# Salamanders short end of the stick



## Cold86 (Sep 24, 2010)

Does anyone else feel like the salamanders are getting the short end of stick when its comes to fluff?

Now i know Iron hands have had it pretty bad but at least their Primarch has been fleshed out some and had a couple Badass fight scenes against his brother Fulgrim.

If/ When the Salamanders heresy novel comes out they better have the most badass story. Vulkan better be shown, he better be Badass. Now I know this is a long shot but i want Vulkan to fight someone/ anyone of his traitor brothers. Maybe Angron or Mortation, as in deliverance lost we see the world eaters chasing the ravenguard, why wouldnt the deathguard be sent after the salamanders?

Sorry i just want the Salamanders to be shown how cool they are. They should get their deserved place in the limelight right along all the other founding legions of the 31st millienium


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

No. They've had a novella and a short story.

White Scars have had three cameos, no sign of Jaghatai in fiction. One of those cameos may as well have been *********** the Chinaman, given how tactful or innovative the stereotype was.

The Iron Warriors have had...one short story and a cameo.

The Iron Hands have had one major cameo and another smaller cameo.

No, the Salamanders might have a small end of the stick, even _a short end_, but they don't have *the* short end. That's the Scars, still.


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## Cold86 (Sep 24, 2010)

Ah yes i see your point. Yah thats really bugs me tooa bout the way the "race" of the white scars is treated. Im 100% Korean and yah i wish there was some more Eastern influence in the 40k universe and not just the crazy horse riding, steppe living, nomad mongols, that are the white scars. Jez they at least could do some IG based on Japanese culture or chinese culture. I mean they were only the most advanced armies in the ye olde times.

Back to salamanders though. would anyone care to tell me why Salamanders are "slower" than other marines? I think thats BS, Though ive also read they spend alot of time building muscle strength and conditioning. So instead does that mean there slightly stronger and have more stamina than other marines?


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Cold86 said:


> Does anyone else feel like the salamanders are getting the short end of stick when its comes to fluff?
> 
> Now i know Iron hands have had it pretty bad but at least their Primarch has been fleshed out some and had a couple Badass fight scenes against his brother Fulgrim.
> 
> ...


You mean in the Heresy novels? Cause I think a trilogy of books, 3 audio books, and a novella is pretty good.



Xisor said:


> The Iron Warriors have had...one short story and a cameo.


Iron Warriors Omnibus?


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Cold86 said:


> Ah yes i see your point. Yah thats really bugs me tooa bout the way the "race" of the white scars is treated. Im 100% Korean and yah i wish there was some more Eastern influence in the 40k universe and not just the crazy horse riding, steppe living, nomad mongols, that are the white scars. Jez they at least could do some IG based on Japanese culture or chinese culture. I mean they were only the most advanced armies in the ye olde times.
> 
> Back to salamanders though. would anyone care to tell me why Salamanders are "slower" than other marines? I think thats BS, Though ive also read they spend alot of time building muscle strength and conditioning. So instead does that mean there slightly stronger and have more stamina than other marines?


I believe it is in deliverance lost, where the geneseed samples are being explained as each one is being analyzed and commented on (not all 20, but goes through a handful of them). One of them the comments are "this one is modified to have slower reactions, but at the gain of increased pain threshold" 

I interpreted that as being the nod towards the salamanders, another was on how one of the geneseed has wolf DNA coded straight into it. While another geneseed was commented on how it lacked any growth boosters, that they were purposely removed (alpharius anyone?)


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

The op is referring to the Heresy novels. 

I agree with Xisor, currently the White Scars are in the most need of attention. Though Iron Hands, Salamanders, Iron Warriors and World Eaters are lacking too. Though i believe the World Eaters are getting an audio drama and a novel (_Butchers Nails_ and _Betrayer_?)


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Wusword77 said:


> Cause I think a trilogy of books, 3 audio books, and a novella is pretty good.


