# 5th Edition Blood Angels Confirmed by GW



## Bane_of_Kings

NEW BLOOD ANGELS INFORMATION! SEE BOTTOM OF PAGE! 



> Incoming! Blood Angels
> 
> This April the Blood Angels will be re-launched with an all-new Codex and range of plastic and metal miniatures. One of the oldest and noblest of all Space Marine Chapters, the Blood Angels have stood fast against the enemies of the Imperium since the Great Crusade and it was their Primarch Sanguinius, who laid down his life to aid the Emperor against Horus in the final hours of the Warmaster’s rebellion. The new Codex explores the background and history of these superhuman warriors like never before, and contains new artwork depicting some of their greatest battles and most powerful champions.
> 
> The Blood Angels have always been a powerful close combat army and have been made even deadlier thanks to a range of specialist wargear, the ability to field Assault Squads as Troops choices, and more Dreadnoughts than any other Space Marine Chapter, including a Death Company Dreadnought and the fabled Furioso Dreadnought. The Sons of Sanguinius will be deep striking onto a tabletop near you this April – now’s the time to practice painting red.
> 
> 
> 
> Back to Top
> 
> 
> Games Workshop Limited, a company incorporated in England and Wales. Registered office address Willow Road, Lenton, Nottingham, NG7 2WS, England. Company number 1467092.
> 
> Content of this email © Games Workshop Limited 2010 excepting all materials pertaining to the New Line theatrical productions: The Fellowship of The Ring; The Two Towers; and The Return of The King © MMX New Line Productions, Inc. All Rights Reserved. The Lord of The Rings, The Fellowship of The Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of The King and the names of the characters, items, events and places therein are trademarks of The Saul Zaentz Company d/b/a Tolkien Enterprises under license to New Line Productions, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Specific game rules & game strategy copyright © Games Workshop Limited 2010. All Rights Reserved. Games Workshop, Citadel, Warhammer, Warhammer 40,000 and all associated marks from the Warhammer world and Warhammer 40,000 universe (including derivatives thereof) are © ™ and/or ® Games Workshop Limited 2000-2010, variably registered in the UK and around the world. All rights reserved.


EDIT: NEW INFORMATION FROM GAMES WORKSHOP. THE INFORMATION IS COPIED AND PASTED BENEATH.




> Incoming: Blood Angels
> 
> The Blood Angels are amongst the proudest and noblest of all Space Marine Chapters, locked in a constant battle against the enemies of Mankind and the Flaw that lies within their geneseed.
> 
> Heroic Space Marines of the First Founding, the Blood Angels have fought for more than ten thousand years in the name of the Emperor and their Primarch Sanguinius -their beatific countenance and unquestioning valour, however, belies a deadly trait that lies deep within the very soul of the Blood Angels Chapter, the legacy of their Primarch's horrific death at the hands of Horus the traitor. Despite this Flaw that haunts their ranks, the Blood Angels stoically fight on, determined to protect humanity and earn glory in battle against the aliens, heretics and traitors of the galaxy.
> 
> This April, the Blood Angels, an iconic Warhammer 40,000 army return with a brand-new Codex and a fantastic selection of new miniatures. With an almost legendary reputation for the speed and ferocity of their assaults, expect brutal Deep Strike attacks, super-charged Rhinos and a whole host of exciting new options. Now's the time to perfect your red painting techniques, ready your Tactical Squads and prepare for the release of the scions of Sanguinius.
> 
> For more information on the upcoming Blood Angels, make sure to keep an eye on the Games Workshop website and check out April's issue of White Dwarf.



Source: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=6800024a



> Blood Angels Previewed at your local store!
> 
> Every month, to coincide with each major release, we send a 'black box' of goodies to your local Hobby Centre which the staff can put together and show off, allowing you to get a good look at the new miniatures (and sometimes, some of the new rules) up close and personal.
> 
> This April, the fearsome Blood Angels return together with a range of new plastic box sets and metal blisters, and the very best way to see these amazing new miniatures is to get down to your local Hobby Centre, because this month we've not only sent the brand new codex, but also two of the most exciting new units in the game...
> 
> Our staff will be more than happy to show you the models and take a peek at the new codex!
> 
> So, if you want to be among the first to see, hold and find out about this new models you better get down to your local Hobby Centre today!


Discuss. I will update this thread as more information concerning the Blood Angels is realsed. OR, A Moderator can do it for me if they wish, as I will not always be able to check this thread.


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## HandOfNephthys

Hmmmm... I've never heard of a chapter called the "Blood Angles."
I bet they beat you with protractors and assault your mind with the mighty Pythagorean theorem!
Yays for not so constructive criticism and cynical grammar Nazi-ness!


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## thesteelclaw

my red army has sat waiting too long - no offence to the rumour smiths out there i only get excited when dates are confirmed by GW. (i still read the rumours though cos your mostly right).
Back on topic - hurrah to a confirmed date.


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## bitsandkits

Yup the blood angels are coming , i got the news letter in my mail also this morning. release date is April 3rd.


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## Commander_Culln

I may not do the blood angels, but in fluff terms having more and more of the turning to the black rage it could make some interesting special rules...


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## Kobrakai

Awesome news for the Sons of Sanguinius! 

Blood Angels are a awesome army, looking forward to seeing what they got planned, will it be like a upgrade kit like the Dark Angels / Space Wolves / Black Templars have, or something a little less like Imperial / Crimson Fists? 

Either way, great to see!


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## Talos

This is great news. While I like using the PDF for my Flesh Tearers as it is not that bad of a codex an update would be great. Glad to see that assault marines will stay as troops as I have quite a few. Did not know BA had more dreads than any other chapter. 
It seems BA will be a deepstrike heavy marine force.


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## MaidenManiac

bitsandkits said:


> Release date is April 3rd.


Soo, Tyranids were supposed to be released the 2nd Jan, this the 3d April, could we possibly see a 4th 40k codex this year? The summer is most likely the breaking point for that. Would be damn good for the game


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## bonswizzle

As excited as I am about this as we've been waiting an age, I was just about to start a new army after having to sell all my gear years ago.

Now naturally I wanted to start again with BA (as I was about to start them when I went on hobby hiatus), now, do I get some models painted up and hope for example that they won't all be out of date in a few months time? Or wait? I'm torn.

Overall fantastic news though!


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## Winterous

FUCK.
Beaten to it!


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## Bane_of_Kings

Fixed Title. @ Winterous: I thought I was beaten to it until I read the forum.


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## Jezlad

Great, I sold mine when they fucked Blood Angels up but I'll probably get some more. 

Pretty happy with this.


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## Lord of the Night

Awesome, can't wait to see the new Sons of Sanguinius.

Just in time for my birthday as well.


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## Baron Spikey

woo I have still my old BA army in the garage (not been updated for 7-8 yrs but meh), me thinks I'll be buying this


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## BrotherYorei

MaidenManiac said:


> Soo, Tyranids were supposed to be released the 2nd Jan, this the 3d April, could we possibly see a 4th 40k codex this year? The summer is most likely the breaking point for that. Would be damn good for the game


actually, i believe GW did mention awhile back, releaseing more codises per year so they can do all of them for each edition. they used to relese three per year, correct?


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## EmbraCraig

Good to have this confirmed - only a few months away 

My BA are on hold for now anyway, will give me time to actually get my Tau painted up and get my new 'nids underway...


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## Khorothis

Damn! Just when I was settled on collecting Warriors of Chaos... I'm so tempted, I love the Blood Angels! And my birthday is just two days before the release date... (yup, its April 1 :grin


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## Muffinman

Damn I just sold my Blood Angels 2 months ago and now I'm gonna wanna go out and buy some more. What do u guys think they mean when they said, "More Dreadnoughts than any other Space marine Chapter."? I also hope the bring back Moriar and make Tycho a viable choice.


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## Lukewhitrow

going to be great to break out the bad boys again


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## Khorothis

Muffinman said:


> What do u guys think they mean when they said, "More Dreadnoughts than any other Space marine Chapter."?


1, Dreadnought squadrons (like IG) or 2, DSing Dreads count as Fast Attack (like GKs) choices.


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## Inquisitor Einar

* sighs * Well, Happy for the BA players out there, you had a codex coming for a while too.. I guess next up will be the eldar, or possibly the necrons.. I just hope the Inquisition and the Dark Eldar will get their turn as well.


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## liforrevenge

SWEET, my birthday is in April too, so we all know what I'll be getting then!

Let's hope they release a new Lemartes model. Man that guy is ugly.


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## tu_shan82

liforrevenge said:


> SWEET, my birthday is in April too, so we all know what I'll be getting then!
> 
> Let's hope they release a new Lemartes model. Man that guy is ugly.


He looks like caca.


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## Baron Spikey

I think the Dreanought thing just means they can more variations of Dreadnought than any other Codex, what with inclusion of the Furioso and making Dreanoughts Death Company.


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## Lord of the Night

liforrevenge said:


> SWEET, my birthday is in April too, so we all know what I'll be getting then!
> 
> Let's hope they release a new Lemartes model. Man that guy is ugly.


Lemartes looks sweet, although I hope they change his mask to gold like it should be.

I hope they add Moriar as a hero and give Mephiston a new model, also perhaps a real Sanguinary Priest model.


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## MaidenManiac

Muffinman said:


> ...What do u guys think they mean when they said, "More Dreadnoughts than any other Space marine Chapter."?...


In 3d ed BA had Furioso Dreadnoughts as Elite and standard Dreadnoughts as Heavy Support. Thus allowing more Dreadnoughts then normal SM lists without Master of the Forge 

I think the Death Company Dreadnought was a special character, not sure though, if Im wrong then it was Elite too


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## Katie Drake

I dunno how I feel about the idea of Dreadnought squadrons... seems kinda dumb, but if that's the only odd thing they add to the Codex and the rest is awesome, I'll be more than satisfied. Here's to hoping for lots of vehicles with overcharged engines, wargear being brought in line with Codex Space Marines and other goodies. :biggrin:


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## World Eater XII

hhhm a spacca mahreen chapter worth looking into methinks


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## stooge92

i was in my local GW store last week, and the general consensus was that GW were deciding whether dark angels were worth re-doing, or whether they should discontinue it.

One rep. also mentioned 'chaos space marines' are on the cards and are due also


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## Khorothis

Hey, what if there'll be a Dread hero who makes Dreads troop choices? You can make a Dreadnought army! :grin:

Or a Jump Infantry army. Would be nice and it would make sense too. Maybe they'll make some special Jump Packs that look like angel wings. Plastic ones of course.


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## Churlton

All I can say is .................. "For Sanguinius!"

:biggrin:


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## Katie Drake

Khorothis said:


> Hey, what if there'll be a Dread hero who makes Dreads troop choices? You can make a Dreadnought army! :grin:


*groans* I know the chances of this happening are slim, but if it does I will not be impressed. Oh good, we can take Dreadnoughts as Troops, though they can't capture objectives...


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## Khorothis

Katie Drake said:


> *groans* I know the chances of this happening are slim, but if it does I will not be impressed. Oh good, we can take Dreadnoughts as Troops, though they can't capture objectives...


Why not? :grin:


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## Winterous

Khorothis said:


> Why not? :grin:


Because vehicles are not scoring units, unless, like the Dark Angels Land Speeders, they are specified to do so.


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## tu_shan82

stooge92 said:


> i was in my local GW store last week, and the general consensus was that GW were deciding whether dark angels were worth re-doing, or whether they should discontinue it.
> 
> One rep. also mentioned 'chaos space marines' are on the cards and are due also


Please let this be bullshit, it would be a tragedy for GW to discontinue the Dark Angels, as they're one of the most interesting chapters out there.


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## Bindi Baji

tu_shan82 said:


> Please let this be bullshit, it would be a tragedy for GW to discontinue the Dark Angels, as they're one of the most interesting chapters out there.


while there is nothing imminent for the DA, they are definately not being discontinued, it's just people having a natter and a guess, CSM are far from due just yet as well, so don't take too much notice what people hear in their local stores.

It wasn't long ago that people were hearing in stores that the trygon was going to be apocalypse only and that the new nid codex would feature the norn queen, 
not to mention the rumours of white scars and blood ravens codexes that were being bandied about stores last year,
stores are strangely enough one of the worst places to get reliable rumours


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## Winterous

MaidenManiac said:


> In 3d ed BA had Furioso Dreadnoughts as Elite and standard Dreadnoughts as Heavy Support. Thus allowing more Dreadnoughts then normal SM lists without Master of the Forge
> 
> I think the Death Company Dreadnought was a special character, not sure though, if Im wrong then it was Elite too


You're right on all counts there, the DC Dreadnought was called Moriar the Chosen, had random Attack (D6+2), and had the black rage (frenzy).
He was taken as an Elites choice.



Bindi Baji said:


> It wasn't long ago that people were hearing in stores that the trygon was going to be apocalypse only and that the new nid codex would feature the norn queen,


BWAHAHAHAHA, A NORN QUEEN, ON THE GROUND?
Anyone who even considered that possible is an utter fool, the Norn Queens are massive space-borne bio-factories!
They wouldn't FIT on a battlefield.


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## Khorothis

Winterous said:


> BWAHAHAHAHA, A NORN QUEEN, ON THE GROUND?
> Anyone who even considered that possible is an utter fool, the Norn Queens are massive space-borne bio-factories!
> They wouldn't FIT on a battlefield.


Maybe it would have been a chibi version, you know, very small (in comparison, mind you), big eyes and kills with cuteness. :grin:


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## Winterous

Khorothis said:


> Maybe it would have been a chibi version, you know, very small (in comparison, mind you), big eyes and kills with cuteness. :grin:


Oh god...


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## Khorothis

Kinda yeah, but more like:









But this is a Blood Angels thread so:








A must-have, really. Wish I could say BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD ANGEL!


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## Catpain Rich

Found this on the GW site http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=7300006a


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## Bane_of_Kings

Posted the link that it had on there in the OP.


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## Catpain Rich

Cheers, I rather like Sanguinius. It's nice to see blood angels get an update after so long.


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## fett14622

This is great news.:grin:


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## admirzay12

so then, 10 man boxes with jump packs, shoulder pads, more pwr weapons and a few details for good measure?


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## MJayC50

i hope that the assault troops get heroic intervention! otherwise these guys are going to suck and it wont be competitive! who takes assault marines these days? lots of assault cannons i can imagine. lots of power weapons. maybe even some kind of mark of the wolfen type affair for some squads (red veil). overcharged engines may actually do something that doesnt hurt you so much - to stop them from immobising themselves so easily. maybe even an open topped rhino! id like that. furiso's av13? hope not. or venerable furisio's av13 - that would be nasty. i cant even contemplate how nasty mephistons powers are going to be if the wolf/nid/csm codex is anything to go by. some uber attack madness buff or something worse. who knows! im sure the spear of telesto will make an appearance in the codex. that would be awesome. (relic blade that has a built in st6 ap3 flamer would replicate the book quite nicely) would be pricey tho. death company should keep the rending. they prolly need heroic intervention more than anyone else. or they will die horribly. fnp would be good 2. im excited and i dont even intend to buy a single model! il stick with the wolves for now!


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## fett14622

I wonder if BA will have access to the Legion of the Damned


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## Justicar Alaric

I just Hope Mephiston and Dante get a re-sculpt the models for both of them are starting to show their age, especially when you look at some of the newer characters.

Hope they get some better options as the pdf codex was a little brief and limited.


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## fett14622

Justicar Alaric said:


> I just Hope Mephiston and Dante get a re-sculpt the models for both of them are starting to show their age, especially when you look at some of the newer characters.
> 
> Hope they get some better options as the pdf codex was a little brief and limited.


I hope so too...

Lemartes needs a re-sculpt too.


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## tu_shan82

I reckon Dante still looks quite good considering his age, so does Tycho. The main problem with Mephiston is his height, he looks a little short standing next to your average Joe tactical marine. Lemartes on the other hand is just plain fucking ugly, I've never liked that model.


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## fett14622

Lemartes must be getting a re-sculpt. His model of off the GW site


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## pathwinder14

Drooling and waiting. I hope they leave Dante alone, give Corbulo a jump pack, give Vet Assault squads the ability to assault the turn they DS, and put supercharged engines on an increased capacity Land Raider.


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## fett14622

Thant would be sick having supercharged engines on a Land Raider.:victory:


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## Stephen_Newman

They doubt they will put overcharged engines on a land raider since it would be waaay too powerful considering its armour value.

I would rather not have a resculpt of corbulo, tycho or dante but mephiston definately needs a redo since he just does not look as fearsome as someone who has overcome the red thirst should.

I can practically guarantee the upgrade sprue for blood angels and a specific new furioso dreadnought could be possible that could also make a death company dreadnought or moriar. I would love to see some new death company that look a little more enraged without them resembling either space wolves or khorne beserkers too much.

I think the new codex should have furious charge splashed around and then the feel no pain to those who have given in to the black rage.


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## Stella Cadente

fett14622 said:


> Lemartes must be getting a re-sculpt. His model of off the GW site


don't get your hopes up, they took the dark angel characters down as well when the DA codex was being done, and only give them shitty banners and new blisters, expect all the characters to remain as ugly bland and horrible as they are right now.

and unless you can have an entire death company army I couldn't care less, having an entire army fall to black rage was allot of fun and was the only thing that stopped blood angels looking like a butch of blood sucking pansies.


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## Katie Drake

Stella Cadente said:


> and unless you can have an entire death company army I couldn't care less, having an entire army fall to black rage was allot of fun and was the only thing that stopped blood angels looking like a butch of blood sucking pansies.


Sounds like someone got their asses handed to them by Blood Angels too many times. :laugh:


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## Stella Cadente

Katie Drake said:


> Sounds like someone got their asses handed to them by Blood Angels too many times. :laugh:


nope, just don't like there fluff at all, don't like there colour scheme, hate there characters, hate there models utterly cus the sculpts are just awful, and Tycho the only decent character is about as useful as a fart in a blanket.

why would anyone waste time with them


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## Azkaellon

Stella Cadente said:


> nope, just don't like there fluff at all, don't like there colour scheme, hate there characters, hate there models utterly cus the sculpts are just awful, and Tycho the only decent character is about as useful as a fart in a blanket.
> 
> why would anyone waste time with them


Aka: Mephiston laid the smack down on him and he didn't enjoy it:victory:

Go blood angels! the only COOL Marine chapter! Sure most of that is because they had an awesome primarch....and Mephiston....


Did i mention Mephiston?


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## Catpain Rich

Stella Cadente said:


> nope, just don't like there fluff at all, don't like there colour scheme, hate there characters, hate there models utterly cus the sculpts are just awful, and Tycho the only decent character is about as useful as a fart in a blanket.
> 
> why would anyone waste time with them


I'll agree that some of the models are not the best. Though, I would argue that their fluff portrays them more as tragic heroes and more three dimensional than your average marine chapter.

EDIT: ZOMG! 200th post! (yes that was necessary)


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## Katie Drake

Stella Cadente said:


> nope, just don't like there fluff at all, don't like there colour scheme, hate there characters, hate there models utterly cus the sculpts are just awful, and Tycho the only decent character is about as useful as a fart in a blanket.


Oh, okay. So you're just being spiteful and miserable like usual. And to think that it might actually have something to do with the Sons of Sanguinius... :laugh:


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## shaantitus

Rather than new dreads, would it not be more likley that there would be an upgrade sprue for the plastic dread. If they did it right it could take care of all the alternative dread configurations including the mortis patern and the furiso with a few alternative sarcophagus covers.

Wow stella. That is a big bucket of vitriol you unloaded on the BA's.


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## Stella Cadente

Witch King of Angmar said:


> Aka: Mephiston laid the smack down on him and he didn't enjoy it


obviously people can't read, I didn't actually mention him in my post, I mentioned the fluff and the models and there scheme, I wish people would read properly


Katie Drake said:


> Oh, okay. So you're just being spiteful and miserable like usual. And to think that it might actually have something to do with the Sons of Sanguinius...


again is the task of reading what people post too hard for people?, or is closing your eyes blocking your ears and going "NANANANANANANANANANA" suit people better?

my problem is with the blood angels, as I said the fluff sucks, the models suck, and the scheme sucks, thats just my opinion on them, if I said the same thing about ultramarines it suddenly becomes a different story, but oh no, not the precious blood angels how DARE anybody hate them.

bring back fun death company forces, make tycho useful, actually try and sculpt the characters, and I might give 2 craps about blood angels, until then my opinion of them being a steaming pile of horse dung stands.


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## Khorothis

shaantitus said:


> Rather than new dreads, would it not be more likley that there would be an upgrade sprue for the plastic dread. If they did it right it could take care of all the alternative dread configurations including the mortis patern and the furiso with a few alternative sarcophagus covers.
> 
> Wow stella. That is a big bucket of vitriol you unloaded on the BA's.


Nothing out of the ordinary IMHO. Too much /v/ methinks. 

I agree with Captain Rich in that the Blood Angels are much more three dimensional characters, and in the good way, unlike the Dark Angels who're just busy crying and being angsty. In comparison, the Blood Angels are akin to the Crimson Fists in that both have tragic events in their history, though indeed not the same kind and caliber (getting your Chapter almost wiped out is not as bad as having your whole genepool infested with borderline-Khornate rage *forever*). But their way of coping with it is different: while one of them extends the middle finger of their broken but still clenched fist, the other embraces the tragedy and attempts to harness its power for the Imperium, no matter the cost. Resilience vs. sacrifice, sturdiness vs. selflessness, rocks vs. angels. Sure the Blood Angels don't have badass records like the other Chapters, but they stand above these petty measures of greatness, just like angels don't care for the politics and squabbling of mortals. All they care for is the continued existence of humanity in both meanings of the word. 

Hell, all this writing makes me rethink WoC...  :laugh:


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## liforrevenge

Stella Cadente said:


> nope, just don't like there fluff at all, don't like there colour scheme, hate there characters, hate there models utterly cus the sculpts are just awful, and Tycho the only decent character is about as useful as a fart in a blanket.
> 
> why would anyone waste time with them


Some grammar help for you, courtesy, theoatmeal.com (yes, I care)

I don't really understand what you find wrong with them though (apart from the models). You say they suck in your opinion... but how? There's a massive gap between something "sucking" and just disliking something. Maybe what you meant to say is that you don't like them?


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## Katie Drake

Stella Cadente said:


> again is the task of reading what people post too hard for people?, or is closing your eyes blocking your ears and going "NANANANANANANANANANA" suit people better?


I read what you posted, I just simply don't believe you.  You hate everything ever and feel the need to vomit negativity at every opportunity. I seriously doubt it's the fluff, character sculpts and red armor that makes you hate the Blood Angels. I think it's the fact that they're Space Marines that makes you hate them.

:laugh: @ Stella


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## Stella Cadente

Katie Drake said:


> I read what you posted, I just simply don't believe you.  You hate everything ever and feel the need to vomit the negativity at every opportunity. I seriously doubt it's the fluff, character sculpts and red armor that makes you hate the Blood Angels. I think it's the fact that they're Space Marines that makes you hate them.
> 
> :laugh: @ Stella


well I'm happy to make you wrong, although ignorance means that won't mean much.


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## Kale Hellas

do you hate khorne as well if its the red armour?


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## Kale Hellas

the sculpts of tycho and corbulo (spelling?) are pretty bad they look very static, but the fluff is actually pretty intresting. and why do you feel the need to always be negative, try cooling down once in awhile it actually makes you feel better. just a suggestion


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## Stephen_Newman

I disagree about corbulo. The emphasis is not meant to be on him but rather the big grail he carries that has the blood of Sanguinius in it.

I actually liked th pose of Lemartes but the model does look dated. I do not understand people who say that he is "ugly". Lemartes is not meant to be a shining leader like Dante but a guardian of the lost and carers of those suffering the black rage whilst wearing his death mask as his sign of importance in the chapter.

Personally I like the blood angels as my 3rd favourite marine chapter after the raven guard and the salamanders.


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## liforrevenge

Stephen_Newman said:


> I disagree about corbulo. The emphasis is not meant to be on him but rather the big grail he carries that has the blood of Sanguinius in it.
> 
> I actually liked th pose of Lemartes but the model does look dated. I do not understand people who say that he is "ugly". Lemartes is not meant to be a shining leader like Dante but a guardian of the lost and carers of those suffering the black rage whilst wearing his death mask as his sign of importance in the chapter.
> 
> Personally I like the blood angels as my 3rd favourite marine chapter after the raven guard and the salamanders.


Lemartes's mask looks like a pig face. It has huge nostrils, and doesn't look like it would instill fear in a 5 year old. That's what I think makes him look ugly.


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## hijynx

As the Dark Angels were the first army I played, I'm very glad they aren't being thrown in with the Blood Angels codex as rumoured.



> With an almost legendary reputation for the speed and ferocity of their assaults, expect brutal Deep Strike attacks


this makes me want to paint all my marines red.


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## Stephen_Newman

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but that is the reason why Lemartes just needs a touch up rather than an entire remake.

Sorry for any misunderstandings


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## tu_shan82

Stella Stella Stella, tell me please is there anything you won't bitch about?


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## Katie Drake

I hope the Blood Angels don't have too much emphasis placed on _Deep Strike_ tactics. I already play Daemons, I don't want another _Deep Strike_ army.


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## admirzay12

just because you chose those armys make GW change their entire codex.... oh look some one on the forums said they don't want a deep striking army! WE HAVE TO CHANGE IT!!! To the gw-mobile!!


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## Katie Drake

admirzay12 said:


> just because you chose those armys make GW change their entire codex.... oh look some one on the forums said they don't want a deep striking army! WE HAVE TO CHANGE IT!!! To the gw-mobile!!


If that's directed at me, I'd just like to say that I never said that I wanted GW to change the new Blood Angel Codex to remove something I wouldn't like. I just said that I _hope_ that the book doesn't turn out that way. I don't expect my post on a forum to alter GW's design philosophies, believe me.


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## Azkaellon

Katie Drake said:


> If that's directed at me, I'd just like to say that I never said that I wanted GW to change the new Blood Angel Codex to remove something I wouldn't like. I just said that I _hope_ that the book doesn't turn out that way. I don't expect my post on a forum to alter GW's design philosophies, believe me.


Well following how the fluff has changed for both the game and the blood angels.... i think we can expect the following changes.

1)No Tycho he is Dead (Killed in the novels, really sucks to be him to...)
2)Mephiston being much Scarier this is a guy that punch's case Spawn to death with no weapons or armor!
3)Dante Correctly Armed.......He has a Master Crafted Inferno Pistol, not the BS his model is carrying!!
4)Brother Sargent Rafen will hopefully be a new Hq Choice.
5)A Special Rule Against chaos marines, After all Dante just ordered a battle cruiser to hunt down and Kill Fabious Bile After he stole there Blood of Sanginius
6)The Spear of Telos as a Weapon option. (The Weapon of there Primarch crafted by the emperor him self)
7)Perhaps a flying transport? From the fluff and how the chapter works they never seem to use rhino's.............
8) This is more something I hope for...All Blood Angel's should carry a Close combat weapon..........Such as oh...a chain sword??


Also this new book means.....

*RED MARINES GO FASTER!!!!*


----------



## Stella Cadente

tu_shan82 said:


> Stella Stella Stella, tell me please is there anything you won't bitch about?


yes, theres tons of stuff I haven't bitched about, none of it I'm going to go into here of course.


----------



## Katie Drake

Witch King of Angmar said:


> Well following how the fluff has changed for both the game and the blood angels.... i think we can expect the following changes.
> 
> 1)No Tycho he is Dead (Killed in the novels, really sucks to be him to...)
> 2)Mephiston being much Scarier this is a guy that punch's case Spawn to death with no weapons or armor!
> 3)Dante Correctly Armed.......He has a Master Crafted Inferno Pistol, not the BS his model is carrying!!
> 4)Brother Sargent Rafen will hopefully be a new Hq Choice.
> 5)A Special Rule Against chaos marines, After all Dante just ordered a battle cruiser to hunt down and Kill Fabious Bile After he stole there Blood of Sanginius
> 6)The Spear of Telos as a Weapon option. (The Weapon of there Primarch crafted by the emperor him self)
> 7)Perhaps a flying transport? From the fluff and how the chapter works they never seem to use rhino's.............
> 8) This is more something I hope for...All Blood Angel's should carry a Close combat weapon..........Such as oh...a chain sword??
> 
> 
> Also this new book means.....
> 
> *RED MARINES GO FASTER!!!!*


If those shitty novels are used as the basis for the new Codex: Blood Angels, I'll seriously have to consider quitting the entire hobby. I already promised myself flat-out that if they ruin my favorite army by sullying them with what whatever that fucking retard author's name is wrote, that'd be it, I'd be done with 40K. If GW adds stupid shit like that crappy Spear and makes all of the Blood Angel characters as intelligent as small children, that will well and truly be it.

I love 40K. I love my Marines. I love the hobby, I really do. But if GW comes along and nukes my favorite force (like they did when the new Chaos Codex came out), than enough is enough.

Sorry to rant everybody. I just feel very strongly about this particular subject. 

Katie D


----------



## stooge92

i dont know if this has been mentioned yet--- i hope Dante gets made into an eternal warrior, i mean, a 200pt model that is the big boy of the army and one power fist and he's dead (or a lascannon to the heas as i have done). i mean even yarrick is an eternal warrior and he's just a guardmen, it makes no sense that Dante shouldnt be

what about the other chapter bosses? are they eternal warriors?


----------



## Prothor Ironfist

As far as i know they aren't so I doubt he will be but you never know :victory:


----------



## stooge92

Prothor Ironfist said:


> As far as i know they aren't so I doubt he will be but you never know :victory:


i think thats a cop out- a BA player wants to field their boss and throw him into cc straight away- but if an enemy T4 model has a powerfist, thats it, instant death if he fails the 4+ invun save.. thats dodgey seeing as yarrick can get 2 lascannons to the chest and not die-- and even if he does he comes back on a 3+ next turn

bullsh*t


----------



## Azkaellon

Katie Drake said:


> If those shitty novels are used as the basis for the new Codex: Blood Angels, I'll seriously have to consider quitting the entire hobby. I already promised myself flat-out that if they ruin my favorite army by sullying them with what whatever that fucking retard author's name is wrote, that'd be it, I'd be done with 40K. If GW adds stupid shit like that crappy Spear and makes all of the Blood Angel characters as intelligent as small children, that will well and truly be it.
> 
> I love 40K. I love my Marines. I love the hobby, I really do. But if GW comes along and nukes my favorite force (like they did when the new Chaos Codex came out), than enough is enough.
> 
> Sorry to rant everybody. I just feel very strongly about this particular subject.
> 
> Katie D



Crappy Novels? There great books and the fact is....Fluff Changes! The emperor is dieing and so on. So none of the chapters will stay the same! If the blood angels DON'T get Updated to the point Mephiston (As even in the non-blood angel books is awesome) Needs to be able to slap around The Head Ultra-Smurfs with no effort, as dante should be able to as well! (I Mean come on!) And if they don't add anything neat such as a very interesting Character i think gw will be dropping the ball.

Not to mention people where talking about tycho....Fact is the dude was LAME and is DEAD! I think Rafen would fill the spot nicely as a special choice (perhaps a tactical squad upgrade?)


So in short...

IF you Don't Like Change, Go Whine somewhere else since there is bound to be lots of new stuff! (And Hopefully the death company stay the same i can't see them getting any stronger.......Plus they fit the fluff perfectly):victory:

Edit:And yes Dante needs Eternal warrior.....as does mephiston.


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Even if the Spear was proper fluff, why would they put a Primarchs weapon in as a weapon option?


----------



## ENGARDE

im glad to hear about the Blood Angels redo, i dont collect Blood Angels but have played them a few times and i find the army charactful, robust and enjoyable to beat or be beaten by, also in my opinion Blood Angels deserve a hardcover codex and i applaud GW for this recognision (and please before anyone of you narky DE thread jackers that lurk these forums waiting for the opportuinty to have a bitch) i truly believe an army that doesnt have a REAL codex deserves one BEFORE an army that actually has one in print.


----------



## stooge92

Witch King of Angmar said:


> Crappy Novels? There great books and the fact is....Fluff Changes! The emperor is dieing and so on. So none of the chapters will stay the same! If the blood angels DON'T get Updated to the point Mephiston (As even in the non-blood angel books is awesome) Needs to be able to slap around The Head Ultra-Smurfs with no effort, as dante should be able to as well! (I Mean come on!) And if they don't add anything neat such as a very interesting Character i think gw will be dropping the ball.
> 
> Not to mention people where talking about tycho....Fact is the dude was LAME and is DEAD! I think Rafen would fill the spot nicely as a special choice (perhaps a tactical squad upgrade?)
> 
> 
> So in short...
> 
> IF you Don't Like Change, Go Whine somewhere else since there is bound to be lots of new stuff! (And Hopefully the death company stay the same i can't see them getting any stronger.......Plus they fit the fluff perfectly):victory:


WTF are you talking about? Tycho isnt dead, he isnt real, some deadsh*t author wrote a FICTION novel about an IMAGINARY character whos 'dead' - GW shouldnt be bound to following the stories created by authors just because they make good books! they should be able to create whatever characters they want, this is fantasy, why the hell should they be bound into creating something based on imaginary history. there isnt even a QN. of consistancy with the story, he is a BA character, so why not.

the excuse that he is dead is absolutely ridiculous- he isnt real, never was, never will be--- so why not?

and i totally agree with you ENGARDE!!!!!


----------



## Kale Hellas

tycho was a charecter made for a white dwarf battle he succumb to a wierd boy psyker attack in the battle thats where some of tycho's fluff comes from it was expanded into a charecter by games workshop


----------



## ENGARDE

its been my experience that the novels are often contradictory and can exist at times at right angles rather than parrallel to the core of an armys literature. We have to bare in mind that often the 40K universe is fluid and filled with allsorts of nonsensical rubbish (remembering also that we live in the real world and 40K is the fictional ravings of people with vivid imaginations) the amount of times ive have seen a thread about how a bolter works and why it works truly shocks me, bolters arn't real. I agree with you to a degree stooge, the beauty of our hobby is that it exists in the fictional past present and future of the 40K universe, we can have pre heresy death guard armies fighting against post heresy succesor chapters etc. So it makes no sense that they would remove tyco because he died in a book, because our hobby isnt confined to the lineral nature of reality........but as witch king explained.....it doesnt change the fact that he's LAME.....


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

ENGARDE said:


> (and pl ease before anyone of you narky DE thread jackers that lurk these forums waiting for the opportuinty to have a bitch)


Mate, comments like this are baiting those DE eldar players to say something. If you don't want them "taking over" threads, ignore them. Whinging about whingers isn't going to help anything.

Now back on topic, the New Blood Angels Dex.

I really want to see Assualt Marines with Jump Packs become a viable choice. Since they are more vunenerable than those in transports, they need something to make up for it, if Blood Angels get Furious Charge, that might go someway to improve it.

For those people who say that Overcharged engines shouldn't have a chance of immobilised themselves, I think your kidding yourselves. There as to be a disadvantage to going faster, and I think its a really awesome concept, the Blood Angels pushing their vehicles to their limits to get into melee.


----------



## admirzay12

Why do all rumour threads turn into a bitch and a moan about something? Whether it’s DE or whoever or just people complaining about something?? Even now I’m being hypocritical as I’m also complaining about things, but please people I know it’s hard to control yourself and I realise I’m being a dreamer here but please, STOP ACTING LIKE LITTLE GIRLS!!!!

....no offence to any young girls out there...


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

admirzay12 said:


> Why do all rumour threads turn into a bitch and a moan about something? Whether it’s DE or whoever or just people complaining about something?? Even now I’m being hypocritical as I’m also complaining about things, but please people I know it’s hard to control yourself and I realise I’m being a dreamer here but please, STOP ACTING LIKE LITTLE GIRLS!!!!
> 
> ....no offence to any young girls out there...


Yea, kinda hypocritical 

Can we stay on topic now?


----------



## ENGARDE

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Mate, comments like this are baiting those DE eldar players to say something. If you don't want them "taking over" threads, ignore them. Whinging about whingers isn't going to help anything.
> 
> Now back on topic, the New Blood Angels Dex.
> 
> I really want to see Assualt Marines with Jump Packs become a viable choice. Since they are more vunenerable than those in transports, they need something to make up for it, if Blood Angels get Furious Charge, that might go someway to improve it.
> 
> For those people who say that Overcharged engines shouldn't have a chance of immobilised themselves, I think your kidding yourselves. There as to be a disadvantage to going faster, and I think its a really awesome concept, the Blood Angels pushing their vehicles to their limits to get into melee.


i will admit there was a little bait in that, and i make no apology for it. 

but your point about overcharged engines makes complete sense, playing chaos i know the excitement you get from make a gamble if it pays of "memorable moment" if not "memorable moment you would rather forget" either way it ads excitment and narrative to your battles.


----------



## darkreever

admirzay12 said:


> STOP ACTING LIKE LITTLE GIRLS!!!!
> 
> ....no offence to any young girls out there...


For starters, you make the insult and then immediatly after try to make it known that your not insinuating that your insulting a specific group, but in order for your previous statement to have any meaning or validity, the second statement cannot be true.

You mini rant about members complaining, but guess what? When change occurs, not everyone is going to like it, and until its decided here on Heresy that whining of change that you think is bad will not be tolerated, its going to happen and its going to be seen. Get the fuck over it and move on.


As for the use of Swallow's Blood Angel books and integrating idea's from them with what we currently have. I am mostly with Katie in that I hope they do not include them, or not very much at any rate. A sad truth is that if you consider even one Black Library novel to be canon and acceptable within the game and codecies, then you must accept them all in this way. There would be no fair way for you to determine which books should and should not be included other than all or nothing.

Personally though, I don't want to see the Blood Angels being a deep striking force because while they have a big emphasis on speed and assault, that does not mean they are not tactically flexible to be able to perform other types of combat. I believe they should have an emphasis on assault oriented units as they currently do, but those choices need to be made more viable or interesting. (Here an out there one, assault squads able to take more than ten marines per squad.)


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

ENGARDE said:


> but your point about overcharged engines makes complete sense, playing chaos i know the excitement you get from make a gamble if it pays of "memorable moment" if not "memorable moment you would rather forget" either way it ads excitment and narrative to your battles.


Aye, fun enough that it makes freindly games a ball, yet the downside isn't bad enough to make it a non-competative choice.


----------



## ENGARDE

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Aye, fun enough that it makes freindly games a ball, yet the downside isn't bad enough to make it a non-competative choice.


true true, its a shame that competative usually insinuates boring, i mean i know there is fun to be had in soundly thumping your opponent but ive seen far to many twin lash princes, and JoTWW etc builds to think otherwise. I guess it would fall to a similar fate as the Chaos Dread, people just wouldnt use blood angel rhinos and opt for drop pods or raiders instead.


----------



## Katie Drake

darkreever said:


> Personally though, I don't want to see the Blood Angels being a deep striking force because while they have a big emphasis on speed and assault, that does not mean they are not tactically flexible to be able to perform other types of combat. I believe they should have an emphasis on assault oriented units as they currently do, but those choices need to be made more viable or interesting. (Here an out there one, assault squads able to take more than ten marines per squad.)



Exactly. The Blood Angels have an established fighting style right now. They operate quickly and viciously, preferring close combat, but they're still a mostly Codex Chapter, so they're more than capable of fielding an effective, balanced force.

If the Blood Angels suddenly become something else, I for one won't be terribly impressed by it. I've heard crazy rumors about Thunderhawks dropping off vehicles via _Deep Strike_ in the middle of the battle. I've heard about Blood Angels wearing jump packs with wings on them, wielding gauntlet-mounted storm bolters, halberds and spears. All of this will cause them to drift further and further from the Codex Astartes, which they do their best to follow, hence why they only have a few non-Codex units right now. It'd change the Blood Angels from an army that struggles to adhere to the rules laid down by Gulliman into a Chapter that more resembles the Space Wolves or Black Templars who disregard the Codex Astartes completely.


----------



## darkreever

Not to take this slightly off topic, but the common misconception of the Blood Angels is an interesting one (that they have anything but a slight emphasis in the assault area) because as Katie has pointed out they are, and make great efforts to remain, a balanced codex chapter.

Its similar to the Raven Guard, they are a fairly codex chapter with shadow-companies that work independant of each other and their homeworld for very long periods of time; all of these companies are formed and armed differently. However most people assume that all Raven Guard are like Shrike and his third shadow-company, very assault heavy, but this is simply not the case.


To take a force or codex, and remake it based around these misconceptions is change of a sort. It is not good change though, it is very bad change because it tosses all of the old away without basing the new around key elements of it.


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Dropping off vehicles from Thunderhawk [Transporters] is a good idea for Blood Angels it suits them. Off course, they should have the option to simply move on. Afterall, Codex Astrates has the Thunderhawk Transporter, why don't they use it?


----------



## admirzay12

probs just a rumour, but if it was true it would be a game breaker... if you are playing an ork player and then decide to deep strike a LR on top of his war boss and then mannage to kill it, then hes lost, even if he mannages to kill it on the next turn his main unit is gone. and i dont think boys can even scratch a LR.


----------



## darkreever

Not that you would be able to do that, since it would be you deepstriking onto an enemy model, and thats a deepstrike mishap. Plus a knob with klaw is fairly able to take on a land raider.


----------



## Katie Drake

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Dropping off vehicles from Thunderhawk [Transporters] is a good idea for Blood Angels it suits them. Off course, they should have the option to simply move on. Afterall, Codex Astrates has the Thunderhawk Transporter, why don't they use it?


Because it can't (at least in my opinion) be accurately represented in a normal sized game of 40K. A Thunderhawk transporter is a massive model that can carry either two Rhino-sized vehicles, or a single Land Raider. It needs to touch down to allow the vehicles to "disembark" so to speak, which makes it a target. Heavy duty drops are more the realm of Planetstrike and Apocalypse. Unless they're going to drop tanks off while moving at great speed from very high up and let them come crashing down onto the battlefield, there's really no good way to drop off heavy support in a hot spot. The American military, for example, drops off Abrams tanks far from the front line with huge cargo jets. You'd never see them attempt such a thing in an active battlefield.


----------



## stooge92

BA specific drop pods? maybe modified ones--- i doubt it, but that would be awesome if a fast moving army like that would be able to have different drop pod options for different types of units- like heavy duty ones that drop in tanks or something


----------



## Azkaellon

stooge92 said:


> BA specific drop pods? maybe modified ones--- i doubt it, but that would be awesome if a fast moving army like that would be able to have different drop pod options for different types of units- like heavy duty ones that drop in tanks or something


Sadly the only thing they seem to use LOTS of is the thunder hawk! How ever i could see a plastic Aquila Class lander.........OR the army being able to move after deep striking. (in which case god help the tau)


----------



## Winterous

Actually, I really hope they release a Dreadnought Drop Pod with this, because Blood Angels players love their Fruioso Dreadnoughts, and want the to be in the enemy's face.

And, you know, a Dreadnought squeezing into an infantry Drop Pod looks ridiculous, and the Forge World option is expensive...


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Katie Drake said:


> Because it can't (at least in my opinion) be accurately represented in a normal sized game of 40K. A Thunderhawk transporter is a massive model that can carry either two Rhino-sized vehicles, or a single Land Raider. It needs to touch down to allow the vehicles to "disembark" so to speak, which makes it a target. Heavy duty drops are more the realm of Planetstrike and Apocalypse. Unless they're going to drop tanks off while moving at great speed from very high up and let them come crashing down onto the battlefield, there's really no good way to drop off heavy support in a hot spot. The American military, for example, drops off Abrams tanks far from the front line with huge cargo jets. You'd never see them attempt such a thing in an active battlefield.


I know what your saying, I was just meaning that dropping vehicles from transporters onto the battlefield is a Codex sanctioned thing, but the Blood Angels have the guts to do it a it closer to the enemy. 

I see what you mean by the Transporter needing to get close, but in a normal game of 40k, what weapons can realiably take down a Thunderhawk Transporter that quickly? Even 9 Zoanthropes or 9 Broadsidedes or 3 Hellstrikes would have difficultly making a one turn take down.

Ellysian's drop sentinels using grav-chutes, I was thinking bigger vehicle=more room for Grav-chute like equiptment and also, a more robust hull. Drop Pods survive from orbit, so I presume a Tank could survive from an atmospheric drop.


----------



## admirzay12

darkreever said:


> Not that you would be able to do that, since it would be you deepstriking onto an enemy model, and thats a deepstrike mishap. Plus a knob with klaw is fairly able to take on a land raider.


you think i meant ON TOP of it?? how dumb do u think i am?:wink:


i simply meant near it, and the LR wouldnt be the 1 doing all the work. If you put a cheap squad of termies in it then the orks would be distracted and certainly waste 300 + points to kill them, which would give ur ACTUAL army some time (2+ turns) before getting assaulted to do something.


----------



## Katie Drake

Yeah, I suppose grav-chutes could slow a vehicle's descent enough that it could land relatively intact. Still a freaking weird mental image though and not an idea I'm a big fan of.

As for blowing up the Transporter, it's actually not that tough. The turn it goes to drop off any vehicles it needs to land, in which case the enemy can use their normal BS to hit it. Since a Thunderhawk's armor isn't any better than a Falcon's, it's not _that_ hard to bring down.

But anyway, this is mostly just idle chatter. We can't know anything for sure until we get some more substantial rumors. Right now things are pretty sparse, so we'll have to wait and see.


----------



## Kale Hellas

i thought grav shutes werent strong enough to insert anything heavier than a sentinel and even then its a fairly modified one


----------



## Winterous

Actually I can see a Rhino sitting on top of a giant metal sheet with like, some sort of decent-slowing device on it.
Hits the ground, Rhino drives off.

A Land Raider is pushing it though, too big.


----------



## Dagmire

Love the idea of BA and will maybe even start an army. But do we really need another CC SM army release???? come on lets get everything else up to date


----------



## stooge92

are there any SM armies that are renowned for ranged combat- i mean, they are usually cc, or all-rounders. are there any shooty shooty SM's?


----------



## The Sullen One

Dagmire said:


> Love the idea of BA and will maybe even start an army. But do we really need another CC SM army release???? come on lets get everything else up to date


Much as agree with you on the need to update other codices, you can't blame Games Workshop for plugging Space Marines for all there worth, after all one in three 40k sales are for Space Marines.



stooge92 said:


> are there any SM armies that are renowned for ranged combat- i mean, they are usually cc, or all-rounders. are there any shooty shooty SM's?


The Dark Angels are suppossedly the ranged Space Marine Army, though regular Space Marines have some good ranged units to boot.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

I don't consider the dark angels as a ranged army since 2 of their companies are full of units that charge straight for the enemy (talking about the ravenwing and deathwing here)


----------



## Talos

I would think the Iron hands would be quite ranged based


----------



## Vahouth

bitsandkits said:


> Yup the blood angels are coming , i got the news letter in my mail also this morning. release date is April 3rd.


Back on topic ... where did you find April 3rd as the release date?
The mail I got wasn't that precise...

On other news...



> background:
> very baroque feeling and images, think of Phantom of the Opera
> history of Blood Angels in full, four succession chapters on one page each
> in the end of m41 curse stronger than before, Mephiston is the only hope
> Mephiston is the focus of the book, 2 pages of story
> Scouts more savage, barbaric, hardly restrained
> reference to space hulk campaign
> fantastic story of Dante and 200 jump pack marines descending on demon world
> 
> plastic boxes:
> Blood Angel Assault Squad
> Honour Guard
> Land Raider Tantalus
> 
> metal boxes:
> Techmarine Victor and Servitor Unholt
> Exalted Assault Squad
> Death company
> Blood Angel Scouts
> 
> blisters:
> Lord of Death
> Commander Dante
> Sanguine Priest Faustus
> 
> Rules:
> army wide special rule: Furious Charge
> 9 Unique Characters, 7 Blood Angels, 3 variants of Tycho
> Mephiston over 300 points!
> cybots: cheaper
> Furioso AV 13, normal: fast attack, venerable: elites
> Scouts: fleet of foot, without sergeant: rage
> Assault Squad: troops
> Tactical Squad sergeant: Devastor weapons twin-linked if fired at targets in proximity to auspex
> Honour Guard and veterans one entry, lots of options, may assault after deepstrike
> new fast attack with wings, S5 weapons, stormbolters an fall back
> death company fully optional, not bound by number of squads
> Devastor: lascannon cheaper than space wolves
> new Land Raider with lots of assault cannons


OMG from B&C posted the above, taken from:http://www.gw-fanworld.net/showthread.php?t=129971&page=20 See post #197

Enjoy:mrgreen:


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Talos said:


> I would like the Iron hands would be quite ranged based


There Mechanicalized, you can't shoot from transports 

Salamanders are the most shooty 'Legion' I'd say, but most of that is Special Weapons.

EDIT: As for the rumours, that Raider was meant to come out for Space Wolves as well 

Cybots= Dreadnoughts, from what I've gathered on the forums over time.


----------



## Winterous

Land Raider Tantalus aye...
I like the sound of that!


----------



## Stephen_Newman

No offence meant by this comment, I am not a marine player but don't we have enough LR variants in the vanilla, crusader and redeemer?

What would be on the tantalus have in regard of weaponary. It sounds like a tarantula so maybe it might be legged? (actually this sounds unlikely)


----------



## darkreever

> background:
> very baroque feeling and images, think of Phantom of the Opera
> history of Blood Angels in full, four succession chapters on one page each
> in the end of m41 curse stronger than before, Mephiston is the only hope
> Mephiston is the focus of the book, 2 pages of story
> Scouts more savage, barbaric, hardly restrained
> reference to space hulk campaign
> fantastic story of Dante and 200 jump pack marines descending on demon world


Personally, if most of this turns out to be true (and we are talking the stuff after the successor chapters) then I for one shall not even be bothering to look at codex Blood Angels.

Like I said before, change is one thing, its inevitable, but to go so completely away and against what has been previously established for the chapter does it a disservice. Mephiston is chief librarian and one of the most powerful psykers of the Imperium yes, but even with the further (and more accelerated) degeneration of the geneseed he cannot be the only damned hope. 

For Mephiston to be the focus of the next codex, that is a cop out in my eyes. He is powerful, he is special, but so are the likes of Dante, the oldest living space marine not interred in a dreadnought. As is Lemartes, the high chaplain of the Blood Angels who is so strong willed that not even being afflicted by the black rage was able to keep him from enacting his duty as a chaplain, or Corbulo, highest of the sanginiuary priests and bearer of the red grail, one of the holiest items of the chapter. Even Tycho, the cop out that some believe his character to be, is an important character for the chapter, managing to maintain enough sense to personally lead the very death company he eventually became a part of in order to help in defeating the orks during the third war for Amrageddon.

Those rumours from B&C do the chapter, in my eyes, no justice background wise. As for the units, Blood Angel sprues for their models is a given and I personally whole heartedly welcome the inclusion of a decent number of characters; but I reserve my final comments of that until I see who and what those characters are and what they are capable of doing.


----------



## Stella Cadente

Stephen_Newman said:


> No offence meant by this comment, I am not a marine player but don't we have enough LR variants in the vanilla, crusader and redeemer?


WHAT!!!!!, cease your madness damnit SPESS MAHREENS neeeeed more stuff thats not gonna be used by anyone due to it being shit.


----------



## Vahouth

darkreever said:


> Personally, if most of this turns out to be true (and we are talking the stuff after the successor chapters) then I for one shall not even be bothering to look at codex Blood Angels.
> 
> Like I said before, change is one thing, its inevitable, but to go so completely away and against what has been previously established for the chapter does it a disservice. Mephiston is chief librarian and one of the most powerful psykers of the Imperium yes, but even with the further (and more accelerated) degeneration of the geneseed he cannot be the only damned hope.
> 
> For Mephiston to be the focus of the next codex, that is a cop out in my eyes. He is powerful, he is special, but so are the likes of Dante, the oldest living space marine not interred in a dreadnought. As is Lemartes, the high chaplain of the Blood Angels who is so strong willed that not even being afflicted by the black rage was able to keep him from enacting his duty as a chaplain, or Corbulo, highest of the sanginiuary priests and bearer of the red grail, one of the holiest items of the chapter. Even Tycho, the cop out that some believe his character to be, is an important character for the chapter, managing to maintain enough sense to personally lead the very death company he eventually became a part of in order to help in defeating the orks during the third war for Amrageddon.
> 
> Those rumours from B&C do the chapter, in my eyes, no justice background wise. As for the units, Blood Angel sprues for their models is a given and I personally whole heartedly welcome the inclusion of a decent number of characters; but I reserve my final comments of that until I see who and what those characters are and what they are capable of doing.


Mephiston deserves that much attention, I mean he is "the lord of Death"
the only ONE to ever conquer the Red Thirst .
That is more than enough.


----------



## darkreever

And what of Lemartes? He is in the grips of it but refuses to let it control him; and instead displays a force of will that allows him to remain himself and still function properly.

Lemartes is afflicted but remains the same man, the same cannot be said of Mephiston; because even he cannot deny the claim that brother Calistarius is long dead.

Lemartes shows a will as strong as Mephiston, so no, that alone is not enough in my opinion. Dante is the oldest living space marine still walking in power armour, does that alone mean he is deserving of pages for himself? No.


----------



## Katie Drake

Background wise a lot of this sounds a little distressing, but as far as the rules go it sounds pretty cool. I like the idea of Furioso Dreadnoughts having a higher AV (since without they get destroyed very easily, often before getting to do anything). It's also interesting to read that there will be a total of nine special characters only seven of which will be Blood Angels. Here's hoping that Chapter Master Seth gets an entry so I don't get any more dirty looks when I use Dante's rules for him. 

I also really like the idea of Scouts receiving _Fleet_. I miss using my 25+ Scouts that I've only used once since the Blood Angel PDF Codex was released. Also, getting army-wide _Furious Charge_ backs sounds like a dream come true.

My Flesh Tearers sound like they'll be very happy come April.


----------



## tu_shan82

Courtesy of BrassScorpion @ DakkaDakka


> 1) It turned out that most of the Tyranid stuff from Germany was true. I think We can think of this as preview, some of it wrong, most of it right.Either someone is very good at taking snippets and piecing them together without making mistakes, or has learned how to pick through GW's garbage exceptionally well.
> 
> 2) I'm going to take this data and conjecture what we can about the likely army list unless there's an FOC modulation as there was with SWolf HQ's.
> 
> 
> I'm doing this to project what we know, what we have from the rumors, and what we are sure to be pushed to buy into a coherent whole. I'm trying to leverage the unique points of BA as I recall them...in the SW dex everything that was special about the wolves got its amps turned up to eleven. We have no reason to think otherwise.
> 
> Call this a wishlist if you like. I call it an intelligence assessment.
> (CONJECTURAL)
> HQ:
> (from BunBun @ warseer
> Dante- As is now but axe will be +1S. Can take an honor guard assault squad.
> Lemartes- Can restrain the Death company.
> Corbulo- Will allow unit he joins to be Fearless and Feel no Pain. Grail counts as a holy relic.
> Moriar- Death Company Venerable Furioso Dreadnought. Nearly duble the number of attacks of a normal dreadnought.
> Tycho- Gives preferred enemy against Orks.
> Sergeant special character- No details as yet.
> (end BunBun)
> Captain (unlocks and honor guard (conjecture); unlocks troop bikers per SM dex (conjecture).
> SC's etc. (Conjecture, some kind of character that enhances flamers; makes dreads scoring, etc.)
> 
> ELITE
> Veterans/Honor Guard
> (rumored elsewhere from biglou) SC dread w/1-3 bodyguard of other dreads (deathco), takes up a heavy slot too.
> Terminators that are esp. good at teleports (noted in press release text)
> Venerable (Venerable Furioso)
> Scouts? (might end up in Troops or FA; they're fleet, which is interesting.
> Techpriest (incl. special one ordered. Conjecture: the SC will Bless vehicles to move as fast, or else move fast with him in them.)
> 
> TROOPS
> Assault Squad, some # of free p'pistols and two Assault weapons. conjecture: Storm shield option for sgt.
> Tacsquad with Auspex sgt, supercharged rhinos. (conjecture: one Tac can take an LR dedicated; would allow LR's on field given crowding in HS. They want us to buy the special LR pretty bad, right?)
> Conjecture: Cheaper upgrade on Razorback to Heavy flamers/assault cannon.
> Scouts? (with a box set on release this is going to have some push to it, don't know if it will be an abundance or a quality push).
> 
> FA
> Squad with wings (exalted assault sqad) (likely vampire angel aesthetic) will DS, Storm Bolters, S5 sword (frost axe analogue). (conjecture: likely to have an invulnerable save).
> Land Speeder Storm with (at least) fluff on scouts riding to hackzone in it. Possible rule allowing scouts to disembark/assault on turn of landing (I believe that Codex marines can't?). Conjecture: Possible ability to squad up LSS's. Possible rule allowing cerebus launcher to affect other nearby squads.
> Furioso Dread, has fleet, maybe hellhound template projection ability (or upgrade to it).
> (possibility of Baal pred here when unlocked by a character)
> Scout bikers with a (conjectural) heavy flamer option.
> Bikers with a Heavy flamer option, maybe an attack bike with some kind of large template weapon.
> The rumored flying vehicle. I'm very incredulous that this will show up personally, but if it does I call a 'baby thawk' that'll transport tac squads (perhaps only 5/6 models) and have weaponry along the lines of 2 MLs and TLAC. Will definitely have the iconic D-Day landing craft meme-ramp if it does.
> 
> HSUPP
> Fancy Land Raider (with assault cannons?)
> Fancy Devastators with cheap LC, (CONJECTURE) maybe ability to shoot from moving rhino.
> Ironclad Dread (with the push for dreads this will land here, perhaps with an option for a hellhound weapon)
> Baal Pred, possibly with new sponson options or POMS. Possibility of swapping turret w/Assault cannons for a hellhound weapon.
> 
> EDIT: added stuff from this thread to the cognate:
> http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=186717


----------



## Khorothis

Told you there'll be scoring Dreads. :grin:


----------



## Vahouth

darkreever said:


> And what of Lemartes? He is in the grips of it but refuses to let it control him; and instead displays a force of will that allows him to remain himself and still function properly.
> 
> Lemartes is afflicted but remains the same man, the same cannot be said of Mephiston; because even he cannot deny the claim that brother Calistarius is long dead.
> 
> Lemartes shows a will as strong as Mephiston, so no, that alone is not enough in my opinion. Dante is the oldest living space marine still walking in power armour, does that alone mean he is deserving of pages for himself? No.


