# Horus Heresy - A review



## Raptor_00 (Mar 17, 2008)

A Horus Heresy review, with NO real spoilers for those that don't want to know.

So, I recently started picking up the HH novels. I read the Word Bearers trilogy Dark Creed...etc and really go into them (being a Word Bearers player it was only natural for me to start there).

I'm currently almost done with False Gods (about 80 pages to go and only on the third day of reading it, if that tells you how much I enjoy it)

The first book is slow to start in my mind, even though it starts in combat, which is usually a great way to enthrall a reader. It takes about 50 pages to really get into it and then it flows nicely from then on. The only reason I say it's a slow start is character development doesn't really start until then, and that's a big part of what I look for in a read now a days: how can I relate to a character.

The story focuses on a marine named Loken, a member of the Luna Wolves. As the story progresses he becomes more fleshed out and he's the only real character you get a sense of in the story. I'd have loved to get more from Abbaddon, Horus and the rest of the Mournveil but they are relatively two-dimensional characters throughout the novel. And this is my biggest dislike of the book.
You get a real sense of Loken and what he's about. He becomes well developed and you can understand the choices he makes, not so with anyone else in the story, and that really made me hunger for more...in hopes that the other great heroes of the era become real in the story arch.
I was not disappointed.
False Gods does just that. You begin to see the anger of Abbaddon and the path the Horus starts to fall down. It flows. His is not a story of I'm a goody good good guy that goes oh, I'm evil one day..it's a path before him and his choices are logical and lead to his fall. I say this because other epic sagas, Star Wars for instance extremely disappointed me. I felt Anikin was good till all of a sudden he goes and starts killing "younglings". His path to the dark side was to fast to really explore things. The HH novels lays Horus' path much nicer.
Again, the role of the Word Bearers in Horus' fall is nicely done and laid out in a fashion I believe the legion would have taken. And being a WB fan/player I had to cheer for these guys and their evilness, even though you see the evil and corruption in them.
More characters begin to take a leading role in the Heresy in False Gods as you begin to learn more about them and they tie in nicely into the storyline. They don't feel tacked on, they feel like a natural evolution of the character.

Over all I was impressed with the start of the series, so far. I've read a good deal of fluff from Heresy-Online as well as codices and the BL fiction really fleshes out the story a lot.
As a sci-fi story, it's not going to be enjoyable if you're not a 40k player. They gloss over some things that are crucial to understanding the 40k universe, unless you've read at least one codex beginning. And from that standpoint, the HH novels are not meant for a casual sci-fi reader. But for us here, it's a definite win.
I plan to finish False Gods tonight and the next installment lays awaiting me in my nightstand. Then, time to order more.

As a read, I give it a 9 out of 10. The few failings I find with it are no where near enough for me to put the series down.


----------



## Nikolai (Mar 16, 2010)

Seriously buddy, I have read them all recently acquired Fallen Angels and A Thousand Sons for my birthday.

Horus Rising, False Gods and Galaxy in Flames: They are awesome, the third book is exceptional I won't spoil the ending but I swear I am not a man prone to emotion but it touched a nerve. 10/10 over these three.

Flight of the Eisenstein, now there were a few jarring points in this one, but it still carried the story well. 7/10, just because there were a few consistency errors.

Fulgrim, back to brilliance, I loved the portrayal of The Emperor's Children in this book and the ending is a piece of brilliance. 9/10.

Descent of Angels, another great read, I really enjoyed it, but it was definitely in need of a sequel, hopefully Fallen Angels will continue it nicely. 9/10.

Battle for the Abyss, I liked it, the characters were good, the story had all the right things in it. 8/10.

Mechanicum, loved this one. I really did enjoy the way they handled the division of the Mechanicum during the initial stages of the Heresy. 9/10.

Tales of Heresy, I enjoyed it. There were a few bits that kind caught a bit with me but that's unavoidable. The Last Church was my favourite story. 9/10

So far alls I got and can say without spoilers, but seriously it is a fantastic series, the first three are my favourites.


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Nikolai said:


> Battle for the Abyss, I liked it, the characters were good, the story had all the right things in it. 8/10.


Be prepared to have that one debated, rather one-sidedly. Most people here hate that book, due to the clumsy and idiotic way it portrayed the Sons of Lorgar. Personally I agree, but I dont think the book is bad. I think it just portrayed the Word Bearers badly.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Nikolai said:


> Seriously buddy, I have read them all recently acquired Fallen Angels and A Thousand Sons for my birthday.
> 
> Horus Rising, False Gods and Galaxy in Flames: They are awesome, the third book is exceptional I won't spoil the ending but I swear I am not a man prone to emotion but it touched a nerve. 10/10 over these three.
> 
> ...


You seem easily pleased  - I thoroughly enjoyed the Series so far, even though it has had a few blips. But its not exactly a great work of literature that will hail down the ages.



Nikolai said:


> Battle for the Abyss, I liked it, the characters were good, the story had all the right things in it. 8/10.





Lord of the Night said:


> Be prepared to have that one debated, rather one-sidedly. Most people here hate that book, due to the clumsy and idiotic way it portrayed the Sons of Lorgar. Personally I agree, but I dont think the book is bad. I think it just portrayed the Word Bearers badly.


