# So the Grey Knights



## tau112 (Jun 30, 2010)

Hi,
I'v been reading a few rumors and could the Grey Knights own Gene Seed be of the Emperor himself or is this just plain rubbish?


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Plain rubbish the emperor doesn't have a gene seed and the grey knights are recruited from space marines.


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## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

The candidates to become grey knights are actually recruited from the Black Ships making all grey knights have some psychic power. Their gene-seed stock is unknown and im guessing was custom made by the emperor using several sources. But the original grey knights were led by the Eight Grand Masters, 8 Astartes who were gathered by Malcador to train them. Some of them were loyalists from the traitor legions like Garviel Loken(Luna Wolves), Varren(World Eater) and Qruze(Luna Wolves) while others were from the still loyal legions like Librarian Rubio(Ultramarines)


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Im going to assume that the GK gene-seed is actually a melding of the original 8.


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## fynn (Sep 19, 2008)

And also some chapters, who know of the GK send any new recruits that are found to be psychic to the grey Knights as well, and just checking the GK codex, the NEW gene seed carried the "fleash and soul" of the emperor and had no flaws


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

The new codex, when combined with other sources (like the first heretic) imply that the gene seed for the GK's comes from the emperor himself.

The new GK codex states that the custodes are untainted but lack the free will to do what must be done, which is why the GKs are made. In TFH the custodes make the claim that they are the emperors most favored sons. Plus all space marines claim to be "sons" of their respective primarchs.

So while it is never clearly stated that the GK gene seed is directly from the emperor, it is heavily implied within the fluff.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

aboytervigon said:


> Plain rubbish the emperor doesn't have a gene seed and the grey knights are recruited from space marines.


New GK codex:



"Where the other Space Marine Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul. So was each Grey Knight a doughty warrior, his strength, and endurance increased well beyond normal human limatations by the Emperor's gift and then honed further by rigorous training."


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

aboytervigon said:


> Plain rubbish the emperor doesn't have a gene seed and the grey knights are recruited from space marines.


What? No, no, no! The gene-seed of normal Space Marines ultimately comes from one of the Primarchs. You see after the Emperor created the Primarchs and they were scattered across the galaxy, he used their DNA templates to create the gene-seeds of the Space Marines. Each Legion was created after one of the twenty Primarchs. That's why Horus, the first found Primarch was given the Sixteenth Legion rather than the First Legion as the Sixteenth was made from the gene-seed created from him.

As to the Grey Knights, the origins of their gene-seed are unclear but it is indeed rumored that their gene-seed was created from the DNA of the Emperor himself rather than a Primarch. Nor are the Grey Knights recruited from Space Marines. All GK are psykers chosen from the best of the psykers gathered by the Black Ships. And when I say best, I do not mean the psychically strongest but rather those are mentally and physically strong enough to have a chance of enduring and surviving the lengthy and difficult process of becoming a GK.


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## aboytervigon (Jul 6, 2010)

Oh right but still the emperor didn't have a geneseed.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Dude it's pretty well known that the Emperor killed both of the missing Primarchs and ate their gene-seed so he could grow one of his own. That's how he gave it to the GK.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

wow The Emperor Master of Mankind, The holy, the cannible


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## Akatsuki13 (May 9, 2010)

aboytervigon said:


> Oh right but still the emperor didn't have a geneseed.


No, he doesn't have any gene-seed within him. But is only in SM and GK (possibly the Custodes as well but I'm not sure) have gene-seed because it is needed to _create_ them. Gene-seeds are artificial things, no one naturally grows gene-seed. As I said before, the gene-seed of the SM were made from the Primarchs while the GKs' gene-seed is rumored to have from the Emperor rather than the Primarchs.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The concept of the gene-seed is irrelevant. It's simply a way of explaining the lineage passed on to the Astartes from their Primarch and the Primarchs to their Father/Emperor. 

Ultimately, all the Astartes carry the blood of the Emperor within them but as Erebus said in the First Heretic, it's become diluted and tainted due to mass production and chemical additions while the Custodes are more purer in their relation to their Emperor due to their rarity and the differences in how they are made and of course the Primarchs having the purest relation to their Father.

