# Women in the Imperium



## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

I know the canonical reason why their are no female space marines, the Emperor only made male primarchs and as a result only men are viable candidates for gene seed implantation, I want to know the reason that this has never changed, because the only thing that comes to mind is that the folks at game workshop are misogynist bigots and I don't think that is true. The existence of the Sisters of Battle shows me that GW has nothing against women and has no problem with the idea of female warriors. The Imperial Guard has been unbiased for some time and Lt. Mira of Graia shows that you don't need to be a man to have balls in the grim dark future of the 41st millennium. 

Yet the sisters of battle are a far cry from the space marines. The only thing that the sisters have over the Astrates is their faith powers, but does that make any sense? 

How does canon justify that the Sisters have magical powers derived from their fanatical faith in the Emperor that the Space Marines, the Emperor's Chosen, lack? 


It seems to me that in the next edition GW should retcon things. Make it so that orthodox chapters like the Ultramarines are mixed, make the Sister's of Battle an all-female space marine chapter. Then make faith a power that space marines can use but have the sisters of battle (and the black templars) have a bonus when using faith powers.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

i wouldnt hold your breath


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Just because I know I am right doesn't mean I expect other people to see it. That would imply that other people are as smart as I am.


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## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

In terms of fluff, Space marines do not believe that the Emperor is a god(which pretty much 100% of all chapters agree on) while pretty much the rest of the imperium belives that he is a god and due to the whole belief systerm in warhammer 40k allows people to perform miricles.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

GabrialSagan said:


> it seems to me that in the next edition GW should retcon things. Make it so that orthodox chapters like the Ultramarines are mixed, make the Sister's of Battle an all-female space marine chapter. Then make faith a power that space marines can use but have the sisters of battle (and the black templars) have a bonus when using faith powers.


Umm... why?


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## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

Also forgot to add:

Sisters of battle are raised to revere the Emperor so obviously they place alot more faith in him than Astartes do as Astartes learn to revere their primarch(if they know who it is) or the chapters anscensters.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Short answer is that there are no female space marines nor will there ever be for the same reason there are no Daleks or Ewoks in 40k. That is the background and it is what it is. 

I would be very disappointed if they made the Sisters of Battle into "Marines with Jugs" much in the same way I'd be annoyed if those items that make the SoB unique(faith) were incorporated into the SM chapters. Just as you don't need to be a man to have balls, so too you don't need to be a Space Marine either.

The Codices represent the different peoples of the 40k Universe, why blend them into one big melange?

Having said that if you want to model marines with Jugs, by all means do.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

I especially love the dismissive and trivializing verbiage used by fluff nazis. "Marines with jugs" is perhaps one of the most hilariously misogynistic phrases you can throw at the subject, as if breasts were the only thing differentiating men from women. It also serves to parody the idea itself, as though the attempt, intent, and idea itself is completely inane and not worth consideration. Implying that the basis of the idea is trivial and meaningless and ignoring anything else is the biggest roadblock to art. Congratulations on being part of the problem Magpie.

That said, if we go down the road of WOMEN SPACE MARINES this will turn into another 980²(4η≥ᵯ⅝√♂³≈2ǫ♀)πR² page topic about why it can/can't be done. I will simply say this is an interesting idea but because Space Marines don't believe the emperor is a god the acts of faith thing would be a little out of place for them.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

revan4559 said:


> In terms of fluff, Space marines do not believe that the Emperor is a god(which pretty much 100% of all chapters agree on) while pretty much the rest of the imperium belives that he is a god and due to the whole belief systerm in warhammer 40k allows people to perform miricles.



Two things about that statement.

1. Though the Astrates do not believe that the Emperor is a god, they do believe in Him, they believe in His power and in His protection, they just believe that the reason he has this power is not because he is a god but because he is a human being who is so awesome that He may as well be a god. Their faith in Him is no less then the sisters. 

2. The space marines are right, the Emperor is not a god. And the sisters are wrong. So why is the sister's blind faith is a non-existent god more potent then the Astrates faith is a real Ubermench?


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Short answer is that there are no female space marines nor will there ever be for the same reason there are no Daleks or Ewoks in 40k. That is the background and it is what it is.



No.

There are no Ewoks or Daleks in 40k because those are trademarks of Lucasfilm and the BBC respectively. There are no female space marines because someone at GW said so. The thing is that their is nothing stopping someone now from saying. "there are female space marines, and their have always been female space marines."

Nothing is preventing someone from retconning the plot so that Lorgar, Magnus, Roboute Gulliman and Rogel Dorn were women.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

GabrialSagan said:


> the Emperor only made male primarchs and as a result only men are viable candidates for gene seed implantation,


To my knowledge, that is not the canonical reason for why there are no female space marines. That the geneseed is keyed to the y chromosome, something which only males possess, is the canonical reason (at least last time I checked anyway.)


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Because the Astartes believe in the will of mankind and the spuremacy of the human race, and that the Emperor is an icon for this indefatigable aspect and that he is the one that gave them the stars. The rest of the Imperium (Bar the Machine Cult) _literally believe he is God._ While having faith in a man is one thing, having blind zeal for a god is something far more powerful. The reason this is significant is that it is proven fact that sheer force of will can cause the materium to bend to that will- Remember, all Humans are tied to the warp, even though it is mostly very, very minor. The "miracles" may well indeed be warp manifestations brought about by the concerted and immense force of will created when a group of people that devout all will a single thing to happen with all of their soul. Benevolent manifestations, but manifestations nonetheless. Ironically, it would be the Ordo Hereticus's very zeal and hatred for warp-spawned power that would _cause_ them to believe such warp manifestations were not the warp at all, but manifestations of the Emperor's grace in return for being so devout. More devotion causes more "miracles", more "miracles" incites more devotion. Very ironic.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Iron Angel said:


> I especially love the dismissive and trivializing verbiage used by fluff nazis. "Marines with jugs" is perhaps one of the most hilariously misogynistic phrases you can throw at the subject, as if breasts were the only thing differentiating men from women. It also serves to parody the idea itself, as though the attempt, intent, and idea itself is completely inane and not worth consideration. Implying that the basis of the idea is trivial and meaningless and ignoring anything else is the biggest roadblock to art. Congratulations on being part of the problem Magpie.


If you actually take the time to read the OP and my response what you'll actually see is that I am advocating the very things you are saying.

You say Marine with Jugs is "as if the only thing differentiating is breasts", and I agree but that is exactly what the OP is suggesting. Making women indistinguishable from Space Marines and giving to SM the things that make the Sisters of Battle unique. 

Congratulations on again missing the point entirely.

"one of the most hilariously misogynistic phrases you can throw at the subject" I would say is "you don't need to be a man to have balls in the grim dark future of the 41st millennium." Which is suggesting that balls are what is needed to have any martial worth.

However



GabrialSagan said:


> Just because I know I am right doesn't mean I expect other people to see it. That would imply that other people are as smart as I am.


puts this discussion pretty much in context for me so best of luck with your trolling mate, hope you enjoy the attention while it lasts.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

darkreever said:


> To my knowledge, that is not the canonical reason for why there are no female space marines. That the geneseed is keyed to the y chromosome, something which only males possess, is the canonical reason (at least last time I checked anyway.)


That's what I said, and my point is that is absurd. Canon is whatever the authors say it is. Next edition the authors could decide that the Emperor keyed the geneseed to the gay gene and as a result only homosexuals can be recruited into the astrates. 

Remember, the Emperor and His Space Marines are imaginary, meaning they function on whatever rules the current edition's authors decide to create. 

There is no "real" reason why space marines must be men other than the fact that some British person said so.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Why do we need female Space Marines?

Putting aside the fluff which says it can't be done, what's the reason for including them in the first place?

In terms of appearance they would look nearly identical to their male counterparts. They're going to be just as muscled, chemically treated and augmented as the men. They won't have much in the way of breasts and long hair would be a liability in battle and interfere with your helmet and neural jacks. They would be no 'femininity'.

So the Space Marines have a broader recruiting pool? The recruit population is the not the problem, there's more than enough. What's holding them back is the mysticism over the process, the regulations over the Codex Astartes and a scarcity of resources. 

Just diversity for the sake of it? At we really at the point where every demographic must be pandered to, that everything has to be equal in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium where there is only war.

Really, what's the point/purpose of including female Space Marines?


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Rems said:


> Putting aside the fluff which says it can't be done, what's the reason for including them in the first place?
> 
> In terms of appearance they would look nearly identical to their male counterparts. They're going to be just as muscled, chemically treated and augmented as the men. They won't have much in the way of breasts and long hair would be a liability in battle and interfere with your helmet and neural jacks. They would be no 'femininity'.


That is kinda my point too. If you want to make women into men go for your life but don't for a minute thing you are displaying any form of "equality".

You could pretty much say that Space Marines are neuter super humans anyway so what sex the base creature was is pretty much irrelevant when it's all said and done.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

GabrialSagan said:


> There is no "real" reason why space marines must be men other than the fact that some British person said so.


Well considering it was created by that person/those people then it is their intellectual property to do with as they please. If thats the reason they are allowing authors to give as an explanation to better describe their creation than who are you to demand otherwise?


In its own way, it makes a bit of sense, just like using youths just entering puberty makes sense for the creation of a space marine.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Because women play this game too, and if you are a woman and want to see yourself represented in the game, you either have to choose between Space Elves and Space Nuns? Maybe they want Space Marines but don't want to play as big muscly dudes? We aren't saying force GW to release female space marines (Well, the OP is, I'm not) but why knock someone down just for trying to make unique-looking models with unique fluff?


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

GabrialSagan said:


> There is no "real" reason why space marines must be men other than the fact that some British person said so.


Have you got something against British people? 

Why was the One Ring forged in Mordor? 
Because someone said so.

Why was Luke sent to live on a dust ball planet? 
Because someone said so. 

Why was Yoda green, surely he could also have been purple? 
Because someone said so.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Man this topic is catching fire already...


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Rems said:


> Why do we need female Space Marines?
> 
> Putting aside the fluff which says it can't be done, what's the reason for including them in the first place?
> 
> ...


You are taking this from the wrong angle. Ask why there should be female space marines is the same as asking why there should be male space marines. 

Space Marines are the best and bravest the human race has to offer. They sacrifice a normal life to become a living weapon who has been charged with the sacred duty of defending the human race from the terrors of the void, gender has nothing to do with that job description. 

You ask what is the point of including female space marines, I ask you what is the point of excluding female space marines (FYI: because that is the way it is, that is the way it was done in the past and because the author says so are all unacceptable answers.) 

PS: FYI: your post makes you sound like a misogynist pig.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

darkreever said:


> Well considering it was created by that person/those people then it is their intellectual property to do with as they please. If thats the reason they are allowing authors to give as an explanation to better describe their creation than who are you to demand otherwise?
> 
> 
> In its own way, it makes a bit of sense, just like using youths just entering puberty makes sense for the creation of a space marine.


Except that they don't because Warhammer 40k is owned by GW, which is a corporation. The Astrates never belonged to any person.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

normtheunsavoury said:


> Have you got something against British people?
> 
> Why was the One Ring forged in Mordor?
> Because someone said so.
> ...



And at any moment. Someone could release LoTR 2nd Ed where the One ring was forged in the Shire. 

In the 2nd Ed of Star Wars Luke was sent to Alderaan, Leia was raised on Ord Montel and Yoda is a Lion-Turtle the size of a small island.

All these things could happen just because someone says so. And if you think I am full of shit then answer this question: Who shot 1st, Han or Greedo?


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

So basically what you are saying is the established fluff is irrelevant because the authors have the ability to retcon it? You are right, the authors can retcon it. You are not the author. Sit down.

You know the same thing applies to the rules for the game right? I'll remember your logic when explaining to my opponent why my Doom Scythes are self-replicating and my C'tan only cost 12 points.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Iron Angel said:


> You know the same thing applies to the rules for the game right? I'll remember your logic when explaining to my opponent why my Doom Scythes are self-replicating and my C'tan only cost 12 points.


With that sort of talk I think we're going to need to buff Draigo some !


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

GabrialSagan said:


> Except that they don't because Warhammer 40k is owned by GW, which is a corporation. The Astrates never belonged to any person.


Actually yes they do, because the concept of warhammer 40k is the creation of Rick Priestly. That the company games workshop invested in his idea, and see a constant return of their investment (that thing that generally happens when you invest in a profitable idea), does not mean that it ceases to be his property. I'm pretty sure Priestly could end things with them should he choose to, but seeing as his idea is still making loads of money and he and those working with him can continue to do more with it, theres little point in that.

Also, its ast*ar*tes not ast*ra*tes.


And on a final note, you have an edit button Gabriel; there is no reason for you not to use it.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> With that sort of talk I think we're going to need to buff Draigo some !


Why the hell not? Give him ten wounds- Hell why stop there, just because some "author" said ten was the max statistics on a profile? FUCK that noise, Draigo now has 72 wounds and strikes at I10.5 with 23 S44 attacks! Suck it haters! Oh and he can charge 72" and so can any unit he is attached to! So what if some "author" said he cant, pff. What do those guys know.

Oh and he costs 17½ points. Thats right. Thats a half a point right there on the end. Why not? Because an "author" said we couldnt? Whatever.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

This time you're missing the point. 

At some point or another someone at GW said "all space marines are men" and it stuck. 

Solo shot Guido first, then Mr. Lucas changed it because he's a fucking idiot who can't leave things well enough alone. 

