# Lady of the lake questions



## Champion Alaric (Feb 17, 2011)

Got a good deal on some Bretonians so i bought em. 130 bucks for 5k points, why not. Got the old lady of the lake and would love to use her. I went thru alot of the old posts about brettonians and one thing I have definitely noticed is that NO ONe seems to use or like ye old lady. Her points cost alone of course is quite high and a deal breaker Im sure. So lets say the points are irrelevent. What other reasons would there be not to use her?

Since Im asking for whats wrong with her, on the flip side whats right for her? Here are some things I like:

1. The chalice. According to the FAQ it doesnt use power dice...so couldnt you use it to leach dispel dice from your opponent for nothing? I mean randomness aside you can pull off some spells that may make the opponent have to use them dice. Not to mention I saw no limit on how often in one turn u can use it...

2. Magic Resistance, not game changing but with her toad its like 4 extra dispel dice..

3. +2 for lore of life, again not game changing but a +6 to cast never hurts.

4. Attached grail knights, I would only rock 2 of em but its a nice bodyguard.

5. She knows all the spells from any lore. I like that one as I use Mannfred and love the options.

6. Auto Pray. Ward saves all around..inot huge but every lil bit helps...doesn't it?

So i guess you can see that I have a ton of reasons TO use her but only a couple not too...any help would be appreciated! :grin:


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## Deathypoo (Jun 27, 2011)

I've played against her a few times...

She's an extremely powerful/annoying character while she's alive, but the short story is that she dies so easily outside a knight unit, and inside a knight unit you're either still losing her in CC or you're wasting the knights.

I don't know if you can only give her 2 grail knights... but even if you could, you need more to benefit from "look out sir (mam)" and small missile immunity.


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## Lord Rahl (Mar 13, 2010)

She does not get LOS as she is a Monster Cav, so this means easy cannon sniping will kill her. Also she cant take magic items (not a major problem but some may see it as bad). Her points is way to high unless playing a 4k point or higher game.

With all that said i have used to to great effect and kept her hidden behind a tower so the enemy could not shoot her, she buffed my knights and made them near impossable to kill and in a second game my [email protected] were going toe-toe and killing hellpits with the lore of light buffs/debuffs.

Characters are really powerful if used properly and can be game changing, but dont expect your opponant to be happy with you if she is devastating.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Champion Alaric said:


> 1. The chalice. According to the FAQ it doesnt use power dice...so couldnt you use it to leach dispel dice from your opponent for nothing? I mean randomness aside you can pull off some spells that may make the opponent have to use them dice. Not to mention I saw no limit on how often in one turn u can use it...


The chalice is pretty good all in all. 



> 2. Magic Resistance, not game changing but with her toad its like 4 extra dispel dice..


Magic resistance doesn't work like that anymore, just a 2+ Ward Save against spells that don't matter heh



> 3. +2 for lore of life, again not game changing but a +6 to cast never hurts.


This is good, but then some of her power comes from being able to take any lore. 



> 4. Attached grail knights, I would only rock 2 of em but its a nice bodyguard.


Yeah she can never get a LoS so not worth buying her the grail guardians. 



> 5. She knows all the spells from any lore. I like that one as I use Mannfred and love the options.


No she doesn't, she's just a level 4 wizard.



> 6. Auto Pray. Ward saves all around..inot huge but every lil bit helps...doesn't it?


This is her best trait by far, giving you the chance to go first sometimes. But all that added together is just not worth the point ultimately. You just end up hiding her from Cannons or any combat unit which puts her our of position to use the chalice etc. Maybe if she was a Loremaster that would be good.


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## Champion Alaric (Feb 17, 2011)

Thanks all of you  that info was exactly what i was lookin for. I genuinely thought she was a loremaster tho. Ill check after work again but im sure Aramoro is right. Not getting all the lores kills her a bit for me. I also thought someone would say I would miss out on a Lord and his choices, so it's good to know lords aren't everything.
The one big thing tho is that i had NO idea she was a monstrrous cav. Veeery good to know. I guess one upside is that her command radius becomes 18"...but thats not a huge deal. I still have yet to use my Brets as i wanna get the 2 trebuchets painted before I use em. 

Thanks again, always get good advice when I ask for it..one day i may have some to give back


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Excellent price. Bretts are a better army than people think in 8th edition because of its special lance formation rules, access to life and beasts lore, and trebs. I think that the level 4 castor with the various common magic items is a better choice for the army, which is why the special character does not get played. 

The lance in combat and lance formation abilities specific to bretts allow them to have narrow ranks (3 models wide), models on flanks get to attack, and allows the damsel or prophetess to stay in the second rank (like the Slann in a lizardman army). These rules make brett cav units viable relative to other armies. 

Also, the treb is an excellent stone thrower. 

Finaly, I think that the blessing is under-rated for the army and there are a lot of magic items unqiue to this army that can make it surprisingly good. 

The characters are the strength of the army. The weakness of the army are the men-at-arms and bowmen (which are slightly over-priced relative to the new books for their characteristics), the T3 and reliance on lances (good on the charge, but a problem in extended combat with S3 and S4 knights against stubborn or steadfast troops) and the limited selections. As long as the blessing is up and holds, the ward save makes the knights generally just worth their points if arrayed in lance formations.


