# Rubrics to the Max



## hippogryph (Oct 26, 2008)

I'm looking to get opinions on the Thousand Sons and how others use them in battle.

Oh and can these guys always shoot up to twenty four inches when they move due to slow and purposeful?


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## killmaimburn (Mar 19, 2008)

@ question #2 : YES


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Use them aganst MEQ's. No brainer there.


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## Deneris (Jul 23, 2008)

And the Thousand Sons can charge after rapid-firing; a rather nasty surprise for any survivors of the AP3 fusilade.

How to use them? Depends if they'll be you're main troops choice, or just specialists versus MEQs.

Main: The more the merrier; I tend to field 3 units of 9 in most 1500pt armies, along with rhinos to geth them there. At 1750 I upgrade two of the rhinos to Land Raiders to REALLY amke sure the Sons get where they're needed. They're also a great "speedbump" unit, as their Invul save and Fear-lessness keeps them in combat til the last man. The Sorcerer even gives you the chance of taking out any multi-wound nasties that might come along. Give the sorcerer Doom Bolt unless you think Wind of Chaos will see more use.

Specialists: Take a squad and put 'em in a rhino. Drive the rhino up to the problem MEQ squad, and pop them out. The sorcerer should then be armed with The Wind of Chaos for more close-ranged MEQ mayhem.


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## hippogryph (Oct 26, 2008)

Many thanks Deneris! And others I'm considering using them with plague marines for a fun list.


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## Deneris (Jul 23, 2008)

Fun for you, but won't be fun for your enemies :wink:

Glad to be of service. Let me know if you need any other Thousand Sons help.


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## hippogryph (Oct 26, 2008)

Any suggestions for anti-tank the sorcerers have str 8 spells but that's about it right?


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Rubric guys don't do anti tank. You are paying a ton of points for them, so if all they do is stand around watching their sorceror fire bolts at tanks, they will be stunningly inefficient.

Best to set the sorc up for shooting MEQs, as Deneris suggests. Tanks can be engaged by other parts of my army.

I should say, I saw a fairly stunning loss by a Tsons player at last year's GT heats. It was on a table next to mine and he was up against a guy with 15 terminators (6 assault cannons between them, back when you could do that), three predators with heavy bolters and lascannons, and a LD 10 librarian. The Tsons guy found his ap3 bolters were useless, his invulnerable save was barely relevent because he was taking dozens of armour saves a turn and his sorcerors were getting dispelled. To add insult to injury the lord with daemon gun spent most of the game shoot himself in the head.

The difficulty with rubric troops is that they are highly specialised for killing MEQs. They are pretty good at it, but they are pretty bad at most other stuff. An army with a heavy rubric theme is going to want to have a lot of anti tank and horde killing stuff elsewhere. Playing against them I find that just infiltrating kroot into a wood somewhere within 24" of them makes them die eventually, and with no real risk to me.


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## Deneris (Jul 23, 2008)

Hence why even most "pure" Thousand Sons armies have to turn towards "associates" to deal with annoying gitz like terminators, such as a Havoc squad with 4 Meltaguns and a Champ with a powersword (For beating those loyalist swine who only have powerfists, thus striking after the sword). 

Another option is the ever-popular Daemon Prince (Which some fluff-purists cringe at) who can handily take out Terminator squads- Assuming he isn't shot to pieces, first.

Another popular option is Obliterators; Truly, there are few problems that these guys can't solve with the right energy weapon. A related option is taking Terminators of your own and give them the MoT and powerweapons, thus allowing them to better survive the return attacks AND strike before the Loyalists and equivalents.

And if I knew you were taking Kroot, I'd simply send in a dread to "play" with them, preferably armed with a heavy flamer :wink:...


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Deneris said:


> And if I knew you were taking Kroot, I'd simply send in a dread to "play" with them, preferably armed with a heavy flamer :wink:...


Well, not really all that simply. Kroot infiltrate or outflank, so they tend not to hang around near dreads with heavy flamers. They also have some friends, and some of their friends have railguns, so the life expectancy of a dread can be pretty low - especially if you have only a couple of vehicles for me to shoot at.

It just seems like you are starting from a point with a few highly specialised units (the Tsons), then adding a few more highly specialised units to deal with other stuff. All your opponent has to do is take out one link in the chain, and the whole thing starts to look very dodgy. 

Normally, you would probably aim to have a core of flexible troops that could take all comers and then fill in the gaps a bit with other selections. With Tsons it seems like you have some pretty big gaps to fill, and not a whole lot of points with which to fill them.

I guess you can just take a bunch of obliterators, and have a model count of about 35.


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## Sieg (Dec 3, 2007)

When i use my T-Sons I field 3 squads,1 rhino, 2 land raiders, and 2 demon princes. Its a very low model count but it is all (minus the rhino) extremely difficult to take down.


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## hippogryph (Oct 26, 2008)

Excellent advice gentlemen I really appreciate it. I don't plan to field a pure force and I don't even know if it's fluffy to field them with plague marines. (Yes I am something of a fluff follower.)


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## Deneris (Jul 23, 2008)

Someguy said:


> Well, not really all that simply. Kroot infiltrate or outflank, so they tend not to hang around near dreads with heavy flamers. They also have some friends, and some of their friends have railguns, so the life expectancy of a dread can be pretty low - especially if you have only a couple of vehicles for me to shoot at.
> 
> It just seems like you are starting from a point with a few highly specialised units (the Tsons), then adding a few more highly specialised units to deal with other stuff. All your opponent has to do is take out one link in the chain, and the whole thing starts to look very dodgy.
> 
> ...


