# Fluff-Supported Counts As



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I thought I'd set up a little Fluff derived argument regarding Counts As, I want anybody to give me an example of a force they think is better represented by using an Codex that differs from the one that is published for that force.

Example: World Eaters using *Codex: Blood Angels* instead of *Codex: Chaos Space Marines*

I will then counter, or in rare cases support, any argument you can present to me as to why you think that using a different Codex is actually fluffier than the 'original' Codex.

Note: We get so many arguments regarding this that I thought I might as well make a thread so we can get all those arguments that drag other threads off-topic into one place.

Extra Note: I don't care how many of you argue, I'll take you all on (hopefully with some aid from my fellow Fluff Lords if the response gets crazy).


sincerely,
Baron 'kicking arse' Spikey


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## the cabbage (Dec 29, 2006)

Is it your contention that individuals might seek to gain a gaming advantage by the use of a 'counts as' codex? Surely not ....

I too hope that hedgehogs feature in their forthcoming excretia.

:laugh:


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

the cabbage said:


> Is it your contention that individuals might seek to gain a gaming advantage by the use of a 'counts as' codex? Surely not ....
> 
> I too hope that hedgehogs feature in their forthcoming excretia.
> 
> :laugh:


I don't care if people want to bitch rape each other on the table top but just don't sully the fluff by lying about why you're using the goddamn Codex. :angry:

And yes I am arrogant/confident enough to think I can take on a healthy portion of Heresy's readership and win. :king:


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

OK, I'll assume this is in response to my comment about Raven Guard (considering your response in the BT thread)? I by no means claim to be a fluffmaster so I'm interested. Alright then.

Blood Angels counting as Raven Guard. Assault Marines as troops lends itself to the assault based armies we so often see the Raven Guard played as. The Raven Guard claim to 'strike with surgical precision'. Scattering deep strikes hardly seem precise. IIRC, Descent of Angels take care of that. This makes Vanguard Veterans viable, which is even fluffier for Raven Guard, and if you still don't think Vanguard are any good, then there is always count as Sanguard. As far as I can remember, Blood Angels have access to the vast majority of the Vanilla units, so there's no restriction there.

Essentially, the crux of my argument is that the Blood Angel Codex allows for superior Deep Striking and more effective jumper armies, which strikes me as an excellent representation of the Raven Guard.

I have another one- although the Deathwatch doesn't have a codex, Pedro Sternguard counting as Deathwatch. Perhaps with allied inquisitors.

I guess it's time for you to kick my arse then.


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

As for the Deathwatch one, if you take Pedro the Sternguard don't count as Troops, they just become scoring units (not the same thing), so that wouldn't really work, you'd still need ordinary Tactical Marines (or Scouts, if you prefer).


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

coke123 said:


> I have another one- although the Deathwatch doesn't have a codex, Pedro Sternguard counting as Deathwatch. Perhaps with allied inquisitors.


I think this works really well. But can apply to normal sternguard without the use of Pedro.

We have plenty of references to codex chapters being joined by the Ordo Xenos in an attempt to thwart invasion etc. 

Sternguard as Deathwatch is a fine cross over.

WH being used as Ordo Xenos is probably another one. The powers can be given different names and the items affect heretics and Xenos alike.


The only other one I can think of changing over... is Adeptus Arbites as Space Marine Scouts, in carpace armor, well trained, with shotguns. They have access to some gear but not everything. Power weapons as power mauls etc. The only thing they miss is the Rhino which has been standard Arbites transport since RT. The fact that Arbites had models containing Bolters adds to this. GL counting as HB etc for fluff purposes.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Cato Sicarius said:


> As for the Deathwatch one, if you take Pedro the Sternguard don't count as Troops, they just become scoring units (not the same thing), so that wouldn't really work, you'd still need ordinary Tactical Marines (or Scouts, if you prefer).


I am aware of this- although it does help that they can score. Scouts can be explained as forward reconnaissance teams, or as an inquisitorial component. Tactical Marines could be fresh inductees? Or maybe just use scouts. Seems like less of a stretch.

On another note- I'm starting to get the feeling that I'm remembering the Descent of Angels rule incorrectly (not exactly an expert on blood angels). I seem to remember a rule in the Blood Angel codex which prevents deep strike scatter?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Gonna break this bad boy down into 2 parts for easy consumption.



coke123 said:


> Blood Angels counting as Raven Guard. Assault Marines as troops lends itself to the assault based armies we so often see the Raven Guard played as. The Raven Guard claim to 'strike with surgical precision'. Scattering deep strikes hardly seem precise. IIRC, Descent of Angels take care of that. This makes Vanguard Veterans viable, which is even fluffier for Raven Guard, and if you still don't think Vanguard are any good, then there is always count as Sanguard. As far as I can remember, Blood Angels have access to the vast majority of the Vanilla units, so there's no restriction there.
> 
> Essentially, the crux of my argument is that the Blood Angel Codex allows for superior Deep Striking and more effective jumper armies, which strikes me as an excellent representation of the Raven Guard.


1. Raven Guard do use Assault Squads a lot BUT they don't have more than any other Codex Chapter.

2. Scouts are used at least as much, or more, than Assault Squads- the use of Scout Bikes with a Locator Beacon would be fluffier than Descent of Angels (which is only attributed to the BA because of their natural prospenity for flight and punishing training making the use of a Jump Pack into an art form, for the RG it's a form of travel- no ritual significance about it), RG Assault Squads respond to the intel their Scouts provide, homnig in on the younger brethren's positions.

3. Raven Guard have a severe dislike for what they see as the brutish tactics of the Blood Angels, they don't charge head long into battle- it's all about encirclement and shadowy tactics. They use their Assault Squads to react to weak points when they're on the battlefield, they don't send them plummeting from the sky into the ranks of the enemy.

4. Force wide Fleet and selective Infiltrate are far more true to the RG fluff than DoA, Furious Charge, Fearless and the various other bits and bobs provided by the BA Codex.
-4a. How could you rationalise the use of Furioso Dreadnoughts, Storm Ravens, Death Company, Sanguinary Guard/Priests?
With the possible exception of the Storm Raven (using a Locator Beacon naturally) none of them suit the RG at all.

