# Eldar pantheon



## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

Okay, as far as I know, it is pretty common knowledge that the Eldar, along with the Orks, were created by the Old Ones to defeat the Necrons.

The Orks were a failed experiment, as they were completely uncontrolable and didn't realy stop the Necrons.

There Eldar, however, did. They defeated the Necrons and conquered the galaxy, creating the most powerful empire in known history.

If this is all correct, than I have a few questions? What the hell are the Eldar Gods? Asuryan, Isha, Khaine, etc, are all parts of the eldar's own creation story - did they not know they were made by the Old Ones? 

If the Eldar Gods are made from the minds of the Eldar, aren't they all essentially deamons? Wouldn't they live in the Warp? 

And finally, if that is true, than isn't Khaine the exact same thing as Khorne? Are they aspects of one another, or are the same being just worshiped by different races in different ways?

I read the Edlar Codex and got no answers. Anyone who could lend some understanding would be greatly appreciated.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

From a practical standpoint, the eldar being created by the old ones to do battle with the necrons was put into canon only after the necrons were created. So it is no wonder that their is a conflict there. If you need to reconcile the old canon with new canon then try this...

The Old Ones were master's of the Warp. Perhaps they created the eldar by creating their gods and instructing them to forge a race.


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

The orks themselves aren't a failed experiment as such.
Their controlling influence (aka "the brain boys" ) went extinct, leaving the relatively stupid boys to propagate uncontrolled. 

The Eldar gods are there because every (human) culture has a creation myth and in most cases, have parallels in them as well (the 'vampire' is thoroughly enmeshed into the human mythic culture, for example. No matter where you go, most cultures have an myth analogue of it).

The Eldar pantheon was, however, appropriated from several sources (Norse among them) - like pretty much the rest of the 40k milieu


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## robinson (May 15, 2008)

A interesting topic indeed and call if ignorant if need be but I had never thought about this but why would the old ones need to instruct other's to forge a new race if they were masters of the warp? wouldn't it be a small task for them?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Prince Endymion said:


> The Orks were a failed experiment, as they were completely uncontrolable and didn't realy stop the Necrons.


Well we don't know what really happened during the War in Heaven only its conclusion. The Orks were able to go uncontrollable because the Old Ones/Brain Boyz were killed, thus leaving no one to control/guide/use the Orks.



Prince Endymion said:


> There Eldar, however, did. They defeated the Necrons and conquered the galaxy, creating the most powerful empire in known history.


Well its the Enslaver Plague that really forced the Necrons into Hibernation, the Eldar probably would have lost against the C'tan/Necrons. 



Prince Endymion said:


> If this is all correct, than I have a few questions? What the hell are the Eldar Gods? Asuryan, Isha, Khaine, etc, are all parts of the eldar's own creation story - did they not know they were made by the Old Ones?
> 
> If the Eldar Gods are made from the minds of the Eldar, aren't they all essentially deamons? Wouldn't they live in the Warp?


There are many theories about the true nature of the Eldar Gods. Some I like were discussed over on the BL forums. Examples include Cegorach literally _is_ the Webway, and Vaul _is_ actually the Emperor.

The Eldar Tales about their gods are Myths. To me Myths are generally stories which are not literally true but which portray some moral or meaning. The Tales about the Eldar gods therefore in my mind are not literally true but portray the Eldar Gods in a way which isn't perfectly literally true.

Other theories include the Eldar Gods themselves being 'ascended' Old Ones. Or that they are psychic manifestations of the Eldar Psyche, (which was intended to occur by the Old Ones for they (the Psychic Manifestations) would be useful and powerful weapons to use against the C'tan/Necrons) and following the War in Heaven and Defeat of the Old Ones the Eldar began worshipping their powerful Psychic creations as gods. 



Prince Endymion said:


> And finally, if that is true, than isn't Khaine the exact same thing as Khorne? Are they aspects of one another, or are the same being just worshiped by different races in different ways?


This idea is explored in Warhammer Fantasy. The Dark Elves worship Khaine as the God of Murder (Whilst the High Elves Worship him as the God of War) - Some Old World Scholars have theorised that Khaine is merely an aspect of Khorne or simply Khorne himself - All Races and Classes of Elves hotly dispute this however, seeing Khorne as an uncivilised Brute. 

Back to 40k; I would argue that the evidence is very one-sided. The Myths describe Khaine as making war on the Eldar and enslaving Isha and Kurnous, and defeating the Night Bringer during the War in Heaven. They also describe him battling Slaanesh and eventually losing and then Khorne intervenes and battles Slaanesh over Khaine. 

The Avatars of Khaine are attuned to the Eldar Psyche. They personify the Eldar's Hatred and War-lust, and although they are Daemons they still fight for the Eldar in a round-about-way.

I myself would say that are not the same, and are very different.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

I think the problem with reconciling the myth vs the actual creation of the Eldar is what Gabrial said. GW only put in the random crap about the Old Ones when they wrote the Necron Codex (and is a direct rip-off of Starcraft, but nevermind).

I would probably say that, like all myths, the Eldar gods have a grain of truth to them. As such, the "Gods" would either represent individual Old Ones or the very first Eldar ever created. Intertwine that with the mythological imperative to have characters that represent the archetypes of the race that they spring from, and you get the Eldar mythic cycle. What the Eldar of today call "Asurmen", "Isha" and "Vaul" etc were either a group of Old Ones who actually created their race, with distinct personalities, or were the first and most powerful group of Eldar to be created.

Alternatively, their Gods were actually alive in the Warp, same as Slaanesh, but after the War in Heaven and the Fall, all of their Gods bar Khaine and the Laughing God are totally destroyed and dead, eaten by Slaanesh. Khaine was shattered into fragments and the Laughing God resides within the Webway.

And, for the record, the God of "Murder" and the God of "War" are two very very different things. You almost *never* murder someone in war, you just kill them because they're the enemy. Murder implies premeditation, cold blood, and logical thought.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Sethis said:


> but after the War in Heaven and the Fall, all of their Gods bar Khaine and the Laughing God are totally destroyed and dead, eaten by Slaanesh. Khaine was shattered into fragments and the Laughing God resides within the Webway.


Also Dont forget Isha who is said to still be alive and residing in the Garden of Nurgle.



Sethis said:


> And, for the record, the God of "Murder" and the God of "War" are two very very different things. You almost *never* murder someone in war, you just kill them because they're the enemy. Murder implies premeditation, cold blood, and logical thought.


Very True, and I never said or implied they were the same thing. All I said was that the Eldar/High Elves worship Khaine as the God of War, whereas the Dark Eldar/Dark Elves worship Khaine as the God of Murder.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Sethis said:


> And, for the record, the God of "Murder" and the God of "War" are two very very different things. You almost *never* murder someone in war, you just kill them because they're the enemy. Murder implies premeditation, cold blood, and logical thought.


Now that last sentence seems to sum up the act of killing someone in War as well- you don't kill them because they wronged you personally, you do it with premeditation...


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Sethis said:


> I think the problem with reconciling the myth vs the actual creation of the Eldar is what Gabrial said. GW only put in the random crap about the Old Ones when they wrote the Necron Codex (and is a direct rip-off of Starcraft, but nevermind).


