# God of Chaos Undivided?



## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

There are Gods of Chaos that each represent a collective group of similar emotions. But as we well know, some worshipers prefer Chaos Undivided. You guessed it, they don't prefer one god over another. So if they are granted powers and mutations and ascentions, how does it get distributed out? 

The gifts they recieve are balanced and dont really seem to be more leaning to one god over the other so I always imagined that there would be a few daemons in the warp that sort of manage all of the unfocused energy. Unfocused as in these prayers arent towards any God in general, so its kind of just out there. 

So i figured if you guys think there might be some daemons that act as brokers of some sort or "contractors" (if you will, not sure what else to call them) who distribute power equally to these undivided mortals. Maybe this sint what "really" goes on in the warp but instead how a mortal might "interperit" it

If so then take this into consideration: Daemons that continue to grow stronger will eventually become greater daemons and daemon princes. (i think daemon prince only applies to mortals who have ascended; not sure but you get what i mean) Well, if a particular daemon of Chaos Undivided was given enough prayers and enough whatever you want to call it, and i t became more and more powerful, could it in a sense be sort of a lesser god of undivided? It would still be a daemon and in no way as powerfull as the 4 but in a way i see if it was given enough power, it could become a lesser god.

What are your thoughts?


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

I think it could not happen, people who worship undivided woship the pantheon ... sure sometimes balence in favor of one god might happen ... but if another god was made then it would have no worshippers as they are not worshipping "chaos undivided" as an entity but they are worshipping the pantheon of all four gods which is called "chaos undivided. I think I'm not making any sense ... oh well.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

cegorach said:


> I think it could not happen, people who worship undivided woship the pantheon ... sure sometimes balence in favor of one god might happen ... but if another god was made then it would have no worshippers as they are not worshipping "chaos undivided" as an entity but they are worshipping the pantheon of all four gods which is called "chaos undivided. I think I'm not making any sense ... oh well.


I suppose so, I took that into consideration as well. But I thought it could work because when people worship chaos as a pantheon, sure i guess it can go to all of chaos in general, but when they are being given powers, I highly doubt the 4 agree on a certain percentage they each will give because in the end it would be like "Hey Khorne! You said you would only give him 25% of your share. Now he's more on your side!"

So what do you think about there being daemons or forces who monitor and distribute undivided powers and blessings?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

I think the worship of Chaos Undivided is basically choosing to keep your options open. So you'd pray to Khorne for strength (and he'd bless you or not) and Tzeetch for wisdom (and again, possible blessings); as opposed to only ever praying to Khorne. What this means is that even worshippers of Chaos Undivided can show definite leanings towards one God or the other while still following Chaos Undivided. Examples can be seen in the Undivided legions (like the Iron Warriors in _Storm of Iron_)

This means that when a blessing is recieved by a worshipper of Chaos Undivided it would still come from one specific god, not a collective. So if for example Khorne feels that this individual (who only prays to Chaos Undivided) has had a really awesome angry-hacky-slashy-kill moment, he might choose to bless him with claw-hands (or something). This individual could latter have a nice moment of blissful ectasy and Slaanesh might give him a face tenticle. The point is that it's not all four Gods coming together and saying "Let's give this man some crab hands, we'll split it, 25% each okay?"


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## Silens (Dec 26, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> I think the worship of Chaos Undivided is basically choosing to keep your options open. So you'd pray to Khorne for strength (and he'd bless you or not) and Tzeetch for wisdom (and again, possible blessings); as opposed to only ever praying to Khorne. What this means is that even worshippers of Chaos Undivided can show definite leanings towards one God or the other while still following Chaos Undivided. Examples can be seen in the Undivided legions (like the Iron Warriors in _Storm of Iron_)
> 
> This means that when a blessing is recieved by a worshipper of Chaos Undivided it would still come from one specific god, not a collective. So if for example Khorne feels that this individual (who only prays to Chaos Undivided) has had a really awesome angry-hacky-slashy-kill moment, he might choose to bless him with claw-hands (or something). This individual could latter have a nice moment of blissful ectasy and Slaanesh might give him a face tenticle. The point is that it's not all four Gods coming together and saying "Let's give this man some crab hands, we'll split it, 25% each okay?"


