# Versus The Carnifex



## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

*Versus: Week Three​*
Probably one of the scariest, most versatile units in a list known for being scary and versatile, the Carnifex is a staple of the dreaded "Nidzilla" list.

Unfortunately, I haven't got a lot of experience with or against tyranids, so I'll leave it to our more experienced posters to say what the scariest combination of abilities is for these things, as well as how to deal with them.

My only advice comes from the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, p67 "Remember -- SHOOT THE BIG ONES!" I think that applies here. But I'm sure you guys can come up with something more specific.


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## FarseerNo3 (Mar 7, 2008)

i think a force weapon fro ma librarian would be a good idea if he has a retinue and some boosts


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## Morgal (Sep 26, 2007)

Well i'm sure tactics depend on what tyranid is taken. a sniper fex, a wing fex ext.

Also for upgrades there is one that increases there toughness, so if that upgrade is taken some weapons will no longer work as well.

---------------------------------
In addition to the guards uplifting primer, "shoot the big guns at the big bugs"

often what works for anti tank will deney the fex it's saves and thus wound it. 
Ordanace usually works as they are often not alone so scattering is okay as you still hit something.
my favorite is snipers, no matter how tough you are, i wound on a 4+. a round of sniper shots can take a few wounds off enabaling other units to finish it off.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Snipers are always a good thing against MCs.

But you bring up a good point. Should we figure out what everyone thinks is the scariest setup is for a fex and then decide how to beat that one, or should we just post as many ideas as we can about as many different types of carnifexes we can think of?


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## Absolute035 (Jan 13, 2008)

As an Eldar player, my plan for monstrous creatures would revolve around snipers (pathfinders) and rending (harlequins). 

Generally they can soak a lot of firepower if you're trying to shoot them, but lascannons or missile launchers will eventually do the trick. Just it's accomplished faster in close combat, assuming its not a melee-fex. Ranged Fexs only get a few attacks at low WS, so they can only knock out a couple marines before you put the wounds on with powerfists.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Heavy support Carnifexes (the most common type) typically have a toughness of 7 and a 2+ armor save. Elite carnifexes have a toughness of 6 and a 3+ armor save. Both varieties usually have 4 wounds (the nid player can buy another wound and the ability to regenerate wounds, but this isn't usually worth it). So weapons that deal with carnifexes well are ones that can deal with their high toughness and great armor reliably. Melee carnifexes are somewhat rare as they're usually very inefficient (an assault unit that has a 6" move only and has a big target painted on it). If they're taken as elites you're more likely to see meleefexes due to point constraints but then they've only got a 3+ save and can reliably be killed with high volume str 6 or 7 fire while the heavier weaponry is trained on the heavy support carnifexes. Heavy support carnifexes usually come in one of two basic setups: sniperfex and dakkafex with sniperfex being the most common. Sniperfexes have a BS of 3, a venom cannon (str 10 ap 4 assault 2 36" cannot get a penetrating hit on vehicles unless open topped), and a barbed strangler (str 8, ap 5, assault 1 large blast 36"). This variant is for tank hunting and is fairly good at its role, though somewhat unreliable with its bs of 3. The dakkafex is an infantry hunter. It wields 2 twin-linked devourers giving it 8 str 6 ap - shots at 18" approximately 6 of which will hit and since it uses the living ammo special rule it gets to reroll to wound all 6 of those str 6 hits.

Anti-tank fire with ap 2 or 1, rending, and pathfinders are great for taking them down at a range, though it will take them a bit. Carnifexes can only ever move 6" so they'll have plenty of time to work on it. The most efficient way to take down any carnifex is to kill it with a powerfist in a big squad (preferably something cheap like ork boyz). Carnifex kills some expendable models, then the powerfist reams the Carnifex. May take a few rounds but it's worth it. Tyranid players do not like to send their fexes into melee with powerfists.

