# Armageddon (by ADB!) and Blood in the Machine



## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

*BOOM, surprise release. * *throws money at the screen*










Was it not for the fact that its written by ADB then it would be a complete money grab, but I am sure the guy makes the novella worth the money. 

*And then we have this one.* Wonder whatever its "Available while Stocks Last" _Ascension of Balthazar_ style, or available whilst socks last and fuck you if you did not buy it.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

That's a celestial lion back to back with Grimaldus if I'm not mistaken. Shame it's only a novella, I was looking forward to a proper sequel to Helsreach after ADB mentioned it.


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## Lord of Ruin (Jul 22, 2012)

That looks like a hardback release? wil buy though, as Helsreach is one of the best novels ADB has ever written, plus the Novella i imagine is going to contain the celestial Lions!

Where did you find this out?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Take my money already!!!

To Lord of Ruin: they were advertised on the Black Library website. 

EDIT: pre-ordering the eBook makes it available 12 July...


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Lord of Ruin said:


> Where did you find this out?


Games Workshops pre-order page.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

second book seems to flesh tearers fighting orks, 
seems to be seth at the cover,
interesting that Grimmaldus is back to back, since the celestial lions are getting their arses kicked (according to Lexicanum)


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Oh fuck me. I finished my _Helsreach_ reread the other week.

Buy now; guilt later. Let the catechism of BL buying be heard!


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Not even if it was signed by ADB. There is no way in hell that i'm spending £20 on a book that I already own just to get a novella, not even if it was a Night Lords novella. I'll find another way to read it.


LotN


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## Cruxyh (Apr 22, 2012)

Lord of the Night said:


> Not even if it was signed by ADB. There is no way in hell that i'm spending £20 on a book that I already own just to get a novella, not even if it was a Night Lords novella. I'll find another way to read it.
> 
> 
> LotN


That feeling seems familiar. On the other hand I can always throw my copy of Helsreach at one of my friends. :grin:

I am curious though... if I pre-order it now, when would it be send? next week or?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Awww, I was also hoping _Blood and Fire_ would be a full blown novel. Still, gimme.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> Not even if it was signed by ADB. There is no way in hell that i'm spending £20 on a book that I already own just to get a novella, not even if it was a Night Lords novella. I'll find another way to read it.
> 
> 
> LotN


Maybe *this* is for you then?


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Doelago said:


> Maybe *this* is for you then?


Perhaps, though I dislike ebooks. If no physical release beyond the novella is planned then the ebook it will have to be.


LotN


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## Khyzer (Dec 22, 2012)

Hrmm... I would probably have bought this if they had kept the same format of the other battle books so I could have just replaced my _Helsreach_ with this book. But of course its a hardback so it will stick out like a sore thumb on my shelf... and like LotN said, its soooo damn expensive for a book I already own and a simple novella?? I am sure without a doubt that it will be a fantastic read, and I certainly *want* to read it... but not for $30 or as a ebook.... What a bummer announcement  Was hoping for a full blown sequel novel, or at least a novella hardback release so it can match my _Flesh of Cretacia_ space marine battle novella...


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I mean no one any offense, but this just strikes me as a very selective version of "First World problems"! :biggrin:


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## Captain_Daerys_Arrun (Jan 9, 2012)

Lord of the Night said:


> Perhaps, though I dislike ebooks. If no physical release beyond the novella is planned then the ebook it will have to be.
> 
> 
> LotN


Same for me


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## Tyrannus (Sep 19, 2010)

Damn, that Armageddon cover looks sick. Never actually got around to reading Helsreach, which is strange seeing as i like Black Templars and ADB. I guess I'll have to buy this then.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

What gun is the CL using? Too big for a bolt pistol. Waaaaaaay too slim to be a bolter.

...On second thought, maybe the author took some artistic license on the bolter?


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## Khyzer (Dec 22, 2012)

I took it as maybe a stalker bolter because of the scope, with an added forward grip. You can see the mag being expended, so imagining where the mag would go... it seems like the standard look of a bolter to me.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

I have read neither book and would not consider this. I don't consider ADB to be that great of an author, a bit to overhyped IMHO. But beyond that $30 for a pretty thin hard cover is well above the norm.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

I don't suppose anyone whose read _Blood and Fire_ could provide a summary of the plot, spoilered of course, for those of us who have no interest in buying the novel reprint. If the ebook is out then someone may have read it by now.


