# Will GW ever make the Primarchs do something?



## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

I understand that GW likes to make the opposing forces/armies of Warhammer 40K be balanced in a sense between each other but come on, how long has it been since Russ and the Khan have been away? Aside from Angron during the battle with the Grey Knights, I can't recall any other Chaos Primarch doing anything either. It would be really awesome to see the return of even at least 1 loyalist Primarch. Think about how awesome it would be! Or I don't know, hasn't Lorgar sat meditating enough? I think GW is being lazy here and missing out on good opportunities to make some golden and revolutionary fluff.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Fluff-wise I'd find it interesting to see the reaction of the High Lords.

One of daddy's boys show up and, well, who's in charge now...?


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Tawa said:


> Fluff-wise I'd find it interesting to see the reaction of the High Lords.



Russ:
There would be a civil war. HLs say's he's the spawn of chaos sent to mislead people, try to kill him, the SW wouldn't take kindly to it, he may be able to rally several armies of people. IG and remaining Marines sent in to crush them. Probably short lived civil war but one none the less.

EDIT: Gil can't say/ pronounce the res right.

Wakes up learns that the Lords has perverted the Emps vision, declares Ultrimar independent tries to reforms the Imp. civil war drags out?????


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

Tawa said:


> Fluff-wise I'd find it interesting to see the reaction of the High Lords.
> 
> One of daddy's boys show up and, well, who's in charge now...?


Something I would pay hard cash to see would a returned loyalist Primarch explaining to the Sisters of Battle in detail how the very existence of the Sororitas is an insult to the Emperor and everything he wanted for humanity.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Isn't that the point of the Heresy series? So that we can read about the Primarchs and their adventures?

They belong in 30k, not 40k.

And lore wise, Abaddon has forged pacts with and gained the support of most of the Chaos Primarchs for his 13th Black Crusade. The Despoiler intends to unleash them, along with their daemonic hordes, when he is able to establish the Crimson Path. Of course though, this will never actually come to pass in the lore because the setting will never advance beyond 999.M41.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> never advance beyond 999.M41.


That's kind of debatable, if GW was very desperate I could imagine them advancing the timeline, outside of Cain series. As it stands though agreed.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Karthak said:


> Something I would pay hard cash to see would a returned loyalist Primarch explaining to the Sisters of Battle in detail how the very existence of the Sororitas is an insult to the Emperor and everything he wanted for humanity.


I think the funniest part is them learning that all their beliefs come from the book of lorgar.



locustgate said:


> Russ:
> There would be a civil war. HLs say's he's the spawn of chaos sent to mislead people, try to kill him, the SW wouldn't take kindly to it, he may be able to rally several armies of people. IG and remaining Marines sent in to crush them. Probably short lived civil war but one none the less.
> 
> EDIT: Gil can't say/ pronounce the res right.
> ...


You'd be surprised who would rally behind russ. 

Aside from the space wolves, any IG regiment and PDF they fought alongside would.

The dark angels would
The black templar would most likely 
And the grey knights would join.
Actually come to think of it all of the first founding chapters would join.

The wolves DA and BT are all legion strength don't assume that's something to be taken lightly
The sight of Bjorn was enough to put an inquisitor lord who came to exile the wolves on his knees, once he realized who he was. A primarch isn't something to sneer at their very sight will overwhelm allot of people.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> The dark angels would.


I can't see this to be honest. Bad blood and all that.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Tawa said:


> I can't see this to be honest. Bad blood and all that.


It's more of a brotherly rivalry now.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> It's more of a brotherly rivalry now.


"My dad's better than your dad!" :laugh:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> The wolves DA and BT are all legion strength


They're really not. Far from it.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> They're really not. Far from it.


They are, because.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> They are, because.


Because....?


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Tawa said:


> Because....?


Because they are.

But in all seriousness, all DA successors bear the title of the unforgiven, The BT are spread out and each crusade fleet recruits separately. I never recall ever reading that the wolves ever split. There's no way they took enough losses during the heresy to put them under 1000.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

the primarchs will only return if the sells really drop,
only the SW are near their legion strength, they split up, If i recall correctly the wolf brothers but more is explained in battle of the fang,
Russ was cunning enough to project his legion on the chapter structure where the companies correspond roughly to chapters, 
the BT are a few thousand but the decent 30 K legions are about 60k and even more for the WB and the UM, 
the DA, i do not know


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> There's no way they took enough losses during the heresy to put them under 1000.


You haven't done any research have you....


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Not to mention the Models they could sell if they provided that. Every 40k nut and his mother would want one. But you know....copyright and all that crap.

I've been waiting for years, probably not going to happen anytime soon because they want to stick to their current fluff that brings their baseline profits in. They would not do anything to jeopardize that.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

locustgate said:


> You haven't done any research have you....


The only major battle that I know the wolves took part in was prospero, they weren't at the massacre, and as I recall they didn't fight during the siege, I also can't find a definitive number as to how large the legion was. Or exactly how many thousands of casulites are.

Ergo they are still at legion strength.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Dark Angels themselves are only slightly over 1000 (due to the confidentiality of the exact number of the Deathwing and Ravenwing), but their Chapter Command also controls the Angels of Absolution, Angels of Redemption, Guardians of the Covenant, Consecrators, Swords of Caliban and all other Dark Angel successors. Still not nearly Legion strength though.

Interestingly enough, Talos does remark that the entire Ultramarine Legion came to Tsagualsa at the Night Lords' final dedeat. It could just be a bit of hylerbole or pure guesswork on Talos' part, but he says the whole Legion appeared. Not actually too far-fetched - Ultramarines successors make up the majority of Chapters, and since they'd only need 230 Chapters out of 1000 to reach their largest Legion-size estimate, which while a gigantic mobilisation would probably be regarded as necessary to take on the still-intact Night Lords legion.

Midnight


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> Ergo they are still at legion strength.


The Legions averaged at 100,000 strong.

The Chapters are strictly limited to 1,000 by the Codex Astartes.

Given, some Chapters (The Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Black Templars among them) do not strictly adhere to the Codex, but no single Chapter maintains anywhere near 100,000 Space Marines. A few thousand at most for some of the most wild or disobedient Chapters, but that's it.



emporershand89 said:


> Not to mention the Models they could sell if they provided that.


http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/The_Hor...LGRIM_PRIMARCH_OF_THE_EMPEROR'S_CHILDREN.html
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/The_Hor...RIES/ANGRON_PRIMARCH_OF_THE_WORLD_EATERS.html


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> stuff


Yes and they haven't fought a battle in 10,000 years....wait.......


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

CotE has already made the point. But yes, you clearly haven't done your research if you think the SW, DA or BT's are at legion strength. Like CotE said, Legions averaged 100,000 astartes. The Black Templars can probably boast the most amount at a few thousand. So no.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Angel of Blood said:


> CotE has already made the point. But yes, you clearly haven't done your research if you think the SW, DA or BT's are at legion strength. Like CotE said, Legions averaged 100,000 astartes. The Black Templars can probably boast the most amount at a few thousand. So no.


