# Best CC HQ Unit.



## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

Ok so best CC Hq unit (including wargear) in your opinion is?


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

I say Chaos Lord Of Khorne + blood Feeder+ juggernaught Str 5 + Plasma Pistol thats 7 attacks on the charge + 2D6 Power weapon attacks thats up to 19!!! str5 attacks. 175pts overall.


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## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

necron lord with warsycthe destroyer body and phase shifter

best combat weapon in the game good against infantry and tanks high enough strength do some damage and tough enough to stay in the game and with we'll be back he won'y be going anywhere for a long time.


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## Blackhiker (Dec 28, 2007)

Grey Knight Grand Master. He normally doesn't need any extra gear. :biggrin:


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## cccp (Dec 15, 2006)

yeah, a GK master is rock hard. but that 17 attack beast of death thing sounds pretty mean.


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## Metal_Ead (Jan 30, 2008)

The New Ork Warboss on bike with Power Claw, Slugga, Attack Squig, and Cybork Body is the best anti-tank character in the game with 7 Strength 10 power weapon attacks on the charge. Enough strength to toss those Monoliths into the stratosphere, and enough attacks to down even the Halo Falcon. He's no slouch for servivability ether with 4+ Armour, 4+ Cover, 5+ Invulnerable, toughness 5(6) and 3 wounds. Attach 'em to a squad of nobz bikers with a dok and he gains Feel-no-pain and a bunch of other benifits. 150 points.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

The biking warboss is my favorite CC HQ (warbike, attack squig, power klaw, and cybork body). T6, 7 str 10 power attacks (say goodbye to any other infantry HQ unit in the game, especially necron lord) on the charge, can stick him with biking nobs for even more insanity. The only problem is that he strikes last.

However, from a pure CC standpoint, I think the daemon prince with warptime and wings is better because he strikes in initiative order, which is a big factor for Ind. Characters who frequently get singled out and annihilated in CC. Unfortunately, while he is good in CC he usually gets shot to hell and back before he's in CC because he's a monstrous creature and therefore can't hide amongst the troops.

As awesome as the warboss is, if he gets into CC with a daemon prince, the prince has a decent shot of killing him before he gets to strike (even with FNP). He'll pretty much rape the demon sideways when his turn to strike comes, but it may not come. If both mortally wound the other (a distinct possibility), the demon will finish him off the next round.


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

I'll cast my vote for the Jebike Seer Council. They may not have power weapons, but they sure do a whole lot more besides. Very fast, very resilient, and with the ability to take out anything in the game with little fuss. Of course, you'll be paying out the nose points-wise, but if used well you'll not notice any discomfort.

Termie Command Squads may give this unit trouble, but I see nothing else that may.


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

got to be eldar

10 warlocks + farseer all using there pyschic powers

wounding on 2s 3+ attacks each

re roll to wound re roll to hit

cant beat that i dont think

put them on bikes too


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## Death Jester (Feb 6, 2008)

Oh it has to be the inquisition the deamon hunters and their hqs! Inquisitor lord and or grey knight grand master with icon of the just is just sweet!


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## shortgoth (Feb 5, 2008)

Single HQ IC? Probably something Chaos, not being a player of that army I couldn't give anything exact but they're always very choppy. I do love my Biker Warboss though, really impressive killing power but I1 all the time and even with T5(6) and all those saves can still be swamped to death since none of his saves are better than 4+.

Best HQ Selection? DE Wych Archite (with the usual toys)+Fully-decked Wych Retinue. Removing your extra CCW attack, cutting your WS in half, having 4+ inv saves for the entire squad (2+Inv for the Archite), I8 for the Archite and 6 for the Wyches, lots of power weapon attacks that always wound on 4+ (plus the normal wych's attacks that are a bit damp squib-like, but still plentiful), and combat drugs=death incarnate if you can get them into combat/keep them from being shot up. Plasma grenades means they always strike in I order and Haywires given them some decent tankbusting too.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Hespithe said:


> I'll cast my vote for the Jebike Seer Council. They may not have power weapons, but they sure do a whole lot more besides. Very fast, very resilient, and with the ability to take out anything in the game with little fuss. Of course, you'll be paying out the nose points-wise, but if used well you'll not notice any discomfort.
> 
> Termie Command Squads may give this unit trouble, but I see nothing else that may.


I'm thinking that any dedicated CC troops will rock their little space elf world. Their toughness is only 4. Pick equivalent points from any ork non-vehicle entry excepting possibly tankbustas and those troops will rock their world. Same holds true for much of the tyranid codex and CSM codex. 45 points per biker to get units that are as tough as a space marine with a 4+ invuln and lack power weapons just isn't worth it, even with fortune. What other unit can be 350 points and only have 10 attacks (14 on charge) and 7 wounds? 350 points of slugga boys is 174 attacks (232 on charge).
10uke:...174:biggrin:


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## Death Jester (Feb 6, 2008)

Wait! Inquistor lord with:

Inqusitor-45
Artifacier armour-15
Force weapon-40
Icon of the just-15
Scourging-20
=135

Retutine:
combat scrivitor*4=40
power fist + close combat weapon*4=60

acoylte*2= 16
power armou*2=20
bolt pistol*2=2

familiar *2 = 12

sage *1=10

total 295 but this retutine also gives the inquisitor 
+1 ws
+1 bs also reroll a miss
+2 I 
+2 extra pshychic powers if wished
and 2 wounds my be diverted off the inquisitor himself


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

Don't forget the Psychic powers.... rerollable 4++ save or 3++ save for the entire squad, and Str9/2+ to wound attacks at init 5 and 6? The Seer council is not as wimpy as many would have you believe.


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## Elchimpster (Jan 31, 2007)

Autarch with Warp Generator, Powersword and Fusion Blaster. My favorite HQ unit.


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## Lemartes (Dec 16, 2007)

Probably Winged Hive Tyrant tooled up for CC, this guy slaughters everyone.

Lemartes


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

Nah.... Winged Tyrants get slapped to the deck and ground underfoot by Abbadon the Meanie... That was the worst thing to ever happen to my Flyrant, and it happened so easily too.


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

yer the bike council is nice. 

hardest CHARACTER is proberly eldrad ulthran thought.
hardest HQ UNIT - librairan, chaplin, master in terminator armour and 10 termiantors with furious charge and 2 assault cannons all maxed out lol

P.S the warlocks can have 2 attacks each. and shoot the hell out of you all game and not even get in combat with you!!!! so ur 200+ attacks are pointless !!!


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

abbadon for character wise

demon prince for just a HQ choice


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

Some interesting choices here I like the mixed Variety.


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## dred73 (Jan 24, 2008)

well i would say for characters either of the ctans they are just nasty I have never seen one killed by a single character ever the only thing ive seen kill them in cc was a 7 man termy squad with shields and hammers.

for the commander and squad id have to say shriek and his squad of total bad asses I mean come on 3 attacks on the charge for each guy and they all have got lightning claws not to mention the freaking page long list of special rules like infiltrate and stealth and I think they even scout to lets just say every time i think of it I shiver.


