# Loss of Veteran Skills for Chaos Marines in new codex



## rokassan (Jan 24, 2007)

Anyone have an Idea or theory as to why Chaos Marines will not have access to Vet skills in the new Chaos codex?Call me crazy but some of these guys have been around since the Heresy and your telling me they havent learned their battlefield craft well enought to gain vet skills.Are my Plague Marines brain dead.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

I think the reasoning behind it is that GW is aiming at taking the CSM away from the original nine Tratior Legions and focussing more on Renegades who have turned away from the Imperium since the Heresy. They don't seem to think it makes sense for the orginal Nine to still be a viable fighting force now since they have been around for 10,000 years

Which in my humble opinion doesn't make sense, I mean really are you trying to tell me that enough Space Marines are deserting the Imperuim and joining Chaos to justify such a shift in direction?, I mean with all the propoganda they put out about Space Marines being the most loyal and being so few?.

But hey thats just me. Hope that helps.


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## dakari-mane (Mar 9, 2007)

Have you actually read the codex?

Because if you havent how do you know?

Just wait.


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

rokassan said:


> Anyone have an Idea or theory as to why Chaos Marines will not have access to Vet skills in the new Chaos codex?Call me crazy but some of these guys have been around since the Heresy and your telling me they havent learned their battlefield craft well enought to gain vet skills.Are my Plague Marines brain dead.


it's a balancing trick... jervis mainly is tired of seeing the same old things used in pretty much every competitive list and especially, seeing the same things abused again and again! (such as an infiltrating statured prince w/d.speed)

also, there will now be a huge difference between basic chaos marines and the cult marines when they eventually get their own book.

cheers!


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## Jeridian (Jan 4, 2007)

I'll forgive Jervis his sins, if he totally screws Chaos like he did DA.

Yes, in some ways I'm a petty, vindictive bugger who's tired of Chaos being the most broken Codex out there.

Oh the wailing of Chaos players will be music to my ears- :twisted:


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## Elric of Melnibone (Feb 9, 2007)

experiment 626 said:


> (such as an infiltrating statured prince w/d.speed)
> 
> cheers!


Not sure you can have one of these 

:wink:


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## Elric of Melnibone (Feb 9, 2007)

Jeridian said:


> Yes, in some ways I'm a petty, vindictive bugger who's tired of Chaos being the most broken Codex out there.
> 
> Oh the wailing of Chaos players will be music to my ears- :twisted:


But before Chaos wasn't it Eldar.....and before that ??


:roll:


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## kelvingreen (May 15, 2007)

experiment 626 said:


> also, there will now be a huge difference between basic chaos marines and the cult marines when they eventually get their own book.


So there's going to be a Chaos Space Marine Codex, a Cult Space Marine Codex _and_ a Daemon Codex?


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

@dakari-mane: Stuff like that gets leaked from reliable sources and given out freely from Red/Blackshirts all the time. If your source is good you can pretty much bank on it being true. Most of the rumours off both DA and BA were right weren't they. So no, we don't know for sure, however theres a 95%+ chance that we are right. I'd take those odds.

@kelvingreen: Thats what the speculation is at the moment. Although the Daemon Codex might be mixed in the with the Cult books i.e. In a codex for Khorne and Nurgle they have both Cult troops - Berserkers, Plague Marines and the Deity Specific Deamons - Plague Bearers, Blood Letters etc.


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## experiment 626 (Apr 26, 2007)

kelvingreen said:


> So there's going to be a Chaos Space Marine Codex, a Cult Space Marine Codex _and_ a Daemon Codex?


according to gav thorpe, yes the idea is to eventually have 1 book for each cult army. (this is in a perfect world senario mind!)
this way, they can go into way more detail than ever about how and why each cult force fights, acts and thinks the way it does... more special characters and more hobby material as well as expanding each cult force to be truely unique other than say a bunch of guys with big axes in a khorne army.

cheers!


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## kelvingreen (May 15, 2007)

Interesting. I wonder if there'll be room for a non-Marine Chaos Cult army after all this, or whether that's just not economically viable for GW.


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## Greyskullscrusade (Jan 24, 2007)

That would be cool. I heard yesterday that there will be rules for the sons of huron/red corsairs; or whatever they call themselves now. STuff like that would be really cool, but it makes you wonder if they will have rules for bitter enemies:

space wolves/thousand sons
red corsairs/mantis warriors
ultramarines/black legion?

