# 40K is a kids game



## IadUmboros (Aug 9, 2010)

For children aged 10 or over. More or less. 

So why so much moaning on this site about "the gold old days" when Games Workshop didn't target games at their kids? It seems to me many posters on here (although to be fair, this is the internet) are incredibly deluded. I'm just returning to the hobby after a long break, and I find the resources here great. But on nearly every page there's someone spouting off against GW about something or another, and the "Gold old days" seems to be one of the most popular. I've just seen in on another thread, and 2 posts later it was quoted back with:

:goodpost:


I bought Warhammer 40K: Rogue Trader and started playing when I was 11, in 1989. GW were more than happy to sell it to me, and all the models I wanted to go with it. Obviously that wasn't the beginning for GW so maybe I'm missing something: at what point did GW *not* design their games for kids?

I'd actually like all of you to bitch over this thread and get it off your chests, so I can read other threads in peace.

Cheers
Umboros.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I started in the beginning of year 6, so that was when I was... ooh, 11. Same as you. I liked the models and stuff at 10, but never really got any stuff. At my local GW the store manager knows me and asks what I've been up to (He was interested in hearing about my bravado-filled tales of Hobby Camp), so I'm obviously not held in disdain by anyone there. What I don't like is the five and six year olds who have everything bought for them, and then don't speak or make any real attempt at communication in the store. They just kinda stand there not doing anything while the rest of us build models and paint and stuff.

I'm fine with anyone who can give me a good game played wth models that have even ten minutes' worth of paint on them (I hate fighting an army that's just black primer with red eyes and blood red shoulder pads. 'What colour will the be eventually?' I ask, across the gaming table, and they look at me like I'm stupid and say 'They're finished, they're my homemade chapter' :ireful2::angry. Whatever age (Reasonably, 9 is my minimum because below that they obviously don't buy there own models)

Midnight


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## WinZip (Oct 9, 2010)

I've always thought that warhammer was a game for anyone as long as you know what your about. Even the people that speak of the "good old days" probably started in there teens at the latest.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Precisely. Damn, you said what I wanted to say in a tenth of the words. Curses!

Midnight


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

I only remember the good old days because at least when I started 14yrs ago the rules and games available were far superior to what we have now.

you had kids playing mordheim, inquisitor, necromunda, BFG as well as 40k.

but todays generation of kid players are so dumb they would struggle to spell BFG, and GW cater to that, sine morons have wallets easier to open.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> but todays generation of kid players are so dumb they would struggle to spell BFG, and GW cater to that, sine morons have wallets easier to open.


Bieber fever.

That is what this next generation sought as the champion towards free will and equal rights.

I wish we could vote to just stop them from having any opinions whatsoever.


But yeah 40k is basically a kiddy game now with cool models.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I really love Necromunda but GW (Whom we love and hate in equal measure) will not let you play with their own products in their own shops. Bastards.

Midnight


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I have nothing against kids playing 40k its just when they start tailoring the hobby to make them and there parents happy that I get annoyed. Remember the old sexy daemonettes, and the bare breasts? Well they where to sexy, so now we get hideous insect fish wife's, so as not to offend western parents who are fine with the idea of someone getting their head turned into red mist, but will start a damn flame war if something attractive is naked.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

LordWaffles said:


> Bieber fever.


oh god, if GW ever made a model based off him we know things would be getting worse and would never get better.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> I have nothing against kids playing 40k its just when they start tailoring the hobby to make them and there parents happy that I get annoyed. Remember the old sexy daemonettes, and the bare breasts? Well they where to sexy, so now we get hideous insect fish wife's, so as not to offend western parents who are fine with the idea of someone getting their head turned into red mist, but will start a damn flame war if something attractive is naked.


HE SAID NAKED. GET HIM WESTERN PARENTS!


Oh but gore entrails murder and explosions, those are fine.


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## Master WootWoot (Oct 17, 2010)

I agree with you that when i am starving (not really) to get the money to buy my own models, and when i sit on GW, bored painting them up, some kid brings his parents to buy him a space marine megaforce! I facepalm and when his parents are at another place, investigating the hobby centre, i ask him what colours he's gonna paint them!

He either says "The blue ones" or something else! I try to convince him to convert grey knights or make an own chapter, he just says "I want them to be blue!"

He either paint them to a horrible standard, not practicing, or he makes his dad paint them!