This is where you are wrong.
Lemartes like any other Blood Angel is resisting the Black Rage.
Those who succumb to the rage, join the Death Company.
Those that survive are aflicted by the Red Thirst and are locked up in the Tower, from where there is no return.
Only one man made it through, Mephiston, who is a living testament to all Blood Angels, and a hope that the Red Thirst can be conquered.
No other member of the Chapter has ever faced the Red Thirst and lived to tell the story.


----------



## darkreever

Regardless, I still believe them focusing on Mephiston and making him out to be the only hope is kind of a travesty to the other characters.

Still though, furious charge for everyone, the possibility of scouts becoming troops again, now that sounds good.


----------



## admirzay12

I think mephiston is special not because of what he did (your right that any other character probably could do it to) but because it means that when (not if) the chapter is taken over by the red-thirst, if they survive, they will have extraordinary psychic abilities and be kick ass as well. Just imagine 1000 Marines that are as strong as termies and can kill you with their minds.
However as this is never, ever going to happen in the game, it gives GW some awesome fluff to play with that will make BA’s look like the god chapter. (Even though they won’t)
With the whole scout thing, to me that sounds really cheese tastic, and if half of that is true then I might call it a day on 40k because they write all this fluff about scouts being new and unexperienced and then make them the best unit?
Hope your wrong (but you probably aren’t)


----------



## darkreever

admirzay12 said:


> I think mephiston is special not because of what he did (your right that any other character probably could do it to) but because it means that when (not if) the chapter is taken over by the red-thirst, if they survive, they will have extraordinary psychic abilities and be kick ass as well. Just imagine 1000 Marines that are as strong as termies and can kill you with their minds.


Wait what? Where are you getting this from?

The Blood Angel Mephiston was borne from, brother Calistarius, was a librarian displaying some exceptional ability. With time, he would have likely reached a similar level of power but the rage and thirst got to him first. (For any wondering, this same Calistarius is the librarian in the latest space hulk set.)


I know I'm a bit out of touch with some of the more recent fluff in certain area's but I honestly don't remember ever hearing something like those who suffer the black rage displaying lots of psychic potential.


----------



## admirzay12

you are correct there but it is said that the red thirst does give you psychic abillities. well really no one knows because the only person to survive it was a librarian, but because of it connection with sanguinius and the fact that it warps your mind i think it would give certain Bonuses to anyone that did survive.


----------



## admirzay12

Lord Mephiston is the Chief Librarian of the Blood Angels. Then known as Brother Calistarius, he was buried under rubble on Armageddon for seven days and seven nights. During this time the Black Rage came upon him and he fought to surpress it. Calistarius' will stayed strong, however, and he emerged from the rubble as Mephiston, The "Lord Of Death". Under Commander Dante he became the Chief Librarian of the Blood Angles, and his right hand man. He is one of only three known survivors of the Black Rage. 

The Reborn Angel 

After Gallio and Vode were both killed by Arkio's loyalists, Mephiston decided that he, not Dante, should go and deal with Arkio. He reasoned that since Mephiston was a psyker, he could detect the taint. Touching down on the Blood Angels shrine-world, Sabien, Mephiston found Arkio and searched him for taint, which he found. He was about to challenge Arkio to a duel when Rafen called out and said that he would fight him. Mephiston looked into Rafen's mind and saw that Rafen had seen a vision of Sanguinius and that he was destined to fight Arkio. After Rafen wounded Arkio and Arkio fled, the corrupted Inquisitor Stele ordered the loyalist Blood Angels and the warriors of the Reborn to attack Mephiston and his entourage. By the time Rafen had defeated the princeling daemon Malfallax, Mephiston's iron will had snapped, and he fell into the Black Rage. Rafen directed the power of the Spear of Telesto at Mephiston himself, breaking the curse.


i think the spear is preatty important here, because it breaks it and not him, so it means that they could _aim_ it at any one. 

(im probably wrong, so feel free to correct me)


----------



## khael

this question may have been answered earlier in this thread, but has anyone else heard that the Dark Angels are suppossed to get a new codex around the same time?


----------



## Katie Drake

khael said:


> this question may have been answered earlier in this thread, but has anyone else heard that the Dark Angels are suppossed to get a new codex around the same time?


It's been refuted. The Dark Angels aren't getting anything. April will belong to the Blood Angels and the Blood Angels alone. GW has no plans to revisit the Dark Angels anytime soon.


----------



## khael

thanks katie


----------



## Vahouth

Some more rumours from B&C



> Yet more fuel for the fire...
> 
> Some box cover layout.
> Its gonna be a big release with no less than 10 boxes!!
> 
> box #1 Exalted: Space Marine, winged jump packs, rapier-like blades, wrist-mounted stormbolters, masks
> 
> box #2 Blood Angels Scouts: Scouts, but very post-apocalyptic feeling - like Fallout or Mad Max - chains, close combat weapons, the complete opposite to the generic neat vanilla scouts
> 
> box #3 Blood Angel Assault Squad: assault marines with BA regalia
> there is a small icon on the right with a Terminator head, Bolter and Rhino silhouette
> 
> box #5 and #6: Death Company: another two boxes with jump packs, one black armor, one red armor, bareheaded, banner, storm shields
> 
> box #7 Tantalus Lander: kind of flying droppod with wings, land raider front, assault cannons under fuselage
> 
> box #8: Victor and Unholt: basic Techmarine and a new creature: a Tech-Hulk (not like the green comic guy but more akin to the World of Warcraft Abominations with
> lots of tech-stuff stitched together - right arm is a four barreled cannon)
> and there are two boxes with Ultramarine art instead of Blood Angel art
> 
> box #9 Venerable Dreadnought
> 
> box #10 Predator


Enjoy:mrgreen:

EDIT: Also Lemartes and Baal Predator unavailable from GW site!


----------



## Winterous

I certainly hope that Venerable Dreadnought is plastic!


----------



## Crimson Shadow

So based on those rumors the Death Company can have Red Armor now? What's the point of that? To hope they "blend in" with the rest of your army?


----------



## Katie Drake

Crimson Shadow said:


> So based on those rumors the Death Company can have Red Armor now? What's the point of that? To hope they "blend in" with the rest of your army?


Sometimes there's not enough time to repaint a warrior's armor before battle.


----------



## deathbringer

Delight...
Im looking forward to the codex... havent got the money to do the army but I will most definitely be reading the codex with deep interest... always had a soft spot for sang's bloody boys.

This may well leave a slot open for necrons or de which is excellent news


----------



## stooge92

can someone explain the rumour of devestators weapons being twin-linked within range of auspex, what exactly does that mean? 
AND
"box #7 Tantalus Lander: kind of flying droppod with wings, land raider front, assault cannons under fuselage" FLYING DROP POD WITH WINGS? but its a land raider? cant wait for the pictures

Mephiston 300pts? wtf is that? Dante is the man. If Mephiston gets eternal warrior (which he should at 300pts), and dante doesnt then that'll be really weird. the 'man' of the army not as strong as the libby?

dreadnought armies are going to be awesome- just hope they all come in plastic


----------



## Vahouth

Some more feed from B&C, posted by billga



> Just as a clarification for the 300 point Meph (and I honestly haven't read all of the posts to know if this was already covered), the 300 point version will have Meph in terminator armor - he'll finally get an invulnerable save. But as per rules, this will eliminate his, and any unit he is attached to, ability to sweep. That is actually a much larger drawback than it sounds, do to the fact that you will be wasting his initiative 7 for sweep checks ohmy.gif
> 
> Edit: Also thought I should mention, that as far as I have been told, there is only 1 Tycho. The three options simply refer to optional weapon loadouts (think back to 3rd Edition when our ICs could take JPs when other ICs had no options). Sounds like Lemartes will be able to foot it or JP it as well for the rhino DC guys still out there (although it looks like DC may be eliminated from many BA armies anyways).
> 
> 2nd Edit: Looks like the "April" date will be April 24 for brick and mortar store release.


----------



## admirzay12

wow, and it might give me a chance to use my SH libby, that model is sweet.


----------



## tu_shan82

It'll be a very sad day when DC are no longer available to Blood Angels armies. The DC is an iconic BA unit, more so than Furiouso Dreadnoughts band Baal Predators, both of which only made it into the army list in 3rd edition, or Assault Squads as troops which is an even newer addition than that. Ijust hyop when GW get around to rewriting the DA in codex in 2020, they don't get rid of DW or RW.


----------



## Winterous

tu_shan82 said:


> It'll be a very sad day when DC are no longer available to Blood Angels armies. The DC is an iconic BA unit, more so than Furiouso Dreadnoughts band Baal Preadators, both of which only made it into the army list in 3rd edition, or Assault Squads as troops which is an even newer addition than that.


Who said they'd be unavailable?
All I've read in this thread is that they'll be an option, not a requirement.


----------



## tu_shan82

My bad I guess I misunderstood.


----------



## Aramoro

I started with Blood Angels all those years ago when I first started, must be 15 now. I have to say I really like the character of the army and I think it's a shame if you do not have to take a Death Company, that really adds a nice unique flavour to the army. 

Personally I'm really looking forward to it, I still have my Dante, Mephiston and Corbulo models from when they came out the first time round. I hope they do keep most of the special rules from the PDF codex. Although i've not played them in 5th ed, swayed by Eldar and Daemons mostly, I'm looking forward to breaking the old models out again. 

Aramoro


----------



## KingOfCheese

Having played with multiple BA players back in 3rd ed, i feel like they were a good casual army, but were indeed slightly overpowered in comparison to vanilla marines.
There were very little drawbacks to the army, yet there were HUGE benefits, and as a result every man and his dog had a BA army.

I would like to see some of the play style from 3rd ed return, overcharged engines, moriar, furious charge, etc, but with the addition of assault marines as troops like in the most recent codex.

However, i think that the points cost should justify their improvements over vanilla marines. Bring back furious charge for all units, but make the models a bit more expensive to justify the added ability.

I really dont want to see a re-release of a spacewolves-style powergaming army with extra abilities plus cheaper points.
Hopefully GW learned their lesson and dont do it again.


----------



## BrotherYorei

tu_shan82 said:


> Please let this be bullshit, it would be a tragedy for GW to discontinue the Dark Angels, as they're one of the most interesting chapters out there.


i dont think they will discontinue DA, but a new codex soon would be unlikely as the current codex came out only 6 months before 5th edition rule book. which means they should have been disigned with that in mind i would think.


----------



## BrotherYorei

Prothor Ironfist said:


> As far as i know they aren't so I doubt he will be but you never know :victory:


ETERNAL WARRIORS(have EW rule)

Marneus Calgar= Chapter Master
Lysandar= Captain
Logan Grimnar= Chapter Master

So why shouldnt Dante (the oldest living Space Marine) have it?


----------



## Winterous

BrotherYorei said:


> So why shouldnt Dante (the oldest living Space Marine) have it?


Er, wouldn't that title fall on Bjorn the Fell-handed?
I mean, the first sentence of his fluff says "Bjorn the Fell-handed is the oldest living warrior in the Imperium."


----------



## BrotherYorei

Winterous said:


> Er, wouldn't that title fall on Bjorn the Fell-handed?
> I mean, the first sentence of his fluff says "Bjorn the Fell-handed is the oldest living warrior in the Imperium."


it would if bjorn were not a dreadnought. i should have added .....that is not a dreadnought to my earlier post.


now for a question not about this quote.

where does the info saying black rage is getting more prevelant come from. i would like a link or book name please so i can read this.


----------



## Crimson Shadow

I believe he's referring to Oldest Living Space Marine not in a Dreadnaught. Slight caveat, but an important one.

EDIT: Ooops, BrotherYorei beat me to the explanation.


----------



## tu_shan82

Also in the 2nd edition AoD codex, there was a Vet Sargent character you could take who was actually the Sargent that was in charge of Dante's scout squad, forget his name though. I'm actually hoping they bring him back in this new codex, as there's a precedent that's been set in the codex's of late with special characters like Telion, Lukas the Trickster and Boss Snickrot (sp?), who are actually squad level upgrades rather than independant characters. Also, I would guess that a lot of the Imperial Custodes would be older than Dante as well.


----------



## Vahouth

tu_shan82 said:


> Also in the 2nd edition AoD codex, there was a Vet Sargent character you could take who was actually the Sargent that was in charge of Dante's scout squad, forget his name though. I'm actually hoping they bring him back in this new codex, as there's a precedent that's been set in the codex's of late with special characters like Telion, Lukas the Trickster and Boss Snickrot (sp?), who are actually squad level upgrades rather than independant characters. Also, I would guess that a lot of the Imperial Custodes would be older than Dante as well.


You mean Sgt Cleutin.


----------



## tu_shan82

Vahouth said:


> You mean Sgt Cleutin.


Yep, that's the guy. I couldn't remember his name and my mother threw out my second edition codexs years ago.


----------



## Prothor Ironfist

BrotherYorei said:


> ETERNAL WARRIORS(have EW rule)
> 
> Marneus Calgar= Chapter Master
> Lysandar= Captain
> Logan Grimnar= Chapter Master
> 
> So why shouldnt Dante (the oldest living Space Marine) have it?


Right so three of them have the rule i didn't notice (Haven't read the SW codex for one) but at the same time the other characters don't have EW. I didn't say he shouldn't have it just that there are doubts that he will since just because he is a chapter master doesn't mean he will automatically warrant it.

Pedro Kantor = Chapter Master
Kor'Sarro Khan= Captain
Shrike= Captain

He might get it he might not that remains to be seen i guess.


----------



## Concrete Hero

tu_shan82 said:


> Also, I would guess that a lot of the Imperial Custodes would be older than Dante as well.


Aye, all of them. Them being thunder warriors and not technically Adeptus Astartes :grin:

And I _could_ see Dante not having EW. What I've read has always described Mephiston to be the furious power of the Chapter, where as Dante is more Old and wise, really playing more of a Librarian role.

It mentions it in those Blood Angels books, the one with the guy with the wings...


----------



## BrotherYorei

i wish people would stop bringing up the horrible books from black library. they are NOT official fluff, therefore they have no place in any rumor talk or actual game discussion.

that is all.


----------



## Underground Heretic

From the Bell of Lost Souls



> RULES:
> Victor and Unholt: An HQ monstrous creature: 1/1/6/4/4/3/4/10/4+, with a Techmarine handler & big assault gun.
> 
> Angels Sanguine Chapter Master Toledo: Rage and Fleet instead of Combat Tactics and Blood Rage.
> 
> Flesh Tearers Chapter Master Seth: Is in...
> 
> Sanguinary High Priest HQ: unit has: W:2 and grants a Rage (Blood Rage??) radius.
> 
> Captain Erasmus Tycho: 3+ Dodge save, Pride special rule and no Blood Rage.
> 
> Up to 8 Dreadnoughts: (2 Named HQ dreads if you play a mix of Flesh Tearers/Blood Angels), 6 normal FOC dreads possible.
> 
> Tantalus Lander: 2 Twin Linked Assault Cannons, TL Plasmagun.
> 
> Guards of the Tower of Amareo: Jump Troops with high I, WS,BS and "Exalted Blades"( Frost axe rules)
> 
> Rhinos are fast: with a "severe damage table"
> 
> New Baal Predator and Venerable dreadnought: with twin close combat weapon options.
> 
> Death Company: lose rending, retain Feel No Pain, Furious Charge, and continue the effects of Furious Charge if they win combat!


----------



## tu_shan82

I like the fact that the codex will contain rules for Seth and Toledo.


----------



## Katie Drake

Hmm, a more severe damage table for Rhinos? That's not good...

Very happy to see Seth included, though. :good: Let's hope he kicks ass!


----------



## Concrete Hero

BrotherYorei said:


> i wish people would stop bringing up the horrible books from black library. they are NOT official fluff, therefore they have no place in any rumor talk or actual game discussion.
> 
> that is all.


And I wish people would capitalise their Is and use proper punctuation. Ideal worlds eh?

So you disregard every book they've published because its not Codex fluff?


----------



## Katie Drake

Concrete Hero said:


> So you disregard every book they've published because its not Codex fluff?


No, just the shitty ones. :grin:


----------



## Concrete Hero

Katie Drake said:


> No, just the shitty ones. :grin:


Bah, you just don't like them because they enforce just how weak willed the Blood Angels really are 

If they do get Furious Charge I'd like to see them have Rage as well, otherwise they're basically just World Eaters... Though I'm interested to see how this books plays out, I may have found a better Counts As Codex for my Pre Heresy Planet Munchers


----------



## pathwinder14

More from BOLS:
MINIS:

Exalted Assault Squad: Winged jump packs, rapier-like blades, wrist-mounted stormbolters, masks.

Blood Angels Scouts: Scouts, but very post-apocalyptic feeling - like Fallout or Mad Max - chains, close combat weapons, the complete opposite to the generic neat vanilla scouts.

Blood Angel Assault Squad: Assault marines with Blood Angel regalia. (possible Melta pistol bits seen here).

Twin Death Company releases: Two boxes with jump packs, one black armor, one red armor, bareheaded, banner, storm shields.

Tantalus Lander: kind of flying droppod with wings, land raider front, assault cannons under fuselage

Victor and Unholt: basic Techmarine and a new creature: a Tech-Hulk stitched together from a bunch of techno gear-(right arm is a four barreled cannon)

Venerable Dreadnought

Predator (with Baal variant parts)


----------



## Vahouth

Rumours refinement from B&C:



> [quote name='Linksys' date='Jan 15 2010, 05:56 PM' post='2248988']
> 
> 
> 
> Victor and Unholt: An HQ monstrous creature: 1/1/6/4/4/3/4/10/4+, with a Techmarine handler & big assault gun.
> 
> 
> 
> I have to check back but I guess it is right. And don't worry about the low BS, it can use the BS of Victor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Angels Sanguine Chapter Master Toledo: Rage and Fleet instead of Combat Tactics and Blood Rage.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually that is the special rule of Seth. Toledo makes the whole army replace red fury (I guess thats what he means by Blood Rage) and combat tactics with stubborn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sanguinary High Priest HQ: unit has: W:2 and grants a Rage (Blood Rage??) radius.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Quite the opposite. Blood Angels in 12" may ignore Red Fury.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Captain Erasmus Tycho: 3+ Dodge save, Pride special rule and no Blood Rage.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is 3+ armour save and 4+ invulnerable save. He and his squad are not subject to red fury.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guards of the Tower of Amareo: Jump Troops with high I, WS,BS and "Exalted Blades"( Frost axe rules)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They are called Exalted. However in their entry you can read that they are the guards of the tower and it is their task to keep the horrors inside at bay.
Click to expand...

Enjoy:mrgreen:


----------



## Talos

I am liking the new rumours. At first I thought we just get a small update to bring us into line with other 5th edition SM codex. I did not expect so many new units.
I have been slowly making a Flesh Tearers army, so far I have 20 tac marines, 3 rhinos, 1 razorback, 2 chaplains and some death company. Think I will lay off building the rest of it till this codex is out as its changing quite a few things and bring in new units. I am glad my death company arnt painted so I can just paint them as normal ASM as with out rending I suppose we will be allowed powerfists etc in our DC so will have to make some more models.

I was just about to commission someone to make me a Seth model but if we are getting a offical model think I will wait.
I am glad Flesh Tearers are getting some love but I reckon we will see alot of them now, was nice to be a niche army.
With Seth getting a model I hope they bring back Flesh Tearer shoulderpads.

Edit: I really dont understand the red and black armoured Death company as you could just paint them how you like, so what makes the two boxes different.

For the massive rumour shutdown GW has we are getting quite a few rumours. Its a pretty the book comes out just after my easter break so I wont be able to buy or paint any of these new models. Till my summer break.


----------



## Capt.Al'rahhem

pathwinder14 said:


> Tantalus Lander: kind of flying droppod with wings, land raider front, assault cannons under fuselage


I guess the SM got jealous of the IG's Valkyrie and we know GW gives them everything they want.


----------



## Lord of the Night

BrotherYorei said:


> i wish people would stop bringing up the horrible books from black library. they are NOT official fluff, therefore they have no place in any rumor talk or actual game discussion.
> 
> that is all.


They are official, everything in them is canon.


----------



## Stella Cadente

Katie Drake said:


> No, just the shitty ones. :grin:


so that is all of them :biggrin:


----------



## Katie Drake

Lord of the Night said:


> They are official, everything in them is canon.


Nay, it's actually the opposite.

I'm worried about Seth giving the entire army Rage and Fleet. I know the Flesh Tearers are supposed to be the absolute epitome of a pure assault force, but I can't stand the idea of my entire army freaking out and rushing at the closest enemy unit that they can see all the time. What fun is that? It'll be like playing the World Eaters from the 3.5E Chaos Codex, where the army basically played itself and you just pushed the models around.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Lord of the Night said:


> They are official, everything in them is canon.


They are official yes, however that means zilch, zero, nada, nil.
The thing to remember here is that what was official last week may have been retconned this week :shok:


----------



## Vahouth

Again some news from Linksys posted on B&C:



> The Eviscerator is a two handed powerfist. May reroll to hit against enemies with T>5.
> 
> Red Fury: Unit must take a leadership test if enemy is in 12" or they are subject to rage USR. Exalted, Baal Initiates and Chaplains are immune.
> 
> *QUOTE
> Would like to see Chaplain give a like 12 inch immunity bubble but even without it if my assault squads are within 12 inch they are gonna be charging anyways.*
> 
> They get something better. They don't sooth the rage, they channel it.
> 
> *QUOTE
> Do you have to charge the nearest unit or can you charge any unit?*
> 
> I don't know for sure but you can check your rulebook for the actual rule. If I recall correctly you only have to charge.
> 
> A little bit of background: another main theme of the codex is that the curse is becoming stronger. In reaction to this there is a kind of philosophical schism inside the chapter - nothing like civil war but an ongoing dispute. The Sanguinians try to adhere to the principle of their primarch and take the curse as a test of character. They try to overcome the affects and stay as civil as possible. Dante is the leader of this faction and it is the more influential. The Faustians however try to use the curse. They believe it was a gift of their dying Primarch to his children, that he gave them his strength. But it was wasted for millenia by overly hesitant chapter masters. The Faustians were a minor group and only prominent inside the Flesh Tearer Chapter. The ascend of the Lord of Death however sparked a fast growth of this group. Mephiston was the living proof that the black rage was not a curse but a only locked door on the way to the full potential of the Blood Angels. Sanguinary Priest Faustus is the most influential member. He is the lord of the tower of Amareo and has studied the black rage for centuries. The successor chapter have similiar groups. The only exceptions are the Flesh Tearers and Angels Sanguine. The former are all Faustians, the latter all Sanguinians.
> 
> *QUOTE
> just 1 question is are old special chaplain in the new codex?*
> 
> Yes, he is there, but the rules are not very impressive. He must join the Death Company and has only one special rule over a normal Chaplain. His Company won't lose Furious charge under any circumstances. So is is technically a S4(5), I4(5) unit. His mask gives him the psionic power Hypnotizing Gaze without test. But his background is interesting. He is a famous Faustian and rival of Dante.
> 
> *
> QUOTE
> oh another question, is that Faustus guy gunna be a character? and if so what will his abilities look like?*
> 
> He is a Sanguinary Priest, but he is not dedicated to find a cure for the curse. He does his research in the tower of Amareo and nobody knows what he does in there.
> He has no anti-red thirst rule like the other Priests. He can gives his unit some boni. No jump pack.
> 
> *QUOTE
> and ALSO will VAS still be in the army or are Exalted replacing them (or are Exalted replacing honour guard for that matter)*
> 
> There are no veterans but the Honour Guard has a veteran statline. And there are almost two pages with pictures just for them. It seems that they have lots of options like stormshields, perdition pistols, banners, special weapons, chalices, chainaxes
> 
> *QUOTE
> Victor and Unholt - Sounds like a 0-1 Thunderfire equivalent and I've heard a further rumour that this is an HQ choice (!). HQ just doesn't add up as it would take away a more valuable option from your HQ choices. I would guess this would be a Heavy ugrade character much like Marbo as an Elite.*
> 
> Dunno where they are in the FOC
> 
> *
> QUOTE
> Tyco - Still in and revamped (?). Would be happy to keep him on the basis that he's now useful. Thankfully no DC/Dread nonsense.*
> 
> You can chose one special rule: Pride, Hatred or Rage. No Dreadnougt, but you can name your Deathcompany-Dread Tycho if you want.
> 
> *QUOTE
> Tantalus Lander - This has got me really sitting on the fence. I really like the sound of something like this but then I can't help asking what happens to our normal LR for example. Not knowing troop capacity and whether Termies can be delivered is the crux but even so, another assault delivery vehicle seems a bit much. Equally, why BA and Successor specific? From a GW sales standpoint, can they hope to turn a profit on a unit that covers say 4-5 very specific Chapters and none of them Codex, even with both existing BA players who will upgrade their armies and new players who will start from scratch? Would this be another Heavy choice or a Dedi-Trans? If Dedicated is that the death of Rhinos for BAs - again points will decide viability in numbers.*
> 
> They are used by all chapters, but Blood Angels are known to use them more often. An imperial scribe made a mistake and classified the Tantalus as Thunderhawk during Vandires rule (whoever this is ^^) and this mistake spread throughout all imperial institutions. So in many cases, where there is a report of a Thunderhawk planetfall, the Space Marines actually used Tarantulas.
> 
> *QUOTE
> rhinos - Severe Damage Table... is that for us presumably or for the targets we end up ramming?*
> 
> They are fast, but if they more than 12" they count as open topped and if they are immobilized they are destroyed and scatter 3D6".
> 
> *QUOTE
> DC - Losing Rending. I've always liked the way DC can take down a lot of top end stuff (Tyrants, LRs, Squiggoths even) and losing Rending feels like that removes that option. I personally think it takes away some of their character if true.*
> 
> There are pictures of power axe and power fist wielding Death company.
> 
> *QUOTE
> Just some of my queries and questions really, and I'm surprised at how much "information" is abundant not even a week after the official release notice. It seems far too much to me at this early stage, which reinforces the argument that a lot of it is blue sky wish-listing. I would however like to know what's happening with Lemartes and Chaplains for one.*
> 
> This time, something went terrible wrong with GWs information policy. I don't believe it was a voluntary move to publish parts of the codex.
> 
> *QUOTE
> I. Can you give us any details on the Lord of Death? Is he Terminator Armored, normal Armored? Are there two versions? What's his statline like?*
> 
> Power Armour and old mini. Maybe there is a new one, but the miniature in the color part is the old one.
> 
> *QUOTE
> II. What can you tell us about Blood Angels Psychic Powers? I like to play a list with an active Librarian, so any information you could provide would be much appreciated.*
> 
> 6 powers: Quickening, Might of Heroes, Darkness, Blood Stasis, Sanguinius Grace, Transfixing Gaze
> 
> *QUOTE
> Interesting to see that they haven't stayed with Swallow's name for the Angels Sanguine Chapter Master, and I'm rather excited about him... any more details would be wonderful.*
> 
> powerarmour, sword, stormshield, no jump pack
> fearless, his army has stubborn and no red fury, Chaptermasters don't have orbital bombardment btw!
> Exalted in his army may reroll hit & run roll.


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

This Blood Angels Codex sounds really interesting. Exalted Assualt Squads effectively replace Honour Guard, while Blood Angels Honour Guard seem to be a replace Vanguard and Command Squads. This gives the Blood Angels a Codex-following feel, yet remaining unique at the same time.

As for the Tantalus, it made me think of the 'Stormbirds' refered too in the Horus Heresy Series, though I think they might have been larger than the Thunderhawk.


----------



## Katie Drake

Apparently Corbulo is gone.

Oh well. Never liked him very much anyway.  His model is (in my opinion) hideous, and it's hard to respect an Independent Character that doesn't ignore armor saves.




> As for the Tantalus, it made me think of the 'Stormbirds' refered too in the Horus Heresy Series, though I think they might have been larger than the Thunderhawk.


Yeah, Stormbirds were much larger than Thunderhawks. The Tantalus is, from what I've heard, the same thing that Forge World is making a model for to feature alongside the Raven Guard in Imperial Armor 8 (or is it 9?).


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Katie Drake said:


> Yeah, Stormbirds were much larger than Thunderhawks. The Tantalus is, from what I've heard, the same thing that Forge World is making a model for to feature alongside the Raven Guard in Imperial Armor 8 (or is it 9?).


9 I think. 

Good to know Stormbirds are better and its also good to know that the vehicle *is* for other Chapters as well, one less thing to be worried about taking Blood Angels away from the Codex way of War.


----------



## Vahouth

And the feed continues:



> *QUOTE
> so is the Tantalus Lander definitely there? and what rules do you know about
> *
> fast, skimmer, 13/11/10, no scout!, deep strike, transport,
> Jump Troops may assault after disembarking, dangerous terrain test
> 
> *QUOTE
> Linksys, the information you've provided is great. If there's more fluff you can pump out to us that'd be great, regarding the Chapter as a whole or about each Chapter Master.*
> 
> There are only three Chapter Masters: Toledo, Seth and Dante. Seth and Dante are relly straight forward. Dante is a Sanguinian, Seth a Faustian. Toledo is also a Sanguinian, a very strict, unforgiving and solemn man. Tries to push his chapter to adhere the Codex Astartes. Is tasked with maintaining the Exalted and therefore most of them are from his chapter.
> 
> *QUOTE
> The exalted seem interesting models, but I'd have to re-model them with beakies to fit them in my army, that's possibly gonna get costly. Only the Honour Guard and no further Veteran options ? I surely hope that the RAS get to wield melta guns or I'm hot out of luck with all my models and will end up not being able to field half my mini's.*
> 
> There is a picture of an Honour Guard with melter and one with flamer.
> 
> New fluff:
> There are two scouts units. Blood Angel Scouts and Scout Initiates. The Initiates are vanilla scouts (with bolters in the art, with sniper and shotgun in the photos). They have a special rule wich makes them scoring. The BA Scouts are like the old metal scouts, really disorganized, with injectors and so on. They look really mean. Fleet of foot for them. The story is, that the Blood Angel Scouts are pretty fresh recruits from the dystopian world Baal. The blood rituals exaggerate their natural savage behaviour even further. Some are even driven into a blood frenzy. Few survive this initiation procedure and are tasked with more sophisticated missions than messing up the enemy lines in a big brawl.
> There is no Cloak in the wargear or Scout section!
> 
> *QUOTE
> Seems odd that two of the new characters have no jump packs. So this means we'll still have to start creating generic HQ options if we want them jumping around with the rest of our armies ?
> Maybe there is an option in the armylist. But even without there are enough Jump Troops for everyone in the codex.
> *
> 4 Jump Pack entries:
> Honour Guard
> Death Company
> Exalted
> Assault Squad
> 
> And for the Dreadnougt entries even more options:
> Moriar (venerable Death Company dread)
> Absolutus (double saw masscre, but no model)
> Venerable Dreadnougt (FW one in the color section)
> Dreadnougt (Death Company special rule: ignores shaken and stunned results)
> Furioso


----------



## Col. Schafer

Serriously? Since 5th came out we have:

-Space marines
-Imperial Guard
-Space wolves
-Nids
-Blood angels

So, in the first 5 codex's of the edition we have 4/5 imperial armies, 3 of witch are space marines? Could at least have done some inquisition...

That said, it seems like it will have some ok stuff, and its not that I actualy mind so many space marines, it just strikes me as a bit off...


----------



## Katie Drake

Clearly you're not familiar with GW's business model then. 

But really, let's just keep this about the Blood Angels. We don't need people to start bitching about how the Dark Eldar need an update here.


----------



## Concrete Hero

I'm actually really starting to sound the like sound of this Codex. Count as Pre Heresy World Eaters for the win :grin:


----------



## Katie Drake

Concrete Hero said:


> I'm actually really starting to sound the like sound of this Codex. Count as Pre Heresy World Eaters for the win :grin:


I'm starting to understand how Space Wolf players feel. The only difference is that it doesn't bother me.


----------



## jesse

after following this thread for 2 days i feel slightly constipated from all the cheese ive taken in.  im definatly excited to see GW make a non PDF blood angels codex. the sound of the landy thingy is really interesting to me and im already jonesin to see a model for it


----------



## DaafiejjXD

I'm really excited about the scouts, as I'm making a ragtag IG army, some post apocalyptic scout models would make nice material to use ^^. Are there any pics of the units yet, or do we have to wait?


----------



## BrotherYorei

Col. Schafer said:


> Serriously? Since 5th came out we have:
> 
> -Space marines
> -Imperial Guard
> -Space wolves
> -Nids
> -Blood angels
> 
> So, in the first 5 codex's of the edition we have 4/5 imperial armies, 3 of witch are space marines? Could at least have done some inquisition...
> 
> That said, it seems like it will have some ok stuff, and its not that I actualy mind so many space marines, it just strikes me as a bit off...


you forgot orks


----------



## Winterous

BrotherYorei said:


> you forgot orks


They weren't 5th ed.


----------



## BrotherYorei

Winterous said:


> They weren't 5th ed.


yes they are. last year was their new release.


----------



## Winterous

BrotherYorei said:


> yes they are. last year was their new release.


I think you'll find that it was released before 5th ed.


----------



## jesse

what about daemons? it was released before 5th edition, but it was written for it


----------



## Winterous

jesse said:


> what about daemons? it was released before 5th edition, but it was written for it


Doesn't mean they're a 5th ed codex, just that they had 5th ed in mind during their writing.


----------



## tu_shan82

Orks, Eldar, DA, CSM and Daemons were all 4th edition with 5th in mind.


----------



## BrotherYorei

Winterous said:


> I think you'll find that it was released before 5th ed.


orks were released after IG last year. the copywrite date in the codex is 2009. 5th ed came out in 2008 july.


----------



## Katie Drake

BrotherYorei said:


> orks were released after IG last year. the copywrite date in the codex is 2009. 5th ed came out in 2008 july.


No, that's incorrect. The only reason there'd be a later date is because the Ork book is in its second printing. Orks was released in late 4th edition.


----------



## BrotherYorei

WOW! im surprised to see so many people on this forum who dont keep up with other armies besides the ones they play.


----------



## Winterous

BrotherYorei said:


> WOW! im surprised to see so many people on this forum who dont keep up with other armies besides the ones they play.


Baha, and what the hell do you mean by that, boy?


----------



## Concrete Hero

BrotherYorei said:


> WOW! im surprised to see so many people on this forum who dont keep up with other armies besides the ones they play.


And I can't believe you actually think Orks came out after IG. Seriously, Orks came out before 5th Edition, the Guard aren't even that old...


----------



## Baron Spikey

Well from the release of the Orks Codex the progression has gone as following:

-Orks
-Chaos Daemons
(5th Edition)
-Space Marines
-Imperial Guard
-Space Wolves
-Tyranids


----------



## Lord of the Night

Now Blood Angels after that. Hopefully Dark Eldar and Inquisition are next.


----------



## DaafiejjXD

The inquisition are fine as they are, allies for my IG. When the new 'dex comes this all will be over, and then no more GK termies in my force:no:...So I don't mind


----------



## Katie Drake

DaafiejjXD said:


> The inquisition are fine as they are, allies for my IG. When the new 'dex comes this all will be over, and then no more GK termies in my force:no:...So I don't mind


It just means that it'll be time to pull out the Ogryns instead is all. It's not so bad.


----------



## BrotherYorei

orks were after IG last spring


----------



## Catpain Rich

BrotherYorei said:


> orks were after IG last spring


All from Uk White Dwarfs:
WD353 - New IG released
WD354 - Empire campaign/battle reports, no mention of orks
WD355 - Planetstrike released, no orks
WD356 - IG talked about again eg tactics, no orks
WD357 - Space Hulk released, no orks
WD358 - Space Wolves released, no orks
WD359 - Skaven released, no orks
WD360 - Fortress of Redemption released, no orks
WD361 - Tyranids released, no orks

Feel free to check these yourself.

You are quite obviously referring to the second wave of orks that came out in January (Or Janu-WAAAGH!-ry). Can we stop talking about when Orks were released and get back on to the actual topic, please?


----------



## jesse

where in the world did you get that crap dude? orks came out before fifth edition


----------



## Catpain Rich

jesse said:


> where in the world did you get that crap dude? orks came out before fifth edition


If you are talking about me then I got it from the Uk white dwarfs (obviously). If yours don't match then it's because you're getting the US one :grin:.


----------



## Winterous

jesse said:


> where in the world did you get that crap dude? orks came out before fifth edition


He was saying that no, Orks were not released after IG as what's-his-name said.


----------



## Catpain Rich

Winterous said:


> He was saying that no, Orks were not released after IG as what's-his-name said.


I see, when i replied he hadn't added the last sentence. Apologies


----------



## Underground Heretic

I found this tidbit over on BOLS Lounge and thought you might want to know. The changes to the FOC are going to make BA an interesting army to play against. The little bit about the Tantalus makes me wonder if they are going to break the rule about jump infantry being able to embark in transports.



> From *Bigred on BOLS Lounge*
> The latest word:
> 
> Force Organization Chart
> 
> Blood Angel FOC is divergant from the Ultramarine one:
> 
> -Dreadnoughts are heavy support.
> 
> -Furioso Dreads with droppods are fast attack.
> 
> -Twin scout entries are both elites, but one is scoring.
> 
> -Only dedicated ground transport is the Rhino (Razorbacks are out)
> 
> -Assault Squad and Tactical Squad are troops.
> 
> -Honour Guard can be troops if fielded with Dante.
> 
> -Jump pack units are in every FOC category except heavy support and HQ:
> 
> --Assault Squad - troops
> 
> --Honour Guard - elites
> 
> --Exalted - fast attack
> 
> Death Company is 0-1 and doesn't need a slot in the FOC
> 
> Units Rules
> 
> Tantalus Lander is a dedicated transport for everything in the army except tanks, Land Speeders and Exalted. Its weaponry is: 2 twin-linked assault cannons, 1 twin-linked special weapon.
> 
> Land Raider: Redeemer, Crusader and Standard
> 
> Terminator sergeants can get close combat wargear. There is a Terminator upgrade to allow shooting in an enemy phase.
> 
> Exalted: 4/4/4(5)/4/1/5/1+1/10/3+, jump troops, hit & run, furious charge, no red fury/combat tactics, power armor, stormbolter, power weapon, bolt pistol, no options, no transports.
> 
> Quite angelic: masterfully crafted slim armor, jump packs, mechanical wings, masks, long hair.
> 
> Named Characters
> 
> Erasmus: Furious charge, digital weapons (rending), master crafted combi melta: 18" S:8 AP:1 Assault 1, melta, reroll to hit, 4+ ward save, can chose one set of special rules:
> 
> -squad ignores red fury
> -red fury and preferred enemy
> -rage and feel no pain
> 
> Mephiston: 7/7/5/5/3/7/4/10/2+, FnP, Fearless, Eternal Warrior, Fleet, 2 psychic powers per turn.
> 
> More potent versions of Might of heroes, Transfixing Gaze and Blood Stasis powers:
> 
> The gun of Victor's servitor is 36" S:6 AP:6 Assault6
> 
> Psychic Powers
> 
> Quickening: Infantry moves as beasts, jump troops and walkers gain fleet.
> 
> Blood Stasis: 5" vortex of blood in base contact. Enemy models count as being in difficult terrain, and suffer one wound if they try to move and any of the distance dice shows a 1, Mephiston: can cast it in close combat centered on himself, and enemies attacking with a 1 suffer a wound.
> 
> Might of Heroes: one model in squad gets +D3 attacks, Mephiston: can cast it on himself.
> 
> Primarchs Grace: Squad may reroll dangerous terrain tests.
> 
> Transfixing Gaze: Target model must take a leadership roll off or not able to attack librarian, Mephiston: not able to attack any model.
> 
> Living Darkness: A template which blocks line of sight.
> 
> Fluff
> 
> Background: mainly Blood Angels and 4 successor chapters with one page each:
> 
> -Blood Consuls
> 
> -Angels Sanguine
> 
> -Flesh Tearers


----------



## Captain Lachesis

death company 0-1?
So, you don't HAVE to have a death company unit in this version of the blood angels?
i am wondering if we will pay them normally each one like a normal squad and not having them being produced by the number of other units.


----------



## Katie Drake

Hmm, a few new things here. I'm _really_ surprised to see that Razorbacks won't be included. I'd be annoyed too, but thankfully I have the pieces to turn my Razorback into a Predator with zero effort.

Dreadnoughts going back into Heavy Support is interesting as well. It'll certainly cut down on competition for the Elite slots, which sound like they're going to be pretty full most games. Honor Guard, Terminators, Furioso Dreadnoughts (without transports) and both types of Scouts.

All in all, pretty interesting stuff. I'm curious to hear more about the Lander - I heard its armor is like a Predator's, but I'd very much like details on its points cost and transport capacity.

Ah well. Time to start the waiting game.


----------



## Underground Heretic

Ask and you shall RECEIVE! (From B&C via BOLS Lounge)



> Tantalus Lander
> Transports 16,8,5 or 1 Model depending on type. (the thinking is 16 power armour, 8 jump packs, 5 terminators, or 1 Dread.)
> Two Assault cannons and heavy flamers (/Plasma Guns)
> Fast, skimmer, 13/11/10, no scout!, deep strike, transport


----------



## fett14622

I wonder how many points the Tantalus Lander will be.

Also I hope you can take more than 10 SM in a RAS so you can fill up the Tantalus Lander if you wanted to.


----------



## Crimson Shadow

I'm betting the 16 power-armour marines rule is more for Black Templar armies. As currently I believe they're the only marines who can have a squad larger than 10. One of these many many posts mentioned that the Tantalus is for all armies, they're just releasing it with BA as they are the most prevalent users. Kind of like the LR Crusader when it first came out. It was created by the Black Templars, but was "gaining popularity" with other Chapters.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Or maybe it for use with the Death Company Squad you can have- they could potentially be able to have more than 10 men in their squad right?


----------



## Katie Drake

Baron Spikey said:


> Or maybe it for use with the Death Company Squad you can have- they could potentially be able to have more than 10 men in their squad right?


It's possible. It's also possible that the Scout Initiates are able to form larger units than is usual. Also, Space Wolf Blood Claws can form units of up to 15 strong, which is perfect if there's a Wolf Guard or character attached to the unit. Personally I'm skeptical about how all of the other Chapters are going to get access to the Tantalus... I figure they'll just publish its rules in one of the Imperial Armor books and allow any Chapter to use it, but since practically nobody allows Imperial Armor rules as is, you'll only really see Blood Angel armies using it since it'll be in their actual Codex.


----------



## Sanguinary Dan

I'm getting awfully skeptical about some/most of these rumors. So many of them are the typical over-the-top crap that comes from somebody seeing a wish and cross posting it as gospel.

The Exalted are the ones that give me the biggest shudder when I read their description. Rapiers? Really? On metal figs? They'll either be thick enough to pass for firehoses or just the sort of weedy little stick that bends back and forth till it snaps from metal fatigue. That and the whole "Phantom of the Opera" vibe I get from the description makes me ill. Masks, winged JPs and long flowing hair?uke:

I think I'll just keep looking for that doc to put me in a medical coma till April. That way I won't have to try and filter the scoop from the poop. k:


----------



## Sethis

The Blood Angels have always been far more ornate than the other chapters, due to living longer (something to do with their geneseed) and having the time to master art as well as warfare.

They cannot put anything in a non-Forgeworld codex that lets you get a Turn 1 assault. It would just break the game for Guard/Tau players. Being able to assault when you deep strike is currently limited to one unit (who cannot drop-pod), and that's the way it should stay.

In order to make them more assaulty, they'll have faster Rhinos (which we've seen) and some retarded sounding lander thing. I'm sorry, but I don't see a big fuck-off flying Land Raider with wings as a positive step for anyone.

Faustians? Are you kidding me? Can we PRETEND to have a LITTLE originality here? I mean, at all? I want to stab whoever had that wonderful fucking idea. Next thing we know the Black Templars will have a Crusader called Ahab that has preferred enemy against aquatic monstrous creatures...

A viable Honour Guard unit would be nice, currently a Command Squad is actually better than an Honour Guard, due to the ability to have FnP and being far more cost effective. Units with wings instead of Jump Packs would be kinda-alright... Uncertain how they would explain it in the fluff, but they'd make lovely conversion pieces for my Seraphim.

The rest of it is fairly "meh". New Predator with viable sponsons and a hull that LOOKS like AV13 would be nice. Plastic Ven Dread will make the other power armoured players jump about as well.

It'll have a few weeks of "Look how OP we are!" until people work out how to deploy correctly.


----------



## IntereoVivo

Sethis said:


> Faustians? Are you kidding me? Can we PRETEND to have a LITTLE originality here? I mean, at all? I want to stab whoever had that wonderful fucking idea. Next thing we know the Black Templars will have a Crusader called Ahab that has preferred enemy against aquatic monstrous creatures...


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

That made my night. +rep for you. And I am officially naming my LR 'Ahab'.


----------



## BrotherYorei

I have been talking to some friends and they think a rapier is what they use in fencing. For those of you out there who may think this as well, here are some pics. (this came from a conversation about the new Exhalted rumors.)

This is a rapier:
http://www.digital-eel.com/scans/images/swords_rapier_big.gif

This is a fencing foil:
http://www.lynchs.com/images/1590.jpg



also, i was wondering what the comment sethis had about the faustians rule was about. i havnt read the black templars rules.


----------



## Kale Hellas

a rapier is a Renaissance era European dueling sword, they seem to almost always have an intricate hand guard and the blade can be one or two sided.


----------



## Crimson Shadow

I wonder if by rapier they're actually referring to a sabre (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/MuseeMarine-sabreOfficer-p1000451.jpg). Would be easier to model, and wouldn't have to be _quite_ as thin.


----------



## Kale Hellas

a rapier would make sense for the blood angels because of their love for art, and its a weapon that takes more skill and finesse than a combat blade or chain sword where both of those look cumbersome and large. they will probably make a sword that looks like the one the vampire lord with a wing or that slaaneshi warhammer fantasy special character has.


----------



## Sethis

The problem with a Rapier is that it works well on men.

Poking a 1cm diameter hole in Orks, Nidz, Daemons, Other Marines, Battlesuits, Vehicles, Bikers and Yarrick will do nothing but piss them off.

Style +1
Actual practical fighting value -16


----------



## Khorothis

Pretty much what Sethis said. Blood Angels are called BLOOD Angels because they enjoy SPILLING GUTS for the love of God! And just how would you react when a huge red armoured metal mountain points a pigsticker at you and yells "En garde!"? Insant Death unless you roll a successful Ld test, and it goes past Eternal Warrior because its not from a wound caused but the sheer ridiculousness of the whole thing.
So no... just no... I'm going to have nightmares with that tonight, and I hope that whoever made this up is going to have a MURDEROUS diarrhea for the rest of the week... Seriously... *mutter-mutter*


----------



## Kale Hellas

its a blood angel they dont even really need a weapon they can beat you to death with their helmet. (i now have a conversion idea)


----------



## jesse

Catpain Rich said:


> I see, when i replied he hadn't added the last sentence. Apologies


 yeah sorry bout that. when i saw what i posted i was like "wait thats not right" so i fixed it. my sincerest apologies for the confusion. back on topic, im really hoping that the lander thingy has some kind of drawback, but otherwise it looks kind of awesome!


----------



## Crimson Shadow

I have to assume this "lander" will function more like a skimmer, read Falcon or Valkyrie, and less like a flyer, read Thunderhawk. If that's the case then it won't be as big a deal for everyone to adjust to.


----------



## flankman

i'm sure its just a skimmer and well predator armor isnt that hard to go through but then again i play an army with oblits and another with str 10 ap 1 lance


----------



## tu_shan82

Khorothis said:


> And just how would you react when a huge red armoured metal mountain points a pigsticker at you and yells "En garde!"?



This Sir had me in stitches as I conjured up the mental image to go along with it. It's going in my sig and have some rep for your trouble as well.


----------



## Vahouth

Here are some more info from Linksys @ BnC:



> I have the art of all the entries and the color section. I've spotted the following new models in the color section:
> 
> Venerable Dread/Furioso: like the Forgeworld Horus Heresy Dread but with two Close Combat weapons
> 
> Exalted: red armour, jumping poses, wings and jump packs, stombolters, golden masks, long flowing hair, very angelic, thin elegant blades
> 
> Death Company: all without helmets, running, angry faces, big weapons like axes or power swords
> 
> Assault Squad: some jumping legs - tunic touches ground, some running or leaping, blood angel symbols, breastplates with winged drop of blood, there is one marine with a shroud over his left arm like a matador, sergeant with fanged sword
> 
> Seth: running and slashing with Eviscerator, normal Power armour
> 
> Honour Guard: the same as Assault squad but more details: muscled breastplates, engraved helmets, perdition pistols, grail, injectors, standard, some with golden, some with red helmets, stormshield with blood drop, mix of elegant and brutal close combat weapons
> 
> Rhino: one door with angel holding a scroll on it, front with blood angel symbol
> 
> Terminators: chapter smybol on shoulder, one sergeant with cloak over shoulder, one sergeant with striped cloak, fanged sword, stormshield with angel on it, one is kneeling and ripping the ground open, another one has an auspex in his powerfist, very dynamic
> 
> Tactical Marines: backpack with cherub heads, bolter with blood drop, sergeant banner with wing
> 
> Tantalus, Victor: I 've already described these
> 
> old ones: Dante, Sanguinary Priest (Corbulo model), Mephiston, Moriar
> 
> I don't know where the descriptions of Toledo and Fautus came from. There are no pictures of them.





> I have to pop some bubbles:
> The Tantalus only allows for jump pack squads to assault after moving or deepstriking. Everything else disembarks as normal. It's not possible to assault with a Dreadnought or Mephiston out of a moving Tantalus.
> 
> The transport capacity is 16 power armour or 5 bikes or 1 Dreadnought. Terminators, servitors and jump packs take up two slots, attack bikes take up two bike slots.


Enjoy!:mrgreen:


----------



## Vanchet

I had a quick flick through the upcoming White Dwarf I am jumping in excitement as they have said of a Furioso Librarian (Yes a Librarian in a Dreadnought XD)


----------



## Winterous

Vanchet said:


> I had a quick flick through the upcoming White Dwarf I am jumping in excitement as they have said of a Furioso Librarian (Yes a Librarian in a Dreadnought XD)


O_O
Somehow I think Blood Angels will have an option to do an all Dreadnought army, or at least a largely Dreadnought army


----------



## Bindi Baji

Winterous said:


> O_O
> Somehow I think Blood Angels will have an option to do an all Dreadnought army


an all dreadnought army?, what a strange thought


----------



## bishop5

> Terminators: chapter smybol on shoulder, one sergeant with cloak over shoulder, one sergeant with striped cloak, fanged sword, stormshield with angel on it, one is kneeling and ripping the ground open, another one has an auspex in his powerfist, very dynamic


These are the freakin' Space Hulk models...


----------



## fett14622

Winterous said:


> O_O
> Somehow I think Blood Angels will have an option to do an all Dreadnought army, or at least a largely Dreadnought army


I would have to agree with you on this one. 

1: it goes along with BA fluff, keeping their maries alive longer.
2: also giving BA that unique to there dex

:victory:


----------



## Khorothis

Several pages before there was news of a special character that makes Dreads scoring, and they said it a couple times that the Angels will have much more Dreads than other Chapters. So I've no idea why are you so surprised.

Whoa, wait a sec, did I just read "thin elegant blades" over there? In the grimdark, MC filled world of 40K? ... ... ...
brb nerd rage


----------



## Winterous

Bindi Baji said:


> an all dreadnought army?, what a strange thought





fett14622 said:


> I would have to agree with you on this one.
> 
> 1: it goes along with BA fluff, keeping their maries alive longer.
> 2: also giving BA that unique to there dex
> 
> :victory:





Khorothis said:


> Several pages before there was news of a special character that makes Dreads scoring, and they said it a couple times that the Angels will have much more Dreads than other Chapters. So I've no idea why are you so surprised.


Yeah, since they get Dreadnoughts, Furioso Dreadnoughts, more than likely Death Company Dreadnoughts of both the above flavours, AND LIBRARIAN DREADNOUGHTS who will undoubtedly be HQ, I really don't see why there won't be a way to take Dreadnoughts as scoring troops.
Even if it means taking 2 Librarian Dreadnoughts, and only having 2 scoring units, I'd fucking do it!



Khorothis said:


> Whoa, wait a sec, did I just read "thin elegant blades" over there? In the grimdark, MC filled world of 40K? ... ... ...
> brb nerd rage


What would you call Eldar if not elegant?
I mean, that's kinda their whole 'thing'.


----------



## Khorothis

Winterous said:


> What would you call Eldar if not elegant?
> I mean, that's kinda their whole 'thing'.


Wusses with pigstickers is fine, I've no problem with that. But ASTARTES WITH PIGSTICKERS... now THATS pissing me off into all-caps heights. :angry::angry::angry: I can see the Italian theme going on with the BA but please, for one moment try to be realistic: hurting a Terminator with a chainsword is hard enough, but its impossible with a lousy rapier! What are you going to do, scratch a "Z" on their chestplate, ruining the paintjob? 'cause thats the only thing you're going to hurt. And yourself, since the next thing you're going to notice is that the Termie bitchslapped you with his PF and you're now orbiting the planet you were previously fighting on. Without a face of course.


----------



## Aramoro

Indeed rapier like blades would be ridiculous. I mean yes, 8ft tall super humans jumping in their spaceship and flying millions of light years to a far flung part of the galaxy with the aid of a giant psychic lighthouse so they can fly around on their mechanical wings hitting people with sabres is fine. 

Rapiers? That's just stupid. 

Aramoro


----------



## Winterous

Khorothis said:


> Wusses with pigstickers is fine, I've no problem with that. But ASTARTES WITH PIGSTICKERS... now THATS pissing me off into all-caps heights. :angry::angry::angry: I can see the Italian theme going on with the BA but please, for one moment try to be realistic: hurting a Terminator with a chainsword is hard enough, but its impossible with a lousy rapier! What are you going to do, scratch a "Z" on their chestplate, ruining the paintjob? 'cause thats the only thing you're going to hurt. And yourself, since the next thing you're going to notice is that the Termie bitchslapped you with his PF and you're now orbiting the planet you were previously fighting on. Without a face of course.


You could always STAB people with them.


----------



## Khorothis

Winterous said:


> You could always STAB people with them.


Yeah, I might succeed in tickling the Termie to death with it. Sure.
No wait, hes in Termie Armour, known to laugh at anything short of a plasma gun. OMG WTF Barbe-QQ!!! 
Even if its a power weapon, you'd have to stab both hearts of the Termie in quick succession, otherwise you're fucked, since although Marines have a single wound technically, in reality they can take a lot of beating before they hit the ground. And when I say "a lot" I do mean "a lot".


----------



## Prothor Ironfist

Khorothis said:


> Wusses with pigstickers is fine, I've no problem with that. But ASTARTES WITH PIGSTICKERS... now THATS pissing me off into all-caps heights. :angry::angry::angry: I can see the Italian theme going on with the BA but please, for one moment try to be realistic: hurting a Terminator with a chainsword is hard enough, but its impossible with a lousy rapier! What are you going to do, scratch a "Z" on their chestplate, ruining the paintjob? 'cause thats the only thing you're going to hurt. And yourself, since the next thing you're going to notice is that the Termie bitchslapped you with his PF and you're now orbiting the planet you were previously fighting on. Without a face of course.


Or they could be charged like a power weapon so that it isn't the blade cutting through the armour it's the energy field? Or have you not considered that?


----------



## Khorothis

Prothor Ironfist said:


> Or they could be charged like a power weapon so that it isn't the blade cutting through the armour it's the energy field? Or have you not considered that?


Just a mere two minutes before you, yes.


----------



## DaafiejjXD

And then electrify the termie from the inside? Sounds plausible to me, plus electric charges could ruin the termie armor's electric circuit. How does that sound for a weapon? Electrifying (read: cooking) the victim from the inside, and ruining his armor (maybe even his weapon). And about the thin part... just helps penetrating armor and flesh :biggrin:


----------



## bonswizzle

bishop5 said:


> These are the freakin' Space Hulk models...


I'm glad you noticed too...


----------



## Khorothis

DaafiejjXD said:


> And then electrify the termie from the inside? Sounds plausible to me, plus electric charges could ruin the termie armor's electric circuit. How does that sound for a weapon? Electrifying (read: cooking) the victim from the inside, and ruining his armor (maybe even his weapon). And about the thin part... just helps penetrating armor and flesh :biggrin:


Power weapons don't work like that. PWs are not sword+Duracel. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_weapon First two sentences.

Just out of curiousity, are you just trying to prove me wrong or you actually like the idea of 8 feet tall men in awesome power armour fighting with pigstickers? The first is no big deal the other is disturbing.


----------



## DaafiejjXD

Oww.. sorry, I was wrong about the power weapon, and how it works. Assumed that power was meant as in electricity(damn eavy metal and painting lighting on PW's). And it was just proving you wrong, about them not being able to injure(or even kill) a termie. I'm still feeling awkward about these small swords.. And won't those thin swords just break if they hit something hard?


----------



## Khorothis

DaafiejjXD said:


> Oww.. sorry, I was wrong about the power weapon, and how it works. Assumed that power was meant as in electricity(damn eavy metal and painting lighting on PW's). And it was just proving you wrong, about them not being able to injure(or even kill) a termie. I'm still feeling awkward about these small swords..


Well, if they look good who cares? Besides, in Dow they do have a crackling effect to them IIRC. 
I can't remember who said exactly (I keep seeing it in someone's sig here and its awesome), but you really shouldn't try to find any sense in a world where people travel thousands of light years in miles long ships to fight with swords.


----------



## fett14622

With the rapier there could be a special rule like “Killing Blow” that the DE have in WHF


----------



## Baron Spikey

From BigRed on BoLS



> So check this out. I can't tell you how cool these guys sound!
> 
> *Exalted Assault Squad*
> _"Put Vega from Street Fighter into a slim power armour and give him the Blade of Sigvald and the jump pack of Saint Celestine and you have the right idea."_
> 
> After battle the Exalted search for wounded who have succumbed to the black rage and take them to the chapter tower prison.
> 
> 5-10 members, Fast Attack, Standard Marine statline with Ld:10/I:5
> jump packs, stormbolter, boltpistol, Exalted blades (thin straight blade with spiral hilt, power weapon, +1 Strength)
> _Guardians of Amareo_: replaces Red Fury and Furious Charge with hit& run.
> No transport options
> Upgrade to _Exemplar Sanguinator_ granting:
> _-Paragon of the Host:_ Reroll hit & run roll
> _-Coup de Grace:_ If at least 3 attacks hit, they causes instant death


good guess fett :shok:


----------



## Churlton

Aramoro said:


> Indeed rapier like blades would be ridiculous. I mean yes, 8ft tall super humans jumping in their spaceship and flying millions of light years to a far flung part of the galaxy with the aid of a giant psychic lighthouse so they can fly around on their mechanical wings hitting people with sabres is fine.
> 
> Rapiers? That's just stupid.
> 
> Aramoro


Excellent Aramoro, you summed up the reality-check perfectly. (+ rep for you).
It is an imaginary universe; if you think the figures are great and you would like to paint & field them ..... then, who cares.

