# Primarchs seen in The First Heretic



## bringyourownbomb44 (May 27, 2011)

Hi, I've just read the first heretic, and was wondering if anyone can tell me which primarchs Argel Tal sees arriving on their homeworlds when he's been shown how the primarchs were created.
I'm pretty sure one of them is Mortarion and one is Konrad Curze, and I've heard that they are all the traitor primarchs plus one. 
If anyone can tell me which is which and in which order they are in the book that would be great thanks


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## Bane_of_Kings (Oct 28, 2009)

In future, check out the search button before you start a new topic, as this question has been repeated over and over again - and it's better to bring back old topics rather than create new ones

Basically, confirmed by Aaron Dembski-Bowden himself (Note exactly sure where), but the Primarchs shown are all the traitor Primarchs in (I think, the order that they were found in), and Lion El'Johnson, the Dark Angels Primarch, for some fans think that they may have been deliberatly not able to reach Terra in time for the seige, because the Lion thought that he would wait out and see who won.

If Horus had won, some fans believe that the Lion would have probably joined him.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

The pods represent the traitor Primarchs and the Lion in Legion order. The justification for the Lion being among the traitors was thus:



ADB said:


> In regards to ther Lions pod alongside the other traitor pods in the first heretic:
> 
> I can help shed some light on this, but yeah, that's the clearest explanation. Essentially, I envisage Caliban is a fairly tainted world, so the Chaos Gods have their talons into the Lion from the start - they bring him down onto Caliban, after all: a world plagued by Great Beasts and not exactly a million miles from the newborn Eye of Terror. He's one of the most obvious choices for corruption.
> 
> ...


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Bane_of_Kings said:


> In future, check out the search button before you start a new topic, as this question has been repeated over and over again - and it's better to bring back old topics rather than create new ones
> 
> Basically, confirmed by Aaron Dembski-Bowden himself (Note exactly sure where), but the Primarchs shown are all the traitor Primarchs in (I think, the order that they were found in), and Lion El'Johnson, the Dark Angels Primarch, for some fans think that they may have been deliberatly not able to reach Terra in time for the seige, because the Lion thought that he would wait out and see who won.
> 
> If Horus had won, some fans believe that the Lion would have probably joined him.



while i dont mean this in a argumentative way i recently posted something on a old thread and people started going crazy for bringing it back when it was the only thread on that topic so while what you say makes sense to me there is also people who are saying to create new thread so give the guy some slack. he maybe getting conflicting info.

but to what you say about the lion im on another thread arguing with a guy were he saying that from savage weapons what more proof do i want that the lion is loyal and yet the same author of the first heretic has the lion being one of the possible traitor primarchs landing on their adoptive planets. while he says it cut and dry from savage weapons the first heretic seems to say otherwise. i say we still got more to go before we can definatly decide whats motivating the lion especially after he gave those siege cannons to perturabo but thats just me. what do you make of it all?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> from savage weapons what more proof do i want that the lion is loyal and yet the same author of the first heretic has the lion being one of the possible traitor primarchs landing on their adoptive planets. while he says it cut and dry from savage weapons the first heretic seems to say otherwise. i say we still got more to go before we can definatly decide whats motivating the lion especially after he gave those siege cannons to perturabo but thats just me. what do you make of it all?


ADB said himself (in the quote I posted above) _"This vision represents right at the beginning, there was the potential for it all to go wrong. The Chaos Gods probably planned or hoped it would, but history evidently proved them wrong."_

According to ADB then, the vision (that included the Lion) represented the *potential* for the Lion to embrace Chaos/turn traitor from the beginning, as the Chaos Gods wished. But that _"history evidently proved them wrong."_


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> ADB said himself (in the quote I posted above) _"This vision represents right at the beginning, there was the potential for it all to go wrong. The Chaos Gods probably planned or hoped it would, but history evidently proved them wrong."_
> 
> According to ADB then, the vision (that included the Lion) represented the *potential* for the Lion to embrace Chaos/turn traitor from the beginning, as the Chaos Gods wished. But that _"history evidently proved them wrong."_


not keen on your editing of my Op but to continue on this subject at hand if it was all about potential why wouldnt say sanguinius be in the flashback as he was so lined up to be a baddie but yet another one to fail to turn to chaos. hell they all have the potential to be turned but something in some of them obviously just kept true to their father or it was just that some of them had just enough of a grudge with Him for chaos to work its magic. the theme ive always saw was that you have to choose to fall to chaos but then with the visions that ADB wrote could we look on things as if the lion had the potential to fall to chaos then could the others shown in the flashbacks have had the potential to resist chaos?!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> not keen on your editing of my Op


Why? I quoted what I was directly replying to.



