# Wargaming snobbery and 40k hate



## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Hey,

Just wanted to talk briefly about my FLGS and how myself and others have noticed the more time we spend there the more we notice an air of snobbery amongst some members that is kind of dragging the whole atmosphere down. I was wondering if anyone else here has had similar experiences. 

What I mean by this is that (especially lately) there are a few regular members who will immediately go on a rant about 40k if anyone so much as mentions it. Then they will go on about it for ages; how broken it is, how expensive it supposedly is, and then how much better other gaming systems are. 

Don't get me wrong, people have every right to critcise 40k, and I often point out things that I see wrong with it. However, I wouldn't go on about it for 10+ minutes multiple times everytime I am in the club, and I wouldn't do it so it interrupts and disrupts peoples gaming. 

What gets me is that if you don't like 40k and are happy playing other systems, why would you spend so much time talking about something you don't even like? If you are playing Infinity, Malifaux, Helldorao, Warmachine etc why go on about 40k constantly when you could talk about these gaming systems? 
Hardly anyone ever plays 40k there anymore, and I think it's because you cannot even bring up the words Games Workshop without someone going off on a rant about it. I do not feel like I can really play it there anymore because of this. Maybe it's because I am just not a hardcore gamer? I play Malifaux and recently Infinity but still love my 40k, mainly because it still has by far the best/deepest background that I have come across. I like all of them for different reasons, so I don't get how people who supposedly hate 40k talk about it all the time. 
So what if 40k is unbalanced? If you want a highly balanced well tested gaming system, play something else, there is so much choice out there and none are very expensive to start and play. 
40k - for me at least - is for fun, beer and pretzels gaming. And that is what I happen to like the most. Does it have problems? Yeah. Do I go on about it constantly? No. Am I better than 40k gamers because I play other systems? What the fuck. No. I find it pretty pathetic that people would have to feel that way, because it seems to show that they don't have much going on outside of gaming and the only way they can define themselves is through their gaming.

I would understand and sympathise if people didn't have a choice to play anything but 40k in their hometown, but in this instance they do, so I don't get why people have to be so snobby about it and go around with a air of arrogance just because they play different systems. 

End rant.

SF


----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I've always tended to find that all tabletop gamers tend to band together - we're all playing with plastic space men at the end of the day, whether they're Menoth, Acontecimento or Tyranids, so there's usually a pretty good spirit between everybody. What I do find is some people who are very elitist within their chosen game, but that's generally because they're arseholes in all other spheres as well.


----------



## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

Couldn't agree with you more.

The other night I played a game of Apocalypse at the Gaming Club I frequent.
Was in there for some six hours and had a real hoot, even though I lost through a couple of schoolboy errors early in the game.
It happens.
I noticed a lot of people looking across patronisingly at the pair of us and could hear the comments about how crap 40K had become with the addition of this, that and the other...

Funnily enough, at our table there was no arguing about rules and there were certainly no tears, which did happen at one table close by.
In fact, all that happened at our table was that we had fun.

I thought that was what it was all about.


----------



## Jdojo18 (May 8, 2012)

Strakand, come to Michigan and play at my FLGS. We have a huge gaming community and the only problem we have are a few power gamers. That's only because we have some of the best players and painters in America at the store. We have Greg Sparks, Brad Chester, Chris Borer, and others that are there every week, so some people bring uber cheesy lists to compete at their play level. Aside from that, we dont have too many whiners. There are a few people that left 40k to play warmahordes, but everyone is excited to see the different models on the table


----------



## Einherjar667 (Aug 23, 2013)

This isn't a symptom exclusive to wargaming unfortunately. As an active professional musician and professional artist, I see it everywhere. It's best to just ignore it and remember that they're just the obnoxious and vocal minority and press on with doing what you love. You have to remember, there are more of us than them.


----------



## scscofield (May 23, 2011)

This is more a problem with douchebags at your store I think. I would either call them out about it or mention the issue to the store manager/owner. Douchebags come in all flavors of life and is not a 40k exclusive thing.


----------



## Einherjar667 (Aug 23, 2013)

The bast advice I can give is to not let it push you away. If that happens, all the positive people will follow and only the douchebags will be left. These kind of people just want to shit on something you love for what ever insecure reason. Tell the manager if it is interolable, but outnumbering them is important, get more 40kers to come to your shop to play, just make them shrink basically.


----------



## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

I find a lot of people who bitch about Warhammer have had a bad experience with it in the past and have failed to get past it and have let it build up so it becomes venomous and they naturally grasp and every little negative that springs up from it.


