# CSM juggerlord escort: spawn or bikes?



## venomlust

Hey fellow loyalist slayers!

When I read about 'juggerlords' I see a consensus that there are only two realistic options for a unit to attach to: spawn or bikers. Spawn appear to be the more popular choice. I was wondering why this is the case. I'm a total scrub newbie, so feel free to explain as if to a child.

Why not bikers? How does one effectively use either alongside a juggerlord?


----------



## Nordicus

Personally i have only run bikes as a escort in my games, as I like the wargear options I can give them. I can make them just the way I want them and give them the role that I need in my setup. A retinue of 5 Nurgle bikes alongside my HQ makes it a fast, endurable and scary unit that can deliver him as the deathblow to any unit the way I need.

The spawns I have never used, as I am the same position as you; I don't quite see why I would use them instead. As such, I will be following this thread intrigued to see peoples replies!


----------



## neferhet

If you use bikers to escort the juggerlord you will have the bikes with a cover save and the lord without. this ensue the focused fire from the enemy and a dead lord. spawns are better for this.


----------



## Mossy Toes

Still, a 2+ LOS! save means the Lord won't be in too much danger, as will some clever placement around terrain and the like. Additionally, the Bikers can go flat out to zoom forward, stringing out with the Lord running behind, to get a charge almost anywhere on the board and drag the Lord there with consolidations. Spawn don't have that mobility. Additionally, melta or plasma plus a number of twin-linked bolters give bikers a solid amount of (relentless) shooting.

Spawn do, however, have the added advantage of being very cheap for the sheer number of wounds you get, making the Lord's unit much more tanky (at the cost of no armor or jink saves). All the better if they're Nurgle spawn for no ID. And you know that the enemy are going to be unloading a crapload of firepower into this unit, so you might as well make it damned tough. The only loss of mobility is the loss of turbo-boosting. Make sure that any Lord accompanying them has a solid anti-tank option, though, as bikers have more AT options than spawn--that is to say, they have _some_.

I haven't tried running Spawn, to be honest, but I want to. It's high on my "to try" list...


----------



## LordWaffles

Spawn are the best unit to guard an ic because they synergize so well with our strengths.
Our sorcerers can innately access Biomancy and Telepathy, the first can give the squad feel-no-pain, the second can give shrouded and stealth. Both make the spawn the superior recipient due to having more wounds to take FnP on, and the easy access to terrain to counteract not having a save. I've never had a game where spawn haven't delivered the payload ic where it needs to be.
Bikers, on the other hand, are superior at being more tactically forgiving, they dont hit as hard but have lots of saves, more movement, and firepower. They are excellent flankers and transport-removal. That being said, they aren't scary at all in melee. They're just decently tough. Whereas the spawn(With a buff or two) are point-for-point three times as tough and much much more deadly combatants(s5 and an average of 5.5 attacks on the charge is fucking goofy).

They seem nearly equal, they just do different jobs. The bikers do better at cracking things like terminators and heavy transports. Spawn rip apart infantry like gorillas rip apart puppies, and they shred rhinos/chimeras like nobodies business. They just take a lot more planning and care to use.


----------



## venomlust

Awesome, thanks a lot guys. I get it now. :so_happy:


----------



## Magpie_Oz

I guess every one's "metagame" (I hate that term) is different but everytime I have faced Spawn they have been wiped out in pretty short order.


----------



## venomlust

They're also way too expensive, but what else is new? If I win some on ebay I'll try them out, otherwise I'll be using my bikers.


----------



## Nordicus

Interesting answers - Perhaps one should try them out after all.


----------



## Iron_Freak220

I dont believe the Iron Arm (or whichever one gives Feel No Pain) psychic power affects the squad. I think it only affects the Sorceror. So the spawn are still left without that save, although Shrouding would still work.

I've never been a fan of spawn though. The lack of a save is just too debilitating to me. A few luck bolter shots can kill a spawn. That's not a worthwhile investment in my eyes. 

Go for bikes. They don't have to be all that offensively scary because that's what your lord is there for.


----------



## MidnightSun

Iron Arm only affects the Sorceror, but Endurance gives the unit Feel No Pain and It Will Not Die. I'd personally go Spawn, purely because I like the idea of them as an attack unit more.

Midnight


----------



## Supersonic Banana

Personally I'm just happy that spawn are even considered at the list building stage now as before the new codex they were my book stops 
But the focus fire is an issue for me as i have been caught out by a one at the wrong time and cant roll power armour saves anyway so the bikers main bonus is kind of moot for me 

Bikers are hardly slouches in melee though with the mark of khorne and icon of wrath but it can be hilarious when khorne spawn roll a 6 for their attacks :laugh:


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

Why is it that people keep discrediting spawns for not having a save? They have a 1 in 3 chance of a 4+ save in CC. And if we are talking about shooting, why is it your 12" moving, terrain ignoring spawns with fleet don't have a cover save? Are you playing on bare tables or are you just stupid? Seriously though, if all you need is an escort for your juggerlord spawn really are the way to go. They are cheap, fast and often much more survivable than bikers.