Sad but true- When your "basic" soldier costs 23pts, the Havoc marines are actually a bargain; AND they have another attack, as well as better options for the squad leader.

And I was merely joking about the dread; I've learned from bitter experience the joys of railguns. Your theorhetical kroot would most likely find themselves either chewing on Thousand Sons, or shooting at them. In any case, my local Tau player doesn't take them anymore after I tied up the squad by turning two members into Spawn- Rather easy with T3 and lords/DPs with multiple spells.

In any case, any Sons force WILL be outnumbered by the enemy, so you're quite right about the count of 35- That might even be generous.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Fair enough. I salute the effort of trying to make it work. I'm not sure I would advise a new player to go down this route though, unless they are sure they know what's coming.

Sadly, the same goes for a lot of "fluffy" armies. By giving each of the cult troops a very defined role you end up with pretty limited options if you take a lot of one type. By contrast, "unfluffy" combos like slaanesh sorcerors leading khorne berzerkers (it's hard to think of a less fluffy option to be honest*) work rather well.

*No criticism is intended of people running this set up, especially since I've been known to do it myself. :victory:


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

hippogryph said:


> ...and I don't even know if it's fluffy to field them with plague marines. (Yes I am something of a fluff follower.)


Its totally not :nono:

BUT its good gamewise. DG are dead hard, 1ksons are dead hard, its hell to pick targets amongst that. Add up some AT and some CC-plan and you should have a totally working army


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

MaidenManiac said:


> DG are dead hard, 1ksons are dead hard, its hell to pick targets amongst that.


Debatable.

1k sons are resistant to the standard types of stuff that kills MEQs. It isn't really worth trying to hit them with plasma guns, battlecannons and power weapons. However, they are just as easy to kill as ordinary marines for small arms fire, and they cost 50% more than a normal marine.

Plague marines are hugely resistant to small arms fire and ordinary attacks in cc. It isn't really worth trying to hit them with lasguns, heavy bolters and submunition rounds. However, they are just as easy to kill as ordinary marines for most anti-MEQ weapons (though their toughness sometimes still helps a little), and they cost 50% more than a normal marine.

I would argue that it makes little sense to combine Tsons and plague marines. Your opponent can just fire his battlecannons at your plague marines and his lasguns at the Tsons. At least if you go for a lot of one kind or the other you will make some of the other guy's weapons ineffective.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> And the Thousand Sons can charge after rapid-firing; a rather nasty surprise for any survivors of the AP3 fusilade.


Don't forget that you will be at Init 1 when you charge your Tsons in. Not exactly the best idea imho. Unless it is a unit with a shitload of attacks and I really need to cut down on taking more, I will stand back and take the charge, allowing my guys to go at initiative.

Thousand Sons will be outnumbered by the opponent damn near 90% of the time due to their cost. However, they are dead hard and the ability to fire 24" on the move should not be underestimated. As far as AT power goes, Oblits are hands down the best thing you could put in your army for the purpose as there is nothing on the table that is safe from a unit of Oblits. Vehicles, terminators, meq's, etc, are all choice targets for Obliterators while hordes are not. When faced with a horde, use the Tsons for the little guys and the Oblits to target MC's and vehicles.


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## the cabbage (Dec 29, 2006)

Hmmmm obliterators. Fluffy and hard eh!

But I hate the models, whats to do?


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## Deneris (Jul 23, 2008)

the cabbage said:


> Hmmmm obliterators. Fluffy and hard eh!
> 
> But I hate the models, whats to do?


Make your OWN Obliterators with the wonderful CSM Termies and whatever bitz you have around.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

The Wraithlord said:


> Don't forget that you will be at Init 1 when you charge your Tsons in. Not exactly the best idea imho. Unless it is a unit with a shitload of attacks and I really need to cut down on taking more, I will stand back and take the charge, allowing my guys to go at initiative.


That's not quite correct, I don't think. I can't find anything in either the Relentless or Slow and Purposeful boxes in the USR section that mentions striking at I1 in assaults.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

BBB Pg 76, Slow and Puposeful - "...always count as moving through difficult terrain (including in assaults)..."

Follow that up with Assaulting Through Cover on pg 36 which says if a unit takes a difficult/dangerous terrain test during their assault move they will be striking at Init 1. The only thing that alters this is the use of frag grenades or equivalents and as Thousand Sons don't have frags..... Init 1 on the charge. And yes it sucks large ones


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

The Wraithlord said:


> BBB Pg 76, Slow and Puposeful - "...always count as moving through difficult terrain (including in assaults)..."
> 
> Follow that up with Assaulting Through Cover on pg 36 which says if a unit takes a difficult/dangerous terrain test during their assault move they will be striking at Init 1. The only thing that alters this is the use of frag grenades or equivalents and as Thousand Sons don't have frags..... Init 1 on the charge. And yes it sucks large ones


Ah, I missed that. Thanks for the clarification. *can't wait to pull this on her buddy next time they play*


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## hippogryph (Oct 26, 2008)

The initiative 1 totally killed that idea for me (cries). Good to know though


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Actually it isn't that bad Hip. Tsons are hard enough to handle the lower init in combat for a single round in general. And if you are up against things like Orks or Berzerkers with a cubic assload of attacks, charging them is FAR preferable to allowing them to get the extra attacks. Don't forget, being Slow and Purposeful allows them to rapid fire those AP3 bolters and still charge. Believe me when I say that that is freakin HUGE.


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## hippogryph (Oct 26, 2008)

Yes but after rapid firing your likely no longer in charge range.


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## Deneris (Jul 23, 2008)

Not always: you enemy might remove models from the back of the squad hoping he'll get a charge in next turn, or he might not want to remove a special/heavy weapon trooper or a sarge...


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