If something is going to change it will be done to suit popular opinion and sell more minis. At the moment there is almost zero demand for Tittie Marines, its not sexist or misogynistic its a fact. Some things are just the way they are, its the way the world is, women can't be monks, men can't be nuns, blind people can't be driving instructors and very few deaf people are music producers.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Iron Angel said:


> Why the hell not? Give him ten wounds- Hell why stop there, just because some "author" said ten was the max statistics on a profile? FUCK that noise, Draigo now has 72 wounds and strikes at I10.5 with 23 S44 attacks! Suck it haters! Oh and he can charge 72" and so can any unit he is attached to! So what if some "author" said he cant, pff. What do those guys know.


STOP IT !!!! You're giving me a woody !:shok:


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Now to paint seventy-two Doom Scythes for my self-replicating Doom Scythe army where Doom Scythes are my HQ, Troops, and Heavy choices, and can choose to start on the board. Also they are scoring deal with it.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Iron Angel said:


> Now to paint seventy-two Doom Scythes for my self-replicating Doom Scythe army where Doom Scythes are my HQ, Troops, and Heavy choices, and can choose to start on the board.


You forget Draigo's new Psychic Attack "It's Raining Men" it's a Skyfire BS10 AP1 STR10 Witchfire that is Assault 90 Range 96". 

What was the Doom Sythe's armour again?

Oh and he now has a 2+ FNP for any of the Perils of the Warp crappola


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Thats cool, when you kill one it splits into two, thats how the self-replicating works, duh. Also it replicates whenever I like, even multiple times per turn. And if I get so many scythes I literally cannot fit more scythes on the board then they fuse into the Megazord, and then you're boned.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

GabrialSagan said:


> You are taking this from the wrong angle. Ask why there should be female space marines is the same as asking why there should be male space marines.
> 
> Space Marines are the best and bravest the human race has to offer. They sacrifice a normal life to become a living weapon who has been charged with the sacred duty of defending the human race from the terrors of the void, gender has nothing to do with that job description.
> 
> ...


i would assume that is what the Sisters do, just on a different level, the Space Marines are the protectors of the Imperium who happen to believe the Emperor is powerful immortal human but because of the Ecclisarchy and its faith in the emperor as a god (ironically begun by the lectio divinatus and by dint of him writing it in the first place Lorgar) then a force is needed to protect the spirtuality aspect of the Imperium.

The space marines cant do that becasue whilst they respect the faith they do not agree with it. The Sisters can because they are raised from entry into the orphanages or the sisterhood to believe that he is a god, he is THE god. 

As a female fan i for one would not want to see the Space Marines become Female, it just would not work and they would look like some over steroid 1980s former eastern block female shot putters or discus throwers. 

As for the someone british said so, that has to be the most ridiculous thing i have ever read, i am british and i can see where GW have balanced it out when they realised it wasnt just adolescence boys buying the games and model kits, so there is the Space Marines for the male side of the game and Sisters of Battle for the female side of it.

Sounds to me like you are not listening to what is being explained to you, either that or you are not choosing to read what is being said because it just does not agree with what you believe.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Iron Angel said:


> Thats cool, when you kill one it splits into two, thats how the self-replicating works, duh. Also it replicates whenever I like, even multiple times per turn. And if I get so many scythes I literally cannot fit more scythes on the board then they fuse into the Megazord, and then you're boned.


Dosen madder Draigo still win.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Nuh uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

GabrialSagan said:


> You ask what is the point of including female space marines, I ask you what is the point of excluding female space marines (FYI: because that is the way it is, that is the way it was done in the past and because the author says so are all unacceptable answers.)


Because of target demographics for the miniatures.

Young boys don't want to play with dolls they want to play with Space Men, how do I know? My son and his mates play and laugh at the "girls" in my armies.

There is also the fine line to tread in regards of what is appropriate for young boys. I know that the Dark Eldar models and fiction do walk a bit of a fine line at times and there are sections of the Black Library books I edit out for my kids.

It has nothing to do with equality or any of that other stuff.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Iron Angel said:


> Nuh uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


yeh ahh


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

GabrialSagan said:


> You are taking this from the wrong angle. Ask why there should be female space marines is the same as asking why there should be male space marines.
> 
> Space Marines are the best and bravest the human race has to offer. They sacrifice a normal life to become a living weapon who has been charged with the sacred duty of defending the human race from the terrors of the void, gender has nothing to do with that job description.
> 
> ...


So you evade the question and instead use ad hominems and tell me my argument is 'wrong', fantastic use of the straw man argument. Please address the points i raised. Why do we need female Space Marines? Why do you want female Space Marines?

If gender is irrelevant to the the job description then why do women also need to be able to be Space Marines? 

You asked why there should be male Space Marines. We can answer this in two ways, an in and out of universe explanation. In universe only men can be space marines as the gene-seed and other implants are keyed to the y chromosome, only men have that, ergo only men can be Space Marines. This is how the Emperor made it, perhaps he was misogynist, perhaps he didn't see the need for female space marines when there are enough men, perhaps he wanted to use men because on average they're stronger, tougher etc; more suited to warfare and so he wanted a higher level base material. It doesn't matter, that's how it is.

An out of universe explanation would be because Space Marines are GW's biggest sellers. Space Marines are popular and need to continue to be popular. Dramatically changing their fluff may alienate existing and prospective customers. 

Young boys are GW's new converts, they're who they get into the game and hope will stick with it. Young boys like the idea of super soldiers, recruited at their own age levels. A lot of them would want to be Space Marines, they like war, it's cool. The young boys, GW's target audience are not interested in female Space Marines, they don't want them. They can't look at them and say 'i want to be that'. 

So there we are, some in universe and some commercial reasons as to why Space Marines should be male. Now why should they also be female, why do you want female Space Marines?


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

A lot of good points are being raised. So let me rephrase my argument.

In American law GW owns the copyrights and trademarks for 40K and all its derivatives. That means that they have the power to unilaterally change any part of canon. So if tomorrow GW published a Deathwatch novel where the protagonist is a female ultramarine, no amount of fan griping would change the fact that there can be female space marines. 

That said, from the point of view of GW's marketing department, is their a good reason not to publish that novel other than the fact that previous authors wrote some techno-babble saying that the gene seed can only be implanted in young men?

IMHO- GW would be wise to revise that portion of canon to appeal to a larger fan base and create more interesting stories.

If Space Marines could be men or women then it makes sense that the Sisters of Battle could be an all-female chapter of space marines. 


My opinions of the Faith trait are tangential: I just think it makes no sense that the Sister's belief in a fake god would have any more tangibility than the Space Marines belief in a real demigod. The space marines show as much or more faith and veneration for the Emperor and that belief is more accurate in describing His canonical nature.


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## Insanity (Oct 25, 2011)

Female bodies are generally smaller and more fragile than a male body. So would a female body even be able to handle the extreme stress that the bodies go through? I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that even some males don't actually survive the process.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

GabrialSagan said:


> That said, from the point of view of GW's marketing department, is their a good reason not to publish that novel other than the fact that previous authors wrote some techno-babble saying that the gene seed can only be implanted in young men?


Did you not read REMS' post? 
Boys don't want girl Spacemarines.
GW wants to sell miniatures to prepubescent boys.
Ultramarinettes won't sell.

If there was suddenly a huge change in the demographic and young boys started buying miniatures that incorporate women (Infinity for example) then you can bet that Ultramarinettes would be on the agenda quick smart.


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## Tempessst (Sep 9, 2012)

I agree with parts of both sides of this thread, but i have to ask, Gabriel why did you start this post if you were just going to insult the intelligence of the people who disagree with you. There is no point in a discussion if one side refuses to even listen to what the other has to say.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Rems said:


> Why do we need female Space Marines? Why do you want female Space Marines?


Simply put: Lt. Mira should have been recruited into the Ultramarines. She demonstrated amazing courage and fortitude in an impossible situation, in the face of an overwhelming alien horde and the very forces of Damnation she showed unbreakable metal in His service. 

There should have been an epilogue at the end of Space Marine where Sister Mira in full power armor, chainsword in hand stands side by side with her battle brothers against an oncoming tyranid onslaught. 


For a second forget what space marines are and think about what space marines represent.

To me, in the post-9/11 world Space Marines are meant to be the Aristotelian paragons the career soldier. Someone who has dedicated their life and soul to the defense of their people. A person who endlessly prepares to leap into battle. A person who is devoid of fear and doubt, a person who will gladly enter the most perilous fray with no desire for self preservation. A person who walks into death's arms thinking only of the countless people who will live another day because of their sacrifice. Because this person possesses these qualities (and the finest arms and armor available) this person can face down forces that would overwhelm normal men. They are Steel and Doom, They are the Defenders of Humanity, They are His space marines, and they shall know no fear!


Why are you so insistent that that description cannot fit a woman?


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Tempessst said:


> I agree with parts of both sides of this thread, but i have to ask, Gabriel why did you start this post if you were just going to insult the intelligence of the people who disagree with you. There is no point in a discussion if one side refuses to even listen to what the other has to say.


I don't insult the intelligence of people who disagree with me. I get short with people who answer the question I am not asking.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Did you not read REMS' post?
> Boys don't want girl Spacemarines.
> GW wants to sell miniatures to prepubescent boys.
> Ultramarinettes won't sell.



I read it, I just disagree with it. In the age of Korra and Katnis boys don't care if some of the heroes are girls. You really think that a 40k novel is going to sell less copies with a girl on the cover than a guy?


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## Tempessst (Sep 9, 2012)

GabrialSagan said:


> Just because I know I am right doesn't mean I expect other people to see it. That would imply that other people are as smart as I am.


Thats insulting intelligence. All he did was post his opinion that he didn't think it would happen soon. There is a part in the rules that says "Personal attacks will NOT be tolerated! If you lash out personally against another user you will receive our full attention, and trust me, you don't want that." I'm just saying that your post is just barely not violating that, just try to be less cross is all i'm saying. It is possible to disagree without yelling through txt.


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## GabrialSagan (Sep 20, 2009)

Tempessst said:


> Thats insulting intelligence. All he did was post his opinion that he didn't think it would happen soon. There is a part in the rules that says "Personal attacks will NOT be tolerated! If you lash out personally against another user you will receive our full attention, and trust me, you don't want that." I'm just saying that your post is just barely not violating that, just try to be less cross is all i'm saying. It is possible to disagree without yelling through txt.


That is not an attack on anyone. I am an intelligent person and in my own estimation I am probably more intelligent than about four billion people on this planet. That means that their are three billion people on the planet that are smarter than I am. It is possible everyone on this forum fits in the latter category. I will not say that any single person is more or less intelligent than I am.


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## VixusKragov (Feb 21, 2012)

Adding women into the equation does not serve as a necessary component of the 40k world. That description of Space Marines COULD fit women, but does it really matter if they're not represented? Sisters of Battle are pretty badass. Personally I wouldn't like it if GW decided to retcon a huge part of the fluff that helps make the universe what it is.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

GabrialSagan said:


> Simply put: Lt. Mira should have been recruited into the Ultramarines. She demonstrated amazing courage and fortitude in an impossible situation, in the face of an overwhelming alien horde and the very forces of Damnation she showed unbreakable metal in His service.
> 
> There should have been an epilogue at the end of Space Marine where Sister Mira in full power armor, chainsword in hand stands side by side with her battle brothers against an oncoming tyranid onslaught.


So you think there should be female Space Marines because women can be just as brave and skilful etc as the males chosen to be Space Marines? 

So what. In an ideal world perhaps there would be female Space Marines. As it is this is the 41st millennium where superstition and suspicion run rampant. Even if there was a method of turning women into Space Marines the chapters being the millennia old institutions they are, full of dogma, ritual and customs wouldn't do it, because the way they've done things is the way they've always done things. 

This is 40k, it's not fair. 



> For a second forget what space marines are and think about what space marines represent.
> 
> To me, in the post-9/11 world Space Marines are meant to be the Aristotelian paragons the career soldier. Someone who has dedicated their life and soul to the defense of their people. A person who endlessly prepares to leap into battle. A person who is devoid of fear and doubt, a person who will gladly enter the most perilous fray with no desire for self preservation. A person who walks into death's arms thinking only of the countless people who will live another day because of their sacrifice. Because this person possesses these qualities (and the finest arms and armor available) this person can face down forces that would overwhelm normal men. They are Steel and Doom, They are the Defenders of Humanity, They are His space marines, and they shall know no fear!
> 
> ...



We have very different opinions on what a Space Marine is.

He is not the epitome of the career soldiers, selflessly sacrificing himself. 

A Space Marine is a tans-human killer, slaved to a despotic regime. He is taken at a young age with no choice in the matter, having lived a life of violence. He is then physically augmented and mentally indoctrinated and brainwashed. Those things that make him human; memories of his past life, empathy for other humans, love etc are removed and replaced by a fanatical hatred for the enemies of man and obedience to his superiors. 

He is a brainwashed killer who has experienced centuries of nothing but war with nothing in common with the rest of humanity. When a Space Marine deals with normal humans at best he is cold and distant, incapable of understanding them; Grimaldus in Helsreach for example, at worst he actively disdains them and views them as mere mortals to be used as he see fits, being a superior being; Your Astral Claws or Marines Malevolent. 

There's a thread discussing the nature of Space Marines. http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=115728

But that's besides the point. 



GabrialSagan said:


> I read it, I just disagree with it. In the age of Korra and Katnis boys don't care if some of the heroes are girls. You really think that a 40k novel is going to sell less copies with a girl on the cover than a guy?


To be blunt yes. 

Look at the majority of video games and action or adventure movies. Most of them feature male leads and do so because they're aimed at a male audience. 

Young boys don't see Katnis as a role model. They look at Han Solo, Luke Skywalker, Indianna Jones or anyone of the hundreds of male action leads, who are male because that's what the male audience wants. How was Commander Shepard portrayed in the office mass effect advertising, he was male. Who is the biggest audience share for that game, men. 


