# Would the Imperium be different today had the Primarch's not all died/disappeared?



## Uber Ork (Aug 23, 2010)

Just as the title says. What do you think? If the Primarch's had not all died or disappeared, would they have/would they have been able to, keep the Imperium from becoming what it is today?


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## DanCoolins (Sep 10, 2011)

well, some of them tried, and its quiet possible they didnt want to survive. 
and they ran the risk of being seen almost to take over from the emperor which wouldnt have done much good. 

i think it would be different but possibly for the worse (and that would make things very grim indeed)


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Well things would definatly have been different. 
It depends on which Primarchs specificly, but having a soldier that survived for ten thousand years constantly warring on the battlefield would have by experiance alone made a massive impact on the imperium. Being arguably the strongest weapon the Imperium has ever owned. 
But if Ferrus Manus was still alive, how many technical advances could he have made? 
If Rogal Dorn was still alive, how many fortresses that fell could have stayed standing were he to design them? 
Simply having a warrior of the calibre of a primarch would have killed countless foes that would otherwise have been victorious. 

But it really is impossible to truly determine what would happen, would Angron and Russ have battled to the death? Would the inquisition eventually suspect the senile primarchs of being too old for the job or chaotic and relieved them of office? 
There are far far too many variables to truly determine what would happen.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Dan said:


> i think it would be different but possibly for the worse (and that would make things very grim indeed)


Basically this. The Imperium was already increasing rapidly in its religiousity. Having figures as powerful (and 'godly') as the Primarchs around would have caused that faith to gravitate around them. However the Primarchs themselves were all united to the cause of a secular society. What kind of effect could that have on your religion? I expect that many of the Primarchs that survived did not like the direction they saw the Imperium heading, with themselves at the head, and so took it apon themselves to leave (this is the only real reason I can think of for Vulkan leaving).


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> Basically this. The Imperium was already increasing rapidly in its religiousity. Having figures as powerful (and 'godly') as the Primarchs around would have caused that faith to gravitate around them. However the Primarchs themselves were all united to the cause of a secular society. What kind of effect could that have on your religion? I expect that many of the Primarchs that survived did not like the direction they saw the Imperium heading, with themselves at the head, and so took it apon themselves to leave (this is the only real reason I can think of for Vulkan leaving).


This. The Primarchs who willingly left, left for a reason.

But also, could they have even survived ten millennia of war? Dorn died shortly after the Scouring, as did Guilliman. Individuals being involved in near-constant warfare for upto ten thousand years would have near-inevitably been killed in that time period.

Were they even immortal for that matter? Different lore points in different directions in regards to that question.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Completely agree with Child of the Emperor. I don't care how powerful you are.Fighting in near death situations for that long is a mathmatical certainty your going to die eventually. I don't think the Emperor ever saw it coming to this so he didn't think they would be constantly fighting at this level. To be honest if you look at the Imperium today it's a lot more dangerous. With the addition of Chaos at the end of the Heresy you now have the Tyranids and the Necron and the C'tan. All of these threats are capable of killing a primarch so it was really just a matter of time.

I've always looked at the Imperium as the old Roman Empire. Could the Primarchs have stopped it from coming to what it is today? No, they might have slowed it down though. The span of the empire is too large for one being to effectively rule without the power of the Emperor. They could have stopped Angron and the first Armageddon conflict and the Reign of fire. The Tyranid threat came out of nowhere. The Necron/C'tan is probably the last bit the Emperor witheld from them. This problem has always been there. Add to these Chaos and the traitors and I see the Imperium still en route to this end, just at a slower pace.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> This. The Primarchs who willingly left, left for a reason.
> 
> But also, could they have even survived ten millennia of war? Dorn died shortly after the Scouring, as did Guilliman. Individuals being involved in near-constant warfare for upto ten thousand years would have near-inevitably been killed in that time period.
> 
> Were they even immortal for that matter? Different lore points in different directions in regards to that question.



Back in second edition (I think?) some of the Primarchs stuck around and died of old age around 1500 years post-heresy. Crazy stuff, huh?



Back on topic. I personally think if Guilli was still alive the Imperium would be a lot better. I'm sure there'd be pocket Ultramars all across the Imperium.


