# The Black Crusades



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

People often tend to down-play the Black Crusades, often using them as evidence for the Chaos Marines' failure! :ireful2: 
This thread will focus on discussing the Black Crusades, their motives and sucesses :good: (This Post contains Spoilers for 'Mechanicum'!)

Firstly here is a link to the list of Black Crusades and the known occurances of the Crusades. 

The closest one the crusades ever got to Terra was the 4th. El'Phanor was razed aswell as its sector. (The best galaxy map i can find to illustrate this point is here. El'Phanor is clearly well within the Segmentum Solar.)

Now i think everyone can appriciate the massive task/obstacle that faces the Warmaster. Any force wishing to safely leave the Great Eye has to go through the Cadian gate, and any decent sized force has to go through the Planet Cadia (some small forces have been known to sneak past!) - Cadia is literally a fortress world with huge amounts of Imperial Navy battleships nearby - Cadia can also easily call on the support of several Space Marine Chapters who were created with the sole intention of guarding the Cadian gate/watching over the Eye of Terror.

Abaddon not only has a huge task in leading the assault but also in uniting the very fractured nature of the Chaos legions/renegades. 

Each Black Crusade has pushed the Imperium closer to Breaking point. the 13th Black Crusade has resulted in the largest mobilisation of Imperial forces since the Horus Heresy itself! This in itself says a lot, more imperial forces were mobilised than any other conflict since the heresy! - The 3 wars for Armageddon, Tyranid invasions, Countless Ork Waaaghs!, etc. 

The 13th Black Crusade also resulted in the Imperium essentially losing the planet Cadia, Chaos is occupying the majority of the planets surface. However the Chaos Forces are essentially blockaded on Cadia due to the Imperium still controlling the Cadian orbit, but none-the-less the planet has fallen. 

How long is it until the 14th Black Crusade? With Cadia fallen, the path is essentially open to Terra itself - No other truley defensable location lies between the Eye and Terra. The forces of Chaos then, if able to break out of the Cadian gate would have a major effect on the Imperium - the high lords would panic and likely withdraw from several parts of the galaxy in order to better defend Terra, for without Terra and the Emperor the Imperium is no more. Countless Imperial Guard regiments and Space Marine Chapters would be recalled in order to stop the Warmaster - the other races of the galaxy would capitalise on this turn of events and would also push in on Imperial Space. This alone reveals the true threat posed by the Warmaster now that Cadia is occupied.

We also have to remember the vision which the Warmaster recieved from a daemon oracle, as noted in the Necrons Codex - confirming he now knows about the Void Dragon being on Mars. 

"Abaddon intends to eventually take the war to Terra itself, taking advantage of some type of conflict involving the Adepts of Mars and a big secret yet unrevealed." That is the quote from the time of the Eye of Terror campaign (before 'Mechanicum' was released - which has now confirmed the Void Dragon is on Mars) - Abaddon can easily take advantage of the Void Dragon being on Mars and lead the last Black Crusade finally crushing Terra itself and the Emperor's corpse. :good:

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What are your thoughts on the Black Crusades? 

How much longer can the Imperium truley hold out? it is the 'Time of Ending' after all!


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

The Imperium is done for! Death to the false emperor!!!!


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## theoncomingstorm (Jun 24, 2008)

we will deffend holy terra with every last ounce of strength and every drop of blood, if we blood angels fall we will have taken many more of the heratics with us.

but back to ur topic, erm give it some time because the imperial navy is a sizeable force, and give the cadian deffence some credit, planets down but the fleets in orbit will atleast dint whatever comes out of the eye. And then who knows isnt there a story out there that the emperor will one day be reborn? maybe he will be reborn at this time of crisis and unite the imperium like it has never been seen before


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

theoncomingstorm said:


> we will deffend holy terra with every last ounce of strength and every drop of blood, if we blood angels fall we will have taken many more of the heratics with us.
> 
> but back to ur topic, erm give it some time because the imperial navy is a sizeable force, and give the cadian deffence some credit, planets down but the fleets in orbit will atleast dint whatever comes out of the eye. And then who knows isnt there a story out there that the emperor will one day be reborn? maybe he will be reborn at this time of crisis and unite the imperium like it has never been seen before


Logically the Emperors ability to reincarnate he inherited from the shamans who created him. The Shamans once they died; their souls were able to float around in the warp until a new body was found, this was only possible because the warp at that time was a calm and tranquil place prior to the Warp Gods gaining consciousness. 

The Emperor technically could reincarnate if the warp was calm/peaceful as it used to be. However now it is like a raging storm, pure chaotic, his soul would be lost to Chaos. 