----------



## The Irish Commissar (Jan 31, 2012)

I had a similar experience with someone where i beat them badly in 40k. He got pretty thick about it and ever since comes in every week and just gives out about 40k and how crap it is and really puts off any one trying to playing their game. Stupit childish behaviour like that really annoys me.


----------



## fatmantis (Jun 26, 2009)

now before you read my comment bear in mind i am a very aggressive person...so when i hear this type of comments im straight up in their face and tell them to shut up..play your game and leave me to play my..people are entitled to thier opinions but i am at my wits end with all this GW hate at the moment..sick to death of hearing about the cost and the rules blah blah..if you dont like move on..but shut your mouth.

now as an owner of a LFGS i dont allow this type of behavior..if i see it i stop it immediately..i will not loose customers due to small minded idiots. as for power gamers we are lucky we only have 1..and he really gets every body down..so i played him beat him twice now he hasn't been seen for a while haha.
but again as an owner i try to keep the environment as cool as possible.


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

Everyone needs to validate their choices in life, by taking a stance opposed to the choice they discarded. Whether it's vocal or just internal, everyone has the opinion that anything they have rejected is necessarily inferior to the alternative they chose instead.

For example, someone who has decided not to drink alcohol for whatever reason will often look down (even in a small way) on people who choose to drink and get drunk - they will think they are "wasting money" or "damaging themselves" or "not really having fun" or whatever. This is only natural and human, and generally doesn't harm anyone, because it's just a personal opinion.

The problem arises when you attempt to either enforce this opinion on someone who doesn't share it (example above, telling other people not to drink and throwing a hissy fit when they do) or you start proselytizing at other people about how your choice is better than their choice, which seems to be the case in Straken's club.

To combat it, then I think you need to conduct a small breaching exercise - a way of breaking social norms in order to get across a sharp message.

Normally, when the situation you mention occurs, what do you do? I would imagine (since I assume you're a normal decent person) that you perhaps smile, nod, do your best to move the conversation onto other topics, refuse to engage, don't make eye contact or provocative statements, try to ignore them etc. This isn't working for you, since the problem seems to be getting worse and worse.

My suggestion would be to try something different. The next time someone goes off on one about 40k or GW, then move from wherever you are, and whatever you're doing (if you're playing then excuse yourself politely to your opponent) and walk over to the person and place yourself in front of them. Don't get all up in their face, a few steps away is fine. Make eye contact, hold it for the entire conversation, and say loudly, clearly and politely in the most firm manner you can get something along this line:

"Hi, I don't know if you've noticed, but I happen to enjoy playing 40k. When you rant about it like this, I feel that you are criticising me personally, because I have chosen to play this game. I appreciate you do not like the system or company, and that's your choice, but I would ask that you don't keep lashing on at it while I'm here. After all, if I bitched about how shit [their system] is every time you walked in the room, you'd get pretty sick of it too. Have some respect for other people, and please keep your opinions to yourself."

The key is to be strong, unhesitating and polite. Don't engage in debate, and especially don't argue or lose your temper. Simply say what you want to say and then walk back to your table and continue what you were doing - absolutely don't say this just before leaving the store (which will be seen unconsciously as weak). I'd say you've got something like an 90% chance of them apologising and stopping from doing it (for the next day or so at least) and a 10% chance of them raging at you, in which case you calmly look to the manager and say something like "I don't feel this person is able to respect the other people in this store", turn your back and walk away. Let them deal with it. In our society there is almost no-one at all who will stand in front of you, look you in the eye, and tell you to shut up - especially relative strangers. About the only people I can think of are the police and maybe teachers. By doing the same, you're taking the same mental space as those authority figures in their head, and so it's very likely that the conditioning we have (to do what we're told by authority) will be enough to get them to do what you tell them and shut the fuck up, even though you have no such authority in objective reality.

If that doesn't work (for whatever reason) then have a quiet word with the manager. Point out that you are being put off from attending (and mention anyone else you can think of who might be put off too - don't be afraid to speak out for every single other 40k player, they probably agree with you) and therefore spending less time in his store, less time playing his games, and spending less money. Odds are good that he'll stamp on it.


