# Units to avoid like the Bubonic Plague?



## Minizke1 (Feb 7, 2010)

I'll start with Pyrovores, Techmarines, and Swooping Hawks.


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## arizonajirt (Apr 5, 2011)

Im not exactly sure what you are asking here. are you asking what units that you should not use or units that you dont want to play against?


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## rtthg6 (Nov 27, 2011)

its not use


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

Hawks aren't all that bad. Sure they are over priced a bit, but so is most of the codex nowadays. They do have a reasonably ranged gun, even though it is pretty weak. They also can be pretty handy with a haywire grenade. 

Not great, just not "Plague" in my book.


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## Insanity (Oct 25, 2011)

I've actually read a really good guide for using a techamarine and a few servitors that will destroy lots of your opponents stuff.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Insanity72 said:


> I've actually read a really good guide for using a techamarine and a few servitors that will destroy lots of your opponents stuff.


Though for obvious reasons you're biased.


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## bobahoff (Nov 24, 2011)

I'm gonna say sanguinary guard squads and death company sanguinary guard though useful get abused by everything on the board and you really have to choose you battles carefully 

Death company are just a pain because all though yes they are incredibly powerful they are too easy for your opponent to lead


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## arlins (Sep 8, 2010)

Techmarines arnt really bad , it dep on how you use them .
definatly not a " avoid like the plague unit"
Chaos spawn and the old necron pariahs are/were quite bad ( though thats my personal 
view )


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Not this crap again..... *sighs*

There are no bad units, only bad players. 

Every unit has its use. If you think its a bad unit, its because your clueless about how to use it properly to its full potential. 

Take Necron Scarabs. Argueable one of the most usefull units in the codex that litterally every competative player takes at least one squad of. Recently I've seen people whining about them being swarms and weak and dying before you can even get them into combat. If they were so crappy, why does every competative player take them? Answer.... You suck at playing them.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

OK, I pretty much agree with GrizBe, but think some units miss what was intended of them by the writers... but I think we could turn this thread from a rant into something more helpful.
I'm going to list a few units I think don't really have a place on the table and the reasons why I think that. Then if anyone can tell me why I'm wrong or how they could be useful it might be helpful. Similarly I'll try to point out how other peoples' 'useless' units could be used.

Pyrovore- its an expensive flamer with a single power weapon attack which needs a transport to get close enough to work... in an army that has loads of cheap large blast options and throws out masses of poisoned 4+, rending and/or MC attacks. Possibly a fun option, but not when I have to shell out that much to get the model.

Lictors- +1 to reserve rolls for a unit that starts in reserve (and doesn't give the bonus till it turns up)... bit rubbish really. I've used them as a distraction unit and homer for my harpy/snot pods but they really don't have the impact or the role they had in the old rules.

Beasts of Nurgle- they're plaguebearers... nice models in their own way but since they are basically twice the cost of PBs, twice as deadly with twice the wounds but can't score. Nice idea, not a bad unit, but why bother?



On the other hand I quite like techmarines. Shove him in a deathstar type land raider unit to make sure they get across the board or on a bike as part of a mechanised army (just hide him behind vehicles and move him to repair as needed). As a bonus you could just shove him in with 5 servitors as a cheap anti-tank unit (6 models all making an S8 attack is pretty nasty) and then you can bolster defenses to give your marines a 3+ cover save in an important area (such as around an objective).
... I can't really think of a reason why anyone _wouldn't_ use a techmarine in larger games, and doubly so if you have scouts for objective holding.


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## Moonschwine (Jun 13, 2011)

The problem is you can't label something "must be avoided". This kills fluff armies, and means streamlining codexes back to the pamphlet 3rd ed era which was not fun at all. After all what's the point of writing a stats or fluff for something that would never be used?

Anyway, I'll take the spirit of this thread to be "things that aren't worth taking in your opinion"

For me it's chaos lords and raptors. I love them to death, run several lists with them in but by Jove spare yourselves the disappointment I have faced...


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

GrizBe said:


> Not this crap again..... *sighs*
> 
> There are no bad units, only bad players.


That's wrong.

If as an example we had a Space Marine Tactical Squad that cost the usual points per model, had the same options, stats and so on and then there was a similar unit that cost significantly more points per model with only one small added skill or option that wasn't overly useful then it'd be a bad unit, there's no getting around that.



> Every unit has its use. If you think its a bad unit, its because your clueless about how to use it properly to its full potential.


That's a pretty bold statement. So if someone considers a unit bad they're just not smart enough to "get it"? Do you find your ears pop when you get on that high horse?

---

When people say a unit is "bad" or "unusable" nobody actually means that there's no role that the unit can fulfill. Even Pyrovores, arguably the worst unit in the game have a tactical use (namely setting light and medium infantry on fire). What the important bit is is that when you consider the Pyrovore's point cost, the FOC slot it occupies (therefore making you unable to take a more useful unit in that slot) and intended niche you quickly come to realize that the Pyrovore has no place in any list that's intending to win games as a high priority. So yeah, in a vaccuum where you put on the blinders and ignore the realities of the tabletop then sure, the Pyrovore is a fine unit for killing infantry. It's just that in practice it doesn't actually provide an army with anything useful relative to the resources that it consumes and is therefore "useless".


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

There are totally bad units, units which everyone forgets about. I will submit for your consideration Furies of Chaos. They cost the same as Flesh Hounds and are Fast Attack, They have 1 point less Weapon Skill and Initiative compared to Flesh Hounds, don't have Furious Charge (or Blessing of the Blood God). Now they are Jump Infantry compared to being Beasts so you think that might be worth it but no, both units are Close Combat only and with Hounds having Fleet they are actually faster at getting into combat that Furies. 

