# Sir_m1kes complete guide to the Lizardmen in 8th



## sir_m1ke

Howdy all :victory:

A while ago (back in the summer i think) i posted up a series of articles about my experiences and thoughts on the Lizardmen in 8e WHFB. I have recieved some messages etc. recently from people who have read one or 2 o the threads about completing the series, so here we go!

I will copy all of the separate threads into this one thread, using each post for a different section

The only section i HAVENT done is Rare choices- which is odd because i swear i did  very confusing! but i will let people ask questions about the other sections and at some point ill throw the rare section up

so in the words of the Joker...

"and here....we....go! :spiteful:


----------



## sir_m1ke

*Lords*

First of all, 8th edition is a blast. My friends and i dropped out at 6th and concentrated purely on 40k because Fantasy was...well...dull. 8th has brought pace and brutality back into warfare and i for one am glad of it! k:

The magic phase has seen a big change with the random pool of dice generated as well as the changes to IF/Miscasts which are linked and more brutal. The lizardmen have always been focussed around the slann as the centrepiece of the army and in 8th this will become even more pronounced. Kermit is the best wizard in the game (Teclis is arguably the most potent but cant match the sheer number of spells a turn the Slann can) and can dominate a magic phase

Equipping your slann

So lets look at some set-ups for him. The one image most commonly linked with the Slann is one in a temple guard unit. This provides him with a nice 2+ LOS save vs. templates as well as a solid combat unit that can charge an enemy and stil let Toad of Toad Hall do his thing. :chuffed:

This config was used in my first battle, with Warts an' all sitting in his temple guard unit:

Focus of Mastery, Focussed Rumination, Becalming Cogitation, Soul of Stone, Cupped Hands, BSB with Sun Standard of Chotec

Quite a whopper of a guy. Against a magic-heavy High Elf army and equipped with Lore of Light, he managed to miscast his first spell (and attack the LVL4 Enemy Mage ala Cupped hands) and spent the rest of the game casting Phas illumination over...and over....and over again. The buffs from the lore of light allowed me to grind my way through even the elite Elven units nicely

But the issue i had was that he wasnt very flexible, he was stuck in the middle of the temple guard and couldnt get about very quickly at all. 

So i decided next battle (again vs. high elves) to go for a flying frog of doom. set-up this time was

Focus of Mastery, Focussed Rumination, Becalming Cogitation, Higher State of Consciousness, Cupped hands, BSB, Arabian Carpet

ZOOM-ZOOM-froggy sat behind my solid line of saurus and i went for Lore of Life. By jove the Lore of Life goes with a Slann like cock and balls! the ridiculously low casting values for the spells meant i was able to chuck out 2-3 spells with a poor dice pool and almost the whole lore with a good pool. Dwellers below ate his mage (plus half the unit he was in) and throne of vines boosted everything brilliantly, one casting of awakening of the wood took a lion chariot apart and flesh to stone saurus held a prince on a moon dragon up for the entire game!

The arabian carpet let me position him where i needed the spells/Leadership/BSB the most, and Higher State meant the RBT had nothing to do but sprinkle my saurus with a light shower of arrows (casualties promptly regrown)

My big worry with this set-up is coming up against skaven or dwarves, with a high number of magical war machines. To combat this i think it may be best to ditch cupped hands (throne of vines does the job for me) and take the divine plaque of protection. 2+ ward save against all ranged attacks means it will take a pit of shades or purple sun to take me down 

Just a quick note about Becalming Cogitation. There has been a lot of debate about just how useful this is, given that it means your enemy wont miscast. I say "so what?" to these people!! It stops your enemy getting an IF on a spell you REALLY dont want to go off (Purple sun, Pit of Shades, Final Transmutation etc.) and also means your opponent has to throw a stack of dice at any high-to-cast spell just to make sure it goes off. This means less spells coming at you, letting you use your dispel dice more effectively. Plus it really increases the chance of a lose of concentration, which could neuter your opponents mage. literally :threaten:

all for 25pts?? HELL YEH :yahoo:

The other issue i have is the "Last Stand" rule. i was really hoping this would be FAQ'd for the lizzies but no luck. Now if broken in combat (very likely if he is caught by any sort of ranked unit) Kermie will be removed instantly! This worries me. I may give the BSB to a scar vet and c how tht goes, u really cant afford to lose your slann

so there you have it, my two starter builds for your slann. i intend to work my way through the army book and give my thoughts on each section and the best builds i have found so far, so stay tuned.

Oh and just to finish this section off: Oldbloods. em.....why bother? take the slann if you have the points. Scar Vets are choppy enough
IF however you really want to run an oldblood (because it is your army after all and you should never take what i say as gospel- i merely want to give advice based on my experiences) then there is no reason not to take the Blade of Realities. This is the most badass motherf***in asskicking ball-crunching cockslapping weapon in the game. Whats that? your big bad general is going to kill me? 

is that it?

my guy will DESTROY YOUR VERY SOUL :shok:

you might not think it looks like much, but remember your oldblood will likely get at least 4 hits. then all the enemy has to do is fail one out of 4 LD tests (actually very easy to do, even on LD9 or 10) and BAM the model is gone, not even killed but blasted from existence!! this is the only weapon your oldblood needs, just try and use the remaining points for a nice ward save or armour save and smile as that super-expensive enemy model is destroyed. The psychological effect alone this has on your opponent is worth the points.