----------



## fatmantis (Jun 26, 2009)

Sethis;1534601
"Hi said:


> is every time you walked in the room, you'd get pretty sick of it too. Have some respect for other people, and please keep your opinions to yourself."
> oh thanks for the laugh:good: in what society does this even work? this is on par with just ignore the bully he will get bored and go away...please imean no disrespect but that will never work..well unless your the hulk then maybe..
> 
> The key is to be strong, unhesitating and polite. Don't engage in debate, and especially don't argue or lose your temper. Simply say what you want to say and then walk back to your table and continue what you were doing - absolutely don't say this just before leaving the store (which will be seen unconsciously as weak)very true). I'd say you've got something like an 90% chance of them apologising and stopping from doing it doubt this very very much but hey give it a go(
> ...


this should be the first and only option if you dont want a confrontation..im sure as i said earlier most small business cant afford to lose a customer to some idiot..it should be the managers responsibility to say "hey you guys are annoying customers either shut it or go
it is time the minority stopped ruling the majority...of my soap box now ahahah:victory:


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

fatmantis said:


> oh thanks for the laugh in what society does this even work? this is on par with just ignore the bully he will get bored and go away...please imean no disrespect but that will never work..well unless your the hulk then maybe..


Have you tried this before? I've had it work more than it failed. It's also a completely and utterly different situation to bullying - which is a person or group of people picking on another person and victimising them, which fulfills their predatory and pack instinct by targeting a weaker individual, and the best way to deal with it is in fact to kick them in the balls as hard as you can when they don't expect it and can't retaliate.

What Straken describes isn't bullying, it's people spouting off their own opinions without enough empathy to understand how irritating everyone else finds it. They don't expect anyone to tell them directly to stop, because in their mind then they're just pointing out the incredibly obvious fact that 40k is crap, GW is crap, and no-one in their right mind would play the game. They don't have a confrontational mindset in place because they aren't being challenged, which means you have a pretty good chance of successfully impacting their behaviour by challenging it.


----------



## Ninjurai (Mar 31, 2010)

Cognitive dissonance - nuff said


----------



## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Sethis said:


> Everyone needs to validate their choices in life, by taking a stance opposed to the choice they discarded. Whether it's vocal or just internal, everyone has the opinion that anything they have rejected is necessarily inferior to the alternative they chose instead.












Yes. 

My favorites are the insults to intelligence. 40k is dumbed down, but WFB takes real skill. WoW got dumbed down and doesn't take any skill, etc. etc.. Just shuuut the fuuuck up. Gamers must have the most collectively sore butthole compared to any other group I know. If your "superior" intelligence isn't enough to guarantee a win against the morons that are beating you, _clearly_ there is something wrong with the game, right? *eye roll*

Everyone gets frustrated and whines. It's human. I do it more often than I'd like and I consider it a personal character flaw, but I try to keep it in check. Very few of us are quantifiably superior to the others, I'm afraid. Get over that shit. If you don't enjoy something, it doesn't have to be a part of your life. Things will never be the way you want them to be just because you want them that way. Wallowing in your juvenile misery will never improve the situation. Move on to something that conforms to your standards and brings you enjoyment. If that isn't possible, I truly feel pity for you.


----------



## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

Just say: "Yeah, okay, we get it. You don't like 40K. Is there a point to this rant? Because we just want to play a game and won't force you to participate."

The tabletop gaming scene is full of passive-aggressive neckbeards who have no ability to be alpha males in the rest of life, so they inhabit that sphere where they think they do have it. Don't let them get to you.



fatmantis said:


> oh thanks for the laugh:good: in what society does this even work? this is on par with just ignore the bully he will get bored and go away...please imean no disrespect but that will never work..well unless your the hulk then maybe..


Most people have no capacity for confrontation. Honestly, you'd be surprised what a public shaming will do to shut most people up.

But if what I suggested above doesn't work, I agree that speaking to the manager about it is probably a good idea.


----------



## Kreuger (Aug 30, 2010)

I think Sethis had this right on. And honestly you can probably even agree with the guy on some of the points, and still making the distinction that regardless of his views on 40k you enjoy playing it and he is being rude.

I find I can often undermine somebody else's argument by partially agreeing with them. They don't expect it, and suddenly your position is ambiguous . . . and you might be an ally. Acknowledging his position and feelings validates his feelings while you disagree with his behavior. That serves to separate this guys feelings/opinions from his behavior, which is the real problem.

Then you offer an opportunity for him to continue to have your positive opinions.

Training people and changing their behaviour is mostly an act of positive reinforcement. People (and animals) respond much more strongly to positive reinforcement than negative reinforcement.


----------



## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

Well said Kreuger, have a chocolate...


