# The Primarchs



## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

Now before we get started this isnt a thread where im after the return of the primarchs or who the missing primarchs are/were etc this is too find out what your opinions and theories are surround the primarchs who survived the heresy and aint dead, so corax, vulkan, khan and russ. We can rule out guilliman and dorn as both are dead/ or practically dead. So where to begin, what do we know corax left in a shuttle bound for the EoT saying 'never more', vulkan vowed to return when all his artifacts are returned to nocturne, the khan missing in the webway and the wolf king in the EoT and vowed to return for the wolf time (soon maybe who knows). So lets start with Vulkan presuming he is alive how would he know that his artifacts have been found by his sons unless he is keeping tabs on them thoughtout the ages thats my theory, will he return unlikely unless GW want to advance the story, Corax heading to the EoT and for what reasons? absolution? revenge one can only guess is he alive that i would say probs not. the Khan,...10,000 years in the webway is a long time and if he is fighting then he is most likely dead. The wolf king returning for the wolf time, maybe this is happening now i remember seeing somewhere that reports of space wolves coming out of the EoT could lead to him coming back and still alive, so i believe that vulkan and the wolf king are alive and corax and khan unlikely but thats my opinion. And i know i left the lion out but we know he is being kept by the watchers but for what....


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Being a White Scars fan, I like to keep my mind open when it comes to the Khan. For example, being in the Webway doesnt necessarily mean that you are in open combat 24/7. There are many winding paths and it is hopeful that he fell into the depths of the Webway and so is lost and also hidden from Eldar and DE. 
Other possibilities being that he got sucked into the webway and after being lost, fell out on some distant planet with no human life and is out there in the cosmos somewhere, incredibly unlikely, but possible and probably the only way for him to be alive. If Primarchs need to eat that is, im assuming they do. However both those options above would lead him to be completely insane, being alone for 10,000 years. Especially seeing as the last time he went out of contact with the Imperium, he came back to discover half the legions had turned traitor. 

But there is one last ... ok it is not a possibility, this is now me just dreaming about something I know is completely impossible and will not ever happen. Ever. 
But as I am an Eldar player aswell as a White scars fan, my fantasy is that the Harlequinns or Cegorach found the Khan and kept him safe, to manifest him with the will of khaine to be the Eldar's saviour. Or to deliver the Imperium from chaos at the end of times or to return to face some unspeakable evil or ... something ... 

Yeah yeah, I know its impossible but hey, a guy can dream can't he?


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I honestly don't think after what we've seen of the space marines (loyalist) that we should go to the conclusion that the primarchs would age to death. I honestly do think they are immortal as they are one step removed from the Emperor himself. That being said it's been implied that Russ is probably in the EOT hunting something or someone.Corax was already a broken man so he may have been taken out be a greater daemon or he's still traveling aroudn the eye as,like the traitors,only a century or two has passed since the heresy for them within the EOT. Khan I don't think could be taken down by dark eldar that easily. I do believe that he's somewhere like Russ kicking ass and taking names. The only thing I could see slowing him down in the webway is if he ran into the Harlequins and the Laughing God.That could go anyway. Oh if Gulliman were alive,I'd personally dedicate what meagre funds I have to getting into that universe to kill him myself. Thanks fulgrim,you did all of us a favor. The Lion it's pretty obvious that the Watchers will let him go when the feel like it or when it right.


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

I think Vulkan is actually one of the missing Artifacts who will reveal himself when the others are collected. He could easily have tabs kept on the chapter by keeping spies and informants on Nocturne to tell him what is and is not going around. Until then he's probably forging some great weapon for his return. One thing that sticks out about him is that he was built with compassion. Telling me that his return would coincide with the new age of Mankind.

The Khan is lost in the Webway and at the least will have lost a good portion of his sanity wandering around the thing. Or He's got a massive warband of followers he's picked up along the way and has developed some kind of "conquer the webway before I return" mentality. Same goes for the Wolf-King. Unless Chaos is destroyed and defeated he won't return, assuming he's alive.

Corax seems too fluff orientated to really have anything to care about. He's also not one of the "Major" primarchs in my opinion and therefore I doubt we'll see him resurface.


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## BLvice (Mar 20, 2009)

As posted above, I hold the belief that primarchs are essentially immortal. They can only meet death at the hands of injury etc.. That being said, all of the above mentioned primarchs could be alive. Corax and Russ are more then likely dead. They may not have died of old age, but 10,000 years in the Eye of Terror does not bode well for their health. Vulkan is a bit of a mystery as we dont really have any idea where he is residing. Finally, the webway is a complex and dangerous place and the odds would be against Khan being alive. However, for all we know every single one of them is alive due to some turn of events. In fact, with the exception of a few primarchs i can think off, almost all of them are still present in some manner. Whether it be stasis, daemnonhood, or a nice long nap, quite a few of them are still in the equation.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

As a Raven Guard fan i'd really like Corax to be around still... and fluff wise he very well might be. After all if he focuses his mind, he is ignored by anyone who sees him, so he could just be cruising around but nobody notices. He might be hiding because he is still ashamed by what he did to those new recruits but still fighting the good fight in secret by himself.

That's part of the 40k world in my mind anyway!


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

The only time I've witnessed a Primarchs mind break is when it's concerning their sons or father. Beings created to lead and wage war across solar systems I don't think would have a problem continuing that fight after 10,000 years.Look at the 13th company of the Space Wolves. After 10,000 years the only problems they had when Ragnar found them were missing beer. Mentally they were still holding it together and even mastering the wulfen change. If they can manage I'm sure Russ is okay. Corax was a different story as it looked like after what went down with his sons he may have actually wanted the Emperor's mercy for himself. Vulkan I think he was never really about the employment of spies but he may know when he wants to show back up.As far as the Khan is concerned I don't see how 10,000 years would matter.If he was alive in the Imperium now what do you think he'd be doing,making sweaters? All these guys are built for war,I think honestly time doesn't hold anything fatal to these guys.If he's in the webway time and space flow different there as well. He's probably still hunting,he's based off of Ghengis Khan for fuck sakes. If it's not the Black Library and the Laughing God have him,I'm thinking he's still slaughtering to his hearts desire all the black eldar he can find.


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## Daemon Child (Apr 12, 2011)

What iv learned is that corax is dead and his body is in stasis on terra, the lion was taken away by the warp, vulkan simply vanished but rumoured to return when the last of the artifacts have been found and returned to nocturn, as for khan i only know that he his dead


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Daemon Child said:


> What iv learned is that corax is dead and his body is in stasis on terra, the lion was taken away by the warp, vulkan simply vanished but rumoured to return when the last of the artifacts have been found and returned to nocturn, as for khan i only know that he his dead


And where did you learn all that then? It contradicts most of what we know about the primarch's fates.

Here are my thoughts. I think Corax is dead. He was a broken man when he left for the Eye of Terror. He saw his legion decimated, his brothers turn traitor, the Imperium devolve into nothing recognizable and he created monsters out of his own sons from his experiments. He then locked himself in his tower looking for absolution. Perhaps he did not find it and it was the final straw that broke the camel back. He went to the Eye to die. 

Russ likely dead too. x thousand years in the Eye of Terror where everything is hostile to you is not going to help your survival odds. If anything can take down a priamrch its going to be in the Eye. That said if anyone could survive the eye it would be a primarch. 

