# Vengeful Spirit now available to order.



## Angel of Blood

http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/vengeful-spirit-hardback-edition.html

Didn't realise this was out next month, thought it was June/July for some reason. Feeling a little on the wrong side of apprehensive for this, hoping Mcneill can actually make a repeat of his success of _A Thousand Sons_.

_Mechanicum_ is also now available in Collectors Edition.


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## Brother Lucian

Lovely, been waiting for this one. Heard very good words about it from the early reviews. Pleased its out this soon, had heard like august for official release.


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## Lord of the Night

Angel of Blood said:


> Didn't realize this was out next month, thought it was June/July for some reason. Feeling a little on the wrong side of apprehensive for this, hoping McNeill can actually make a repeat of his success of _A Thousand Sons_.


Well having read it myself I personally don't think that _Vengeful Spirit_ is _A Thousand Sons_ quality. It's very good and great in more than a few places, but it lacks that emotional quality, epic tragedy and ability to create empathy for characters that ATS had.


LotN


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## Doelago

I see that the Horus tax is included. A 5€ price hike for the physical copy and 7.50€ for the audiobook. Awesome.


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## Angel of Blood

Da fuq?? Didn't notice that at all. Really BL? Fucking really??


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## Brother Lucian

Well 'enhanced' ebooks tends to be a bit more costly. Wish you could choose just a standard version.


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## Sevatar

^

The eBook costs the same as always (at least in euros).

I do love paper. But double the prize for the dead-tree edition? Come on.


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## Vaz

Nice to see it jumping on the Molech bandwagon just before Book 3 from FW:HH is released as well.


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## Brother Lucian

The Molech conflict was foreshadowed in the short story The Devine Adoratrice. From that weekender only Horus Heresy anthology, Imperial Creed I think it was called.


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## HamsterExAstris

Hmph. Looks like BL decided to get rid of the buy-multiple-formats discounts. That sucks.


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## Brobaddon

It's seriously pain in the ass to keep up with BL's novels. Still reading Vulkan Lives, and look, RavenLord and Vengeful Spirit showed up. Aint that nice  

You either have to be filthy rich or patient, which I'm neither.


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## Brother Lucian

Still suprised with how slow people reads. Learned to speedread from an early age.


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## jasonpittman

Forked out £11.99 for the ebook, as much as I think Black Library are ripping us off at those prices I just have to read it. Looks like I'm going to be up all night with this.


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## The Scion of Chemos

Angel of Blood said:


> Da fuq?? Didn't notice that at all. Really BL? Fucking really??


It is worth noting that VS is HUGE.
Significantly larger than most of the HH books. And at least the price hike comes with more pages, as opposed to less lol


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## Doelago

The Scion of Chemos said:


> It is worth noting that VS is HUGE.
> Significantly larger than most of the HH books. And at least the price hike comes with more pages, as opposed to less lol


And yet the audio version is somehow 4 hours shorter than Angel Exterminatus?


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## Stormxlr

Vaz said:


> Nice to see it jumping on the Molech bandwagon just before Book 3 from FW:HH is released as well.


I am pretty sure FW:HH Extermination is out. Who is Molech btw?


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## HamsterExAstris

Doelago said:


> And yet the audio version is somehow 4 hours shorter than Angel Exterminatus?


Have you bought it, or are you just going by the time on the page? The latter can't be trusted. (BL is notorious for copy/pasting to create new books... for example, _Descent of Angels_ listed the wrong narrators for a while because it had been copy/pasted from one of the anthologies and they didn't fix it before going live.)


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

The Scion of Chemos said:


> It is worth noting that VS is HUGE.
> Significantly larger than most of the HH books. And at least the price hike comes with more pages, as opposed to less lol


Longer than average HH novels. It's marginally shorter than _A Thousand Sons_ for those wondering.



Stormxlr said:


> Who is Molech btw?


Molech is an Imperial world which is the primary setting of the novel _Vengeful Spirit_.


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## Brother Lucian

Just noticed the ebook version of Vengeful Spirit is available for download. Pulled it to my kindle.

Edit: Finished it, a pretty good read with some suprise twists. Definitely one of the better books from Graham McNeil, even if it doesnt reach the lofty heights of A Thousand Sons.


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## theurge33

Once again...$22.50 for shipping! Does the $50 free shipping thing still apply? If so I will just wait until Ravenlord and order both...


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## HamsterExAstris

theurge33 said:


> Once again...$22.50 for shipping! Does the $50 free shipping thing still apply? If so I will just wait until Ravenlord and order both...


I believe they upped the threshold to $60 USD.


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## The Scion of Chemos

theurge33 said:


> Once again...$22.50 for shipping! Does the $50 free shipping thing still apply? If so I will just wait until Ravenlord and order both...


I believe so.
I ordered from them like 2 weeks ago, and $50 was free shipping.


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## Phoebus

I'm a quarter of the way through _Vengeful Spirit,_ and I'll echo what Brother Lucian said. It's a fun read thus far, and my only real complaint is along the same lines as my typical complaints of unnecessarily anachronistic stuff creeping into the warfare sections.

Bottom line, this far into the book, I think Graham did a largely great job with Horus. It's a bit jarring for Horus to be acting largely like he did in _Horus Rising_ (though obviously more ruthless) while _also_ condoning horrific rituals and practices within his flagship. Similarly, the Mournival - and Little Horus Aximand especially - are handled very well... with the exception of Abaddon being largely relegated in the background (Grael Noctua and Falkus the Widowmaker both get more lines and more insight).


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## Angel of Blood

Phoebus said:


> I'm a quarter of the way through _Vengeful Spirit,_ and I'll echo what Brother Lucian said. It's a fun read thus far, and my only real complaint is along the same lines as my typical complaints of unnecessarily anachronistic stuff creeping into the warfare sections.
> 
> Bottom line, this far into the book, I think Graham did a largely great job with Horus. It's a bit jarring for Horus to be acting largely like he did in _Horus Rising_ (though obviously more ruthless) while _also_ condoning horrific rituals and practices within his flagship. Similarly, the Mournival - and Little Horus Aximand especially - are handled very well... with the exception of Abaddon being largely relegated in the background (Grael Noctua and Falkus the Widowmaker both get more lines and more insight).


Roughly a quarter of the way through as well. Agree with the points you made, few other things I've like so far in addition to what you mentioned. Spoilers for up to Chapter Nine. 



Have quite liked the interactions thus far with the Knights Errant. Severian is suitably enigmatic and aloof, would like to see more of him, haven't quite counted him out of appearing later on again in the novel either. The other Knights, even at this early stage look to be pretty good and well rounded, obviously the intention of Malcador, though it leads me to wonder just how many Knights Malcador has recruited by this point. Originally I assumed, like most people I'd say, that there would be eight of them recruited in total, with the Sigilite then presenting them to the Emperor as per the fluff. But it seems he is recruiting far more than that, in addition to the eleven we have in this novel, both Garro and a Thousand Son are also floating about somewhere. No sign to this point then of any Salamander, Dark Angel, Blood Angel, Alpha Legion, Night Lord or Word Bearer Knights. Honestly don't think we'll see any of the last two, the Alpha Legion may be too secretive and manipulative for Malcador even perhaps.

Linking in with the lack of any Dark Angel Knights(slightly ironic considering their image), I wonder if this ties in to Malcador having not been certain of the Lion allegiances until recently, where as the Emperor by comparison appeared to have never doubted Jonson. Also worth noting that even the Emperor can't be certain of the Khan, it seems the Warhawk is too wild and unpredictable for even the Emperor to be confident of.

In answer to what happened to Kyril Sindermann and Euphrati Keeler and both free and active on the Terran orbital plates, spreading the word of the Lectitio Divinitatus, much to the annoyance of Rogal Dorn. But poor, poor Mersadie. Wonder how she didn't break free with Sindermann and Keeler.

And finally, still loving any scene Russ appears in throughout the series.


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## Angel of Blood

Ah also it seems my long time prediction of the Lion being the help from 'An unexpected quarter' that saved Russ and his Legion from the Alpha Legion attack was spot on. From the fact that Russ only mentions it as a brief passing note, I'm guessing that it will be further elaborated on in another novel or short. Appears to have happened before the Lion departed for Ultramar however.


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## Phoebus

Man, you and I have been calling the Lion saving Russ for, what? 3-4 years now? Longer maybe? :so_happy:


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## gen.ahab

That face….. that price tag. I've had course books that cost less than that. Not many, mind you, but I've had them. That being said, this looks fucking epic.


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## Angel of Blood

Phoebus said:


> Man, you and I have been calling the Lion saving Russ for, what? 3-4 years now? Longer maybe? :so_happy:


Must be about that. I feel suitably smug about ourselves.


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## Phoebus

Yesssss!


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## Lord of the Night

http://www.blacklibrary.com/new-at-bl/An-Audience-with-the-Warmaster.html

McNeill has confirmed a bit about what he is working on now. At the moment he is writing a HH short story about Tybalt "The Either" Marr after the Drop Site Massacre, and another story featuring the crew of the Sisypheum set after _Angel Exterminatus_. Both sound interesting, the former more so as I did wonder what would become of Marr after the death of Verulam Moy, and the latter could be good as I would like to see Sharrowkyn and Frater Thamatica again.