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## njfed (Jan 28, 2008)

Ummm, I kind of found out for myself...

http://home.comcast.net/~njfed/oneonone.htm

Hmmm, I'm going to have to add the Khorne guy to the program.


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

its warlockd with farseer on bikes nvm the points you said hq choice and thats a choice


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

I'm really surprised that no one has voted for the Dark Eldar... with a commander with a 2++ save and a handful of high init guys with power weapons on hand as a retinue... they should at least be in contention...


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## Dreamseller (Nov 15, 2007)

Gore Hunter said:


> I say Chaos Lord Of Khorne + blood Feeder+ juggernaught Str 5 + Plasma Pistol thats 7 attacks on the charge + 2D6 Power weapon attacks thats up to 19!!! str5 attacks. 175pts overall.


i tried it once and OUCH i got lucky and got a double 6 the full 19 attacks on the charch attacked once killed a entire platoon of imperial guard and yarrick


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

Dreamseller said:


> i tried it once and OUCH i got lucky and got a double 6 the full 19 attacks on the charch attacked once killed a entire platoon of imperial guard and yarrick


imperial guard phhhft


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## Vxx (Feb 7, 2008)

I know that for the points cost, Khorne has pretty much got everyone beat but there are a few other HQ's that should be respected. One of which has been mentioned already. They are the Dark Eldar Lord, Lelith Hesperax and the Sisters of Battle Cannoness. 

The DE Lord and Lelith are both very potent HQ's with their abilities to use an Agoniser, Shadow Field and Combat Drugs. Their high initiative and WS, decent number of attacks, 2+ invulnerable save and the Agonisers wound anything on a 4+ rule can make even a Wraithlord nervous. Throw the Lord on a Jetbike and you have increased toughness and maneuverability. If you give the Lord a retinue of Incubi and skate them around on a Raider, slaughtering troops has never been so fun, especially when you sweeping advance an enemy unit and take them back to Commorragh to be your own personal slaves! The downside to these HQ's is their low toughness (able to be insta-killed with a lowly S6 weapon) and if you fail one save with the shadow field, its gone and in most cases, so is your HQ. 

The Cannoness is probably my favorite HQ in the game. She is not an insanely powerful character that slaughter's everything in her path. She is a cunning and subtle Sister that is versatile and hits hard when you dont expect it. Her quality wargear and the ability to use faith points to augment her in battle is what makes her special. She can have a 2+ save and that can be made invulnerable through the use of a faith point. She can be given a Blessed weapon which brings her strength up to 5 and is a master crafted power weapon and that can be brought up to S7 with another faith point (although her initiative drops to 1 if you do that). You can choose to not increase her strength and kick her initiative up to 6 if needed. She can be equiped with an Inferno Pistol which is basically a short range melta and with a BS of 5 she is going to be able to hit what shes aiming at. Give her a book of St. Lucius and she gives anyone close to her an unmodified leadership of 10. Strap a jump pack on her to increase her mobility and you have one rockin' chick for around 140pts. She can fly up on a tank, pop it then jump into a unit of troops and start swinging. Mine has taken down multiple Daemon Princes, sweeping advanced a full unit of 20 Necron warriors with a lord attached, popped a few dreadnoughts and never fails to impress me or my opponents.


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## jakkie (Dec 21, 2007)

do spec. units count? if so id go with the Nightbringer (Str 10 no armour/inv saves)
360pts

T8 ws6 w5 a5 i4 ld10 4+inv save 
gaze of death


if not, the Necron Lord with Destroyer body, warscythe, phase shifter and phylactery
180pts

Warscythe - ignores armou/inv saves
destroyer body - T6
Phase shifter - 4+ inv save
Phylactery - chance to come back with all 3 wounds
Lord - ws4 s5 ld10 3+save We'll be back


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## Lord Sinkoran (Dec 23, 2006)

Metal_Ead said:


> The New Ork Warboss on bike with Power Claw, Slugga, Attack Squig, and Cybork Body is the best anti-tank character in the game with 7 Strength 10 power weapon attacks on the charge. Enough strength to toss those Monoliths into the stratosphere, and enough attacks to down even the Halo Falcon. He's no slouch for servivability ether with 4+ Armour, 4+ Cover, 5+ Invulnerable, toughness 5(6) and 3 wounds. Attach 'em to a squad of nobz bikers with a dok and he gains Feel-no-pain and a bunch of other benifits. 150 points.


that sound nasty!!!!!!!!!!1


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

On the seer council - assuming you've taken enhance and fortune and some other warlock powers and runes for the farseer but no singing spears, you're looking at 350 points for 10 attacks that hit probably on a 3+ and wound on a 2+ but don't ignore saves at high init. This translates out to 2.79 wounds. 350 points worth of your guys kill a single MEQ or 2-3 weaker troops like orks or gaunts or guard. Maybe 2 MEQs on a charge and 4 or 5 weaker troops. For 350 points. That's awful. Even if you lose none and they spend every round of the game in CC with thousand sons and never lose a single member of their squad you're still not looking at even getting half their points back. Against cheaper units they're failing even harder. In shooting with this same 350-point 5-man squad you're looking at about 9 str 4 ap 5 hits. Even if you doomed your foe against T4 you're still inflicting about 6.75 wounds at a 12" range. However, this would require you to have doom and spirit stones, bringing it up to a 400 point squad. For my points 400 points worth of army should be able to do a damn sight more than 2 dead marines in optimal shooting or assaulting.

Let's say they're fighting shoota boys. Equivalent points (54 boyz, 5 big shootas). The jetbikes get the drop on them if they use cover. 7 boys go down. Boys return fire. Ork player picks up 99 dice. Gets an average of 19 wounds against the seers. 2 warlocks go down after rerolling their 3+ save. At this point the ork player has lost 42 points, the eldar player has lost 90. The Ork has lost about 1/6th of his shooting power, the eldar has lost 2/5ths. The numbers are just as bad if not even worse for the eldar in assault.

Biking seers are neat but for their points they fail in both melee and shooting. The only thing they're really good at is taking down slow vehicles and walkers. They definitely fall short of best CC HQ. I'd take 2 biking warbosses over them any day.


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## neilbatte (Jan 2, 2008)

The Eldar also have the autarch on jet bike with mandiblasers and star lance ws 6 5 str 8
attacks on the charge init 6 and a 3+ 4+inv save and mobile whats not to like hes even better if attatched to shining spears for the hit and run


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

Chaplain - Terminator armour
- Storm Bolter
W/Terminator Command squad
- Furious Charge

So, thats 4 Base attacks for the chaplain, +1 on the charge, +2 attacks from each terminator, 10 attacks, 15 on the charge, 20 attacks overall, 10 with powerfists 5 with Crozius Archanem and with Furious Charge you get +1 Initiative and +1 Strength...