No,

I did do my research. Legions numbered from 10,000 the 1k sons were only 10K strong during the last of the crusade. Or are we going to have to call them a chapter because they didn't enter a six figure sum. And what about the white scars who were roughly 7000 strong at the end of the crusade? 

A legion is defined as a vast number. As in there's no set number. And again, what were the space wolf casualties after prospero, I see no set number, I also see no figures as to their size. 

So again, I want to see numbers. I can't seem to find any.


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

Okay let's say from straight battle you'd lose some SW's annually. They can't recruit outside of their home planet which will severely limit there numbers due to loses. Now take into account the the Burning of Prospero, First War for Armageddon and the business afterwards, Battle of the Fang, 12 Black Crusades with Grimnar leading Imperial forces on this most current one, Hive Fleets, and other miscellaneous battles. Over 10k years, and remember they can still ONLY recruit from Fenris. So yeah, those are just the MAJOR battles. Not to mention members being lost to the warp, Wulfen curse, smaller conflicts, and again the fact they can ONLY recruit from ONE planet and yeah it makes sense. The SW maximum are well under 10k. Legions before hand numbered close to 100k on average. 

If you remember Corax always remarked how small his legion was. That bastard took around 75k Raven Guard to the dropsite massacre. And that was a small legion. No Imperial Legion in existence today comes close. I know the BT are maybe 6k, SW maybe 5k, and the GK are close to if not slightly over 6k. Those are considered wildly huge chapters. The only forces I could consider to be Legion would be the Black Legion or maybe Huron Blackheart's forces. The Imperium, because of how Horus only needed to convince 9 guys to literally bring the Imperium to it's knees will never let it be that easy again. Now you'd have to convince a crap ton of chapter masters to even come close to having one pre-heresy legion.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Legions averaged at 100,000 strong.
> ...
> Given, some Chapters (The Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Black Templars among them) do not strictly adhere to the Codex, but no single Chapter maintains anywhere near 100,000 Space Marines. A few thousand at most for some of the most wild or disobedient Chapters, but that's it.


Allow me to offer a dissenting point of view for the (you guessed it...) Dark Angels.

Now, Games Workshop does not exactly have a consistent answer as to how large the Legions were. The oldest material, offered through articles with the flavor of myth and ancient history (references to Apocrypha from millennia ago, etc.) claimed the Legions (or at least *most* of them) each numbered ten thousand Space Marines. This number has, frustratingly enough, been repeated in the very latest Codex: Space Marines.

Even I f we go by this (very conservative) number, the Unforgiven are still very much comparable to a "Legion". Counting only their seven *known* Chapters (Dark Angels, Angels of Absolution, Angels of Redemption, Angels of Vengeance, Concecrators, Disciples of Caliban, Guardians of the Covenant) they approach the mythical size of a Legion. More importantly, the newest edition of Codex: Dark Angels doesn't mince words: the High Lords of Terra absolutely suspect the Dark Angels of "Legion-building", and Azrael is able to (clandestinely) command the Unforgiven as a whole.

But let's honor the _spirit_ of this discussion, which hinges on the size of the Legions being informed by the latest Black Library novels. Happily, they don't stand alone; the history section of Codex: Grey Knights states that "there were barely four hundred Space Marine Chapters commissioned" during the Second Founding. This is a strong implication of support for the larger Legion sizes.

We know the Dark Angels were one of the average or above average-size Legions; Gav Thorpe, at any rate went on record on this matter on the Black Library Bolthole forums (http://www.thebolthole.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20&start=180).

The Dark Angels certainly incurred losses during the Horus Heresy, but unless we see a drastic later development, they cannot have been critical. Three years into the Heresy (the time period given for the final battle of Thramas), the Lion considered his Legion to still be at full strength. Again, pending a significant reversal in the lore, it's difficult to imagine the Dark Angels arriving at Caliban with less than 70-75% of their original power. My reasoning for this is that it took a devastating defeat at the hands of the Dark Angels for the Night Lords to lose that sort of manpower - a defeat never described in the First Legion's lore. What we _have_ read relates to the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves fighting their way to Terra under what are generally described as advantageous conditions.

Thus, let's assume than anywhere from 70-80,000 Dark Angels returned to Caliban with the Lion. We know that they were caught by surprise by the treachery of Luther, so we can assume significant losses during the beginning of that conflict.

From there, though, fortune favored the Loyalists. The Lion launced a surgical strike against Luther's stronghold, and, at the same time, his fleet or orally bombarded Caliban until "many monasteries were reduced to miles-wide craters ..." (Codex: Dark Angels). The older "Angels of Death" Codex states that the Dark Angels "easily" defeated Caliban's planetary defenses. Thus, even if we assume the Fallen killed multiple Dark Angels in return for every one of their own casualties (which defeats military logic, but whatever), what is the worst case scenario for the losses of the Dark Angels? I posit that, unless the destruction of Caliban annihilated the Dark Angels' fleet (something that is not mentioned in any of the Codices), at least half of their original manpower must have survived.

The Ultramarines would still have formed the preponderance of the nascent Adeptus Astartes following the Second Founding. We know roughly eighty thousand were battle ready following the treachery of Calth, but now how many of those survived the Shadow Crusade that followed. Even a shell of Ultramar would have swiftly provided a great number of recruits to them, though. The Imperials Fists, Blood Angels, and White Scars would have suffered crippling losses during the Siege of Terra, so their share would be smaller. The Raven Guard and the Salamanders would have contributed a minimal percentage to the Second Founding for obvious reasons. The Space Wolves must have suffered greatly between Prospero and the Scouring, and their losses must have been exacerbated even more by their inability to recruit outside of Fenris. The Iron Hands' losses at Isstvan V were primarily among their Veterans, but we cannot know how much that cost them later - when less experienced warriors were forced to fend for themselves during the rest of the Heresy and the Scouring.

Thus, sixty or so Dark Angels Chapters out of the four hundred that were formed during the Second Founding is not unreasonable. Thus, when, following the discovery of the Fallen and the subsequent creation of the Inner Circle, the High Lords began to suspect the Unforgiven of answering to a single leader, their decision to stop producing more Chapters from the Lion's Gene-seed made perfect sense. They couldn't prove it, but the Dark Angels were covertly defying the whole point of Guilliman's reformations. And so, as the latest Codex states, even going by the larger manpower figures of the latest novels, the Unforgiven are *still* comparable to the Legions of old.

Cheers, P.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> The only major battle that I know the wolves took part in was prospero, they weren't at the massacre, and as I recall they didn't fight during the siege, I also can't find a definitive number as to how large the legion was. Or exactly how many thousands of casulites are.
> 
> Ergo they are still at legion strength.


You're claiming the causality list from a war 10,000 years ago as evidence for the Chapter's current size? Seems a bit odd considering most Chapters have engaged in near-constant warfare for 10,000 years.

The Space Wolves were one of the smaller Legions according to the Heresy series, I believe 80,000 was the number being chucked around. They took a mauling at Prospero (see _Scars_) and then at the hands of the Alpha Legion. Who knows how many casualties they suffered during The Scouring? But the point remains, they may not obey the Codex to the letter, but they now number perhaps a little over 1,000. A far cry from their pre-Heresy numbers.



