# are custodes on the same power level as a primarch



## Emperorguard500 (May 5, 2010)

custodes are stronger then space marines

primarchs are, of course, stronger then space marines

are primarchs and custodes pretty much on the same level, or are the primarchs stronger then then as well.....

what different process did the emperor use to create the primarchs then the custodes


*if i remember constatin valdor, the chief custodian, beat Horus in a sparring match*


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Emperorguard500 said:


> custodes are stronger then space marines


From what we've seen, they are...a bit. 

Not overwhelmingly so. Not all Space Marines or Custodes are equally powerful. Still, I would say the average Custode would beat the average Space Marine.



Emperorguard500 said:


> are primarchs and custodes pretty much on the same level, or are the primarchs stronger then then as well.....


Primarchs completely and utterly crush a Custode.

We've seen Space Marines fight Custodes. The Custodes have usually gone the better of it (minus the fiasco that was _The Outcast Dead_), but usually not by much.

Primarchs rampage through Space Marines like Space Marines go through people. And that's quickly and messily.



Emperorguard500 said:


> what different process did the emperor use to create the primarchs then the custodes


Unknown. The two things I can recall about their process comes from _The First Heretic_. One, that the process is more rarefied and time-consuming process that does not shackle them with any loyalties outside the Emperor.

That and the Custodes are closer to the Emperor in terms of blood than Space Marines.

Whether they're as close, closer, or less close than the Primarchs is unknown.



Emperorguard500 said:


> *if i remember constatin valdor, the chief custodian, beat Horus in a sparring match*


I've looked for this passage and I've never found it. I'm less sure about the older material, if someone could link it...

Anyway, I don't know the specifics of the duel. After all, Loken beat Luci in a duel as well. Does that mean Loken is superior or even close to Luci's skills? No.

We need to know about the specifics of the duel. Maybe Horus gave him a handicap or something.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Emperorguard500 said:


> custodes are stronger then space marines
> 
> primarchs are, of course, stronger then space marines
> 
> are primarchs and custodes pretty much on the same level, or are the primarchs stronger then then as well.....


1000 is greater than 1. 10 is greater than 1. 1000 =/= 10

Have you read any of the HH books with custodes in them? I mean, come on, seriously? 

I suggest you read _Outcast Dead_ (World Eaters vs custodes), _Blood Games_ (very relevant comparison of SM and custodes), _First Heretic_ (Word Bearers vs. custodes), _A Thousand Sons_ (Thousand Sons vs. custodes) 



> what different process did the emperor use to create the primarchs then the custodes


We don't know the details, but the custodes creation process is described as a more painstaking process. In comparison, the Astartes creation process is simplified and more suited to mass production 



> if i remember constatin valdor, the chief custodian, beat Horus in a sparring match


See this thread: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=97074

No one could provide the alleged source. Either it doesn't exist or it's really outdated and no one can dig it up


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Like Monty said, as it turned out, none of us could find anything to support that claim. Regardless of if it's true or just really old, I always thought it was Valdor fought to a draw against Horus, never beat him. And the outcome of a duel is no way to decide who is better, Horus could very easily of been holding himself back so that he didn't kill or seriously injure Constatin


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## Nashnir (Apr 3, 2010)

On an average Custodians are stronger than Space Marines.
Compared to a primarch; I would say they would say they wouldn't be killed as easily, but still be killed.

I actually preferred the description of Custodians in Garro: Sword of truth.

I mean will the Emperor really keep them as his personal bodyguards if they weren't good. While there are titbits in the HH series that has made them look awesome on the whole they have been portrayed as just arrogant, annoying jerks who underestimate everyone around them and fall into a an open manhole.

It is like the Authors portray the Custodians as awesome and then use them to prove how awesome someone else is. This is the point that gets on my nerves.

If there is one request I have to the authors it is that please make the Custodians more awesome. I mean far more than what they are now.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Nashnir said:


> they have been portrayed as just arrogant, annoying jerks who underestimate everyone around them and fall into a an open manhole


teh bestest warriorz, right up until they face the characters being followed in the plot line of the book. Then they are cannon fodder. Completely agreed.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

Short answer: no.
Long answer: no.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

I thought the Custodian's discussion with Rogal Dorn in Blood Games to be very strange. I've not got it to hand but it went something like
Dorn - Stand down otherwise I'll have to hurt you
Custodian - You could try
To me this seems the epitomy of arrogance that they think a Primarch couldn't hurt them let alone kill them. I know my recollection isn't perfect, perhaps someone could post the actual conversation.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Nashnir said:


> It is like the Authors portray the Custodians as awesome and then use them to prove how awesome someone else is. This is the point that gets on my nerves.
> 
> If there is one request I have to the authors it is that please make the Custodians more awesome. I mean far more than what they are now.