Indeed. We White Scars fans have...the tour de force _The Hunt for Voldorius_ and the mediocre _Savage Scars_


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

Cold86 said:


> Ah yes i see your point. Yah thats really bugs me tooa bout the way the "race" of the white scars is treated. Im 100% Korean and yah i wish there was some more Eastern influence in the 40k universe and not just the crazy horse riding, steppe living, nomad mongols, that are the white scars. Jez they at least could do some IG based on Japanese culture or chinese culture. I mean they were only the most advanced armies in the ye olde times.
> 
> Back to salamanders though. would anyone care to tell me why Salamanders are "slower" than other marines? I think thats BS, Though ive also read they spend alot of time building muscle strength and conditioning. So instead does that mean there slightly stronger and have more stamina than other marines?



I was under the impression it was due to the higher gravity on Nocturne (sp?) - I may be wrong there though. Back it in the Codex Armageddon List for them this was the reason for the reduced number of Assault Squads. Never heard it was in their gene seed but I haven't read any of HH books past Mechanicum.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

Maybe race does play a part in the fluff . Most authors for Black library are white and I wager most of the warhammer 40 k fan base are white too. It makes sense that subconsciously they would prefer the white looking characters. 

I know that sounds controversy.

But I do want to see and read more of white scars role. Shoot I'm interested in knowing more about the other less popular primarchs and their legions roles in the heresy. 

So far there has been a heresy novel for the
Ultramarine ( Know No Fear ) 
world bearers( First Heretic )
thousand sons (thousand sons ), 
space wolves ( Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns )
luna wolves (Horus Rising .. really the first 3-4 novels), 
Death Guard ( Flight from _Eisenstein ) 
_Raven Guard ( Deliverance Lost ) 
Emperor Children ( Fulgrim)
Iron Hands ( I give Iron hands to Fulgrim too) 
Dark angels (Angels Descent ....)
Alpha Legion ( Legion) 


Imperial Fist been playing cameo in almost all the novels since Rogal Dorn is playing defense for Terra. The Blood angels also played cameo and we all know that they will have their own novel for the heresy series coming soon. 

So far not much is said about the white scars..guess they are too far out in space. The Night Loads will probably get their own heresy novels but they did share a story with the Imperial fist in "Dark King and Lighting Tower". 

The Salamanders and Iron Hands did have a novel together but that was like an exclusive book and not main stream . 


So...Iron Warriors probably get their own heresy novel since they played a role in wiping out the Imperial Fist. 

So that leaves...White Scars ..and Salamanders and World Eaters( they wll share a story with Fulgrim in "Buther Nail" so...we see.)

I mean not much is known about the white scars..heck not much is known about the Iron Warriors too. I'm talking on Warhammer 30 K .


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> Indeed. We White Scars fans have...the tour de force _The Hunt for Voldorius_ and the mediocre _Savage Scars_


Really...? Heresy wise the Blood Angel's have got NOTHING! They popped up for about half a chapter of very little camo then disappeared.......no man the salamanders have a nice big stick compared to the blood angels.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Yes but the Blood Angels are defiantly getting a book; _Fear to Tread_ and will feature in the Siege of Terra. The Salamanders have no such features.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Azkaellon said:


> Really...? Heresy wise the Blood Angel's have got NOTHING! They popped up for about half a chapter of very little camo then disappeared.......no man the salamanders have a nice big stick compared to the blood angels.


Given that Sanguinius is the reason for the Emperor being able to kill Horus (page 7, Codex: Blood Angels) the Blood Angels should have more Heresy novels. Furthermore, only the Blood Angels and Imperial Fists actually boarded Horus' ship. But I suppose our complaining won't change anything.

Nice name choice, by the way, Azkaellon.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

kwak76 said:


> Death Guard ( Flight from _Eisenstein )_


_

I wouldn't truly count Flight as a Death Guard novel, it was primarily the tale of Garro.



kwak76 said:



So...Iron Warriors probably get their own heresy novel since they played a role in wiping out the Imperial Fist.

Click to expand...

