# Lovecraftian elements in warhammer?



## koyukichan (Dec 25, 2009)

I was reading through the Blood Gorgons book last night at work and a brief snippet caught my eye. 
I forget on what page, but at the bottom of the page it mentions the squads that were going to land on the planet. Two of the squads were named Yuggoth and Hastur.
I was curious if there were any more such "easter eggs" in warhammer.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

There are many 'easter eggs' in all of GWs books and codexes - but not all of it lovecraftian.

Eg - that infamous necromancer in fantasy - Henrick Kemmler - very susspiciously close the Henrick Himmler. I think every other GW name is 'nicked' from somewhere else.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Yep matter of fact a noticeable amount of the necron fluff is lifted from H.P's writings. Old ones?


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

The main thing that makes me sick about Games Workshop is the way from day one they've plagiarised everybody else's work and called it their own. 
Yet you go near any of their IP and their legal team will skin you alive.
And it's not the plagiarism itself that bothers me, after all I want to play against the Aliens, I mean Genestealers in the film "Aliens", I mean the game Space Hulk.
It's the fact that they defend "their" IP with such extreme prejudice.

Two prime examples of them stealing image IP and not even bothering to dress it up any.
Firstly, the second edition Hive Tyrant which is so obviously the Queen from "Aliens".
Secondly, the more recent Dark Eldar Mandrakes. I think that's their name. White hair, bare chests... Anyway, Google up a picture of the "Morlocks" from the 1951 film "The Time Machine" and tell me they're not one and the same thing.

I'm not saying I don't have reservations about other issues, but this is the one guaranteed to get me going. The "its okay for is to steal it, but not you..." attitude.


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## koyukichan (Dec 25, 2009)

I was completely unaware that so many things were taken from other sources. Interesting.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

Sorry I wouldnt call it plagiarising at all, theyve taken a established image or idea and changed and twisted it into there own style, yes it shows similarities but its the same everywhere, ideas are always recycled and improved upon its natural, so no its not stealing at all.

Making a race look and called exactly the same would be stealing but there not.
And as far as i know theres only been one incident with GW and plagiarism and that was with Maliel (or however its spelt) and no further ones so far, so if they really was stealing then there'd be many lawsuits all the time as there not then there fine to keep doing it.

And of course there going to defend there IP when theyve put there own spin on it, when its something that can be considered totally different despite similarity's.

If you saw a particular style of art and wanted to copy that style and put your own twist on it, and it came out as something different wouldnt you want to defend even tho it started out as coping and shows some similarity's. Of course you would as its your own and no-one elses and its the same with GW.

Oh and GW wont be the only ones that do this either.


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## yshabash (Apr 11, 2010)

Maidel said:


> There are many 'easter eggs' in all of GWs books and codexes - but not all of it lovecraftian.
> 
> Eg - that infamous necromancer in fantasy - Henrick Kemmler - very susspiciously close the Henrick Himmler. I think every other GW name is 'nicked' from somewhere else.


take Marbo

Switch the r and the m. Sound Familiar?


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## farseer22 (May 23, 2011)

as for lovecraftian elements:

Ymgarl Genestealer -> Cthulhu?


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

Pssyche said:


> The main thing that makes me sick about Games Workshop is the way from day one they've plagiarised everybody else's work and called it their own.
> Yet you go near any of their IP and their legal team will skin you alive.
> And it's not the plagiarism itself that bothers me, after all I want to play against the Aliens, I mean Genestealers in the film "Aliens", I mean the game Space Hulk.
> It's the fact that they defend "their" IP with such extreme prejudice.
> ...


lol they dont copy as directly as you claim.
they parody in some cases, reference in others, and pay homage in most.

it happens everywhere, alot in games, a fair bit in movies, tv shows.
ever think what most sketches are in comedy sketch shows?

they dont directly copy names/likenesses (like chapterhouse) hence why gw dont get into legal trouble with other people.


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

Would you call Necrons a parody of Arnold Schwartzenegger's Terminator or a direct copy?