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## Deathypoo (Jun 27, 2011)

All this makes me wish one of my three armies could actually take cannons...


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

olderplayer said:


> Finaly, I think that the blessing is under-rated for the army and there are a lot of magic items unqiue to this army that can make it surprisingly good.


Brets have one ace in the hole really which is Heroic Killing Blow on your lord, that can turn games by itself, there's not much else to write home about in their magic items. 



olderplayer said:


> The characters are the strength of the army. The weakness of the army are the men-at-arms and bowmen (which are slightly over-priced relative to the new books for their characteristics), the T3 and reliance on lances (good on the charge, but a problem in extended combat with S3 and S4 knights against stubborn or steadfast troops) and the limited selections. As long as the blessing is up and holds, the ward save makes the knights generally just worth their points if arrayed in lance formations.


Men-at-arms are the backbone of any Bretonnian army, you need a nice chunky horde of them with Halberds to get anywhere really. If you opponent has taken any big units at all then you will not be able to tackle them with Knights as they simply don't have the hitting power to break anyone (outside of blind luck). Say you're fighting Empire Halberdiers, 12 of your finest knights with full command is 312 points, 50 Empire State Halberdiers will cost 270 with full command. They will beat the Knights every single time. Using Lance formation you get to charge in and have 10 out of 12 can strike, you'll get 7 Hits out of that, and hopefully 6 Kills, Horses should kill another 2. Halberdiers will strike back (well at the same time really), in horde they'll have 5 frontage against a Lance, striking 3 deep so 7/8 hits should turn into 5 wounds which after Armour and 6+ Ward saves kills a Knight. Now unless something catastrophic happens for the Empire they hold and the Brets need to either move out of Lance formation OR only have 6 guys attacking from now on in. Then you lose. Those are the killer problems with the Lance, it only works when you charge and only for the first round of combat. Don't get me started on what happens if your opponent has Flail Marauders. 

Bretonians can win, any army can win but you rely on your Men-At-Arms blocks to have some staying power. If you go for Knights alone you'll find yourself staring down the barrel of a couple of hordes desperately trying to Trebuchet or Dwellers them before they come and touch your knights in a bad way.


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## Lord Rahl (Mar 13, 2010)

Champion Alaric said:


> Not to mention I saw no limit on how often in one turn u can use it


Forgot to metion you can only use it ONCE in EACH bretonnian magic phase, its one of those RAI vs RAW arguments. Just thought i would clear it up before the bickering starts with your opponant.


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## olderplayer (Dec 11, 2009)

Aramoro said:


> Men-at-arms are the backbone of any Bretonnian army, you need a nice chunky horde of them with Halberds to get anywhere really. If you opponent has taken any big units at all then you will not be able to tackle them with Knights as they simply don't have the hitting power to break anyone (outside of blind luck). ....Bretonians can win, any army can win but you rely on your Men-At-Arms blocks to have some staying power. If you go for Knights alone you'll find yourself staring down the barrel of a couple of hordes desperately trying to Trebuchet or Dwellers them before they come and touch your knights in a bad way.


Good points. My point was that men-at-arms are just a bit expensive for what they do relative to some other armies. You really do need a large unit of men-at-arms to make this army viable. However, their low leadership, WS=2, and reliance on a unit of knights (not fleeing) within 6" nearby to get leadership is a serious problem with the knights having such greater movement.


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## Champion Alaric (Feb 17, 2011)

Lol thought this was done. Yay for more info! 

"Forgot to metion you can only use it ONCE in EACH bretonnian magic phase, its one of those RAI vs RAW arguments. Just thought i would clear it up before the bickering starts with your opponant."

Never saw that sentence. I checked on Aramoros (he was totally right, not surprised lol) and i will check this one out too. At least it doesn't use power dice still so thats good. 

"Good points. My point was that men-at-arms are just a bit expensive for what they do relative to some other armies. You really do need a large unit of men-at-arms to make this army viable. However, their low leadership, WS=2, and reliance on a unit of knights (not fleeing) within 6" nearby to get leadership is a serious problem with the knights having such greater movement." 

Again good point. So my noobness here has me ask this: What about a cheap ass hero with that Virtue that lets him join them lowly peasents on the ground. I wish i had my dex here so I could be more specific... But the gist is he gives his leadershi to them. Im not sayin hes wonderful but he could make leadership woes a lil easier..


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I use a Paladin with the Virtue of Empathy as my BSB to lead my Men at Arms blocks around. it's cheap and effective.


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## Lord Rahl (Mar 13, 2010)

Yes VoE is a great buy if you are going to run a peasant army otherwise just use a damsel or prophetess and give them crown of command for a stubborn ld roll of 7-8. 

I have added a pally to my [email protected] mounted on horse in the past, it was ok until he got pulverised in combat and the peasants ran, but worth a try if you think it will work.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

There is no compelling reason to put your pally in the unit with Men At Arms. if your opponent has little shooting just cruise up behind them.


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