# Adeptus Arbites, what do they do and what are they armed with?



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

So I posed a few questions about a book a little bit ago in another thread. I got some alarming answers. Most shocking were some the ones surrounding the Adeptus Arbites. Naturally they don't get much stage time in most Warhammer books, and lacking their own codex I can't find much info on them.

So I'd like to hear from everyone else what exactly their duties are as well as what they are typically armed with and what sort of other tools they have at their disposal.

I'll repost my questions regarding them after a good sample of answers have been given as to avoid contaminating the answers.


----------



## the Autarch (Aug 23, 2009)

they are basically like police usually armed with riot guns (shotguns) and pistols, in terms of tools according to the Eisenhorn books they make great use of landspeeders for transport and microbeads for vox work.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Shotguns, Bolters, Macro Cannons (basically, a bunker housing a Cannon which is used by a deepspace ship as a broadside weapon), Power Weapons, Riot Shields, Sniper Rifle, Repressors (Rhino's converted to a Turret housing a Storm Bolter and an extended hull space allowing more firing slits), Autocannons, Frag and Krak Grenades.

They're likely to also have access to much of the equipment the Imperial Guard, or PDF are capable of fielding.


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

They aren't concerened with keeping the law on the planet on which they are stationed, rather they are concerened with keeping the Imperial law. I think it's like they are unconcerned with theft, gangers, speeding, assaults; rather they are looking-out for people trading in/smuggling Chaos artifacts or Xenods artifacts, Government officials backsliding on their Imperial commitments, ganger activity that impacts on the Ecclesiarchy premises or PDF recruitment. I saw a good parallel in that the Arbites are more like the FBI, than the Police.
As posted above, the Arbites are famous for use of Shotguns with the Executioner shells. These shells have a miniaturised tracker in the tip which allows them to follow the target around corners and can even go through walls. They use Cyber-Mastiffs, riot gas, stum gas, shok mauls and suppression shields. I do believe they use Chimera-like vehicles that they call Black Marias, much like the old British Police vans. Hope this helps.

GFP


----------



## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Eisenhorn has the best info on them! They have a minor part in the book Dark Apostle, and I think the Enforcer trilogy is about the Adeuptus Arbites.  There used to be miniatures featuring them actually, seen them myself.


----------



## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

forkmaster said:


> There used to be miniatures featuring them actually, seen them myself.


There still are. Adeptus Arbites.

As GFP said, they only get involved when it looks like the planetary rulers are swaying in their devotion to the Imperium, neglecting to pay their tithes, being corrupted by xenos or chaos, etc. Basically, their remit is to root out anything on a planet that may threaten the Imperium as a whole.

They are yet another cool bit of fluff that has been dropped out of the game in the more recent editions. Hopefully if there is a new WH codex, they will get an entry.


----------



## turel2 (Mar 2, 2009)

They are basically riot police. They keep order with the locals. They keep the imperial laws. They hunt down Mutants/Heretics/Alien influence.


----------



## Harriticus (Nov 10, 2010)

In addition to the above they also use Sentinels, Chimeras, and Valkyries. Considering the planetary Arbites Fortress has to be able to take on the local Imperial Governor if need be, they probably have Leman Russ' as well. Recent bit of fluff has them with their own small patrol fleet for operations within a system as well.


----------



## MikelAmroni (Nov 29, 2010)

The necromunda PDF on them is quite enlightening as well. I got to it from the model that was linked by Khorne's Fist. Here is the direct link to the PDF: 
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1330051_Nec_Enforcers.pdf

And here is the link to the Necromunda Resources Page I got it from. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/c...0009a&categoryId=1100011&section=&aId=5300010

I think I know what I'm going to be searching for the next time I do minis for Shadowrun.  Also saw some in there I might use for some other projects I have in mind.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Now that we have some answers (varying between rough tough bastards with riot shields, shotguns all the way to them using Leman Russes and Super-Heavy vehicles), I'll ask some of my previous questions from a WH40k book "Execution Hour". They'll start off from relative gray, yeah, sure, that might happen to holy hell what the heck was the author thinking. As this is will be a series of questions asked one at a time, I would like everyone to stick to the latest question. If you would like to discuss a previous question further please take it to PMs or another thread. I do this because threads tend to get messy when multiple questions are being juggled.

So, first question, entire squads of Arbites are armed with suppression shields and *power* mauls. In a previous thread a couple people mentioned that power weapons are not, in fact, rare and powerful weapons, but rather common. This contradicted my understanding of the rarity of power weapons. To have them given wholesale to a squad of Arbites on a routine sweep of low-hive malcontents seemed a little...odd.

Yes, they are power mauls and not shock mauls.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Power Refers to "powered" weaponry - and it refers, IIRC, to one changing the battery on his maul; batteries cannot store electricity, and are inherently of lower power than a true power pack (similar to a Lasgun as opposed to a Lascannon), and they are capable of setting the weaponry to lower power or higher power to conserve power.

Hence; suggesting their are varying qualities of weaponry; and considering their almost Paramilitary/SWAT/SF role, then it makes sense that their overlords would see fit to outfit particular role squads with particular equipment for a specific task.

Also, nomenclature is a relatively malleable thing. I can't remember the quote where it stated that an entire squad was given power mauls. Could you post it up, or a page number please?


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I have never heard of levels of power weapons--the closest to it would be in the Eisenhorn trilogy where Eisenhorn talks about a better power weapon, one without a blade. I guess it was closer to a light saber than the traditional power sword that has a regular blade sheathed in energy.

But if you have a source that says that there are varying quality of power weapons--ones that are bad enough to be common or at least uncommon, I'd love to read it.

And about the quote of squads having them, "...to be met by an impassive line of rebreather-wearing Arbite troops armed with crackling power mauls and suppression shields." It's in the second paragraph of the second chapter in part two.


----------



## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Actually, they use both power mauls and shock mauls with only a minor difference between them. And I wouldn't let the 'power' aspect of the name deceive you into thinking that it is in the same caliber as other power weapons. Power mauls are on the bottom of the scale of both power and rarity for power weapons. Yes, power weapons are rarer in comparison to other typical melee weapons but their rarity all depends on their type. To but it bluntly, a power maul is a simpler, easier and cheaper to manufacture compared to more powerful weapons such as Lightning Claws. In fact, the power mauls are actually significantly weaker than other power weapons, reflecting the fact that they are primarily used to break down doors and incapacitate their enemies.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

What makes them easier to create? I thought the difficulty in creating power weapons relied upon the powered portion. I couldn't imagine that creating a power field around a maul would be any more difficult than creating it around a sword.


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Whilst I don't normally take this route, because I'm not one to try to say what someone _meant_ to say when they clearly said something else, I'm of the opinion that the Author may have meant Shock Mauls. 
If we look at the context of Maul-type weapons used by Arbites, what we see is that they are not power weapons, rather they are like heavier Nightstick type weapons with a surrounding energy field that makes them more formidable; this field, rather than giving the Maul a monomoleculer edge, instead seems to make blows more powerful and able to break down doors/through crowds, amplifying the user's strength in a small way.
Then again, I might be totally wrong and some Arbites squads may be issued with true Power Weapons depending on the gravity of the situation. The Arbites are an old organisation, so I imagine there could be a fair few of these weapons in their arsenal.

GFP


----------



## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

Some of us still field the arbites...


----------



## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

hailene said:


> What makes them easier to create? I thought the difficulty in creating power weapons relied upon the powered portion. I couldn't imagine that creating a power field around a maul would be any more difficult than creating it around a sword.


I've never heard of there being difficulties in making standard power weapons. Of course there would be plenty of places in the Imperium were power weapons would be extremely hard if not out right impossible but at the same time there are plenty worlds (ie. Forge Worlds) where they would be considerably more common.

