# The things that make us cringe



## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

There are many things in this 40k that just make people as a fan cringe. It could be something like Draigo who is so OP, or it could be something that is so minor it only bothers you. 

Write down the things that make you wish they never existed.

I'll start

No engineering degrees: There is an entire cult devoted to machines and science, they can make some cool tanks, weapons, machines, but dreadnought armor forget it! there skitarii can even wear something that is "like" terminator armor, but isn't. This right here bothers me so much, I just pretend it doesn't exist in the 40k world.

bolters design: It's too outdated looking, I'd prefer it to be bigger and look a little more hefty, it looks like an mp5 in size comparison on a Space Marine. Also it needs a stock. You shoot a rifle without a stock and tell me how accurate you are. 

1000 men strong: The size of a chapter never bothered me before, but a post on here talked about how another 0 should be added to make it 10,000 marines, and the old legions should have had 800,000+ marines. It made so much sense, and I cringe a little bit every time I hear about only 1000 marines. That's really not a big number at all, and even 10,000 in the grand scheme of things isn't big either.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

The last part I actually think is interesting. For me, the way that 40K armies work and the arsenal of weapons I don't think chapters really are that strong to take worlds. To me the Chapters have seemed more believable taking simple objectives or even city main points. I think we will see more Imperial Guard and Space Marine and Chaos Marines and Cultist interactive combat roles. 

Its just hard to believe that chapters would simply deploy their strength against an army with many heavy and anti armor weapons. Thats just pure astartes casualties. The depiction of how the Black Legions use cultists and daemons seems to make more sense in terms of which armies have been more successful.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

CJay said:


> No engineering degrees: There is an entire cult devoted to machines and science, they can make some cool tanks, weapons, machines, but dreadnought armor forget it! there skitarii can even wear something that is "like" terminator armor, but isn't. This right here bothers me so much, I just pretend it doesn't exist in the 40k world.


This is part of the grim darkness of 40k. Mankind holds itself back by being a superstitious race afraid of change. If innovation was not so shunned, the Imperium would be doing much better. 



CJay said:


> bolters design: It's too outdated looking, I'd prefer it to be bigger and look a little more hefty, it looks like an mp5 in size comparison on a Space Marine. Also it needs a stock. You shoot a rifle without a stock and tell me how accurate you are.


The bolter has never been described as an accurate weapon. There's a reason its limited to the same effective range as most assault rifles despite it being significantly heavier. 



CJay said:


> 1000 men strong: The size of a chapter never bothered me before, but a post on here talked about how another 0 should be added to make it 10,000 marines, and the old legions should have had 800,000+ marines. It made so much sense, and I cringe a little bit every time I hear about only 1000 marines. That's really not a big number at all, and even 10,000 in the grand scheme of things isn't big either.


This is a deliberate design by the Codex Astartes to limit the power and influence that each chapter has and prevent another large scale heresy. Space Marines are not armies, they are supplements and strike forces, most often used alongside other Imperial forces in campaigns.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> This is part of the grim darkness of 40k. Mankind holds itself back by being a superstitious race afraid of change. If innovation was not so shunned, the Imperium would be doing much better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know the reasoning why, I've read the fluff reasoning, I just don't give a shit. I can have my opinion and this is it, the reasoning is BS to me and I roll my eyes whenever those 3 aspects are in my face.

Purpose of this was to vent, not for everyone to try and gang up and prove each other wrong. This is personal preference.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

CJay said:


> Purpose of this was to vent, not for everyone to try and gang up and prove each other wrong. This is personal preference.


I wasn't sure. But it's fine.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

CJay said:


> You shoot a rifle without a stock and tell me how accurate you are.