I was chasing up an idea over on the Modelling & painting forum (http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=54463) to use a WFB figure of Sigvald; purely because I like the pose (even if he does have a rapier.


----------



## Churlton

Aramoro said:


> Indeed rapier like blades would be ridiculous. I mean yes, 8ft tall super humans jumping in their spaceship and flying millions of light years to a far flung part of the galaxy with the aid of a giant psychic lighthouse so they can fly around on their mechanical wings hitting people with sabres is fine.
> 
> Rapiers? That's just stupid.
> 
> Aramoro


Excellent Aramoro, you summed up the reality-check perfectly. (+ rep for you).
It is an imaginary universe; if you think the figures are great and you would like to paint & field them ..... then, who cares.

I was chasing up an idea over on the Modelling & painting forum (http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=54463) to use a WFB figure of Sigvald; purely because I like the pose (even if he does have a rapier.

And this was before I caught the updated thread here.


----------



## pathwinder14

From BOLS:
Force Organization Chart
Blood Angel FOC is divergant from the Ultramarine one:
-Dreadnoughts are heavy support.
-Furioso Dreads with droppods are fast attack.
-Twin scout entries are both elites, but one is scoring.
-Only dedicated ground transport is the Rhino (Razorbacks are out)
-Assault Squad and Tactical Squad are troops.
-Honour Guard can be troops if fielded with Dante.
-Jump pack units are in every FOC category except heavy support and HQ:
--Assault Squad - troops
--Honour Guard - elites
--Exalted - fast attack

Death Company is 0-1 and doesn't need a slot in the FOC

Units Rules
Tantalus Lander is a dedicated transport for everything in the army except tanks, Land Speeders and Exalted. Its weaponry is: 2 twin-linked assault cannons, 1 twin-linked special weapon.

Land Raider: Redeemer, Crusader and Standard

Terminator sergeants can get close combat wargear. There is a Terminator upgrade to allow shooting in an enemy phase.

Exalted: 4/4/4(5)/4/1/5/1+1/10/3+, jump troops, hit & run, furious charge, no red fury/combat tactics, power armor, stormbolter, power weapon, bolt pistol, no options, no transports.

Quite angelic: masterfully crafted slim armor, jump packs, mechanical wings, masks, long hair.

Named Characters
Erasmus: Furious charge, digital weapons (rending), master crafted combi melta: 18" S:8 AP:1 Assault 1, melta, reroll to hit, 4+ ward save, can chose one set of special rules: 
-squad ignores red fury
-red fury and preferred enemy
-rage and feel no pain

Mephiston: 7/7/5/5/3/7/4/10/2+, FnP, Fearless, Eternal Warrior, Fleet, 2 psychic powers per turn. 
More potent versions of Might of heroes, Transfixing Gaze and Blood Stasis powers: 

The gun of Victor's servitor is 36" S:6 AP:6 Assault6

Psychic Powers
Quickening: Infantry moves as beasts, jump troops and walkers gain fleet. 
Blood Stasis: 5" vortex of blood in base contact. Enemy models count as being in difficult terrain, and suffer one wound if they try to move and any of the distance dice shows a 1, Mephiston: can cast it in close combat centered on himself, and enemies attacking with a 1 suffer a wound.
Might of Heroes: one model in squad gets +D3 attacks, Mephiston: can cast it on himself.
Primarchs Grace: Squad may reroll dangerous terrain tests.
Transfixing Gaze: Target model must take a leadership roll off or not able to attack librarian, Mephiston: not able to attack any model.
Living Darkness: A template which blocks line of sight.

Fluff
Background: mainly Blood Angels and 4 successor chapters with one page each:
-Blood Consuls
-Angels Sanguine
-Flesh Tearers
-Angels Vermillion 


*And:*

Exalted Assault Squad
"Put Vega from Street Fighter into a slim power armour and give him the Blade of Sigvald and the jump pack of Saint Celestine and you have the right idea."


After battle the Exalted search for wounded who have succumbed to the black rage and take them to the chapter tower prison.

5-10 members, Fast Attack, Standard Marine statline with Ld:10/I:5
jump packs, stormbolter, boltpistol, Exalted blades (thin straight blade with spiral hilt, power weapon, +1 Strength)
Guardians of Amareo: replaces Red Fury and Furious Charge with hit& run.
No transport options
Upgrade to Exemplar Sanguinator granting: 
-Paragon of the Host: Reroll hit & run roll
-Coup de Grace: If at least 3 attacks hit, they causes instant death


----------



## liforrevenge

pathwinder14 said:


> From BOLS:
> 
> "Put Vega from Street Fighter into a slim power armour and give him the Blade of Sigvald and the jump pack of Saint Celestine and you have the right idea."


Yes please.

Regardless of what everyone has been complaining about, I think rapiers/sabres would look pretty sweet. I mean they don't have to be _that_ thin. Just thinner than a normal power sword to the point of being recognizably different.

Also, I'm a fan of the "elegant" theme of the Blood Angels.


----------



## jimbob1254

pathwinder14 said:


> From BOLS:
> Force Organization Chart
> Blood Angel FOC is divergant from the Ultramarine one:
> -Dreadnoughts are heavy support.
> -Furioso Dreads with droppods are fast attack.
> -Twin scout entries are both elites, but one is scoring.
> -Only dedicated ground transport is the Rhino (Razorbacks are out)
> -Assault Squad and Tactical Squad are troops.
> -Honour Guard can be troops if fielded with Dante.
> -Jump pack units are in every FOC category except heavy support and HQ:
> --Assault Squad - troops
> --Honour Guard - elites
> --Exalted - fast attack
> 
> Death Company is 0-1 and doesn't need a slot in the FOC
> 
> Units Rules
> Tantalus Lander is a dedicated transport for everything in the army except tanks, Land Speeders and Exalted. Its weaponry is: 2 twin-linked assault cannons, 1 twin-linked special weapon.
> 
> Land Raider: Redeemer, Crusader and Standard
> 
> Terminator sergeants can get close combat wargear. There is a Terminator upgrade to allow shooting in an enemy phase.
> 
> Exalted: 4/4/4(5)/4/1/5/1+1/10/3+, jump troops, hit & run, furious charge, no red fury/combat tactics, power armor, stormbolter, power weapon, bolt pistol, no options, no transports.
> 
> Quite angelic: masterfully crafted slim armor, jump packs, mechanical wings, masks, long hair.
> 
> Named Characters
> Erasmus: Furious charge, digital weapons (rending), master crafted combi melta: 18" S:8 AP:1 Assault 1, melta, reroll to hit, 4+ ward save, can chose one set of special rules:
> -squad ignores red fury
> -red fury and preferred enemy
> -rage and feel no pain
> 
> Mephiston: 7/7/5/5/3/7/4/10/2+, FnP, Fearless, Eternal Warrior, Fleet, 2 psychic powers per turn.
> More potent versions of Might of heroes, Transfixing Gaze and Blood Stasis powers:
> 
> The gun of Victor's servitor is 36" S:6 AP:6 Assault6
> 
> Psychic Powers
> Quickening: Infantry moves as beasts, jump troops and walkers gain fleet.
> Blood Stasis: 5" vortex of blood in base contact. Enemy models count as being in difficult terrain, and suffer one wound if they try to move and any of the distance dice shows a 1, Mephiston: can cast it in close combat centered on himself, and enemies attacking with a 1 suffer a wound.
> Might of Heroes: one model in squad gets +D3 attacks, Mephiston: can cast it on himself.
> Primarchs Grace: Squad may reroll dangerous terrain tests.
> Transfixing Gaze: Target model must take a leadership roll off or not able to attack librarian, Mephiston: not able to attack any model.
> Living Darkness: A template which blocks line of sight.
> 
> Fluff
> Background: mainly Blood Angels and 4 successor chapters with one page each:
> -Blood Consuls
> -Angels Sanguine
> -Flesh Tearers
> -Angels Vermillion
> 
> 
> *And:*
> 
> Exalted Assault Squad
> "Put Vega from Street Fighter into a slim power armour and give him the Blade of Sigvald and the jump pack of Saint Celestine and you have the right idea."
> 
> 
> After battle the Exalted search for wounded who have succumbed to the black rage and take them to the chapter tower prison.
> 
> 5-10 members, Fast Attack, Standard Marine statline with Ld:10/I:5
> jump packs, stormbolter, boltpistol, Exalted blades (thin straight blade with spiral hilt, power weapon, +1 Strength)
> Guardians of Amareo: replaces Red Fury and Furious Charge with hit& run.
> No transport options
> Upgrade to Exemplar Sanguinator granting:
> -Paragon of the Host: Reroll hit & run roll
> -Coup de Grace: If at least 3 attacks hit, they causes instant death


OMG if thats true then thats gonna be the best codex of ever and everyone can feel the wrath of mephiston even more than before.


----------



## pathwinder14

I simply hope that the Death Co. get changed so that Mephiston or Dante can lead them.


----------



## Talos

After Harry on Warseer said that Victor and unholt are made up. I dont think I am going to trust these rumours until we are closer to release date.


----------



## DaafiejjXD

Made up?! NOOOO I liked them... 
Monstrous creature with cool weapon+ techmarine= awesome 
Monstrous creature with cool weapon+ techmarine+made up= hateful!


----------



## liforrevenge

Talos said:


> After Harry on Warseer said that Victor and unholt are made up. I dont think I am going to trust these rumours until we are closer to release date.


That's why they are called *rumors*. They should be taken with a grain of salt regardless of who says what, and are by definition untrustworthy. (with the explicit exception of official announcements, which can by no means be called rumors.)


----------



## Siphon

jimbob1254 said:


> OMG if thats true then thats gonna be the best codex of ever and everyone can feel the wrath of mephiston even more than before.


Still doesn't seem to have an invulnerable save which hurts. Otherwise, yes he looks pretty majestic.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Just inputting my comment on the rapiers case. Rapiers are thin so that they can be punched through armour by applying a greater force acting on a smaller area. I could quite imagine warriors like the exalted (they sound an awful lot like GK with jump packs and hit and run special rule) using a rapier to say for example stabbing someone through the head very quickly. Even a terminator might struggle to live with a hole through his brain!


----------



## Winterous

Yeah, about the Power toothpicks, have you ever considered that they use a different or improved technology?
Perhaps they _do_ cook them from the inside, I mean, they do have S5 after all, there has got to be a reason for that, and it can't be the size of the weapon.


----------



## Lord Reevan

Anybody see that book that came with the special edition of assassin's creed 2? There are swords in that book that are just like rapiers, the hilt, length of the blade all that, but the blade is as wide as a longsword. I'm thinking something like that if they do it. 

As well death cult assassins, dark elf characters, high elf characters, actually most fantasy swords, are much thinner than power weapons of 40k and they work grand. I can see it working pretty well.

The amount of changes being proposed is kinda frightening. They seem to be going way too far into their little specialities and no longer being a mainly codex chapter. Only time will tell....


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Aye, Rapiers don't have to be the fencing ones, they are still a blade after all. It suits the elegance of the Blood Angels and (the Exalted, lots of Dreadnoughts ect.) makes them unique without diverging from the Codex. They've just got better gear is all.


----------



## bitsandkits

i think people have just taken the term rapier and started applying it to any sword thats thinner than the standard power sword, a rapier is and has always been a thin thrusting weapon, often the blade wasnt even edged, but mainly the rapier identified by the complex hilt design,mainly used for fencing or duels. As a rapier sword is generally thinner than 1 inch its unlikely of GW to use the sword as the basis for a power weapon but it will be nice to see what they have done as im fairly sick of the same old wargear for marines.


----------



## Hellados

i just want some more characters, some new models and an invulnerable save for mephiston.

i dont see why we need a flying drop ship thing or a kick arse assault troop choice (i love the honour guard and the vets and taking 30ish assault marines against the tau ) just some cool rules for them would be nice, even giving corbulo a jp would be nice

and a bit of conjuncture, a baal class land raider would be cool....but imho its called a land raider crusader


----------



## MaidenManiac

As long as those "pigstickers" looks like something that actually might survive being used by a Space Marine it can be really sweet. Do mind though that a IRL SM would do more damage to someone with a grenade by throwing it directly on (and through) the target then using it the normal way....


----------



## Warlock in Training

why the hell are the last 3 pages about "yay" or "nay" to pigstickers as pwerweapons. If I give my turkey baser a power field that splits molecules then it would count as a power weapon.


----------



## admirzay12

i can't believe that people are arguing over this when there are plenty of other things in this *IMAGINAIRY*world that are just as unlikley to kill a termie, such as a lasgun.


----------



## DaafiejjXD

admirzay12 said:


> i can't believe that people are arguing over this when there are plenty of other things in this *IMAGINAIRY*world that are just as unlikley to kill a termie, such as a lasgun.


 You will be surprised as to how many termies can fall to massed flashlight fire, I once killed 5 in a single round, using *ahem* ~125 dice of flashlightfire:biggrinlarge IG army+orders=lots of light)


----------



## pathwinder14

admirzay12 said:


> i can't believe that people are arguing over this when there are plenty of other things in this *IMAGINAIRY*world that are just as unlikley to kill a termie, such as a lasgun.


Your point is seconded.


----------



## admirzay12

Back on topic, how will GW implement a brand spanking new vehicle to a race that never advances it's tech with existing fluff already in place?

(im talking about the lander thing)

i admit that NEVER is quite a strong word, but u know what i mean.


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

admirzay12 said:


> Back on topic, how will GW implement a brand spanking new vehicle to a race that never advances it's tech with existing fluff already in place?
> 
> (im talking about the lander thing)
> 
> i admit that NEVER is quite a strong word, but u know what i mean.


The same way they included all the other new vehicles. Just put them in the fluff as if they were there all along.


----------



## Crimson Shadow

Or as with the LR Crusader, they rolled it out with the Black Templar codex, and then when the new edition of 40k came out, it was written into all the chapters as an option. If they can't make it work now, but give them a new edition, and they're golden.


----------



## Captain Lachesis

what i want from the new Blood Angels codex, what actually - i hope - that will be included is this space marine assault squad that vanilla space marines have that can assault the same round that they deploy from deep strike. 
something - as i see it - that the "veteran assault squad" should be able to do. 

Plus, when the 3rd edition Blood angels codex came out the assault squads (the simple ones) could use two flamers, i made my assault squads in this way, when the PDF "thing" came out the normal assault squads could only be armed with plasma pistols.

Since i have never played with the PDF - and i dont want to now that we are close to its retirement i was hoping that when the new BA codex comes up the assault squads will be - again - able to field flamers.

Mostly waiting for answers about those two things.


----------



## Horacus

Well, the blood angels need to really be something because the new bugs are a pretty though nut to crack.


----------



## pathwinder14

*From thehogsofwar blog:*
Game-Headz has up what appears to be the most concrete list of content from the new Blood Angels book that I have seen so far. Either someone was very bored and made up a false table of contents or this is from a leaked paly-testing copy. My money is on the play testing copy but you never can tell.


From game-headz.blogspot.com:

Wednesday, January 20, 2010
Not so Mini Blood Angels update

Ok stuff is really starting to pour out at this time.

In the UK the feb Wd is showing up and there have been some conformations...
Furiso Dread, and a Librarian Dread!


(NOTE THIS MAY BE the actual page listings, I can not confirm or deny if it's really the one in the new codex, so for now it's just "Fan generated" and not from a GW Codex, take with Salt)

also this got leaked out too.
Its the army list and page numbers from the new codex
Get a look at it while you can ... it came from several trusted forums and trusted posters, I'd rather not directly which ones at this point to keep the ban hammer off them and GW legal off their necks.

Interesting notes ...
1 page for the Land raiders
a lot of Named IC's for several chapters
Honor guard AND the Exalted....they are different people..
2 types of Scout and scout bikers.
Tantalus.... if you don't know don't ask ( or read a couple posts below)
Baal Pread separate from Reg Pred
Mephiston gets 2 pages of entrees
Victor Nergal... a MASTER OF THE FORGE! ( finally....)
Any how enjoy while it lasts

----
page -26 background
27 combat squads, red fury, furious charge, they shall know no fear
28 Commander
29 Sanguinary Priest
30 Chaplain
31 Librarian
32 Tactical Squad
33 Assault Squad
34 Devastator Squad
35 Death Company
36 Terminator Squad
37 Honour Guard
38 Dreadnought
39 Furioso Dreadnought
40 Scouts
41 Initiate Scouts
42 Bikes
43 Scoutbikes
44 Land Speeder
45 Exalted
46 Techmarine/Razorback
47 Rhino
48 Drop Pod
49 Tantalus
50 Predator
51 Baal Predator
52 Whirlwind/Vindicator
53 Land Raider
54 Commander Cervan Dante, Chaptermaster of the Blood Angels
55 Mikhael Faustus, Sanguinor of the Blood Angels, Exemplar of the Host
56-57 Mephiston, Chief Librarian of the Blood Angels, Lord of Death
58 Erasmus Tycho, Captain of the 3. Company of the Blood Angels
59 Reo Lemartes, Chaplain of the Blood Angels, Guardian of the Lost
60 Victor Nergal, Master of the Forge of the Blood Angels
61 Moriar the Chosen, Death Company Dreadnought of the Blood Angels
62 Hieri Lorenzo, Sergeant of the First Company of the Blood Angels
63 Absolutus, Dreadnought of the Flesh Tearers, Furioso Supremo
64 Gabriel Seth, Chaptermaster of the Flesh Tearers
65 Toledo Astorath, Chaptermaster of the Angels Sanguine
66-72 wargear
73 psychic powers
----

Edit :Here's more...


-----
Force Organization Chart

Blood Angel FOC is divergant from the Ultramarine one:

-Dreadnoughts are heavy support.

-Furioso Dreads with droppods are fast attack.

-Twin scout entries are both elites, but one is scoring.

-Only dedicated ground transport is the Rhino (Razorbacks are out)

-Assault Squad and Tactical Squad are troops.

-Honour Guard can be troops if fielded with Dante.

-Jump pack units are in every FOC category except heavy support and HQ:

--Assault Squad - troops

--Honour Guard - elites

--Exalted - fast attack

Death Company is 0-1 and doesn't need a slot in the FOC

Units Rules

Tantalus Lander is a dedicated transport for everything in the army except tanks, Land Speeders and Exalted. Its weaponry is: 2 twin-linked assault cannons, 1 twin-linked special weapon.

Land Raider: Redeemer, Crusader and Standard

Terminator sergeants can get close combat wargear. There is a Terminator upgrade to allow shooting in an enemy phase.

Exalted: 4/4/4(5)/4/1/5/1+1/10/3+, jump troops, hit & run, furious charge, no red fury/combat tactics, power armor, stormbolter, power weapon, bolt pistol, no options, no transports.

Quite angelic: masterfully crafted slim armor, jump packs, mechanical wings, masks, long hair.

Named Characters

Erasmus: Furious charge, digital weapons (rending), master crafted combi melta: 18" S:8 AP:1 Assault 1, melta, reroll to hit, 4+ ward save, can chose one set of special rules:

-squad ignores red fury
-red fury and preferred enemy
-rage and feel no pain

Mephiston: 7/7/5/5/3/7/4/10/2+, FnP, Fearless, Eternal Warrior, Fleet, 2 psychic powers per turn.

More potent versions of Might of heroes, Transfixing Gaze and Blood Stasis powers:

The gun of Victor's servitor is 36" S:6 AP:6 Assault6

Psychic Powers

Quickening: Infantry moves as beasts, jump troops and walkers gain fleet.

Blood Stasis: 5" vortex of blood in base contact. Enemy models count as being in difficult terrain, and suffer one wound if they try to move and any of the distance dice shows a 1, Mephiston: can cast it in close combat centered on himself, and enemies attacking with a 1 suffer a wound.

Might of Heroes: one model in squad gets +D3 attacks, Mephiston: can cast it on himself.

Primarchs Grace: Squad may reroll dangerous terrain tests.

Transfixing Gaze: Target model must take a leadership roll off or not able to attack librarian, Mephiston: not able to attack any model.

Living Darkness: A template which blocks line of sight.

Fluff

Background: mainly Blood Angels and 4 successor chapters with one page each:

-Blood Consuls

-Angels Sanguine

-Flesh Tearers

-Angels Vermillion

*From BOLS:*

Yet more drips and drabs regarding the Sons of Sanguinius. Lets get to it.
We've heard the army is subject to the following special rules:

-Combat squads
-ATSKNF
-Furious Charge
-Red Fury: Unit must pass a Ld check if an enemy model is within 12" or be subject to Rage USR
(Note the lack of Combat Tactics)

Techmarines are said to be similar to the Space Marine codex, but lose Thunderfires and Fortifications rules, instead allowing squads access to Razorbacks as transports upgrades. They are said to have access to Orgyn based "assault servitors"...


----------



## Lord Reevan

Price tag on mephiston seems reasonable now compared to his statline there. he can kick a greater daemons head in now hehehe. 

I hope the whole faustians thing doesn't take over their fluff. I dislike the idea of it but a small thing about it shouldn't be too bad. makes them more characterful....

overall starting to like the look of it.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Corbulo appears to have gone- bad times


----------



## liforrevenge

Baron Spikey said:


> Corbulo appears to have gone- bad times


yeah, but it looks like we can take sanguinary priests as HQ choices again, I missed those guys.


----------



## Crimson Shadow

Maybe the Red Grail will be an upgrade option for a Sanguinary Priest, giving you the effect of Corbulo.


----------



## Katie Drake

Considering the entire army is getting _Furious Charge_, I don't really see the point of Corbulo's Red Grail being in the Codex. To be honest I'm kinda glad Corbulo is gone... any special character that runs around with a freaking chainsword deserves to go.

Bye Corbs. Can't say I'll miss ya.


----------



## pathwinder14

Katie Drake said:


> Considering the entire army is getting _Furious Charge_, I don't really see the point of Corbulo's Red Grail being in the Codex. To be honest I'm kinda glad Corbulo is gone... any special character that runs around with a freaking chainsword deserves to go.
> 
> Bye Corbs. Can't say I'll miss ya.


Don't like chainswords?


----------



## flankman

pff she must LOVE tycho then 
no weapons!!


----------



## Katie Drake

pathwinder14 said:


> Don't like chainswords?


It's more that I like my Independent Characters to ignore armor saves. They seem kinda useless otherwise.


----------



## Crimson Shadow

Personally I'm glad they're finally making Mephiston into the character he USED to be. In 2nd edition, if he had Force cards stored in his force sword, and you rolled well, he could punch through a land raider.


----------



## Baron Spikey

It seems slightly ironic that BoLS have been using an image of Corbulo as the header of their BA news when he seemingly isn't in the Codex.


----------



## pathwinder14

Katie Drake said:


> It's more that I like my Independent Characters to ignore armor saves. They seem kinda useless otherwise.


That's why I always took Lemartes instead. Now if Mephiston or Dante can lead the Death Co I won't have to use Lemartes. I would love to see Dante, Mephiston, and a controllable Death Co in a BA force.


----------



## flankman

i wonder if they will make there point costs more incline with none chars since atm they only cost abit more then regular captains/chaplains but do oh so much more (Xept for tycho)


----------



## admirzay12

flankman said:


> i wonder if they will make there point costs more incline with none chars since atm they only cost abit more then regular captains/chaplains but do oh so much more (Xept for tycho)


yea but thats the same in most codex's , tau, sm.. the down side is that u only get 1 and some rules are bad if you want to make ur army individual and have options instead of a almost set list (farsight).


----------



## Captain Stillios

Librerian Furioso dreads woohooo!


----------



## tu_shan82

I don't know if I like the idea of a librarian dread, and I'm not too keen on the lander thing or the guys with rapiers either.


----------



## pathwinder14

I look forward to the modelling opportunities that the Exalted offer if no models are made for them. I can easily get fantasy battle rapier looking swords from the Empire models. I can get wings over at reaper miniatures.


----------



## fett14622

Reading all of rumors is getting me excited for the new BA codex. Originally my first army was going to be BA. But then decided to go with a DIY codex chapter. I’m so glad I waited. But now to choose Blood Angels or Flesh Terrors for my army.


----------



## Vahouth

Check this out!

The new BA colour scheme and confirmations about razorbacks, Land Raider transports, infernus pistols for sergeants and Furius Charge when gripped by the Red Thirst!

Enjoy!!!:mrgreen:


----------



## pathwinder14

*From BOLS:*

So we've all been hearing crazed stores of a new marine flying vehicle headed our way with Codex: Blood Angels. A flying machine somewhere in the "baby thunderhawk" style. Here's the latest we hear:


Tantalus Lander
Skimmer, Fast, Deep Strike
Front:13 Side:11 Rear:10 BS:4
Two assault cannons, and a forward twin-linked special weapon
Transport Capacity:
16 models (Terminators/Jump pack troops count double)
OR
5 bikes (attack bikes count double)
OR
1 dreadnought

Special Rules: Models equipped with jump packs may assault the turn they disembark if the vehicle moved less than 12" or deepstruck.

This is said to be a transport upgrade for many units.No word on point cost, but its basically a flying Baal with transport capacity. I think looking towards those rules and the cost of the Valkyrie will give us a decent ballpark.


----------



## fett14622

With the Tantalus Lander you will not need to use any Baal Predators. I think
I’m guessing they could be between 85-100 points.


----------



## Captain Stillios

fett14622 said:


> With the Tantalus Lander you will not need to use any Baal Predators. I think


(Shoots Fett in face) Of course we will use Baal Predators cos they are freakin BAAL PREDATORS!!! the most manly veichle in the game!!!


----------



## Muffinman

I'm looking forward to the knew Tantalus Lander it sounds look it will make BA a really hard hitting assault army. I can see myself doing an army all in Landers move them up and charge. the only problem will be the cost if the cost anywhere near wat a valkyrie costs.

Edit: YAY 100 posts!!!!


----------



## Katie Drake

Ugh, I'm so annoyed. According to that article it's looking like you'll actually have to fail your Red Fury test before you get _Furious Charge_. Lame...


----------



## tu_shan82

Katie Drake said:


> Ugh, I'm so annoyed. According to that article it's looking like you'll actually have to fail your Red Fury test before you get _Furious Charge_. Lame...


That sucks serious wiener if that turns out being true.


----------



## Crimson Shadow

I'm leaning more towards the optimistic side. Meaning, that IF they fail their red thirst test, and they HAVE to charge, at least they have the Furious Charge to help them out unlike vanilla marines. And if they choose to charge on their own they still get FC.

Here's hoping anyway.


----------



## Judas Masias

Sorry for going off topic but has anyone heard anything on weather GW is going to make Thunderwolves or Fenrisian Wolf models?


----------



## fett14622

I know this is wishful thinking but I would like to see new Death Company models. I think they should all have skull helmets like the New LOD Sgt. It’s more fitting for their name. Plastic models would be awesome too. If metal maybe a more dynamic pose.


----------



## stewartjohn

Judas Masias said:


> Sorry for going off topic but has anyone heard anything on weather GW is going to make Thunderwolves or Fenrisian Wolf models?


Forgeworld are doing them


----------



## Winterous

Vahouth said:


> Check this out!
> 
> The new BA colour scheme and confirmations about razorbacks, Land Raider transports, infernus pistols for sergeants and Furius Charge when gripped by the Red Thirst!
> 
> Enjoy!!!:mrgreen:


This link doesn't work for me


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Nor me either I have no idea what this guy is on it?


----------



## Katie Drake

It was taken down earlier today. Most people think that the article wasn't supposed to be published until after the Blood Angels Codex had been released, since it was talking all about how to paint Blood Angel Tactical Marines and all.


----------



## Wax

Katie Drake said:


> It was taken down earlier today.


NOOOOO! So sad.

Also: I'm really starting to like the idea of sticking JP Death Company in a Lander, then DS and first turn assaulting them. I can see that being pretty sweet if it works.

EDIT: If you go to Bolter and Chainsword under the Blood Angels section someone copied the text from the article. It's near the end of the 3rd codex discussion thread.


----------



## Winterous

Katie Drake said:


> It was taken down earlier today. Most people think that the article wasn't supposed to be published until after the Blood Angels Codex had been released, since it was talking all about how to paint Blood Angel Tactical Marines and all.


:cray:
Did anyone take screenshots?


----------



## liforrevenge

Katie Drake said:


> It was taken down earlier today. Most people think that the article wasn't supposed to be published until after the Blood Angels Codex had been released, since it was talking all about how to paint Blood Angel Tactical Marines and all.


I'm glad I managed to clap eyes on it while I had the chance then!

Infernus pistols and lots of land raiders? oooooooooooooooooooooo


----------



## Katie Drake

Winterous said:


> :cray:
> Did anyone take screenshots?


It's on the B&C. If I'm not feeling lazy I'll get it from there and post it up here later.


----------



## Katie Drake

Normally I don't double post, but I'm going to this time so that those with a subscription to the thread will get notification. 

--

Copied by Neconilis at Dakka

— Article by Andrew Kenrick & Nick Bayton

At the core of any Blood Angels army are squads of Tactical Space Marines, reliable and stalwart Space Marines able to turn their considerable skills to any battlefield role. They are flexible units, as confident on the attack as they are at defence. Tactical Marines might be tasked to hold key objectives in the face of overwhelming numbers, or they might be used to spearhead an advance into the heart of the enemy battleline.

The standard armament of a Tactical Marine is the boltgun, a formidable weapon that fires a relentless hail of explosive warheads. As well as the boltgun, Tactical Marines are trained in the use of more specialist weaponry, from deadly flamers to long-ranged lascannons, allowing a squad to go to war with the right combination of wargear for the task at hand. In addition, Blood Angels Tactical Marines are all trained in the use of jump packs and close combat weaponry, so when the need arises they can take to the air in the role of Assault Marines instead.

Tactical Marines are often mechanised, riding to war in fast-moving Rhinos or accompanied by heavily armed Razorbacks. Unlike other Space Marine Chapters, the Blood Angels often employ Land Raiders to transport their Tactical Marines to battle, providing these mainline warriors with an unparalleled level of protection and firepower.

On the Tabletop

Tactical Squads are the most flexible troops in the Blood Angels army, able to be equipped with a variety of weaponry suited to the role you wish them to perform. They can be used to hang back and defend objectives, armed with longer-ranged weapons such as missile launchers and plasma guns, or sent forwards to drive the enemy back, in which case flamers, melta guns and multi-meltas are key. Better still, because a Tactical Squad can split into two Combat Squads when you deploy it, they can perform both roles at the same time.

Use them to:
Hold Ground: Plant a unit of Tactical Marines on an objective and they won't be going anywhere in a hurry. They have a great armour save, can pump out a truly horrible amount of firepower if the enemy draws too near (and a fair amount even at range) and are unlikely to fall back if they come under sustained assault. When playing Seize Ground, you can split the Tactical Squads into two Combat Squads to capture more objectives.

Push Forwards: Equip a unit of Tactical Marines with a meltagun and the Sergeant an infernus pistol and go tankhunting, or give them a flamer and the Sergeant a power weapon and send them into the thick of the fighting. By putting them in a dedicated transport, you can get them to the frontline in no time at all, clearing the enemy off objectives and then seizing them in the name of the Emperor.

Charge!: Tactical Marines are deadly at close range, as they can rapid fire their boltguns twice up to 12", but they aren't slouches in assault either. Their Sergeant can be armed with a variety of nasty close combat weaponry, including power fists, allowing the unit to tackle any foe no matter how big. And, if a unit of Tactical Marines finds itself afflicted by the Red Thirst, this is doubly true - with Furious Charge the unit will have Strength and Initiative 5, and two attacks when they charge.

Watch out for:
Biting off more than you can chew: Tactical Squads are the most flexible troops in the game, so there's little they can't turn their hands to. Just be careful you don't ask too much of them - they'll give it a good go before they die heroically, but you'll wish you hadn't sent them in unsupported.

--

Katie D


----------



## Winterous

Katie Drake said:


> In addition, Blood Angels Tactical Marines are all trained in the use of jump packs and close combat weaponry, so when the need arises they can take to the air in the role of Assault Marines instead.


I love you Katie, you're awesome :3
And uh, about the quote.
Um, don't ALL Codex chapters train their brothers as Scouts, then Assault Marines, then Devastators, THEN raise them to Tactical Marines?
So, wouldn't the above quote be applicable to ALL Codex chapters?


----------



## pathwinder14

Winterous said:


> I love you Katie, you're awesome :3
> And uh, about the quote.
> Um, don't ALL Codex chapters train their brothers as Scouts, then Assault Marines, then Devastators, THEN raise them to Tactical Marines?
> So, wouldn't the above quote be applicable to ALL Codex chapters?


Fluffwise yes, most chapters train like that. However if you read between the lines, this was obviously stated to reassure us that Assault Squads would still count as troops in the new Blood Angel codex.


----------



## Winterous

pathwinder14 said:


> Fluffwise yes, most chapters train like that. However if you read between the lines, this was obviously stated to reassure us that Assault Squads would still count as troops in the new Blood Angel codex.


Aah yes, that makes sense.


----------



## Baltar

Some much bs in this thread, it's hilarious.

Some people really will find anything to whinge about.

New BA sound awesome, and I do hope they include some of the madness from the novels (they were great, btw). Yes, the novels were poorly written, but what do you want us to read? twlight?. Mephiston is pure win, and deserves the attention. Leave out the silly spear bs though, everyone on Earth knows that sanguinius had a sword. The only thing he needs a shitty spear for, is to pick his teeth clean when he's done killing 'thirsters.

BA are my favourite army, but if there is one thing I hate, it is jump packs. They just don't look cool.

Dread' army sounds lame. Taking 6 of them would get you a lost match, no question.

New scouts, who cares, they are fodder anyway.

New land raider - meh - waste of money. Fire magnet, only there to die quickly.

Deep strike a furioso dread'? Yes please. That is pure win.

No corbulo. What is this madness?

New vet assault squad models with rapiers? Could be cool. I don't like jump packs, but whatever. Plenty of scope for conversion. Who needs a jump pack when a drop pod exists, anyway.

Death company venerable dread', with double attack number... OP much? But I'm not complaining.

Dante had better have a decent looking model, otherwise anger will ensue. Blatantly the oldest living space marine - so he should be rockin' about looking awesome. They make some awesome boxed set for that Calgar and command squad of smurf , but they leave Dante (a character about 999999999x10^999999999999999^9999^9 times better than Marneus) as some crappy gold gimp dude with a shitty axe.

SWORDS, PEOPLE

BLOOD ANGELS = SWORDS

LEAVE YOUR AXES FOR RUSSEL CROW TO CHOP PEOPLE UP WITH


----------



## BrotherYorei

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Some much bs in this thread, it's hilarious.
> 
> Some people really will find anything to whinge about.
> 
> New BA sound awesome, and I do hope they include some of the madness from the novels (they were great, btw). Yes, the novels were poorly written, but what do you want us to read? fucking twlight?. Mephiston is pure win, and deserves the attention. Leave out the silly spear bs though, everyone on Earth knows that sanguinius had a sword. The only thing he needs a shitty spear for, is to pick his teeth clean when he's done killing 'thirsters.
> 
> BA are my favourite army, but if there is one thing I hate, it is jump packs. They just don't look cool.
> 
> Dread' army sounds lame. Taking 6 of them would get you a lost match, no question.
> 
> New scouts, who cares, they are fodder anyway.
> 
> New land raider - meh - waste of money. Fire magnet, only there to die quickly.
> 
> Deep strike a furioso dread'? Yes please. That is pure win.
> 
> No corbulo. What is this madness?
> 
> New vet assault squad models with rapiers? Could be cool. I don't like jump packs, but whatever. Plenty of scope for conversion. Who needs a jump pack when a drop pod exists, anyway.
> 
> Death company venerable dread', with double attack number... OP much? But I'm not complaining.
> 
> Dante had better have a decent looking model, otherwise anger will ensue. Blatantly the oldest living space marine - so he should be rockin' about looking awesome. They make some awesome boxed set for that *** Calgar and command squad of smurf ****, but they leave Dante (a character about 999999999x10^999999999999999^9999^9 times better than Marneus) as some crappy gold gimp dude with a shitty axe.
> 
> SWORDS, PEOPLE
> 
> BLOOD ANGELS = SWORDS
> 
> LEAVE YOUR AXES FOR RUSSEL CROW TO CHOP PEOPLE UP WITH


first i would like to say that there will not be a new raider, it was in this thread in earlier post.

next, sanguinius did use a spear. it was given to him by the emperor. the sword was secondary and close combat weapon for him.


----------



## Baltar

Citation needed on the spear thing.

If you got that from the novels, and only from the novels, then it is NOT canon. (and thus not true)

ALL of the official GW artwork shows Sanguinius with a SWORD. NEVER has there been ONE SINGLE picture of him with a spear.

GW has made TWO models of Sanguinius, and BOTH had a SWORD.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Marneus had a new model because there wasn't a model available for his Terminator Armour option- the old dated power armour version is still the other option available.

I'd love to see a new Dante model but he doesn't NEED one as the model still looks good.

Citation needed- where does it say Blood Angels=swords?
I know they have highly artificed armour and weaponry but that certainly doesn't preclude ornate axes/hammer/maces/harlberds etc


----------



## Baltar

I don't need to cite that. It's my opinion


----------



## tu_shan82

If there's any chapter that would use only swords instead of axes and other weapons, I'd say it would most likely be Dark Angels rather than Blood Angels.


----------



## bitsandkits

The Real Sanguinius said:


> GW has made TWO models of Sanguinius, and BOTH had a SWORD.


No they havent matey, GW have only ever produced 1 model of a primark and that was leman russ way back in the 80s and the spear of sanguinus is very well documented.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Spear_of_Telesto


----------



## Katie Drake

The Real Sanguinius said:


> New BA sound awesome, and I do hope they include some of the madness from the novels (they were great, btw). Yes, the novels were poorly written, *but what do you want us to read? fucking twlight?*.


Erm, anything else? Try the Horus Heresy series.



> BA are my favourite army, but if there is one thing I hate, it is jump packs. They just don't look cool.


Methinks you're playing the wrong army. :laugh:



> New land raider - meh - waste of money. Fire magnet, only there to die quickly.


There is no new Land Raider. >_<



> No corbulo. What is this madness?


When your entire army picks up _Furious Charge_ standard, Corbulo isn't needed. Plus he looks stupid and is the only unique character I can think of at the moment that's armed with a freaking chainsword.



> Death company venerable dread', with double attack number... OP much? But I'm not complaining.


Hardly overpowered when we don't know how many points the thing costs... :scare:



> Dante had better have a decent looking model, otherwise anger will ensue. Blatantly the oldest living space marine - so he should be rockin' about looking awesome. They make some awesome boxed set for that *** Calgar and command squad of smurf ****, but they leave Dante (a character about 999999999x10^999999999999999^9999^9 times better than Marneus) as some crappy gold gimp dude with a shitty axe.


Dante's not getting a new model.


----------



## Baltar

bitsandkits said:


> No they havent matey, GW have only ever produced 1 model of a primark and that was leman russ way back in the 80s and the spear of sanguinus is very well documented.
> 
> http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Spear_of_Telesto


WRONG

I have seen both models in person (considering I live 30 min from the GW HQ), and here they are:



















You can't make it out very well, but the second pic shows Sanguinius stood atop the Eternity gate, fighting a 'thirster. You can't see it very well, due to the size of the pic. However, I have been in the presence of the real thing (as other members undoubtedly have, too, at the GW museum), and Sanguinius has a SWORD.

The ONLY place he has ever even been dicussed as owning a spear is in the novel. The novel isn't canon.

All pics and models of him, feature him holding a sword.

The end.

PS:

No new Dante model = New BA 'dex completely fails

Not cool enough. The old model looks like shit.


----------



## bitsandkits

those "models" were scratch built , the first one by mike mcvey back in the nineties and the eternity gate model is also a conversion/scratch built model and is not a GW model anymore than anything you or i produce.

as for a novel being "Canon", firstly i cant see how fiction written on behalf of GW cannot be considered offical ?Or Canon as you like to put it, does that mean the entries in the novel about his sword are also not canon or should we accept those because they support your argument.Should we also disreguard any short stories written in white dwarf or a codex? by that argument Sanguinus himself isnt canon!

to put the matter to rest please keep the thread about the confirmed information about the up coming blood angel codex, lets keep the wish listing and off topic posts were they belong, also we dont need swearing and offensive gay terms in this thread ,consider this a a warning, dont make me have to edit and delete your posts .


----------



## MaidenManiac

Katie Drake said:


> Ugh, I'm so annoyed. According to that article it's looking like you'll actually have to fail your Red Fury test before you get _Furious Charge_. Lame...


Personally I think this is a good thing. Back in 3d there was the 1/6 of running forward, thus thwarting all plans of shooting as the "drawback" of the FC bonus (good luck Devastators). Just giving BA FC "without any side effect" would, imho, be absurd and bad for the game unless they cost a lot more then standard SM. This way they will still be ok at around standard SM price rating:read:


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Hate to break this little "thing" we have going on but can we keep this thread about the new Blood Angels and not whining like spoiled children about what we should want but are not getting-put it this way every blood angel getting the furious charge skill would be ridiculous, I mean they would be vastly overpowered and in my eyes they should match the other marine chapters since I especially do not see a son of sanguinius being more ferocious than a space wolf for example.

I mean any player can moan about the bad side of any army like my eldar suffer for being toughness 3and my thousand sons are terrible in close combat but nothinmg is happening there.

Please try to gain some perspective please folks.


----------



## Baltar

So the black rage and the red thirst would make them less ferocious than a space marine that just happens to be furry?

Ok.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

No the majority of the Blood angels are not supposed to be near the black death, let alone the red thirst

Space wolves are not just furry marines but they DO fight with the ferocity of wolves, surely that means they are equal or near equal to any blood angel that has not succumbed to the black death


----------



## Katie Drake

Stephen_Newman said:


> Hate to break this little "thing" we have going on but can we keep this thread about the new Blood Angels and not whining like spoiled children about what we should want but are not getting-put it this way every blood angel getting the furious charge skill would be ridiculous, I mean they would be vastly overpowered and in my eyes they should match the other marine chapters since I especially do not see a son of sanguinius being more ferocious than a space wolf for example.


It's not anymore overpowered than having counter-attack, acute senses, a bolt pistol, bolter and combat weapon for less than the cost of a vanilla Tactical Marine. Remember what you mentioned about perspective?


----------



## Baltar

Katie Drake said:


> It's not anymore overpowered than having counter-attack, acute senses, a bolt pistol, bolter and combat weapon for less than the cost of a vanilla Tactical Marine. Remember what you mentioned about perspective?


100% spot on.


I would argue that the furious charge given to BA is representative of the background of the chapter.

Surely this can only be desirable...


----------



## Judas Masias

*New Codex Blood Angels cover*

I just found this on from the warp.com and i don't know if this has been posted already so sorry if it has. Enjoy









(BLOOD for the BLOOD GOD.....Wateaminit thats not right Dame i knew it a sec ago Oh Yeah..For Sanguinius)


----------



## Lord Reevan

Looks pretty cool. shows their shinyness. I wonder if they will make the black shoulder pad trim the norm now because it's in a good bit of artwork for them, the assault squad drawing in the current codex for example...


----------



## bitsandkits

its a fake judas, thats actually a picture of imperial fists that someone photo shopped last year

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=500058


----------



## Judas Masias

Well kiss my ass, sorry guys i let ya down. I thought i had some cool for everyone...DAME :headbutt::suicide::cray:


----------



## bitsandkits

Judas Masias said:


> Well kiss my ass, sorry guys i let ya down. I thought i had some cool for everyone...DAME :headbutt::suicide::cray:


dont worry about it, its a pretty damn good fake to be honest, i wouldnt be upset if that was the cover, its far better than the Nid codex cover art.
I think we will see the cover art pretty soon, maybe mid febuary on the GW site.


----------



## Winterous

bitsandkits said:


> dont worry about it, its a pretty damn good fake to be honest, i wouldnt be upset if that was the cover, its far better than the Nid codex cover art.
> I think we will see the cover art pretty soon, maybe mid febuary on the GW site.


The Nid cover is incredible.
Yes it's not as realistic as the 4th ed one, but it's interesting, fantastically well done, and gives perspective on how much they warp a planet during their invasion.


----------



## Captain Stillios

The Nid codex cover sucks and you know it.


----------



## Baltar

Looks pretty cool to me.


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Guys, this is NOT a thread about the Tyranid Cover Art. Stick to Blood Angels rumours please.


----------



## Judas Masias

Thanks Bits,and your right it is a good fake.


----------



## liforrevenge

One of the employees at my local GW was going on about how awesome the Furioso Librarian would be (saying he's gonna have a HUNDRED attacks!!! He is very dramatic) 

He pulled out a handful of dice and rolled them, and then re-rolled them, saying something about having a sanguinary high priest within 12 inches. He did that about 2 or three times.

I don't remember if they were to wound or to hit rolls, but I was wondering what in the world he was talking about. It only just occurred to me that he might have been letting out spoilers! Also, he as good as* told me there was a new Baal Predator kit, and no new Dante model.

*when I mentioned I was waiting to purchase a new Baal Pred, he seemed as if I caught him off guard.


----------



## dthwish09

Captain Stillios said:


> The Nid codex cover sucks and you know it.


cheers. 

I have to agree with the shineyness of this cover(bloodangels), it looks quite sleek and red, i'd say good job


----------



## Lord Reevan

I think with the new exalted having sleek tight armour there will be a lot more dante and mephiston conversions from those models which wouldn't be a bad idea. although Isee nothing wrong with the dante model to be honest. it's one that pisses all over the models released close to it and still holds it's own against new ones...


----------



## pathwinder14

*From BOLS:*

Hi everybody, here is the latest chatter we hear regarding Blood Angels Commander Dante. He sounds like a real monster:

Commander Dante
Master of the Chapter, Jump pack, Perdition Pistol, Fearless Artificier Armor, Iron Halo (2+/4+)
Death Mask: Commander Dante gains an additional attack in assault for each enemy attack that targets him and misses, capped at a maximum of +4
Axe Mortalis: +1 strength power weapon
Inspiring: Friendly units within 6" of Dante's Honour Guard are fearless, and Honour Guard units are scoring
Seen it all: For each enemy unit placed in reserve to either deepstrike or outflank, do the following:
-Any enemy HQ must make a Leadership rolloff versus Dante. If Dante wins, the unit must deploy normally with its army. If Dante loses, the unit may deploy as intended by the enemy player (This power has no effect on units which MUST deepstrike - pods, etc...).


----------



## Baltar

Sounds like more fiction to me.


----------



## pathwinder14

He's not getting eternal warrior. He no longer confers preferred enemy to any friendly unit within 12". He no longer reduces WS/BS for enemy within 6" of him. He no longer grants a chapter banner bonus. 

I personally loved the preferred enemy and reduction of WS/BS rules. That was why I took him. The current Dante put into a unit of Death Company is really nasty.

Boo to the rumored Dante.

All Dante needs is ternal Warrior, and the Axe Mortalis updated.


----------



## Baltar

If it's a rumour, then don't believe it. It's almost certain to be a load of bs.


----------



## Stella Cadente

considering how they just hand out eternal warrior to any old sod these days I wouldn't be surprised if they just eternal warrior'd every damn marine in the next codex.

eternal warrior has become the new rending, if someone hasn't got it, then assume its a misprint


----------



## Baltar

Hw will have it. Undoubtedly.

Yarrick has it, ffs.

Dante >>>>>> Yarrick


----------



## Katie Drake

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Hw will have it. Undoubtedly.
> 
> Yarrick has it, ffs.
> 
> Dante >>>>>> Yarrick


Dante doesn't have Eternal Warrior in the new Codex, though Mephiston does.


----------



## Crimson Shadow

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4nzgPbHlN...AAG9Q/-4Oa2OzofCs/s1600-h/shrink_n_rotate.jpg

This was on Bell of Lost Souls. It's supposedly an artists drawing of the Tantalus Lander. I'm not sure how much salt you need to take with it, but I have a feeling it's quite a bit.

And here's the link to the actual article:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/01/40k-rumor-tantalus-model-sighting.html


----------



## bitsandkits

it looks like someone has chopped up a thunderahawk in photo shot and re assembled it to fit the black out leak photo on the bottom right.


----------



## Vanchet

I fail to see how a Marine whos lived for 1100 years and cannot be eternal warrior, mephiston I could understand, unlocking his potential, but Dante??


----------



## Winterous

Vanchet said:


> I fail to see how a Marine whos lived for 1100 years and cannot be eternal warrior, mephiston I could understand, unlocking his potential, but Dante??


Think about it, you have to be some kind of special to be able to take a Lascannon to the chest and not be out for the count.
Yes, Dante is amongst the oldest living humans out there, but that doesn't instantly grant him immortality.


Yarrick has it, yes, and considering he has it, Dante probably deserves it to, but look at it another way.

Yarrick is a commissar, he is an example and discipline for his troops, if he falls in battle, what sort of example is that? He has to keep on fighting even if he has four broken limbs and cerebral palsy.

Dante is an ancient hero, however, his troops wouldn't stop fighting their hardest if he were to fall; he is a superhuman, he is ancient and skillful beyond belief, but he is not immortal, he can still be broken enough to become useless in combat, even if he tries his best.

Look at Lone Wolves now, they aren't gods walking, they aren't ancient or powerful or any such thing, they are merely insane berserkers who won't give up until they've died or killed half the enemy army.


I agree that Dante _should_ have it, but it's not ridiculous for him not to.


----------



## tu_shan82

The Real Sanguinius said:


> You keep on saying things as though they are fact.
> 
> Untill the new dex is no the shelf, please refrain. Nobody (including you) knows shit untill it's out.
> 
> It's a rumour.


Alright then it's rumored Dante has no Eternal Warrior. Happy?


----------



## Baltar

tu_shan82 said:


> Alright then it's rumored Dante has no Eternal Warrior. Happy?


Yes.

Because it's most likely not to be true


----------



## tu_shan82

Or then again it is true, Pedro is a Chapter Master and he has no Eternal Warrior. Just because you're a Chapter Master doesn't mean you automatically get Eternal Warrior, Azrael of the Dark Angels doesn't have it either.


----------



## Baltar

I see your point.

However, the very basis for eternal warrior, as a rule, implies that there is probably (within the space marines) no more suitable candidate for it than Dante.

Having eternal warrior... implies... that they are an eternal warrior....

Hard to find a more eternal warrior, among the space marines, than Dante...

This is all speculation, anyway.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord

Good, I'm sick of all the eternal warriors. I miss watching the little kids cry as their 400pt SC was killed by a PF/force weapon/meltagun.


----------



## Baron Spikey

Eternal Warrior= being an incredibly hardy being who refuses to just lay down and die

Dante is long lived, wise, and ferocious when the need takes him but I've not seen any fluff to attribute a level of hardiness beyond your average Chapter Master.

@The Real Sanguinius- you should really stop with your unrealistic fanboy wishes if your going to crap on any one elses.


----------



## CallumM27

We'll for any space marine to live as long as danta shows that he is very hardy and I personaly would love to see him with eternal warrior but I wouldn't care that much if they didn't. But I do feel that some people are taking the rumours as fact when their not. We all need to keep an open mind about this and wait till March white dwarf when they hopefully will start revealing more.


----------



## smfanboy

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Good, I'm sick of all the eternal warriors. I miss watching the little kids cry as their 400pt SC was killed by a PF/force weapon/meltagun.


you can better see eternal warrior as something of the game cause it is mor like Game>>fluff instead of Fluff>>game and with that I mean most of the lot that has eternal warrior also inivative 1 weapons so they wont get killed before they do a single strike. it has nothing to do with fluff.



also crying thats weak dude even though they are kids.


----------



## Baltar

Baron Spikey said:


> Eternal Warrior= being an incredibly hardy being who refuses to just lay down and die
> 
> Dante is long lived, wise, and ferocious when the need takes him but I've not seen any fluff to attribute a level of hardiness beyond your average Chapter Master.
> 
> @The Real Sanguinius- you should really stop with your unrealistic fanboy wishes if your going to crap on any one elses.


I didn't actually make any fanboy wishes. I commented on an article someone else linked, claiming to show some of the content of the new release. Hence my list, with comments. I didn't just think those up - they were listed further back in the thread.


----------



## pathwinder14

Winterous said:


> ...Yarrick is a commissar, he is an example and discipline for his troops, if he falls in battle, what sort of example is that? He has to keep on fighting even if he has four broken limbs and cerebral palsy...


When I read this I laughed so hard I shot tea out of my nose. Nice one. :good:


----------



## Winterous

pathwinder14 said:


> When I read this I laughed so hard I shot tea out of my nose. Nice one. :good:


Reading through it again I laughed too XD
Thanks


----------



## pathwinder14

*From BOLS:*

Hi everybody, here is the latest chatter we hear regarding that "Librarian Dreadnought" mentioned in the latest White Dwarf. He sounds like quite an interesting character:

*Absolutus*
Venerable Furioso Dreadnought
5 Attacks, Heavy Flamer, Multi-melta
_Tormented:_ Constantly plagued by the attentions of daemons scratching at his mind, Absolutus can only fire weapons if there is a friendly unit within 6" to focus his attentions.
_Unleashed by Battle:_ Absolutus grants fleet to all Furioso dreadnoughts within 6" (including himself)
There is no word of any transport options


----------



## Winterous

pathwinder14 said:


> *From BOLS:*
> 
> Hi everybody, here is the latest chatter we hear regarding that "Librarian Dreadnought" mentioned in the latest White Dwarf. He sounds like quite an interesting character:
> 
> *Absolutus*
> Venerable Furioso Dreadnought
> 5 Attacks, Heavy Flamer, Multi-melta
> _Tormented:_ Constantly plagued by the attentions of daemons scratching at his mind, Absolutus can only fire weapons if there is a friendly unit within 6" to focus his attentions.
> _Unleashed by Battle:_ Absolutus grants fleet to all Furioso dreadnoughts within 6" (including himself)
> There is no word of any transport options


Ooooh, he's a _character!_
That makes more sense.


----------



## Crimson Shadow

I thought I read on one of these 37 pages that he was a successor chapter SC. Are they going to make rules for chaplain and librarian dreads for all BA and successors? Or is he a unique occurence?


----------



## Katie Drake

Crimson Shadow said:


> I thought I read on one of these 37 pages that he was a successor chapter SC. Are they going to make rules for chaplain and librarian dreads for all BA and successors? Or is he a unique occurence?


He's a special character of the Flesh Tearers, I believe. That doesn't stop the Blood Angels, Angels Sanguine or anyone else using the Blood Angel Codex from using him, though.


----------



## Crimson Shadow

Katie Drake said:


> He's a special character of the Flesh Tearers, I believe. That doesn't stop the Blood Angels, Angels Sanguine or anyone else using the Blood Angel Codex from using him, though.


I figured we could do a "counts as" situation for the SC. I was curious if generic chaplain and librarian dreadnaught builds were going to be an option. Guess i should have phrased that better. :biggrin:


----------



## Katie Drake

Crimson Shadow said:


> I figured we could do a "counts as" situation for the SC. I was curious if generic chaplain and librarian builds were going to be an option. Guess i should have phrased that better. :biggrin:


Oh, oh. Well yeah, there'll be generic Librarians and Chaplains in the new book, likely with a similar number of upgrades to the ones in Codex: Space Marines.


----------



## Pearlay

*Blood Angel Rumors*

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/01/40k-rumors.html

"*Librarian Dreadnought*" mentioned in the latest White Dwarf. He sounds like quite an interesting character:

:wink:*Absolutus*:wink:
Venerable Furioso Dreadnought
5 Attacks, Heavy Flamer, Multi-melta
Tormented: Constantly plagued by the attentions of daemons scratching at his mind, Absolutus can only fire weapons if there is a friendly unit within 6" to focus his attentions.
Unleashed by Battle: Absolutus grants fleet to all Furioso dreadnoughts within 6" (including himself)
There is no word of any transport options
....................................................................................................
Force Organization Chart
Blood Angel FOC is divergant from the Ultramarine one:
-Dreadnoughts are heavy support.
-Furioso Dreads with droppods are fast attack.
-Twin scout entries are both elites, but one is scoring.
-Only dedicated ground transport is the Rhino (Razorbacks are out)
-Assault Squad and Tactical Squad are troops.
-Honour Guard can be troops if fielded with Dante.
-Jump pack units are in every FOC category except heavy support and HQ:
--Assault Squad - troops
--Honour Guard - elites
--Exalted - fast attack

:so_happy: Death Company is 0-1 and doesn't need a slot in the FOC

Units Rules
Tantalus Lander is a dedicated transport for everything in the army except tanks, Land Speeders and Exalted. Its weaponry is: :shok: 2 twin-linked assault cannons, 1 twin-linked special weapon.

Land Raider: Redeemer, Crusader and Standard

Terminator sergeants can get close combat wargear. There is a Terminator upgrade to allow shooting in an enemy phase.

Exalted: 4/4/4(5)/4/1/5/1+1/10/3+, jump troops, hit & run, furious charge, no red fury/combat tactics, power armor, stormbolter, power weapon, bolt pistol, no options, no transports.

k: Quite angelic: masterfully crafted slim armor, jump packs, mechanical wings, masks, long hair.

Named Characters
Erasmus: Furious charge, digital weapons (rending), master crafted combi melta: 18" S:8 AP:1 Assault 1, melta, reroll to hit, 4+ ward save, can chose one set of special rules: 
-squad ignores red fury
-red fury and preferred enemy
-rage and feel no pain

Mephiston: 7/7/5/5/3/7/4/10/2+, FnP, Fearless, Eternal Warrior, Fleet, 2 psychic powers per turn. 
More potent versions of Might of heroes, Transfixing Gaze and Blood Stasis powers: 

The gun of Victor's servitor is 36" S:6 AP:6 Assault6

Psychic Powers
Quickening: Infantry moves as beasts, jump troops and walkers gain fleet. 
Blood Stasis: 5" vortex of blood in base contact. Enemy models count as being in difficult terrain, and suffer one wound if they try to move and any of the distance dice shows a 1, Mephiston: can cast it in close combat centered on himself, and enemies attacking with a 1 suffer a wound.
Might of Heroes: one model in squad gets +D3 attacks, Mephiston: can cast it on himself.
Primarchs Grace: Squad may reroll dangerous terrain tests.
Transfixing Gaze: Target model must take a leadership roll off or not able to attack librarian, Mephiston: not able to attack any model.
Living Darkness:  A template which blocks line of sight.