Yeah, I dont think i'll even start, i'll just get myself wound up


----------



## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

The strange thing is that the Word Bearers have been portrayed as super-competent and wickedly evil throughout the series _except_ in the book that has focused the most on them. I actually liked _Battle for the Abyss_ for the way they portrayed the barely-contained fury that is the non-Khorne World Eaters and the first look at a loyal Thousand Sons marine. However, that could have been accomplished in any number of other ways that didn't take a full book.

Also, I didn't like _Descent of Angels_ very well. I just didn't feel like I was reading a book that contained any worthwhile information. In fact, I skip that book when I read back through the series as I feel that I get all I need from the _Tales of the Heresy_ story and from _Fallen Angels._

Thanks,
Howard


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

space cowboy said:


> The strange thing is that the Word Bearers have been portrayed as super-competent and wickedly evil throughout the series _except_ in the book that has focused the most on them. I actually liked _Battle for the Abyss_ for the way they portrayed the barely-contained fury that is the non-Khorne World Eaters and the first look at a loyal Thousand Sons marine. However, that could have been accomplished in any number of other ways that didn't take a full book.


Well the only portrayal of the Word Bearers we have so far is Erebus in the opening trilogy. And he comes across as a calm and calculated force.

The Word Bearers were portrayed well in _Scions of the Storm_, and I have no doubt will be in _The First Heretic_. We also have Lorgar who was in _A Thousand Sons_, the calm between the raging storm of Magnus and Russ, pretty nice guy in that book 

But as for the Legion as a whole, we really only have _Scions of the Storm_ to go on so far in the series.


----------



## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

My main problem was battle for the abyss was that it seemed so forced. Even without knowing the story you could just tell that the ultramarines were going to pull through from the almost sycophantic style. I just found it to be well written but poorly constructed as a tale.

A thousand sons is my favourite horus heresy book hands down, though according to many friends if I manage to ever get my hands on a library copy of fulgrim that may change.

As for Horus Rising (loved the beginning line I was there the day Horus killed the emperor, hooked me straight off) and False Gods I love them devoured both books in about 4 hours each (admittedly it was my first taste of black library fiction and I have always been a keen reader) yet Galaxy in Flames annoyed me some how.

It's nothing i can put my finger on, nothing concrete yet something irked me about that book (possibly already knowing the story and thus not gaining the full dramatic impact). I think... tentatively, I felt that the writing style lacked elegance and maturity and I found it almost childish in style, plus the fact that Nero Vipus did not get a tragic demise was highly irritating, loved that guy.

On the childish point, in Eisenhorn and a thousand sons (two examples of in my opinion black library literary excellence.... forgive my ignorance but as I'm at uni my black library reading is constricted to what the library has to offer), there are a few turns of phrase are almost breathtaking, a thousand sons in particular I'm ashamed to admit at one part i had to reach for the tissues and dab away a teary eye at not only the tragic irony of Magnus's failure and how McNeil managed to embeliish the irony with some beautiful descriptions and a fantastic- fluid literary style.

Maybe I had just been spoilt by other literary works or by my own knowledge and maybe reading it again would change my view completly but i got more out of false gods, though the bravery of the loyal World eaters as they were smashed by there primarch was fantastic.

Legion, great story twists turns and really picked up pace towards the end however i personally found it slow to start and at the beginning I wasn't hooked though the book sunk its claws and dragged me into the depths of intrigue kicking and screaming. Loved the ending, though I wonder if we will hear more of the alpha legion in the horus heresy or if that will remain a cliffhanger... part of me really hopes so, I hope there are plenty of hints to th cabals workings but nothing concrete. I think it will take all of which ever writers guile to right the next alpha legion book

Mechanicum, I have never finished and have no intention of doing so, I couldn't get into the book at all and found it to slow and laborious at the beginning so i chucked it and read descent of angels and fallen angels. Both of which I've enjoyed and dvoured but neither of which have really done anything for me. I think being a thousand sons fan (False gods is liable Magnus became the embodiment of awesome) has possibly soured me to other books and made A thousand sons take on a new element of awesome.

Well thats my two cents, still a great series and well worth the read


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

deathbringer said:


> My main problem was battle for the abyss was that it seemed so forced. Even without knowing the story you could just tell that the ultramarines were going to pull through from the almost sycophantic style. I just found it to be well written but poorly constructed as a tale.





deathbringer said:


> yet Galaxy in Flames annoyed me some how.
> 
> It's nothing i can put my finger on, nothing concrete yet something irked me about that book (possibly already knowing the story and thus not gaining the full dramatic impact). I think... tentatively, I felt that the writing style lacked elegance and maturity and I found it almost childish in style, plus the fact that Nero Vipus did not get a tragic demise was highly irritating, loved that guy.


Maybe its Ben Counter 

Thanks to those two books (_Battle for the Abyss_ mainly) i've decided to not read any more Ben Counter, theres just something about his novels which seem too 'black and white' and obvious. Shame really, because i've heard some positive (albeit also some negative) things about his Grey Knights series - but oh well ADB is doing a Grey Knights series soon :grin:


----------



## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

I actually was trying to be tactful and avoid bashing Ben Counter as best I could especially as I used to go to his local store before I moved to university and though i have never had the pleasure I am told he is lovely.

