# Jedi vs Space Marine (or Grey Knight)



## GabrialSagan

How do you think Jedi Knights and masters stack up to space marines and Grey knights?


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## Necrosis

Space Marine would kill him, bolters travel at much faster speed then a laser shots in star wars. Also their light saber would not be able to block the bolt shot. Now a Sith Lord could take on a marine due to the different force powers available to him such making them unable to breathe not to sure how he would stack up against a Grey Knight.


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## darkreever

Actually the not being able to breath thing wouldn't affect a marine to much. With his third lung, a marine is theoretically able to last for twenty minutes without another breath; more than enough time to finish off one pesky sith. (And if you try and throw multiple jedi/sith then your gonna have to throw in multiple marines.)


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## Prince Endymion

I read somewhere that a typical SM has the training and acuracy to shoot 3 independant targets with bullseye accuracy with one tri-shot burst from a bolter. 

That means that if you had 3 moving target, like 3 people, and the marine chose to, he could head-shot them all with a single pull of his trigger. 

I know Jedi / Sith can deflect laser (which travel so slowly we can see them move btw) but a series of bolts that accuracte at that rate... I think not.


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## hailene

In a straight up fight, I'd probably throw my money on the Jedi.

Either opponents can pretty much kill the other in a single hit and the Jedi is so much faster. Plus the force can be used to manipulate the opponent mentally as well as physically.

Perhaps a Librarian versus Jedi would be a better match?

And to my knowledge it isn't so much as seeing a bolt and then deflecting it, but rather predicting where a bolt would be and the best way to deflect or dodge it. Since Luke and the little kiddies were able to block the bolt thingies while blind.

Then again a human Jedi can only move so fast. Perhaps a series of tightly grouped bolts would be impossible to dodge, even knowing when and where they're going. 

Actually, come to think about it, perhaps a marine with a flamer would win. Afterall, Windu had to dodge Boba-what's-his-name's flamethrower in Episode 2. Something like grenades or aiming at the Jedi's feet with a rocket launcher might work.


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## Samir_Duran

deflect - not

Stop - yes, they have their force speed and such... but, when it comes to projectiles, not lasers, the lightsaber causes incineration... so, according to fluff from gaunt's ghosts stories, one bolter round that hits you in the arm, also decapitates you and takes out almost half of your torso ( it's like it was described in the stories with legs shredded up to belt)... So a Jedi deflecting a bolter round would cose himself only to lose his weapon and his arm with it, and if it was close enough, his death... as for the siths... siths are witty, and the worst case of force choke isn't about suffocating your enemy, but by crashing his lungs. There is also Force Crash ( or something like that) that couses majority or one particular organ to collapse... a Marine with a collapsed brain... hmmm... okay, their bodies and augmentics would still want to pull the trigger withot his brain ( like soldiers marching when sleeping, the "muscle memory") but in this case, Marine loses... also Jedi has remarkable strength in telekinesis, and by using it, they can restrain their oponents. so it is possible for a 1on1 dual for the jedi to win... but not against multiple marines or in close combat, only by force usage... Or the force will get pissed on him and will eat him in the way that warp eats their users XD


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## Sethis

Jedi wins.

Don't understand why the hell people are saying "Bolter shells travel faster than lasers". Hello? Did you pay any attention in physics?

Bolter shell = Bullet

Laser = Coherent stream of light

Light = Faster than solid object. The only reason they appear to be going slowly in the film is so that we can actually SEE them, otherwise it'd be a very un-cinematic battle.

And yes, the Jedi could block bolter shots, the bolt shell would just be disintegrated by the lightsaber beam. If the marine shot a tight grouping of shells then the jedi could just dodge them entirely.

Jedi force pushes the marine over then stabs him through the faceplate while he's trying to get up.

Alternatively, he says:

J: "Haven't you noticed you're out of ammo?"
M: "I had not noticed I was out of ammo."
J: "Don't you think you should reload the clip?"
M: "I think I should reload the clip"

*Marine ejects clip and looks for a new one*

*Jedi front flips over and stabs the marine in the face*

The fluff is totally inconsistent about the capabilities of both Jedi and Marines, so until we get an authority on both then this discussion is rather moot!


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## Phrazer

1. Marine fires
2. Jedi waves hand
3. Bolts stop in mid air
4. Bolts fall to the floor
5. Jedi chops Marine up 

As much as it paines me to say thats how id see it going. However Jedi = VERY rare. Marines are available by the 100's therefore Marines win in the end!! Maybe. Actually who knows, we'll just have to put 2 in a room and find out!!


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## Coder59

When it comes to the force I would have to say the Jedi Wins unless he's going up against a Librarian, then he's in deep deep doo doo. However it would have to be telekenetic force powers since Marines have a massive amount of mental training to resist telepathic manipulation. The Jedi/Sith would have to have a mind at Alpha Plus level in order to control them so you're talking about only a few individuals in the Star Wards universe, people like Revan, Exar Kun, Yoda or Palpatine there. 

As for the whole Blasters are lasers things...no theyre not. If you check wookiepedia you'll find that blasters fire a kind of energised gas pocket that's supposedly more destructive than a laser beam. That also explains why you see blaster rifles leaving craters in Empire Strikes Back. So unless the Jedi was good enough to stop solid projectiles in mid air, which seems to be something only the really powerful ones can do, then he better either get the futch outta the way or he's gonna get shot to pieces. 

Close combat I kinda think it's down to what kind of Marine he fights. A standard Tactical or Assault trooper he would have a huge advantage over since he's armed with what amounts to a power weapon. BUT If he was taking on a Veteran, Captain, Librarian, Chaplain or Empreror forbid a Chapter Master then he's in deep deep shit. Power Weapons are basically a more sofisticated Lightsaber with a solid core he ain't getting through the energy field around the blade, not only that but Elite Marines can easily stack up against Eldar in CQC and I really doubt a Jedi is going to be faster than the space elves. 

So yeh force Telekenisis = Jedi Win (Unless Librarian) 
Long Range = Marine Eats Jedi (Unless Jedi Master) This option is also highly amusing if Jedi is facing off with a Devastator unit and gets his robed ass Freemed. 
Close Range= Jedi Eats Standard Marine but its an even fight against the Elites (Unless Jedi Master or Chapter Master is present)


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## Warlock in Training

I would say Jedi vs Marine is a solid win for Jedi. Marine is a super human, possibly 1 ton strength, and resistant to injury. He is a good shot sure, but Ive read PLENTY of BL novels were Marines miss all the time. Yes for all you Marine Fluff whores saying a Marine kills 100 humans means Errrr wrong. Anywho a real match would be Sith Lord vs a Chaos Sorceror. Force Weapon clashing with a Lightsaber be wicked cool. The fury of the Warp against the Passion driven Force. Hmmmmmmm....


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## GabrialSagan

for myself here is how I see it going down.

against a battle brother armed with non-power weapons the jedi will win for all he reasons stated above. The Jedi would stop or dodge bolts. however, once you are fighting a marine armed with power or force weapons its up to the fighting skills of the combatants. 

For a marine captain to take on a jedi knight i would say it is a toss up. But nothing short of a Mace Windu level jedi is walking out of a fight with a grey knight in less then 4 pieces.


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## Praxiss

I would have to side with the Jedi on this one.

If bolts are mass-reactive, and a beam of coherant light (lightsaber) has no mass, therefore any intercepted bolts would just be vaporised and not actually set off the charge.

The lightsaber would also slice straight through power armour and chainswords.....although i wouldn't like to make a judgement on powerswords etc. what with their "power fields".


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## Prince Endymion

Lots of fluff here not being mentioned. Lightsabers are made of light yes, but its light contained in a magnetic feild, refraced by the crystal in the saber's hilt. 

Yes, the jedi can influence people's thoughts, but its blantently stated time and again that it ONLY works on the weak-minded... in 40k I would certainly not describe a warrior cult of superhuman monks weak-minded. 

Bolters would not incinerate when hitting the opposing force of the magnetic wall of a lightsaber, it would impact just like a solid object, and Boom, not more saber, probably no more jedi.

Also, in the Star Wars fluff, there are weapons such as vibro-blades which are just swords made of adamantine that vibrate at ultra-sonic speeds... and lightsabers can't eat through them in the books. This means that Terminator Armor would be lightsaber-proof, and its quite posible that power armor would too.

Sith are not realy any more dangerous... enough psykers through lightening around that the SM are probably quite used to fighting it, and a Librarian - chaos sorceror - Grey knight would end a jedi with very little effort. 

So, in a fight, I would say a standard marine has a 90% chance of breaking a jedi in half.

Lirarians, Sorcs, GK, and what not would simply not loose.


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## Klomster

Don't forget that jedi mind trick doesn't work on those "strong of mind", hmmmm, who in 40k do have strong minds.... OH the space marines.

Mind trick won't work.

As for jedi's pwning marines, it would be a tough fight, perhaps with different outcomes.

After all, the enviroment is an important matter too.

How far away from eachother do they start? What weapons do they have? What rank do they have?

Let's try this scenario.....


[Loading battle]
Arena....... industry area.
Weapons....... Lightsaber, bolter, combat knife, chainsword, force powers, frag grenade.
Ranks....... Knight, veteran battle brother.
3
2
1
START!

As the automated door opened as the robed figure entered, with a wave of his hand the door closed behind the man, hissing and stopping with a silent thud.

The robed figure keeps walking trough the greasy hallway, heavy machinery litter the area, also large metal crates gives plenty of cover for his advance.

His mission was simple, get to the terminal and download the data for......

Without any warning, the wall explodes, a massive armoured form crasches trough the concrete/plasteel wall, 30cm thick.

Concrete rubble and iron supports fly trough the large dustcloud from the dry concrete that slowly letting the huge armoured form appear.
A dark green armour, with black linings, on his shoulder, the shape of a burning salamander head.

..... after entering the manufactorum, the armours machine spirit needed to reawake.
The inbuilt signum detects something in front of him.

The space marine rises, about a metre taller than the robed figure in front of him.

In front of the massive warrior, the robed figure removes his hood, revealing his identiy...
A Kel'dor.

-Death to the xenos! The space marine quickly raises his bolter and fire at the agile jedi.

The Kel'dor quicky take cover behind a large curved piece of machinery. But quickly realise that the weapon of his adversary is the most destructive he has seen of it's size.
And barely jump out of the way as the curved machinery is destroyed by the withering hail of bolter shells.
He is tossed to the ground and strewn with small hot dirty pieces of metal and plastic, trying to stand up the jedi feels a heavy tread on his chest.

Feeling his triumph over the alien, the space marine aims his bolter at the head of the alien under his foot.

Sensing his doom the jedi search his inner feelings, and suddently.... he sees it.

A huge mining machine with a huge hydraulic arm is just a few metres behins them.
With a flick of his hand the excavator suddently swings around and smash into the marine.