Of course, if you want some more utillity, extra tank hunting capabilities or really like the extra shooting bikers are very good. But if all you need is a delivery system spawns are cheaper and tougher. Also spawn hit like a tonne of bricks on the charge. There are few things more satisfying than ramming a juggerlord with spawns into a bunch of terminators. Your opponent eagerly feeds the champ to the lord only to lose half his squad to those stupid looking bulletsponges.


----------



## Nordicus

Out of curiousity, how many spawns would you recommend as a standard delivery system?


----------



## neferhet

Standard? 3.
Expecting heavy shooting? 5
Mark of Nurgle almost mandatory for Nurgle or unmarked Sorc/Lord.


----------



## venomlust

This thread is awesome, I feel like so many bases have been covered.

Well, I'm gonna give bikers a shot today, as I don't have any spawn yet. It's also my first objective-based game and first time using the Juggylord as my HQ. I cannot WAIT to splatter some fools.


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

Nordicus said:


> Out of curiousity, how many spawns would you recommend as a standard delivery system?


4. 3 if you're really pushed for points, but considering how cool spawns are 5 is never a waste to bring IMO.

4 do however seem to be the sweet spot for delivering lords.


----------



## venomlust

Played against an Iyanden army today, using 5 khorne marked bikers to deliver my juggylord. The bikers unfortunately got wiped in combat and missed all their melta shots/combat attacks, but the lord did some splattering and survived quite nicely until a Wraithknight stomped him out. I didn't do such a great job with positioning my minis, so next time I might do even better!


----------



## Mossy Toes

Wraithknights are troublesome unless you, say, charge a badly injured one with a Daemon Prince with the Black Mace and kill it before it gets the chance to splatter you back, or something. Alas, my kingdom for Eternal Warrior. (Black Legion don't count)


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

Well, if those stupid wraith constructs are a big problem just ally in some daemonettes/seekers and watch them die horribly to a bunch of cheap, strenght 3 models.
But if you have to rely solely on your CSM those bastards can get quite troublesome. Havocs and obliterators should be your main men for this sort of thing.


----------



## venomlust

I had 3 obliterators which didn't survive past turn 3, as he focused on them with his plethora of guns. Didn't roll too well with my first burst of lascannon shots, unfortunately.

I had plenty of useless wargear, as well. MoK on my cultist objective holders, MoK + IoW + ccw on a space marine squad that died by the end of shooting of turn 1 , and so on. My terminator squad rolled deep strike in such a way that my opponent placed them in the far corner of my deployment zone, making them practically useless. 

I've eliminated some of the stuff that didn't really seem to matter during the game, enough points to add 2 more nurgle marked obliterators. 2 more heavy shots a turn sounds nice. I could add a lascannon predator instead, but I imagine the obliterators are more survivable. Havocs are an option but I dunno yet. I'll think about it.


----------



## madcore

I played a game tonight with the jugger lord with the axe of blind fury, i had 4 spawn with mark of khorne and one black legion lvl3 sorcerer on bike to boost the squad...

I took telepathy and got invisibility, puppet master and hallucination...i also had the last memory of the yuranthos power....which i like a lot.

That whole unit killed, 6 necron wraiths, a whole lot of scarabs, three canoptek spiders (the ones that creates more scarabs), and on top of that, it killed a lot of immortals, the Necron lord and another character..can't remember...

Let's just say that it killed a lot of models.....that being said, invisibility goes a long shot in protecting spawns....

I played that as a test tonight and god it was very conclusive.....spawns all the way


----------



## LukeValantine

My lords escort is 25 cultists, but that's just because I'm weird (Still gets him where I need him to go most of the time, mostly because I deploy the unit far up and keep running them.)


----------



## venomlust

Not a bad idea, Luke. I'll have to try that some time.

Tried the biker escort once and it worked fine, gonna try it again this week hopefully a couple of times.

I decided to use juggernauts as my khornate spawn. Dunno why it took me so long to come up with that idea. Not exactly the random tentacle-armed spawn one might think of, but I find them waaay cooler! Also turned out to be a better deal in terms of dollars.


----------



## venomlust

To add another update to this subject:

I've been using my bikes steadily as my Juggylord's escort. Tactically, I've been making blunder after blunder, and they end up dying before getting to use their special weapons. Chalk it up to being a new player and not thinking things through before deploying/moving. 

However, in every situation they've (Khorne marked) survived long enough to deliver the lord to his targets.

