# Which Primarch is the best in a fight?



## deathwatch_v

So if it was a 1v1 fight between Primarchs and everyone faced everyone, who would win in your opinion?

Rules for the fight, they are aloud to use all powers available to them, but night haunter / corax or whateva cant jump out from behind a bush and back stab the other guy (which i no is kinda unfair but still). Also this battle happens just pre-heresy so Horus isn't super buffed up by the chaos gods.

My fav is between sanguineous and Leman. After the book Thousand sons im leaning to Leman coz he was super badass defeating Magnus, but Mr angel wings did do some awesome things 2...i might reconsider when a HH novel comes out with Sanguineous kicking the Bloodthirster in the nuts, but for now its the Wolf King .


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## Barnster

I think Magnus, but as you have all guessed by now I'm quite biased!

On a serious note he has a massive range advantage, his spells could blast other away from further away than they could get at him. I reckon magnus could have killed russ if he wanted to.

As far as cool stuff goes he topples an eldar titan, smashes an ork Gargant titan, crushes a lord of change. I personally think there both bigger achievements than breaking a bloodthirster. 

Night haunter would be fun to watch in this fight though as a rabid feral Batman!


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## FORTHELION

lion for me. most people will probably say russ but we all know lion kicked his ass in a 1v1 fight. :grin:


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## Baltar

BTW the bloodthirster that Sanguinius kills is not a "normal" bloodthirster, it's far far bigger and tougher.

Taken from the BA codex:



> No mere bloodthirster was this, but Ka'Bandha, first amongst Khorne's servants and heir to power and stature easily thrice that of any of his kind.... In the final days of the Horus Heresy, it was Ka'Bandha who had duelled Sanguinius before the Emperor's palace.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Well according to Corax in _Raven's Flight_ - Angron, Horus and Sanguinius are the three best warriors amongst the Primarchs.

There are also countless quotes throughout the source material claiming that Horus is the greatest Primarch and is a warrior without peer. For example:



The Horus Heresy Collected Visions said:


> Chief amongst the Primarchs is Horus, the first and strongest and to the Emperor like a son... He is without peer as a warrior...





The Horus Heresy Collected Visions said:


> Horus is his greatest champion and the Emperor bestows upon him the title of Warmaster and cedes to him control of all of the Imperium's military forces.





The Horus Heresy Collected Visions said:


> Foremost amongst his warriors was Horus, the first and possibly greatest of the Primarchs, and certainly the best general in the Emperor's host.





Codex: Chaos (second edition) said:


> Horus too, the greatest Primarch of all...


Personally I would go with Corax and say its out of the three; Sanguinius, Horus or Angron.

Although Fulgrim (Post-Heresy) does have the highest Primarch kill tally


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## Coder59

I'm going with Sanguinius. Sure Horus is a riteous asskicker but he got his butt kicked by a nugle possessed human. It took Ka'Bhanda to take down Bird boy. And don't get me started on Sanguinius Vs Angron, the only evidence we have of them being measured against each other is in Raven's Flight and that was only Corax's oppinion. If you listen to the Lightning tower Dorn estimates he's got a fair chance of splitting Angron's head open.


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## ckcrawford

My top Five with Horus at the top

1. Horus, no question about it

2. Sanguinus, Horus said would have chosen him as warmaster, and that Bloodthirster said that if he had joined Khorne he would have been its greatest champion, this with Angron already under Khorne's feet

3. Angron... no shit he'd be in top 5, but as CoE said if you listen to Raven's flight you get Corax's statement

4. Corax. I think the fact that he could take a lascannon to the chest is pretty impressive, and he didn't name any other primarchs that were better than him other than those three so I think its safe to say hes up there. 



> "There was not another primarch that could best him in single combat except Horus and maybe Sanguinus. Corax was an immortal lord of battle but Angron was war incarnate." Chapter 11 Raven's Flight (1:50)


5. Fulgrim- greatest primarch kill tally.


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## gen.ahab

I would like to say Russ or the Lion but in all honesty I would say Horus. Lol I loved pre-heresy horus.


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## Platypus5

To be quite frank, I only voted for Leman Russ because he is the only one I heard of.

And plus, he got into a bar fight with the Emperor and didn't go down for a while.


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## Serpion5

The Real Sanguinius said:


> BTW the bloodthirster that Sanguinius kills is not a "normal" bloodthirster, it's far far bigger and tougher.
> 
> Taken from the BA codex:


Have you noticed that every named bloodthirster seems to be Khorne`s favourite one? Angraath, Skarbrand (before he lost his cool, Kabhanda as well as the Heart of Blood from Dead Sky Black Sun.

WTF?!

Khorne! You cheating bastard, I thought we had something special! (cries hysterically):cray:

...oh, and uh... Magnus. :so_happy:


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## nate187

Russ out of personal bias and no one and I mean no one other then a chaos infused horus or maybe and I mean maybe big angel could take him down. As the 1k novel said psychic power held little sway over russ and he infact used his own psychic sceam.


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## Bane_of_Kings

Choice 01: Leman Russ - Well, I collect SW after all. :victory: 

Choice: 02: Sanguinous - BA are my second favourite chapter, I guess.


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## LukeValantine

I would either vote for Horus or Leman Russ.

Damn I didn't realize I had already passed my 666 post.


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## mcmuffin

I say leman russ because he whipped magnus and the undead wolf morkai. but i am a little biased and honestly i think horus would beat them silly.
@ FORTHELION: lion took a cheap shot on russ while he was trying to dismiss the fight as a load of balls.
@nate187: damn you for stealing my avatar...Damn you!!!!!!!!! lol


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## Ferrus Manus

wow suprised that Angron isnt in the lead, i voted fo him as he has got a technical disability which leads to him having a killing rage...

but i was a bit confused with "Alpharius Omegon" cause theres two of them.. so what would they be standing back to back with duel pistols/ weapons fighting everyone back


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## Khorothis

I doubt that the praises the Primarchs get pre-heresy should be taken too seriously, since before that the Primarchs never had to fight each other to the death. Also, the timing is also pretty bad, since Horus, as far as I know (haven't read everything, so I could easily be wrong here) was not a psyker and had no psychic abilities whatsoever. Consequently, he would be boned if Magnus decided to burn his ass to crisp for heresy. Russ was only able to deal with Magnus because A, he was extremely resilient to psychic powers B, his armour too C, he got lucky and managed to wound Magnus' eye, which turned out to be the source of his power: if he didn't, Magnus would have probably finished him off. Which is a big deal if you consider that Russ and his Legion were designed to be an anti-Astartes force.

With this in mind, I'd say that Russ is the most likely to have no remorse for killing one of his brothers and consequently he wouldn't waste time on being heartbroken. Also, as it is written in A Thousand Sons, he and his Legion are engineered to adapt to any given situation and find and expose the weaknesses of the enemy, making him the ideal Primarch-killer. However, if you consider that it was bloody luck (or the will of Tzeentch himself) that let him defeat Magnus, and even then just barely and in the last minute, the Crimson King seems to be the most powerful of the Primarchs. Add to that that not every Primarch is even a psyker, making them vulnerable to Magnus' psychic attacks, and even those that do have some talent are simply not powerful enough to keep up with him. Even Russ' chestplate shattered in the battle with Magnus, which was not only protected by itself, but by Russ' inherent resistance. Consequently, my vote goes to Magnus.


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## shaantitus

For sheer total horsepower. Magnus. He was not giving his all during the battle on prospero and his powers are unparalleled. 

Physical combat might, Horus, Sanguinus or angron but I would lean toward the latter. Angron is the Primarch gladiator. What is 1 on 1 if not gladiatorial combat. Horus is the greatest warrior but I think angron is the greatest fighter, and that is a distinction that can be made.


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## Sanguine Rain

I voted for Sanguinius because he is a master at close combat and unlike other primarchs he has the advantage of wings...he can fly circles around them and strike from any direction, although Angron is known for his brute force, i think sanguinius would best him because of his elegant style...whatevs
:victory:
(btw anyone like my new avatar?)


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## NoiseMarine

I vote Horus, who ripped out the Emperor's lungs and killed Sanguinius within an hour?


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## Geist

Despite the fact that I dislike the BA paint scheme, I'm going with Sanguinius. Can't beat his killing of a bigger better bloodthirster. Also, I'm a sucker for real Angels of Death.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Khorothis said:


> since Horus, as far as I know (haven't read everything, so I could easily be wrong here) was not a psyker and had no psychic abilities whatsoever.


Well all the Primarchs were created using the Warp/Chaos, And given Russ' psychic scream in _A Thousand Sons_ (which I simply see as the result of his rage in the Warp) its not a far leap to suggest that all the Primarchs were capable of such a thing. Also its mentioned in _Collected Visions_ and some older source material like _Codex: Imperialis_ I believe, that all the Primarchs were psykers to some extent. 

Unless this 'psychic scream' was purposely engineered into Russ, in order to better make him able to combat other Primarchs, going along the lines of the Space Wolves being an Anti-Astartes Legion here (which hasn't been confirmed yet).



Khorothis said:


> Consequently, he would be boned if Magnus decided to burn his ass to crisp for heresy. Russ was only able to deal with Magnus because A, he was extremely resilient to psychic powers


And if Russ was extremely resilient to psychic powers, is it not safe to assume that all the Primarchs were? (Unless of course as I said above, it was specifically engineered into Russ).



Khorothis said:


> B, his armour too


I can't recall any mention of his armour causing him to be psychically resilient, unless you mean all the wolf charms and talismans he had - which could have possibly protected him (simply because he believed they would).



Khorothis said:


> C, he got lucky and managed to wound Magnus' eye, which turned out to be the source of his power: if he didn't, Magnus would have probably finished him off.


I should really read _A Thousand Sons_ again, because I dont even remember Russ striking Magnus in the eye! But how was his eye the source of his power?



Khorothis said:


> Which is a big deal if you consider that Russ and his Legion were designed to be an anti-Astartes force.


Like I said above, thats still really only speculation at the moment - at least until _Prospero Burns_ is released.


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## Khorothis

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Well all the Primarchs were created using the Warp/Chaos, And given Russ' psychic scream in _A Thousand Sons_ (which I simply see as the result of his rage in the Warp) its not a far leap to suggest that all the Primarchs were capable of such a thing. Also its mentioned in _Collected Visions_ and some older source material like _Codex: Imperialis_ I believe, that all the Primarchs were psykers to some extent.


I base my argument on the first two books of the HH series, where Horus is never described as having any psychic powers at all. I'm thinking mainly of his encounter with that Nurglite guy that stabbed him: Horus did nothing but fight like a warrior, no fancy spells were cast. He also had no idea of the blade the guy carried, just noticed that something was wrong with it. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And if Russ was extremely resilient to psychic powers, is it not safe to assume that all the Primarchs were? (Unless of course as I said above, it was specifically engineered into Russ).


It would be logical indeed to assume that every Primarch had some manner of basic resilience engineered into them, but being able to resist the Warp is not the same as being aware of it, let alone wield it. Also, his whole Legion had some manner of psychic resistance thanks to the talismans they wore, and with this in mind its not baseless to assume that Russ had a better built-in resistance than his brothers; but other Legions had nothing like this. For istance, Mortarion didn't have a single Librarian in his Legion, which could easily imply that his geneseed was lacking in terms of psychic potential. Same goes for Horus because unless my memory betrays me, his Legion had no Librarians either, not even a single psyker or anyone with even the smallest potential.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I can't recall any mention of his armour causing him to be psychically resilient, unless you mean all the wolf charms and talismans he had - which could have possibly protected him (simply because he believed they would).