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

Yup, the Autarch/Spears combo is sweet... and I've used it often, lol. A very good unit, but sadly a one-hit-wonder. They MUST wipe the enemy out in one charge or face the ugly consequences.


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

i never seen points in the title culler

but i see your point

imagine 6 pheonix lords instead then >_<


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## njfed (Jan 28, 2008)

Allright, I ran the Chaos Lord of Khorne thru my program and he did not do as well as everyone thinks he would.

If you look at the rankings here...
http://home.comcast.net/~njfed/oneonone.htm

He ranks at 14.5 between the Chapter Librarian and the Necron Destoyer Lord.
His scores were 46 as attacker, 40 as defender and a 43.0 overall.
This score is based on 1000 fights against every other opponant on the list.

The Nurgle Lord beat him 60 percent of the time. His toughness of 4 means he will die from instant death and the daemon weapon did as much harm as it helped. In short, any of the other three chaos HQs I tested did better in CC for less points.

I really need to get back to updating the program so I can run squads thru it.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Interesting program. Would be better to also account for point costs though. A 261 point unit performing better than a 93 point unit is hardly surprising or helpful. Dividing their 'score' by their cost would be a good idea to come up with an efficiency rating aka 'killiness'


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

njfed said:


> Allright, I ran the Chaos Lord of Khorne thru my program and he did not do as well as everyone thinks he would.
> 
> If you look at the rankings here...
> http://home.comcast.net/~njfed/oneonone.htm
> ...


ohhh yessss....


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

also just noticed about tau.

commander farsight and his massive retenue could be quite good sheer amount of str5 attacks and his power weapons oviously there inicative is poor but can be increased (i think or could)

martin


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## Frostbite (Oct 17, 2007)

I also noticed that the Tau commander was armed with the worst combination of guns for to go character hunting with. Perhaps if you gave him a Plasma Rifle and Fusion Blaster, he might just do better. I'd say nearly half of the non monstrous creatures would be toasted by the guns alone without any chance at getting to hand to hand. I wouldn't use Farsight unless you're doing a special character edition, he and his retinue are monsters in hand to hand, but so is Marneus Calgar and his honor guard.


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

njfed said:


> Ummm, I kind of found out for myself...
> 
> http://home.comcast.net/~njfed/oneonone.htm
> 
> Hmmm, I'm going to have to add the Khorne guy to the program.


Yeah but this is Hq thread not all CC models and we are including Wargear.


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## njfed (Jan 28, 2008)

Culler said:


> Interesting program. Would be better to also account for point costs though. A 261 point unit performing better than a 93 point unit is hardly surprising or helpful. Dividing their 'score' by their cost would be a good idea to come up with an efficiency rating aka 'killiness'


I was going to go that direction, but decided to leave that type of analysis up to everyone else. I think the data gives a better understanding of how far off the point values can be presented as is. I understnad that there are other factors that can account for the point cost like special abiltites. However, you often end up paying for abilities that never get used. I like specialized units because they are point cost efficient compared to units/models that can do a little of everything.

Oh, and the thought of a CC carnifex being able to run in 5th edition is keeping me up at night.


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

njfed said:


> Oh, and the thought of a CC carnifex being able to run in 5th edition is keeping me up at night.


Heh, I sleep soundly knowing that squad leaders with powerfists make those incredibly slow buggers cry even if they do make it in.


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

i was about to say karrandras but that chaos madafaka takes the cake...seriousy 17 powerweapon attacks wadafak?!


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## Moschaboy (Jan 5, 2007)

yeah 17... unless you roll one 1 on 2d6, then he hits himself in the face... so it's pretty much an all or nothing sollution. besides, he walks 6" a turn and can neither be transported nor deepstruck, so you can easily avoid him. and it still got a 3+ armor and 5+ inv save at toughness 4 so instant killing him with a pfist or lascannon is pretty easy


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

OW and what about the forge world greater deamons there sick like completly sick !!!

so with that i would say chaos


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

martin4696 said:


> OW and what about the forge world greater deamons there sick like completly sick !!!
> 
> so with that i would say chaos


yeah ive seen the plague one its awesme


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## ryan l (Feb 11, 2008)

*chaos*

i think chaos is the best so stick it up yas .:threaten:


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

I also Find that Daemon Princes are very good especially seeing as they can have Psychic Powers.


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

Grand master has the best combat weapon in the game Nemesis Force Weapon equals dead hq


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## Metal_Ead (Jan 30, 2008)

I voted for the Ork Warboss on bike, but has anyone thought about Prince Yriel of Iyanden? WS 6, BS 6, I 7. Spear Of Twilight wounds on 2+, no armour saves. He also has the Eye of wrath that Ordanances in hand to hand with strength 6 AP 3. I guess his downside is his wussy toughness 3.:wink:


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## KharnTheBetrayer86 (Feb 26, 2008)

Excluding the special characters, I would stick with the Khornate Champion.
Lose the juggernaught, give him terminator armour (2+ armour save, 5+ invun) and he can deepstrike, meaning only having to put up with one round of being gunned down...and thats what a retinue is there for (yay 40+ point meat shields)
Sadly the Deamon weapon is two handed, so the plasma pistol add-on is a no no.

Evidentally its allowable to put the chaos lord on a bike with a demon weapon though...(toughness 5, 4+ (?) invunerable save when turbo-boosting, gets into combat at latest turn three, then the On average 12 power weapon attacks come into it.)


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

Metal_Ead said:


> I voted for the Ork Warboss on bike, but has anyone thought about Prince Yriel of Iyanden? WS 6, BS 6, I 7. Spear Of Twilight wounds on 2+, no armour saves. He also has the Eye of wrath that Ordanances in hand to hand with strength 6 AP 3. I guess his downside is his wussy toughness 3.:wink:


Does he have an invul? Otherwise "Lascannon to the face!" becomes a viable option...

My vote goes to Abaddon the Despoiler. 

-Dirge


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## Hornet (Feb 22, 2008)

Tau battle suit by far!!!!:grin:

Seriously though, I'll have to go with Jetbikeing farseer, and jetbiking warlocks.

Str 9 throwing spears to deal with tanks and other nastys, and not to meantion 2+ to wound in combat. and 3+/4+ re-rollable invun save.

Also destructor psy power, Heavy flamers galor!!!

Will get cheesed VS any unit with decent armour, like that Khorne deamon riding monstrocity!!!


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## Cadian81st (Dec 24, 2006)

Hornet said:


> Tau battle suit by far!!!!:grin:
> 
> Seriously though, I'll have to go with Jetbikeing farseer, and jetbiking warlocks.
> 
> ...


and my vindicaire will have a hayday blowing his head off. :biggrin:

personally, i prefer a tricked out inquisitor, not so much for raw combat potential, but for the support abilities it offers. Emperor's Tarot, for examples, pretty much guaruntees a first turn. And with the various anti-psyker powers available, especially to the ordo malleus, enemy psykers become pretty much useless. 

of course, if you prefer pure offensive power, there's always the good ol' deathwatch killteam! :good:


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## GhostBear (Feb 17, 2008)

Nightbringer. MC and all that entails along with some nasty special rules that just plain rock.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I voted Marines because Blood Angels wasn't an option. Mephiston is freaking godtly.

