# Why the Wolves?



## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Their are a hundred threads about the Space Wolves being the Emperors executioners but i couldn't find a thread in my searching as to why. Forgive me if this has been brought up before.

Why did the Emp choose the Space Wolves to kill off other Legions (Thousand Sons and one or both of the missing legions)?

I feel like there are much better options.

The Ultramarines obviously as they could just use their numbers to overwhelm the "enemy" legion. Probably result in a shorter battle. (would work only for the Thousand Sons.)

The Raven Guard or Alpha Legion as they could possibly destroy them by sabotage or by surprise before they were even discovered. Probably result in fewer casualties.

Night Lords as the Emp seemed to make them do a lot of the dirty work. Having a misbehaving son seems like a failure on the big E's part and it would fit that he would make Kruze fix his mistake and shoulder the blame.

World Eaters as they were always striving to find a good fight and astartes vs astartes pretty much promises to be. The Wolves seems fairly straight forward and very physical in their tactics and succeeded. The World Eaters are Even more so so would they have done better?

Perturabo would be effective if it came to a siege obviously.


So whats special about the Space Wolves besides them being lap dog-ishly obedient? 

I know Russ wasn't overly fond of Magnus but neither was Mortarion so i don't think it was just a grudge match. That also wouldn't explain the other legion(s).

And would they be used if a different legion needed to get destroyed? What if the Ultramarines and their 250,000 members did something very bad. Would the Emp release his purse dog on them as well?


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

The answer is fairly simple. The Wolves were always willing to do whatever was needed for success, and were willing to do whatever the emperor ordered. Made them a perfect choice for the role. They were loyal beyond question, so that doesn't hurt.


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## Euphrati (May 24, 2009)

Klaivex said:


> Their are a hundred threads about the Space Wolves being the Emperors executioners but i couldn't find a thread in my searching as to why. Forgive me if this has been brought up before.
> 
> Why did the Emp choose the Space Wolves to kill off other Legions (Thousand Sons and one or both of the missing legions)?
> 
> ...


Think less 'lap-dog' and more highly-trained and utterly loyal war-dog. One that does not question, nor hesitate, when its master commands it to destroy.

There is nothing 'lap-dog' about Leman Russ and his sons. Their loyalty to the AllFather has never been in question and it was that loyalty that marked them out for the ultimate duty. Out of all of the Legions, they were the only one that the Emperor designed with the focus and unflinching dedication to take on the burden of destroying a brother Legion without question or pause. 

Where other Legions might have had the numbers, or differing skill-sets, the Wolves had the devotion to carry out the Emperor's orders _to the letter_ even through their own grief.

That is why they, over all others, were the Emperor's Executioners.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Euphrati said:


> Think less 'lap-dog' and more highly-trained and utterly loyal war-dog. One that does not question, nor hesitate, when its master commands it to destroy.
> 
> There is nothing 'lap-dog' about Leman Russ and his sons. Their loyalty to the AllFather has never been in question and it was that loyalty that marked them out for the ultimate duty. Out of all of the Legions, they were the only one that the Emperor designed with the focus and unflinching dedication to take on the burden of destroying a brother Legion without question or pause.
> 
> ...


A lap dog is someone who is always willing to do what he is told by someone so by your own definition he is a lap dog. I wasn't talking about Russ actually curling up on the Emps lap for a scratch on the chin (though that does paint a fairly humerus and homoerotic image).

And if what you say is true I find them to be fairly sad, tragic and frankly pathetic.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Klaivex said:


> A lap dog is someone who is always willing to do what he is told by someone so by your own definition he is a lap dog. I wasn't talking about Russ actually curling up on the Emps lap for a scratch on the chin (though that does paint a fairly humerus and homoerotic image).
> 
> And if what you say is true I find them to be fairly sad, tragic and frankly pathetic.


How?
Limit


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

My personal opinion? Because the Space Wolf/Rout mentality was the best suited. Their Primarch was predatory and cunning, but not out of control. His upbringing had instilled a capacity for a sort of savage ruthlessness in him, but he was able to compliment it with an understanding of society, discipline, and hierarchy. And, more importantly, he was willing to work within those structures.

His warriors inherited those traits. They, too, grew up in a brutal world, but even after receiving the Canix Helix, they were the products of a society where you had to survive within a group, respect authority, and work together toward a common goal. They were capable of great violence, but they were also capable of great control.