Here's the best part, they are worse than Flesh Hounds in almost every way bar a few contrived circumstances and Flesh Hounds are so bad that they never make it into lists either. They are worse than a unit which is considered so bad it never gets used.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

GrizBe said:


> Not this crap again..... *sighs*
> 
> There are no bad units, only bad players.
> 
> Every unit has its use. If you think its a bad unit, its because your clueless about how to use it properly to its full potential


Your kind is annoying. You think you're so good, why don't you play an army full of nothing but Vespid and Swooping Hawks and Stealth Suits and Ethereals and Chaos Dreadnoughts and Chaos Spawn, then we'll see how hot you are.

What you said is false, and you are a troll. 40K is full of shit units.

On topic: Vespid currently represent the epitome of crappiness. In fact, like I've said before, If there was a boarding school for the retarded units of 40K, _Vespid would be giving classes to Swooping Hawks_ on the subject of "how to suck".


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

Katie Drake said:


> That's a pretty bold statement. So if someone considers a unit bad they're just not smart enough to "get it"? Do you find your ears pop when you get on that high horse?


Take the Pyrovore your considering as useless.... What you have is a decent anti-infantry unit with a template attack that ignores armor saves. Okay, so in the elite slot, it has got competition for units that are arguably more usefull, but the unit is far from useless. Put them in a Spore as you can, and you've got a unit that would make a pretty good tarpit that could keep infantry off of an objective. 

Okay, maybe they aren't as usefull against non-horde type troops, but the point is they still have a use and can still dish out damage and do a job if used correctly. Hence, they're not useless. 





> Your kind is annoying. You think you're so good, why don't you play an army full of nothing but Vespid and Swooping Hawks and Stealth Suits and Ethereals and Chaos Dreadnoughts and Chaos Spawn, then we'll see how hot you are.


Considering my local store has an Eldar players who'se maxed out his swooping hawks in his army and wins at least 70% of his games, I'd not call them crap either.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

GrizBe said:


> Take the Pyrovore your considering as useless.... What you have is a decent anti-infantry unit with a template attack that ignores armor saves. Okay, so in the elite slot, it has got competition for units that are arguably more usefull, but the unit is far from useless. Put them in a Spore as you can, and you've got a unit that would make a pretty good tarpit that could keep infantry off of an objective.


The template attack has an AP, it doesn't ignore armor saves.

Arguably more useful? The Pyrovore provides no useful niche. The entire Tyranid Codex is full of units that excel at killing infantry, why would anyone take a unit that specializes in the exact thing that the entire Codex is already good at? It's a waste.

Put them in a spore, you land, maybe flame a unit if your opponent is outside a transport and then immediately get blown apart in the opponent's turn since Pyrovores are so easily killed. Tarpit? The thing has two wounds and a 4+ armor save, it isn't going to tarpit anything tougher than a unit of Grots. Guardsmen could easily kill it on the charge and it only has a single attack meaning the chances of it actually winning a combat are extremely slim.



> Okay, maybe they aren't as usefull against non-horde type troops, but the point is they still have a use and can still dish out damage and do a job if used correctly. Hence, they're not useless.


As I said before, just because a unit can do damage doesn't mean it isn't crap. You have to look at the entire picture which includes a range of things like

- Points Cost
- FOC slot (essentially, what else you're sacrificing to include the unit in your army)
- Other considerations (the number of armies that would be genuinely hurt by a Pyrovore flaming one of their units is slim, because units that are significantly hurt by a heavy flamer shot are usually numerous in the extreme, so trading a spore and an elite slot for one unit is a horrible trade).



> Considering my local store has an Eldar players who'se maxed out his swooping hawks in his army and wins at least 70% of his games, I'd not call them crap either.


So he's either significantly better than his opponents, rolls incredibly well, plays in an area where people use lots of ground pounding, lightly armored infantry units (and probably clump them up to get hit by grenade packs) or someone is screwing up the rules somewhere. One person using a unit and being successful with it isn't proof that a unit isn't crap.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

GrizBe said:


> Considering my local store has an Eldar players who'se maxed out his swooping hawks in his army and wins at least 70% of his games, I'd not call them crap either.


This just means that you all suck, not that Hawks are good. Units being bad is perspective, all units can do something Space Pope can roll dice and beat Abbadon on Close Combat, that does not mean that Space Pope is better in close combat than Abbadon, you might even say he is bad at close combat compared to Abbadon. 

Hawks are still better than Furies though.

Pyrovores are shocking though, an Elite Slot so you can pay almost 50 points for a Heavy Flamer? For the low low price of 175 points you get 3 in a Spore Pod who can lay down 3 Heavy Flamer templates, then you have to hope you're in Synapse range with your Instinctive Behaviour. And you're giving up your tank killing Elite slots for that.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

GrizBe said:


> Not this crap again..... *sighs*
> 
> There are no bad units, only bad players.
> 
> ...


Spawn, and furies. Please enlighten us into how a "good player" would use these in a army, because I'm sure half of use would like to know (Note: That replacing a model with a spawn is well documented as being stupid as its most often just a free KP)

Fact is some poorly designed units always slip through. Some are just subpar and can be used for thematic or strategic reasons. However only a idiot would claim that all units are equal or balanced. GW is not full of master statisticians/mathematicians and as such points values and rules often due not reflect the effectiveness of the models involved. Most often this is only a minor issue of say 1-2 points + or -, but other units are just poorly thought out and even GW often changes things (FaQ) after the fact because they realize they have screwed the balance on a units cost vs benefit. EX) kharn no longer hitting everything on 2+, CSM dreads wording being refined to make it so no one can argue that they turn around and shoot your own guys ect.

Now to show the error in making such a blanket statement consider the following. Two people are having a gun fight and have 200 dollars to buy a gun. The one gun fighter goes to a American store and buys a bolt action rifle (3-4th edd army with dumb unit selection), the other goes to a Russian store and buys a AK47 (Optimized 5 edd army). One can argue that it all comes down to skill, but really if both parties are equal the person that found the better deal will win. As codexies and units reflect this same kind of inequality in prices and effectiveness you should be able to see my point.

