# What I think tau SHOULD have (for their new codex)



## stealthrat1 (Jul 28, 2009)

Let me start off by saying this is totally opinion based, so please do not bash my ideas. 

*FIRE WARRIORS: *
maybe a slight point increase for all these
Shoud be BS 4 base
able to take special weapons such as a burst cannon, fusion blaster etc.

A special rule that I think would be cool

Plasma volley:

As the squad is getting charged each model may make a normal shooting attack instead of fighting in CC (so they would be able to rapid fire as they are getting charged) These shots would happen as charges are declared but before models are moved. These shots would happen before blows are struck and would not count toward combat resolution. 

REASON: If gaunts get without number for free now and their points are cut in half I think that an ability like this for tau is justified. BS is necessary because tau just dont dish out the firepower that they used to and die to anything. ANYTHING

*CRISIS SUITS:*

BS 4 base

Plasma rifles should be 15 pts
missiles should be 10
The squad should have a 2+ save or have an invuln of 5+/4+

REASON:
First of all, they are elites for christ sake. BS 4 is not asking much of an elite unit of a shooting army. Plasma and missiles are over priced and the unit is much softer than it was in 4th ed. a 62pt model that is just not that hard to kill and only come in squads of 3. By making them BS 4 they can dish out enough plasma fire without increasing squad size. A 2+ save would make them more durable since they cannot hide behind terrain anymore. a 40pt terminator with a thunderhammer and a 2+/3+ save is much better than a 62pt model that misses half (more than half for me) of the time.

*DEVILFISH*

Should be base 50pts
Disruption pods should be 10-15pts
targetting array should be 10 pts

REASON: 
50 pt fish seems reasonable. Compare it to a chimera. A chimera has much better weapons, about the same armor, less access points, but a fish does not have mobile command vehicle and is not amphibious. It is a skimmer however. That is about equal. 50pts seems a little more reasonable for a fish.


THERE IS PROBABLY MORE TO COME. UNFORTUNATLY CLASS IS OVER.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

I agree with on raising the basic ballistic skill to 4. Given that Firewarriors are somewhat more costly than Guardsmen they deserve to be able to shoot better.


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## bishop5 (Jan 28, 2008)

Hmm, not sure I agree with that. I would just make Markerlights cheaper and assault weapons. I wouldn't go handing out more BS4 just like that.

If you're comparing fire warriors to gaunts or guardsmen (bad idea btw) then you need to take into account the S5 30" range standard weapon AND their 4+ save.

"50 pt fish seems reasonable. Compare it to a chimera. A chimera has much better weapons, about the same armor, less access points, but a fish does not have mobile command vehicle and is not amphibious. It is a skimmer however. That is about equal. 50pts seems a little more reasonable for a fish."

Devilfish should be cheaper, but not by that much. 
'about the same armour' is not 'the same armour' - that makes it more expensive for a start. Getting a 4+ cover save for a tiny amount of points... having the option of BS4, making it a fast vehicle... I could go on. I don't think they should be that cheap.

Anyway, Tau do need a boost, just don't go making them overpowered.


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## piemaster (Oct 9, 2009)

I too would like to see special weapons in fire warrior teams. May have to model them myself maybe... mmm...


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## Calamari (Feb 13, 2009)

stealthrat1 said:


> Shoud be BS 4 base


No, just no.

If you want to hit more use Markerlights thats what they are there for. I used to think like this but the Tau don't need it. I think tanks should have it but not Fire Warriors. 

Fire warriors should be cheaper though. I like the stand and shoot rule but I think it shouldn't be rapid fire, that would be a bit too much. As a Tau player you should always be worried about getting into combat, if you're putting out 24 S5 shots you're not realy gonna care that much lol.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Id like to see a sytem which replaces your bog standard Crisis Battlesuit as an Elites slot with different, specific Battlesuits, each designed for a different task, i.e. for Elites you`d have you Tank Hunting Battlesuit, Twin-Linked Fusion Blasters, shields, perhaps even Melta-Bombs. A Rapid Assault Battlesuit, with Burst Cannons, flamers, possiblley Close Combat weapons(?) for Fast Attack, and maybe another variation of the Crisis with longer ranged weapon options, so Missle Pods and Plasma Rifle`s.... It would reflect the Tau`s dependancy on Battlesuit technology, and show their nature of meeting a threat with specifically designed counter-measures


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## Underground Heretic (Aug 9, 2008)

This is going to sound like heresy and I will be eating my own words from other times, but I hope Tau get another year or two with our current codex. Yes, it is a 4th ed codex (insert obligatory DE, WH & DH are still 3rd comment), but it seems to be a darn well balanced codex.

