# Why Ultramarines?



## NetherMessenger (Aug 6, 2011)

Why does most of 40k fandom seem to share the thought that the ultramarines are the blandest of the chapters?

Aren't they the only ones who created a stable and prosperous empire around their system of operations? Aren't they the only chapter with roman inspired heraldry and armour features?

I'd say there's many chapters out there blander than the ultramarines.
Now, the fact that their the poster boy for GW and get alot of attention game and fluff wise I'd say isn't so good.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Coz they're blue. And awesome.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

The majority of the current codex is Papa Smurf fapping to his past deeds while his fluffer team of Captains cheer him on. The book could have been much more SM generic but instead it is a long UM wankfest with some small sideblurbs about other chapters.


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## NetherMessenger (Aug 6, 2011)

scscofield said:


> The majority of the current codex is Papa Smurf fapping to his past deeds while his fluffer team of Captains cheer him on. The book could have been much more SM generic but instead it is a long UM wankfest with some small sideblurbs about other chapters.


Yeah but that's new fluff sillyness. I mean come on no legion or chapter not descendant from the Ultramarines want to be like the ultramarines like they said. pfft.

But didn't people call the ultramarines bland, ultramsurfs and such before that already?


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

Dear OP,

I read your topic with interest and an open mind. Your opening sentiments captured my attention and swayed my mind to your cause.

Then I read this:



scscofield said:


> The majority of the current codex is Papa Smurf fapping to his past deeds while his fluffer team of Captains cheer him on. The book could have been much more SM generic but instead it is a long UM wankfest with some small sideblurbs about other chapters.


Owned.


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## NetherMessenger (Aug 6, 2011)

Digg40k said:


> Dear OP,
> 
> I read your topic with interest and an open mind. Your opening sentiments captured my attention and swayed my mind to your cause.
> 
> ...


I think I get it now. People don't like them because they always win. They're standard action hero types. Is that it? Because I kinda like the whole roman empire thing they got going on.


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

NetherMessenger said:


> I think I get it now. People don't like them because they always win. They're standard action hero types. Is that it? Because I kinda like the whole roman empire thing they got going on.


Yeh you pretty much hit the nail on the head there. They're like the one popular lad at school who you hate even if he's really nice and sincere.

I will agree with you on the roman empire feel, that is pretty good. If you love that so much and you don't want to be labelled a blue fanboy then why not make your own chapter up?


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

The Smurfs suck because despite being paraded around as the best of the best, that claim falls apart real quick when you realize they haven't actually done squat in comparison to the dozen or so other chapters rolling around. They're full of hot air and have nothing to show other than a few special snowflakes characters pumped full of Derp by Matt Ward.

Now. For the claim there are many chapters blander than the Ultrasmurfs. 


There are ongoing reasons that every other chapter of both Loyalist and Traitor legion are better than the Ultramarines. Here are but a few:

They did not fight against the traitor legions on the walls of the Imperial Palace, fighting with all they had to defend Terra against horrors the likes of which had never been seen before in the history of the Imperium.

That award goes to the Imperial Fists. 

They did not wind up taking a heavily-defended city that had dug in with fifty marines after it had 2 weeks to prepare its defenses because taking it the quick way with hundreds of casualties "would have been too easy."

That award goes to the Alpha Legion. 

They didn't manage to troll an entire marine chapter (complete with primarch) by having them assault a heavily fortified fortress, and then ambushing them in said fortress after it was but a trap that left the chapter reeling in casualties.

That award goes to the Iron Warriors. 

They are not badass marines that burn the shit out of foul xenos with flamer and melta weapons even after shreds of their chapter went traitor.

That award goes to the Salamanders. 

They did not achieve this feat while remaining fundamentally decent human beings in a universe that pisses grimdark.

That award also goes to the Salamanders. 

They were not almost completely destroyed by random chance before rallying their few remaining brothers and defending a city from an Ork waagh! with virtually no reinforcements while avoiding stupidly suicidal moves to someday rebuild their shattered chapter (a feat which most thought would be impossible).

That award goes to the Crimson Fists. 

They were not the Chapter who allied themselves with the Necrons to repel a Tyranid Invasion fleet.

That award goes to the Blood Angels.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

The problem is they are as you said GW's posterchild. Many of the other chapters have some sort of flaw that makes them interesting, the UM just radiate smug perfectness. It is the same hatred that many have for Superman. Us puny humans relate to flawed stories better than perfection, its what Marvel made their money off of.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> The Smurfs suck because despite being paraded around as the best of the best, that claim falls apart real quick when you realize they haven't actually done squat in comparison to the dozen or so other chapters rolling around. They're full of hot air and have nothing to show other than a few special snowflakes characters pumped full of Derp by Matt Ward.