Fluff
Background: mainly Blood Angels and 4 successor chapters with one page each:
-Blood Consuls
-Angels Sanguine
-Flesh Tearers
-Angels Vermillion 
............................................................................................
RULES:
Victor and Unholt: An HQ monstrous creature: 1/1/6/4/4/3/4/10/4+, with a Techmarine handler & big assault gun. 

Angels Sanguine Chapter Master Toledo: Rage and Fleet instead of Combat Tactics and Blood Rage.

Flesh Tearers Chapter Master Seth: Is in...

Sanguinary High Priest HQ: unit has: W:2 and grants a Rage (Blood Rage??) radius. 

Captain Erasmus Tycho: 3+ Dodge save, Pride special rule and no Blood Rage.

Up to *8* Dreadnoughts: (2 Named HQ dreads if you play a mix of Flesh Tearers/Blood Angels), 6 normal FOC dreads possible.

Tantalus Lander: 2 Twin Linked Assault Cannons, TL Plasmagun.

Guards of the Tower of Amareo: Jump Troops with high I, WS,BS and "Exalted Blades"( Frost axe rules)

Rhinos are fast: with a "severe damage table"

New Baal Predator and Venerable dreadnought: with twin close combat weapon options.

Death Company: lose rending, retain Feel No Pain, Furious Charge, and continue the effects of Furious Charge if they win combat!

MINIS:

Exalted Assault Squad: Winged jump packs, rapier-like blades, wrist-mounted stormbolters, masks.

Blood Angels Scouts: Scouts, but very post-apocalyptic feeling - like Fallout or Mad Max - chains, close combat weapons, the complete opposite to the generic neat vanilla scouts.

Blood Angel Assault Squad: Assault marines with Blood Angel regalia. (possible Melta pistol bits seen here).

Twin Death Company releases: Two boxes with jump packs, one black armor, one red armor, bareheaded, banner, storm shields.

Tantalus Lander: kind of flying droppod with wings, land raider front, assault cannons under fuselage

Victor and Unholt: basic Techmarine and a new creature: a Tech-Hulk stitched together from a bunch of techno gear-(right arm is a four barreled cannon)

Venerable Dreadnought

Predator (with Baal variant parts)
...........................................................................................
New conversion kits similar to the ones made for the space wolves. These kits are said to be EXTRAORDINARY (I mean.. beautiful!), with a level of detail similar to that of the models in space hulk (or even better). (PS this seems quite certain, it has been confirmed by my local GW seller, who also stated some big news about BA may be revealed at the italian games day).

SOME informations about the rules

-The codex will allow the player to field a top notch assault army: assault squads will be a troop choice, with options similar to those of the new gray hunters in the SW dex: 2Xspecial weapons and no heavy weapons at all (of course). Sergents will be similar to those of the SM dex (more options: thunder hammer, LC and such).

- a psionic power called "vortex of blood", or something like that, will give the caster a CC attacks bonus equal to the number of models in base contact (or even in combat radius?! but it would be too powerful..)

-New indipendent characters.


----------



## liforrevenge

"Blood Angels Scouts: Scouts, but very post-apocalyptic feeling - like Fallout or Mad Max - chains, close combat weapons, the complete opposite to the generic neat vanilla scouts."

I love how appropriate this is considering Baal's history. These rumors are sounding so awesome, if a tenth of them have any base in fact I have high hopes for this codex!


----------



## Pedro

8 dreads?:grin:

Mephiston kicks aaahhhhh:biggrin:

Exalted and conversion kits, hmm 

When is the mentioned Italian game day?


----------



## OIIIIIIO

I really only have one question ... is it possible to take more than 5 friggin termies in a squad?


----------



## Winterous

Talthewicked said:


> I really only have one question ... is it possible to take more than 5 friggin termies in a squad?


Supposedly yes.


----------



## pathwinder14

*From BOLS:*

Mephiston 
- costs: x points + x (this is a guess of the authors and not part of the actual rumours) 
- stats:gigantic, better than before 
- special rules: ATSKNF, IC, Lord of Death, psyker, knows all 6 psychic powers 
- weapons: Scarlet Fang, Force weapon, Plasma pistol, grenades, Psychic hood 
- Lord of Death: no Red Thirst (army wide special rule, if leadershiptest fails wehen enemy is in 12" unit has rage), no Furious charge (otherwise army wide special rule), instead: Feel no Pain, Fearless, Eternal Warrior 
-Scarlet Fang: can replace instant death power with one of the other psychic powers. He can use this power without psychic test and it no longer counts as psychic power but instead as normal special rule. A psychic hoodfor example is useless against this power. 

Furioso Librarian: 
- costs: expensive, way more than a Dreadnought (unclear if this is also speculation or part of the rumour) 
- stats: common Dreadnought stats with some small spikes. He is a Furioso too. 
- rules: walker, Furioso Supremo, Red Thirst, Furious Charge 
- items: 2 dreadnought ccw, one with melta gun, one with stormbolter, smoke launcher, searchlight 
normal options like heavy flamer 
- can take 2 powers: Quickening, Might of Heroes, Shockwave 
- transports: Drop Pod, Tantalus Drop Ship 
- Furioso Supremo: can cast one power with leadership x. He takes a glancing hit from every Peril of the warp attack. Otherwise he doesn't count as psyker in every regard! 

Psychic powers: 
Quickening: used at the start of the turn, gives (only the psyker) beast movement. If the psyker is not infantery, he gets fleet. He has to be on the table to cast it (comment from me: to my understanding that means you can't use it in a transport). If Mephiston is casting this spell, his unit gets the faster movement too. 

Blood Stasis: shooting power, x" range, 5" blast, every non vehicle unit under the blast template counts as being in difficult terrain. If they move they get a Sx APx hit for every 1 on the difficult terrain test. If they shoot, they get a S5 AP- hit for every 1 on the roll to hit. 

Might of Heroes: used at the start of the assault phase. one model in 6" (that includes the psyker) gets D3 extra attacks 

Primarchs Grace: used at the start of the turn, Librarian and unit can ignore terrain until the end of the round 

Living Darkness: shooting power, x" range, 5" blast, stays in place until the start of the next Blood Angel turn. No line of sight can be traced through the marker except the targeting unit has Acute Senses USR 

Shockwave: shooting power, vehicles in xx" get a Sx AP1 hit against its side armour. in 6" 2 hits and in 3" 3 hits. cover saves are not allowed. 

Transfixing Gaze (Mephiston only): begin of the assault phase, hinders enemy to attack, like Genestealer Broodlord, on a draw nothing happens 

Vortex of Blood (Mephiston only): can use it before he attcks. every model in base to base contact makes a Toughness test. If it fails it gets a wound. saves are allowed. If at least one wound was caused every successful hit roll from this on until the end of the round against Mephiston has to be rerolled.


----------



## Lord Reevan

goddamn he sounds good. and Note no eternal warrior on that post. that whole thing is completely up in the air...


----------



## BrotherYorei

pathwinder14 said:


> *From BOLS:*
> 
> Mephiston
> - costs: x points + x (this is a guess of the authors and not part of the actual rumours)
> - stats:gigantic, better than before
> - special rules: ATSKNF, IC, Lord of Death, psyker, knows all 6 psychic powers
> - weapons: Scarlet Fang, Force weapon, Plasma pistol, grenades, Psychic hood
> - Lord of Death: no Red Thirst (army wide special rule, if leadershiptest fails wehen enemy is in 12" unit has rage), no Furious charge (otherwise army wide special rule), instead: Feel no Pain, Fearless,_* Eternal Warrior *_
> -Scarlet Fang: can replace instant death power with one of the other psychic powers. He can use this power without psychic test and it no longer counts as psychic power but instead as normal special rule. A psychic hoodfor example is useless against this power.


lord reevan, he does have eternal warrior according to this bit o' rumor.


----------



## flankman

a BA with eternal warrior...this HAS to be fake


----------



## Winterous

flankman said:


> a BA with eternal warrior...this HAS to be fake


..?
I don't understand.


----------



## Katie Drake

Winterous said:


> ..?
> I don't understand.


*whisper* No Blood Angels have Eternal Warrior right now. *whisper*


----------



## Winterous

Katie Drake said:


> *whisper* No Blood Angels have Eternal Warrior right now. *whisper*


Ooooooooh.


----------



## Lord Reevan

BrotherYorei said:


> lord reevan, he does have eternal warrior according to this bit o' rumor.


did not see that at all sorry.... Still gonna say it's all up in the air.... liek I find it hard to believe that so much infor has been leaked


----------



## Winterous

Lord Reevan said:


> did not see that at all sorry.... Still gonna say it's all up in the air.... liek I find it hard to believe that so much infor has been leaked


From what I understand, they get a pretty solid version of the codex written early on, and from there it's just tweaking (the hard part).


----------



## Baltar

Katie Drake said:


> *whisper* No Blood Angels have Eternal Warrior right now. *whisper*


Yes, the *right now* part is certainly true, because codex is not out *right now*.

So you could also say that all of the blood angels have Eternal Warrior, *right now*, because frankly you have no idea (as does anyone), because the 'dex isn't here yet.


----------



## maddermax

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Yes, the *right now* part is certainly true, because codex is not out *right now*.
> 
> So you could also say that all of the blood angels have Eternal Warrior, *right now*, because frankly you have no idea (as does anyone), because the 'dex isn't here yet.


They're talking about the current codex, not the new one. So, in the current blood angels Codex, there is no eternal warrior for any blood angels at the moment. And Katie D has a very very good understanding of what's in the Blood Angels book *right now*  trust me :laugh:.

So yes, Dante and Mephiston should probably both get it  other than that... well, hopefully they won't be handing it out like candy. The new stuff is sounding pretty awesome altogether, I just hope they don't go overboard with the specialist stuff.


----------



## pathwinder14

So I called the chicago Battle Bunker to see if GW was aware of the massive amount of rumors floating around. Rep said no, but it did not matter as the codex was finished and paper copies were being distributed to different places for playtesting.

Looks like we're in the final stages of development for the codex folks....


----------



## Crimson Shadow

tu_shan82 said:


> Background
> 
> A little bit of background: another main theme of the codex is that the curse is becoming stronger. In reaction to this there is a kind of philosophical schism inside the chapter - nothing like civil war but an ongoing dispute. The Sanguinians try to adhere to the principle of their primarch and take the curse as a test of character. They try to overcome the affects and stay as civil as possible. Dante is the leader of this faction and it is the more influential. The Faustians however try to use the curse. They believe it was a gift of their dying Primarch to his children, that he gave them his strength. But it was wasted for millenia by overly hesitant chapter masters. The Faustians were a minor group and only prominent inside the Flesh Tearer Chapter. The ascend of the Lord of Death however sparked a fast growth of this group. Mephiston was the living proof that the black rage was not a curse but a only locked door on the way to the full potential of the Blood Angels. Sanguinary Priest Faustus is the most influential member. He is the lord of the tower of Amareo and has studied the black rage for centuries. The successor chapter have similiar groups. The only exceptions are the Flesh Tearers and Angels Sanguine. The former are all Faustians, the latter all Sanguinians.
> 
> As well as the Blood Angels the Codex will feature the Angels Sanguine, the Flesh Tearers, Angels Vermilion and Blood Consuls with a page dedicated to each.
> 
> Contents Page
> 
> page -26 background
> 27 combat squads, red fury, furious charge, they shall know no fear
> 28 Commander
> 29 Sanguinary Priest
> 30 Chaplain
> 31 Librarian
> 32 Tactical Squad
> 33 Assault Squad
> 34 Devastator Squad
> 35 Death Company
> 36 Terminator Squad
> 37 Honour Guard
> 38 Dreadnought
> 39 Furioso Dreadnought
> 40 Scouts
> 41 Initiate Scouts
> 42 Bikes
> 43 Scoutbikes
> 44 Land Speeder
> 45 Exalted
> 46 Techmarine/Razorback
> 47 Rhino
> 48 Drop Pod
> 49 Tantalus
> 50 Predator
> 51 Baal Predator
> 52 Whirlwind/Vindicator
> 53 Land Raider
> 54 Commander Cervan Dante, Chaptermaster of the Blood Angels
> 55 Mikhael Faustus, Sanguinor of the Blood Angels, Exemplar of the Host
> 56-57 Mephiston, Chief Librarian of the Blood Angels, Lord of Death
> 58 Erasmus Tycho, Captain of the 3. Company of the Blood Angels
> 59 Reo Lemartes, Chaplain of the Blood Angels, Guardian of the Lost
> 60 Victor Nergal, Master of the Forge of the Blood Angels
> 61 Moriar the Chosen, Death Company Dreadnought of the Blood Angels
> 62 Hieri Lorenzo, Sergeant of the First Company of the Blood Angels
> 63 Absolutus, Dreadnought of the Flesh Tearers, Furioso Supremo
> 64 Gabriel Seth, Chaptermaster of the Flesh Tearers
> 65 Toledo Astorath, Chaptermaster of the Angels Sanguine
> 66-72 wargear
> 73 psychic powers
> 
> Rules
> 
> Have 'And They Shall Know No Fear' and Combat Sqauds as per codex spacemarines in addition all Blood Angels have Furious Charge and Red Fury.
> 
> Red Fury: Unit must pass a leadership test if enemy is in 12" or they are subject to the Rage USR. Exalted, Baal Initiates, Sanguinary High Priests and Chaplains are immune.
> 
> Exalted Blades: Powerweapon that grants +1 Strength to the wielder.
> 
> HQ
> 
> Commander : Has all the same rules for a normal Spacemarine Company Master but with Red Fury and Furious Charge. May take a company command squad.
> 
> Sanguinary High Priest : All models within 12" are immune to Red Fury. In addition the sqaud he leads has the Feel no Pain USR.
> 
> Chaplain: Has the same rules as a normal chaplain from Codex Spacemarines but with Furious Charge and being immune to Red Fury. When leading a squad they are immune to Red Fury.
> 
> Librarian: Follows the same rules as a Librarian from Codex Spacemarines but with Red Fury and Furious Charge. Has access to 7 new powers.
> 
> Psychic Powers
> 
> Quickening: Infantry moves as beasts, jump troops and walkers gain fleet.
> Blood Stasis: Range 12", Large blast template. All models under the blast template count as being in difficult terrain, and suffer a S10 AP1 hit if they try to move and any of the distance dice shows a 1. If they try to fire they suffer a S5 AP- hit for every roll of a 1 to hit.
> Might of Heroes: one model in squad gets +D3 attacks.
> Primarchs Grace: Squad may reroll dangerous terrain tests.
> Living Darkness: A small blast template can be placed within 6" which blocks line of sight unless the unit firing through it has the Acute Senses USR.
> Shockwave: All vehicles within 12" recieve a single S6 AP1 hit to their side armour. Vehicles within 6" suffer two hits and vehicles within 3" suffer three hits.
> 
> Cezzo Dante: Chapter Master of the Blood Angels- Armed with the Axe Mortalis which is a master-crafted exalted blade, master crafted perdition pistol, which has a range of 12" not 6" like normal inferno pistols, and wears artificer armour and an iron halo.
> He is Fearless and immune to Red Fury as is his honour guard or any other squad he leads. All Blood Angels within 6" are also fearless.
> The Death Mask of Sanguinius allows +1 attack for every attack that targets him specifically and misses up to a maximum of +4 attacks.
> Has the rule. 'Has Seen It All' which means that during deployment all deepstriking or outflanking enemy reserves have to roll a Ld test against Dante and if Dante wins they have to be deployed at the begining of the game. This has no effect on units that must deepstrike like units in drop pods.
> 
> Gabriel Seth: Chapter Master of the Flesh Tearers - Armed with an eviscirator that re-rolls to wound against opponants with toughness 5 or more. He wears power armour and an iron halo.
> Any army led by Gabriel Seth replaces Combat Tactics and Red Fury for Fleet and Rage. (Meaning they have Fleet, Rage and Furious Charge........Nasty.)
> His eviscirator is double edged and is actually said to be longer than he is with a long grip of about 4 handspans. His power armour has a few scrolls on it and his back pack has a cloak and small wings on it. The trim on his right shoulder pauldron is shaped like a saw blade and his left sholder pauldron has a flesh tearers symbol with a small wing attached to it. He is running forward whilst pulling his blade back for a side sweep yelling as he does. His head is bald with a small amount of bionics.
> 
> Telesto Astorath: Chapter Master of the Angels Sanguine - Eqquiped with an exalted blade, artificer armour, jump pack and a storm shield. He and any squad he leads is Fearless. Any army led by Astorath replaces Combat Tactics and Red Fury with Stubborn. Exalted may re-roll hit and run rolls when he is present.
> His armour is said to resemble Mephistons ie: Looking like a flayed corpse but without the robes. He has a single engined jump pack with wings on it. The model has an axe with the haft looking like someones spine. He holds it in a two handed overhead grip looking as if he is about to bring it down on his enemies head. He is yelling and has long flowing hair.
> 
> Erasmus Tycho: Captain of the Blood Angels 3rd Company - Eqquiped with a master crafted combi-melta that can fire up to 18". His digital weapons confer rending and he has a special rule which allows him to choose which special rules apply to him to represent the different points in his career.
> - Tycho and his squad ignores red fury. (Second war for Armageddon)
> - Tycho is subject to red fury and has preferred enemy. (Post second war for Armageddon)
> - Tycho has is subject to Rage and Feel no Pain. (Third war for Armageddon)
> 
> Mephiston: Chief Librarian of the Blood Angels, Lord of Death - Eqquiped with a master-crafted force-weapon and is rumoured to have the following statline WS7 BS6 S5 T5 W3 I7 A4 Ld10 Sv2+. Mephiston is immune to Red Fury and also has Fleet, Feel no Pain and Eternal Warrior.
> He has all 6 Blood Angels psychic powers in addition to his force weapon ability to kill outright.
> In addition he has a special rule called "Scarlet Fang" in which he may sacrifice the instant death ability of his force weapon to take one of two extra psychic powers detailed below however this power no longer counts as a psychic power but as a special ability which is automatically used without the need for a psychic test and so cannot be countered by psychic hoods, runes of warding, aegis armour...etc. These are as follows.
> 
> Blood Vortex: Every model in base contact with Mephiston must take a toughness test or take a wound with saves allowed. If one or more wounds are taken by the enemy and they survive they must re-roll all sucessful to hit rolls.
> 
> Transfixing Gaze: Target model must take a leadership roll off or not able to attack any model not just Mephiston.
> 
> Reo Lemartes: Chaplain of the Blood Angels, Guardian of the Lost - Eqquiped as a chaplain and follows all the rules for Chaplains but must join the death company. Death company sqaud led by Lemartes remains under the effects of Furious Charge in subsequent turns and never loses it so they stay S4(5) and I(5) whilst he remains alive.
> The model itself is described as Lemartes standing on some ruble pointing his bolt pistol at the enemy, his crozius held in his left hand which is loose at his side and topped with a double headed eagle. His torso has a jump pack harness with the jump pack having the blood angels symbol on both exhuast port. His armour is covered in rivets and scrollwork with the left shoulder having a blood angels icon whilst the right has the top half of a skull. His helmet is a haloed skull though the halo is less pronounced than it is now with pipes going into the side of the jaw.
> 
> Victor Nergal: Blood Angels Master of the Forge - Has same stat-line and rules for a master of the forge. Is accompanied by Unholt a servitor construct with a four barrelled cannon for a right arm that has the following profile WS1 BS1 S6 T4 W4 I3 A4 Ld10 Sv 4+. The cannon has the following profile Range 36" S6 AP6 Assault6.
> 
> Absolutus: Dreadnought of the Flesh Tearers, Furioso Supremo - Was once a librarian in the Flesh Tearers before being intered into a dreadnought. He has 5 attacks and has a heavy flamer and meltagun.
> He has the rule "Unleashed in Battle" by which he confers the Fleet USR to all Furisio dreadnoughts within 6".
> Has the rule "Tormented" by which he cannot fire his heavy flamer and meltagun unless there is a friendly unit within 6" to focus his attention from the daemons constantly scratching at his mind.
> Also rumoured to have the rule "Furioso Supremo" which allows him to take one psychic test on Ld10.
> May take any two of the following psychic powers, Quickening, Might of Heroes and Shockwave. If he fails a psychic test and suffers a perils of the warp attack he suffers a single glancing hit.
> 
> Mikhael Faustus: Sanguinor of the Blood Angels - He has armour very similar to Dante and wields a broad-bladed powersword. Very little is known about him but he does something to improve the effects of red-fury rather than supress it like normal sanguinary priest does.
> 
> Moriar the Chosen: Death Compant Dreadnought - Death company Furiso dreadnought with melta gun and flamer. Retains Feel no Pain if victorious in the assault phase. It is rumoured that he can take a furioso dreadnought bodyguard.
> 
> Troops
> 
> Tactical Squad- As per C: SM but with Red Fury and Furious Charge.
> The Veteran Sergeant is rumored to have an auspex that allows heavy weapons to be re-rolled. Sergeant may take an inferno pistol as wargear. Las-cannons are cheaper and the squad may take Land Raiders as transports.
> 
> Assault Squad- As per C: SM but with Red Fury and Furious Charge. Sergeant may take an inferno pistol.
> 
> Elites
> 
> Death Company - Loose Rending but retain Feel no Pain and Furious Charge. They are subject to Rage if not led by a chaplain. If they win a combat they stay under the effects of Furios Charge for the next turn. Two models can take powerweapons or powerfists. Though they are deployed with Elites they do not fill any FOC slots at all.
> 
> Blood Angels Scouts - Follows all the rules for scout sqauds as per C: SM. Despite being elites they may still claim objectives like troops and may take a Landspeeder Storm as a transport.
> 
> Initiate Scouts - Have yet to be fully trained as scouts. They have a very feral Mad Max look about them being eqquiped with bolt pistols and close combat weapons that include chains and clubs. They are immune to Red Fury but have Fleet
> 
> Honour Guard - Have WS5 and 2 attacks each. They can assault after deep striking and have a wide variety of eqquipment options including jump packs.
> 
> Techmarine - As per C: SM but with Red Fury and Furious Charge.
> 
> Venerable Dreadnought - Follow the same rules for venerable dreadnoughts as per C: SM but with Red Fury and Furious Charge. Twin linked las-cannon cheaper.
> 
> Terminators - As per C: SM but may take mixed squads. May upgrade one model to Hiri Lorenzo: Sergeant of the First Company.
> 
> Hiri Lorenzo: Sergeant of the First Company - Eqquiped with an exalted blade and storm bolter.
> Has the Overwatch rule which allows his squad to fire in the enemies shooting phase once per game.
> 
> Fast Attack
> 
> Exalted - Eqquiped with exalted blades,wrist mounted storm bolters and jump packs. They have Hit and Run. They are immune to red fury. The models wear masks and have long flowing hair.
> 
> Spacemarine Bikes: As per C: SM but with Red Fury and Furious Charge. Inferno pistol avaiable to the veteran sergeant.
> 
> Landspeeders: As per C: SM but with Red Fury and Furious Charge.
> 
> Scout Bikes: As per C: SM but with Red Fury and Furious Charge.
> 
> Tantalus Lander: Has two twin linked assault cannons and a twin linked plasma gun. Armour values of 13/11/10. Has an assault ramp similar to the Land Raider. May carry either 16 Infantry, 8 Jump Infantry, 5 Terminators or 1 Dreadnought.
> 
> Furioso Dreadnought/Drop Pod: A Furioso dreadnought in a drop pod is now fast attack.
> 
> Heavy Support
> 
> Devestator Squad: As per C: SM but with Red Fury and Furious Charge. Las-cannons cheaper.
> 
> Whirlwind: As per C: SM.
> 
> Predator: As per C: SM.
> 
> Baal Predator: Possibility of a new model.
> 
> Land Raider: As per CM.
> 
> Land Raider Crusader: As per CM.
> 
> Land Raider Redeemer: As per CM.
> 
> Furioso Dreadnought: Has twin dreadnought close combat weapons. If it takes a drop pod it becomes fast attack instead. Has Red Fury and Furious Charge.
> 
> Dreadnought : As per C: SM but with Red Fury and Furious Charge.
> 
> Vindicator - As per C: SM
> 
> Transports
> 
> Rhinos - Will have overcharged engines which allow them to move 18". However they must pass a difficult terrain test otherwise the vehicle is destroyed as it flips over.
> 
> Razorbacks - Will only be avaliable to honour guard and company commanders but As per C: SM.
> 
> Land Raiders - Will be avaliable to tactical squads as a transport option.
> 
> Drop Pods - As per C: SM


So I have to ask, what do we do with our VAS that have powerweapons? Based on this, only the Exalted and Honor Guards will have access to power weapons, and they require a remodel of assault troops. At least we can put flamers in our RAS, but no melta or plasmas. I hope there's more options that haven't been leaked yet.


----------



## tu_shan82

You'd be able to use your VAS models as Honor Guards, as I can see them being able to take PW/PF plus meltas, plasmas, and flamers as well.


----------



## tristanvdputten

Katie Drake said:


> It's on the B&C. If I'm not feeling lazy I'll get it from there and post it up here later.


could you post he pics or a link you made me curiues:shok:

please?


----------



## tristanvdputten

does any body knows someone who is play testing the codex?

Yay, 40 pages long rumour thread:victory:


----------



## Bindi Baji

tristanvdputten said:


> does any body knows someone who is play testing the codex?


play testing will have finished awhile back, so all the input recieved can be used before the codex goes to print


----------



## MaidenManiac

tristanvdputten said:


> does any body knows someone who is play testing the codex?


Thats irrelevant right now. Play testing is long since over. The Codex is most likely already printed too. WD is printed 3 months in advance, and if nothing has changed then Codices/Armybooks are too.


Big thanks to tu_shan82 for THIS!

Im personally looking forwards to the points details. Red Fury aint even near compensation for Furious Charge on the whole army for them to stay equal in points with normal SMs. I fully expect BA tacticals costing 3 points more then vanilla SMs, and since Furious Charge is even better on models with more attacks I certainly think that RAS will be up equally much at least. Elite units is a bit more hard to judge though, but one thing is for sure, TLC Terminators w Furious Charge is damn good stuff:read:


----------



## Stella Cadente

tristanvdputten said:


> does any body knows someone who is play testing the codex?


play testing??, what the hell is that?, you do realize this is Games Workshop.


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

MaidenManiac said:


> Thats irrelevant right now. Play testing is long since over. The Codex is most likely already printed too. WD is printed 3 months in advance, and if nothing has changed then Codices/Armybooks are too.
> 
> 
> Big thanks to tu_shan82 for THIS!
> 
> Im personally looking forwards to the points details. Red Fury aint even near compensation for Furious Charge on the whole army for them to stay equal in points with normal SMs. I fully expect BA tacticals costing 3 points more then vanilla SMs, and since Furious Charge is even better on models with more attacks I certainly think that RAS will be up equally much at least. Elite units is a bit more hard to judge though, but one thing is for sure, TLC Terminators w Furious Charge is damn good stuff:read:


Remeber, theres always Grey Hunters, who are 15 points. I wouldn't be surprised if Blood Angels stayed at 16 points.


----------



## timsmith

Im with wolf lord skoll on this, i dont believe there will be a massive increase in points maybe 1 to say 17. I wonder if they will be like normal tac's that you have 2 buy 10 in order 2 get special weapon and HW. 

Are we expecting BP and CCW on tac's? if not i would expect them 2 be 15 points same as grey hunters. Must say its looking rather sexy. Is there likely to be new plastic tacticals?? I'd like to know as im thinking of getting some now and painting them up. 
cheers guys
Tim


----------



## Aramoro

I'm kinda hoping Blood Angels get to keep their tactical option from the current codex, so 5 Man Special weapons squads. They get one advantage ability and one disadvantage, and even then the advantage of furious charge on regular tacts is less so. They'll be 15-16 points. 

Aramoro


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord

15pts for a MEq with Furious charge, ATSKNF, grenades, bolter and boltpistol seems pretty fair. If they have a CCW aswell, then they'll probably increase in pts.


----------



## timsmith

also dont forget if the free deathcampy models are still in then there will be a points increase to reflect that as there was in the last codex/magazine/piece of crap. so i recon if thats the case then 16 seems pretty fair without the BP and CCW


----------



## Crimson Shadow

Based on what I've read, I don't think the Death Company are free anymore. You have to purchase them, but they don't take up an FOC chart now, so I guess that balances out. If we have to purchase the death company now, instead of them being "free" like they were before, I could actually see the prices of some units going down, or at least falling in line with C:SM or C:SW.


----------



## tristanvdputten

Crimson Shadow said:


> Based on what I've read, I don't think the Death Company are free anymore. You have to purchase them, but they don't take up an FOC chart now......


death company didnt used up FOC in the last pdf codex


----------



## tu_shan82

Death Company have never taken up a FOC slot, although they did count towards your squad allowance in 2nd edition.


----------



## Crimson Shadow

tu_shan82 said:


> Death Company have never taken up a FOC slot, although they did count towards your squad allowance in 2nd edition.


That must be what I'm remembering.


----------



## Underground Heretic

I'd say a 1-3 point per model drop on assault squads would be about right, keeping your squads a few points above codex. Your tactical squads could be copy/pasted from the codex for all I care, but I think your assault squads should pay a bit. Yes, I'm a Tau player, I couldn't give a crap about tactical squads when I have three assault squads breathing down my neck, so take my bias as is. If these rumors are true your assault squads should have two distinct advantages on codex assault squads:

1. Scoring:While no codex assault marine can hold a point, your assault marines can. This adds to their utility on the battlefield and should count for something.

2. Furious Charge: This basically forces the codex player to play his squad better, one on one. If the codex player gets the charge, he has a good chance of winning, as does any assault unit. If he does not, your +1 S +1 I will seal a victory for you, barring horrible rolling on your part.


----------



## Lord Reevan

From everything said about the DC in the previous pages they are not Mandatory but remember that in the current codex they are not mandatory either. You technically pay for them but you do not have to field them. For everything said right now they could still be just like that, Not mandatory but still mandatory cost. 

If they make them unnecessary to field then they will seriously drop a lot of the BA character and I would not like that... I'd prefer to have them without rending(making the extra pts in squads cheaper obviously) then not a constant BA feature. they're as well known as the big blood drop


----------



## pathwinder14

The Death Company are the most popular Blood Angels squad of all time. I don't see them being made unnecessary but I do see them as optional. 

I personally like the way they are currently purchased and played. I also like the rending.


----------



## Lord Reevan

well having an option that has a very big drawback if you don't use them like it is now. or old 3rd ed version. that was good and characterful if not a little random.....


----------



## Pedro

I think it is only logical to have the DC free and thus paid for in the other squads...after all, it is a part of the army, since you chose BA, you have to include (or at least pay for) DC...you must take all the good with the bad, too...otherwise it does not make sense. Otherwise it is just red ultramarines...the mandatory for having to pay for the DC is what pushes me from the vanilla dex more than some scoring units. It is more defining, it gives much more personality to the chapter as a whole. Someone cannot take Razorbacks, someone has to ride on a bike, someone gets a small part of his soldiers go nuts...
You can restrain the poor sods and have them not partake in battle, but they come from the teams you dispatched for the mission...therefore, your loss.

And what would be even more awesome would be if you had to buy the units as vanillas and then, at the dawn of the battle, you had to choose one soldier for each your squad to act as a Death Company and formed them from the actual units...they would get some unified bonus for being DC, and you could have a Chaplain, one termie, one tactical and two assaulters in the DC (or all tacticals etc.)


----------



## Underground Heretic

News from www.40kings.de on Death Company and Sanguinary Priests:


> Death Company:
> 
> FOC: Elites (don't occupy a slot), unique
> 
> Cost: Somewhere around 25p per model
> 
> Size: 5 DC Marines
> 
> Profile: Regular marine profile, with more attacks
> 
> Equipment: CCW/Boltpistol, Artificer Armor, no Granades
> 
> Special Rules: ASKNF, FNP, FC, Fearless, Black Rage
> 
> Black Rage: Rage as per rulebook + constantly count as attacking for furious charge (until they lose combat).
> 
> Additional rules:
> 
> - If 2 or more Tactical Squads are in the list the DC may get a Rhino, Razorback, Drop Pod or Tantalus Lander as transport.
> 
> - If 1 or more Assault Squads are in the list the DC may get Jump Packs for 10 (or more) Points per model.
> 
> - If 1 or more Devastator Squads are in the list the DC may buy up to 5 more DC Marines.
> 
> - If 1 or more Honor Guard Squads are in the list the DC may buy Powerweapons, Powerfists and Powerclaws (for the usual prices).
> 
> - An Chaplain in 6" of the DC makes the lose Black Rage and gain Red Fury.
> 
> 
> Sanguinius Priest:
> 
> Cost: Similar to an Obliterator
> 
> Profile: As a chaplain
> 
> FOC: HQ
> 
> Equipment: Power Armor, CCW/Boltpistol, Krak-/Fraggranades, Exsanguinator
> (can buy Red Grail (around 30p), terminator armor, bike, jumppack, etc.)
> 
> Special Rules: ATSKNF, FC, Red Fury
> 
> Exsanguinator: Marines in 12" can ignore Red Fury OR Marines in 12" can take Red Fury test with 3D6; if they fail they gain prefered enemy for the rest of the players turn. Units that have 'rage' automaticly get prefered enemy.
> 
> Red Grail: Gives Sanguinius Priest and his squad FNP.


The Sanguinary Priest looks like it will be a great HQ choice for the army allowing the army to control the Red Fury rule, which seems to give Rage and Preferred Enemy, for the remainder of the player turn. If the points are any where near correct, which I don't expect I'd add a few, you can control the downside of the army (possibly raging into an unkillable target) and gain benefits when you want. Imagine if you will, an assault squad with Furious Charge and Preferred Enemy...


----------



## Katie Drake

Yeah we've been dissecting that post over on the B&C and we've come to the conclusion that some if not all of that stuff is crap. It just doesn't make sense. Death Company with artificer armor but no grenades? Needing Devastators to take a larger unit? Yeah... no.


----------



## Underground Heretic

Argh! I hate falling behind, would you mind sending me a link, I can't figure out where the rumors are on B&C. That being said those would be a nice balancing factor for the BA, forcing more of a company feel for an uber DC. I've still to beat you bloody marines with my tau!


----------



## Crimson Shadow

I'm with Katie. I can't imagine them giving the oldest, best armor to the unit most likely to die a grisly death in close combat. 

I can get on board with "if you have this squad then your death company can have these upgrades", but devastators being the only way to expand the squad seems odd. I do like the possibility of the DC getting power weapons and powerfists, although a PF seems like a waste of the +1 I from the FC. 

I do hope that they allow the DC to take meltabombs though, as I would rather pay for those than a PF for them.


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

I would have thought Tacticals to get more models, and Devastators to get the transports. Makes more sense that way.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

what do you think that the codex will cost? $25 or $30? Or will they get really greedy?


----------



## Winterous

Talthewicked said:


> what do you think that the codex will cost? $25 or $30? Or will they get really greedy?


The same as other codices?
Probably a little less, considering it's just the Blood Angels, and each of the 3 main versions are supposedly getting 1 page of fluff each.


----------



## Baltar

Hahaha, that rumour about the DC is hilarious, at best.

FNP, Artificer armour, furious charge, possibility of power weapons, possibility of jump packs, fearless, extra attacks on top...

Yeah...

right...

As if that would actually be true.


----------



## Stella Cadente

I wouldn't put it past GW with all the power creep, just think if each codex gets more powerful than the last by the time they reach dark eldar they are gonna be maxed out stats wise and have a 2+/2+ save which can never be ignored.


----------



## BrotherYorei

i see DC as having FNP, furious charge, power weapons (maybe) and options for jump packs or rhino like they do now.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

I see DC as an expendable unit, as they should be. I would think that they would effectively strip them down as much as possible and send them to war. Just my thoughts


----------



## Baltar

I always considered artificer armour as something given to unique or independent characters.

Never to squad members. It doesn't make any sense.


----------



## Winterous

Talthewicked said:


> I see DC as an expendable unit, as they should be. I would think that they would effectively strip them down as much as possible and send them to war. Just my thoughts


Yeah, they're like Lone Wolves, they WANT to die in battle, because they've gone insane.
Perhaps they'll give them a similar rule?
Like DC contribute a Kill Point against you if they haven't died by the end of the battle.
It'd be fluffy, as having to be executed is more of a dishonour than dying a glorious death (Love Wolf)



The Real Sanguinius said:


> I always considered artificer armour as something given to unique or independent characters.
> 
> Never to squad members. It doesn't make any sense.


You're right, it is.
For that reason, they will not have Artificer Armour, that would be ridiculous.


----------



## Necrosis

One of the higher ups (above manager) was visiting my GW and accidentally said something about plastic death company coming out before covering his month and saying "woops".


----------



## Baltar

The manager of the store in Canterbury has some of the models already. They are sweet.


----------



## Jezlad

The Real Sanguinius said:


> The manager of the store in Canterbury has some of the models already. They are sweet.


Can you get some snaps of them for us?


----------



## tu_shan82

Yeah I second the call for photos.


----------



## Baltar

I will try. I may be heading to that store tomorrow.


----------



## trog

In the Australian White dwarf it says there gettiny something called "the avenging Angel of Sanguinor" Any thoughts on what that may Be (for Australian's who want to check see Page 15 of febs WD)


----------



## Wax

Lets not give links to places that otherwise breach GW copyright by giving away their property for free, leaked and potentially untrue codex or not. -darkreever


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Looks very good to me ... I am liking the thoughts of Seth ... I never really looked into the Blood Angels until recently. I like the looks of them. Hell I like them helluva lot more than Nilla marines.:good:


----------



## Crimson Shadow

One thing I hope the new codex touches on, is the actual Chapter layout of the Blood Angels. I know that Ultramarines and other Codex chapters are a 6-2-2 layout. 

I want to know if BA are the same, or given their propensity for Assault Squads if they're more like a 4-4-2 setup. 

Personally, now that I have more than 1 company of space marines, I was assigning my marines to squads based on the 4-4-2 setup.

And for those that don't know, the numbers refer to Tac Squads, Assault Squads, and Devastator squads within the active companies (usually 2-6).


----------



## Baron Spikey

Unless the BA fluff has been retconned (which is possible) then they should remain as 6-2-2, though with the addendum that Tactical Squads can also be equipped with pistol and ccw or similar.


----------



## Lord Reevan

yeah they still hold to the 6-2-2 set up although tac squads can be fielded with jump packs. so tac squads are assault squads if needed


----------



## Crimson Shadow

If a tactical squad is given JP and CCW, in exchange for their bolters, they're an assault squad in my opinion.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Thats why they would have their own codex in my opinion. Because they do not hold ENTIRELY to the codex astartes. They use what they need from it and Macguyver everything else.


----------



## Katie Drake

Talthewicked said:


> Thats why they would have their own codex in my opinion. Because they do not hold ENTIRELY to the codex astartes. They use what they need from it and Macguyver everything else.


They have their own Codex because they diverge pretty significantly from the Codex Astartes - well, at least they do now. In their earlier incarnations the Blood Angels and their Successors were pretty close to being a Codex Chapter with only a couple truly notable divergences. Now they have a bunch of units that other Chapters don't use as well as a ton of new wargear and special rules that sets them well apart from their Codex abiding brethren.


----------



## Lord Reevan

yeah they used to be the usual company set up but changed with the last codex.pdf. they tried to keep them tied to the codex astartes by saying the tac squads use jump packs. now I'm thinking it's gonna be pretty divergent. I likey....


----------



## pathwinder14

*From BOLS:*

So the crazed fever pitched rumors are working overtime. The latest Codex: Blood Angels chatter points to the appearance of the *"Storm Harbinger".* This is the reported correct name for the flying transport used by the Sons of Sanguinius. Here's the latest we hear:


*Storm Harbinger*
Skimmer, Fast, Deep Strike, 1 Access point (front)
Front:13 Side:11 Rear:10 BS:4
Tantalus Assault Cannon System (R:18" S:6 AP:4 Heavy:8, Rending, Pinning, Linked )
*Transport Capacity:*
16 models (Terminators/Jump pack troops/Servitors count double)
_OR_
5 bikes (attack bikes count double)
_OR_
1 dreadnought
*Weapon Options:*
Linked-flamer, linked-melta, linked-plasma, 1-2 hunter killers

*Jump Pack Insertion:* Jump Infantry may assault the turn they disembark, even if the vehicle deepstruck.​This is said to be a transport upgrade for many units.Costing is said to be on par with a IG Colossus.


----------



## Jezlad

Having glanced through the leaked codex (GW need to sort their staff vetting out) I can quite honestly say they look shit. Nothnig grabbed me anyway.


----------



## Katie Drake

Yeah, the Storm Harbinger actually costs _less_ than a Vendetta. :shok:


----------



## Crimson Shadow

Katie Drake said:


> Yeah, the Storm Harbinger actually costs _less_ than a Vendetta. :shok:


I haven't seen anything giving a Pts cost for it yet. Care to share your secret?


----------



## smfanboy

lol you must be kidding right anyway are there already some new pics would be nice if someone pm it to me


----------



## pathwinder14

Jezlad said:


> Having glanced through the leaked codex (GW need to sort their staff vetting out) I can quite honestly say they look shit. Nothnig grabbed me anyway.


Look shit? is that good or bad? Can you PM me some pics?


----------



## Stephen_Newman

He can't since it would be probably illegal to be even seeing it in the first place.

I'll see if I can find any information I can from my store (I am quite chummy with the staff)

They love me recently for getting a forge world dreadnought


----------



## Katie Drake

Crimson Shadow said:


> I haven't seen anything giving a Pts cost for it yet. Care to share your secret?


No can do. Buuut I can give you hints so you can get a ballpark idea.

Nobody post the total or I'll make you eat your own ass.

The cost of the Storm Harbinger is the same as an Imperial Guard Valkyrie, plus a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant's plasma pistol, minus the cost of a flamer for an Imperial Guardsman, plus the cost of artificer armor for a Space Marine Captain plus the cost of extra armor in Codex: Witch Hunters, minus the cost of a meltagun for a Grey Hunter. You're pretty close with that total number. 

Ha! Take that GW lawyers!

EDIT: I just realized that I was under the impression that the Vendetta was 150 points. So the Harbinger is slightly more.


----------



## Underground Heretic

Here's the real question:

Katie, as an experienced Flesh Tearers player, do you think the rule set you have seen will make the Blood Angels legion a competetive army again or will Seth simply hold the Ard Boyz trophy atop a pile of fresh skulls?

I've never beaten the Blood Angels, but will they be more or less powerful and balanced as an army? Will they require intense thought and planning or will they be a better version of berzerkers that run across the field by themselves?


----------



## Katie Drake

Underground Heretic said:


> Here's the real question:
> 
> Katie, as an experienced Flesh Tearers player, do you think the rule set you have seen will make the Blood Angels legion a competetive army again or will Seth simply hold the Ard Boyz trophy atop a pile of fresh skulls?
> 
> I've never beaten the Blood Angels, but will they be more or less powerful and balanced as an army? Will they require intense thought and planning or will they be a better version of berzerkers that run across the field by themselves?


The Blood Angels are already a competitive army. Take a look at Jawaballs' blog if you don't believe me. He always places well with his Blood Angels.

That being said, I'm confident that the Blood Angels will start to place even better once their new Codex becomes tournament legal. I don't think that the Blood Angels are ever going to be as rock hard as the Space Wolves are - the Wolves have Troops that are just too economical to compete with. I'd give it say... six months after the Codex becomes legal at tournaments before it starts to place well. People need time to break any Codex after all.


----------



## Lord Reevan

I have absolutely no problem dealing with new wolves with both the BA codex and the marine codex, using assault armies, shooty armies, any marine army really. but they're not the most experienced player. I still think from the sound of things BA will give those uber units a run for their money.... hopefully anyway hehehe


----------



## H0RRIDF0RM

Katie Drake said:


> The Blood Angels are already a competitive army. Take a look at Jawaballs' blog if you don't believe me. He always places well with his Blood Angels.
> 
> That being said, I'm confident that the Blood Angels will start to place even better once their new Codex becomes tournament legal. I don't think that the Blood Angels are ever going to be as rock hard as the Space Wolves are - the Wolves have Troops that are just too economical to compete with. I'd give it say... six months after the Codex becomes legal at tournaments before it starts to place well. People need time to break any Codex after all.


The Blood Angels look pretty disgusting to me Katie I think they're alot better then Space Wolves.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Just the simple fact that they can take assault marines as troop choices is enough for me ... I love those close combat bastards.


----------



## timsmith

I don't think the blood angel dex is over powered at all. It does have draw backs and can screw you as katie found out but it does have a few nice tricks. Grey hunters are still more efficient and hard as nails. BA assault squads are almost on par with them but only on the charge and then GH get counter charge. 

Can't decide wether I like the new DC. Are they worth their points? Guess we will find out. Any 1 else had some games with the new dex yet?


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord

Troop assault marines with furious charge. That's just nasty.


----------



## Winterous

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> Troop assault marines with furious charge. That's just nasty.


With Furious Charge SOMETIMES.
If you roll over a 7 on your Red Thirst test (or was it equal to or over?), you have it, that's less that 50% of the time (over 50% if it was equal or over).


----------



## timsmith

I believe its 7+ but will double check later. There not awsom but they are good. I'm liking the idea of a charge out of the drop ship. Should be pretty nice. Guess that's why locator beacons cost the earth(or should I say terra)


----------



## OIIIIIIO

timsmith said:


> I don't think the blood angel dex is over powered at all. It does have draw backs and can screw you as katie found out but it does have a few nice tricks. Grey hunters are still more efficient and hard as nails. BA assault squads are almost on par with them but only on the charge and then GH get counter charge.


True, for when you charge though your In. gets popped up to 5 making the SW player remove models first ... huge IMO.


----------



## Winterous

True, for when you charge though your In. gets popped up to 5 making the SW player remove models first ... huge IMO.[/QUOTE]

Ooh yeah, because he's getting 3 attacks back per model, that's not good.


----------



## Katie Drake

timsmith said:


> Can't decide wether I like the new DC. Are they worth their points? Guess we will find out. Any 1 else had some games with the new dex yet?


I have. I have a couple threads going in the army list section, the first of which details a game I played using the new rules.


----------



## BloodANgels89

I will be playing my first game tomorrow.

The book is no where near over-powered...just a good book.

I will personally be testing mephiston tomorrow with terminators (quickening field makes the unit move as cavalry.......with terminators!!!)

Harbingers are extremely good (av 13 front with a good transport capacity, can flat out for a cover save, and 8 TLAC shots that pin)

Yes, grey hunters are still ten times better, but I would truly fear the CC that some of the BA units bring to the table. Again, cavalry terminators. Or dante with a good HG in a DS'ing harbinger. Also can't put grey hunters and BA tacticals in a vacuum either.


----------



## Sanguinary Dan

Another important new option is VAS as Troops when you bring Dante. Combined with the Chapter Banner and a SHP you got 10 guys with WS5, S5, I5 and 5 attacks on the charge. Any of whom may have a power weapon or fist. And should the SHP carry the Red Grail (If he does he can't get a Jump Pack. Hey! You try not spilling a a big cup while bouncing on a demented trampoline.  ) and be within 12" you'll reroll any misses.


----------



## darkreever

Sanguinary Dan said:


> Another important new option is VAS as Troops when you bring Dante. Combined with the Chapter Banner and a SHP you got 10 guys with WS5, S5, I5 and 5 attacks on the charge. Any of whom may have a power weapon or fist. And should the SHP carry the Red Grail (If he does he can't get a Jump Pack. Hey! You try not spilling a a big cup while bouncing on a demented trampoline.  ) and be within 12" you'll reroll any misses.


Which is all great, if the squad didn't cost as much as a land raider before any upgrades beyond being ten strong, priest + banner + powerfist/weapon will easily put you in the four hundred point range for one squad. Its like vanguard that are scoring and in the end about as effective give the number of points you have to spend and how much doing so can detract from the rest of your force.


----------



## Aramoro

Even though it's pricey I'm liking the Dante + VAS as Honour Guard in a Storm Harbinger with power weapons and a couple of fists. Just always always bring it down on a Locator Beacon, you do not want to mishap that unit. By my reckoning that come in at 680 points. But that buys you a unit that can Assualt out of Deep Strike with 20 S4 Power Weapon attacks, 6 Power Fist Attacks on top of Dante's. So it's a very expensive but amusing glass hammer. 

Aramoro


----------



## tu_shan82

Aramoro said:


> Even though it's pricey I'm liking the Dante + VAS as Honour Guard in a Storm Harbinger with power weapons and a couple of fists. Just always always bring it down on a Locator Beacon, you do not want to mishap that unit. By my reckoning that come in at 680 points. But that buys you a unit that can Assualt out of Deep Strike with 20 S4 Power Weapon attacks, 6 Power Fist Attacks on top of Dante's. So it's a very expensive but amusing glass hammer.
> 
> Aramoro


I could be mistaken, but I don't think VAS have the option of taking a Storm Harbinger.


----------



## Baltar

tu_shan82 said:


> I could be mistaken, but I don't think VAS have the option of taking a Storm Harbinger.


Reading the supposedly leaked codex, they can.


----------



## Underground Heretic

If what I'm reading is correct, the VAS should be able to take a Harbinger with twin-linked meltagun for the same price as a bare bones railhead. Scary stuff for the greater good.


----------



## tu_shan82

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Reading the supposedly leaked codex, they can.


Just went and double checked, it seems VAS can take the Storm Harbinger as a dedicated transport, my bad.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Heres my question though ... will it deep strike like the drop pod where it will just move a little to be OK or will it mishap and kill everything on-board? Storm Harbinger that is.


----------



## darkreever

If I remember right, it doesn't have the inertial guidance rule that drop pods do, and thats what keeps them safe when coming in. So without that, yeah looks like they are still subject to mishaps and whatnot.


----------



## Katie Drake

darkreever said:


> If I remember right, it doesn't have the inertial guidance rule that drop pods do, and thats what keeps them safe when coming in. So without that, yeah looks like they are still subject to mishaps and whatnot.


This is correct. This means that it's probably safer in the long run to just deploy the vehicle normally, have it move 12" then disembark and assault (jump infantry only). Since the model will in all likelihood be using the same base as the Imperial Guard Valkyrie it'll be extremely difficult to find a safe place to _Deep Strike_ that's close enough to assault the enemy afterward. A mishap would be disastrous since you'd lose both the Harbinger _and_ the passengers!


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Yeah ... thats my thoughts exactly. Assaulting out of it like a LR that is cheaper is good for me. Looking forward to seeing this thing.


----------



## MaidenManiac

Winterous said:


> With Furious Charge SOMETIMES.
> If you roll over a 7 on your Red Thirst test (or was it equal to or over?), you have it, that's less that 50% of the time (over 50% if it was equal or over).


Its 7 or more.

If Ive red right then there is one item that lets you roll 3d6 for the Red Thirst test and use the 2 you like the most, which more or less all units can have for a meagre sum of a standard Melta Gun. This means its actually 174/216 (81% chance) to have Furious Charge as long as the wearer of the mandatory item is alive...

Them BA will be scary as hell in assaults, nothing short of it. Expect hysterical 1nt3rw3bz whining 1 week after release


----------



## Col. Schafer

So, have stores goten their copies already or has everyone goten the "leeked" copy but me?


----------



## Baron Spikey

Well there was a leaked copy linked in this thread which a lot of people looked through, it's been taken down for it's obvious breach of copyright though- tough luck matey.


----------



## Col. Schafer

-_-

Initiative roll: 1


----------



## Winterous

MaidenManiac said:


> Its 7 or more.
> 
> If Ive red right then there is one item that lets you roll 3d6 for the Red Thirst test and use the 2 you like the most, which more or less all units can have for a meagre sum of a standard Melta Gun. This means its actually 174/216 (81% chance) to have Furious Charge as long as the wearer of the mandatory item is alive...
> 
> Them BA will be scary as hell in assaults, nothing short of it. Expect hysterical 1nt3rw3bz whining I-FUCKING-MMEDIATELY after release


Nice maths there, but I fixed your post.



Col. Schafer said:


> -_-
> 
> Initiative roll: 1


+rep for lulz.


----------



## WannabeKurt

Col., may this lonely trooper suggest you exercise your google-fu? 

(PleasedontbanmepleasedontbanmePLEASE!)


----------



## ChaosSpaceMarineGuy

I have heard that Blood Angels are getting a flying machine to zip around their assault marines in.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

ChaosSpaceMarineGuy said:


> I have heard that Blood Angels are getting a flying machine to zip around their assault marines in.


Not true at all ... :mrgreen:
Storm Harbinger on order @ FLGS


----------



## ChaosSpaceMarineGuy

@Talthewicked:

that is the item i speak of good sir.  lol. from what i have read, it is going to be quite useful but a bit of cheeze.


----------



## Crimson Shadow

Okay, after re-reading the internet codex (that of course I am now obliged to disavow.  ) I have a few questions/concerns about the BA codex.

1) Where are the combat shields? I didn't see a single entry that could take them.
2) Laurel of Thorns seems like a must take. So all the squads just got a little more expensive.
3) VAS=10 flamers? Really? I mean that makes sense for IG command squads, but why give the BA that option?
4) 16 person DC (including Aspirant) that's just nasty.
5) In larger games, I can see people starting to include 5 man squads of Devies and VAS, just so they can buff the DC.
6) I'm intrigued by the prospect of the Astartes Grenade launcher in a squad aside from Scout Bikers. I originally bought some Scout Bikers before BA could use them, because I liked the prospect of grenade flinging Deep Strike Beacons.
7) After reading the BAAL Predator entry, I now understand the need for a new kit.
8) Anyone know if they're going to do a Reclusiam Aspirant model, or if they simply want us to use a Chaplain?

Anyone with a better copy I am interested in your thoughts.


----------



## smfanboy

Asking for copyrighted material is against forum rules.


----------



## darkreever

Crimson Shadow said:


> 4) 16 person DC (including Aspirant) that's just nasty.


Yes but keep in mind how expensive such a squad is, all said and done, in order to have the squad at that size your spending no less than 770 points before upgrades of any kind. (Thats 370 for the sixteen man squad itself, and the minimum points spent on bare squads required to get it that strong and give the squad access to certain options like jump packs and powerfists/weapons. For me, such a unit would require me to spend 1617 points with all upgrades included on all squads; admittedly thats three transports and fifty infantry and enough points for an HQ to be a legal force.)


----------



## Crimson Shadow

darkreever said:


> Yes but keep in mind how expensive such a squad is, all said and done, in order to have the squad at that size your spending no less than 770 points before upgrades of any kind. (Thats 370 for the sixteen man squad itself, and the minimum points spent on bare squads required to get it that strong and give the squad access to certain options like jump packs and powerfists/weapons. For me, such a unit would require me to spend 1617 points with all upgrades included on all squads; admittedly thats three transports and fifty infantry and enough points for an HQ to be a legal force.)


I agree. Entirely too expensive below 2000-2500 pt game, even then awfully risky. But it's nice to have the option.


----------



## Baltar

I really like the new 'dex (if the leaked copy has any resemblance of the final release). It's about time the BA had some more awesome shit. I really like the idea of Sanguinor, and also having some rules for other chapters.


----------



## Crimson Shadow

smfanboy said:


> I also thought that just look on google also am I the only one who noticed there this no victor and unholt character in leaked dex


The gun Unholt is rumored to have is listed in the BA codex as the Artificer Cannon. So maybe the name Victor and Unholt are just fluff for the new unit.


----------



## Talos

Harry said quite early on that victor and unholt where fake and not in the list. They may be in the fluff for the unit.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

about this Living Darkness ... it says that any model that touches the marker is removed from play. If I am reading it correct you could just drop the marker on a unit of guys and they would be gone ... Is that right?


----------



## Katie Drake

Talthewicked said:


> about this Living Darkness ... it says that any model that touches the marker is removed from play. If I am reading it correct you could just drop the marker on a unit of guys and they would be gone ... Is that right?


No. The marker itself is removed, not the model that touches it.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Ahhhh balls .... I get so excited that I skip shit when I am reading it ... I misread what it said.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Yeah it says the marker is removed ... I am just wondering how much of this leaked codex is true and what is exaggerated and or placed in there to throw people off.


----------



## MaidenManiac

Crimson Shadow said:


> 1) Where are the combat shields? I didn't see a single entry that could take them...
> 3) VAS=10 flamers? Really? I mean that makes sense for IG command squads, but why give the BA that option?...
> 7) After reading the BAAL Predator entry, I now understand the need for a new kit...


Honestly, do you mourn the loss of Combat Shields? Id gladly trade Combat Shields for Furious Charge 4 times out of 5:wink:

About the Flamers: I dont see any problem with it at all. In fact its damn sure about time that the Emperors Finest gets real access to the Emperors Finest Equipment. Ive always found it extremely shitty that IG has been allowed sooooo much more special weapons then SM. That simply feels wrong:nono:

I was amazed that ALL preds follow the same rules. This actually makes Predators damn good support units now. Move 6 and shoot 3 Lascannons/TL Assaultcannon + 2 Heavy Bolters aint nothing shabby 




Winterous said:


> Nice maths there, but I fixed your post....


Aye, should have written it like that from the start


----------



## Crimson Shadow

MaidenManiac said:


> Honestly, do you mourn the loss of Combat Shields? Id gladly trade Combat Shields for Furious Charge 4 times out of 5:wink:


I was thinking along the lines of that powerfist sergeant who now runs in furiously and still has to wait to use his big glowing mitten.


----------



## Winterous

MaidenManiac said:


> I was amazed that ALL preds follow the same rules. This actually makes Predators damn good support units now. Move 6 and shoot 3 Lascannons/TL Assaultcannon + 2 Heavy Bolters aint nothing shabby


Gah.
Why is it that core SM are outclassed completely on some of the basic units?
Sure you have to buy a Power Fist in order to have Overcharged Engines, but COME ON!
Why should the Baal Predator get access to a Plasma Cannon, and sponson Multi-Meltas???
Fucking annoying.


