# Whats wrong with people?



## The Gunslinger (Apr 4, 2011)

Hi all
Iv recently started Warhammer, and recently joined this forum.
Now there are some brilliant tacticas, tutorials and a lot of useful stuff
But having said that it seems that half of this forum is just full of people complaining, (yes im aware of the irony here)
I don’t understand why everyone is having a hissy fit about how expensive it all is, yea that’s life, everything you want is expensive from food, rent to dvd’s and miniatures, that’s why people have jobs
And then everyone is trying to class armies based on how good they are etc, im pretty sure they are designed to be the same level as best they could
Pretty much this rant is coming up because im just loosing patience with this sight, every day there is a new thread complaining about price increases or embargos, if you don’t like it, don’t play the hobby, simples.
Lets restore heresy online to its former glory where people create threads to talk about helpful things, not to satisfy their need to bitch and moan
Thanks


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

It seems to be only a recent thing, just in the last few days.

It was just that all 3 things happened at the same time (metal to resin, price increases, and screwing over the southern hemisphere).

Give it another week and i am sure that the anti-GW discussion will decrease back to the normal amount.


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

whats wrong with people?

people are dicks.

its a king said, all this bad news has come in a very short time period, give it a couple of weeks and people will more than likely start making decent threads again ;P


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Like KOC said, a lot of people have been shafted in the past week, and whilst it's all good and well to say 'if you don't like it, don't play', it's understandable to expect some sort of reaction when the cost of playing your army has gone up by such a magnitude.

Some of our aussie members can only really afford to field their armies by ordering from UK sites, and now they're apparently taking this away and raising prices, alongside more expensive resin models. Australian gamers could well be paying more than twice what those in the UK are for exactly the same army.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Varakir said:


> Like KOC said, a lot of people have been shafted in the past week, and whilst it's all good and well to say 'if you don't like it, don't play', it's understandable to expect some sort of reaction when the cost of playing your army has gone up by such a magnitude.
> 
> Some of our aussie members can only really afford to field their armies by ordering from UK sites, and now they're apparently taking this away and raising prices, alongside more expensive resin models. Australian gamers could well be paying more than twice what those in the UK are for exactly the same army.


This Gunslinger. This is why we`re pissed. :angry:


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

If you think the complaints on here are bad, you should see them on WargamerAU.

People on there are going into epic-rage over it all.


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## The Gunslinger (Apr 4, 2011)

I sympathise, I really do, but at the same time complaining on here isn’t going to do anything is it?
Create a petition; write angry letters, the only people that should be hearing about your displeasure is gw, not us


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Meh, I say let them moan, don't let the moaning distract you from the brilliance of the majority of Heresy


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## 1Foxman (Jan 30, 2011)

Varakir said:


> Like KOC said, a lot of people have been shafted in the past week, and whilst it's all good and well to say 'if you don't like it, don't play', it's understandable to expect some sort of reaction when the cost of playing your army has gone up by such a magnitude.
> 
> Some of our aussie members can only really afford to field their armies by ordering from UK sites, and now they're apparently taking this away and raising prices, alongside more expensive resin models. Australian gamers could well be paying more than twice what those in the UK are for exactly the same army.


No we _*already*_ pay more than double for our armies, before leaving my full time job to go back to college i had no problems inpulse buying hundreds of dollars of models, i then moved to buying if from the uk but thats over. Now working part time i can only buy models every so often and have been told unless i buy product from my local store i cant work on it in store, funny thing is i have spent 5 armies worth in the store but only half an army from maelstrom. 

An extra $5 isnt a problem but when you start paying $114+ for a valkerie or nearly $50 for a plastic cadian box it just becomes plain rude considering that is double what others pay, i guess its our fault for continously buying product during their lets see how much these stupid loyal aussie customers will buy our products for and use them as guinne pigs.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Ultra111 said:


> Meh, I say let them moan, don't let the moaning distract you from the brilliance of the majority of Heresy


Yes, just ignore us Gunslinger. After all, it`s not like the Heretics outside the UK have any legitimate reason to be moaning about anything. 

Oh wait, that`s right...


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## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

because that the fun of it. You don't watch a football game and say "Well there are all playing well, i don't care who wins as sport wins here" No you swear at the ref and claim for grandma could make that shot. It's jsut human nature


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

There is a perceptual bias in the OP's thesis.

We have nearly 30,000 members of which several hundred might visit the site on any day. Without counting number of posters in the threads, tens rather than hundreds of those active members post in complaining threads. Whilst there is a vocal minority who are posting repeatedly in more than one thread, taken as a proportion of the total use of the site they are a small proportion of the regular usage.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

The Gunslinger said:


> I sympathise, I really do, but at the same time complaining on here isn’t going to do anything is it?
> Create a petition; write angry letters, the only people that should be hearing about your displeasure is gw, not us


Actually, people are. There's a number of blogs working on form letters to send in, expressing our distaste. May I suggest people join in?

I must agree, there have been a significant number of bitchthreads going on recently, even before these recent resin/price hike/buttfucking the southern hemisphere shenanigans. However, as Dave said, if you look closely it's pretty much the same people. If it really bothers you, just add those individuals to your ignore list.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

The Gunslinger said:


> Hi all
> Iv recently started Warhammer, and recently joined this forum.
> Now there are some brilliant tacticas, tutorials and a lot of useful stuff
> But having said that it seems that half of this forum is just full of people complaining, (yes im aware of the irony here)
> ...