The GK Chapter Master is scary as hell, but Mephy is just a big pile of rape and win.


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

Galahad said:


> I voted Marines because Blood Angels wasn't an option. Mephiston is freaking godtly.
> 
> The GK Chapter Master is scary as hell, but Mephy is just a big pile of rape and win.


thing is Abbaddon can rape the shit out of almost any Hq Str8 can have up to11 attacks and initiative 6 and 4 wounds his 2+ armour save and 4+ invulnerable means he can survive gunfire hes Ws 7 and T5 and hes immune to instant death and not that he needs it much but he can reroll to wound.


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

Abbaddon is to powerful, the ownly way to kill it is with guns


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## Nightbringer416 (Feb 16, 2008)

Green Knight said:


> Abbaddon is to powerful, the ownly way to kill it is with guns


or with star gods. any of the necrons hq choices are pretty nasty in assault.

my nec melee army has 
lord on dest body, gaze of flame, lightning arc, phase shifter, warscythe.
lightning arc has saved me many of times from losing combat.

the deciever and the nightbriinger are pretty nasty too.
I use the deciever S9 T8 I5 4W 4A
dread- take LD if failed you only hit on a six in asault.
misdirect- during your assault phase i can leave combat, cast misdirect on my turn, shoot you with everything i got then charge my deciever in again. yey:biggrin:


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## Coffeemug (Jan 4, 2008)

master of sanctity, on bike w/ thunder hammer, crozium, artificer armor, term honors, and mantel: 230pts, 6 attacks(w/re-roll to hit on charge) toughness 5, cant be instant killed, 12 inch move, 24 inch turbo w/2+ invul not to mention the 2+ sv/4+invul. ive used this monster several times and he rarely disappoints


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

Nightbringer416 said:


> or with star gods. any of the necrons hq choices are pretty nasty in assault.
> 
> my nec melee army has
> lord on dest body, gaze of flame, lightning arc, phase shifter, warscythe.
> ...


Unfortunately For them Abbaddons I6 and up 11 attacks at str 8 Means that he has a high chance of Mincing + He can Reroll all fails to wound.
Ps. whats there WS?


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

i think there ws is 5 or 6 maybe wrong 

ok then 11 attacks hitting on 3s 

7.3 hits
2.4 wounds (s8 vs t9) and i dont think u can re roll would can you??
if so thats another 1.6 wounds so a total of 4 wounds 
of which 2 are saved (4 up invun) 3 wounds left

then the night bringer attacks back which is going to do 2-3 wounds with no save and instant killin (i guess abadone is amune)

so the night bringer would proberly win hands down consedering he has his shooting attack as well, and those stats above are from you charging and getting a 6 for your added attacks, also you may get a 1 so dont attack (daemon weapon)

martin
martin


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## Nightbringer416 (Feb 16, 2008)

it's 5 but, you can hit me in assault unless i want you too. I can just leave assault . you wont get your charge bonus, because i leave assault. then if do decicde to charge in assault during my turn and you go first i still have 4+ invuln saves like stated above. If some how you survive all this I still have plan B. S6 supernova d6" range when I die. Another thing when you charge a c'tan you have to take an LD test which is another possibility of not getting into assault. (this is the deciever, the night bringer cannot leave assault)


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## Kronus (Mar 1, 2008)

Much as I would like to say Daemonhunters as I am big shiny GK fan Dark Eldar have hands down the nastiest psycho HQ in the 40k universe. People talk about the nightbringer being hard but in reality he is slow and easy to avoid and as result rarely taken. Other people seem to think Abaddon is the best about with I6. A Dark Eldar archon is killing machine once loaded up with I7, a 2+ inv save, an agoniser and a silly amount of attacks and that’s just to start. A fully suped up one costs an absolute fortune and when mounted on a Raider he has a effective 36" assault range. He will always get the charge, hit first and then very quickly kill whatever gets in his way. This is not surprising as the character is reflective of a by gone era (the DE codex being very old) when characters where at one time super hard

Its worth mentioning that in a one on one between most of these HQ's Zogwort, the Ork Weirdboy would properly win out. At 140pts he is now the most dangerous anti-independant character unit model with a psychic power that turns Independant character to squigs on a 4+. I can tell you from personal experience Abaddon look’s very funny as a squig


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

Lord Kronus said:


> Much as I would like to say Daemonhunters as I am big shiny GK fan Dark Eldar have hands down the nastiest psycho HQ in the 40k universe. People talk about the nightbringer being hard but in reality he is slow and easy to avoid and as result rarely taken. Other people seem to think Abaddon is the best about with I6. A Dark Eldar archon is killing machine once loaded up with I7, a 2+ inv save, an agoniser and a silly amount of attacks and that’s just to start. A fully suped up one costs an absolute fortune and when mounted on a Raider he has a effective 36" assault range. He will always get the charge, hit first and then very quickly kill whatever gets in his way. This is not surprising as the character is reflective of a by gone era (the DE codex being very old) when characters where at one time super hard
> 
> Its worth mentioning that in a one on one between most of these HQ's Zogwort, the Ork Weirdboy would properly win out. At 140pts he is now the most dangerous anti-independant character unit model with a psychic power that turns Independant character to squigs on a 4+. I can tell you from personal experience Abaddon look’s very funny as a squig


i agree with the DE bit bar 1 thing there not expensive i think lith is about 120- 140 odd points MAX. but once you lose that 2+ u are f**ked to put it blankly (my squad of 7 yes 7 gaurdians killed a fully loaded de lord just with the shear amount of attacks, there are great at picking off small units but large units will just woop there arse.

and yes but isnt that a power?? and the chaos can do that as well but they can have the power on a deamon prince :good: (gift of chaos) and zogworts snt that hard to kill anyway lets face it.

p.s about the deciever thing, if you were JUST going to combat why would you not choose the nightbringer hes just alot better at combat.

martin


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## Kronus (Mar 1, 2008)

martin4696 said:


> i agree with the DE bit bar 1 thing there not expensive i think lith is about 120- 140 odd points MAX. but once you lose that 2+ u are f**ked to put it blankly (my squad of 7 yes 7 gaurdians killed a fully loaded de lord just with the shear amount of attacks, there are great at picking off small units but large units will just woop there arse.
> 
> and yes but isnt that a power?? and the chaos can do that as well but they can have the power on a deamon prince :good: (gift of chaos) and zogworts snt that hard to kill anyway lets face it.
> 
> ...


