# Thoughts and Opinions on Garviel Loken



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey everyone.

This is a much smalled topic than I usually like starting threads over, however given the characters incredible popularity I'll risk it. Basically I'll warn any would be readers here, that spoilers will be allowed to fly very liberally when discussing this character. So if you haven't read the original HH trilogy, get your butts in gear and go out and buy them!

So in order to try and make this into a proper and valid discussion I want to discuss a few things about this character:

1. Vey simple, do you like him, is he your favourite, and why?

2. What is your favourite Loken moment or scene?

3. (And this is my main motivation for starting this thread) Now that it is widely assumed he will be coming back, what is your opinion on that specifically?

So for me :

1. The character is rightly hailed as one of the best written in the entire series (although he does have the benefit of getting three novels for characterization). Even now that I have gone back and begun re-reading the series I immediately have begun to enjoy the character again, despite my belief that some of the newer ones would have been better (Ahriman, John Grammaticus, Argel Tal).

2. For me, my favourite Loken moment will always be his sparring match with Lucius of the Emperor's Children (future Lucius the Eternal). Lucius, as some of you may know, is by far my favourite character, but I will admit a heavy bias in this regard. So for Loken to be so important to my favourite characters future development (he scars himself initially to remember his bout with Loken in which his nose is broken due to his own overconfidence) is why it will always be my favourite moment.

3. This is why I started the thread, and this is why if it is true, the character will never be the same for me. IMO he should have died on Istvan, and I'm still hoping that this may yet be the case. The rumours that he will survive the Heresy are just horrible, as that means he is going to basically be Mr Invulnerable who has so far survived countless battles, a virus bombing, a fight with Abaddon and more besides. If this character were to die on Istvan I think it would be much more tragic and would serve the character better as a whole. He viewed his Legion descend into rebellion against the Emperor and it's first steps on the road to Chaos worship, he always maintained his own integrity and in many ways was a true Luna Wolf (one of the few). 

So those are my thoughts and opinions, what are yours?

(Also these types of thread usually end up with people answering the three questions I have set out, but please feel free to add your own as well and I, and hopefully others, will give some replies. This thread is about everything Loken related.)


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> 1. Vey simple, do you like him, is he your favourite, and why?


He was always just a little bit too goody too shoes for me. A bit on the naiive side but having said that he grew as a charachter and was shaped by his experiences in the heresy so I would imagine the Loken that walks out of that collapsed, virus bombed building will be a somewhat different animal to what went in.



D-A-C said:


> 2. What is your favourite Loken moment or scene?


"You were supposed to bring balance to the force not leave it in darkness!!!!" never mind wrong franchise. Guess I'll go with the penultimate duel with Abbaddon on Isstvan seeing as how Lucius' beating has been taken.



D-A-C said:


> 3. (And this is my main motivation for starting this thread) Now that it is widely assumed he will be coming back, what is your opinion on that specifically?


Same as yourself for the most part. The only thing I will say on this is that, like many have said, the HH is a tragedy we needed to see Loken suffer and probably he needed to die to put the reader where they needed to be. Romeo and Juliet wouldn't be a classic if Romeo by the end of it stood up dusted himself off and lived happily ever after. 

Looking at it in another light though and as I touched on earlier Loken did die, at least his innocence did, he saw his best friend decapitated, lost most of his brothers and nearly died himself so maybe that could be _just about_ enough.


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> 1. Vey simple, do you like him, is he your favourite, and why?
> 
> torgaddon was my favourite of the mournvil, still loken was an excellent charactor for the point of view of the book, his rationality and loyalty allowing him to sense the change in horus and the legion better than torgaddon could have.
> 
> ...


Rather annoyed it was a lovely symbollic death that i enjoyed and felt was well ended representing hours's total fall and the crushing of all feeling towards the emperor in the forces of the sons of horus,

I dont want him back yet i can see the reasoning


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Will I like to see Loken return? Well my opinion on such things has been spread across countless threads over the months since we've known of Loken's return. On the face of things no, I thought his death on Isstvan was very symbolic of the death of the Luna Wolves, the Great Crusade and the Imperium as a whole. His return cheapens Horus' betrayal in this regard. 