You don't really see that combination in the other Legions, though some arguable approach it.

The Dark Angels, for instance, eventually became the personification of knightly orders first and foremost. The Ultramarines came from a highly structured society whose edicts simply didn't aim toward utter eradication as a viable means of warfare. The World Eaters were compromised by their psycho-surgery. The Raven Guard, more than any other Legion, might have been the most sympathetic toward those who might be termed as collateral damage. However dangerous his followers may have been in human life, Sanguinius does not seem to have been willing to toe the same line Russ would - that is, he seems a "true believer" and not an "ends justify the means" guy like his brother.

The Khan seems like a good substitute for Russ, but really when you look at his actions and mentality, he's not all-out like the Wolves. Devastation, for him, is the consequence for resistance - not the first and only step (in fact, his mentality, if you think about it, is basically the Imperial standard... Compliance or else). The Night Lords were led by a sociopath, and it's qualified that more and more of their number were outright criminals whose lack of morality colored their campaigns moreso than some dedication to the Imperium's "ideals".

Again, that's just my take, though. 

EDIT: Euphrati nailed it, and in much less words. Klaivex, the main difference between a lapdog and what Euphrati is talking about is conscious, calculated conviction. "Lapdog" is meant as an insulting term precisely because it implies the nature of a base dog - one that acts instinctively, and without understanding. That's not Russ. Or his Space Wolves. They are vicious, but for defined, self-understood reasons.

Cheers,
P.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> How?


If what was said is the case then they have no will for themselves. They would do something even if they disagreed with it which in my eyes is fairly pathetic.

The fact that the Emp exploited that is sad for them. 

If your dad told you to kill your brother and you had to obey him, even if you weren't super close with that brother, its still has to be an emotionally tragic event. Just look how all the primarches acted during the Heresy.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Klaivex said:


> If what was said is the case then they have no will for themselves. They would do something even if they disagreed with it which in my eyes is fairly pathetic.
> 
> The fact that the Emp exploited that is sad for them.
> 
> If your dad told you to kill your brother and you had to obey him, even if you weren't super close with that brother, its still has to be an emotionally tragic event. Just look how all the primarches acted during the Heresy.


They are soldiers, it is their obligation to do as their commander orders. 

The emperor exploited every human in the galaxy, at least those under his command. The Wolves were just less questioning. 

There were clones. The emperor was not his "Father," and the primarchs were not his "Brothers." If he let such silly notions stop him from doing his duty, all could have been lost.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

But it's not just a case of having no will, and it's not a case of conventional brotherhood.

You have to remember that all the Primarchs were different and that they were shaped by the worlds they grew up in. It's a testament to their character that they were (most of them, at any rate) able to identify with one another and share bonds (and remember, even Russ pleaded in his own way for Magnus to step back and avert disaster), but they're not just normal human beings.

If you and I were brothers raised in the same household by the same parents, in a society normal for the 21st century, an attempt by one of us to murder the other would be considered abhorrent. But Leman Russ _was raised by wolves,_ was subsequently ensconced in a warlike society wherein tribal groups are constantly competing with/killing one another for resources, and even later adopted by a galactic overlord whose quest for "utopia" could only be achieved through total war. Leman Russ, realistically speaking, has no reason to be acting under the same moral constraints as you and I. His upbringing, experience, and code of ethics is completely at odds with yours and mine.

Cheers,
P.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> EDIT: Euphrati nailed it, and in much less words. Klaivex, the main difference between a lapdog and what Euphrati is talking about is conscious, calculated conviction. "Lapdog" is meant as an insulting term precisely because it implies the nature of a base dog - one that acts instinctively, and without understanding. That's not Russ. Or his Space Wolves. They are vicious, but for defined, self-understood reasons.
> 
> Cheers,
> P.


Well since we don't know what happened exactly to to missing legions we can only reliably base this on Prospero.

