# Primarchs



## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

So baron just posted this




Baron Spikey said:


> *Dark Angels *(_Legion I_): Lion El'Jonson- Loyalist
> *---------- (Legion II): ----------*
> *Emperor's Children* (_Legion III_): Fulgrim- Traitor
> *Iron Warriors* (_Legion IV_): Perturabo- Traitor
> ...



And it made me wonder

what exactly happened to each individual primarch as in where were they seen last and/or how did they die?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Dead
Dorn:shot to hell by traitors on a ship
Curze: killed by an assassin.
Sanguinius: Killed by horus
Ferrus: killed by Fulgrim
Guilliman: Stabed by the anitheme(maybe?)

Lost Loyals
Russ: in the Eye
Corax: In the eye
Khan: webway
Vulkan: Eye
Lion: sleepin

Traitors: On daemon worlds in the eye, probably.


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

How did the traitor primarchs manage to kill so many loyal primarchs with only one of them dying (and not even to a brother but by a fucking assassin?)

also I meant like how did it happen? for example WHY THE FUCK WOULD DORN GO ONTO A SHIP FULL OF TRAITORS!? I understand that he went onto horus' warship but I thought that he was able to grab the Big E and get off the ship


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Oops I missed a Primarch, I didn't class Horus as dead- just in case you didn't know, Horus was bitch slapped into oblivion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Lion El'Jonson*- Sleeping deep within the Rock unbeknownst to any of the Dark Angels.
*
Fulgrim*- Possessed by a Daemon of Slaanesh (that's right, he's a Possessed Primarch not a Daemon Primarch) and residing on a Daemon World.
*
Perturabo*- Daemon Primarch residing on his fortress Daemon World of Medrengrad.
*
Jaghatai Khan*- Followed a Dark Eldar Kabal into the Webway.

*Leman Russ*- Last seen heading for the Eye of Terror with all his Wolf Guard bar Bjorn.

*Rogal Dorn*- Killed aboard the bridge of an enemy ship by Chaos Space Marines during the first Black Crusade (though I don't think it was Abaddon's 1st Black Crusade)- his actions stalled the Chaos Fleet for long enough that the Imperial Fists and Imperial Navy fleets pounced on the traitors before they could make it past Cadia, crushing them utterly.

*Konrad Curze*- Killed by the Calidus Assassin M'shen.

*Sanguinus*- Killed by Horus aboard the _Vengeful Spirit_.
*
Ferrus Manus*- Killed by Fulgrim on Isstvan V.

*Angron*- Daemon Primarch in the Eye of Terror, last seen at the First War for Armageddon.

*Roboute Guilliman*- Killed by Possessed Fulgrim, body held in stasis on Macragge.

*Mortarion*- Daemon Primarch who rules over a daemon world shaped in the image of his home world of Barbarus.

*Magnus the Red*- Daemon Primarch who rules the Planet of Sorcerors in the Eye of Terror.
*
Horus Lupercal*- Utterly destroyed by the Emperor, soul immolated by the Emperor's power.

*Lorgar*- Daemon Primarch who has remained inside his temple on the Word Bearers daemon world for over 9,000 years.

*Vulkan*- Missing, no knowledge of his whereabouts or when he disappeared.

*Corax*- Last seen heading for the Eye of Terror alone.
*
Alpharius/Omegon*- Conflicting reports, one, both or neither were killed post-Heresy.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Later. Not sure about dorn, could care less about the worthless sack, but ferrus was killed in the dropsite massacre where 3 loyalist legions were butchered in a supprise attack by several traitor legions. Guilly was ambushed by fulgrim during a battle that took place after the heresy and it was kind of a cheap shot. I forgot to add we took Horus down..... The rest just kind of left. Russ went to hunt down the traitors and a "treatment" for the emperor. Khan chased a group of DE into the webway. The lion was wounded and taken by the watchers in the dark. 

Baron should fill you in on the gaps.

Edit: fuck! Ninja'd.


