# ? for Experienced Chaos SM Players: how to get into CC



## ufoturtle081 (Feb 10, 2011)

So I am considering starting a CSM army, but one thing about them keeps boggling me: how can I ensure I get into the assult w/out open-topped vehicles and fleet???

I have been playing 40k for about a year and been playing Dark Eldar the whole time; so as you can imagine, I love getting into the melee with the enemy quick. And I have heard that CSM can be a very capable CC force. But I just don't see how to pull it off.

LR's just don't seem like a good option: if I am moving at crusing speed towards the enemy, then I am not fireing all the fantastic/exspensive weapons on the LR.

CSM Bikes just seem to expensive consideirng they only have one extra attack over their Smurf SM counterparts.

Winged DP may work consideirng I could jsut have them get a cover save by hiding behind Rhinos as they advance.

I guess I could do the same for Raptors as I would do for Winged DPs.

I mean w/ Dark Eldar, I have a charge range of 22-28 inches: very little can run away once I get in position the preceding turn. BUT CSM don't have fleet and cannot assult out of vehicles. So with there 12" assult range, there is nothing stoping the enemy from just moving away and opening fire on my CC unit for another turn. I have a decent idea how to pull it off w/ LRs, Raptors, bikes, and winged Deamon Princes, but how could I pull off assults w/ units in Rhinos, such as berzerkers and PF wielding NMs? 


Please inform me how so that I can finally decide on whether to move forward for the Dark Lords.


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## Xela (Dec 22, 2010)

I don't play CSM, but maybe I can help, i play DE too and the biggest difference are our saves. Yes CSM don't have fleet (unless you get lucky with posessed) and they can't charge out of a vehicle, but an all mech army or even just walking your army towards the enemy is viable. Having a 3+ save all around the army helps immensely. CSM can't charge from a rhino, but they can get out, survive the shooting and then do some killin. That's kinda how I view it. Also Daemon princes with wings get into combat reeeeeeeeeally quickly so they're a great choice.


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## Tanrel (May 8, 2008)

You can assault out of a rhino as long as you pile out when the rhino doesn't move, right? Thats what the usual strategy is.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

Tanrel said:


> You can assault out of a rhino as long as you pile out when the rhino doesn't move, right? Thats what the usual strategy is.


This. Or Land Raiders. Wings for your princes.


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## Unforgiven302 (Oct 20, 2008)

CSM's can be assault orientated, but not without proper planning. They will never be as good as say, tyranids or dark eldar when it comes to the actual moving across the board to get into close combat. That is where you will feel the pinch so to speak. The lack of open topped or fast vehicles is the hurdle you will have to deal with by planning your first two player turns ahead of time. 

1) Foot slogging isn't ideal, but can be accomplished. A 3+ power armor save is very good in this situation. Again, not ideal, but you can make it to CC if you play the board to its fullest capabilities. 

2) Running in the shooting phase is no guarantee, but it can get you that much closer if the dice cooperate. Foot slogging is bearable with the cover save rules and power armor saves, but it can be painfully slow at times and no guarantee on the total distance the unit will cover. A last resort really.

3) Rhino transports. Cheap, cheerful and plentiful because it is a dedicated transport. No, they are not assault vehicles or open topped so you cannot assault out of them if you moved the transport with the unit inside that same turn, but, by going full out in turn one and turn two, (popping smoke when advantageous and using terrain to your advantage) by your player turn 2 or 3 they should be in good territory to disembark and assault in that turn or the next. 

4) The big Land Raider. An assault vehicle, heavy support choice and even a dedicated transport for terminators. These you should be going balls out with with a load of assault troops inside, either terminators or even berzerkers, and by turn 2 you can move, disembark and assault in the same turn. Do not get fooled into using them as a lascannon platform first, it isn't the best use for them. Run and dump the assault squad first, and then use it for fire support after. The Land Raider is expensive points wise but it is also the toughest nut to crack with AV 14 all around. Not everyone likes them because of the points cost, but if you want to run a CC themed CSM army, look here for the goods.

5) Defilers. Yup, they are big but being a walker it is allowed to fire the big gun and still move and assault in the same turn. Rules wise they are better than a CSM dreadnought.

6) Dreadnoughts. Not an ideal choice here. Cheap and deadly in CC when given duel DCCW's but that damn frenzy rule really makes them suck at the worst moment. Use with caution or only if you like crazy randomness in your game. (I run 2 of them, but I am silly like that!)

7) Raptors. Not much here for a jump pack unit. Very basic in rules and stat's which really leaves you wanting more for your points. If you take a lord with a JP and dual LC's and attach him to a squad of 5 with a champ with some LC's also, they become a serious threat. You can deep strike in behind your opponent and can cause some real issues for them. But, they attract a ton of attention and may not last through a round of concentrated gunfire. If you run/jump them behind a rhino or land raider they can spring up and over at a good opportunity to lend a hand, but unsupported and on their own, they fall like domino's. 

