# Versus Eldar Skimmers



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

*Versus: Week Seven​*
They're fast, heavily armed and neigh impossible to shoot down. Whether it's Falcons with their holofields, or Wave Serpents with their force fields, or those menacing fire prisms, eldar skimmers are something that elicit groans whenever they hit the table...and lobbing railgun slugs just ain't going to cut it this time.

So how do you deal with the Jetsons tank of doom?


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## solitaire (Mar 24, 2008)

People usually beat my Fire Prism by shaking it every turn so I often end up tank shocking and exposing my rear armour of 10, even bolters will break through that, and yet I never learn . Or you could just hope for a lucky shot .


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

mass fire power i believe is the best way but if you can get some terminators to deep strike in the rear armor your sorted, but considering skimmers are fast manoverable you will hardly get the rear armor unless you have a skimmer too or bikes


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## demon of greed (Jan 20, 2008)

assault marines with melta bombs? as they are alowed to deepstrike posably with a dreadnought for suport(comes in drop pod), ive never actualy played eldar in a high enough point game for them to use tanks/ skimmers just a vibro cannon which seemed to do alot of damage lol


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## Desolatemm (Feb 2, 2008)

Galahad said:


> Eldar skimmers are something that elicit groans whenever they hit the table...


Man its all too true... I have decided to play less skimmers just because they arise the now popular phrase "I F****** hate the Eldar...". Anyway, lots of fire can at least shake the skimmers, in the case of the Fireprism thats all you need. But, the strength of the Falcons and Waveserpents are the fact that they can transport and protect units (thats all they are good for really). Everyone fears a squad of Firedragons or Harlequin coming at them when there is no way to stop it :biggrin: Although the lucky roles do come up and when they do, there is a mass load of points down the drain. But that doesnt happen all that often making any of the eldar skimmers well worth the buy.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Daemon, meltabombs will be hard because it's 6+ to hit a moving skimmer in assault, and even then it's not penetration that's the problem.

The problem is even if you have a half dozen lascannons, it's neigh impossible to shoot them down. Best you can do is shake them up a little, thanks to all their defensive systems. (Holo-field means when rolling for penetration you roll twice and pick the lowest, spirit stones convert stunned to shaken, vectored thrusters mean an immobilization doesn't kill them if they're moving fast...and of course, skimmers moving fast means you can only ever glance them)

Something I want to try with my orks is the Grabbin Klaw. It's a vehicle upgrade that lets me pull up alongside another vehicle and keep it from moving for a turn. I might put one on the wagon full of tankbustas...though slapping them on cheap, expendable trukks might be good too


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## MarzM (Jan 26, 2007)

Well since you mentoned Railguns i take it your using Tau. If thats the case i would say your in a good position to stop Eldar skimmers.

First of all, take Piranhas and close off the back doors, then hit them with as many deathrains has you can get you hands on. All those S7 shots kick in sooner or later and if the tank cant shoot and the troops cant get out, it's one useless taxi! lol

MarzM


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Actually, Marz, the 'versus' threads are for everyone to discuss their methods of taking down the given target (check out the rules and ideas sticky), I mentioned railguns because there's been a rash of "Well, if you're playing Tau just shoot it with railguns til it goes away." solutions. Valid, perhaps, but not exciting to hear for the 5th time in a row.

Good advice though, and fresh. Good to see the piranhas come out.


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

Are we talking about Eldar doing the JSJ thing too? That changes the tactic a bit if they do that


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## Absolute035 (Jan 13, 2008)

Autocannons... first turn shots, first turn indirect fire (damn you IG)

Railguns, seems like a bit of a waste, but will keep them shaken


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## Frostbite (Oct 17, 2007)

Your best bet is S7+ weapons that fire multiple shots, such as Autocannons or Missile Pods, twin linked if possible. The key is to throw so many shots at them, the law of averages says they have to get more than shaken. You can also try to keep whatever is inside from getting favorable circumstances when they do come out and just try to keep the skimmers from firing while you deal with the rest. While the payload may be tough, they can't assault when they get out and so you'll get a full turn of unleashing your army on them. Once the cargo is dead, then just pound away at the skimmers till something gives.


