# Mech Guard, the new lame



## LKHERO (Nov 24, 2010)

Call me old school, but I've seen power gamers pick up and play army books through the editions (since 3rd). 

Now that 5th Ed. IG is in the full swing, I can't help but feel a a hint of disgust every time I see a fully mechanized Guard army loaded with Vets.

It's the same feeling of disgust I felt at Nidzilla, Tau Suit spam and Dual Lash when things were really bad and transports were a death trap. Guard have been out for how long now? And how many codexii have come out afterwards? With the new GK around the corner, I can't but feel that no matter what book comes out afterwards Mech Guard will continue to dominate till next edition. That was the case with 7th Ed. Fantasy Daemons and this is the case now with 40K.

Shit's getting pretty stale, but I'm pretty sure the reason why we see the extreme lame lists like RB spam is because of IG. They're pretty much the only question you have to ask yourself if you enter in any tournaments: Can this beat IG? If so, sign me up.

Discuss.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

Mech Guard doesn't dominate, though. You've got something of a false premise there. A well balanced list from a modern codex can compete just fine with Guard. Is it a solid, modern list build on a 5th ed codex? Yes. Does it work? Yes. Build your list right and you can stomp it, however.

It isn't lame. It's how some of us enjoy the game. We try to do the best we can, expect the other guy to do the same, and enjoy the struggle itself.

I like what fifth ed has done and I like the builds we're seeing from modern codices.

They aren't dominating, they just happen to be a viable and solid build in the game as it stands.


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## LKHERO (Nov 24, 2010)

Cyklown said:


> Mech Guard doesn't dominate, though. You've got something of a false premise there. A well balanced list from a modern codex can compete just fine with Guard. Is it a solid, modern list build on a 5th ed codex? Yes. Does it work? Yes. Build your list right and you can stomp it, however.
> 
> It isn't lame. It's how some of us enjoy the game. We try to do the best we can, expect the other guy to do the same, and enjoy the struggle itself.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree.

They are by far the most powerful book. I know Guard players who transferred to 5th Ed. with the same list and saved 700 points to buy more tanks and more Vets.

And by dominate, I mean a book that single-handily changed the meta, much like Dual Lash in 4th and why we don't see any footslogging lists anymore.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Mech guard really isn't that hard to deal with. Most 5th Ed codices can deal with it perfectly fine.


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## misinformed (Mar 29, 2010)

I personally found the transition to 5th edition as a negative for IG. Not because it is overpowered (which I don't agree with), but because it was written with only mech in mind. I miss a lot of the options that were previously available, and I hope they release a new cattachan codex (even though I have always been a cadian player). 

With the current version, you should have a fairly good idea what IG players are going to bring to a tournament. That alone should be enough to help you, and a strong player will always beat a weak player. Now if two equal players faced off and the dice rolls were exactly average, then maybe we could debate it. However, not even then really... It would take for every army to face every other army with equal players and a consistent level of average dice rolls before you could really throw weight behind calling any army broken.

There will always be a "rock-paper-scissor" factor to the game. By which I mean, some armies are more capable of handling other armies. However, by no means is one army the best at handling all armies. I would also argue the armies most capable of making a potent all around list, still have some major weaknesses. We all know the current answers to ever list out there because of this. The real key is making the judgment calls on how much of what do I really need to counter that. Moreover, how much is too much versus the risk of not taking enough.

Just my two cents.


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## LKHERO (Nov 24, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> Mech guard really isn't that hard to deal with. Most 5th Ed codices can deal with it perfectly fine.


These 1-liners don't really do it for me. Can you explain a little better?

So it's to my understanding that you don't think the IG book is powerful and that every army can take a balance list and beat a mech IG list. Or do you need a min-maxed RB spam to deal with it?

Dealing with it, is quite a general and meaningless statement.


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Mech Guard have been out for, what 2 years...that's plenty of time to figure out how to to better them. In my area there's maybe 20/30 regulars who play Mech Guard (and other varients) and they are competitive, but no more so than the SW/BA lists etc.

Also, just because people are playing Mech IG lists doesn't make them all power gamers...some of them have been playing IG for many many years, and going Mech is just one varient.

You're a GK player (so am I)...there's plenty of talk going around many Forums on the Web right now that certain rumoured builds will be the new cheese...so maybe get ready to defend their new Codex once it hits, as it is a 5th Ed one like the last 3/4, IG included.

You made a comment about there been no footslogging IG lists anymore...not true at all. There's always some popping up in the armylists Forum, plus I know a few guys on here who field them all the time, plus all 12/15 regulars I play against (me included) can and do field Infantry-heavy lists.


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## LKHERO (Nov 24, 2010)

> You made a comment about there been no footslogging IG lists anymore...not true at all. There's always some popping up in the armylists Forum, plus I know a few guys on here who field them all the time, plus all 12/15 regulars I play against (me included) can and do field Infantry-heavy lists.


No, I was referring to what 4th Ed. Dual Lash CSM did to the meta, and why there's rarely any foot lists anymore because such a list still exists.

Let me open up the discussion with a more argumentative description.

Mech Guard is very competitive, and in my opinion, the most competitive army in 40K right now. It completely changes the metagame and dominates what type of army lists are fielded in most tournaments. If you've ever played in a tournament, you normally design your army list to fight a certain metagame. The current 5th Ed. Metagame is (and this is a brief layout): TWC Wolves, RB Spam Wolf or Angels, Mech Guard, Dual Lash and insert some random local metagame stuff here.

Do I think Guard is a good book? Yes and No. Yes in the fact that it can make the most min-maxed options that kick ass in a certain meta, and no because more than half the book is crap. The reason is because Guard has a lot of options but not many of them are good. The good ones, however, are underpriced, have great stats and you can field a lot of them.

Could this be what GW intended? Probably not. But who cares, the average cost of a 2000 Mech Guard army is up the roof and people will buy X netlist from X discount retailer and roll face all day. I have played with and against Mech Guard. I have tasted the IG codex and I'm not impressed. I'm impressed by the power that it produces, but I'm not impressed with the simplicity it takes to play a army that can shoot well, deliver crushing and powerful salvos turn after turn, and remain relatively safe behind their AV12+ wall.

Back in 4th I saw a lot of foot Guard lists with a relatively few number of tanks. Maybe like 4-5. Only the Steel Legion players spammed their Chimeras and even so, it was within the sanity boundaries because you can only field so many of them. Now, everything got a discount and Veterans with BS4 were made troops. Vendettas and Valks are also extremely good for the points and Marbo for 65 points makes Lictors look like mental defuncts.

The list goes on, but it goes without saying that competitive IG (not IG as a whole) is an extremely powerful book. Now for those players who remember the days where Nidzilla and Lash shaped the metagame, I dare you guys to argue differently. 5th Ed. Mech Guard has changed the metagame more so than any other book I've seen thus far. They've also set the tone for the current edition and that's if you want to win, you bring equal or greater firepower or lose and die. This is the trend I'm seeing in 5th Ed. and it's not going to change in the near future.

Keep this going please, but with slightly greater and more elaborate refutes.


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## Elemental_elf (Mar 12, 2008)

Mech Guard CAN be quite powerful, especially for armies that are geared for assault and have to run across the board (Nids and Orks) or who come on the board but have to wait a turn to assault (Daemons). 

IG are definitely in the top 3 right now but I think the cost of making a top-tier IG list, the amount of models you have to build and paint and the amount of time it takes to complete a turn as well as basic transportation needs are some of the major issues as to why we don't see Guard being played more at the big tournies. Why bring such a large army when you can just play Marines and their 40 or so models? On top of all of that, most high end tournies have unique/special missions that have a tendency to favor particular armies over others. Beyond that the abundance (or lack there of) of terrain at high end tournies can really help or harm Mech IG's chances. There's a lot of variables that people don't think about when they see the top results for s given tournament. 

At any rate, Mech Guard is not an unstoppable force of doom but it does take some strategy to beat. This is doubly true if you tend to only play Marines, as many people are, since Mech IG is a totally different ball game. I know the first time I faced a the new IG book, my opponent used a Chimera spam list and had something like 13 Chimeras and 2 Hell Hounds. My eldar, who had been crafted to beat Marines, simply did not have the volume of fire to get through both the Chimeras and the Guardsmen. So there can be quite the culture shock the first time you play them. 

Honestly, the best way to beat Guard is to bring a well balanced list.


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

There isn't a meta. Go play magic for a couple of years and you'll understand what a metagame is.

Some things work better. Vehicles do, and there are weapons that suppress vehicles well while dealing with infantry competently. As such, autocannons are popular.