Some of your points are understandable and ones I've echoed. Fire warriors and crisis suits at base BS 4. On average mine are because I spend 96 to make them so and get the ability strip cover and reduce leadership on pinning tests, if I ran pinning weapons, as well. I have to agree with Calamari on this point and add that pathfinders, against an experienced opponent should be brought in pairs or in minimum sized squads because they will draw the enemy's fire quickly, possibly being a lure to draw out any drop podding units.

On the note of Crisis suits I have to disagree completely with bobss, an unusual event, and hope for no new codex for a while because the crisis suit cannot improve in the new style of codex because it benefits from the armory system (RIP, you will be missed) and the diverse selection of weapons and support systems. Variants of crisis suits would be nice, but now you can throw together any three items and call it your own. It takes some of the personality away from the suits, though the diversification of FOC for suits would be appreciated. Stealth, The crisis suit, or most any unit can have a 4+ cover save if terrain and other units are used well. For suits, there aren't many weapons that ignore cover and are AP 3, the best thing they can do in CC is die _quickly_, and if you want you can get a 4+ invulnerable save, but it comes at a cost.

Piemaster, while a nice idea, integrated special weapons would go against the fluff and could take away from the single use of fire warriors. As of now they have only one goal, but if supported well, they are peerless in that goal.

Tau, as it stands now, are a combined arms army representing a society where different castes and species work together in their own way to further the whole. The army works similarly on the tabletop. United we shall prosper, divided we shall perish; so sayeth the Aun, so sayeth we all.

For the Tau'va!


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

I agree with Underground about the other armies pressing need of an update, such armies like Dark Eldar, Necrons and the Inqusition [In that order] need one more desperately that Tau, I just wanted maybe abit more depth to the army. It needs more background and depth. But like I said before though, I still like the diversity of suits. The standard battlesuit can be outfitted in a variety of numerous ways, to perfrom an variety of tasks, Id just like abit more specialisation, like there is in the 40k rulebook.... ( the background abit the Sept Bor`kan invading an Imperial Death/Jungle world is very good )

Oh and 1000 POSTS FUCK YEAH!!!


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## stealthrat1 (Jul 28, 2009)

bishop5 said:


> Hmm, not sure I agree with that. I would just make Markerlights cheaper and assault weapons. I wouldn't go handing out more BS4 just like that.
> 
> If you're comparing fire warriors to gaunts or guardsmen (bad idea btw) then you need to take into account the S5 30" range standard weapon AND their 4+ save.
> 
> ...


That is a good idea! Markerlights should be cheaper and be assault. I do not think that comparing a fire warrior to a gaunt is a bad idea because proportionally they are the same. fire warrior is 10 pts and a gaunt it 5. But if gaunts get without number for free that makes a 10 pt fire warrior seem a little less proportional. I think that my plasma volley idea is overpowered for a 10 pt model with BS 4. I did also say for a slight points increase.

I listed a points cost how much disruption pods should cost and how much targetting array should cost. So a fish with those upgrades now would be about 100+pts instead of 120. I THINK that is reasonable, considering they really never did anything beside stay alive all game anyway.



Calamari said:


> No, just no.
> 
> If you want to hit more use Markerlights thats what they are there for. I used to think like this but the Tau don't need it. I think tanks should have it but not Fire Warriors.
> 
> Fire warriors should be cheaper though. I like the stand and shoot rule but I think it shouldn't be rapid fire, that would be a bit too much. As a Tau player you should always be worried about getting into combat, if you're putting out 24 S5 shots you're not realy gonna care that much lol.


Yeah I was thinking that maybe it should just be a single shot from each member of the squad. a rapid might be a bit too much. I used to use markerlights but for a squad of 8 without bonded is like 176 pts. Its one of the only things outside a transport turn one so gets shot at and dies. If I start them in their transport (BTW this transport has no upgrades, so sucks) I gotta get out sometime in order to be useful. Once I get out I cant shoot lights, so I sit their for my turn and THEN I get shot at. They are hard to use. If markerlights were assault then they would be awesome.



