# The crumbling imperium, unfair to stay a beat doll for everyone else?



## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Ive been speculating, what could give a needed boost to the Imperium, without it being over the tops such as the return of the demigod Primarchs or the Emperor himself?

the Emperor back, would cause untold problems, most notably with the imperial cult. And the primarchs, would have to be all or nothing, or you would slight any players of specific space marine legions/chapters to why their primarch wasnt returned. And then you pretty much have an I-win card for the imperium which isnt good for faction balance.

Then what does it leave the imperium? Malcador the Sigilite. He was still percieved as a 'human', not a demigod, even if a powerful psyker, and could give the Imperium a seriously needed boost by being the Imperial regent. Lets face it, the imperium is a divided mess constantly fighting against each other, and Malcador would be apt at gathering them together. Well used to shadow play and politicizing as seen in Nemesis.

What do you fellows think? Would malcador returned give the imperium a stronger boost, direction and drive, without it being over the top?


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

There is plans in the works already, they are just bogged down in red tape 


Serious note, the whole system is a cult that has gotten so big it has off shoot cults to maintain it. Add the fact that all of this has been in place for thousands of years and it goes out of it's way to stay stagnant in terms of progression and you are kinda screwed. 

Pushing a central 'leader' to the front would just make a new cult god figure I think. Why worship the Golden Throne when you have such an active and alive god to worship instead.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The Sigillite is beyond dead and no amount of fluff retcons can bring him back imo.

I don't like this widespread notion that if the Emperor were to return, the very cult and empire that worships him would explode into chaos.

They could easily televise the event or something of that nature to prevent anyone from discrediting his return as being fake or what have you.

Also were he to return, he could easily pierce the paranoia of perhaps every citizen in his empire using his massive psychic powers and assure them that he is all the real deal.

But it is too soon for anything massive like that to happen to the Imperium especially when as many people have stated before, all the stories we read about WH40k is from a historian's perspective.

And with that, almost an infinite amount of fluff can be created without it seeming stale, boring, etc. for least for quite some time.

We've barely scratched the surface I think with what can be told within the 40k timeline.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Brother Lucian,

That's the thing, though. There is no saving the Imperium. Or kick-starting it again.

What made the Imperium possible to begin with was the Emperor. Before him, there was no other great human empire was there? I'm pretty sure the sparse history of mankind before the Great Crusade indicates that - due to technological limitations and events that transpired - humans did not populate the Galaxy as a single, unified realm.

Thus, absent the qualities that the Emperor possessed - which, again, made the Imperium possible to begin with - what you have is a trainwreck of endless, labyrinthine bureaucracy that struggles to keep track of, and order over, a million or more worlds, countless billions of warriors, countless trillions of other human beings, a thousand Chapters of potentially sociopathic superhumans, an industrial base that often fears innovation and treats science as religion, and a transport infrastructure that is literally a highway to hell.

Cheers,
P.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The Sigillite is beyond dead and no amount of fluff retcons can bring him back imo.
> 
> I don't like this widespread notion that if the Emperor were to return, the very cult and empire that worships him would explode into chaos.
> 
> ...


 The only problem I have with this is nothing is a new shocker. Example, SWs fought the TS for Battle of the Fang. I wont read it, no why? CAUSE I KNOW THE ENDING!!!! SWs win or there would be no chapter. The problem with history as a main driver for fluff is that nothing can put you on the edge of your seat. 

Can you really honestly tell me you like to watch a Muder Mystery movie after knowing who the Killer is? Whats the point. 


Progress the fuking story.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Warlock in Training said:


> The only problem I have with this is nothing is a new shocker. Example, SWs fought the TS for Battle of the Fang. I wont read it, no why? CAUSE I KNOW THE ENDING!!!! SWs win or there would be no chapter. The problem with history as a main driver for fluff is that nothing can put you on the edge of your seat.
> 
> Can you really honestly tell me you like to watch a Muder Mystery movie after knowing who the Killer is? Whats the point.
> 
> ...


Battle for the Fang does have new suprises and revelations that makes it worth reading, like their secret reason to indulge in this battle at all. Its one of the better Space marine battles books and highly praised, you are cheating yourself if you dont read it.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Oh please, SWs win TS lose AGAIN.... nothing new other than the thoughts and feelings of those involved. Yes its kinda neat to get some insight, but thats all it is is insight. Soul Drinkers is awsome cause its new and no one knows how it will end fluff. Thats alot better and exiciting than reading HOW the SWs won another battle against the ALWAYS losing TSs.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Warlock in Training said:


> Oh please, SWs win TS lose AGAIN.... nothing new other than the thoughts and feelings of those involved. Yes its kinda neat to get some insight, but thats all it is is insight. Soul Drinkers is awsome cause its new and no one knows how it will end fluff. Thats alot better and exiciting than reading HOW the SWs won another battle against the ALWAYS losing TSs.


Eh, the Thousand Sons won the battle actually. While they did not seize the Fang, magnus the red achieved his special objective, which was why they came there after all. And by magnus' own words was the ONLY thing that truly mattered, and that the thousand sons achieved.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Warlock,

I would say two things:

1. The milieu's fictional historical setting - as presented by 40k eyes - is sparse, incomplete, and often inaccurate. Black Library and GW would posit that by investing in stories about the past (as opposed to advancing to the future), they can offer as much enjoyment in discovering what _actually happened_ (as opposed to what people thought happened) in detail as you would receive if the next (for example) Ultramarines novel was set in 41,001.

2. Sometimes, we have to like something for what it is. A murder mystery by its nature requires the unknown. 40k is about a shattered dream, a broken empire, an entire species descended into a dark age of fanaticism and ignorance. It's not "if" the Imperium - and Mankind along with it - falls... it's when. The revelations come in discovering how it got to this point.

That's just my humble opinion, though. 

Cheers,
P.


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## Masked Jackal (Dec 16, 2009)

It is a major part of the theme that the Imperium of Man is a crumbling regime, and has been for a long time. I don't see a reason to change that.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

Every book written even if it is 'the past' is advancing the story. Especially when the story is something that takes multiple books to do. As for the whole watching a mystery movie after you know who done it....I tend to wiki movie plots before I watch I also will read the last chapter as I start. I have no issues with finding out how point A went to point B. As long as its interesting along the way.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

What could give the Imperium a boost, short of the return of the Emperor? Finding a way to mass-produce the process of creating a Space Marine. That, of course, is really just as unlikely as the Emperor coming back; it would require free thinking scientists, unhindered by years of dogma, plus a Space Marine chapter allowing these individuals access to their gene-seed (and most likely access to a dead Space Marine) in order to figure out how exactly the process works.

The old adage goes, "There is less then one Marine for every world of the Imperium; but they are enough for the task at hand." Imagine if there were TWO Space Marines for every world in the Imperium. I think you'd be good to go.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

For every two Space Marines created, there is the chance of one of them turning to Chaos. 

So I wouldn't say that the more there are, the safer the Imperium will be.


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## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

The only way of giving the Imperium a boost to keep it slightly up and above its enemies without it being a major fluff changer is to find a whole new bunch of STC's or find a functioning STC machine (the one that actually contains all the blueprints and info). This would revolutionize the Imperium back to around the Dark Age of Technology and have the technological ability to revamp their military and deal with some of their problem with technological stagnation. It at the very least would solve with some of the production problems and the refound knowledge would give the Imperium some of their lost edge from the millenia of lost technology.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Warlock,
> 
> I would say two things:
> 
> ...


