# Which of the loyalist primarchs did Horus try to turn to Chaos?



## Shattertheirsky (May 26, 2012)

As the title suggests, are there any LOYALIST primarchs that Horus tried to turn or thought he could persuade to turn to heresy against the emperor?


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

Well, Fulgrim tried to turn Manus (that went well!), and I think that there have been mentions of Horus expecting the Khan and/ or Sanguinius to join him, but I'll leave it to others more knowledgable to clarify that!


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## Shattertheirsky (May 26, 2012)

Yeah Fulgrim/Manus didn't go well.....:/


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## Gret79 (May 11, 2012)

Lion El'jonson was sat on the fence till quite recently, and there may have been some expectations involving the Space wolves at some point but thats all I can think of.

And one of the alpha legion primarchs may now be loyalist

But as Tywin said - "I'll leave it to others more knowledgable to clarify that!"


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

At the end of deliverance lost, Horus tells Alpharius what he expects to happen and which of his brothers will betray the Emperor, he expects Sanguinius to, and the Khan, aswell as the lion.
He tries to goad the lion to betrayal through Curze.
Obviously he also tried Ferrus too.
He didn't try Guilliman, or Dorn, or Corax, we don't really know about Vulkan or Russ.
But since Horus tried to get the khan he probably tried Russ (the 2 are described as being very close), though I don't have the book on me so not 100%sure


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Horus featured Ferrus Manus into his plans after Fulgrim assured him he could turn Manus. He also expected the Khan to join him in due course. 

The Heresy series (_Know No Fear_ IIRC) mentions that Horus recognised a trio of Primarchs that would never turn from the Emperor; Sanguinius, Guilliman and Dorn IIRC. 

Corax was the only Primarch that Horus did not have a good relationship with so he was probably expected to remain loyal to Terra. Russ was probably recognised as too dedicated to the Emperor in order to turn, although Horus seems to have played some part in the Burning of Prospero.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Horus did try to get Sanguinius to turn during the final battle. That's why Sanguinius wound up alone with Horus on his battle barge. When Sanguinius refused, Horus flew into a rage and killed him, hence the Emperor finding Horus over his body.

Horus did use Russ to further his goals. Ordering him to kill Magnus ensured Magnus would join Chaos as his last resort. But I don't know if Horus actually tried to turn Russ.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Archon Dan said:


> Horus did use Russ to further his goals. Ordering him to kill Magnus ensured Magnus would join Chaos as his last resort. But I don't know if Horus actually tried to turn Russ.


I think this has been retconned in _Prospero Burns_. 

At least to me, I think it was pretty clear that the Emperor ordered Russ to make Magnus pay for his transgressions. Russ did offer Magnus the offer to surrender peacefully, whether that was ordered by the Emperor or he was given enough wiggle room to offer them himself is a good question.

I don't think Russ would have offered Magnus terms if the Emperor told him to outright kill him. The point of the novel was that the Space Wolves are utterly loyal and would follow the Emperor no matter what. I can't see Russ disobeying the Emperor and offering Magnus a chance to surrender if the Emperor ordered irrevocably Magnus's death.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

hailene said:


> I think this has been retconned in _Prospero Burns_.
> 
> At least to me, I think it was pretty clear that the Emperor ordered Russ to make Magnus pay for his transgressions. Russ did offer Magnus the offer to surrender peacefully, whether that was ordered by the Emperor or he was given enough wiggle room to offer them himself is a good question.
> 
> I don't think Russ would have offered Magnus terms if the Emperor told him to outright kill him. The point of the novel was that the Space Wolves are utterly loyal and would follow the Emperor no matter what. I can't see Russ disobeying the Emperor and offering Magnus a chance to surrender if the Emperor ordered irrevocably Magnus's death.


It could be that _Prospero Burns_ changed things. Last I read was that the Emperor ordered Russ to bring Magnus to Terra. But Horus, not yet revealed as a traitor, though aware that Magnus had seen the future told Russ to kill him instead. The offer for surrender makes sense as Russ did not receive the order to kill direct from the Emperor. But if I had the choice between going to Terra, getting killed or swearing allegience to Tzeentch ... probably go to Terra, plead my case. Though I'm sure Horus would have had any ship transporting Magnus destroyed.


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## redmapa (Nov 9, 2011)

> And one of the alpha legion primarchs may now be loyalist


They are loyal to the Emperor, in their own convoluted way..Now one of them has to join Horus fully, Im thinking Alpharius will join Horus's side and take half of the legion to Eskrador..Omegon will probably take the other half and remain loyal..


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Horus featured Ferrus Manus into his plans after Fulgrim assured him he could turn Manus. He also expected the Khan to join him in due course.
> 
> The Heresy series (_Know No Fear_ IIRC) mentions that Horus recognised a trio of Primarchs that would never turn from the Emperor; Sanguinius, Guilliman and Dorn IIRC.
> 
> Corax was the only Primarch that Horus did not have a good relationship with so he was probably expected to remain loyal to Terra. Russ was probably recognised as too dedicated to the Emperor in order to turn, although Horus seems to have played some part in the Burning of Prospero.


I think it was a Captain and then Guilliman who recognised three of his brothers who would never give up and who he could win any conflict with, I believe these where Ferrus Manus, Leman Russ and Dorn because they either recognised their place in the universe and the Emperor's plans or who where to headstrong and prideful to ever give up.