In regards to Loken, I found something on a forum a while back and had it saved on a word document (because of the unique interpretation and very interesting argument it proposed). However I can't for the life of me remember what forum it was or who posted it. So if the author does read this, apologies that you have not been given due credit. But this is the bulk of it:



> The First Mournival (With Sejanus instead of Loken) appear to be especially related to him. The Mournival are the four Sons of Horus. Each of which fulfill one of Horus' four humors. I would argue that they Are Horus. Be it clones or mental projections or he was five different people. They may not even be real. Abbaddon may actually Be Horus... Note how Horus turns because Sejanus died. That was the Noble part of him killed. He tried to replace him with Loken to give him counsel, but Loken wasn't part of him the way Sejanus was and it all started falling apart. Thus eventually Horus' turn ends in Loken being attacked by Abaddon. Horus is casting away his inhibition. He "chose the sword" killing off Loken and allowing himself to become Abaddon. The Emperor killed the Phlegmatic piece. The Invisibles killed his conscience. Aximand killed Torgaddon. I'm guessing Aximand will die before this is over, leaving only Abaddon. Abaddon, the Despoiler.
> 
> Phlegmatic: Horus - He's pretty well rounded
> 
> ...





> I see the symbolism of what you're saying as exactly what McNeil intended. The Mournival represented Horus' own differing opinions. When he falls, he stops listening to Loken and Torgaddon and eventually has them "killed". He's expunging what he sees as his own weaknesses and his hesitations as to whether he is doing the right thing.





> I would think the value of the Mournival comes from their ability to think outside of the constraints of Horus' own mind while still reflecting the immense scope of his personality and intellect.





> There is however something strange about the four of them beyond it. They're the only Luna wolves mentioned as looking like him to my knowledge. It hints that they're aspects of him. Basically it all comes down to the idea in the Egyptian mythology. Horus had four "sons" which were aspects of him. it also makes that much more sense why Horus fell over Sejanus. If Sejanus represented his "Do the Right Thing" part of his mind and Erebus preyed on that it would make sense why he'd heed the illusion. Erebus was essentially saying "Do the right thing, betray the Emperor."
> 
> Murnival apparently means four of a kind in cards. Four suits. 1 Hand. I mean its not impossible. Maybe Horus didn't even know they were part of him. Maybe he did. It would be interesting either way.





> He was surrounded by four men who held the main characteristics he wanted to factor into his advice giving. A noble and calculating hero, a glory seeking warrior, an utterly loyal servant, and a beloved joker. Horus was all of those things so he chose four men to offer him council. They're almost like mentors or something. Theres an interesting dynamic where men beneath his command are effectively his superiors.
> 
> Then he loses his Nobility. He attempts to rally by recruiting Loken (who I think is ultimately the cause of his fall because we should assume Sejanus would have stopped him.) He likes Loken but he doesn't love him like a brother. So when Loken has to say the hard truth as his role as a "Hamlet" (ie an introvert obsessed with doing the right thing) Loken is considered but Horus just doesn't have the same sort of defense against his ambition.
> 
> ...


It's a very interesting take on Loken and the Mournival as a whole. And now we know that Loken will return into the series at some point, (looking at his return through this theory) how will his return effect Horus? Will Loken's survival represent Horus' self-doubt (if it's discovered he held any) at his own rebellion against the Emperor?


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## jack (Oct 30, 2008)

I always liked Loken. I agree he was a bit naieve but that was just part of his character. If he was totally perfect he would have been a bit boring.
The part where he turns his back on the lodge on Davin is a defining moment, i think. 