This never bothered me because of how the gyrojet round should work if it panned out. Plus the sheer size and super-human strength of a Space Marine combined with the incredibly advanced systems of power armor, I see no issue with an accurate bolter.
~~~~~~~~~

As to what makes me cringe? Chapter losses for fairly routine operations. It's brutal when a company loses 2-3 men to clear out an orbital station filled with heretics armed with las and auto guns. This doesn't make sense to me.

Also how easily Space Marines die. Losing a limb should barely slow them down, and only for a moment. A sword thrust anywhere not in the head shouldn't incapacitate them. Then even if they are critically injured, they should fall into a sus-membrane coma to be resistated (or finished, depending on who wins).

And then the whole depiction of very human 40k Space Marine usually urks me. You don't take children from the worst hellholes in the Imperium, indoctrinate them with nothing but loyalty to the Imperium, hatred for its enemies, and how to murder those enemies, and come out with a relatively normal human being.


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## LordNecross (Aug 14, 2014)

How Matt Ward Handled the Necrons, instead of the original writers fleshing it out further.

Seriously it would have been easy to keep old fluff and still get the NewCrons we have without getting rid of the C'Tan as influential. Them being so underpowerd in TT was always bothersome(compared to the fluff that is) so the new fluff makes it better for TT, I just am irked by how much was retconned.

Also screw the whole piggy backing on the Webway system, this pissed me off the most. Original Crons just appeared where they want to, why would a race that master science need the warp? They wouldn't. I felt like this was meant to pander towards limiting space travel in the material verse and force everything to rely on the warp :/ which is ghey.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

LordNecross said:


> Also screw the whole piggy backing on the Webway system, this pissed me off the most. Original Crons just appeared where they want to, why would a race that master science need the warp? They wouldn't. I felt like this was meant to pander towards limiting space travel in the material verse and force everything to rely on the warp :/ which is ghey.


I agree with this. I actually like what they did with the c'tan, but taking away their established FTL ability seemed like much too limiting a factor for a race that surpassed even the Old Ones in scientific prowess.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Speaking of the Necrons, the whole humanizing thing is a disaster in my point of view. I liked it more when they were soulless death machines out to harvest the souls of all sentient life. That was cool and frightening.

Changing them to a bunch of B-villains killing and conquering on their so very human and flawed whims seems so much of a...cop out.

I rather they introduced a new race of technological aristocrats. Or hell, just had the Dark Eldar fill in that niche.


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## LordNecross (Aug 14, 2014)

I don't mind what happened to the C'Tan, I just think it should have been a more recent event, as it kind of retconns alot of the Deceiver's shenanigans in the Imperium.


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## LordNecross (Aug 14, 2014)

hailene said:


> Speaking of the Necrons, the whole humanizing thing is a disaster in my point of view. I liked it more when they were soulless death machines out to harvest the souls of all sentient life. That was cool and frightening.
> 
> Changing them to a bunch of B-villains killing and conquering on their so very human and flawed whims seems so much of a...cop out.
> 
> I rather they introduced a new race of technological aristocrats. Or hell, just had the Dark Eldar fill in that niche.


I was devastated as well, but It grew on me. I however absolute hate them being space Tomb Kings.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I like the Necron fluff changes. You want your dynasty to be Oldcrons? Easy, they have an unusually high proportion of robit men with the Destroyer Plague. But you want them to be TK in space? Equally easy. Necrons can now have depth and personality if you want, rather than being robot Tyranids.

Personally, it really gets my back up when people complain about Draigo's fluff. I'll admit it's not brilliantly executed, but it's a really cool concept. The whole Mortarion's Heart story? I'd have put money on Draigo winning that if the Codex had simply said 'Draigo charged the Daemon Primarch Mortarion when suddenly the cameraman fell on his ass and nobody knows what happened next'. I won't go into it here, because I went into it there.

I don't think there's that much in the actual 40k fluff that really bothers me - not a fan of how the whole Crimson Path/Great Waaagh! stuff is coming about in the 7th ed books, but only because I can't see a way of it being advanced/solved outside of a disappointing deus ex machina. I mean, I really liked the bit in the Ork book about how Gathrog and Degruk are locked in a huge war that, if one of the Warbosses wins or they team up, could quite possibly defeat the 13th Black Crusade. However, while the event in itself would be great, I'm not sure how it would be dealt with - the nearest I came up with would be that Ghazghkull shows up and does his thing by beating down on Boss Gathrog and Boss Degruk and combines their Waaagh!s, defeats the 13th Black Crusade, but the Orks taking over the containment of said Crusade gives Cadia a much-needed respite period; the Orks get whittled down fighting the Black Legion, leaving the Imperium (and probably Eldar) to come in afterwards and mop up what's left. That falls into the Humanity, Fuck Yeah trope though, and while seeing Ghazghkull fight Abaddon would be crazy-awesome, the aftermath would be quite disappointing (on the other hand, it would diffuse the current 'everything is going to shit and there is no possible way it can ever be fixed' over-grimdarkness of 40k).

Rambling much?


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

MidnightSun said:


> Personally, it really gets my back up when people complain about Draigo's fluff. I'll admit it's not brilliantly executed, but it's a really cool concept. The whole Mortarion's Heart story? I'd have put money on Draigo winning that if the Codex had simply said 'Draigo charged the Daemon Primarch Mortarion when suddenly the cameraman fell on his ass and nobody knows what happened next'. I won't go into it here, because I went into it there.


Unfortunately this particular piece of fluff is the one thing that not only makes me cringe, but puts me off GKs and Matt Ward. He may not have written it, but he approved it, do he gets the blame. It is the single stupidest piece of fanfic I've ever read. If I read it on a forum I would assume it was written by a 12 year old with a hard on for his new toy soldiers. 

On the whole though, having been into 40k since Rogue Trader, I've learned to ride with the retcons, knowing it'll probably all come full circle anyway.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

CJay said:


> 1000 men strong: The size of a chapter never bothered me before, but a post on here talked about how another 0 should be added to make it 10,000 marines, and the old legions should have had 800,000+ marines. It made so much sense, and I cringe a little bit every time I hear about only 1000 marines. That's really not a big number at all, and even 10,000 in the grand scheme of things isn't big either.


Absolutely agree. Considering the massive casualties space marines take in every mission in the great crusade (as described in the FW books) and the fact that the legions and equipment was better back then and they were led by the Primarchs I'm astonished that Roboute Guilliman thought that 1000 marines was a suitable size for the future Chapters.. 

Given the fact that the Chapters are now used as pure assault forces or last ditch defence forces rather than armies, both of these are where you take the majority of casualties and therefore the Chapters would simply die out as you wouldn't be able to replace the losses you'd take quickly enough. All the better (in my opinion) novels describe how many casualties the Chapters take and the Imperial Armour books also show the Chapters taking large casualties (such as in the Badab wars and the siege of Vraks books).

If the Chapters continually take such casualties (and considering I doubt they'd turn their backs on a situation where they were needed) they would be ground down in no time.

If anything needs retconning it's the 1000 limit. I understand the reason for splitting the Legions but by splitting up the Chapters to be so small they're now basically incapable of their primary purpose which is to be the elite forces of the Imperium. All an enemy needs to do is to simply fight a battle of attrition and sooner or later the chapter will need to either retreat or risk being wiped out. Alternatively if they only send 1 or 2 companies to avoid the chapter being wiped out then I'm sorry but enemies can simply overwhelm them. 

Enemies such as Necron can outlast the chapters by being tougher and Tyranids can simply send more forces and you get what happen with the Scythes Of the Emperor where their home planet was destroyed. I can't remember the Chapter who were destroyed when a Necron tomb awoke on their homeworld but the result was the same and simply goes to show that the Chapter as a unit simply isn't strong enough to achieve what is needed and that's when it's deployed as a whole. Company sized units are even weaker.

The Damocles Crusade is another example where 2 first founding chapters (Ultramarines and Iron Hands) and the Scythes of the Emperor, supported by Imperial Guard and titans were stopped cold by the Tau when the battle descended into one of attrition. The Ultramarines were led by Marneus Calgar who in the fluff is one of the most brilliant strategists of the age and yet the Imperium still couldn't force a victory. This leads me onto my second thing I hate.

As someone said "A war run by committee is a war already lost" (I'm paraphrasing as I can't find the exact quote but I think it's in Gaunt's Ghosts somewhere). The splitting the Imperial Armed Forces so much it has turned every crusade, every defence into a battle run by committee where the Imperial Commander has to beg and please with the Space Marines and Titans to do what he/she needs them to do. 

Putting the Space Marines and Titan Legions outside the overall command structure is just insane. Most of the time the Chapters simply don't bother to co-ordinate their attacks with the allied units and when they do the Imperial Guard commander has no-authority over them and neither does the Space Marine commander over the Imperial Guard forces. The expression "the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing". The way I see it, when Space Marines and Imperial Guard fight on the same planet they almost act as 2 completely independent armies who happen to be fighting the same enemy. WTF? The enemies of the Imperium must be laughing. Divide and conquer is an ancient strategy and the Imperium divides itself by choice? No wonder the Imperium is on it's last legs. It's overall military command structure is completely ill designed for what it needs to be.

Only when Space Marines or the Guard fight on their own and therefore there is a unified command structure (such as during the defence of Ultramar against the Tyranids and later Honsou) can a truly effective battle be fought and even then the weakness of the Chapters are cruelly exposed once more. The only crusade I'm uncertain about is Macharius' crusade and whether there were Space Marines with him and how they operated as Macharius' crusade was undeniably effective and I would love to know how and why?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

The necrons really had an opportunity to highlight their dark tendencies. I would say that is definitely one of the things that bothered me. 