Yesterday I played an Ultramarines army loaded with lascannons and tactical squads split into combat squads. Only 2 bikers out of 6 survived long enough to escort the lord into combat, but once he made it he proceeded to wipe out unit after unit, including the enemy warlord (chapter master). Eventually, the bikers died from an insane amount of bolter fire and Look Out Sir! rolls, and the Juggylord himself succumbed when attempted to charge the final squad of marines holding the objective, supported by like... 5 remaining twin-linked lascannons on the table.

I'll have some spawn soon enough, planning to run a group of 4 with the juggylord. We'll see how they do. I'd love to mark them with Nurgle, but with a Khorne marked AoBF lord, that won't be possible due to conflicting marks. I guess I'll just have to rely on T5 and a 12 wound pool to get him there. Plus 4 for the lord.


----------



## venomlust

A Tau gunline was the first situation that prevented me from escorting the lord to combat. The bikers all died to shooting before the lord got to charge a squad of kroot. He rolled a 1 on the charge with his axe, and failed the save. Then after wiping them out, he died to shooting the next turn.

I finally stopped being lazy and made a lord on a bike with the AoBF. With the ability to turbo-boost, I'm really excited to see just how fast I can get into combat and how many bikers can survive to get there with him. I'll be bringing 7 of them with the lord. Overkill?


----------



## neferhet

venomlust said:


> Overkill?


Against tau, it is not! When he understands how fast you are with that unit he will shoot at it even with crossbows and waterguns.


----------



## venomlust

Haha, not the water guns!

Giving the biker champ a LC to slay their sergeant and bringing 2 flamers to soften up the horde before I charge it. I figure even against Space Marines I might take 1 or 2 out with the flamers. Better than nothing.


----------



## Sephyr

I prefer bikes because they can carry meltas, plasma or flamers. It's great to be able to open the transports with the unit that is going to charge so you can direct your heavy firepower to other units that wil lthreaten your Lord the next turn. Or do a plasma-storm on a big Tyranid beast or eldar robot before the charge to sway the combat your way. 

That said, Spawn are great.They can use terrain much better and with some support are ridiculously durable. My only issue with them is their cash cost. Finding bikes to convert on eBay is cheap and easy. Spawn? Not so much.


----------



## venomlust

Spawn all the WAY man! I've used the Juggerlord with 5 spawn in a couple of games now, and I'm really liking them a lot. Both as an escort for the lord and as a close combat unit. 

Had them under the effects of Invisible from Be'lakor for the entirety of the game. That helped a lot. They proceeded to butcher many, many Space Marines. The Juggerlord took the skull of a Chapter Master today. In the past the two have simultaneously killed each other in at least 2 games, but Invisibility really put his unit over the top.

So for the purposes of absorbing wounds and getting the lord into combat safely, the spawn have won hands down. They also kick ass in combat, especially when you roll a 5 or 6 for their attacks and get poisoned on the spawn table.

The bikers have always been more useful to me as a shooting unit than one geared for close combat. The special weapons are nice, but getting a big biker squad in rapid fire range with bolters can be awesome too.


----------



## LukeValantine

The spawn choice is now a bit better off these days against SM's as grav guns are useless against the unit.


----------



## venomlust

I don't know much about SM gear. What about grav guns makes them useless against Spawn?


----------



## DarkDisciple_Nahum

I've never run a Juggerlord but I do love running chaos spawn and bikers both. As a daemon player as well I am quite partial to the spawn and love the fact that alot of people write them off as nothing at first because so few people run them (because of how terrible they were in the last codex and the models are expensive). I may have to strip one of my bloodcrushers of thier rider and throw a crazy zerker on it! Thanks all.


----------



## LukeValantine

Grav guns wound against your armor save.


----------



## venomlust

Oh snap! Too bad none of the Space Marine players in my store are using them yet. Mostly bolters and lascannons, with the very odd plasma gun/cannon and assault cannons/multimeltas on dreadnoughts. I bet most built their armies before the new C:SM release.

No matter. With invisibility and 15 wounds, I haven't lost more than 1 spawn moving across the table to engage in combat so far. My buddy was pissed as his entire Death Company went down to the AoBF, then his Reclusiam, then his Captain, then his Chapter Master. All without inflicting a single wound. Can't hit what you can't see, suckas! All hail Be'lakor!

Hold onto your skulls, loyalist scum!


----------



## Mossy Toes

Juggernauts as Spawn?

That's... that's brilliant. I'm hyperventilating here. Damn it. Damn it. Now I have to buy 2 boxes of Bloodcrushers. Damn you. This is all your fault. Daaamn yoouuuuuuu! The Wild Hunt Rides! (Plus that whole skull chariot axe is still awesome)


----------



## venomlust

Bloooooooooooooooood!!!


----------



## DarkDisciple_Nahum

There is nothing about this that I don't like! You do the Blood god proud! Servents of the corpse god will flood the warp with their weak souls!