Underground Heretic said:


> This is going to sound like heresy and I will be eating my own words from other times, but I hope Tau get another year or two with our current codex. Yes, it is a 4th ed codex (insert obligatory DE, WH & DH are still 3rd comment), but it seems to be a darn well balanced codex.
> 
> Some of your points are understandable and ones I've echoed. Fire warriors and crisis suits at base BS 4. On average mine are because I spend 96 to make them so and get the ability strip cover and reduce leadership on pinning tests, if I ran pinning weapons, as well. I have to agree with Calamari on this point and add that pathfinders, against an experienced opponent should be brought in pairs or in minimum sized squads because they will draw the enemy's fire quickly, possibly being a lure to draw out any drop podding units.
> 
> ...


All I ever said was "for their new codex" I never said it should be the next one. DE, DH, WH, need to be updated badly, especially DS. THEY SUCK!


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## Matthew (Dec 7, 2009)

How often do new codexs come out anyways?


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## Kale Hellas (Aug 26, 2009)

well it depends on what race
space marines= 2-3 years
i.g, tyranids= 3-5 years
everything else seems to just be pointless because games workshop ignores them


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## projectda (May 12, 2008)

i say.
point drops are needed for tau. free defensive nades. add XV9s and other IA stuff. make markerlights networked, maybe some more things that ignore cover. make farsight allow xv8s and xv15s as troops, while dropping his 0-1 for 90% of the army. allow tau to ally IG, but not allowing foot troops to use s8 or higher weapons (to follow the fluff a bit). allow tau to use s5 weapons as defensive.


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

Jesus Kale bitterness or what
They arent out in 2010 and i doubt considering de still wont be done next year they will get done by 2011.

I'm very happy with the current codex and though yeah it does take a beating from the new lists its a challenging and competitive codex.

This is all in my opinion but personally if you raise the tau to bs4 the markerlight becomes redundant and the tau warriors become overpowered, marines that can do combat which they arent.

The point of the tau is we have great weaponry but due to our low average life expectancy we are not experienced at using them, unlike a marine that has 16 years to hone his art before becoming a full battle brother.

I like the idea of a stand and shoot reaction to being charged which would really help the tau out whilst free photon grenades would probably make them more than worth their points cost or the ability to take a charge break from combat on a certain roll and regroup to fire again.

Secondly the crisis suit can become bs4 for a fairly small points cost and can be armed with some of the best weapons in the game as to your design. I agree with underground that the current armoury system is a fantastic method that I would hate to loose.

however I would like to see the ability to make some specialty suits ie with the tank hunter special rule whilst I would like a targetting array to be available to every model (without taking up a support slot) or at least hardwireable and we could do with a cheaper ap3 weapon as the plasma rifle is horridly overpriced for the current climate.

I would like to see marker drones reduced in price as currently they are ridiculously overpriced to take with stealth suits. i can get 8 for 6 points more than 3 marker drones with stealth suits. Ridiculous to me.

Stealth suits are a strange entity in general, able to appear from nowhere and just blast the crap out of marines, they need the ability to take an ap3 gun(obviously for a fair few points) to make them compete with crisis suits whilst I would love to see them able to move by deepstrike. Sounds odd but it would be a huge now you see me now you dont sort of thing that I think though it would make them more expensive would make them compete for elites slots with crisis suits

Vespids and kroot need to be more viable, kroot by getting some power weapons as they just fall apart against high armour save enemies whilst vespids need to be cheaper. They have a brilliant gun but are just so easy to take down that they arent worth the points. Maybe instead of fleet an invulnerable save or automatic cover save making them slightly more lasting.

Most importantly the broadside needs to be able to return to its niche in tau armies. With our new dependance upon mobility the broadside is too slow and fast becoming extinct with 3 hammerheads taking its place. Now, where transports used to fall like flies are 3 railguns struggle to annihilate enemy tanks and transports simultaneously and thus the broadside needs something to make them a little more mobile maybe an integrated ASS whilst the sky ray needs a real boost to make it compete with the hammerhead.

Oh and gue'vsa would be nice as project da said

The things above are all just things I would like to see but I appreciate that they would probably overpower the tau. However I'm still very happy with my tau codex but even a minion of the greater good can dream


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## Kale Hellas (Aug 26, 2009)

just pointing out, i was saying that i think gw thinks of them as pointless i wasn't saying they are pointless


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Pulse carbines MUST be cheaper than the rifle. It is shittier, therefore it is cheaper.
Kroot SHOULD have assault 1 weapons. Maybe just if they are in jungle/ forest.
Hammerhead submunitions SHOULDN'T scatter. (It's basically a big ass shotgun)
Vespid SHOULDN'T suck ass. Take away 1 I and add 1 shot to their gun. Now they're WORTH all those points.
Rail Rifles SHOULD be cheaper, unless you're able to field 8 in 1 squad of pathies.
Broadshides MUST be completely plastic.
Stealth Suits MUST be avilable as troops/ fast attack instead of elite in a *doctrined* list.