I think ADB gave them a pretty fair representation in _The First Heretic_. They're pretty bad ass. One of them manages to kill...3 marines, was it? in a heart beat. The rest gave better than they got.

Aquillon constantly beat down Argel Tal. Hands down.

Even outnumbered by a squad of possessed Space Marines, the custodes killed as many as they lost.



zerachiel76 said:


> I thought the Custodian's discussion with Rogal Dorn in Blood Games to be very strange. I've not got it to hand but it went something like
> Dorn - Stand down otherwise I'll have to hurt you
> Custodian - You could try
> To me this seems the epitomy of arrogance that they think a Primarch couldn't hurt them let alone kill them. I know my recollection isn't perfect, perhaps someone could post the actual conversation.


I would like to say the custodes were thinking more laterally. I don't think they believed they could fight a Primarch 2vs1, much less a Primarch backed up by a squad of Space Marines.

They knew that Dorn didn't want to kill them, so they could use that to their advantage to nab the "traitor" and escape.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I think one of the key factors in comparing the Custodes and Astartes was raised in The First Heretic; the way they fight. The Custodes are lions, individually powerful who fight alone.* The Astartes are wolves, a pack working together, the squad a perfectly efficient machine. 

So one on one the Custodes typically have the advantage, they're a little bit stronger, faster, more skilled. On the battlefield things change as suddenly it's more about unit tactics than an individuals fighting skills.

*Though real lions do work together, it's simply an analogy.


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## soonergold (Mar 9, 2011)

zerachiel76 said:


> I thought the Custodian's discussion with Rogal Dorn in Blood Games to be very strange. I've not got it to hand but it went something like
> Dorn - Stand down otherwise I'll have to hurt you
> Custodian - You could try
> To me this seems the epitomy of arrogance that they think a Primarch couldn't hurt them let alone kill them. I know my recollection isn't perfect, perhaps someone could post the actual conversation.


Wasn't that Amon? Who is probably one of the most powerful Custodes, so who knows. I always fancied the Custode experiment as the first 'primarch' process, but it was just going to take too long. In one of the books, a Custode counters a comment about the Primarchs with the fact that the Custodes were the Emperor's chosen.

And the Custodes are never not with the Emperor. Even when he is locked away working on the webway and Malcador doesn't have access to him, Valdor and the other chosen are there. He wouldn't keep weaklings with him.


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## mob16151 (Oct 20, 2011)

Obviously were going to need a book detailing whats happens once Magnus breaches the Imperial webway.


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## Nashnir (Apr 3, 2010)

mob16151 said:


> Obviously were going to need a book detailing whats happens once Magnus breaches the Imperial webway.


I wouldn't mind the entire Heresy series spinoff from the POV of the Custodians.


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## ntaw (Jul 20, 2012)

Nashnir said:


> I wouldn't mind the entire Heresy series spinoff from the POV of the Custodians.


It would have to be shorter...unless there is some real action going on defending the emperor and detaining members of renegade chapters that would actually maintain interest.


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## Nashnir (Apr 3, 2010)

ntaw said:


> It would have to be shorter...unless there is some real action going on defending the emperor and detaining members of renegade chapters that would actually maintain interest.


Well, as far as I know it is only after HH that the Custodians confined themselves to Terra. So there is enough gap to pump action, espionage etc in as one wishes.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

The title of this thread made me double-take.

A Custodes, on guard, seeing a Primarch coming at him, *might* be able to avoid or deflect the first blow. The second hit, coming a fifth of a second after the first, would send him flying, bones broken.


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## Nashnir (Apr 3, 2010)

Sethis said:


> The title of this thread made me double-take.
> 
> A Custodes, on guard, seeing a Primarch coming at him, *might* be able to avoid or deflect the first blow. The second hit, coming a fifth of a second after the first, would send him flying, bones broken.


Don't remember the source but didn't a handful of Custodians hold off Angron at the Siege of Terra


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

zerachiel76 said:


> I thought the Custodian's discussion with Rogal Dorn in Blood Games to be very strange. I've not got it to hand but it went something like
> Dorn - Stand down otherwise I'll have to hurt you
> Custodian - You could try
> To me this seems the epitomy of arrogance that they think a Primarch couldn't hurt them let alone kill them. I know my recollection isn't perfect, perhaps someone could post the actual conversation.


Here you are!:



Dorn stepped forwards, through the ranks of his Astares.

"Put up your weapons," he said gently.

The Imperial Fists smartly raised the boltguns to their shoulders.

"I meant everyone," added Dorn, looking at the custodes.