The remains of his physical self (his withered corpse on the throne) is currently acting as an anchor/prison for his soul, and whilst his soul endures (because his Corpse remains) so does his mighty warp presence. It is his soul/warp presence which is able to hold the Imperium together. Powering the Astronomican, guiding his people through the Emperors tarot, and most importantly preventing Chaos' worse temptations/perils from effecting humanity. 

The Emperor himself knew he would never rise again from the Golden Throne - Quote from the Horus Heresy: Collected Visions:

"The Emperor, still frail and weak, spoke, 'Poor, brave Malcador the Hero. He reserved a fragment of his strength for me. It gives me a little time to pass final orders to you all. If you do as i ask then i shall not wholly die, my spirit at least will survive. My injuries are severe, more so than i had hoped but less so than i feared. My psychic powers will return to me in time but my body will never heal. I shall never walk amongst you again. I am now bound to this machine for all time. My faithful bodyguard and attendants know what is required. You must do as they request!"

Even the Cabal prophecy from the HH book: Legion, states that if the Emperor prevailed over Horus, Chaos would win and the realm of chaos would engulf the galaxy, its simply a matter of time.

The Warp Gods engineered the Horus Heresy to smite down the Emperor who was a threat to them, it worked. The Emperor is no longer a threat to Chaos, if he was the Chaos Gods would have destroyed him by now.

And heres a nice quote to end :good:

"Understand, Mortals, that every one of you, each of your so-called champions, is just a piece in the Great Game of our Masters."


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

you also have to remember that over 10,000 years there has only been 13 black crusades, thats roughly 770 years between each crusade. In that time defences can be re-build, forces recruited and transfered. I do not think that the High Lords of Terra are going to sit around twiddling there thumbs while Ezekyle masses up his next shindig. The Imperium is noted for the amount of time it takes to swing its hammer, 770 years is long enough i reckon. I believe that the High Lords will also create several new chapters PURELY for the defence of Cadia and the surrounding systems to replace those that were lost in the fighting. The 14th Black Crusade will deffo be interesting turn of events, but i dout that Chaos will be able to just stroll in.


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## theoncomingstorm (Jun 24, 2008)

maybe its the emperors massive psycick presence that is keeping chaos at bay enough for the imperium to have a fighting chance? and if the warp was calm for shamans who created a being who is mega powerful like the emperor may he doesnt need the warp to be calm, what if when the emperor dies he calms the warp and chaos will be deminished and then he can return the to mortal realm and begin anew with the unification of the galaxy and the purging of the xenos


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

theoncomingstorm said:


> maybe its the emperors massive psycick presence that is keeping chaos at bay enough for the imperium to have a fighting chance? and if the warp was calm for shamans who created a being who is mega powerful like the emperor may he doesnt need the warp to be calm, what if when the emperor dies he calms the warp and chaos will be deminished and then he can return the to mortal realm and begin anew with the unification of the galaxy and the purging of the xenos


The Emperor isn't all that..! Hes an amazingly powerful Psyker but i think it ends there. Hes not a god (however much he wants to be one!) - even a psyker of his power couldn't calm the warp. In order to calm the warp you would have to destroy most if not all mortals, and with the mortals the Warp Gods would be destroyed (as they require mortals emotions/thoughts/actions to sustain them)

Whilst mortals exist, so will Chaos


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## theoncomingstorm (Jun 24, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> (however much he wants to be one


as i recall the emperor actully set somthing down that he definetly ISNT a god or trying to prolaim himself one


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

theoncomingstorm said:


> as i recall the emperor actully set somthing down that he definetly ISNT a god or trying to prolaim himself one


Yes i was joking! he himself proclaimed the Imperial Truth trying to free humanity from the shackles of religion. But in the end he for all intents and purposes has become a god, worshipped by thousands of trillions.


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

ironic isnt it


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Micklez said:


> ironic isnt it


Indeed it is 



Micklez said:


> The 14th Black Crusade will deffo be interesting turn of events, but i dout that Chaos will be able to just stroll in.


No they wont  but it will be by taking advantage of a seperate occurence that the Warmaster will crush Terra. 

Eg. 

- The Void Dragon being on Mars
- More incoming Hive Fleets 
- Continuing Ork Waaaghs
- Tau and Eldar still being annoying!
Etc Etc

It is all slowly grinding down the Imperium.

Chaos itself wont be able to conquer the Imperium but with the indirect help of another faction they are fully capable of doing so :good:


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> - The Void Dragon being on Mars
> - More incoming Hive Fleets
> - Continuing Ork Waaaghs
> - Tau and Eldar still being annoying!


