# Trazyn the Infinite and the screaming giant of a man in Baroque Power armour



## Creator of Chaos

Now I've been reading the new necron codex which I think is brialliant for many reasons. (Makes crons competive, Introduce's some character and its just a good fun book even with the change in background lore but the special characters and the new modern timeline make up for it easily). Now my favourite character in this book aside from imotek is trazyn the galaxies most polite Troll and everyones favourite collecter of artifacts. Among his collection is a giant of a man in baroque Power armour which many of us have debated is one of the missing primarchs. 

Now my question to heresy is Assuming the primarch theory is correct is Just how would trazyn go about actually capturing and imprisoning a primarch? 

We all know he's been awake since at-least the heresy if not earlier but even with a full tomb world of stuff at his disposal (Hoards of warriors, Ctan Shards, Tomb Stalkers, mind Shackle Scarabs and himself of coarse) could he really have pulled it off and if So how?

Now any debate on this issue is welcome concerning the primarch theory but I really want to know how he could of pulled of such a thing and when and which primarch would have been most vulnerable. I'll give my theory on this later I want to hear what everyone else has to say first


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## Wusword77

Issue has been debated before in the following thread:

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=101932&highlight=giant+Baroque+Power+armour

Personally I think that it might not be a Primarch, as Power armor has been used by a number of beings in the Imperium, and all Space Marines are considered "giants" by normal men.


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## Serpion5

Wusword77 said:


> Personally I think that it might not be a Primarch, as Power armor has been used by a number of beings in the Imperium, and all Space Marines are considered "giants" by normal men.


True. But who would a necron consider "giant?"


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## Uber Ork

Dorn was brought down by facing unbelievable odds against a foe that's not nearly as advanced as the Necrons. I imagine there might be a number of advanced technology scenarios with which Trazyn could have captured a Primarch. 

As to which Primarch, if indeed Trazyn does have a Primarch in his collection, the description of it being a man leads me to believe it's one of the loyal Primarchs. I don't imagine a daemon prince would be described as a man, and that's clearly the description in the Necron dex.

Of the 9 loyal Primarchs... Dorn, Sanguinius, and Manus are dead, and Johnson and Guilliman lay in stasis on their home worlds. Russ and Corax are somewhere in the Eye of Terror, the Kahn is in the webway, and Vulkan's disappearance is still a mystery. 

Of the four possibilities, my money's on the Kahn or Vulkan. The Kahn because of the Necron's Dolmen Gates. It's possible, however unlikely, that he ran afoul of the Necrons in the webway. Vulkan, because well... his disappearance *is* still a mystery.


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## Wusword77

Serpion5 said:


> True. But who would a necron consider "giant?"


I don't think it matters what the Necrons would consider a "giant" as the point of reference is still a man.

Bugs tend to be really tiny compared to humans, but that doesn't mean we haven't seen "giant" versions of them that are still tiny to us.


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## piemelke

I might also be one of the lost primarchs (assuming Russ did not kill them)


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## LukeValantine

I would say its hinted at being someone of importance either they wouldn't have mentioned it at all. Really who gives a damn if its a xeno or even a space marine chapter master, how many 1000 of those have their been in 40k?


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## Otis The Barbarian

I've got my money on Vulkan. Apparently he was having some problems with the 'crons before he disappeared... :so_happy:


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## Deadeye776

Uber Ork said:


> Dorn was brought down by facing unbelievable odds against a foe that's not nearly as advanced as the Necrons. I imagine there might be a number of advanced technology scenarios with which Trazyn could have captured a Primarch.
> 
> As to which Primarch, if indeed Trazyn does have a Primarch in his collection, the description of it being a man leads me to believe it's one of the loyal Primarchs. I don't imagine a daemon prince would be described as a man, and that's clearly the description in the Necron dex.
> 
> Of the 9 loyal Primarchs... Dorn, Sanguinius, and Manus are dead, and Johnson and Guilliman lay in stasis on their home worlds. Russ and Corax are somewhere in the Eye of Terror, the Kahn is in the webway, and Vulkan's disappearance is still a mystery.
> 
> Of the four possibilities, my money's on the Kahn or Vulkan. The Kahn because of the Necron's Dolmen Gates. It's possible, however unlikely, that he ran afoul of the Necrons in the webway. Vulkan, because well... his disappearance *is* still a mystery.


 



O fthe loyal primarchs you mean Dorn,Sanguinius,Manus,and Gulliman are dead. He was put into stasis at the moment of his death. Key word being that they put a dead demigod into stasis the moment he died.


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## mob16151

I'd like for the figure to be Sigismund. The first Emperors champion. He's definitively more of a one of a kind collectible than a Primarch when you think about it.

If it was to be a Primarch though, I'd like for it to be Dorn.


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## Lux

Deadeye776 said:


> O fthe loyal primarchs you mean Dorn,Sanguinius,Manus,and Gulliman are dead. He was put into stasis at the moment of his death. Key word being that they put a dead demigod into stasis the moment he died.


This is opinion my dear fellow, as it came from a ultramarine captain, that of which it was merely his opinion. He nor any of the other ultramarines understand the biology of their primarch, nor are any of the apothecaries from the time of his entombment likely alive at that moment.

So yes, him being dead the moment they entered him into stasis is purely his finite, limited, opinion on it.


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## Uber Ork

Deadeye776 said:


> O fthe loyal primarchs you mean Dorn,Sanguinius,Manus,and Gulliman are dead. He was put into stasis at the moment of his death. Key word being that they put a dead demigod into stasis the moment he died.


I guess that depends on how you view the bit about his "healing" while in stasis. Whatever your take on the situation, my statement is correct. I said he was in stasis...


Uber Ork said:


> Johnson and Guilliman lay in stasis on their home worlds.


...and indeed he is in stasis.


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## DeathJester921

mob16151 said:


> I'd like for the figure to be Sigismund. The first Emperors champion. He's definitively more of a one of a kind collectible than a Primarch when you think about it.
> 
> If it was to be a Primarch though, I'd like for it to be Dorn.