IN GW's defense, both starcraft and warcraft are rip off's of warhammer. in fact warcraft I was originally meant to be a warhammer game but GW didn't sell the license so they changed a few things.


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

i think its worth establishing from the outset that we are not discussing a real event. i know this seems pretty obvious, but its actually quite easy to forget. because the event is not real, there is no reason why the discriptions of it should be logical or add up in any way. its quite plausible that there is simply no rhyme or reason to any of the stories we've been told, and thus we can never reach a satisfactory answer.

this is particularly true of the Eldar myths, because we have relatively little information on them.



Prince Endymion said:


> The Orks were a failed experiment, as they were completely uncontrolable and didn't realy stop the Necrons.


as other have pointed out the Orks were not exactly a failed experiment. they were supposedly created after the Eldar in a last ditch attempt to qwell the C'tan and their Necron horde. but they were never fully implemented because the Enslavers took the upper hand.

ultimately the remaining Old Ones were left alone with their primative Eldar and even more primative Orks. it was at this stage that the Ork society began to fall apart, where the Eldar tried to grow into their inheritance.



Prince Endymion said:


> If this is all correct, than I have a few questions? What the hell are the Eldar Gods? Asuryan, Isha, Khaine, etc, are all parts of the eldar's own creation story - did they not know they were made by the Old Ones?


its important to realise at this point that the 40k understanding of God's is quite different to the modern, Western understanding. because of the prevelance of scientific investigation and monotheism, we tend to envisage 'gods' as being transcendant. they somehow exist before time and space and owe nothing of their being to our universe. this is certainly true of Christianity, Jewdaism, Islam and is at least partially true of Hinduism, Buddhism and Sihkism.

conversely, the denizens of the 40kiverse know nothing of this type of god. their level of understanding is firmly fixed at the level of the polytheistic religions of Greece, Egypt, Scandinavia and other ancient groups. to them, gods are as much a part of the world as you are. they have a beginning and often an end, in exactly the same way your life does. they are not from before time, but are created or emerge within it, and although their influence is great, it is not infinite.

the Eldar gods may well have had a role to play in the formation of the Eldar, but the ability to 'create' should not be confused with being transcendant (though they are often hand-in-hand in our culture). the gods would have, in turn, had a beginning, a concept which would not have been scandalous to those that serve them.



Prince Endymion said:


> If the Eldar Gods are made from the minds of the Eldar, aren't they all essentially deamons? Wouldn't they live in the Warp?


i don't think i've ever read any indication that the Eldar gods are warp beings like Gork and Mork or Khorne and Slaanesh. they are something quite different.

in almost all stories involving the Eldar and their gods, the gods are entirely hands on, rubbing shoulders with the common folk. they may well have been magical beings of supernatural power, but they are also brothers and cousins to the Eldar.

if i were going to try and find a comparision i would have said that the Eldar gods were much more like the Primarchs than Tzeentch.



Prince Endymion said:


> And finally, if that is true, than isn't Khaine the exact same thing as Khorne? Are they aspects of one another, or are the same being just worshiped by different races in different ways?


as i've explained i don't believe they are the same thing, but there is certainly more than a hint of analogy between Khaine and Khorne. one needs only look at the Avatar and Berzerker to see the similarities.



GabrialSagan said:


> The Old Ones were master's of the Warp. Perhaps they created the eldar by creating their gods and instructing them to forge a race.


this seems most probable to me.


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## the Autarch (Aug 23, 2009)

id have to say they're more powerful than that or at least khaine would have been to have fought slaanesh although he did lose a primarch would have just been crushed and for him to break up into thousands of pieces and still have something as strong as an avatar at the other end


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## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

the Autarch said:


> id have to say they're more powerful than that or at least khaine would have been to have fought slaanesh although he did lose a primarch would have just been crushed and for him to break up into thousands of pieces and still have something as strong as an avatar at the other end


There is no definitive proof of that. Primarchs may well be the equal of the chaos gods (though unlikely) but its not something worth debating becouse there will be no answer either way, just whatever logic vindicates your perspective.

There is very little coherency within the story regarding the Eldar Pantheon. hence my original post - the main problem being that the whole 40k storyline took an enoermous down-hill stride with the inception of Necrons and Tau. Both races are poorly written in and did not mesh well at all with the existing fluff.

For me, I had always thought that through the nature of the warp, when the Eldar were a nascent race, their emotions and thoughts took shape in the warp just like all the sentiant races, and their gods were all born, dwelling in the warp like al such beings.

The problem with that theory is that the chaos gods also live in the warp, and the fluff provides no timeline for their creation. We know that they were made in the same fashion - by the thoughts of mortals, but when? If the eldar gods predate the 4 chaos gods, the story would make sense only up until Slaanesh was born, and sinse it is stated that he is the "youngest" chaos god, that creates conflict. 

On the other hand, if the chaos gods predate the eldar gods, would they not have been battling one another all the time? How then are there stories about Khaine battling Vaul and Isha, kidnapping them, and being betrayed, and given permission from Asuryan to take them? 

Also, how was Slaanesh able to battle Khaine and defeat him if they were not in the same realm? Does that not mean Khaine lives (or lived) in the Warp?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Prince Endymion said:


> There is no definitive proof of that. Primarchs may well be the equal of the chaos gods (though unlikely) but its not something worth debating becouse there will be no answer either way, just whatever logic vindicates your perspective.
> 
> There is very little coherency within the story regarding the Eldar Pantheon. hence my original post - the main problem being that the whole 40k storyline took an enoermous down-hill stride with the inception of Necrons and Tau. Both races are poorly written in and did not mesh well at all with the existing fluff.
> 
> ...


I see what your saying - but personally I wouldn't take the myths as being literally true. 

When a myth tells the tale of a god fighting another god, I take it as the god's representing some base form of conflict occuring within Eldar society or within the Eldar Psyche itself (Or thats one possible example anyway). 

For example the theories postulated on the Black Library Forums (I'll try and find a link when the Website is back online) about the nature of the Eldar gods I find extremley interesting.

The idea that Cegorach literally _is_ the Webway, I find one of the most interesting. 

So following this trail of thought, Slaanesh didn't literally fight Khaine whilst the Laughing god fled into the webway. The laughing god's part in the tale could merely represent the Webway itself, whilst Khaine's part maybe represented Slaanesh battling to overcome the base resistance in the Eldar Psyche in order to consume the vast majority of their race. (This is of course Speculation!)


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

the Autarch said:


> id have to say they're more powerful than that or at least khaine would have been to have fought slaanesh although he did lose a primarch would have just been crushed and for him to break up into thousands of pieces and still have something as strong as an avatar at the other end


i apologise, i never meant to imply that the Primarchs and Eldar gods were totally on par. i don't imagine that they are. not even Magnus could control all the Avatars simultaneously as Khaine does. all i was really trying to say was that in nature they were similar. the Eldar gods were not distant concepts but personally present amongst the people.