However I will admit that some units just get a bad rep, but are you really claiming a army with 30 CSM spawn would beat a maxed DE venom list? Because if we accept your idea then it should all come down to skill (It doesn't but we are assuming your not insane).


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## SavageConvoy (Sep 21, 2011)

I'm stuck in a paradox. There are no bad units, only bad players? 
The unit sucks, therefore it's bad.
A good player would never use that unit, only a bad player. 
A bad player would put in crappy units, because he is bad.
The good player would have enough sense to never use the obvious crap units.
So who's fault is it? The bad unit or the player that used them?


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Me thinks this particular paradox is caused by faulty reasoning rather then a true empirical conflict.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

And here we go again with people not reading properly....

At no point did I claim that there weren't any unbalenced units, or overcosted units, or units where there are far better options to take... The point I'm making is that every unit has its uses and can be used and prove usefull if you know how to play with it. 

I'm not a chaos player, and at my local store our chaos players are strictly marine legions and we have no deamon players, so I'm not up on spawns and furies, but I'd think they'd still have some use as cannon fodder or screening units, or as a usefull distraction while executing another part of your plan. 

And with your gun analogy... Thing is, both people have still got guns, both can be used to kill people. One may fire more shots and need less maintainance, but the other is more accurate and can fire over a longer distance. Neither are useless, and if you know how to use them properly, both can be effective and better in some situations then others.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

GrizBe said:


> And here we go again with people not reading properly....
> 
> At no point did I claim that there weren't any unbalenced units, or overcosted units, or units where there are far better options to take... The point I'm making is that every unit has its uses and can be used and prove usefull if you know how to play with it.
> 
> ...


But some suituations are more likely to crop up than others, requiring more contrivance to get use out of them.

There are still "bad" units in that they are less useful, but there are no "bad" units in that no unit is entirely useless.

Is that what you are trying to say?


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Bacause that would be less offensive and actally sounds reasonable. Also note that unless you have a understanding or copy of every codex your authority on claiming their are no useless or bad units goes in the crapper real fast. Its like saying their are no flying squirrels because of the 30 species of squirrels I have seen none of them fly. Half of the people you are arguing against do in fact have digital copies of every codex, and have looked through them. Now go find a competent CSM player and ask if he can find a use for a unit that you can't control that costs 30 points random movement, and no save at all at I3. 

Just face the facts any blanket statement is inherently false because it assumes that you know every fact about the situation (As you by your own admission don't). Really if you don't want to come of sounding as delusional then limit your opinion to your experience. For instance in book X, Y, Z that I have played with multiple times I can't find a single unit that is worthless. Now when you start telling people about armies they have played with for 4+ years whether something in their army is usable you better well damn know what your talking about. Notice how I don't comment on the usefulness of armies like Tau ect. Know why because I have no idea if their are any usable or unusable units in said books.

Also you know why their are no spawn in your enemies CSM armies. I'll give you a hint it has nothing to due with legions as all legions are supposed to have them...well except thousand sons. In fact most CSM players don't even consider them a unit, but just a stat line if they want to use spawn to humiliate the enemy when they GoC a 200pt+ IC.

Also just thought I would point this out, but no unit over 15+ points a model should be used as cannon fodder. This isn't fantasy, if you take a unit in a MeQ army equivalent that you plan will do nothing but buy you time, or tie a unit for 1-2 turns then you are most likely not playing the game right. Since 33.33% of missions are KP cannon fodder quickly becomes a dumb idea. In fantasy or in armies that have low cost fearless units then yes cannon fodder is a good idea..ish, but once against blanket statements are dumb, some armies just don't have any units or room for models to be sacrificed without expecting something back, and in this edition mobs of weak infantry are useless since they can be wiped in a single round of CC (Kinda the reason gaunts became so much more powerful).

Not to brag, but my win rate is 80% locally, am I the best gamer in my area? God no, but I have shit kicked everything from DE venom spam to IG vet spam, and its all down to me knowing what the hell I am doing with my army. Skill is a usfull tool, but its only one of the 3 areas that dictate victory in 40k.

Luck-Army-Skill

Any one of these factors can win a game, but blindly handicapping one element will lead to failure against a opponent (Not sure how you could handicap luck, but meh)


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## SavageConvoy (Sep 21, 2011)

Figure out an ideal situation for the ethereals or even the Space Pope, Aun'va. I'll use him as cannon fodder. Expensive cannon fodder that can make my army run off the board.

Or you could just say you over simplified something rather than trying to justify your idea that every unit regardless of cost/FOC slot/army/game can be considered useful. And just because I have something that can screen a shot, block a charge, or get one kill in does not make it useful. It has to be cost effective. If it's a blocker or a screen, it has to take enough firepower or hits to justify it's points. If it has a weapon, it better be able to get enough kills. So on and so forth.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

LukeValantine said:


> Spawn, and furies. Please enlighten us into how a "good player" would use these in a army, because I'm sure half of use would like to know (Note: That replacing a model with a spawn is well documented as being stupid as its most often just a free KP).


this is how you use spawn 
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=102483

jsut helping 

khrone


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

khrone forever said:


> this is how you use spawn
> http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=102483
> 
> jsut helping
> ...


I only read the section about Spawn, but that's terrible advice and I feel bad for anyone that buys Spawn models because of reading that thread.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Here we go again, X unit sucks! Y units sucks! Never take it! Why bother? Who writes this crap? Your stupid! No your stupid! ....


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## SavageConvoy (Sep 21, 2011)

I thought rioting made it so we could acquire nice things at a very reasonable price, provided you flee with sufficient urgency.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

khrone forever said:


> this is how you use spawn
> http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=102483
> 
> jsut helping
> ...


So... just ignore all of their weaknesses and over-inflate their "strengths"? (or as I like to call them "the not AS shitty parts")

I'll just take this one statement here:



retarded advice for using Chaos Spawn said:


> spawn pose a legitimate threat in close combat.