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## maomolin (May 4, 2008)

#1 free defensive gernades
#2 stand and shoot
(for all who would oppose this for whatever reason, IG... nuff said.... and if you want for fluff reasons, why on Terra should a generic shmoe from planet x be capable of hitting vehicles and monstrous creatures, or to drop down to the ground and get up faster / better than a trained marine, let alone a space marine)
#3 stealth suits as a fast, makes sense. Maybe allow for an elite rail-gun style squad (like pathfinders but make it a standard loadout, 5-10 strong, properly priced)
#4 redo the markerlight system from scratch. Allow for one model per unit to carry it, Assault 1, allow for cover saves (just makes sense if you think about it, but deny cover saves of the squad altogether if they fail it). Gives the parent unit +1 BS and to fire seeker missiles (maybe allow pathfinders to carry a 1-shot seeker missile with no other upgrade options and keep their standard loadout as an option to the railgun). One model per unit may carry the markerlight.
#5 broadsides do not need to be more mobile, but they do need to slaughter vehicles, something that ignores cover and retains str 10 ap 1, twin-linked would be nice
#6 vespid weapons up to assault 2
#7 power weapons for kroot, assault 1 18" weapons, and/or a points drop.

This comes from a former Tau player. I like the army as a whole, I like playing against it, but these kinds of changes would be the slight upping it need to be a tournament viable army.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

A useful Commander Farsight. I made a nice conversion and everything, and I never get to use it.


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

stealthrat1 said:


> Let me start off by saying this is totally opinion based, so please do not bash my ideas.


Correction: This is totally biased, I want an OP'd codex, please don't challenge my ridiculous points 



stealthrat1 said:


> *FIRE WARRIORS: *
> maybe a slight point increase for all these
> Shoud be BS 4 base
> able to take special weapons such as a burst cannon, fusion blaster etc.
> ...


So we should bring in an ability to counter your only real weakness? You have a 4+ save currently and a 30" range S5 weapon. Your effectiveness is on par with space marines who are more points per model. You completely forget that your standard weapon is S5, which is a huge difference and makes a highly powerful shooting force. Giving you a rapid fire volley when assaulted would just make your entire faction massively OP (especially when you compare it to the BS4 you want). If gaunts charged you, against 10 warriors, you'd get 20 shots, killing about 9-12 of the luckless gaunts and that's just when they charge you, littleown the shooting you're giving them all game, if you aren't getting shots, try better positioning.



stealthrat1 said:


> *CRISIS SUITS:*
> 
> BS 4 base
> 
> ...





stealthrat1 said:


> *DEVILFISH*
> 
> Should be base 50pts
> Disruption pods should be 10-15pts
> ...


About the same, isn't the same. Your vehicle is fast, a skimmer and the other points people mentioned, you can't compare apples to apricots. I think your desire for more power for the Tau is driven by a desire to compensate for a lack of skill, many Tau players wipe the board quite easily, I'm sorry that some of the enemy actually makes it to your lines occasionally.


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

maomolin said:


> #1 free defensive gernades
> #2 stand and shoot
> (for all who would oppose this for whatever reason, IG... nuff said.... and if you want for fluff reasons, why on Terra should a generic shmoe from planet x be capable of hitting vehicles and monstrous creatures, or to drop down to the ground and get up faster / better than a trained marine, let alone a space marine)
> #3 stealth suits as a fast, makes sense. Maybe allow for an elite rail-gun style squad (like pathfinders but make it a standard loadout, 5-10 strong, properly priced)
> ...


Ridiculous, nuff said.


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## JackalMJ (Nov 12, 2009)

And to think all this time I thought Firewarriors where CHEAP points wise. Necrons are 18 points, str 4 gun, toughness 4 and well be back, +3 armor save (they suck in melee). Marines, Str 4 gun, toughness 4, Str 4, +3 armor and good melee, 16 points.