Reaper45 said:


> No,
> 
> I did do my research. Legions numbered from 10,000 the 1k sons were only 10K strong during the last of the crusade. Or are we going to have to call them a chapter because they didn't enter a six figure sum. And what about the white scars who were roughly 7000 strong at the end of the crusade?
> 
> ...


'Legion', by definition, has no strict numerical definition. But it has been categorically stated numerous times now that the average Legion size was 100,000 (with the Ultramarines notably numbering 250,000).

Have a look through the FAQ on these fluff forums for links to all the threads dealing with Legion sizes.



Phoebus said:


> Now, Games Workshop does not exactly have a consistent answer as to how large the Legions were. The oldest material, offered through articles with the flavor of myth and ancient history (references to Apocrypha from millennia ago, etc.) claimed the Legions (or at least *most* of them) each numbered ten thousand Space Marines. This number has, frustratingly enough, been repeated in the very latest Codex: Space Marines.


I can appreciate that P, especially because of how 40k lore operates. However, a Legion-average of 100k (rather than 10k) not only makes a lot more sense but it is now also unanimously (as far as I can tell) supported by BL and Alan Merret: Link.

The entire point of the Codex Astartes was so that no single force of Space Marines could rival the Legions of old. Some Chapters obviously don't give a shit about the Codex or it's purpose, but it has by-and-large done as it was intended to do. No single Chapter comes close to rivalling a pre-Heresy Legion in size, scope or power. Which leads nicely onto the next point...



Phoebus said:


> Even I f we go by this (very conservative) number, the Unforgiven are still very much comparable to a "Legion". Counting only their seven *known* Chapters (Dark Angels, Angels of Absolution, Angels of Redemption, Angels of Vengeance, Concecrators, Disciples of Caliban, Guardians of the Covenant) they approach the mythical size of a Legion. More importantly, the newest edition of Codex: Dark Angels doesn't mince words: the High Lords of Terra absolutely suspect the Dark Angels of "Legion-building", and Azrael is able to (clandestinely) command the Unforgiven as a whole.


I believe _Reaper_ specifically said (and meant) a single Chapter, at least that's how his posts seem to portray. Given, an amalgamation of Chapters could (and have) rivalled the strength of a Legion. Heck, the Ultramarines successors themselves mustered into a Legion-sized force to challenge the Night Lords on Tsagualsa post-Codex. The Astartes Praeses are another example of a brotherhood that can muster a significant number of Space Marines. But _Reaper_ doesn't seem to be referring to this, rather he is suggesting that a single Chapter can rival the strength of a Legion...



Phoebus said:


> But let's honor the _spirit_ of this discussion, which hinges on the size of the Legions being informed by the latest Black Library novels.


Indeed. This is the crux of the issue. One that I believe has been solved by BL sorting themselves out and defining the Legions at 100k.

I agree with your run-down of the Dark Angels. The only other plausible way (apart from those mentioned) where they would have suffered heavy casualties before The Second Founding would have been The Scouring itself.

Oh, and:


Phoebus said:


> orally bombarded


:laugh:


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## Valrak (Jul 23, 2011)

Urghhh its turned into one of these threads I see.

Anyway I would like the to see a Primarch to come back during the current time line, I'm a huge Imperial Fist (DORN LIVES!) and Space Wolf fan, but my choice would have to be Lion El'Johnson. He would be the best candidate to wake up, merely because he would rock the boat the most in my opinion.


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## PlayingWithHammers (Nov 7, 2013)

I believe the back cover of Dead Sky Black Sun (or perhaps one of the Honsou novels) refers to events so important they might even wake Peturabo from his brooding, but he doesn't appear in any of the novels.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

*CotE,*

Yes, we clearly were addressing different points, then. If we're talking about a _single Chapter_ rivaling the size of a Legion of old, than I think it's fair to say not one of them does! 

As an aside, while much of this discussion has been about the numbers of the Space Wolves and the few thousand Black Templars out there... I find it interesting that no one brought up the Astral Claws. They are _clearly_ the benchmark for a single modern Chapter threatening the laws set forth by the Codex Astartes, since their numerical strength was one of the three stated reasons the Imperium moved against them. Ultimately, we don't know how many Space Wolves there currently are, and the Black Templars' own numbers are offset by the fact that most of the Chapter is divided in separate Crusades. Huron, however, assembled well over three thousand Space Marines in a shockingly short amount of time... and only aimed to grow his force even larger!

*Valrak,*

Lion El'Jonson is interesting because he is one of the few loyal Primarchs that could potentially return - and the only one _known_ to be alive. Additionally, the fact that his former Legion covertly operates as a still-unified force makes him the biggest wild card... should he ever return that is.

I mean consider the power 60-70,000 Space Marines would have. When the territories conquered by Macharius rebelled (roughly a thousand worlds!), it took a _hundred_ Chapters many years to rein them back in. That's a stunning amount of power, and it doesn't even take into consideration the forces that would rally to the side of a Primarch by default.

Cheers,
P.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Astral Claws.


Maybe no one has brought them up because they turned traitor and became the Red Coursairs, led by Huron Blackheart, which someone brought up.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

It was an off-handed comment, locustgate, and it didn't address the point I was making. 

*Edit:* a point that was, admittedly, off-topic.


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## randian (Feb 26, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> I think the funniest part is them learning that all their beliefs come from the book of lorgar.


No, that's not right. The _Book of Lorgar_ is the Chaos tome he penned _after_ being rejected by the Emperor. The one underpinning the Temple of the Savior Emperor, which later formed the Ecclesiarchy after defeating all rival cults of Emperor worship, is a different work entirely. The latter does not summon daemons, for example.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

randian said:


> stuff


True BUT he did write the imperial holy book 1st edition.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

randian said:


> No, that's not right. The _Book of Lorgar_ is the Chaos tome he penned _after_ being rejected by the Emperor. The one underpinning the Temple of the Savior Emperor, which later formed the Ecclesiarchy after defeating all rival cults of Emperor worship, is a different work entirely. The latter does not summon daemons, for example.


Which is easier to say Book of lorgar or Lectitio Divinitatus?

Either way it doesn't change the fact the imperial cult came from a traitor primarch.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

randian said:


> No, that's not right. The _Book of Lorgar_ is the Chaos tome he penned _after_ being rejected by the Emperor. The one underpinning the Temple of the Savior Emperor, which later formed the Ecclesiarchy after defeating all rival cults of Emperor worship, is a different work entirely. The latter does not summon daemons, for example.


The Book of Lorgar is the second religious work Lorgar has written. As Reaper points out, the first was called the Lectito Divinitatus and was written by Lorgar before that. Lorgar founded the Imperial Creed, then changed his mind and started worshipping real Gods with real power.


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## AshArtKing (Nov 27, 2013)

tawa said:


> "my dad's better than your dad!" :laugh:


lmao!


