# SM. Making the most out of troop choices?



## Eric.West (Sep 16, 2008)

So due to the fact only troop choices can hold objectives, I'm finding my self forced to field extra troop choices for nothing but that reason. If Annihilation is rolled I could of easily had a MUCH more powerful army by ditching them.

So I'm trying to figure out how to make the most of them. In my opinion any INFANTRY should be able to hold objectives; e.g assault marines, or vanguard/sternguard ect. But unfortunately that's not debatable, moving onwards. 

I always field one unit of scouts to take advantage of the heavy bolter with hellfire rounds, + telion. I think Telion is invaluable, not once have I played a game and he hasn't sniped out SOMEONE important. Even if its just a nob ork boy or nob with powerclaw. or And exarch or even a daemon with icon.

But then I find myself just beating around the bush for the rest. 10 marines is 170 points(no extras), almost anywhere OTHER then on tac marines if I were to use those 170, I'd get more bang for my buck. e.g Vanguard. If you were to add a lascannon and melta bombs to the tac group, for those points I could take 5 assault termies!

I find it hard to be effective with tac marines, their 1 shot bolters are hardly an excuse for firepower, and if you move within rapid fire range (12") then next turn your also in assault range for your enemy, (move 6" assault 6")
So you pretty much blow off your shots, and then cringe for impact.

Only thing I can think of to prevent that is to move, rapid fire, then have assault marines or fast moving things to charge in that turn to follow up the shots, not leaving your unit vulnerable to be assaulted next turn.

I tried making them somewhat assault oriented with flamers, sergeant with ch ainsword, ect but after that 1st round of combat, their done for. 1 Attack ain't cutting it. Plus..charging them and dieing kind of defeats the purpose of taking them to hold objectives! 

But yet, holding them back, leaves you with single shot bolter! Not fun.

As for more scouts...any armed with snipers is a no. Because advancing to an objective with snipers = no shots. And giving them combat blades...well....lets just say you may as well field an assault squad!

Sigh this is why I hate GW for surrounding 2/3 scenarios around troop choices! Yes I understand its a different aspect of the game, but unlike Orks, Eldar, Guard...ect Marines don't really have good troop pics IMO.

Its easy for an Ork player to toss in 100 boyz, likewise with guard or eldar(guardians, dark avengers ect) 

These 3 armies can field troops at 6-8 points a pop! Marines are paying 16. 

Anyways if I could get some suggestions on making my troops more effective let me know!


----------



## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

170 points for a tac squad comes with extras. Flamer and a Missile launcher. Not to mention that you can combat squad them so you are actually paying 85 points for a scoring unit. Not too bad.


----------



## Lash Machine (Nov 28, 2008)

I would give the sergants combi weapons to match the special weapon carried in the squad as well as either a power weapon or fist. The List I am working on comprises two tactical sqauds with a Rhino and a razor back used as three units of ten, five and five.

The plan is to use the embarked 15 tactical marines to surge forward with a supporting assault unit with the rest of the army as fire support. It's similar to how I use my Chaos army and I am confident it would work with Marines. As long as you engage the enemy on your own terms the basic tactical marine is still pretty sturdy.

I my opinion, generally you only need three troop choices in a 1500point army of most races. One to sit and hold a base objective with the rest to go and grab supported with a lot of funky stuff.


----------



## Jackinator (Nov 18, 2008)

Yeah Tactical Marines are pretty crap, but they're not there to win the battle, in the fluff it's always been the veterans taking the objectives and then the troops digging in around them, they even redesigned the objectives rules with this in mind and seeing as how space marines get things like Vanguard and Assault Terminators taking objectives isn't really that much of a problem now is it.:good:


----------



## NecronCowboy (Jan 8, 2009)

If you are playing for objectives, then split into combat squads, end of discussion.....


----------



## sooch (Nov 25, 2008)

Cloaked sniper scouts with a ML and telion are pretty invaluable. 2+ GtG cover with the ability to hit on 2+ with a reroll with a missile launcher or snipe special weapons is pretty damn good. A small sniper scout squad, plus 2 tactical squads is pretty much all the troops you need for 1500 and the rest should go into killing things. Don't neglect picking up transports (rhinos, razors) for your tac squads either. Those are important. They give you a rapid fire range of over 24" due to the tank movement as well as survivability. Missile/flamer, the free heavy/special, also are already great so no need to spend more points there. If you need more antitank though, a meltagun is only 5 points and is totally worth it. Tactical squads are bad, but that's how you make the most of them.


