# Are Chaos Daemons Safe?



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey guys.

I was having a discussion with a friend of mine this week during our 40k gaming night, and he reckons that Chaos Daemons will eventually be done away with.

He argues that in about a year or so when the new Chaos Space Marine Codex comes out, they are going to have more diverse options for Daemon Princes and Lesser Daemons that will be the start of the decline for Chaos Daemons.

Then he continued that it would be about 4-5 years before Chaos Daemons are due an update and at that point GW will just do away with the army entirely and just have Daemons (once again) being an aspect of CSM.

So I was just wondering what some of your opinions are on the subject, and if you think Chaos Daemons have a safe or unsafe future on the 40k Tabletop.

Also what do you think of them as an army in terms of having their own codex, should they? shouldn't they? 

I'm 100% biased but I love Chaos Daemons both as a codex army in their own right and from a fluff perspective.

But what do you think?

(P.S does anyone know how Chaos Daemons are doing in terms of sales, and roughly how many people play the army?)


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

Well, GW's promised not to Squat any further armies, so they're safe in that regard. They're also safe in that they won't just be made to disappear fluff-wise. They might end up rolled into a single Codex with the CSM I suppose, though remember they're also in WHFB... But even if that happens, I'm convinced you'll always be able to build a fully Daemon army.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

they'll stick around, the codex just needs to have more options and models.


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## broran (Feb 1, 2011)

they should say if for no other reasion then that they are the only army you can play in both fantasy and 40k just by switching codices


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

the only benifit of combining the 2 codexes really is to make a more diverse chaos space marine list. deamons are fine on their own, but chaos marines lack something with just generic deamons.

but following this path would be treading a finle line of making the deamons dex useless and the csm deamons pointless

[edit] unless they compile it into a mega-dex like the rumered(now debunked, obv) inqusition codex, taking nothing away from each list and only adding to them


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

I would love to say yes they're perfectly safe and will continue to be fielded as their very own list but i strongly believe we're going to have a massive change of tactic once 6th edition comes out. IIRC when codex csm was first released they said they would be swapping the list into three, one csm, one chaos deamons and one for rebels and lost and the damned. The third dex never happened and the lost and the damned and rebels are now split from each other with one only being represented in an apocalypse formation and the other being in the imperial armour books.

I wouldn't hold deamons as being a concrete thing and with the mixxed feedback i seem to hear from people who play them i really wouldn't be shocked if they were rehauled when the csm dex gets redone.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

They may not stick around as they are now, they may revert to doing a chaos army book and chaos codex, which combines daemons and mortals. 

but as daemons have been around for over 20 years realativly unchanged I think their rather safe....


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

If I say I voted no, everyone will probably think I am being slightly contradictory by saying they wont go.

I dont think they should be an army in their own right - it works for fantasy, but in 40K terms is a bit weird, they were always better off with chaos of some sort (Be it a cultist army, or chaos marines). In the 40K books it was so rare I cant even think of a time where someone didnt set them off (EG covens etc).

However, I dont think GW will get rid of them because they allow them to do something they can do at no other time, and thats update 2 armies for the price of on, 40K and fantasy.


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## arumichic (May 14, 2011)

I also think they are pretty safe, though some rules should change for them to be a little bit more than just okay and more options would be great, just not the prices for the options. But they should stick around even if it's the only fact that Fantasy also has a separate Daemon army. As a daemon player though, I would be very angry if they combined CSM and Daemons. Yes it would help the Daemons to shoot more, but you really would lose the essence of playing a "true" daemon/chaos army. Plus, if they were combined, a lot of people would probably opt more towards the CSM side than the Daemon side when building an army.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

how many pure demonic armies did you see in the previous CSM codex; how much did demons bring in cash wise?


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

More than you might think Fallen, given that (most of) the models also appeard in WHFB...


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## GreatUncleanOne (Apr 25, 2011)

My 40K chaos was roughly 50/50 of daemons/CSM. Thats the way I liked it and then they demolished my army. only plaguemarines as troops and no legion elites or heavys (wtf)

Am not sure if I want the daemons to go back in CSM codex because I know they will cock it up!


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

I am assuming the OP means combining the codexes back into one instead of having a separate codex. 

I would love to see them combined and the flavor of chaos taken back to what they used to be. I am a big fan of a mini-dex released for each chaos god.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

They have no business being by themselves. Only in the recent fluff can they even exist without having a mortal conduit bring them around.


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## Boc (Mar 19, 2010)

LordWaffles said:


> They have no business being by themselves. Only in the recent fluff can they even exist without having a mortal conduit bring them around.


This.

They _should_ be rolled up into the CSM codex, as well as 'cultist' troops. I know this has been gone over a million times in a million threads, but still...

