# Storm Raven rules & stats



## Jace of Ultramar

Hello,

I'm a Crimson Fists player and I want to add a Storm Raven or two to my army at a later point and time for casual play. I know Blood Angels and Grey Knights have them in each of their 'dex but do they have the same stats and features? If they're different then how so?


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## Sakura_ninja

Grey knight ones have themed missiles and upgrades, blood angel ones are more generic so to speak, just with blood angel theme names of the missiles if I remember

So if you added one to basic marines you use the BA one, just name the missiles something generic.

Though legally you can't have one anyway, and as such your probably gonna catch flak round here from attitudes I have observed


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## Jace of Ultramar

I could care less about attitudes. This is for fun games with friends and I just don't have the resource expenditure for a Storm Eagle at its price plus shipping when I can get 2 Ravens at my LGS without shipping and a month long wait.


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## Sakura_ninja

If your groups find then just call the missiles genetic boom boom pipes and play on, the only problem you'll have then is the hideous model haha


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## Jacobite

Why not just use the rules for the Storm Eagle then? Weapons load outs are similar. Just put a set of missile launchers on the top turret of the Storm Raven. Done. If you really wanted to you could extend the hull a bit to make it more believable to carry 20 troops but if its just a friendly game nobodies going to care.


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## Jace of Ultramar

Honestly, I think it looks awesome. I'm not into sleek, fast, and streamline. I prefer things like the Storm Raven that are a bit boxy, blunt, and to the point.


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## Jace of Ultramar

Jacobite said:


> Why not just use the rules for the Storm Eagle then? Weapons load outs are similar. Just put a set of missile launchers on the top turret of the Storm Raven. Done. If you really wanted to you could extend the hull a bit to make it more believable to carry 20 troops but if its just a friendly game nobodies going to care.


Hmm..... that's an intriguing idea.


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## Magpie_Oz

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Hmm..... that's an intriguing idea.


+1 That is what I'd be doing if anyone was getting upset, but honesty I like to see other stuff being used in standard lists, spices things up a bit I reckon


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## CPT Killjoy

I'm sure you'll be fine using it as long as it's not in competitions. Most people are out to hae fun anyway, and it's my understanding that GW is really considering realeasing rules for it for all SM's (rumor, but it makes sense from a strickly business pespctive if you think about it). I've seen a Space Wolves player with one painted up before, and it was pretty awesome. If any one really gives you hell about it, tell them they suck and play with someone else (just my opinion).


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## Da Joka

Use the Blood Angels for sure, I know the GK one can have stuff like Pysbolt ammo and some other things that only GKs can have.

Also you should call one of the one shot missiles The Thermal Fist... or something else to do with fists


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## Jace of Ultramar

Magpie_Oz said:


> +1 That is what I'd be doing if anyone was getting upset, but honesty I like to see other stuff being used in standard lists, spices things up a bit I reckon


To which other stuff are you referring to? The Raven or The Eagle?




CPT Killjoy said:


> I'm sure you'll be fine using it as long as it's not in competitions. Most people are out to hae fun anyway, and it's my understanding that GW is really considering realeasing rules for it for all SM's (rumor, but it makes sense from a strickly business pespctive if you think about it). I've seen a Space Wolves player with one painted up before, and it was pretty awesome. If any one really gives you hell about it, tell them they suck and play with someone else (just my opinion).


Fortunately most people I play are there for the fun aspect or the 'I'm experimenting with a new idea' mind set. Most players in my area are former Magic the Gathering players who have adopted the 've nice or go home' mentality... mostly because they had enough with the usual poor player holier than thou Magic mentality.




Da Joka said:


> Use the Blood Angels for sure, I know the GK one can have stuff like Pysbolt ammo and some other things that only GKs can have.
> 
> Also you should call one of the one shot missiles The Thermal Fist... or something else to do with fists


I'm inspired to call any one shot missile for my bird The Brass Knuckle. Oh yeah.


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## Magpie_Oz

I mean any stuff, Captured Tau tanks, reprogrammed Necron, tamed orcs whatever !


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## Jace of Ultramar

Ah, gotcha


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## Da Joka

Jace of Ultramar said:


> I'm inspired to call any one shot missile for my bird The Brass Knuckle. Oh yeah.


YES! Dooit! (I knew someone would come up with something better lol)


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## Jace of Ultramar

Da Joka said:


> YES! Dooit! (I knew someone would come up with something better lol)


Oh, I'm GONNA!!!!!!!!!!


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## Arcane

How about just use the BA dex and use your army for Counts As? Then your lists would be even tourney legal. As far as I know (I don't play marines so...) vanilla marines don't get anything that BA don't so using the BA dex hould not limit what you can list, only increase the possibilities.


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## Jace of Ultramar

That's a possibility, but, I really don't want to have to buy a 'dex to use one model. I can probably get the odds and ends of the details for gaming without much hassle.


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## Archon Dan

The Blood Angel's Storm Raven is actually a little cheaper than the Grey Knights'. But their one shot missiles are terrible unless fighting an army with lots of psykers. But the Bloodstrike missiles are just AP 1 Krak Missiles with a long range. Might be the same as the Hellstrike Missiles on the Storm Eagle.


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## Arcane

Well I will say the BA get a lot of advantages over vanilla marines like omgwtf deepstriking Landraiders and omgwtf death company.


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## Archon Dan

Arcane said:


> Well I will say the BA get a lot of advantages over vanilla marines like omgwtf deepstriking Landraiders and omgwtf death company.


Have you tried to deepstrike a LandRaider? If it arrives late game there is a really high risk of mishapping with something so big. It isn't really a good strategy. But you forgot the best advantage BA get. Dreadnoughts with Blood Talons!


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## pantat

And fast vehicles.


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## MidnightSun

And an extra 15 points payed on all of your Rhino chassis whether you want to or not! Oh, and the useless Captains, the more-expensive-for-no-reason Assault Terminators, and lack of Null Zone.

BA aren't plain better than Marines.

On topic, I'd be fine with you using a Stormraven in a friendly game using normal Marines.

Midnight


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## pantat

Well I for one am happy to pay that because Fast vehicles are much better than normal ones imo. 15 points for ability to move 6" and still fire all 3 Lascannons on a predator is nice

I didn't say they are plain better, but they fit my playstyle a lot better than normal marines used to. 

And yes, my local GW manager says he's perfectly fine with anyone using the Stormraven (As marines obviously) in games as long as the opponent is too.


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## MidnightSun

Fast is great on Predators, and the other Marines weep when they see that BA get Fast Vindicators, but sometimes you just want to put chassis on the field, for which Codex: SM is better because they get a significant discount on their vehicles - Rhinos in particular are good, because you move onto an objective and sit there with your free Multi-Melta poking out of the top hatch.

But to each their own, some people like zooming their Rhino chassis 18" around the board (I will concede that it is a lot of fun).

Midnight


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## TheKingElessar

Death Company are also crap, fyi.

The Stormraven's rules were published in their entirety in a White Dwarf, I *think* last February's expressly for such an occurrence as people using them for other Chapters in casual play. Be a bit cheaper than a Codex, and has a handy reference sheet-nature. Of course, illegally downloading a copy of the rules is even cheaper...Or photocopying a friend's copy, or whatever - there are a number of ways you can get your hands on the rules.

Naturally, the ones in the WD were indeed the same as for BA, not GK.


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## Jace of Ultramar

Well, I've got the stats at this juncture. A quick web search gave me the results I was seeking. Surprisingly, I had a friend send me a quick text that since he had water damage happen to his BA 'dex I could have the Storm Raven pages.


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## Tawa

Da Joka said:


> The Thermal Fist...


Giggety! :laugh:
Sorry guys, couldn't help myself there!


Anyways, regarding the Stormraven, I fully intend to have a pair of them for my marines. And they are about as un-BA as you can get.


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## Archon Dan

TheKingElessar said:


> Death Company are also crap, fyi.
> 
> The Stormraven's rules were published in their entirety in a White Dwarf, I *think* last February's expressly for such an occurrence as people using them for other Chapters in casual play. Be a bit cheaper than a Codex, and has a handy reference sheet-nature. Of course, illegally downloading a copy of the rules is even cheaper...Or photocopying a friend's copy, or whatever - there are a number of ways you can get your hands on the rules.
> 
> Naturally, the ones in the WD were indeed the same as for BA, not GK.


Do you recall what FOC slot that White Dwarf made the Stormraven for regular Marines? It is a Heavy Support for Blood Angels but for regular Marines that competes with Land Raiders. I'd imagine it fits better in the Marine Fast Attack slots, like the Grey Knight version given the slower nature of the rest of the armies. Either would work but players should be aware of what choice is being limited.


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## TheKingElessar

I'm afraid I don't remember for sure, but I *think* it was Heavy Support, as for BA.


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## Sakura_ninja

TheKingElessar said:


> Death Company are also crap, fyi.


There fine, its the only BA army I'd like to do, its fun.


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## Jace of Ultramar

I believe the Raven is Heavy Support. Works fine for me as heavy. Can it transport Terminators?


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## MidnightSun

Sakura_ninja said:


> There fine, its the only BA army I'd like to do, its fun.


Fun, yes. Good, no. If you like running after empty Rhinos and single Gun Drones and the inability to win objective missions, then go ahead.

Midnight


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## Sakura_ninja

MidnightSun said:


> Fun, yes. Good, no. If you like running after empty Rhinos and single Gun Drones and the inability to win objective missions, then go ahead.
> 
> Midnight


Don't care, its a game.


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## MidnightSun

I don't want to derail another thread, so I'll comment no further.

I too think that the Stormraven is Heavy Support.

Midnight


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## Jace of Ultramar

MidnightSun said:


> I don't want to derail another thread, so I'll comment no further.


Ha!


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## TheKingElessar

Jace of Ultramar said:


> I believe the Raven is Heavy Support. Works fine for me as heavy. Can it transport Terminators?


Yes, they count as two models each.


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## Jace of Ultramar

TheKingElessar said:


> Yes, they count as two models each.


Sweet, I have the pages now and the entry doesn't say they can but, it doesn't say they can't.


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## MidnightSun

If it doesn't make an exception for them, they can do it.

Midnight


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## Arcane

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Sweet, I have the pages now and the entry doesn't say they can but, it doesn't say they can't.


Think landraider and you're set.


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## TheKingElessar

MidnightSun said:


> If it doesn't make an exception for them, they can do it.
> 
> Midnight


Exactly, Terminator Armour tells you that they can't get in Rhinos or Razorbacks, they are the only Transports in the game with this stipulation.

In Apocalypse, for instance, there is nothing to stop you embarking Terminators in Falcons, Venoms, Devilfish, whatever.


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## SGMAlice

If your referring to last Feb's WD then The Stormraven's rules and points cost are included but not for other Marine Chapters, it was for a first look at it for the BA army.

Alice


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## TheKingElessar

SGMAlice said:


> If your referring to last Feb's WD then The Stormraven's rules and points cost are included but not for other Marine Chapters, it was for a first look at it for the BA army.
> 
> Alice


Yeah, but most people took that as some sort of tacit approval that it could then be used by any Spess Mehreens.


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## SGMAlice

Wild speculation and base assumption.

Everything in that 40k section was aimed at the Blood Angels, it had an example list as well as information and Fluff excerpts.

Alice


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## TheKingElessar

No argument from me, again. Sadly, try telling that to the world at large...


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## Archon Dan

TheKingElessar said:


> Exactly, Terminator Armour tells you that they can't get in Rhinos or Razorbacks, they are the only Transports in the game with this stipulation.
> 
> In Apocalypse, for instance, there is nothing to stop you embarking Terminators in Falcons, Venoms, Devilfish, whatever.


Just got to remember that they take up 2 spots. The interesting aspect of this, is that a Night Scythe says it can carry 5 bike models. The possbilities in Apocolypse are certainly intrigueing. Deep strike the Scythe and dump out some Space Marine bikes with melta to shoot is one possibility.



Sakura_ninja said:


> There fine, its the only BA army I'd like to do, its fun.


I like my Death Company. They just aren't the only Troop I field when I use them and they get transport priority to get them to a proper target. After they make at least one kill depending on the army they have free range and are typically too close to other critical units to be kited away.



SGMAlice said:


> Wild speculation and base assumption.
> 
> Everything in that 40k section was aimed at the Blood Angels, it had an example list as well as information and Fluff excerpts.
> 
> Alice


Not trying to argue but in a friendly game and with opponent's permission you can field different units. I bought a Forge World Tomb Stalker fully aware that half my usual opponents won't let me use it. It may just be that once the rules are released in an IA book that the OP can use them as Storm Eagles instead, something that will require permission anyway.


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## Jace of Ultramar

Well, being I'm the OP, I'm very much into SciFi and military and when the two meet its just like Christmas morning. When I picked up 40K and chose the Marines to play it was for the reasons of preferring the overall look and feel for the SM factions. Then, I discovered the Raven, Hawk, and now the Eagle. There was a sense of "Well, what have we here and why is it not in my 'dex?" which leads me to the understanding of 2 things;

1. You don't have to follow the letter of your 'dex and

2. If I want to build it, slap a red fist on it, and throw it on the field with a willing opponent then I can. 

Nowhere near as rigidly structured as other games I've played for the casual side of things.