Well said.

I think that there are so many unknowns in the *history* of the 40k universe, that the future doesn't need to be explored for a long time, indeed, if at all.

Look at the Horus Heresy series as a prime example of what can be done by elaborating and focusing on the past, as opposed to to the future.

I have just finished reading _Helsreach_ by A-D-B and I think it was incredibly enjoyable, despite the fact that the outcome wasn't in doubt. 

But the way the journey was written, and the many twists and turns along the way are what kept me interested, depite the fact that



I knew the Orks would never actually take Armageddon



Edit: As for the original question, the return of a single Primarch or Emperor would actually cause the Imperium to collapse in my opinion. They just couldn't handle the stresses it would bring to the Ecclesially driven, post-Emperor, Imperium.

I actually supscribe to the philosophy that the Imperiums many enemies can only make it stronger. I think that the Imperium was always setting itself up for trouble as it relied on super-soldier astartes and demi-God Primarchs to forge its Empire in the first place.

In my opinion, the current Imperium of the 41st Millenium is human driven, and relies on real human beings at its core. It has covered their weaknesses as best it can with religious dogma, and it relies on fear and ignorance; but nevertheless I feel its more representitive of real_humanity_now more than ever in its history.

I also think that things aren't as bad as they are going to get, and would imagine the Imperium might well last to 50K or beyond, albiet in an increasingly weakening form.

But then, with the development of more and more human psykers, who is to say that humanity won't evolve in such a way that it manages to save some sort of vestage of Empire?


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

> I think that there are so many unknowns in the history of the 40k universe, that the future doesn't need to be explored for a long time, indeed, if at all.


Very true. However, I think the problem lies in that the timeline of the 40K universe is rather bantered around a bit randomly - you have so many conflicting sources and the overall scale of things just naturally lets the fluff get out of hand and become incoherent. 

Personally I think the most refreshing part of the Heresy series has been that the books have tidied up the time-line for alot of fluff fans. Things are a bit more sequential and give alot more time for you to digest their implications. I honestly wouldn't mind books called something like "The History of the Imperium" and dedicate it over a load of different volumes; however not in a Biased writing style, but just a pure history lesson of each of the major events in the Imperium. I really think this would work for the game as a whole and even in GW's favour for no other benefit other than to tidy things up. In many ways I feel that GW have made a Jigsaw puzzle of a back history the wrong way round: rather than having a big picture and cutting it into smaller pieces, they have loads of little pieces and are trying to make "A big picture" out of it.



> 2. Sometimes, we have to like something for what it is. A murder mystery by its nature requires the unknown. 40k is about a shattered dream, a broken empire, an entire species descended into a dark age of fanaticism and ignorance. It's not "if" the Imperium - and Mankind along with it - falls... it's when. The revelations come in discovering how it got to this point.


In a way, a real problem is that the fluff overshadows everything that happens in the 40k universe a little too much: yes I understand the fall and decay of the Imperium is a central theme, yes I understand that stagnation and ignorance play an important role in furthering this. However, you can't help but feel that after flogging the same dead horse over and over ("The end is nigh..." "The Imperium is slowly dying..." "Threats surround and move closer...") etc etc that you just want to give up and go "FFS can we just move this on a little bit."

Also harking back to my other point: coherency is seriously lacking. I understand that all the different canon sources have been written over many decades and through different writers. However the point still stands; I really do feel alot of people would stop complaining if a coherent, centralized history was produced. Afterall the success of the Horus Heresy series, just shows how hungry people are for this. 

Furthermore, if you take the "how did we get here?" approach and look at the massive scale battles - then your brought back to "the now" of the 40k universe and its sort of "So how does this effect anything?". Take for example Lord Solar Macharius: His fluff is all about conquering a 1000 worlds, freeing millions from darkness yada yada etc.... By my count the Imperium loses more than that a day - It matters so very little. The you go read on and you can't help but feel like every other name is just an extra getting their 15 minutes of fame in this space opera; who by the time you've finished reading are already having their accomplishments pissed on by a few faceless power-players. 

All in all I don't think there's anything wrong with the fluff as a whole - I don't think it deserves being attacked to be honest with you. It's rich, often well-written and it does a really good job of giving your some new tid-bits and nibbles of information to spark the imagination. However I do think it needs alot of tidying up, yes keep the juicy bits of meat, but trim the unnecessary fat away. However this may be due to the fact I really do subscribe to the idea that a solid storyline should have closure over endless open-ended speculation on what's to follow. There's just too much "you-decide..." writing going on which doesn't work when Black Library and GW are increasingly centralizing and documenting the "canon" story.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Originally the Horus Heresy was nothing more than a couple lines in a book, but then got expanded to the current alternate setting.

I heard some rumors about Horus heresy boxed sets, so this leaves me wondering. Could it infact herald a whole new range of stuff with a Horus Heresy age theme, emperor, primarchs and stuffs, to allow players to play with all the powerful stuff of that age, without upsetting the equilibrium and balance of the 40k timeline and factions?


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Moonschwine said:


> In a way, a real problem is that the fluff overshadows everything that happens in the 40k universe a little too much: yes I understand the fall and decay of the Imperium is a central theme, yes I understand that stagnation and ignorance play an important role in furthering this. However, you can't help but feel that after flogging the same dead horse over and over ("The end is nigh..." "The Imperium is slowly dying..." "Threats surround and move closer...") etc etc that you just want to give up and go "FFS can we just move this on a little bit."


This is exactly what got me interested in the fluff and the game in the first place, the way I have always looked at it is *you* are given the chance to write what happens in 41K. 
This attitude seems to have died out over the years but I still cling to the idea. 
Every last scrap of fluff is there to either be played out or as background for your own 'End of days' battles. 
In the 'olden days' when I was just starting out in the world of 40K we had Epic, massive armies on the table top to play out apocalyptic battles and to decide what would happen if X, Y or Z happened to the Imperium or the Eldar or whoever. 
Now we have Apoc, a game that should fulfill the same role. If you want to know what happens when Abaddon breaks through Cadia and heads for Terra then call round your mates set up the table and play it out, use normal 40K or Planet Strike for smaller battles and Apoc for the big deciders. Play out the campaign for a year or two if you want to, when you get to th end you'll have an answer. 

40K does not need to be advanced at all, if you really want to know what happens find out for yourselves and stop expecting GW to spoon feed you with 'facts'.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Moonschwine said:


> Very true. However, I think the problem lies in that the timeline of the 40K universe is rather bantered around a bit randomly - you have so many conflicting sources and the overall scale of things just naturally lets the fluff get out of hand and become incoherent.
> 
> Personally I think the most refreshing part of the Heresy series has been that the books have tidied up the time-line for alot of fluff fans. Things are a bit more sequential and give alot more time for you to digest their implications. I honestly wouldn't mind books called something like "The History of the Imperium" and dedicate it over a load of different volumes; however not in a Biased writing style, but just a pure history lesson of each of the major events in the Imperium. I really think this would work for the game as a whole and even in GW's favour for no other benefit other than to tidy things up. In many ways I feel that GW have made a Jigsaw puzzle of a back history the wrong way round: rather than having a big picture and cutting it into smaller pieces, they have loads of little pieces and are trying to make "A big picture" out of it.
> 
> ...