LotN


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## Death Nikorps

The story about the Sisypheum will be a Limited Edition Novella. McNeill said that at the BL Live and recently on a podcast.


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## Malus Darkblade

Just bought VS.

The intro is beautiful.

The speaker's identity shocked me and makes me believe Horus was not totally lost to madness/lunacy upon turning traitor.


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## Brother Lucian

Horus is a true chaos undivided warlord. He sees chaos as a tool to further his ambitions, instead of swearing himself to one specific power and becomming trapped by their particular urges.

Which is only reinforced by his actions later in the book, when he spends time with a certain fiery redhead. *grin*


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## Lord of the Night

Phoebus said:


> It's a bit jarring for Horus to be acting largely like he did in _Horus Rising_ (though obviously more ruthless) while _also_ condoning horrific rituals and practices within his flagship.


McNeill's interview mentions that;



Graham McNeill said:


> At the start of the book, it’s almost like we have the old Horus back. He’s gregarious and full of the big personality we saw in _Horus Rising_, but there’s a ruthless edge to him now that, while it was always there, was reined in by the better angels of his nature. Now it’s not restrained at all, not by reason, not by logic and certainly not by compassion. He’s just as clever at getting the best out of those around him, but he’s not a bit above a bit of horrifying bloodshed to make his point. Just as you’re thinking you still like him, he goes and does something horrendous…



LotN


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## Phoebus

I read it... I still think it's a little jarring!


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## sadLor

Hmmm, anyone else disappointed with the portrayal of Mortarion in the book? I really liked the conflicted version we saw in Scars but in this book...




He seems like a really bland bad guy you would find in some B movie, and lost all his complexity. He personally kills a bunch of his Deathshroud to help summon Grulgor back. He's obviously tainted by chaos in the way he shows up but Mortarion doesn't bat an eye and welcomes him back to the DG. He makes use of him during the assault on Molech as well. 


I hope there's more to Mort when the DG novel comes out.

Besides that, it was an enjoyable book. Glad to see Horus back, and he was portrayed very well.


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## Angel of Blood

I'm only half way through at the moment, but from what I've read so far concerning Mortarion, I completely agree with you.



In _Scars_, Mortarion seems to be uneasy with the Legions he had allied with, largely in due to their blatant use/misuse of psykers, consorting with deamons and the like. But now he's suddenly perfectly fine with not only using and welcoming deamon Grulgor back, but actually went through the effort of helping Grulgor manifest.

I know Mortarion has been distant and much less paternal than most Primarchs, but he still to this point, hasn't struck me as the kind who would just instantly slaughter his men like that, nor did he seem as dismissive of his bodyguard like Angron does. So yeah, not a fan of that part at all.

Kind of ruins his upcoming fall for me somewhat. It had seemed the Heresy series till now, was clearly setting Mortarion up as being completely against using psykers or making bargains, pacts, or consorting with deamons in general. Which would have made his fall to Nurgle, being his only way to survive and save his legion, that much more poetic.


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## sadLor

Angel of Blood said:


> I'm only half way through at the moment, but from what I've read so far concerning Mortarion, I completely agree with you.
> 
> 
> 
> In _Scars_, Mortarion seems to be uneasy with the Legions he had allied with, largely in due to their blatant use/misuse of psykers, consorting with deamons and the like. But now he's suddenly perfectly fine with not only using and welcoming deamon Grulgor back, but actually went through the effort of helping Grulgor manifest.
> 
> I know Mortarion has been distant and much less paternal than most Primarchs, but he still to this point, hasn't struck me as the kind who would just instantly slaughter his men like that, nor did he seem as dismissive of his bodyguard like Angron does. So yeah, not a fan of that part at all.
> 
> Kind of ruins his upcoming fall for me somewhat. It had seemed the Heresy series till now, was clearly setting Mortarion up as being completely against using psykers or making bargains, pacts, or consorting with deamons in general. Which would have made his fall to Nurgle, being his only way to survive and save his legion, that much more poetic.


You said it much better than I ever could. 

In his previous appearances, Mortarion never seemed to be overly cruel. Here, he's portrayed as a primarch who cares nothing for his own men.


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## Phoebus

Angel of Blood said:


> I'm only half way through at the moment, but from what I've read so far concerning Mortarion, I completely agree with you.
> 
> 
> 
> In _Scars_, Mortarion seems to be uneasy with the Legions he had allied with, largely in due to their blatant use/misuse of psykers, consorting with deamons and the like. But now he's suddenly perfectly fine with not only using and welcoming deamon Grulgor back, but actually went through the effort of helping Grulgor manifest.
> 
> I know Mortarion has been distant and much less paternal than most Primarchs, but he still to this point, hasn't struck me as the kind who would just instantly slaughter his men like that, nor did he seem as dismissive of his bodyguard like Angron does. So yeah, not a fan of that part at all.
> 
> Kind of ruins his upcoming fall for me somewhat. It had seemed the Heresy series till now, was clearly setting Mortarion up as being completely against using psykers or making bargains, pacts, or consorting with deamons in general. Which would have made his fall to Nurgle, being his only way to survive and save his legion, that much more poetic.


I second everything in the spoiler.


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## Lord of the Night

Angel of Blood said:


> I'm only half way through at the moment, but from what I've read so far concerning Mortarion, I completely agree with you.
> 
> 
> 
> In _Scars_, Mortarion seems to be uneasy with the Legions he had allied with, largely in due to their blatant use/misuse of psykers, consorting with Daemons and the like. But now he's suddenly perfectly fine with not only using and welcoming Daemon Grulgor back, but actually went through the effort of helping Grulgor manifest.
> 
> I know Mortarion has been distant and much less paternal than most Primarchs, but he still to this point, hasn't struck me as the kind who would just instantly slaughter his men like that, nor did he seem as dismissive of his bodyguard like Angron does. So yeah, not a fan of that part at all.
> 
> Kind of ruins his upcoming fall for me somewhat. It had seemed the Heresy series till now, was clearly setting Mortarion up as being completely against using psykers or making bargains, pacts, or consorting with Daemons in general. Which would have made his fall to Nurgle, being his only way to survive and save his legion, that much more poetic.




Well there is a decent gap between the two novels. Perhaps stuff happened to Mortarion in the interim that made him more accepting of the Warp. His acceptance of Fulgrim and the others can be attributed to his being right next to Horus at the time, and he's hardly going to contradict the Warmaster or let him know that he is uncomfortable with the things that Horus is permitting. As for Grulgor I think there is a story there, something has clearly changed in Mortarion since Scars, he would have shot Grulgor if he had appeared like that then. But now he is willing to murder his own men to let him manifest, obviously something has happened. I don't think it's necessary that he be dismissive of them though for what he did to him, he may just view it as a necessary sacrifice of men who have already sworn to die for him, so they can die this way and be of use to him.




LotN


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## Phoebus

All valid points, LotN, but the author should still allude to such events or changes, if that is the case. I mean, Graham was kind enough to allude to at least one other story (Iacton and Voss), so why not something as important as Mortarion fundamentally changing his principles regarding the Warp, sorcery, etc.?


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## Phoebus

Incidentally, I am *so damned tired* of the endlessly recycled battle scene wherein artillery for some reason doesn't shoot until the enemy is a kilometer away, the enemy gets to the anachronistically pointless wall anyways, and the melee - always worded with cliches - ensues. Graham McNeil is obviously a talented writer, so why does he seem to fall back to this trope so often?


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## Svartmetall

That book really needed proof-reading...


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## Roninman

Phoebus said:


> Incidentally, I am *so damned tired* of the endlessly recycled battle scene wherein artillery for some reason doesn't shoot until the enemy is a kilometer away, the enemy gets to the anachronistically pointless wall anyways, and the melee - always worded with cliches - ensues. Graham McNeil is obviously a talented writer, so why does he seem to fall back to this trope so often?


Was afraid of this happening again....


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## Phoebus

It's like, the characters are done very well for the most part, and at least half of the plot has some real value where the ongoing narrative is concerned (I'm still wondering whether or not this "pathfinder" mission will make sense by book's end; the characters themselves have kind of contradicted it's value once already). The battle fought by the Sons of Horus to establish their beach headway was also very cool, with the exception of the equally frustrating need for the author to pretend as if Thunderhawks, etc., *really, really* need to fly a few hundred feet of the ground/away from their targets.

*But that damn trope keeps making its way back.*


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## sadLor

Phoebus said:


> All valid points, LotN, but the author should still allude to such events or changes, if that is the case. I mean, Graham was kind enough to allude to at least one other story (Iacton and Voss), so why not something as important as Mortarion fundamentally changing his principles regarding the Warp, sorcery, etc.?


Exactly. In the book, it even seems to mention the battle in Scars with Mortarion and...you know who. In a chapter in VS, I forget which character but it mentions that character looking at Mort and seeing how his armor had been recently repaired and how the character thinks Mortarion had been in a tough fight. If this is referring to the Scars fight, then it implies that this happened shortly after the events in Scars.


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## Lord of the Night

Phoebus said:


> All valid points, LotN, but the author should still allude to such events or changes, if that is the case. I mean, Graham was kind enough to allude to at least one other story (Iacton and Voss), so why not something as important as Mortarion fundamentally changing his principles regarding the Warp, sorcery, etc.?


I agree that he should have done that, but if he had it might have given spoilers for something that has yet to be released. Not sure, it really depends on what exactly has changed Mortarion's views.