Here's the way I see it: In all of the BL literature, how often do you actually see/hear of Chaos Daemons working independently? Never (that I know of). They are always either in concert with CSM or with cultist support, since they _need_ their assistance to even be summoned from the warp to begin with (at least 99.9999% of the time.)

With the exception of Jubal in the HH series, not once were Chaos Daemons able to spontaneously erupt into reality, so it just makes sense that, although awesome as they may be, they would have to be rolled up into another codex, at least in the 40K 'verse.


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## Scathainn (Feb 21, 2010)

I think they SHOULD be rolled into C:CSM, but they won't be, for reasons Waffles and Boc stated above.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

They should be put into the Chaos Marine Codex, but it should still be possible to take nothing but Daemon units. Introduce a rule that if there are no Icons on the table (or in the army) that Daemons Deep Strike normally and voila, people that want to play a pure Daemon army can and those that want a mix of both can have that, too.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I have no interest at all in playing Chaos Space Marines so obviously I think they should stay as a seperate codex.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

I'd like them to stay separate, if only to avoid endless months of Daemon players bitching about the fact that there's six marine codices, and theirs gets rolled in with CSM.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

coke123 said:


> I'd like them to stay separate, if only to avoid endless months of Daemon players bitching about the fact that there's six marine codices, and theirs gets rolled in with CSM.


There are like, six Daemon players worldwide. I'd be more worried about the people who just complain for the sake of complaining.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> There are like, six Daemon players worldwide. I'd be more worried about the people who just complain for the sake of complaining.


Given that there are more than 900 threads in the Chaos Daemons Army list sub-forum, I think we can assume that there are more, a lot more, than six players worldwide.

A mate of mine plays a truly devastating Khorne Daemons army, so I don't see why, if it's possible to create powerful lists, they should be rolled up into the CSM codex.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Seriously before the new CD codex how often did warp storms hit planets? Not damn often I know that much, and that is the only instance where you will see anything beyond a dp or a few lesser daemons sulking around.

The reason daemons work in WFB is because 40% of the planet is virtually a open warp rift.

Still I prefer a small amount of overlap in each codex rather then them being recombined. Something like a CSM list can take one CD choice from the elites or troops selection, or allowing/forcing CD player to take a unit of cultists or CSMs.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

The Sullen One said:


> Given that there are more than 900 threads in the Chaos Daemons Army list sub-forum, I think we can assume that there are more, a lot more, than six players worldwide.
> 
> A mate of mine plays a truly devastating Khorne Daemons army, so I don't see why, if it's possible to create powerful lists, they should be rolled up into the CSM codex.


I know, it was a joke. I play Daemons, so I understand why people would like the army.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

The Sullen One said:


> Given that there are more than 900 threads in the Chaos Daemons Army list sub-forum, I think we can assume that there are more, a lot more, than six players worldwide.


I should confess that all 900+ are posted by me and my 5 other alternate profiles. I just didn't want to be alone :cray:.

I'm glad to hear that people actually enjoy Chaos Daemons, and I agree that why should Space Marines have Six Codices and Chaos only have one?

The (newish) fluff for Chaos Daemons (somewhat) clearly explains that Daemon Armies are entirely distinct from Mortal Chaos Armies,

They can cut through into realspace for lots of reasons, its just the most common is some nutjob or schizo summoning them because he is a follower of chaos or hears voices.

But there are other subtle rules I would imagine that would allow a Daemon Host to pour through the immaterium and into realspace. You just need to think outside the box.

Maybe a mortal king said his fortress world could never be stormed, maybe Tzeentch Daemon's had infiltrated the planet centuries ago, sewing corruption, maybe its just by pure chance that a hole to realspace opens up and a horde or various Daemons of all types pours through for some fun.

I just love finally having a Chaos Codex that is full of options, cool looking models and is (somewhat) competitive.

Daemons aren't CSM, they were around before CSM, they will be around long after CSM. So IMO they should be combined into just aspects of CSM.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

deamons armies have been kicking around since the start so i really cant see why anyone would think otherwise, the only real difference is the established deamon units got a book of there own, they do need more deamon engines in my opinion to make them a little more 40k and less WF, they should move some of the nice fruity ones from FW to plastic.


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## Caliban (Nov 27, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> Seriously before the new CD codex how often did warp storms hit planets? Not damn often I know that much, and that is the only instance where you will see anything beyond a dp or a few lesser daemons sulking around.


Grey Knights have a whole codex, yet there's only something like 2'000 of them meaning there's many more models than there are knights in fluff. so what Daemon incurssins are rare, fluff doesn't have to always add up


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

There should be options to either take csm with demons csm on their own or demons on their own. I have a friend im trying to get to play and he already wants demons. so they should stay, if only for him and the other 6.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Either buff them up big time or cut them out because holy crap, I've never encountered anything that sucked quite so much as Chaos Demons. I've never lost against them (and I'm not much of a veteran gamer either) and the one time I had a Demon player as my ally they got nowhere at all.