Like I said before, power mauls use the same technology as power weapons but at a lower level.

GFP: It depends upon how the maul acted because power mauls and shock mauls are two similar but different weapons. Unlike the power mauls, shock mauls do not generate a power field. Rather they generate an electric current that is discharged on contact.


----------



## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> I think it's like they are unconcerned with theft, gangers, speeding, assaults


If these crimes are a major problem or pose a large problem to the planet remaining a part of the Imperium then they will take part. I would suggest reading the Enforcer series.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Akatsuki13 said:


> I've never heard of there being difficulties in making standard power weapons. Of course there would be plenty of places in the Imperium were power weapons would be extremely hard if not out right impossible but at the same time there are plenty worlds (ie. Forge Worlds) where they would be considerably more common.
> 
> Like I said before, power mauls use the same technology as power weapons but at a lower level.
> 
> GFP: It depends upon how the maul acted because power mauls and shock mauls are two similar but different weapons. Unlike the power mauls, shock mauls do not generate a power field. Rather they generate an electric current that is discharged on contact.


Power weapons must be rare. Typically they're only used by the highest officials within the Imperium, Inquisitors and high-ranking officers in the Guard and Navy, and even then, only sometimes. Space Marines are given the finest gear the Imperium can offer and most marines must make due with either a combat blade or a chain sword.

Could you cite a source where power mauls use the same technology as other power weapons but at a lesser level?


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Guard Sergeants can take Power Swords.

If Arbites Riot Police are of Sergeant Rank, then how would it be too hard to utilise Power Weapons for them?

Also, Space Marine Chainswords/Combat Knives share about as much in common with the IG chainsword etc as a kitchen knife.

The teeth and blades of SM equipment are ground to monomolecular thin-ness, for example, and are capable of cracking open SM armour.

Also, using that train of thought - if all SM's can carry Heavy Bolters, why aren't all equipped with Heavy Bolters, only dropping the Heavy Bolter when need occurs?

Also, factor in the effectiveness over efficiency argument for SM's on long campaigns against the Power Sword. A Barrett XM500 is one of the most powerful rifles in the world, capable of firing a .50 Calibre bullet at beyond visual range. Why aren't more used in Afghanistan?


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

First off, let's not get the TT mixed in. Rules set there are created for balance purposes. Unless 3 guardsmen are suddenly worth more than one tactical marine?

And could you cite a source that says chainweapons amongst the different branches are different (besides size, obviously). 

All SMs don't carry heavy bolters because it slows them down (as stated in "Rynn's World"), and it requires a moment of bracing to open fire. It's less tactically flexible than a bolter.

And you seem to love using real life examples. You should know that a Barrett XM500 is a sniper rifle and that it has very limited situations where it'd be useful.

Unless you can tell me why you'd want a chainsword over a powersword your argument holds no water.


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

There's a bit of fluff in the 2nd Edition Tyranids codex about an Arbite defending an Arbites armoury, so they obviously have some more powerful weaponry to warrant a secured armoury for it. They're also mentioned in the Ichar V fluff in the same book, defending a group of generators for seven days against the worst an established Genestealer cult could throw at them before destroying those same generators with melta bombs to stop the mfalling into the wrong hands. The surviving Arbites then join up with th Imperial Guard to advance on the centre of the infestation, using LRBTs and other heavy armour.

Midnight


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

hailene said:


> First off, let's not get the TT mixed in. Rules set there are created for balance purposes. Unless 3 guardsmen are suddenly worth more than one tactical marine?


No; actually, lets. Who are you to say what is, and what isn't acceptable as proof? The rules take the fluff and attempt to present it in a gamer friendly fashion. It's utterly retarded to reject one source of proof when it's part of the situation at hand.

And could you cite a source that says chainweapons amongst the different branches are different (besides size, obviously). [/quote]
Frost Weapons.



> All SMs don't carry heavy bolters because it slows them down (as stated in "Rynn's World"), and it requires a moment of bracing to open fire. It's less tactically flexible than a bolter.


That's precisely the point I'm making. Thank you for agreeing.



> And you seem to love using real life examples. You should know that a Barrett XM500 is a sniper rifle and that it has very limited situations where it'd be useful.


Course I do. And Limited Situations? A Barrett being a Sniper Rifle allows you to sit at stand off ranges, killing *********; one of the best weapons for the job. Why is it not the best weapon? It's not as tactically efficient. Thank you once again for proving it.



> Unless you can tell me why you'd want a chainsword over a powersword your argument holds no water.


Chainsword = many teeth. Break teeth, weapon still works, power source fails, still capable of serration.
Powersword = one edge solid weapon, breakable by strong force, dynamically weak shape, hard to repair, and replace.

Why do some Captains choose to use Chainswords over Power Swords then?


----------



## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Vaz said:


> And could you cite a source that says chainweapons amongst the different branches are different (besides size, obviously).
> Frost Weapons.
> 
> 
> ...


OK 1st thing Frost Blades are special weapons which are made from the teeth of leviathins from Fenris and are only given to SW, maybe given as a gift to another SM, never seen this in fluff.

2. Powerswords are more expensive than chainswords, no proof but going by common sense and by the fact everyone has them compared to the power weapons., requires circuitry and larger power source.

3. I have no proof in the fluff sense but have you ever tried to chop a tree down with a unpowered chainsaw, your arms are going to fall off before you make a dent, an axe is faster. One of the HH it mentions a normal chaisword skipping across armor when it is on, every fluff with PS it mentions them cutting through SM armor like paper.

4. Power swords are able to cut through metal more easily than chainswords, sauce....eversingle codex which has a power weapon, and every fluff that has a power weapon, and the Big book.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

locustgate said:


> OK 1st thing Frost Blades are special weapons which are made from the teeth of leviathins from Fenris and are only given to SW, maybe given as a gift to another SM, never seen this in fluff.


He asked for an example that some chain weapons are better than others. He wanted proof, I gave it.



> 2. Powerswords are more expensive than chainswords, no proof but going by common sense and by the fact everyone has them compared to the power weapons., requires circuitry and larger power source.


No complaints there.



> 3. I have no proof in the fluff sense but have you ever tried to chop a tree down with a unpowered chainsaw, your arms are going to fall off before you make a dent, an axe is faster.


Compare that to hitting an animal carcass however with an iron bar with serrated edges, and you'll see while not efficient, it's still decent and capable of causing incapacitating wounds. A Power Sword that was shattered at the hilt will be utterly useless, and if the edges of the chainswords monomolecular thin teeth won't cut a targets armour open, a damaged power supply/source of a power sword render it useless.



> 4. Power swords are able to cut through metal more easily than chainswords, sauce....eversingle codex which has a power weapon, and every fluff that has a power weapon, and the Big book.


Nobody's disputing that.

How was that post relevant at all?


----------



## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Compare that to hitting an animal carcass however with an iron bar with serrated edges, and you'll see while not efficient, it's still decent and capable of causing incapacitating wounds. A Power Sword that was shattered at the hilt will be utterly useless, and if the edges of the chainswords monomolecular thin teeth won't cut a targets armour open, a damaged power supply/source of a power sword render it useless.


Correction Frost Weapons are made from Kraken teeth. Just reread the entry about frost weapons they are also energised, counting as Power Weapons.

Im assuming he's talking about a NORMAL chain weapon that every Space Marine uses.

As I understand it a power sword is still a sword, it has a blade, and the argument that if you only have a hilt left it is useless just as a chainsword with only a hilt. Yes you can still hurt someone with a unpowered chainsword, if you slash and pull or else it will just leave some teeth marks, or with a unpowerd sword you can cut.