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## Nave Senrag (Jul 8, 2010)

hailene said:


> Back in second edition (I think?) some of the Primarchs stuck around and died of old age around 1500 years post-heresy. Crazy stuff, huh?
> 
> 
> 
> Back on topic. I personally think if Guilli was still alive the Imperium would be a lot better. I'm sure there'd be pocket Ultramars all across the Imperium.


Depends on your definition of better. Not all of us like the color blue. That is assuming he wasn't assassinated for posing a threat to the Lords of Terra, since he and his legion were viewed as the heirs to the Emperor, and that does wonders for one's ego.


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## Lubacca (Sep 4, 2011)

10k years worth of battle, strife and death would change the outlook of anyone. Make it someone who's already Superhuman and you're looking at the possibility of a psychotic break that the universe may not have survived. 

Add to that the fact that if two Primarchs were left standing and they had differing points of view on how to do things and the possibility of a civil war would have loomed large. Nevermind a civil war caused by choas but one caused by two people who want the same thing but want to use different methods to get there? That breaks the back of any people.

No the universe of WH40k is best left with what they have now. People are already reading things differently than they were.


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## General-jwj (Sep 22, 2011)

My opinion is that if they'd survived that long, their sanity would have suffered. I mean, none of them are even close to the Emperor in terms of strength of will or intelligence or understanding of the galaxy surrounding them, so how could they cope with the millenia of living they've been through ? I think that'd be enough to drive a lot of people crazy.

And let's not even get started on the religion. Some of them, such as Russ and Guilliman, were used by the Emperor himself as instruments of repression against creeds accepting the existence of divine or supernatural being or powers, so how would they react to an entire Imperium that's already made venerating the Emperor official a few decades or centuries after his internment in the Golden Throne ?
Dissuading the people from believing would be futile, since one of the major points of the Horus Heresy novels up to now has been to prove that no matter how hard you try, you can't stop people from trying to venerate some things as gods.
And being constantly reverred as 40K equivalents of Jesus Christ after everything the Emperor told them wouldn't be good either.

How long until one snapped and decided to execute anyone found guilty of religious worship (in this case : almost all of the Imperium) ?

How long until some of them actually got corrupted by chaos all over again ?

And if you look at events from the 40K timeline ... what would they have done during Goge Vandire's reign ? While most would probably have stayed true to the administratum, due to the Emperor's instructions regarding religion, what if the millenia of constant worship made some of them side with the ecclesiarchy ?

The list of things that could have gone wrong just keeps going on, and on, and on ...


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Gulliman is a douche bag. In age of darkness he was planning before everything reached it's climax to be a douche. Everything they accused the Lion of is what the Ultra douche had in mind. He figured he was the only son with his own empire, why not just step up and take the rest. I see what happened to him as karma. You reap what you so. He saw himself as the perfect choice to become the new Emperor of Mankind,so the primarch who previously had strived for perfection took his ass out.If Gulliman had remained in charge I see another civil war happening eventually. One almost broke out when he forced the codex down everyone's throats. To put it lightly,fuck Roboute Gulliman.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

My personal belief is that the only two primarchs that would be useful to a modern imperium would be Vulkan, Corax (minus the breakdown) and possibly Sang. Of all the primarchs they were driven more by duty to the imperium and humanity, where as a lot of other primarchs were more driven by glory and pride. Thoes were great characteristics of conquerors but in a time where expansion is not the top priority they could prove to be fairly dangerous. Imagine if Gulliman tried to step in as the Emp... the Lion would go crazy, russ would probably go crazy, Dorn would probably be pretty pissed, Ferrus is too headstrong to begin with etc... 

It is well know that the Salamanders are all about protecting the people which right now is really what the people of the Imperium need from the constant threats. Also he could help improve weapons by working with mars.

Corax himself stated that he thought it was wrong for the Primarchs to have so much power. He felt that the Imperium was for mankind and the primarchs were just tools to allow mankind to take its place as the rulers of everything. I can't picture him preforming and coups to seize power, or even wanting it. I feel out of all the primarchs he would just continue to serve the people behind the scenes.

Sang would just be a symbol. He was beloved by basically everyone and would make a perfect figure to rally behind with the emperor out of commission and i can't picture him using that to seize power as he was quite noble having never complained about not being warmaster even though Horus thought he should have been.

That's just my personal belief however.