The same as above, plus there was a Thousand Son (Agama-something) who cast a WoC-looking spell at him, but it was reflected back at him and he died a gruesome death.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I should really read _A Thousand Sons_ again, because I dont even remember Russ striking Magnus in the eye! But how was his eye the source of his power?


I gave my book to a friend of mine who wanted to read it, so I can't give you a page number and a quotation. But it happens when Magnus and Russ fight in front of the gates of Magnus's pyramid (Photep something, can't recall exactly): Magnus shatters Russ' chestplate, stabs him with a psychic lance, but then Russ cuts Magnus' eye with his sword and suddenly the hole in reality above them disappears.


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## Baron Spikey

Well Mortarion didn't have any Librarians in his Legion because he hated Psykers and refused to allow any Librarians within the Legion's ranks, that's not to say the potential wasn't there though.

Just because Leman Russ stabbed Magnus in the eye and that causes the hole in reality to disappear doesn't mean that his eye was the soure of Magnus' powers, more plausibly is the fact that such sudden overwhelming agony broke Magnus' concentration causing the hole to dissipate.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Khorothis said:


> I base my argument on the first two books of the HH series, where Horus is never described as having any psychic powers at all. I'm thinking mainly of his encounter with that Nurglite guy that stabbed him: Horus did nothing but fight like a warrior, no fancy spells were cast. He also had no idea of the blade the guy carried, just noticed that something was wrong with it.


No, Horus isn't described as having any such psychic abilities throughout the Heresy series. But that doesn't stop him having some form of innate psychic abilities (even if its just some form of resistance to Warp energy). Or maybe his abilities were just latent.

In fact Russ' psychic scream was only registered and felt because there were a lot of psykers nearby (The Thousand Sons). How many psykers were around Horus in the first few books? A minimal amount, if any at all at times.



Khorothis said:


> Also, his whole Legion had some manner of psychic resistance thanks to the talismans they wore, and with this in mind its not baseless to assume that Russ had a better built-in resistance than his brothers; but other Legions had nothing like this.


But that doesn't mean that Russ had a better built-in or engineered psychic resistance, just that it was merely his belief that the wolf talismans and icons protected him from psychic powers, which meant that his wolf talismans and icons did protect from psychic energy, but only bceause he believed it - remembering that belief/faith is a very powerful force within the Warp.


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## BloodAngelsfan

A quick question to those who picked Sanguinius over Horus... Do you really think Sanguinius would win the second time around? I mean, he was demolished when they fought above Terra, so would he really have a better chance were they to square off now? I would normally vote for Russ, being a wolf at heart, but I mean... Horus went mano a mano with the Emperor!


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## Baltar

BloodAngelsfan said:


> A quick question to those who picked Sanguinius over Horus... Do you really think Sanguinius would win the second time around? I mean, he was demolished when they fought above Terra, so would he really have a better chance were they to square off now? I would normally vote for Russ, being a wolf at heart, but I mean... Horus went mano a mano with the Emperor!


1: Above Terra Horus was enhanced by chaos.

2: Just before the fight above Terra, Sanguinius had just fought for weeks without end in a battle for the Emperor's palace, and immediately before the fight with Horus he had fought and killed a bloodthirster at least 3 times larger and more powerful than a "normal" bloodthirster. He had also fought through Horus's ship to get to Horus. Horus was always going to win, considering he was completely "fresh" for the fight.

3: Just because Horus was the best all-round, does not mean he would win in a contest purely based on martial prowess. He was the best warrior in _all_ aspects, and that is not just in 1 on 1 combat.

Personally I think this contest is only really between Leman Russ and Sanguinius.


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## NoiseMarine

The Real Sanguinius said:


> 1: Above Terra Horus was enhanced by chaos.
> 
> 2: Just before the fight above Terra, Sanguinius had just fought for weeks without end in a battle for the Emperor's palace, and immediately before the fight with Horus he had fought and killed a bloodthirster at least 3 times larger and more powerful than a "normal" bloodthirster. He had also fought through Horus's ship to get to Horus. Horus was always going to win, considering he was completely "fresh" for the fight.


 Since Sanguinius was a Primarch... I'm pretty sure he would be fresh as can be since they regenerate at a rate that would make a Space Marine blanch and he wasn't maimed at any point in the entire battle. Or seriously injured.

Again, I'll reiterate... Horus battled the Emperor toe-to-toe and won -Of course that isn't counting the Emperor's mind-fuck that came out of nowhere- without taking any serious injuries himself, just AFTER killing Sanguinius in a matter of seconds.

A Primarch wouldn't have to be "fresh" to be in tip-top shape, And where exactly does it say he fought through Horus' ship? 

And I feel as if I must point this out even if you remain unconvinced that freshness is irrelevant, The Emperor was "fresh" and still got pwnt -for the most part (mindfuck etc :| ). Therefor by your logic, Horus "beat" the Emperor just after killing Sanguinius.... Making Horus "un-fresh." Or did you overlook that?


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## gen.ahab

This is based of the primarchs before any chaos involvement. Not after so the events that took place upon Horus’s flagship are irrelevant.


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## Baltar

NoiseMarine said:


> Since Sanguinius was a Primarch... I'm pretty sure he would be fresh as can be since they regenerate at a rate that would make a Space Marine blanch and he wasn't maimed at any point in the entire battle. Or seriously injured.
> 
> Again, I'll reiterate... Horus battled the Emperor toe-to-toe and won -Of course that isn't counting the Emperor's mind-fuck that came out of nowhere- without taking any serious injuries himself, just AFTER killing Sanguinius in a matter of seconds.
> 
> A Primarch wouldn't have to be "fresh" to be in tip-top shape, And where exactly does it say he fought through Horus' ship?
> 
> And I feel as if I must point this out even if you remain unconvinced that freshness is irrelevant, The Emperor was "fresh" and still got pwnt -for the most part (mindfuck etc :| ). Therefor by your logic, Horus "beat" the Emperor just after killing Sanguinius.... Making Horus "un-fresh." Or did you overlook that?


Ah, so you havn't read the collected visions then.

The Emperor did not "fight" Horus. Horus attacked the Emperor, and the Emperor allowed Horus to literally tear him limb from limb. The full extent of the _exact_ damage, blow for blow, is given in the collected visions. Then some event took place (the appearance of a custodian guard) that caused the Emperor to fully realise that Horus could not be saved - and he blasted him immediately from existence with his mind.

The End.

If the Emperor were to actually "fight" any of the primarchs, they would just die.


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## gen.ahab

Whole heartedly agree with that assessment.


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## NoiseMarine

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Ah, so you havn't read the collected visions then.
> 
> The Emperor did not "fight" Horus. Horus attacked the Emperor, and the Emperor allowed Horus to literally tear him limb from limb. The full extent of the _exact_ damage, blow for blow, is given in the collected visions. Then some event took place (the appearance of a custodian guard) that caused the Emperor to fully realise that Horus could not be saved - and he blasted him immediately from existence with his mind.
> 
> The End.
> 
> If the Emperor were to actually "fight" any of the primarchs, they would just die.


 While I thank you for that information, it doesn't change the fact that Horus killed Sanguinius one on one.


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## Baltar

NoiseMarine said:


> While I thank you for that information, it doesn't change the fact that Horus killed Sanguinius one on one.


Again, it is possible that you could be mistaken.

Time will tell when the HH book is released with this part of the story in it, but one of the two versions of the descriptions of the confrontation between Sanguinius and Horus tells us that Sanguinius _would_ _not_ fight Horus. He got on his knees and he begged his brother to see what he had become, and Horus simply strangled him to death. There was, supposedly, no fight at all, because Sanguinius tried to make Horus see what he was doing (just like the Emperor would not believe that Horus was truly turned to chaos).

However, it isn't confirmed. I do believe that this will be the canon version of events.


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## gen.ahab

And that is HORUS bloated with the power of 4 chaos gods. Do you think Luther could have ever even stood against the Lion if he had not received the same gifts? No he could not. Again, this is concerning the primarchs BEFORE any chaos involvement. IE that fight is irrelevant.


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## nate187

mcmuffin said:


> @nate187: damn you for stealing my avatar...Damn you!!!!!!!!! lol


Sorry mate I found it on the net ages ago and thought I was the only one lol

P.S I forgot about the cheap shot from the lion what a wimp


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## deathwatch_v

The Real Sanguinius said:


> 3: Just because Horus was the best all-round, does not mean he would win in a contest purely based on martial prowess. He was the best warrior in _all_ aspects, and that is not just in 1 on 1 combat.


I totally agree with this statment. You think of Dorn and Perturabo as master siegers, and the lion as brilliant tactician, horus as an all-rounder and Angron/Russ/Sanguineous as epic brawlers...imo this is who the contest is between. Remember its 1v1


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## Baltar

I also don't like it when people go into the "other" skills section of the debate. Shooting/psyker powers/other etc....

If it comes to a crunch between such epic beings, then it's settled in CC. Always in CC. Anything else is not epic enough in any way. And you know it!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Ah, so you havn't read the collected visions then.
> 
> The Emperor did not "fight" Horus. Horus attacked the Emperor, and the Emperor allowed Horus to literally tear him limb from limb. The full extent of the _exact_ damage, blow for blow, is given in the collected visions. Then some event took place (the appearance of a custodian guard) that caused the Emperor to fully realise that Horus could not be saved - and he blasted him immediately from existence with his mind.
> 
> The End.
> 
> If the Emperor were to actually "fight" any of the primarchs, they would just die.


Personally I think the _Collected Visions_ account of their duel, if anything shows that Horus was the one holding back (possibly as well as the Emperor). Horus was savouring the moment, picking the Emperor apart limb by limb instead of just going straight for the killing blow. 

It was when the Emperor gained a moment (when the Custodian/Terminator/Astartes/whatever entered) to gather his senses and muster his strength that he was able to unleash the _full_ force of his psychic might, which obliterated Horus' soul but also resulted in him essentially finishing himself off as well.


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## Baltar

Yeah, I think that Horus did hold back. It wasn't like he just decaptated the Emperor, or anything. He basically just went for dismemberment/mutilation, rather than actuall killing blows. I think he wanted to talk to his father, and to hate him, and let him see that he hated him.


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## Khorothis

The Real Sanguinius said:


> I also don't like it when people go into the "other" skills section of the debate. Shooting/psyker powers/other etc....
> 
> If it comes to a crunch between such epic beings, then it's settled in CC. Always in CC. Anything else is not epic enough in any way. And you know it!


So when the Emperor unplugged Horus from the world with his psychic powers he was cheating, right? Same goes for Magnus, how dare he do what hes best at! And lets not forget the Night Haunter either, hes typically the kind of guy who'd look the rules straight in the eye then die laughing. Reality has one rule: history is written by the victor. No one gives a damn how he won, point is he did.


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## Tuck3r

Sanguinus because the Great Angel is just better.