My apologies. I read through my post again and realised I had suggested a DE Archon costs a rather excessive amount which as you pointed out isn’t the case. Thinking back I was considering the total price of his HQ unit as nearly every archon I have ever seen arrayed against me is mounted on a raider with a lethal Incubi retinue. AS for losing his shadowfield as just mentioned rare is the Archon who doesn’t have a retinue to take the pain for him and spare his shadowfield the work. Also I was considering it in a purely cc context where the shadowfield rocks

As for Zogworts Curse its far superior to gift of chaos. Gift of Chaos has a range of 6” while Zogs Curse has a range of 18”. With Gift of Chaos you must use a D6 to beat your intended targets toughness, not always easy while Zogs Curses you just have to roll higher on a D6 then your opponent giving you a 50% chance of success (I said 4+ previously, that was a typo on my part, ye gods any more sloppy mistakes, shan’t happen again). As you normally always group Zog with a big 30 strong mob of Boyz he should pass his perils test with ease and isn’t half bad in cc. While he is unlikely to get the first hit in with I3 (I4 on charge) the mob will absorb the runs before he hits back with up to 10 power weapon attacks that wound on a 2+. Not the best but certainly not shabby


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

Lord Kronus said:


> As for Zogworts Curse its far superior to gift of chaos. Gift of Chaos has a range of 6” while Zogs Curse has a range of 18”. With Gift of Chaos you must use a D6 to beat your intended targets toughness, not always easy while Zogs Curses you just have to roll higher on a D6 then your opponent giving you a 50% chance of success (I said 4+ previously, that was a typo on my part, ye gods any more sloppy mistakes, shan’t happen again). As you normally always group Zog with a big 30 strong mob of Boyz he should pass his perils test with ease and isn’t half bad in cc. While he is unlikely to get the first hit in with I3 (I4 on charge) the mob will absorb the runs before he hits back with up to 10 power weapon attacks that wound on a 2+. Not the best but certainly not shabby


fair enought.


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## Nightbringer416 (Feb 16, 2008)

martin4696 said:


> p.s about the deciever thing, if you were JUST going to combat why would you not choose the nightbringer hes just alot better at combat.
> 
> martin


a lot of ppl seem to think so but, i think the deciever is better and cheaper. not in strength but in strategy. it's the fact that he leaves combat during the enemies assault move that sold me.


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

I hope to test out both C'tan soon as my necron army has just finished.

but for now my vote still goes to Chaos.

im surprised no space marines have been mentioned for this i dont think.


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## hearthlord (Nov 16, 2007)

I like the ork Warboss on a bike. Being able of move 24'' is being underrated.


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

Whats the stats on an ork warboss?


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

On a bike with a powerklaw, attack squig and cybork body (standard setup for biker warboss) it's ws 5 bs 2 s 5(10) t 5(6) w 3 i 4 a 5 Ld 9 Sv 4+(5++ and 4+ cover). total cost: 150

He's basically a carnifex on wheels who can use IC rules to avoid getting shot.


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

Nightbringer416 said:


> a lot of ppl seem to think so but, i think the deciever is better and cheaper. not in strength but in strategy. it's the fact that he leaves combat during the enemies assault move that sold me.


i would usualy agree with you as in games i think the deciver is so much better (makes your army more effective) but this is about pure attacking power and for me the nightbringer wins EVERY time imo


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

cant say ive used either C'tan properly yet... Hope to soon as my Necron army has just finished.


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## Nightbringer416 (Feb 16, 2008)

martin4696 said:


> i would usualy agree with you as in games i think the deciver is so much better (makes your army more effective) but this is about pure attacking power and for me the nightbringer wins EVERY time imo


i guess in stopping power i agree with you. In CC overall around different story.


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

martin4696 said:


> i think there ws is 5 or 6 maybe wrong
> 
> ok then 11 attacks hitting on 3s
> 
> ...


Abbadon is Immune to Instant Death and has a 4+ invulnerable and 4 wounds and is WS7


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

Gore Hunter said:


> Abbadon is Immune to Instant Death and has a 4+ invulnerable and 4 wounds and is WS7


instant death makes a differnce yes the invun doesnt and neither does the ws as you are already hitting on 3s.

so turn one (In combat) Abbadon strike first does 2 wounds , nightbringer attacks back causing 3 (Abbadon 1 left, night bringer 3 left)

turn 2 you attack again causing 1-2 wounds , nightbringer attacks back casueing 2 wounds your dead and he has 1-2 wounds left. but if you were 24 inch away he could shoot you 2-3 times first as well.

martin


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

martin4696 said:


> instant death makes a differnce yes the invun doesnt and neither does the ws as you are already hitting on 3s.
> 
> so turn one (In combat) Abbadon strike first does 2 wounds , nightbringer attacks back causing 3 (Abbadon 1 left, night bringer 3 left)
> 
> ...


The Night Bringer has 5 attacks? and does he ignore invulnerable saves?


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## martin4696 (Oct 30, 2007)

yes and yes


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## Alexander (Mar 4, 2008)

I am going to say Chaos. Their HQ, if is well equipped, tend to do a lot of harm.


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## Andros (Dec 10, 2007)

I've played against Nightbringer with Abbadon and I won, lost two wounds, and he didn't get rid of the invunerable save, and seeing as it was a Necron Player who runs the store, I think he'd know, unless he overlooked it.

Abbadon is Strength 8 with at least 3 +D6 attacks, and rerolls to wound thanks to Talon of Horus (being Lighting Claw he still gets the effects despite it only being one) and that Immune to Instant Death really stings when you have an Instant Death Armour (cough) Tau Hammerheads/Broadsides (cough)

Heck, Nightbringer lost in the first round of combat against Abbandon, despite being Strength 10


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

Thats my point see I've beaten the Nightbringer with Abbaddon 3 out of the three times I agree his 4+ invulnerable and immune to instant death armour is great but it was his initiative 6 that really helped, and the same goes for me I've never bean told that the Night Bringer ignores invulnerable saves.


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## Desolatemm (Feb 2, 2008)

Eldar have some beastly CC characters. All the pheonix lords can kick some ass, Prince Yriel, the Avatar. And not to mention the renound Harlequin Troupe. I forsee a rise in Scorpions again if the Harlies rending rule goes from the to-hit to the to-wound. And the shining spears..... beautiful beautiful lance weaponry.


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## Nightbringer416 (Feb 16, 2008)

Gore Hunter said:


> Thats my point see I've beaten the Nightbringer with Abbaddon 3 out of the three times I agree his 4+ invulnerable and immune to instant death armour is great but it was his initiative 6 that really helped, and the same goes for me I've never bean told that the Night Bringer ignores invulnerable saves.



hmm i've never battled abbadon so i'll take your word for it. I'm not sure about the invuln save thing it might be in the c'tan special rules. i'll check and post again later today.


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

I will check now.


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

YES both the C'tan ignore armour saving throws AND invulnerable saving throws...


EDIT- I think somebody said up there that Nightbringer was WS 5, he is WS 6. not entirely sure someone said it was 5 i think i may have read wrong but he is most definately WS 6.


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## Nightbringer416 (Feb 16, 2008)

yep they do ignore and yea hes ws 6 the deciever is ws5


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

Been a Chaos and Necron player, i can, honestly say that... I cant choose between the two haha


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

Has no one considered Ghazzgull Thraka, ive never played with him but he butchered my lord a few years ago, i still remeber every detail.
Whats the stats on this green monster.