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## Arcane

Yeah Jace it's just a game, you can do what you want. My buddy and I often make up games and just use the rules as guidelines. Last week I played with a half SoB half GK list. 

Just keep in mind though that many people are also competitive players, in tournaments etc and stick to the rules. Also if you show up to your FLGS and play random acquaintances, they may not appreciate stretching the rules because if they are sore after losing to a modified army list then they may grumble about shenanigans. My rule of thumb is, whenever playing with my close friends, experimentation is fine, but when playing against strangers/acquaintances, stick to the rules.


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## Jace of Ultramar

Arcane said:


> Yeah Jace it's just a game, you can do what you want. My buddy and I often make up games and just use the rules as guidelines. Last week I played with a half SoB half GK list.
> 
> Just keep in mind though that many people are also competitive players, in tournaments etc and stick to the rules. Also if you show up to your FLGS and play random acquaintances, they may not appreciate stretching the rules because if they are sore after losing to a modified army list then they may grumble about shenanigans. My rule of thumb is, whenever playing with my close friends, experimentation is fine, but when playing against strangers/acquaintances, stick to the rules.


That is a guideline I follow already. My opponent and I usually arrange a game about a week to 3 days in advance and go over the permissions of that game. Convos are usually like the following;

1: Can I bring a Titan?
2: Sure.
1: Sweet.
2: I'm playing a SM list and I want to try out a Storm Raven for a heavy transporter for Dreads and Termies.
1: Is it literally a Heavy Support option?
2: Yup, flying Landraider.
1: Ok.

That's a typical convo with my opponent before our game and list building.


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## pantat

TheKingElessar said:


> Yeah, but most people took that as some sort of tacit approval that it could then be used by any Spess Mehreens.


Like the manager at my local shop does.... 

I suspect its *mainly* so that more Stormravens sell in store. Which they have.


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## SGMAlice

Archon Dan said:


> Not trying to argue but in a friendly game and with opponent's permission you can field different units. I bought a Forge World Tomb Stalker fully aware that half my usual opponents won't let me use it. It may just be that once the rules are released in an IA book that the OP can use them as Storm Eagles instead, something that will require permission anyway.


I know this, i play mostly Apocalypse and the odd irregular vanilla game that rarely follows the FoC. I did not object to its use, simply provided information.




TheKingElessar said:


> No argument from me, again. Sadly, try telling that to the world at large...


Such is the way of the world, to want what one cannot have.

Alice


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## jaysen

You can play with whatever models and rules you want. Hell, use a baneblade with twin linked volcano cannons and 10 assault cannons if you want. Just don't expect the army to be fair or balanced, according to the Warhammer 40k rules.


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## jaysen

TheKingElessar said:


> Exactly, Terminator Armour tells you that they can't get in Rhinos or Razorbacks, they are the only Transports in the game with this stipulation.
> 
> In Apocalypse, for instance, there is nothing to stop you embarking Terminators in Falcons, Venoms, Devilfish, whatever.


Or, embarking 52 terminators into each of your Imperator Titan's foot fortresses.


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## MidnightSun

jaysen said:


> You can play with whatever models and rules you want. Hell, use a baneblade with twin linked volcano cannons and 10 assault cannons if you want. Just don't expect the army to be fair or balanced, according to the Warhammer 40k rules.


This I'd like to see. I'd also like to see it's points cost :shok:

Damn this thread for making me want to add a Stormraven to my Chaos army...

Midnight


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## Jace of Ultramar

jaysen said:


> You can play with whatever models and rules you want. Hell, use a baneblade with twin linked volcano cannons and 10 assault cannons if you want. Just don't expect the army to be fair or balanced, according to the Warhammer 40k rules.


Well, I'm not going for unbalanced nor overpowered. I personally like flying vehicles and just want one or two for friendly games. I'm looking forward to the Talon's release next month and the WD that hopefully will have its stats. Since I'm pursuing the Raven under the BA 'dex and not the GK 'dex (which I've come to the understanding is way overpowered for any 'dex) I would think I'm using fair and logical steps towards having this model in an agreeable game with any casual play opponents.


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## Jace of Ultramar

MidnightSun said:


> This I'd like to see. I'd also like to see it's points cost :shok:
> 
> Damn this thread for making me want to add a Stormraven to my Chaos army...
> 
> Midnight


Do it. 


Come to the Darkside, we has cookies.


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## TheKingElessar

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Well, I'm not going for unbalanced nor overpowered. I personally like flying vehicles and just want one or two for friendly games. I'm looking forward to the Talon's release next month and the WD that hopefully will have its stats. Since I'm pursuing the Raven under the BA 'dex and not the GK 'dex (which I've come to the understanding is way overpowered for any 'dex) I would think I'm using fair and logical steps towards having this model in an agreeable game with any casual play opponents.


No, the Grey Knight one is terrible, the BA one is the only one of the two worth considering.


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## Arcane

The Stormraven isn't too great comparatively to Dreads as fire support or LR as transports. If you want to use them effectively, make sure they are not the only thing for your opponent's anti tank to shoot at. A rhino/razorback/chimera spam list could do well running two Stormravens. Otherwise expect them to get shot down turn 1 unless you go first. :/


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## Jace of Ultramar

Oh, they will not be the only anti-tank targets on the table. I plan in having a 'go to' for different point friendly games. Odd are there will be Rhinos, Razorbacks, Landraiders, and Ravens running around when I get to that juncture.


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## Arcane

TheKingElessar said:


> No, the Grey Knight one is terrible, the BA one is the only one of the two worth considering.


Not when you consider 24" scout move, libby with shrouding giving 3+ cover saves, and 1st turn assaults. It is a shame that the missiles can't be swapped out though.


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## Alsojames

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Honestly, I think it looks awesome. I'm not into sleek, fast, and streamline. I prefer things like the Storm Raven that are a bit boxy, blunt, and to the point.


 
Flying metal bawkses?


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## Jace of Ultramar

Alsojames said:


> Flying metal bawkses?


Yup, as long as it works it doesn't need to be pretty.


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## TheKingElessar

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Yup, as long as it works it doesn't need to be pretty.


That's what she said.

@Arcane - no, it's still crap. It's just that now it's half your army on board - it's a 200ish point Drop Pod.


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## Arcane

TheKingElessar said:


> That's what she said.
> 
> @Arcane - no, it's still crap. It's just that now it's half your army on board - it's a 200ish point Drop Pod.


That you can assault out of on the turn it drops in! Cmon, first turn termy assault is crap???


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## Magpie_Oz

Am I missing something? The GK and BA 'ravens seem identical to me, apart from the missiles and a bit of Psi stuff for the GK one ?

When you say drops in do you mean deep strike ?


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## TheKingElessar

Arcane said:


> That you can assault out of on the turn it drops in! Cmon, first turn termy assault is crap???


Yes. You can only do it if going first, so I reserve my army. You fly about in circles, I arrive and pimp slap your fuselage. I then either dogpile your Termies, or kite them. Preferably the latter, while I kill the rest of your army and win.

@Mags - and losing AP1 Missiles for Bullshit Missiles is a BIG step down. As is not being able to put Storm Shields inside.


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## Magpie_Oz

Perhaps if you could type in English I might understand better. But ok you lose a 1 shot AT missile and replace it with a anti infantry missile which isn't good for the AT mission but hardly makes the GK Raven "crap".

Why can't you put storm shields inside ?


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## Jace of Ultramar

TheKingElessar said:


> That's what she said.


Yup! All joking aside, the Raven has a look to it that, for me, is practical for its purpose. It transports troops and large equipment as well as a mobile weapons platform. I like it. Landraider with wings. Doesn't need to be pretty nor sleek to do its job. A vehicle can be not so pretty and yet be bad ass, case in point is the '57 Cadillac hearse, not that pretty yet its an awesome vehicle.


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## Arcane

TheKingElessar said:


> Yes. You can only do it if going first, so I reserve my army. You fly about in circles, I arrive and pimp slap your fuselage. I then either dogpile your Termies, or kite them. Preferably the latter, while I kill the rest of your army and win.
> 
> @Mags - and losing AP1 Missiles for Bullshit Missiles is a BIG step down. As is not being able to put Storm Shields inside.


First, that car above is amazing. 

You reserve your army, turn 2 if only a few things come on the board they are picked off one by one by my waiting Vindicare and Ravens, turn 3 repeat, turn 4 repeat until the end of the game when I win. k:

If the rest of the army is gun line, reserving everything is pure suicide.


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## Jace of Ultramar

Arcane said:


> First, that car above is amazing.


I know, which is why I mentioned it.


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## Archon Dan

Magpie_Oz said:


> Am I missing something? The GK and BA 'ravens seem identical to me, apart from the missiles and a bit of Psi stuff for the GK one ?
> 
> When you say drops in do you mean deep strike ?


I think one of the GK HQ choices can give the Stormraven the Scout rule. So the thought process is that you Scout move flat out to get the cover save(in case you don't go first) and then you are in assault range first turn. It is potentially nasty but not without its flaws. GKs are just too expensive for specialty builds, so you'd likely have one Storm Raven in a 1500 list with that configuration. I might be wrong though.


I like my Blood Angel version though. I'll typically strap a Librarian Dread in the back so I can cast Shield of Sanguinius for a cover save. It's a little pricey and not as good as cover from flat out but it lets me advance slowly and fire 2 weapons(typically the AT missiles) instead of just one. Once I reach a group of enemy tanks, the Librarian Dread drops out, but can still cast the Shield to protect the Storm Raven. Meanwhile, thanks to PotMS, the Storm Raven shoots it's Multi-melta and Assault Cannon/Lascannon at 2 targets, while the Librarian Dreadnought Blood Lances another vehicle. It's an efficient AT combo and whatever else was in the Storm Raven, plus other units around handle the infantry pouring out of damaged tanks.


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## Magpie_Oz

Archon Dan said:


> I think one of the GK HQ choices can give the Stormraven the Scout rule. So the thought process is that you Scout move flat out to get the cover save(in case you don't go first) and then you are in assault range first turn. It is potentially nasty but not without its flaws. GKs are just too expensive for specialty builds, so you'd likely have one Storm Raven in a 1500 list with that configuration. I might be wrong though.


Pretty much just worked out you can't do that.




Archon Dan said:


> I like my Blood Angel version though. I'll typically strap a Librarian Dread in the back so I can cast Shield of Sanguinius for a cover save. It's a little pricey and not as good as cover from flat out but it lets me advance slowly and fire 2 weapons(typically the AT missiles) instead of just one. Once I reach a group of enemy tanks, the Librarian Dread drops out, but can still cast the Shield to protect the Storm Raven. Meanwhile, thanks to PotMS, the Storm Raven shoots it's Multi-melta and Assault Cannon/Lascannon at 2 targets, while the Librarian Dreadnought Blood Lances another vehicle. It's an efficient AT combo and whatever else was in the Storm Raven, plus other units around handle the infantry pouring out of damaged tanks.


But the GK Raven can be configured in much the same way for the same effect, no AT missiles tho'


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## Archon Dan

Magpie_Oz said:


> Pretty much just worked out you can't do that.


I didn't mean putting models with the Scout rule in it to make it Scout. There is a Grey Knight HQ who can impart special rules to units in the army. I'm not sure if he can give vehicles the Scout rule but I do know he can make a Dreadknight a scoring unit. I just can't recall which one it is.



Magpie_Oz said:


> But the GK Raven can be configured in much the same way for the same effect, no AT missiles tho'


It can but the GK units cost more in general. I have no ill feelings toward the GK Storm Raven, except the missiles. I just happen to be a Blood Angel player. Plus, those Bloodstrike missiles mean I shoot the GK version out of the sky from 72" away. I guess I don't see the point of Mindstrike Missiles. Sorry.


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## Aramoro

GK's can indeed give Stormravens Scout for the first turn Scout+Assualt. And fantastically you get to flat out to within 12" and if you're going first just putter forwards 6" to your assault target and fire all your weapons as well.

The Grey Knight one is better in general as it costs 5pts more and have Fortitude.


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## Magpie_Oz

Aramoro said:


> GK's can indeed give Stormravens Scout for the first turn Scout+Assualt.


How? Grand Strategy doesn't apply to vehicles and the inheritance of Scout is only to dedicated transports


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## TheKingElessar

This is very humorous. 