Prince Endymion said:


> Also, how was Slaanesh able to battle Khaine and defeat him if they were not in the same realm? Does that not mean Khaine lives (or lived) in the Warp?


being able to be in the warp does not necessarily indicate that they were warp entities. if they are creatures with a souls (as they may have been if they were indeed created by the Old Ones), the Eldar gods would have been able to enter the warp, even if it was not their natural home (as Isha may still).

conversely, if they were warp beings, similar in nature to greater daemons, then they would have struggled to have spent any time with the Eldar teaching them and leading them.

if, in this interpretation, Khaine literally fought Slaanesh, then it would seem probable it would have been a physical manifestation of Slaanesh, perhaps similar in nature to a Greater Daemon or Avatar, only more powerful.


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## Bubblematrix (Jun 4, 2009)

> So following this trail of thought, Slaanesh didn't literally fight Khaine whilst the Laughing god fled into the webway. The laughing god's part in the tale could merely represent the Webway itself, whilst Khaine's part maybe represented Slaanesh battling to overcome the base resistance in the Eldar Psyche in order to consume the vast majority of their race. (This is of course Speculation!)


Could the "battle" not simply be in the hearts and minds of the Eldar race then talked into mythic status over the millenia?

i.e. the eldar loyal to the eldar ways took an empassioned battle (khaine) against those who had fell into depravity (slaanesh). The shattering of khaine could easily have been the breaking of the idealogy and storing it in certain personalities spirit stones in the various shrines.

This would then easily fit with the idea that the eldar gods are ideaologies of the eldar that may take form in the warp if the eldar collective psyche is strongly focussed enough (the race being psychicly attuned).
The creation of slaanesh in the warp would be possible if the eldar race were united enough in depravity (which legend suggests was true) and the other aspects of the eldar mind would sometimes take form when the Eldar race is all acting in unison, thus Isha could be "imprisoned" by nurgle as the eternal life of eldar is "imprisoned" by disease, famine and pestilence. The smith Vaul would come into being with the eldars drive to create weapons at its peak in times of war.

It would be a suitably Eldar poetic way of depicting great events, the "gods" would semi-exist by virtue of the acts of the race, and it would neatly tie in with both creation by the old ones, death of their gods and the creation of slaanesh - in that the wills and mindsets of the eldar have been abashed by the events of the fall and so their "gods" have "died".

Just my take on it


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## Grabba (Apr 9, 2009)

Sethis i would just like to point out whaen 40k and warhammer where made 11 years before starcraft and the old ones are also featured in warhammer (Lizard men duh)


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## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I see what your saying - but personally I wouldn't take the myths as being literally true.
> 
> When a myth tells the tale of a god fighting another god, I take it as the god's representing some base form of conflict occuring within Eldar society or within the Eldar Psyche itself (Or thats one possible example anyway).


I have to disagree. 40k is a great game, very well written and peiced together to make a great work of FANTASY.

I stress the fantasy element there becouse in fantasy worlds, even sci-fi fantasy; metaphor is almost non-existant. It is trendy nowadays, with most people in the world having access to seconday education (colleges & universities) that people look at the past in different ways - they may see things differently than they saw them before, and becouse the new perspective comes with the elation of being educated, people often sell out to their newer, more modern views, in favor of the old.

To simplify, looking at the past, people once thought gods to be real, they prayed to them for crops and did voodoo rain dances in hopes of gaining divine favor.

Now, with all of science and education behind us, we are no closer to telling these people they were wrong, only that our logic doesnt match their faith. 

Back to 40k. Mataphor in such fantasy settings is often substituted for fact. In 40k, gods ARE real, they live in the warp and have roles to play just like every else. To say that only _some_ gods are real by way of saying that other gods are metaphors, needlessly complicates the game and draws to players /readers/viewers away. 

I highly doubt that anything in 40k is to be taken as metaphor, or it wouldn't be set in a sci-fi fantasy setting. Its a game after all, not a simulation or prediction of the future.


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## LongseerEldrad (Aug 23, 2009)

One question to add to the pile; slannesh is known to be the 4th chaos god, and so the others must have been there before it- why did they never do battle with the eldar gods if they were in the warp or were some form of deamons?

Also the orks were not a failed experiment- they were the "foot troops" for the old ones. the eldar were fewer in number, didn't spread as fast and were far more elitist and commanding, only after the old ones died did they sort of split off from each other.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Prince Endymion said:


> Back to 40k. Mataphor in such fantasy settings is often substituted for fact. In 40k, gods ARE real, they live in the warp and have roles to play just like every else. To say that only _some_ gods are real by way of saying that other gods are metaphors, needlessly complicates the game and draws to players /readers/viewers away.
> 
> I highly doubt that anything in 40k is to be taken as metaphor, or it wouldn't be set in a sci-fi fantasy setting. Its a game after all, not a simulation or prediction of the future.


Metaphors are common-place in fantasy settings. If a fantasy/sci-fi setting (Like 40k) was just a list of clear-cut facts - it would be fairly boring!

They are often used to create a sense of mystery or 'pull the shroud' over factual events.

Aswell as that, everything in 40k is considered 'canon' - which further then makes use of metaphors. Aswell as that the tales about the Eldar gods are myths. They are not supposed to be facts, because they are myths!



LongseerEldrad said:


> One question to add to the pile; slannesh is known to be the 4th chaos god


Well thats not entirely true. Whilst Slaanesh is the 'youngest' god if we look at the events from the structured chronological passage of time in the Material Plane. Where as in the Warp, time doesn't exist and Slaanesh is noted to have existed since the warp was created whilst at the same time not existed at all. If the Eldar gods are/were Warp entities then its perfectly plausable that Slaanesh actually fought the Eldar Gods in the warp prior to the Fall of the Eldar (possibly even millions of years before, going by the chronological passage of time).



LongseerEldrad said:


> and so the others must have been there before it- why did they never do battle with the eldar gods if they were in the warp or were some form of deamons?


How do we know Khorne/Tzeentch/Nurgle never warred with the Eldar Gods? Just because there are no mythic tales about it doesn't mean it never happened.


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## LongseerEldrad (Aug 23, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> How do we know Khorne/Tzeentch/Nurgle never warred with the Eldar Gods? Just because there are no mythic tales about it doesn't mean it never happened.



well its kinda funny that if they did war then the Eldar always won as they always survived until suddenly BAMMM!! slannesh is here and all the eldar gods are being destroyed one by one by slannesh.


and in a sense time still does run in a line in the warp, just sometimes its bunched up in some places and more time goes past than out of the warp or less time passes (the only story i have heard of time travelling in 40K was one Ork Boss (cant remember the name) created teleporting machines that accidently took him back in time so he went on to get "an extra of his weapon" :grin: )


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

LongseerEldrad said:


> well its kinda funny that if they did war then the Eldar always won as they always survived until suddenly BAMMM!! slannesh is here and all the eldar gods are being destroyed one by one by slannesh.


Warring with the Chaos Gods doesn't necessarily mean they would have been destroyed. They could have fought the Chaos Gods but just have survived. Again im just saying its a plausable occurence.



LongseerEldrad said:


> and in a sense time still does run in a line in the warp, just sometimes its bunched up in some places and more time goes past than out of the warp or less time passes (the only story i have heard of time travelling in 40K was one Ork Boss (cant remember the name) created teleporting machines that accidently took him back in time so he went on to get "an extra of his weapon" :grin: )


Time in the warp has no Chronological Order. Out 'here' in the Material Universe we are used to things happening in a strict sequence of cause and effect. In the warp that simply doesnt happen. It is incomprehensable to us.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I think alot of people are reading way too much into this topic. 