2nd War for Armageddon, 1st & 2nd Tyranid Wars...we really could go on.

I think a lot of the people who make up their own DIY backgrounds dislike the Ultramarines because they want their own creations to be the best Space Marine Chapters around (how many homebrew chapters are written as if they're the very essence of awesome? Far too many), with the UM officially being the most influential that, shitty, plan of theirs is rendered even more retarded.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

With me it is less that I want my own chapter to be better and more I wished the codex had been more widespread in it's 'fluff'. I think it would have been much cooler if all those various UM characters had instead been parts of various other chapters with a bit of story behind each of them. The majority of the 'special' characters for the vanilla SM are UM, I would have rather had say Papa Smurf and one other deep story captain. Then repeat this for say 10 of the more 'respected' chapters. We call the codex vanilla marines but the codex more of a UM codex than a general SM codex.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

I can summerise most of their battles....
Group of ______
Open Book.
Book says stand and shoot.
Captain orders them to stand and shoot
Still alot of em.
Stand and shoot some more
More of em and alot closer
Send in assault marines
AMs die
Stand and shoot some more.
_____ is now hitting you
Draw sword
Put pointy in into enemy
wait for enemy to die
pull out pointy end
put pointy in into enemy
profit.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

NetherMessenger said:


> Why does most of 40k fandom seem to share the thought that the ultramarines are the blandest of the chapters?


Dude, its called blind hatred.


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> They were not the Chapter who allied themselves with the Necrons to repel a Tyranid Invasion fleet.
> 
> That award goes to the Blood Angels.


More information on *that* please!


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Digg40k said:


> More information on *that* please!


You mean, this?


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

Doelago said:


> You mean, this?


:laugh: Love it. The back story would be great though.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The Blood Angels were fighting a force of Necrons when a large fleet of Tyranids attacked- the BA and 'Crons stopped fighting each other and both turned on the Nids. After the battle was won neither the Necrons or Blood Angels were in any condition to resume the fight so they both backed off and went their seperate ways.


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## whiplash308 (Jan 14, 2009)

Digg40k said:


> Dear OP,
> 
> I read your topic with interest and an open mind. Your opening sentiments captured my attention and swayed my mind to your cause.
> 
> ...


Exactly. And here's the simple version of not liking the Ultrasmurfs for those that like seeing color and not black writing on fluff pages: Smurf colored armor with a _tiny_ little shoulder pad trim depicting what company they're from? Yeah I agree, bland and *lame.*


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I don't think that the UM are bland at all. Rather I believe they pick up most of the fluff because they are a the poster boys of GW.

Even if any other chapter swapped places with the Ultramarines they would receive the same flak. I fully believe that in a given example lets say the Salamanders were the same as they are but are the GW posterboys. They would be hated and people would moan they are just green guys who like to burn stuff. Meanwhile the UM would be more appealing.

My own qualms with any marine fluff is that it goes like this:

1. Marines encounter resistance.

2. They land and start to make some progress.

3. The enemy rallies and retaliates.

4. What happens next is a ground breaking fight that is a galactic slugfest where a few noble marines hold out against hordes of foul gribbly enemies. To compound matters worse an important hero is either killed or incapacitated for some reason.

5. Eventually the marines triumph and they then leave.

Does anyone else want to see a story where instead the marines come down and totally kick the crap out of some enemies before moving on, or even losing. Surely I am not the only one who sees the pattern here.


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## comrade (Jun 30, 2008)

I hate them because every damn other army I play is ultramarines. and the other army is space marines in a different color.

I have to intentionally go onto my FLGS forum and announce I would like a game of "not spacemarine" to get an interesting game.

I'm bored with seeing:
every army has a AV14 brick
this drop pods, so so does this, and this, but this drop pod is a whirlwind launcher.
I have a 3+ armor save.. everywhere.
I hit on a 3+ to.
look.... rhinos...ohhh
I have captain so and so. he makes my army all terminators or some other bs.


I'm going to stop now.

its not a hate for ultramarines per se , but mainly a dislike of spacemarines. and that effects my fluff view on them also.


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## whiplash308 (Jan 14, 2009)

Well even if the Salamanders were the poster boys of GW, I'd prefer them over Ultramarines. Come on people, wouldn't having the "heroes" so to speak of 40k be these fire gun wielding fanatics be epic?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> 2nd War for Armageddon, 1st & 2nd Tyranid Wars...we really could go on.


The 2nd War for Armageddon was really the Blood Angels war through and through.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

whiplash308 said:


> ... armor with a _tiny_ little shoulder pad trim depicting what company they're from? Yeah I agree, bland and *lame.*


Just like most Chapters (including the Imperial Fists) then.


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## whiplash308 (Jan 14, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Just like most Chapters (including the Imperial Fists) then.