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

why did Khan chase a group of DE? were they carrying a bone or something?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Get some men back.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

hippypancake said:


> How did the traitor primarchs manage to kill so many loyal primarchs with only one of them dying (and not even to a brother but by a fucking assassin?)
> 
> also I meant like how did it happen? for example WHY THE FUCK WOULD DORN GO ONTO A SHIP FULL OF TRAITORS!? I understand that he went onto horus' warship but I thought that he was able to grab the Big E and get off the ship


Dorn was probably sent into a trap. But no one really knows. To give Dorn credit, he did buy time for the rest of the Imperial forces to get ready for against one of the Black Crusades.

As to the traitor primarchs, we can only guess.

Heres what I believe they are up too.

Mortarion: I have no idea, as he was basically forced to go to Nurgle or suffer a most horrible death. In the eye of terror probably hating himself and sending his legion to give the same suffering his legion and him suffered.

Angron: Wants to start another Dominion of Fire or just be part of Khornes greater game after being banished for so long. Either way, hes in love with what he has been given.

Fulgrim: speaking about the real fulgrim, I would say he is in constant agony as his soul is being tortured for all eternity. The daemon is probably living in a planet full of pleasure him being the king.

Magnus: Sitting in a tower loathing himself on The Planet of Sorcerers, and forcing himself in thinking about what he did and that he did the right choice.

Logar: Probably planning to rule all the chaos legions in the name of chaos, I think he's sitting in a temple just scheming about how to destroy the Imperium.

Perturabo: He is sitting in his fortress hating himself, wishing he and his legion had been in Dorn's place during siege of Terra

Alpharius: I honestly don't know

These are just my opinions though

Edit: Spikey and Gen beat me too it. damn you guys!


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

They'd raided his homeworld of Chogoris whilst he'd been fighting on Terra carrying thousands of his tribesmen off, he tracked the Kabal down and followed them (with his Veteran Brotherhood) into the Webway when the DE fled.

Edit: as ever gen you're quicker than me but my explanations are slightly more indepth


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

I believe like Vulkan, Khan's homeworld was attacked by the Dark Eldar more than once. So to say that he had a bit of personal hatred for them would probably not be going to far all things considered. Edit - Or it could be that they raided his homeworld during the Heresy and stole thousands of his kinsmen; that works too.


In regards to Guilliman, wasn't he only wounded by Daemon Fulgrim and not actually killed? The blade itself was poisoned, and between the poison and the blow the wound was mortal, but before he could perish Guilliman was put into stasis. (Partially why there is hope that he will eventually heal and return even though that is impossible for so many reasons.)


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I can live with that. Lol

@dark,
I believe we are calling him dead because the moment, or a few second later anyway, he was defrosted he would flatline.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

darkreever said:


> In regards to Guilliman, wasn't he only wounded by Daemon Fulgrim and not actually killed? The blade itself was poisoned, and between the poison and the blow the wound was mortal, but before he could perish Guilliman was put into stasis. (Partially why there is hope that he will eventually heal and return even though that is impossible for so many reasons.)


The actual wording in Index Astartes is that the Apothecaries put his body into stasis as he died- note how it's never the Ultramarines who claim he's healing only the pilgrims who visit Guilliman's shrine.

Considering Fulgrim had the Anathame in his possession and that was the blade that could kill any living creature, without the Chaos Gods it would have killed Horus, it's surmised that that was the sword used by the Possessed Primarch.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Are you we sure Fulgrim had that blade. Cause I did some research of my own and it seems like it was destroyed.




> A shudder of unadulterated terror passed through the M'kar as it turned its gaze upon Uriel and saw the glinting dagger he carried. Its eyes widened in recognition.
> "The shard of Erebus!" Cried the daemon lord.


So I assume that this is the same Daemon Knife used to stab Horus. Unless its some other blade Erebus had that could banish a daemon prince that quick.



> The blade was rippled along its length, grey like napped flint...


_The Chapter's Due_



> Its blade was triangular in section and fashioned from some strange stone, like chipped flint with a glitter sheen to its edge.


