# Loken not going to have involvement in the Siege of Terra



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

So i always assumed Loken would have some involvement in the Siege of Terra, then he 'died' in Galaxy in Flames. Even then though with rumours abound that he had survived Istvaan, before eventually being confirmed, i once again was sure he would play a part in the Siege. Be it confronting Abbadon or more so, Aximand, or maybe turning off the shields to the _Vengeful Spirit_ like some people think. But upon reading the Grey Knights codex, it says that after Malcador presents his chosen loyalists before the Emperor he take them to Titan to start the Grey Knights. 

Soooo are they going to follow what Ward put in the codex. If so will Loken go to Titan and play no further part in the Heresy, not getting the closure some people are expecting of his story or will Loken break off from the others and take an active part.

Thoughts?


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Is it definite that Loken becomes a Grey Knight then? I haven't really read any of the recent HH stufff...(well I'm up to the one before Prospero burns lol). Either way, I think Loken will have some involvement; I think they put too much effort in to him to have him confirmed alive and then have him doing sweet FA.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

He'll definitely have a role in the seige. There's no point bringing him back if he doesn't.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well we've known for a long time that Malcador selected a group of astartes who would go on to found an organisation(confirmed as the Grey Knights) and now at the end of Flight of the Eisenstien and in the subsequent Garro audio books, we've seen that Garro has been sent to gather together a select group of astartes, ones who have shown exceptional loyalty and include astartes from the traitor legions(in fact only one so far(Rubio) is from a loyalist legion), which to me are clearly the same group Visions and the Grey Knights codex refer to.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> He'll definitely have a role in the seige. There's no point bringing him back if he doesn't.


And yet everything in the codex says otherwise.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> And yet everything in the codex says otherwise.


I haven't actually read the GK codex (damn loyalists) but does it say "The founders went to Titan and did absoulutely nothing else until the end of the Heresy." or does it say "and the founders went to Titan to train."? If it's the first than I'm wrong and I don't no why you asked the question. If it's the second then there's plenty of space for them to go, get trained and then come back for ass-kicking. After-all whats the training for if not to defeat Horus?


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

You would think though that if they were trained to fight Horus, they would have accompanied him when he travelled on to the Vengeful Spirit, and as far as I know only custodes did, maybe a few BA with Sangi as well.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

MEQinc said:


> I haven't actually read the GK codex (damn loyalists) but does it say "The founders went to Titan and did absoulutely nothing else until the end of the Heresy." or does it say "and the founders went to Titan to train."? If it's the first than I'm wrong and I don't no why you asked the question. If it's the second then there's plenty of space for them to go, get trained and then come back for ass-kicking. After-all whats the training for if not to defeat Horus?


The Codex says they went to Titan, then Titan was cast into the Warp (surrounded by the most protective wards possible) and when it reemerged after the Heresy so much time had passed as far as the inhabitants of Titan were concerned that the Grey Knights had been formed in their 1,000 strong entirety.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> The Codex says they went to Titan, then Titan was cast into the Warp (surrounded by the most protective wards possible) and when it reemerged after the Heresy so much time had passed as far as the inhabitants of Titan were concerned that the Grey Knights had been formed in their 1,000 strong entirety.


So... they cast themselves into the warp? Like, on purpose? And missed the Heresy? That's... wierd, and kinda dumb really. 

However, even still it's not out of the question that some members of the organization might've escaped/decided to leave and thus Loken could be out and about. This is pure speculation obviously but I personally just can't see a point in bringing a character back from the dead (a very evocative and poignant death at that) simply to make him a GK founder and seldom mentioned character.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

MEQinc said:


> So... they cast themselves into the warp? Like, on purpose? And missed the Heresy? That's... wierd, and kinda dumb really.
> 
> However, even still it's not out of the question that some members of the organization might've escaped/decided to leave and thus Loken could be out and about. This is pure speculation obviously but I personally just can't see a point in bringing a character back from the dead (a very evocative and poignant death at that) simply to make him a GK founder and seldom mentioned character.


Malcador cast them into the Warp as a last resort weapon, under the idea that the 8 would become 1,000 given the relative time differences between reality and the sea of souls- even now Titan doesn't rest entirely easily in this dimension.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

You say its a stupid decision, but at the time they were only 8, realistically they couldn't have made a huge difference to the outcome of the Heresy, yet they could make a huge difference after it was over. Also worth noting that whilst it was in the warp, it was still heavily protected against the denizens of the warp, if i'm right it was actually in a sort of limbo between reality and the warp.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

The way I took the audio drama's about Garro and his initial quest was it was for the future. Those were Malcador's exact words. I don't know how much he and the Emperor saw of the future but from what it looked like,barring their own deaths, they knew that the "it's just us vs the aliens" era was over. They needed......the Ghost Busters. At that point who you gonna call? Nobody. No Astartes were equipped to handle the Chaos threat. Only the Primarchs seemed to be successful against the greater daemons. Sending the original 8 to Terra would have been stupid if you think about it. Tactically speaking they were outnumbered and outgunned. The palace was under seige. Your going to employ your best weapon against chaos that's not even trained yet? 

If the 8 had deployed what would they have been? 8 more marines, some pyskers in them, against the forces of chaos. They wouldn't have been anything that special against the forces Horus had at that point which is what the GK's are supposed to be.The GK's are supposed to be a 911 option for the Imperium. To be honest the next step I've seen past them is usually exterminatus initiated. Loken and the others are no where near trained to stop the siege and the daemonic forces at bay. It was best to keep them training and wait till they were ready. The Emperor and Malcador planned for the worse and letting a weapon like that possibly be destroyed was to great a chance.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> So... they cast themselves into the warp? Like, on purpose? And missed the Heresy? That's... wierd, and kinda dumb really.


Pretty sure that was the plan from the start. The Emperor knew he would need a force strong enough to tackle Chaos after the outcome of his fight with Horus.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

+++Spoilers+++



I still think it's a cop out that Loken even survived, so much for pathos eh? And don't get me started on some the new Grey Knight fluff. 