What makes you think these will happen in time for the 14th Black Crusade or that they will all happen together??? I can not see the Eldar weakening the Imperium so that Chaos can destroy it, it would make things harder for them. The Void Dragons been asleep on Mars for melleniums, why would he just wake up now. The Hive Fleets are too unpredictable to be used as an effective tool for Chaos, they would more likely re-act to them then influence them. The Orks i can see as a good tool for the BC's, alhough i can see them betraying at the most important moment :laugh:


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

Hello Child! Good to discuss with you again! :biggrin:

Alright, so first off, the Black Crusades are not a symbol of Chaos failure. The Cadian gate is the second msot defended region in all of the Imperium(next to Holy Terra itself) Having been able to, time and again, batter it, bloody in and, now, occupy the gatehouse, Cadia itself, shows Chaos' power and sheer mass. However, it did take them 13 attempts to get this far. 

Now, on to Terra herself. Any major push in the Cadian gate would draw massive amounts of troops to the area, inorder to atempt and hold the Gate closed. Even with Cadia under Chaos control, no major push would be able to break down the gate unscathed. Taking into account the numerous battles on the way to Terra, as well as the battle to neutralise the fleet forces, Terra herself IS a massive fortress, which held out against the invading traitor legions during the Heresy, it could likely do so again, several times. It took 13 crusades to finally take Cadia. It would take several more to break out of the system and reach Terra and then the need to take Terr herself. In between the crusades, the taken systems have to be held, otherwise the door closes and it all has to be done again. The whole time, traitor forces are being wittled down. And although Loyalists would suffer grievous losses as well, the loyalists can birth more humans, and create more Space Marines. The traitors(unless i'm mistaken) must rely on fresh traitors to swell their ranks, and enough chapters turning to replace the losses is extremly unlikely. If a war of attrition began, Imperium wins...it's what they've been fighting for the past 10,000 years. 

There's also the logisticle side. Whether anyone likes it or not, guns need ammo, and both sides rely on ammo to kill the enemy. Assaults on the gate of close to home, with an easily accesible logistics route that is(basically) uncuttable. However, a deep strike into the Imperium, and to Terra, is literrally a do or die. IF the chaos forces make it that deep into Imperial space, they will need supply lines back to the Eye. Cut this, and Chaos either takes Terra before supplies run out, or atempt to flee, and risk encirclment. 
And as much fun as it would be to say "chaos would jsut bring ammo with them" they likely wouldn't have enough space to carry all the munitions it would take. That, and they need more then ammo. Food, water, spare parts for tankes, medical supplies, extra weapons, fuel, parts for armour, spare armour etc. Bringing enough for an assault on Terra would require two, maybe three times(at least) as much as it would actually take, to account for the losses of goods do to enemy action, human/super human error, etc. 

Point being, an assault on Terra is much harder then a 14th crusade is capable of. Perhaps the 20th, or even 30th crusade will make it to Terra, but they would have to hold open their supply lines. Fail that, and it becomes a do or die mission...with a time limit on it. 

Space Marines may not march on their stomach, but even they still need something to shoot outta their guns. 

(Oh, and then everyone falls prey to Invader Zim in their weakened state!)


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## Epic Fail (Jun 23, 2008)

It's a good question though, especially when you consider the impact on the rest of the imperium if forces are pulled from other fronts to defend Terra. Would outlying systems be overrun, could they ever be taken back (this assumes that Chaos sets up an enduring supply line back to the eye of course).

Here's an interesting question - what effect does the astronomicon have on Chaos fleets? Humanity use it as a beacon, and navigators are psychically attuned to it (by the soulbinding I think); but you'd think it'd be painful or fatal to a chaos navigator wouldn't you? Would the chaos fleets need to manually chug along the final approach to terra?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

i think Atsuno11 has a point. It did take Abadon a long ass time to get that far. Eldar and Tau are basically just whacken it, the Necrons just want to die, Tyranids fighting the orks. The craddle of mankind has kind of done alright dispite all the misfortunes it could have taken. If they had major problems with the orks and they didn't take care of the two tyranid fleets. 

Chaos though... has done extraordinarly well. I don't think anyone would have assumed that Chaos would have risen so much in power. If anything they have grown since the Heresy while the Space Marine Legions have gone incredibally weaker, due to the break up of chapters, the loss and theft of SOOO much geneseed, traitor marines/ renegades, and the deaths of most of their primarchs. So the imperium needs to consider that. A full assault on the walls of terra would be too stupid for Abbadon. But who knows, he basically did that for almost all the crusades prior. So i just dont know. Funny thing is that Abbadon doesn't really have the support of all the primarchs and their legions. He might have some, but hes really reliant on the fanatical sort. That might be a problem for him. i think that the other chaos legions will just unite to kick abadons ass because of all the glory he has taken. But otherwise, theres just too many problems Abbadon has, and due to the past crusades, he hasn't really had good tactician when performing these crusades. Most people would be quite suprised to how much of chaos he doesn't have at his side.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

@ Astuno11 & Ckcrawford )) -

Yes your points are valid that Chaos by itself is unlikely to be able to take Terra. However....