 No, they do NOT. Statistically they will do 0.98 wounds when charging a squad of Guard Infantry less against Fire Warriors (0.74). The Guard Infantry will do 1.98 to it in the same initiative and do the remaining wounds to it in the following assault phase. The Fire Warriors will also win combat both rounds. It can't win combat (the _only_ thing it is equipped to do), while initiating assault against fucking FIRE WARRIORS!!!!!



> I'm not a chaos player, and at my local store our chaos players are strictly marine legions and we have no deamon players, so I'm not up on spawns and furies...


At this point you should really stop talking.


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## ohiocat110 (Sep 15, 2010)

Obviously no unit is useless, but many are hideously overpriced. The Pyrovore is basic math. It's worse than a Marine Scout's statline and wargear (15 points) with a heavy flamer (10) and Power weapon (15), with the instinctive behavior disadvantage. At the absolute most it should cost 40 points, and probably 35. Meaning it's overpriced by nearly 25%. That's a massive handicap in a game where every point matters for army building. 

Every army has units that are competitively bad, but the Pyrovore stands out as an example of just plain bad math.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

DeathKlokk said:


> No, they do NOT. Statistically they will do 0.98 wounds when charging a squad of Guard Infantry less against Fire Warriors (0.74). The Guard Infantry will do 1.98 to it in the same initiative and do the remaining wounds to it in the following assault phase. The Fire Warriors will also win combat both rounds. It can't win combat (the _only_ thing it is equipped to do), while initiating assault against fucking FIRE WARRIORS!!!!!


Exactly. If someone can look at these numbers and still think that Spawn are a decent unit then they need to find another game to play because there's no hope.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

I'm thinking we have a case of "big fish small pond" coupled with an overactive sense of conceit.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Exactly. If someone can look at these numbers and still think that Spawn are a decent unit then they need to find another game to play because there's no hope.


Keep in mind that those numbers are for 20 man guard squads, they would totally beat a 10 man squad.......nah I'm just shitting you they suck in general.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

DeathKlokk said:


> So... just ignore all of their weaknesses and over-inflate their "strengths"? (or as I like to call them "the not AS shitty parts")
> 
> No, they do NOT. Statistically they will do 0.98 wounds when charging a squad of Guard Infantry less against Fire Warriors (0.74). The Guard Infantry will do 1.98 to it in the same initiative and do the remaining wounds to it in the following assault phase. The Fire Warriors will also win combat both rounds. It can't win combat (the _only_ thing it is equipped to do), while initiating assault against fucking FIRE WARRIORS!!!!!





Katie Drake said:


> Exactly. If someone can look at these numbers and still think that Spawn are a decent unit then they need to find another game to play because there's no hope.




For 120pts you get 9 T5 Wounds, possibly 18 S5 Attacks.

So spawn are hitting on 4+ Wounding on 3+ on most units, getting 9 Attacks average, that's roughly two saveable wounds caused.

As you both say, not good.


But still, what's the big frickin deal? If someone wants to use 120pts on three of these it's not the end of the world.

Against someone unfamiliar with Chaos they might cause a bit of stir, and let's not forget they are still 9 Wound T/S 5 fearless creatures Fleeting towards your lines with a possible 24" charge range, dealing possibly 18 Attack + 3 more when they charge. Also they don't take up a Force Organization slot so its not like your gimping yourself in that sense.

In all honesty its not necessarily a bad starting position for a unit rules wise, it just needs a few tweaks (basically get rid of mindless, and make it ignore armour, or give it FNP) and the unit would be pretty awesome and fluffy IMO. 


(Plus, they are pretty fun when you get them from Gift of Chaos or Boon of Mutation in Objective games (unfortunately they are a kill point, that could be removed aswell).


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

Really there are no units that you avoid like the bubonic plague. Just avoid like that wilted piece of broccoli that you push to the side of your plate and forget exists...


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

LukeValantine said:


> Keep in mind that those numbers are for 20 man guard squads, they would totally beat a 10 man squad.......nah I'm just shitting you they suck in general.


No that IS a 10-man squad. 12 attacks, 6 hits,1.98 wounds to the unarmored Spawn.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

D-A-C said:


> For 120pts you get 9 T5 Wounds, possibly (a 0.46% chance) 18 S5 Attacks.
> 
> So spawn are hitting on 4+ Wounding on 3+ on most units, getting 9 Attacks average, that's roughly two saveable wounds caused. (Almost a whopping 2 dead Guardmen!)
> 
> ...


I thought I'd break down your "possibles" to actual numbers for you. Not an attack, D-A-C, just want to put all that wishing into perspective.


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## TheSpore (Oct 15, 2009)

If you ask me your all crazy, spawn are a very useful unit, that kit gives way to so many conversion oppurtunities for other awesome units, oh you guys meant game wise, yeah ther pretty damn worthless!

I have to go with the majority here, there are just some units that are pretty damn useless, I cannot say anything about pyrovores, because I don't play nids nor have I ever seen one used (must mean something). When I look at my daemon army I see the entry for furies and I do see a use in them, but Im sorry there are so many others units that really out weigh them such as, seekers and fiends. 

If I want label any unit useless it would be a Slaanesh Herald without a mount, I can get more out of a herald of nurgle than I can out that and BoN are dumb IMO as well. if your going to use something big and intimidating as a sacrifical unit then you wanna go with something big and ugly like the great unclean one, the wound soaker of all wound soakers only second to his big cuzz Ku Gath and CSM havocs, they cost too much to field and you get way better shooting out of oblitz than you ever will out of a havoc unit.


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## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

DeathKlokk said:


> I thought I'd break down your "possibles" to actual numbers for you. Not an attack, D-A-C, just want to put all that wishing into perspective.


DeathKlokk how do you not know me by now?:


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

DeathKlokk said:


> No that IS a 10-man squad. 12 attacks, 6 hits,1.98 wounds to the unarmored Spawn.