Phoebus said:


> With the exception of the equally frustrating need for the author to pretend as if Thunderhawks, etc., *really, really* need to fly a few hundred feet of the ground/away from their targets.


Do you mean flying off-course or flying a hundred feet above their targets?? If it's the former I agree, if it's the latter then why exactly is that bad?


LotN


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## Phoebus

Lord of the Night said:


> I agree that he should have done that, but if he had it might have given spoilers for something that has yet to be released. Not sure, it really depends on what exactly has changed Mortarion's views.


Worrying about spoilers for another story is not as important as writing *this* story properly. That goes double for a story meant to be set *prior* to the story you're writing _right now._. And besides, let's not make this into something it's not. It's hardly a difficult proposition to allude to something without giving it away, after all. :wink:



> Do you mean flying off-course or flying a hundred feet above their targets?? If it's the former I agree, if it's the latter then why exactly is that bad?
> 
> LotN


For obvious reasons, I would think. But this ties right back in with the silliness of artillery pieces that don't fire farther than a kilometer or so, or Graham's decision to contradict himself on the accuracy of orbital barrages from one story to another.

In short, it's contrived drama. You can still come up with great action and drama without dumbing down the tech. Graham himself demonstrated that in *this novel* - many of his battle scenes were absolutely great. I'm honestly stumped by his inconsistency on this area.


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## Lord of the Night

Phoebus said:


> Worrying about spoilers for another story is not as important as writing *this* story properly. That goes double for a story meant to be set *prior* to the story you're writing _right now._. And besides, let's not make this into something it's not. It's hardly a difficult proposition to allude to something without giving it away, after all. :wink:


Fair enough. I'm sure we'll find out soon what turned Mortarion from witch-hunter to witch-lover.



Phoebus said:


> For obvious reasons, I would think. But this ties right back in with the silliness of artillery pieces that don't fire farther than a kilometer or so, or Graham's decision to contradict himself on the accuracy of orbital barrages from one story to another.
> 
> In short, it's contrived drama. You can still come up with great action and drama without dumbing down the tech. Graham himself demonstrated that in *this novel* - many of his battle scenes were absolutely great. I'm honestly stumped by his inconsistency on this area.


That I agree is foolish. Artillery should be firing from much further ranges then that or it defeats the purpose. I can understand the concentration of fire if the enemy is solely Astartes because a glancing or inaccurate blow isn't going to do anything to them and is just a waste of ammo, but if there are mortal troops and tanks in the mix as there were on Molech, then long-range barrages would be effective at lowering their numbers.

As to the Thunderhawks I think it depends on what they are doing. If it's a strafing run then yes such heights are foolish, but if they are deploying Assault Marines then the height makes sense. They want to be able to view the target but remain out of it's range so that the marines can avoid being blasted out of the sky with one shot, from such a range hitting small targets like that becomes difficult, especially if the targets can guide their descent.

Might be worth asking someone to ask him at the HH weekender if it's such a consistent thing in his books.


LotN


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## Phoebus

*LotN*,

Like I said, it comes down to dumbing down the tech, seemingly for an easy way to produce drama. Look, even our helicopter gunships and fixed-wing aircraft can fire unguided rockets from kilometers away. They can fire missiles and launch bombs from beyond visual range of a target. Special operations forces deploy from propeller-driven transport planes from 10-20,000 feet above ground, precisely so as to not make themselves or their aircraft easy targets.

And then you look at Warhammer 40k. We've been shown often enough that Assault Squads with jump packs don't need to deploy from just a few hundred feet up. The idea that Thunderhawks have to act thusly ignores the fact that that they are a vessel capable of not just supersonic speeds, but of speed capable of _getting them past orbit._. It's part and parcel of the same dumbing-down of tech that in the Pandorax novel saw bombers flying low and slow, and a Catachan trying to shoot them down with his tank's gun... _by eyesight._

Also, what business do Justaerin have flying into a ridiculously defended stronghold on Thunderhawks? They have an *entire Legion fleet* in orbit, and they've destroyed all meaningful anti-orbital defenses. Why aren't they teleporting to their objectives?

In military fiction, it's the author's job to make the action - and the drama that arises from it - plausible. If there are valid reasons for the above examples to happen, so be it. None are given, though. In this novel, I think Graham did a very good job with the characters and their interactions/dialogue, but I think he just _defaulted to some pretty lazy conventions where much of the mass action was concerned._ It's not anachronistic in a cool, designed way. 40k is not about dumbing tech down*. 40k is about the loss of knowledge and its codification into religious doctrine, not about how the things human beings make in the far future inexplicably suck. Here's a very good example: melee combat is plausible in the 31st millennium because armor is so awesome, not because guns suddenly can't get the job done.

I'd love to have people ask questions for me at Black Library Live, but:
1. I don't know anyone going.
2. I suspect I know the answer said questions would receive.

* Yes, yes, I know. The are examples to be found that indicate precisely that: the idiotic hamster wheels or coal furnaces on starships, for instance. Human beings aren't perfect. Writers will sometimes err in order to make a thematic point. You don't take backflipping Terminators seriously, so please take other examples that go against the 40k grain as well.


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## Forward Assist

Was anyone else miffed towards the end of the book by...



The completely anti-climax of Horus going through the gate? I wasn't expecting MacNeil to devote hundreds of pages to the time spent in the warp but to not offer any insight into his, and by extension the Emperor's, time there was a disappointment. 

On that note, I felt the Perpetual's arc was a pointless inclusion. She knew how to close the gate, could've done so any time in the lady 100 years, and didn't. Her story didn't really offer any more insight into the Emperor either. So what the point?


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## Vaz

Phoebus said:


> Incidentally, I am *so damned tired* of the endlessly recycled battle scene wherein artillery for some reason doesn't shoot until the enemy is a kilometer away, the enemy gets to the anachronistically pointless wall anyways, and the melee - always worded with cliches - ensues. Graham *McNeil is obviously a talented writer*, so why does he seem to fall back to this trope so often?


Bolded bit. Hah, no.


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## Brother Lucian

A thousand sons shows he can write well.

I enjoyed Vengeful Spirit personally. Though I truly dont expect literary masterpieces from Black Library, its after all just entertainment and not written to win a Pulitzer Prize. 

If theres one thing Ive learned in life. dont nitpick it to death and grow sour and grumpy because the minor details isnt to your exact like.


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## Vaz

Not brilliantly well though. I've read through it recently, and one thing that struck me was how badly paced, and how god awful the actual speaking parts were.

The thing is though; if it's written for entertainment, there's a difference between suspension of disbelief which we've all got for these books, but when we're getting immersed in the lore so deeply that we can begin to question things such as why there are no fire-and-forget missiles etc and it actually begins to spoil the enjoyment because of that is where something "needs" to be addressed, especially when there's no viable answer. You can answer "because codswallop" if it sort of makes sense within the setting.

For example, they could say "short range direct fire only missiles were fitted as standard because when fighting against Eldar, their heat signatures were baffled by spirit ghost engines which meant that they invariably missed", or some shite. But when you spot fridge logic plot holes like that in the middle of the book it's fucking annoying. It's fridge logic for a reason, you should only recognise it after.

I've had several occasions like that reading Mark of Calth (fucking gash) that I wonder why people bother to support Graham McNeill when his ability to write a decent book hasn't been seen for nearly 4 years, despite churning around 3-4 year.


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## Angel of Blood

Regarding Alivia.



Just got to Chapter 18, and it confirmed my instant suspicion that she was yet another perpetual. I figured she would be from the moment she was introduced, I guess it was due to her just being supposedly a 'normal' person among all of the other things happening on Molech, she had to be important. That and just how unfazed and prepared she was for the events taking place.

I'll wait to see how her story develops, though if I was to hazard a guess, I would say her mission could be from the Emperor or another Perpetual, to further safeguard whatever it was that he did on Molech. 

Again waiting to see how her story develops, but it's growing a little old(no pun intended) that Perptuals are showing up all over the place now.


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## Brother Lucian

Angel of Blood said:


> Regarding Alivia.
> 
> 
> 
> Just got to Chapter 18, and it confirmed my instant suspicion that she was yet another perpetual. I figured she would be from the moment she was introduced, I guess it was due to her just being supposedly a 'normal' person among all of the other things happening on Molech, she had to be important. That and just how unfazed and prepared she was for the events taking place.
> 
> I'll wait to see how her story develops, though if I was to hazard a guess, I would say her mission could be from the Emperor or another Perpetual, to further safeguard whatever it was that he did on Molech.
> 
> Again waiting to see how her story develops, but it's growing a little old(no pun intended) that Perptuals are showing up all over the place now.


Regarding Alivia



I figured the Emperor did the same thing with this guardian as he did with the old guy watching over the Dragon of Mars, empowering them as ageless guardians with a fragment of his power. Much like Galactus does with his heralds. I never had the perpetual vibe from Alivia


----------



## Angel of Blood

Brother Lucian said:


> I never had the perpetual vibe from Alivia




Really? She seems to know both John and Oll on quite a personal basis, indicates to me that she is a Perpetual quite heavily.


----------



## Brother Lucian

Angel of Blood said:


> Really? She seems to know both John and Oll on quite a personal basis, indicates to me that she is a Perpetual quite heavily.


Hrm, must have missed that bit. Then I do concede they are popping up a lot.