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## AshArtKing (Nov 27, 2013)

Honestly i feel it would be amazing to have Sanguinius back!
I mean can you imagine the great angel coming back?
Thats some golden artificer glory!
Or even Roboute Guilliman coming back from his injuries??
Now he could lead the imperium back to glory!!
He was capable of such things even after the end to his Father.
I mean look at the great Codex Astartes.
In all seriousness though I think the lords of Terra and the Inquisition would have some serious trouble swallowing down what the primarchs would have to say about turning their father into the God he didn't want to become. Any primarch would be disappointed with how things have become.


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## tall-guy68 (Dec 2, 2008)

I would love to have the primarchs come back. They obviously couldn't be used in normal table top but in an apocalypse game it would make things interesting and finally progress the stories. Especially since the only primarch that's really dead is Ferris Manis. Theoretically the rest could just pop up or in Sanguinius' case spend a great deal of time at the chiropractor and go at it again.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

tall-guy68 said:


> Especially since the only primarch that's really dead is Ferris Manis.


Yeah... no. Sanguinius is dead. So is Guilliman.

Horus _killed_ Sanguinius. His tomb with his *dead* body is on Baal. End of story.

Fulgrim sliced Guilliman's throat open, who was then interred into stasis _at the point of *death*_. But I'm not gonna debate that second one in this thread, that topic has been beaten like a dead horse repeatedly already.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and make a really random arse comment; but was there any Primarchs in past CSM/SM Codex's. As I surf both Lexicanum and the Web I find pictures of Warhammer 40k Primarchs in miniature form; and many others as well. As of this past hour I have found a Sanguinius, Angron, Guilliman, Leman Russ, Macharius, Imbraham Gaunt, and 3 Random Ecclesiarchy Saints. While I am not sure if they were made for show, or custom built, does anyone here know if perhaps GW made models of them for 2nd or 3rd Edition Codex?

This is made by MurderFace, a third party Wargaming plastic model maker for Terrian and custom jobs 









Remind you of anyone(Magnus??)










El'Johnson....maybe?

These guys apparently came together and made these Customs for Game Day back a couple eyars ago. (http://www.blackmoor.ca/primarchprojarticle.htm)

Any, just putting this out there in case anyone knows about it.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I hope Curze comes back, not Night Haunter and leads the imperium to a new golden age against the forces of chaos.


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

I don't see any of the primarchs returning and I don't think they should. 


As they are, the loyalist primarchs are all gone or dead, yet the Imperium reveres their names and fights in their honour like some pantheon of gods guiding their hands. 

The Chaos primarchs are few in number and likewise figures of borderline myth to the Imperium for the most part. 

Point is, they don't NEED to actually do anything at this point because they've already become legends in their own right, in many cases deified or equivalent. They belong right where they are in this setting, as figures of distant awe. 


If it were 30k or Post-40k, maybe. But not as things stand. Not in present 40k.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

emporershand89 said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb here and make a really random arse comment; but was there any Primarchs in past CSM/SM Codex's. As I surf both Lexicanum and the Web I find pictures of Warhammer 40k Primarchs in miniature form; and many others as well. As of this past hour I have found a Sanguinius, Angron, Guilliman, Leman Russ, Macharius, Imbraham Gaunt, and 3 Random Ecclesiarchy Saints. While I am not sure if they were made for show, or custom built, does anyone here know if perhaps GW made models of them for 2nd or 3rd Edition Codex?
> 
> Any, just putting this out there in case anyone knows about it.


No, there have never been any primarch rules in any Codex. 

Angron did have rules once in epic, the 6mm scale game published by GW. He may have also had an Apocalypse data sheet at one point. 

The only official primarch models are the one's being released by forgeworld (and the old epic angron). Any others you see are conversions or 3rd party products. 
@Lux How is Curze going to come back since he's dead? How do you separate Curze from the Night Haunter? They're one in the same. _Prince of Crows_ suggests Night Haunter was by far Curze's preferred persona and his 'true' one. All his justifications about justice and rule through fear were a sham, he did it because he enjoyed it, like his psychopathic sons.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Rems said:


> How is Curze going to come back since he's dead? How do you separate Curze from the Night Haunter? They're one in the same. _Prince of Crows_ suggests Night Haunter was by far Curze's preferred persona and his 'true' one. All his justifications about justice and rule through fear were a sham, he did it because he enjoyed it, like his psychopathic sons.


Don't....just don't.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

You went and opened the Ninth Gate, Rems. Are you ready for the knowledge hidden within?


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

As i typed a sense of dread came over me; i knew i should stop before it was too late, i knew to tempt the beast was foolish, that i would become the recipient of knowledge i did not want. But i was weak, i couldn't stop myself.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

You've gone and taken a peek into Pandora's Box. Just sayin'.....


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Pandora's box also contained hope... Let's just wait and see.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Who's Pandora, and how do I get into her box?


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Tawa said:


> Who's Pandora, and how do I get into her box?


Trust me man... been there... you want no part of that... uke:

You cannot know of the horrors I saw in there... :shok:


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

*puts on rubber suit*

I'm game for anything :crazy:


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## Uveron (Jun 11, 2011)

The problem is if any of the Primarchs came back whom says they would have the same agendas as they had 10k again! 

(I for one would welcome the return of a Primarch leading a new galaxy spanning Genestealer Cult!)


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## Eleaxus (Aug 1, 2009)

Rems said:


> No, there have never been any primarch rules in any Codex.
> 
> Angron did have rules once in epic, the 6mm scale game published by GW. He may have also had an Apocalypse data sheet at one point.
> 
> ...





Angel of Blood said:


> Don't....just don't.





Chompy Bits said:


> Trust me man... been there... you want no part of that... uke:
> 
> You cannot know of the horrors I saw in there... :shok:





Tawa said:


> Who's Pandora, and how do I get into her box?


Fulgrim... Curze... and Lionel... Mmmm


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

Rems said:


> Angron did have rules once in epic, the 6mm scale game published by GW.


There was also Fulgrim, Mortarion & Magnus


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

> And lore wise, Abaddon has forged pacts with and gained the support of most of the Chaos Primarchs for his 13th Black Crusade. The Despoiler intends to unleash them, along with their daemonic hordes, when he is able to establish the Crimson Path. Of course though, this will never actually come to pass in the lore because the setting will never advance beyond 999.M41.


[/QUOTE]


Originally I've had concerns about the direction the story has taken in a few aspects. Superman characters and "taming" of other characters. So tell me why you don't want to story to progress past 999.M41? What would be so horrible at resolving these plot lines. So many left open and never resolved or just retconned. Even you have complained with the new Fulgrim plot change. You think that will be the end of it? The writers do not have the ability to make truly "new" stories. So they have started looking at old stories and began to tweak them. That's why there isn't a legitimate characterization for the Emperor yet and most of his sons have suffered the same lack of solid characterization. Some of the best novels in the Heresy series have been tweaked to fit new fluff. This will not stop. How will progressing the story line make this any worse?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Deadeye776 said:


> So tell me why you don't want to story to progress past 999.M41? What would be so horrible at resolving these plot lines?


The setting is frozen at the Time of Ending, even moving the clock forward a single century would realistically see the end of the Imperium. Remember, the theme behind Warhammer 40,000 isn't that the Imperium will one day emerge triumphant. It's the chronicle of how humanity ends, inch by inch. If you allow progression there won't be an Imperium left to be the protagonists. 



