# Tactics to Deal with Cheaters



## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

Here's a list of common cheats to look out for. Hopefully we can make it a sticky so we can keep adding to known cheats.

1. Your opponent moves models 2-3 inches more than they are allowed.
- This is done by them holding the tape measure high enough off the table that you cannot effectively tell what their movement should have been.

2. Your opponent "accidentally" bumps or knocks down their own models in order to reposition them better.
- This is an obvious cheat. I would only call someone on it if they either repositioned models illegally or they performed the bump and move repeatedly.

3. Your opponent takes back moves without your permission.
- Obvious.

4. Your opponent premeasures moves.
- Not so easy to catch. Beware where their tape measure (and other measurement devices) is laying on the table. 

5. Your opponent measures from front to back when moving models.
- They hold the tape measure at the front of the models base and proceeed to move teh model so the back of its base is at the end of their movement. This gains an extra inch.

6. Your opponent picks up their hits instead of their misses.
- It took me a little bit to get this one. If your opponent rolls 200 dice for attacks and picks up their hits, they can pick up extra dice that are "Hits" and you won't know any better. When we roll dice we are supposed to remove t he missed ones. It actually states that in the rules.

7. Your opponent questions your every move.
- This is done to put you on edge

8. Your opponent whines about how lucky you are and how the dice hate them.
- This is also done to put you on edge.

9. Your opponent cheats on wound allocation.
- Obvious

10. Your opponent cheats with modifiers.
- Obvious
　
Pleas feel free to add any more I may have missed.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

pathwinder14 said:


> 4. Your opponent premeasures moves.
> - Not so easy to catch. Beware where their tape measure (and other measurement devices) is laying on the table.


Beware also that they may have measured body parts such as their fingers, hands and arms. If someone seems to be leaning on the table more than necessary, check they aren't placing their hands/arms near essential units to measure charge ranges etc. You think no-one would do it, but...



pathwinder14 said:


> 7. Your opponent questions your every move.
> - This is done to put you on edge
> 
> 8. Your opponent whines about how lucky you are and how the dice hate them.
> - This is also done to put you on edge.


Is this actually cheating or just bad sportsmanship? I'd put it under the heading of "table-talk" rather than cheating.

Also look away from the table as little as possible. It's very easy to turn around and then suddenly that Nob with a Klaw in a 30 strong Ork squad is an inch closer than he should be to your lines, and consequently able to charge this turn instead of the next.

Also if YOU don't know the rule, FIND IT in the rule book instead of just assuming the opponent is telling the truth. I know someone who claimed bullshit Wraithlord coversaves/firing lanes for an entire tournament because no-one checked what the actual rule was.


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## GWLlosa (Sep 27, 2009)

My personal most aggravating form of cheat is the "roll-off guy". 

There's a section in the rulebook that mentions that if the players disagree, the simple expedient of a roll-off can get the game back on track. 

This player will then exploit that to the fullest by always misinterpreting rules.

Example: "You can't charge me, you ran in the shooting phase." "That's not how I remember, roll off! 4+ to charge?"

"You can't shoot all your guns, you moved full speed!" "That's not how I remember, roll off! 4+ to shoot?" 

"You can't take both armor and cover saves, you pick the best one of the available ones!" "I don't think so, roll off! 4+ to get both saves?" "But I have the rulebook right here..." "NO WAY man, you're slowing down the game! It says to just roll off in these situations!"

etc., etc... And god help you if the rule actually is a more complex one. Its like he's trying to justify cheating by saying its a "4+" to do it. It makes it very tempting to try and play it back at him, ala:

"My LRBT Tank Shocks your Monolith. Its instantly blown away, cause I have a bulldozer. Oh, that's not how it works? Roll off! 4+ to instagib the Monolith!"

But then I would feel bad, lol.


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## MyI)arkness (Jun 8, 2008)

that roll off stuff sounds ridiculous.. 

I dont think questioning every move and whining about bad luck is cheating though, unless they do that every game, but then again he might just be not very fond of rules and wants to make sure stuff is right, or the guy is sensitive/nervous and cant take a few bad rolls.