It's basically glorified DNA but in organ-form to more easily explain how the organs of the Astartes came to be and how they function and how the different lineages (Russ's Wolf-like DNA, Sanguinius's red-thirst/black rage, etc. and other mutations that have popped up due to various reasons) of the Primarchs has survived for thousands of years and how it can get transferred to a new person via surgery.

It also serves as a way of showing how limited the Astartes are in that if they just needed the DNA of their Primarch, they could easily mass produce them but instead of DNA, rely on gene-seed, a physical organ that isn't easy to replicate (all attempts by the Imperium post HH have resulted in mutations, absolute failures, or very rare success but even then their successes have resulted in mutations like not having the bletchers gland, etc.)

So with the GK, they like the Custodes, have a pure, untainted tie to the Emperor and their transformation process from human to superhuman probably differs than regular Astartes in some ways but is the same in certain areas like their need for recruiting worlds where they pick up psychically talented and tough young boys to transform. 

I would argue that they are made in a very similar fashion to the Custodes but as it is mentioned somewhere in the GK codex, the Custodes lack the 'free will' displayed by Astartes amongst other things and they are confined to their guardian role while the Astartes are not hence the Emperor's decision to create them during the closing hours of the HH where he knew that if he were to perish, these guardians would have to take over his role as an aggressive suppressor of Chaos taint all over the Imperium.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Before the release of the current codex is was a 'well known' but not entirely supported 'fact'.

However the new codex puts it in black and white:

_the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul._

Basically - they had new gene-seed created for them directly from the emperor.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

It doesn't make it any clearer than it did before, it doesn't actually say they have the Emperor's gene seed, only that the gene seed contained part of the Emperor.
Its still perfectly possible that the new gene seed was made from the original loyal traitors, Garro, Loken etc. and infused with something from the Emperor to ensure its purity.
The Emperor created the Primarchs with his own DNA, from them he created the gene seed to create the Astartes, He does not have a gene seed.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> The Emperor created the Primarchs with his own DNA, from them he created the gene seed to create the Astartes, He does not have a gene seed.


I dont think anyone is saying he does have 'a gene seed' - however none of the primarches innately had a gene seed, one was created for them and that was what was passed on to their followers.

It is clearly stated here that their gene seed contains the emperors own genetic material - ergo, they have the emperors 'genetic' seed.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

What I was also trying to get across is that it doesn't say that the genetic code was exclusively that of the Emperor's, merely that it was there.
All gene seed contains part of the Emperor's genetics, statingthat the GK's does too is hardly news.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Clearly Alpharius's twin brother Omegon could be the father of the Emperor because it doesn't state who the Emperor's father is. So it could be him.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> What I was also trying to get across is that it doesn't say that the genetic code was exclusively that of the Emperor's, merely that it was there.
> All gene seed contains part of the Emperor's genetics, statingthat the GK's does too is hardly news.


Well it evidently is, otherwise the quote from the GK wouldnt make sense. If all gene seed direcly carried the emperors genetic material then the quote would be retorical.

The gene seed was created, buy the emperor, using portions of his own genetics (note portions) so each primarch was a representation of a portion of him.

Then the gene seed was given to his follows so they were a lesser representation of their primarch.

This isnt so for the GK, they have no primarch and their gene seed is explicitly NOT from existing stock and is NEW and comes from the emperor.

Im not sure how you are missing this...


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Maidel said:


> Well it evidently is, otherwise the quote from the GK wouldnt make sense. If all gene seed direcly carried the emperors genetic material then the quote would be retorical.
> 
> The gene seed was created, buy the emperor, using portions of his own genetics (note portions) so each primarch was a representation of a portion of him.
> 
> ...


Maidel are you questioning the fact that Omegon could be the Emperor's father? 

