# Storm Raven and Other Chapters.



## Imperators Warden (Nov 15, 2010)

Ok guys didn't know where else to put it. But, since the rules for the Storm Raven were put into WD; my local GW store is allowing any power armoured army to take them. Without permission from your opponent! My question as a Vanilla Marine player is, should I take it?


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## Dagmire (Oct 9, 2008)

This is complete BS. If you tried to run it in anything other then a BA or GK list i would not play you.
Do you feel its ok to take Thunder wolf cav? Maybe my guard could take a land raider.
If its not in your codex then your not playing me. simple, If my local (not been in a while) tried to pull this I would leave.
It just a way of GW trying to sell the fucking thing.
We cover this in our latest Podcast. We talk about this and IA being made a free for all.
Have a listen.

http://www.theoverlords.co.uk/podcast/


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Actually there is a difference between the examples you just listed and the stormraven is that there is a justification for the stormraven to turn up in other armies.

For starters Thunderwolf cav are only ever native to Fenris. I doubt the wolves would be willing to share them nor do I think they would appreciate every known marine chapter to be rooting around their home planet.

Guard may have been able to take in LR in the far past but now they cannot and as far as I am aware it was by the Emperors sanction that the guard do not have LR. Judging by this I am struggling to find reasons why the guard may have broken one of the Big E's rules.

However on the topic of the Stormraven it was originally a GK vehicle and since the BA managed to get their hands on it I fail to see why other marine chapters have been unable to attain the designs. Or why it was not shared among other marine chapters like the Crusader when it was made by BT.

Back to the OP's original question I say go for it. Although I am basing this on the fact that I play tiger striped marines and I think a matching Stormraven would look awesome even if it failed.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Actually, Guard can take Land Raiders- so long as you have the Witch Hunter/Daemonhunter (although Daemonhunters will only be usable for a little longer) books. As GW said, allies are still allowed, so long as you have the hard copy that describes the allies rules. So take an inquisitor with a dedicated Land Raider transport and you're set.

As for the Stormraven, I'd think it's fine, so long as you offer some in-game advantage to your opponent- you could offer to allow them to list tailor, or take units outside of their codex (craftworld eldar players could take voidravens, etc), and I doubt you could refuse the use of Forgeworld models. So long as you let them name their price, and you're ok with that, go for it.


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## Dagmire (Oct 9, 2008)

coke123 said:


> Actually, Guard can take Land Raiders- so long as you have the Witch Hunter/Daemonhunter (although Daemonhunters will only be usable for a little longer) books. As GW said, allies are still allowed, so long as you have the hard copy that describes the allies rules. So take an inquisitor with a dedicated Land Raider transport and you're set.
> 
> As for the Stormraven, I'd think it's fine, so long as you offer some in-game advantage to your opponent- you could offer to allow them to list tailor, or take units outside of their codex (craftworld eldar players could take voidravens, etc), and I doubt you could refuse the use of Forgeworld models. So long as you let them name their price, and you're ok with that, go for it.


So guard cant take a LR, their allies can....... (i have been playing WH for 2 years, i get that)

So whats to stop me saying my guard have found lizard mounts on a planet. they ride them and count as TWC.
Seems fair if you want to argue fluff.


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

Dagmire said:


> So guard cant take a LR, their allies can....... (i have been playing WH for 2 years, i get that)
> 
> So whats to stop me saying my guard have found lizard mounts on a planet. they ride them and count as TWC.
> Seems fair if you want to argue fluff.


they often do, but call them rough riders


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Dagmire said:


> So guard cant take a LR, their allies can....... (i have been playing WH for 2 years, i get that)
> 
> So whats to stop me saying my guard have found lizard mounts on a planet. they ride them and count as TWC.
> Seems fair if you want to argue fluff.


Like I said, ask your opponent and offer them some variety of advantage to compensate. If they feel that strongly about it, then that's fine, just don't use them. But it never hurts to ask, and offer something to sweeten the deal for them.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Imperators Warden said:


> Ok guys didn't know where else to put it. But, since the rules for the Storm Raven were put into WD; my local GW store is allowing any power armoured army to take them. Without permission from your opponent! My question as a Vanilla Marine player is, should I take it?