----------



## sir_m1ke

*Heroes*

Firstly, lets get the special characters out of the way. Chakax, tiktaq'to and oxyotl are all hideously overcosted for their respective abilities, so avoid them at all cost. :threaten:

WIth the new changes to Comet, Tetto'eko is worth a look in as an insta-comet without having to use a power scroll, but really i feel he takes dice away from the Slann who is the important caster in the list. i personally wont use him but i wudnt put him in the "HELL NO" tray just yet 

Gor-rock intrigues me, much in the way the old character lotl-botl did (anyone else remember him? now that was a character!!) for 215pts you get a scar vet with 4+ scaly skin, re-rolls to hit (in forst combat round) and both re-rolls for wounds suffered and immunity to killing blow. then throw into the mix that he always counts as defending an obstacle, which i rule as a -1 to hit, and you have one bad-ass scaly bastard. but probably his best ability is his Stubborn rule- chuck him in a big saurus unit and BAM mini-temple guard awesomeness. try him out and see wat u think 

So with these out of the way lets get into the customisable heroes. First up we have the scar-vet. These guys are more than capable of taking on almost any hero-level character in the game (maybe watch out for the gorebulls...) and properly equipped can even give a lord-level a run for their money. not i did not say "beat" a lord level, well maybe an elf lord....:laugh:

Scar-vets are there for laying the hurt, nothing more. no subtlety, no tactics, just pure stone mace-to-face bad-assery (its a word!!). First things first is deciding what role he is to play. is he a character hunter, a unit buffer or a rank-and-file murdering machine? each has a different set up needed.

For a character hunter you need him prepped for challenges. The biggest hurdle is the low initiative, as most characters will be higher than him. For me, the Sword of the Hornet is a must for him, along with a potion of toughness. Throw in the Enchanted shield and light armour and you can hold your own. 4 S5 attacks always striking first, and then the enemy has do get past a T8 2+ save. EVen if you dont own him first round, you should stil be standing ready for next round. Oh and a wee tip, if your Slann has lore of life cast Flesh to stone on the unit to get T10 Scar Vet :victory:

The rank and file guy has no qualms about striking first. I would go with a great weapon, venom of the firefly frog, shield and light armour. Items like Carnosaur pendant and Dragonhelm are optional and can work well with this set-up

The buff guy is simply there to add weight of attacks and support his unit. DO NOT LET HIM GET CHALLENGED- he is not set up to deal death as well as his brother-roles, sacrifice a champ if you must. the item he wants is crown of command, to give you a nice solid stubborn unit of saurus.

Just think of a block of- Saurus led by Gor-rok, Temple Guard with Slann, Scar vet w/ crown in saurus- all holding your central line. 3 stubborn units that can take a hell of a beating

The last point is about a scar-vet BSB. in my Slann tactica i highlighted the danger of the "Last Stand" rule and intend to playtest the Scar Vet BSB. I have never used one before but at first glance im going to say ignore a magical banner, and go for shield and Armour of Destiny. 3+ armour save with a 4+ ward save should keep him alive and kicking to give you those all-important re-rolls. SOme of you are maybe thinking "Cold blooded is all i need, i dont need re-rolls!!" Trust me, they are incredibly useful for those times the dice go against you

The Skink Priest is up next. These guys are not, i repeat NOT about casting. they are there for channeling, extra arcane items and a back-up incase your slann loses concentration. In saying that, however, if you find yourself up against a lot of war machines aiming at your slann, take the signature spell and hex those bitches, anything to keep your slann alive is worth it

Best picks for items are dispel scroll (for getting rid of Pit of Shades primarily), diadem of power (in case you have some power dice kicking about) or go with a suicide priest and take the forbidden rod, for those phases where you NEED your magic to go off. expensive way to possibly only get 1 extra dice, but if that phase could win you the battle then do it! its all part of the Old Ones' plan...

The other option of course the Engine of the Gods. THis was essential in 7th but many players have turned away from it because the Ancient Steg cant break units anymore. My question is- WHY THE HELL IS IT BREAKING UNITS IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!??? :angry:

This bad boy will give you a good solid save against shooting and war machines turn 1/2, and after that can fry units (even those in combat) or help your slann get those spells off easier. If needs be thunderstomp some skirmishers or fast calvary or something, but for the love of Sotek keep it out of combat!! why? because any opponent worth his salt will direct every attack at the priest. That 2+ save can only save him so long, and after he pops his flippers you have lost the engines ability. The EotG had a place in my 7th list but has dropped out of 8th, but only for the time being. If you can spare 400pts, take it. But dont skimp on the SLann or the core units to accomodate one

Skink Chiefs are the last entry to go. These guys are purely there for cheap combat support or mage/warmachine hunting. The cheap combat support guy gets a magic weapon such as Burning Blade of Chotec, something to buff the unit a bit like shield of mirrored pool and then sits in a saurus unit. yes, he has to go "outside" the unit but he stil claims his Look out Sir roll and is a dirt cheap source of extra attacks.

Anyone see what im saying here? 

No??

Waste of points. For the cost of him you can get a scar vet with pure mundane weaponry who will do so much more damage.

And if anyone mentions skink cohorts i will stab them. with a snake-tongue-shaped dagger. but more on that when i get to the core 

The mage-hunter, however, is a viable option. Stick him on a terradon, give him sword of striking or (my personal fav) the spellthieving sword and watch as your opponent bunkers those mages in units. which just means they get hit by your slanns magic (Dwellers Beneath anyone??). And if they dont, swoop on in and wipe the floor with them. The same thing works against war machine crew, and small units of skirmishers. Just dont expect him to last the battle, he WILL get targetted. A magic resistance talisman might not be a bad thing for him to have

Finally- never give the BSB to a skink. Never. We arent elves, we actually have survivable characters to carry our totems around


----------



## sir_m1ke

*Core*

So we have covered our characters, now we have to look at the core choices available to us. Unlike in 40k, core choices arent necessarily the game-winning units that you MUST have to win the game, but they perform the role of providing numbers and expendibility to the army.

The lizardmen have the 2nd best core choice in the game in the saurus warrior (Warriors of Chaos are the best stats-wise, but the army sucks ass) and you will want plenty of these guys.

Some points to consider when forming your saurus units:

1) ignore horde. Horde is a gimmick to sell more models, it has very little value in a game. You tried wheeling 10 models whilst staying 1" away from all the other models? This unit moves like a morbidly obese woman in a toilet cubicle. 6-wide is ideal, so try and get your units in multiples of 6

2) a lot of lizardmen players cried and gnashed teeth at supporting attacks nerfing the spearman saurus (whine-seer was one of the worst). I missed a lot of 7th and stil remember the days of 6th edition, where saurus with spears only ever got one attack from the second rank. Now with spears they get to attack in 3 ranks! so quit with the whinging. 