I don't get the reasoning behind why the Khan would easily turn.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I don't get the reasoning behind why the Khan would easily turn.


There doesn't really seem to be any reasoning (I certainly can't recall anyone ever stating "The White Scars will turn because of such-and-such"). Given how very, very little we know about Khan it's hard to say what could/would motivate him to turn. He kinda strikes me as the loyalist Mortarion, whose reasoning is pretty flimsy (as far as I've seen) and never really stated. 

That being said I don't understand why Fulgrim thought he could turn Ferrus (aside from pride or love) or why Horus believed him. Fulgrim's attempt seems pretty half-assed to me and I was not surprised in the slightest that Ferrus shot him down (metaphorically). There didn't seem to be any internal struggle on Ferrus' part, and I was sort of let down by that.


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## redmapa (Nov 9, 2011)

I always thought of the Khan as a mix between Horus and Russ, a boasting, proud, ambitious political animal that fought like a savage and was just a somewhat over the top character.. I mean the guy supposedly charges the enemy lines while riding the top of a razorback at the defence of terra, I suppose Horus could've appealed to the Khan's warrior pride like the Dark Gods did with Horus..


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## Iron Within (Mar 15, 2008)

Horus tried to turn Sanguinius, which is the subject of the upcoming HH novel Fear to Tread. It says so in the cover description. 

Amazon.com: Fear to Tread (Horus Heresy) (9781849701969): James Swallow: Books

There would have been no point in trying to turn Dorn or Guilliman.


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## Callistarius (Aug 17, 2010)

Words_of_Truth said:


> I think it was a Captain and then Guilliman who recognised three of his brothers who would never give up and who he could win any conflict with, I believe these where Ferrus Manus, Leman Russ and Dorn because they either recognised their place in the universe and the Emperor's plans or who where to headstrong and prideful to ever give up.
> 
> I don't get the reasoning behind why the Khan would easily turn.


The Dauntless Few: Sanguinius, Dorn, Ferrus Manus & Leman Russ. They know their roles and fulfil those roles, no matter the enemy or the odds.


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## Tywin Lannister (Nov 17, 2011)

MEQinc said:


> There doesn't really seem to be any reasoning (I certainly can't recall anyone ever stating "The White Scars will turn because of such-and-such"). Given how very, very little we know about Khan it's hard to say what could/would motivate him to turn. He kinda strikes me as the loyalist Mortarion, whose reasoning is pretty flimsy (as far as I've seen) and never really stated.
> 
> That being said I don't understand why Fulgrim thought he could turn Ferrus (aside from pride or love) or why Horus believed him.


I think there is a line somewhere (GiF/ FotE maybe) about how Mortarion was always closer to Horus than to the Emperor, plus with the whole Death thing he already looks evil, but that is clearly a story that stilll needs to be told.

With Fulgrim I think pride and love sums it up pretty well, and Horus thought the prize was worth the risk.

Hopefully we will learn about the Khan at some point...


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

redmapa said:


> They are loyal to the Emperor, in their own convoluted way..Now one of them has to join Horus fully, Im thinking Alpharius will join Horus's side and take half of the legion to Eskrador..Omegon will probably take the other half and remain loyal..


If you haven't already read The Primarchs, do so, it will fill in some blanks...

As for Loyalists Horus tried to turn, Magnus should be head of this list. He was totally loyal,and only turned to join Horus after Russ's attack. Horus didn't even want him on side, he wanted him dead.


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## BlackGuard (Sep 10, 2010)

***SPOILER ALERT***

Fulgrim was totally loyal as well, but the Laeran Blade corrupted his mind and turned him slowly against the Emperor. I believe the daemon tells Horus this in _Fulgrim_, something along the lines that had he not intervened then Fulgrim would have ran to Terra and informed the Emperor of his brother's betrayal.


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## TheReverend (Dec 2, 2007)

That's a good call *BlackGuard*. I guess we could go further back and ask "which of the loyal Primarchs did Lorgar try to turn to chaos"? As Horus was only swayed when he was at his lowest, taken down by the daemon blade. If he was fit and healthy and Lorgar had approached him he probably would have taken him out. 

At the end of the day, this whole thing started with lorgars feelings of inadequacy and resentment towards some of his brothers. He was shown a way of redeeming himself in their eyes and took it. It all goes back to the Big E being a bad parent. The Primarchs never all sat down around a table, never built a bond of kinship, never acted like a family unit. But if they had they would have been stronger and the Heresy wouldn't have happened.


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## Sangriento (Dec 1, 2010)

BlackGuard said:


> ***SPOILER ALERT***
> 
> Fulgrim was totally loyal as well, but the Laeran Blade corrupted his mind and turned him slowly against the Emperor. I believe the daemon tells Horus this in _Fulgrim_, something along the lines that had he not intervened then Fulgrim would have ran to Terra and informed the Emperor of his brother's betrayal.


Fulgrim's obssession with art and perfection had already tainted him and his legion, growing to be prideful boasting and vainglorious. 
They had even started meddling with their gene seed to "improve themselves", hereby acknowledging the Emp's job wasnt perfect, in other words, he was fallible.

Peeps like Bile and Eidolon were tolerated and even rewarded before Fulgrim got a hold on the weapon. 

EC's were well on track to fall for chaos. I think, given enough time, they would have fallen for Slaneesh sooner or later. the daemon weapon just rushed the process.


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