# Cypher



## CommanderAnthor (Sep 28, 2008)

In the game is Cypher evil or good?

And also what do you think of him fluff wise good or evil?


Personally I think hes a jackass and wouldn't forgive him lol


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

Cypher is supposedly taking the Lion Blade (or whatever its called) to the emperor to heal him thats what I heard atleast, I think its canon... that means I hate him. :biggrin:


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

No one knows for sure as the details are vague..VERY vague everytime the character is captured by the Dark Angel hes whisked away by some flying spaghetti monster, read the incident with the Black Templars...its real messed up. I personally think he is a bitter old man just itching to kick the Emps in the nuts for not foreseeing it.


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## CommanderAnthor (Sep 28, 2008)

No lionel johnson was going back to his home planet and when he got there Cypher (luther) whatever had turned some of his angels chaos and they battled and I think lionel johnson lost and when cypher killed him he snapped out of chaos realizing what he had done and chaos realized their champion had fallen so they sent a warp storm whisking them away.


So now he teleports all over supposedly and has the Lion Blade and is trying to have it forged so he can take it back to the Emperor as an Apologie to redeem himself, be forgiven, and have his curse broken.


Is his model useable in the game? And if so does he fight for Dark Angels?


Also what happened with the templars?


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

CommanderAnthor said:


> No lionel johnson was going back to his home planet and when he got there Cypher (luther) whatever had turned some of his angels chaos and they battled and I think lionel johnson lost and when cypher killed him he snapped out of chaos realizing what he had done and chaos realized their champion had fallen so they sent a warp storm whisking them away.
> 
> 
> So now he teleports all over supposedly and has the Lion Blade and is trying to have it forged so he can take it back to the Emperor as an Apologie to redeem himself, be forgiven, and have his curse broken.
> ...


I dunno if the model is still produced so I'll have to look, hes not in the dex so I dont think he is, but no he doesnt fight for the DA he fights for Chaos or otherwise known as the Fallen.

I also dont agree with your first statement, 1st off the Lions not dead, hate to say it but not dead :cray: and also Luther isnt the Cypher... noone knows his actuall name, Luther is either dead or being watched by the 'watchers' with the Lion.


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## comrade (Jun 30, 2008)

Yeah, he definitely wasn't luther

Its very..umm.. complicated the story of the DA, some may even say the 'Fallen' were the actual loyalists, while the current DA where sitting on the fence seeing who would get the upperhand in the Horus Heresy, and if you read up on the fluff, it would seem very much so.

Cypher.. hmm.. vague, he was some sort of High ranking guy in the DA, and was whisked away when the 'Fallen' spread throughout the warp.

He is also playable in IG armies, just to let that out.

Personally, I think he is loyalist, or just a guy that wants to finish his life quest and be left alone. Nothing wrong in that I think.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

I don't think Cypher is in any dex right now. 

Luther is still alive in the chambers below the rock, along with Lion El'Johnson.

Some rumors say that Cypher is Lion, but that is unlikely and goes against any of the other cannon that we have heard. 

I think Cypher is a loylist that has a secret that the rest of the Dark Angels do not want him to release or share.


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## Lord Lucius (Sep 18, 2008)

nothing to do with fluff but how do u use a bolt pistol & plasma pistol(in game)as thats what Cypher had.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

He has a special rule that allowed him to fire both.


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## revenant13 (Feb 15, 2008)

isnt he protected by the chaos gods or somesuch? wouldnt that make him traitor? cant imagine why the chaos gods would wanna protect the guy who is supposedly gonna to heal their greatest enemy.


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## CommanderAnthor (Sep 28, 2008)

revenant13 said:


> isnt he protected by the chaos gods or somesuch? wouldnt that make him traitor? cant imagine why the chaos gods would wanna protect the guy who is supposedly gonna to heal their greatest enemy.


Dammit noisemarine I hate when you dothat, well Iread cyphers story on lexacinum or whatever it's called real quick so I might be flawed.

Also to revenant he was at first but he realized what he did and snapped out of it so chaos felt that he went back and sent a warp storm to grab the traitor DA's. I don't think hes protected I think hegets whisked away because he knows to much or somthing from chaos.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

the really wierd thing is that, "Cypher" is one man in the whole Dark Angels legion who looks after the traditional items, theres also a cypher in "desent of angels".

so it could be that Cypher is actually good and just looking after the Lions Sword, but in a dark angels novel, a world turns chaos and the cultists are called "cyphers followers" so the scales are even 

and i dont think the lion sword can heal the emperor


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

Yea doesnt the chaplain tell the commander to tell Astelan that he was right about the DA as a whole and about Cypher?


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

ye, the book is called "angels of darkness" and i cant remeber all of it but this one DA SP has been captured by a Interrigator Chaplian.

the DA says that loin'el johnson was actually traitor during HH because he waited to see who would win then he would have sided with them, he also says Luther was the loyal one and that Cypher has his own chaos cult going on.


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## CommanderAnthor (Sep 28, 2008)

Ferrus Manus said:


> ye, the book is called "angels of darkness" and i cant remeber all of it but this one DA SP has been captured by a Interrigator Chaplian.
> 
> the DA says that loin'el johnson was actually traitor during HH because he waited to see who would win then he would have sided with them, he also says Luther was the loyal one and that Cypher has his own chaos cult going on.


That sounds like areal good book lol


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

ye, its a good book but really confusing because each chapter (in the book) is about a different person, place and subject.


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## Emperor's Fang (Feb 28, 2008)

I got an idea of who Cypher is; it's Zahariel the main character in Descent of Angels. He was one of the Dark Angels that went with the Lion to face off with the Daemon on Sarosh and yet was sent back to Caliban with Luther. That is when I think that the Lion was possessed by Chaos when they used the modified cyclonic warhead to dispell it, it jumped into the Lion when his psychic defenses went down. Also Zahariel is a psyker and has spoken to the Watchers on Caliban, and we know he slew a Calibanite Lion, just like Lion el'Jonson was supposed to have done. (Odd bit of trivia in the book all the Great Beasts were unique, so how could there be TWO Calibanite Lions. Unless el'Jonson never killed one. Just something to think about.) All those things may have given him a good deal of insight into the Lion and he could have seen what was coming, and has been struggling to report it to the Emp. And the other DA's don't want the Imperium to know that they followed a Chaos thing during the Heresy so that they would not get purged.


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

hmm very interesting revelation. Here is a rep!


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

revenant13 said:


> isnt he protected by the chaos gods or somesuch? wouldnt that make him traitor? cant imagine why the chaos gods would wanna protect the guy who is supposedly gonna to heal their greatest enemy.


It makes total sense to Malal hehe...just something to wrap your mind around :shok:


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## Madeem (Oct 29, 2008)

I think that there is a special mention of him in the old "angels of death" rulebook.

I says there that he is carrying the loins sword, but never uses it. The rumor there is that he is on his way to terra to present the sword in front of the emperor. this way he hopes for absolution for himself and his fallen brothers. theroute that he is taking is getting him closer and closer too terra. It would explain why he joined with abadonn in the crusade.
Allthough his methodes are cruel, they are not worse than what his noble brother are doing.

I think that this is a problem of the dark angels too. should the truth come to light, they would allmost certainly be blown too bits.


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

k lets thin about it this way....

people say the "Lion Sword" can heal the emperor. so if its a really powerful healing relic why are the DA bothering about killing this guy? as long as he's got the sword if will be very hard to kill the guy.

If Zahariel was Cypher because of the whole "you told me to go my room (caliban)" then it would be quite easy to kill the guy, cause of course Zahariel was a powerful psyker so Sisters of silence or the emperor woul kill him easily. 

now this part is very important!!!, if Zahariel is Cypher then Cypher wouldnt have green armour, because during the HH DA had black armour, so if Zahariel was Cypher then Cypher would have the pre heresy armour. because Cypher has the new green armour we can only know that he spilt with the chapter recently.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

Not necessarily because the fallen angels scavenge weapons and armour all the time, it is possible he took it off the battlefield.