I started buying my own model (a slann) many years ago, when i was 9 (?). I fastly advanced in painting skills and now i am pretty good! I even take painting missions for people to earn money! It's pretty fun!


Damn ultrasmurfs!


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> I only remember the good old days because at least when I started 14yrs ago the rules and games available were far superior to what we have now.
> 
> you had kids playing mordheim, inquisitor, necromunda, BFG as well as 40k.
> 
> but todays generation of kid players are so dumb they would struggle to spell BFG, and GW cater to that, sine morons have wallets easier to open.


Really you had kids playing those games when you started age 8? That's amazing considering none of them except Necromunda would be released for another 2 (Mordheim), 3 (BFG), or 5 (Inquisitor) years. Bravo on managing to find the pre-pre-pre Alpha play test group.

I remember the good old days of 3rd edition...oh wait, 3rd edition was shit- I remember the game fondly because I played and collected with some of my best friends, but the rules and the models themselves were a pile of turds compared to what we get these days.

Of course FW released Aeronautica as a new game relatively recently, it doesn't seem that intellectually limited...hmm I'm thinking it's just the people in your area Stella- obviously there's something in the water affecting people, how else do we explain your unremitting disdain for all of humanity?



LordWaffles said:


> HE SAID NAKED. GET HIM WESTERN PARENTS!
> 
> 
> Oh but gore entrails murder and explosions, those are fine.


According to South Park they're great...as long as there isn't any swearing!


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Oh, yes, let's let our ten-year-old son gun down innocent civilians in Call of Duty *spit* or listen to Lee Evans Big Live at the 02 (Funny but hardly appropiate) but oh no, he can't have those Harpies THEY'VE GOT BOOBS ON 'EM.

Midnight

Edit: At least Morathi hasn't had a model change. That model is the very essence of what a Dark Elf sorceress should look like. C'mon, even the background says they don't wear much. Dark Elves are like that, and if you don't like depravity and torture then go back to your Black Ops or your other Call of Duty games and mow down some people who have done no wrong. Parents, I hope your happy when your kid says 'This is fun, I'm gonna be a terrorist when I grow up!'. You doomed us all, pricks.


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

They should make a Bieber model for the game and have special rules for it. One could be if you kill this model you automatically win the game no matter the conditions. In addition your opponent who dared to play the model must grant in a formal document all sexual rights to his girlfriend and/or wife, in the case of girls' their sisters and/or mothers (in hindsight the guy would probably have a boyfriend and/or husband so in that case sisters and/or mothers or any hot cousin, aunt or other applicable female relative).

On the topic: Warhammer in the beginning catered to hobbyist. People who were into model making, scenery design, woodworks, etc etc. Now because many of these hobbies dealt with tools and equipment that you either needed a skilled hand or perhaps be over the age of 18 to operate the game gave the impression it was aimed at adults, eventhough children were allowed to play. Infact on the models up until 3rd edition it actually had an age 13+ stamp on the packages. The metal models were actually made of lead and it was advised to wash your hands immediately after handling. There also wasn't a model for every unit or character and you were encouraged to scratch build your own, sorry not an easy feat for an eleven year old. So there were signs pointing the game in the general direction of adults.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

I dunno, I've been playing this game for a good six years or so, ever since I was nine. I must say, 4th edition was better than 5th IMO, even if 5th was geared more toward younger players.

I think some of the things that 'kidify' the game (or rather, make it simpler) are kidna stupid. I'm no stereotypical kid gamer, either.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Baron Spikey said:


> Really you had kids playing those games when you started age 8? That's amazing considering none of them except Necromunda would be released for another 2 (Mordheim), 3 (BFG), or 5 (Inquisitor) years. Bravo on managing to find the pre-pre-pre Alpha play test group.


obviously I'm refering to when they were released, but I started at 8.

but then I'm sure you could of figured that out with a little brain power.


VanitusMalus said:


> and in addition your opponent who dared to play the model must grant in a formal document all sexual rights to his girlfriend and/or wife


considering most peple with a bieber model would be 10-15 your being handed over there 10-15yr old girlfriend for sex.....I don't think thats legal.....but morally still more acceptable than liking bieber.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

VanitusMalus said:


> it was advised to watch your hands immediately after handling.


How would that help in the slightest?

Midnight


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> According to South Park they're great...as long as there isn't any swearing!