----------



## Matcap

Although it started out quite well; I liked the progression of Horus and Aximand's characters,
in the end I was disappointed in the book because :

Heavy Spoilering, including the ending:



I still detest the perpetual story arc. Useless gimmick that I know will lead up to something that the authors will think is awesome. But really just feels tacked on to the whole. Plus characters that don't get harmed in any way and then get revived without explanation? At least do something interesting with them. The role of the perpetual in VS served no purpose whatsoever and when she "dramatically" dies having given everything she holds dear in her life to try and stop Horus and failing; Tadaaaa back to life again. Not only that but miraculously on the ship her kids are on, that is speeding away like crazy from the planet? At least the other perpetuals often had no control over when or where they "woke up" again.

If you ever want to read/see a story arc that does immortals justice I recommend the old Xbox 360 RPG Lost Odyssey. The main character is an immortal warrior who refuses (in the beginning) all emotional attachments to other characters. Throughout the game you can find "dreams" which are mini (written) stories about what the main character has encountered in his immortal lifetime. If you don't want/can play the game here are the transcripts of the stories: http://lostodyssey.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Dream_Transcripts starting with "Hanna's Departure". These small stories stuck with me even more than the plotline of the game itself, which is also pretty good so they come recommended.

Even better; watch/read them as they are in game, accompanied by beautiful music by Nobuo Uematsu here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSQ6nCiq5jY&list=PL4FE03279FA2A0C42





And 



The ending just screamed "Luke I am your father!" to me... + another loken "death" scene?? Come on... the whole thing was just the finale of empire strikes back in the 30k universe. Including everyone getting back together because they got saved by the Millenium Falcon. 


Which is too bad, I actually enjoyed the more "realistic" view of the 30k Imperium that is slowly sliding down into chaos (with a little C) due to ineptitude, internal power struggles and an insidious threat from the warp that keeps on growing. A bit more a song of Fire and Ice in space if you will. It seems however that very few of the pivotal moments and character developments are written without Deus ex machina "The warp did it!" moments. Which is a shame as there is/was lots of potential in characters like Horus, Loken, Tarik, Argel Tal (which is an exemption to this complaint), Erebus, Kharn, Horus Aximand and many others.

VS felt to me a bit like unremembered empire, in that it is used to get a grip on the (too) many story arcs they have going now and reign in some of it. This detracted from the main story in my opinion. However I do hope that this could mean they will streamline the storyline a bit more and don't end up becoming like Lost (the TV series): entangled in so many random plotlines it can only end in disappointment.


----------



## Svartmetall

This novel proved beyond doubt that McNeill isn't a _patch_ on Abnett or Dembski-Bowden. It's a total mess for plot, pace _and_ characterisation....very, very poor indeed. McNeill is the most overrated writer in GW's stable. Just as he had no clue how to depict Horus in 'False Gods', where he turned instantly from the proud-but-noble warlord of 'Horus Rising' into a moustachio-twirling "Bwahaha!" bad guy _with no explanation given_, same here...suddenly he's Mr. Noble-But-Flawed again? And suddenly Mortarion, who has always been Mr. 'I hate witchcraft', is all 'LOLZ I'll sacrifice my entire Deathshroud for magic's sake!' _with no explanation given_...? REALLY? This is fucking _bullshit_.

McNeill, you're a _hack_ (quoting Slayer and Metallica lyrics in 'Dead Sky, Black Sun' wasn't enough for you, you had to quote Carcass in this one?). Let your betters, like Dan and Aaron, do the Heresy series proper justice.


----------



## MontytheMighty

Svartmetall said:


> McNeill, you're a _hack_ (quoting Slayer and Metallica lyrics in 'Dead Sky, Black Sun' wasn't enough for you, you had to quote Carcass in this one?). Let your betters, like Dan and Aaron, do the Heresy series proper justice.


I wouldn't call him a hack...he might be trying his best for all we know

He simply lacks the talent. I'd add Wraight to Abnett and Aaron. BotS and Scars shows that Wraight has the talent. What's more is that I think he'll only get better.


----------



## theurge33

Ordered this two weeks ago, still hasn't shipped! Trying to hold myself over with the Divine Adorice


----------



## Roninman

Just finished and not impressed. Totally average novel from Graham, could be just slightly better than his Angel Exterminatus though. Another miss from him in my opinion, he surely struggles with his characters and dialogue.


----------



## Hoshi

Just picked up the audiobook. Looking forward to seeing how my boi Aximand is doing.


----------



## Squire

I enjoyed Vengeful Spirit. It wasn't one of the best but it certainly wasn't one of the worst either. 

I can't seem to find the spoiler formatting so I won't say much, but I found the ending satisfying. Given the final fight situation I was worried something absolutely bizarre was going to happen but the ESB thing didn't seem too farfetched for my liking.

In general I think I'm fairly easily pleased with HH books. I hate the whole Vulcan thing and I don't like too much bolter porn but otherwise I'm pretty easy going.


----------



## Bullitt

What did you all think about the House Devine story. It seem kind of rushed and very M Night Shyamalan.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Could very easily have done without it.


----------



## theurge33

Bullitt said:


> What did you all think about the House Devine story. It seem kind of rushed and very M Night Shyamalan.


Very frustrated. Not about the writing, but about the ending. Though I should be use to that type of ending by now.


----------



## Sevatar

Squire said:


> I can't seem to find the spoiler formatting so I won't say much[...]


It's just 

text text text[ /spoiler].

I enjoyed it, especially when



Horus tells the Red Angel as it's about to launch some theatrical daemonic speech to just "Shut the hell up already."


Still makes me chuckle.


----------



## Squire

Sevatar said:


> It's just
> 
> text text text[ /spoiler].
> 
> I enjoyed it, especially when
> 
> 
> 
> Horus tells the Red Angel as it's about to launch some theatrical daemonic speech to just "Shut the hell up already."
> 
> 
> Still makes me chuckle.






Thanks! :so_happy:

That was good :biggrin:

What confused me straight away was



Loken and Severian appearing, and Severian being a loyalist all of a sudden. I never bothered with the audio books so the last I heard from Loken he was dead, and Severian was the only one of the outcast dead who got away and was presumably a traitor. I spent the entirety of Vengeful Spirit waiting for Severian to betray the good guys. Since then I looked up a couple of the audio books and found out what was up. 

I'm not sure what to make of the Loken thing. I'm glad he's still alive but it kind of harms the original trilogy him miraculously making it off Istvaan III. I seem to remember his death being quite conclusive, and there have already been a few too many implausible resurrections in this series.

I wonder if they'll go further and have someone like Sanguinius survive. Maybe he'll turn out to have been wearing a lightning claw proof vest under his armour, or better yet he'll get up and say 'Good thing this 2+ armour protected me from Horus' AP3 lightning claw and AP4 mace!'


----------



## Khorne-Dog

Im dissapointed how lucky/sturdy/plot-relative some of the characters are , like


when Errant knights are surrounded on the Vengeful spirit in front of the Horus newly-empowered. They are basically unarmed, bound and watched over. Also i got the idea that most were unhelmed. And all of the sudden the are killing posessed marines with bare hands, finding weapons, kill a bunch more marines, make a mess and escaping with half of the Knights alive, especially Loken. That would have been a good place to die for him, he miraculously survived enough already 

I just think that characters are supposed to die occasionaly,especially when faced with this kinda odds, instead of making them Into Mary Sues,
or maybe it's just George Martin in me talking.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Right, I have put off even reading this thread as I am only half way through the book, but the more I read the more I seem to be missing out on. This is the first of the HH novels that I feel I'm missing out on by not having read the shorts that came before, as the characters keep referencing them.



When did Aximand get his face cut off? I remember him getting shot in the neck in Pariah, but it seems an Iron Hand did this to him.

Why/how did Severian become a ninja? I thought that was the Raven Guard gimmick.

Is this Tormageddon demon anything to Tarik Torgaddon? I also vaguely remember a ship in another novel being called that as well.

Are all the rest of the knights errant covered in those Garro audios?

It says that Sindermann and the Saint cannot be found by Malcador and co. In which instalment did they escape custody?


----------



## Lord of the Night

Khorne's Fist said:


> Right, I have put off even reading this thread as I am only half way through the book, but the more I read the more I seem to be missing out on. This is the first of the HH novels that I feel I'm missing out on by not having read the shorts that came before, as the characters keep referencing them.
> 
> 
> 
> When did Aximand get his face cut off? I remember him getting shot in the neck in Pariah, but it seems an Iron Hand did this to him.
> 
> Why/how did Severian become a ninja? I thought that was the Raven Guard gimmick.
> 
> Is this Tormageddon demon anything to Tarik Torgaddon? I also vaguely remember a ship in another novel being called that as well.
> 
> Are all the rest of the knights errant covered in those Garro audios?
> 
> It says that Sindermann and the Saint cannot be found by Malcador and co. In which installment did they escape custody?


In order;




1.) Uhh I don't know what you mean by Pariah since that's a 40k novel and Aximand is strictly 30k only. But it happened in the short story Little Horus featured in the Age of Darkness anthology. A White Scar named Hibou Khan sliced his face off.

2.) He's just good at that stuff. Always has been.