A balanced list does fine any any fifth edition codex can handle guard, mech or otherwise. Razorspam and the like are taken because they're good, not because it's "needed" for one specific list. People like to make lists that are well balanced, powerful lists. You're seeing those lists because we'd rather play a good game than half ass it.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

LKHERO said:


> No, I was referring to what 4th Ed. Dual Lash CSM did to the meta, and why there's rarely any foot lists anymore because such a list still exists.


Foot lists aren't as popular anymore because the most recent codices have transports that are rather low priced, it has nothing to do with a dual lash csm.




> Mech Guard is very competitive, and in my opinion, the most competitive army in 40K right now. It completely changes the metagame and dominates what type of army lists are fielded in most tournaments. If you've ever played in a tournament, you normally design your army list to fight a certain metagame. The current 5th Ed. Metagame is (and this is a brief layout): TWC Wolves, RB Spam Wolf or Angels, Mech Guard, Dual Lash and insert some random local metagame stuff here.


I wouldn't say Mech guard dominates the "meta" game right now, but rather Mech itself is dominating the "meta" game. There are other lists (TWC, BA Jumper/Sang guard, Loganwing, Tau Hybrid, Sm Bikers, and any Nid army to name a few) but Mech armies tend to be more numerous for what ever reason you pick (Easier to collect/purchase/play, whatever you come up with).



> Do I think Guard is a good book? Yes and No. Yes in the fact that it can make the most min-maxed options that kick ass in a certain meta, and no because more than half the book is crap. The reason is because Guard has a lot of options but not many of them are good. The good ones, however, are underpriced, have great stats and you can field a lot of them.


I agree with most of what you've said here, so I've got nothing to add.



> Could this be what GW intended? Probably not. But who cares, the average cost of a 2000 Mech Guard army is up the roof and people will buy X netlist from X discount retailer and roll face all day. I have played with and against Mech Guard. I have tasted the IG codex and I'm not impressed. I'm impressed by the power that it produces, but I'm not impressed with the simplicity it takes to play a army that can shoot well, deliver crushing and powerful salvos turn after turn, and remain relatively safe behind their AV12+ wall.


GW is only now trying to build codices that seem to be geared towards real competitive play. Before 5th edition the books were built with more of the hobby and fluff in mind rather then competitive game balance. They're still learning the best ways to do that.

As to the simplicity of the codex, it sounds like the inability of players to beat it is the short coming of the player not the power of the codex.



> Back in 4th I saw a lot of foot Guard lists with a relatively few number of tanks. Maybe like 4-5. Only the Steel Legion players spammed their Chimeras and even so, it was within the sanity boundaries because you can only field so many of them. Now, everything got a discount and Veterans with BS4 were made troops. Vendettas and Valks are also extremely good for the points and Marbo for 65 points makes Lictors look like mental defuncts.


So aspects of the codex were improved to allow for more tanks, I'm not seeing the problem with that as IG are supposed to have a lot of tanks. With most armies having methods of dealing with tanks (cheap melta, MCs) and quick and (relatively) safer methods to get in and deliver it it's not the end of the world.



> The list goes on, but it goes without saying that competitive IG (not IG as a whole) is an extremely powerful book. Now for those players who remember the days where Nidzilla and Lash shaped the metagame, I dare you guys to argue differently. 5th Ed. Mech Guard has changed the metagame more so than any other book I've seen thus far. They've also set the tone for the current edition and that's if you want to win, you bring equal or greater firepower or lose and die. This is the trend I'm seeing in 5th Ed. and it's not going to change in the near future.


It's no more powerful then SW and only (very) slightly more powerful than any other 5th edition codex. Your sole argument seems to be "ZOMG THEY GOTZ TANKZ!!1!" but all 5th ed armies have methods of dealing with that. The only codices that have real trouble with it is going to be the older codices (like GKs) that weren't built with 5th (or 4th) edition rules in mind.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

LKHERO said:


> These 1-liners don't really do it for me. Can you explain a little better?
> 
> So it's to my understanding that you don't think the IG book is powerful and that every army can take a balance list and beat a mech IG list. Or do you need a min-maxed RB spam to deal with it?
> 
> Dealing with it, is quite a general and meaningless statement.


ML spam, podding melta death squads( particularly loganwing because it can then eat their faces off), lance spam(or so I hear, but really don't trust it for the most part), razorspam(ALL marines dexes) and anything that can get across the table quickly including TWC armies or something of that nature although to less of a degree. Hordes can do it *fairly* well too. Really, anything that can get close quickly will kick the crap out of chemi-spam.


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

LKHERO, troll be trollin?

as a guard player, mech guard is FAR from unbeatable. you are a fool for thinking so (or the same for any build).
now before you go calling me a bad general, i dont run mech guard, a buddy of mine does and has a roughly 50/50 win/loss ratio.

the pure fact that that you have never beaten mech ig is either you havent thought about it long enough, or your opponent is genuinely a bad general.


/thread


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## davidmumma66 (May 11, 2010)

My 2 cents. Mech Guard isn't un beatable, but some of the players who run them are obnoxious power gamers. For example at my FLGS a Mech Guard player offered to play me and he asks what army I play so I told him I ran fluff Death Wing, so he said okay, he pulls out his lists makes some changes, like changes all his lee-man Russ to executioners, swaps out the magnetized rocket pods on his valkryies to change them to vendettas, and he took out some of his vetran squads to make the points meet. So I'm there thinking, what a douche, because this was before the FAQ so my list was far from competitive as it was. I mean I could understand some minor list tweaking, but I think he carried a bit way to far. I played him anyway, and needless to say several tanks all firing multiple ap 2 blasts at me, combined with multiple 3 twin linked las cannons it kinda writes itself. I'm used to people taking extra plasma guns to help out, but really, in a friendly pick up game making that many changes to his list. I digress. But most lists that aren't overly thematic can deal with tanks pretty easily, Chaos can use deep strinking combi melta termies, or outlfanking chosen in a rhino, SM with the las razor back, nids with MC, etc. Its not un-beatable, just a difficult list, and some annoying people running it who give it a bad name for those people who run it because they just like the way it plays.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

Well i would think any army that could field alot of Anti-tank would have a good chance against mech. 

I would have also thought mech geared lists would be at a disadvantage later in the game anyway against heavy AT equipped armys(and we all know that it can be done melta spam), after a couple of tanks and transports have been taken out and the troops become vulnerable to concentrated fire. 

I have seen a few times a mech guard list lose to a foot slogging sm or csm list so its not that powerful, i suppose its how you play, but no list is uber powerful it just takes the right list and tactic to win.

And im sorry but this sounds to me like another thread about moaning how "i cant win against a certain army cause they have an UBER UNBEATABLE list" instead of asking the best way to beat a list like that or asking why they are so prominent.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

My last game against Guard with my Orks (sadly only my second game against Guard) at Throne of Skulls saw me taking on an airborne list. My heart sank when I saw my opponent putting those Valkyries on the table, yet he told me that in the previous game he'd been tabled. Emboldened by this I carried on, taking out three of his valkyries with a fourth going down after failing a difficult terrain test.

I'm certain I could have won if I'd had more boyz in the list, but then again I've never even read a list that had fifteen tanks on the table, let alone actually played one.


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## LKHERO (Nov 24, 2010)

> the pure fact that that you have never beaten mech ig is either you havent thought about it long enough, or your opponent is genuinely a bad general.


Your reading comprehension is as bad as your grammar. Please show me where I said I have never beaten Mech Guard.



> And im sorry but this sounds to me like another thread about moaning how "i cant win against a certain army cause they have an UBER UNBEATABLE list" instead of asking the best way to beat a list like that or asking why they are so prominent.


No, that's what I'm getting at all.
Before we continue, we have to agree on one thing:

Is the IG codex capable of building very competitive and powerful army lists? If you don't agree with this, we don't need to continue with this argument. If you do, then we can talk about why they're powerful. I gave my reasons for why they're powerful; they have access to plenty of armor, BS4 scoring Vets, solid weapon choices and spammable AP1-3, Marbo and others with Demo charges, Vendettas and Valks, ... the list goes on.



> It's no more powerful then SW and only (very) slightly more powerful than any other 5th edition codex. Your sole argument seems to be "ZOMG THEY GOTZ TANKZ!!1!" but all 5th ed armies have methods of dealing with that. The only codices that have real trouble with it is going to be the older codices (like GKs) that weren't built with 5th (or 4th) edition rules in mind.


SW is powerful because they're a solid codex, in every sense of the word. Their units are well priced, their options are many (Wolfwing, Drop Pods, RB Spam, TWC, mass Grey Hunters..etc), and their units are just good.

