# Thoughts on Emperor's Execution(S) - Aurelian Spoilers



## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

So from the new book Aurelian it sheds more light on the ideas brought up in First Heretic, primarily that being that the Emperor created each primarch with a specific role to play. The role of executioner was alluded to being Russ in First Heretic...however seeing as there are only 9-10 positions and 18 primarchs I originally postulated that the Emperor created two primarchs per position, perhaps one as a back up or fail safe.

However now in Aurelian when Lorgar speaks with a daemon of the warp, fate weaver I believe it was he goes on to state that in a alternate time line due to Lorgar becoming to saturated in warp magicks, that the Emperor sent his two executioners upon Lorgar. The two Executioners were named as Russ, and Conrad Kurze, of which they ripped out Lorgar's heart and obliterated his legion down to the last man, to leave none alive.

So what do you think of these events? I find it interesting that Curze would be the Emperor's Executioner...makes sense to me, with the whole Night haunter persona.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

It seems pretty logical to me. Curze has always been about justice it just seems as though the brutality of Nostramo caused him to turn more towards broad-strokes justice through pre-emptive violence over more individualized, reactionary execution.

Also, having said that. There is very, very little about the Space Wolves or Russ that suggests they would be executioners. Aside from their rapid loyalty and ability to unleash brutality, neither of which are unique to them.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

I agree that there were back up roles. Both the night lords and the Space wolves in the books seem to believe they are doing the work that other Legions look down on or don't have the stomach to do. There seems to be two for every role as you said. (Dorn / Perturbo) (Curze / Russ). In Prospero Burns the Wolves identify themselves as his executioners and in The Dark King and Night Lord novels, Curze feels he is a punisher of the wicked. But it was also funny to read that Lorgar could have died if he stepped between Russ and Magnus. Those chaos gods and their riddles.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> It seems pretty logical to me. Curze has always been about justice it just seems as though the brutality of Nostramo caused him to turn more towards broad-strokes justice through pre-emptive violence over more individualized, reactionary execution.
> 
> Also, having said that. There is very, very little about the Space Wolves or Russ that suggests they would be executioners. Aside from their rapid loyalty and ability to unleash brutality, neither of which are unique to them.


You mean besides the Wolves themselves saying it?

From "Prospero Burns":

"'When the Allfather sired his pups,' said the priest, 'He gave each one a different wyrd. Each one a different life to make..."

"So what is the Wolf King's wyrd...?"

"'Executioner', replied the old Wolf."

Pretty straight forward, me thinks.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

hailene said:


> You mean besides the Wolves themselves saying it?
> 
> From "Prospero Burns":
> 
> ...


Yeah, because you know, superstitious barbarians are always the best source for info on how a god designed his galaxy conquering machines . 

I realize that the wolves think they are the Emperor's executioners. That doesn't necessarily make it true. Heresy I know, but the wolves don't know everything.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

But then again it was said by the Daemon in Aurelian that Curze AND Russ were the executioners. So maybe those pups know what they are sayin.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Perhaps I should restate my position. 

I am not denying that the Space Wolves are the Emperor's executioners. It has been fairly clearly stated to that effect.

What I am saying is the following. Aside from two characters (neither of whom is completely trustworthy) directly stating this their is no evidence of this being their designed role. In other words: the behaviour and mindset of the Space Wolves do not suggest that they were designed for this role.

Think of it this way. If it weren't for those two quotes, would the Space Wolves be considered to be the Emperor's designed executioners? Probably not.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Yeah, because you know, superstitious barbarians are always the best source for info on how a god designed his galaxy conquering machines .
> 
> I realize that the wolves think they are the Emperor's executioners. That doesn't necessarily make it true. Heresy I know, but the wolves don't know everything.


I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't read "Prospero Burns", since the major lynchpin of the the book was how the Wolves weren't a bunch of barbarians.

I don't have the book on hand at the moment, but I want to say Russ also said something along similar lines. I'll get back to you tonight on the quote.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

hailene said:


> I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't read "Prospero Burns", since the major lynchpin of the the book was how the Wolves weren't a bunch of barbarians.


While I haven't yet read it, I am familiar with the Wolves characterization in it. Suffice to say, and I mean this in the least hate filled way possible, I don't buy it. Dress it up all you like, the simple fact is that the Wolves are barbarians. Not stupid, not predictable, but barbarians. 

They call it an act, that's good for them. It still doesn't change the facts. Plenty of other Legions have used the 'playing a role' defence as well. The only difference between them is that the others get called out on their bs.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> While I haven't yet read it, I am familiar with the Wolves characterization in it. Suffice to say, and I mean this in the least hate filled way possible, I don't buy it. Dress it up all you like, the simple fact is that the Wolves are barbarians. Not stupid, not predictable, but barbarians.
> 
> They call it an act, that's good for them. It still doesn't change the facts. Plenty of other Legions have used the 'playing a role' defence as well. The only difference between them is that the others get called out on their bs.


Again, the entire novel is about a mortal going to the Wolves and understanding how they tick. I suggest reading it. It's by Abnett, so it's a must have, anyway.


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

I so have to get Aurelian. The concept of roles for the Primarch's and subsequently, as highlighted by this topic, the back ups is an intriguing one. Do we even know what all the roles are?


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

The outcast dead, also reiterates, the Wolves are executioners motif. In regards to Magnus's little excursion to Terra.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

First heretic names off some of the positions....

Tactician, Spokesperson of the Emperor, intelligence gathering, vanguard (protector of the hearth), executioner, person to set up and command an expansion empire in the galactic fringe.

I don't recall the rest, however in Aurelian the daemon specifically states that in an alternate time line where Lorgar defied the emperor, the emperor set his two executioners on Lorgar to kill him and obliterate his legion...russ and curze.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

I know this is off topic ... so sorry, but its not worth a thread of its own.


I haven't gotten the book and am unlikely to, so could someone tell me about something I heard:

Apparently, in Aurelian Lorgor fights the Daemon Fulgrim and wins pretty handily.

Is that true? and if so what's that all about? Thanks.


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

Lux said:


> First heretic names off some of the positions....
> 
> Tactician, Spokesperson of the Emperor, intelligence gathering, vanguard (protector of the hearth), executioner, person to set up and command an expansion empire in the galactic fringe.
> 
> I don't recall the rest, however in Aurelian the daemon specifically states that in an alternate time line where Lorgar defied the emperor, the emperor set his two executioners on Lorgar to kill him and obliterate his legion...russ and curze.


Time to re-read First Heretic. You know when you get so into a book and need to know more of it so much that you don't take it all in? Guilty.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Emperors Mercy said:


> But then again it was said by the Daemon in Aurelian that Curze AND Russ were the executioners. So maybe those pups know what they are sayin.


It doesn't say that at all. It merely states that in one plausable future Lorgar was killed by Curze and Russ for defying the Emperor.

The exact wording is: _"...In yet another, you defied the Anathema - the creature you name the Emperor, falsely considering it to be human - and you were executed by your brothers Curze and Russ..."_

That is it. This doesn't suggest at all that Curze was an intended executioner, we don't know the specifics of that possible future so it could have simply been the case that Russ needed support to take down the Word Bearers and Curze was the only Primarch on hand to supply it. Who knows.

What I find more interesting is Ingethel referring to the Emperor as a _"creature"_ and an _"it"_, whilst also claiming the Emperor is _"falsely considered human"_...


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

D-A-C said:


> I know this is off topic ... so sorry, but its not worth a thread of its own.
> 
> 
> I haven't gotten the book and am unlikely to, so could someone tell me about something I heard:
> ...


Yup. One crack of his crozius takes him down, and he then 

exerts psychic abilities strong enough to make Horus act against his will, and make Magnus recoil from the power of his psychic presence. It seems that Lorgar's previously erratic powers were unlocked and enhanced after his pilgrimage into the warp.


He pretty much shoots to number one in the traitor primarch charts.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> It doesn't say that at all. It merely states that in one plausable future Lorgar was killed by Curze and Russ for defying the Emperor.
> 
> The exact wording is: _"...In yet another, you defied the Anathema - the creature you name the Emperor, falsely considering it to be human - and you were executed by your brothers Curze and Russ..."_
> 
> ...



That's true that maybe he needed the help but on the reverse side both legions and primarchs claim to do the jobs their brothers can't do: both are terror weapons and maybe play the executioner role. The Wolves are just vicious where as the Lords take the time to make examples. Both are great for showing their brothers are not above the Law. I suppose you're right because the Word Bearers were only outnumbered by one legion but then why would the emperor not send the Ultramarines to support him in the timeline. I suppose this is where we take it that there are so many different futures. 

And Ingethel might just be using those terms to dehumanize the situation. Keeping in mind Lorgar believed the Emperor to be a divine being but was rebuked for it. (not challenging your knowledge/I appreciate the depth you apply to your post) 'On the same token the Daemon might be tapping into that 'he claims he is human but he is like us A creature.' Maybe like he's no different from us, BUT we want you to worship us. Could it be that is why he showed him the avatar of Khaine could die. To prove a God can die. (Sorry i don't know how to do the click here method) 

Now one thing I find interesting is they call him the Anathema. The term could count him as one of them who was cast out or as simple as the hated one. I just thought that was interesting.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I have always liked the concept of the Emperor creating two legions for a certain purpose and a fail safe.


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## Lord Solar Terminus (Aug 6, 2009)

Lux said:


> I don't recall the rest, however in Aurelian the daemon specifically states that in an alternate time line where Lorgar defied the emperor, the emperor set his two executioners on Lorgar to kill him and obliterate his legion...russ and curze.


Yes, but did it say "executioners" or "Executioners"? The latter designates an official title and position, but if it was the former, then it seems those two were simply the ones that drew the short straw/would have the least amount of problems with killing a sibling (Russ was always picking fights, and Curze almost killed Dorn in a fit of pique). I would imagine any of the Emperor's sons could be executioners when called upon.

Russ's Legion being the executioners is frankly colossally stupid. They were sent against the only Legion smaller than theirs, had copious amounts of support from the Sisters of Silence and the Custodes, as well as every conceivable advantage Magnus could give them (no orbital defenses, no shields, no organized resistance, complete element of surprise, etc.), and they still were dying in droves until Tzeench decided it was time for the Sons' heads to start exploding. 

What the hell could Russ and his hounds do against Guilliman's Legion, for example?


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

Lord Solar Terminus said:


> Yes, but did it say "executioners" or "Executioners"? The latter designates an official title and position, but if it was the former, then it seems those two were simply the ones that drew the short straw/would have the least amount of problems with killing a sibling (Russ was always picking fights, and Curze almost killed Dorn in a fit of pique). I would imagine any of the Emperor's sons could be executioners when called upon.
> 
> Russ's Legion being the executioners is frankly colossally stupid. They were sent against the only Legion smaller than theirs, had copious amounts of support from the Sisters of Silence and the Custodes, as well as every conceivable advantage Magnus could give them (no orbital defenses, no shields, no organized resistance, complete element of surprise, etc.), and they still were dying in droves until Tzeench decided it was time for the Sons' heads to start exploding.
> 
> What the hell could Russ and his hounds do against Guilliman's Legion, for example?



The First part I will check on that is an interesting concept. I never thought of it. But Russ and his wolves probably would have been grouped again with another legion to take out the Ultramarines. You never send your killers unprepared but still it's more of the idea that the SW would tear stuff up and the NL literally skin people and wear it. Guilliman was also tied up by a legion smaller than his during the HH (the Word Bearers were second in size from what I read) But Who knows maybe the Wolves aren't executioners. I still think Guilliman would have his britches full with the wolves coming to. 


But never eliminate the idea of them not being over run. Like the Short Story rules of engagement: Guilliman doesn't rule out loss himself, just preparedness.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> He pretty much shoots to number one in the traitor primarch charts.


I wouldn't go so far as to say that. Magnus is still without a doubt a more powerful psyker than Lorgar, you have to remember Magnus was projecting himself over a very large distance and was already noted to be using a great deal of his power to do so. I'm still fairly confident Magnus would crush Lorgar to a pulp in a psychic duel face to face


And though its already been pointed out, the Outcast Dead also makes note that the Wolves are the Emperors executioners.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

I will agree that there is little sense in one of the smallest legions being the designated executioners. Also, after reading _The Outcast Dead_, and the descriptions of the WE characters in combat being berzerkers, but controlled and focussed, which was supposed to be the SW way. Basically they seem very similar. 

Another thing that struck me was how would a member of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica know that the SWs were executioners, as Gregorias does in TOD when he says the wolves will be unleashed again after Magnus appears to the Emporer. No matter how highly ranked, something like a SM legion being wiped out by the Emperor's own forces would not be common knowledge even on Terra.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

I suppose it can break down to methods of madness. WE are beserkers or more like Eversor assassins. They have minimal thought process and cannot be controlled once the lust has taken over. I see SW kinda like a guard dog. When you call it back, it will stop. Maybe the titles weren't necessarily given for the astartes on astartes action but that's a thought. I was wondering where you guys get your legion counts from. I cannot find more than what they reference in the BL books.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

The man deals with ALL communications that come through Terra, always looking for the hidden patterns etc, it would be hard for him not to find out that the Space Wolves had been used to execute at least one of the other legions.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> I will agree that there is little sense in one of the smallest legions being the designated executioners. Also, after reading _The Outcast Dead_, and the descriptions of the WE characters in combat being berzerkers, but controlled and focussed, which was supposed to be the SW way. Basically they seem very similar.


"Propero Burns" goes into why the SWs are, at least amongst themselves, considered the Emperor's Executioners. I don't have the book on hand, but basically it's first their extreme loyalty to the Emperor and a willingness to do anything for Him--even killing a fellow Primarch. 

While the WEs might possess the second trait, I don't think they have the first trait in spades. Angron would be killing because that's what he enjoys, not necessarily because the Emperor willed it.

Also in "Prospero Burns" it doesn't describe the SWs as beserkers. They don't mentally black out like how even pre-Heresy WEs did. They're clinical in their actions, and the main character in "Prospero Burns" comments how the Space Wolves make split second decisions that seem to be on a whim, but are actually just very quickly thought out ideas by their post-human minds.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

First of all I know most won't agree with this but Leman Russ can contend with Roboute Gulliman. Conrad Kurze even when he was in and out of sanity was a tactical genius in my opinion. Both of these primarchs displayed a quality I think a lot of the other primarchs didn't realize. When it came to Russ and Curze they made you think exactly what they wanted you to think. Being able to control an opponents perception of you and what you are capable of is huge. Both these primarchs excelled at it. For that reason I think they are both the perfect choice for executioners. How can you stop the unknown? Oh and for my part, one on one, both Kurze and Russ would own Roboute Gulliman like an eastern european sex slave.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Was Leman Russ the Emperor's Executioner? Yes. Did the Emperor have specific roles pre-designed for each of his Primarch-sons? I seriously doubt it.

Here's what I _do_ think. It's quite obvious that, before the Heresy, the idea of a rebellion and especially the notion of intra-Legionary conflict were held as both contrary to the natural order of the Imperium and - at any rate- highly distasteful in the eyes of the Legions themselves. It thus stands to reason that a Legion who had to perform duties that _did_ fall under those categories would seek to justify them with concepts like "that being their wyrd". This, doubly so if they came from a society and culture that already upheld such ethos and motifs.

I'm sure, for instance, that the Spartans - assuming they really did throw sick babies from the cliffs - told themselves they did such bloody things for a higher reason as well.

Now, as for the Space Wolves being unfeasible as executioners because of their Legion's size?

Uhm, how about the idea that *the very reason* that they're a small Legion is because they already had to go through two other ones as well? :wink:

Cheers,
P.


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## mc wazzahamma (Jul 12, 2011)

My thoughts exactly, Phoebus. That, plus the rate of initiates turning Wulfen makes it difficult to keep numbers high.

Come to think of it, the Wulfen are more or less included in their battle on Prospero, so maybe we should count them as being amongst the legion's numbers? I wold also imagine, that despite their size, the SW would always be accompanied by a detachment of Custodes and other support. In this case especially, size doesn't matter.

There's also ADB's in-universe musings from Sevetar and Kharn as to why their legions aren't appointed as the executioners. If anyone is interested, I can post them here.

As for whether or not the Emperor specifically designed his primarchs (and by extension Legions) with predestined roles in mind...Deliverance Lost seems to shed further light on this.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Traditionally special mission units in the military are always naturally smaller than conventional forces. The missions,training,and selections being above normal standards keep their forces low throw attrition,injury,and death. The Wolves and the Night Lords compared to more orderly legions like the ultramarines in my opinion would fit this category. They both wage psychological warfare with equal tenacity as physical warfare just like special operation units. They engage and make a foe feal like they are facing a horror or a berserker,when in truth it's a force of focus and precision. The ultramarines are like the Marine corps. You wouldn't task them with a mission suitied for the space wolves or the night lords,because they are more of a standing force.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

It's already been determined by Dan Abnett that the reason why the Emperor would allow such a savage legion to exist is to take down another legion. 

I do believe, some astartes are just better at hacking down astartes than others. When I read about that World Eater Sergeant who had no armor on and literally beat the living shit out of the armored custodes with his bear hands, it really gave me a good example about what damage an astartes can cause when he is in blindless lust.

We have an example of them in a short story where the Ultramarines feared the mindlessness of the world eaters. Despite the Ultramarines more than doubling every other legion, they would still being fearful of the World Eaters in simulation, shows that the mindless astartes are the most dangerous.

It brings up the Wolves of Fenris. These guys I believe are even more dangerous, due to their ability to plan and attack coherently as well as lose their human mind when in the battle. They are savage and they are flawed. This flaw though, in close combat makes them even more dangerous. Those of you who have read _Battle of the Fang,_ know what I'm talking about. The Mark of the Wolfen. 

Due to these legions examples I would becareful to judge a legion only due to their number. Their was a reason why the Ultramarines where simulating against different legions. If I remember correctly they even used their simulations against the Salamanders legions, who I believe are even a smaller legion by a bigger margin than the Wolves of Fenris.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> Traditionally special mission units in the military are always naturally smaller than conventional forces.





> The missions,training,and selections being above normal standards keep their forces low throw attrition,injury,and death.


That's not the reason why they're small(er), though.

"Special mission units", whether they be US Army Special Forces A-Teams, Navy SEAL teams, UK SAS detachments, etc., aren't meant to take on large conventional forces. Their limited size is a direct correlation to their specific, specialized, and typically clandestine scope.

By no means is their size and order of battle allowed to be compromised by casualties once a mission is over with.



> The Wolves and the Night Lords compared to more orderly legions like the ultramarines in my opinion would fit this category. They both wage psychological warfare with equal tenacity as physical warfare ...


I strongly disagree. The Night Lords specifically use terror-tactics to adversely affect the morale and capability of their foes as part of their campaign. The Space Wolves of the Crusade era did not do this. You can't mistake the concept of overwhelming force and devastation as being the same as psychological warfare. What the Night Lords do is part of a calculated skill-set. What the Space Wolves achieve via their force is a side-effect/



> ... just like special operation units.


Sorry, but this just strikes me as too broad, too generic a statement. Special Operations units traditionally neither seek to terrorize people as part of their skill-set nor do they attempt to wholesale crush the enemy with overwhelming force.

The units you refer to are defined by the specificity of their task: to train locals into an effective guerilla force; to provide reconnaissance and intelligence; to kill a specific person; to free a set of hostages.

By contrast, the Night Lords and the Space Wolves were strategic forces designed for brutal, out-and-out conventional warfare. Along the way, though, the caveat of the Primarch was introduced. Before Konrad Curze was a general, he was a terrorist vigilante. He decided terror-tactics were a viable means of waging war and used accordingly. Similarly, Leman Russ introduced his own ethos into the way his Legion fought.