3) related to that, to spear or not to spear is entirely down to your personal preference, there is no right or wrong. spears give you and extra 6 attacks a turn, whereas hw+s is a cheaper unit plus has a little bit extra survivability

4) standard and musician should ALWAYS be taken, but you all knew that already :wink: if not, get back to 40k and go pew-pew some guys to death

5) the only unit i ever run a champion in is one with a supporting scar-vet (see my heroes tactica for this loadout) to accept the challenges that fly about. otherwise, i find him to be a waste of points

6) best unit size? personally i find 24, 6x4, works the best. large and sturdy enough to take damage, easy to move and wheel and still packs a punch in cc. others may have different opinions

a tips: if you are running SLann with Lore of Life (as i recommended) then make sure to give one unit Flesh to Stone and charge them straight at the enemies hardest, killiest unit. T8 saurus (you DID remember throne of vines, right?) will not be going anywhere fast. you dont need expensive elite infantry because....well...you dont have any  this is the best you have!

in my 2250 list i run 3 units of 24, one with spears and 2 with hws (and a scar vet in each hw unit). one solid block of reptilian muscle

there isnt much more to say about saurus, they are just all-round good and should be taken in as large a number as possible

the other big ranked unit you can have is a skink cohort. i just know SOMEONE is going to try and argue that they have a place in the army, that they are a good flanking unit who serve as a kroxigor-delivery unit and that dey rulez ok?

2 words- TOUGHNESS TWO

ill repeat that. TOUGHNESS. FRICKIN. 2.

what idiot thought that a skink is less tough than a goblin? fuck me i have eaten steaks that are tougher than that.

That is why cohorts will always fail. even a small unit of skirmishers can kill enough skinks to mitigate the damage of the krox, and once you drop down to 6 skinks less your Kroxigor have toughness 2!!

dont get it? let me explain

when the unit is down to 6 skinks, these form the front rank and the 2 or 3 krox form the back rank. the enemy strikes at the skinks still, hitting their WS3 T2 ireful2 opponents. These wounds are then transfered to the BACK rank. Look at your rulebook, these are the rules people. once you hit 6 skinks (and you will!! 2 krox=16skinks, 3=24...) your krox are just 3 wound skinks.

now do you see why these are useless? yeh, thought so. leave them at home


Skink skirmishers, on the other hand, are an essential part of the army. gone are the days of endless re-directing and march blocking with them, those days of "moving half an inch to avoid a charge"-hammer are gone and WARhammer is here. They can stil do a nice flee reaction to pull an enemy out of position for a strike next turn, but their main job is taking out chariots, monsters and lone characters. remember that they can march and shoot now, which will give a unit 10 poisoned shots at 24" or 20 poisoned shots at 18". thats a lot of hurt from a 70 point unit. i have managed to wipe out 3 chariots with them in 2 games, and monsters will learn to fear them.i stil prefer blowpipes over javelins just for the extra flexibility of the 1 or 2 shot. They really are the best way of dealing with monsters that we have, short of magic of course

if only the Old ones, in their might and wisdom, had shown their servants how to make a bloody cannon (rolls eyes in disgust.....)

Finally we have Jungle Swarms

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: 

I know, im a joker! 45 points for the equivalent of 5 skinks on one base? Think it through, son

SO there you have it, the core choices for us are nothing exciting (as there is only really two....) but have a lovely balance of brute power matched against speed and ranged threat.

something that WoC wished they could say.....


----------



## sir_m1ke

Special
First up we have chameleon skinks. these guys were pretty much useless in 7th, as their only advantage over regular skinks was the scout ability. and u know what? T2 scouts= dead scouts :angry:

yeh, thats right. these guys that cost as much as a saurus? stil WS2 T2 no save. Dear. Lord. :shok:

but in 8th they have their uses thanks to the change in the scouts rule. now we can set our 5 camo guys up 12" away from the enemy, and pop all we got at an enemy war machine. BS4 means even at long range we can multi-shot and move and still claim poison shots against them. next turn, dont expect them to stil be ther, as the enemy WILL take vengeance. but so what? your 60pt unit wiped out a 100pt+ war machine and saved your Slann from one threat. if it helps, model them with kamikaze style headbands 

i dont see why you shouldnt set 60 or 120pts aside for a unit or two. they are always handy to have. remember, defending your slann is priority no. 1 for your lizzies

next up is our other disruption unit, terradons. unlike the chameleons, these guys were a must-have in 7th, as they were cheap, effective and relatively potent flying units. in 8th their role has not changed much, and i have found them to be extremely useful for their points. the strider (forest) rule is far more potent in this edition with the increase in the amount of terrain on the board. plus their drop rocks ability is still a brilliant anti-skirmisher/warmachine mechanism that is very easy to get off. and with 2 wounds and a stomp attack (thank you monster base) they can handle themselves in close combat against other light cav and skirmishers. a unit of 5 is only 150pts and is very effective

cold one calvary are our next option. With a 2+ save, plenty of S4 attacks (5 on the charge of course) and fear, these guys are damn good looking calvary. the negatives are a relatively slow pace (for cav) and stupidity. with the boost to LD provided by a BSB, if you keep them fairly central or as part of your main battleline they should avoid stupidity easily enough

the only problem is the supposed "nerf" that players are screaming about to cavalry in this edition. for too long players have relied on those big units of chosen chaos knights and the like to break the enemy and win the game for them in one charge. well its time to use them tactically from now on. cold one riders are hard as nails and so can reliably take on small units, skirmishers and other cavalry units. otherwise, they can only really do damage if supported by a good unit of infantry (read:saurus. cos we dont have any others!) time you all learned to use your units with a bit of synergy rather than letting a unit go all Rambo on the enemy.

i personally dont use them because i find 35 pts a model too steep for what they do. i would recommend not taking them, but it's your army

kroxigor look good on paper. M6, S6, 3W 4+ save ain't too shabby. but what you have to realise is that T4 4+ save is NOTHING in this game. that is a save for a saurus warrior, but he costs a fifth of the cost of a krox. so you can get 5 saurus for the cost of 1 krox. i know which one i would rather have. there are better models to spend your points on

Ah the temple guard, the "Elite" infantry of the army :laugh: our elite have an extra point of WS, I and light armour....i can hear the champagne corks popping already  these guys should NEVER be taken without a Slann in your army. without a Slann they are just overcosted, better equipped saurus.