The khan could very well be alive, the webway is a big place. He could be trapped in a pocket dimension or have been spat out on some world. I like to think that he was in fact captured by the Dark Eldar and has been a 'guest' of the haemonculi all this time. The ultimate subject if you will, a being more biologically sophisticated than even they can produce and unbreakable. If that is the case he's quite likely insane with anger by now. 

The lion is alive- kept hidden by the watchers in the bowls of The Rock. The question is when, if ever, he will be released and just what state he will be in when he comes back. 

Vulkan's is a strange case as he just seems to have disapeared. If he is alive and well you'd have to wonder why he had not returned yet. Surely he could have done more good being actively involved in the Imperium. I suppsoe there could be the risk of relgious factionalism though. Being the lone primarch up and about he very well may have been deified, an emperor that people can actually see and touch.


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## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

Corax might be dead, as people have said his mental state left something to be desired and after what his legions get stabbed in the back then personally killing all the loyalist things he created i reckon he went off the deep end, maybe he was heading to the EoT for a bit of revenge on the sons of lorgar and was hoping for atonement by dying with as many traitors as possible dead at his feet. Vulkan if he is in hiding and waiting for his time to return i would say could be hiding on Mars, Terra or Nocturne and i dont think he is one of the lost artifacts, and if he isnt watching his sons maybe when all the 9 artifacts are found and in close enough range to each they might trigger a signal to recall Vulkan either teleport him from wherever or wake him from statis if he went into statis that is  just a shame that theres no more fluff just yet. Maybe if black library do a scouring series after the HH series we might find out one can only hope


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Daemon Child said:


> What iv learned is that corax is dead and his body is in stasis on terra, the lion was taken away by the warp, vulkan simply vanished but rumoured to return when the last of the artifacts have been found and returned to nocturn, as for khan i only know that he his dead


You little derp.  What have I told you about posting on matters you know nothing about? :threaten: 

The Lion is asleep beneath the rock. Vulkan and Corax were never resolved. Khan was last seen entering the webway. Recent Revelations in the book Atlas Infernal point to the very _real_ possibility that Khan may not only still be alive, but he may in fact have even grown in power and strength. 




Oh, before anyone asks about the little derp remark, Daemon Child is my ill educated younger brother.


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## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

lol derp =D and i havent read atlas infernal nor do i intend to lol i hate rob sanders with a passions so maybe a little teaser for me in a PM lol


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## Frost Wolf (Sep 21, 2011)

If its something u can learn about the Astartes from the 13th company its that they wont roll over and die, and a Primarch all the less.
Angron for example (despite being a complete lunatic) were able to (more or less) single handed taking down entire cities and planets if u so will.
If regular (hardened veterans none the less) of the Space Wolfs is able to survive for TEN millenia in the EoT (with no ale) i do belive Russ is very much alive.

For The khan... He is a born hunter on the plains of his home World and to hunt in the Webway for Ten millenia i think is like a retirement for him.

Corax? well Angron showed that even a weak minded Primarch is dangerous, he is sure to be cousing mayhem in the Eye

Vulkan? a seminar maybe who knows? or maybe be working on something... secret :biggrin:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

To everyone saying Corax and Russ are probably dead after spending 10,000 years in the Eye have to remember that time flows differently within the Eye. Russ or Corax could emerge in the 41st Millenium having spent only an hour in the Eye. Of course it works both ways..

Serpion, any chance you could elaborate on the Atlas Infernal fluff? I don't really intend on reading it. Could PM or whatever.


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

My take is that while the Primarchs are all Daemon Princes, missing or dead, we've not seen the last of them. The missing/unknown fate Primarchs:

*The Lion* - Missing, sleeping inside the Rock. Said to return to Lead the Dark Angels when they need him the most.
*Russ *- Missing, last seen heading with his bodyguard to the Eye of Terror for unknown reasons. He said he would return at 'Wolf time' 
*Vulkan *- Missing. Said he would return when all his artefacts had been found.
*Guilliman *- Alive, but in stasis due to his near-fatal wound. It's said however, that the wound is healing very slowly.
*Corax *- Missing, presumed dead. He never said he would return, nor is there any evidence to suggest this. After his deeds during the Heresy, and his final words being 'never more' (a play on the Raven poem) I believe he went to the Eye of Terror to die. Whether he did, or found something to sustain/redeem him, possibly, but his final words suggest to me that he wanted to die, and probably got his wish.
*Khan *- Missing, fate unknown. I don't know enough of the webway to make a judgement on this at all.
*Dorn *- Missing, presumed dead. His gauntlets were found, but I reckon he died. [Edit: Confirmed dead]
*Alpharius Omegeon* - One presumed dead, other unknown. I believe one of the twins was killed, though it is worth noting even the Ultramarines believe his death suspect. As to the other twin, and his current situation, there is no evidence for anything.

So there we go, they are the Loyalist primarchs (Alpharius turned traitor as he believed it was for the greater good) whose fates are unknown. What The Lion, Russ and Vulkan have in common is that they are all said to return when the time is right - when the Dark Angels need it most, Wolf Time and when the artefacts are found. I presume that this 'time of return' will be the same time for each of them, or very close; think of Russ' final words - "In the end I will return. For the final battle. For the Wolf Time." He speaks of a final battle, some epic finale. It's logical that would also be the time of return for the others to.

Guilliman's wound is also healing slowly, which suggests he to will return. Khan's fate is simply unknown, and from what I've read, he may or may not have survived. Same with Corax, except his final words suggest he wanted to die - "Never more". That's a powerful but damning phrase. Dorn is likely dead. Konran Curze's death was never confirmed either, but then Soul Hunter came out and it was. I think that will apply to Alpharius to, that while the death is suspect that he is actually dead.


_[Edit: Rems added some good info to my original post of this (it was in the wrong thread) here they are]_

Rems: Adding to your post though Guilliman and Dorn are both dead. Dorn's skeleton is encased in amber on the Phalanx, so there's no getting out of that. Guilliman is dead, you can't heal in a stasis field. It's just a popular belief amongst the common people of Ultramar that he's healing. The Ultramarines themselves don't believe it and multiple sources say he's dead.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Serpion, any chance you could elaborate on the Atlas Infernal fluff? I don't really intend on reading it. Could PM or whatever.


Or just spoiler tag it please? I'm very interested as well.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Frost Wolf said:


> If its something u can learn about the Astartes from the 13th company its that they wont roll over and die, and a Primarch all the less.


However the 13th Company fought as a group and still lost numerous members. Russ fights by himself. While I agree that he might still be alive there is little merit in comparing the exploits of one man to the survival of a Chapter strength organization.



> For The khan... He is a born hunter on the plains of his home World and to hunt in the Webway for Ten millenia i think is like a retirement for him.


He's not exactly hunting deer across his home plains though, more like hunting dangerous trans-dimensional predators through a maze of insanity that only they know. Sounds like a pretty brutal retirement to me.



> Corax? well Angron showed that even a weak minded Primarch is dangerous, he is sure to be cousing mayhem in the Eye


Angron isn't a weak minded individual he's simply blunt, there is a world of difference between choosing simple strategies and being 'weak minded'. Add to that the fact that it appears Corax *wanted* to die and it becomes more likely that he did. Angron is not afraid to die but he does not want to die, Corax does.