But in regards to your original question, yes, Loken and the eight (if Loken in fact becomes a grey knight) will take no part (or very little) in the Seige of Terra, but will be building the Grey Knights. 

One does wonder then why they bothered to bring back the poster boy of the Heresy series if they can't use him. Perhaps he will in fact not become a Grey Knight and will take part in the siege somehow? Or is it enough for the fans that he survives (against all logic and good writing) and becomes a Grey Knight?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Remember, the Codices often share with us pseudo-history or mythologized history rather than pure facts. Codex: Gray Knights also shares yarns that aren't attributed to anyone and whose author or eyewitness couldn't easily be explained. Drago's deeds, anyone?

With that in mind, I could see a disparity wherein the future Grey Knights DO play a role in the Siege of Terra, Codex be damned.

Cheers,
P.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

It's hard to buy into that argument Phoebus because if we do, who is to say 100% of everything we read in the codex hasn't been made up over the years?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I didn't say it was 100% made up... just skewed. Personally, I think it's mostly obvious when the fluff is given from an objective, omniscient POV versus tales being recounted or filtered through ten millennia of bullshit, propaganda, and mythology.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

I didn't mean dumb from Malcador's pov but rather from the authors. Given that they had pretty free reign to create the story as they want I don't really see a reason to have so thoroughly limited the HH writers. 

And again, I agree with Rems. It seems wasteful to have undone Lokens fate (which I thought was very well done and really evoked the darkness of the time period) for litterally no purpose other than to make him survive. His death served a purpose, his life appears to not, if he doesn't take part in the Seige.

Maybe Phoebus is right. It really does seem like the GK codex has painted the HH authors into a pretty tight corner of late though.

EDIT: Fridge-logic quiestion: Where did they get the recruits from when they went into the warp?


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Good question. It's possible i suppose that they had a few thousand recruits ready to go into the warp with them (a few thousand as accounting for casualties in testing etc) but gathering up a few thousand teenage psykers on short notice seems somewhat difficult, especially given the nascent Imperium's attitude to psychics in general (eg Nikea edict and the whole Imperial Truth).


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

It's said in the codex that Malcador had already gathered recruits over time to Titan, both brand new aspirants and also some from the Legions that had remained loyal. The Grey Knights plan seems to have been in motion for a lot longer than we thought before.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

I have a hard time buying that garro his dirty dozen will become the GK, they are not psykers and although they seem to show some loyalty they still originate from traitor legion's, who is to say the offspring of their gene seed is as mind strong. 
Even more when they found Garro he did seem a little mental making it doubtfull if he has the mental stability required to be a GK, 
I agree with Meqinc that I do not think he is brough back from the dead to help start the GK , hell no he still has a duel ahead facing Kharn in front of the empirial palace


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

piemelke said:


> I have a hard time buying that garro his dirty dozen will become the GK, they are not psykers and although they seem to show some loyalty they still originate from traitor legion's, who is to say the offspring of their gene seed is as mind strong.
> Even more when they found Garro he did seem a little mental making it doubtfull if he has the mental stability required to be a GK,
> I agree with Meqinc that I do not think he is brough back from the dead to help start the GK , hell no he still has a duel ahead facing Kharn in front of the empirial palace


But that's the point.

They proved that their loyalty was to the Emperor of mankind alone, and not to their primarchs. While the vast majority of the Traitor Legions followed Horus and their own primarchs, for whatever reasons, Garro, Loken and the others turned against their own brothers, seeing them for what they were, and stayed true to the Imperium and the Emperor.

In simpler terms, they stood up against the crowd, their brothers and old friends to stand for what was right, when the easier path would have been to follow Horus and the traitor Primarchs.

I used to believe that Loken's GK was an after-thought of the writers, but after a previous discussion on here, I was convinced that he was a latent psyker. The evidence is there, hidden. It's his feelings of trepidation, premonitions and so on, that are always proven to be correct.

Loken was also the sole survivor of the Istvaan bombings, and Garro took a damaged ship through the warp when the chances of survival were next to nil. These are characters who faced the worst that Chaos could offer, refused to back down, and stood firm. Thats why they became the Grey Knights.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> It's said in the codex that Malcador had already gathered recruits over time to Titan, both brand new aspirants and also some from the Legions that had remained loyal. The Grey Knights plan seems to have been in motion for a lot longer than we thought before.


So presumably, if they'd already selected aspirants they'd also be training equiping and transforming these aspirants. Afterall if your going to go around collecting these individuals it doesn't make much sense to not start making them into GK right away. If that's the case, what exactly do they need Garro, Loken and the others for? Not for finding recruits (already taken care of), not for training (existing Space Marines can take care of that), not for their phykic powers (which, if existant are pretty minor). So, thoughts?

Also, if they already had aspirants and existing marines on Titan for several years (decades?) before sucking it into the warp, what exactly did that achieve. I mean, presumably Titan was missing for a decade or so (real-time) which is plenty of time to turn individuals into Space Marines, especially if the process had already been started. In other words, what did they need the time jump for?

To Machiavellismx; I believe piemelke point was that the gene-seed of these individuals was shown to be corruptable. There is little to no evidence suggesting that their gene-seed wouldn't be. They were exceptional individuals but I don't think anybody thinks thats gene-seed dependent. In other words, the individuals are useful but their genetic legacy, less so.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

The fact that the garro dozen did not follow their primach is not that exceptional, Istvan was full of marines would stand up to their brothers and primarch to defend the emperor, so they would all be excellent grey knights ? 
It just does not make any sense that they would become the first grey knights, their legacy cannot be trusted, they are NOT psykers, there is even a WE amongst them, maybe they would help preparing the defense of the palace given their insight knowledge of the traitor legions


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Machiavellismx said:


> Loken was also the sole survivor of the Istvaan bombings,.......