If so, I challenge you to a duel. Name the pub that shall be our battleground.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

It may be that the Geneseed for the GK is a fusion of what is used for the Custodes, 'the Emperor's flesh', fused with some part of his psychic power, 'the Emperor's soul', to keep it pure in the face of Daemons.
The reason I come to that conclusion is that, during the time the GK are being founded, the Imperium isn't really in the position to be producing a whole new lineage of Genseed, especially seeing as the Emperor is busy fighting off Daemons in the IMperial Dungeon to oversee the work. Really, does anyone think that the Emperor would allow such an important job to be done without his direct input? So, he has to take something 'off the shelf' so to speak. In the case of the exisitng Geneseed, it has become apparent that there are flaws- the Emperor doesn't know how far this goes; yes, he has loyal sons and Legions, but there is no gaurantee that they will stay loyal. So the Custodes Geneseed offers that surest route to a readily available, seemingly non-corruptible source.
On top of that, the Emepror knows that each GK will be psychic and there main purpose is to fight the forces of Chaos and the Daemonic. So, to add to the purity of the Custodes Geneseed, he manipulates it psychically, adding to the protection afforded the GK by their training. The freedom of action the GK have over the Custodes may have more to do with how they are trained and the traditions that are formed within Chapter 666.
Of course, this is pure supposition, but looking at the circumstances in which the GK were Founded, and taking what has been said in the new GK 'dex, then it seems to hold together.

GFP


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Well it evidently is, otherwise the quote from the GK wouldnt make sense. If all gene seed direcly carried the emperors genetic material then the quote would be retorical.
> 
> The gene seed was created, buy the emperor, using portions of his own genetics (note portions) so each primarch was a representation of a portion of him.
> 
> ...


I'm not missing anything, I'm just saying that what is written is not as clear cut as everyone seems to think. 
It says that the gene seed is new, I get that.
It says that the gene seed contains something of the Emperor, I get that too.

What it doesn't say is that the new gene seed is made from the Emperor's genetic code alone.


I'm not sure how you're missing this....


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> The reason I come to that conclusion is that, during the time the GK are being founded, the Imperium isn't really in the position to be producing a whole new lineage of Genseed, especially seeing as the Emperor is busy fighting off Daemons in the IMperial Dungeon to oversee the work. Really, does anyone think that the Emperor would allow such an important job to be done without his direct input? So, he has to take something 'off the shelf' so to speak. In the case of the exisitng Geneseed, it has become apparent that there are flaws- the Emperor doesn't know how far this goes; yes, he has loyal sons and Legions, but there is no gaurantee that they will stay loyal. So the Custodes Geneseed offers that surest route to a readily available, seemingly non-corruptible source.


He created them during the HH.



Malus Darkblade said:


> _Hence the Emperor's decision to create them during the closing hours of the HH_ where he knew that if he were to perish, these guardians would have to take over his role as an aggressive suppressor of Chaos taint all over the Imperium.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> I'm not missing anything, I'm just saying that what is written is not as clear cut as everyone seems to think.
> It says that the gene seed is new, I get that.
> It says that the gene seed contains something of the Emperor, I get that too.
> 
> ...


At which point did I ever say it was? :wacko:

In fact, I would be surprised if the gene seed was entirely the emperors own genetic code - firstly it wouldnt account for a lot of the changes that are apparent in marines, as far was we know the emperor doesnt have things like a black carapace, or fused ribs, nor can he, as far as I know, spit acid.

Therefore a lot of the geneseed and other implanted organs are most likely entirely 'artifical' genetic code.

What we can say is that it is definatively NOT built on any pre-existing stock, thus, none of the primarches geneseed is used in this new one - it specifically states this:

_Where the other Space Marine Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that had gone before_

This has never been explicitly stated before in any previous publications.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

@Malus. I'm not sure what you're saying, mate. I know the GK were created during the HH, but what I'm getting at is that this apparently 'new' Geneseed that was used is unlikely to have been created entirely from scratch; there isn't the time for such huge amounts of research to do so, and the resources are being used in more important areas. Let's remember that the Legions could only be built so quickly in the face of the loss of the Primarchs because the Primarch Project was left with the genetic blueprints to work from. A new Geneseed won't have a Primarch to work from, and I doubt the Emperor would work from the already existing Legion stock if only because they have proven to be horribly flawed- if not in toto, at least in part.
So, to get around this he would use Geneseed-stock that has something superior the 'normal' Geneseed- Custodes. This works because it's more readily available than Geneseed that has to be made from scratch, although it's probably still rare at the start; it also works because of the proven loyalty of the troops derived from it. Doing something psychic to the Geneseed, then, would make sense as it's just about all the Emepror would have time to do. It might be possible, in the future, to keep this process going by keeping unused Genseed in proximity to the Golden Throne. But that's getting off the point.
What I was trying to get at was what this 'new' Genseed might be. I don't think it's entirely new, rather it's a derivation of the Custodes Genseed with psychic modifications. I could be wrong- I could have misunderstood what you were saying.