Deadeye776 said:


> So many left open and never resolved or just retconned. Even you have complained with the new Fulgrim plot change. You think that will be the end of it?


I don't think complaining about minor elements of a HH novel can be realistically compared to wanting a major timeline progression across the whole setting. Just because I don't want the timeline to advance doesn't mean I have to like and enjoy all plot developments that are incorporated into the setting.



Deadeye776 said:


> The writers do not have the ability to make truly "new" stories. So they have started looking at old stories and began to tweak them. That's why there isn't a legitimate characterization for the Emperor yet and most of his sons have suffered the same lack of solid characterization. Some of the best novels in the Heresy series have been tweaked to fit new fluff. This will not stop. How will progressing the story line make this any worse?


I disagree. The writers have an almost endless opportunity to create new stories and incorporate them into the setting. They've been doing it for decades, and will continue to do so. 

And I would argue that some Primarchs lack a solid characterisation because of a lack of talent in the BL author-pool, not because of the nature of the setting.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And I would argue that some Primarchs lack a solid characterisation because of a lack of talent in the BL author-pool, not because of the nature of the setting.


Indeed, compare Aaron's Curze, Angron or Lorgar to Swallow's Mortarion or Lee's El'Johnson. 

It's clearly evident that given the right author 40k novels can have characterization and emotional depth as easily as they have battle scenes. 

Just look at the glimpse we get inside Curze's mind and his legion's members in _The Prince of Crows. _


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And I would argue that some Primarchs lack a solid characterisation because of a lack of talent in the BL author-pool, not because of the nature of the setting.


Completely agree


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Indeed. At the moment I would be more than content for ADB, Abnett and Wraight to write the rest of the Heresy series alone. They seem to be the only ones capable of really bringing some character and flavour to the Primarchs and their Legions. Abnetts Horus, Alpharius Omegon and Guilliman, ADB's Lorgar, Angron, the Lion and Curze, Wraights Khagan. Or the smaller almost cameo roles the trio have written for Sanguinius, Russ, Mortarion and Corax, along with all of their Legions. Mcneill initially started well with Magnus and his Sons, and Fulgrim, but then lost it after that in most opinions.


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

I have contemplated your question over the past week...on how Curze would return to save the Imperium. 

I will be creating a thread later today...


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## Deadeye776 (May 26, 2011)

> Child-of-the-Emperor said:
> 
> 
> > The setting is frozen at the Time of Ending, even moving the clock forward a single century would realistically see the end of the Imperium. Remember, the theme behind Warhammer 40,000 isn't that the Imperium will one day emerge triumphant. It's the chronicle of how humanity ends, inch by inch. If you allow progression there won't be an Imperium left to be the protagonists.
> ...


I would agree to an extent. I think if there was more consistency with the fluff, the writers wouldn't have the ability to screw things up. That's why you have solid characterizations for popular characters so the writers have to adjust the environment to the character and not the character to the environment.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Deadeye776 said:


> saying wouldn't it be crazy if they did it. All these "doomsday" franchises never have the balls to legitimately pull the trigger. Let the Imperium be destroyed. Let a new status quo be established with the remanents. You could bring the Primarchs back as trying to restore humanity in a Chaos controlled universe. Hell you could even bring back the Emperor in those conditions. Legions lost. Terra lost. Stop the bullshit bluffing and pull the trigger. It could be one of a kind. Who wouldn't like to see a story of the battle to retake Holy Terra, Mars, and the System?


You mean retake them from the swirling mess of nothing they've become by the opening of the Webway portal?

I think you maybe don't understand what a doomsday scenario is, or the drastic effect it would have on 40k. The end of the Imperium is the end of Mankind, it is the end of humanity and therefore every human character. It's hard to have a story that is compelling and engaging to people that doesn't involve humans (it can be done, but it takes way more talent than GW/BL have and really doesn't work as a shift). It's also hard to run a wargame with out a 'home' team, and regardless of whether or not you play them the Imperium is the home team. Every other race is defined by their relationship to the Imperium as much as by their own character. Whole races barely interact with each other, and have little reason to. Remove the Imperium and you remove the bread that's holding the setting together, sure the bits that are left are tasty but they're not a sandwich. There is no 40k without the Imperium and there is no Imperium in 41k.



> I use to think the same. To be honest though, they don't have "endless opportunity" because they can't project or progress forward, only into the past. That's regression. That means every story can only reference past events.


Look at the Gaunt's Ghosts, Ravenor/Eisenhorn and Cain books. Each and every one is set in the past of 40k. Each and everyone is technically a past event, some are even told as past events. Each and every one is also compelling and progressive. Where is the regression in the Sabbat World's Crusade? You can't even say with absolute certainty who will win, despite it being technically history. That's because 40k's history is so vast that absolutely epic stories can disappear into it, only to be pulled out by any writer with the skill and drive to do so. There are entire crusades/strange discoveries/first encounters, the interesting lives and violent deaths of billions of people, out their to be explored. To say that simply because a story is set in the past (never mind a wholly fictional and barely revealed past) means it can't be engaging is absolute rubbish. That many writers choose (or are forced) to make their novel a expansion on some already vaguely known story doesn't mean that that's all they can do, and the best clearly don't do that/


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

The Primarchs were never meant to be a part of "modern" 40K lore as it was laid down at the start of 2nd Edition. They, and the Horus Heresy in general, were supposed to be a part of the long forgotten past.


What makes that seem weird to younger/newer players to the game is that the Horus Heresy is more accessible than the bog-standard game fluff these days. In the 40K universe, the primarchs still don't really matter. Not even the daemon ones (Lorgar has done what, write a book for ten thousand years?).


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## Soul_Of_Iron (Jan 1, 2014)

I agree this would be totally epic...  I think my favorite would be Russ, maybe the Lion... Or... Sweet Jesus... if they came back together...  Awesome stuff...


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Veteran Sergeant said:


> The Primarchs were never meant to be a part of "modern" 40K lore as it was laid down at the start of 2nd Edition. They, and the Horus Heresy in general, were supposed to be a part of the long forgotten past.


Quite true bro, but I think 40k players have gotten hooked on the Horus Heresy and they want to know more about it. Similar to the LOTR fab that caught GW during the time LOTR Trilogy was in theatres so to is Horus Heresy grabbing folks attention while the going is good. I would not be surprised if they released "Heresy-themed Models;" they may already have. Give it time it will die when Gaunt and Cain actually have a good adventure. 



MEQinc said:


> The end of the Imperium is the end of Mankind, it is the end of humanity and therefore every human character..........There is no 40k without the Imperium and there is no Imperium in 41k.


Good sir I would challenge you on that, how do we know there is no Imperium of Man going into the 41st Millenia? Unless I have missed something the Imperium is still in existence right up to the 41st Millenia, and even hints at future events, characters, and races of the future. I have yet to read any Lore, other than the "End Times" rubbish, that tells me such. Therefore I would say no, the Imperium will contiue to exist; if with less territory and power. If anything the future might bring our missing Primarchs back, or finish off untold stories with very "Grey" endings. 