Micklez said:


> What makes you think these will happen in time for the 14th Black Crusade or that they will all happen together??? I can not see the Eldar weakening the Imperium so that Chaos can destroy it, it would make things harder for them. The Void Dragons been asleep on Mars for melleniums, why would he just wake up now. The Hive Fleets are too unpredictable to be used as an effective tool for Chaos, they would more likely re-act to them then influence them. The Orks i can see as a good tool for the BC's, alhough i can see them betraying at the most important moment :laugh:


Well all that is really needed to happen on my list is the Void Dragon being released. To my knowledge hes actually awake but is just imprisoned. (the others on the list are things/races which will capitalise on events if the Void Dragon awakens) We know that the Guardian of The Dragon; Dalia Cythera (since the time of the heresy) has now died, and because she let the book of the Dragon be lost/stolen this will have significant consequences, quote:

"Dalia Cythera, Guardian during the Horus Heresy, accidentally allowed a book containing the account of the Dragon to be taken from the Dragon's cavern. It it said there was much harm done because of this, but this couldn't be unmade when the cavern was again recovered and entered ten thousand years later, in the 41st millennium."

the Necrons are also aware that the Void Dragon is on Mars (note the ships that made it to the surface of Mars)

All the Warmaster has to do is wait until the Void Dragon gets released then launch the 14th Crusade! (We know that Abaddon is aware the Void Dragon is on mars, source eye of terror codex)

If the Void Dragon is released The Imperium would likely lose the Mechancium (or at least a lot of it who would recognise the Void Dragon as the Omnissiah) and the C'tan would easily crump the Solar System, the Warmaster merely has to take advantage of this! 

I also think the Hive Fleets could be used by Chaos. Tigurius is said to have manipulated a hive fleet into Ork Space, an amazingly powerful Psyker is required to withstand the Sheer mass of the Hive mind. Magnus is likely possible of this, or Tzeentch himself especially would easily be capable of it.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

you fool i am the void dragon


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

but seriously though. do they even know of the void dragon's existance. I dont think any of the apostles of mars even knew about it. I thought they all thought it was a myth or some kind of fable. If they don't know of its existance then for the most part they are safe.


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

Non the of Crusade were a failure; each one gained the powers of Chaos their intended goals, whatever those may have been. But Abaddon is anything but a fool. If he knows the Void Dragon is on Mars then that posses a serious risk to his plans; whatever his end goal may be. 

The Void Dragon has enough power to plunge the Mech into civil war, if not turning it entirely against the Imperium. While true it would be the perfect time to strike, what Necron forces would be in play at that point? That's just another threat that has only recently surfaced, and already shown a great deal of power. 

If Abaddon is to take over the Imperium, keep his sanity against the Chaos Gods, and rule unchecked in the Galaxy, he's got some serious planning to do; which takes a great deal of patience and information. He's waited 10k years so far, what's another few hundered?


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Atsuno11 said:


> However, it did take them 13 attempts to get this far.


It took the 13th black crusade to take Cadia, not all 13. The other black crusades fought their way past or found a way to circumvent the Gates. The 13th was targeted AT the Cadian Gates. And Abbadon took them, making landfall on the world and pushing the Imperium back. It is true that the area still contains a massive Imperial presence and Chaos does not own the entire planet, but the Imperium's dominance of the area has been broken. That is enough.

The Crusades have caused painful, bleeding wounds within the Imperium that it never full recovered from. Each weakened it a little more, destroying a bit more of its power and taking away irreplaceable resources. Only a short-sighted fool would look at such effects and view them as 'failures'. Chaos is like water: not ever the strongest stone can last forever against its eroding effects.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

:thank_you:


ckcrawford said:


> but seriously though. do they even know of the void dragon's existance. I dont think any of the apostles of mars even knew about it. I thought they all thought it was a myth or some kind of fable. If they don't know of its existance then for the most part they are safe.


Aye the Warmaster certainly knows of the Void Dragons presence on Mars (as seen in the Eye of Terror Codex)

The Necrons (or at least some) do (note the ships landing on mars)

The Imperium (apart from the Emperor) doesnt.

:good:



Revelations said:


> The Void Dragon has enough power to plunge the Mech into civil war, if not turning it entirely against the Imperium. While true it would be the perfect time to strike, what Necron forces would be in play at that point? That's just another threat that has only recently surfaced, and already shown a great deal of power.