All we know is that Cypher was a title used on Caliban before the Emperor arrived. Cypher was the keeper of ceremony and tradition, a very high and well respected rank among the Angels. So he is probably the second highest ranking officer to fall to chaos after Luther (in the loyalists eyes) only Luther snapped out of his possesion making Cypher number one, which is why he is sought after the most. 

It is possible that the current Cypher could be Zahariel as he returned to Caliban with Luther and then next thing you know Caliban is corrupted or at least partially corrupted as i believe not all of the Angels on Caliban fell to chaos. The possessed Luther may have led some astray but as we all know some marines stay loyal as their brothers fall. 

Im pretty sure when Luther snapped out of it and the chaos possessing him was cast from Luther's body it was the one to bring the storm and scatter the Angels as a last attempt at disruption. It seems like the perfect chaos plan to create eternal chaos and conflict within a very powerful and important legion, one with a pure geneseed and an abundance of armour and weapons and one that wasn't too badly scarred after Horus was killed (a legion that would be greatly needed by a weakened imperium and a danger to the battered traitors). Because now the Dark Angels scour the galaxy looking for the fallen whether they are or they aren't (by this i mean some fallen did not follow chaos instead went into hiding becoming mercenaries, pirates and scouts (i read that somewhere)) so it would seem not all are chaos.

The fact that Cypher appears on the battlefield on the side of chaos and against the Imperium seems to make him evil although it should be noted that his appearance always brings the Dark Angels and their help is always needed wherever Cypher pops up, so in a roundabout way he is helping the imperium making him a good guy?

As for his sword, the reason he doesn't wield it is because its broken in half so pretty pointless (pun) and if it is the Lion's sword then we know that Cypher witnessed the battle between the Lion and Luther or at least got there before anyone else and before the storm arose as the sword was used in the battle by the Lion (where it was damaged). One theory with the sword is that if he presents it before the emperor it would be repaired and the Angels would be forgiven. The other theory is he would use the sword to slay the emperor and bring about the star child theory. Another is that he would just kill the emperor and sap the last of the moral from the imperium and lead to its quick demise.

And unlike the warp storms that scattered the angels from Caliban (which was caused by chaos) im not sure the same energies are aiding Cypher in his escapes. I mean why would chaos just 'poof' Cypher away when it would be more likely for chaos to make the Dark Angel escort go 'splat'. So maybe it is the watchers in the dark that aid cypher, so maybe he is good.

And as for the Lion being a traitor, i think not. Why would the watchers in the dark who are against chaos, keep the Lion alive if he was tainted. It would make more sense just to kill him....another blow for chaos. And why would a chaos tainted Lion fight a chaos possessed Luther? Makes no sense unless the Lion was good. Many people say he took his damned time, well lets not forget he was a master tactician and battle planner...planning takes time! Horus plotted for months on Istavaan before heading for Terra! Good plans take time to figure out, after all there are tons of variables and outcomes to consider.

And the Black Templar incident was a terrible black mark on the Angels honour! A Black Templar ship, the Ophidium Gulf was aiding Dark Angel forces in locating 'the voice' (possibly Cypher as their appearances were strikingly similar). The Black Templars captured 'the voice' but were forced to hand him over by the DA at gun point (the DA fleet turned on the BT). The BT handed him over, made one transmission to the high marshall and then were never heard from again. It is presumed the DA destroyed the vessel to hide their secret shame (the fallen). I believe this to be true which is why i say it is a stain on our honour.

So as to the original questioning i think that Cypher is good (well i hope more than i think it)


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

kk nice post *Angel of Retribution*

One of the theories about the Lion Sword is that it can heal the emperor, so maybe Cypher is on chaos's side to reach the emperor, i mean if he tried to get their by himself on ship the whole DA fleet would be behind his ass, so maybe he joined Abbadon because Abbadon was pushing himself more and more into the Imperium and the Eye Of Terror is close to Terra, so if Abbadon did manage to break Cadia's Gate and move forward when Chaos gets close enough to Terra Cypher will break off and go to the emperor himself.

Lion'El being traitor is possible, there was a book that said it and it may just be a theory, but in the book "Angels of Darkness" a once famous DA got captured and interrogated and he said that Lion'El waited to see who would win the HH and join there side, which to me sounds like traitor, thats why he was the last legion of the 3 (Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels) to reach Terra even though he was the closest.

About the Lion'El planning, there should have been no long planing, there were 3 loyal legions moving forward behind the heretic sides!!!! 

*"Whats the plan Johnson?"
"We have 3 legions move in and attack!!"
"But Sir should we go at battle speed or cruising speed?
"Nice question admiral, *thinks*"*

there was no point.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

Sure there should be planning, it was a whole new ball game for these marines.It was brother versus brother. The three legions where heading to Terra at the back of nine legions filled with a huge assortment of corrupted IG and a varied array of demons. Just remember that chaos itself, all the demons and such, were unknown to most. Even after Horus and the legions were corrupted it was only 100% clear when they invaded Terra. Only a fool rushes into battle with his eyes closed. You have to observe your enemy to know who the enemy truelly is. So the planning would take some time whether it was for 1 legion, 3 legions or 20.


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## Exitus_10 (Jul 14, 2008)

really now Angel? woul you really say that? Why would a Legion as large and powerful as that of the Lions need to take its time to plan?. The Imperial Fists had most of their forces of Sol system on route to Isstvan they reached the outer reaches of the system but were beaten back by the Iron Warriors yet they made it in time to Terra. Istavaan was very far away..farther away than the world on which the Dark Angels were making operations, look at the heresy era Map of the Galaxy, I would think that Lion was still choosing sides, he was always a chaos lover that Lion hes got all the trimmings of a Traitor Primarch.


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## Lord Lucius (Sep 18, 2008)

say cypher is good,since he is a fallen he has few allies.so how is he going to get armour ,suplies & weaponry.becom a mercenary & work for Ezecial Abbadon THE DESPOILER!!!!Then betray him & heal the emperor(or kill him & hope hes reborn...).


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## jesse (Sep 29, 2008)

you guys sure do bring alot of interesting information to the table.

i had a question though.
a few posts back there was a mention of the "star child "theory and i was wondering what that was.

also on a side note, the rules for cypher can be found in the chaos space marine codex of two genertations back, so a long long time ago.
he's really powerful and has some nice equipment to boot.
also as one final comment you can buy the cypher model from the games workshop online store under "collectors" with the subsection "chaos space marines" for 17 dollars

thank you guys for your help and i look forward for your future posts


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## SpaNNerZ (Jun 17, 2008)

I actually got vien cypher by a mate who had stopped collecting, I was planning on building a Fallen angels army but that never came to be, I should really.

Anywho as far as I understand it, he holds the Lion sword, thats about all I know

peace out:victory:


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## jesse (Sep 29, 2008)

he has a ctan phase knife a bolt pistol and a plasma pistol.
the lion;s sword is purely decorative


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## CommanderAnthor (Sep 28, 2008)

jesse said:


> he has a ctan phase knife a bolt pistol and a plasma pistol.
> the lion;s sword is purely decorative


Correct, the lion sword is broken.. He carries he around in hopes of having it repaired supposedly and offering it to the emperor as forgivance. Or theres the possbility it will heal the emperor, orrr the posibility he will use it to kill him to bring the star child or whatever it's called.


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## jesse (Sep 29, 2008)

whats the star child? or whatever its called?


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## Grik (Jul 28, 2008)

jesse said:


> whats the star child? or whatever its called?


Supposed to be what the Emperor becomes if he dies. Or a new Emperor or some such. The Eldar have something like it too. Some sort of new god.


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## CommanderAnthor (Sep 28, 2008)

jesse said:


> whats the star child? or whatever its called?


