# Chaos - do we like the new direction?



## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

So we all know about what happened to Daemons, a few of us raised eyebrows at the idea of Daemons being removed in Fantasy from their counterparts who they'd stood alongside for years. However the army is out, and it doesn't seem too bad.

But reading the new White Dwarf today, it would see the key thing for the Warriors now is a concentration on the warrior aspect of their culture. So hard hitting units which I like, and an odd but interesting change in the idea that items are no long restricted. So by an example in the mag a Khorne champion can have an axe of Khorne and a pendent of slaanesh. The reasoning is the new background suggests the northern tribes worship all four gods just as often as those who become dedicated champions of just the one. Also in the case of the battles, most armies would be in effect invading armies, where all four powers unite anyway.
Second the reasoning for the Trolls, Dragon Ogres and Giants being added to the list from the beasts book, is the fact these creatures should be in Troll Country and the mountains where the Warriors are, not in the forests with the beasts.


On a side note talking about Beasts they mention them briefly at the end of the army book design interview. Phil Kelly has indicated that they will have more sinister creatures, the kind feared by the Empire, shadows in the dark, things that live in the darkest parts of the forest, creatures down in the cellar etc. Now to me that sounds really interesting.

So what do others think?


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## Othiem (Apr 20, 2008)

I haven't had the opportunity to play against them yet, but from what I've read I think it's a good direction. They combine dwarven survivability with dark elf hard hitting, making for a somewhat unique army. Glad they kept the trolls and and giants, as a purely human chaos army just doesn't look quite the same. As for the items and god specificity, I can see where they're going. Having lost access to daemons and beasts, trying to enforce god specificity would seriously limit the variety of armies you could build. It's a shame, because an item like collar of khorn could be priced much lower in a all khorn army than in an all tzeentch army, however doing this would enforce pretty cookie cutter army lists. Not to mention we might just end up with an item list that has a collar of nurgle, collar of slaneesh, etc. And for those who want to use a monogod list, the book does a good job of allowing that.

The part I'm most happy about is after the extreme power leap of DoC and VC, this book seems much more inline with the HE book.

Interesting about the beastmen, I don't know what to take from that, as a fluffy bunny rabbit is sinister enough to run my empire off the table.


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## LVix (Oct 18, 2008)

I'm going to have a long wait for my BoC army now I can tell. (They are my second, must have choice currently.) 

I like the new direction for WoC myself and I do agree about the transfer of the monsters... despite the fact I'm loosing trolls for the BoC. Perhaps a little more restriction on the items... I'll have to see the book (As Druchii will buy it anyhow.  ) before I get to technical about the specifics of the rules.


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## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

I like the new chaos in general but the marks are bad like the 40k ones. MArk of khorne should be frenzy and +1 dispell dice at least for characters. the eye of the gods table is awesome, I love the idea of a warshrine


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## squeek (Jun 8, 2008)

I can see why they made the items unrestricted, but I still don't like it. I think from a fluff point of view the chumminess of all the Chaos gods in 40k and Fantasy is not where I would have liked it to go. I much prefered it when the Chaos gods hated each other and squabbled with their opposite number. It just seemed so much more in line with the fluff that has evolved over the years for the disparate nature of Chaos.

That said, anything that gets people in to Fantasy en masse has to be good, and with the number of WoC lists popping up and the amount of people buying the book locally it seems they are a success in that sense.

As for the Beasts remarks, I will have to wait and see of course, but it sounds like they might be heading more towards VC style lists with lots of scary things rampaging about. Though that is just my interpretation of the statement, no other basis


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## LVix (Oct 18, 2008)

squeek said:


> As for the Beasts remarks, I will have to wait and see of course, but it sounds like they might be heading more towards VC style lists with lots of scary things rampaging about. Though that is just my interpretation of the statement, no other basis


Scary things rampaging... ooh my favorite playstyle! :laugh:

Have to agree with not liking the sheer "we are all chaos... hug anyone?" sort of thing thats going on with the chaos gods. In fact the more I think about it... the more I pout and sulk for the old times of less hugs and more corruption. :crazy:


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## Drax (Sep 19, 2007)

the way i view the mixed mark/item thing is more like the way the ring gets passed about in LotR

basically you've got a bunch of constantly warring barbarians and a bunch of magic items - the gods will want the items to go to the champions they believe will do their will or that simply have the ability to take it from a weaker foe.

mix that with the idea that the gods are a pantheon to a society (in its loosest form) that is polytheistic and material in its outlook, and those that can obtain treasures blessed/granted by the gods, will, regardless of the items' dedication!

as for the book - i've not played it yet, but in theory i'm fairly happy.

extremely dissapointed in the Ogre Mutant rubbish though! i see them as sheer laziness!

quite like the MoS - the fact that they are immune to fear, terror, panic is good, but since they aren't immune to psych, i can still flee if i want (particularly with fast cav!)

i don't see the point in the warhound upgrades and i don't see the point in upgrading to lances on knights; basically i don't see the point on spending an extra 5 points per model on an already expensive unit just to get an extra +1 on the charge but lose +1 on defence and the ability to negate daemon and forest spirit saves


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## MaidenManiac (Oct 2, 2008)

Drax said:


> i don't see the point in the warhound upgrades and i don't see the point in upgrading to lances on knights; basically i don't see the point on spending an extra 5 points per model on an already expensive unit just to get an extra +1 on the charge but lose +1 on defence and the ability to negate daemon and forest spirit saves


There aint no point in uppgrading warhounds, thats pointsink if anything!
You only gain +1 s on the charge with lances, the handweapon and shield rule only applies to models on fot, not knights. That been said its still a waste to uppgrade the weapons...