Fire warrior, crap melee, str 5 gun, toughness 3, BS 3, +4 armor. 10 points. You've got 3 warriors for 2 less points than 2 marines. 6 warriors for 4 marines, 12 warriors for 8 marines. The lack of BS skill is countered for a 30 inch str 5 gun which wounds Eldar/Guard etc on a +2.

Your plasma volley is just to much. Clearly Firewarriors are ment to shoot the crap out of things but fold in melee. So lets take some Howling Banshees shell we? These tarts make terminaters quiver what with high initative, power weapons, high weapon skill and a massive number of attacks off the guard. How would they fare against a basic Firewarrior squad?

They charge! You get 24 shots which with BS 3 only 12 hit. Its +2 to Wound though so we can assume 10 wounds. And Banshees have I think +4 save so thats 5 deaths. 

Outcome? An Elite close combat unit just took 50% losses charging the very unit they should be strongest against. If it was a 5 man Banshee sqaud (or a 10 man squad that had suffered losses) you'd wipe them out on the charge. Its to much. 

Putting special weapons in Fire Warrior teams isnt good either, it makes them marines and take away from Crisis Suits who are suppose to be the heavy weapons carriers. Changes maybe needed, but these arnt the way to go.


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

JackalMJ said:


> And to think all this time I thought Firewarriors where CHEAP points wise. Necrons are 18 points, str 4 gun, toughness 4 and well be back, +3 armor save (they suck in melee). Marines, Str 4 gun, toughness 4, Str 4, +3 armor and good melee, 16 points.
> 
> Fire warrior, crap melee, str 5 gun, toughness 3, BS 3, +4 armor. 10 points. You've got 3 warriors for 2 less points than 2 marines. 6 warriors for 4 marines, 12 warriors for 8 marines. The lack of BS skill is countered for a 30 inch str 5 gun which wounds Eldar/Guard etc on a +2.
> 
> ...


QTF.......


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Stand and shoot wouldn't work for all the points outlined above. The entire point of Fire Warriors is that they fall apart like toilet paper getting flushed as soon as anything reaches combat with them. GW will also never do it because it would confuse the mechanics too much, shooting in the assault phase... wtf. This isn't Fantasy.

And sorry, what, you want to make Railguns BETTER? Are you completely stupid? They already penetrate all transports that aren't a land raider on 2s/3s and kill them on 3s/4s, oh and you're shooting at BS4 or 5... GG.

Here's a suggestion, instead of buffing Broadsides, nerf Hammerheads. A permanent 4+ cover save against anything but Meltas despite being right in the open? AV13 on the front? Fast vehicle? No wonder anyone who wants to win takes 3.

Try fixing the things that are actually useless: Vespids, Stealthsuits and every single one of your special characters. Fire Warriors, Crisis Suits and Markerlights are fine.


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## JackalMJ (Nov 12, 2009)

I'll show a little of my own ignorance here. How do Hammerheads get +4 cover saves in the open. Must be some mechanic i'm forgetting about... although my Tau codex is the out dated one so...


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Disruption pods. You get a 4+ save against every shooting attack that doesn't originate within 12". For, um, let's see.... 5 points. Uh-huh.


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## Fire Lord (Feb 15, 2009)

As an old Tau player, I think the Tau need a bit of love. Plasma rifles seem a bit too pricey, considering their one of the only 'real' good guns for suits. I love the XV-9 forge world is producing. It fits the mobile warfare perfect. Vespid could use a varying frequency shot, like noise marines. Maybe be 18" Assault 2 and Heavy 1 Blast. Ethereal, body armor? Need I say more. Check out the cover of Tau Empire. An ethereal wearing body armor, what? Looks cool anyhow.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

Maybe a battle(guardian)suit for ethereals. Could help to make them worthwhile.


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## General. Gray Wolf (Apr 19, 2009)

I agree with the cheaper devil fish. Compared to other transport vehicles there to expensive. I also agree with the crisis suits being a BS4, strongly. After all the ARE an elite choice in a shooty army. 

I dont agree with the "Plasma volly" rule at all though. It's not really fair and does'nt make much sence. Imagine horma gaunts charging into close combat where they SHOULD tear the fire warriors apart but then come up against 24 pulse rifle rounds!?That would tear them to pieces before they could even lay a claw on them!


