# Horus heresy



## Warpangel (Apr 9, 2013)

Hi guys, so I started reading the horus heresy not too long back and haven't been able to but the books down ! I've read horus rising, false gods, galaxy in flames, the flight of the Eisenstein, fulgrim, legion, decent of angels and fear to tread. I've hot through these really quickly and just wanting to know if any one can recommend any books to get stuck into ?


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

Well looks like you're pretty much reading them straight through. I'd say you may as well just stick to that route. After reading straight from horus rising through to Fulgrim I had to take a break myself lol.

My favorite so far is Know no Fear.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

The books don't necessarily run in chronological order, but it would probably be best to go by publishing date. My advice is to avoid _Battle for the Abyss_ like it has herpes though. Adds nothing to the series, so you won't be missing out on anything.


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## Chaplain-Grimaldus (Aug 4, 2013)

First heretic, know no fear, thousand sons and prospero burns are my favourites.

It kills me to say this as they are the 2 chapters I play but fear to tread an angels of darkness sucked. As did nemesis.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

Well the Gaunts Ghosts and Ciaphas Cain books are pretty flipping epic!

Just don't get too attached to any of the characters!


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## Warpangel (Apr 9, 2013)

Cheers guys been told that first hieratic is good, and I like the sound of nemesis just because the assassin thing ! But if its shite ill not bother wasting my time ! 
Is there any more with the blood angels in ?


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

Nah just the one that for some reason has got some hate :'( 

I like it, not love, just like


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Hellados said:


> I like it, not love, just like


That's the problem. One of the most popular Legions with the most iconic primarch, that hadn't got any love at all in the series up until then, was gonna have to be one of, if not _the_ best, books in the series. Unfortunately Swallow appears to have been overwhelmed by that fact, or simply wasn't up to it.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

Or it's just the warm up act (I'm a constant optimist) and as a BA player since 1996 believe me I hated the wait for the book 

Such a good series! I'm barely halfway through them tbh I'm not a big reader


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## Warpangel (Apr 9, 2013)

Yeah exactly there fucking primarch gave his life willingly knowing it was gonna happen but they get 1 book well 2 if u count them getting fucked up in horus rising ! 
I think they need to do more ! 
I've been wanting to Read prospero burns. Any one know if that's any good I kinda like the Ida and back ground to thousand sons


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Warpangel said:


> Any one know if that's any good I kinda like the Ida and back ground to thousand sons


_Prospero Burns_ is told from the SW perspective. If you want to read about the TS, _A Thousand Sons_ is the one for you. They are two of the best books in the series.


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## Warpangel (Apr 9, 2013)

Well I've an army of space wolves to so that good thanks sounds good just checked it out online reviews and I think it's gonna be next


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

Have you read the Space Puppy books yet?? Very good read imho


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Read A thousand sons before you read Prospero Burns, it makes more sense that way. PB skips huge bits that appear in ATS. That said you won't be disappointed, A thousand sons is one of , if not the, best in the series, and its only challenged by The first Heretic (and if you can get it) Aurelian IMO

Honestly there are some stinkers in the series (Battle for the Abyss, Promethean Sun), and many books which really divided opinion (Legion, Nemesis and Prospero Burns) but there is a few real gems in the collection and overall is a very good series


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Barnster said:


> Read A thousand sons before you read Prospero Burns, it makes more sense that way.


Seconded. That's the way they were actually written, and where meant to be released within a month of each other if Abnett had not taken ill while finishing it off.


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

Avoid _Battle for the Abyss_. You will never get this time in your life back.

Normally I tell people to skip _Deliverance Lost_ and _Outcast Dead_, but if you liked _Legion_ and _Descent of Angels_ (two others I consider a waste of time), I guess you might like those two as well.


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## Chaplain-Grimaldus (Aug 4, 2013)

No way dude! Legion and deliverance lost were awesome! Really upped my level of respect for the Alpha legion!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Veteran Sergeant said:


> Avoid _Battle for the Abyss_. You will never get this time in your life back.
> 
> Normally I tell people to skip _Deliverance Lost_ and _Outcast Dead_, but if you liked _Legion_ and _Descent of Angels_ (two others I consider a waste of time), I guess you might like those two as well.


I agree that _Battle for the Abyss_, _Deliverance Lost_ and _Outcast Dead_ are piss-poor. But _Legion_ remains the best Heresy novel in my opinion (just a shame that _Deliverance Lost_ undone a lot of the good work that Abnett had done on the Alpha Legion).


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

Legion is too silly for me. It was what took the Alpha Legion from awesome and cool status, to lame.

They were much better when they had been arrogant to the point of trying to perfect their skills on the battlefield, joining Horus because they had no ties to the Emperor, and then began a 10,000 year long guerrilla war, become extremely bitter and tenacious fighters like the 40K equivalent of Special Forces or CIA trainers fomenting rebellions.

Legion started them on the path of being the Mission Impossible Marines who did everything except actually be Space Marines, hiding in plain sight when you're seven and a half feet tall and 500+ pounds (lol) and worse... aliens.










The Cabal is one of the worst ideas in 40K history, and it comes from Legion.