Along the way, two Primarchs went bad. The Emperor felt the need to remove them. We don't know how many of his Primarchs he had at either point of time, but we know he had Russ. Russ' hallmarks included utter loyalty, ruthlessness, and a surprising degree of control. That's a damn good combination when you're looking for someone to put down your own.

And incidentally, that's a combination Curze would seem to lack. Who knows, though? I could be wrong. It could be that Curze was much more in control of himself at the onset of his career. 

Cheers,
P.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> Traditionally special mission units in the military are always naturally smaller than conventional forces.


This is why Space Marine Legions are smaller than IG Regiments. To suggest that the smaller Legions are somehow 'more elite' than the others is pretty much rediculous. The Ultramarines are larger because they have a larger and more stable recruiting base, not because they place less focus on training or are otherwise less badass than the Wolves.



> You wouldn't task them with a mission suitied for the space wolves or the night lords,because they are more of a standing force.


Throughout the Great Crusade Legions were tasked with a wide variety of tasks, dependent almost exclusively on location. Each Legion tended to approach there tasks the same (when all you have is a hammer) but it was rare for Legions to be tasked specifically. This is especially true of 'all-arounder' Legions like the Ultramarines. The Ultramarines are not a standing army, they are conqueors.



ckcrawford said:


> It's already been determined by Dan Abnett that the reason why the Emperor would allow such a savage legion to exist is to take down another legion.


What? Numerous Legions were noted to be just as savage, if not more so, than the Space Wolves (WE, NL, Luna Wolves, BA, etc). Most of these Legions are not Executioners and most of them were not intentionally deployed against other Legions (before the Heresy). Savagery was a necessary aspect of the Marines purpose, the Emperor would be highly unlikely to limit it (indeed he basically reems out the Word Bearers for not being savage enough). 



> We have an example of them in a short story where the Ultramarines feared the mindlessness of the world eaters. Despite the Ultramarines more than doubling every other legion, they would still being fearful of the World Eaters in simulation, shows that the mindless astartes are the most dangerous.


The Ultramarines never specify a fear of the WE. They are conserned about losing the planet, but that's more due to the flow of battle than the nature of the enemy. 



> Due to these legions examples I would becareful to judge a legion only due to their number. Their was a reason why the Ultramarines where simulating against different legions.


The fact they made simulations against the WE is hardly proof of fear as they had simulations for numerous types of foes. The entire point of that story was to show us that the Ultramarines prepare for everything.

Plus in their simulations the Ultramarines successfully defeat every foe except the Luna Wolves, a foe who are more numerous, arguably as savage and more tactically flexible. They easily manipulate and defeat the WE using their own savagery against them in a manner that I do not believe the Wolves would be able to thwart.



Phoebus said:


> Russ' hallmarks included utter loyalty, ruthlessness, and a surprising degree of control. That's a damn good combination when you're looking for someone to put down your own.
> 
> And incidentally, that's a combination Curze would seem to lack. Who knows, though? I could be wrong. It could be that Curze was much more in control of himself at the onset of his career.


In _Lord of the Night_ Zso believes that Curze was very much focused, ruthless and controlled. There also seems to be a definite trend towards Night Haunter becoming increasingly unstable and violent as the Crusade progresses and he grows more fed up with the Emperor which suggests that initially he would have been better able to control himself. This is also logically supported by the fact that Night Haunter didn't just cow the populace of an entire planet but also took over and ruled quite effectively.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> What? Numerous Legions were noted to be just as savage, if not more so, than the Space Wolves (WE, NL, Luna Wolves, BA, etc). Most of these Legions are not Executioners and most of them were not intentionally deployed against other Legions (before the Heresy). Savagery was a necessary aspect of the Marines purpose, the Emperor would be highly unlikely to limit it (indeed he basically reems out the Word Bearers for not being savage enough).



I don't think any legion has even been stated as being more savage than the Wolves of Fenris, by any author. My source comes from Dan Abnett's own voice on the novel _Prospero Burns_ which you can find on youtube.




MEQinc said:


> The Ultramarines never specify a fear of the WE. They are conserned about losing the planet, but that's more due to the flow of battle than the nature of the enemy.



I suggest you reread that part. It is noted that their growing fear about imploying the codex was that if their was a legion that would destroy the structure of the codex deployment, it would have been the World Eaters. In fact, it was the only simulation, in which some of the Ultramarines captains had to be relieved of their duties due to their refusal to accept some of those orders.




MEQinc said:


> The fact they made simulations against the WE is hardly proof of fear as they had simulations for numerous types of foes. The entire point of that story was to show us that the Ultramarines prepare for everything.


Was it? They did lose to the Luna Wolves as you state. There was a lot to the story than just the invention of their codex. Including Guilliman's plans after the Heresy and also Guilliman's confession that the codex wasn't perfect. Also the reason why the Luna Wolves were able to beat the Ultramarines.




MEQinc said:


> Plus in their simulations the Ultramarines successfully defeat every foe except the Luna Wolves, a foe who are more numerous, arguably as savage and more tactically flexible. They easily manipulate and defeat the WE using their own savagery against them in a manner that I do not believe the Wolves would be able to thwart.


I think your use of "savagery" in this part doesn't give the word its true meaning. The Ultramarines sacrificed some of their units (which some of the captains did not like) in order to direct the World Eater's savagery minimally towards sacrificial and non-crucial Ultramarines units. While having the rest of the Ultramarines force basically encricling the World Eaters and obliterating them. They are being tactful and actually logical on their approach to fighting this simulation. Which actually may seem cold. But not savage.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> I will agree that there is little sense in one of the smallest legions being the designated executioners. Also, after reading _The Outcast Dead_, and the descriptions of the WE characters in combat being berzerkers, but controlled and focussed, which was supposed to be the SW way. Basically they seem very similar.


Individually, World Eaters are focussed and disciplined. They have to be to keep their rage in check (not helped by the _Butcher's Nails_). Otherwise they would constantly be butchering everyone in sight and would not function as a Legion.

The _Vlka Fenryka_ on the other hand are completely tamed. They strictly obey each order to the letter and never overstep their bounds. They are vicious and feral, and would commit any crime or insane act if it was the Emperor's will - but they can be reigned in. The World Eaters (and to an extent the Night Lords slot into this category as well) cannot. They are a weapon to be unleashed, pointed in a general direction and then let loose. They will not stop until everything in their path is obliterated. Horus uses Angron in this manner in the Heresy series as an example. This is the difference, and why the World Eaters would generally not function as a suitable executioner Legion - because they cannot be trusted.



Khorne's Fist said:


> Another thing that struck me was how would a member of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica know that the SWs were executioners, as Gregorias does in TOD when he says the wolves will be unleashed again after Magnus appears to the Emporer. No matter how highly ranked, something like a SM legion being wiped out by the Emperor's own forces would not be common knowledge even on Terra.


It seems to have been mentioned in a very off-hand manner though. Similar to how the Word Bearers mention the rumour of the XIII Legion absorbing the remnants of the II and XI in _The First Heretic_. I would take it as such, a rumour (at least from the perspective of _The Outcast Dead_).


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I don't think any legion has even been stated as being more savage than the Wolves of Fenris, by any author.


Perhaps not by an author but I'm pretty much positive that the World Eaters are referred to by characters as the most savage and brutal of the legions. Further, just look at the evidence. Nothing that the Wolves do goes beyond what other Legions (specifically those I mentioned) have been demonstrated as doing. Indeed the Wolves actions fall short of the demonstrated savagery of the WE and NL.



> In fact, it was the only simulation, in which some of the Ultramarines captains had to be relieved of their duties due to their refusal to accept some of those orders.


Because they refused to follow orders that were counter intuitive. The strategy employed in this simulation initally spread the Ultramarine units out and appeared to be stranding them in the face of superior enemy numbers. They do not seem additionally concerned that it is WE outnumbering them, just that they are being outnumber and slaughtered.



> I think your use of "savagery" in this part doesn't give the word its true meaning.


You misunderstand me. I wasn't saying the Ultramarines were savage I was saying that the strategy they employed was designed to redirect and out manouver the WE by manipulating the WE's own savagery and bloodlust.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Perhaps not by an author but I'm pretty much positive that the World Eaters are referred to by characters as the most savage and brutal of the legions. Further, just look at the evidence. Nothing that the Wolves do goes beyond what other Legions (specifically those I mentioned) have been demonstrated as doing. Indeed the Wolves actions fall short of the demonstrated savagery of the WE and NL.


I think thats the problem with explaining the World Eaters. The World Eaters, their savagery, and their rage, is explainable. As we find out in Outcast Dead, not all World Eaters had the "butcher's nails." The reason for their rage and savagery can be explained. The Wolves of Fenris however, cannot. It's a genetic mutation which we assume if because of Fenris and its association to the warp storms. The "warp" and its changes are unexplainable.




MEQinc said:


> Because they refused to follow orders that were counter intuitive. The strategy employed in this simulation initally spread the Ultramarine units out and appeared to be stranding them in the face of superior enemy numbers. They do not seem additionally concerned that it is WE outnumbering them, just that they are being outnumber and slaughtered.


Which is what I actually mean. The thing is the World Eaters were focusing their rage and attacking only certain elements of the Ultramarines force. With the Ultramarine force everywhere, the World Eaters were destroyed utterly. However, this required the World Eaters to focus their hate on certain units. Which I'm afraid destroyed them utterly. This style of fighting is disturbing, and you use the word (counter intuitive) to sacrifice parts of your force to in order to win. 

These captains didn't lose their positions simply because this was a simulation and it was just not worth doing what they were ordered to. I mean, they lost their position within their legion (which would be held as a high honor). The assumption must be that what ever was "counter intuitive" was completely absurd and more disturbing than losing position in their legion. Which I imagine would be the sacrificing of their forces (which in itself is a big disgrace). 

And I didn't mean the World Eaters had a bigger force, but a force that could not be dealt with by normal astartes to astartes means. World Eaters have what we now call "the butcher's nails" which literally fuels these warriors to fight and butcher more efficiently and ignore injury. 



MEQinc said:


> You misunderstand me. I wasn't saying the Ultramarines were savage I was saying that the strategy they employed was designed to redirect and out manouver the WE by manipulating the WE's own savagery and bloodlust.


This I completely agree with.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I think thats the problem with explaining the World Eaters. The World Eaters, their savagery, and their rage, is explainable. As we find out in Outcast Dead, not all World Eaters had the "butcher's nails." The reason for their rage and savagery can be explained. The Wolves of Fenris however, cannot. It's a genetic mutation which we assume if because of Fenris and its association to the warp storms. The "warp" and its changes are unexplainable.


I'm sorry but I don't understand your point. It doesn't matter the source of the savagery, all that matters, to me at least, is that other legions are equally, if not more, savage as the SW.



> The thing is the World Eaters were focusing their rage and attacking only certain elements of the Ultramarines force.


There's no evidence of this occuring. The simulation has the Ultramarines being beaten back on all fronts. The WE are literally overrunning every position, not simply attacking specific elements.



> The assumption must be that what ever was "counter intuitive" was completely absurd and more disturbing than losing position in their legion. Which I imagine would be the sacrificing of their forces (which in itself is a big disgrace).


Precisely. They were horrified that they were being forced to give orders that they believed would result solely in the death of their men and the loss of the world. They are not objecting because of the nature of the enemy but rather the nature of their own tactics.



> And I didn't mean the World Eaters had a bigger force, but a force that could not be dealt with by normal astartes to astartes means.


And I didn't mean to suggest that the WE had a bigger force. What I meant was: the Ultramarines are concerned that they are lossing. They are not concerned (seperately) that they are fighting WE. It doesn't appear to matter to them who the foe is, simply that the battle is not going well.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

I officially don't believe them to be titles. As a previous poster asked: was the executioners a title or just a word? With a capital E it can become a title. However it is a lower case e. This seems to say for that crime these two legions were sent. 

And if i remember right, Horus sent the Wolves to Prospero with the Emps blessing as Warmaster.

And can someone please tell me where you found legion sizes beyond references. If we are going to say what is said it the books are all rumors then they are all rumors. I'd like a more solid base on what these legion sizes are. I mean in Flight of the Raven, Corax states he has a much smaller legion than his brothers because Deliverance couldn't cough up enough pax to bolster his terran forces.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I'm pretty sure if I said if the Emperor was a man someone would find a way to disagree with it so I'll let the spec ops analogy lie down. What other units besides the world eaters had anything close to the reputation of the Space Wolves or Night Lords? Who did what they did? I think after his meeting him for the first time the Emperor knew better than to expect Angrons complete loyalty. Russ's loyalty and Curze's sense of justice ensured they were perfect for this kind of work.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

As a legion, I'd still put the World Eaters as the most savage. They did butcher an entire planet's population in a single night once. Also, I think I remember some fluff stating (though I could be mistaken, it was a while ago) that they used to have competitions to see who could decapitate the most opponents during a battle.

I think that's a big difference between a legion like the World Eaters and a legion like the Rout. Even before falling to chaos, the World Eaters enjoyed slaughter, as opposed to the Wolves who were willing to do what was necessary, but did it in a colder, more detached and controlled manner.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> What other units besides the world eaters had anything close to the reputation of the Space Wolves or Night Lords? Who did what they did?


The Blood Angels had a pretty savage reputation. I think it's even been suggested that they and the WE were very similar pre-Primarch but that Angron introduced more wanton slaughter while Sanguinious brought a more controlling aspect.

The Luna Wolves are also often considered savage. The Emperor's Children refer to them as such as do the Ultramarines in their simulation. 

Even the very tame Legions like the Ultramarines were demonstratedly capable of acts that would be appallingly savage by modern standards.

Aside from fighting the Thousand Sons and possibly some other Legions, what have the Space Wolves done that no other Legion has? 



Emperors Mercy said:


> And can someone please tell me where you found legion sizes beyond references.


I believe _A Thousand Sons _comments on the small size of the Space Wolves (if not directly than they fact that they don't massively outnumber the Thousand Sons who are repeatedly noted to be a small legion is proof enough). The Ultramarines are noted to be the largest, and the Word Bearers the second in _The First Heretic_ and other sources. Beyond that I don't think anything is mentioned on the WE or NL.



> If we are going to say what is said it the books are all rumors then they are all rumors.


I think what CotE was trying to say was that things that are said by characters as rumours or gossip should not be taken as absoulute fact. Things said by characters as facts shouldn't even be taken as necessarily true but that's a different story.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> It seems to have been mentioned in a very off-hand manner though. Similar to how the Word Bearers mention the rumour of the XIII Legion absorbing the remnants of the II and XI in _The First Heretic_. I would take it as such, a rumour (at least from the perspective of _The Outcast Dead_).


I dunno, i think it seemed pretty certain that he knew what he was talking about. And again, he sees everything that comes through Terra, he would have seen all the messages sent between the Legions when they were sanctioned, seen who sanctioned them etc. Not unreasonable at all imo for him to know it was the Wolves who did it last time.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> what have the Space Wolves done that no other Legion has?


Taken down another Legion as it is rumored...?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I wouldn't even say rumoured anymore tbh


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Doelago said:


> Taken down another Legion as it is rumored...?


Did you miss the qualifier? 


MEQinc said:


> Aside from fighting the Thousand Sons and possibly some other Legions,


I was more looking for examples of savagery that go above and beyond the precident set by other Legions.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> The Luna Wolves are also often considered savage. The Emperor's Children refer to them as such as do the Ultramarines in their simulation.
> 
> Even the very tame Legions like the Ultramarines were demonstratedly capable of acts that would be appallingly savage by modern standards.
> 
> Aside from fighting the Thousand Sons and possibly some other Legions, what have the Space Wolves done that no other Legion has?


Do you know what the word savage means? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Yes, the other legions can act cruel and are extremely violent, but the Luna Wolves shouldn't be labeled as savage. Yes, they fit one part of the of savage, but they aren't exactly uncontrolled, so they are not really savage. They might have acted savagely at one point or another, but as a whole I believe that it might be a stretch to say that legion is "savage."

Yes, any legion has the capabilities to perform acts of immense brutality, but most don't use it as a main battle tactic. 

So, you want to know what the Rout does differently, other than what they actually do differently.......... right?



MEQinc said:


> I was more looking for examples of savagery that go above and beyond the precident set by other Legions.


Other than butchering their brothers and any civilians still left on the planet, right?

Oh, or that time after the siege of Terra when they cut through the Terran citizenry like a fat kid to chocolate cake.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

@MEQinc

Lol agreed. But that puts everything into hearsay the way CotE put it. 


Either way we have to remember the Thousand Sons had fleets still out on the loose during Russ's attack so they may have outnumbered the sons there even without back up.

Well the one thing the spaces wolves have done that other legions have not is they had one later founding and thats it. Otherwise I'd say in combat they almost have a viking nature. I think it come down to other legions can be looked at more civil. They have the gentleman streak in them. Otherwise everyone can be savage in warfare. All it takes is getting a little blood on your hands and a purpose.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Do you know what the word savage means? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


Dictionary.com gives "a fierce, brutal or cruel person" and "fierce, ferocious or cruel" as definitions, Google gives "brutal and severe". Those words sound like pretty accurate descriptions of most marines (not the cruel part, generally) and that's how I have been using the word savage. 



> Yes, any legion has the capabilities to perform acts of immense brutality, but most don't use it as a main battle tactic.


But several place an even heavier ephasis on it than the SW. The Night Lords and World Eaters being, as always, the prime examples of this.



> Other than butchering their brothers and any civilians still left on the planet, right?


Oh snap, because no legion has ever slaughtered civilians before. Forget about that time the World Eaters killed a planet in a night, or that the targetting of civilians was actually a prime tactic of the Night Lords, or Moncharia (sp?) where the _Ultramarines_ burned every single settlement (killing thousands at least) in what wasn't even technically an act of war. I could go on, but hopefully you get the point.

The fact is that the SW are savage but other Legions are equally savage and some are even more savage.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Dictionary.com gives "a fierce, brutal or cruel person" and "fierce, ferocious or cruel" as definitions, Google gives "brutal and severe". Those words sound like pretty accurate descriptions of most marines (not the cruel part, generally) and that's how I have been using the word savage.


My dictionary, the one installed one the apple crack devices, gives at as "violent and uncontrolled." I still wouldn't categorize most legions as savage. 



> But several place an even heavier ephasis on it than the SW. The Night Lords and World Eaters being, as always, the prime examples of this.


Did I ever mention the Night Lords or the World Eaters? 



> Oh snap, because no legion has ever slaughtered civilians before. Forget about that time the World Eaters killed a planet in a night, or that the targetting of civilians was actually a prime tactic of the Night Lords, or Moncharia (sp?) where the _Ultramarines_ burned every single settlement (killing thousands at least) in what wasn't even technically an act of war. I could go on, but hopefully you get the point.


Again, did I EVER mention the Night Lords in that post? Oh, or did I EVER say ANYTHING about the World Eaters? No, I said most legions wouldn't be considered as savage as the Rout. Even by the definition that is true. The Wolves are noted as having committed mass genocide of human populations on several occasions. 

In "Wolves at the Door" Bulveye was said to have ordered the execution of an entire planets population, one that they had just saved, because they refused to come into the fold. There was no second chance. There was no beating them into submission as most legions would have done. They were simply annihilated. 

In A Thousand Sons on the planet Shrike the wolves are noted to have butchered every living being that they came in contact with. 

In Prospero Burns, when Kasper was in the camp before the Wolves attacked the Machine based civilization, the entire camps population was terrified of them because just before that they had obliterated an entire planets populations. That includes civilians. 



> The fact is that the SW are savage but other Legions are equally savage and some are even more savage.


