# Landspeeders/Preds/Dreds and BA in general!



## Alias2003 (Feb 7, 2008)

Hey everyone! Quick question about anti-armor and support vehicles in general!

Right now I have 1 Land Speeder Tornado in my army (http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5510). As I upgrade towards 1500 I was wondering if my army would benefit from increasing the number of landspeeder (Tornados or Multi-Meltas), adding a Predator or a Dred or two. 

As it is a BA army I am focused on CC and I want to continue to theme my army after that by adding another 10 man assault squad and upgrading the current Vet. Assault Squad. My main concern tho is the lack of anti-armor my army appears to suffer from. So my question to the experienced players out there is how would my army benefit most when I increase it to 1500 points.


Thanks Everyone!


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## noodles87 (Jan 29, 2008)

well my personal experience tells me that speeders or attack bikes with multi melters are great for taking out tanks IF.....they last long enough to do the job its one of those if u can get ur shots from close range in early then odds are you are at least going to immobilise them (with the right dice rolls) ive had landspeeders take out crusaders in turns 1 & 2 before but hey can be taken down by light infintary. well worth the 100 pts (being a da player) to take out a crusader


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Generally Blood Angel armies will benefit most from Attack Bikes over Land Speeders when it comes to finding anti-tank firepower. They're quick and cheap.

Predators aren't bad, especially the Baal class ones. I'd stay away from Dreadnoughts, though. They're just not that great for their points.

Katie D


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## Alias2003 (Feb 7, 2008)

Katie you mentioned Attack Bikes over Landspeeders. What is the major advantage over a landspeeder (Besides a reduced point cost). The reason I ask is because I have unpainted landspeeders, but no bikes and want to make sure the unit is worth the $$$. 

Noodles do you normally just field speeders with meltas, or do you go with tornados?

Thanks for the input so far!


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## shortgoth (Feb 5, 2008)

I agree with Katie on this one - in a BA army, attack bikes with multi-meltas are a better choice for pure anti-tank than tornados. Easier to hide, almost as fast, don't need to rely on rending, and half the points. The beauty of the Tornado is that they combine anti-tank (as long as you can roll 6s) with anti-troop - but then BA armies are very good at killing troops already .


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## noodles87 (Jan 29, 2008)

i generally feild 3-5 speeders depending on battle size 

1 with heavy bolter and ass cannon
2 muliti melter and ass cannon
1 typhoon missile launchers and heavy bolter

ranging from 75-100 pts each i can never complain even if i only use them to just get behind the enemy lines to shit up the other player....most of the time im playing against templars so these can be good to lead them around the board by their noses. 

i like bikes but i prefer speeders, bikes i generally find although they get the added +1 toughness in cc they raerly last a turn or 2. which reminds me i need to ask a question about equiping bikers w plasma pistols lol.


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## Janus Blackheart (Jan 24, 2008)

The biggest advantage is you can also assault with an attack bike.


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

Alias2003 said:


> Hey everyone! Quick question about anti-armor and support vehicles in general!
> 
> Right now I have 1 Land Speeder Tornado in my army (http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5510). As I upgrade towards 1500 I was wondering if my army would benefit from increasing the number of landspeeder (Tornados or Multi-Meltas), adding a Predator or a Dred or two.
> 
> ...


Land Speeder tornadoes, With Assault cannons... Cause they're rending :biggrin:


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

noodles87 said:


> i generally feild 3-5 speeders depending on battle size
> 
> 1 with heavy bolter and ass cannon
> 2 muliti melter and ass cannon
> 1 typhoon missile launchers and heavy bolter


You cannot field multi-meltas with assault cannons. The typhoon option says that any land speeder with a HB can take an AC and any speeder with a multimelta can take a HF.

Personally I like speeders. They almost never survive the game, but they can deep strike in to get some really choice shots off or as long as you take a few of them you can race them back into enemy lines to take out basilisks or certain squads.

They're not fantastic for taking out heavy tanks though, since the multimelta is their best way to do so. If you could take a multimelta with an assault cannon they'd be better, but that's just not an option. I usually run with 1 multimelta typhoon and 2 heavy bolter typhoons, using pack tactics to get at side armor or to deal with specific threats.


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## noodles87 (Jan 29, 2008)

quoted from codex da : " any model may replace its heavy bolter for no additional points, one landspeeder not given a typhoon missile launcher can add a heavy flamer or assault cannon for +35 points"

doesnt say u cant have one with melta and ass cannon


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

noodles87 said:


> quoted from codex da : " any model may replace its heavy bolter for no additional points, one landspeeder not given a typhoon missile launcher can add a heavy flamer or assault cannon for +35 points"
> 
> doesnt say u cant have one with melta and ass cannon


Ah, guess my DA codex is old. My SM codex, however, should be up to date. Guess DA have the advantage of being able to field multimelta/ass cannon speeders where codex marines can't.