GOD FORBID WE HATE THE ENEMIES OF MANKIND WITH MEAN WORDS.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

Come one guys its the 41st millenium, there is only war, and humanity is on the edge of destruction. I think we deserve a little swearing, amirite?

And there is almost nothing morally right with liking bieber. ALMOST NOTHING


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## VanitusMalus (Jun 27, 2009)

@MidnightSun: You missed the edit "wash"

@Stella: The reference was aimed at adults, but in this thread about "kiddies", point taken.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

IadUmboros said:


> For children aged 10 or over. More or less.
> 
> So why so much moaning on this site about "the gold old days" when Games Workshop didn't target games at their kids? It seems to me many posters on here (although to be fair, this is the internet) are incredibly deluded. I'm just returning to the hobby after a long break, and I find the resources here great. But on nearly every page there's someone spouting off against GW about something or another, and the "Gold old days" seems to be one of the most popular. I've just seen in on another thread, and 2 posts later it was quoted back with:
> 
> ...


Actually no your wrong, Games workshop core games are quite clearly marked *12 TO ADULT* , all the model kits are recommended for 12+.
This indicator is that the games are designed with a broad spectrum of age groups in mind from 12 years up its not an indicator that they are aimed at children.

I accept that people are prone to reflecting on the good old days, but like many veterans, people believe the hobby was better when they got into it or that it was cheaper,or the rules worked better or were less dumbed down. 

And if your going to find forums like this an enjoyable place to be then your going to have to accept that people will bitch about the most stupid things to do with this hobby, some of the posters in this forum will post something purely to have an opposing opinion to yours even though they agree with you.

You will also find an undercurrent of anti GW sentiment on forums, because people are never going to be happy with what GW do because the gamers look at the hobby from the point of view of the gamer, GW look at the hobby from the point of view of a company and those two opinions about the hobby differ a lot.

I will say this post made me take a second look at the list of posts in this section of the forum and 3 out of the top 5 were pretty negative. food for thought maybe


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

:goodpost: XD


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## ROT (Jun 25, 2010)

I don't think any games people associate with Kids are actually for Kids.. 

Me and my mate play Yu-Gi-Oh every once in a while; it's much more fun when you're smarter, opposed to being like 11, becomes more about tactical skill - The same with Warhammer. Takes practice to get good at; I think anything that requires thought and practice; is way above 'Kids'.

I think that mental-train makes sense, I'm sure you get the drift of what I'm saying.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

*Shrug*

As B&K said it's not strictly a kids game. GW are in it to sell product so a broad base of appeal is better for business. It is what it is. 

It was disappointing to know at the advent of 3rd edition that the main reason for the change was to lower in age the possible range of players and improve sales demographics. Better sales demographics wasn't necessarily the best thing for the people who even then were longtime gamers and supporters.

It is what it is.


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## aquatic_foible (Mar 17, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> I accept that people are prone to reflecting on the good old days, but like many veterans, people believe the hobby was better when they got into it or that it was cheaper,or the rules worked better or were less dumbed down


that doesn't just apply to the hobby..._everything_ seems to have been better when we were younger. i'm forever exposed to pub conversations about how music used to be better in "the good old days, how films, cartoons, and television were all better in "the good old days"...it's the nature of getting older in life - looking back at your past experiences through rose-tinted glasses and whatnot.

upon my return to the hobby, i have found that while things have been geared towards making the core games more accessible to a wider [i.e. younger] audience, there is still more than enough nuance and tactical nous involved in said games to provide more than enough appeal to the older, "veteran" gamer. i've seen numerous "kiddies" have their armies wiped off the board by an older player with years of experience and a well-crafted list...

and, as an aside - BFG, Mordheim, Necromunda, and Bloodbowl haven't gone away...at my gaming group they still have a "cult" following. we play all the time - heck, we even busted out a game of Space Crusade last week. and it was awesome. but not because it's a phenomenal game, but because of the nostalgia that surrounds it.

maybe i'm rambling at this point, so i'll sum up with this. people will always come to the internet to vent and spill bile [about everything...and share pornography!]. and it's not that the gw products are _worse_ today, it's just that we've all become grumpy old men [and women]... :biggrin:


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

IadUmboros said:


> For children aged 10 or over. More or less.
> 
> So why so much moaning on this site about "the gold old days" when Games Workshop didn't target games at their kids? It seems to me many posters on here (although to be fair, this is the internet) are incredibly deluded. I'm just returning to the hobby after a long break, and I find the resources here great. But on nearly every page there's someone spouting off against GW about something or another, and the "Gold old days" seems to be one of the most popular. I've just seen in on another thread, and 2 posts later it was quoted back with:
> 
> ...