_Horus Rising_

The similarities and its original owner seem quite the same. Do you think its coincidence or maybe BL screwed things around a little?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Well I haven't read_ Chapter's Due_ yet (I know, I know I'm woefully behind in my BL acquisitions), but those events are separated by 10,000 years- the Anathame could easily have left Fulgrim's possession in that time in order for it to appear in Uriel Ventris' grasp.

We do know that Horus gave the blade to Fulgrim so for at least a time the Emperor's Children Primarch did own the 'Shard of Erebus', if it's the same weapon (which is certainly plausible given the description and name).


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

It doesn't really sound like this 'Shard of Erebus' is the Anathame to be honest (although like Spikey I havn't read _Chapter's Due_). Going by your post then _ckcrawford_:



> The blade was rippled along its length, grey like napped flint...


'...grey like napped flint' to me seems to be describing its colour.

whilst:



> Its blade was triangular in section and fashioned from some strange stone, like chipped flint with a glitter sheen to its edge.


Seems to me to indicate that the entire blade was '...fashioned from some strange stone' which resembled a blade of 'chipped flint'. Which in my mind therefore is describing two completely different weapons, both authors just using 'flint' to aid in their description.

Also why would the Anathame be referred to as the 'Shard of Erebus' and why would Daemons fear it so much?

Just my thoughts.


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Also why would the Anathame be referred to as the 'Shard of Erebus'


Because Erebus used it to trick horus into being evil (kinda)


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

If it is one and the same it would be interesting to note that it can destroy (or at least banish) any creature, whether they're from this dimension or not- truly it could be classed as the most powerful, non-daemon, blade imaginable.


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## hippypancake (Jul 14, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> If it is one and the same it would be interesting to note that it can destroy (or at least banish) any creature, whether they're from this dimension or not- truly it could be classed as the most powerful, non-daemon, blade imaginable.


now how exactly did the kinebranch get bitchslapped when they had these weapons?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

They were weapons that were so lethal they were locked away, similar to the way you don't see us chucking nukes around just because they make a nice 'boom' noise.

The Kinebrach as a civilisation were old and tired, they more than happily integrated with the much younger and energetic human civilisation to form the Interex- it wasn't that they were bitch slapped, they'd simply become a very apathetic people in a certain sense.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Plus the Interex were very anti-chaos, and if the anathame is indeed a deamon blade, then they probably didnt use it for that very reason.

Back to the Primarchs.

*Rogal Dorn* like has been said was killed storming the bridge of the _Sword of Sacrilege_ to buy time for the rest of the Imperials to catch the fleet. His body is encased in Amber on the _Phalanx_ in a chapel, where as his hands are kept in two seperate shrines, with the heraldry of previous chapter masters engraved into the hands.

*Vulkan* is still completely unknown. He was said to have been present after the Heresy to object to the breaking of the legions into chapters. But the last sighting of him so far in the fluff was in the middle of a titanic explosion on Istvaan V.

*Alpharius* and *Omegon* are both unknown. On the planet of _Eskrador_ the Ultramarines led by Guilliman himself fought the Alpha Legion. Guilliman managed to find Alpharius in combat and kill him with one strike. The Ultramarines though this would break the Alpha Legions morale but they kept on going and soundly beat the Ultramarines who retreated and bombarded the planet instead. The account of Guillimans battle is widely considered suspect even by the Ultramrines themselves. Alpharius was well known for using decoys all the time, and it seems strange to see him killed so quickly. And with the revelations of _Legion_ this still leaves at least Alpharius or Omegon at large depending on which one was killed, if either of them were at all. But since that battle there has been no sightings of either of the Primarchs.

*Night Haunter *or *Konrad Curze* did let himself get assassinated by M'Shen. You've got to remember Curze was a very distrubed individual and some even say possibly schizophrenic. Either way he let M'Shen assassinate him to prove a point. To quote Curze himself _"Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication." _ Although there were still some who believed he may not be dead as M'Shens vid feed cut off as she launched herself at Curze and she was never seen or heard from again. But since the book _Soul Hunter _came out, there cant really be any denying it. He had become the exact thing he sought to destroy, and so had to be destroyed himself.