Also if the Imperium was destroyed, hypothetically and quite a large feat to undertake, would Mankind really disappear? They may take a new name, new face, new story but do you think they would have an extinction level event that the Eldar suffered? I for one am calling BS on the writers! The Eldar are still in existence, both Good and Evil, after untold trillions of dead and a new Choas God surfacing to power. Additionally writers of other Game Systems have always kept the human race alive; it is an natural reflex. Magic: The Gather saved the human race from the _Kami_ back in "Champions of Kamiguwa; and they brought them back in a new empire with even more power than before. Mass Effect 3 saw humanity raped and still we survived and even thrived (depending on the ending you choose). The list is endless, but we as humans naturally want to survive, and thus don't really try and think on our mutual destruction (with the exception of the whack jobs).


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

emporershand89 said:


> Good sir I would challenge you on that, how do we know there is no Imperium of Man going into the 41st Millenia? Unless I have missed something the Imperium is still in existence right up to the 41st Millenia, and even hints at future events, characters, and races of the future. I have yet to read any Lore, other than the "End Times" rubbish, that tells me such.


So aside from the fact that 40k is explictedly described as the end of the Imperium you see no reason to believe that moving the timeline forward would end the Imperium? 40k is the Time of Ending, therefore anything after that occurs after the End. Sure that probably doesn't happen the second the clock ticks over to 41k but that's not really relavent. I didn't use 41k in the strictly chronological sense but rather as a convinient shorthand for an advanced timeline. 



> or finish off untold stories with very "Grey" endings.


You can't finish off a dozen different appocalpyse storylines in a 'grey' fashion. The major storylines require a certain type of event to be considered finished and those events aren't ones that a survivable.



> They may take a new name, new face, new story but do you think they would have an extinction level event that the Eldar suffered?


1) Yes they would have an extinction event equivalent to the Eldar. The Webway portal under Terra will consume the sector at the very least, if not more. 
2) Whether or not humanity survives in some form depends on who exactly wins. The most likely scenario sees humans survive primarily as Chaos worshippers (which I don't really view as being human any more) and in scattered groups of no real significance to the galaxy at large. Humanity will cease to exist in any meaningful way.



> The Eldar are still in existence, both Good and Evil, after untold trillions of dead and a new Choas God surfacing to power.


How did the Eldar survive? They fled. They either fled their empire before it fell or as it was doing so. They fled to the corners of the galaxy and a parallel dimension. Can humanity do this? No. They cannot flee in meaningful way to the Webway or any other dimension and there is no corner of the galaxy safe from their enemies. The Eldar fell to themselves, the Imperium will fall to others. That's a completely different scenario.



> Additionally writers of other Game Systems have always kept the human race alive; it is an natural reflex. Magic: The Gather saved the human race from the _Kami_ back in "Champions of Kamiguwa; and they brought them back in a new empire with even more power than before. Mass Effect 3 saw humanity raped and still we survived and even thrived (depending on the ending you choose). The list is endless, but we as humans naturally want to survive, and thus don't really try and think on our mutual destruction (with the exception of the whack jobs).


Humanity wins in those examples. Humanity always survives because humanity always wins. And humanity always wins because we need them to survive. Humanity isn't going to win 40k. This is exactly why they won't move the timeline forward, because humanity can't win and therefore humanity won't survive. As you say, no one wants to think about how ultimatley futile it all is and thus no one will enjoy an advanced timeline.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I'd like to throw the weight of my opinion, for what its worth, behind _MEQ_'s stance. The entire setting of 40k is geared to be the end of humanity, that is how 40k is unique. As ADB said: "The theme behind Warhammer 40,000 isn't that the Imperium will one day emerge triumphant. It's the chronicle of how humanity ends, inch by inch". 

Within the lore it has consistently been stated that if the Emperor dies, humanity falls. Not only because of the failure of the Astronomican but because he is the only thing preventing humanity embracing Chaos en masse. And that isn't even taking into account the plethora of other internal and external threats present.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

-I also not see how the IOM can get out of this kerfuffle, chaos nids necrons orks... however the downfall will take a while, as such there might be some fighting left in the next millenium.
-The only reference I heard of supporting mankind in the 41st Millenium are the writings of Cain ?
-GW might bring the primarchs back when sales drop, however fluff wise I am not convinced primarchs returning will be a boon for mankind as the HH learned us they tend to be emotionally unstable


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## Altair117 (Feb 13, 2014)

Well........
If u think about it it would result in a massive civil war our it would invite all the best of chaos and other enemies to unite against the emperor. In the end the emperor would be cooked along with every single space marines chapter unless they turned which for some chapters it is impossible for them to turn against the emperor like the Grey Knights. But on the other hand there might just be a huge celebration.


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## GoRy (Apr 1, 2008)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I'd like to throw the weight of my opinion, for what its worth, behind _MEQ_'s stance. The entire setting of 40k is geared to be the end of humanity, that is how 40k is unique. As ADB said: "The theme behind Warhammer 40,000 isn't that the Imperium will one day emerge triumphant. It's the chronicle of how humanity ends, inch by inch".
> 
> Within the lore it has consistently been stated that if the Emperor dies, humanity falls. Not only because of the failure of the Astronomican but because he is the only thing preventing humanity embracing Chaos en masse. And that isn't even taking into account the plethora of other internal and external threats present.


I like the idea of it being Humanity's slow fall to oblivion. Very dark. More and more threats emerge - the Tyranids being a masterstroke in this respect IMO. 

See, I don't think you're essentially right in the second part. It may have originally been how it was in fluff, but now the HH books have delved into the past, they have underlined a few (key) points of previous fluff that I know think are invalid.

First, the Astronomican existed well before the Golden Throne. How? No idea. It certainly didn't take all the Emperors power back then. How do we know this? Multiple references in Multiple books - arguably to multiple golden thrones, in Mechanicum and in A Thousand Sons...I find references to be clashing. On one hand, it's not yet working properly by the time Mars goes to war - and it's clearly the golden throne - yet it's being used in the webway project in ATS.

Second, He's not the only thing preventing humanity embracing Chaos en masse. If this was the case, it would have happened before he took power and started fighting back against Chaos from the fore.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

GoRy said:


> First, the Astronomican existed well before the Golden Throne. How? No idea. It certainly didn't take all the Emperors power back then. How do we know this? Multiple references in Multiple books - arguably to multiple golden thrones, in Mechanicum and in A Thousand Sons...I find references to be clashing. On one hand, it's not yet working properly by the time Mars goes to war - and it's clearly the golden throne - yet it's being used in the webway project in ATS.


It's been theorized that the Emperor in his prime was able to direct the Astronomican while performing his other duties. 



GoRy said:


> Second, He's not the only thing preventing humanity embracing Chaos en masse. If this was the case, it would have happened before he took power and started fighting back against Chaos from the fore."


He does in the sense that he unintentionally created a new religion for the masses to follow thus making them not likely to seek out other 'meanings' of life.

In addition, his instructions for the Inquisition to suppress any and all knowledge of chaos from the general masses helps humanity not succumb to chaos as they probably would in a religion-free universe/a universe filled with scary aliens.