Magnus tried to save the everything the Emp worked so hard to create by warning him what was going to happen, granted it messed up his webway project. Now the instead of dealing with Magnus's warning and then going back to fix the webway (he was immortal after all. Not like he had a time limit.) he threw a hissy fit and said to Russ "Fetch!" and Russ did without question. But he was only told to bring him back to terra to get scolded. Horus was the one who said "sick em boy!" and despite the EMPERORS orders to take him alive Russ wagged his tail for the warmaster and attacked. It seems to me that he does have the nature of a base dog always doing what he is told no matter the master (which granted would make them good executioners which i suppose answers my original question) but it just makes me pity the Wolves.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> They are soldiers, it is their obligation to do as their commander orders.
> 
> The emperor exploited every human in the galaxy, at least those under his command. The Wolves were just less questioning.
> 
> There were clones. The emperor was not his "Father," and the primarchs were not his "Brothers." If he let such silly notions stop him from doing his duty, all could have been lost.


So if the wolves were the least questioning wouldn't that mean they are the obedient? In wolf terms that would make them the omega aka the weakest willed.

All could have been lost, or magnus wouldn't have turned by the betrayal and would be on the golden throne while the emp smacked the crap out of his bad kids.


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## Euphrati (May 24, 2009)

The term 'lap-dog' typically denotes a person who is docile, submissive, and/or with a follower mentality that is easily controlled by more dominant personality. None of which describe Russ in the slighest.

It sounds to me as if you have not yet read Prospero Burns (Horus Heresy novel by Dan Abnett ) or Battle of the Fang (space marine battle novel by Chris Wraight), both of which contain insight into the Wolves and their role within the ranks of the astartes. Each Legion was designed for a purpose by the Emperor, it was something that Leman understood and accepted as his duty where as others saw him as he wished them to- the uncouth, barbarian king whose first response was violence and aggression.

He was much, much more than the facade he showed to those who had no thought to look deeper.

Edit- it seems I was correct in thinking your canon was out of date. The events surrounding Magnus' trial and subsequent oathbreaking have been further expounded upon by GW and BL. Russ was sent by the Emperor, with custodius and silent sisters as backup, to destroy the Thousand Sons primarch for what he had done. The working that Magnus destroyed not only could never be 'fixed' but also placed the entirety of Terra at risk. The Emperor didn't simply throw a tiff over spilled milk.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Klaivex said:


> So if the wolves were the least questioning wouldn't that mean they are the obedient? In wolf terms that would make them the omega aka the weakest willed.
> 
> All could have been lost, or magnus wouldn't have turned by the betrayal and would be on the golden throne while the emp smacked the crap out of his bad kids.


The wolves are actually one of the strongest willed of of the legions. 

That is simply wrong. If you have read "A Thousand Sons" you should know this.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> If you and I were brothers raised in the same household by the same parents, in a society normal for the 21st century, an attempt by one of us to murder the other would be considered abhorrent. But Leman Russ _was raised by wolves,_ was subsequently ensconced in a warlike society wherein tribal groups are constantly competing with/killing one another for resources, and even later adopted by a galactic overlord whose quest for "utopia" can only be achieved through total war. Leman Russ, realistically speaking, has no reason to be acting under the same moral constraints as you and I. His upbringing, experience, and code of ethics is completely at odds with yours and mind.
> 
> Cheers,
> P.


I would have to disagree. Russ to me seems like one of the more "friendly" primarches. It would make sense, having be raised by wolves, to have strong family (pack) bonds. In the fight with the Lion he was the one who gave up, laughing about how silly it was. If he was as tempered by his primal upbringing i doubt he would have been so jolly about it.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Whoa, now. The Emperor did sent out a set of orders, but the Warmaster is his appointed second. "Prospero Burns" shows how much Russ respects the Warmaster. On top of that, I don't think it's stated anywhere that the Emperor went to Russ directly. In "False Gods", Horus just says he reached Russ and that he had ensured Magnus would not come home alive. Why would the Emperor have done that? Probably because the Emperor respects his son enough to not disregard the chain of command he set up, and sent him the message first. This is a fundamental principle of military structure.

Either way, though, the fact that Russ STILL tried to get Magnus to back down shows he's not just an unthinking lackey.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> I would have to disagree. Russ to me seems like one of the more "friendly" primarches. It would make sense, having be raised by wolves, to have strong family (pack) bonds. In the fight with the Lion he was the one who gave up, laughing about how silly it was. If he was as tempered by his primal upbringing i doubt he would have been so jolly about it.


Friendly? He wrecks planets. He and his Legion are known for being the most comprehensive in annihilating targets.