With a SLann they are a practically unbreakable anchor unit you can stick right at the centre of the board and it will not move. I dont like them though. miscasts hurt like a sledgehammer to the testicles. they are only just above-average fighters, and against other elite infantry they will melt away. and due to the stepping up rule, once you are down to one rank of temple guard those wounds start going on the slann. read the rules, those wounds go on the rear rank- if the slann is on the rear rank, bingo! 

although how this works against a Slann with Higher State is beyond me. maybe they go on the temple guard, maybe they are ignored. ill throw a thread up in the rules discussion and see what happens with that

overall, i feel the temple guard arent worth it. i know many of you will disagree with me, but im calling it as i see it.

finally we have mr steg. this guy was the whole reason i started collecting the lizzies in the first place and he has always had a place in my army. with 8th, the steg cant just run around breaking units by himself, as steadfast will always hold them together no matter how many he squishes. what he does bring to the table is the only long range warmachine we have (which is mobile AND poisoned so aint bad) and is far sturdier and harder to take down than any chariot. it also dishes out a ton of hurt on the charge. this guy has gone from front-and-centre rank buster to a flank charger who will give most flanking units the willies. 

the only stumbling block is the cost. 235pts isnt over the top for what he does, but for 40 points more you can grab an ancient steg. higher strength alone is enough of a selling point for me, the scaly skin and the funky weaponry are just bonuses. but a regular steg is stil a worthwhile investment

well there you go, the special choices available. There is no unit that i would say you should NEVER take as they all have their strengths and place in the army, although IMO kroxigor are probably the weakest unit of them all.

I would always recommend either terradons or chameleons at the very least, if just to take out warmachines that could threaten the slann.


----------



## coke123

sir_m1ke said:


> Special
> First up we have chameleon skinks. these guys were pretty much useless in 7th, as their only advantage over regular skinks was the scout ability. and u know what? T2 scouts= dead scouts :angry:
> 
> yeh, thats right. these guys that cost as much as a saurus? stil WS2 T2 no save. Dear. Lord. :shok:
> 
> but in 8th they have their uses thanks to the change in the scouts rule. now we can set our 5 camo guys up 12" away from the enemy, and pop all we got at an enemy war machine. BS4 means even at long range we can multi-shot and move and still claim poison shots against them. next turn, dont expect them to stil be ther, as the enemy WILL take vengeance. but so what? your 60pt unit wiped out a 100pt+ war machine and saved your Slann from one threat. if it helps, model them with kamikaze style headbands


Last time I checked they always did that, didn't they? Otherwise, agreed.



sir_m1ke said:


> next up is our other disruption unit, terradons. unlike the chameleons, these guys were a must-have in 7th, as they were cheap, effective and relatively potent flying units. in 8th their role has not changed much, and i have found them to be extremely useful for their points. the strider (forest) rule is far more potent in this edition with the increase in the amount of terrain on the board. plus their drop rocks ability is still a brilliant anti-skirmisher/warmachine mechanism that is very easy to get off. and with 2 wounds and a stomp attack (thank you monster base) they can handle themselves in close combat against other light cav and skirmishers. a unit of 5 is only 150pts and is very effective


Again, I agree for the most part- except that using Drop Rocks on a war machine is a bad idea. It's only a S4 attack- and war machines are T7. It's a waste- you're better off charging the war machine. However, Drop Rocks is excellent for taking out units of 10 archers/handgunners/empire detachments.



sir_m1ke said:


> cold one calvary are our next option. With a 2+ save, plenty of S4 attacks (5 on the charge of course) and fear, these guys are damn good looking calvary. the negatives are a relatively slow pace (for cav) and stupidity. with the boost to LD provided by a BSB, if you keep them fairly central or as part of your main battleline they should avoid stupidity easily enough
> 
> the only problem is the supposed "nerf" that players are screaming about to cavalry in this edition. for too long players have relied on those big units of chosen chaos knights and the like to break the enemy and win the game for them in one charge. well its time to use them tactically from now on. cold one riders are hard as nails and so can reliably take on small units, skirmishers and other cavalry units. otherwise, they can only really do damage if supported by a good unit of infantry (read:saurus. cos we dont have any others!) time you all learned to use your units with a bit of synergy rather than letting a unit go all Rambo on the enemy.
> 
> i personally dont use them because i find 35 pts a model too steep for what they do. i would recommend not taking them, but it's your army


Here is where I totally disagree with you. These guys are just crap. Look at Elven cavalry for a comparison- not even thinking about the super scary chaos knights. Dragon Princes cost 5pts less, have ASF, a 1+ save, S6 on the charge, are faster, and are immune to fire and breath, and aren't stupid. The only negative is that they have one less toughness- which is more than mitigated by superior armour. with all the armour piercing, S4+ attacks going around, these guys will rarely survive. One unit that has only one reason to be taken- you bought the battalion and don't have the models for anything else.




sir_m1ke said:


> kroxigor look good on paper. M6, S6, 3W 4+ save ain't too shabby. but what you have to realise is that T4 4+ save is NOTHING in this game. that is a save for a saurus warrior, but he costs a fifth of the cost of a krox. so you can get 5 saurus for the cost of 1 krox. i know which one i would rather have. there are better models to spend your points on


Again, agreed, until we start talking about mixed units. These guys are the shiz in a mixed unit with Skink Cohorts.



sir_m1ke said:


> Ah the temple guard, the "Elite" infantry of the army :laugh: our elite have an extra point of WS, I and light armour....i can hear the champagne corks popping already  these guys should NEVER be taken without a Slann in your army. without a Slann they are just overcosted, better equipped saurus.
> 
> With a SLann they are a practically unbreakable anchor unit you can stick right at the centre of the board and it will not move. I dont like them though. miscasts hurt like a sledgehammer to the testicles. they are only just above-average fighters, and against other elite infantry they will melt away. and due to the stepping up rule, once you are down to one rank of temple guard those wounds start going on the slann. read the rules, those wounds go on the rear rank- if the slann is on the rear rank, bingo!
> 
> although how this works against a Slann with Higher State is beyond me. maybe they go on the temple guard, maybe they are ignored. ill throw a thread up in the rules discussion and see what happens with that
> 
> overall, i feel the temple guard arent worth it. i know many of you will disagree with me, but im calling it as i see it.


