# For all the Chaos Lords out there!!!



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Being Chaos as such we are, we have a tendency of being hated. So I made this thread for all those chaos Lords and supporters. So that we may discuss much matters or greivances on how we feel about the emperor, and why we chose to be where we are. Of course if you have any questions about anything please ask them. Hopefully, they can be answered!

chaos RULES!!!:threaten:


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## jesse (Sep 29, 2008)

chaos does rule. very nicely actually.
everyone loves a good villian so why not your "battle brother"
seems kinda played out but i still love it


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Hi everyone, I'm Rev, and I'm a Chaos Lord...

I've been Emporer free for a few years now and I'm feeling pretty good about myself. Sure it's been rough. Nothing like your own family disowning you because you didn't follow their life choices, but sooner or later you have to stand up for what you believe in. 

I've had a few set backs. I almost fell back into the same trap with the Chaos Gods... I know, I know; but I caught myself before giving it all away to another divine being who was just going to use me for their own gain. 

I'm lucky to have the support of those other Lords around me going through the same thing. I've seen some of them strike out on their own and end up in worse situations. I know Kharne is still wrestling with some Daemons and anger issues, so I'm glad to say I'm still me inside. 

Anyway, I know some other Lords are anxious to share, so I'll give the floor to one of them. Thanks again brothers!


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I am also curious to how people feel about the Horus Heresy Novels. They are pretty good. 
The first topic don't seem to understand is that between the thousand sons and the emperor. Magnus the Red seems to have tried to protect the emperor and warn him. He also tries desperatley to save horus in his dream from turning into chaos. Was the emperor and idiot or what when unleashed the wolves on him? You also have to understand that the emperor is supposidley the great being that he is... well... besides horus and my beloved Peturabo. But in all seriousness his ability to read the future and control the warp is suppose to be vastly superior than any of the other primarchs. What happened?!!!


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

hahaha thats awesome rev. Do you have a particular legion that you prefer or share an interest in? If so why?


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## jesse (Sep 29, 2008)

well form what i heard the emporer had forbade(even though he was one)the use of physic powers. at least thats what i heard


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

hahaha. no your right. im not an idiot. But you can't just say that just because one of your most trusted general and sons betrayed you when infact he was trying to save him. Is that good enough? The inquisition in fact uses warp energies uncontrollably for there benefit and to defeat chaos all the time. He doesn't do anything about that, if in fact it is such a big deal. Could such a divine being really do that to one of his sons without knowing about what the purpose of that action was?


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

CK, I think you have a couple of gaps in your understanding of the chain of events....

First, the false emperor was indeed the most powerful human psyker to have ever existed. But he was still human and like the primarchs, prone to the same character flaws as you and I (for example, making rash judgements, holding prejudices, playing favourates, etc)

Second, the false emperor explicitly banned the use of sorcery at the council of Nikea. This was to protect the material realm from the influence of chaos. Now, when Magnus divined Horus' traitorous intent and attempted to use sorcery to inform the false emperor he broke the emperor's law twice. I'll admit that my own grasp of the chain of events is not full either - I believe the emperor received Magnus' message and was (1) angry his edict was broken, (2) unwilling to believe his favoured son would turn from him.

Third, The inquisition did not exist while the false emperor was alive. It was founded after he was reduced to a broken husk. It is quite clear that _all_ of the emperor's original plans have basically been perverted & abandoned by the lords of terra in the ten millenia since his destruction.

Fourth, the inquisition does not use warp energies "uncontrollably" - sanctioned psykers are heavily indoctrinated, placed under extreme scrutiny and control, and most are required to have a soul binding ritual (which I'll admit, I know absolutely nothing about - other than it's supposed to be less than pleasant...)


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

Blood for the blood god!


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> hahaha thats awesome rev. Do you have a particular legion that you prefer or share an interest in? If so why?


Err... I have a lot of thoughts on them and not enough time right now... some good, some bad. Some I like more than others, while some irritate me at times. Can't get into it right now...


m3rr3k said:


> I'll admit that my own grasp of the chain of events is not full either - I believe the emperor received Magnus' message and was (1) angry his edict was broken, (2) unwilling to believe his favoured son would turn from him.


Agreed on point 1, disagree on point 2. We know he was pissed because it screwed his experiment up at the time and he sent Russ to bring Magnus back, BUT, we don't know if he ever listened to the message or not. In addition, there is some speculation regarding what the Emporer was planning to do with Magnus if he got the gate working at the time (one theory includes Magnus being the battery for the machine).

Plus the guy was an ass. If you actually read some of the things he did I don't see how anyone can call him anything else... lying, manipulating, careless, demanding, unwavering, lazy, weak, arrogant, self righteous and a mass murderer to boot. And this of all people, is the tragic hero of 40K... wow...


World Eater XII said:


> Blood for the blood god!


Ah... you can always count on these guys! A little less conversation a little more action babe!