Wolves are predators first and foremost. They have familial ties, but they also compete for resources. How do you think an Alpha gets replaced? What do you think happens when an Alpha no longer has the power to be dominant?

Yes, Russ has a sense of humor. Yes, he doesn't want to kill Magnus out of hand, and hopes he doesn't have to. Nonetheless, he is capable of great savagery and brutality - when directed to do so.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Euphrati said:


> The term 'lap-dog' typically denotes a person who is docile, submissive, and/or with a follower mentality that is easily controlled by more dominant personality. None of which describe Russ in the slighest.


A lap dog is someone eager to do another's bidding. It has nothing to do with dominance or submission (tho russ was submissive to the emp as all primarches were before the heresy)


> Each Legion was designed for a purpose by the Emperor, it was something that Leman understood and accepted as his duty where as others saw him as he wished them to- the uncouth, barbarian king whose first response was violence and aggression.


Thats just something some space wolves believe. Their is no proof that the Emp had plans for any of the primarches save for magnus (because they spoke while he was still a fetus). He had no control over the primarches upbringing as chaos took them to the planets where they would be raised.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Klaivex said:


> Thats just something some space wolves believe. Their is no proof that the Emp had plans for any of the primarches save for magnus (because they spoke while he was still a fetus). He had no control over the primarches upbringing as chaos took them to the planets where they would be raised.


The designations were made after they were found. Also, other legions thought the same.


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## Euphrati (May 24, 2009)

I highly suggest that you take the time to read Prospero Burns and Battle of the Fang before you make such finite statements without the newest and most fleshed out canon.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> The designations were made after they were found. Also, other legions thought the same.


what i responded to:


> Each Legion was designed for a purpose by the Emperor


Each Legion was not designed for a purpose by the Emp. Each primarch obtained a specialty based on their upbringing and passed that on to their legion. The Emp simply used them for what they excelled at. There was no grand plan as that would have been impossible. I stand by what i said.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

It's because they're pretty much like their namesakes suggest, obedient and vicious dogs, forever loyal to their master.

It's no coincidence they alone bear some kind of animal DNA out of all the legions.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> Friendly? He wrecks planets. He and his Legion are known for being the most comprehensive in annihilating targets.
> 
> Wolves are predators first and foremost. They have familial ties, but they also compete for resources. How do you think an Alpha gets replaced? What do you think happens when an Alpha no longer has the power to be dominant?
> 
> Yes, Russ has a sense of humor. Yes, he doesn't want to kill Magnus out of hand, and hopes he doesn't have to. Nonetheless, he is capable of great savagery and brutality - when directed to do so.


Not friendly to his enemies. The wolf is never friendly to the elk.

Wolf packs don't compete for resources within the pack. Their is a clearly defined pecking order. I have worked with Grey and red wolves and it is very clear. Thats zoology and not 40kology however.

And i still am failing to see what everyone is talking about. I said myself that I agree that he does what he is told all the time. In my eyes he is weaker willed than someone who doesn't follow every order.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Klaivex said:


> Each Legion was not designed for a purpose by the Emp. Each primarch obtained a specialty based on their upbringing and passed that on to their legion. The Emp simply used them for what they excelled at. There was no grand plan as that would have been impossible. I stand by what i said.


In all probability, he did have a design for each legion. Simply might not have turned out that way.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> It's because they're pretty much like their namesakes suggest, obedient and vicious dogs, forever loyal to their master.
> 
> It's no coincidence they alone bear some kind of animal DNA out of all the legions.


I like this answer! its short sweet and to the point. They are obedient.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Euphrati, Phobeus, I fear you are wasting your time here. This is not a 'explain Russ, the Wolves and their actions to me do I can better understand them' thread, this is a 'I don't like Russ and his lapdogs and I will see them as such no matter what you say' thread. Notice the continual ignorance of the point that he has not read the recent fluff, the points that once irrevocably countered are then ignored and forgotten and the constant referral back to 'they are lapdogs and will accept nothing else'.

Again, wasting your time and knowledge.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> I like this answer! its short sweet and to the point. They are obedient.


Just like all the primarchs prior to the Heresy.

Keep up the ignorance fella! k:


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> And i still am failing to see what everyone is talking about. I said myself that I agree that he does what he is told all the time. In my eyes he is weaker willed than someone who doesn't follow every order.