I think the star child is, that supposedly the emperor is killed, and he will be reborned? Or someone or somthing will reborn in his place.


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## jesse (Sep 29, 2008)

like a second coming of sorts? what about like a new emporer? like someone takes his place.

im glad you guys know so much about this stuff. its helpful
thank ya gents

:victory:


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## Unforgiven302 (Oct 20, 2008)

I had to breakout the old Chaos codex to do some research on Cypher. I always liked the mysterious story behind the Dark Angels, and this one is the most shrouded of all. 

In the old codex the story goes: 

El' Jonson goes to war with the dark angels to fight Horus and Company. Left behind to keep watch was Luther. Old Luther went nuts just sitting home waiting for nothing. He gets the remaining Dark Angels to turn against Lion on the ideas that they were shamed, unwanted by the emperor and jelous of the others that were chosen to go to war. 

El' Jonson returns and is greeted by defence lasers destroying the fleet. Lion retreats and eventually learns that it's Luther that has turned. Lion then assulted the fortress were Luther was and fought. Yada-yada-yada the planet is destroyed and as Luther goes to deliver the final killing stroke he see's his betrayal and cannot kill Lion. 

The "Fallen" were then scattered through time and space by the winds of chaos and the remains of the planet was sucked into the warp. 

Cypher carries a sword that is never used or unsheathed and could be the sword of Lion El' Jonson. It is said that Cypher is the last hope of redemption for the fallen. It is thought that his sightings make a path towards earth.

Some "fallen" turned to chaos, some pirates or mercenaries and others just became regular humans and returned to society. 

"Fallen Angels" can be led, or rather "drawn or attracted" to Cypher to fight along side him. 

Cypher and the Fallen Angels are hunted by the Dark Angels. Special rules are given if the two ever fight. 

Lot's of special rules applied to Cypher and the Fallen Angels. 

Oh, and to answer your question, I believe he is not evil by nature, just actions. He is protected, (granted safety by an "unknown" god. The emperor himself maybe?) and is trying to get to Earth to clear his name and the names of his brethren. Who knows really, but makes for a good plot that was never followed up on. I personally would like to see a book about this subject, might be a good read.


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## BrotherNuprin (Oct 13, 2008)

Here's a question, off the topic of Cypher for a sec. Back in 3rd Ed of Dark Angels, the fluff mentions Luther was kept alive, imprisoned and interrogated by the Chapter deep within its fortress. Has that changed in the new books (I haven't read any of the novels)?


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## NoiseMarine (Jun 8, 2008)

BrotherNuprin said:


> Here's a question, off the topic of Cypher for a sec. Back in 3rd Ed of Dark Angels, the fluff mentions Luther was kept alive, imprisoned and interrogated by the Chapter deep within its fortress. Has that changed in the new books (I haven't read any of the novels)?


No it has not changed all that much, except that Luther is not being interrogated he is being watched over by the _watchers_ deep within the Rock, along with the Lion.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

I know the Lion is held deep within the rock being watched over by the watchers in the dark, but i thought that Luther was held in a dungeon nd interrogated by every new chapter master but he never breaks to them only tells them that the Lion will return and forgive him.


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## widowmaker47 (Sep 22, 2008)

if u read angels of darkness it says that luther (quote)"he is ours, held in the deepest cell of this rock. As his cries for forgiveness echo in your ears, you will learn to beg for mercy as well"
Angels Of Darkness, Gav Thorpe


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## Ezekiface 73 (Oct 22, 2008)

I found this site with old rules for Chaos People, and it has cypher in it.

Here's the link
http://hjem.get2net.dk/Warhammer_40000/Chaos13.htm


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## CommanderAnthor (Sep 28, 2008)

Guys I hope everyone has read the rules, that stats etc of charachters can't be posted.

That's why there is codices lol


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## Ezekiface 73 (Oct 22, 2008)

Does that mean i cant post the link? If so, tell me and I'll edit it.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

from what ive read cypher is neutral...ish. whenever he shows up chaos ensues, however once the imperium cleans the chaos it is better than it was before, so he is kinda good. 

luther is in the rock, blah blah blah, as everyone else has said. however when he speaks to the new interrogator basically he says that the lion will wake up & forgive him and that that time is coming soon...

these could no longer be cannon but its the last that ive read about them


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## Lord Lucius (Sep 18, 2008)

CommanderAnthor said:


> Guys I hope everyone has read the rules, that stats etc of charachters can't be posted.
> 
> That's why there is codices lol


yea but cypher isnt in any codex
if GW wanted to keep him they would have
ill ask a modk:


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

One thing we havent thought of, everybody thinks he's a DA (not thinking of chaos or imperium right now) but what if he wasnt a DA, it could be a inquisitor who found a blade, OR! it might be a rival space wolf who stole the blade, its possible.

Just let the space wolf have a shave and haircut.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

Ferrus Manus said:


> One thing we havent thought of, everybody thinks he's a DA (not thinking of chaos or imperium right now) but what if he wasnt a DA, it could be a inquisitor who found a blade, OR! it might be a rival space wolf who stole the blade, its possible.
> 
> Just let the space wolf have a shave and haircut.


um...if i were you id be running before a DA or SW comes by and tries to attack you.

i mean any DA would be enraged at being insulted if Cypher wasnt a DA...waste of time *hides*

and i dont think that a SW would let themselves be clean shaven...too much pride in being a SW

but anyways its a legitimate point...what if its a word bearer? or hell (either choice is hypothetically impossible) Russ or *insert 'lost' primarch here*


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## Ferrus Manus (Apr 28, 2008)

i know its a dum idea but possible.


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## DarkBadger (Jun 4, 2008)

Maybe Lion was partly traitor but felt some guilt and Lion Blade is a daemon weapon, cypher is taking it to emperor to prove innocence of fallen and guilt of El'Johnson. Luther maybe just couldn't go though with killing the lion and cypher is seeking Lions redemption also in eyes of emperor.

Just a new theory.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think from reading all these posts that it can be understood that there is more to cypher than meets the eye. So at least to me, the real question is why did the Dark Angels left in Caliban turn to "chaos" if indeed it was chaos that turned them against there brothers. One thing that I have come to learn was that there is more to the Lion than people really understand. Chaplain Boread of the Dark Angels finds out from his discussion with Fallen Angel Astelan that the real reason why the Dark Angels primarch Lion El' Johnson was "delayed" was because he was infact "he was waiting to see which side won..." 
It makes sense. According to the book Angels of Darkness the The great Lion never lost a battle. And for the Great Lion to have been delayed by "facing to many battles." He was pretty smart. Infact the chaplain (keep in mind hes a interragator chaplain so he is well kept in faith for the emperor and the chapter. Learns the truth and leaves his Rosarious behind in the abandoned space station after the quick battle. Its a sign that he doesn't believe in the Dark Angels any longer.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Indeed. It's the great shame of the Dark Angels, that while hidden to many Gamers (rather than those who have delved into the rich background) that it is obvious that the Hunt for the fallen, is really the Fallen hunting the Loyal.

Because those who were Dark Angels recruited from Caliban (other than Luther) were with the Lion, they believed him to be the loyal one. So hidden in the holds of the ships they didn't know the truth of when they were fired upon from Caliban.

Those on Caliban had heard the stories of the Heresy, and that several Chapters had turned Heretical. When the Dark Angels Returned, they were fired upon (I can't remember why, I think it was Radio Silence), by the still loyal Terran recruited Dark Angels (who Luther still didn't trust as much as those Homegrown).