----------



## fatmantis (Jun 26, 2009)

Sethis said:


> Have you tried this before? I've had it work more than it failed. It's also a completely and utterly different situation to bullying - which is a person or group of people picking on another person and victimising them, which fulfills their predatory and pack instinct by targeting a weaker individual, and the best way to deal with it is in fact to kick them in the balls as hard as you can when they don't expect it and can't retaliate.
> 
> What Straken describes isn't bullying, it's people spouting off their own opinions without enough empathy to understand how irritating everyone else finds it. They don't expect anyone to tell them directly to stop, because in their mind then they're just pointing out the incredibly obvious fact that 40k is crap, GW is crap, and no-one in their right mind would play the game. They don't have a confrontational mindset in place because they aren't being challenged, which means you have a pretty good chance of successfully impacting their behaviour by challenging it.


i was was not saying it was bullying i was comparing your choice of response to them,,was similar to ignoring a bully both ineffective..but as i said if it works go for it..

also i stated in my original post that i am a very aggressive person. so to answer your question have i ever tried it..i have been a bouncer for many years..so id say yeah ive had to deal with dickheads of al types..and talking usually doesn't work..yes i know different situations..but where i come from if your going to ask someone to,l be quiet or, shut up or even challenge there perception that is confrontation...

i also stated that i am an owner of a games shop..and when you become a member and sign up there a small friendship agreement..and one of the rule states " to argue like gentlemen" which means to present you case in a clear concise manner..with FACT..if you cant..keep your opinion to your self..and every body likes that..so in our shop we almost never have this situation..i say almost due to i have 1 guy who gets on every bodies nerve..but he doesn't come often.

so again this should be dealt with by the manager


----------



## fatmantis (Jun 26, 2009)

Veteran Sergeant said:


> Just say:
> Most people have no capacity for confrontation. Honestly, you'd be surprised what a public shaming will do to shut most people up.i completely agree..but if your not prepared to stand up and say something then you have no right to complain do you
> 
> But if what I suggested above doesn't work, I agree that speaking to the manager about it is probably a good idea.


----------



## Sethis (Jun 4, 2009)

fatmantis said:


> i was was not saying it was bullying i was comparing your choice of response to them,,was similar to ignoring a bully both ineffective


Which is what I don't understand. Straken IS currently ignoring it, and nothing is changing. I'm telling him to confront the person directly. Which is also how I suggested you deal with bullies - just make sure a bully doesn't have mates to back him up, and you get the first effective blow in.



fatmantis said:


> i have been a bouncer for many years..so id say yeah ive had to deal with dickheads of al types


Drunk dickheads who have Alpha male mentalities, and girls/friends they want to impress with their manliness. Of course my suggestion wouldn't work in that situation.



fatmantis said:


> so again this should be dealt with by the manager


I would suggest that Straken attempts to deal with it himself first, because it's always good to improve yourself through taking on challenges that are within your capability. If someone is being obnoxious and irritating then the best thing you can do is try to solve the problem yourself. That way you develop as a person, gain confidence, and will be more willing to stand up for yourself and what you believe in the next time something similar happens. There's a massive difference between confronting an asshole (politely and calmly) and asking someone else to make him stop being an asshole. One is empowering and self-affirming, the other is not.

Of course if the personal solution doesn't succeed, then I absolutely agree that the next step is to take it to the manager - who is remiss for allowing this behaviour to occur in his store to begin with.


----------



## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

"40k is a broken system that's dumbed down." 
"Warmahordes is for 3L33T skills Players who hate 40k."
"Infinity means you should question your sexuality."
"Kings of War is a knock off WHFB and you shouldn't play it because reasons."
"Historic wargames are for old people." 

I have heard all of these arguments both in the past and recently.

I'm looking forward to moving away from where I am at the moment because my player base is a bit too caustic and restricted right now. I play alot of games with friends but have been thoroughly put off by a few bad-apples in other clubs.


----------



## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Moonschwine said:


> "40k is a broken system that's dumbed down."
> "Historic wargames are for old people."


Seems like a sensible combination. I must be moving away from 40k to Historical's due to my advancing age and retreating attent...... ooh, snacks! opcorn:


----------



## fatmantis (Jun 26, 2009)




----------



## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

venomlust said:


> 40k is dumbed down, but WFB takes real skill.


Ah, the old classic. Think I'd be fooled into thinking that Fantasy is more than glorified Candyland, eh?

