# A Chaptor for each country???



## subtlejoe (Sep 23, 2008)

After reading another post about the different legions coming from Terra, I was wondering if they came from different parts of the globe itself. As with the different guard regiments each based loosely on the different nationality (Mordians - German / Cadian's - Americans) So would the original space wolves have been directly taken from Scotland?


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## Arbite (Jan 1, 2010)

subtlejoe said:


> So would the original space wolves have been directly taken from Scotland?


Scandinavia was were the vikings originated from, Sweden, Denmark and Finland.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I think it was more of a case of the Legion's numbers just being filled by willing members of the populace- remember other than the genetic template they're based on the legion's would have been extremely similar in their make-up when first founded, the Space Wolves wouldn't have been Viking-esque for example nor The First Legion (the Dark Angels) Warrior-Monks.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

White Scars always remind me of the Mongolian's Genghis Khan led, not to mention the obvious parallels of Jaghatai Khan and Genghis Khan in name and (probable) appearance.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> I think it was more of a case of the Legion's numbers just being filled by willing members of the populace- remember other than the genetic template they're based on the legion's would have been extremely similar in their make-up when first founded, the Space Wolves wouldn't have been Viking-esque for example nor The First Legion (the Dark Angels) Warrior-Monks.


Whilst that is true, in some cases though there would have been major variations considering they were all implanted with differing Geneseed. The major example of this being, the psychic development of the Thousand Sons (eventually leading to the 'Flesh-Change').

And any other examples where mutations in the Geneseed was present and non-dependent on the Primarch's homeworld.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

As I said *other than their genetic template* the recruitment and consistency of each Legion would have been very similar when founded.
Depending on which Primach's genes were used it would have altered the character of the Legion but probably not how or how many people they recruited- it's doubtful that even such genetic differences would have been a major reason for certain alignments to cultures similar to what the Primarchs were embroiled in (i.e just because the Space Wolves had various genetic mutations wouldn't mean they took upon themselves a nomadic barbarian aspect until they found Russ).

The White Scars didn't become such until they found Jaghatai Khan and adopted his ways, for all we know they didn't have any predilection for maneuverability until the Khan restructured the Legion that way.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> As I said *other than their genetic template*


My bad, missed that bit. :grin:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

NiceGuyEddy said:


> White Scars always remind me of the Mongolian's Genghis Khan led, not to mention the obvious parallels of Jaghatai Khan and Genghis Khan in name and (probable) appearance.


Chagatai was the name of Chinggis' first child.

At the moment:

Dark Angels: Teutonic Knightly Order
Ultramarines: Roman Legions
Space Wolves: Vikings
White Scars: Mongols

This leaves Salamanders, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Blood Angels, and Imperial Fists, which in order, are the typical classes you can find in a typical RPG: Pyro/Weaponsmith, Scout, Terminator, Vampire, and Siege.

Very predictable.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The DA seem to be more like templars to me tbh.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Some Legions neatly conform to historical places, people, individuals, and organizations. Others don't.

Where the Teutonic knights are concerned, the Black Templars are the Chapter you're looking for--they even have the same colours/emblems as them.

The Ultramarines are as Classical Greek as they are Roman. The White Scars are as Mongolic as one gets. Past those guys, the Legions are more amalgamations of different concepts rather than adaptations of a single theme.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> The DA seem to be more like templars to me tbh.


Guess you'll have to trust me on this. Teutonic Robes, Polish Hussaria Back Banners, and also the winged helmets - 










The Lion Helmet is obviously the best example of this.

I've been a researcher while I worked on a Baltic Total War Modification, and I know a fair bit about them .

Along with Caliban being heavily wooded like the area around Lithuania and south western Russia.

The Teutonic Knights shared the same colours as those of the Hospitallers, while the coat of arms are the same as the Order of St John. The Teutonic Knights have a different scheme and ethos. I'd take a guess and say Games Workshop didn't do the research and chose the atypical design for the colours of St John, rather than the red, black and white which came from the closest source of information.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I was talking about their fluff rather than their appearance. I have studied the different knightly orders before and they feel more like Templars.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

In what way are they more like Templars, and not Teutons?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Hording of secrets..... that sort of thing.