The battle you are referring to (the Battle of Phall) is going to be covered (at least in part) in Crimson Fist. The Iron Warriors will also feature in Angels Exterminatus (Mcneill's next heresy novel) alongside the Emperor's Children as well as having their own short story (Iron Within) and having the fall-back position of being involved during the Siege of Terra.



kwak76 said:



So that leaves...White Scars ..and Salamanders and World Eaters( they wll share a story with Fulgrim in "Buther Nail" so...we see.)

Click to expand...

World Eaters are getting an audio (Butcher's Nails) and a full novel (Betrayer).

In my mind the main Legions that are still to be covered are the White Scars, Salamanders, Iron Hands, Death Guard and Night Lords.

(I didn't include the Iron Warriors for the above reasons.)

Despite the Iron Hands having a minor role in Fulgrim and having their own upcoming novella Feat of Iron, it would be interesting to see the Legion throughout the Age of Darkness (especially given that their Primarch and veteran companies were lost on Isstvan, it would be interesting to see how they as a Legion dealt with their Primarch's death - especially considering he was the first Primarch to die, roughly 7 years before another died). The Death Guard havn't featured heavily at all, despite the main protagonist of Flight being of the XIV Legion - and their fall to Nurgle needs to be covered at some point. The Night Lords have had The Dark King, Savage Weapons and will get at least a cameo in the upcoming novella The Lion. Whilst the Salamanders have had tiny cameos and a novella, and the White Scars a couple of cameos but have the benefit of being heavily involved during the Siege of Terra.

The trio of traitors; Perturabo, Mortarion and Angron are the three Primarchs that need their reasons for joining Horus expanding upon (Betrayer should cover Angron's reasons - especially given the snippet of Corax's opinion on the matter in Raven's Flight). Curze hasn't featured really at all, therefore needs covering - although we do have a lot of information on him from the Night Lords series, Lord of the Night and the older lore. Vulkan and the Khan are the two loyalilsts who need desperately some attention in my opinion though.



Azkaellon said:



Really...? Heresy wise the Blood Angel's have got NOTHING! They popped up for about half a chapter of very little camo then disappeared.......no man the salamanders have a nice big stick compared to the blood angels.

Click to expand...

Fear to Tread will cover the War for the Signus Cluster, and the Blood Angels will be guaranteed a significant role during the Siege of Terra. As Rems said, the Salamanders don't have future prominent roles to fall back on.



Archon Dan said:



Given that Sanguinius is the reason for the Emperor being able to kill Horus (page 7, Codex: Blood Angels) the Blood Angels should have more Heresy novels.

Click to expand...

That's the Blood Angels version of events, other versions of the final duel don't include Sanguinius causing a ***** in Horus's armour at all.

Also for any of you interested, there has been a lot of debate on this topic over in the BL forums._


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Jacobite said:


> I was under the impression it was due to the higher gravity on Nocturne (sp?) - I may be wrong there though. Back it in the Codex Armageddon List for them this was the reason for the reduced number of Assault Squads. Never heard it was in their gene seed but I haven't read any of HH books past Mechanicum.


Armageddon says that due to increased Gravity the native people are stronger and hardier than most. The following sentence says that salamanders are slower than other chapters, but it doesn't directly link this to the first statement.

The slow thing has always bothered me, since they should be quicker after training in higher gravity.


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## sadLor (Jan 18, 2012)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> In my mind the main Legions that are still to be covered are the White Scars, Salamanders, Iron Hands, Death Guard and Night Lords.


Fantastic list... those are the same Legions I think need expanding on.

Death Guard - I'm not too worried since I'm sure they're gonna have a story on their fall to Nurgle. Finally we will see Mortarion's reason for joining Horus.

White Scars - There's so little love shown their way that they HAVE to get some loving soon. I'm not concerned. They have big roles to play in the siege of terra and before that so no need to worry, fellow WS fans.

Salamanders - Considering they had a novel on Corax, I'm hoping they have one on Vulkan as well. He's one of my favorite primarchs. A Legion that's dedicated to protecting the mortals of the Imperium... I would love to see Vulkan's thought process. But...I'm not too confident they'll have their own feature novel. I hope so though...I really do.