Exactly, which is one of the many reasons why I hate Loyalists so much. 

Yeah Chaos has their boring and bland looking warbands (Prime example: Black Legion, oh good lord), but there are some that are one color with a simple trim, that also have some third kind of detail on it. Examples being: Company of Misery, Brotherhood of Darkness, and especially the mighty Night Lords legion.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Angel of Blood said:


> The 2nd War for Armageddon was really the Blood Angels war through and through.


The Blood Angels had the most glory from that War but without the efforts of the Ultramarines and Salamanders (who also deployed in their entirety) that daring assault from the skies would eventually have been swallowed by the Ork hordes.

So yeah the BA may get all the acclaim but the other 2 Chapters fought just as hard.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

UM = boring, black legion = boring. Mind you every other chapter would seem as boring if they were force fed to you on a daily basis, and thats the problem. Half of the hate is the fact that unlike CSM's (Thank god) no one can truly play a vinnila chapter. For you are in reality just borrowing stuff from the UM codex.


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## whiplash308 (Jan 14, 2009)

Hooray for not everyone technically playing Black Legion! Though not as much compared to the 3rd ed codex...but who cares!


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

I'm going to have to explain this shit once and for all that the older Ultramarines were pretty good, quoting this from a very reliable website.



> Before the time of stupid - before the thrice-cursed Matt Ward.
> There was an actual fanbase for this chapter once, one that once held deep reverence for the Ultramarines - not because of idiotic Matt Ward fluff, but because they were honest-to-goodness "Joe Everyman" of Space Marines. Many players who stuck with Marines got their start with the Ultramarines, and there was ample fluff of the chapter taking its lumps and fighting on, like men - Maccrage, Black Reach, and more. Hell, even Winter Assault harkened back to these simpler times, back when the Ultramarines were worthy of respect and whilst /tg/ simply disliked them before, it was mostly because of the population of newblets that arrived, and not because the fluff was retarded and portrayed them as SECOND TO TEH EMPRAH. Armies like Matt Hudson's were examples of what an actually good Ultramarines group with deep fluff centered around every victory and loss could be like. Players reminisced over the Ultras because they were, for many, their starting army for 40K.
> 
> The Ultramarine's central concepts were that of a well drilled, immaculate army of warrior-monks who executed their duty with professionalism and competence. "By the book, no mistakes," was the Ultramarine way. In part this came because of their extensive study and practice of the Codex Astartes, which covered a very broad range of battlefield situations and doctrine to live by. Thanks to each and every one of them training and living by it, their companies operated like a smoothly functioning combat machine with every unit functionally interlocking with every other. However, as much as this by-the-book discipline was their strength, it was also their weakness, since the few situations that the Codex Astartes did not prepare them for tended to catch them flat-footed, lacking the flexibility to properly respond. The initial Tyranid invasion was one such situation, and presumably new doctrine had to be written for dealing with them. Putting it differently, they had weaknesses to balance out their strengths, and actual character development, something this ****** gets the vapors over.
> ...


tl;dr

they were alright...

...But then Matt Ward hit the scene and shit hit the fan.

On the reason why GW uses the Ultramarines for the majority of their advertising is that they are the basic space marine army that new people or those who are unfamiliar, can get into without much brain hurt. Its that simple, they are the coca cola of GW. Besides, their color scheme as well is very catchy, the blue standing out pretty well on the box covers.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

The Ultramarines can be very interesting, its just that often their portrayed in a very one dimensional 'we are the best, every chapter wants to be like us, go Codex Astartes fashion'. 

They can however be interesting. Some more interesting perspectives: The rivalry between Cato and Sicarius, the limited ability of the ultramarines to do anything on a galactic scale, bound as they are to the Ultramar system. The fact that as rulers of an empire they are the opposite of what the Asartes were originally intended to be. Their blind, slavish adherence to the Codex Astartes, where rather than a manual on warfare it has become a holy tome, and the Ultramarines inflexible in their adherence to it. So slavish that they exile a decorated Captain for not following it. Guilliman's concept of an Imperium Secundus where Ultramar and the Ultima Segmentum must survive on its own, turning its back on the Imperium as a failed experiment, where loyalty to the ideals and vision of the Emperor is more important than loyalty to the Emperor himself. 

All of these perspectives are far more interesting than what is usually seen however, thus propagating the Ultramarines are boring fallacy. Fall of Damnos was a step in the right direction focusing on Cato's hubris and arrogance. 

Also this man's blog should dissuade any who say an Ultramarines army must be boring. http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146205&page=8

edit- also plus one to the post above, i posted mine before reading it but agree wholeheartedly with the quotations argument.


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## Lastik (Jun 15, 2011)

I share many of the views here and I won't repeat what's been said already. I'll however add a little nugget that fuels the whole propaganda stance they seem to have.