A valid point. Temple guard by themselves are good, but certainly nothing to do cartwheels over. However, any decent Lizardmen army of 1250pts+ will certainly have a Slann, so the Temple Guard are an extremely good buy. On miscasts- that shouldn't happen more than once. Take cupped hands, and you'll avoid the first one. If you take Lore of Life, there shouldn't be any miscasts. Maybe one. If running Light, well then, you'll probably want to be more conservative with your rolling after cupped hands is gone anyway.



sir_m1ke said:


> finally we have mr steg. this guy was the whole reason i started collecting the lizzies in the first place and he has always had a place in my army. with 8th, the steg cant just run around breaking units by himself, as steadfast will always hold them together no matter how many he squishes. what he does bring to the table is the only long range warmachine we have (which is mobile AND poisoned so aint bad) and is far sturdier and harder to take down than any chariot. it also dishes out a ton of hurt on the charge. this guy has gone from front-and-centre rank buster to a flank charger who will give most flanking units the willies.
> 
> the only stumbling block is the cost. 235pts isnt over the top for what he does, but for 40 points more you can grab an ancient steg. higher strength alone is enough of a selling point for me, the scaly skin and the funky weaponry are just bonuses. but a regular steg is stil a worthwhile investment


One word- Cannons. That 90pt cannon will annihilate your steg in one shot. and most people will take multiple cannons, so they need to be dealt with ASAP- and frankly Chameleons aren't a guaranteed fixed by any means without maxing out the unit size- and even then you're relying on averages. Meaning that you need to utilise target saturation if using stegs. I'd be thinking of two of them minimum, probably with an EOTG as well.



sir_m1ke said:


> well there you go, the special choices available. There is no unit that i would say you should NEVER take as they all have their strengths and place in the army, although IMO kroxigor are probably the weakest unit of them all.


At least Kroxigor are useful in Cohort units. Cold One Cavalry are just crap at all times. Regardless, a good tactica, have some rep.

Just realised I managed to miss everything except your stuff on specials- a few things.

Cohorts with Kroxigor are Flanking units. They shouldn't get into the position where they'll be wiped out by the step-up rule. Still, that's a good point you bring up, and probably warrants a letter/email/messenger pigeon to GW.

Slann with BSB is a bad idea, like you said.

I would like to know which idiot claimed supporting attacks nerfed spear saurus. The extra rank of attacks shits all over the silly little parry save (that doesn't work against everything).

Otherwise, good job.


----------



## CoNnZ

sir_m1ke said:


> *Core*
> The lizardmen have the 2nd best core choice in the game in the saurus warrior (Warriors of Chaos are the best stats-wise, but the army sucks ass) and you will want plenty of these guys.
> I could not disagree with you more about the statement over WoC sucking. Go to a tournament and then say that. As it stands they are one of the most powerful if played right
> Some points to consider when forming your saurus units:
> 
> 1) ignore horde. Horde is a gimmick to sell more models, it has very little value in a game. You tried wheeling 10 models whilst staying 1" away from all the other models? This unit moves like a morbidly obese woman in a toilet cubicle. 6-wide is ideal, so try and get your units in multiples of 6
> Horde is fine with pretty mcuh good with all armies mate. The only reason lizards don't do it is because of how pricey it would be.





> Here is where I totally disagree with you. These guys are just crap. Look at Elven cavalry for a comparison- not even thinking about the super scary chaos knights. Dragon Princes cost 5pts less, have ASF, a 1+ save, S6 on the charge, are faster, and are immune to fire and breath, and aren't stupid. The only negative is that they have one less toughness- which is more than mitigated by superior armour. with all the armour piercing, S4+ attacks going around, these guys will rarely survive. One unit that has only one reason to be taken- you bought the battalion and don't have the models for anything else.


Wrong in many ways. For one Dragon princes have 2+ not 1+. Also they are S5 on the charge not S6. Both hit at S5 in the first round. The CoC hit harder in the first round due to the cold one profile but also the saurus have 2A. Most units will hold due to ranks. After that it goes downhill for the DP who will hit with a measly S3 while the CoC will hit S4. There is also fear from CO's.The high toughness really wins out for the CoC who will not only stay in the fight longer but will certainly kill more (especially vs horde armies like skaven)



> At least Kroxigor are useful in Cohort units


Wrong again. These may well be the worst unit in the book. The big issue is that you are lobbing T2 5+ save skinks. Your pretty much giving your opponent combat res on a silver platter. They will consistantly lose until broken


----------



## coke123

CoNnZ said:


> Wrong in many ways. For one Dragon princes have 2+ not 1+. Also they are S5 on the charge not S6. Both hit at S5 in the first round. The CoC hit harder in the first round due to the cold one profile but also the saurus have 2A. Most units will hold due to ranks. After that it goes downhill for the DP who will hit with a measly S3 while the CoC will hit S4. There is also fear from CO's.The high toughness really wins out for the CoC who will not only stay in the fight longer but will certainly kill more (especially vs horde armies like skaven)


*checks High Elf book* Shit, that guy I played the other day cheated. Regardless, Saurus Cavalry is overpriced and terrible. Fear means very little in this edition, and this is balanced out by stupidity. Dragon Princes also have two attacks, so I have no idea why you brought up the number of attacks. COC have astonishingly shit WS, so whilst they may hit slightly harder, they are far more liable to just miss. Who cares if you're S4 if the blow is dodged? So DP aren't stupid, are slightly less tough, but have are ASF with ridiculous initiative and high WS. and they cost less. DP are SO much better.