This is not settled. I still hold hope for the return of Tarvitz, Rylanor and Co.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

They stood up to their primarchs willing to sacrifice themselves to prove their loyalty to the Emperor. They faced down Chaos with no training or no-how relying on their wits,skill,and mental strength. You have to think of Alaric in Hammer of Daemons when you look at what Loken went through. Trapped on a dead world with plague bearers for years and no hope of resucue,reinforcement,resupply,or rest. What does he do?Because a feared nightmare to plaguebearers and continues to roll like a war machine without orders or direction. You tell me who the hell else you would get to form the Grey Knights. These men have exemplified going above and beyond the call of duty.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

once gain, Istvan was full of space marines that stood against their primarch and brothers, Loken was not special in that sense.
Indeed they faced horrors and showed exceptional bravoury and so on, they are space marines, that is what they do, that is was they were bread for.
The comparison with Alaric is completely out of proportion, Istvan did not turn into a full blown chaos planet the likes of which alaric visited in hamer of daemons.
There were just zombies on that planet and everything was blown to bits. For a space marine that is just another day at the office, and still Loken showed cracks in his mental shield, GK are supposed to NEVER ever do this.
It is not because one cannot think of a better candidate that Loken has to be the candidate, that is no proper reason. 
I still feel there are more rational arguments against Loken and the Garro dozen becoming the first GK.
It just seems like wishfull thinking, you would like him to become the first GK since GK are cool and Loken is cool so cool+cool=3*cool.
Loken will fight Kharn in front of the emperial palace back to back with sigismund, now how does that sound for wishfull thinking ?
And makes more sense.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

You can argue that Alaric is a shitty Grey Knight if you like. Maybe you don't like Hector Rex as a Malleus Inquisitor Lord. Let's get down to basics here. One they stayed loyal to the Emperor in the face of death. That makes them special? No. What does? They survived. I'm sure if more marines had made it off of Istavaan Malcador would have recruited some of them. Dead men can't become warriors. There aren't any messiah type marines (except for the Sanguinor) that just manifest out of anywhere. You take what you can get and temper it into the weapon you need.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

I think I agree with _piemelke_ to be honest. They were not the only men on Istvaan to stand up for was right. Then again, if they were the only ones to survive it would seem more feasible. I think I would rather have Loken at the siege of Terra than have him as a Grey Knight. 

I don't see how some people think it was Loken who lowered the _Vengeful Spirits_ shields. I think it was simply Horus wanting to face the master of mankind in a dual, proving his superiority and taking his rightful place. Then again, I like to think it was Aximand (haven't read books in ages, think that is his name...one of the mournival who seems to reluctantly follow Abbadon) who let the shields down, in an attempt to redeem himself for choosing the wrong path to follow.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

piemelke said:


> once gain, Istvan was full of space marines that stood against their primarch and brothers, Loken was not special in that sense.
> Indeed they faced horrors and showed exceptional bravoury and so on, they are space marines, that is what they do, that is was they were bread for.
> The comparison with Alaric is completely out of proportion, Istvan did not turn into a full blown chaos planet the likes of which alaric visited in hamer of daemons.
> There were just zombies on that planet and everything was blown to bits. For a space marine that is just another day at the office, and still Loken showed cracks in his mental shield, GK are supposed to NEVER ever do this.
> ...


Wha wha?... Just zombies? Loken was left alone on Istvaan III for 4+ Years! On a planet full of Plaguebearers, ( http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Plaguebearer#.To6-OrKmzSo) not zombies. Daemons yo! That was after he dug him self out from under a building that got kicked on him by a Titan.... after he was severally injured. Istvaan III was a Daemon world, not just blown to bits. So what, Every day , for 4+ years, he fights a city full of DAEMONS. With no aid... and he deserves no more then any other Astartes? How many Daemons dose he have under his belt by the time Garro finds him? Thousands?


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> Wha wha?... Just zombies? Loken was left alone on Istvaan III for 4+ Years! On a planet full of Plaguebearers, ( http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Plaguebearer#.To6-OrKmzSo) not zombies. Daemons yo! That was after he dug him self out from under a building that got kicked on him by a Titan.... after he was severally injured. Istvaan III was a Daemon world, not just blown to bits. So what, Every day , for 4+ years, he fights a city full of DAEMONS. With no aid... and he deserves no more then any other Astartes? How many Daemons dose he have under his belt by the time Garro finds him? Thousands?


Wha wha? When was Loken on Istvaan III for 4+ years? And when was Istvaan III filled with daemons? :S


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

I understand it was not really a picknick for Loken, but I am very much under the impression it does not even become near to being as bad as Drakasi was for Alaric.
Loken was a SM, not just a strong human.

GK are a next level of SM, in the Killing ground the GK mentioned that if Ventris (a UM captain) would have beaten him in hand to hand combat he would be considered a traitor (Loken was not at that level). 
A GK is far more than a good SM as Loken was. Taking what has survived Istvan is just not enough, it requires more. That would mean all marines who were lucky enough to have survived it (the proper armour, stuck under ruble...) could have been GK, that would be bollocks. 


Loken has to find closure with the betrayal of his legion on Terra, look his former brothers in the eyes and face them as a true and pure Luna Wolve, honouring the Horus he has known before his fall. He deserves this, don't try to make him something he is not, a next level space marine with psyker powers starting a chapter of demon slayers.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

You think the guys in Tier one units like Delta Force or SEAL Team 6 are that way in their conventional army units. Most guys who volunteer for Delta are from the Rangers or Special Forces. Even at these levels they still aren't on the skill level that a guy on Delta would be at. It's even worse in the Navy. The guys who volunteer for SEAL training are just regular sailors who most likely don't even use guns that often. After they get through that they go to the Teams and then get selected to go to ST6. My point here is that your looking for some Chuck Norris retard that showing like Neo from the Matrix like abilities. Who exactly are you looking for in the Pre-heresy that would be at that level? 