I think maybe like NiceGuyEddie that his comeback could be pulled off if handled well.
I dont know if this is correct but ive heard some fluff about when the Emperor was mortally injured one of his protectors threw himslef in front of a bolt of energy to save the emperor. This caused the Emperor to lose all hope that his son could be reconciliated and enabled the Emperor to gain victory. I think that this could be a good part for Loken although I'd have no idea how he could get into that situation. It could show his ability to sacrifice everything and give his all. 
He certainly shouldnt survive the series.


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## Captain Stillios (Mar 8, 2009)

1. Vey simple, do you like him, is he your favourite, and why?
Loken is my third favourite HH character after Argel Tal at first and Ahriman at second.

2. What is your favourite Loken moment or scene?
Everything on Isstvan II particularly when he fought Kharn and when he put a CHAINSWORD THROUGH TERMINATOR ARMOUR!!

3. (And this is my main motivation for starting this thread) Now that it is widely assumed he will be coming back, what is your opinion on that specifically?

I love that he is coming back however I have said it before that I would love for the person that Horus kills while fighting the Emperor to be Loken...


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

To start its not even a rumour that he's coming back. Abnett has directly stated Loken will be coming back and that his fate was blown wildly out of proportion, and that those who have said he is not coming back ar lying. That being said

1. I loved Lokens characters, i would say he's my favourite along with Garro, Torgaddon and Tarvitz (and maybe Qruze aswell, i have alot of favourites to be fair). His character was brilliantly written and developed, from the competent and rising captain to an integral member of the mournival and the Legion itself as a result. His dedication to the Emperor and his sense of duty to do the right think were commendable. His realtionship with the remembrancers is even now very rare amongst the Astartes. But it was his unwavering loyalty to the Imperium, even when almost all others stood against him and his unwavering moral stance that truely marked him out for greatness. Plus i just genuinely enjoyed his scenes, martial prowess, humour and interaction with the rest of the mournival and Horus.

2. Favourite scene? One punching dropping Lucius is always going to be one of the best parts of the entire series. His fight with Abaddon as already mentioned was brilliant. 

3. I've come to terms with the fact that he is coming back and have accepted it. We will no doubt see a completely different Loken from now on. He's now been betrayed by his Primarch, Legion, fellow mournival, watched first hand his closest brother decapitated by another close on, been brutally wounded by Abaddon and not even left given the honour of being killed first hand, instead being left to die burried amongst the rubble. He is now going to have to contend with the possible deaths of Vipus and Tarvitz, the former being one of his oldest friends, although i think it may very well be Tarvitz and Vipus who rescue him. And then he now has to come to terms with his beloved Imperium being torn in half by Horus treachery. 

Having said that his 'death' did fully complete Horus transition from the brightest star to the arch-traitor. By killing Loken and Tarik he was ridding himself of the final major obstacle on his path to damnation. They were the two most dangerous members of the legion, commanding great respect and power, now they are gone the legion is fully under his control again. But again, i've got over the initial feelings of dislike to him surviving

EDIT: On CotE's post. Very interesting stuff, however i do strongly disagree on the last point in it accusing Heresy being Lokens fault. I've said in another post aswell about the Custode who Horus zaps infront of the Emperor possibly being exhanged for Loken, would be interesting to say at the least, although many are still firm believers that the luckless soldier should be a complete unknown


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> It's a very interesting take on Loken and the Mournival as a whole. And now we know that Loken will return into the series at some point, (looking at his return through this theory) how will his return effect Horus? Will Loken's survival represent Horus' self-doubt (if it's discovered he held any) at his own rebellion against the Emperor?


Perhaps against chaos, you note at the end of Fulgrim he vows to try and free his brother from the daemon. Perhaps loken is symbolic of his self doubt at the path he has taken


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

1. I adore Loken, Horus Rising was my very first foray into the world of 40k, having always passed it off as a geeky game, picking that book up really changed my perceptions and introduced me to a wonderful new world.
So because of that I'll always like Loken, not the favourite, that accolade goes to and Cherubael(sp?), but Loken is a very close second.