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Interesting. Furthornote, i think that its important to understand that every question i ask is actually an open question. So it seems as though that to actually abide and understand the emperor's reasoning that one must then acknowledge that that itself is proof that the emperor is a false god. (to those emperor lovers out there). And yes i actually believe that i agree with everything you say. You have to understand that open ended questions in which we discuss and give our opinions. In fact the reason why i developed this thread. Its to infact point out every single flaw of the emperium.

Next i want to talk about the dark angels. So here is what is going to blow some people's minds... why did the Great Lion not come to the aid of the emperor? After all one must know that in fact the little rebellion with cypher had ended. If one were to read the books, one would deeply be surprised at how close the Dark Angels as a chapter almost fell into chaos.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

Hi, 

I am Vilhelm and I have been touched by chaos for 10,000 years. I must say that it was the best decision I have ever made in my life. Long ago the Emperor used and abused me and my legion. We were thrown at every impregnable civilization and we brought it down to its knees....and for what? Dorn and his little maggots getting all the credit? We threw off our shackles that he had bound us in and tore down the walls of his palace!....ehem and then we tought Dorn and his little shits a lesson in warfare. Anywho all i am saying is you have all made the right choice, welcome to chaos.

Sincerely,

Black Apostle Vilhelm


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

chaos is gud fun..good chainaxe clean fun! 

The lackeys of the corpse god do miss out on having bolt pistols and ccw!

A skull for the skull throne!


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I love you guys. yo I have a question about the World Eater's primarch's personal anger towards the emperor. I think i read somewhere that infact when he was in his own world as a gladiator he put up a rebellion and right before the end of it the emperor transported him to his ship and all his comrades died. again i have a very vague concept. Is that what happened or/ and is there more to the story? I really dont believe that even though the world eaters are blood thirsty cold hearted murderers that thats all that really made them join chaos. because thats not very interesting.


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## m3rr3k (Oct 14, 2008)

that's exactly what happened (until it gets retconned...)


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

wait what do you mean until? And really thats it?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

yo Black Apostle Vilhelm,

I'm glad you bring up Dorn the Thorn. That guy is such an emperor's bitch! He got what he deserved. We should give the Imperial Fists a couple more Iron Cages its doesn't seem as thought they've learned their lesson. We kicked their butts again in the Book "iron storm," which brings the me the question whether we actually have the biggest legion of astartes, even bigger than the ultra marines. because you have to remember the gene seed inside that palace was from all the chapters!
im assuming you know a lot about the Iron Warriors, but can you remind me how Dorn specifically dies. From my recollection he gets killed my Peturabo right? After the fight the only thing left of the corpse was his fists one which is used on top of lysanders hammer.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

*development of a chaos them song.*

how do you guys like this song?

No one knows what its like... to be chaos... to be an asshole... behind Darkness...
and my conscience ... is very empty... its seems to want to be a... a dark lord

haha i forgot who does that song. but im worken on it!


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> wait what do you mean until? And really thats it?


Just about. Angron refused to abandon his home in order to insure the survival of his people. The Emporer said 'F that' and teleported him out, causing his comrades to lose their lives. Personally, I would have killed the Emporer right there if I were in his shoes. I think the only reason he didn't was beause of Horus. Another justifiable "betrayal" against the "divine Emporer". 

People always claim the Primarchs fell to Chaos because of their human flaws. But each one had a legitimate reason to follow their own paths. The Emporer was a fool, he deserves to die.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Thank you very much Revelations. Ouch that does suck, and i guess that does make sense. I hope to those interested chaos fans, that you learn something. Thats why i made the thread. I thought i knew a lot, and im actually learning a lot. Yah im actually suprised Angron didn't be like yo bitch send me the heck back down before i tear another hole in yo face.


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Revelations said:


> People always claim the Primarchs fell to Chaos because of their human flaws. But each one had a legitimate reason to follow their own paths. The Emporer was a fool, he deserves to die.


Oh, no no no... Death was too good for the Corpse God. Besides, some ancient legions (old rogue trader fluff) stated the Emperor was the master of Resurrection. His current fate is far more fitting. For ten millennia, has been trapped in his own body. He cannot move or act. He can only watch and decay, in pain and anguish as he is forced to watch the crimes of humanity committed in his name.

Such was the point of the Horus Heresy. Such is the will of Chaos. _Ave Diis Chaos!_


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

sadly the great Perturabo did not kill Dorn. After we left the iron cage guilliman had to pull his sorry arse out. the fists couldnt fight actively for almost 100 years, somewhere along those lines. him sitting in his own self pity and remorse was more than enough for us. BUT when he was assualting the eye of terra once his legion was in a fighting state again he boarded a chaos vessel and disappeared. the only thing found was his fist. on every occasion we meet the Iron Warriors grind the Imperial Fists beneath our steel shod boots.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

hmmm... but i am pretty sure Regal Dorn is dead. I'l go check again. It might not have been Peturabo but i was pretty sure he died/ disapeared after a battle with the Iron Warriors. Thats why Captain Lysander's hammer is such an artifact. I believe that fist was all that was found last of him. Darn! Man the problem with all these facts is that they are all over the place. But thats what makes looking for them so much better! Its like a quest!