You realize that Dorn is dead right? He died during one of the Black Crusade when assaulting the bridge of a Chaos ship (I believe). His body is encased in amber. So Dorn is definately not in some Necrons collection


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## ckcrawford

Serpion5 said:


> True. But who would a necron consider "giant?"


So true. I would think it would be a Primarch. And I think it was described as such to look like a primarch. 

Its not like he was... oh boi!!! I got one! I got a space marine!!!


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## Akatsuki13

ckcrawford said:


> So true. I would think it would be a Primarch. And I think it was described as such to look like a primarch.
> 
> Its not like he was... oh boi!!! I got one! I got a space marine!!!


Not necessarily. The average Necron appears to be of comparable height to an ordinary human so really any Astartes (or Grey Knight or Custodes for that matter) would match that vague description. Secondly you're implying that a single Space Marine wouldn't be special yet you're discounting those that risen mere hero status to legends among the warriors of the Imperium. Why wouldn't he find legendary heroes among the 'lesser' race as ideal centerpieces for his tableaus or as unique stand alone displays? Hell he has the head of Sebastion Thor on display so I think a particularly distinguished Astartes hero would fit right in.

Am I discounting a Primarch? No but I highly doubt it simply because it's too obvious.


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## LukeValantine

What ever it is its a clear hint that he has comething of great importance, GW is either hinting at a primarch or something of equal importance. I still say they wouldn't have put such a obvious tip of the hat if it was just some meaningless arastates. Hell necron kill and capture thos all the time. Imohtek has even crippled the supreme leader of the black templar what like 3 times?


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## Wusword77

LukeValantine said:


> What ever it is its a clear hint that he has comething of great importance, GW is either hinting at a primarch or something of equal importance. I still say they wouldn't have put such a obvious tip of the hat if it was just some meaningless arastates. Hell necron kill and capture thos all the time. Imohtek has even crippled the supreme leader of the black templar what like 3 times?


Or GW just put that passage in the codex to spark debate about what it could be. To be fair, there could be anyone in there. Just because a Primarch would be the most important person that *could* be in there doesn't mean a Primarch *is* in there

Other reasonable assumptions:

Sigismund of the Black Templars, though any high ranking CM from a second founding Chapter would work as well.
A Custode, maybe even Valdor.
A Grey Knight: Codex says they all have Baroque Power armor.
A member of the Chaos Legions
A survivor of the 2nd or 11th Legions

All of those are reasonable assumptions, if we assume that what is being held is actually a Space Marine. For all we know it could just be a 7 foot tall inquisitor in power armor.


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## Creator of Chaos

Akatsuki13 said:


> Not necessarily. The average Necron appears to be of comparable height to an ordinary human so really any Astartes (or Grey Knight or Custodes for that matter) would match that vague description. Secondly you're implying that a single Space Marine wouldn't be special yet you're discounting those that risen mere hero status to legends among the warriors of the Imperium. Why wouldn't he find legendary heroes among the 'lesser' race as ideal centerpieces for his tableaus or as unique stand alone displays? Hell he has the head of Sebastion Thor on display so I think a particularly distinguished Astartes hero would fit right in.
> 
> Am I discounting a Primarch? No but I highly doubt it simply because it's too obvious.


Have you seen the size of a average necron lord/Overlord on a table. There bigger then a standard space marine (yes I know not entirly accurate but still) so while I do feel its possible that it may be a space marne/Grey knight/Custodes hero i highly doubt that this figure is a Space marine plus it is likely Trayzyn already has a few dozen of them anyway. No this figure was mentioned because it was rare, something extrodinary. The centrepiece of his modern collection. Now while I'm not ruling out the space marine hero it is in my view more likely a primarch. My money in all honesty is on Corax. 

It was never confirmed that he made it to the eye of terror and in the state of mind he was in combined with the fact he was alone could have easily been overwelmed by something as simple as shackle scarabs and the lords wielding them. Maybe there were a few wraiths and tomb stalkers as well not to mention trazyn and his ability to keep coming back. The image does say his face was looked into a permant scream and given his state of mind it fits well. 
But I dont rule out Kahn or Vulcan Either. Kahn could have ran afoul of the crons in the webway and as Trayzyn was already operating around the galaxy at the time could have cornered him there in the moment of battle thus explaining the scream and his failure to return. There was also Vulcans disappearance during the dropsite massacre. Trazyn could have easily ambushed him and phased him out during the chaos but he did leave relics for his Chapter to find so he may have just went somewhere on his own. 

But back to the issue I really think the Man is a primarch I mean why should trazyn settle for less. Also I wonder what would happen if the Imperium found out about the primarch. I think trazyn would have more to worry about then a few regiments of catachans lol


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## Deadeye776

Lux said:


> This is opinion my dear fellow, as it came from a ultramarine captain, that of which it was merely his opinion. He nor any of the other ultramarines understand the biology of their primarch, nor are any of the apothecaries from the time of his entombment likely alive at that moment.
> 
> So yes, him being dead the moment they entered him into stasis is purely his finite, limited, opinion on it.


 

Well it's nto really an opinion so much as it's what's been said in every Ultramarine book and codex where he's mentioned that he is indeed dead. You saw how well Horus handled warp poison. He's dead and they put him in stasis. You can't heal in suspended animation.Why you ask? Because you are technically in a state of suspension, therefore everything has been paused.He lost to the Lord of Shadows and died. He's dead.


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## Serpion5

Akatsuki13 said:


> Not necessarily. The average Necron appears to be of comparable height to an ordinary human so really any Astartes (or Grey Knight or Custodes for that matter) would match that vague description. Secondly you're implying that a single Space Marine wouldn't be special yet you're discounting those that risen mere hero status to legends among the warriors of the Imperium. Why wouldn't he find legendary heroes among the 'lesser' race as ideal centerpieces for his tableaus or as unique stand alone displays? Hell he has the head of Sebastion Thor on display so I think a particularly distinguished Astartes hero would fit right in.
> 
> Am I discounting a Primarch? No but I highly doubt it simply because it's too obvious.