Force weapons are a gamble since they need a 6+ to wound. A typical character with one is going to have about 5 attacks and will have a 56% chance of inflicting a wound and will almost certainly die to the carnifex's attacks back. A chaos lord with a blissgiver (instant death from any wound) who rolls well has a slightly better shot at killing the beast, as does a chaos lord with the nurgle daemon weapon for the same reason that a DE character with an agonizer has a good shot (always 4+ to wound power attacks). Again, they need to worry about getting all 4 wounds in one go or risk instant death from counter assault (less of a problem for the DE with shadowfield). So, special characters have some interesting options but all have problems with getting instant deathed in return.

There are special characters that have a better shot, but taking a special character to counter a specific foe is kind of cheesy.

The really scary tyranid MC IMO is the hive tyrant. A winged hive tyrant with 2 twil-linked devourers and the right upgrades is spitting out 12 str 5 ap - shots at bs 4 that gets to reroll hits and wounds. It can move 12" and fire 18", is still a very capable melee combatant (and can kill tanks in melee), and has a 2+ save with 4 wounds. It's even very affordable at 196 points. You can also kit out a hive tyrant for CC but they still run into problems with powerfists.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Thank you, Culler! That was fantastic both in the explanation of the different types and in how to deal with them. Very good stuff.

I regret to say that nids are one of the weak points in my knowledge base, so it's good to know that there's someone who knows what they're talking about involved ;-)


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## psychomidget99 (Feb 10, 2008)

My brother's Dark Eldar Archon with Agonisers, Combat Drugs and Shadowfield, Plasma Grenades, a few other bits and bobs is infamous for slaying the most impossibly powerful units in a turn or two.

Agonisers and Power Fists/Powa Klawz are the best when you're more intimate with a Carnifex. At longer range, I wouldn't rely on snipers- they still don't ignore armour saves, and a 2+ save isn't particularly easy to fail.

Save Lascannon shots and Plasma Cannon shots for Carnifexes, don't try to eventually mow them down with Bolters or *shudder* Lasguns. Save THAT for infantry, where it' the most effective. Ordanance shots aren't a good idea- they're also best for infantry and vehicles, and can only deal one turn per shot. 

Hope this helps. Cheers,

psychomidget99


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## Triumph Of Man (Dec 27, 2007)

> My only advice comes from the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, p67 "Remember -- SHOOT THE BIG ONES!" I think that applies here. But I'm sure you guys can come up with something more specific.


It's actually more important to shoot the fast ones, not the big ones. IG can trade shot for shot with most armies, fast critters getting into CC is much more of a problem.


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## Hivemind Demeter (Nov 6, 2007)

As a Nid player, I'll tell you what kills Carnifex'.
Lascannons and Rocket launchers.
My Fex can run down the center of the field with his gribblies but he will be shot at. The real question is can you really just aim at him and ignore the little guys massed around him?
Lascannon fire and maybe a few Rocket Launchers will make short work of the big guys, unfortunately for me.

As said above, the thing you SHOULD be worried about is the Tyrant.
The Fex is scary but is usually taken out immediately in games I play, the Tyrant is big, scary, and is synapse. Add wings on that and you've got a problem.


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## Estragon (Feb 25, 2008)

I'm planning on killing a carnifex with a blissgiver at some point in the near future: Automatic ID from any wound suffered. But for the moment I'm sticking with a plaguebringer which always wounds on a 4+. God I love Daemon Weapons (until I roll a 1....) Assault cannon fire must be something of a winner, along with running a dread into it, if you don't mind a gamble.


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## killer13 (Mar 7, 2008)

i find that power fists and models that rend are good at killing them.


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## Estragon (Feb 25, 2008)

Not really sure about armies other than chaos, but for something like Eldar, would it be possible to Psyker them to death?-presuming your opponent didn't bring Shadow in the Warp. Oh, and a Terminus would probably do the trick as well, but if we're going apocalyptic I'd just have a Titan stamp on it! But that's just wishful thinking. The combination of high toughness and 2+ saves is a bugger....Poisoned power weapons? ID that doesn't rely on toughness? What does GW have to offer in those respects?