All that being said, I still think it's likely that all the missing Primarchs are still alive and that if GW ever moves the story forward they will return. They will also definitely be boosted quite seriously when they do. Khan will doubtless learn some of the horrible secrets of the Eldar allowing him to defeat the Necron menace (don't ask me how). Russ will be the biggest, baddest tank of a Primarch ever seen and will be able to fight off the Daemon Primarchs aided by Corax who will become such a ninja and psyker that he'll be able to outthink Tzeentch. Vulkan and the Lion will just be their bad selves but will also re-invent the Imperium as a haven of equality, compassion and innovation. Guilliman will be magically ressurected by the power of blue power armour and will re-write reality to make the Imperium win by making everyone else's rules suck. This is the only way that the Imperium can hope to survive the End Times, which if GW decides to do them (unlikely) is the most likely result.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

From what I've read from the old Index Astartes article it only mentions Dorns remains including his hand, it's very old though and could easily be retconned, like a lot of stuff that already has. Considering his more prominent role that appears from the books, failing to take a battleships bridge is a pretty lame end for a Primarch.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Only Dorn's hands were found, his status is unknown if he is alive or dead. Every primarch can be brought back by the writers if they choose to.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

No his body was also recovered, his skeleton is encased in amber within one of the monastaries of the Phalanx


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Where does it state his body was recovered though? I've never read that any where.


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

MEQinc said:


> However the 13th Company fought as a group and still lost numerous members. Russ fights by himself


Russ is not by himself, he set off with his trusty Wolfguard, leaving Bjorn to lead the chapter. 



> Russ - Missing, last seen heading with his bodyguard to the Eye of Terror for unknown reasons. He said he would return at 'Wolf time'
> 
> 
> > Makes me think that 'wolf time' is a bit like 'beer o'clock'
> ...


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Recent Revelations in the book Atlas Infernal point to the very _real_ possibility that Khan may not only still be alive, but he may in fact have even grown in power and strength.


I've read _Atlas Infernal_*, and to my recollection there's no mention of the Khan at all. Is it more to do with the nature of the webway that you're refering? Of that there is plenty mentioned.

*To those not intending to read it, you're not missing a whole lot.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> No his body was also recovered, his skeleton is encased in amber within one of the monastaries of the Phalanx


Where was this mentioned? And even if it was, its contradictory to other fluff sources that state only his hands were found.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Where does it state his body was recovered though? I've never read that any where.


Space Marine by Ian Watson


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

No wonder, that's ancient. Even more so than the Index Astartes article.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed, but im sure i've read it elsewhere aswell.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Space Marine by Ian Watson


If this is so, then its level of canon is less then the recent fluff articles (codex) that directly state only his hands were found, along with his weapons, nothing else.


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## Machiavellismx (Sep 11, 2011)

Lux said:


> Only Dorn's hands were found, his status is unknown if he is alive or dead. Every primarch can be brought back by the writers if they choose to.


I to thought that, until reading Soul Hunter. As the majority of the Primarchs death's were always suspicious, I felt that GW had left their deaths purposely unknown so that gamers could make their own minds up, and that writers had room to create their stories. However, in Soul Hunter Konrad Curze was confirmed to be killed, while previous fluff had never confirmed this.

After reading that I began to feel that maybe some of the Primarchs really wouldn't return. I also agree with what Xarl (Soul Hunter/Blood Reaver) says anyway: The Primarchs may have been superhuman, a step from the Emperor, but they were still all too human and we're better off without most of them. They weren't as great as they thought, except for Horus.

Controversial, I know


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Actually only the Index Astartes article says only his hand was recovered. No other sources have said so.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I also feel the need to add that the Index Astartes article never states that his hands were the only part of him recovered. It states that they found 'what remained of Rogal Dorn' then goes onto say that his hands are in stasis. I've always read that as he was pretty fucked up when they found him, his hands still being relatively entact however. This doesn't retcon what was said in Space Marine at all.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Those articles are really open to interpretation imo, they ain't done from an omnipresent view and in some cases are just wrong now. The Alpha Legion one had no mention of Omegon, the Raven Guard one didn't directly mention Corax's ability, Fulgrim wasn't corrupted by being drugged by Horus when he went to stop him, M'shen's death wasn't clear. I'm sure there are more those are just some off the top of my head atm. 

I truly believe that a lot more is going to be rehashed by the Black Library, especially the outcomes of the Primarchs. Might not be in the Horus Heresy series but eventually I think a lot of things will be changed. Dorn's supposed death is just the worse ending for a Primarch and I've forever put it down to the fact they didn't know what to do with him.


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## AgentOrange24 (Mar 25, 2010)

As much as I'd like them to return, I don't think GW will ever bring them back.

They're Gods from another age, and would be so out of place in 41,000 (it's safe to say mankind lasts until then) that they couldn't last.

Long story short, they just aren't fair anymore (if they ever were.)


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> I also feel the need to add that the Index Astartes article never states that his hands were the only part of him recovered. It states that they found 'what remained of Rogal Dorn' then goes onto say that his hands are in stasis. I've always read that as he was pretty fucked up when they found him, his hands still being relatively entact however. This doesn't retcon what was said in Space Marine at all.


Is that a direct quote? Because I recall it stating only his hands and weapons were found, not "what was left of dorn".


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

It says they recovered his remains and that his hand is now in amber. However "remains" could be anything.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yep direct quote. 

"They boarded the _Sword of Sacrilege_ before it could flee and recovered what remained of Rogal Dorn. His engraved skeletal hand continues to be maintained in stasis, their holliest icon, and serves as a constant reminder of the commitment expected of a Space Marine."

That to me says remains, and not in a good way. If it was literally just a hand i think they would have elaborated a bit more. But they don't, seems pretty final.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Its still out of date though and could easily be changed without much alteration.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

How is the Index Astartes article out of date? Or the book for that matter? Fluff doesn't have an expiry date, no matter how much people like it or not. It's not been retconned, the two sources don't contradict each other, therefore as far as the fluff goes, his skeleton is in amber and hands in stasis.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> How is the Index Astartes article out of date? Or the book for that matter? Fluff doesn't have an expiry date, no matter how much people like it or not. It's not been retconned, the two sources don't contradict each other, therefore as far as the fluff goes, his skeleton is in amber and hands in stasis.


They do contradict each other, as one states they have his entire skeleton found, the other states only his remains were found which purely and only his hands and weapons. Nothing about a skeleton what so ever.

Direct contradiction.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Hardly. The one states his skeleton is in stasis, the other says "what remained of Rogal Dorn" It doesn't say his body wasn't recovered at all, it mentions nothing of his weapons, just that his hand in stasis is one of their holiest relics. You know that a skeleton counts as remains right? Just because it doesn't specify it right there doesn't mean the didn't find it.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Hardly. The one states his skeleton is in stasis, the other says "what remained of Rogal Dorn" It doesn't say his body wasn't recovered at all, it mentions nothing of his weapons, just that his hand in stasis is one of their holiest relics. You know that a skeleton counts as remains right? Just because it doesn't specify it right there doesn't mean the didn't find it.