Maybe the Chaos Gods realised that although Lion wouldn't change, his immediate subordinate, and greatest warrior of the Chapter would be the next biggest, and after the seeds of heresy were planted (by Luthers own choice, but unknowingly) during the Bombardment of the Ships in Orbit, the Chaos Gods realised he was an easy target.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I read on a little and I learned that Lion El' Johnson was infact a parnoid primarch. Its seems that after the Lion had been discovered the da's primarch created legions for every older chapters. It seemed that he wanted to get rid of his older chapters (ones mostly raised up by the emperor). The first signs of this were when he secretly sent different parts of his legions to different galaxies. He tried to get the older legions to accidentally blow each other up. But it didn't work. In fact according to Fallen Angel Astelan the fleet was infact the first to open fire on the planet. Chaplain Boreas seemed to already know that, but instead of saying that didn't happen he instead asks why they returned fire. Like really.

From the sound of things El' johnson sounds like a real ass in the book. Like instead of protecting a city with millions of people, his plan is to use the city as bait let them sack and then blow them up???? Like seriously what a doushe.
After reading that book it seems as though the Lion was infact a vessel acting for his own instead of doing it for the emperor and humanity.


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## Death Shroud (Mar 1, 2008)

*The Starchild*



jesse said:


> whats the star child? or whatever its called?


The Starchild was background from the "Realm of Chaos: The lost and the damned" book. It is, in my opinion, the single greatest piece of background in 40k.... Here goes....

Every living thing has a presence in the warp, a "shadow self" or "soul". The early humans evolved with a strong link to the warp, in some the link was so strong that they could use this link to see into the future or perform "Magic". These people were the seers, shaman and witch doctors of the human race.

The shaman taught and advised the others benefitting human society. Part of the shaman's wisdom came from their ability to reincarnate, when they died their soul travelled the warp until it was born into a new body.

As time passed and humanity strayed further and further from the natural world they became less pure, their souls began to be affected by their basic emotions, Anger, Hope, Despair and Desire.

These emotions began to form whirlpools of energy tuned to specific emotions, one day these pools would grow in power and gain sentience and become the first chaos gods but for now they still had a terrible effect on the natural flow of the warp.

The shaman began to be affected by the disturbances in the warp, using their powers became more and more difficult and less shaman were being reborn into each generation. 

All of the Shaman on Earth gathered in one place to discuss what could be done to save their knowledge and protect the human race. After hundreds of years of debate a solution was found, they would commit suicide to a man and their soul would be united in one immortal being the "New Man".

The Shaman took poison by the thousands, the Shaman wiped themselves out... within a year the Emperor was born the place was Central Anatolia (modern Turkey) the time period was the 8th Millenium BC.

The Emperor travelled the world, hiding his amazing power and helping humanity and intervening where needed to steer humanity along a path preparing them for itheir eventual evolution into a true Psychic race. He fathered children, most of his decendants have no idea of their heritage but a few "sensei" manifest a tiny spark of his power.

One by one the Chaos Gods reached sentience, first Khorne then Tzeentch then Nurgle. These three had all gained sentience by the end of the middle ages. Slaanesh would be born much later, it's birth tied more to the emotions of the decadent Eldar rather than humanity........

Fast Forward through the Dark Age of Technology, wars of unification and Great Crusade.......


At the end of the Horus Heresy the Emperor's wrecked, near death body was interred in the golden throne, for a while the Emperor could communicate by speech and gave instructions to his closest confidantes, his still sentient soul had enough connection with the cells of his physical form to give these commands, as the link faded over time, the Emperor became silent.....

The Emperor's potent soul melted into the flow of the warp, as much as the Chaos gods searched for it even they could not find it amongst the seas of the Empyrean. It is thought that the Emperor's soul may one day be reborn like the Shaman of old Earth, at a time when human races' cries for a saviour will be answered. In the meantime the soul is like an unborn child, a Starchild.

The only people aware of the Starchild are the illuminati, a secret society comprised of those who have forced daemonic possession out of themselves. They plot and prepare behind the scenes preparing humanity for his return.


....Hope this is informative to many.


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## Death Shroud (Mar 1, 2008)

On the subject of Cypher, his long talked about habit of being whisked away by the chaos gods it more likely to be Zaraphiels ability to pass through solid objects, as seen in "Descent of Angels". Zarahiel also gets a anitique drum-fed pistol which fits the description of the one Cypher uses.

Looking forward to "Fallen Angels", it has a better writer.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Agreed with Death Shroud. Though I'm glad they didn't tell the whole story about the dark angels during the heresy i still couldn't help but feel disapointed. Definitley feeling the other book being good. How could it not.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

Cypher is a mystery as his actions continue to raise the question; is he good or bad. I don't think it will ever be solved until GW writes his fluff but i can't sit around and listen when people say the current DA are really the fallen. If they had fallen i'm sure they would not fight for in the Emperors name, they would not fight for humanity...they would have already gone to Terra in the guise of the loyal and sacked the place. I don't, won't and can't believe that the cuurent DA are anything less than loyal...secretive, paranoid and selfish maybe but not unloyal.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Angel of Retribution said:


> Cypher is a mystery as his actions continue to raise the question; is he good or bad. I don't think it will ever be solved until GW writes his fluff but i can't sit around and listen when people say the current DA are really the fallen. If they had fallen i'm sure they would not fight for in the Emperors name, they would not fight for humanity...they would have already gone to Terra in the guise of the loyal and sacked the place. I don't, won't and can't believe that the cuurent DA are anything less than loyal...secretive, paranoid and selfish maybe but not unloyal.


Isn't that was Cyphers doing though, hes trying to bring the sword as something to back him up when he gets there? I mean you can't really go to Terra and be like yah... the dark angels are bad... we are not. Look what happened the 60 death gaurd going to terra to warn the emperor. They almost got obliterated to an oblivion thats assuming they are now in a secret force like the daemon hunters and were not actually killed.


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## Death Shroud (Mar 1, 2008)

I think what's fascinating about the Dark Angels and the concept of the Fallen is that in many ways the Dark Angels are becoming "Fallen" because they are trying to hide the fact thet the fallen angels exist.

The Dark Angels defeated those who turned to chaos and are trying to destroy any trace of their dishonour by their hunt for the fallen. In doing so they have, themselves, fallen from grace due to their obsession and are becoming what they profess to hate and seek to destroy. They have turned away from helping people to seek fallen Dark Angels and have committed acts as heinous as attacking and destroying other "loyalist" marines to cover their tracks (see Black Templars).

When the Lion wakes up he's going to be really pissed off at what his warriors have become.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

And plus only very few of the current da's know whats actually going on. And though you said they do fight for the emperor, their main priority if any if soley on the fallen and not any other crusade that would be more beneficial to the empyream. And remember when im really talking about the Primarch. Every fact that i stated was infact true. Its in the book I was talking about. The primarch really wasn't concerned about the emperor's will more than he was himself. I don't consider that a chaos thing. He's just a selfish primarch.


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## HIz (Jan 31, 2009)

quick side note has any one heard the little bit of fluff saying that "the voice" can aparently control swarms of tyranid, kind of like point their attacks? I think it was in the newest nid codex or a WD. Pointing this out cause apparently there is alot linking the "traitor" the voice to cypher. I have his model i might paint it just cause now im into him again lol. For awhile i was using his rules from the 2nd edition csm book in 3rd edition at my hobby shop (with my oppents premission of course) with a squad of fallen.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

HIz said:


> quick side note has any one heard the little bit of fluff saying that "the voice" can aparently control swarms of tyranid, kind of like point their attacks? I think it was in the newest nid codex or a WD. Pointing this out cause apparently there is alot linking the "traitor" the voice to cypher. I have his model i might paint it just cause now im into him again lol. For awhile i was using his rules from the 2nd edition csm book in 3rd edition at my hobby shop (with my oppents premission of course) with a squad of fallen.


That would be neat. If Cypher ever needed help all hed have to do is whisper
"Hey tyranids..... kind of need some help right now.... I've got candy..."