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## wetware (Dec 8, 2007)

Shadow in the Warp really won't matter since the Eldar player will almost always bring his runes. All shadow in the warp will effectively do is remove Perils of the Warp, which hurts more than it helps, since it doesn't give any actual advantage to the 'nid player in terms of his own psychic powers. That being said, the dreadnaught idea is a good one, except for the fact that the dread is all kinds of slow. Even a dakkafex will likely open him up like a can of vienna sausages due to the simple volume of S6 shots. If you do get to combat with him, make sure he's on his last legs, otherwise the dread is a goner.


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## GhostBear (Feb 17, 2008)

Interesting advice and analysis so far. I haven't faced a Chaos player yet, and I'm not familiar with these Daemon weapons mentioned. Do they cause instant death? or is it an effect similar to a Force Weapon?

As for dealing with Carnifexes. I find that eliminating their support is a far more productive use of my time then dealing with them first. Pretty much everything else in the Tyranid Codex is faster and/or weaker then the Carnifex.

Taking them down, whether they are shooty or melee, is the same for me. I treat them like vehicles. Carnifexes are the closest thing Tyranid players have to vehicles. So weapons you would use against vehicles work against them. At least shooting weapons. Since they aren't actually vehicles, things like Melta Bombs and Tank Bustas won't do anything. 

For close combat options, using power weapons against Carnifexes is a good option. Also, consider a clash of the titans. Monstrous Creatures can be surprisingly good at taking other MCs down. This may not seem like the best option, but sometimes it's the better option. Since Carnifexes have low initiative they generally strike last, even if it's upgraded. Powerfists and equivalents are good options because they upgrade your strength in addition to preventing armor saves. Generally if you want to use that option you'll need a retinue or a really good invulnerable save or both. Carnifexes can have 9-10 Strength and that's instant death area for a lot of your multi wound characters.

Close combat Carnifexes are easier to avoid, making them an easier to deal with unit then a shooting Carnifex.

Shooting Carnifexes can be as troublesome if not moreso then a vehicle. Sure the Tyranid weapon selection isn't as dire as some of the vehicles out there, but when they start dropping high strength Large Blast Templates on your troops you tend to take notice. Or rapidly firing twin-linked living ammunition guns into your lines.

If you have the troops, tie up a shooty Carnifex with a melee troop. Not only will you keep it from shooting up your lines you might even take it down with some luck. If you can, shoot a melee Carnifex or even better, stay away from it and trivialize it's contribution to the battle.

A weakness of the Carnifex is it's lack of invulnerable saves. If you can take advantage of that, go for it, if not and you really need to kill it, shoot it full of as many holes as you can. Just keep in mind, despite it's size and imposing numbers, it's not the whole army, in fact in some cases it's probably a better idea to take out the Synapse Creature support before even considering the Carnifex.

As for the idea of using Psyker powers against Carnifexes, my experience here is limited to Eldar, they are the only army with which I'm familiar with their powers. In their case, using Doom would probably really help. Mind War almost seems good except for the Carnifex's high leadership.

Good luck out there and happy hunting.


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## Ubiquitous (Feb 17, 2008)

Well, you could always just punch them in the eye and kill them like my crisis suits always seem to do. You know you're an ork player when you're winning close combat with tau :victory:

More seriously, anything we've had on versus before would kill them very well. Death company has rending, which will tear them apart. Broadsides have railguns, which kill a carnifex every other turn. Harlequins and ork boyz would work well too.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

psychomidget99 said:


> At longer range, I wouldn't rely on snipers- they still don't ignore armour saves, and a 2+ save isn't particularly easy to fail.


The idea behind using pathfinders is that they get a random # of ap 1 shots which wound on a 4+ like the rest of the squad's shots. A 120 point unit is on average only going to get 1 ap 1 shot to wound the carnifex each turn, but they've got a while to work.