In one of the IG books it mentioned that when the power source ranout he still used it like a sword.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Have you ever read of a sergent or lower ranking Guard user ever using a power weapon legitimately his or hers? Just give one book or codex reference. Obviously they're common enough.

Next, I can not believe you're going to try to argue that chain weapons have attributes better than power weapons. When chainswords stop working you have a big club. When a power sword stops working you have a...sword. 

As Locustgate said, nothing stops power weapons except another power weapon. Other material is cleaved through like butter. The TT shows it as a pure upgrade. You ignore armor saves where chainswords patently do not.

And your idea of Frost Blades is rather silly. Yes, they have better chainswords for Frost Blades. It falls apart when you consider that the rest (Skyclaws, Bloodclaws, ect) use "normal" chain weapons. Good that you made the distinction that, yes, there are some awesome chain weapons that go above the norm, but explain how their chain weapons differ from the other branches.

Ironically, Frost Blades and Axes are power weapons. Whoops!


----------



## Anarkitty (Jul 29, 2008)

Without getting into a discussion of why, here is how it is broken down in Dark Heresy (which I believe is canon, and makes fewer concessions for the sake of simplifying or balancing rules):

The Arbites get shock mauls at lower ranks, and can earn or be issued power mauls at higher ranks. Shock mauls have capacitors and discharge shocks on impact. Power mauls have "power fields" and disrupt solid matter on contact, which allows them to be more useful against armor, as well as doing more damage to "soft" targets. The reason it is a maul (as opposed to a sword or axe) is tradition. It is a badge of office. When the power is turned off, it can also be used to subdue suspects instead of killing them.
While the rules do not address it, I would imaging that the maul is also harder to damage than other shock/power weapons.
There is not, however, any difference between the power field of a power maul or the power field of a power sword if the weapons are made to the same standard. A poorly-made power sword is slightly less effective than an average-quality power maul, and vise-versa. The damage they do varies due to their respective shapes, that is the only real difference.



(specifically ignoring the power vs chain, tactical vs practical, common vs rare argument as it does not pertain to the original discussion)


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Anarkitty said:


> The Arbites get shock mauls at lower ranks, and can earn or be issued power mauls at higher ranks.


I can't quite find that in my copy of Dark Heresy. No mention of more senior Arbites getting power mauls. In fact, power mauls aren't even listed as a weapon in the game. But I just flipped through it real quick, reading up on the Arbite's description and weapon pages. Could you cite the page so I can find it, please?

Edit: I was just thinking how preposterous the line of thought "Well, on the TT sergeants can buy power swords so they must be common!" is. You can pick up multiple deathstrike missile launchers or rare Leman Russ variants like the Vanquisher or Executioner. Those same sergeants can buy boltguns (not bolt pistols, but boltguns), power fists, and plasma pistols. Are those all suddenly relatively common for NCOs?


----------



## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

Rarity in the 40k universe is rather dependent on the level of technology that the home world of the raising regiment is able to do.

Check the fluff for RT and even some of the later Guard books and you will find examples of IG regiments armed with pikes, armed with crossbows and even black powder weapons...

The 40k universe is a dynamic place. Even the humble lasgun of the guard is not always issued to the IG forces... so it really does depend upon the home worlds level of technological advancement.

Could an advanced hive world produce enough plasma weapons to equip most of its IG regiments leaving world with plasma weaponry or power swords? Possible... just as its possible that a very primitive world would recruit more Rough Riders as knights etc rather than infantry forces.

As for the scope of it, the codex is there to give you the choice of armament and is strictly for most purposes legit... you can equip NCO's with plasma weapons and bolt weapons, so they have to be common enough to be included.

In fact the standard old tallarn sgt figure, comes with a plasma pistol as standard armament, the older catachan lt comes with a bolt gun, so does the tallarn lt. The weapons are produced somewhere...


----------



## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Alexious said:


> Could an advanced hive world produce enough plasma weapons to equip most of its IG regiments leaving world with plasma weaponry or power swords? Possible... just as its possible that a very primitive world would recruit more Rough Riders as knights etc rather than infantry forces.


How do the guards keep from blowing their own arms off everytime they practice. Which version does it talk about the knight, rough riders, if at all, or book I want to read about a knight charging a SM.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

hailene said:


> Have you ever read of a sergent or lower ranking Guard user ever using a power weapon legitimately his or hers? Just give one book or codex reference. Obviously they're common enough.


Codex: Imperial Guard. I already did.



> Next, I can not believe you're going to try to argue that chain weapons have attributes better than power weapons. When chainswords stop working you have a big club. When a power sword stops working you have a...sword.


When a power sword loses its power supply and loses it's edge you have a club as well. When a chainsword stops working and loses a few teeth, you have a ragged edged big club. If you cannot believe, then happily fuck off.



> As Locustgate said, nothing stops power weapons except another power weapon. Other material is cleaved through like butter. The TT shows it as a pure upgrade. You ignore armor saves where chainswords patently do not.





> And your idea of Frost Blades is rather silly. Yes, they have better chainswords for Frost Blades. It falls apart when you consider that the rest (Skyclaws, Bloodclaws, ect) use "normal" chain weapons. Good that you made the distinction that, yes, there are some awesome chain weapons that go above the norm, but explain how their chain weapons differ from the other branches.


They're made better? Using better materials?



> Ironically, Frost Blades and Axes are power weapons. Whoops!


Thanks again for proving my point that chain weapons are actually capable of being different. Good job sunshine.

Check out the former forge world of Ryza - it's better at making plasma technology than other forge worlds. Why should that, using that most basic modicum of intelligence; logic, therefore be limited to plasma, why not to other weaponry?


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

According to your logic, powerfists, plasma pistols, and boltguns are common amongst NCOs. Your thoughts on this?

And let me be more specific. Give me a specific example of a sergeant that is said to use a powerweapon legitimately his or hers outside of the "he may replace his close combat weapon or pistol for a power weapon for 10 points."

I know you're desperate trying to prove you didn't dig yourself a hole, but at least try to stay logical. A powersword loses its energy source and a chainsword loses its energy source, okay to compare. You can't have a powersword lose its energy source and its edge against a chainsword that just loses its energy source. 

You missed my point about chain weapons as well. The Bloodclaws and Skyclaws use chainswords. You said that those weapons are incredibly different from the ones the IG use. I'd like some explanation. 

And I'm not quite sure where I'm proving your point. Frost Blades and Axes are power weapons. So they are different from normal chain weapons. Bring Frost weapons into the discussion just proves that power weapons are better than chain weapons (as they ignore armor and add 1 strength to the user). And again that power weapons are reserved for the best of the Chapter.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

hailene said:


> According to your logic, powerfists, plasma pistols, and boltguns are common amongst NCOs. Your thoughts on this?


Yes, because I said that.



> And let me be more specific. Give me a specific example of a sergeant that is said to use a powerweapon legitimately his or hers outside of the "he may replace his close combat weapon or pistol for a power weapon for 10 points."


Why, exactly, is that not good enough for you?



> I know you're desperate trying to prove you didn't dig yourself a hole, but at least try to stay logical. A powersword loses its energy source and a chainsword loses its energy source, okay to compare. You can't have a powersword lose its energy source and its edge against a chainsword that just loses its energy source.


Neither do I expect to. Read what I said.



> You missed my point about chain weapons as well. The Bloodclaws and Skyclaws use chainswords. You said that those weapons are incredibly different from the ones the IG use. I'd like some explanation.


You've an incredibly fucking rude way of asking. Lose it.

When I can actually be arsed to deal with someone who refutes everything unless they've seen it with their own eyes, I'll leave you to sit and ponder on your ignorance.