If you have the codex SM or the BRB (I think it's also there), check out the Tyranic War banner of the Ultramarines. On the flag above the marine it says "Our Presence Remake The Past".

There's also some BL stuff that seems to point that things didn't happen like the Ultras say (and is believed by the Imperium), but that's something people with better BL-fu than me have to check :biggrin:


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

scscofield said:


> We call the codex vanilla marines but the codex more of a UM codex than a general SM codex.


I think this is why they're everwhere, and also a great chapter. Their boss man wrote the codex astartes for every chapter to adhere to, and I personally believe that the reason they're the poster boys is because they show exactly how he codex astartes is. Any codex chapter can be made around them, it may not have the fluff for them, but their adherence to he codex can be copied from them.

That and blue is a boss colour. Personally I'd rather have loads of fluff on them than ten pages on the Emperor's Pride, Gout Legion, *insert cool word her* lords/angels/dragons/hermits. With the UM, DA, BA, SW, and a few others getting the love it shows some nutjob chapters and the set in their ways chapter, which basically covers all chapters! 

Thats what I reckon.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> They did not wind up taking a heavily-defended city that had dug in with fifty marines after it had 2 weeks to prepare its defenses because taking it the quick way with hundreds of casualties "would have been too easy."
> 
> That award goes to the Alpha Legion.


the Alpha Legion is just as ridiculously plot-armoured as the Smurfs are


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## Lastik (Jun 15, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> the Alpha Legion is just as ridiculously plot-armoured as the Smurfs are


Honestly, if Tzeentch is the god of convoluted plans and inane conspiracies, then the Alphas are more followers of the Changer of Ways than the Thousand Sons themselves :laugh:


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Lastik said:


> Honestly, if Tzeentch is the god of convoluted plans and inane conspiracies, then the Alphas are more followers of the Changer of Ways than the Thousand Sons themselves :laugh:


pretty much
and the Alphas never lose...only appear to lose so that they may gain some advantage further down the road 

at least the Smurfs lose every now and then


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

Ah, Ultramarine hate rears its head yet again, just like CSM Codex hate and Space Marine hate and Matt Ward hate and... I forget how many 40k hates there are, but why bother? It's just a game and the less time you spend hating, the more you have for playing.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Blue Roman inspired warriors = win!


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

i think the problem with the ultramarines is guilleman came to terra with a practically untouched legion and took command of all the forces which where decreed by the emperor himself to be under the command of rogal dorn. told the legions to disband, which in itself is tantamount to taking liberties only reserved for the emperor. treated the remaining loyalist who actually defended terra against chaos as traitors themselves when they refused to do has he said. now added to what we read in rules of engagement we can pretty much say that guilleman is a complete arsehole and needs the full vlka fenryka treatment on his ass. and we all know that if sanguinius hadnt been murdered that he would have taken command of the imperium and guilleman would have had to keep his ideas to his own legion and self lol.

so my point is that UM fluff has been handled badly and if they had maybe made them not so full of themselves and superior then people might not have such a problem. i for one really like their colour scheme but the fluff makes me hate them. especially the bit about guilleman not being a original primarch but still being given such a pivotal role in space marine history.

maybe abnett can do for them what he did for the vlka fenryka but i really dont think lightning can strick twice and seeing as abnett said when he wrote ultramarine movie that he didnt realise they were despised so much im not really holding much hope for them. but then he hasnt got any qualms about changing fluff i.e. bjorns arm so maybe theres hope. haha


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Unknown Primarch said:


> treated the remaining loyalist who actually defended terra against chaos as traitors themselves when they refused to do has he said.


Except 2 of the 3 defending Legions either supported Guilliman's plans (the White Scars) or were concerned with weightier matters and were content to leave a topic like organisation to others (the Blood Angels).

Rogal Dorn was made Commander of the loyalist forces, not the Imperium itself- he was the Supreme General (if only because he was also the only Primarch the Emperor could be sure of at the time).


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## hungryugolino (Sep 12, 2009)

The fact is that it was a coup by the most cowardly of the Primarchs. This is a fact based on fluff that dates back to the Index Astartes and is supported by the modern Heresy stories.

Also, Ultramarines are bland, generally poorly written, and come off as incompetent in most of their stories despite their alleged l33t skills.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

ThatOtherGuy said:


> ...But then Matt Ward hit the scene and shit hit the fan.


To be fair people hated the Ultramarines long before Matt Ward came around.

Even the 4th edition codex was more heavily filled with the Ultramarines then any other chapter. All the battle Fluff? Ultramarines. Vast majority of the pictures? Ultramarines. Hell, the 4th edition codex only had 2 named special characters who weren't Ultramarines (Shrike and Lysander). Sure, it had the chapter traits table to "build" your own chapter, but there was almost NO fluff about anybody other then the Ultramarines.