8) Possessed. Like the dreadnought, (but not as severe) possessed are a bit random. Rolling a D6 for an upgrade after they are placed on the table can be completely frustrating at times. Like if you roll a 1 and get scouts. They are already on the table, but do not benefit from the scout deployment... dumb. But they can be quite good in CC. Load them in a rhino and haul ass up the board! 

9) Berzerkers. A true dedicated CC troop choice. Lots of attacks, power weapon/fist upgrades for a champ and furious charge make them a real threat. Again, rhinos or land raiders to get them up the table quick like. 

10) Smoke launchers. transports have them, use them. It isn't a cure all, but it can work.

11) Possession. A possessed Land Raider ignores shaken and stunned results, not including the passengers unfortunately. But it keeps the tank a' rollin', and a rollin' tank is better than one that is stuck due to a glancing hit.

12) Extra armor. Better than nothing on a rhino, but again, not a cure all.

13) Dozer blades. Can keep a tank moving while in difficult terrain, not terrific, but an option none the less.

14) Run two identical daemon princes with wings and lash of submission. When you can move your princes 12 inches then force your opponent to you with a double lash move, you do not need to worry about covering the table, they come to you. It is a "power list" build, but for the CSM dex, it is the only one! 

You have a ton of CC options to choose from, and a couple of very solid ways of getting there. Proper planning and deployment are key here. Unlike your Dark Eldar, they can't wizz around the board and reorganize from a less then stellar deployment. I have found that the old rhino rush tactic is the best way to do it. Yes it is a blunt and brainless tactic, but it works. Run and dump, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead and disgorge your units into the fray. 

Your biggest thing to remember is, CSM's are not Dark Eldar, they will play differently and you will need to have a different mindset when fielding them. Change is good!


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

I'm gonna bump Unforgiven's post.

mainly your gonna take rhinos...lots and lots of rhinos.


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## ufoturtle081 (Feb 10, 2011)

Xela said:


> I don't play CSM, but maybe I can help, i play DE too and the biggest difference are our saves. Yes CSM don't have fleet (unless you get lucky with posessed) and they can't charge out of a vehicle, but an all mech army or even just walking your army towards the enemy is viable. Having a 3+ save all around the army helps immensely. CSM can't charge from a rhino, but they can get out, survive the shooting and then do some killin. That's kinda how I view it. Also Daemon princes with wings get into combat reeeeeeeeeally quickly so they're a great choice.


It's funny, when I was comtemplating how I would get the CSMs into combat, I never really factored in that they would survive the shooting better as they approch. 

Armor is really a new unfamilier concept for me due to playing DE for so long. I have always used cover to increase survivability since DE have the mobility to use it very effectivly. But like you said, even though CSMs dont have mobility like DE, they do come w/ their own armor. 

Thanks for the insight.


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## ufoturtle081 (Feb 10, 2011)

Unforgiven302 said:


> You have a ton of CC options to choose from, and a couple of very solid ways of getting there. Proper planning and deployment are key here. Unlike your Dark Eldar, they can't wizz around the board and reorganize from a less then stellar deployment. I have found that the old rhino rush tactic is the best way to do it. Yes it is a blunt and brainless tactic, but it works. Run and dump, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead and disgorge your units into the fray.
> 
> Your biggest thing to remember is, CSM's are not Dark Eldar, they will play differently and you will need to have a different mindset when fielding them. Change is good!


Thanks Unforgiven for all the great advice. Your right, change is good! Your info has given me a much better idea of how to use CSM units.

I must admit, part of the reason for wanting a CSM army is just how cool the Deamon Prince model is; well, and also the chance of leading another army of bloodthirstly killers like the Dark Eldar. I should just admit it: I have a dark black soul down deep.


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## Ghost792 (Jan 6, 2010)

Possessed are really expensive and have no grenades, so keep that in mind. Dreads are usually a better choice for CC. Berzerkers make a good torrent unit and they are scoring. DP with wings a must. Kharn is also a good choice. Noise marines with a doom siren make a competent CC unit. It's up to you what you choose to use, but unlike the DE book there are choices in the Chaos book that are pretty awful. Rhinos are your best bet for getting to CC. Sure LRs are assault vehicles, but they are expensive and are pretty mediocre. The only real trick to using Rhinos is planning your assaults, but being a DE player I'm sure you do that already. Hope this helps :biggrin:


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## ufoturtle081 (Feb 10, 2011)

Ghost792 said:


> Possessed are really expensive and have no grenades, so keep that in mind. Dreads are usually a better choice for CC. Berzerkers make a good torrent unit and they are scoring. DP with wings a must. Kharn is also a good choice. Noise marines with a doom siren make a competent CC unit. It's up to you what you choose to use, but unlike the DE book there are choices in the Chaos book that are pretty awful. Rhinos are your best bet for getting to CC. Sure LRs are assault vehicles, but they are expensive and are pretty mediocre. The only real trick to using Rhinos is planning your assaults, but being a DE player I'm sure you do that already. Hope this helps :biggrin:


I see what you r saying about the LRs: that is a lot of points for a transport even if it is heavily armored. The way I see it, it will be most often moving at crusing speed for the first two turns in order to deliver its payload so that means all those guns won't be used. And once it is close to the enemy, the chance of being shot by melta weapons greatly increases; and melta has to be a LR worst nightmare. Well that and Lance, but those are not to common. I could get a decked out predator w/ lascannons and pay for a Rhino and then some for the price of a LR.