----------



## Katie Drake

Winterous said:


> Gah.
> Why is it that core SM are outclassed completely on some of the basic units?
> Sure you have to buy a Power Fist in order to have Overcharged Engines, but COME ON!
> Why should the Baal Predator get access to a Plasma Cannon, and sponson Multi-Meltas???
> Fucking annoying.


'Cause we're better than Codex Marines?

But seriously, GW's just doing it to further distance us from the vanilla Chapters. The more divergent we are, the more Chapter-specific models we need to buy.


----------



## Lord Reevan

Also the extra options kind of shows how well versed in artifice and all that jazz the blood angels are. They have long lives so their techmarines have much longer to research new options for their vehicles. Makes sense. I really like how the new codex is coming along though. 

Hear about that ataroth guy, what's his deal? Is he like the master of all the chapters if they need to fight as a unified force yeah??


----------



## pathwinder14

Winterous said:


> Gah.
> 
> Why is it that core SM are outclassed completely on some of the basic units?
> 
> Sure you have to buy a Power Fist in order to have Overcharged Engines, but COME ON!
> 
> Why should the Baal Predator get access to a Plasma Cannon, and sponson Multi-Meltas???
> 
> Fucking annoying.


There are drawbacks. Red thirst and higher point cost are two I can think of. Some people may like to have their units rage, but raging Dev squads makes them useless? BA predators may outclass C:SM preds, but those upgrades aren't free. Those options cost precious points.


----------



## Winterous

pathwinder14 said:


> There are drawbacks. Red thirst and higher point cost are two I can think of. Some people may like to have their units rage, but raging Dev squads makes them useless? BA predators may outclass C:SM preds, but those upgrades aren't free. Those options cost precious points.


DELICIOUS POINTS! NOM NOM NOM NOM NOMNOMNO M NOM!!

*ahrem*

On an unrelated note, I guess having Sternguard available is a pretty HUGE bonus, aye?
I mean, they're good, it can't be denied.


----------



## smfanboy

am I the only one were the leaked codex is gone on the site were it first was it says: The document 'New Codex: Blood Angels(2010)' has been deleted

edit: there have been more delets better print while you can


----------



## Winterous

smfanboy said:


> am I the only one were the leaked codex is gone on the site were it first was it says: The document 'New Codex: Blood Angels(2010)' has been deleted
> 
> edit: there have been more delets better print while you can


You know a simple way to preserve a web page that you like to protect it from being changed is clicking 'file > save page as'


----------



## Stella Cadente

I think the writers have played soul calibur too much.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

I went there, I saw it, I saved as, and I ran away as fast as I can. ha ha ha:alcoholic:


----------



## Crimson Shadow

Anyone have any guesses to how much the Storm Harbinger will cost?
I'm guessing in the $60-$75 range, given that it's a Space Marine Valkyrie.


----------



## pathwinder14

The page was not that important to save. I saw and read it for info to see what I can keep in my army and what I can expect to change. Since it's not official, the only codex that matters NOW is the WD version. I can easily wait till April to buy the new BA codex. I will not melt.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Crimson Shadow said:


> Anyone have any guesses to how much the Storm Harbinger will cost?
> I'm guessing in the $60-$75 range, given that it's a Space Marine Valkyrie.


That would be a fair assessment. Land Raider is $58 ... better movement, same troop capacity, less armor. $60 would be about right.


----------



## Jisko888

Anyone else get the idea to use the new BA dex as a kind of "Counts as" for playing Black Templar? Lets us play a 5th ed codex but still keeps the general feel of the army, rage filled marines charging across the battlefield. 

Use Gabriel Seth as the sub in for EC for his vow-like effect, and assault squad troops, but do the free jetpack -> Rhino swap. Plus simply don't use librarians or scouts.

Obviously this doesn't work if you're heavy into the neophytes in your crusader squads, but in my case where I have 3 rhino'd crusader squads, it works out nicely.


----------



## MaidenManiac

Jisko888 said:


> Anyone else get the idea to use the new BA dex as a kind of "Counts as" for playing Black Templar...


That might be an idea too. I however imagine the number of CSM Khorne players that will join the Flesh Tearers ranks in April. That would be, uhh, about *ALL* of them:wink:

Dead killy units with Rage and Furious Charge, and even the Dreadnoughts will be useable. Just skip away from the Librarians and this codex screams Khorne a damn lot more then the SW does


----------



## tu_shan82

MaidenManiac said:


> That might be an idea too. I however imagine the number of CSM Khorne players that will join the Flesh Tearers ranks in April. That would be, uhh, about *ALL* of them:wink:
> 
> Dead killy units with Rage and Furious Charge, and even the Dreadnoughts will be useable. Just skip away from the Librarians and this codex screams Khorne a damn lot more then the SW does



Yeah I think this codex would work really well for fielding a World Eaters army, but it's a shame people should have to use a loyalist codex in order to field a fluffy and effective army. It just goes to highlight what an epic failure the CSM codex actually is.


----------



## Bindi Baji

I have a friend who will undoubtedly be considering using flesh tearers rules for her chaos marine army. 

On the brightside it has been admitted that everyone involved realised that in a few ways the CSM codex was a monumental cock up and when they do get around to another CSM codex then there should be significant changes.

That's enough of me going off topic (as usual)


----------



## Col. Schafer

Katie Drake said:


> No. The marker itself is removed, not the model that touches it.


Thank GAWD I was about to come on here and rant about how that power just broke the whole dam game, but that makes it so much less broken... in fact, its not even all that good now that I know that. :/

EDIT: you know what, nevermind I did some more thinking and I think its worth takeing.

EDIT: almost forgot; PSYCHIC deadnaughts! =D I'm _this_ close to become a traitor to my well ingrained Spece Mehreen hate. unish:

I did not just say that. :no:


----------



## Crimson Shadow

Have there been any rumors about them releasing an actual Moriar the Chosen kit? if now, I guess we'll need the venerable dreadnaught + another Closecombat weapon for the right arm, except then the CCW won't match. I guess you need the body off the Venerable, and then the arms off a current furioso to make Moriar.


----------



## Katie Drake

Crimson Shadow said:


> Have there been any rumors about them releasing an actual Moriar the Chosen kit?


Nope, it'd be in the roundup if there were.


----------



## Lord Reevan

Isn't there a furiouso kit on forgeworld that has some ornate pieces that might work? Or am i just being car-azy again


----------



## Katie Drake

Lord Reevan said:


> Isn't there a furiouso kit on forgeworld that has some ornate pieces that might work? Or am i just being car-azy again


As far as I know there's no Furioso kit, but it is possible to buy a (beautiful, might I add) additional close combat arm. It doesn't look the same as the close combat arm that comes in the GW Dreadnought kit, but if people are buying from Forge World they might as well get two arms, no?


----------



## Lord Reevan

true that. In for a penny in for a pound as they say. Also the Etched brass BA symbols would help make any dread characterful enough....


----------



## Stella Cadente

Crimson Shadow said:


> Have there been any rumors about them releasing an actual Moriar the Chosen kit?


in all likelyhood thats something forgeworld would probably do at some point.


----------



## Winterous

Crimson Shadow said:


> Have there been any rumors about them releasing an actual Moriar the Chosen kit? if now, I guess we'll need the venerable dreadnaught + another Closecombat weapon for the right arm, except then the CCW won't match. I guess you need the body off the Venerable, and then the arms off a current furioso to make Moriar.


Um, they're releasing a Venerable Dreadnought kit.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1430059&prodId=prod630020a

Put some Furioso arms on that, and you're got it.


----------



## Katie Drake

Winterous said:


> Um, they're releasing a Venerable Dreadnought kit.
> http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1430059&prodId=prod630020a
> 
> Put some Furioso arms on that, and you're got it.


I dunno if that'd do Moriar justice to be honest, though I doubt Forge World will make a kit. I'd be happy to be wrong, though. I'm just gonna use my Chaplain Dreadnought to represent a Death Company Dread or Moriar should I decide to use 'em.


----------



## Winterous

Katie Drake said:


> I dunno if that'd do Moriar justice to be honest, though I doubt Forge World will make a kit. I'd be happy to be wrong, though. I'm just gonna use my Chaplain Dreadnought to represent a Death Company Dread or Moriar should I decide to use 'em.


Perfect.
The model is amazing, I love it.


----------



## Devinstater

I am just stoked that they might make assault marines worth taking. When I first started at the end of 4th (didn't know 5th was coming) I got a few squads and I was gifted a whack load. I've just always thought they looked like a bunch of fun. If they do make them overcome not being in a Rhino, I may be converting to the Red Threat.


----------



## Arcane

Winterous said:


> Um, they're releasing a Venerable Dreadnought kit.
> http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1430059&prodId=prod630020a
> 
> Put some Furioso arms on that, and you're got it.


Look at the cost vs the actual Forgeworld dread. 

Get a cooler forge world dread model and buy furioso arms. Same cost, cooler model.


----------



## pathwinder14

*From BOLS:*

As we move within about a month from the Blood Angels Release, the first folks claiming to have seen the codex have arrived. Take a look at these and make up your own mind:

via Frgt/10

Just spoke to a staffer who has seen the new book, few interesting things got said:
• the Baal pred can take a flamestorm cannon turret
• the death company is a unique unit, but you can have a 30man squad
• lemartes is a character upgrade for the death company instead of an hq choice
• the lander does not exist, or he completely missed it when looking at the dex. I'm tipping the former


----------



## World Eater XII

flamestorm what? is that gonna be like a 24 inch flamer template thing?


----------



## Baron Spikey

Isn't that what's used by Land Raider Redeemers?


----------



## OIIIIIIO

It is ... S6 AP3 Template ... I am still not convinced that the Harbinger is out entirely though. First it was called the Tantalus lander then storm harbinger ... I am not so sure it is gone ... I think that GW might have said something like " Thou Shalt Not Verify Existence of Harbinger"


----------



## Underground Heretic

I'm indifferent. The Harbinger would give the Blood Angels the ability to assault from deep strike if they land close enough or would be able to extend their charge range, admittedly only by two inches or so.

As a tau player, who still hasn't beaten the BA, I've never seen them need more power when they can spam assault marines with power fists and bring a few meltaguns to deal with armor. I've seen them played both well and poorly by the same player, but they could use the dignity of a bound codex.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Not gonna lie ... I would like to see the Harbinger in. I really cant see myself using more than two of them though, Huge points cost to me anyways. If they are in cool if not OK as well.


----------



## tristanvdputten

30 man Death company is awesome


----------



## Cyklown

See, I'm torn. On the one hand, I'm happy they're supporting a Spayce Manz army that actually needs/deserves the support. On the other hand I'm tempted to start frothing with nerdrage and start screaming things like: _WTF. NO. SERIOUSLY. FUCK YOU ALL. AV 13/12/10 SKIMMERS? THAT YOU CAN ASSAULT OUT OF? SERIOUSLY? THATS THE BEST FUCKING SKIM TRANSPORT ANYONE'S MADE. FIRST THE LANDSPEEDER STORM AND NOW THIS? FUCK YOU, GW. OH, AND LOOK... AN ELITES UNIT WITH ALL-POWERWEAPONS THAT ARE +1S ON A S4 MODEL. FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK"_ or something else along those lines. That would probably be less than productive, however.

I just wish that GW would stop righteously stomping on other army's design space. Spayce Manz are all fine and good, and the Blood Angels are a favorite within that, but every time I read that the comment that "...we have barely scratched the surface of the exciting and origional things we can make for Space Marines armies..." seems more and more like a sick joke with a punch line of "no matter how the quote ends, we'd rather give the exciting toy to the space manz.

Furthermore, it somewhat flies in the face of the BA. I'd like to see more "heroic sacrifice" rules and less "daarrr, cool toys" rules. The Death company seems like it should be a rock-solid lawnmower unit that can be used to tie up the scariest things around. These exalteds... how the HELL do they fit with established rules about power weapon availability (since there was a time when the fact that an army could field a squad's worth of power swords at elites, let alone strength-boosting power weapons was considered a sign of technology above and beyond the imperium's, and I need to stop ranting about unrelated stuff).

So hey, why not have a rule saying that BA can sacrifice their sergeant (or perhaps any model) to give their squad hit and run? Assaulty or shooty, that's a sacrifice and a cool power. The rage rules and all that are cool, and I'm glad I'm in there, and quite frankly I'll damn well wait until the real dex is released to peruse it (I'm perfectly happy to abuse, say, WotC's intelectual property rights, but for some reason I won't do it to GW, even if they do love punching me, as Bits put it, in the crotch), but I'm really hoping that the rules will more focus on the Heroic Sacrifice vs the We Are So Much More than Mere Space Marines mindset of the Faustians. It's the different between, to use a World of Darkness character who cares about humanity versus one who rocks some sort of Path/the general mindset of the Sabbat. There's just so much room to work with that, I'd rather not see them step on design space that would be better explorered by other armies.


----------



## Jezlad

I have it on good authority that this "storm harbinger" thing is a pile of shit. 

I'm inclined to believe the person who told me. We'll just have to wait and see


----------



## Cyklown

That may be, but I'd rather they were cool, y'know? There's a ton of room to be cool and still not step on other army's niche. BA is probably at the top of the "Army I won't play any time soon but which I like the overall idea of better than some armies I'd consider playing" list, and that desire for them to be glorious is strong. A different sort of drop pod would be neat. Just... good lord, not another skimmer transport.

Additionally: I'm well aware of what a rapier was, but even 11th-century florentine type rapiers were not meant for maximum damage, but rather at attempt to sqeeze a bit more reach and speed out of the metal for duels. We're talking about a point in time where the daggers had to become wavy because someone realized they could grab the blade if they were slick enough.


----------



## Winterous

If GW pulled a Deathly Hallows, I'm gonna love them a little.

Just in case you don't understand what I mean.
Preceding the release of the Deathly Hallows, the final Harry Pothead book, there were several fake books released to the public so that no one knew which was the real one, they were all good, and all believable.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Cyklown said:


> See, I'm torn. On the one hand, I'm happy they're supporting a Spayce Manz army that actually needs/deserves the support. On the other hand I'm tempted to start frothing with nerdrage and start screaming things like: _WTF. NO. SERIOUSLY. FUCK YOU ALL. AV 13/12/10 SKIMMERS? THAT YOU CAN ASSAULT OUT OF? SERIOUSLY? THATS THE BEST FUCKING SKIM TRANSPORT ANYONE'S MADE. FIRST THE LANDSPEEDER STORM AND NOW THIS? FUCK YOU, GW. OH, AND LOOK... AN ELITES UNIT WITH ALL-POWERWEAPONS THAT ARE +1S ON A S4 MODEL. FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK"_ or something else along those lines. That would probably be less than productive, however.
> 
> I just wish that GW would stop righteously stomping on other army's design space. Spayce Manz are all fine and good, and the Blood Angels are a favorite within that, but every time I read that the comment that "...we have barely scratched the surface of the exciting and origional things we can make for Space Marines armies..." seems more and more like a sick joke with a punch line of "no matter how the quote ends, we'd rather give the exciting toy to the space manz.
> 
> Furthermore, it somewhat flies in the face of the BA. I'd like to see more "heroic sacrifice" rules and less "daarrr, cool toys" rules. The Death company seems like it should be a rock-solid lawnmower unit that can be used to tie up the scariest things around. These exalteds... how the HELL do they fit with established rules about power weapon availability (since there was a time when the fact that an army could field a squad's worth of power swords at elites, let alone strength-boosting power weapons was considered a sign of technology above and beyond the imperium's, and I need to stop ranting about unrelated stuff).
> 
> So hey, why not have a rule saying that BA can sacrifice their sergeant (or perhaps any model) to give their squad hit and run? Assaulty or shooty, that's a sacrifice and a cool power. The rage rules and all that are cool, and I'm glad I'm in there, and quite frankly I'll damn well wait until the real dex is released to peruse it (I'm perfectly happy to abuse, say, WotC's intelectual property rights, but for some reason I won't do it to GW, even if they do love punching me, as Bits put it, in the crotch), but I'm really hoping that the rules will more focus on the Heroic Sacrifice vs the We Are So Much More than Mere Space Marines mindset of the Faustians. It's the different between, to use a World of Darkness character who cares about humanity versus one who rocks some sort of Path/the general mindset of the Sabbat. There's just so much room to work with that, I'd rather not see them step on design space that would be better explorered by other armies.


Dont forget the +1 Initiative:biggrin:


----------



## Crimson Shadow

I don't know. For the most part I like the layout and feel of the "leaked" codex. And I really hope they bring out the Harbinger, yes a skimmer transport is traditionally the realm of other armies (I'm looking at you Eldar and Tau), but from a technology standpoint is it that far fetched that the Space Marines would have a skimmer transport? I mean the IG has one, surely Mars can convert one for SM use.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

I could not agree more ... SM are supposed to be the equivalent of our special forces. I know that our Navy Seals and Army Rangers and Air Force Para-rescue get all of the latest and greatest toys to play with, the SM armies would get that as well, I would think. Hell, GW is working these boys overtime as it is, if ya want to sell more then they gotta have the shiny stuff.


----------



## Baltar

Talthewicked said:


> I could not agree more ... SM are supposed to be the equivalent of our special forces.


No, they are not. I shall prove this... with this...

Read the first page entitled "Are they too hard?"

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1320038_Using_Space_Marines.pdf



PS: Stormtroopers are supposed to be the equivalent of our SF. SM are far better...


----------



## bitsandkits

The Harbringer skimmer thing makes no retail sense, GW are not going to produce a flyer kit for one chapter alone, Plus do they really need a skimmer ? marines have a vast array of vehicle options already without adding a flying tank option


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Same could have been said about the LR Crusader when it came out ... now everyone can use them. I think that it is a testbed for something new. If it works out well, then they can WD it for Nilla marines and everyone else.


----------



## Baltar

Talthewicked said:


> Same could have been said about the LR Crusader when it came out ... now everyone can use them. I think that it is a testbed for something new. If it works out well, then they can WD it for Nilla marines and everyone else.


No, that logic doesn't apply here.

The crusader is made from parts mostly already existing from the original land raider sprues. All they had to do was add a few extra parts (relatively inexpensive).

Whereas for a whole new model, they have to add an entire range of new plastic moulds (expensive).


----------



## Judas Masias

More Blood Angels news.

Two lists of details today from 2 sources, one on the contents of the black box, the other the contents of the Sanguinary Guard kit. Lets take a look:


As to the Sanguinary Guard, contents are as follows:

5x legs (look like Dante/Tycho)
5x torso fronts (all muscled, no belts)
5x toros backs
5x winged Jump Packs (5 parts each)
5x left arms with wrist mounted Bolters
1x left arm with wrist mounted Plasma Gun
1x left arm with wrist mounted Melta Gun
3x 2-handed swords
2x 2-handed axes (1 double headed)
15x shoulder pads
1x large standard with winged grail icon on top
Multiple heads of different types such as with haloes and laurels
Other small bits like hands for the left arms
via Scarella


1. The leaked .pdf is not the codex 

2. No new figs for Dante, Mephiston, Corbulo, and Tycho... 

3. New Special figs for Astorath, Sanguinior, Seth, Lemartes 

4. Astorath is a crazy fiend if you want your army to go ape and suffer red thirst on a 3+... he looks like a dark evil angel. with long black hair, black wings, red armor like the Dracula guy from the movie... and a large Axe held overhead 2-handed 

5. Sanguinior is a ***pt beast.... WS8 ST5 T4 Atk5 2+save, 3+ invul... 2-handed master crafted power sword of something encarmine, nominate an enemy HQ then you get rerolls with all Sanguinior's Hit and wound rolls towards that guy... he grants powers to one SGT. in the game ie., +1 attack etc., and units within 6' get +1 attack except for him... the BEST NEW MODEL in the range... looks like the living saint on steroids... think Michaelangelo angel with wings out-stretched and soaring to the heavens... and he's held aloft thru parchment... he's got a nice sword in one hand and a grail in the other... he led a 12 man squad to assault a CSM battle barge and fought their way to the bridge and killed the Chaos Lord dude there... was pure nasty... 

6. The codex is written by Matthew Ward, same guy who did the Space Marine Dex... 

7. Stormraven... ok it's got ar 12 12 10, is a skimmer, twin-assault, twin-Hvy bolter, 4 blood strike missiles... Range 72' Str 8, Ap1, forgot if it was blast, probably was... here's the PAIN.... carries 12 marines... Assault Vehicle... and it CAN carry 1 Dreadnought as well... it can deploy models even if it goes flat out however they suffer dangerous terrain stuff... BAD NEWS... there's no pic of it anywhere in the dex... might be a second wave... but hey it CARRIES A DREAD & 12 Marines!!!! how big will this thing be.... 

8. The models are gorgeous... omg they had the Sanguinary Guard, pretty much Angel wings assault marines, but the detail is pure OMFG!!! there's tear-drops under the soles of the feet, think the dude Maximus fought in Gladiator with the metal mask and you're not too far off... just pure awesome!!! it's a huge leap from the marines and more even from the space wolves... BLING BLING!!! Also the Death Company can have super weapons, ie. thunderhammers, power weapons, melta pistols... pure awesome kit... all the red X bands are modeled on the figs... even on the handguards... and the Banner that comes with the sanquinary guard is sooooooooooooooo nice! it's the old pic of Sanguinius holding the grail in one hand and sword in the other but in relief... 

9. For every 5 Deathcompany you can take 1 furious Dread as a TROOP!!! we counted it up so max 11 dreads... 3 elite librarian ones, 3 Hvy support ones, 5 Troop ones so OMFG... you won't have much else... 

10. Hmm, the Baal has the option for a Flamestorm cannon on the turret... ugh... 

~Standard caveats but time is getting very short for this release slot. I would rate the reliable of The Voice considerably higher than Scarella. Count this as more anecdotal evidence in favor of the Blood Angel lander though...


----------



## KingOfCheese

I hope this isnt a repeat of the SW codex.
Why wont this power creep just end!


----------



## OIIIIIIO

The Real Sanguinius said:


> No, that logic doesn't apply here.
> 
> The crusader is made from parts mostly already existing from the original land raider sprues. All they had to do was add a few extra parts (relatively inexpensive).
> 
> Whereas for a whole new model, they have to add an entire range of new plastic moulds (expensive).


Logic in this game does not apply anywhere ... GW is going to do what they want. Parts of this lander could exist already ... take the base of the Valkyrie as the base of the new skimmer ... I am merely saying that it COULD be a test bed. I am not sure if it is and I am not sure if it isn't, it is a theory.


----------



## Chimaera

> 1. The leaked .pdf is not the codex
> 2. No new figs for Dante, Mephiston, Corbulo, and Tycho...


Does that mean the stats that were quoted for Mephiston are incorrect? If not? Surely his cost is not 265pts?

I have to admit I am interested to see what eventually comes out, especially some of the plastic bits.


----------



## Baltar

People are saying that the models look awesome, but there are no pics?

Anyone else thinking it's all a pile of bs?


----------



## Chimaera

> People are saying that the models look awesome, but there are no pics?


It would be great to see some. Hopefully not too much longer.



> Anyone else thinking it's all a pile of bs


Only time will tell.


----------



## Crimson Shadow

You can see some of the pics in the back of March's white dwarf. It's the same pic that Tu_Shan posted, but at least you can see a little of the new details that the BA are supposed to get.


----------



## bitsandkits

Ok so the skimmer now called "Stormraven", hmm thats like a mini "Thunderhawk" so whats next a "Lightdrizzlepenguine"?


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Jealousy ... Duly noted.


----------



## hungryp

Just got some hands-on with a store copy. While I wasn't allowed to hump it (nto even a little  ), I did give it a good glance. I could've spent all day reading it, but i gotta go to work soon.

Some things that stick out:

Sanguinor is in fact a beast
They finally gave Corbulo's chainsword some teeth (bad pun intended), making it S5 Rending.
Baals can scout
Yes, they have a skimmer transport, it's 200 points worth of Heavy Support slot.
Mephiston has no invuln, and Dante has no Eternal Warrior.

edit: and yes, the new models look sweeeeet!


----------



## Baltar

> Mephiston has no invuln, and Dante has no Eternal Warrior.


Then it's quite possibly the shittiest codex in existence.


----------



## Stella Cadente

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Then it's quite possibly the shittiest codex in existence.


uhh....dark angels.

although if true that mephiston and dante don't have those rules, then I'll be laughing happily as there 2 characters I really hate, plus it might mean some BA armies will look different from everyone elses.


----------



## Baltar

Stella Cadente said:


> uhh....dark angels.
> 
> although if true that mephiston and dante don't have those rules, then I'll be laughing happily as there 2 characters I really hate, plus it might mean some BA armies will look different from everyone elses.


You do have a great point. I don't think I would take either of those characters, either.

Not with the sanguinor and astorath being around.


----------



## Stella Cadente

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Not with the sanguinor and astorath being around.


honestly I don't rate either of them that highly, they just seem meh and bland and boring, especially since astorath is just a computer game character stuck in a codex, and the sanquinor just makes me yawn.


----------



## Chimaera

Does anyone know if the black boxes are going in to UK stores tomorrow?


----------



## MaidenManiac

Judas Masias said:


> 7. Stormraven... ok it's got ar 12 12 10, is a skimmer, twin-assault...





bitsandkits said:


> The Harbringer skimmer thing makes no retail sense, GW are not going to produce a flyer kit for one chapter alone, Plus do they really need a skimmer ? marines have a vast array of vehicle options already without adding a flying tank option


What if this is some kind of an upgrade kit to a certain IG Valkyrie kit that already is out there? 
Thats what Id do at least, perhaps as a FW conversion kit though since its rather niched...



Chimaera said:


> Does anyone know if the black boxes are going in to UK stores tomorrow?


They should be there about tomorrow yea, or at least next week. The Black Box tend to arrive 4 weeks before its contents release. Expect the BA rumours to become accurate middle/late next week.


----------



## fett14622

That is a good call MaidenManiac on the upgrade kit to IG Valkyrie kit. I can picture that definitely for a Dread.


----------



## Baltar

Do you all forget that the HH novels very frequently feature a SM lander called a "Stormbird"..........


----------



## Winterous

bitsandkits said:


> Ok so the skimmer now called "Stormraven", hmm thats like a mini "Thunderhawk" so whats next a "Lightdrizzlepenguine"?


:laugh:



The Real Sanguinius said:


> Then it's quite possibly the shittiest codex in existence.


I love your fanboi rage.
It's like "BAAWWWW, Harry and Hermione didn't hook up like in my fanfics T_T"


Ok sweet, so we know that Judas Masias's info is at least largely true.
Awesome, finally a firm foothold!
And oh my god, GW pulled a Deathly Hallows!
OMG *worship the coolness of GW*

..It may have been a test codex though, not a diversion codex.



The Real Sanguinius said:


> Do you all forget that the HH novels very frequently feature a SM lander called a "Stormbird"..........


Well, they decided to change the name a bit, make it sound less odd.


----------



## Katie Drake

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Do you all forget that the HH novels very frequently feature a SM lander called a "Stormbird"..........


The Stormbird is an obsolete design in the 41st Millenium. It was the Thunderhawk's predecessor and was considerably _larger_ than its child design.


----------



## Lord Reevan

I think the no eternal warrior for dante and no inv. save for Mephiston is kinda fitting. they're all about great and heroic sacrifices, so why make their characters impossible to kill? they'll take as many guys with them as possiblebefore dying so therefore accurate to the whole honourable sacrifice dealy.... gonna still enjoy this codex I'd say...


----------



## Chimaera

> They should be there about tomorrow yea, or at least next week. The Black Box tend to arrive 4 weeks before its contents release. Expect the BA rumours to become accurate middle/late next week


Cheers for that. It will be interesting to see the end products. Not my buzz but a good buzz none the less when new product is on the horizon. I only asked as I noticed on another forum that I think a Canadian shop said they would have their black box today. No doubt things will start to firm up rapidly as you suggested. I will admit I am curious how much Mephiston will cost & his officially confirmed stats/abilities.

Guess I will just have to await the rumoured TWC models (hopefully in plastic) to get my fix :biggrin: Hopefully there will also be some other SW goodies down the road.


----------



## Judas Masias

Chimaera said:


> Hopefully there will also be some other SW goodies down the road.


Hopefuly Plastic Thunderwolves and Fenrisian Wolves (crosses Fingers).


----------



## hungryp

Canadian stores do in fact have their black boxes in, and they usually get their stuff on Tuesday.


----------



## Chimaera

> Canadian stores do in fact have their black boxes in, and they usually get their stuff on Tuesday.


I feel pic's coming on rapidly.

And here one is posted by the Dude on Warseer (although may have come from another forum/source) and thought I would share.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/FHSSNIPER/Warhammer%2040k/BASprue.jpg

And quite a detailed summary.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4453239&postcount=1

You may also want to look at pg 36 on this thread if still there (may get removed on that forum).

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1050/275431.page


----------



## Stella Cadente

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Do you all forget that the HH novels very frequently feature a SM lander called a "Stormbird"..........


yeah, and its huge.

and some of the bits on that sprue do admittedly look rather funky, the wings looks meh, but the swords and axes look funky


----------



## Chimaera

Stella Cadente said:


> yeah, and its huge.
> 
> and some of the bits on that sprue do admittedly look rather funky, the wings looks meh, but the swords and axes look funky


The double header looks sweeeet. Now why didn't they put a SW version in the SW TDA pack is beyond me. Surely would have been more appropriate. Wouldn't mind a better shot though to see clearer detail. Can't have everything I guess :biggrin:


----------



## Winterous

Damn, that looks pretty cool.
Stella, you must keep in mind that the wings AREN'T REAL, they probably use a similar technology to those of Swooping Hawks, ie: rows of tiny gravitic plates.
So if they don't look supa reel, there's a reason.


----------



## Sethis

Those Power Axes look fucking awesome. My pre-heresy Emperors Children are definitely having some of that (Phoenix Guard anyone?).


----------



## Chimaera

> Those Power Axes look fucking awesome. My pre-heresy Emperors Children are definitely having some of that (Phoenix Guard anyone?).


Bits stores on standby LOL.

This post may also fuel the rumours that something new is coming for the Grey Knights ummmmmmm although nobody seems to have picked up on it yet? Seems like the BA's will also not have access to Drop Pod's?

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4454000&postcount=134


----------



## Stella Cadente

Winterous said:


> Damn, that looks pretty cool.
> Stella, you must keep in mind that the wings AREN'T REAL, they probably use a similar technology to those of Swooping Hawks, ie: rows of tiny gravitic plates.
> So if they don't look supa reel, there's a reason.


thats why I said nothing about them not looking real, just looking meh in general, definitely something I would not ever use.


----------



## Underground Heretic

Honestly, I think GW's giving some armies the shaft. I mean Banshees can force a unit to take ld test or fight at WS 1, but Death Masks apparently make this happen at -2 to ld. If they want to keep banshees scary when they come out I don't want to know what'll happen.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Soo looking forward to the plastic DC sprue.


----------



## Sethis

Underground Heretic said:


> Honestly, I think GW's giving some armies the shaft. I mean Banshees can force a unit to take ld test or fight at WS 1, but Death Masks apparently make this happen at -2 to ld. If they want to keep banshees scary when they come out I don't want to know what'll happen.


I can see the future...

Exarch Power "War Cry": Enemy fights at WS1 in the first round of combat. 20pts.

Alternatively we could move back to second edition where banshee masks simply meant that the enemy didn't make any attacks at all in the first round of combat. I'd be happy with that! :laugh:

Blood Angels also appear to be "Hey, let's give this army abilites belonging to other armies!" e.g. Skimmer transports, Lance weapons, Banshee shout... and probably more that we haven't seen.


----------



## fett14622

WOW, that sprue look awesome. Can't wait to see more pics of the new stuff.:grin:


----------



## pathwinder14

Sprue: Drool.
Rules: Drool. 
Can't wait.


----------



## subtlejoe

so the salamander army i started is being thrown out the window, Death company for troops and everything else sanguine guard


----------



## OIIIIIIO

My FLGS got the black box ... This was me


----------



## hungryp

Chimaera said:


> Seems like the BA's will also not have access to Drop Pod's?


Yes, they do get pods. All told there was I think six dedicated transports between Rhino and LR variants and pods. And of course the skimmer, but that's a heavy slot.


----------



## Cyklown

So, they made the skimmer bad, but they still made it. That's moronic.

The space marines may get the best gear, but there's very little innovation, even among the likes of the BA, Sallies or Iron Hands.

The fact that BA have units of dudes who can, given the right rolls, hit with s6 i5 power weapon attacks, who have jetpacks that are made via a technology that up until this codex the imperium did not have nearly the mastery needed to develope...

No, really. I'm not even complaining based on a game ballance idea. It just feels like they're missing the theme. This is a chance to go all tragic hero without the huge helping of Emo that is, say, a game of Vampire. Heck, the Faustians have an entirely interesting mindest.

But no... we see a bunch of "hay guyz, this is sooo cooool" stuff that doesn't make a whole lot of sense (rapier-like power weapons that boost strength? wait, what? Boost init, maybe... but strength? It's a style of blade that willingly gives UP damage done). It feels like Games Workshop is giving them a bunch of things that really should be in an entirely different army (both for fluff reasons, to preserve design space and so that they can have things that suck only do so on accident, rather than because they decided that an already loaded down aspect of the FOC is the place to put it) and ignoring the things that should make them great.


----------



## Baltar

I don't know what you're complaining about. Your argument seems to suggest that the imperium isn't any good at making awesome skimmers.

Land speeders are skimmers.

The sprue looks awesome. I like literally every part of it.


----------



## MaidenManiac

Chimaera said:


>


That finally solves my pondering of an Emperors Children Raptor unit:grin:

Bigred on BOLS gives this details. Cred to them and their sources. 



> General info
> 
> Release 8 April 2010
> 
> Written by Matt Ward
> 
> Rules
> 
> Army-wide Special Rules
> Combat Tactics – As per C:SM
> 
> And They Shall Know No Fear – As per C:SM
> 
> Red Thirst - Almost all BA units have it. After deployment roll D6 for each unit with the Red Thirst rule. Any unit that rolls a 1 must exchange Combat Tactics for Furious Charge and Fearless.
> 
> Descent of Angels - Anything with a Pump Pack can re-roll reserve rolls and will only Scatter 1d6 when Deep Striking.
> 
> Weapons & Wargear
> GW have said there will be a range of specialist wargear for the Blood Angels
> 
> Infernus Pistols – 6” Melta pistols
> 
> Hand Flamers - S3 AP6 Template
> 
> Death Mask - Force a Ld check at -2. Fail and fight at WS1.
> 
> Over-charged Engines are gone, replaced with Fast on some vehicles.
> 
> Blood Talons - close combat weapons on the Furioso Dreadnought. A dreadnought CCW with a Stormbolter, likely upgradeable to Meltagun/Heavy Flamer.
> 
> Magna-Grapples - A R12” S8 anti-vehicle harpoon weapon for Dreadnaughts. On a successful Penetrating or Glancing hit, the target vehicle is dragged 2D6" toward the Dreadnought, facing unchanged. Will only pull a vehicle as far as the edge of Terrain or 1" away from (friendly?) models. It has been said it can cause Tank Shock.
> 
> Psychic Powers
> The Sanguine Sword – Gives Librarian S10
> Wings of Sanguinius – As per GW PDF
> Quickening - As per C:SM
> Unleash Rage - Gives unit Preferred Enemy
> Blood Boil – A successful Psychic test causes a wound on an enemy unit, allocated by enemy Player. If the Psychic Test is passed with a result of 5 or less, The Blood Angels player allocates the wound.
> Unnamed - Draw a line of length 4D6” from the Librarian ignoring friendly models. Enemy models take a single S8 AP1 Lance hit.
> Unnamed - Units within 6” get a 5+ cover save
> Unnamed – One enemy squad has to take a Ld test to Move, Run, Shoot or Assault.
> 
> HQ
> Dante, Lord of the Blood Angels – He and his squad don't scatter when Deep Striking. He doesn't have Eternal Warrior.
> Death Mask of Sanguinius – As per regular Death Mask, plus pick a single Independent Character at the start of the game and cause -1 to WS, A, I and Ld.
> Gives his squad Hit & Run
> Allows Sanguinary Guard as Troops
> 
> Gabriel Seth, Chapter Master of the Flesh Tearers – Captain stat line Armed with a very large Chainsword (S8, rending), Bolt Pistol and Iron Halo
> Can forgo his normal attacks and cause one auto-hit on everything in base to base contact with him
> If an enemy rolls 1 to hit him, he hits back with a basic close combat attack.
> Causes all units with Red Thirst to suffer it on a 1-3.
> 
> Mephiston, Lord of Death – WS7 BS5 S6 T6 W5 I7 A~5 Ld10 Sv 2+ Around the cost of a Land Raider
> Armed with Psychic Hood, Plasma Pistol, Force Weapon, Frag & Krak grenades
> May cast 3 psychic powers per turn,
> Transfixing Gaze - Does not require a psychic test. A single Independent Character must take a Ld test with a -4 modifier. If they fail Mephiston may re-roll failed hits and wounds. The enemy may fight back is they survive.
> 
> Tycho, Captain of the 3rd Company – Hits like a Monstrous Creature (at S4) and can re-roll a single To-Wound roll. His Combi-Melta has access to Sternguard special ammo.
> Apparently there are multiple versions such as Death Company in the codex.
> 
> Reclusiarch Chaplain – Death Company get to re-roll to-wound and to-hits on the charge with the Liturgies of Hate
> 
> Librarian – No news yet
> 
> Company Captain – No news yet
> 
> Honour Guard – No news yet
> 
> Astorath the Grim – Armed with Power Axe, pistol and Jump Pack
> Described as an Uber Chaplain. Apparently, if he is with the Death Company, they can re-roll Hits and Wounds.
> 
> Sanguinor, Exemplar of the Host – A “mysterious avenging angel” armed with 2-handed master crafted Power Sword (possibly S6), Bolt Pistol, and Jump Pack. WS8 ST5 T4 A5 Sv2+ 3++
> Forces successful invulnerable saves in close combat to be re-rolled
> Can nominate an enemy HQ and get re-rolls to all To-Hit and Wound rolls on that model
> All friendly units within 6” get +1 attack
> Blessing of Sanguinor - One sergeant in your army has +1 to WS, S, W, I, A and Ld
> 
> Elites
> Chaplain – Death Company get to re-roll to-wound and to-hits on the charge with the Liturgies of Hate
> 
> Terminator Squad – No news yet
> 
> Terminator Assault Squad – No news yet
> 
> Dreadnaught – Can upgrade to Venerable, Furioso, and Furioso Librarian
> Furioso Librarian have a single Blood Talon and Force Weapon, they have to choose which to use in close combat, but they DO get the +1 attack for having multiple CCWs. They can take 2 Blood Angel psychic powers (including Wings of Sanguinius) and has a Psychic Hood.
> 
> Techmarine – No access to the Thunderfire Cannon
> 
> Vanguard Veterans – A bit cheaper than C:SM. No Relic Blades, but access to the Glaive Encarmine (master crafted Power Weapons). Able to take Hand Flamers. Can supposedly take an Exsanguinator
> 
> Sternguard Veterans – As per C:SM
> 
> Sanguinary Guard – Armed with wrist-mounted Angelus Boltguns (12" S4 AP4 Assault 2), Glaives Encarmine (master crafted Power Weapons) Jump Packs and Artificer Armour. May take Death Masks. Max squad size of 5.
> 
> Sanguinary Priests – Unit of 1-3.
> 
> Brother Corbulo – Upgrade to Sanguinary Priests. Same profile. Armed with a S5 rending Chainsword. Red grail gives Feel No Pain and Furious Charge within 6”. Supposedly only gets FNP himself on a 2+
> 
> Troops
> Assault Squad – As per C:SM but have Red Thirst
> 
> Tactical Squad – As per C:SM but have Red Thirst
> 
> Death Company – Furious charge, fearless, relentless, FNP, 3-30 models, 0-1 choice. Armed with Bolter, Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon. Can take Power Weapons and Power Fists. Can take Jump Packs.
> Cost with Jump Packs is the same as it is in the GW PDF.
> Not a Scoring Unit
> 
> Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost – Upgrade character for Death Company. Armed with Crozius, Bolt Pistol and Jump Pack. Gets stronger if he loses one of his two wounds.
> 
> Death Company Dreadnaught - May take one for every 5 Death Company in the army. Several different weapon options including Magna-Grapple, Blood Talons (some form of Melta weapon), etc.
> 
> Scout Squad – Standard Scouts. No “Mad Max” style ones
> 
> Fast Attack
> Baal Predator – Pretty much the same, but is Fast, has the Scout USR, and the option for a turret-mounted Flamestorm Cannon.
> 
> Bike Squadron – No news yet
> 
> Attack Bike Squadron – No news yet
> 
> Land Speeder – No news yet
> 
> Land Speeder Storm – Likely Added
> 
> Heavy Support
> Devastator Squad – No news yet
> 
> Whirlwind – As per C:SM
> 
> Predator – No news yet
> 
> Vindicator – As per C:SM but are Fast
> 
> Stormraven Gunship – Armour 12 all around, Skimmer, Fast, Assault Vehicle, Deep Strike.
> Armed with twin-linked Assault Cannons, twin-linked Heavy Bolters and 4 Bloodstrike Missiles.
> Ceremite Plating make is immune to Melta weapons' extra penetration due to being able to withstand atmospheric re-entry temperatures
> Bloodstrike Missiles Range 72” S8 AP1 Heavy 1, One-shot
> Transports up to 12 Marines (Jump Troops take up 2 slots) and up to 1 Dreadnought at the same time.
> Transported Dreads take a single S4 hit on rear armour if the Stormraven explodes
> Models can be deployed at any point of the move, even if it goes flat out but they must take a Dangerous Terrain test (Jump Pack Troops have a better chance of passing). Models deployed in this way cannot assault.
> No fire points
> 4 access points (front, sides and top (?))
> May replace Heavy Bolters with either twin-linked Multi-Melta or twin-linked Typhoon Launchers. May also take Hurricane Bolter sponsons.
> 
> Dedicated Transports
> Rhino – 50 pts. As per C:SM but are Fast
> 
> Razorback – No news yet
> 
> Drop Pod – No news yet
> 
> Land Raider – Standard, Crusader and Redeemer. Only available as Dedicated Transports. Can supposedly Deep Strike somehow.


Someone headstarted and spoiled my "rumours starting next week guessing" :laugh:


----------



## Stella Cadente

judging by those descriptions I can assume then that sprue is for those Sanguinary Guard things


----------



## Baltar

I hope that I am not the only person that has noticed that there is not one single "wrist mounted" weapon on that sprue.

Therefore, I'm calling bs on the rumours.


----------



## Stella Cadente

The Real Sanguinius said:


> I hope that I am not the only person that has noticed that there is not one single "wrist mounted" weapon on that sprue.
> 
> Therefore, I'm calling bs on the rumours.


because of 1 tiny thing?

maybe they just changed the design but it was just never picked up, rumors always come before models, so someone might of heard wrist mounted but the design was changed.

afterall there definitely some form of boltgun carbine, too long to be a pistol, too short to be a boltgun, the only thing I doubt is the AP4, but considering GW's increased power creep I still won't be suprised.

plus wrist mounting is for grey knights, thats there domain and only they should keep it, its the only thing they get to have a little smile about, poor silver armoured weak idiots.


----------



## MaidenManiac

That Baal Preds are Fast(OCE speaking) is nothing new, but that they ended up in the FA section is a big difference. Combine that with Scout and there should be a hot FA option to say the least. 

However Fast Vindicators has to be the biggest :shok: of em all. That gives them usefulness on a whole new level. Travelling 12 whilst shooting really cuts down the danger of CC a whole lot


----------



## Baltar

Stella Cadente said:


> because of 1 tiny thing?
> 
> maybe they just changed the design but it was just never picked up, rumors always come before models, so someone might of heard wrist mounted but the design was changed.
> 
> afterall there definitely some form of boltgun carbine, too long to be a pistol, too short to be a boltgun, the only thing I doubt is the AP4, but considering GW's increased power creep I still won't be suprised.
> 
> plus wrist mounting is for grey knights, thats there domain and only they should keep it, its the only thing they get to have a little smile about, poor silver armoured weak idiots.


It's my mistake.

The boltguns are actually wrist mounted. If you look closely, they are just off-set a little.

It makes perfect sense.

The gun is offset from the hand, so that they can hold a two-handed CC weapon, and the gun can still protrude forwards to fire at the enemy.


----------



## Judas Masias

Here is some more info guys.

Its been a VERY long and dirty ramp up to the Blood Angel release window, but at long last, multiple eye-witness accounts of black box copies of the physical codex are with us. Its time to put aside all the last month of craziness and see what the Blood Angels are REALLY bringing to the tabletop:


General info

Release 8 April 2010

Written by Matt Ward

Rules

Army-wide Special Rules
Combat Tactics – As per C:SM

And They Shall Know No Fear – As per C:SM

Red Thirst - Almost all BA units have it. After deployment roll D6 for each unit with the Red Thirst rule. Any unit that rolls a 1 must exchange Combat Tactics for Furious Charge and Fearless.

Descent of Angels - Anything with a Pump Pack can re-roll reserve rolls and will only Scatter 1d6 when Deep Striking. 

Weapons & Wargear
GW have said there will be a range of specialist wargear for the Blood Angels

Infernus Pistols – 6” Melta pistols

Hand Flamers - S3 AP6 Template

Death Mask - Force a Ld check at -2. Fail and fight at WS1.

Over-charged Engines are gone, replaced with Fast on some vehicles.

Blood Talons - close combat weapons on the Furioso Dreadnought. A dreadnought CCW with a Stormbolter, likely upgradeable to Meltagun/Heavy Flamer.

Magna-Grapples - A R12” S8 anti-vehicle harpoon weapon for Dreadnaughts. On a successful Penetrating or Glancing hit, the target vehicle is dragged 2D6" toward the Dreadnought, facing unchanged. Will only pull a vehicle as far as the edge of Terrain or 1" away from (friendly?) models. It has been said it can cause Tank Shock.

Psychic Powers
The Sanguine Sword – Gives Librarian S10
Wings of Sanguinius – As per GW PDF
Quickening - As per C:SM
Unleash Rage - Gives unit Preferred Enemy 
Blood Boil – A successful Psychic test causes a wound on an enemy unit, allocated by enemy Player. If the Psychic Test is passed with a result of 5 or less, The Blood Angels player allocates the wound.
Unnamed - Draw a line of length 4D6” from the Librarian ignoring friendly models. Enemy models take a single S8 AP1 Lance hit.
Unnamed - Units within 6” get a 5+ cover save
Unnamed – One enemy squad has to take a Ld test to Move, Run, Shoot or Assault.

HQ
Dante, Lord of the Blood Angels – He and his squad don't scatter when Deep Striking. He doesn't have Eternal Warrior.
Death Mask of Sanguinius – As per regular Death Mask, plus pick a single Independent Character at the start of the game and cause -1 to WS, A, I and Ld.
Gives his squad Hit & Run
Allows Sanguinary Guard as Troops

Gabriel Seth, Chapter Master of the Flesh Tearers – Captain stat line Armed with a very large Chainsword (S8, rending), Bolt Pistol and Iron Halo
Can forgo his normal attacks and cause one auto-hit on everything in base to base contact with him
If an enemy rolls 1 to hit him, he hits back with a basic close combat attack.
Causes all units with Red Thirst to suffer it on a 1-3.

Mephiston, Lord of Death – WS7 BS5 S6 T6 W5 I7 A~5 Ld10 Sv 2+ Around the cost of a Land Raider
Armed with Psychic Hood, Plasma Pistol, Force Weapon, Frag & Krak grenades
May cast 3 psychic powers per turn, 
Transfixing Gaze - Does not require a psychic test. A single Independent Character must take a Ld test with a -4 modifier. If they fail Mephiston may re-roll failed hits and wounds. The enemy may fight back is they survive.

Tycho, Captain of the 3rd Company – Hits like a Monstrous Creature (at S4) and can re-roll a single To-Wound roll. His Combi-Melta has access to Sternguard special ammo.
Apparently there are multiple versions such as Death Company in the codex.

Reclusiarch Chaplain – Death Company get to re-roll to-wound and to-hits on the charge with the Liturgies of Hate

Librarian – No news yet

Company Captain – No news yet

Honour Guard – No news yet

Astorath the Grim – Armed with Power Axe, pistol and Jump Pack
Described as an Uber Chaplain. Apparently, if he is with the Death Company, they can re-roll Hits and Wounds.

Sanguinor, Exemplar of the Host – A “mysterious avenging angel” armed with 2-handed master crafted Power Sword (possibly S6), Bolt Pistol, and Jump Pack. WS8 ST5 T4 A5 Sv2+ 3++
Forces successful invulnerable saves in close combat to be re-rolled
Can nominate an enemy HQ and get re-rolls to all To-Hit and Wound rolls on that model
All friendly units within 6” get +1 attack
Blessing of Sanguinor - One sergeant in your army has +1 to WS, S, W, I, A and Ld

Elites
Chaplain – Death Company get to re-roll to-wound and to-hits on the charge with the Liturgies of Hate

Terminator Squad – No news yet

Terminator Assault Squad – No news yet

Dreadnaught – Can upgrade to Venerable, Furioso, and Furioso Librarian 
Furioso Librarian have a single Blood Talon and Force Weapon, they have to choose which to use in close combat, but they DO get the +1 attack for having multiple CCWs. They can take 2 Blood Angel psychic powers (including Wings of Sanguinius) and has a Psychic Hood.

Techmarine – No access to the Thunderfire Cannon

Vanguard Veterans – A bit cheaper than C:SM. No Relic Blades, but access to the Glaive Encarmine (master crafted Power Weapons). Able to take Hand Flamers. Can supposedly take an Exsanguinator

Sternguard Veterans – As per C:SM

Sanguinary Guard – Armed with wrist-mounted Angelus Boltguns (12" S4 AP4 Assault 2), Glaives Encarmine (master crafted Power Weapons) Jump Packs and Artificer Armour. May take Death Masks. Max squad size of 5.

Sanguinary Priests – Unit of 1-3.

Brother Corbulo – Upgrade to Sanguinary Priests. Same profile. Armed with a S5 rending Chainsword. Red grail gives Feel No Pain and Furious Charge within 6”. Supposedly only gets FNP himself on a 2+

Troops
Assault Squad – As per C:SM but have Red Thirst

Tactical Squad – As per C:SM but have Red Thirst

Death Company – Furious charge, fearless, relentless, FNP, 3-30 models, 0-1 choice. Armed with Bolter, Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon. Can take Power Weapons and Power Fists. Can take Jump Packs.
Cost with Jump Packs is the same as it is in the GW PDF.
Not a Scoring Unit

Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost – Upgrade character for Death Company. Armed with Crozius, Bolt Pistol and Jump Pack. Gets stronger if he loses one of his two wounds.

Death Company Dreadnaught - May take one for every 5 Death Company in the army. Several different weapon options including Magna-Grapple, Blood Talons (some form of Melta weapon), etc.

Scout Squad – Standard Scouts. No “Mad Max” style ones

Fast Attack
Baal Predator – Pretty much the same, but is Fast, has the Scout USR, and the option for a turret-mounted Flamestorm Cannon.

Bike Squadron – No news yet

Attack Bike Squadron – No news yet

Land Speeder – No news yet

Land Speeder Storm – Likely Added

Heavy Support
Devastator Squad – No news yet

Whirlwind – As per C:SM

Predator – No news yet

Vindicator – As per C:SM but are Fast

Stormraven Gunship – Armour 12 all around, Skimmer, Fast, Assault Vehicle, Deep Strike. 
Armed with twin-linked Assault Cannons, twin-linked Heavy Bolters and 4 Bloodstrike Missiles.
Ceremite Plating make is immune to Melta weapons' extra penetration due to being able to withstand atmospheric re-entry temperatures
Bloodstrike Missiles Range 72” S8 AP1 Heavy 1, One-shot 
Transports up to 12 Marines (Jump Troops take up 2 slots) and up to 1 Dreadnought at the same time.
Transported Dreads take a single S4 hit on rear armour if the Stormraven explodes
Models can be deployed at any point of the move, even if it goes flat out but they must take a Dangerous Terrain test (Jump Pack Troops have a better chance of passing). Models deployed in this way cannot assault.
No fire points
4 access points (front, sides and top (?))
May replace Heavy Bolters with either twin-linked Multi-Melta or twin-linked Typhoon Launchers. May also take Hurricane Bolter sponsons.

Dedicated Transports
Rhino – 50 pts. As per C:SM but are Fast

Razorback – No news yet

Drop Pod – No news yet

Land Raider – Standard, Crusader and Redeemer. Only available as Dedicated Transports. Can supposedly Deep Strike somehow.


----------



## Cyklown

Oh, ffs.

So, now everyone and their uncle gets better lances than the DE and Eldar, av 12 all around skimmers belong to humans but noone else... and they're assault vehicles, and melta weapons, which are the best way to deal with any real vehicles aren't usefull against them. Additionally, Blood Angels are now better at being jetpack deepstrikers than anyone else, 2+ jump troops with strictly better shuriken cat's and power weapons are be thrown about, the red thirst is no longer a disadvantage and they basically have strictly better version of everyone else's wargear/powers?

*eyeroll*
Well, we certainly hope it's being overstated. Getting strictly better versions of things that everyone else gets, except in cases where they're better at things that other people purportedly specialize in is stupid.


edit: I mean heck, there's every chance that they'll overcost half of it until it's unusable. Then it's ruining design space without even helping anyone out.


----------



## Winterous

Stella Cadente said:


> afterall there definitely some form of boltgun carbine, too long to be a pistol, too short to be a boltgun, the only thing I doubt is the AP4, but considering GW's increased power creep I still won't be suprised.


Nicely spotted.
It appears to be, as you said, a bigger pistol, but too small to be a Storm Bolter.
Perhaps a 2-shot Bolt pistol?
Or perhaps just a Bolter that they can fire as though stationary (and charge after using), or something like that.

*edit*
Ok, so, it's a 2-shot pistol with ap4, I like it.

I also see a Plasma pistol and an Inferno pistol 



The Real Sanguinius said:


> The boltguns are actually wrist mounted. If you look closely, they are just off-set a little.
> 
> It makes perfect sense.
> 
> The gun is offset from the hand, so that they can hold a two-handed CC weapon, and the gun can still protrude forwards to fire at the enemy.


They do appear to be that, if you look at the arms, there's no hand, and the arm is too short by a bit.
So yes, they do have wrist-mounted weapons, just not Storm Bolters.


*edit*
Read the thing, spoke too soon apparently :S



Cyklown said:


> Oh, ffs.
> 
> So, now everyone and their uncle gets better lances than the DE and Eldar, av 12 all around skimmers belong to humans but noone else... and they're assault vehicles, and melta weapons, which are the best way to deal with any real vehicles aren't usefull against them. Additionally, Blood Angels are now better at being jetpack deepstrikers than anyone else, 2+ jump troops with strictly better shuriken cat's and power weapons are be thrown about, the red thirst is no longer a disadvantage and they basically have strictly better version of everyone else's wargear/powers?
> 
> *eyeroll*
> Well, we certainly hope it's being overstated. Getting strictly better versions of things that everyone else gets, except in cases where they're better at things that other people purportedly specialize in is stupid.


They don't get BETTER lance weapons, Nids only have an 18" range one which yes, is more powerful, but it's also a Psychic power, AND has short range.
This one isn't -better-, it's a Psychic power, and has random (and shorter) range.
You need to keep in mind how FUCKING DIFFICULT it is to get a Psychic power off these days, what with Rune Priests, Shadow in the Warp, and the old classic, Runes of Warding.

I imagine a few of those things will be more expensive than their counterparts, but wouldn't be surprised if they aren't (SW get generally better troops for cheaper, so do Chaos, it happens, they have disadvantages too).

Frankly, the thing I'm liking most about that list is the Magna-Grapple, that sounds AWESOME!


----------



## Warlock in Training

I laugh at these suppose "this is what I heard" on these sites. SWs and Nids had all these BS romuors on rules and playstyles and only 3/4 turn out so. I say wait till you see the dex to see what kind of Power Creep BS rules are made. Im looking foward to the futur fight over the next Doom of Malanti, or Deff Rolla, or FC/CA. Every Dex now and days has some half ass rules and Im sure BAs will be no exception. I think the Skimmer (if true) really sucks though. All the other SMs get the shaft in Transports now. WTF...


----------



## Winterous

Warlock in Training said:


> I laugh at these suppose "this is what I heard" on these sites. SWs and Nids had all these BS romuors on rules and playstyles and only 3/4 turn out so. I say wait till you see the dex to see what kind of Power Creep BS rules are made. Im looking foward to the futur fight over the next Doom of Malanti, or Deff Rolla, or FC/CA. Every Dex now and days has some half ass rules and Im sure BAs will be no exception. I think the Skimmer (if true) really sucks though. All the other SMs get the shaft in Transports now. WTF...


It's not a bad transport at all, you can move it 24", disembark, AND THEN ASSAULT.
Sure you'll take a few casualties, but you can reach anything on the board basically.


----------



## Baltar

My current concern is still the lack of any new Dante model.

If the sprue that has been shown is supposed to be for the sanguine guard, and they AREN'T his honour guard, then it means that he and his honour guard look shittier and less ornate than some random elite choice (stupid idiots at GW not thinking that through).

If they ARE his honour guard, then his honour guard are all going to look about 1000 times cooler than Dante himself. Yet again, pure stupidity.


----------



## Winterous

The Real Sanguinius said:


> My current concern is still the lack of any new Dante model.
> 
> If the sprue that has been shown is supposed to be for the sanguine guard, and they AREN'T his honour guard, then it means that he and his honour guard look shittier and less ornate than some random elite choice (stupid idiots at GW not thinking that through).
> 
> If they ARE his honour guard, then his honour guard are all going to look about 1000 times cooler than Dante himself. Yet again, pure stupidity.


They'll probably give him a new model in the second wave, it's not as though he is lacking representation at the moment, it's not urgent.


----------



## Baltar

"2nd wave"

Is that the same as when the orks finally had a release of Flash Gits, more than 2 years after the release of their codex......?


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Winterous said:


> It's not a bad transport at all, you can move it 24", disembark, AND THEN ASSAULT.
> Sure you'll take a few casualties, but you can reach anything on the board basically.


Bad thing is it cost a little more than Shrike does for a SM army. I am interested to actually get more than a glimpse of the Codex.


----------



## Winterous

The Real Sanguinius said:


> "2nd wave"
> 
> Is that the same as when the orks finally had a release of Flash Gits, more than 2 years after the release of their codex......?