Some of the fluff of the Ultramarines series makes me cringe. Pretty garbage if you ask me. Calagar has the physical strength to kill an Avatar and beat the living crude out of Daemon Prince. Those are creatures you aim your strongest weapons on, it begs the question why do you need lascannons when you can drop Calagar into the frey and do that work for everyone. The whole Imperium is wasting their time.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> Absolutely agree. Considering the massive casualties space marines take in every mission in the great crusade (as described in the FW books) and the fact that the legions and equipment was better back then and they were led by the Primarchs I'm astonished that Roboute Guilliman thought that 1000 marines was a suitable size for the future Chapters..
> 
> Given the fact that the Chapters are now used as pure assault forces or last ditch defence forces rather than armies, both of these are where you take the majority of casualties and therefore the Chapters would simply die out as you wouldn't be able to replace the losses you'd take quickly enough. All the better (in my opinion) novels describe how many casualties the Chapters take and the Imperial Armour books also show the Chapters taking large casualties (such as in the Badab wars and the siege of Vraks books).
> 
> ...



I would like to point out the efficiency of the defence of New Rynn's City during Waaagh Snagrod. The Crimson Fist deploys a SM with all the Planetary Guard regiment to keep moral high. And I know that planetary guards are quite different from imperial Guard but a way to show how a few marines can boost the more numerous Guard.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> Only when Space Marines or the Guard fight on their own and therefore there is a unified command structure (such as during the defence of Ultramar against the Tyranids and later Honsou) can a truly effective battle be fought and even then the weakness of the Chapters are cruelly exposed once more.


The only thing I will say to your complaint is that Guilliman and the rest of the Imperium feared a second civil war to such an extent that they are willing to accept all those shortcomings and restrictions you listed.

The Imperium is willing to sacrifice those worlds and Chapters to defeat because of how grave a danger a Space Marine led civil war could be.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Moriouce said:


> I would like to point out the efficiency of the defence of New Rynn's City during Waaagh Snagrod. The Crimson Fist deploys a SM with all the Planetary Guard regiment to keep moral high. And I know that planetary guards are quite different from imperial Guard but a way to show how a few marines can boost the more numerous Guard.


Fair point although the fact that the Planetary Guard in question will be used to co-operating with and putting themselves under the command of the Space Marines, something otherwise forbidden (I think) since the Horus Heresy.



hailene said:


> The only thing I will say to your complaint is that Guilliman and the rest of the Imperium feared a second civil war to such an extent that they are willing to accept all those shortcomings and restrictions you listed.
> 
> The Imperium is willing to sacrifice those worlds and Chapters to defeat because of how grave a danger a Space Marine led civil war could be.


Yeah I know and it's sad that the Space Marines quote is "They Shall Know No Fear". I think it's a massive irony that the same Primarch which came up with the "Know No Fear" quote, came up with the strategy post Heresy which shows the Imperium is pretty much afraid of everything, including itself. 

Maybe a more accurate quote for the Space Marines should be "We're Afraid of All The Other Space Marines/Imperial Guard/Titan Legions/Anybody else turning traitor and afraid of anyone having an original thought when it comes to the Codex Astartes and basically we can't do the job we were created for since we're now crippled in our ability to wage war due to our fear."

Probably not as catchy though.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> The necrons really had an opportunity to highlight their dark tendencies. I would say that is definitely one of the things that bothered me.
> 
> Some of the fluff of the Ultramarines series makes me cringe. Pretty garbage if you ask me. Calagar has the physical strength to kill an Avatar and beat the living crude out of Daemon Prince. Those are creatures you aim your strongest weapons on, it begs the question why do you need lascannons when you can drop Calagar into the frey and do that work for everyone. The whole Imperium is wasting their time.


You could just assume that everything written about the space marines in the codex is imperial propaganda. Same with the necrons, it's an imperial book written based on scraps of information they gleaned from their encounters with the crons.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Those are creatures you aim your strongest weapons on, it begs the question why do you need lascannons when you can drop Calagar into the frey and do that work for everyone. The whole Imperium is wasting their time.


Alas, the number of Calagars in the Imperium is sorely outstripped by its demand. Hence why almost everyone has to deal with the greatly inferior las cannon ;D.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> You could just assume that everything written about the space marines in the codex is imperial propaganda. Same with the necrons, it's an imperial book written based on scraps of information they gleaned from their encounters with the crons.


The sad thing is that the book should be cannon due to the fact certain characters in the series actually effect the here and now of the 40k universe.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

> And then the whole depiction of very human 40k Space Marine usually urks me. You don't take children from the worst hellholes in the Imperium, indoctrinate them with nothing but loyalty to the Imperium, hatred for its enemies, and how to murder those enemies, and come out with a relatively normal human being.


Not a fan of Salamanders then I take it? I must admit while I like how Vulkan was depicted in " Vulkan Lives " , I found it hard to believe that an astartes legion could like humans to such a degree as them..... 

I mean sure, It could be said that Vulkan understood humans since he grew up with them and defended them against Dark Eldar... but yeah, the whole concept seems a bit stretched. I guess Vulkan was Emperor's " humanness " or whatever. 

As for always bothered me about 40k, I'd have to say Orks and their concept. I was never into their comedical aspect among the grimdark universe. I'd say a brutal and powerful race as them always deserved to be more than an object of jokes... But whatever. 

The other part is of course Grey Knights fap. The mighty Demon Primarch Angron stopped by some newb grey knight psyker. 

I had to facepalm myself few times.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

LordOftheNight said:


> Not a fan of Salamanders then I take it? I must admit while I like how Vulkan was depicted in " Vulkan Lives " , I found it hard to believe that an astartes legion could like humans to such a degree as them.....


30k marines and 40k marines are two totally different beasts, in my mind. It was a different age. 

How they were indoctrinated, how old they were, the level of human-astartes interaction...all completely different.



LordOftheNight said:


> The mighty Demon Primarch Angron stopped by some newb grey knight psyker.


He wasn't stopped by Hyperion. Hyperion merely broke Angron's blade.

Also keep in mind that Hyperion was notably powerful psyker amongst the Grey Knights...which is a Chapter of powerful psykers in of itself.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

> Breaking his blade and reducing his connection to material word and his power significantly in my mind > by stopping/defeating him. 

Talented psyker or not, there are literally several sm psykers who are much more powerful than hyperion and would still probably get their ass kicked by Angron. 

Greyknightplotarmor ftw.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

LordOftheNight said:


> Breaking his blade and reducing his connection to material word and his power significantly in my mind


Where did it say that it reduced his connection to the material world or even reduced Angron's power significantly?



LordOftheNight said:


> > by stopping/defeating him.


So breaking Angron's blade is a feat more impressive than actually _defeating_ Angron ?



LordOftheNight said:


> Talented psyker or not, there are literally several sm psykers who are much more powerful than hyperion


Source? We're not really given any sort of power reading for any of the Space Marine psykers. Even comparing feats is a dubious prospect since each individual has certain affinities and skills. An incredibly powerful telekine might crush a warhound but have difficulty holding a telepathic conversation with someone in the same room. Apples to oranges.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

> Where did it say that it reduced his connection to the material world or even reduced Angron's power significantly?


Hm you're right, it didn't, I just assumed ( since it was a while since i last read the book )because of the warp-material world demon thingy. 

Albeit apparently he was less formidable without his weapons since that was the breaking point where he got banished.



> So breaking Angron's blade is a feat more impressive than actually defeating Angron ?


Depends on how you look at it. He was the one who largely ensured Angron's defeat. It is truly an immense feat, provided I could buy into such a thing. Which I'm not. 



> Source? We're not really given any sort of power reading for any of the Space Marine psykers. Even comparing feats is a dubious prospect since each individual has certain affinities and skills. An incredibly powerful telekine might crush a warhound but have difficulty holding a telepathic conversation with someone in the same room. Apples to oranges


There are several sm pyskers who are among the most powerful ones in Imperium, namely Tigurius, Njall ( who actually managed to defeat a chaos space marine warband/army with his summoned storm as well as blasting a bloodthirster apart- source- Stormcaller short novel ), Mephiston and many other.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

The 'comedic nature' of the Orks winds me up.

Can't think of anything else.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

LordOftheNight said:


> He was the one who largely ensured Angron's defeat.


Source?

We have no idea how the rest of the fight panned out.

It could have been Captain Taremar that won most of that fight. Or the weapons of Enceldaus and Galeo that speared Angron's wrists. Or the 80+ other Grey Knights living at the moment.

Or, most likely of all, a more even contribution of everyone involved. 



LordOftheNight said:


> It is truly an immense feat, provided I could buy into such a thing. Which I'm not.


It's up to you to believe it or not, but I think it makes a fair amount of sense. Angron was being assaulted by 100 psychic powers _purposely created to fight daemons_. Their very presence caused lesser daemons to vacate the matterium.

Hyperion, as I said before, had incredible amounts of psychic power. Combined with his Reflective Psychic...surrounded and connected to 100 of some of the most powerful psychic warriors the Imperium could muster...

I think it's reasonable. It was hardly Hyperion besting Angron in a one on one duel.

I'm personally of the opinion that if Angron _hadn't_ ascended, the Grey Knights would have lost. It was his daemonic nature that sealed his doom. A rock, paper, scissors sort of issue.



LordOftheNight said:


> re are several sm pyskers who are among the most powerful ones in Imperium


You totally missed my apples to oranges analogy, didn't you?

And you're using _psychic feats_ as a ruler ? Wouldn't, you know, the breaker of the Black Blade rank higher than those feats?

If so, then by our own measuring system, then Hyperion would be a stronger psyker than those you listed.

And if the breaking of the Black Blade is NOT as impressive of feats as you listed, then Hyperion is in fact weaker than those Librarians...and his feat would surely be more believable for you?