The Eldar Gods are warp entities. Fact. The Avatar of Khain is a DEAMON (surprise) and thus the tale is confirmed as the Avatars only existed after the Fall when Khain was cast out and his hand Bleeds becuase he was a warp entity that killed a great Eldar hero and Asuryn cursed himthereafter. Khain has also battled the C'Tan who built the Pylons to cut OFF the warp from real space. Why would they do this unless beings like Khain has battled them, as any Greater Deamon can exist in real space so can the Eldar Patheon.

The Laughing God is real too, Fact. The Harlequins are the only Eldar who do not wear Soulstones cause there Souls belong to the Laughing God,, NOT the Webway. The Dark Eldar live in the Webway and guess what? Slannesh still slowly eats their souls, the Harlys dont have this problem cause the Laughing God Protects them from this. He also is known for his possible dealings in tricking the C'Tan in consuming eachother and not the Deceiver. 

According to Codex Daemons, Isha is a REAL warp god that was rescued by Nurgle from Slannesh. Nurgle tests his disease on Isha since she is the Eldar's God of Healing. She cures herself and also uses her knowledge to help whatever intelligent species to combat Nurgle's plagues. 

The Story of the Chaos Gods warring eachother in the warp is true as we all know with a shadow of the doubt, so why is the Eldar Patheon being Question? They did Battle with Slannesh who was the sum of the Eldars (key word) decadence. She had a thirst for Eldar souls and being newly empowered by her birth and feeding on 70% of the Eldar race in a psychic backlash probaly gave her the power to consume the ELDAR (key words again) Gods. Even then Khain gave her a fight and she was to weak to destroy him, so instead she BANISH him from the WARP. So thus Khain was a real God. 

There is still the new fluff of Yennead who is being nurtured by the rising souls of the Eldars in the Matrix, and when every Eldar eventualy dies will give birth to this God of the Dead, who will consume Slannesh. 

How is this a debate at all when the Chaos Gods are real and the Eldar Gods are used in the Fluff and Gameplay! I dont understand this metaphor sillyness :laugh:.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> The Eldar Gods are warp entities. Fact.


Its not a fact. We know of the Eldar Gods only through Myths, and Myths are not generally portrayed as being literally true, but potray through a story some moral or hidden truth. 



Warlock in Training said:


> The Avatar of Khain is a DEAMON (surprise) and thus the tale is confirmed as the Avatars only existed after the Fall when Khain was cast out and his hand Bleeds becuase he was a warp entity that killed a great Eldar hero and Asuryn cursed himthereafter. Khain has also battled the C'Tan who built the Pylons to cut OFF the warp from real space. Why would they do this unless beings like Khain has battled them, as any Greater Deamon can exist in real space so can the Eldar Patheon.


Again this is a Myth.



Warlock in Training said:


> The Laughing God is real too, Fact. The Harlequins are the only Eldar who do not wear Soulstones cause there Souls belong to the Laughing God,, NOT the Webway. The Dark Eldar live in the Webway and guess what? Slannesh still slowly eats their souls, the Harlys dont have this problem cause the Laughing God Protects them from this. He also is known for his possible dealings in tricking the C'Tan in consuming eachother and not the Deceiver.


Again a Myth. But regarding the Harlequins, we don't actually know or not whether their souls are consumed by Slaanesh upon their death. It states in the Eldar Codex that they don't wear soul stones, which itself is testiment to there belief that there souls will be protected by Cegorach and not consumed by Slaanesh. No where does it say that there souls actually don't get consumed by Slaanesh.

Anyway, Cegorach doesn't have to be a warp entity in order to protect the Harlequin's souls, if that is what happens. 



Warlock in Training said:


> According to Codex Daemons, Isha is a REAL warp god that was rescued by Nurgle from Slannesh. Nurgle tests his disease on Isha since she is the Eldar's God of Healing. She cures herself and also uses her knowledge to help whatever intelligent species to combat Nurgle's plagues.


Again that is an Eldar myth told on a single Craftworld.



Warlock in Training said:


> The Story of the Chaos Gods warring eachother in the warp is true as we all know with a shadow of the doubt, so why is the Eldar Patheon being Question? They did Battle with Slannesh who was the sum of the Eldars (key word) decadence. She had a thirst for Eldar souls and being newly empowered by her birth and feeding on 70% of the Eldar race in a psychic backlash probaly gave her the power to consume the ELDAR (key words again) Gods. Even then Khain gave her a fight and she was to weak to destroy him, so instead she BANISH him from the WARP. So thus Khain was a real God.


Guess what?! Once again its a myth! What we know about the Chaos Gods isn't myths. All the stories regarding the Eldar Gods are Myths.



Warlock in Training said:


> There is still the new fluff of Yennead who is being nurtured by the rising souls of the Eldars in the Matrix, and when every Eldar eventualy dies will give birth to this God of the Dead, who will consume Slannesh.


There is no evidence for that. A few far-fetched Seers have speculated its possible. As to the potential god Y'nnead consuming Slaanesh.. No, if anything Y'nnead would just loosen Slaanesh's grip on the Eldar thus freeing them from the Thirst. Whilst a single mortal endures so will Slaanesh.


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## Shadow Hawk (Apr 26, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Again a Myth. But regarding the Harlequins, we don't actually know or not whether their souls are consumed by Slaanesh upon their death. It states in the Eldar Codex that they don't wear soul stones, which itself is testiment to there belief that there souls will be protected by Cegorach and not consumed by Slaanesh. No where does it say that there souls actually don't get consumed by Slaanesh.


We do. Pg 5, 2nd paragraph:


> The Harlequins, however, belong to the Laughing God. Their dying spirits merge together with their patron, strengthening his power. The only Harlequin not protected in this way is the Solitaire, who plays the role of Slaanesh in ritual performances and whose spirit already belongs to the Great Enemy.


Perfect to the punctuation. The Harlequins are protected by Cegorach, it's only the Solitaries that don't. Cegorach tricks Slaanesh and steals the Harlequins soul back.

If all the Eldar stories are myths then how come there are avatars? Khaine must have been shattered to have avatars, the embodiment of Khaine himself. If he were not a warp being then how did he battle Slaanesh?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Shadow Hawk said:


> We do. Pg 5, 2nd paragraph:
> Perfect to the punctuation. The Harlequins are protected by Cegorach, it's only the Solitaries that don't. Cegorach tricks Slaanesh and steals the Harlequins soul back.


 Then I stand corrected! I couldn't check my codex as I havn't got it with me so I was working from memory. But still that doesn't automatically mean Cegorach is a warp being.



Shadow Hawk said:


> If all the Eldar stories are myths then how come there are avatars? Khaine must have been shattered to have avatars, the embodiment of Khaine himself. If he were not a warp being then how did he battle Slaanesh?


Well all the Eldar stories regarding there gods are Myths. Khaine's battle with Slaanesh could easily have been metaphorical.