The average necron is of similar size to a space marine actually. They can pick up and throw humans several metres with the strength of one arm (Dead Men Walking). The necron leaders are of much greater stature. Uriel Ventris attempts to perform a running fly kick against one and is halted completely upon impact, likening it to hitting a solid wall (Nightbringer).

So I do think the necrons' perspective is valid here. To me at least, the most likely explanation seems to be Khan.


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## Boc

piemelke said:


> I might also be one of the lost primarchs (assuming Russ did not kill them)


I think this could also be a believable scenario, although if it _was_ it's doubtful whether any further information will be put out on it... which means if we want to know anything more, it'll be one of the loyalist primarchs.

As far as anyone such as a standard SM... doubtful


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## Uber Ork

Wusword77 said:


> Or GW just put that passage in the codex to spark debate about what it could be. To be fair, there could be anyone in there. Just because a Primarch would be the most important person that *could* be in there doesn't mean a Primarch *is* in there


I agree. GW purposely builds a certain amount of ambiguity into their fluff to create interest, spark debate, and allow gamers to create fun scenarios, armies, etc. They do this all the time as they have done since the beginning. The two missing Primarchs, the question of whether Russ, Khan, Vulkan, Corax, or Johnson ever going to come back (not to mention which ones or all of them), and yes... even the possible or impossible (depending on how you view it) potential healing of Guilliman.

However... just as it is true that a Primarch *could* be in Trazyn's collection, but may not be in there. It would also be true, that just because a Primarch *could not* be in there, doesn't mean one *isn't*. 



At this point we know by the clues...


> a giant of a man clad in baroque power armor, his face contorted in a permanent scream


...that:

1. - This figure is male
2. - He's a giant of a man
3. - He's wearing baroque power armor
4. - He's either in a state of suspended animation at the exact moment of a scream, or is dead and preserved with his final scream upon his face 


As I mentioned his being a man and wearing baroque armor would (IMO) most likely rule out his being an important CSM or fallen Primarch. Baroque is too clean and pristine a style to apply to CSM's, and a daemon prince could scarcely be described as a man.

So, narrowing it down to someone loyal to the Emperor, it would need to be a Primarch or fairly important or high ranking individual to be described as wearing Baroque power armor. Taking a look at the definition of Baroque we see...



> *Baroque:* Of, relating to, or characteristic of a style in art and architecture developed in Europe from the early 17th to mid-18th century, emphasizing dramatic, often strained effect and typified by bold, curving forms, elaborate ornamentation, and overall balance of disparate parts.


I think the fact that this suit of power armor is Baroque rules out Trazyn having an ordinary Astartes for sure. Taking a look at some examples of Baroque architecture and art you get a better feeling of what the armor might be like...



















This high level of "elaborate ornamentation" would only be warn by someone pretty important. However, as has already been mentioned the elite Grey Knights often have elaborate ornamentation. So can Chapter masters, chaplains, anyone wearing artificer armor such as a chapter champion, or a Custode, etc. So at this point we could, with a fair degree of confidence, say Trazyn has somebody of this nature. 



Finally... because the suspended scream is too vague and could apply to anyone, we have only one question remaining. As *Serpion* pointed, just how "giant of a man" is he? 

I did some looking through the Necron dex and, as of yet, haven't found a precise description of how large the heavily armored body types of Necron royalty/Lychguards, etc. are. As Trazyn has this body type, I felt it was relevant to the conversation. Not finding any written text, I shifted to artwork. Looking at the artwork in the dex that depicts these larger body types in situations with marines and other humans, we see this...

- *pg 11* depicts a pair of Triarch Praetorians towering over Imperial Guardsmen in a similar way to how Marines might.

- *pg 25* shows advancing Lychguard approaching a pair of Guardsmen in a trench. Due to the IG being in the trench it's hard to tell for sure, but as with pg 11 it looks like the Lychguard might tower over them in a similar way as to how marines would.

- *pg 31* shows a destroyer lord taking on a SM terminator. The upper body of the destroyer lord seems very similar in scale to the upper body of the SM terminator.

- *pg 35* shows a Lychguard standing over a fallen marine. It's hard to say for sure, but it looks like the Lychguard would be of similar stature, although the marine is clearly thicker than the Lychguard. 




Like the tabletop model comparison (where this larger Necron body type is taller than marines), the art isn't conclusive by any means. Actual models and art are but one component, but it is something to consider. On the tabletop and in the art, the larger Necron body type seems at least comparable to a standard marine. 

Next, I remembered a certain WD article. I flipped through my old WD's and came across this in US WD # 382 on pg 65. Before I get to the exact quote, I just want to preface it with some background. Matt Ward, author of the Necron dex, is playing in a 2 on 2 battle report with Necrons verses Marines and Eldar. Before playing they came up with a fun narrative to shape the scenario. About the scenario fluff Matt Ward says this on pg 46...


> We decided early on that it'd be fun to play a narrative battle, rather than a more standard 'pick up' game. ...I won't go into the detail of the story that ended up framing the battle - you'll find it laced throughout this article - but getting the narrative strait in *my head* first was really important.


So... with that in mind I present to you this quote from the battle report fluff that came directly from the author of both the space marine and necron dex's head. I give you Trazyn suddenly appearing in the midst of Captain Sicarius and a number of his space marines...


> Scarcely had Ixon finished speaking when a column of swirling darkness sprang into being between him and Sicarius. For a moment the darkness billowed and writhed, then dispersed like smoke upon the breeze to leave two figures standing amidst the knot of Ultramarines. The Space Marines reacted at once. Scarcely had the shroud of darkness cleared before the intruders found themselves under the unflinching sights of a half dozen bolt pistols.
> 
> Chief target of the Ultramarines' aim was a hooded Necron who, despite his stoop, stood a good head taller than any of the assembled Space Marines.