Real reason people hate the Ultramarines? Chances are they don't read beyond the basic fluff presented in the codex. All the UMs stories in the 5th edition codex, aside from Assault on Black Reach, show that the Ultramarines are indeed able to fail and come close several times. People read the end of the story, see a "victory" and they think the Ultramarines are unstoppable. Add into this that the Ultramarines don't have a specific focus and people assume that they are a "average" chapter and all other specialist chapters should be better then them at everything.

Due to this you have players/readers holding the Ultramarines to a different standard then other Space Marine chapters. They claim it's lame that Tigirus is the "most powerful" pskyer in the Imperium, but Mephy from the Blood Angels can tear a carnifax in half with his bear hands and solo kill a Hive Tyrant with it's guard before going down (but not dying) without being over the top. Calgar is a lame leader that is saved by plot armor against an Avatar, but Dante is able to live to be 1200 years old, is rumored to have killed a Bloodthrister in one blow (we know he killed him but not how), and is given command of 2 other first founding chapters (Including the Ultramarines) during one of the Wars for Armageddon out of respect. Sicarius is a "generic" captain but Blackmane excels in the same type of strikes/tactics that Sicarius and both are hot headed captains out to prove themselves. They are the same damn guy but no one has a problem with Blackmane because he's a Space Wolf and thus, not "generic".


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> Except 2 of the 3 defending Legions either supported Guilliman's plans (the White Scars) or were concerned with weightier matters and were content to leave a topic like organisation to others (the Blood Angels).
> 
> Rogal Dorn was made Commander of the loyalist forces, not the Imperium itself- he was the Supreme General (if only because he was also the only Primarch the Emperor could be sure of at the time).


well if you look at it the blood angels, iron hands, raven guard, white scars, salamanders and dark angels were either highly decimated or had lost a primarch so they basically fitted straight into the codex without having to split. the fact the primarchless legions wouldnt go against the edicts of a primarch stand to reason. the most headstrong of the primarchs ie dorn, vulkan and russ knew the power of the legions and probably knew they were stronger being one entity than split up or knew that the way their culture was that trying to split them just wouldnt work long term. 
cant really put a reason on why the khan was for the codex but it probably just a illthought out bit of fluff to be honest. corax is obvious as he was a blithering wreck so probably didnt give a shit plus seeing as his legion slotted right into the codex and was a way for his legion to still survive id imagine thats the answer.
one thing i find interesting but not really confirmed is if guilleman waited until after the emperor went silent to enact his plan for the legions. we know the emperor was speaking for a time and im sure a loyal son would want to see his father who was near death so why not get official approval instead of nearly causing another civil war. im sure the primarchs would have done what the emperor decreed if he had done so.


as for what you say about dorn it touchs on what i said before. if guilleman is the better option why hadnt the emperor gave powers to guilleman and laid some groundwork to keep the imperium alive. i know dorn didnt have power over the whole imperium so how did guilleman just come along and effective take that power?! id say the emperor knew guilleman was a good planner but maybe not so much a allround people person and left things to someone who was ie dorn. he had been around terra for a long time and had played his role perfectly and was probably highly respected across the board so was in the best place to take charge.
maybe it was down to him going nuts but if your beloved father has been killed then you expect it. he was getting the job of killing traitors done so unless he has done something really bad for the imperium then it just seems guilleman is taking power he always wanted as warmaster.

to be honest though we all know sanguinius would have been the one to rule if he had lived so maybe thats a factor that need to be addressed to find the answer.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

The Sullen One said:


> Ah, Ultramarine hate rears its head yet again, just like CSM Codex hate and Space Marine hate and Matt Ward hate and... I forget how many 40k hates there are, but why bother? It's just a game and the less time you spend hating, the more you have for playing.


Hatred is just as human as love, and will exist as long as wee do. Embrace the hate embrace humanity.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Unknown Primarch said:


> cant really put a reason on why the khan was for the codex but it probably just a illthought out bit of fluff to be honest. corax is obvious as he was a blithering wreck so probably didnt give a shit plus seeing as his legion slotted right into the codex and was a way for his legion to still survive id imagine thats the answer.


probably because both of those Primarchs simply agreed with Guilliman, their own M.O would have complimented the new Codex and they had the foresight to see that the Crusade was over but the ruins of the Imperium needed to be safeguarded. Whereas Russ, Vulkan, and Dorn were blind to the realities of a Galaxy that no longer trusted the Astartes and the power they wielded.


Unknown Primarch said:


> one thing i find interesting but not really confirmed is if guilleman waited until after the emperor went silent to enact his plan for the legions. we know the emperor was speaking for a time and im sure a loyal son would want to see his father who was near death so why not get official approval instead of nearly causing another civil war. im sure the primarchs would have done what the emperor decreed if he had done so.