For example, other Eldar Myths include Asuryan creating a barrier between the gods and Eldar preventing them from communicating. Isha and Kurnous giving birth to the Eldar race. The Mythic War in Heaven and so on.

Im not saying some of them didn't happen. But the point is there myths and are not meant to be taken as literal. The Eldar Mythological Cycle is part of the Eldar Psyche and is what binds the Eldar together (supposedly), this could be an argument for saying the gods of the Eldar merely represent different aspects of the Eldar Psyche. My earlier point was in response to Warlock in Training insisting that its a fact that the Eldar Gods were Warp Beings, when it is not.


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## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Guess what?! Once again its a myth! What we know about the Chaos Gods isn't myths. All the stories regarding the Eldar Gods are Myths.


Incorrect.

If you choose to assume that one statement made by GW in their own codecies represents a myth, and then assume another statement they make to be fact, that is simple bias.

At no point does either codex refer to any of its content as mythological in nature, they simply state from time to time that "it is beleived that..." or some eldar beleive..." does not mean it is incorrect, only that it is not widely known or accepted. 

The Imperial creed dictates that the Emperor is a god, when in fact he was alive an walked among men 10,000 years ago. 

Again, what is assumed and what is widely known are very different things. 

I can understand you being partial to the chaos stories, they do have certain lure about them, but they are no different from the other lore, in the eldar codex, SM codex, or even the newer Necron codex.

EVERYTHING in all the codecies are bias in favor of the reader - the reader being assumed to be the player or fan of that faction. 

Your incessant statements about the chaos gods being entities that cannot be understood, or exist in a different realm, only adds credence to my point.

If they could not be understood, than GW would not publish material on them and we would not have a place for them in the story. 

I have no issue with the eldar gods being real beings, whether in the warp or in realspace, and for me there is no argument that they are just as real, a physical a being as the chaos gods. What I DO have an issue with is the material relating to them.

Prior to the release of the necrons and tau, the stories about the "Old Ones" did not exist, and the eldar gods were all that ther was to the story. The addition of the new material creates inconsistancies that divide attention and make the game less enjoyable for me.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Prince Endymion said:


> Incorrect.
> 
> If you choose to assume that one statement made by GW in their own codecies represents a myth, and then assume another statement they make to be fact, that is simple bias.
> 
> At no point does either codex refer to any of its content as mythological in nature, they simply state from time to time that "it is beleived that..." or some eldar beleive..." does not mean it is incorrect, only that it is not widely known or accepted.


Well to be fair, all the information we have on the Chaos Gods via Codices or Novels is presented as fact. Where as, as you pointed out the information we have on the Eldar gods usually states things like "The Eldar believe..." and are myths. Im not saying that that automatically makes them false, but when it is presented as so makes it seem its not meant to be taken literally true or is only part of the whole story. That was my point, not to assume that everything in the Eldar Myths was/is literally true, even though theres a chance it may be.



Prince Endymion said:


> The Imperial creed dictates that the Emperor is a god, when in fact he was alive an walked among men 10,000 years ago.


In the 40k universe I don't see how this is a problem? 



Prince Endymion said:


> Your incessant statements about the chaos gods being entities that cannot be understood, or exist in a different realm, only adds credence to my point.
> 
> If they could not be understood, than GW would not publish material on them and we would not have a place for them in the story.


Well GW has stated several times that the Warp and its inhabitants are incomprehensable. Simply saying that would be tantilising, so they delved further into the nature of the Chaos Gods (largely from the viewpoint of humanity). I dont really understand what your trying to get at here.



Prince Endymion said:


> I have no issue with the eldar gods being real beings, whether in the warp or in realspace, and for me there is no argument that they are just as real, a physical a being as the chaos gods. What I DO have an issue with is the material relating to them.


Nor do I. Again my point was that the Eldar Myths about the gods are just that; myths. Im not saying there were definatly not 'real beings' but just as easily the myths could be talking about the gods metaphorically.

And 'as physical a being as the Chaos Gods'?! The Chaos Gods arn't physical beings :grin:


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Again The Avatar was a Warp Deity. Fact, the Eldar Codex labels him with the DAEMON rule which only exist as WARP entities. FACT. His whole background describes a Warp entity that resembled Khorn but made of Eldar feelings. 

Shadow Hawk already prove the fact of the Laughing God. Again Fact.

The myth of Isha, that is a Fact out of the DAEMON codex, not Eldar dex.

Again in the Eldar Codex Eldrad and many other powerful farseeing Farseers know of the possible birth of the growing presence in the Matrix. This Presence is called Yennead. Fact out of the Eldar Codex. 


These are not seen as metaphoricals maybes. If thats the case then the Ctan and Chaos Gods dont really exist. Seriously how can I belive in the Chaos Gods fluff if the Eldar Gods fluff are overlooked as metaphores and fairytales. Just saying, the Laughing God, and Khain are proof of the Eldar warp deities. They are labeled as fact by the Eldar dexes and stories.

Now with that said again, the stories relating to Eldar Gods seem to be BS. There are so many inconsistancy and WTF type tales that make little sense really.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

The Chaos Gods are physical. its just there has never been a warp rift large enough for them to enter the material world from


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The Chaos Gods *aren't* physical, they can no more leave the immaterium than a fish can decide one day to fly. The Gods of Chaos and the realm they inhabit are not seperate, they're one and the same.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

bobss said:


> The Chaos Gods are physical. its just there has never been a warp rift large enough for them to enter the material world from


As the Baron said, no there not. 

Daemons themselves arn't physical, infact no warp beings are. They are the Stuff of the Immaterial itself, stuff of the Warp.

Same with the Chaos Gods just on a larger scale, the Chaos Gods are one with the warp (which itself is indivisible from Chaos), and are also one with their realms aswell (Fortress of Khorne, Garden of Nurgle etc).



Warlock in Training said:


> Again The Avatar was a Warp Deity. Fact, the Eldar Codex labels him with the DAEMON rule which only exist as WARP entities. FACT.


Indeed.



Warlock in Training said:


> His whole background describes a Warp entity that resembled Khorn but made of Eldar feelings.


Im not aware of any piece of background which explicity states he is a warp entity or that he resembles Khorne.



Warlock in Training said:


> Shadow Hawk already prove the fact of the Laughing God. Again Fact.


No way does that make the Laughing God a Warp Entity though. 



Warlock in Training said:


> The myth of Isha, that is a Fact out of the DAEMON codex, not Eldar dex.


The 'Myth of Isha' is told on a single craftworld, and is by no means necessarily true.



Warlock in Training said:


> Again in the Eldar Codex Eldrad and many other powerful farseeing Farseers know of the possible birth of the growing presence in the Matrix. This Presence is called Yennead. Fact out of the Eldar Codex.


'Possible' is the critical term here, and yes I didn't deny anything about Ynnead.



Warlock in Training said:


> These are not seen as metaphoricals maybes. If thats the case then the Ctan and Chaos Gods dont really exist. Seriously how can I belive in the Chaos Gods fluff if the Eldar Gods fluff are overlooked as metaphores and fairytales. Just saying, the Laughing God, and Khain are proof of the Eldar warp deities. They are labeled as fact by the Eldar dexes and stories.


