# Missile Weapons



## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Does anyone feel that they're becoming too prevalent currently in warhammer? The missile/gunline army at least in my club is becoming a very common sight. Naturally this effects some armies more than others (chaos often, brettonians certain builds etc).

So the question is, do you feel that missile weaponry is appropriately priced or appropriately kitted out, with rising ballistic skills and ranged weapon strength, is this all balanced in line with the idea of warhammer being about epic melee brawls and ranks....

I at least, feel that missile weapons should be a tactical addition to the game, but should not be a stand alone aspect.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw (Mar 23, 2009)

I for one, agree with you. nothing in my opinion ruins the game more than gunlines. They are super boring to fight against, In some situations guns/bows/artillery are fun fluffy and useful even *shudders* fair. But I think they are becoming overly prevalent in certain situations.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't know about all armies gunlines but all the Empire missile troops are fairly expensive compared to the basic troops and to get a concentrated gunline its the epitome of fragile one sneeze and they all drop dead of swineflu.
Cannons and mortars are fairly cheap but given that the only model that makes them remotely reliable is otherwise pointless evens them out.
The volley gun lives off its reputation of earlier editions and the 5 point drop for the need to roll to hit is in no way a fair trade off. The rocket is little more than pretty and I would'nt take one iff it was free.
outriders are expensive artillery guards especially with any upgrades and lack of move and shoot kills them, pistolieers are great though.


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

I don't have a problem with the balance of missile troops and gunline armies personally. I can understand frustration when facing masses of them regularly, but I find that their dominance of the shooting phase leaves them exposed in the 3 other phases. They generally don't move (excepting woodies of course), they usually just have a scroll caddy and hope you roll low for magic and their combat phase is normally awful.

It can be a game of 'can I get to grips with them before they kill too many of my troops?', but if that is the case on a regular basis then perhaps it is time to break out some more terrain, or try out a new tactic or bring wulfric/gorgers/miners, etc in abundance. There is a local player that often likes to bring gunlines, he almost always loses as people know those items, units and tactics that are anti-gunline are a safe bet and wallop him.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

I'd say it sure has become more popular, any army that allows winning without thought is very popular in warhammer, I don't think I've seen a none gun/bow/whatever line in years


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

I wanted to make a themed army, which essentially was the knights templar, in this army there would be only knight models. I thought of gunline prevalence when considering my army as the S4 -2 AS would probably just rip apart my 50 model knight army......

I can concentrate on a single flank and with my fastest movement, he's still going to get two full rounds of shooting against me, probably 70 odds shots + artillery .

I figured that would be about 35-40 hits, 20 or so wounds and 10 saves. If I went for the ward save and missed the first turn I would probably save 1-2 more, but I doubt that'd be worth it.....Then they get to stand and shoot, so my small army would lose about a third of itself before it even got to the enemy, that's no small number, especially considering how the army fights.

The army atm was something roughly like
2x Damsel (lv2)
Bretonnian Lord on Hippogrif
Paladin (BSB) banner of the lady
Paladin

Knight of the realm 12
Knight of the realm 12
Knight of the realm 12
Pegasus Knights 6
Grail Knights 9

Bear in mind its aiming to be competitive and themed....

There are some deadly elements to it however, the grail knights will get 14 S5 attacks on the charge for example.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Then come watch my ogres... they often start out as a CC line of death (soon splinter into a typical MSU fight- so many units buzzing around you cant stop tehm all from getting into a flank). Normally the only ranged weapons I have is on the gnoblars (who are only there to die anyway) and maybe on a hunter if im feeling like it.
Admitedly this has more to do with not having any ranged weapons worth taking rather then my dislike of them.

One of the main reasons I went for ogres was the knowledge that if I ran an army that could make an effective gunline or other 'beardy' list then I would get sucked into doing so... the only beards in my ogre army book are on the ogres themselves


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

I have never really played down the gunline route despite my main army being Empire as its not something that really appeals to me.
The closest I get to a gunline is with my ogres but thats more a danger to itself than the enemy half the time if I really want to upset gunline players I just take my chaos dwarf army as they shrug off most incoming fire, Failing that the earth shaker cannon dropping its load in the general area of a gunline is enough to upset most players and 2 can shut out a whole armies shooting.


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## Dafistofmork (Jan 9, 2009)

my dwarfs, whilst having a nasty amount of firepower, relay on my solid blocks of infantory to carry the game. too often has the enemy charged me early on turn 2 or 3 and pulverised my gunline, only to bump into my 20 ironbreakers, 10 hammerers and lord and take a pasting.
so whilst more people are playing a gunline, it can be countered easily.