The Emperor spoke for only a very short amount of time, and even then only beause Malcador had sacrificed the last reserves of his life force to make it so- it was doubtful that Russ, Johnson, or Guilliman were even on Terra when the Emperor fell silent for eternity. If a meeting between the Khan (who we know for certain was on Terra) and his father is not mentioned then what hope that any Primarchs not in the Sol System would have gained one?

Guilliman, alongside Sanguinius and Johnson, was considered one of the Triumverate by his brothers- the most loyal and able of the Emperor's Sons, after the favoured Horus of course. With Sanguinius dead and the Lion missing Guilliman was the obvious choice to take command of the Imperium, or at least to guide it to some level of stability.




Unknown Primarch said:


> as for what you say about dorn it touchs on what i said before. if guilleman is the better option why hadnt the emperor gave powers to guilleman and laid some groundwork to keep the imperium alive. i know dorn didnt have power over the whole imperium so how did guilleman just come along and effective take that power?! id say the emperor knew guilleman was a good planner but maybe not so much a allround people person and left things to someone who was ie dorn. he had been around terra for a long time and had played his role perfectly and was probably highly respected across the board so was in the best place to take charge.


Dorn was the perfect son to fulfil the role of honourable Praetorian, but as a diplomat and politician he could not compare to some of his brothers. Horus may have been the best suited to that role but Guilliman was not without some talent in the position.
As to why Dorn was promoted to lead the Imperium's forces? He was the only Primarch by the Emperor's side, it's not exactly a difficult decision to make when you only have 1 option.



Unknown Primarch said:


> maybe it was down to him going nuts but if your beloved father has been killed then you expect it. he was getting the job of killing traitors done so unless he has done something really bad for the imperium then it just seems guilleman is taking power he always wanted as warmaster.


He ignored the Imperium, he put off the job he should have been performing in order to take revenge- an emotionally unstable warlord is not one you want directing a now leaderless Empire.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Unknown Primarch said:


> well if you look at it the blood angels, iron hands, raven guard, white scars, salamanders and dark angels were either highly decimated or had lost a primarch so they basically fitted straight into the codex without having to split. the fact the primarchless legions wouldnt go against the edicts of a primarch stand to reason. the most headstrong of the primarchs ie dorn, vulkan and russ knew the power of the legions and probably knew they were stronger being one entity than split up or knew that the way their culture was that trying to split them just wouldnt work long term.


Actually according to Imperial Armour 10 Vulkan is retconned as a strong Guilliman supporter.



Unknown Primarch said:


> cant really put a reason on why the khan was for the codex but it probably just a illthought out bit of fluff to be honest..


Maybe the Khan thought it was actually a good idea?



Unknown Primarch said:


> corax is obvious as he was a blithering wreck so probably didnt give a shit plus seeing as his legion slotted right into the codex and was a way for his legion to still survive id imagine thats the answer.
> .


IA Raven Guard implies otherwise.



> Following the Heresy, Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines, became the de facto head of the Imperium's armed forces and one of the first edicts is his holy tome, the Codex Astartes, was that the Space Marines Legions be split into smaller units known as Chapters. Amongst many of the Primarchs there was resistance, but Corax welcomed the decision, knowing that Guilliman's vision of the future was true.





Unknown Primarch said:


> as for what you say about dorn it touchs on what i said before. if guilleman is the better option why hadnt the emperor gave powers to guilleman and laid some groundwork to keep the imperium alive. i know dorn didnt have power over the whole imperium so how did guilleman just come along and effective take that power?! id say the emperor knew guilleman was a good planner but maybe not so much a allround people person and left things to someone who was ie dorn. he had been around terra for a long time and had played his role perfectly and was probably highly respected across the board so was in the best place to take charge.


Dorn was appointed loyalist commander at a time when both the Lion and Guilliman were on the other side of the galaxy and warp storms making things difficult for communications. I'm sure if the Emperor had all the Primarchs to choose from he would have made a different descision.

Dorn then proceeded to shut himself from everyone and go off on his personal vengence crusade instead of furfullling his duties of being commander in chief. That's unprofessional in any military.

IA Imperial Fists



> Whatever the cause, Rogal Dorn was absent from the highest councils until he was summoned back to Terra when Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines presented his Codex Astartes as the future of the Space Marines.
> 
> Dorn was shaken, his quest for redemption had blinded him to changing times. He could not see why humanity would not trust the Imperial Fists because of what the Traitor Legions had done.


Guilliman never took command of anything, the Codex Astartes was implemented at the behest of the High Lords. Guilliman had been writing a prototype version, but Guilliman was ultimately responsible for reforming the military, not commanding it.