When I say metaphorical I dont simply mean that the Eldar Gods don't exist, just possibly exist in a different form to what your assuming. I just mean the stories arn't necessarily literally true. No where is it stated that they are warp beings, and all of the fluff on them involves sentences like "The Eldar Believe...", "Some Eldar Seers have....", "Some Eldar Myths endure and...." and other sentences to that effect.


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## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> As the Baron said, no there not.
> 
> Daemons themselves arn't physical, infact no warp beings are. They are the Stuff of the Immaterial itself, stuff of the Warp.
> 
> Same with the Chaos Gods just on a larger scale, the Chaos Gods are one with the warp (which itself is indivisible from Chaos), and are also one with their realms aswell (Fortress of Khorne, Garden of Nurgle etc).


Read the latest (5th?) Ed CSM codex. More specificially read the entry on deamon princes.

It details how its the ultimate goal of chaos marines to ascend, blah blah. But it also says very clearly that they change, and become deamons, their flesh becomes hardened and is composed of the very warp itself... so the warp itself, just like they describe the chaos gods, is physical, in fact, it almost hints that they chaos gods are just extra powerful deamon princes...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Prince Endymion said:


> Read the latest (5th?) Ed CSM codex. More specificially read the entry on deamon princes.
> 
> It details how its the ultimate goal of chaos marines to ascend, blah blah. But it also says very clearly that they change, and become deamons, their flesh becomes hardened and is composed of the very warp itself... so the warp itself, just like they describe the chaos gods, is physical, in fact, it almost hints that they chaos gods are just extra powerful deamon princes...


When Warp Beings (Daemons as an example) manifest in the Material Realm they seem to appear as they have physical bodies. Where as these 'bodies' is just the stuff of warp space, and is essentially 'magic'. If Daemons were physical then they would have no problem manifesting themselves permenatley in the Material Realm. 

The First few pages in the Chaos Daemons Codex under the 'Chaos Daemons' sub-title explains this, and exactly specifies that Daemons are not physical. 

And no where is it hinted or even 'almost' hinted that the Chaos Gods are just powerful Daemon Princes. We know what the Chaos Gods are; the manifestations of particular emotions which have 'built up' over millions of years and eventually gained consciousness. Daemon Princes were once mortals who have been transformed wholly into Daemons by the Chaos Gods. When the codex talks about there flesh becoming hardened, its most logical to assume that this refers to the Daemon Princes appearence in the Material Realm.

Daemons, the Chaos Gods, and other Warp Entities are not Physical beings.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

And before you say that some sources say that the Chaos Gods are just Daemons who become extraordinarily powerful- thats just an opinion by the speaker, not stated as fact.

Daemons of a power originate from their God, they are in fact a part of the God given (semi) independent existence. Only (I say 'only' because no other Daemon form is ever explicity stated as existing in this manner) Daemon Princes and Furies do not owe their existence to a GOd divorcing some of his power to form them into autonomous life. The Princes mights require the gift of Daemonhood but they are not an offshoot of any particular God like say a Bloodletter of Great Unclean One is.


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Daemons are not physical.


which is why in 2nd Ed photon flash flares and virus and poison based genades had no effect on them.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And no where is it hinted or even 'almost' hinted that the Chaos Gods are just powerful Daemon Princes.


either you haven't read the codexes closely enough or your definition of 'Chaos God' is too narrow. there are a huge number of Chaos God, all of whom wax and wane in power; sometimes dominating the pantheon above all others and sometimes disappating into the warp completely. currently there are 4 greater powers, but there are many more lesser powers, some of whom are only as powerful as a greater daemon/daemon prince. this is all talked about in 3.5.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> We know what the Chaos Gods are; the manifestations of particular emotions which have 'built up' over millions of years and eventually gained consciousness.


that is an overly simplistic definition and it doesn't even fit the facts, even if it is the explination most commonly tossed around by GW. Tzeentch and Nurgle do not represent any 'emotion', they represent change and decay. to attatch an emotional meaning to them you would have to use some pretty conveluted logic.

we don't know exactly what 'creates' a Chaos god. emotion is a big part of it, but it is not all of it (otherwise they would not be interested in consuming your soul).



Baron Spikey said:


> And before you say that some sources say that the Chaos Gods are just Daemons who become extraordinarily powerful- thats just an opinion by the speaker, not stated as fact.


that's a rather flippant comeback.

we are talking about a fictional universe, so nothing that we read is truely stated as infalable, imperical fact. and more importantly you can't bring into question the validity of a source when a source hasn't been used.

give us a source and then demonstrate how it matches with your argument. don't just wildly throw out blanket statements that are disconnected from the facts.



Baron Spikey said:


> Only (I say 'only' because no other Daemon form is ever explicity stated as existing in this manner) Daemon Princes and Furies do not owe their existence to a GOd divorcing some of his power to form them into autonomous life.


what about Defilers? Soulgrinders? other daemonically possessed vehicals? they are all independent daemons? what about the undivided greater and lesser daemons that are found in the C: DH? and all the daemons that are illustrated in it but clearly not one of the daemons associated with the Big4? and what about the daemons that are created from the warpshadows of planets, as talked about in RoC? or the undivided daemons that you could create and use in the same?

the truth is that daemonic life is huge and varied. it is truely Chaotic. however, over the years, GW have simplified how they represent this to the point at which it is no-longer considered to be Chaotic at all.

it is the biggest failing of the new C: Daemons, in my opinion. they talked about trying to make the Chaos pantheon feel more like the Greek pantheon, with various gods of different powers, monsters of ancient age and various magical creatures, all of which may or may not have had an association with some others. but instead they seemed to reinforce the standard catagories more than ever. there should have been dozens of new units that we had never seen before, most of which should have been undivided. that would have truely given gamers the feel that Khorne, Tzeentch et al. were part of a spralling world, and that they were kings of it.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

admiraldick said:


> which is why in 2nd Ed photon flash flares and virus and poison based genades had no effect on them.


I take your being sarcastic..! If so read the Chaos Daemons codex where it states that they are not physical.



admiraldick said:


> either you haven't read the codexes closely enough or your definition of 'Chaos God' is too narrow. there are a huge number of Chaos God, all of whom wax and wane in power; sometimes dominating the pantheon above all others and sometimes disappating into the warp completely. currently there are 4 greater powers, but there are many more lesser powers, some of whom are only as powerful as a greater daemon/daemon prince. this is all talked about in 3.5.


I was refering to the 4 Major Chaos Gods. Sorry if I didn't explain that clearly enough.



admiraldick said:


> that is an overly simplistic definition and it doesn't even fit the facts, even if it is the explination most commonly tossed around by GW. Tzeentch and Nurgle do not represent any 'emotion', they represent change and decay. to attatch an emotional meaning to them you would have to use some pretty conveluted logic.


I am aware it is an over-simplified definition, but I didn't really wanna spend 30 minutes posting up relavent quotes and explaining it in more depth. 

Tzeentch is said to represent Hope, and Nurgle Despair - Which are emotions.

Change is a result of and feeds further Hope. And Disease and Plague create and spread Despair. That is how I interpret Nurgle and Tzeentch's 'emotions' anyway.



admiraldick said:


> twe don't know exactly what 'creates' a Chaos god. emotion is a big part of it, but it is not all of it (otherwise they would not be interested in consuming your soul).