Look at the type of lists that place high in tournaments. What kind of lists do we see? Commonly, we see TWC, Mech IG and Razorback spam. Boring as fuck? I'd say so.

And that brings us to the point of this thread. I think Mech Guard is lame, not because I think they're unbeatable (I dare any of you to find where I said this), but because it's easy to play, easy to design and shits on 90% of the opposition.

Check out this article:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/02/40k-editorial-stop-imperial-guard-hate.html

I agree with the following statements:



> AbdullahOblongata 1 day ago
> I can tell you why, as a guard player and a guard hater... yes, both!
> 
> Guard lists went from masses of bodies, lots of tanks... what a guard army is supposed to be to super elite, all vets in transports, only the best of the best vehicles.
> ...





> bigoafno1 1 day ago
> Awww, u mad, bro? It's not that someone out there made a list that everyone copied. It's that someone out there made a list that every idiot who couldn't win a game with any other army copied, never bothered to paint (or in some cases assemble) the models and proceeded to at least tie genuinely good players that spend time and effort planning. It allows rejects who would otherwise get tabled on turn four to go to tournaments and place against people who would otherwise run circles around them. And they'll do it with unpainted models, further displaying their outright contempt for this game as a hobby.
> 
> I don't hate guard. I hate guard players.





> Notanoob 1 day ago
> People hate guard because they're too good and too easy. Anyone with enough money can get easy wins or at least ties with most builds of IG. Heck, so long as you stay away from a few LR varients and the elites slot, you're almost garenteed a good list.
> 
> People hate you for people who min-max with chimera/melta vets.
> ...


I despise RB spammers and TWC + Herohammer players too in addition to Mech IG. I refuse to play against such lists because I think they're unimaginative, boring and smells of netlisting and ebay'd armies.

I'm trying to find out who here feels the same way.


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## Snake40000 (Jan 11, 2010)

We need a rants section because this is all this will ever be. I have faced mech armies and usually win you know why? Simple dip shit i know some basic strategy. Its called melta spam or what ever your race has to kill big things on wheels! Stop preaching and go jerk off a grey knight.


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## LKHERO (Nov 24, 2010)

Snake40000 said:


> We need a rants section because this is all this will ever be. I have faced mech armies and usually win you know why? Simple dip shit i know some basic strategy. Its called melta spam or what ever your race has to kill big things on wheels! Stop preaching and go jerk off a grey knight.


Quality post.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

HOBO said:


> but no more so than the SW/BA lists etc.


Aka, no more so than any other army that can spam Armor value.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

the-ad-man said:


> LKHERO, troll be trollin?
> 
> as a guard player, mech guard is FAR from unbeatable. you are a fool for thinking so (or the same for any build).
> now before you go calling me a bad general, i dont run mech guard, a buddy of mine does and has a roughly 50/50 win/loss ratio.
> ...


You didn't read a single thing that the OP said. He said that if you wanted to be able to perform in a tournament, you would have to spec your list to be able to fight IG specifically which is ridiculous.

/post


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

LKHERO said:


>


Learn to beat it, quit whining. "CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.

The fact that you decry Dual Lash (easily shut down with minimal psychic defense/transports/firepower) and Nidzilla (is that even around anymore?!) pretty much invalidates anything else your gargantuan posts might say IMHO.

BTW, I was playing Mech IG before Mech IG was cool. Back when we paid out the ass for a Chimera, and loved it!


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

DeathKlokk said:


> Learn to beat it, quit whining. "CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.
> 
> The fact that you decry Dual Lash (easily shut down with minimal psychic defense/transports/firepower) and Nidzilla (is that even around anymore?!) pretty much invalidates anything else your gargantuan posts might say IMHO.
> 
> BTW, I was playing Mech IG before Mech IG was cool. Back when we paid out the ass for a Chimera, and loved it!


I'm really not getting what you people are all over this poor guy's balls for?

You'd have to be an idiot to say that mech ig isn't top tier meaning it could beat any opponent at any time.

He was saying that Dual lash was powerful back in 4th ed, and nidzilla in past tense. I seriously think that everyone in this thread should go back and give the OP a read and chill out a bit.

Seriously, just admit it. All you guys just read the thread title and then responded.


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## davidmumma66 (May 11, 2010)

Eleven said:


> I'm really not getting what you people are all over this poor guy's balls for?
> 
> You'd have to be an idiot to say that mech ig isn't top tier meaning it could beat any opponent at any time.
> 
> ...


Quality post. Because I do have to agree with OP, Mech Guard gets boring. So do most of the Min/Max or Spam lists do. I don't think win at all costs should the motive for non tourney games.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

If you start a thread with:



> I can't but feel that no matter what book comes out afterwards Mech Guard will continue to dominate till next edition.


It's not much of a stretch to think you're complaining about how guard are over powered. You might not have said you never beat a mech IG list, but it is implied. We all agree it's a "powerful" codex but it's not dominating the game and making every other codex obsolete. 



LKHERO said:


> Is the IG codex capable of building very competitive and powerful army lists? If you don't agree with this, we don't need to continue with this argument. If you do, then we can talk about why they're powerful. I gave my reasons for why they're powerful; they have access to plenty of armor, BS4 scoring Vets, solid weapon choices and spammable AP1-3, Marbo and others with Demo charges, Vendettas and Valks, ... the list goes on.


We've all agreed to that so I'm not sure what you're getting at.



> SW is powerful because they're a solid codex, in every sense of the word. Their units are well priced, their options are many (Wolfwing, Drop Pods, RB Spam, TWC, mass Grey Hunters..etc), and their units are just good.


Which would make SW the most "powerful" codex out there, as almost every unit is strong. No one is disagreeing with you on this.



> Look at the type of lists that place high in tournaments. What kind of lists do we see? Commonly, we see TWC, Mech IG and Razorback spam. Boring as fuck? I'd say so.
> 
> And that brings us to the point of this thread. I think Mech Guard is lame, not because I think they're unbeatable (I dare any of you to find where I said this), but because it's easy to play, easy to design and shits on 90% of the opposition.


Except a good player knows their way around the strengths of a mech IG list. A good player also runs a balanced list and is able to beat said list.

and shits on 90% of the opposition? Please, just because some people use this to noobslay doesn't make it the "god" of lists.



> Check out this article:
> http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/02/40k-editorial-stop-imperial-guard-hate.html


I don't understand why this article was linked. It really doesn't say anything beyond "These IG haters can't stand to see IG on the move."



> I despise RB spammers and TWC + Herohammer players too in addition to Mech IG. I refuse to play against such lists because I think they're unimaginative, boring and smells of netlisting and ebay'd armies.
> 
> I'm trying to find out who here feels the same way.


See I've never got the mentality of hating people who take good builds. 

How is one list better just because it takes a non optimized unit? Are you special now because you've had some creativity by taking units that don't work well together, are over cost, don't work with your army (taking Vulkan with no TH and Melta) or just plain suck? No you are not.



Eleven said:


> I'm really not getting what you people are all over this poor guy's balls for?
> 
> You'd have to be an idiot to say that mech ig isn't top tier meaning it could beat any opponent at any time.
> 
> ...


We're "getting on this guys balls" because he's making the claim that Mech IG is THE build to beat in 5th edition and it is not. He cites the "meta game" as evidence but plenty of people still win at tournaments (what passes for them anyway) and games with CSM, Hybrid Tau, Nids, SW, SM, and BA. His evidence is weak and we want more.

Secondly, the OP said 



> Discuss


which is what we are doing. Just because we disagree with the OP doesn't mean we didn't read it.


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## davidmumma66 (May 11, 2010)

I get what he's saying and to a less extreme extent I agree, I don't hate all those common builds, It just gets dull and old playing the same lists over and over. Sure I don't have a winning record, but I've had some great times playing with lists that aren't TWC or Mech Guard, it doesn't make me a bad general because I use armies built to have fun not necessarily win, at the end of the day, I think the OP is just ranting about how annoying over used/power gaming lists get in a friendly game environment.


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

I don't mind the play style of mech. It's keeping up with all the goddamn prices to buy every bipedal critter in my force it's own personal tank to delay it's death for a turn that pisses me off.


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## Cyleune (Nov 10, 2010)

I play Mech Guard myself and plenty of times have I gotten my ass handed to me. Enemy really just has to penetrate Av14, which compared to a lot of AA guns in the game now isn't all too hard. I also play armies that are supposedly suck in 5th ed (i.e. Eldar) and have handed out ass-kickings to Mech Guard armies.

You just gotta know how to deal with one thing at a time and how to organize unit priority, , kill the Leman Russ, and the rest is cake.