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## space cowboy (Apr 3, 2009)

I would just like to point out, in response to the original post, that the Cadians are less American than the Catachans are. The Catachan guardsmen are obviously Vietnam-era American military while I have no idea where the Cadian look comes from, as it is not terribly American specific, and more of a generic look to me.

Also, to be more on topic, Thousand Sons are very Egyptian in look and feel.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

As have been pointed out its not just space marine legions but Imp guard regiments that have been stolen from history. The Valhallens look like WW2 Russians, Preatorians Imperial age British colonialists, Desert guys laurence of arabia style, DKoK WW1 germans the list goes on and on. 

This is just due to stereotypes and GW trying to appeal to the largest possible target audience.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

for guard looks wise its easy really
Mordians, classic cadians, catachans - americans of various forms
Valhallans - russians
Tallarn - almost any desert based force really
Praetorians - British
Cadians - Canada
Steel legion - WWII germans
Death Korp - WWI/WWII French and German mixture

for marines its a little harder to see, but some are pretty obvious
Ultramarines - greeks/romans
Black templars - knights hospitaller/tuetonics
Wolves - Vikings
Scars - Genghis Khan
Dark angels - most likely a little bit of a mixture
Blood angels - twilight fanbois


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

gen.ahab said:


> Hording of secrets..... that sort of thing.


Okay - Let's just look at the information we have available:

Caliban itself, cut off from Terra by Warp Storms - pagan Lithuania itself was cut off from Humanity through the problems that arose during the Orthodox occupation by Novgorod, Kyiv and Christian Poland. The wars around this time were merely wars against Pagan's, simply for their beliefs, but after suffering several defeats at the hands of the pagans (particularly those following Dieva and Giltine, foremost among a pantheon of *4*), the land was cut off from Christianity.

Nobles of Caliban were taught to live by the sword - a reference to the Boyars and Druzhina, and major preference to mounted combat - again, Lithuania. The only Catholic land following such a tradition were the Franks of the South and West. The land of Caliban is "twisted forests" which is the same land types as where the victories of the pagans over the Polish were ambushed, and hence defeated, where their lances didn't have the movement to counter.

Lion El Johnson was found by a group called "The Order". The Only order in a locale of such a period was that of the Teutons, a Germanic founded order taking in "crusaders" from all over Europe to slay the Heathen pagans. Replace Christianity with the Order, and Pagans with the Deadly beasts of the forests. 

Merit and Skill at arms was the only way to advance in the order, while the Crusader states freely allowed blood in the way of virtue (Geoffroi, for example, was passed over for leadership, when Reynault de Chat de Lyon/Chatillon's cousin was available, despite the guy being a poulain and total nobjockey). Anyone could join this order, as they could with the Teutons. There, they recieved training as Men at arms or Livonian Auxiliaries such as the Brothers of the Sword, where feat at arms could eventually allow them to join the ranks of the Halbruders, (halfbrothers). If they earned their way in battle, they would join as a Ritterbruder, whereas the "noble templars" were just that. Nobles.

Unknown to the Order, the Emperor was launching a crusade - unknown to the Teutons, the English were on a Crusade, as well, along with the Poles under who would become Wradyslaw the second, where they took the town of Hrodna, and more importantly, Marienburg which then became the headquarters of the Teutons. Indeed, the Estonians and Lithuanians knew them simply as "The Order".

The teutonic order failed because the alliance between the Order and their polish allies went into stress because of raids commited by the more zealous members of the order attacking their catholic cousins due to their lack of "piety", and then the border regions of the Order's control attacked the order, causing the 13 years war. 

IIRC, the same thing happened between Luther and Lion El Johnson. Luther believed that the Dark Angels were tainted by Chaos after hearing of their inaction, so fired on them in orbit, Johnson believe Luther tainted by Chaos, and so ripped the chapter apart. Only the fortress monastery survived, and is now floating as "The Rock". To buy off the 13 years war, the Order sold Marienburg, and changed the Order HQ to Konigsberg. 

The Inner Circle of the Teutons consisted of 7 members. There are 7 chapters - Angels of Absolution, Angels of Damnation, Angels of Penance, Angels of Purgatory, Angels of Redemption, Angels of Repetance, and Angels of Vengeance.

There are three main parts to the Dark Angels - Deathwing, Ravenwing and the standard battlecompanies.