Besides the Librarians who has awesome pyschic potential? No Mephistons here. You guys are setting this high bar that's ridiculous. If Malcador had gone by your measure he would have recruited like 2 guys in 4 thousand years. In special operations which is what the Knights are you want someone who's self-motivated, a self-starter, and will carry on and complete the mission in the absence of guidance or orders. These men displayed all of those characteristics in extreme circumstane. Most humans would have died. Take what happened. He was sent to die by his father and then watched one of his brothers kill the other. Then they dropped a building on him. He crawls out mentall damaged ( a blood building fell on him mind you) and the trauma of his gene fathers betrayal. What does he do in his fractured mental state? Becomes a monster that is dedicated to eradicating the enemies of the emperor. You may not be impressed by this but to me I'd want a man with that kind of unflinching loyalty on my team any day. His mind wasn't completely gone as Malcador could see he could be brought back.


I don't know why you guys don't like these men as the founders of the GK's. To be honest the point I was making with the military Tier 1 units was they take these intelligent,capable,motivated, and loyal men and THEN train them to move and operate at their level. You don't show up knowing how to work and move like they do, they teach you once they assess you have the capability. That's all Malcador did in my mind.He found men that would be able to fit the mold with enough training and resources. Obviously he was successful and your all wrong. The GK's today are literally one of if not the most badass force against Chaos the Imperium has. That's because of guys like Garro and Loken.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

SEAL Team 6, Delta Force etc are like Space Marines, where as Grey Knights are like the SAS.

:wink:

On the point however I can't see them moving Garro and Loken etc along to Titan when the Heresy is still happening, maybe afterwards but I'm guessing they'll end up fighting in defence of the Palace.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

First off you're arguing something like " I think Manchester United is better than Real Madrid." They are ALL tier one units and do the same damn missions. I don't give a rat's ass who's better. I was making a point. For the Americans they are like the Grey Knights. If I wanted to use a british example I would have brought up the SAS. French GIGN, German GSG9, and so forth. The SAS could have easily hav gone on the mission to kill Bin Laden. However it was an American op so the used Americans. They all do the same thing literally and I'm not going to debate this since it's stupid. They all work together and do the same training and missions. 

Getting back to the Knights what the hell would 2 more marines have done in the defence of the palace? Really, someone explain to me why Malcador would go through all this trouble to get these guys together to literally tell them," Now you stand on this part of the wall and you here and we are set." That's the dumbest thing on the planet.In this regard I'll say that they wouldn't have made one damn difference. In actuality Abbaddon would have finished Loken off and Mortarion Garro. They aren't trained to handle anything more than xenos and traitors. Showing up to that battle if they had survived it would have put the training and formation of the GK's back considerably and if they died, now you have to replace men you spent considerably resources obtaining. Doesn't make one bit of damn sense.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

lol I was deliberating trying to infer that the SAS are a tier above American forces 

Anyway those men could make a massive difference, they could defend a vital place within the palace, like the dungeon while the Emperor is off getting beat up, there's many things they could be doing.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I'm not saying they couldn't but they weren't so special at that point that another captain couldn't do the same. It was smarter to let them train and grow the GK's for the future instead of possibly being decapitated by Kharn or Lucius. I know people like these guys and want them around for the big battle but in truth they were far to important to the future to be risked in the siege. 

Also as far as who's better my friend it goes to the individual. To generalize a group as being surperior allows guys who aren't as good as others to feel surperior. Take MMA fighters for example. They operate as part of a team or gym. However not everyone in the gym no how good can beat everyone from somewhere else just because one guy is dominating. In truth, if you look at PMC corporations that hire these guys all that determines the guys value is the level he was at tier 1 or 2. The actually unit doesn't really matter.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Ultra111 said:


> Wha wha? When was Loken on Istvaan III for 4+ years? And when was Istvaan III filled with daemons? :S


Well when i say 4+, i really mean like 6 ish. Could be 6+...



piemelke said:


> I understand it was not really a picknick for Loken, but I am very much under the impression it does not even become near to being as bad as Drakasi was for Alaric.
> Loken was a SM, not just a strong human.


Have you heard Legion of one? Your impression is way off.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> To be honest the point I was making with the military Tier 1 units was they take these intelligent,capable,motivated, and loyal men and THEN train them to move and operate at their level.





Deadeye776 said:


> It was smarter to let them train and grow the GK's for the future instead of possibly being decapitated by Kharn or Lucius.


Do you see the conflict in these statements? 

How are Garro and Loken going to train recruits to a higher level when they themselves are not on that level. Of course when recruiting individuals into an existing group you are going to look for talent and then mold it to fit your form, you can't do that when establish a *brand new *group with a *brand new* purpose. Garro and Loken are not on the level of GK. If they are the founders than who is going to train them to reach that level?


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

MEQinc said:


> Garro and Loken are not on the level of GK. If they are the founders than who is going to train them to reach that level?


Logically, either a Primarch or the Big E directly.


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## Ultra111 (Jul 9, 2009)

Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> Well when i say 4+, i really mean like 6 ish. Could be 6+...
> 
> 
> 
> Have you heard Legion of one? Your impression is way off.


Hang on, one of us is getting very confused...You said _Loken_ was on Istvaan III by himself for 4+ years...and was surrounded by daemons? When was this stated? When was it said everyone else on Istvaan died, and when was it said that the daemon infested the world? Are you sure you don't mean Alaric the Grey Knight?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Garro: Legion of One? One of the audio dramas at least.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

I heard garro legion of one and read hammer of daemons, Istvan was in my opinion a kindergarten compared to drakasi (which was in the eye), garro and his friends could walk around for quite a while before finding a band of humans (who turned out to be nurgle fans but not really powerfull).
Darn Drakasi was at a totally different level.
To be honest I do not think it is the main topic here. Drakasi was a lot and a lot worse compared to istvan, is was a full blown khorn worshipping slaughter house.