Yeah in future I'm sticking away, I'm eagerly anticipating the first heretic and I need to have a mosey through fulgrim might splash out and buy it tomorrow


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

deathbringer said:


> I actually was trying to be tactful and avoid bashing Ben Counter as best I could especially as I used to go to his local store before I moved to university and though i have never had the pleasure I am told he is lovely.


Indeed, and im sure he is - But criticising his novels isn't rude 



deathbringer said:


> Yeah in future I'm sticking away, I'm eagerly anticipating the first heretic and I need to have a mosey through fulgrim might splash out and buy it tomorrow


Aye same, the quote from it that ADB posted somewhere on Heresy regarding Lorgar speaking of the Emperor as a god was a great teaser! As well as the titles of the first 6 chapters he posted on his blog, can't wait :grin:

Yeah I would advise _Fulgrim_, but it works best if you've read _Horus Rising_, _False Gods_ and _Galaxy in Flames_ first, as it revisits some of the events from those three books.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Personally I enjoyed Machanicus, Decent of Angels and Fulgrim...... first three books were ok, maybe 7 out of 10. The rest were ok apart from legion.... I couldn't even make it 30 pages in before wanting to burn it.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> The rest were ok apart from legion.... I couldn't even make it 30 pages in before wanting to burn it.


Really? 

Howcome? I thought it was one of the best, if not the best Heresy novel.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I really just couldn't get into it. IDk I could have just been having a bad day when I tried to read it, maybe I will give it a second chance.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Definitely give it a second try- I rank it and Fulgrim as my favourite Horus Heresy Novels (with Horus Rising and A Thousand Sons in 2nd place).


----------



## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yeah I would advise _Fulgrim_, but it works best if you've read _Horus Rising_, _False Gods_ and _Galaxy in Flames_ first, as it revisits some of the events from those three books.


Read all the books so far par fulgrim
Legion starts slowly thats its main problem, it takes a little time for you to really grasp whats going on but if you persevere it really does improve

Anyone that can get through Mechanicum has my deepest respect, tried again last night, couldn't do it and its surprising considering I really love mcNeill's writing, maybe its my disinterest in the legions of mars


----------



## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

deathbringer said:


> Read all the books so far par fulgrim
> Legion starts slowly thats its main problem, it takes a little time for you to really grasp whats going on but if you persevere it really does improve
> 
> Anyone that can get through Mechanicum has my deepest respect, tried again last night, couldn't do it and its surprising considering I really love mcNeill's writing, maybe its my disinterest in the legions of mars


I feel the same way sometimes. I like the Mechanicum yet I find their parts hard to get through. But I slog through them, knowing ill like them at the end.

My favourite HH novel is _A Thousand Sons_ with _Fulgrim_ as a close second. I haven't read _Legion_ yet, nor have I bought it but its on my list. Still got to read _False Gods_, _Galaxy in Flames_, _Flight of the Eisenstein_, _Battle for the Abyss_ and _Fallen Angels_, :shok: its a lot I know.


----------



## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Lord of the Night said:


> I feel the same way sometimes. I like the Mechanicum yet I find their parts hard to get through. But I slog through them, knowing ill like them at the end.
> 
> My favourite HH novel is _A Thousand Sons_ with _Fulgrim_ as a close second. I haven't read _Legion_ yet, nor have I bought it but its on my list. Still got to read _False Gods_, _Galaxy in Flames_, _Flight of the Eisenstein_, _Battle for the Abyss_ and _Fallen Angels_, :shok: its a lot I know.


Well.. Im over two-thirds of the way through _Galaxy in Flames_, so by far have more of the Horus Heresy to read. But, regardless, in suprised you have read a peppering of books from the series, without the initial _slog_ of the first trilogy - Although by no means a bad thing, as _Hor__us Rising_ and _False Gods_ are masterpieces, with _Galaxy in Flames_ somewhat lacking that literical edge that Abnett & McNeil so effortlessly conjour, but is overflowing with action (Which _False Gods_ lacked)

Im just suprised you haven`t read them in order of publication (Or even chronological order) Surely that must affect the enjoyment somewhat?


----------



## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

bobss said:


> Although by no means a bad thing, as _Hor__us Rising_ and _False Gods_ are masterpieces, with _Galaxy in Flames_ somewhat lacking that literical edge that Abnett & McNeil so effortlessly conjour, but is overflowing with action (Which _False Gods_ lacked)
> 
> Im just suprised you haven`t read them in order of publication (Or even chronological order) Surely that must affect the enjoyment somewhat?