Orks are all about conversion, if you can't make your OWN Flash Gits, then GTFO, that one model is just a show model (hence it being web-only).

Anyway, these are SPEHZ MAREENS!, their second wave will actually come in a timely fashion, they're the money cows.
Also, you know, Blood Angels are one of the most hardcore and interesting armies to a newcomer, bloodthirsty yet pious? Fuck yes.


----------



## Galahad

The whole BA special character line needs an overhaul looks wise (except mephy, he's badass)

Seriously, we have ruby nipples on gold muscle-moulded breastplates...we have the disco chaplain, and we have shitty legacy characters with ridiculously bad weapon/wargear combos.

Start afresh, I say

Also, who the fuck plays Flash Gits?
They held those minis back for your own protection. Anyone silly enough to waste points on overpriced nobz that give up something they're great at (assault) to add a little to something they suck at (shooting), and unskilled enough not to have a go at just making them himself, obviously needed a couple of years to grow into their new shoes and learn to play the game before being given the opportunity to waste money and points like that.

Holding back flash gits was a rare public service on GW's part.
If their sense of charity holds out it should be 2015 before we see a new Tycho model.


----------



## Sethis

"Ceremite Plating make is immune to Melta weapons' extra penetration due to being able to withstand atmospheric re-entry temperatures"

I rarely actually facepalm due to something I read, with no-one else in the room.

This is an exception.

Count the number of fucking vehicles in 40k that can withstand atmospheric entry?? Starting with, ooh, I don't know, DROP PODS???? What about IG flyers? What about Eldar flyers? What about ANY flyers??

I want to find whoever came up with that idea and kick him in the nuts.

Never mind that it's about as scientifically sound as "Hey this ant works just fine in sunlight, he must therefore be perfectly fine when I shine this magnifying glass on him".

Idiots.


----------



## Baltar

Any way anyone labels it, the current character models look shit, and they should bring out new ones.

Simply because the new models will make the character models look poor in comparison.

I mean... really... who wants their honour guard looking loads better than the dude that they are actually guarding?

It's retarded.


----------



## Baltar

Sethis said:


> "Ceremite Plating make is immune to Melta weapons' extra penetration due to being able to withstand atmospheric re-entry temperatures"
> 
> I rarely actually facepalm due to something I read, with no-one else in the room.
> 
> This is an exception.
> 
> Count the number of fucking vehicles in 40k that can withstand atmospheric entry?? Starting with, ooh, I don't know, DROP PODS???? What about IG flyers? What about Eldar flyers? What about ANY flyers??
> 
> I want to find whoever came up with that idea and kick him in the nuts.
> 
> Never mind that it's about as scientifically sound as "Hey this ant works just fine in sunlight, he must therefore be perfectly fine when I shine this magnifying glass on him".
> 
> Idiots.


Argument holds little logic RE drop pods.

They drop out of the sky, and suffer a large temperature, yes.

The lander may be powered towards the ground, and suffer a much larger temperature on re-entry. Its entry angle may also be far more shallow (it isn't dropping like a stone - it's flying), and will also suffer a further increase in temperature, compared to a drop pod.

There are many reasons.

It isn't THAT wild.


----------



## Sethis

I thought non-aerodynamic objects dropping at a near-90 degree angle suffer more friction than an aerodynamic object on a glide plane of approach?

And regarding the comment about everyone getting better lances than the ones that Eldar get (you know, the only race who was supposed to have them) is because the new ones are all AP1 for some reason. Roll on the new codex when I can have twin linked AP1 lances on all my Grav tanks, thanks.


----------



## Winterous

Sethis said:


> "Ceremite Plating make is immune to Melta weapons' extra penetration due to being able to withstand atmospheric re-entry temperatures"
> 
> I rarely actually facepalm due to something I read, with no-one else in the room.
> 
> This is an exception.
> 
> Count the number of fucking vehicles in 40k that can withstand atmospheric entry?? Starting with, ooh, I don't know, DROP PODS???? What about IG flyers? What about Eldar flyers? What about ANY flyers??
> 
> I want to find whoever came up with that idea and kick him in the nuts.
> 
> Never mind that it's about as scientifically sound as "Hey this ant works just fine in sunlight, he must therefore be perfectly fine when I shine this magnifying glass on him".
> 
> Idiots.


First of all, Drop Pods OPEN THE FUCK UP after landing, so that point is completely moot.

Eldar flyers are probably aerodynamic enough to tolerate the atmospheric entry/exit temperatures.

What other flyers are there that actually enter/exit the atmosphere?
Thunderhawks, who benefit from the same rule, Eldar things, aaanndd....
Nothing else?


----------



## Baltar

A drop pod is very aerodynamic. As is an aircraft. It would only be lacking that quality if it were an irregular shape, and was travelling in an irregular manner. Aerodynamic simply means that the air flow over the object is consistent (it doesn't fluctuate or vary much in terms of how the streams of air particles flow across the surface of the object). It doesn't tell us anything about the efficiency of how the object travels through the air. Aerodynamics relates to "streamlining".

The drop pod has a large, flat bottom. meaning that the base would be subjected to the heat at it falls. It's a large area, and the friction would be spread across it.

However, if we take something like a space shuttle, then the leading edge of the craft is actually the nose - which by comparison is a "tip". The fiction would heat it up more quickly, as it is a smaller area. This is also related to how much air can be "trapped". You cannot "trap" a pocket of air against a "point" or "tip" of a falling spacecraft - so every particle collides directly with it (creating heat). However, if you take a large, flat base, like on a drop pod, as it falls it will create a pocket of air, trapped beneath it. This is essentially a shockwave, like a wake travelling ahead of a boat in the ocean. This would also be an aid in preventing the base from being heated to the same levels as a craft.

Also, the angle of approach is more concerned with the attitude of the craft, rather than its direction of travel. IE: You would get a different reaction if the craft was flying straight towards the ground, but its nose was pointing to the horizon - compared to the same direction of travel, but with the nose pointing at the ground.

The base of the drop pod points at the ground. The nose of the lander would not.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

and the drop pod may have the same stuff on the bottom of it ... it is just a game ...of little toy soldiers that we all pay too damn much for. For all of that matter why are there even Eldar, we don't know of any that exist for real. Or Nids, or Tau ... I do have some Orks that live about 15 minutes away from me though, always patchin shit together.


----------



## Galahad

Remember that eldar have access to both force fields and much more advanced antigravity tech than humans do. The eldar skimmers probably just float gently down into the lower atmosphere unitl they reach the battlefield and kick on the engines.

And I'm more than willing to extend melta resistance to all hits stemming from the underside of a drop pod since that's where all of the heat resistant surfaces would end up once it touches down.


----------



## Winterous

The Real Sanguinius said:


> A drop pod is very aerodynamic. As is an aircraft. It would only be lacking that quality if it were an irregular shape, and was travelling in an irregular manner. Aerodynamic simply means that the air flow over the object is consistent (it doesn't fluctuate or vary much in terms of how the streams of air particles flow across the surface of the object). It doesn't tell us anything about the efficiency of how the object travels through the air. Aerodynamics relates to "streamlining".
> 
> The drop pod has a large, flat bottom. meaning that the base would be subjected to the heat at it falls. It's a large area, and the friction would be spread across it.
> 
> However, if we take something like a space shuttle, then the leading edge of the craft is actually the nose - which by comparison is a "tip". The fiction would heat it up more quickly, as it is a smaller area. This is also related to how much air can be "trapped". You cannot "trap" a pocket of air against a "point" or "tip" of a falling spacecraft - so every particle collides directly with it (creating heat). However, if you take a large, flat base, like on a drop pod, as it falls it will create a pocket of air, trapped beneath it. This is essentially a shockwave, like a wake travelling ahead of a boat in the ocean. This would also be an aid in preventing the base from being heated to the same levels as a craft.
> 
> Also, the angle of approach is more concerned with the attitude of the craft, rather than its direction of travel. IE: You would get a different reaction if the craft was flying straight towards the ground, but its nose was pointing to the horizon - compared to the same direction of travel, but with the nose pointing at the ground.
> 
> The base of the drop pod points at the ground. The nose of the lander would not.


Great, your point is?
Eldar craft might have a special material which makes the air just bounce off it, largely eliminating entry temperatures.
And even if a Drop Pod is completely covered in this ceramite plating or whatever, IT OPENS UP, exposing the delicate inner electronics and framework.


----------



## Baltar

Winterous said:


> Great, your point is?
> Eldar craft might have a special material which makes the air just bounce off it, largely eliminating entry temperatures.
> And even if a Drop Pod is completely covered in this ceramite plating or whatever, IT OPENS UP, exposing the delicate inner electronics and framework.


My point is that it isn't so unreasonable for the new lander to negate the extra penetration from melta weapons, based on its method of atmospheric entry, as someone suggested that it was.


----------



## Winterous

The Real Sanguinius said:


> My point is that it isn't so unreasonable for the new lander to negate the extra penetration from melta weapons, based on its method of atmospheric entry, as someone suggested that it was.


Oh, I thought you were going the other way >_>


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Me too ... I really thought you were bitchin about the fact that it DID have melta resistance.


----------



## Galahad

I love seeing people agree so violently


----------



## Baltar

Nah, I was making the case that it's most likely that a lander would get hotter than something design to just drop straight down (like a pod).

Hence why it would have the rule.


----------



## Winterous

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Nah, I was making the case that it's most likely that a lander would get hotter than something design to just drop straight down (like a pod).
> 
> Hence why it would have the rule.


That is an interesting point though.
I figured that a Pod would get HOTTER because of that pocket at the bottom, but it's actually the opposite.
The shape of the bottom would reduce the terminal velocity, meaning it would get less hot just as is, but also because of the shape, not much air is winding around the pod, most is just getting pushed out of the way.

Also @Galahad, for some reason that made me want to say "Your kung-fu is too strong!"


----------



## Galahad

Not to mention that the pod would be breaking with that big thruster cluster, slowing its descent (though, granted, bathing it in hot rocket exhaust...something it would naturally be designed to withstand)

I'm sure the bottom is very heat resistant, but it;s not a part that ever gets shot at in the game.


----------



## Winterous

Galahad said:


> Not to mention that the pod would be breaking with that big thruster cluster, slowing its descent (though, granted, bathing it in hot rocket exhaust...something it would naturally be designed to withstand)
> 
> I'm sure the bottom is very heat resistant, but it;s not a part that ever gets shot at in the game.


Actually, I think the thrusters only start going (except the directional correction ones) when it's approaching the ground, to make sure it, you know, doesn't go THROUGH the ground and kill everyone inside.

That's irrelevant though >_>


So yes, if you were shooting at a Pod from underneath, it would ignore Melta 
And possibly if you were shooting the outside.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

I liken the air bubble under the drop pod to something I saw those Tards from Mythbusters do, they proved that you can actually do a Bruce lee move and stick you hand in molten metal. I think that it had t be like 800 degrees but, if you dip you hand in water then fast like Bruce Lee you can dip it in molten metal and the water flash boils creating an atmosphere around your hand and you wont even get a blister ... gotta love those tards.


----------



## Winterous

Talthewicked said:


> I liken the air bubble under the drop pod to something I saw those Tards from Mythbusters do, they proved that you can actually do a Bruce lee move and stick you hand in molten metal. I think that it had t be like 800 degrees but, if you dip you hand in water then fast like Bruce Lee you can dip it in molten metal and the water flash boils creating an atmosphere around your hand and you wont even get a blister ... gotta love those tards.


Um, HOW did they test this?

Anyway, a much easier way to do that would be to tie a rubber gloves full of water on your hand


----------



## Arcane

Anyhow, a drop pod would not completely be covered with ceramic heatshields since it doesn't need them on the sides. If it were so easy, every vehicle in 40 would just have Melta heat shields, Mirrored laser shields and those top secret armor plates tanks have now adays that explode RPGs before hitting the surface (bye bye bolters). 




Winterous said:


> Anyway, a much easier way to do that would be to tie a rubber gloves full of water on your hand


Of course, I carry around rubber gloves and a turkey baster filled with water all the time. 

Or you know, you could just dip your hand in a bucket/faucet/sink and then quick like reach into the fire/oven/flames and do what you gotta do.


----------



## Winterous

Arcane said:


> Anyhow, a drop pod would not completely be covered with ceramic heatshields since it doesn't need them on the sides. If it were so easy, every vehicle in 40 would just have Melta heat shields, Mirrored laser shields and those top secret armor plates tanks have now adays that explode RPGs before hitting the surface (bye bye bolters).


That's called reactive defense I think, it's a concept that's been around for a long time (there was stuff like that in Mechwarrior IV, and surely the ones before that).
Basically yeah, a small projectile tracking AA turret, or energy weapon, or even just a flak discharge to shoot it down.



Arcane said:


> Of course, I carry around rubber gloves and a turkey baster filled with water all the time.
> 
> Or you know, you could just dip your hand in a bucket/faucet/sink and then quick like reach into the fire/oven/flames and do what you gotta do.


Yeah, because we're definitely talking about sticking your hand in moulten metal safely in terms of practicality, and not sheer possibility.


----------



## Arcane

Hey, all I am saying is that for instance if a gas valve is open and is shooting out flames and I can't escape unless I turn it off, dunking my hand in a bucket of water, grabbing the valve and closing it seems a lot more likely than putting on my rubber glove, carefully filling it with water, tying it off, then grabbing the valve.


----------



## Winterous

Arcane said:


> Hey, all I am saying is that for instance if a gas valve is open and is shooting out flames and I can't escape unless I turn it off, dunking my hand in a bucket of water, grabbing the valve and closing it seems a lot more likely than putting on my rubber glove, carefully filling it with water, tying it off, then grabbing the valve.


I wasn't saying it was practical, just it would be more effective 
Er, probably.


----------



## Sethis

Well I never claim to know very much about Physics (B at GCSE level and never looked back) so it's entirely probable that you are correct.

However it is still retarded.


----------



## Winterous

Sethis said:


> However it is still retarded.


What is still retarded?

Internet censorship?
The holocaust?
Your mother?
Damnit man, speak!


----------



## MyI)arkness

lol guise i dont think air resistance is anywhere Near the heat of melta...


----------



## Winterous

MyI)arkness said:


> lol guise i dont think air resistance is anywhere Near the heat of melta...


Tell that to the Space Marines flying through a dense atmosphere with high gravity and antimatter thrusters pushing them towards the ground, or whatever they use.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Those Tards from mythbusters tested it with hot dogs first ... molten steel at lower temps it fried the hot dogs. The one that weres the beret was looking very concerned. I say BA drop pods shod get it too ... FTW.


----------



## Winterous

Talthewicked said:


> They tested it with hot dogs first ... at lower temps it fried the hot dogs. The one that weres the beret was looking very concerned. I say BA drop pods shod get it too ... FTW.


That made absolutely no sense, but it involved hot dogs, so I concur.


----------



## The_Lone_Wolf

THere was a pic of them at the back of the current white dwarf .Your lookin at the ones at the back, i fink theyre the new ones


----------



## DestroyerHive

Seriously? Out of all the armies who need new codices, they make *another* Space Marine codex!?


----------



## smfanboy

Winterous said:


> That made absolutely no sense, but it involved hot dogs, so I concur.


I still dont get how we got from blood angel minis to hotdogs but anyway did you noticed how easily you can make with sagnuior gaurd kit a spec character count ass tycho here is come (just need to get rid of those niples on the minis)


----------



## CallumM27

DestroyerHive said:


> Seriously? Out of all the armies who need new codices, they make *another* Space Marine codex!?


Seriously? *Another* depressing git complaining, just get over it and be happy GW are one codex closer to doing something other than marines. 

I'm loving the look of the new plastics and Astroth the Grim (sp?) sounds like a great model and HQ chose. I for one think the humble librarian will make a come back with a great new chose of powers and the option to take librarian dreads :shok:


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Because Hot dogs and Blood Angels go together like grapejuice and fermunda cheese.:biggrin: I think they are probably going to do DE or Eldar next then another SM codex either BT, DA, or revamp grey knights. SM make mucho grande moneys for GW.


----------



## Baltar

The next army is going to be inquisition. It's already been confirmed.


----------



## Underground Heretic

Could you provide a link or evidence of this confirmation? I know the Stormraven mentions that it has been in use for the GK for a while, but all I've heard is Inquisitorial speculation and a very strong vibe for DE being announced at GD UK in October, released in December.


----------



## Baltar

They have removed the codex, and if you email GW asking why you cannot buy the codex anymore, they will tell you, flat out, that they don't want anyone to buy an old codex that they are about to replace.

Someone already made a thread about it on here, somewhere.


----------



## hungryp

DestroyerHive said:


> Seriously? Out of all the armies who need new codices, they make *another* Space Marine codex!?


Yeah, that's the way it usually goes: Marine codex, not Marine codex, Marine codex, not Marine codex.

And as for the whole water protecting you from fire, it's easiest to see it in action with a really hot skillet and a drop of water. Kind of hot and it'll evaporate, _really_ hot and it'll just dance around on an invisible layer of steam. It's also how those supposed miraculous fire-walkers don't have bloody stumps where their feet should be.


----------



## Winterous

hungryp said:


> Yeah, that's the way it usually goes: Marine codex, not Marine codex, Marine codex, not Marine codex.
> 
> And as for the whole water protecting you from fire, it's easiest to see it in action with a really hot skillet and a drop of water. Kind of hot and it'll evaporate, _really_ hot and it'll just dance around on an invisible layer of steam. It's also how those supposed miraculous fire-walkers don't have bloody stumps where their feet should be.


I think in 5th ed it went:
SM
IG
Nids
SW
BA
Then supposedly Inquisition

So, SM, not SM, not SM, SM, SM, not SM.
Not quite the pattern you mentioned 

And by fire-walkers do you mean coal walkers?
That's just a biology thing, but you might mean something else.


----------



## oblivion8

actually Im pretty sure it went

SM
IG
SW
Nids
BA

so actually it pretty much is SM, not SM.... ect...
so chances are after BA will be dark eldar (or something) then maybe templars or whatnot (thats just my guess though...)


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Yup, Space Wolves came before Nids


----------



## Winterous

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Yup, Space Wolves came before Nids


>_>
<_<
>_>
*runs*


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Cya! :bye:


----------



## MaidenManiac

Winterous said:


> It's not a bad transport at all, you can move it 24", disembark, AND THEN ASSAULT.
> Sure you'll take a few casualties, but you can reach anything on the board basically.





> Stormraven Gunship
> Models can be deployed at any point of the move, even if it goes flat out but they must take a Dangerous Terrain test (Jump Pack Troops have a better chance of passing). Models deployed in this way cannot assault.


It really helps to read things first Wintrous instead of pure trolling :rtfm:


----------



## oblivion8

lol, no worries XD


----------



## Galahad

So based on that pattern what would come after inquisition?

Black Templars 
Dark Eldar
?????? Marines (new DA maybe?)
Tau?

Chaos, Eldar and Orks all got recent, proto-5th codices so if they see an update this edition at all it'd be after everyone else.


----------



## Winterous

MaidenManiac said:


> It really helps to read things first Wintrous instead of pure trolling :rtfm:


Um, whoops.
But how was I trolling?
I was just emphasising the (false) awesomeness of the Stormraven.
My point still stands though, it isn't bad.



Galahad said:


> Black Templars
> Dark Eldar
> ?????? Marines (new DA maybe?)
> Profit!


I fixed your cliché for you.


----------



## Baltar

They have removed the dante and mephiston models from sale (the entire BA range, in fact).

Indicative of a re-release, or a new release...


----------



## CallumM27

The Real Sanguinius said:


> They have removed the dante and mephiston models from sale (the entire BA range, in fact).
> 
> Indicative of a re-release, or a new release...


Its now all in a seperate section at the top of the list instead of grouping use under space marines. Everythings there including the sanginary priest model, the only thing removed that doesn't already have a replacement is the old honour guard kit but I guess the sanginary guard fill that slot now.


----------



## Baltar

I'll tell you what is REALLY pissing me off.

The fact that BA can take vanguard vets, but cant take a relic blade. The box set comes with a sergeant that has a relic blade only. So you HAVE to buy the BA sergeant if you want to take vanguard vets, and GW want £10 for ONE sereant model that isnt all that brilliant.

It's a dirty fucking money spinner.


----------



## EmbraCraig

The Real Sanguinius said:


> The fact that BA can take vanguard vets, but cant take a relic blade. The box set comes with a sergeant that has a relic blade only. So you HAVE to buy the BA sergeant if you want to take vanguard vets, and GW want £10 for ONE sereant model that isnt all that brilliant


Call it a power sword and stick a pistol holster on him if he doesn't already have one?


----------



## deathwatch27

Im going to use him as is anyway coz he could simply be holding a really big power sword that he took from an enemys body


----------



## Galahad

...I never buy metal minis if I can avoid it. I just don;t see the point when I;ve got all this lovely plastic and a nice sharp knife

Just make your sarge out of plastic. Looks like those new BA kits will have tons of swank-encrusted armor bits, plenty to spare for a sarge


----------



## Crimson Shadow

the pre-order page is up, if you haven't read it in the other posts yet.


----------



## Lord Reevan

I count most two handed weapons like that as power fists so I'd just do that anyway.... that sprue looks great lots of fiddly little details to add to an entire army which is good. wouldn't mind seeing more sprues.... kind of disappointed about the mad max scouts though.... I would've liked them....


----------



## Stella Cadente

The Real Sanguinius said:


> The box set comes with a sergeant that has a relic blade only.


looks like a bog standard sword being held in 2 hands to me


----------



## Baltar

It's a relic blade.

A relic blade is a power sword held in two hands that gains +1 strength, but you don't gain +1 attack for having a bolt pistol too, because it's held in two hands.


----------



## Winterous

The Real Sanguinius said:


> I'll tell you what is REALLY pissing me off.
> 
> The fact that BA can take vanguard vets, but cant take a relic blade. The box set comes with a sergeant that has a relic blade only. So you HAVE to buy the BA sergeant if you want to take vanguard vets, and GW want £10 for ONE sereant model that isnt all that brilliant.
> 
> It's a dirty fucking money spinner.





The Real Sanguinius said:


> It's a relic blade.
> 
> A relic blade is a power sword held in two hands that gains +1 strength, but you don't gain +1 attack for having a bolt pistol too, because it's held in two hands.


I think the fact that I _would never have guessed that sword was a Relic Blade_ completely nullifies your point.
It's a sword.
A Relic Blade is, to me, a Claymore, or a gigantic Glaive or Scythe or something.
Certainly not a slightly larger sword.


----------



## oblivion8

doesnt relic blade make you S6? not S5?


----------



## Winterous

oblivion8 said:


> doesnt relic blade make you S6? not S5?


Yes it does, but it's not important.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

The Real Sanguinius said:


> It's a relic blade.
> 
> A relic blade is a power sword held in two hands that gains +1 strength, but you don't gain +1 attack for having a bolt pistol too, because it's held in two hands.


Holding it in two hands is part of the fluff though, you can take a relic blade and a storm sheild in SM codex ...


----------



## Winterous

Talthewicked said:


> Holding it in two hands is part of the fluff though, you can take a relic blade and a storm sheild in SM codex ...


Exactly, I can hold a Power Sword in two hands (probably not even that!), but it doesn't make it a Relic Blade.


----------



## Galahad

Who gives a shit if it could be a relic blade or not? First off, as wint said, it doesn't scream "Not a normal power sword' and even if it did, you have nippers, right?
Cut off the blade and crossguard then stick on the shaft of a power axe. Two minutes with basic hobby tools and no skill and the 'problem' is fixed.

It looks like a power sword to me either way. Seriously, the plastic company champion sword has a much longer hilt and blade, to my eye at least. Hell, if it's true that BA don't have access to relic blades, then the problem is self correcting.

"Say, is that a relic blade?"
"No, BA can't have relic blades so it's completely impossible for that to be anything but a power sword."
"Oh, ok. Silly me for asking."

Seriously, why is that even an issue? It's a piece of wargear that you cannot possibly have, but bears an incredibly strong resemblance to a common piece of wargear you can have. If anyone even thinks twice about it a half second;s explanation renders it moot.

Besides, why aren't you leading with a powerfist?


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Galahad said:


> Who gives a shit if it could be a relic blade or not? First off, as wint said, it doesn't scream "Not a normal power sword' and even if it did, you have nippers, right?
> Cut off the blade and crossguard then stick on the shaft of a power axe. Two minutes with basic hobby tools and no skill and the 'problem' is fixed.
> 
> It looks like a power sword to me either way. Seriously, the plastic company champion sword has a much longer hilt and blade, to my eye at least. Hell, if it's true that BA don't have access to relic blades, then the problem is self correcting.
> 
> "Say, is that a relic blade?"
> "No, BA can't have relic blades so it's completely impossible for that to be anything but a power sword."
> "Oh, ok. Silly me for asking."
> 
> Seriously, why is that even an issue? It's a piece of wargear that you cannot possibly have, but bears an incredibly strong resemblance to a common piece of wargear you can have. If anyone even thinks twice about it a half second;s explanation renders it moot.
> 
> Besides, why aren't you leading with a powerfist?


yeah .... what he said, but more of it.:ireful2:


----------



## Winterous

Quickly Everyone, Suffocate Sanguinius With Logic!


----------



## Baltar

Talthewicked said:


> Holding it in two hands is part of the fluff though, you can take a relic blade and a storm sheild in SM codex ...


That's because a storm shield doesn't have to be held in a hand.


----------



## Baltar

Galahad said:


> Who gives a shit if it could be a relic blade or not? First off, as wint said, it doesn't scream "Not a normal power sword' and even if it did, you have nippers, right?
> Cut off the blade and crossguard then stick on the shaft of a power axe. Two minutes with basic hobby tools and no skill and the 'problem' is fixed.
> 
> It looks like a power sword to me either way. Seriously, the plastic company champion sword has a much longer hilt and blade, to my eye at least. Hell, if it's true that BA don't have access to relic blades, then the problem is self correcting.
> 
> "Say, is that a relic blade?"
> "No, BA can't have relic blades so it's completely impossible for that to be anything but a power sword."
> "Oh, ok. Silly me for asking."




Your 'eye' is wrong.

The blade of the sword carried in that guys hand is as long as the Emperors Champion sword. It's frickin' huge.

As for calling it a power fist - that would be utterly retarded in some cases. People rave over the PF, but at the end of the day, in some cases, going last is the worst of all options.

The vanguard vets can assault out of deep strike. Why slow them down by lumbering someone with a PF, unless you're specifically going for a vehicle? And if you were, why the hell are you deep striking vanguard vets with a mind to take out a vehicle? You could DS ten of the mothers right into that juicy squad of 30 boys, assault with furious charge, all go first because you weren't stupid enough to take power fists, and absolutely ruin the crap out of them...

Relic blade with furious charge = S7
Power fist with furious charge = S9

Both wounding on 2+ in most cases. Who gives a crap. I'd much rather go first.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

The Real Sanguinius said:


> That's because a storm shield doesn't have to be held in a hand.


Very well then explain this ... a SM Captain can take as wargear one relic blade and one thunderhammer ... at the same time. The relic blade is a one handed weapon that you can use two hands on it if you want your character to.


----------



## Baltar

Talthewicked said:


> Very well then explain this ... a SM Captain can take as wargear one relic blade and one thunderhammer ... at the same time. The relic blade is a one handed weapon that you can use two hands on it if you want your character to.


No, he can not.

He may choose EITHER.

Rofl.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

The Real Sanguinius said:


> No, he can not.
> 
> He may choose EITHER.
> 
> Rofl.


you laugh at yourself ... read the codex pg 132 he may replace his bolt pistol and/or chainsword with the following wargear ... etc.
ROFL pointing at youk:


----------



## elkhantar

Cool down, everyone; the game dropped the one handed/two handed weapon thing ages ago. Being two handed is not an explanation for anything, neither having two attacks or not having them. 

A power fist is single handed by definition, but you don't benefit of multiple CCW attacks, right? and you may have modelled your miniature with a power polearm, spear or whatever, it doesn't matter how many hands you require to use it, if it's carrying a pistol it gets another attack in cc (And yes, I do have some glaives and spears and halberds in my army).

The rules state pretty clearly what gets or doesn't get an additional attack for two weapons in CC. A relic blade doesn't (for balance reasons, like a power fist or thunder hammer) and a power weapon does. Nothing in the rules section says that one shall be larger than the other or heavier or two or three handed. One is a relic blade and the other is not, and that's it. 

For starters, the hobby does encourage conversions and modelling (GW sells greenstuff and hobby tools), so I can hack the blade of a power sword of a sergeant and put a buster sword in there. It doesn't matter if it is long, heavy, wide and gigantic in general. If in my list I say it's a power sword, it looks like a sword and it's less than 50% mass of the model, it's clear that is a power weapon (the paintjob usually helps here) and I make my opponent aware of the fact, then it's a power sword, full stop.

And I can (and will) use the model with the big sword in a BA army and say it's a power sword and let it be. If my opponent is so thick-headed to not want to play with me I, for sure, don't want to play with someone as him.

Just out of curiosity... how are frostblades and psychich weapons different from power weapons, then?


----------



## Baltar

Talthewicked said:


> you laugh at yourself ... read the codex pg 132 he may replace his bolt pistol and/or chainsword with the following wargear ... etc.
> ROFL pointing at youk:


It says any of the following....

Meaning ONE CHOICE OF WARGEAR.

No model in 40k can carry a power weapon AND a thunder hammer.

It's not only cheating - it's cheating in a ridiculous manner.


----------



## Baltar

elkhantar said:


> Cool down, everyone; the game dropped the one handed/two handed weapon thing ages ago. Being two handed is not an explanation for anything, neither having two attacks or not having them.
> 
> A power fist is single handed by definition, but you don't benefit of multiple CCW attacks, right? and you may have modelled your miniature with a power polearm, spear or whatever, it doesn't matter how many hands you require to use it, if it's carrying a pistol it gets another attack in cc (And yes, I do have some glaives and spears and halberds in my army).
> 
> The rules state pretty clearly what gets or doesn't get an additional attack for two weapons in CC. A relic blade doesn't (for balance reasons, like a power fist or thunder hammer) and a power weapon does. Nothing in the rules section says that one shall be larger than the other or heavier or two or three handed. One is a relic blade and the other is not, and that's it.
> 
> For starters, the hobby does encourage conversions and modelling (GW sells greenstuff and hobby tools), so I can hack the blade of a power sword of a sergeant and put a buster sword in there. It doesn't matter if it is long, heavy, wide and gigantic in general. If in my list I say it's a power sword, it looks like a sword and it's less than 50% mass of the model, it's clear that is a power weapon (the paintjob usually helps here) and I make my opponent aware of the fact, then it's a power sword, full stop.
> 
> And I can (and will) use the model with the big sword in a BA army and say it's a power sword and let it be. If my opponent is so thick-headed to not want to play with me I, for sure, don't want to play with someone as him.
> 
> Just out of curiosity... how are frostblades and psychich weapons different from power weapons, then?


You are wrong.

The SM codex CLEARLY states:

"Relic blades are two handed swords or axes..."

That's the first sentence of the description of the Relic blade.


----------



## Galahad

I don;t recall ever suggesting that it should be treated as a powerfist. I just said you should have a powerfist instead.

As for how long the sword is, it still makes zero difference. If blood angels cannot have relic blades, then obviously the two-handed power weapon in your sarge's hand is not a relic blade. The only thing it could possibly be is a power weapon.
Considering you'd be paying PW points and using PW stats and the model is depicted holding a large powered blade, it's fair to say you've got a fucking power sword on your hands.

There are numerous depictions of models and characters using a power weapon in two hands without it being treated as a relic blade.
Just because it says that a relic blade is two handed doesn't mean that every twohanded power weapon is a relic blade.

Seriously, you've yet to explain why this is an issue. Is someone really going to throw a fit at the table because they think your model is depicted carrying a weapon it absolutely cannot have, even though you're not treating it as said weapon, and it could just as easily be just a regular PW held in two hands?

That aside, you are very much incorrect regarding the relic blade requiring two hands at all times.
Talth is correct. A SM captain or master can replace either or both of his weapons with those on the list, including relic blades. Hell, he could have a pair of relic blades if you wanted to waste points doing nothing.

There is no longer any rule restricting the number or combination of wargear you can have based on the number of hands it uses. The relic blade denies bonus attacks not because it's two handed, but because its rules explicitly say so. Saying a weapon or object is 'two handed' has absolutely no mechanical impact. Items need a special rule saying they act differently if they are going to be treated differnetly.



The Real Sanguinius said:


> It says any of the following....
> 
> Meaning ONE CHOICE OF WARGEAR.
> 
> No model in 40k can carry a power weapon AND a thunder hammer.
> 
> It's not only cheating - it's cheating in a ridiculous manner.


You're not just wrong, you're being wrong and rude in a ridiculous manner.
There is no rule whatsoever preventing a model from being armed in such a manner.

You may replace your pistol AND/OR chainsword with *any* of the following. (not one of the following)
You may replace your pistol with one of the following, and you may replace your chainsword with one of the following. You have two weapons to replace, so you have two options.

WHy do you think there's a big giant picture of a SM master wielding a pair of thunder hammers right in the book?

This is starting to get ridiculous and heated. Perhaps it would be best to start a new thread in the rules section asking for help to clarify this matter so we can move on? There's nothing preventing you from treating the vanguard vet leader as being armed with a normal power sword. Considering relic blades aren;t an option for BA it;s impossible for it to be anything else. Your gripe is pointless, and we have a thread for that as well.


----------



## Bindi Baji

hold on, now we're arguing about the lengths of "swords"?


----------



## OIIIIIIO

RAW state and/or ... I see not how this can be interpreted any other way ... now I personally would not take a Captain with a thunder hammer and a relic blade, but the fact is that you CAN. It is not cheating at all, as you are allowed to by spending an immense amount of points on one model. Quoted from pg 132 C:SM ... " Replace bot pistol and/or chainsword with: Bolter ... etc etc"
That means that you CAN replace the bolt pistol with the Relic blade AND replace the chainsword with the thunderhammer. Done.


----------



## Baltar

Galahad said:


> I don;t recall ever suggesting that it should be treated as a powerfist. I juist said you should have a powerfist instead.
> 
> As for how long the sword is, it still makes zero difference. If blood angels cannot have relic blades, then pobviously the two-handed power weapon in your sarge's hand is not a relic blade. The only thing it could possibly be is a power weapon.
> Considering you'd be paying PW points and using PW stats and the model is depicted holding a large powered blade, it's fair to say you've got a fucking power sword on your hands.
> 
> Seriously, you've yet to explain why this is an issue. Is someone really going to throw a fit at the table because they think your model is depicted carrying a weapon it absolutely cannot have, even though you're not treating it as said weapon, and it could just as easily be just a regular PW held in two hands?
> 
> That aside, you are very much incorrect regarding the relic blade requiring two hands at all times.
> Talth is correct. A SM captain or master can replace either or both of his weapons with those on the list, including relic blades. Hell, he could have a pair of relic blades if you wanted to waste points doing nothing.
> 
> There is no longer any rule restricting the number or combination of wargear you can have based on the number of hands it uses. The relic blade denies bonus attacks not because it's two handed, but because its rules explicitly say so. Saying a weapon or object is 'two handed' has absolutely no mechanical impact.Items need a special rule saying they act differently if they are going to be treated differnetly.


By that logic, you could replace the captains weapons with 2 storm bolters, or two of any of the ranged weapons on the list, in fact...

:no:

^ No.

The rule for the relic blade explicitely states that it is two handed.

The reason I see it as a problem is that, strictly speaking, your models should represent what they are supposed to be equiped with.

I have no doubt in my mind that any BA player taking that model would just call it a power sword... But... If they have any sense... then they are also going to want to claim that they have some kind of pistol weapon, too... For the extra attack (the only bonus of not having a relic blade)...

And he doesn't have one.

No doubt some people would claim that it's in a holster of some sort - but that wouldn't pass in my book. If it isn't on the model, then you ain't claiming that it's there (it's cheating, basically).

Why on earth would an assault marine just happent to fly across the battlefield with his gun in his holter... oh wait... they wouldn't....


----------



## Underground Heretic

Yeah, Bindi, it is pretty sad. Son of Horus reminded me that the biggest mistake in hobbies is to use your little space men to measure your value as a person, to be polite


----------



## OIIIIIIO

The Real Sanguinius said:


> By that logic, you could replace the captains weapons with 2 storm bolters, or two of any of the ranged weapons on the list, in fact...
> 
> :no:
> 
> ^ No.
> 
> The rule for the relic blade explicitely states that it is two handed.
> 
> The reason I see it as a problem is that, strictly speaking, your models should represent what they are supposed to be equiped with.
> 
> I have no doubt in my mind that any BA player taking that model would just call it a power sword... But... If they have any sense... then they are also going to want to claim that they have some kind of pistol weapon, too... For the extra attack (the only bonus of not having a relic blade)...
> 
> And he doesn't have one.
> 
> No doubt some people would claim that it's in a holster of some sort - but that wouldn't pass in my book. If it isn't on the model, then you ain't claiming that it's there (it's cheating, basically).
> 
> Why on earth would an assault marine just happent to fly across the battlefield with his gun in his holter... oh wait... they wouldn't....


Problem is that you are reading the fluff as the rule ... the rule is actually the paragraph below it. and if they do put a sheathed pistol on the model then what is the problem? It would be on the model as per what you would want you said, just not in the way that you deem proper. Gotta tell ya something ... the world doesn't give a shit about what you deem proper otherwise you would be writing the codices for GW.


----------



## Baltar

If they add it to the model, then I don't see a problem.

However, the model certainly doesn't come with one. If I weren't correct in this instance, then I don't see why GW would go to the whole trouble of brining out a BA sergeant SPECIFICALLY for the vanguard veteran squad.

The reason it's there is exactly as I've stated it. Because it's actually a suitable model.

The one that comes in the box is not, unless you alter it.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Then don't buy it?


----------



## Baltar

Talthewicked said:


> Then don't buy it?


As I said, if you want to use the vanguard veterans (which are an awesome option), then you're gonna want the models.

However, it also means that you would want to buy the BA sergeant (an appropriate model with both weapons), and for some reason it's an extra £10.

It's a money spinner. Pure and simple.

If BA were allowed the relic blade, then they couldn't have done the same thing.

Not unless someone was utterly determined to use the BA sergeant. But I don't see why, as it's not only expensive, but the guy with the relic blade looks way cooler.


----------



## Galahad

The Real Sanguinius said:


> By that logic, you could replace the captains weapons with 2 storm bolters, or two of any of the ranged weapons on the list, in fact...
> 
> :no:
> 
> ^ No.


Actually, you can.
You can have two boltguns, or two storm bolters. You just can't use them both because the rules don't allow multiple shooting attacks.
You should stop into the rules section sometime, its been discussed to death ever since they dropped the 'handedness' rules in 4th edition. Hell, even under 3rd, handedness only limited what weapons you could buy from the wargear list, it didn't stop you from buying extra weapons for a model (like SM Sgt) already armed with other weapons.

You seem to be suffering from a massive misconception about how the rules work.

There IS NO TWO-HANDED RULE anymore.
Just because a weapon is described as being two-handed does not mean it precludes you from having other equipment, or from *holding* it in one hand (likewise, nothing prevents you from holding a one-handed weapon in two hands).
Just take a look at any model equipped with a storm bolter. You almost never see them being fired in two hands. 



> The rule for the relic blade explicitely states that it is two handed.


And that means NOTHING
Seriously, where in the rules does it say that two handed weapons preclude you from taking other weapons
It USED TO.
It doesn't anymore. It hasn't for a while. The sole rules consideration for its two-handeness is that it denies you a bonus attack. It doesn't mean you can't hold the thing in one hand while you fire your storm bolter with the other, or swing your thunder hammer, or from sheathing it so you can better grip your boltgun
Go ahead, start a thread about this in rules discussion, or even just search for the subject, it'll all be explained to you.

You are now only limited by the amount of weapon options your model description allows. The SM captain starts with two weapons and may trade either of both of them for other weapons. This means you may have two weapons, even two weapons that usually fill two hands, even two weapons that the taking of both would be utterly useless and a waste of points.

Hell, take a look at the current BA codex PDF, the Chaplain can be equipped with a Powerfist, a Crozius and a Storm Bolter. That's three weapons, one of which is two-handed, and one of which completely replaces the user's hand, leaving him one free hand to contend with two weapons.

Funnily enough, sometime in the 41st millennium they invented scabbards, shoulder straps and holsters so you don;t have to carry everything in your hands at all times.



> The reason I see it as a problem is that, strictly speaking, your models should represent what they are supposed to be equiped with.
> 
> I have no doubt in my mind that any BA player taking that model would just call it a power sword... But... If they have any sense... then they are also going to want to claim that they have some kind of pistol weapon, too... For the extra attack (the only bonus of not having a relic blade)...
> 
> And he doesn't have one.


So now you're not arguing that the only thing it could possibly be is a relic blade. You're complaining that he doesn't have a pistol?



> No doubt some people would claim that it's in a holster of some sort - but that wouldn't pass in my book. If it isn't on the model, then you ain't claiming that it's there (it's cheating, basically).


That's just plain retarded.








Spot of glue, problem solved.

So as you established, there's nothing at all preventing the relic blade from being counted as a power weapon. The complaint now is that the model does nto have a pistol. Well, not every model is armed exactly the way you need it to be, that's why we have bits and basic hobby skills. Thirty seconds, one drop of superglue and no skill required and your problem is fixed. Hell, most of the vanguard models aren't equipped as I would have them, that's why I have nippers, bits and glue.



> Why on earth would an assault marine just happent to fly across the battlefield with his gun in his holter... oh wait... they wouldn't....


Unless he wanted both hands on his sword for a nice dramatic pose.
Why the hell would every SM with a rank of Sgt or higher fly into battle without a fucking helmet? Now is hardly the time to bring up logic vs dramatic posing when it comes to GW minis. LOL

Seriously, now you're just splitting hairs and grasping at straws now.

There's no rules conflict, there's no WYSIWYG conflict that can't be solved with the tiniest bit of effort (which can be said of almost every model in the game), in short: There is no problem.

The reason why there's a BA specific vanguard leader?
Could it be the melta pistol in his hand, or the ornate BA-centric details on his armor? Could it be people just like the looks of it better?

You're not being trapped by GW into buying a different model. At worst you're being forced to expend one of your spare bits.
That is, assuming you;re one of those people who bothers throwing money at metalminis when you can just as easily make beautiful models out of plastic and skill.

You'll never see metal vanguard on my end of the table, especially not with those beautiful plastic deathco and sanguinary guard minis. Bits from those added to normal marine weapons and jump packs = ornate, BA centric elite packers at less cost and with more customization.


----------



## Stella Cadente

I think your wasting your time guys, you may get a more stimulating conversation from a brick wall, sons logic and rules reading is flawed, we all know that, otherwise why would a marine holding a boltgun 2 handed also have a bolt pistol, why do chaos marines have a boltgun a pistol and a CCW, surely that in itself tells you that perhaps the whole 2 handed bullshit is gone, because it is.

although it does bring up an excellent in game advantage over him, if you model everyone in an assault squad holding a sword in 2 hands you must be *forced* to use it as a relic blade or eviscerator.


----------



## Galahad

I think it's pretty well sorted, Stella. You don't need to stir the pot.

Let's get back on subject instead. Have there been any sightngs of the new drizzlepenguin (or storm raven or whatever) having a model? Do you think thjat'll be FW first, or do you think GW will jump in and take it on themselves?


----------



## Stella Cadente

I think people are getting too hung up over the dumbraven to be honest, its not nearly as exciting as people are getting over it, and a little patience would probably help, I never saw people get this hyped up over anything before, and there is allot more thats more interesting than the dumbraven.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

I have searched for hours and through many retarded sights to try and find anything on the Storm Raven and I can't find anything. No pics, nothin.


----------



## Galahad

All I've seen is a picture of the fluff page for it.

I do think it's a bit overhyped, but I'm guessing it's because everyone is expecting it to be a better/cooler Valkyrie. I remember how much pants wetting happened over the valk.

I think it'll be cool, but not if it's the price of a land raider.I can hardly justify an LR these days, let alone something flimsier and less armed, even if it is a good transport.


----------



## EmbraCraig

If it's true that there are no pics in the codex (going on what others have said), I'm guessing we're not gonna see it for a while. Although the mention of the Grey Knights using it would line it up to be a nice release to go with the Inquisition codex if it's later on in the year (along with the plastic IG Storm Troopers that there were rumours of in the run up to the IG codex).

I liked the fluff text description though - the little brother of the Thunderhawk. Carries a squad plus a dread, putting it about half the size... could we be seeing the return of the old shoebox Thunderhawk from Epic?


----------



## Baltar

I seem to hear more complaining about the stormraven (or whatever) than anything else.

A model that hasn't even been released or seen, or played with yet, and people are willing to complain about it...

This tells me something about these people.


----------



## Lord Reevan

Astaroth the Grim


----------



## Baltar

Is the name Astaroth, or is it Astorath..?

I keep hearing people use both.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Astorath
And that model is badass ... I am not going to even use him but I will buy that one.


----------



## Lord Reevan

The codex, not great looking to be honest









Astorath the grim, looks very vampiric woo. could be a pretty cool chaos conversion too... 










Death company, comes with jump packs, normal back packs, special weapons, bolters CCWs and a hell of a lot of blood drops.









lemartes, Finally a decent looking model of him! would prefer a more CC orientated model but still looks pretty good









Sanguinor. Looks pretty sweet in every respect....









Seth, looks very flesh tearer-y....









Sanguinary guard assembled... quite nice.... Plus the vambrace mounted bolters.. pretty indeed


----------



## Baltar

The proportions of the big blood angel on the front of the codex are ridiculous. His right leg is huge. I know there is meant to be some perspective, but it isn't very apparent, so it just looks too big instead of looking closer. Poor artwork.

The sanguinor model blows my mind. The only thing I dislike about it is the sword - it looks quite wide. I think I'll probably find a nicer looking sword to replace it with... The Emperor's Champion sword, maybe......


----------



## Lord Reevan

That codex artwork is pretty bad alright. The vents on top of the marines helmets are the thin ones from way back before 4th ed. that is the codex up on the GW site though so it must be that.... unbfortunately....


----------



## Stella Cadente

I personally think Astorath is an awful model, just looks like mephiston with an axe and wings, really not very exciting.

lemartes is a little boring and static, but an improvement over the pile of crap we have now.

seth looks good, but I'd probably just use him as a captain with power sword (heck its such a huge chainsword I could probably get away with it being a power fist, unless eviserators become an option, otherwise powerfist is close enough for me) and slap on a jump pack

sanquinor is boring, probably be alright for a statue of sanquinius, but nothing more.

the plastics are great, and death company with boltguns actually look pretty badass, which is a good enough reason to take them, the vambrace boltguns were not very obvious before as well, but its much clearer in the new pics.

and the cover of course is a sick joke that should not exist


----------



## Baron Spikey

Those Death Company are, with the help of a Tactical Squad and Assault Squad, going to make a wonderful Stern Guard squad and fully equipped Assault Squad.

I actually like that Lemartes because in my minds eye when he's placed amongst the Death Company who are posed racing forwards he seems rather restrained and imposing- completely in character for one of the few Chaplains able to control the DC.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Out of curiosity I am wondering if people would bitch too much if I cut the power swords off at the hilt and green stuffed katana blades on some of these guys.


----------



## World Eater XII

the codex cover became reality.....for fucks sake


----------



## Lord Reevan

Talthewicked said:


> Out of curiosity I am wondering if people would bitch too much if I cut the power swords off at the hilt and green stuffed katana blades on some of these guys.


I hink there's one or two curved blades that look pretty cool already... But hells no! conversion is what makes this hobby great! make them yours by doing with them what you wish! A lot of them make me consider a converted to hell chaos army. sanguinor looks like a 40k version of sigvald or whatever that slaanesh guy from fantasy is...


----------



## Blue Liger

Lord Reevan I would be suprised if that's where the idea came from for the sanguinor!


----------



## timsmith

Finally got 2 look through the codex and what can i say...Awsom. If you look past the fancy tricks there is some solid combinations in there. I love the fact landraiders are dedicated and assault squads get a discount on dedicated transports, 205 points for a redeemer ect. 

These rules will work very nicely for my WIP pre heresy world eaters. Not 100% sure on the HQ's. There expensive and quite a few arnt IC. I think seth will see quite alot of play not because if his abilities but more because he is quite a bit cheaper then other options and can hide in a transport. 

The furioso dreads are pretty cool, WS6 is well....a little silly for me. but the blood tallons seem like a good option. \i think they went a bit ott on fast veh tho. although having a pred move 6 and fire all weapons is pretty good.

As to the Gunship cant say im that impressed AV12 still goes down reasonably easy 2 any dedicated anti-armour unit. 

All in all not over powered but def a power boost on some things

My personal gem of the codex after a first read has to be the sangunary priests. FnP and FC...yes please. 

Tim


----------



## Sethis

Yay. More Land Raider SPAAAAAAM lists. Exactly what we need. :headbutt:


----------



## World Eater XII

yep defo using these guys as preheresy world eaters, DP can be a crazy dreadnought and obs can just sit down!


----------



## KingOfCheese

World Eater XII said:


> yep defo using these guys as preheresy world eaters, DP can be a crazy dreadnought and obs can just sit down!


You know there is something wrong with the CSM Codex when all the CSM players are using loyalist chapters codecies (BA, SW, etc) to represent their armies.


----------



## Lord Reevan

I think it's a great way of doing it to be honest... it's fun to make something that isn't supposed to work that way wok so well.... 

Anybody got any confirmed release date yet??


----------



## timsmith

Aparantly its the 2nd acording 2 local GW. First sat in april so not long at all. Technacally pre heresy armys are loyalist. And what better way of representing WE than crazy assault troops on steroids! 

There will def be raider spam lists esspecially with a 35 point discount! 

Tim


----------



## fett14622

Lord Reevan said:


> Anybody got any confirmed release date yet??



April 3rd.


I got the chance to look at the new dex today for about 10 minuets. One thing I liked is that the Death Company are troop choice 0-1. But if you take Astorath the Grim as your HQ then 0-1 rule is removed. Astorath wasn't bad points wise, a little more than Lysander. 

Baals Preds. are a Fast choice too.


----------



## Warlock in Training

Shit, I think current Night Lords could be represented well by this Assault/DS happy army. All the Raptors flying about and Lightning Strike raids in the DS rules. 

Another good Chapter to use this dex would be Soul Drinkers  Happy Days.


----------



## Wax

joebloggs1987 said:


> You know there is something wrong with the CSM Codex when all the CSM players are using loyalist chapters codecies (BA, SW, etc) to represent their armies.


You know there is something wrong with CSM players when they want to bandwagon on to our codex for powercreep after we played two editions with a PDF. I didn't see any World Eaters players saying "Oh yeah, I using the BA PDF to represent pre-heresy." Before, now they come crawling out of the woodwork. Get off the bandwagon, stick to your own codex (I don't care how much it "sucks"), and learn to wait for your own update like a good kid, ok?

I don't care if you want to start a new army and paint some loyalists up at pre-heresy World Eaters, that's fine, cool in fact. But don't pull out your berserkers with spikes and chains on them, and Kharn and say, "Hey, I'm using the BA codex, ok?"


----------



## Stella Cadente

Wax_Assassin said:


> But don't pull out your berserkers with spikes and chains on them, and Kharn and say, "Hey, I'm using the BA codex, ok?"


but of course don't tell people what they can and cannot do with there models that they spent there money on.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Wax_Assassin said:


> You know there is something wrong with CSM players when they want to bandwagon on to our codex for powercreep after we played two editions with a PDF. I didn't see any World Eaters players saying "Oh yeah, I using the BA PDF to represent pre-heresy." Before, now they come crawling out of the woodwork. Get off the bandwagon, stick to your own codex (I don't care how much it "sucks"), and learn to wait for your own update like a good kid, ok?
> 
> I don't care if you want to start a new army and paint some loyalists up at pre-heresy World Eaters, that's fine, cool in fact. But don't pull out your berserkers with spikes and chains on them, and Kharn and say, "Hey, I'm using the BA codex, ok?"


Chaos Marines are likely to be waiting another 2 years+ for their own Codex to be redone, and even then a lot of players will hate it, because they'll never get one as detailed and complex as Pete Haines' one ever again. Blood Angels were only a PDF because the community, as a whole, didn't care enough to pay money for the Dex - and your PDF was still stronger than the (current) Chaos Codex EVER could throw out.

I don't think ANYONE has the right to impose their own draconian view of the hobby on someone who perhaps CANNOT possibly have fun when they know the army they WANT to play is Epic Fail, and auto-loses against either a better player OR a better list (of which there are an incredibly high number) - JUST MAYBE they shouldn't be made to feel as though they've wasted their money and time and should have a fair crack at enjoying their hobby?


----------



## Lucio

The cover looks like crap... not the artwork itself it just looks like... oh idk every other marine codex? having baal predators as fast attack seems a bit rediculous, GW trying to get us to spend more money on vehicles more than anything else. I like Blood Angels and the models look really nice from a painters prospective and a collectors but as a gamer not so much.

Cut it out with the power creep you aholes, make the armies balanced in each edition, not this flavor of the month crap.


----------



## TheKingElessar

The Codex seems incredible, yes. Then again, everything (and I mean pretty much EVERYTHING) is more expensive. Having to PAY for Searchlights, for example. When everyone gets over it, they'll realise the BA Dex is on the same level as SM, IG and Nids. It seems pretty balanced - even if it's slightly ahead of Wolves, and _perhaps_ even regular SM. Just because it makes Eldar, Orks, Chaos, Necrons etc look even shittier doesn't matter - none of those are from the same edition of the game.


----------



## Devinstater

My LGS just closed due to the owner having a sudden turn towards the worse health-wise. Really wanted to see what the rules were vis a vis Assault Marines. I want them to be viable soo badly. 

Was hoping to have a sneak peek at the dex before I buy it and join the Red Threat.


----------



## TheKingElessar

They _are_ Troops. They get free Jump Packs, or (MUCH) cheaper Transports. They can carry Meltaguns, Inferno pistols, cheap Plasma Pistols...

I think that may be enough to keep you salivating?


----------



## Wax

TheKingElessar said:


> Chaos Marines are likely to be waiting another 2 years+ for their own Codex to be redone, and even then a lot of players will hate it,


So you mean just like the time BA spent waiting for a new codex after 3rd?



> Blood Angels were only a PDF because the community, as a whole, didn't care enough to pay money for the Dex


I'm sorry, what? I happen to know that there were pleanty of people willing to shell out $25 for a new codex at any point in the last few years, myself being one of them. Maybe I'm not quite understanding this statement, care to elaborate?



> - and your PDF was still stronger than the (current) Chaos Codex EVER could throw out.


This is a bunch of BS and you know it. Sure Jawaballs has won plenty of tourneys with his 3x Baal Pred, 3x MM bikes, and RAS rhino spam. Just like Chaos can win with 2x lash (nerfed a little with Mech ed. true) and Oblit, plague marine spam. Just because you don't have lot's of viable options does not mean much.



> I don't think ANYONE has the right to impose their own draconian view of the hobby


Sorry that my views come across as "draconian" but I have a real hard time accepting bandwagon jumpers who just want the good stuff that comes with a new codex and don't want to invest the time and effort to build a real army for the armies sake. 

*Really I don't care what you do in your LGS with your friends.*

All I'm talking about is what I would say if I saw someone come into my LGS with that setup. I'm sure I'll already be facing enough "legit" BA mirror matches, to make me dislike the idea of facing off against a CSM who's jumping in for all the "COOL STUFF AND POWERCREEP LOL". Pick an army, and use what it gives you.



> on someone who perhaps CANNOT possibly have fun when they know the army they WANT to play is Epic Fail, and auto-loses against either a better player OR a better list (of which there are an incredibly high number) - JUST MAYBE they shouldn't be made to feel as though they've wasted their money and time and should have a fair crack at enjoying their hobby?


I dunno I managed to have fun with my army when the PDF was "Epic fail" and over-costed. If you CAN'T have fun with your army sounds like you picked the wrong hobby. Also, you SHOULD lose when playing a better player. That's the idea of a strategy game, the better player wins. As for losing to better lists, sounds like you should just become a better player. A good player has a chance to win with any army against any army. Saying otherwise is pretty silly. Sure, the odds can be against you sometimes (welcome to our world for the past few years), but you can still win AND have fun without being a bandwagon jumper. Have some class man, and as I said before: Be patient and wait your turn, just like we did, just like the Deldar, and =][= players are.


----------



## Cyklown

Oh, for fucks sake. I hate to jump into an argument, but where do you get off?

They took the chaos dex and turn it into one where there is exactly one powerfull build that utterly violates the fluff for chaos.

The made a list that perfectly suits a "psychotics run amok" list. It allows you to play an assaulty-spayce manz list. It's that or Space Puppies. _Games Workshop has not made a list that suits the flavor of Khorne aside from those two lists._

So, a list exists that allows Khorne to be both competitive and play like Khorne. If you don't like it then please don't insult people who just want to play an army that actually feels reasonably like Khorne. The "counts-as" rules are alive and well. Besides, they'll be playing as flesh tearers, who used the khorne list in the past, iirc, so it's really just a case of sharing the love.


----------



## Warlock in Training

Wax_Assassin said:


> So you mean just like the time BA spent waiting for a new codex after 3rd?


Just Like DE waiting and Necs been waiting your turn, dont even pull that crap. Theres more Desperate need of update dexes then BAs. I as a CSM player would slit someones throat for a PDF over our crap now. At least you guys got that over armies that been living 3rd edition days.



Wax_Assassin said:


> This is a bunch of BS and you know it. Sure Jawaballs has won plenty of tourneys with his 3x Baal Pred, 3x MM bikes, and RAS rhino spam. Just like Chaos can win with 2x lash (nerfed a little with Mech ed. true) and Oblit, plague marine spam. Just because you don't have lot's of viable options does not mean much.


Jawaballs (like Fritz) have found a way to take a semi decent armie and compete in Tourneys with mix results. Your PDF is well Proven to be a equal to CSM 4th. 



Wax_Assassin said:


> Sorry that my views come across as "draconian" but I have a real hard time accepting bandwagon jumpers who just want the good stuff that comes with a new codex and don't want to invest the time and effort to build a real army for the armies sake.


So what your saying is I should not be allowed to use BA rules for my Soul Drinkers or Night Lords? Even if those same said rules are perfect and within the fluff of said armies? Even though this is a Hobby all about conversion and making up your own shit for fun? Well I do what I please thank ya.