In the Blood Angels codex horus is said to sense a oneness with thier father and a purity of spirit in sanguinus that none could ever hope to match. but this isn't important untill a bit later in the post

In the BA codex its said that The Great angel was "weary and wounded from his Travails on Terra" sanguinius was brought through artiface and low cunning to horus after being seperated from all the other forces and his father. Horus gave him one final chance to renounce the emperor and join with Horus but sanguinus stood firm with his fathers wishes the Horus ( who was blessed by Chaos undivided at this point augumenting everything that his father gave him) Flew into a rage.

So... Horus was nearly an equal to sanguinus when all the primarchs we're created, then horus was augumented by all 4 chaos gods sanguinus was wounded and weary and horus had flown into a rage because of sanguinus' continued defence of the emperor and because he was jealous of sanguinius' closeness with their father and they we're on a cramped bridge where sanguinius' main advanteage was canceled out because horus had chosen the battleground. and we're supposed to accept that that's a balanced evaluation of thier unaided strength:nono:

as to the reason that horus instead of attempting a killing blow mutilated the emperor while he stood their was cause the emperor was trying to reason with his prodigal son and horus was in a state of mind similar to tidus from ffx "But if he dies, you'll never be able to tell him how much you hate him" type thing. So when the emperor realized that Horus had fallen to far to be redeamed he unleashed the full power of his mind and obbliterated horus body and soul.


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## nate187

Tuck3r said:


> as to the reason that horus instead of attempting a killing blow mutilated the emperor while he stood their was cause the emperor was trying to reason with his prodigal son and horus was in a state of mind similar to tidus from ffx "But if he dies, you'll never be able to tell him how much you hate him" type thing. So when the emperor realized that Horus had fallen to far to be redeamed he unleashed the full power of his mind and obbliterated horus body and soul.


Amen mind you I still think Russ and The Big angel would come very very close


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## deathbringer

Russ by a mile.
Angron is psycho yet if as Abnett says the space wolves are there to kill another legion
then russ is designed to kill another primarch
QED
Plus I'm taking this as a striaght....Gladiators ready royal rumble style battle not two armies march across the misty plains sort of battle.


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## dark angel

My vote goes for Jaghatai Khan. He had one of the most bloody backgrounds, slaughtering an entire tribe out of rage after his adoptive father was killed, leading a campaign where he ravaged cities and destroyed armies, oh and he cut the head off of the Palatines son and destroying a hunting party who were pursuing him, although he left one alive to give the Palatine a message. 

On Sanguinius; In Collected Visions, he does not hold the Gate against hordes of Daemons, Chaos Marines and other enemy forces but rather hovers above it and watches as his Blood Angels move the wounded inwards, and the Custodians lead counter attacks. When Ka'Bandha reveals himself, he downs Sanguinius and lands to kill him. However, he stops and begins to chant towards his Daemon's and Sanguinius gets back up (Even though it is said he was not moving just before) and uses the last of his energy to lift the Daemon above his head and crack his back. So, the fight with Ka'Bandha exhausted him if you go by that, as it does not mention him fighting alone at the Eternity Gate.

So, I personally believe that Ka'Bandha won, and must have either thought him dead or unable to move. Oh well, he still got what he deserved anyway:grin:


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## Coder59

Tuck3r said:


> Sanguinus because the Great Angel is just better.
> 
> In the Blood Angels codex horus is said to sense a oneness with thier father and a purity of spirit in sanguinus that none could ever hope to match. but this isn't important untill a bit later in the post
> 
> In the BA codex its said that The Great angel was "weary and wounded from his Travails on Terra" sanguinius was brought through artiface and low cunning to horus after being seperated from all the other forces and his father. Horus gave him one final chance to renounce the emperor and join with Horus but sanguinus stood firm with his fathers wishes the Horus ( who was blessed by Chaos undivided at this point augumenting everything that his father gave him) Flew into a rage.
> 
> So... Horus was nearly an equal to sanguinus when all the primarchs we're created, then horus was augumented by all 4 chaos gods sanguinus was wounded and weary and horus had flown into a rage because of sanguinus' continued defence of the emperor and because he was jealous of sanguinius' closeness with their father and they we're on a cramped bridge where sanguinius' main advanteage was canceled out because horus had chosen the battleground. and we're supposed to accept that that's a balanced evaluation of thier unaided strength:nono:
> 
> as to the reason that horus instead of attempting a killing blow mutilated the emperor while he stood their was cause the emperor was trying to reason with his prodigal son and horus was in a state of mind similar to tidus from ffx "But if he dies, you'll never be able to tell him how much you hate him" type thing. So when the emperor realized that Horus had fallen to far to be redeamed he unleashed the full power of his mind and obbliterated horus body and soul.


Very well said. I always hate it when people say things like "Oh Sanguinius wings weren't an advantage in combat".....WITH WINGS YOU CAN FLY! :ireful2: Do I really have to spell it out why that's a major advantage in combat? Yes even single combat! 

I also like how you compared Horus to that whiney little burk from FFX. :biggrin: Especially since Horus seems to go from being awesome to the king of whiney "I hate my dad" teenagers.


----------



## Serpion5

Never considered the FFX reference before...

Horus as Tidus. Emperor as Jecht.

It kind of fits. The Emp was a pretty arrogant SOB at times. And now he`s dead. Yeah, pretty good fit.


----------



## Yodhan

Sorry, as a devout Dark Angel fan, I have to go with the Lion. He took out Leman Russ (call it a cheap shot if you want, he knocked him out) and when he went after his best friend, he tore the planet apart taking him down. Pretty baller if you ask me.


----------



## nate187

Yodhan said:


> Sorry, as a devout Dark Angel fan, I have to go with the Lion. He took out Leman Russ (call it a cheap shot if you want, he knocked him out) and when he went after his best friend, he tore the planet apart taking him down. Pretty baller if you ask me.


Fair enough thats your choice haha but as I remember caliban was pulled apart by the furious bombardment the lion released on his home planet. He was almost defeated by an accended mortal (luther) but luther felt sorry for what he became and not the lion defeating him.

Anyone can dog shot some one thats why I always watch for people in pubs when shit goes down even a seasoned fighter (RUSS) can lose when his back is turned or un awares


----------



## Coder59

nate187 said:


> Fair enough thats your choice haha but as I remember caliban was pulled apart by the furious bombardment the lion released on his home planet. He was almost defeated by an accended mortal (luther) but luther felt sorry for what he became and not the lion defeating him.
> 
> Anyone can dog shot some one thats why I always watch for people in pubs when shit goes down even a seasoned fighter (RUSS) can lose when his back is turned or un awares


He actually beat Luther but couldn't deliver the deathblow and got a sword in the back when his back was turned. Also it was the Chaos Gods who destroyed Caliban with a warp storm that tore the planet apart due to the weakened tectonic crust from the Dark Angels bombardment. Also if you remember Horus was always supposed to be to the greatest warrior amongst the Primarchs and he got his butt kicked by an ascended human with an Anathema. And that Human just had Nurgle powers. Luther got the full Horus (sounds like some sort of penis piercing) which meant he could actually stand against a Primarch. So in effect Lion only lost because somebody gave him the mother of all sucker punches.

Why do so many people comment on the Dark Angels feud and yet don't know anything about how it happened?


----------



## scolatae

Coder59 said:


> He actually beat Luther but couldn't deliver the deathblow and got a sword in the back when his back was turned. Also it was the Chaos Gods who destroyed Caliban with a warp storm that tore the planet apart due to the weakened tectonic crust from the Dark Angels bombardment. Also if you remember Horus was always supposed to be to the greatest warrior amongst the Primarchs and he got his butt kicked by an ascended human with an Anathema. And that Human just had Nurgle powers. Luther got the full Horus (sounds like some sort of penis piercing) which meant he could actually stand against a Primarch. So in effect Lion only lost because somebody gave him the mother of all sucker punches.
> 
> Why do so many people comment on the Dark Angels feud and yet don't know anything about how it happened?


Explain your point my friend. As I recall the Lion Downed Russ when during a break in the duel Russ realised how stupid the argument was and began laughing, the Lion (who as we know never was verey good at reading people) thought Russ was laughing at him and so knocked him cold with a sucker punch.:grin:


----------



## Tuck3r

Serpion5 said:


> Never considered the FFX reference before...
> 
> Horus as Tidus. Emperor as Jecht.
> 
> It kind of fits. The Emp was a pretty arrogant SOB at times. And now he`s dead. Yeah, pretty good fit.


Lol have u ever played FFX...... yeah jecht is Sin.... so yeah he's dead......
and he's still kicking THE WHOLE WORLDS ass.

but yeah he and the emperor are both... "dead":laugh:


----------



## Lucio

Yodhan said:


> Sorry, as a devout Dark Angel fan, I have to go with the Lion. He took out Leman Russ (call it a cheap shot if you want, he knocked him out) and when he went after his best friend, he tore the planet apart taking him down. Pretty baller if you ask me.


I must disagree, as much as I love the Lion to the point my fluff chapter cares more about the Lion than about the Emperor he isn't the best fighter as Luther, who wasnt even a primarch, nearly killed him.

Russ cannot be the best because the Lion knocked him out.
The Lion cannot be because Luther about kills him
Sanguinius cannot be because Horus kills him. 

Horus only got beat by the Emperor though Vulkan maybe since he did fight dragons.


----------



## Baltar

You logic is absolutely crapola.

Russ would trash Lion, absolutely.

Luther tricks the Lion - if it were a stand-up fight, then Lion-el-Johnson would annihilate him completely.

Sanguinius vs Horus is nowhere near as clear-cut as you are making out, for many reasons already pointed out in the thread, which you clearly didn't bother to read.

Vulkan fights dragons?

Have you seen the new Clash of the Titans movie?

Sanguinius fought and killed a giant scorpion in the middle of the desert..... When he was 3 months old....

ALL of the primarchs did EPIC things when they were growing up - there is NO point in picking all individual primarch events like that, because they are all comparable.

TBH, given the background for each primarch, the only two that should be in this running for a straight fight are Sanguinius and Russ. The rest wouldn't touch either of them when it came to a face-to-face rumble.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

The Real Sanguinius said:


> TBH, given the background for each primarch, the only two that should be in this running for a straight fight are Sanguinius and Russ. The rest wouldn't touch either of them when it came to a face-to-face rumble.


Well personally I would factor Horus and Angron into that short list. You can't honestly say that Angron 'wouldn't touch either of them' in a 1v1...! And I would say the poll results generally agree with me; Horus, Angron, Sanguinius and Russ being the top 4.


----------



## Baltar

Ok, so maybe I was a bit hasty there....

I wouldn't factor in Horus - because IMO his personal ability is as an "all rounder". He is a strong leader in warfare, strategy, charisma, etc etc... all of the things that would make an ideal chosen general. I don't think his ability in CC is anything other than phenomenal, like all primarchs - but I think that when compared to Sanguinius, Russ and Angron, who all specialise in CC (it forms the bulk of their ability, so to speak), then he could be beaten. Does that make those three "harder" or "better" - No, I don't think so.

But when it comes to a stand up smash and slash, then I think those three are in the game to the end. I think that it would end up as Sanguinius vs Russ, personally, but I can see Angron being a mentalist.


----------



## Baltar

ROFL I can't believe someone actually voted for Alpharius/Omegon.

Chuckle chuckle. If anything, they would be the first to bite the dust.