So, despite his stoop he still stood a good head taller than any of the space marines. If *Serpion* has no objections, I'd like to amend his earlier question...



Serpion5 said:


> True. But who would a necron *(who even while having a stoop, is a good head taller than a space marine hero like Sicarius and the marines with him)* consider "giant?"




This fluff text from WD composed by the author of both the marine and necron dex when taken along with the evidence put forth on the table top (models) and in the art, lead me to believe that it is highly likely Trazyn could have a Primarch.



.


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## Akatsuki13

Didn't know that about the Necron height. However having reread the article in the Codex I'm struck at just how neutral it is.



> ...a giant of a man clad in baroque power armour, his face contorted in a permanent scream...


It says 'giant of man' implying that he's a giant in comparison to the average man rather giant in comparison to Trazyn himself which again leaves the more likely possibility of it being an Astartes, a Grey Knight, a Custodes or even a biologically enhanced Inquisitor as some have been described as close to Astartes in size.

And we also have to consider Trayzn's view of things. What does he consider significant enough to warrant being in his collection? There is no doubt that the Primarchs achieved great military victories and conquests in their time but would that alone be enough? For most of the Primarchs that's really all they have. Horus, Guilliman and Lorgar would top the list of those who have had the greatest impact the Imperium as a whole and they are all accounted for. Unless another Primarch achieved something that Trazyn considers historically significant but no one else realizes it.

And for that matter was he even awake during that era? Outside of the Silent King and the Praetorians who never entered the stasis we have no solid word that any Necrons were awake back then.

I think this idea of it being a Primarch is more wishful thinking on the part of us the fans than anything else. Let's face most of us emphasize with the Imperium more than any other race in 40k. It isn't surprising considering they are us. Beyond that they fighting an endless war on every front just to survive and in some ways the Imperium is dying a slow death from a thousand bleeding wounds. Some people want to believe that someone like a Primarch could arrive, stem the bleeding and perhaps even improve the Imperium as a whole.

Or they just just want to see the return of one of most bad ass beings in all the 40k universe and just watch them do what they do best.

Of course given that the individual is screaming could hint that perhaps it isn't a historically important individual but rather someone that may have earned Trazyn's ire. It could be that they destroyed a one of a kind item that Trazyn sought for his collection and he decided to settle for the next best thing, the man who destroyed said one of a kind item and the man's screaming was due to a measure of retribution Trazyn inflicted upon him before adding him to the collection. Another possibility could be that Trazyn wanted the armor the man was wearing and merely took him along with it rather than waste time removing it from his body.

Ultimately it really doesn't matter who it is or whether they are even alive simply because it's highly unlike GW is ever going to do something with piece of a sentence. More likely it is an attempt by the writers to illustrate the wide range of things Trazyn collects.


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## LukeValantine

One question for you reply. Why the hell would a necron use a humans perspective on what qualifies as a giant? That's like us saying a Sheep looks big enough to ride on because we happen to be in a room with a bunch of midgets. Really from the posts so far it has been shown that even lowly warriors are marine sized. hence it is doubtful that any necron would consider someone 7-8feet tall a giant unless he was referencing other humans. Its just common sense.


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## Akatsuki13

No the entry itself is neutral in perspective, much like a section out of a history book. It objectively talks about him, what he's like, what drives, what he's done and what he typically does without any particular positive or negative bias.

They say "...a giant of a man...", in other words the man is larger than normal humans but there's nothing what so ever saying that the man is larger than the Necrons or Trazyn. If you stick a SM and Trazyn in a room together you can say that Trazyn is taller but at the same time the SM still towers over ordinary men. Just because he's standing next to someone larger does not change that fact.


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## Uber Ork

Akatsuki13 said:


> Didn't know that about the Necron height. However having reread the article in the Codex I'm struck at just how neutral it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...a giant of a man clad in baroque power armour, his face contorted in a permanent scream...
> 
> 
> 
> It says 'giant of man' implying that he's a giant in comparison to the average man rather giant in comparison to Trazyn himself which again leaves the more likely possibility of it being an Astartes, a Grey Knight, a Custodes or even a biologically enhanced Inquisitor as some have been described as close to Astartes in size.
Click to expand...

If you were to read just a little bit further (the next few sentences in fact) you will see that the piece on Trazyn is anything but neutral. Things are very much written from a Necron perspective, and not just any perspective but one that defends Tazyn's attitude on the acquisition of history...



> *pg 58 Necron dex*
> It is a hoard eve growing, for history is always on the march, and Trazyn strives to keep pace. Alas, few worlds willingly give up the artifacts Trazyn seeks of them, selfishly clutching onto the few meaningful things in their civilization, rather than offering them up to be preserved through the ages. In such circumstances, Trazyn has little choice but to muster his armies and take them by force - if this results in the destruction of a city, a planet or an entire sector, so be it.


If it were written from a human perspective, the author wouldn't use phrases like _"selfishly clutching onto the few meaningful things in their civilization,"_ or _"if this results in the destruction of a city, a planet, or an entire sector, so be it."_ It also seeks to defend Trazyn's view by using phrases like, _"Trazyn has little choice,"_ and again _"if this results in the destruction... so be it."_ 

I think we can safely say that this piece is written from a pro Trazyn Necron perspective. Why? Because Trazyn collects artifacts from everyone, and would willingly destroy anyone else to get what he needs. I hardly imagine anyone from the getting destroyed perspective defending him. So once again we're back at who would a Necron consider "giant?" 

It's not like they haven't seen space marines before. They've seen them tons of times. Why wouldn't they just say "a space marine clad in baroque power armor?" With Sabastian Thor's head they were very specific. If it was just a space marine, I believe they would have said so. GW left it deliberately ambiguous so that the fans could debate this. I think by leaving this line ambiguous, they purposely left open the potential for Trazyn to have a Primarch. 