I know theres more, but my brain feels scrambled.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Here ya go. A summary of all the chaos rumours to date thanks to the gents on Warseer: 

Generic Points: 
- Daemon summoning to remain basically the same 
- All daemonic gifts are gone 
- most god specific wargear is gone 
- Veteran skill upgrades are gone 
- books of chaos are gone 
- no special rules for any specific legion 
- Marks/Icons work as follows Khorne +1A, Tzeentch 5+ invul save or +1 to existing invul save, Slaanesh +1I, Nurgle +1T. The units which can take them are identified as such below. 
- Daemon weapons are generic, simply give +1S and +D6 attacks, but if a 1 is rolled something bad happens 
- there may be "upgrades" to the basic daemon weapons for the 4 specific gods, but that is a discrepancy between 2 sources 
- daemonic steeds do exist, simply giving IC's which are given them stat bonuses. A juggernaught of Khorne gives the character +1S and +1A, but he takes up 2 spots in a land raider. Others include tzeentch discs, steeds of slaanesh, and nurgle palanquins 
- most troops come with a bolter, bolt pistol, ccw, and frag and krak grenades as standard (yes, all of those) 
- Rhinos reduced in points cost, as in the Dark Angels codex. 

NOTE: there are no cult units beyond those listed in the troops section. For example, the only plague marines are the "plague marines" unit entry in the troops section. You cannot take plague marine havocs or plague marine terminators. You can give terminators the mark of Nurgle, but they only gain +1T, they do not get FNP or blight grenades. This is true for all 4 gods. 

HQ 
Lord 
- comes with daemonic aura as standard 
- can be marked 

Sorcerer 
- can be marked, 
- there is one god specific psychic power for each god (except Khorne) and many of the existing psychic powers remain 
- new power 'warp time' allows re-rolls to hit and to wound in close combat 
- nurgles rot acts like a pandemic staff 
- bolt of change is AP1 

Daemon prince 
- may be marked 
- may have pychic powers 

Generic Greater Daemon 
- does not take HQ slot 
- does not fly 
- CANNOT be marked 

Typhus 
- has the nurgles rot power without a psychic test 
- has daemon weapon that is also a force weapon 

Abaddon 
-Talon/Drachn'yen now one weapon. Counts as a Daemon weapon (DW's are a generic weapon now, all grant +D6 attacks and +1S, but if a 1 is rolled you cannot attack) but it doubles his Strength and you can re-roll failed hits and wounds. 

Arihman 
- can use 3 psychic powers a turn including force staff 
- knows all the chaos psychic powers except the god-specific Slaanesh and Nurgle powers 

Kharn 
- more or less the same as he is in the current dex except: 
- gorechild has 2D6 penetration vs. vehicles 
- he's immune to all psychic powers. 
- WS 8? maybe? 

Lucious 

Fabius Bile 

Huron Blackheart 
-Tyrant's claw is a powerfist with built in heavy flamer. 
-Hamadyra grants him the "Warp Time" psychic power (WT allows you to re-roll all failed hits and wounds in HTH) 

ELITE 
Possessed 
- have a randomly generated ability (nothing, fleet, power weapons, furious charge, rending, feel no pain) 

Terminators 
- one reaper autocannon 
- may all be upgraded to aspiring champions with +1A 
- can be marked 
- squads can be 3+ models 

Chosen 
- only unit with infiltrate 
- can be marked 
- many options, a bit like DA's Veterans 

Dreadnoughts 
- may be given 2ccw 
- frenzy table still exists but is slightly changed 

TROOPS 
Chaos space marines 
- can be marked 
- min size need for some weapon upgrades 
- aspiring champion limited to basic wargear upgrades (PW, PF, PP) 

Khorne Beserkers 
- have the +1A over normal marines, WS5 and furious charge 
- no bloodfrenzy or chainaxes 

Plague Marines 
- +1T, blight grenades, feel no pain 

Noise Marines/Emperors children 
- +1I and access to sonic weapons 
- doomsiren AP3 
- blastmaster on max power is a small blast krak missile 