Other legions, being two. I would agree on that.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Russ will kill anyone for the Emperor including his brothers. I don't see Angron doing the same for the Emperor. Curze will kill anyone for.......Curze will kill anyone. Ask Rogal Dorn he'll confirm it. He learned the hard way that a fight with the Night Haunter isn't one you walk away from. Angron seems to be coming up here for reasons I can't understand. If you bothered to read his backstory you know that it's possible that if given an order he could,could I reiterate, basically be within his rights to tell the big E to go fuck himself. He never showed the fealty and for good reason if you look at it objectively that Russ did. I'm sure they are both capable of horror. But would Angron do it for the Emperor as quickly and motivated as Russ would? No, I don't believe so.

If you listened to Raven Flight you know that Corax theorizes that the one thing Horus could promise Angron was(go listen to it). I don't believe Russ ever felt anything but loyalty to the Emperor. Sure they butted heads sometimes as father and son will,but I don't think Angron truly ever looked at the Emperor with any level as respect or admiration. This is a long way for saying if your going to hire an executioner, you better trust him to do the job. Angron couldn't be trusted like Russ could. What about Curze you ask? The guy who destroyed his own planet out a sense of justice? Yeah I'm sure a guy like that is good to go for executing those who step out of line. Maybe not for a reason like Russ, but nothing is more important to the Night Haunter then establishing and maintaining law and order. That feature of his would've made him an excellent choice.


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## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

To further this, once the night haunter perceived that he had become a villain in the eyes of the empire he sacrificed so much to establish and protect, he allowed himself to be killed.


He followed his ideology to death.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Uhm, he did so after building a fortress _made out of people._

Konrad Curze/Night Haunter was a nutjob. Being a nutjob and being ideologically-driven are hardly mutually exclusive concepts. In fact, they often go hand-in-hand.


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## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Uhm, he did so after building a fortress _made out of people._
> 
> Konrad Curze/Night Haunter was a nutjob. Being a nutjob and being ideologically-driven are hardly mutually exclusive concepts. In fact, they often go hand-in-hand.


He may have been insane, but he was an insane destroyer loyal to the Emperor. He only rebelled after about 100th assassin was sent after him supposedly from the Emperor...I think it was malcador sending those assassins.

He was insane, cold, but he was utterly loyal to the Emperor, until the Emperor tried one to many hundreds of a time to kill him.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Jerushee said:


> He may have been insane, but he was an insane destroyer loyal to the Emperor. He only rebelled after about 100th assassin was sent after him supposedly from the Emperor...I think it was malcador sending those assassins.
> 
> He was insane, cold, but he was utterly loyal to the Emperor, until the Emperor tried one to many hundreds of a time to kill him.


A loyal, mad dog is still mad. It's going to end up biting you in the end and that's when you have to put it down.

Russ on the other hand was a finely trained dog that only attacked when ordered to. That's what made Russ and his sons the go-to Primarch.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

He only rebelled after that point, sure, but he was totally unreliable long before that. You don't just want ruthlessness for that job. You want control, as well.


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## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> He only rebelled after that point, sure, but he was totally unreliable long before that. You don't just want ruthlessness for that job. You want control, as well.


Some view Curze as wild uncontrolled, but he was in the top tier of focus and control in terms of primarchs. His entire philosophy was about Focus and clarity of mind, control of self by using fear as an internal motivator and conduit. Not to cause fear in others, but to use Fear to bring clarity to yourself and control of your actions.

Curze/night haunter was one of the most in control primarchs, I would say not to confuse sociopathic traits, with a lack of control.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> My dictionary, the one installed one the apple crack devices, gives at as "violent and uncontrolled." I still wouldn't categorize most legions as savage.


Well that explains the confusion then. I will agree that most Legions would not qualify as 'uncontrolled', including the SW if their claims are to be believed. Would you agree that most Legions could be described as 'fierce, brutal and severe'?



> Did I ever mention the Night Lords or the World Eaters?


Nope. I have however, repeatedly, because they are perfect examples that the SW are not the only Legion known/believed to be savage. Which is my entire point.



Phoebus said:


> He only rebelled after that point, sure, but he was totally unreliable long before that. You don't just want ruthlessness for that job. You want control, as well.


Seems to me like it doesn't take control to slaughter an entire planet.

Indeed Night Haunters tactics require far more control. It takes control to kill only enough people to make an example. It takes control to repeatedly unleash your inner monster and then repeatedly reign it in. It takes control to blind and cripple a target without killing it. The Night Lords show, in my opinion, far more control in exacting justice than the Woves do.

They are cruel, merciless monsters, but they are also controlled, focused and efficient.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

I'll agree the Night Lords show more control than the Space Wolves. I suppose the difference is with the Space Wolves being controlled weapons. I know it doesn't take much to destroy a planet and slaughter all it's people. But there was a story where the Space Wolves did go to a planet and help them win their freedom from Dark Eldar because they wanted compliance. After being the Eldar the leaders told them they didn't want to serve under anyone else and so the Space Wolves slaughtered them. 

The WE would just kill and kill and kill. In fact in Battle for the Abyss they start killing people just to get prepped for battle. I didn't see the SW going and killing eveyone on their way to Prospero. It is contained madness. Once they arrived they unleased hell. 

Either way I think the SW have a form of honor about them more so than the NL and the WE. Then again they are loyalists. 

And I would say Curze was crazy at the end. You would to if you saw how you died everyday. I felt bad for him when he fought beside his brothers because he saw the fall. He knew it was coming. But no one wanted or needed to listen.

On the topic of savage. All legions are savage in battle. Find me one who isn't savage. I think we need to find a different word to describe them. But that's just me.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

In the Dark King he says himself the reason he's so moribund is because of seeing his death since the beginning. Russ and his Rout feigned being barborous savages to make their opponents underestimate him. In first heretic Ahriman was beginning to see that the way Russ spoke was in itself not natural. To put up a front and project an image to fool your opponents takes a lot of focus. For the Night Haunter once he came to realization that he was slipping and becoming what he hated, he allwowed justice to be done upon him. How's that insanity? Being insane is a complete lack of awareness of what is right and wrong. While he did have lapses near the end about what was happening he always knew where the line was and when he crossed it. He believed in law and order and showed that not even he believed himself above it. He built a tower out of people? Yeah. Maybe you should go a bit further and read Soul Hunter. He allows a mortal to decapitate him for his crimes. He may have dispensed justice, but he was never a nut job. Name one thing that came out of the Haunter's mouth that turned out NOT to be true? Look it up. Idiots like Dorn and the Lion persecuted him. If they had listened from the beginning they would have seen the end coming. People keep calling him insane. Ruthless? Yes. Sadistic? Yes. But insanity would mean that their was a reason for his actions and the horrors he committed due to not being mentaly competent. He owned everything he'd done. His statement at the end and his actions prove that above all else, the Night Haunter took responsibility for what he'd done and accepted its consequences.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Well that explains the confusion then. I will agree that most Legions would not qualify as 'uncontrolled', including the SW if their claims are to be believed. Would you agree that most Legions could be described as 'fierce, brutal and severe'?
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. I have however, repeatedly, because they are perfect examples that the SW are not the only Legion known/believed to be savage. Which is my entire point.


Oh, I don't think anyone would. However, other than maybe two, I wouldn't think any other legion was more so. 

Ya, but I wasn't contradicting it so I don't care. :laugh:


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Emperors Mercy said:


> I'll agree the Night Lords show more control than the Space Wolves. I suppose the difference is with the Space Wolves being controlled weapons. I know it doesn't take much to destroy a planet and slaughter all it's people. But there was a story where the Space Wolves did go to a planet and help them win their freedom from Dark Eldar because they wanted compliance. After being the Eldar the leaders told them they didn't want to serve under anyone else and so the Space Wolves slaughtered them.
> 
> The WE would just kill and kill and kill. In fact in Battle for the Abyss they start killing people just to get prepped for battle. I didn't see the SW going and killing eveyone on their way to Prospero. It is contained madness. Once they arrived they unleased hell.
> 
> ...



As "Crazy" as Konrad Curze sounds, he has made his point quite valid in the audio in which Dorn finally confronts Curze on the way he deals with the human population. I wont spoil it for everyone, but in short words, Konrad Curze proves his point and shows Dorn that human being need a monster to scare them into submission. 

The World Eaters are not naturally mindless killers. They are actually pretty concentrated, skilled, and efficient warriors before inheriting the "butcher's nails". But even then, their mindless savagery can be explained, because they are psychologically messed up with works in their head feeding hate into the rest of the body.

The Rout savagery just cannot be explained. They are tactical, efficient, completely aware and control of their actions yet savage, brutal, genocidal and still performing their all their actions for the emperor.

Their is no other legion that performs its savagery with the awareness and efficiency as the Rout. 

They don't go hacking civilians because they believe the population will turn on them, or because, they have lost control of their minds. They do it because the Emperor sent them to completely anhilate everything. Even libraries and little green trees.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

@gen.ahab: I really have no idea what that was supposed to mean. Are you arguing that marines aren't 'fierce, brutal and severe', or that the SW are more 'fierce, brutal and severe' than others, or something else entirely?



ckcrawford said:


> The Rout savagery just cannot be explained.


Sure it can. They come from a violent, superstitious culture and have become very loyal to the Emperor and their Primarch. When ordered to do something they do it and don't hesitate to be brutal about it. Any savagery is the result of a) their orders and willingness to carry them out and/or b) their primitive culture instilling values that encourage violence and brutality.



> They are tactical, efficient, completely aware and control of their actions yet savage, brutal, genocidal and still performing their all their actions for the emperor.


1) By it's very nature savagery is seldom efficient and genocide really isn't, particularly when it isn't necessary.
2) All Space Marines do what they do for the Emperor, all come up with a philosophy to support their form of obedience and all are capable of brutal, genocidal actions whilst being completely tactical and self-aware. The SW are hardly unique in this way. 



> They do it because the Emperor sent them to completely anhilate everything. Even libraries and little green trees.


When the Emperor orders the extermination of a people only two Legions (Thousand Sons and Word Bearers) have been shown to hesitate in carrying it out. The Thousand Sons for their part seem more hesitant to burn books than they do kill people. When the Emperor does not order the extermination of a people the SW are not ones to go beyond what he ordered (unlike some). The SW are in many ways a fairly average Legion.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> When the Emperor orders the extermination of a people only two Legions (Thousand Sons and Word Bearers) have been shown to hesitate in carrying it out. The Thousand Sons for their part seem more hesitant to burn books than they do kill people. When the Emperor does not order the extermination of a people the SW are not ones to go beyond what he ordered (unlike some). The SW are in many ways a fairly average Legion.


Subtle differences between destroying a rebel planet and grinding your brother Primarch's Legion and homeworld into dust. And probably killing your brother in the process, too.

"Prospero Burns" touches on the subject. The main character asks why the SWs are executioners when, in fact, every Legion from the World Eaters on one end to the Word Bearers and Thousand Sons on the other, are all manufactured killers. The Rune Priest replies that it's all a matter of degree. Yes, all Legions are capable of widespread destruction. Yes, all Legions pay fealty to the Emperor, but it's to the exact degree that matters. The Thousand Sons would torch worlds if needed--say a widespread Daemonic infestation--but in less extreme cases they'd probably hesitate. Likewise, the World Eaters are part of the Imperium, but their priorities are probably closer to home: their Primarch, their immediate superior officer, or maybe to even just the current scuffle they're in right now.

The Space Wolves hit the magic combination of both. They're willing to lay waste to entire societies on the Emperor's command, without hesitation. 

That's why I think the Space Wolves find themselves as executioners while other Legions do not.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> @gen.ahab: I really have no idea what that was supposed to mean. Are you arguing that marines aren't 'fierce, brutal and severe', or that the SW are more 'fierce, brutal and severe' than others, or something else entirely?


:shok: Ok, I thought it was fairly clear, but the latter of the two would be correct. What I was saying was that only a small number, around two, would be considered as savage or more so. Going by the fierce, brutal and severe definition.



hailene said:


> The Space Wolves hit the magic combination of both. They're willing to lay waste to entire societies on the Emperor's command, without hesitation.


Or, in some cases, if they happen to find said society particularly irritating.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Okay the fact this isn't making sense why the SW are the executioners and not the WE is loyalty. Case in fact. You have an entire world you need butchered. Who's the first legion that comes to mind? Angron. That's what they do right? Think like a tactical commander. It's not the capability. If that were the case all the primarchs and legions are capable of butchering a world. It's gotta be more than that. Why not the ultramarines? The Imperial Fists? Raven Guard? DeathGuard. As I name these off if you truly follow 40k you know why you wouldn't choose them.

You get to who enjoys dirty work. The wolves and the eaters. Now who do you choose,the butcher or the wolf? Look how you recruited them. Look deep down into each of these guys since your a super pysker. Who can be deployed and controlled to do something horrible but know at a basic level to keep it in the lines? Russ. Angron hates to be controlled. He doesn't want to stop. It's not a matter of control. Will Angron stop? He doesn't want to. He wants to slaughter to his delight. To me that's the difference betweent the wolf and the butcher. Russ kills what the Emperor says so.Angron kills because he likes and revels in it. He may take out the whole system.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Or, in some cases, if they happen to find said society particularly irritating.


Thing is, exterminating things they find annoying isn't unique just to the SWs.

But wiping out fellow Astartes on the Emperor's command, and as Deadeye mentioned, only the targeted Legion's assets and men, is something the Wolves can do without question.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

hailene said:


> Thing is, exterminating things they find annoying isn't unique just to the SWs.


Naw, say it ain't so.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Sure it can. They come from a violent, superstitious culture and have become very loyal to the Emperor and their Primarch. When ordered to do something they do it and don't hesitate to be brutal about it. Any savagery is the result of a) their orders and willingness to carry them out and/or b) their primitive culture instilling values that encourage violence and brutality.


Anything that has been warped by chaos cannot be explained. Thats why the Wolves savagery is unexplainable. We really don't know what drives them to be the way they are. The World Eaters for example are hesitant (fighting the butcher's nails to restrain themselves). They react upon pure impulse. A single tick within their "Buther's Nails" and then everything goes haywire. Almost reacting to anything for no reason. 



MEQinc said:


> 1) By it's very nature savagery is seldom efficient and genocide really isn't, particularly when it isn't necessary.
> 2) All Space Marines do what they do for the Emperor, all come up with a philosophy to support their form of obedience and all are capable of brutal, genocidal actions whilst being completely tactical and self-aware. The SW are hardly unique in this way.


They are but most seem to not want to take those actions. For example in the audio, we see that Dorn did not except the brutality that Curze was displaying to the prisoners. The salamanders for example, would probably not do such a thing. 



MEQinc said:


> When the Emperor orders the extermination of a people only two Legions (Thousand Sons and Word Bearers) have been shown to hesitate in carrying it out. The Thousand Sons for their part seem more hesitant to burn books than they do kill people. When the Emperor does not order the extermination of a people the SW are not ones to go beyond what he ordered (unlike some). The SW are in many ways a fairly average Legion.


No they are not, they suffer genetic disorders that make them who they are in a bad and good way. Take this fact into consideration, it is impossible to create a chapter from the Routs geneseed outside of Fenris. The Space Wolves are the most diverse legion amongst them all... all the way to the bone. 

As far as an extermination, remember in _Prospero Burns_ they explain that the Wolves were only used when something absolutely and positively needed extermination. 

This is for the person who mentioned World Eaters. The thing about the World Eaters became mindless butchers. Only caring about the butchery of their enemies. 

We have two examples of how they differenciate from the Wolves.

First was before the Heresy, where in the planet Arrigata they spent hundreds of astartes charging a fortress in blood lust. They used no tactic except for a headstrong charge. 

Then we have Istvaan, where Horus planned to bomb the shit out of the loyalist parts of their legion. Instead, Angron disobeyed him and went with head assault against the loyalist portion of their forces. 

The World Eaters miss in tactic and object completion.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> Okay the fact this isn't making sense why the SW are the executioners and not the WE is loyalty.


Given the nature of his recruitment, the types of battles they fight and their all around mentality the WE are a remarkably loyal legion. They have literally zero reason to do anything that the Emperor asks, yet they do. They have literally zero reason to like, trust or work with the other Legions, yet they do. They have literally zero reason not to go berserk and try to murder the Emperor, yet they don't.



> Look how you recruited them. Look deep down into each of these guys since your a super pysker.


Clearly the Emperor does trust Angron. He doesn't deploy him exclusively to butcher worlds, the WE have brought worlds into compliance. The Emperor clearly botched Angron's recruitment yet even still the WE remain an effective and loyal weapon (until Horus shows them what appreciation and respect feel like). The WE easily have the capacity to be just as loyal and restrained (or not) as the SW.



> Who can be deployed and controlled to do something horrible but know at a basic level to keep it in the lines?


I find it interesting that posters keep alternating on whether the SW are controlled or not. Butchering entire worlds because they annoy you, while not unique to the SW, is hardly the actions of someone in control and is definitely not 'keeping it in the lines'.



ckcrawford said:


> Anything that has been warped by chaos cannot be explained. Thats why the Wolves savagery is unexplainable.


The Wolves savagery is not caused by the wulfen change. It is easily explainable in the manner I said previously, no need to blame this on the warp.



> No they are not, they suffer genetic disorders that make them who they are in a bad and good way.


Do note that I said "in many ways". I realize that the SW have unique traits, all the Legions do (that's kinda the point). My point was that the SW are not more loyal than others, they are not more savage; they sit roughly in the middle of both of these spectrums.



> Take this fact into consideration, it is impossible to create a chapter from the Routs geneseed outside of Fenris.


It is believed to be impossible, post Heresy. Also, this has nothing to do with savagery and only minimal impact on the 'uniqueness' of the Legion (almost all Chapters recruit from only one world). 



> As far as an extermination, remember in _Prospero Burns_ they explain that the Wolves were only used when something absolutely and positively needed extermination.


The populace of the planet in _Wolves at the Door _(that's the title right, the one with the DE in it) did not 'absolutely and positively need' extermination. Neither did Shrike. The SW, like every Legion, are used in a wide variety of situations. 



> Then we have Istvaan, where Horus planned to bomb the shit out of the loyalist parts of their legion. Instead, Angron disobeyed him and went with head assault against the loyalist portion of their forces.


A move which Horus latter admitted wasn't that bad a call and proved to be necessary. Angron doesn't seem to think heavily but he's not stupid. A ground force that has already survived a virus bombing and global firestorm is also likely to survive further bombing. Grounds forces will have to be deployed at some point to ensure that everyone is dead and by charging in Angron gets his men bloodied in the war against Terra. It is speculated that one of the reasons the traitors held out so well before the Drop Site Massacre was because they were already prepared to fight other Astartes.



> The World Eaters miss in tactic and object completion.


Except they don't. Niether of the events you listed (nor any others that I am aware of) show the WE to have failed because of their straight-forwardness. The WE were never chastized for their actions, or for failing to bring worlds into the fold. They were an effective, brutal Legion that did it's job in the manner they felt best suited them (a description that equally describes the SW).


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Really? So I guess his attack on Istavaan was completely......oh yeah that's right he failed didn't he? In the end they DID have to do exactly what Horus had intended.What's more all the men who died HAVING TO go in and support his stupid ass were wasted in a fool-hardy effort. That guy and his legion are bullet sponges. If your not sure that hill is occupied, send the world eaters. Hey that compound may have snpers? Send in the world eaters. This rope doesn't look sturdy. You guessed it, send in the lobotomized freaks. The first Primarch to actually kill a astartes is guess who? Angron. While most of the Primarchs looked paternally or at least like a commander and his troops on their legion, how'd angron see them. As expendable dead weight. He lobotomized them to take away their inhibition about his insane tactics. When I say tactics it's more like the philosophy of the quicket point between two points is a straight line. You show me one battle where Angron outsmarts and enemy or someone looks at him and says "He's actually pretty smart." He's a gladiator,all he cares about is slaughter.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> Really? So I guess his attack on Istavaan was completely......oh yeah that's right he failed didn't he?