----------



## Coder59

scolatae said:


> Explain your point my friend. As I recall the Lion Downed Russ when during a break in the duel Russ realised how stupid the argument was and began laughing, the Lion (who as we know never was verey good at reading people) thought Russ was laughing at him and so knocked him cold with a sucker punch.:grin:


Oh I know :biggrin: I just hate it when people shout that Lion was a pussy for "Losing" to Luther.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

The Real Sanguinius said:


> ROFL I can't believe someone actually voted for Alpharius/Omegon.
> 
> Chuckle chuckle. If anything, they would be the first to bite the dust.


Im inclined to generally agree. Although there is technically two of them, so it would be a kind of handicap match(!)


----------



## Baltar

Yeah, true.

Although, as I recall from "Legion", Alpharius was basically stabbed by that veteran guardsman from the almost-extinct regiment of some sort. I don't care how veteran or pure awesome the guardsman he is supposed to be - getting stabbed by a puny human is absolutely lame, and shows how pure poor Alpharius was.


----------



## scolatae

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Yeah, true.
> 
> Although, as I recall from "Legion", Alpharius was basically stabbed by that veteran guardsman from the almost-extinct regiment of some sort. I don't care how veteran or pure awesome the guardsman he is supposed to be - getting stabbed by a puny human is absolutely lame, and shows how pure poor Alpharius was.


He gave the guardsman (Dina Chayne of the Lucifer Blacks) an inch out of respect and then cut him in half.


----------



## Baltar

"He gave the guardsman an inch"

He got stabbed through the abdomen. That's more than an inch.


----------



## gen.ahab

I want to know why people voted Magnus when there is proof that he isn't. Lol I would agree with Real in that it would be a slug match between Russ and tweety.


----------



## Baltar

^ I agree. We have actuall proof that Russ would smash his face in, and yet people voted him anyway lol.


----------



## Lucio

I disagree with your logic, although it might be the lack of sleep at this point (10 hours in 4 days ftl). Russ landing the first blow and the Lion landed the last. I don't doubt they did great things but when they met certain ones won. The lion lasted years as a baby on a warp-beast flooded death world, mortarion breathed air that should have immediately killed him, etc.


----------



## Baltar

They all did epic things like that -

Sanguinius lasted in the middle of a burning desert full of hideous giant monsters... Russ lasted in the middle of a frozen wasteland... etc etc...

They all did comparable feats when they were growing up - so they aren't really a basis for comparison.


----------



## Voldramar

i voted for Sanguinius, but i think Horus, and Leman would be right behind him. any reason people didnt vote for Fulgrim? he destroyed the Eldar Avitar pretty easily.


----------



## Coder59

Voldramar said:


> i voted for Sanguinius, but i think Horus, and Leman would be right behind him. any reason people didnt vote for Fulgrim? he destroyed the Eldar Avitar pretty easily.


You've got a good point there. I think it's because while he's a powerful opponent the other Primarch's aren't really in awe of his battle prowess. I mean he must be a righteous ass kicker since he's got the highest Primarch kill count of anything in the universe. But then again those Primarchs he killed weren't noted as standing out from their brothers in the CC department. 

Now Fulgrim Vs Sanguinius THAT I would pay to see.


----------



## Baltar

He also killed Guilliman without fighting - he sneaked up behind him and stabbed him with a poisoned blade. Hardly a fair fight is it.

It isn't a fight - it's more murderous.


----------



## Coder59

The Real Sanguinius said:


> He also killed Guilliman without fighting - he sneaked up behind him and stabbed him with a poisoned blade. Hardly a fair fight is it.
> 
> It isn't a fight - it's more murderous.


Are you sure? I thought he just outfought him due to being faster and having four arms at that point. Although I think you might be right I vaguely remember something about him being stabbed from behind in Nightbringer.


----------



## Baltar

He was stabbed without a fight, yeah. It was a cowardly attack - very Slaanesh-esque.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Yeah he didn't sneak up behind him, it was a face on confrontation but then billowing clouds of musk separated the Ultramarines from their Primarch and when the clouds cleared Guilliman was on the ground with a single slash across his throat.


----------



## Baltar

Silly Guilliman.

Pussy deserved it anyway. It's not like he could have put up much of a fight. If anything, Fulgrim just made the inevitable a little more speedy.


----------



## Coder59

Baron Spikey said:


> Yeah he didn't sneak up behind him, it was a face on confrontation but then billowing clouds of musk separated the Ultramarines from their Primarch and when the clouds cleared Guilliman was on the ground with a single slash across his throat.


Am I the only person who finds the idea of Fulgrim's love Musk to be very very disturbing?


----------



## Baltar

Arousing...


----------



## Coder59

You're a bad person and you should feel bad for being aroused by Fulgrim.


----------



## Chaoz94

what about konrad curze?
after all in the lightning king it does say that konrad inflicted wounds that wouldve thriced over killed rogal dorn (surves the yellow basterd, now if only papa smurf were to annoy Konrad...) 
which does go to show that if rogal down was quite strong and konrad curze took him down hed be amongst the best
heres my top 5

Sanguinias, Angron/russ , Konrad,Petrubro/Horus 

my two cents 

chaoz (also im going to go sleep now)


----------



## Chaoz94

Coder59 said:


> You're a bad person and you should feel bad for being aroused by Fulgrim.


going offtopic for a sec
but
i always assumed Fulgrim was aroused by Sanguinias
afterall if Sanguinias is the perfect being hes described too be (and therefore more perfect than Fulgrim) then ofcourse Fulgrim (who isprobably bi ) wouldve been aroused by him......

ok off topic still i hope guilliaman dies 

xD

chaoz


----------



## gen.ahab

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Silly Guilliman.
> 
> Pussy deserved it anyway. It's not like he could have put up much of a fight. If anything, Fulgrim just made the inevitable a little more speedy.


Now now Real, I thought we said no daemon primarchs? lol


----------



## Tuck3r

lol well then again did pepe le deamon really get the job done with gulliman... i mean there are a host of testimonies from ultraqueers and other space marines that guliman is healing inside the stasis field....... just a random coment....


----------



## Baltar

Yeah, but the ultraqueers are wrong. He is not healing in the stasis field - or it isn't much of a stasis field, is it.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Tuck3r said:


> lol well then again did pepe le deamon really get the job done with gulliman... i mean there are a host of testimonies from ultraqueers and other space marines that guliman is healing inside the stasis field....... just a random coment....


except of course it's not the Ultramariens or other Space Marines who say he's healing, it's rather ignorant and hysterical pilgrims who believe that.


----------



## Tuck3r

They all say it because they have no idea and are too short lived for evidence. However, there are a few... An extreme few from other space marines. One of those was Captain... umm... they guy who gave urial ventress comand, and another from a successor chapter... the red ones... sons of orar i thin not sure on the chapter name, but one of their captains visited the shrine as a scout and when asked by a Fanatical Pilgrim addmited that it did Appear that the wound had shrunken a "few Millimeters" in his 600 years or so.



/*edit/* he was asked when he returned upon recieving his captaincy, just for clarification /*edit/*


----------



## raverboi

Sanguinius (my totally unbiased opinion completely not related to the army i collect)

Joking, my vote has to go to the russ man, how many other primarchs have cut the f******g head off a warlord titan with a chainsword?


----------



## Baltar

raverboi said:


> Sanguinius (my totally unbiased opinion completely not related to the army i collect)
> 
> Joking, my vote has to go to the russ man, how many other primarchs have cut the f******g head off a warlord titan with a chainsword?


And where did you read that?


----------



## gazcal

sanguinius is the best as he has wings man and com on he went and fought horus on his own and that takes balls


----------



## Baltar

You've got balls.

I like balls.


----------



## piotrasdabadman91

Horus, hands down, all day, everyday!! Seriously though Horus


----------



## Serpion5

So what if Russ killed ONE titan.

Magnus killed TWO Phantom Titans and a freakin` GARGANT!

Plus, he`s a giant himself!


----------



## gen.ahab

Serpion5 said:


> So what if Russ killed ONE titan.
> 
> Magnus killed TWO Phantom Titans and a freakin` GARGANT!
> 
> Plus, he`s a giant himself!


And then russ beat the royal fuck out of him. :laugh:


----------



## Serpion5

gen.ahab said:


> And then russ beat the royal fuck out of him. :laugh:


Russ is such a bully. Nobody understands Magnus.

btw, Magnus practically gave up on that fight, he was too preoccupied with saving his sons.:clapping:


----------



## Khorne's Fist

I think Night Haunter could be up there. He left Dorn for dead after he attacked him with just his hands and teeth.


----------



## Baltar

The problem with this poll is that there are a few people voting for their favourite primarch rather than the hardest.

In truth, objectively, the hardest are the ones showing up in the poll:

Russ, Sanguinius, Horus, and Angron

Nobody else is even worth a mention IMO. Why people bother voting Magnus I will never know, considering he got bitchslapped by Russ, completely.


----------



## FORTHELION

im not so sure about that. The lion should be up there too but only has four votes. He did bitch slap russ who is up near the top. Admittadly he caught him with a sucker punch while russ was laughing. But we have to remember they where fighting for over a day with no clear sign of a winner. So that means if russ is up near the top then lion being equal to russ should also be there.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Why people bother voting Magnus I will never know, considering he got bitchslapped by Russ, completely.


I think a valid and justified response to that would be that; Magnus was always destined to lose that duel regardless of what happened. I think its perfectly plausable to speculate that Tzeentch may have actually been helping Leman Russ during that duel, protecting him from Magnus' immense psychic abilities so that Magnus would ultimately be forced to transport himself and the remainder of his Legion willingly into the hands of the Lord of Change.

Otherwise Magnus, whose abilities were almost on par with the Emperor's would plausably have liquified Russ. And thats aside from that fact that Magnus could have destroyed Russ and his fleet whilst they were in the Warp heading towards Prospero...


----------



## Baltar

Hmmm.

I have read that the only psyker to come close to the Emperor is Magnus (hence the Emperor's wish for him to be seated upon the golden throne), and then beneath them both: The Sigilite.

So maybe there IS an argument for Magnus to be rated as high as he has been.


----------



## gen.ahab

I was under the impression Russ had a natural resistance to the warp that was bolstered by the runes covering his body and armor.

And why could the emperor not destroy the traitor fleets within the warp if Magnus could have? Couldn't it be that that was simply his hubris talking?


----------



## Baltar

He had his hands full with the open webway, after Magnus ripped it open.


----------



## gen.ahab

Point is I don't think magnus could have actualy destroyed the fleet on his own. Although he could have created storms within the warp and played havoc on the ships I suppose. Lol If the Borders where I live would ever get the damn book I would know more. Lol


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

gen.ahab said:


> I was under the impression Russ had a natural resistance to the warp that was bolstered by the runes covering his body and armor.


That is also plausable. But so is what I theorised. I myself take no clear line, im open to speculation. But what I said in my last post does make more sense in some regards, especially if Tzeentch had the fate of Magnus/Thousand Sons in his grasp all along. It is also vaguely implied by Magnus himself before he duels Russ, "What are you doing?" "What must be done." (or something along those lines). Remembering that according to the Thousand Sons everything is destined and nothing is a coincidence.



gen.ahab said:


> And why could the emperor not destroy the traitor fleets within the warp if Magnus could have? Couldn't it be that that was simply his hubris talking?