Amon and Haedo kept their spears aimed at the canopied throne.

"My lord, Pheron Sichar is a traitor and spy," replied Amon carefully. "He is using the networkes of his extensive mercantile empire to communicate with teh Warmaster and his benighted rebels. We have just cause and evidence enough to hold him and interrogate him. He will come with us."

"Or?" asked Dorn with a soft, almost amused smile.

"He will come with us, my lord," Amon insisted.

Dorn nodded.

"An object lesson in determination and loyalty, eh, Archamus?" he said.

"Indeed, my lord." replied the commander of the huscarls.

"They would fight six Astares and a primarch in order to accomplish their duty." Dorn said.

"My lord," Amon said, "please stand aside."

"I'm half-tempted to let you attempt to go through me," said Dorn. "I would, of course, hurt you both."

"You would try," replied Haedo. "My lord," he admitted.

"Enough," said Dorn...

After this, Dorn reveals that Lord Sichar is a double-agent in his employ and the story goes on.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Nashnir said:


> Well, as far as I know it is only after HH that the Custodians confined themselves to Terra. So there is enough gap to pump action, espionage etc in as one wishes.


Isn't there a theory somewhere that they have been engaged in a battle with daemons coming form the warp breach under the golden throne for the last 10K years?


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Rems said:


> I think one of the key factors in comparing the Custodes and Astartes was raised in The First Heretic; the way they fight. The Custodes are lions, individually powerful who fight alone.* The Astartes are wolves, a pack working together, the squad a perfectly efficient machine.
> 
> So one on one the Custodes typically have the advantage, they're a little bit stronger, faster, more skilled. On the battlefield things change as suddenly it's more about unit tactics than an individuals fighting skills.
> 
> *Though real lions do work together, it's simply an analogy.


You're pretty close but careful with the analogies. Lone male lions are quite strong, even without a pride, as is a lone wolf without his pack. A tiger might be a better example for the custodes. But I prefer an analogy to insects. SM work and fight like ants but a custode is like a spider. 



Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> Here you are!:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is a very good passage. And you can see that while they would fight Dorn, the custodes do respect him, using an honorific title. But it's not just the custodes who seem arrogant. Dorn himself is quite arrogant and perhaps rightfully so. But he also seems to respect the conviction they have to their duty.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Rems said:


> On the battlefield things change as suddenly it's more about unit tactics than an individuals fighting skills.


This is very true.

Look at history...European knights emphasised individual martial skill. Mongol warriors emphasised unit efficiency. When the two met in battle, European knights were slaughtered. However, I'm fairly certain that a European knight would win an individual sword fight (if the Mongol doesn't use his bow of course). 



> Though real lions do work together, it's simply an analogy.


IIRC lions have a very low success rate (when hunting) compared to canine pack predators. I'm also not sure if male lions cooperate very well with other lions. They seems to sit on their asses all day and let females do most of the work



hailene said:


> One of them manages to kill...3 marines, was it? in a heart beat.


Well, some Astartes captains are capable of carving through a large numbers of enemy Astartes rather quickly 

Vendatha's 3 kills are relatively modest compared to something like:


> Hibou Khan had fled, leaving *twelve* men of Aximand’s company dead by his own hand, and earning himself a place on Aximand’s death list.


Right now, the magnitude of the physical difference isn't very clear. Remember that custodes have better gear too. 

According to Abnett's conception, the physical differences are small (the mental differences being more significant). I like this idea


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## Quozzo (Oct 2, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> According to Abnett's conception, the physical differences are small (the mental differences being more significant). I like this idea


According to several sources, Custododians are not only well versed in battle tactics and strategies but also events outside of the battlefield. They play an important role on Terra in the 41st millennium by actively seeking out and eliminating assassinations attempts on the High Lords or Terra and of course the Emperor. This implies a higher level of intelligence than that of Astartes being able to predict, manipulate and trick others that astartes just wouldn't even consider, let alone have the ability to do. This is opinionated by i also think this applies to the battlefield too, some tactics they implement could be a classic pincer movement, which is not in the codex. On a one on one scenario they could use feints etc. which i don't believe astartes do.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> Well, some Astartes captains are capable of carving through a large numbers of enemy Astartes rather quickly
> 
> Vendatha's 3 kills are relatively modest compared to something like:
> 
> ...


True, but it's worth noting that Hibou killed twelve rank and file astartes. Ven killed a captain, chaplain and chapter master, without even breaking a sweat. Seems Ven was probably quite a big deal.


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## Nashnir (Apr 3, 2010)

At this point in the series I refuse to accept any description of custodians.
It is almost laughable that they are held in any regard going by the descriptions.
The authors do understand how good/awesome custodians are but they write themselves into a situation where the custodians encounter their main character and at that point all logic goes to hell and the custodians become fodder.