3.) Likely you recall it from Know No Fear when Erebus performs a mass-summoning of Daemons. One of them is Tarik-Reborn He-Who-Is-Tormageddon. And yes, Tormageddon is the Daemon who absorbed Torgaddon's soul and became one with it. He is Torgaddon.

4.) Varren, Rubio and Loken are. The rest are new.

5.) No. That is something that has happened off-screen.



LotN


----------



## Khorne-Dog

Lord of the Night said:


> 1.) Uhh I don't know what you mean by Pariah since that's a 40k novel and Aximand is strictly 30k only. But it happened in the short story Little Horus featured in the Age of Darkness anthology. A White Scar named Hibou Khan sliced his face off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LotN


I happened re-read "Little Horus" just prior to starting Vengeful Spirit. And as i recall that Hibou Khan sliced his face for the second time on Dwell. The story starts with how after his face was reattached and he became angrier and yet more like Horus.And that was prior to deployment into Mausolytic Precinct. 
quote "Of course, once they reattached his face, all he ever really looked was angry.
Dwell lay in their path, and illumination was required. " 
I looked everywhere for the source of the first face-cutting, but coulnt find it.
Maybe you, good sir, would be able to illuminate me? :thank_you:


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Looks like I have a bit of catching up to do. As for Pariah, I must be mixing it up with the one with all the assassins at the end of which Little Horus gets a billet in the neck. 

As for Tormageddon, I'm pretty sure there's a 40k novel in which a possessed ship called Tormageddon comes screaming its name from the warp into battle. Just can't remember which novel.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Khorne's Fist said:


> Looks like I have a bit of catching up to do. As for Pariah, I must be mixing it up with the one with all the assassins at the end of which Little Horus gets a billet in the neck.
> 
> As for Tormageddon, I'm pretty sure there's a 40k novel in which a possessed ship called Tormageddon comes screaming its name from the warp into battle. Just can't remember which novel.


Probably. I think his first facial cut was on Istvaan from Torgaddon himself, but Hibou Khan is the one who sliced off Little Horus's helmet face, and took his face with it.

_Salvation's Reach_ I think. I remember reading that somewhere.


LotN


----------



## Matcap

Lord of the Night said:


> 1.) Uhh I don't know what you mean by Pariah since that's a 40k novel and Aximand is strictly 30k only. But it happened in the short story Little Horus featured in the Age of Darkness anthology. A White Scar named Hibou Khan sliced his face off.
> 
> 
> LotN


 
I think he is talking about the novel Nemesis where





You follow a team of officio assasinorum agents on their way to kill Horus, but they end up hitting a "regular" astartes captain. Pretty sure it's not Aximand but Luc Sedirae that gets the bullet.


----------



## Khorne-Dog

Lord of the Night said:


> Probably. I think his first facial cut was on Istvaan from Torgaddon himself, but Hibou Khan is the one who sliced off Little Horus's helmet face, and took his face with it.
> 
> _Salvation's Reach_ I think. I remember reading that somewhere.
> 
> 
> LotN


 I looked through the first HH trilogy, and there seemes to be no evidence of any facial scarring\cutting for Aximand either


----------



## Khorne's Fist

Matcap said:


> I think he is talking about the novel Nemesis


That's the one. I just checked the BL site, and it's not even available to download in english. Not a good sign for the book.


----------



## Valrak

Khorne-Dog said:


> I looked through the first HH trilogy, and there seemes to be no evidence of any facial scarring\cutting for Aximand either


There is, it happens in 'Little Horus'.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/little-horus-ebook.html


----------



## Khorne-Dog

Valrak said:


> There is, it happens in 'Little Horus'.
> 
> http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/little-horus-ebook.html


5 posts up I explained, that in "little horus" he gets his face cut off for the second time.Im looking for the initial one


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Okay, so I finally finished reading _Vengeful Spirit_ - it took me quite a while to get through. 

Before I dive into my thoughts about the novel, I just want to say that the series continuity seems to be getting more muddled in general. I think the main reason for this is the constant recycling of the same characters in too many novels/shorts/audios. So, Mortarion has just duelled The Khan and revealed how uneasy he is allying with the rebels because of their acceptance of warp-craft, and now here is he summoning daemons himself... :headbutt:



Svartmetall said:


> This novel proved beyond doubt that McNeill isn't a _patch_ on Abnett or Dembski-Bowden. It's a total mess for plot, pace _and_ characterisation....very, very poor indeed. McNeill is the most overrated writer in GW's stable. Just as he had no clue how to depict Horus in 'False Gods', where he turned instantly from the proud-but-noble warlord of 'Horus Rising' into a moustachio-twirling "Bwahaha!" bad guy _with no explanation given_, same here...suddenly he's Mr. Noble-But-Flawed again? And suddenly Mortarion, who has always been Mr. 'I hate witchcraft', is all 'LOLZ I'll sacrifice my entire Deathshroud for magic's sake!' _with no explanation given_...? REALLY? This is fucking _bullshit_.


Whilst I wouldn't say _Vengeful Spirit_ was poor, it was only average in my eyes. You are right about Mcneill's portrayal of Horus though. His actions in _False Gods_ were unexplained and unjustified, and now, as you say, he's gone back to the 'noble-but-flawed' and not particularly ruthless to be honest. There wasn't much in the book justifying his continued decision to plunge the galaxy into the fires of war and betray his father; I certainly didn't get a feel for his (apparently) gargantuan ambition. 



Phoebus said:


> Man, you and I have been calling the Lion saving Russ for, what? 3-4 years now? Longer maybe? :so_happy:


Damn you two... :laugh: It feels like a bit of an anti-climax now.

What does concern me is that at least two additional loyal Primarchs have now been shown to have made it to Terra before Horus but not remain there to defend it. It just seems a bit... odd. I don't know how they are going to justify Russ and the Wolves leaving and not returning to defend the Throneworld - I hope they don't go down the Russ-attacking-Horus route, as that plot-line would just be boring and pre-determined. 



Phoebus said:


> I read it... I still think it's a little jarring!


I agree. Horus's portrayal just seems a bit... muddled. Firstly, what continues to irk me is that his 'I'm the best strategist in the galaxy' tag still isn't being justified. All Mcneill seems capable of doing to try and show us the Warmaster's tactical genius is have one of the other characters (eg. Abaddon or Aximand) worrying about something and taking their concerns to Horus, for the Warmaster to just respond with: 'Don't worry, I've got something in mind, they don't call me the Warmaster for nothing y'know'. That must have happened at least three times throughout the novel. Abnett managed to give us glimpses into Guilliman's unparalleled strategic capabilities in _Know No Fear_, and Alpharius' in _Legion_. But Mcneill has again failed to show us exactly why Horus is the Warmaster. 

Secondly, I'm still not seeing signs of his ambition, why he betrayed his father, or how he is justifying using Chaos and warp-craft. There was a brief insight into (building on the ending of _Nemesis_) the Warmaster cutting ties with Erebus (and by extension Lorgar and the Word Bearers) and his methods/corruptions to discover/master the warp himself, but this was much too brief. In fact there was no further insight into the Warmaster's character whatsoever. 

Thirdly, after he apparently claimed the power of the gods, he was absolutely no different. This was where I expected him to begin descending into madness (building towards his portrayal from _Collected Visions_ where he is an absolute nutter by the time of the final duel with the Emperor) and corruption. 



Forward Assist said:


> Was anyone else miffed towards the end of the book by...
> 
> 
> 
> The completely anti-climax of Horus going through the gate? I wasn't expecting MacNeil to devote hundreds of pages to the time spent in the warp but to not offer any insight into his, and by extension the Emperor's, time there was a disappointment.
> 
> On that note, I felt the Perpetual's arc was a pointless inclusion. She knew how to close the gate, could've done so any time in the lady 100 years, and didn't. Her story didn't really offer any more insight into the Emperor either. So what the point?


Yep, I agree with that as well. What did Horus do on the other side of the gate? What did the Emperor do? What is the power that they both apparently claimed? How did they do it? Is Horus now as powerful as the Emperor? Will this power utterly corrupt him? So many questions arose from this book with none being answered. For the climax of the novel, it was very... anti-climactic. 



Bullitt said:


> What did you all think about the House Devine story. It seem kind of rushed and very M Night Shyamalan.





Angel of Blood said:


> Could very easily have done without it.


The House Devine story was much more interesting in the old _Index Astartes_/White Dwarf articles, and it was only a few lines of text then. The first half of the novel I was generally on board, but the manner in which they joined Horus was so, weird (did they even join Horus?), that it just felt a bit ridiculous. I would have preferred a calculated decision to join with the rebels when they made planet-fall rather than building up an extensive family-feud storyline just for them to randomly go mental at the opportune moment. 

Another issue I had was the utter bore that the Knights Errant storyline was. Most people on these forums are aware of my contempt for the decision to have Loken survive Isstvan III, and I only feel that is more vindicated by his laughable plot-lines since. I felt absolutely no connection with his reunion with Horus, it was glaringly obvious what was going to happen - he would refuse Horus's offer (and he did) and would somehow escape in an unbelievable fashion (and he did). Yippee. :headbutt: Mcneill should have made the bold move to have Loken rejoin the Sons of Horus, would have been much more shocking and may have actually made for an interesting plot line. I'm glad Qurze is dead though :hang1: (don't hold your breath, he'll probably come back to life miraculously at some point!)