The Deathwing is formed from the Veterans, the strongest and the greatest - in the Teutons, this was Ritterbruder. Every Dark Angel aspires to Deathwing, Every Order Spearmen, Burgher/Landsknecht Pikeman, or Halbruder aspires to become a Ritterbruder. It is they who fought in the hardest parts of the battles, and they who suffer the heaviest casualties.

The Ravenwing is formed from those strongest to resist the "lies and falsehoods" of the enemy - in history, the traitors to the Pagan cause, and became Christians were used as scouts light cavalry to hunt down lone bands of pagans. It was these who commited the greatest atrocities to the Pagan populace.

The battle at Kadillus harbour - reminiscent of their patrols and role as habour masters at Acre. It was said that the head of the Teutons at Acre met with Salah ad-Din here. Despite the attack of boats bypassing the walls of Acre, and it was here that the Teutons held the harbour against these Greenskin monsters. Is it a coincidence that the Muslims of the time were seen to primarily wear Green to denote they were Jihadi (and still do), while Kadillus Harbour was attacked by Orks? Was it a coincidence that Piscina IVwas then overrun later by Orks, as Acre and Jerusalem later was by Ghazgkull, sorry, Salah dh-Din?

The Lion and the Wolf have major disagreements - is it any coincidence that the Teutons refused help from the Swedes, the Norse, and the Danes, unless they were members of the order? Is it coincidence that the Canute/Knud insulted the Inner Circle for their actions?

Sorry, but EVERYTHING points towards the Dark Angels being Teutons.

Keeping of secrets, every order kept secrets. The Teutons secrets was allowing a Holy Crusade to become a land grab for those in power.

The only secrets the Templar had was that of it's initiation, which the King of France (who was currently in debt, following a defeat which he had paid for Templar assistance), decided to take advantage of and torture into false confessions. These confessions caused the Pope to disband the order incase any more slander came his way, where he stated that the lies should be "assayed like gold in the furnace". If the truth does not appear in the flames, then they shall die, basically. Which is what happened - there's no such thing as words in the flame.

A secret initiation is not enough to base a chapter on, as fuck me, there's over a 1000 of the bastards.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

As that was a bit of an epic post, for the IG legions, the Vostroyan "Firstborn" I think is based on Stalingrad - Volgograd is the new name for the city, and Firstborn refers to the term that during the Great Patriotic War (Eastern Front to you and me), the Russians took every able bodied man of 18+ and put them to the front line. If you had more than one son capable of that, then only the first one was taken, until it was the next round of conscription (to prevent the pals battalion incidents during the First World War, where entire streets lost their male population in a single day, due to the horrors of the trenches).

The Tallarn, with their new number of Fast vehicles from Forge World are favouring the SAS, and the LRDP more and more. Of course, the Terrorist will usually be applied to them, due to the shemagh and long desert coat that they all have.

But of course, that's just for simple minded retards.


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

*Looks upwards at Vaz's post in awe and amazement, nudges gen.ahab*, i think you have been duly served mate

Always seen the imperial fists as the sort of 300 spartants myself. Very little similarity, except for the stoic stand against the advancing hordes, the battle for the imperial palace, but the analogy is easily destroyed

An yes thousand sons have been given the egyptian look so that can be added to the list


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## ajchafe (Aug 13, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> Cadians - Canada


Yes :so_happy: very good. I like this idea very much, maybe I will make a sweet Cadian force with a nice red maple leaf on them.

That being said, I feel that they are more British than American. No one ever seems to considers that modern British soldiers and American soldiers are pretty similar in appearance really (at least in my experience on various forums). And since GW is from the UK, I would imagine that's where the modern Cadian look comes from.

Anyway, I officially claim the Cadians as spiritual decedents of Canadian soldiers.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

deathbringer said:


> *Looks upwards at Vaz's post in awe and amazement, nudges gen.ahab*, i think you have been duly served mate


 it was more of a historical ass whoopin tbh. Lol I never dreamed of putting that much thought into it man but nice Vaz. Opinion has been changed. Lol besides...... I always did like the Teutons more. Lol


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Dark Angels do seem Teutonic but I think the influence on Lionel Johnson can't be underestimated in how they act. That kind of dark poetry of not only The Dark Angel but poems like The Age of Dream and The Precept of Silence. They kind of evoke the style and attitudes of the Dark Angel chapter to me. 