As I've said numerous times before and as others have stated, it is how you interpret it, doesn't make it canon. 

Also the direct quote has provided above us is 
"They boarded the Sword of Sacrilege before it could flee and recovered what remained of Rogal Dorn. His engraved skeletal hand continues to be maintained in stasis, their holliest icon, and serves as a constant reminder of the commitment expected of a Space Marine."

Now Interpret that they only found his skeletal hand, and if they had indeed found his entire skeleton and not just his hand, then his entire skeleton would be the prized icon. Why would they arbitrarily choose his hand to be the most prized icon above all else?


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Maybe the hand/s were the only bits left in a good enough condition to keep?

They found the remains but the rest of his body was in bits or pulverised by bolter or melta fire.
A bit like when someone gets hit by a train, there tends to be not a lot left so the doctor has to find the largest part, whatever it is, to declare that person dead.


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

Lux said:


> As I've said numerous times before and as others have stated, it is how you interpret it, doesn't make it canon.
> 
> Also the direct quote has provided above us is
> "They boarded the Sword of Sacrilege before it could flee and recovered what remained of Rogal Dorn. His engraved skeletal hand continues to be maintained in stasis, their holliest icon, and serves as a constant reminder of the commitment expected of a Space Marine."
> ...


Well, they are the Imperial Fists. It makes sense that they would preserve their primarch's fist to use as a symbol.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Precisely. The fist is their symbol, and the skeleton might not have been entirely intact


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Either way can we agree it's sucky way for a Primarch to go and will probably be changed?


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Either way can we agree it's sucky way for a Primarch to go and will probably be changed?


I doubt it will be changed outright. I'm guessing however that whatever it was on the bridge that did Dorn in will be revealed and it will be _awesome_. Primarchs have definitely received a power boost in the HH novels and so anything that can kill one will have to get a corresponding boost. However, if memory serves, they never did say what exactly was on the bridge/killed Dorn as none of his marines were with him at the time. Ergo no retcon is needed.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Yes although I favour the idea that he cut his hand off and then left his legion behind and ventured into the Eye of Terror or a variation of that.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Yes although I favour the idea that he cut his hand off and then left his legion behind and ventured into the Eye of Terror or a variation of that.


That'd be damnably strange and pretty out of character for Dorn. It would also make the 'remains' reference a bit odd. Can people really just not except that Primarchs can die?


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Given that the ideas of sacrifice and penance pretty big themes is regards to the Imperial Fists and Rogal Dorn i don't see him just up and leaving to the Eye of Terror. After Dorn's experience with the Emperor's internment, the Iron Cage, the Codex and the Scouring i can imagine him in a bad place mentally, and ready to just 'give up'. It's often been stressed just how badly he was effected by his perceived failure to the Emperor and all the above events, and how he didn't deal very well with outliving so many of his brothers. I think it's somewhat likely he 'let himself' be killed as it where, finally being in a situation where he could just let himself die. He had seen the other chapters cope without their primarchs, he knew it wouldn't break the Fists. The Imperium was a very different place now. 

Even if he didn't, going off into the Eye still doesn't make much sense. For one how would he get there being on the bridge of a Chaos ship in the middle of a hostile fleet? A ship which was later secured and boarded by the Fists who found his very remains.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

"Remains" can mean anything. I just find the idea of him being killed while taking the bridge of a battleship to be a bit pathetic and quite a disgrace considering his role within the story.

There's a number of ways to show penance, cutting off his own hand could be one, heading to the eye of terror another.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> "Remains" can mean anything. I just find the idea of him being killed while taking the bridge of a battleship to be a bit pathetic and quite a disgrace considering his role within the story.


Remains can be anything is kinda the point. It's vague about how much of him was intact at the time. If all they found was a single piece I'd think that'd be worth noting. 

Also, as I mentioned, we don't really know what he took the bridge from.



> There's a number of ways to show penance, cutting off his own hand could be one, heading to the eye of terror another.


Abandoning your duties does not seem like the sort of penance that the Fists are in to. Cutting off your hand? Sure. Going to the Eye alone? Maybe. Leaving in the middle of a fight without telling anyone? Not so much. Plus there's the issue of how he would actually leave that Rems mentioned.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> "Remains" can mean anything. I just find the idea of him being killed while taking the bridge of a battleship to be a bit pathetic and quite a disgrace considering his role within the story.
> 
> There's a number of ways to show penance, cutting off his own hand could be one, heading to the eye of terror another.


If they change it so that he cut his own hands off and then ran away it will officially become the worst bit of primarch related fluff, just past vulcan playing hide and seek with his chapter.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

MEQinc said:


> Remains can be anything is kinda the point. It's vague about how much of him was intact at the time. If all they found was a single piece I'd think that'd be worth noting.
> 
> Also, as I mentioned, we don't really know what he took the bridge from.
> 
> ...


Leman Russ, Vulkan and Corax all did the same, so it's not unheard of.

He could easily get off the ship, between him attacking the bridge and reinforcements showing up I'd say there was a gap in time.

The ship was also near the eye of terror to, so the distance wouldn't of been that much and if there was something on the bridge and the alternative is that Dorn was killed by it, then equally it to would have to get off some how to, so there was a way..either way lol.

Remains could mean his gear apart from his body.




Klaivex said:


> If they change it so that he cut his own hands off and then ran away it will officially become the worst bit of primarch related fluff, just past vulcan playing hide and seek with his chapter.


Worse than Corax quoting a poem and disappearing as well? Its not outside the realm of possibility for him to do it, especially if Leman Russ ups and leaves after getting drunk and Vulkan simply vanishing. I'd rather he did that than just die against some bods on a bridge.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Worse than Corax quoting a poem and disappearing as well? Its not outside the realm of possibility for him to do it, especially if Leman Russ ups and leaves after getting drunk and Vulkan simply vanishing. I'd rather he did that than just die against some bods on a bridge.


Yes... it would be worse.

I think heroically sacrificing himself to end a fairly important battle it MUCH better than cutting his hands off and running.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

It's not a very heroic battle though, at least not now and I don't think anything but another Primarch would do his death justice and even then I'd be annoyed.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

He effectively stopped a Black Crusade dead in its tracks, almost single handedly. I would say thats pretty damn heroic.

As others have said, cutting his hand off and somehow magically getting off the ship to go to the Eye of Terror is not only utterly retarded, but also highly out of character for Dorn.

Coraxs exit was good imo. He was an utterly broken man, more so than any of the other suviving primarchs i would argue. Almost his entire legions was annhilated in one battle, then when he tried to rebuild it he instead created monsters that he had to personally slay himself. His exit gave off the image of a broken and haunted character perfectly.

And whose to say Dorn wasn't killed by a daemon, which upon killing him was banished into the warp again, either from wounds from Dorn or lack of power. Where as Dorn magically comandeers another ship and manages to slip away without the rest of the fleet noticing? You know he had to board from another ship right? He didn't just magic himself aboard a chaos ship in the middle of space.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Leman Russ, Vulkan and Corax all did the same, so it's not unheard of.