*Vindicares have 36" range. Either they can't reach to pick off my 'few things' (ie, half my army...) or he gets dogged as he's both dangerous and easy to kill.
*If your Raven is within 36" of my board edge in the middle, I kill it, you shoot nothing. If it is in a corner, I avoid it. If it's far away, I ignore it.
*Stealth is great. Psychic Hoods are better.
*Firing 3 single weapons at enemy vehicles, irrespective of weapon, is not 'an efficient combo' especially when one of those requires a Psychic Test too. It's a potentially devastating combo, but far from efficient.
*If the rest of that GK army is gunline, then I'll have all the Objectives thanks. Ps, what rest? You've mentioned a GKGM, a Librarian, a Stormraven, and presumably you have a squad inside, probably a 200-odd point Purifier 'deathstar' so you've got an 800 (or more) point basket you've just put into range of all my weapons. Thanks.
*Storm Shields can't get into GK Ravens, Mags, because GK don't get the option of them. Makes Plasmaguns laugh.
*That car reminds me of 6 Feet Under. Great show.


PS - I changed your Terminators for Purifiers, cos GKT suck balls and Purifiers are actually good.


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## Magpie_Oz

TheKingElessar said:


> *Storm Shields can't get into GK Ravens, Mags, because GK don't get the option of them. Makes Plasmaguns laugh.


So the GK Raven is rooted because it can't carry a unit that the GK's don't have anyway? Well in that case the BA is total BS because it can't carry Deathmarks.

By the by I can get 12 Storm Shields into a GK Storm Raven. :wink:


----------



## Aramoro

Magpie_Oz said:


> By the by I can get 12 Storm Shields into a GK Storm Raven. :wink:


Crusaders don't count. Deathcults are a different story.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Aramoro said:


> Crusaders don't count. Deathcults are a different story.


Those straws are BLOODY hard to grab aren't they boys ?


----------



## TheKingElessar

Magpie_Oz said:


> So the GK Raven is rooted because it can't carry a unit that the GK's don't have anyway? Well in that case the BA is total BS because it can't carry Deathmarks.
> 
> By the by I can get 12 Storm Shields into a GK Storm Raven. :wink:


*sigh* Ok, T4 StormShields, with a 2+ Armour. :victory:
And no, that's just one of the two reasons it's worse than a BA one.

Note that I never said EITHER was good...


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Clutching straws is even harder while back pedalling isn't mate.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Hardly straws. Crusaders are a mediocre unit, and if you think they compare to TH/SS Terminators, then you're trolling.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Where as suggesting one of two essentially identical vehicles is crap and other isn't wouldn't be trolling now would it.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Not in the least. They are radically different vehicles, due to their options and Missiles, but more importantly due to the different FoC slot and competition, then also the things they can be used in concert with...

Next you'll be telling me that BA Tactical Squads are identical to SM ones, and that saying they're inferior is trolling...


----------



## Magpie_Oz

TheKingElessar said:


> Not in the least. They are radically different vehicles, due to their options and Missiles, but more importantly due to the different FoC slot and competition, then also the things they can be used in concert with...





TheKingElessar said:


> And no, that's just one of the two reasons it's worse than a BA one.


So which is it? You really seem to be just making it up as you go along mate. Trust me I am keen to know the pros and cons but you've not actually presented anything that I see as a + or - for either, different in a couple of ways yes but better or worse is only in the context in which you choose to throw them.

You say it can't carry Storm Shields when you mean it can't carry Terminators with Storm Shields due solely to the fact that there are no SS/TH Terminators in the GK's anyway so it is totally irrelevant. I could equally say the BA Raven is a pile o' crap because it can't carry an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor.

Against the Crusaders your Termies armour doesn't count for squat, technically I actually have better armour because your hammers don't ignore my 5+ armour where my Power Weps ignore your 2+ armour, Storm Shields make all that irrelevant of course, until I start popping your shields with the Vindicare. Sure they are down on Strength to your Termies but I can Hammerhand and MoT them up to 5 to your fixed 4. My toughness is down too but I can drop yours to the same level with Rad grenades and I get 3 Crusaders to every 1 Termie. Our WS is the same but my Ini is 3 to your 1 so my 12 guys can cause some serious hurt to your 4 before you've struck a blow. Or I can just throw a Psykotroke and let you guys fight it out amongst yourselves.

Saying the GK Raven is shit because it doesn't have AT missiles is like saying the afore mentioned BA TAC squad is shit because it doesn't have Psycannon, much like the whole SS/TH thing.

I'll take the ability to throw 4 Mindstrikes up Mephiston's Jacksay from the other end of the board and peril him out of existence over popping a tank or two any day , the Vindicare does it better any ways.

Horses for courses mate.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Vindicares have a 36" range, they don't do much from the far end of the table.

Blast weapons are pretty damned inaccurate at shooting single 25mm based models, until you hit BS5.

Hammers DO ignore your armour...? It's just irrelevant.

With additions, your unit can be made to beat mine. That still doesn't make it better. A unit of JUST Crusaders is vastly inferior to JUST Storm Shield Terminators.

A Stormraven's best use is to deliver TH/SS to the heart of the foe, and hope that it lives long enough to Multi-Melta enough stuff they splat everything.

That option does not exist for GKs.

A GK Raven has Fortitude, yes, this is a plus - so is having the option of {conditional} Stealth - but if it can't match the best use of a different model of Raven, then it isn't as good. Mindstrikes provide anti-infantry, this is not something GKs lack even a little.


----------



## Aramoro

Why would you ever put crusaders in a GK Stormraven, fill it with Deathcult Assassins point for point they will shred TH/SS Terminators, perhaps even model for model in the right circumstance.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

TheKingElessar said:


> Vindicares have a 36" range, they don't do much from the far end of the table.


Like most things. Thing is the Vindicare gets more than 4 shots and has a colossally better chance of hitting.



TheKingElessar said:


> Blast weapons are pretty damned inaccurate at shooting single 25mm based models, until you hit BS5.


Servo Skulls?



TheKingElessar said:


> Hammers DO ignore your armour...? It's just irrelevant.


 True



TheKingElessar said:


> With additions, your unit can be made to beat mine. That still doesn't make it better. A unit of JUST Crusaders is vastly inferior to JUST Storm Shield Terminators.


More unsubstantiated hyperbole. Unaided, they can give you a run for you money but once you add in the thing you said "... the things they can be used in concert with..." they can wipe the floor with you for a third of the cost.



TheKingElessar said:


> A Stormraven's best use is to deliver TH/SS to the heart of the foe, and hope that it lives long enough to Multi-Melta enough stuff they splat everything.


 In a BA army not in a GK Army which is exactly the point I keep making saying they can't do something with something that doesn't exist is ridiculous, I can just as easily drop 12 Crusaders or 6 Paladins or 6 Crusaders and 6 DCA into the same heart and who don't have to hope they survive to splat everything, they will splat everything.



TheKingElessar said:


> A GK Raven has Fortitude, yes, this is a plus - so is having the option of {conditional} Stealth - but if it can't match the best use of a different model of Raven, then it isn't as good.


 Bollocks "best use" is only an opinion, I can think of more useful things the Raven can do,



TheKingElessar said:


> Mindstrikes provide anti-infantry, this is not something GKs lack even a little.


 Apart from the whole take down a major HQ unit before its even had time to scratch its bum thing. I'll take major damage on a 200+ point psyker over a 30 point rhino any day.

But look enough of this all your going to do is make up something else to try to prove the point and I another to refute it. 

We are at that agree to disagree stage.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Aramoro said:


> Why would you ever put crusaders in a GK Stormraven, fill it with Deathcult Assassins point for point they will shred TH/SS Terminators, perhaps even model for model in the right circumstance.


Because Stormravens are pointless with out Storm Shields ... apparently.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Yeah, so, well, umm... I think I'm going to run the BA version. Yeah, that'll work.


----------



## Arcane

^LOL Jace

After seeing that you can't Scout move a GK Stormraven, they definitely don't look so good after all. Either way TKE it's easy to talk tacticas when your assuming your dice are going to roll as you expect. We can go rock paper scissors all day, what a real game of skill comes down to is who makes the first mistake _on the field_, not who writes and plans a better list.


----------



## Vaz

Planning makes its own luck.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Vaz said:


> Planning makes its own luck.


I hear that. Which is why I'm planning now for most likely October or November.


----------



## Arcane

Vaz said:


> Planning makes its own luck.


Until you are going first and your opponent steals the initiative. Or you hold your entire army in reserve and keep getting 2 units in each turn. Anecdotes and counter tactica sound great on a forum but there are plenty of players who show up at a tourney with an "uber" list and bulletproof plan who get tabled because they rolled 3s instead of 4s most of the game.

So go ahead, hold your entire army in reserve vs a shooty list. You'll lose horribly as your units walk in from the table edge and are picked off one by one.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Arcane said:


> Until you are going first and your opponent steals the initiative. Or you hold your entire army in reserve and keep getting 2 units in each turn. Anecdotes and counter tactica sound great on a forum but there are plenty of players who show up at a tourney with an "uber" list and bulletproof plan who get tabled because they rolled 3s instead of 4s most of the game.
> 
> So go ahead, hold your entire army in reserve vs a shooty list. You'll lose horribly as your units walk in from the table edge and are picked off one by one.


Yeah, most at my LGS refer to that instance as the Derp Strike.


----------



## Archon Dan

TheKingElessar said:


> *Firing 3 single weapons at enemy vehicles, irrespective of weapon, is not 'an efficient combo' especially when one of those requires a Psychic Test too. It's a potentially devastating combo, but far from efficient.


Perhaps I misspoke. Potential is what I was talking about. But to be fair, the Stormraven's weapons are twin-linked, increasing their destructive potential. And while Blood Lance can be nullified or peril, it can strike multiple vehicles too. As Arcane points out below, I'm banking on rolling what I need to succeed and take out 3 vehicles/units.



Arcane said:


> Until you are going first and your opponent steals the initiative. Or you hold your entire army in reserve and keep getting 2 units in each turn. Anecdotes and counter tactica sound great on a forum but there are plenty of players who show up at a tourney with an "uber" list and bulletproof plan who get tabled because they rolled 3s instead of 4s most of the game.


Good point. I've seen and been on the recieiving end of Lady Luck's whims.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Sure Arcane, of course that happens. there's no legislating for it - equally, I could come on 1 at a time and you fail to kill a goddamn thing all game.

That's why 1 game is no barometer of, well, anything.

You want to make a judgement call, you look at averages, and spread. The lower the spread, and better the average, the better the unit at doing whatever specific thing you're working out. It's not the be-all and end-all, but it's a much better starting point than any other I've heard of.


----------



## Vaz

Arcane said:


> Until you are going first and your opponent steals the initiative.


then plan around that.



> Or you hold your entire army in reserve and keep getting 2 units in each turn.


then plan around that. In the marines I ws taught a little dit about it. fail to plan, plan to fail. plan to fail, however and brace for victory.

factor in your own weaknesses and address them such as using skulls, telehomers, astropaths, autarchs, land raider prometheus/siege captains and communion to maximise your chances. its called min/maxing. most jebends feel its simply taking maximum amounts of minimum variety in reality however its simply minimising weaknesses while maximising strengths. having a close combat squad walk while a shooty unit spends an entire game in a transport is not min/maxing - switching them is.



> Anecdotes and counter tactica sound great on a forum but there are plenty of players who show up at a tourney with an "uber" list and bulletproof plan who get tabled because they rolled 3s instead of 4s most of the game.


do you even realise the irony of this comment?



> So go ahead, hold your entire army in reserve vs a shooty list. You'll lose horribly as your units walk in from the table edge and are picked off one by one.


sooo deep strike, outflank, scout turbo boost intervening terrain mobile cover, suicide/shooting tarpit units, misdirectors, flat out movement all mean nothing to you, then? exactly how many tournaments have you been to in which a cqc player decides to maximise his opponents chance to shoot at him without shooting back?


----------



## Arcane

Vaz said:


> then plan around that.
> 
> 
> then plan around that. In the marines I ws taught a little dit about it. fail to plan, plan to fail. plan to fail, however and brace for victory.
> 
> factor in your own weaknesses and address them such as using skulls, telehomers, astropaths, autarchs, land raider prometheus/siege captains and communion to maximise your chances. its called min/maxing. most jebends feel its simply taking maximum amounts of minimum variety in reality however its simply minimising weaknesses while maximising strengths. having a close combat squad walk while a shooty unit spends an entire game in a transport is not min/maxing - switching them is.
> 
> 
> do you even realise the irony of this comment?
> 
> 
> sooo deep strike, outflank, scout turbo boost intervening terrain mobile cover, suicide/shooting tarpit units, misdirectors, flat out movement all mean nothing to you, then? exactly how many tournaments have you been to in which a cqc player decides to maximise his opponents chance to shoot at him without shooting back?


Cool story, you must win every game you play since your handing out all this advice. 

I've played 2 ard boyz where the opponent reserved everything rather than face my gun line, then came in slow and got shot to pieces. 

My original point was two Stormravens scouting up for first turn assault was a good tactic but Sun Tzu over there insists he's got all the answers. I've never claimed such a tactic was bulletroof or instant win but I'm glad you guys have got that covered. Why are either of you on these forums and not writing strategems for the UN security council or taking over for Matt Ward at GW?