You said yourself... but _I'm not agreeing with you._

You're trying to assert that he has no will, obeys unquestioningly, etc., but you're basing this opinion _without having read the book that defines his character and that of his Legion._


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Oh and just for the record, the Emperor made it very clear at Nikea that anyone who broke his edict would faces his full wrath, not be brought for trial. As far as the most recent fluff goes, Russ did exactly as ordered


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

I am going to respong to a few thing here since they all have the same answer.



Angel of Blood said:


> Euphrati, Phobeus, I fear you are wasting your time here. This is not a 'explain Russ, the Wolves and their actions to me do I can better understand them' thread, this is a 'I don't like Russ and his lapdogs and I will see them as such no matter what you say' thread. Notice the continual ignorance of the point that he has not read the recent fluff, the points that once irrevocably countered are then ignored and forgotten and the constant referral back to 'they are lapdogs and will accept nothing else'.
> 
> Again, wasting your time and knowledge.


 
I don't dislike Russ or the Wolves. They were my first army actually way back when.I think they are perfectly designed to be just about the ultimate fanboy legion, what with the drinking and the big viking appearance and the role as executioners. In a game dominated by age group that the vast majority of 40K players are they are a marketing masterpiece.

But look at everyone's answers:



> *obedient* and vicious dogs, *forever loyal to their master*





> were willing to *do whatever the emperor ordered*. Made them a perfect choice for the role. They were *loyal beyond question*, so that doesn't hurt.





> *utterly loyal* war-dog. One that *does not question, nor hesitate, when its master commands* it to destroy.





> The Wolves were just *less questioning*.





Phoebus said:


> You're trying to assert that he has no will, obeys unquestioningly, etc., but you're basing this opinion _without having read the book that defines his character and that of his Legion._


I am basing it off of what has been said in this thread.

So fluff aside in everyone's own words the Wolves were the most unquestioningly loyal, obedient legion, more so than the other legions and that's what made them the best for the job in question.

I do not disagree with this. I just see the the supreme obedience as a weakness of character. Like they are more like tools, which astartes are _supposed_ to be, so it probably make them one of the most useful tools to the empirium. 

I find them to be opposites of legions like the Thousand sons and Word bearers who did things that the Emp got down right angry about. And when he ordered they change, instead of just obeying they resented him and it lead to them turning traitor. (very simplified)

Fluff wise they have even been likened to lapdogs by the leader of the rebels on Dulan if I am not mistaken. 

And just to clarify the definition of lapdog that I am using (since their are multiple definitions of some words) is "Someone who will always do what the group leader asks without question." The group leader(s) in this case being the Emp/Warmaster. That is EXACTLY how 3 or 4 people have described him in this thread. It does not mean he was a bad leader, it does not mean he was a bad warrior, it does not mean anything bad that everyone has gotten so upset over. It just means he is very obedient. 

It is the sign of a very useful and powerful "weapon" but as a person (used very vaguely) he can be seen as less strong willed than others who do not obey *unquestioningly*. Again this is strictly going by what has been said in this thread.



> Just like all the primarchs prior to the Heresy.
> 
> Keep up the ignorance fella!


This is incorrect. Magnus and Lorgar were already mentioned above. 

Angron had a strong resentment to the Emp for what he did to his gladiator gang and refused to even join the Emp in the beginning. He even was criticized by the Big E for modifying his warriors which he did anyway.

Kruze seemed to only obey out of spite so he could prove the Emps fallibility.

So no. Not all primarches were unquestioningly obedient. :victory:!


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

It is an unquestionable fact that what drove Magnus the Red and his entire Legion to the side of the Warmaster was the Wolves assault on Prospero. The Rout follows orders to the letter, they attack without hesitation and without mercy and without any regard for the consequences of their actions. Notice you see no remorse from them when Casper reveals that they had been manipulated by Horus all along. They were simply doing as ordered, and as a result, one of the most powerful psykers in the galaxy turned to Chaos. Millions of innocent civilians were killed needlessly. This wasn't a world in rebellion, a world turned to Chaos; this was a world of the Imperium, a priceless jewel of knowledge, destroyed because the Wolves were unable to see how their nature was being twisted to suit the needs of the Warmaster.