I completely agree with that statement. Oh I think Horus's duel on Davin's moon was an exceptional scene but yes Galaxy in Flames is action packed

As for chronological order, most of us know the general outline of the horus heresy anyway, whilst books backtrack revisit and rediscuss various events so chronological order is not essential. I did my best but i missed fulgrim


----------



## bobss (May 18, 2008)

deathbringer said:


> I completely agree with that statement. Oh I think Horus's duel on Davin's moon was an exceptional scene but yes Galaxy in Flames is action packed
> 
> As for chronological order, most of us know the general outline of the horus heresy anyway, whilst books backtrack revisit and rediscuss various events so chronological order is not essential. I did my best but i missed fulgrim


That I in turn can agree with. The ambush on Davins moon, took a nice middle chunk out, but I cannot help but feel that the short and shirkishly outlined war against the Technocracy was created _just_ to give us more action, benefitting the plot little.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

bobss said:


> That I in turn can agree with. The ambush on Davins moon, took a nice middle chunk out, but I cannot help but feel that the short and shirkishly outlined war against the Technocracy was created _just_ to give us more action, benefitting the plot little.


The war against the Technocracy served to further alienate the Astartes (notably Loken) who were opposed to Horus entering the Delphos. It was part of the process which led up to Isstvan III.

The war also resulted in Horus gaining an STC, which was used to gain the support of Kelbor-Hal and large sections of the Mechanicum.

Essentially I think it was just added to try and flesh out how the Warmaster had changed post-Davin without just throwing us straight into Isstvan III. And of course to show us one of the reasons why the Mechanicum sided with Horus.


----------



## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The war against the Technocracy served to further alienate the Astartes (notably Loken) who were opposed to Horus entering the Delphos. It was part of the process which led up to Isstvan III.
> 
> The war also resulted in Horus gaining an STC, which was used to gain the support of Kelbor-Hal and large sections of the Mechanicum.
> 
> Essentially I think it was just added to try and flesh out how the Warmaster had changed post-Davin without just throwing us straight into Isstvan III. And of course to show us one of the reasons why the Mechanicum sided with Horus.


Loken and Torgaddon could have been likewise alienate and cast out from the upper echelons of the Sons of Horus with barely a little more effort in _Galaxy in Flames_, and to my remembrance they were already shunned and not trusted even before Horus entered the pagan temple upon Davin in _False Gods_, due to Lokens sympathy towards Karkasy and the remembrancers as a whole, angering Abbadon and with Torgaddon likewise supporting his friend.

As for the promise of a Standard Template Construct to the Mechanicus contingent of the _Vengeful Spirit_, im not to sure. I haven`t read _Mechanicum_, nor anything past Ga_laxy in Flames _so cannot debate that


----------



## chaoslover (Aug 3, 2009)

fulgrim is my favourite by far! next is thousand sons, then the first three are excellent as well........
descent of angels was awful in my opinion, used up all my patience with it,
fallen angels was only marginally better, really struggled with them, both seemed fairly pointless.....
legion i loved and cant tell u why......
mechanicum i did struggle with but im glad i stuck with it, i even read it again and enjoy it alot now with some great info..........Battle of the abyss......................no words.......as if anyone can believe how awful the wordbearers fought! as if! and its not helped people like ultramarines........flight of the einstein was a 5 out of 10 for me... was good in places but bad in others...
overall all the books i think put too much pointless filler in them but i cant stop reading as i love the fiction


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

My ranking would go:

1. Galaxy In Flames
2. Fulgrim
3. Horus Rising
4. False Gods
5. A Thousand Sons
6. Mechanicum
7. Tales of Heresy
8. Flight of the Esenstien
9. Battle for the Abys
10. Descent of Angels
11. Legion
12. Fallen Angel

Fulgrim would be number one, if Galaxy In Flames did not have Loken there. Wouldn't be another thought but Fulgrim. But Loken was just such a good character portrayed in the books.

Dark Angels series I was not particulary satisfied with. I put Descent of Angels before Legion only because Zahariel's character was portrayed and described very well. My disapointment probably comes from the fact that it just moved to slow, and right when you think something big is going to happen it doesn't. The biggest thing so far was an internal conflict with those warped entities on Caliban and the rebellious uprise.


----------



## Soul Hunter (Apr 7, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Aye same, the quote from it that ADB posted somewhere on Heresy regarding Lorgar speaking of the Emperor as a god was a great teaser! As well as the titles of the first 6 chapters he posted on his blog, can't wait :grin:


Teaser? I know all about the legions and why the ones that did turned to chaos (Except for the Death Guard. The reason for thier treason has always been in the shadows). I only get the books because they supply excessively more detail and character development than reading net articles and the CSM codex.


----------



## Soul Hunter (Apr 7, 2010)

deathbringer said:


> My main problem was battle for the abyss was that it seemed so forced. Even without knowing the story you could just tell that the ultramarines were going to pull through from the almost sycophantic style. I just found it to be well written but poorly constructed as a tale.
> 
> A thousand sons is my favourite horus heresy book hands down, though according to many friends if I manage to ever get my hands on a library copy of fulgrim that may change.


Firstly, I agree completely and wholeheartedly with you on _Battle for the Abyss_. It pissed me off that Ben Counter kissed the Ultramarines' asses for the entire book. He even managed to condone sending fourty marines against the largest Battle Barge in imperium history protected by an entire chapter of Word Bearers (In case, for some reason you didn't know, a chapter is one thousand marines). I don't know where he comes from, or where any of you come from, nor do I care, but in Canada, we call that suicide, and its application is generally frowned upon. Still, I liked how he portrayed the Loyalist World Eaters and Thousand Sons.