That's my somewhat hasty rebuttal.



coke123 said:


> I have another one- although the Deathwatch doesn't have a codex, Pedro Sternguard counting as Deathwatch. Perhaps with allied inquisitors.
> 
> I guess it's time for you to kick my arse then.


This I see no problem with as Sternguard have many of the same rules as the WD Deathwatch anyway.


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

Alexious said:


> WH being used as Ordo Xenos is probably another one. The powers can be given different names and the items affect heretics and Xenos alike.


Wouldn't work fluff wise. Ordo Xenos and the Ecclesiarchy are two very different things (yes, the Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy are as well in exactly the same way, but the Sisters of Battle are the main troops in the Witch Hunters 'dex and the Sisters of Battle are in fact the Chamber Militant of the Ecclesiarchy).

Basically, it wouldn't work because what you're suggesting is essentially "sisters count as deathwatch." Correct? And of course that's like saying Blood Angels count as Grey Knights. They work completely differently, with completely different equipment, and in completely different places.

Also, having the items affect all Xenos is very much broken. That's why they didn't and never will release an Ordo Xenos Codex. It doesn't work. They have Deathwatch to fight with. Big deal. That's either going to have broken rules or is just ordinary Marines with an allied Inquisitor and some Stormtroopers.


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> 1. Raven Guard do use Assault Squads a lot BUT they don't have more than any other Codex Chapter.


If they use Assault squads more then surely they would be able to score? That's my main point about sending assault squads to troops, not the number, but the way they're used. With this point I'm essentially attempting to simulate what is achieved via Korvydae, without reliance on IA, which as we all know isn't universally accepted.



Baron Spikey said:


> 2. Scouts are used at least as much, or more, than Assault Squads- the use of Scout Bikes with a Locator Beacon would be fluffier than Descent of Angels (which is only attributed to the BA because of their natural prospenity for flight and punishing training making the use of a Jump Pack into an art form, for the RG it's a form of travel- no ritual significance about it), RG Assault Squads respond to the intel their Scouts provide, homnig in on the younger brethren's positions.


Fair enough, I give you this point. TBH I was a bit unsure about bringing up DoA.



Baron Spikey said:


> 3. Raven Guard have a severe dislike for what they see as the brutish tactics of the Blood Angels, they don't charge head long into battle- it's all about encirclement and shadowy tactics. They use their Assault Squads to react to weak points when they're on the battlefield, they don't send them plummeting from the sky into the ranks of the enemy.


I also understand this- but I have to point out that this is simply a question of how you use the codex. How the Raven Guard and Blood Angels use their Assault squads is kinda irrelevant- it's a matter of how you use them on the tabletop.



Baron Spikey said:


> 4. Force wide Fleet and selective Infiltrate are far more true to the RG fluff than DoA, Furious Charge, Fearless and the various other bits and bobs provided by the BA Codex.
> -4a. How could you rationalise the use of Furioso Dreadnoughts, Storm Ravens, Death Company, Sanguinary Guard/Priests?
> With the possible exception of the Storm Raven (using a Locator Beacon naturally) none of them suit the RG at all.


A single infiltrating unit doesn't seem that fluffy- it seems very stupid, which is about as un-Raven Guard as it gets, IMHO. If a bunch of assault squads could infiltrate, then I'd agree. Shrike's fluff does state that he works behind enemy lines, but it would never be a single squad. A single, stranded squad doesn't fit the intelligent tactical style that at least I have always associated with Raven Guard. I will grant that fleet makes sense, but just as much as FC. A speedy strike means little without potency, or something to that effect.

As for Furioso Dreadnoughts, Storm Ravens, Death Company and Sanguard- I don't explain them. If you truly care about fluff, don't use them. There are plenty of unfluffy units in the Vanilla codex, so it's to be expected that there will be unfluffy Blood Angel units as well. Although, now that I think of it, sanguard could be counted as jetpack command squads/honour guard, which cannot be taken in the vanilla codex.



Baron Spikey said:


> That's my somewhat hasty rebuttal.


I quake at the idea of a well-thought rebuttal. Good points.

Oh, and on the WH thing, I believe he was talking about taking WH allies in a SM army. This would give access to ISTs and inquisitors, whilst still allowing access to Sternguard to use as Deathwatch. Although, you'd still have to use Tacticals and Scouts, but you get the idea.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> I don't care if people want to bitch rape each other on the table top but just don't sully the fluff by lying about why you're using the goddamn Codex. :angry:
> 
> And yes I am arrogant/confident enough to think I can take on a healthy portion of Heresy's readership and win. :king:


Stop! Thief!

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=76995

Not only have you repeated my previously posted topic, but you stole my opinion as well! How dare you!


Anyway, I should probably clear up the fact that I'm posting that link as there are some cool opinions in it about this same topic, not to just be a d*ck ... although those of you who have started to get to know me here at Heresy might be a little suspicious lol.

In saying that, you have summed up my position perfectly, only not as far as I take it.

IMO all people who use 'counts as' codices, when their army has a codex of it's own are whiny competitive gamers.

Examples:

Chaos Marine Player - Our Codex sucks ... I know, that new powerful Blood Angels codex would make a perfect Night Lords army ... because ... uh ... I know, I'll pigeon hole them as being fast and that powerful codex is fast too. Yeah, that'll work.

The worst example I've seen being - Codex Space Wolves as representing Thousand Sons, that just isn't right (Shudder).

But I don't might people using Codex Space Marines to represent pre-Heresy Traitor Legions, as I consider that very fluffy if they don't max out too much on technology that wasn't readily available back then.

That's what I think anyway.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

coke123 said:


> Although, now that I think of it, sanguard could be counted as jetpack command squads/honour guard, which cannot be taken in the vanilla codex.


Or you could just take the Honour Guard from the BA codex, which actually has the option for Jump Packs (and while we're on the subject, why the HELL does the 'nilla one not have such an option?).

So to make a fluffy Raven Guard army from the BA codex you take some/all of the following:

HQ: Jump Pack Captain with Lightning Claws (Shrike), Reclusiarchs (Chaplains), Honour Guard, Librarians

Elites: Chaplains, Terminators, Techmarine, Sternguard

Troops: Tac squad, Assault Squad, Scouts

FA: Vanguard, Speeders, Bikes

Heavy Support: Storm Raven (fuck yes - how utterly bitching would a Raven Guard army with Forge World doors on a pair of these look?), Dreadnoughts, Predators, Devs et al.