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## davidmumma66 (May 11, 2010)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> I don't mind the play style of mech. It's keeping up with all the goddamn prices to buy every bipedal critter in my force it's own personal tank to delay it's death for a turn that pisses me off.


Even then its not so much I mind mech lists, I mean for the most part I can handle them with the updated cyclone missile launcher, or bolt of change etc. its just it gets old to see the same Chimera spams, and razor back spams. I mean creative mech lists are good and all, but its a real shame when all the armies start to look exactly the same and only the paint and poses change. I mean anyone one can do okay with these kinda builds, I mean how wrong could you really go with a TWC list. Thats what bothers me, at some point competitive lists all start to look the same. Thats fine and all at tournaments, but I wish more people at places like FLGS would put down the power gaming lists and pick up a fun army, and build a list around a unit that looks cool, or you like its special rule, not "OMGZYS GUYZ MAH TANK SPAM PWNS YOU n00b".


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)

I hear you there. That's probably why I've generally -tried- to keep transports to a minimum in most of my armies. I think the only time I've ever gone all out with vehicles was one tournament where you literally had to cross over a dozen boards before 5 turns was over.

And it paid off quite well as my Tau were the only force to escape, let alone practically all of them.:biggrin:


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## LKHERO (Nov 24, 2010)

DeathKlokk said:


> Learn to beat it, quit whining. "CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.
> 
> The fact that you decry Dual Lash (easily shut down with minimal psychic defense/transports/firepower) and Nidzilla (is that even around anymore?!) pretty much invalidates anything else your gargantuan posts might say IMHO.
> 
> BTW, I was playing Mech IG before Mech IG was cool. Back when we paid out the ass for a Chimera, and loved it!


I was recommended to this gaming forum because I was told it had quality gamers that offer quality posts, unlike shitseer and dakka. I was wrong.

All I see so far is people that can't fucking read, including you. I was referring to Dual Lash and Nidzilla back in 4th, if you read the FIRST post, you would understand.



> We've all agreed to that so I'm not sure what you're getting at.


We all? Have you been following this thread? Plenty of your fellow posters disagree. Apparently admitting Guard is powerful is a hard and that I'm whining because I'm stating the obvious.

It's been a pretty laughable discussion so far. I'm not too impressed.


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## Initiate (Mar 25, 2007)

C'Tan Chimera said:


> I think the only time I've ever gone all out with vehicles was one tournament where you literally had to cross over a dozen boards before 5 turns was over.


Sounds like a fun mission.


Anyways, I agree with davidmumma. Chimera spam feels like a snooze fest to me, which is why I went one step further to valk spam. I get my ass handed to me all the time, but the look on my opponents face when I put 6 valks and 2 vendettas on the table is absolutely priceless. I enjoy the game for its fluff and for the romanticized combat (termy libby facing off against bloodletters, etc).

That being said, I am not going to hate someone because they want to win. It is simply atrocious to say that people who play mech guard are not creative, or do not care for the hobby. 

Assuming mech guard are at the height of 5th edition meta game (something I am not an expert in), did you expect that no one would play it? The nature of warfare is to adapt your strategies so you can achieve victory. In Ancient Greece, hoplites were the norm, everyone was deployed in a phalanx. In the 18th century it was line infantry. In WWI, it was trench warfare. Every edition of 40k, another build will present itself as the ideal build. Just because you came up with the list doesn't mean no one else should use it, or that only a select few can use it. In fact, if everyone plays the same thing, that is when tactics come into play, and games become suspenseful.

Moreover, there is a reason you do not see unusual builds at tournaments. The people who are in the hobby for the other aspects of the game (myself included) and are the types to build unusual lists for the sake of having cool models and whatnot, don't usually participate in tournaments. The builds that _are_ present are the cream of the crop so they rise to the top, and that is how the world works.

Just looking at it from a non-gamer's standpoint.


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

I think there are power builds for every codex. But obviously they are not all at the same level. For instance maybe mech guard is a better power build than dual lash and so on. Unfortunately, due to the game being played with dice and various personal experiences, I don't think there will every be a unanimous decision on the rankings of all the power builds out there.

So OP, some people will agree with you and some will disagree with you. However I will say that some power lists are markedly better than some "well balanced" lists. That doesn't mean that the balanced list can't win the game. However it does mean that if both players are both equally proficient tacticians and they each have exactly average dice rolls, the power list will win. But that's what it was meant to do.

That being said, mech guard is a good list because it was meant to be a good list. Is it the best power build in 5th edition? Who knows. My thought however is that winning games comes down to more than the list. As an example, my 2500 point CSM army includes raptors and chaos dreadnoughts. Both of which are considered crap by many players. However, I like them in my list. My list therefore is far from being a power build, but I do consider it to be well balanced. As of yet, I have not lost with it and have only tied once. Its gone up against SM bikers, DE raider rush, and TWC. I do consider myself to be a pretty good general and I find that its the tactical decisions of my playing that win me games rather than my actual list being better. 

So really the only thing you can do if you are not a power gamer is to learn how to beat power gamers. Since your list is not as good as theirs, your tactical skills will have to be better. 

It's like playing chess with a few less pieces

Just consider it more of a challenge


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

Space Wolves are infinitely better than mech IG. Boold Angels have tons of potential counters to mech in general. Bugs and DE eat through AV10 side armor fairly quickly, and the squishy centers even quicker.

This thread still feels like a whinefest to me. It's been a long time since I feared an IG army or seen one taking a trophy home.

I'm not sure what you're wanting here besides full agreement.


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## Iron_Freak220 (Nov 8, 2009)

DeathKlokk said:


> I'm not sure what you're wanting here besides full agreement.


Attention?


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

LKHERO said:


> We all? Have you been following this thread? Plenty of your fellow posters disagree. Apparently admitting Guard is powerful is a hard and that I'm whining because I'm stating the obvious.
> 
> It's been a pretty laughable discussion so far. I'm not too impressed.


People have been saying IG is a powerful codex (the first response in this thread was saying that IG is a powerful codex), what people haven't agreed on is that mech IG is this be all end all power build you seem to make it out to be. I'll even link a few responses:



Cyklown said:


> Mech Guard doesn't dominate, though. You've got something of a false premise there. A well balanced list from a modern codex can compete just fine with Guard. Is it a solid, modern list build on a 5th ed codex? Yes. Does it work? Yes. Build your list right and you can stomp it, however.





HOBO said:


> Mech Guard have been out for, what 2 years...that's plenty of time to figure out how to to better them. In my area there's maybe 20/30 regulars who play Mech Guard (and other varients) and they are competitive, but no more so than the SW/BA lists etc.





Elemental_elf said:


> Mech Guard CAN be quite powerful, especially for armies that are geared for assault and have to run across the board (Nids and Orks) or who come on the board but have to wait a turn to assault (Daemons).
> 
> IG are definitely in the top 3 right now but I think the cost of making a top-tier IG list, the amount of models you have to build and paint and the amount of time it takes to complete a turn as well as basic transportation needs are some of the major issues as...


All of those are from the first page. They all make mention of IG being good solid builds, but they do not agree on IG being "Be all end all" when it comes to army lists.

People are making good points, but your method of refuting them is to say:



LKHERO said:


> Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree.
> 
> They are by far the most powerful book. I know Guard players who transferred to 5th Ed. with the same list and saved 700 points to buy more tanks and more Vets.


You seem to just want us to all tell you "Yes LK, Mech guard is the best." It's not. Mech IG is beatable, just like Logan Wing, SM Bikers, Jumper BA, TWC, Mech SM, ML SW and whatever other 5th ed builds you want me to run off.

You think the arguments presented against you are laughable, I think your argument is laughable. You present an opinion, then when it is refuted by another opinion you make the claim that the new opinion is wrong. There is no evidence presented here that Mech IG is the top tier list you claim it to be.

For the record I agree that the IG codex is at the top of the codex power charts, right there with SW. I feel they are pretty much equal, but they are not vastly more powerful then BA, SM, and Nids.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

When I start seeing guard taking out 1st, 2nd and 3rd in every tournament, them I might give this some more thought. Currently though guard gets the expected number of placings for such a popular army.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Cyklown said:


> There isn't a meta. Go play magic for a couple of years and you'll understand what a metagame is.


I would just point out you've failed to understand what a meta game is, learn it again.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

LKHERO said:


> Is the IG codex capable of building very competitive and powerful army lists? If you don't agree with this, we don't need to continue with this argument. If you do, then we can talk about why they're powerful. I gave my reasons for why they're powerful; they have access to plenty of armor, BS4 scoring Vets, solid weapon choices and spammable AP1-3, Marbo and others with Demo charges, Vendettas and Valks, ... the list goes on.