One thing i experienced, was when my enemy had to roll some Critical invus. he had to roll 2 but rolled 3, all of them failing, so he said he will reroll and made both saves. I figured id be pesky and made him take the first two dice that fell out of his hand first time xD, he might have very easily just accepted rolls if they favored him.


Otherwise you need to go to spectators so that cheater will get bored to run around alone in server.


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## Sororitas (Feb 16, 2010)

another thing I experienced is when there was my command squad, which had colonel straken in it, and they were in close combat with a venerable dreadnaught which had been destroyed but had hit at the same time as straken. So we were allocating wounds when he said that upgrade characters counted as independant characters for the case of close combat.

I knew it wasn't and eventually I got the rule book and found out that it was wrong. He immediately went and said that we had to redo the combat and before I knew it he was re-rolling the dice and I went along with it.

is that counted as cheating, because I think it is


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

pathwinder14 said:


> 6. Your opponent picks up their hits instead of their misses.
> - It took me a little bit to get this one. If your opponent rolls 200 dice for attacks and picks up their hits, they can pick up extra dice that are "Hits" and you won't know any better. When we roll dice we are supposed to remove t he missed ones. It actually states that in the rules.


This isn't always cheating. I do it when the number of success' is significantly less than the number of fails, like when rolling 6+'s.


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## Sororitas (Feb 16, 2010)

I agree with that, I always pick up my hits instead of misses


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> This isn't always cheating. I do it when the number of success' is significantly less than the number of fails, like when rolling 6+'s.


As per the rules you pick up and remove your misses. To pick up hits and leave misses on the table allows you to grab extra dice that "Hit" (ones that really missed) because your opponent cannot see into your hand or directly beneath it.

As per rules you have to pick up and discard your misses leaving the hits for your opponent to view before you proceed.


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

I bought every codex because of one form of cheating. Basically your opponent (sometimes simply because he's doing terribly) starts "misinterupting" or even creating special rules for units or models during the game. I had this happene so many times against various players I just bought everyone's codex and started getting a basic understanding of what armies I would be facing. Note the surprise on many a mug when I corrected them during play on their own army.

Now agreed this isn't always cheating because some newbies just don't know, BUT if you've been playing this army for years and the codex has been out for more than a year you should know better (3+ invul save on a unit because some special character joined them with a 3+ invul, get the flip out of here!).

Another one I use to hate that I'm so glad the rulebook cleared up, the pile in. I actually use to play a tyranid player who would simply "dump" his horde units on top of your unit, thus distorting the lines of who could fight and who couldn't. When pulled up on it, he would simply say "oh they're all in combat anyway, what does it matter?". When I'm facing a horde of genestealers against my guard unit it matters a helluva a lot.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

pathwinder14 said:


> As per the rules you pick up and remove your misses. To pick up hits and leave misses on the table allows you to grab extra dice that "Hit" (ones that really missed) because your opponent cannot see into your hand or directly beneath it.
> 
> As per rules you have to pick up and discard your misses leaving the hits for your opponent to view before you proceed.


I don't have my rulebook on me, can you give me a page for the quote so I can check it out?


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## Annabelle (Nov 24, 2008)

I always pick up misses first so everyone can see the hits, but I was curious what the book said. There is no actual rule either way, just a suggestion on pg 19 "We find it is quickest to pick up the dice that rolled a successful result at each stage and roll them again".


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## don_mondo (Jan 28, 2007)

pathwinder14 said:


> 4. Your opponent premeasures moves.


Just an FYI, this is legal. You're allowed to premeasure a move and decide whther or not to move, etc.


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## Sororitas (Feb 16, 2010)

its measuring to hit, like with a gun, that is illegal isn't it?


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## don_mondo (Jan 28, 2007)

Any pre-measurement not specifically allowed is not allowed. Movement section, page 11, says: "it is perfectly fine to measure a unit's move in one direction and then change your mind and decide to move somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely) or decide not to move it at all." So pre-measuring movement is allowed. But yeah, pre-measuring shooting range, definitely not allowed.