*Polite telling off voice on*

I can assume from this attitude that I can expect a cheque in the mail from you to subsidize my hobby then? Because guess what buddy thats what us folks down south have been doing to you for the past 5 or 6 years and we are getting a little tired of it. Maybe its about time you returned the favor? 

If you aren't willing to do that then maybe you should take your own advice. The reasons forums are around is to discuss these issues as and when they come up. You don't like the fact that people are unhappy then how about discussing with them why that is rather than just telling them to be quiet and to stop ruining your rather fairytale view of the world. If you don't want to do that (which from the quoted post you evidently aren't) guess what you take your own advice and mimic your good friends in GW management and stick your head in the sand. 

Harsh? Yes maybe but so is telling people half a world away to shut up and bend over when you aren't on the receiving end anywhere near as much as they are which is basically what you are doing.



The Gunslinger said:


> I sympathise, I really do, but at the same time complaining on here isn’t going to do anything is it?
> Create a petition; write angry letters, the only people that should be hearing about your displeasure is gw, not us


Really? Do you? Got a funny way of showing it, telling people to shut up and all. Sympathy would be you are offering to buy from Maelstorm or Wayland on behalf of people down here and ship it for no mark up of your own. But I somehow doubt your going to be doing that are you? Might just be me but it kinda seems like you are displaying the exact opposite of sympathy. As for not cluttering up your beloved forum with our apparently unwarranted whinging? How else are we going to organize the petitions and angry letters you aforementioned? Telepathy? You object to the amount of it? Too bad, it'll pass in time, take your own advice and live with it (and before you suggest that I do the same with GW prices, one thing - while the current level of vocal opposition to GW's sales policys will decline in time - the policys themselves won't - so save it)

You yourself are a customer of Maelstorm Games... you are can hardly take the moral high ground and tell people off for wanting to get things as cheap as they can. Lucky for you that Maelstorm can still do business in the UK, where even prices at full RRP are a lot cheaper than down South. Next time you want to get shitty at people walk a mile in their shoes and see how you feel.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Ease up a bit guys.

The complaints about GW are expected. Discussing them is good.
It is an issue that needs to be discussed.

However, i have actually noticed that there are multiple threads now that all cover the same arguments. I have actually been tempted to consolidate some, but i wont.

I am quite happy for people to complain about GW as much as they like, as long as all complaints stay in the currently existing threads rather than creating new ones.

I think what the OP was annoyed with was that there are multiple threads that all cover the same thing (complaining about GW).


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

> *Polite telling off voice on*
> 
> I can assume from this attitude that I can expect a cheque in the mail from you to subsidize my hobby then? Because guess what buddy thats what us folks down south have been doing to you for the past 5 or 6 years and we are getting a little tired of it. Maybe its about time you returned the favor?
> 
> ...


 :goodpost: 

+Rep


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## slaaneshy (Feb 20, 2008)

Gunslinger - if you don't like a thread....don't read it!


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

YEAH lets complain about other people complaining


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

Ranting and raving is just a way vent the stress out and keep many of us here form letting out our anger towards those we love most. I'm guilty of pissin and moanin as much as anyone else on this site. But hey at least on here we have an outlet for this sort of thing. Also as said before we had hug string of terrible news all one day. As the saying goes when it rains it pours and well this time I'de say we just had a flash flood.


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

JAMOB said:


> YEAH lets complain about other people complaining


oh no! youve created a black hole!

bloody black holes, ive had enough of them.

;P


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## The Gunslinger (Apr 4, 2011)

Jacobite said:


> I can assume from this attitude that I can expect a cheque in the mail from you to subsidize my hobby then? Because guess what buddy thats what us folks down south have been doing to you for the past 5 or 6 years and we are getting a little tired of it. Maybe its about time you returned the favor?
> 
> If you aren't willing to do that then maybe you should take your own advice. The reasons forums are around is to discuss these issues as and when they come up. You don't like the fact that people are unhappy then how about discussing with them why that is rather than just telling them to be quiet and to stop ruining your rather fairytale view of the world. If you don't want to do that (which from the quoted post you evidently aren't) guess what you take your own advice and mimic your good friends in GW management and stick your head in the sand.
> 
> ...


For a start, iv only recently started the hobby so you havnt been doing anything for me, so save it
secondly, i work long hours five nights a week so i can barely cover rent and still have some money left to do the things i want to do, so as for my fairytale view of the world you can stick it up your ass.
tell you what, if you really want to discuss things then go ahead, i dont mind aslong as its productive
and yes i am going to tell you to live with it, either that or move, or stop playing the hobby, or maybe just stick with what you have? 

and finally to round things off in a real polite way, i do have sympathy to anyone who deserves it, you buddy, well i dont think you do, so stop waisting my time


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## OpTi (Aug 29, 2009)

thought i'd just work out what your own army wound cost you if you were in thier position. It works out you'd be out of pocket an extra £113 based on GW's prices, if you now say buy from an online retailer you save an extra 10-20% increasing the gap to £127(10%) - £142(20%) i don't know about you but i find that fucking ridiculous beyond belief and you think they should just shut up and accept it?

I'd also like to point out your own hypocrisy with making a rant thread about people ranting when you could've just used one of the threads and simply asked someone, but don't be a dick and say that people should just shut up accept it when it doesn't even affect you personally, especially when we're talking about paying nearly double what you yourself have to pay.