> And I'm not quite sure where I'm proving your point. Frost Blades and Axes are power weapons. So they are different from normal chain weapons. Bring Frost weapons into the discussion just proves that power weapons are better than chain weapons (as they ignore armor and add 1 strength to the user).


Now - you're bringing in rules; I merely used the fact that a Sergeant is capable of taking a power weapon. Not what said power weapon does in a game. There's a big difference.



> And again that power weapons are reserved for the best of the Chapter.


What, you mean like Captain Tarnus Vale? And Ragnar Blackmane? And Gabriel Seth?

So; congratulations, Hailene. Successfully reduced your own threat into "but I know this; but I know that".

The point of having a discussion is to use intelligence, not be a retarded fucking monkey trying to find rhyme and reason in 10 year (?) old book pertaining to an excellent story; when your gripe refers to 10 men with a fucking different load out to what you've read elsewhere.

THIS AIN'T FUCKING LAW SCHOOL.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

You drew the conclusion that any sergeant could whistle up a power weapon because the rules allowed him to. He's likewise able to equip a plasma pistol, bolt gun, and powerfist. So, yes, yes you did say it.

And why is it not good enough for me? Because what the rules allow in a TT army doesn't necessary fit fluff. In fact, there's a fair amount of questions by posters on this very board asking whether certain armies they have in mind are fluffy. 



Vaz said:


> When a power sword loses its power supply and loses it's edge you have a club as well. When a chainsword stops working and loses a few teeth, you have a ragged edged big club. If you cannot believe, then happily fuck off.


What exactly are you trying to go on about? You made an unfair comparison. What's the point?

And I'd like everyone refute everything they haven't seen with their own eyes. This allows us to bring proof to the fore. Now having seen that proof with their own eyes we can better understand the subject we debate about. If everyone believed what they thought because they just did, we'd get no where. 

Clearly you have no interest in structured debate where one side offers proof to back up their position. Quite frankly, I don't know another way to go about this without having a giant shouting match (which you seemed to have already started). I'm not very interested in having one, so for the benefit of the community, me, and of course yourself, I suggest you go elsewhere unless you are able to debate in a more dignified and calm manner. Ultimately it's your choice, of course.


----------



## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Ok so 1st heretic is a 10 year old book.
The Chapter master uses a red power sword.
The Assault squad seargent uses a chainsword.
Power weapons must be earned it's not like they come in a gift bag that's handed out at every birthday part.


----------



## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

DING! DING! DING!

Winner: Vaz!:clapping::clapping::clapping:

And hailene, you want a sergeant that uses a power weapon? I got one, Sergeant Jarran Kell, power fist. You want another? Sergeant Lukas Bastonne, power sword. Two sergeants, two power weapons.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

hailene said:


> You drew the conclusion that any sergeant could whistle up a power weapon because the rules allowed him to. He's likewise able to equip a plasma pistol, bolt gun, and powerfist. So, yes, yes you did say it.


Didn't say they were widespread. Said they were available. Don't be a bell end and twist words.



> And why is it not good enough for me? Because what the rules allow in a TT army doesn't necessary fit fluff. In fact, there's a fair amount of questions by posters on this very board asking whether certain armies they have in mind are fluffy.


Indeed. And in what way are armies not fluffy? Fatecrusher? Hell, the Daemon's are all best buddies these days. Lash Prince+Oblits+PM's? Not exactly unheard of for Chaos to unite for a common cause now, is it? And of course, the one exception to the... wait no, there is none.



> What exactly are you trying to go on about? You made an unfair comparison. What's the point?


In what way was it unfair?
Power Sword loses its edge and becomes blunt, and loses its power supply.
Chainsword loses some teeth, and its power supply. Difference between the two? The Chainsword is still serrated.



> And I'd like everyone refute everything they haven't seen with their own eyes.


The earth is fucking flat. The moon landings were fake. The Space race never existed. You're full of hot air.




> This allows us to bring proof to the fore. Now having seen that proof with their own eyes we can better understand the subject we debate about. If everyone believed what they thought because they just did, we'd get no where.


There's logical extrusion, then there's being fucking anal. 



> Clearly you have no interest in structured debate where one side offers proof to back up their position.


I have no interest in dealing with an arsehole, who refutes sources simply because he disagree's with them.



> Quite frankly, I don't know another way to go about this without having a giant shouting match (which you seemed to have already started).


Shouting match? Mate, you need to live a life if you think I've started.



> I'm not very interested in having one, so for the benefit of the community, me, and of course yourself, I suggest you go elsewhere unless you are able to debate in a more dignified and calm manner. Ultimately it's your choice, of course.


Naturally. In the meanwhile; what is to debate? "Dignified and calm" utter refusal to use what your mother gave you? Mate, I'll leave you to it. In 3 threads I've answered your posts, you've gone away, taken a quote that wasn't perfect to the nanometer of your oh-so exacting standards, and take away much of the joy of 40K fluff, that it's basically a fucking porn book of thread.

You want to read perfect literature, go read the OED.

Lastly - as there's nothing saying that Power Weapons CAN'T be used by a line of Riot Officers in the Arbites, then it's CANON that they can, and are used as such.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

See, that's the kind of proof I'm interested in.

Maybe I should have amended my question. More...common sergeants. As Kell is personal aide and body guard of the Lord Castellan of Cadia and Bastonne is Cadia's posterboy, as well as a noble of Cadia (who probably has more weapon heirlooms than toothbrushes).

Edit: In response to Vaz's post which wasn't there when I started mine.

So power fists, bolt guns, and plasma pistols are available to all guard sergeants? (And it's silly to assume that Arbite sergeants would have the same gear available to Guard sergeants. And clearly unless the entire line of Arbites were sergeants or above, this still doesn't make sense within the context of the story.)

See, you have the powersword losing its edge on top of losing its batteries. A powersword without its power source is a mastercrafted regular sword still. If you were going to have a powersword lose its edge, then you'd have to have the chainsword lose its edges as well. Which turns both weapons in to useless clumps of metal for the most part. Though I'll admit that the chainsword, being heavier, would probably make the better club.

There's ample enough proof that the Earth is round (going back to 200 BC or so. Yes, the idea that sailors thought they were going to sail off the edge of the world is lies). And of course plenty of proof all expect the last you listed as well. Though I think you're being obtuse on purpose.

And there's nothing saying that Space Marines don't use multi-lasers, but by God people hammer Goto for it. Because it doesn't make sense within the established universe.


----------



## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

You guys are free to debate about war-dollies if you like, but can you please leave out the personal attacks and ease up on the swearing a little.
Keep the debate about the topic itself, and not each other.
If neither of you can agree, then at least agree to disagree. Neither one of you are going to change your opinion anyway.


----------



## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

Power weapons as a whole are rare throughout the Imperium. The rarity is relative, if the Imperium wants to equip the arbites with power weapons it will. hence why it might be rarer in other portions of the imperium because of the need to equip them with power mauls. Read the Calpurnia books, execution hour, and nightbringer for more info on arbites. Calpurnia books are about the arbites, execution hour features them heavily, and nightbringer has some excellant parts about the arbites and their leman russ tanks as well as some more standard jobs they might be called to do.


----------



## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

lol, on another note, think of carapace armor in relation to the imperial gaurd, its generally not given in its fully body form to anyone except stormtroopers or grenadiers companies, but every arbites rates a full suit. the imperium is going to give the good stuff to arbites because arbites are what keep the imperium in power, most ig regiments are goign to be shipped off and if they die it doesnt matter cuz there lots more where they came from. but the arbites are going to ensure that there is asteady supply of men, and so they need to be better armed to protect the power structure and ensure there will be people to send off.