Regarding the GK, they are on a different level, it is not required that they have been drafted from standard legions.
Someone else mentioned it very nice, they are astartes 2.0.
Not just a very trained version of astandard SM, that would implicitly mean the training was lacking in the sense that according to you, given the proper training the standard SM could evolve into GK.
Hell, they were trained by primarchs how bad can you make it. 
If a SM has the potential to be GK and not even their primarch could not get this out of them who could. 
And even if this were to be true why not train all sm as GK, they are according to various sources a level above standard SM.
The question why would malcador fetch him just to fight at terra, that is a valid discussion argument, and to that I have no real answer but it is not that them becoming GK being the only answer you can think of it is necessarily true.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Svartmetall said:


> Logically, either a Primarch or the Big E directly.


Aside from the fact that all of those individuals were immensly busy during this time period, all marines were trained by their Primarchs. Perhaps not directly but by the finest students of their Primarchs teachings. The fact is that Primarchs are inherently better than GK (as in no GK ever could reach primarch levels) and GK are inherently better than Marines. One cannot simply elevate a Marine to a GK through training.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

piemelke said:


> I heard garro legion of one and read hammer of daemons, Istvan was in my opinion a kindergarten compared to drakasi (which was in the eye), garro and his friends could walk around for quite a while before finding a band of humans (who turned out to be nurgle fans but not really powerfull).
> Darn Drakasi was at a totally different level.
> To be honest I do not think it is the main topic here. Drakasi was a lot and a lot worse compared to istvan, is was a full blown khorn worshipping slaughter house.


The view we get of Istvaan is the last day of a 6 year ish stint. I will agree that the place was not overrun with daemons at this point. But i think that this might be because Loken has been the lawnmower trimming the daemons [email protected]$$ back. What was the place like on his first day on the job? How long did this Darn Drakasi spend on his hell? How many daemons did he kill? Did he hunt them or just survive? The deamons on Istvaan had fear of Loken.  Lets say Loken killed 20 a day for 6 years, that's over 43k!! he killed Way more then 20 on his last day, when they were "thin"...



piemelke said:


> The question why would malcador fetch him just to fight at terra, that is a valid discussion argument, and to that I have no real answer but it is not that them becoming GK being the only answer you can think of it is necessarily true.


It is not the only answer but it is the one answer we know will happen. We know from the Grey Knight Codex Malcador was tasked to find a special group of Astartes who found the Grey Knights. We know also from the Collected Visions that these Astates have suppressed talents. We know from the new HH novels that Malcador sent Garro to round up a group of Astates. You can say well maybe Malcador had many groups. This to me seems weak. We don't fully understand how it all comes together yet but the writing is on the wall. To think that the Group in front of the Emperor is some other Group of Loyal Astates, from Traitor Legions, that we have not been shown. While the one we know about go on to do something less imprtant is not likely. All the effort in writing the books and the Timing of the release of the GK Codex, that just so happens to have information regarding the end of the heresy, tells me it all related. I don't think we need to wait untill it is in print to see what is going to happen. 

The same thing was said about the Fate of Loken. I tried to tell people that he would live and that there was evidence of it in the books but people would just do the same thing as here. Give any other possible answer and say we don't know.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

Well I assume we will see how events proceed, I still feel it would be rather mat wardish to let the bobby ewing of warhammer start the GK


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Alright this is turning into a moronic conversation. Let's start with the facts. Malcador assembles 8 astartes to go to titan where there are already recruits to formulate a unit that can specialize in warp threats. They get sent into the warp in warp time for a couple of centuries.......I think they said they were in their for close to a thousand years or so. I don't understand if you leave 8 astartes for centuries to train to fight an enemy. Garro has faced Chaos. Loken has faced Chaos. Now combine that with probably all the information the Emperor and Malcador had kept secret about the warp and the actual chaos gods and you have time, opportunity,resources,and men capable of anything. You give normal humans centuries to train to fight Chaos and I swear they'd be a legit fighting force. You give bloody Astartes CENTURIES TO TRAIN FOR CHAOS AND YOU GET THE FUCKING GREY KNIGHTS. I know Garro and Loken problem are more like the everyman astartes instead of rockstars.

I don't get how many daemons Garro has to take out for him to be a good choice for the GK. Who in that time period has taken on Chaos more than Nathaniel Garro and Loken? All bullshit aside, really? Your looking to start a force that combats chaos and your not going to get the two guys who have literally taken on chaos in different forms?This conversation is again moronic. However you may feel about Loken and Garviel not being suited in being cofounders of the you can't argue with success:

The first war for Armageddon
Thule Decimation of 728.M403. 
Purged the Traitor Chapter Relictors and destroyed their Chapter Fortress. 
Prevented the invasion of Godjera. 
The Purging of Jollana 
Fall of the devoted Inquisitor Gholic Ren-Sar Valinov. 
The Daemon Prince Ghargatuloth - The Prince of a Thousand Faces, leads an incursion on Khorion IX and again, one-thousand years later within the Trail of Saint Evisser.
The Luxor Rebellion crushed


The success of the Grey Knights can't be denied. Though these men who started it may not have been on the level of what you thought they should be you can't deny that they have accomplished the mission they set out to do.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

It doesn't say who the 8 were, by name. They were recruited for their indominatable willpower and loyalty to the Emperor. They were, however, regular space marines, as all grey knights are. And, it doesn't say that all 8 were still on Titan when it was sent to the "tides of the Warp" to weather out the final battle of the HH. There are plenty of ways that Loken could still be in the seige. Plus, when Malcador brings the 8 to Terra for the Emperor's inspection, the seige had already begun. So, technically, they all take part in the action. At least, they fight through to the palace to the Emperor.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

It pretty much goes without saying that the eight were left on Titan, it says Malcador takes them there, then it says Malcador leaves and casts Titan into its limbo state. Pretty sure it would mention if he took some of his super 8 with him. Plus what would be the point in gathering the eight only to no utilise them all.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> It pretty much goes without saying that the eight were left on Titan, it says Malcador takes them there, then it says Malcador leaves and casts Titan into its limbo state. Pretty sure it would mention if he took some of his super 8 with him. Plus what would be the point in gathering the eight only to no utilise them all.