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

woops u said that sorry man. i only read the first part.k:


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

From my understanding, the Imperial Fists only have the primarch's hand displayed in glass. They worship it as a sacred artifact. Some random daemon prince most likely has Dorn's head displayed in a similar manner, though as a trophy.


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## NurglingStomper (Jan 31, 2009)

For many a long millennium I have been a Dark Apostle of the Word Bearers. Death _IS_ too good for the rotting corpse on the toilet. The false emperor now wants to be worshiped, but when my legion was the first to do it we were scolded, humiliated, and punished. Now we have found those who would gladly take our offerings. Let the galaxy BURN and let the diluted corpse worshipers DIE!:threaten:


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## Death Shroud (Mar 1, 2008)

I've recently converted from Christianity to Slaanesh, you get more wine when you go to church and I don't mind so much when the priests try to touch me up.:biggrin:


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

CamTheApostle said:


> From my understanding, the Imperial Fists only have the primarch's hand displayed in glass. They worship it as a sacred artifact. Some random daemon prince most likely has Dorn's head displayed in a similar manner, though as a trophy.


:laugh:

hahahaha yes!


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Death Shroud said:


> I've recently converted from Christianity to Slaanesh, you get more wine when you go to church and I don't mind so much when the priests try to touch me up.:biggrin:


:grin:

thats true and more chicks, or guys. whatever your into


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Out of all the chapters... which chapter do you chaos lords and supporters think is the least "chaos like" chapter and why?


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> Out of all the chapters... which chapter do you chaos lords and supporters think is the least "chaos like" chapter and why?


Chapters? We don't need no stinking chapter! We are the warriors of the Gods! The Legions are still strong, loyal to our primarchs and driven by our hate. Do not dare tarnish the legions by suggesting we are some simpering imperial dogs with 'chapters'...

Now, perhaps you mean to ask which of the loyalist dogs is most likely to fall. If that were the case, then I would throw my vote to the sons of El'Jonson. The Lion's spawn hold no alliance other then convenience. They have no restraint save for fear of exposure. Their secrets are all consuming, drawing them to the bosom of the Gods.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I agree along with the blood angels. "Its the curse" BEWARE OF THE CURSE! BEWARE!":threaten:

and lol I mean some of the Chaos legions act more chaosy than others. Its not my fault they just dont like chaos.


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> I agree along with the blood angels. "Its the curse" BEWARE OF THE CURSE! BEWARE!":threaten:
> 
> and lol I mean some of the Chaos legions act more chaosy than others. Its not my fault they just dont like chaos.


Ah.

*Liking *Chaos has nothing to do with *serving *Chaos, though it does help. 

For the most devoted, few can match the zealous devotion of my fellow Word Bearers. We are the chose disciples of the Gods and for that, they bless us. 

Following us, I would say that the four disciple legions are the most devoted. To give themselves to a single god such as they have is admirable... to a point.

The Night Lords, I believe, are far closer to chaos then they understand. They are the children of terror, and the cries they spawn echo across the Warp as a sweet symphony.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I want to say Alpha legion is basically not chaos. I mean look at them. They have little to no daemonship in their ranks. I believe... well alpharius is dead of his twin is still alive and i dont think hes a daemon prince. And they prefer to rom around in the empyream than to go around the beautiful sights of the eye of terror. 
Hold on i just had a revelation. Wasn't it the Alpha Legion who Guilleman was jelous of? I guess that does put them up there in Chaos but it just seems very open. Its like can you guys "cha-on it" a little?


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> I want to say Alpha legion is basically not chaos. I mean look at them. They have little to no daemonship in their ranks. I believe... well alpharius is dead of his twin is still alive and i dont think hes a daemon prince. And they prefer to rom around in the empyream than to go around the beautiful sights of the eye of terror.
> Hold on i just had a revelation. Wasn't it the Alpha Legion who Guilleman was jelous of? I guess that does put them up there in Chaos but it just seems very open. Its like can you guys "cha-on it" a little?


What do you mean we died? There's a million and a half alpha marines who share the name of our sneaky primarch.

Also, does anyone else feel as though chaos lords have been misrepresented in the dawn of war media? It seems like they're all flamingly retarded, stupidly devoted to khorne, or just effing wacky(METAL BOXES)

And why would we want daemonship in our ranks? Expensive, useless possessed? Pass. Defilers? Pass. Lesser Daemons? Pass. Greater Daemons? Pass. Failed brothers that have become spawn? Pass.