You can if you fancy but it's flat cheating, no questions about it just cheating. Your local GW allows it because they want to sell more Storm Ravens. So you can buy one but you'll only ever be able to use it in that GW until they decide to follow the actual rules of the game they sell. Or in a pre-arranged game with your opponents permission.


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## Whitehorn (Dec 17, 2009)

Imperators Warden said:


> My question as a Vanilla Marine player is, should I take it?


Why ask here? You're going to start up an argument that really shouldn't have any weight on your decision.

Do you play at your local store? Do you play elsewhere? Look at your gaming environment and your opponents and make a decision based on that social circle.

If you want a Storm Raven, then use one - your circle allows it.

When you face Dagmire, leave it on the shelf for a game.

We're all playing a game here.


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## Deathscythe4722 (Jul 18, 2010)

In friendly games? Knock yourself out.

Just keep in mind, as Aramoro said, it IS technically cheating since you are taking a unit that is not present in your codex, although the notion of "cheating" is laughable if no prizes are on the line and you TELL your opponent that you are doing it beforehand.

Just make sure you get your opponent's permission first. While using a vehicle designed to be used by a Marine army in a slightly different Marine army shouldn't alter the intended game balance too much, the fact remains that it DOES alter it.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

First off, it's not cheating...



BBB Pg. 2 said:


> The most important rule then is that the rules aren't all that important! So long as both players agree, you can treat them as sacrosanct or mere guidelines -- the choice is entirely yours.


So in your gaming circle where your FLGS says it's ok, it's ok. 

IF you tried to push this on someone who wasn't willing to go with the idea outside your FLGS, _*then*_ you'd be trying to cheat. However, people who choose to play at your FLGS, do so by their own free will. If the management of your FLGS made this rule, and they still choose to play there, they by default choose to play under this rule.

It's the same anywhere in life. Go to the movie theater, you choose to do so under their rules about being quiet during the show. Go to a restaurant that has a dress code, you choose to do so under their rules about what you can and can not wear. These rules do not extend beyond the borders of the theater or restaurant, but when you choose to go there, you choose to play by their rules. The same can be said about any specific tournament you might enter, or anything else for that matter.... 



Secondly, we shouldn't compare apples with oranges. What marines do is different than what Guard does, etc. So the IG/Marine examples don't really apply, but marine to marine examples (TWC) does. 

For example: Guard doesn't use LR's, but SW, BA, BT, DA & all vanilla marines do. Guard doesn't use power armor, but SW, BA, BT, DA, & all vanilla do, etc. Same with speeders, bikes, terminator armor, dreads, etc.

When comparing apples to apples we see that sometimes new vehicle designs spread as with the LR Crusader which originated with BT's in the Armageddon codex and then made it's way to other chapters, and most recently the LR Redeemer in which the fluff states:



SM Codex Pg. 83 said:


> In the wake of the Grissen campaign, Phoros disseminated his new design's schematics.


So we have two clear examples of LR designs originating with one chapter spreading to others, not to mention (as has already been shared) the BA's having gotten the stormraven design from the GK's.


We also have examples a plenty of designs that did not spread, and specifically from the BA's. Baal Preds, Furioso dreads, etc. have been around as part of BA lore for a long time now and have yet to make it into either the 4th or 5th ed SM codex. So just because it's happened before doesn't mean it always happens.

However, it is just as likely the other vanilla chapters could get the design from the GK's just as the BA's did....


The bottom line?

It is possible fluff wise, other chapters could get a hold of the stormraven in the 6th ed. dex, it is also possible they wont, but it matters little because if your gaming circle and FLGS want to play it as all SM's have access to it then you should feel 100% free to play it that way within those circles.