----------



## Vaz

ah, and like a friday night in liverpool, we eventually see a cunt, and without too much work.

go play like you want. dont want to get involved in talking about tactics and how to use models, well fuck me, dont get involved. attempt to completely invalidate everything thats said because its all on the roll of a dice. if you want. while that happens youll be a complete and utter fuckwit.

by the way, the un security council is politics, fuck no, and im beginnimg to look back, and im wondering exactly what mat ward has done wrong. 

i m looking at one book alone here that I consoder a disgrace - fantasy daemons.

sure he cant write fluff for a trick at the brothel, but hes not bad with his rules these days.

compare that to phil kellys space wolves eldar adam trokes high elves, and youll be begging for mat ward and his space marines.

but yeah, must try harder sunshine. that was frightfully pitiful.


----------



## mcmuffin

Ard boyz was never a competitive tournament, it was a fucking shambles designed by GW to get more money.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Not seeing what the ol' Matt Ward hate/love nugget has to do with the debate here; Arc was just saying if you believe you are so good go take over his job, maybe we are getting so predisposed to that debate that even the mention of the poor chap's name has us jumping into the trenches?

What ever your opinion of 'ard boyz (and skilfully working in a a dis' of GW as well) it doesn't alter the fact that Arc is saying that bringing your forces on in penny packets is a good way get them chewed up and the notion of a scouting Raven was a neat solution, sadly not doable under the rules.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

My, this thread has gotten into some interesting aspects.


----------



## SGMAlice

Magpie_Oz said:


> maybe we are getting so predisposed to that debate that even the mention of the poor chap's name has us jumping into the trenches?


Less 'Jumping into the Trenches' and more 'Manning the Vickers' as most people take a shot at the guy at some point for his Fluff skills, or lack thereof.

Either way, its all vaguely amusing.

Alice


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Which I don't get as I think his fluff is great so that puts me in the loyalist trench I believe.
Shame really I wouldn't mind if he actually had some input on forums as there are 1000's of things I'd like to chat with him about.


----------



## SGMAlice

BA/Necron Alliance?
Uber-Draigo the immortal Daemon killer?

No, I'm more a hobbyist than a player, and the fluff is way down even further but that was just silly.
If the BA/Necron Alliance had gone belly up as soon as the Tyranids were annihilated then maybe, it would have been semi-believeable, but as he wrote it they may as well have had tea and biscuits afterwards.
On top of that, if i recall correctly, the Tyranids went out of their way to avoid the Necrons as they possess no biological material whatsoever and are possibly 'afraid' of them (yes, they have no fear, i know, but they do seem to be making HUGE detours around them). So why did the Tyranids even bother attacking.

This is all from what i have read, in my limted scope of the books available to me. His rules are satisfactory though.

Alice


----------



## Magpie_Oz

I have no problem with either of those concepts, particularly Draigo as he is _supposed_ to be Daemon Slayers' Daemon slayer.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Draigo, I'd like you to meet another high profile slayer. This is Buffy.


----------



## Arcane

Matt Ward point was that he seems to be the go-to guy at GW. 

Anyway, I hate to come off as an asshole, it's just really rude and annoying when you suggest a tactic and there's always someone who can't help but jump in and say "Yeah but if you do that, I do this and then I win". Of course there's always a counter tactic, always a "I'll do this". Well go ahead and do "this" because like I said, it's a good tactic and it all depends on the dice. Sadly it can't even be done so it doesn't really matter. 

Also, the people comparing 'Ard Boyz, are you even from the States? Here it was ran by LGS and was as competitive as the players wanted it to be. One guy called me out because my Lascannon wasn't glued on correctly so how could it shoot? So I then reminded him that his Rhino couldn't drive because the treds weren't glued on yet. lol


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Arcane said:


> Matt Ward point was that he seems to be the go-to guy at GW.
> 
> Anyway, I hate to come off as an asshole, it's just really rude and annoying when you suggest a tactic and there's always someone who can't help but jump in and say "Yeah but if you do that, I do this and then I win". Of course there's always a counter tactic, always a "I'll do this". Well go ahead and do "this" because like I said, it's a good tactic and it all depends on the dice. Sadly it can't even be done so it doesn't really matter.
> 
> Also, the people comparing 'Ard Boyz, are you even from the States? Here it was ran by LGS and was as competitive as the players wanted it to be. One guy called me out because my Lascannon wasn't glued on correctly so how could it shoot? So I then reminded him that his Rhino couldn't drive because the treds weren't glued on yet. lol


Dude, my Rhinos drive everywhere, even though the treads are glued in place.

That's a 'Just wow' situation.


----------



## Archon Dan

SGMAlice said:


> BA/Necron Alliance?
> Uber-Draigo the immortal Daemon killer?
> 
> No, I'm more a hobbyist than a player, and the fluff is way down even further but that was just silly.
> If the BA/Necron Alliance had gone belly up as soon as the Tyranids were annihilated then maybe, it would have been semi-believeable, but as he wrote it they may as well have had tea and biscuits afterwards.
> On top of that, if i recall correctly, the Tyranids went out of their way to avoid the Necrons as they possess no biological material whatsoever and are possibly 'afraid' of them (yes, they have no fear, i know, but they do seem to be making HUGE detours around them). So why did the Tyranids even bother attacking.
> 
> This is all from what i have read, in my limted scope of the books available to me. His rules are satisfactory though.
> 
> Alice


The Blood Angels likely did want to turn the fighting right back to the Necrons but were probably depleted by the Tyranids. So when the Silent King offered a truce, they left, no doubt intending to hunt him down later. The only reason the Silent King offered a truce was because his Praetorian bodyguard had been watching the Blood Angels fight and deemed them honorable. For some reason, the new Necrons are all about honor, so the Silent King could not obliterate the Blood Angels without violating his people's laws. I think the fact that the Blood Angels proved they could destroy Tyranids without making the Hive Fleets stronger played a part too.

Given the new fluff, the Necrons want to return to flesh. If the Tyranids destroy all life then the Necrons can't do that, assuming they need host bodies from other races. That is why the Silent King returned from exile. He fears that the other races will only make the Tyranids stronger in their attempts to destroy them. But Tyranids gain no biomass from fighting Necrons and avoid them. In truth, I wonder why the Tyranid attacked the planet, unless the potential resource gain outweighed the threat of the present Necron fleet. There are certainly a few holes like that but for the Blood Angels, fighting one enemy was certainly better than fighting both at once. Dante is incredibly wise(better be at 1100 years old) and if he has to make a truce in order to survive in order to kill you later, he will.

Who knows. We may see more such alliances as the fluff continues to progress. I mean, the Dark Eldar came to the aid of Craftworld Iyanden against the Tyranids. They gave a mocking answer as to why but I think even they recognize what the destruction of all life would mean. They'd be safe in the Webway from the Tyranids but with no remaining life to feed on they would be swallowed by Slaanesh. Just my thoughts. Take from it what you want.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Draigo, I'd like you to meet another high profile slayer. This is Buffy.


You can make an equally wanker comment about every single character in the entire 40k system so what's your point ?

@Archon Dan, Good post. I would have thought that all of us are sufficiently interested in Sci-Fi writings that we'd be willing to accept almost anything that is put forward in the fluff rather than "No this is the box and the box is the box and one cannot move beyond the box lest the box not be the box."

Hardest question answer is response to the Matt Ward hate it seems is "Why ?"


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Magpie_Oz said:


> You can make an equally wanker comment about every single character in the entire 40k system so what's your point ?


Hope you didn't spend to much effort on that considering I didn't direct a single damn condescending remark at you.


----------



## Vaz

violins. violins in the deeps!


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Vaz said:


> violins. violins in the deeps!


Ha


----------



## Tawa

Play nice boys and girls


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Tawa said:


> Play nice boys and girls


Don't you tell me how to live my life!


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Hope you didn't spend to much effort on that considering I didn't direct a single damn condescending remark at you.


"Draigo, I'd like you to meet another high profile slayer. This is Buffy."

Apart from that one of course


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Magpie_Oz said:


> "Draigo, I'd like you to meet another high profile slayer. This is Buffy."
> 
> Apart from that one of course


So, you took personally a comment about a fictional character. Hmmm... Ok.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Jace of Ultramar said:


> So, you took personally a comment about a fictional character. Hmmm... Ok.


No I spotted a wanker comment.


----------



## SGMAlice

Jace of Ultramar said:


> So, you took personally a comment about a fictional character. Hmmm... Ok.


I took it for an amusing anecdote. Was i wrong....

Alice


----------



## Tawa

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Don't you tell me how to live my life!


Don't you tell me to not tell you how to live your life!


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Tawa said:


> Don't you tell me to not tell you how to live your life!


And don't YOU not tell him to not to tell you to tell him to ..... errr damn


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

SGMAlice said:


> I took it for an amusing anecdote. Was i wrong....
> 
> Alice


No, Alice you're correct. See, I don't give a damn about the named imaginary characters that form the fluff of 40K nor do I own more than one codex. Ai, in that respect I don't know if Draigo has that listed after his entry in the 'whatever' 'dex he exist in. So, I made a funny remark that was obviously taken out of context by the person I quoted who listed him.

If I want to call someone out or make a remark that is personally directed at them then I'll PM then instead of making it public.


----------



## Tawa

Magpie_Oz said:


> And don't YOU not tell him to not to tell you to tell him to ..... errr damn


En garde! :laugh:


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Jace of Ultramar said:


> So, I made a funny remark that was obviously taken out of context by the person I quoted who listed him.


I am sorry my mistake, I thought you had a point to make.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Magpie_Oz said:


> I am sorry my mistake, I thought you had a point to make.


Nope, no particular point at all. 

I like this thread. It started out strong and to the point. But, by page 13, it is now off topic with ranting, name calling, slander against an author of a 'dex (pardon I mean libel), and pictures of a hearse. I'm waiting for rap music, metal, beer, and porn to find its way into the mix.

Norm, how long til this gets locked?


----------



## TheKingElessar

I'd like to get on topic again, by referring back a couple pages to Arcane STILL calling this illegal move a 'good tactic'.

Something that cannot be done within the rules cannot be a good tactic.

Something that is easily counterable to the point of irrelevance by most if not all armies (ok, Tau) cannot be a good tactic.

Throwing a Deathstar unit directly at the foe simply to force thme to deal with it, is not even truly a tactic, regardless of quality.

As for Mat Ward - his fluff is perfectly in keeping with the fine tradition of GW fluff - some is pure shit, what with it being *subjective *and all. Ultramarines weren't originally First Founding, and Nids were agents of Chaos. Get over it. :laugh: With specific reference to Draigo, it's clear that facing Mortarion wasn't in a vacuum, it implies it were during a rather trying battle for the Daemon Primarch, in which he had already slain a Grey Knights Supreme Grand Master, or at least somewhat soon afterwards. Even the powers of a Daemon Primarch are not infinite, and he would have required time to recover his strength - since he obviously didn't follow him into the Warp to do so, he was weaker due to his presence in the Material Realm, we know of Mortarion from other fluff that he rarely ventures from the Eye anymore, indicating his battle prowess is likely lessened over the millennia - oh, and the very nature of Nurgle is once of waxing and waning, he could easily have been at a low point of his strength when faced by the greatest Grey Knight since Janus ten thousand years before...


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

What is a Deathstar unit?


----------



## TheKingElessar

It's a unit literally designed to fulfill the role the Death Star was meant to perform - to be an unstoppable engine of destruction that required little or not support elements to attain victory.

A good example would be a unit of 10 Paladins (fully complex, Apothecary, Bro Banner, Halberds, Hammers, Psycannons etc) Draigo, a Techmarine (for Grenades) and either a Librarian (for Stealth) or Coteaz (for cheap other Troops choices) - this is a unit that by it's nature and points cost is designed to/forced to try to win virtually alone, and is maximised to assist in trying to take on most other things in the process.

They're rarely subtle, and rarely good.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Jace of Ultramar said:


> I'm waiting for rap music, metal, beer, and porn to find its way into the mix.


I'm just waiting for porn


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

TheKingElessar said:


> It's a unit literally designed to fulfill the role the Death Star was meant to perform - to be an unstoppable engine of destruction that required little or not support elements to attain victory.
> 
> A good example would be a unit of 10 Paladins (fully complex, Apothecary, Bro Banner, Halberds, Hammers, Psycannons etc) Draigo, a Techmarine (for Grenades) and either a Librarian (for Stealth) or Coteaz (for cheap other Troops choices) - this is a unit that by it's nature and points cost is designed to/forced to try to win virtually alone, and is maximised to assist in trying to take on most other things in the process.
> 
> They're rarely subtle, and rarely good.


One thing I enjoy doing is trying to take on an opponent using an 'unstoppable Death Star' such as this. Sounds like another General Kenobi and/or Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter list. Oh, how I enjoyed playing against those lists and just debunking the 'net deckers who would run it expecting an easy win by just fielding those two.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

I am a fan of Deathstars, nothing like a mighty punch fiar where the sun don't shine to put your opponent off his game.