Secondly, I Liked _A Thousand Sons_ alot and, even though I knew the stor of the fall of The Thousand Sons inside and out, it had me hooked, all the way until the last few chapters. That's when the dissappointment began. I knew from before that Magnus had refrained from the majority of the battle because he felt that he and his legion deserved thier fate, but had joined at the end to combat The Russ to save what was left of his legion. What I've always wondered was where did his resolve waver and die. When did he say, "F**k it, The Emperor can burn on his throne, I want to save what is left of my legion? At what point did he finally decide that his legion (Which incidently, according to himself before the battle for Prospero, deserved thier fate) was more important than The Emperor, the greatest leader of mankind?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Soul Hunter said:


> Secondly, I Liked _A Thousand Sons_ alot and, even though I knew the stor of the fall of The Thousand Sons inside and out, it had me hooked, all the way until the last few chapters. That's when the dissappointment began. I knew from before that Magnus had refrained from the majority of the battle because he felt that he and his legion deserved thier fate, but had joined at the end to combat The Russ to save what was left of his legion. What I've always wondered was where did his resolve waver and die. When did he say, "F**k it, The Emperor can burn on his throne, I want to save what is left of my legion? At what point did he finally decide that his legion (Which incidently, according to himself before the battle for Prospero, deserved thier fate) was more important than The Emperor, the greatest leader of mankind?[/FONT]


Throughout the opening stages of the battle, when Magnus remains in his pyramid, it states that he is desperate to get involved and help his beloved sons from the mess that he put them in, but he doesn't - his willpower remains strong, and he believes that he and his Legion deserves the fate being dished out by the Wolves of Fenris.

But I believe the final straw that makes him get involved is the appearance of Russ at his pyramid. That and his realisation that everything that had happened had been destined to happen all along, as well as was his duel with Leman Russ.


----------



## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

I quite like fallen angels. Im probably biased as i play dark angels but i thought it give a very good insight as to how the lion felt during the heresey. I personally think it put to bed that the lion was sitting on the fence to see which side would win. He come out as a true loyalist and a great tactician when he knows that horus is going for the seige engines and gets there before him to personally lead the attack against the sons of horus. He is unlucky at the end when he hands them over to perturabo as he doesnt know that perturabo has turned traitor. By the way neither does the emperor at this stage.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

FORTHELION said:


> He is unlucky at the end when he hands them over to perturabo as he doesnt know that perturabo has turned traitor. By the way neither does the emperor at this stage.


Its not unlucky - Its stupidity brought about by the Lion's utter arrogance.


----------



## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Its not unlucky - Its stupidity brought about by the Lion's utter arrogance.


ok ill grant you that there may have been a bit of stupidity there.

But my main point was that i think it did show that the lion was a loyalist at heart and not sitting on the fence as some people still seem to think.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

FORTHELION said:


> But my main point was that i think it did show that the lion was a loyalist at heart and not sitting on the fence as some people still seem to think.


I largely agree. Although there was still a lot of suspicious goings on occuring throughout the book which involved the Lion to some degree, his apparent damnation of Caliban and his appointment of Cypher as examples.


----------



## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> there was still a lot of suspicious goings on occuring throughout the book which involved the Lion to some degree, his apparent damnation of Caliban and his appointment of Cypher as examples.


i would also agree with you there.

Though the main reason in believing him to be a real loyalist was the fact that when he found out about horus. He headed straight for the seige engines to stop him getting them. Now in my opinion if the lion was unsure of which side to choose he would have just sat back and done nothing. But he made the right decision and defended them, and in the process kicked the sons of horus ass back to were they came from.

I really enjoyed that part of the book. It was the first time we got to see loyalist marines actually defeating traitor marines in open war fare. And with it being my beloved Dark Angels it made it all the sweeter.:biggrin:


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Its not unlucky - Its stupidity brought about by the Lion's utter arrogance.


Wrong..... in some part but partially true I suppose. It was not his hubris, it was his inability to read people. I believe it is hinted at, if not directly mention throughout the book. It was probably due in large part to the fact that he grew apart from human contact so his brain would not have been wired the same way yours or mine would be, subtle hints would completely escape him. Although I will admit the mans ego was enormous.

BTW tried to get through Legion again a few days ago...... made it 60 or so pages in before wanting to kill myself. lol


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

deathbringer said:


> Read all the books so far par fulgrim
> Legion starts slowly thats its main problem, it takes a little time for you to really grasp whats going on but if you persevere it really does improve
> 
> Anyone that can get through Mechanicum has my deepest respect, tried again last night, couldn't do it and its surprising considering I really love mcNeill's writing, maybe its my disinterest in the legions of mars


Odd, it is really quite good. You should give it another go, there is light at the end of the tunnel. lol


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Wrong..... in some part but partially true I suppose. It was not his hubris, it was his inability to read people. I believe it is hinted at, if not directly mention throughout the book. It was probably due in large part to the fact that he grew apart from human contact so his brain would not have been wired the same way yours or mine would be, subtle hints would completely escape him. Although I will admit the mans ego was enormous.
> 
> BTW tried to get through Legion again a few days ago...... made it 60 or so pages in before wanting to kill myself. lol


Perturabo has always been noted as being aloof, bitter and distant from all his brothers, hence why the Lion refers to him as 'cousin' rather than 'brother'. His handing over of the siege weapons to Perturabo has little to do with him being able to read people, no one would have really suspected Perturabo as having joined Horus, well Rogal Dorn didn't anyway.