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The 'comedic nature' of the Orks winds me up.
> 
> Can't think of anything else.


Orks are the only faction who really understand what's going on.

The galaxy is never going to be at peace again, so they may as well enjoy the burning and killing of anything that moves.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> The galaxy is never going to be at peace again


When has it ever been at peace? :wink:



Reaper45 said:


> so they may as well enjoy the burning and killing of anything that moves.


Fair enough. They can enjoy it without spouting incredibly poor jokes though can't they? :laugh:


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

Why do orks speak gothic? I see no use in this. They would be better off without being able yo communicate with other spiecis.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Moriouce said:


> Why do orks speak gothic? I see no use in this. They would be better off without being able yo communicate with other spiecis.


Almost none of them do. It's only the very rare Ork that can speak Gothic with any sort of fluency.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

hailene said:


> Almost none of them do. It's only the very rare Ork that can speak Gothic with any sort of fluency.



I know it is rare, but no ork should. Better to let them gruff and bark, only for themselves to understand.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

There was a story in perhaps one of the Index Astartes or White Dwarfs that described how the fight between Aurellian and Angron went down, and it was a pretty awesome read, especially the reactions before and after by Grimnar. Granted it might now be somewhat retconned as it mentions nothing of the Blade or anyone breaking it, but Aurellian still had a hell of a lot to do to banish Angron.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

I've always been annoyed with the concept of the Primarchs, following the Heresy (+ Scouring), dropping out of the 40K storyline. There's really only two among all the loyalist Primarchs that both survive the Heresy itself and have any real Imperial political ability on their own, Guilliman and Dorn. So why not let several have a role and the addition that makes to the overall storyline.

I also get annoyed with the concept of a frozen or regressive technological environment, especially every time an author pulls out another bit of nigh-magical tech in the interest of advancing the story line. Reading some of the Mechanicum-related fluff clearly shows that Adepts and Forges are constantly developing or even recovering tech.


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## Angel of Lies (Oct 10, 2011)

One thing that has annoyed me was the technological stagnation. Not so much that technology has stagnated but rather how it is depicted. In the first few books I read of 40k, I got the impression that every piece of technology was priceless. Most of it was unknowable or insanely hard to understand that the Imperium had lost the ability to make them.

Then I watched has dozens of these pieces of equipment (Battleships, Terminator Armor, Titans, ect, ect) get destroyed or needlessly pissed into the wind during conflict. To me that just made absolutely no sense. Cause every battle in the 100,000 wars the Imperium is fighting at any one time should have long ago left it a dried, primitive, husk.

It also left me with the question of wtf are the Forge Worlds even making? All the badass technology that keeps the Imperium afloat are lost now ... so wtf are they making, a shit ton of lasguns and frag grenades?


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Angel of Lies said:


> One thing that has annoyed me was the technological stagnation. Not so much that technology has stagnated but rather how it is depicted. In the first few books I read of 40k, I got the impression that every piece of technology was priceless. Most of it was unknowable or insanely hard to understand that the Imperium had lost the ability to make them.
> 
> Then I watched has dozens of these pieces of equipment (Battleships, Terminator Armor, Titans, ect, ect) get destroyed or needlessly pissed into the wind during conflict. To me that just made absolutely no sense. Cause every battle in the 100,000 wars the Imperium is fighting at any one time should have long ago left it a dried, primitive, husk.
> 
> It also left me with the question of wtf are the Forge Worlds even making? All the badass technology that keeps the Imperium afloat are lost now ... so wtf are they making, a shit ton of lasguns and frag grenades?


It's called the worf effect. You want to prove an enemy is dangerous have to obliterate a battleship, battle barge, curb stomp an astartes chapter or IG regiment. It's one of those sci fi tropes that everyone uses but no one really realizes.

In my head canon, the ability to make certain tech's isn't completely lost, certain first founding chapters can replace their terminator armor and other pieces, and they supply other chapters with them. Aside from the few unique items they want to keep.

As for battleships and stuff I like to think that they still produce battleships but what made the old ones valuable is not replaceable.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

That's the thing, rather than as some unified whole, the Imperium's technology are sealed more as islands.

Ryza, for example, has a mastery of plasma technology probably not matched outside of Mars itself (at least in the IoM). It won't share it's understanding with forge world X, so forge world X and its surrounding sectors have to make due without the incredibly advanced plasma weaponry the worlds near Ryza enjoy.

Repeat this across the entire Imperium of Man.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

hailene said:


> That's the thing, rather than as some unified whole, the Imperium's technology are sealed more as islands.
> 
> Ryza, for example, has a mastery of plasma technology probably not matched outside of Mars itself (at least in the IoM). It won't share it's understanding with forge world X, so forge world X and its surrounding sectors have to make due without the incredibly advanced plasma weaponry the worlds near Ryza enjoy.
> 
> Repeat this across the entire Imperium of Man.


Just goes the show the imperium isn't a unified front, Thanks Gulliman.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

> Source?
> 
> We have no idea how the rest of the fight panned out.
> 
> ...


Angron was slaying 5 Grey Knight Terminators at the same time with his blade. A loss of a powerful demonic weapon has turned back the tide in Grey Knight's favour, regardless of how the rest of the fight played out, that was made clear thanks to Hyperion's intervention. Had not that happened, god knows if any of the Grey Knights would have survived. 

You're arguing semantics here. 



> Hyperion, as I said before, had incredible amounts of psychic power. Combined with his Reflective Psychic...surrounded and connected to 100 of some of the most powerful psychic warriors the Imperium could muster...


He was said to be a very talented psyker, not to have incredible amounts of psychic power. Even if he did, he wasn't exactly a senior librarian, or chief libranian.

Besides, it was him who stopped Angron's blade. Considering how Khorne protects his minions against psychic stuff, I found it far fetched for Angron to have such troubles with a lowly Grey Knight like Hyperion. 



> I'm personally of the opinion that if Angron hadn't ascended, the Grey Knights would have lost. It was his daemonic nature that sealed his doom. A rock, paper, scissors sort of issue.


I agree. I don't have issues with him losing to Grey Knights, but I have issues with how it was done. 



> And you're using psychic feats as a ruler ? Wouldn't, you know, the breaker of the Black Blade rank higher than those feats?


Perhaps? But that's my issue all along. Hyperion was never presented to be an immensly powerful psyker, not at least in leagues with the guys that I mentioned. I can agree that he was damn formidable, but there's a whole league above that category.



> If so, then by our own measuring system, then Hyperion would be a stronger psyker than those you listed.
> 
> And if the breaking of the Black Blade is NOT as impressive of feats as you listed, then Hyperion is in fact weaker than those Librarians...and his feat would surely be more believable for you?


You're just arguing now for the sake of arguing aren't you? xD


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

LordOftheNight said:


> You're just arguing now for the sake of arguing aren't you? xD


Lol.

I don't think I like Ork fluff. I think it is capable of being a lot darker, in a "Joker" type way. I'm also glad none of the writers chose to write a plot line about orks spreading like a disease. If they have, they made it pretty clear that they purged them... lol. The thing is, the ability of orcs to reproduce is so uncontrollable that the whole galaxy should have infestations in every planet. I mean after scouring a planet, orcs have been known to pop out in the millions a couple years later.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

LordOftheNight said:


> Had not that happened, god knows if any of the Grey Knights would have survived.


You're right. God knows.

We have literally no clue on how the fight went. For all we know, a lance beam from an orbiting ship finished Angron.

Or Angron slipped on a banana peel and was never seen again for a thousand years.

You're arguing from ignorance (our ignorance of how the fight finished).



LordOftheNight said:


> He was said to be a very talented psyker, not to have incredible amounts of psychic power.


Hyperion's power drew the eyes of the last two Prognosticars of the Chapter. The final Prognosticar said, "Your powers drew notice, even before you were lingering in the trials of assessment."



LordOftheNight said:


> You're just arguing now for the sake of arguing aren't you? xD


Nope, good ole fashion logic there.

I think the logic is sound. Do you have a counter argument for it?

Is the breaking of Angron's blade a great feat or a minor one?


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

I'm not arguing that we don't know how the fight ended. All I'm arguing that breaking the black blade has definitely helped majorly in beating Angron. 

Angron without black blade or Angron with the black blade, you decide what's more lethal. Since you're so proud of your logic. 




> Hyperion's power drew the eyes of the last two Prognosticars of the Chapter. The final Prognosticar said, "Your powers drew notice, even before you were lingering in the trials of assessment."


So do others thousands upon thousands psykers, doesn't means they're top notch. You clearly don't understand the difference between most established psykers in the imperium of man and those that are considered powerful.

The difference is vast. 

Anyway I'm done here.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

LordOftheNight said:


> Angron without black blade or Angron with the black blade, you decide what's more lethal. Since you're so proud of your logic.


Now you're changing your tune. There's a difference between "The black blade make Angron more deadly" (likely true, but even then, we're not 100% sure) and "Most of Angron's combat effectiveness lies in the Black Blade". But, hey, who needs citations in an argument, right? As long as you "feel" something is true, it ought to be true?



LordOftheNight said:


> You clearly don't understand the difference between most established psykers in the imperium of man and those that are considered powerful.


You really didn't read _The Emperor's Gift_ did you? Or at least not very thoroughly.

I'd bet money you didn't really read the Ravenor trilogy either.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

