# Jump Pack Army Tactics?



## SynnerG (Jun 3, 2010)

So for funzies I'm running an all Jump Pack Blood Angel army at the moment. I know this is 5th aka Mech Edition, but I'm just not a fan. I think it lends to the fact I play Tau enemies mostly and they just look at my Rhinos and they go poof. Then I have to move 6" at a time as his 30" guns open up on me. I just like the idea more of JPs and I feel with the right deployment/movement they can be competitive. 

So far in my playing I'm finding DS'ing with the Decent of Angels rules is actually useful to drop meltas and pop armor. However, I always find them getting shot up by something else next turn. I also notice that when I DS and the squad I really need to come in to smash face fails his two reserve rolls and I have to compensate, usually resulting in me splitting up my forces and becoming less effective. So my question is, should I stick to DS and just learn to play better, or is starting them on the board, in cover/behind buildings, a better idea? I feel with the 18" threat range, they can make it across the board into assault turn 2/3 depending on enemy movement. Of course these guys would be hugging the edges of terrain to get cover saves, but not jump into it and a Libby for his 5+ shield and I'd have priests for FNP help as well. Which do you guys think? Or, should I mech up or gtfo?


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## Lord Rahl (Mar 13, 2010)

Keep it all as a DS army, just because the unit you needed on dosn't show, it dosn't mean you should end up slpitting your force. You should always keep it together and use the units that do come n to support each other even if it's not what was inteneded for them, it will take you a while before you perfect this skill and dont give up just keep tring out differant veriasions of oyour army until you find one that is suited to all purpose DS, also consider half on the table, the other half in reserve ready for DS, this will cause more confusion in your opponant and he will more than likley make mistakes. This will also cause a distraction and allow your DS units more time to survive and get their intended job done.

Hope that shed some light on things: happy gaming


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Descent of Angels has really helped Blood Angels do an all Jump Pack army, the rerolling reserves is very strong. The key to it is redundancy as with everything. If you have a unit that is key to your army then it's probably good enough to have 2 of them or more. For example you could make a 1500pt list like this

HQ 
Reclusiarch
- Jump Pack

Elite
3 x Sanguinary Priest
- Power Weapon x 2
- Jump Pack x 3

1x Saniganry Guard
- Chapter Banner
- Power Fist
- Infernus Pistol

Troops 

10x Assault Marines
- Meltagun x2
- Powerfist 

10x Assault Marines
- Meltagun x2
- Powerfist 

10x Assault Marines
- Meltagun x2
- Powerfist 

5x Assault Marines
- Meltagun
- Powerfist 

Now this is just an example, as you can see I hate tanks and want them all to die. This list will mean I will always get some kind of hot melta action. I dont have a single drop unit which i'm relying on to kill tanks. You diversify this, take some flamers, but just don't take 1 flamer always take at least 2. 

Aramoro


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## SynnerG (Jun 3, 2010)

I'm also a fan of redundancy of efficient units instead of going balls to the wall with uber HQs and the like. Tho, I do miss having Invul saves... haha. My current 1000pt JP list is:

Libby with JP
Priest with JP
10-man ASM (2x Meltas; Powerfist)
10-man ASM (2x Meltas; Powerfist)
5-man ASM (Flamer; Power Weapon)
5-man Honor Guard (embedded Priest; Melta; L. Claw and Storm Shield)

So that's 32 marines in 1000pts, two priest bubbles, 5-meltas and 2 PFs. As I said, it has a lack of invuls or 2+ armor, but the FNP should help out, and the priest has the Lance for more anti-armor and the Shield for cover (I could be talked out of taking the shield for something like S10 or Preferred Enemy tho).

I did have a list with combat squadded VV so I had two units that could descend and assault, but only had the 1 priest and could be singled out, plus those VV are expensive at 1000pts and I had way less "troop" bodies on the board. I feel this list *can* be powerful, but I keep losing focus and only have a couple make the jump in when needed and then I mess up and send a single unit on a seek and destroy to take out something juicy and then it gets shot up. If I start them on the board maybe I'll be able to focus fire more? Or I can pick like a place on the board in the enemy DZ as my rally point and try to land everything there and then move out. That would keep them on their toes instead of starting somewhere they know they can line up shots from turn 1. Any other suggestions guys?