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## Imperators Warden (Nov 15, 2010)

*Thanks for the replies.*



Dagmire said:


> This is complete BS. If you tried to run it in anything other then a BA or GK list i would not play you.
> Do you feel its ok to take Thunder wolf cav? Maybe my guard could take a land raider.
> If its not in your codex then your not playing me. simple, If my local (not been in a while) tried to pull this I would leave.
> It just a way of GW trying to sell the fucking thing.
> ...


Well as far as the LGWS is concerned "Any power armoured force may take the Storm Raven." That was the exact wording I received. Also, "Without having to ask." This also includes tournaments at that local GW shop. I imagine, in a tourney, refusing to play against said SR would be a forfeiture; at least at this store. Now, I understand why this has occurred. GW wants to move more plastic. So, I am sure this will happen in more than one store. But, this is potentially a huge advantage to any PAA in terms of Tournies; well at this store at least.



coke123 said:


> Like I said, ask your opponent and offer them some variety of advantage to compensate. If they feel that strongly about it, then that's fine, just don't use them. But it never hurts to ask, and offer something to sweeten the deal for them.


I would have no problem doing this. But, there are unscrupulous types out there; and sometimes I want to stack the deck. :biggrin: But, in reality, a refusal in a friendly game is no problem. Though, refusal in a tournament could cost you. 

Though, the crux of my original question is whether it is worth taking? It was more of question of their performance on the battlefield. Having never played against one and honestly only having scanned the rules in the WD.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

It's a move from GW to make people actually buy the kit. I think they realized that they goofed when they made a $70 plastic kit that only one army can utilize, and isn't something you -must- have for the army the way something similar like a Stegadon is for Lizardmen. 

I painted the black box Stormraven in my chapters' colors, even though Codex chapters can't use it at the moment, with the understanding that I'd just play with it in Apocalypse. And that seems to be a good fit for the model, in general-- it provides Space Marines with a model which is the size of a superheavy vehicle but still fits the general fast strike playstyle.


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## Imperial Valor (Sep 1, 2010)

My local GW is allowing it too, manager says that they were purposely put in their so that everyone could use them.
Personally I run a Stormraven with Deathwing, scary as hell.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

This is a idea that is ahead of its time. By the time 6th edition rolls around i bet this will be the rule an not the exception.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

What you should do is ask your opponent even though you don't have to. This way you make yourself out to be someone who believes in fair play.

If the manager should object your being a sportsman then pack up and leave.

On a seperate note, this will a moot point in a year or two when the new Space Marine codex comes out, because they'll have a flyer of their own.

Until then though I will say that I think this sudden decision to just throw people new models to use, even though they aren't in the codex, just to make money is WRONG! It tells those of us who aren't yet slaves to trends that we are second-class customers where GW is concerned.


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

I have been playing 40K for more years than I care to mention...to my mind if you want to play something odd-ball, talk it over with your oppo first. A lot of the smaller Forge World models that are available to all factions of a particular race are not in any Codex, but this does not preclude you from including them in your army...it is still good manners to let your opponent know though.

For example...my own Marine army does not use Land Speeders - they use Tempests exclusively. This doesn't mean that I expect my opponent to go along with the idea so it's more than fair to tell them my army contains them.

Similarly, my Tau army includes a number of the Battlesuit variants from the Taros campaign. Not in the Codex but still technically legal for my army, and again I would check my opponent would be happy for me to play them.

As for the Storm Raven...my immediate thought when I knew it was to be released was the fact that they couldn't possibly sell enough kit's to GK and BA players to justify the design and production costs...that's why Forge World exists. 

So then, you have to ask yourself what GW's long term strategy is for sales of the model. It makes financial sense for them to be able to push this out to all Marine players and there is rumoured to be an article released in a future White Dwarf detailing how the Raven can be incorporated into any Marine army.

My local GW was also pushing the line that any Marine army can use it...I personally don't have an issue with it...just another target!


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

why is the most important rule always so easily forgotten by people who demand the rules be followed so closely?.

if your shop, gaming group or whatever has said its fine to use then its fine to use, against strangers just ask, unless they are a complete jerk like dag who likes to make utterly moronic retarded stupid statements of comparrison (while plugging that damn podcast) like other chapters using thunderwolves, they should have no problem at all with any marine army using a vehicle which background wise is NOT stated as being solely used by twilight angels and gay knights, and if they are like dag you just tell them to piss off and play with someone else while they stand around doing nothing.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> why is the most important rule always so easily forgotten by people who demand the rules be followed so closely?