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Sethis said:


> Stand and shoot wouldn't work for all the points outlined above. The entire point of Fire Warriors is that they fall apart like toilet paper getting flushed as soon as anything reaches combat with them. GW will also never do it because it would confuse the mechanics too much, shooting in the assault phase... wtf. This isn't Fantasy.
> 
> And sorry, what, you want to make Railguns BETTER? Are you completely stupid? They already penetrate all transports that aren't a land raider on 2s/3s and kill them on 3s/4s, oh and you're shooting at BS4 or 5... GG.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of your points (even though it's unconstructive bashing)

but

Nerfing *Hammerheads* should go no further than to the extent of making disruption pods more expensive. AV 13 is good where it is, I even propose making the Devilfish AV 13 as well, makes more sense. But that would make it more costy than it's use facilitates. You seem to forget that Tau are very techy, disruption pods make sense but I agree they are silly at 5 pts. Maybe 15 is better for Hammerheads, 5 for Devilfish.

Correction: *Hammerheads* aren't fast vehicles, they just shoot as if they were, big difference. Had to get that off my chest as alot of non-Tau players are using this misconception to bash their balance.

*Broadsides* do not need a buff per se, but I strongly think they should have another hardpoint for non-weapon systems. Now you're stuck choosing ONE of either target lock, multi-tracker, shield drones etc. and whatever you DON'T take is going to come back and bite your ass in any game. *Broadsides* should have the stabilization system taken away from them, it was a mistake giving them this option.

*Crisis suits* are not fine. They are elites in a shooty army. BS 4 is a minimum, and they should NOT be insta-killed by Missiles. They should retain their toughness of 4, but it should count as 5 for the purpouses of instant death. (Not suggesting they get eternal warrior, just saying a _missile. should. not. kill. them. outright._)

And yes, I think everyone can agree *Vespid* needs something done with. Removing an initiative point and adding a shot to their weapon (not adding range) would balance their currently _ridiculous_ point cost.

*Stealth suits* are super awesome models with great background fluff and should not be sitting on everyone's shelves collecting dust. Here's what can be done with them:
-The Shas'Vre upgrade is pointless for an A and an I. Up the LD instead!
-They should be able to take a targeting array without using their hardpoint.
-Option to use as Fast Attack/ Troops by limiting the rest of your army choices (doctrine)
-They are too easy to spot, just night fighting rules aren't helping them at all.
-30 points base? Really? 2 space marines per stealth suit? Who wrote this crap?

All in all I feel the XV25 rules are something the designers must have been brainstorming about while drunk at the GW christmas party and just tossed whatever was scribbled on the napkin in the codex the hangover thereafter.

And now, they are probably done scribbling down XV22 squad rules onto yet another napkin....

Other improvements that Tau need:

- Cheaper rail rifles. (Although not for Sniper drones)
- Cheaper Devilfish (although it's safe to say it's probably already being done)
- Flesh out the special characters, bring back Aun'Shi and Anghkor Prok.
- Cheaper Pulse Crapines (sorry, _carbines_)
- Sky Ray should at the very minimum be brought down to half points. Who uses that thing?
- Kroot 1 point cheaper with infiltrationless option, Assault 1 rifles, make plastic hounds /shapers kthx.
- Drone squads up to 10 or 12 models. Bring back the half LD at 50% strength rule and make them 2 points less.


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## Alex (Jan 19, 2008)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> *Crisis suits* are not fine. They are elites in a shooty army. BS 4 is a minimum, and they should NOT be insta-killed by Missiles. They should retain their toughness of 4, but it should count as 5 for the purpouses of instant death. (Not suggesting they get eternal warrior, just saying a _missile. should. not. kill. them. outright._)
> 
> 
> > This is something I've been infuriated with for a long time, which is why I'm happy they've made the new new Forge World fast attacks . They may only be experimental rules at the moment but I've used them in games and their toughness of five made them so much more durable.
> ...


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

I disagree that they should be immune to missiles and instant death. There are plenty of T4 things with T5 upgrades who suffer from this fate. Bikes being the most common but there's plenty more out there. Bs4 does sound reasonable, but fluff wise GW seems to take the stance that having such a short lifespan and also the fact they aren't a warlike race like many, making them bs3 (that they rely on technology rather than skill to win).


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

lol when my 200 point Shas'O gets all his wounds taken from him by a single ork rokkit I want to strangle the nearest person. It's incredibly lame. At the very very least, commanders and squad leaders must have an optional upgrade to give eternal warrior. Even if it's special issue.


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> lol when my 200 point Shas'O gets all his wounds taken from him by a single ork rokkit I want to strangle the nearest person. It's incredibly lame. At the very very least, commanders and squad leaders must have an optional upgrade to give eternal warrior. Even if it's special issue.