EDIT- sorry for the double post i forgot lol... have mercyyy


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

foulacy said:


> Has no one considered Ghazzgull Thraka, ive never played with him but he butchered my lord a few years ago, i still remeber every detail.
> Whats the stats on this green monster.
> 
> EDIT- sorry for the double post i forgot lol... have mercyyy


He's good I used Typhus against him Typhus Came out on topThanks to his Force weapon and striking first but he is good no Doubts there I mean that 2+ invulnerable Waaaaggghh ability is fucking annoying when used at the right time.

Ws 6
Bs ?
S 5/10
T5
w4
I 4
A ?
Ld 10
Sv 2+/5+/2+(for Waaarrrghhhh)

Thats What I know


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

haha thanks.


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## Vanchet (Feb 28, 2008)

I have to say a GK grandmaster (destroy daemon,sacred incense, grimoire of true names, Conserected scrolls and icon of the just) no daemon can survive (which would include the avatar of khaine)


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

Vanchet said:


> I have to say a GK grandmaster (destroy daemon,sacred incense, grimoire of true names, Conserected scrolls and icon of the just) no daemon can survive (which would include the avatar of khaine)


Thats great against Daemons but against numbers enemies like Nids its not so Great AKA even a Brude Lord can Wrench him to Pieces + A Lord of Slaanesh with a Blissgiver could kill him I6 Instant Death(not classed as a Force Weapon) arounds the vicinity of 11 attacks max (5+D6) on the charge.


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## MarzM (Jan 26, 2007)

Yriel is Key!

So im told! lol

MarzM


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

Yriel is very good, in all aspects of play. Though there is better, myt vote still goes to typhus, he may not be the strongest in combat, but he is so tough and hard to bring down he can take alot out. 4 wounds 2+ armour save and toughness 5, plus hes a powerful physker and always passes phsycic tests, ohh and like it wasnt good enough, but that manreaper giant sycthe counts as a daemon weapon and a force weapon. Plus if he wounds you but then you save it he can then kill you with a succesfull phsyker test.


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

Any one field ahriman, i also think he can be a monster of a HQ choice.


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

i've Fielded all of them Ahriman is Great against everyone except Kharn (he's pretty Fucked against Kharn) his large stock of Psychic powers is useful and a 4+ invulnerable. Although I'd still choose Typhus to win FNP Terminator Armour T5.


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## Vanchet (Feb 28, 2008)

Actually if anyone is tough now would have to be abbadon (as much as I hate the guy) Immune to inst death, I6 possibly 11 st8 power weapon attacks with RE_ROLLS to wound (he's one tough cookie)


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

I know, maddness isnt it. Like abbadon needs re rolls to wound when he pretty much destroys anything in combat exept the nightbringer.

(not saying he would loose to the nightbringer just saying it would be close)

But Gore Hunter i couldnt agree more. For toughness factor Typhus is the one, plus i think alot of non-chaos players underestimate him in CC, big mistake IMO with a weapon that is classes as a force weapon and a daemon weapon, any wounds that are saved he can then inflict that wound back with a succesfull psycic test. Monster, MONSTER I TELL THEE.

Plus his fluff is great and his model is too.

Ive never used kharn, always feared he would turn on me and cut my own marines up.


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

foulacy said:


> I know, maddness isnt it. Like abbadon needs re rolls to wound when he pretty much destroys anything in combat exept the nightbringer.
> 
> (not saying he would loose to the nightbringer just saying it would be close)
> 
> ...



I Field Kharn alot Generally He either stays alive and does'nt do anything
Or does Massive damage and dies 
I had a Battle the Other day He killed Mephiston 5 Death Company a Predator (the Lascannon one) and A chaplain before dying. as for the betrayor he killed about 3 of my Zerkers still he always hits on 2+ which makes it pretty hard to Betray your men I generally don't worry about it The Bersekers help him survive Firepower.


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

However Guard can be pretty good Hq's maxed out with advisors + Wargear and all the Bonus Platoons its probably the Only army that can field a Hq with A lot of Firepower numbers and combat weapons (for advisors).


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

Gore Hunter said:


> I Field Kharn alot Generally He either stays alive and does'nt do anything
> Or does Massive damage and dies
> I had a Battle the Other day He killed Mephiston 5 Death Company a Predator (the Lascannon one) and A chaplain before dying. as for the betrayor he killed about 3 of my Zerkers still he always hits on 2+ which makes it pretty hard to Betray your men I generally don't worry about it The Bersekers help him survive Firepower.


Pretty much the same here, depends how much there targetted though, Id love to see all the 4 chaos cultist lords going HtH. see who would win.

Typhus Vs Kharn
Lucious Vs Ahriman
Typhus Vs Lucious
Kharn Vs Ahriman
Typhus Vs Ahriman
Lucious Vs Kharn

Any one do the math-hammer on that haha.


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## sneakNINJA (Jan 24, 2008)

Chaos- Daemon Prince with wings and lash of submission, S6 T5 4W WS7 for 155pts. Can screw over 2+ squads in a turn (lash is not a shooting attack, so you can still charge a different squad). Lash creates degenerate combos with blast and ordnance weapons. 

Eldar-Again, the ability to create broken synergies with farseers and other units (fortune/guide, etc.), or to attack at a very high initiative with a s6 power weapon on a jetbike (autarch) and a high WS is also very good.


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

Way a head of you here's the results of the outcomes

Typhus Vs Kharn _Typhus (2 out of 3)_
Lucious Vs Ahriman _Ahriman (3 out of 3)_
Typhus Vs Lucious _Typhus (2 out of three)_
Kharn Vs Ahriman _Kharn (three out of three)_
Typhus Vs Ahriman _Ahriman (2 out of three)_
Lucious Vs Kharn _Kharn (3 out of three)_


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

poor lucious


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

foulacy said:


> poor lucious


Ditto I just don't think Slaanesh gifted him well enough (other than the immortality thing)


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## warmster4 (Mar 9, 2008)

I like hive tyrant but I collect marines


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

I find that a Tyranid Brude Lord + Genestealer retinue is very Deadly but to easy to gun down with light Fire power


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

I've just found out how Awsome Sorcerers can be AKA 
MON+ bike + familiar = T6 Force weapon + 2x psychic powers + moves 12 inches
MOT+ bike + familiar = T5 Force weapon + 3x Pschic powers + 4+ invulnerable


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## lightmonkey (Apr 1, 2008)

although i collect nids i have had my far share of dark elder run ins. almost 70% of the time i just have to swamp the lord with gaunts or attacks just to wound it. They are preaty nasty.

The fact that nids have no inv save can make this very anoying when fighting stuff that does.


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

Arcon + combat drugs + agoiser + shadow field (2+ inv save atill fail)= one beasty HQ


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

Whats an Archons Basic Armour save?