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

If you're going to Drop is (which I prefer) Always drop in around the same place, try to single out a part of your opponents army and destroy it, then move on from there. Same as if you start on the table, use your superior speed to single out and take down enemy units. A sensible opponent will castle up to give himself maximum defence. Just try not to be tempted to send units off by themselves without support as they'll get singled out and destroyed before they can be truely effective. There's no one size fits all strategy obviously it depends whats on the table and how your opponent is playing it. 

Aramoro


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## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

BA Jumper armies are quite a competitive army, tanks aren't a competititve requirement but being able to neutralise and keep up with them is. A jumper army w/o VV though has trouble as it's really easy to use deep strike defenses and force the Jumpers away. Whilst they are expensive, they do the job of clearing bubble-wrap and tying up units on the drop which you simply need for this list to be competitive. 

Otherwise drop in a localised area to maximise your bubbles and concentrate your firepower.


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## Tienshinhan (Feb 5, 2012)

At 1000 points, heres what I would do:

HQ:
Librarian w JP: Unleash Rage and Shield of Sanguinius

Elite:
Sang Priest w JP and PW

Troop:
2x 10-up Assault Squad w 2 Meltas

Fast Attack:
10-up VV: 7 have Meltabombs (wanted 6 but had 5 points left over)

The plan being to combat squad the VV's and use them as primarily anti tanking.
The assault squads drop in around either: Heavy Infantry or more vehicles, depending on the opponents army. Hopefully sheild of sanguinius will be enough to keep them alive through the next turn, also, those VV's will take a whole lot of fire. Ideally, Id stick a storm shield on a couple of those VV's but I didnt have those points.

The main problem I see with this army is that there may, in fact, be too much anti vehicle.


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

I wrote two tactica articles on this topic specifically:
DOA:
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=104408

VV:
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=104412


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

Why would you need to deep strike anyway? Deploy and you suddenly don't need those land raider costing vanguard veterans


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

Tossidin said:


> Why would you need to deep strike anyway? Deploy and you suddenly don't need those land raider costing vanguard veterans


Because ideally those LR costed VV will drop in and multi assault at least 2 enemy heavy support choices the turn they arrive. Nothing else in the game can do that.


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

Except for when, oh, you play an opponent with brains who will just use weak units, or moving vehicles to block you from doing so. Also, since you are deep striking everything, he can use a turn to drive 12'' with all of his vehicles, so you hit them on 6es. 
It really isn't hard to punish vanguard veterans. And yes, I have a jumper army myself, I have tried them


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## gridge (Feb 11, 2012)

I play a large jump pack army and I never, ever DS. I use sanguinary priests and cover to get across the field reliably and with few casualties. Deep striking even with descent of angels isn't a sure thing and you are looking at no assaults until turn 3 at the earliest (unless you use vanguard but they do not have DoA). I can see that I'm likely in the minority when it comes to not using deep strike but that's my 2 cents. What I can say for certain is that an all jump army without DS can be very competitive.


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

Tossidin said:


> Except for when, oh, you play an opponent with brains who will just use weak units


I don't know anyone who does this as it's a waste of points. 


Tossidin said:


> ...or moving vehicles to block you from doing so.


How?


Tossidin said:


> ...Also, since you are deep striking everything, he can use a turn to drive 12'' with all of his vehicles, so you hit them on 6es.


If they're driving 12" they aren't firing much are they? 




gridge said:


> I play a large jump pack army and I never, ever DS. I use sanguinary priests and cover to get across the field reliably and with few casualties. Deep striking even with descent of angels isn't a sure thing and you are looking at no assaults until turn 3 at the earliest (unless you use vanguard but they do not have DoA). I can see that I'm likely in the minority when it comes to not using deep strike but that's my 2 cents. What I can say for certain is that an all jump army without DS can be very competitive.


Umm...VV have DOA once you put a jump pack on them. Read the rules for DOA. It states any BA model equipped with a Jump Pack gets the DOA.


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

pathwinder14 said:


> I don't know anyone who does this as it's a waste of points.
> 
> Oh, those guardsmen are a real waste of points aren't they? Those scouts that protected the long fangs, real waste, and those kroots, so useless waste of points right?!
> 
> ...


Any other questions?


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

Originally Posted by *pathwinder14*  
_I don't know anyone who does this as it's a waste of points. 

Oh, those guardsmen are a real waste of points aren't they? Those scouts that protected the long fangs, real waste, and those kroots, so useless waste of points right?!_

_If that's the only reason they were purchased, yes it's a waste of points. Any tournament player will tell you that. Points are too precious to waste._
_

How?