----------



## Biellann (Sep 6, 2010)

Anarkitty said:


> The Arbites get shock mauls at lower ranks, and can earn or be issued power mauls at higher ranks. Shock mauls have capacitors and discharge shocks on impact. Power mauls have "power fields" and disrupt solid matter on contact, which allows them to be more useful against armor, as well as doing more damage to "soft" targets. The reason it is a maul (as opposed to a sword or axe) is tradition. It is a badge of office. When the power is turned off, it can also be used to subdue suspects instead of killing them.





hailene said:


> I can't quite find that in my copy of Dark Heresy. No mention of more senior Arbites getting power mauls. In fact, power mauls aren't even listed as a weapon in the game. But I just flipped through it real quick, reading up on the Arbite's description and weapon pages. Could you cite the page so I can find it, please?


In the Dark Heresy: Ascension book, under Melee Weapons (p. 141):
*Ultima-Pattern Arbites Power Maul*
_The power maul of the Adeptus Arbites is as much a symbol as it is a weapon... While rank-and-file arbitrators make do with simple shock-mauls, veteran proctors or the feared Judges prefer to wield something far more impressive._.
It then goes on to describe its two power settings (low = shock maul, high = power weapon).


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Arbites are generally better equipped than Guardsmen, their equipment is higher quality and they are more highly trained. This is in the books and Dark Heresy. The ting is it's a question of degrees. Arbites are better than Guardsmen but not sufficiently better than guardsmen to have any in game effect really. 

On the topic of power weapons, power weapons covers a vast range of weapons of ludicrously differing power levels. It's laid out in Eisenhorn that some power swords are literally just that, swords with a power supply hooked up to them, some are just hilts which become blades more like light sabres. They are all called 'Power Swords' but they are not comparable. The Power Mauls that the Arbities use are literal mauls with power fields around them, very much the lower end of the spectrum.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Well, I'm satisfied. Apparently high ranking Arbites can use power mauls. Still it's a bit odd that an entire line of Arbites had power mauls in "Execution Hour", but at least it's less improbable than I originally thought.

Before I move this thread to the next question I had I'd like one more point clarified. Several people have made the claim power mauls are on the lowend of the scale for power weapons. I'm never heard this before. Could someone cite a source, please?


----------



## Anarkitty (Jul 29, 2008)

hailene said:


> Well, I'm satisfied. Apparently high ranking Arbites can use power mauls. Still it's a bit odd that an entire line of Arbites had power mauls in "Execution Hour", but at least it's less improbable than I originally thought.
> 
> Before I move this thread to the next question I had I'd like one more point clarified. Several people have made the claim power mauls are on the lowend of the scale for power weapons. I'm never heard this before. Could someone cite a source, please?


Not unheard of. Arbites can at least be trained for power weapon use at rank 6, per the Dark Heresy rulebook. They might only be issued such if they really need them or earn them, but they can learn how to use them at the rank of Proctor or Intelligencer.

To compare relative strengths:
Shock Maul ---------------- 1d10 damage / No armor penetration
Chainsword ---------------- 1d10+2 damage / 2 armor penetration
Chainaxe: ----------------- 1d10+4 damage / 2 armor penetration
Power Blade (dagger-sized)- 1d10+3 damage / 6 armor penetration
Power Sword -------------- 1d10+5 damage / 6 armor penetration
Power Maul (full power) ---- 1d10+5 damage / 5 armor penetration
Power Fist ----------------- 2d10 damage / 8 armor penetration
Energy Blade (light saber) -- 1d10+6 damage / 7 armor penetration

So there you have it. A Power Maul is similar in strength to a Power sword, though it isn't quite as good at penetrating armor. The Shock setting mentioned earlier makes it more versatile for apprehending suspects though.
And as we all know, Power Fists are awesome.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I hesitate to draw conclusions from game statistics. They tend to be (at least partially) restricted by game balance.

I mean look at the Great Weapon. Against an unarmored opponent a Great Weapon will deal more damage against an unarmored person than a power sword or power maul.

Or that a Kroot Rifle's shot will do more damage (and has a higher armor penn) than a power weapon.

That is not to say that rulebooks and codices don't have fluff value. The blocks of text they have are useful and tend not to be restrained by game balance (for good or ill).


----------



## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Wait. Great weapons? Are you trying to compare TT rules of WFB with 40k? Or are you talking about the RPG rules? I assume the RPG as to my knowledge there are no special rules for Great Weapons in the 40k TT rules.

Now according to the Rogue Trader Rulebook, the stats of Great Weapons and Kroot Rifles are as follows.

Great Weapon: Damage:2d10(R) Pen:0
Kroot Rifle: Range:110m RoF: S/2/- Damage:1d10(E) Pen:1
Kroot Rifle (melee): Damage:1d10(R) Pen:0

Now at first glance, yes a Great Weapon causes more damage to an unarmored foe. But that is because a Great Weapon is a huge two-handed weapon whereas the power sword is a smaller one handed weapon. It's simple logic as to why the Great Weapon causes more damage against unarmored foes than the power sword. Both the mass of the weapon as well as the ability of the wielder to use both hands with the weapon grants more strength and physical power for the blows. It's basically a hammer vs a sledgehammer. You can hit something faster with the hammer but you don't get the full strength of using both hands that you get with the sledgehammer.

As to the armor pen of Kroot Rifles vs power weapons, I have no idea what you're talking about. In both games, power weapons are significantly better. In the TT, they completely ignore Armor Saves while KR have an AP of 6, meaning they only ignore Armor Saves of 6+. And in melee, KR count only as normal CC weapons. In the RPG, KR have a Pen of 1 (0 in melee) vs the power sword Pen of 6. Now in TT a value of 1 is good but not the RPG which uses different mechanic for AP. In the RPG, it is normal scale with the higher the number the greater the penetration. So in both games, a normal power weapon (whether sword, axe or whatever) have a greater penetration and damage over the Kroot Rifle.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I was using the original Dark Heresy.

Kroot Rifles deal 1d10+5. And I misread the clip and penn columns, whoops. It only has 1 penn and a size 6 clip. 

On closer inspection I realize that many of the weapons have their manufacturing world attached to it. So, yes, a powersword manufactured on Mordian might pennetrate armor better than the listed Power Maul, but a power sword created on another world may not. 

Given the great variation of resources, technological knowhow, and manufacturing methods, it'd be hard to make a sweeping judgment of weapon classes based upon one world's products. 

Plus as game balance the power maul's shocking ability has to be balanced with something else. Perhaps rather than being on the low end, the power maul is a weapon designed to fight against lightly armored opponents?


----------



## Anarkitty (Jul 29, 2008)

The power field makes the weapon more effective against armor, but doesn't help as much against flesh.
I find RPG statistics to be more reliable, because balance is less of an issue. Realistically depicting the weapons is more important, and balance is achieved by rarity and cost.

For the record:
Standard Dagger ----- 1d5 / No armor penetration + Primitive
Power Dagger -------- 1d10+3 damage / 6 armor penetration

Standard Sword ------ 1d10 damage / No armor penetration + Primitive
Power Sword --------- 1d10+5 damage / 6 armor penetration

Standard Greatsword - 2d10 damage / 2 armor penetration + Primitive
Power Greatsword* --- 1d10+6 damage / 6 armor penetration

Quality of manufacturing can vary these values slightly, but these are the averages.

Interestingly, the non-powered great-weapon and powered great weapon actually have basically the same average damage against lightly armored and unarmored targets. Where the powered weapon shines is against heavily armored enemies.
Additionally, the "Primitive" characteristic means reduced damage against any armor more advanced than hides (like Flak), whereas power weapons can destroy non-=power weapons when parrying. The differences are significant.



*_Inquisitor's Handbook_, p. 80: Waller Pattern Mark IV Power Longsword


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

How do we know these are averages? These are just particular weapons created by particular worlds. Where does it state that these are representative of the "average" power weapon of that particular type?