Caught unaware the marine is swung by the force of the turning machine.
And as both of the combatants scramble to their feet, the marine talks in his vox.

-I have encountered an unidentified alien creature, the target is a psyker..... yes, he will not live to see daylight again.

The armoured beast can talk? Fascinating. The Kel'dor thought, not used to theese kinds of brutes caring for advanced speach or tactics, this should be an easy battle.

The jedi unsheath his lightsaber, a blue light is cast over the area.

-The enemy is armed with a type of power weapon, will proceed with caution....

With that heavy armour, my enemy will be severely hampered, i will be able to dodge his slow attacks easily.

-Into the fires of battle, unto the anvil of war!!!! The armoured "man" suddently yells and sprints with chainsword raised towards his target.

-Oh snap. The jedi utters before having to do a fast backflip in order to not beeing annahilated by the sheer strength behind the blow.

The rooaring chainblade crashes into the ground, its obviously sturdy design somehow survived the strike and the marine fired his bolter onehandedly while rising.

The jedi quickly moved a metal crate in the way, almost 1,5 metre in heaight it should be enough..... DODGE.
Surprised the jedi realises he has to dodge the bullets crashing trough even theese heavy crates with enough explosive force to even penetrate theese kind of boxes.

Behind the jedi, the crate is severed in two and collapses on itself as the marine follows the jedi with well aimed bolter shots, small craters is riddled behind the fast moving jedi becouse of the repeated explosions from the bolter shells crashing into the plasteel walls, shooting out small amounts of debris after the unbelivably fast sprinting xeno psyker.
With a sudden surge the jedi lunges with a high jump towards his adversary, just as the marine raise his bolter to blast him apart in mid air the bolter runs out of bullets and the salamander curse his ignorance and throws it at his enemy.

The jedi counters with a force blast sending the bolter crashing into his chainsword arm setting the salamander marine slightly off balance, thinking this will be an easy finishing blow, the marine suddently swing with his other arm, hitting the jedi in his midsection, luckily for the jedi, the marine didn't get his full strength into the blow.

So instead of eviscerating the jedi with the strike, he is just flung 5 metres away.

There was no time to reload, the marine charged with his chainsword, the jedi doing a fast spin to get up quickly, the marine swings with fast blows, which the jedi in his slightly disoriented and overwhelmed situation is barely able to dodge, his lightsaber lying 3 metres to his right.

This speed is not what i expected from this brute, i am barely able to dodge his strikes becouse of the short interval betwen the blows.
Focusing his mind he calls for his blade, recieving it just in time to meet with the rooaring chainweapon of his enemy, severing it in two, and rolls away.

Turning around and studying his weapon, the marine discards it and draws his knife.
-You got my chainsword... xeno scum, then i will have to defeat you with just my knife!
The marine said tauntingly to the jedi.

His knife? That's almost the size of a camorrean axe?

The combatants lunged at eachother, exhanging quick blows and dodgning eachothers attacks.
Even with that heavy armour, he is still able to mova like that? The jedi wonders, and barely dodge an upwards swing from the "knife".

Now was his chance, with a quick slash the jedi was able to chop of the left hand of the armoured beast, his knife hand.

-Give up noble adversary, i have defeated you, i will let you go! The jedi said to the "man" holding his severed arm.

-You think you will defeat one of the emperors finest that easily? The armoured giant said with a slight humourus tone.
Without warning he grabbed a small device and threw it, sensing the danger the jedi quickly jumped away.
The frag exploded, sending the jedi flying from the shockwave, the marine cowering his visors from the flying debris from the blast.

The jedi saw an oppurtunity, springing off from another excavator he slashed at the head of the armoured giant.
The marine barely avoided, his helmet severely damaged, falling off as the marine did a fast spin missing the xeno with his clenched fist.
The fist crashed into the wall behind the jedi, they were now mere centimetres from eachothers, staring into eachothers faces.

-You are a human after all? The Kel'dor say surprised.

-No............ The salamander grabs the xeno by his jacket.

-I AM A SPACE MARINE!!!! The space marine rooars as he throws the jedi towards one of those inconviniently placed neverending holes.

The jedi crashes into the steel floor, tumbling and not getting his footing or grip until he falls down the hole, barely holding on to its edge.

The marine slowly walks forth to the alien, standing above it like a dark giant.
The light from above only letting the Kel'dor see his sihluette.

-Prepare to die...... the marine utters as he raises his foot to crush the hand that the alien is using to hang on.

But with a mighty leap, the jedi flies up from the hole, never seeing the like before the marine is caught unaware and recieves a grivious wound on his chest.

Landing behind the space marine, the jedi look back, only to see that after a wound that would have severed a man in 2, and after the loss of his arm, the space marine was still walking towards him, with hateful eyes.

-FOR THE EMPEROR!!! He yelled and lunged towards the jedi, managing to grab his arm, he crushed it with his vice-like grip, and held to the floor.
But the jedi, had one last trick up his sleeve, which the space marine found out very soon.

The blade of the jedi had penetrated his chest, the damage was irrepairable, and he felt his life seep away from him.

Just managing to slip away to not get crushed by the giant, the jedi limped off, holding his ruined arm in pain.

He had managed to best his adversary, but barely.
Moving to finish his mission at the computer central, the jedi opened another door and.....

BLAM!

The xeno fell dead before his feet, fell by a psycannon bolt, not even a psyker could sense that coming.

His work done here, the grey knight left a small beacon for the salamnders to find, letting them know where their fallen brother was.

Outcome....... slight jedi win.


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## warmaster36

Damn good story :victory:


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## Fire starter Pyro

The space marine would have killed the Jedi while he trying to talk the situation out. also marines have faster reflexes were only reason some jedi's are able to react so quickly is that they see the future in brief bursts. 

the space marines have faced opponents with similar psychic and technological Capabilities and won on a one on one basis. 

also theres the fact that the bolter rounds may detonate upon impact with the lightsaber. if so the jedi's a gonner as his radiation from the depleted uranium heads so even if the marine dyes so to dose the jedi.

also GK can fight on the level with their own psychic powers.

so BURN THE WITCH!! thats the way i see it.

BTW jedi can have the same powers as sith and sith can be good, the difference comes in how they manipulate the miniclorians jedi do it through inner peace while the sith do it through their emotions which allows them to get stronger as they get angrier which is more currupting.


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## Coder59

Personally If you want to see this worked out just think about Jedi Vs Mandalorians. Look at the multiple kickings both sides have given each other. 

Now Multiplie the Mandalorians firepower and CQC abilitys by 10...done that? ... Good, there you have your Space Marines Vs Jedi battle. Yes Jedi are tough (in anything but the prequal trilogy) but when it comes to main force the greater experience, firepower, physical abilitys and aggression of the Marines would win out every time.

Probably with a derisive remark such as "Awwww look he thinks he's people!"


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## Sethis

Alter Mind doesn't *just* work on the weak minded. Alema Rar used it repeatedly on Luke Skywalker, even when he knew exactly what she was doing, he wasn't immune.

Dark Trooper =/= Space Marine and Kyle Katarn lolpwned them.

Vibroswords DO get cut in half by a lightsaber, unless they've got woven cortosis threads in them.

Mandolorians beat Jedi through weight of numbers. In a 1v1 fight, they lose horribly.

It all depends on what you read. A lot of the Expanded universe stuff was trampled over by shitty prequel stuff, and even more of it was retconned by Lucasarts. Therefore a lot of the tech and Jedi stuff is mutually contradictory. Same with the Space Marines. You either have someone who dies on 2s to a plasma pistol, or a warrior capable of subduing hundreds of opponents, who chews radioactive tobacco and does advanced hyperspatial physics with the half of the brain he's not using to beat a Greater Daemon to death with it's own leg,


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## hailene

Just to chime back in, EU is NOT canon. Lucas has repeatedly said that *his* (that is the Official) universe is a completely different entity than EU. It's a parallel universe and thus has no bearing on this discussion. 

That being said, my money is still safely on the Jedi, at least in close combat. Marines are well trained, but in close combat they're less than subtle. Jedi lack the power to cleave through marine armor, but it's sorta moot when you have a weapon (ie lightsaber) that cuts through armor like it isn't there. Assuming there's no magical technobable that causes ceramic/plasteel plate to become impervious to light saber cuts, the Jedi will dance circles around the marine and quite litterally cut him to shreds.

Range, which I thought would be handily carried by the Jedi, may be different. A bolter on full auto is a difficult situation. It can pump out enough lead that dodging and deflecting may be impossible. Imagine trying to block or evade a rain storm. There are too many droplets; some are bound to get through. 

Then again Bolters don't seem to fire *that* fast and their shots are grouped pretty tightly together. Ironically, if the marine was armed with the more humble shot-gun he'd have a better chance at victory.

And assuming that the pair are fighting on an open plain or within an enclosed space, a flamer would probably lead to a win as well. There'd be no hope for the Jedi to close within 30 feet, much less light saber range.

Then again the Jedi could use some force powers to tie up the flamer's pipes or something.

And the point people keep bringing up about the light saber setting off the bolter round may or may not be true. Keep in mind that the fuse is in the front, and thus the first bit that gets incinerated. We don't know how the actual reactant in the bolt works. Maybe even if it's hit by the bajillion degree light saber it won't go off. Maybe there's a precise computer within the trigger that must activate the explosive material within the bolt in a particular fashion or else it fails.

Or perhaps an exceptionally skilled Jedi could slice the trigger off the bolt without touching the reactant. 

So my final verdict is: 

CC: Clearly goes to the Jedi. It's like sword fighting naked. Any hit is going to kill and the much faster guy is going to land the killing blow first.

Ranged: Probably the marine. Hand him a weapon that is nearly undodgeable/deflectable and he should be fine. A shotgun or something ought to be fine.


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## Klomster

I hope not too many poeple hate my story, i am actually in preferance of the 40k universe but seeing their qualities and standard armaments i felt that a jedi would win.

Now if it would have been a seargeant with power weapon, the outcome would have been very diffrent.


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## Talos

Against a normal tac marine yea a jedi would win but against any type of vet I dont think so. You say jedi are fast but are they faster than eldar ? Vet have beaten aspect warriors in 1v1 so I just dont see a jedi giving them much trouble.
Would like to see a Sith go against a Chaos Lord or a Daemon Prince haha


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## Galebread

Like some others have said, it does depends on the circumstances. On one hand you have the battle-hardened Space Marines (keep in mind it's pretty common for them to live through a hundred or so years, more obviously for the senior members), on the other, you have Jedi, which is by comparison on par in agility to the Eldars. Obviously on a pure strength basis the Jedi will lose pathetically, but when counting in the factor of environment, equipments for both opponents and the experience both have, the outcomes can vary on both sides.