Well firstly because psychic abilities manifest themselves in different ways, the Emperor wasn't the master of everything. And also, as _Real_ said throughout pretty much the entire Heresy all of his intellect was focused on the Golden Throne/Imperial Webway.



gen.ahab said:


> Point is I don't think magnus could have actualy destroyed the fleet on his own. Although he could have created storms within the warp and played havoc on the ships I suppose.


If I remember, technically it would have been Magnus enhanced with the Daemons/Tzeentch's power that could have destroyed the Space Wolves' Fleet.


----------



## gen.ahab

With a warp god on his side anything is possible I would think.

As to the psyhic abilities I agree. 

Couldn't it be argued that is would have been better for the gods if magnus had destroyed the wolves? I mean at that time they were looking for the total destruction of the empire were they not? If they were than it would seem as though helping Russ would be counter productive wouldn't it?


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

gen.ahab said:


> Couldn't it be argued that is would have been better for the gods if magnus had destroyed the wolves? I mean at that time they were looking for the total destruction of the empire were they not? If they were than it would seem as though helping Russ would be counter productive wouldn't it?


Not at all. Tzeentch's schemes are infinite and infinitely varied. The Space Wolves were/are inevitably part of some of Tzeentch's schemes, that would have suffered if they were destroyed. He even plots against himself and against Chaos' influence and power in general remember.

Its also an assumption to say that they desired the total destruction of the Imperium.

You could also look at it from another angle, Magnus percieved himself as loyal to the Emperor, but Tzeentch needed to orchestrate a situation where Magnus would willingly give himself to Chaos; his near death at the hands of Russ. The duel between the Crimson and Wolf Kings then could have been said to have been orchestrated by Tzeentch solely to bring Magnus completely under his control.


----------



## gen.ahab

It would seem as though that would have happened even without his involvement. The wolves of fenris had already desimated the sons before the duel didn't they? It would seem tzeentch already had his prize.


----------



## warmaster isaan

i would have to say Russ because he grew up in a place where wolves attacked day and night as well as they have the wulfen beast inside of them to help them bite through steel and stuff like that.
P.S. you spelt Primarch Sanguinius wrong! just to let you know.


----------



## Lux

who to choose as the victor of this fight? Considering that it is an all out free for all? Many factors have to be taken into account.

In the novels it is quoted by horus that he trained all of the primarchs in combat except for the night haunter. Of all those he trained only three bested him in combat, sang, russ, and I do not recall the third.

However what must also be taken into account is that though one is better at hand to hand, it does not mean they are the better combatant. Speed, personality is a big factor, I imagine angron could be taken out early as he would attract the attention of many others and be targeted. 

Horus is great not because he is the strongest, fastest, smartest, but because he is a balanced blend of many aspects. Though not the best in any single dimension he is a mixture of strong traits which in conjunction with one another can out do an individual with a few stronger focused traits rather then balanced spread of traits.

Night haunted is brutal, vicious, fatal, unpredictable, has psyker abilities, pre cog abilities, as well as being able to cloak himself.

Corax is brilliant, a intelligent fighter, tactical, fast, resourceful.

Sang, is fast, highly mobile in open areas, physically monstrously strong.

Fulgrim is noted as being highly finesse in combat, effecient in his movements, deadly, fast.

Angron is brutal, psychotic, impulsive, but these traits would also draw attention to himself.

Alpha/omega are highly covert, manipulative, planning, resourceful, these traits and due to two of them could easily kill another primarch on the field, horus or anyone included.

Rob is another example of a well blended primarch who is nicely balanced in stats and traits, he is like a mirror image of horus, except where horus would be superior in manipulative charisma, rob would superior in direct combat strategy.

Mort is highly ressilient, fortitude, can out last his opponent, to poison the battle field which would do little to him but weaken the opponent.

Jonson great in single combat, finesse, tactful, strong, skilled, but weak due to his personality of honor which can limit him, as well as fighting multiple opponents simultaneusly.

Well I'm not going to do all 18 but you get the idea.


----------



## Lux

who to choose as the victor of this fight? Considering that it is an all out free for all? Many factors have to be taken into account.

In the novels it is quoted by horus that he trained all of the primarchs in combat except for the night haunter. Of all those he trained only three bested him in combat, sang, russ, and I do not recall the third.

However what must also be taken into account is that though one is better at hand to hand, it does not mean they are the better combatant. Speed, personality is a big factor, I imagine angron could be taken out early as he would attract the attention of many others and be targeted. 

Horus is great not because he is the strongest, fastest, smartest, but because he is a balanced blend of many aspects. Though not the best in any single dimension he is a mixture of strong traits which in conjunction with one another can out do an individual with a few stronger focused traits rather then balanced spread of traits.

Night haunted is brutal, vicious, fatal, unpredictable, has psyker abilities, pre cog abilities, as well as being able to cloak himself.

Corax is brilliant, a intelligent fighter, tactical, fast, resourceful.

Sang, is fast, highly mobile in open areas, physically monstrously strong.

Fulgrim is noted as being highly finesse in combat, effecient in his movements, deadly, fast.

Angron is brutal, psychotic, impulsive, but these traits would also draw attention to himself.

Alpha/omega are highly covert, manipulative, planning, resourceful, these traits and due to two of them could easily kill another primarch on the field, horus or anyone included.

Rob is another example of a well blended primarch who is nicely balanced in stats and traits, he is like a mirror image of horus, except where horus would be superior in manipulative charisma, rob would superior in direct combat strategy.

Mort is highly ressilient, fortitude, can out last his opponent, to poison the battle field which would do little to him but weaken the opponent.

Jonson great in single combat, finesse, tactful, strong, skilled, but weak due to his personality of honor which can limit him, as well as fighting multiple opponents simultaneusly.

Well I'm not going to do all 18 but you get the idea.


----------



## Baltar

Sanguinius is precognitive, too.


----------



## gen.ahab

And the lion was probably the single most brilliant tactician in the group..... well at the very least tied with Papa Smurf.


----------



## deathwatch_v

and also guys in an 18... 20 way brawl i think the out come would be different to 1v1 (which was the original question  ) 

In a 18/20 way royal rumble i would say that the smart primarchs would work together to take out the stronger brawler primarchs first and then back themselves against the not so good fighters. You can imagine Fulgrim and Ferrus taking down Angron, and alpha/omega jumping on sagin's wings as Vulkan gives him a round house kick to the face . So i think that a rumble wouldn't show off the primarchs true abilities in the area of close combat (its more who gets hit by the chair first). So i think its fair if its 1 v 1.

P.S. come on people, Ferrus Manus with 0  i would think him better than some of the primarchs....he does have metal hands lol.


----------



## gen.ahab

Well I though you just wanted the best. Hmmm did any of the other primarchs like the lion? H may be fucked in that regard. Lol


----------



## deathwatch_v

gen.ahab said:


> Well I though you just wanted the best. Hmmm did any of the other primarchs like the lion? H may be fucked in that regard. Lol


Dont get me wrong i do gen, but if you let people play with vaiables like "it was all 18 of them in 1 ring" or " Mortarion would have been given super uber acid by nurgle so he wins" then the whole thread gets taken up by people arguing about stuff that can never resolved (however cool those huge suped up fights maybe).

I dunno i started this thread to see everyones opinion on who out of the 18 was the best 1 v 1 without the help of chaos...straight out the tube so to speak .

I have loved every post so far, this thread is really interesting


----------



## Baltar

All in one ring?

Sanguinius wins.

Just fucking flies into the air.

Or maybe Magnus - just makes the ring explode and kill everyone except himself (and Sanguinius).


----------



## elkhantar

Yep, in an all vs all Sang can get out of the main fray and wait up in the air till there are few remaining; the most subtle would avoid most of the combat too, and Magnus can simply blow everyone with his mind, so things would change a lot. Angron and Russ would probably go down early, directly taking the closest/strongest one around, but hey, they would go down badass style


----------



## gen.ahab

And Russ. Lol isn't effected by warp remember? Don't know if that is a shared trait but until anything comes out I would think it is just him. 
Lol I just had the whole scene play out in my head. Tweety( sang) is flying over everyone and notices that he can't see Cruze and they are just in a room with a huge roof.
(flaping over the group of fighting primarchs) sang: hey.... Where is cruze?( looks up)
cruze: Alalalalalalalal! (falls from the ceiling and takes out tweety)


----------



## dark angel

Sanguinius was an idiot though. He could see into the future, yet never knew that Ka'Bandha was going to beat his arse down? So very good, isn't he?......In Collected Visions, he tells Ka'Bandha to get out of the way so that he can get himself to Kyriss The Perverse, who Sanguinius wants to kill because the Slaaneshi Daemon showed itself in his Chambers. Ka'Bandha, if he had not hesitated at Terra, would have killed Sanguinius right there....

TheRealSanguinius; Are you just continuing to post on this thread to get your love for your namesake across? It seems that way to be, although I may be wrong...


----------



## Baltar

His visions of the future were just that - foresight. It wasn't _real_ precognition.

The _only_ primarch capable of that was Magnus. The difference is accute.

One is having "flashbacks", except of the future. The other is actually knowing events before they happen, like the Corvidae can.

Sanguinius had the former ability - Magnus had the latter.

So basing an argument of Sanguinius being stupid because he "knew what was going to happen and did nothing about it", is inaccurate. No more simple way to put it than that.


----------



## gen.ahab

No, tweety knew that if he went into the..... I forgot the name of the damn ship but he knew he would die.


----------



## Baltar

Yes, he saw himself dying in a vision he had of the future. He couldn't actually understand events of things around him like Magnus could. No dodging bullets etc, or anything like that.


----------



## deathbringer

Sanguinius has wings big woop... have a thunderbolt in the ass from magnus or a bolt round from russ

Sang can sit in the air all day but when he actually dives to meet russ russ will kick the shit out of him

If we are being this technical about it than the best is Corax, with his invisibility
You cant fricking see me, bring it on...


----------



## Baltar

Quote one single source that states that Corax is invisible.

IIRC there was only one article of text describing an invisible primarch, and it did not specify which one it was that had the ability - it's been suggested that it could have been one of the two missing primarchs.

It certainly wasn't Corax.


----------



## dark angel

It was Corax actually. If I remember correctly, in Ravens Flight, he moves across the battlefield undetected.....Pretty much invisibilty.


----------



## Baltar

That is not invisibility.

Otherwise Aplharius/Omegon are invisible. Night Haunter, too.

There is mention of a literally invisible primarch, in an old SM codex. It's probably quotable, too.

It was not Corax, or any of the 18 discovered primarchs.


----------



## Baltar

Right here, in fact.

With the source available :grin:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions

Not Corax.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Some people seem to assume that Sanguinius having wings makes him an automatic winner. Having the ability to fly isn't really a trump card when your up against other Primarchs, it may be a small advantage yes, but certainly isn't a trump card.



gen.ahab said:


> And the lion was probably the single most brilliant tactician in the group..... well at the very least tied with Papa Smurf.


Controversial 



gen.ahab said:


> And Russ. Lol isn't effected by warp remember? Don't know if that is a shared trait but until anything comes out I would think it is just him.


I think it would be safer to assume that all the Primarchs had some innate resistance to warp energy, rather than it just being Russ.