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## bl0203 (Nov 10, 2007)

I would definitely go w/A-Bikes w/MM, run three of them seperately and use them to kill tanks. As for the the Pred, I run one Baal w/HB and one w/TL LC and HB. The Land Speeders are just too pricey, I really don't like relying on rending to kill tanks IMHO its not that effective. Good Luck!!!


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

Speeders aren't a viable option nowadays.

2 Multimelta Attack bikes or 1 Assault Cannon Speeder? 

I'd cram 6 Multi Melta attack bike into every 1500+ pt BA list.


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

assault cannons and multi meltas great for anti light tank and killing infantry not to forget its only glancing


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Alias2003 said:


> Katie you mentioned Attack Bikes over Landspeeders. What is the major advantage over a landspeeder (Besides a reduced point cost). The reason I ask is because I have unpainted landspeeders, but no bikes and want to make sure the unit is worth the $$$.


Other than their reduced point cost, you get the following.

- The ability to participate in hand to hand combat (sometimes the extra 2 wounds is exactly what's needed to get cause that negative modifier for outnumbering).

- Smaller and easier to hide.

- Won't die to a single shot unless it's S8+.

- Can get an excellent Invulnerable save by using _Turbo Boost_

- Has the mighty twin-linked bolters of *death*!

Those are why I take 'em over Speeders.

Katie D


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## Truthiness08 (Jan 17, 2008)

melta bombs, give an assault squad melt bombs, in addition to a dread or more landspeeders.


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

Truthiness08 said:


> melta bombs, give an assault squad melt bombs, in addition to a dread or more landspeeders.


im taking a dred for my space wolves and 15 blood claws on bikes or jump packs lol


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## Lemartes (Dec 16, 2007)

Katie Drake said:


> - Has the mighty twin-linked bolters of *death*!
> 
> Katie D


That is of course the reason why they are so popular, no kiddin !

However, there is one weapon in the arsenal of the Adeptus Astartes that is even more powerful an feard than the the A-Bikes TL Bolters.

The BS 2 stormbolter of the drop pods.

Lemartes


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## Alias2003 (Feb 7, 2008)

Thanks for all the input everyone. i got a lot more then I expected and as a result I went out and picked up 2 assault bikes, and am going to still somehow squeeze my LS tornado into my army (I'm a big fan of landspeeders). Now I just need to decide which weapons I want to put on them.... Thanks again!



Alias


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

Alias2003 said:


> Thanks for all the input everyone. i got a lot more then I expected and as a result I went out and picked up 2 assault bikes, and am going to still somehow squeeze my LS tornado into my army (I'm a big fan of landspeeders). Now I just need to decide which weapons I want to put on them.... Thanks again!
> 
> 
> 
> Alias


Assault bikes... Do you mean attack bikes? I that's the bike you're on about i suggest A heavy bolter and a multi melta, just for a mix, imagine it, one for Blowing tanks away, and one for killing enemy troops.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Here's an important thing about Attack bikes vs Speeders:

Krak Grenades

I know, it sounds silly to think that a single Krak Grenade attack is going to make any difference to a bike armed with a multimelta.

But just you wait til you miss with that damned melta. I've had it happen. I fired three shots at a friend's Vindicator once, two missed, one immobilized it, but nothing killed it or its big gun...til I said "Oh screw it!" and charged it with the nearest attack bike. I planted a krak grenade on its back end and blew it to hell. Crazy.

Seriously though, don't discount the points advantage. An assault cannon speeder is awesome (Especially since ours can have a multimelta and an assault cannon), but it literally costs twice as much as a multimelta bike, and while there's something to be said for the durability of vehicles vs small arms, and the survivability of fast moving skimmers...a pair of bikes are harder to kill, in most cases, than a single speeder.

However, a reality of the game is that sometime syou have to play with what you got.
That said, a speeder IS a good model, so fielding some won;t hurt you...but given a choice of attack bikes or speeders, bikes are more efficient.

The key to anti-armor for the Blood Angels under their new codex is one simple mantra: Mobile Melta.

Mobile Melta, Mobile Melta, Mobile Melta...chant it with me.

Veteran Assault squad can have two meltaguns, and they have jump packs.
Give them the meltas! Throw a powerfist in there too, bare minimum (More if you can afford it, but they're expensive these days). I can't stress that enough. VAS or HG, either one. Meltaguns + Jump Packs = WIN. Not only can they break tanks, but they can nuke characters, put holes in terminators and pretty much promise a kill or two before you get into the assault. Plasguns are handy but they deny you the charge. Best save those for static fire support.

Multimelta attack bikes are an awesome unit, but throwing a melta onto a land speeder is nice too. Assault Cannon + Melta is a good speeder combo. It packs enough heat to break tanks and thin out troops.

Got a piddly 5 man tac squad you don;t know what to do with? Slap a melta and a fist in there, put them in a rhino and turbo charge them into the fray.

As for dreadnoughts: Furiosos are cool, but they *need* a drop pod if they're actually going to live long enough to mix it up. If you buy Venerable you really should buy extra Armor to go with it. But be careful, the cost of a dreadnought can really snowball, esoecially if you pod it. Our army is expensive enough as it is.