----------



## venomlust

DarkDisciple_Nahum said:


> There is nothing about this that I don't like! You do the Blood god proud! Servents of the corpse god will flood the warp with their weak souls!


Thank you thank you. The skulls just keep a-pilin' up. 

Moving the Spawn through cover is freaking awesome, in case I neglected to mention that. Only 1 roll to make for the Juggerlord, who thankfully hasn't failed a dangerous terrain test yet. 2 Maulerfiends in the mix and there's lots of cover-ignoring scariness coming their way.


----------



## venomlust

Another game using Spawn as the escort, another victory!

This time, I didn't have Be'lakor in my army, but I did keep the Spawn buffed with the Grimoire the entire game for 3+ invuln.

Although I didn't have him in my army, my opponent DID use Be'lakor. Thought he could take on the Juggerlord...

*NOPE.* 

The Juggerlord promptly sent Be'lakor back to the warp for a time-out and murdered 2 Aspiring Champions, only suffering 2 wounds in his duel with Be'lakor. If we didn't call the game, he would have killed Typhus, too. Such a freakin' beast, I love when he gets to chain-rape stuff.

This was the list I ran:

HQ:

Warlord: Chaos Lord: Mark of Khorne, Axe of Blind Fury, Sigil of Corruption, Juggernaut, Melta Bombs
Herald of Tzeentch: Grimoire: Manning Quad Gun

TROOPS:

Cultists x20
Cultists x20
Chaos Space Marines x5: Plasma Gun, Combi-Bolter on Champ, Rhino
Pink Horrors x20: Joined by Herald

ELITES:

Terminators x3: Combi-Melta x3
Noise Marines x10: Icon of Excess, 2x Blastmaster, 8x Sonic Blaster, Rhino

FAST ATTACK:
Heldrake x2
Spawn x5: Joined by Juggerlord

HEAVY SUPPORT:
Soulgrinder: Daemon of Nurgle, Phlegm Bombardment

FORTIFICATION:

Aegis Defense Line: Quad Gun


From memory, my friend's army was as follows:

HQ:

Warlord: Be'lakor
Typhus

TROOPS:

Cultists x20: Plague Zombies
Chaos Space Marines: Missile Launcher, Plasma Gun, Mark of Nurgle
Plague Marines x10: 2x Plasma Gun: Joined by Typhus
Plague Marines x10: 2x Plasma Gun

ELITES:

Chaos Contemptor Dreadnought: Dedication to Nurgle, Heavy Conversion Beamer, Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon, Plasma Blaster

FAST ATTACK:

Heldrake

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Havocs: Missile Launcher x4, Plasma Pistol on Champ: Manning Quad Gun
Forgefiend: Hades Autocannons, Ectoplasma Cannon

FORTIFICATIONS:

Aegis Defense Line: Quad Gun


----------



## venomlust

Oops, double post.


----------



## Gret79

Lol - Bel'akor didn't kill the juggerlord?

Your opponent was doing it wrong...

FMC's have smash - so round here they do that and it means the T5 Juggerlord is killed in one punch before he swings.

Smash from Bel'akor is 3 attacks (if he didn't charge) that hit on a 3+. So you hit with two (with average rolling) and then hurt on a 2+ so both hurt.
The juggerlord will have a 4++ and will save one and get hit by one. Then he's dead as it's strength 10.
Of course, if your opponent doesn't smash then you get to beat him into the floor 

As an escort - I like bikes. Specifically with melta's. I got to pop a landraider and all kill the transported terminators in 1 turn.



Rumble said:


> First we crack the shell, then we crack the nuts inside


----------



## venomlust

Hey, I'm not complaining. He had never used a Daemon Prince or MC before, so I don't think he was thinking about the smash attacks. I didn't feel the need to point it out, necessarily. :angel:

It's been a while since I've tried running the Bikerlord, maybe the next time I try a game I'll run him with a bike escort.

Ooooor maybe I'll take a Juggerlord + Escort, then a Nurgle Bikerlord with a Burning Brand and a biker squad with special weapons. But then I couldn't use my ultra cheesy 2 Heldrake combo!


----------



## Gret79

venomlust said:


> Hey, I'm not complaining. He had never used a Daemon Prince or MC before, so I don't think he was thinking about the smash attacks. I didn't feel the need to point it out, necessarily. :angel:
> 
> It's been a while since I've tried running the Bikerlord, maybe the next time I try a game I'll run him with a bike escort.
> 
> Ooooor maybe I'll take a Juggerlord + Escort, then a Nurgle Bikerlord with a Burning Brand and a biker squad with special weapons. But then I couldn't use my ultra cheesy 2 Heldrake combo!


lol, if you're after cheese, go black legion allies - that'd open an extra heldrake (fast attack) slot...


----------



## venomlust

Gret79 said:


> lol, if you're after cheese, go black legion allies - that'd open an extra heldrake (fast attack) slot...