Akatsuki13 said:


> And we also have to consider Trayzn's view of things. What does he consider significant enough to warrant being in his collection? There is no doubt that the Primarchs achieved great military victories and conquests in their time but would that alone be enough? For most of the Primarchs that's really all they have. Horus, Guilliman and Lorgar would top the list of those who have had the greatest impact the Imperium as a whole and they are all accounted for. Unless another Primarch achieved something that Trazyn considers historically significant but no one else realizes it.


I think you're missing the point of history. When you go to a museum and you see a dinosaur skeleton, or ancient arrow head, etc. what about those things is significant? Was that particular dinosaur or arrow head significant in their day? Was the arrow head used to achieve a great military victory or conquest? No. They're significant because they, although not having achieved anything significant themselves, are examples from the era of which they were a part (i.e. they're a part of history).

In addition, are you really saying that acquiring one of a limited edition of only 20 beings in the entire universe, who were each (save the two missing Primarchs) historically instrumental in the galactic reunification of mankind and the forging of a million separate worlds into the Imperium, isn't "significant enough?" That makes no sense to me. 






Akatsuki13 said:


> And for that matter was he even awake during that era? Outside of the Silent King and the Praetorians who never entered the stasis we have no solid word that any Necrons were awake back then.


Would he need to be? We have no idea how long Russ, Corax, Vulkan, and the Khan might have lived, or even if they're still alive as we speak. At the minimum, it seems completely plausible that Trazyn could have run across any of the four of these.

We don't know exactly when he awoke. The Necron dex says this on pg 8...


> The awakening has been far from precise, and the Necrons have not arisen as one but in fitful starts over scattered millennia...


We know that the Necrons went to sleep until the time of the Eldar had passed (Necron dex pg 7). We also know that the fall of the Eldar and the birth of Slaanesh took place in c.M31 (Dark Eldar dex pg 20). At that time I think it's fair to say, the time of the Eldar had passed. For all we know, the shock wave of Slaanesh's birth could have started the Necrons waking. Who knows. Using a term like "scattered millennia" is definitely ambiguous, but in no way rules out that Trazyn couldn't have been awake in time to meet a Primarch.

Besides this, there's an intriguing piece of fluff found in the exact same WD I quoted from previously. *US WD # 382 pg. 65*


> ...Trazyn continued. 'Sadly, although his army made good their escape, his personal retreat was something of a failure. Imotekh wishes you to consider him a gift, from one warrior to another.'
> 'Most generous I'm sure,' replied Sicarius evenly, 'but you must know that this changes nothing. Your master is a threat to Ultramar. I'll stop at nothing to see him slain.'
> 'Sadly, and though I wish it were otherwise, I think his regal magnificence Imotekh is a foe beyond even you, scion of Guilliman. I certainly am, but don't concern yourself; we'll meet again before long. You see, I have a mind to visit Macragge. Your frozen godling is an old friend, and I rather think he'd be better served in my company than yours.' With that , Trazyn threw back his silver head and laughed...


 It appears Trazyn's been around for a while... a long while. 






Akatsuki13 said:


> I think this idea of it being a Primarch is more wishful thinking on the part of us the fans than anything else. Let's face most of us emphasize with the Imperium more than any other race in 40k. It isn't surprising considering they are us.


Precisely. Look at how well the HH books are doing. What are we up to now... 19 books (not to mention the audio books) and we're still no where near the actual battle of Terra. I think GW purposely left the "giant of a man clad in baroque power armor," ambiguous to stir us as fans and get us excited about the hobby and where it's going. 






Akatsuki13 said:


> Of course given that the individual is screaming could hint that perhaps it isn't a historically important individual but rather someone that may have earned Trazyn's ire. It could be that they destroyed a one of a kind item that Trazyn sought for his collection and he decided to settle for the next best thing, the man who destroyed said one of a kind item and the man's screaming was due to a measure of retribution Trazyn inflicted upon him before adding him to the collection. Another possibility could be that Trazyn wanted the armor the man was wearing and merely took him along with it rather than waste time removing it from his body.


Lots of people scream. In my mind this could mean a lot of things. However, none of them would exclude a Primarch. 







Akatsuki13 said:


> Ultimately it really doesn't matter who it is or whether they are even alive simply because it's highly unlike GW is ever going to do something with piece of a sentence. More likely it is an attempt by the writers to illustrate the wide range of things Trazyn collects.


 Definitely possible. However, they could also do something huge with it. It was after all... a tiny previously insignificant line of text that gave birth to the entire Horus Heresy. 



> *US WD # 385 pg's IV and VI of the Warhammer 40,000 25 year special anniversary edition*
> 
> *pg IV THE HORUS HERESY text box at the bottom of the page...*
> "The Emperor caught Horus by the heel and cast him to the Eye of Terror and with him the third part of the hosts of the Imperium."
> No one knew at the time that a small text box written by Rick Priestly in the Chapter Approved book would become such a pivotal event in 40K history. It has since formed the basis of games, countless pages of background and spawned 18 best-selling novels so far.
> 
> *pg VI Jervis Johnson talking...*
> Absolutely, and again, people often mistake these happy accidents as some great plan. But that small bit of text gave me the justification I needed to have these identical models fight each other, and from there the Horus Heresy came to be.






.


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## Chompy Bits

Uber Ork said:


> I think we can safely say that this piece is written from a pro Trazyn Necron perspective. Why? Because Trazyn collects artifacts from everyone, and would willingly destroy anyone else to get what he needs. I hardly imagine anyone from the getting destroyed perspective defending him. So once again we're back at who would a Necron consider "giant?"
> 
> It's not like they haven't seen space marines before. They've seen them tons of times. Why wouldn't they just say "a space marine clad in baroque power armor?" With Sabastian Thor's head they were very specific. If it was just a space marine, I believe they would have said so. GW left it deliberately ambiguous so that the fans could debate this. I think by leaving this line ambiguous, they purposely left open the potential for Trazyn to have a Primarch.


