# Death company in 5th edition



## riskman (Mar 28, 2008)

Is it just me or has the death company been nerfed in 5th edition. With the new rules for feel no pain and consolidating into other squads they will die way faster. Not to mention the new rules for rending which will almost cut there kills in half. Please correct me if I have missed something but, I believe the death company have been nerfed.


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## CallumM27 (Mar 20, 2008)

Yeah its a real shame but at least we still have some form of rending and thing about other armies like the nids and orks who are almost completely assault armys will have a huge disadvantage. At least we have the tactical squad gun line


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## Steel Nathan (Apr 26, 2008)

*sighs* The Death Company had a good edition . But that doesn't mean they are worth NOT taking( like actually being bothered to be used). If you still do the old tricks with jump packs and Lemartes then your fine. We might lose a few more guys (thank lord for fearless) and try to get the first turn charge. More hit( from Lemartes ability) = more chance to get rending while to wound. But we'll never see the good old days of rending everything to hell. 

If only Death Company can get the special rule like the rumored 5th ed assault vets where they can assault when they enter the field......., that be sweet :laugh:


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

It's true that the Death Company are being powered down, but... it's hard to complain. I don't know about you guys, but I felt they were just a little over the top. You'd get like 40 S5 I5 attacks with Rending with rerolls to hit... you could turn almost anything to a fine paste with little effort.


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

Im very glad of this, i can enjoy the relative safeness of a 5+ armour save


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

The way wound allocation works in 5th, rending becomes almost useless against small squads, FNP got raped now that Dangerouos Terrain and frelling plasma guns bypass it, and yeah, no more steamroller assaults.

DC are still a scary unit...but at 30 points a model, you expect more.

Mephiston got his ass raped too. Can't FNP on Perils anymore, can't FNP against Meltaguns or Lascannons anymore, his Force Weapon is MUCH less useful now (doesn't work against daemons or nids)...before he was expennsive but usually worth the cost. Now he;s a 250 point liability

I'm probably going to end up playing Red Ultras when the new SM codex comes out


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## Steel Nathan (Apr 26, 2008)

If Mephiston had an invun save, he be a really REALLY scary person to face. But I'm not going to talk about him since this is about Death Company. 

Katie right, they were a bit too good for what they are worth. This tone downs will make them even and a bit more fair ( of course they can still rape units in 5th ed :grin:. And, we are not the only army that has been affected by 5th ed (negativly). So cheer up people and continue the Blood Angels' pwning spree :wink:


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Honestly, I don't think they're worth the price anymore. In bigger games, sure, but the fact we're forced to pay for them in every single game...that sucks.

It would be ok if they were *truly* optional, then you could just use them in big games, but for 1500 and lower, they're a points sink


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Galahad said:


> The way wound allocation works in 5th, rending becomes almost useless against small squads,


If anyone tries that crap of lumping all of the Rending hits on one model, smash them upside the head. I think it's fairly obvious that the designers didn't intend for this to happen. I don't know about everyone else, but I think this is blatantly taking advantage of a poorly written rule and really isn't in the spirit of the game.



> FNP got raped now that Dangerouos Terrain and frelling plasma guns bypass it, and yeah, no more steamroller assaults.


It was sketchy that Feel No Pain worked on Dangerous Terrain in the first place. Again, I think you'll agree that it's unlikely that the designers intended for FNP to work in this way. Also, the way I see it, no more steamroller assaults is a good thing since you can't consolidate into another unit. That means we won't destroy someone on the first round of combat. We can stick around long enough to finish them off in the second round and then charge something else later.



> Mephiston got his ass raped too. Can't FNP on Perils anymore,


Again, didn't make much sense and was sketchy at best.



> can't FNP against Meltaguns or Lascannons anymore, his Force Weapon is MUCH less useful now (doesn't work against daemons or nids)...before he was expennsive but usually worth the cost. Now he;s a 250 point liability


While I agree that it sucks that we can't try Feel No Pain against meltas or lascannons anymore, I think the ability to survive a blast from those weapons and not suffer Instant-Death is good enough. I also agree that the force weapon has taken a hit, but it makes sense what they've done to it. Besides, it isn't like everyone is going to be a Daemon or in Synapse range - that only accounts for a couple of armies after all. Surely not every multi-wound model will have Eternal Warrior?

Besides... Mephiston was always good at getting into combat with something juicy and ripping it a new one. I doubt he'll have much problem with normal units of infantry, unless they're huge mobs of Orks with power klaws or something. All in all, I really don't think the Blood Angels took too big a hit. We'll likely still be a 1st or 2nd tier army come 5th.