*Roboute Guilliman* exactly like Baron said, it's only the pilgrims and such that claim he is healing. Didn't Ventris himself state he did not believe it?


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

*Roboute Guilliman*

Roboute Guilliman - if he died and a few seconds later was frozen you would have thought they would have taken a blood sample and had 10k years to find a cure, a few seconds dead is nothing even these days and if an anti dote could be found the brain can last a few minutes dead before being revived or why not just remove his vitals and put him in a dreadnaught.

I think the real upshot is people would like to have a primarch around in 40k as very interesting charactors that they are and the whole 30k genres' popularity suggests this.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> *Alpharius* and *Omegon* are both unknown. On the planet of _Eskrador_ the Ultramarines led by Guilliman himself fought the Alpha Legion. Guilliman managed to find Alpharius in combat and kill him with one strike. The Ultramarines though this would break the Alpha Legions morale but they kept on going and soundly beat the Ultramarines who retreated and bombarded the planet instead. The account of Guillimans battle is widely considered suspect even by the Ultramrines themselves. Alpharius was well known for using decoys all the time, and it seems strange to see him killed so quickly. And with the revelations of _Legion_ this still leaves at least Alpharius or Omegon at large depending on which one was killed, if either of them were at all. But since that battle there has been no sightings of either of the Primarchs.


Also, it should be taken into account that the Battle of Eskrador itself might have actually never happened. The only source that the information comes from is Inquisitor Kravin, and his loyalties have been widely called into question (with some speculating he is a member of the Cult of the Hydra) and he has since vanished. Its now presumed by many that the whole 'Kravin affair' was just an Alpha Legion ploy to plant misinformation into Imperial Records.



MuSigma said:


> Roboute Guilliman - if he died and a few seconds later was frozen you would have thought they would have taken a blood sample and had 10k years to find a cure, a few seconds dead is nothing even these days and if an anti dote could be found the brain can last a few minutes dead before being revived or why not just remove his vitals and put him in a dreadnaught.


Firstly technology has regressed in the 10,000 years since the Heresy not progressed, so a cure is more so unlikely. Secondly taking a blood sample of a Primarch is probably widely considered Heresy and/or Blasphemy. Thirdly if the speculation is correct in that it was the Anathame that struck Guilliman, then a cure literally does not exist.


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

When you look at the Deamon Primarchs, seems like only a few exist who don't regret what they've done. Lorgar, Angron...

Mortarion had no choice, Typhus slaughtered the ships navigators and promised Mortarion he could find his way to Terra, when secretly he had already sworn his allegiance to Chaos and Nurgle, and he lead the Death Guard into a warp, and a trap, as they where stuck there, Mortarion had no choice but to turn to Nurgle to save his Legion.

Magnus was forced to turn when Horus tricked Leman Russ into making him believe the emperor wanted Magnus dead, and as the Space Wolves assaulted their homeworld, he had no choice but to escape into the warp and turn his back on his brother Space Marines.

Fulgrim was possessed by the blade, his soul may live on inside him regretting everything he has done.

Konrad Curze regretted everything, thus letting the assassin kill him.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

foulacy said:


> When you look at the Deamon Primarchs, seems like only a few exist who don't regret what they've done. Lorgar, Angron...
> 
> Mortarion had no choice, Typhus slaughtered the ships navigators and promised Mortarion he could find his way to Terra, when secretly he had already sworn his allegiance to Chaos and Nurgle, and he lead the Death Guard into a warp, and a trap, as they where stuck there, Mortarion had no choice but to turn to Nurgle to save his Legion.
> 
> Magnus was forced to turn when Horus tricked Leman Russ into making him believe the emperor wanted Magnus dead, and as the Space Wolves assaulted their homeworld, he had no choice but to escape into the warp and turn his back on his brother Space Marines.


I wouldn't say any of the Daemon Primarchs regret it at all (excluding Fulgrim, him being possessed). For the most part they percieve themselves as betrayed remember, not the other way around. 



foulacy said:


> Konrad Curze regretted everything, thus letting the assassin kill him.