Spawn are T5, guard are S3... so without meaning to you've effectively done 20 guardsmen.
But even 10 guard should draw each round with the spawn, and it'll die from attrition first.

Spawn are almost irredeemably crap and awful... I say almost because they DO have a use. _That's right_, they aren't entirely without merit!!
The only good spawn I can think of is a free spawn: change Marneus Calgar into a spawn, laugh and then laugh more as your slimy new spawn either gets shot at (waste of ammo) or manages to get lucky enough to survive a round of combat and tarpits an enemy for a turn.
Pure win 


I think this whole thread boils down to GrizBe saying that a good player can find a way to make the most of a bad unit and everyone else saying that they are still bad units.
I think there is a distinction to be made between units many people regard as rubbish but which perform well in the right hands, and units which really are crap. Best example I can think of is the necron wraith back int he old rules: anyone who had used 1-3 in a single unit probably thought they were pretty fecking useless... but design an army around them and run a wraithwing and they were nasty (though admittedly I wish I could immediately think of a current example that was as good).


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

Yraaaaaww unhun[/Chewbaca voice]










Crap, T/S I was doing the math wrong yes. they still do 0.96 compared to the Spawn doing 0.98. That's assuming the Spawn gets to the Guard, which it won't.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

DeathKlokk said:


> So... just ignore all of their weaknesses and over-inflate their "strengths"? (or as I like to call them "the not AS shitty parts")
> 
> I'll just take this one statement here:
> 
> ...



first off, thanks for the nice post.

second, i didnt say i actually thought that they were usefull, just this is somewhere to find something to do with spawn should you choose to field them.

if you have such strong feelings that that thread is wrong, why dont you just post on that thread rather than shooting the messenger.

khrone


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## Minizke1 (Feb 7, 2010)

Moonschwine said:


> Anyway, I'll take the spirit of this thread to be "things that aren't worth taking in your opinion"


That was the intention


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Units that I, a competitive player, avoid at all costs?

Orks.
Eldar, barring Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons, Wave Serpents, Falcons, Fire Prisms, Vypers, Eldrad, Yriel, Farseers, Autarchs, Warp Spiders, Storm Guardians.
Chaos Space Marines, barring Plague Marines, Kharn, Dreadnoughts, Rhinos, Obliterators, Predators, Havocs, Chosen, Raptors.
Calgar, Tigerius, Sicarius, Chapter Masters, SM Honour Guard, SM Vanguard, Thunderfire Cannons, SM Scout Squads without Telion, Chronus, SM Vindicators, Whirlwinds (any flavour,) Land Raiders (any and all, with I suppose the exception of Dark Angels in a 1500 or less game,) SM Devastators, SM Assault Marines, anything in the DA book that isn't Deathwing/Ravenwing/Tacticals/Ezekiel/Azrael/Land Raider Crusaders/Razorbacks/Rhinos/Predators/Venerable Dreadnoughts, Ironclad Dreadnoughts, Furioso Dreadnoughts inc Librarians, Death Company, Death Company Dreadnoughts, SM Terminator Squad (not Terminator Assault!) Eversor Assassins, Brotherhood Champions, GK Brother Captains, Mordrak and Ghost Knights, Lycheguard, Triarch Praetorians, Monoliths, Ethereals, Vespid, Hammerheads with Ion Cannons, Sniper Drones, Drone Squadrons, Kroot Ox, Lictors, Pyrovores, Parasite of Mortrex, Doom of Malan'Tai, Rippper Swarms, Necron Special Characters bar Orikan and Anrakyr, arguably Imotekh I grant, Mawlocs, Biovores, Pyrovores, Rough Riders, Ogyrns, Techpriest Enginseers, Basilisks, Lema Russ Vanquishers, Chenkov, Stealth Suits, ...

Fuck it, my arm hurts after that. Suffice it to say, we're about half-way there.


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## Kale Hellas (Aug 26, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> Units that I, a competitive player, avoid at all costs?
> 
> Orks.
> Eldar, barring Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons, Wave Serpents, Falcons, Fire Prisms, Vypers, Eldrad, Yriel, Farseers, Autarchs, Warp Spiders, Storm Guardians.
> ...


you wrote pyrovores twice, but they are really that bad i guess


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## broran (Feb 1, 2011)

pyrovore can be used to great effect if user right its just over shadowed by the need for zoans hive guard and the DoM. the the major avoid in my book is flayed ones


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## CraftworldSurathin (Dec 18, 2011)

TheKingElessar said:


> Units that I, a competitive player, avoid at all costs?
> 
> Eldar, barring Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons, Wave Serpents, Falcons, Fire Prisms, Vypers, Eldrad, Yriel, Farseers, Autarchs, Warp Spiders, Storm Guardians.


I would add War Walkers and Guardian Jetbikes to the 'good' list, but that is arguable.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Everyone has their own bad units list, and then there are units that have a consensus on their general unplayability. Elessar is doing the latter which is fine.


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## GiftofChaos1234 (Jan 27, 2009)

Katie Drake said:


> Exactly. If someone can look at these numbers and still think that Spawn are a decent unit then they need to find another game to play because there's no hope.


I know i dont spend heaps of time of the forums here, but: you may be right
but there's no need to be a dick about it.

hell, i mean i think spawn are bloody useless, but if someone decides to use them for fun or whatever reason, then good for them.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> Units that I, a competitive player, avoid at all costs?
> 
> Orks.
> Eldar, barring Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons, Wave Serpents, Falcons, Fire Prisms, Vypers, Eldrad, Yriel, Farseers, Autarchs, Warp Spiders, Storm Guardians.
> ...


Woah, lot of hate coming from TKE there... anyway I disagree with a few of those at least:
Doom of Malan'tai is OP unless playing a full-mech army, if it does work its just fecking evil.
Biovores are the best unit in the nid dex. 135pts to start raining down 3 S4 AP4 large blasts a turn; probably _the_ best and cheapest anti-hoard unit in the game. I limit myself to 1 unit just to avoid being cheesy... 