He gave the Siege Weapons to Perturabo to secure his brother's support in his own bid to become Warmaster, which he firmly believed would be for the betterment of the Imperium and Mankind. It was this arrogance that made him give the weapons to Perturabo, more so than his inability to read people.



gen.ahab said:


> BTW tried to get through Legion again a few days ago...... made it 60 or so pages in before wanting to kill myself. lol





gen.ahab said:


> Odd, it is really quite good. You should give it another go, there is light at the end of the tunnel. lol


I would advise you to take your own advice 

Personally _Legion_ is one of my favourite HH novels, I would really advise reading the rest of it.


----------



## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

Legion is a bit slow starting, ill agree on that but it is a cracking book.

Nice to have a slower paced HH book to read!


----------



## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

I'll give it a go if i can get my hands on a library copy, glue and the new BA codex is going to cost me dear plus i need food, drat survival, costing me money.

As for legion it only gets better, i too struggled to get into it, but it only goes up and the end is fantastic, some real nice twists.

As for the lion he is a pompous self loving prick, i truly sympathise with luther, after he stood his life uncomplaining in luthers shadow, was forced to endure the torment of being inferior and unable to become a full astartes and then being shunned by the Lion. Though I guess the betrayal is points against.

Must admit i didnt expect that


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I would advise you to take your own advice
> 
> Personally _Legion_ is one of my favourite HH novels, I would really advise reading the rest of it.


I knew someone might say that but I actualy liked mechanicum from the start. Lol


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> He gave the Siege Weapons to Perturabo to secure his brother's support in his own bid to become Warmaster, which he firmly believed would be for the betterment of the Imperium and Mankind. It was this arrogance that made him give the weapons to Perturabo, more so than his inability to read people.


I disagree. If he was really arrogant I think he would have kept the siege weapons for himself and taken all the credit by using them... if indeed they really meant anything to the overall scheme of things. I thought the ending of Fallen Angel if anything, was ironic in the fact that Lion El Johnson's distrust and paranoia over his planet Caliban and half his legion did him ill well while letting lose this trait with his brother primarch also did him ill. Misplace he did his distrust and paranoia. 

Also, Lion El Johnson is known to portray his arrogance openly like his ordeal with Leman Russ. If he really wanted acceptance of his other primarchs he could have easily started with Leman Russ. What did he think when he gave the siege weapons to Perturabo? "Perturabo is going to give me the Warmaster position?" I don't think so, thats the emperor's job. I would say there was more to giving the weapons to Perturabo than simple ass kissing, which is a bit sudden if you ask me.


----------



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

deathbringer said:


> Read all the books so far par fulgrim
> Legion starts slowly thats its main problem, it takes a little time for you to really grasp whats going on but if you persevere it really does improve
> 
> Anyone that can get through Mechanicum has my deepest respect, tried again last night, couldn't do it and its surprising considering I really love mcNeill's writing, maybe its my disinterest in the legions of mars


I know what you mean. Its got a few small battles here and there, but the heresy novel isn't really about action but more mystery. Not one of my favorites but it does have a "scooby-doo" ending.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> I disagree. If he was really arrogant I think he would have kept the siege weapons for himself and taken all the credit by using them... if indeed they really meant anything to the overall scheme of things.


Everything the Lion did can arguably be said to have been mainly because he wanted to be elected as the new Warmaster. The Lion didn't want to keep the Siege Engines, he had no use of them, the reason he moved on Diamat was to show his worth and to defeat Horus' rebellion with a handful of troops, thus showing his great tactical accumen. The Lion even states himself that he wanted Perturabo to keep what happened on Diamat to himself, or at least only between the Primarchs so that he would seem the most obvious choice as the next Warmaster:

"In fact, I think its best if no one outside you, I and the other Primarchs ever knew I was here. I wouldn't want the Emperor to believe I did any of this with an ulterior motive in mind." - Page 411. Obviously though we know he did it with an ulterior motive in mind, and that was an attempt to become the new Warmaster. It was his utter arrogance (that he believed he would have made a better Warmaster than Horus, and should be Warmaster once Horus was defeated) that led to Perturabo (and thus Horus) gaining the Siege Engines. After all, the only reason he gave the Siege Engines to Perturabo was to gain the Iron Warriors' Primarch's support in his bid to become Warmaster. He didn't just give them Perturabo randomly as a gift, he gave them to him to secure his support (because of his arrogance). 



ckcrawford said:


> Also, Lion El Johnson is known to portray his arrogance openly like his ordeal with Leman Russ. If he really wanted acceptance of his other primarchs he could have easily started with Leman Russ. What did he think when he gave the siege weapons to Perturabo? "Perturabo is going to give me the Warmaster position?" I don't think so, thats the emperor's job. I would say there was more to giving the weapons to Perturabo than simple ass kissing, which is a bit sudden if you ask me.