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## LazyG (Sep 15, 2008)

I think frankly al lot of their 'homage' is pretty cheap. The odd nod is fine but they just lift things wholesale.


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

Pssyche said:


> Would you call Necrons a parody of Arnold Schwartzenegger's Terminator or a direct copy?


i distant homage. the only similarity is the metal skeletal structure.
in no way are they direct copies. the skeletal forms dont even look similar any more.

the terminator's skeleton is almost exactly like a human skeleton, only metal. the necrons are far more stylised.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

the-ad-man said:


> i distant homage. the only similarity is the metal skeletal structure.
> in no way are they direct copies. the skeletal forms dont even look similar any more.
> 
> the terminator's skeleton is almost exactly like a human skeleton, only metal. the necrons are far more stylised.


We'll Be Back. That is all.


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## Maidel (Jun 28, 2009)

coke123 said:


> We'll Be Back. That is all.


Look, that bares no resemblance to any famous catchphrase....


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

coke123 said:


> We'll Be Back. That is all.


ok, i'l admit, i forgot that bit 

but i still stand by my point.

you condemn gw for using that phrase then you also condemn anything else that has refrenced anything in history.

you end up with very little that you accept.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

Yes you can tell the idea for Necrons came from the Terminator films but as with anything its been developed and changed to what games workshop wants.

I mean for one thing terminators are already programmed, Necrons were once living beings now living machines, no way is that a copy of Terminator, 
as i said it happens but GW has made it there own, with its own background and look, the only things that are now similar is the rule "we'll be back" and been metal skeletal mockery's of a humanoid shape.


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

Stealing from one is plagiarism.
Stealing from many is 'research'.

Or as one of my old uni lecturers once jokingly told me:
"Plagiarise, plagiarise, plagiarise - but in the end, call it 'research'."

To quote the late Dan O'Bannon (you've heard of him, he wrote ALIEN).
"I didn't steal from anyone.
I stole from EVERYone."

GW homaged their material from EVERYONE and changed it just a little (and a lot since then).


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

Maidel said:


> Look, that bares no resemblance to any famous catchphrase....


I bet the next Necron dex will have a special rule "Get to the Choppa!"

Or Flash will eat his _other_ foot. :so_happy:


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## Shandathe (May 2, 2010)

chromedog said:


> Or as one of my old uni lecturers once jokingly told me:
> "Plagiarise, plagiarise, plagiarise - but in the end, call it 'research'."


You had classes from Tom Lehrer? :grin:


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## Luisjoey (Dec 3, 2010)

Back to lovecraft topic...

Tyranids are the most lovecraftian thing in warhammer, the monsters, tentacles, and even some names remember you lovecraft work. 

Warhammer itself with monsters, aliens and outer dimension demons is very lovecraft, see the RPG game and is more a Cthulu adventure than a hack and slash, because you get insane from seen the monsters. 


About the GW complain, i do agree they make theirs what is popular and could make you upset. But Warhammer funny stuff is because is a logical BLEND of all pop culture stuff in a game with a big fluff. 

Eldars were a name developed by Tolkien to define the star people. if you say eldar in the fantasy setting cristopher tolkien sue you! if you say eldar in the future .... Gw does it! funny doesn´t it?


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

the-ad-man said:


> ok, i'l admit, i forgot that bit
> 
> but i still stand by my point.
> 
> ...


Nah, it doesn't bother me all that much (although Marbo really annoys me. I don't know why I maintain that double-standard). I just felt like being that token guy who points that out.



DeathKlokk said:


> I bet the next Necron dex will have a special rule "Get to the Choppa!"
> 
> Or Flash will eat his _other_ foot. :so_happy:


The next IG codex will have a reprogrammed Necron with the rules "Come with me if you want to live", "Hast la Vista, baby" and "He'll live".

Alright, I think we've sufficiently pounded that joke into the ground...


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

Shandathe said:


> You had classes from Tom Lehrer? :grin:


Not so lucky.
He was a big fan of the guy's material though - and my first exposure to him and and George Carlin.