As for necron SCs: Imhotek is a cheesy bastard witha stupid name that I refuse to use, but he is a key feature to the cheesiest necron army (imotek, 2 solar pulses and laughter at anyone who has guns with range greater then 18") and Obyron is up there with Anrakyr as best SCs: super-veil without an overlord and pure death on a stick for anyone who can't get through his T5 2+ defense.


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## Nicholas Hadrian (Mar 20, 2011)

Ok, units I personally can't use well and try not to take?

One word.

Sternguard.

I know it's crazy, but the fact is, in two entirely seperate games, two diffrent squads of Sternguard completely wiped themselves out WITH THEIR OWN AMMUNITION.

I haven't touched them since.

But then again, that's my luck in a nutshell innit?


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> Woah, lot of hate coming from TKE there... anyway I disagree with a few of those at least:
> Doom of Malan'tai is OP unless playing a full-mech army, if it does work its just fecking evil.
> Biovores are the best unit in the nid dex. 135pts to start raining down 3 S4 AP4 large blasts a turn; probably _the_ best and cheapest anti-hoard unit in the game. I limit myself to 1 unit just to avoid being cheesy...
> 
> As for necron SCs: Imhotek is a cheesy bastard witha stupid name that I refuse to use, but he is a key feature to the cheesiest necron army (imotek, 2 solar pulses and laughter at anyone who has guns with range greater then 18") and Obyron is up there with Anrakyr as best SCs: super-veil without an overlord and pure death on a stick for anyone who can't get through his T5 2+ defense.


Doom may be great against Foot lists, but it dies to a single Krak Missile. Do Not Want.

Biovores do something [very well, but] you don't need doing in a slot where you are forced to take anti-tank cos Nids get fuck all outside of Elites.

I don't believe in Cheese, I believe in taking a Balanced list, and learning to play better - that aside, Necrons aren't the most formidable close-range army, so I find that army build somewhat counter-intuitive... you don't want to engage Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Tyranids or Space Wolves in midfield, for sure - and the latter get a re-roll on 'spotting' distance anyway. Oh, and free Searchlights. Like IG and SM. Basically, while Night Fighting is a good ability, it's not the most reliable, and trying to make it your list's 'thing' is unreliable at best.

As for Vargard Obyron - taking a massive unit just to make the 'porting worthwhile means a huge points investment in something that then has a huge footprint to easily mishap, and he wastes an HQ that could've unlocked a Royal Court, while also not being a cheap character. If T5 and 2+ is an issue, then run more Plasma.

@Nicholas Hadrian - that's because you use the worst Ammo type?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

GiftofChaos1234 said:


> I know i dont spend heaps of time of the forums here, but: you may be right
> but there's no need to be a dick about it.


If people are offended by that they need thicker skin.



> hell, i mean i think spawn are bloody useless, but if someone decides to use them for fun or whatever reason, then good for them.


I might've ended up deleting the post in which I said this, so I'll say it again here:

I don't care if people decide to take Spawn in their armies. I do care when people tell others that they're a good or usable unit.


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## OddJob (Nov 1, 2007)

Tim/Steve said:


> Woah, lot of hate coming from TKE there... anyway I disagree with a few of those at least:
> Doom of Malan'tai is OP unless playing a full-mech army, if it does work its just fecking evil.
> Biovores are the best unit in the nid dex. 135pts to start raining down 3 S4 AP4 large blasts a turn; probably _the_ best and cheapest anti-hoard unit in the game. I limit myself to 1 unit just to avoid being cheesy...


Thing is, both of these choices help nids against stuff they are already strong against- boots on the ground, without having any use against stuff nids are bad against- tracks on the ground.

I agree that they are really decent and would be a definate pick in lot's of dex's, just not in the nid dex.

That being said, both are far from being unplayable.

p.s. Spawn are beyond awful, and if you use them you are probably swimming in the shallow end of the genepool. With armbands on. When there is no water in the pool.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> Doom may be great against Foot lists, but it dies to a single Krak Missile. Do Not Want.
> 
> Biovores do something [very well, but] you don't need doing in a slot where you are forced to take anti-tank cos Nids get fuck all outside of Elites.
> 
> ...


Doom is a flamer of tzeentch with better DS ability (thanks to the snot pod) and who with a likely 6-10 wounds and 3++ he survives far better. Apart from lack of a soul I can't think of a reason not to take him... well, other then sacrificing 1/3 of your mainline anti-tank.

I don't take any heavy support other then a unit of biovores... trygons/primes don't interest me and the other choices are just rubbish.

Obyron is best in small points games where he gives a veil for cheap and will be able to beat almost anything except for powerfists and MCs. Less useful in bigger games, but having faced him I can tell you he's still pretty bloody evil. I also wouldn't put him in a massive unit: I use a veil with 10 immortals, but if I took Obyron I'd switch up to 5 lychguard with shield... throw that at the enemy just as all your guns get into range and they have a massive headache.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Tim/Steve said:


> Doom is a flamer of tzeentch with better DS ability (thanks to the snot pod) and who with a likely 6-10 wounds and 3++ he survives far better. Apart from lack of a soul I can't think of a reason not to take him... well, other then sacrificing 1/3 of your mainline anti-tank.
> 
> I don't take any heavy support other then a unit of biovores... trygons/primes don't interest me and the other choices are just rubbish.
> 
> Obyron is best in small points games where he gives a veil for cheap and will be able to beat almost anything except for powerfists and MCs. Less useful in bigger games, but having faced him I can tell you he's still pretty bloody evil. I also wouldn't put him in a massive unit: I use a veil with 10 immortals, but if I took Obyron I'd switch up to 5 lychguard with shield... throw that at the enemy just as all your guns get into range and they have a massive headache.