"I was just following orders" has never saved a soldier from punishment. The Wolves being the Emperor's 'Executioners' is at once their greatest strength, and their greatest failing.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

SonOfStan said:


> It is an unquestionable fact that what drove Magnus the Red and his entire Legion to the side of the Warmaster was the Wolves assault on Prospero. The Rout follows orders to the letter, they attack without hesitation and without mercy and without any regard for the consequences of their actions. Notice you see no remorse from them when Casper reveals that they had been manipulated by Horus all along. They were simply doing as ordered, and as a result, one of the most powerful psykers in the galaxy turned to Chaos. Millions of innocent civilians were killed needlessly. This wasn't a world in rebellion, a world turned to Chaos; this was a world of the Imperium, a priceless jewel of knowledge, destroyed because the Wolves were unable to see how their nature was being twisted to suit the needs of the Warmaster.


Have you read prospero burns? This is all wrong. lol :laugh:


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Klaivex said:


> I am basing it off of what has been said in this thread.


But you should be basing it off the actual fluff. I mean, I'm trying to convey an opinion that's informed by the "Prospero Burns", for instance. Sure, there will still be disagreements, but at least then we're working off of the same material. I mean, I've never eaten caviar... and until I do, I'm not about to say it tastes like chicken. 

In this case, what you're missing is the fact that Russ was a layered character: capable of terrible things, but also of caring for his declared enemy brother enough to try to avert violence - despite his orders; barbarian-like, blunt behavior, but also a degree of subtleness that fooled almost everyone who knew him.



> Fluff wise they have even been likened to lapdogs by the leader of the rebels on Dulan if I am not mistaken.


So what? Is he an objective narrator, or a fair assessor of the Space Wolves? Of course not. Lucius of the Emperor's Children also talks a bunch of trash in the novels he's been in, but I wouldn't take him seriously as a character judge.



> And just to clarify the definition of lapdog that I am using (since their are multiple definitions of some words) is "Someone who will always do what the group leader asks without question."


Well then, congratulations. You seem to have skipped the bottom of the definitions list, though. But if you look at the common usage of the word, you'll find ...

From Collins English Dictionary:
1. a pet dog small and docile enough to be cuddled in the lap 
2. a person who attaches himself to someone in admiration or infatuation 

From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
1: a small dog that may be held in the lap 
2: a servile dependent or follower

Servile is defined as "of or befitting a slave or a menial position," and "meanly or cravenly submissive."

... that neither the Space Wolves nor their Primarch meet its definition.

Incidentally, I'm fairly sure Grins1878 was responding to your statement with a healthy amount of sarcasm. That is, he disgreed with your assertion that Primarchs were these obedient creatures. :wink:


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> But you should be basing it off the actual fluff. I mean, I'm trying to convey an opinion that's informed by the "Prospero Burns", for instance. Sure, there will still be disagreements, but at least then we're working off of the same material. I mean, I've never eaten caviar... and until I do, I'm not about to say it tastes like chicken.
> 
> In this case, what you're missing is the fact that Russ was a layered character: capable of terrible things, but also of caring for his declared enemy brother enough to try to avert violence - despite his orders; barbarian-like, blunt behavior, but also a degree of subtleness that fooled almost everyone who knew him.


Had I just been talking to you then i would agree that it should be solely based off of the fluff but others in this thread have posed their opinion to the answer to the original question (which is what I asked for).

I don't disagree that Russ had character. I don't think I ever said he was one dimensional. He could be the most cunning tactical brilliant commander with lots of subtle personality traits but if he comes across as unquestionably loyal (which it seems he does as the vast majority of people in this thread have said that exact thing) then i don't see a problem with what I have said.




> So what? Is he an objective narrator, or a fair assessor of the Space Wolves? Of course not. Lucius of the Emperor's Children also talks a bunch of trash in the novels he's been in, but I wouldn't take him seriously as a character judge.


I wouldn't say he is the end all assessor of the primarches character but that does mean that Russ is viewed by some (in the fluff and out) as a lapdog to the Emp. Does it mean he is? Not necessarily but he definitely can be perceived as such because... well... he IS.



> Well then, congratulations. You seem to have skipped the bottom of the definitions list, though. But if you look at the common usage of the word, you'll find ...


No congratulations necessary. And I'm not sure why the other definitions were necessary as I blatantly said which definition I was using but is was nice to see the others I guess?