Daemonprinces and obliterators are perfectly fine since we can either A)deploy them where they need to go(oblits) or B )they rend their way in.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

no my Alpha legion friend. Chaos is as you know a section of different matter, ways, worship. And in so different lords work their different ways to please the gods. Wether they do it because they truly want to please the gods or wether its to get more out of it. Thats why the power of chaos is so strong. It attracts different lords mentalities. Wether its greed, hate, jelousy, the list goes on.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

My bad Lord Waffles. I did not know you where an Alpha Legion Lord. I'm sure your a good Chaos Lord and such. I just wish we could see more of your service around the eye of terror or at least know of any big accomplishments you have or will be doing. Every chapter has its secrets. Through the books and such you tend to learn about their secrets. I'm sure their write a more interesting book on the alpha legion. "legion" was mind bottling though.


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> What do you mean we died? There's a million and a half alpha marines who share the name of our sneaky primarch.


By the Gods, we get it already. Your legion are masters of the 30 Xanatos Pileup. We get it. Now quit patting yourselves on the back and start openly worshiping Tzeentch already.



LordWaffles said:


> Also, does anyone else feel as though chaos lords have been misrepresented in the dawn of war media? It seems like they're all flamingly retarded, stupidly devoted to khorne, or just effing wacky(METAL BOXES)


Yes... yes they are. It would seem that everyone seems to think that joining Chaos automatically makes one instantly stupid. In fact, it is not merely Dawn of War. The Blood Angels books have a Dark Apostle who doesn't seem to be able to think himself out of a wet paper sack. After Horus' fall, he goes from this complex and likable character to a two-dimensional villain who is always moody.

Come now, we can be more creative then this, can't we? Or is it simply too hard to create a decent and complex villain who isn't likable? Simply have him kick a dog or something.


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## chrisman 007 (Jan 3, 2008)

*burns thread with flamer*


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

CamTheApostle said:


> Yes... yes they are. It would seem that everyone seems to think that joining Chaos automatically makes one instantly stupid. In fact, it is not merely Dawn of War. The Blood Angels books have a Dark Apostle who doesn't seem to be able to think himself out of a wet paper sack. After Horus' fall, he goes from this complex and likable character to a two-dimensional villain who is always moody.


What bugged me about the DoW series, beyond the very 2 dimensional villains, was when they spoke. One was a twisted William Shatner who smoked too much, and the other was a self obsessed flaming fruit cake that was in love with his own voice. 

Besides, merely choosing to believe in a power that grants your depravities rewards doesn't make you any more 'stupid' than blindly believing another power will curse you for the same. I still find it funny the later will claim more honesty than the former. 


CamTheApostle said:


> Come now, we can be more creative then this, can't we? Or is it simply too hard to create a decent and complex villain who isn't likable? Simply have him kick a dog or something.


I thought it very fitting that they had a small mention toward 40k... it certainly got a laugh out of me. I think many of the villains of the 40k universe fit this, it's just that many of us have started liking the villains a lot more than the 'heroes' simply because either they're more honest about it or they're better at their jobs. Kharne would certainly kill an innocent critter that happened to be in arms reach, but we still love that crazy bloodthristy b*st*rd don't we? Although sure, he's not exactly all that complex. 

I find when you add in the complexities into the characterization of villains, they become much more likable than not, simply because the audience can start empathizing with them, or at least begin to understand their perspective. I say Joker from 'The Dark Knight' really blurs those lines, but everyone loved him to.

When you consider that all, how can someone not like a good villain?


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

which is why the people who are drawn to chaos choose it. they want to see the bad side, the road that not many people travel. power, freedom the list goes on. As for the question at hand the alpha legion and iron warriors are the least "chaotic". the alpha legion for the sole purpose of that they are not in the eye, dont seem to worship chaos except in the DoW games, only start cults to topple worlds and because of what we recently found out in Legion. the iron warriors openly admit not rigidly adherring to chaos, they only have faith in their own abilities, battlebrothers, and weapons. they are terribly paranoid which only adds to this. as for the other chaos legions, they do worship it in some way shape or form.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

idk. I think your right about chaos not worshipping chaos but to an extent the Iron Warriors do use chaos a lot to mutate machine with flesh. a lot! And they live pretty darn close to the eye of terror. They also have been known to use socery to control the warp.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

oh man! I wish i could play dawn of war. but i have a mac... shit. And is it really true what they say about the new dawn of war? Only four races?!! And We're not even a choice! Blasphemy! Seriously wtf!?? Okay I'm chill....:grin:
:cray:
But seriously "You know the thing about chaos? Its fair." This is not fair!


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Revelations said:


> I thought it very fitting that they had a small mention toward 40k... it certainly got a laugh out of me. I think many of the villains of the 40k universe fit this, it's just that many of us have started liking the villains a lot more than the 'heroes' simply because either they're more honest about it or they're better at their jobs. Kharne would certainly kill an innocent critter that happened to be in arms reach, but we still love that crazy bloodthristy b*st*rd don't we? Although sure, he's not exactly all that complex.


Except for kittens. Kharn loves kittens. :grin:

Personally, my own Word Bearer Dark Apostle (fluff-wise) prefers a soft tone of gentle encouragement to coerce others to turn to chaos. He pushes all the right buttons, playing on their desires and fears. He twists their desires and in a honey tone, lures to the worship of the True Gods. It isn't about screaming and breaking their will through power and fear, rather erroding their will and using their own force against them.