Also, he is actively keeping a large portal closed (underneath the Palace of Terra) to prevent a massive and never ending horde of daemons from breaking into reality. It can be argued that because they are trying to enter from a breach in the Webway (a physical conduit tied to the warp), the portal will never be closed not unless the Eldar get involved (which even if they wanted to, the chances of them doing so in an extremely xenophobic human empire are next to impossible).


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## GoRy (Apr 1, 2008)

Malus Darkblade said:


> It's been theorized that the Emperor in his prime was able to direct the Astronomican while performing his other duties.


Indeed, but this is a new cannon vs old cannon type thing. Formerly, he had to direct the majority of his power towards it. Now, he could do it while doing other things. Contradictory. Do we follow old 40k cannon or BL fluff?



Malus Darkblade said:


> He does in the sense that he unintentionally created a new religion for the masses to follow thus making them not likely to seek out other 'meanings' of life.
> 
> In addition, his instructions for the Inquisition to suppress any and all knowledge of chaos from the general masses helps humanity not succumb to chaos as they probably would in a religion-free universe/a universe filled with scary aliens.


Fair point. Ordo Malleus was created under his direct orders. I however think he'd be pretty pissed at the Lectitio Divinatus and the Ecclesiarchy.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Also, he is actively keeping a large portal closed (underneath the Palace of Terra) to prevent a massive and never ending horde of daemons from breaking into reality. It can be argued that because they are trying to enter from a breach in the Webway (a physical conduit tied to the warp), the portal will never be closed not unless the Eldar get involved (which even if they wanted to, the chances of them doing so in an extremely xenophobic human empire are next to impossible).


Again, fair point but a little bit removed from the discussion about the Astronomican. He could keep an entire portal safe previously. It could be argued that just the opening might indeed be easier. Further, if the webway is a seperate dimension to warp space or real space, how are the demons there?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

GoRy said:


> Indeed, but this is a new cannon vs old cannon type thing. Formerly, he had to direct the majority of his power towards it. Now, he could do it while doing other things. Contradictory. Do we follow old 40k cannon or BL fluff?


How do you suppose the Astrominican was powered in any of the previous fluff prior to him being entombed on the Golden Throne? Also if I am not mistaken, the Emperor never empowered the Astromincan, rather he directed its powers as no one other than him had enough strength and mastery of the warp to control such vast amounts of power.



GoRy said:


> Again, fair point but a little bit removed from the discussion about the Astronomican. He could keep an entire portal safe previously. It could be argued that just the opening might indeed be easier. Further, if the webway is a seperate dimension to warp space or real space, how are the demons there?



The tear in the Webway was kept at bay by the Sigillite while the Emperor did battle with Horus aboard the Vengeful Spirit. Malcador withered away upon the Emperor's return. So now the Emperor is keeping it closed. It's that simple.

The Webway is made of Wraithbone which is warp matter. The webway is a tunnel through the warp so it's not purely physical I suppose. But more importantly, Chaos can manifest in any dimension most likely even the ones the Necrons constructed. Khorne's bloodhound that hunts for prey it's marked through any of the various dimensions comes to mind.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

GoRy said:


> Indeed, but this is a new cannon vs old cannon type thing. Formerly, he had to direct the majority of his power towards it.
> 
> Further, if the webway is a seperate dimension to warp space or real space, how are the demons there?


Can you let me know about what 'old cannon' states it required the majority of his power? I'm not familiar enough with the old cannon to argue one way or another. What the Emperor can and cannot do pre and post interrment on the Golden Throne is pretty confusing... how he was able to perform the soul bindings while he was out on the GC for decades at a time and direct the Astronomican half-way across the universe while having a giant Ork standing on his neck, these things confuse me, but hey, it's the Big E. I can see the direction of the Astronmican being a minor thing for him, considering the wattage really comes from the thousands of psykers on terminal burn-out, but again, I'm not sure about the original fluff.

To my understanding, the Big E was knitting the Human Webway/Portal into the Eldar/Old Ones Webway, when it was foiled by Magnus breaking through and creating a tear between the two... this is what allows the demons from the Warp to pour into Terra, right in the place where the Astropathic Choir and the Astronomican are creating the largest psychic beacons in the galaxy to attract every nasty, including the Nids evidently, to a party.


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## Tugger (Jul 22, 2013)

Now I have not read the whole thread, and somebody has probably already posted a point that would refute this, but I think it would be cool to advance the timeline a bit and bring back the Primarchs for a round two war, kind of like a Ragnarok scenario. I honestly have not read any of the novels, but from what I understand (If I miss any, feel free to correct me):

Guilliman was put in stasis at the point of death, and I believe I read somewhere that some believe his wounds are slowly regenerating

Lion El Johnson is somewhere on the Rock or whatever

Russ has been busy bitch slapping chaos forces in the eye of terror with the 13th company or something

Dorn got his hand cut off. I highly doubt that is enough to kill a Primarch

Corax also is probably cracking skulls in the eye of terror

Sanguinis. Well that sucker died. Who knows, maybe he is regenerating in his tomb like Guilliman

Vulcan is a perpetual, from what a buddy tells me and is almost invincible

Ferrus Manus had his head cut off. However I read somewhere that the living metal from that giant worm dragon thing he killed filled his entire body on the inside, so I would like to think his head just has to be brought to his body to be reattached

Khan is hunting Dark Eldar scum in the warp

Horus was killed, however Abaddon is his clone and has ascended to gain more power than Horus ever had

Alpharius/Omegon one was possibly killed, while from what I understand, one of them could still be a kind of deep cover loyalist

Lorgar is a Daemon Prince...so still alive

Angron....Daemon Prince

Fulgrim....Daemon Prince

Perturabo....Daemon Prince

Magnus....Daemon Prince

Mortarion....Daemon Prince

Kurze was never confirmed to be killed, possibly has repented his actions in the heresy if still alive, might have faked his death

Therefore, none of them in my mind are actually dead.

I dunno, take what I think here with a grain of salt, as I have never really researched into any of this really. This is just stuff I have read on wikis, heard from buddies that are really into the novels etc. In my mind, all the Primarchs are going to return after the Emperor dies on the throne and is reborn into a new body. Then a massive heresy 2.0 war will start. Thats what I would like to see at least.

Again this is just what I imagine would be the next step. Just my two cents really.


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## Tugger (Jul 22, 2013)

Tugger said:


> Russ has been busy bitch slapping chaos forces in the eye of terror with the 13th company or something


Plus with some of them mentioning that they will return when humanity needs them the most (Russ is supposed to return for the Wolf Time or something that is in my mind a war to decide the final fate of the galaxy) etc etc etc

And not to mention that each Black Crusade has pushed closer and closer to Terra. The next one will break through! Muahahahaha


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## Tugger (Jul 22, 2013)

Actually, it would be cool to see the traiter legions reach Terra, Abaddon kills the Emperor on the Golden Throne, the Webway opens up and releases hordes of Daemons, and on the other edge of the galaxy, the Emperor is reborn, the loyal Primarchs return to his side, and then Begin a crusade to retake Terra from the forces of Chaos, and find a way to collapse the Webway portal (or even use it to return to Terra) in a kind of reversal of the Horus Heresy.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Tugger said:


> Actually, it would be cool to see the traiter legions reach Terra, Abaddon kills the Emperor on the Golden Throne, the Webway opens up and releases hordes of Daemons, and on the other edge of the galaxy, the Emperor is reborn, the loyal Primarchs return to his side, and then Begin a crusade to retake Terra from the forces of Chaos, and find a way to collapse the Webway portal (or even use it to return to Terra) in a kind of reversal of the Horus Heresy.