CoNnZ said:


> Wrong again. These may well be the worst unit in the book. The big issue is that you are lobbing T2 5+ save skinks. Your pretty much giving your opponent combat res on a silver platter. They will consistantly lose until broken


Then you're using them wrong. Using them in a flank attack means the enemy only has 3-5 models striking them, assuming he doesn't send more attacks toward the threat of Saurus at the front. So at worst 10 attacks, equating to what, 5-7 wounds. The Kroxigor swing with 9 attacks, S6, so around 5 wounds. Skinks pick up another wound or so, and then you've got the matter of the saurus attacking to the front. You can't analyse something in a vacuum, and then call it bad. One on one, kroxiskinks will probably lose. So don't let them fight one on one. 

Oh, for the record, not that it helps my point, but skinks don't have a 5+ save. It's 6+/6++ in combat.


----------



## CoNnZ

coke123 said:


> Then you're using them wrong. Using them in a flank attack means the enemy only has 3-5 models striking them, assuming he doesn't send more attacks toward the threat of Saurus at the front. So at worst 10 attacks, equating to what, 5-7 wounds. The Kroxigor swing with 9 attacks, S6, so around 5 wounds. Skinks pick up another wound or so, and then you've got the matter of the saurus attacking to the front. You can't analyse something in a vacuum, and then call it bad. One on one, kroxiskinks will probably lose. So don't let them fight one on one.


I dont really see this as a viable flank unit. The unit you just gave me (3 krox, this means a minimum of 24 skinks) weighs in ad close to 300pts. This comes across as a huge point sink. They are going to be a pretty big block, meaning mavouverability will be small, limiting their flanking potential. A 300pts unit that needs a flank to be effective isnt really worthwhile. I feel you kinda shot yourself in the foot with the statistics on wounding. You have just admitted that the unit will potential lose a quater to a third of its unit simply by charging a flank, thats gunna give the opponent a massive combat res which may well help the opponent hold


----------



## coke123

CoNnZ said:


> I dont really see this as a viable flank unit. The unit you just gave me (3 krox, this means a minimum of 24 skinks) weighs in ad close to 300pts. This comes across as a huge point sink. They are going to be a pretty big block, meaning mavouverability will be small, limiting their flanking potential. A 300pts unit that needs a flank to be effective isnt really worthwhile. I feel you kinda shot yourself in the foot with the statistics on wounding. You have just admitted that the unit will potential lose a quater to a third of its unit simply by charging a flank, thats gunna give the opponent a massive combat res which may well help the opponent hold


So my 300pt flanking unit of skinks isn't worthwhile, but your 400pt flanking COC unit is? The fact is that it's quick, and for a reasonable amount of points can dish out quite a few high strength attacks, and can reliably disrupt ranks. Not to mention skinks can shoot pretty well once they're in range, and have poison shots to be able to attack enemy war machines, and monsters. Not to mention they're also capable of holding flanks, as well as attacking them.

Yes, the unit will potentially lose a quarter to a third of the unit. But so will the enemy. and I'm willing to bet that losing 5-7 skinks hurts a lot less than losing around 5 of pretty much any model that has two attacks, which is what I assumed. And I'm assuming that the unit is five deep, which whilst feasible, isn't that unlikely. So that's a worst case scenario. Flanking pretty anything made of single attack models generally results in roughly half a dead skink for every rank, so a five deep spear horde kills 2-3 skinks, and then the skinks+kroxigor strike back. And that assumes the enemy unit is completely untouched by shooting/magic, which it shouldn't be.

So since the kills will roughly even out, the fact that you disrupt ranks means that the unit fighting in the front arc of the enemy doesn't have to worry about the enemy's rank bonus. and gets +1 res for the flank charge. and an additional 1+ for actually having charged in. Then include the actual attacks of the unit to the front, and you've got a much more solid victory to the Lizardmen, considering that the enemy's attacks on the saurus are largely ineffective, as they usually are, especially when using the lore of life.


----------



## CoNnZ

coke123 said:


> So my 300pt flanking unit of skinks isn't worthwhile, but your 400pt flanking COC unit is? The fact is that it's quick, and for a reasonable amount of points can dish out quite a few high strength attacks, and can reliably disrupt ranks. Not to mention skinks can shoot pretty well once they're in range, and have poison shots to be able to attack enemy war machines, and monsters. Not to mention they're also capable of holding flanks, as well as attacking them.
> 
> Yes, the unit will potentially lose a quarter to a third of the unit. But so will the enemy. and I'm willing to bet that losing 5-7 skinks hurts a lot less than losing around 5 of pretty much any model that has two attacks, which is what I assumed. And I'm assuming that the unit is five deep, which whilst feasible, isn't that unlikely. So that's a worst case scenario. Flanking pretty anything made of single attack models generally results in roughly half a dead skink for every rank, so a five deep spear horde kills 2-3 skinks, and then the skinks+kroxigor strike back. And that assumes the enemy unit is completely untouched by shooting/magic, which it shouldn't be.
> 
> So since the kills will roughly even out, the fact that you disrupt ranks means that the unit fighting in the front arc of the enemy doesn't have to worry about the enemy's rank bonus. and gets +1 res for the flank charge. and an additional 1+ for actually having charged in. Then include the actual attacks of the unit to the front, and you've got a much more solid victory to the Lizardmen, considering that the enemy's attacks on the saurus are largely ineffective, as they usually are, especially when using the lore of life.


My biggest problem is that you are looking at them exclusively as flanking. If they get charged they are dead. Simple as. Where as a CoC unit with T4, 2+ save will most likely hold against most opponents. I could argue that any unit is good on the flank. You need to look at the unit as a whole not just "whats the best situation they could be in" and then saying that makes them viable. A unit of kroxigor is better given they dont throw away combat res and will be cheaper. Skink cohorts never earn back their points and die pretty quickly in comparison to CoC.
The biggest nightmare for cohorts is any power units like chaos warriors who will butcher the helpless skinks
At the end of the day both are pretty bad I find and pale when compared to a unit of saurus warriors


----------



## coke123

CoNnZ said:


> My biggest problem is that you are looking at them exclusively as flanking. If they get charged they are dead. Simple as. Where as a CoC unit with T4, 2+ save will most likely hold against most opponents. I could argue that any unit is good on the flank. You need to look at the unit as a whole not just "whats the best situation they could be in" and then saying that makes them viable. A unit of kroxigor is better given they dont throw away combat res and will be cheaper. Skink cohorts never earn back their points and die pretty quickly in comparison to CoC.
> At the end of the day both are pretty bad I find and pale when compared to a unit of saurus warriors


Considering that COC are rarely going to be fielded in units more than ten strong, I'd doubt they'd survive a charge much better than Cohorts, even if they are much tougher. It's no tall order to reduce their 2+ save to a 4+, and then they start dying. The enemy is going to minimise your hitting power, by killing your I2 models before they strike, and then the enemy is either going to beat you, considering they'll be getting +2 res for more ranks, and can quite possibly out kill you by sheer volume of attacks, and then of course get +1 for charging. and should they lose, they'll be steadfast, and the COC will lose in the next round. The skinks will at least be steadfast (so long as they don't fight against a CC powerhouse, like you said), and will likely strike back at full force, with a bunch of S6 attacks.