This forum, like all other forums is here for everyone involved in the hobby. We don't censor negative comments, we don't cherish positive comments. Its a fair representation of the hobby as a hole.

Long may it continue, when discussion becomes a circle jerk of agreement it tends end.

Drama! Obstacles! Conflict! keeps it interesting and worth reading.

Thanks for your comments though :grin:


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## IadUmboros (Aug 9, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> Actually no your wrong, Games workshop core games are quite clearly marked *12 TO ADULT* , all the model kits are recommended for 12+.
> This indicator is that the games are designed with a broad spectrum of age groups in mind from 12 years up its not an indicator that they are aimed at children.


Agreed, and I delierately went for a inflamatory thread title to stir the debate. That said, I would view anyone under the age of 16 as a child. My point is I don't think that GW are targetting children much younger than this today for their game systems. But you're right in that the game does appeal to a broader age range than 12-16 year olds, hence why I'm back and gaming!



bitsandkits said:


> I accept that people are prone to reflecting on the good old days, but like many veterans, people believe the hobby was better when they got into it or that it was cheaper,or the rules worked better or were less dumbed down.


Yes, although I disagree that streamlining rules is necessarily a dumbing down. It can often make for a better game. As I haven't been around I can't argue the call between 3rd, 4th and 5th Ed 40K, but my best example would be the computer game Mass Effect. There was an awul lot of more comlex RPG elements removed for the sequel, but the sequel became a much better game for it.



bitsandkits said:


> And if your going to find forums like this an enjoyable place to be then your going to have to accept that people will bitch about the most stupid things to do with this hobby, some of the posters in this forum will post something purely to have an opposing opinion to yours even though they agree with you.
> 
> You will also find an undercurrent of anti GW sentiment on forums, because people are never going to be happy with what GW do because the gamers look at the hobby from the point of view of the gamer, GW look at the hobby from the point of view of a company and those two opinions about the hobby differ a lot.


I understand what you're saying here, and as I said, this is the internet, not a place for reasonable discussion. But I decided what the hell, let's start up a thread to discuss my main gripe with the site.

What annoys me the most is that people were moaning about all these issues when I was gaming. I don't think it's changed much at all to be honest, and I don't believe the "good old days" some people are in love with existed. There were more games then than now (at least in stores) and some of those games were "all in one" like Blood Bowl, which I love. However, the simple fact is that GW stopped stocking these games in store because they don't make money. I'd rather have a GW that didn't stock them than not have a GW at all.



bitsandkits said:


> I will say this post made me take a second look at the list of posts in this section of the forum and 3 out of the top 5 were pretty negative. food for thought maybe


That's all I'm trying to say. There are awesome tactica threads here, good rumour roundups and I found an brilliant calculator to work out damage a unit can cause to enemy - bravo to all involved! It's just the constant negatives that get me down.

But I've had my gripe now :grin:


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## IadUmboros (Aug 9, 2010)

Kreuger said:


> *Shrug*
> 
> It was disappointing to know at the advent of 3rd edition that the main reason for the change was to lower in age the possible range of players and improve sales demographics.


This is what I was really trying to get at. How/when did this happen? As I said, I was 11 (if not younger) when I bought 40K, so what changed that they lowered the age it was aimed at? Very few people under 10 are capable of playing 40K to be honest.

I'd just like to add, at 32 these dumbed down rule books still confuse me!


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I think the real reasoning behind the change in rules from 2nd to 3rd edition was the same concept as the advent of the War of the Ring for LotR- people wanted to be able to use armies instead of large skirmishing warbands.

Utilising 2nd edition would have made such large scale battles untenable with the complexity of the rules, obviously the finance angle (make people need more models to play properly) is also a fairly large part of it.

I can't fault GW for their logic, and the results- ever increasing numbers of people joining the hobby- speak for themselves


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## Flayed 0ne (Aug 29, 2010)

take a look at the "good old days" models...they are complete shite...now take a look at the new Dark Eldar models...beautiful...

its precisely because GW has expanded and grown (world wide) that they have been able to give players such improved quality and longevity...if all that played were geezers (and im one of em), it wouldnt have made it this far...