Seems reasonable enough to me. You have infiltrating scouts (with beacons?), deep striking assault marines, a command squad for your captain shrike counts-as, and access to the Storm Raven, which seems very in keeping with the chapters tactics and flavour, especially if it deep strikes as well. As a bonus, some of your squads get Furious Charge including your Command Squad for sure (the Initiate Sang Priest is an Apothecary for the FnP, and the FC is due to them being Veterans/Shrikes inspiring leadership).

It would be nicer if they could all fleet/infiltrate, but I have a sneaking suspicion that would be extremely overpowered.


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## Flayed 0ne (Aug 29, 2010)

Night Lords "Count as" Blood Angels....with more substance than "Fast and Powerful"...(and some SPOILERS!)

...to me Fluff abounds...also counting ABD's Night Lords (minor Night Lords BL spoilers!)...i realize the Novels are prone to embelishing "Rules Fluff" in the spirit of moving the story along and all...but as inspiration for putting these two Legions together, its almost a cosmic connection...


~ Jump Pack Centric...Quick Assault and Extraction

~the use of "Fear" ie, Death Masks (Painted Skull Faceplates), Psychic Power : Fear of the Darkness

~Night Lords are not "True" Chaos...of all the Traitor Legions, they are the "Purest"...they split before the Heresy and so are likely to have kept thier "prefered" method of engaging the enemy instead of adopting "Chaos" tactics...Night Lords -always- work better alone, even when working with others (if that makes any sense)

~Night Lords are not as fractured as most "Chaos" Legions...in "Throne of Lies" the Night Lords gathering was emense...almost the entire Legion, acting as one...and included in its description units not used by Chaos

~in Soul Hunter...i do believe the Land Raider arived by Deep Strike :wink: (loved that part)

~Talos actually uses a Blood Angel's Sword - Aurum...the two Legions have fought before :smoke:

~NightLords get what they can, when they can...it would make sense that they might use Engines and Gear they directly pilfer from Loyalist Legions, and not bother to "spike" em all out

~Night Lords employ Tech Preists...at least two that we know of...to a Night Lord, the role of "Sanguinary Priest" might be filled by a Tech Priest...gathering gene-seed,providing extra suport...in The Core, thier Tech Priest not only did that, but even had a few future Dreadnought candidates "on ice"

~Night Lords use Dreadnoughts...who do not attack thier own


~Blood Angel Units can be renamed easily to fit a Night Lord setting...(for example) Sanguinary Guard = Terror Guard (death masks)....Mephiston, Lord of Death = Malvolen, Lord of Darkness...Sanguinary Priest = Tech Priest...etc etc

...indeed the BL Stories are an inspiration to me...but somehow...the BA Codex just fits the Night Lords "feel"...on all counts...and im not a whiney, competative gamer...i just love Night Lords...and want to play something other than "Chaos" without playing the same old, same old red painted Blood Angels Army...


:victory:


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Flayed 0ne said:


> Night Lords....
> 
> ...im currently converting a Night Lords Army to run with the Blood Angels Codex...
> 
> ...


Alot of what you have just said is nonesense. I've stated my opinions above in green.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

coke123 said:


> A single infiltrating unit doesn't seem that fluffy- it seems very stupid, which is about as un-Raven Guard as it gets, IMHO. If a bunch of assault squads could infiltrate, then I'd agree. Shrike's fluff does state that he works behind enemy lines, but it would never be a single squad. A single, stranded squad doesn't fit the intelligent tactical style that at least I have always associated with Raven Guard. I will grant that fleet makes sense, but just as much as FC. A speedy strike means little without potency, or something to that effect.


You appear to be forgetting the Scouts and Scout Bikes that I said the Raven Guard rely heavily on, both units have Infiltrate- seems quite fluffy to me, Shrike and his squad infiltrating alongside multiple Scout Squads/Scout Bikers and another Assault Squad (or maybe 2 if you accompany Shrike with a Veteran/Command Squad) deepstriking in from a different direction. Boom! Instant classic RG encirclement tactic.



coke123 said:


> As for Furioso Dreadnoughts, Storm Ravens, Death Company and Sanguard- I don't explain them. If you truly care about fluff, don't use them. There are plenty of unfluffy units in the Vanilla codex, so it's to be expected that there will be unfluffy Blood Angel units as well. Although, now that I think of it, sanguard could be counted as jetpack command squads/honour guard, which cannot be taken in the vanilla codex.


The Red Thirst/Black Rage rules, the chance for your units to become Berserkers runs counter to the philosophy and character of the Raven Guard Chapter as we know it.


Edit: I'll counter Flayed Ones statement(s) when I've had a nap, been up for about a day and a half so I need my sleep 

Already I can see a couple of points where can I stick my boot up his proverbial arse...see you in a bit.


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

Cato Sicarius said:


> Wouldn't work fluff wise. Ordo Xenos and the Ecclesiarchy are two very different things (yes, the Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy are as well in exactly the same way, but the Sisters of Battle are the main troops in the Witch Hunters 'dex and the Sisters of Battle are in fact the Chamber Militant of the Ecclesiarchy).
> 
> Your missing the point... NO. Sisters are not the main troops of the WH dex... their is this other part called storm troopers.
> 
> ...


Correct! thats how it works. And if you think a WH inqusitor with stormtroopers with Tactical marines in small squads with razorbacks, dreadnaughts, and an allied assassin are useless... I think you should think again or start playing more games. The storm troopers are the most overlooked resource in the WH codex... its not all about sisters. And the fact of the matter is, you can create an effective Ordo Xenos force with them.


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## Flayed 0ne (Aug 29, 2010)

yeah, dont bother Baron...rip my points to shreds, thats fine, thats part of the discussion...but the personal shit at the end there was uncalled for...im just trying to share my intrest and love for the fluff and put forth some effort other than "Fast and Powerful"...but you got me all figured out huh?...piss off...