Unknown Primarch said:


> but to continue on this subject at hand if it was all about potential why wouldnt say sanguinius be in the flashback as he was so lined up to be a baddie but yet another one to fail to turn to chaos. hell they all have the potential to be turned but something in some of them obviously just kept true to their father or it was just that some of them had just enough of a grudge with Him for chaos to work its magic. the theme ive always saw was that you have to choose to fall to chaos but then with the visions that ADB wrote could we look on things as if the lion had the potential to fall to chaos then could the others shown in the flashbacks have had the potential to resist chaos?!


That was why I was careful to stress _"According to ADB."_ It is true what you say though, all the Primarchs had the potential to fall and all of them were tested to varying degrees. 

Perhaps within the context, ADB's intention was to refer to the Lion as being the most likely Primarch (outside of the 9 traitors) to fall (keeping in line with the consistent rumours of the Lion's loyalties).


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I always thought the fact Alpharius and Omegon was included to be suspicious considering it wasn't Chaos who turned them.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I always thought the fact Alpharius and Omegon was included to be suspicious considering it wasn't Chaos who turned them.


Or was it? :scratchhead: :suicide:

It is an interesting thought though. But perhaps it didn't explicitly need to be as a result of Chaos, merely that they knew it would happen (If indeed it wasn't Chaos)?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

That makes Lion El'Jonson's loyalties even more suspicious.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Why? I quoted what I was directly replying to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



sorry maybe i was reading something into it that wasnt there.


i did forget to say that first heretic was out before savage weapons so maybe when he wrote the flashbacks they hadnt decided to try and confirm his loyalties but to me it seems rushed and maybe could have been part of the remaining DA HH novels. unless they trying to trick us and more is yet to come because they had that thing with the siege cannons to make us think he a traitor then they have this thing with curze to make us think he loyal but maybe it could be swung where while the lion may have been loyal it was a little seed that curze planted to see if he would sway down the line. just a idea thats all. maybe if ADB comes on and sees this he could add abit to the discussion.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Unknown Primarch said:


> sorry maybe i was reading something into it that wasnt there.


S'alright. 



Unknown Primarch said:


> i did forget to say that first heretic was out before savage weapons so maybe when he wrote the flashbacks they hadnt decided to try and confirm his loyalties but to me it seems rushed


Well considering they were both written by the same author I very much doubt it to be honest.



Unknown Primarch said:


> unless they trying to trick us and more is yet to come


Well ADB's stance has always been clear. The Lion was loyal. The _pod scene_ represented the potential for the Lion to join Chaos right from the beginning (although as you quite rightly pointed out, all the Primarchs had that potential) and then _Savage Weapons_ confirmed why the Lion could not reach Terra throughout the first few years of the Heresy. 



Unknown Primarch said:


> because they had that thing with the siege cannons to make us think he a traitor


Taken at face-value, the ending of _Fallen Angels_ does not present the Lion as a traitor at all. Remember, he wasn't aware that Perturabo had secretly joined Horus.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

right you are about the siege cannons but as with how they have built up the lions personality i can never shake that the lion has been taught human traits but has that animal instinct underneath that subconsciously will do anything to stay alive. 
while im totally hearing what you have said im still thinking that there might still be the lion having thought about the outcomes of the HH and was thinking of what his next move should be. in the eventuality of him being the only full legion left out in the galaxy like he says, what would his next moves be? what would he do if horus had defeated the emperor and all the loyal primarchs and he was the only one left. would he make a last stand or eventually side with horus. maybe we have got that to come yet as i think there will be some twists and turns left in the saga of the lion and luther.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Personally I still can't place his "position" within the Primarchs. Horus was a leader, Angron was the berzerker, Dorn the builder etc etc 

What is The Lions?


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