Katie D


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## Lax (Jun 16, 2008)

@Nathan : Beware, since rending is on 'to wound' dices now, Lemartes doesn't raise the chances to render, but to hit.

Fearless with FNP = If losing a combat (can be possible), say hello to a second wave of wounds in the face 

They got deeply nerfed, that's why I think about playing them in a land raider in 2000+ games haha


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## bl0203 (Nov 10, 2007)

The DC being toned down is a good thing, i feel that to many BA Players used them as a crutch as opposed to solid tactics. But thats just my opinion.


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## Lax (Jun 16, 2008)

I agree they were a 'no brainer' unit, but since all units in the BA army are more expensive than standard SM for DC reasons, this is becoming a flaw to us !


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## Steel Nathan (Apr 26, 2008)

Lax said:


> @Nathan : Beware, since rending is on 'to wound' dices now, Lemartes doesn't raise the chances to render, but to hit.


Yes I understand that Lax , but this is what I'm trying to say:

more hits that you get in with Lemartes ability= more wounding dice. 

More wounding dice= more chances to get rending hits. 

I know that 4th ed was better for getting rending, but I'm thinking of the positives that rending has(as in thinking of worse ways that GW can screw over Rending)


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## Lax (Jun 16, 2008)

For sure, charging with 5 DC is about 20 attacks, with lemartes, that's 10+5 success on 4+, that's 8 wounds on 4+ (against 5 without him).
That gives statistically 1 rending wound, max 2 
In V4 it would have been 2-3 rending.
So IMO rending is not a thing to rely on...

For FNP, after testing some games, I think I'm going to avoid flying DC and put them in a vehicle against heavy shooting armies... 
Else the squad has to hide behind a rhino for 3 turns and then charge, but this means that other squads are in CC, maybe even before them !

I've written a list here in this spirit, putting them in a LR, but it's so much power gaming, that I don't think I'll dare do this to a friend lolz ^^!


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## Steel Nathan (Apr 26, 2008)

Heh, Well I'm sticking with my assault BA army for now, until I decide to use the 5th ed Marines >.>. The thing that really turns me on there is that the veteran assaults can charge after deep strike( from the rumors anyways)


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## Sandalphon (May 26, 2008)

I might have to agree with Lax about transporting the DC in a vehicle come 5th. Too many of the armies I fight regularly have access to lots of plasma weapons... And at 30 pts per model each one of those shots really hurts. Plus, with vehicles being much more resilient in 5th edition it seems viable.

I'll have to do some playtesting soon!


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## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Considering what DCs can do they are cheap for the points - 5th ed. does not change that.


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## Steel Nathan (Apr 26, 2008)

Well really, are they really going to be that expensive? Think about it this way.... 

5th ed needs more troops. So more troop choices = more Death Company. In my 5100 pt list, I have 4 troop choices. Which is 4 free Death Company Marines. But in the bigger games you would get more troops, which = more DC. The points is that they arn't really worth 30pts a piece.


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## bl0203 (Nov 10, 2007)

The direction of 5th seems to be promoting TROOPS in general and for Space Marines HEADQUARTERS. The Commanders you choose directly effect your army and play style to great extent, which I think is really cool. 

I think the days of Lemartes are over especially in big games (except <1500pts and below). The Dante/Corbolo combo will be very effective; DC Control, FC, Leadership 10 across the board, and Preferred Enemy (which is ugly in 5th). Why take a Chappie who allows you to re-roll one unit to hit rolls on the charge when you can take Dante and get it all the time if he is in proximity. A 12” radius isn’t hard to do, add Corbolo’s FC on top of that and you have some serious hurt. Additionally Dante takes away from the enemy units BS/WS which allows us to hit most things on threes as opposed to fours. 

The DC are still very effective in 5th, we’ve just been spoiled in 4th and built our armies around these little death mongers. Now we need to use the BA as a well planned symphony of destruction as opposed to one angry guitar solo. 