By the by, what IS a good list TKE seeing as how nothing we do here seems to remotely be a threat to you?


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Magpie_Oz said:


> I'm just waiting for porn


Lol! It would be interesting to see what would show up on here.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Lol! It would be interesting to see what would show up on here.


On second thoughts, after reading the Forum Formula thread I'm not so sure I'd like to find out.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Magpie_Oz said:


> I am a fan of Deathstars, nothing like a mighty punch fiar where the sun don't shine to put your opponent off his game.
> 
> By the by, what IS a good list TKE seeing as how nothing we do here seems to remotely be a threat to you?


A 'threat to me'? 

I'm not ever going to be silly enough to say Deathstars can't be dangerous, but they are unreliable, and if you know how to handle them then they are easy to negate barring freakish luck.

Good lists are balanced and have versatile, effective units. Alas, in this edition, that almost inevitably makes them some sort of Spess Mehreen...

A good list won't rely too heavily on any one unit to do it's heavy lifting, and will ideally have that redundancy army-wide, with each unit capable of engaging any type of foe, though of course some will be better than others.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

TheKingElessar said:


> A 'threat to me'?
> 
> I'm not ever going to be silly enough to say Deathstars can't be dangerous, but they are unreliable, and if you know how to handle them then they are easy to negate barring freakish luck.
> 
> Good lists are balanced and have versatile, effective units. Alas, in this edition, that almost inevitably makes them some sort of Spess Mehreen...
> 
> A good list won't rely too heavily on any one unit to do it's heavy lifting, and will ideally have that redundancy army-wide, with each unit capable of engaging any type of foe, though of course some will be better than others.


Very well said.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

hmmm maybe but an army of Jacks-of-all-Trades does tend to end up doing a great many things well but no one thing brilliantly and can be vulnerable to an attack weighted in a particular manner.

You need your specialists and the dilemma is do you spend some points on making everyone OK at something, at the expense of your specialist who is now only good when they could be Uber.

The notion is an age old one of do I have a combined arms force of specialists who rely on each other for support or do I have a force composed of units that are multi-role?


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

I'm going to have to go make a sandwich while I watch this play out.


----------



## Archon Dan

Magpie_Oz said:


> hmmm maybe but an army of Jacks-of-all-Trades does tend to end up doing a great many things well but no one thing brilliantly and can be vulnerable to an attack weighted in a particular manner.
> 
> You need your specialists and the dilemma is do you spend some points on making everyone OK at something, at the expense of your specialist who is now only good when they could be Uber.
> 
> The notion is an age old one of do I have a combined arms force of specialists who rely on each other for support or do I have a force composed of units that are multi-role?


I think either is potentially viable. A jack of all trades list can function without some of its pieces and still be relatively effective. On the reverse, the specialists units will likely remove their intended target faster but if they are removed, the rest of the army has difficulty compensating.

A Dark Eldar Wych squad with Haywire grenades is probably classifiable as jack of all trades. They are 12 points each(because of grenades), have splinter pistols to ensure they can wound high toughness and MC units, are good in close combat, though they need 5+ to wound MEQ and the grenades let them damage vehicles, albeit not easily against walkers.

The specialist would be the Dark Eldar Incubi, specialising in Elite unit killing in combat. They can't shoot but all carry power weapons with higher attacks. Perhaps not the best examples but they work.


As for deathstar units. They are envitably expensive and the good ones are able to handle any threat. The Necron Royal Court for example can be a deathstar, though gearing them to survive is an incredible devotion of points. The average model cost can easily be 90+ points. They can disperse weapons with special targets in mind among them as well. But in taking different weapons that excel at doing different things, the unit as a whole becomes a jack of all trades. The 2-3 Warscythes will take out veicles with little issue but the rest of the unit sits idle against high AV targets. The important thing to remember is that it is one unit and other armies can field multiple units for the same cost. Even a swarm of fire ants could kill an elephant by sheer weight of numbers.


----------



## Arcane

Magpie_Oz said:


> I am a fan of Deathstars, nothing like a mighty punch fiar where the sun don't shine to put your opponent off his game.
> 
> By the by, what IS a good list TKE seeing as how nothing we do here seems to remotely be a threat to you?


That's a silly question since it would take an entire thread to discern why his every post is just a big self pat on the back for being TKE. Judging from his posts I would say he can be no other than Matt Ward himself. 

My strategy was so bad that instead of taking 5 minutes to explain why it technically wouldn't work, like Magpie so graciously did, TKE had to go out of his way to explain why his superior tactical ability would make such an effort useless. 

So don't bother asking. This is the internet, you can't have an opinion of your own without someone like him telling you how wrong you are and that a GK Raven is utter crap. Don't even bother trying to come up with your own strategem. As TKE has said, anything you try is "easy to negate barring freakish luck." I weep for the tourney scene.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Hmmm.......


----------



## Vaz

you make me laugh. 'cant have an opinion of your own'? what and were not allowed our opinion on yours? what kind of fucked up idea is that? 'i cant be wrong its only my opinion'.

its my opinion pigs fly - henceforth it must be true as it cannot be wrong.

what was that justin timberlake song again? how did it go... let me think... ah yes here we go. cry me a riverrr. whoa. cry me a riverrr. whoa


----------



## Tawa

Magpie_Oz said:


> I'm just waiting for porn


*lapdance*

Wait, I mean.....:shok:


----------



## Magpie_Oz

ahhhhhh tooo late I've already read it ! I feel so dirty ! :scare:

Mind you....... I'll actually be in Scotland in about 2 weeks .... so ... well *ahem* maybe ummm ..... never mind.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Opinions can be wrong. Welcome to the adult world.

Back on-topic - a balanced list is not really susceptible to what you suggest Mags, you see, if it isn't able to handle with some reasonable success both mechanised and infantry-heavy lists, then it isn't truly that balanced.

On the other hand, unbalanced lists such as Deathstars, turn the game into more of a rock-paper-scissors proposition. If we both play Deathstar armies, but mine is better than yours and kills it, I win, with player skill and tactical ability not even being a factor.
If mine is inferior to yours, you win, same caveats. And, ok, winning, or having had fun before that, may be enough alone for you - but I'd rather have a tight enjoyable game with the outcome in the balance, not a game where whoever rolls more 6s wins.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

TheKingElessar said:


> Opinions can be wrong. Welcome to the adult world.


"And, because, your opinion is different than mine it is instantly wrong."
-Jeremy Clarkson, Top Gear

Don't really think opinions can be wrong, even in the "Adult World", but I do think there are those who refuse to consider the possibility of another P.O.V.

On topic; TKE. Would you mind providing a Balanced List? I'm curious to see what your interpretation is in relation to the topic. Or, maybe post a link to one?


----------



## Vaz

in my opinion black is white.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Vaz said:


> in my opinion black is white.


Is UP same as DOWN for you too?


----------



## MidnightSun

http://www.3plusplus.net/p/army-list-compilation.html

Can't be arsed to filter through them for the good and the not-so-good, but feast your eyes upon these tasty documents.

Midnight


----------



## Tawa

Magpie_Oz said:


> ahhhhhh tooo late I've already read it ! I feel so dirty ! :scare:
> 
> Mind you....... I'll actually be in Scotland in about 2 weeks .... so ... well *ahem* maybe ummm ..... never mind.


Sadly I live in England, but if you're _very_ nice to me I could head home for the weekend *shuffles feet coyly* :wink:


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Tawa said:


> Sadly I live in England, but if you're _very_ nice to me I could head home for the weekend *shuffles feet coyly* :wink:


Ghhhkk!


----------



## TheKingElessar

A good list? Well, Arcane would be devastated if I didn't post a list of my own, I'd hate to disappoint...

Blood Angels 1850 (That I'm using this weekend in a Tourny.)
Librarian; Infernus pistol, Shield, Sword
Librarian; Infernus pistol, Shield, Sword
Priest; Power Weapon
Priest; Power Weapon
Assault Squad; Meltagun, Razorback [LasPlas, Dozer]
Assault Squad; Meltagun, Razorback [LasPlas, Dozer]
Assault Squad; Meltagun, Razorback [LasPlas, Dozer]
Assault Squad; Meltagun, Razorback [LasPlas, Dozer]
Assault Squad; Meltagun, Infernus Pistol, Razorback [HF, Dozer, HKM]
Assault Squad; Meltagun, Infernus Pistol, Razorback [HF, Dozer, HKM]
Land Speeder; MM/HF
Land Speeder; MM/HF
Land Speeder; MM/HF
Predator; AutoLas
Predator; AutoLas

The list sure isn't perfect, but it's pretty well balanced between ranged and close-up anti-tank, it has more than enough anti-infantry for any infantry that scare me, and it can even fight well-ish in Assault, not that that matters hugely.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Wow, that's a lot of firepower. Are the assault squads 10 man? I don't have a BA 'dex to flip through and verify but I'm proceeding from the assumption they are not since they include Las/Plas Razorbacks.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

I'm guessing 6 man sans Jump Packs.


----------



## Arcane

Opinions are like assholes

Everyone has them, but the English have to shove theirs down everyone else in the world's throats. Anyways Vez, you are entitled to your opinion, just don't be surprised if I react rudely to you if you and your Limey pal crassly criticize others in a thread, it IS the American way after all. 

Oh surprise, TKE uses BA with an extremely boring, dry variety that could put Gandhi to sleep. I'de be surprised if he played a half challenging army like any 4th or early 5th ed codex. TKE, did you buy yourself a BF Box as soon as the dex hit so you could roll all teh local noobz?


----------



## Sakura_ninja

Arcane said:


> Opinions are like assholes
> 
> Everyone has them, but the English have to shove theirs down everyone else in the world's throats.
> 
> Oh surprise, TKE uses BA with an extremely boring, dry variety that could put Gandhi to sleep. I'de be surprised if you played a half challenging army like any 4th or early 5th ed codex.


Although I agree that sort of list is extremely boring (and has nothing to do with stormravens), why knock the English?, its not true and has nothing to do with stormravens and shows an ignorant "i am better than you" attitude which I could say that Americans always seem to show.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Can you actually put a hole down somebody's throat? It's a bit like eating the centre of a doughnut.


----------



## Sakura_ninja

Magpie_Oz said:


> Can you actually put a hole down somebody's throat? It's a bit like eating the centre of a doughnut.


Swallow a mint polo, you swallow a hole


----------



## Magpie_Oz

No that is a choking hazard. 

But you can't swallow nothing can you?

A hole is a thing that exists only by the existence of it's surrounding which it cannot exist independently of.


----------



## Arcane

If you search teh google machine I doubt it would be hard to find an example of someone shoving their hole down someone's throat. 

Anyways, any update on your Ravens Jace?


----------



## Rems

Arcane said:


> Oh surprise, TKE uses BA with an extremely boring, dry variety that could put Gandhi to sleep. I'de be surprised if he played a half challenging army like any 4th or early 5th ed codex. TKE, did you buy yourself a BF Box as soon as the dex hit so you could roll all teh local noobz?


He wasn't asked for a 'fluffy' list or a 'random' or 'fun' list. He was asked for a good, effective list and he provided one. 

It's got anti infantry and and anti tank firepower, redundancy and target saturation and can handle itself in combat against shooty armies. 

Stop complaining that he doesn't pay with his toy soldiers in the same way you do. It's not just 'competitive' players who can be arseholes.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Arcane said:


> Oh surprise, TKE uses BA with an extremely boring, dry variety that could put Gandhi to sleep. I'de be surprised if he played a half challenging army like any 4th or early 5th ed codex. TKE, did you buy yourself a BF Box as soon as the dex hit so you could roll all teh local noobz?


TKE (since we are using his name in a 3rd person tense) does use "half challenging armies" as you put it since he is also one of the best minds for Eldar players on this forum. Do they constitute as a 4th edition codex or am I shoving this down your throat which you seem to have about British people making a point or answering a question that is put to them? TKE is one of the best strategists in Heresy and if he says that X and Y work together for army Z then most of the time I will listen.

Also I object to your said such opinon of the British but to avoid dragging the thread off course and getting too political I will not mention it again.

I advise you do not bring it up either


----------



## TheKingElessar

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Wow, that's a lot of firepower. Are the assault squads 10 man? I don't have a BA 'dex to flip through and verify but I'm proceeding from the assumption they are not since they include Las/Plas Razorbacks.





Magpie_Oz said:


> I'm guessing 6 man sans Jump Packs.


5-man units, sadly, a 6th guy would be nice sometimes, but the Libbies ride with 2, and the Priests in another two. If the foe has no way to trace LOS to the Priests over Rhino chassis, they deploy on foot, to redeploy to a squad without Red Thirst for greater tactical advantage.


Arcane said:


> Opinions are like assholes
> 
> Everyone has them, but the English have to shove theirs down everyone else in the world's throats. Anyways Vez, you are entitled to your opinion, just don't be surprised if I react rudely to you if you and your Limey pal crassly criticize others in a thread, it IS the American way after all.
> 
> Oh surprise, TKE uses BA with an extremely boring, dry variety that could put Gandhi to sleep. I'de be surprised if he played a half challenging army like any 4th or early 5th ed codex. TKE, did you buy yourself a BF Box as soon as the dex hit so you could roll all teh local noobz?