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> My personal belief is that the only two primarchs that would be useful to a modern imperium would be Vulkan, Corax (minus the breakdown) and possibly Sang. Of all the primarchs they were driven more by duty to the imperium and humanity, where as a lot of other primarchs were more driven by glory and pride. Thoes were great characteristics of conquerors but in a time where expansion is not the top priority they could prove to be fairly dangerous. Imagine if Gulliman tried to step in as the Emp... the Lion would go crazy, russ would probably go crazy, Dorn would probably be pretty pissed, Ferrus is too headstrong to begin with etc...
> 
> It is well know that the Salamanders are all about protecting the people which right now is really what the people of the Imperium need from the constant threats. Also he could help improve weapons by working with mars.
> 
> ...


Arn't you forgetting the Khan? Out of all the primarchs he is the one who wanted to rule the least, not out of principle or a sense of duty, he just honestly didn't want to "rule" anything, not even his home planet. 
So it would take some major corrupting by chaos to make him seize power. 

He probably wouldn't be that much help to the imperium other than as a warrior, but thats the risk you take by having someone who definatly is not gonna backstab you and doom your nation.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

cegorach said:


> Arn't you forgetting the Khan? Out of all the primarchs he is the one who wanted to rule the least, not out of principle or a sense of duty, he just honestly didn't want to "rule" anything, not even his home planet.
> So it would take some major corrupting by chaos to make him seize power.
> 
> He probably wouldn't be that much help to the imperium other than as a warrior, but thats the risk you take by having someone who definatly is not gonna backstab you and doom your nation.


I did... but i find it hard to judge him anyway because so little is even known about him yet. From what has been said of him i don't think he would be of much use in the new Imperium.

He is probably the most offensive minded loyalist primarch, as his legion doesn't even make use of many heavy weapons or heavy tanks that slow them down. As basically an army of cavalry, he has to always be on the attack .

Corax being another primarch that is less suited to defense (but more so than khan,) if that role were needed i would give it to him as with him you also get that sense of duty and the instinctual sense of purpose to help thoes unable to help them selves rather than just win a battle and move on to the next.

He showed this especially by making the demand that if he were to take over the 19th legion the Emp had to make sure Deliverance was improved for the people he worked so hard to save.

He also has his tactical genius which is supposed to be one of the greatest. Horus even came to him before their argument to get advice and horus was the freakin warmaster.

Overall I think the offensive minded primarchs would be less helpful to the current Imperium with the exception of corax and sang for reasons already stated.

Dorn would be a good candidate as well however i find him to be very arrogant and his stubbornness might prevent him from adapting to a new way of doing things (splitting into chapters would be a good example) and that would slow down progress with infighting and arguing. His defenses however, if massed produced would help form an iron wall around the imperium that could be very beneficial. He just doesn't have the right character. Also i hate him.

Again just my opinions.


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## cegorach (Nov 29, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> I did... but i find it hard to judge him anyway because so little is even known about him yet. From what has been said of him i don't think he would be of much use in the new Imperium.
> 
> He is probably the most offensive minded loyalist primarch, as his legion doesn't even make use of many heavy weapons or heavy tanks that slow them down. As basically an army of cavalry, he has to always be on the attack .
> 
> ...


Yeah I guess you are right, the Khan wasn't completely against defending, he went all the way back to his home planet to stop it being plagued by dark eldar .... although this argument kind of falls apart when the Khan was so focussed on the kill he didn't realise he was running into the webway from which there would be no escape. Oh well .

I guess because the Khan is one of my favorites, I would like him to be useful. 
However the style of the Khan does lead to the White Scars being one of the only chapters to actually hunt down foes specifically who evaded their judgement. I'm sure other chapters do this, just the White Scars have an emphasis on it. 
But over all you are of course completely right.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

cegorach said:


> Yeah I guess you are right, the Khan wasn't completely against defending, he went all the way back to his home planet to stop it being plagued by dark eldar .... although this argument kind of falls apart when the Khan was so focussed on the kill he didn't realise he was running into the webway from which there would be no escape. Oh well .


I kind of misspoke as well though. Its not that he is against defending, just his defending isn't the same as say Dorns defending. Khan defends by killing everything before it gets to the fortress.

I think when they flush out Khan he will be pretty cool... Like Russ light... All the ferocity with half the "is best at everything" nonsense.