Night Lords - They're popular enough that they will get their own feature novel in the HH series. Like Vulkan, Curze is the traitor primarch I'm most interested in... would love to see how he thinks.

Iron Hands - Ohhhh this one is tough. I don't know if we will see them in a featuring role anymore. This is the one Legion I'm afraid won't be touched in the remaining books.


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## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

I haven't read it yet but Iron Hands, Death Guard and the Salamanders provided the action for _Promethean Sun_. Of course, a novella doesn't really do justice for all three alone and ideally it would be great for every legion to at least one novel dedicated to their part in the tale.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Definitely agree that Salamanders, and perhaps even more so, the White Scars, need to be given a little attention. Look at it this way: The Horus Heresy series is making GW oodles of money, so they'll likely continue it for as long as possible. With eighteen (twenty?) legions to cover, there's a lot of novels that can be written. Whether they'll all be awesome or even relevant is another matter .


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

Davidicus 40k said:


> Definitely agree that Salamanders, and perhaps even more so, the White Scars, need to be given a little attention. Look at it this way: The Horus Heresy series is making GW oodles of money, so they'll likely continue it for as long as possible. With eighteen (twenty?) legions to cover, there's a lot of novels that can be written. Whether they'll all be awesome or even relevant is another matter .


I think that being relevant is an important issue. Some of the less popular HH books (I'm thinking Nemesis, BftA and Outcast Dead) have been sideshows or haven't really advanced the arc at all. The Salamamders and Iron Hands don't really do anything that we know of after Isstvan V, and I think any book featuring them would need a clear purpose in the main story. Which is not to say I wouldn't like to see one, 'cos I would...


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

The slow reaction concept has already been explained in deliverance lost, the design of Vulkan at a genetic level was made to be slower at the gain of increased pain/damage threshold.


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## Varakir (Sep 2, 2009)

Lux said:


> The slow reaction concept has already been explained in deliverance lost, the design of Vulkan at a genetic level was made to be slower at the gain of increased pain/damage threshold.


Well that is good to know, thank ye guv'nor k:


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## Fire Tempered (Dec 16, 2010)

I'm not sure is that part referring to Mortarion or Vulkan, can some quote it, I don't own the book?


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

Fire Tempered said:


> I'm not sure is that part referring to Mortarion or Vulkan, can some quote it, I don't own the book?


If it is the bit I think it is, it is probably about Peturabo and the IWs:

_Sample Four: Managed to identify at least six unique sub complexes and protein strands gear towards physical durability, above and beyond that found in the others. 

Also a death of certain enhanced geners that boost the cytoarchetectonic structure responsible for the development of nociceptors and proprioceptory function.

Same Six: genetic encoding derived from a non human source, possibly caninine.

Subject Twenty: A whole suite of growth boosting augmentations is absent._ 

That's on the basis that they are Legion/ Primarch IV, and VI and XX clearly refer to the Space Wolves and Alpha Legion.

Nothing about being slow though, and I don't remember that coming up in Deliverance Lost.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

My mistake than, I had interpreted "Also a death of certain enhanced geners that boost the cytoarchetectonic structure responsible for the development of nociceptors and proprioceptory function." as equating to a loss of reaction speed.

That is why I interpreted it as being a nod to the salamanders.

Also my mistake if it wasn't from deliverance lost, I thought the above posted piece was.


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## Fire Tempered (Dec 16, 2010)

Hmm, I still think it's about Mortarion. Nociceptors are receptors that alow us to feel pain. And according to wiki, proprioception " is the sense of the relative position of neighbouring parts of the body and strength of effort being employed in movement". 

Still, I'm not sure. Is there any evidence of Death guard being more tollerant to pain prior to becoming devoted to Nurgle?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Fire Tempered said:


> Still, I'm not sure. Is there any evidence of Death guard being more tollerant to pain prior to becoming devoted to Nurgle?