I have never gotten my points back from my COC. I have been quite able to get my points back from my cohort/kroxigor units.

Compared to saurus, I tend to agree. Even skirmishers should be bought before Cohorts or COC. and most certainly Salamanders.

Frankly, I can't really see either of us convincing the other of our opinion. We're just clogging up this tactica thread- I'm starting to think we should just agree to disagree.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Good ideas all round lads. Although I am awaiting Sir_m1ke to write up the rare choices. I want to see another persons view on the razordens.


----------



## coke123

I emailed GW on the whole 'Removing Kroxigor from the back rank thing' and got this-



> Thanks for your email. In answer to your question about Skink Cohorts with Kroxigors you are correct, models must be removed from the back ranks where possible. However, the Kroxigors themselves are the exception to the rule. Your opponent must direct their attacks accordingly. Once you run out of Skinks to remove as casualties the Kroxigors head up to the front rank. So say you run out of Skinks in the second rank and only have Kroxigors left in that second rank. If your opponent is still directing attacks against Skinks you will then need to remove Skink casualties from the front rank as the attacks are being directed and resolved against them, not the Kroxigors. Once there is room in the front rank the Kroxigors will start moving up to the front rank. Well we hope this answers your question and inspires you and your friends to play more legendary and earth shattering games of Warhammer Fantasy battles! Also if you have any battlefield photography of your Lizardmen in action we'd love to see them, so please send some on through!


So according to GW, they should work as they always have. Of course, this requires your opponent to agree with an unofficial email, but still- it is some form of ruling. If a bunch of people asked, hopefully it'll be considered frequently asked, and they'll FAQ it.


----------



## sir_m1ke

First of all, can i thank you all for your comments- all extremely constructive and useful to people looking to use this army k:

That thanks also extends to those who commented on the original threads as well :victory:

Ill try and deal with some of the points _as i see them_ (IE they are my opinions and always open to arguement) and if i miss anything you think is important PM me and ill get right on it

@coke123

I did not and can not find a compelling reason to NEVER field CoC- to me they have their uses in terms of flank charging (NB- this is not the same as a "Flanking unit"- if you want any clarification just ask) as i have seen how effective calvary can be this edition- by no means are they the hammers of previous editions but they are still incredibly powerful units when used correctly

the point you make about WS3 is, however, a strong argument against them

if you want to know what "idiots" complained about the saurus spear nerf- just visit Warseer any day of the week my friend. Any day of the week :laugh:

I just dont see any value in the mixed Skink cohorts, for that cost give me the equivalent number of Saurus warriors and i will be much happier. Yes, they dont move anywhere near as fast but they are tougher, braver, harder to kill in every way and still hit hard. Saurus FTW IMO

Cheers for emailing GW with the query coke k: my issue is- until it is FAQ'd, that email is just the opinion of 1 dude sitting at a computer in Nottingham, which actually goes against all of the rules as presented in the Rulebook- he/she says that Kroxigor are the exception, but in the official rules (both in the RB and the army book) there is no such mention- you have to play by the rules unfortunately

@CoNnz

WoC still suck IMHO. No shooting, very little in the way of effective speed in the army, reliance on grinding out results- they are like dwarfs, just without war machines and guns. You know what they are called? dead dwarfs :laugh:

seriously though, i dont see anything in a chaos army that actually scares me- magic is decent-good, combat power is great and plenty of fancy shit but nothing that makes me sit up and take notice

I still think Horde is a waste of time. hit an average unit of 5/6 wide and you have columns of guys sitting there ready to get hit by other units. not for me

I think we are strongly in agreement about the Cohorts, i know some players rate them but i just cant bring myself to take such a fragile unit- T2 FFS!!

@Stephen_Newman

I am convinced i posted a Rare unit analysis but it seems to have disappeared  and recently i have been using my beastmen a lot so i would need a day or 2 to catch up with the lizzies again before i post thoughts

suffice to say- when 8th edition came out, i went out and bought some Razordons :wink:


----------



## coke123

sir_m1ke said:


> @coke123
> 
> I did not and can not find a compelling reason to NEVER field CoC- to me they have their uses in terms of flank charging (NB- this is not the same as a "Flanking unit"- if you want any clarification just ask) as i have seen how effective calvary can be this edition- by no means are they the hammers of previous editions but they are still incredibly powerful units when used correctly


Fair enough, I've already argued my points on this, I shan't repeat myself. If it's working for you, fair enough.



sir_m1ke said:


> if you want to know what "idiots" complained about the saurus spear nerf- just visit Warseer any day of the week my friend. Any day of the week :laugh:


No thanks, I'd rather keep my sanity. Although if I ever feel a need to feel really intelligent...



sir_m1ke said:


> I just dont see any value in the mixed Skink cohorts, for that cost give me the equivalent number of Saurus warriors and i will be much happier. Yes, they dont move anywhere near as fast but they are tougher, braver, harder to kill in every way and still hit hard. Saurus FTW IMO


Eh, fair enough. I agree that for the most part Saurus should be bought first- pure skinks (and I have seen this attempted) is laughable. However M6 is a very attractive proposition.



sir_m1ke said:


> Cheers for emailing GW with the query coke k: my issue is- until it is FAQ'd, that email is just the opinion of 1 dude sitting at a computer in Nottingham, which actually goes against all of the rules as presented in the Rulebook- he/she says that Kroxigor are the exception, but in the official rules (both in the RB and the army book) there is no such mention- you have to play by the rules unfortunately


Yeah, I agree as well. Still, in friendly games you could bring it up, as that's clearly how the unit is _intended_ to work- but then we're getting into RAW vs RAI arguements, and I don't particularly feel like opening that kettle of fish. Although if your problem is that they're from Nottingham, I emailed GW Australia- so he actually would have been in Ingleburn 

Like I said, we should get a bunch of people to ask this very question- it's not going to be FAQ'd until it is frequently asked, so if we want an official ruling, that's probably the way to go.