Having said all of that, there were some good parts to the novel. It was certainly superior to the shambles that _Angel Exterminatus_ was, but no way near Mcneill's peak (_A Thousand Sons_).


----------



## MontytheMighty

VS seems to be a total mess and mediocre at best. Damnation of Pythos seems to be really pointless (though I'll probably wager it's more well-written than VS) 

I absolutely can't wait for _Master of Mankind_, by a man who can actually write. Dan, Aaron, and Chris are the only authours whose works engage me. 

McNeill, Thorpe, Swallow, Kyme...yeah, haven't been doing it for me. I hope French and Annandale get to tackle some HH novels part of the main plotline


----------



## Lord of the Night

MontytheMighty said:


> VS seems to be a total mess and mediocre at best. Damnation of Pythos seems to be really pointless (though I'll probably wager it's more well-written than VS)


Well having read the book I would not say it's pointless as it does address a key aspect of the Horus Heresy at the point we are currently at. But admittedly it isn't part of the main Primarch and Galactic War plot, no. It's more a self-contained story but it does answer a question about one particular side in the Heresy, namely "What exactly are they doing right now?"


LotN


----------



## Khorne's Fist

I finally finished this dreadful book, after starting it the day it was available to download. What an awful mess. I got the distinct impression that it was a mishmash of short story ideas that McNeil squashed together in a hurry.

This was the first time I put down a HH book _twice_ to read other stuff before going back to it.

The knights subplot seemed to be shoved in in a manner that would just sell more knight kits. The presence of the BAs and UMs seemed kinda pointless. Mortarion summoning demons?:cray: That so many of the pathfinders made it to the end considering where they were and who they were fighting before their rescue was just downright ridiculous. And the fact that the whole crux of the story, Horus going through the portal and wresting power from the Gods, was brushed over in the space of a couple of pages had a very rushed, Abnettesque feel to it.

A true rival to BftA as poorest of the series, if not for the quality of the writing, but more for the disjointed and erratic style. When McNeil gets it right(ATS) he is brilliant, but when he gets it wrong he do so spectacularly. This is why he will never compete with ADB or Abnett for the top spot in the rankings of HH writers.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

MontytheMighty said:


> I absolutely can't wait for _Master of Mankind_


Hear hear.


----------



## Phoebus

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Another issue I had was the utter bore that the Knights Errant storyline was. Most people on these forums are aware of my contempt for the decision to have Loken survive Isstvan III, and I only feel that is more vindicated by his laughable plot-lines since. I felt absolutely no connection with his reunion with Horus, it was glaringly obvious what was going to happen - he would refuse Horus's offer (and he did) and would somehow escape in an unbelievable fashion (and he did). Yippee. :headbutt: Mcneill should have made the bold move to have Loken rejoin the Sons of Horus, would have been much more shocking and may have actually made for an interesting plot line. I'm glad Qurze is dead though :hang1: (don't hold your breath, he'll probably come back to life miraculously at some point!)


I had no issue with Loken's survival - probably because I never thought he died.

That having been said, I agree that it would have been a coup for Loken to go back to Horus, and though it wasn't explored enough, the moment of doubt on the bridge was delicious. Sadly, for that angle to have worked, Loken would have needed a more interesting plotline than "I AM CERBERUS!" in the past few stories he was in.



Lord of the Night said:


> ... it does answer a question about one particular side in the Heresy, namely "What exactly are they doing right now?"


The fact that this was needed is an indictment of the direction the series has taken.

Focusing on Horus too much is undesired. Familiarity, after all, breeds contempt. The series hasn't so much avoided that extreme, though as much as it has veered to the opposite extreme: avoiding Horus so much that the question "what exactly IS he doing?" was necessary to begin with.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

I'm actually dreading picking up where I left off in the book. It's become a chore. (IIRC it's when Loken walks up a mountain, sees Russ and immediately starts playing chess with him)

I don't know but I get the feeling the possibility that ghostwriting has tainted BL.


----------



## Lord of the Night

Phoebus said:


> The fact that this was needed is an indictment of the direction the series has taken.
> 
> Focusing on Horus too much is undesired. Familiarity, after all, breeds contempt. The series hasn't so much avoided that extreme, though as much as it has veered to the opposite extreme: avoiding Horus so much that the question "what exactly IS he doing?" was necessary to begin with.


I wasn't talking about _Vengeful Spirit_, I was talking about _The Damnation of Pythos_.


LotN


----------



## Vicarious500

A long time silent visiter of forums I have registered to leave this comment.
Warning: heavy subjectivity, rage and spoilers.
Firstly want to say that I never was a fan of Graham and consider his best heresy contribution to be Mechanicum. ATS and Fulgrim were good but not great. I even enjoyed Angel Exterminatus, but while it was supposedly an Iron Warriors centered novel, the things I remember now from it are 


1. Emperor's Children at least succumbing to total maniacs, especially when orgasmically slaughtering one another. 2. Nykona Sharrowkyn for almost killing a primarch, being total ninja, having two black gladiuses, killing Lucius (at last). 3. Salamander apothecary for just being awesome (seriously can't remember what he did or say, but the impression of him being awesome does not leave me.)

As to other his works in heresy series - they were just diappointing IMO and lately are constantly making an impression of being made for the sake of fan service. 


I was especially frustrated by one particular twist. First the Fulgrim succumbed due to demon posession, despite all the arrogance and self-imposed superiority he had in him which could be enough to convince him for joining Horus. And after some time it was "revealed" that he managed to defeat the demon aand it was just a part of his plan. Can't remember the short story that was telling the story - The reflection cracked, if I'm not mistaken. To me it felt like the decision to reestablish what really happened to Fulgrim came to Graham after reading numerous fan rages regarding the fact of Fulgrim's posession.

Anyway, I've finished Vengeful Spirit, and I'll remember it as a series of WTF? moments. 
In short: it annoyed me alot and I did not like it as a whole. There were cool moments, but precious few and and they perish in the storm of nonesense that are the main events.
Here they are fro those interested in more pointless complaining:



1. The motivation of Horus for the entire book and seemingly beyond is explicidly stated in the opening words by himself, in short :"to become a god and to kill a god". WTF? I may have missed something, but it seemed that there were like a million facts that caused rebellion. From the opening trilogy I remember one of the main reasons to this being Emperor abandoning his sons to finish the Crusade for him and deal with all the arising problems of sustaining the Empire, hiding numerous truths and not explaining his intentions. Finally there were fears of what will be after the war is ended. It just feels so wrong that now main goal for Horus is becoming a god. It feels so much more wrong for other to join him in this.
2. The scene in the opening when Horus, Mortarion and mournival are attacked by the attack aircraft. The whole place gets torched and no one dies for no reason. WTF? Graham even admits it in the text, that there is no reason Horus could survive. If the author does not believe in what he writes, why should I?
3. The overuse of "Warmaster" thing. Stating the thing repeatedly does not explain it. It was the thing that annoyed me in Fulgrim with all the things being perfect. As some people have written here already, there are several scenes where the battle seems to be going in favour of the imperials, someone starts to raise concerns to Horus and gets put in line by him saying something like "Do you really question me? I am a Warmaster for a reason.". then something "unexpected" happens and twists the battle in favour of Horus. In several novels to date, primarchs competency at war was demonstrated far better and it was more believable (Guilliman in Know no fear, Lion at Thramas, Khan in Scars and so on) especially as no high-ranking officer of the legion starting to question his own primarch. 
4. The whole knights errant story. Ok, so for several years now, a plot was developed where a team of special individuals was assempled by Malcador and Garro for supposedly significant and special task. And it is ... suicide mission to infiltrate Vengeful Spirit to scratch walls with battle-marks of the Rout? WTF? Was not the starship built by imperium and does it not have it's plans and schemes? Or ships of similar class/model/whatever? Do they not have several loyal warriors that served aboard and that have supposedly perfect recall of everything they experience? And even if these facts are thrown away, why only consider breaching at all? What if they are simply removed by crew? What if other marks are scratched to lead the supposed assault in the cross-fire? And most of all it still does not give an answer to question raised in the beginning of the book: Russ asked Locken to give him an edge to kill Horus. Can't see how knowing where the cultists gather to worship allows Russ to kill Horus. 
Another thing is the portrayal of the characters. They do not have enough screen time to be developed. The Emperor's Children warrior even dies in the backstage. The wolf is again described as a savage loving hard drinks and bragging. The white scar is killed without much involvement. But we are given a lot of time to observe the inner turbulence of the Locken's mind. Again i fail to see why on Isstvan III he was all Cerberus and about killing all heretics until the death claims him, while here he suddenly has more doubts than a girl about to choose a dress in the shop. 
5. Numerous fights where everyone survives. It is so annoying when the characted is placed in the situation with no logical way out apart from death and still survives because he should be there in the end. Why even create such situations then? What was the point of Horus leading the first assault in his land raider to become a target for the whole defending army? And then he is standing against ten knights who supposedly only fire after coming into mellee range and only once. Because how in other way Horus can fight them with his maul and win? And other moments: Grael shot through one heart, stabbed through another and living, the members of mournival facing Imperator titan, guardian angel, onslought of a more numerous force of ultramarines, and surviving. Ruring the final fight i was sincirely hoping for more deaths but no, even unarmed and outnumbered knights of errant manage to survive losing only Iacton. 
6. The plot of House Devine. A whole short story dedicated to set it and in the end it all comes to sudden cult worshipping. It was said that the sacristans in the titan itself were also responsible for it's destruction by sabotage, but it is unclear why they would do so, as the house of Devine turned at the last moment with Albard taking revenge and then succumbing to gods of chaos. Previously the house was ruled by Raevan, who had his sons killed by Horus, earning a personal hate and turned down the offerings of serpent gods. So who set up the sabotage?
7. The ground battles. The whole book did not explain why after annihilating the fleet of Molech, it's ground armies were not blown to pieces from space. The whole mountain was blown during the final battle, why not do it earlier and to other concentration of armies also?
8. The final battle especially. So Horus can face 10 knights, survive and kill half of them while making the others run like dogs, while an imperator titan can't face the surviving ones. And in death it somehow destroys the whole imperial army. Which prior to invasion counted 50 million soldiers. Yes, totally believable. 
9. The whole parts abount secrets of Molech. What was the purpose of the guardian angel? How did the Horus found out what he needed from it by killing it? Why was the gate to warp not sealed for over 100 year? Why was it's guardian positioned so far away from the gate? I don't even wan't to mention the miraculous appearance of the perpetual on the only ship escaping molech in the end.
10. Blood angels. The suicidal charge into the lines of the enemy is one thing. Mass suicide when facing red angel is the other. Horus should seriously consider sending the red angel against blood angels alone. There is a chance for legion-wide suicide for how it was explained.