It seems to be the case that the Primarch's genetic code which was used in the creation of their Legions had a significant impact on the Astartes. Thus I think it likely that the Death Guard were genetically more resilient that their cousin Legions.

It is quite surprising to think of the extent that the Primarchs had on their Legion's genetics. For example, Sanguinius' death unleashed the Thirst and Rage on his Legion. Dorn's death resulted in his successor Chapters bearing a drive for self-sacrifice. Perturabo's cold logic and affinity for technology was inherited by his Legion (before they were reuinted) as was his resulting lack of faith. Et cetera.


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

Lux said:


> My mistake than, I had interpreted "Also a death of certain enhanced geners that boost the cytoarchetectonic structure responsible for the development of nociceptors and proprioceptory function." as equating to a loss of reaction speed.
> 
> That is why I interpreted it as being a nod to the salamanders.
> 
> Also my mistake if it wasn't from deliverance lost, I thought the above posted piece was.


Sorry, I didn't express myself too well, the bit I quoted is from DL, and I was also showing my ignorance of biology as I've now checked and you are right about the reaction speed thing.

That does sound like the Sallies, but I still think it refers to Legion IV, which is the Iron Warriors.


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## Darkoan (Oct 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> That's the Blood Angels version of events, other versions of the final duel don't include Sanguinius causing a ***** in Horus's armour at all.



Kai's vision/memory thing in The Outcast Dead at p443 suggests the very ***** you speak of. And thus it appears the revelation of Sarashina's overdose on warp-truth proves the Great Angel did not die in vain 


And just on that, yes, my beloved Blood Angels have been totally dissed up to this point, with their only memorable appearance being hung like Xmas baubles on Murder. But as pointed out they are getting a story now.

May I echo the previous posts and acknowledge the notable dearth of respect paid to our 'asian' and 'black' brothers - funny that I never noticed until today that it was a potential racist thing! I too am a Salamanders fan and have loved their own 40k novels, and look forward with relish to the first freshly burnt traitor.

I have been a bit of a hermit with the latest news, and to COTE and others, thank you for the updates.


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## sadLor (Jan 18, 2012)

Tywin Lannister said:


> Sorry, I didn't express myself too well, the bit I quoted is from DL, and I was also showing my ignorance of biology as I've now checked and you are right about the reaction speed thing.
> 
> That does sound like the Sallies, but I still think it refers to Legion IV, which is the Iron Warriors.


The Salamanders=slow reaction thing was said in the short novella, Promethean Sun, right? I can't remember. Someone who has it want to confirm?


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

The slow reaction thing stems from the 3rd Edition stuff on them, either Codex: Armageddon or the Index Astartes of the same time.


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## Darkoan (Oct 18, 2010)

Fire Tempered said:


> Hmm, I still think it's about Mortarion. Nociceptors are receptors that alow us to feel pain. And according to wiki, proprioception " is the sense of the relative position of neighbouring parts of the body and strength of effort being employed in movement".
> 
> Still, I'm not sure. Is there any evidence of Death guard being more tollerant to pain prior to becoming devoted to Nurgle?


I remember with 99% certainty the Death Guard pre-heresy being referred to having outstanding resilience in the HH novels. It was a passing comment so I have no idea which book, my apologies.

Assuming this, Im in fact quite sure 'sample 4' mentioned in DL was in fact a reference to Mortarion. However it is heavily implied (given that sample 6 is most certainly Russ and sample 20 is most certainly the Twins) sample 4 means the genetic material of the Primarch of the 4th legion, which would be Perturabo.
Which is a little strange. Surely if there was one Primarch who could be described as having 'physical durability above the others', it would be Mortarion.


Having also just finished The Outcast Dead (with its litany of mistakes), could it simply be a mistake - was it supposed to read 'sample 14' not 'sample 4'?

My bet is on a missing '1'.
Seriously.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

If the Salamanders have slower reaction than that would also imply that they would be the weakest in hand to hand combat. I mean in a fight having good reaction is important. 

Even though they might make up for it with higher pain tolerance speed kills.


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