With regards to Hyperion, would just like to point out that as an untrained, virtually comatose teenager, his psychic power was enough to burn out a blank's null aura, effectively turning them into a normal human. The only other thing to achieve something similar, from what I can recall right now, was a demonically possessed titan (beings like Malcador, Magnus and the Emperor have shown themselves to be unaffected by blanks, but not to actually burn them out, though the Emperor could in all likelihood do it, if he were so inclined). So, in terms of raw power, Hyperion is definitely amongst the most powerful psykers to appear in the fluff.


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## Zakath (Feb 23, 2011)

Grav-guns.

They seem way too advanced for the Imperium and even if there were a few of them in existence, shouldnt they be special equipment? Fluff says theres only a handful in the galaxy and yet I face SM lists with more than 12 such weapons. 
Rules wise I have difficulties understanding how those things can fire so many times and wound so easily. Theyre not great vs tanks but did the game really need a gun that reliably wipes Terminator squads?

If the grav technology is so easily and effectively weaponised how come Necrons Eldar or Tau dont use it? Each of them are more competent with grav tech but none have thought about grav guns?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Zakath said:


> Grav-guns.
> 
> They seem way too advanced for the Imperium


Pre-Heresy? Are you serious? Post-Heresy GGuns are 'too' advanced for obvious reasons.



Zakath said:


> If the grav technology is so easily and effectively weaponised how come Necrons Eldar or Tau dont use it? Each of them are more competent with grav tech but none have thought about grav guns?


Because they prefer other weapons. 

Why don't they create their own version of Space Marines/Primarchs? 

The Dark Eldar for example are not fans of heavy/bulky weaponry so you'll never see them in power-armor. They prefer a fragile but fast pace of warfare.

The Tau prefer long range warfare versus close-range because they're pitiful up close.



Chompy Bits said:


> With regards to Hyperion, would just like to point out that as an untrained, virtually comatose teenager, his psychic power was enough to burn out a blank's null aura, effectively turning them into a normal human .


I've read TEG like 5 times and I don't recall having read that.


My contribution to the thread: the Ork's ability to produce titans of their own using nothing but scrap metal and in mere days/weeks and the fact that the *basic* Ork soldier is capable of killing and piercing the armor of a Space Marine with nothing more than a spear.

Similarly I'm bothered by the fact that Genestealers, of which there are millions, can slice up Terminator armor like it's made out of butter.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Chompy Bits said:


> With regards to Hyperion, would just like to point out that as an untrained, virtually comatose teenager, his psychic power was enough to burn out a blank's null aura, effectively turning them into a normal human. The only other thing to achieve something similar, from what I can recall right now, was a demonically possessed titan (beings like Malcador, Magnus and the Emperor have shown themselves to be unaffected by blanks, but not to actually burn them out, though the Emperor could in all likelihood do it, if he were so inclined). So, in terms of raw power, Hyperion is definitely amongst the most powerful psykers to appear in the fluff.


So I guess you missed the line where Ravenor stated that as a teen he had no psychic abilities of his own. He was a mirror as in he was able to be a psyker as long as another psyker was in range.

He never gained any abilities that he could use alone till he became a grey knight. That was the emperor's gift.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Reminder: This was just to vent, if you disagree, just say so. No need to beat them over the head with personal fluff interpretations.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I've read TEG like 5 times and I don't recall having read that.




That's because it's in the Ravenor trilogy, where Hyperion, or Zael as he was then, is first discovered.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I've read TEG like 5 times and I don't recall having read that.


Not surprising since it occurs in _Ravenor Rogue_.



Reaper45 said:


> So I guess you missed the line where Ravenor stated that as a teen he had no psychic abilities of his own.


He had no active abilities that were entirely his own as a teenager, but that doesn't mean he didn't have a lot of power. Just no outlet for all of it. On Zael's power, Ravenor said he had "Empowered deep potentials." And that's what we're talking about, his raw power.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

> Posting in Red Text in whole or in part is expressly forbidden. Red is reserved for official moderator statements.


From the forum rules.



CJay said:


> Reminder: This was just to vent, if you disagree, just say so. No need to beat them over the head with personal fluff interpretations.


Red text is for 'official' posts by the Staff only.

Ta


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

hailene said:


> Not surprising since it occurs in _Ravenor Rogue_.
> 
> 
> 
> He had no active abilities that were entirely his own as a teenager, but that doesn't mean he didn't have a lot of power. Just no outlet for all of it. On Zael's power, Ravenor said he had "Empowered deep potentials." And that's what we're talking about, his raw power.


Ah I wasn't aware Hyperion featured in other books.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Ah I wasn't aware Hyperion featured in other books.




Oh, man, you missed out on a big twist. My jaw was about 3 feet into the ground when I read his name was Zael Efferneti. I was like, that little, undernourished hive-scum boy is a Grey Knight? Mind blown!


I highly recommended the Eisenhorn and Ravenor trilogies. Make sure to read Eisenhorn first, though.

Spoiler tags in the future please, especially for those (like myself) who have still yet to read the book. - darlreever


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I've read TEG like 5 times and I don't recall having read that.




It happens in the _Ravenor_ series, when he is still just a drug addicted teenager.




Reaper45 said:


> So I guess you missed the line where Ravenor stated that as a teen he had no psychic abilities of his own. He was a mirror as in he was able to be a psyker as long as another psyker was in range.
> 
> He never gained any abilities that he could use alone till he became a grey knight. That was the emperor's gift.




Guess you missed the part in the books where prolonged exposure to his sheer raw psychic potential burned out Wystan Frauka's null field (the same Frauka who easily depowered and killed a high Gamma, who was psychically kicking Ravenor's ass at the time), effectively turning him into a normal human, susceptible to psychic powers. Also, read what I post. Where did I say that he used active powers to burn out Frauka's null field? His sheer, untrained, dormant psychic potential was enough to do the job. Which is actually far more impressive IMO.


Also, consider his inception into the Grey Knights. He would normally have been considered too old for recruitment. But his sheer potential for psychic power, even among Grey Knights, made them reconsider, and start the implantation process on him. So despite his age, his drug history, and his relations with Ravenor, who was in deep shit at the time, they still decided to give him a chance. And Grey Knights are only picked out of the most talented and powerful psykers the Inquisition finds. So the fact that they were willing to take that gamble on him, based purely on his potential psychic might, speaks a great deal about his inherent power. And then also consider the fact that some of the most powerful, skilled and talented Grey Knights (which, by them being Grey Knights, should easily put them amongst the most powerful psykers in the Imperium), recognised his powers, and considered him a potential future peer.

So, if you take all that into account, and then take into account his feat of shattering Angron's blade, Hyperion is easily amongst the most powerful psykers shown in the fluff, even if he doesn't have his own special Codex supplement.


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

> The Tau prefer long range warfare versus close-range because they're pitiful up close.


Hah, In Damocles collection, Shadowsun is fighting a White Scar captain on equal ground, and that is upclose and personal. 

I haven't read in detail about Tau and I know that Ethereals are supposed to be quite good in close combat , but isn't this far fetched a bit? 

I know it annoyed the hell out of me. 



> and the fact that the basic Ork soldier is capable of killing and piercing the armor of a Space Marine with nothing more than a spear.


Haven't heard of Feral Orks being capable of that, but normal boys with their chopa are more than able. It's all in their powerful muscles, really. :/ 



> Similarly I'm bothered by the fact that Genestealers, of which there are millions, can slice up Terminator armor like it's made out of butter


Makes you wonder what are their claws made of huh? If a Terminator armor is nothing to them, nothing short of super heavy tanks and titans is capable of withstanding their claws then. 

Which is incredibly dumb.


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

LordOftheNight said:


> Makes you wonder what are their claws made of huh? If a Terminator armor is nothing to them, nothing short of super heavy tanks and titans is capable of withstanding their claws then.


Well they DO have rending - Apparently it's on a 2+ in the books, in comparison to the game


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## Brobaddon (Jul 14, 2012)

Not a tabletop player, sorry XD


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

LordOftheNight said:


> Not a tabletop player, sorry XD


You killed my joke!


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Chompy Bits said:


> It happens in the _Ravenor_ series, when he is still just a drug addicted teenager.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Allot of artistic licensing was used in those books. According to the emperors gift which was written after and makes direct references to both series he has no potential of his own. He was a mirror.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

hailene said:


> Oh, man, you missed out on a big twist. My jaw was about 3 feet into the ground when I read his name was Zael Efferneti. I was like, that little, undernourished hive-scum boy is a Grey Knight? Mind blown!
> 
> 
> I highly recommended the Eisenhorn and Ravenor trilogies. Make sure to read Eisenhorn first, though.
> ...


I have read them but ages ago. I'll get on it once I take my sweet time with ToH.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> Allot of artistic licensing was used in those books. According to the emperors gift which was written after and makes direct references to both series he has no potential of his own. He was a mirror.


No. Being a teenager he has, as per _The Emperor's Gift_, "no capacity to access his own innate psychic strength". It also goes on to say that he has "Immense potential for psychic mastery."

It's stated several times in _The Emperor's Gift_ that Hyperion could--and eventually becomes--extremely powerful.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

hailene said:


> No. Being a teenager he has, as per _The Emperor's Gift_, "no capacity to access his own innate psychic strength". It also goes on to say that he has "Immense potential for psychic mastery."
> 
> It's stated several times in _The Emperor's Gift_ that Hyperion could--and eventually becomes--extremely powerful.


Isn't that what I said?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> Isn't that what I said?


Nope. Not at all.

Let me zone in on the part where you went astray.



Reaper45 said:


> both series [said] he [had] no potential of his own


He has plenty of _potential_ on his own. "Immense" amounts, to quote the Inquisition.