Boring? That's entirely subjective, but if 'never auto-losing' is what you find boring, then you have fun with that. Blood Angels were the first army I ever played, as I have stated many times. I played them with the Battle For Armageddon book in 2e, and one of my earliest memories is playing a game of 2e at 2k vs Eldar, aged 8, and getting virtually tabled. Towards the end of 2nd I moved to Orks, whom I now own roughly 12k of. I started Eldar at some point in late 3rd, and now have about 6-7k built, and 12 entire Grav Tanks in my bits box. I started CSM in 3rd too, and have roughly 5-6k of them (thanks eBay!) and played a pure Death Guard list right up until the most recent CSM book killed it, and I returned to Eldar whom I had been playing less. I finally started vanilla SMs when 5e came out, because I had a job, and the Scythes of the Emperor I'd always wanted were as good a new army as any. I still have that army half-painted, and am equally happy to play it as BA, whom I started playing again shortly after the DE book came out, because one particular noob was insistent that Death Company were insanely broken and the ONLY way to run BA, despite being worse than in the PDF. I showed him, enjoyed the playstyle, and eventually stopped proxying and bought this army I'm using now.

The Tournaments I have attended in 5th Edition read thusly; Eldar, Eldar, Eldar, Space Marines (doubles, so hardly even a tournament) Tau, Tau.

I don't, however, need to justify myself to you, or anyone else. I play this game as I fucking please, and I'll tell anyone who asks for advice that what they're doing/using/being told is crap when it's crap. If you don't want to deal with that, the Ignore button is a great feature.



Magpie_Oz said:


> Can you actually put a hole down somebody's throat? It's a bit like eating the centre of a doughnut.


No, and I'd hate to see someone try. uke:


Rems said:


> He wasn't asked for a 'fluffy' list or a 'random' or 'fun' list. He was asked for a good, effective list and he provided one.
> 
> It's got anti infantry and and anti tank firepower, redundancy and target saturation and can handle itself in combat against shooty armies.
> 
> Stop complaining that he doesn't pay with his toy soldiers in the same way you do. It's not just 'competitive' players who can be arseholes.


Nor was I asked for one from a specific age of Codex. Thank you.



Stephen_Newman said:


> TKE (since we are using his name in a 3rd person tense) does use "half challenging armies" as you put it since he is also one of the best minds for Eldar players on this forum. Do they constitute as a 4th edition codex or am I shoving this down your throat which you seem to have about British people making a point or answering a question that is put to them? TKE is one of the best strategists in Heresy and if he says that X and Y work together for army Z then most of the time I will listen.
> 
> Also I object to your said such opinon of the British but to avoid dragging the thread off course and getting too political I will not mention it again.
> 
> I advise you do not bring it up either


Thank you as well. Perhaps the information that I've only played an actual 5e book at a Tournament once this Edition, and in fact moved to an even older Codex, will sate his desire to know whether I play "half challenging armies" - perhaps if he were more accomplished as a player, he'd also realise that BA are fractionally inferior to the other 5e Marine books and IG.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

So, for a 1K game list how does the following stack up, balance wise? It's a list I ran a couple of months ago and saw 2/3 wins.

HQ 
Captain, PF, SB, MB

Troops
4x Tactical w/ Flamer, ML, CS 
Scouts, 8 man w/ Telion, ML, Snipers


----------



## Arcane

TheKingElessar said:


> I don't, however, need to justify myself to you, or anyone else. * I play this game as I fucking please*, and I'll tell anyone who asks for advice that what they're doing/using/being told is crap when it's crap. If you don't want to deal with that, the Ignore button is a great feature.


This is what you need to think before you post about other people's opinions. I'm glad I finally got this through your head. Maybe next time someone makes a post about a possible strategy with a unit you will consider it before indulging your ego and explaining while your counter tactic makes you infallible. opcorn:

Sorry to bugger all you English blokes backing your comrade up. You can go back to sipping tea now lol



Rems said:


> Stop complaining that he doesn't pay with his toy soldiers in the same way you do. It's not just 'competitive' players who can be arseholes.


Maybe if you read the origins of the thread you would see that it was him telling us all how to play with our toy soldiers because evidently any tactic we suggest is far inferior to his. It must be considering he suggested holding all your units in reserve against a gun line army. It seems any straw is worth grasping at in order to assert one's superiority as a "Accomplished player". Thanks for the input though.


----------



## Archon Dan

Magpie_Oz said:


> Can you actually put a hole down somebody's throat? It's a bit like eating the centre of a doughnut.


LOL. I'm skeptical that you could but intrigued that you may.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Archon Dan said:


> LOL. I'm skeptical that you could but intrigued that you may.


Technically a donut is a hole before you eat it. And if you swallow it whole...


----------



## TheKingElessar

Arcane said:


> This is what you need to think before you post about other people's opinions. I'm glad I finally got this through your head. Maybe next time someone makes a post about a possible strategy with a unit you will consider it before indulging your ego and explaining while your counter tactic makes you infallible. opcorn:
> 
> Sorry to bugger all you English blokes backing your comrade up. You can go back to sipping tea now lol
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe if you read the origins of the thread you would see that it was him telling us all how to play with our toy soldiers because evidently any tactic we suggest is far inferior to his. It must be considering he suggested holding all your units in reserve against a gun line army. It seems any straw is worth grasping at in order to assert one's superiority as a "Accomplished player". Thanks for the input though.


Hilarious. You haven't got ANYTHING through my head, except a diminishing opinion of you, post by post. Nobody gives a fuck how you, or I, or anyone else, plays the game at home or whatever, but if you come on the internet offering bad advice or bullshit strategy presented like genius, well, you deserve what you get. And that WILL be criticism.

Also, I'm not English.

Double also - and hopefully for the last time - your "possible strategy" was ILLEGAL. Stop talking like it wasn't anything but an error on your part, and best forgotten. You may like to note I don't keep harping on about your inability to read rules correctly, and only mention it when you defend your indefensible stance, over and over.

I don't care if people choose to ignore my advice or not - but I'm going to tell them they're only hurting themselves if they do, cos that's reality.

Holding all your units in Reserve against a gun-line is not a terrible thing, because most of us actually use this thing called TERRAIN. You should try it.

In fact, gun-lines are a worse thing than Reserving your whole army...


----------



## Rems

Arcane said:


> Maybe if you read the origins of the thread you would see that it was him telling us all how to play with our toy soldiers because evidently any tactic we suggest is far inferior to his. It must be considering he suggested holding all your units in reserve against a gun line army. It seems any straw is worth grasping at in order to assert one's superiority as a "Accomplished player". Thanks for the input though.


I did read the thread. An illegal tactic was put forward which TKE corrected and further elaborated on some of the faults of Storm Ravens, how to deal with them as an opponent and why the Grey Knight isn't as effective as the the Blood Angels one is. 

Also not English, as my flag clearly shows. 

Reserving against a gun-line army is a valid tactic. If you have a mobile, high firepower army (which you should if you're attempting this tactic) then you can dictate where you come onto the board and what sections of your opponents army you engage. You can deal with his army one section at a time as he scrambles to relocate. Given that the board should have lots of terrain on it (and a good portion of that los blocking) the gun line shouldn't be able to blow the oncoming army of the board if it's placed correctly. 

Of course on the table things can always go wrong, there are dice involved after all, but planning out a strategy and playing to averages seems like a good idea to me. 

@Jace

I don't really like that list to be honest. It's not very mobile, not very tough and not very shooty, which is what happens if you rely on tactical squads. I'd prune those tactical squads down to 2 and give them transports. This way they become a mobile threat and gain protection from shooting. 

For firepower and added armour saturation throw in a couple predators. They're so cheap it's easy to fit them in and they add some tough to penetrate at 1000 points armour 13. 

The rest of the points you can do as you wish. Starting with the above however gives you a tough, mobile core. Personally i'd drop the captain for a Liberian and maybe pick up a command squad in a third rhino, or razorback. But then i like armoured lists and you may not. I can concede that your list could be quite durable bunkered down in terrain with 40 power armoured bodies. (i assume you combat squad them for maximun firepower?). It's still not very mobile though, and weak in close combat.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Hi Rems, I like the profile pic. Definite thumbs up.

Well, I do like having bodies on the field and usually the number of bodies with ranged weapons has made a difference in the past. However, most of my games are casual with friends at their home or the LGS. I do need to step up my list building and thus my armies. I do have a particular liking and preference to tanks as well as marines. I just need to get more tanks.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

On a non whimsical side note another list I have looked into within the past week looks like this:

HQ 190 
Vulcan He'stan

Troops 980 
Tactical; Flamer, ML, Sgt w/combi, Rhino 
Tactical; Flamer, ML, Sgt w/combi, Rhino 
Tactical; Flamer, ML, Sgt w/combi, Rhino 
Tactical; MG, ML, Sgt w/combi, Rhino 
Scouts; 5 man, Snipers, ML, Telion

Elite 600 
Terminator Assault Squad; TH, SS, Landraider Redeemer 
Dreadnought, MM, HF, Drop Pod

Fast Attack 240 
Landspeeder; MM, HF 
Landspeeder; HF, MM 
Attack Bike x2, MM x2

This is quite a bit more mobile as it will get the troops moving as you've mentioned before Rems. The thought in mind for this list is in relation to my LGS and some of the more serious games that tend to occur.


----------



## Archon Dan

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Hi Rems, I like the profile pic. Definite thumbs up.
> 
> Well, I do like having bodies on the field and usually the number of bodies with ranged weapons has made a difference in the past. However, most of my games are casual with friends at their home or the LGS. I do need to step up my list building and thus my armies. I do have a particular liking and preference to tanks as well as marines. I just need to get more tanks.


Yeah. Not owning a model or certain types of models due to finances cost me quite a few of my early games. But the new list looks intrigueing. Very mobile and making good use of Vulcan's buffs. But I've begun to lean toward Librarians with my BA, probably because 2 of my armies don't even have psykers and it adds some diversity. Of course, Tyranids and Eldar make me hesitant to take more than one and BA can technically field 5 Librarian units.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Archon Dan said:


> Yeah. Not owning a model or certain types of models due to finances cost me quite a few of my early games. But the new list looks intrigueing. Very mobile and making good use of Vulcan's buffs. But I've begun to lean toward Librarians with my BA, probably because 2 of my armies don't even have psykers and it adds some diversity. Of course, Tyranids and Eldar make me hesitant to take more than one and BA can technically field 5 Librarian units.


See, I don't field Libbys due to they never work for me. I've played games with a Libby but to no success and the Libby usually getting taken out in some form or another. Vulcan seems like a good basis to build around just like Kantor is a good basis for Sternguard lists. I currently have a few tanks but they mostly pull double and tripled duty as Rhino, Razorback, and a Predator. 
Ideally, I would love to have models for covering all bases. 6 Rhinos for 6 Tactical in the troops space, Landraiders for Terminators in Elite as well as Rhinos/Razorbacks for Sternguard, Razorback for an HQ and Command squad... etc. Would be expensive but nice.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

So, getting back to the main topic, a Storm Raven is a BA heavy choice. In consideration of vanilla marines I'm going to run it as such, like a flying Landraider. Now, I realise that there are multiple options for the Raven but what seems to work best? Is there a particular 'go to' build? I'm sure I'll get differing answers which will be dependant on the build I intend for it.


----------



## Vaz

Arcane said:


> Sorry to bugger all you English blokes backing your comrade up. You can go back to sipping tea now lol


Go back to degrading and fucking ********. I really can't be arsed with your elitist bullshit anymore. Quit the bullshit, and admit that despite it "poms" sticking it together, we're a) still correct, b) not making illegal moves, and c) playing it how we want.

Leave the prejudicial bullshit at the door, because fuck me, you don't own the world anymore. *Limey?* Really, brilliant. Glad to see that the education that the rest of your halfbreed country paid towards is actually going towards some use.



> Maybe if you read the origins of the thread you would see that it was him telling us all how to play with our toy soldiers because evidently any tactic we suggest is far inferior to his. It must be considering he suggested holding all your units in reserve against a gun line army. It seems any straw is worth grasping at in order to assert one's superiority as a "Accomplished player". Thanks for the input though.


Read: *Whinge Whinge* I play how I want whether I win or lose therefore I reserve the right to sit on my morale high horse and insult you because I play whatever I want, rather actually choosing good units and using good tactics.

TLR - stop being a cunt.


----------



## Da Joka

Rems said:


> I did read the thread. An illegal tactic was put forward which TKE corrected and further elaborated on some of the faults of Storm Ravens, how to deal with them as an opponent and why the Grey Knight isn't as effective as the the Blood Angels one is.


Only TKE didn't correct the illegal tactic... he just bashed it and said what he'd do to counter it.

Arcane simply misread the rules. I don't think any of us can say that haven't done that at one point.