I second that sentiment on Obyron. He is great at <1250. In small tough units, or in large units solely for porting and increasing their CC survivability. At 1500> not so much because people tend to run double courts at that level. However he is one of the only necron models that can wipe a entire marine unit single handedly if the enemy doesn't know what they are doing. In short he is competitive at the listed points total, but becomes just ok at mid to higher range point games.


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## Eleven (Nov 6, 2008)

GrizBe said:


> Not this crap again..... *sighs*
> 
> There are no bad units, only bad players.
> 
> ...


If you think there are no bad units, then you arn't thinking, and may be a noob when it comes to army composition. 

Imagine a hypothetical situation. GWS makes a unit that costs 1500 points, has no save, can't move, and it's entire stat line is 1 in every category including leadership. It also has no weapons. Is that a bad unit? If you agree that it is, then you admit that it is possible for a unit to be bad. The question is then, how bad does it have to be to be unusable?

I think there are several units that are too bad to be used ever, and most codices have at least 1 of these.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Eleven said:


> If you think there are no bad units, then you arn't thinking, and may be a noob when it comes to army composition.
> 
> Imagine a hypothetical situation. GWS makes a unit that costs 1500 points, has no save, can't move, and it's entire stat line is 1 in every category including leadership. It also has no weapons. Is that a bad unit? If you agree that it is, then you admit that it is possible for a unit to be bad. The question is then, how bad does it have to be to be unusable?
> 
> I think there are several units that are too bad to be used ever, and most codices have at least 1 of these.


All he's saying is that all units have an intended role and can, in some small way, influence the outcome of the game.

That doesn't mean that all units should be taken though, at least assuming that you're trying to optimize your list.


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## OrdoMalleus (Apr 24, 2009)

Culexeus Assasin: Nice stat line, but no PW really hurts him. Right......., so Im paying how many points for a str.5 meltagun (without the 2d6!)....Ward WTF!

To try and avoid all the conflict above, not saying he is a"bad" unit, but he does nothing that cannot be done elsewhere better for cheaper.

EDIT: Probably should not have posted this halfway through other peoples rants.....


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

OrdoMalleus said:


> Culexeus Assasin: Nice stat line, but no PW really hurts him. Right......., so Im paying how many points for a str.5 meltagun (without the 2d6!)....Ward WTF!
> 
> To try and avoid all the conflict above, not saying he is a"bad" unit, but he does nothing that cannot be done elsewhere better for cheaper.
> 
> EDIT: Probably should not have posted this halfway through other peoples rants.....


A Culexus once charged 8 of my Fire Warriors with 2 drones. He managed to wound 1 which I saved, the drones took two wounds off him, I won the combat and he got splattered. We laughed.

EDIT: Throwing another unit into the quarantine for badness: Mandrakes. They are completely redundant elite choice, way too expensive, and have a schizo idea as their basis.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Mandrakes offer little, I concur - but they are the only DE method of defending vs Scout moves and Infiltrators.

That IS a role they uniquely fill.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

TheKingElessar said:


> Mandrakes offer little, I concur - but they are the only DE method of defending vs Scout moves and Infiltrators.
> 
> That IS a role they uniquely fill.


Well, planning for something that specific means:

either

1) You are terrible and will lose 99% of games
2) You are list tailoring against someone you know will use it, therefore both terrible and a douche


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## Imwookie2 (Jul 14, 2010)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Well, planning for something that specific means:
> 
> either
> 
> ...





I wouldnt really call scout moves "something that specific". Many armies make use of scout moves, so taking one squad of mandrakes to counter that isnt always a bad idea.

Please note im not trying to argue that mandrakes are good, im just saying sometimes they can be useful.


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## bobahoff (Nov 24, 2011)

Imwookie2 said:


> I wouldnt really call scout moves "something that specific". Many armies make use of scout moves, so taking one squad of mandrakes to counter that isnt always a bad idea.
> 
> Please note im not trying to argue that mandrakes are good, im just saying sometimes they can be useful.


Agreed there tailoring your force to a specific role would befilling an army list with lascannons because the only person you ever face has loads of landraiders/monoliths or loads of flamers for hordes. Taking a squad for infiltrate/scouts which is a pretty common special rule is more like covering your bases. 

Still wouldn't take them though


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## Loli (Mar 26, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> EDIT: Throwing another unit into the quarantine for badness: Mandrakes. They are completely redundant elite choice, way too expensive, and have a schizo idea as their basis.


Im in agreement with this. Mandrakes arent that good, i wouldnt mind if they had poisoned, power weapons just something. Then i would take them but the huge lack of anything sucks, not even as an upgrade. Whem the dex was coming out and there plenty of rumours and such i was hoping they would be a DE Genestealer. Instead a stealer is actualy 1 pt cheaper, is troop and have a better stat line than Mandrakes.

Wouldnt say its much in the way of useless but sure as hell nothing id take volunatrily


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

Am I the only one to see these sort of threads, or hear similar comments and then see it as a challenge to use the unit successfully? 
One of the major reasons for starting WE and necrons was that most of my local players thought they were utterly unusable... till I showed them how wrong they were 

Of course, I'm not going to bother spending vast amounts of money on a unit that is totally without redemption... or at least isn't funny.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Tim/Steve said:


> Am I the only one to see these sort of threads, or hear similar comments and then see it as a challenge to use the unit successfully?
> One of the major reasons for starting WE and necrons was that most of my local players thought they were utterly unusable...


Exactly my reason for originally starting a Daemonhunters army.


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## bobahoff (Nov 24, 2011)

I'm not good enough or rich enough for a challenging army

Hence I have 2 matt ward armies


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

bobahoff said:


> I'm not good enough or rich enough for a challenging army
> 
> Hence I have 2 matt ward armies


Epic comment, have rep.