Wargaming is primarily male populated and as such Space Marines are going to stay male. 

You may not like it or agree with it, but unfortunately that's the truth. Male gamers, movie watchers, wargamers want to see men in the spot light.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

And lets not forget that anyone who really wants to incorporate female characters is fully free to within the fluff. Hell I have female Necrons, with well written fluff and fully custom models. That doesn't mean I expect Games Workshop to make a special Matriarchal Dynasty. If you really want it to happen, make it happen, don't sit here and whine that Games Workshop isn't altering their business model based on your opinions.


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## SonofMalice (Feb 5, 2012)

I fear I came late to this party.
I don't particularly care if there were female marines except for one thing, I think the LAST thing the Imperium needs is yet another space marine iteration. I am speaking about in the game of course. I play Xenos and Chaos and all my friends play space marines. They have 5 to 6 codices filled with power armor and the same types of weapons. It is so damned BORING. Sure the tactics vary but I want something other than genric marine from chapter "x" attacking me day in and out. To make the Sisters of battle into that would just be worse. I LIKE them the way they are, I LIKE them weaker. Why? Because when space marines win all I can think is "woooo surprise. I am astonished that the pinnacle of humanity raised to transhuman status defeated the chaos or whatever." Of COURSE they win, they are insanely powerful. But a woman, largely unaugmented and with only her faith making up for 2 feet of height and 300 pounds of muscle winning? That's a story.

I think that you miss the point here, as in the other post you started regarding induction into chapters for older individuals. While the fluff is nice and cool the game is the reason for it and this kind of game demands diversity. See I think that you are actually doing a disservice to women here. Are they not good enough to fight the baddies on their own without being made into space marines? I root for them more as a result. In the heresy books women have a lot more inclusion and badassery but they don't have it just grafted onto them, they damn well earn it. 

I have, for a while now, had an issue with how the mass media treats women, that to be strong they must be the same as men. Untrue, strength comes in so many forms that to limit them is insulting. Stick women in the space marines and what have you truly gained? As it is they captain massive space ships, are deathcult assassins, tech assassins, culuxes assassins (pattern here), guardsmen, Adeptus Mechanicus magi, and Inquisitors. And Sisters of battle. Do they REALLY need to be space marines? Does that make them "equal" or does it just subtly imply that to be badass you have to be the same as a dude. 

When I play my eldar I consider about half my army is made up of women, when I play my nids I think of them like ants, largely female. Who knows what gender tau or kroot are but I bet its a fair mix. Dark Eldar have a lot of women as well. Necrons are 50/50 too since it was entire populations that were transferred. Women are definitely in the universe to stay. 

As for the Sisters of Battle what's wrong with them? They wear power armor, they have bolters too. That their faith is their trump card is honestly great. GK used to have the same thing going on, that faith made them incorruptible,now only the Sisters of battle truly bring the wrath of the god-emperor onto the field. Strength is not equality and in weakness people get creative. So the Sisters don't spit acid, do they need to? As I said from a dramatic point of view they are STRONGER characters than marines since it's just a human in good armor not a transhuman in terminator armor wielding a mace that can beatdown a tank. The setting is not about victory and a happy ending, its about the end. At the end marine and sister will die alike but who do you respect more: the terminator with lightning claws or the girl in the repenta? 

You seem fixated in both threads with a rather paradoxical view of diversity and equality. You can't have both. If you are diverse you cannot be totally equal, if you are totally equal you cannot be diverse. I admit this is a reducto ad absurdem but the only way I see your arguments working logically is to have every human, baby to old man be space marines. If that is what you want then we are all wasting our time here. 

Canon too seems to confuse you. Yes they can retcon and yes they can change things but if it isn't broke....Every girl I know who has played gravitates to the xenos and sisters, every guy to the SM. Do you really think that that is what girls are waiting for? A female space marine? What else would you like to change about the setting? Perhaps the Chaos Gods are actually my little ponies? Anything CAN change but why SHOULD it change? You have not made a convincing argument for females space marines. At best all you have done is raised the question "why not?" and that has been addressed in detail. Who knows? Maybe one day you will get your female space marines.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

The real question is why haven't GW updated SoB properly with a codex? Sure, some fanboy is going to say something about stocks and how GW is a publicly traded company and has to pursue their best interest. But that's really bollocks. Dark Eldar did not sell well either, nor did Necrons, yet it didn't stop them from bringing them back with a huge model line. When it comes down to it, it's just that GW has a terrible marketing team, which is why their stores are closing down left and right and they can find no other recourse but to rape their customers by increasing prices every year. GW just needs to be bought out by someone like WotC and be done with it.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Arcane said:


> The real question is why haven't GW updated SoB properly with a codex? Sure, some fanboy is going to say something about stocks and how GW is a publicly traded company and has to pursue their best interest. But that's really bollocks. Dark Eldar did not sell well either, nor did Necrons, yet it didn't stop them from bringing them back with a huge model line. When it comes down to it, it's just that GW has a terrible marketing team, which is why their stores are closing down left and right and they can find no other recourse but to rape their customers by increasing prices every year. GW just needs to be bought out by someone like WotC and be done with it.


someone needs a hug


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

A couple of points I'd like to add to the fire:

1. Space marines are the epitome of the Imperial warmachine. They are augmented by little understood techno-sorcery the Emperor developed, equipped with the finest gear the Imperium can produce, and have decades--if not centuries--of combat experience. They will overwhelmingly defeat any normal human. No questions.

And yet we still have Imperial Guard miniatures sell. We have dozens of Imperial Guard books. Why? Because they're a regular person facing all the universe can throw at them. They don't have the best toys or training or even motivation. They're mostly normal people put in inhumane situations and they're trying to make the best of it. They're the heroes that the Imperium is built upon. The SoB have a bit better gear than the IG, still, they're no where near as powerful as a Space Marine one on one. Yet they still believe in Him. Their faith keeps them strong. Strong enough to face everything the universe has to throw at them and still spit back litanies of hate.

You don't _need_ women space marines. They don't need it.

Plus a woman assassin is the only human to have killed a Primarch. Kudos to them, right?

And moving on to my second point...

We know of at least 2 Chapters that fully believe the Emperor is God made flesh. Should they possess faith based powers as well (not from a game play perspective, but from a fluff one).


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

bitsandkits said:


> someone needs a hug


Now is that a girl hug, man hug , Space Marine Hug, Man Space Marine Hug or Girl Space Marine hug?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I really don't understand the point of this thread. 

In an ideal world, female Space Marines would probably exist. But _Rems_ has given the reasons as to why female Space Marines do not exist. Lore exists - in universe - that justifies it, and there are marketing/business reasons - out of universe - that justifies it. As far as I am concerned that should be the end of it.


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## Garrak (Jun 18, 2012)

Genestealer hug. 

As for the whole canon and retcon thing. Yes retcons happen but they are usually done carefully, and when not you get an entire fanbase pissed at you for having Greedo shoot first. The thing is that when your playing in someone's sandbox you have to respect that. Any fictional story/universe/muppet needs to lay down the ground rules for how thing work, what are the limits within which things can be done and then respect those limits. Yes they can be bent, crossed and sometimes changed but those are always the exceptions to the rule. The Necrons now have more personality but their new fluff was written in such a way as to accommodate the automata-like necrons from before thus making every single Necrons appearance in the fluff still be valid. The only way you could make female SM work, without invalidating previous fluff and a crap ton of books, is to advance the fluff and make the galaxy WORSE and have the SM so desperate for new initiates that they even started taking women in a desperate gamble (but at that point it's obvious there's no hope because apparently the population numbers are that low that just male recruits aren't enough).

If a story or setting doesn't have an internal logic or doesn't follow it then it's pointless. The SW fanbase was split regarding the NJO series (personally I liked it) and the following series (Swarm War, Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi) have largely ignored the NJO by returning the galaxy to the state it was prior to the Vong invasions (minus dead characters and planets at least). The result was jarring, unpleasant and nonsensical - you had the chance to explore the consequences of a galaxy wide religious war and you act like nothing happened? Thank the Throne for the comics which had more brains than that and Legacy actually shows a post YV-war galaxy. 

We all know 40k is fiction but half of the fun of fiction is treating it as it were not and exploring it for all it's worth. In doing so we add things were we see they are missing but we always follow the logic of the setting, otherwise the whole experience is rendered null and void. There is a in-universe reason why SM are men and not only is it a rule of the setting, it's also one of the fundamental ones. If you don't like the rules within which the fluff works (and GW may change it any time they please, that is their right - doesn't mean the change would be a good one necessarily) than ignore it and play the game as you will.

And while SM are nice and all, give me Guard any day. SM are brainwashed to feel no fear, Guard aren't and must fight the same mind breaking space horrors. The underdog triumphing is much more satisfying then the post-human killing machine.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

They initially did take women into the Space Marine Legoons at first. However, women in bodybags was a distasteful idea, especially considering the supposed invulnerable idea of the Astartes, so they were given non combat roles, like Logistics and Transport drivers or pilots.

Until they realised that in the far future there are still women drivers, and when you at the controls of a 70 ton Land Raider thats a major disaster.

Instead they got put in Astartes soup kitchens and told to make sandwiches. Or clean up. And have dinner on the table ready.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Vaz said:


> They initially did take women into the Space Marine Legoons at first. However, women in bodybags was a distasteful idea, especially considering the supposed invulnerable idea of the Astartes, so they were given non combat roles, like Logistics and Transport drivers or pilots.
> 
> Until they realised that in the far future there are still women drivers, and when you at the controls of a 70 ton Land Raider thats a major disaster.
> 
> Instead they got put in Astartes soup kitchens and told to make sandwiches. Or clean up. And have dinner on the table ready.


That sounds, familiar......


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## ThoseKrazyKasrkin (Aug 2, 2011)

Vaz said:


> They initially did take women into the Space Marine Legoons at first. However, women in bodybags was a distasteful idea, especially considering the supposed invulnerable idea of the Astartes, so they were given non combat roles, like Logistics and Transport drivers or pilots.
> 
> Until they realised that in the far future there are still women drivers, and when you at the controls of a 70 ton Land Raider thats a major disaster.
> 
> Instead they got put in Astartes soup kitchens and told to make sandwiches. Or clean up. And have dinner on the table ready.


make me a sammich or i will smite thee down


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Wait, the OP wants GW & BL to do away with well established, unique, decades old characteristics for two Imperial factions simply because he thinks it's a good idea and thinks it should be changed. 

Yeah... good luck with that.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

imo, there is nothing a female space marine will change, we are already some 19 books in through the heresy and trying to change the space marine gender is pretty damn stupid (Especially if the only reason is to pander to rare few), they killed a primarch (sort of), and can and often do lead seats of power throughout the galaxy, from the inquisition to highest echelons of power on Terra.

anyway, the truth is females are physically (endurance, strength, speed, healing capacity, height, bone density, reaction times, cant handle pain aswell etc....) all inferior to males, not sexist, its just true, if you would like i could cite thousands of sources which show this to be the truth, and so right from the onset they are at a massive disadvantage, they wouldn't be chosen and recruited in anywhere near the numbers of male space marines (if at all) anyway, then by making the few females that pass into space marines there is nothing whatsoever to differentiate them (except being weaker and shorter)

and most readers (i started at 14) absolutely adore the idea of 8ft tall demigods striding across the galaxy , i love the idea of them being at the same age level as me ( i even had a period of depression when i hit 17 because i realized id never be space a marine lol), we are primarily guys i want a story revolving around guys.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Lost&Damned said:


> anyway, the way i see it females are physically (endurance, strength, speed, healing capacity, height, bone density, reaction times, cant handle pain aswell etc....) all inferior to males, not sexist, its just true, if you would like i could cite thousands of sources which show this to be the truth,


Actually that isn't true, at least not in the real life context. Sure you can say that on average a man will be stronger etc than a woman no problems there but the point is that there are some women who aren't weaker and all the other archetyping bullshit you mention yet they are excluded simply on the basis of sex.

The point of affirmative action and integration of women into military/traditional masculine roles isn't on the basis that the standard should be changed to allow for them but rather if they do meet the required standard then they should not be excluded on the basis of their gender.

This however has no relevance to this pointless thread what so ever. 40k is fiction guys, the figment of the imagination of a company that wants to sell miniatures to people. One of the reasons that the year 40,000 was chosen as the setting was to ensure it was as far removed from current reality as the Warhammer Fantasy is. It has little to no bearing on real life situations.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Just want to mention, for those here who have been pointing out that women are not as tough/cant handle as mucg pain as men. Im pretty sure child birth is no walk in the park; though being a man myself I am at the disadvantage of never being able to find out firat hand. (Though we certainly do have some female members here who have.)


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

i agree that for instance while males are naturally stronger than women, should a woman exercise she would be stronger than an average male, HOWEVER in for instance the olympic the pinnacle of physical achievement (like all space marine initiates are, unless they are very powerful psykers), the fastest a woman has ever ran 800m is 1 min 53 (or something very close to that) whereas the amateur time needed just to try and compete for an AMATEUR male is 1 min 47 and so since were talking about the creme of the crop of physical prowess males would be predominant.

but i agree, the authors can do what they want also @ darkreever
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051025073319.htm


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Because genetic enhancements and hormone treatment would not have any effect on this whatsoever.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Lost&Damned said:


> i agree that for instance while males are naturally stronger than women, should a woman exercise she would be stronger than an average male, HOWEVER in for instance the olympic the pinnacle of physical achievement


Incorrect, Blood Angel intake consists of the ragged, ill, mutated spawn of Baal. Nothing peak performance about any of them. The Tests are more tests of mental toughness than physical ability as the process of turning them into Space Marines covers the physical aspect. Also, they're children. 