That is the true power of Chaos. Not the legions of daemons or the horrible mutations. It is the gentle, subtle push of corruption that works its way into the cracks and grows until the walls of will shatter and the soul is ripe for the picking.



Revelations said:


> I find when you add in the complexities into the characterization of villains, they become much more likable than not, simply because the audience can start empathizing with them, or at least begin to understand their perspective. I say Joker from 'The Dark Knight' really blurs those lines, but everyone loved him to.


Ledger's Joker definetly was a servant of Chaos.



Revelations said:


> When you consider that all, how can someone not like a good villain?


So are you saying that the reason Chaos marine villians are so one-dimensional is that makes them less likeable? 

Remember kid: Evil is cool, feels good and taste great!

Come to Chaos - we have cookies!


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

"You know the thing about chaos? Its fair"


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I love kittens too. :threaten:
oh man i might be Kharn........ !!!!!!!! Do YOU HEAR THE VOICES TOO?!!!!!


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

correction the iron warriors do not "use" chaos to corrupt the flesh and bring the machine and flesh closer together. take obliterators for an example, they do not say "hey let's use chaos to make us all huge and mold us to our armor so we can make any shooty weapon with our arms." it happens from them being in the vicinity of the eye for such a long period of time. AND on top of that it is a virus which is why only some chaos marines get it and not others. as for the machines and siege engines, when was the last time you heard of a chaos land raider and/or predator in a book that was NOT possessed by some daemons? it is going to happen, naturally. just becuase it does does not by any means mean that they worship or use it (chaos) as often as other legions. 

that was the point i was trying to get across, every legion uses chaos in some way. if they didnt they wouldnt be the chaos legions (who'd of thunk?). the question was who used it and who was closer or something along those lines. the alpha legion is a definate and so are the iron warriors. if you read any kind of fluff on them it specifically states they tend to themselves, are paranoid as fuck, and dont really follow the chaos gods. the only reason they have numerous obliterators than any other legion is becuase it goes with their personality/battle doctrine. they are so attached to their weapons already they would be the likely candidates for the virus. same with the possession of vehicles, it happens over time and they allow it becuase if they were to get rid of the machine then they would be one shell short and of course we cant have that can we?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

okay, I thought 
i heard something in the book Storm of Chaos where they use that virus to convert that one dude into breaking into the geneseed laboratory. So I assume they like that shit.


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

exactly it is a virus, so to speak, not a way to worship the gods. although it is a daemonic virus it is a virus none the less.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I was just thinking about how to reconstruct my Iron Warriors army. I have basically cutomized it to make it look like it make sense. Like the lesser daemons are robots, and the daemon prince has got some machine parts. oh man...:cray: a lot of work. Anyway. I kind of dont know what to do about bezerker models. You know i want my army to look uniform. Do you think the iron warrior color scheme could go alright with it, or should i just create my own models? suggestions?:ireful2:


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

CamTheApostle said:


> Except for kittens. Kharn loves kittens. :grin:


WAR KITTENS??!! 


CamTheApostle said:


> So are you saying that the reason Chaos marine villians are so one-dimensional is that makes them less likeable?


Well, if I understood your assertion correctly, you seemed to indicate that it was difficult to make a villain likable without making them complex, at least without resorting to 'kick the dog' tactics that many employ. But yes, the very one dimensional characteristic so many of them display makes them less likable then their more complex counterparts. 

The only reason Kharne works, is because his 1-dimension works within his world and the 40K world. Bloodthrisy, violent, no-talk-more-action, kill everything attitude and a generally badassery make him enjoyable. Not to mention his reckless abandon for friend or foe in axes reach. But then you look at another 1-dimensional character; Huron... what exactly makes anyone want to play him? The only thing I find interesting about this character is the little familiar he's toting around, but there's no information whatsoever on that little pecker, so where's the motivation to give a damn? 

Now one could easily support this with the latest changes to the Chaos Codex and the Marine Codex. We all know Marines are the poster boys of GW, so why not remove all the flavorlisiousness of the Chaos boys while throwing the Marines WAAAAAAAAAAY too many bones? You remove the character developments, remove their character statuses, and suddenly your left with an army that not to many people are interested in.

I mean, the 2nd greatest sorcerer in all the universe, who even the god of magic has kept an eye on, suddenly suffers from splitting migraines caused by warp entities? While amazingly, the big blueberry can somehow manage to repel an invasion of the most terrifying super soldiers ever to torment your nightmares with a handful of old men with pitch forks? 

So without conntinuing on that tiff, suddenly the villains become vanilla (huh... interesting similarities to those two words...) and lose a great deal of likability as their complexities are stripped away from them. And on the other side of the spectrum, even the heroes remain one dimensional in their; "oh look, i can beet everytin wit my handz tied behin my back!" characterizations. 