Aramoro


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## FORTHELION (Nov 21, 2009)

Seems that im irish ill throw this out, do any you guys think that any of the legions were based on the Celts. Irish, Scottish, Welsh


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

*gen.ahab*, Don't worry about it. I'm a pompous ass when it comes to history, and you know the old saying about when people are wrong on the internet, haha.

*FORTHELION*, at the minute, there are no Legions I can remember being influenced by the Scottish. However, there is a Golden Daemon winner over on Dakka Dakka who created the Ravenborn chapter. 

It's one of the nicest painted armies I've seen to date.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

I remember seeing some of them back when WD was good, didn't think I'd ever see them again


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> I remember seeing some of them back when WD was good, didn't think I'd ever see them again


Yup. I always remember them as being from the first one I'd ever bought. I always remember the Tyranid Biobeast showcase as well (this was before Forge World even had Trygons). 

http://demonwinner.free.fr/usa/2001/golden_demon_winner.php?categorie=4


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Vaz said:


> ... pagan Lithuania itself was cut off from Humanity through the problems that arose during the Orthodox occupation by Novgorod, Kyiv and Christian Poland. The wars around this time were merely wars against Pagan's, simply for their beliefs, but after suffering several defeats at the hands of the pagans (particularly those following Dieva and Giltine, foremost among a pantheon of *4*), the land was cut off from Christianity.


The Teutonic Knights fought in the locations you mentioned as part of Crusades and with a self-stated agenda of taking out heretics and pagans.

Now, look at the correlaries with the Black Templars. Their entire motif is based on a perpetual Crusade; their signature as Space Marines is their hatred of the Witch. Much as the Teutonic Knights established fortresses and colonies throughout Prussia, the Black Templars establish Chapter Keeps where they go.

By contrast, the theme for the Dark Angels is the seeking and redemption of their own fallen brethren. This doesn't match up with the Teutonic Knights at all.



> Nobles of Caliban were taught to live by the sword - a reference to the Boyars and Druzhina, and major preference to mounted combat - again, Lithuania.


This is hardly a distinction where monastic knightly orders are concerned.



> The land of Caliban is "twisted forests" which is the same land types as where the victories of the pagans over the Polish were ambushed, and hence defeated, where their lances didn't have the movement to counter.


In fact, the Teutonic Knights first made their bones in the Holy Lands and then in Prussia, as part of a Crusade. This pre-empts the Caliban-Poland/Lithuania geographical reference, and more aptly fits the motif of the Crusading Black Templars.



> Lion El Johnson was found by a group called "The Order".


The term "Order" applies equally to any number of knightly orders. See, for example, the Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of St. John of Jerusalem of Rhodes and of Malta, more popularly known among their contemporaries as *the Order* of St. John; or the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon, more popularly known among their contemporaries as *the Order* of the Temple.



> Unknown to the Order, the Emperor was launching a crusade - unknown to the Teutons, the English were on a Crusade, ...


What Crusade were the English on exactly during this time?



> The teutonic order failed because the alliance between the Order and their polish allies went into stress because of raids commited by the more zealous members of the order attacking their catholic cousins due to their lack of "piety", and then the border regions of the Order's control attacked the order, causing the 13 years war.
> 
> IIRC, the same thing happened between Luther and Lion El Johnson.


Nope. Luther claimed that the Emperor and the Lion had betrayed Caliban and left it to be destroyed by monsters.

Interestingly, while the position of the Fallen closely correlates with how surviving Knights Templar (assuming they were guilty as charged) might view _their_ religious superiors, that's not very tenable with the Teutonic Knights.



> The Inner Circle of the Teutons consisted of 7 members. There are 7 chapters - Angels of Absolution, Angels of Damnation, Angels of Penance, Angels of Purgatory, Angels of Redemption, Angels of Repetance, and Angels of Vengeance.


Neither the Angels of Penance, the Angels of Repentance, the Angels of Damnation, or the Angels of Purgatory are associated in any way with the Dark Angels. They are Chapters by name only. Either way, the Dark Angels _Chapter_ would have been an integral part of their association, making eight members. When you add the Consecrators and the Disciples of Caliban, who are *known* members of said order, you would have had a total of ten. If you just use the Dark Angels, their three Successors (Absolution, Redemption, Vengeance), the Consecrators and the Disciples of Caliban, it's just six. It doesn't fit, I'm afraid. 



