# Wher the fluff came from...



## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Has anyone ever stepped back after reading the fluff and wondered where the writers ever conceived this insanely broken story i say broken cause well lets face it its more a mythology than a story.

Now i said this in another thread but the whole emperor story has to at least have some take from the book of revalations in my opinion. 
think about it 

You have the Anti-Christ (Tzeench) he comes then war follows (Khorne) then along comes famine and desiese(Nurgle) Now Slaanesh still tring to work this one out but the whole fall of the Eldar story well we see this in ancient Rome. We all know that Rome eventually falls due to there excess, lustful, and greedy ways. 
Oh yeah before i forget the Emperor who is pretty much christ in his 2nd coming because well you know he shows completely stomps chaos in the ground and unites all of humanity which can either be taken as Sort of the new world order.

Since we are speakong of the Emperor lets mention His former right hand man Horus. Now this here is definately taken out of the bible. We all know the fall of Lucifer and how he rebeled aginst God and was defeated and sent to Hell for all eternity. Well lets see Horus wants to be emperor and attempts take over and then is killed and his remaining forces go to the eye of terror.

Moving on The Inquisition well lets look at history at the real Inquisition.
only diffrence here is that in 40k they are actually killing real heretics and witches unlike back in the day when if someone wanted your property they would brand you witch and bam your human BBQ. 

The names of the gods in 40k come from many diffrent sources such as Nurgle which comes from a Babalonian god of the same name and just spelled Nergal and also meets the same criteria and more.
Most names in the fluff come from the Latin Language like Carnifex actually means Executioner or the name Tyranids itself originates from its root word TYRANT which define this word means "a cruel and oppresive dictator" Tyranids devour a planet of all life and leave like a plague of locusts in other words they overtake the origianal owners of the planet much like a tyrant inade a neighboring country.Also note Plague of Locusts again this can also symbolise from the bible.

I shall stop here if any of you disagree feel free to say so or if you find other info that shows where this mythology origantes tell me.


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## Helvron (Jan 4, 2010)

TheSpore said:


> Moving on The Inquisition well lets look at history at the real Inquisition.
> only diffrence here is that in 40k they are actually killing real heretics and witches unlike back in the day when if someone wanted your property they would brand you witch and bam your human BBQ.


Ok for christ sake... the first Inquistion, the Catholic one. most of the supposed heretics were not killed the few that were killed were really dangerious heretics trying to destroy the church... most people simply repented and were let go, even if they were innocent to begin with(better then being beheaded... generally only the spanish BBQed people. the spanish Inquestion were not stopping heresy, they were killing people for land and money not for god or his church... please stop blaming the catholic church for those deaths, it was not their fault... please specify which Inq you are talking about.

And yes i really see what your saying i too have had this connection before. total rip of Relilation but so much cooler.


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## K3k3000 (Dec 28, 2009)

> You have the Anti-Christ (Tzeench) he comes then war follows (Khorne) then along comes famine and desiese(Nurgle)


Big T is a charismatic monster who unites humanity with a false peace? No, he's a mad god swelling so full of information, secrets, and knowledge that he can't act on any of it before whimsy compels him elsewhere. Besides, Khorne and Nurgle certainly don't "follow" Big T; they've been around at least as long as he has and play just as big of a role in galactic affairs as he does. What's more, while Nurgle and Khorne can indeed be equated to Pestilence and War, that still leaves out Death and Famine/Conquest, which none of the chaos gods really represent. If the chaos gods are a metaphor for the rapture, it's horribly incomplete one.



> Now Slaanesh still tring to work this one out but the whole fall of the Eldar story well we see this in ancient Rome. We all know that Rome eventually falls due to there excess, lustful, and greedy ways.


That's a gross oversimplification of the fall of Rome. Decadence played a big role, sure, but Rome was such a massive, powerful entity at that point that it could have weathered it. The spread of Christian doctrine weakened Rome's militant gumption, soil erosion destroyed crops, the role of "emperor" was commonly filled with people who simply didn't want to rule and didn't survive long when they did, economic turmoil was prevelant, the empire had expanded well past its means of coping, and the first strains of what would likely become the Bubonic Plague began to surface. Rome fell because the storm was just too damn perfect for it not to.