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Ravenwing could make an interesting Raven Guard force. Lots of Bikes with Locator Beacons, Land Speeders for quick heavy-ish support, Deep Striking Terminators and Assault Squads.
Loganwing might make for an interesting World Eaters-esque Terminator force; mainly because of the individualism of each model, and because of the brutality such a force could bring. Plus, you could have some Lone wolves to represent some of the more single-minded and accomplished Skull Champions.
Tyranids might work for an AdMech force. Mainly because of the biomorphs. I could also see the insect-like look being an interesting match for some of the more extreme Skitarii.
Dark Eldar could, possibly, be twisted to make a Slaaneshi cult, either Daemonic or mortal. I actually like the idea of it being the 'Court of the Dark Prince'; a Wytch Cult might fix this theme better, possibly with Hellions (the sensation of high speed on a flimsy Skyboard must be incredibly intoxicating), possibly Reavers. Maybe Scourges because of the body mods? You could maybe include Haemonculi, but they might be more Nurgle-y, although, again, the body mods + pain thing could see them qualify.
The Chaos Codex might be used, if you ignore the Marks and obviously Chaos-y units, as a Pre-Heresy Astartes book. You get the larger squads, more free-form weapons and the Astartes seem to be more brutal- possibly representing them before the psycho-conditioning was amped up after the Heresy was over. In saying that, Obliterators might be Robot Maniples, and Possessed might be Raven Guard 'weregeld'.
Just some ideas off the top of my head; hope I've got the idea!

GFP


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

D-A-C said:


> IMO all people who use 'counts as' codices, when their army has a codex of it's own are whiny competitive gamers.


To me it seems that a whiny competitive gamer wouldn't give a shit about what chapter they used. People just want to use their favourite chapter without having their arses handed to them.



D-A-C said:


> Chaos Marine Player - Our Codex sucks ... I know, that new powerful Blood Angels codex would make a perfect Night Lords army ... because ... uh ... I know, I'll pigeon hole them as being fast and that powerful codex is fast too. Yeah, that'll work.


That strikes me as perfectly reasonable.



D-A-C said:


> The worst example I've seen being - Codex Space Wolves as representing Thousand Sons, that just isn't right (Shudder).


Lolwhat? That's too far.



D-A-C said:


> But I don't might people using Codex Space Marines to represent pre-Heresy Traitor Legions, as I consider that very fluffy if they don't max out too much on technology that wasn't readily available back then.
> 
> That's what I think anyway.


That's reasonable. They were after all Loyalists at that point. In fact that makes more sense than using the CSM codex.



Sethis said:


> Or you could just take the Honour Guard from the BA codex, which actually has the option for Jump Packs (and while we're on the subject, why the HELL does the 'nilla one not have such an option?).


In that case, discount my comments on saguinary guard. Don't really know much about BA. Only that they'd make an excellent count as Raven Guard. and don't get me started on no vanilla jump pack honour guard.



Sethis said:


> So to make a fluffy Raven Guard army from the BA codex you take some/all of the following:
> 
> HQ: Jump Pack Captain with Lightning Claws (Shrike), Reclusiarchs (Chaplains), Honour Guard, Librarians
> 
> ...


I agree for the most part, except for the sake of keeping it fluffy, I'd steer away from Terminators. To me they just don't fit in with Raven Guard. and you forgot a shitton of drop pods



Sethis said:


> Heavy Support: Storm Raven (fuck yes - how utterly bitching would a Raven Guard army with Forge World doors on a pair of these look?), Dreadnoughts, Predators, Devs et al.


That would be so awesome. I don't know about Predators, Raven Guard are meant to be all about speedy ninja infantry. Some battle tanks just don't seem to fit into that equation. Also, as awesome as RG Storm Ravens would be, and quite probably fit their tactics, I think that's probably pushing it a bit far. Storm Ravens are meant to only be available to Blood Angels and Grey Knights (although I doubt that will last).



Sethis said:


> Seems reasonable enough to me. You have infiltrating scouts (with beacons?), deep striking assault marines, a command squad for your captain shrike counts-as, and access to the Storm Raven, which seems very in keeping with the chapters tactics and flavour, especially if it deep strikes as well. As a bonus, some of your squads get Furious Charge including your Command Squad for sure (the Initiate Sang Priest is an Apothecary for the FnP, and the FC is due to them being Veterans/Shrikes inspiring leadership).


Again, I mostly agree. Anything I do disagree with has already been mentioned (Storm Raven), so I shan't repeat myself.



Sethis said:


> It would be nicer if they could all fleet/infiltrate, but I have a sneaking suspicion that would be extremely overpowered.


Sethis, we would see nothing but Raven Guard if that were the case.



Flayed 0ne said:


> Night Lords "Count as" Blood Angels....with more substance than "Fast and Powerful"...(and some SPOILERS!)
> 
> ...to me Fluff abounds...also counting ABD's Night Lords (minor Night Lords BL spoilers!)...i realize the Novels are prone to embelishing "Rules Fluff" in the spirit of moving the story along and all...but as inspiration for putting these two Legions together, its almost a cosmic connection...
> 
> ...


I think that's a good explanation, although I think that the Sanguinary Priest explanation could use some work. He would have to be some form of medic- Perhaps some form of "Terror Priest" allowing the Night Lords to regenerate from their opponent's fear? Perhaps a little too close to PFP... or you could just not use them.

EDIT: Got uber ninja'd so I'll just continue



Baron Spikey said:


> You appear to be forgetting the Scouts and Scout Bikes that I said the Raven Guard rely heavily on, both units have Infiltrate- seems quite fluffy to me, Shrike and his squad infiltrating alongside multiple Scout Squads/Scout Bikers and another Assault Squad (or maybe 2 if you accompany Shrike with a Veteran/Command Squad) deepstriking in from a different direction. Boom! Instant classic RG encirclement tactic.


What? how are you getting another Assault squad infiltrating? Shrike only gives infiltrate to the squad he joins. So that's one assault squad infiltrating with Shrike. Or Vanguard Vets if you really feel like wasting points. Alongside a couple of scout squads. Unfortunately the scout squads aren't a particularly big threat, being mediocre at most things apart from basically getting into position.



Baron Spikey said:


> The Red Thirst/Black Rage rules, the chance for your units to become Berserkers runs counter to the philosophy and character of the Raven Guard Chapter as we know it.