----------



## sybarite

sir_m1ke said:


> @CoNnz
> 
> WoC still suck IMHO. No shooting, very little in the way of effective speed in the army, reliance on grinding out results- they are like dwarfs, just without war machines and guns. You know what they are called? dead dwarfs :laugh:
> 
> seriously though, i dont see anything in a chaos army that actually scares me- magic is decent-good, combat power is great and plenty of fancy shit but nothing that makes me sit up and take notice


Sigh, 1st of all they are much better in combat and magic them dwarfs (then agien dwarfs are better shooter and magic def) also the whole l have a unit of 20+ men with 3+ armour save's and a 3+ ward save attacking with 4 srt 5 attacks each... if that does not make you "sit up and take notice" l don't know what will

also you got warshines, DO, Trolls as well not just basic men although some people do Spam them.

2nd cold ones are by far the worse unit in the lizard men book there about as bad as forsaken in a chaos army due to them costing way to much.

3rd Stegs as coke has also said before they are now useless as almost any WM can take it out in one shot without any issues, l have not used mine after one game l had where 1 cannon ball killed all of my crew (my nice magic user as well) and 1/2 of my wounds off my EotG on the 1st turn.

most of the other stuff l do agree with on the other hand. and overall a nice review.

Also if you ever come to aus l will give you a game my WoC they are W-24 D-1 L-4


----------



## sir_m1ke

coke123 said:


> Yeah, I agree as well. Still, in friendly games you could bring it up, as that's clearly how the unit is _intended_ to work- but then we're getting into RAW vs RAI arguements, and I don't particularly feel like opening that kettle of fish. Although if your problem is that they're from Nottingham, I emailed GW Australia- so he actually would have been in Ingleburn
> 
> Like I said, we should get a bunch of people to ask this very question- it's not going to be FAQ'd until it is frequently asked, so if we want an official ruling, that's probably the way to go.


Even in friendly games i still wouldnt bother playing a skink cohort 

In my mind there is no RAI vs RAW arguement- what it says in the rulebook goes, even if it seems retarded and illogical. We cant play a game where the rules are subjective- hell, look at the mess the Christian faith is in because of subjective interpretation of clear guidelines- because that doesnt make a balanced game. If everyone plays rules as they are written, then everyone is aware of how things work

And no, in my opinion the fact that it wasnt even a ruling from the towers of Nottingham makes it even worse :laugh: those are the guys that wrote the rules in the first place!



sybarite said:


> Sigh, 1st of all they are much better in combat and magic them dwarfs (then agien dwarfs are better shooter and magic def) also the whole l have a unit of 20+ men with 3+ armour save's and a 3+ ward save attacking with 4 srt 5 attacks each... if that does not make you "sit up and take notice" l don't know what will


Meh, Warriors are better in combat, but dwarves are no slouches and point-for-point can match warriors better than most races can. Although only saurus can really match point-for-point in my opinion

when most of your army consists of 2/3 units of 20+ men because they are hideously expensive for a unit that can only function in combat- thats why i dont sit up and take notice. thats when i roll power dice/lob warmachines at them and watch as they disappear, or avoid them because M4 is so bad it makes me cry. When the whole army NEEDS to be in combat to work, thats when i worry- hell, i play beastmen! but they can spam cheap chariots, cheap units and are much faster and more moaneouverable than WoC



sybarite said:


> also you got warshines, DO, Trolls as well not just basic men although some people do Spam them.


Like i said, they have plenty of fancy shit but really the best WoC armies i have faced are always big units of MoT warriors backed up with intelligent magic user choices and a warshrine. And it still struggles so badly against even a basic Lizardman list. The fancy shit is nice but cant win games alone



sybarite said:


> 2nd cold ones are by far the worse unit in the lizard men book there about as bad as forsaken in a chaos army due to them costing way to much.


Disagree but you really arent too far wrong, for me they are trumped by Jungle Swarms :angry: cold ones come in somewhere above swarms, special characters and Kroxigor but just below temple guard and Regadons



sybarite said:


> 3rd Stegs as coke has also said before they are now useless as almost any WM can take it out in one shot without any issues, l have not used mine after one game l had where 1 cannon ball killed all of my crew (my nice magic user as well) and 1/2 of my wounds off my EotG on the 1st turn.


Cannons are a big issue, and i will confess to not fielding Stegs in my list anymore due to my most common enemy being Skaven. I didnt want to be too hard on them though because that is the case with every monster in the game now-the new giant spider for O+Gs looks awesome but how many cannon balls can the thing take? it is now just an accepted part of WHFB that your big beasties will take cannons to the bake (Northern Irish word for face FYI ) 

On the other hand, every cannon your stegs take is one less aimed at your slann, whereas in my force i am finding a lot of attention being placed on the slann because there are no other targets for the enemy to shoot at



sybarite said:


> most of the other stuff l do agree with on the other hand. and overall a nice review.
> 
> Also if you ever come to aus l will give you a game my WoC they are W-24 D-1 L-4


Im not saying that you cant win with WoC, and you are certainly doing well with them. I just think that the basic design of both WoC and (in my own case) Beasts is flawed, a whole army that can do nothing outside of combat is not how this game is played. And relying on magic is a n00b trick, magic is not the be-all and end-all of WHFB- games are won by careful movement, favourable charges and being able to injure/harm the enemy at range. Stuff the Lizardmen do well now, backed up by the most reliable magic phase in the game


----------