----------



## godzy (Jun 5, 2008)

the whole min/max going on in 4th edition codex was just that-making the best of troop choices. getting a ride is prety good. either get a rhino, move, unload and then block LOS, or spend five more points for a TL HB.


----------



## Eric.West (Sep 16, 2008)

yeah, I always feild that unit of scouts like I mentioned in the original post, thats for the suggestions on the tac marines, quick responses.


----------



## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

Move 12, _Disembark_, Lay waste.

It does a lot of damage. Especially if you took a combi-weapon on the Sargent.


----------



## banik (Jan 21, 2009)

Eric.West said:


> Sigh this is why I hate GW for surrounding 2/3 scenarios around troop choices! Yes I understand its a different aspect of the game, but unlike Orks, Eldar, Guard...ect Marines don't really have good troop pics IMO.
> 
> Its easy for an Ork player to toss in 100 boyz, likewise with guard or eldar(guardians, dark avengers ect)
> 
> These 3 armies can field troops at 6-8 points a pop! Marines are paying 16.


Ok. You're complaining that Eldar have better troops than Marines? Are You Serious, or are you just trolling? This is so outside the realm of reality that I find myself waiting for cats to lay with dogs, rain to fall upwards, and GW to lower their prices across the board.

Marines are so much better than any troop choice the Eldar have at holding objectives that it's just not funny. Why do you think GW made troops so important in 5th? It directly panders to SM players, it's rediculous.

/sigh.


----------



## Eric.West (Sep 16, 2008)

Although I hate mathhammer...lets do some.

Guardian 8pts
Marine 16pts

5 Marines = 90pts (you pay more for the sarge) 

Now lets take equivalent pts of guardians. 

11 Guardians

Lets give the SM player the benifit of the doubt and say his 24" bolters fire before the 18" shuirken cannons. 

4 shots...the sarge is out of range. 3+ to hit, half hit, 2 hits, 3+ to wound, 1 wound. 1 Dead guardian.

Next turn. Guardians have the nice ability to be able to MOVE and still shoot 18", unlike marines pathetic 12" if they move. Guardians move within range and....

10 Guardians, 2 shots each, 20 shots....lets not be generous here, and say 10 hit, 5 wound. Generally out of 5 wounds, 2 marines will kick the bucket.

Thats a panic check for the marines, they'll likely stay to fight, but next turn they have almost half the firepower. Even if they move in for rapid fire its not going to cut it.

If I were to try this out with Dire Avengers and an exarch using the 3 shot assault.....it would be even worse turn out for the marines.

Not to mention in close combat, the guardians will have twice the amount of attacks( because their unit is 10 strong oppose to the 5 strong marines). Yes I know their 1 less WS and 1 less S/T, but...double the dice should make up for it.


----------



## sooch (Nov 25, 2008)

Also pathfinders > sniper scouts.


----------



## MasterKnives (Jan 21, 2009)

Eric.West, as much as you hate math-hammer, it is useful on occasion. 

Re-examining your calculations we see the following. 

Starting range (24")

Marines, 4 shots, 2.64 hits, 1.75 dead guardians. (call it two, ill return the favor for them later)

9 guardians, 18 shots, 11.88 hit, 5 wound, 1.6 dead marines (call it two as we are rounding up)

The guardians are currently at 18"

3 Marines move up 6, and shoot, now at 12"

5 shots, 3.3 hits, 2.178 wounds (two dead guardians)

Guardians move up and shoot (they want to assault) now at 6"

7 guardians, shoot 14 times, 9.24 hits, 4.62 wounds, 1.4 marines (one, I don't round up below 50%)

Eldar Charge, 7v3

14 attacks, 7 hits, 2.24 wounds, .7 dead marines... so 1 dies

Return attacks, 2 marines (one serg) 4 attacks, 2.64 hits, 1.74 wounds, even after saves 2 guardians die, marines win by one.

If eldar dont break (sure they wont... the marines didn't break in shooting).

5v2, 5 attacks, 2.5 hits, .8 wound.... no marines die. (.24 marines died)

4 attacks, 2.64 hits, 1.74 wounds.... two more guardians.... IF they don't break

3v2, 3 attacks, 1.5 hit .48 wounds... we still haven't killed a marine... bad luck could get in the way... but alas. (.15 died...)

repeat from above... marines kill two more, GO MARINES!