Well said. Anyone heard the phrase "Beating a Dead Horse with a Stick" ? Anyone? Its a common term used to describe something explaine/discussed/harpped on to the point where you want to scream "Who gives a fuck anymore..." 

However as Phoebus said its the nature of the beast. So there is no choice but to deal with it. I think its a shame that all the crazy stuff that happen in the UM novel Chapters Due will never make it to main stream fluff about the hardest battle the UMs had to fight since Hive Fleet Behometh..... it just sucks.


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

> This is exactly what got me interested in the fluff and the game in the first place, the way I have always looked at it is you are given the chance to write what happens in 41K.
> This attitude seems to have died out over the years but I still cling to the idea.
> Every last scrap of fluff is there to either be played out or as background for your own 'End of days' battles. Now we have Apoc, a game that should fulfill the same role. If you want to know what happens when Abaddon breaks through Cadia and heads for Terra then call round your mates set up the table and play it out, use normal 40K or Planet Strike for smaller battles and Apoc for the big deciders. Play out the campaign for a year or two if you want to, when you get to th end you'll have an answer.


Which then amounts to nothing because GW have a meta-story that overshadows everything - which is my whole point about the storyline having too much over-shadowing on games as a whole. I'd agree with your points, you should be an influence in writing the story of the 41st millennium - it's what attracted my own interests to the game; but there's now very good reason why your "outlook" is increasingly in the minority.

Mainly this is due to the fact GW hosts nation-wide super-campaigns on the scale / influence you talk about and then purposefully drill it down so it has absolutely no effect on the story-line. Yes back in the day it was "here are the armies - go fight stuff out!". Nowadays however your 2 year long home-brew campaign may answer the questions in your head but the meta-story is still there, overshadowing and making your conclusions worthless - enjoy your epic "eureka" moments in your campaign - they amount to sweet bugger all; and that's what really castrates the whole idea of "make your own interpretations" - you can't even make your own closure on the storyline of the 41st Millenium and move on to "write the future" in your own battles. 



> 40K does not need to be advanced at all, if you really want to know what happens find out for yourselves and stop expecting GW to spoon feed you with 'facts'.


Then GW should open the license up a bit and let people really go out on their own interpretations. Furthermore GW either forces facts upon you ("The Tau have always Existed") or simply retcon things quick and brutal ("Warhammer is a world in the 40k Universe, no wait It isn't...". 

That's not spoon feeding to me; In my opinion GW have made it clear over and over that they are the ones who decide what is what, they tell you when to stop, when to go. However they refuse to go forward in the story - everything consistently lingers on a "you decide" feature with overtones of "the end is nigh..." "time is short...". This is the horse that is now thoroughly beaten to dust. Again relating to my point that It makes no sense to have a large open-ended feature whilst at the same time fiercely centralizing a canon story - it's should be one or the other imo, not both.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I really don't get this notion that if the primarchs or even if the Emperor were to return everything would be awesome for the Imperium.What universe are you looking at?The threats that exist in the current 40k weren't even around in 30K. Who the hell were they fighting? Rebel forces that didn't want to be absorbed back into Imperium?Xenos threats where the Orks and Eldar were the greatest threats to imperial rule? That was with all the Primarchs and a fully functioning emperor. 

So what if they came back? Look at what happened on the world Murder. Two primarchs had to get involved to hold back the megarachinds.Now let's see what would happen with an entire tyranid hive fleet.What organism would the Tyranids create if they abosrbed the bio matter of a primarch. That's just one xenos faction.

Let's not forget the C'tan and their necron soldiers. With the awakening of the Nightbringer and the Deciever being active their technology is ancient and more advanced then anything short of old one tech if there is any. Then let's not forget that the entire Mechanicus has produced technology based on an imprisoned Void Dragon.That thing get free and from what I've read besides being one of the most powerful beings in the physical universe, it can control technology (espeically it's own).Nothing the primarchs faced in there time (besides the events of the heresy) would prepare them for one of the Emperor's deadliest secret.

Finally last but in no way the least Chaos. With half of their brothers now working for the enemy the remainder will have to face this threat like never before.The Emperor even if he came back would still be stuck on the throne with Magnus still being a traitor and all.So who do we have? Leman Russ,The Lion,Khan,Corax,Vulkan,and let's say the emperor could heal and revive Sanguinius and Gulliman. Dorn died heading off one of the black crusades so we know that despite all their power that the right warp creature(preferably a greater daemon,choose whatever side) can have their number.A fact that has probably not been delved into is that Greater daemons can kill primarchs.Fulgrim taking out Ferrus and Gulliman. Also if the gods hadn't had plans for Horus,that Great Unclean One he killed would have done him in as well on Davin. 

It boggles my mind that people think with assortment of threats that exist today the Primarchs would unfairly tip the scales in favor of the Imperium.Let's remember the Emperor himself almost ate it battling an enormous ork warlord.While they were a lot more powerful than your grunt astartes,they weren't invincible.The Emperor himself unmatched in humanity of pyschic might wasn't a deity,as he himself often said. The threats that exist now I believe would be equal to the primarchs themselves.The tyranid race,the C'tan and the necrons,and Chaos. I don't see them coming back and defeating Chaos,destroying the Hive Fleet,and defeating the Star Gods that the old ones themselves couldn't take.While I love stories of the primarchs I think there is a notion of giving them waaaaaay to much credit in power.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Deadeye776,

I don't think the Primarchs returning would necessarily lead to a golden age, per se, but I think you're underestimating their value in somewhat. Look at it this way: without ANY Primarchs, and often at the mercies of any unresponsive bureaucracy, the Imperium has managed to survive for ten millennia. Imagine how it might do if five Primarchs came back.

That's five superhuman genius strategists. At the very least, I would much rather have those five running my five Segmenta than some random cabal of Administratum lunatics and Lords Commander.

Beyond that, though, there are things the Primarchs bring to the table that go beyond mere genius. They are the acknowledged sons of the Emperor. They possess an authority unmatched by anyone else. Think about the amount of silliness that occurs - in broad terms - on account of the Imperium centering itself around a theocracy with an unresponsive godhead. A Primarch could, at the very least, set in motion the conditions for change.

Cheers,
P.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I personally think the backstabbing system that is in place would eat them alive. The corrupt rot that is the high end of the system would not accept losing their power, even if those that were taking it deserved it.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

I'm not sure about this. The whole system is based on the religious belief that the Emperor is god and his sons were second only to him. Betray the miraculously returned Primarchs and you would risk losing the loyalty of everyone under you.

Or, to put it another way, if Sebastian Thor could start a grassroots rebellion to reform the Imperium and the Ecclesiarchy, it's a stretch to assume FIVE Primarchs couldn't do so.