As for his bash on the English, who cares... its the internet, if you bash back your just gonna add fuel to the flame.


----------



## Archon Dan

Jace of Ultramar said:


> So, getting back to the main topic, a Storm Raven is a BA heavy choice. In consideration of vanilla marines I'm going to run it as such, like a flying Landraider. Now, I realise that there are multiple options for the Raven but what seems to work best? Is there a particular 'go to' build? I'm sure I'll get differing answers which will be dependant on the build I intend for it.


I prefer either the intense close ranged weapons or going for all long range. The missiles are more for attacks of opportunity(target not obscured) against AV 12 or less. The front gun starts as a TL Heavy Bolter but can become a TL Multi-melta(close range) for free or a Typhoon Missile Launcher(long range, can be defensive) for a moderate cost. The turret gun can be TL of the following, all for free Assault Cannon(close range), Plasma Cannon or Lascannon(long range). Lastly, you can give it Hurricane Bolter sponsons, but these are fairly expensive, though are a defensive weapon. Unfortunately, you'll not know what kind of army you're facing beforehand. Otherwise this can be geared for horde killing or anti-tank. A mix is helpful.

The long range version let's you approach gradually, firing shots on the move, weakening targets before deploying your assault cargo. It also means you can fire at targets across the field from where you drop off the assault unit(s) if necesary. The short range, barring the missiles, typically means you'll take a turn of flat out movement to get your guns and assault cargo in range the following turn. My last piece of advice would be to take extra armor. It isn't cheap but let's you keep moving those assault units closer and sitting still is never a good idea for a vehicle. Hope I was helpful.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Absolutely, Dan. More than infact. I'll have to keep the missiles in mind as I do not recall the GW site stating the kit comes with any. Does the TML replace the turret on the top?


----------



## Archon Dan

The Bloodstrike Missiles are represented under the wings but are not removable. So you have to keep track of the ones you fire. The Typhoon is an upgrade for the forward weapon, in place of what could be the Multi-melta or Heavy Bolter. So my combos typically are Missile Launcher and Lascannons or Multi-melta and Assault Cannons. Of course if points don't allow for the Missile Launcher, the Multi-melta, Lascannon option gives you more AT firepower.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Freakin Sweet


----------



## Boc

Stop the off topic bullshit that has no place in this thread or this forum.

Apologies for the delay.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Boc said:


> Stop the off topic bullshit that has no place in this thread or this forum.
> 
> Apologies for the delay.


Boc, I like that approach.


----------



## Da Joka

So for your one shot missiles, the Brass Knuckle I believe :grin: You should replace the tips with some closed Power Fist bits.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Da Joka said:


> So for your one shot missiles, the Brass Knuckle I believe :grin: You should replace the tips with some closed Power Fist bits.


Crap, I need more PF


----------



## Archon Dan

That would look pretty cool. I'm surprised Chaos Marine players haven't been swiping the Storm Raven and putting those dragon-headed turrets on them. That would be visually appealing too.


----------



## Fallen

Archon Dan said:


> That would look pretty cool. I'm surprised Chaos Marine players haven't been swiping the Storm Raven and putting those dragon-headed turrets on them. That would be visually appealing too.


Chaos Players generally have this thing called "respect" and unfortunately the Thunder Pigeon doesnt quite match our level...mainly because of its "amazing" visual appeal.

That and we got rules for the Chaos Storm Eagle which automatically equals WINNING...tiger blood may be optional...dignity not mandatory


----------



## Sakura_ninja

Chaos players spend too much time whining and complaining to actually build, convert and paint a chaos stormraven, and then they would moan that it sucks because its chaos, and nothing is worth putting in it and that it killed there cat and got there mom pregnant yadda yadda blah blah blah smackity smackity.

And don't say you wouldn't :biggrin::laugh:


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Sakura_ninja said:


> Chaos players spend too much time whining and complaining to actually build, convert and paint a chaos stormraven, and then they would moan that it sucks because its chaos, and nothing is worth putting in it and that it killed there cat and got there mom pregnant yadda yadda blah blah blah smackity smackity.
> 
> And don't say you wouldn't :biggrin::laugh:


Well, there's a remark that makes me happy I play vanilla marines.


----------



## Archon Dan

I think "chocolate" Marines will see some nasty new surprises in their next codex. True they don't get PotMS but I've seen Forge World rules with Infernal Machine, which is comparable if it got implemented more. But just from the stance that their forge worlds and Techmarines are not part of the Machine Cult, they should be more creative. Maybe that Storm Talon posted in the rumors section is only for Chaos as that seems to suit them; one man in control of so many weapons. But chances are that The Despoiler is pushing his forge worlds to create some truly nasty war machines for his 14th Black Crusade.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Part of the reason, perhaps, that Chaos have received so few Daemon Engine-y goodies in 40k is because they already have more units than half the other Codexes, what with Cult Troops, Summoned Daemons, Obliterators etc etc. They seem to get about two new units a time though, so we'll see I guess.

Vis-a-vis Stormravens, I would never NOT choose the Multi-Melta, AP1 is the best possible characteristic in the game, and it gives you much more in the way of tactical application.


----------



## MidnightSun

Sakura_ninja said:


> Chaos players spend too much time whining and complaining to actually build, convert and paint a chaos stormraven, and then they would moan that it sucks because its chaos, and nothing is worth putting in it and that it killed there cat and got there mom pregnant yadda yadda blah blah blah smackity smackity.
> 
> And don't say you wouldn't :biggrin::laugh:



Well, I do know a Chaos player who has a Stormraven. Looks badass.

Midnight


----------



## Arcane

Rems said:


> I did read the thread. An illegal tactic was put forward which TKE corrected and further elaborated on some of the faults of Storm Ravens, how to deal with them as an opponent and why the Grey Knight isn't as effective as the the Blood Angels one is.
> 
> Actually he didn't. Magpie did in another thread, so you must have missed most of what happened.
> 
> Also not English, as my flag clearly shows.
> 
> Aus are English, unless you haven't read your history books.
> 
> Reserving against a gun-line army is a valid tactic. If you have a mobile, high firepower army (which you should if you're attempting this tactic) then you can dictate where you come onto the board and what sections of your opponents army you engage. You can deal with his army one section at a time as he scrambles to relocate. Given that the board should have lots of terrain on it (and a good portion of that los blocking) the gun line shouldn't be able to blow the oncoming army of the board if it's placed correctly.
> 
> Of course on the table things can always go wrong, there are dice involved after all, but planning out a strategy and playing to averages seems like a good idea to me.
> 
> Statistically, unless you have an astropath, the numbers say you will lose. I thought we were trying to be realistic here and not rely on luck? We were talking in context of a GK shooting army, meaning anything in 24-36 is going to get annihilated by psybolts. Holding your army in reserve against it only negates your advantage of range, denies your heavy weapons squads from shooting and brings your units in slowly. As I've said, seen it happen in several tourneys and it always ends poorly for the reserving player.


Fixed that for ya.

Anyhow, with the flyers thing going on supposedly some time later this year might not be a bad idea to hold off on buying Stormravens if your short on cash. Although I doubt it, with every army getting flyers, there may be many other models worth taking/buying soon. Not to mention what other changes 6th ed could make to skimmers etc in general!


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

Arcane said:


> Aus are English, unless you haven't read you history books.


Yeh, that argument works really well for you, seeing as you're American. What's your point exactly?


----------



## Sakura_ninja

MidnightSun said:


> Well, I do know a Chaos player who has a Stormraven. Looks badass.
> 
> Midnight


Ewwwwww warseer *goes and brushes my eyes with wire wool*
The decimator was nice, the stormraven was....err....the decimator was nice



spanner94ezekiel said:


> Yeh, that argument works really well for you, seeing as you're American. What's your point exactly?


Maybe his point has something to do with kicking our ass during the American war of independence..........with help from the French.


----------



## MidnightSun

Stormraven looks a lot better in real life. The pictures he's taken are pretty bad.

Midnight


----------



## Archon Dan

Sakura_ninja said:


> Maybe his point has something to do with kicking our ass during the American war of independence..........with help from the French.


I know my high school teachers would have me believe differently, but I would hardly call it an ass kicking. In actuality, the American rebels lost a majority of the battles. Had England been so inclined, they could have crushed us. But I guess many wars are like that; a side may lose the majority of battles but win the really important ones.

I would just like to put out there that not all Americans are so close-minded and isolationist. Unfortunately, our least educated tend to talk the loudest. I'm actually quite embarrassed to be American around here some times as some of my fellow citizens make us all look rather ignorant. The world is moving ever closer together and we all need to think in global terms.



MidnightSun said:


> Well, I do know a Chaos player who has a Stormraven. Looks badass.
> 
> Midnight


I thought the Stormraven looked pretty good. It definitely looks Chaosy. The Decimater is good too. Still don't want to fight one though.


And to TKE. Yes, the Multi-melta is a must for the Stormraven, especially with it being a free upgrade. I rarely use the TML, but just wanted to cover it in my posts earlier. In friendly games and some local metas high AV vehicles may not be as common.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Archon Dan said:


> I know my high school teachers would have me believe differently, but I would hardly call it an ass kicking. In actuality, the American rebels lost a majority of the battles. Had England been so inclined, they could have crushed us. But I guess many wars are like that; a side may lose the majority of battles but win the really important ones.
> 
> I would just like to put out there that not all Americans are so close-minded and isolationist. Unfortunately, our least educated tend to talk the loudest. I'm actually quite embarrassed to be American around here some times as some of my fellow citizens make us all look rather ignorant. The world is moving ever closer together and we all need to think in global terms.


Well put Dan. However, I wouldn't allow myself to be embarrassed to be an American on here or any other forum. On a funny note I ran into some anti-american sentiment while in Europe but that changed for the better in an odd way when I said 'Yeah, but, I'm a Texan.'




Archon Dan said:


> I thought the Stormraven looked pretty good. It definitely looks Chaosy. The Decimater is good too. Still don't want to fight one though.
> And to TKE. Yes, the Multi-melta is a must for the Stormraven, especially with it being a free upgrade. I rarely use the TML, but just wanted to cover it in my posts earlier. In friendly games and some local metas high AV vehicles may not be as common.


Thank you gentlemen for the input thus far. I'll most likely add magnets to the Raven when that time comes.


----------



## Boc

spanner94ezekiel said:


> Yeh, that argument works really well for you, seeing as you're American. What's your point exactly?


I said cut that shit out. The thread has moved on, don't drag it back.


----------



## Vaz

boc, try addressing the demick who did. Theres a good chap. 

brb tea and crumpets are ready now the chaps are finished with their game of cricket. Then im off to get ready for my hunt before I plot yet another round of guess-the-ex-colonial. tally ho, chaps.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Yeah Boc, it wasn't Spanner wot brought it up again mate. Wotcha.


----------



## Archon Dan

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Well put Dan. However, I wouldn't allow myself to be embarrassed to be an American on here or any other forum. On a funny note I ran into some anti-american sentiment while in Europe but that changed for the better in an odd way when I said 'Yeah, but, I'm a Texan.'


That's probably because Texas has such an interesting history. Ohio's accomplishments kind of get over-shadowed. Everyone remembers the Wright Bros. flew at Kittyhawk SC, but few know they were from Ohio. Ohio's known for Cleveland setting their river on fire(3 times actually) and a "war" with Michigan over Toledo. The latter having devolved into an annual Football game that gets way too intense for college sports. 




Jace of Ultamar said:


> Thank you gentlemen for the input thus far. I'll most likely add magnets to the Raven when that time comes.


You actually don't have to magnetize the weapons. And I think that is one thing that GW has been doing right lately; having upgrades that are socketable and don't require glue/magnets.


----------



## Fallen

Archon Dan said:


> I know my high school teachers would have me believe differently, but I would hardly call it an ass kicking.Nope, We just made the British spend too much for too long that it wasn't worth going bankrupt over some colonies in the new world.
> 
> 
> I thought the Stormraven looked pretty good. It definitely looks Chaosy. The Decimater is good too. Still don't want to fight one though.


honestly i have no issues with Chaos getting a thunder pigeon, but just to use in a friendly game...not really (unless it can carry a defiler:laugh

the storm eagle is more along Chaos' play style anyways since it can hold 20 people...like 20 bezerkers...:biggrin:. although at that point i would much rather be able to transport 2 10-man units.


----------



## Da Joka

A bit more on subject, if I don't like the Ork Flier models, I'm going to kit bash a Battle Wagon and a Stromraven.


And Dan, Don't sell your state short... it's home to Ceder Point, and thus the best Roller Coasters in the world.


----------



## Arcane

Ohio's not bad, if not a bit boring. UK's not bad either but DE is usually much, much more fun. That said they are all probably more interesting than MI. 