The Alpha Legion: Space Marines not Space Marineing since 2008.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Veteran Sergeant said:


> Legion started them on the path of being the Mission Impossible Marines who did everything except actually be Space Marines, hiding in plain sight when you're seven and a half feet tall and 500+ pounds (lol) and worse... aliens.


I would actually suggest this concept began post-_Legion_. Most notably with _The Face of Treachery_ and _Deliverance Lost_. And I agree that it is an issue, not enough Alpha Legion portrayals have shown them as a Space Marine Legion. Yes they use infiltrators, spy-networks, subterfuge and deception, but in most cases they still engage in massed warfare with hundreds to thousands of Space Marines, drop-pod assaults, vehicle warfare etc. 

But their actions in _Legion_ (leaving overall command with Namatjira, establishing networks, infiltrating their agents, etc) are not unusual. 



Veteran Sergeant said:


> The Cabal is one of the worst ideas in 40K history, and it comes from Legion.


Why do you think that?

Personally, I think that _Legion_ was excellent and captured the nature of the Alpha Legion perfectly. Their subsequent portrayals however (particularly by Thorpe) have been counter-productive and unenjoyable.


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## Chaplain-Grimaldus (Aug 4, 2013)

Again I'm surprised at the lack of love for deliverance lost. I thought it highlighted the epic badassery that Alpha Operatives are able to undertake.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Just as a shout-out for Battle for the Abyss. In the scheme of the HH, it doesn't advance the total plot line and certainly fails in the Primarch-porn ranks. Otherwise, I thought it did an excellent job of showing how representatives from two of the Traitor Legions (WE and TS) worked at joint purpose with the Ultramarines when not directly under the thumb of their own Primarchs and weren't part of the in crowd. On an objective level, both Astares recognize what the WB are doing is wrong and willingly join the fight. The TS seargent Mhotep also gives the other Astares a taste of how necessary the Librarians are against a full chaos incursion.

Finally, in retrospect, Battle for the Abyss is the first taste we get of the breadth and history of the Word Bearer's planning for the Heresy and also the depth that corruption had spread among the Mechanicum. Mechanicum wasn't published for another 5 months and The First Heretic came out TWO YEARS later. In the greater story arc, all the plot lines in Battle for the Abyss are overtaken by the successor novels, but it's the first one out of the gate in a number of avenues.

As a last little edit, Battle for the Abyss also shows just how completely screwed the Ultramarines came close to being at the hands of Lorgar and crew. While Know No Fear shows just how much damage was done to Calth, but for a narrow circumstance in Battle for the Abyss, Guilliman was on the verge of having the heart torn out of the 500 Worlds of Ultramar.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Battle for the Abyss...



It's still shit though. :wink:


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Chaplain-Grimaldus said:


> I thought it highlighted the epic badassery that Alpha Operatives are able to undertake.


In my opinion, it went the opposite. It was a complete reversal of of the warrior-philosophers we saw in _Legion_.

The AL we saw in _Legion_ thought. A lot. Here's a quote from _Legion_ where "Alpharius" talks:

‘I encourage my men to explore the philosophy of bloodshed, lord. I like them to understand the intellectual structure that informs their killing."

And yet in _Deliverance Lost_ we have a whole bunch of Alpha Legion operatives not only betraying the Imperium, but infiltrating and sabotaging one of their brother Legions simply because their Primarch said so.

It made me sad.


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## Chaplain-Grimaldus (Aug 4, 2013)

Possibly but don't forget we don't know the back story, it is said that the alpha legion did their own purging of the ranks, Alpharius even thinks upon it at one point. I am sure a lot o philosophy and deep thought went on prior to action.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Per Jes Goodwin, Space Marines are 7ft tall on average, Alpha Legion are small in stature so they could feasibly mimic humans. 

Loved Nemesis and Legion 
Hated Prospero Burns


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

djinn24 said:


> Per Jes Goodwin, Space Marines are 7ft tall on average, Alpha Legion are small in stature so they could feasibly mimic humans.
> 
> Loved Nemesis and Legion
> Hated Prospero Burns


Alpharius is small in stature for a primarch. The Alpha Legion are regular sized. Unless I've missed something.

Either way, a Space Marine isn't just taller than a normal man, he's ridiculously thicker and wider too, and as we've speculated, and now seen in the latest codex, criss-crossed in scar tissue from all the surgeries. 


Chaplain-Grimaldus said:


> Again I'm surprised at the lack of love for deliverance lost. I thought it highlighted the epic badassery that Alpha Operatives are able to undertake.


Badassery, or, more realistically, silliness. They're _Space Marines_. Not spies and assassins. That's what you have spies and assassins for. The idea that the Alpha Legion can just willy nilly plant fake Space Marines stretches the boundaries of plausibility, and ends up being a kind of ridiculous trope trying to find a way for the Alpha Legion to be "different". Space Marines don't need to be different. They have one purpose. Galactic conquest. That's what they have been specifically engineered for. 