Indeed thats a good point  - although i dont think (although its possible) that Mars is actually a tomb world. So the Necrons would have to come from outside the Sol System. But i hadn't thought about this before, so yes maybe the Necrons would play a role in such an event.



CamTheApostle said:


> It took the 13th black crusade to take Cadia, not all 13. The other black crusades fought their way past or found a way to circumvent the Gates. The 13th was targeted AT the Cadian Gates. And Abbadon took them, making landfall on the world and pushing the Imperium back. It is true that the area still contains a massive Imperial presence and Chaos does not own the entire planet, but the Imperium's dominance of the area has been broken. That is enough.


Aye. However i think at least 3 have been targeted at Cadia. The 1st, 2nd and the 13th i think. The details of 3 of the Crusades are also unknown so these also could have been. 

:thank_you:


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

I still raise the point of logistics, even Space Marines need something to shoot, but as GW ahs not granted enough information on this(I think they should write books with such information in it. Tactics, logistics...like a guide to Imperial(and other races) warfare) 

However, without such information, it is grim for the loyalists. The Void Dragon does pose a huge problem as worst case the entire Mechanicus turns into it's worship and best case being that the Mechanicus are badly damaged destroying the best. (This is assuming the Void Dragon is ever capable of escaping...it's been locked up or quite some time...it could be millenia before it is ever free.) 

In this situation, lacking better more detailed knowledge, the Black Crusades will eventually overwhelm the Imperium.


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## Micklez (Nov 22, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> If the Void Dragon is released The Imperium would likely lose the Mechancium (or at least a lot of it who would recognise the Void Dragon as the Omnissiah) and the C'tan would easily crump the Solar System, the Warmaster merely has to take advantage of this!


Unless he wants to wait until the necrons have killed terra and moved off it would be difficult for him to assault the imperial palace as well as fight a rearguard from the necrons. And please nobody say that he will wait for the necrons to finish, hes fought 10 000 years and denied daemonhood just so he can rip the emperors heart out.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I also think the Hive Fleets could be used by Chaos. Tigurius is said to have manipulated a hive fleet into Ork Space, an amazingly powerful Psyker is required to withstand the Sheer mass of the Hive mind. Magnus is likely possible of this, or Tzeentch himself especially would easily be capable of it.


You have supplied my rebuttle for this one mate, in another post :laugh: Tzeentch and Magnus are too busy playin the Great Game (well it had better be great, they have been playing for a long time eh :biggrin: ) to pay much attention to the material plane, and even then i dout they would even look at those base animals called Tyranids. There just too much up themselves for that



Revelations said:


> Non the of Crusade were a failure; each one gained the powers of Chaos their intended goals, whatever those may have been. But Abaddon is anything but a fool.


Agreed to both



Revelations said:


> If Abaddon is to take over the Imperium, keep his sanity against the Chaos Gods, and rule unchecked in the Galaxy, he's got some serious planning to do; which takes a great deal of patience and information. He's waited 10k years so far, what's another few hundered?


I think he already lost his sanity, with the stuff he's been through and seeing daddy's arse being handed to him by grandaddy would loosen a few nut upstairs


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

If they lose the Void Dragon that also means they probably lose Mars. The Void Dragon alone is actually like a big fucken deal. That means no more machine spirit, and no more crazy cool shit that machines have been doing this whole time. Most of their machinery like titans, dreadnaughts, and other forms of "Machine type life" basically will either stop working or they will turn into chaos, seeing that the Void Dragon is the source from their powers.


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

I have not seen(although ave not looked for) or heard of any proof that the Void Dragon causes any of this. They beleive he's the Omnissah(but tehn, some think the Emperor is.) He may have created(indiretly) the Mechanicum, but only taught them how to build the machines and to worship machines, I have yet to find antything mentioning he IS the machine spirit(if anyone has anything to share, articles and such, much appreciated) 
or that losing him means the loss of the weapons of man. The real problem is that MArs itself will be torn to pieces, and the dragon may head to Terra to obliterate the Emperor itself. 

Any plan with the Void Dragon relies on it actually being free AND that the majority of the mechanicum turns on humanity. 

On Abbadon, he has to be insane, but more like a Joker style crazy. Cool, calculating, planning and nuts, all at the same time.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Thats why the have the Void Dragon chained up. They wouldn't kill him because his power is a source from which all the weird power flows. So in keeping this i think this information can be better explained in Mechancum when the current dragon keeper talks to the past dragon keeper and about its purpose on mars.


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

I haven't read Mechanicum...perhaps someone could PM me the jist of the conversation till I get my hands on it 

I do know the Emperor didn't kill it because he believed that it would lead those on Mars to becom technologically advanced and that he could convince them to build him his weapons.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Atsuno11 said:


> The Void Dragon does pose a huge problem as worst case the entire Mechanicus turns into it's worship and best case being that the Mechanicus are badly damaged destroying the best.