/agree 100%. It did not have to be that way. There was nothing stopping the creators/ writers from giving the 8 time to help in the final part of the siege. For what ever reason they had other fish to fry. Unless Titan has its own webway portal, the 8 were there until it came out of the warp.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> Alright this is turning into a moronic conversation. Let's start with the facts. Malcador assembles 8 astartes to go to titan where there are already recruits to formulate a unit that can specialize in warp threats. They get sent into the warp in warp time for a couple of centuries.......I think they said they were in their for close to a thousand years or so. I don't understand if you leave 8 astartes for centuries to train to fight an enemy. Garro has faced Chaos. Loken has faced Chaos.


These are facts certainly, however none of them point directly to Garro and Loken being the founders of the GK. There is still plenty of room for them to have a role in the Siege.



> Now combine that with probably all the information the Emperor and Malcador had kept secret about the warp and the actual chaos gods and you have time, opportunity,resources,and men capable of anything.


And now you leave the realm of facts to support your claim. With both Malcador and the Emperor not on Titan during the training and both being increadibly busy in the time leading up to it, I find it difficult to beleive they could transfer all of their knowledge in such a limited time.



> You give normal humans centuries to train to fight Chaos and I swear they'd be a legit fighting force. You give bloody Astartes CENTURIES TO TRAIN FOR CHAOS AND YOU GET THE FUCKING GREY KNIGHTS.


This isn't true. Training does not automatically improve a fighting force, this only happens if they are trained by individuals with greater knowledge and skill then themselves. Centuries of training is just as likely to leave a force balking at its first fire-fight as it is deamon-killing, it depends on the training. Obviously the GK were well trained. My question is simply, who trained them? Garro and Loken had extremely limited knowledge of Chaos, as did most people at the time. They do not display the special talents that the GK of 40k do. They are badass, but who amongst the cast of HH astartes isn't? Badassery alone does not qualify one for the GK.



> I don't get how many daemons Garro has to take out for him to be a good choice for the GK. Who in that time period has taken on Chaos more than Nathaniel Garro and Loken? All bullshit aside, really?


Bullshit? Hardly. GK are not solely defined by their daemon-fighting. They are superior to regular marines, they are all psykers. These are things that define a GK, these are things that Garro and Loken are not, these are things that cannot simply be learned. 



> However you may feel about Loken and Garviel not being suited in being cofounders of the you can't argue with success:
> 
> The success of the Grey Knights can't be denied. Though these men who started it may not have been on the level of what you thought they should be you can't deny that they have accomplished the mission they set out to do.


No one is trying to deny the success of the Grey Knights. No one is denying that they accomplished their mission. However, there is zero logic in saying that because the GK kick ass they must have been founded by Loken and Garro.


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## Kickback (May 9, 2008)

Seems I have some catching up to do, last I recall Garro et al were the inquisition, but I'll read on see whats what.

Reason Im posting almost nothing of value to the topic at hand, I'd just like to say how much more powerful The Sigilite is compared to what I thought.
He sent an entire satelite into the Warp?
That is an impressive display of power, from a 'mere' human no less, I hope he gets to do a bit of ass kicking in some of the books.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Okay training is the only way to improve a fighting force. It is obvious if you've read the fluff that Titan was already set up to recieve the original 8 upon their arrival there.So yeah, the Emperor and Malacador would have had time to transfer everything they wanted there. Once the Emperor was aware of exactly what had happened to Horus and who was backing him they started planning to deal with this new threat. AOD says that it's 10 YEARS before Horus get's there. So yeah, I think that that's enough time to set Titan up for them. Once again, your asking who trained these guys.Garro has faced a Chaos threat and so has Loken. Maybe not as massive as GK's today but they have an idea.

The Emperor and Malcador obviously know more on the subject and provided them with instruction on what they knew of the warp and the nature of it's creatures.Ask anyone who's been in the military. I was in the Army for 8 years. You start off with classroom instruction when learining a special skill set and then move to feild work. If you think I'm bullshitting you ask around. These guys had the best the Imperium could give them as far as equipment and time. They had men who have faced threats from these creatures. Ovcourse you know the real test for any unit is real world operations.However even the American Delta Force started off with no one really knowing anything about terrorists. They recieved instruction from the Brits and they had combat veterans from previous wars (like Loken and Garro) to give an idea of what they are facing. This in my opnion is the most important mission these two could do.If not for the GK's many campaigns would have gone south.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

jaysen said:


> There are plenty of ways that Loken could still be in the seige. Plus, when Malcador brings the 8 to Terra for the Emperor's inspection, the seige had already begun. So, technically, they all take part in the action. At least, they fight through to the palace to the Emperor.


When Loken Joins the Mournival, he has a vision of his near deaths. One is when he is left alone on Istvaan. The other is a last stand with the Emperor. Since Loken dose not do anything other then kill Daemons, until he is picked up by Garro, it must be on Terra when this happens. I don't think he will be there at the last or go to the Vengeful Spirit but he must play a important part. My guess is he will confront Lil Horus and kill him.


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## shadowhawk2008 (Apr 15, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> I didn't mean dumb from Malcador's pov but rather from the authors. Given that they had pretty free reign to create the story as they want I don't really see a reason to have so thoroughly limited the HH writers.
> 
> And again, I agree with Rems. It seems wasteful to have undone Lokens fate (which I thought was very well done and really evoked the darkness of the time period) for litterally no purpose other than to make him survive. His death served a purpose, his life appears to not, if he doesn't take part in the Seige.
> 
> ...


Loken's fate was undone in as much as the readers believe it was. Dan Abnett always maintained that Loken was going to make a comeback. I talked to Jim Swallow at GD and this is what he said. Dan never had any plans for Loken doing. Loken was _his_ character.

The GK Codex takes extremely too many liberties with what can be considered good lore.



Rems said:


> Good question. It's possible i suppose that they had a few thousand recruits ready to go into the warp with them (a few thousand as accounting for casualties in testing etc) but gathering up a few thousand teenage psykers on short notice seems somewhat difficult, especially given the nascent Imperium's attitude to psychics in general (eg Nikea edict and the whole Imperial Truth).