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## mal310

Angel of Blood said:


> Ah also it seems my long time prediction of the Lion being the help from 'An unexpected quarter' that saved Russ and his Legion from the Alpha Legion attack was spot on. From the fact that Russ only mentions it as a brief passing note, I'm guessing that it will be further elaborated on in another novel or short. Appears to have happened before the Lion departed for Ultramar however.





Phoebus said:


> Man, you and I have been calling the Lion saving Russ for, what? 3-4 years now? Longer maybe? :so_happy:



It seems to me that the unexpected help the Space Wolves get is not from The Lion but the "Angels of Caliban" ie Luther and gang.


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## Malus Darkblade

"The Warmaster’s sons stretched as far as the eye could see. At least *sixty thousand* Space Marines. By conventional reckonings of numbers, it was a *paltry* force with which to conquer a *world*."

How does stuff like this get approved?


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## Lord of the Night

Malus Darkblade said:


> "The Warmaster’s sons stretched as far as the eye could see. At least *sixty thousand* Space Marines. By conventional reckonings of numbers, it was a *paltry* force with which to conquer a *world*."
> 
> How does stuff like this get approved?


Do you mean the writing or what the writing is actually saying.

Because if it's the latter I think that it's more a Heresy perspective. The idea of having only 1000 marines at your command then would seem paltry since there are hundreds of thousands of them per Legion. The Primarchs would think in terms of such scale because they are used to thinking that way.


LotN


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## Malus Darkblade

That wasn't from a Primarch's perspective however.


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## Khorne's Fist

Malus Darkblade said:


> That wasn't from a Primarch's perspective however.


No, but it was from a 30k perspective, in which, as LotN said, entire legions were regularly used in wars of compliance. The 40k perspective of only a thousand marines per chapter that do not often get deployed en mass would be abhorrent to a 30k observer used to seeing 100,000+ marines assault a planet.


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## Angel of Blood

mal310 said:


> It seems to me that the unexpected help the Space Wolves get is not from The Lion but the "Angels of Caliban" ie Luther and gang.


What makes you think that? I would suggest it was Corswain and/or the Orders left under his command by the Lion, seeing as he was tasked specifically to find Russ.-



Malus Darkblade said:


> "The Warmaster’s sons stretched as far as the eye could see. At least *sixty thousand* Space Marines. By conventional reckonings of numbers, it was a *paltry* force with which to conquer a *world*."
> 
> How does stuff like this get approved?


I can't remember reading that, but if I am reading that right, I agree that in 30k, a thousand marines would be seen as *paltry*. But 60,000??? That's an absurd amount, even got the Crusade standards.


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## Malus Darkblade

My main gripe isn't the amount of marines deemed paltry but rather that 60 marines isn't enough for non-Horusian marines to conquer a world.

100 or less even of any legion/chapter with equipment is more than enough to conquer yournaverage 30/40k world.


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## Angel of Blood

Oh there's that too, just awful all round.


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## Khorne's Fist

Malus Darkblade said:


> 100 or less even of any legion/chapter with equipment is more than enough to conquer yournaverage 30/40k world.


I know that is sometimes mentioned in novels, but personally I don't see it. No matter how super the soldier, you can only spread them so thin, and absorb so many losses before they are no longer a viable fighting force, especially in the face of a half decent PDF. I think even an entire chapter would get bogged down very quickly whilst trying to conquer an entire planet, unless supported by considerable IG forces.

Then again, conquering whole planets is no longer the role of SM chapters, so it's a moot point.


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## Malus Darkblade

Khorne's Fist said:


> I know that is sometimes mentioned in novels, but personally I don't see it. No matter how super the soldier, you can only spread them so thin, and absorb so many losses before they are no longer a viable fighting force, especially in the face of a half decent PDF. I think even an entire chapter would get bogged down very quickly whilst trying to conquer an entire planet, unless supported by considerable IG forces.
> 
> Then again, conquering whole planets is no longer the role of SM chapters, so it's a moot point.


There are several examples of lone or small bands of Space Marines conquering planets either through charisma or brute force.

Top of my head one of the Fallen did so and so did a group of loyalists turned traitors. I'll try and find the links.

Also while somewhat related, Curze did the same thing overtime.


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## Khorne's Fist

I know comparing reality to 40k is usually a mistake, but could you imagine 100 or even 1000 SMs conquering modern day Earth? Not likely.


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## Malus Darkblade

Khorne's Fist said:


> I know comparing reality to 40k is usually a mistake, but could you imagine 100 or even 1000 SMs conquering modern day Earth? Not likely.


1k Marines with gear? We wouldn't last a week.


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## Stephen74

Well I've just finished this on Audiobook. 
Arrrggghhh, once again I felt like driving in to on coming traffic after listening to McNeills god awful descriptive drivel. Nonsense made up words and random metaphors that no one can relate to. Dude, understand what a metaphor is before I take out a contract hit on you. 
Nor do I wish to hear the life story of a character you've just introduced and are just about to kill. They're cannon fodder, not filler content. 
I swear, you don't need gamma radiation to get all green and angry, just read a McNeill book and you'll be hulk smashing the night away. 

Right, rant about the words worst descriptive writing (after gav thorpe) aside.

The story wasn't good.
The main plot was ok. Horus wants to find out what daddy has been hiding. Ok, that could actually become an important part of the heresy storyline. 
The main subplot was very weak. 

What annoyed me about the story though were the changes from what has previously been written.
Previously on the Horus Heresy.
Everyone agrees that the Emperor is not a God. In fact, if I recall, one of the factors used to turn Horus was the idea that the Emperor wanted to style himself a God and Horus was adamant he was not a God.
No one knew about chaos, and when demons etc started to appear they didn't know what they were. The imperium (excluding the perpetuals of course) didn't know about the primordial annihilator.
Lunar Wolves/Sons of Horus, particularly the likes of Abaddon etc, were hard, tough, no nonsense warriors.
Mortarion was Mr Anti Magic.

In McNiells Episode:
Horus believes the Emperor is a God. As it seems does everyone else. 
Everyone seems to fully understand chaos top to bottom and have done for a very long time.
The Sons of Horus are the biggest whiny pussies in the Galaxy. The vengeful spirit should be called the waaaambulance. Oh No Horus, don't go in there you might get hurt, let us go. uke:
Mortarion - yeah this has been covered hasn't it. 

There is very little redeeming about this book. In fact, it was so full of drivel, I can't even remember what happened in the end. The moment McNeills goes off on his made up terminologies and unnecessary descriptive drivel my brain shuts down so big chunks of the story are just lost to me. 

I liked the action. McNeill is good at action. He's normally ok at bringing characters to life through dialogue as well but not this time. I couldn't keep track of who was who because they were so dull and uninteresting and needless and wow my brain just shut off again.

I'm tempted to listen again and maybe i'll pick up on bits that I've missed, but not for the moment. Next up is either Promethean Sun or Aurelian.


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## Khorne's Fist

Go with Aurelian. Prometean Sun adds exactly nothing to the series.


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## Roninman

Stephen74 said:


> I liked the action. McNeill is good at action. He's normally ok at bringing characters to life through dialogue as well but not this time.


I think atleast the first battles in this book were totally awfull. Space battle with tomb ships blaaah, first ground battle with armor rushing straight to defensive guns, blaaah. Really clever tactics by master strategist Horus.... If you cant write some interesting battles which shows some good strategy or tactics, then should skip writing these battles totally. These were propably most boring parts of book for me. And so unbelievable stupid too


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## ckcrawford

Khorne's Fist said:


> Go with Aurelian. Prometean Sun adds exactly nothing to the series.


I've heard that across the board. I think I saw someone on Ebay selling their Promethean Sun for over 400 bucks on ebay a couple weeks ago... good luck with that.


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## Garviel loken.