The entire Adeptus Mechanicus already worships the Void Dragon, merely calling it the "Machine God" and not knowing that it is really a C'tan. 

Also from "Mechanicum" we know that the Guardian of the Dragon has the power to release the Void Dragon, a new guardian has/is taking over in M41, what this means we dont know



Micklez said:


> Tzeentch and Magnus are too busy playin the Great Game (well it had better be great, they have been playing for a long time eh :biggrin: ) to pay much attention to the material plane, and even then i dout they would even look at those base animals called Tyranids. There just too much up themselves for that


I disagree, yes the Great Game is there primary concern. However this does not mean they cannot be involved in other things.

Essentially Tzeentch could divert a Hive Fleet into Imperial Fleet for some reason that will give him an advantage in the Great Game. (Eg divert it into Imperial Space in order to retrieve an Artifact from an Imperial Planet which would otherwise be unassailable.)

And its possible Magnus still wants to crush the Imperium. (Note he tried to manifest on the planet of Garm to destroy the Space Wolves)

It should also be noted that if the Tyranid Hive Fleets posed a grave threat to the Chaos Gods supremacy, they would unite in order to stop/divert them. 



Atsuno11 said:


> I have not seen(although ave not looked for) or heard of any proof that the Void Dragon causes any of this. They beleive he's the Omnissah(but tehn, some think the Emperor is.) He may have created(indiretly) the Mechanicum, but only taught them how to build the machines and to worship machines, I have yet to find antything mentioning he IS the machine spirit(if anyone has anything to share, articles and such, much appreciated)
> or that losing him means the loss of the weapons of man. The real problem is that MArs itself will be torn to pieces, and the dragon may head to Terra to obliterate the Emperor itself.
> 
> Any plan with the Void Dragon relies on it actually being free AND that the majority of the mechanicum turns on humanity.
> ...


Firstly The Void Dragon Directly created the Mechancium. 

Hardly any if any at all still believe the Emperor is the Omnissiah (since the ascension).

The cold truth is that the Omnissiah does not exist, and is just a figment of the Cult of the Machine. The Machine god however does exist, but is the Void Dragon.

The Emperor essentially indirectly created the Omnissiah (or belief in such a being) so that when he came to Mars following the Unification Wars he would be recognised as the Omnissiah and the Mechancium would pledge allegience to him. 



Atsuno11 said:


> I haven't read Mechanicum...perhaps someone could PM me the jist of the conversation till I get my hands on it
> 
> I do know the Emperor didn't kill it because he believed that it would lead those on Mars to becom technologically advanced and that he could convince them to build him his weapons.


Here is a link which sums it up fairly nicely. However reading the book itself would be best :good: (and nice to debate with you again Atsuno!! :biggrin



ckcrawford said:


> If they lose the Void Dragon that also means they probably lose Mars. The Void Dragon alone is actually like a big fucken deal. That means no more machine spirit, and no more crazy cool shit that machines have been doing this whole time. Most of their machinery like titans, dreadnaughts, and other forms of "Machine type life" basically will either stop working or they will turn into chaos, seeing that the Void Dragon is the source from their powers.


The Void Dragon does not power the Machine Spirit. The Machine Spirit is not actually some spirit within machines. It is basically a vehicles automated systems - Similar to an AI (Although not actually AI as this is banned in the Imperium)

The Mechanicum believe that the Machine Spirit is a gift from the Machine god (which it essentially is, as it was the Void Dragon who taught them how to construct it)

So the Void Dragon isnt directly sustaining machines or anything like that  its not like without him Machines would just stop working :good:


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

thats what i meant sorry about the confussion, i only say machine spirit because thats what it is referred to and its what people have heard. But basically no void dragon no incredible machine performance


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> But basically no void dragon no incredible machine performance


Nope not true :biggrin:

The Void Dragon does not sustain Machinery in any way, all he did was reveal the technology to the mechanicum which then created it.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

then why is the dragon kept alive, i was sure that it was kept to manipulate Mars' source of technology.


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

(Excellent. I actually had already read that article.) 

Also, kind of a technical point...isn't the Imperium nearing the the end of M41...and no sign of any problems with the Void Dragon? I mean, why should it be THIS guardian that releases the Void Dragon? All of them have been following the Emperor's wishes so far...why would that suddenly end?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> then why is the dragon kept alive, i was sure that it was kept to manipulate Mars' source of technology.