Try to learn at least some of the fluff or you just sound like a twat. The only technical reason stopping them making female Space Marines is the gene implanting being bound to a y chromosome.


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## Nashnir (Apr 3, 2010)

I actually have no idea why there is a sudden rise in such topics across the board especially in games forums.

I whole heartedly agree with what SonofMalice said. There is quite frankly no reason for the lore to change just cause some one wants equal representation or rather gender mirrored representation. There are ample displays or rather representation of authoritative and capable females in WH40k as well as WHF. Just because there are no female Primarchs or astarte or rather there is no Empress doesn't mean the creator is misogynist. ( I hate that word )


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Though you have to admit, the topic is becoming something more and more frequently brought up.


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## Lord Commander Solus (Jul 26, 2012)

GabrialSagan said:


> Nothing is preventing someone from retconning the plot so that Lorgar, Magnus, Roboute Gulliman and Rogel Dorn were women.


You know, this is just so strange and altogether weird that I have no choice.

Going down the waterslide.

http://xkcd.com/1081/


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Lord Commander Solus said:


> You know, this is just so strange and altogether weird that I have no choice.
> 
> Going down the waterslide.
> 
> http://xkcd.com/1081/


OK, you get some rep just for referencing XKCD.com!! :victory:


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Chompy Bits said:


> Wait, the OP wants GW & BL to do away with well established, unique, decades old characteristics for two Imperial factions simply because he thinks it's a good idea and thinks it should be changed.
> 
> Yeah... good luck with that.


I'm fairly certain the OP is a she.

I will never understand things like this. Why does it matter if there's no women. It's not like there's going to be special rules that gives them an extra attack during that time of the month. 

Though that could be interesting. They gain an attack but Tyranids gain the initiative for sensing the blood.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Iron Angel said:


> Though you have to admit, the topic is becoming something more and more frequently brought up.


In the grim darkness of the far future there is only... women drivers in control of 17km long starships...

Oh shit.


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

I don't think that blacks are represented enough by GW, and this makes me angry. I don't care that I can model my figures however I want and still use them in games, I instead demand that GW not only from this point on have at least 10 black characters in every novel they publish, but also retcon at least three primarchs into black men. Because there could obviously be more black men in Warhammer, the fact that there aren't makes GW racists. Also, if you don't agree with me, or have a reason that I'm not right, you're a racist too.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Nave Senrag said:


> I don't think that blacks are represented enough by GW, and this makes me angry. I don't care that I can model my figures however I want and still use them in games, I instead demand that GW not only from this point on have at least 10 black characters in every novel they publish, but also retcon at least three primarchs into black men. Because there could obviously be more black men in Warhammer, the fact that there aren't makes GW racists. Also, if you don't agree with me, or have a reason that I'm not right, you're a racist too.


There are the Salamanders, but of course I think you mean African ? 
I take your point and I reckon it's pretty much spot on.


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

Magpie_Oz said:


> There are the Salamanders, but of course I think you mean African ?
> I take your point and I reckon it's pretty much spot on.


Yeah. People always seem to bring up the salamanders when black people are mentioned, and it never sits well with me that the example that the only example anyone ever has is the people who are only black due to a mutation. Barring the fact that they aren't even "black" in the context that is used.


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## Tempessst (Sep 9, 2012)

Honest question Nave, were you making a joke? or completely serious?


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

Tempessst said:


> Honest question Nave, were you making a joke? or completely serious?


Yeesh, I thought I was laying it on thick. That was a joke, yeah.

Well, not the second post. That really does concern me a bit.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Nave Senrag said:


> Yeah. People always seem to bring up the salamanders when black people are mentioned, and it never sits well with me that the example that the only example anyone ever has is the people who are only black due to a mutation. Barring the fact that they aren't even "black" in the context that is used.


Maybe, but it never sits well with me that people of African ancestry are referred to as "Blacks". 
It kinda torpedos your assertion for equality to use that term.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Nope, all the black guys are dead. Whenever a mortar was incpming, they would shout "Get Down!!!" and then the black guys would start dancing, and eventually made themselves extinct over 40,000 years of war.


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Maybe, but it never sits well with me that people of African ancestry are referred to as "Blacks".
> It kinda torpedos your assertion for equality to use that term.


It might just be over here, it's accepted to use blacks over "people of African descent". I hear "African-American" occasionally, but that has extremely limited applications. And in 40K it simply can't reasonably be used to apply at all.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

The orange sarcasm color needs to be used more often. In fact i think it needs to be a forum rule.(Like feygor after he has his artificial voice box fitted. Hold up your hand when you are being sarcastic.)

As for this argument. The fluff of the 40k universe is what it is. It is unfair, full of gender/racial/species/religious inequalities. Like it or don't. But it has(mostly )been there from the start, and if it bugs you that much, play something else. It is not meant to be a happy place. A wargame in a universe where 'there is only peace' is going to be a little slow.
I reiterate my main point. If you don't like the background to the point where you need to have large amounts of it changed to suit your requirements, play something else.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Vaz said:


> Nope, all the black guys are dead. Whenever a mortar was incpming, they would shout "Get Down!!!" and then the black guys would start dancing, and eventually made themselves extinct over 40,000 years of war.


You simply MUST tell your most recent VC winner that, I'm sure he'll get quite a LOL.............



shaantitus said:


> The fluff of the 40k universe is what it is. It is unfair, full of gender/racial/species/religious inequalities.


No where in the rules does it say what race people are. There are numerous examples in BL fiction of people of other racial ancestries. 

Most of us choose to depict our soldiers as Caucasians but there is no reason for them not to be anything else. 

My Space Marines are Australian.




Nave Senrag said:


> it's accepted to use blacks over "people of African descent".


Accepted by whom? Not by me it isn't


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## Tempessst (Sep 9, 2012)

Oh god, funny but terrible


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> You simply MUST tell your most recent VC winner that, I'm sure he'll get quite a LOL.............
> 
> 
> 
> No where in the rules does it say what race people are. There are numerous examples in BL fiction of people of other racial ancestries.


maybe not by color, but certainly by genetics. Mutation, deformity, abhumans etc. Race is not necessarily color.(I am not trying to pick a fight or say 40k is racist when applied to 20th century earth.)

Edit.
Maybe I am with the op but not you magpie.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

shaantitus said:


> maybe not by color, but certainly by genetics. Mutation, deformity, abhumans etc. Race is not necessarily color.(I am not trying to pick a fight or say 40k is racist when applied to 20th century earth.)
> 
> Edit.
> Maybe I am with the op but not you magpie.


Depends on how you classify "race". In that regard the 21st century is the only datum to go by isn't it?

But really the whole race thing is just a side issue. The point at issue is whether GW need to rewrite the background for the Space Marines to prove they aren't misogynist bigots.

Numerous reasons not to do this have been presented and the only thing in support of it has been the old nugget of "if you don't agree with me you're obviously too stupid".


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

Is this a sign of the times or what? Political correctness entering the 40k universe, the place I go to escape reality (which is funny because I live in Hawaii and love my reality... anyway...).

I would think that the reasons space marines are men is pretty straight forward. I am a US Marine, and women sometimes make an issue of becoming Marine Corps front line combatants. They want equality, and they want to be held to a lower standard because they can't compete as a whole against the men. Are there exceptions? Probably... but nothing worth the bother.

That all said, if they were going to make any changes they should reveal that Lorgar was a woman.


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## Kale Hellas (Aug 26, 2009)

I have an idea, we'll write a story, Good old angry marines versus the order of the sacred feminist, eventually you'll realise what you do in any argument about 40k do whatever the hell you want, just ask your opponent,so the fluff says no female space marines, ciaphas cain novel, inquisitor Amberley Vail (<-Female) saves peoples ass's ten times over in power armour, coincidently novel also includes sisters of battle saving peoples ass's, another leading character colonel regina kasteen her bolt pistol might as well be a bmg so what women aren't space marines do you see guys complaining when they can't represent themselves in a sisters of battle army, 

1- its a game
2- women are badass when they appear in fluff
3- choose slaaneshi if you really want marines chances are they got high and woke up as a chick (these things happen)
4- if you can't see my point in all of this maybe your just angry at men and not gw.

that is all


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## Shattertheirsky (May 26, 2012)

GabrialSagan said:


> Nothing is preventing someone from retconning the plot so that Lorgar, Magnus, Roboute Gulliman and Rogel Dorn were women.


Everything is preventing it. The community would be up in arms if suddenly it was written BTW three Primarchs are actually women and the books you spent 10 quid on to read about their exploits are actually nothing but bull of the highest order. You might as well say the Emperor has 17 heads and can breath fire, the Horus Heresy never happened, instead it was the Perturabo Heresy, and all that happened was the Iron warriors build a giant floating cow-shaped-spaceship, then crashed it into Terra after a drunken night out, Kharn the Betrayer lives in a monastery as a Space Catholic with Angron as chief monk, and finally Force Commander Boreal speaks like a normal person and doesn't say Spess....

It
Aint
Gonna
Happen!


----------



## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Kale Hellas said:


> I have an idea, we'll write a story, Good old angry marines versus the order of the sacred feminist, eventually you'll realise what you do in any argument about 40k do whatever the hell you want, just ask your opponent,so the fluff says no female space marines, ciaphas cain novel, inquisitor Amberley Vail (<-Female) saves peoples ass's ten times over in power armour, coincidently novel also includes sisters of battle saving peoples ass's, another leading character colonel regina kasteen her bolt pistol might as well be a bmg so what women aren't space marines do you see guys complaining when they can't represent themselves in a sisters of battle army,
> 
> 1- its a game
> 2- women are badass when they appear in fluff
> ...


Last time I checked Vail nearly got her ass handed to her by the nids. Cain and jurgen saved her.

And the SoB in that novel got owned in every imaginable way.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Nave Senrag said:


> I don't think that blacks are represented enough by GW, and this makes me angry. I don't care that I can model my figures however I want and still use them in games, I instead demand that GW not only from this point on have at least 10 black characters in every novel they publish, but also retcon at least three primarchs into black men. Because there could obviously be more black men in Warhammer, the fact that there aren't makes GW racists. Also, if you don't agree with me, or have a reason that I'm not right, you're a racist too.


Yeah? Yeah!? Well, I want Scottish Imperial Guard!

Oh, wait......

But on a serious note I - like others here - don't feel that wimmin spess mahreens is a good idea. We have Sisters, Death Cult and Inquisitors. Not to mention the other races.
If it ain't broke....


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

GabrialSagan said:


> A lot of good points are being raised. So let me rephrase my argument.
> 
> In American law GW owns the copyrights and trademarks for 40K and all its derivatives. That means that they have the power to unilaterally change any part of canon. So if tomorrow GW published a Deathwatch novel where the protagonist is a female ultramarine, no amount of fan griping would change the fact that there can be female space marines.
> 
> ...


they are still not going to change the fact that marines are male, in a sense i suppose the SOB are but to them the fake god is real! as he is the millions upon billions of imperial citizens, the Arbites, the Astropaths, Imperial Navy, Inquistion and Imperial Guard.

to them he is not a fake god, he is very real and ten thousand years of indoctination by the Imperial Creed is not going to change that. The Space Marines know that Humans need something to believe in, they know that mortals have always believed in a higher being, rather it be the emperor then the forces of chaos. 

To them his is a powerful grandfather, a human who was more then that but not a god, thier primarchs are an extension of that philosophy and so by dint of gene manipulation are they. However many ways you argue this GW will NEVER change the rules.

its not perfect when the male takes the Geneseed on occassions and whatever flaw be it geneseed or the human who it is being implamented into. But the fact remains that Space Marines will always be male, the women can serve as members of the chapters/legion staff, or in thier own Guard, she can be an Arbites, a governor, an inquisitor, a sister of battle, a commissar but SHE WILL NEVER be a Space Marine.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

You are missing the point. The accuracy of the notion is irrelevant. It is the Sisters' fervent and fanatical belief that distinguishes them so heavily and that unified and overpowering force of will has an effect on the warp as all humans are connected to the warp even in a minor way. Thus the "miracles" are simply a minor benevolent warp manifestation _perceived_ as the favor of the Emperor brought about by unified power of will, akin to how the WAAAAGGGGHHH works for the Orks. Whether or not what they believe is accurate is irrelevant. It is the fervency and fanaticism with which they believe it.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

darkreever said:


> Just want to mention, for those here who have been pointing out that women are not as tough/cant handle as mucg pain as men. Im pretty sure child birth is no walk in the park; though being a man myself I am at the disadvantage of never being able to find out firat hand. (Though we certainly do have some female members here who have.)


yeah i have two of them little reminders although my two are older now, but i certainly would not bet a space marine, chaos or otherwise could pass anything between a 4lb and 9lb little human from thier fanny without screaming blue bloody murder. It certainly is NO walk in the park


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Nurgle marines would get FNP.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

Nave Senrag said:


> I don't think that blacks are represented enough by GW, and this makes me angry. I don't care that I can model my figures however I want and still use them in games, I instead demand that GW not only from this point on have at least 10 black characters in every novel they publish, but also retcon at least three primarchs into black men. Because there could obviously be more black men in Warhammer, the fact that there aren't makes GW racists. Also, if you don't agree with me, or have a reason that I'm not right, you're a racist too.


Salamanders anyone??????


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Need a nice big Repentia Engine hug yeah!

Sallamanders aren't black (African), they are black like ash, since they are mutants and carry no ethnic and cultural background which makes them "Black".

Let's face it, 40k was invented by white guys from a country which, up until 100 years ago, treated other nations of color as their personal colonies to be extorted as they pleased. African Space Marines? This is the adolescent fantasy vision of AngloSaxons where the men are men, the women are off somewhere else (taking care of temples and home) and the galaxy is white unless you're a dirty a mutant. 