Good point- here's an idea. It'll probably be shot down, as I admit it is a bit of a stretch, but IIRC Corax experimented with cloned Space Marines, which turned out to be little more than slavering monsters? These 'Beserkers' could easily be these guys.


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## Cato Sicarius (Feb 21, 2008)

Alexious said:


> Correct! thats how it works. And if you think a WH inqusitor with stormtroopers with Tactical marines in small squads with razorbacks, dreadnaughts, and an allied assassin are useless... I think you should think again or start playing more games. The storm troopers are the most overlooked resource in the WH codex... its not all about sisters. And the fact of the matter is, you can create an effective Ordo Xenos force with them.


1) Yes, there are Stormtroopers, but if you wanted the Stormtroopers why specify Witch Hunters? Why not Daemonhunters? That's why Sisters of Battle are the "main troops" in the 'dex, and why Grey Knights are the "main troops" in the Daemonhunters codex (at least, that's how most see it, like Tactical Marines and Scouts, Orks and Gretchin, Dire Avengers and Guardians).

2) Small teams getting the job done is not how ordinary games work. Sounds epic, but doesn't work unless you mean like, Movie Marines. But they had really revamped rules to make it so that it was still fair (sort of). How else are 10 Marines going to take on half a company of Marines, or a rampaging Ork warband? In fluff terms, 10 Marines maybe could do it. In game terms: no, I'm sorry, just no. Taking on 1500 points with 250 max is just ridiculously stupid. Go play Kill Team in Battle Missions.

3) Yes, I realise that is useful, but then why would you bother with the Ordo Xenos aspect of it? It would be literally no different except for you saying "oh well, they're Ordo Xenos," even though they bear no differences from an ordinary list of Inquisitor and Stormtroopers allied with Space Marines. And once again, you could use the Daemonhunter 'dex. It would give you pretty much the same play.

Basically your argument has just made the use of the Witch Hunter's codex an irrelevant matter, thus pretty much making the whole idea take itself apart.

EDIT: As an added side note, your third bit about having "a WH inqusitor with stormtroopers with Tactical marines in small squads with razorbacks, dreadnaughts, and an allied assassin" goes against your second bit about a "small team getting the job done," and pushes my counterargument that small teams don't work in ordinary games.

Additionally, I am working here on the assumption that you're using the Inquisitors and Inquisitor Lords in a way that corresponds to the Ordo Xenos background? That is, they don't get to use anything unique to the Witch Hunters codex or unique to the Daemonhunters codex (that would be a Witch Hunter or a Daemonhunter Inquisitor, respectively). To put it another way, the Inquisitor only gets what the two codices share in the armouries; this is to represent the assumption that these items are shared by all three Ordos in a similar way. Otherwise, you're using the Witch Hunters codex not for fluff purposes (which would be missing the point of the thread) but rather for rules purposes and then, as in my third point, claiming that it's Ordo Xenos when in fact it's nothing more than Witch Hunters with allied Space Marines.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

OK, I will step up to bat for Thousand Sons being better represented by Necrons, as it gives emotionless armies of souls trapped in several different types of metal bodies

WBB better represents the Rubric Marines not actually being killed but rather suffering damage until the binding is weakened enough to need a Sorcerer to rebind them.

Destroyers give the army the possibility of Rubric Terminators.

Psychic powers and guns are just fluff labels on a series of dice rolls so sorcery can be represented by any codex's weapons options.

Also Phase out better represents the Thousand Son Sorcerer Lord's mysterious goals for the battle.

The Deceiver's powers are more Tzeentchian than a DP with wings.

The Monolith makes a good Daemon Engine with Sorcerous Portal.

And my favourite reason: no-one will start their critique of the army with you need to replace X with Obliterators.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Flayed 0ne said:


> yeah, dont bother Baron...rip my points to shreds, thats fine, thats part of the discussion...but the personal shit at the end there was uncalled for...im just trying to share my intrest and love for the fluff and put forth some effort other than "Fast and Powerful"...but you got me all figured out huh?...piss off...


Wow, relax. 

Maybe your joking too, but IMO Baron wasn't 'personally' attacking you.

All myself (and perhaps Baron) are suggesting is that are you trying to make a fluffy Night Lord's list OR are you trying to fit the Night Lords fluff around a very competitive codex?

My opinion on the matter is simple:

You can do anything you want, it's your hobby too and I nor anyone else can stop you playing it as you wish.

However, you nor anyone else should pretend to be more concerned about fluff, in order disguise the fact that you want a competitive army, based on your chosen theme.

Basically a Wolf in Sheeps clothing type deal.

But no-one is 'personally' attacking 'you'.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Well, Blood Angels have no more Assault Squads than normal Marines.

As to "Counts as", well, they've painted their army, so why not use it how they want? I wouldn't have an issue if someone turned up with a force painted like Starsky and Hutch with a Gran Torino as their transport using Tau as the basis, I'd (be impressed) be as happy to play them as against an actual Tau army.

If people feel the need to lie, well, so? It doesn't matter if you get beaten by Blood Angels painted as Blood Angels, or Blood Angels painted as Night Lords.

Sanguinary Guard could be the Chosen Jump Pack Bodyguards of a Night Lord Commander who's so terrifying he uses the rules for Dante, with a Daemon Pistol. Sanguinary Priests could be one of the few possessed providing a conduit to the Warp which decreases the damage of all weaponry.

Fast Rhino Hulled Transports - anyone can supercharge them, and a Daemonically Possessed Rhino could easily do that.

RAS without Jump Packs are dedicated CC units, Tac Marines less so, Scouts are Cultists or Renegade Guard blessed by Chaos, Furios/Death Co Dreadnoughts are your Crazed Chaos Dreadnoughts...

In short, yes it'd be nice to play against someone who said yeah I chose BA for my NL because I thought the current CSM dex tongued a tight little brown one, but not everyone will. But if someone's gone to the trouble of spending £20 nearly on a book, and £200-300 on an army and paints etc, then they have the right to play whichever army book they like.