Joka, maybe a Valkyrie would be a better sized model to fit a Ork flier? They look better imo.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Archon Dan said:


> That's probably because Texas has such an interesting history. Ohio's accomplishments kind of get over-shadowed. Everyone remembers the Wright Bros. flew at Kittyhawk SC, but few know they were from Ohio. Ohio's known for Cleveland setting their river on fire(3 times actually) and a "war" with Michigan over Toledo. The latter having devolved into an annual Football game that gets way too intense for college sports.


In my estimation, college sports is intense all the time. Aggies and Longhorns fans will affirm that if you check out ESPN at the right moment and time. As for Toledo, Ohio... I hear its a hilarious John Denver song. For the record, I did know (before your post) that the Wright Bros. were from Ohio. I've spent a fair share of time in Dayton working an odd job at Wright Patt AFB. As for Texas history being interesting... no arguments there from me.

Back to the Raven. No magnets? The pieces will seriously just interchange without problems? Sweet. Next thing I know someone will mention making bricks without straw! :shok:


----------



## Archon Dan

Fallen said:


> honestly i have no issues with Chaos getting a thunder pigeon, but just to use in a friendly game...not really (unless it can carry a defiler:laugh
> 
> the storm eagle is more along Chaos' play style anyways since it can hold 20 people...like 20 bezerkers...:biggrin:. although at that point i would much rather be able to transport 2 10-man units.


Twenty Berserkers with a means to quickly cross the table and not be shot to pieces! That's a very scary possibility. As for the Storm Raven carrying a Defiler, only if it has to take a dangerous terrain test every turn that fails on a 1-3 for carrying such a heavy load. :grin:



Da Joka said:


> A bit more on subject, if I don't like the Ork Flier models, I'm going to kit bash a Battle Wagon and a Stromraven.
> 
> 
> And Dan, Don't sell your state short... it's home to Ceder Point, and thus the best Roller Coasters in the world.


Very true.  And in addition to Cedar Point there is King's Island too. I find both very enjoyable.



Arcane said:


> Ohio's not bad, if not a bit boring. UK's not bad either but DE is usually much, much more fun. That said they are all probably more interesting than MI.
> 
> Joka, maybe a Valkyrie would be a better sized model to fit a Ork flier? They look better imo.


Dark Eldar are fun ... if you're a sadist, murderer or rapist. :laugh::wink: And if you meant Deleware, my apologies for the comparison. Please don't whack me.



Jace of Ultramar said:


> In my estimation, college sports is intense all the time. Aggies and Longhorns fans will affirm that if you check out ESPN at the right moment and time. As for Toledo, Ohio... I hear its a hilarious John Denver song. For the record, I did know (before your post) that the Wright Bros. were from Ohio. I've spent a fair share of time in Dayton working an odd job at Wright Patt AFB. As for Texas history being interesting... no arguments there from me.
> 
> Back to the Raven. No magnets? The pieces will seriously just interchange without problems? Sweet. Next thing I know someone will mention making bricks without straw! :shok:


Wright Patt is another awesome place to visit, assuming you like history and museums. Come to think of it, for those in the know, Ohio has a lot. Just in terms of national and global identity there isn't much here. And I would mention such a thing but I don't wish you to have a heart attack. They're bad for you.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Archon Dan said:


> Wright Patt is another awesome place to visit, assuming you like history and museums. Come to think of it, for those in the know, Ohio has a lot. Just in terms of national and global identity there isn't much here. And I would mention such a thing but I don't wish you to have a heart attack. They're bad for you.


Yeah, that's what I hear.

So, the Raven can interchange without problem? Nice. On a side note I found this interesting pic of a Crimson Fists Stormraven today.


----------



## SGMAlice

Jace of Ultramar said:


> On a side note I found this interesting pic of a Crimson Fists Stormraven today.


Careful Jace, you'll set them off again 

Alice


----------



## TheKingElessar

Eh. It needs detailing to break up the wings, maybe Chapter and Company markings. Also, the top turret should be red.


----------



## Vaz

Why? It'll look like a Blue Tommy Cooper.

Edit: Just answered my own question.


----------



## SGMAlice

TheKingElessar said:


> Also, the top turret should be red.


See what i mean  :laugh:


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

SGMAlice said:


> Careful Jace, you'll set them off again
> 
> Alice


Yeah, so not trying to set anything off. I agree with TKE that the turret needs some red and there need to be chapter badges. Thankfully I have plenty of fist shaped badges in my bits box.


----------



## TheKingElessar

I was thinking a freehand - I think the wing size is probably too big for the ones, for instance, from the Land Speeder kit.


----------



## SGMAlice

TheKingElessar said:


> I was thinking a freehand - I think the wing size is probably too big for the ones, for instance, from the Land Speeder kit.


I have seen several Storm Pigeons done using the Brass ones from Forgeworld 

Alice


----------



## Vaz

I missed the "bitz" out of "bitz box" and wondered exactly what you do to yourself to get them stuck there. But there you go.


----------



## TheKingElessar

SGMAlice said:


> I have seen several Storm Pigeons done using the Brass ones from Forgeworld
> 
> Alice


That was my next suggestion. :biggrin:


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Vaz said:


> I missed the "bitz" out of "bitz box" and wondered exactly what you do to yourself to get them stuck there. But there you go.


:shok: I don't recall mentioning anything about Gentlemen's Vegetables.

However, I will use 'z' as much as possible from now on.

The bitz I have are the pewter ones from GW.


----------



## Arcane

Archon Dan said:


> Dark Eldar are fun ... if you're a sadist, murderer or rapist. :laugh::wink: And if you meant Deleware, my apologies for the comparison. Please don't whack me.


Actually I meant Deutschland. Having spent months in both I found it to be more fun over all and only ran into one rude German while there. Being a bit drunk I walked up and called him a Nazi and told him to shut up, which he did (funny thing was he was actually dressed similarly to one too). Wonder if I will run into him again when I head back later this week. 

In the note of the Stormraven, they just look so short for their considerable width! The Chapterhouse extender is a must have imo.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Arcane said:


> In the note of the Stormraven, they just look so short for their considerable width! The Chapterhouse extender is a must have imo.


Wait, there's a Chapter House component?


----------



## Arcane

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Wait, there's a Chapter House component?



http://chapterhousestudios.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=85_78&product_id=200


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Freakin sweet. Yeah, that looks like a must. After reading your post earlier I went to Chapter House's site and checked it out but I didn't see these awesome pics. Thank-you very much Arcane.


----------



## Archon Dan

Wish I'd seen the extender way back when I first got my Stormraven. But I got it pretty close to release and that may not have existed yet. The extender does make it look much better but does anybody know how it balances on the flying stand? Mine is already borderline tail heavy.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Sorry, for me the extender turns a sow's ear into a dog's breakfast.


----------



## Sakura_ninja

That extender really improves a poor model, that's cool.


----------



## SGMAlice

I don't care for the CH Extender (Just Me?) It makes the Storm Pigeon look even worse that it already is. Too Long, i think, thats whats wrong, Its too Too Long.

Alice


----------



## Magpie_Oz

SGMAlice said:


> I don't care for the CH Extender (Just Me?) It makes the Storm Pigeon look even worse that it already it. Too Long, i think, thats whats wrong, Its too Too Long.
> 
> Alice


No not just you, when I look at it all I can think of is VW Combi-van not Svelte Predator from the sky !


----------



## SGMAlice

Magpie_Oz said:


> No not just you, when I look at it all I can think of is VW Combi-van not Svelte Predator from the sky !


Indeed; I'll take 'Bullpup' over 'Sausage Dog', any day.

Alice


----------



## Da Joka

I like the Extender, My only problem is where does the Dreadnaught go now?


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

I think I'll have both the bullpup and sausage dog. It looks nice but on reflection I think I'll go without it. An additional $20 US on top of the $66 the Raven is already priced at makes for an expensive model, no to mention I also like the Chapter House turret they make for the Raven.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Da Joka said:


> I like the Extender, My only problem is where does the Dreadnaught go now?


Like most VW Combi vans it will go in the front under the bonnet.


----------



## Vaz

I always hated the idea of the Magna grabbers. Always felt it should be like the Assault Ramp in a Thunderhawk - if only facing backwards, like a) modern helo's/tilt rotors b) very other flyer excepting the THawk is done.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Vaz said:


> I always hated the idea of the Magna grabbers.


Maybe there should be a rule for the Gk Dreads who have silver in their armour, which isn't magnetic .............


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Magpie_Oz said:


> Maybe there should be a rule for the Gk Dreads who have silver in their armour, which isn't magnetic .............


I almost prefer there to be a claw, like in the arcades where you try to pull a stuffed 'something' out as a prize.


----------



## Archon Dan

When I got my Stormraven and had assembled the primary hull, I had a funny thought. I almost did not attach the wings, considering giving it helicopter rotors. It has the look of a helicopter without its wings and flies similarly. I ultimately decided against this for fear it would look Orkish. And seeing as the Dreadnought is carried outside, it should be able to fire at things behind the Stormraven. Though I guess that would either make the Dreadnought itself target-able or treat the rear arc of the Stormraven as open-topped.


----------



## jaysen

helicopter rotors wouldn't work too well for re-entry atmospheric friction.


----------



## Arcane

Actually now that you mention it, an Apache type mod would probably look much better on a Storm Raven. Hmmm....


----------



## TheKingElessar

Get to ze Choppa!


----------



## Jace of Ultramar




----------



## Archon Dan

jaysen said:


> helicopter rotors wouldn't work too well for re-entry atmospheric friction.


True. One of the other reasons I didn't do it.



TheKingElessar said:


> Get to ze Choppa!





Jace of Ultramar said:


>


LOL. Thanks guys.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Archon Dan said:


> When I got my Stormraven and had assembled the primary hull, I had a funny thought. I almost did not attach the wings, considering giving it helicopter rotors. It has the look of a helicopter without its wings and flies similarly. I ultimately decided against this for fear it would look Orkish. And seeing as the Dreadnought is carried outside, it should be able to fire at things behind the Stormraven. Though I guess that would either make the Dreadnought itself target-able or treat the rear arc of the Stormraven as open-topped.


I like the ducted rotors in the winds, kinda like they had in Avatar.


----------



## TheKingElessar

The rumoured Storm Eagle (wait, that can't be it's name...) looks like in Avatar.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Storm Talon? That looks shitty as well.

I like the Starcraft Dropships.

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Medivac_dropship

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/AH/G-24_Banshee


----------



## Tawa

TheKingElessar said:


> Get to ze Choppa!


Do it! Do it now!


----------



## TheKingElessar

Eh, that Banshee looks okay, but don't like the Medivac. Prefer the Hornet from Halo.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Years ago there was a boat racing game at a local arcade called Hydro Thunder. There was a particular speed boat called Banshee that I always thought would make a good flying vehicle... As well as the '99-'02 Firebird.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Was it based on Hulk Hogan show Thunder in Paradise?


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

TheKingElessar said:


> Was it based on Hulk Hogan show Thunder in Paradise?


Nope, not at all. This was just a boat racing game. It was a lot of fun from what I remember, so much that I bought it when it came out on the original Play Station.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Is there a price increase coming our way from GW? If ai does anyone know when? I'm curious if I should not put off picking up a Raven or two.


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

Yes, June.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Grief. How much?


----------



## Sakura_ninja

Too much, and enough to put the final nail in the coffin for fantasy I would wager.


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

There's a thread somewhere (can't find it/be arsed to), but it's between 15 and 25% IIRC.


----------



## Sakura_ninja

That's too much surely, even for gw to ask, especially the 25.


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=111002

That's the thread: the details are in there somewhere.


----------



## Sakura_ninja

Oh, that thread, I was worried for a moment it might have evidence to back up claims.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Well, reason I ask is a reference mini wargaming mentioned about saving before the increasr in a Facebook post today.


----------



## Archon Dan

If you have the money now and are worried, get them now. I don't know that they'll get as expensive as $82 USD but they will go up. Damn annual increase.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Ditto, price increase suck


----------



## Da Joka

Jace of Ultramar said:


>


Ork Boy: But Boss I got me Choppa righ' 'ere...


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Da Joka said:


> Ork Boy: But Boss I got me Choppa righ' 'ere...


Dood, that so inspires me to make Orks the army that I do after my Fists


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

Well, price increase not withstanding, I'm going today to pick up my Raven. I better get it while the getting is good. I think I'll also order some of the new Finecast while I'm at it along with some other odds and ends.

On another note, is the Chapter House mod permissable in regular gaming? I'm just curious about the ratio bit on that.


----------



## spanner94ezekiel

I think the rules for tournies is at least 50% GWS. In friendlies/most competitive games it's fine as you're simply modifying a GW kit, and still using it for its original purpose.


----------



## Jace of Ultramar

spanner94ezekiel said:


> I think the rules for tournies is at least 50% GWS. In friendlies/most competitive games it's fine as you're simply modifying a GW kit, and still using it for its original purpose.


Ok, good to know. In the event that I use with a 'dex that has a Raven, later down the line, I'd like to make sure its still usable. I'll ask my GW manager for good measure as well.


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## Jace of Ultramar

Seriously? My GW opens at 2???? Well, my LGS just got richer.


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