No offence, but I think you need to read the ending of _Fallen Angels_ again. He gave the Siege Weapons to Perturabo to gain support in his bid to become the new Warmaster:

"So I can count on your support when the time comes? I feel that the Emperor will need to choose a new Warmaster very quickly if the Great Crusade is to continue." - page 411.

And yes, Perturabo obviously wasn't going to choose the new Warmaster, but if Jonson had the backing and support of a few Primarchs, the Emperor would be much more likely to support Jonson as the best choice for Warmaster.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

That is not arrogance. Arrogance would be the automatic assumption that he had the support. That was ambition. He asked for his help.... well bought it really but he still didn't act entirely out of arrogance but I you would have a strong case for saying that he did. However, I was saying that the reason he didn't see that Perturbo was a traitor was because he just couldn't read people, not that he was blinded by his arrogance.

Maybe this would a discussion for the fluff thread though? This isn't exactly a review. Lol


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> That is not arrogance. Arrogance would be the automatic assumption that he had the support. That was ambition. He asked for his help.... well bought it really but he still didn't act entirely out of arrogance but I you would have a strong case for saying that he did. However, I was saying that the reason he didn't see that Perturbo was a traitor was because he just couldn't read people, not that he was blinded by his arrogance.


So the Lion should have been able to read minds now? Although it was an uncertain time and no brother Primarch should have truly been trusted, there was no reason at all to have suspected Perturabo as having betrayed the Imperium. Its a recurring theme throughout the book that the Lion seems unable to guess at the emotions of men, or realistically conclude how they would react. But that is generally in terms of his treatment of Luther, rather than the ending with Perturabo.

(From Oxford Reference Online): Arrogance = "having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities"

It is the Lion's arrogance, in thinking that he would have made the best Warmaster, that led him to give the Siege Weapons to Perturabo (in return for his support). Thus it is because of the Lion's arrogance that Horus gained the weapons he needed to bring down the Imperial Palace.



gen.ahab said:


> Arrogance would be the automatic assumption that he had the support.


Not necessarily. The Lion believed that the only reason Horus was chosen as Warmaster was because he was the first discovered and thus grew the closest to the Emperor. The Lion also believed from the start that Horus was not the best choice for Warmaster, he believed he was. Its implied that the Lion thought the Emperor disregarded him simply because Horus was the first discovered. It was the Lion's arrogance, in believing that he was the best choice that led to him trying to garner support from his brother Primarchs, which whilst trying to gain Perturabo's support obviously ended up in a terrible and regrettable bargain.

After all if the Emperor had made the wrong choice once (with Horus), the Lion had to ensure he made the right choice the second time around. And what made that more likely was by gaining the backing of several of his brother Primarchs.


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

See that is where we differ.... I don't believe the Lions abilities were exaggerated. He had every right to what pride he did have and he probably was the best choice for warmaster if the warmaster was simply a military command position and if that was all that the job entailed. Also, it is not as though those same sentiments were not shared by a large number of his brothers. 

It seemed to me that during their little dialog there were several hints but I suppose you are right .


----------



## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

I think we can all agree there was some arrogance in the lion, but rightly so, his war victories were second to none.

We also see in horus rising that the lion was beginning to get used to the idea that horus was war master when he called horus to meet with him to help out in a battle. Even Horus says himself that this is the first contact from the lion and it looks like my brother is beginning to warm to the idea of me being warmaster. It can only be good for the crusade and he makes arrangements to meet him after Davin. Which unfortunately never happens. I can get page numbers if uyou like?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> See that is where we differ.... I don't believe the Lions abilities were exaggerated. He had every right to what pride he did have and he probably was the best choice for warmaster if the warmaster was simply a military command position and if that was all that the job entailed.


Yes the Lion was a mighty warrior and great tactician, he was a Primarch after all. But that was not the point of the role of Warmaster, it was so much more than that, and that is where his arrogance comes in. He believes he would have been the best Warmaster without a shadow of a doubt, even though I think its safe to say he wouldn't have made the best Warmaster.



gen.ahab said:


> Also, it is not as though those same sentiments were not shared by a large number of his brothers.


A few maybe, but as far as we know they didn't actively seek to suplant Horus' title once the Heresy began - which the Lion tried to do, and which had disastrous consequences.



FORTHELION said:


> I think we can all agree there was some arrogance in the lion, but rightly so, his war victories were second to none.


Well, if you mean tally of victories then depending on what source your going on he was actually more like 3rd or 4th. 

But as I said above, yes he may have had a right to be arrogant, its a all too human flaw after all which we know the Primarchs inhibited. But I think we can safetly say that he wouldn't have made a very good Warmaster, and its his misplaced arrogance that he thought he would have that led to Horus' rebellion gaining massive assets.



FORTHELION said:


> We also see in horus rising that the lion was beginning to get used to the idea that horus was war master when he called horus to meet with him to help out in a battle. Even Horus says himself that this is the first contact from the lion and it looks like my brother is beginning to warm to the idea of me being warmaster. It can only be good for the crusade and he makes arrangements to meet him after Davin. Which unfortunately never happens. I can get page numbers if uyou like?