> Oh yeah before i forget the Emperor who is pretty much christ in his 2nd
> coming because well you know he shows completely stomps chaos in the ground and unites all of humanity which can either be taken as Sort of the new world order.


Christ preached peace, the personal worship of God, and how it would be really nice if everyone could just get along with one another. The Emperor was a militant atheist who personally saw to the destruction of all churches and religions. There aren't any real similarities to speak of.



> Since we are speakong of the Emperor lets mention His former right hand man Horus. Now this here is definately taken out of the bible. We all know the fall of Lucifer and how he rebeled aginst God and was defeated and sent to Hell for all eternity. Well lets see Horus wants to be emperor and attempts take over and then is killed and his remaining forces go to the eye of terror.


This is a little more viable, though a young upstart trying to usurp the throne is a pretty common trope.



> Moving on The Inquisition well lets look at history at the real Inquisition.
> only diffrence here is that in 40k they are actually killing real heretics and witches unlike back in the day when if someone wanted your property they would brand you witch and bam your human BBQ.


I think it sort of goes without saying that an organization named The Inquisition will probably be at least partially based on the real-world inquisition. It's not like 40k is trying to be subtle, here.



> The names of the gods in 40k come from many diffrent sources such as Nurgle which comes from a Babalonian god of the same name and just spelled Nergal and also meets the same criteria and more.


This is interesting. I'll have to look into this.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Yeah WH40K without a doubt borrowed a lot from christanity and european history.


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## Partof1 (Mar 2, 2010)

I think there _are_ several parallels to the bible and mythology, though some are less direct than others. 

Much literature draws from Biblical texts, and I think the Warhammer Universe has an interesting take on the premise.


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## Jeanms_247 (Mar 3, 2010)

The simpson's did it first ...
Just joking, but of course there are going to be things that seem familiar, isn't there in any science fiction universe? It's the fact they were able to bring it together so well that should be admired


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

yep most ideas are just copy pastes from other sources, with a few small name changes and location changes to fit the universe, pretty much none of it is an original idea chucked into a pot and stirred till becoming a messy ever changing always contradicting sludgy pile of poo.


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## World Eater XII (Dec 12, 2008)

this is without a doubt the most bizaare thread ive read


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## Zenith_of_Mind (Mar 12, 2010)

I find the Warhammer fluff to be one of the best fluffs there are. It's so complex, and obviously it draws many aspects from real life people, organizations etc. 

First, it draws inspiration from Tolkienesque fantasy(which is in turn mostly Gaelic and Viking mythology)- Eldar, Orks etc. Imperium is based on medieval Europe, mostly Holy Roman Empire. We have the Holy Emperor, Imperial Cult which is based on Christianity, Inquisition etc. The Tau Empire is based on Far Eastern countries like Japan or China with the concept of the Greater Good (Tau=Tao). Chaos represents heathens who refuse to accept religion, and Chaos gods are partially based on the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Chaos also represents...well...chaos i.e. primal "destructive" force (entropy). It is also linked to mysterious sorcery powers from the old myths.

These are just the basics, I'm always surprised at countless tributes inside the fluff. For example Sly Marbo, the feral world Kimmeria, Lion El'Johnson and so on.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Jeanms_247 said:


> The simpson's did it first ...
> Just joking, but of course there are going to be things that seem familiar, isn't there in any science fiction universe? It's the fact they were able to bring it together so well that should be admired


South Park did it too...:laugh:

If you have an apt understanding and a greater awareness of other well-known Sci-Fi`s and to a lesser extent Fantasies, spanning the latter half of the twentieth century - which I most certainly do not - then you will easily recognise many aspects of 40k, some subtely borrowed and then twisted and remade into more complex and fleshed out versions, others blatantly stolen and hardly built upon.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Well...... as far as names and biblical references Abaddon would fit the bill perfectly. "And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon." Revelations 9:11


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

well im glad many of you have seen my point im not saying 40k is a rip off by any means i feel that is one of the best works of fiction ive read i just started to make connections between diffrent other sources.