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## Desolatemm (Feb 2, 2008)

The most difficult thing for me is scouts with big guns... I think the most effective way to down an eldar skimmer is to get first turn shots at it. This guy ran 2 bikes with meltas on me, got first turn after their scout move and destroyed one falcon and a fireprism first turn... nasty... Of course there is a 50-50 chance of you getting first turn, but thats better than your normal odds for downing an eldar skimmer...


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## solitaire (Mar 24, 2008)

When me and my friend used to play without terrain he would often get the first turn but instead of aiming his guns on my Fire Prism he would shoot at my wraithlord which only had a bright lance and a wraithsword so even though he would kill it the Prism would survive, I told him his mistakes every time we played but he never learnt . He would then ask me why he always lost.


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## Ubiquitous (Feb 17, 2008)

Well, as for how to kill eldar skimmers, I have a simple solution: Wait for 5th edition to nerf skimmer rules. Sure, having to reroll a penetrating hit is only a 25% chance, but I'll take that any day. Until then, refuse to play any lists that run more than 3 :biggrin:


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Ubiquitous said:


> Until then, refuse to play any lists that run more than 3 :biggrin:


Luckily, only skimmers taken as heavy support choices are really hard to kill. Wave serpents aren't nearly as bad because they can't be given holo-fields, and it's the holofields that makes eldar skimmers nigh unto impossible to kill because on the 2 dice you roll for a glancing result there are 4 out of 36 possibilities that kill the skimmer, or roughly an 11% chance, as opposed to the usual 33% chance of taking a skimmer down that's moving fast. So basically if you get 9 glancing hits on it then it will go down in flames, on average. 

Since it's a skimmer and you can only ever glance it (barring other mojo) then you want quantity over quality in your shots. Railguns are reliable but I'd rather have a deathrain suit team for taking down an eldar skimmer because they can generate more glances. Any weapons with a high rate of fire and decent str (this usually means str 7 and sometimes 8) is good. Autocannons/missile pods/lootas all work well st str 7 because the AV 12 is not impressive. Exorcist tanks and mass tankbustas are a few ways to get high volume str 8 shots too.

Its rear armor is 10, so deepstriking a unit behind it can really ruin its day. Terminators with combi-plasma or assault cannons work great, as do tau stealth teams or any other deepstriking shooting unit with high rate of fire weapons (GKs with psycannons is another good choice).

Most of the time, however, it's not worth taking down a fire prism/falcon. Shoot at them until you get a glancing hit, and be happy with the shaken. Take the rest of their army apart. Sure the fire dragons can disembark and mess up one of your units, but then you get to shoot the crap out of them on your turn. Similarly, Harlequins will not be able to disembark and charge on the same turn, so use that to your advantage. Keep your army somewhat together so that units can support each other. If one gets killed by fire dragons/whatever is in the flacon, the other can get revenge. If it's a fire prism just shake it and try to get your angles of fire such that it can't retreat out of LoS to get rid of the shaken.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Desolatemm said:


> This guy ran 2 bikes with meltas on me, got first turn after their scout move and destroyed one falcon and a fireprism first turn... nasty...


Unless he was playing Dark Angels, you got cheated there. Except for Ravenwing squads, only Scout Bikers get a scout move, and they don't get meltas

That said, a marine scout squad with a missile launcher is always fun.

Steel Rain, we're just talking about skimmers, not jetbikes.


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## azalin_r3x (Feb 25, 2008)

many ppl complain about them and i can't understand why tbh...

you just shoot a unit with like 6-8 shots of 6-7 str at each and they will get a glance, they most probably will not shoot, so they get useless for a round, and you just continue killing the rest of their armies ignoring them. If by any chance you break a weapon, then fire prisms are useless, and falcons usually are left with a str6 weapon, on immobilize things are even better, since next glance will be penetrating, and ofc in the rare case of double 6, it gets destroyed.

only thing that actually is irritating about them, is that they can still be scoring units till the end of the game, other than that, it's just too many points wasted for the eldar.

and yeah, i just use vypers (atm at least)


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Most people don;t bring 6-8 str7 shots every turn. That represents a big investment of firepower, just in the hopes of *damaging* the damned thing, to say nothing of actually killing it. Marines, for example, don't have much multi-shot S7+ stuff besides plasma guns (short ranged) and the AC variant of the predator, so it would mean firing a metric fuckton of missiles and las at it...more than most marine armies have.