In my view I view them as follows

Emperor>>>>>>>>>>>>Primarchs>>>>>Special Custodians>>Custodians~Special Astarte characters (This can go either way)>>>>>Standard astarte


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Quozzo said:


> This is opinionated by i also think this applies to the battlefield too, some tactics they implement could be a classic pincer movement, which is not in the codex. On a one on one scenario they could use feints etc. which i don't believe astartes do.


The Codex is supposed to cover almost every possible battlefield scenario and thousands (if not millions) of years of combat experiences. Expecting that it wouldn't contain one of the most obvious tactical maneuvers is ludicrous. Equally ludicrous is the idea of expecting Astartes not to feint. Some (obviously not all) Astartes are exceedingly well versed in the arts of combat, even duels, and the rest are bloodthirsty and brutal enough to use any means available. I highly doubt that Custodes have any tactical advantage over Space Marines. Especially considering that battlefield tactics is what Space Marines were built for, but Custodes weren't.


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## Nashnir (Apr 3, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> The Codex is supposed to cover almost every possible battlefield scenario and thousands (if not millions) of years of combat experiences. Expecting that it wouldn't contain one of the most obvious tactical maneuvers is ludicrous. Equally ludicrous is the idea of expecting Astartes not to feint. Some (obviously not all) Astartes are exceedingly well versed in the arts of combat, even duels, and the rest are bloodthirsty and brutal enough to use any means available. I highly doubt that Custodes have any tactical advantage over Space Marines. Especially considering that battlefield tactics is what Space Marines were built for, but Custodes weren't.


The problem is I really doubt the custodians even if they are better off alone are worse compared to astartes in normal battlefield combat.
I mean look at Battle of Gyros-Thravian.
1000 custodians and the Emperor slay 100,000 orks with only 3 custodians dead.
The astartes were built as a conquering army only because they are comparatively easier to mass produce.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Nashnir said:


> The problem is I really doubt the custodians even if they are better off alone are worse compared to astartes in normal battlefield combat.


I never said they were.

Though given that Marines (and in particular the Legions) have access to a wider array of weapon and vehicle options, I would think they'd have an advantage in terms of tactical and strategic flexibility.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

soonergold said:


> And the Custodes are never not with the Emperor. Even when he is locked away working on the webway and Malcador doesn't have access to him, Valdor and the other chosen are there. He wouldn't keep weaklings with him.


Valdor was on Prospero then. :wink:


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> True, but it's worth noting that Hibou killed twelve rank and file astartes. Ven killed a captain, chaplain and chapter master, without even breaking a sweat. Seems Ven was probably quite a big deal.


I'm sure Ven was a big deal. In fact, ADB said this:


Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> True, but Vendatha was an incredibly skilled Custodian. They're not all like him.


However, Ven did have the element of surprise. 

Those three Word Bearers were caught off-guard. Don't get me wrong. Everyone was on edge, but the Wordbearers weren't going to attack first, and I don't think they were expecting Ven to explode into sudden violence. The initiating side generally has an advantage over the side forced to react. 

...and in fairness, Hibou Khan's first victim was Aximand himself, an enemy renowned enemy captain.



Quozzo said:


> This implies a higher level of intelligence than that of Astartes being able to predict, manipulate and trick others that astartes just wouldn't even consider, let alone have the ability to do.


Raven Guard and Alpha Legion are very good at stealth, surprise, manipulation etc. 

Although on average, custodians should be much better functioning alone as unconventional one-man operatives. 

Astartes should be much better at battlefield maneuvres. In The First Heretic, the custodians' unit formation is considered sloppy by the Word Bearers looking on


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## Nashnir (Apr 3, 2010)

I believe the problem with the debate is everyone in one way or the other agree the Custodians are better in martial skills with a little deviation for special characters.

What irritates people who are on the custodians side is not who is stronger but who is dumber. The entire series have shown the custodians to be at no better intelligence level than Orks.


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## Cowbellicus (Apr 10, 2012)

Nashnir said:


> Emperor>>>>>>>>>>>>Primarchs>>>>>Special Custodians>>Custodians~Special Astarte characters (This can go either way)>>>>>Standard astarte


That's pretty much how I see it, however much I hate it. The HH authors have fumbled this particular ball pretty badly in my opinion. Based on their creation (engineered from scratch), their station (bodyguards of the Emperor) and a number of other factors, it only makes sense to crank them up well past even an exceptional marine. They're fixers, and should be capable of appropriately epic feats. 

The HH authors treat them so inconsistently that they are absolutely boring to me now. They may as well just be commissars or something.


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