> Incidentally, I'm fairly sure Grins1878 was responding to your statement with a healthy amount of sarcasm. That is, he disgreed with your assertion that Primarchs were these obedient creatures. :wink:


I never claimed the Primarches were obedient. I specifically stated that several of them weren't? I said that Russ was and was backed up by basically everyone who posed in this thread that said he was unquestioningly obedient and that is what made him and his legion the ideal choice for the executioners. That would imply that the other legions, while still obedient were less so than Russ or else his loyalty would not be one of his defining characteristics and that aspect of his character would just blend with the other Primarches. Since it stood apart enough for it to be the general concensus of this thread then it had to be something special about him which, despite your list of definitions and what you think i ment still fits into the role as Lapdog. Lapdog is usualy used as a slight of someone but not always. It doesn't mean he is a bad primarch or bad character, it just means he is used for his role due to his unquestionable loyalty.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> In this case, what you're missing is the fact that Russ was a layered character: capable of terrible things, but also of caring for his declared enemy brother enough to try to avert violence - despite his orders; barbarian-like, blunt behavior, but also a degree of subtleness that fooled almost everyone who knew him.


I'm quite certain Russ only asked because he knew what Magnus's answer would be.

Also I must ask, what do you personally think the purpose was for the Emperor to implant wolf/similar-to wolf DNA into one Primarch but not the rest?


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## Diatribe1974 (Jul 15, 2010)

We is no lap dogs! We're vikings in power armour! We'll do whatever it takes that let's us not only win, but also fight if it's a good scrap. Period.


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## SonOfStan (Feb 20, 2011)

gen.ahab said:


> Have you read prospero burns? This is all wrong. lol :laugh:


I'm reading it for a second time, actually. Did I miss a part where Russ goes "OMMGGGGG DUMBEST IDEA EVAAAAAARrRRRRRR!!!111"? :threaten:

But naw seriously. If there's something there that directly disproves what I just said, I'll recognize my failing and be sure to correct it.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> I'm quite certain Russ only asked because he knew what Magnus's answer would be.
> 
> Also I must ask, what do you personally think the purpose was for the Emperor to implant wolf/similar-to wolf DNA into one Primarch but not the rest?


Hmmm I disagree, from that part I got the impression that Russ genuinely did not want to destroy Magnus and his Legion, despite everything. It was for me one of the best parts of the book.


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## Gree (Jun 13, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> Hmmm I disagree, from that part I got the impression that Russ genuinely did not want to destroy Magnus and his Legion, despite everything. It was for me one of the best parts of the book.


I never bought that really. If Russ really wanted to parley with Magnus he would have just sent a vox-message to the planet or sent a gunship of Wolves to talk things over. Why go the roundabout and unreliable way through Hawser?

I get that Russ though Hawser was a spy, but Russ of all people should know that the warp is unreliable and tricky at the best of times.. It's easier, quicker and more reliable to just open a vox-communication to the planet itself when they arrived in system. (And they've done that before in the Heresy series)

That's like me going up to someone and texting them when I'm right next to them.

It's not like Russ would have been in any danger of doing that, the Wolves themselves even note the planet's defenses were deactivated and the TS fleet was gone.

So either Russ was an idiot or he just made a half-assed attempt to talk to Magnus.


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## wolf sword (Jul 10, 2011)

for give my spelling please 
the reason why space wolves where choose to destroy other leigons was cause of there simple cunning ,savagery and being one of the most successful legions it made them the best choice also cause they always through them at the task at hand and not giveing up tell the job was done .

and side not russ lap dog no but attack dog yes Russ wast week willed it take more will to go do something you dont agree with than some you do if he had no will he would not of made him self the king of fenris but Russ was more of a attack dog than a lap dog


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

wolf sword said:


> for give my spelling please
> the reason why space wolves where choose to destroy other leigons was cause of there simple cunning ,savagery and being one of the most successful legions it made them the best choice also cause they always through them at the task at hand and not giveing up tell the job was done .
> 
> and side not russ lap dog no but attack dog yes Russ wast week willed it take more will to go do something you dont agree with than some you do if he had no will he would not of made him self the king of fenris but Russ was more of a attack dog than a lap dog


Savage yes. Cunning in their own way but not more so than some other legions (ie alpha legion, raven guard, etc). And I don't think any of the legions really "gave up" ever.