The writers never even bothered adding in ethnic diversity despite the human race spanning the galaxies. The closest we get are the Tallarn who are essentially swarthy white guys in desert rags with no authentic Arab culture or ********* cavalry which I'm pretty sure were just left in the game so they could charge more for the actually cool DKoK Riders. 

Seems pretty square that somewhere in the dark ages of technology the Aryen agenda had it's way.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

I think you could take any "protected class" currently defined by the US Government and make the same basic argument as GabrielSagan... race, religion, color, national origin, age, sex, familial status, veteran status, disability status, and genetic information. From this standpoint, I find the OP specious, especially by throwing firebombs like misogny and bigotry and then cloaking themselves in their own self-righteousness... I reserve self-righteousness for myself and all those who agree with me! EVERY person has biases, whether you think you do or not, it's part of the human condition and evolutionary biology is now teaching us that the trait has helped us evolved as a species... how's that for a WH40K theme.

The difference? Reality. I enjoy reading both history and fiction that highlights exactly why, in our incresingly enlightened societies (across virtually all human cultures, currently), the struggle against discrimination/opression is so extraordinary in all of human history. I see the fiction of WH40K similarly to a concept expressed in Arthur C. Clark's Rama series, that while our society advances in so many ways, our own history shows that cultural backsliding has happened and will do so again relative to our contemporary civilization(s). The grimdark of 40K is an excellent example of the self-destructive nature every human harbors, even as its wrapped inside a galaxy-spanning civilization that has magic-like technology.

Do I care that, should I want, I can't have the female gender for one out of ten/one-hundred/one-thousand fictional roles in a fictional future based on a fictional role-playing game? No. I think to myself, "I'm glad we're breaking down those barriers in our real current society, because that kinda' sucks" and get on with enjoying the game. I also don't think of the makers of that game as emotional cripples who would be better shunned and harranged, because I can't play a (insert latinized name of whatever role in WH40K) from the perspective of any of the protected classes.

If you're that disgusted with the game, truly, then vote with your feet and pocket book, that's what capitalism is all about. Go play one of the Star Trek deriviatives, which seeks that kind of equality in it's basic concept. GW will get the message through loss of sales, everyone will point to heresy-online as a bastion of predjudice, then someone in the GW corporate executive office will start to think, "hmmmmm, female Astares and Primarchs, I think I read some well-written Homebrew Fluff like that, which few people seemed to care about, before that website went under."


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Since this forum has an argument about this every week I hardly think its a subject "no one" cares about.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

What difference does it make though. Intelligent people realise that, and live their lives fine. They accept the status quo.

Other people try to make female astartes and think they are being the suffragettes/martin luther king, and end up looking esther rantzen or a kid whos just working his way through the "why is the sky blue" stage of his life. Neither is particularly attractive and both are equally strangleworthy annoying whenever I see th.


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

Iron Angel said:


> Since this forum has an argument about this every week I hardly think its a subject "no one" cares about.



Truff. I care enough to say it's just nonsense.


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## Josie (Jul 8, 2012)

GabrialSagan said:


> Just because I know I am right doesn't mean I expect other people to see it. That would imply that other people are as smart as I am.


Moronic.. By your logic there should be male sisters of battle. By all means bring in female chapter serfs or attendants for the tabletop game for the space marines, just as SOB's have male priests and assassins, but the plain and simple of it it, Girls don't want to be hulking brutes lacking any form of personality. Sisters of Battle are cool because they're not modified or enhanced, just put in armour. Space marines aren't really men any more tbh.

You think you're some equality crusader but its simply like this; Boys don't want Girl Space marines, Girls don't want Girl Space marines either. Stop trying to be a hero, and if you are a girl....You let the side down big time...

J x


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## Shattertheirsky (May 26, 2012)

Josie said:


> and if you are a girl....You let the side down big time...


Nothing like a bit of girl on girl action (Hot fuzz quote, please don't think I'm a chauvinist pig XD )


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Vaz said:


> What difference does it make though. Intelligent people realise that, and live their lives fine. They accept the status quo.
> 
> Other people try to make female astartes and think they are being the suffragettes/martin luther king, and end up looking esther rantzen or a kid whos just working his way through the "why is the sky blue" stage of his life. Neither is particularly attractive and both are equally strangleworthy annoying whenever I see th.


I think there are a lot of black people over here in the USA that would disagree with you that Martin Luther King was strangleworthy but idk, maybe you associate more with the people who killed him. Yeah, I know that's not what you meant but it sure is the tone you bring across. 

Anyhow, it's obvious that for plot and fluff reasons, females do not fit in the Space Marines and most reasonable people don't expect to see them added. However what isn't acceptable is GW's blatant ignoring of females in general and different races of Humans such as Africans, Asians and Arabs.

Amazingly Dark Eldar were a surprise lately that included some good female models, but as far as Humans are concerned I do not believe GW has produced a single female human model in over 10 years. *WTF is up with that???* :no:


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

Arcane said:


> Amazingly Dark Eldar were a surprise lately that included some good female models, but as far as Humans are concerned I do not believe GW has produced a single female human model in over 10 years. *WTF is up with that???* :no:


Good point at last in favor of women. Everyone knows that females make the best models! :laugh:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

GabrialSagan said:


> I read it, I just disagree with it. In the age of Korra and Katnis boys don't care if some of the heroes are girls. You really think that a 40k novel is going to sell less copies with a girl on the cover than a guy?


Would a book which centers around a female character in the 41st millennium sell considerably more than one centered around a male? If they made female marine miniatures, would the number of tactical marine boxes sold per month increase by a considerable amount? If you cannot definitively state that they would, then GW will not give a single fuck. I trust GW to eek every last penny that they can out of their IP, so if one day they find that fem-marines would in fact sell better than man-marines you will have your female marines. Until that day, life's a bitch.


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## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

Would just like to chime in, Im on the side of the people who say there is no need for female SM. The SOB and SM have distinct charachterisitics which make them unique and cooler imo.
ALso, on a side note, to the person who said that minorities werent present, I find 40k to be a much more open universe than most I have seen. They represent fairly well in a large portion of the backstory and BL books.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Arcane said:


> However what isn't acceptable is GW's blatant ignoring of females in general and different races of Humans such as Africans, Asians and Arabs.


Why isn't that acceptable? Why does Games Workshop _have_ to produce models to cover every (or even just every major) real-life culture and race? As far as I know, Games Workshop is primarily marketed at teenage males in the West. Thus it is no suprise that most of the models are white. If Games Workshop begins to expand into the Middle East or the Heart of Africa then you can expect them to showcase a wider variety of models. Though having said that, you paint the models yourself, so you can just as easily paint them a skin colour other than white. 

40k is big enough and accomodating enough to create your own unique Imperial Guard Regiments or Space Marine Chapters based on other real-life races and cultures. But you can't expect Games Workshop themselves to do that if such things don't appeal to their primary market base. They are a business after all.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I just wanted to stop by and say this. 



*ahem* 






This thread is funny. 






Also, people lost their shit when c'tan were splintered and the necrons got given personalities. 

People whined unbelievably when Grey Knights got their own daemon prince and suddenly became buddies with xenos. 

Imagine the shitstorm that would come out of this. many things have been left reasonably malleable in terms of lore. This is not one of them. 


Further, as said there is no need for it to be. 

On the female models part, assuming the sisters ever get a rerelease I assume that will make up for it?


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

I finally found the Curt Vonnegut Jr short story, Harrison Bergeron, which explains exactly why the Emperor, the title character, created the Astares and Imperium in the form in which we get to play WH40K, after he experienced the "Extreme Equality" future to which we are heading. A synopsis:

"It is the year 2081. Because of Amendments 211, 212, and 213 to the Constitution, every American is fully equal, meaning that no one is smarter, better-looking, stronger, or faster than anyone else. The Handicapper General and a team of agents ensure that the laws of equality are enforced. The government forces citizens to wear "handicaps" (i.e. - a mask if they are too handsome or beautiful, earphones with deafening radio signals to make intelligent people unable to concentrate and form thoughts, and heavy weights to slow down the too strong or fast).

One April, fourteen-year-old Harrison Bergeron, a highly intelligent, handsome child, is taken away from his parents, George and Hazel, by the government. George and Hazel aren’t fully aware of the tragedy. Hazel’s lack of awareness is due to 'average' intelligence, which in 2081, is the politically correct way of referring to someone of well-below average intelligence. George can’t comprehend the tragedy since the law requires him to wear the radio ear piece for twenty-four hours a day because he is of above average intelligence. The government broadcasts noise over these radios to interrupt the thoughts of intelligent people like George.

Hazel and George are watching ballerinas dance on TV. Hazel has been crying, though she can’t remember why. She remarks on the beauty of the dance. For a few moments, George reflects on the dancers, who are weighed down to counteract their gracefulness and masked to cover up their good looks. They have been handicapped so that TV viewers won’t feel bad about their own appearance and hence will feel equally as talented and good-looking. Because of their handicaps, the dancers aren’t very good. A noise interrupts George’s thoughts: two of the dancers onscreen hear the noise, too; apparently, they are smart and must wear radios as well.

Hazel thinks George looks exhausted and urges him to lie down and rest his “handicap bag,” forty-seven pounds of weight placed in a bag and locked around George’s neck. He says he hardly notices the weight anymore. Hazel suggests taking a few of the weights out of the bag, but he says if everyone broke the law, society would return to its old competitive ways. Hazel says she would hate that. A noise interrupts the conversation, and George can’t remember what they were talking about.

On TV, a news reporter with a speech impediment attempts to read a bulletin. The speech impediment was given to him by the government because he is too well-spoken. He can’t overcome his impediment, so he hands the bulletin to a ballerina to read. Hazel, who is too dumb to realize that the reporter was handicapped by the government, commends him for working with his God-given abilities and says he should get a raise simply for trying so hard. The ballerina begins reading in her natural, beautiful voice, then apologizes and switches to a growly voice so that her voice will not sound nicer than anyone else's voice. The bulletin says that Harrison has escaped from prison.

A photo of Harrison appears on the screen. He is wearing the handicaps meant to counteract his strength, intelligence, and good looks. The photo shows that he is seven feet tall and covered in 300 pounds of metal. He is wearing huge earphones, rather than a small radio, and big glasses meant to blind him and give him headaches. He is also wearing a red rubber nose and black caps over his teeth. His eyebrows are shaved off. All in an attempt to "handicap" his intelligence and good looks.

After a rumbling noise, the photo on the Bergerons’ TV screen is replaced with an image of Harrison himself, who has stormed the studio. In an attempt to overthrow the government and its handicapping systems, he says that he is the emperor, the greatest ruler in history, and that everyone must obey him. Then he rips off all of his handicaps. He looks like a god. He says that the first woman brave enough to stand up will be his empress. A ballerina rises to her feet. Harrison removes her handicaps and mask, revealing a beautiful woman.

He orders the musicians to play, saying he will make them royalty if they do their best. Unhappy with their initial attempt, Harrison conducts, waving a couple of musicians in the air like batons, and sings. They try again and do better. After listening to the music, Harrison and his empress dance. Defying gravity, they move through the air, flying thirty feet upward to the ceiling, which they kiss. Then, still in the air, they kiss each other.

Diana Moon Glampers, the Handicapper General, comes into the studio and kills Harrison and the empress with a shotgun. Turning the gun on the musicians, she orders them to put their handicaps on. The Bergerons’ screen goes dark. George, who has left the room to get a beer, returns and asks Hazel why she has been crying. She says something sad happened on TV, but she can’t remember exactly what. He urges her not to remember sad things. A noise sounds in George’s head, and Hazel says it sounded like a doozy. He says she can say that again, and she repeats that it sounded like a doozy."


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## Tempessst (Sep 9, 2012)

Love that story


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## Bakunin (Mar 27, 2010)

darkreever said:


> Actually yes they do, because the concept of warhammer 40k is the creation of Rick Priestly. That the company games workshop invested in his idea, and see a constant return of their investment (that thing that generally happens when you invest in a profitable idea), does not mean that it ceases to be his property...


Actually your completely wrong on this point. The intellectual property that makes up 40K (and any other GW game) is completely owned by GW. That isw the way they work and will not work with anyone unless they agree to these conditions.

Rick Priestly no longer works for GW but does work for Warlord games. He has always been more interested in the actual workings of wargames rather than the fluff. This can be seen in both his developemtns of Warmaster, moving it away from the fantasy world and making it into a functioning historical wargame system (http://www.ricks-warmaster.com/) and also in his regular column for 'Wargames, Soldiers and Strategy' magazine (http://www.wssmagazine.com/cms/) where he continuously makes clear the thing he is always most interested in is a fun game. 

The setting of WH40K was simply something he wrote, with his tongue firmly in his cheek, to provide a fun background for his sci-fi skirmish game. The background ahs taken a life of it's own, inspiring a complex universe, but that is all it is.

I happen to agree with Rick Priestly that if you play it should be for enjoyment, which is why I can't find opponents and tend to only steeer clear of the competition and power gaming that makes up alot of the GW customer base. I also happen to like the universe he accidentally created because it is basically a distoriton of our universe with a lot of extremes. I'm also interested in trying to game in the '1938: A very British Civil War' http://www.btinternet.com/~jprice9/ universe since it seems fun. Most modern historic wargaming is set in something that is a bit too real and horrific to justify a fun game for me, while this, llike 40K plays with reality for a fun setting.

But to think of 40K as something that is real and unchangeable, set in canon by Rick PRiestly is a complete mistake. It is GW's product fo selling models. Fortunately it is a good product and the models are well made. ENjoy it and play with it and if you can learn while playing...