LotN


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

The eBook won't be released until 12 July (for those who pre-ordered it).

I'll post a synopsis when I read it.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

hailene said:


> What gun is the CL using? Too big for a bolt pistol. Waaaaaaay too slim to be a bolter.
> 
> ...On second thought, maybe the author took some artistic license on the bolter?


I seriously hope that this becomes the typical style of Bolter Weapon. I'm sick of seeing barrels the size of a characters face for a weapon that fires a .75 calibre (that's 19mm or so) shots.

Fun fact, spent a few days firing a 20mm cannon last couple of days. Lets just say that instead of firing AP solid shots, a rocket powered explosive round would be fairly devastating; they have a max range of around 7km when fired at 45 degrees, but when direct fire between 2-3km; but that's as an AoE weapon; on an optimized Rifle-type, consider capabilities in excess of that.

So, yeah, they're pretty decent sniper weapons, if that's what it is.

However, the foregrip doesn't particularly make sense if it is a Sniper Weapon. It's better on a carbine weapon for CQC and a more natural hand position. As a Sniper, for ranged shots, it's better resting on the ground or on the elbow (I believe).


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## Khyzer (Dec 22, 2012)

were also talking about super humans in advanced suits of armor capable of assisting in aiming as well as locking in place/brute strength to prevent recoil. Maybe his forward grip just assists in that?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

If you want to handwaive it away as "it's magic", fair enough. But a handgrip provides no benefit to aiming at all. It's a video game fallacy that a foregrip reduces kick. It provides a more comfortable grip for extended usage.

If he's able to lock his armour to remove sway, then why need the foregrip?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Vaz said:


> If you want to handwaive it away as "it's magic", fair enough.


I don't think it's fair to dismiss it as simply "magic". The idea that power armour provides stability while aiming/firing is no more a stretch than highly sensitive auto-senses or a HUD that's wired to your brain and features data that can be dismissed by blinking or even just thinking (depending on the novel).



> But a handgrip provides no benefit to aiming at all. It's a video game fallacy that a foregrip reduces kick. It provides a more comfortable grip for extended usage.


I'm by no means a wizard of a shooter, but I would disagree that a handgrip doesn't help with aiming. I'll grant you that it doesn't matter as a bipod and/or a good resting position when shooting for distance and accuracy, but I would say it's quite helpful when firing standing - whether in semi-, three round burst, or automatic mode. I don't think it's a coincidence that a lot of shooters on this side of the pond who don't use hand grips adopt a more aggressive carbine grip with their non-shooting hand positioned almost right behind the front sights: their stated reason for doing so is to pull the carbine in more snugly against their shoulder pocket so as to manage recoil. 

Having said that, though...



> If he's able to lock his armour to remove sway, then why need the foregrip?


Exactly. In the case of a Space Marine, I think it's a rather unnecessary bit of artistic license in an otherwise fine illustration.


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

I believe in Bowden - lets give him a chance. He could pleasantly surprise you:grin:


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> I'm by no means a wizard of a shooter, but I would disagree that a handgrip doesn't help with aiming. I'll grant you that it doesn't matter as a bipod and/or a good resting position when shooting for distance and accuracy, but I would say it's quite helpful when firing standing - whether in semi-, three round burst, or automatic mode. I don't think it's a coincidence that a lot of shooters on this side of the pond who don't use hand grips adopt a more aggressive carbine grip with their non-shooting hand positioned almost right behind the front sights: their stated reason for doing so is to pull the carbine in more snugly against their shoulder pocket so as to manage recoil.


I only use my foregrip when doing CQB/OBUA, as I just find it easier to maneuver the weapon fast and more accurately at closer ranges with that style of grip, doesn't help the kick at all though. For distance shooting however, never use it, unless I'm shooting from prone, in which case I deploy the funky, yet incredibly gay pop out bi-pod legs. 

But again, like Vaz said, and as you agreed, the stabalisation of the power armour would make it redundant anyway.