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

Moonschwine said:


> Which then amounts to nothing because GW have a meta-story that overshadows everything - which is my whole point about the storyline having too much over-shadowing on games as a whole. I'd agree with your points, you should be an influence in writing the story of the 41st millennium - it's what attracted my own interests to the game; but there's now very good reason why your "outlook" is increasingly in the minority.
> 
> Mainly this is due to the fact GW hosts nation-wide super-campaigns on the scale / influence you talk about and then purposefully drill it down so it has absolutely no effect on the story-line. Yes back in the day it was "here are the armies - go fight stuff out!". Nowadays however your 2 year long home-brew campaign may answer the questions in your head but the meta-story is still there, overshadowing and making your conclusions worthless - enjoy your epic "eureka" moments in your campaign - they amount to sweet bugger all; and that's what really castrates the whole idea of "make your own interpretations" - you can't even make your own closure on the storyline of the 41st Millenium and move on to "write the future" in your own battles.


Why can't you make your own closure, why can't you write your own future?

I'm yet to see it written anywhere that you are prohibited in any way from doing this.

40K is a retrospective setting, you cannot affect what has happened in the past in 40k any more than you can change our own history. 
Are stories about the English civil war flogging a dead horse or are they still enjoyable despite knowing what the outcome will be? 
Stories about the Roman empire, ancient Greece or Attila the Hun are no less entertaining for the fact that they have already happened.

But even these stories change over time, new evidence comes to light, new interpretations of are put forward and the story changes and evolves. 

What do you want GW to do when your home brew campaign comes to an end?
Would you like a write up and three pages of photos in WD?

There are no restrictions placed upon you by anyone saying what you can or can't do with the story line. Are GW's Men in Black going to roll up at your door and tell you off for playing a game to decide the fate of the Imperium?
Who is it that's placing all these restrictions on what your games can or cannot be about, I've played some amazing narrative campaigns over the years, no one has ever told me I'm not allowed to, no matter what the outcome was or how it effected the 'meta game'.




> Then GW should open the license up a bit and let people really go out on their own interpretations. Furthermore GW either forces facts upon you ("The Tau have always Existed") or simply retcon things quick and brutal ("Warhammer is a world in the 40k Universe, no wait It isn't...".


Open up the licence to who, gamers?

I really hope not, there's far too many SM fan boys out there for that to end well.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

normtheunsavoury said:


> 40K is a retrospective setting, you cannot affect what has happened in the past in 40k any more than you can change our own history.
> Are stories about the English civil war flogging a dead horse or are they still enjoyable despite knowing what the outcome will be?
> Stories about the Roman empire, ancient Greece or Attila the Hun are no less entertaining for the fact that they have already happened.


Thats all interesting too. After relearning it 20 times it gets old. I actually sometimes enjoy the recent events of our world. Why? Cause you cant tell what the outcome will be. Dont live in the past, live in the now, look to the futur.



normtheunsavoury said:


> But even these stories change over time, new evidence comes to light, new interpretations of are put forward and the story changes and evolves.


Theres a difference between "Hey, apparently Jesus might be black." no big deal its a simple change with no real impact, to "Carnifexes are the biggest Nid to stalk the Galaxy. NO WAIT its Trygons that wiped out UM Termies. NO WAIT!!! It was BIO TITANS!!!!" Retcon, retcon, retcon We know the story.... there is no unfolding new discoveries in something that has been covered in detail... its a story.... not real life.... this is called Retcon and its a sign of Ideas going stale.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Warlock in Training said:


> Thats all interesting too. After relearning it 20 times it gets old. I actually sometimes enjoy the recent events of our world. Why? Cause you cant tell what the outcome will be. Dont live in the past, live in the now, look to the futur.
> 
> 
> Theres a difference between "Hey, apparently Jesus might be black." no big deal its a simple change with no real impact, to "Carnifexes are the biggest Nid to stalk the Galaxy. NO WAIT its Trygons that wiped out UM Termies. NO WAIT!!! It was BIO TITANS!!!!" Retcon, retcon, retcon We know the story.... there is no unfolding new discoveries in something that has been covered in detail... its a story.... not real life.... this is called Retcon and its a sign of Ideas going stale.


Last time I checked 99% of 40K stuff is written from the imperiums point of view, in deathworld the catachans think that the planet is reacting to them as if they were an infection. What if somewhere we were to learn that in fact slaneesh was causing the things that happened in order to try and break the men on the surface? Or to put that into civil war terms what we found out that war started because Lincolns wife didn't like the fact southern girls were prettier than her? That's what historians do they research and correct what we think we know. Since 40K is past tense that still applies.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Warlock,

I agree in that retcons aren't much fun, but that's different from getting different stories set in the past. That is, yes, re-telling the same "How the Ultramarines First Company was destroyed" story over and over would suck... but there are literally 10,000 years of untold story in the 40k setting. We've hardly scratched the surface of the Scouring, or the wars against the Ecclesiarchy, or any number of other eras.

By contrast, you can only advance the timeline so much without re-doing the same themes over and over or risking killing the franchise by changing what's good about it too much.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

Phoebus said:


> I'm not sure about this. The whole system is based on the religious belief that the Emperor is god and his sons were second only to him. Betray the miraculously returned Primarchs and you would risk losing the loyalty of everyone under you.
> 
> Or, to put it another way, if Sebastian Thor could start a grassroots rebellion to reform the Imperium and the Ecclesiarchy, it's a stretch to assume FIVE Primarchs couldn't do so.


At the same time, the Primarchs weren't all known for being the most...rational beings in existence. I mean, if Vulcan came back, I'm sure he'd do a great job of gently guiding the Imperium back in the direction the Emperor had originally intended it go, trying to keep the shocking revelations to a minimum in order to preserve order. But I can certainly imagine, say, Leman Russ, showing up and immediately start taking everyone in charge to task over the way things have been run for the past ten millenia. I think a lot of Primarchs would start trying to clear house with the same bull-headedness that helped the Heresy happen in the first place. And that would certainly end in violence.

I guess it all depends on who came back, really.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Goge Vandire wasn't exactly rational, either, and he pretty much usurped the established Imperium (albeit only for a time).

Where the Primarchs are concerned, I think it's worth remembering that these were deep, layered beings. Sure, the way you described Russ is how modern Space Wolves think of him, and how he wanted outsiders to think of him, but in reality he was a rather nuanced, cunning individual. There's no reason to think that the Khan would be any different. Really, when you think about it, Angron (thanks to his implants) was the only truly out-of-control Primarch.

Cheers,
P.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Really, when you think about it, Angron (thanks to his implants) was the only truly out-of-control Primarch.


I disagree, I think he's only been depicted that way with the few scraps off information we've been given about him. I think he's quite in control of his anger but just has been mad for whatever reason in all the occasions we've seen him under the spotlight.

I imagine ADB will recreate his image.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I disagree, I think he's only been depicted that way with the few scraps off information we've been given about him. I think he's quite in control of his anger but just has been mad for whatever reason in all the occasions we've seen him under the spotlight.
> 
> I imagine ADB will recreate his image.


Angron have always been a loose cannon, looking for excuses to went his bottled up fury.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

You seem to forget he's a Primarch, not some drunken Ogryn.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Malus,

I'm aware that Angron isn't a 24/7 flake. There is plenty of fluff that shows him holding rational, intelligent conversations.

That having been said, of all the Primarchs, Angron truly is the only one who has very real, very immediate problems and they have to do with implants in his brain whose effects he cannot (always?) control.

That's what I'm getting at. The idea that, assuming no Primarchs had gone traitor but all were nonetheless gone for some reason, it's really only Angron that you'd need to worry about losing it and punching a hole through someone's head for not following direction.