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## inqusitor_me (Jan 27, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> I read on a little and I learned that Lion El' Johnson was infact a parnoid primarch. Its seems that after the Lion had been discovered the da's primarch created legions for every older chapters. It seemed that he wanted to get rid of his older chapters (ones mostly raised up by the emperor). The first signs of this were when he secretly sent different parts of his legions to different galaxies. He tried to get the older legions to accidentally blow each other up. But it didn't work. In fact according to Fallen Angel Astelan the fleet was infact the first to open fire on the planet. Chaplain Boreas seemed to already know that, but instead of saying that didn't happen he instead asks why they returned fire. Like really.
> 
> From the sound of things El' johnson sounds like a real ass in the book. Like instead of protecting a city with millions of people, his plan is to use the city as bait let them sack and then blow them up???? Like seriously what a doushe.
> After reading that book it seems as though the Lion was infact a vessel acting for his own instead of doing it for the emperor and humanity.



Dude where the hell you read that cuz i never heard of that book befor and to the last bit the whole world had became traitor so blowing the planit up was a good thing . 
who say that cypher is one man if you read the DA dex it tells you that the name cypher is a rank not his name...
and any way it all on how you see things cypher in my view is the only thing thats keeping the DA becoming fulley fallen


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## wdwc (Jan 31, 2009)

I don't know if this has been said yet, but cypher does not have a c'tan phase sword. He lost it when he tried to stab I believe it was the deceiver. Got my fluff from the last rules written for him in a white dwarf.


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## HIz (Jan 31, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> That would be neat. If Cypher ever needed help all hed have to do is whisper
> "Hey tyranids..... kind of need some help right now.... I've got candy..."


well its not like that. he like homes them in, but they would still attack him and any of his allys. The Voice apparently found a way into the hivemind and he made beacons that attrack them. i forget which world, but one was over taken and they believe they found a homing beacon that caused them to come to it and i forget the reasoning, but it was voice related.


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## Fangio (Nov 23, 2008)

inqusitor_me said:


> Dude where the hell you read that cuz i never heard of that book befor and to the last bit the whole world had became traitor so blowing the planit up was a good thing .
> who say that cypher is one man if you read the DA dex it tells you that the name cypher is a rank not his name...
> and any way it all on how you see things cypher in my view is the only thing thats keeping the DA becoming fulley fallen


That book is called "Angels of Darkness" by Gav Thorpe and I love it (as DA man) but I think is currently out of stock or discontinued in general. I read my copy at my local library!


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

inqusitor_me said:


> Dude where the hell you read that cuz i never heard of that book befor and to the last bit the whole world had became traitor so blowing the planit up was a good thing .
> who say that cypher is one man if you read the DA dex it tells you that the name cypher is a rank not his name...
> and any way it all on how you see things cypher in my view is the only thing thats keeping the DA becoming fulley fallen


Oh man you make me feel like i made that up. I'm not. its a real book. lol. If you like the dark angels your probably heart broken. I kind of was. But its a real book. You might be able to get it on ebay maybe even a local book store still. Besides if you read the codexs. i mean i collect them for all the cool stories and stuff, you have to understand that codexs have a history thats based on the chapters/armies view points. It might be true but to an certain extent.:biggrin:


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

in clarifieing the reason why the world of Caliban was blown up was due to the parnoidness of Leon El' Johnson in the emperor. Due to the fact that The Lion put all those people on the planet because they were of the "old chapter," or better yet said the marines that were built, trained, and led by the emperor. After the emperor left to do his own thing, the Great Lion massivley went out in search of creating new marines. He made sure that for every "old chapter" there was five more. After his new army was created he tried getting rid of the "old chapter."


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## Kendares (Sep 9, 2008)

wow the lion does sound like an ass <:{ why was he so paranoid?


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## inqusitor_me (Jan 27, 2008)

well in the new fuff iv read it was mostly the elders of the chaptor form what ever order the lion set up back in the day and his best mate didnt like the fact the lion was in charge


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Ckcrawford, remember that the Chapter is Legion, in this Context 

There were 20 Legions, 2 were lost, 9 turned traitor, 8 stayed loyal, 1 edged their bets on who would win.

I don't know where you found out how he intended to create more Chapters, but from what existing canon (rather than fluff, which is what the Horus Heresy Series are, all in all) states, but Lion El'Johnson didn't trust those who were loyal to the Emperor over him (in the sense that they were the Terran Marines, over the Caliban Marines).

Horus, Russ and Guilliman were the best of the Primarchs, in that they broke down the Tribal or World Ties, by mixing them.

But those Terran Marines from the Dark Angels were ridiculed by the Inner Circle Knights of Caliban, and were often sent to do the Mundane Jobs (such as Guarding Caliban, or patrolling outposts), while the Glorious and Hard one victories were those of the Caliban Angels. He wasn't paranoid, but rather distrustful.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

The Lion grew up alone in a dark forest surrounded by chaos infected beasts with no human contact for so long, and when it happened all but one wanted to kill him. I'd say he has the right to be cautious and even a little paranoid. I mean after living in the forests for so long when he actually got sleep inside the fortress do you think his dreams were of pleasant fields and fluffy sheep or dark, dank forests filled with beasts of death. As proven with the other primarchs; their worlds and childhoods seriously affected their psyche. But no-one is jumping on Angron's case or Konrad Kurzes case. 

And as for the book which calls the Lion a traitor, wasn't it narrated by one of the Fallen and so must be taken with a grain of salt.

And everybody is saying that the Lion sat on the fence. I don't think so...Terra is under seige by a mass of formally loyal legions you can't just waltz in their to help out, even if you surprised them from the rear...not all of chaos were attacking the palace, some were exterminating the populace and others guarding certain valuable areas so to land unprepared would mean certain defeat. You'd have to thouroughly plan it out, have enough troops to take and hold key areas and look for any and all potential weaknesses in the enemy. It would also be handy to have backup like the Ultramarines and the Space Wolves. And all three of theose chapters (UM, SW and DA) didn't arrive until Horus had been killed and the chaos legions broken. I dont get how everyone is always on his case when it would be strategically and tactically stupid to jump right into the fray without thinking. If he had he probably would be dead and the DA seriously crippled (maybe beyond repair).

And what if chaos would've won before the Loyalists reached Terra, what then...a few loyalist legions against a horde of chaos. Maybe he was waiting to see his options; if Imperium won, clean up time. If chaos won it would be guerrila warfare, hit and run and staying on the move. There was a lot going on then and we all have only gotten a small glimpse through a dirty window. We don't know the majority of what was going on and no-one knows what any primarch was thinking during that time. 

And even though the DA search for the fallen above all else (although i bet there is exceptions to that rule) If it were to come out that Fallen Dark Angels were roaming the galaxy, the DA would be disbanded by the Inquisition and maybe even a very hostile take over. The Warhammer universe is a dark, forboding place, a little secrecy and paranoia should be the norm.

And as for Cypher i can't yet read his motives; he appears with chaos (bad). Draws the DA who help (good) and the Imperium is better than before (good). And as for his purpose, only he and GW know that...


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

I think you can just walk up there, relieve pressure from the 3 Chapters on Terra at the Time (White Scars, Blood Angels, and, of course, the Imperial Fists), against 6 Legions of Traitors, and Half the Mechanicus from Mars.

If you were a follower of the Emperor, you did the right thing, and protected him, not sitting with a Flower pulling petals off, going "Do I, Don't I?". These are Great Tacticians, these Primarchs? Inaction is worse than a Bad Action, as everyone knows.

No, he knew full well what he was doing. Why else feel shame? They believe they are Loyalists, but the 'Fallen' they are hunting believe they are Loyalists, and only their Primarch and the Fallen knew the truth - which is why they hunt the Fallen, on the edicts of the Chapter Master, each one instructed by the other Grand Masters to hunt them down. Apparently, they are told why, but I doubt that, for some reason.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

Relieving pressure by having yourselves destroyed is stupidity at its best (they would be greatly needed to clean up afterwards as we all know--take Rogal Dorns actions in the Iron Cage...out of action for 20 years. What a blow to the Imperium at that time). And bad action can be worse than no action cos you can make the situation worse or spiral out of control!...and heres a point didnt the UM, SW and Da arrive at roughly the same time...does that mean the UM and SW were also sitting on the fence pulling petals of daisies?