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## Scathainn (Feb 21, 2010)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> I've never encountered anything that sucked quite so much as Chaos Demons


*cough*Necrons/WitchHunters*cough*


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> Either buff them up big time or cut them out because holy crap, I've never encountered anything that sucked quite so much as Chaos Demons. I've never lost against them (and I'm not much of a veteran gamer either) and the one time I had a Demon player as my ally they got nowhere at all.


How do Chaos Daemons suck?

Power Weapon Wielding Troops? Customizable MC Daemon Princes?
Skulltaker who kills anyone on a 4+? fiends? Bloodcrushers?

Its a really good codex that's main weakness is that it has to entirely deepstrike and in two halves, but if you play them right you can minimise loses.

Its called ... whats the word I'm looking for? ... skill ... yes thats it.

Daemons aren't point and click, they require skill.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> Daemons aren't point and click, they require skill.


So, basically, they arent space marines then. :laugh:


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## Scathainn (Feb 21, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> How do Chaos Daemons suck?


*Unmechable.* 

Lack of reliable anti-tank to be able to deal with mech except for Tzeentch. 

Overcosted units. 

Many units completely useless or made useless due to prevalent themes in most other armies (Beasts of Nurgle, Seekers, Soul Grinders, Flesh Hounds, Nurglings).



D-A-C said:


> Power Weapon Wielding Troops? Overpriced for only a 5+ save and no transport, no ability to shoot.
> Customizable MC Daemon Princes? Only Tzeentch princes are good.
> Skulltaker who kills anyone on a 4+? Can be pimp-slapped by anyone with a 'Fist.
> fiends? Bloodcrushers? These two are probably some of the better choices in the dex so valid point.





D-A-C said:


> main weakness is that it has to entirely deepstrike and in two halves


This is a ridiculously prevalent weakness. The fact that only a random half of your army shows up one turn is practically begging for a gunline army to tear you a new asshole.


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

Scathainn said:


> *Unmechable.*
> 
> Lack of reliable anti-tank to be able to deal with mech except for Tzeentch.
> 
> ...


how about how almost every save is invunerable and immune to instant death?


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

Of corse Daemons have problems considering this is only their first attempt at being a stand alone army, but still, we just have to remember;
- Tzeentch is fickle... Most of the time he's on your side, but sometimes he just likes to challenge you, or maybe you've done something to piss him off?!!

- Sure we stand about dumbfounded for a turn with all of our assault units. We're still ace at deep striking into terrain though! (whereas every other unit winces in pain...)

- Herealds are likely on of the best HQ options in the game for what they bring. 95'ish pts for a Tzherald who can bolt open a transport and then join in with his squad and slaughter half the survivors is bordering on criminal!
Slaanesh Chariot herealds are just plain rude...

- We have lots of multi-wound units and _everything_ in our army has eternal warrior! Crushers, 'Thirsters, Keepers, Fiends, Lords of Change, Chariot Heralds & DP's are all bastards to deal with and can soak-up way more firepower than they otherwise should...

- Fearless means our units will never, ever fluff a Ld roll and leg it off an objective. Sure it means they take more damage if they lose an assault, but overall it's more reliable than taking a Ld at say -5/6 or worse!



Okay, so maybe we really need more shooting because mech just rolls over top of us, and stuff like our deployment is overall fucked-up... And of corse we have some useless units *cough*furies*cough*, but then what codex doesn't have at least 2 or 3 shit units?

The point is, for a first try, our book isn't so bad. We definately deserve to stay as our own seperate book, and I'm sure when GW re-does our book, we'll get 2-3+ new units, plus some fiddlings with added options to some/most units, and a way to stand upto those nasty Grey Knights!

Cheers!


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

D-A-C said:


> Power Weapon Wielding Troops?


Doesn't matter because they're slow, soft and can't really hurt vehicles.



> Customizable MC Daemon Princes?


Is cool, but not really a strength per se.



> Skulltaker who kills anyone on a 4+?


Doesn't matter because he's slow and struggles to get at infantry/characters.



> fiends?


Great unit no doubt, but not enough to carry the army on its own.



> Bloodcrushers?


Incredibly deadly if they charge infantry but are slow, expensive, are mostly unable to deal with vehicles and have a habit of getting tied down in combat by AV12+ walkers and being stuck there all game (doesn't always happen but is frustrating when it does).



> Daemons aren't point and click, they require skill.


So do other armies. Lots of people like to say that Space Marines, Guard and so on are point and click armies, but try playing a point and click army against a really good player and see what happens.