For example, a standard Tactical marine in CQC will probably die horribly, but may or may not inflict some minor wounds on a standard Jedi. A Captain will however most likely fight to a stand-still with a Jedi Knight, as does a duel between the two separate class of Masters. Lightsabers will probably tear through power armour with ease, may have a little sluggishness but still relatively clean through artificer armour and perhaps will take a bit of time to chew through termies. Counting the fact that most commanders will have Iron Halo or something similar that gives an invul. save, lightsabers might have trouble getting through without some force assistance on the part of the Jedi.

Now on the marines' perspective, power weapons chew through armour like lightsabers, and you don't see Jedis wearing a tonne worth of suit, so if it touches it's game over for whatever part the Jedi loses. Standard CQC weapons, same deal, but lesser damage. Jedi lives by dodging/deflecting/blocking after all, not tanking wounds. On that note, lightsabers, considering their design, will probably slice through any non-power or force weapons, while you might get the usual fireworks when against power or force weapons. Or the 40K power tech might have an edge, what with having a solid core protected by fields against pure energy as long as the fields hold out.

At range, bolter shells against lightsaber is a little debatable. One one hand the magnetic field theory will rule that the bolt explodes anyway, while on the other hand one can say the fuse gets incinerated before trigger. But either way, as I understand bolts are solids, so when they gets 'vaporise', 'incinerates' or whatever you call the process, it's basically fission by splitting the atomic level material apart into gases. That said, fission is a nuclear process, and as such will give out radiation. So even when no bolts explodes, the radiation level will eventually get high enough to seriously threaten a Jedi. Of course, you'll probably be wasting a whole mountain of shells by then, so that's mostly out of the book.

On the SW side, blasters are pretty pathetic, to tell the truth...

That said, I'll lean towards the Jedi for the standard marines, and a close call between the higher echelons that will need to rely on outer factors such as environment, the willingness to fight from both combatants (no one says marines can't be ordered by a Chapter higher-up to capture alive or something) and possible sustained damage from previous engagements.

As for Grey Knights, I don't think any Jedi below Yoda and Palpatine level will have any chance really. They're made psyker killers specifically, after all.


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## hailene

Just a heads up, heating up something != fission.

If I take a cup of water and boil it, it most definitely separates the molecules more. It does not, however, create a fission reaction.

Fission takes a single atom and tears pieces of it apart. Changing states of matter doesn't do that.


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## Galebread

Sorry, my bad. I was just trying to think of something to write and probably veered way off in the process. But like I stated, it's not like is matters in the long run anyway, since either the Jedi misses a shot and gets blown off into chunks, or the marine gets diced before the suggested wild theory gets a chance to prove whether it's correct or not.


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## Phrazer

I dont know if its fair to compare a Tac marine to a Jedi, im pretty sure a Jedi would be a HQ choice if it was in the game!!

What about some other army comparisons however...

Stormtroopers Vs Guardies
AT-ATs Vs Titans
X-wings Vs (Whatever the Imperial Navy uses as a starfighter, i dont know tbh)

???


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## MontytheMighty

Sethis said:


> Jedi wins.
> 
> Don't understand why the hell people are saying "Bolter shells travel faster than lasers". Hello? Did you pay any attention in physics?
> 
> Bolter shell = Bullet
> 
> Laser = Coherent stream of light
> 
> Light = Faster than solid object. The only reason they appear to be going slowly in the film is so that we can actually SEE them, otherwise it'd be a very un-cinematic battle.


I think people were referring to the laser blasts seen in the Star Wars movies, they traveled pretty slow on screen and looked more like bolts than coherent, unbroken beams

I also don't think it's a given the bolter shells would disintegrate while passing through a light sabre's "blade", that would depend on what material they're made of 



> And yes, the Jedi could block bolter shots, the bolt shell would just be disintegrated by the lightsaber beam. If the marine shot a tight grouping of shells then the jedi could just dodge them entirely.


well, in attack of the clones and (I think) revenge of the sith, jedi were shown being hit and killed by laser blasts while attempting to block and dodge, and the laser guns weren't even rapid fire...

I think the average jedi's blocking and dodging ability is far from infinite (pretty sure jedi also get shot while trying to block/dodge in some of the boba fett comics)



> Jedi force pushes the marine over then stabs him through the faceplate while he's trying to get up.


well, I don't know how powerful the average jedi is in the force, but I suppose that is one possible outcome 
but I do remember in attack of the clones the jedi took pretty heavy casualties against enemies armed with non-rapid fire "Star Wars style" laser guns

it might also be helpful to figure out what's the closest 40k equivalent of a jedi, Eldar/Dark Eldar psyker armed with power weapon?


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## Klomster

Phrazer said:


> I dont know if its fair to compare a Tac marine to a Jedi, im pretty sure a Jedi would be a HQ choice if it was in the game!!
> 
> What about some other army comparisons however...
> 
> Stormtroopers Vs Guardies
> AT-ATs Vs Titans
> X-wings Vs (Whatever the Imperial Navy uses as a starfighter, i dont know tbh)
> 
> ???


I just couldn't leave this one alone.

Stormtroopers vs guard. Just like the star wars movies, but imagine both sides taking even more casualties.

At-at vs titans? I hope you mean 1 titan. Let's take what's closest size-wise.

Warhound, depending on weapon configuration and void shields........ hmmmm, void shields vs pathetic laser blasters.

Automatic titan win.

X-wing vs fury interceptor. (Standard gothic interceptor)

I'll quote what i can find in the gothic rulebook.
"Fury interceptors are generally a wide series of ships which typically are crewed by 2-4 crewman and are armed with several banks of forward firing lascannons and missile launchers"

Banks of lascannons? Doesn't seem really fun at all. Beeing shot at i mean, and considering it's gothic, it awesomely huge and really tough.

They might be like a corvette, in size, and have lots of gunz! (Plenty more gunz than just 1 or 2 lascannon thingies)

So reading that the fury is built for speed an has alot of "overzised thrusters and attitude jets" it sounds that the x-wing is kinda screwed.

If it fights a lightning or a vulture on the other hand (ships generally the same size and weapons) it would be up to the pilots really.


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## hailene

Hey, hey, try not to derail the thread!

But to throw in my two cents, pretty sure the IG would trump the Storm troopers. Combined arms versus...well, blasters?

The AT-AT also has been...less than impressive as well.

Also you really can't compare furies to x-wings. The thing is 60-70 meters long! The X-wing is a humble 12.5. 

We don't really have much information on the capabilities of either the fury or X-wing (in terms of canon, no EU!), so it'd be tough to decide, really.


----------



## Prince Endymion

In leiu of the post stating that Lucas does not consider the EU (expanded universe) part of his official cannon, I will try to put some things to rest using only references from the 6 movies.

Firstly, I'd like to state that in the movies, when a jedi battles a sith, or even when two jedi battle one another, they often colide lightsabers. This would not be possible if a lightsaber was simply a beam of light. For them to collide, which they obviously do, they must be contained in some form of energy field, mostly likely magnetic. 

This field is obvously quite strong as it can sustain itself when two jedi press lightsabers for more than just a momment, even when they enter into acontest of strength with them.

For me, this means that a bolt would most assuredly explode on impact.

Secondly I'd like to mention that lightsabers in the movies don't cut through much of anything "like it was air" unless its human or sometimes, alien flesh. In Episode III - VI Luke and Vader often fight in very close quaters, cramped areas such as spaceship interiors (Sky City). In these instances, the lightsabers often collided with the walls and left little more than a burn mark and setting off a few colorfull sparks.

In Episode VI, Luke is standing over a clearly beaten Vader, littering hacking at his arm for a good two or three strokes before Vader's arm comes off.

In Episode I, Obi-Wan has to stand behind Qui-Gon and literally buy him time so that his lightsaber can eat through a few layers of what I can only assume is standard bulkhead material. 

Now if it takes that long to eat through a door, and can only inflict minor burns on interior walls, how long would it take to eat through say... power armor's ceramite plate covering ellectrically motivated fiber bundles? Probably a realy long time.

To expland on that, ceramite conducts almost no heat, and is extremely resistant to energy based weapons, hence why lasguns are ineffectual against it.

Lastly I'll touch on the force and its use as described by the movies. Its stated many times that "mind tricks" only work on the weak-minded, so we can rule out any use of the force for misdirection or delay. 

For a jedi to move objects (lifting, pushing, etc) is very clearly proportional to the level of skill of the jedi. It took Yoda all of his concentration, making him drop his lightsaber, to keep a large pipe from crushing Anakin and Obi-wan. 

We can assume that a standard marine, being an average of 7" tall and carrying al his extra organs, the black carapace, his own considerable muscle mass, and his power amror (which enhances the wearer's strength to make movement possible) is quite heavy, would require an extremely skilled jedi to move or push.

Sith often shoot lightening from their fingers, which we have to assume is barely enough voltage to be visible, sinse luke, wearing cloth robes, did not cumbust while being shocked. Also, it caused some steam to move around him, but did not burn his flesh, or his clothing. When Vader was hit with the lightening, after loosing his arm, and being exhausted from a previous battle, he was almost not phased, and he was wearing his life-support-system, which was obviously not even shorted out by the current.

Re-enter power armor, which its ellectrically motivated fiber bundles, and low-conductivity ceramite plates, and I can assume that force lightening is also a bust.

This pretty much depletes the jedi's bag of tricks... no lightsabers, no force powers, and the jedi is just as squishy as a standard human, though he make take a longer time to catch...


----------



## Ork_boss

The only fancy thing about jedi lightsabers is the they glow and they shear through armor. Space marine armor is Designed not to be penetrated No the lightsaber would not work. Oh and what is the marine DOING ON HIS OWN! for that matter!


----------



## hailene

You haven't explained why a bolt would explode. We don't know the exact method of triggering the bolt. 

And another thing, if I remember correctly, in Episode 1 didn't the light saber first pierce through the bulkhead instantly? Through several feet of metal?

Would it then be possible, to say, a lightsaber could jab through a couple inches of plate? Say a helm?

And the weight thing is hard to argue. Wasn't it...well, I haven't seen the original series in over a decade, but didn't Yoda tell Luke that size does not matter? And Luke, a relative newbie to the force, lift the entire X-wing up?

The assumption that force lightning acts like regular lightning may be pushing it. Since it DID light up Vader's skeletal system, something we know that regular lightning doesn't . Boo Hollywood!


----------



## Klomster

> Also you really can't compare furies to x-wings. The thing is 60-70 meters long! The X-wing is a humble 12.5.


I am comparing them becouse he asked for the imperiums standard ship to ship fighter.
And that is the fury interceptor.

And i also stated that a normal dogfighter like the lightning would be a better ship to relate to.