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

Once Russ comes back, he'll sort all this shit out and get things going again!


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## General-jwj (Sep 22, 2011)

Diatribe1974 said:


> Once Russ comes back, he'll sort all this shit out and get things going again!


Will he be coming back the same way Guilliman's wounds are supposedly "healing" inside of his stasis field ? :grin:

With what little knowledge of all the fluff that I possess, I think all the "good" Primarchs are gone for good. And almost all of the "bad" Primarchs stopped caring some time ago.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

I reckon if one of them survived it would of been bad, if two or three had survived they would of been voices of reason.

To change the question a bit if one came back...... Jesus Christ batman everything would go mental! all out civil war... I don't know, the lords of tera kinda have charge of the IG and IN so (let's say Sanguinious as he is my fav) would have to combat that or get them on there side, technology would go mental and be 1,000,000,000 times better, chaos would have some issues getting new recruits I reckon, the ad mech will need a bit of a slap, hmmmm to make them legions or not.....


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Hellados said:


> I reckon if one of them survived it would of been bad, if two or three had survived they would of been voices of reason.
> 
> To change the question a bit if one came back...... Jesus Christ batman everything would go mental! all out civil war... I don't know, the lords of tera kinda have charge of the IG and IN so (let's say Sanguinious as he is my fav) would have to combat that or get them on there side, technology would go mental and be 1,000,000,000 times better, chaos would have some issues getting new recruits I reckon, the ad mech will need a bit of a slap, hmmmm to make them legions or not.....


Good grief this theory of CoTe that the High Lords would not welcome the return of a Primarch has spread like wildfire (assuming he came up with it).

I believe the complete opposite would happen. The Primarch would be welcomed and if not by the High Lords then most defineately by the *entirety *of the Imperial Guard and he would not be deemed an impostor or an agent of chaos.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Yeah, I'm of the same mentality. If Corax, the Khan, the Lion, Russ, or Vulkan came back... and were able to prove their identity and lack of taint from Chaos... there would be no holding them back.

You really have to consider the underlying considerations. Politically, ideologically, etc., the overwhelming majority of Humanity don't even know who the Fabricator-General of Mars, the Master of the Administratum, the Grand Provost Marshal of the Adeptus Arbites, the Paternoval Envoy of the Navigators, the Master of the Astronomican, or, hell, even the Lord Commander Militant of the Imperial Guard are (by name or otherwise). *Everyone* knows that the Adeptus Astartes are the Emperor's own Angels of Death, and the Imperial Cult itself advertises the Primarchs (who are known by name) as sons of the divine and demigods in their own right.

The Imperium is so steeped in religious fanaticism that it would be a religious revival if it became common knowledge that a Primarch - never mind _five_ of them - returned.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I've often voiced the opinion aswell that the High Lords would not welcome the return of any of the primarchs, nor would the Inquisition, for the reasons Phobeus said above and many others. The Primarchs would instantly gain control of vast swathes of the Imperium without lifting a finger, a healthy amount of chapters would no doubt side with the primarch(s) no matter who their parent legion was. The High Lords would no doubt fear that kind of power, and likely some of them would be corrupt or power hungry enough to not want to relinquish any of their power to the primarchs(s).

But then i highly doubt they would try to kill them or declare war on them, as the ensuing civil war would be catastrophic. But then they wouldn't want to just give control to them either. At the same time i can see the Primarchs being wise enough to realise that trying to take control(if they even wanted to) would cause trouble aswell.

By belief is ultimately the High Lords would give the primarch control of a large crusade force and send them on a campaign that would keep them out of the way indefinetly, yet still be able to recall him/them if they really needed them, black crusades, tyranid hive fleets etc.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Who said the Primarchs would obey the High Lords?


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## General-jwj (Sep 22, 2011)

And what if the Primarchs came back, and everything went better than expected and the High Lords welcome them and there is a peaceful transition of power, and then they run the Imperium to the ground ?

It's written in plain black on white in the V5 rulebook that since the age of apostasy the Imperium has lost a sizeable portion of its forces, and technology and progress haven't exactly been plentiful since the time of the Primarchs. What if they come back, and go straight back to a new Great Crusade (wat with their father's dream of a united Galaxy under Mankind's reign, etc ...), expending resources that the old and tired Imperium simply can't handle anymore ?