to the guy who said i blamed alot of killing on the catholic i wasnt blaming anything i respect all forms of religion for im pretty my damn near catholic im lutheran which isnt very far from it. anyway 
i did do a lil research in the name TAU
TAU is the letter T in the greek alphabet
an also read something called the tau theory
The general tau theory is a theory of perceptuomotor control based on the ecological invariant
Im honestly not sure if there is any connection to this but i whould agree with the affiliation to asian culture

heres another link 
Ahriman in Zoroastrianism
In ancient Persian religion (Zoroastrianism), Ahriman (aka Arimanius or Angra Mainya) stood high in the ranks of the enemies who opposed Ahura Mazda (aka Ohrmazd or Oromasdes). Ahriman is thought to be the first personification of "the Devil" because Zoroastrians believed in a completely dualistic form of religion. 

also im sure you all have noticed the link to egyptian mythology with the thousand sons .

also Nurgle can also represent Famine and Death he has been refered to chaos god of death, desiese, pestilance, and famine 

if we wanna get really weird about things this char death could also be represented by the nught bringer


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Azrael the Dark Angels Grand Master is also the name of the Angel of Death, which is another name for the Space Marines.


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## Zenith_of_Mind (Mar 12, 2010)

TheSpore said:


> also im sure you all have noticed the link to egyptian mythology with the thousand sons .


Of course, Thousand Sons are based on the ancient Egyptians.
Just like Horus is named after the Egyptian god Horus who was the god of war and mightiest of all other gods (primarchs). Also there is the eye of Horus from the mythology which is Eye of Terra in Luna Wolves emblems, and also symbol of the Eldar.

As for the Chaos gods - they represent the four extreme aspects of personality. There is a name for this both in ancient Buddhist texts but I forgot what it is...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Zenith_of_Mind said:


> Of course, Thousand Sons are based on the ancient Egyptians.


There is also Aztec similarities though


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## Zenith_of_Mind (Mar 12, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> There is also Aztec similarities though


Really? Didn't notice them, to be honest.
The similarities with the Egyptians are obvious - from the pyramids of Prospero, the scarabs on their pre-heresy armor and that cool looking helms that Pharaohs wore(don't know the name), their names etc.


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## Helvron (Jan 4, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> There is also Aztec similarities though


I am sorry but i don't see that.... could you please show some similarities?
i can see the Eygptians, but the Aztec's... nope i can't see that.


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## ajchafe (Aug 13, 2009)

There are a lot of academic theories and critical philosophy's regarding literature, folk lore, mythology and story telling that say nothing is really original (or at least nothing is original any more), and that everything produced by people today is just a copy of a copy or based on any number of archetypal stories and characters. This is particularly easy to see in a lot of Science Fiction, Fantasy, or pulp literature. 40K is no different, it takes its inspiration from a huge variety of sources, some from literature, some from history, some from myth and legend. I'm sure there is some source for just about everything mentioned in the fluff if you looked hard enough.

Not saying this is a bad thing either, I think some of the best forms of literature are heavily inspired by or examine these archetypal stories and characters (particularly sci-fi and fantasy).


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## Twisted (Mar 11, 2010)

There are tones of religious and mythological references in Warhammer 40k.

A lot of the best fictional worlds are created around something that already exists, it's easier to associate with something that seems familiar.

Although it's not just about familiarity. Starting something from scratch can sometimes have an unintuitive progression as it doesn't evolve naturally.

And to add to the list of borrowed names how about Baal. Or Horus the falcon headed Egyptian sky god. Funnily enough Horus battled Set in Egyptian mythology, and it is Set that could be considered a god of chaos.


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## nivik (Mar 16, 2010)

Sm are deffinitly a idea of Christianity, i think what the designers where going for was a few on Christianity where god is int pure, where theres hate and greed and pain, kinda like a opposite of modern Christianity


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## ajchafe (Aug 13, 2009)

Twisted said:


> Or Horus the falcon headed Egyptian sky god. Funnily enough Horus battled Set in Egyptian mythology, and it is Set that could be considered a god of chaos.


And interestingly enough, Horus the god is partly a savior good, even benevolent towards human kind.


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## Tel Asra Nejoar (Mar 16, 2010)

how about lovecraft? i think the necrons fluff is dripping in it. lots of historical ones too, such as ultramarines representing greece in ancient times, inquisition being kinda renaissance in look and feel, parallels in guard and various war settings in our history etc. i do think that other authors have influenced heavily though, like the afore mentioned H.P. Lovecraft, and other classic sci-fi. Chaos to me seem to embody the pagan form of worship known as Chaos, though they dont sacrifice people/critters and all that depraved stuff, they follow a loose form of worship covering a multitude of gods, and the eight pointed star had to come from somewhere! the heresy kind of plays out like the Fall of lucifer and the hosts, as do the wars in Hevan(the eldar/necron/oldones stuff). we could go at this forever though, as loads more come to mind!