GFP


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## Karak The Unfaithful (Feb 13, 2011)

> Oh right but still the emperor didn't have a geneseed.


a chapter's geneseed is made from their primarch/founding chapters DNA right? and everyone has DNA.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

normtheunsavoury said:


> I'm not missing anything, I'm just saying that what is written is not as clear cut as everyone seems to think.
> It says that the gene seed is new, I get that.


Exactly, new. As in, not one of the twenty Primarchs'.

Thus, even assuming he had the practice of creating a Primarch down and could do so in short order (remember, it took centuries the last time around), the Emperor would still no longer would be able to enter into pacts with the Ruinous Powers that were necessary to bring a Primarch to being.

Thus, with no new Primarch to draw from, and when the text specifies the Emperor as the only *stated* influence on said Geneseed, I'm curious to hear your proposals on where this new material comes from.



> What it doesn't say is that the new gene seed is made from the Emperor's genetic code alone.


See above. "New" disqualifies existing sources. The rift with Chaos precludes the creation of new Primarchs to serve as intermediaries for the creation of Geneseed. The Emperor was the source material (well, that and his technological/occult genius) for what made the Primarchs special.

Absent other Primarchs and with only the Emperor listed (and assuming the text in question isn't meant in the oft-seen 40k "history turned to mythology over 10,000 years" vein), I'm curious (in an honest, not snarky way) to hear what other proposals are out there. 

See below for my thoughts on that.



Maidel said:


> In fact, I would be surprised if the gene seed was entirely the emperors own genetic code - firstly it wouldnt account for a lot of the changes that are apparent in marines, as far was we know the emperor doesnt have things like a black carapace, or fused ribs, nor can he, as far as I know, spit acid.


Then again, neither did the Primarchs, apparently.



> What we can say is that it is definatively NOT built on any pre-existing stock, thus, none of the primarches geneseed is used in this new one ...


My personal belief is that* the Grey Knights are a continuation of the Geneseed of those eight original masters of their Chapter, refined and re-tooled by the Emperor as to be essentially unique from that of their Primarchs and refined to a whole new standard.

* Assuming it's *not* the Emperor coming up with a new strand of Geneseed from his own genetic material as opposed to that of the Primarchs (something that I believe he could do in short order, as the process is potentially known already--see Custodes--and less challenging/time-consuming than that of creating a Primarch) ...

Cheers,
P.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Exactly, new. As in, not one of the twenty Primarchs'.


Im with you all the way through, nodding all the time and then you say this:



> My personal belief is that* the Grey Knights are a continuation of the Geneseed of those eight original masters of their Chapter, refined and re-tooled by the Emperor as to be essentially unique from that of their Primarchs and refined to a whole new standard.


How is that not a contradiction?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Well, for one, because it comes attached with that asterisk. That is, UNLESS the Emperor DID create a whole new Geneseed from himself (which is what I believe the Codex is implying), this is my personal take on a feasible way to come up with a "new" Geneseed: the Emperor taking the eight masters' Geneseeds, scrubbing them clean, adding some of his own "mojo", and thus, for all intents and purposes, creating a "new" type.

But, again, that's if the Emperor didn't do what I think the Codex is saying he did: skip the Primarch middle-man and create new Astartes Geneseed via his own flesh/DNA code/whatever--kind of like he did with the Custodes (I would imagine) before. 

Cheers,
P.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> But, again, that's if the Emperor didn't do what I think the Codex is saying he did: skip the Primarch middle-man and create new Astartes Geneseed via his own flesh/DNA code/whatever--kind of like he did with the Custodes (I would imagine) before.
> 
> Cheers,
> P.