And i agree with the prince E, power armour wouldn't be like cutting like butter, in fact it's very resilient (what? it is?) and provides good protection (could be the reason space marines wear the things), It even gives minor protection versus power weapons, but not much at all.


----------



## GabrialSagan

Klomster said:


> I am comparing them becouse he asked for the imperiums standard ship to ship fighter.
> And that is the fury interceptor.
> 
> And i also stated that a normal dogfighter like the lightning would be a better ship to relate to.
> 
> And i agree with the prince E, power armour wouldn't be like cutting like butter, in fact it's very resilient (what? it is?) and provides good protection (could be the reason space marines wear the things), It even gives minor protection versus power weapons, but not much at all.


the ceramite plate covers a lot of the body but their are a good number of breaks in it, breaks that any padawan would aim for.


----------



## Prince Endymion

GabrialSagan said:


> the ceramite plate covers a lot of the body but their are a good number of breaks in it, breaks that any padawan would aim for.


In the movies, the padawans were getting mowed over by the standard clone troopers, who by the way, killed the entire Jedi order (thus balancing the scales).

In terms of ship to ship combat, the lightening fighter is the Imperial dogfighter, its a two man crew with two-lascannons if I'm not mistaken, and would probably be an equal for the X-Wing class fighter, thus boiling down to pilot skill rather than technological superiority.


----------



## Coder59

If we go off the Movies the Jedi don't have a hope in hell! Just because Lucas has decided to throw a hissy fit doesn't mean we should discard all the EU stuff. After all the EU has been putting out good material for nearly 20 years now. As opposed to Lucas to seems hell bent on destroying the franchise. 

The mans gone senile I tells yeh!

And personally I would like to see somebody like Darth Revan who by all accounts was a complete badass take on a company master. This guy fought the Star Wars universe's equivelant of Space Marines to a stand still and was still asking for more. 

Can you really see Vader or Yoda doing better than that?


----------



## hailene

Throw a hissy fit? It's something he created. He has all the rights in the world to say what flies and what doesn't.


----------



## Prince Endymion

Coder59 said:


> If we go off the Movies the Jedi don't have a hope in hell! Just because Lucas has decided to throw a hissy fit doesn't mean we should discard all the EU stuff. After all the EU has been putting out good material for nearly 20 years now. As opposed to Lucas to seems hell bent on destroying the franchise.
> 
> The mans gone senile I tells yeh!
> 
> And personally I would like to see somebody like Darth Revan who by all accounts was a complete badass take on a company master. This guy fought the Star Wars universe's equivelant of Space Marines to a stand still and was still asking for more.
> 
> Can you really see Vader or Yoda doing better than that?


Write a story. Actually, write a story that has a compelling plotline, characters, and unique theme.

Now make that into a movie that litterally changes the way movies are made FOREVER.

Once you'e done this I'll play the role of some mindless fan who writes on and on about how super-awesome, baddass, l33t some aspect is and tarnish your initial vision.

When you "throw a hissy fit" I'll remake your post.


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## GabrialSagan

Once Lucas licensed the property it became open to interpretation and addition. The EU is cannon as is the movies. Think of it like the bible. If you read Genesis chapter one it tells you one way the world was made and if you read chapter 2 it tells you a completely different thing. 

As long as people are picking and choosing, pick and choose what you want. Personally the idea that the clones fought for the Republic and not invaded it as was established in the Timothy Zahn books is just plain stupid.


----------



## hailene

http://www.canonwars.com/weblog/2005/09/ecce-starlog.html

Scroll down a bit. An interviewer asks this:

"The Star Wars Universe is so large and diverse. Do you ever find yourself confused by the subsidiary material that's in the novels, comics and other offshoots?"

And then from Georgie himself:

"I don't read that stuff. I haven't read *any* of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a DIFFERENT world than MY world."

Then he further adds, "[W]e decided that, like Star Trek, we would have *two* universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."

Sounds pretty solid to me. Lucas has the real Star Wars universe and the EU is a totally different beast.


----------



## High_Seraph

write up another battle between a Jedi Knight and a Captain/Grey Knight


----------



## teh1337llama

hailene said:


> http://www.canonwars.com/weblog/2005/09/ecce-starlog.html
> 
> Scroll down a bit. An interviewer asks this:
> 
> "The Star Wars Universe is so large and diverse. Do you ever find yourself confused by the subsidiary material that's in the novels, comics and other offshoots?"
> 
> And then from Georgie himself:
> 
> "I don't read that stuff. I haven't read *any* of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a DIFFERENT world than MY world."
> 
> Then he further adds, "[W]e decided that, like Star Trek, we would have *two* universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."
> 
> Sounds pretty solid to me. Lucas has the real Star Wars universe and the EU is a totally different beast.


"CHEE: 'GL is certainly not bound by the EU, though he's certainly open to using things created in it (Aayla Secura and the Coruscant name, for example). On the other hand, the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not. The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films.'"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon

So yes, the EU, officially, is canon.

Now that we're done with that, here's my take on this whole thing:

In my opinion, if you stuck a space marine and a jedi in a blank arena, the jedi would get owned. However, that's because jedi use stealth, trickery, careful plans, and their environment to help them win. If a jedi and a space marine were trapped in, say, a space hulk, in my opinion the jedi would own the space marine's face. And a cluttered, disorganized, chaotic battlefield is much much more likely than a clean one. 

Armor
Lightsabers most certainly can cut through power armor, the only substances that are in any way resistant to lightsabers (to my knowledge) are cortosis, phrik, some Yuuzhan Vong stuff, and beskar. Cortosis, phrik, and vonduun crab armor, amphistaffs are specifically resistant to lightsabers, while absolutely nothing in the 40k canon is as strong as beskar. That stuff is amazing. It could deflect blaster bolts with ease. If we compare stormtrooper armor to a 3+ save (it takes a couple hits from a blaster to punch through it), then i'd say beskar is a 2+, then if failed a 3+. Now that I'm done rambling on about how beskar is amazing, the point is lightsabers can cut through most stuff in 40k without a problem. In my biased opinion, it would probably take a couple hits to go through termie armor, but it's still not that much of an obstacle. Finally, any jedi skilled in shatterpoint (IMO, one of the coolest things in the EU) would be able to find a shatterpoint in a space marine's armor, and just crumble it.

Bolter vs Lightsaber
I see no indication why a lightsaber shouldnt be able to vaporize bolter rounds. That said, I think only the most skilled of jedi could pull off the combination of dodging and blocking required to shield yourself from bolters, and only then for a couple seconds. a jedi out in the open with a space marine firing at him is a dead jedi.

Stealth
I don't think anybody has touched this yet, but its integral to my argument for why jedi win, so here's what i think: even with acute senses, no way space marines could hear, see, or smell jedi. "What about psykers?" you may be typing in a reply to me now. Jedi can make themselves hidden in the force, if trained to do so. I don't see why not hidden in the warp also.

Jedi Mind-Affecting Powers
AFAIK, in most of the canon, stronger, more disciplined minds are more able to resist their mind being tampered with. Although, in my opinion, a straight-on "This isn't the jedi you're looking for" would fail, i don't think its unreasonable to think that jedi could tamper with a space marine's mind in some more subtle way. Say, if a space marine _wanted_ to see a shadow instead of a jedi, or really _wanted_ not to have any trouble, then I'd think a jedi could make him see that.

And with all this i conclude that in my opinion a jedi would eat a normal space marine for breakfast, and possibly be able to take down a whole company bit-by-bit, if he wasnt caught or cornered. Against grey knights or more elite space marines, I'd have to say that it really depends; Normal grey knights would die about as easily as space marines, grey knights terminators would be tough: doable one-on-one, but in a group they'd win (this based on the assumption that lightsabers can't cut through power weapons, that gk terminators have some psychic ability, and that terminator armor offers marginal physical protection). A librarian versus a jedi, I'd think, would be much like jedi-on-jedi duel, both skilled swordsmen and users of supernatural power. I'm really not sure for a captain or chapter master.

If I've left out anything vital or said something incorrect, please point it out to me (preferably politely). I'm not very into the 40k fluff- most of my basis for this comes from codices and these forums. I may have missed multiple important things.


----------



## hailene

That's awfully funny. Straight from Lucas, according to your link:

"In July 2001, Lucas gave his opinion on the matter of what is canon in Star Wars during an interview with Cinescape magazine:
“ There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There’s my world, which is the movies, and there’s this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe – the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don’t intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don’t get too involved in the parallel universe."

Parallel universes. Sounds like two different universes to me.

And about the quote YOU used. You're reading, "On the other hand, the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not." as the EU and the movies are bound together. They are the same. Equivocal. That's not true. He's saying that the EU is constrained by the canon (IE movies). So you can't write a book where Anakin switches sides in the middle of tESB. That conflicts with canon and thus can not be written. That, however, does not mean EU is canon.

Plus the statement you're trying to back yourself up with is from Leland Chee. A much, much weaker source than George Lucas. This is even funnier considering that Lucas has be cited at least twice saying outright that the EU is a totally different beast than actual canon. 

As for one, I'm going to side with the actual creator than Chee.

Edit:I wouldn't put stormtrooper armor as a 3+ save. A quick look here...

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWtrooparmor.html

As it shows, Storm Trooper armor breaks when a trooper so much as falls on it (like plastic, heh heh). Also it managed to get pierced by primative arrows by, all appearances, VERY low draw.

Then again, if we do look at blasters, we can see why they may fail to pierce ST armor.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWblaster.html


----------



## Klomster

Prince Endymion said:


> In the movies, the padawans were getting mowed over by the standard clone troopers, who by the way, killed the entire Jedi order (thus balancing the scales).
> 
> In terms of ship to ship combat, the lightening fighter is the Imperial dogfighter, its a two man crew with two-lascannons if I'm not mistaken, and would probably be an equal for the X-Wing class fighter, thus boiling down to pilot skill rather than technological superiority.


No.

NOOOOOO!!!!!!!! Lightning is not the standard ship to ship fighter.

It is used in air to ground support roles and planetwide operations.

They cannot leave into space.


The fury interceptor is the standard gothic fighter interceptor.

Anything smaller would be of no use in battles.


Considering the standard 1'6 kilometer star destroyer would be beat by the imperial standard transport ship.
(The transport has void shields that are constructed to withstand multiple hits from macro cannons, standard ship weapons in 40k, a normal weedy turbo-loozer, i mean laser wouldn't do crap against it, and the transport have a few defensive macrocannon batteries, cannons men can probably walk upright inside.)

A small type fighter like the lightning would be of COMPLETELY no use, considering the standard imperial bomber is like 747 jumbojet.


Stop making stupid arguments and statements.

Another story?

Well i'm a bit tired, but i'll try.

Jedi knight vs...... grey knight??? Ok, here goes, the last story continues.

......battle brother Durus of the grey knights turned around, walking to the terminal where the xeno psyker was walking, strange cogitator this is.