Curze regretted nothing. He allowed himself to be killed in order to vindicate his life, methods and perspective whilst at the same time proving it was in fact the Imperium and Emperor who were the hypocrits and betrayers.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

CofE Summed Cruze up perfectly there. I knew Kravinn was considered to be in fact in the cult of the hydra, didnt know the battles source was just him. Very interesting. Eager to see if any of the authors jump on Alpharius/Omegon now in modern 40k setting.

As for saying Guilliman might be cured so that a primarch could be around in 40k, you still have Russ, The Lion, Khan, Corax and Vulkan(depending on how the HH novels play out) who could potentially re appear in the 41st millenium. Guilliman is toast, like CofE said their is literally no cure for the Anathame which is most likely what struck him, and again technology is even worse now. And the moment they take him out of stasis he will die, there simply isnt enough time to administer a cure if there was one


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## turel2 (Mar 2, 2009)

I wonder if there would ever be any new primarchs. :scratchhead:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

turel2 said:


> I wonder if there would ever be any new primarchs. :scratchhead:


Nope, never.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Nah, the technology the Emperor used to make them has long since been lost, and theres the matter of the Emperor not being in the best condition to do such a feat. And since half of them turned to chaos and cause the greatest civil war ever seen i bet alot of people would be against the idea even if it could be done. And i highly doubt we will ever see or even hear anything concrete about the missing two


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## turel2 (Mar 2, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> Nah, the technology the Emperor used to make them has long since been lost, and theres the matter of the Emperor not being in the best condition to do such a feat. And since half of them turned to chaos and cause the greatest civil war ever seen i bet alot of people would be against the idea even if it could be done. And i highly doubt we will ever see or even hear anything concrete about the missing two


The missing two appear and bring the emperor back to life :laugh:

That would be a cheesy plot twist. :wacko:


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

Even if they had the technology I don't think they would ever want to risk it again, after all, if Horus didn't lower his ships shields, we would be playing a very different game of 40k right now,


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well yeah for the better! if Horus didnt lower his shields then the Siege would have failed utterly, Emperor would still be live and kicking at full power, Sanguinius would still be alive, and probably most the loyal Primarchs


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Yeah I was just wondering if maybe GW/BL decided to change the whereabouts of the weapon. Because, at least to me, it sounded very much like the weapon. And to be fair to GW/BL, the book _The Chapter's Due _was very rushed and it felt like somethings were just made up along the way. Like the blade, and the Daemon Prince M'kar, who apparently is an important Word Bearer during the Battle of Calth... which sadly, when researching him I only found some mentions in the 2 books he was in along with 1 google search finding... my post. lol. If it is rushed, in the long term of things maybe most people wont look at that book as "canon." That's happened to some other books. Though I hope I'm using the right term. I meaning more in the lines of whether a book is ignored or not, kind of like _Battle of the Abyss_.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Night haunters still alive....konrad died that battle, the night haunter did not....and vanished past the eastern fringes to go into solitude for his own reasons.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

How do you know this? You seem to be treating it as fact so I would just like to see a source.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Seeing as Night Haunter and Konrad Kurze are one and the same, pretty sure if one is dead than so is the other. Unless of course, one learned to survive without a head, then one might be alive.

However, there is no definitive proof that he was killed, as the pict recording cut out just before the assassin took Night Haunter's head. That and the assassin was killed before she could bring the head back, confirming Night Haunter's death.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Yes but his death was required for his actions to be vindicated, correct?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Correct, with Curzes state of mind i fully believe he was killed, not only for vindication but because he had become exactly what he sought to destroy. 

Now i've not read the novel involving M'Shen and Soul Hunter but what perespective is it from, as i was under the impression that in the book it confirms Curze was killed and she took his head. Was it open at all to interpretation whether this actually happened? Either way i still believe he is dead but it cannot be proved by the Imperium as M'Shen is dead


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Konrads death is open to interpretation...