If there are vehicles and/or units blocking you from deep striking near your priority target, or blocking your charge, then you can't get to them._

_Good. I can assault the vehicles/units blocking. _
_

If they're driving 12" they aren't firing much are they? 

They aren't shooting much as there is nothing at the table for them to shoot at... Please take a moment to think about what I am saying before jumping to conclusions :/_

_I think you jumped to the conclusion I DOA my entire army. No where in this post did I say I DOA my entire army. In fact I agree with your comment on another thread of mine about how DOA is just a tool, not a requirement._


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

1: You can have units with other purposes than blocking, but that are disposable to do so if neccessary. For example, the scout squad costs alot, so it would be a "waste". But then again, they can do wery little vs jumpers, so sacrificing them so the fangs can live, could be a wery good idea. 
Also, I am a tournament player. I can tell myself it is a good idea!

2: You hit on 6s. And can be shot the next round, not quite worth it imo.

3: Didn't see that before after my last post ><
Well it does make more sence then. Vehicles that doesn't shoot (rhinos), and fast vehicles (speeder, BA) can still be used for exactly this though. Of course, it is all just theory talk, terrain and your deployment would affect it. In the end one could also just sacrifice one of the heavy support units, or deploy it far away from the rest of the army, buying you time to shoot the veterans if they succeed.

On another note, may I ask why you would choose vanguard veterans in a list where you are deploying? It doesn't really make sence to me.


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

Tossidin said:


> ...On another note, may I ask why you would choose vanguard veterans in a list where you are deploying? It doesn't really make sence to me.


Sure. It is a hammer and anvil sort of play. On turn 1 I deploy my HS choices on my back board edge and reserve everything else. On turn 2 (usually) I DOA my VV and RAS. The RAS open up enemy HS or tranports with melta. Then the VV multi assault any enemy HS choices that are still viable. By this time (turn 2) my opponet is in the middle of the field and has to deccide to go forward after my HS choices or turn around and go after my troops and VV. Either way he has to pay a heavy price.


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

Don't you think it would be more effective to use the VV points on more RAS and deploy? It is just so much more safe, and you can assault the turn you get into the enemys lines, instead of hoping that your vanguards lock their scary shooting units.


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

Tossidin said:


> ...instead of hoping that your vanguards lock their scary shooting units.


And that's the same assumption everyone else makes.  I don't use them in hopes they lock anything in combat. The VV are really there to give my opponent a hard choice: 

"Do I go back and take care of those RAS and VV units at my unguarded rear or do I ignore them and continue towards the enemy?"

That's why I DOA behind my opponent. Ususally my VV and RAS keep the opponent from advancing on me so I cna shoot them apart. If my VV lock or destroy anything that's just a bonus. Think of it like a bully who steps on your foot then hits you. With your foot anchored you can do nothing but fall over. My opponent's often feel the same way.

My VV and RAS anchor the enemy on their side of the board so my Devs and other long range stuff can shoot all they want to.

Hordes is often a problem because my RAS and VV get multi assaulted by one large unit leaving the rest their army to advance on me. It is by no means a perfect strategy but it works pretty well.


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## Tossidin (Dec 10, 2008)

Hmm, I dunno, that wouldn't really work against the armies I play, but if it works for you then have fun


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Deep striking vanguard vets behind an army will generally go detrimentally wrong. Almost every army, including orks, has enough firepower to deal with a single, sort-of-but-not-really threatening unit in a single round of shooting. So you have 5-10 vets. see how many survive a round of shooting from lootas, or 12 kraks to the face from long fangs, or even 20 bolter shots. You talk about things not flying in tournaments, yet you seem willing to spend huge points on a unit not designed to add anything to your army except mess with target priority, which is only an issue for a bad player. I am pretty experienced in tournaments myself, and i can tell you that vanguard vets used in that way do not work well. If you want a heavy hitting distraction take meph.


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

mcmuffin said:


> Deep striking vanguard vets behind an army will generally go detrimentally wrong. Almost every army, including orks, has enough firepower to deal with a single, sort-of-but-not-really threatening unit in a single round of shooting. So you have 5-10 vets. see how many survive a round of shooting from lootas, or 12 kraks to the face from long fangs, or even 20 bolter shots. You talk about things not flying in tournaments, yet you seem willing to spend huge points on a unit not designed to add anything to your army except mess with target priority, which is only an issue for a bad player. I am pretty experienced in tournaments myself, and i can tell you that vanguard vets used in that way do not work well. If you want a heavy hitting distraction take meph.