That's why they're frustrating. That and the aforementioned 'can pretty much always score' issue. A pair of crippled fire prisms won;t dso much damage, but when they streak over and tank-shock people away from objectives at the last minute suddenly they;ve more than made up their points. 

I think Tau and Orks have about the best chance against skimmers. Deathrains were made for skimmer hunting, and a band of lootas can unleash enough firepiwer to tear even a well protected falcon apart in one good volley.


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## Deceiver (Sep 19, 2007)

necron destroyers have a very good chance as well. esp. if I can go 1rst and get a pen or 2 on them before they start moving more than 6".


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## Steel Rain (Jan 14, 2008)

This one is ugly. From an IG perspective, an fire support team with 3 autocannons is a good start. Add in a chimera or two from an armored fist squad and the fire prism should drop. Tank power would be best spent knocking out Eldar troops unless you've got no other target.


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## Sleedon (Jan 22, 2008)

I've had my wave serpent and 6 fire dragons blown to hell by 12 fire warriors charging it with emp grenades. There is an average of 2 hitting and that might be enough to take it out or at least immobilize it.


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## teplicuss (Apr 5, 2008)

i usally rend them with my death company, or with my speeders from behind. or i drop 2 lass and two missles on them every round from my dev squade. Seems to do well. I think the trick is haveing somthing like bikes and speeders to chase and hunt them.


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## orky1 (Oct 16, 2008)

I took one out with 8 lootas. I had 3 shots per character, 24 shots scored 3 glancing and one pentrating. Got a 6 on the pentrating, life was good


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## newsun (Oct 6, 2008)

Run a really mech list with lots of tanks and ram them?


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

i've only faced one with my 3,000 points of Word Bearers back in 4ed and it was tough as nails to get rid of. i ended up getting rid of it by cutting it off and then my dreadnought conveniently went apeshit and charged it. by by skimmer.

in apoc i've faced numerous ones and they are a serious pain in the ass to get rid of. i got rid of one by immobilizing it and blowing it to hell with my basilisks. one got caught up with my defilers and the last got caught between my havocs and my predators and land raiders. i gots enough firepower to definately get rid of them before they get close, unless of course the map has a lot of shit on it such as buildings and the like, then it becomes interesting:biggrin:


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## Desolatemm (Feb 2, 2008)

Now that 5th is here, Eldar skimmer spamming isn't as effective with the loss of the always glancing rule. However, a new opponent has come up.

Two Falcons

Eldrad

Cover Saves 

Fortune

... Re-rolable 4+ saves against anything (short of CC attacks) when they go flat out across the board

HOW IN HELL DO YOU STOP THAT!?


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## Daneel2.0 (Jul 24, 2008)

Well, I can think of several ways off the top of my head but most of them come down to throw tons of dakka at them.

The 4+ cover save is a pain, and the re-roll is worse, but that's still 25% of shots get through. 

Now, if Eldrad isn't in one of the Falcons (and I don't remember whether there are firing ports, so I don't know if he can be in one) then killing him off is FOR SURE something that should be done in any event. That would eliminate the fortune problems. 

Finally, CC is always an option for those that are inclined towards it (generally not Necrons, but in this case w/ enough scarabs w/ D-fields I'd go for it).


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

It's worth looking at this again now that the rules have changed so much.

How do you stop two fortuned up falcons going flat out? You probably don't. It would be easy to fire a whole army at them and do nothing. I'd therefore advise against firing against them unless you have guys who really can't do anything else, or guys with melta guns nearby.