The Real Sanguinius said:


> Quote one single source that states that Corax is invisible.
> 
> IIRC there was only one article of text describing an invisible primarch, and it did not specify which one it was that had the ability - it's been suggested that it could have been one of the two missing primarchs.
> 
> It certainly wasn't Corax.


_Raven's Flight_ explains that Corax is able to cloud the minds of people nearby in order to bring about the illusion of him being invisible. Its not invisibility per se, but its as good as.

And its widely assumed that this was a 'nod' at the other fluff source (_Codex: Imperialis_ I believe) which claimed one Primarch may have had the ability of invisibility.


----------



## Baltar

Ahhh, so the one of very few clues we HAD about the missing primarchs was snatched away. By one of the absolutely shite audio books, too, nonetheless.

Disappointing.


----------



## Katie Drake

Yeah, Corax can walk right by guards and even get people to dismiss auspex readings revealing his presence. That's invisibility.


----------



## Baltar

I wish I could detect sarcasm in text.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Fulgrim. He killed an Avatar of Khaine in single combat, very very few have ever done that and even fewer did it without crippling wounds. Plus he killed Ferrus Manus in single combat, besting a Primarch that no others had done before, twice. Besides he was perfect... except for the daemonic corruption thing.

And if not Fulgrim then Sanguinius.


----------



## Baltar

Is a bloodthirster harder than an avatar?

I don't remember...

How about a bloodthirster that's 3 times the size of the more 'commonplace' bloodthirster? Might this creature be harder than an avatar?

I wonder where I might be going with this......


----------



## Katie Drake

Lord of the Night said:


> Fulgrim. He killed an Avatar of Khaine in single combat, very very few have ever done that and even fewer did it without crippling wounds.


Dude, come on. Marneus Calgar killed an Avatar with a single punch in the gut.


----------



## Lux

One versus one of the primarchs does little to show their true abilities unless your doing an analysis of every possible primarch vs primarch match up.

Such as:
Sang vs night haunted
Sang vs horus
Sang vs khan
Etc. And such forth for every primarch vs every other primarch.

Due to personality differences, traits, styles, weapon preferences, combat doctrine, there is no A>B>all the remaining rest. Horus may defeat lion in a duel of 1v1 uninterupted, but the lion likely would destroy horus in a squad v squad battle or a fleet skirmish.

Similarily, horus would likely be anihilated in a duel with night haunter due to horus's primary strength psychological understanding and manipulation of it, having little to no effect on the genius by insanity konrad, as well as his unorthodox thought patterns and unsurpassed understanding and wielding of psychological warfare.

Which is why in a 18 way brawl of a huge battlefield with cover, and multiple terrains, resources to utilize, every primarch can shine equally.


----------



## Baltar

Wow, getting killed by Calgar. Now that is perhaps the very definition of lameness.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Is a bloodthirster harder than an avatar?
> 
> I don't remember...
> 
> How about a bloodthirster that's 3 times the size of the more 'commonplace' bloodthirster? Might this creature be harder than an avatar?
> 
> I wonder where I might be going with this......


Somewhere you've already been before


----------



## ckcrawford

I always thought of Corax's "invisibility" as more of a "ignoration trait."


----------



## Baltar

You mean he's that lame everyone just ignores him?

Sounds about right.

Better just let him run off to cry about how he failed GCSE biology and fucked up all of his cloning experiments.


----------



## gen.ahab

@CotE, I don't believe it would since both the lion and Horus were taken down by psykic attacks. Since we have no other cases in which primarchs ignored psykic attacks I would think that it would be safer to assume that they don't unless there is evidence proves that it is a group trait.


----------



## LimitingFactor

With psychic powers allowed then Magnus could win this by boiling the blood of whichever poor sod was put up against him. Then simply rend the victim apart atom by atom in a second or two.

Otherwise Alpharius and Omegon as there are two of them and they are very clever...


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

gen.ahab said:


> @CotE, I don't believe it would since both the lion and Horus were taken down by psykic attacks. Since we have no other cases in which primarchs ignored psykic attacks I would think that it would be safer to assume that they don't unless there is evidence proves that it is a group trait.


Indeed.

Im still skeptical though about accepting Russ as an anomaly among the Primarchs in this case. Firstly because Russ didn't necessarily have an innate psychic resistance, that is an assumption in itself. There are countless reasons and theories you could postulate as to why Magnus' abilities didn't seem to have that much effect on Russ.


----------



## Baltar

It is stated in quite a few places that the primarchs were created from the essence of the warp itself, by the Emperor. I know that this in itself doesnt suggest that they would have an innate resistance to the warp or warp-based powers, but it would fit fairly well to say that it's possible that wall of the primarchs would have such a resistance.


----------



## Lucio

I thought they were genetic creations?


----------



## scolatae

The Real Sanguinius said:


> You mean he's that lame everyone just ignores him?
> 
> Sounds about right.
> 
> Better just let him run off to cry about how he failed GCSE biology and fucked up all of his cloning experiments.


Whoa!! I agree that in a straight fight sanguinius would win (though not by much) but don't rag Corax, at least he was still around to fuck up that particular experiment and hadn't been stupid/brave/noble/unfortunate enough to fight daemon Horus. Oh and I think he can be excused that particular mistake as no one else before him, not even the emperor, had tried to clone astartes before.


----------



## deathbringer

The Real Sanguinius said:


> You mean he's that lame everyone just ignores him?
> 
> Sounds about right.
> 
> Better just let him run off to cry about how he failed GCSE biology and fucked up all of his cloning experiments.


Teah dont rag Corax, raven flight was shit but Corax wasn't

I still maintain if it was a royal rumble with angron and russ in the mix I'd rather be bloody invisible.

Overall I'd go russ, my corax comment was more to say that you are reading far far too much into sangs wings, each primarch has a trait that makes him nigh on invincible.

As for your argument, he took on a bloodthirster, Russ took on Magnus and won, though i say he got lucky. So did Fulgrim and Horus but you could say the power of chaos swelled there powers.

Thus I have to go with Russ

As I said before, the space wolves are an anti astartes legion, QED Russ is an anti primarch primarch


----------



## Baltar

The anti-astartes legion argument is poor and tenuous, IMO.

If the Emperor had sent any strong legion against the 1ksons with a bunch of custodes and sisters of silence as company, then the battle would still have been just as savage, and would have punished the 1ksons just as much.

I can imagine any of the other legions slaughtering them just as much, if not with slightly different nuances in their tactics.


----------



## gen.ahab

Well, if abnett says that they are the anti-Astartes legion I am inclined to believe the man. Another thing, no legion other than the world eaters could ever come close to the brutality of the Wolves and that is without the wolves pure hatred of the Sons.


----------



## Baltar

> no legion other than the world eaters could ever come close to the brutality of the Wolve


Must not have read the BA codex, then.....


----------



## gen.ahab

Nothing compaired to the wolves. Out of the loyalist legions the wolves have no equal in utter brutality. Lol


----------



## Baltar

Except for the blood angels, of course.


----------



## Tuck3r

But then again the ability to actually think does help....

And i've got a question are any of the primarchs described as carrying a shield but dorn.
*dorkness alert* i larp and my nation has about 35 ppl all gabed in spartan gear and those 4.5 foot shields make a HUGEMONGOUS difference so.....


----------



## Baltar

I don't think wargear makes a difference here.

They are primarchs, so just assume they are allowed any primarch-portable kit they want.


----------



## gen.ahab

No, the blood angels arn't nearly as brutal in combat as the wolves. And the wolves can think. Lol saying that they can't is just moronic. Lol


----------



## ckcrawford

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Except for the blood angels, of course.


You should provide some evidence then. I doubt that the Blood Angels are considered "brutal" by vocabulary terms as much as the Space Wolves. There are different types of ways and terms of describing violence. Are the Blood Angels violent? Absolutely. But "brutal" means "savagely violent." And savage means "of an animal or force of nature, fierce, violent, and uncontrolled." And of course the Space Wolves are animalistic by nature through their genetics. So I think its fair enough to say that the "brutality" of the wolves is unmatched. 

The World Eaters and Blood Angels, I would go by the description on the Word Eaters in battle of the Abyss. "Wrathful." I believe this word describes both of them the same now. Before the Blood Angels were cursed with Black Rage and the Thirst I would have described them as a more controlled anger and rage.


----------



## Baltar

> No, the blood angels arn't nearly as brutal in combat as the wolves


In your opinion. Not one shared by anyone else, so far.

EDIT: Damn, beaten to the punch.

I'm not going to argue the point, because arguing that BA aren't brutal is like saying that it's difficult to drown in an ocean because there isn't enough water.


----------



## Tuck3r

You'd think so but our own guy uses a spear which naturally would give him reach on Lion who's prefered sword is much shorter while also considerably more leathal if he gets in range. and never underestimate the awesomeness of a shield kneel and throw a shield over your head. especially if its low slung and god help us if its got the powerfield like the storm shields that would esentially force the great angel to land for any type of attack he wanted to lanch... this here is a whole aspect to the fight that's been greatly overlooked.


----------



## Baltar

Yes, but my point is that they can change their wargear whenever they want. So before any fight, if they know that their opponent is going to use a shield, they can just grab a shield. They are a primarch - it's not as though they have any problems getting hold of gear.


----------



## ckcrawford

gen.ahab said:


> No, the blood angels arn't nearly as brutal in combat as the wolves. And the wolves can think. Lol saying that they can't is just moronic. Lol


Yes and no I would say. I think that compared to a lot of close quarters type combat legions, they definitely are smart about how they fight. The last battle of the Dominion of Fire for example was a good show to how they used their range ability instead of just charging like idiots into the storm horde of Angron. In A Thousand Son, the way they attacked the Titans with their rocket launchers instead of charging the thing like a moron. However though their combat smarts are good I think in general their animalistic fury is unstable and definitely effects their intelligence by making them do things that I would say aren't so smart. Kind of like heat of the moment. The sudden attack on the Thousand Sons was redicolous. They attacked another legion which was unheard of at the time in the part where Magnus was trying to defend the library. That was just insane, if he had killed Magnus he would have definitely had to suffer consequences by the emperor. Secondly, the Wolves invasion of Magnus' planet was though triumphet, not so smart. If Magnus had really manned the defences they would have been obliterated to an oblivion. Theres even fair speculation that the gods could have destroyed them before reaching the planet. 

:stop:But I don't think they are that smart to say to say anything other is "moronic." Sure one could see how the space wolves have and will probably always make lots of rash decision.


----------



## Baltar

For now, post "A Thousand Sons" and "Prospero Burns", everyone will be frothing at the mouth, raging on about how lethal and "brutal" the SW's are.

They will go through each chapter in turn, and each will get their share of mouth-foaming fans.

And then they will get to the BA part of the HH series, the cleansing of Signus, and we will go through the whole same experience then, too. Everyone will read how the entire chapter goes mental and tears through a whole world of daemons, and will start mouth-frothing about how they are so brutal, too.

Swings and roundabouts.

To single out one chapter as the most brutal is lame, and inaccurate, too.


----------



## ckcrawford

The Real Sanguinius said:


> In your opinion. Not one shared by anyone else, so far.
> 
> EDIT: Damn, beaten to the punch.
> 
> I'm not going to argue the point, because arguing that BA aren't brutal is like saying that it's difficult to drown in an ocean because there isn't enough water.