The guardians just will not win this close combat in terms of averages and math-hammer.


The reality is though, that at this level it is really more of a tossup, individual combats can have flubbed rolls etc... so while marines aren't way better, they clearly should beat equal points worth of guardians almost every single time.


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll (Jun 9, 2008)

Your both forgetting the fact that a Guardian squad MUST take a weapon platform. Eldar also have Dire Avengers and Pathfinders to boot. Now if you consider multiple units, one eldar unit suddenly has a 4+ cover save. And don't even bother trying to compare transports


----------



## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

This is a good thread, but sliding a little. Comparing eldar and SM troops choices is not the same thing as working out good tactics for marines. 

For what it's worth though, and since it's a fun discussion, eldar have far better troops. Their guys are much more mobile, much better at killing things, much better at staying out of trouble. Dire avengers in a wave serpent are a unit that functions in combat on its own merits and which you could take even if it wasn't scoring. Tactical squads do not compare at all with that. Scouts have their uses, but you can't make an army with them at its core.

The fundamental problem is the standard bolter marine. The bolter is one of the worst guns carried by any common troop figure in 40k. Compare it with a shoota, pulse rifle, kroot rifle, shuriken catapult or gauss blaster. It beats a lasgun, but that is supposed to be a joke anyway and even still, point for point IG lasgun fire is comparable with marine bolter fire against most targets.

Then of course you have power armour. So what? Cover saves are so common in 5th edition that the chances are you have your t4 3+ save guy trading shots with a t4 4+ save guy - who costs 1/3 what your guy does. Marines are losing shoot out with orks, then scratching their heads and wondering what happened. Well, orks land as many hits each at 18" range as marines do, but can do it while moving.

You want to go up to the enemy and flame them? In a rhino? Thanks for the kill point. Why are you not a dire avenger firing 3 times from too far away to charge, or a sister of battle with a rending bolter (and friend with heavy flamer)? Why do you only have one special weapon in the unit and a heavy weapon that totally fails for this tactic?

My opinion is that a marine player has to play with a small amount of troops. Scouts in a storm are good. A tactical squad isn't a complete embarassment to stay back and hole an objective. You have to go for a strategy based around killing the other guy's toy soldiers, and contesting objectives a lot. It's kind of a big ask. Take stuff that is good, not the below-par troops, and the job gets a little easier.


----------



## MasterKnives (Jan 21, 2009)

I will agree that marines got hurt by the new cover rules, largely because they do not need it in most situations, and it allows opponents who previously had no save against them to survive and keep shooting. Compare this to a gun that is best described as "mediocre" you have problems.


I prefer ultimately to run my troops as combat squads, half in a razorback with a flamer and the sergeant with combi-flamer, the other half standing back with a missile launcher or something similar. It allows you to have some degree of overall "killy-ness" with them. The scouts in a landspeeder also work wonders. 

Gone are the days of my preferred rhino-rush with plasma guns, but you can still kill something with tac marines, and they do entrench against fire better than almost any other troop choice. 

Of course, running as salamanders with Vulkan He'stan on the table the flamer strategy becomes even more effective. With the advent of cover it seems to be an effective solution. Jumping out of a razorback, and using two "twin-linked" flamers can put the hurt on.


----------



## LegendX (Jun 16, 2008)

Basically you have to be ready to play any situation.

If you roll an objectives game, combat squads are your friend. Turns 2 squads into 4 right there. And just keep in mind that their priority is the objectives and that will be a tactical weakness for you if the enemy sees it.

Use it to your advantage by countering his attempts to kill off your troops, while taking out whatever else you can with the elite units that you spend all your other points on.

You just have to be ready for anything, really.

LX


----------



## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

If you hate tac squads so much, just put your captain on a Bike, and have a biker army. Problem solved.


I also think a lot of people underestimate the power of combat tactics and ATSKNF. Together these rules are really good. The basic marine squad also has a weak version of hit and run.

With the guardian example, you don't need to kill every one of those 9 guardians. Only 5, and the last 4 will run. This is a fact that is overlooked every time I see people talking about how bad space marines are.


----------



## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Those are good points Pauly. Marines do have a good selection of special rules that work well. Their good morale, and control over the morale situation, help a lot. However, that isn't a virtue that tactical marines have over other units in the marine army. It isn't a reason to take a tac squad instead of terminators, or whatever. It's army-wide. 