2. Has to be fighting Lucius.

3. I would rather have had him stay dead, I thought it was a fitting end for him, like the Imperium, he gave it his best shot but ultimately he failed, I saw it as a sign of things to come.
Saying that though, I hope Abnett, McNeil or ADB write his next part, I don't think any other HH author could do him justice.


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## Fancyxeno21 (Sep 8, 2010)

1. Personally I love Loken. He is my favorite fictional character of all time. His character personality and just everything about how he is portrayed I like. 

2. When he punches Lucius, man I hate that traitorious bastard. 

3. I personally am very happy that Loken is alive. I had come to terms with his death, but I feel that GW can make him being alive really awesome. Obviously he is going to be a completely different character, so I think it will be a nice change of events. 

Regarding CotE's post: That theory I actually really like, made me think about Horus in ways I had never thought possible, though I disagree with Loken starting the heresy over Erebus. Without Erebus, Horus would not of had the option to turn.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

1. I loved Loken because he was the Hero that was never really meant to be. I like CotE's source there. It identifies his role in the heresy pretty well. Loken really shouldn't have been elevated to the position he was put to. But when he got the position he was given he did the best he could. His strive to be the best he could become made him a lovable character in the Heresy. And I truly think he maybe the best character. But despite all his struggle he wasn't really fit for such a position. 

2. May favorite Loken scene must be when he is talking to Sindermann after his lector about how the Imperium is right. I remember it very vaguely but it was interesting to see an astartes accept the word of a mere mortal and trust him. I also like the ideology that kind of brain washes the Imperium. You can see why first hand the people of the Imperium are dogmatic. I remember where he says something to loken about how they should fight to preserve humanity even when they don't accept it. He describes it like a drowning man who doesn't want to be saved.

3. I actually like the fact that he is coming back to the Heresy. Sure his death on Istvaan was sad, but part of me said "this can't be!" Loken represents hope for the traitor legions not completely devastating the Imperium. But after reading what CotE copied and pasted, I must say, it totally has blown my mind how these three books have been able to work together with something so coherently (if indeed they did this on purpose). I just feel that they are better off just sticking with Dan Abnett and Graham McNeill for his reintroduction back into the Heresy.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> 3. I actually like the fact that he is coming back to the Heresy. Sure his death on Istvaan was sad, but part of me said "this can't be!" Loken


One problem, he isn't dead. :wink: Otherwise it would make it rather difficult to come back wouldn't it?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Hahaha. Take it as you will. Until Ben Counter confirmed he was alive he was basically dead. Its within the power of the writers and BL to bring back whom they wish. And so they did. This is not reality mind you its BL Fluff.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Personally, I have always thought rather the opposite..... basically because, as you say, its fiction. In books, if a major, and I mean MAJOR, character goes down, but isn't shown to be confirmed dead, they are alive. The way they "closed" this story seems to indicate that is isn't really over. However, that just how I approach things.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

1 loken was the captain made good, he proved he was a part of the mournival and never lost his integrity and he earnt the staunch ass moniker by being just that not afraid of his convictions and tried until the end to remind his brothers of who and what they were.

2 seeing as the fight with lucius is taken and it was my favourite bit, the other i think was during the opening salvo when he bested Abaddon to reaching the tower first and Nero said remember us little men when u reach the dizzing hieghts or words along that line, the other being the sparring match with Tarik when he was telling him he had been chosen to replace sejanus in the mournival..showed how literal Loken was and couldn't really see beyound Tariks joking.

3 should Loken come back. i am not sure to be honest, abaddon broke his back and concrete fell on him...if he came back (i know Abnett has confirmed it angel) but it would have to be a well written come back for it to be feasable and not a dallas dream like shower thing.

i think COTE that post might have been in the original BL forums and i can't for the life of me remember who wrote it.


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

1. Everyone loves Loken! How could anyone dislike him. Basically an underdog character rising through the greatest legion. Dan Abnett made it feel as if (at least in my case) you were loken, a normal being/astartes seeing all the glory and just not understanding things.