Insignium Astartes



> After the traitors of Horus and been defeated and banished the High Lords of Terra decreed that never again should so many Space Marines fall under the sway of one man, however noble his intent. Thus it was that Roboute embarked on the creation of the Space Marine Chapter.


Funny, how said reforms reduced his power.



Unknown Primarch said:


> maybe it was down to him going nuts but if your beloved father has been killed then you expect it. he was getting the job of killing traitors done so unless he has done something really bad for the imperium then it just seems guilleman is taking power he always wanted as warmaster.


Without the Ultramarines Legion there would be no Imperium. They made up half the Astartes in the field and probably saw more actions than the Fists by sheer numbers alone.

IA Ultramarines



> The enemies of Mankind, sensing the weakness of the Imperium, prepared to attack, but Roboute Guilliman vowed that the Emperor's realm would not fall and took it upon himself to hold it together. He despatched his Legion throughout the galaxy to stem the tide of invasion and unrest, holding the fragile Imperium together through a time of great danger. Macragge provided recruits as fast as it could, and soon the Ultramarines accounted for more than half of the Space Marines in the field. After almost a decade of total war, stability was restored to the galaxy and the philosophies of the Ultramarines' way of war had permeated almost every Legion. Under Guilliman's guidance, the holy Codex Astartes was taking shape and its doctrines would shape every future Space Marine force and lay the foundations for the Imperium's conventional military might.


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

The Ultramarines happen to be painted the color of ultramarine, come from Ultima sector of space, planet of Ultrimar, and have a primarch with, possibly, the wimpiest name of them all, Roboute Guilliman? I mean, c'mon, who wouldn't dislike a name game, like that.

Plus, the emperor obviously had a plan for the Ultramarines. He built them up into the largest of the legions, then purposefully kept them out of the worst of the fighting during the Heresy. I think the Emperor saw the Heresy coming a mile off, and took steps to ensure the empire would live on. The Ultramarines were plan B in case Terra was destroyed.

Plus the fact that the last few codexes have feature tons of Ultrafluff and characters and very little of the other legions.

Oh, and it wasn't just the Imperial Fists at the battle of Terra. There were at least 3 full legions (Blood Angels, White Scars, and Imperial Fists), plus parts of others.

I would say that Imperial Fists get the award for most bland.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

jaysen said:


> Plus, the emperor obviously had a plan for the Ultramarines. He built them up into the largest of the legions, then purposefully kept them out of the worst of the fighting during the Heresy. I think the Emperor saw the Heresy coming a mile off, and took steps to ensure the empire would live on. The Ultramarines were plan B in case Terra was destroyed.


Or because the Emperor lost contact with like a 100 loyalist legions due to the planning of the chaos powers and their new servants.

Also check out Age of Darkness.



jaysen said:


> I would say that Imperial Fists get the award for most bland.


There is a reason why the new Space-Marine videogame features the Ultramarines.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

I can only convey my dislike towards Ultramrines and that is becuase i have done some travels over the few years and either watched or played, mainly watched tournaments and other games, and i have noticed that about 75% of all Space Marine Armies are Ultramarines.

I also have lost count the many times i have seen kids that get into the hobby/gaming and are steered by GW staff towards painting their new Space Marine Army in the colours of the Ultramarines.

There is supposed to be 1,000 Chapters, but i have only in my travels seen about 10 Chapters represented.

This is not just a particular disease for Space Marines, i have seen more and more Chaos Space Marine Hobbiest/Players only picking maybe 5 ot 6 of the known traitor legions, very rarely i see anyone actually thinking outside the circle.


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## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> The Blood Angels were fighting a force of Necrons when a large fleet of Tyranids attacked- the BA and 'Crons stopped fighting each other and both turned on the Nids. After the battle was won neither the Necrons or Blood Angels were in any condition to resume the fight so they both backed off and went their seperate ways.


How did they even go about communicating the ceasefire and subsequent concerted attack against the 'nids?!


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Digg40k said:


> How did they even go about communicating the ceasefire and subsequent concerted attack against the 'nids?!


No idea, charades?


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

I think it was one of those Army Backstory Madlib moments-

"The Blood Angels were fighting _______ and then the _______ came and so they...." 

and somebody put in Necrons for the first one, not realizing what the rest said.


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## Lastik (Jun 15, 2011)

And why would the necrons care? I mean it's not like they have/need biomass..


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## Caratacos (Aug 26, 2008)

The hate is there because the Ultramarines actually are third founding impostors. See the link The Ultramarine coverup in my sig.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Uhh you do realise that what your basing your theory off is incredibly old fluff which has since been retconned? I mean that stuff's off the same vintage where Tigurius was half eldar, the squats were still around and horus was originally just a general not a primarch.