Firstly, they didn't do the same thing. Secondly, what they did do was perfectly in character. 
Russ: Fealt the need to continue the fight, taking it to the enemy but he also recognized the importance of his legion to the continuance of the Imperium. So he goes off pretty much solo to bash heads. Russ has always been headstrong and violent, this is completely in character.
Corax: Can't deal with the losses his chapter suffered and the monsters he created and destroyed. Beleiving that the Primarchs are no longer necessary but recognizing that he can't simply commit suicide he vanishes, presumably to die. Corax has always been solitary, emotionally attached to his sons and calculating; this is completely in character.
Vulkan: I don't actually no much about so this is speculation. However Vulkan left his sons with knowledge of what he was doing and a mission. Likely he also beleived that he was no longer necessary to the Imperium and so went off solo, leaving a message of hope for his sons. Vulkan has always been an outsider to the Imperium; this is completely (or at least sufficiently) in character.

Contrast that with Dorn (under your revised fate): Can't deal with the losses his Chapter suffered (which were not so great as many others) and his own personal demons. So he cuts off his hand (which is exceedingly random) and then just disappears, in the middle/end of a Black Crusade, off an enemy ship, without telling anyone. Dorn has always been about duty; abandoning his (and he always felt his was defending the Imperium) is completely out of character.



> Remains could mean his gear apart from his body.


Remains at least heavily implies body parts. Further I take it you are now suggesting the following for a revised Dorn ending. He storms a bride, kills everybody, gets naked, cuts off his hand, jumps in a shuttle and blasts into the Eye. How does that even approach rational thought?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Angel of Blood said:


> He effectively stopped a Black Crusade dead in its tracks, almost single handedly. I would say thats pretty damn heroic.
> 
> As others have said, cutting his hand off and somehow magically getting off the ship to go to the Eye of Terror is not only utterly retarded, but also highly out of character for Dorn.
> 
> ...


Not magically, if you read the article it states the Imperial Fists boarded many of the ships and even turned their batteries on other chaos ships . It's easily possible that Dorn took another chaos ship with what ever fists he had left and disappeared into the Eye of Terror.




MEQinc said:


> Firstly, they didn't do the same thing. Secondly, what they did do was perfectly in character.
> Russ: Fealt the need to continue the fight, taking it to the enemy but he also recognized the importance of his legion to the continuance of the Imperium. So he goes off pretty much solo to bash heads. Russ has always been headstrong and violent, this is completely in character.
> Corax: Can't deal with the losses his chapter suffered and the monsters he created and destroyed. Beleiving that the Primarchs are no longer necessary but recognizing that he can't simply commit suicide he vanishes, presumably to die. Corax has always been solitary, emotionally attached to his sons and calculating; this is completely in character.
> Vulkan: I don't actually no much about so this is speculation. However Vulkan left his sons with knowledge of what he was doing and a mission. Likely he also beleived that he was no longer necessary to the Imperium and so went off solo, leaving a message of hope for his sons. Vulkan has always been an outsider to the Imperium; this is completely (or at least sufficiently) in character.
> ...


 My "revised fate" would go something like this:

1. Dorn boards chaos ships teleporting from one to another sowing chaos and confusion within the fleet.
2. Dorn boards the _Sword of Sacrilege _ and eventually reaches the bridge, where along with a librarian they enter to find a powerful figure.
3. Now then this figure could be anyone, but I suggest that they do battle, a lot of Dorn's retinue is dispatched and Dorn possibly loses his hand in the process. Also his weapons and other equipment apart from his armour of course, are either destroyed or disable or removed from his possession.
4. Dorn defeats the powerful figure by making him flee or if it's a daemon banishes him. 
5. Dorn realises the rest of the ships crew is coming to take it back, so he sabotages the controls, and teleports onto a ship held by the fists.
6. Figuring things like this will never end or, wants revenge Dorn sets off with what's left of his retinue into the Eye of Terror.

That's a brief depiction of what could happen imo, its within the realms of the original IA article. Equally you could swap having his hand cut off by the figure with Dorn removing it himself as a symbolic memento to the rest of his chapter.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> You know he had to board from another ship right? He didn't just magic himself aboard a chaos ship in the middle of space.


Teleporter.

@WoT: IMO nothing should pose a threat to Dorn except another Primarch so I don't know if they can retcon one in since most of them were doing their own thing at various points in time. Throwing in a random greater daemon is a cop-out.

The whole Dorn going rambo mode on some random chaos ship and his Imperial Fists only finding a hand screams old 80's fluff that begs to be rewritten seeing as how the perspective people had of Primarchs back then is completely different now.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Nothing should pose a threat to Dorn except another Primarch so I don't know if they can retcon one in since most of them were doing their own thing at various points in time. Throwing in a random greater daemon is a cop-out.


Exactly, I totally agree.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

And yet, Horus, the greatest of them all was taken out by merely an empowered man with a powerful sword. Fulgrim was taken over by a daemon, willingly or not is regardless, still happened. Angron was taken out by Grey Knights. Magnus was taken out by a Wolf Lord and Bjorn. Mortarion has a name carved into his ehart by Draigo(retarded, maybe, still happened.) Sanguinius had his legs broken by Ka'banha, and could have been killed by it aswell, but for one reason or another it didn't. The Lion was taken out by Luther, empowered by chaos maybe, but still not even a full astartes warrior before. 

So many of the Primarchs have been defeated, nigh on killed and in alot of cases, spared by individuals who weren't primarchs. Not unreasonable at all, so theirs that right out the window. And we have absoloutely no evidence what the traitor primarchs were doing at that time. Nothing. Retconning one in wouldn't be a challenge in any kind of way.

The idea of Dorn leaving is still completely out of character as MEQ has already explained. The idea of him leaving and allowing his Sons to believe he is dead by leaving remains is also idiotic. 

And not to get too pedantic, but if you say you have found someones remains, it is in almost all cases to say they are dead and you've found whats left of them. If i went into someones room and found his hand along with some clothes and a baseball bat, i wouldn't tell people i found his remains. The very expression of the term is to mean dead.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Teleporter.
> 
> @WoT: IMO nothing should pose a threat to Dorn except another Primarch so I don't know if they can retcon one in since most of them were doing their own thing at various points in time. Throwing in a random greater daemon is a cop-out.
> 
> The whole Dorn going rambo mode on some random chaos ship and his Imperial Fists only finding a hand screams old 80's fluff that begs to be rewritten seeing as how the perspective people had of Primarchs back then is completely different now.


He wasn't solo, he had Imperial Fists with him, it's written the chief Librarian commended their souls to the Emperor before they stormed the bridge.



Angel of Blood said:


> And yet, Horus, the greatest of them all was taken out by merely an empowered man with a powerful sword. Fulgrim was taken over by a daemon, willingly or not is regardless, still happened. Angron was taken out by Grey Knights. Magnus was taken out by a Wolf Lord and Bjorn. Mortarion has a name carved into his ehart by Draigo(retarded, maybe, still happened.) Sanguinius had his legs broken by Ka'banha, and could have been killed by it aswell, but for one reason or another it didn't. The Lion was taken out by Luther, empowered by chaos maybe, but still not even a full astartes warrior before.
> 
> So many of the Primarchs have been defeated, nigh on killed and in alot of cases, spared by individuals who weren't primarchs. Not unreasonable at all, so theirs that right out the window. And we have absoloutely no evidence what the traitor primarchs were doing at that time. Nothing. Retconning one in wouldn't be a challenge in any kind of way.
> 
> ...