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## Garrak (Jun 18, 2012)

You guys might find the artist's thoughts interesting (also the full picture):

Black Library: Armageddon by `ukitakumuki on deviantART


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Angel,

Ditto on the usage of said grip. 

Garrack,

Thanks for the link!

*EDIT:* the same artist did the cover for 'Blood in the Machine'. I think it looks quite nice as well.


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## Garrak (Jun 18, 2012)

Depending on what you guys say about the novella, I might get this book, just because. Also I really like that artwork. 

The one for Blood in the Machine is also awesome (that Imperator look scary - I'd crap my pants having that thing aim a gun my way).


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Just finished Blood and Fire, a fairly short novella rounding out Hellsreach.

It continues right off where Hellsreach ended as the Black Templars prepares to leave Armageddon to hunt Ghazhkull Thraka.

I found it an enjoyable read, tying up a few characters from Hellsreach as well diving more into the backstory of Grimaldus. His first name revealed to be Merek.

It also gives a strong characterization of the Celestial Lions, whom seems eerilly alike the similar tribal themed Silver Skulls. The story of their downfall and where it started.

And their fate?



Grimaldus intervenes in the final charge of the last understrenght company of Celestial Lion survivors, whom had intended a death rush into the Mannheim gap that claimed the majority of their chapter. Believing them to be throwing their lives away in vain to soothe wounded pride instead of living for the Emperor. The survivors saved by a diverted army that takes the Mannheim gap, they are sent home to rebuild their chapter.



I found it a more enjoyable read than Hellsreach, which I personally did not find to be one of ADB's better works.


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## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Received my _Armageddon_ today, and just by first glances it's a hefty piece compared to your typical Black Library hardback. Having reread _Helsreach_ fairly recently, I'll probably skip onto _Blood and Fire_ when I have the chance.

The main motivation behind the purchase was that my copy of _Helsreach_ was yellow, shot-through with bumps, nicks and spine-damage, and was in dire need of replacement. So a hardback edition with an additional novella is a worthy investment. The artwork is the same, but with a few added pages (one of which is a great image of a Celestial Lion), though I was hoping for a nice spread of _Helsreach_'s cover art.

I've seen new (and they won't be production-fresh _new_) copies of the original novel on Amazon for £20-£30 so overall it's a good decision on BL's behalf.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> Grimaldus intervenes in the final charge of the last understrenght company of Celestial Lion survivors, whom had intended a death rush into the Mannheim gap that claimed the majority of their chapter. Believing them to be throwing their lives away in vain to soothe wounded pride instead of living for the Emperor. The survivors saved by a diverted army that takes the Mannheim gap, they are sent home to rebuild their chapter.


A happy ending in 40K? 

...or perhaps not 

Doesn't the Inquisition pick off the survivors later?


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> A happy ending in 40K?
> 
> ...or perhaps not
> 
> Doesn't the Inquisition pick off the survivors later?


It ends on an open, positive note really. But considering their low numbers and no apothecaries left, they are going to be facing an uphill battle to recover from this.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

That they might have no apothecaries left sounds all bad, but it's not hard to figure that they might be able to use the tutelary engines to teach them the business end of a scalpel when they get back on board ship. Might take a while, and be touch and go for a bit, but there's enough in the noggin' of a ship's engines to allow the Astartes to manage.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Vaz said:


> That they might have no apothecaries left sounds all bad, but it's not hard to figure that they might be able to use the tutelary engines to teach them the business end of a scalpel when they get back on board ship. Might take a while, and be touch and go for a bit, but there's enough in the noggin' of a ship's engines to allow the Astartes to manage.


Or they could borrow one from the Black Templars to educate them.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> Or they could borrow one from the Black Templars to educate them.


Yes, hopefully other chapters would be nice enough to loan them a few apothercaries, so to speak. 

By the way, what did you mean when you said the Celestial Lions have a tribal vibe? They've always struck me as Medieval/knightly


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> Yes, hopefully other chapters would be nice enough to loan them a few apothercaries, so to speak.
> 
> By the way, what did you mean when you said the Celestial Lions have a tribal vibe? They've always struck me as Medieval/knightly


Not really when you read about them, I got serious vibes of the tribal Silver Skulls.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> Not really when you read about them, I got serious vibes of the tribal Silver Skulls.