I don't remember that, page numbers would be great if you could please - wouldn't mind checking that out.

But my point still stands, even if the Lion became more accepting with Horus being Warmaster, he still utterly believed he should have been and should be Warmaster, for the apparent good of the Imperium as seen in _Fallen Angels_.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I don't remember that, page numbers would be great if you could please - wouldn't mind checking that out.
> 
> But my point still stands, even if the Lion became more accepting with Horus being Warmaster, he still utterly believed he should have been and should be Warmaster, for the apparent good of the Imperium as seen in _Fallen Angels_.


Horus Rising, Page 369


> One, the Lion, had never made such an approach before, and it was a sign of a welcome thawing in relations, one that Horus could not afford to overlook.


----------



## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

well done baron you beat me to it


----------



## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Wasn't the lions legion considerably smaller than either the Luna Wolves or the wonder smurfs? 

In any case I am aware that that was not all that the warmaster did, as I said he would have been the best choice for a commander of the armed forces but I don't think he would have been the best leader. The lion isn't a figure head, that belongs to Horus or Sanguinius( sorry for poor spelling.)


----------



## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

The wonder smurfs had a huge legion because didnt they control a region of space themselves?

Didnt Horus himself admit that Sanguinius should have been warmaster?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Horus Rising, Page 369


Thanks for that Baron, but my general point still stands 



gen.ahab said:


> Wasn't the lions legion considerably smaller than either the Luna Wolves or the wonder smurfs?


Im not aware that any source has ever noted the First Legion as being smaller (or larger for that matter) than the Luna Wolves. Although the Ultramarines are consistently noted as being the largest Legion, so would have consisted of more Astartes than the Dark Angels.



gen.ahab said:


> In any case I am aware that that was not all that the warmaster did, as I said he would have been the best choice for a commander of the armed forces but I don't think he would have been the best leader. The lion isn't a figure head, that belongs to Horus or Sanguinius( sorry for poor spelling.)


Yeah I know you were aware of it, I just pointed out that it was a moot fact. The Lion may well have made a good Warmaster if the position solely entailed being a war leader, but thats not only what the role involved. So all in all it was the Lion's misplaced arrogance that enabled Horus to gain several incredibly powerful assets.



World Eater XII said:


> The wonder smurfs had a huge legion because didnt they control a region of space themselves?


Generally yes. Its because they kept the organisation and efficiency of the Ultramar Empire as incredible levels, meaning they could draw recruits from multiple worlds with relative ease.




World Eater XII said:


> Didnt Horus himself admit that Sanguinius should have been warmaster?


He didn't admit it because there was nothing to admit. He briefly mused on the subject, because he saw himself as a failure as Warmaster.


----------



## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

****Might contain spoilers****


Horus Rising, False Gods and Galaxy in Flames: What I would like to call the original trilogy. Even though I love Dan Abnett, I had hard a time to understand the beginning of the book and when I read later novels in the series I noticed I missed a shit load of stuff, such as Erebus arrival and things just like it. But then I have to keep in mind that Horus Rising was the absolut first novel I read from the BL. What I like about the original trilogy is how you slowly see the fall into Chaos. I have recently re-read Horus Rising and will read the other two as well to get a better opinion but this how I think so far. I would give them 7/10 over these three.

Flight of the Eisenstein, I love the character Nathaniel Garro and as well the continuing after the Isvaan III bombings and actually some kind of "happy ending". 8/10.

Fulgrim, is my absolut favorite HH-novel and is still unbeaten. How everything just goes wrong, how Slaanesh corruption destroys so many lives in brutal ways (yes it is like this for all legions but here you get more detailed) and how you sse Fulgrim regretting what he had done, the only kind you would ever see. 9/10.

Descent of Angels, is was half decent, if it hadn't been for the character I wouldnt have liked it I guess. The ending however when they are Space Marines kinda feels like he ran out of ideas and had to add it to the story. However the story was made for better sequal (which I will come back for later. 6/10.

Battle for the Abyss, I liked it somewhat, the downside is it felt already from the start it would be a stand alone novel (just like Legion and Mechanicum are at the moment). Like you know the ending will serve a purpose but at the cost of characters, like you know neither of them will survie and the story ends there. 6/10.

Mechanicum, this book is simply boring and I didnt like it all, except for the short moment of the girl who became the guardian, the presence of Rogal Dorn. 4/10.

Tales of Heresy, Im not the person who likes short stories; its like Stephen Kings short story movies. You know it will be short, the characters will die before you feel anything for them but I however liked the shorts stories if they had been longer for character development. The arguments between the priest and the Emperor truly gives you some eyeopeners to think about. 7/10

Fallen Angels: I like it and cant wait for the follow up in future stories about the DA, dont have much if anything to complain about. 8/10.

A Thousand Sons, much like Tales of Heresy, it gives some eyeopeners to thikn about but it felt like it brought along too many unimportant events and those that mattered and was highly anticipated was shortened down, but still good novel. 8/10.


----------