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

*stuff*



Tel Asra Nejoar said:


> how about lovecraft? i think the necrons fluff is dripping in it. lots of historical ones too, such as ultramarines representing greece in ancient times, inquisition being kinda renaissance in look and feel, parallels in guard and various war settings in our history etc. i do think that other authors have influenced heavily though, like the afore mentioned H.P. Lovecraft, and other classic sci-fi. Chaos to me seem to embody the pagan form of worship known as Chaos, though they dont sacrifice people/critters and all that depraved stuff, they follow a loose form of worship covering a multitude of gods, and the eight pointed star had to come from somewhere! the heresy kind of plays out like the Fall of lucifer and the hosts, as do the wars in Hevan(the eldar/necron/oldones stuff). we could go at this forever though, as loads more come to mind!


I think you are on the right track my friend and i would agree. I have read somewhere that some of the fluff was inspired by michal morcock(prolly mispelled that) as the necrons go i honestly this it too has aspects of egyptian in it.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

*stuff*



Tel Asra Nejoar said:


> how about lovecraft? i think the necrons fluff is dripping in it. lots of historical ones too, such as ultramarines representing greece in ancient times, inquisition being kinda renaissance in look and feel, parallels in guard and various war settings in our history etc. i do think that other authors have influenced heavily though, like the afore mentioned H.P. Lovecraft, and other classic sci-fi. Chaos to me seem to embody the pagan form of worship known as Chaos, though they dont sacrifice people/critters and all that depraved stuff, they follow a loose form of worship covering a multitude of gods, and the eight pointed star had to come from somewhere! the heresy kind of plays out like the Fall of lucifer and the hosts, as do the wars in Hevan(the eldar/necron/oldones stuff). we could go at this forever though, as loads more come to mind!


I think you are on the right track my friend and i would agree. I have read somewhere that some of the fluff was inspired by michal morcock(prolly mispelled that) as the necrons go i honestly this it too has aspects of egyptian in it. also not the 8 pointed star i bielve is just a general sign for chaos which by the way chaos is also the name of the king titans in greek mythology


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Don't forget the planet Birmingham. Its in the current rulebook i think. The thing we have to remember is that much of the original framework was put together by a small bunch of guys when rogue trader was around. They diddn't have crowds of dedicated fluff writers and had to put it together as they went. Despite the beginings we have some of the richest fluff of any game setting available. Despite what the detractors say would the game be as good without the backstory to support it?


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## Twisted (Mar 11, 2010)

TheSpore said:


> ...also not the 8 pointed star i bielve is just a general sign for chaos which by the way chaos is also the name of the king titans in greek mythology


I actually read that the Chaos symbol came from Moorcocks books. But it's easy to see why it's used as a symbol of chaos, as it has no defined single direction.

As for chaos in Greek mytholgoy, I think it was a primordial concept before the birth of the gods. Don't quote me on that though.

Actually just looked at the etymology of chaos, apparently it means gaping hole or some sort, which is interesting considering that Norse mythology also has a similar concept at the start of its cosmos.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

shaantitus said:


> Don't forget the planet Birmingham


ahh yes, planet birmingham, the one thing allot of american players think is extremely wrong and racist to include in a book....until you remind them that GW is a british company.


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

In the fantasy lines the High elves were supposedly copies of Micheal Moorcocks non-human rulers the Melniboneans (aka Dragon Princes)

Many of the same concepts behind the Melniboneans can be seen in the Eldar. Both used a network of extra dimentional paths to rule vast areas in the universe. Both fell thanks to decadent lifestyles. Both races were masters of "magic" (psy in the 40k sense) They were far more advanced than any of the nations around them in both magic and technology.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

i had read allot of the fluff was inspired by michal moorcock i just have never read any of his work before.

really every SM legion is taken form diffrent cultures in history. The primarch name actually give this away to some extent. 
Like Vulcan


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## zeroblackstar (Feb 16, 2010)

about 99% of GW fluff is ripped straight from other sources and shoe horned into the 40k universe as they see fit.