I never said I was running a lone squad of VV. You may want to re-read the previous replies. I usually run a 10 man RAS with attached Priest and a unit of VV. The 2 squads DOA as near each other as I can get them (mainly so the VV can take advantage of the priest). The RAS uses its melta to open up armor then the VV assault. I guess my experiences have taught me differently.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Feel no pain will only go so far in keeping them alive. The weapons that are normally used to take them down will either ignore FNP or there will be so many shots that it won't matter.


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

mcmuffin said:


> Feel no pain will only go so far in keeping them alive. The weapons that are normally used to take them down will either ignore FNP or there will be so many shots that it won't matter.


Those shots won't happen when they Assault after DS.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

pathwinder14 said:


> Those shots won't happen when they Assault after DS.


*sigh* a good player will deny you the opportunity to pull off a deep strike assault by using either terrain or placing themselves on the 2nd floor of a ruin. If your vets are hitting a unit, it will be a unit that will fold under them anyway, so either way they will eat plasma/ melta next turn


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

mcmuffin said:


> *sigh* a good player will deny you the opportunity to pull off a deep strike assault by using either terrain...


Example please?



mcmuffin said:


> ...or placing themselves on the 2nd floor of a ruin....


I don't see 2+ level ruins on every table I play on. Only abou thalf of them. Most of the scenery I play on is extremely varied, but as a T.O. I am spoiled for scenery because I built most of it. 



mcmuffin said:


> If your vets are hitting a unit, it will be a unit that will fold under them anyway, so either way they will eat plasma/ melta next turn


Mmm...sometimes. I try to multi assault with them so that they either take out 2 enemy units/tanks or at least get locked in combat to avoid getting shot at on my opponent's turn.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

pathwinder14 said:


> Example please?
> Put a unit into area terrain, forcing you to either DS into the terrain and fuck yourself up or need a 6 on a terrain test for a charge
> 
> 
> ...


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

Originally Posted by *pathwinder14*  
_Example please?
Put a unit into area terrain, forcing you to either DS into the terrain and fuck yourself up or need a 6 on a terrain test for a charge_
_I don't automatically need a 6 to assault units in terrain. Where did you read that? I just need enough distance on my difficult terrain check to make the assault.


I don't see 2+ level ruins on every table I play on. Only abou thalf of them. Most of the scenery I play on is extremely varied, but as a T.O. I am spoiled for scenery because I built most of it. 
a ruin generally has a floor above the ground level. I would question why your tables don't all have at least one ruin on them, they are almost a pre requisite to stop armies that spam beasts and cavalry, as well as maybe bikes. even without ruins, the statement above this applies. Use terrain. Deep strike denial by spacing units in such a way that you cannot deep strike safely_
_Sounds like you need to play on more varied terrain. Ruins do not have to be on every table. I have played on snow tables, desert tables, jungle tables...all of which may or may not have had a ruin. Who ever said ruins were a pre-requisite?_ 
_

Mmm...sometimes. I try to multi assault with them so that they either take out 2 enemy units/tanks or at least get locked in combat to avoid getting shot at on my opponent's turn.Multi Assaullts are also lovely, one of my favourite tactics, but a canny opponent will cop this tactic when they see you use vanguard vets and will probably have themselves set up to deny multicharges that you can easily win_
_Usually not. Most players are smart enough not to lump their HS units together in the first place._


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

pathwinder14 said:


> Originally Posted by *pathwinder14*
> _Example please?
> Put a unit into area terrain, forcing you to either DS into the terrain and fuck yourself up or need a 6 on a terrain test for a charge_
> _I don't automatically need a 6 to assault units in terrain. Where did you read that? I just need enough distance on my difficult terrain check to make the assault. Which will be 6" if you're facing a good opponent
> ...


Too many colours... just too many...

Midnight


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

MidnightSun said:


> Too many colours... just too many...
> 
> Midnight


hahahhahaha....too true.

Seriously though:

Which will be 6" if you're facing a good opponent
That means that they are in area terrain that is at least 12" to 15" in diameter if you actually want to put models 6" deep on all sides. I have never seen a peice of area terraiin that was 15" in diameter. That's a full 1/4 of a table on it's own. 

So....going back to reality....I will most likely always have a short avenue through area terraini that is viable to me to assault through.

The concept still applies - you need various levels on the table. Not quite as much as in Necromunda, but you still need various tiers.
But unless those varuis levels are in difficuult terrain there will be no problem DS'ing onto it.