With curved buttons, and colours, and pleasant lights.

Distasteful, a grey knight doesn't need fancy stuff like this, it's a waste of time constructing anything else than spartan like simplicity.

A small disc is ejected from the machine, and Durus puts it in his beltpouch.

Walking out of the room, a human suddently stands there..... a psyker.

-You killed my companion foul...... thing, prepare to feel my vengeance! (Or something, in search for better words)

-The enemies of man cannot be left to live, and as a companion of a xeno you are a heretic, and a psyker ontop of that, prepare to feel the judgement of the righteus!

-Psyker? Heretic? What are theese things you speak of........ GAAH! 

BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!

Jumping out of the way, the jedi was just acting on when he saw the giant in silver armour lifting his gauntlet mounted weapon.
Firing twice as fast but the same type of shells like the other weapon, and he couldn't even sense it coming.

[Jedi casts mind trick]

-You futile power is feeble compared to the might of the god-emperor!
Durus answers while the attacks flickers around the grey knight in a short burst of blue flame.

Durus marched closer, readying his nemesis force halberd.

That weapon.... it's taller than i am! And the size! And he wields it like it weighs nothing?

The jedi readies his blade, a green lightsaber.

-Two psykers with a power blade each? This job was easier than i thought!

The grey knight say this as he walks closer, waiting for his opponets move.
And Durus began the prayer of detestation.

The jedi now at unease, cast [force push] with all his force, it should be enough to send him........

..... shall guide me trough the darkness, and the light will show the way trough......

The attack, powerful enough to send a squad of stormtroopers flying, simply dissipated with that blue flame.

Durus eyes began shining, with an inner blue light of purity.

SUDDENTLY.

Durus lunged, his halberd crashing down into the floor, sending bits flying all around, bathed in a blue waving flame, durus appeared like a brazier of the blue light of the emperor.

The jedi barely dodged, the speed of the strike, the power of the impact, but his weapon is stuck in the floor, here is my chance.

And as the jedi attacked, the grey knight simply lifted his very not stuck to the floor blade and did a low strike, severing both of the jedis legs.

Crawling, trying to get away from the burning monstrosity, the jedi moved with feeble attempts.

Following him was Durus, and as the jedi backed into a crate, Durus stopped ontop of him.

-This is the judgement of the righteus! And Durus shot the jedi once with his storm bolter.

Durus > Storm bolter (head shot)> Jedi

Durus continued walking, but BLUE LIGHTNING APPEARS!!!!

*Fizzle*

-? Durus wonders, another psyker?

From the ceiling a dark robed man with a similar power blade but red jumps and touches ground.

-I am darth Wha't'ev'er and my master....

BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!

As the sith tries to block the psycannon bolts, he fails, and is splattered to pieces.

Durus > Storm bolter > Darth Wha't'ev'er

Red meat covers the floor where the psyker had stood, only his power weapon was still completely intact.

Durus, as before began walking out of the place.......

-HAHAHAHAAahahahaaa!!! Dark voice laughs.

-*Sigh* Durus utters.

-You are strong in the force, but not as strong as i! The kinda fancier black dressed psyker say.

-So that is what you call your warpspawned power? The force? Pathetic! Durus calls out.

Darth Sith'D'ude master, pulls out a lightsaber. And another one.

Two power weapons? Theese guys have resources.

-Come, join the dark side, i sense great power in you, you can accomplish many grea..........

BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!

Durus > Storm bolter (Head shot)> Darth Sith'D'ude master

Darth Inse'rt ran'dom'na me'here master appears and drops a whole floor on Durus.

-Ouch. Durus utters.

-You have no other chance than to join the dark side.
The heretical psyker say.

-Coordinates, 2.4.9.9 extraction needed, trapped beneath fallen debris.
Durus emosionlessly seaks in his voice.

-? Fallen debris? I dropped half the house on you!
The now kinda mad sith say, becouse his enemy is ignoring his awesome speach.
(Jedi's and sith always have pointless speaches, and drop their lightsabers.)

-Anyway, DIE NOW, ENEMY OF THE DARK SIDE!!!!

And the sith throws his lightsaber and it goes straight towards the trapped Durus.

*ZOOOOOOOOOOMM!!!!*[Insert warp sparkles here]

An even more huge silver armoured warrior now stands there.

*Lightsaber bouncing on refractor field sound*

-Brother, you needed my aid? Battle brother Reva, of the terminator squad ask Durus.

-Yes, i got stuck here by this rubble. 
Durus answers.

-I will help you!
Reva tell Durus and begins moving towards his brother to aid him.

And with a skyrocketing leap and a [force pull] later, the sith is attacking the grey knight terminator with unnatural speed.

Reva does a slice with his halberd, hitting the lightsaber and breaking the wrist of its user, and then proceeds with incinerating the screaming psyker with his incinerator.

Reva > Incinerator (Everything)> Darth Inse'rt ran'dom'na me'here master.

And Reva removes enough of the debris to free Durus.

And they walk out of there.


Outcome, Supreme grey knight win.

And don't argue, grey knights are specialized in fighting all that is psychic, and deamonic.
Jedi's clearly use psychic powers.


----------



## MontytheMighty

teh1337llama said:


> the only substances that are in any way resistant to lightsabers (to my knowledge) are cortosis, phrik, some Yuuzhan Vong stuff, and beskar. Cortosis, phrik, and vonduun crab armor, amphistaffs are specifically resistant to lightsabers, while absolutely nothing in the 40k canon is as strong as beskar.


then could you explain what an earlier poster said:

_Secondly I'd like to mention that lightsabers in the movies don't cut through much of anything "like it was air" unless its human or sometimes, alien flesh. In Episode III - VI Luke and Vader often fight in very close quaters, cramped areas such as spaceship interiors (Sky City). In these instances, the lightsabers often collided with the walls and left little more than a burn mark and setting off a few colorfull sparks.

In Episode VI, Luke is standing over a clearly beaten Vader, littering hacking at his arm for a good two or three strokes before Vader's arm comes off.

In Episode I, Obi-Wan has to stand behind Qui-Gon and literally buy him time so that his lightsaber can eat through a few layers of what I can only assume is standard bulkhead material.
_


----------



## Prince Endymion

MontytheMighty said:


> then could you explain what an earlier poster said:
> 
> _Secondly I'd like to mention that lightsabers in the movies don't cut through much of anything "like it was air" unless its human or sometimes, alien flesh. In Episode III - VI Luke and Vader often fight in very close quaters, cramped areas such as spaceship interiors (Sky City). In these instances, the lightsabers often collided with the walls and left little more than a burn mark and setting off a few colorfull sparks.
> 
> In Episode VI, Luke is standing over a clearly beaten Vader, littering hacking at his arm for a good two or three strokes before Vader's arm comes off.
> 
> In Episode I, Obi-Wan has to stand behind Qui-Gon and literally buy him time so that his lightsaber can eat through a few layers of what I can only assume is standard bulkhead material.
> _


Let me be as clear as I possibly can. 

The movies are canon. It is irrefutable fact.

What I / you / we see in the movies is thus also canon. So when I mentioned the above scenes, they are canonical.

If an auther writes about say... lightsabers, and says that they can cut through God himself though fifteen feet of ultra-temper-mega-bonded super alloy, than he is thus NOT canonical, becouse it conflicts with what Lucas already wrote as canon in the movies.

I actually like Star Wars a lot, its very entertaining, but it is rife with contradictions between Lucas and every other hack who has tried to write about it.


----------



## Praxiss

To try and get an answer to this you woudl need to bring them both into the same playing field, ie: make rules for a Jedi and compare them. Bear i nmind this is all off the top of my head so it may not be as balanced as it could be. I've tried to make it as close to how i coudl see a Jedi performing. opinions welcome.

So.........

*Jedi Master 120pts*

WS 6
BS 3
T 4
S 3
I 5
A 3
W 1
Ld 10
Sv 5+ (4+/3+)

Wargear:
*Lightsaber *- the lightsaber is a weapon of legend. Utilising a coherent energy beam channeled through a focusing crystal and then projected from an emitter in the hilt, the beam itself is able to cut through all but the most dense substances. Due to this the lightsaber counts as a Relic Blade (hits with S6 and ignores armour saves)

The lightsaber is also used by the Jedi in defense. Utilising their speed a jedi is able to use the lightsaber to intercept and sometimes even deflect ranged attacks. Due to its limited length the jedi is obviously more effective in close quarters. The lightsaber provides the jedi with a 4+ Invulnerable save against ranged attacks and a 3+ in close combat. 

*Jedi Robes* - These homespun robes are the uniform of the Jedi. Although providing nothing in the way of armour they do aid the jedi when it come to stealth. A Jedi robe counts as a stealth cloak and thus provides the jedi with the Stealth USR. 


Special Rules:

*Fleet*
*Furious Charge*
*Move Through Cover*
*The Force*- The force is found in all living things. In combat the Jedi use the force to boost their awareness of a situation as well as granting them unnatural speed & resilience. Using the Force in combat grants the Jedi 2+ I & 1+ T (all included in profile)

*Options:[/*COLOR]

Saber Upgrades:
The Jedi may choose one of the following saber upgrades.

*Double Bladed Saber (10 pts)-*To some Jedi, one blade just is not enough. These jedi modify their saber so it projects a blade form each end of the hilt. If this is taken the Jedi may Re-roll 1 failed to-wound dice per assault phase.

*Shoto (10 pts)- *A Shoto is a smaller version of a lightsaber, with a smaller hilt projecting a slightly shorter blade. This gives the jedi the option of tying up an opponents weapon while leaving their main saber available to strike a killing blow. A Jedi with a Shoto gains an extra attack in cc.

*Dual-Phase Saber (15 pts) *- Some jedi build their sabers with a second crystal assembly within. When this second crystal is brought into line the sabers blade is extended, making the weapon much longer, although more difficult to wield. A Jedi with this type of saber is able to make a charge move of 9", although they also suffer a -1 modifer to their attacks.

*Light-Whip (15 pts)* - The Light-Whip is a mix of whip and lightsaber. It incorporates a mix of mono-filament lashes and lightsaber crystals to create a truly fearsome weapon. A Llightwhip grants the Jedi an extra attack in cc and wounds on a 2+.



Force Powers
The Jedi may choose 2 of the following Force powers to augment himself in combat:

*Force Choke (10 pts):* In the shooting phase the jedi may use the force to try and crush the windpipe of his opponent. The jedi may use this attack on one model within 12". Take a Leadership test, if passed the target immediately suffers a S3 hit which automatically wounds and ignores armour saves. Note that Force choke can only be used against living targets and therefore will not affect vehicles/necrons/drones/ etc. Also some targets are simply too massive to be felled by such an attack. Force choke has no effect on tagets with an unmodified Toughness value of 5 or more.