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## Flayed 0ne (Aug 29, 2010)

jeez...wtf is up with the "competative" paranoia?...why would i lie about some bullshit like that? lol...frankly, i suck at playing warhammer right now....ive only begun really playing in the last year or so....i have ALOT to learn about the game itself...much less "which army can i win a tournament with"...im a loooooong way off from any kind of tournament play...even if i had a bad ass set up with win written all over it...theres probly a greater than 50% chance id fuck it up anyway right now...trust me, getting a win right now is hard enough no matter what army i play...and before you say "see, that proves it!"...

....as it happens...i "play" fluffy...alot of my losses are due to that fact...my chaos marines i play with no Obliterators, cause they are not fluff, ive even proxied a few to test, did better than i ussualy do, and still am trying to find something to use besides them...i have a small daemon army...Khorne only...because Chaos Gods "working together" doesnt feel that fluffy either...i got into this hobby because the fluff is so encompassing and relavant that it has a place even in the way you arm your miniatures...i love fluff...and let it be known right here and now!!...Flayed 0ne would rather play a fluffy army than a competative one!

:ireful2:

...now all THAT being said....im not the kind of chump to take alittle shit talking too seriously, but i am the sort of chump thats gonna say something if you insinuate something about me thats wrong...i will stand up for myself, thats just the way i am...but im good natured enough not to hold a grudge...

peace Baron...not everyone is out to get you with thier spooky competative lists!!....some people DO like this hobby for reasons other than "winning games"...thats why i posted in this friggen thread to begin with!

:drinks:


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## normtheunsavoury (Mar 20, 2008)

I agree with Vaz, what's wrong with playing Counts As?
The Blood Angel Dex might not be a perfect fit for the Night Lords but it's a damn sight better than the current C:CSM. 
Obviously, in pure fluff terms, the Dex is all wrong, dante is not a Night Lord and the NL don't have Sanguinary Guard or Death Company, but thats the whole point of 'Counts As'.
You look at the army you like and then try and find the best fit rules wise to represent it, if GW hadn't arsed up the CSM dex then half of this wouldn't be an issue. 
Using counts as lists adds more depth to the game, both in play and in terms of fluff.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

..."I'm not even going to bother" crossed my mind, but bother I shall.

First, indisputably - Iron Hands. All but ignored in the Nilla Dex, they are MUCH better represented by the ability to have the Morlocks via WG in TDA. What's that? Bolt Pistol, Bolter and CCW? Well, I see no reason why they would have abandoned their Pre-Heresy armaments, actually. ThunderWolves? Invent something. Or, don't use them. Whatever.

Secondly - What's the point if you don't cite sources Baron? While I have no allusions about your knowledge of the fluff, you CAN be wrong, and you _could_ lie if you chose, without sources.

Third - All this "Raven Guard use lots of Scouts hurrdurr!!!111!" really pisses me off. Yes, they use a lot of Scouts on missions...that doesn't mean that's their main fighting force, or that that's their only way to fight. In addition, since Companies often act independently, it makes more sense to include NO Scouts than to include a unit or two! It is as likely that the Scout Company is engaged on a different front, or even in a different Sector. Even at that - Vaz raises the perfectly valid assertion that the BA have no more Assault Troops than standard (a stupid piece of contradictory fluff, but there you go) and yet entire armies of BA are usually comprised of Assault Marines. Since the RG use fast-response units, this makes sense. As regards Scout Bikers, an Auspex has no difficulty picking up Bikes whereas horses are more stealthy, which is apparently part of why Rough Riders exist. So, convert your Scout bikes to horses, if you wish to be fluffier. :/

Fourth - Night Lords DO have more Jump Packs, as they INVENTED Raptors, and didn't throw their troops away at the Siege of the Emperor's Palace the way the other Legions (excepting EC) did. Night Lords are masters of dropping a sledgehammer where a needle would suffice - what represents this better than a half-company or more of Jump Troops? Or descending Land Raiders into the heart of the battle?
Fear of the Darkness SCREAMS Night Lords, as does Shield of Sanguinius' - precognitive abilities to avoid harm anyone?

Fifth - Raven Guard Death Company - Corax blah blah clones blah blah went wrong - "I've created a monster!" blah permanently damaged geneseed blah blah.

Sixth - no-one would criticise an Angels of Redemption army with Azrael, a Sons of Orar with Calgar, a Knights of Blood with Dante. If it's fine for Successors listed in the book, why the hell not for others?

Seven - Blood Angels get Scouts as Troops anyway. All they lose on SM is Combat Tactics and Telion.

Eighth - Red Thirst can simply represent the need for the mission to be completed before the enemy can respond in force. Key to guerilla warfare is the ability to get the job done and fuck off before you get your bitch ass kicked by superior numbers/weapons/both. Marines can achieve more when they're focused better on haste...and they wouldn't be the first Marines to lose it a little and not know their own strength when in a hurry...*cough* Davin *cough*

Finally - (for now) - The fluff is a scarf to keep you warm and comfy, while looking stylish...not a noose around the necks of players. No-one ever has the right to dictate to another player what is and isn't fluffy, only what falls within the confines of established fluff. Most of us prefer to deal in absolutes in life, great...but GW deliberately hasn't created their universe that way. It's a huge sandbox...somewhere, maybe there IS a female Marine Chapter. Maybe some Orks really do have Grav Tanks. Maybe there are even Squats somewhere who stick to the old traditions and heritage. And maybe a cruiser full of Heresy-era *insert Legion of choice* really did get lost in the Warp and are good guys who helped out on Bellicas against the Necrons and were secretly taking the Emperor's Swords' equipment to supplement/replace their own and stole armour so that people didn't mistake their heraldry for the enemy.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

coke123 said:


> I agree for the most part, except for the sake of keeping it fluffy, I'd steer away from Terminators. To me they just don't fit in with Raven Guard. and you forgot a shitton of drop pods
> ...
> That would be so awesome. I don't know about Predators, Raven Guard are meant to be all about speedy ninja infantry. Some battle tanks just don't seem to fit into that equation. Also, as awesome as RG Storm Ravens would be, and quite probably fit their tactics, I think that's probably pushing it a bit far. Storm Ravens are meant to only be available to Blood Angels and Grey Knights (although I doubt that will last).


While maybe not taken "as standard" Raven Guard do still have a First Company, and suits of Termie armour. I can see a small teleporting termie squad adding punch to a sneak attack easily, or turning a feint into a real push, or reinforcing a buckling unit of Scouts.