2. I liked Loken's fight with Abaddon. The whole time I felt it was like a football game in the fourth quarter and your team trying to win it.

3. I'm not sure about Loken comming back either. All I have to say to that is that BL better have someone write a good piece on him. Or else its just going to be cheesy. Dreadnought Loken with stupid sound effects on an audio or maybe he'll end up in a battle for the abyss and go super saiyan on the Word Bearers. 

By the way, wouldn't it be funny if the person who wrote that was one of the original Horus Heresy Trilogy Writers?


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Just wanted to give this topic, one more round on page one.

Does anyone else have any thoughts or opinions on the Loken?

The questions being asked are :

1. Vey simple, do you like him, is he your favourite, and why?

2. What is your favourite Loken moment or scene?

3. Now that it is widely assumed he will be coming back, what is your opinion on that specifically?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> 1. Vey simple, do you like him, is he your favourite, and why?


I do like Loken. I think it's easy to; he was set up to be the "point of view" character, after all, and was crafted to carry the traits that make him suitable for that role. He's honorable, reasonable, intelligent, and fair in his assessment of things.

Is he my favorite Heresy character? Maybe not anymore. Fact of the matter is, the nature of the story means that that the reader's POV will be read through a number of other characters. Garro is also very likeable, as are other, more minor, players, and while Loken might be the most solid of the bunch it might be a while before he's a protagonist again. Reading through him again might not be the same experience as it was in Books I-III.



> 2. What is your favourite Loken moment or scene?


I don't think there's any one scene/moment that jumps out... just as there isn't for Garro. I think it's his overall conflict/position that makes him good--the fact that he is loyal to the cause but still struggles with the pain he feels over his Legion's descent to betrayal makes him memorable.

Honestly, of all the Loyalists (from Traitor Legions), it's Temeter and Huron-Fal's death scene that really strikes me as memorable... which is apropos, given that--unlike Loken--they are given a definite death scene.



> 3. (And this is my main motivation for starting this thread) Now that it is widely assumed he will be coming back, what is your opinion on that specifically?


I thought Loken was dead for all of a couple of hours. Then I thought about Astartes fortitude, their organs, the fact that one of them is meant to keep them alive even after dire injuries, etc... and I guess there was never a time that I didn't entertain the idea that he'd be back.

In that sense, I haven't felt the disappointment/betrayal that so many others felt. Honestly, I would have felt much worse if Temeter and/or Huron-Fal came back. The Dreadnought gave the best epitaph for that duo I could imagine, after all.



> Even now that I have gone back and begun re-reading the series I immediately have begun to enjoy the character again, despite my belief that some of the newer ones would have been better (Ahriman, John Grammaticus, Argel Tal).


Give it time. Argel Tal has only gotten one book, as has Ahriman. Grammaticus is not meant to be a true POV character (he had too many secrets), and it could be argued that Ahriman is also too key to have his mindset and motivations shared with the audience.

I think Argel Tal will get more time, and I think he'll be a fun character as he will be the most natural vessel for the "Chaos story" to be conveyed through. He is a willing participant, after all, but his motivations for getting in on the project are far more human/understandable than some psychotic "serve the Gods!" impulse/brainwashing reaction. 



> 3. This is why I started the thread, and this is why if it is true, the character will never be the same for me. IMO he should have died on Istvan, and I'm still hoping that this may yet be the case.


I suppose I always considered Isstvan III to just be a chapter in Loken's overall experience. That is, in the sense that...

1. He was a Loyalist (introduction)
2. He was a Loyalist struggling with his Legion's corruption (conflict)
3. He was a Loyalist who saw failure in his internal struggle (as a Captain of the Mournival versus the growing corruption)
4. He will be the a survivor of the destroyed Loyalist remnant seeking vengeance.

It's precisely because I like Loken as much as I do that I hope his ultimate fate/death/whatever comes about during the climax of the struggle that is the Heresy.