*Lightsaber Throw (15 pts):*In the shooting phase the jedi may throw his lightsaber at his opponent, guiding it using the force. Select a single target model with 24". Each player rolls a single D6+ their intiative. If the jedi wins the target is hit with a normal lightsaber attack, if the opponent wins the lightsaber has missed and returns to the jedis hand. If the lightsaber misses the Jedi suffers a -1 modifier to his attacks that turn..

*Force Lightning (10 pts):*During the shooting phase the Jedi may use the force to summon lightning from his fingertips. Force lightning fires with the following profile:

Template, S4, AP-, No cover save.

*Force Resiliency (10 pts):*The Jedi can use the force to augment his body to supreme levels of resiliency and give himself protection against all manner of biological attacks. The Jedi may opt to use this power at the start of the first turn and it will hold for the entire game. Any poison attacks used against the jedi will wound using the normal T vs S table rather than on their special stats.

*Force Pull (15 points):*The Jedi uses the Force to pull a target towards himself, making it easier to strike them down. This power is used during the Shooting phase instead of any other weapon or power. Select a single non-vehicle model or IC with 18". On a successful Ld test, the jedi my "pull" the target D6" towards himself.

*Shatterpoint (25 pts):*The skill of Shatterpoint revolves around the force user looking at the molecular makeup of an object and finding the exact spot where the application of an exact force will destroy the target utterly. This power is used at the start of a Jedi assault phase. Choose a target with 6" (The Jedi must either be in combat with the target, or about to charge the target. A Jedi cannot be in combat against one unit and use Shatterpoint on a target in another combat). Roll a D6, on a roll of 4+ the target will suffer a -2 modifier to their armour save for the remainder of the game as their armour is fractured beyond repair.

*Force Mind Trick (20 pts):*Using the force, the jedi can cloud the mind of his opponent. This power is more easily used against the weak minded, but can affect even the most battle hardened warrior if the jedi has sufficient skill. During the shooting phase, choose a target within LOS and 12", take a Leadership test, if successful roll a D6. If the roll is equal to or higher than the targets intiative, the mind trick has worked. A roll of 6 will always mean a successful mind trick. Any target that suffers a successful Mind Trick attack has their intiative reduced to 1 for the remainder of the turn and they may not shoot in their next shooting phase.

*Force Throw (20 pts)* - The jedi utilises the force to cause loose debris and detrius in the area to bombard his opponent. This power is used at the start of the assault phase. Pick an enemy unit with 12". Upon a successful leadership test the target unit his hit with 2D6 S3 Ap- attacks as loose rocks, battle wreckage and other debris are flung towards them in a flurry. Normal saving throws apply.


----------



## Ork_boss

WHY WHY does My two favorite Things Collide. GK vs JK they both die!


----------



## Coder59

Prince Endymion said:


> Write a story. Actually, write a story that has a compelling plotline, characters, and unique theme.
> 
> Now make that into a movie that litterally changes the way movies are made FOREVER.
> 
> Once you'e done this I'll play the role of some mindless fan who writes on and on about how super-awesome, baddass, l33t some aspect is and tarnish your initial vision.
> 
> When you "throw a hissy fit" I'll remake your post.


As soon as he gave the go ahead for the EU he lost all right for throwing a hissy fit. To be honest I've heard him saying stuff like that a couple of times and it allways comes across as sour grapes because people seem to prefer a lot of the stuff in the EU to the stuff he was doing with the prequal trilogy. 

I also find it highly suspicious that he's mined the EU for a hell of a lot of ideas, such as Double Ended Lightsabers and Courascant amongst other things. 

Really the movies aren't very well fleshed out if you really want to take this comparison seriously the EU is the place to go since it's had 20 years of constant development, history and work put into it. If you read the EU you find that the Jedi and the Sith both have compelling backstories and some genuinly human characters as opposed to Lucas's 'Ebil Wizards.' 

All Lucas can claim is that he made some movies that were the genesis of this universe. Other people have developed it, fleshed it out and in the course of the ride given some far more compelling stories than Lucas gave when it came to the prequal trilogy. In fact if you read some of his interviews on the subject he gives the impression of saying "NO YOU WILL LIKE THIS I'M GEORGE LUCAS OBEY ME!" 

This whole EU isn't canon thing smacks of sour grapes and laziness to my mind. Hell he even let the EU writers loose in the Clone Wars comics and books when people demanded more and what do you know they put out better stuff than him. 

Cry Lucas Cry.

As to the continuing argument. I think one of the biggest problems a Jedi Vs Marine battle has is that you're relying on them operating alone. But if we take the standard fighting unit of both forces you have a Padawan and a Master Vs a Squad. That means that in a standard operation you have a 5 on 2 fight. I also wonder about which period of Jedi would be facing off with the Marines. If it was a Clone Wars era Jedi theres a good chance he has an entire army of Armoured chaps backing him up (Space Marine Company vs Clone Army now theres a fight and a half) but if it was pre clone wars you're talking two maybe three Jedi at most. Environment is all very well but Firepower and Numbers play a massive part in a fight as well.


----------



## Galebread

Praxiss said:


> To try and get an answer to this you woudl need to bring them both into the same playing field, ie: make rules for a Jedi and compare them. Bear i nmind this is all off the top of my head so it may not be as balanced as it could be. I've tried to make it as close to how i coudl see a Jedi performing. opinions welcome.
> 
> So.........
> 
> *Jedi Knight 100pts*
> 
> WS 7
> BS 3
> T 4
> S 4
> I 6
> A 3
> W 1
> Ld 10
> Sv 4+ (4+/3+)


Alright, let's see.
WS: If it's a Master I might consider a 7, but seeing as it's a Jedi Knight, the WS listed is unusually high. I'd consider a maximum of around 5, going along the thought process of someone fighting with the same weapon for double digits of decades would be more familiar in using a particular category of weapon than someone with at most a decade or two.

BS: Nothing to say here, it's alright.

T: A toughness of 4 is too high. A Jedi is not a genetically engineered superhuman designed for extreme combat conditions. I'd say they're more or less around guard levels (they're as easy to kill with the same weapon as STs, you just see more ST dead because they're numerically much more common), so maximum 3, no more.

S: Again, like toughness, they're not genetically altered superhumans. No super strength for them. 3 at most.

I: Perhaps too high, but so be it.

A: Okay, I'll run with it.

W: Not arguing there.

Ld: Sure why not.

Sv: I'd consider a 5+ armour and keep the 3+ Invul save instead, seeing as they wear what basically amounts to t-shirts (i.e. nothing) in the 40K universe.


> Wargear:
> *Lightsaber *- the lightsaber is a weapon of legend. utilising a coherent energy beam channelled through a focusing crystal and then projected form a an emitter in the hilt, the beam itself is able to cut through all but the most dense substances. Due to this the lightsaber ignores all armour saves and the highest invul that can be taken against it is a 5+.


I think in terms of weapons mechanics, it's more akin to a Force weapon (they even got the name for it!) than the described abilities. Our flashlights can canonically blow chucks out of unarmoured people, while according to the movies it takes awhile for lightsabers to punch through normal bulkheads and leaves only burn marks on walls it touched briefly. I'll still give it the ignore armour save effect for the sake of it. Just count it as a Force weapon, it's easier that way.



> The lightsaber is also used by the Jedi in defence. Utilising their speed a jedi is able to use the lightsaber to intercept and sometime even deflect ranged attacks. Due to its limited length the jedi is obviously more effective in close quarters. The lightsaber provides the jedi with a 4+ Invulnerable save against ranged attacks and a 3+ in close combat.


You already have a standardised 3+ invul save in the stats, this can pretty much be ignored (unless that's where the invul stat you intended to have come from) other than being fluff.



> *Jedi Robes* - This homespun brown robes are the uniform of the Jedi. Although provide nothing in the way of armour they do aid the jedi when it come to stealth. A Jedi robe counts as a stealth cloak and thus provides the jedi with the Stealth USR.


 Sure, no problem.

Special Rules:



> *Fleet*
> *Move Through Cover*


No problem with that.


> *The Force* - The force is found in all living things. In combat the Jedi use the force to boost their awareness of a situation as well as grating them unnatural speed, strength and resilience. Using the Force is combat grants the Jedi 3+ I, 1+ S & 1+ T (all included in profile)


Right, firstly, the force doesn't directly affect those stats, nor simutaneously unless used by a really skilled Jedi (Master class, etc.). So I would change the rules a bit and offer the same effects for simplicity's sake, but make it so that only one of the benefits can be chosen each player turn.

Options:
The Jedi may choose 2 of the following Force powers to augment himself in combat:


> *Force Choke (10 pts):* In the shooting phase the jedi may use the force to try and crush the windpipe of his opponent. The jedi may use this attack on one model within 12". Take a Leadership test, if passed the target immediately suffers a S3 hit which automatically wounds and ignores armour saves. Note that Force choke can only be used against living targets and therefore will not affect vehicles/robots/drones etc. Also some targets are simply to massive to be felled by such an attacks. Force choke has no effect on tagets with an unmodified Toughness value of 5 or more.


Okay, seems alright to me.


> *
> Lightsaber Throw (15 pts): *In the shooting phase the jedi may throw his lightsaber at his opponent, guiding it using the force. Select a single target model with 24". Each player rolls a single D6+ their intiative. If the jedi wins the target is hit with a normal lightsaber attack, is the opponent wins the lightsaber has missed and returns to the jedis hand. If the lightsaber misses the the Jedi will not receive his bonus attack if he charges that turn.


Same deal, looks good to me.


> *Force Lightning (10 pts): *During the shooting phase the Jedi may fuse the force to summon lightnign form his fingertips. Force lightning fires with the following profile:
> 
> Template, S4, AP-, No cover save.


Alright, seems balanced enough.


> *Force Resiliency (10 pts): *The Jedi can use the force to augment his body to supreme levels of resiliency and give himself protection against all manner of biological attacks. The Jedi may opt to use this power at the start of the first turn and it will hold for the entire game. Any poison attacks used against the jedi will wound using the normal T vs S table rather than on their modified 2+ or 4+ stats.


Lasting for the whole game is a bit too much. Make it last only a turn unless you're giving stats for a Jedi Master.



> *
> Force Pull (15 points):* The Jedi uses the Force to pull a target towards himself, makign it easier to strike them down. This power is used during the Shooting phase instead of any other weapon or power. Select a single non-vehicle model or IC with 18". On a successful Ld test, the jedi my "pull" the target D6" towards himself.


Sure thing, see nothing wrong with that.



> *Shatterpoint (25 pts): *The skill of Shatterpoint revolves around the force user looking at the molecular makeup of an object and findint the exact spot where the application of tan exact force will destroy the target utterly. This power is used at the start of a Jedi assault phase. Choose a target with 6" (the jedi may already be in close combat with the target). Roll a D6, on a roll of 4+ the target will receive no armour save for the rest of the game. This power may only be used against a single target.