The Emperor is not just an Empowered man, he's something a lot more. Angron, Magnus and Mortartion where all daemons at this stage, I maintain becoming a Daemon Prince weakens you in the long run since although you can't die, you can be banished and in each case strong anti daemon things where involved. Bjorn had runes all over him and the fact Magnus had to possess someone who wasn't very strong psychically may of also added to his apparent weakness.

I don't think it's out of character. Dorn was against the separation of the legions into chapters, he felt it weakened the Imperium rather than strengthen it. He'd used the Iron Cage incident as a penance for his perceived failure, he disappearance would be no different than the other primarchs walking off. Dorn was probably the second primarch most in touch with his humanity (first being Vulkan) and if Vulkan can walk away then I think Dorn could, both had a sense of honour and loyalty but Vulkan did it, why not Dorn?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Teleporter.


I was refering to the fact that another Imperial ship would need to be present for him to board the Sword, whether it was pods or teleportation. My point being they would surely notice Dorn slipping off in another ship.



Words_of_Truth said:


> The Emperor is not just an Empowered man, he's something a lot more. Angron, Magnus and Mortartion where all daemons at this stage, I maintain becoming a Daemon Prince weakens you in the long run since although you can't die, you can be banished and in each case strong anti daemon things where involved. Bjorn had runes all over him and the fact Magnus had to possess someone who wasn't very strong psychically may of also added to his apparent weakness.


I was refering to Tenba, not the Emperor. Horus should have been dead, but the dark gods daved him, point still is Horus was mortally wounded and brought to death by a man.

Regardless, of their daemon status, they were still killed by individuals who don't even begin to approach the power of a primarch.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

An alien sword felled him not a man. He just said a word and off it went.

And we don't know what would of happened if they just let him be. I've always thought that a Primarch's physiology makes them essentially immortal (cutting off their head being an exception).

And yeah, all the traitor Primarchs you mentioned were in Daemon mode and thus are subject to being able to be banished and all that. 

Random but perhaps the chaos powers let Draigo carve out his initials on mortarian's heart as a way of punishing him or something?


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Angel of Blood said:


> I was refering to the fact that another Imperial ship would need to be present for him to board the Sword, whether it was pods or teleportation. My point being they would surely notice Dorn slipping off in another ship.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They where using the chaos ships own teleporters and while it does state thunderhawks where also used, I imagine since the chaos fleet was still active when the reinforcements showed up, I doubt missing a single chaos ship making off would of made much fuss to any loyalist ships near by.

You can't disregard their daemon status, being a Primarch means nothing when you become limited by the boundaries of being a daemon.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Actually the latest fluff regarding Dorn's Death (courtesy of _Deathwatch: Rites of Battle_) is that Dorn's body was recovered by his Chief Librarian once the main IF fleet arrived- so a bit of a retcon on the Librarian front- in a scene akin to Dorn carrying the Emperors body off the _Vengeful Spirit_.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

But Tenba was a man all the same, with a nasty sword. Not hard to have another similar weapon take down Dorn.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

The emp was almost killed by an ork so i don't think it is a stretch to say a primarch can be killed by a hoard of chaos empowered soldiers during a desperate last stand.

And is all technology in the 40k universe voice activated because i bet its hard to program coordinates without hands...


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Actually the latest fluff regarding Dorn's Death (courtesy of _Deathwatch: Rites of Battle_) is that Dorn's body was recovered by his Chief Librarian once the main IF fleet arrived- so a bit of a retcon on the Librarian front- in a scene akin to Dorn carrying the Emperors body off the _Vengeful Spirit_.


Ta Baron. Case closed!


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I don't think it's out of character. Dorn was against the separation of the legions into chapters, he felt it weakened the Imperium rather than strengthen it. He'd used the Iron Cage incident as a penance for his perceived failure, he disappearance would be no different than the other primarchs walking off. Dorn was probably the second primarch most in touch with his humanity (first being Vulkan) and if Vulkan can walk away then I think Dorn could, both had a sense of honour and loyalty but Vulkan did it, why not Dorn?


I'll reiterate again, the other Primarchs did not 'walk off' nor did they simply vanish.

Dorn and Vulkan's senses of honour and loyalty were very different. 

Vulkan loves people but also beleives in strength through pain, if he thought his disappearance would cause his sons/the Imperium to grow stronger it is totally in character for him to leave them. Indeed he's set it up like a quest. "Prove yourselves worthy and I will return to you," is the gist of the message he left for them. 

Dorn on the other hand is bound to the rules, his honour forces him to follow whether he agrees or not. He didn't like the idea of Chapters, yet he still followed it. He didn't like the idea of fighting his brother, yet he still did it. He might not have liked the path the Imperium was taking but simply walking off is *abandoning his duty* something Dorn has never ever been shown to do.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Is a Fantasy Flight Games book considered canon? It could also of been misinterpreted since the IA article says the Chief Librarian commended their souls during his last report.

All Primarchs had a sense of honour, I don't think Dorn's was as strong as it was during his time with the Emperor though.

@ Klaivex: Dorn only lost one hand and as I said he probably wasn't alone when he disappeared.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Is All Primarchs had a sense of honour, I don't think Dorn's was as strong as it was during his time with the Emperor though.


All the Primarchs had a different sense of honourable. Dorn's honour was in following the rules and doing his duty. His duty was the defence of the Imperium. He failed to defend his father, he may have beleived he failed to defend the Imperium at it's most crucial moment. However there is little to no evidence suggesting that Dorn was/would be willing to walk away from that duty simply because... he could (I'm assuming that's the logic your implying as I can't see any other).



> @ Klaivex: Dorn only lost one hand and as I said he probably wasn't alone when he disappeared.


So how exactly did the Imperial Fists not notice that a bunch of their marines were missing, in addition to their Primarch. That sort of thing would bare investigating in my mind.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

MEQinc said:


> All the Primarchs had a different sense of honourable. Dorn's honour was in following the rules and doing his duty. His duty was the defence of the Imperium. He failed to defend his father, he may have beleived he failed to defend the Imperium at it's most crucial moment. However there is little to no evidence suggesting that Dorn was/would be willing to walk away from that duty simply because... he could (I'm assuming that's the logic your implying as I can't see any other).


His sense of honour brought about the idea of leading his chapter into the Iron Cage despite knowing that the Iron Warriors had made a big trap.
If Corax was bad then I'd suggest Dorn was equally bad. 



> So how exactly did the Imperial Fists not notice that a bunch of their marines were missing, in addition to their Primarch. That sort of thing would bare investigating in my mind.


Things happen, the whole sentence of his passing is summed up with one sentence in the IA article, they could of thought he'd been blown into loads of pieces when in fact it was the bodies of dead Imperial Fists. 

Remember according to the article the traitor fleet supposedly survived up until the reinforcements turned up, many things happen in the fog of war and a single sentence taken from a subjective rather than objective or omnipresent view could mean anything from being exactly that up to being completely wrong.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> His sense of honour brought about the idea of leading his chapter into the Iron Cage despite knowing that the Iron Warriors had made a big trap.
> If Corax was bad then I'd suggest Dorn was equally bad.