Most characters die from a single S8 rocket, that's part of the game. Ahirman my special character at around 240 points dies from a single rocket...What will be the point of instant death if all characters are immune? Eternal warrior is already waaaay too prevalent in the current edition, and fyi the ork rokkits have to target vehicles if visible .

"my shit died" is hardly justification for eternal warrior.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

NagashKhemmler said:


> Most characters die from a single S8 rocket, that's part of the game. Ahirman my special character at around 240 points dies from a single rocket...What will be the point of instant death if all characters are immune? Eternal warrior is already waaaay too prevalent in the current edition, and fyi the ork rokkits have to target vehicles if visible .
> 
> "my shit died" is hardly justification for eternal warrior.


I agree, S8 should be able to kill Batlle suits. Oh and there are these great little tau inventions called shield drones I'd strongly suggest you invest in, they work wonders.

I've got one. A battlesuit pilot only occupies the torso of the suit. The limbs and head are just mechanical. Wouldn't it make sense to give BSs feel no pain? The pilot can only be injured if the torso is hit, shot to the limbs don't 'hurt' the pilot. Is this already represented by the extra wound? Thoughts?


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

I would like to see battlesuits getting FNP for free, crisis and broadside suits anyway (XV2?). The stealth suits (XV8?) are pretty much just power armor and probably wouldn't need it. As is, a full crisis team with 2 shield drones is about as resilient as 8 marines to small-arms fire and WAY more expensive. Hitting them with anti-tank weapons would still be devastating though.


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## NagashKhemmler (Apr 28, 2009)

Stop the press, there's a counter to a unit which is effective...omg. I hardly think a heavy weapons ability to kill a single model by itself is overpowered. A heavy weapon will also kill any other T4 character with the exception of a few with eternal warrior.


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## JackalMJ (Nov 12, 2009)

Feel no Pain on suits isnt right. I understand the argument of "my pilot is in the torso so the head getting blown off doesnt hurt him". That said how do you think getting the head blown off will hurt the Battle Suit? The pilot might live but a missle blasting both legs off the suit is going to take it out of the game, even if it didnt hurt the pilot.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

I get what your saying, death of the battlesuit could just represent a disabled suit. A missile blasting off both legs sounds more like an instant death weapon (either kills the pilot or heavily damages the suit) which FnP wouldn't affect. T4, 3+Sv, W2, feel no pain, is still vulnerable to krak missiles lascannons and other heavy weapons that cause major damage, but against small arms fire it's much more resilient.

Say a guardsman gets shot in the kneecap, he'd most likely roll around in agony and be out of the fight. A shot to the suit's knee however will not cripple it through pain. The suit's leg would most likely be disabled which would slow it down (though it does have a jetpack) but it can still operate in combat. In the older codices bionics would give you a 6+ FnP save, I think a giant suit would be similar enough to that to warrant a 4+ FnP save. That's just me opinion though.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

I think XV8's need a BS of 4, cheaper plasma rifle points I know I use them every now and then but I prefer taking a missle pod over them. I think not cutting there points but say giving them a burst cannon and perhaps another piece of wargear maybe shields as standard and maybe bonding knifes for leaders - and making the leaders of a tau units worth taking I don't want a higher initiative or 1 extra attack for my leader if my army will only strike before terminators with power fists I want extra LD and BS for my leaders.

Also making photon (the cheaper) grenade standard gear with the fire warriors etc that can take them. 

I think 70pts for a devilfish isnt too much to ask for or at least making it cheaper for pathfinder squads as yes they have marker lights but they are heavy weapons and cant move and shoot them but they have to take a devilfish which sometimes I dont want to do.

Vespids need redoing or throwing, kroot need a point reduction and armour 6+ as standard and I agree hammerheads should have disruption pods at higher points cost.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Photon grenades should NOT be forced on players. It might be 0 pts, but not standard. All photon grenades do is drag out the combat, which is hurtful to the Tau player. Fire Warriors should fold in CQC in the first round of combat, so that other units may fire upon the assaulters again.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> I agree with most of your points (even though it's unconstructive bashing)


I take issue with being called unconstructive. I called people calling for Railgun upgrades idiots, because they are. The Railgun is the single most feared gun in the game, for good reason. I then suggested that some units in your army list are more deserving of attention, while saying that others were fine (in my opinion). I don't feel comfortable suggesting exact changes or points values, because I've never played Tau so I don't know what effective changes to make. That's as constructive as I can get.