What will happen when they over-extend by trying to conquer the whole Galaxy at once and wiping all xenos out when such ghastly menaces as the Tyranids and Necrons (threats that weren't there in the days of yonder Primarchs) start making trouble again, only to be faced with tired and depleted armies that have been fighting halfway across the cosmos ?


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

If you think about modern politics and the corruption, i would imagine that the high lords would have a few million hangers on and despite the best hopes of the high lords a few hundred thousand of them saying 'theyre tainted by chaos' would get them to attack the primarch. I dont think the whole IG would side with the high lord just the more power hungry stupid warmaster types that we have all heard about.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I'm going to have to side with Malus.

Dorn was around for many hundreds of years after the Heresy ended, and things seemed to have done all right.

Gulli went around trying to hold the Imperium together. He could have easily finished what Horus started (by taking Terra) and founded his own empire.

And I'd like to point out that the OP isn't asking "what would happen if a Primarch came back?" but rather "What would happen if a Primarch had stuck around for the last 10,000 years instead of dying/leaving mysteriously".


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm sorry, we're all talking about the same High Lords and Imperium right? The immensely paranoid, corrupt and internally conflicted one. 

Would they obey the High Lords? I would say yes, there would be no middle ground, either they do as they ask or they fight for control. And that would be a bloodbath of proportions not seen since the Heresy


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Dorn stuck around for 700+ years without a hitch. I think it was a sorta "you do your thing and we do our thing" sort of deal.

Would the Inquisition watch a Primarch like a hawk? Hell yes they would. Assuming that the Primarch kept loyal to the Imperium, I'm sure they'd be cool with that.

And look at how rule breakers get along in the modern Imperium. Everyone that is anyone in the Imperium know that the Black Templars and Space Wolves are breaking the rules. Not just bending them like other chapters, but they broke them, set them on fire, and pissed on them for good measure.

No one touches them, why? Because (so far) they've proven loyal and they're both cans of worms no one wants to open.

Now take a Primarch that could probably call dozens of chapters to his cause. Yeah, no one is going to risk pissing that guy off. Overtly or covertly.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

I think the Primarchs would end up in a new role. The Primarchs would probably conform a bit like Dorn had to but would literally only serve as a military role. I don't think anywhere the Emperor ever intended them to rule the imperium unless you a douchebag from ultramar. As far as listening to them and obeying the High Lords I don't see that happening. Without Malcador or the Emperor I see most of their answers to the High Lords being in the 4 letter realm. They will likely unite their legions and begin to fortify the Imperium against the Nids and Chaos.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

The thing is, the High Lords of Terra possess the sort of power that depends on the immediate loyalty of those below them.

* *The Master of the Administratum:* is he going to lose power? No. If anything, here is a High Lord who can rest easily knowing he's probably nigh-indispensible to a returning Primarch.

* *The Inquisitorial Representative:* power isn't something he or she's worried about losing. Not in a conventional sense. It's control that they would lose - only the Emperor is outside their purview, and now another would have to be added to said list.

But since when did a true Inquisitor worry about overt, obvious power? With at least three Chapters of Adeptus Astartes (Grey Knights, Exorcists, Red Hunters) under their authority (you might add the Deathwatch to that), as well as their own fleets and armies, if the Inquisition wished to do battle with a Primarch - overt or covert - they very well still could.

* *The Ecclesiarch of the Adeptus Ministorum:* I would argue that this High Lord would _welcome_ the return of a Primarch. The Imperial Cult focuses a good deal on the Emperor and the Primarchs, and the return of such a figure would only increase the Ecclesiarchy's "business".

Furthermore, if there are rivalries among the High Lords, I would argue the Ecclesiarch would seek out the favor of a Primarch to gain footing against his enemies.

* *The Fabricator-General of the Adeptus Mechanicus:* the relationship between Mars and Terra has never been perfect, and I could see how the Fabricator-General might worry about the balance of power becoming schewed again.

On the other hand, though, I doubt Mars would ever go their own way - save for a civil war. And the Primarchs have proved that they can work with the Mechanicum.

* *The Grand Provost Marshal of the Adeptus Arbites:* I'm not sure how a conflict could arise between a High Lord whose purview is planetary law enforcement and a galactic lord. Their "lanes" don't cross. One does not have to worry about the other interfering with him.