Necrons have also seen regular humans before, so it could very easily still be an exceptionally large man, seeing as they mention 'giant of a *man*', implying that said individual is large by human scale. Otherwise they simply could have said 'a giant in baroque power armour'. 

Personally, I dislike the idea that Trazyn has a primarch displayed as a friggin museum exhibit. To me it detracts from what a primarch is supposed to be. They're supposed to be twenty unique demigods, the greatest warriors the galaxy has ever seen. But now we have some robotic troll who just nabs one and puts him in a display case? Sounds shit to me. But hey, that's just my opinion.


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## Serpion5

Bear in mind that the necrons were and still are a very powerful race. Why would they care how badass a primarch is supposed to be? 

All that would matter to Trazyn was that he was somehow historically important.


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## Uber Ork

Chompy Bits said:


> Necrons have also seen regular humans before, so it could very easily still be an exceptionally large man, seeing as they mention 'giant of a *man*', implying that said individual is large by human scale. Otherwise they simply could have said 'a giant in baroque power armour'.


Yes it could be. Unless GW expands on this we'll never truly know. GW's leaving it unclear has left the door open for many possibilities. One of which, would be for him to have a Primarch. 







Chompy Bits said:


> Personally, I dislike the idea that Trazyn has a primarch displayed as a friggin museum exhibit. To me it detracts from what a primarch is supposed to be. They're supposed to be twenty unique demigods, the greatest warriors the galaxy has ever seen. But now we have some robotic troll who just nabs one and puts him in a display case? Sounds @#!*% to me. But hey, that's just my opinion.


To be fair, they're 20 of the greatest human warriors the galaxy has ever seen. There are plenty of other species out there, including the Necrons who have amazing warriors. 

We know from 40K history that while the Primarch's were indeed amazing (no argument from me there), they were capable of being killed or defeated . In addition, we also know that Necron technology is incredibly advanced. There could be a hundred scenarios in which a Primarch was outnumbered, surrounded, and incapacitated by some incredible bit of Necron tech. If Dorn could be beaten by overwhelming CSM forces, then another Primarch could be incapacitated and captured by the Necrons in some sort of stasis. 

If you think about it, we don't know what kind of scream this giant of a man has. It could be a scream of pain, or it could just as easily be a scream of vengeance. I picture something like this...

The Kahn or Vulkan (etc.) are incredibly outnumbered by innumerable legions of Necrons and C'tan shards. The elite guard of marines accompanying them have killed many, 6, 7, maybe 10 to 1, but as the battle rages on more and more of their number begin to fall. Eventually, only the Kahn or Vulkan is left. The Necrons cease their attack and lower their weapons. The Primarch stands.

The silent Necrons part as a tall slightly stooped figure approaches. The Primarch filled with unquenchable rage, raises his weapon, and releases a defiant war cry fueled by the righteous fury of his final stand. Trazyn, if he were physically capable of it, smiles. As the Primarch begins his final charge, Trazyn triggers an rare and ancient. A stasis field.

Instantly, the giant of a man clad in baroque power armor is frozen in time, his face contorted in a permanent scream. Now where there was fury and rage, there is only silence.


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## CPT Killjoy

I am casting my vote for Khan. After reading all of the posts here (most with some serious research behind them it seems like), I feel that he makes the most sense. Here’s why:

1)He is a “Giant of a Man”. Regardless of who’s perspective you take here, Necrons or Humans, this is one big guy.

2)He is disappeared without a trace. GW has seen fit to have him not only alive, but missing somewhere in the webway. Which brings me to my next point….

3)He is not only a space marine, but a Primarch. Beyond that, he is one of the only humans to ever have accessed the webway. So if you are Trazyn, and you find a Primarch who has just exited the webway (or is still in it), I would imagine you would think to yourself “Wow, that’s the biggest human I have ever seen, he looks really important, and he has accessed the webway, amazing”. Then, once the inevitable fight ensued, and after he killed you several times, I would imagine that you would further think to yourself “WHY WON”T HE DIE!, He must be the strongest human in existence, and possibly the greatest fighter of them all!”. Once you finally subdued him, I would imagine that rather than destroy him, you may want to put someone like him in your collection….

4)Finally, Khan, being a White Scar, always had a battle cry. I would imagine that whether just before dying, or while charging his opponent, his face would be contorted in a horrifying scream that would cause anything but a machine to feel fear. Once defeted, I would further think that he would continue screaming in impotent rage at his defeat.

Now while I fully agree that GW has more than likely just put this simple sentence in the Necron Dex so that it could be argued over in forums just like this one, and that it in no way does it have to be Khan, I still say that he is probably the best candidate.


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## CPT Killjoy

In addition to the above, I am discounting Vulkan because I'm fairly certain that he is waiting to be found by his chapter somewhere (in stasis, dead, or otherwise). No one leaves clues behind for nothing.


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## Barnster

We know there are regular space marines in his collection so it is really unlikely to be a generic character

My money is still on Night Haunter, Curze, We know that he confronted M'shea but something happened, before the result was finalised, could that something be the arrival of Monoliths and Doom Scythes of Trazyns force???. He is one of the only 2 traitor primarchs that we're unsure of their fate (the other being Alpharius.... I don't beleive the Gulliman story, seems stupid for a primarch that has been oft remarked as a tactical genius)

The baraque armour I view as mening "OLD" rather than describing neo classical french architecture. The hint about a scream is what sells it to me though, peotic justice 


Trazyn has ben quiet lately of course as he discovered ebay and found that theres no reason to go raiding planets as long as he has a paypal account


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## Buttons

My favourite ideas are

Constantin Valdor
One of the first Grey Knights or Inquisitors
An original techno-barbarian

They aren't quite as powerful as a Primarch (except for Valdor who IIRC defeated Horus in a sparring match) and are people that would likely be considered worthy of Trazyn's collection. 