How are the Silver Skulls tribal? I haven't read Gildar Rift. Could you explain?


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> How are the Silver Skulls tribal? I haven't read Gildar Rift. Could you explain?



Right from the lex
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Silver_Skulls

The Silver Skulls claim[8] and are believed to be descendants of the Ultramarines Chapter, however with the passage of time this remains unconfirmed, although they behave as a Codex Chapter[15] and fight alongside the Primogenitor Chapters as if they were their own kin.[15] Hailing from their homeworld of Varsarvia in the Ultima Segmentum, they are surrounded by numerous Xenos species, recently fighting costly yet significant battles against the Dark Eldar and Necrons.[15] The Silver Skulls also tattoo the skin of their entire bodies in honour markings, with the face being the last area to be marked, with the right to do so earned in battle.[13] 
There are two ways in which the Chapter cult deviates from the Codex Astartes, the first a custom inherited from their recruiting worlds: the practice of head taking. Especially powerful enemies are beheaded during battle, serving as trophies until victory is achieved. As part of its post-battle rituals, the Chapter selects the heads of the most powerful enemies, flense flesh from bone and layer the skulls in a coat of silver to be displayed within the Fortress-Monastery.[13][15] 
The second Codex deviation is their specific use of *Prognosticators*, the Silver Skulls Librarians and partial spiritual advisor alongside their Chaplains.[13][15]} These warriors are the seers of the Chapter, reading the Emperor's Tarot or Rune-stones for divination of the future, granting the squads and companies they are attached to an edge for the coming battle.[13][15] The Chapter takes the readings seriously, as such that on some occasions, the Prognosticators have counselled against the Chapter becoming embroiled in a particular war, however this can prove problematic as the honour of the chapter at times demands that they take part in a battle they know will end in defeat. Despite this somewhat fickle nature, the Chapter is known to fight with honour the length and breadth of the Imperium. [15]


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

I definitely don't see much of the Silver Skulls in them; the Skulls have more than enough love, after all. plenty of Chapters collect skulls (Skull Bearers, Mortifactors,etc.) and the second thing feels more of a Greek/Oracle "Don't let the Spartans fight when the omens are bad, you can't take the army, Highness" deal than a tribal thing.

The Celestial Lions are from a homeworld of savannah hunting and plains campfire storytelling. They're vaguely Middle Ages mid/south continental African, the way the Space Wolves are vaguely Dark Ages north Europe/Scandinavian.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I definitely don't see much of the Silver Skulls in them; the Skulls have more than enough love, after all. plenty of Chapters collect skulls (Skull Bearers, Mortifactors,etc.) and the second thing feels more of a Greek/Oracle "Don't let the Spartans fight when the omens are bad, you can't take the army, Highness" deal than a tribal thing.
> 
> The Celestial Lions are from a homeworld of savannah hunting and plains campfire storytelling. They're vaguely Middle Ages mid/south continental African, the way the Space Wolves are vaguely Dark Ages north Europe/Scandinavian.


Well it was mostly in regard to their tribal flair, but you put it down succincly, sir. But I must commend on the writting, muchly improved since Hellsreach. Grimaldus felt much more real with the added fleshing out done to him. I think that was why Hellsreach never rubbed that well with me, with the main character Grimaldus feeling so transparent, more of a walking plot device than a true character. But you did much better here. I am looking forward to your next writtings.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Brother Lucian said:


> Well it was mostly in regard to their tribal flair, but you put it down succincly, sir. But I must commend on the writting, muchly improved since Hellsreach. Grimaldus felt much more real with the added fleshing out done to him. I think that was why Hellsreach never rubbed that well with me, with the main character Grimaldus feeling so transparent, more of a walking plot device than a true character. But you did much better here. I am looking forward to your next writtings.


I like you. You're funny.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I'm not trying to kiss an author's ass, but could you elaborate on how Grimaldus was a "walking plot device", please?