* *The Paternoval Envoy of the Navigators:* Again, I'm not sure where the conflict would arise. What power would they lose to a Primarch? How would the Navigators lose autonomy?

* *The Master of the Astronomican:* Again, I'm not sure where the conflict would arise.

* *The Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum:* As with the Inquisition, we're not talking about overt power here. Would a Primarch worry about shutting down the Assassinorum? Probably not. Would the Assassinorum thus worry about losing covert power? I don't see how.

* *The Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica:* Again, I'm not sure where the conflict would arise.

So on, so forth with the not-automatic candidates.

Ultimately, this enmity could only truly realistically surface under two scenarios:
1. If the High Lords felt they would lose power collectively - as a body - as opposed to individually. Because, let's face it, no single High Lord of Terra stands to lose power he possesses individually to a Primarch. The sole exceptions to this are the Lord Commander of the Segmentum Solar, the Lord Commander Militant of the Imperial Guard, and the Lord High Admiral of the Imperial Navy. They would have to deal with an individual who would, ultimately, be counted as Lord Commander of the Imperium.

But you know what? There's a precedent for that. Guilliman was Lord Commander of the Imperium. He _put_ the High Lords in power. As long as the returning Primarch indicated he would find such titles sufficient, then there's no conflict.

And besides, the LCotSS, LCMotIG, and LHAotIN didn't have guaranteed seats on the Senate anyways. In fact, the only reason why they're even on the list of potential candidates is because there's no Lord Commander of the Imperium anymore.

2. If the High Lords (well, aside from the Fabricator-General) are not true believers of the Imperial Creed. Because, let's face it, anyone of them who _is_ would welcome a proven (as in, proven to not be tainted, insane*, etc.) Primarch back with open arms.

* Although, let's face it, sanity among the High Lords is neither guaranteed nor held sacred. :wink:

Cheers,
P.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

i think my argument is centered around a fear of the high lords being scared of losing power collectively not individually


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Hellados said:


> i think my argument is centered around a fear of the high lords being scared of losing power collectively not individually


Again, it's not that they're coming back, but if they were here the whole time.

If Russ came back in 41k, maybe people might be edgy.

But the OP stated that the Primarch(s) never left/died. So it's not as if they're afraid of losing power suddenly, it's something they grew up with.

And, really, they really couldn't do anything. Now with the Astartes backing them up.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

To be honest with you Phoebus I don't see the GK, DW, Excorcists, or Corsairs snapping too because the Inquisition says so. While they are the militant arm of the Ordo's it's more of a "You have a problem that we can handle and it's for a good of the Imperium" relationship. All astartes can and will tell the Inquisition to SMD if it came to something they didn't agree with. The astartes is still like the inquisition only answer to the Emperor and their primarchs (who aren't showing up anytime soon). If a loyalist Primarch came back and demanded his sons and nephews (as the Astartes viewed primarchs from other legions as uncles) to snap to they would do it. The GK would look a bit more objectively but the DW would fall apart. IT's made up of men who are only on loan to the Ordos. The Inquisition might have some Guard regiments and naval assets but the astartes would ball all that up quickly through fear and power.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

The Red Hunters most certainly do answer directly to the Inquisition. Their whole gimmick is centered on being led by Inquisitors and such, is it not?

You have a point with the Grey Knights, on the other hand. Where the Exorcists are concerned? I don't know. Much of what they do seems to come with the supervision and acceptance of the Inquisition. I'd argue that they came to be - and do what they do - precisely because the Ordo Malleus couldn't have their way to such an extent with the Grey Knights.

Beyond that, the Inquisition's greatest strength is its secrecy. No one besides the Inquisition knows who all the Inquisitors are. Or where all their strongholds, vessels, etc., are. Raw strength alone won't stop them.


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## General-jwj (Sep 22, 2011)

Phoebus said:


> Beyond that, the Inquisition's greatest strength is its secrecy. No one besides the Inquisition knows who all the Inquisitors are. Or where all their strongholds, vessels, etc., are. Raw strength alone won't stop them.


Maybe the Alpha Legion could pull that one off ...

But back on topic, the more I read everyone's arguments, the more I wonder if the general aura of pessimism that permeates this thread is well-deserved. Maybe it _wouldn't_ be so messed up if one or more of the Primarchs came back ...


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> Who said the Primarchs would obey the High Lords?