Lastly the forum is for any discussion including complaints relating to the hobby. Seeing as the recent announcements have large implications for many people(anyone outside the UK/EU) it is reflected in the number of posts about this issue, indicating it is currently a hot topic for discussion. If you don't wish to partake in this discussion maybe click on anyone of the other threads and discuss something else.


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## Abomination (Jul 6, 2008)

People will always be complaining. Just the way it is now. We just have to accept it.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Yes, just ignore us Gunslinger. After all, it`s not like the Heretics outside the UK have any legitimate reason to be moaning about anything.
> 
> Oh wait, that`s right...


What I mean was he said he was on the verge of leaving, I was basically saying "don't leave as there are so many aspects of heresy that are awesome".

I haven't looked at the price hike as I haven't done anything 40k related in the past few months, but apparently you lot have to pay more than I would, which isn't fair.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

So, the tin used to make metal models was £24,000 per metric tonne
The new resin is £2,000 per metric tonne
They announce the switch in material with a price _increase_ for customers.

Negative rep to the OP, and if I were close enough to slap him, I would.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> So, the tin used to make metal models was £24,000 per metric tonne
> The new resin is £2,000 per metric tonne
> They announce the switch in material with a price _increase_ for customers.
> .


Nice little 'lie by omission'.

In some sources they have already said that the new casting process involves replacing the molds FAR more often and that it is far more of a 'traditional' casting method - which means it is less automated which means it needs more people.

Therefore the cost of materials is only a small part of the over all cost of production, as it is with any product.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

Jacobite said:


> I can expect a cheque in the mail from you to subsidize my hobby then? Because guess what buddy thats what us folks down south have been doing to you for the past 5 or 6 years


Please continue to subsidize my hobby - in fact could you please buy more merch? Here in Canada we pay $5-$15 more than our close neighbours to the south for the same boxes of plastic & incase you haven't been paying attention our dollar is worth more than theirs (wouldn't blame you if you weren't following our currency - what's an AU$ worth anyways? 3, maybe 4 chickens?) Again - in Canada I pay $16.99 (CDN) for a paperback novel whereas the same novel sells in the same store in the states for $9.99 (USD) - first glance we're paying $6.00 more - BUT our $ is worth more so we're actually paying like $6.50 more. Fact of life.

Prices vary from region to region based on a variety of sources, from shipping costs, to government import tariffs, to the cost of labor. While I'm certainly not defending GW for apparently gouging you guys you just have to accept that the "fairy tale" world you mention in your own post doesn't exist. Harsh as it sounds, you either accept it or move on.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

clever handle said:


> Please continue to subsidize my hobby - in fact could you please buy more merch? Here in Canada we pay $5-$15 more than our close neighbours to the south for the same boxes of plastic & incase you haven't been paying attention our dollar is worth more than theirs (wouldn't blame you if you weren't following our currency - what's an AU$ worth anyways? 3, maybe 4 chickens?) Again - in Canada I pay $16.99 (CDN) for a paperback novel whereas the same novel sells in the same store in the states for $9.99 (USD) - first glance we're paying $6.00 more - BUT our $ is worth more so we're actually paying like $6.50 more. Fact of life.
> 
> Prices vary from region to region based on a variety of sources, from shipping costs, to government import tariffs, to the cost of labor. While I'm certainly not defending GW for apparently gouging you guys you just have to accept that the "fairy tale" world you mention in your own post doesn't exist. Harsh as it sounds, you either accept it or move on.


as a fellow canadian i can not say your wrong, but you also have to remember that alot of our prices were set at the time when our dollar was alot weaker then the american dollar. because of that, and the greed of the companies, they prices are not going to magically change to be far different due to the currency changing to be in our favor for once.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> So, the tin used to make metal models was £24,000 per metric tonne
> The new resin is £2,000 per metric tonne
> They announce the switch in material with a price _increase_ for customers.
> 
> Negative rep to the OP, and if I were close enough to slap him, I would.


I'm sure this was pointed out somewhere else, but making the switch from metal to resin isn't as simple as flipping a switch. They would need new molds, new manufacturing equipment, and new training to cast the new resin.

It would be a massive investment for GW to make that switch, so I can understand the price increase.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

clever handle said:


> Prices vary from region to region based on a variety of sources, from shipping costs, to government import tariffs, to the cost of labor. While I'm certainly not defending GW for apparently gouging you guys you just have to accept that the "fairy tale" world you mention in your own post doesn't exist. Harsh as it sounds, you either accept it or move on.


Just to add emphasis to that - the same thing works the other way around in the UK. We may get GW toys cheaper than most other countries, but all you have to do is look at itunes where a song is 99C or 99p despite the fact that 99c is about 60p.

Tis a fact of life that we just accept, or dont buy anything.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

When Mantic switched to resin their prices went down by 50%.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> When Mantic switched to resin their prices went down by 50%.


Was it the same sort of resin as GW?

Was the cost of the materials the driving factor in their prices?

What was their casting process like before hand?

How frequently did they replace their molds with the previous technique?


There are a hundred other questions I could ask there, and until you know the answers to them you are simply comparing two completely unknown variables.


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

If the data on the price difference between metal and resin is close to accurate then I would hope they could make up the hardware change over investment quickly. With that said if the data is true they likely didn't need as large of an increase. The problem is that now that its elevated it will likely never go down. So once they make up the the new changeover expenses their profits are likely to go up even more.