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## Bakunin (Mar 27, 2010)

Vaz said:


> They initially did take women into the Space Marine Legoons at first. However, women in bodybags was a distasteful idea, especially considering the supposed invulnerable idea of the Astartes, so they were given non combat roles, like Logistics and Transport drivers or pilots.
> 
> Until they realised that in the far future there are still women drivers, and when you at the controls of a 70 ton Land Raider thats a major disaster.
> 
> Instead they got put in Astartes soup kitchens and told to make sandwiches. Or clean up. And have dinner on the table ready.


Idiot.

The year is 2012 not 1972 and jokes like this weren't even funny then. Thats why only idiots tell them now.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> Idiot.
> 
> The year is 2012 not 1972 and jokes like this weren't even funny then. Thats why only idiots tell them now.


 Vaz has not yet made it to the 20th century as yet, cut him some slack.


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## Bakunin (Mar 27, 2010)

Nave Senrag said:


> I don't think that blacks are represented enough by GW, and this makes me angry. I don't care that I can model my figures however I want and still use them in games, I instead demand that GW not only from this point on have at least 10 black characters in every novel they publish, but also retcon at least three primarchs into black men. Because there could obviously be more black men in Warhammer, the fact that there aren't makes GW racists. Also, if you don't agree with me, or have a reason that I'm not right, you're a racist too.


Read the novels and you'll see that they are represented and your sarcasm is out of place. The real question is why the 'Eavy Metal painters don't paint black characters (and the answer is that they are white, work in Nottingham and paitn what is familiar in their life). 

But, your weak sarcasm aside, if you really want the truth, the majority of characters in 40K probably would be black. Your just presuming that because no skin colour is mentioned they re all white, against all evidencce of how the human species is evolving.


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## Shattertheirsky (May 26, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> Idiot.
> 
> The year is 2012 not 1972 and jokes like this weren't even funny then. Thats why only idiots tell them now.


The year is 2012 and that is EXACTLY what is still going on in British and American armed forces, but to be honest, its completely fair. So forget your 1972 and get off your high horse.

PS: Vaz isn't an idiot, he's a marine, theres a difference, idiots do stupid things to the detriment of others. Royal marines do stupid things to the detriment of the enemy XD


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## Bakunin (Mar 27, 2010)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Vaz has not yet made it to the 20th century as yet, cut him some slack.


Sorry, that was a bit harsh. No real offence meant.

I'm slowly moving through this thread and inbetween some interesting points, I'm getting a bit frustrated at comments like that. 

I will actually post on topic in a moment and accept (andmaybe reply to) all criticism. 

No offence meant, I'll keep it friendly from now on k:


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## Bakunin (Mar 27, 2010)

Shattertheirsky said:


> Vaz isn't an idiot, he's a marine, theres a difference, idiots do stupid things to the detriment of others. Royal marines do stupid things to the detriment of the enemy XD


OK deadly serious now.

If he is a Marine he should realise the role that women play in the armed forces and not have that attitude.

Secondly, Royal Marines also do stupid things to the detriment of themselves. My friend Sam's stupid thing was joining up and getting killed on his second tour of Afghanistan. He was also stupid on his first tour, but fortunately he lived and that won him the MC.

Just because someone is in the forces doesn't mean we can't disagree with them. If it is true that they are fighting for our freedom (and I don't believe this but that is another very long debate) then we also have the freedom to criticise and speak our minds (and if need be change our minds).


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

That's good.  

And for the record, I laughed at Vaz' joke. Getting offended and offending in return when you're posting in an online forum never leads to anything productive.  

So let's leave that one right there. k:


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## VX485 (Feb 17, 2011)

I've probably missed it somewhere in the preceding posts but here's my 2 cents on the topic. 

The current fluff with marines and the SOB is set so really shouldn't be changed however that doesn't mean i wouldn't like to see at least see female models for various codex entries. Take a look at the IG codex, can pretty much have a female variant for every entry.

Also if you really want a female space marine chapter don't forget there are still 2 missing/unknown Primachs.


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## cheeto (Apr 1, 2011)

Bakunin said:


> OK deadly serious now.
> 
> If he is a Marine he should realise the role that women play in the armed forces and not have that attitude.
> 
> ...


You are the master of taking this absurd thread seriously! Go sit in the corner and don't leave it until you have finished reading some Sandy Mitchell.


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## Josie (Jul 8, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> OK deadly serious now.
> 
> If he is a Marine he should realise the role that women play in the armed forces and not have that attitude.
> 
> ...


Three things:
1: A woman has yet to pass the Commando course and be accepted into the marines, so saying he of all people should no better means fuck all.

2:The armed forces is about protecting democracy, not practising it. Frankly I don't think Vaz gives a flying fuck what you or anyone else thinks or disagrees with about him and his posts. 

3:Most forces members are stupid, but its stupidly brave. I'd bet anything that your 'stupid' friend Sam was an insanely brave guy...


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## Shattertheirsky (May 26, 2012)

@Bakunin: I'll get you some BURN cream for the above XD


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Shattertheirsky said:


> The year is 2012 and that is EXACTLY what is still going on in British and American armed forces, but to be honest, its completely fair. So forget your 1972 and get off your high horse.
> 
> PS: Vaz isn't an idiot, he's a marine, theres a difference, idiots do stupid things to the detriment of others. Royal marines do stupid things to the detriment of the enemy XD


And the game is set in the 41st millennium and isn't realistic so why can't Gamesworkshop take some time in 10 years to make a human female? 

So why the fuck are you all comparing this fictional game to realistic settings and real current world events? There's nothing stopping GW from making more female models other than it's adolescent executive's fear of cooties and anything with tits on it (see new Daemonettes). They might as well put a boyz only sign painted in crayon over the door of Warhammer World and stop selling pink paint because it's emasculating.


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## Bakunin (Mar 27, 2010)

OK having waded through the 12 pages here is my view. It all comes down to testosterone (and other hormones) and the bodies ability to take them.

A Space Marine is, and always was meant to be, the ultimate fighting machine. To make a person this they are given extra organs and built up into the ultimate fighting machine. For this to worl, the body has to be at the right stage and be ready to accept and grow these implants. That is why a pubescent boy is needed. One who's body is naturally going through changes and providing the right hormones and levels of testosterone to kick start the implanted organs.

If a pubescent girl was used the wrong hormones would be running through the body and the changes would not be kick started and the organs would die. The result? No marine or teenage girl.

So why just men in the first place? Simple. Testosterone increases strenght and agression and men are physically stronger. You want your gentically modified super soldiers as strong as possible.

There is also the very real fact that the Imperium is not a utopia and has never meant to be a utopia. As I mentionedc earlier, it was designed as an interesting sci fi setting for wargames. It borrows from several other sci-fi settings, but it is meant to be harch. This means that everything is not perfect and inequalitys exsist in race, class and gender and the whole society is based upon these inequlitys.

The way each planet in the imperium is run varies, with somebeing nicer than others, but when it comes to getting things done by the imperium, the inequalitys will be exploited and the strongest will be used for super soldiers. Women might be in the Imperial Guard, but this is because they can fight and anyone who can fight is used. For the elite they are more selective.

Finally there is one more possible explaination. That is gender.If your going to seriously force 2012 values onto the year 40,000 then this has to be considered. Supposing a teenage femail body could be activated and turned into an astarte, the result would not be a femail astarte, but another astarte, similair in figure and stature to the other astartes. If only a smaller astarte could be achieved then they would not be selected.

The idea of gender and gender roles is socially constructed and the chapters that make up the space marines have only one role: that of warrior. There for there would be no difference in physique (other than between the legs) and role for male and female marines, resulting in no actual difference. Male and female would do exactly the same thing in training, combat and within day to day chapter roles, while, due to the gentic engineering, looking identical. If this is the result, why change the fluff just to make what is a dystopia abit more equal in the real world eyes?

Why not also introduce more democracy to the imperium? Or perhaps a bit more equality between xenos? (I do believe that racism in the 40K universe becomes irrelevant once humans meet aliens. Until then it is alive and well on some worlds and other worlds have grown out of it. It's a big galaxy...)

The point is that 40K is meant to show the dark side of humanity. Uncontrolled hatred is called chaos while controlled hatred is called the Imperium. While individuals are probably good, the setting definitely isn't. This means dreams of inequality end up watering down this setting and taking away from it. To have all male Space Marines might of started as a marketing ploy, but it also represents the logic of a dark twisted future. As long as the reality of the fiction and the game doesn't get mixed up with the reality of our day to day lives I don't see a problem. It might even tell us something about the world we live in.


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## Shattertheirsky (May 26, 2012)

Arcane said:


> And the game is set in the 41st millennium and isn't realistic so why can't Gamesworkshop take some time in 10 years to make a human female?
> 
> So why the fuck are you all comparing this fictional game to realistic settings and real current world events? There's nothing stopping GW from making more female models other than it's adolescent executive's fear of cooties and anything with tits on it (see new Daemonettes). They might as well put a boyz only sign painted in crayon over the door of Warhammer World and stop selling pink paint because it's emasculating.


No, and I totally agree with you. GW SHOULD make more female models, just not for Space Marines, but every other race (Almost, not orks *Shudder*). I was drawing the comparison that if our society at the moment doesn't approve of female soldiers, then GW obviously does not want to go against this, hence the lack of any new female models.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Bakunin said:


> The intellectual property that makes up 40K (and any other GW game) is completely owned by GW. That isw the way they work and will not work with anyone unless they agree to these conditions.
> 
> Rick Priestly no longer works for GW


Huh, I actually did not know that (I play the game and work with the huge amount of fluff contained within, the internal politics and things like that are like plagues to me.)

Well, learn something new every day.


Not sure if that information destroys might point in that post, or hits/diminishes it a bit; but seeing as the OP hasn't posted in the last four or five of these seven pages (to my knowledge) I don't particularly care.


As for more female models in 40k, where would you want to see those models? Guard? So what, now we are going to have form fitting armour rather than give everyone a mass produced and functional piece of kit that can be used by just about anyone. (And do you really want to see some female Catachan soldiers?)

Eldar and Dark Eldar? I think we have them (though I guess a few more options wouldn't hurt now would it?)

Lets just stay away from the Orks; though female cultists or fanatics would be pretty cool.


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## Bakunin (Mar 27, 2010)

Josie said:


> Three things:
> 1: A woman has yet to pass the Commando course and be accepted into the marines, so saying he of all people should no better means fuck all.
> 
> 2:The armed forces is about protecting democracy, not practising it. Frankly I don't think Vaz gives a flying fuck what you or anyone else thinks or disagrees with about him and his posts.
> ...



1: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1395974/First-woman-wins-Marines-green-beret.html

2: If you don't want opinion, don't post on a formu that encourages it. I was harsh with my reply, but vaz being a Marine is irrelevant and doesn't make his posts untouchable.

3: Bravery does not make soldiers deaths any easier or automatically make their deaths worth while. I'd happily debate what is a moral war with you all night but this is the wrong forum for it. Lets stick to 40K fluff and not bore everyone else :grin:


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## Josie (Jul 8, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> 1: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1395974/First-woman-wins-Marines-green-beret.html
> 
> 2: If you don't want opinion, don't post on a formu that encourages it. I was harsh with my reply, but vaz being a Marine is irrelevant and doesn't make his posts untouchable.
> 
> 3: Bravery does not make soldiers deaths any easier or automatically make their deaths worth while. I'd happily debate what is a moral war with you all night but this is the wrong forum for it. Lets stick to 40K fluff and not bore everyone else :grin:


1: As above, learn something new every day. But still, she won't be a 'proper' frontline marine even after passing.

2: Thats not what I'm saying, I'm saying everybody makes innapropriate jokes on here and nobody really cares if people get offended. If you take great offence to it don't complain about it, because at the end of the day....Nobody cares.

3: I could go on for hours on why you're wrong but yeah, lets just leave it


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

:laugh:

Bakunin, you have just made my night. Go cry some more over a blatant piss take.


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

Shattertheirsky said:


> GW SHOULD make more female models, just not for Space Marines, but every other race (Almost, not orks *Shudder*).





darkreever said:


> Lets just stay away from the Orks; though female cultists or fanatics would be pretty cool.


Having seen the Ork cheerleaders in Bloodbowl, I think this is something everyone can agree on.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

What has been seen...


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## sea dragons (Jan 14, 2008)

ok ok so i got fed up with reading from page 8. so sorry if im just repeating what someone else has already said.

the fact remains that 40k is a GAME its not real and at some point male or female we will all stop playing it at some point.

adding female SM's (right or wrong) at this point of development is unrealistic. the basis of the game and fluff is already set and won't to be changed not because it should or shouldnt but because it can't. it is already stated in god knows how many places that women cant be SM's due to BLA BLA BLA ETC to long to list them all out. and for GW to change it now would probable cause a rift in the gamers and a logistical nightmare to change and reprint every relevent document which could lead people saying bugger it not playing that anymore. which means less money for them.

now im not saying i wouldn't like to see female spacemarines but rather than having mixed chapters you would more likely find Female chapters and Male chapters. with all the fluff out there about genetic markers meaning only males can be marines existing chapters would have to stay as they are. thus any female marines would have to be an experiment in creating a female chapter. for those who are interested im going to bring up another taboo subject lol if you are dead set saying "yes i want female spacemarines and i dont care what all the fluff says. then write your own fluff that the lost legions were female" they are an open book left by GW for gamers to be creative


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

sea dragons said:


> adding female SM's (right or wrong) at this point of development is unrealistic. the basis of the game and fluff is already set and won't to be changed not because it should or shouldnt but because it can't. it is already stated in god knows how many places that women cant be SM's due to BLA BLA BLA ETC to long to list them all out. and for GW to change it now would probable cause a rift in the gamers and a logistical nightmare to change and reprint every relevent document which could lead people saying bugger it not playing that anymore. which means less money for them.


ooo oooo oooo! *puts hand up* WRONG! (Actually 'Inaccurate' is a better word)




















 Canon Female Space Marines!