The end result is still denial of a multi-charge
Against two HS units yes you are correct. Against a HS unit and a troops choice left back to protect them....I actually get more than you would suspect.

I am buy no means saying that BA VV are the end all be all. I'm just saying they are worth it if you know how to use them.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

pathwinder14 said:


> Which will be 6" if you're facing a good opponent
> That means that they are in area terrain that is at least 12" to 15" in diameter if you actually want to put models 6" deep on all sides. I have never seen a peice of area terraiin that was 15" in diameter. That's a full 1/4 of a table on it's own.


But that's assuming that you Deep Strike with one model in B2B with the terrain, which is a bold Deep Strike if I ever saw one.



pathwinder14 said:


> But unless those varuis levels are in difficuult terrain there will be no problem DS'ing onto it.


They should be in difficult terrain - if all you have is a couple of hills that are normal terrain to get up and down, you probably need a little more variety with terrain. Alternatively, you need some kind of small space atop a plateau or watchtower, impossible to Deep Strike into. Even if you haven't, you should be putting any HS unit that can into a transport (hatch shots, etc.)



pathwinder14 said:


> Against two HS units yes you are correct. Against a HS unit and a troops choice left back to protect them....I actually get more than you would suspect.
> 
> I am buy no means saying that BA VV are the end all be all. I'm just saying they are worth it if you know how to use them.


But you still space the units, no? It's not much good to protect a unit if you're right up against it, partially because you're open to a multi-charge, partially because you're obstructing their fire. I agree with you, VV are very effective when used correctly. Is this 'correct' way Deep Striking? Well, I don't think so, but each to their own.

Midnight


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

MidnightSun said:


> But that's assuming that you Deep Strike with one model in B2B with the terrain, which is a bold Deep Strike if I ever saw one.


It works liek this...I DS just outside of the terrain. In the assault phase I use heroic intervention to assault into it. I roll for difficult terrain and if I have enough on the dice I make my assault. If not it's a failed assault. Pretty simple really.




MidnightSun said:


> They should be in difficult terrain - if all you have is a couple of hills that are normal terrain to get up and down, you probably need a little more variety with terrain. Alternatively, you need some kind of small space atop a plateau or watchtower, impossible to Deep Strike into. Even if you haven't, you should be putting any HS unit that can into a transport (hatch shots, etc.)


It sounds like you don't play on varied terrain. It appears that you are saying you can count on having enough ruins or difficult terrain in your deployment zone so every HS choice can sit in them? That's not varied or random. Most games or tournaments I see only have 1 or 2 peices of ruins or difficult terrain in the deployment zones. There are other ruins or difficult terrain scatterd around the board, but deployment zones are not always optimal.




MidnightSun said:


> But you still space the units, no? It's not much good to protect a unit if you're right up against it, partially because you're open to a multi-charge, partially because you're obstructing their fire. I agree with you, VV are very effective when used correctly. Is this 'correct' way Deep Striking? Well, I don't think so, but each to their own.
> 
> Midnight


You cannot space them too far otherwise they will be unalbe to support each other.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

pathwinder14 said:


> It works liek this...I DS just outside of the terrain. In the assault phase I use heroic intervention to assault into it. I roll for difficult terrain and if I have enough on the dice I make my assault. If not it's a failed assault. Pretty simple really.


But if you DS out of the terrain, it effectively adds another inch to the amount of terrain you have to get through - if I'm 5" into the terrain and you're 1" away from the boundaries, then it's 6". Hell, if you aren't touching the terrain, you're adding an extra inch. You can be 0.0001" away, but you still need to roll a 6 to get into combat. 



pathwinder14 said:


> It sounds like you don't play on varied terrain. It appears that you are saying you can count on having enough ruins or difficult terrain in your deployment zone so every HS choice can sit in them? That's not varied or random. Most games or tournaments I see only have 1 or 2 peices of ruins or difficult terrain in the deployment zones. There are other ruins or difficult terrain scatterd around the board, but deployment zones are not always optimal.


1 or 2 p_ie_ces of difficult terrain are all I need. I can fit 6 Obliterators in that. If I had Havocs, they'd have a Rhino to get to those midfield pieces. Mech is truly king in this edition.



pathwinder14 said:


> You cannot space them too far otherwise they will be unalbe to support each other.


But you shouldn't put them in effective multi-assault range, unless the Troops are good combat units. They should be spaced far enough away that you can only get two or three Vanguard into combat, at which point you've got a real outnumbering problem.

Midnight


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