...people gotta realize...this isnt a game for "adults" or "kids"...its a "game"...for anyone that can comprehend wtf is going on, to enjoy...12 is "recomended"....some kids can grasp it earlier...some adults will never be that smart...it is...what it is...

:drinks:


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Flayed 0ne said:


> take a look at the "good old days" models...they are complete shite...now take a look at the new Dark Eldar models...beautiful...


now take a look at the stormraven, the chapter master box, most space marine special characters, metal ven dread and we are back to shite, in fact worse shite than good old day models.


IadUmboros said:


> like Blood Bowl, which I love. However, the simple fact is that GW stopped stocking these games in store because they don't make money.


I disagree, there were plenty of people who still wanted to play blood bowl or any specialist game after GW stopped stocking them, the only reason people started having less interest and sales dropped is because GW don't allow them to be played in store.

I know GW are thick, but its pretty obvious sales of an item are gonna drop when you stop selling them a few months after release and tell fans of the systems to fuck off when then enter your stores.


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## Flindo (Oct 30, 2010)

I wouldnt call it a "Kids game" but I would say everyone can play it if they have enough paitence and intellegence to play it, so I would concider it a game for everyone who can play it, not for kids.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> I know GW are thick, but its pretty obvious sales of an item are gonna drop when you stop selling them a few months after release and tell fans of the systems to fuck off when then enter your stores.


Sales for the specalist games always drop off because after the initial release and purchase of a warband/team/squad the games runs out of steam in the sales sense, the only real exception was epic but that was more like a core game than a off shoot. 

Im not saying it was the right thing to do, but GW went for lord of the ring and had to sacrifice shelf space to accommodate it, see you later specialist range!, though i have to admit it has never made sense that they do not allow store players to play specialist games when they are still available online to buy.

I would have thought they would atleast have supported space hulk considering the possibility of after release sales of models and with things like cities of death scenery it would have made sense to revisit necromunda for the same reasons and a tie in with blood on the pc would have been an automatic dual promotion ,practice your plays online then battle it out with models angle in store etc


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> HE SAID NAKED. GET HIM WESTERN PARENTS!
> 
> 
> Oh but gore entrails murder and explosions, those are fine.


This is Britain where you can watch hostel 2 and get off, but if you're doing it to a still of the same film you'll get done for breaking the law.

Anyway 40k isn't just for kids, it's just that like Star Wars, 40k is going to appeal to kids. If you don't like them simply avoid them or just nod and say nice when they start pestering you.

It works with kids, hell it works with everyone.


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

Nah, it's exactly like Star Wars, Doctor Who and all that. Any man/woman/child can enjoy it.

I mean, when I started I was 13 I think, I didn't really start to begin to learn the rules properly until I started going to the club at my GW, which was just after I turned 14 so, that was at least 7 months. Even then I wasn't very good, losing almost all my games, which shows you have to have some tactical prowess. Which leads you on, who are the guys entering all the high up tournaments? I haven't even entered my first one after 4 years of playing the game! 

I would imagine that their immediate age is the child of 12, but thats so they can get the sales for the kiddies that mummy will pay for. But the odd few will stay in the hobby, and a lot of people stay in this hobby for life, because it's something they enjoy. I mean, the owner of my local indie has been in the hobby since rogue trader days. Whereas you get a small kid about 12 who plays against his dad. 

I don't really know what I'm trying to get at to be honest.. 

I think, what I'm trying to say, is that they need that trickle of the young kids, having to make that instant sale, making sure they get a lot of money in a short space, doing that, they need to have a rule set to accommodate them, but making it tactically challenging to the old farts who play the gaming. Meaning it's not a kids game, just meaning it's trying to get to a lot of people, from 10 to 100 years old.

However, looking at the updated FAQ, you can tell a lot of kiddies, or people who are lacking in common sense have asked these questions... http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490286a_FAQ_40Krulebook_version1_1.pdf


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## ChugginDatHaterade (Nov 15, 2010)

I think I had more fun playing back in 3rd edition because I was 12 years old. I would never go back to the shitfest that was the third edition rules. And Im glad that time is over. Much as I miss the constant FAQ and rules updates, there was so much junk published. Heres my obscure army with wargear items in some white dwarf you didnt bother to read, but you have to take my word on what they do. 4th was an improvement but it had a series of bad codex releases. 5th is by far the best. The models are more plastic than ever, have more bits in each kit than ever, and generally look great. Sure theres the storm raven, but thats one dud compared to the rest of the blood angels, dark eldar, nid, and space wolf kits they have put out.