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## Nightbringer416 (Feb 16, 2008)

Triumph Of Man said:


> It's actually more important to shoot the fast ones, not the big ones. IG can trade shot for shot with most armies, fast critters getting into CC is much more of a problem.


i completely agree with you on this. I play necrons and I just shoot the never ending swarm of gaunst/genestealers/warriros or whatever the're throwing at me. since the carnifex is so slow i can avoid it from CC. hold cover for the majority of the game and if you have enough fast targets down i would then shoot the big ones.:good:


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## Deceiver (Sep 19, 2007)

The real problem is when they have a nidzilla 6 of them. 3 are pumped up big time with armour 2 toughness 7. The high flying tyrant tends to get most of your attn turn 1. It's those distractions that bide the hvy fex's time to get to you. You'll need plenty of the above mentioned tactics.

You really need a list tailored to it. Otherwise you are in a bit of trouble. SM assault cannon armies with some termies are a nice well rounded army.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Carnifexes are only truly dangerous when taken in large numbers. An army can generally ignore them otherwise. When it comes to those Carnifexes that are equipped entirely for close combat, the best way to deal with them is to... run away! They move 6" a turn. So does almost everything else in the game. Thus, you can easily avoid them.


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## maxtangent (Jan 31, 2008)

The problem with Instant Death is that if a 'Fex is in synapse range, it is immune. If you can take care of synapse creatures first, then Blissgiver will be brutally effective. 

Giving Shadow of the Warp to a Tyrant actually helps the Eldar - they roll three dice, ignore the highest, ignore the lowest. Eldar will pass every psychic test they take with no chance of Perils of the Warp.

Powerfists are really good against 'Fexes, but be careful. For 6 pts. a 'Fex can have its initiative upgraded to 2 (Adrenal Glands I) and strike before them.

It may seem obvious, but I'll say it anyway. When you are busy running away from that CC GodFex, don't get distracted so much that you wind up getting herded into those 'stealers or Hormagaunts fleeting towards your lines.

It has been mentioned, but it bears repeating: AP2 weapons are your best friends when facing 'Fexes specifiically and Tyranid MCs in general (not to mention Zoanthropes). When I play 'Nids, I target those weapons first.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Indeed, the blissgiver probably won't work here...but your garden variety Force weapon will.

With BA I'd be tempted to harass them with meltabikes and VAS armed with fists and meltaguns...but against a tyrant that can shoot back, thee short range and direct tactics (usually performed with small, fragile units) will be much harder


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Galahad said:


> With BA I'd be tempted to harass them with meltabikes and VAS armed with fists and meltaguns...but against a tyrant that can shoot back, thee short range and direct tactics (usually performed with small, fragile units) will be much harder


The Death Company is by far our best unit for anti-Fex duty. 8 Death Company will land around 5 Rending hits on the charge, nevermind any rerolls they may get from being accompanied by a Chaplain. The biggest problem is getting past the little ones that will no doubt seek to intercept the DC before it can get to grips with the MCs.


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## Estragon (Feb 25, 2008)

Ahaha! Got you there Galahad and Max! The Blissgiver causes ID regardless of the targets toughness and the synapse rules state 'Immune to ID from weapons with a strength double their toughness' or something like it ('Nid player to confirm?)
I believe the same wording is used for the Adamantine Mantle, hoho.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Estragon said:


> The Blissgiver causes ID regardless of the targets toughness and the synapse rules state 'Immune to ID from weapons with a strength double their toughness' or something like it


This man speaks the truth. Synapse prevents instant death only from weapons that have double the str of the bug's toughness. Seeing as how carnifexes have a toughness of 6 minimum, they really don't benefit from synapse except not having to make Ld checks to be able to move.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Ha, got me there. I bow to superior nid knowledge

Gotta love clumsily worded rules ;-) So yeah, blissgiver for the win...assuming you can make that 6+ wound roll


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## Archangel41 (Mar 9, 2008)

My tactic used to be force weapons, now its lascannons and multimeltas.


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## maxtangent (Jan 31, 2008)

In the Tryanids FAQ it states:
Q. If a Tyranid creature in synapse range is wounded by a weapon with a Strength of more than double their toughness, do they suffer Instant Death, or only one wound?