You should have no problem defend this argument then. In Battle of the Abyss, the comparrison of the Wolves to the World Eaters was considerably different. Animal Rage and Fury is definitly different from rage and fury produced from a murderous one. The space wolves brutality is unthinkable as no other legion mutated to have animal instinct. 

And that other guy explain his view points. They are a view by the Black Library writer themselves. Maybe thats why no one else is agreeing with him. Its almost common knowledge. Watch the first twenty seconds of this.








The Real Sanguinius said:


> Yes, but my point is that they can change their wargear whenever they want. So before any fight, if they know that their opponent is going to use a shield, they can just grab a shield. They are a primarch - it's not as though they have any problems getting hold of gear.


They could... however unlikely. Primarchs tend to be very prideful and tend to go into battle with their "trademark" wargear. An excepetion to would probably be Fulgrim's possessed sword. But thats because its power was calling him.


----------



## Baltar

Yes, thanks for proving my point entirely. I'm not sure an author hyping his own work is going to cut it for the sake of argument.

Mouth foaming about a current book is pointless - considering that the exact same thing will happen for each and every major event concerning a particularly badass chapter in the coming series.

As I said, you are going to get the same thing happen when the world eaters go to town, and the same thing again when the BA go apeshit on Signus.


----------



## gen.ahab

Did I say they were not violent? No I did not. Ckcrawford hit the nail right on the head. Lol oh and ck, rage would not actualy effect their raw intellect, merely their self-control.


----------



## Baltar

> The space wolves brutality is unthinkable as no other legion mutated to have animal instinct.


Utter rubbish.

There are stories of the world eaters arriving and butchering whole worlds in days, just to cause shear terror.

Generalising that one chapter is "more brutal" just because one book about that chapter came out recently is lame.

More books will come out, and the same things will happen again. The perspective will change entirely. Each chapter (just as the SW are now) will get the spotlight, and then the opinions about brutality will sway around all over the place.

Basing it all on Abnett's inane dribble about HIS OWN BOOK is really quite stupid. As if he is going to say anything else about the chapter he himself is going to be selling books about.


----------



## ckcrawford

I also provided another source to why you should not relate the Wolves to the Blood Angels. Battle of the Abyss. But its cool if you dismissed that. To compare an animal to a murderer is not accurate at all. Animals kill because they feel threatened, blood thirsty killers kill for the mere joy of it.


----------



## Baltar

Brutality is a word that is not mutually exclusive to either one of those types of killer - so it's not really relevant.


----------



## gen.ahab

@Real
They may get the spot light but the dynamics of the legion and how they fight won't change with that attention. BAs are violent but notsavage like the space wolves. When space wolves fight they do it with tooth and nail leaving little to nothing left alive. BA are more elegant, this I will admit.


----------



## Baltar

They lose all control and bathe themselves in blood. Some of them drink it. Many of them have fangs - canines.

How much more feral and savage do you want...

This is all a load bull - just hype due to the recent writings about the SW. As the attention shifts, so will oppinions.


----------



## deathbringer

Sorry but The real Sanguinius you are the only person yet to provide any proof of sangs martial prowess except he killed a pretty bad ass blood letter. You just shoot down all points in a blind zeal.

Well Russ bested a primarch... point countered

Blood angels have the black rage... well Sang never would have struggled against that as it is caused by the psychological imprint of his death.. point countered

Red thirst...the unyielding desire for blood sounds alot like the curse of the wulfen to me.. point countered... plus it is never reported that Sanguinis himself suffered from the red thirst and it is possible the geneseed taken from him was flawed though sang himself was unaffected. Even if he was afflicted he and Russ both held the flaws in because to succumb to them was to loose ones soul... point countered

Russ knocked out in one punch byJohnson, its well known Russ was laughing and his guard was down and thus the Lion had rage and the time to pick his spot and unleash hell. Give me time, 20 years of weight training, steroids and martial arts and ill knock out tyson.

Russ a primarch killer... Abnett is a respected writer and his word in online interviews is often used as part of fluff. Thus I would say what he says goes

May I just add if a writer says in the release of the next book the World Eaters were created to destroy another legion I'll happily give you 100 quid, kiss ur ass and retract my remark.

Space wolves live a life of combat and brawling, fights erupt all the time whilst the world is harsh and their recruits are picked through combat, see space wolf omnibus. Only the best are picked. Leman russ two was raised by wolves he is feral animalistic in his desire for death and to my mind only Angron could match his ferocity.

I'm actually loving this debate

EDIT: I think this post sounds a bit agressive, apologies i quell my feral zeal


----------



## ckcrawford

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Brutality is a word that is not mutually exclusive to either one of those types of killer - so it's not really relevant.


I beg to differ because they are different types of killers. I just explained it countless times. Blood Angels are not animals. They just aren't. Brutality is a word used to describe the Wolves because they have animalistic tendencies. They have been known to kill both friend and foe alike. To put the wolves and blood angels in the same category is insane. The blood angels are known for their blood thirst in combat. They put their abilities in defeating enemies as the Wolves kill everyone who disagrees with them. Thousand Sons in A Thousand Sons even when they were loyal, eldar allies over 1 mistranslation of a word, civilian populations that have disagreed with them "Wolf at the Door" in Tales Of Heresy, Grey Knights and Inquisition after whipping out and putting all the soldiers who fought against chaos into slavery. I have never heard of the Blood Angels openly defying their allies in combat or attacking civilian populations not even in omnibous. If anything they have been known to try to put their abilities in control and unleashing their muderous rage in combat. As I have stated in my first post.


----------



## Baltar

It wasn't a blood letter.

It was a bloodthirster. It wasn't just _any_ bloodthirster. It was the highest champion of Khorne: IE: There is no warrior fighting in the name of Khorne that is more powerful than that bloodthirster. It is described as being 3 times the size and power of a normal thirster.

This argument is pointless for the reasons I pointed out:

As soon as the cleansing of Signus arrives, we will have people bleating on about how OSSUM the BA's are. For now we just have people bleating on about how OSSUM the SW's are, because a thousand sons just came out.

As I said, swings and roundabouts.

To pick out one legion as "the most brutal" is unvelievable stupid.

And if I were to do so, it would definitely be the world eaters. Not the SW's. They are simply feral. Being disorderly is not the same as being brutal.


----------



## Baltar

> Blood Angels are not animals. They just aren't.


So succumbing to the black rage and coating yourself in the blood of your enemies, or even drinking it, is not animalistic? Growing huge canines like a vampire is just plain old civilized, I take it?

EDIT:

I think we may also be overlooking another chapter particularly famed for brutality - Flesh Tearers.

I'd love to hear someone's half-witted argument that SW's are more "brutal" than the Flesh Tearers... please? :grin:


----------



## gen.ahab

I am talking about the chapter norms not fringe groups. I don't assume all ba take baths in the blood of their enemies on a regular basis.

Flesh Tearers arn't a legion. After heresy remember?


----------



## Baltar

gen.ahab said:


> I am talking about the chapter norms not fringe groups. I don't assume all ba take baths in the blood of their enemies on a regular basis.
> 
> Flesh Tearers arn't a legion. After heresy remember?


Lol, fringe groups. I'm not even sure where that's coming from. That's like me saying that I assume all SW's don't become feral animals. Read the BA codex. I was planning on going through it and counting how many times the words "savage" and "brutal" appear, and then doing the same with the SW codex. But I CBA. I know it would be comparable, despite the SW codex being a whole lot thicker.

Flesh tearers are a BA successor - so any traits they have, then the BA have pre-heresy. Fact.

And the flesh tearers are perhaps one of the most totally savage chapters that there are.


----------



## gen.ahab

Ah yes..... Because the mortifactors are identical in every way to the ultramarines. You are right. Lol and no. Not all SWs go totaly apeshit in the middle of the fight THAT would be the wulfen or the blood claws. Lol don't get me wrong they are all savage fighters but they don't all go completely feral.


----------



## Baltar

I didn't say they were identical. I said that _any_ trait that the Flesh Tearers have came from the BA's. Each successor chapters shares it's traits with the first founding chapter - where the first founding chapter is an even blend of all of them.


----------



## gen.ahab

They didn't have the red thirst or the black rage pre-heresy though. That was the main point. Lol


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

The Real Sanguinius said:


> The anti-astartes legion argument is poor and tenuous, IMO.
> 
> If the Emperor had sent any strong legion against the 1ksons with a bunch of custodes and sisters of silence as company, then the battle would still have been just as savage, and would have punished the 1ksons just as much.
> 
> I can imagine any of the other legions slaughtering them just as much, if not with slightly different nuances in their tactics.


Theres a very good comparison that Ahriman makes in _A Thousand Sons_, he refers to the Space Wolves as golems (page 155-6): 

"...single-minded determination."
"...never let up, never stopped to question, and would never, ever, falter in his duty."
"...obeyed its master's instructions absolutely literally, never deviating from its task, no matter what."
"The sons of Russ were weapons, a consummate force for destruction that absolutely would not stop until the job was done."

It was this utter sense of devotion and determination that made Russ the obvious choice (his hatred of Magnus aside for a moment) for subduing Magnus and Prospero. It may also reinforce the implication that the Space Wolves were maintained as an Anti-Astartes Legion. Would any other Legion have fought so savagely or willingly against a brother Legion? Would any other Primarch have had the will and determination to take on one of his brothers? Probably not.

Actually as for the Wolves being an Anti-Astartes Legion, well nothing of note was mentioned in _A Thousand Sons_, and we only have Abnett's vague comment to go off currently. Im personally waiting for _Prospero Burns_ until I draw any solid conclusions.


----------



## IntereoVivo

Alpharius Omegon would always win. 

He/They never enter a fight they have not already won.


----------



## Tuck3r

lol everyone's so angry lol:angry:

back to deathbringer he seems the most sane at this point

k

Space wolves live a life of combat and brawling, fights erupt all the time whilst the world is harsh and their recruits are picked through combat, see space wolf omnibus. Only the best are picked. Leman russ two was raised by wolves he is feral animalistic in his desire for death and to my mind only Angron could match his ferocity.

The space wolf initiats are picked after battles and thrown into training together after the choosers of the slain find them and stitch them back together similar to the valkeries of norse myth

The Blood angels have their potentials march through a deasert (fenris without all the water) filled with gigantic fire scorpions(wolves... see a common theme here) to a stadium then they throw them into a battle royal and those ppl who come out alive are the best who are then shipped to baal to be insanguinated...unless they are genetically unable t become blood angels then they are sent back to guard the stadium or work on in the fleet that type thing.

and as to Russ being a primarch killer he is still at a disadvantage while admitedly not a big one... to the great angel. As Russ's biggest advantages that point towards his being a primarch killer are his inherent resistance to psyker attacks which sanguinus doesn't use. not sure where russ is described as strong but in horus rising sanguinus is described as having strength exceeding that of many other primarchs and as it has been pointed out he is more elegand allowing his cool head to search for an oppening in Russ's animalistic fury...

k now can we move past arguing of who's more brutal cause its the same argument as whats worse a vampire or werewolf and i'm really tired of twilight ruining things today:grin:


----------



## gen.ahab

Never compaire the wolves to gay native Americans. Lol
edit: not saying hat native Americans are gay just that the twilight ones are.


----------



## gen.ahab

IntereoVivo said:


> Alpharius Omegon would always win.
> 
> He/They never enter a fight they have not already won.