Nope. The WE were the only Legion that actually managed to kill off all their loyalists. The EC, LW and DG all failed, which is why Horus was forced to resort to bombing. Which also failed to kill everyone, as I said it would. 



> While most of the Primarchs looked paternally or at least like a commander and his troops on their legion, how'd angron see them. As expendable dead weight.


Do you have evidence for that? Angron isn't afraid to lose men but he doesn't seem to hate them, or view them as worthless.



> He lobotomized them to take away their inhibition about his insane tactics.


He lobotomized them to make them fearless in battle, to make them more effective at fighting, to make them more dangerous.



> When I say tactics it's more like the philosophy of the quicket point between two points is a straight line. You show me one battle where Angron outsmarts and enemy or someone looks at him and says "He's actually pretty smart." He's a gladiator,all he cares about is slaughter.


1) A straight line is the shortest distance between any two points. That's a fact, not a stupid philosophy.
2) Angron's tactics aren't necessarily smart, I never said they were, and they certainly aren't designed to impress but they aren't stupid. His strategies are simple but they're no less effective for it. He realizes that Marines are most effective up close and that power armour is immune to most small arms. So, rather than dance around trying to avoid a couple casualties he gets in there, gets in done and moves on. He is efficient, in a way few other Primarchs are. Doesn't matter if you see it coming, he's still gonna run right through you.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Nope. The WE were the only Legion that actually managed to kill off all their loyalists. The EC, LW and DG all failed, which is why Horus was forced to resort to bombing. Which also failed to kill everyone, as I said it would.
> 
> Was it ever stated directly he got'em all? Though it may be more down to World Eater tactics (charging the enemy in mass) that led to their total defeat. The rest of the Loyalists stayed back and dug in, making them tougher nuts to crack.
> 
> ...


And one correction for Deadeye--Leman Russ actually was first (to our knowledge) to kill an Astartes. Prospero occurred before Horus was stabbed on Davin, which means it was before Istavaan.

Plus it's likely that Leman Russ killed Astartes before when the Emperor sent the Space Wolves to take'em out.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

hailene said:


> And one correction for Deadeye--Leman Russ actually was first (to our knowledge) to kill an Astartes. Prospero occurred before Horus was stabbed on Davin, which means it was before Istavaan.


I assume he's talking about Angron's recruitment, when he smashed 7 captains of the WE to death. 

Also, Magnus was present in Horus' visions and actively trying to stop him from turning, an event we also see in _A Thousand Sons_ as occuring before Prospero was burned.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Actually when Tarvitz is surveying his survivors before the bombardment it mentions something along the lines of 'Even a few lost looking World Eaters'. Where as there is no mention of any survivng Death Guard, whether Mortarion managed to kill them all or not isn't known, but he's the only one who might of done it.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Yes, I'm talking about him killing his own troops initally throwing a tantrum of being dragged into command of the eaters. So keep the correction and read the cannon Hailene. He was pissed like hell for being dragged away from his men and his captains tried to console him. Seven bodies later, I believe it was Kharn who while being strangled to death finally got him to chill the hell out. So yeah, he killed his own men to begin with. If he was so good at being a tacitical leader how come he was one of the few primarchs who couldn't conquer his own world. From the cannon he was literally about to watch all of his men die, and there was a possibility he would have joined him if the Emp hadn't shown up. He couldn't lead his own men to anything but slaugher and he kept this up when it came to his legion. Yes, they had many victories but making the enemy run out of rounds by absorbing them is not a good tactic. If you feel the eaters are better because he lobotomized them I'd say between the EC and them it's a toss up who's more fucked up currently. Wasn't there a story where Kharn was trying to fight off the insanity that was overwhelming him,by getting help from another astartes he ended up turning down? I forgot where but I don't believe being able to only say "Kill,burn,maim" is something many troops want.

One on One I'd still say Russ could take him but I think that Russ would probably not walk away without a few things missing like an arm or leg. When it comes to one on one combat I'd say Angron is a top tier warrior with few in his class.To say he's a good general or leader is completely idiotic. If your in a organization that lobotomized you to make you not think twice about charging into a heavy artilery straight on is the only tactic to use I would leave. Angron and his troops DID not succeed in killing the loyalists like they wanted to. Read it again. Lucius betrayed his section and escaped.THey dropped a building on Angrons dumbass. In the end it was the bombardment that finished off everyone except for you know who. They lost a shit ton of traitor world eaters and Horus wanted to not expend their forces to much since they still had the seige. Angron thought "burn,kill,maim." He destroyed his legion by lobotomizing them so they would never be in strength again. Look at them compared to the Night lords,black legion,alpha legion,and iron warriors. Still attacking as a legion or at least large warbands. The Emperors Children and World Eaters share the fate of being small bands of psycho's who have no overall goal or aim. They just revel in whatever their gods want to do.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

What bloody cannon? Are we shooting things?

As for his own strategic skills, Angron with a bunch of under-equipped gladiators fought off the best trained and equipped armies on his world for years. It wasn't until attrition, lack of supplies, and everyone ganging up on his rag-tag army that nailed his coffin shut.

If you're talking about traitor Legions still functioning as a Legion, the World Eaters take the cake. Most of the Legions are fractured into tiny bits, but according to the CSM codex (which I don't have on hand, but can look up further if you're interested) he made a total shitstorm with 50 companies (50 companies, 5000 World Eaters, no one else musters a force like that) and went apeshit on the Imperium for a couple centuries.

Then of course the whole First War of Armageddon. Accompanying him was a large CSM contingent. 

So I suggest you learn the _canon_ before making a bunch of remarks completely and utterly contradictory to established canon.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Read Angrons recruitment from the Emperor. When he was found his men were starving and exhausted. The forces arrayed against them were on the verge of the defeat. Angron swore he would die with them and they did the same. Then the Emperor came and took him away and he watched as they were slaughtered. When he was reunited with his legion his was in a word pissed. 7 captains tried to calm him but he killed them. In the end it was Kharn who, as he was being strangled, managed to get him to accept his new positition. THAT THE ORIGIN OF ANGRON AS TOLD BY THE BLACK LIBRARY. I don't know what you've read but no one is making anything up.It is known that the Emperor discovered all of his sons, so if you want to argue that Russ took down the other primarchs before this then okay the timeline on that is debatable. If you are arguing because you aren't aware of a fact than look it up if you don't believe me. Also most of the marines it doesn't say whether they were numerous berskers or original members. He also rolled a a bodyguard of a dozen bloodthirsters. As a daemon prince he can summon a lot of forces to his call as an emissary of the blood god. If you look at the story of kharn it says after he was done with his legion they broke off into warbands killing others and each other indiscriminantly. I believe that Angron commanded the forces of the blood god and the fact they said csm and not his world eaters specifically leads me to believe that they were there but not enough in number to roll alone.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Oh and the battle of skalathrax is the battle that broke the legion into warbands. Great example of the moronic berserker crap I'm talking about. A night cold enough to kill astartes is coming over the planet. Some world eaters with a hint of intelligence take shelter so they can continue fight the Emperors children in the morining when they can fight properly. Kharn? Takes a flame thrower and lays waste to everyone on both sides crippling his legion. It's stated they never attacked again in anything close to force again. So it looks like Angron rolls the blood gods legion


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

No one is debating that they were starving and exhausted. They were starving an exhausted because they were a bunch of freed slaves that ran into the mountains and crushed every army sent towards them for years. If he was as stupid as you make him out to be he wouldn't have last a month, much less years.

As for his angst after getting teleported by the Emperor it's a little bit more understandable considering the people he fought along with for years were left to die without their leader. I'd assume most leaders would be distraught if a similar thing occurred to them.

And I'm not debating Angron wasn't first to kill a marine. He very well have been. 

My bad about Angron leading 5000 berserkers. It was actually 50,000(!).

To quote the CSM codex, "...Angron, Primarch of the World Eaters, rampaged from the Eye of Terror at the head of an army of fifty thousand Khorne Berserkers. For nearly two hundred years the _World Eaters_ (italics mine) burned and slaughtered their way across three dozen star systems..."

On Armageddon Angron had at least "Entire companies of World Eater Berserkers..." at his disposal. 

About Kharn and Skalathrax, there was reason to his madness. 

"Fighting against the Emperor's Children, the World Eaters needed one more victory over Fulgrim's warriors and the planet would be claimed in Khorne's name. *The battle had to be won before Skalathrax's long, frozen night drew in and killed victor and vanquished alike."*

The World Eaters either had to fight and win the battle or die by the cold. There was no chance of retreat. Kharn gave them incentive to continue going forward. Though that got out of and the rest is history.

Ironically enough the World Eaters have probably shown the most widespread intra-Legion cooperation of all the traitor Legions.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

The other points are debatable as Khorne has multiple marines who are berserkers not all of them originally world eaters as you can switch legion like the those who follow the black legion. The point of the battle of skalathrax was that they had taken shelter to escape the cold. Meaning they,both sides, had seen the weather conditions as lethal and were going to wait it out. Kharn driven by bloodlust is the one who took a flamethrower and killed them all out of disgust and rage. There was never any issue about finding shelter or winning before the cold. The issue was the maniac torching both sides. I'm sure your joking with the cooperation thing. Of all the legions they work cooperate the best? The Khornate berserkers are the coolest guys to role with?ok. If you think Kharn was making a tactical decision than go ahead. I guess there's two sides to everything.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

No, on Skalathrax there was no option for shelter. It was either win the war and claim the planet or die freezing to death.

The World Eaters attacked and were repulsed. They didn't want to go forward anymore (so much for your mindless berserker theory). Kharn, realizing that they had to win or else, chose to decide the issue and start torching things.

There was never an option to retreat until morning. They'd all be dead before morning. I quoted that directly out of the codex.

And what other Legion has cooperated amongst themselves in their thousands outside the Black Legion and the World Eaters? No one.

And even then, we've never been given numbers of the actual number of Black Legion members that follow Abby.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Unless I missed my mark I thought all the traitor legions with maybe the obvious F you attitude of the Night Lords came when the Despoiler called. Also it's noted that after skalathrax and upon their arrival on Angron daemon world he was gifted with the legion was torn apart and no longer had any type of cohesion or command control. They are in varrying sizes of warbands but pretty much no longer are at legion strength. Anyway the point I'm trying to make here is though the Emperor wasn't completely tuned in, he chose the executioners pretty well. Could Angron kill anyone? Yeah,would he kill anyone for the Emperor? No.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Nah, they don't really come when Abby calls. He has to herd them to get them to work together for an hour.

It's true that it does say that after Skalathrax they were fractured into many warbands. Though we don't know the exact date of Skalathrax. Angron may have had all this fun with his Legion before Skalathrax, or maybe all the warbands decided to follow Angron a couple times. We don't know.

On your final point about the executioners I agree. I merely disagreed on your portrayal of Angron. He wasn't completely inept nor was he without rhyme or reason for his method of war.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Clearly the Emperor does trust Angron. He doesn't deploy him exclusively to butcher worlds, the WE have brought worlds into compliance. The Emperor clearly botched Angron's recruitment yet even still the WE remain an effective and loyal weapon (until Horus shows them what appreciation and respect feel like). The WE easily have the capacity to be just as loyal and restrained (or not) as the SW.


Actually, one of the reasons why Angron fell first to Horus' side was because his father had failed him a second time, when he forbid Angron to use the "Buther's Nails." We see how Angron and his legion became the ultimate weapon, to one of the most mistrusted weapons.




MEQinc said:


> The Wolves savagery is not caused by the wulfen change. It is easily explainable in the manner I said previously, no need to blame this on the warp.


I refute this. I believe it definitely has something to do with the Helix. Its not the Wulfen Change, but it definitely is part of it. The Wulfen Change is the extreme part of the trait.




MEQinc said:


> Do note that I said "in many ways". I realize that the SW have unique traits, all the Legions do (that's kinda the point). My point was that the SW are not more loyal than others, they are not more savage; they sit roughly in the middle of both of these spectrums.


They are definitely more savage. I could really say the Space Wolves only objective about their brutality is all because they truly believe they are serving the Emperor. Where as the World Eaters, Blood Angels, and Iron Warriors get off in the action, The Wolves care about their place in the Imperium most than others. I believe in someways, because they want to make up for it in their "flaw."




MEQinc said:


> The populace of the planet in _Wolves at the Door _(that's the title right, the one with the DE in it) did not 'absolutely and positively need' extermination. Neither did Shrike. The SW, like every Legion, are used in a wide variety of situations.


In accordance to the Imperium I'm afraid they had to. The population wanted to be on its own, despite the Imperium's intervening against their genocide. 




MEQinc said:


> A move which Horus latter admitted wasn't that bad a call and proved to be necessary. Angron doesn't seem to think heavily but he's not stupid. A ground force that has already survived a virus bombing and global firestorm is also likely to survive further bombing. Grounds forces will have to be deployed at some point to ensure that everyone is dead and by charging in Angron gets his men bloodied in the war against Terra. It is speculated that one of the reasons the traitors held out so well before the Drop Site Massacre was because they were already prepared to fight other Astartes.


At this point he was. Many things in this battle went wrong for the traitors. Firstly we have them wasting time when they needed to prepare for another assault on another Istvaan. Not to mention run plans against Terra. Next, they got rid of many astartes from their legions, that wouldn't follow them. The only thing they messed up with this tactic, was using even more astartes to destroy them. This was stupid. The loyalists were going to get the shit bombed out of them. If there were even survivors, they would have posted minimal threat. How were they going to get back to Terra? Start a junk yard war show and hopefully make a ship to take them back? Maybe hitchhike? In many ways, this little bumb may have caused to lose the war from the beginning. They had wasted to much precious time, and too many astartes fighting their own legion for crying out loud.




MEQinc said:


> Except they don't. Niether of the events you listed (nor any others that I am aware of) show the WE to have failed because of their straight-forwardness. The WE were never chastized for their actions, or for failing to bring worlds into the fold. They were an effective, brutal Legion that did it's job in the manner they felt best suited them (a description that equally describes the SW).


They did fail. I explained Istvaan. And the other one was suppose to bring a world into compliance. They were only ordered to kill the leaders of the fortress. Instead they killed the whole population. After that incident, Guilliman told the Emperor and the Emperor forbid him to use the "butcher nails" practice.

In the end, the World Eaters became a failed legion, and couldn't be trusted at all. Especially with the Great Crusade comming to an end.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Okay Hailene. Here's what I was trying to get at. Angron in my opinion is a great warrior. Like the guy from God of War,his name escapes me right now. If you played the game you saw in the first one he went against a barbarian horde that out numbered him and his spartans. That's a bad general and soldier. A warrior only cares about direct combat and his prowess leading him to victory. If it's a case of taking out a great beast or defeating a powerful foe, I'd say Angron wins. When it comes to military tactics and executiions,yes I'm saying he ignorant. He was never trained in that sort of thing as a gladiator and only perfected the art of butchering his opponent. Leading men has NEVER been something he's suceeded in from the beginning. He only seems good when he's got genetically surperior armies at his beck and call or daemons. The other primarchs lead regular men to victories on their planet. Though I doubt the planets forces could kill him with ease, everyone who follows Angron goes to their ruin.....except Kharn in a way.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> He was pissed like hell for being dragged away from his men and his captains tried to console him. Seven bodies later, I believe it was Kharn who while being strangled to death finally got him to chill the hell out. So yeah, he killed his own men to begin with.


To be fair to Angron, they weren't really his men at this point. His men had been left to die on the planet below, while these so called warriors had waited for him in instead of helping. He woke up in a strange ship, his last memory being battling strange forces on the world below so he fought the first thing he saw. And apparently they all fought back. 



> If he was so good at being a tacitical leader how come he was one of the few primarchs who couldn't conquer his own world.


This is utter bull honky. He lead perhaps a few hundred slaves in rebellion against the much better armed planetary armies, a challenge greater than many of the others faced. Other Primarchs conquered their planets in a manner that didn't involve tactical genius, Curze for example. Even the Lion doesn't appear to have used his defined tactical genius in 'conquering' his world, he just killed some beasts.



ckcrawford said:


> Actually, one of the reasons why Angron fell first to Horus' side was because his father had failed him a second time, when he forbid Angron to use the "Buther's Nails."


So? I said that the Emperor trusted Angron, not that Angron liked the Emperor. The Emperor gave Angron plenty of reasons to turn but he still trusted Angron to lead his own Legion and fulfil his role with the Great Crusade.

Plus, I was more going to the idea that in an alternate version of events, where the Emperor handled Angron better there is no reason to believe that the WE would not be completely loyal and thus effectively identical to the SW in terms of loyalty and savagery.



> I believe it definitely has something to do with the Helix.


I disagree, and have provided my rational for my belief, but you're entitled to your opinions.



> They are definitely more savage. I could really say the Space Wolves only objective about their brutality is all because they truly believe they are serving the Emperor. Where as the World Eaters, Blood Angels, and Iron Warriors get off in the action,


I'm not sure why you think the fact that these legions 'get off' on their brutality decreases the savagery involved (I'd argue it increases it). Nor do I understand why you think the fact that they do it for the Emperor some how increases the savagery of the SW. Nor do I understand how you can consitently ignore the fact that the NL, WE, BA and IW ALL also do it for the Emperor. Finally by the definition I provided for savage, 'vicious, brutal and cruel', the Night Lords qualify far better and by the other provided definition of 'violent and uncontrolled' the WE and BA are both more or equally qualifed than the SW. So, I really don't think that the SW can claim to be the most savage.



> In accordance to the Imperium I'm afraid they had to. The population wanted to be on its own, despite the Imperium's intervening against their genocide.


I'm not sure if you realize this, but most planets didn't want to join the Imperium initially. Yet, somehow, most were not also exterminated. Every other Legion has found a way to change a world's mind, can't the Wolves?


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Curze didn't need tactical genius? You think frightening an entire planet into behaving lawfully is something a berserker does? You are mistaken. The application of planetary fear in my opinion is psychological warfare at a astronomically grand scale. That it's not is bullshit. First all the other primarchs engaged in tactics. I believe the only other primarch that needed saving was Mortarion and he in fact had just been overwhelmed.Angron never thought of equipping his slaves,the disposition of defences,or coordinating supplies to hold out against a foe. If it was Corax he never would have stayed in one area for the slave masters to find him,but stay mobile and doing hit and run. Alpharius would have infiltrated their society and not rebelled outright,biding their time till they could take down all of the leadership. A slave rebellion led by that douche bag Gulliman would have taken longer. He would have waited until enough weapons and supplies had been gathered.That's the quick part.He then would have taken his time scripting a codex slaveronica to govern how the slave comitted to war. Dorn would have fortified his defences and made sure he took a position that was geographically advantageous to holding out indefinitely.

Angron wasn't the only primarch born at a disadvantage. Curze and the Lion were born naked and never given any proper instruction in their initial years. They had to survive on whit and cunning alone. Curze in a murerous city and Johnson in a jungle of warp mutated creatures.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> Curze didn't need tactical genius? You think frightening an entire planet into behaving lawfully is something a berserker does? You are mistaken. The application of planetary fear in my opinion is psychological warfare at a astronomically grand scale.


Curze didn't apply any military tactics to his takeover of the planet because he didn't fight a war. Indeed it doesn't appear that he actually set out to conquer the planet at all, it just worked out that way. He punished criminals and in so doing created a legend that forced the criminal element underground which opened up the top levels of government a role that Curze decided to fill. He didn't apply psychological warfare to the conquering of a planet, he applied his brutal punishments in defending right from wrong.



> I believe the only other primarch that needed saving was Mortarion and he in fact had just been overwhelmed.