Haha, that's way overkill. I think 2 drakes is plenty. Taking 3 would be way over the top. I like my Spawn, too.


----------



## Gret79

I meant two heldrakes, the bikes and the spawn


----------



## venomlust

*twitch*

Since you can double force org at 2,000, you could take 6 of them in big games, right?

uke:


----------



## DeathKlokk

Or 8 using BL allies.


----------



## venomlust

Man, there would barely be room for other minis on the table with 8 drakes flying around.


----------



## Jonny B

I just wish I had the cash for 8 drakes and if I did then would be praying the misses woukd let me buy 8 drakes!


----------



## venomlust

Jonny B said:


> I just wish I had the cash for 8 drakes and if I did then would be praying the misses woukd let me buy 8 drakes!


"Why, yes, dear. That's a brilliant way to spend $592 plus tax! Now I know why I married you."


----------



## Jonny B

venomlust said:


> "Why, yes, dear. That's a brilliant way to spend $592 plus tax! Now I know why I married you."


Excellent


----------



## venomlust

For a second, I thought the Heldrake "Fear Squadron" (a pack of 3 drakes) would be cheaper, but then learned that those bundles exist to save us from the tedium of clicking the drop-down quantity on the Heldrake page. I appreciate a company that goes out of its way for me like that.


----------



## iamtheeviltwin

Usually the only bundles that actually save money are their holiday bundles and the new army boxes (starting with space marines and on). The older army boxes might save a bit, but not much.


----------



## venomlust

I wish they'd sell more stuff that way, to be honest. I'd probably buy directly from GW more often if there was some break on stuff that I wanted.


----------



## iamtheeviltwin

I agree, the other thing I really liked about the space marine box was that it was a playable army straight out of the box and it netted you about 20-25% savings. If I hadn't already had a decent space marine collection (and a very particular way I like to play them) it would have been a no brainer (and I was still tempted).

I don't know about how playable the Dark Elf box was, but the nid box "can" work as a starter army (only 1 HQ and no synapse)...but it seems to be a step back towards the older army boxes where you had to buy a separate HQ to make them work.


----------



## venomlust

Damn, it looks like I totally screwed up.

Spawn are not Daemons. They don't have a 5++. They aren't eligible targets for the Grimoire, so I totally cheesed my friend by mistake. Bah, such a n00b sometimes...


----------



## LukeValantine

Following your out of the box thinking about spawn I also recently converted up some custom spawn to escort my lord in "jolly good cooperation"!


----------



## venomlust

Damn, those are awesome!


----------



## koolkruse

Quick note to the mentions of nurgle bikers and spawn. It's a juggerlord. He's khorny. No nurgle here, saddly.

As to my input, bikes everyday. Bikes have the mobility technique described above, you can get actual weapons on them, and random firepower won't completely erase your spawn. What you get is firepower ahead of your charge, you still have two attacks a model, 3 on charge, 4 with khorne along with a re roll charge range banner (you never know) a static cover save for when ap 3/2 starts shooting at you, options for plasma and melta so you can thin a 2+squad down before going in a bit. You also have a character that can take the challenge that WILL be issued, so you have the choice depending on the unit.


----------



## venomlust

koolkruse said:


> Quick note to the mentions of nurgle bikers and spawn. It's a juggerlord. He's khorny. No nurgle here, saddly.
> 
> As to my input, bikes everyday. Bikes have the mobility technique described above, you can get actual weapons on them, and random firepower won't completely erase your spawn. What you get is firepower ahead of your charge, you still have two attacks a model, 3 on charge, 4 with khorne along with a re roll charge range banner (you never know) a static cover save for when ap 3/2 starts shooting at you, options for plasma and melta so you can thin a 2+squad down before going in a bit. You also have a character that can take the challenge that WILL be issued, so you have the choice depending on the unit.


Yeah that's a really good summary of the strengths of the bikers. I wish I had time to play these days, I'd love to use my bikers again once in a while.


----------



## LukeValantine

I always thought that bikes were a liability as they constantly get a 5+ cover save meaning they have a different cover save from the lord, hence your opponent can focus fire on him.


----------



## Gret79

you can still look out sir the hits the lord takes


----------



## Rogue Daemon

Personally bikes never did it for me. But a horde of mutant chaos beasts being herded by a Khorne lord riding a daemon bull....yeah, that's more up my alley


----------



## Gret79

I run my juggerlord with 4 bikes.
There's a melta gun in there who has so far, never failed to kill in one shot any vehicle he's shot at, The champion takes challenges on the lords behalf (he has no cc weapons, he's just there to administer surgical headbutts).
The Juggerlord goes against squads - his record is an entire tactical squad in one turn.