I know... it is ironic isn't it? 





The Sullen One said:


> Until then though I will say that I think this sudden decision to just throw people new models to use, even though they aren't in the codex, just to make money is WRONG! It tells those of us who aren't yet slaves to trends that we are second-class customers where GW is concerned.


Why is it wrong? GW used to issue Chapter Approved articles that would retro-affect certain armies all the time. They slowed it way down for a while, and now recently, have been bringing it back. 

Several years back in WD they did that 2 part update for the BA's, and then just recently did the two FAQ/Errata updates for the DA's and BT's. IMO why should the DA and BT players have to wait as long as they did for that to happen? Why shouldn't they be brought up to the same equipment level of the vanilla chapters just because they're codex's came out before the vanilla dex? Personally, I think that every chapter should have access to the same shield just as they have access to the same power armor, bolters, Rhino's etc. 

In the case of the storm shield it's clear by the new FAQ's that GW intended all marine chapters to have access to the same equipment, and while this isn't always the case (i.e. Baal Preds, TWC, Ironclad Dreads, Thunderfire Cannons, etc.), most of the time it is. 

So... (1) why would it be wrong if GW decided the Stormraven is one of those pieces of equipment that's to be shared by all chapters like Rhinos, LR's + variants, Razorbacks, Bikes, etc. are? Why is it wrong for GW to (just like the BT/DA FAQ) decide to make this change before the 6th ed SM codex comes out?

And (2) why is wrong for GW to make a model kit, expand it's use to all marine armies, and hope that they make money? Isn't that why they make the vast majority of their all purpose marine kits (Rhinos, Razorbacks, Speeders, Bikes, LR's + variants, Terminators, Assault Terminators, etc.)? Don't they hope with all those kits to increase total sales by making them available to all types of marine players and therefore to make more money?


I guess I don't understand why that's wrong? :dunno:





.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Don't fret about it too much. I would actually encourage my opponents to use them just to see how awesome they look not painted in either a variant of red or silver. I personally plan on getting one this weekend even though I use vanilla marines because a lot of the guys agree with me that it would look awesome in tiger stripes (My army's paint scheme). The fact it is allowed in my local GW as well makes me want to believe that the WD guys forgot to mention it is for all power armoured armies (That are loyalist-sos spiky. Erm I mean chaos marines). Even beside that the locals where I live also acknowledge my main point where there is no fluff justification on why the stormraven has been kept exclusively to the grey knights and blood angel followers. 

I don't know why people are getting so heated about it. It is hardly overpowered for a marine army and is hardly out of character for the force. If GW were to release a dead solid hard to kill unit with a 2+ followed by a 2++ save for an army like Eldar which is full of fragile stuff then I could understand anger being generated from it. The Stormraven still blows up just as easily from lascannons as most other vehicles.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Uber Ork said:


> I guess I don't understand why that's wrong? :dunno:


you almost get this feeling as if giving other chapters a vehicle designed for 1 chapter has never ever ever happened before in the entire history of 40k...or has it?...no of course it never has












has it?


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

I think once we see flyers for most if not all races this will be the option for all marine chapters as standard. its an ugly bastard but the kit is very good


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Stella Cadente said:


> you almost get this feeling as if giving other chapters a vehicle designed for 1 chapter has never ever ever happened before in the entire history of 40k...or has it?...no of course it never has
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Or the...









About which the codex says


> *BBB Pg. 80*
> The notion of fitting a high-calibre cannon into the hull of a Rhino first evolved during the very early years of the Horus Heresy, during the fierce inner-city battles on Rothern 1. ... Large-bore thunderer cannons were mounted onto remodeled and up-armored Rhino chassis. Thus was born the Vindicator, undisputed victor of the Rothern 1 campaign, and evermore an essential part of any Space Marine Chapter's armoury.