Predators
Baals are lovely. I always bring two, just for the puns if nothing else.
Go for heavy bolter sponsons though. Flamers make awful sponson weapons because they're too short of range and too hard to position both effectively. Most of the time you'll only get to fire one.

However, an Annihilator is fun too, just don;t buy the lascannon sponsons for it. They cost a fortune and if you move at all you;re wasting points. Better to go with HBs...they may not help hunting tanks but they at least let you move and respond to threats more effectively.

Vindicators are fun too, and very Blood Angel...just don't get too attached...they draw a lot of fire and aren't always reliable...but they have a big psychological presence.


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## Sons of Russ (Dec 29, 2007)

Katie Drake said:


> Other than their reduced point cost, you get the following.
> 
> - The ability to participate in hand to hand combat (sometimes the extra 2 wounds is exactly what's needed to get cause that negative modifier for outnumbering).
> 
> ...



and as Galahad mentioned, they have str 6 krak grenades... not to be underestimated on a fast unit that can swing behind rear armour.....

What I have found on the BA list is that if you already have a bunch of bikes (say 2 squads of 3 MM) , then 1-2 Tornados outfitted for troop killing is good for dealing with things you really dont want to get close to with your A-Bikes.

I'm looking at you, Genestealers, Harlies, Slugga's ect....

Its also a great blocking unit when you have a solid firebase. They can't come within 1" of you speeder, if they kill it with shooting, they can't assault anything else. If they dont kill it in shooting, they can assault it (needing 6's to hit.....) and even if they kill it.... Now you have DT between him and your firebase and he can't consolidate after killing speeders.....

If I have to choose between the two... BA MMelta A- Bikes.

If I have a slot to spare.... :grin:


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Actually, I'd base the decision on whether to use the speeders or the bikes on how many other vehicles you have in your army. If you've got a bunch of vehicles already, speeders are great because your opponent won't have the guns to shoot at the speeders and your other vehicles, increasing overall survivability. If you've got almost no vehicles or no vehicles, attack bikes will do you much better.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Not necessarily. 
While it's true that you shouldn't have speeders unless you already pack a lot of armour, the implication that Attack Bikes won't draw fire and make the enemy think twice about where to point his lascannons is a bit off, in my opinion.

If you want to reliably kill bikes, the best way to do it is with high-Str, low-AP weapons like lascannons, meltas and Krak Missiles. If they want to take out that annoying meltabike, they're going to have to dedicate some of their antitank firepower to the task. You *can* do it with bolters and plasguns, but it's easier if you can instakill it.

Speeders are a bad idea in lists that don't have many tanks because it's a no brainer for the enemy to decide where to point his lascannons. Meanwhile in a list that's low on vehicles the bikes will be an easier target for the heavy guns...but at the same time, they're cheaper. One lascannon hit can win 100 VP against a speeder, but you only get 50 for a bike.

Meanwhile in armor heavy lists, both the bikes and the speeders are more survivable, but the bike still has the points advantage. They have to tie up twice as many guns to deny you the same amount of points.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Then again, 5/6 lascannon hits against an attack bike will kill it. 2/6 hits against a skimmer will kill it, not to mention that they have to roll to penetrate too.

I'm also seeing melta bikes coming in at 65 points compared to a melta speeder for 75. For an extra 10 points you get a unit that's twice as durable and can't be tied up in assault. Even an AC/HB speeder is only 80.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

For a start, rolling to penetrate a speeder with a lascannon is pointless. If it's moving fast any hit will glance, and if for some reason you left it parked, 1 is a glance 2+ penetrates.

Yes, it's easier to kill a bike than a speeder with a lascannon (unless it turbo boost), but in a lot of cases it's better to tie up two guns for one turn than one gun for two or three. bikes can also make a lot better use of terrain than speeders can. They're smaller and lower to the ground, making them easier to hide and they don't have that pesky 'flyng above the cover' thing going for them. They're also size 2 while vehicles are size 3, if I recall.

As for the prices, remember we're not talking about regular SM
For ergular SM the AC speeder is the winner by a mile.

We're talking about Blood Angels.
MM bike for BA costs 50
AC speeder for BA costs 100


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

I meant other weapons would have to roll to penetrate, obviously a str 9 weapon will get a roll on the table 

With the reduced cost of the bike and increased cost of the speeder for BAs, it seems like the bike is a much better choice, especially in an assault-focused army like the BA (since you're going to have forward troops to keep other assaulters off your bikes while they zoom up to blow up tanks).

2 multimelta shots seems a lot more handy for tank hunting than an AC and a MM given the points involved and the survivability issue.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

<nods> As I said, under normal SM, the speeder wins out hands down, it;s just too much good stuff to turn down for the points.

But with the costs for Blood Angels the advantages no longer have as much weight. They also just feel more like a Blood Angel unit. Speeders are detached. They move around all over and shoot at things and swoop away. Bikes are more in your face.


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