I can't get my head around why they wouldn't be interested in consuming souls if they were just spawned of emotion?

Codex Chaos Space Marines, Under the sub-title 'Gods & Champions' (I think its page 8) explains how the Chaos Gods came into being, and its largely the result of prominent emotions taking form in Warpspace. We also know that the souls of Chaos Worshippers get absorbed by their patron gods upon death which further empowers the gods power.


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## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

admiraldick said:


> that is an overly simplistic definition and it doesn't even fit the facts, even if it is the explination most commonly tossed around by GW. Tzeentch and Nurgle do not represent any 'emotion', they represent change and decay. to attatch an emotional meaning to them you would have to use some pretty conveluted logic.
> 
> 
> we don't know exactly what 'creates' a Chaos god. emotion is a big part of it, but it is not all of it (otherwise they would not be interested in consuming your soul).


Reference Pg. 8 paragraph 2 of Codex: CSM

_"These instictual, formless beings gained rudimentary consciousness and the chaos gods were born - vast psychich presences made of the dreams and nightmares of mortals"_ 

Also refer to Pg. 61 paragraph 2 of Codex: CSM

_"Each chaos god is a coalescence of countless souls, greater than the sum of its parts but capable of investing its essence into the creation of daemons."_




admiraldick said:


> the truth is that daemonic life is huge and varied. it is truely Chaotic. however, over the years, GW have simplified how they represent this to the point at which it is no-longer considered to be Chaotic at all.


I hate being the one to say this, as I truly enjoy playing my CSM army, but Chaos is anything but chaotic. 

Miriam-Webster define Chaos as: _the inherent unpredictability in the behavior of a complex natural system._
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Chaos

Chaos, not the word but the realm, is quite predictable in the 40k universe. Imperial ships navigate the warp regularly. I am not sure how many of you know what it means to navigate but it requires many _constants_. By this a mean to navigate there must some constant by which a navigator may fix or triangulate his or her position relative to his or her point of origin and destination. 

The very idea of there being constants is antithetical to the very word _chaos_. Yet for 10,000 years mankind has traveled the width and breadth of his empire by using the warp. 

Also, possessed marines, possessed vehichles, greater and lesser daemons, and even the chaos gods themselves behave in largely sequenced and placable ways. The fact the chas gods have personality is credit to this.

Also think of the black library, the repositry that houses all knowledge of chaos. To say that anything can contain all the knowledge of chaos is indicitive of some form of order or the readers who have been known to enter the library would not have been able to gain anything from it. Yet Eldar and Inquisitor alike venture there and make use of said knowledge.



admiraldick said:


> it is the biggest, with various gods of different powers, monsters of ancient age and various magical creatures, all of which may or may not have had an association with failing of the new C: Daemons, in my opinion. they talked about trying to make the Chaos pantheon feel more like the Greek pantheon some others. but instead they seemed to reinforce the standard catagories more than ever. there should have been dozens of new units that we had never seen before, most of which should have been undivided. that would have truely given gamers the feel that Khorne, Tzeentch et al. were part of a spralling world, and that they were kings of it.


I can only agree with you here. The Codex: Chaos Daemons is among the biggest blunders of GW, along with the Necrons and the Tau. It is inconsistant with existing fluff published in the various other codecies, and affords its readers only more misinformation.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Prince Endymion said:


> Reference Pg. 8 paragraph 2 of Codex: CSM
> 
> _"These instictual, formless beings gained rudimentary consciousness and the chaos gods were born - vast psychich presences made of the dreams and nightmares of mortals"_
> 
> ...


:grin:



Prince Endymion said:


> I hate being the one to say this, as I truly enjoy playing my CSM army, but Chaos is anything but chaotic.
> 
> Miriam-Webster define Chaos as: _the inherent unpredictability in the behavior of a complex natural system._
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Chaos
> ...


Thats a very good point. Although GW like to claim that Chaos is Chaotic (Essentially completley Random) in the 40k universe there are things which make us doubt that. In the first few pages of the Daemons Codex it explains that the warp is contradictory and makes it out to be random and Chaotic.

The Imperium Navigate the warp by using Navigators, humans who have developed the Navigator gene, which enables them to 'see into' the warp and guide their ship. Im not sure myself, but would this prevent the Warp from being utterly random? Maybe you could factor in that the Geller Field brings some form of order and reality into the warp with the ship which could seemingly effect the Warp's Chaotic nature (Randomness)?

Im not sure about this myself, but its a interesting topic  



Prince Endymion said:


> Also, possessed marines, possessed vehichles, greater and lesser daemons, and even the chaos gods themselves behave in largely sequenced and placable ways. The fact the chas gods have personality is credit to this.


Well to be fair, Possessed Marines and Vehicles are not Chaos or the Warp, they are just infused with some daemons' (who itself tends to be part of one of the Chaos Gods') essence. Regarding Daemons and the Chaos Gods themselves though you may be correct. Although you could argue that the Chaos Gods are entirely random based on a narrow selection of choices set by their respective emotions. Although that seems contradictory to the fact that the Chaos Gods do actually occasionally respond to events occuring in the Material Universe (Rise of the Emperor for example).



Prince Endymion said:


> Also think of the black library, the repositry that houses all knowledge of chaos. To say that anything can contain all the knowledge of chaos is indicitive of some form of order or the readers who have been known to enter the library would not have been able to gain anything from it. Yet Eldar and Inquisitor alike venture there and make use of said knowledge.


The Black Library doesn't contain all knowledge of Chaos. But what the Eldar have compiled over millions of years. But yes you have another good point here. 

I think it ultimately boils down to GW trying to balace a Chaotic nature (Pure Randomness) with a dimension/gods which then interact with the Material Realm and respond in (sometimes) predictable and seemingly ordered ways. Which they have done in part, but could never do in full. :grin:


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## oblivion8 (Jun 17, 2009)

I apologize if anything I say contradicts with before posts but i skipped a few of em.

Just want to bring up a few points I’ve noticed from reading the fluff:

Someone said before that the nightbringer fought an eldar god. The nightbringer is a physical manifestation, a being like any man woman or child. Therefore it "battling" an eldar god would reflect that the eldar god itself is a physical manifestation an actual eldar member (much like a phoenix lord I can imagine). So in my eye it seems that the eldar gods were older members of their race, like the emperor or primarchs. The chaos gods are also (at least partially) manifested, as it states what they look like and how they act physically in the daemons codex (which does sort of take away from the "chaos" image). I honestly don’t think we can comprehend how they battle within the warp (for all we know the warp could itself manifest terrain for them to fight upon) but i do however think that all the gods in the game were (at one point at least) physical manifestations that could interact with the mortals of the world. Even the chaos gods who will never stop fighting amongst themselves therefore never prove a greater threat to mortals. The term "gods" in the game I believe is just a title representing their paragon like status above their peers, not an actual "being" of omnipotence and energy like existence.