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

I suspect we're far more likely to see Chaos Daemons get worked on and refined as a concept, than getting the Squat treatment. I'll freely admit to having the tactical insight of a Weetabix, but I think the enforced army-splitting deployment is a prime candidate for a re-think; that one struck me as a weird design decision from day one. I do think that Daemons need more unit choices, though, particularly in the Heavy Support department - only having two choices in a vital category like that is not a good thing, especially in these mech-heavy days.

Being able to put Marks on Soul Grinders might help, too - they're a fantastic idea, like a super-Defiler or something, but still a little lacking in execution. Having a Mark of (insert Chaos God here) wouldn't necessarily obviate the Iron Pact, as they could still return to the Forge and fight for it even if their own form was that of a Daemon of a particular Power; but it would allow you to give a Soul Grinder as bit more flavour, and also us Nurgle players would then be able to use them to add to Epidemius' Tally.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

experiment 626 said:


> O
> Okay, so maybe we really need more shooting because mech just rolls over top of us, and stuff like our deployment is overall fucked-up... And of corse we have some useless units *cough*furies*cough*, but then what codex doesn't have at least 2 or 3 shit units?
> 
> Cheers!



Thank god someone mentions the abomination that is furies, I personally got them as my first Daemon unit back when CSM could take them. Seriously I loved the idea of none aligned Daemons, but even back then they were sub par....now they are just well crap, I mean 15pts for I3 WS3 with no assault grenades? Were they drunk when they wrote the rules for furies. The only unit that seems worse in the codex is beasts, and they still can be somewhat useful against MC's


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

djinn24 said:


> I am assuming the OP means combining the codexes back into one instead of having a separate codex.
> 
> I would love to see them combined and the flavor of chaos taken back to what they used to be. I am a big fan of a mini-dex released for each chaos god.





LordWaffles said:


> They have no business being by themselves. Only in the recent fluff can they even exist without having a mortal conduit bring them around.





Boc said:


> This.
> 
> They _should_ be rolled up into the CSM codex, as well as 'cultist' troops. I know this has been gone over a million times in a million threads, but still...
> 
> ...


I said this ever since the 4th ed CSM came out and Caemons made the scene. Daemons are one of the worst armies and not very reliable or competitive. BA with a all Jump Pack Army is more accurate and competitive than Daemons. 

I hope that when C:CSM does get redone they will make the Daemon Dex Go The Way Of The Squats and make compeitive builds as a Daemon army or CSM heavy Army. Hell GKs can have a GK Army or the option of a Henchmen Army. WTF!?


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

Scathainn said:


> *cough*Necrons/WitchHunters*cough*


You are aware that I killed his Demons with Necrons, right? 

That's how much I meant it when I said they sucked.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Yah a deep striking armies will get the shaft against fast moving hard hitting lists. I once killed my enemies entire first wave before he could even bring on the rest, basically giving him a auto lose. If I remember right he killed 100pts of stuff when he came on in a 1500pt game. Serious with mech around your enemy can typically expect a entire armies worth of shooting and assault before you can do shit. and with GK around GD are moved even another peg down the competitive scale (GK's arn't incredible in themselves, but they have some options that will allow a some real pain against CD).

Now mind you against the few none Mech competitive lists out there DS your force isn't as notably horrifically dangerous as they wont often be able to generate a 24 inch half my F^%$ing army is shooting you zone.


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## Scathainn (Feb 21, 2010)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> You are aware that I killed his Demons with Necrons, right?
> 
> That's how much I meant it when I said they sucked.


Oh god :shok:


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I'm not sure why people still say Daemons are generally good, they're not, they are generally bad. 

The reason they win games is because they're hard to handle if things go right. The do well on tournies from time to time because they're very left field in nature, no one counter picks them (Except the classic Leafblower of course)


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> There are like, six Daemon players worldwide. I'd be more worried about the people who just complain for the sake of complaining.


Same diff, people won't shut up about it either way.



D-A-C said:


> why should Space Marines have Six Codices and Chaos only have one?


:ireful2:


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

I voted for keeping them. Granted, it would add a lot of flavor to the chaos army if the daemons were completely folded back in with the chaos marines, but if we're removing armies from the game, the last thing we need to do is remove an army that isn't a form of marine.

Seriously, half the armies in the game are in power armor. If anything should go, it's one or more of the marines. I recommend nixing both the Dark Angels and Black Templar, and replacing them with an HQ for Space Marines similar to the ones already in the codex, that change the special abilities of all your marine units.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I think Daemons are a bit of a GW 'gimmick', like Lost and the Damned or Harlequins. There aren't enough players using Daemons in 40k to warrant them having their own book, and the more Daemons that GW sell, the less Space Marines go off the shelves. GW nightmare. WW3 starts.

Midnight


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