----------



## Anarkitty (Jul 29, 2008)

_Dark Heresy_, p. 127: A Galaxy of Guns

"The Imperium is vast, and among its billions of inhabited worlds there are countless forge worlds, factories, craftsmen, artificers and blacksmiths turning out weapons and armour. As can be imagined this produces a practically limitless variety of makes, patterns and brands. It would be impossible to detail each and every different make of weapon in the Imperium (or even a small fraction of them), so the weapons, armour and equipment in this chapter represent the most common designs and designations."



_Dark Heresy_, p. 126-7: Craftsmanship

"Unless specifically stated, the Craftsmanship of any object is considered Common."


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Anarkitty said:


> _Dark Heresy_, p. 127: A Galaxy of Guns
> 
> "The Imperium is vast, and among its billions of inhabited worlds there are countless forge worlds, factories, craftsmen, artificers and blacksmiths turning out weapons and armour. As can be imagined this produces a practically limitless variety of makes, patterns and brands. It would be impossible to detail each and every different make of weapon in the Imperium (or even a small fraction of them), so the weapons, armour and equipment in this chapter represent the most common designs and designations."
> 
> ...


Sadly, Dark Heresy, the original, does not have power mauls. A "normal" power maul is not in Dark Heresy Ascension, either. Only the Arbites model. The only WH40k RPG that has both power mauls and power swords (Mordian) would be Rogue Trader. Which, interestingly enough, lists both of them as as the same rarity--very rare. 

This has, potentially, sweeping repercussions. Power mauls (as no listed world of manufacture is listed, it could be assumed that this encompses all power mauls) are as rare as Mordian pattern power swords. Assuming that Mordian pattern power swords are not the McDonalds of the WH40k power sword market, that would mean power swords (in all patterns) would be considerably more common (!!!) than power mauls.

Though I chalk it up as power swords in general are "very rare", and not just this one pattern. 

The second quote is taken a bit out of context.I think you misunderstood what they meant by "common". It's not talking about these items being the universal average, but rather they are not of "poor", "good", or "best" craftsmanship. These levels of craftsmanship affect their in game bonuses.


----------



## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Ah but you are forgetting, the rarity is outside the normal organizations of the Imperium, which you fall under in Rogue Trader and to a degree in Dark Heresy. That doesn't mean that power mauls would truly be rare in the organization they are primarily created for.

Plus, those rarities are of the typical Imperial World as guide to the GMs. But when playing both games, our GMs always modify depending upon where we are and contacts we may have. In fact, there are tables for such modifiers in the book. For example, a IG character wanted a chainsword and we were on a large Forge World (one of the Lathes). Now I was a Tech Priest who also hailed from the Lathe Forge Worlds and since he asked me if I could help him out, the GM gave an additional modifier to the rolls to determine if it could be found, how long it would take and what it would cost, simply because I was a Tech Priest from there and I would have a little extra leverage in these matters.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Yes, that's true, but how does that address the issue of power mauls being more common because they are inferior?


----------



## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

It's because the vast majority of power mauls go solely to the Adeptus Arbites. Let's said a Forge World or Hive World creates a hundred power swords and ships them out. Such weapons would end up all over the place, to IG regiments, to Naval officers as a badge of station, to wealthy nobles and crime lords. Of that one hundred, few are going to end up in the same IG regiment. But now let's consider the same thing but with a hundred power mauls. Where are they going to end up? The Adeptus Arbites. Why? A couple of reasons. First, lack the power of other power weapons as we showed above. Second, they're just not as impressive a sight as power swords and the like. That there is a major factor for many of the non-military types that have power swords. To them, they are as much as status symbol as they are a weapon.

As to them being more common, it all depends on the world in question. As I said, the majority of them end up in Arbites and some cases local planetary law enforcement. A major Hive World will have a sizable Arbites force with multiple precincts across the planet while a minor Imperial world may have but one precinct with a hundred men. In the former, power mauls would be far more plentiful (they may even manufacture them there) while the latter would find that weapon exceedingly rare. (perhaps only the senior Arbites having a power maul)

The sheer number of Imperial worlds and their diversity means that how common a weapon or piece of equipment is varies wildly from world to world. What would be consider near impossible to find on world could merely be uncommon but not rare on another.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

That's a very interesting piece of conjecture. Could you cite the source where it says that the majority of power mauls end up in Arbite hands?

And another question: Why produce power mauls if they are inferior? Surely the part that creates the power field on a power maul could be used on a more "powerful" power sword instead?


----------



## Anarkitty (Jul 29, 2008)

hailene said:


> Sadly, Dark Heresy, the original, does not have power mauls. A "normal" power maul is not in Dark Heresy Ascension, either. Only the Arbites model. The only WH40k RPG that has both power mauls and power swords (Mordian) would be Rogue Trader. Which, interestingly enough, lists both of them as as the same rarity--very rare.
> 
> This has, potentially, sweeping repercussions. Power mauls (as no listed world of manufacture is listed, it could be assumed that this encompses all power mauls) are as rare as Mordian pattern power swords. Assuming that Mordian pattern power swords are not the McDonalds of the WH40k power sword market, that would mean power swords (in all patterns) would be considerably more common (!!!) than power mauls.
> 
> ...


In dark Heresy Ascension everything is given a specific pattern or brand for flavor. It states in the main rulebook that you can create your own brands and patterns, and call the listed weapons whatever you like. The main rulebook doesn't give things patterns, Ascension does, that doesn't mean the items are not comparable.

As for taking "common" out of context, I meant it exactly as you clarified it. On the scale of quality, the listed weapons are better than poor and worse than good, which is defined as "common", but could just as easily be called "average" or "normal". The weapons listed are what a weapon of that type is like, barring being of unusually good or bad construction.
In addition to individual weapons possibly being higher or lower quality than usual, I would also posit that certain forge worlds or brands or patterns are higher or lower quality across the board than the average weapon of the same type.

I am happy to also learn from other sources. You mention Rogue Trader lists both a standard power maul and a standard power sword. What are their respective stats? How do they compare in terms of damage and power?


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

You misunderstand. You took the quote from Dark Heresy that all listed weapons represent their most common (and thus average) stats. However, the list does not encompass power mauls and so the quote has little worth in this discussion.

As for the "common" quality, it's there to allow bonuses for "good" or "best" craftsmanship. But on closer inspection, I'll concede that these weapons are galatic averages.

Rogue Trader lists both weapons dealing the same damage while the power sword has an extra tick in armor penetration and the "balanced" attribute, which adds to its ability to parry enemy attacks. The power maul on the other hand has the shocking ability which is particularly effective against less armored opponents.

Certainly the weapons are almost the same for most purposes, but their unique characteristics allow each weapon to shine in certain situations.

And I still await the sources that says that most power mauls go to Arbite units and why they would continue to produce power mauls if they were inferior. Surely the power field generators could be used to create more useful weapons.


----------



## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

hailene: Rogue Trader Rulebook, pg 130:



> Power Mauls are solid truncheon-like rods with a discharge cap at one end, and a hand grip at the other. Controls along the haft allow the user to adjust the energy field’s strength from a mild stunning blast to a heavy force suitable for breaking down reinforced doors. They are popular with the Adeptus Arbites, as well as many senior naval officers as they can be used in a non-lethal capacity when desired.


This pretty much answers both your questions. Power mauls are used by Arbites and other law enforcement groups (both planetary and shipboard) _because_ of their less lethal nature than other power weapons. Normal power weapons are used for war where the goal is to kill the other guys while power mauls are used by the Arbites and enforcers in situations where killing the other guys is not the best outcome. I suppose slavers and other criminals could also use them but the cost and effort to acquire wouldn't likely be worth it when they can more easily acquire normal clubs and truncheons for such tasks.