We will do pretty well in 5th edition over all IMHO, were very mobile with our Rhino’s can move 18” and with finesse we can bring a very competitive list to the table. The days of Lemartes, two 5 man assaults squads and 10 DC are over IMO. I always like the Rhino TAC Squads and I think they will really shine if played right. Have a good day…

Posting in colors is against forum rules, especially if that color is a pain to read on the black background. You can use colors for highlights, but the majority of the post should be in white. Sorry -G


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## sprldancer (Jul 11, 2008)

I agree that thing or blood angels are gonna change, but i think your missing something about Lemartes. With the changes to combat resolution becoming much more vicious, simaler to warhammer fantasy, his death mask is the real prize with Lemartes. Giving a additional negative 1 to leadership with all of the new combat modifiers will just break enemy units.

just my 2 cents


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## Lax (Jun 16, 2008)

I second the two last advices 
I assume that thinking of playing DC in a vehicle brings me to hesitate between Lemartes and Corbulo for leading them, since they are not the only CC fighters in our army


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## bl0203 (Nov 10, 2007)

sprldancer said:


> I agree that thing or blood angels are gonna change, but i think your missing something about Lemartes. With the changes to combat resolution becoming much more vicious, simaler to warhammer fantasy, his death mask is the real prize with Lemartes. Giving a additional negative 1 to leadership with all of the new combat modifiers will just break enemy units.
> 
> just my 2 cents


That is a good point; however I want to end my combat in the enemies phase to keep from getting shot to pieces. Especially since consolidating into another unit is gone. It will be next to near impossible for your enemy to pass a LD check as is after getting thumped by the DC/VAS. Additionally I have a feeling that a unit with Preferred Enemy and Furious Charge coupled with a rending/power weapon or two will do just fine destroying leadership considering it takes a point away for every kill. :victory:



EDIT; Lemartes will always be an old standby especially in smaller games. I've had a good run with him, Lemmie and the DC killed alot for me, but the change will be good...


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Steel Nathan said:


> Well really, are they really going to be that expensive? Think about it this way....
> 
> 5th ed needs more troops. So more troop choices = more Death Company. In my 5100 pt list, I have 4 troop choices. Which is 4 free Death Company Marines. But in the bigger games you would get more troops, which = more DC. The points is that they arn't really worth 30pts a piece.



Nathan, don't forget that you actually *are* paying for those "free" DC marines.

Except for Terminators (who actually do get them free) and Assault Squads (who only cost 15 extra), ALL space marine squads that grant a Death Company marine cost 25 points *extra* compared to Dark Angels or regular marines with the same setup. Same price as a DC marine without a jump pack

So if you field tactical squads, you're still paying full price for those DC. If you field a jump troop army then the cost is less and it may be a bargain, but you're still not getting anything for free.

While I agree that DC are still a useful unit, I think the combination of nerfs and rules changes have conspired to make them *much* less useful than they used to be.

Unless you face an army that's plasma-heavy, the FNP change might not make much difference, but the attack resolution system *will* rape Rending as soon as people catch on to it. It's almost not worth having (considering you'll only avoid the wraparound issue when fighting hordes...which usually have shit for armor saves anyway)

While it's still playable and still useful, I really don't think they're worth the points anymore. 

I have a feeling that in 5th you'll see Blood Angels morphing into a Jump Only army (with attack bikes and the odd tank or two for support). You can already do it now, but the incentive to field nothing but 'packers has mainly been aesthetics until now. But now, with Troops being the only scoring units, having jump packs for troops is a big deal. Combine that with the DC Discount for buying assault squads and suddenly there's incentive to hit the felt with a big wad of jump troops.

The added survivability of transports and general powerup for land raiders means you might be seeing DC mounted in Crusaders (or that new flamer-packing raider if they let us have it), though if you do you won;t be able to take Lemartes along with you

All in all though, I really want to see what the new SM codex is going to be like. If I could, for example, take Shrike and get assault squads as troops (I'm not saying that's how he's going to work, but it would make sense), there's really not much incentive to keep playing my guys as pure BA. I could just run them as 'nilla/ravenguard and get access to all the cool new codex stuff.

Well just have to see how it works out.


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## bl0203 (Nov 10, 2007)

What are your thoughts on Veberable Furioso Dreads? They just became pretty cool IMHO. I used to Drop pod one but it was pretty expensive and vulnerable in 4th. But come 5th the re-roll on the damage table and the run rule really makes them pretty stout especially if you use cover and smoke to get where your going. 

@Gal, thats interesting that you think it will go in the direction of jump packers, I thought it would go the opposate with the new vehicle rules... I heard a rumor that Jump Troops take a difficult Terrain test when leaving and enterering difficult terrain come fifth. That really hurts. However I do agree there will be alot of DC cruising in Land Raiders, I just cant find the points to field one of these Behemouths.