Whether or not he has the ability to access said potential is irrelevant to whether or not he has potential.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I understand the importance and even necessity of how the Inquisition, Daemon Hunters, and Ultramarines (including Guilliman's history. However, I feel the stuff is pretty farfetched. I still feel like there's a stretch at what BL and GW are trying to do with their fluff. I'll see how it goes. If wave length could represent 40k fluff, those topics to me seem like very skewed high frequencies.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> . If wave length could represent 40k fluff, those topics to me seem like very skewed high frequencies.


Which topics? Just stories and books about the Inquisition and Ultramarines in general?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

hailene said:


> Which topics? Just stories and books about the Inquisition and Ultramarines in general?


Well for instance, how much power the Inquisition has gained throughout the years. I just feel that realistically the High Lords and Guilliman's allies would remain the strongest and most influential force in the Imperium. The new Daemon Hunters lore is something else entirely which doesn't trouble me too much. As far as Guilliman goes, I'm quite surprised he is able to gain enough support and strength to essentially force the Imperium to his will. Most say that the Imperium in general was upset with Dorn for "failing" to keep the walls intact and perhaps the Emperor's life. 

With such a overwhelming force against them, and everything Dorn went through with most of the Imperium, I would think there would be some sort of understanding that they were all against Chaos together. It wasn't so much a game where the Imperial worlds were watching the fight and shouting from the crowd at everything wrong Dorn was doing. They were in it together. 

But essentially, its at least been assumed that is why Guilliman was able to force his opponents to accept his codex and his Imperium.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Well for instance, how much power the Inquisition has gained throughout the years. I just feel that realistically the High Lords and Guilliman's allies would remain the strongest and most influential force in the Imperium.


The strength of the Inquisition stems from its decentralized nature. The High Lords just get most day-to-day stuff too late to do anything about it. Even stuff like Armageddon or something just takes too long for it to reach the ears of the High Lords, through all the channels of bureaucracy it normally has to wind through, then they have the deliberate, and decide on a course of action, and then finally shoot the answer back. 

The Inquisition is at ground zero, usually.

Plus there's just so much momentum behind the Inquisition. People "know" the Emperor is a god. They also know that the Inquisition also speaks for the one true "god". How else are people supposed to react? It's so ingrained in the peoples' mind that the Emperor is a literal god, that to go against the physical manifestation of His will would be insane.



ckcrawford said:


> As far as Guilliman goes, I'm quite surprised he is able to gain enough support and strength to essentially force the Imperium to his will.


Remember, it wasn't just Guilliman giving the a-ok. Corax and the Khan also sided with Guilliman.

Guilliman was also the only primarch to actually build an incredibly prosperous and productive empire. That was probably a giant checkmark in his favor.

It also made sense for those who _opposed_ Guilliman to buy into the Codex Astartes. Who had the the greatest concentration of Space Marines in post-Scouring Imperium? Guilliman. Who had the most to lose by breaking the Legions into Chapters? Guilliman.



ckcrawford said:


> I would think there would be some sort of understanding that they were all against Chaos together.


I think Guilliman was fully aware that either they stuck together or died. That's why he made the Codex.

It wasn't "you're with me or against me!" but more "we need to work together without killing each other, so here's how we're going to do it..."

At least in my opinion.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Oh Guilliman was of the with me or against me-routine against the Imperial Fists as the Imperial Navy even fired on them. With the rest he managed to cooperate, but towards the Imperial Fists he was a true bully who even dared calling Dorn a rebel.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

hailene said:


> Who had the the greatest concentration of Space Marines in post-Scouring Imperium? Guilliman. Who had the most to lose by breaking the Legions into Chapters? Guilliman..


You really believe he lost anything by breaking his Legion down? You don't think that every single one of those chapters that were made up of the Ultramarines wouldn't come together should he call them without a moments hesitation? He lost nothing, just made the logistics of his 'Legion' or legion of chapters, a little more challenging.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> You don't think that every single one of those chapters that were made up of the Ultramarines wouldn't come together should he call them without a moments hesitation?


If that's how you think it panned out, then no one lost anything. With that line of logic, if Dorn decided to ring the dinner bell and all the Imperial Fists successors came a runnin', then Dorn had nothing to lose as well. Might as well accept the Codex and pretend nothing else came of it.

I'm guessing Guilliman also saw that the primarchs were doomed to die or otherwise be separated from his sons. Decentralizing the Space Marine power was essential for removing the chance of massive Space Marine civil war.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> You really believe he lost anything by breaking his Legion down? You don't think that every single one of those chapters that were made up of the Ultramarines wouldn't come together should he call them without a moments hesitation? He lost nothing, just made the logistics of his 'Legion' or legion of chapters, a little more challenging.


I agree with you. Guilliman must have known that in the long-term his Legion's successors would have splintered, drifted and gone their own way - forging their own alliances, traditions and feuds - severing their ties with their parent Chapter. But in the short term (in the lifetime of the Primarchs) it's near-impossible to imagine that the amalgamation of successor Chapters created during the Second Founding (or at least the vast majority of them) wouldn't have answered their Primarch's call.

In essence, I don't think Guilliman did lose much from the Codex reforms. For example, we know that the Ultramarines and a significant number of their successors campaigned together against the Night Lords on Tsagualsa ('The XIII Legion in all but name' as _Void Stalker_ puts it). The Codex reforms were necessary in the long term, but in Guilliman's lifetime he still could have wielded the power of a Legion if he so wished. Similarly I can't imagine the Black Templars, Soul Drinkers or Crimson Fists would have refused the summons of Rogal Dorn following the Second Founding.



hailene said:


> Might as well accept the Codex and pretend nothing else came of it.


I think it was more about principle in Dorn's case. He didn't want to split his Legion because he didn't think it was necessary, he wasn't the visionary that Guilliman was. Also, to quote the IA, "he could not see why humanity would not trust the Imperial Fists because of what the Traitor Legions had done". 



hailene said:


> I'm guessing Guilliman also saw that the primarchs were doomed to die or otherwise be separated from his sons. Decentralizing the Space Marine power was essential for removing the chance of massive Space Marine civil war.


Yep.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I do think its interesting at the choice of allies that joined Guilliman for the codex. I mean, Corax, and Khan... 

Past fluff has stated the other primarchs either had no say or were against it. I wonder if that will remain as canon. As far as Khan and Corax goes, its very telling when analyzing their views of the Imperium and even how Horus initially viewed their loyalty. There is some irony if you view Guilliman's codex as a betrayal against the Emperor and his Imperium, and the fact that Khan and Corax follow it.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> You really believe he lost anything by breaking his Legion down? You don't think that every single one of those chapters that were made up of the Ultramarines wouldn't come together should he call them without a moments hesitation? He lost nothing, just made the logistics of his 'Legion' or legion of chapters, a little more challenging.


I agree, its very telling. The Ultramarines have become the Imperium. Their gene seed is chosen to build more chapters than any other, even though the Iron Hands, and I believe the Dark Angels also have good gene seed.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> I do think its interesting at the choice of allies that joined Guilliman for the codex. I mean, Corax, and Khan...


It makes sense those two joined.

In _Scars_ (amongst other sources) that the Khan likes to keep his men separated. Centralizing their power would make them rest on their laurels, much like the nobility that ruled the Khan's world before he conquered them.

Breaking his Legion into Chapters would be analogous to him breaking the world-wide empire he had made on his homeplanet back into feuding tribes.

And of course Corax's Legion paid a heavy price for the consolidated powers of the Legions.

Plus I figure Raven Guard operations wouldn't lend themselves to open, attrition-based warfare--something that Legions can do but Chapters not so much. It probably didn't hurt him too much either, in terms of operation effectiveness.


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## Tlaloc (Oct 2, 2014)

I really don't like the idea of Tau being under the influence of Ethereals due to some sort of pheromone control. I just find this a lame cop-out. My understanding is that (besides the apparent Eldar influence), the Tau are successful because of the following reasons:
1: They learn from their history (unlike humans)
2: They are immune to superstition, which doesn't hold them back on a technological level (unlike humans)
3: They all agree (besides Farsight and his crew) on an ideology that has obvious benefits to the entire species.
4: Their logical approach means that they don't have petty infighting over social positions.
5: Their sensible "let's make this happen" approach.
The pheromone thing just panders to the "need moar grimdark", and it cheapens the fluff potential of the faction.

Also, every Tau-related novel and short story that has been published is absolutely, spectacularly bad (eyes on you, _Shadowsun_).


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> I do think its interesting at the choice of allies that joined Guilliman for the codex. I mean, Corax, and Khan...
> 
> Past fluff has stated the other primarchs either had no say or were against it. I wonder if that will remain as canon. As far as Khan and Corax goes, its very telling when analyzing their views of the Imperium and even how Horus initially viewed their loyalty. There is some irony if you view Guilliman's codex as a betrayal against the Emperor and his Imperium, and the fact that Khan and Corax follow it.


I also find it interesting that guilliman decided that splitting the legions was the best course of action.

Even though the loyalists could have joined horus at any time but didn't to me it stands to reason that they're loyalty is absolute. Unless he had other reasons to want to limit their power.


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## Scrad (Apr 4, 2014)

Reaper45 said:


> I also find it interesting that guilliman decided that splitting the legions was the best course of action.
> 
> Even though the loyalists could have joined horus at any time but didn't to me it stands to reason that they're loyalty is absolute. Unless he had other reasons to want to limit their power.


Simply put, because there was no all-guiding Emperor anymore. No main figurehead where previously a disagreement meant almost nothing in light of the Emperor's knowledge and authority. ".._buuut dad_.."

