.
> 
> Chimeras at least fake is a bit better by being more duable when you can force a forward facing.


Define "using it as a battletank". Really, when you say that you're saying "sitting and sniping things it can kill", which is not really what I meant. I meant moving it 6" a turn, so it can still fire the top gun (which is what you should do with a Razorback regardless of weapon-loadout), *and* shooting at things it can kill. If you aren't gonna bother doing that, get a Rhino - it lacks the useless (in that situation) top gun, has a larger transport capacity, and is cheaper money- and points-wise.


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## Drizzt_13 (May 22, 2009)

My opinion on this is that if you are taking something to support a tactical squad go ahead and take a rhino shooting out the top is more important then a heavy bolter. The Razorback is too expensive for that if it has a TLLC or Las/Plas.

Hyper competitive players however really like it and here's why. They have realized that tac marines and scouts kind of suck as far as troops go, but you also have to take two minimal troops regardless of whether you want to or not. They also have adopted the approach of total mech, with nearly all the firepower coming from tanks with a few infantry with meltaguns riding along to kill the heavy tanks and be scoring. 

For this reason theyw ill generally take las plas razorback with minimal tac squads sitting inside them to be scoring and occupy the minimal troop requirements and then Inquisitorial storm troopers in rhinos with 2 meltaguns for more troops. 

The razorback is more survivable as it is surrounded by a vast amount of more potent armor that opponent will more likely focus on. A lascannon and plasma gun plus transported troops generate a decent amount amount of firepower and the res tof the list provides the rest. 

In your average list I'd take a rhino but if you're running full mech hyper competitive style lists go with the razorbacks.


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## Arkanor (Jan 1, 2010)

Cyklown said:


> It's not like, say, a Falcon, y'know? Heck, even Wave Serpents aren't bonifide line of battle vehicles.


Wave serpents are pretty damn close, they have armor equivalent to line of battle tanks in other armies (and better than Land Raiders against railguns and melta). Plus we can have pretty much as many as we want.

Falcon isn't really too much closer to a main battle tank (less durable without the holofields), I'd like one with no transport capacity but loaded with guns though.


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## Arkanor (Jan 1, 2010)

Cyklown said:


> It's not like, say, a Falcon, y'know? Heck, even Wave Serpents aren't bonifide line of battle vehicles.


Wave serpents are pretty damn close, they have armor equivalent to line of battle tanks in other armies (and better than Land Raiders against railguns and melta). Plus we can have pretty much as many as we want.

Falcon isn't really too much closer to a main battle tank (less durable without the holofields), I'd like one with no transport capacity but more firepower personally (and friggin' BS4).


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## Larrick (Apr 25, 2010)

Well one of the main points of the Rhino is that it carries 10 units vs 6 for the Razonback. 

Now if your using combat squads.. which for a free flamer and missile launcher is not a bad deal. So the Rhino with that setup can either shoot the special weapon and a bolter, or the RB can shoot a TLHB or TLLC.

No for range the Bolter, FL, PG out of a moving Rhino will have 12' range... while the flamer even less.

Razorback HB 36 Inches Twin Linked, TLLC 48 Twin Linked. 

In combat squads your not going to be able to take advantage of the 10 man carry Rhino anyway.

So to me if you use combat squads the Razorback seems better for a dedicated 10 man squad the Rhino...


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