That night the assassin confronted konrad, and thus konrad allowed himself to be killed, to cease to be. The video feed cuts off right as the assassin leaps at konrad....

Konrad did indeed die that night, as he was consumed by the night haunter. The battle of conflicting personalities ended and konrad's love and hope in the emperor was disolved when he saw the assassin before him with his own eyes. 

That night the night haunter obliterated that assassin and fabricated the story of his demise spread by his former right hand follower, consecrated the illusion by leaving behind the very thing which once symbolized to him his authority in the emperor's reality....the corona nox.

Konrad did die....the night haunter did not.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Sorry but your speaking of this as if its fact, theres never been any evidence to support this and Soul Hunter makes it pretty clear he was dead, its never even been confirmed that he was schiziophrenic, it was speculated by some of his marines but never to a degree such as your talking


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Schizophrenic does not imply multiple personalities....that's diassociative identity disorder.

As for his death...it truly is never confirmed as previous posters have already explained. his death is never seen, or confirmed by the imperium, its similar to alpharius death....as the assassin leaped at konrad the video feed is cut off. Is gw/bl wanted to confirm konrads death without a shadow of a doubt they would not have cut the feed the moment his supposed killer leaps at him to kill him, as well as killing off the assassin before it could confirm his death to the imperium.

Is konrad alive? That's decided by the reader...personally I think konrad died that night, as the night haunter persona became the dominant and sole persona operating within his psychological locus of control. The assassin? Haunter could have killed her as she leapt at him, or purposelly allowed her to take his crown as proof he was dead, while that left him free to roam about the galaxy freely.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Have you read Soul Hunter? it's not a imaginative case, they celarly state in the book Curze is dead and beheaded by M'shen, they arent bothered that M'shen took his head they only persue and kill her when they find out she had stolen relics aswell. As far as im aware it wasnt left open to interpretation whether M'shen killed him or not, originally it was but as of Soul Hunters its certain


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lux said:


> Konrad did indeed die that night, as he was consumed by the night haunter. The battle of conflicting personalities ended and konrad's love and hope in the emperor was disolved when he saw the assassin before him with his own eyes.


Firstly, Curze had faced many of the Emperor's assassins before that night on Tsagualsa, thus that point is moot.



Lux said:


> That night the night haunter obliterated that assassin and fabricated the story of his demise spread by his former right hand follower, consecrated the illusion by leaving behind the very thing which once symbolized to him his authority in the emperor's reality....the corona nox.


Read _Soul Hunter_, M'shen is not only witnessed to have decapitated Curze, but is chased from the palace by the Soul Hunter and into space, where following the Eldar ambush is killed by the Soul Hunter. So no, Night Haunter didn't obliterate M'shen.

Konrad Curze/Night Haunter is dead, end of.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

That is word of konrad's most trusted right hand follower, if the personality of konrad died that night and haunter purposefully gave it to mshen, while instructing his right hand follower to play along which he would doubtlessly as his loyalty to konrad was unquestionable.

So end of story? In your perspective if you decide so, then yes. But as for mine? No. Similarily I do not take the word of erebus and kor as pure objective statement from the writters, that the emperor was ascending to godhood and would abandon his sons on the way.

Characters words have been shown to be lies, deception, laced with hidden agenda. And as said before they wouldn't have killed off the assassin before she could confirm konrads death, as well as never show konrads death directly to the readers via video feed. What the readers do get, is the word of konrads closest follower, which if haunter told him what to say and do...he likely would say and do.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lux said:


> if the personality of konrad died that night and haunter purposefully gave it to mshen


Gave what to M'shen? His own head?!



Lux said:


> while instructing his right hand follower to play along which he would doubtlessly as his loyalty to konrad was unquestionable.


I take your referring about Sahaal, you can hardly call him Curze's most trusted right hand follower, neither can you call his loyalty unquestionable.