The Imperium seems to be based on the Holy Roman Empire (Imperium Romanum Sacrum in latin) and even the imperial aquila bares a striking resemblance to the banner. Check it out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire

You could find similar sources for every bit of GW fluff I can think of tbh 

Theyve done a hell of a job of melding all of it together into a genuinly absorbing and fascinating universe though, so my hats off to them


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## Mud213 (Nov 20, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> yep most ideas are just copy pastes from other sources, with a few small name changes and location changes to fit the universe, pretty much none of it is an original idea chucked into a pot and stirred till becoming a messy ever changing always contradicting sludgy pile of poo.


Part of the contradictions can be covered by saying that the knowledge of the Imperium is incomplete, inaccurate or just plain lies. Also, most of the backgrounds of the races that aren't human are from the perspective of humans so their understanding could be wrong or have changed since their first encounter.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Mud213 said:


> Part of the contradictions can be covered by saying that the knowledge of the Imperium is incomplete, inaccurate or just plain lies. Also, most of the backgrounds of the races that aren't human are from the perspective of humans so their understanding could be wrong or have changed since their first encounter.


Very true. People criticize the names of some of the tyranid creatures, which would have been named by the imperium so they have some point of referance. Pyrovore, looks like a biovore-spits fire, hence pyrovore.

Its like soviet fighter aircraft, no-one would name one of their own aircraft Fishbed would they?


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

You have the bible (and of a more immediate source, Paradise Lost by Milton).
Detailing the fall of the favoured son and the dangers of hubris.

The Primarchs are from a variety of sources - some mythological, some ethno-cultural.
Some of the names come from Shakespeare. Some concepts come from Judge Dredd. Some from Moorcock. Some from alchemy, some from latin and some from greek and some from relatively modern history.

It borrows heavily from all of this and claims it as its own original work. (See hubris).


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## fisheyedbunny (Mar 18, 2010)

very interesting thread, some new stuff in there I never knew about 

Over the years as more and more has been added and more is refined it has grown into a fantastic universe. I dont mind that almost all of it is not original, infact I think that makes it even better. Rather than Nurgle being "just Nurgle" I can now go and find out where the name came from and that in turn lets me learn a little about real world history.

The miss-mash of real world refrences could be part of the success of the game as a whole. Regardless of your background/creed/race/hair colour/shoe size you can find something that interests you in an army and then it gives you a starting point. 

I think thats one of the main reasons that Ultramarines are the posterboys of 40K. They are your Roman Legionary. Everyone who knows a little about history knows of Rome. Even if its just from popular media where you think every Legion wore red and was commanded by an Aussie.

Dont have anything really interesting to add, most of the common links are there. One I would say is that Aztec idea for the Thousand Sons was something I had also heard about before. I am unable to give any specific refrences however I think it was something to do with the fact that they too had Pyramids although not flat sided like the Egyptian ones. Aztec pyramids were almost always stepped if I remember correctly. Cant remember anything else


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## Tel Asra Nejoar (Mar 16, 2010)

arent the ultramarines greek? they use a greek letter, run a version of the battle at phenopoly(300 if you will) with calgar and the nids, and have greek helmet crests(they are different to roman).


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I think thats the easier comparison yeah, the Imperial Fists contrast to the Romans don't they?

And in regard to the Aztec/Thousand Sons Comparison, I know that Dan Abnett said that on his blog a few weeks ago, but I've yet to find any real comparison that fits better than Egyptians myself, I'll have to have a look around when I get some spare time.


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## fisheyedbunny (Mar 18, 2010)

yeah their symbol is Greek as far as I know, I was refering to the fact that most non gamers know what a Roman Legionary looks like thanks to films like Gladiator and the Tv show Rome. In this we see the Legion's where everyone looks to be kitted out the same, with the same weapons etc. There is a rigid command structure etc etc that we see accross a lot of military bodies thru history however the Roman one is the one people without a hisotry/wargaming background can identify with. Fits with the Codex structure the Ultra's adhere to. 

I agree tho that they are more Greek than Roman and the Fists seem to fit the Roman bill better. Lets just call them Greco-Roman 

Was thinking about the Aztec theme for the T-Sons. Remebered that they (or the Inca's) had Warrior Priests in thier army. Might be a good link to the Sorcerers there? My buddy is a big Mesoamerican buff so I'll pick his brains when I see him.