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## Lax (Jun 16, 2008)

bl0203 said:


> I heard a rumor that Jump Troops take a difficult Terrain test when leaving and enterering difficult terrain come fifth. That really hurts.


That's why I can't completely second Galahad 
V5 is all about covers and speed, if you play assault squads as troops and devastators+rhino to have boxed moving bunkers, you'll still end with a hard to hide army.

I second the fact that rapid fire has never been in the spirit of BA, like stopping and firing, forgetting to charge, but an all jetpack army will lack of wargear.

So gathering points from cheaper DC gives a list that is harder to play, even for objectives.
Dropping a tac squad in a cover to hold an objective is in the spirit, making the same with an assault one and lose guys impaled in trees is so dangerous...

Now, it's totally possible to play walking assault marines with rhinos, use sprint with all the army etc...but since there is no rhino rush, the timing is critical.

To stay in the DC spirit, they still have furious charge, which still transform these guys in a Uber assault squad against specialists


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## Steel Nathan (Apr 26, 2008)

That explains alot Galahad. I knew there was no such thing as a free unit .
Anyways yeah I too agree that we will be seeing more assault based armies. 
Heh my main list for 5th ed is basically all assault units( with a tactical squad, attack bikes and a Baal pred). If only the Death Company can get the same rules as the rumored Veteran Assault Marines in 5th ed, then that would be sweet :grin:.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

Wht the Run rules covering Walkers, tougher vehicles in general, and cover saves for vehicles, I can see Furiosos becoming useful without the expensive pod, but it's hard finding room for them, especially with all the goodies BA have.

As for lack of wargear in a jump-centric army...that's what Honour Guards, Attack Bikes and VAS are for. Mobile Melta.

Who needs predators or lascan-toting tactical squads when you can jump in and melta the shit out of the enemy's tanks? Blood Angels make for a fantastic run-and-gun army.

And yes, it's DT checks for starting and ending your turn in difficult terrain. Though I suppose you can always walk out. I usually avoided putting my jump troops into dangerous terrain anyhow though, so just keep behind cover and not in it

That said, I made a razorback-heavy armored list for BA in 4th, I have a feeling it'll do even better in 5th.
I'm just smarting over how much my DC end up costing now that they're no longer super-fantastic


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## Wykyd (Jun 15, 2008)

IMO they got nerfed slightly, but thats fine, everyone sees you deploy the DC, and they point all kinds of nasty weaponry at them, remembering how bad they tore them apart in 4th edition, letting the VAS, and RAS get closer. They are a cheap diversionary unit that can kill stuff if they actually make it to combat. The past three games I've played I put them on point when I knew I would not get the charge. Let the enemy charge my 7 man 35pt squad, thats fearless, and has feel no pain. The next turn, I'll counter charge into the combat (or the enemy if they wiped out the DC with 20-30 assault marines, empowered by Dante and Corbulo. PWNAGE imminent.:laugh::laugh:


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

DC aren't a 'cheap diversionary unit'

They're an extremely expensive diversionary unit...that's like saying you should field a bunch of terminators on foot without deepstriking because they're a cheap way of drawing fire. You're paying 25-30 points each, even for the "free" DC models. Seriously, look up the prices for BA units compared to the same or similar units in the DA codex

Most of our DC granting units cost 25 points more than they should, because of that 'free' model. Our assault squads get a discount, only 15 points more than they should be. Only terminator squads get a free DC model for free.

So, yeah, your 35 point DC looks like a cheap throw away unit on paper, but in reality, you probably paid a couple hundred points for it.

So yeah, not a cheap throw-away unit in my book.


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## dopey82 (Jul 8, 2008)

a BA tactial squad cost 190 using the WD codex and come equiped with a vet serg and all have frag and krak included. if you use space marine codex a tactial squad with a vet serg and frag and krak it cost 195. a BA assault squad cost 250 with vet serg and frag and krak the same space marine squad cost 265. whats the drawback?


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

I told you to compare it to Dark Angels who use the same points format. Pay attention. You may as well be comparing it to an entirely different edition. The new Space Marines are going to use this same format.

DA Tactical Squad 90 points for 5 men, vet sarge, and the free pistols and grenades.

BA Tactical Squad 115 points for the EXACT SAME THING

BA cost 25 points more, because of the "Free" Death Company model.

Please pay closer attention. Comparing them to the old SM codex is inappropriate since that's not the same format that the new codices use. It was ooutdated before 5th even came out. The new DA and BA codices were designed with 5th in mind, and the 5th ed SP codex will follow the same design rules.


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