Instead, shoot at stuff that will actually die when shot. Take out scoring units and ranged threats. Shoot Eldrad, if he isn't in one of the falcons. Be proactive and run your own plan, keep attacking what you want to attack and moving where you want to move.

You should then look at mitigating the impact of the stuff in the falcons. Inside each falcon will either be a shooty unit or a CC unit, and these require totally different treatment.

A CC unit wants to assault, obviously. It has probably driven right at a bunch of your guys, ready to let its cargo out to start beating you up. Two rules become important here: first that the guys inside can only assault if they get out before the falcon moves and secondly that they can't get out if the door is blocked. So, if you can, block the door! That way the falcon has to move to let its guys out, and those guys then can't charge you. It usually isn't the end of the world if some howling banshees choose to shoot one of your squads with shuriken pistols. Alternatively, if you can't block the door consider sticking a disposable unit (kroot are perfect for this) near the tank and having your other guys get out of range to be charged. This may mean losing some shots. The bait unit dies, you shoot the eldar dead, and we carry on with the game.

If you are going to get assaulted, and you probably are, think hard about how you position your own units. It's bad to put two units close together, because it allows assaulters to charge both. Try not to put a tank at right next to a squad, or you can find that the enemy power fist guy has charged your tank and his friends have gone for the squad.

If the falcon has shooters inside then there's really a lot less you can do to prevent them from firing. Somebody is going to get shot. Watch out especially for fire dragons, who are insanely dangerous for vehicles. If you can, get your most valuable vehicles away from the falcon so that at least he can't get 2d6 armour penetration against you. If he has dire avengers or something like that, then some of your infantry are about to die - and you need to get ready for what happens after that.

A counter-charge unit can be very useful, especially against the shooty eldar types. Fire dragons will be a lot less happy to go and melt IG tanks if there are rough riders nearby, for example. Eldar shooty units tend to be pretty rubbish in CC, so you don't need a really great unit to take them out. You do need your counter charge guys to be very, very fast though, because it's nearly impossible to predict where the blow will land and you don't want to spend your time chasing the enemy around. Assault termies would not be a good option at all, for example - they are for sending towards the enemy.

Sometimes, against either shooty or cc units in a falcon, it's obvious what the target is and there's nothing you can do to prevent it. You now have one turn for this unit to go out in a blaze of glory, or not. Throw caution to the wind because the unit is dead anyway, and see what you can kill. Position other units ready to avenge their (soon to be) fallen comrades.

Later, think a bit about the unit and whether it is working properly. If you have a big unit that keeps getting picked on and wiped out, maybe the problem is with your unit, not the enemy or your strategy. Armies like eldar and Tau are extremely good at concentrating power on a unit and there's no cast iron defence against it. If you have all your eggs in one basket you can expect to suffer. Build redundancy into your list so that you have multiple ways of hurting each kind of enemy unit, or you can expect to find all your ways to kill particular stuff (say, eldar skimmers) are gone.

Now a word or two on how to go about actually killing eldar skimmers, if that's what you need to do. There has been a major shift in the effectiveness of different weapons against eldar skimmers between the editions, so it's worth looking at what now works less well, or better. There has been quite a reversal in terms of what’s the best tool for the job, but they remain pretty hard to take out.

Major changes have taken place with the mechanics. Fast skimmers now get a cover save instead of just taking glancing hits, and the actual damage tables have changed so that you can't normally kill a vehicle with a glance. Skimmers have to go over 12" to get this cover save (unless they are actually in cover). You don’t always need a 6 to hit a skimmer in cc, if it isn’t moving quickly, and you now hit its rear armour. You know who will have the first turn when you deploy (which isn’t really an issue about how skimmers are damaged, but will affect how they are deployed).

4th edition tactics were simply to spray and pray. There was no point hitting a skimmer with a melta gun at close range when you could have similar chances of killing it with an autocannon or multi laser. Now, the opposite is the case. A glancing hit on a skimmer is now almost worthless because it can’t kill the thing and it may not be destroyed on an immobilised result, or if it can be killed because it’s going quickly, the skimmer is going to have a 4+ cover save, maybe with a reroll. On the other hand, the melta can now get penetrating hits, and gets +1 on the table due to being AP1. 