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## HorusReborn (Nov 19, 2008)

Gun lines are not important to me. Sure I bring a Cannon or two, and handgunners, but I use the gunners as detachments for stand and shoot when my Halberdiers are being charged. You gotta look at the selections the armies have. Handgunners are core, sooo get used to it. Tailor your army to trounce them if they go that way man!! That's what the game is about! What drives me nuts is an empire army with all knights, sure they're core, but go play bretonnia! LOL

The one thing the guys I play with have noticed and I have to agree with is GW's need to have an uneven balance of missile troops in armies. Most of the good guys have missile weaps, while most of the bad guys have nothing really save javelins and throwing axes. It's an imbalance that can affect a game drastically!


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

It was more a question of theme, rather than balance.

If one wishes massed range combat, go play wh40k instead, whfb is all about melee, least it used to be


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## Tha Tall One (Aug 16, 2008)

A good melee unit is still better then a good missle unit. If you manage to get in close combat you will fight both in your and your opponentes CCfases, hence making him pay for the models he killed at range. Chaos Knights of Tzeentch with Blasted Standard = Epic.
Wulfrik is also a very nice vs gunlines. As is a sorcerer of Slaanesh. If they have war machine crew, just lure them away with a delusions spell and they can't fire for 2 turns.
For getting him close to the enemy I put him on a Steed of Slaanesh, and prefer the "Quick! Hide in the bushes!" tactic.
Though noboddy i know plays Empire and thus I never played against an Empire gunline.
Goblins are awesome too, I once killed a waywatcher unit with a Goblin screen. He forgot I could waagh with animosity and rolled double one too flee, hence massacring the waywatchers with a cheapo unit.

Anyway, I don't really care about gunline armies. If someone would field it I would massacre him so hard he would never field one again

Yet indeed CC is more fun to do, especcialy with Chaos...


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## Mutants_ho! (Jul 3, 2008)

I have to agree that (when I last played) gunlines were very boring and kinda took from the fun of the game.

Overall their effectiveness is not very high and most of my armies pwned them each and every time I fought one. They are really just a bore and I often dislike the personality of the person playing them as well.

And Horus, if you like the models and the fluff of a Knightly order more than that of the aurtherian bretons (as I do) then there is no reason why you should not make the army.

I feel that if you like the gun line type of army then you should go for it, even if it is boring to play against, because it is what you like. What drives me crazy is an intolerance of other peoples tastes, it is not your army that you are spending an odle of cash on, so you should respect the persons desision.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Being a chaos player, I can't really comment over Gunlines.

However, it does just turn the game into one of luck. Did you roll to hit? No, shame, I'm in combat, you're dead. Damn, you hit, oh I'm dead.


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Being a chaos player, I can't really comment over Gunlines.
> 
> However, it does just turn the game into one of luck. Did you roll to hit? No, shame, I'm in combat, you're dead. Damn, you hit, oh I'm dead.


Chaos suffer worst due to gunlines of them all.

I watched a chaos v dwarf game, the chaos guy lost about 3/4 of his army before closing, granted there were things he could've done better, but S4 -2 save guns tend to shred 'elite' armies who rely on their armour a lot, whilst annoying armies with no/little armour. The amount of guns this guy had was well beyond a joke and almost agrivating....almost, I was only watching.

If you ask me, it's the "my fun is more important than yours" mentality, where one player takes the path which he feels will maximise his own enjoyment of the game, whilst giving little concern to the enjoyment the other is having.

Playing as a gunline may be enjoyable, but playing against one sure as hell isn't, whilst they may find their way into tournaments, the gunlines tend to be avoided by many players who just refuse to play against them, not because they will lose, but because it isn't fun.

Add in to this, that a serious dwarf gunline will probably have a flame cannon or two and a few cannons and with certain factions, making it to the enemy can be quite a challenge, with others not much of a challenge though mind you.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

NagashKhemmler said:


> If you ask me, it's the "my fun is more important than yours" mentality, where one player takes the path which he feels will maximise his own enjoyment of the game, whilst giving little concern to the enjoyment the other is having.


unfortunately this is something that has really become far more common in todays games of 40k and fantasy


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

I know that both empire and dwarf gunlines are dull but how is it any more unbalanced than a full on warriors of chaos combat monster army. The average Empire trooper doesn't stand a chance against a marauder let alone a chaos warrior.
Even worse of a match up is ogres versus High elves with asf its hard enough to hit them with their better ws made even harder by the fact that they get to kill you first (with no discernable armour save toughness 4's not that helpful) 
So for some army builds a high level of missile output is the only way to level the playing field even if it is the most boring game to play and watch.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

Well, I don't know. I know one of the guys at our local gameshop does Dwarf Gunline. He's never beaten me effectively with any of my hard-hitting armies at all. Now that I'm going for Dwarfs, Dunno. Going with a lot of missile troops, but also hard hitting blocks!