MetalHandkerchief said:


> Nerfing *Hammerheads* should go no further than to the extent of making disruption pods more expensive. AV 13 is good where it is, I even propose making the Devilfish AV 13 as well, makes more sense. But that would make it more costy than it's use facilitates. You seem to forget that Tau are very techy, disruption pods make sense but I agree they are silly at 5 pts. Maybe 15 is better for Hammerheads, 5 for Devilfish.


I agree AV13 on the Hammerhead is fine, it's a big part of what makes it good. Needing S7 just to glance puts it ahead of Falcons and Fire Prisms (similar role tanks).

Making the Devilfish AV13 would fly in the face of what it's supposed to be: a mid-sized APC. Only Line Battle Tanks have AV13. It would also (as you said) make it prohibitively expensive.

15 points? Try 30. I'm not sure you understand just how good this ability is. Imperial Tanks get this ability for 1 turn only, and forfeit shooting to do it (despite that, it's a very good ability). Eldar pay 35 points per model to roll 2 dice on the chart and pick the lowest roll. I would confidently say ignoring 50% of ALL penetrating or glancing hits is at least on par with that. Players should be forced to make a decision whether to take it or not. As it stands, it's an auto-equip upgrade that may as well be incorporated into the tank itself. No-one is going to skip it for 5 points (or even 15).



MetalHandkerchief said:


> Correction: *Hammerheads* aren't fast vehicles, they just shoot as if they were, big difference. Had to get that off my chest as alot of non-Tau players are using this misconception to bash their balance.


You pay 10 points for a Multi-tracker and you're fast. If I could pay 10 points to make my Predators Fast, you can bet your collection that I would do it without blinking. Moving 6-12" while firing some/all weapons is very good. Not imbalanced, just very good.



MetalHandkerchief said:


> *Broadsides* do not need a buff per se, but I strongly think they should have another hardpoint for non-weapon systems. Now you're stuck choosing ONE of either target lock, multi-tracker, shield drones etc. and whatever you DON'T take is going to come back and bite your ass in any game. *Broadsides* should have the stabilization system taken away from them, it was a mistake giving them this option.


The rest of your Heavy support slots need to be made comparable to the Hammerhead, because as it stands, they are miles behind it in terms of Utility, Survivability and Mobility. You can do this by either nerfing the Hammerhead or buffing the rest of your choices. It'll have the same effect either way.



MetalHandkerchief said:


> *Crisis suits* are not fine. They are elites in a shooty army. BS 4 is a minimum, and they should NOT be insta-killed by Missiles. They should retain their toughness of 4, but it should count as 5 for the purpouses of instant death. (Not suggesting they get eternal warrior, just saying a _missile. should. not. kill. them. outright._)


I think for the "Iconic Tau Unit", Crisis Suits are a little underpowered. They're still playable, but they're not something that anyone wants to take more than 1 squad of (plus the HQ). I think rather than making them harder, just dropping the points value a little bit would work fine. They are not quite as hard as a Terminator, but harder than a Tac Marine. I think that comes across well in their profiles as it stands, but paying ~50 points per model is a bit OTT for what they do at the moment.

I think the Stealthsuits suffer from a what-am-I-doing-with-my-life crisis. They are geared to shoot down infantry, but have to get within 18" to do so (i.e. within the ideal kill zone of whatever they are attacking). I would suggest "Long Barrelled" Burst Cannon, with a 24" range and maybe Assault 2 instead of 3. That would make them an excellent "Harasser" unit that could be fairly safe from return fire unless the enemy specifically dispatches a unit to deal with them. In a pinch they could even go after light vehicles, or try to Deep Strike behind the enemy Support tanks and empty lots of S5 shots into Rear 10 AV.



MetalHandkerchief said:


> Other improvements that Tau need:
> 
> - Cheaper rail rifles. (Although not for Sniper drones)
> - Cheaper Devilfish (although it's safe to say it's probably already being done)
> ...


I'm unsure why you want cheaper Rail Rifles. Pathfinders are designed to be Markerlight Spam units, and are the only other people to even be able to use Rail Rifles.

If by "Flesh out" you mean "Make playable" then I agree with the Special Characters part!

Again, the problem isn't with the Skyray, it's that the Hammerhead is better. That's all.

You might strike lucky and get a new Kroot set with parts for 1x Shaper, 9x Kroot and 3x Hounds. Maybe.


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