Doc


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Man, so many negative vibes going on here......people need to like, chill out..
I understand where the OP's coming from, but it's a lot harder to imagine the scale of things when it doesn't affect you so bad. Not that that is an excuse, because I frankly agree with all you Aussies. Still can we not take it out on the OP, because he raises a valid point that in the end we will just have to deal with it in our own ways.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

KhainiteAssassin said:


> as a fellow canadian i can not say your wrong, but you also have to remember that alot of our prices were set at the time when our dollar was alot weaker then the american dollar. because of that, and the greed of the companies, they prices are not going to magically change to be far different due to the currency changing to be in our favor for once.


that of course is another factor - our market is used to paying a certain price. Now that our dollar is stronger on the international market we don't see that reflected in the cost of our imported goods - it does however mean that other nations are more prepared to sell to us as at a certain price they generate more profit (locally):


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## The Gunslinger (Apr 4, 2011)

Look I think this has gotten out of hand, all I wanted to do was try and get people to stop complaining and get back to the good parts of the hobby.
The point is we could sit here and argue all day about this, but that would be the complete opposite of my intent. 
Also I would like to publicly apologise to jacobite I may have been out of line in my reply, I know im not going through the same thing you are, and I really do sympathise, but there are so many great things to this hobby, I hope everyone can remember these things and hopefully that will help them get passed the price increase and other problems.

Again im sorry for everyone who I have obviously offended, really not what I meant to do.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

The Gunslinger said:


> For a start, iv only recently started the hobby so you havnt been doing anything for me, so save it
> secondly, i work long hours five nights a week so i can barely cover rent and still have some money left to do the things i want to do, so as for my fairytale view of the world you can stick it up your ass.
> tell you what, if you really want to discuss things then go ahead, i dont mind aslong as its productive
> and yes i am going to tell you to live with it, either that or move, or stop playing the hobby, or maybe just stick with what you have?
> ...


Validation of my point. 

@ Cleverhandle: my apologies my friend, Canada has also been on the receiving end for years as you mentioned, i should have made that exception in my post.


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## clever handle (Dec 14, 2009)

I'm not complaining about canadian economics. It is unfortunate but it is a fact of life that will not change. I buy media, minis, coffee & beer when I can afford to - I happen to have a pretty great job where I earn a decent paycheck. Because of that I'm able to afford to do the things I want, my fixed expenses account for approx 55% of my income - that being said I've purchased (3) armies in as many years. In Canada your average 1700-2000 pt 40K army costs between $500 & $700 (before paint & brushes & basing supplies; but including models, codex & army case) that works out to about $60 / month which is about 1.5 boxes of troops, or one vehicle - that is about all I can paint anyways so I find its pretty much perfect.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

clever handle said:


> $60 / month which is about 1.5 boxes of troops, or one vehicle - that is about all I can paint anyways so I find its pretty much perfect.


 
Out of interrest, and not knowing enough about canada, could you give me some examples like - how much a cinema ticket is, a hockey game, DVD, computer game.

Im just interrested to see how it compares (well obviously id be comparing hockey to football...)


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Just to add emphasis to that - the same thing works the other way around in the UK. We may get GW toys cheaper than most other countries, but all you have to do is look at itunes where a song is 99C or 99p despite the fact that 99c is about 60p.
> 
> Tis a fact of life that we just accept, or dont buy anything.


Not all of us in Canada or America listen to Justin Beaver or care about music. The whole World Trade Center thing, War on Terror, Soicial Security disappering, New BS Health Care Bill, skyrocketing Undeployment, Welfare that Tax Payers have to pay for, and Illegal Immagrents working jobs with NO green card makes 99c a possible dinner. After being in Greece and Italy for a time I feel America not long behind them. It suks.



Maidel said:


> Out of interrest, and not knowing enough about canada, could you give me some examples like - how much a cinema ticket is, a hockey game, DVD, computer game.
> 
> Im just interrested to see how it compares (well obviously id be comparing hockey to football...)


I dont know how my north neibors are doing... I belive it aint to far off from us.
Movie Theater Ticket is like 13 bucks! Thats food for a day. A Foosball Game (Americas new pasttime) cost like 70 to 120 bucks!!! DVDs are dirt cheap... after a few years... thank you Wal Mart. CPU games are very affordable thru Steam. As for the pound its worth nearly 2 of our Dollars. Your twice as rich as I am in the Global Market. 

I see the OP made this thread with a point that was not only stinful but blew up with the current events going on. So Ill leave any comment out of this thread.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> Your twice as rich as I am in the Global Market.


But, im sorry to say, thats simply not the case.

Average wage in the USA is $40,000 which works out at the current exchange rate as £24,000. The average wage in the UK is £22,000 - that means that on average Americans earn £2,000 more than people in the UK.

I hate the way economics works - but thems the facts.


EDIT - my UK figure was a bit out of date, £18,000 is the median income, but the mean income is £22,000.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> So, the tin used to make metal models was £24,000 per metric tonne
> The new resin is £2,000 per metric tonne
> They announce the switch in material with a price _increase_ for customers.
> 
> Negative rep to the OP, and if I were close enough to slap him, I would.


OK so you know what type of resin they are using? Because last I checked there are dozens of different types of resin they could choose from.

Second swapping from centrifugal pewter casting machines where they can cast 10 -50 miniatures per minute and reuse miscasts to a hard poured resin system where the molds wear out much quicker, can not reuse miscasts, can only cast 1 model per mold every several minutes (5-7 drying), you must vacuum mold to stop air bubbles, take time to mix the resin, required use of mold release (which is not cheap).