Also because it sounds lulzy

Robute Guilleman (the one on Ultramar is just Alpharius spying on the Ultramarines)

The God Emperor of Man (the one on Terra is fake)

Horus' Original Body (The Black Legion destroyed a fake)

Sanguinius (Dorn carried the Emperor back from Horus' ship, who brought Sanguinius back?)


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## Archon Dan

The figure is not technically in Trazyn's collection. It is a holo-light statue and I believe the process of creating it kills or destroys the subject. As this is probably painful, that would explain the scream. It is unclear how long the process takes, though in Trazyn's message to Valeria, it does say he had to restrain some Catachans to perform the process.

As he has regiments of Catachans, it is not the figures that would intrigue him but what they represent as part of some historical significance. One of the Primarchs would be historically significant because the represent the power of the Emperor. But I doubt Trazyn would be satisfied with just one. Aside from being able to transfer bodies it is said he is a master of deception and disguise. Why not go to McCragge and steal Guiliman's body? He's probably unaware of it.

Perhaps he took Vulcan because he was known for being a technological adept. Necrons in general have an affinity for advanced and archaic technology and Trazyn takes this to a whole new level. Vulcan was good at creating weapons, though some of the other Primarchs seemed to be as well, though Manus died and Fulgrim fell to Chaos.

That being said, there are many Marines and Tech-priests that represent Imperium technology just as well. The Iron Hands are not too far behind the Necrons, considering flesh to be frail and cybernetically augmenting themselves more than others. It is possible, Trazyn felt some distant kinship to them and collected one. He already admitted to similar feelings with Valeria, seeing the Inquisitor as a collector like himself.


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## Akatsuki13

Barnster said:


> My money is still on Night Haunter, Curze, We know that he confronted M'shea but something happened, before the result was finalised, could that something be the arrival of Monoliths and Doom Scythes of Trazyns force???. He is one of the only 2 traitor primarchs that we're unsure of their fate (the other being Alpharius.... I don't beleive the Gulliman story, seems stupid for a primarch that has been oft remarked as a tactical genius)


Highly unlikely. While the exact moment of the assassination was not seen, it was revealed in the novel of Lord of the Night and in the Night Lords Trilogy that M'Shen fled with Cruze's head as proof of his death. Beyond that Cruze not only accepted but _welcomed_ his death as proof of his belief that he and his Legion were always destined to play the role they did in the Imperium, that Emperor intentionally created them to be villains and monsters to scare and punish dissidents and insurgents. Cruze summed it up best in his own last words:



> "Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your False Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication."


Cruze is dead simply because he wanted to die. For Trazyn-led Necron force to have suddenly and disrupt it would directly contradict two Black Library novels that illustrate Cruze's death and the immediate aftermath.


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## Chompy Bits

Maybe it's Ploss... :crazy:


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## Lux

I second the notion that it is Curze in his last moments prior to death


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## CPT Killjoy

As Akatsuki said, Cruze is dead. Just like Dorn is dead. It's not that we want them to be dead, it's that they are. It says as much in "Lord of Night" (Regarding Cruze). And again, in agreement with Akatsuki, Cruze is only dead because he wanted to be, and says so just before allowing the assassin to kill him: 

"Death is nothing compared to Vindication" -Cruze


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## Lux

CPT Killjoy said:


> As Akatsuki said, Cruze is dead. Just like Dorn is dead. It's not that we want them to be dead, it's that they are. It says as much in "Lord of Night" (Regarding Cruze). And again, in agreement with Akatsuki, Cruze is only dead because he wanted to be, and says so just before allowing the assassin to kill him:
> 
> "Death is nothing compared to Vindication" -Cruze


No primarch is confirmed dead, Games workshop has left the door open for every single primarch to return.

Curze is only stated to be dead from the point of the Nightlord operative who was watching the assassination. It was purely his perception on it, I for one see it as being a lie purposely spread by Curze's command, or an illusion put forth by Curze.

Dorn is not confirmed dead, they only found his hands, in another account they found his skeleton of which the point is conflicting reports allow the readers to choose what they want to believe.


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## Akatsuki13

So you're saying that Horus, who's soul was utterly obliterated by the Emperor and his body later incinerated by Abaddon could come back to life somehow if GW willed it?

And Dorn is dead, killed during a Black Crusade (not one of Abaddon but a Black Crusade none the less) and his body was recovered. His skeleton minus the hands were encased in amber and placed on display while the bones of his hands are held else where, each and every Chapter Master of the Imperial Fists inscribing their names upon the bones.

Whether or not M'Shen killed Cruze he escaped with his head so unless you can explain that away then I'd say he's definitely dead.


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## CPT Killjoy

I don't mean to crush dreams, and I understand what your saying. The 40K universe contains ghost, zombies, magic, dragons, and a whole host of other impossible things. I really do get that. But, if I find your skeleton, or see you die, there's a much better chance that you are dead then say.... if you simply left never to return (ie Vulkan, Khan, Corax). Nothing is impossible, but the argument is probability. So probably, it's not Cruze, as he is probably dead. For all we know, the figure is a clone of the emperor who was hunted on Mars by the void dragon, who was baited into being there by the clone, then trapt by the real emperor, and right when the clone was going to be eaten, trapt next to the dragon, a scream of terror on his face, Trazyn froze him for his collection, and used the webway to escape at the last second. Possible, sure. Likely, not so much.


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## Diatribe1974

Buttons said:


> My favourite ideas are
> 
> Constantin Valdor
> One of the first Grey Knights or Inquisitors
> An original techno-barbarian
> 
> They aren't quite as powerful as a Primarch (except for Valdor who IIRC defeated Horus in a sparring match) and are people that would likely be considered worthy of Trazyn's collection.
> 
> Also because it sounds lulzy
> 
> Robute Guilleman (the one on Ultramar is just Alpharius spying on the Ultramarines)
> 
> The God Emperor of Man (the one on Terra is fake)
> 
> Horus' Original Body (The Black Legion destroyed a fake)
> 
> Sanguinius (Dorn carried the Emperor back from Horus' ship, who brought Sanguinius back?)