Its fun, I run it with 15 zerkers led by kharn with a maulerfiend and allied demons with a bloodthirster and a demon prince. Then I just charge blindly at the enemy and see whats left standing at the end of the game. It makes for a fun game


----------



## venomlust

Hell yes! Classic Khorne, right there. :good:


----------



## Gret79

If Kharn could manage not to kill two of my own zerkers every turn of combat, I'd be unstoppable! yes, he rolls 1's, then he re-rolls them for good measure. He really doesn't like being followed :ireful2:


----------



## venomlust

**Casts a necromantic spell of resurrection on this thread**

So with the new edition's release I think there is more to say on this subject.

Two important rules changes effect this discussion:

1.) Focus Fire is no longer a thing in the game.

2.) Wounds from in/outside a challenge spill over.

I will have to test this stuff out in terms of all the new rules/changes working in tandem, but based on these two changes I'd have to say my favor may shift to bikes. 

The loss of Focus Fire means a Juggerlord joined to a unit of bikes can no longer be singled out for his lack of a jink save. I think with some clever movement and turbo-boosting, the entire unit as a long chain could essentially guarantee getting into combat on turn 2 no matter what the deployment type is. Spawn can't necessarily pull that off.

The wounds spilling out thing is a huge buff to the aspiring champion of a biker squad. If up against a unit of MEQ, the Juggerlord will chew through the sergeant and into the rest of the chumps. Now the champ can have a go with some upgrades. Lightning claw to rip up some chumps of his own, or a protected power fist for some unmitigated crushing. I love power fists, but it had never been worth using them if the champ was just going to get destroyed in a challenge before getting to use it. With 5 attacks on the charge at strength 9 (with Icon of Wrath), he will probably kill something.

I think the greater attacks/+1 strength in combats lasting longer than 1 turn and 2 extra wounds might just be worth trading for a tough unit of Khornate bikers ready to butcher some meat. More expensive, but that champ is finally going to be able to put in some work.


----------



## venomlust

An additional change to take into consideration is the Jink change. No longer will they get a cover save without being forced to snap shot.

That being said, they don't need to do that much shooting if they're a combat bike squad and simply want to get into close quarters ASAP.


----------



## GuiltySparc

raising this thread from the dead, just wanted to say that the idea of using jugger models as spawn is absolutely glorious. I really wanted to take spawn as my juggerlord escort but the idea i spending $150 was making me sad indeed. Plus i think the look on the table top of a juggerlord with a bunch of other juggernaughts is pretty awesome.


----------



## venomlust

It is my favorite unit, by far. I still haven't gotten around to painting them, because I suck, but it's very gratifying.

My only complaint is that they're too big for their bases. It makes them slightly unbalanced, and difficult to get into true base-to-base contact. I've seen other people employ an idea I only mulled around with very successfully: using berzerkers on juggernauts as MoK bikers, and the cavalry base does a much better job of supporting the juggernaut model. Maybe in a tournament setting people would object to the base differing from the GW spawn model, but in friendly games I think it would work out for the best.


----------



## Dallas_Drake

I love MoN Spawn, I run 2x5 in all lists. Theyre Beasts so they're fast & have move through cover, you can get them a 5+ by running them straight through cover. T6 & W3 makes them tough enough & with the possibility of 8 poison attacks each they're not too shabby in assault either.


----------



## Mossy Toes

Dallas_Drake said:


> I love MoN Spawn, I run 2x5 in all lists. Theyre Beasts so they're fast & have move through cover, you can get them a 5+ by running them straight through cover. T6 & W3 makes them tough enough & with the possibility of 8 poison attacks each they're not too shabby in assault either.


True, but a MoK Juggerlord (as per the main debate) can't join MoN spawn, unfortunately.


As for my own musing on the question: what with me basically always fielding Be'lakor, I always have access to Shrouding, so the ability of bikes to jink for a 2+ cover save is now _fantastic_.


----------



## Kreuger

Mossy Toes said:


> ...fielding Be'lakor, I always have access to Shrouding, so the ability of bikes to jink for a 2+ cover save is now _fantastic_.


That sounds borderline abusive. 

I like it.


----------



## Mossy Toes

Kreuger said:


> That sounds borderline abusive.
> 
> I like it.


Far more so on Screamers, who reroll 1s on saving throws thanks to Daemon of Tzeentch, and as jetbikes... can jink handily*. 2+ rerollable cover, and basically an Armorbane retinue to accompany Be'lakor's own not-insignificant Armorbane capabilities: a solid anti-tank core to be fleshed out by Outflanking Daemonettes and Seekers led by Heralds of Slaanesh with Beguilement, Steeds, and Greater Etherblades. Who Be'lakor uses his Invisibility on once they come in.

Absothronedamnedlutely shred. Hence the tactica in my sig.


* as, of course, can Fateweaver, Lords of Change, Burning Chariots, & DPs of Tzeentch (that last losing nearly all it's shooting abilities, though)... to the same effect.