Give me a villain with a mind and a purpose. Give me a hero with a flaw and a tragedy. It's what made me enjoy the fluff portion of 40k, because each one was unique in their own way. But lately they've just been plain f**king it up... OK, need to stop the rant...


CamTheApostle said:


> Come to Chaos - we have cookies!


But don't ask what kind; we hate that.


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Revelations said:


> WAR KITTENS??!!


Kittens, covered in spikes! That makes, me, angry!



Revelations said:


> Well, if I understood your assertion correctly, you seemed to indicate that it was difficult to make a villain likable without making them complex, at least without resorting to 'kick the dog' tactics that many employ. But yes, the very one dimensional characteristic so many of them display makes them less likable then their more complex counterparts.


Actually, I meant it was hard to make a villain complex and deep realistic without giving them some likable traits. Even if its a matter of 'damn this guy is good at being bad', that is still something. I am tired of villains that are nothing more then villains. They have no reason for existing other then being defeated by the hero and there is no realistic way they could have achieved their current status.

"He is a great general and mighty leader, who defeated all our armies and conquered a thousand world! So how does he handle bad news? He executes the messenger and his trusted lieutenants who have fought with him throughout the entire campaign. What are his brilliant tactics? Keep throwing increasingly stronger human waves in suicide charges at the target, starting with the weakest. But he is a great general and mighty leader."

That is what I loved about Storm of Iron. I was cheering on both sides, hoping the Imperial Guard would pull through and defeat the Iron Warriors, while at the same time cheering for the Iron Warriors to crush those dogs of the false emperor. The characters of both the Imperial Guard and the Iron Warriors had character development. So when one side finally died, you were split. Now, if you disliked a side in SoI, it was probably for more then simply "he screams too much".



Revelations said:


> The only reason Kharne works, is because his 1-dimension works within his world and the 40K world. Bloodthrisy, violent, no-talk-more-action, kill everything attitude and a generally badassery make him enjoyable. Not to mention his reckless abandon for friend or foe in axes reach. But then you look at another 1-dimensional character; Huron... what exactly makes anyone want to play him? The only thing I find interesting about this character is the little familiar he's toting around, but there's no information whatsoever on that little pecker, so where's the motivation to give a damn?


Killing is Kharn's thing. He isn't so much a character as a force of nature. And that is why he is so damn cool.



Revelations said:


> Now one could easily support this with the latest changes to the Chaos Codex and the Marine Codex. We all know Marines are the poster boys of GW, so why not remove all the flavorlisiousness of the Chaos boys while throwing the Marines WAAAAAAAAAAY too many bones? You remove the character developments, remove their character statuses, and suddenly your left with an army that not to many people are interested in.
> 
> I mean, the 2nd greatest sorcerer in all the universe, who even the god of magic has kept an eye on, suddenly suffers from splitting migraines caused by warp entities? While amazingly, the big blueberry can somehow manage to repel an invasion of the most terrifying super soldiers ever to torment your nightmares with a handful of old men with pitch forks?


Yeah... I ain't going to touch that. Needless to say, I agree with you a whole bunch. Especially if the rumors about the IG codex are true. Not that I mind the Guard getting some love, but why is everyone getting a magic super-nifty codex after my beloved CSM were just publicly stripped, raped, then had their legs removed?



Revelations said:


> So without continuing on that tiff, suddenly the villains become vanilla (huh... interesting similarities to those two words...) and lose a great deal of likability as their complexities are stripped away from them. And on the other side of the spectrum, even the heroes remain one dimensional in their; "oh look, i can beet everytin wit my handz tied behin my back!" characterizations.


You know, the four prime powers of Chaos use to mean something other then simply "War God, Magic God, Plague God, Sex God". Have we forgotten that? These were complex ideas that displayed the darker nature of mankind, effectively creating the greatest conflict of the 40k universe to be Man against Himself. Not any more. 5th edition chaos are just badguys with spikes.



Revelations said:


> Give me a villain with a mind and a purpose. Give me a hero with a flaw and a tragedy. It's what made me enjoy the fluff portion of 40k, because each one was unique in their own way. But lately they've just been plain f**king it up... OK, need to stop the rant...


No, you have a point. Though, tragic hero is over-done. Personally, I like a story where the hero overcomes their personal flaws, yet still loses. I like a story where you aren't sure who the hero is. And those are the stories that define 40k. This is a universe so terrible that compassion doesn't have a place. So you have dark gray fighting to void of space black. That is the 40k universe.

This is the most important fact about Warhammer 40000: Evil (in its many forms) has won, is winning, and will win. 



Revelations said:


> But don't ask what kind; we hate that.


Those sorts of questions inspire us to turn you into the next batch.


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## AzraelJahannam (Jun 28, 2008)

*wonders if Alpha Legion might just still be closet loyalists what with all the "For the Emperor!" and turning to chaos to save the imperium and whatnot and seeming to always strike in places that encourgage rebuilding and further strengthening of the Imperium afterwards...* ssshhhh! :grin:

Kharn seems to be the kind of fellow you could have a beer with, chase women with, then kick back and relax before RUNNING AMOK WITH CHAINAXES IN MANLY FRENZIES OF BLOOD CRAZED MINDLESS BUTCHERY!!! BAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!!!!