Wax_Assassin said:


> All I'm talking about is what I would say if I saw someone come into my LGS with that setup. I'm sure I'll already be facing enough "legit" BA mirror matches, to make me dislike the idea of facing off against a CSM who's jumping in for all the "COOL STUFF AND POWERCREEP LOL". Pick an army, and use what it gives you.


Why not, your either a Gamer or Hobbyist. The former is about Competitions and Tourneys. Lets face it, GW has promoted and encourage this Bandwagoning that your upset about cause of the Power Creep. Blame them not the guy trying to win without playing BA painted/model army.



Wax_Assassin said:


> I dunno I managed to have fun with my army when the PDF was "Epic fail" and over-costed. If you CAN'T have fun with your army sounds like you picked the wrong hobby. Also, you SHOULD lose when playing a better player. That's the idea of a strategy game, the better player wins. As for losing to better lists, sounds like you should just become a better player. A good player has a chance to win with any army against any army. Saying otherwise is pretty silly. Sure, the odds can be against you sometimes (welcome to our world for the past few years), but you can still win AND have fun without being a bandwagon jumper. Have some class man, and as I said before: Be patient and wait your turn, just like we did, just like the Deldar, and =][= players are.


I have tons of fun with my army. I love to find another Chaos Dex 3.5 for friendly games, like those who play IA armies. The fluff and wargear in there is fun. I have fun with finding ways to make my broke dick Dex work for my Slannesh Theme army. Still waiting on the plastic SoB to complete it. However if I or another sees a Dex that suits my playstyle and ideas, Im going to use it. You can play those same people or not. Blame GW for this Bandwagon crap.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Wax_Assassin said:


> Sorry that my views come across as "draconian" but I have a real hard time accepting bandwagon jumpers who just want the good stuff that comes with a new codex and don't want to invest the time and effort to build a real army for the armies sake.


Hmmmm. The game existed before this Edition, as you seem aware. Perhaps their army also existed before the current Chaos Codex, and was boned by it?



> *Really I don't care what you do in your LGS with your friends.*


Good, because I didn't ask you to. 



> Pick an army, and use what it gives you.


...Unless they take away the things you use when a new Codex comes out. Am I failing to be clear here?

:scratchhead:



> I dunno I managed to have fun with my army when the PDF was "Epic fail" and over-costed.


It wasn't - it was clearly run-of-the-mill. That's a damn sight better than Epic Fail in my book (or, indeed, PDF.)



> If you CAN'T have fun with your army sounds like you picked the wrong hobby.


 - Absolutely. And *if* your idea of fun involves preventing other people having any, then it's not just playing games you fail at. Just saying. This is a generic statement.



> Also, you SHOULD lose when playing a better player. That's the idea of a strategy game, the better player wins.


 - MOST of the time yes. Thing is though, a better player shouldn't auto-win, unless they also PLAY better, and have a better/equal army.



> As for losing to better lists, sounds like you should just become a better player. A good player has a chance to win with any army against any army. Saying otherwise is pretty silly.


Uh...OTHERWISE. I'm not sure you actually mean this, I think perhaps you're sufficiently riled that your cognitive function is diminished temporarily. 
Either that, or you've never actually SEEN a Dark Angel or Necron list. :dunno:


> Have some class man, and as I said before: Be patient and wait your turn, just like we did, just like the Deldar, and =][= players are.


Class? I'm not the one who insulted a swathe of players for no reason. In fact, I've done my best to avoid insulting anyone. As for 'waiting my turn' - the first army I ever played was Blood Angels...so, it IS my turn, after a fashion. Not to mention that the DE players that *I* know aren't exactly patient...it's a bit rich to complain about not getting a Codex update to them, see, when they've used the same one for 13 years. Your turn has now come twice before them, and I don't think they'd like you much. Especially since, in 5th, the PDF had two viable competitive builds, and they have one. *Shrug*

As regards the 'sales' part of my post, I meant EXACTLY that - Blood Angels sales weren't good enough for GW to consider a 'proper' Codex a priority. Y'know, like Chaos Dwarfs.


----------



## Galahad

I think when it comes to counts-as codexing the line has do be drawn with the amount of effort put in, just like with custom models that may or not have an advantage over stock.If you can tell it was done with a lot of effort because it better represents what you feel it should be, etc, that's a lot more excusable than someone who just plops down with nothing invested in it.

Wax, take a look at the link in my sig. I rewrote the SW codex fluff because I felt the rules better fit my BA successor chapter. I could have done it with the PDF rules, but I didn;t like the way that list played, so I invested some time and energy into creating somethign that was both fun to play and satisfying creatively.

If someone else wants to do the same using the new BA codex to represent something of their own, then more power to them.

It doesn't matter whose fluff or rules their using, so long as they're playing by the rules and having fun. That's what it boils down to. If you like a certain army for its fluff, but you can't have fun with their rules, then use someone else's. As long as you're playing by the rules and having fun then why the fuck should it matter?

Seriously, I don't see how someone can get so bent out of shape (and frankly, very rude) about something as inconsequential as what imaginary background story you have attached to your plastic spacemen and toy tanks.

When the dice hit the felt, the only thing that matters is the game rules. As long as the rules are followed and the list is legal, then why the fuck should I care if his pointy, spikey plasticspace men are representing normal, non-pointy plastic spacemen?

And if all the railing about how a good player can win every time with any list is true, then you've rendered your whole argument pointless.
If you're a good player you'll beat the other guy no matter whose rules he;s using, so why the fuck does it matter?


----------



## Devinstater

TheKingElessar said:


> They _are_ Troops. They get free Jump Packs, or (MUCH) cheaper Transports. They can carry Meltaguns, Inferno pistols, cheap Plasma Pistols...
> 
> I think that may be enough to keep you salivating?


That is enough to keep me salivating actually.


----------



## pathwinder14

Cyklown said:


> ..._Games Workshop has not made a list that suits the flavor of Khorne aside from those two lists._..


So Codex Chaos Space Marines allows you to take a DP, Kharn the Betrayer, and 6 squads of Berserkers in Rhinos as troops. You can also give the mark of Khorne to Chaos Terminators and Raptors. Is that not Khornate enough for you? I spent several years playing WE, and though the 3rd ed codex was better, the current one can make a very competitive and nasty army that can roll right over Space Marines.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Well, IMO they're better than Relentless Death Company, so at least there'll be one Troops you like. Then again, there's nothing wrong with a Troops choice Dreadnought either, apart from not-Scoring, I mean. :wink:


----------



## H0RRIDF0RM

I for one welcome the Blood Angels as they're another nex codex for me to punish with my Eldar.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

When I first started I was not even aware that there was a BA codex ...the LGS has a copy of all the printed codices that GW puts out. I did not know anything about the PDF until about a week before they announced the new BA codex. I started using Nilla marines because nothing else remotely used anything close to my play style. I LOVE assault marines, but with the C:SM they are fast attack. Thats OK, but I could only field a total of 30 of them, whether whey were AM, or VM. With this codex I can drop a total of 90+ guys on the board with jump packs (60 Assault Marines and 30 DC with Jump packs) ... This is my play style to a tee. Hell even the owner of the FLGS told me " You are going to be a terror when the codex comes out, this codex was written for you."


----------



## TheKingElessar

Especially when 'Descent of Angels' means that you don't Scatter 2d6" when you Deep Strike as Jump Infantry.


----------



## Devinstater

Talthewicked said:


> When I first started I was not even aware that there was a BA codex ...the LGS has a copy of all the printed codices that GW puts out. I did not know anything about the PDF until about a week before they announced the new BA codex. I started using Nilla marines because nothing else remotely used anything close to my play style. I LOVE assault marines, but with the C:SM they are fast attack. Thats OK, but I could only field a total of 30 of them, whether whey were AM, or VM. With this codex I can drop a total of 90+ guys on the board with jump packs (60 Assault Marines and 30 DC with Jump packs) ... This is my play style to a tee. Hell even the owner of the FLGS told me " You are going to be a terror when the codex comes out, this codex was written for you."



Yeah man. I fell in love with Jump Pack marines. Had I known there were other types of space marines I may also have chosen them initially. You can't change the past but from what I hear this codex suits my playstyle.


----------



## Cyklown

pathwinder14 said:


> So Codex Chaos Space Marines allows you to take a DP, Kharn the Betrayer, and 6 squads of Berserkers in Rhinos as troops. You can also give the mark of Khorne to Chaos Terminators and Raptors. Is that not Khornate enough for you? I spent several years playing WE, and though the 3rd ed codex was better, the current one can make a very competitive and nasty army that can roll right over Space Marines.


Oooh. _Wonderfull_.

Your solution is to field _Raptors_? That's fucking bril, that is. Oh, and you think that Kharn, who is from an era when unique characters did not effect the army who fielded them(among other things), should show up to all of your battles. It would be so terrible if Khorne cult armies had viable ICs that who, say, weren't unique or MCs that they could field. I don't like fielding crappy lists unless I walk into the game planning on doing it. I won't do it unless I agree to it beforehand. Heck, even then there are limits to what I'll drop to. I've got some lovely hawks models just lying around. They're one of the only squads I have fully painted, I finished them after the last time I took a break from 40k itself, ie shortly after the official gamesdev forum for 40k shut down. Ultimately, however, having a list that is actually capable of performing within it's playstyle is just as important as having units that represent said playstyle.

Gal: YES. *EXACTLY.*

I mean hell, I don't even play BA. I'm, if anything, bitter about GW blattantly pissing on the fluff and previous "what is capable in the 40k universe" rules and the designspace that they promised to other armies that haven't been updated to 5th (Smurfs getting open-topped fast skimmer transports? Fuck you, GW. Deepstriking melta"proof" assault transports? Fuck you, GW. Jervis telling me that they're thrilled to be supporting older lines and talking about how many exciting things they've found to give Astartes next to a picture of all the love that spayce manz have gotten? For fucks sake). 

I agree that it was time for BA to get a codex, but the fact that they're pissing on the existing world of 40k while making sure that 80% of their released are posthuman/loyalist is pretty frustrating. Having someone grab one of the lists that GW *IS* willing to make is perfectly reasonable to me, since GW hasn't seen fit to give them a list to fit their fluff in an effective manner. It's not like BA players didn't occasionally choose to use non-BA lists in the past.


----------



## pathwinder14

Cyklown said:


> Oooh. _Wonderfull_.
> 
> Your solution is to field _Raptors_? That's fucking bril, that is. Oh, and you think that Kharn, who is from an era when unique characters did not effect the army who fielded them(among other things), should show up to all of your battles. It would be so terrible if Khorne cult armies had viable ICs that who, say, weren't unique or MCs that they could field. I don't like fielding crappy lists unless I walk into the game planning on doing it. I won't do it unless I agree to it beforehand. Heck, even then there are limits to what I'll drop to. I've got some lovely hawks models just lying around. They're one of the only squads I have fully painted, I finished them after the last time I took a break from 40k itself, ie shortly after the official gamesdev forum for 40k shut down.  Ultimately, however, having a list that is actually capable of performing within it's playstyle is just as important as having units that represent said playstyle.
> 
> Gal: YES. *EXACTLY.*
> 
> I mean hell, I don't even play BA. I'm, if anything, bitter about GW blattantly pissing on the fluff and previous "what is capable in the 40k universe" rules and the designspace that they promised to other armies that haven't been updated to 5th (Smurfs getting open-topped fast skimmer transports? Fuck you, GW. Deepstriking melta"proof" assault transports? Fuck you, GW. Jervis telling me that they're thrilled to be supporting older lines and talking about how many exciting things they've found to give Astartes next to a picture of all the love that spayce manz have gotten? For fucks sake).
> 
> I agree that it was time for BA to get a codex, but the fact that they're pissing on the existing world of 40k while making sure that 80% of their released are posthuman/loyalist is pretty frustrating. Having someone grab one of the lists that GW *IS* willing to make is perfectly reasonable to me, since GW hasn't seen fit to give them a list to fit their fluff in an effective manner. It's not like BA players didn't occasionally choose to use non-BA lists in the past.



Wow, Could you use any more cuss words? How old are you? 15? Do you have the capability to argue without cussing? Did I cuss at you? Was I derogatory towards you? 

People like you are what's wrong with this game. You come off as a crybaby uber power gamer child that used your parents money to buy an army you'll never paint and never really learn how to play. There's more to Khornate armies than jump pack Berserkers. 

I have been playing since 1993. I have used every edition of the Chaos Codex. I still own them too. I have been to 2 Official GW GT's (Chicago 2001 and 2002 - back when GW actually produced a GT circuit). I have also competed in a Golden Daemon. I failed to place but got good marks from the judges. I have painted over 7 armies to better than tabletop quality standards. Click the link in my Sig to visit my humble site. Oh, and while you're at it please learn how to play your chaos codex. It is very effective and can still make nasty armies.


----------



## Chaoz94

look i know gaming can cause arguement but seriously
ITS A GAME!
its meant to be fun !
too me wax_assasin or however you spell your name
honestly , grow up a bit ,stop telling people what they can and cant do with there armies; and so what if the noobs have there armies brought for them by there parents , i was one once , and now im quite good at the game
hell i bet ALOT of current players started off the exact same way and are quite skilled now ,so i wouldnt go mocking other players , it just makes you seem like an immature kid whos overly pissed off at the world plus gamers like you give other gamers who just want to enjoy the game a really bad name , no wonder people are moving on to warmachine and hordes

rageing over , i cant wait to get my hands on this codex

chaoz


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## pathwinder14

I rarely get into flame wars but Cyklown started cussing when I simply stated the Chaos Codex could be very competitive. He needs to grow up a bit. Here's how to build a competitive Khornate army in 2000 points.

Khorne DP
Kharn the Betrayer
2 units of Berserkers in Rhino
1 unit of Berserkers in a LR
2 units of 3 Oblits

You put Kharn in the LR with the unit of Bersekers. You use the DP to hunt down enemy armor. You use the Oblits to take out other light armor and irritating units (devastators). You use the Berserkers for killing enemy troops and taking objectives.

If that's not close to 2000 points I'm sure you could get more fun stuff like a Lascannon Predator.


----------



## Mr J0se

guys seriously if you want to argue about army lists for C:CSM then do it in private messages, this is just spam.


----------



## VanitusMalus

I'm actually going to argue both sides of the coin on this one:

Concerning individuals using codexes from other armies as the rules for their army that is totally fine with me. If you feel your Night Lords army is better suited with the BA codex than the Chaos Space Marine one than that is fine. As along you well define what is what and I can see that I have no problem with it. 

However on the darker side of that coin. If you try and use the Tyranids Codex with a bunch of IG yeah sorry not going to fly and you can make up whatever weird ass story you like, but I will never believe that model of Solar Macharius has the same stat line and special rules as a Tyranid Hive Tyrant.

This is more of an argument of believability. If you have an army painted up as a Chaos facton you created that is similar rules wise to Space Wolves, than in friendly games there should be no problem with facing that force, however if you have an army of Eldar, painted up in Chaos colours and you are trying to use the Chaos Space Marine codex, I might have an issue with that.


----------



## KingOfCheese

VanitusMalus said:


> I'm actually going to argue both sides of the coin on this one:
> 
> Concerning individuals using codexes from other armies as the rules for their army that is totally fine with me. If you feel your Night Lords army is better suited with the BA codex than the Chaos Space Marine one than that is fine. As along you well define what is what and I can see that I have no problem with it.
> 
> However on the darker side of that coin. If you try and use the Tyranids Codex with a bunch of IG yeah sorry not going to fly and you can make up whatever weird ass story you like, but I will never believe that model of Solar Macharius has the same stat line and special rules as a Tyranid Hive Tyrant.
> 
> This is more of an argument of believability. If you have an army painted up as a Chaos facton you created that is similar rules wise to Space Wolves, than in friendly games there should be no problem with facing that force, however if you have an army of Eldar, painted up in Chaos colours and you are trying to use the Chaos Space Marine codex, I might have an issue with that.


Pretty much agree with all of the above.

Only thing i dont like is when people jump between marine codecies depending on which one is more powerful.

If someone wanted to use the Blood Angels codex to represent Night Lords then thats fair enough, purely for the fact that the Blood Angels codex fits the Night Lords fluff better, providing that the player sticks to units that chaos would have access too (no Land Speeders etc).

When people jump between codecies because they are more powerful, and not because of fluff reasons, then i have an issue with it.

If someone ran a Khorne army using the Blood Angels codex i would still let them play, but i would look down on them considering a whole army of Berzerkers with jump packs is unfluffy, and you can still make a perfectly fluffy and very effective Khorne army with the current CSM codex.


----------



## Cyklown

First!
Counts-as lists are tricky. The nid list would work if you made a 'stealer cult army using the nids list and simply made the models look the part, no? Just no TMCs. :wink:

I'll drop the little spamfest after this, I just saw a few comments that were a little too... glaring to drop. Attacking me for what I say while ignoring half of the words I words is a pet peeve of mine.



pathwinder14 said:


> Wow, Could you use any more cuss words? How old are you? 15? Do you have the capability to argue without cussing? Did I cuss at you? Was I derogatory towards you?


I appologize; I curse a great deal. This is a forum that allows cursing. I use f-bombs as a sometimes overused but always expressive part of the language. I'm sorry if it feels like a personal attack. It's really down to being to lazy to edit instances of the words out of my initial draft although initial draft makes it sound like there's any sort of quality control whatsoever, which would be a blatant falsehood. If my unwillingess to filter that part of what I say out bothers you then I appologize and encourage to not take me as seriously.



> People like you are what's wrong with this game. You come off as a crybaby uber power gamer child that used your parents money to buy an army you'll never paint and never really learn how to play. There's more to Khornate armies than jump pack Berserkers.


So, I'm a powergamer for arguing that _other people_ who would rather not play a powerfull but unfluffy list should be able to play a current list that matches their desired playstyle? Would you rather they play the 3.5 codex or something? This list apears powerfull in that configuration than a cult of Khorne list made from the chaos dex.
I don't play any MEQ armies. I stated that this was all in defense of players who wanted to do this. Calling me a power gamer because I defend behavior that does not benefit me in the slightest is rediculous. I'd rather people brought a good list to the table, no matter what they want to play. The fact that loyalists are getting all the love these days show not prevent Khorne from drinking Eldar blood.

Do I want other people to "powergame"? Yes. "Casual" games are all fine and good, but I'd like people to play to win. To me, that's fun. Even if they beat me.



> Oh, and while you're at it please learn how to play your chaos codex. It is very effective and can still make nasty armies.


Where on earth did you get the impression that I play Chaos? I said that I don't.



pathwinder14 said:


> I rarely get into flame wars but Cyklown started cussing when I simply stated the Chaos Codex could be very competitive. He needs to grow up a bit. Here's how to build a competitive Khornate army in 2000 points.
> 
> Khorne DP
> Kharn the Betrayer
> 2 units of Berserkers in Rhino
> 1 unit of Berserkers in a LR
> 2 units of 3 Oblits
> If that's not close to 2000 points I'm sure you could get more fun stuff like a Lascannon Predator.


I already hit the cursing side of things, so:

I said competitive, not "amusing/cool and not entirely terribad". I'm not claiming it's a Wraithguard and Swooping Hawks theme army. I'm saying that if I'm actually trying to make a "good" army rather than a "fun army I'd be willing to play" then the chaos list does not allow you to play Khorne or really anything else particularly fluffy. 

People who want to use jet-pack based assault OR cc monster MEQs currently have two lists available. They've both been made for loyalists.

In any case, the thought proccess runs to "this would be fun to field", while laudible, is not something that belongs in a discussion about viable lists. I'll play "fun" games too but if I'm not explicitly playing casually, I play to win. Which is, of course, different from being any good at it. I hope the people I'm playing against will play to win. A different attitude doesn't stop us from playing the same game, or even from enjoying a game together from time to time. It should, however, stop you from talking about the competitive side of the game while your "just for fun" hat is on. You may very well be good without a competitive list, heck you're likely better at the tabletop side of the game than me. You'd be better if you added a bit more science rather than art to your army lists, however.

In any case, I'll take it up with you both in PM, if you want. There's no reason to make everyone else put up with my immaturity and your not reading what I say. 

Heck, depending on how things go we can maybe get a game in, if stomping a powergaming "chaos player"'s eldar army will make you feel better about me needing the most baddass list possible to try to win.


----------



## Sethis

EDIT: Ninja'ed by the defendant, left here for posterity anyway.



pathwinder14 said:


> Wow, Could you use any more cuss words? How old are you? 15? Do you have the capability to argue without cussing? Did I cuss at you? Was I derogatory towards you?
> 
> People like you are what's wrong with this game. You come off as a crybaby uber power gamer child that used your parents money to buy an army you'll never paint and never really learn how to play. There's more to Khornate armies than jump pack Berserkers.
> 
> I have been playing since 1993. I have used every edition of the Chaos Codex. I still own them too. I have been to 2 Official GW GT's (Chicago 2001 and 2002 - back when GW actually produced a GT circuit). I have also competed in a Golden Daemon. I failed to place but got good marks from the judges. I have painted over 7 armies to better than tabletop quality standards. Click the link in my Sig to visit my humble site. Oh, and while you're at it please learn how to play your chaos codex. It is very effective and can still make nasty armies.


In the comments aimed at you, he swore once. Specifically "fucking brilliant". my interpretation of that is that he is expressing his annoyance at the poor unit choices forced on him by an inadequate codex, not him swearing at you.

Every single other swearword is directed at GW (a sentiment I'm sure a lot of us can empathise with, at one point or another) for not giving him a codex capable of creating a competitive list based around one of the 5 primary chaos legions.

I personally think that YOU have been far more insulting and childish in your response than Cyklown ever was in his original post. You come across as an arrogant dick who'd rather see the world of warhammer burnt to ashes around you then accept that there are people who have been playing for LESS time than you who might have valid complaints with current products.

Either that or you catastrophically mis-interpreted his post, either way, I'd throw out an apology if I was in your shoes.


----------



## KingOfCheese

Can we please get this thread back on topic?

I want to hear more discussion about Blood Angels, and less personal arguments and bitching. 
If you feel the need to continue the argument, then take it to PM's. Nobody else wants to hear it.


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## Viscount Vash

KingOfCheese said:


> Can we please get this thread back on topic?
> 
> I want to hear more discussion about Blood Angels, and less personal arguments and bitching.
> If you feel the need to continue the argument, then take it to PM's. Nobody else wants to hear it.


Thats a good idea. Lets go for that one.


Just been looking at the pics on GW UK and Im tempted with the idea of all jump packs.


----------



## Cyklown

So, thoughts on defeating them?

It still seems like metal boxes are the way to go, although moving 12" makes the boxes less OMFGawesome. Combine that with judicious application of powerfists and... there you go. S6 attacks on the charge from certain units probably wouldn't help either.

It's downright magical that this is the first skimmer I've seen that doesn't have av10 for the purposes of CC. The monolith doesn't count. It's not a skimmer so much as something that just so happens to float there. Heh.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

I know it seems obvious but bunch the army together and start shooting at the nearest unit that can cause the most damage with a lot. 

Personally I set up with dark reapers and pathfinders in a building and they are the fire support. I then set up a bait with guardians and a wraithlord for the jumpacks to race towards. Then I have a jetbike autarch and full squad of bladestorming dire avengers hanging in a wave serpent. Finally my "lone wolves" consisting of a falcon and fire dragons go on tank hunting missions and after independant characters that do not benefit from eternal warrior like Dante, Mephiston and Lemartes for example.

Having already played them they are probably the only army bar tyranids that scare me with how fast they get into combat.


----------



## World Eater XII

Tsons time maybe?


----------



## Sethis

I'm probably going to follow my usual Eldar tactic of driving around the table "circling and screaming 'I don't give a fuck' with my windows down and system up" and avoiding anything that looks scary.

My Scout army is probably F'd in the A though.


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## Winterous

pathwinder14 said:


> Wow, Could you use any more cuss words? How old are you? 15? Do you have the capability to argue without cussing? Did I cuss at you? Was I derogatory towards you?


ITT: Pathwinder is oversensitive and was much more insulting than he claims Cyklown was.


On topic.
I don't understand why people think vanilla Assault Marines aren't good, they're perfectly fine.
I mean, they're more expensive than Tactical Marines, and they aren't scoring, but those aren't really problems; cost because you aren't even paying for a Transport (which seems to be obligatory these days), and scoring because they're charging into the enemy, they're more useful to contest.


----------



## Cyklown

Well sure, but it's nice to be able to hold the objective if you clear the enemy off.


24" movement is certainly faster than 12". That's certainly true. We may be shafted, but at least our metal cans are amazing. Tau, though... I mean, 12" movement? Oops, they started running.

Gunline of any kind, specifically the fragile kind is right-well horked, however. It's the sign of the times, I suppose.

As far as the other suggestion: maybe it's just me, but I'm not about to field pathfinders as a firebase. They can certainly shoot, but to me they're more objective-holds that can shoot, not shooty units. I mean, how much shooting will they get taken care off before the enemy moves 24"? It's not as if they can survive flammer hits, let alone CC. And I'd hate what hidden PFists will do to a wraithlord, especially since that guardian squad that provides the warlock handles flamers and/or lawnmower cc units slightly better than rangers.

It'll be interesting to see if Crisis suit configurations have to change to deal with it, to something where ap 2/1 is fielded more. Fireknife is great, but it is giving up vollume for range.


----------



## TheKingElessar

Sethis said:


> I'm probably going to follow my usual Eldar tactic of driving around the table "circling and screaming 'I don't give a fuck' with my windows down and system up" and avoiding anything that looks scary.
> 
> My Scout army is probably F'd in the A though.


Fuck. I can't fairly change my sig twice in a week, otherwise you'd be totally sigged for this. Ho-hum, it'll go on my User CP Notepad, along with any other genius things people say. Except me. I save my own brilliance in Notepad documents. 

As for defeating BA? Run. Run and gun - they will not outgun you, if IG or (probably) even regular SM...but they WILL munch you in CC, so GTFO while you can before they beat the shit out of you. Wolves can get the drop on them, and come out on top in CC, and so can Nids - who will also have a fair chance at shooting the bollocks out of them too. DE and SoBs have a decent chance of slowing them enough to get the job done, but Eldar, Orks, Chaos, Necrons, GKs and even BTs are going to learn to hate playing against them. YMMV - not everyone is as good at the game as me! :laugh::wink:


----------



## Winterous

TheKingElessar said:


> Run and gun - they will not outgun you


There's a reason Sternguard exist, and this is it.


----------



## pathwinder14

To Sethis and Wintrous:
Let me get this straight. Cyklown comments on the uselessness of the current Chaos Codex. I politely point out how it can be competitive. He then cusses multiple times to me in his reply. I then give an appropriately defensive post about how he drew first blood, and I'm the childish one? Wow. I thought whoever attacked first was the bad guy. Guess I'm wrong. :headbutt:

To Cyklown: np, I'm all for having a good discussion. I am just not for every army to be super powered. An army should have power and fluff....balance. But that is my opinion. When I saw F bombs coming my way I immediately took offense and thought your reply was an attack on me personally. Who wouldn't? If it was not an attack on me then I apologize.


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak

Balance...that is why the Charred Council made the Horsemen of the Apocalypse to kill the Armies of Heaven, Hell and Mannkind to restore the Balance....yes...Balance...i will refrain from making my Horsemen = Chaos Gods theory here....but there has to be inbalance with Codicies for balance to be restored...if you get what i mean...GW makes an unblanced Codex, in order to experiment to work out how to 'improve' the next editions codex

^ I lost myself in that...

Someone needs to mindfuck an opponent by creating a shootie BA army, no one would expect that...which makes it funny


----------



## TheKingElessar

Personally - and this is not an attack on ANYONE - I think that using the word 'cussing', and acting as though it wasn't a normal and perfectly legitimate part of the lingua franca, is FAR more childish than any amount of swearing is. Perhaps they see things the same way.

In all honesty, when I saw you say it was a lot of swearing I did a double-take, because I thought it was, if anything, very little. YMMV, and clearly it does.

If yuo want to have a thread about the Chaos Codex, please PM me, I'll join in happily and tell you how shit it is, but this much is clear:

a Khorne list could be made, with the new BA Dex, in such a way that is FAR superior in game terms, and at least as valid in fluff terms, to the CSM Dex equivalent.

Winterous - BA Sternguard also exist. Anyway, no, it isn't. What you want to stop BA (as 'Nilla Marines) is TH/SS, MM/HF Speeders, Dakka Preds, Rifleman Dreads, Telion...basically, the stuff you want anyway. Only real difference becomes target priority. And THAT, kiddies, is a topic for another day/thread/my blog/the new Heresy Blog...hmm. That's an idea...


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## Jezlad

> And THAT, kiddies, is a topic for another day/thread/my blog/the new Heresy Blog...hmm. That's an idea...


I have a target priority article listed as a must have  Do you want to give it a shot?


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## Cyklown

Some people troll for attention. Some people hunt for sport. Jez... begs for articles. :ducks:


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## TheKingElessar

Jezlad said:


> I have a target priority article listed as a must have  Do you want to give it a shot?


Well...since you asked...:grin:

I'm up for the challenge, BUT I don't have Vassal anymore, so I'll have to reacquire myself one of those. Luckily, I have 8/9 armies available for real photos in the meantime, and I can try to get my IG up to standard for photos too. I'd also happily accept photos of other people's armies, lol, and photoshop large red arrows and stuff.


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## Winterous

pathwinder14 said:


> I then give an appropriately defensive post about how he drew first blood,


I said you were oversensitive, not a dick.
You overreacted to him swearing because you're oversensitive, so you got all defensive and ended up insulting him without realising he wasn't doing anything wrong.



pathwinder14 said:


> When I saw F bombs coming my way I immediately took offense and thought your reply was an attack on me personally. Who wouldn't?


Most people wouldn't, that's why I'm saying you're oversensitive.



TheKingElessar said:


> Winterous - BA Sternguard also exist. Anyway, no, it isn't. What you want to stop BA (as 'Nilla Marines) is TH/SS, MM/HF Speeders, Dakka Preds, Rifleman Dreads, Telion...basically, the stuff you want anyway.


But don't they have a delightfully high volume of high strength attacks, thereby making your Terminator Armour not that good?

And two questions, what's a Rifleman Dread?
And why would you take Telion? He seems to me to just be an over-priced sniper.


----------



## Katie Drake

Winterous said:


> And two questions, what's a Rifleman Dread?


Two twin-linked autocannons.


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak

Winterous said:


> And why would you take Telion? He seems to me to just be an over-priced sniper.


because BS 6 on a scout ML is nice, and he can stand his own with a sniper scout squad, all shooting roughly at 36" for snipers and Telion and 48" for ML, besides once you cleanse him of his Smurf filth he's a nice model


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## Winterous

Katie Drake said:


> Two twin-linked autocannons.


I can see that that would be a terror to transports!
Less so than Hydras though, because they're much cheaper.

Anyway, I've been wanting to ask this simple question for a while, is it commonly thought that you should capitalise on the higher BS of a Venerable Dreadnought by taking guns that aren't twin-linked?
I mean, the twin-linking benefits BS4 more than BS5, And the non-linked guns are basically more effective besides accuracy.



WarlordKaptainGrishnak said:


> because BS 6 on a scout ML is nice, and he can stand his own with a sniper scout squad, all shooting roughly at 36" for snipers and Telion and 48" for ML, besides once you cleanse him of his Smurf filth he's a nice model


I guess so, but he _is_ 50 points on top of the Sergeant he replaces.
You could buy another 3.8-ish snipers for that.


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak

well depending on what you target, you could get your points worth back, ie; SC, or IC & Retinue


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## Cyklown

Well, it's an extra 7/36 chances to hit with that ML. That's still huge.

Additionally, while weight of fire is quite valuable, reliability of fire is also primo. Your dakka to points ratio is important, but so is knowing that you just expect something to do it.

tl shots at BS 5 mean you'll miss 1 out of 36 shots. Being about to count on all 4 autocannon shots hitting a certain percentage of the time means that while your chances of taking out a certain number of transports out are not guarantee'd your ability to count on that one rhino going boom aproach 1. I mean, 2/3 odds of a glance, 2 pens per shooting phase? Aside from the 2/3ths of a destroyed results transport up you're looking at 8/9th of a imobilized result and an 8/9 of a weapon destroyed. Your odds to effectively glance the damn thing to death get reliable at that point.

Not that more dakka isn't key. I just like knowing that stuff will do what I want it to, especially as the points costs get higher.


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## Wax

Winterous said:


> I guess so, but he _is_ 50 points on top of the Sergeant he replaces.
> You could buy another 3.8-ish snipers for that.


Telion can also assign his own wounds. Use him to pick out PF, special weapons, and characters in squads.


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak

Wax_Assassin said:


> Telion can also assign his own wounds. Use him to pick out PF, special weapons, and characters in squads.


excellent :chuffed:


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## Winterous

Wax_Assassin said:


> Telion can also assign his own wounds. Use him to pick out PF, special weapons, and characters in squads.


Oh yeah, THAT pays for itself!


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak

Winterous said:


> Oh yeah, THAT pays for itself!


and that, Winterous, is why ppl take Telion :grin:


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## Winterous

WarlordKaptainGrishnak said:


> and that, Winterous, is why ppl take Telion :grin:


Now if only he had a Lascannon...


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak

Winterous said:


> Now if only he had a Lascannon...


or it was an option for scouts, an outflanking possibly BS6 lascannon shot...:shok: the tears of joy which come to my eyes


----------



## Sethis

"You call that a sniper rifle? *hefts Lascannon* THIS is a sniper rifle..."

I like Telion, but I'm not convinced he is a viable answer to Blood Angels. He would have to get a Rending wound in order to reliably kill a Space Marine PF/Special weapon. The rest of the squad isn't all that reliable either, 8 Sniper shots = 4 hits = 2 wounds, and occasionally one of those is Rending. And a BS6 Rocket launcher IF Telion doesn't shoot. It just doesn't seem worth the 230-odd points in my mind (if you give them cloaks).

The only reason I take them in my Scout army is because they can cap objectives. Otherwise I'd swap them out for 230 points of Devestators in a second (BS5 Lascannon > BS6 Krak Missile).

I also have a Mortis/Rifleman Dread and Chronus in an Auto/Las pred. They LOVE it when people drive at me in Rhinos... :laugh:


----------



## MidnightSun

On the topic of Dreads, with this codex they have *Jump-Packing Librarian Dreadnoughts.*

Midnight


----------



## Winterous

Sethis said:


> (BS5 Lascannon > BS6 Krak Missile)


You have to remember though that that bonus only applies to a single model.



Sethis said:


> I also have a Mortis/Rifleman Dread and Chronus in an Auto/Las pred. They LOVE it when people drive at me in Rhinos... :laugh:


Are Lascannon sponsons really worth it?
I thought they were just a huge point sink, unless you kept the poor thing in cover all the time.


----------



## Leviticus

Auto/Las variant is very effective, I use two in my Space Wolves army, accompanied by two tllc and tlac dreadies. Both work very well together in either pegging down transports ot putting wounds on monstrous creatures (only reason I take lascannons, if not I would go dual tlac)

New BA competitive units:

Assault Squads in transports- Cheap effective troop choice. Placing them in a DT lowers the cost of the DT by 35 (15 pt FAST rhinos!). Come in much cheaper than their Tac squad brothers...and more effective. Special Weapon per 5 guys

Librarian Furioso Dreads- AV 13, str 6 force weapon, psychic hood, two powers (always wings atleast). The best unit by far in the whole army (IMO...it covers so much ground in terms of versatility for no more than 180 pts!)

Librarians- Should be the auto pick HQ for versatile tourney play. The powers are just too good to resist. Toss one of these into an assault squad rhino +Sang priest. Hav an scoring squad with FnP, Furious Charge, and Unleashed Rage (Preferred Enemy) for a realtively cheap price tag. Fear of the Darkness is an invaluable power.

Baal Predators- Scouting, Fast...

Rifleman Dreads- Should be the Heavy Support of choice in tourney play. Fast vindi's are nice but at a hefty price tag, storm ravens are too expensive for av12 personally....

Sang Priests- Auto takes in 3's

Multi Melta Attack Bikes- Should still be our dedicated anti-amor!

And that sums up all of the competitive features of the book. I know I will see people defending DanteWing armies...or all DS armies....but look to DW and Logan Wing/Drop Pod lists for all those wonderful results....

Special characters are too expensive for the little they do. Tycho is probably the most cost efficient HQ (LD 10 across the board + sternie ammo is not bad). Dante is not nearly as good as he once was with the introduction of Sang Priests (not to mention his Perdition Pistol is no more...). Astorath seems OK at best, but quite a heft price tag for someone who MAY allow SOME squads to get FC SOMEtimes....for his price you just get 2 sang priests + Librarian HQ and call it a wrap. Seth is not very good. The Sanguinor/Mephiston non IC status made them officially suck FOREVER!. And that's pretty much it for Special HQ's. I would say Corbulo is pretty darn good, but I would rather get 2 sang priests in his place. Lemartes is actually alot better...but you must take DC with him...and with Assault Squads looming over the DC in terms of effectiveness...it makes him useless.

The book is no where near as competitive as Guard, Wolves, IG, or even (in the handsof a GOOD player) a Lash chaos list. But they are definitely able to hold mid-tier solidly. Again this is all just a competitive over view, will definitely be playtesting ths blokes and see if I eat my words (in either the positive or negative)


----------



## Warlock in Training

Wait, wait, WAIT.... Mephiston is not a IC? Whaaaaaaa :shok:. 

Awsome for me if its true, I thought this Overpowered A$$hole was complete BS. At first. is this right?


----------



## Sethis

Winterous said:


> You have to remember though that that bonus only applies to a single model.


I'm not sure what you mean. Telion gives the Scout BS6 for 1 shot, a Dev Sergeant using a Signum gives 1 heavy weapon BS5, which will inevitably be a Lascannon. You also don't need to pay 50 pts for the Signum and S9 AP2 beats S8 AP3 hands down.



Winterous said:


> Are Lascannon sponsons really worth it?
> I thought they were just a huge point sink, unless you kept the poor thing in cover all the time.


They're worth it if the vehicle ignores all stunned and shaken results and is BS5! :biggrin: It's either that or a dakka pred, because I can't think of a reason to spend 60 points on 1 shot unless it's a Railgun.


----------



## Winterous

Sethis said:


> I'm not sure what you mean. Telion gives the Scout BS6 for 1 shot, a Dev Sergeant using a Signum gives 1 heavy weapon BS5, which will inevitably be a Lascannon. You also don't need to pay 50 pts for the Signum and S9 AP2 beats S8 AP3 hands down.


That's what I means, the Signum is just for the one model, the way you said it could have meant it applied to all of them.



Sethis said:


> They're worth it if the vehicle ignores all stunned and shaken results and is BS5! :biggrin: It's either that or a dakka pred, because I can't think of a reason to spend 60 points on 1 shot unless it's a Railgun.


You're spending 60 points on two shots through, which is 30 points per Lascannon, which is better than the cost on Devastators.
35 points for a single Lascannon? Fuck that, take them on Tac squads.


----------



## Leviticus

@Warloc

Yes that's right. I have seen the book and he is NOT an IC....nor is Sanguinor. Rather, THE Sanguinor .

And no...DC dreads will never be worth it...not when you can take Librarian Dreads. No other dread is worthwhile in the book. The only other good one is Furioso's with Blood Talons +Magna Grapple. (Speaking competitively...of course)


----------



## timsmith

I think the strength in the codex is the assault squads, there cheap and make the dedicated transports cheaper! You can now take melta guns and combine them with a sangunarry priest and the nuts. 

The hq's are a bit more tricky they are rather expencive for any characters. Seth is pretty good. Astroth has a jp which means no transport. The libbys seem good but then again a librarian dread can fill the role really well at 175 points, ws6 str6 force weapon and some cool psychic powers and the all important psychic hood. although he is elites I believe.

Death company are pretty awsom for 1 point less than a berzerker and they gain FC, Fearless, FnP and rage. They can take as many pw/pf/th as they like and although they loose rending a couple of PW equates to 8 st5 ws5 attacks on the charge. Enough 2 handle most things me think. 

Attack bikes are still great AT which is what you need 2 be careful you don't go without. Its pretty tempting 2 go all CC but you have 2 get there. LR are still strong as are TH/SS or LC termies prob best is a mix. 

Baal preds are nice and flame storm cannon seem ok but with all the mech you gunna have 2 crack the armour first. But will be nice to go after say dev squads or squads out of transports. Useful but I'm not sure there essential. I think I prefer the assault cannon HB but at 145(I think) there not so cheap. Maybe ac/LC for 135 would be more effective as a fast veh. 

Ill be posting some army list idea's soon and let's see what we can come up with. 

Tim


----------



## Leviticus

Tim is correct with assault squads. They're the best troops.

Althought I disagree on the librarian HQ issue. With all of the great psychic powers, even having a stock librarian as a great boost to the furiosos in terms of psychic defense. Aso Unleashed Rage is an amazing power, which furiosos can't grant to the other squads, but a regular librarian can.


----------



## Stella Cadente

Leviticus said:


> Tim is correct with assault squads. They're the best troops..


I have to heavily disagree, people are getting too much tunnel vision with assault squads and labeling them as the best, but never look at what there best at.

are they the best at holding an objective?
are they the best at outflanking an enemies weak spot?

the answer to all is no

there the best at being a cheap effective objective taker, working alongside tactical squads for holding, and scout squads for flank supporting, they cannot be the best end of without one of the others at least.


----------



## pathwinder14

Winterous said:


> I said you were oversensitive, not a dick.
> You overreacted to him swearing because you're oversensitive, so you got all defensive and ended up insulting him without realising he wasn't doing anything wrong.
> 
> Most people wouldn't, that's why I'm saying you're oversensitive.


Meh, you're prolly right. I'm used to other forums where cussing is uncommon or not even allowed. Waryammer.com and 40kfightclub. I also notice the swearing that exists on TV and other media and am amazed/shocked at how prevalent it is. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for freedom of speech but when every sentence contains a cuss word, the emphasis the expletive was intended to bring is lost.

Sorry to hijack. I now return to the topic at hand.


----------



## Stephen_Newman

I know Librarian dreadnoughts sound good and all but they still come down easy when shot with bright lances or charged into combat with a wraithsord wielding wraithlord.


----------



## Lord Reevan

I disagree with everyone about making the few competitive lists right now. Until games can be played with the codex nobody will know what is competitive. Most people when they see the current codex.pdf they think assault only army. But I and many other people have made very effective balanced and ll shooty BA armies. 

Tunnel vision towards codices is stupid. seriosuly like thinking of a codex as this and bog all else is gonna just cripple the codex's effectiveness of other styles. As Stella said assault squads are not the best troops choices. They are good but they are in no way the best troops. troops are meant to be good at holdng the objectives from others not just clearing it. they have to work in unison to be effective. thinking of them as single entities is useless as they are a combined force....


----------



## TheKingElessar

Well...Assault Squads _are_ the single best. Whether or not the need others to help is irrelevant to that point - they are, in a vacuum, better than the other options. They're also much more effective as a counter-assaulting unit.

As for knowing what's good about it? No offence to anyone, and I know how arrogant it sounds...but - I don't need to play a unit to see how good it is/isn't. I've never used Nids, and haven't played against the new Dex yet, but I know Hive Guard and Zoes are kickass, while Hive Tyrants are vastly inferior to their relative power in the last Dex. Most Codexes only have 2 or possibly 3 builds that actually work against the other top builds. I haven't spent enough time with the BA Dex to say about them (and what I _have _said can be seen on my blog, I'm not repeating it all) but I think there will be no more than 3 builds of BA that are good enough to stand against, for example, IG.


----------



## timsmith

I never stated the were to be the only troops choice taken (assault squads). I totally agree that a mixed and Ballanced army is going to be the strongest. But they are damm good for their points and effective close combat troops. I personally would never eva give them jump packs. Thats my personal opinion tho. 

Yes you are right until some games are played and lists refined, its WAY to early to say. They still arnt as good as grey hunters but they can give them a run for their money. But using a couple as of assault squads as well as a tac squad seems pretty solid to me.

As previousally stated i believe this codex isnt over powered, not by a long way. As usual some of it is just flashy filler. Any 1 wanna throuw some lists around? 

Tim


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## Wax

Leviticus said:


> And no...DC dreads will never be worth it...not when you can take Librarian Dreads. No other dread is worthwhile in the book.


Except for the fact that they take up a completely different slot on the FOC, so they don't compete for anything except points.



Leviticus said:


> The only other good one is Furioso's with Blood Talons +Magna Grapple. (Speaking competitively...of course)


So wait, you're going to put an _vehicle_ grapple on a Dread with anti-_ infantry_ weapons? This may sound rude, but what are you smoking? "Yes, I'll grapple that Chimera over here and attack it with my S6 powerweapon." I'm pretty sure I'll only take a grapple on a Dread that also has DCCWs. To be fair, I'm not exactly a "LEET GT PLAYER" like you apparently are, so maybe there is some black magic trick in using (relatively) low strength attacks on a vehicle? Will you tell me about them? lol.


----------



## Crimson Shadow

So to revisit a previous point. Mephiston is no longer an IC? Can anyone elaborate on how that's going to work exactly?


----------



## Baltar

Crimson Shadow said:


> So to revisit a previous point. Mephiston is no longer an IC? Can anyone elaborate on how that's going to work exactly?


He may only ever be alone. Never put into a squad.


----------



## Katie Drake

Crimson Shadow said:


> So to revisit a previous point. Mephiston is no longer an IC? Can anyone elaborate on how that's going to work exactly?


He's like a Lone Wolf from Codex: Space Wolves, if that makes it any easier to understand.


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## Stella Cadente

TheKingElessar said:


> Well...Assault Squads are the single best. Whether or not the need others to help is irrelevant to that point - they are, in a vacuum, better than the other options.


so there better at shooting over ranges of 24" than tactical squads are?, better than holding objectives? (remembering this is a unit that moves so that it can assault), better than scouting even without the special rule?

rubbish I'm afraid, there the best at assaulting head on, and that is it, because that is there job, any other task they suck hard without friends to help them, for the first time ever I can say just like reality.

and thank god mephiston can't join anything.


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## Underground Heretic

Hearing that Mephiston is not an IC just might have made my weekend. His badassery would have been horrible to pick out of a squad like the death company, but if he can't join he's a lot less threatening. Still very dangerous, but less so when he will have to take plasma and railguns by himself.


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## Stella Cadente

Underground Heretic said:


> Hearing that Mephiston is not an IC just might have made my weekend. His badassery would have been horrible to pick out of a squad like the death company, but if he can't join he's a lot less threatening. Still very dangerous, but less so when he will have to take plasma and railguns by himself.


nevermind that, I'd be even more worried if sanquinor AND mephiston (2 models I know practically every BA play around here will be using at the same time, pts be damned) could join units, thankfully neither can, so there actually not as broken as they first seemed, still hard, but beatable now.


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## Lord Reevan

I enjoy the fact that he's not an IC now. makes him that little more complicated to use and with a model that powerful that's a very good thing....also it'll make people think twice before noobing up with a list where he's the majority of the points...


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## TheKingElessar

Stella Cadente said:


> so there better at shooting over ranges of 24" than tactical squads are?, better than holding objectives? (remembering this is a unit that moves so that it can assault), better than scouting even without the special rule?
> 
> rubbish I'm afraid, there the best at assaulting head on, and that is it, because that is there job, any other task they suck hard without friends to help them, for the first time ever I can say just like reality.


Oh Noes! They can't do what I need to do in 2/3 missions, and take objectives in no-man's land/enemy territory! Oh, wait, that's bollocks, they can. Can they get me KPs? Yup. Hmmm. Guess they're exactly what I said then, great IN A VACUUM. Tactical Squad + No Combat Tactics + more expensive Rhino = shit. Try playing without IA stuff, and when you're playing the same game as me then I'll accept your right to an opinion on the game I play.

Oh, and BA Scouts are pathetic.:good:

@Wax_Assassin:

Perhaps because that's a S8 weapon? They're generally good against light/medium vehicles...especially when the majority of said vehicles also have AV10 on the back, so if you Furiously Charge them with infinite attacks at S7...


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## Winterous

TheKingElessar said:


> infinite attacks


WHAT NINE THOUSAND?

How does he get infinite attacks?


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## TheKingElessar

Having 2 Blood Talons my friend. That means that when you hit you can somehow get another one, and they stack. I don't recall the EXACT details, but it's potentially limitless. Of course, 4 S7 A would probably be enough to rip most vehicles a new one.


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## Winterous

TheKingElessar said:


> Having 2 Blood Talons my friend. That means that when you hit you can somehow get another one, and they stack. I don't recall the EXACT details, but it's potentially limitless. Of course, 4 S7 A would probably be enough to rip most vehicles a new one.


Aah, so it works like Arhiman (spelling?) in 3rd edition.
He could theoretically fire infinite Lascannon equivalents in a single turn.


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## pathwinder14

What are the potential builds we expect to see?

Stormraven DS army?
9+ dreadnought army?
all Jump pack army?
Assault squad rhino army?


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## TheKingElessar

DC Dreads don't score - 9 Dread armies are fail. Certainly the third and fourth on your list though.


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## Winterous

TheKingElessar said:


> DC Dreads don't score - 9 Dread armies are fail. Certainly the third and fourth on your list though.


Who cares?
Chuck some scouts in there to take Objectives and have some fun with your NINE DREADNOUGHTS!

I mean hell, Orks can only get 8!

What are the 9 anyway?
3 Elites (Librarians), 3 Heavy Support (normal), DC Dreads (how many?), and what do Furiosos count as?


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## OIIIIIIO

You still have to field 30 DC to get up to the nine dreads ... 2 five man scouts are so going to be the last thing on anyones mind with that many dreads and DC running around like their hair is on fire and their ass is catchin:grin:


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## Leviticus

@King

No, the extra attacks aren't bassed of hits. They are based off WOUNDING. You can not wound a vehicle. Therefore oyu only have the standard attacks.

Also, you are very correct about assault marines behing troops. Stock standard in a rhino with both squads, the tacticals come out to be 35 pts more (nearly a whole rhino more). Spread that out over 3-4 squads (standard for 2k troops) and you save between 105-140 pts. So between corbulo almost up to an entire extra baal may be selected for the points you save. They are better cost efficient. Not to mention that Sang priests accent CC, which tcticals suck at. Even with those abilities tacticals aren't good. Sang priests are a must unit, and if you plan on having him sit with tacticals, you plan on having 9 tacticals, in which case you can't upgrade shit. Now with two assault marines, you can atleast get a melta gun! cheaper! It's almost a no-brainer.

They can't play the firebase role of the tacticals nearly as good, but with MM attack bikes, baal predas, and rifleman/librarian dreads running around...you need to cut as many corner on pts where possible and get the things that matter.


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## TheKingElessar

Orks can take 9 Kans and 2 Deff Dreads, for fewer points than BA can take 9. It's immaterial, honestly - you don't want to run 9 BA Dreads. Furiosos are Elites, fyi - they upgrade to Libby Dreads. DC Dreads are Troops - Winterous, you, of all people, should have read my blog post on BA by now. 

@Leviticus: Ah, thanks. I couldn't remember, but their basic attacks should still be plenty. Especially when you Grapple stuff into Melta range.


----------



## Winterous

TheKingElessar said:


> Orks can take 9 Kans and 2 Deff Dreads, for fewer points than BA can take 9. It's immaterial, honestly - you don't want to run 9 BA Dreads. Furiosos are Elites, fyi - they upgrade to Libby Dreads. DC Dreads are Troops - Winterous, you, of all people, should have read my blog post on BA by now.


I flicked through it, I just seemed to have missed that part.
I thought they like, required you to have a DC unit for every Dread you want to take, or something.

And aah yes, 9 Kans, not 6, I seem to have miscalculated 3X3 :S


----------



## Wax

TheKingElessar said:


> @Leviticus: Ah, thanks. I couldn't remember, but their basic attacks should still be plenty. Especially when you Grapple stuff into Melta range.


Except that the range on the grapple is... *GASP* _12"_. The exact same at the meltagun that already comes on the Dread for free and has AP1, vs. the grapples extra armor cost and AP2. If I want to fight infantry I'll take the talons, if I want to kill armor I'll take the magna grapple and keep the DCCW. You get the same amount of attacks, and instead of needing a 4 (3 if it's a DC dread) to glance on a vehicle (assuming AV10) it'll auto pen.

Bottom line, don't take grapples on your Talon Dreads.

EDIT: Also, since all your weapons are fired at the same time, I don't think you can grapple something into range of your other guns. Those weapons have already fired before the grapple makes your target move.


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## Winterous

Wax_Assassin said:


> EDIT: Also, since all your weapons are fired at the same time, I don't think you can grapple something into range of your other guns. Those weapons have already fired before the grapple makes your target move.


This is true, all attacks are resolved at the same time (you just work out blasts and such separately because doing them at the same time is physically impossible).
So yeah, Magna-Grapple (cool as weapon) and Melta gun do not work together.


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## Leviticus

I have said it once. I will say it again. Librarian Furioso dreads are definitely the way to go.


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## Wax

Leviticus said:


> I have said it once. I will say it again. Furioso dreads are definitely the way to go.


As opposed to what? You do realize that Furioso's are the only Dreads in the Elite slot, right? I can see myself taking two Furioso's (one as a libby, and another one with Talons) and a DC Dread in high point games. Possibly a lasDread too if I need some long range AT.

(Actually on second thought a lasPred is probably a better option now that it is fast.)


----------



## Stella Cadente

TheKingElessar said:


> Try playing without IA stuff, and when you're playing the same game as me then I'll accept your right to an opinion on the game I play.


what are you on about?, I never mentioned imperial armour at all, plus the use of imperial armour does not produce a completely different game, so my opinion is just as valid, if you don't like that fact then tough shit.


TheKingElessar said:


> Oh, and BA Scouts are pathetic.:good:


are you gonna give a reason or just stick with a stupid 1 liner that makes you look dumb, scouts have uses that assault squads and tactical squads cannot do, so whats so pathetic about that?, seems to be rather useful to me, but it all comes down to tunnel vision again, with the belief that assault squads can do anything that anyone else can, when quite obviously they can't, and saying there better in certain games types is a waste of time, your relying on that game type being played, what if it isn't since there supposed to be random, your screwed then, seems to be logical to have a force capable of handling all game types.


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## Leviticus

@Wax

I actually meant to say Librarian Furioso's.


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord

So how many types of dreadnoughts do the BA have? Seems a little over the top, dreads are meant to be rare aren't they?


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## Winterous

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> So how many types of dreadnoughts do the BA have? Seems a little over the top, dreads are meant to be rare aren't they?


So is Terminator amour, but Dark Angels and Space Wolves can field entire armies of them.
Hell, ELDAR are rare.


----------



## Leviticus

Well, the blood angels were a first founding. Having alot of dreadnoughts on hand (especially with all the heroic deeds they got going in heroic battles) doesn't seem too crazy.

But in a game where people are 40k years into the future, still using TRIGGERS on guns, and having bio-engineered men with multiple back up organs, the last thing to be worried about is how many dreadnoughts a chapter would have


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## Sethis

Winterous said:


> Hell, ELDAR are rare.


Heh. That made me laugh. :biggrin:


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## TheKingElessar

Here's a reason - read it for yourself. If you can't see why BA Scouts are inferior, then I'm wasting my time with you.


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## Stella Cadente

TheKingElessar said:


> Here's a reason - read it for yourself. If you can't see why BA Scouts are inferior, then I'm wasting my time with you.


so basically your saying your too lazy to actually give a valid reason, I do not see how they are inferior, for something to be inferior it means there must be something better that can do the same job as scouts, I don't see much else in the BA codex with the same rules as scouts, so there superior at what they do, in fact they are the best at what they do, they are the best at being scouts.

its like saying a terminator is better than a scout, better at what?, better at 1 on 1 combat yes, better at infiltrating fuck no, better at supporting a unit in close combat or adding firepower, again no thats a waste of there massive points cost, they don't support they get supported, but thats not there job, thats not what there supposed to do it is what scouts are supposed to do.

start giving reasons and stop giving pathetic little answers that do nothing more than to let people laugh at you.

why are they pathetic?
what are they pathetic in comparison to that can do the same job?
if you can't answer that with a valid point, then you prove my point.


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## Winterous

I actually agree with Stella here, what are you suggesting is wrong with them?
Without that, you're just plain wrong.


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## Leviticus

With the chance of gaining Furious Charge they are not very inferior....maybe inferior in troops choice? but at that point you might as well say every troop choice is inferior to Assault Marines in rhinos.


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## Bindi Baji

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> So how many types of dreadnoughts do the BA have?


depends on the day of the week, weekdays 4, weekends 42


----------



## Stella Cadente

Leviticus said:


> With the chance of gaining Furious Charge they are not very inferior....maybe inferior in troops choice? but at that point you might as well say every troop choice is inferior to Assault Marines in rhinos


but again that still not not really true, every troops choice is not inferior end of to an assault squad in any transport.

a tactical squad may be inferior at engaging in close combat and actually taking ground, but they are far superior at medium range combat and holding the objectives taken by the assault squad.

scout squads are a little inferior in assault and there medium ranged ability is only average, but there superior at actually reaching objectives first and holding them until the assault squad arrives and helping the assault squad in close combat capture the objective if the scouts are attacked and continuing with them or then helping the tactical squad hold the objective.

even in a kill point game where objectives are nothing more than kill the enemy holding and taking ground is important to get better protection and LOS against your enemy, supporting your squads to avoid there death or aid in the enemies death is still a job scouts handle nicely.

nothing out of the 3 main troops (not including death company) is superior or inferior to another, they all have there own roles and there own uses which each is better suited towards than another, each is superior and inferior in its own way, but together there are no weaknesses that have not been covered and there is nothing they cannot handle together.

but if players will insist on believing assault squads are the best troops and can act alone at every role there not suited to do, then they will soon learn they are wrong when there assault squad is shot to pieces because there was nothing to help thin the enemies shooting units and nothing to support them from a forward position if they take causalities.


----------



## Crimson Shadow

Having not read the new codex yet (hoping to get down to FLGS tomorrow), are scouts back to being troops for BA or are they still Elites as per the .pdf?


----------



## pathwinder14

So Wait, no one plans on running 2 Stormravens?

Here's my idea:
Stormraven1
10 DC
Chaplain Lemartes
Death Co Dread

Stormraven 2
Dante
5 Sanguinary guard
Death co dreadnought

DS assault squad or 2 if there are any points left over.