1) Leading your men into a trap =/= creating literal monsters out of your children in a desperate attempt to recoup your losses and assist your brothers but winding up having to slaughter them yourself to keep it a secret. Dorn's pain is the regret of a commander who made a mistake. Corax's is the pain of a father who corrupted his children and then killed them. Not the same. Plus, as previously mentioned Corax has always been a more private and secretive individual than Dorn.

2) I'm not sure Dorn actually ever fealt that the Iron Cage was a bad idea and it seems unlikely that he knew it was a trap (or at least a trap on the scale that it was). Certainly he would have regretted the deaths however he also caused massive casualties in the Iron Warriors, ultimately drove them from the region and got some much needed catharsis for him and his men.

3) Just because his honour led to the death of his men (and in many ways it was more personal vengeance than honour) is not really a compelling reason to through that honour completely out the window. Dorn was a Primarch, to suggest that he had not lost men before is completely rediculous. To suggest that he would completely alter his personality and code of beliefs as a result gives Perturabo waay to much credit.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

MEQinc said:


> 1) Leading your men into a trap =/= creating literal monsters out of your children in a desperate attempt to recoup your losses and assist your brothers but winding up having to slaughter them yourself to keep it a secret. Dorn's pain is the regret of a commander who made a mistake. Corax's is the pain of a father who corrupted his children and then killed them. Not the same. Plus, as previously mentioned Corax has always been a more private and secretive individual than Dorn.
> 
> 2) I'm not sure Dorn actually ever fealt that the Iron Cage was a bad idea and it seems unlikely that he knew it was a trap (or at least a trap on the scale that it was). Certainly he would have regretted the deaths however he also caused massive casualties in the Iron Warriors, ultimately drove them from the region and got some much needed catharsis for him and his men.
> 
> 3) Just because his honour led to the death of his men (and in many ways it was more personal vengeance than honour) is not really a compelling reason to through that honour completely out the window. Dorn was a Primarch, to suggest that he had not lost men before is completely rediculous. To suggest that he would completely alter his personality and code of beliefs as a result gives Perturabo waay to much credit.


There's a whole section in the IA about the Iron Cage from the fists point of view. It states Rogal Dorn declared they would symbolically enter the pain glove together and knowing after already creating successor chapters there would be to many left over he devoted them all to the fight with the Iron Warriors. 

Further ahead it states that Dorn outlived many of his brothers each loss saddening him greatly, so he was probably one of the last ones around (Vulkan being the last) so to me that adds more to the idea he disappeared into the eye, shortly after Corax decided to up and leave I may add.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Is a Fantasy Flight Games book considered canon?


Yes.

Dorn is dead.

The main source I can remember which states his entire skeleton was recovered was _Space Marine_ by Ian Watson. The IA article also essentially confirms it without explicity stating it (random/crazy theories aside).


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Ah well, it could still of been interpreted wrong imo. I won't give up hope that he survived though


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> There's a whole section in the IA about the Iron Cage from the fists point of view. It states Rogal Dorn declared they would symbolically enter the pain glove together and knowing after already creating successor chapters there would be to many left over he devoted them all to the fight with the Iron Warriors.


This actually weakens your argument for his tortured state of mind. Not only does it mean that he doesn't view the Iron Cage as a mistake or a failure but it also suggests that he comes out of the Cage better off (mentally) than he went in. He has clensed himself (and his sons) of their past failures to prepare them for the challenges of their future. He has remade himself. Why then would he run off? It seems highly illogical to me.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Why would Corax or Leman russ run off? Nothing is logical about how the Primarchs disappeared. Could of received a psychic message from the Emperor for all we know, nothing is logical.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> Why would Corax or Leman russ run off? Nothing is logical about how the Primarchs disappeared. Could of received a psychic message from the Emperor for all we know, nothing is logical.


Well I've tried to explain the logic behind the others.



MEQinc said:


> Russ: Fealt the need to continue the fight, taking it to the enemy but he also recognized the importance of his legion to the continuance of the Imperium. So he goes off pretty much solo to bash heads. Russ has always been headstrong and violent, this is completely in character.
> Corax: Can't deal with the losses his chapter suffered and the monsters he created and destroyed. Beleiving that the Primarchs are no longer necessary but recognizing that he can't simply commit suicide he vanishes, presumably to die. Corax has always been solitary, emotionally attached to his sons and calculating; this is completely in character.
> Vulkan: I don't actually no much about so this is speculation. However Vulkan left his sons with knowledge of what he was doing and a mission. Likely he also beleived that he was no longer necessary to the Imperium and so went off solo, leaving a message of hope for his sons. Vulkan has always been an outsider to the Imperium; this is completely (or at least sufficiently) in character.


Logic can be found for *some* of the Primarchs to leave the Imperium. I would even beleive that a logic could be created for Dorn to have left under different circumstances. I do not beleive that a logical reason can be found for Dorn to have left under the apparent circumstances of his 'disapperance'. Any re-write created to have him vanish would be, at best, an unnecessary and faulty retcon. 

Dorn is one of the few Primarchs to have truely sacrifised himself for the Imperium. Having him still be alive dilutes that beyond a level that I am willing to accept.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I have to side with Child-of-the-Emperor, Angel of Blood, etc.

The Chapter is called the *Imperial Fists*, after all. If you're going to display a part of your Primarch, you could do a lot worse than his *hand*. In the English language, when someone says "we recovered what was left of him", the insinuation/implication points directly to death. If, on the other hand, he had written "only a hand was found," then something far different is being hinted at.

Beyond that, though, I'm surprised no one has tried to eliminate the "legend" of the Primarchs when musing about their fates. By that, I mean trying to rise above what was added artificially as tales expanded and changed over time.

Did Leman Russ really promise to come back in time for the Wolf Time, for instance? Or is that just Bjorn weaving a myth for a Chapter that would increasingly become steeped in its own legends (compare the Vlka Fenryka and their attitudes versus the Space Wolves of the 41st millennium) in an attempt to boost morale?

I'd posit a far worse fate could be in store for Russ. Remember, he wasn't the brawling, hearty warrior he pretended to be for outsiders. He was a cunning, ultimately ruthless man (though also capable of empathy, as shown in his plea to Magnus). Russ could very well have departed for a mission (to end the Thousand Sons, perhaps, or something wholly different) only for things to go terribly wrong in the Eye of Terror. Isn't there a reference to his arms and armour being found there? That might not necessarily imply death... but mutation?

Similarly, the Lion is being watched over by the Keepers in the Dark. The Horus Heresy novels hint at a connection between them and the Cabal (IIRC, through a reference that group's name). It may very well be that the Lion's return will have nothing to do with "the Dark Angels' time of greatest need" or with Cypher getting to Terra. The Watchers might only deign to release him if the Galaxy truly needs another superhuman demigod warlord again. Or maybe Cypher (who had an agenda that was neither the Lion's nor necessarily Luther's in "Fallen Angels") is an agent for the Keepers and the Lion's return is tied both to speculation steeped in myth (the rumors about Cypher and the Lion Sword) and Xenos agenda. Maybe the Lion will return, but as a believer in the same agenda Alpharius and Omegon bought off on.