----------



## venomlust

Mossy Toes said:


> Far more so on Screamers, who reroll 1s on saving throws thanks to Daemon of Tzeentch, and as jetbikes... can jink handily*. 2+ rerollable cover, and basically an Armorbane retinue to accompany Be'lakor's own not-insignificant Armorbane capabilities: a solid anti-tank core to be fleshed out by Outflanking Daemonettes and Seekers led by Heralds of Slaanesh with Beguilement, Steeds, and Greater Etherblades. Who Be'lakor uses his Invisibility on once they come in.
> 
> Absothronedamnedlutely shred. Hence the tactica in my sig.
> 
> 
> * as, of course, can Fateweaver, Lords of Change, Burning Chariots, & DPs of Tzeentch (that last losing nearly all it's shooting abilities, though)... to the same effect.


If only the minions of Khorne were capable of such butchery. I really do want to add some Flesh Hounds to the mix in my army, but it's so damn expensive to build a max unit of 'em.

I wish there was a less expensive/more reliable way of getting Shrouded than Be'lakor. Although, considering he's guaranteed the power and it spreads out to multiple units, it just might be cost effective if used that way.


----------



## Mossy Toes

venomlust said:


> If only the minions of Khorne were capable of such butchery. I really do want to add some Flesh Hounds to the mix in my army, but it's so damn expensive to build a max unit of 'em.


You may need to in any case: I'm reeling from shellshock after playing against a Crons list with only one squad of 6 Wraiths, who tied up Be'lakor the whole game, soaked up a charging block of Seekers, and whittled those Seekers down to just the Herald by the time they were finally finished off by my 600-odd points of fighters... rending on 6s doesn't do enough against 3++ T5; A massive block of Flesh Hounds with S5 furious charge and a Juggerherald's Hatred is going to be a much more reliable way of dealing with the Wraithspam that I predict is going to sweep the meta, soon. And they're going to have to assault alongside Fiends, so that those whip coils don't make the Wraiths strike first...

Dark Gods, those Crons are tough: nearly everything has a 4+ rerolling 1s FNP-that-ignores-ID. A handful of Immortals beat down a handful of Daemonettes and a killy Beguilement SlaHerald in combat because I simply couldn't put any of them down.



venomlust said:


> I wish there was a less expensive/more reliable way of getting Shrouded than Be'lakor. Although, considering he's guaranteed the power and it spreads out to multiple units, it just might be cost effective if used that way.


A bunch of ML2 SlaaHeralds are enough to statistically average usually end up with it, or something... of course, Slaaneshi units generally can't jink. Several ML3 DPs, perhaps... but those guys would each end up about as much as Be'lakor, if you factor in the Black Mace/2 Greater Rewards.


...this is all rather far afield from Juggerlords, though. Juggerlords... will still have trouble against Wraiths, but should average killing about one per turn?


----------



## venomlust

Well, for the moment Juggerlords are the only answer I have in my minis collection, other than the unfortunate army you threw at them. It's that fucking 3++, man.

Plus, other than the cost, I think Flesh Hounds are a bit dated -- even though they're (relatively recent) finecast models. WFB war hounds or whatever are way too fugly. There's a 3rd party manufacturer who makes an amazing alternative, but those are like 80 bucks for 15, I think, so that's not happening either. Too bad.


----------



## Kreuger

Which 3rd party manufacturer are you talking about? I ask because I have yet to see a flesh hound I really like. I'd like to see good ones even if I can't afford them. 

Back in the proverbial day I used these guys from Scotia Grendel's Leviathan system.

Edit:
I found the Puppetswar barghest fiends. Even with a more favorable exchange rate for the dollar, these are still painfully expensive.


----------



## venomlust

Kreuger said:


> Edit:
> I found the Puppetswar barghest fiends. Even with a more favorable exchange rate for the dollar, these are still painfully expensive.


Yup, that's them, Kreuger. Expensive but quite awesome.


----------



## GuiltySparc

i played on a game on saturday where i tried out using raptors and my juggerlord's escort. It was a 1000pt game against necrons where 6 raptors happened to fit in just right. They actually worked surprisingly well. 

I was thinking that the HoW attacks would add a nice dimension giving the group 5 attacks (1 base, +1 for two weapons, +2 for marked charge, +1 HoW) equaling a pretty gnarly 30 attacks on top of the juggerlord. As it worked out, you can forget the HoW at least for the first combat because you're going to be jumping the whole way there. Once inside the lines however i was able to assault a second squad using the jump packs which was nice. The juggerlord + 6 raptors killed a unit of 7 immortals and a unit of 10 warriors + voidreaper overlord.


----------



## Mossy Toes

Well... to be fair, bikes always have HoW. Sure, you have a few less members in the squad, but...


----------



## GuiltySparc

Ah, good point. I happened to have the raptors so I was trying them out. I'll proxy dome bikes next time to see how they do.