Lux said:


> Similarily I do not take the word of erebus and kor as pure objective statement from the writters, that the emperor was ascending to godhood and would abandon his sons on the way.
> 
> Characters words have been shown to be lies, deception, laced with hidden agenda. And as said before they wouldn't have killed off the assassin before she could confirm konrads death, as well as never show konrads death directly to the readers via video feed. What the readers do get, is the word of konrads closest follower, which if haunter told him what to say and do...he likely would say and do.


You obviously havn't read _Soul Hunter_. Not only does it give a justification and reason for why the Vid-Feed cuts out before it shows M'shen taking his head, but it also shows the Soul Hunter giving chase to and killing M'shen. I suggest you read _Soul Hunter_ before making further judgement.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yeah you really need to read Soul Hunter. I'm struggling to see how your not grasping the point of this, M'Shen *cut off his head*, their was no trickery or decpetion involved, she literally killed him, cut off his head and ran away.

And the point about Erubus and Kor Pahereon is completely differnet, here they are talking about those characters opinions and beliefs. I doubt most believe what Erubus and co. though about the Empeor, they had no proof of this. Where as Soul Hunter did not think in his opinion that M'shen killed and decapitated Cruze or held a belief that was what may have happened, he literally saw her cut off the head.


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## mbatemplar (May 28, 2010)

I must agree with the conclusion that Kruze died at the assassin's hands. 

Even if the imperium doesn't know for sure that konrad died, the night lords legion is pretty sure that he's dead. When Mshen fled the citadel carrying the primarchs head, she was jeered by the legion members, which suggests that there were plenty of observers to the fact that he died. Also the top 3 contenders for leadership of the legion all are sure that died that night, which is why they are contesting for leadership of the legion and are desperate to find the crown (which they wouldnt bother with if if Konrad was alive). Even Konrad himself was not in doubt that he was going to die that night.

To me, the greater mystery was who did Konrad intend to succeed him? Currently, there is an interesting dynamic within the legion right now between what the legion has become and what it used to represent. Also, I'm curious to learn more about the terran element to the legion, which could be explored further.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

mbatemplar said:


> To me, the greater mystery was who did Konrad intend to succeed him? Currently, there is an interesting dynamic within the legion right now between what the legion has become and what it used to represent. Also, I'm curious to learn more about the terran element to the legion, which could be explored further.


I believe this quote gives us some insight:



Soul Hunter said:


> 'Many will claim to lead our Legion in the years after im gone. Many will claim that they - and they alone - are my appointed successor. I hate this Legion, Talos. I destroyed its world to stem the flow of poison. I will be vindicated soon, and the truest lesson of the Night Lords will be taught. Do you truly believe I care what happens to any of you after my death?' - The Primarch Konrad Curze.


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## GrimzagGorwazza (Aug 5, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> *Vulkan* is still completely unknown. He was said to have been present after the Heresy to object to the breaking of the legions into chapters. But the last sighting of him so far in the fluff was in the middle of a titanic explosion on Istvaan V.



I hope they fill this out a little in later HH books, i've only just finished Fulgrim and i've gotta say it seems to be written as if he's died on Istvaan V. It never comes out and actually says it but it mentions that the part of the line he was on had been completely overrun and whilst it mentions that Corax got our safely nothing is said about the salamanders apart from a handfull of the boys in green and the iron hands escaped on a stormbird. You would think that if he escaped he would have been mentioned in the scene, but then you would expect Fulgrim and Horus to bring it up if he had died. Weird.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I know what you mean but theres no way thats how Vulkan will be killed or dealt with, its just too simple and mundane, i dont know how they will work it out. Corax was already changed around in Ravens Flight. In Fulgrim they say a few Raven Guard broke through with a greviously injured Corax. But in Ravens Flight Corax seems completely fine and uninjured and is rescued months after the battle and is still fine then. So i imagine they will change Vulkan somehow aswell


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

It is hinted somewhat in _Salamanders_ that he is still alive, or at least he survived and left relics in distant worlds. In _Salamanders_, an ancient box was found along with the remaining elements of a lost half company of ancient Salamander armor with one very very old Salamander who died and wasn't able to give any hint before death. Basically they all died throughout the years of war with the Iron Warriors and orks.


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