Needing saving has nothing to do with tactics. Some battles are just unwinnable, Mortarion showed that as did Angron. Some Primarchs were practially handed planets, others 'conquered' theirs as a side effect of their primary aim. This has little to do with tactics.



> Angron never thought of equipping his slaves,the disposition of defences,or coordinating supplies to hold out against a foe.


Source? The fact is we know very little about how Angron chose to fight his rebellion; beyond the fact that he used a well-timed decapation strike to remove most of his oppositions leadership and that he did in fact fight a hit-and-run war before retreating to a solid defensive position where he held out for months against a numerically and technologically superior force. What he did was impressive, it just wasn't enough.



> Angron wasn't the only primarch born at a disadvantage.


I never said he was. However his situation is harsher than most. Naked and alone he is attacked by aliens, who he kills with his bare hands, before being abducted by slavers. Literally the first people he met tried to kill him and the first humans lobotomized him.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Watch Apocalypse Now for the definition of psychological warfare at it's most ruthless and brutal. That's where the inspiration for Curze came from. If you don't think stringing gutted bodies up to send a message to stop fucking around is psychological warfare then I'd like to hear your definition. I think my point was that it was an unwinnable battle as far as Mortarion was concerned. In Angrons case, his mantra of full frontal assault only works when you have a surperior army and force on your side.Case in point one of my favorite movies is Zulu. Couple thousand zulu warriors take on a British company. The Brits maintain military order and discipline and through superior tactics and weapons they kill them all. Full frontal assault with surperior numbers showing it doesn't matter.

Another case would be the 300. The got the asses handed to them until they decided to use the topography when a traitor gave them useful intel. Angron would have just kept smashing at the spartans or british till he was the only one left still swinging. That's his thing. He had great warriors in his legion but he crippled them putting the butchers nails into them making them mentally handicapped. A berserker is a snipers dream target. Some idiot running in a straight line right at you and you know taking cover isn't in his vocabulary. Executioners need to have a balance between barbarian savagery and cold calculating thought. Instead of picking apart my points,go ahead and show me one instance where pre-heresy Angron displayed methodical planning on any target. If you can't then I think you should find another canidate.There's a reason the incredible Hulk isn't in charge of the Avengers.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> Another case would be the 300. The got the asses handed to them until they decided to use the topography when a traitor gave them useful intel.


If you are using the movie as an example then you need to shut up right there. At the battle of Thermopylae there were 300 Spartans and roughly 3000 Greek City State Allies along side.

Sorry to get off track but it fucking pisses me off when people use that stupid movie as a historical reference.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I was using the the historical data of the event of the actual 300 spartans.Whatever shit your talking about I have no idea as I never saw the movie. Maybe you should take your own advice and shut up. I knew from before that movie came out it was never meant to be historical reference,but it's based off of a comic book. If you were part of the idiots dumb enough to believe it was supposed to be historically accurate then I hate to burst your bubble but Frank Miller (the guy who wrote the comic) isn't a historian,he's a comic book writer. Maybe you should have asked me what I was referring to before you jumped off the topic. The number 300 isn't exclusive to that movie as I said "the 300" and not "The movie 300."


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## FreeEarl1001 (Nov 15, 2011)

Deadeye776 said:


> I was using the the historical data of the event of the actual 300 spartans.


Dunno' man... the fact you used two other movie references before makes that seem a little less likely... Just sayin'.

Also, though Apocalypse Now's based off it, I'm pretty sure Curze is actually influenced by Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness, his name being a combination of the character "Mr Kurtz," and the authors.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

ThatOtherGuy said:


> If you are using the movie as an example then you need to shut up right there. At the battle of Thermopylae there were 300 Spartans and roughly 3000 Greek City State Allies along side.
> 
> Sorry to get off track but it fucking pisses me off when people use that stupid movie as a historical reference.



And yet they were still horrendously outnumbered, point still stands perfectly.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I can see why you'd think that. Let me say this. Read the book Gates Of Fire if you already haven't. When I first heard they were making that movie I thought it would be based off of the book. When I found out a comic writer had made it based off of a **** erotic/crossfit fantasy I lost interest. Gates of Fire is probably one of the gripping novels I've ever laid eyes on and it should've been made into a movie as it is more closely based on historical fact. Polynikes is my favorite character. 

As for the Apocalypse Now reference I think it's you that's mistaken. Konrad Curze is based off of Col. Kurtz as his assassin is "M-Shen" is a play off of actor Martin Sheen's name who was the assassin in the movie. If you've seen it then you know how closely it follows the story of the Night Haunter, watch it and then look at Curze's story and tell me they aren't almost parallels. Kurtz is a military commander who has "seen" the only way to win the war with the vietcong is to engage in tactics that others find reprehensible. When Martin Sheen's character finally locates him with his men, the way up the river is something that may sound familiar. He's got bodies of VC strung up in the trees as well as impaled all the way leading up to his fortress. The entire area it's said has been made compliant as the VC are terrified of Kurtz and his men but the US military says he's gone too far and sends Sheen into "terminate his command with extreme prejudice."Where have I heard a story similiar to that.......


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> If you don't think stringing gutted bodies up to send a message to stop fucking around is psychological warfare then I'd like to hear your definition.


I don't really consider it psychological warfare because I don't really consider it warfare. Night Haunter, at least initially, wasn't 'at war' with the criminal element of Nostromo. Rather he was an animalistic man-child enacting his view of right and wrong. Eventually he came to realize that his methods could be used to eliminate crime world wide and at that point he began to engage in psychological warfare but initially he was just doin his thing.



> In Angrons case, his mantra of full frontal assault only works when you have a surperior army and force on your side.


Yes, feel free to completely ignore the bulk of my post. You know, the parts where I discuss Angron's tactics during his rebellion. Angron's war was unwinnable with the forces he had at his disposal. There was nothing he could do to obtain more. Personnally I'd like to see you lead a couple hundred lobotomized ex-slaves in a rebellion that lasts years and results in the deaths of much of the planets governing body.



> Executioners need to have a balance between barbarian savagery and cold calculating thought.


Not really. What part of 'swarm the planet and kill them all' is cold calculating thought? Because that's exactly the strategy that the Wolves employ when they act as the Executioners on Prospero.



> Instead of picking apart my points,go ahead and show me one instance where pre-heresy Angron displayed methodical planning on any target.


We've only been given maybe five examples of Angron in action (Ist III, Ist IV, that planet with the Ultras and his homeworld). On Ist III he may have been overeager but I stand by my defence of his thinking in that matter. On Ist IV everybody used straightforward charging actions. On the planet with the Ultras his slaughter was approved by Horus (much like the Wolves on Prospero). And as I've tried to demonstrate he did use methodical planning on his homeworld. 

Further, I'd like to remind you of the common opinion on the Wolves before they got their own novel. I can only imagine that the _Butcher's Nails_ will have a similar effect.



Deadeye776 said:


> As for the Apocalypse Now reference I think it's you that's mistaken. Konrad Curze is based off of Col. Kurtz


You realize that Col. Kurtz is based off _Heart of Darkness_ right? And that therefore any character based off him would also be based off that story, like FreeEarl said.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Deadeye776,

You make some interesting points, but I think that - overall - your arguments fail to take into consideration the context of the background setting. Furthermore, you often seem to subscribe to a mindset of _"the character I sympathize with genuinely thought/felt/acted this way, therefore their thought-process is legitimate"._ The problem is, just because someone genuinely feels something doesn't mean they're right about it.

Where Night Haunter is concerned, here's the thing: he _wasn't_ justified - he just *felt* he was justified. Even an Imperium that (due to being led by a being with a macro-, largely unfathomable view toward human survival) was brutal on a galactic scale was horrified by the things he was doing. AND he demonstrated increasing levels of instability/insanity. AND he had at his disposal entire fleets and armies capable of unleashing horrific amounts of violence and terror on the Galaxy at large.

OF COURSE they went after him. Konrad Curze was about as "justified" by this result as any self-fulfilling prophecy can be.

The same for Colonel Kurtz. You can't just take his statements from the movie "Apocalypse Now" as the word of God. Look at the situation he's in, and what he's doing. He's clearly an unstable, disturbed man whom war has affected deeply and negatively. Even his erst-while leaders, whom Francis Coppola does not view favorably in the movie, understand that he has gone too far and they send assassins to kill him. 

They do so because he's no longer fighting _the_ war, which - rightly or wrongly - came with the legal backing of the nation to whom he swore oaths, but his *own* war, which has no rhyme or ultimate reason. He's just out in the jungle, profoundly affected by evidence of mutilation used as discipline by the locals, directing a campaign of atrocity. What has he accomplished? NOTHING. He's out there scaring people, holding no strategic objectives, presiding over a court of dead-eyed (no pun intended) men made hollow by the horrible things they've done! His masters wish to wish loyalty and popular support in this country, and Kurtz is pretty much ensuring that they will just be terrified of them (and likely to side with the enemy given a chance).

So of course Night Haunter is a dead ringer for Colonel Kurtz. What did he accomplish? NOTHING! Terrorizing people made them no more loyal to the Imperium. His own social experiment had to be exploded into cosmic fragments.

Moving on...

Where Angron is concerned, you're ignoring the context of his gradual corruption into the being that we know.

Angron at the beginning is not that man, though. Angron's tactical acumen is made pretty apparent by the fact that he is able to fight a long-term guerilla campaign against superior forces. More importantly, "After Desh'ea" makes it obvious that - despite having NO formal training - he is able to understand and anticipate large-scale tactics merely through scraps of detail and conversation... even in between episodes of rage.

By the time we get to Angron charging his own Loyalists on Isstvan III, his journey to Khorne and the Ruinous Powers has been more or less completed (see Kharn, for instance, drooling and berserk in the same book). That trip did not occur overnight, nor did was it completed right after Kharn managed to get his Primarch to accept his Legion. Rather, what you probably got was a gradual degradation of the Legion over a period of time, as the World Eaters truly earned their name.

As the Index Astartes stated, the Emperor made his biggest mistake sending Angron to Horus to be put under control. I would argue that, at that point, the World Eaters were probably teetering on a balance of rage-fuelled berserk-ness in the melee and proper tactical/strategic planning prior to the battle (see, for instance, The Collected Visions, which still shows the World Eaters using armour, artillery, etc.). That is, pre-meditated ferocity and savagery, but also calculated/according to planning meant to earn them victory. Somewhat like the World Eaters in "The Outcast Dead", if you will.

By being sent to Horus right as Erebus and the Lodges were going into overdrive, he was subjected to indoctrination to the Ruinous Powers. And then, yeah, when he fell to Khorne, forget about it. At that point the whole Berzerker thing more or less came on, probably culminating around the time of the Siege of Terra.

Cheers,
P.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I'll start with the Night Haunter. There's multiple ways to do anything. Your definition of pyschological warfare still hasn't been given MEQinc. You just say that you don't think that the Night Haunter did it. That's not a definition.Pyschological Warfare -The use of various techniques, such as propaganda and terror, to lower an enemy's morale.There are two levels of propaganda. If you look up the name Tony Poe he was thought, when he story came out, to be the inspiration for Apocalypse Now incorrectly.A CIA paramilitary officer in vietnam he dropped the heads of VC on known VC locations in a form of "black" propaganda. Feel free to look this up. Using terror is a form of pyschological warfare. That's from a definition so if you don't agree with the Night Haunter using terror as psychological warfare, then okay but your wrong. It's the definition of pyschological warfare. 

I'm sure you think that because he led some slaves in a revolt that's showing tactical thought. Here's where we differ. If you've seen the movie Kingdom of Heaven it has a scene where a muslim advisor is trying to spur Saladin to attack. Saladin refuses because he says the attack requires more than "Allah's blessing." The proximity of a water source was essential he said when desert fighting and until that could be establshed the attack would fail. That's tactics my friend. He could have charged in there shouting "Allah Will's it" but he knew better. He used things like logistics and topography to his advantage to put his army in the best position to win. That's using strategy. Throwing your army at an enemy because you think the orbital bombardment won't be thorough would be intelligent. It would have been if he was absoloutely wrong. Horus laid out why the bombardment was be used instead of using ground troops. Angron's lust for combat spurred him to attack the loyalists on the ground. 

I believe that Angron favors martial prowess to actual tactics. By this I mean he believes instead of deception and subterfuge, he thinks a warriors ability is what should win a battle, not tricks. Swarming Prospero? Right. This is a complete distortion of the facts. Let's remember his "swarm" began with an call to Magnus to:

1. Let him know he was coming
2. Tell him to lower his sheilds and weapons
3. Basically,not out right,but telling him deep down he knew what he had to do but didn't enjoy this at all.
4. Also let him know that he'd never given this curtesy to anyone but they were brothers

Magnus was ready to submit to justice but the fact that his sons rebelled spurred him to actions. This wasn't a swarming at all. These aren't the actions of a berserker. He doesn't enjoy doing this but his resolve is strengthened by his loyalty to the Emperor.Magnus in his last noble act lowered the sheilds because he knew deep down he'd gone too far to not be punished. In the end his damnation was solidified for the same reasons it began,saving his sons. I don't see Angron ever have any type of sentimentality for anyone after leaving his slavery. He led those men to their deaths.Oh by the way, for the guy who said he wasn't trained in fighting you don't know what your talking about. Gladiators are always trained to the maximum in hand to hand and armed combat. No one wants to see some guys with no idea what they're doing fighting. You feed those bastards to fanged beasts.....so I hear. 

Phoebus, if you actually look at Nostramo Quintus it was a model of a compliant world.Thugs,rapists,murderers,and villains were kept in line through the Haunters threat of gruesome death for anyone who stepped out of line. An entire planet ruled by fear of horrific retribuition for criminal transgressions isn't accomplishing anything?In fact I can argue the only thing that screwed that up is the Emperor arriving. Curze and the Night Lords could bring entire planets or sectors into compliance with the threat of their presence. Who else does that? Malcador himself said that Curze was fear incarnate in Lightning Tower. If you don't agree with his tactics that I won't disagree with you. However you can't deny his effectivness. His justification? He forsaw the Imperium's eventual destruction because of a naive belief in the good of men. That's why he joined Horus. He did what he thought was necessary for the Imperium to survive and saw Horus as the only one with the strength of character to rule as the Emperor was indulging in Disney fantasies mired in weakness.That why the Night Lords as a whole shun Chaos as they see it as a weakness of character and focus. Those that fall are looked at with disdain.

If you looked at the movie they sent in Martin Sheen after he kills 3 south viets that he said were spies.The army said he was out of control. All VC activity dropped to nothing in his area operations after the deaths. Some wars can be won through kindness and diplomacy. Some have to be brutal and laced with horror. The scene where he describes the VC cutting off the arms of children who his special forces team had innoculated for polio is classic. He said that these weren't monsters. They were men with families and loved ones,children. He said they had shown him in that moment what would be necessary to break the VC. In that moment he says he saw the way the US was fighting the war was a waste of lives that would never break the VC. In his area all the way up the river, He ruled with fear. Kurtz was seen as an object of fear by the VC as no other American forces were that far and were doing what he was. He became a monster and in the end it broke him and he desired to die as he was aware of what he had become. That's the movie. That's also the story of Conrad Curze and the Imperium.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> Phoebus, if you actually look at Nostramo Quintus it was a model of a compliant world.


No, it wasn't. The whole idea of compliance was:

1. Expeditionary Fleet shows up.
2. World agrees to join the Imperium, peacefully or not.
3. Expeditionary Fleet can leave, with only a modicum of security left behind and a government in place that can provide the requisite tithes to the Imperium.

Curze left Nostramo only for it to rebel once his brand of fear wasn't around. His practices were an utter failure compared to those of other Primarchs, such as Guilliman precisely because no effort borne out of fear can rival one borne out of loyalty.



> However you can't deny his effectivness.


I absolutely can, for the reason stated above. They were wholly unnecessary and disproved by his own contemporaries.



> His justification? He forsaw the Imperium's eventual destruction because of a naive belief in the good of men.


I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. He certainly didn't have completely prophetic abilities. He almost definitely did not have knowledge of Kor Phaeron and Erebus' complicity in steering Lorgar to Chaos, or their efforts to corrupt Horus. That was the whole impetus behind the Heresy. It had nothing to do with "good men" and their practices failing the Imperium. 



> That's why he joined Horus. He did what he thought was necessary for the Imperium to survive and saw Horus as the only one with the strength of character to rule as the Emperor was indulging in Disney fantasies mired in weakness.


Were that his belief, he would have been plagued by utter ignorance. But in fact, it's not.

Curze's greatest contributing factor to what he became was that he was raised in a criminal dystopia. That's it. He didn't have this great insight regarding the human psyche of how human society was predestined to work. He was simply traumatized by the only social experience he had ever had. Then, he was given tens of thousands of superhuman warriors, hundreds of planet-crushing warships, and the license to conquer worlds. Surprise-surprise, he decided to apply the only rulebook he had ever known. Absent any real moral convictions or connections to other human beings, when his (limited) prophetic abilities showed him a civil war and the Emperor going after him, he responded in a predictable manner.

The problem with this is that one could just as easily argue that his visions were precisely what they were because they reflected the end-state of a sociopathic killer. Had Curze randomly landed on, I don't know, _a planet not defined by depravity and murder on a global scale,_ then his visions would probably have been something along the lines of "Oh, no! Civil War! And one of my beloved brothers (some other traitor to fill in his spot) murders me! Shit!"



> That why the Night Lords as a whole shun Chaos as they see it as a weakness of character and focus. Those that fall are looked at with disdain.


You can't possibly reconcile this statement with your previous one. Curze thought that the chosen champion of Chaos was the only suitable replacement with the Emperor, but at the same time viewed allegiance to the same as weakness and worthy of disdain?



> If you looked at the movie they sent in Martin Sheen after he kills 3 south viets that he said were spies.The army said he was out of control. All VC activity dropped to nothing in his area operations after the deaths. Some wars can be won through kindness and diplomacy. Some have to be brutal and laced with horror.


Are you in the military? Serious question.

In all honesty, it sounds to me like - again - you're taking at face value the point of view presented by the character you either feel is more sympathetic or demonstrates the most conviction in his course of action. Conviction does not equate with being correct, though.

Going back to my question, I raise this because no one could seriously equate Coppola's vision of a twisted, insane, hobbled man with the effectiveness of an actual Special Forces group (Kurtz's theoretical command). Coppola's priority was to tell you a story, not to depict an accurate portrayal of either how war works in general or how that war went specifically.

If you want to get down to brass tacks, the Viet Cong were ultimately rendered a non-factor after the Tet Offensive. The Special Forces enjoyed tremendous success by developing relationships based on trust and comraderie with friendly tribal groups. By contrast, Viet Nam as a war failed because the majority of the rural population never developed that same level of trust with either the South Vietnamese government or the conventional US forces tasked with securing the countryside. Equally importantly, the North Vietnamese army was able to exploit that lack of rapport and launch campaigns into South Viet Nam thanks to our policies, which precluded an invasion of the North.

A failure to sufficiently terrorize people into submission had nothing to do with losing Viet Nam. Kurtz was a broken, insane man. Curze is a similarly broken, insane man.

Cheers,
P.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

When Curze said his world was compliant I wasn't talking about to the Imperium. He meant it was compliant to the rules of law and order. THAT YOU CAN'T DENY. His entire planet lived in fear of the Night Haunters retribution so they obeyed the laws. Whether you agree with his tactic is not the point. People didn't commit crimes on Nostramo Quintus because they didn't want to get butchered.That is a fact. Whatever else you want to dredge up won't refute the cannon. Your point that it fell back to rebellion is exactly Curze's point. Once the fear of retribuition was taken away humans will act in their base nature. If you haven't please listen to Dark King as he makes this point clear to Rogal Dorn's objections. 