Hmm sounds abit like Marines doesnt it?


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## Whitehorn (Dec 17, 2009)

I love threads like this. I never place well in tourneys with my Mech Guard. Perhaps I face armies geared against it, or I just suck at using them?

In my last tournament I played against:
Mech guard (won)
SW ML spam (close, but lost)
CD (lost)


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

LKHERO said:


> Your reading comprehension is as bad as your grammar. Please show me where I said I have never beaten Mech Guard.
> 
> 
> 
> No, that's what I'm getting at all.





Eleven said:


> You didn't read a single thing that the OP said. He said that if you wanted to be able to perform in a tournament, you would have to spec your list to be able to fight IG specifically which is ridiculous.
> 
> /post


ok, perhaps i did skim read the op, and for that i apologise. sorry

now ive re-read it and i still smell a troll 
now, you dont have to gear towards beating a mech guard list to beat them, as stated before a well balanced list will more often than not beat most things including mech ig. 
i wont disagree that the ig codex is powerful, most if not all the units in the codex are worth their weight in points, doesnt make it broken/overpowered (ive heard it being called this before, elsewhere) it just makes it competitive by its very nature, which an uncompetitive list will struggle against.

mech ig is deffinately an imposing sight to see, but you have to remember that more often than not the hightest AV will be 12. although its not the paper that trukks are made of, its also not the end-all of armour that landraiders are famous for. i dont think there is an army that has any lacking of str6/7+ weapons/creatures. chimera will only ever be a problem if you are severly lacking in any sort of firepower above a heavy bolter or they pop smoke.


at the end of the day the most elite list will crumble before an imcompetant general. rather than look on the internet for the most killy list by some bloke, write your own list, really think about it and take the time to understand it, be critical about any list you write, yes it may smoosh a mech ig army, but i'd wager it wouldnt have the number of shots/attckas to deal with an ork horde.


so in short, no i dont agree with you, but hopefuly you now understand why i dont agree with you.
also heresy is a brilliant forum for people that come here with a mature question, rather than 'mech ig is the only REAL threat there is these days! whos with me!? RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!' which is the gereral feel of your op, intended or not.

good day sirs


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

LKHERO said:


> I was recommended to this gaming forum because I was told it had quality gamers that offer quality posts, unlike shitseer and dakka. I was wrong.


Ooh, nasty. Seriously though, click the link in my sig. It sounds like you're at a level where you're probably not going to benefit a whole lot from forums anymore (at least as far as tactics advice goes). 3++ (the site linked in my signature) can probably give you the kind of discussion that you're looking for.



> We all? Have you been following this thread? Plenty of your fellow posters disagree. Apparently admitting Guard is powerful is a hard and that I'm whining because I'm stating the obvious.


Nobody isn't admitting that Guard are powerful. People aren't admitting that Guard has single-handedly altered the metagame of 5th edition because... well, because it didn't actually happen. Yes sure, after Nick or whatever his name is won 'Ard Boyz with the infamous (and laughably inefficient) Leafblower a couple years ago Mech Guard became all the rage. But I bet if Grey Knights win this year's Ard Boyz that list will be insanely popular too.



> It's been a pretty laughable discussion so far. I'm not too impressed.


Then leave? I mean... that just seems sort of obvious to me.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

I would advise not bothering with Kirby's blog if you value your eyes, it's horrific. 

He does offer some good advice though, mixed in with some awful advice and some good insights into the game mixed with fundamental misunderstanding. So like every site really. But luckily he's like 40K Jesus or some such shit so he cannot be wrong EVER.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

Wusword77 said:


> We're "getting on this guys balls" because he's making the claim that Mech IG is THE build to beat in 5th edition and it is not. He cites the "meta game" as evidence but plenty of people still win at tournaments (what passes for them anyway) and games with CSM, Hybrid Tau, Nids, SW, SM, and BA. His evidence is weak and we want more.
> 
> Secondly, the OP said
> 
> ...


All your lines here are a complete load.

OP was told to "Quit whining and learn to beat it." That's not discussion, that's an insult, no two ways about it.

And also you are wrong. Mech guard definitely effects the meta game. Basically, you need to know that you have enough anti horde to take out any one of the many horde armies, and that you have enough anti mech to specifically deal with IG.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Eleven said:


> and that you have enough anti mech to specifically deal with IG.


Or... you know. Any mech list. Hence it not being Guard specifically that has effected the meta.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Eleven said:


> All your lines here are a complete load.
> 
> OP was told to "Quit whining and learn to beat it." That's not discussion, that's an insult, no two ways about it.


1 poster said that, not everybody, 1 guy. Then you have all the other lines of people making the claim that while Guard is powerful it has not single handedly changed the meta game. That would be the start of a discussion if the OP didn't jump back in with "I disagree so you're wrong."



> And also you are wrong. Mech guard definitely effects the meta game. Basically, you need to know that you have enough anti horde to take out any one of the many horde armies, and that you have enough anti mech to specifically deal with IG.


Where is this idea that only IG use mech coming from?

You are aware people were running Mech SM in 5th before they were running Mech IG right? It's a pretty solid build, people still use it. If you want a build that made mech a big part of the Meta game you don't have to look any further then that.

Or did mech armies not come around till Leafblower?

Mech has been stated as good from the start of 5th edition, after GW updated the VDC. You need to get over this idea that Leafblower was the start of mech being a good build.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Aramoro said:


> I would advise not bothering with Kirby's blog if you value your eyes, it's horrific.
> 
> He does offer some good advice though, mixed in with some awful advice and some good insights into the game mixed with fundamental misunderstanding. So like every site really. But luckily he's like 40K Jesus or some such shit so he cannot be wrong EVER.


You jelly, Armororororo?


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## davidmumma66 (May 11, 2010)

[rant] Come on guys, really, you all just keep taking turns bashing the OP for the most part, sure its poor wording, and its far from un-beatable. But I think for the most part, regular chimera spam IG just gets flat out boring. Win or lose, the way that chimera spam armies work, they just aren't that fun to play against. Not to say there aren't the occasional players who use the build because they enjoy the play style, but all these min/max lists get just repetitive, its all who can fit the most armored boxes with ap 1-3 spam inside. I don't hate these people, and I play against them all the time, and I fair okay considering I'm playing with lists that are based around units I like more than effectiveness. I guess in a tournament I could see everyone using these same old lists, but when you go to your local GW and you see everyones using these kinds of lists against you in a friendly game, it just gets pretty old. I guess thats what I'm really going on about, Mech lists just get old, and their pretty boring the way that most people use them (Now if you been playing steel legion style guard for a long time thats fine, its all the people who started mech guard because they just want to win not have fun.) [\rant]


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## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> I would advise not bothering with Kirby's blog if you value your eyes, it's horrific.
> 
> He does offer some good advice though, mixed in with some awful advice and some good insights into the game mixed with fundamental misunderstanding. So like every site really. But luckily he's like 40K Jesus or some such shit so he cannot be wrong EVER.


w00t I'm like Jesus. *ponders the implications*

Please share these fundamental misunderstandings.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

davidmumma66 said:


> [rant](Now if you been playing steel legion style guard for a long time thats fine, its all the people who started mech guard because they just want to win not have fun.) [rant]


Speaking of fundamental misunderstandings...

Some people have fun winning games. So by taking powerful lists they _are having fun_. If you find that you don't enjoy games against Mech Guard, don't play against them. Your opponents are under no obligation to take armies that you enjoy playing against.


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## davidmumma66 (May 11, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> Speaking of fundamental misunderstandings...
> 
> Some people have fun winning games. So by taking powerful lists they _are having fun_. If you find that you don't enjoy games against Mech Guard, don't play against them. Your opponents are under no obligation to take armies that you enjoy playing against.


I'll give you that point, but winning at all costs shouldn't be the point of a game.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

davidmumma66 said:


> I'll give you that point, but winning at all costs shouldn't be the point of a game.


Well you can't really apply the WAAC label to someone unless they're literally willing to try anything to win - including cheating, bending rules, fudging measurements and so on.

Sounds to me like he's just a competitive player that likes to use powerful armies. That you find his army boring really isn't his or anyone else's problem.


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## LKHERO (Nov 24, 2010)

Kirby said:


> w00t I'm like Jesus. *ponders the implications*
> 
> Please share these fundamental misunderstandings.


Me and Kirby are actually blogger buddies. We're cool like that.

But no, more seriously, I just felt like posting a thread on why I think Mech IG are boring and stale to play against. They're powerful, they're NOT unbeatable, but they're just boring aka lame.