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## TheGoblin (Jul 19, 2012)

I realise I'm practising the dread art of Threadomancy here but I noticed something in A Thousand Sons and didn't know where else to put it. Minor spoiler alert?

When Anen is moving all the books out of the Library and into the Pyramid of Photep he says...
"Ensure the Pnakotic manuscripts are kept seperate from the Prophecies!"

Just thought the reference to Pnakotic Manuscripts was pretty cool


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## daxxglax (Apr 24, 2010)

Most famous fantasy/sci-fi settings have a ton of shared elements.

Look at all the things Tolkien came up with being used in so many stories/setting (like Warhammer Fantasy) that it has become the norm. And _that_ was generated from all these myths and legends that Tolkien kinda collected into Middle Earth. 

Star Wars is famous for its slew of influences. Most of them derived from classic space operas and Flash Gordon serials (Opening title crawl? Flash Gordon. Cloud City? Flash Gordon. Carbon Freezing? Flash Gordon.). The Force was derived mainly from eastern religion/mythology, the lightsaber fights from Japanese samurai movies (as was Darth Vader's appearance). Then there's The Hidden Fortress a japanese movie told from the perspective of two lowly characters (like, say C-3PO and R2-D2) who ally with a rebellion-leading princess against an evil empire. The Mos Eisley cantina scene and Han's showdown with Greedo are reminiscent of classic Spaghetti Westerns. Luke finding his home burned and his family killed directly mirrors a scene from the western movie The Searchers. The AT-ATs were inspired by the Tripod from War of the Worlds. The titles of the movies (Attack of the Clones, Return of the Jedi, Revenge of the Sith) are throwbacks to B-movies. Han and Luke disguising themselves as soldiers is like the heroes in The Wizard of Oz disguising themselves as the witch's soldiers. The battle droids of Episode I were derived from the stop-motion skeletons in Jason and the Argonauts.

A lot of the 40K stuff is a futuristic carryover from Fantasy (which is- by and large- Tolkien). Even the parts that aren't still have roots elsewhere. The Adeptus Arbites are designed after Judge Dredd. The Tyranids are akin to the Xenomorphs in Ridley Scott's Alien series. The idea of the Warp/warp-travel is almost exactly like the film Event Horizon (complete with the crew members becoming possessed by otherworldly entities). The Tau are largely based on Japanese culture/mecha. And yes, there's some Lovecraft in there too, especially with the Chaos Gods, Tzeentch in particular, and the "Old Ones." 

Also keep in mind Blizzard's Starcraft/Warcraft universes, which bear uncanny similarities to 40K/Fantasy.

What I'm trying to say with all this is that in almost any work, especially one as broad as 40K, there will be "copies," influences, and homages. But what's important is how the setting/story interprets these elements.


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## Igni Ferroque (Dec 7, 2010)

I always think Ork's are similar to something outside the Warhammer Universe... but I can never quite put my finger on it... hmmm


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

Igni Ferroque said:


> I always think Ork's are similar to something outside the Warhammer Universe... but I can never quite put my finger on it... hmmm


Kobolds, obviously.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

yshabash said:


> take Marbo
> 
> Switch the r and the m. Sound Familiar?


This blew my f*cking mind.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

daxxglax said:


> Also keep in mind Blizzard's Starcraft/Warcraft universes, which bear uncanny similarities to 40K/Fantasy.


Wasn't Warcraft originally supposed to be a Warhammer Fantasy videogame adaption?


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## The Sturk (Feb 3, 2012)

Alsojames said:


> Wasn't Warcraft originally supposed to be a Warhammer Fantasy videogame adaption?


I believe it was. Same with Starcraft and 40K, hence the Terrans looking similar to Marines and the Zerg being near identical to Nids.