----------



## venomlust

Glad the Raptors worked out, sounds like a satisfying game!


----------



## venomlust

Obviously, as Khorne Daemonkin has been released, Flesh Hounds are a new option to consider for the ol' Juggerlord. Possibly the best of the 3 due to the ability to scout and a 5+ invuln with 2 wounds each. Have yet to try it out, though.


----------



## neferhet

venomlust said:


> Obviously, as Khorne Daemonkin has been released, Flesh Hounds are a new option to consider for the ol' Juggerlord. Possibly the best of the 3 due to the ability to scout and a 5+ invuln with 2 wounds each. Have yet to try it out, though.


Also, never forget that the gorepack gives a couple of nice rules to bikers and hounds (rending and HoW)...Juggerlord scouting with 15 hounds...is gross. Follow him with 2 units of meltagun carrying bikers... and its scary


----------



## venomlust

neferhet said:


> Also, never forget that the gorepack gives a couple of nice rules to bikers and hounds (rending and HoW)...Juggerlord scouting with 15 hounds...is gross. Follow him with 2 units of meltagun carrying bikers... and its scary


Hell yeah. For a Daemonkin Juggerlord tough enemies with 2+ saves are going to be a bit of a problem. Can only wound Wraithknights on 6's on the charge with the Axe of Khorne or the hounds. More of a unit to try and tarpit with lone hounds, I'd say. 

In so many situations it seems better to take the CSM AoBF Juggerlord and since we'll be taking our hounds in Gorepacks anyway, we're only paying a 50pt cultist tax to make the whole thing happen.


----------



## neferhet

venomlust said:


> Hell yeah. For a Daemonkin Juggerlord tough enemies with 2+ saves are going to be a bit of a problem. Can only wound Wraithknights on 6's on the charge with the Axe of Khorne or the hounds. More of a unit to try and tarpit with lone hounds, I'd say.
> 
> In so many situations it seems better to take the CSM AoBF Juggerlord and since we'll be taking our hounds in Gorepacks anyway, we're only paying a 50pt cultist tax to make the whole thing happen.


Well, a daemonkin juggerlord still can have some AP2 weapons altough unwieldly. i agree, just 50 pts and we are ok.

better still, can't we just use the gorepack as an allied formation in a regular csm army?

juggerlord
5 spawns
10 cultists
10 cultists

gorepack


----------



## venomlust

neferhet said:


> Well, a daemonkin juggerlord still can have some AP2 weapons altough unwieldly. i agree, just 50 pts and we are ok.
> 
> better still, can't we just use the gorepack as an allied formation in a regular csm army?
> 
> juggerlord
> 5 spawns
> 10 cultists
> 10 cultists
> 
> gorepack


Yeah we can, that would be just fine.

Against some things the unwieldy will be fine, but against the fucking S10 T8 I5 bastard that is a Wraithknight, I'm not even going to bother throwing Juggerlords at it. That is the duty of the head-chopping Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage. Maybe still tie up the knight first with hounds, though.

Anyway, in some cases I think I'd rather have more units from Daemonkin, so as to rack up more blood tithe points when they inevitably die.


----------



## neferhet

venomlust said:


> Maybe still tie up the knight first with hounds, though.


maybe thats just enough. it will take the beasty quite long to get rid of 15 hounds.
such gigantic critters are easily countered with a fast scouting fearless unit. hounds come to mind :biggrin:


----------



## venomlust

neferhet said:


> maybe thats just enough. it will take the beasty quite long to get rid of 15 hounds.
> such gigantic critters are easily countered with a fast scouting fearless unit. hounds come to mind :biggrin:


And fifteen of them would at least have a shot at wounding it on the turn they charge. Lube it up with some blood to prep it for the colossal D it will be receiving.


----------



## neferhet

venomlust said:


> Lube it up with some blood to prep it for the colossal D it will be receiving.


i can see this working for slaanesh too.


----------



## Mossy Toes

neferhet said:


> i can see this working for slaanesh too.


Even better, with Rending. A large squad of Seekers or Daemonettes on the charge will rend a Wraithknight to bits, often killing it in that first phase. Just... assuming that Eldar shooting hasn't splattered too many of your T3 1W models, first.


----------



## neferhet

Mossy Toes said:


> Even better, with Rending. A large squad of Seekers or Daemonettes on the charge will rend a Wraithknight to bits, often killing it in that first phase. Just... assuming that Eldar shooting hasn't splattered too many of your T3 1W models, first.


Agreed, altough i was referring to the "lubing before a big D comes in" part.



venomlust said:


> Lube it up with some blood to prep it for the colossal D it will be receiving


Regarding eldar shooting, i guess that, unless serpentspamming, 30-40 T3 5++ models fast as seekers have a reliable chance of being in melee with at least half of their number by turn 2


----------