The Emperor and the Sigillite of Terra can do whatever the hell they want. They are the absolute authority in the entire Imperium.



piemelke said:


> I have a hard time buying that garro his dirty dozen will become the GK, they are not psykers and although they seem to show some loyalty they still originate from traitor legion's, who is to say the offspring of their gene seed is as mind strong.
> Even more when they found Garro he did seem a little mental making it doubtfull if he has the mental stability required to be a GK,
> I agree with Meqinc that I do not think he is brough back from the dead to help start the GK , hell no he still has a duel ahead facing Kharn in front of the empirial palace


You mean Loken here, not Garro. Also, just because Loken went crazy does not mean he is unsuitable. Alaric survived and continues as a Grey Knight after all.

Also, Loken's worth would be that he actually _overcame_ his insanity.

As for these guys becoming the first 8 of the Grey Knights, Jim Swallow has been cautioning readers not to take the words literally and choose the obvious route of what is going to happen. I mean, nothing is preventing you from doing exactly that, but do consider other possibilities.

There is are at least three more audio dramas coming out within the next year or two, dealing with Garro looking for a traitor in the Imperial Palace, the first meeting between Varren and Garro, as well as one centered on Loken.



piemelke said:


> The fact that the garro dozen did not follow their primach is not that exceptional, Istvan was full of marines would stand up to their brothers and primarch to defend the emperor, so they would all be excellent grey knights ?
> It just does not make any sense that they would become the first grey knights, their legacy cannot be trusted, they are NOT psykers, there is even a WE amongst them, maybe they would help preparing the defense of the palace given their insight knowledge of the traitor legions


Their legacy is whatever they make of it. Even Ardaric Vaanes' gene-seed was recovered intact by the Raven Guard. Gene-seed stores memories, that is pretty clear if you read the Salamander novels and concerning the Blood Angels and their Primarch.

Just because they are not psykers and because they hail from traitor legions does not mean they do not have the potential to become Grey Knights. But from everything the writers are saying, it doesn't look like that will be the exact fate of the Garro band.



Lord Lorne Walkier said:


> This is not settled. I still hold hope for the return of Tarvitz, Rylanor and Co.


Amen.



Deadeye776 said:


> Alright this is turning into a moronic conversation. Let's start with the facts. Malcador assembles 8 astartes to go to titan where there are already recruits to formulate a unit that can specialize in warp threats. They get sent into the warp in warp time for a couple of centuries.......I think they said they were in their for close to a thousand years or so. I don't understand if you leave 8 astartes for centuries to train to fight an enemy. Garro has faced Chaos. Loken has faced Chaos. Now combine that with probably all the information the Emperor and Malcador had kept secret about the warp and the actual chaos gods and you have time, opportunity,resources,and men capable of anything. You give normal humans centuries to train to fight Chaos and I swear they'd be a legit fighting force. You give bloody Astartes CENTURIES TO TRAIN FOR CHAOS AND YOU GET THE FUCKING GREY KNIGHTS. I know Garro and Loken problem are more like the everyman astartes instead of rockstars.
> 
> I don't get how many daemons Garro has to take out for him to be a good choice for the GK. Who in that time period has taken on Chaos more than Nathaniel Garro and Loken? All bullshit aside, really? Your looking to start a force that combats chaos and your not going to get the two guys who have literally taken on chaos in different forms?This conversation is again moronic. However you may feel about Loken and Garviel not being suited in being cofounders of the you can't argue with success:
> 
> ...


You do realize how much Valinov duped the Ordo Malleus right? And he was a Malleus to start with. Same for Ghargatuloth.



jaysen said:


> It doesn't say who the 8 were, by name. They were recruited for their indominatable willpower and loyalty to the Emperor. They were, however, regular space marines, as all grey knights are. And, it doesn't say that all 8 were still on Titan when it was sent to the "tides of the Warp" to weather out the final battle of the HH. There are plenty of ways that Loken could still be in the seige. Plus, when Malcador brings the 8 to Terra for the Emperor's inspection, the seige had already begun. So, technically, they all take part in the action. At least, they fight through to the palace to the Emperor.


Grey Knights are hardly regular Space Marines. They are all psykers first and foremost. Even among regular Space Marines, psykers are a rarity.


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

shadowhawk2008 said:


> There is are at least three more audio dramas coming out within the next year or two, dealing with Garro looking for a traitor in the Imperial Palace, the first meeting between Varren and Garro, as well as one centered on Loken.


Oh Really? You do seem to have a bit of a inside scoop from time to time. Can you expand on this at all? How did you learn this? Who will be the writers? 

I have thought for a while that Varran was with Tarvitz on Istvaan III at the end. I had thought when we heard his story it would reveal the condition of the other loyalists. I know that not all the WE were on Istvaan but i got the feeling from Legion of One that he was a bit too familiar with the area. Either way i can't wait for more from this group.


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## shadowhawk2008 (Apr 15, 2011)

I know because I talked to Christian Dunn and Jim Swallow at Games Day UK 

Most of what I found out is here over at the Bolthole, or on my blog.

Bit of recap though.

The Garro/Cerberus arc is now out of the planning stage. 

John French (_The Last Remembrancer_ from _Age of Darkness_) will be writing the Cerberus audio-drama. This will be a smaller length than the current ones.

The Garro/Varren audio drama will be a double-disc set.

One of the next Garro audio-drama is called _Sword of Truth_ according to Jim.