Make it either on a roll of 5+, or perhaps give the model a 2- modifier instead for the rest of the game.



> *Force Mind Trick (20 pts): *Using the force, the jedi can cloud the mind of his opponent. This power is more easily used against the weak minded, but can affect even the most battle hardened warrior if the jedi has sufficient skill. During the shooting phase, choose a target within LOS and 12", take a Leadership test, if successful roll a D6 If the roll is equal to or higher than the targets initiative, the mind trick has worked. A roll of 6 will always mean a successful mind trick. Any target that suffers a successful Mind Trick attack has their initiative reduced to 1 for the remainder of the turn and they may not shoot in their next shooting phase.


Okay, this sounds pretty secure. So be it.

All around, seems to me you're making a stat line for a Jedi Master more than a Jedi Knight. But otherwise, the stats are doable.


----------



## Praxiss

Admittedly i was thinking of Luke Skywalker when i was writing the rules so Jedi MAster is propbably right.

jedi stats. I was looking at malking them tough to kill as, in the canon, they are so fast it is so hard to hit them, but in 40k there is no way of expressing this other than to up the T and Svs so they can take more punishment.

My thinking with the invul saves was to avoid a player taking a 3+ save vs a lascannon. Even a Jedi Master woudl have a hard time deflecting a cannon blast with a saber. I thought a 4+ could be thought as their chance to dive out of the way and avoid the shot altogether.

With the saber. I guess in game terms a Force Weapon works better. My only convcern would be that the jedi doens't channel the force through his saber to make it cut through stuff, it just does. if it was a force weapon it woudl only kill once per assault. The way i wrote it you still get an invul save, just a weak one, maybe to show that you moved aside and the saber just nicked you instead of a kill blow. I also toyed with the idea of having it wound on a 2 or a 3+. 
EDIT: Just thogh, if i make it a relic blade it will usually wound on a 3 anyway. i'll do that.


I dont see the resiliency power thing being a problem. Poison weapons would still wound, it woudl just be on a 4+ instead of a 2+.

I've edited the original stats to relect a Master. Tweaked a few bits and bobs. Also added another Force power and some lightsaber upgrades to play with. If anyoen fancies play testing this it could be fun..


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## teh1337llama

Ok... Yes the movies are ultimately canon. Also, the movies are bound by availible special effects, storylines etc.
It's much easier to have the lightsabers leave scorch marks, but also think that just by being turned on they can pierce through a couple solid feet of durasteel.
And about stormtrooper armor being weak? Ever heard of something called the stormtrooper effect? Here, i'll summarize it. Stormtroopers are such crap because they need to be for the story. Stormtrooper armor is highly advanced, much better than clone armor, phase 1 and 2. 

"Make it either on a roll of 5+, or perhaps give the model a 2- modifier instead for the rest of the game."
Shatterpoint literally reduces any sort of material to dust.

"Sv: I'd consider a 5+ armour and keep the 3+ Invul save instead, seeing as they wear what basically amounts to t-shirts (i.e. nothing) in the 40K universe."
I'm not sure if this would work in the game, but i think it'd be canonical to have no armor save and a 4+ invuln, against bolters. Maybe make lightsabers wound on a 2+, it seems like you just need to hit with them, not to actually hurt them.

"Right, firstly, the force doesn't directly affect those stats, nor simutaneously unless used by a really skilled Jedi (Master class, etc.). So I would change the rules a bit and offer the same effects for simplicity's sake, but make it so that only one of the benefits can be chosen each player turn."
The force doesnt actually enhance those things, but i think those are made to represent their semi-precognition.


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## Praxiss

teh1337llama said:


> "Make it either on a roll of 5+, or perhaps give the model a 2- modifier instead for the rest of the game."
> Shatterpoint literally reduces any sort of material to dust.
> True, but in game turns that would be extremely harsh. A -2 mod would work well, termie armour becomes carapace armour, power armour becomes.....tissue paper.
> 
> "Sv: I'd consider a 5+ armour and keep the 3+ Invul save instead, seeing as they wear what basically amounts to t-shirts (i.e. nothing) in the 40K universe."
> I'm not sure if this would work in the game, but i think it'd be canonical to have no armor save and a 4+ invuln, against bolters. Maybe make lightsabers wound on a 2+, it seems like you just need to hit with them, not to actually hurt them.
> That's what i was thinking. I have changed it to a 5+ save as in the Eu the Jedi now where padded combat suits when they fight.
> 
> "Right, firstly, the force doesn't directly affect those stats, nor simutaneously unless used by a really skilled Jedi (Master class, etc.). So I would change the rules a bit and offer the same effects for simplicity's sake, but make it so that only one of the benefits can be chosen each player turn."
> The force doesnt actually enhance those things, but i think those are made to represent their semi-precognition.


Again, that was my thinking. I have changed it to a +2 to I in the profiel but given him furious charge


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## MontytheMighty

like I was asking earlier, what is the 40k equivalent of a jedi?

some sort of eldar psyker unit with power weapon seems about right


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## heretical by nature

i think its a matter of area and distance... if its a normal space marine vs a jedi my moneys on the jedi but at a distance it might be more even... might. the jedi would have to close in on the space marine as bolter rounds come flying at him, also i think if the space marine had a flamer that would hurt...


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## scolatae

seriosly jedi would die (i'm assumming their fighting grey knights) lightsabers are no match for force weapons and THEY DON'T WEAR ARMOUR one storm bolter shot to head = dead jedi. also if they came to the 40k universe they would be driven insane by the power of the warp. This wouldn't work vice versa if anything the grey knights would find it easier to kill jedi in the star wars universe, I mean without malignant warp presences preying on their mind they could truly unleash all their psycic might without fear.:so_happy:


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## Prince Endymion

scolatae said:


> seriosly jedi would die (i'm assumming their fighting grey knights) lightsabers are no match for force weapons and THEY DON'T WEAR ARMOUR one storm bolter shot to head = dead jedi. also if they came to the 40k universe they would be driven insane by the power of the warp. This wouldn't work vice versa if anything the grey knights would find it easier to kill jedi in the star wars universe, I mean without malignant warp presences preying on their mind they could truly unleash all their psycic might without fear.:so_happy:


If you're assuming the battle is Jedi Vs Grey Knight, than the Jedi doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning.

Against a single marine (which would never happen) a Jedi has a chance to survive if he knows when to flee.


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## Coder59

MontytheMighty said:


> like I was asking earlier, what is the 40k equivalent of a jedi?
> 
> some sort of eldar psyker unit with power weapon seems about right


I would say an Eldar Warlock


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## Talos

Prince Endymion said:


> Now make that into a movie that litterally changes the way movies are made FOREVER.


Sorry but as a 4th year film student in the process of doing a masters, I would have to disagree. I have yet to every read any papers on how Star wars changed the way movies where made. If you have proof I would love to see it but right now I am going to have to disagree massively.


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## MontytheMighty

scolatae said:


> seriosly jedi would die (i'm assumming their fighting grey knights) lightsabers are no match for force weapons and THEY DON'T WEAR ARMOUR one storm bolter shot to head = dead jedi. also if they came to the 40k universe they would be driven insane by the power of the warp. This wouldn't work vice versa if anything the grey knights would find it easier to kill jedi in the star wars universe, I mean without malignant warp presences preying on their mind they could truly unleash all their psycic might without fear.:so_happy:


well to be fair if you put the Grey Knight in a the Star Wars universe, he'd be unable to use any psychic ability because there's no Warp in the SW universe

for the fight to be interesting at all you'd just have to assume they're fighting in a universe where the Force and the Warp somehow coexist


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## Abbo

Don't forget the wimp factor, the average jedi is a naive pacifistic treehugger, while a spacemarine will do allot to ensure victory.


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## High_Seraph

Abbo said:


> Don't forget the wimp factor, the average jedi is a naive pacifistic treehugger, while a spacemarine will do allot to ensure victory.



No wrong.:nono: Depending on the era the Jedi came from he would be a badass or a pacifist treehugging wimp:shok:


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## Coder59

Talos said:


> Sorry but as a 4th year film student in the process of doing a masters, I would have to disagree. I have yet to every read any papers on how Star wars changed the way movies where made. If you have proof I would love to see it but right now I am going to have to disagree massively.


YEY another Film student. To be honest I allways thought that Star Wars sparked a special effects renneisance rather than a movie making one. About all it did was prove that Science Fiction was a marketable genre.


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## Klomster

I i would try to make a jedi in 40k, i would use inquisitor lord.

Sure, there would have to be a few dudes that are not jedi with him.

But with 3 familiars, they have, I 7. (+1 for each familiar)
And with a warrior.
WS 5.

And with a power weapon. (Come on, it's a power weapon, not even close to a force weapon, if you claim that lightsabers condemn the souls of target for an eternity of pain in the WARP....... no, that's not lightsaber)

And inquisitor have decent bs, 4 or 5, not entirely correct but still.

And an icon of the just (i'm thinking deamonhunter INQ) 4+ inv save.

Jedi for me.

Oh, and the psychic powers, scourging is very good as force lightning.

Hammerhand could double as shatterpoint.

And holocaust could be a version of some kind of mix between force push and throw stuff or lightsaber throw.

Although, he has a power armour for some reaon, but one can live with that, he could be blocking light stuff or something.


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## Prince Endymion

Coder59 said:


> YEY another Film student. To be honest I allways thought that Star Wars sparked a special effects renneisance rather than a movie making one. About all it did was prove that Science Fiction was a marketable genre.


How did it change how movies were made.

Well master film student, the methods used to shoot and make the movie were all pioneered by Lucas. That's what makes him such a genius. He developed new typres of cameras, miniatures, sound elements, and recording techniques that did not previously exist. Every movie made sinse then has used the techniques he invented. Lucas worked closely with Speilberg afterwards and the two colaborated to make other films, and the two - to date are master film makers. 

These were things I learned in the very basic stages of film school, if you're four years in and don't know film-making history, than you should seek a new career for yourself, or perhaps find a competent instructor.


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## Coder59

Prince Endymion said:


> How did it change how movies were made.
> 
> Well master film student, the methods used to shoot and make the movie were all pioneered by Lucas. That's what makes him such a genius. He developed new typres of cameras, miniatures, sound elements, and recording techniques that did not previously exist. Every movie made sinse then has used the techniques he invented. Lucas worked closely with Speilberg afterwards and the two colaborated to make other films, and the two - to date are master film makers.
> 
> These were things I learned in the very basic stages of film school, if you're four years in and don't know film-making history, than you should seek a new career for yourself, or perhaps find a competent instructor.