Alice


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

SGMAlice said:


> Canon Female Space Marines!


Oh, wow. 

This has to be from the Rogue Trader era since there are role-play elements in the scenario (as well as mentions of "Ancient Slann"). Oh and I love the "Lukaas" and "Speelberg" references.

I feel I should mention that I have concluded two deals recently. One was for 16 Rogue Trade space marine minis. They are lead and are on a smaller scale compared to the current marines. This was going to be an issue as the scale was different enough. What was I going to do with smaller space marines?

My second deal was for Orks. The guy I brought them from didn't like the hair squigs on the orks' heads so took a razor saw to them. I found a dozen in a bitz bag. I considered taking the wrapped cylinder bit and making cigars, which would be cool, but what to do about the flowing hair?

I am so going to make those Little Sisters of Purification from that second pic. :laugh: (I'm seriously going to have to find decal paper now. No way am I freehanding that symbol.)

@Alice: I wish I could rep you. You have my thanks.


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

Your welcome 

Its quite possible i take a little (Read: WAY!) too much pleasure in pulling out those images but they are Canon and even the most hardened 'Fan Boy' cannot argue with them.

Alice


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## Cyric313 (Feb 18, 2010)

SGMAlice said:


> Your welcome
> 
> Its quite possible i take a little (Read: WAY!) too much pleasure in pulling out those images but they are Canon and even the most hardened 'Fan Boy' cannot argue with them.
> 
> Alice


Well technically one can argue that it does not say they are actual Adeptus Astartes only female space marines, and that can mean they are just regular soldiers with power armor but not as fanatical as Sororitas.

I say this because both Sororitas and Mechanicus are named by their adeptus names and the marines are not.


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

Cyric313 said:


> Well technically one can argue that it does not say they are actual Adeptus Astartes only female space marines, and that can mean they are just regular soldiers with power armor but not as fanatical as Sororitas.
> 
> I say this because both Sororitas and Mechanicus are named by their adeptus names and the marines are not.


Huh?  What? .......

Space Marines = Adeptus Astartes = Space Marines......


Whatever you're on, you can keep it.

Alice

P.S. Was that rude? i cant help but think it sounds that way despite its intent.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Take that, fluff nazis!

Excellent stuff, Alice.



Cyric313 said:


> Well technically one can argue that it does not say they are actual Adeptus Astartes only female space marines, and that can mean they are just regular soldiers with power armor but not as fanatical as Sororitas.
> 
> I say this because both Sororitas and Mechanicus are named by their adeptus names and the marines are not.


This is a really sad attempt.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Is it really canon though?

So far we have one example of female Space Marines, back from the dim dark days of Rogue Trader, when the fluff wasn't nailed down. In that period Guilliman wasn't a primarch and Tigurius was half eldar. Both of those are now incorrect. 

Since then we've have a multitude of sources saying only men can be Space Marines and not a single other example of female Space Marines.


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## daxxglax (Apr 24, 2010)

I guess male-only Space Marines make sense, given that the means to create a Space Marine were developed by one dude 10,000 years ago, and given that nobody really understands science or technology in the 41st millennium, nobody knows/can figure out how do adapt the radical physical changes to the female anatomy. Maybe the Emperor was just lazy and thought "Maaan, I don't want to reconfigure this procedure for any other body types."
Sure, plenty of the Rogue Trader fluff has been retconned, but I don't think any damning Word of Gods have been made regarding the Little Sisters. In such an enormous universe as 40K, it is entirely possible that the science/procedure to create female Space Marines was rediscovered in some aspect. 

I am really disappointed in not seeing more women in the IG/Inquisition/Cultist ranges. The Imperial Guard and Chaos Cultists are both drawn from diverse populations. I mean, the Imperium's greatest resource is people, so there should be plenty of representation. And the Inquisition has several male Inquisitor models but only one female one. I do like the presence of both sexes in the Eldar/Dark Eldar. They've advanced to the point where gender differences no longer matter.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Rems said:


> Is it really canon though?
> 
> So far we have one example of female Space Marines, back from the dim dark days of Rogue Trader, when the fluff wasn't nailed down. In that period Guilliman wasn't a primarch and Tigurius was half eldar. Both of those are now incorrect.
> 
> Since then we've have a multitude of sources saying only men can be Space Marines and not a single other example of female Space Marines.


Because both of those things were directly retconned. GW came out and literally said "Guilliman is now a primarch", though not as shorthand as that.

What exactly are these "multitudes" of sources? Nothing directly retcons the existence of the Sisters of Purification or the other several legions the article says exists. Nothing actually _says_ only men can be space marines which is why the contention exists in the first place.

Think about it. GW says "Orks are asexual", straight to the point, and no one tries to make orks with genders. GW says "Eldar and humans can't interbreed" and people don't try to make the argument they can. Yet apparently GW has said "Only men can be Space Marines" and its this one point in the fluff that GW has laid out that people keep defying for some reason.

The reason is GW has never said that. It has been alluded to somewhat, and the fluff nazis have certainly had a field day making speculation and hypotheses about why it wouldn't work and then citing these theories as fact, but the simple fact of the matter says the concept has precedent and theres nothing that actually retcons that precedent, so the possiblity does exist, and all things considered, isn't even a possibility, and more like a fact that gets glazed over, like women in the Guard or women in the Tau. They exist but get talked about seldom to none.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

It directly says in 'Creation of A Space Marine', which appeared first in Index Astartes and later in other sources that only men can be made into Space Marines. I'd quote the passage but i don't have a copy at hand.

I do however have a copy of Heresy: Betrayal which also details the creation procedure. Page 28 it states "...only males can be subject to the transformation". 

It is now canon, and has been for a while, that only men can be Space Marines, it is directly stated, there's no contention.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> The reason is GW has never said that. It has been alluded to somewhat, and the fluff nazis have certainly had a field day making speculation and hypotheses about why it wouldn't work and then citing these theories as fact, but the simple fact of the matter says the concept has precedent and theres nothing that actually retcons that precedent, so the possiblity does exist, and all things considered, isn't even a possibility, and more like a fact that gets glazed over, like women in the Guard or women in the Tau. They exist but get talked about seldom to none.


Even if that were true, and it isn't as Rems as just shown, those are hardly effective comparisons. I can name at least a half dozen examples of female imperial guardsmen and at least one example of a female fire warrior from recent black library books. Comparing the rarity of female space marines to that of a female imperial guardsmen is like comparing the rarity of a leprechaun to an Irishman.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Even if that were true, and it isn't as Rems as just shown, those are hardly effective comparisons. I can name at least a half dozen examples of female imperial guardsmen and at least one example of a female fire warrior from recent black library books. Comparing the rarity of female space marines to that of a female imperial guardsmen is like comparing the rarity of a leprechaun to an Irishman.


I was more referring to the model ranges, but touche.

Also, I would very much like to see these passages. I will investigate further.


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

So they retconned it out...

That says only one thing: Some overzealous narcissistic chauvinist came along in his mammoth fur leotard, holding a wooden club and said 'UG! Men big strong, women small weak' and proceeded to write them out.

There is little to no reason for having male only Space Marines. It was written by GW, accepted by GW and used by GW. The 'little reason' is only reason because said overzealous narcissistic chauvinist wrote it into the fluff.

Alice


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

SGMAlice said:


> So they retconned it out...
> 
> That says only one thing: Some overzealous narcissistic chauvinist came along in his mammoth fur leotard, holding a wooden club and said 'UG! Men big strong, women small weak' and proceeded to write them out.
> 
> ...


Holy sweet mother of God, the sexist readings are off the charts here.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

SGMAlice said:


> So they retconned it out...
> 
> That says only one thing: Some overzealous narcissistic chauvinist came along in his mammoth fur leotard, holding a wooden club and said 'UG! Men big strong, women small weak' and proceeded to write them out.
> 
> ...


There's also little to no reason to have female Space Marines. Whenever this question comes up i always ask the same thing, why do we need female Space Marines, what purpose would it serve?

In terms of background they're not needed; the Astartes aren't hurting for recruits. 

Is it merely so it's 'pc'? Do we have to have men and women equal in all things? This is the grim and dark 41st millenium where there is nothing but war and the laughter of the thirsting gods, it's unfair. 

Aesthetically they're going to look the same as the male ones, so it can't be modeling purposes. They wouldn't have different rules so it's not for gaming purposes. Why do we need, why should we have female Space Marines?

I can think of several reasons why not. Space Marines are GW's biggest sellers. Space Marines are popular and need to continue to be popular. Dramatically changing their fluff may alienate existing and prospective customers. Look at the shit storm that comes out every time a codex's fluff changes. 

Young boys are GW's new converts, they're who they get into the game and hope will stick with it. Young boys like the idea of super soldiers, recruited at their own age levels. A lot of them would want to be Space Marines, they like war, it's cool. The young boys, GW's target audience are not interested in female Space Marines, they don't want them. They can't look at them and say 'i want to be that'. 

Their role models are Indianna Jones, Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, G.I Joe, Action Man etc. It's commercially viable to market male action heroes to boys. It makes sense from a financial perspective for marines to be male espeically in wargaming, a male dominated hobby.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

This is all true, but there is also no purpose behind deliberately stiff-arming the idea completely. Shutting that down so entirely removes possibilities, not adds them. GW could have said "Its possible but there are no recorded instances" or "It can be done but it has never been tried due to religious zealotry/social stigma/xenophobia". They could have left a window open for the dedicated customers.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> This is all true, but there is also no purpose behind deliberately stiff-arming the idea completely. Shutting that down so entirely removes possibilities, not adds them. GW could have said "Its possible but there are no recorded instances" or "It can be done but it has never been tried due to religious zealotry/social stigma/xenophobia". They could have left a window open for the dedicated customers.


Anyone who cares enough to model up an army of female space marines is probably going to do it regardless of whether or not the established fluff poopoo's the idea. Its a fantasy setting, so anyone can do whatever they want with it. At the end of the day, its their hobby and they can have as much fun with it as they want.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

SGMAlice said:


> There is little to no reason for having male only Space Marines. It was written by GW, accepted by GW and used by GW. The 'little reason' is only reason because said overzealous narcissistic chauvinist wrote it into the fluff.


There is no evidence anywhere at anytime that I have seen to suggest that the GW choice to specifically women from being Space Marines in the fluff was a decision based on sexual prejudices. The prevalence of female characters within GW products makes any accusation of chauvinism by GW simply laughable.

If you look beyond misandry you might find that, as has been raised MANY times before, that the GW choice is based more on target market demographics rather than personal prejudices. 

I can see no reason FOR female space marines but also can see no reason not to have female space marines, as many have said, the gender of the meat that invigorates power armour or TDA is pretty much irrelevant.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

This is such a silly thing to lose your shit over. 

There ain't no female necrons or tyranids either, which is tragic for poor nerds like me who like their gribbly aliens and deathbots to be packing giant tits and wearing revealing miniskirts and skimpy tops. 

But I stoically persevere, making do with what I have been given. So must we all. 


EDIT: Or orks. Big green tittied orks. :crazy:


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I don't really see the lack of female SMs as particularly sexist... especially when there are 2 good reasons for there not to be:

1- SMs were first developed when there were very few women in the military, and none in front line action. So the developers would have had to actively fight against their own preconceptions to have included them... so even if you think there absolutely should be female SMs I think you have to view that as an oversight not a sexist decision.

2- If I were a mad scientist messing about with genetic engineering to try to create the ultimate super-soldier then I would start with a man for 2 very good reasons: first, they are mostly stronger then women and secondly its easier to remove those pesky reproductive organs that will just get in the way.

Of course, if you are going to argue that a woman would make a better super-soldier base template you could just use the example of man-flu.... marines that get knocked on their collective asses by a cold are fairly useless.


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

Serpion5 said:


> This is such a silly thing to lose your shit over.
> 
> There ain't no female necrons or .......


Good point. I can understand the 'nids but what happened to the Necron chicks when they became machines ?


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

hailene said:


> Holy sweet mother of God, the sexist readings are off the charts here.


I was using common stereotypes, humour and a little annoyance to prove a point rather than anything else. Feel free, however, to interpret my words in any fashion you care to.



Rems said:


> There's also little to no reason to have female Space Marines. Whenever this question comes up i always ask the same thing, why do we need female Space Marines, what purpose would it serve?
> 
> In terms of background they're not needed; the Astartes aren't hurting for recruits.
> 
> ...


What says there has to be a purpose to serve, i was doing nothing but making a point: male, female, both, neither, its irrelevant.

Yes, i understand the need for targeted demographics, but how hard it is to add Female ones to it regardless? It wouldn't take much more than say...Female heads that fit Marine bodies and some lines in the Fluff. Little Joey coming in with mummy for his first foray into the Space Marines is hardly going to know much about the Fluff and can steer clear of things he doesn't like/isn't interested in/mummy doesn't agree with. There are ways around everything and its not like there isn't a precedent for the idea already out there, though i will concede that GW is becoming less interested in it Veteran Gamers and what they would like.



Magpie_Oz said:


> There is no evidence anywhere at anytime that I have seen to suggest that the GW choice to specifically women from being Space Marines in the fluff was a decision based on sexual prejudices. The prevalence of female characters within GW products makes any accusation of chauvinism by GW simply laughable.
> 
> If you look beyond misandry you might find that, as has been raised MANY times before, that the GW choice is based more on target market demographics rather than personal prejudices.
> 
> I can see no reason FOR female space marines but also can see no reason not to have female space marines, as many have said, the gender of the meat that invigorates power armour or TDA is pretty much irrelevant.