To be fair, the WoC list allready lack long range shooting (no, Hillcannons arent playable, and yes its hillcannons) and flying units to take care of enemy warmachines, thereby sitting tactically duck in a way. Having lots of "certain mark forbidden items" also simply would flush the list down the drain.

Cant say i miss the old Daemonic Animosity parts. Most other equal rules have gone down the drain, hence that one should too and has so done. And yea i agree that the "everyone is fighting for a few items" idea is alot better then the "aha! I won a, ow fawk its a pendant of slaanesh, but i follow nurgle, aargh!" one that used to be :angry:
Magical items are just trinkets and to me it'd seem very likely that Nurgle will "bless" an item his follower just gained from a slaanesh champion so it would accept his followe as its user instead :taunt:


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> You only gain +1 s on the charge with lances, the handweapon and shield rule only applies to models on fot, not knights


Knights now come standard with Ensorcelled weapons that give a +1 strength.

Speaking as a brand new player to Fantasy and having never seen prior Chaos armybooks, I love the way this book allows you to build a list. I too have been fed up with the animosity crap for ages so it being removed from both game systems makes me happy. From what I can read in this book I can make extremely varied armies and heroes in such a way that I am almost assured to have a different host than my opponent.

Granted, the models are the main reason for me to pick up this army but the rest of it seems like icing on the cake to me. Already have a unit of 5 Knights on the go and once they are done I already have a Dragon mounted Lord planned. Oh the coolness!!!


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

I have read good things, and hopefully should be getting the book soon, I know allot of people have complained about being able to mix items, but allot don't seem to realize its YOUR choice, if you want a pure Khorne force including Magical items, then do it, do you really need a rulebook to spell it out for you


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Stella, you do recall the complaints and arguments regarding the same thing in the 40K chaos book do you not?


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## Othiem (Apr 20, 2008)

I suspect the big difference between the 40k chaos changes and the WFB chaos changes are that in 40k they went from an overpowered book, in WFB chaos is going from a book that's horribly old and out of date.


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## Cole Deschain (Jun 14, 2008)

You know how I justify my Tzeentch sorcerer lord toting a Nurglish Necrotic talisman?

He KILLED the guy who had it before, and kept it as a trophy.

I like the book- but that's because the locals are pretty good about not mixing Marks- while you might see a mixed Nurgle/Khorne force, you're incredibly unlikely to see, say, a Khorne/Slaanesh army.

Also, there's a very definite encouragement of keeping your cheap troops unMarked.

After all, Marauders really aren't WORTH marking most of the time.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

I have never really liked the chaos army anyway it was always overpowered and really boring to play (run elite warriors at enemy they either get shot to bits or kill all in their path) the only thing that really changed was the marks of different gods which at least tried to inject some sort of tactical play and limited some of the magic items and by taking that away it just becomes a fast non shooty dwarf army


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

The Wraithlord said:


> Stella, you do recall the complaints and arguments regarding the same thing in the 40K chaos book do you not?


I remember all the boneheadedness yes


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## Druchii in Space (Apr 7, 2008)

To be fair on that point Stella, Codex Space Marines was more of an issue for many folks due to the armies thet had just been made illegal at GW via a pen stroke more than anything to do with fluff or Daemons being removed. I'm not saying there weren't any folks shouting about the loss of Greater Daemons etc, but many more where angry as their *insert Traitor Legion apart from Black Legion here* just got done over. Not sure it was boneheadedness for them being upset that their £400 worth of models just got nerfed to oblivion for the time being, possibly for good though.

With this change in Warhammer its much more from a fluff perspective, and the fact in fantasy the combined Chaos army was always more common. I used to see Bloodletters and the like appearing in some 40K armies because of rules, or whatever. But here in Fantasy I've known a lot of people who took what they first saw in Realms of Chaos all those years ago and ran with it for ages. Happily and legally having Warriors, Beasts and Daemons all together on the battlefield. Heck I remember alot of shouting on older boards than Heresy about the horror and how dare they split Beasts of Chaos away from the main Chaos army back when that happened. So this isn't new for me either. 

Now my personal view on the combining situation is, I'm fine with it, in fact I agree with Cole here on the reasoning for heroes, and its how I'd play it. To be honest one of the most interesting things to come from the whole interview for me was the Beasts comment, and I'm eager to see where the go with the idea. 
However after saying all that if I'm honest when someone asks me 'do I prefer Chaos split or combined,' I'd say combined everytime. Just because for me there few sights better than a full 2000pt+ Chaos force marching at you with Mortals, Beasts and Daemons howling to the dark Gods unified as one, and sadly its now a sight we will rarely see in Warhammer.

Wouldn't stop me playing any of the three seperate armies if I ever choose to go that way at some point in the future though.


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