No need to start flaming Jellybean. And I'm not the one doing the masters I've only just started studying for my degree. But either way I don't rate Lucas as a genius since I feel that Stanley Kubrick, Ridley Scott and James Cameron made better movies. Lucas came up with some flashy effects and one really memorable movie. If you think it was Lucas who was coming up with all the effects and sound techniques I would think again he created ILM but it was the guys working for Lucas who came up with the ideas. And it's pretty obvious that his Direction is lacklustre, you only have to look at the original trilogy to see that Empire and Jedi were better movies and were not directed by Lucas. The only area Lucas really shines in IMO is that of producer.


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## Prince Endymion

Skywalker ranch and ILM aer both the brainchildren of Lucas. 

I won't refute that Stanley Kubrick, Ridley Scott and James Cameron are good directors, although Cameron is the only one among them that strikes me as even being comparable to Lucas or Speilberg.

Ridley Scott made Gladiator, sure, his one hit wonder, but every other mivie he's made is riddled with his own political plugs and ultimately made him little to credit. (Kingdom of Heaven - A good Year - to name a few. flopped at the box office).

As for Kubrik... well he did make Sparticus and Killer's Kiss, both good films, but come one, Eye's Wide Shut? WTF? his career ending with some ofthe worst films I've ever seen,

Cameron I can't argue with, he truly is a genius, and has flare for extremely expensive movies that draw huge crowds. Terminator I & II, Aliens, the Abyss, True Lies, Titanicm, etc. Truly he is a master of his craft.

Cameron is easily the equal of Lucas and Speilberg, possibly even their better, but I am insulted that you even compared Kubrik or Scott to them.


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## Coder59

Prince Endymion said:


> Skywalker ranch and ILM aer both the brainchildren of Lucas.
> 
> I won't refute that Stanley Kubrick, Ridley Scott and James Cameron are good directors, although Cameron is the only one among them that strikes me as even being comparable to Lucas or Speilberg.
> 
> Ridley Scott made Gladiator, sure, his one hit wonder, but every other mivie he's made is riddled with his own political plugs and ultimately made him little to credit. (Kingdom of Heaven - A good Year - to name a few. flopped at the box office).
> 
> As for Kubrik... well he did make Sparticus and Killer's Kiss, both good films, but come one, Eye's Wide Shut? WTF? his career ending with some ofthe worst films I've ever seen,
> 
> Cameron I can't argue with, he truly is a genius, and has flare for extremely expensive movies that draw huge crowds. Terminator I & II, Aliens, the Abyss, True Lies, Titanicm, etc. Truly he is a master of his craft.
> 
> Cameron is easily the equal of Lucas and Speilberg, possibly even their better, but I am insulted that you even compared Kubrik or Scott to them.


Your ignorance on this subject astounds me. Ridley Scott a one hit wonder? Funny I hear he made these movies called Bladerunner, Alien and Thelma and Louise which are aparently really highly regarded. 
And Kubrik? Well he has a few films such as 2001: A Space Odyessey, A Clockwork Orange, Full Metal Jacket and Dr Strangelove to name but a few. 
Lucas is a slipshod director at best which is why he isn't highly regarded as such. He's a producer who had a couple of good ideas and rode them into the dust which explains the current state of the franchise.


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## Prince Endymion

Coder59 said:


> Your ignorance on this subject astounds me. Ridley Scott a one hit wonder? Funny I hear he made these movies called Bladerunner, Alien and Thelma and Louise which are aparently really highly regarded.
> And Kubrik? Well he has a few films such as 2001: A Space Odyessey, A Clockwork Orange, Full Metal Jacket and Dr Strangelove to name but a few.
> Lucas is a slipshod director at best which is why he isn't highly regarded as such. He's a producer who had a couple of good ideas and rode them into the dust which explains the current state of the franchise.


Okay, then we'll have to respectfully disagree. Our oppinions clearly differ and we've managed to hijack this thread (Appologies to the OP).

regardless of his stature as a Directer, Lucas and Star Wars are the topic here, not the other directors, and my statement earlier was not a pointed one. I said what I did becouse I wanted to illustrate that Lucas had every conceivable right to say the EU is not canon, and he has done exactly that.


----------



## Coder59

Prince Endymion said:


> Okay, then we'll have to respectfully disagree. Our oppinions clearly differ and we've managed to hijack this thread (Appologies to the OP).
> 
> regardless of his stature as a Directer, Lucas and Star Wars are the topic here, not the other directors, and my statement earlier was not a pointed one. I said what I did becouse I wanted to illustrate that Lucas had every conceivable right to say the EU is not canon, and he has done exactly that.


Quite right. Although it does seem that the majority of fans have ignored him, good for them too.


----------



## hailene

Just to chime in with another quote:

" After all, one of the "bestseller" books of the recent EU series "New Jedi Order" was the first book, Vector Prime. Only 200,000 of them were sold in hardcover, and this fell to about 110,000 sales for final NJO book The Unifying Force. Paperback sales averaged just 300,000 for the first dozen books of that series, according to Publisher's Weekly. While this was more than enough to make these bestselling books, compare this to the 1.4 million hardcover sales for the novelization of The Phantom Menace or the millions and millions who have seen Star Wars."

The majority of people who have seen Star Wars don't buy EU...anything, really. So to say that most fans choose to ignore him seems a bit off.


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## Daneel2.0

This was done once, in very great detail on this board. The link is below.

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14132&highlight=starwars


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## MontytheMighty

I think unless the Jedi is proficient with something ranged, he's going to have a really tough time closing in
wide spread shotguns or anything rapid-fire (as in 500 RPM or higher) would be extremely hard for a Jedi to dodge or block


----------



## Brother Boozekitty

There is one point I didn't see mentioned here (or perhaps I passed it up) and that is one made in the original trilogy, and further cemented in Episode I; the Phantom Menace. I know you all hate this word, but too bad. Because in this instance, it wins.

Midiclorians.

The microscopic life form in the Star Wars universe is essential to the manipulation of the force. Without it, there is no force-push, force-throw, etc. In the Star Wars universe, midiclorians are in and on everything and thus manipulating items, people, etc is simply manipulating this tiny life form, not so much the item itself. In the WH40K universe there are no midi's, and so nothing can be manipulated. The Jedis force powers outside of his own self-control (like say, speed) are nulled, flat-out.

Also, there seems to be some confusion about the weaponry involved here, which surprises me, to say the least. Blasters do not shoot "lasers", they hurl a congealed ball of super-heated gas. That is why blaster bolts explode and knock people over in the movies; it's the concussive force of the detonations. A laser would simply burn a hole through the target, not explode and knock them into walls. They blast thing. Hence, "blasters".

That said, the lightsabers ability to deflect said blaster bolts is reliant completely on the emitters energy field repelling the "x-cited" containment field around the bolt itself. Seeing as how WH40K bolter rounds have no containment field for the energy to repel off of one another, it would be like hitting the bolter round with a baseball bat, and would achieve the same effect. The Jedi would be force-sensitive soup. 

In a less technical aspect (and to rehash what has been said before), blasters are inaccurate, unreliable, and slow-firing. Even so, once a Jedi is faced with full-auto fire they go down quickly, even venerable masters like Ki-Adi-Mundi did in the opening scenes of the jedi execution of Episode III. So knowing now that a jedi cannot simply deflect bolter rounds or push our Astartes bretheren away, what is left but to retreat (typical jedi tactic) or stand and die? (apparently also common, according to George "Franchiseacide" Lucas)

Oh, and I am a former SW enthusiast, not some kind of freak hater of the genre. I simply made the transition from it to 40K because well... 40K is like Star Wars. For grown-ups. With delicious violence and no ultra-cheese romance scenes.


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## Klomster

Ahhhh, ultra-cheese romance scenes.

But there are loads of them in 40k!

An ork when he sees battle, hive worker finding his true love and........ well, perhaps not very romantic.

After all, the most romantic you will get out of most orks is "-I luv smashin umies!" and that hive worker later found out that his true love was a ganger and sent him dying at the hands of the underhive after taking all his worthly possesions.

But to make a somewhat equal matchup, we have to make our combatants fight on the same terms.

So either warp and force, or none of them.

And in the case with a normal jedi without the force vs a space marine...... *insert unpleasant violence here*


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## Praxiss

This is why i tried to make the rules for a Jedi. It would make it easier to pipcture the fight if we had a set of rules for each combatant.

I think, in cc, the Jedi woudl tear the marine a new one. it's closing with the marine that might present a problem.


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## Klomster

Haven't we all agreed upon that jedi would loose on range and win in cc?

Like.... the last 8 pages of posts?

Oh, and remember a really important factor none have taken up so far as so important.

Mentality.

A jedi never attacks, he is a defender of peace! He only draws his blade if the enemy attacks.
So wherever it was, the stealth advantage the jedi would have is lost. (Unless jedi see space marine do something..... unpleasant)

Whereas a space marine has no qualms in what or who he attacks.
A planetary governor? Angry aliens? Rebellious civilians? All three things that a jedi would have great issues mentally with attacking.


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## elkhantar

I simply can't agree with the jedi winning in cc so easily. If the marine has a power weapon, he's toast, since the marine can parry his sword just fine, probably has a longer reach with his tremendous height, can put far more strength and weight behind his blows (they weight almost a ton with their power armour which further strengthens their blows) and probably has lived more and has more real combat experience (and is not afraid of using dirty tricks, can spit acid venom, etc etc).

And also, why on earth do we assume that lightsabers can cut through anyting with ease? There are plenty of instances in the movies where they do not, such as the door in the first trilogy. In fact, in the very wookiepedia it says that the speed of the cut depends on the density of the material. How dense is the marine's power armour?

And that's even before the imperium hears of mandalorian iron, cortosis, phrik and the other thousand ways to defeat a lightsaber...


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## hailene

I think it's accepted that in either fight, the first real hit is likely to be the last hit. If a chainsword can cut through SM plate easily enough, it's reasonable to say a light saber could as well.

And keep in mind that the SM may or may not have years of experience on his side. Yoda lived for, what, 900 years? And that may not be necessarily the longest lived Jedi.

And the Jedi aren't exactly the most honorable people either. Obi and his master double teamed Darth Maul without a thought. Obi and Anakin doubled up on Count Dooku. And after he beat them, Yoda stepped up without even letting him get a breather. Plus when they went to arrest Palpy, they sent...4? Jedi.

Obviously fair fights don't mean too much to them.

And I'd be wary of Wookiepedia. It drips with EU. Something we've already established as non-canon.


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## The Holy Heretic

I think this would be determined only by who wrote the script


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## ICatoSicarius235

Daneel2.0 said:


> This was done once, in very great detail on this board. The link is below.
> 
> Star Wars meets 40k!!!!!


It consisted of overwank, mudslinging, and more overwank. Go back to Stardestroyer.net


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