Call me oldschool, but I think the game's more fun when balanced armies fight against balanced armies :so_happy:


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

LKHERO said:


> Call me oldschool, but I think the game's more fun when balanced armies fight against balanced armies :so_happy:


I dunno, I feel like Guard _are_ balanced, because they can deal with any foe. Imbalanced lists (at least to me) are the ones that can run train on one sort of list/unit type and fall down hard against others. I think what you mean is that you enjoy armies with a more varied mix of units fighting one another which is perfectly reasonable.


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## davidmumma66 (May 11, 2010)

I get lists like that one on a tournament level play, but in a friendly environment pick up game it just gets old




LKHERO said:


> They're powerful, they're NOT unbeatable, but they're just boring aka lame.
> 
> Call me oldschool, but I think the game's more fun when balanced armies fight against balanced armies :so_happy:


That is what I pretty much agree with


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

davidmumma66 said:


> I get lists like that one on a tournament level play, but in a friendly environment pick up game it just gets old


So do you feel that he should buy units for a second list that he can use in friendlies?


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## davidmumma66 (May 11, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> So do you feel that he should buy units for a second list that he can use in friendlies?


If he can afford too, then yes. I mean its a game, I guess I want to play for fun, not everyone has that mentality, so I guess ultimately, even though I tend to fair okay against these lists, it would be nice to see variety of builds. Thats just me though.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

davidmumma66 said:


> If he can afford too, then yes. I mean its a game, I guess I want to play for fun, not everyone has that mentality, so I guess ultimately, even though I tend to fair okay against these lists, it would be nice to see variety of builds. Thats just me though.


So then, you'd prefer that your opponents spent their hard earned money on units that they don't necessarily want instead of taking responsibility for your own fun.

I see.


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## unxpekted22 (Apr 7, 2009)

is this seriously another thread about people shouldnt play to win or whatever? GAH!


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## TheAbominableDan (Sep 16, 2010)

I've been handling my own against Mech Guard pretty well. I got stomped by them in my game yesterday but I came back after a first turn in which I lost a bunch of my stuff and didn't kill a single model. In the end it looked bad but I fought it out.

I find the squads more troubling when they're not in transports. When they get out and the orders start flying around they chew me up a bit better.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

> Call me oldschool, but I think the game's more fun when balanced armies fight against balanced armies


So, the game is more fun when played by your perception of what the game should be?

Welcome to the club. EVERYBODY thinks that. It's just that we all have different definitions of a _balanced_ list.

I find games more fun with my balanced list against an imbalanced one. "HA! look at your all Termy list die to my footdar Guardian spam! Weeee, FUN!"

Really, if it doesn't win any more people will stop playing because it wins. Learn to beat it, beat them, then wait for them to grow and learn another way to play.


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## the-ad-man (Jan 22, 2010)

@LKHERO: if you find this army build boring....play someone else?


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> You jelly, Armororororo?


I think you mean 










But no. Just an observation. I read his site from time to time until the navigation and eye hurting design makes me stop. Some interesting stuff, some boring stuff. It is less eye gougingly awful than Steleks site though so that's something.


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## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

^ waiting for my flawed fundamentals please.


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## Grins1878 (May 10, 2010)

davidmumma66 said:


> I'll give you that point, but winning at all costs shouldn't be the point of a game.


I've poisoned people's drinks before games, added laxatives to their dinner the evening prior, even ran down the opponent's relatives so they cancel and I win by default. 

Nothing should stop me winning. 

Sadly I lose regularly, but I don't mind. So long as my Shokk Attack manages to beam something pricey off the pitch my work is done ;-)


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Aramoro said:


> I think you mean
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you mean:


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## LKHERO (Nov 24, 2010)

Kirby said:


> ^ waiting for my flawed fundamentals please.


You're a blogger, so obviously you have a higher opinion than everyone else.

Tis the internets.

Edit: lol, I have -1 reputation because someone didn't like this thread. pro forum.


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## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

LKHERO said:


> You're a blogger, so obviously you have a higher opinion than everyone else.
> 
> Tis the internets.
> 
> Edit: lol, I have -1 reputation because someone didn't like this thread. pro forum.


Lol don't get me started on that; besides my opinion of myself and of my opinion was always high to begin with . 

I'd love to see what arararooo thinks my fundamental misunderstandings are though.


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## davidmumma66 (May 11, 2010)

Grins1878 said:


> I've poisoned people's drinks before games, added laxatives to their dinner the evening prior, even ran down the opponent's relatives so they cancel and I win by default.
> 
> Nothing should stop me winning.
> 
> Sadly I lose regularly, but I don't mind. So long as my Shokk Attack manages to beam something pricey off the pitch my work is done ;-)


:laugh: Thats a good one actually, personally, people should play to win in tournaments or other competitive settings. But yeah you got the right idea for friendly games as long as my Death Wing went down in blazing glory I considered it a good day




LKHERO said:


> You're a blogger, so obviously you have a higher opinion than everyone else.
> 
> Tis the internets.
> 
> Edit: lol, I have -1 reputation because someone didn't like this thread. pro forum.


I kinda agree with this thread so have some +rep. Pro Forum indeed good sir.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Kirby said:


> Lol don't get me started on that; besides my opinion of myself and of my opinion was always high to begin with .
> 
> I'd love to see what arararooo thinks my fundamental misunderstandings are though.


Your blog would be the appropriate area to address these things. 

I know spelling is hard for you but my name it right there, just to the left, it's not that tough to spell.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Aramoro said:


> Your blog would be the appropriate area to address these things.
> 
> I know spelling is hard for you but my name it right there, just to the left, it's not that tough to spell.


Oh snap. Kirby vs. Aramaro - place your bets!


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## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> Your blog would be the appropriate area to address these things.
> 
> I know spelling is hard for you but my name it right there, just to the left, it's not that tough to spell.


I expect an email shortly then so I can address them.

It is difficult, I mean I live in convict country but what can I say. Petnames, no one really gets them anymore .


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Oh snap. Kirby vs. Aramaro - place your bets!


I was going for not make it a thread like that. Like I say a lot of blog is decent so of it less so. It is all however eye bleedingly awful to look at, unless it's designed that way to stop people becoming addicted to looking at it? 

It was more a comment on how communities raise certain members to elevated positions to the point people believe anything they say unquestioningly. You must see this Katie what you say is less relevant than who you are in many posts, some people will always agree with you no matter what and other will always disagree with you no matter what. It's the nature of communities like this.



> I expect an email shortly then so I can address them.


I will attempt to navigate you structures and post on them if you like


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## Kirby (May 16, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> I was going for not make it a thread like that. Like I say a lot of blog is decent so of it less so. It is all however eye bleedingly awful to look at, unless it's designed that way to stop people becoming addicted to looking at it?
> 
> It was more a comment on how communities raise certain members to elevated positions to the point people believe anything they say unquestioningly. You must see this Katie what you say is less relevant than who you are in many posts, some people will always agree with you no matter what and other will always disagree with you no matter what. It's the nature of communities like this.


I don't want a flame war either but I'd love to actually see what you think some of my false assumptions are so I can address them. The chatbawks is addictive; note the site. And since the overhaul, well iirc the approval rate for the site layout was 91% so maybe you see in a different spectrum to everyone else?

I do agree with the 'elevated position' however. I much prefer discussion or informed agreement rather than consumption and spitting it back out at people. I think this is less of a problem with 3++ than say YTTH but that's based on the differences of style and personal taste between us. I really dislike sycophants though.

Edit: to the ninja edit;

an e-mail is easier if possible please.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Aramoro said:


> I was going for not make it a thread like that.






> It was more a comment on how communities raise certain members to elevated positions to the point people believe anything they say unquestioningly. You must see this Katie what you say is less relevant than who you are in many posts, some people will always agree with you no matter what and other will always disagree with you no matter what. It's the nature of communities like this.


To an extent, sure. I look forward to seeing you guys chat, Aromara.


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## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Hmm, excellent maturity levels on display here. I agree with the OP in some ways, and disagree with others. It would be nice if 80% of the people who posted here actually read the OP and his clarifications later in the thread and then thought about it before replying.

That said, I would love to see someone come up with a list apart from the two I mention later that can beat:

3 Vendettas with Vets
6 Hydras
Melta-Vets in Chims to full points
1800pts

Because that's what won my last local tourney and as an Eldar/Dark Eldar/Marine player I can't think of a single "balanced" list I could build that could actually handle it. About the only thing that would have a chance that I can see is Long Fang spam going first and Jumper BA from the FnP and VV assaults on stationary vehicles/melta. Which basically proves that SW and BA are on a par with Guard and everyone else can go spit.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

DeathKlokk said:


> Learn to beat it, quit whining. "CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.


still don't get how you can be ill-prepared to fight cliches and uneffective choices.