It's not only an insult to the intelligence - it's plain wrong :laugh:


----------



## Lanfear (Mar 23, 2011)

MidnightSun said:


> I've always tended to find that all tabletop gamers tend to band together - we're all playing with plastic space men at the end of the day, whether they're Menoth, Acontecimento or Tyranids, so there's usually a pretty good spirit between everybody. What I do find is some people who are very elitist within their chosen game, but that's generally because they're arseholes in all other spheres as well.


I echo what midnight said. Chances are these whining throbbers are arseholes no matter what context they are in or what sphere they chose to move in. Tell them to go take their face for a shite and don't give them the time of day to rant at you and eat into your valuable gaming time. 

This toy soldiers stuff is all about having fun and enjoying yourself whether you are a painter, tournament player or fluffy army builder etc.

Unless it is constructive there is no need to waste time on small minded morons whinging about this rule and that system etc. If they don't like it they don't need to play it!!!! Chances are they are crap at the game and can't take humiliating defeat due to them being shit.


----------



## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Sethis said:


> Which is what I don't understand. Straken IS currently ignoring it, and nothing is changing. I'm telling him to confront the person directly. Which is also how I suggested you deal with bullies - just make sure a bully doesn't have mates to back him up, and you get the first effective blow in.
> 
> *While I wouldn't go as far as to say these people are "bullies" you are right here in how to deal with them...*
> 
> ...


I did suggest with some friends here (IRL) that I start calling people out subtly and they agreed that is probably a good idea. I am glad to see people suggesting it here too tbh.
Right now it is a very small (but sadly vocal) minority who go off on these rants and have these off-hand sly comments. The FLGS in general is great. But I think they need to be stood upto because otherwise it's going to spread like wildfire. I am pretty slow to anger as I am quite reserved and very patient, but when people consistently be a dick about something (especially to other people or myself) I am usually pretty vocal in calling them out. Everyone has their limits. And yeah I have been polite about it and laughed it off or tried to change the conversation gently, but it doesn't seem to work, so now I think it's time to be more confrontational. 

Sadly, I have heard the argument "40k is for simpletons" numerous times too lol. Seems to be a favourite topic amongst the "haters". That and "I can't afford 40k anymore, I would need to take a second mortage out on my home." I find this to be unfounded, as those people are often the ones who spend the most on gaming by collecting and playing dozens of systems. But that's a different story.


----------



## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Moonschwine said:


> "Infinity means you should question your sexuality."


haha that is a good one actually. I get it.


----------



## Straken's_Fist (Aug 15, 2012)

Jdojo18 said:


> Strakand, come to Michigan and play at my FLGS. We have a huge gaming community and the only problem we have are a few power gamers. That's only because we have some of the best players and painters in America at the store. We have Greg Sparks, Brad Chester, Chris Borer, and others that are there every week, so some people bring uber cheesy lists to compete at their play level. Aside from that, we dont have too many whiners. There are a few people that left 40k to play warmahordes, but everyone is excited to see the different models on the table


When the business is up and running smoothly in Canada I shall take you up on that mate ;-)


----------



## Jdojo18 (May 8, 2012)

Straken's_Fist said:


> When the business is up and running smoothly in Canada I shall take you up on that mate ;-)


Great!


----------



## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

Tawa said:


> Seems like a sensible combination. I must be moving away from 40k to Historical's due to my advancing age and retreating attent...... ooh, snacks! opcorn:


I think it's in line with driving slower and eating at Hometown Buffet. 

You're no longer in a hurry, so playing one really good game is more important than playing three okay ones. 



I'm on the verge of being dragged into Battlegroup Kursk and Chain of Command. And I thought it would be hard to explain my collection of Space Marines to women. How the heck do I explain a reinforced platoon of 20mm Nazis (my buddies already have Finns and Russians)? :laugh:


----------



## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

You could always go Hungarian, Romanian or Italian


----------



## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Tawa said:


> Seems like a sensible combination. I must be moving away from 40k to Historical's due to my advancing age and retreating attent...... ooh, snacks! opcorn:


I may be moving onto playing a bit of bolt action, purely just so I can paint some historical mini's. Does this mean I'm turning into an old codger? Oh no this measn I have to wear knee length shorts, sandals with socks, grow a beard, smoke a pipe and grumble about youngsters and how good it was in the old days!!


----------



## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

humakt said:


> I may be moving onto playing a bit of bolt action, purely just so I can paint some historical mini's. Does this mean I'm turning into an old codger? Oh no this measn I have to wear knee length shorts, sandals with socks, grow a beard, smoke a pipe and grumble about youngsters and how good it was in the old days!!


Yup. Welcome to the club :laugh:


----------