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## flankman (Jan 26, 2009)

dont forget premesuring assaults

and then theres the ''oh i forgot my codex so you cant prove me wrong'' bullshit

this one chaos player playing againts my friend: who was new to the game and dint know how some armies work told him that his chaos lord with a khorn deamon weapon gets to attack even if he rolls ones on his demon weapon and that demonic possesion doesnt make him lose a BS


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## Sororitas (Feb 16, 2010)

lol

I hate people who think they know everything even though they have only just started collecting, I once played a newbie to the game he collected SM and he tried to convince me that terminators aren't affected by dangerous terrain


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## Lucio (Aug 10, 2009)

Dice complaining and compliments on good rolls are cheating? You can't be serious?


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## Sororitas (Feb 16, 2010)

lol what? how could that be cheating


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## timsmith (Nov 30, 2008)

One thing I always agree on BEFORE the game starts is to re-roll ALL and ANY cocked dice. Too many times i see players picking up the GOOD cocked dice and re-rolling the BAD ones. 

Alot of the cheating mentioned in the original post can be mitigated somewhat by having a conversation at the start of the game, not all but some of it. 

Dont be afraid to call some 1 on something, i do and ive been called on rules before and i think im pretty damm good with them and when i have double checked i was indeed wrong. You cant be right 100% of the time. 

If your reading this and you cheat to win.......DONT its a game of toy soldiers get a life!!!

Tim


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

This is a hobby game with complex and confusing rules. Me and my friends allow a little leeway when it comes to the rules. This game is not a computer game with clear define rules, its a written game with grey area rules. So if your a rule nazi I would simply refuse to play ya. I hate playing a game with a spectator or opponet who questions every move you make and tries to find ways around the rules. Just play.


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> I don't have my rulebook on me, can you give me a page for the quote so I can check it out?


Page 19 suggest picking up hits actually and then rolling them again to see what wounded. I forgot about that. However that is stated so that you do not have to get out more dice. 
The argument I was making about the rules however quotes page 25 for allocating wounds on complex units in the right column...1st paragragh, " We find the clearest way of doing this is to literally pick up the dice that have scored wounds and place them next to the models they have wounded". 

To do this you would have had to leave your successful wound rolls on the table and have removed fails. It is a common player courtesy to let your opponent see your successful hits and successful wounds. If you pick the sucessful rolls up your opponenet cannot see into your hand and thus has to trust you. Basicall you roll all your shots/attacks, remove the misses, and roll the sucesses in order to wound. 



don_mondo said:


> Just an FYI, this is legal. You're allowed to premeasure a move and decide whther or not to move, etc.


Yes but you cannot keep premeasuring until you find somewhere you want to go. You can only premeasure you move once. If you decide not to go that way you cannot choose to go somewhere else. You have to either move where you originally measured or stay put.


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## Jack Mac (Apr 29, 2009)

pathwinder14 said:


> Yes but you cannot keep premeasuring until you find somewhere you want to go. You can only premeasure you move once. If you decide not to go that way you cannot choose to go somewhere else. You have to either move where you originally measured or stay put.


Nah. It does specifically say you can even move somewhere else (page 11, first paragraph).

However, one thing I didn't know: once you have moved unit A and gone onto the next unit, you can't go back and re-move unit A.


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

Concerning movement I have always been of the mind that a player may move one model of unit A, if he doesn't like that positioning may move him back and change directions. Now I do not accept moving an entire unit then saying "oh I didn't want to do that" and moving back, reason being he/she won't be able to place the unit in the exact same spot (possibly moving them 1 to 2 inches without even realizing) thus denying me crucial shots and/or assault ranges. 

Furthermore I do not allow moving unit A, then moving unit B, then going back and moving unit A. This is more so of the speed of the game than anything. You do have players who will move their entire army and then want to reorganize it. I don't think so pal, just like in real combat if you guys walked into that booby trap them blamo, there is no rewind button in war.

Concerning dice rolling: the group I use to play with we would allow the opponent to careful watch as we picked up successful rolls (this is just a courtesy especially when you play Orks and 20 of them just assaulted one of their units, I mean that's 80 die). So we both confirm before rolling what the result needed for success is, usually roll them in the largest number possible for one hand and then both watch as the owning player picks out the successful rolls. I know that sounds like a long process, but it's way better than the speedy result guy who picks his dice up so fast you could swear he had a couple of 1's in there.