Anarkitty: I suspect their stats in the RT book are the same as in DH. But just in case:

Power Sword (Mordian) Dam: 1d10+5(E) Pen: 5 Special: Power Field, Balanced
Power Maul (High) Dam: 1d10+5(E) Pen: 4 Special: Power Field, Shocking.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

They are popular among the Arbites, but you made the claim that the almost all go to the Arbites. That question remains unanswered by you (and the quote becomes problematic for you as it says that its popular amongst senior naval officers as well).

Going by the stats, there are a lot of situations, even in war, that a power maul's stunning could be useful. Times when the enemy has little or no armor (behind the lines insurgency, against opponents that use little armor like Orks and Eldar or even Imperial Guard forces). Or when looking for prisoners.

Just because the power mauls have extra features does not make it inferior. In fact, a weapon with a variable power field would probably be harder to create (as other power weapons do not have this feature).


----------



## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

I was a little mistaken in my earlier comment, but still the bulk of power mauls go to law enforcers whether they be the Arbites, planetary enforcers or Naval armsmen. As you pointed out there are some instances in which the IG could use them however would be quite rare for them to get some due to the massive bureaucracy that is the Departmento Munitorum. It's unlikely that the officials the of Departmento Munitorum would see a valid reason for guardsmen to use weapons that are normally used by law enforcers and even if they did, chances are that by the time the mauls arrive, the guardsmen no longer need them.

And when I say that they are more common than power weapons, I mean that you would see more power mauls among a Hive World's Arbites force (which would about the size of an IG regiment) than power weapons among an entire IG regiment.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Well, I feel like this subject has been discussed thoroughly. I'm going to move onto my next question unless you feel like there is something more to be added?


----------



## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

After all this, how can you possibly have another question?


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

We've just been talking about power weapons the last 6 or so pages. The next one touches on their authority. And the final question I have on...well, a surprise.

So I'll take that as a yes and move on!

*SPOILERS FOR THE BOOK EXECUTION HOUR WILL APPEAR FOR THE REST OF THE THREAD*

So in the book "Execution Hour" there is a planet wide evacuation on an Imperial world because a Chaos Planet Killer was going to destroy the world on top of a massive Chaos-fueled rebellion on the world already occuring. It's a rushed affair and only the most important people/materials get off-planet. A fleet of Imperial Navy ships is running escort for the transports when one of the escorting ships, a heavy cruiser, receives a message that a traitor that may have been helped instigate the rebellion may still be on the planet. The acting commander of the heavy cruiser requests to break off escorting the convoy to capture or kill the traitor. The fleet captain refuses his request citing that the extreme risk, the Sector fleet is already badly pressed by the massive Chaos incursion in the sector, the Chaos Planet Killer is running amok and the Imperium needs every ship it can get, and the vital need for escorts to protect the convoy because the vanguard of the Chaos fleet is already in the system and could attack the convoy.

Suddenly the head Arbite of the doomed world walks onto the bridge of the heavy cruiser and basically commandeers the ship. He says that he will take the ship to kill or capture the traitor and that's it, period. The fleet captain changes his tune and wishes the heavy cruiser good hunting and that's the end of that exchange.

Could an Arbite, even such a senior one, commandeer an Imperial Navy vessel in the middle of a battlefield (as fights between Chaos ships and Imperial ships have been going on for weeks within the system), while on a vital mission to protect a planet's most valuable people, artifacts, and machinery, to take part on a mission that the system's ranking Imperial Navy commander just rejected? So quickly and without argument? It literally happened within the space of a couple paragraphs. 

Isn't that some serious conflict of jurisdiction?

Edit: I'm headed off to practice. I'll probably be back in 4 hours or so. Thanks for all that reply.


----------



## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

Short answer, yes. Long answer, probably.

Arbites are judge, jury and executioner with it comes to Imperial Law which extends to each and every citizen of the Imperium, including the officers of the Imperial Fleet. Now when it comes to organizations like the Space Marines, Mechanicus and the Inquisition, it enters a nasty gray area that is hard to say exactly. But keep in mind that this power extends only to matters of Imperial Law. In theory, a high-ranked Arbites could demand that a warship of the Imperial Navy be turned over to them to crush a band of dug in heretics. Though given the situation, it could be argued that his demands were unreasonable and that the man was acting against the best interests of the Imperium and possibly even against Imperial Law.


----------



## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

hailene said:


> *SPOILERS FOR THE BOOK EXECUTION HOUR WILL APPEAR FOR THE REST OF THE THREAD*


You can always use the spoiler tags. 

Delete the "*" from the following line....
[*spoiler]_Spoiler goes here_[/*spoiler]
Becomes...


_Spoiler goes here_


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Yeah, I don't know how these fancy forum functions work. Plus doing it for the rest of the thread would be silly. A warning at the start and no more work for anyone else .

@Akatsuki--I still find it hard that they could take command. Request the services of one, maybe, particularly if it had nothing better to do. But there's generally a clear separation of powers within the organization of the Imperium. Plus, at what rank does a starship captain becomes beholden to an Arbite? Where does an Arbites sergeant fall in the Imperial Navy hierarchy? A regular judge? 

The Arbites are a separate force with their own hierarchy and resources. I don't think the Imperial bureaucracy would condone it.

On the other hand, the Arbites are part of the Adeptus Terra, so maybe that has some clout, but I still find it unlikely that they could take command of, say, a naval capital ship or an IG regiment to hunt down heretics or traitors. Request aid (or perhaps even offer cooperation on their part) but never demand.

Usually in cases like this the Arbites, (at least from the Eisenhorn trilogy and from the Ciaphas Cain series) the Arbites are usually the ones playing second fiddle in a joint operation. I'd make the Arbites something more akin to an alarm dog. Small things they take care of: heretic cells, xeno-philiac groups, ect. When the big boys come out to play, they're usually sidelined and offer advice for the IG and Inquisition.


----------



## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

The Adeptus Arbites are their own organization. There's a tree of the various organizations of the Imperium here.

As to their status over other Imperial officials, I've already stated that they are enforcers of Imperial Law as judge, jury and executioners. Consider them Commissars but on a much, much larger scale. Namely the Imperium as a whole. That comes with a fair amount of fear from the average Imperial citizens. A high ranked Arbites or one with a hard-lined one with an especially big pair could demand the use of the ship to kill those heretics or they'll be violating Imperial Law (which I should point out is rather large and the officers would not be as well versed as the Arbites) and subject to summary judgement. Now the officers could try to argue against this but they know that Arbites trials are almost always brief and almost always a guilty verdict. As a result, the Naval officers would likely chose the lesser of two evils, giving him the one ship to carry out his mission.

Like I said, the short answer to your question is yes, it is possible while the long answer is it could possibly happen.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

He could demand use, but I don't think the ship captain would be beholden to the Arbite.

In the Dark Heresy Ascension it talks about high level Arbites--Judges and Marshalls. It does state that they are able to deal with insurrection and rebellion through "massive forces of Arbitrators". 

It mentions that Marshalls can direct the efforts of Arbites across an entire world. It doesn't mention that the other branches of the Imperium are at its beck and call, unlike, say, the Inquisition. 

Let me reexplain my position. Everyone, barring an Inquisitor or someone of equal clout, is under the watch of the Arbites. That means that a Naval Admiral could find himself on trial by the Arbites. The Arbites do not have direct control of the other branches, however. Different branches can cooperate and pool their efforts, but by no means are the other forces forced to do the bidding of the Arbites.

If you could provide a source that shows Arbites have some overreaching purview over other services in the Imperium, at least for the hunting and execution of traitors and heretics, I would like to see it.