*cough* but yeah, he seems like a pretty good guy


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

yah thats true. But i dont know. Those alien bastards could have been lieing to them. But either way they are doomed. FOREVER>>> FOREVER>>> FOREVER>>> FOREVER


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## Ardias26 (Sep 26, 2008)

Need more stuff on the emperors children..personally I think they have the most fluff potential of the lot and it sucks that games workshop and forgeworld keeps blowing them off, Khornes gang already has a lot of models and all the EC gets are some crappy noise blasters


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I somewhat agree. I'm not really sure about much of what they did after the Heresy. Last I heard they were fighting the World Eaters in that one planet. I forgot if the world eaters won that one or if it was a stalemate. The important thing is that its where Kharn got his nickname the betrayer. I enjoyed that book fulgrim though. My favorite so far or the series. I just thought that the Emperor's Children seemed to be more interesting before the heresy. Fulgrim before the heresy infact might be might be my favorite primarch in fact. Before he got possesed I think he was pretty much horus's right hand.

Im pretty sure i also read that they had second most victories to the Luna Wolves or they were pretty much competing with the Ultra Marines. Im not quite sure. I might be thinking too much.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

oh man... i was just thinken about the dark angels post i put down earlier in this thread. If you learn the whole truth about them they have really little to do with chaos. The fallen are really just emperor loyalists being hunted down by a chapter whos primarch is a selfish arse. Lets not talk about them in this thread. hahah. Unless Lion El' Johnson finally sees the power of tzeench none of the dark angels, especially the fallen (with a couple exceptions) will ever really understand the power of chaos.


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## Khaos_Omen (Jan 15, 2009)

The lion has been hiding in his rock with the watchers long enough to be whispered a whole mess of evil from the chaos gods. It would be nice to see him released and cause some massive destruction against the false emporer and his pathetic minions. Embrace the war cries of Khorne and fulfill your true destiny muhahahah...
BFTBG!!!


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Whats the deal with the Night Lords. From my understanding, the reason why they joined horus was very much the way Alpharious and his Twin did. Like he could read the future, so he got depressed and just joined chaos. My question is what the heck happened? There was this one instince where he did something... right, so the emperor had Dorn take him to custody. They got in a fight and he kicked dorn's ass and his gaurds and ran away. This all before the heresy. So he was kind of "on the wanted list" before any other legion. 

Can someone help me out and elaborate please. Im interested.


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## Warboss_Bork (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes in the name of slaanesh death to the eldar and death to the false emporer so let the gods feast upon his empire.I say to you let nurgle plague his city walls with death and decay. I say let tzeench cast dismay upon his followers. I say let khorne slay his council and soilders and feast upon there sweet blood and let him set there skulls atop his throne. I say let slaanesh blind them with sound,and fear let him scream in the emporers face until he is nothing than bone and muscle. This is the will of choas!!!:shok::shok::shok:

*muahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahha*


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> Whats the deal with the Night Lords. From my understanding, the reason why they joined horus was very much the way Alpharious and his Twin did. Like he could read the future, so he got depressed and just joined chaos. My question is what the heck happened? There was this one instince where he did something... right, so the emperor had Dorn take him to custody. They got in a fight and he kicked dorn's ass and his gaurds and ran away. This all before the heresy. So he was kind of "on the wanted list" before any other legion.
> 
> Can someone help me out and elaborate please. Im interested.


Nighthaunter did have the powers of foresight, but more aptly; he could see the darkest possible futures. Even when he met the Emporer, he knew the events that were going to play out. 

He turned to Chaos like the other because he felt betrayed. His legion was employed to strike terror into their enemies and use their very savage and brutal tactics to get the job done. After the great crusade, he and his legion were scapegoated for the very actions they were commanded to peform. 

He and Dorn did fight, and Nighthaunter did whoop his ass, but the other Primarchs came to bear and he split rather than facing the Emporer. The reasons for this fight are under scrutiny, for another tale asserts that Nighthaunter shared his visions of Horus betrayal, and Dorn disagreed with him rather bluntly. 

His character closely resembles the likes of Batman or Spawn. A very violent vigilanty that doesn't play by the systems rules but produces more results than they could dream. 

And of course, he's responsible for two of the 'coolest' lines in 40k fluff...

_"Konrad Curze, be at peace, for I have arrived and intend to take you home." 

"That is not my name, Father. I am Night Haunter, and I know full well what you intend for me." _

...and...

_"Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication." _

The Lexicanum is a great source for a lot of information you seem to be looking for.


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

Hi I'm Digg, commander of the 59th Imperial Fists crusade to the Western Fringe and I think I'm in the wrong meeting...


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Digg40k said:


> Hi I'm Digg, commander of the 59th Imperial Fists crusade to the Western Fringe and I think I'm in the wrong meeting...


hahahahahaha. no shit. jk. no man. if you want to know knew shit then your welcome to read all the interesting facts about the traitor chapters and stuff.