Eleven said:


> You'd have to be an idiot to say that mech ig isn't top tier meaning it could beat any opponent at any time.


1: tiers don't exist
2: yes they could, if your army has no balnce on long, medium and short ranged anti tank weapons, you have no idea how to use terrain properly and your force only has a handful of troops (so thats most of these marine mech armies)
otherwise if you have a balanced force with plenty of ranged and close range medium to high str weapons, lots of cover to form bottlenecks and enough troops to survive barrages of chimera fire and lasguns you should have very few problems beating a 1 dimensional list.

personally I'd have a harder time against a guard force with a mix of everything than a spam of 1 thing, its why BA razorback5manassaultsquad spam is so fucking easy to beat


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Kirby said:


> I don't want a flame war either but I'd love to actually see what you think some of my false assumptions are so I can address them. The chatbawks is addictive; note the site. And since the overhaul, well iirc the approval rate for the site layout was 91% so maybe you see in a different spectrum to everyone else?


Since the overhaul it has improved a lot but you still have a number of issues regarding colouring and site design and layout. It reminds me strangely of the IBM website which is so unfathomable they don't send you links to resources but rather send you screenshots with circled links to click on which might take you where you want to go. You're obviously constrained to what you can do within a blogspot though. 




Kirby said:


> I do agree with the 'elevated position' however. I much prefer discussion or informed agreement rather than consumption and spitting it back out at people. I think this is less of a problem with 3++ than say YTTH but that's based on the differences of style and personal taste between us. I really dislike sycophants though.


Discussion is the preferred medium where points can be made and arguments reasoned. But this is the internet, with no tone or inflection, so they rapidly descend into argument sadly when sycophants weigh. But what can you do eh.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> 1: tiers don't exist


Tiers do exist, it's fairly obvious that they do. I never understand why you argue that they do not.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Aramoro said:


> Tiers do exist, it's fairly obvious that they do. I never understand why you argue that they do not.


because its a retarded concept made up by people to make the army they have chosen more justified by slapping a bigger dong on it.
tiers are bullshit, they imply that the higher up the ladder you go the more automated your force basically is, that a tier 1 codex could basically win without even rolling dice over a tier 50 (or whatever bullshit level they go as low as) codex, then when that tier 1 codex loses repeatedly to said lower tier force its always invalid because it wasn't done in some swiss tournie under a solar eclipse while the player did a rain dance and sacrificed a goat to Zeus.

plus if these high tier books were so awesome why do people only suggest a small amount of builds with them?, BA have there assault squad razorspam (which is piss easy to beat so how did that get to any tier?), SW have long fang spam, marines have vulkan spam etc etc etc
surely a high tier codex should be awesome no matter what you take?, thats the whole point of it being so high on an imaginery tier system, that its so good it can be used to build anything and still be awesome, not be limited to 1 or 2 builds per codex to have any chance of winning.

tiers are bullshit.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> because its a retarded concept made up by people to make the army they have chosen more justified by slapping a bigger dong on it.
> tiers are bullshit, they imply that the higher up the ladder you go the more automated your force basically is, that a tier 1 codex could basically win without even rolling dice over a tier 50 (or whatever bullshit level they go as low as) codex, then when that tier 1 codex loses repeatedly to said lower tier force its always invalid because it wasn't done in some swiss tournie under a solar eclipse while the player did a rain dance and sacrificed a goat to Zeus.
> 
> tiers are bullshit.


Just because you do not like them or understand them does not mean they do not exist. Space Wolf codex is just better than the Necron one, the lists it produces are simply higher tier than Necron lists. Tiers help you understand the competitive environment and help you play the meta-game more effectively.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Aramoro said:


> Space Wolf codex is just better than the Necron one


because of age, not because of some magical tier concept, and why is it automatically better?, did someone sit there and play 2000 games of necrons VS space wolves to get a list of results that placed the value of one codex above the other and then did that with every single codex, every single unit, every single build 2000 times each to get a result to place every codex on these tiers?

if not, then is it not just a load of bullshit made up by players?

you would have to have a massive tourny of thousands of equally skilled players with an equal amount of players for each codex GW does and have them fight each codex an equal number of times to get a tier system even started.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> because of age, not because of some magical tier concept, and why is it automatically better?, did someone sit there and play 2000 games of necrons VS space wolves to get a list of results that placed the value of one codex above the other and then did that with every single codex, every single unit, every single build 2000 times each to get a result to place every codex on these tiers?
> 
> if not, then is it not just a load of bullshit made up by players?
> 
> you would have to have a massive tourny of thousands of equally skilled players with an equal amount of players for each codex GW does and have them fight each codex an equal number of times to get a tier system even started.


Like I said if you don't understand it, don't talk about it. It doesn't matter WHY the Space Wolf Codex is better than the Necron one, it just is. But it's also important to note that it's the style of lists which make the tiers not the Codex's themselves. 

It is it made up by the players? Yes, yes it is, that's rather the whole point of it.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Aramoro said:


> It is it made up by the players? Yes, yes it is, that's rather the whole point of it.


so there is no actual precise method or thought put into tiers, it is just "this one is better because we said so".

so I was right, bullshit.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

Stella Cadente said:


> so there is no actual precise method or thought put into tiers, it is just "this one is better because we said so".
> 
> so I was right, bullshit.


Of course it's not precise, it's notional tiering. Are you really trying to say that no list is plain better than another list in the hands of equal players? If you are then you really are more dense than I gave you credit for. Then again if you're not then you agree tiers do exist within the game.

They're bullshit to you because you don't care about them, thats super but no one cares what you care about Stella. Some people like to think about the relative power of various Codex's and lists. So what? it has no effect on your life. I could I could say that everyone who like anime is a filthy pedo but that doesn't actually make it true, and nor is what you are saying.


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## Jackinator (Nov 18, 2008)

Mech armies have been around for a long time, with the upgrade from 4th to 5th edition, the majority of mech armies became more common. The cheapness and new resilience of transport vehicles was the reason for this. But some armies it's been one of the most effective ways to play for a long time. Eldar for example, can be very effective in other builds, but mech builds are (arguably) the most effective. I've seen some extremely effective Space Marine Mech Builds and even the odd Tau mech build.

5th edition made all mech armies more effective, I've found that to build a list with a lot of anti-tank is a safe way to go. Lists with lots of anti-tank can take on mech and meq, most anti-tank weapons being ap1, 2 or 3. Then if you're a good enough player/list writer you can handle other builds on top of that. I don't even design my lists for anti-mech and I've had no problem with wiping the floor with them every time I've faced them.

Yes, guard are a top tier list, but as far as I'm concerned, when all the codexes are updated there shouldn't be any tiers, there may be, but there shouldn't, it contradicts the idea of game balance when you have to be a better player with an army to beat someone with another codex, yes some codexes will be marginally more powerful or easier to pick up and play. But accessibility is all part of the hobby, we want more people to start playing (yes I know that 11 and 12 year old players can be annoying) but they are the lifeblood of warhammer. There will always be a core of vets but it's the younger ones that go in and drop £200 of their parents money at once that really produce the profits.

It does get boring facing the same army over and over again, but once people get the hang of beating them or a new codex comes out they'll die out and become less common. I wouldn't worry about it and posting on here is essentially a rant as it isn't really going to achieve anything. If you'd asked for tips on how to beat them fair enough, but otherwise...:scratchhead:

Sorry Stella, but I think tiers do exist, they shouldn't but they do. It's just a fact that some codexes are more effective/easier to play than others. Yes "lower tier" codexes are capable of wiping the floor with people but it usually takes a more skilled player to do so. For example, Grey Knights are considered lower tier because of things like points costs, they pay more points for the same thing. Their transports are all 20pts more expensive (land raider excepted), their dreadnoughts are still in the heavy support option, and with the exception of Landraiders and meltagun stormtroopers, they don't have all that much access to anti-tank weaponry. They can be very effective if played well, but regardless they are still very much a lower tier list. There is no precise method, it's simply an idea of balance, grey knights vs blood angels, with two equally skilled players, odds on, the Blood Angels would win because they have a more recent, more effective codex, it's not a matter of statistics, it's a matter of game balance and this will happen with every edition as each updated codex will be an improvement on the previous one (in theory) and therefore more effective (in theory, assuming the previous one wasn't overpowered). Oh and the idea of "this one being better because we said so", the we is thousands of players believing that one codex is less effective, it's nowhere near as short sighted or arrogant as you are making it out to be.