Of course there isn't! No one in their right mind, in a business context, would openly admit to such things. As i said above i was using stereotyping and humour (though i will admit to a small amount of Venom ) Feel free to laugh as much as you want though.

I covered the Demographics in my reply to Rems.



Serpion5 said:


> This is such a silly thing to lose your shit over.
> 
> There ain't no female necrons or tyranids either, which is tragic for poor nerds like me who like their gribbly aliens and deathbots to be packing giant tits and wearing revealing miniskirts and skimpy tops.
> 
> ...


I'm assuming that was aimed at me? 

I'm not losing anything over this. Maybe i should have added a few emoticons to the post. Ah well.



Tim/Steve said:


> I don't really see the lack of female SMs as particularly sexist... especially when there are 2 good reasons for there not to be:
> 
> 1- SMs were first developed when there were very few women in the military, and none in front line action. So the developers would have had to actively fight against their own preconceptions to have included them... so even if you think there absolutely should be female SMs I think you have to view that as an oversight not a sexist decision.
> 
> ...


Preconceptions is the correct word. Relative physical or otherwise strength is irrelevant when considering what happens to a person when being turned into a Space Marine, they are genetically altered to be 8ft tall super human killing machines. Plus, if that was such an issue why are many many other things, in various Media formats, including both male and female characters where they are on equal footing to each other, such as Mass Effect, Metroid (Samus Aran is in fact better), Dead or Alive series, the Alien films e.t.c.




That was alot to reply to so if i've missed anything you'll have to forgive me, its been a long day.

Alice


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Good point. I can understand the 'nids but what happened to the Necron chicks when they became machines ?


They became machines. Necrons have a decided lack of personality and sexual characteristics. Personally I would argue that there aren't any male Necrons either, any more than there are male or female computers.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

SGMAlice said:


> Preconceptions is the correct word. Relative physical or otherwise strength is irrelevant when considering what happens to a person when being turned into a Space Marine, they are genetically altered to be 8ft tall super human killing machines. Plus, if that was such an issue why are many many other things, in various Media formats, including both male and female characters where they are on equal footing to each other, such as Mass Effect, Metroid (Samus Aran is in fact better), Dead or Alive series, the Alien films e.t.c.


Because in those cases you have 'men' and 'women'... marines have been engineered away from their humanity.

If I were the emperor and my plan was to make a new super-soldier with gene manipulation I would go out and find a group of people who were over 6'5" and built like brick shit houses (which I think we can almost universally say would be men)... castrate them (ouch), remove any other internal reproductive organs and then start adding back in artificial organs, chemicals and gene-therapy to push their already massive frames to enormous scales.

Even if there was a female space marine chances are you wouldn't know it: her features would be gigantised/masculinated by the drug/gene therapies, she wouldn't have a chest (breasts would be a 'remnant' feature at best) and she would have a seriously deep voice just like other marines (due to the size of their bodies/chests).


Now if you were to ask about why there are very few women shown in imperial roles or holding any rank in the guard that would be something I would have to agree with... 
Women are known to join PDF forces, are commonly seen as remembrancers, navigators, assassins or nobles... but I've yet to run into any women as fleet captains, commissars, goveners or even guard officers (except for one lieutenant in Space Marine) and there really isn't any reason why not.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Magpie_Oz said:


> Good point. I can understand the 'nids but what happened to the Necron chicks when they became machines ?


I would think any in a position of power would have desired to retain their vanity much like any male Necrontyr did. Those not in a position of power however would have gotten a stock body. I posit women were likely underrepresented in Necrontyr nobility and thats why you don't see many (Read: Any) female overlords. I am betting female Crypteks and Overlords exist, however.

As for the other arguments.

There ARE female Tyranids. Tyranids, however, are as far from human as you can get. It would be impossible to associate human features with them. Thus female Tyranids are characterized more as "queen bee"-esque figures.

Orks have been asexual from conception. There are no female Orks because there are no male Orks either. Unlike humans, they aren't a race with genders that simply refuses/is unable to let their females become warriors (Though I can scarcely think of anything more terrifying than a female Ork...)

SM are literally the only instance where this stigma has cropped up. No other race has to put up with the "No Girls Allowed" sign on the clubhouse.



Tim/Steve said:


> Because in those cases you have 'men' and 'women'... marines have been engineered away from their humanity.
> 
> If I were the emperor and my plan was to make a new super-soldier with gene manipulation I would go out and find a group of people who were over 6'5" and built like brick shit houses (which I think we can almost universally say would be men)... castrate them (ouch), remove any other internal reproductive organs and then start adding back in artificial organs, chemicals and gene-therapy to push their already massive frames to enormous scales.
> 
> ...


This was a very similar argument in the early days of the Halo series as to why there could be no female Spartans. And if you think about it, a Spartan and a Space Marine are very similar in terms of genetic engineering (With SM obviously being bulkier and with more artificial organs).

Science shows women and men build muscle very differently. Female bodybuilders who don't roid up build "hard" muscle instead of "mass" muscle. Same strength, but smaller size. Most importantly, they do not lose any feminine features. Their waist stays smaller than their hips, their shoulders do not broaden as much, so on. While it seems silly to associate science and Halo, Bungie did their research on the issue and thats how they justify female Spartans not being big muscly dudes. The same argument could be made here. A woman would become more muscular, and would still gain mass, but it would be proportional mass. The argument of "They would not look like women any more ergo there is no point except to be PC" would be invalid in this case.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Tim/Steve said:


> but I've yet to run into any women as fleet captains,


Athene DuCade, admiral of the Red Tear (flagship of Sanguinius of the Blood Angels), Cynia Preest (a rogue trader)



Tim/Steve said:


> commissars,


Commissar-general Viktoria Belshin



Tim/Steve said:


> goveners


Mykola Shonai (governess of Pavonis before turning power over to her nephew)



Tim/Steve said:


> or even guard officers (except for one lieutenant in Space Marine)


Commander Bree Jagdea of the Phantine Air Corp, colonel Regina Kasteen of the Valhallan ice warriors, general Jenit Sulla, and general Esbet Athelstane.

Just to name some of the women who have held those positions; though I am sure there are more that can be added (like the countless female inquisitors and such.)


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Iron Angel said:


> Science shows women and men build muscle very differently. Female bodybuilders who don't roid up build "hard" muscle instead of "mass" muscle. Same strength, but smaller size. Most importantly, they do not lose any feminine features. Their waist stays smaller than their hips, their shoulders do not broaden as much, so on. While it seems silly to associate science and Halo, Bungie did their research on the issue and thats how they justify female Spartans not being big muscly dudes. The same argument could be made here. A woman would become more muscular, and would still gain mass, but it would be proportional mass. The argument of "They would not look like women any more ergo there is no point except to be PC" would be invalid in this case.


I'll admit right off the bat that this is not something I'm familiar with, so thanks for teaching me something new. However I'm guessing there's an upper limit to how much "hard" muscle you can have to "mass" muscle and that at some point the woman has to start bulking out. I'm also fairly confident that Space Marines don't just have more muscle than the average human but that it's also far denser than the human frame would be able to cope with (hence the need for denser, stronger bone). It seems to me that Space Marines pack on an amount and density of muscle that is pretty unrelated to how well that person would actually be able to build muscle. Some people are naturally inclined to build more "mass" and others more "hard", even in men, and some people are naturally inclined to be fat or skinny. I've never heard of marines screening for these natural inclinations, or giving a rats ass about them, so it seems logical that Chapters with a wide recruiting base would draft individuals with a wide range of natural inclinations towards muscle building. And yet despite that the marines they produce are still startlingly similar in build (and beyond that to features as well). This suggests to me that the Astartes process over-rides the human bodies natural abilities and pre-dispositions towards making muscle. Which means that unless the process is fundamentally altered, I don't think it would have a noticeably different effect on women.

Spartans are drastically less physically altered than Space Marines, and the science of doing so is better understood, which means that they two aren't really comparable.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I wasn't aiming at anyone specifically Alice. It may have seemed that way, because threads like this have gone that way in the past.

I just pointed my ass at the thread and let rip.


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

Fair enough Serpion  Just trying to cover all the bases.

I still see no reason why there Couldn't be Female Space Marines. As far as i am aware from the various 40k media i have partaken in, Gender is irrelevant unless it has been specifically written in under loose circumstances.

I don't want to draw this out any longer than necessary or further than it should be so i'll settle for 'Debatable but not proven either way'. As many of us have said; its personal choice and the fact that GW leaves it open ended for a reason. (A good idea in many cases)

Alice


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

Women Spacemarines are quite feasible why the nerd rage, I would imagine the reason for having mostly male spacemarines is the same as all military today, and that is, in general men are bigger and stronger than women and adapt to the life easier as well as deriving some pleasure from the atavistic side off life. 

NOTE: I'm talking in GENERAL terms folks


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Well from a homebrew perspective you can do whatever the fuck you want. 

From a canon lore perspective, it ain't happening. 

That's pretty much all it comes down to.


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Oldman78 said:


> Women Spacemarines are quite feasible why the nerd rage, I would imagine the reason for having mostly male spacemarines is the same as all military today, and that is, in general men are bigger and stronger than women and adapt to the life easier as well as deriving some pleasure from the atavistic side off life.
> 
> NOTE: I'm talking in GENERAL terms folks


Because many men have issues and feel unconfortable with women being included in fantasy settings where there is really no bounds other than the imaginations of the authors. Why GW has decided to essentially write off women and people of african, asian and native american descent for their fantasy setting can only be explained that rather than make a balanced, equal imaginary universe, they have decided to cater to the popular mass buying their product; a white, adolescent anglo-saxon male who is uncomfortable having girls and blacks with his plastic space men.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Arcane said:


> Because many men have issues and feel unconfortable with women being included in fantasy settings where there is really no bounds other than the imaginations of the authors. Why GW has decided to essentially write off women and people of african, asian and native american descent for their fantasy setting can only be explained that rather than make a balanced, equal imaginary universe, they have decided to cater to the popular mass buying their product; a white, adolescent anglo-saxon male who is uncomfortable having girls and blacks with his plastic space men.


Native Americans probably won't exist 38k years from now, and how would we know if they had or hadn't ruled the other two out? What do you want? "Hello, I am Xio, the Asian space marine!" Well that won't happen. Why? Because Asia and Africa are continents on a single planet which probably aren't even called Asia or Africa 38000 years in the future. If you see someone described as having dark skin, there are your Africans. Problem solved. As far as Asians go, I'm sure they're somewhere in there.

EDIT: Went a bit overboard. My bad.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

Arcane said:


> Because many men have issues and feel unconfortable with women being included in fantasy settings where there is really no bounds other than the imaginations of the authors. Why GW has decided to essentially write off women and people of african, asian and native american descent for their fantasy setting can only be explained that rather than make a balanced, equal imaginary universe, they have decided to cater to the popular mass buying their product; a white, adolescent anglo-saxon male who is uncomfortable having girls and blacks with his plastic space men.


Would have to disagree with you there, I've read plenty of 40k stories with characters spacemarine and otherwise with "ebony" skin, clearly not white anglo-saxon, you have the White Scars- who socially and physically described like 1200a.d mongolians, Dorn comes from Inuit cue Imperial Fist recruits who are descended from eskimoes, Tallarns are Arabian 

The military is male dominated and when writing stories which are almost exclusively about eternal war, the authors are gonna write about the future based on what references they already have, all of human history to date is male dominated military. 

As for spacemarines there would be practically zero difference between a male and female apart from the genitals, look at the fluff, pre-adolescents pumped full of growth hormones and special organs and brain washed into sociopathic killing machines, a female s.m wouldn't even have breasts cos of all the corded muscle, hopefully A.D.B will write up some female s.ms and stop all the whoo ha, it has been already posted about female space marines from the Rogue trader ere in this thread.

And yes all little male teenage geeks like to fantasize about being a big strong super hero, in-fact that is just the male mind, but the reason is to ultimately impress and win the girl, not to exclude them, it stems to the ye olde cave man alpha male desire


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## Magpie_Oz (Jan 16, 2012)

gen.ahab said:


> As far as Asians go, I'm sure they're somewhere in there.


You do realise that currently Asians constitute 60% of the global population? , by the 41st Century it's the Caucs who'll be very much in the minority.

What amazes me tho' is ALL of the characters in ALL of the books sound like Australians, no other nationalities get a look in. I'm sure someone can blame Matt Ward for that.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Sarcasm. It's a wonderful thing, unless you are on the Internet, in which case no one picks up on it. 

Yes, I am saying that was sarcasm, Magpie. 

Though, making assumptions about the racial makeup of the human race in a fictional universe based 38 thousand or so years in the future using current figures and growth trends might not be the best idea, especially with the whole space magic thing going on.


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## doofyoofy (Mar 8, 2011)

Would just like to say that Female Space Marines would cheapen the setting. The male only thing adds character to the Space Marines. For Badass females in power armor look at SOB. For female Space MArines analogues use ur imaginations.

Ex. We know that Death cultists and various assasins recieve augmentations that boost reflexes and strength and durability. Cue females with various bionics and augmentations boosting durability, strength, and reflexes with mind impulse units to link power armor and body. This would be horribly expensive from a fluff view in terms of money, time spent and political favors, but it fits to make female Space Marine analogues that doesnt cheapen SM FLuff.


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## xNoPityx (Dec 23, 2010)

Why not just write better female characters for the the already existing armies that allow females? Why try to write in women into an already established mono-gender army? I'm not against adding in female marines if there is a good idea behind it but why do it just to do it? It is completely unnecessary.


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