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

Suprisingly Guard have awsome Hq's too the I mean with all the advisors and Squads you can attach they can unleash some pretty nasty Firepower


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

archor has a 5+ save


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

so lots of bolter fire and he will eventually lose his 2+ save its basics really
but yes he is awsome in CC.


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## solitaire (Mar 24, 2008)

I say Orks because for relatively few points a warboss can smash marines and nids alike with ease. Also because he lets you have a nobz squad as troops.


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

Grey Knight Grand Master with Nemesis Force Weapon and Daemon Hammer, Holocaust Psykic power, Icon of the Just, and Sacred Incense.

Thats 5 Attacks base, 6 on the charge at Str 6 Init 5, 4+ Invuln, reduces Chaos Init by one, can strike daemons at Str 8 Init 5, can kill a model outright with his force weapon OR drop a Str 5 Large Blast Template at the end of combat. 

This is my standard build + or - the Sacred Incense if Im fighting Chaos.


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## Sieg (Dec 3, 2007)

If we are allowed to say special characters then it is Shrike all the way. Other wise it is the GK Grand master.


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

a rune priest with a frost blade storm caller and a tooth necklace artificer armor + halo


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

hear, hear Bishop120 grand masters are ace my best model in 40k my opinion


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

Grand masters Are ace there only Flaw is Initiative I'd say Aka a Slaanesh Lord + Blissgiver could put him back in his Place.


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## lightmonkey (Apr 1, 2008)

Coffeemug said:


> master of sanctity, on bike w/ thunder hammer, crozium, artificer armor, term honors, and mantel: 230pts, 6 attacks(w/re-roll to hit on charge) toughness 5, cant be instant killed, 12 inch move, 24 inch turbo w/2+ invul not to mention the 2+ sv/4+invul. ive used this monster several times and he rarely disappoints


ya my brother used one before almost identical. then he was blasted by gaunts...... 6 saves, 4 1's............ :headbutt:

just to say that he was blasted with about 30 gaunts.............


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

Grand master can be i6 by sacrid insence


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

even I6 won't save you Blissgiver does instant adds D6 attacks and counts as a Power weapon and it does'nt count as a Psychic Power so it will be able to kill a Grand master + its cheaper.


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

rune priest baby all the way check out his skillz


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

Icon of the just will give the grand master 4+ inv save


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

Thats great but I'd still have enough attacks to make sure you'd fail in the end.


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

he will have terminators with him


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

what range dus it have


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

OK it is cc weapon


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

Green Knight stop been biast towards a Grand Master, you keep trying to "prove" that hes better.

Dp still for me all the way, evan before i stared Chaos i was scared of those things.


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## Shadowfane (Oct 17, 2007)

I could go into pages and pages as to why my choice, but it basically boils down to:

Agoniser + shadowfield + combat drugs > any special rules your model hapens to have...


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## Caledor (Jan 15, 2008)

For me, either Shrike and Shrike's Wing (Shrike can cause major damage with master-crafted, rending lightning claws) or a GK GM with a full bodyguard.


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

I personally think that Shrikes just a cheaper version of a commander I mean the Rending ability is'nt that good really.


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

sorry love the model to much


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

Dark Eldar archon = weak

You can get 5 to 6 attacks out of him at best. You can hit at best hit 90% of the time. You only wound 50% of the time regardless of what you do. Against most HQ units 4+ to 5+ Invulns after its all said and done you will get 1-2 wounds. Thats not enough to kill most character / HQ units now a days.

With my GM I can use Scourging on you to deny you your 2+ Invul and kill you before we even get into HtH. In HtH all I need to do is cause 1 wound on you and it will kill you outright without even using my force weapons abilities. Chaos have a their daemon weapons which can overwhelm your shadow shields or kill you outright as well.

Old days.. Yeah Archon was the shiznit.. Nowadays.. not so much.. hes just another HQ just like my GM. In all honesty.. if your not a Nightbringer, Abaddon, Mephiston, or some other named character your nothing special.. (heck even most named characters arent special anymore).


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

Pheonix Lords are pretty good


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

Yes the striking scorpion one can get up to 7 or 8 attacks at strength 8 power weapon


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## Shadowfane (Oct 17, 2007)

Bishop120 said:


> Dark Eldar archon = weak
> 
> You can get 5 to 6 attacks out of him at best. You can hit at best hit 90% of the time. You only wound 50% of the time regardless of what you do. Against most HQ units 4+ to 5+ Invulns after its all said and done you will get 1-2 wounds. Thats not enough to kill most character / HQ units now a days.
> 
> ...


Now, your problem there is you're adding ranged stuff into it, whereas I was just talking about the original question, which was the best CC HQ unit - so if you're going to talk about Scourging, I'll just talk about blasters in the retinue....


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

Shadowfane said:


> Now, your problem there is you're adding ranged stuff into it, whereas I was just talking about the original question, which was the best CC HQ unit - so if you're going to talk about Scourging, I'll just talk about blasters in the retinue....


But I wasnt talking about my retinue... I was just talking bout my GM HQ guy. :grin: 

I was probably wrong for bringing his shooting in but I just get tired of hearing about the almighty 2+ Inv as making a character unbeatable.. because it doesnt. Its not even close. I was just posting in that paragraph all the things that easily defeat him and his save.


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## CATzeentch (Dec 25, 2007)

In the new daemons, easily *Skarbrand the exiled one* as he has 
WS 10
BS? 3
S 8
T 6
W 5
I 5
A 6
LD 10
SV 3+/4+

And he has furious charge and a bunch more awseome abilities like EVERYONE re-rolling failed rolls to hit in close combat and he has winds of chaos, Strength 5 doombolt and a 2+ invulnerable save aginst all psychic powers and force weapons. And he has fleet but no wings...and 300 points.

And in general Daemon HQ units DOMINATE in CC, and you could have a total of 4 in an army...

And Skulltaker...the guy that rends on a 4+ and causes instant death...


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## leinad-yor (Apr 14, 2008)

Capt. Shrike + Shrike's Wing + attached Chaplain with jump pack = 36 str4 I5 power weapon attacks on the charge with reroll to hit and to wound. Like it or not that has to hurt. I can't wait till I get those power claws to finish building this squad.:biggrin:


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## Hivemind Demeter (Nov 6, 2007)

Broodlord all the way. :3

(And I LOVE Tau command suits. So versatile.)


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

CATzeentch said:


> In the new daemons, easily *Skarbrand the exiled one* as he has
> WS 10
> BS? 3
> S 8
> ...


Instant Death rending attacks?!!! thats pretty fuckin sweet man!!!


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## Shadowfane (Oct 17, 2007)

Bishop120 said:


> But I wasnt talking about my retinue... I was just talking bout my GM HQ guy. :grin:
> 
> I was probably wrong for bringing his shooting in but I just get tired of hearing about the almighty 2+ Inv as making a character unbeatable.. because it doesnt. Its not even close. I was just posting in that paragraph all the things that easily defeat him and his save.