No you can't deny the effectivness Phoebus. His tactics ensured law and order. When he left and the people knew he wasn't around they reverted back to crime. Now if you think another tactic would have made the lawful period last longer I won't argue that.You can't refute that the world became a lawful and safe place under his regin as the Night Haunter. People didn't commit crimes. That's a success. If you have strong police presence in a gang ridden neigborhood with tough laws to enforce crimes will go down. If the police force moves out and the gangs and criminals feel that they no longer will suffer prosecution and they go back to committing crimes how is it logical to say the tactic of a strong presence and strict laws wasn't a effective? Before Curze did anything he said in Dark King he had to get his own "house" in order. They had broken his laws and he showed the imperium the penalty that even his own home planet was not above the law. 

As again you say he didn't see this comming. No I don't mean he didn't forsee Abbaddon wiping his ass before going to Istavaan. He saw the eventual downfall of the Imperium. It's obvious you haven't listened to Dark King or the Lightning Tower. In both books it shows Curze's visions and then Malcador confirming that what Curze saw was correct. I'm not going to argue this as if you want to say Malcador is wrong and your right then that's between you two. I'm just repeating what the second most powerful man in the Imperium and close advisor to the Emperor said. Where's your backing?

Actually your agrument about his joining Horus being ignorance is incorrect. Curze was right about planets rebelling that didn't think they would face any type of imperial sanction. That's a problem even 10k years later. He saw Horus having the force of will to do what was necessary where the Emperor (see Dark King) and weak men thought that benevolence would win people's loyalty. In 40k that is a childish fantasy. The Imperium runs today almost as a model of Curze's brutal tactics. Your saying he wasn't right? What is exterminatus? Whether by Alien,chaos,or some other reason you deem a world cannnot be saved and destroy it. What primarch decided that tactic first? Conrad Curze. Ruling through fear and grinding humans in a bloody regime. Pretty much describes the Imperium. Fear the mutant, fear the xenos,fear the daemon, the Emperor is the only salavation. Curze saw that this would be necessary from the beginning.No he didn't see specifically every detail. He saw what the Imperium would become. Again Dark King. 

I can reconcile that statement easily. I don't think most of the forces Horus had were aware of the warp and the Chaos gods save for Lorgar and Magnus. Like I said he didn't see every detail, only that Horus was the one to save humanity. If you look at the Legion said the same thing. His eventual realization of what he was doing would lead to him destroying humanity completely. Something the Emperor would never do.This act however would save the universe and defeat the gods. You can see in Aurelian that no one except for Magnus is really in depth aware of the nature of the warp. If you've read the Night Lord series you would know that their opinion is the rebellion failed because it was born of madness and not wisdom like they had thought.Unlike many of the other traitos, the Night Lords had never walked in the light of the Emperor as Curze told them. They were always renegades but as time went on it became more and more apparent to the Imperium.Again see Dark King to reiterate how much his own brothers weren't aware of his mind set. 

Finally you couldn't be more wrong. People like to use words without knowing the true meaning. So I'll let you look up the meaning of insane. Then tell me if you believe Kurtz or Curze were unnaware of what they were doing. Horus was insane as in his last breath he returned to sanity and began to cry over what he had done. Curze was fully aware of how far he had gone and why he had crossed the line. He let a assassin decapitate him to vindicate himself of his belief that no one was above the law,even the Primarch of the Night Lords.He ordered his men not to attack M'shen.Why? In my opinion is because she hadn't done anything but deliver a justice he knew he deserved.How is this insanity? The same with Kurtz. Were they broken? Ovcourse. They both were moribund and sullen in character. But they knew what they were doing.That's not insanity. Cruel,ruthless,and monstrous? Yeah. Insane? Look up the definition. 

I was in the 2nd Batt. 75 Ranger Regiment and 5th Stryker Brigade in Ft.Lewis washington. I hope your not about to tell me that violence doesn't solve anything.WW2 was solved with violence as I don't think Hitler was open to negotiations since "the master race" didn't need to. Do I think Night Lord tactics like Tony Poe are effective in war? I'll put it to you like this. You can't hunt two animals the same way like you can pleasure two women the same way. From a DI when I was a boot. I've fought in 2 wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Everything is different. The people in Iraq are Arabs and speak arabic. Afghanistan is a mix of everything from pashtun in the south to tajik and uzbeks in the north and that's just a few of the ethnicities. Iraq is a urban city environment.Afghanistan is a mountainous region that has never trutly been unified. I don't know your record or what you're aware of in the middle east. But when you deal in absolutes is the easiest ways for guys like me to get you. I don't ever rule out using tactics that other may see as brutal in war. I also know that brutal tactics are a moronic endeavor in certain situations where diplomacy can be managed. Now I've never "strung bodies up" or "dropped heads on the enemy." That would be illegal.If you believe other tactics could have been used I propose this. If you have an inner city near you go down there. See if you can get people to drop their guns and stop selling drugs with just kind words.Sure some will, maybe a lot. Some however will require more direct and drastic measures. See, there's no one way to do anything.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Not got time for a full reply now, but for now I'll just say stop being so condescending, it's making you look like an arrogant prick, not saying you are, but that last post just reeked or arrogance and a need to make yourself appear superior. Makes people want to disagree with you.

Just sayin


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I never thought Konrad Curze that insane. But I do believe compared to most of the primarchs, he saw how extreme and gruesome humanity can be. I was quite surprised as to how Konrad Curze got picked on for his actions that he did infront of Dorn. I thought that would have been a typical thing (killing all armed traitors) to do in the Imperium. I could think of about half the loyal and now traitor legions that would do that.

Ultramar, is a system that has been taimed for centuries. I think in a way, thats a totally different type of Imperial world to compare to more recent conquered Imperial Worlds during the Great Crusade.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> Pyschological Warfare -The use of various techniques, such as propaganda and terror, to lower an enemy's morale.


Right, I know this. I don't consider what Night Haunter was *initially* doing to qualify as he was not doing "to lower an enemy's morale", he was doing it to punish the wrong-doer not scare others. 



> I'm sure you think that because he led some slaves in a revolt that's showing tactical thought.


Leading a revolt doesn't necessarily show tactical thought, leading it in the manner that Angron did does though.



> He used things like logistics and topography to his advantage to put his army in the best position to win. That's using strategy.


And that's exactly what Angron did. You continue to ignore the fact that Angron *used solid tactics* in organizing and leading his rebellion. You can substitute your own reality all you like but I'm not going to agree with it because it *goes against what is directly written*. 



> Horus laid out why the bombardment was be used instead of using ground troops. Angron's lust for combat spurred him to attack the loyalists on the ground.


Angron disagreed with Horus' decision (and I beleive you were saying you thought that was intelligent) and rather than debating chose to act on his ideas. That's decisive leadership, something that is quite necessary in warfare, not necessarily blood-lust. Also, as Pheobus mentioned, Angron was pretty far gone to Khorne at this point and was likely not himself. Just look at the difference in character in Kharn between politely talking to Loken and barely being able to grunt out words.



> I believe that Angron favors martial prowess to actual tactics.


He definitely does but that doesn't mean that he doesn't use tactics, just that he doesn't use them excessively.



> Swarming Prospero? Right. This is a complete distortion of the facts. Let's remember his "swarm" began with an call to Magnus to:


So informing the enemy of your arrival, that's your idea of advanced tactics? And making an emotional appeal, and doing things differently for a brother, that's your idea of cold calculating thought? Right...

The simple fact is that the Wolves strategy on Prospero was 'bum-rush the Sons'. That's what they did. It doesn't matter that Russ felt bad about it, that doesn't make his tactics more advanced. 



> I don't see Angron ever have any type of sentimentality for anyone after leaving his slavery.


Which would actually make him a better executioner. One that wouldn't be swayed by bonds of brotherhood.



> Oh by the way, for the guy who said he wasn't trained in fighting you don't know what your talking about. Gladiators are always trained to the maximum in hand to hand and armed combat.


I beleive he was refering to military training. As in tactics, strategy and the like, something he certainly wouldn't have been. Gladiators are trained to fight in a manner designed to provide sport and spectacle, they are not trained to kill nor are any of the 'tactics' they might use particularly applicable to the battle-field.



Deadeye776 said:


> Once the fear of retribuition was taken away humans will act in their base nature.


But you see that's the problem. Night Haunter had to be immediately, physically present in order to pacify the planet. As a galactic conqueror he would not have been able to remain immediately, physically present on any of the world he conquered, which would result in many of them backsliding for the same reason that Nostromo did.

Also, Night Haunter does show signs of delusions, manic-depressive behaviour and clearly deviant moral views; all of which can be viewed as 'insanity' in laymans terms.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Also you realise insanity does not mean whether someone is aware of what they are doing or not? Insane at it's most basic level us to mean someone who is not of a healthy mind, a whole number of disorders can fall under the term insane


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## Preysight (Oct 18, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Not got time for a full reply now, but for now I'll just say stop being so condescending, it's making you look like an arrogant prick, not saying you are, but that last post just reeked or arrogance and a need to make yourself appear superior. Makes people want to disagree with you.
> 
> Just sayin


 
You could say that about so many post here to be honest, I think he made some pretty good points. Glad to a good debate with good points on both sides, I have to see Apocaplyse Now again.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Regardless of whether he made good points or not, theres just no reason to talk down at people, even if others on here do. Look at Phobeus, every post he does is well thought out, reasoned, structured and researched, yet you will never see him insult anyone, disregard people or convey an arrogant tone.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> When Curze said his world was compliant I wasn't talking about to the Imperium. He meant it was compliant to the rules of law and order. THAT YOU CAN'T DENY.


No offense, but the above is a moot point - it's irrelevant. What *is* relevant is the efficacy of his practices where the Imperium is concerned.

That he had immediate military value is undeniable - the fluff states outright that planets would surrender just hearing he was on his way. But the reality of conquest and compliance is not just immediate effect, but the long-term. When it comes to the latter, Curze falls woefully short. His home planet went right back to horrific crime precisely because the Night Haunter never taught them any better: he never showed them how to govern themselves, never introduced any social change, never truly policed people or introduced laws by the people and for the people. He simply scared them out of their wits. Once the source of their fear disappeared, though, they had neither the tools or the motivation to be a proper, lawful society.

So much, then, for his "explanations" to Rogal Dorn in "The Dark King" (a story I have read plenty of times).

Incidentally, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but I'm not sure why this is such a difficult concept to grasp. It's basic sociology.



> No you can't deny the effectivness Phoebus. His tactics ensured law and order. When he left and the people knew he wasn't around they reverted back to crime.


Exactly! Militarily and politically speaking, Curze was a disaster. His tactics ensured that the people brought into compliance would have ZERO loyalty toward the Imperium. The only way they would not overtly work against their new masters is if a state of complete terror and control was imposed over them. People operating under such conditions, though, will never do so to the same degree of efficiency and productivity as people who are truly loyal to their regime. That's not a matter of opinion; *that's historical fact.*



> Now if you think another tactic would have made the lawful period last longer I won't argue that.


I would hope not, since you'd be arguing with *the entire human record.* But if you want to just talk about fictional futuristic dystopias, it's obvious that at least one other Primarch had a much better record than Curze without terrorizing anyone. Guilliman didn't need to terrorize people. His "ideal states" would probably appear as little better than ancient Sparta or modern North Korea to anyone concerned about basic human rights, but at the end of the day the average citizen of planets who fell to the XIII Legion willingly bought into the idea of a militarized "utopia" wherein stoicism, hardship, and military discipline bred a better kind of human who could be proud of his or her part in the Imperium.

Surprise-surprise, Curze's social experiment needed to be exploded after being deprived of a Primarch's constant campaign of terror, but the planets owned by the Ultramarines and by their descendants (see the White Consuls, for instance) are considered models of loyalty and productivity.

With all that in mind, and speaking in a joking manner, how is this even a matter of debate again?



> As again you say he didn't see this comming. No I don't mean he didn't forsee Abbaddon wiping his ass before going to Istavaan. He saw the eventual downfall of the Imperium. It's obvious you haven't listened to Dark King or the Lightning Tower. In both books it shows Curze's visions and then Malcador confirming that what Curze saw was correct. I'm not going to argue this as if you want to say Malcador is wrong and your right then that's between you two. I'm just repeating what the second most powerful man in the Imperium and close advisor to the Emperor said. Where's your backing?


I own those stories.

_"Dorn closed his eyes. 'The Phoenician told me what Curze had told him: the fits, the seizures that had plagued Curze since his childhood on Nostramo, the visions. Curze said he had seen the galaxy in flames, the Emperor’s legacy overthrown, Astartes turning on Astartes. It was all lies, an insult to our creed!'
...
Dorn sat back and breathed out. 'He has haunted me, I confess. All this time, he has haunted me.'
'Because he was right. His visions were true. He saw this Heresy coming in his visions. That is the truth you fear. You wish you had listened.'"_

Now, go back and read my last post.

That's right. Curze knew that the Heresy was going to happen, but he certainly did NOT know the true reasons for the Heresy. None of what I wrote contradicts (or is contradicted by) "The Lightning Tower" or "The Dark King".

As for Curze's belief in Horus, I think it's you who needs to read those stories more closely:

_"In truth he had little memory of what had occurred after Dorn’s storming accusations of insult to the Emperor... the present had faded and the future had seized his mind with agonising visions of a galaxy locked in a cycle of unending war where the alien, the mutant and the rebel arose to feast on the rotting carcass of the Imperium.

This then was the future the Emperor was creating? This was the ultimate destiny of a galaxy where the fear of punishment was not the agent of control. This was the inevitable result of allowing weak men to craft the destiny of Mankind and Curze knew that, of all the primarchs, only one had the force of will required to mould the new Imperium from the soft clay of its
present form."_

Curze is, in fact, having visions of an Imperium that will be created *precisely because* of Horus' rebellion. _He's helping bring about everything he's afraid of._



> The Imperium runs today almost as a model of Curze's brutal tactics.


The worst of the Imperium's planets are run as a combination of Curzeian brutality and Lorgarite dogma. This is because the Emperor was crippled and removed from direct power, and was replaced by paranoid theocrats who did a complete 180 from policies. But even in the 41st millennium, Ultramar and other similar planets prove that you don't need to run the Imperium like a church-factory of slaves to succeed.



> I can reconcile that statement easily.


Oh, come on, man! As early as Isstvan V, it should have been patently obvious to Curze that Horus was absolutely marching with Chaos! :grin:



> Finally you couldn't be more wrong. People like to use words without knowing the true meaning. So I'll let you look up the meaning of insane. Then tell me if you believe Kurtz or Curze were unnaware of what they were doing.


I would again recommend that you follow your own advice. Not understanding that what you're doing can be classified as insane hardly excludes you from being insane. In fact, many people plagued by a variety of disorders act on calculated, meticulous plans.

Oh, and not to sound like a smartass, but... _blacking out and going into a violent frenzy where you almost kill someone_ usually means that you suffer from some form of mental/psychological disorder or another.



> I was in the 2nd Batt. 75 Ranger Regiment and 5th Stryker Brigade in Ft.Lewis washington.


Then, no offense, you should know better.



> I hope your not about to tell me that violence doesn't solve anything.WW2 was solved with violence ...


Yup, that's half the answer. And, no doubt, just as the Imperium was brutal in bringing worlds into compliance, the Allies were also brutal in prosecuting their war. See, for instance, the wholesale bombing of civilian populations that were nonetheless complicit to the Nazi regime.

AFTERWARDS, however, what did the Allies - and the US specifically, through the Marshall Plan - do? They transformed Germany and Japan into their closest post-war economic and (other than Great Britain) military allies.

And that's exactly the part of the fight that Curze fails at.

I'm (sadly) well aware of Afghanistan and Iraq. I've spent the last decade going back and forth to those places. I stick by my words. The record and the practices of the SOCOM community are what they are precisely because running around mutilating and terrorizing a population wholesale doesn't do anything for you when you're trying to integrate said people into an efficient, cooperative, loyal whole.

It's because of those understood known facts that Curze's story plays out the way it does. He becomes the Night Haunter because he was raised in a horrific dystopia, not because he objectively decided that this was his best course of action. He would have never become the Night Haunter had he landed in, say, Ultramar. Nor would he have thought that the Night Haunter's methods were the only right ones because his formative years and education would have shown him that people are more than capable of an ordered, lawful society without being terrorized into being thus.

But that's not where he landed, and thus that's not what he learned. He takes the lessons he knows and applies them to the rest of his life. He doesn't learn any better because he's damaged goods - he repeats the cycle of hurt and fear just as people who are badly beaten as children often become abusive parents themselves.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Did his results stick? No, once he left it fell back into crime and villainy. However, you can't deny that they were effective in producing the results. I'm not getting into whether they were right or wrong. They worked. His entire planet was a place of villains and lawlessness. To awake as a child within a planet consumed in crime would produce someone who had a strong adversion to weakness and kindness. Would the Imperium's tactics of benevolence work on Nostramo? No, I don't believe so. If you look at the general politcian almost everyone on it was involved in some sort of criminal activity from corruption and murder to rape and stealing. It's difficult to show the light of illumination when the planet your dealing with is in almost constant state of darkness metaphorically and literally. 

As for Angron's tactical acumen I don't see it. That's my opinion. If you feel that his decision shows his own strategic ability that's fine. I myself don't agree with it because it looks like battle lust he felt that the bombardment would rob him of. In the audio drama Raven Flight I believe Corax's profile of why Angron turned to be right on. He wanted to just be free of his imperial collar to indulge in unfettered bloodlust for the sake of killing in itself. So whatever you like to see is fine,but I've listed the reason I feel this way about Angron. 

The fact that you used the term swarm is why I listed Russ's actions. It wasn't a "swarm." It was an execution. The didn't just hurl themselves at the TS. Russ was asking him to submit to justice and die honorably. I don't know if you didn't get that.He was trying to give him a quick and peacful death. He wasn't mad with him or raging like some lobotomized moron. He was appealing to him to atone for what he'd done.I myself believe Magnus to be a tragic story which Russ even though he wasn't fully aware of everything was empathetic to his brothers plight. He knew he had to kill him but he didn't want it to be bloody for anyone. Again this was an execution,not a military action. It was a lawful (though bullshit order he got from Horus) order he'd recieved before and he didn't want to get into a whole war. Obviously things went south once they made planet fall.


ef·fec·tive
adjective 
1. 
adequate to accomplish a purpose; producing the intended or expected result: effective teaching methods; effective steps toward peace. 

This defition is from dictionary.com. If you look at it is exactly what I've been saying since we are going back and forth.Nothing about right or wrong. Did Conrad Curze's efforts on Nostramo produce the intended result? Yes. His philosophy of the fear of retribution keeping planets in line was first demonstrated on his. When that fear was taken away is when the planet fell. Whether he's right or wrong is moral discussion.I'm saying was it effective when put into practical application. The answer is yes. His planet fell into line when he scared them. I don't see how you can question that.


insane [ɪnˈseɪn]
adj
1.
a. mentally deranged; crazy; of unsound mind
b. (as collective noun; preceded by the) the insane
2. (Psychology) characteristic of a person of unsound mind an insane stare
3. irresponsible; very foolish; stupid
insanely adv

This one is from the free dictionary.com site. Now because someone says some you don't understand doesn't make them insane as the primarchs thought of Curze.He was having visions of the future and his death almost every night. Was Curze stupid,foolish,or irresponsible? Curze from childhood showed a cleverness others would dream of. He crawled out of his pod naked,alone,and unarmed. No training and teachings were given to him. He rose to became a figure of fear and order on an entire planet. The only other guy who showed this kind of survival in my opinion is the Lion.Curze is not insane. I don't think that alibi would apply to him. He knows what he was doing from the beginning. When he went into the realm of being what he believed was criminal he allowed himself to be shown the same harsh justice he had inflicted on others. Those aren't the acts of an insane man. Rational? That I'll leave to debate. Broken? I believe in the end or maybe from the beginning he believed he already was.He was never a jovial figure and was described as moribund. He was always broken from his environment. 