And the Lion could feel shame for a number of reasons. He could feel guilt over not noticing Horus' and the others betrayal, being on the other edge of the galaxy when Terra was attacked or the fact that his Legion were the Emperors bodyguard at one time and this might not have happened if they still were...just cos he feels guilt or shame doesn't make him a traitor, i'll bet the other primarchs felt guilt and shame too. 


Oh and even if the Lion was miraculously proven as fallen, the new line of DA are raised without a primarch and so are raised loyal to the Emperor and Imperium so the DA will always be loyal.
The DA still fight for the Imperium...certain undeniable proof that they are loyal. Prove otherwise (not heresay or opinions or guesses or circumstantial evidence, but undeniable proof that they are fallen and pawns of chaos!)


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## inqusitor_me (Jan 27, 2008)

errr hate to but in but the reson the Big L was late was due to the (DW,SW) where fighting a few traitor gurd on a plant thay pulled out of that warzone asap the lien whent to russ ...... look mate gona get the rest of my leigen meet u at terra(mabe sumthing differnt)
but hence he was late so if even the DA got to terra wouldent make any diffrance becouse the emp still would of whent up to the warmaster and said hay you jimmy come here (agien might be the words he used posibly not) 
and nothing would of changed


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Vaz said:


> Ckcrawford, remember that the Chapter is Legion, in this Context
> 
> There were 20 Legions, 2 were lost, 9 turned traitor, 8 stayed loyal, 1 edged their bets on who would win.
> 
> ...


Aparently they still have refrence of chapters back then. When i mention chapters i mean that of their own legion. The legions back then actually had a way of having dividing the leadership by creating chapters. They were still part of the legion no mind you. And keep in mind this is before the heresy. Its a different interpretation. They obviously were also called dark angels and had the old black color.

"Their primarchs and their legions became as one. Their gene seed was used directly to raise new chapters for the legion." -(Gav Thorpe pg. 234)

"Each of the old chapters, those founded before the rediscovery of caliban, had a shadow, a new chaper, founded on Caliban with Lion El' Johnson Geneseed."(Gav Thorpe pg. 242)


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Angel of Retribution said:


> The Lion grew up alone in a dark forest surrounded by chaos infected beasts with no human contact for so long, and when it happened all but one wanted to kill him. I'd say he has the right to be cautious and even a little paranoid. I mean after living in the forests for so long when he actually got sleep inside the fortress do you think his dreams were of pleasant fields and fluffy sheep or dark, dank forests filled with beasts of death. As proven with the other primarchs; their worlds and childhoods seriously affected their psyche. But no-one is jumping on Angron's case or Konrad Kurzes case.
> 
> And as for the book which calls the Lion a traitor, wasn't it narrated by one of the Fallen and so must be taken with a grain of salt.
> 
> ...


That might all be so. But you have to remember. Smart isn't always better. Maybe they were doing the smart thing. But they also risked the destruction of Terra "The Cradle of Humanity" along with the death of the Emperor. Kind of shady if you ask me. Since when does he care about the other planets by the way you know. That one incident is just an example of what he is. He doesn't really care of the conquests of the Empyream. The DA's never use that defense by the way "that we were weakened." Another thing to keep in mind.

As far as the book goes, its not narrated by the fallen. Its more of a story between two of the characters. Though it mentions the fallens past life it actually more about the interragator chaplain who falls into despair after learning the truths of the chapter. Which actually is more than just the information of the fallen, but his search for cypher.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

Angel of Retribution said:


> And as for the book which calls the Lion a traitor, wasn't it narrated by one of the Fallen and so must be taken with a grain of salt.


Remember though, the version told by the Dark Angels is only from their point of view, so it goes without saying that the grain of salt you take for the fallen point of view is the same that should be taken for the non fallen one.


ckcrawford, the chapters referenced in Angels of Darkness are the equivalents of legion version companies. (Like that of the Iron Warrior grand companies or the Iron Hand clan companies. Its just the name that particular legion used.)

And do remember, we have an edit button; you don't have to keep doubleposting to answer the posts and questions of others.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Angel of Retribution said:


> Relieving pressure by having yourselves destroyed is stupidity at its best (they would be greatly needed to clean up afterwards as we all know--take Rogal Dorns actions in the Iron Cage...out of action for 20 years. What a blow to the Imperium at that time). And bad action can be worse than no action cos you can make the situation worse or spiral out of control!...and heres a point didnt the UM, SW and Da arrive at roughly the same time...does that mean the UM and SW were also sitting on the fence pulling petals of daisies?


Firstly again. The Great Lion is really smart. There was no trap for him on Terra. He would have sat on the defences of Terra and just sat their shooting the shiat out of the World Eaters what they are good at doing. He would have not been stupid and got anhilated as you said. He had every advantage a army like his was built for. He was on the defense, on the wall. Using distance as their ultimate ally! So there obviously was no problem with him going to Terra to help his fellow astartas. You have to understand what they were fighting for also. Terra and the emperor. So like really just sit there and think about your plan? :nono:

If you think about it, the only reason they really are part of the emperors army is the simple fact that they never joined chaos.


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## darkreever (Apr 3, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> So there obviously was no problem with him going to Terra to help his fellow astartas. You have to understand what they were fighting for also.


I don't know crawford, I'd be willing to bet that those 6-9 enemy legions fighting to kill all those loyal to the Emperor might pose a problem for one legion trying to help out the besieged three.

One fleet against six or more is never good odds, no matter who you are.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

When i say no problem, i mean that there was no real "surprise force" waiting on Terra for the Dark Angels. One might argue, that yah there was more to the campaign in getting rid of Chaos than Terra and the emperor. The only problem with that argument is how close the emperor's side actually came to losing that battle. I mean damn close! In fact, if Horus hadn't lifted his shields than I would even becareful to saying the word "close," the emperor, and terra are what the heart of the empyream. Without them, the empyream isn't very much of anything. Lion El' Johnson being as smart as he is... there are really two sides to this. A) he was smart, he knew that due to all the forces chaos had the Emperor would lose or B) He thought there were other concerns other than the safety and heart of the Empyream
You might say B is a little close minded but i just dont see how the smartest primarch could not see how close to that battle was an not intervene in really THE MOST IMPORTANT BATTLE FOR MANKIND in the cradle and heart of humanity


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

someone said a while back something about how the Smurfs and SWs were really far away from terra...i believe that they were ordered by horus to be that far away - they thought he was loyal still (or were unawares of what was going on)...but i have NO IDEA where the DA were sent off to...and if they were to pick up some buddies from caliban, ya think they could of just sent an email(or equivalent) to them saying "hey...were gonna help the emp by kicking horus' ass...meet us at terra at *said time*...go DA!" 

also it was only the BA, IF(minus 6 companies on mars) the custodians, and 3million (or billion i forget which) guard INSIDE the palace, the WS were off doing their hit & run stuff and liberated at least 1 spaceport...for awhile. and they were ignored for the rest of the time cuz GW left out fluff for 'em.

anyways on lion wanting to eliminate the terran DA, i havent read the book just going off of what has been said here, why would he leave his most trusted friend, ect, back home? is stead of the older da ?

but who is cypher? that Z....something guy who can see through walls? or just some DA who happened to hold that title at the time? and where was he when the sh*t hit the fan (on caliban or with the Lion)?...i dont think that anyone has thought about that.

who would be scared sh*tless if cypher was with the lion i mean that would mess up everybody fallen/nonfallen DA's line of thought?

my brain hurts from thinking so deeply.