The cost of the raw materials may be less, but the labor that goes into the new resin system or resin molding in general is very very very intensive.

+rep to the OP because you want to be an asshole and neg rep for simply asking why everyone was suddenly complaining. Be glad I am not an asshole who neg reps.

EDIT: I agree with the OP. The ONLY people who should complain right now are the players down south, they are truly getting the bone. The rest of the people QQing about the price increase need to deal with it or quit.


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## Malferion (Mar 9, 2011)

The Blood God supports your anger!!
But in all seriousness, GW is being a total douche to Australia at the moment, so give the Aussies a break haters.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

I find the price increase rather funny, us Canadians have been paying more then Americans for years yet its mostly Americans & the Britz complaining =/ only ones that can bitch about this are the people that where already paying more then anyone else. (If you don't like it go play warmachine)


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Azkaellon said:


> I find the price increase rather funny, us Canadians have been paying more then Americans for years yet its mostly Americans & the Britz complaining =/ only ones that can bitch about this are the people that where already paying more then anyone else. (If you don't like it go play warmachine)


Yes but for a long time the Canadian dollar was less then the US dollar and the difference made sense. Now a days though they should just make it the same price.

I do find it odd that the Brits and Americans are the ones who I have seen bitch the most. Like I have said before, I really feel for the Aussies and the folks down south.


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## KhainiteAssassin (Mar 18, 2009)

djinn24 said:


> Yes but for a long time the Canadian dollar was less then the US dollar and the difference made sense. Now a days though they should just make it the same price.
> 
> I do find it odd that the Brits and Americans are the ones who I have seen bitch the most. Like I have said before, I really feel for the Aussies and the folks down south.


i feel for us and the aussies cuz both of us were effected by the bs restrictions. and price hikes the most  XD


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## The Gunslinger (Apr 4, 2011)

ok so i think things have calmed down abit now which is good :victory:
again im sorry that i came across insensitive


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## The Gunslinger (Apr 4, 2011)

On a personal note, this is defently the most responces iv had from a thread iv started :biggrin:


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

The Gunslinger said:


> On a personal note, this is defently the most responces iv had from a thread iv started :biggrin:


Easy to repeat - start a thread that is in one way or another controversial and watch the people flock in.

:victory:


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

@ Maidel - I think $40,000 sounds high for an average US income. How was that calculated in your source, median or mean? 

It might be the correct mean, but I suspect it might be high by about 5-7k on the median, unless maybe we're talking a combined household income for a family in the USA. Then a median of 40k might be correct.

Either way the other difference we could discuss is healthcare costs. The average (median) health insurance cost in the USA is about $6,000 a year not counting out of pocket expenses. Admittedly I don't know how the National Health Service manages care and costs, and how that is passed on to the citizen/consumer, but I suspect that expenditures on healthcare pretty well cover the gap between the USA and the UK's median incomes.

*I'm sort of tired of reading diatribes about GW's prices, but their price hike has spurred on some fascinating discussions on international economics, which I have thoroughly enjoyed.


Cheers,
Kreuger


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Can't the Canadians still order from the US? Last I checked you still fall in under the North American area and be able to order from the US.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Kreuger said:


> @ Maidel - I think $40,000 sounds high for an average US income. How was that calculated in your source, median or mean?
> 
> It might be the correct mean, but I suspect it might be high by about 5-7k on the median, unless maybe we're talking a combined household income for a family in the USA. Then a median of 40k might be correct.


Its the mean income - and the mean household income was something like $90,000.

But I am comparing mean with mean, so the factors the drive the US mean up are equal to the factors that drive the UK mean up - it makes no difference so long as you are comparing the same two averages.





> Either way the other difference we could discuss is healthcare costs. The average (median) health insurance cost in the USA is about $6,000 a year not counting out of pocket expenses. Admittedly I don't know how the National Health Service manages care and costs, and how that is passed on to the citizen/consumer, but I suspect that expenditures on healthcare pretty well cover the gap between the USA and the UK's median incomes.


National insurance is something like £200 a month for me - so its about 7-8% of my income. But there is such an about face arse wise way of calculating how much national insurance you pay it bleedin hard to work out how much it actually amounts to. And the main difference is that the US 'health insurance' unfairly hits the poorest the most because (unless I am mistaken) it doesnt differentiate between rich and poor - whereas the national heath is a % of income and thus the more you earn, the more you pay.

So poorer people in the US will have relatively less disposable income than a comparable UK resident, but middle to rich will have comparatively more.



> *I'm sort of tired of reading diatribes about GW's prices, but their price hike has spurred on some fascinating discussions on international economics, which I have thoroughly enjoyed.


I first had these discussions with a friend I met from norway - They have one of the highest average adjusted incomes in the world and its very odd how it doesnt actually leave them any better off - but I learnt a hell of a lot from that conversation.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

The "poor vs. rich" juxtaposition in the USA's healthcare system is pretty ridiculous. There are all these strange gaps and bubbles in coverage amounts and costs.

So if you're really poor, a child, or elderly and have limited income and/or no private health insurance, you may qualify for some government subsidized health coverage. Which can cover quite a bit.

If you make enough money to not qualify for the subsidies but don't have the money for health insurance you pay exorbitantly high prices for everything, because you are essentially an unprotected buyer (see below.)

If you have health insurance, then your insurance company bargains a rate for different services with the healthcare providers. So a person's monthly premiums ensure that they essentially get a discount on many medical goods/services, and some of them will be paid outright, and others a portion will be paid then the customer has to pay the difference.