Now as for the personal comments. I'm not going to get into whether you agree with the tactics we've employed globally. This isn't American Idol so your opinions are relevant only to you as far as I'm concerned. Violence and Peace are two opposite tactcs like I said both are necessary. To say that what we've done creates terrorist is interesting. I would say that if a SWAT team of a PD came into a drug house and cleared it killing someone brother and they became a criminal bent on killing cops,would you say the police tactics of SWAT are wrong? Every action carries consequence including innaction. Debating these things will get you blue in the face so I don't care to. If they want to continue indulging in tactics that are brutal and criminal then we will respond in kind. Whether you agree with that is your opinion. I will advise you to drop it as nothing you will say,to me at least, will change my mind on the subject. The fact that we have to different view points is what is the spirit of debate,but in this it's a moot point because I honestly couldn't care less about the people we go after and the effects it has on them. That's just me, I'm not speaking for everyone in the armed forces. 

If you feel like I'm being condescending than by all means,feel free to see the above. If you don't like being talked down to (which I don't feel like I was doing,but it's your opinion) than feel free to not respond to my posts. So far one guy told me I should shut up as he figured I'd seen some stupid comic book movie as a historical reference.He never asked what I was a using he just suggested I shut up. Pheobus thinks that saying "no offense, you should know better" is something that isn't offensive because he said no offense. "Your an idiot,no offense" is still an offensive statement so why bother with the no offense? Man up and just say your an idiot. Now I haven't personally insulted anyone on here. If I told you to look up a definition to use it correctly or check out a story I'm referencing I don't see how that's condescending. However if you think I'm being a prick, then let me correct you, I am a prick. My behavior on here hasn't gone into the realm of antagonistic as I'm not telling anyone to "fuck off" or "shut up."I defend my points, forcefully, but intellgently. If that's being a prick, feel free to look away.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think we are being to tough on Curze. For one thing, I fear that we are making the assumption that humanity for the first part is all ready to go with the Emperor's Imperium. 

I seriously doubt that all the worlds in compliance really want to join the band wagon willingingly. Curze getting most of the currupted worlds. Though we don't know all the worlds that Guilliman took, we should look at most of them as already enlightened worlds. Which the worlds of the Ultramar were. Not a good comparison.

That little story in Wolf at the Door, shows that during the heresy, despite the Emperor's intent to reunite mankind, it didn't matter, people in different worlds had their own plans. Especially since the Emperor and his Imperium made the galaxy a much safer place for humans to live. Curze's worlds were not the only ones.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Sorry but the definitions you gave for insane apply to Curze. He was most definetly, without a doubt of an unsound mind, no one can deny that, he went into a psychotic episode, blacked out and almost murdered Dorn and didn't remember a thing. His visions of the future were driving him to the brink, always fatalist vision, never anything good. He doesn't have to fit all 3 definitions that website gives to be categorised as insane, only 1. And i would say he is irresponsible, he makes a world 'compliant' then leaves it to degenerate back into its old ways or worse at times i would wager.

As for his methods being effective, of if we're going to go on the immediate result he wanted, then yes, they were effective at bringing the planet into a bloody, terror induced compliance. But it was a shit result, one that wouldn't last, would not make for a productive planet or a very loyal one at that, destined to fall into violence again the moment he left. So effective on a very, very short term, perhaps. Complete fail in every other regard.


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## Emperors Mercy (Oct 31, 2011)

Wow... leave the forums for 3 days and everyone is mad at everyone lol. 

I have to agree with Deadeye that Russ was in fact sympathetic to his brothers plight and he did try to call him out. And Magnus didn't exactly fight back and took his punishment. He sat in his tower while his boys died. When he fled He took what he had left with him. 

However as a point to insanity, think of men like Jeffery Dahmer. Ponder whether or not he was insane? His crime was going to clubs and picking up a gay minority male. They would return to his home where eventually he would kill them, butcher them, eat them. To clean up he would even put their bones in hydrochloric acid. And he did it quite a few times. Now does insanity mean you don't do something intellegently? I guess thats down to your personal opinions. 

Now Phoebus, my question is was the governor on Nostormo an effective governor. Did he sit back and let the crime rates rise? I mean if someone ran into my office and said, "there are riots in the streets" don't you think that as a leader you might want to do something about it. I agree Curze is conducting his own war. But in regards to effectiveness, do we have a record on how many other of his worlds turned on him compliance?

Deadeye, Gates of Fire is a phenominal book, once it touches your hands you can't put it down. I just wanted to say thanks for bringing it up. And thank you for your service.

Phoebus, thank you for your service, I don't know what you do, but The Sands are not exactly the best trip in the world. 

You both take care and stay safe.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

MEQinc said:


> Night Haunter does show signs of delusions, manic-depressive behaviour and clearly deviant moral views; all of which can be viewed as 'insanity' in laymans terms.


Just like Batman.:victory:


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> The fact that you used the term swarm is why I listed Russ's actions. It wasn't a "swarm." It was an execution. The didn't just hurl themselves at the TS. Russ was asking him to submit to justice and die honorably.


Yes, Russ asked him to submit and when Magnus didn't Russ and the Wolves swarmed him. The did hurl themselves at the Sons, that's clearly shown in _A Thousand Sons_. 

Note that I'm not saying that it wasn't an execution, I'm saying the two aren't mutually exclusive. And personnally I think the WE can perform the brutal swarming part just as well as the SW.



> ef·fec·tive
> adjective
> 1.
> adequate to accomplish a purpose; producing the intended or expected result: effective teaching methods; effective steps toward peace.
> ...


No. Assuming that the intended result was to actually improve his people or provide them with faith in a legal system. Night Haunter temporarily altered the behaviour of his people but he clearly did not alter the way they thought or the way they would behave in the long term. His presence masked the syptoms but it clearly had no lasting effects on the disease itself. Speaking medically, would you call that an effective treatment?



> insane [ɪnˈseɪn]
> adj
> 1.
> a. mentally deranged; crazy; of unsound mind


I'm sorry but as AoB has mentioned that describes Curze pretty well. He suffers from blackouts, irrational rage and manic-depressive episodes (and a possible split-personality) all of which are indicators of a potential mental disorder.



Khorne's Fist said:


> Just like Batman.


Exactly.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> Did his results stick? No, once he left it fell back into crime and villainy. However, you can't deny that they were effective in producing the results.


I really don't see how this continues to be a circular argument. No, they were not effective. He did not produce worlds that were loyal, productive members of the Imperium.



> Would the Imperium's tactics of benevolence work on Nostramo? No, I don't believe so.


Well, that's one problem right there: you seem to think the Imperium of the thirty-first millennium operated on a benign level. :wink:

Beyond my attempt at humor, though, you're offering extremely narrow conjecture. Did the regime of Administrator-regent Balthius fail? Clearly. Was it in any way set for success? No, not at all. The Night Haunter was so focused on just quashing crime via fear and violence, that he never set up any institutions to lead to a better day. He didn't fix the problem, he merely _suppressed the effects._



> As for Angron's tactical acumen I don't see it. That's my opinion. If you feel that his decision shows his own strategic ability that's fine.


I already gave you my examples, but here they go again:

1. "After Desh'ea" shows that Angron is capable of intuitively recognizing and analyzing tactics. That he still favors the melee at that point is obvious, but his acumen is there to be seen.
2. The Index Astartes and the same short story both show that he was able to fight a protracted guerilla campaign against a foe superior in mobility, equipment, and numbers.

On that basis, I don't think anyone can dispute Angron's tactical ability. And, again, I think that when he joined Horus and succumbed to the lure of Khorne (circa "False Gods"), his concern for fighting wars properly (by that I mean taking into concern tactical considerations, using supporting assets, artillery, etc.) gradually decreased until, by the Siege of Terra, his Legion was defined by Berzerkers to whom anything other than the taking of skulls was secondary consideration.

All that is tactical (or operational), though. Strategic ability? I would argue that there's very little evidence of strategic ability given for most of the Primarchs. You have Perturabo's plans to re-define the global battlefield in "After Desh'ea", for example. You have the Lion's attempt to end the Heresy before it hits full stride by denying Horus those siege weapons in "Fallen Angel", to name another. Off the top of my head, though, I can't remember too many such examples.



> This defition is from dictionary.com. If you look at it is exactly what I've been saying since we are going back and forth.Nothing about right or wrong. Did Conrad Curze's efforts on Nostramo produce the intended result? Yes.


No, they didn't. The intended result was to produce compliant, willing, loyal worlds for the Imperium. He did not meet that objective. I don't care about right or wrong.



> This one is from the free dictionary.com site. Now because someone says some you don't understand doesn't make them insane as the primarchs thought of Curze.


Generic definitions will always give you generic answers, though. What about looking up the mental derangements and disorders that are associated with sociopaths, psychopaths, how dissociative identities work, or how violence and selective amnesia often go hand-in-hand? These are all examples of insanity that go beyond the popular image of someone who is insane. Many "insane" people are utterly unaware of their problem. Others are ruthlessly driven to do things you and I could never consider proper in a sane, lawful society - and they do them in a calculating, planned manner.



> Now as for the personal comments. I'm not going to get into whether you agree with the tactics we've employed globally.


My opinion is meaningless. What I was pointing out was the efficacy of the Marshall Plan, which isn't exactly up for debate. That it succeeded goes without saying.



> To say that what we've done creates terrorist is interesting.


I never said that, so you saying I did so is interesting as well (I suppose).



> I would say that if a SWAT team of a PD came into a drug house and cleared it killing someone brother and they became a criminal bent on killing cops,would you say the police tactics of SWAT are wrong?


What I would say is that _the government_ that is responsible for the SWAT team would be wrong if *the sum of their efforts* extended to just using lethal force against criminals without taking any other effort to ensure the security and general betterment of the society they're in charge of.

And that's more or less what Curze is guilty of.



> Pheobus thinks that saying "no offense, you should know better" is something that isn't offensive because he said no offense. "Your an idiot,no offense" is still an offensive statement so why bother with the no offense? Man up and just say your an idiot.


That's the thing: I don't think you're an idiot, but I still think you should know better. Why did I say you should know better? Because as a former member of the Regiment, I would have imagined you were involved intimately enough with how we did business over there to understand why Kurtz's "style of command" flew in the face of everything a Special Forces Group would consider as valid tactics for fighting their enemy while trying to bring civilians over to their side.

But if you think I'm secretly calling you names, I can't do anything for you. Some people just mean what they say. When I say "no offense", I do so because it's not always guaranteed that the tone you intend will come through the written word on the internet.

Similarly, I don't think you're being a prick. I just don't think you're right. Like I said earlier, I think you maybe have a tendency to take to heart the point of view of certain characters on account of the conviction they demonstrate in their "cause" (if you will). Lots of people do that. I love "Gates of Fire", but ultimately Leonidas and other select characters try to convince the reader - in their most moving speeches - of the merits of the society they're willing to die for. But conviction does not equate to being right. Just because a fictional character says something is right doesn't mean that's the case. Leonidas, in this case, is trying to sell you on "fighting for freedom" when the society he is willing to die for exists by enslaving perhaps ten times the number of his fellow peers and their families. Curze tries to convince the reader that terrorizing and brutalizing people is the only way to ensure order. Neither is right.



Emperors Mercy said:


> Now Phoebus, my question is was the governor on Nostormo an effective governor. Did he sit back and let the crime rates rise? I mean if someone ran into my office and said, "there are riots in the streets" don't you think that as a leader you might want to do something about it.


I don't think there's that much information regarding that governor. We just know his regime failed. My personal opinion? He was probably completely unprepared for what Nostramo really was. The Imperium probably saw a place with zero crime rate and everyone walking around scared and thought, "great". They then probably instituted what they thought was a reasonable amount of police force and administration and took off. Once the Nostramans saw that they outnumbered the Imperial police and military and that the Haunter wasn't around, they went nuts.

That's precisely what happens when you suppress symptoms without addressing root causes. It's why social workers dealing with the phenomenon of inner city violence have consistently pointed out that there is a need to ensure legitimate security, providing education and job opportunities, and ensuring that there is an honest rapport between local government and the population.

Yeah, "Gates of Fire" is absolutely amazing!

Thanks for your support, incidentally. 

Cheers,
P.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Well Phoebus, I believe we can agree to disagree. Thought I've defined the word effective and shown my example you seem to still disagree. I don't know anything that lasts forever without an active effort to maintain it. There are degrees of effectivness.Somethings are more effective then others. The fact you think he hasn't produced any compliant worlds is completely not backed by any of his cannon. In fact it was the Night Lords that kept worlds compliant according to the Black Library. The Haunter Knew that it would require constant vigilance just like the 40k of present to keep these worlds in line. His world of Nostramo was the perfect example. Just because the effects didn't stick didn't mean they weren't effective at all. They weren't AS effective as you would like. I would propose to find out how many worlds other legions conquered that had to be reinforced later on. I think the best one I can think of is Davin. 

Without the presence of the Imperium Chaos was able to slip in and corrupt the planet and its govenor. This is something that would become common place. Would you say that the tactic the Sons of Horus used to conquer Davin inneffective? Ovcourse not.When you are conquering you have to garrison and maintain order. That's where the Haunter was based in reality and the Imperium was in idealistic fantasy. The Haunter saw what they were doing and it was conquering. The primarchs like Dorn thought they were "liberating" these worlds. In some cases that may be true,but it was usually military force that "liberated" a planet and ironically brought it under the rule of the Imperium. They were conquering planet and expecting gratitude. The way the Imperium runs today is completely just as the Night Haunter forsaw. 

The Haunter was an untrained pysker. His bouts and illness all stem from his horrible visions of his death and the nightmare the imperium would become. If you forsaw your death every day for all of your life and knew the organization you serve would be instrumental in creating a nightmare universe you would have problems too. Was he insane? No. He had fits do to him BEING A psyker. All of his episodes happened when his powers were in use. He wasn't licking windows. He was aware and sane enought to know that his tactics had crossed the line and let submitted himself to the code he lived by. I still haven't seen this as insanity.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Insanity is a legal term used purely in a court of law to dictate if some one is liable to stand trial for the full brunt of their charges, or if the qualify for a lesser degree of what they have been charged.

Insanity has nothing to do with the actually description of ones mental health or mental mal-adaption.

Moving on to the subject at hand, I think every point of view in this topic is relevant, do I believe any point of view is objectively right or wrong? No. I believe each of you has stated their view based upon your own contextual perception, of what is effective, efficient and what is not effective and efficient. 

For a living...I work in statistical analysis and evaluation, what is statistically effective and efficient varies from company to company based upon their goals and needs. Was Conrad Effective and efficient in doing what the Imperium of the time needed him to do?

I would say yes, he brought down worlds in rapid sequence, and maintained order. In any civilization, colony, if the presence of consequence, power, is not present that colony/city/society usually and very quickly defects from those things which do not align with their point of view which generally happens to be anything not pertaining to their own gain.

Conrad saw things from a very logical perspective, he saw that humans by nature are selfish and motivated by greed. He also saw that in any society a constant presence of consequence is necessary in order to enforce and maintain a ruling governing entity's laws and rules of normality.

Why did Nostramo (keep in mind one planet out of hundreds or thousands that the nightlords conquered) revert back to a ruthless and cruel state of living? Well likely due to that a logistics error was made and not enough presence of consequence was stationed at that planet. Conrad had no way of no knowing how much to invest in that planet to replace the lack of his own presence, seeing as he raised the bar of normality to an extremely high level by using his own self as the variable of consequence.

Even though once he left he may have left a variable of consequence there equal to other planets he conquered post leaving nostramo, because he himself raised the level so highly prior to his departure, that lower level after in comparison to the haunter level is what caused the populace to rebel. They had been conditioned to a certain level of electrocution (voltage), giving them a lower level equal to other planets wont be as effective due to that they have become habituated to a much higher level.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I don't agree with your definition as being declared insane can happen with no legal proceedings if you have the right mental health specialist. The same can be said for being a sociopath which is a social disorder. While these terms are used a lot in the legal profession it is not a purely legal term. Actually the term being used in the legal profession came from in the past people who were actually mentally disabled being put to death instead of taken care of. So no it's not a purely legal term. If you'd like to refute this please look at this excerpt from the Journal of The American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law. http://www.jaapl.org/content/33/2/252.full. In it fully documents how the psychiatrists recognized and documented the Mental Illness of insanity. Not lawyers. They did this to help people who suffered from this mental disorder.Not win court cases for legal professionals. The fact that people were able to be saved who were not responsible for the actions on trial was a by-product. The term insanity is a pure psychiatric term as only a psychiatrist can declare you insane,not a lawyer.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> Well Phoebus, I believe we can agree to disagree. Thought I've defined the word effective and shown my example you seem to still disagree.


I have no problem agreeing to disagree. Most people tend to offer that right before embarking on a whole new post, but I suppose that's life on forums. So I guess I'll say as much before I embark on my own post: let's agree to disagree... but let me offer a rebuttal first. :wink:

It's really quite simple in my eyes. Let's say you have two choices:

1. You could bring a world into the Imperium using a number of different tools - propaganda, improving the infrastructure, bolstering the economy, bringing in law and order, etc. - and thus develop a loyal population that works hard and fights hard for the Emperor willingly.

2. Or you could terrorize the crap out of everyone, brutalize them, and murder and mutilate people as a way of making an example. You would have a population that fears you, hates you, and will likely only do anything for you because they absolutely have to. You will have to ensure that this merciless pace of abuse continues because the day you lift those conditions the people will turn on you - rightfully so - in a heartbeat.

You're right; there are varying degrees of efficacy. As in, "very efficient". Or "somewhat efficient". Or the less popular, "hardly efficient at all". Konrad Curze's tactics were about as efficient as one can be when their whole plan rests on example #2, above. As in, _not very efficient at all._ As in, congratulations, we're trying to bring Humanity together and get them to buy into this grand notion of Unity and Imperium, and we really don't see why you have to try so hard to make all our prospective subjects hate us abjectly. This, especially when your own peers *have made it abundantly clear that your ideology and belief system regarding human loyalty is clearly flawed.* Because, surprise-surprise, *the planets you didn't conquer aren't erupting in rebellion when other Primarchs leave.* :wink:

Could Curze have been less efficient? I suppose so. He could have lost his wars. Alternately, he could have gotten lost and not found planets at all. I'm kidding, I'm kidding, but at the end of the day I think he did more harm than good to any planet he found and only created more work for the Imperium.

The irony of it all, of course, is that Curze's "prophecy" about the masses turning on authority became a _self-fulfilling prophecy_ when he helped make possible the very rebellion he claimed would occur if people didn't do like him. A rebellion that DIDN'T happen until he and his eight brothers decided to go about their course.



> I would propose to find out how many worlds other legions conquered that had to be reinforced later on. I think the best one I can think of is Davin.


How many indeed? Really, the only examples of human worlds rebelling or being disloyal after becoming Compliant (that I can think of off the top of my head) are various worlds occupied by Perturabo (and subsequently garrisoned by a handful of Iron Warriors) and Sarosh, from "Descent of Angels".

And we should realize that both of the examples above come with a massive pair of caveats. The first is that Perturabo was a very bitter individual who was shown from his youth to be distrusting, volatile, and bitter. I'm going to go ahead and bet that he didn't exactly approach Compliance with the diplomacy and political insight (most of) his other brothers were known for. The second is that Sarosh was a world already involved in secret Chaos worship, and wasn't even fully Compliant to begin with.



> Without the presence of the Imperium Chaos was able to slip in and corrupt the planet and its govenor. This is something that would become common place.