Who's to say which son might in the future want a greater vision or plan for the Imperium that the other primarchs didn't agree with. Even just minor disagreements that might flare up and scare the citizens of a recovering Imperium. There had to be a separation of their powers [just in case].


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> Even though the loyalists could have joined horus at any time but didn't to me it stands to reason that they're loyalty is absolute.


_No one's_ loyalty was absolute. A couple of reasons:

1. Guilliman knew about the corrupting powers of Chaos. As he says to the Lion in _The Unremembered Empire_, "Our brothers, even the Lupercal, have not turned against us. They have _been _turned."

Guilliman himself had a near brush of that in _Know no Fear_ when Erebus strikes him with the Anathema. No one is above reproach, even the Primarchs who stood fast with the Emperor.

2. Everyone dies. Even the Primarchs. And while today's marines may be staunchly loyal...who says their successors will be? Or theirs that come after them? Or them?

No sense of keeping all your eggs in so few baskets.


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

A particular bit of fluff I've always hated was Lucius being able to come back to life. Absurd. If the plot ever moves on I'd hope he gets killed by a carnifex or something that wouldn't think twice about the kill and he'd remain dead forever

I'm a nid player myself but don't like the nid fluff of totally consuming planets at the speed they do it. At the very least I'd like the idea of taking back and terraforming these places to be a possibility, or it would be better if the process was a lot slower than it seems to be. Like hundreds of years to consume an entire planet so the fleet either puts down anchor for a long time or they have to move on to continue the invasion. Basically any kind of limitation that makes the tyranid invasion of the universe a bit less OP.

Definitely on board with those saying the comedy of orks is a bit jarring. Whenever I've considered doing an ork army it was always based more on a combination of Elder Scrolls orsimer, LOTR orcs and Halo brutes. More intelligent orks who are still brutal, warlike and generally hostile but not brain dead clowns



Nordicus said:


> Well they DO have rending - Apparently it's on a 2+ in the books, in comparison to the game


It used to be supported in the game too. At one time their attacks just ignored armour saves and back then terminators didn't even have an invulnerable. In playing terms the idea of using terminators against a genestealer infested space hulk would have been the stupidest idea imaginable since they'd put up no better fight in combat than tacticals or scouts. The more sensible approach would have been to use scouts with bolters in those days. Or bog standard guard infantry even!

I imagine the old space hulk game must have been a bit different to 40k because on a board with winding corridors (no change of long range fire) and stealers outnumbering termies 2:1 there'd be no realistic way of the terminators winning. If they get one round of shooting with a storm bolter they would kill one stealer _sometimes_, but then the remaining stealer would charge, land two hits, wound once and kill their guy. Game over.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Squire said:


> Definitely on board with those saying the comedy of orks is a bit jarring. Whenever I've considered doing an ork army it was always based more on a combination of Elder Scrolls orsimer, LOTR orcs and Halo brutes. More intelligent orks who are still brutal, warlike and generally hostile but not brain dead clowns


Never liked the Orks being just stupid. I see them as something truly malicious to be afraid of that does awful stuff just for laugh. I mean if Orks enters a village, they might just as well torture the inhabitants or go into extremely cruel contests about who can throw scared villager the farthest as opposed to just kill them.



Squire said:


> A particular bit of fluff I've always hated was Lucius being able to come back to life. Absurd. If the plot ever moves on I'd hope he gets killed by a carnifex or something that wouldn't think twice about the kill and he'd remain dead forever


It's a bit OTT, but I'm sort of fine with it as he is the plaything of Slaanesh.



Scrad said:


> Simply put, because there was no all-guiding Emperor anymore. No main figurehead where previously a disagreement meant almost nothing in light of the Emperor's knowledge and authority. "..buuut dad.."


Didn't the fact that they didn't want another Space Marine to be truly mighty again come into play? After all Guilliman is supposed to be a genius that outshines Empy all the time? Or so it seems.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

You're mistaking stupidity for apathy, the orks aren't a stupid race, they live to fight everything else can go burn in the warp for all they care.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Reaper45 said:


> You're mistaking stupidity for apathy, the orks aren't a stupid race, they live to fight everything else can go burn in the warp for all they care.


Not to be rude, but you need a dictionary as apathy is sitting down like the colonists at Pax in Serenity the Firefly movie. The Orks doesn't sit down and die, they rather rampage and kill, a whole different sort of action.

And just for a demonstration http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Apathy


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> You're mistaking stupidity for apathy, the orks aren't a stupid race, they live to fight everything else can go burn in the warp for all they care.





Beaviz81 said:


> Not to be rude, but you need a dictionary as apathy is sitting down like the colonists at Pax in Serenity the Firefly movie. The Orks doesn't sit down and die, they rather rampage and kill, a whole different sort of action.
> 
> And just for a demonstration http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Apathy


Yeaaaah apathy is really one of the last words I would ever use to describe Orks.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Beaviz81 said:


> Not to be rude, but you need a dictionary as apathy is sitting down like the colonists at Pax in Serenity the Firefly movie. The Orks doesn't sit down and die, they rather rampage and kill, a whole different sort of action.
> 
> And just for a demonstration http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Apathy


Not to be rude but I think you should play attention in language classes a bit more.

Let's pretend we're an inquisitor whose in the know. They're fully aware that there's a swarm of countless aliens from outside the galaxy poised to strike anywhere at anytime. Not only that they're being drawn by the very thing that allows your ships to navigate the warp.

On any planet humans could start worshiping the dark gods and best case scenario they start a rebellion. Worst case they summon a daemon and things go down hill from there.

There's an entire race of raiders who could hit any planet at any time for the express purpose of taking humans to torture for their own amusement.

At any time their "good" cousins could choose to manipulate events so that people die or cause a war to start.

Under any planet millions of years old robots could arise or be awakened by the mechanicus and slaughter an entire planet.

On many planets orks could come and rampage slaughtering everything in their path.

Then there's the tau who are slowly subverting imperial plants into their own empire, every regiment and chapter sent to take that planet back is less resources to combat the other threats.

And finally to top it all off there's a negative space wedge filled with ten thousand year old super human warriors who launch a crusade every so often.

Any one of these is a threat, but they're all happening at the same time.

The other factions have their own problems. But the orks, well the only thing an ork cares about is how hard he can hit something with his choppa, or how fast he can charge at the enemy.

They don't care that there's countless threats ready to conquer the galaxy, their only concern is getting a good fight.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Reaper45, you clearly need to have a sitting down with a dictionary.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Reaper45, you clearly need to have a sitting down with a dictionary.


Apathy,

noun, plural apathies. 1. absence or suppression of passion, emotion, or excitement. 

2. lack of interest in or concern for things that others find moving or exciting. 



Hmm, orks fit definition two perfectly.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

This hurts me. Really, really hurts me, but I have to agree with Beaviz here.

Orks are not apathetic. Really the opposite.

They are absolutely passionate about...whatever they choose to be.

General Orks are looking for a fight. All the time. If there's not a fight to be had, they'll make one.

Then of course the specific Ork clans have their own passions--speed, loot, technology, ect. They're a race of real passion or drive. They won't mope or sit around waiting for something, they'll grab the tusks and take it.

While Orks may be apathetic towards things other races hold dear (or at least some of them, some of the time), I think we can agree that almost every Ork (if not every Ork) has an overwhelming passion for something. Whether that's sqigg eating, head smashing, or loot taking, it's there.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

hailene said:


> This hurts me. Really, really hurts me, but I have to agree with Beaviz here.
> 
> Orks are not apathetic. Really the opposite.
> 
> ...


Sp orks can be apathic to things that other races hold dear but that doesn't make them apathic?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> Sp orks can be apathic to things that other races hold dear but that doesn't make them apathic?


Totally. I mean, there's on real way for any race to be totally excited about everything every other race cares about. Not possible. I mean, I assume you don't share my fiery passion for Mahou Shoujo Madoka, right? (Unless you do, then I <3 you.) You may be uninterested in that anime, but surely that doesn't make you an apathetic person, right?

Orks may disregard the "finer" points of culture, but that doesn't mean they disregard everything. They have their own wants and desires.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

hailene said:


> Totally. I mean, there's on real way for any race to be totally excited about everything every other race cares about. Not possible. I mean, I assume you don't share my fiery passion for Mahou Shoujo Madoka, right? (Unless you do, then I <3 you.) You may be uninterested in that anime, but surely that doesn't make you an apathetic person, right?
> 
> Orks may disregard the "finer" points of culture, but that doesn't mean they disregard everything. They have their own wants and desires.


In the definition I posted it says for definition 2. lack of interest in or concern for things that others find moving or exciting.

So yeah I'd say they can be apathetic.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Reaper45 said:


> In the definition I posted it says for definition 2. lack of interest in or concern for things that others find moving or exciting.
> 
> So yeah I'd say they can be apathetic.


In that way you can mean apathetic, well from here comes a whole different meaning of it, and that's even from personal enemies of mine. Which makes me cringe.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Beaviz81 said:


> In that way you can mean apathetic, well from here comes a whole different meaning of it, and that's even from personal enemies of mine. Which makes me cringe.


Because clearly a word can only have one meaning.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Reaper45 said:


> Because clearly a word can only have one meaning.


Explain the meaning then.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Beaviz81 said:


> Explain the meaning then.


Didn't I just post the meaning of apathy? there plenty of room for interpretation.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> Because clearly a word can only have one meaning.