AP1 is actually highly significant against holofield equipped vehicles. An AP2 weapon has a 1/9 chance of killing a skimmer and AP1 has a ¼ chance. That’s more than twice as good (though still not a certainty, by any means). Still, a melta shot is considerably better than a lascannon (especially close, where it is very likely to penetrate), and far, far better than stuff like autocannons and missile pods.

That has an impact on weapon choice. In 4th, autocannon-type stuff was very popular because it could be used effectively against both infantry and vehicles. That really isn’t the case any more. It makes more sense to go for the extreme ends of what’s available, flamers and heavy bolters, meltas and lascannons, than to go for mid-range plasma/autocannon set ups. Plasma guns and cannons do still rock, but not quite as much as they did in 4th.

CC is much more viable, especially if you can charge on turn 1. A unit like a land speeder storm with scouts inside can quite easily get a charge against an eldar skimmer before it moves, and then has a decent chance of killing or immobilising it in its own deployment zone. You may also find that the passengers are deployed outside the tank sometimes, so they can be assaulted (or shot) before they get in. Maybe you can have a power fist guy charge the tank while his unit charges the fire dragons, which would really spoil the eldar guy’s day. This probably won’t happen too much, as they are probably less vulnerable inside the tank than on foot, and eldar players will realise that.

So anyway, different. Hope some of the above makes sense.


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## Vashtek (Nov 2, 2007)

Alot of what someguys says above above makes sense, but bear in mind a common tactic with falcons(especially when eldar go second) is to avoid engagement until turn 5 (partially by sticking the army in reserve), then boost onto the objectives, moving whatever is on there off it with tank shock.

This has obvious risks such as the game not ending on tun 5, but means you really have to have a plan against falcons in an objective based game that is not just ignoring them.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

That's a good point. Still, if they aren't there yet then you can't do much to them. I was really talking about what to do when you are being attacked by them.

There's a growing tendency for people to not deploy if they are going 2nd, or against stuff like drop pods and daemons. I think it's a bit silly really, though you can't fault the wisdom of doing it. Why are the marines drop podding into an empty field?.

Last turn skimmer rushes are rather less common, which is good. It's a hell of a gamble on the eldar player's part. It can be countered by parking rhinos on the objective


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## Desolatemm (Feb 2, 2008)

Daneel2.0 said:


> Now, if Eldrad isn't in one of the Falcons (and I don't remember whether there are firing ports, so I don't know if he can be in one) then killing him off is FOR SURE something that should be done in any event. That would eliminate the fortune problems.


5th changed the rules for psy powers. Since Fortune does not need LoS, the vehicle does not need fire-ports and is just measured from the vehicles hull. So Eldrad can sit back in his cozzy falcon with Prince Yriel and four other warlocks fortuning the crap out of their falcon and the other falcon carrying troops and flat out every turn until its time to jump out and kill in cc and score an objective. Even with just Eldrad in a falcon, he can be a pain in the ass of many.


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## Shadowfire (Mar 20, 2010)

Kudos to Someguy for a thorough run through

I'll summise in 3 words

1. Combat

2 & 3. Rear Armour

A lot of responses have looked at particular weapon combos which will have preferable stat chances to downing said vehicles, let's look at tactica and the that means going for weak spots.

1. Combat. Obviously against skimmers this is harder so a Stunned or Immobilised target is preferable, the important part is following it up. In the same way Eldar forces rely on synergy, so is the key to their downfall.
Combat negates the Wave Serpents Energy Field, auto targets rear armour, giving S4 a chance, and can also block the 1 entry point, thus destroying it's valuable cargo.

2. Rear Armour. AV 10... enough said

Though you will now find more experienced Eldar players adopting a 'backs to the wall' anti-tactic to prevent this, using impassable and board edges.

But then I can't help just anti Eldar forces on how to defeat some of our best units


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