Then explain how he got bitchslaped by papa smurf.( I say he because we don't know which one got whooped.) lol


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## ckcrawford

Regarding the Flesh Terror and eating flesh, they actually do that for a reason. In fact many chapters as well as the legions are known to do this. As they can tell a lot about how long the flesh was dead, who, what. Its more strategical than "Animalistic." The Son's of Malice were thrown out as renegade for this. The Imperial Fists and Salamanders could also do this, but they ussually take this trait out during the final stages of becoming an astartes. Its called Omophagea. Commonly know as the "learn by eating" trait. 

And no I would not say that bathing in blood is animalistic. Not in the most grotesque movie have I ever seen an animal bathe in blood. Animals don't kill to just kill, its a natural instinct whether its for food, self defense, competition. Vampires can hardly be considered animals if thats what you'd like to compare Blood Angels to. They are cursed blood thirsty (literally) freaks of nature. Key word there is cursed.


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## slave child

its hard to say between angron, lion el'johnson, horus or sanguinius. if its before the heresy and the traitor primarchs arent beefed up by the chaos gods then i gotta say angron.


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## ckcrawford

Im surprised that Ferrus Manus doesn't have any votes. 
Probably because he doesnt have the most popular legion and he was the first primarch to die. But If Fulgrim is one of the better primarchs hand to hand and Fulgrim basically won that fight when the daemon in his sword granted him power than Ferrus shouldn't be that far away from him in ranking. Considering Ferrus Manus.


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## Tuck3r

lol i wasn't comparing vampires to animals. i was comparing the BA vs SW argument to the Vampire vs Werewolf argument.... cause really if there are vampires and werewolfs close enough to be fighting only the insane retarded or really Really REALLY big gamers will be anywhere near by


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## ckcrawford

reffering to the last statement by the real sanguinous


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## deathbringer

The Real Sanguinius said:


> As soon as the cleansing of Signus arrives, we will have people bleating on about how OSSUM the BA's are. For now we just have people bleating on about how OSSUM the SW's are, because a thousand sons just came out.
> 
> As I said, swings and roundabouts.
> 
> To pick out one legion as "the most brutal" is unvelievable stupid.
> 
> And if I were to do so, it would definitely be the world eaters. Not the SW's. They are simply feral. Being disorderly is not the same as being brutal.


I abhor the space wolves and collect blood angels whilst the thousand sons are my favourite legion so dont piss me off by saying I'm bleating. Quite simply it offends me because im being as understanding as possible, trying to quote and riposte to points quoting valid sources not interjecting Space wolves are cool... so dont patronize me

Every legion has its own trials, I'm just saying the wolves are born for combat quite simply as my argument I'm going to quote Tarrik Torgaddon in Horus rising in his battle of words between him and the imperial fists

p132

"Are we going to scrap about it now? Argue which legion is the toughest?"

"The answer is the wolves of Fenris because they are clinically insane"

He says it in jest yet no one argues with his point

@tuck3r Just been checking for horus's description of sang

d to be momentarily perturbed by her question, but said, 'Sanguinius. It should 
have been him. He has the vision and strength to carry us to victory, and the wisdom to rule once that victory is won. For all his aloof coolness, he alone has the Emperor's soul in his blood.

Not his strength in combat but his mental strength and his ability to rule

Thanks however I regularly question my sanity


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## IntereoVivo

gen.ahab said:


> Then explain how he got bitchslaped by papa smurf.( I say he because we don't know which one got whooped.) lol


Maybe I should have said "for a given value of win". The only reason he "lost" was to allow the rest of his plans to go smoothly. Sounds like winning to me.


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## gen.ahab

Except for the dying part that is? lol


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## IntereoVivo

gen.ahab said:


> Except for the dying part that is? lol


Did he die? If so, which one died? Most people consider him dead, but thats what he'd want them to think.


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## gen.ahab

I believe they recovered the corpse of one of the two. Don't know which.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

gen.ahab said:


> I believe they recovered the corpse of one of the two. Don't know which.


No, no corpse was recovered. In fact the Ultramarines themselves are highly skeptical about Guilliman killing Alpharius (let alone Omegon, considering they don't know about him).

Its generally assumed that Alpharius 'faked' his death to ultimately prove himself and his Legion's flexibility, independence and multitudinous tactics as superior to Roboute's and the Ultramarine's methodical and rigid adherence to the teachings of their Primarch (soon to become the Codex, if it wasn't completed by this point already).

Alpharius proved this, even with the apparent death of their Primarch the Alpha Legion still triumphed over the Ultramarines, and the Ultramarines were forced to retreat. As well as to prove a point, Alpharius' 'death' of which the account comes from Inquisitor Kravin, is largely considered to have just been a ploy to plant misinformation in Imperial records.

Its therefore more probable (at least in my eyes) that both Alpharius and Omegon survived the Battle for Eskrador.


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## Baltar

I think that people have a view of the SW that is all wrong. People seem to see them as animals - after reading A Thousand Sons, I would say that they were far far far more sane than people give them credit for. I would say that they were less akin to an animal, and more akin to a hunter, with the instincts of an animal.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

The Real Sanguinius said:


> I think that people have a view of the SW that is all wrong. People seem to see them as animals - after reading A Thousand Sons, I would say that they were far far far more sane than people give them credit for. I would say that they were less akin to an animal, and more akin to a hunter, with the instincts of an animal.


I don't think anyone has explicity portrayed that view, but even if they had its not entirely inaccurate. The Space Wolves are brutal and efficient, their geneseed bears the curse of the wulfen, they don themselves in fetishes and talismans, and come across as very ignorant (at least in _A Thousand Sons_) and barbaric. Describing them as 'animalistic' is not really inaccurate at all. But that having been said, the term 'animalistic' is not necessarily negative, they are fierce and determined warriors, one of the more humane Astartes Chapters and are fiercely loyal.

In Abnett's own words the Space Wolves are 'particularly dangerous', 'ruthless, savage and brutal'. 

And 'why would the Emperor permit something quite so dangerous and untamed to exist?'

I think its relatively easy therefore to conclude that they are animalistic.


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## deathwatch_v

To deny that the SW's are animalistic is IMO wrong. They are clearly related to wolves in the way they do things. Thats not to say they arn't smart or good at what they do. Wolves on our planet are some of the best hunters ever to have existed, working together to bring down big, hard to catch game.

Any smart commander would assimilate techniques that work, and Leman Russ does this with his legion closely following wolf characteristics. Where do you think humans learned some of the early hunting techniques...hunting in packs/ambush tactics...these came from animals like wolves.

BA's are wrathful/strong/intelligent killers. I like the comparison to Vampires (not the pussy Twilight crap, proper depictions of vampires), extremely strong and smart, yet graceful. And although evil you actually like vampires in a way because of the way they do business. This is how i perceive the BA (except the're not evil). 

Im sorry Real but the SW are more brutal and savage in the way they do things. The BA are IMO completely different, able to call upon great strength and fury yes, but never losing it completely at the expense of tactics.


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## deathwatch_v

Damn cote to quick for me


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## Baltar

I think that my wording was poor, as I didn't mean that they aren't animalistic - but I think people seem to see them as mindless, rabbid, creatures. When, actually, A thousand Sons may show them to be ignorant, but it also certainly shows them to be very cold and calculative. Less like an animal behaving purely on feral anger, and more like a hunter, driven by it.

The mindless barbarians (if people wanted to find them) are going to make themselves clear in a later book, I imagine - and then people would think more than twice about contesting that nothing is going to come close to the brutality of the world eaters.

EDIT: I'm not even going to bring up the BA's anymore, because I am confident that when they get their attention in the HH series everyone will drop the "Angry but not at the expense of tactice" balls.


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## Coder59

ckcrawford said:


> The World Eaters and Blood Angels, I would go by the description on the Word Eaters in battle of the Abyss. "Wrathful." I believe this word describes both of them the same now. Before the Blood Angels were cursed with Black Rage and the Thirst I would have described them as a more controlled anger and rage.


You are correct sir. Remember in 1k Sons Ahriman got the following impression of Sanguinius. 

"For all it's apparent softness there was a violent strength concealed within it. Like a riptide beneath a placid Seascape."
A Thousand Sons: Pg 310.

From the sounds of it the Black Rage and the Red Thirst were always inherent in the Blood Angels gene seed. Remember Sanguinius was one of the most mutated Primarchs, however it's likely that Sanguinus himself held the gene flaws in check somehow. Likewise it's mentioned in the Blood Angels books that sanguinius had a berzerk dark aspect to him. Now imagine how that would affect a fight against say Russ. He could wait him out then unleash some sort of berzerker rage at just the right moment.

As for the BA themselves I think they have a different mindset to the wolves. The Wolves see themselves as Warriors pure and simple nothing more. The Angels from what I've picked up on them during the Crusade era regard themselves as Killers. Not in the same executioner style as the World Eaters. But rather the Emperors Scalpel. They're shock troops but as it says in the BA Codex.

"Driven by fiery temperament, the Blood Angels swiftly earned a fearsome reputation as shock troops, which came to feed a rivalry between them and the World Eaters Legion. Yet, in truth, the Blood Angels were never as ferocious as the World Eaters, for the wise influence of Sanguinius tempered their bloodlust."
Blood Angels Codex: Pg 6.

The wolves weren't shock troops they were a cunning and well rounded army. Sure they like their up close and personal fights but as the old Space Wolves codex states. 

"The Space Wolves headstrong attitude tends to get them into battles, but once there, they fight with the cunning of the Wolf Pack rather than the frenzy of a rabid dog." 
Space Wolves Codex 3rd Edition PG:1


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

The Real Sanguinius said:


> I think that my wording was poor, as I didn't mean that they aren't animalistic - but I think people seem to see them as mindless, rabbid, creatures. When, actually, A thousand Sons may show them to be ignorant, but it also certainly shows them to be very cold and calculative. Less like an animal behaving purely on feral anger, and more like a hunter, driven by it.


In a sense I think you are right, and I dont think anyone was contesting that view.


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## gen.ahab

I cannot speek for the rest but I assure you that was not the view I have/had of them at any point. Savage..... Yes. Brutal..... Yes. Cunning..... Yes. Mindless brutes... No.


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## elkhantar

Meh... people are actually viewing savageness/feralness like an advantage? (and I'm shooting myself on the foot here, I voted Sanguinius and I play BA). Too many videogames, folks! 

Mindless rage/berserker fits are not good, ever (in real life). They do not give any extra strength or endurance for being "brutal"; just cloud your mind and judgement.

So what exactly is a "berserker rage" and what benefits does it provide? you ignore pain? you can temporarily perform greater efforts without regards to your integrity? You know, you can stay perfectly lucid in a fight/stressful situation under a surge of adrenalin and cortisol that keeps you going and do the same, but being actually able to think. It's an automatic process known as the “fight-or-flight” reaction, or the stress response.

Instincts, training, quick reflexes and body memory are good. High focus and enhanced strength/stamina from high levels of hormones in the body are good. Tantrums and fits of rage that cloud the mind aren't. I'm pretty sure the genetically enhanced body of the astartes is capable of the first without the second.

That said, we also are talking about a fictional world, where the rule of cool dictates what's true... and of course mouth-frothing berserkers that ignore all pain and become (even more) super strong are cool so you can perfectly disregard all I just said


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