^This, basically. Undivided go about their days worshipping all of the chaos gods and doing deeds for all of the chaos gods. One week, you might be ransacking a sacred library for arcane knowledge unseen for millenia and then next week you might be dropping into a planet in a drop pod to hack and slash your way to an enemy commander's skull. 

Also, there are already 'lesser gods' of chaos, but too many to recognize. Plus, they're all pretty week in comparison to the four great gods of chaos. I can't remember where I read this.. Might've been Liber Chaotica.


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Androxine Vortex said:


> I suppose so, I took that into consideration as well. But I thought it could work because when people worship chaos as a pantheon, sure i guess it can go to all of chaos in general, but when they are being given powers, I highly doubt the 4 agree on a certain percentage they each will give because in the end it would be like "Hey Khorne! You said you would only give him 25% of your share. Now he's more on your side!"
> 
> So what do you think about there being daemons or forces who monitor and distribute undivided powers and blessings?


Well i seriously dobt that any chaos gods would let daemons decide who they give power to and how much, but you can definatly have daemons that dont owe allegiance to any of the gods ... so im not sure but maybe if they got themselves a few planet wide cults they could turn themselves into incredibly minor gods.


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## revan4559 (Aug 9, 2010)

When a follwer of Undivided becomes a daemon prince they are generally become something similar to a 'lesser' god as all the worship goes directly to power them instead of being send to one of the main 4 gods. Hence why it is harder to become a daemon prince of undivided by when you do become a daemon prince you are so much stronger as you have either blessings from all 4 or all the worship goes to you. But it is much quicker and easier just to pick a god and follow them but then you are weaker than an undivided daemon prince as you only have the powers of 1 god instead of 4.

Also if a God was to take his powers back from a daemon prince of undivided it is SOOOOOO much harder as there are the powers of 3 other gods still holding it together so unless all 4 decide they don't like you anymore then you are still pretty much epic.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

revan4559 said:


> When a follwer of Undivided becomes a daemon prince they are generally become something similar to a 'lesser' god as all the worship goes directly to power them instead of being send to one of the main 4 gods.


Do you have a source for this or is it just speculation? 

It would seem to me that any individual posing as a Chaos Power would be quickly shown the error of their ways. Further the Gods do not really feed off the worship of their followers, but rather off the emotion that worship creates or requires. Thus it doesn't matter if you're worshipping Khorne, Ka'banda or Joe the Daemon Prince; if you get angry Khorne gets the power.


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## Warsmith40 (Feb 8, 2010)

^Exactly. Even the most staunchly loyal Black Templar feeds the bloodlust of Khorne. He doesn't care from where the blood flows, only that it does.

Also, at least in the latest edition of C:CSM, the daemons are described as extensions of the gods, with the "undivided daemons" simply having so little of their origin's aspect that they're generic. The hierarch (top to bottom) is generally Chaos god > daemon prince > greater daemon > "footsoldier" daemons (bloodletters or daemonettes for example) > lesser daemons. Daemon princes and greater daemons are major distributers of power, and to a mortal's mind might as well be gods. The Grey Knights novels describe entire systems breaking open at the whim of a daemon prince of Tzeentch.

Also, the notion of an undivided prince being of greater power than a focused one is a bit off. It really boils down to a matter of favor. A servant favored by Tzeentch and dedicated to only Tzeentch will receive far more sorcerous boons than an undivided prince. The difference is in the flavor of power, not magnitude. And allegiances can change if a god's favor seems... lacking. A Slaaneshi lord once tried to turn Kharn, (one of the short stories in _Let the Galaxy Burn_), a veritable avatar of Khorne, into a devotee of Slaanesh. Failed, but still possible.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Imagine the Gods as different fluids. Khorne is red fluid, Nurgle green ect ect. When you worship Chaos Undivided you simply mix those fluids together, creating a new colour of your own. That is Chaos Undivided. Its not some hiding God, only the other Gods mashed together.  There are however Chaos Undivided daemons, those droplets who fell out of the bowl of mixed fluids, creating paths of their own to serve which God is the most powerful at the moment.