Second is the fact that I have been closely reading the necron codex and gw has hidden some neat little tidbits (as far as i can tell) that someone might breeze over at first glance. There are 4 remaining ctan in the universe (at least ctan that were put in a physical form) and among them are obviously the nightbringer, deceiver, outsider, and (at least i think) the "dragon". I just wanted to bring this whole topic up because (while pertaining to the thread) is interesting to speculate. Anyways, from everything that I have read (and forgive me if it’s a common known fact) there is a ctan in stasis on mars, and another that is thought to have not woken as well (however i don’t know where, i think on an ancient eldar forge world maybe). The tech priests worship the machine god, and the title god is only given to a being of immense power, therefore i believe the ctan is being worshipped as the machine god (it may be awake then) and if I’m not mistaken the outsider is the one on mars (under the mentioned labyrinth). The laughing god is the point I’m trying to get to though as it is said in the codex that the laughing god tricked the outsider to start feasting upon its brothers. Who else tricked ctan into feasting on themselves, the deceiver. Which leads me to believe that the eldar were tricked into believing the deceiver was the laughing god, which is quite plausible given the fact that he has taken on the forms of countless higher ups.

I’ve been stewing over these ideas for a while, and was wondering what you guys thought of them. A ctan worshiped by the eldar, a whole sect of the eldar falsely following (not to mention giving there souls up) to the deceiver.:shok:


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I take your being sarcastic..! If so read the Chaos Daemons codex where it states that they are not physical.


 that's not a very nice assumption. particularly considering its true.

i was agreeing that they are not physical and that is that very background that drove the rules that prevented them from being effected by the types of grenades i mentioned.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Tzeentch is said to represent Hope, and Nurgle Despair - Which are emotions.


i don't doubt that after years of ambiguously saying that the Big4 are derived from emotions, someone finally pointed out that there was no such emotional connection for Nurgle and Tzeentch. so shortly after 3.5 there was an attempt to 're-write' their purpose to include some semblence of emotion.

however, that doesn't really change anything. Tzeetch is very obviously not spawned from 'hope'. try typing hope into Google image search (which could be said to be the coallecent images of peoples thoughts) and see if it conjures up anything that looks like Tzeentch (because if you type in 'desire' and 'anger' with safe search off you will get stuff that is reminicent of Slaanesh and Khorne). 

there may have been vague, indescript emotions arbitrarally assigned to Tzeentch and Nurgle, but there are most certainly not the products of them.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I can't get my head around why they wouldn't be interested in consuming souls if they were just spawned of emotion?


because live people are generally regarded as being more emotional than dead ones.

if you are made of emotions then you 'feed' on emotions, making you bigger and thus stronger. dead people offer no such emotions, or at best a finite amount.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Codex Chaos Space Marines, Under the sub-title 'Gods & Champions' (I think its page 8) explains how the Chaos Gods came into being


i think i can see where we are getting hung up here. what i am saying is that the problem that we keep running into is that we are given 2 accounts of the Chaos Gods. one is a generic mythic creation story, in which we are told that the gods are made from the stuff of emotions. the exception to this is Slaanesh, whose creation story is a special case.

then we are given the specific details of the gods, which are entirely divorced and often inconsistant with their 'creation' story.

either we can blithely ignore the inconsistancy and come up with some tenuous link between the two (like 'hope' and 'despair') and hope that we cover all the bases (which sadly it doesn't. who's hope created Tzeentch? humans? eldar? old ones? wasn't he around before all that nonsense?)

or we can say that the mythic creation story doesn't actually apply in all sitations, but it is perhaps the most common way that a powerful daemon/god is congealed from the aether.

eitherway we have to break the background. the story has been written contradictory.



Prince Endymion said:


> I hate being the one to say this, as I truly enjoy playing my CSM army, but Chaos is anything but chaotic.
> 
> Miriam-Webster define Chaos as: _the inherent unpredictability in the behavior of a complex natural system._
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Chaos


i'm afraid i disagree. there are a number of different ways in which the term Chaos can be used, and predicatbility is inherent in all of them (even if the predicition is that the next result cannot be predicted acurately, or that if you take a sheet of squared paper and randomly colour in some squares black, that the sheet will look grey at the end).

eitherway, that is not really what is being questioned here. the point still remains that the life of daemonic beings is more complex that can be accounted for within the rules of the game currently. and that as the rules are the main way in which we interact with the background, that leads to misinterpretation.


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## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

admiraldick said:


> eitherway, that is not really what is being questioned here. the point still remains that the life of daemonic beings is more complex that can be accounted for within the rules of the game currently. and that as the rules are the main way in which we interact with the background, that leads to misinterpretation.


In the the world of 40k as it plays itself out in my head, you are correct. There are likely untold numbers of daemons that are not detailed in the codecies and many more besides which have never been mentioned and never will. 

Is this a bad thing? No.

Just becouse something is not written in a codex does not mean it doesn't exist in the fantasy realm of 40k. In fact, the game takes place 100% in the imagination of the players, so the rules and books themselves are just a mdeium for sharing that and giving players a vocabulary for communicating on some common ground.

However, is it okay to use that fact to compound an assumption about what in the game is cannonical or official? No.

To paraphrase, you cannot arbitrate what we do know about the game, by means of what we do not know about the game.


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## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

Prince Endymion said:


> Just becouse something is not written in a codex does not mean it doesn't exist in the fantasy realm of 40k.


this is becoming quite off topic, so i won't respond on this thread of conversation again after this post.

however, i'm not suggesting that there should be some kind of exhaustive list of daemons. i'm more than capable of imagining my own. the problem is that the rules do not represent the background well, and whilst i'm free to imagine anything i want, i can only play those things that i am given rules for (or at least those things that can be represented by the rules). rather than being a wide selection of units that i can represent as i see fit, there are a small number of units with a limited number of uses. that is pretty much the opposite of the background.



Prince Endymion said:


> To paraphrase, you cannot arbitrate what we do know about the game, by means of what we do not know about the game.


i'm not sure what exactly that is in reference to. what exactly was being arbitrated on?


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## Kaithan (Aug 20, 2009)

Well for the ideas that Khaine is Khorne or the aspect of Khorne is a bit off I guess.

How do you explain the Avatar of Khaine than ?
The avatar's shell is chosen from the veterans of many wars and the avatar has a burning hatred to any demon or such (even for khornite demons and other servants).
It has the aspect of fire and usually seen as a melting rock in a shape of an eldar warrior.
Ok, his hands are always bloodied but tell me:
Why on earth Khorne would fight his own minions when a khornite army attacks an eldar settlement/craftworld, ect. ?

Even if Khorne is not a god of strategy and complex thinking he is not that stupid.
As a side note: sometimes the inquisition deems the avatar to be a demon himself. Not sure though ^^;


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## Tha Tall One (Aug 16, 2008)

Khorne does not care if he 'wins', he only cares about blood. It must flow. Who's blood does not matter to Khorne, as long as it flows.


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## Kaithan (Aug 20, 2009)

Tha Tall One said:


> Khorne does not care if he 'wins', he only cares about blood. It must flow. Who's blood does not matter to Khorne, as long as it flows.


Hehhe I know 
"Blood for the Blood God" ^^
Still I guess sometimes he plans some war when he is a bit sane :biggrin:
Though I must admit that is not frequent :wink:


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