I'm not trying to be rude, it's just that your earlier comment, re: the similarities between the Silver Skulls and the Celestial Lions left me wrong-footed. At the end of the day, what similarities do the two have besides "they are both written with a tribal influence"?


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Brother Lucian said:


> Grimaldus felt much more real with the added fleshing out done to him. I think that was why Hellsreach never rubbed that well with me, with the main character Grimaldus feeling so transparent, more of a walking plot device than a true character.


Gotta disagree strongly here. I think he's one of the best realised SM characters, and his interactions with the humans in the story really show just how detached SMs are from humanity. He is almost autistic in his dealings with them. It's like he's dealing with a yappy puppy, he doesn't know wether to pet it or kick it.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

While I understand the semi-autistic portrayal of Grimaldus to be central to his character, that is actually something I _don't_ like about AD-B's work. I have a hard time buying off on Space Marines finding "normal humans" and their mentalities/limitations alien or stupefying.

It's purely personal preference, mind you. I guess I always imagined the warriors of the Adeptus Astartes viewing the mortals of the Imperium with the sort of arrogance, amusement, and elitism that an Olympian would have reserved for a mere Achaean warrior. At best, he would benignly smile and shake his head at the frailty and foibles of those not blessed with the genes of the Emperor and the Primarchs; at worst he would scorn them and curse them for their weakness and cowardice. Not understand them, though? Eh...


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> While I understand the semi-autistic portrayal of Grimaldus to be central to his character, that is actually something I _don't_ like about AD-B's work. I have a hard time buying off on Space Marines finding "normal humans" and their mentalities/limitations alien or stupefying.
> 
> It's purely personal preference, mind you. I guess I always imagined the warriors of the Adeptus Astartes viewing the mortals of the Imperium with the sort of arrogance, amusement, and elitism that an Olympian would have reserved for a mere Achaean warrior. At best, he would benignly smile and shake his head at the frailty and foibles of those not blessed with the genes of the Emperor and the Primarchs; at worst he would scorn them and curse them for their weakness and cowardice. Not understand them, though? Eh...


Not understanding something they once were, to me, just cements the fact that the Astartes truly abandoned their humanity. I can't think of another better way that illustrates this fact. 

Former humans who undergo the ultimate sacrifice for mankind and become once-humans who no longer remember what it's like to love a woman, be afraid of the dark, etc.


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## Bobbyfbrewster (Oct 14, 2011)

I like the tragedy of it all the fact that a SM is so far removed from the very thing they are sworn to protect also ADB space marines are probably the best written in my eyes.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I get the concept, guys, and I get that it resonates with grimdark. I just don't think it's that plausible, is all. I know, I know, that's kind of a silly thing to say when it comes to a setting that's based on many implausible themes... but those generally deal with technology, magic, and ruinous gods thirsting for men's souls. :wink:


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

Bobbyfbrewster said:


> I like the tragedy of it all the fact that a SM is so far removed from the very thing they are sworn to protect also ADB space marines are probably the best written in my eyes


I can understand a SM is detached, dogmatic and brainwashed, (have you ever talked to a marine in a bar ?), the SM ADB's writes about are mosly consistent with a dogmatic ,bombastic, stick up the arse... ,Grimaldus is an example, the most striking example for me however is the genesis termi fighting Xarl. However, what I do not understand is why the CSM's (ADB writes about) are so much more human, extrapolation of a loyal SM to a CSM would suggest an equally dogmatic CSM or a more religious nutcase like the WB's. The CSM's returning in ADB his books have a very human touch to them which allows the reader to connect with them, this can go from the dark humor of Sevetar or the bloodspitter to Talos his relationship with Septimus, I find this not consequent. 
I understand that from a logical point of view the loyal SM are very dogmatic autistic and all, but this is still science fiction 
The only 'interesting' loyal SM I read about in ADB his books is Orfeus (I think ) the UM in betrayer (when he asks the WE if they are surrendering, pure nerd poetry).


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

piemelke said:


> the SM ADB's writes about are mosly consistent with a dogmatic ,bombastic, stick up the arse...


Read The Emperor's Gift. His GKs are all surprisingly human.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Read The Emperor's Gift. His GKs are all surprisingly human.


read it, and you are right,


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