Specialist games were alright, and fun at times. But I think gw probably cut them for a reason, ie they arent making money. I dont know anything about draconian in store policies about playing them, as I go to a non gw game store. And theres plenty of games that arent GW which are good. Heavy gear for instance is a skirmish scale game, and by far beats either BFG or blood bowl.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

bitsandkits said:


> Sales for the specalist games always drop off because after the initial release and purchase of a warband/team/squad the games runs out of steam in the sales sense


some they didn't even give time to run out of steam though, I remember when inquisitor came out the shop I played at stocked it for 1 month, thats not enough time to even create steam, nevermind let run out of steam.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Specialist games support is very poor from GW, but this I think is because they dont make much money from it. Having played pretty much all the specialist games, some have not aged very well, but some are still as fun today as they ever were. They should certainly rerelease Gorka Morka!!

As for the stores not allowing specialist games to be played in store, I suspect this is more to do with a space thing rather than anything else. If you only have 2 tables and have 3 main game systems, there is no room for a game you dont even sell in the store.

The advent of moaning has come along since forums started to exist. I started playing before the internet even existed so we just got on with playing and if we didnt like anything we house ruled a solution. The different editions have different things going for them and Im not sure why there is such hatred for 3rd edition (I seem to recall it played quite well). 

Kididfication. Not sure on this one, yes the game is more streamlined, but that just makes for nice quick games (less than 2 hours normally) for 1500 point encounter. I like 5th edition and bar a few rules think it does the job nicely. And to be fair we are all big kids playing with toy soldiers


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

I don't mind if GW targets kids with the space marine fanwankery, its just that everyone else gets ignored. Like Daemons. I can only hope that one of the titslugs ended up in GW's desginer team so they can see how its done. Or Tau. Designers should watch some more anime and stop calling plastic boxes with pew-pew guns and jet packs Crisis Suits. They did Tyranids pretty well, though. Means they watched enough tentacle rape hentai and monster porn. And believe me, the kids wouldn't raise an eyebrow. I remember seeing my first few seconds of horse porn on a 10 year olds phone when I was 16.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

Awww But I liked Inquisitor and Necromunda and Epic......


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> some they didn't even give time to run out of steam though, I remember when inquisitor came out the shop I played at stocked it for 1 month, thats not enough time to even create steam, nevermind let run out of steam.


I have to agree with you on that one, support for it was pretty dismal, plus i think plastics would have been the best answer for that system, imagine the things they could do with the models with cad they use now? 

Im very pro specialist games, i was kinda hoping the hobbit wouldnt go ahead and renew interest in the franchise so we might see some of them back in stores, failing that sell the licences to other companies.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

IadUmboros said:


> This is what I was really trying to get at. How/when did this happen? As I said, I was 11 (if not younger) when I bought 40K, so what changed that they lowered the age it was aimed at? Very few people under 10 are capable of playing 40K to be honest.
> 
> I'd just like to add, at 32 these dumbed down rule books still confuse me!


My two cents was that the big shift happened between 2nd ed and 3rd ed. I started playing in late Rogue Trader under the Battle Manual, which is essentially 40k version 1.5 and I was probably in 7th grade. That was when they added the different close combat system.

The game was a LOT more complex back then, which wasn't all good, parts of it were both. 

The big differences were: Games were smaller scale, the close combat system, wargear cards, save modifiers, and equipment selection rules.

Without writing an early 40k dissertation . . . . 

Models cost about 2x the points they do now. Ex - the standard marine was 30 points.
Each model and its opponent rolled dice to fight, dice and skill were compared whoever relaitively won hit the other guy, but could only fight models actually in base to base.
Characters could buy almost any item from a vast pool of specialist gear represented by "wargear cards". They could buy 1, 2, or 3 choices depending on character level.
Save modifiers worked like they do in fantasy for shooting and close combat.
Armies had a list of gear almost anyone could buy within reason and army role, and every item did something different.
The up-shot of all this