Or the...









About which the codex says


> *BBB Pg. 83*
> Biting back his mounting frustration, Phoros directed his Techmarines to construct a weapon that would win the war. ... In the wake of the Grissen campaign, Phoros disseminated his new design's schematics.



Or the...









About which the codex says


> *BBB Pg. 77*
> The vast armouries of the Space Marines contain many types of fighting vehicles. Some have been used for thousands of years whilst others, like the Razorback, have only recently been discovered. ... the Razorback has been in use for a mere four thousand years, whilst the Rhino and Predator predate the Horus Heresy ... Despite the Razorback's proven effectiveness, some Space Marine Chapters regard it with distrust, claiming that it is 'new' technology and still not sufficiently proven in battle.




So there's 4 solid examples, the LR Crusader originated with the BT's, the Vindicator that originated from an unnamed chapter(s) in the Rothern 1 campaign, the LR Redeemer which originated with the Fire Lords Chapter and Captain Jaric Phoros, and the Razorback which has only been in service for 4,000 years. Each started with one Chapter(s) and has/is spreading to all the others.


In addition. I think the same thing is implied with units like the...








..........................................*AND*..........................................









...where it isn't specifically stated in the codex, but where it's clear they weren't around in previous editions of the SM dex. They had to have originated at some point (in between 4th and 5th ed) with some Chapter(s), and then had their design schematics disseminated to the others.




.


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## Imperators Warden (Nov 15, 2010)

Interestingly enough and kind of off topic. The Land Speeder Storm, according to Epic Armageddon, was the first variant of the Land Speeder.


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

It'll be available to all chapters soon enough I reckon... GW want monies.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Uber Ork said:


> I guess I don't understand why that's wrong? :dunno:


In this case what's wrong it is it's misleading local players. Say someone plays there and has their sweet triple Storm Raven Salamander list that they love. They rock up to another store or to a tourney, oops their list is illegal and they have £120 worth of models they cannot use there. That GW is misleading it's customers into thinking they're are building legal armies for tournies when they are not. 

What GW does in the future with the Storm Raven is irrelevant really.


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## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> In this case what's wrong it is it's misleading local players. Say someone plays there and has their sweet triple Storm Raven Salamander list that they love. They rock up to another store or to a tourney, oops their list is illegal and they have £120 worth of models they cannot use there. That GW is misleading it's customers into thinking they're are building legal armies for tournies when they are not.
> 
> What GW does in the future with the Storm Raven is irrelevant really.


Imperators Warden would really have to answer this, but it seems like he understood this was a decision his local GW store was making for only their store. There'll always be those who "missed the memo," but it stands to good reason that if Imperators Warden understood this, so did the rest of the people that play at the store. 

If the store was purposely misleading people by telling them they could use the Stormraven anyplace, anywhere (including tournaments) without player permission I would agree with you. However, that's not what Imperators Warden made it sound like was happening. :dunno:


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Ah I hadn't quite taken that from his statement. As long as they're making it clear that it's a local ruling then it's fine, go wild. Presumably 'All Power Armoured Forces' means Sisters of Battle as well which would be nifty.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Don't forget spiky marines. I bet they would kill for something with PotMS


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## Imperators Warden (Nov 15, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> Ah I hadn't quite taken that from his statement. As long as they're making it clear that it's a local ruling then it's fine, go wild. Presumably 'All Power Armoured Forces' means Sisters of Battle as well which would be nifty.


Yes, it was a local ruling. They said that within that store your deploying Storm Ravens within PAA is perfectly solvent.... whoops I meant k:
Though, as some have stated already. I will not be surprised if this is a probe attack in this region. Most likely more and more stores will move to doing these types of things.


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

One of my friends who is new to the hobby asked at Games workshop and was told that she would be able to field it even though she wasn't using blood angels. Incidentally she is playing as a vanilla list painted as the legion of the damned and has planned an awesome SR conversion using a skeletal dragon from another range. As soon as she said tit i mentioned that they are meant to be only for BA and aren;t in her SM codex. The WD article does not specifically say that other chapters can use it. 
As such she was somewhat annoyed but when i pointed out that she could still use them as allys in apocalypse games she was fine with it. She was pissed that GW had lied to her about her being able to use it all the time but she liked the idea of having a big transport in larger games as a centrepiece.