> Sorry, but EVERYTHING points towards the Dark Angels being Teutons.


You offer interesting comparisons, but ultimately I can't shake the fact that the differences simply exceed the similarities.

The Dark Angels largely use Judeo-Christian "Angelic" or "Demonic" names as part of their theme. The Black Templars, on the other hand, primarily use Germanic names. Advantage: Black Templars.

Black Templars and the Teutonic Knights have _identical colors._ Same color of robes, same color of cross, etc. By contrast, the Dark Angels merely wear robes--not even white ones, and without _any cross_.

The Black Templars are _literally_on a perpetual Crusade, which mimicks the Teutons' own status. The Dark Angels by contrast embark on a Crusade only whilst the Emperor is alive.

Neither the Teutonic Knights nor the Black Templars were defined by secrecy and the terrible allegations levelled against them. By contrast, the entire impetus of pop culture today focuses on the "mysteries" of the Templars, of the sins they allegedly committed and tried to hide. There was absolutely no secret in what the Teutons sought to do. They conquered--and held--lands with charters from the authorities they held as lawful, and embarked on Crusades with the blessing of their religious superiors.

And, again: the Black Templars and the Teutonic Knights _look practically identical._ :grin:


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## warsmith7752 (Sep 12, 2009)

Am i the only one who thinks salamanders seem a bit african. Blood angels are italian/venician in my opinion.


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## Bolshavic (Dec 8, 2008)

If there is a chapter for each country where is the Australians? for I have yet to see any chapter/IG that follows the creed of the Australian ideals or that of the Kiwis.
Unless you count penal legion for IG as Australians a dig at our heritage as a penal colony Or maybe the ANZACs are the orks a bunch of larkins and fun lovers, and very similar in orks can win, much like the southern hemisphere wins cricket and both rugby codes :laugh:


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Phoebus said:


> The Teutonic Knights fought in the locations you mentioned as part of Crusades and with a self-stated agenda of taking out heretics and pagans.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## shas'o Thraka (Jan 4, 2010)

If i'm honest, I think the Cadians are soooo British, the only different is the Fluff. In England we would have to fill out 50000000000000000 Health and Frikkin safety forms be4 we could consider sending them to their doom, then we wouldn't because It would somehow be racist.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Vaz said:


> Phoebus said:
> 
> 
> > Please don't tell me that you consider the CoA to be exactly the same.
> ...


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## LiamDawson27 (Apr 25, 2010)

This discussion has become a great crusade of it's own. I'm going to agree with phoebus. The Tuetons were germanic, and the templars definately seem more germanic.


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## vulcan539 (May 17, 2010)

Bolshavic said:


> If there is a chapter for each country where is the Australians? for I have yet to see any chapter/IG that follows the creed of the Australian ideals or that of the Kiwis.
> Unless you count penal legion for IG as Australians a dig at our heritage as a penal colony Or maybe the ANZACs are the orks a bunch of larkins and fun lovers, and very similar in orks can win, much like the southern hemisphere wins cricket and both rugby codes :laugh:


I dont agree with the ork comparisne, but i did have a laugh at the penal Legion comment:grin: Prehaps thou the First and Only or the Tarllen Desert Raiders. Even then its a slight strech to say that they are based on the ANZAC's as a hole, maybe the SAS thou?


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## lawrence96 (Sep 1, 2008)

Just looked on lexicanum (so take with pinch of salt) and we have the following races regiments:

Drookian Fen Guard- Scotland








Source: GW Spain

Finreht Highlanders- Scotland








Source:GW Spain, The Thirteenth Black Crusade

and there's plenty more, but i don't have time to trawl through them and list them


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

anybody think that the Iron Hands are like american but with a japenese kind of twist?, with the whole interest in technology :biggrin:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

How are they like us? Lol tbh the Luna wolves seemed more like US marines.... Or atleast that is what I am told.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

The Canadian chapter would be called "The Mountines", notorious for riding adamantium armored mousses into battle.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Yeah of all Western modern militaries I'd certainly support that Luna Wolves as being the most like the Americans- you've both got a reputation for being bombastic and gung-ho


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

That's because we kickass and we know it. Lol


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

no im not saying that Iron Hands represent America, its just that by race/look they look western/american  , now that i think about it most legions look western/american by race


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