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Digg40k said:


> Hi I'm Digg, commander of the 59th Imperial Fists crusade to the Western Fringe and I think I'm in the wrong meeting...


Oh, no... no one who comes here is at the wrong meeting. They just haven't realized they are suppose to be here.

Come to Chaos. We have cookies.


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

Hello, my names Mick and ive been walking the path of the holy for the better part of 7 year now. Recently though, the wispers of those of the Fallen have not left my ears so here i am, falling to my damnation (and into the cookie jar)


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Micklez said:


> (and into the cookie jar)


The physical mutations of Chaos bring new meaning to the phrase; "to many hands in the cookie jar." 




...but the women love it. :wink:


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Revelations said:


> The physical mutations of Chaos bring new meaning to the phrase; "to many hands in the cookie jar."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Was that a pro-Slaanesh or pro-Tzeentch statement? I can't tell! :laugh:


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

mmmmm cookies......chocolate chips you say? Wouldnt you like to know what they are?


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

AzraelJahannam said:


> *wonders if Alpha Legion might just still be closet loyalists what with all the "For the Emperor!" and turning to chaos to save the imperium and whatnot and seeming to always strike in places that encourgage rebuilding and further strengthening of the Imperium afterwards...* ssshhhh! :grin:


Well until you smacktards get a book with cultists, good chosen, good godless marines, good possessed, GODLY chaos lords(Never happens. GW say the potential in third edition and took it away forever.), and make our side of the army playable, we're going to be represented by every marine book out there, with long, enigmatic stories about how alpha legion became so enraged at Phil Kelly and Graham (Needstobefiredton) they gain preffered enemy against everything for fifty points and a nifty champ along with it.

Also kudos on non-one dimensional villains. It'd be FANTASTIC if we got some of those. Instead of "I am one with the chinchilla" Huron Nobodycares.


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## Lord Lucius (Sep 18, 2008)

I actually like Huron,why no love?


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## khorne follower (Feb 19, 2009)

chaos is strong with the force huh i didnt no chaos have the force lol every legion has one badass character like world eaters kharn the beytrayer or abbadon the despoiler and typhus the nurgle guy


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## khorne follower (Feb 19, 2009)

*chaos guys*

chaos is strong with the force huh i didnt no chaos have the force lol every legion has one badass character like world eaters kharn the beytrayer or abbadon the despoiler and typhus the nurgle guy :victory:


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Lord Lucius said:


> I actually like Huron,why no love?


Because he makes the rest of the chaos lords look bad? Really, this guy is like three steps away from going an evil goatee and practicing his evil laugh in the mirror. He probably already kills the trusted messenger.

:laugh:

Okay, not really. I have no idea on how Huron acts. Just that he was a greedy megalomaniac and he caused maybe three other SM chapters to go renegade without know it. Gotta give him props there. I just wanted to make jokes.

But remember people: evil is not one dimensional. As a Chaos Lord, I actually do read the Evil Overlord list (yeah, thats a link). And for the record, I have never turned into a snake. It never helps. 

:biggrin:


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I like honsou from the Iron Warriors. He's like the "Rocky" in his legion


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

i think huron is a pussy, but that's just me. i like the guys who have been slaughtering people for the ten thousand year periods, i think honsou is the only exception cause he is such a badass.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Its too bad hes a half breed. when he becomes a immortal daemon prince like me, no one will tell the difference though


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> i think huron is a pussy, but that's just me. i like the guys who have been slaughtering people for the ten thousand year periods, i think honsou is the only exception cause he is such a badass.


So what? Honsou has been slaughtering people for like 9900 years or something? He was created from IF geneseed, most likely taken from the Iron Cage incident. That happened right after the HH, so he can't be that much younger then the rest of them.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

But... its fucken Honsou. Of course its an exception. Its like saying... who hates Rocky? No one. Who hates Honsou? No.... no one?


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## Lupercal's Chosen (May 8, 2008)

For The Warmaster Lupercal Lupercal, Death To The False Emperor!!!


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

i still think huron is a pussy, dont know why i just dont like him. honsou is an iron warrior and was taking under the warsmith's wings once he was created so he was taught chaos the good and proper way, as for huron he's a fruit. i really dont know why but i really dont like him and if i ever met him on the battlefield i would kill him myself.......ehem so what about those cookies?


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## Lord Lucius (Sep 18, 2008)

you know who I hate ,Lucius(I know Im using his name)because hes an aragant arse hole in the heresy


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

yah even though im chaos, he kind of bitched out when he chose sides. HE killed marius i think that was his name. That was kind of sad. 
As for Huron, i wouldn't actually mind being him, he probably has more fun being the chaos lord pirate he is than any other chaos lord. Nothing he has really belongs to him, they are all prizes. Thats pretty cool. Nice ship.... I take yo ship. If i were him id be like.. . nice lady friends you have... there... il take them


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