Nah, the 2+ inv save isn't unbeatable, far from it - mainly because its parked on a T3 eldar, and there's a worrying tendancy nowadays for high-strength characters in army lists, so 1 failed save = dead character!

I generally base my observations on stats, and past experiences - against your average marine-strength character, an archon with standard loadout can do 2 unsaved wounds a turn - that character usually inflicts 2 wounds back for the shadow field to save - generally that means as long as the Archon kills the character in two rounds of combat, he has a good chance of not failing a 2+ save, which given he generally strikes first, isn't unreasonable to expect, as long as your dice rolls don't suck 
But then, basing things on stats rather then just personal preference seems to be an unusual thing in GW games where I live


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## Ario Barzano (Jan 18, 2008)

Well i know they aren't really the best at CC but i do have to say that Grey Knight terminators are my favourite they can plough through almost any model in close combat and normal will only take one or two causalities.


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## CommissarHorn (Apr 14, 2008)

For guard I always have
1 Senior Heroic Officer (powerfist, Power weapon, carpace, refractor field, medallion crimson ,boltpistol,)
126pts

1 Commissar (powerfist, Power sword, carpace, refractor field, medallion crimson, boltpistol)
101pts

1 Guardsmen (Flamer)
6pts

1 Veteran (CC weapon and laspistol,)
6pts

1 Veteran Medic. (syringe thing, counts as a CC weapon, i think, bionics)
11pts

1 Guardsmen (CC weapon and laspistol)
-pts

Actually thats pretty crap.
I coulda done better. But for some reason thats the exact same guys I had when I toppled a bio titan and half a dozen Abbaddons Terminator bodyguards.
Although I had a demo pack somewhere.


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

hes still only Initiative 5, my rune priests storm caller will sort that out


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

problem with Wolves is they have one Psychic power and thats all


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## traceman923 (Apr 14, 2008)

Chaos hands down Abaddon and Kharn do i need to say more


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

Gore Hunter said:


> problem with Wolves is they have one Psychic power and thats all


its a kick ass pyschic power too though,

come on daemon charge me and my retinue in this storm, i hit on 3s always muharhar

36 power claw attacks hitting on 3s reroll to wound
then my rune priests 5/6 attacks strength 5 weapon 

unless that daemon is really cheap


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

I still take the initiative If I can strike first I will make sure I do it with so many Power weapons that your guys will be in a worse state than Guilliman and The Emperor combined you'll be dead.


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## Spawn Of Dorn (Apr 16, 2008)

I have to say with my experience of seeing them played Chaos has to win I've seen em take out huge units with that blood axe thingy.


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

That is just a combat weapon Know


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## Spawn Of Dorn (Apr 16, 2008)

Its a Combat weapon that adds +2D6 attacks aswell as being a power weapon. And you don't see many hq's fielded for firepower they are generally to expensive and you might as well fork out for devastator's.


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

I thought that when you said blood axe thingy you ment chain axes sorry. What about force weapons: dead HQ


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## Absolute035 (Jan 13, 2008)

Mad King George said:


> its a kick ass pyschic power too though,
> 
> come on daemon charge me and my retinue in this storm, i hit on 3s always muharhar
> 
> ...


36 power claw attacks that hit on 3 and reroll wounds, what are you talking about

my friend runs a rune priest with a pack of blood claws... they have WS3 and 2 attacks each with normal weapons, although in a big squad you can give them 3 powerfists giving them (Surprise) 6 powerfist attacks when charged that hit on 4s with no rerolls.


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## Usaal (Apr 9, 2008)

I have always been partial to the Brood lord, feeder tendrels or Acid Maw and its a good time, stick him with his Stealers (those that survive the run to the target). 
or the Dakka Tyrant with 12 shots reroll hits and misses  Wings, 2x Devourers, Toxin Sacs.


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

The Problem with Brood Lord GS Retinue is they attract light Firepower like flee's to a rat generally they don't survive.


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

Absolute035 said:


> 36 power claw attacks that hit on 3 and reroll wounds, what are you talking about
> 
> my friend runs a rune priest with a pack of blood claws... they have WS3 and 2 attacks each with normal weapons, although in a big squad you can give them 3 powerfists giving them (Surprise) 6 powerfist attacks when charged that hit on 4s with no rerolls.


im talking about wolf guard body guard with power claws and wolf tooth necklaces

Necklaces = always hit on 3s vs ws
power claws = reroll to wound
you can have 9 body guards at 4 attacks each = 36
with a rune priest with storm caller i get Initiative 10 and 32+ attacks

i wasn't talking about blood claws


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## Spawn Of Dorn (Apr 16, 2008)

grimaldus FTW!!! hE KICKS ASS man!!!!


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

Mad King George said:


> im talking about wolf guard body guard with power claws and wolf tooth necklaces
> 
> Necklaces = always hit on 3s vs ws
> power claws = reroll to wound
> ...


You mean Lightning Claws not Power Klaws... BIIIIG difference there. k:


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## Absolute035 (Jan 13, 2008)

Mad King George said:


> im talking about wolf guard body guard with power claws and wolf tooth necklaces
> 
> Necklaces = always hit on 3s vs ws
> power claws = reroll to wound
> ...


Ah, pair of lightning claws on the wolf guard... and i didn't realize you were talking about a ten man squad that's 600 points.


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

Absolute035 said:


> Ah, pair of lightning claws on the wolf guard... and i didn't realize you were talking about a ten man squad that's 600 points.


yeah it still kicks ass though , ;D give them terminator armor and a wolf priest and bingo + charms


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

I'm going to say some of the new Daemons, they are truely insane. 

Skulltaker is nasty. A Rending & Instand Death inflicting attack on a 4+ is quite insane. But he only has 2 wounds so needs backup on his own. Although a squad of Hellblade weilding Bloodletters with him ain't so bad... or Juggernauts. 

Honestly I keep having to go back to the greater deamon of Slannesh. The stat line, coupled with Fleet on that MC makes her/him/it a real beast. No matter what, it will always go at the same time if not faster then you in H2H in every given situation out there. Or the Masque with a squad of Daemonettes... pretty good amount of hurt right there. 

But one can't overlook the Plague Bearer. Something that wounds on a 2+ while ignores saves is pretty fricking harsh. With a Thoughness that high, far too many wounds and Inv save with FnP... if you don't finish this thing off it will roast you. Adding in the Book of Plagues bonus... ouch.

HQ CC Units around, the Daemon codex trumps all others on just about every level. I don't think any single unit would compare, but I'll have to math-hammer some things out. Squads however, that's a different story, some armies have some pretty beefy retinues with Lords.


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## CallumM27 (Mar 20, 2008)

Grey Knight Grand Master with a retinue of 9 termies on a charge= 27 S6 power weapons attacks and 5 S6 FW attacks all with a WS of 5 :shok: super cool


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

I've only seen rules for the Fantasy Daemons but they already look kick ass 
Is that Greater Daemon Character in 40k too?


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## Gore Hunter (Nov 5, 2007)

Also Skull Taker Looks Kick ass


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