A. They suffer only one wound. THE BOOK IS WRONG, [emphasis mine] and the second bullet point of the Synapse Creatures rules should read:

* "Tyranids within Synapse range (including the Synapse Creature itself) as described above are not affected by the Instant Death rule. Note that this does not apply to Ripper Swarms."*

"Ahaha" was premature and is now canceled .


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## Changer of Ways (Jan 3, 2008)

killer13 said:


> i find that power fists and models that rend are good at killing them.


Yup. The easiest and simplest way to deal with a carnie is to hit it with a squad that conceals a nasty H2H weapon (e.g. power fist, power claw, agonizer, etc...), read the old "hidden power fist tactic".
Most of the carnies I fight are geared up for ranged combat with either a venom cannon and barbed strangler or two twin-linked devourers anyway, subtracting from their H2H killing potential.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

maxtangent said:


> In the Tryanids FAQ it states:
> Q. If a Tyranid creature in synapse range is wounded by a weapon with a Strength of more than double their toughness, do they suffer Instant Death, or only one wound?
> 
> A. They suffer only one wound. THE BOOK IS WRONG, [emphasis mine] and the second bullet point of the Synapse Creatures rules should read:
> ...




So we were right, Blissgiver wouldn't do the trick


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

Grand master + Nemesis force weapon = dead carnifex


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Well, yeah...there's very few things a GK GM can't demolish in CC...

Next to Mephiston and Abaddon, there's not much nastier


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## asianavatar (Aug 20, 2007)

Exorcist tanks seem like a good way to wipe a decent amount of wounds off a fex in one turn.


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## Siege (Jan 18, 2008)

Well, I come up against 'Nids regularly, and I find Carnifex tend to go down hard if you hit them with railguns.


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## Imperial Dragon (Dec 22, 2007)

SM - just fill out your heavy support with lascannons and missle's and combat squads.
get some GK termies in with your army.

CSM - nurgle will do good, if you can get berzerkers fighting it a champ charing with a power fist that should help kill it, plus all the other attacks, chosen with MoK and a bunch of power weapons/fists.

Tau - as said railguns (i hate them)

Eldar - i know the bright lance and dark reapers are good oh and also fire dragons and harlie's.

Dark eldar - a DE lord.

Orks - well power claws and Lootas maybe.

imp guard - tanks.

this is from personal experince and what people have said here already or other times.


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## Sniper (Mar 9, 2008)

I tried this combo once at Cancon and it took down a hive tyrant and a carnifexe in one game:
Inquisitor Lord with holocaust, force weapon, storm shield and t-armour + cc warrior henchmen and a familiar= one dead nid.

Sniper


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## Casmiricus (Mar 6, 2008)

For Guard: If you're doing an Apocalypse sized battle and your opponent is okay with you using the belloflostsouls apocalypse sheets, launch a Deathstrike Missle at him.

No fuss, no rolling to wound, just sucked screaming into the warp. :grin:


For normal battles, I rely on my plasma guns and missle launchers to put nidzillas down. Hell, I once had a guardsman go toe-to-balls with an already wounded 'fex and take him down.


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## TH3F4LL3NT3MPL4R (Jan 6, 2008)

In the few games i have played against the nids I threw my lord and his posy of 20 bezerkers at a fex and brought it down fairly nicely...then again 107 WS5 S5 attacks will do that


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Yeah, if you have enough really nasty assaulters, just the sheer weight of numbers might pull down a fex. I think even a small DC could tear down a fex if they got the charge. A full strength death company could wreak holy havoc...assuming they don;t get tied up kicking gaunts around ;-)

Orks, I suppose you could get Old Zogwort to turn it into a squig ;-)


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## Syko515 (Jan 22, 2008)

back when i played BA i tore down a T7 fex and a winged CC tyrant in the same assault. with both assaults side by side and dante in the middle. the tyrant faced assault squads and veteran assault squads with power fists, the fext caught the chaplian and Death Company of 5.....there was no collatiral damage at all....


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