The points cost went down making games and sales bigger! Costly but cool!
Close combat took forever! And characters did absurdly well, but often got stuck somewhere. The new system is significantly better.
Save modifiers . . . I miss these. The ap system is silly. It migh speed up the game a bit, but it sacrifices a lot of variety and specificity. Modifying saves allowed for a much greater variation in weapon ability vs. its cost, and consequently was less prone to min-maxing. There was a break-even point where almost nothing could save but it was much less common than AP1 or AP2 is now. (i.e. Lascannons had a -6 save mod bolters -1)
The equipment/wargear choices were a lot more varied. Fewer armies were equiped exactly the same. The mantra of sergeant + powerfist, 2x meltas, didn't exist. I'm not claiming there weren't power builds, there were, but the lists were less predictable so metagaming was less common and much broader. It was more about bringing the nastiest thing you could, and less about being able to know how to counter a given set of other builds.
 - Additionally the character of the game changed with the advent of 3rd ed. The rules were simplified (and streamlined - I think they did both - but both aren't necesarily good). But as was pointed out daemonettes for instance, changed drastically. Chaos possibly more than any other army got slapped with the design-nerfbat. I recall hearing that the Keeper of secrets, when they remade it, went through maaaany iterations before GW felt they could release it. There is difficulty in reconciling a demon representing debauchery and sexual excess and making it appropriate for a new younger audience.

But I don't think there is any coincidence. The game changed and the design aesthetic changed. Both to be more general, and less interesting. Thankfully, design-wise GW has made a move back towards a richer background and the models show that.


And in defense of the old system I was probably 11 or 12 when I learned 40k, back in the arcanely complex 'good ole days'. If I could do it as a 12 year old, it wasn't _that_ hard.

Oh well. It ended up as a dissertation anyway.

Heh. I hope that helps. =D

Cheers,
Kreuger


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

LordWaffles said:


> Bieber fever.
> 
> But yeah 40k is basically a kiddy game now with cool models.


40k has ALWAYS been a 'kids' game with cool models.
It's just that some kids are bigger and older than others.

I started when I was 19, which was when RT came out.
I was playing with people around my own age (+/- 5 years).

Now I'm playing in clubs with kids as young as 1/4 my age (and I had to have specific Police background checks because of this) - but the guys my age play Fantasy or DBM/Ancients (which has never really interested me).


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## Nyustukyi (Jul 10, 2010)

answer....MANSAUCE.

Seriously I think it is for like 16+ thats just my opinion.


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## Imperious (May 20, 2009)

*For Kids?*

I just have two words for everybody - Tit Slug


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Imperious said:


> I just have two words for everybody - Tit Slug


The Tit Slug conquers another thread! All bow before her titanic might!


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## Sleeter (Nov 12, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Utilising 2nd edition would have made such large scale battles untenable with the complexity of the rules, obviously the finance angle (make people need more models to play properly) is also a fairly large part of it.


I'd just like to counter this by saying that I played 10k vs 10k point battles in 2nd ed, and they were hardly that much slower than in 5th ed. In fact, with two people controlling one 10k force and just me controlling the other 10k force in 2nd ed we took less time than it took my current 5th ed game group for an 18k vs 18k battle, per turn, and the current group had a game master (who was necessary to keep things flowing and cut arguments short by just saying Yes or No on rules decisions). At the last game there were 6 people per side and they were taking close to 45 minutes a turn, even with anyone on either team empowered to step in and control their side's forces in assaults and for save throws, and with the GM there able to witness rolls if no one in the other team could!

When we were playing out 10k a side battles we were in high school (UK), so the rules couldn't have been that complicated! Now everyone I play with is uni age or over (18+ for you 'Merkians) and are either doing or have completed degrees. If 2nd ed was so much worse for large scale battles than the newer games, then I would have expected a 5th ed game with more mature players to take substantially less time than a 2nd ed game with immature players. Not so.

2nd ed rules were more complicated, but they were also more betterer for it. True fact. No bias or opinion.
:grin:


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

They used to have save modifiers in 40k? DAMMIT!

But I don't think 40k is a kiddy game. A game that appeals to kids, yes of course, but not a game meant for kids. I've seen kids with good sportsmanship but I've also seen (much more often) kids with horrid sportsmanship that forfeit as soon as the game starts going downhill.

Thread ender: 40k appeals to everyone. Not just kids.

/Thread


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Alsojames said:


> kids with horrid sportsmanship that forfeit as soon as the game starts going downhill.


sounds like 90% of grown men I've seen in games workshop.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

I've seen it before and it's not pretty.


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