Just my opinion


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## jaws900 (May 26, 2010)

I hat ethe fact that armys consist of entirly veterans in general. i wouldn't have as many problems with mech guard if they used Infantry squads or something. The vets are supposed to hardy soilders who have lastered a long time. Now every guard army has a million of them. Makes no freakign sence!!!!


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## misinformed (Mar 29, 2010)

Just when I thought this thread was dead...

As far as veterans being more abundant, I agree, but that is how the codex is. If you want small squads, they have to be vets or penal. Platoons are huge and can cost a substantial amount depending on what they are equipped with. Really, at that point the complaint turns into that you are fighting a heavy number foot list. 

Keep in mind that one platoon can consist of up to 153 troops (between maxing each choice and commissars) and still only count as one troop choice. Points aside, most people don't have enough guardsmen to provide that (or the lesser amount to have two troop choices of platoons). It is just easier and equally effective to go veteran 10 man squads and use the points elsewhere.

All of that aside though, maybe this will help you from a fluff standpoint. The average lifespan of an imperial guardsmen is 15 minutes. There is a pretty interesting book about that actually. With this in mind, those squads and squads of veterans that you see, probably only have 16 minutes of combat experience.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> so there is no actual precise method or thought put into tiers, it is just "this one is better because we said so".
> 
> so I was right, bullshit.


So there is no tier system in 40k but by your own words the Space Wolf codex is better then the Necron codex.



Stella Cadente said:


> because of age, not because of some magical tier concept, and why is it automatically better?


:dunno: I don't get it, either SW is a more powerful codex then Crons or it's not.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Wusword77 said:


> So there is no tier system in 40k but by your own words the Space Wolf codex is better then the Necron codex.


and I said that when?, I never said the wolf codex was better than any codex.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Stella Cadente said:


> because of age, not because of some magical tier concept,


I think you did.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Katie Drake said:


> I think you did.


badly worded maybe, but if you applied common sense and logic to what I...oh wait, nevermind thats too hard for you.

tiers = bollocks
space wolves = not better by default
happy now you nitpicky asses


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Stella Cadente said:


> badly worded maybe, but if you applied common sense and logic to what I...oh wait, nevermind thats too hard for you.


Considering it's not just me that wasn't sure what you were saying, maybe the fault is with you. Just sayin'.



> tiers = bollocks
> space wolves = not better by default
> happy now you nitpicky asses


Hahaha. Oh dear, Stella's been made to look silly and now he's mad. Someone wanna take a picture?


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Stella Cadente said:


> badly worded maybe, but if you applied common sense and logic to what I...oh wait, nevermind thats too hard for you.
> 
> tiers = bollocks
> space wolves = not better by default
> happy now you nitpicky asses


If you applied logic you would understand a tier system, I guess that makes us even.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Katie Drake said:


> Considering it's not just me that wasn't sure what you were saying, maybe the fault is with you. Just sayin'.


2 people being unsure, 1 of which is never sure about anything I say just to be difficult, yeah I'll stick to what I said, plus considering nobody would give a flying fuck about what I said under normal circumstances I give a fuck even less


Katie Drake said:


> Hahaha. Oh dear, Stella's been made to look silly and now he's mad. Someone wanna take a picture?


you'd be wasting your time since I don't feel silly, so haha *middle fingers*
so go piss about with someone who gives a shit (cus I never have given a shit about what you've ever said...ever) and carry on with the fucking topic which nobody really gives a shit about anymore


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Stella Cadente said:


> *butthurt*


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

So, like, Stella is willing to admit that some codices, largely due to age/the edition they were made for, are better than others, and some are decidedly worse than the mid-line. He just dislikes the term "tiers".

Well, that's as close as we're going to get to consensus, etc. Let's chalk this one up and move on.


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## Ellis Dee (Feb 26, 2009)

this went from one dumb argument to another
while completely off topic
all because of some veteran squads


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## C'Tan Chimera (Aug 16, 2008)




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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Dark Eldar is newer than IG, SW, and BA, yet for the life of me, even with Proxy lists, the game comes down to luck rather than skill on my part if I win, whereas, my opponent can just sit happy and dictate the game, due to their list choice, whereas having to employ more tactics than Rhino Rush objective, and nix the closest/most relative dangerous threat, is both more fun, and more challenging.

IG lists running 4 Melta Vet Squads in Chimera's with Turret S6/S7 Multi shot weapons rape DEldar flyer lists, and are quick enough to avoid footslogging Beast lists, while Scourge lists don't have the hitting power. It's a simple Rock, Paper, Scissors, and while I don't actally play DEldar other than proxy, I don't get enough practise, whereas the Biker Marines I have are the rock to the SW/BA/IG scissors, excluding chance or stupidity on my part.


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## Vanchet (Feb 28, 2008)

They're not hard to fight-It helps I went an beatened several Mech lists with my BA and sometime given time I''m cert I'll be able to win gainst them with a standard marine list


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

Pssssh, Mech Guard. Fireprism and Falcon spam. As well as a bright lance grav platfom. And a Wraithlord (S10, 2D6 AP). Nomnomnom.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Alsojames said:


> Pssssh, Mech Guard. Fireprism and Falcon spam. As well as a bright lance grav platfom. And a Wraithlord (S10, 2D6 AP). Nomnomnom.


=/

Wraithlols? Seriously?


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

oh dear you've done it now james, you mentioned wraithlords and now the vultures are coming in to pick at scraps and lord over us all and go into wild bullshit like speeches about how how crap they are because swiss people don't use them.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Stella Cadente said:


> oh dear you've done it now james, you mentioned wraithlords and now the vultures are coming in to pick at scraps and lord over us all and go into wild bullshit like speeches about how how crap they are because swiss people don't use them.


:blush: I wuv u. <3

Seriously though, I had to raise my eyebrow at the mention of Wraithlols since they're not really overly adept when it comes to busting open armor, especially in close combat. S10 and Monstrous Creature status is nice, but with only 2-3 Attacks it can be really hard to crack anything armored (especially since people tend to move quickly to avoid being hit easily). They're also fairly expensive when equipped with a bright lance and/or Eldar Missile Launcher.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Katie Drake said:


> :blush: I wuv u. <3


everyone does secretly


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Stella Cadente said:


> everyone does secretly


It's true. If I PM'd you my number, would you call me?


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

Katie Drake said:


> It's true. If I PM'd you my number, would you call me?


with BT prices?, are you mad


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## Cyklown (Feb 8, 2010)

lawl. This is why we should all start using Skype. Although, mind you, having every call be routed through the Netherlands would be downright magical in it's own way.


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## connor (Jan 31, 2011)

Well, i this one guy at my game shop who plays standard space marines has been talking about how he is going to play guard next. honestly, its slightly annoying having to deal with him saying to me "ooo Connor you gotta be running a bunch of Chimeltavets(chimera with veterans with melta guns) thats the only way true guard should be played, ooo gagaga." 

i mean yeah if thats the way you whant to play go for it but gosh darn leave me out of it, i prefer to use more flaver to my army, makes it more fun.


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## Alsojames (Oct 25, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> Seriously though, I had to raise my eyebrow at the mention of Wraithlols since they're not really overly adept when it comes to busting open armor, especially in close combat. S10 and Monstrous Creature status is nice, but with only 2-3 Attacks it can be really hard to crack anything armored (especially since people tend to move quickly to avoid being hit easily). They're also fairly expensive when equipped with a bright lance and/or Eldar Missile Launcher.


Hey I've done it before. Several times in fact. Also it's fun to watch him declare his shooting phase with his 20-something unit of Guardsmen, declaring at least one has to go through, then realizing (waaay too late) that he can't do anything.

Still, I saved my dar Reapers and Guardians from certain doom, first taking out a sentinel (pssh) an then a Leman Russ 2turns later. The look on his face was priceless. I love Wraithlords,especially asgainst footsloggers.

Back on topic: I still like using Fire Prisms (need to build my second one to round out my 1500 list, probly replace my Wraithlord with it) and I pwn IG.


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## inigo montoya (Feb 1, 2009)

Cyklown said:


> There isn't a meta. Go play magic for a couple of years and you'll understand what a metagame is.


While I agree with most of what you say, I strongly disagree with this. 

I live in Lafayette, Indiana - an hour north of Indianapolis and 2 hours south of Chicago.

I play competitively in all three regions. There is absolutley a meta in each locale, and I know to build my list to reflect the city the tournament is in. Is it as prolific as M:Tg? Nope. Is it real? Absolutely. I win a lot in all three places, and my blood angel build are very different for each. DoA absolutely rocks in Indy. It is average at best in Lafayette, and it gets destroyed in Chicago.

Back on topic:
IG is powerful. Overpowered? No. Hard to beat? Yes. So are my blood angels.


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