And i strongly disagree with your statement that it takes more will to do something you don't want to do when ordered by a superior. I'm not saying that it is wrong, because thats how the military works after all, you always follow orders, but i feel like if you strongly disagree with something and your convictions prevent you from doing it despite the repercussions you know will result from it (ie: dishonor, disciplinary actions ect...) then it says much more about your character then just doing the action in question.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Klaivex said:


> Savage yes. Cunning in their own way but not more so than some other legions (ie alpha legion, raven guard, etc). And I don't think any of the legions really "gave up" ever.
> 
> And i strongly disagree with your statement that it takes more will to do something you don't want to do when ordered by a superior. I'm not saying that it is wrong, because thats how the military works after all, you always follow orders, but i feel like if you strongly disagree with something and your convictions prevent you from doing it despite the repercussions you know will result from it (ie: dishonor, disciplinary actions ect...) then it says much more about your character then just doing the action in question.



They never thought they were doing the wrong thing. They were following the orders of the Allfather.


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> They never thought they were doing the wrong thing. They were following the orders of the Allfather.


I never said they did. I was just responding to that guys post. Other people on here have said they were conflicted though and really didn't want to kill their brothers but they did anyway. Other people said they wanted to just fight. I guess the truth is left to the interpretation of the individual.


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## ThatOtherGuy (Apr 13, 2010)

Just imagine the Imperial Fists being the Emperor's executioners instead of the wolves.

There battle cry: ITS FISTING TIME!


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## Klaivex (Dec 21, 2010)

ThatOtherGuy said:


> Just imagine the Imperial Fists being the Emperor's executioners instead of the wolves.
> 
> There battle cry: ITS FISTING TIME!


The Emperors Children would be knocking on the door of the Phalanx all the time.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> They never thought they were doing the wrong thing.




_‘You still don’t understand, skjald. I’m talking about degree. There are lines that other Legions will not cross. There are divides of honour and fealty and devotion. There are some acts so ruthless, some deeds so unpalatable, that only the Vlka Fenryka are capable of undertaking them. It’s what we were bred for. It’s the way we were designed. Without qualm or sentiment, without hesitation or whimsy. *We take pride in being the only Astartes who will never, under any circumstances, refuse to strike on the Allfather’s behalf, no matter what the target, no matter what the cause.’*_


_Prospero Burns_


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> _‘You still don’t understand, skjald. I’m talking about degree. There are lines that other Legions will not cross. There are divides of honour and fealty and devotion. There are some acts so ruthless, some deeds so unpalatable, that only the Vlka Fenryka are capable of undertaking them. It’s what we were bred for. It’s the way we were designed. Without qualm or sentiment, without hesitation or whimsy. *We take pride in being the only Astartes who will never, under any circumstances, refuse to strike on the Allfather’s behalf, no matter what the target, no matter what the cause.’*_
> 
> 
> _Prospero Burns_


I think you can safely go:

/flex

there Malus :so_happy:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> _‘You still don’t understand, skjald. I’m talking about degree. There are lines that other Legions will not cross. There are divides of honour and fealty and devotion. There are some acts so ruthless, some deeds so unpalatable, that only the Vlka Fenryka are capable of undertaking them. It’s what we were bred for. It’s the way we were designed. Without qualm or sentiment, without hesitation or whimsy. *We take pride in being the only Astartes who will never, under any circumstances, refuse to strike on the Allfather’s behalf, no matter what the target, no matter what the cause.’*_
> 
> 
> _Prospero Burns_


That doesn't do anything to say they thought they were doing the wrong thing. On the contrary, it seems they thought they were doing the right thing, simple that they they were willing to do something they thought was........ less than savory.



Klaivex said:


> I never said they did. I was just responding to that guys post. Other people on here have said they were conflicted though and really didn't want to kill their brothers but they did anyway. Other people said they wanted to just fight. I guess the truth is left to the interpretation of the individual.


Indeed, I was simply sleepy and misread what you said.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> That doesn't do anything to say they thought they were doing the wrong thing. On the contrary, it seems they thought they were doing the right thing, simple that they they were willing to do something they thought was........ less than savory.


Surely you don't think they were dancing around a fire-pit singing songs when they were told to invade Prospero do you?

Or the many other things the Emperor himself ordered them to do that the other legions would have found questionable?


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