Cheers,
P.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I'm sorry but I just don't see it. Ovcourse I understand that the primarchs can provide leadership and possibly begin to heal the imperium.What I'm sayin is that as for the war effort I don't see them being an overwhelming advantage against the myriad of threats the Imperium faces. Just with chaos alone Sanguinius was 1-1 with Kabandah with the only reason he lived through the first meeting was the daemons arrogance.The blood angles w/ their primarch almost got wiped out on siginus prime. 

I know the primarchs could come back and really help the imperium.In truth I believe that the authors have really been holding back.Why? If the full fury of the Necron/c'tan race came at them,if Abbaddon and launched a black crusade at the same time,an ork waagh! with Thraka came at them, and the tyranid hive fleet stopped it's vacation and finally made it to Terra the Imperium would be done. In the ensuing chaos I see mars being crompromised and the Dragon being freed. 

I'm sayin with the Primarchs back you can turn up the heat.How many stories that come out now tell about current 40k or crap that already gone down?The tyranids battling the orks is how they explain the hive fleet being busy. I don't know what the hell the Nightbringer,deciever,and outsider are doing with the necron.I guess they are vacationing too.If you bought the primarchs back you could have some really good battles that I'd love to see. Corax vs the Nightbringer. Leman Russ vs The Swarm Lord.You can keep this going. Traitor vs loyalist primarch rematches.I mean it's not like there are no opponents near there power level. Angraath vs Khan. You can keep this going.I think now more than the Crusades you can really have the primarchs tested against the universe where before they really only had the orks and eldar to worry about.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> I'm sorry but I just don't see it. Ovcourse I understand that the primarchs can provide leadership and possibly begin to heal the imperium.What I'm sayin is that as for the war effort I don't see them being an overwhelming advantage against the myriad of threats the Imperium faces.


Single combat between champions of the Ruinous Powers and Humanity us fun, thematically speaking, but it only encompasses a slight fraction of the wars waged.

What it really comes down to is that the Primarchs are superhuman geniuses, brilliant commanders with an instinctive understanding of war on both a small and a large (read: galactic) scale. There is so much evidence that the Imperium is hampered by commanders who alternately don't end up being such great field generals, don't know how to best use their assets (read: human wave attacks, etc.), or both. And we're not even getting into the larger, sector-sized Crusades that often take decades or longer to accomplish. A Primarch would be exponentially more capable than such individuals.

As for the stories that can be told with them, I'm in agreement with you. I don't see them doing it any time soon, though (aside from them not wanting to advance the timeline), because they're still trying to develop them properly and initially with the Horus Heresy series.

Cheers,
P.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> The Sigillite is beyond dead and no amount of fluff retcons can bring him back imo.
> 
> I don't like this widespread notion that if the Emperor were to return, the very cult and empire that worships him would explode into chaos.
> 
> ...


Yes because a proof stops people from forming consipiracies, just like JFKs assassination.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

Phoebus said:


> Where the Primarchs are concerned, I think it's worth remembering that these were deep, layered beings. Sure, the way you described Russ is how modern Space Wolves think of him, and how he wanted outsiders to think of him, but in reality he was a rather nuanced, cunning individual. There's no reason to think that the Khan would be any different. Really, when you think about it, Angron (thanks to his implants) was the only truly out-of-control Primarch.
> 
> Cheers,
> P.


I guess my point is that a Primarch would have to be a politician as much as a warrior in order to make sure things happened in a non-civil-war manner. I mean, someone asks Russ to please keep his voice down in 'Prospero Burns,' and he threatens to twist their arms off. Not the kind of attitude the powers-that-be of the Imperium would appreciate, and I can guarantee there WILL be some authorities that will be looking for any excuse to declare the returning Primarch to be nothing more then a Lord of Change in disguise. I'm not picking on Russ; he is definetely revealed to be an intelligent and insightful individual in 'Prospero Burns.' But he, and Primarchs like him, are used to getting their way. They're generals, soldiers, which is why a lot of them couldn't wrap their minds around the Emperor leaving the battlefront after the Ullanor campaign to govern Terra. If it was saving the Imperium from the Tyranids or the Necrons or Chaos, yes, certainly, all of them would be able to step up...but if it was causing socio-political change from the inside, I'm not sure all of them would be up to the task.
Not all of the Primarchs have good people skills. In fact, most don't. That's all I'm saying. :biggrin:


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> I'm aware that Angron isn't a 24/7 flake. There is plenty of fluff that shows him holding rational, intelligent conversations.


Really? lol I'm all for Angron being an intellectual behind the scenes but I don't recall any where he's having a normal conversation where he isn't shouting or killing stuff.



Phoebus said:


> That having been said, of all the Primarchs, Angron truly is the only one who has very real, very immediate problems and they have to do with implants in his brain whose effects he cannot (always?) control.


I'm of the opinion that the implants simply heighten one's aggression rather than making the user aggressive. 

With that said, I do not agree with you in that the implants are preventing Angron from being able to think/speak properly without sounding like a berserker, it's just the authors doing that.



Phoebus said:


> That's what I'm getting at. The idea that, assuming no Primarchs had gone traitor but all were nonetheless gone for some reason, it's really only Angron that you'd need to worry about losing it and punching a hole through someone's head for not following direction.


Just as it is implied that the Emperor created the Wolves with the intention of being fellow Astartes killers, could it not be possible that the Emperor had similar plans with Angron?

Perhaps Angron was the Emperor's ideal version of the anti-authoritarian figure? Destined to forever oppose anyone who dares and tries to control him except for the Emperor himself? 

Clearly that isn't what happened, what with Horus controlling him and all that. But it's clear that Angron at that point was just wanted to vent his fury against the Emperor and Horus provided him with the means to do so. 

But then again if I recall correctly, he disobeyed a direct order from his brother, landing on a planet to finish off Loken and I forget who else or something along those lines.

Just some stuff I came up with but my point is that perhaps the Emperor had something to do with Angron's temperament or it's simply due to his environment but I wouldn't assume it was all environmental given how wrathful he is.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

SonOfStan said:


> I guess my point is that a Primarch would have to be a politician as much as a warrior in order to make sure things happened in a non-civil-war manner. I mean, someone asks Russ to please keep his voice down in 'Prospero Burns,' and he threatens to twist their arms off.


That's an act, though. It's the role Russ plays, because it's a useful one. At the end of the day, though of the Primarchs were designed to also be diplomats, politicians, negotiators, etc.



> ... and I can guarantee there WILL be some authorities that will be looking for any excuse to declare the returning Primarch to be nothing more then a Lord of Change in disguise.


No doubt there, but that kind of scheme can only go so far.



> But he, and Primarchs like him, are used to getting their way.


In this, they are hardly unique. So are the humans currently ruling the Imperium. The difference being that the Primarchs are magnitudes more intelligent and competent than them. And they possess unchallengeable authority.



> They're generals, soldiers, which is why a lot of them couldn't wrap their minds around the Emperor leaving the battlefront after the Ullanor campaign to govern Terra.


Actually, let's be clear here. _Horus_ had reservations, and - after being wounded and corrupted - those reservations became exacerbated. He then in turn approached other Primarchs who had their own deep-seated issues or different problems with the Emperor and they schemed to rebel.