Dark Elf; Wood Elf; Chaos Mortal; Lizard. Give me a gunline any day! It's great!


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

As much as some people dislike gunlines there are plenty who think a mass of artillery and ranged weapons is fantastic. It is all very well to say it makes the game boring, but plenty of dedicated gunline players I have met have expressed the view that all melee is boring and all magic is tedious.

Either way, gunlines are a part of Fantasy and always have been to some degree or other, ever since Empire and Dwarfs brought cannons and guns to the table it was obvious someone was going to get excited about lots of gunpowder. I tend to find gunlines a little dull if there is no terrain and I have no counter, but that doesn't happen often, expect when the gunline player set the table up... 

Personally I find going all out for any of the phases a little dull at times, as much as people complain about gunlines locally nobody hates them as much as the armies that bring magic dice by the handful and remove half your army in turn one if lucky. Saying that in the past I have found a wall of melee and nothing else pretty boring too, 2 turns of plod, plod, plod, one of action then see who flees first. Which is why I bring something in most of the phases to liven it all up a bit!


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

I wish that the game was balanced properly- that rounded armies were the thing to fear and that stacking 1 phase left you vulnerable in others... but that is blatantly not the case

People with 15-20 powerdice at 2k annoy me but at least you can get anti-magic protection: DS, magic items, wargear and magic resistance can all be used as anti-magic.
Gun lines are possibly more hated because there isnt so many ways of countering them- sure you may have a special rule, a banner or a piece of wargear that gives a ward save vs shooting but its not really going to shut the opponents shooting phase down.
- I just wish there was an equivalent of a hellheart for shooting (it makes ALL PD doubles miscast on the Gutmagic table for a whole turn).


Though as neilbatte said some armies are almost auto-matic loses if they battle each other- ogres vs high elves may well be the worst match in all GW (possibly even worse then crons vs orks). HE will outshoot OK, can easily outmagic them and unless the ogre player can seriously outmanouver the elves (or happens to get really jammy on the important fear tests) then the HE will win dynamic CR (WS3, T4 and essentially no saves mean lots of easy wounds if you strike at all) as well as having a huge bonus in SCR


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

There are plenty of counters to a gunline, I would imagine if we put our heads together we could think of at least one good counter for every armybook. Some require a little inventiveness, others are just plain obvious in my opinion.

Off the top of my head:

Wulfric
Gorgers
Miners
Earth Shaker Cannon
Drycha or a character with the Moonstone (relies on woods somewhat)
Any skirmishers (particularly so against BTs)
Any scouts and/or units with KB shots or sniping ability, particularly if the shooting forces panic tests, etc)
Stone Throwers (if you are good at guessing and why not with most warmachines deployed on table edges)

Since we know that a lot of gunline armies don't bother with much magic:

Lore of Metal - Commandment of Brass
Lore of Shadow - Pit of Shades
Lore of Heavens - Comet of Casandora
Lore of Life - The Rain Lord
Lore of Life - Master of Stone
Lore of Death - Steal Soul (particularly against warmachines with only 2 crew)
OnG magic - Foot of Gork and Gork's Warpath

I am sure there are plenty more. The point is not that these are foolproof, just that no army is unbeatable, particularly one that deliberately weakens itself in one or more phase. They are tough to beat sometimes but then so are other well played, or well built armies.

Having watched an 'unbeatable Dwarf gunline' being trashed 3 games in a row, once by gorgers the other times by good tactics, I tend not to subscribe to this idea they are foolproof.


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> I wish that the game was balanced properly- that rounded armies were the thing to fear and that stacking 1 phase left you vulnerable in others... but that is blatantly not the case
> 
> People with 15-20 powerdice at 2k annoy me but at least you can get anti-magic protection: DS, magic items, wargear and magic resistance can all be used as anti-magic.
> Gun lines are possibly more hated because there isnt so many ways of countering them- sure you may have a special rule, a banner or a piece of wargear that gives a ward save vs shooting but its not really going to shut the opponents shooting phase down.
> ...


Stopping 15 dice is almost impossible, it's quite annoying....I played a goblin bowline today and smashed it, fast cav with bows and archers aplenty....it wasn't enjoyable but it was a slaughter, I was down 6 heavy kav, 1 tomb guard and 6 skeletons by the end.


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