It's all hopelessly outdated and retconed- no longer applies. 

Hell just read some of the Horus Heresy books- the Ultramarines are in them. Their also in collected visions, these are out of universe omniscient publications. 

The Tyrannids can't be a bio weapon as they're attack more than just the Ultima Segmentum and more Hive Fleets keep popping up. As to why there is a titan legion on Maccrage during the Tyrannic War (who are not actually based on the planet), probably because the Ultramar sector is wealthy and strategically important and the Ultramarines have a lot of political clout.


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## 5tonsledge (May 31, 2010)

comrade said:


> I hate them because every damn other army I play is ultramarines. and the other army is space marines in a different color.
> 
> its not a hate for ultramarines per se , but mainly a dislike of spacemarines. and that effects my fluff view on them also.


i use to agree back when Black Reach came out, but IG and Orks are the new scrub spam armies. there are 6 ig players and more coming to my shop. it pisses me off people found the biggest band wagon to hop and the jumped on feet first. fuck me if i play another hydra flak autocannon list again i will die a little bit inside. shit its so srubbish. besides ig orks get played a lot. but i think the alure to orks is people who like to customize models and what not. which i respect, because they are true hobbiests. anyways enough rant.
back to the orignal thread question. I like ultramarines and i think the hatred towards them comes from being the poster children of 40k. kinda like i hate black legion and red chorsairs because they are slammed all over chaos codex pics and what not. my oppinion though


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## Caratacos (Aug 26, 2008)

You know, it's all part of the coverup. They want you to believe that it's just an old fairy tale :wink:



Rems said:


> Uhh you do realise that what your basing your theory off is incredibly old fluff which has since been retconned? I mean that stuff's off the same vintage where Tigurius was half eldar, the squats were still around and horus was originally just a general not a primarch.
> 
> It's all hopelessly outdated and retconed- no longer applies.
> 
> ...


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Caratacos said:


> The hate is there because the Ultramarines actually are third founding impostors. See the link The Ultramarine coverup in my sig.


Thanks, I needed a laugh.

But seriously, it's called a retcon.


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

All the usual given theories are correct, surely?

GW turns everything up to 11. So the chosen 'face' of the Space Marines get their exploits super-charged to all heck and back, which in a game system built around competition, rivalry, one-upmanship and people of varying levels of age and maturity, is going to cause friction.

Them picking one Chapter to highlight was annoying as shit when it happened...when Marine painting articles in WD went from featuring the UM, the BA and the DA (sometimes the Wolves and Fists too) to just the Smurfs...urgh. * But *you can see why they did it. Easier to market the concept and the game. Smart idea. One chapter needs to be the 'Vanilla Marines' so everyone can see what a base equivalent is. We need to come up with a reason for this to exist in-game, so hey, they follow the Codex slavishly, job done.

But then the nonsensical/hypocritical shit started. Like, remember when Tyranid Hunters were introduced? 
The Smurfs were _generally_ accepted as being the 'face' of the Marines - not liked, just accepted - because they were clearly and obviously the 'Vanilla Marines' exemplar. They may have been the pretty face upfront, but all the cool dudes at the back wore different colours. 
And then they start getting unique units that defy the Codex Astartes, their most important fluff characteristic and the in-game justification why the real world product is the face of the faction!
Now they came up with in-context explanations, but it doesn't change the fact that GW changed the core concept and invalidated the 'fair' reason why the UM are always the poster boys. 

And then this concept got twisted, so that the UM weren't the face of the faction because they were the blandest, or 'most normal', they were the face of the faction because they were the best! Which came outta nowhere and became a weird self-justifying belief...they became the face of the SM in the universe itself, not just in real world material...because they were the best and most popular...which is why they were the face of the game...because the consumer base made them the most popular by painting up their minis in the style of the chapter on the box...which somehow means "most popular must be the best" in GW land...urgh. The whole thing's a mess.

Then you get writers like Mat(t) Ward whose technique is to EXTREME everything up, so the 'best' Chapter _actually has have a demonstrable claim to be the best_ in fluff and on the TT, so they get buffed fluff and minis/rules, despite the fact that they should have no extra-special things at all, as they are the poster boys because they are the normal guys!

tl;dr
GW took an acceptable (even necessary) concept and completely ganked it because they couldn't resist it.


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## Achaylus72 (Apr 30, 2011)

Someone has to be the Poster Boys of the Imperium, and i guess having that particular name of Ultramarines sort of is self explanitory of them being the Ultra-Marines.

If the Ultramarines are a way into this hobby because of their coolnes factor then so be it.

When i bought my first starter box Battle of Maccragge i actually was going to build an Ultramarine Army, but it never got off the ground.

It is like the Imperial Guard, the Cadians/Catachans are the poster boys of the IG


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