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## Zenith_of_Mind (Mar 12, 2010)

fisheyedbunny said:


> I agree tho that they are more Greek than Roman and the Fists seem to fit the Roman bill better. Lets just call them Greco-Roman


Yeah, I think that Ultramarines are more Greek than Roman. Strict discipline etc. like Spartans. Imperial Fists are more Roman-like:cocky and arrogant, but loyal and staunch. 





> Was thinking about the Aztec theme for the T-Sons. *Remebered that they (or the Inca's) had Warrior Priests in thier army.* Might be a good link to the Sorcerers there? My buddy is a big Mesoamerican buff so I'll pick his brains when I see him.


Weak argument here. Every SM chapters has warrior priests among them, so that would mean that all of them are based on the Aztecs. I still haven't seen any evidence of Thousand Sons to be based on the Mesoamericans.


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## fisheyedbunny (Mar 18, 2010)

Zenith_of_Mind said:


> Weak argument here. Every SM chapters has warrior priests among them, so that would mean that all of them are based on the Aztecs. I still haven't seen any evidence of Thousand Sons to be based on the Mesoamericans.


Yeah I know  best I could do without asking someone who knowns what they are talking about :laugh:

In current era they all have Librarians but back in the pre heresy days it was pretty much just them that had the librarians. And after they were banned (Nicea I think it was) they continued to use them so I think the link between the Aztecs and T-Sons is more of a pre heresy link than a 40K era link.

As you said the warrior priests are a pretty thin bit of evidence to go on but its all I can remember just now. I need to speak to my friend who knows about the history.


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## Twisted (Mar 11, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And in regard to the Aztec/Thousand Sons Comparison, I know that Dan Abnett said that on his blog a few weeks ago, but I've yet to find any real comparison that fits better than Egyptians myself, I'll have to have a look around when I get some spare time.


I have to say I don't have a huge amount of knowledge on the Warhammer 40k universe as some here, but what I do know makes the Thousand Sons based more around Egyptian symbolism.

For one the images I've seen of them show what looks like a huge Djed pillar on their head.

...And a quick update, just seen the Thousand Sons symbol of a serpent biting its own tail, which may mean more to the ancient Egyptians than the Aztecs. But then I don't know a great deal about the Aztecs apart from the fact there was a serpent god called Quetzalcoatl, but I doubt he was depicted biting his own tail.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

aztec = sacrifices, blood drinking, tzentech's name, farseers and random lore scattered about.

WH40k borrows from pretty much all history.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Human sacrifice and ritual consumption of human blood are prevalent throughout ancient cultures so they really can't be sole attributed to the Aztecs. Farseers aren’t distinctly Aztec either for that matter.


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## Lord Hunsadia (Apr 30, 2009)

I know that Tau is a star in the Milky Way, so perhaps the race is taken from that? I wouldn't presume to say its why for definite, but I do seem to recall them saying the star is on the galactic west of the Milky Way.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Tau Ceti? Maybe.


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## Lord Hunsadia (Apr 30, 2009)

Oh I apologise. It's actually very close. "Only" 12 light years away.
But enough about my bad Galactic geography.
The point still stands.
As for the name Eldar, I presume that is just a joke on their age. After all they were made by the "old ones" and are "elder" than most of the Galaxy.

I do wish GW had got a "Dwarves in space" army though. They got elves, why no Dwarves?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

They used to have squats.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Lord Hunsadia said:


> Oh I apologise. It's actually very close. "Only" 12 light years away.
> But enough about my bad Galactic geography.
> The point still stands.
> As for the name Eldar, I presume that is just a joke on their age. After all they were made by the "old ones" and are "elder" than most of the Galaxy.
> ...


Of course it could be a direct copy of a sect of the Tolkien Elves called Eldar


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## Lord Hunsadia (Apr 30, 2009)

Haha. Or it could be that.
I think the Tyanoid's are based off my ex's mother. She was snappy. I'd much rather have been introduced to a 'gaunt.
Much kinder.


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## Lord Hunsadia (Apr 30, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> They used to have squats.


What actually happened to them? I hear talk of them but what actually happened?
I presume they are like ratlings?


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

THEIR CIVILISATION GOT EATEN BY THE 'NIDS.

Every so often, someone asks what happened to them. This is GWs answer to them.
The survivors (mining colonies and so on) joined the Tau empire (they have a short, stout, humanoid race that wear pressure suits as an ally - the Demiurg.).