That is, Angron was already peeved at the Emperor and his men (as shown in the short story "The Rebirth") were paranoid about a status quo wherein bureaucrats resembling their lord's former arena masters would rule. Fulgrim was possessed. Mortarion was probably being corrupted by different means all along. Perturabo had his own grievances and may also have been corrupted by a gift of Horus. The Night Haunter was a sociopath. Magnus didn't even _want_ to join. Alpharius had his own game altogether. And Lorgar's issues with the Emperor had nothing to do with a general being dismayed at the Emperor stepping back.

What about the other side, though? The ones who weren't insane, or grafted with psycho-implants, or didn't have a Daemon talking for them, or didn't base their agenda on what the aliens thought was a good idea? Where are the accounts of Guilliman, the Lion, Corax, Vulkan, the Khan, Sanguinius, Dorn, Ferrus, or Russ offering something more than "Well, that sucked. Drive on!"



> ...but if it was causing socio-political change from the inside, I'm not sure all of them would be up to the task.


I don't think that's accurate. I think each of the loyal Primarchs that could conceivably come back showed in his own way that he was capable of assuming a mantle of leadership. Their transition to an environment of leading vast armies and fleets in a high-tech setting, across the length and breadth of the galaxy, was actually rather seamless.



> Not all of the Primarchs have good people skills. In fact, most don't. That's all I'm saying. :biggrin:


Each of them is shown as being a highly charismatic individual when he wishes to be, though.

Cheers,
P.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Really? lol I'm all for Angron being an intellectual behind the scenes but I don't recall any where he's having a normal conversation where he isn't shouting or killing stuff.


Even in older fluff, like the short story on the Siege of Terra, or Angron's attack on Armageddon, you can see Angron managing complete sentences, polysyllabic words, etc. 



> I'm of the opinion that the implants simply heighten one's aggression rather than making the user aggressive.


From the Index Astartes article:

_"Relics from the Dark Age of Technology, these would boost a warrior's aggression and strength in battle and turn him into a frenzied killer."_
...
_"Knowing how effective at boosting a warrior's prowess the psycho surgery could be, Angron ordered the Techmarines of the World Eaters to duplicate the process, using the implants in his head as a template. However, the art of this technology's construction had long since been forgotten and the early attempts at reproducing it were unreliable, often triggering uncontrollable and unstoppable psychotic episodes in the recipients."_

... which is pretty much what we see happening to Angron in "After Desh'ea". Thus, you have the problem wherein Angron - who is able to hold intelligent conversations - can have fits of anger that lead to tragic consequences.



> With that said, I do not agree with you in that the implants are preventing Angron from being able to think/speak properly without sounding like a berserker, it's just the authors doing that.


I don't understand this statement. I stated that Angron is able to have lucid, intelligent conversations. It's when his implants kick in that he turns into a berserker. This is rather well-established, I think.



> Just as it is implied that the Emperor created the Wolves with the intention of being fellow Astartes killers, could it not be possible that the Emperor had similar plans with Angron?


The Emperor had no control over where Angron would land or what would happen to him there. There's no way of knowing what Angron's demeanor and psychology would have been like had he landed in some other planet. What he is, it's due to the implants he received. The Emperor had no part in that.

Cheers,
P.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Couldnt the same be said of Russ? The Emp had no control where he would land or how would act and tarin his Asdtartes, yet here is Russ SWs the Emperors Anti Astartes Legion.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

And? I'm not sure what you're getting at. The Emperor supposedly needed an executioner. He needed someone who could be equal parts pragmatic and brutal. Had Russ not landed on Fenris, do you think the Emperor would have been, like, "Ah, man, I guess I won't have an executioner." Of course not.

Maybe it still would have been Russ, or maybe Russ would have been totally different because of his alternate upbringing, leading the Emperor to look to the next most brutal/pragmatic guy in the litter.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Phoebus said:


> And? I'm not sure what you're getting at. The Emperor supposedly needed an executioner. He needed someone who could be equal parts pragmatic and brutal. Had Russ not landed on Fenris, do you think the Emperor would have been, like, "Ah, man, I guess I won't have an executioner." Of course not.
> 
> Maybe it still would have been Russ, or maybe Russ would have been totally different because of his alternate upbringing, leading the Emperor to look to the next most brutal/pragmatic guy in the litter.


Plus Russ was far more cunning than most thought him to be. Angron in comparission was terribly unsubtle.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I get the whole them being geniuses thing.Congratulations. They're smart.However if you've read any books with Tzeentch's greater daemons I think that they will be able to match wits with the likes of the lion or if Gulliman get's to come back. Also let's not forget the primarchs that are working for chaos as well,so they have equal tests there as well. My thing is I really don't see the Primarchs coming back as giving the imperium an edge.Like I said if you look at the story these days the daemon primarchs really don't get involved in anything anymore. 

The C'tan have for whatever reason not really been that much of an issue and the tyranids haven't broken contact with the orks yet. All I'm saying is that with the primarchs here we could get back to all out war with everything coming at the imperium. C'tan from one side and Tyranids from the other. Chaos coming from the left with the orks coming in from the right. I really think you could keep the desperate situation of the imperium. As powerful as the primarchs are, you know that Khorne can create a crap ton of bloodthirsters and it only would take one to kill a primarch.Same thing for the other gods.We can see the primarchs tested against their former brothers and the forces that they are now in thrall too.Look at Dorn. That guy died heading off a chaos black crusade.We can watch Russ or the Lion do the same thing (maybe not die).

I'm saying that in the Battle of the Fang serious without going into spoilers here we all saw that last battle.It wasn't "hey who going to win" it was "how long is this guy going to last." True horror and suspense are built off of no win situations.The Daemon Princes are backed by the chaos gods and I'd like to watch the loyalists deal with them with only their own skills and powers. Like Russ slaughtering his way through bloodthirsters and arriving bloody,battered,and seething before Angron. He's got to take him before the planet falls to Khorne. The wolves are across the planet keeping the bulk of the force off him as he confronts his traitor brother.I promise even if it sucked everyones buying it to find out what would happen.
s


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

Phoebus said:


> I don't think that's accurate. I think each of the loyal Primarchs that could conceivably come back showed in his own way that he was capable of assuming a mantle of leadership. Their transition to an environment of leading vast armies and fleets in a high-tech setting, across the length and breadth of the galaxy, was actually rather seamless.


Primarchs aren't infallible, though. Look at how many issues they had with each other, during the pre-Heresy era. Lots of petty bickering, senseless goading, over-the-top competition, almost coming to violence on several occasions before the Heresy had even started. They had a difficult time getting along with each other, their equals, let alone deal with the Humans they had been created to lead. I'm not saying that any of them were stupid, or poor leaders. They are gods, after all, as far removed from a Space Marine as a Space Marine is removed from a human. All I'm saying, is that not every single one of the loyal Primarchs would have a stabilizing influence on the Imperium of the 41st millenia. It would be easier for some of them then it would be for others.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Phoebus said:


> And? I'm not sure what you're getting at. The Emperor supposedly needed an executioner. He needed someone who could be equal parts pragmatic and brutal. Had Russ not landed on Fenris, do you think the Emperor would have been, like, "Ah, man, I guess I won't have an executioner." Of course not.
> 
> Maybe it still would have been Russ, or maybe Russ would have been totally different because of his alternate upbringing, leading the Emperor to look to the next most brutal/pragmatic guy in the litter.