I didn't mention Dedicated transports, because I didn't see a problem with any of them. Ofc they will have pods and Rhinos and similar.

Predators (according to their description) are supposed to be used as Armoured Cavalry, a fast moving spear tip to tear out an enemy's throat (to quote Loken[?]) and the BA rules represent that much better by making them Fast and therefore able to fire on the move.

Storm Ravens are only temporarily limited to two chapters, there is no way that GW is going to restrict that model to just BA and DH. It will be retconned for everyone else as well, I have no doubt.



coke123 said:


> Good point- here's an idea. It'll probably be shot down, as I admit it is a bit of a stretch, but IIRC Corax experimented with cloned Space Marines, which turned out to be little more than slavering monsters? These 'Beserkers' could easily be these guys.


I forgot about slavering mutants actually, so gogo Raven Guard Death Company (although your opponent might cry cheese at that point, so I might not do it myself).



> The fluff is a scarf to keep you warm and comfy, while looking stylish...not a noose around the necks of players. No-one ever has the right to dictate to another player what is and isn't fluffy, only what falls within the confines of established fluff.


/applaud k:


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

TheKingElessar said:


> Finally - (for now) - The fluff is a scarf to keep you warm and comfy, while looking stylish...not a noose around the necks of players. No-one ever has the right to dictate to another player what is and isn't fluffy, only what falls within the confines of established fluff. Most of us prefer to deal in absolutes in life, great...but GW deliberately hasn't created their universe that way. It's a huge sandbox...somewhere, maybe there IS a female Marine Chapter. Maybe some Orks really do have Grav Tanks. Maybe there are even Squats somewhere who stick to the old traditions and heritage. And maybe a cruiser full of Heresy-era *insert Legion of choice* really did get lost in the Warp and are good guys who helped out on Bellicas against the Necrons and were secretly taking the Emperor's Swords' equipment to supplement/replace their own and stole armour so that people didn't mistake their heraldry for the enemy.


:goodpost: Have some rep.


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## Scathainn (Feb 21, 2010)

Except the Raven Guard death company idea doesn't work because Corax himself personally slew all the Weregeld.


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## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

How about use the Dark Angels codex for the Raven Guard and use Sammael(mounted in his speeder) as the main captain and use loads of bikers and teleport your Terminators where you want them to smash the enemy to pieces before zipping away and attacking the next exposed target and repeating until the enemy is dead.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Scathainn said:


> Except the Raven Guard death company idea doesn't work because Corax himself personally slew all the Weregeld.


All? Are you certain? :laugh:

You could then just have your army as "Mid-Heresy" era, where they were in use?


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## Angelus Censura (Oct 11, 2010)

Should I not have Daemonhunters be a counts-as Death Co squad in my Homebrewn BA successor chapter then?

(Daemonhunters and Ad Mech will be attatched to the Chapter, look for Ordo Immortalis in the Homebrewn Fluff section, its all explained.)


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Dave T Hobbit said:


> OK, I will step up to bat for Thousand Sons being better represented by Necrons, as it gives emotionless armies of souls trapped in several different types of metal bodies
> 
> So far makes sense.
> 
> ...


Well, it`s not the worst idea, but from a gaming viewpoint I think you`re better off with the actual TS! Necrons are not exactly a forgiving force, no matter what you pretend they are! :laugh:



TheKingElessar said:


> Secondly - What's the point if you don't cite sources Baron? While I have no allusions about your knowledge of the fluff, you CAN be wrong, and you _could_ lie if you chose, without sources.


Except he`s not. And he`s called on other fluff lords to help, who would know (along with plenty of others) if he was lying or wrong. I`m sorry, nothing persopnal at you Elessar, but you lost a lot of credibility when you made this accusation at someone who has made no secret of how important the fluff is to him. 

Which is a shame, because a lot of what you said made sense, and I happen to agree with everything else. Fluff is for us to interpret, but the primary rule of the game is to have fun.

If I come across an opponent who plays the BA dex with his DA (and I have) it takes a bit away from the game for me. I asked him why, and he said "the list is better."

I was still playing my beloved necrons, so what was his fucking excuse?

_Waaah! My dick`s gonna fall off if I ever lose a game!_

Goddamnit, people, if you don`t like your armies, then why the fuck do you even play? If your list is no good, why don`t you just get better at it? :rtfm:


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Well, it`s not the worst idea, but from a gaming viewpoint I think you`re better off with the actual TS! Necrons are not exactly a forgiving force, no matter what you pretend they are! :laugh:


Drat: clean bowled!

I will admit to mainly seeking to come up with a "counts as" that was no no way an attempt to gain an advantage form the rules; given your comment I might actually be able to come up with a more applicable mapping between the Codicies, although I do not mind C:CSM 3.1 so will probably not get round to it.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> If I come across an opponent who plays the BA dex with his DA (and I have) it takes a bit away from the game for me. I asked him why, and he said "the list is better."
> 
> I was still playing my beloved necrons, so what was his fucking excuse?
> 
> ...


Well said!!!

That's exactly my point as well.

If you enjoy the fluff, you should be willing to sacrifice your win/loss ratio a little to have the satisfaction of playing your favourite army.

I personally love all things Chaos, that's why I play Chaos Daemons. 

Screw winning and losing.

Everytime I lose, I can imagine the carnage I left behind, or that the tear in the realspace just wasn't stable enough for my daemonic horde to sustain itself , or countless other reasons.

Everytime I win, I get the satisfaction of championing The Dark Gods on the tabletop with my Multi-God Daemonic Horde.

Winning isn't everything ... but if it is to some people, then why wrap their competitiveness in a fluffy bubble? 

Just suck it up and switch armies with the release of each and every new power codex and be done with it.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Uh, I *didn't* accuse him of lying - the opposite in fact. I just said that if he CHOSE to, he could, and almost certainly get away with it.

Regarding Rubric Marines - it has always been my understanding a breach in the armour causes the dust inside to whirl out of the space like some sort of mystical space typhoon - the armour would then collapse in on itself with the vacuum now created inside, rather than merely falling. 

YMMV, because that's what it's all about - Interpretations.