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## bobahoff (Nov 24, 2011)

Just a quick one on wierd points costings what about IG storm troopers

For 5 points less than an SM tactical squad you get something worse than a scout squad is this just me or has any one else noticed this


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## Samules (Oct 13, 2010)

bobahoff said:


> Just a quick one on wierd points costings what about IG storm troopers
> 
> For 5 points less than an SM tactical squad you get something worse than a scout squad is this just me or has any one else noticed this


They may not be the best but 2 BS 4 Plasma or Melta DSing and re-rolling scatter for just over a hundred points and even with AP3 Lasguns can pretty easily drop some devestators or an artillery vehicle. They even have 4+ armor and pistol/CC weapon to hold up non CC dedicated units for a turn or two.


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## Svartmetall (Jun 16, 2008)

I like the ideas of Possessed so much I try to find ways to use them despite what everyone says. And since I have all the natural tactical ability of a Weetabix anyway, it doesn't adversely affect my gaming 'cos I can't get any worse than I already am


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## HOGGLORD (Jan 25, 2012)

Hoard 'em and swarm whatever poor sod has got the biggest infantry gun/objective holder/anything that happens to piss you off! :biggrin: It's expensive, but deadly


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Well, planning for something that specific means:
> 
> either
> 
> ...


Haha. Well, I will still always consider taking a tiny unit to fill points at the end, just like with Ratlings.

After all, Scouting Baals can mess up DE no end.


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

BA Techmarines are awesome. Take a unit of scouts with Sniper rifles, camo cloaks, and a missile launcher. Combined with the techmarine's Bolster defences they now get a 2+ cover save.  That's 150 points for an elite AND troop unit that get's a 2+ cover save. Get the techmarine a jump pack (free) and a thunder hammer. Watch him run around wrecking enemy tanks.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I'd rather give the Techmarine a free Conversion Beamer and camp him with the Scouts - call me when he does that.


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## Skari (Dec 20, 2011)

Units to avoid... hmmm. Can I name a character? Like the decapitator from the DE book. 
Or drone squadrons from the Tau book.
Or any sort of blood claw.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Drone squadrons are great, nowhere near as bad as anything else mentioned in this thread, though I agree on Decrappytator.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Huh? Drone Squadrons are one of the easiest KPs around, for virtually no reward to the Tau player.

Oh noes, you tried to pin my LD9/LD10/Fearless units. Watch as I get a free assault move since you're not worth even shooting down. :/

At least Sniper Drones have SOME mitigating benefits, but Drone Squadrons take away valuable Piranha/Pathfinder slots.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

DSing Drones work well on weak backfield armor though.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

In what way? They Glance most rears on 5 and Pen on 6, sure - but that's not actually good - and despite being TL, aren't accurate, quite apart from the fact that they've short ranged weapons and therefore may Scatter and Mishap.

Honestly, I'd ignore them if an opponent tried to use them that way, if they DID drop in, they'd get their free shot, then get eaten as easily as ever.


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## effigy22 (Jun 29, 2008)

Got to page 5, and all i could think of was THIS

So next thread: "Threads to avoid like the Bubonic Plague?"


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

DeathKlokk said:


> DSing Drones work well on weak backfield armor though.


Only against stupid opponents who do not park their tanks in such a way as to deny rear armor shots. I like to park tanks with their rear armor up against walls, hills, or even my board edge for this.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

Well, Guard armor is the same back and side. that's mainly what I was thinking.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Even so DK, S5 isn't good anti-tank.


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## Tim/Steve (Jan 25, 2009)

S5-6 is pretty solid at anti-tank if you have enough shots. That was almost all of the anti-tank I had in my old necron army and yet I had no issues with tanks... the question is, do you have to take so many drones to make it effectively worthwhile that it is no longer worthwhile points wise. I don't reall have a view on drones, but you could take them as a CC unit... hell, its better then trying to do it with tau


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

Can't believe the Doom was mentioned in this thread.

When I play with friends, it is avoided like the plague, but only because we have a friends rule whereby we agree never to use it. That's because as soon as a player arrives with any sort of strong quantity of infantry, then the Doom immediately becomes way OP. I mean... way OP...

For me, I would like to take it. I disagree that it's SO OP. But that's because I see it as an easy kill. It's not very tough at all.

But then I play an Ork player and ruin his whole army as soon as the Doom turns up and I immediately have sympathy.


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## Baltar (Aug 16, 2008)

As for techmarines: I have used them and seen them used to excellent effect. You can cobble together a unit that spits out a shitton of firepower against the right kind of enemies, and it isn't that expensive. It's a rare choice, but I wouldn't say it was to be avoided. I'd say it isn't to be used unless the time is right, at which point it becomes a precious gem.


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## Ravner298 (Jun 3, 2011)

> When I play with friends, it is avoided like the plague, but only because we have a friends rule whereby we agree never to use it. That's because as soon as a player arrives with any sort of strong quantity of infantry, then the Doom immediately becomes way OP. I mean... way OP...


If you're completely mech'd up, or play an army that can afford to spread out (alot) it's not a big deal, but against other armies, when it shows up the damage it does before you can even touch it is ridiculous for its points.

But all in all it's not too aggrivating considering its one of the only (if THE only) things in the nid dex that's even worthy of gripeing about.


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

SavageConvoy said:


> I'm stuck in a paradox. There are no bad units, only bad players?
> The unit sucks, therefore it's bad.
> A good player would never use that unit, only a bad player.
> A bad player would put in crappy units, because he is bad.
> ...


I think you're beginning to see through the elitist arrogance of some posters.
Glad I'm not the only one.

So...
Ya, every unit has its use. Some players just have different playing styles, so they use some units more effectively than others.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Vrykolas2k said:


> I think you're beginning to see through the elitist arrogance of some posters.
> Glad I'm not the only one.
> 
> So...
> Ya, every unit has its use. Some players just have different playing styles, so they use some units more effectively than others.


Find me a Viable use for Chaos Spawn, Posessed or Blood Claws that cannot be done better for the same or less points by another unit in the codex. There are bad players, there are bad units. Bad players tend to use bad units.


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