What about Vulkan? What if the Salamanders are being set up for the biggest disappointment ever? What if their Primarch was just nuked and they're salvaging relics to satisfy a false prophecy cooked up by well-meaning but ignorant officers of their Chapter at a time when the Imperium was becoming increasingly religious?

There was a whole lot of fighting going on following Isstvan V and the end of the Scouring. For Vulkan to make it off Isstvan, he would need to be conscious. The idea that he would be subsequently incapacitated for decades - if not centuries - following this event is weak at best, IMHO. And absent that, he would have no excuse to not contact his people or the Imperium in general. The Promethean philosophy being used to that effect would be a massively bad move, I think... a terrible cop-out.

Khan either is or isn't dead. There's not much mythology built around his disappearance.

Corax is also pretty straightforward. For the sake of his character, though, I hope the whole "Nevermore" bit _is_ added legend, though.

Cheers,
P.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Ooh, i like your interpretation Phoebeus. That's a very interesting angle to approach the Primarch's fates from. Given the Imperium's superstitious nature and the Heresy firmly enshrined as this 'time of legend' where demi gods strolled the earth it seems very suitable. It's also quite grim and nihilistic, which is nice given this is 40k. The idea that some of the Astartes most sacred/ inviolable beliefs are a lie/a delusion is delicious. Consider me an adherent.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Glad to be of service!

... even if "service", in this case, entails making the grim universe of 40k yet more depressing. :biggrin:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> I have to side with Child-of-the-Emperor, Angel of Blood, etc.
> 
> The Chapter is called the *Imperial Fists*, after all. If you're going to display a part of your Primarch, you could do a lot worse than his *hand*. In the English language, when someone says "we recovered what was left of him", the insinuation/implication points directly to death. If, on the other hand, he had written "only a hand was found," then something far different is being hinted at.
> 
> ...


:goodpost: An insightful post by _P_ as always.

It is only natural that legends and cults would arise around beings such as the Primarchs after their death/fall. In an increasingly religious and superstitious Imperium, human nature dictates that tales would be added, fabricated and outright changed to suit the teller. The purpose of the embellishment (when it was conscious) would have probably most commonly revolved around initiating a sense of hope. But it is a certainty that over ten millennia the tales concerning the Primarchs would be at the very least near-unrecognisable to the actual events they're concerned with.



Phoebus said:


> In the English language, when someone says "we recovered what was left of him", the insinuation/implication points directly to death. If, on the other hand, he had written "only a hand was found," then something far different is being hinted at.


This is certainly the case. The wording ensures the implication of Dorn being dead.

Also, in regards to _why_ the Primarchs left, their time was up and they realised this. They had forged the Imperium with their own blood for humanity not for themselves. They were created for that purpose. The Imperium was passed over to humanity, they were no longer needed. Especially considering the rapidly changing nature of the Imperium, cults and religion became commonplace, the Emperor had ascended to the Golden Throne, the traitors had been banished to the Eye. The realm of men would soon entirely revolve around the Imperial Cult and worship of the Emperor, and merely surviving rather than conquering the stars. The Primarchs were relics of an age that had long since passed. 

Also, it is important to note that the Primarchs would have probably recognised the issues they would cause by remaining within the realm of men. With custodianship and rulership of the Empire passed into the hands of mortal men, how much conflict could it have potentially caused if the sons of the God-Emperor remained among men? They would have been worshipped as gods themselves, whole armies and civilisations would have willingly died at their word. This is exactly the kind of situation Guilliman's post-Heresy reforms were intended to prevent. Beings of such immense power and influence couldn't have remained in an Imperium ruled by mortals. And thus they left and passed into myth and legend.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Thanks for the good words, CotE!


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

To be honest I think the chapters of the Astartes are more effecient and mission capable now then they were before. The traitors and the loyalists. The primarchs if anything held the legions from realizing their true operational potential. From their behavioral disorders to not giving a crap about their men I think the primarchs (cool as they are as characters) significantly weakened the Astartes, for that matter the imperium. If you take out the primarchs you really do have the heresy not happen.

Don't get me wrong I like most of the primarchs but I think tactically 20 generals is a bad idea. After the first 2 got sanctioned maybe they should have made better provisions in the code of conduct. However the Command-In-Chief leaving the whole thing withougt a grace period to an emotionally unstable demi-god may wasn't the best move. All of them had behavioral disorders which goes to the fact that if they are the genetic spawn of the emperor separated into 20 beings, how fucked up was the Emp?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Deadeye776,

Where to start? 

First off, a quick caveat. The division of Legions to Chapters is thematic. It's a take-off from the evolution of the Roman Empire. During its phases of expansion and conquest, the Romans fielded armies of Legions numbering as many as tens of thousands of legionnaires and auxilliaries. During its phases of consolidation, though, and especially during the latter (and deteriorating) stages, Rome was served by far smaller Legions of a thousand (or so) men. The task of such units was to protect the frontier and act as a reactive force to invading forces, brigands, revolts, etc. Sound familiar?

Where better and worse are concerned, you have to take the task at hand into consideration. The Romans broke up those Legions into smaller, almost cohort-size elements, because there wasn't much more known terrain to conquer, they were facing serious internal conflicts, and they couldn't really trust their generals to wield large armies. On the flip side, though, they never considered invading places with just a thousand men.

Besides all that, I think you're ignoring the fact that there were thousands of Expeditionary Fleets, and that many - if not most - of the Astartes Chapters, Great Companies, Grand Companies, Fellowships, etc., fought their wars on their own. It's not as if the concept of the Chapter was unique by the time Roboute Guilliman got around to writing his Codex. His aim, simply put, was to ensure the command chain that allowed for multiple Chapters to be commanded by one man.

Code of conduct for Primarchs? Who says there wasn't one? We are not exactly privy to every conversation they've had, and I wager a good reason for that is to preserve the aura of mystery around that period. At the end of the day, though, I don't see how a new tablet of rules will help when the primordial warp-gods representing the negative psychic mirror of humanity try to corrupt you while you're lying poinsoned and comatose in a sorcery-enabled dream-realm. I mean, at the end of the day, before getting stabbed by the Anatheme and getting manipulated by Erebus & co., Horus was not at all emotionally unstable.

As for the other Primarchs, what of it? Those who were obviously screwed up are demonstrably the products of their environment. Their issues are not reflective of the Emperor's own mental health. You can question the Emperor's motivations* for retaining them despite their problems,** but no one said that his intent was to unify Humanity through peaceful means.

Cheers,
P.

* Personally, I think the Emperor was gambling. He knew Chaos was pissed and now moving against him, hence the Primarchs being scattered. Time was of the essence, so he gambled that he could complete his gambit with a few bent or broken Primarchs as opposed to getting rid of them altogether.

** And really, only Angron, Curze, and Mortarion were outwardly putting off "Danger!" signs. Lorgar hardly appeared to be a threat, Magnus both valuable and benign, Perturabo was just introverted (which is hardly behavioral disorder), etc.


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

You should really get your hands on _The Outcast Dead_, imo it's the best source of info on how the Emperor regarded his Primarchs and the whole Heresy out of every book so far.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Unlike you, I need to wait another month or two! *shakes fist*

:wink:


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Sorry I forgot it wasn't out yet :/


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Words of truth could you post or pm me, on what the book reveals in regards to each of the primarchs and the emperor ?


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