Following this system, the wealthy can afford a high level of coverage, and then can usually pay whatever remains without undue burden. The poor and lower middle class work more physically demanding jobs, and then pay a higher percentage of their earnings to get less medical coverage. Moderate coverage costs on order of about $6k a year, and if the average person in the USA earns $40k, then that's 15%.

And of course in the American healthcare market (calling it a system suggests its far more organized and integrated than it really is) there are quite a few ways the health insurance companies can avoid or deny coverage and claims, based on a sliding scale of medical practice/standards, preexisting conditions, and how competition.

And so on and so forth.

Certain things aren't well done when left to a free market.
When our doctors act like businessmen who can we turn to for doctors?

Kreuger


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Kreuger said:


> The "poor vs. rich" juxtaposition in the USA's healthcare system is pretty ridiculous. There are all these strange gaps and bubbles in coverage amounts and costs.
> 
> *Snip*
> 
> ...


 
I revise my statement.


So poorest people in the US will have relatively more disposable income than a comparable UK resident, but middle will have absolutely no disposable income unless they remain entirely healthy, but to rich will have comparatively stupid amounts more.

About right?


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Half right.

I was lumping together demographics that _May_ get subsidies, the poor, elderly, and children. That doesn't mean they are eligible, know how to apply, or would qualify even if they did.

Basically the poor folks in America often don't have any insurance or access to the subsidies, or decent care without astronomical bills.

Everyone hopes they don't get a chronic disease, and if they do, that they have a job where they won't be refused coverage through the company's plan.

It isn't all that uncommon for families to be bankrupted by medical bills in the States.

The poorest folks in the States might spend conspicuously, but I wouldn't call that income 'disposable'. The 'disposable' income of the middle earning ranges is often severely impaired by medical expenses. Unless you are in say the top half to top third of earners in the States.

The rich are the rich. Yes, they have stupefyingly large amounts of disposable income, because we've had a few Presidents who catered to the rich, and the amount of money the wealthy pay in taxes has changed dramatically over the last 30 years, both the tax rate on their direct salaries and on their earnings through dividends and investments has effectively gone down.

Anyway. The States are a fiscal mess. Capitalism is a fine way to run a market, but not a fine principle on which to base a society.


Kreuger


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## docgeo (Jan 8, 2010)

Kreuger said:


> The "poor vs. rich" juxtaposition in the USA's healthcare system is pretty ridiculous. There are all these strange gaps and bubbles in coverage amounts and costs.
> 
> So if you're really poor, a child, or elderly and have limited income and/or no private health insurance, you may qualify for some government subsidized health coverage. Which can cover quite a bit.
> 
> ...



Hey it really aren't the providers that are causeing all the problems. It is the insurance companies, Hospitals, Drug companies, and bogus lawsuits that cause the biggest problems. I know plenty of other providers that voluteer time or look the other way on outstanding bills from patients.

Doc


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Kreuger said:


> Anyway. The States are a fiscal mess. Capitalism is a fine way to run a market, but not a fine principle on which to base a society.
> 
> 
> Kreuger


 
Which is the exact opposite of communism - its a fine concept to base a society on, but an utterly screwed up way to run a country :biggrin:


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Maidel, I'll drink to that!

@DocGeo - I'd say it rests on four legs:


Pay for service & over utilization (the more medicine I do the more I get paid, so my office should order more tests so I can bill more time and procedures)
Health insurance greed, pharma, and for-profit healthcare in general (A profit motive when people need care and often can't live without it is . . . abhorrent.)
Increasing technological curve and related expenditures (often requiring increased utilization without significant health benefit, to pay for itself. New devices expand possible diagnostics and services, but require large investments for purchase, training, and adoption)
Defensive medicine and related malpractice costs/settlements (fairly obvious goes back to over utilization, and added overhead based on malpractice insurance and litigation costs and settlements)

Each one of these feeds the others. And I'm not saying doctors themselves are always the greedy ones, but the system we have in the states doesn't always (you can probably tell me how often) encourage best practices in medical care. And that system is now very well oiled to extract money from those most in need or from the government on their behalf.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I know my Income is somewhat disposable to a degree as Im still in the Military and have free Helath Care (as in "hey my arm is broken" and they give me a hacksaw... its that bad) but my family back home on the outside have to move in a smaller house thanks to medical bills. 4 working adults with 1 kid, have to move to a 180 square foot home now. Its horrible out there. Poor people are strolling with X-Box 360s and smoke pot all day and a family of workers cant even cover Cell Phone Bills, Car Insurance, Medical Bills, Life Insurance, low house payments, and car payments. Throw in the bad econimical situation we have now..... life is suking.


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## Killystar Gul Dakka (Mar 20, 2011)

Dave T Hobbit said:


> There is a perceptual bias in the OP's thesis.
> 
> We have nearly 30,000 members of which several hundred might visit the site on any day. Without counting number of posters in the threads, tens rather than hundreds of those active members post in complaining threads. Whilst there is a vocal minority who are posting repeatedly in more than one thread, taken as a proportion of the total use of the site they are a small proportion of the regular usage.


Quite possibly the most articulate break-down of the community "mob rabble"

+rep


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

correct me if I may you mentioned its hard for people with chronic ailments to get insured medically but wasnt it passed by Nobama med. insurrence companies can no longer deny customers due to these chrinc illnesses.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

Yes, but the Obama health reform isn't in full effect yet. There are only a few provisions in place now an most of it won't be in place until 2014.