And to you forum lurkers. Yeah, you, the one with the green shirt. Stop lurking and start posting (constructive) posts!


----------



## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Akatsuki13 said:


> As to their status over other Imperial officials, I've already stated that they are enforcers of Imperial Law as judge, jury and executioners. Consider them Commissars but on a much, much larger scale. Namely the Imperium as a whole. That comes with a fair amount of fear from the average Imperial citizens. A high ranked Arbites or one with a hard-lined one with an especially big pair could demand the use of the ship to kill those heretics or they'll be violating Imperial Law (which I should point out is rather large and the officers would not be as well versed as the Arbites) and subject to summary judgement. Now the officers could try to argue against this but they know that Arbites trials are almost always brief and almost always a guilty verdict. As a result, the Naval officers would likely chose the lesser of two evils, giving him the one ship to carry out his mission.


Enforcer Spoilers


Calpurnia admitted to sentencing 2 Naval Captains and is challanged to a duel by another. A Space station captain had to call in the fleet admiral inorder to force her off of his station, then lies about her dishonoring her and challanging her to a duel, but was then beat in the duel by a commisar, when he was out of ways to get around talking to her he spilled his guts, I haven't read what happened to him after that.


----------



## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

hailene said:


> And to you forum lurkers. Yeah, you, the one with the green shirt. Stop lurking and start posting (constructive) posts!


In terms of Hierarchy the Arbities certainly have jurisdiction to enforce Imperial Law over the Navy (though out of courtesy they usually let the Commissariat deal with that). Now with Imperial Law being so complex It's probably illegal to refuse an Arbiter the use of your vehicle/ship to execute Imperial Law. It would almost never happen, but an Arbiter with brass balls could commandeer anything in the Navy because in general people are shit scared of them.


----------



## Anarkitty (Jul 29, 2008)

Justicars and other high-level Arbites can even arrest Inquisitors (or try anyway). For this reason, Radical Inquisitors have to be wary about recruiting Arbitrators.


----------



## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Using real life NP to Arbites in respect, an Arbites counts as being (effectively - the law on this is particularly wordy) the most senior rank or rate in the proceedings relevant.

For example, a Corporal or Leading Hand NP (naval police, RN equivalent of MP) can be ordered by an Above Surface Warfare Petty Officer/Mountain Leader Sergeant to clean their boots, and be a dogs body.

However, should that ASW PO/ML Sgt break the law (break the RoE like shooting surrendering enemies, for example), then that Cpl counts as being a Chief PO/CSM. Theoretically, as the Queen is the Commander in Chief of the British Armed Forces, a Cpl MP would be within his rights to arrest and detain her madge on the basis of the law, and she couldn't order him to release her.

That same thing could be applied here; in which the Arbites Commander is commandeering the ship under the terms that failing to destroy the enemy would be in breach of the Emperor's Law's to destroy the Heretic, blah blah.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Haha, suckers! You guys don't have any sources backing up your stuff! You lose!

Luckily I found some evidence. From Dark Heresy Accession page 70: "Judges are lords of justice who have great powers and sweeping influence within their purview not far below that of an Imperial Inquisitor."

So, in short, probably, yeah, he could do it. It's interesting to see how powerful the Arbites can be. I wonder why there's such a clash in their abilities in other novels.

I'll probably post my last question tomorrow afternoon in case anyone else wants to mince words on this question.


----------



## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

What? You know we all pretty much saying the exact same thing. So what's with the 'Haha, suckers! You lose!' garbage?


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Sarcasm, sarcasm, my friend.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

All right, so here's the last question! Do try to be honest about what you think about this. I'm an argumentative person by nature as well, but do try to think about this objectively. If you think it's a little out of line (like I do) then say so. There's no harm in playing devil's advocate either way, though!



So the Arbites have a deep space vessel. A cruiser to be more specific. A _Strike_ Cruiser to be exact. A Strike Cruiser that is "...constructed in much the same way as the Adeptus Astartes variant..." So they basically have a Space Marine Strike cruiser at their disposal. Odd or no? And please cite your sources! Rhetoric is good. Conjecture is fun to wrap your mind around, but sources are required.


----------



## Anarkitty (Jul 29, 2008)

I don't see any conflict. A Strike Cruiser is a standard vessel, however it is optimized for boarding and landing, and less so for ship-to-ship combat.
This makes it a good ship for Space Marines as that is their primary mission-type, and less good for the Imperial Navy whose primary mission is ship-to-ship combat.
The Arbites are more like Space Marines than Navy as far as their primary mission classification goes (more landings and boarding actions than naval combat), so a Strike Cruiser is the best design if they are going to have a dedicated ship.

No sources, as I don't have any books in front of me. Merely opining about _why_ it makes sense.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Arbites are used to maintain control on the planet they're stationed. Why would they need interstellar ships? If they're traveling between places then they have the Imperial Navy.

Next, there was a reason why the Imperial Army was split. You couldn't have a force that was both a potent ground force and naval force. The separation in power prevented any single man from seceding by himself.

As we've already gone over, the Arbites have access to Rhinos, Leman Russes, and man portable weapons like autocannons and missile launchers with strong personal weapons like power mauls. With powerful space vessels they have all they need to rise up and challenge the Imperium.

The Arbites are never going to be making a land invasion of another planet, I don't see why they need such a powerful ship.

Last note, one of the key jobs the Imperial Navy is to haul around the Guard. Much like the naval arm of the Imperial Army did before it. I couldn't see why the Arbites wouldn't use the Imperial Navy to run around with, too.


----------



## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

I agree with Anarkitty again. The Arbites deal with all kinds of criminals and heretics, including wealthy nobles that possess their own ships (or at least have access to ships). Do you think that they would allow their quarry to escape just because they flee the planet they are on?


----------



## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Akatsuki13 said:


> I agree with Anarkitty again. The Arbites deal with all kinds of criminals and heretics, including wealthy nobles that possess their own ships (or at least have access to ships). Do you think that they would allow their quarry to escape just because they flee the planet they are on?




In the 1st calpurnia book she boards a ship using an arbite cruiser, which it states that the arbites serve on the ship and that it is the precinct, so sounds pretty permanant.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

There's a difference between having a ship capable of following a suspect and a dedicated warship designed for orbital bombardments and planetary assaults. 

Plus the Arbites don't have to be able to do everything themselves. That's the purpose of bureaucracy. Everything is compartmentalized. We've already discovered that Arbites are capable of requisitioning Imperial Navy ships as needed.


----------



## Anarkitty (Jul 29, 2008)

While they may have troops, guns, vehicles and even star ships, the Arbites do not represent a threat to the Imperial government, because there simply arent enough of them, even if there was some chance they may decide _en masse_ that they wanted to take over. It would be like the FBI trying to stage a coup in the US by themselves.

Sure they have Strike Cruisers. The Imperial Navy has *Battleships*. The possible threat is minor (and highly unlikely) and is outweighed by the importance of the Arbites' duties. When a high-value suspect is fleeing a planet, or is on board a reasonably-sized vessel, or is in an entrenched position on a planet, it is nice not to have to wait for the Imperial Navy. That's why the FBI has a small number of tanks and APCs at their disposal, _just in case_.


----------



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

What sort of duties would an Arbites need the power of a Strike Cruiser? Which probably has a crew in the tens of thousands (as the comparable, size wise, Lunar class cruiser has a crew of 95,000 men, as per the Rogue Trader core rule book, page 196). Also, last time I checked, Arbites weren't a force that utilize orbital assaults as part of their doctrine. Why would you need a ship designed for orbital bombardment and assault if you don't need it?

Edit: I actually feel so strongly for this question that I feel that it deserves its own thread. So let's mosey over. I'll name it "Adeptus Arbite Strike Cruiser".


----------