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

Basically you just wanna move forward while giving the enemy more targets than he can handle. The best way I've found is to use two winged daemon princes. They're super cheap and assuming you don't give it the MoK it will wreck anything it wants to. Stick everything that walks in a rhino and move them as close to 12'' a turn as possible while sticking close to cover in case you get blown up. Because you're not gonna get to close combat by sitting still. Remember that you don't always need to pop smoke first turn. Also don't split your army more than you have to.

Land raiders are a waste of points. They aren't equipped right to be used as an assault vehicle so just forget about them. Oblits are cheaper if you need guns

When you move your rhinos try and think about how many turns it will take to get to the enemy. If you're playin guard it will most likely take longer than if you're playin orks. Use that to determine where you move and when you pop smoke. 

Bring something that can destroy anything that can harm your rhinos. Be it oblits or outlfanking chosen 

Use cover and pray that you get first turn


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

1)Rhino camping. 2) expendable squads with IcG that hold the enemy still why you maneuver. 3)raptors, winged princes 4) Lesser daemons. 5)Land raiders (Generally overpriced considering you could outfit your entire army in rhinos for the same cost) 6)!LASH 7)every other stratagem used by assault oriented marine chapters that isn't army specific.


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## Sephyr (Jan 18, 2010)

I use a chaos land raider and it works fine. Moving 6' in the first turn lets me shoot a twin-linked lascannon at a trasnport or Land Speeder while still being out of the range of most melta, tne I can move 12' next turn for the assault proper. 

Of course, I add Daemonic Possession to it and it -really- helps in disregarding all fire that is not up-close melta. Canceling out 1/3 of the vehicle damage chart is nothing to sneeze at. 

Also, the Raider is good for target saturation. It attracts fire that could go to my Dawmon Prince, my rhinos and my oblits. Even if it is destroyed, as long as it gets my zerkers up to their target, it has done its job.


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## Ragnar (Jul 1, 2008)

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> Land Raiders. Wings for your princes.



yes, yes, and more yes. you can either go this build (2 raiders w/ zerks and 2 nurgle warptime princes) or go 2 rhino zerks and 2 rhino plague marines with lash princes


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## Malferion (Mar 9, 2011)

I just pack rhinos full with berzerkers and go forward and see how it goes. Not much of a plan, but I enjoy it. Daemon Princes always need wings or they become swiss cheese, but I like to give mine warp time instead of lash of submission, but that's just my opinion.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

The only difficult part about creating a chaos army is chosing how you approach your opponent. If your going to lash... which a lot people like, you'll probably invest many points in fire power units.

This may cause problems with using assault units like bezerkers. Plague Marines are probably better at this, because they are both good with close quarters and fire power. But if you like Over powered units like Bezerkers, then lash list probably wont work well with you.

The reason why I say this is because the thing with rhino assault, is that you should definitely have a few rhinos assaulting. Basically go twelve and pop smoke. If you have one or two in a two thousand point game, then its just not enough. They'll probably never make it.


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## uber (Feb 28, 2011)

just remember target saturation and formation. when you move your rhinos make sure to keep them in cover and minimize exposed faces. i like to drive them facing my opponents greatest guns in a single file line. that way he only gets one rhino to shoot at, and it will hopefully also be in cover.

what i have found is that there is a balance to be found between your princes and your assaulty troops. most people fear princes more and will take them out the first chance they get. 


for example, last night my opponent sped his sternguard deep just to shoot up my prince. it worked, but his sternguard was hamburger meet by the end of my turn, and they never got to shoot twice. so basically he traded a 270 point squad for a 155 point prince. i'll take that. meanwhile kharn and his zerker boys were just waiting for a chance to charge. 

never miss a chance to use your opponents mind against him. if you want to get into CC with your troops then you will have to give him something to shoot at instead that he will not be able to refuse. to my knowledge princes and defilers work best for that.


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## Supersonic Banana (Jul 23, 2010)

i second all that has been said but i'd like to add that you should always assault out of a stationary rhino rather than sitting in front of it like lemons for a turn where the enemy can just walk away and shoot the hell out of them. You really want to get the rhino as close as possible so that your intended target has no chance of getting out of your 14" charge range (2" disembark, 6" move, 6"assault).

I personally love landraiders but only ever consider them when im running a deathstar terminator squad + lord/abbadon/typhus as a raider is the only sure fire way to get them in to CC.
I have used a landraider as a distraction unit with some success by rushing one full of terminators right up the middle whlie kharn and his zerkers sneak up behind it. Kharn and his posse can then anihilate anything that your terminators couldnt reach or finish off and by the time your opponant realises your real plan its already too late. Expensive but damn it's effective.


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