Stephen74 said:


> Well I've just finished this on Audiobook.
> Arrrggghhh, once again I felt like driving in to on coming traffic after listening to McNeills god awful descriptive drivel. Nonsense made up words and random metaphors that no one can relate to. Dude, understand what a metaphor is before I take out a contract hit on you.
> Nor do I wish to hear the life story of a character you've just introduced and are just about to kill. They're cannon fodder, not filler content.
> I swear, you don't need gamma radiation to get all green and angry, just read a McNeill book and you'll be hulk smashing the night away.
> 
> Right, rant about the words worst descriptive writing (after gav thorpe) aside.
> 
> The story wasn't good.
> The main plot was ok. Horus wants to find out what daddy has been hiding. Ok, that could actually become an important part of the heresy storyline.
> The main subplot was very weak.
> 
> What annoyed me about the story though were the changes from what has previously been written.
> Previously on the Horus Heresy.
> Everyone agrees that the Emperor is not a God. In fact, if I recall, one of the factors used to turn Horus was the idea that the Emperor wanted to style himself a God and Horus was adamant he was not a God.
> No one knew about chaos, and when demons etc started to appear they didn't know what they were. The imperium (excluding the perpetuals of course) didn't know about the primordial annihilator.
> Lunar Wolves/Sons of Horus, particularly the likes of Abaddon etc, were hard, tough, no nonsense warriors.
> Mortarion was Mr Anti Magic.
> 
> In McNiells Episode:
> Horus believes the Emperor is a God. As it seems does everyone else.
> Everyone seems to fully understand chaos top to bottom and have done for a very long time.
> The Sons of Horus are the biggest whiny pussies in the Galaxy. The vengeful spirit should be called the waaaambulance. Oh No Horus, don't go in there you might get hurt, let us go. uke:
> Mortarion - yeah this has been covered hasn't it.
> 
> There is very little redeeming about this book. In fact, it was so full of drivel, I can't even remember what happened in the end. The moment McNeills goes off on his made up terminologies and unnecessary descriptive drivel my brain shuts down so big chunks of the story are just lost to me.
> 
> I liked the action. McNeill is good at action. He's normally ok at bringing characters to life through dialogue as well but not this time. I couldn't keep track of who was who because they were so dull and uninteresting and needless and wow my brain just shut off again.
> 
> I'm tempted to listen again and maybe i'll pick up on bits that I've missed, but not for the moment. Next up is either Promethean Sun or Aurelian.


yeah, my one problem with mcniel is some of his outlandish word choices. I have to stop while reading just to pronounce the bloody thing


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## 40kBookReviews

I liked that at least Vengeful Spirit is a return to putting Horus at the center of the Horus Heresy books.
It's been too long since we've had a book with any meaningful content pertaining to the actions of the Warmaster himself.

With that being said, Vengeful Spirit was ultimately something of a disappointment to me, as it seems to have been to some of you guys too.

The whole book feels a bit like an excuse to write a battle novel and then shove Horus and Loken in there as the "fan bait".
I really didn't care much for Loken's role in this book or indeed the whole storyline that he is involved in.

I do think that the Horus storyline is acceptable, though there are several questionable bits that annoyed me.

I think the most positive way to look at "Vengeful Spirit" is that it is a cool novel about a planetary invasion during the Horus Heresy and it adds a little flavor into the Horus story.

Definitely not in my personal top 5 of Horus Heresy books, though.


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## Garviel loken.

40kBookReviews said:


> I liked that at least Vengeful Spirit is a return to putting Horus at the center of the Horus Heresy books.
> It's been too long since we've had a book with any meaningful content pertaining to the actions of the Warmaster himself.
> 
> With that being said, Vengeful Spirit was ultimately something of a disappointment to me, as it seems to have been to some of you guys too.
> 
> The whole book feels a bit like an excuse to write a battle novel and then shove Horus and Loken in there as the "fan bait".
> I really didn't care much for Loken's role in this book or indeed the whole storyline that he is involved in.
> 
> I do think that the Horus storyline is acceptable, though there are several questionable bits that annoyed me.
> 
> I think the most positive way to look at "Vengeful Spirit" is that it is a cool novel about a planetary invasion during the Horus Heresy and it adds a little flavor into the Horus story.
> 
> Definitely not in my personal top 5 of Horus Heresy books, though.


My favorite part of the story was actually the loken parts. I may be a tad biased but i really enjoyed how it shows his struggles throughout the book.


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## 40kBookReviews

Garviel loken. said:


> My favorite part of the story was actually the loken parts. I may be a tad biased but i really enjoyed how it shows his struggles throughout the book.


Hehe, well given your name I'm gonna assume you're a bit of a Loken fan... 

I dunno, it's not like it was terrible. I think you just really need to have a lot of emotion already invested in Loken for the story to resonate and I don't really have that.
Maybe if I had gone back and re-read the first handful of HH books then I'd feel more excited to be reading about Loken.


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## Khorne's Fist

40kBookReviews said:


> I dunno, it's not like it was terrible. I think you just really need to have a lot of emotion already invested in Loken for the story to resonate and I don't really have that.
> Maybe if I had gone back and re-read the first handful of HH books then I'd feel more excited to be reading about Loken.


Oh but it was terrible, especially if, like the majority seem to, you believe that bringing Loken back from the dead cheapens the sacrifice of those Marines that fought a doomed battle rather than join their traitor brothers. The first three books had such a bigger impact when we all thought he was killed.


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## Stephen74

Khorne's Fist said:


> Oh but it was terrible, especially if, like the majority seem to, you believe that bringing Loken back from the dead cheapens the sacrifice of those Marines that fought a doomed battle rather than join their traitor brothers. The first three books had such a bigger impact when we all thought he was killed.


 I don't think it cheapens it at all. I think it was brilliant. The lone survivor of the greatest betrayal, driven mad etc That's the stuff that heroes get made from. I don't necessarily like how he was portrayed in Vengeful Spirit, I would have preferred to see a bit more madness in him still, but the concept is excellent. 

A better writer would have made this in to something awesome. Nathaniel and Loken together - that should be an epic chaos killing combination.


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## 40kBookReviews

Khorne's Fist said:


> Oh but it was terrible, especially if, like the majority seem to, you believe that bringing Loken back from the dead cheapens the sacrifice of those Marines that fought a doomed battle rather than join their traitor brothers. The first three books had such a bigger impact when we all thought he was killed.


That's a good point. I did not consider that.


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## Phoebus

Excuse the thread necromancy, gentlemen! :wink:



Lord of the Night said:


> Do you mean the writing or what the writing is actually saying.
> 
> Because if it's the latter I think that it's more a Heresy perspective. The idea of having only 1000 marines at your command then would seem paltry since there are hundreds of thousands of them per Legion. The Primarchs would think in terms of such scale because they are used to thinking that way.
> 
> 
> LotN





Khorne's Fist said:


> No, but it was from a 30k perspective, in which, as LotN said, entire legions were regularly used in wars of compliance. The 40k perspective of only a thousand marines per chapter that do not often get deployed en mass would be abhorrent to a 30k observer used to seeing 100,000+ marines assault a planet.


That entire legions were used to prosecute the compliance of a single world _on occasion_ doesn't meant that this was *the norm,* though. I think it's far more plausible to argue that Horus was referring to the number 60,000, period - and not to 60,000 Space Marines specifically. We have plenty of examples - in the novels and in the Forge World books, alike - that show independent task forces (led by primarchs or by their lieutenants) of far smaller size. Both _Betrayal_ and _Know No Fear_ state - rather explicitly - that a Chapter-equivalent force is capable of taking a planet on its own.

Where Molech is concerned, the idea that 60,000 Space Marines are not sufficient for the task at hand is on the wrong side of hilarious. They have a fleet of warships capable of breaking a planet many times over, and they have uncontested command of the planet's orbit. Their opponents lack air power and rely on palisades made of stone and wood to provide protection to their Knights from unintelligent predators.



> I know that is sometimes mentioned in novels, but personally I don't see it. No matter how super the soldier, you can only spread them so thin, and absorb so many losses before they are no longer a viable fighting force, especially in the face of a half decent PDF. I think even an entire chapter would get bogged down very quickly whilst trying to conquer an entire planet, unless supported by considerable IG forces.


With respect, the issue here is that you're projecting conventional war unto Space Marines. The Space Marines are not used to prosecute ground war against millions of infantrymen and thousands of tanks, artillery pieces, etc., on their own, however. Their task has ever been to perform surgically-precise and incredibly quick shock assaults against those strategic targets that decide the course of a war.

Each Chapter or Chapter-equivalent force (and remember, this was the basic "maneuver unit" designed for independent operations even back in the Great Crusade) had at least one battle barge, several strike cruisers, and even more escort ships. Sure, it also had gunships, armor, and artillery for specific mission sets, but ultimately it was orbital supremacy and firepower that allowed the Legiones Astartes (and now the Adeptus Astartes) to rain unholy amounts of destruction on a world being brought under compliance. Space Marines don't have to worry about being outnumbered 10,000 to 1 (or whatever) because they come with ships that can break cities in seconds, nations in minutes, and continents in hours.



> Then again, conquering whole planets is no longer the role of SM chapters, so it's a moot point.


That's not true, though. Point of fact, that's _exactly_ what Space Marines are called upon to do when human worlds defect, are conquered by xenos, etc. Sometimes they fight alongside the Astra Militarum, but going back as many as four editions we have fluff examples in the Codices that show a Chapter prosecuting such campaigns on their own.


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