Thousand Sons 
- slow and purposeful on 1 dice 
- AP 3 bolters (inferno bolts) 
- 4+ invul save 
- only 1 wound 
- sorcerer sergeant with 2 psychic powers, but no power fist option, and allows 2d6 for slow and purposeful 

Generic Lesser Daemons 
- do not take up a troop slot 
- CANNOT take marks 

FAST ATTACK 
Raptors 
- no more hit and run 
- can be marked 
- price reduced 

Spawn 
- may be beasts/cavalry 
- do NOT take up a Fast Attack slot 

NO Daemon beast units 

Bikers 
- can be marked 

HEAVY SUPPORT 
Obliterators 
- CANNOT be marked (heard somewhere on the net, highly contested) 
- S and T 4 
- no longer 0-1 
- possibly lose power fists for power weapons (contested) 
- possibly only access energy weapons, not ballistic weapons (ie lascannons but not bolters) 

Vindicator 
- currently highly contested between two sources 

Land Raider 

Predator 

Defiler 
- no more indirect fire 
- WS3 
- can trade in some of its shooting weapons for more CCW having up to 6A 
- can be given fleet (probably it will be a default upgrade) 

Havocs 
- Can be marked


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## The Deserter (May 28, 2007)

Ummm. I want to get a thousand sons army. Should i wait untill the new chaos codex comes out? Does anyone know when it comes out in Australia? If anyone has any advice on thousand sons go to my new topic in army lists "thousand sons army need advice!" please help me!


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## The Deserter (May 28, 2007)

P.S I hope the rumor about thousand sons only having one wound is NOT true. That would really piss me off! :evil:


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## Hespithe (Dec 26, 2006)

It most likely is true, though I'm not too happy about it in my own way. Still, the advantages listed may be more than enough recompense if the army really does play to the background GW has given previously. 

I'm wondering just how viable a Daemon/Dustwing will be now... I do so love the concept of the army, but the rumors seem to indicate that the idea is now defunct.


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## Greyskullscrusade (Jan 24, 2007)

So, no more daemon squads?

EDIT: I read that wrong,sorry


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Elric of Melnibone said:


> experiment 626 said:
> 
> 
> > (such as an infiltrating statured prince w/d.speed)
> ...


No you cannot. 

Rumours right now are that there will only be 2 codices to come out, Codex: Chaos Space Marines and Codex: Latd/Deamons. Cult lists are a -possibility- right now, no more.


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## rokassan (Jan 24, 2007)

So what Ive gathered here is as Chaos players we gain a few new abilities and loose a lot more.The 31 Plague bearers and Greater Demon of Nurgle I painted are more or less a wasted effort as Demons will be boring and generic.My Plague Marines are no longer capable of learing and are unable to aquire Veteran skills and cant get Demonic gifts for the leadership.There will be no more indirect fire with Defilers(Chaos has no other indirect fire weapon),we've lost most of our wargear and demon weapons and possesed are a crapshoot if you use them as they can randomly end up with some useless power you dont need. And this change is supposed to accomplish what.....accomidating 12 year olds? Ive noticed I feel like Im back in elementary school when go to the hobbyshop to play.


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

You got it in one, great aye


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## Greyskullscrusade (Jan 24, 2007)

Defilers shouldnt of been indirect in the first place. But, my question is, if generic daemons are used....then a plaguebearer, daemonette, bloodletter and whatever tzeench has will all cost the same and have the same stats/equipment?

lame.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

That is the way it looks yes.


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## ThunderBolt (May 30, 2007)

if daemons are generic how wil it have been a waste painting up your great unclean one and plaguebearers. sure they wont get the nurgle related stuff but they are still perfectly useable. its not like they have been done away with completely and are now obselete.


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## kelvingreen (May 15, 2007)

No, and the second Chaos Codex (whenever it arrives) will presumably include rules for the different daemon types. Also, if you're playing friendly games, there's nothing stopping you using the existing statlines.


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## matty570 (Jun 14, 2007)

experiment 626 said:


> rokassan said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone have an Idea or theory as to why Chaos Marines will not have access to Vet skills in the new Chaos codex?Call me crazy but some of these guys have been around since the Heresy and your telling me they havent learned their battlefield craft well enought to gain vet skills.Are my Plague Marines brain dead.
> ...


You cant infiltrate a monstrous creature


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