The problem is, TBL took the narrative hook for the Alpha Legion and multiplied it by a thousand. Their original IA, their original Codex:Chaos 2E write-up, etc, talked about how they were always trying to find new ways to beat their enemies on the _battlefield_. They weren't ninjas and superspies. At some point, somebody decided that because in _40K_ they'd taken to guerrilla war, that must have meant that they were always all sneaky spies.

But that's just because they, Abnett included, colossally missed the point. The Alpha Legion fights the way it does in 40K because it _has to_. They've embarked on a 10,000 year long war against a massive enemy. And the only way they can win is by being sneaky. The Alpha Legion _adapted_ to fight a new kind of war. They didn't always fight that kind of war because before the Heresy, there was no reason to. They had endless supply lines, and endless troops, and massive firepower and fleet assets. 

See, that's the thing, Space Marines can have a fun theme. Mongol Marines. Viking Marines. Twilight Marines. Emo-Hoodie Bathrobe Marines. Burny Marines. Etc. But TBL took the Alpha Legion theme of being arrogant and innovative and turned the dial to 11. And they completely ruined their fluff in the process. I mean, I guess it seems "cool" to some people. But it doesn't make an ounce of sense, and it creates another cartoon legion.


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## Warpangel (Apr 9, 2013)

Amazing ! I only wanted to know what a good next book is and we're all in debate about the alphas !


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Warpangel said:


> Amazing ! I only wanted to know what a good next book is and we're all in debate about the alphas !


Welcome to Heresy Online :laugh:


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

So because of a blurb in an ancient codex they, the fluff writers at BL, have it all wrong? 

That's a load of bullshit. Sorry if a Legion isn't all about flexing their huge surgically enhanced cocks and are in their own way unique. 

By your logic Ultramarine should still be a 2nd Founding chapter.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

djinn24 said:


> By your logic Ultramarine should still be a 2nd Founding chapter.


And the Rainbow Warriors and Space Sharks would still be first founding!


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Exactly!


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## Warpangel (Apr 9, 2013)

Ill second then which other legion would use a bunch of human troops as bait and let them get slaughtered ? They've got there own way and its pretty cool and dark


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

Warpangel said:


> Ill second then which other legion would use a bunch of human troops as bait and let them get slaughtered ? They've got there own way and its pretty cool and dark


The word bearers do this ALL the time, especially post isstavaan

I have to be honest I really disliked Legion. marines hiding in plain sight is more than a bit silly. The whole planet and the legion being linked by the hydra is totally unneeded. Similar I disliked Prospero burns, mainly because of the false title, there's very little Prospero in it and actually little burning. It was a character study of the wolves, and while I get some people like them, I think they need to be burnt and purged

As I said before Legion and Prospero Burns seems to be the Marmite of the HH series, you love them or hate them. Deliverance Lost and Nemesis are similar but just not written well enough to have such a strong response.


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## Warpangel (Apr 9, 2013)

Fear to tread has been the best I've read ! All the daemons and a blood thirster getting his ass handed to hims pretty awesome


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## stooge92 (Mar 6, 2008)

*Good Reads*

im a massive BL reader, more into the fluff than the tabletop game

fav books in this series (in no particular order)

first heretic
know no fear
fulgrim
thousand sons
fear to tread
vulkan lives

I dont mind the way they have pitched the Alpha legion as spies (its refreshing), but i concede the point that in pre heresy times they wouldnt have needed stealth tactics. they are giant walking shooting war machines, so any added tactic would be a waste. 

other good reads in the 40k universe include many of the omnibi (omnibuses?) 
- word bearers
- salamanders (new as omnibus, originally tome of fire trilogy)
- ultramarines (i rate the two above over this)
- blood angels 
- night lords (VERY good read)

and then of course you have gaunts ghosts (imperial guard) and eisenhorn/ravenor from abnett, all fantastic reads. 
if youre trying to save money AND get into reading, i would recommend staying away from SM battle books, as they (generally) dont carry stories with any weight in them


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## Warpangel (Apr 9, 2013)

I know I picked up legion of the damned n it was a bag of shit !


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

The only SM battle book I liked and would recommend was Battle for the Fang. Not read the the iron warriors one and that does intrigue me. 

The SM BBs tend to be targeted at a younger audience with huge print and really simplistic story telling. Probably as a way to get people don't know much about 40k into reading BL. The HH series I think are some of the best written BL books alongside the Eisenhorn/ Ravenor series in 40k (see I don't hate Abnett!) and the vampire wars trilogy in fantasty.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

stooge92 said:


> I dont mind the way they have pitched the Alpha legion as spies (its refreshing), but i concede the point that in pre heresy times they wouldnt have needed stealth tactics. they are giant walking shooting war machines, so any added tactic would be a waste.


From what little I understand about the Alpha Legion back story, I could see where they might just opt out of the straight 'shoot-em-up' model of Astares Legion at the time. They were the last legion to be formed and the twins the last primarchs to be found... I've heard it was 20 years before the HH. I've read (without attribute?) the twins were basically Rogue Traders at the time of their discovery by Horus and the Emperor himself didn't have a lot, if any, time for them. Given all this, they had around 180 years to form their own distinct style for working with power and they probably looked at their new Legionnaires as another tool to fit into an established strategic pattern.


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