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## ARMYguy (Feb 8, 2012)

Although terran look nothing like space marines at all. Not even close. I would wager that terran looks and acts more like imperial guard than space marines. There is no equivalent of SM in starcraft, which is why i never understood people that claimed this. I also never understood the eldar = protoss. Not even close once again. Nids.... still not seeing it. Starship troopers which came before both is what got ripped off. They ripped the bugs hardcore for nids and many of the 40k things being directly lifted from starship trooper book. (btw good book, i recommend it)

I always laugh at fan boys that argue about who ripped who cause they both ripped starship troopers hardcore.


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## Igni Ferroque (Dec 7, 2010)

ARMYguy said:


> I always laugh at fan boys that argue about who ripped who cause they both ripped starship troopers hardcore.


So you effectively laugh at yourself? 

Coming up with something completely original that will sell in vast quantities is incredibly rare. Someone else is bound to have done it before.


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## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

There was a pretty extensive discussion about this previously, sparked by Chapterhouse studios add-on kits and GW's ensuing lawsuit. I pick out a number of GW's more obvious sources - but there are so many, many more.

So partially quoting myself:



Kreuger said:


> . . . One of the things that has made GW a great setting is the creative property they appropriated and synthesized from other peoples' original work. I'll list the more striking ones . . . . (but not the ones that are homages more than appropriations, Sly Marbo for instance - this would be more in the vein of fair use)
> 
> 
> Space Marines in powered armor - Starship troopers
> ...


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## King Gary (Aug 13, 2009)

Good point about Tolkien's estate agreeing to the LOTR game, I lol'd.

I always thought of the necrons simply as space Egyptians, and GW's efforts to continue the parallels between the races in 40k and fantasy. The whole Terminator thing really isn't that strong, maybe the models early on (walking cyborg robot things, how different are they going to look?) and that one rule which was obviously a joke title, classic bit of british humour not a rip off. It's been a while since I saw the films, but I'm pretty sure Skynet wasn't a super powerful ultimate god-like spiritual force, more sort of a computer that got pissed when the humans tried to turn it off.

Space vampires as the next 40k race?


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## Dicrel Seijin (Apr 2, 2011)

King Gary said:


> Space vampires as the next 40k race?


You mean Blood Angels? :biggrin:


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

daxxglax said:


> Most famous fantasy/sci-fi settings have a ton of shared elements.
> 
> Look at all the things Tolkien came up with being used in so many stories/setting (like Warhammer Fantasy) that it has become the norm. And _that_ was generated from all these myths and legends that Tolkien kinda collected into Middle Earth.
> 
> .


Not to mention the whole one ring idea that he stole from Wagner's Ring Cycle, 
Cant fault his efforts but i do wish people would stop using him as the originator of "fantasy", he was just the dude who wrote the stuff down and did it better than others and made a chunk of cash in the process.


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

6, 7, 8 and 9 are very diefinitely taken from Michael Moorcock's work.

I own every one of his works, being possibly the best Sci-Fi/Fantasy writer since Geiger and Lovecraft, and have read them more times than i can count.

The similarities are blatant at best and outright plagiarism at worst. I can sort of understand why/how they managed to do it, being so well written and very prominent in its time but they made little effort to distinguish their work from his.


As a side note: If anyone has never read any of Moorcock's work, get hold of a copy of Corum. It contains Chaos and the Chaos Gods in their original and unbastardised form.

Alice


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

SGMAlice said:


> 6, 7, 8 and 9 are very diefinitely taken from Michael Moorcocks work.
> 
> I own every one of his works, being possibly the best Sci-Fi/Fantasy writer since Geiger and Lovecraft, and have read them more times than i can count.
> 
> ...


I have a couple of Moorecock's books just haven't gotten around to reading them. 

I like that GW has borrowed so much from others, it always makes you appreciate where the material came form, like the nids and Startship Troopers. I favorite refence was the whole Apocolysps Now and Konrad Curze refereneces. 

One of my other favorites they do is take older mythologies, like the name Nurgle, was taken from Nergal a God from an older mythology that had the same purpose.