Exactly, wouldnt Angron and his soon to be World Eaters (I belive they were the War Hounds before) make good choices as well?

On a side note does the name War Hounds sound like possible Emps Dogs of War?


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> I get the whole them being geniuses thing.Congratulations. They're smart.However if you've read any books with Tzeentch's greater daemons I think that they will be able to match wits with the likes of the lion or if Gulliman get's to come back.


Man, that's the part that I'm trying to impress on you. You're listing these threats that would keep the Primarchs from making a difference - Greater Daemons for instance. These threats exist in the status quo. That is, our current setting. _In that status quo,_ normal humans have managed to somehow maintain the Imperium... and even had the occasional hurrah like the Macharian Crusade. These normal humans, in this status quo, are able to do all this despite the fact that Greater Daemons are _already_ assuredly scheming and plotting against them.

It thus becomes disingenuous, IMHO, to say that threats already contained by the Imperium would automatically stifle any effect the Primarchs might have.



> Also let's not forget the primarchs that are working for chaos as well,so they have equal tests there as well. ... Like I said if you look at the story these days the daemon primarchs really don't get involved in anything anymore.


Do you see the disparity in those two statements? The reasons Daemon Princes don't get involved, by the way, is that (A) they can't just drop in from the Eye of Terror and (B) they don't necessarily have a vested interest to do so. By contrast, a returned uncorrupted Primarch would very much have a vested interest in "correcting" the Imperium, leading it to victory, or both.



> The C'tan have for whatever reason not really been that much of an issue and the tyranids haven't broken contact with the orks yet. All I'm saying is that with the primarchs here we could get back to all out war with everything coming at the imperium.


No, that's an assumption on your part. You're talking about a concentrated, coordinated effort by other factions, but there is no such thing going on. The forces of Chaos don't have the ability to invade at will, for instance. If they could, the Imperium would be screwed regardless. The Necrons are awakening at their own pace. The Orks are frustratingly random. Only the Tyranids are a truly inexorable threat. The last two of those factions, by the way, would almost certainly not cooperate with any others.



> Look at Dorn. That guy died heading off a chaos black crusade.


Dorn was also psychologically impaired at the time. He may very well have had a death wish. He'd seen his father (far all intents and purposes) die, his Legion divided, humiliation at the hands of Perturabo, and an Imperium increasingly at odds with what he stood for.



> True horror and suspense are built off of no win situations.The Daemon Princes are backed by the chaos gods and I'd like to watch the loyalists deal with them with only their own skills and powers.


Incidentally, I'm not proposing that BL _does_ bring back the Primarchs. I prefer the setting as it is. I'm simply disagreeing with the notion that IF the Primarchs came back, they would somehow be a drop in the pond.

Cheers,
P.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

I would say the return of the Primarchs might give the corrupted ones a 'vested interest' in mucking things up. I still just do not see them getting very far in general, the uncorrupted Primarchs. The universe they exisited in is a rotten faded memeory, they just do not have access to the resources they did before and no matter how great and intelligent they are this won't change much. 

They could go out to some of the Crusades that are sputtering and lead them to victory sure, but the Imperium as a whole has decayed too much for it to actually revive itself. The best thing for the whole mess would probably be another time of darkness when the Warpstorms broke up everything. If the Primarchs returned after that happened then I think they would actually make a true difference.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

SonOfStan said:


> Primarchs aren't infallible, though. Look at how many issues they had with each other, during the pre-Heresy era. Lots of petty bickering, senseless goading, over-the-top competition, almost coming to violence on several occasions before the Heresy had even started. They had a difficult time getting along with each other, their equals, let alone deal with the Humans they had been created to lead.


The traits you describe above are associated with the Daemon Primarchs. Perturabo was the one that couldn't stand Dorn's calm assertion that he could beat him at his own game. Curze was the one who went into fits of insanity. Angron was the one who was compromised by psycho-surgery. Lorgar was the one whose religious beliefs set him apart from the rest. Mortarion was the one whose grim outlook did much the same.

By contrast, there's no such indication about Vulkan and Corax. The Lion was a pragmatist - but he didn't rock the boat. Even the Khan is never shown going Mongol-berserker on anyone. In fact, he's one of the Primarchs honored on Macragge, which would indicate that his views and activities were not so incompatible with what Guilliman was trying to do.



> All I'm saying, is that not every single one of the loyal Primarchs would have a stabilizing influence on the Imperium of the 41st millenia. It would be easier for some of them then it would be for others.


All I'm saying is that those who would come back (assuming they are not dead or corrupted) have not displayed the kind of problems you describe above. :wink:



scscofield said:


> I would say the return of the Primarchs might give the corrupted ones a 'vested interest' in mucking things up.


You have to remember two fundamental differences between these groups.

First, item (A) from above still stands. And, right off the bat, that means you can't truly correlate the two. Five loyal Primarchs sitting at the top of the pecking order of the Imperium are able to direct and control the resources, industry, and martial might of the Imperium. The Daemon Primarchs are able to wield and command only that which they can get into material universe. Look at Angron - Armageddon was a major conflict, but it's ultimately a very bloody footnote in history.

Secondly, the Daemon Primarchs don't have the same priorities, nor do they necessarily like each other. Magnus, "Fulgrim", and Angron - for example - aren't just not on the same page - they're not even in the same ballpark.



> I still just do not see them getting very far in general, the uncorrupted Primarchs. ... they just do not have access to the resources they did before ...


In some ways they have less, in some ways they have more, actually.



> ... and no matter how great and intelligent they are this won't change much.


Sure it would. Ever read the "Gaunt's Ghosts" series of books? If you did, remember the historical footnotes on the developments in the campaigns on the higher end of the scale, which led to advances and losses? Macaroth was a human Warmaster. He wasn't a super-genius. He was flawed, prone to mistakes - like any other person - and his mistakes led to reverses in his campaigns, the losses of hundreds of thousands or even millions of soldiers, and the enemy capturing several planets.

Now, replace Macaroth with a Primarch, and give said Primarch the same resources. A Primarch would have defeated the Anarch in a fraction of the time.

Or better yet, consider in that same series the poor leadership and strategic/tactical acumen demonstrated by so many commanders, which leads to untold hardship and losses for the Guard. Why? Because the Imperium had degraded into a state where the conviction the Emperor had for his cause - which led to entire planets being conquered by force, and accepted losses as necessary - has been replaced by outright callousness and disdain for the losses themselves.

In plain terms, Imperial forces in the Great Crusade accepted that they would suffer losses but they still looked to the Primarchs and their best Astartes commanders to plan appropriately, to win the best way possible. By contrast, the current Imperium's view on its soldiers boils down to feeding the furnace with enough wood to do the job. This isn't because humans are too stupid to fight better - they proved they could in the Great Crusade. It's because of ideology, and it doesn't change because the leadership espouses said ideology.

Cheers,
P.


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## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

The Gaunt's Ghost books were what I was basing my thoughts on actually. Macaroth was praised and remembered well for his leadership. Yet after his loss, the whole crusade just about folded and has been grinding since. So yes I think a Primarch could reverse this and make a difference, but this is one of many crusades. The current system is as you said meat grinder tactics, a lot of this is because the resources are so scattered and messed up. 