Well seeing as the wording specifically says it DOESNT come from an existing source, thats the only remaining possibility....


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

No disagreements there. Like I said, I threw the other one out there as a qualifier.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

It depends on the context of the word *new*. 
New as in completely made from scratch, brand new crafted ingredients all put together to make something brand new.
OR.
Existing ingredients, possibly from the founding members, reworked with extra bits added to make something new.

In the same way as I could take five or six minis or kits, cut, drill, green stuff, pin and glue and make something *new*.
They may be old parts but put together they become something new, an improvement on what they were and greater than the sum of their parts.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Why is it such a struggle to believe that the GK's gene-seed came straight from the Emperor and him alone and is brand new? There are a billion more things that are harder to grasp.


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## DestroyerHive (Dec 22, 2009)

Okay, That's Enough!

Let's settle this debate over the Grey Knights' gene seed once and for all. Their primarch is none other than Chuck Norris himself k:k:.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> It depends on the context of the word *new*.
> New as in completely made from scratch, brand new crafted ingredients all put together to make something brand new.
> OR.
> Existing ingredients, possibly from the founding members, reworked with extra bits added to make something new.
> ...



Because it's specifically says that unlike the other chapters whoes gene seed come from those sources, this doesn't and is new and comes from the emperor. It's a very straight forward sentence, I'm really not sure how you can misconstrue it so much.


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## tau112 (Jun 30, 2010)

umm it's not getting any clearer what gene seed.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

tau112 said:


> umm it's not getting any clearer what gene seed.


'Gene Seed' are not this 'natural' thing that just appeared in the first 20 primarches and that just happened to be used in their legions.

The gene seed is a genetically engineered cluster of organs and glands that allow a space marine to be transformed into a superhuman (along with the other organs and bits).

It is created by man (in this case the emperor/macador) and inplanted.

The Grey Knights Gene seed is NOT from the 20 primarches, it is new and it contains material directly from the emperor.

Which bit arent you getting?


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

tau112 said:


> umm it's not getting any clearer what gene seed.


As some folks have noted, there's some confusion over this because of the terminology being used. But, back to basics: 

Gene-seed is/are found in Space Marines, and only in Space Marines. They're artificially created biological organs, implanted into adolescent human males, as part of the surgical procedures to reshape them at the genetic level to turn them into Space Marines. 

None of the primarchs had gene-seed in their bodies. Their genetic material (DNA, or whatever else) was used by the Emperor to create gene-seed. The Emperor then used this gene-seed to create the Space Marine Legions, by implanting it into human males.

When a Space Marine says "I am of Rogal Dorn's gene-seed", they don't mean they have gene-seed from Rogal Dorn inside them, they mean that their Chapter's gene-seed was originally created and grown in a lab, using Rogal Dorn's DNA.

There is one Chapter that claims no biological descent from the twenty primarchs. The Emperor didn't use primarch DNA when he made their gene-seed. He used his own DNA to make the gene-seed organs.

It means, in the literal sense, that the Emperor of Mankind is the primarch of the Grey Knights.

(Apparently.)


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

:goodpost:

No arguements from me, very well put.


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## tau112 (Jun 30, 2010)

I know what a gene seed is it comes from the space marines primarch. I mean what is the grey knights?


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

tau112 said:


> I know what a gene seed is it comes from the space marines primarch. I mean what is the grey knights?


It's not from the primarches and it contains the emperors own material.

Therefore, it's the emperors.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

tau112 said:


> I know what a gene seed is it comes from the space marines primarch. I mean what is the grey knights?


Dude. Really?



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> There is one Chapter that claims no biological descent from the twenty primarchs. The Emperor didn't use primarch DNA when he made their gene-seed. He used his own DNA to make the gene-seed organs.
> 
> It means, in the literal sense, that the Emperor of Mankind is the primarch of the Grey Knights.


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## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

Haven't gotten around to listening to the most recent audiobooks but do they ever state anything that contradicts the latest codex when it comes to the geneseed anyway? From what I garnered Garro & Co. were only brought into to lead and mentor the first generation of Grey Knights.


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