It's not Sanguinius as his corpse is in stasis on Baal, forever preserved in death.


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## DeathJester921

Akatsuki13 said:


> So you're saying that Horus, who's soul was utterly obliterated by the Emperor and his body later incinerated by Abaddon could come back to life somehow if GW willed it?
> 
> And Dorn is dead, killed during a Black Crusade (not one of Abaddon but a Black Crusade none the less) and his body was recovered. His skeleton minus the hands were encased in amber and placed on display while the bones of his hands are held else where, each and every Chapter Master of the Imperial Fists inscribing their names upon the bones.
> 
> Whether or not M'Shen killed Cruze he escaped with his head so unless you can explain that away then I'd say he's definitely dead.


Plus Ferrus Manus's head was sliced off by Fulgrim. So Ferrus is most definately dead. Then theres Sanguinius. He was killed by Horus. Also there is Guilliman who was killed by Fulgrim. So yeah, theyre not coming back either. Not unless the Emperor comes back and somehow revives them. I don't see that happening anytime soon though


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## Jacobite

Lux said:


> No primarch is confirmed dead, Games workshop has left the door open for every single primarch to return.


Sorry to burst your bubble but no. Flat out no Lux. That is one of the falsest statements I have ever heard. The following Primarchs are confirmed as dead, gone, no longer alive. They cannot return.

*Horus:* The Emperor (or the Empress or Michael or whoever you seem to think the big Golden fellow currently sitting on the Golden Throne is this week) killed him, blasted his soul into oblivion. This is explicitly said on page 368 of The Horus Heresy, The Collected Visions. Would you like an exact quote? Also Page 243 of Realms of Chaos - Slaves to Darkness.

*Sanguinius:* Killed by Horus: This is stated on page 364 on The Horus Heresy, The Collected Visions. I can give you a word for word quote should you require it. 

*Ferrus Manus:* Beheaded by Fulgrim, their duel is described in Chapter 24 of "Fulgrim", the moment of his death is described on Page 394 and confirmed on Page 395 and then again without any room for doubt on Page 406 of Fulgrim.

Those 3 are dead. Fact. You can't say that they are simply somebody's perception of being dead. If he an't got no head, he dead.... oh and if it's explicitly stated that he's dead... guess what... he's still dead.

The following you can quibble over the details as I know you will. You can try and spin it any way you want but there is more evidence of the following being dead rather than alive.

*Night Haunter/Konrad Kruze
Rogal Dorn
Alpharuis/Omegeon (one of the two)*

The others are either missing, in status (may or may not be dead, healing etc) or Deamon Princes.


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## Akatsuki13

Actually Alpharius and Omegon may both still be alive as even the Ultramarines cannot say if it was either of them slain on that day (though they would not have known of Omegon to begin with) or if it was another deception by the Alpha Legion and its Primarchs. Hell it's entirely possible that agents of the Alpha Legion created the story and subtly inserted it into the histories of the Ultramarines after Guilliman was mortally wounded. So I would put them as the only Traitor Primarchs in the 'Fate Unknown' category.


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## Jacobite

Akatsuki13 said:


> Actually Alpharius and Omegon may both still be alive as even the Ultramarines cannot say if it was either of them slain on that day (though they would not have known of Omegon to begin with) or if it was another deception by the Alpha Legion and its Primarchs. Hell it's entirely possible that agents of the Alpha Legion created the story and subtly inserted it into the histories of the Ultramarines after Guilliman was mortally wounded. So I would put them as the only Traitor Primarchs in the 'Fate Unknown' category.


Not meaning to be a dick... but as I said we can debate the fates of those 3/4 till the cow comes home. I have the Alpha Legion IA in front of me and it says that Alpharuis was killed by Gulliman... but the way its written can lead to debate as to weather its true or not. Unlike Horus, Sanguinuis and Ferrus Manus.


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## Deadeye776

I also don't mean to be a dick, but it's also sourced that the Ultramarines left that battle not knowing what the hell happened or who they killed if anyone. The retaliation was something no one expected a legion that just lost its primarch to unleash which lead to the conclusion that it was either planned or the Primarch himself or his twin (which no one knew to exist outside the xenos cabal and maybe the Emperor). You may be correct or I might be, who knows which is exactly the point. Once again, the AL left the affair so in doubt as to the truth of it that only they have all the cards. Few legions can boast this ability.


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## Jacobite

Deadeye776 said:


> it's also sourced that the Ultramarines left that battle not knowing what the hell happened or who they killed if anyone.


Where does it say this? I haven't heard of this version of events, I'd be interested to it see it as it seems to clash with the IA.


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## Deadeye776

Index Astartes IV-" The Enemy Within - The Alpha Legion Space Marine Legion."

"Even though they had lost their Primarch, the Alpha Legion had soundly beaten the Ultramarines, who proceeded to bombard their foes' position from outer space. It should be noted, however, that Alpharius's death is still considered suspect even by the Ultramarines, and he may still be at large.2 On the other hand, it is possible that 'Alpharius' did indeed die and 'Omegon' took sole command of the Legion. It is also possible that it was 'Omegon' who was 'killed' by Guilliman after taking the place of 'Alpharius'. Whatever the truth, the Primarch of the Alpha Legion has not been seen since." Lexicanum. 

I know the Lexicanum isn't the most reliable but the had it sumed up pretty much so I quoted it. But yea, back to my point, even the Ultrasmurfs had doubts as to what had happened which is the point and aim of a spymaster like Alpharius. Gulliman knew this and thought that this might have been an elaborate scheme to bring about this whole event especially given the counterattack. Maybe it was Omegon getting revenge for his brother or vice viersa. Maybe it was body double as they were known to do alongw with other traitor primarch Horus. Long story short is that nothing is confirmed, like a good spy organization would want it.


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