No the reason it wasnt killed and was kept alive is so that it would reveal technology and secrets to the Martians who were then able to use them to create amazing weapons, to fuel the great crusade. (also im not sure whether or not a C'tan can actually conventionally be destroyed? i mean of course its Necromdermis can, but its essence would remain?)

It was also responsible for the Mechanicums veneration of Knowledge.

But it does not literally manipulate technology/machines. :good:



Atsuno11 said:


> (Excellent. I actually had already read that article.)
> 
> Also, kind of a technical point...isn't the Imperium nearing the the end of M41...and no sign of any problems with the Void Dragon? I mean, why should it be THIS guardian that releases the Void Dragon? All of them have been following the Emperor's wishes so far...why would that suddenly end?


Maybe it has something to do with the loss of the book by the last guardian? 

I think it implies that something is happening concerning the dragon as we are now at the end of M41.

and because of the loss of the book (to quote) "Dalia Cythera, Guardian during the Horus Heresy, accidentally allowed a book containing the account of the Dragon to be taken from the Dragon's cavern. It it said there was much harm done because of this, but this couldn't be unmade when the cavern was again recovered and entered ten thousand years later, in the 41st millennium."

Does this mean the Martians have uncovered the prison of the Dragon?


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## skynthos (Mar 16, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Emperor isn't all that..! Hes an amazingly powerful Psyker but i think it ends there. Hes not a god (however much he wants to be one!) - even a psyker of his power couldn't calm the warp. In order to calm the warp you would have to destroy most if not all mortals, and with the mortals the Warp Gods would be destroyed (as they require mortals emotions/thoughts/actions to sustain them)
> 
> Whilst mortals exist, so will Chaos



!!!!
You have raised a really interesting point there!! 
If Chaos manages to swarm from the eye, destroying all mortals.. Doesnt that mean that they will destroy themselves in the process?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

skynthos said:


> !!!!
> You have raised a really interesting point there!!
> If Chaos manages to swarm from the eye, destroying all mortals.. Doesnt that mean that they will destroy themselves in the process?


Yes by destroying all mortals, Chaos itself would be destroyed. But that is not Chaos' goal. The Dark Gods want to enslave the mortal races, to guarentee there power source, each god is personally fighting to make his emotion(s) the most prominent amongst mortals therefore empowering that god in the warp. (see The Great Game)

They know it is mortals that sustain and empower them they are not stupid enough to kill them all!


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## skynthos (Mar 16, 2009)

Ahhh i see, my lack of knowledge off the fluff shone through quite brightly there haha.

Basically, its almost impossible to win.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

skynthos said:


> Ahhh i see, my lack of knowledge off the fluff shone through quite brightly there haha.
> 
> Basically, its almost impossible to win.


:biggrin:

Try browsing the Lexicanum if you got a spare half hour at somepoint mate, theres not a lot of 40k fluff which isnt on there 

Heres a good starting point :good:


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

Child, I have to say you really do play down the Emperor. I mean, I know you don't like him(when I am a follower of the CHanger of Ways myself, I tend to say very nasty thigns about him) The fact is, the Emperor IS all that. He IS an excedingly powerful psyker, a great leader of men, a millitary genius, a genetic genius and a visionary. On top of that, he scared the Chaos Gods...the Big Four, enough that they saw to his near demise. He had t have been able to do something to threaten them if the fear he instilled was enough to feed them. It cannot be simply uniting humanity, either. For even if hi,anity was united, even if the Emperor's goals came to fruition, men would still feel anger and ahte, feel pleasure and lust. Men would still be plagued by disease, and still fear death. And change and evolution would be a constant. Even if they wished to expand into the mortal realm, their abttle with the Emperor began long before that. What is it about him that scares them so much, that they end infighting for an extended period of time, to bring him down?


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Atsuno11 said:


> Child, I have to say you really do play down the Emperor. I mean, I know you don't like him(when I am a follower of the CHanger of Ways myself, I tend to say very nasty thigns about him) The fact is, the Emperor IS all that. He IS an excedingly powerful psyker, a great leader of men, a millitary genius, a genetic genius and a visionary. On top of that, he scared the Chaos Gods...the Big Four, enough that they saw to his near demise. He had t have been able to do something to threaten them if the fear he instilled was enough to feed them. It cannot be simply uniting humanity, either. For even if hi,anity was united, even if the Emperor's goals came to fruition, men would still feel anger and ahte, feel pleasure and lust. Men would still be plagued by disease, and still fear death. And change and evolution would be a constant. Even if they wished to expand into the mortal realm, their abttle with the Emperor began long before that. What is it about him that scares them so much, that they end infighting for an extended period of time, to bring him down?