And of course, it is also under litigation across the country.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

The Gunslinger said:


> Hi all
> Iv recently started Warhammer, and recently joined this forum.
> Now there are some brilliant tacticas, tutorials and a lot of useful stuff
> But having said that it seems that half of this forum is just full of people complaining, (yes im aware of the irony here)
> ...


Who in the hell do you think you are.

I found this post to be very offensive and condescending to others who have been affected by the latest GW stunts, you are in a fortunate position of living in the UK and not what GW considers the Arse end of the world.

GW won't listen to us, they have made their decision and that is final, so it is the various forum sites that allows up to vent our spleen. We here in Australia generally believe in a fair go for all, so it is with that we are pissed off by the massive price differential from the US and European Markets, if we paid 10% to 15% more, we can cop that, but a in some cases we pay up to 90% to 100% more than you guys in Britain.

Also here is a absolute fact and that is that GW B & M Stores mark up their product by a massive 75% and as far as i can figure out, this is worse with their resin (Finecast range) which will be marked up by a massive 90%.

And you expect that we say nothing, how arrogant.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Kreuger said:


> Yes, but the Obama health reform isn't in full effect yet. There are only a few provisions in place now an most of it won't be in place until 2014.
> 
> And of course, it is also under litigation across the country.


Not if the Republicans have their way, they have promised to fully repeal all Obama's Health Care Reforms.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Achaylus72 said:


> Who in the hell do you think you are.


This. The OP is basically saying 

"Hi, I just started this game and joined this forum, here is a long rant about how I think all the people who have been playing for over 20 years and are emotionally invested and have used tens of thousands are really just dicks for complaining"

I feel more resentment for this person than I feel towards GW themselves... Honestly I think this is designed to cause flames and should as such have been closed long ago.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> This. The OP is basically saying
> 
> "Hi, I just started this game and joined this forum, here is a long rant about how I think all the people who have been playing for over 20 years and are emotionally invested and have used tens of thousands are really just dicks for complaining"
> 
> I feel more resentment for this person than I feel towards GW themselves... Honestly I think this is designed to cause flames and should as such have been closed long ago.


Probably the OP is some spoilt rich brat that has servants picking up after him, he certainly does not live in the real world.

As i have said, this person is arrogant.


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## JAMOB (Dec 30, 2010)

The Gunslinger said:


> Look I think this has gotten out of hand, all I wanted to do was try and get people to stop complaining and get back to the good parts of the hobby.


Look, im not saying it wasnt a good idea (although it wasnt) but this isnt the way to do it. either A. ignore it and skim through and post that is obviously a complaining rant or B. read it and laugh at either how stupid their complaint is or how stupid the people theyre complaining about are

let the people rant, it saves them from breaking into GW stores and vandalizing it then going to jail
much better for everyone


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

JAMOB said:


> Look, im not saying it wasnt a good idea (although it wasnt) but this isnt the way to do it. either A. ignore it and skim through and post that is obviously a complaining rant or B. read it and laugh at either how stupid their complaint is or how stupid the people theyre complaining about are
> 
> let the people rant, it saves them from breaking into GW stores and vandalizing it then going to jail
> much better for everyone


Exactly, i went on several rants on various forums and then when i got it out of my system, i sat down and then looked around to find a Maelstrom Games replacement and within two days i found that replacement, all because i allowed myself the satisfaction of venting my spleen.

As you say it is better than walking into a GW and punching the poor bastard behind the counter.


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## Troublehalf (Aug 6, 2010)

Just to put a point in here, I heard (I say heard) from employes in GW that GW are loosing a lot of money, either in profit or as actual loss. Therefore the increase in price maybe done to increase profits. I dunno. It does suck indeed, very much so and I think people are right to complain, perhaps Cheese was right, maybe it should of been kept to one post (If it was on the same point).

I feel really bad for you guys, it sucks that you can't get stuff now. But if you think about it, it is buisness sense, it is better for them to forbid 3rd party sites from selling their stuff (which they buy in bulk at lower prices) and then 'force' customers to buy from local GW's or the website, in order to keep the money directly in GWs hands.

It does suck but it's part of buisness.... if people didn't notice, several months ago I saw prices go up by 50p or so on the website. Maybe somebody will find a way round it.


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## Tzeen Qhayshek (May 4, 2010)

After a night of drinks, I am inclined to agree with most of the complainers around here - GW will implode if they can't find a way to halt pricing themselves out of the market. I am no economist but I have heard that slashing prices can increase demand, thus generating more income.

There are so many things GW needs to do that they will never do. It's unfortunate, really. I hope they can turn this around.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Achaylus72 said:


> Probably the OP is some spoilt rich brat that has servants picking up after him, he certainly does not live in the real world.
> 
> As i have said, this person is arrogant.


Please, it's not like this one price increase has made the hobby expensive. The hobby has always been expensive. No one in this thread, the OP included, has made the claim the hobby was cheap. 

There also isn't anyone out there on this forum that is happy about the price increase, there are those who are taking this as the final straw to stop them from playing the game and those who will be more picky with their purchases from GW.

Also your previous post:



> Who in the hell do you think you are.
> 
> I found this post to be very offensive and condescending to others who have been affected by the latest GW stunts, you are in a fortunate position of living in the UK and not what GW considers the Arse end of the world.
> 
> ...


is incredibly arrogant. Why are some people allowed to complain and others are not? The general defence of people that start rant threads is "don't read it if you don't agree with it" yet people that have defended/expresed understanding of GW decision can't seem to use that same defence in their own rant thread.