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

Jack Mac said:


> Nah. It does specifically say you can even move somewhere else (page 11, first paragraph).
> 
> However, one thing I didn't know: once you have moved unit A and gone onto the next unit, you can't go back and re-move unit A.


Wow I learned something new. Thought it was just once.


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

With the dice picking up thing, I always favour removing fails, but if I'm rolling for sixes, its just much easier to pick up the 6's 

Aslong as you keep a real good eye on your opponent while they do it should be fine


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## countchocula86 (Sep 1, 2008)

Im just curious, what is "premeasuring"? And why is it so pervasively evil?


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> This is a hobby game with complex and confusing rules. Me and my friends allow a little leeway when it comes to the rules. This game is not a computer game with clear define rules, its a written game with grey area rules. So if your a rule nazi I would simply refuse to play ya. I hate playing a game with a spectator or opponet who questions every move you make and tries to find ways around the rules. Just play.


On the other hand, I have a friend who, when you disagree with him on the rules, will often say "Dude if your going to be a dick about the rules then I am not playing". Of course, you want to be a good friend and not have him get angry and leave, but he has often done this during times when he was clearly wrong about the rule and several people agreed he was. 

My no. 1 rule is if you disagree on an important rule, look it up before moving on. This may make the game take a long time. 

My no. 2 rule is, don't play warhammer if you don't have the time to play a game which may take a long time.


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## bakoren (Nov 16, 2009)

countchocula86 said:


> Im just curious, what is "premeasuring"? And why is it so pervasively evil?


Taking your tape measure and letting it out 6inches for the move and holding it from your unit to where you plan on moving.

With guns its very very VERY illegal.


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

Arcane I agree and add:

No. 3: If you're playing against someone who is so immature they won't take the time to look up rules so that the game can be played fairly then don't play them.


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## Sororitas (Feb 16, 2010)

VERY VERY VERY ILLEGAL!

I nearly lost a game because someone premeasured every single one of his shooty units

*goes to smack that person over the face*


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## raverboi (Jan 15, 2009)

lol i just love my inquisitorial storm troopers with targeters 
*premesures to his hearts content*
*gets increasingly pissed off that hellguns are str3*

then again, the inquisition in general is pretty hax in some senses
*sniper fires into close combat removing the powerfist*<---- this resulted in the opponent chucking a hissy fit and leaving

but other then that, premesuring is Bad m'kay

also regarding rules, have one of those assault on black reach mini rulebooks on hand
and get some of those colorful tabs and write on them
put one in assault, one in universal rules and one at the beginning of vehicles, i can usually find any rule in less then 30 seconds so that "roll off" BS will not be tolerated


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

Been lucky. At my club, any dispute is always looked up. It is only after rereading the rules with no resolution that a roll off occurs. It is not like people are dealing with a page of rules. There are some super complex, non-intuitive rules floating around.


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

raverboi said:


> ...also regarding rules, have one of those assault on black reach mini rulebooks on hand
> and get some of those colorful tabs and write on them
> put one in assault, one in universal rules and one at the beginning of vehicles, i can usually find any rule in less then 30 seconds so that "roll off" BS will not be tolerated


I like the way you think.


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## Templar (Feb 20, 2010)

I agree

and I like the way the Vindicare works, and also Sniper rifles in the Inquisition codex has BS 2, if you look at the reference sheet it actually doesn't go SNIPER rules its actually got BS 2 in the type reference


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## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Templar said:


> I agree
> 
> and I like the way the Vindicare works, and also Sniper rifles in the Inquisition codex has BS 2, if you look at the reference sheet it actually doesn't go SNIPER rules its actually got BS 2 in the type reference


D0 you mean hits on a 2+?


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## Templar (Feb 20, 2010)

Yeah I mean 2+ srry


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## ThePublic (Apr 8, 2009)

I know it isn't a cheat, but I do have one gripe.

Long ass turns. If you cannot know what you are doing to move your figs in a quick like fashion or shoot or assault in said fashion, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING?