I think generally you will find people who switch to a stronger book with the same models do so because:

a) They could have no fun with an uncompetitive army, and it was that or buy a new army, or quit.
b) They love their army too much to just abandon it, and/or they love the fluff of their army too much to see it get smashed into paste every week in a totally non-representative fashion.

Either way, the 'winning' is unimportant, the important part is the POSSIBILITY of winning.

At it's most basic, it is wholly accurate to say a Necron army will not beat any 5e Codex used by an equally skilled player. MOST people wouldn't like to auto-lose every game...you may be the exception that proves the rule, but I doubt you wouldn't/don't play another army.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

On the TSons - Bill King states that the spirits inhabit the armour of the Rubric Marines, and they just plodded through. However, shooting them in the head would destroy the brain, or basically the physical puppet springs that the spirit would be able to manipulate said rubric. Don't forget that they use to be 2 wounds apiece in 3.5, so wounding them wouldn't make a blind bit of difference.

For my Space Marines army, I say exactly what they are. But fuck it, I'm not playing Apocalypse with a load of skittles - and I have 3 Baal Predators, 2 Mortis Dreadnoughts (although the Rifleman Dread is still actually legal), and I will be upgrading one of my Terminator Squads to Sword Brethren, and possibly also upgrading my other Predators to PotMS Black Templar ones. Why? Because the rules are awesome.

That means that I'll be finding ways to play my Space Marines as Crusader Squads or my Razorbacks as Fast Blood Angels RBacks.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

D-A-C said:


> If you enjoy the fluff, you should be willing to sacrifice your win/loss ratio a little to have the satisfaction of playing your favourite army.


There's a difference between "losing a bit more than normal" and "wriggling around on the ground covered in a fur coat making baby seal noises" which is what playing some of the older codicies basically amounts to.

Just because GW has decided for financial reasons to ignore your codex for years doesn't mean that you should just accept that your most beloved army is terrible and loses 90% of it's games. I'd ask why people don't just say "Screw it, I want to use my army in a competitive fashion and the release schedule for 40k isn't going to stop me" and use another codex to represent them.

If that means that Necron Destroyers have to be represented by Sorcerers on Discs of Tzeentch throwing lightning around, then so be it. And I would love to see it/play it, because that conversion sounds awesome.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

TheKingElessar said:


> Uh, I *didn't* accuse him of lying - the opposite in fact. I just said that if he CHOSE to, he could, and almost certainly get away with it.


Fair enough, but I refute you on saying the Baron could get away with lying if he wanted to. Even if I missed it, you have CotE and AoB lurking around, and Doelago`s pretty good on Imperial Fluff as well. I mean, the Baron`s great, but he is _not_ that good... Not always... 



TheKingElessar said:


> At it's most basic, it is wholly accurate to say a Necron army will not beat any 5e Codex used by an equally skilled player. MOST people wouldn't like to auto-lose every game...you may be the exception that proves the rule, but I doubt you wouldn't/don't play another army.


Three tournament level players I met would disagree at least. It`s not enough to simply be a good player, did you consider list composition, first turn order and most important of all, _the dice?_

Besides which, comparing one player`s skill level to another`s is sketchy at best. Also, just because BA are a more recent codex than necrons doesn`t make them any less fond of the good ol` Particle Whip. :biggrin:

I will also admit to playing multiple armies, but necrons are my usual tourney list simply because I am accustomed to the familiarity of the codex. 



Sethis said:


> There's a difference between "losing a bit more than normal" and "wriggling around on the ground covered in a fur coat making baby seal noises" which is what playing some of the older codicies basically amounts to.
> 
> Just because GW has decided for financial reasons to ignore your codex for years doesn't mean that you should just accept that your most beloved army is terrible and loses 90% of it's games. I'd ask why people don't just say "Screw it, I want to use my army in a competitive fashion and the release schedule for 40k isn't going to stop me" and use another codex to represent them.
> 
> If that means that Necron Destroyers have to be represented by Sorcerers on Discs of Tzeentch throwing lightning around, then so be it. And I would love to see it/play it, because that conversion sounds awesome.


Sounds fancy, but I typically find that hardcore competitive gamers are drawn to powered lists regardless of the army`s fluff. Such as aforementioned BA/DA player who bought DA when they got rereleased then switched his list to BA when they came out. I see the douchebag regularly at tourneys, have only played him this one time and did not enjoy the experience at all. My attempts at friendly banter were met with glares of _just roll your fucking dice._

I`m not accusing all competitive players of this, but this guy has tainted your reputation as far as I`m concerned. Sorry. :dunno:
Granted we all have differing opinions on the matter,


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

That's pretty fair - but jerks are going to be jerks whatever reason they profess to play the game for. As far as I'm concerned, if you don't like any of the fluff, then GW games really aren't what you should be putting your energy into. They're hardly watertight cut-throat games - and you can club baby seals cheaper in other games to, if that's actually what gets you off.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Mate, clubbing baby seals min a game can`t compare to doing it for real- 

I mean, good points. I guess I should just accept the jerks for who they are and annihilate their lists without fucking around. Seriously, there are few gaming experiences that can compare to destroying a 5E codex list with Necrons! :laugh:


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

Serpion5 said:


> Mate, clubbing baby seals min a game can`t compare to doing it for real-
> 
> I mean, good points. I guess I should just accept the jerks for who they are and annihilate their lists without fucking around. Seriously, there are few gaming experiences that can compare to destroying a 5E codex list with Necrons! :laugh:


Destroying a 5E codex with pure Grey Knights. One of the best tournament players at my local uses Daemonhunters, and it's freaking hilarious (and highly educational) to watch him play against pretty much anything.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

coke123 said:


> Destroying a 5E codex with pure Grey Knights. One of the best tournament players at my local uses Daemonhunters, and it's freaking hilarious (and highly educational) to watch him play against pretty much anything.


I feel like I`ve seen this list somewhere... Sydney, huh? Which club do you speak of? WSGS?


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## coke123 (Sep 4, 2010)

I'm not with a club. Just at the Sydney Battle Bunker. He could very well be from WSGS, but I wouldn't know.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Ah, ok. I rarely visit that one, my usual Visit is the GW at Castle Towers. But I have seen a Grey Knight List at several tourneys over the past couple of years.  

I have yet to face it myself though. :spiteful:


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