I come back to one thing, which is that I buy units to perform tasks that are part of a strategy. I want to have guys who are good at whatever task they are supposed to be doing. Some troops choices have very clear jobs, like khorne berzerkers for example, and they are able to justify their place in the army on those terms. A scout squad in a land speeder storm is one such unit, but you probably only want one of them really. 

I don't personally find it easy to use a unit like a tactical squad that has no specific role in which it excells, but is theoretically able to get by ok all the time. It doesn't help that they do just fail against other people's troops, so a tactical squad against a shoota boyz mob has no real chance either in shooting or assault, but that's not the whole problem. I almost object to it on principle as it seems like I'm hardly involved. They can shoot badly, assault badly, and are not all that tough. It hardly matters what I ask of them as a player or what decisions I take, I can count on these guys do be sort of ok at it, but not great. 

I would prefer to have a unit that was great at something and bad at other things so that it's my choices and mistakes that get it into position to do its thing, or fail to. There's nothing worse than seeing a tide of orks wash over a marine line, or to get picked off by JSJ crisis suits, and to know that there was really nothing you could have done differently to change the outcome. It isn't a lot better on those occasions where you line up your guys and shoot the enemy down. Either way, it wasn't really you who made the difference.


----------



## MasterKnives (Jan 21, 2009)

Indeed, however tactical marines being "jacks of all trades" helps new players. They are a very forgiving troop by nature, they lack the inherent drawbacks of other troop choices, and while they too lack any competitive advantage, this is not needed by most new players, as such tactical marines will be helpful to those starting the game. 

To the experienced player who wants all of their units on the table to accomplish a specific task it does seem tactical marines lack a niche. However, I would argue that in the right combination with the right upgrades and combat squads you can create very powerful all purpose units to support every other unit on the table, thus making tactical marines a "backbone" of the army.


----------



## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

To the OP, I point you here

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26523

good debate going on about minimizing troop choices and winning by being straight killy. If they have no troop choices left, they can't win either. All you need to do is make sure you hold one and contest the rest.


----------



## Dafistofmork (Jan 9, 2009)

I think a lot of people are missing the point. tac marines are not there to wipe out the enemy. that job is allocated to what ever else you took. example:
multi-tasking devastators-use them in 2 role specific combat squads, one removes tanks, the other infantry.
any elites choice-the seldge hammer of the marines, used to crack open a nut (typicaly other elites, MC and tanks).
fast stuff-pins the enemy down, prevents them taking objectives. useful against deverstator equvilents.
Tac marines- sit on an objective. if another unit comes looking and can not be countered by one of the above, then the marines have a high chance of fighting it off. if not, your army selction is flawed. next time get somthing that can counter that threat.

sorry for any poor spelling, but i was attacked by the grammer samuri's when i wrote this.


----------



## Godstud (Jan 22, 2009)

Tactical are a great choice and don't forget they get a cheap transport with them.

A tactical squad with a Razorback with a HB is pretty good.

You split the squad into 2 combat squads with the hvy wpn in the squad you plan to put in a defense position. The spec wpn, sgt and pals get in the razorback and head for objectives. Flamers are a really good in these squads or a MG. Plasma guns lack the punch of a melta and can backfire on you and the melta is cheaper/anti-tank too.

I've used this tactic with plain old barebones sgts and a captain. Add in a scout squad and every unit you have is a scoring unit and capable of harrying or even knocking out enemies. You won't survive a 20 ork rush but you'll have plenty of heavy weapon support almost anywhere on your lines if you spread out. Dafistofmork is right when he says they aren't there to wipe out formations. Then again you can sure make them spend a lot of time trying to destroy your formations if you put them in good cover/positions.

I did a 1000 pt little fight last night with 3 Tact squads with razorbacks, a Capt and a scout squad. 7 separate units. I won 3 to 1 for objectives since I could cap them ALL. My 3 combat squads with heavy weapons also managed to do quite a bit of damage since I had them in positions where they could support my razorbacks and concentrate fire if necessary. It was a 4x8 table and we battled lengthwise and the Dark Angels I fought had huge mobilityyet still failed to flank me. :so_happy:

Tactical troops are the backbone of your SM army! Never forget it! Scouts can cap objectives pretty fast too and pin down troops trying to move towards objectives.


----------