I think the problem you're having is that a being or group of people can be apathetic towards one thing (or even many things), yet not be apathetic as a whole.

Like someone could absolutely Warhammer 40k. He obsesses over every minutia and facet of the hobby. Yet at the same time have absolutely no care about sports, art, or even his personal well-being. Would you say such a person is apathetic? Absolutely not. He has a singular fiery passion driving him forward. Every breath he takes and calorie he consumes is merely means for him to delve deeper into the Warhammer 40k universe. That's passion bleeding into fanaticism. 

Do you know where I'm coming from now?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm sorry but you really are just wrong here. Someone can be apathetic towards something, but that doesn't mean you describe them as an apthetic person. Your confusing definitions and applying them in the wrong way.

As others have been trying to tell you, I am apathetic towards car statistics and engines, I just don't care about it, all I need from my car is for it to work, I don't care about how fast it can get to 60 etc. So yeah, I'm apathetic towards that. But I am beyond passionate about snowboarding, I'm pretty invested in the lore of 40k, in pc gaming, in Marvel and DC comics(more Marvel tbh) and many other things. There is no way you could refer to me as an apathetic person.

The same holds true for you calling Orks apathetic as a race. They simply aren't, as we have said, very much the opposite. You could say they are apathetic towards some things that others like, but that doesn't mean they are an apathetic race.


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## Beaviz81 (Feb 24, 2012)

Apathy and uncaring is not the same. I mean I'm uncaring about what certain people think or about certain sports or events. That doesn't mean I'm an apathetic being. It only means I'm uncaring about those sort of events like AoB gave great examples about. He just can't care less about them, that's all.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> I also find it interesting that guilliman decided that splitting the legions was the best course of action.
> 
> Even though the loyalists could have joined horus at any time but didn't to me it stands to reason that they're loyalty is absolute. Unless he had other reasons to want to limit their power.


See I view those Primarchs as jealous and hateful of Horus. Corax was known to have hated Horus in fact. The fact that Horus represented the vision and ambition of the Imperium, the fall basically allowed them to push forth their own thoughts after the Heresy.


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

I sometimes wish characters in 40k fluff would die in more banal and realistic ways than they always do. Someone might go ahead and post examples of that, but by and large any significant named character in a book will almost certainly die at the hands of an enemy character of equal or greater rank than themselves. Almost always in combat too. I realise it makes a better story for a major character to die on the blade of their nemesis, but just for once could someone die to, say, an orbital barrage; massed lasgun fire; mortar shells; waves of charging hormagaunts; tau overwatch; a vector striking FMC; the blast of a battle cannon etc. Maybe a bolt pistol shot in the face.

It's a bit like primarch fights where you know neither of them die at that moment. It can be fun to read but it kills the suspense a bit when you can be sure the lone marine captain surrounded by 1,000,000 orks can't possibly die because the ork warboss isn't there to kill him.



ckcrawford said:


> See I view those Primarchs as jealous and hateful of Horus. *Corax was known to have hated Horus in fact.* The fact that Horus represented the vision and ambition of the Imperium, the fall basically allowed them to push forth their own thoughts after the Heresy.


Pre-heresy? Where's that from? Not questioning it, just curious.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Squire said:


> Pre-heresy? Where's that from? Not questioning it, just curious.


Always question .

It's from Battle of Gate Forty-Two. It occurred after Horus's rise to Warmaster but before he was turned to Chaos.

Horus used the combined might of the Luna Wolves, Space Wolves, Iron Warriors, and the Raven Guard to crush a human rebellion on some formerly compliant worlds. Horus had all four Legions blitz the enemy "lair", as it is described. The quick war was done in hopes of protecting the infrastructure of the systems against a long-term war.

Corax felt it was unwise to use his troops in such a blunt matter...Horus and Perturabo thought otherwise. The attack went through. Corax lost a lot of men in a style of war he really didn't like.

He swore he'd never serve under Horus again.


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

hailene said:


> Always question .
> 
> It's from Battle of Gate Forty-Two. It occurred after Horus's rise to Warmaster but before he was turned to Chaos.
> 
> ...


Just read up on it on Lexicanum- interesting :good:


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Squire said:


> I sometimes wish characters in 40k fluff would die in more banal and realistic ways than they always do. Someone might go ahead and post examples of that, but by and large any significant named character in a book will almost certainly die at the hands of an enemy character of equal or greater rank than themselves. Almost always in combat too. I realise it makes a better story for a major character to die on the blade of their nemesis, but just for once could someone die to, say, an orbital barrage; massed lasgun fire; mortar shells; waves of charging hormagaunts; tau overwatch; a vector striking FMC; the blast of a battle cannon etc. Maybe a bolt pistol shot in the face.
> 
> It's a bit like primarch fights where you know neither of them die at that moment. It can be fun to read but it kills the suspense a bit when you can be sure the lone marine captain surrounded by 1,000,000 orks can't possibly die because the ork warboss isn't there to kill him.
> 
> ...


Its been mentioned a few times. _Raven's Flight_ is a pretty good source about Corax, his view of Horus, the Imperium, and some of the traitor Primarchs like Perturabo and especially Angron. In fact, I liked his view of Angron and his view of him the most.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

hailene said:


> Always question .
> 
> It's from Battle of Gate Forty-Two. It occurred after Horus's rise to Warmaster but before he was turned to Chaos.
> 
> ...


Cool. Someone else gave a reference before I could answer! :good:


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> The fact that Horus represented the vision and ambition of the Imperium, the fall basically allowed them to push forth their own thoughts after the Heresy.


In _The First Heretic_ we see Corax describing the Imperium as "the perfect Order." I don't think Corax hated the Imperium by any stretch of the imagination. 

His conversation with the Emperor in _Deliverance Lost_ further reinforces this point.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

hailene said:


> In _The First Heretic_ we see Corax describing the Imperium as "the perfect Order." I don't think Corax hated the Imperium by any stretch of the imagination.
> 
> His conversation with the Emperor in _Deliverance Lost_ further reinforces this point.


That doesn't mean he didn't have problems with it. Corax definitely disliked the Imperium. The only part that really showed any appreciation of the Emperor and the Imperium was the fact that it gave them "purpose." That could further be implied with what he called "the perfect order." There was a big discussion years ago in our forums about Primarchs and their culture being problems with the Imperium. It's nothing new, but I think where you at least don't see a problem with Primarch's getting along with the Imperium, there is definitely a response within the legion. The Dark Angels for example seemed to fit that bill pretty well.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

From the conversation between Corax and Lorgar in _The First Heretic_ and the Emperor and Corax in _Deliverance Lost_, I can not see anything but admiration for the Emperor and His Imperium. Not unless Corax had a weird suicide wish, anyway.

Could you provide me with some citations where Corax shows he only cares about the Imperium as nothing more than something to unite mankind?


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

Squire said:


> I sometimes wish characters in 40k fluff would die in more banal and realistic ways than they always do. Someone might go ahead and post examples of that, but by and large any significant named character in a book will almost certainly die at the hands of an enemy character of equal or greater rank than themselves. Almost always in combat too. I realise it makes a better story for a major character to die on the blade of their nemesis, but just for once could someone die to, say, an orbital barrage; massed lasgun fire; mortar shells; waves of charging hormagaunts; tau overwatch; a vector striking FMC; the blast of a battle cannon etc. Maybe a bolt pistol shot in the face.
> 
> It's a bit like primarch fights where you know neither of them die at that moment. It can be fun to read but it kills the suspense a bit when you can be sure the lone marine captain surrounded by 1,000,000 orks can't possibly die because the ork warboss isn't there to kill him.
> 
> ...



Rynn's world, three of the main characters die to no-boss-cause of death. The chief Librarian and High chaplain die when a malfunctioning defence missile blows up the fortress monestary and the Captain of the 2ed Company dies when holding of a horde of orks. He dies to the sheet number.


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## Kayback (Jan 18, 2007)

CJay said:


> bolters design: It's too outdated looking, I'd prefer it to be bigger and look a little more hefty, it looks like an mp5 in size comparison on a Space Marine. Also it needs a stock. You shoot a rifle without a stock and tell me how accurate you are.


I do prefer the post, what was it, 2000? 2005? Where they introduced the slimmer, taller Bolter. The thing is the Bolter used to have a stock on the old weapon sprues. And there is plenty of artwork depicting stocks on Bolters. I do think with the increased strength and bones of a Marine, coupled with the power armour they probably don't NEED stocks. Also SM's are meant to be shock troops, up close and personal, tearing the guts out of the enemy army. I don't think you need a stock to place accurate body shots on an enemy at 30m when you're a 2m tall power armour wearing superhuman. 









I so agree with calling BS on Marine loss rates. While you will always lose some in combat it should be more akin to fighting the blind school. I agree the enemies of the Imperium are also good, but if an IG army doesn't get wiped out to a man in seconds then against the same enemies a squad of SM should stomp all over them. In the fluff universe there are too many things that can kill a Marine too easily. Heck Cain, Gaunt and Eisenhorn knock off traitor Marines with little difficulty. I know the idea is to put the hero faction above the others in a story but I just read a Cain novel where a Genestealer kills a Terminator in about 3 seconds, while Cain fights them hand to hand for ages. Really? 

I don't understand a Tyranid invasion. Surely all that is needed is some mycetic spores? Like a virus bomb that melts an entire world into goop (and then ignites it, true). Goop a world, suck it up, move on. No invasion, no chance of losing.

And MISSING WITH A LASGUN. WTH? HOW? Really if you can see it, you should be able to hit it. No windage, no bullet drop, no recoil, no nothing that makes shooting hard. The only two possible issues I can see are 1) the beam may take some time to burn through the target, even if it is one or two micro seconds then keeping it on target to do damage could be a problem, 2) beam attenuation in a debris filled war zone.

KBK


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