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## Imperators Warden (Nov 15, 2010)

GrimzagGorwazza said:


> One of my friends who is new to the hobby asked at Games workshop and was told that she would be able to field it even though she wasn't using blood angels. Incidentally she is playing as a vanilla list painted as the legion of the damned and has planned an awesome SR conversion using a skeletal dragon from another range. As soon as she said tit i mentioned that they are meant to be only for BA and aren;t in her SM codex. The WD article does not specifically say that other chapters can use it.
> As such she was somewhat annoyed but when i pointed out that she could still use them as allys in apocalypse games she was fine with it. She was pissed that GW had lied to her about her being able to use it all the time but she liked the idea of having a big transport in larger games as a centrepiece.


While it may not say that any chapter may use it. The entry in WD, and economic reasons have made it "legal". At least in some stores, but I am sure this will proliferate. For instance, in the store which I frequent any powered army may take it; sans permission. By the way, this is an official GW store. Now your friend may want to verify if at that store she can use her SR. Though you may choose to not play against it. As is your right, for the lack of codex entry.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Rules are, at the end of the day, guidelines. Games like Warhammer evolved from things like D&D, and rules in roleplaying games have always been very mutable. The Warhammer rulebook is only concrete for tournaments, I think-- if you all agree that you want to do something differently than what's written in the book, then go for it. 

Anyway, the stormraven is one of those models that I think everyone can agree is just fair game for anyone who paid the $70 for it. It's not a Forge World model, the rules are readily available... it seems like most people are fine with it, and frankly, there's no reason not to be.


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## Luisjoey (Dec 3, 2010)

Vanilla SM should get it

Space Wolves... never!

my sincere opinion.


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## Fallen DA (Aug 25, 2008)

Stephen_Newman said:


> Actually there is a difference between the examples you just listed and the stormraven is that there is a justification for the stormraven to turn up in other armies.
> 
> For starters Thunderwolf cav are only ever native to Fenris. I doubt the wolves would be willing to share them nor do I think they would appreciate every known marine chapter to be rooting around their home planet.
> 
> ...


I agree, and like the idea of being able to field a Stormraven in my SM Army. though if DA get the ablilty to Teleport Dreadnoughts then I'll hold off purely for Fluff reasons. I think the appeal of the SR in general is the flexability its give SM Players. and though GW are just trying to make BA stand apart. Feel they do enough already without restricting the SR to BA's and GK's. I'd have no problem playing a non BA SM Army with SR simply because tactically SR make good sense in ANY SM Army. I'd even argue that if they can carry a dreadnought then they can also carry a Thunderfire cannon. NO I'd would'nt try and do that during a game :grin:


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## Bonegrinder (Mar 15, 2011)

This is why they should make one big codex to cover multiple chapters.


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## Shadowbadger (Jan 2, 2011)

Dagmire said:


> This is complete BS. If you tried to run it in anything other then a BA or GK list i would not play you.
> Do you feel its ok to take Thunder wolf cav? Maybe my guard could take a land raider.
> If its not in your codex then your not playing me. simple, If my local (not been in a while) tried to pull this I would leave.
> It just a way of GW trying to sell the fucking thing.
> ...


If he can play it in the store then why not. Its only a game . . . . .. pause to hear the gasps . . . . . 

At what point in your podcast do you talk about it? I listened to four minutes of you saying nothing at all before i realised it was 3 hours long and gave up.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Bonegrinder said:


> This is why they should make one big codex to cover multiple chapters.


or maybe make a rule in the rulebook stating that the rules aren't really that important, perhaps to imply that you and your opponent can do and agree to anything you both like, god damn if only the rulebook had something like this in it............


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## Malferion (Mar 9, 2011)

> Vanilla SM should get it
> 
> Space Wolves... never!
> 
> ...


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