*ckcrawford*, I'd like to address one thing you stated. That is, the idea that Loken should not have been elevated where he was. I kind of disagree... I think Loken's promotion was one of the last good decisions Horus made. The Mournival were meant to be a cadre of varying opinions, a group of battle-tested advisors the Warmaster could draw differing viewpoint from. Abaddon and Little Horus Aximand, whatever they were earlier in their careers, became little more than yes-men (that we can tell) in the end. Torgaddon, valiant and pleasant thought he might have been, was ineffective as a counter to them. Loken was exactly what was needed... but the tragedy of the matter is that he could not really compete with the intrigues and supernatural manipulation the Word Bearers brought to, well, bear.

Cheers,
P.


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## Bane_of_Kings (Oct 28, 2009)

*1. Vey simple, do you like him, is he your favourite, and why?*

Well, I'd have to say that Loken's tied with Kasper Hawser and Bear from _Prospero Burns_ as to who's my favourite character in the Heresy Series. Loken because Horus Rising was one of the first Black Library books that I read (aside from _Emperor's Mercy_ and _Chaos Child_), and it was the one that got me hooked on the fluff. 

Kasper because he's such an awesome character, and Bear because he's a Space Wolf and is one of my favourite characters. 

*2. What is your favourite Loken moment or scene?*

As others have posted before, my favourite moment is Loken punching Lucius in the nose. That, and the final fight with Abaddon.

*3. (And this is my main motivation for starting this thread) Now that it is widely assumed he will be coming back, what is your opinion on that specifically?*

I personally don't mind, although if done by anybody it should be done by Dan Abnett. I reckon only him, A-D-B, or possibly Graham McNeill could pull off something as epic as that.

Bane of Kings Out.


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## unixknight (Jul 26, 2010)

I love the character, and it was because I cared about the character that I enjoyed the first trilogy as much as I did. 

Having said that, I think I liked Ahriman and Argel Tal better, because they were a little easier to relate to... A little more human. They weren't as rigid and firm in their code and that makes them a bit more believable. Why is that a good thing? Because watching how they slid into Chaos is essentially watching how their Legions did. Ahriman embodies the Thousand Sons. Argel Tal embodies the Word Bearers. Garviel Loken, awesome as he was, never truly felt like he was a Luna Wolf...

...or maybe he was the only marine who WAS truly a Luna Wolf and remained so even when the rest of the Legion became the Sons of Horus. Either way, he always seemed like he was sort of on the outside looking in. That's not a criticism, mind you. I think that's exactly what he was meant to be. That way Loken is seeing things from the perspective of the reader, who is also on the outside looking in. As the Astartes of their legion slide into Chaos we, the readers, can see the plain and obvious which they're oblivious to, and Loken sees it too, and is as powerless as we are to warn them.

Favorite scene, as has been mentioned so many times, is the sparring match with Lucius. It showed Loken as being the sort of warrior who wins through his brain and clarity, not arrogance or pure martial skill.

"It's not all in the blade, Lucius."

*BAM*

/game

As for Loken coming back... I'm split on it. Loken's character served as the reader's eyes and ears in the 40k (or should I say 30k) universe and to bring him back in any other way just wouldn't be the same. To me the real question is: Do we still need that? 

Early in the Heresy story we sort of needed that outside perspective to help us to understand the origin of the Heresy, the gradual slip from one little step to the next. It truly is the story of how the road to Hell is paved with good intentions, as seen from the point of view of one who is apart from it and yet can see all. Now, we're over a dozen novels in. We see the story through the eyes of individuals who, in some cases, are themselves turned to Chaos through their own sense of pride, of being wronged, of loyalty... No longer do we need the outsider's perspective. That's what Loken provided and honestly, is no longer needed.

So to bring Loken back would be to change the character's role as he relates to us, the readers. Is that a good idea? I don't think so unless somewhere along the line the story requires that outside perspective again. Maybe it will, in which case Loken's return will be fine.


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