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## rjpstoked (Feb 27, 2013)

Deadeye776 said:


> First off you're arguing something like " I think Manchester United is better than Real Madrid." They are ALL tier one units and do the same damn missions. I don't give a rat's ass who's better. I was making a point. For the Americans they are like the Grey Knights. If I wanted to use a british example I would have brought up the SAS. French GIGN, German GSG9, and so forth. The SAS could have easily hav gone on the mission to kill Bin Laden. However it was an American op so the used Americans. They all do the same thing literally and I'm not going to debate this since it's stupid. They all work together and do the same training and missions.
> 
> Getting back to the Knights what the hell would 2 more marines have done in the defence of the palace? Really, someone explain to me why Malcador would go through all this trouble to get these guys together to literally tell them," Now you stand on this part of the wall and you here and we are set." That's the dumbest thing on the planet.In this regard I'll say that they wouldn't have made one damn difference. In actuality Abbaddon would have finished Loken off and Mortarion Garro. They aren't trained to handle anything more than xenos and traitors. Showing up to that battle if they had survived it would have put the training and formation of the GK's back considerably and if they died, now you have to replace men you spent considerably resources obtaining. Doesn't make one bit of damn sense.


 Deadeye has close exposure to the workings of special units and I would concur with the way he is going with his thought. Example: Special forces selection and assessment is a washing ground school looking for potential candidates for SF training. SF need a filter to help their pass fail rates of 18 series training. I went to the 3rd class of SFAS as an e-4 (corporal equivalent, but I was a specialist) Upon arrival I was surrounded by warrior gods with ranger, sniper, and sapper tabs, combat patches, jumpmasters, and everything else I could only think of. Me, I was a scout (mechanized at the time)returning from Germany and I can tell you I would have bet my life, if anyone was going to be dropped, it was going to be me. End story, 18% was selected, and I was one of them. Any space marine could have been a possible candidate, to include untested trainees, unlikely tainted anti heroes, or like Loken, hardened warriors with proven loyalties. Psyche powers, like many talents, can remain latent till there is an attempt to use or an incident were it manifests itself. It is likely that those picked for GK duty will be an eclectic group.


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

id just like to use this thread to clarify somethings about the grey knights, just tell me if they are true or not.
Only a few of the 8 seem to be psychic, i think therefore they would be more akin to honorary members which due to their extensive combat abilities (All having a high rank and/or prodigious abilities) and their faith aswell as experience (they more than others have witnessed the warp, their legions fell to chaos, they rejected their primarchs and stayed true to the Emperor while their legions, brothers and primarch betrayed him) would be tasked with training the actual Grey knights.
Secondly, They dont have the Emperors gene seed, reinforcing point number 1.
Also, since little horus is still alive, i assume loken still has a role.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed, as you say, the original eight will already be different from the Grey Knights we know, as they don't have the Emperors gene seed, they haven't been recruited as the Knights now are, nor have they received the same extensive indoctrination and training, though that could be rectified. Another exception could quite easily be that they aren't all psykers. I'm counting on it in fact. 

As for Aximand. He and Lokens potential showdown could quite easily occur in one of the many, many novels left in the series.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Yes, the proto-GK were quite different from current GK. 

Even if the original 8 were all psykers/latent psykers, none of them would have "the Emperor's gift" (GK geneseed). 

It's probably safe to assume that only 2nd generation GK and onward had the Emperor's geneseed


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## theurge33 (Apr 4, 2012)

Pg. 359 of Collected Visions states that RIGHT BEFORE Malcador goes to take the Emporer's seat on the golden throne, he presents the Emporer with the 12 individuals, 4 humans, 8 space marines. I would assume our boys Loken, Garro, Varren, Rubio, possibly the imperial fist that denied Garro the first time, and the human Hassan are some of them. This being the case, it is certainly possible that they are at the siege before this (figuring that it is well underway or very close to its conclusion) and plenty of involvement could have happened with Loken thus far. Malcador is about to go to his sacrifice so maybe they get whisked away right after this meeting by the Emporer or some other method...?


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## nate187 (Feb 2, 2009)

I thought it was both the grey knights and the inquisition malcador formed with loken being the later. While we are talking about the grey knights just remember 

One unbreakable shield against the coming of the darkness
One final blade forged in the defiance of fate
Let them be my legacy to the galaxy I conquered 
And my final gift to the species I failed

Fucking love that quote


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## Valrak (Jul 23, 2011)

Loken has to Kill Little Horus Aximand, the short story 'Little Horus' all but confirmed this for me, the entire story is based around a figure that is follow Aximand and right at the end it reveals himself to be Loken which he is glad of because he knows the dead can't harm him...

Imagine Aximand in the Palace suddenly confronted by Loken, 

'This is for Tarik you b$%tard!'


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## Lord Lorne Walkier (Jul 19, 2009)

Lost&Damned said:


> id just like to use this thread to clarify somethings about the grey knights, just tell me if they are true or not.
> Only a few of the 8 seem to be psychic, i think therefore they would be more akin to honorary members which due to their extensive combat abilities (All having a high rank and/or prodigious abilities) and their faith aswell as experience (they more than others have witnessed the warp, their legions fell to chaos, they rejected their primarchs and stayed true to the Emperor while their legions, brothers and primarch betrayed him) would be tasked with training the actual Grey knights.
> Secondly, They dont have the Emperors gene seed, reinforcing point number 1.
> Also, since little horus is still alive, i assume loken still has a role.



I can understand why you think only few seem to be psychic but i think you are wrong. Of all the Astartes we know Garro recruits, only Varren has shown no sign of advanced mental abilities. I have argued that Loken, Garro have shown what i think are psychic powers from the games. Add Rubio and Masak from the IF and that makes 80% (4/5).

Regarding the Geenseed thing... is this more then just hear say/ rumor or has it been spelled out in a book i missed?


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

If Loken gets involved in the siege I don't see him surviving it. Let's be honest, as badass as it was for him to survive for so long after the betrayal, he'd want Abbaddon. Yeah, he'd want Aximand too, but he'd REAAAAAAAALLY want Abbaddon. Since we know that Abbaddon is alive an well in the 41st century. That means that Abbaddon vs Loken this time will likely end in Loken dead. We know that despite the rage he might feel, the best he could do against Horus would be to be the warrior who gets flayed. Either that or he runs into Doombreed and get's housed. Let's be honest here, Loken is a badass. But to survive on Horus's ship, even Primarch's were lucky to get off alive....the one that did.


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