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## Fumble Tumble (Oct 3, 2008)

lino el jonson is dissapeared into some random place that only the hubijublas know about, cypher is a random guyfrom the old traditions to uphold the traditions of the dark angels (except nobody knows what he upholds now there are only rumours, and Luther is in the middle of THE ROCK!!! and only the chapter master and The watchers in the dark know about luther being there


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Actually someone said something about them thinking its Zahar.... something from the novel Descent of Angels. I could actually see that. Figuring the fact that it seems like he kind of become Luther's right hang man right after he got saved from the engine room exploding.


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## spike12225 (Aug 21, 2008)

the dark angels secret is there the traitors hunting (the fallen) marines as they know the truth they (the fallen) were the ones who wanted to help while the rest sat on the fence so to speak anything in the codex is false. 
Its in the stories where the truth comes out cypher is probably chaos's greatest threat as if he was interrogated by loyalists they'd learn the truth about the DA and there secret losing there link to the imperium through a (supposedly) loyal chapter.

thats why DA'S kill the fallen when they fight against them.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

C!!!! Thats what I'm talken about! God damn! "Finnally another real man." jk. But it would make sense. But you see i actually don't think the Dark Angels are "Chaos" I just think they are selfish bastards on there own agenda. In boot camp the Drill Instructor would go "You are on your fucken program arn't DA!!! We do what WE want to do don't we!!!" Anyway kudoo's to the post before me.


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

spike12225 said:


> the dark angels secret is there the traitors hunting (the fallen) marines as they know the truth they (the fallen) were the ones who wanted to help while the rest sat on the fence so to speak anything in the codex is false.


 Codex = Canon. That includes the description of Luther's betrayal. 

The only opposing account was told by a Fallen, not an omniscient narrator.


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## Angel of Retribution (Jul 10, 2008)

spike12225 said:


> the dark angels secret is there the traitors hunting (the fallen) marines as they know the truth they (the fallen) were the ones who wanted to help while the rest sat on the fence so to speak anything in the codex is false.
> Its in the stories where the truth comes out cypher is probably chaos's greatest threat as if he was interrogated by loyalists they'd learn the truth about the DA and there secret losing there link to the imperium through a (supposedly) loyal chapter.
> 
> thats why DA'S kill the fallen when they fight against them.



Firstly the codex cannot be wrong. If one codex is false they are all false. If the codexes are false then there is no truth whatsoever...

Secondly the DA were far from Terra fighting on the shield worlds when Horus beseiged the palace. Also the Night Lords were told to intercept the DA, but they made it through anyway. And since he was attacked by a brothers legion he probably wanted to know the intentions of the other legions (especially the UM and SW who were also on route to Terra) that would cause a little delay, but they still made it.

Thirdly The fight between the fallen DA and the loyalist DA didn't take place until after the seige of Terra and the defeat of Horus and the Lion was attacked because the DA on Caliban had been swayed (or tricked) by the new chaos champion (aka Luther).

Fourthly if the Lion and the DA had truelly sat on the fence waiting the outcome then i'm sure one of the other primarchs or legions would have something to say about it and im sure they would have turned against the DA, which they haven't so i think it's safe to say whatever the Lion was doing that slowed the DA down, it was not sitting on the fence.

Oh and when the DA fight the Fallen, they do not kill them outright, they capture them to make them repent...and then kill them!


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

"Firstly the codex cannot be wrong. If one codex is false they are all false. If the codexes are false then there is no truth whatsoever..."
Not necesarly its more proactive to know the dark angel's codex is basically a lie. YOu know the most secretive chapter. Obviously that makes them more interesting

"Oh and when the DA fight the Fallen, they do not kill them outright, they capture them to make them repent...and then kill them!"
Actually not necesarly either. They put Fallen Dark Angel's Astellan the character I was talking about under the rock! Without redeeming himself and they didn't even kill him! Think about that for a second!


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## Fangio (Nov 23, 2008)

*My two centimes*

It is important to note that in one of the older codexes (Angel of Death, I think. Mind you it could have been a book) they say that not all the fallen are chaos. They have simply simply fallen from the DA's graces. Some do turn to chaos, some remain loyal and try to fight in secret and others turn renegade (but not traitor) and try to create Imperial free worlds as they feel it the best thing to do, which is what Astellan (I think that's the name of the guy in Angels of Darkness) did.

What really happened on Caliban to make the remaining chapter there want to open fire on the fleet is unknown. It is said that Luther turned to Chaos. My guess here is that his jealousy allowed the sweet seductive tones of a daemon to possess him. The fact that he doesn't kill the Lion even though he is suddenly as strong as he is and he repents makes me think this. I use the fact that Horus did the same to the Emperor and we know he was possessed and the same thing happened to Fulgrim and Manus 
"Potential Spoiler"(except that in the latter he kind of killed him then repented and finally got tricked one last time by the daemon)

As for stalling I do believe he wasn't sitting on the fence as such but more never needed to show his colours. The Night Lords attacked him for sure but it has been written that Horus was worried as he wasn't sure if the Lion was going to help him or attack him when he reached Terra. We never find out which side he chooses but seeing that he was as paranoid as Stalin it is very possible that he would placed his flag next to whoever had won. DA in present time 40k are definitely not Traitor but it can be argued that their allegiance is not to the Throne either. They work for themselves. They will sometimes join a fight a full chapter strength, ignore all requests for assistance, hit the spot they want, take the enemy leader and disappear again. They care not for what happens to the rest of the troops on the planet, subsector or galaxy for that matter. It is even possible that if they had managed to catch the "voice" during the 13th Crusade they would have buggered off soon after. More proof of their lack of allegiance is the report that they once opened fire on a Black Templar (i think) vessel to get their hands on what must have been a fallen. No one survived so these reports cannot be confirmed and I'd love to see the Inquisition try to investigate them.

Cypher's role in all this is unknown. If "Angels of Darkness" is to taken as gospel, he is not only trying to reach Terra but he is also testing the DA's humanity. I won't say how as that would ruin the book for those who wish to read it. My guess is that he is the main character in Descent of Angels who doesn't seem to be too impressed with the Lion anyway. I'm very intrigued to see how they handle the second part of that story when it is published in July.

I think the real question here is: Seeing that no one outside of the DA inner circle knows what happened at Caliban. How the hell did they explain it disappearing and then having this crazy big rock floating about with them?


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## inqusitor_me (Jan 27, 2008)

there are a few fallen mostly the heads of the companies left be hind thay will keep alive for only the lion and the emp can forgive them


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Okay... really. He said he had nothing that he wanted forgivness for. He is not going to get redeemed. ever. Especially if the fallen thinks the primarch is a piece of shit, and knows of his flaws. He is not going to go and be like "im sorry i fought for the emperor and not for the chapter." Most people go like "well its told by Astellan's perspective." Most of the FACTS he states are ussually not denied by the interagotor chaplain. The only defense the chaplain really puts is that Astellan was wrong and he should have let himself die. And if Astellan is really a lieing scumbag piece of #$% as some of the Dark Angels players think he is. Why the heck would they keep him alive under the rock. If hes lieing he is obviously an agent of chaos "and must be purged" of his sins. Yah lets just put him under the rock with a few of the other "chaos" traitors. ITs not like they can summon some daemon or something, and just compleltly destroy the rock.


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

Fangio said:


> What really happened on Caliban to make the remaining chapter there want to open fire on the fleet is unknown. It is said that Luther turned to Chaos.


It's not unknown if it's described in the codices.


ckcrawford said:


> Most people go like "well its told by Astellan's perspective." Most of the FACTS he states are ussually not denied by the interagotor chaplain.


Astellan's story is directly contradicted by canon fluff. There is nothing that proves that anything he stated was a "fact".


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I said that the facts that are stated by Astellan. He presents them as facts.