Also, you list an "absolute fact" in your post so I would like to see some evidence of that. I would also like you to clarify what you mean by "mark up," as in mark up over MSRP for the region or mark up as in relation to production costs. If it's in relation to MSRP well thats clearly wrong, and if it's in relation to their production costs it's a low to modest mark up at best.

If you want really high mark ups look at Cables (HDMI and the like), craft items (like stickers and paper and such), after market car parts (some), and jewlery. Most are marked up in the hundreds to thousands of percent. When I was working at Micahels Arts and Crafts they were buying stickers for five cents a package (shipping costs and such included) and selling them for $1.99, 39.8 times (3980% markup) the cost of the product. A 90% markup doesn't seem so bad any more, right?


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## The Gunslinger (Apr 4, 2011)

Achaylus72 said:


> Probably the OP is some spoilt rich brat that has servants picking up after him, he certainly does not live in the real world.
> 
> As i have said, this person is arrogant.


If you would have bothered to read the entire thread you would have learnt two things,
Firstly I work very hard at a shitty job with shitty hours so I can afford to do what I want, so no servants, actually the fact you think all British people are “spoilt Rich brats with servants” is about as offensive to me as calling all Australians convicts.
Secondly you would have seen iv on ready apologised for any offence I cause and that I was only trying to get people to see past the price increase and enjoy the hobby

Yea so im the new guy, but my new, fresh outlook on things is starting to make me wonder how much some of you actually care about this hobby, I wouldn’t stop no matter how expensive it got


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> After a night of drinks, I am inclined to agree with most of the complainers around here - GW will implode if they can't find a way to halt pricing themselves out of the market. I am no economist but I have heard that slashing prices can increase demand, thus generating more income.


Im hoping that GW does price themselves in a hole. Then maybe a third party will buy them out.

Employe A " Why arnt we generating any income?"
Employe B " Maybe our company has raise price to high for people to buy?"
Employe A " Nonsense, there not high enough! Thats it, we can make more money by increasing a box set to 150 smakaroos!"
Employe B " Genious!!!"

This is the only reason why they make this dumb move. This may be a hobby but you raise prices so they resemble a Car Sales lot. Cars are NEEDED this hobby is not. Thus you would sell lower to get people into this hobby that is constantly refered to as a kids hobby for christ sake.You dont see the toy market charging 50 bucks for a action figure, until that toy line dies and its a Collectible.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> This is the only reason why they make this dumb move. This may be a hobby but you raise prices so they resemble a Car Sales lot. Cars are NEEDED this hobby is not. Thus you would sell lower to get people into this hobby that is constantly refered to as a kids hobby for christ sake.You dont see the toy market charging 50 bucks for a action figure, until that toy line dies and its a Collectible.


Really? I think either the american toy market is bloody cheap or you dont have children...

Just to give an example - a teeni tini box of lego - the ones that have 4 little people in and a raft or scooter - thats £12.

A 'normal' box of lego - one that has a small car in - thats £25. (a box about the size of a land raider)

The bigger boxes of lego then start at £35 and go up past £200.

And they are definatively 'childrens toys' - and at those prices (considering what you actually get out of it!) it makes GW look CHEAP!

A single star wars action figure is £8-10. Thats a piece of form molded plastic with no detail and painted by a machine and its half the price of a box of space marines...


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## mynameisgrax (Sep 25, 2009)

The Gunslinger said:


> Hi all
> Iv recently started Warhammer, and recently joined this forum.
> Now there are some brilliant tacticas, tutorials and a lot of useful stuff
> But having said that it seems that half of this forum is just full of people complaining, (yes im aware of the irony here)
> ...


Yeah, as others have said, they raised prices for no apparent reason, screwed over the Australian gamers, and changed from pewter to resin....although personally, I prefer that change. Resin is a lot better than pewter for fine details.

Plus, change was involved, and most people turn into raving psychopaths when confronted with change. It's just one of those things.


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## arlins (Sep 8, 2010)

Maidel said:


> Really? I think either the american toy market is bloody cheap or you dont have children...
> 
> Just to give an example - a teeni tini box of lego - the ones that have 4 little people in and a raft or scooter - thats £12.
> 
> ...


 I have to agree with the star wars figiures and lego , my eldests just turned 10 and its 
cheaper for him to play WH40 then to collect star wars related toys ,


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

arlins said:


> I have to agree with the star wars figiures and lego , my eldests just turned 10 and its
> cheaper for him to play WH40 then to collect star wars related toys ,


Well mine is only 10 months and I am so glad because she cant tell the difference between a £25 Tigger or eyore and a £5 stuffed tiger or donkey.

Im not lookin forward to the time she can tell the difference....:suicide:


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## arlins (Sep 8, 2010)

Maidel said:


> Well mine is only 10 months and I am so glad because she cant tell the difference between a £25 Tigger or eyore and a £5 stuffed tiger or donkey.
> 
> Im not lookin forward to the time she can tell the difference....:suicide:


 LOL been there mate , and it aint cheap , joys of parenthood ( but at least i get to buy cool toys now and pretend theyre his lol )


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

arlins said:


> LOL been there mate , and it aint cheap , joys of parenthood ( but at least i get to buy cool toys now and pretend theyre his lol )


Bugger...


I will insist that she is a tom boy!


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