Exactly. The Primarchs respect no authority but there own. Many were often shown to be openly comtemptuous of the Councils predecessors. With the snap of their fingers the Primarchs could control countless armies. They have no reason to obey the High Lords.

However, the inverse is also true. The High Lords are proud, arrogant and power hungry. They would not appreciate being subordinated, even to a Primarch.



hailene said:


> Would the Inquisition watch a Primarch like a hawk? Hell yes they would. Assuming that the Primarch kept loyal to the Imperium, I'm sure they'd be cool with that.


The Primarchs? Hell no. They have been consistently shown as immensly proud and individualistic. The idea that they would be fine with a bunch of mere humans monitoring their activities, let alone trying to censor them, would piss most of them right off.



Phoebus said:


> * *The Ecclesiarch of the Adeptus Ministorum:* I would argue that this High Lord would _welcome_ the return of a Primarch. The Imperial Cult focuses a good deal on the Emperor and the Primarchs, and the return of such a figure would only increase the Ecclesiarchy's "business".


I am not so sure that the highest eschelons of the Ecclesiarchy would welcome a Primarch back. Yes, as the center of their faith they are going to command a good deal of worship however there are a few other things to consider. 

1) Most of the Primarchs were pretty staunch athiests. They are not going to enjoy being fonts of outright religious worship, though some might go along with it. If they choose to question the faith how is that going to look. Imagine if Jesus came back and basically said "Hey guys, I'm not the Son of God, I'm just pretty cool. God isn't real. You shouldn't worship him." That would seriously screw with peoples faith.
2) The Ecclesiarchy maintains its power by controlling access to the God-Emperor and his saints. Much like the church of the middle ages (or earlier, dates ain't my strong suit) they are respected, supported and feared because they, and they alone, control the fate of your soul. A Primarch provides another option, one that would draw considerable support from the common people (particularly if it was one of the friendly ones). 
3) The highest member of the Ecclesiarchy would have to become subservent to any Primarch that returned. How could the Pope not step aside for Jesus? As a son of god the Primarch is inarguably the greatest source of religious power and knowledge in the Imperium, making the Ecclesiarchy his servants, willingly or not.



> * *The Fabricator-General of the Adeptus Mechanicus:* the relationship between Mars and Terra has never been perfect, and I could see how the Fabricator-General might worry about the balance of power becoming schewed again.


A Primarch is unlikely to concern himself with the 'limitations' the Ad Mech currently places on itself. He will demand more production and likely more innovation (particularly if it's Vulkan) which will likely stress the Ad Mech's monopoly and control over technical knowledge.



> * *The Grand Provost Marshal of the Adeptus Arbites:* I'm not sure how a conflict could arise between a High Lord whose purview is planetary law enforcement and a galactic lord. Their "lanes" don't cross. One does not have to worry about the other interfering with him.[/qoute]
> 
> Unless the Primarch decides to change the laws or how they are enforced, which is quite possible depending on who it is. In addition his position would likely be threatened simply by the massive civil unrest that will come from the Primarchs return (people wanting to see him, thinking the end-is-nigh, etc).
> 
> ...


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

MEQinc said:


> The Primarchs? Hell no. They have been consistently shown as immensly proud and individualistic. The idea that they would be fine with a bunch of mere humans monitoring their activities, let alone trying to censor them, would piss most of them right off.


Fine, maybe, maybe not. Depends on the Primarch. I'm sure Russ would be less than happy, but look at "Prospero Burns". He not only welcomes someone to monitor his Legion, but welcomes a person he knows to be a spy. 

I think the Primarchs would be okay with someone watching them, if only to show their loyalty.

And as I said before, only in the most extreme actions on a Primarch's part would receive any sanctions. Some chapters already get away with openly breaking the Codex Astartes. A Primarch, with so much more power behind him, would have that much more leeway before anyone was willing to step in.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> I am not so sure that the highest eschelons of the Ecclesiarchy would welcome a Primarch back.


The welcoming part is contingent on how much of a true believer the Ecclesiarch and his followers are. If they're believers, then it's unrealistic to assume they would act against the sons of the Emperor.



> 1) Most of the Primarchs were pretty staunch athiests. They are not going to enjoy being fonts of outright religious worship, though some might go along with it. If they choose to question the faith how is that going to look. Imagine if Jesus came back and basically said "Hey guys, I'm not the Son of God, I'm just pretty cool. God isn't real. You shouldn't worship him." That would seriously screw with peoples faith.