No. Did you miss the part where the Chaplains of the Word Bearers had been instrumental to getting the people to come to their side, or that Kor Phaeron was left behind after the Luna Wolves left... to help smooth the transition to Compliance?

Chaos didn't just "slip in". Chaos was *invited in* by one of the individuals who was in on the buildup to the Heresy from day one. Davin is not at all indicative of how the Legions worked or the efficacy of their efforts.



> The way the Imperium runs today is completely just as the Night Haunter forsaw.


Again, no. First of all, the Imperium is not uniform. Different worlds run differently. As much as I wish that the Black Library fiction showed more "grimdark", not every planet is like Armageddon or Necromunda.

Second, you're missing a key ingredient. While the signature Imperial planet may very well treat its citizens like brainwashed slaves, the majority of humans even on such planets _really do buy into the Imperial Cult._ They don't just bust their asses out of fear. They venerate and celebrate the Emperor, and see their efforts as part of his order. They don't just work because they're afraid the Arbites will mutilate, or murder them.

Third, he only foresaw the Imperium as it is because his limited, flawed prescience _showed him the Imperium he and his brothers would create by rebelling._ That is, the Imperium didn't become what it is today on account of not following "The Konrad Curze Template"; it became what it is precisely because he rebelled.



> Was he insane? No. He had fits do to him BEING A psyker.


Like I said, you don't have to take my word for it. Do some more research on the various disorders that fall under the generic term "insanity". You don't have to be "licking windows" to be crazy. Some disorders set people to be inimically opposed to the proper structures, order, and morals of society as we know it. Others leave them unable to empathize with their fellow human being. Others drive them to frightful bouts of violence that they can't even remember (gee, that sounds familiar).


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## Jerushee (Nov 18, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> I don't agree with your definition as being declared insane can happen with no legal proceedings if you have the right mental health specialist. The same can be said for being a sociopath which is a social disorder. While these terms are used a lot in the legal profession it is not a purely legal term. Actually the term being used in the legal profession came from in the past people who were actually mentally disabled being put to death instead of taken care of. So no it's not a purely legal term. If you'd like to refute this please look at this excerpt from the Journal of The American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law. http://www.jaapl.org/content/33/2/252.full. In it fully documents how the psychiatrists recognized and documented the Mental Illness of insanity. Not lawyers. They did this to help people who suffered from this mental disorder.Not win court cases for legal professionals. The fact that people were able to be saved who were not responsible for the actions on trial was a by-product. The term insanity is a pure psychiatric term as only a psychiatrist can declare you insane,not a lawyer.


Food for thought


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I present this argument then. The Imperium presented this notion of enlightenment and truth and progressive thought? Even Horus said their persecution of the alien was a problem. Look at it. They destroyed civilization that had intermingled or made peace with the xenos. Why? Because it made them impure. I won't argue with you anymore about Curze's tactics as it's a matter of opinion. I will say that the Imperium itself in it's Crusade even without Curze was bloody and brutal. From a standpoint you can say that they enslaved worlds that were inahbited by humans under the guise of "liberating them." The worlds that were doing just fine and thriving were shown the same. If you didn't want anything to do with them you would be "liberated." That's complete and utter bullshit which is what I think Curze saw. If your forcing others to joing you that's called conquering not liberation. They conquered worlds and conquered worlds need to be kept in line. Liberated worlds would be thankful for your aid and show you gratitude.A world that had refused your presence would be resentful and after a while rebellious. 

The Imperium believed that their "liberation" of these worlds was the best thing that these worlds could do. They forced this on worlds that would submit freely. After generations of ruling yourself now you had to submit to a power light years away.Curze saw that the tactics of Dorn,Gulliman,and the other more "noble" primarchs was naive and bullshit. He was right. If the Imperium had offered and not forced enlightenment on these worlds I would say Curze was wrong as they had chosen to serve. The fact that it was forced made him right,they had conquered these people. The cultures they had before were outlawed and all religions abolished. Even without Curze the Imperium itself indulged in tactics that they naively believed would unite humanity.No wonder Curze rebelled, that's ignorance in the most dangerous fashion.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

What I don't get is how everyone calls it an execution, but they let a large group of thousand sons escape, including the primarch. Why didn't Russ kill Magnus when he had the chance? I mean, he broke his back. He could have finished it right there.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

jaysen said:


> What I don't get is how everyone calls it an execution, but they let a large group of thousand sons escape, including the primarch. Why didn't Russ kill Magnus when he had the chance? I mean, he broke his back. He could have finished it right there.


What do you mean "let"? Possibly a 10th of the legion made it out alive, and what few did make it out were chased into a warp portal by the 13th company, who has been at that for a couple hundred years (shut up, time doesn't function the same in the warp as it does in real space). Also, what the fuck do you think Russ was planning on doing? Play patty cake with Magnus?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> I present this argument then. The Imperium presented this notion of enlightenment and truth and progressive thought? Even Horus said their persecution of the alien was a problem. Look at it. They destroyed civilization that had intermingled or made peace with the xenos. Why? Because it made them impure. I won't argue with you anymore about Curze's tactics as it's a matter of opinion. I will say that the Imperium itself in it's Crusade even without Curze was bloody and brutal. From a standpoint you can say that they enslaved worlds that were inahbited by humans under the guise of "liberating them." The worlds that were doing just fine and thriving were shown the same. If you didn't want anything to do with them you would be "liberated." That's complete and utter bullshit which is what I think Curze saw. If your forcing others to joing you that's called conquering not liberation. They conquered worlds and conquered worlds need to be kept in line. Liberated worlds would be thankful for your aid and show you gratitude.A world that had refused your presence would be resentful and after a while rebellious.
> 
> The Imperium believed that their "liberation" of these worlds was the best thing that these worlds could do. They forced this on worlds that would submit freely. After generations of ruling yourself now you had to submit to a power light years away.Curze saw that the tactics of Dorn,Gulliman,and the other more "noble" primarchs was naive and bullshit. He was right. If the Imperium had offered and not forced enlightenment on these worlds I would say Curze was wrong as they had chosen to serve. The fact that it was forced made him right,they had conquered these people. The cultures they had before were outlawed and all religions abolished. Even without Curze the Imperium itself indulged in tactics that they naively believed would unite humanity.No wonder Curze rebelled, that's ignorance in the most dangerous fashion.


Sorry but what? The worlds the likes of Guilliman, Dorn and in the most extreme case Lorgar(who utterly believed in the Imperium until his fall) were some of the most loyal worlds in the Imperium, even ones that had to be made compliant, hardly naive and bullshit now is it when it was proven to produce shining results. Unlike Kurze, whose own homeworld didn't even stay in line, where as the others, especially the ones you claim are naive and full of shit, were possibly the most loyal and staunch worlds outside of Terra itself.



jaysen said:


> What I don't get is how everyone calls it an execution, but they let a large group of thousand sons escape, including the primarch. Why didn't Russ kill Magnus when he had the chance? I mean, he broke his back. He could have finished it right there.


I take it you missed the part where Magnus made a pact with Tzeentch and warped his ass out of there before Russ could finish him?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> They conquered worlds and conquered worlds need to be kept in line. Liberated worlds would be thankful for your aid and show you gratitude.A world that had refused your presence would be resentful and after a while rebellious.


And yet there is absoulutely tons of evidence that these worlds could be made not resentful and would not rebel. The Night Lords were not the only force involved in the Crusade and yet hundreds of thousands (if not more) of worlds were brought into the Imperium by force and made to stay through truely believing they were better off (and generally they were). Fear can be an effective method but it is hardly the only one.



> Curze saw that the tactics of Dorn,Gulliman,and the other more "noble" primarchs was naive and bullshit. He was right. If the Imperium had offered and not forced enlightenment on these worlds I would say Curze was wrong as they had chosen to serve. The fact that it was forced made him right,they had conquered these people.


While I'll agree that in many ways some of the Primarchs can be naive or hypocritical the fact that the Imperium used force (because they believed it was for the greater good) does not in any way justify Curze's opinions. Indeed by forcing compliance and then affecting that compliance without resorting to mutilations and terror campaigns other Primarchs perfectly demonstrated to Curze that there were other methods which were just as effective as his own.

Curze believed he was right, and seized on every possible scrap of evidence to support his world view, but there was also plenty of evidence which he ignored because it directly contradicted him. It's called confirmation bais, Curze saw in humanity what he wanted to see, and in many ways his behaviour evoked that response.



Deadeye776 said:


> The term insanity is a pure psychiatric term as only a psychiatrist can declare you insane,not a lawyer.


Clinical insanity is a psychiatric term, but even that is seldom used. People use insanity as a term all the time, and generally don't mean the clinical definition. When people say things in conversation they mean them in the sense that they are generally understood, not necessarily in the strict proffesional definition. When I say 'he's insane' I don't mean 'he has been diagnosed with a psychiatric disorder which effects his behaviour and perception of the world' I mean 'he's acting strangely'. It's shorthand. 

But beside that, Curze really does have numerous symptoms that are indicative of a psychological disorder. 
Here are some symptoms of Anti-social personality disorder: Repeatedly violating the rights of others, Child abuse or neglect, Intimidation of others, Aggressive or violent behavior, Lack of remorse about harming others, Impulsive behavior, Agitation, Poor or abusive relationships, Irresponsible work behavior. 
I think that pretty accurately desribes Curze.



Deadeye776 said:


> He had fits do to him BEING A psyker. All of his episodes happened when his powers were in use.


While the fits can be blamed on his psykic visions they are hardly the only evidence of his mental disorders, which were not confined to specific 'episodes' but rather influence his entire pattern of behaviour. Further, the exact source of his insanity is not relivant. Yes it was likely influenced by his constant visions of a bad future but certainly his increadibly traumic childhood, neglectful and absusive relationship with his father-figure and general social isolation will have all also played a role. Regardless, he still clearly shows behaviour and a mentallity that deviates wildly from the cultural norm (even of his own violent home culture) and possesses numerous symptoms that could be used to diagnose a mental disorder. Curze is insane, no ifs ands or buts.


Edit:
Just to add that I feel Curze and the Night Lords chose to sacrifice effectiveness for efficiency. Fear is easier to create than love and obedience through fear is far easier to enact than obedience through love. By abusing, mutilating and punishing their targets the Night Lords created obedience and compliance (at least in surface behaviour) far swifter than other Legions, utilizing 'nicer' methods, would be able to.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I wanted to throw this out, especially to Deadeye. A lot of times, discussions on these boards turn to arguments where people just but heads without wanting to concede anything. I'm not the sort to think my opinion is the end-all, be-all. Far from it!

Here goes:

I don't know how I didn't notice this (since I've read the Night Lords Index Astartes before), but Deadeye was spot on when he was talking about Curze's methods being effective. The article itself makes specific mention to how effective he was in imposing order, and in seeing the improvement of productivity. So I'll take the hit on that. I don't think what the article describes necessarily reconciles with the actual human experience... but then again we don't have Primarchs in the real world.

_That having been said,_ the same article also makes it abundantly clear that what Curze did on Nostramo was NOT what he did during the Great Crusade. He didn't just terrorize people.

Once Curze took effective control, he ruled with "unheard of temperance and reason" and only became murderous again when he heard someone breaking the law. He did not, however, terrorize the whole population: he tracked down the specific transgressors. This was in keeping with the same code he had BEFORE he became the monarch, when he chased down only criminals and corrupt politicians. It's thus interesting that the people were terrified of him... unless rank-and-file criminals were such a big percentage of the general population.

By contrast, Curze takes on a completely different tack during the Great Crusade than he did while on Nostramo. At first, he uses "total and decisive force", utterly crushing his opposition to ensure they never stray from Imperial law. At one point, he virus-bombs an entire continent to destroy a single cult on a remote island (kind of like wiping out all life on Africa on account of problems on Madagascar). This is more or less described as the apogee of the Night Lords Legion. Their downfall occurs when more and more Nostramans - who have reverted to crime and corruption - are brought into the ranks of his Legion. Now what you start seeing is warrior cults, the culling of entire defenseless populations, etc.

So the Curze of Nostramo and the Curze of the Great Crusade fought using different means and methods. Curze on Nostramo made a calculated decision to take on the evil of society on himself by becoming a figure of terror - _but he only targeted known criminals._ Later, Curze begins unleashing wholesale punishment on entire planets. It's worth noting that while the Index Astartes article qualifies Nostramo's increased productivity, no such statement is made for any of the worlds Curze subsequently brought into compliance. I'd argue this was precisely because where the people of Nostramo KNEW that if you didn't commit a crime you'd be safe, the people the Night Lords conquered had no such guarantee. They were engaged wholesale. The same conditions that ensured the loyalty of the Nostramans did not apply to them.

Curze is a very troubling figure. He began his life as a force for justice. But we know (via "Soul Hunter", "Lord of the Night", and other sources) that he not only *knew* that his Legion's ranks were being swollen by merciless criminals... he *tolerated* it, and he even rewarded such individuals (see: Krieg Acerbus). He knew what they were doing during the Great Crusade. His contemporaries (see: Talos) witnessed him saying he HATED his Legion and what it had become. In short, I seriously doubt even Curze would compare what he had done on Nostramo to what he and his warriors were doing to the galaxy. And if Curze hated what he was doing and saw the hypocrisy of what his Legion was doing, I seriously doubt even HE would try to convince us of the efficacy of his methods post-Nostramo.

So, in short... I agree with much of what you said about *Nostramo*... and I humbly concede that point to you. On the other hand, I stand by my words in regards to how valid Curze's efforts were during the Crusade, and that his brothers were right to hold true to their own tactics, while also denouncing his.

Cheers,
P.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I'll respond to Phoebus directly and hopefully it will answer the others. Post-Nostramo I believe is when Curze for maybe the first time started seeing that his foreseen death was deserved. I believe it he had wanted it, he could have evaded and continued to terrorize the Imperium for thousands of years with none who could stop him.Instead his sense of justice prevailed and he submitted to Imperial justice. His tactics were effective before the heresy in what he was trying to do. Ater it, they were based on creating terror and they were effective in creating terror. He saw he had gone off the reservation and knew that according to the code he lived by, death was the only option.

As for his tactics in taking worlds compared to his brothers I'll elaborate. The worlds I'm referring to are the worlds that DID NOT want to be brought into the Imperium.Worlds that were thriving independent societies that enjoyed autonomy and had a rich culture and history. These worlds no matter how you swing it did not want to sacrifice their independence for "enlightenment." They had survived for centuries without the Imperium and would have liked to continue. This isn't Star Wars so forget that argument of love, this is Warhammer and it says in the beginning of each book notions like that are dead. Fear is easy to inspire? Only for the weak. You think it's easy to inspire fear in a being like Rogal Dorn or space marines? To bring fear to an entire planet or sector you have to become a universal concept of terror to be seen with dread.That's not an easy task. While I'll admit that not all worlds needed Night Lord treatment, the majority probably would at some point need to be reminded that loyalty wasn't a two way street. Worlds rebelling now are treated with harsh treatment.From Imperial assassins being dispatched to the hereticus to watch for rebels as well as other things it is brutal. 

Benevolence is a fantasy in 40k. Mercy from the Emperor usually occurs with a round to the head. Worlds burn when they can't be saved and if they are the population is either killed or steralized and enslaved for life to keep things quiet if exposed to Chaos.I don't see how the Haunter's tactics of brutality and ruthlessness are being questioned as this is how the Imperium runs now. You tell me one thing the Haunter did up to his destruction of his planet that the Imperium would not be willing to do or more today?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> I believe it he had wanted it, he could have evaded and continued to terrorize the Imperium for thousands of years with none who could stop him.


Yeah, I agree with that assessment in general. I think his conflict with the Lion showed how difficult it is to try to track even a Legion-size fleet through just a sector. Imagine how tough it would be if he wasn't limiting himself to a specific area!



> His tactics were effective before the heresy in what he was trying to do.


When it comes to flat out conquest, I agree wholeheartedly.



> As for his tactics in taking worlds compared to his brothers I'll elaborate. The worlds I'm referring to are the worlds that DID NOT want to be brought into the Imperium.


The thing is, the same Index Astartes we're both referring to makes it pretty clear that this what he did, period. It was either outright surrender right off the bat, or full on Night Lords Fun Time.



> Worlds that were thriving independent societies that enjoyed autonomy and had a rich culture and history. These worlds no matter how you swing it did not want to sacrifice their independence for "enlightenment." They had survived for centuries without the Imperium and would have liked to continue.


That's a fair description, but it's made abundantly clear that, nonetheless, the other Primarchs (well, those who weren't bat-shit crazy, Angron-style) were able to bring said worlds to Compliance and turned them into loyal, productive worlds of the Imperium. And let's be real here: the record we have of the Imperium's conquests does not indicate that they had to deal with even a mentionable number of post-Compliance rebellions.



> Benevolence is a fantasy in 40k.


Absolutely! Well, in broad, general terms. And in the majority of the time. People can be nice to each other, but like the novel always starts... it's the bloodiest, most oppressive regime imaginable.

And the same holds true during the Great Crusade. The golden, idealistic Imperium is a propaganda product. Even Guilliman's "utopias" are, like I said, probably something along the lines of a high-tech Sparta/North Korea with super-nice monuments and palaces and the propaganda machine turned to "10".



> I don't see how the Haunter's tactics of brutality and ruthlessness are being questioned as this is how the Imperium runs now. You tell me one thing the Haunter did up to his destruction of his planet that the Imperium would not be willing to do or more today?


I would argue that what the Haunter did (especially in the latter period of the Crusade) was basically his baseline. Where the Imperium is concerned, though, those would be considered emergency measures (virus bombing, culling entire populations, etc.).


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Well we can just bundle all that up into the "exterminatus" category. Take this into account. At that point to destroy an entire planet, only a primarch had ever done so (Curze) and they were second only to the Emperor. Currently? You can be an inquisitor,not even a lord inquisitor, and destroy a planet. Also a space marine with the right munitions or a high ranking guard commander can do it.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Yes, but for the Imperium Exterminatus is an *extreme*. Curze was culling entire populations for the transgressions of a few as a matter of course. Also, we aren't shown other Primarchs destroying planets, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. When the events of Isstvan III were revealed, people were horrified but no one called it an unprecedented event.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> Fear is easy to inspire?


Easier than love. It is possible, given the right tools and mindset, to make anyone fear you. It is not always possible to make them love or respect you. 



> While I'll admit that not all worlds needed Night Lord treatment, the majority probably would at some point need to be reminded that loyalty wasn't a two way street.


Loyalty is a two-way street, obedience is not. Night Haunter chose obedience over loyalty for exactly this reason. 

Worlds conquered by other Legions, and turned into loyal citizens of the Imperium would likely not need to be shown the brutality of the Night Lords. Indeed, we have been given very few examples of worlds that have rebelled after being conquered.



Deadeye776 said:


> At that point to destroy an entire planet, only a primarch had ever done so (Curze) and they were second only to the Emperor. Currently? You can be an inquisitor,not even a lord inquisitor, and destroy a planet. Also a space marine with the right munitions or a high ranking guard commander can do it.


As Pheobus said, we don't actually know who may have order Exterminatus-type effects at that point. Given that the weapons used to do so are fairly readily available and raise no suspicions would suggest that they were used with at least some regularity. 

In addition, the goals of these two time periods are different. During the Great Crusade the Legions were tasked with conquering the galaxy and uniting humanity. It is exceedingly difficult to claim to be working to unite humanity when you end up obliterating every third human world, so the Legions likely took greater risks in bringing these worlds to compliance. In the modern Imperium however the goal is simply to hold on at all costs, sacrificing one world to hold two more is deemed a worthy cause. Exterminatus is employed as a last result, when a world is already lost and only by burning it can they ensure the tait/threat does not spread. Burning a world already lost is a far different act to burning one you intend to take and the policies regarding these actions reflect that.


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