So basically Unification Wars 2.0?


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## Tugger (Jul 22, 2013)

Pretty much. I think that story would be pretty bad ass, and it would make for a pretty awesome campaign for gaming purposes, would probably get a bunch of old fans back into the hobby, bring new fans to the hobby and keep interest for those already in it. Not to mention all the novels they could make etc etc.

Ps, I apologize for kind of going on a rant haha.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Few issues:
1: Curze is dead. No uncertainty there; his head was removed. 

2: Guilliman was put into a stasis field at the moment of his death. Even if he isn't actually dead, he is functionally dead, and time doesn't move within the field so he couldn't possibly be healing. For all intents and purposes, he is very much dead.

3: Sang is kaput. No potential healing, just dead.

4: Unfortunately no terminator 2 regeneration for Manus

5: They only managed to recover one of Dorn's hands and his death is pretty much given.

6: Yup, Horus is dead. Nope, Abby isn't a clone. Forgot my scouter at home, so I couldn't say for sure, but........ maybe?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> 2: Guilliman was put into a stasis field at the moment of his death. Even if he isn't actually dead, he is functionally dead, and time doesn't move within the field so he couldn't possibly be healing. For all intents and purposes, he is very much dead.


But it does according to the monstrosity that was Pandorax.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> But it does according to the monstrosity that was Pandorax.


………. what?


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> ………. what?


http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1428507&postcount=21


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## incinerator950 (Mar 23, 2014)

This is like asking them to balance their codexes at once instead of random authors playing their favorite game, or BL having a coherent line and quality material.


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## Tugger (Jul 22, 2013)

gen.ahab said:


> Few issues:
> 1: Curze is dead. No uncertainty there; his head was removed.
> 
> 2: Guilliman was put into a stasis field at the moment of his death. Even if he isn't actually dead, he is functionally dead, and time doesn't move within the field so he couldn't possibly be healing. For all intents and purposes, he is very much dead.
> ...


I knew my train of thought would have plenty of holes. It would be a cool build up though if non wof them were dead haha.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1428507&postcount=21


......... The fuck did I just read?


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> 4: Unfortunately no terminator 2 regeneration for Manus


True, but it's a pretty cool - and a touch creepy - idea :good:


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Tawa said:


> True, but it's a pretty cool - and a touch creepy - idea :good:


True, but could you imagine waking up after that? Be a bit mind fuck, I would imagine. :laugh:


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

gen.ahab said:


> True, but could you imagine waking up after that? Be a bit mind fuck, I would imagine. :laugh:


"Oh man. I am _NEVER_ going out drinking with Angron again....." uke:


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Tawa said:


> "Oh man. I am _NEVER_ going out drinking with Angron again....." uke:


"Every time I party with Fulgrim that asshole completely makes me lose my head."


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

1. Curze's death has never been confirmed, only from the indirect statement of a third hand spectator who could have been told to state those things by Curze himself.

2. Gulliman is alive within stasis, as it is also stated he was entered on the brink of death.
2A. The Iron heart machine is stated to be able to heal people while they are in stasis, and the Ultramarines currently have it in their possession.

3. Sang is kept in Stasis, he could very well be in a coma

4. The newest fluff states that only thing they recovered of Dorn was a single hand, in an empty escape pod. His status is unknown, but his chances of being alive and dead are equal.

5. Ferrus Manus is currently stored on Mars, and is likely being kept alive with C'Tan technology.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Lux said:


> 5. Ferrus Manus is currently stored on Mars, and is likely being kept alive with C'Tan technology.


You're mistaken. He's replaced the Void Dragon as the Mechanicum's source of inspiration for all things technology.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Malus Darkblade said:


> You're mistaken. He's replaced the Void Dragon as the Mechanicum's source of inspiration for all things technology.


Hmmmm... how do you know he hasn't become or merged with the Void Dragon?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Lux said:


> 1. Curze's death has never been confirmed, only from the indirect statement of a third hand spectator who could have been told to state those things by Curze himself.
> 
> 2. Gulliman is alive within stasis, as it is also stated he was entered on the brink of death.
> 2A. The Iron heart machine is stated to be able to heal people while they are in stasis, and the Ultramarines currently have it in their possession.
> ...


I am almost kicking myself for indulging you, but fuck it, I'm in a good mood.

Other than 4, and I would still argue that one, you are as usual utterly wrong regarding everything you said. But apart from that........yeah.


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## pookie9121 (Apr 17, 2012)

It would be nice to bring the Primarchs back for the end times. (and that doesn't even necessarily mean the end of human existence it could be the end of the entire emperor/primarch chapter of the 40k universe)

Cheers,
Erik


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

You know it to be so


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> you are as usual utterly wrong regarding everything you said


But Angel of Blood this is mighty Lux we speak of here. Do not doubt the word of the Founder of the Chruch of Lux. :grin:


On the thought of the Primarchs I actually must concur with Lux on this one folks; mainly based on the Fluff we have read. I cannot account for Dorns hand...never heard that before. Sarris and Guilliman are indeed held in Stasis and other Primarchs are saidt o be tracing around the Void in search of the ultimate challenge. 

GW will use them for a bit, mlik any and all revenue out of them, and then caste them back into the analogues of Warhammer 40k history. i do not expect there to be a new story line, nor for the Primarchs to make some sudden ans truimphant return.


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## Nacho libre (Feb 23, 2013)

emporershand89 said:


> But Angel of Blood this is mighty Lux we speak of here. Do not doubt the word of the Founder of the Chruch of Lux. :grin:
> 
> 
> On the thought of the Primarchs I actually must concur with Lux on this one folks; mainly based on the Fluff we have read. I cannot account for Dorns hand...never heard that before. Sarris and Guilliman are indeed held in Stasis and other Primarchs are saidt o be tracing around the Void in search of the ultimate challenge.
> ...


Fucking hell I remember that thread. It was weird and fun... But in the end it resulted in a squirrel army and lux being envisioned as chaos gos no. 5.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Don't bring me back into this lunacy. Regards.


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## Nacho libre (Feb 23, 2013)

Angel of Blood said:


> Don't bring me back into this lunacy. Regards.


Dont worry mate that shit is dead and gone.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

emporershand89 said:


> But Do not doubt the word of the Founder of the Chruch of Lux. :grin:




That would be me then


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## AgentOrange24 (Mar 25, 2010)

In light of how powerful the Primarchs have actually been shown to be in the HH series, they're going to have to retcon Dorn's death. 

Sorry, but "killed in boarding action by Chaos Marines" doesn't really cut it anymore. Not when we've seen just how far above SM's they really are.

Or, they'll just stick to "WH40k is a setting, not a story" and leave it at that.


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