Move is easy as pie, just have a pair of move sticks and move your guys in sets of 2-4 in each hand in roughly the same formation as you had them or short to fill a new formation. I used to play old skool Gretchin where I moved bands of 20 a unit, several units a game and ALWAYS got my biz done quick. It's not cheating, but it is painful to wait forever when your own turn is done so smoothly. Same type of thing goes w/ assaults and shooting, either use tokens to mark the units you have shot/ assaulted, or just move from one side the board to the other. Realistically, folks who are busier running their guys than reguessing their options every phase can get out 5 turns in just over 1.5 hours. (even in bigger games of 2000+).

I know that slow games are common, but they don't have to be folks, be ready and attack, it is a game after all. Play to have fun and get on with it.

Sorry for the rant, it just needed to be said.


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## Templar (Feb 20, 2010)

If your in a tournament you want to take your time, especially if you win something out of it.

but other than that I agree Public


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## BiOHaTe (Nov 19, 2009)

I'm pretty sure you can measure movement and shooting range of the weapon in question when its your turn to assault, shoot, move. then decide not to; any other time is not allowed.


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## Da Joka (Feb 20, 2009)

The thing I hate his people who don't know their own rules, or just say oh yeah I can do that. I've lost a few games by just going with it and not looking it up...

like a game I was playing vs Blood Angels, he was using Corbulo and told me that his cup allowed him to negate one wound a turn for as long as he was within 6" of the unit. As I found out when I got home and reread the codex It was the guys Exanguinator that was allowing that, but 5 outa the 6 times he used, he couldn't have because Corbulo was in an assault, and the wounds where coming form power weapons


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## lokis222 (Mar 14, 2009)

BiOHaTe said:


> I'm pretty sure you can measure movement and shooting range of the weapon in question when its your turn to assault, shoot, move. then decide not to; any other time is not allowed.


You can measure movement and go in the opposite direction. P 11. However, for shooting, you have to first declare if a model is not firing. Then state the unit you plan to shoot. Then measure to see if you can shoot. If you cannot, you cannot choose another unit to target. P16/17 Assault is the same. P33. 

Measuring during the opponents turn seems illegal and I don't thing it is specifically stated as allowed. If it isn't, then you can't. RAW.

I am not sure this is what you mean by your statement tho. Perhaps it is...


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## BiOHaTe (Nov 19, 2009)

I remember once playing when i was 13 (I am 23 now) SM against SM 

Me blacktemplars vs his blood angels. 

He refused to allow me to field any non painted units (i had just started and didn't know much about the rules)

He assaults one of my units, kills them all in CC then he says he is allowed to charge again, killing another squad, then he repeats that again and again until most of my forces are destroyed. My friend is watching and we are like WTF, so i stopped playing. 

Totally killed me inside, i ended up not playing another game again... until now.


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## TreeWithAChainsaw (Feb 22, 2010)

A few years ago, back when I played Guard (my first army, got tired of them), my friend who played Tau told me that you couldn't charge into a combat that was already going on. I couldn't believe a rule so asinine existed, but I trusted my friend so I let him blast my unprotected guardsman squad to pieces. I was naive... 

About the whole picking up the hits instead of misses thing, if there are so many more misses than hits that you don't want to pick them all up, I would suggest pulling out the hits one-by-one and setting them off to the side in such a way that your opponent can see you're not altering the die's value in any way. Then you scoop them all up and roll them at once.


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## bakoren (Nov 16, 2009)

TreeWithAChainsaw said:


> About the whole picking up the hits instead of misses thing, if there are so many more misses than hits that you don't want to pick them all up, I would suggest pulling out the hits one-by-one and setting them off to the side in such a way that your opponent can see you're not altering the die's value in any way. Then you scoop them all up and roll them at once.


That's what my group does, and since we have Khorne Beserkers/Orks/Genestealers, we have usually 30+ dice each assault.


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## Colonel Wolf (Nov 11, 2009)

Two cheats that boil my blood. 

WYSIWYG misuse when someone presents a half finished batch of minitures asking can they use them anyway and neglects to mention that two of the ones without arms are holding elite-mega-death-zappers-of-doom or whatever until they've closed with your armour.

The suddenly occupied transport trick where the vehicle that seems to be just supplying fire support suddenly disgorges troops that were hidden under the table.


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