Guilliman demonstrated a great degree of pragmatism. His date of death is unknown, but it was after the High Lords of Terra were appointed and definitely after worship of the Emperor became a common thing. And yet we hear of no pogroms or persecution.

I think we need to consider that, not counting those exceptions plagues by insanity and/or similar conditions, most of the Primarchs were very intelligent (understatement!) and understood the mindset of the people they needed to deal with (hence, the whole "peerless diplomat") bit. Absent the Emperor, and with the Great Crusade stalled, I don't see them* doing anything different than Guilliman did.

* Meaning Guilliman himself**, Corax, the Khan, and Russ. I don't count those Primarchs who died or disappeared during the Heresy (or immediately after it where the Lion is concerned).

** Where stasis is concerned, I always leave room for miracles.



> 2) The Ecclesiarchy maintains its power by controlling access to the God-Emperor and his saints. Much like the church of the middle ages (or earlier, dates ain't my strong suit) they are respected, supported and feared because they, and they alone, control the fate of your soul. A Primarch provides another option, one that would draw considerable support from the common people (particularly if it was one of the friendly ones).
> 3) The highest member of the Ecclesiarchy would have to become subservent to any Primarch that returned. How could the Pope not step aside for Jesus? As a son of god the Primarch is inarguably the greatest source of religious power and knowledge in the Imperium, making the Ecclesiarchy his servants, willingly or not.


And just as the Primarchs are intelligent, so must we also assume that (most of) the Ecclesiarchs are similarly intelligent individuals.

Sure, you might worry about #2 and #3 if you're not a true believer. On the other hand, though, we have no reason to assume the religious leaders of the 31st and 32nd millennia were cynics. If the Primarchs didn't disappear (and assuming they are immortal), the Ecclesiarchy turning against them would be like the Catholic Church turning on Jesus.

In the scenario where Primarchs return, though (and this isn't the scenario the OP was proposing, but whatever... I screwed up, too, initially), you have to go by their pragmatism. They may very well feel threatened, but the only guaranteed way to lose a hold of their followers is to openly oppose a Primarch who has proven his origin and purity.

And again, if the Primarch proved his willingness to return on the same basis as the 31st millennium (Lord Commander of the Imperium, equal to the other High Lords), there's no conflict.



> A Primarch is unlikely to concern himself with the 'limitations' the Ad Mech currently places on itself. He will demand more production and likely more innovation (particularly if it's Vulkan) which will likely stress the Ad Mech's monopoly and control over technical knowledge.


I don't see how. In no way could any one Primarch "push" the Mechanicum any more than the Emperor did during the Great Crusade... in terms of production or innovation. In neither case, though, would the Adeptus Mechanicum's monopoly be threatened. The Emperor didn't, so how (or why) would a Primarch? What alternative is there? Why risk your power base thusly?



> Unless the Primarch decides to change the laws or how they are enforced, which is quite possible depending on who it is.


Who among those Primarchs capable of returning? And when did they demonstrate such concerns? Primarchs worried about Compliance during the Great Crusade and concerned themselves only with reconquering lost worlds and defeating heretics and traitors during the Scouring.



> In addition his position would likely be threatened simply by the massive civil unrest that will come from the Primarchs return (people wanting to see him, thinking the end-is-nigh, etc).


Sorry, but this seems like a stretch to me.



> The situation is very different now than it was when Guilliman handed over the reigns. Firstly, now of these Lords were alive then. This means that there is no reason why they wouldn't be afraid of a Primarch trying to sieze all their power.


_What_ power could or would he seize? That's the question. No High Lord needs worry about their power bases being usurped or taken away from them. They don't rule lands or planets that the Primarch would contest. They don't own wealth or receive tithes that the Primarch would be envious of. With the exception of three military officers who do not receive automatic seats in the Senate to begin with, there is absolutely no one who would have lose out.

The High Lords would have everything to gain if a Primarch returned and agreed to receiving Guilliman's traditional rank and everything to lose if they turned against him publicly. I honestly don't think the nay-sayers realize what a polarizing effect such an action would have not just on the common people of the Imperium but the _Astartes_ as well.

Cheers,
P.


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