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## Scyfus (Jan 18, 2010)

The bible is so filled with generic stories, it's FAR to easy to try to compare a militaristic future in space, warring with a multitude of aliens, to a book about god smiting humans and the silly adventures they get into.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Scyfus said:


> The bible is so filled with generic stories, it's FAR to easy to try to compare a militaristic future in space, warring with a multitude of aliens, to a book about god smiting humans and the silly adventures they get into.


Well....... you managed to not advance the discussion and alienate Christianity in the process......... tbh I am quite impressed.:clapping:


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## Tel Asra Nejoar (Mar 16, 2010)

lol, squats. they didnt transform into the demiurg who look completely different in the fluff to sqauts, theres just not enough of them left to be viable as a galactic power anymore. theres still hints of them out there though(isnt the conversion beamer originally squat?). as for the serpent eating its own tail, many ancient cultures used it, from the norse(who used it to represent the world serpent who sleeps under the seas and encircles the globe) to the greek(who used it to represent infinity) ouroboros.


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## fisheyedbunny (Mar 18, 2010)

Twisted said:


> ...Aztecs apart from the fact there was a serpent god called Quetzalcoatl, but I doubt he was depicted biting his own tail.


I think that was in the Broken Sword games 

I spoke to my mate last nite who is right into the Aztecs, he doesnt really know much about the T-Sons but from what he knows he cant really see any similarities. The BL authors might be introducing the Aztec themes into the new Thousand Sons book.

If you have read the "Rise Of The Tau" fan story on Bolter & Chainsword you get a good, if fan made, perspective of the Demigure (or however its spelled) and it worked on a lot of the conspiracy theorys in 40K.


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## ajchafe (Aug 13, 2009)

Anyone ever notice that the 8 pointed star looks kinda like the Buddhist symbol for The Noble 8 Fold path? Of course, I'm guessing THAT one is just a coincidence and that GW is not saying Buddhists are evil  

I would say the Ultramarine's are more Grecco-Roman than straight up Greek inspired. Rome borrowed A LOT of imagery from it's neighbors, being stuck in the middle of the Mediteranian and all. And the way their fluff is described, they have an empire of worlds under their control. Also, their names; Calgar, Sicarius, Cassius, are obviously Roman inspired. Add in the fact that they have the most second-founding chapters and it kinda makes them look like the Roman Legions, which would go out and conquer a place, then turn its soldiers into new loyal legions. Certainly there is Greek iconography in their symbolism but there was a lot of Greek Iconography in Roman Art and culture as well.

Maybe they are half Roman Empire, Half Alexander the Great? Though I would say Lord Solar Macurius is more of an Alexander analogue than anyone else.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Human sacrifice and ritual consumption of human blood are prevalent throughout ancient cultures so they really can't be sole attributed to the Aztecs. Farseers aren’t distinctly Aztec either for that matter.


True but most of the time the sacrifices are done atop altars which are typically derived from aztec/mayan rituals.

The term Farseers has more to do with Native Indian culture but the manner in which they are usually described or the way in which they go about predicting the future tends to go along with the whole apocalyptic visions the Aztecs usually 'foresaw'. 

It's hard for me to explain my reasoning and I would go into more detail but meh can't be bothered to.



ajchafe said:


> Anyone ever notice that the 8 pointed star looks kinda like the Buddhist symbol for The Noble 8 Fold path? Of course, I'm guessing THAT one is just a coincidence and that GW is not saying Buddhists are evil


"The Symbol of Chaos originates from Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion stories. In them, the Symbol of Chaos comprises eight arrows in a radial pattern. In contrast, the symbol of Law is a single upright arrow. It is also called the Arms of Chaos, the Arrows of Chaos, the Chaos Star or the Symbol of Eight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol_of_Chaos


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## Twisted (Mar 11, 2010)

Tel Asra Nejoar said:


> as for the serpent eating its own tail, many ancient cultures used it, from the norse(who used it to represent the world serpent who sleeps under the seas and encircles the globe) to the greek(who used it to represent infinity) ouroboros.


Yes, but I doubt Thousand Sons have any great association with either Norse or Greek mythology.

However, the ouroboros with its probable association with change could be a good symbol for any followers of Tzeentch to use.


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