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## ARMYguy (Feb 8, 2012)

Igni Ferroque said:


> So you effectively laugh at yourself?
> 
> Coming up with something completely original that will sell in vast quantities is incredibly rare. Someone else is bound to have done it before.


No, i laugh at the warhammer fans that go on blizzard forums and rip everyone a new one saying how bliz ripped warhammer, not knowing that warhammer was ripped from starship troopers. As far as i know, starship troopers was not ripping off any content before it. If it has i d like to know, just to know.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

ARMYguy said:


> No, i laugh at the warhammer fans that go on blizzard forums and rip everyone a new one saying how bliz ripped warhammer, not knowing that warhammer was ripped from starship troopers. As far as i know, starship troopers was not ripping off any content before it. If it has i d like to know, just to know.


really ? you totally sure that 40k is based on starship troopers and that starship troopers is 100% original? something scifi published in 1959 about conscripted soldiers fighting an xeno force is totally original and wasnt borrowed from anything else before it?


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

bitsandkits said:


> really ? you totally sure that 40k is based on starship troopers and that starship troopers is 100% original? something scifi published in 1959 about conscripted soldiers fighting an xeno force is totally original and wasnt borrowed from anything else before it?


As much as i enjoy your sarcasm Bits, he did say that it was as far as he knew, not that it was completely original. 

@ArmyGuy: Yes the film was taken from a Novel written in 1959 by Robert A. Heinlein. You can read about it HERE if you fancy a look see.

Alice


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

This I didn't know about (from wiki)



> In 1976, Avalon Hill published Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers, a map-and-counter board wargame featuring a number of scenarios as written in the novel


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

SGMAlice said:


> As much as i enjoy your sarcasm Bits, he did say that it was as far as he knew, not that it was completely original.
> 
> @ArmyGuy: Yes the film was taken from a Novel written in 1959 by Robert A. Heinlein. You can read about it HERE if you fancy a look see.
> 
> Alice


Well Alice ,the fact is nobody had really heard of starship poopers till verhoven threw it up on to film, the books and comics were long dead by 1987, the basis for 40k was warhammer fantasy and was a bit of a spoof/joke at the time, yes marines have power armour which was mentioned in starship troopers book (and yet totally missed out of the movie go figure), but the likelyhood is that marine power armour was influneced by things from the 80s like lets say star wars ,battle star or even cybermen from doctor who. 
And to add to that Heinlein borrowed the idea of power armour and exo skeletons from earlier works in pulp like Amazing stories from the 30s.
And even then those writers havent really come up with the idea as such, men have fought battles since time began, someone at some point said im not happy getting rocks chucked at my head im gonna cover myself in something so it doesnt hurt as much, and armour was invented, as the rocks turned into spears and arrows they needed better armour, but that comes at a price which is weight, so armour got heavy, few millennia pass and we start producing steam powered stuff and electricity and someone says, we could build a suit of armour with its own power source and movement which would negate the weight and protect the user. Some Russian dude trys it out in the first part of last century and a writer slaps it in popular fiction.

but as per the first post, yes GW have borrowed pretty much anything and everything they can from many many many sources including lovecraft,robert e howard,tolkien,moorcock, myth,legend,movies,comics and some bloke in the pub. But they borrow in most cases the feel or the idea and alter it and mold it and manipulate it to fit the 40k universe and the underpinned fantasy element, thats something completely different to taking something someone has designed and copying it and producing your own version and then selling it for profit.


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## SGMAlice (Aug 13, 2010)

Indeed, i agree. In most cases one is taken from another which is then taken from something some did out of necessity. The mother of Invention. And, while GW have borrowed and changed, there are still things they have completely and brazenly used without even bothering to change them; several of Moorcock's creations are a prime example of that.

As for the book; It is sad that few people knew of it prior to its film incarnation. I have had the pleasure of reading it but once in my lifetime and have yet to obtain a copy for myself. I have shelves full of books and an even longer list of those which i have yet to acquire. It is a sad state of affairs that books are becoming less prevelant since the advent of television.

Alice


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