And as I mentioned before. You are wrong when you say nothing protects those facts. As i mentioned previously, the Interagator Chaplain does not deny that the fleet were the first to open fire, or any of the other information. What he does do is simply try to trick what he says as though what he did was of his selfish acts. That in itself is VERY WEIRD. Considering the fact that the Chaplain was designed to torture and prove that hes right and the fallen is wrong.

Brief Description

Astellan: I brought the Imperial truth to the planet I had created.
Boreas: So you tried to inslave the population?

or

Astellan: When the fleet returning open fired we just fired back
Boread: (no denial) you should have let the fleet just blow you up to prove you wern't a threat.

just a few crap pullings of the interagation. It shows that they believe him, its just that they want him to see the wrong. Or else they would have totured him to see the truth that some of you believe. That the Fallen are chaos they started firing on the fleet. blah blah blah. They werent doing that


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

It doesn't matter what any of the Fallen or the Dark Angels believe. 

What actually happened back then has already been described in the codex.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

again with the codex... 
:cray:


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## BlackApostleVilhelm (May 14, 2008)

the codex retort is getting old people. yes the codex's were written as cannon and fluff BUT they were written from that army's perspective. if you read the chaos marines codex it states a lot of what happened to them and how they got the way they are, FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE, so when people use this codex excuse they must realize that if they were to look from the outside in that it was written purposefully from the Dark Angels' perspective. the new HH books and other stories of the fallen written by people who are employed by GW leave the PRE-HERESY dark angels' allegiances foggy for a reason. 

obviously the chapter now is loyal, no shit. the whole argument and reason that this story of the lion being a selfish bastard is to put into question were they loyal when the heresy erupted? yes maybe luther was possessed but so was fulgrim and he thought he was doing the right thing. or maybe luther wasnt possessed, the only account of that story is the one from cypher's eyes, at least the ones ive heard. in my opinion the lion would have sided with whoever won the heresy, so when he went back home to resupply the loyalists, who had been cheated by the lion, fired on them thinking they were chaos. maybe the daemon who possessed luther led him to believe the lion HAD sided with horus SO when the fleet arrived the loyalists who were blinded fired on the fleet. WE DONT KNOW FOR SURE and that is the way it is going to be until the new book comes out. either way, either situation, the dark angels have a reason to hide the incident, whether it was some of their chapter turned, or the fact that they were on the fence. i would be embarressed too if i were them, but im not. im an iron warrior and we turned from the emperor and are not ashamed.


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

BlackApostleVilhelm said:


> the codex retort is getting old people. yes the codex's were written as cannon and fluff BUT they were written from that army's perspective. if you read the chaos marines codex it states a lot of what happened to them and how they got the way they are, FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE


No, just because the description is detailed doesn't mean it's also biased. It's an omniscient narrator. C:CSM for example doesn't claim that the Imperium is wrong and that Chaos is right, though it does state what the traitors think. 

The Imperial Infantrymen's Uplifting Primer or the 3rd edition Craftworld Eldar Codex (where each Craftworld was described by Inquisitor Czevak), now those were written in an in-universe perspective.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

no it really is. how else would they then sell the codex. Its in laws of marketing you don' tell the whole truth about the product. Just the good stuff or the stuff that makes the product appealing. the creator/creators arn't going to be like yah plus yah ought to know that this chapter is a scummy, selfish, traitor chapter... like really you have to options, make that chapter look secretive, or make it look unatractive and unsecretive.


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## Fangio (Nov 23, 2008)

Fluff'Ead said:


> It's not unknown if it's described in the codices.
> Astellan's story is directly contradicted by canon fluff. There is nothing that proves that anything he stated was a "fact".


I, like a lot of other people here it seems, see the codex as simply another angle of the DA. I truly feel that it is not unbiased. My way of looking at it is to say that it is kind of like the text they give to new members of the inner circle. The one where you find out what happened but don't get to know everything because the whole truth is so huge that you will likely turn Fallen out of principle!

From a irl perspective I agree totally with ckcrawford, keeping us from knowing the whole truth as well makes the DA more interesting.

What I am saying is not trying to contradict you. I do entertain the possibility that the DA background is in fact as black and white as it is the codex but I can't help but feel that there is more. My earlier post was a synopsis of what I think plus explanations but I do very much disagree with your view, Fluff'Ead, that the codex is gospel. It can be but not always. The SM codex for example talks about how the Ultramarines are a perfect exemple of following the Codex Astartes to the letter but there are BL books that show examples of this not always being the case. Another example is the IG codex which goes on about Commissar discipline but then there is Caphias Cain who happily contradicts the codex's claim. (ok maybe the IG aren't the best example but the point stands)


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## inqusitor_me (Jan 27, 2008)

ckcrawford said:


> Okay... really. He said he had nothing that he wanted forgivness for. He is not going to get redeemed. ever. Especially if the fallen thinks the primarch is a piece of shit, and knows of his flaws. He is not going to go and be like "im sorry i fought for the emperor and not for the chapter." Most people go like "well its told by Astellan's perspective." Most of the FACTS he states are ussually not denied by the interagotor chaplain. The only defense the chaplain really puts is that Astellan was wrong and he should have let himself die. And if Astellan is really a lieing scumbag piece of #$% as some of the Dark Angels players think he is. Why the heck would they keep him alive under the rock. If hes lieing he is obviously an agent of chaos "and must be purged" of his sins. Yah lets just put him under the rock with a few of the other "chaos" traitors. ITs not like they can summon some daemon or something, and just compleltly destroy the rock.


really dude tbh i disagree with you there have you ever done any thing so bad/nasty that when you dad/mum came to you about it you didnt brake down (or was that just me lol). the back gournd storyies are what keeps me in this hobby tbh im allways reading stuff(apart from any thorp stuff or he who shall not be named just say he F*&Ked lokien up in the heresy novels and no it wasint abnett lol hes the bome) but im going of topic in the face of your father/mother you will always want forgiveness.


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## Skye (Oct 22, 2008)

From what I understand from the Starchild theory (that's what it is called right?) Cypher was only a title, and the current Cypher is the main character from Descent of Angels...whos name I cannot remember for the life of me. 
Lion El Johnson was going to turn Chaos when Luther stood in his way. Epic battle ensued leaving the Lion burried under The Rock and Luther in prison. No one knows why they kept Luther alive.
It is said that Cypher is the Fallen Angels only chance for redemption, and anywhere Cypher appears, Fallen seem to be attracted towards (though none know how they find him or why they gather.). His movements seem to lead on a pattern towards Terra, where it is said that the lions blade can heal the Emperor himself
That's basically all I know about it... other than the story is sometimes flipped to where Luther is the traitor, but who knows with the Dark Angels and all :washim:
But...yeah, it's good to be a lorewhore :mrgreen:

Edit: Oh! I remembered one of my best sources. on page 142 of the OLD Chaos codex (gaudy yellow thing with Abaddon on the cover) it talks all about the Fallen plus the old rules for Cypher.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

hahaha. 
LOREWHORE. Basically


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## Skye (Oct 22, 2008)

:victory: And proud of it!


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## Lupercal's Chosen (May 8, 2008)

Cyphers story is vary vague but they say he always shows up in places that will benefit the imperium so probaly a good guy they took him out of the game because they really were not sure what to do with him which is annoying he is not luther though they say they are going to reveal his identity some time soon the DA chapter chose to follow theyre primarch and watch who would win the heresy that is 1 of theyre secrets they say that half theyre chapter fell and embraced the ruinous powers but a background story is that luther led that half to try and get to terra to join the battle against horus whos knows also some say cypher is trying to get back to the throne to either finish the emperor off finishing the star child theory where by the emp is resurected as a star god or to free the emp fro the prison that the lords of terra have him in???

Azrael lion'el and Bethor are all pussies forever cowards die in shame


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

no seriously. I agree. At least chaos chose a side you know? So did the warriors of them empyream. But the DA's... bitch cowards is all i have to say


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