Five men no matter how godly they are can not change that in a short time. It would take those 5 men decades if not centuries to get everything that is scattered all over the place under a single control. This is assuming they do not fall during this time riding to the rescue of something. 

The other thing is everything I read showed that even the loyal Primarchs tended to be at each others throats over tactics and whatnot. That bickering will hinder as much as outside issues would hinder.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Stable loyal primarchs:

Sanguinius
Rogal Dorn
Roboute Guiliman
Jaghatai Khan
Vulkan
Corax
Lionel Johnson

Pretty much only Ferrus Manus and Leman Russ had truly serious problems with the people skills.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Brother Lucian said:


> Stable loyal primarchs:
> 
> Sanguinius
> Rogal Dorn
> ...


I hope your joking!? 

Dorn showed serious depression after he was pretty much picked to be head honcho of the Imperium, during the Scouring he just blindly let his frustrations get the better of him.

Corax was no better after he tried to rebuild his Legion with Monsters, a loss the RG NEVER fully recovered from. He was damage goods after that fiasco.

The Lion had his eye on the prize and depending who you believe, Descent of Angels/Fallen Angels, Lion was as much wanting the Throne for himself as much as Guilliman.

Guilliman... psssh. This guy not only bullied the other Legions and Primarchs to his Ideals and Codex Astartes, but he also chose to wait out the whole damn HH even tho he had 4/5 times the numbers of 16 out of 18 Legions. Not to mention he like Jhonson were VERY unhappy that Horus was picked as Warmaster and not either of them. He a Jealous man. He is upset that his Ultramaar is second to his Daddies Empire. Not to mention Guilly was VERY snubby and tend to look down on everyone else.

Theres VERY little info on the Khan and his personality. Almost non existent. So we have no clue how this guy is.

That leaves Vulkan and Sanguinius. Great picks.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> Corax was no better after he tried to rebuild his Legion with Monsters, a loss the RG NEVER fully recovered from. He was damage goods after that fiasco.


Maybe. Or maybe it was an issue he could overcome today. Ten thousand years ago, he was desperate to to undo what had happened to his Legion in the midst of the Heresy and the Scouring. Today, his gene-sons have survived their near-annihilation and are a valued part of the Imperium.



> The Lion had his eye on the prize and depending who you believe, Descent of Angels/Fallen Angels, Lion was as much wanting the Throne for himself as much as Guilliman.


With respect, that's a poor interpretation of the information given. Horus surmises that the Lion wants his position, but then El'Jonson turns out to be fiercely loyal and pragmatical. He spells out his stance on the matter. His refusal to Guilliman and commitment to the fight ahead makes insinuation that he wanted the Throne totally unfounded.



> Guilliman... psssh. This guy not only bullied the other Legions and Primarchs to his Ideals and Codex Astartes, but he also chose to wait out the whole damn HH even tho he had 4/5 times the numbers of 16 out of 18 Legions.


That doesn't make him unstable. In fact, the Imperium today maintains his Codex and organizational system, which means that IF he was one of the Primarchs to come back (he's not, he's mortally wounded) he would slide right back in.



> Not to mention he like Jhonson were VERY unhappy that Horus was picked as Warmaster and not either of them.


No, that's what Horus thinks. After his corruption has begin.



> He a Jealous man. He is upset that his Ultramaar is second to his Daddies Empire.


Yeah... that doesn't reconcile with the data available.



> Theres VERY little info on the Khan and his personality. Almost non existent. So we have no clue how this guy is.


We know that after gaining vengeance for his adopted father's murder, he engaged in systematic warfare to eliminate a threat on his tribal people. We know that when he was found by the Emperor, he identified the goal to bringing peace to the Galaxy by unifying all the worlds under one Imperium with his own plan to unify the tribes and end war on his homeworld.

He comes from a barbaric culture, but a barbarian he is not. He is ruthless when necessary, but calculating.



> That leaves Vulkan and Sanguinius. Great picks.


Sanguinius is dead. He's not coming back. Vulkan would be a good leader.



scscofield said:


> The current system is as you said meat grinder tactics, a lot of this is because the resources are so scattered and messed up.


I think that's our sticking point, there. I don't think that's the case. I think it's because of ideology that they have meat grinder tactics.



> Five men no matter how godly they are can not change that in a short time. It would take those 5 men decades if not centuries to get everything that is scattered all over the place under a single control.


I didn't assume this would happen overnight. Five Primarchs, five Segmenta. 



> The other thing is everything I read showed that even the loyal Primarchs tended to be at each others throats over tactics and whatnot. That bickering will hinder as much as outside issues would hinder.


Which ones, and when? Guilliman supposedly got into it with Alpharius, but he's not one of the five that could return.

Cheers,
P.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Phoebus said:


> Maybe. Or maybe it was an issue he could overcome today. Ten thousand years ago, he was desperate to to undo what had happened to his Legion in the midst of the Heresy and the Scouring. Today, his gene-sons have survived their near-annihilation and are a valued part of the Imperium.


I never said they RG arnt a valued part of the Astartes. Im saying their Primarch is not right in the head after the Monster fiasco. I cant remember if he went into the EoT or the Webway? Either way he was too messed up in the head to have made a impact since he left the RG and Imperium to fend for itself.




Phoebus said:


> That's just a poor interpretation of the information given. Horus surmises that the Lion wants his position, but then El'Jonson turns out to be fiercely loyal and pragmatical. He spells out his stance on the matter. His refusal to Guilliman and commitment to the fight ahead makes insinuation that he wanted the Throne totally unfounded.


Key word, Interpretation. Thats how I read it and I believe thats the case since its not spelled clearly anywhere otherwise.




Phoebus said:


> That doesn't make him unstable. In fact, the Imperium today maintains his Codex and organizational system, which means that IF he was one of the Primarchs to come back (he's not, he's mortally wounded) he would slide right back in.


I dont think hes unstable. I think his Brother Primarchs would have had problems coping with his BS and wanting to rule the Galaxy. Lets face it he truly seems to believe hes the best.




Phoebus said:


> No, that's what Horus thinks. After his corruption has begin.


Thats a poor excuse to use. _ After his corruption has begin._Poor excuse. So that auto makes any thoughts or sentences out of ANYBODY mouth that uses Chaos is discredited? Cause the Imperium never lies or has as many ugly issues as the followers of Chaos?




Phoebus said:


> Yeah... that doesn't reconcile with the data available.


I'm not sure what ya mean here. The Recent HH novels really paint him as hoping the Imperium keels over so his ideal Empire can be brought out. Lets Face it, Guilliman is the only Primarch with his own Empire within the Imperium.




Phoebus said:


> We know that after gaining vengeance for his adopted father's murder, he engaged in systematic warfare to eliminate a threat on his tribal people. We know that when he was found by the Emperor, he identified the goal to bringing peace to the Galaxy by unifying all the worlds under one Imperium with his own plan to unify the tribes and end war on his home world.
> 
> He comes from a barbaric culture, but a barbarian he is not. He is ruthless when necessary, but calculating.


Thats alot of info considering he hasn't really been featured in any HH books for much more than a Cameo. 





Phoebus said:


> Sanguinius is dead. He's not coming back. Vulkan would be a good leader.


We all know this, the topic is which Loyalist here had people skills.


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