Also, I think Greater Daemons beats Daemon Princes, since they are considered no-pure blood in lack of better terms. I think it is said in the latest Daemon codex.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Hmm okay. thanks for the responses. But since we are on the sbject on daemons, can't daemons/gods also gain power from being worshiped in rituals or something? I know that yeah to give Khorne power you simply kill in his name (well jsut kill in this case XD) but I'm sure that making offerings to the Gods or something else would grant them power.

And I am writing a story and need to know if it is possible for an undivided daemon to ascend to become a greater daemon? I guess I should ask how would they "ascend" and I suppose if they had enough followers that exclusivly worshiped that daemon than it would grant it more power. And since its undivided how would it "gain power"? Sorry if I am wording this horribly. You have no idea how tired I am


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Androxine Vortex said:


> Hmm okay. thanks for the responses. But since we are on the sbject on daemons, can't daemons/gods also gain power from being worshiped in rituals or something? I know that yeah to give Khorne power you simply kill in his name (well jsut kill in this case XD) but I'm sure that making offerings to the Gods or something else would grant them power.
> 
> And I am writing a story and need to know if it is possible for an undivided daemon to ascend to become a greater daemon? I guess I should ask how would they "ascend" and I suppose if they had enough followers that exclusivly worshiped that daemon than it would grant it more power. And since its undivided how would it "gain power"? Sorry if I am wording this horribly. You have no idea how tired I am


I should think it was certainly possible for a daemon to gain power through followers. If I knew how to put in spoiler warnings i might even be able to give you an example. But you worded it brilliantly.


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## Caratacos (Aug 26, 2008)

Look for a copy of the old book Realms of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned and start to read on page 86. There you will find an answer to your problem.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Androxine Vortex said:


> But since we are on the sbject on daemons, can't daemons/gods also gain power from being worshiped in rituals or something? I know that yeah to give Khorne power you simply kill in his name (well jsut kill in this case XD) but I'm sure that making offerings to the Gods or something else would grant them power.


Rituals definitely have their role to play in the worship of Chaos but I feel like it would be sort of secondary. For exampe I would imagine that a ritual for Khorne would involve blood-sacrifice and probably acts of murder, violence and rage. While the individual preforming these tasks would likely attribute any good-favour gained as a result of the ritual, Khorne itself is more likely to be enjoying the acts and emotions associated with the ritual and not the words used or symbols draw. Thus the ritual acts more as a way to get people to be angry and spill blood than as a way to actually reach Khorne (the anger and blood spilling will do that on their own).

That being said, their is a clear link between willing worship and reward. Perhaps this is because the ritual might act as a focus for the emotion? Meaning that when a Black Templar kills in the Emperor's name that kill spills out into the immaterium. Some of it will doubtlessly reach Khorne and further empower him but some of it is likely to bleed off (be devoured by lesser entities) on the way. A World Eater, who kills in Khorne's
name, might somehow be able to reduce the amount of bleed-off and thus maximize Khorne's reward. 



> And I am writing a story and need to know if it is possible for an undivided daemon to ascend to become a greater daemon? I guess I should ask how would they "ascend" and I suppose if they had enough followers that exclusivly worshiped that daemon than it would grant it more power. And since its undivided how would it "gain power"?


1) Undivided daemons; as in daemons of Chaos Undivided, don't really exist. There are daemons who are low enough on the food chain that they are not readily identifiable as belonging to one God or another however, and these are often called undivided daemons.

2) As an undivided daemon is not really bound to a God, and thus an emotion, it would be difficult for them to receive any additional power. The only way that I can really think of that this might work would be if the daemon began to specilize and thus moved more into one God's sphere. So a undivided lesser daemon might move to become a bloodletter, which would be a step up in the hierarchy of daemons (as I understand it).

3) This begs the question of where the undivided Greater Daemons that appear in C:CSM come from. This I would be tempted to write off as a game-balance thing but where's the fun in that. I would then speculate that greater daemons that are unaligned might in fact be lesser (as in *waay *lesser) gods whose personal spheres might be overlapped by more than one of the greater Gods. I choose to look at is as a sort of Venn diagram. You've got four big circles which cover everything and intersect slight in the middle (Chaos truely undivided) with perhaps several dozen smaller circles throughout. These smaller circles would be lesser gods of emotions like Fear, etc. Though fear is a common and oft fealt emotion the god of fear may not be that powerful as other of the more powerful Gods take some components of that emotion (sort of like a tax or something). Please do note that this is pretty much nothing but speculation.