The Emperor of Mankind is what humanity could have been and possibly still can become. He is the next step in human evolution and he sought to guide humanity to his status. The Gods of Chaos foresaw this, understood that he was beyond their influence and he had the ability to unite humanity, stabilize their holdings and help push them to the next level. As well, I believe the understood that simply killing him would not be enough to stop him, as earlier fluff indicated he could reincarnate. It could possibly be that killing him would allow him to become some sort of warp entity beyond their influence and with the capacity to rival them.

So they imprisoned him in his own body, and for ten thousand years have gorged themselves on suffering as his empire slowly crumbles to nothing. Humanity has become stagnant, failing to embrace their psychic nature. I don't remember where the fluff is (possibly in the new BRB), but the Imperium is recording that a greater number of psyckers are born every year. If the Emperor had been there to guide them, who knows what would happen. As is, they are persecuted and hunted, used as tools and hated. One has to wonder why, with such a loving acceptance from their neighbors, so few psyckers go insane.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Atsuno11 said:


> Child, I have to say you really do play down the Emperor. I mean, I know you don't like him(when I am a follower of the CHanger of Ways myself, I tend to say very nasty thigns about him) The fact is, the Emperor IS all that.


:biggrin: i try not to!



Atsuno11 said:


> On top of that, he scared the Chaos Gods...the Big Four, enough that they saw to his near demise. He had t have been able to do something to threaten them if the fear he instilled was enough to feed them.


One account of the fight between the Emperor and Horus states that the Chaos Gods recoiled from the Emperors psychic attack, but others dont. I mean there is no way they could have been destroyed by Horus taking a hit. 



Atsuno11 said:


> that they end infighting for an extended period of time, to bring him down?


The Chaos Gods tend to end infighting and unite quite a few times. (daemon codex states roughly every few thousand years) - The Emperor was just one of these times 

and to-be-honest all they really did was corrupt Horus, after that they pretty much let Horus get on with it!


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Atsuno11 said:


> The fact is, the Emperor IS all that. He IS an excedingly powerful psyker, a great leader of men, a millitary genius, a genetic genius and a visionary. ?


He scarred the chaos gods I'll give you that. But as the rightful leader of mankind he is also responsible for his incompetence in keeping his empire in balance during the Horus Heresy. He fucked up Royally. He did not spend enough time with his armies to know... what they were capable of and to clearly demonstrate his dominion over his legions. It clearly is proof through all the rebellion. The funny thing is that even though the chaos gods fear him they understand that hes actually more powerful dead than alive. For sure.
Couple instinces:
1.The battle in where Horus saved the emperor from being torn apart for the ork warlord.
2. Horus almost slaying the emperor and basically putting him in a golden toilet for the rest of his life
3. The emperor's mistake in acknowledging the possiblity that Horus was the traitor instead of Magnus

Thats why i always keep the theory about the emperor actually fighting the chaos in the same way the alpha legion did. Giving chaos a physical entity to fight with. Theres just too much coincidence. Fully half the legions turn to chaos!! During the heresy these legions were in great question in which side they were on, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Dark Angels, Thousand Sons. And yet some how even though about 20% if the legion's primarchs did not ally themselves to horus (more so ideas Night Haunter- Future, Alpha Legion- future, Thousand Sons- the wolf misundestanding, Dark Angel- perhaps waiting to see outcome of the war) and were still able to fill in the slots to create a half and half seperation.


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## Wu-Tang-Tau (Apr 2, 2009)

The imperium should try to get da orks to fight em chaos boys!!! Since orks loves to fight I am sure they will love it. But of course the imperium are a bunch of intolerant fanatics so they will never bother with it.

Should have joined da greater good when they had the chance


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

There's a story of an Ork warboss going into the EoT and coming across a daemon world(Khrone speciffically) They were obliterated by the daemon was so...impressed i guess, with the Orks that every day their revived to fight the daemons again for all eternity. 

Happy ending for any Ork


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## Wu-Tang-Tau (Apr 2, 2009)

Atsuno11 said:


> There's a story of an Ork warboss going into the EoT and coming across a daemon world(Khrone speciffically) They were obliterated by the daemon was so...impressed i guess, with the Orks that every day their revived to fight the daemons again for all eternity.
> 
> Happy ending for any Ork


Thats Tuska the daemon slayer!!!! he really is da MAN/ORK! I am sure if the imperium is smart they can convince the ork to tackle the black crusade for the best fight!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Wu-Tang-Tau said:


> I am sure if the imperium is smart they can convince the ork to tackle the black crusade for the best fight!


During the 13th Black Crusade the forces of Chaos gave many Ork warlords weapons and equipment in return for them fighting the Imperium. 

So its the other way around


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## daemonprinceofchaos (Aug 4, 2008)

this is all good but remember that where talking about the crusades not the orksunish::rtfm:


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