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## Alex1706 (Sep 15, 2011)

There are smaller deities in the warp in addition to the four gods. At least that is what the old Deamonhunter Codex said.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

What i understand is that there was another major God of Chaos and that was Malal the God of Anarchy, despided by all other Gods of Chaos, very few Chaos warbands and legions follow Malal, but some do.


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## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Rituals definitely have their role to play in the worship of Chaos but I feel like it would be sort of secondary. For exampe I would imagine that a ritual for Khorne would involve blood-sacrifice and probably acts of murder, violence and rage. While the individual preforming these tasks would likely attribute any good-favour gained as a result of the ritual, Khorne itself is more likely to be enjoying the acts and emotions associated with the ritual and not the words used or symbols draw. Thus the ritual acts more as a way to get people to be angry and spill blood than as a way to actually reach Khorne (the anger and blood spilling will do that on their own).
> 
> That being said, their is a clear link between willing worship and reward. Perhaps this is because the ritual might act as a focus for the emotion? Meaning that when a Black Templar kills in the Emperor's name that kill spills out into the immaterium. Some of it will doubtlessly reach Khorne and further empower him but some of it is likely to bleed off (be devoured by lesser entities) on the way. A World Eater, who kills in Khorne's
> name, might somehow be able to reduce the amount of bleed-off and thus maximize Khorne's reward.
> ...


That was a very great response. I liked how you explained the difference between the ritual killing and an emotional one. The only thing I have to say i dont agree with is that when you said an undivided daemon would have to become a bloodletter if it aligned with khorne i dont think that could hapen because bloodletters were created by Khorne specifically and are a reflection of his emotions. Think about it this way (not trying to be rascist or anything) I'm white and listen to metal but if i wore baggy pants and listened to rap, would i turn black? no. (If that makes sense lol)


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Androxine Vortex said:


> That was a very great response. I liked how you explained the difference between the ritual killing and an emotional one.


Thanks!:grin:



> The only thing I have to say i dont agree with is that when you said an undivided daemon would have to become a bloodletter if it aligned with khorne i dont think that could hapen because bloodletters were created by Khorne specifically and are a reflection of his emotions. Think about it this way (not trying to be rascist or anything) I'm white and listen to metal but if i wore baggy pants and listened to rap, would i turn black? no. (If that makes sense lol)


The way I see it, daemon's are constantly being created and recreated and in the warp there is very little difference between one and the other. By which I mean a bloodletter is a minor daemon made of Khorne's energy (not necessarily his consious decision) that works for Khorne. Thus any daemon that becomes more made of Khorne's energy than other energies is functionally a bloodletter.

To go to your example and expand slightly. If you embrace the rap culture (which tends to glorify criminal activities) and thus begin to engage in say robberies and maybe even gang crimes, does it matter if you aren't actually black? No, the police will still treat you pretty much the same. You haven't actually changed your skin colour or appearance but you have aligned your personality with theirs and become functionally identical. Please note that none of this is intended to offensive or racist or anything.


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## GiftofChaos1234 (Jan 27, 2009)

intriguing topic guys, but im interested in knowing something.

would a daemon like say a beast of nurgle or screamers of tzeentch be more highly valued than the "standard" (if there is such a thing) daemon of that god?
like would a beast of nurgle be more appreciated by the plague god than the standard plaguebearer?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

GiftofChaos1234 said:


> like would a beast of nurgle be more appreciated by the plague god than the standard plaguebearer?


Appreciation is a pretty subject thing and I'm not sure it would apply particularly well to the relationship between Gods and their daemons. I think it's likely that a 'special' daemon requires a greater investment of power (though likely only slightly) than the basic footsoldier. Whether this means that the God also invests greater interest or caring into the daemon is anyones guess and I'm guessing it probably has more to do with the specific God and daemon. Khorne is unlikely to care all that much about his servents, regardless of their power level, whereas Nurgle is liable to care for all of them equally. In the end I think the Gods level of appreciation would be more dependent on the acts of the daemon than on its power-level/type.


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## Angrypainter (Sep 20, 2011)

Fantastic Thread, read it all and learnt quite a bit thanks


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