----------



## fett14622

Crimson Shadow said:


> Having not read the new codex yet (hoping to get down to FLGS tomorrow), are scouts back to being troops for BA or are they still Elites as per the .pdf?


Yes scouts are troops


----------



## Lord Reevan

the only way assault squads can be counted as one of the better troops is if you intend to forego objective taking and concentrate on taking out the enemy completely but even then they go up against howling banshees, scourges, berzerkers, CC chosen, daemonettes, bloodletters any dedicated assault unit they will be stopped. they will take a few with them but they will go down. it's those CC guys that you need to take out from a range with bolterfire of a tac squad or slow them down enough so the assault squad gets that much needed charge by using scouts against them. assault squads are just basic marines carrying one extra attack and they rely on the charge to get the extra stats. they themselves do not make an army...


----------



## Cyklown

Lord Reevan said:


> ...howling banshees...


What?
So, assuming the same attacks, odds to hit, etc.:
Assault marrines wound on a 3+
Banshee's wound on a 5+
2/3*1/2=1/3
1/3*1=1/3
The only shing banshees having going them is fleet and init.
Heck, a Sgt w/ powersword does largely the same damage as an exarch with executioner does unless I'm misremembering my vet sgt stats.

Banshees NEED doom support.


----------



## Wax

TheKingElessar said:


> Here's a reason - read it for yourself. If you can't see why BA Scouts are inferior, then I'm wasting my time with you.


If you can't see why you're coming off like an arrogant dick right now, then we're wasting our time with you.



Leviticus said:


> I have said it once. I will say it again. Librarian Furioso dreads are definitely the way to go.


Yeah, but if you look at the wording of the Librarian upgrade you can see that they can't take the Blood Talons that everyone is so hopped up on. A Libby Dread can be friggin awesome, but saying that they are the ONLY type of Dread to take, even in the Elite slot, is pretty silly. If I am facing Nids you can be damn sure that I will have a RegFurioso w/Talons if nothing else. I'd want to take a Libby too if I have points, a force weapon is great for MCs and the Hood is real nice too. But the Libby will get tarpitted real hard by any swarm. The Reg w/Talons will mince MCs, AND swarms (and can still do limited tank hunting with its Melta). Bottom line, I don't think absolutes are a good answer in most cases.

EDIT:


Cyklown said:


> What?
> 
> Banshees NEED doom support.


Not against assault marines they don't.

Squad of 10 Marines with a PF Sgt. Squad of 10 Banshees with an exarch w/Ex.
Banshees go first (we'll assume the Marines pass their Warcry test). Banshees get their counter-attack bonus. 27 attacks, 14 hits, 5 wounds, 5 dead Marines. Exarch gets 4 attacks, 4 hit, 2 wound, 7 dead Marines total.

2 Marines and the Sgt. are left to strike back. 6 regular attacks, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 dead Banshee. 3 PF attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds, 3 dead Banshees total.

Marines take their LD test at 9 minus 4 (5), fail with a 7 and are subject to "No Retreat" when the banshees catch them with a +1 on the Init test. 1 more Marine is killed from the 4 wounds. The two other Marines are wiped next turn.

DIDN'T REALLY NEED DOOM THERE HUH?


----------



## Lord Reevan

Cyklown said:


> What?
> So, assuming the same attacks, odds to hit, etc.:
> Assault marrines wound on a 3+
> Banshee's wound on a 5+
> 2/3*1/2=1/3
> 1/3*1=1/3
> The only shing banshees having going them is fleet and init.
> Heck, a Sgt w/ powersword does largely the same damage as an exarch with executioner does unless I'm misremembering my vet sgt stats.
> 
> Banshees NEED doom support.


one unit and with their init and fleet they'll be hitting first so there'd be less attacks coming back at them. but it just proves that assault specific units need support


----------



## Stephen_Newman

Whadda ya mean banshees need doom support. The exarch with ex kills marines she hits on 3's unless marines are not T5.

Any way assault marines will certainly struggle against a chraging harlie unit laced with kisses and a power weapon troupe leader!!

Tons of rending attacks on strength 4 and initiative 7=mincemeat of most assault units.


----------



## Cyklown

Well, there's the joy of furious charge. And giving your sergeant a pw, etc, but all it takes is for the marines to camp in cover shooting at the banshee's if they don't run in and suddenly the marines are striking first.

And then you see 21 attacks, 10 hit, 20/3 wound, 10/3 get through. With a sergeant with PW that's actually a tad over 4. 6 Banshees, 15 attacks w 3 execs, 15/2 hits w/ 2 exec, 5/2 kills, 4/3 exec kills. Fairly reasonable, the banshee's will likely do enough damage in the next turn to eventually win, although they'll be down to half strength.

You just spent half of an elites choice taking out a troops choice, and that's if your "stop the serpent ~14" from the enemy" plan works. You'll find yourself thinking about what you'd be doing with an extra squad for Fire Dragons instead.

Additionally, as a unit to throw at banshees after they have already charged someone else Assault 'rines take the cake. The banshee's aren't fighting back, the assault 'rines kill banshee's as fast as banshee's wipe out the other squad and they're a scoring unit once the fight is over. As a "backing up the objective" unit that's great.

Tacs would have, what, sat their watching combat and hoping the combat ended on the Eldar turn so they could rapid-fire?


----------



## Stella Cadente

yeah I'm gonna agree they REALLY don't need doom, that initiative and power weapons make all the difference, the str isn't really making any negative effect because of those 2 factors, and if I remember rightly you only get furious charge if you succumb to black rage, which you might fail the roll for.

but thats why you have the tactical squad supporting them, to shoot the banshess and thin there numbers (heck 10 none rapid firing boltguns should at least kill 2 or 3 of them before combat, thats gonna help a tiny bit), and the scouts to add bodies to the assault or more shooting or both (10 scouts with shotguns could kill 2 or 3 more and then charge afterwards with the assault squad), and then the assault squad bolt pistols could kill1 or 2 more, there might not even be a unit left if your lucky


----------



## Wax

Cyklown said:


> Well, there's the joy of furious charge. And giving your sergeant a pw, etc, but all it takes is for the marines to camp in cover shooting at the banshee's if they don't run in and suddenly the marines are striking first.


Except the Marines will never strike first. The Banshees will always strike first. Furious charge won't really matter, if anything it will net you one extra dead Banshee after the Marine squad has already been reduced to 3 models. And hell, if the Marines didn't get their extra attacks from charging the results would be even more one sided, the Banshees would probably only lose 2 instead of 3.

In case you didn't hear the first time: Banshees will strike first, furious charge or not. Head up in CC a Howling Banshee squad will wipe the floor with assault Marines. No Doom needed.


----------



## TheKingElessar

I'm not entirely sure why I keep coming back to this thread, but here:

a) Even though Banshees would indeed beat a squad of Assault Marines in CC quite handily, they cost a hell of a lot more, and are taking up a Fire Dragon...sorry, Elites, slot.

b) I never said that Assault Squads would win games alone, or that they don't need the support of other units - including Troops. I said they are the best at what they are there to do, and the best Troops option overall. That includes factors such as value for points, and comparison to their other SM counterparts. If you genuinely cannot see why BA Scouts are worse at being Scouts than the SM ones, or the Wolves, then I don't know what to say. Perhaps it helps you if you look on the Blogosphere - Goatboy and Jawaballs both posted BA lists within the last 48 hours, and Assault Squads are the mainstay of both...while I don't think either is the best player in the world, and I certainly disagree on many points with them both, they can tell a good unit when they see it. Perhaps you would be well served by chilling the fuck out and rereading my exact words.

c) It's easy to say someone comes across as arrogant...but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I'd rather be arrogant and right (or wrong) than not have an opinion of my own. While I'm always happy to make a new friend, that's not the purpose of my posting here, and if you're so diametrically opposed to me in viewpoint it's highly unlikely we could make friends over teh intarwebz anyway...my point being, your opinion of me doesn't matter a bit. Sure, it's information, and therefore has some value - but I'd far rather you come up with an argument for them being GOOD. If you can prove me wrong, I'll say so. Hell, if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy, I'll dedicate a blog post to how you're right on something I wasn't, you can print it out, frame it, and put it on your wall.

d) IA rules aren't playtested by GW in relation to creating Codexes (in fact, they're 'playtested' by FW, which is completely different) and so any game involving IA rules, as you are so fond of Stella, is radically different from the games I play, which have very rarely used FW rules. Through choice. Even though you didn't mention it here, it will colour your opinion, just like mine is coloured the reverse - only thing is, most Tournaments of which I am aware don't permit FW rules, and my advice/view is primarily for people interested in playing competitive 40k.

e) Please note the generalised manner of the majority of my post. Any attempts to misappropriate my words and construe things as personal attacks will be met with persistent, perhaps even incessant, sarcasm and derision.

Have a nice day fellow Heretics. 

Exit Thread Left...


----------



## Winterous

Cyklown said:


> Well, there's the joy of furious charge. And giving your sergeant a pw, etc, but all it takes is for the marines to camp in cover shooting at the banshee's if they don't run in and suddenly the marines are striking first.


Mask always beats cover, Banshees will strike first no matter what.


----------



## pathwinder14

Lord Reevan said:


> the only way assault squads can be counted as one of the better troops is if you intend to forego objective taking and concentrate on taking out the enemy completely but even then they go up against howling banshees, scourges, berzerkers, CC chosen, daemonettes, bloodletters any dedicated assault unit they will be stopped. they will take a few with them but they will go down. it's those CC guys that you need to take out from a range with bolterfire of a tac squad or slow them down enough so the assault squad gets that much needed charge by using scouts against them. assault squads are just basic marines carrying one extra attack and they rely on the charge to get the extra stats. they themselves do not make an army...


Agreed. Add to that Genestealers, large ork mobs, and Harlequins. Assault squads are really good at getting to objectives, but any uber close combat squad will chew them up. Assault squads need other units to cover them.

Alternatively just leave enough points in your army for 2 assault squads and place them in reserves. Use the rest of your army to knock your opponent around and use the assault squads as a clean up crew/late game objective grabbers.


----------



## Horacus

pathwinder14 said:


> Agreed. Add to that Genestealers, large ork mobs, and Harlequins. Assault squads are really good at getting to objectives, but any uber close combat squad will chew them up. Assault squads need other units to cover them.
> 
> Alternatively just leave enough points in your army for 2 assault squads and place them in reserves. Use the rest of your army to knock your opponent around and use the assault squads as a clean up crew/late game objective grabbers.


That's exactly what you have to do, even the sucky Raptors do good jobs when used o do that.


----------



## Wax

TheKingElessar said:


> I'm not entirely sure why I keep coming back to this thread
> 
> *Then stop coming back.*
> 
> a) Even though Banshees would indeed beat a squad of Assault Marines in CC quite handily, they cost a hell of a lot more, and are taking up a Fire Dragon...sorry, Elites, slot.
> 
> *Are Firedragons the only good Eldar elite? I've only played them twice (in 5th ed.) and one time the Banshees kept my infantry out of a fairly sizable corner of the map. I really didn't want to tangle with them.*
> 
> b) If you genuinely cannot see why BA Scouts are worse at being Scouts than the SM ones, or the Wolves, then I don't know what to say.
> 
> *You are talking about the new BA, not the PDF? How about explaining your view, you know, with words and actual arguments instead of saying, "Because I said so." Come on man, you are implying that you know what's what when it comes to theory crafting. Use your big boy words and tell us why. But don't make them too long, apparently I'm a retard because BA scouts ARE EXACTLY THE SAME POINT FOR POINT AS C:SM ONES SO I DON'T SEE HOW THEY CAN BE WORSE. If I want a cheap unit to sit back on my at-home obj and be able to get a 2+ cover save, why wouldn't I take them? *
> 
> c) It's easy to say someone comes across as arrogant...but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
> *It generally is. Unless you are the MJ o' 40k you should get a little humility. Even then it's a good idea to keep your ego in your pants.*
> 
> e) Please note the generalised manner of the majority of my post. Any attempts to misappropriate my words and construe things as personal attacks will be met with persistent, perhaps even incessant, sarcasm and derision.
> 
> *That's fine, I don't think you're attacking anyone, I just think you're being a pretentious dick. A word of advice if you want to be taken seriously: give reasons. I didn't respond to your statement about FW because you made a good argument for why IA rules don't jive with your strats. Make the same argument for the other things you say and you'll come across much better.*
> 
> Have a nice day fellow Heretics.
> 
> Exit Thread Left...
> 
> *I'm calling it now. You'll be back.*


Apparently I have to type stuff down here too.


----------



## Winterous

Horacus said:


> That's exactly what you have to do, even the sucky Raptors do good jobs when used o do that.


I really don't understand what's wrong with Raptors at all.
They cost the same as Assault Marines.
They have better options than Assault Marines, unless you really want to take Lightning Claws, or value ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, or Combat Squads.
And you can take a unit of 5-20.

I mean, in a unit of 5 you can take TWO special weapons, Plasma pistol/gun, Meltagun for the same cost as an ASM Flamer, or a Flamer for half that.
And in addition to their flat out better weapon options, you can take an Icon!
Khorne, for the same cost as 1.5 more Raptors, every model gets an extra attack.
Slaanesh, for the same cost as 1 more Raptor, every model attacks before MEQ, meaning you take fewer casualties.
Nurgle... Not such a good idea, too expensive.
Tzeench, also not that useful.

Raptors are, in almost EVERY aspect, better than ASM.


----------



## WarlordKaptainGrishnak

Winterous said:


> I really don't understand what's wrong with Raptors at all.
> They cost the same as Assault Marines.
> They have better options than Assault Marines, unless you really want to take Lightning Claws, or value ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, or Combat Squads.
> And you can take a unit of 5-20.
> 
> I mean, in a unit of 5 you can take TWO special weapons, Plasma pistol/gun, Meltagun for the same cost as an ASM Flamer, or a Flamer for half that.
> And in addition to their flat out better weapon options, you can take an Icon!
> Khorne, for the same cost as 1.5 more Raptors, every model gets an extra attack.
> Slaanesh, for the same cost as 1 more Raptor, every model attacks before MEQ, meaning you take fewer casualties.
> Nurgle... Not such a good idea, too expensive.
> Tzeench, also not that useful.
> 
> Raptors are, in almost EVERY aspect, better than ASM.


WOOOT!!! ditto, concur, exactly!


----------



## Cyklown

Wax_Assassin said:


> Except the Marines will never strike first. The Banshees will always strike first.





Winterous said:


> Mask always beats cover, Banshees will strike first no matter what.


Go reread Banshee Masks.


Eldar Codex p32 said:


> "..has I10 and negates any inititive bonus confered by foo"





BRB p36 said:


> "All their models have initiave 1 when attacking, regardless of other initiative modifiers."


So, the Banshees have a rules that says they strike at I1 and one saying I10. The codex would win, except for the phrase regardless of other iniative modifiers".

Negating the iniative bonuses is irrelevant, because there's no longer any bonus. A different unit gets a penality.

It's asinine, yes. But they released a faq for 5th and left it out. That's RAW.



As a side note, the FAQ also allows the use of Star Engines on turns you rammed


http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1610177_Eldar_FAQ_2008-05_Edition.pdf p2) said:


> As long as the vehicle is allowed to move this turn, and does not shoot/disembark troops.


----------



## Wax

Cyklown said:


> Go reread Banshee Masks.
> So, the Banshees have a rules that says they strike at I1 and one saying I10. The codex would win, except for the phrase regardless of other iniative modifiers".
> Negating the iniative bonuses is irrelevant, because there's no longer any bonus. A different unit gets a penality.
> It's asinine, yes. But they released a faq for 5th and left it out. That's RAW.


So I'm guessing that you're the kind of person who says GK force weapons ignore EW? This is when RAW gets retarded, when simple a simple turn of phrase or something that changed from a previous edition horribly twists the true meaning of a rule. Then a bunch of wanna be English majors/rule lawyers go, "IT DOESN'T WORK ANYMORE BECAUSE THIS DOESN'T SAY IT THE EXACT RIGHT WAY!" The Banshee mask rule is meant to make the Banshees strike at I10 (first) in the first round of combat, regardless of grenades or cover. That's all that should be taken from that rule. Saying that, because the mechanic for how cover affects assaults changed, they no longer get one of the benefits specifically written into their entry is pretty silly.

I guess this is where the "competitive play" aspect comes in. I'm assuming from what you said that you play in tourneys where this dumbass RAW shit is followed to the letter because of incessant need to produce any advantage possible and lawyer about everything you don't like. If that is the case all I gotta say is, "Sucks for you." Now let's forget how dumb some people get over competitive stuff and discuss rules like we know they are mean to be used.


----------



## Winterous

Wax_Assassin said:


> So I'm guessing that you're the kind of person who says GK force weapons ignore EW? This is when RAW gets retarded, when simple a simple turn of phrase or something that changed from a previous edition horribly twists the true meaning of a rule. Then a bunch of wanna be English majors/rule lawyers go, "IT DOESN'T WORK ANYMORE BECAUSE THIS DOESN'T SAY IT THE EXACT RIGHT WAY!" The Banshee mask rule is meant to make the Banshees strike at I10 (first) in the first round of combat, regardless of grenades or cover. That's all that should be taken from that rule. Saying that, because the mechanic for how cover affects assaults changed, they no longer get one of the benefits specifically written into their entry is pretty silly.
> 
> I guess this is where the "competitive play" aspect comes in. I'm assuming from what you said that you play in tourneys where this dumbass RAW shit is followed to the letter because of incessant need to produce any advantage possible and lawyer about everything you don't like. If that is the case all I gotta say is, "Sucks for you." Now let's forget how dumb some people get over competitive stuff and discuss rules like we know they are mean to be used.


I don't think that's really relevant.
I mean, Dark Angels get superior Smoke Grenade Launchers, because their codex is old.
Grey Knights get EW ignoring Force weapons, because their codex is old.

However, the Banshee mask ignoring cover IS RAW.
Without a clear definition as to what a 'bonus' is, then your opponent being reduced to I1 _is_ a bonus.
Only relevant definition of bonus from Wiktionary: Something extra that is good.
Is it extra? Yes, it is an extra in addition to the normal CC rules.
Is it good? Yes, it is good, for your opponent.

Done, there is literally NO way you can dispute that, to do so is to change the definition of the word, and that's just stupid.


----------



## Wax

Winterous said:


> Grey Knights get EW ignoring Force weapons, because their codex is old.


Not where I play they don't.



Winterous said:


> However, the Banshee mask ignoring cover IS RAW.
> Without a clear definition as to what a 'bonus' is, then your opponent being reduced to I1 _is_ a bonus.
> Only relevant definition of bonus from Wiktionary: Something extra that is good.
> Is it extra? Yes, it is an extra in addition to the normal CC rules.
> Is it good? Yes, it is good, for your opponent.
> Done, there is literally NO way you can dispute that, to do so is to change the definition of the word, and that's just stupid.


Just so I'm clear, we agree about the mask, just making different points for it?


----------



## Stella Cadente

Winterous said:


> I really don't understand what's wrong with Raptors at all.


I do, the players are the problem with raptors, again its down to tunnel vision, if its not a lash prince and its not an obliterator then they get ignored just like everything else and then labelbed as overpriced underpowered junk.

although we with a brain all know thats a load of BS, because we either use or see them used to good effect.


Wax_Assassin said:


> Not where I play they don't.


technically that is a house rule then, its not really RAW, its just how it is, they get a small advantage because of the age of the codex, there is nothing to replace there force weapon entry, as the codex always trumps the rulebook, until they get an update theres are better, not because of any evil RAW, but just because thats how it is for the time being.

plus who would want to take another advantage away from grey knights?, there already the biggest joke in 40k.


----------



## World Eater XII

Not the biggest joke! i thought possessed held that spot?


----------



## Stella Cadente

World Eater XII said:


> Not the biggest joke! i thought possessed held that spot?


after seeing possessed units rip through grey knights without breaking a sweat I'm afraid not, plus possessed are actually kinda good so they can't hold the title of biggest joke.


----------



## Winterous

Stella Cadente said:


> after seeing possessed units rip through grey knights without breaking a sweat I'm afraid not, plus possessed are actually kinda good so they can't hold the title of biggest joke.


How are they actually kinda good?
I really wanted to justify them, but the best I could come up with is put them in a Rhino, if they get Scouts then they can actually put it to decent use.

I mean, you're paying far too much for a unit which is amazing, 1/6 of the time.
I'd much rather use Fabulous Bile to make my CSM into effectively Possessed, which are cheaper and can shoot.

If they had a third attack, they would definitely be worth it, but right now they're just pretty.


----------



## World Eater XII

agreed, the 3rd attack would make them justifiable.

I do see stellas point though!


----------



## Baltar

The new Baal pred has the outflanking ability, so it is possible to deploy it on your oponents table edge.

Was at a local store yesterday and they had played a match where this had happened against an eldar player, and during turn 1 the elda player was, basically, being bent right over the table. It was a little bit nasty.

It went a little something like this:

Some rolling of dice

Baal pred appears near some dire avengers

GOT FLAMES?

No more dire avengers


----------



## Stella Cadente

Winterous said:


> How are they actually kinda good?
> I really wanted to justify them, but the best I could come up with is put them in a Rhino, if they get Scouts then they can actually put it to decent use.
> 
> I mean, you're paying far too much for a unit which is amazing, 1/6 of the time.
> I'd much rather use Fabulous Bile to make my CSM into effectively Possessed, which are cheaper and can shoot.
> 
> If they had a third attack, they would definitely be worth it, but right now they're just pretty.


if you worry too much about justifying your decisions you'll end up finding the game stale and boring, most of the bad press that comes with possessed are from people who never used them even once, they just read them and jump on the hatred bandwagon with everyone else without thinking of ways to actually use them.

when you just look at the basic stats alone there not that bad, a very good str, an invul save and a good attack rating (people who moan they only have 2 attacks confuse me, terminators only have 2 attacks, assault squads only have 2 attacks, why are they not despised?) yeah sure they might cost a few points more than what there worth but is that really such a big deal in the end?, of course not, your still gonna be able to afford plenty of other thngs from the codex to use.

and then when we look at there abilities whats really so bad about them?, scouts might only be useful in a transport but again is that such a bad thing?, you'd give them a transport anyway really, even without scout, and as long as you park them in good cover then whats to worry about, surely getting a combat unit closer to the enemy is a good thing, just give them some biker or raptor support and there sitting happy.

Furious charge, well thats never a bad thing to have really is it

Fleet of foot is guaranteeing that even if you have a blown up transport you can still move quicker than 6" and still charge, isn't that what you want them to do in the first place?

rending is obviously gonna be useful

feel no pain, a 3+ save and an invul screams hard to kill unit to me.

and power weapons with a str of 5 means you have a whole unit armed with frost weapons, thats nothing to sniff at.

in all I see no problem with them, I'll agree they could be a tiny bit cheaper, but I think they can still justify there points cost in a game as long as there used well, which again is another problem, todays generation don't want units that will perform well if they use them properly, they all want units that perform well while avoiding using there brains.

and if you want that 3rd attack, well thats easy to get, charge.


----------



## Winterous

Stella Cadente said:


> -snipped because long-


Look, you're right I guess, but what do they do that Berzerkers can't do almost as good or better?
For a start, Berzerkers come with MoK base, which is why they should have a third attack (because they're a similar unit)
They can't score, they're unreliable (so you can't deploy them somewhere KNOWING what you can do with them), they can't shoot, and they don't even have FRAG GRENADES, all they can do is be pretty powerful in melee, or horrifically powerful in melee if you're lucky.

If Berzerkers didn't exist, their 5 point cheaper cousins, they'd be alright, but as it stands they're a unit which you don't KNOW is going to be effective, which is almost matched in effectiveness by their cheaper cousins, and have little to offer that they don't.

The most I'd ever be comfortable taking is 5 in a Rhino, but then taking a mark (essential for their performance) becomes inefficient, so in order to make good use of the mark, I'd have to take 8-10, which is getting absurd.

And when you look at the page before them, you find they're 4 points cheaper than Terminators, which boast a better armour save, the same Invulnerable, having Power weapons standard, and can shoot, and have anti-vehicle weapons.
2+ armour = better than 3+ and FNP, no matter how you look at it, because it's the same chance of passing, and won't be affected by AP3; AP2 negates FNP anyway so they're equal there. Unless of course you're using that teleport thing from Planetstrike.
Shooting speaks for itself of course, so does anti-vehicle.
And making up for their lower strength, and therefore lower effectiveness against lightly armoured infantry (against 5+ saves I think they're better off anyway, not sure, but definitely against 4+ or better) is the option to take a Heavy Flamer, which is like slapping them with a whole bunch of Possessed, who ignore 4+ saves, unlike Possessed; and if you take a full unit, you can have another one!

A few of the only things (ie: all I can think of right now) that Terminators don't hold over Possessed are:
Sweeping Advances.
Taking a Rhino.
Random abilities (one of which is lesser, three of which are a very small gain, and two are actually good abilities (fleet and FC), so a 1/3 chance of having something considerably better than the Terminators have).
Fearless (which is potentially a bad thing).


----------



## Sethis

I love the way this thread swings from BA rumours to BA facts to BA Speculation to BA bitching and then... the finer points of the Chaos Codex. Wait, what? :laugh:

C'mon guys, there's millions of good places to debate Possessed, this isn't one. Let the Red Spaz Mahreens have their safe haven while it lasts, they'll be forgotten as soon as Templars get a codex anyway!


----------



## Cyklown

And then Khorne players will start using those rules instead!


----------



## fett14622

Cyklown said:


> And then Khorne players will start using those rules instead!


It is cool with me. They are red marines after all. :good:


----------



## fett14622

In the new dex can the BA assault squads take meltaguns. Or is it that new melta pistol?


----------



## Wax

fett14622 said:


> In the new dex can the BA assault squads take meltaguns. Or is it that new melta pistol?


They can take both.


----------



## Katie Drake

fett14622 said:


> In the new dex can the BA assault squads take meltaguns. Or is it that new melta pistol?


They can indeed take up to two meltaguns and the Sergeant is able to take an infernus pistol as well.


----------



## OIIIIIIO

Fuck me ... I just gave all of my melta guns to a buddy of mine ... are the DC sprues gonna have any melta guns on them? I am going to buy 6 of those and one of the Sangierowuro <--- however the fuck you spell it Guard guys.


----------



## fett14622

Talthewicked said:


> Fuck me ... I just gave all of my melta guns to a buddy of mine ... are the DC sprues gonna have any melta guns on them? I am going to buy 6 of those and one of the Sangierowuro <--- however the fuck you spell it Guard guys.



I just looked at the sprues. they only inclued 2 infernus pistol.


----------



## Cyklown

fett14622 said:


> It is cool with me. They are red marines after all. :good:


Nah, I mean when BT get their new dex Khorne will grab onto that.

Nightlords will probably stick with BA, though. Jetpacks and all that.


----------



## Warlock in Training

World Eater XII said:


> I do see stellas point though!


The seventh seal is broken, the sky falls and the seas boil. :laugh:

I agree to. Possessed can be used to good affect. I think all their randomness is useful except Scout. So you have a 1/6 chance of getting really shitty results. True Beserkers are cheaper and just as effective, but I rather run really cheap melta CSMs instead. 

Raptors are also useful, they can DS with Meltas and fuck some transports up and charge the occupants. Preatty useful to me. 

Now that the CSM broke dick Dex ranting is over all I got to say is HURRAY Alpha Legion (SM Dex), for Khorn (SW Dex), and now Night Lords (BA Dex)! Thats 3 Legions down, 6 more to go .


----------



## KingOfCheese

Just out of curiosity...

What psychic defense does the new BA have?


----------



## Winterous

KingOfCheese said:


> Just out of curiosity...
> 
> What psychic defense does the new BA have?


Psychic Hoods on both their Librarians and Librarian Dreadnoughts.


----------



## KingOfCheese

Winterous said:


> Psychic Hoods on both their Librarians and Librarian Dreadnoughts.


So the uber librarian dreads that everyone will be spamming have psychic hoods too???
Great.


----------



## Winterous

KingOfCheese said:


> So the uber librarian dreads that everyone will be spamming have psychic hoods too???
> Great.


Well they are pretty fucking expensive.


----------



## Wax

KingOfCheese said:


> So the uber librarian dreads that everyone will be spamming have psychic hoods too???
> Great.


Well, in a "cheese", or decent list for that matter, you would only face two libby dreads (the other Eliot slot being taken by the Sang Priests). That and the fact that they both cost around 200 points after upgrades.


----------



## Sanguinary Dan

And think of it this way, it's a lot easier to kill a Dreadnought (even one with an AV13 nose) than it is to get that Librarian skulking in the middle of a squad of Marines. And maybe you'll get lucky and he'll Glance himself with Perils of the Warp.:wacko:

Besides, there is still such a massive amount of competition for Elites slots in the BA list that I really doubt you'll see many armies with multiple Libbie Dreads.


----------



## Lord Reevan

yeah even though the librarian dreadnoughts are really good there are a bucketload of really good choices in the elites section so you might not see that many. I'd expect ther to be some very varied lists coming out soon though. Like all Jump packs, all transports, or as many non transport vehicles as possible all coming into the mix....


----------



## Baltar

I am liking the chaplain as an elite choice. The sang priests seem to be a given.

Taking dante means that you don't have to take sang guard as elites, which is nice.


----------



## Lord Reevan

isn't the chaplain an upgrade to the dc only now or was I mistaken there??


----------



## fett14622

Lord Reevan said:


> isn't the chaplain an upgrade to the dc only now or was I mistaken there??


I think it's just Lemartes that is DC upgrade


----------



## timsmith

There is a resecluch (spelt wrong) in the HQ think 3W 3A chappy and chaplins are now elites


----------



## Baltar

reclusiarch


----------



## Wolf_Lord_Skoll

Aren't reclusiarchs just standard ranked chaplains though?


----------



## fett14622

Wolf_Lord_Skoll said:


> Aren't reclusiarchs just standard ranked chaplains though?


Yes, yes they are:biggrin:


----------



## pathwinder14

So whose going to run the 6 predator army?
3 Baal preds
3 AC/LC preds
1 cheap HQ
3 5 man squads of marines in Razorbacks

It's a bit beardy to say the least and is very vulnerable to drop pod/DS armies.


----------



## Stella Cadente

although the 6 pred army could be fun as a sort of marine armoured company, I believe it will suffer from the same problem guard armoured companies have, that being underpowered but fun to use.

heck if guard tanks struggle in huge numbers with ordnance I don't see marine tanks fairing allot better without.


----------



## Winterous

Stella Cadente said:


> although the 6 pred army could be fun as a sort of marine armoured company, I believe it will suffer from the same problem guard armoured companies have, that being underpowered but fun to use.
> 
> heck if guard tanks struggle in huge numbers with ordnance I don't see marine tanks fairing allot better without.


What's wrong with IG armoured companies?
I mean yes, with enough of the right weapons they die easily, but they have no shortage of firepower if you build them right.


----------



## Stella Cadente

Winterous said:


> What's wrong with IG armoured companies?
> I mean yes, with enough of the right weapons they die easily, but they have no shortage of firepower if you build them right.


they either win big or lose big, there is no middle ground, and its hard to make them truly balanced, and honestly they really do have a huge shortage of firepower, if your playing on an open board against a cat than sure they do fine, but if you playing against a human on a board with terrain 50% of that firepower can't see and another 50% will probably scatter.

holding objectives is hard since your troops are tanks, and your infantry only come in tens, not hundreds, and each tank lost is a huge drop in firepower that can see, and assault is deadly for them since the lack of infantry can't counter charge.

you only play armoured companies for fun, and never expect the best.


----------



## Winterous

Stella Cadente said:


> they either win big or lose big, there is no middle ground, and its hard to make them truly balanced, and honestly they really do have a huge shortage of firepower, if your playing on an open board against a cat than sure they do fine, but if you playing against a human on a board with terrain 50% of that firepower can't see and another 50% will probably scatter.
> 
> holding objectives is hard since your troops are tanks, and your infantry only come in tens, not hundreds, and each tank lost is a huge drop in firepower that can see, and assault is deadly for them since the lack of infantry can't counter charge.
> 
> you only play armoured companies for fun, and never expect the best.


True enough I suppose.
I'd never take a 'full' armoured company, but tank heavy with some infantry shields could work well.


----------



## Stella Cadente

Winterous said:


> True enough I suppose.
> I'd never take a 'full' armoured company, but tank heavy with some infantry shields could work well.


but in those cases your better off using the codex and going mechanized instead of the armoured company list.


----------



## Winterous

Stella Cadente said:


> but in those cases your better off using the codex and going mechanized instead of the armoured company list.


Oh, I thought you were talking about using the codex.


----------



## Stella Cadente

Winterous said:


> Oh, I thought you were talking about using the codex.


oh good god no, I'd have to use squadrons of russ tanks, and thats something I'd rather not do...ever.
*shivers from the disgusting thought*


----------



## bitsandkits

I have noticed that GW have addressed and fixed the predator sponson issue on the Baal predator, its now using a similar (but smaller) set up to the Landraider sponson.


----------



## Winterous

What's wrong with the current sponsons?


----------



## ChaosRedCorsairLord

They break really easily and look pretty lame.


----------



## Katie Drake

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> They break really easily and look pretty lame.


F*ck me, he isn't joking.

I own three Predators and the only reason the sponsons haven't broken off all three of them is because I didn't put any on the last one... it's freaking brutal, it's like they were designed to break.


----------



## Winterous

I like the look of the current ones, but that is no good 
So let me sort out how the new ones work.

They have a top and bottom support, with a rod going up the middle.
And the guns latch on and rotate on a sort of axle?


----------



## Sanguinary Dan

The new sponson is a modified version of the Land Raider mount. I gave up on the dangling sponsons a while ago and switched to the IG sponsons. The new version I mount upside down to give it some sloped armor.

I'm planning on bitz buying some of the new ones in a couple of months though.


----------



## Galahad

Fast tanks is pretty killer. I wonder if it'll make las/plas razorbacks useful. I think I'd still rather have a TLLC or TLHB model moving 12" and firing than a Las/Plas moving 6" and firing both


----------



## Winterous

Considering they've said 'and there are going to be more tank releases', I assume they're going to redo the normal Predator with the sponsons upgrade.


----------



## MaidenManiac

Winterous said:


> Considering they've said 'and there are going to be more tank releases', I assume they're going to redo the normal Predator with the sponsons upgrade.


Im almost sure that this was comfirmed a while ago somewhere here on the site, complete with full DE-player whining and all....


----------



## Winterous

MaidenManiac said:


> Im almost sure that this was comfirmed a while ago somewhere here on the site, complete with full DE-player whining and all....


http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=9200022a
Last sentence of paragraph 3.


----------



## Ferik

Yep, I deffinantly like the idea of Fast vehicles in the army especially with preditors and vindicators it will make them far more viable and scary then they are now, though they are far more expensive points wise it is still worth it IMO.


----------



## Blue Liger

It also fits with the chapters of SM customising thier vehicles for personal use and not just using the standard issue tank, I could also see fast rhino as such working well with BT's


----------



## World Eater XII

Fits well with my world eaters aswell!


----------



## Crimson Shadow

My question revolves around the magna-grapple. Is it some sort of hull mounted launcher similar to the HK for the ironclad, or does it replace an arm? I would love to keep two blood claws on my furioso and have the magna grapple.


----------



## Baltar

It might actually be a beam weapon. "magna" grapple makes it sounds like it could be some kind of giant mognetic beam sort of thing.


----------



## Katie Drake

It's a magnetic disc with a super thick adamantine chain attached to it. The Dreadnought fires the disc at its target and if the disc manages to stick, the Dreadnought can attempt to "reel in" the enemy vehicle. It's a weapon that goes on one of the Dreadnought's arms, but it doesn't replace any other weapon options.


----------



## Baltar

Considering that it wouldn't work on anything heavier than the dread (the dread would get pulled towards whatever it had grappled), I find it an amusing weapon.


----------



## Katie Drake

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Considering that it wouldn't work on anything heavier than the dread (the dread would get pulled towards whatever it had grappled), I find it an amusing weapon.


I'll admit to not being up to snuff on my physics, but if the Dreadnought dug in its heels to brace itself and leaned backward, it could drag something significantly heavier than itself, no? It's the same as a person tugging on a rope, isn't it?


----------



## gen.ahab

Indeed, with proper leverage and with sufficient force it could pull something considerable heavier than itself..


----------



## Lord Reevan

this is 40k physics never come into the picture . so it's an added extra weapon it doesn't replace the DCCW mounted weapons or anything??


----------



## Crimson Shadow

If it couldn't then things like cranes wouldn't work.


----------



## Katie Drake

Lord Reevan said:


> this is 40k physics never come into the picture . so it's an added extra weapon it doesn't replace the DCCW mounted weapons or anything??


It doesn't replace anything.


----------



## Lord Reevan

class gonna make one up and magnetise it to the dreads then... sounds pretty cool....


----------



## Winterous

Katie Drake said:


> It doesn't replace anything.


Well that's kinda dumb, I figured it would be an arm replacement.

Let's pull some Monoliths!


----------



## Cyklown

You can't grapple monoliths. 8+6(ie the highest dice roll possible on a d6)>! 14.


----------



## darkreever

Uh Cyklown, last I checked 8+6=14, and the grapple rule states that any roll equal to or greater than the armour value is good.

Actually your post doesn't seem to make to much sense, what were you using the > to represent?


----------



## Baltar

Guys.

I design parts for spacecraft for a living. Question me on my 40k rules all you like - let us not go there on the physics.

It wouldn't work on anything lighter than the dread unless it had some _serious_ stabilisation.

That is a fact.

I know forums are seriously full of bs, but let us not take it to a physics debate. Mainly because I'll win


----------



## Winterous

The Real Sanguinius said:


> Guys.
> 
> I design parts for spacecraft for a living. Question me on my 40k rules all you like - let us not go there on the physics.
> 
> It wouldn't work on anything lighter than the dread unless it had some _serious_ stabilisation.
> 
> That is a fact.
> 
> I know forums are seriously full of bs, but let us not take it to a physics debate. Mainly because I'll win


Well it probably wouldn't be able to WALK straight without some _serious_ stabilisation.
Look at it this way, it's basically falling over backwards to pull the thing.


----------



## Baltar

I walk pretty straight without being able to pull a van along the road.

The only reason I pull myself toward the van, and not the van toward me, is because:

1: I weigh less than the van.

2: the van has _no_ horizontal stability - it's on weels (if we negate the hand brake).

However, put the hand brake on the van, and it aint goin' nowhere, bud.

Let's accept the facts and move on to the fact that the Magna Grapple is an awesome weapon, and even more highly amusing for its lack of physical accuracy.

It is a game, after all.


----------



## Winterous

The Real Sanguinius said:


> I walk pretty straight without being able to pull a van along the road.
> 
> The only reason I pull myself toward the van, and not the van toward me, is because:
> 
> 1: I weigh less than the van.
> 
> 2: the van has _no_ horizontal stability - it's on weels (if we negate the hand brake).
> 
> However, put the hand brake on the van, and it aint goin' nowhere, bud.
> 
> Let's accept the facts and move on to the fact that the Magna Grapple is an awesome weapon, and even more highly amusing for its lack of physical accuracy.
> 
> It is a game, after all.


Or, we could have an awesome bout of senseless speculation.

For a start, most of the vehicles you see in-game don't have rubber wheels, reducing traction with the ground, so that would reduce resistance to the pull.

Now, we look at how heavy the Dreadnought actually is.
Very heavy, an exact measure.
And compare it to, let's say a Land Raider.
Which has a huge empty compartment inside.
Probably not that much heavier than our Dreadnought.

Now we throw in some nonsense technology, like anti-gravity devices in the disk, and....


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## gen.ahab

It would be able to pull it given the proper leverage. If it were to dig it's feet in launch the pulling mech it would be able to drag somthing heavier in. Not somthing like a LR or or baneblade mind you but a pred could be done. But other than that 40k physics are not the best. Besides, it's not all about weight it is about leverage. It is why I, a 180 Ibs man, can pull my friend, a 210 Ibs man. It is all about leverage.


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## Ferik

Yeah logically it wouldn't be able to pull something as big as a Monolith or Landraider, it would more likely drag itself towards it.
In the end though rule wise it is possible which could represent the Dread pulling off a "heroic feat" and pulling off the unimaginable.


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## Baron Spikey

Just a little fact for you- an unladen Land Raider weighs 72 tons (courtesy of the very large poster sold by GW with the 3rd War of Armageddon issue WD detailing all about the Land Raider)


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## Galahad

Perhaps grapple-equipped dreads come with retractable stakes/drils built into their feet/legs, anchoring them to the ground when they fire.


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## Winterous

Galahad said:


> Perhaps grapple-equipped dreads come with retractable stakes/drils built into their feet/legs, anchoring them to the ground when they fire.


precisely, there's a lot of things that could rationalise it.


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## Baltar

I like dreadnoughts.


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## Winterous

The Real Sanguinius said:


> I like dreadnoughts.


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## Baltar

Precisely.


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## Sangus Bane

Sanguinary guard is awesome... *drewl*


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## Galahad

I'm still on the fence about them. They're pretty, but they're expensive and their weapons are sub-par. They get a PW that denies them a bonus attack in exchange for *one* rerolled miss, and they get a half-range stormbolter with AP4. That, a jump pack and a 2+ save for the cost of a terminator.

They can take Fists at a 15 point discount (because they already paid for a PW) and they can have deathmasks (which IS pretty nice) but I dunno, it;s a lot of points. It IS a better deal than most of our other elite assault choices though.

I do think they're more cost effective than Vanguard, but then Vanguard have *always* been too expensive, IMO. Vanguard with packs are only 5 points less, have a worse save, no power weapon and aren't fearless. Sure, they have heroic intervention, but that's a steep price to pay for an ability you might not use. 

Hell, Death Company with packs are just as insanely expensive as vanguard and they get a higher WS, Fearless, FNP, Furious Charge and Relentless.

The only elite assault unit that seems worthy these days is the Honour Guard, largely because of the grail and the fact they can all have special weapons.

Maybe I'm just bitter about getting raped on the price of jump packs on elite assault units. Regular assault squads pay 2 points for packs, the others all pay 10-15?! It used to be 5. 5 was fair.

I miss my old VAS <sob>

Still, I guess in retrospect the sang guard do look like a decent value. If you take the cost of a vet marine and add the price gouging jump packs, they;re basically paying 5 points for artificer armor, a cut down storm bolter and a power sword.

Too bad they can't have LCs though, that would be epic.


----------



## Winterous

Galahad said:


> They get a PW that denies them a bonus attack in exchange for *one* rerolled miss



How will this work in a group of 10?
Track each model's attacks individually, or just re-roll up to 10?


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## Galahad

Well, 'luckily' they only come in 5s
Which makes it easier to keep track of because, yeah, you're probably going to have to roll individually. Spring for the death masks to make it a little less hassle


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## Winterous

Galahad said:


> Well, 'luckily' they only come in 5s
> Which makes it easier to keep track of because, yeah, you're probably going to have to roll individually. Spring for the death masks to make it a little less hassle


I guess that isn't too big a deal.
And what do you mean by the underlined bit?


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## Galahad

You can give the unit death masks, which (assuming the unit they;re assaulting fails their LD test for it) makes the enemy fight at WS1 for the first phase. Means you'll be hitting on 3+ so less rerolls to deal with

It's all in my Thoughts on C:BA


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## Winterous

Aah ok, I understand now.


----------



## bitsandkits

The Real Sanguinius said:


> I walk pretty straight without being able to pull a van along the road.
> 
> The only reason I pull myself toward the van, and not the van toward me, is because:
> 
> 1: I weigh less than the van.
> 
> 2: the van has _no_ horizontal stability - it's on weels (if we negate the hand brake).
> 
> However, put the hand brake on the van, and it aint goin' nowhere, bud.
> 
> Let's accept the facts and move on to the fact that the Magna Grapple is an awesome weapon, and even more highly amusing for its lack of physical accuracy.
> 
> It is a game, after all.


Game or not the weight of the item doing the pulling has little to do with anything, the force expelled and friction are the key elements in the equation, A clear example of this would be the world strongest man events, if pulling was about weight of the strong man and nothing to do with his physical strength then 2 strong men of equal weight would always finish the pulling events in the same time. 
I would also place a wager that a fat bloke weighing 26 stone would not be able to move a fiat punto 1 inch if it had its brakes applied but i would put a months wages that Mariusz Pudzianowski would be able to move the car bakes and all and he weighs considerably less than a fiat punto. 
Many of the events in the worlds strongest man involved the competitors lifting or draging weights far in excess of there own bodyweights without the aid of wheels The physics of the magna grapple are sound enough.






nice video here start it at about 50 seconds and watch the men drag a 740lb anchor and chain then show me which one of those men weighs half the weight of that chain and anchor.


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## gen.ahab

bitsandkits said:


> Game or not the weight of the item doing the pulling has little to do with anything, the force expelled and friction are the key elements in the equation, A clear example of this would be the world strongest man events, if pulling was about weight of the strong man and nothing to do with his physical strength then 2 strong men of equal weight would always finish the pulling events in the same time.
> I would also place a wager that a fat bloke weighing 26 stone would not be able to move a fiat punto 1 inch if it had its brakes applied but i would put a months wages that Mariusz Pudzianowski would be able to move the car bakes and all and he weighs considerably less than a fiat punto.
> Many of the events in the worlds strongest man involved the competitors lifting or draging weights far in excess of there own bodyweights without the aid of wheels The physics of the magna grapple are sound enough.
> 
> 
> nice video here start it at about 50 seconds and watch the men drag a 740lb anchor and chain then show me which one of those men weighs half the weight of that chain and anchor.


THANK YOU! :laugh:


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## OIIIIIIO

I concur ... who is to say also that there isn't a block and tackle set up on the innards of the magna grapple ... that would increase the pulling power tremendously. I work with 250 ton cranes that I have directed the lift of a 175 ton piece ... and a crane setup with the various amount of pulleys that it has makes it unreal what the pulling power of a crane is capable of. Same would apply here if it used a similar setup.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord

It's not just weight that affects which moves towards which, it's also traction. 

Hypothetical:
-You're standing on grass.
-There is a small car (handbrake engaged) near you on an almost completely frictionless surface (smooth ice).
-There is a rope attached to the car that you can use to pull it.

Do you think you could pull the car?


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## Winterous

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> It's not just weight that affects which moves towards which, it's also traction.
> 
> Hypothetical:
> -You're standing on grass.
> -There is a small car (handbrake engaged) near you on an almost completely frictionless surface (smooth ice).
> -There is a rope attached to the car that you can use to pull it.
> 
> Do you think you could pull the car?


Yeah, I mentioned this before.
Most vehicles (almost exclusively Ork ones don't) have tracks, not tires.
Tracks have a lesser amount of friction with the ground, but they do dig in to soft terrain, which allows them good movement.
This makes pulling them easier (and let's face it, pulling a skimmer would be fucking easy).


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## Baltar

bitsandkits said:


> Game or not the weight of the item doing the pulling has little to do with anything, the force expelled and friction are the key elements in the equation, A clear example of this would be the world strongest man events, if pulling was about weight of the strong man and nothing to do with his physical strength then 2 strong men of equal weight would always finish the pulling events in the same time.
> I would also place a wager that a fat bloke weighing 26 stone would not be able to move a fiat punto 1 inch if it had its brakes applied but i would put a months wages that Mariusz Pudzianowski would be able to move the car bakes and all and he weighs considerably less than a fiat punto.
> Many of the events in the worlds strongest man involved the competitors lifting or draging weights far in excess of there own bodyweights without the aid of wheels The physics of the magna grapple are sound enough.
> 
> YouTube- Worlds Strongest Man 2009 qualifying group 4 part 1/7
> 
> nice video here start it at about 50 seconds and watch the men drag a 740lb anchor and chain then show me which one of those men weighs half the weight of that chain and anchor.


You're wrong. My 3rd higher level degree and everntually being called "doctor" stands up to this.

But please continue to bleet on all you like.

You can be the master of forum physics, and I'll just continue to live in the real world.

Deal?


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord

Proof?....


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## Baltar

of...?

For a start, the situation of dragging an anchor doesn't compare to standing still and dragging it towards you. All that is happening there is that the man and the anchor become coupled, as he moves along, dragging the anchor with him. Not that it's a relevant situation.

The anchor is not at all hooked to the ground, and has a very small surface area (the friction isn't that massive).

However, a tank has tracks, and someone incorrectly said that their friction is low. It is the reverse - tracks are there so that the friction is as large as possible, creating the largest possible tracktion (for the tank, that is), so that the tracks never slip on the ground. They contact the floor with a massive total surface area.

The only way for a dread to pull a tank is if the dread is anchored to the floor in some way (hooked feet, as Katie Drake already mentioned). Other than that, it makes no difference. The mass of both vehicles (and their friction to the ground) is the decider.

EG: Worlds strongest man. They have a contest where they pull along a jet plane. They don't "drag it", they pull and it rolls on its wheels. The brake isnt on. Put the brake on, and the jet is _going_nowhere_.....

It comes down to Newton's 3rd law of motion:

If you, for a moment, take the example of a skimmer. The skimmer has no friction, and let us pretend that the man pulling it has none either. If the man pulls hard on the chain, then the skimmer pulls back. The man weighs less than the skimmer, and will be pulled more rapidly towards the skimmer than the skimmer will be pulled towards the man (that is basic). However, give the man an anchorage, and the opposite will be true.


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## elkhantar

Physics should never apply to what's cool and what isn't and certainly not to a futuristic fantasy game. Anyone cares on how a magnet adheres to a non magnetic surface? (such as the eldar falcon may well be?) Anyone cares on why a floating monolith is more difficult to drag than a predator? Well no!! it just does and it's cool!

I know I'm going to model it with a barbed harpoon with retractable spikes instead of a magnet!

And about the friction issue. It's true; tracks generally generate more friction since they are designed to do so and have a much longer area than a wheel. That said, the friction coefficient of metal on asphalt or concrete is generally lower than rubber's. And yep, someone can pull something much heavier than oneself if the friction is small enough. 

So I can see the wickedly furious dread pulling vs the tracks slipping on mud or leaving a groove on the asphalt. I don't care if the dread ends up sunk to the waist level on the floor or anything; it's cool, and that's it. Say you use some forgotten gravitic system if you so desire, or spikes clamping the dread to the ground, if it floats your boat. I know that I'm going to be using flying dreads of doom and harpooning dreads dragging rhinos around


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## OIIIIIIO

Never been jeepin have you ... let me explain it to you doc. Tracks are fairly similar to a set of tires that I ran on a trail once, these tires are known as TSL Super Swamper Boggers, made by Interco. Nothing better in the world for going forward on them ... Zero side traction ...If you get on the side of a slab of rock with these things you can slide right down the damn thing ... you have nothing that give you a bite into it for traction. I don't need any cute little piece of paper to tell me that I am smart, I have real world experience and the wisdom to apply it.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord

This is all so off-topic:


The Real Sanguinius said:


> of...?
> 
> For a start, the situation of dragging an anchor doesn't compare to standing still and dragging it towards you. All that is happening there is that the man and the anchor become coupled, a.....


I don't give a shit about any of this. I want proof of this:



The Real Sanguinius said:


> My 3rd higher level degree and everntually being called "doctor" stands up to this.


The following I'll accept as proof:
-A photo of your multiple degrees next to the heresy website, with a sticky-note next to them reading: "Here are my degrees ChaosRCL. Now go fuck yourself you untrustworthy prick" (second sentence is optional).

Since you seem so eager to wave your degrees around I assume you won't mind showing them to us (or just me if you wanna PM). Just to prove you know what you talking about. I'm sure you understand:



The Real Sanguinius said:


> However, there was no fault in asking for actual varification. Taking the word of a stranger on the internet isn't something anyone can reasonably be expected to do...





The Real Sanguinius said:


> ...Especially on a forum where people constantly speak shit and never back up anything they say.


PS: Oh and sorry if it seems I'm being a complete bastard & being rude I'm just kinda sick of people waving imaginary degrees around to win arguments. (And if you can prove you have these degrees, good job and I apologize) [/rant over]


Now lets get back on topic and forget about the physics of the magna-grapple. Do the Sanguinius Guard have an invulnerable save? I suppose with all the cover in 5th ed and their liby's power to give a cover save they don't exactly need it. I'm just making excuses so I can see more of those beautiful models on the table (minus the nipples).


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## OIIIIIIO

IIRC SG don't have any inv. save but the nips have a 2+ inv. save for themselves:biggrin:


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## Baltar

They have no invul save, just a 2+ standard.

As for proof, I just wanted to know what it was that you wanted proof of. I can provide:

http://astro.kent.ac.uk/staff.html#msc

My name is on the list within the research Dept.

I start my third, for which I was accepted, next year.

I smash shit with a massive gun that shoots projectiles at 5km/s+

It. Is. Fun.


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## OIIIIIIO

You can take 1-3 Sang Priest it uses one elite slot ... could you take 6 total then (filling out two elite slots?)


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## Baltar

You could take 9, if you wanted to use up 3 elite slots.


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## Truefaith

You could take a libby in any form (dude or Dread) Give him the 5+ cover save psychic power and just run him within 6 inches of the SG squad. You could give the Dread Libby wings and the Cover Save. Jump in your turn to stay close to the SG then Cover save in your Opponents turn. Then they have an invuln and back up.


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## Cyklown

Lets not forget that it can't effect LandRaiders or anything else with an AV14 rear. Granted, a pred still weighs a ton, but it's more conceivable and an anchoring system could be deployed and used. Against a LR I'd be wondering what the odds of the ground you were anchored in getting torn up.


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## Galahad

Since the difficulty of the drag is based on the AV of the target, I'd say dragging a LR is very hard indeed, as reflected in the fact you've only got a 1/6 chance to pull it off. You can see at least some effort was put into coming up with something that was workable, polayable and slightly realistic. Vehicles with higher AV tend to be heavier and therefore harder to drag. Skimmers can always just reverse thrust or something to try and pull away.

I think Sand and B&K are both right to an extent. Mass is certainly not as important as friction, but without a lot of friction it just doesn't Try getting a strongman to pull a bus while on rollerskates and you see the problem. While dready feet probably have more fiction per square inch than tank tracks, there's orders of magnitude more surface area of the tracks in contact with the ground, and that's a lot to overcome, especially if you're pulling it sideways or something. It's best to assume grapple dreads must have some sort of anchor system and call it a day

Truefaith, while you can give the dread libby both those powers, he can only use one. There is no epislotory upgrade for him.

For the record, when I build a grapple dread it's going to include some form of anchor system, just for fun. 

PS: Not to take sides, Sang, but I liked Red's suggestion of the photo and the sticky note.  Not to say I don't believe you, but I could post this link
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0238380/

And say that's my name listed as playing John Preston. My job is to run around firing handguns at faceless soldiers and doing improbable slow-motion acrobatics and saving puppies.
It. Is...well, not as fun as you'd think, really. The puppies piss on you 9 times out of 10, and now and then a soldier has his visor up and suddenly you feel like a douche for shooting him.
Being Batman was pretty sweet though.


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## Cyklown

Er, what?
I thought it was 8+d6, beat the weakest armour value to drag?



It sounds like setting up an anchoring system could be fun, ESPECIALLY if you're used to converting stuff for Orks. I mean, big clunky hydraulic-looking piston-ey things with spikes? Hmmm... It almost sounds like you're destined for success there. Or, if not destined, at least facing high expectations from the rest of us. 

I kinda wish they'd given the Orks a magna-grapple, honestly. I'm not saying that BA shouldn't get one, but if such things exist at all, it seems like da Mechz would have thought to bolt 'em onto Dreds before anyone else did.


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## Baltar

Galahad said:


> PS: Not to take sides, Sang, but I liked Red's suggestion of the photo and the sticky note.  Not to say I don't believe you, but I could post this link
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0238380/


I don't have the degree certificates with me to photograph. However, since the challenge has been set, I will provide something that I can photograph that would completely confirm that what I say is true.

How about if I take a picture of the space lab, showing the giant gun, with the lab computer displaying this thread?

Deal?


----------



## Galahad

Cyklown said:


> Er, what?
> I thought it was 8+d6, beat the weakest armour value to drag?


Nope, It's 8+d6, match or beat *highest* AV. 
So it's almost (but not quite) impossible to drag russes, battlewagons, liths, raiders, etc, extremely hard to drag predators, etc.



> It sounds like setting up an anchoring system could be fun, ESPECIALLY if you're used to converting stuff for Orks. I mean, big clunky hydraulic-looking piston-ey things with spikes? Hmmm...
> 
> I kinda wish they'd given the Orks a magna-grapple, honestly. I'm not saying that BA shouldn't get one, but if such things exist at all, it seems like da Mechz would have thought to bolt 'em onto Dreds before anyone else did.


Yeah, I was surprised by the grapple, it seems like it would be a natural on a Deff dread



The Real Sanguinius said:


> I don't have the degree certificates with me to photograph.


You don't have it on your wall? I would. But then, I'd probably scan it, take it to cafepress and have shirts made.



> However, since the challenge has been set, I will provide something that I can photograph that would completely confirm that what I say is true.
> 
> How about if I take a picture of the space lab, showing the giant gun, with the lab computer displaying this thread?
> 
> Deal?


I don't know about Red, but it certainly works for me LOL


----------



## Baltar

You were surprised by the grapple?

I was surprised by the "Frag Cannon" - an ork weapon if ever I heard one. Especially on a dread'.


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## Cyklown

Yes. Railgun pics, etc. will mollify us.



As for the Frag cannons: Everyone needs more shotguns. I'd replace my tl shurikats on my vehicles if I could.


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## Baltar

Then next time I'm in there, later this week, I'll get those pics taken! 

For those of you interested, I have started a thread on my BA and a mephiston conversion.

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58890

Hopefully there are some people out there that hate the Mephy mini as much as I do.


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## Galahad

yeah, the frag cannon really seems like an alternate grotzooka

God, imagine a frag/HF dread?
Three high strength templates piled on top of one another.
Though I still think talons are more effective.

Won't stop me designing more arms for Brother Versitus though.









He needs more options!









Imagine him with a grapple. "'C'mere, ya little fucker!"

I'll have to whip up a magnetic hood for him too.


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## Baltar

I really do feel spoilt for choice with the new 'dex. I want everything, and I want it now.


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## Crimson Shadow

I personally can't wait for the new, hopefully plastic, furioso dreadnaught. I want to see the new blood claws, the magna-grapple, the frag cannon, etc. This is going to be one jam-packed box set.


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## Lord Reevan

I much prefer converting my second furiouso arms. two of the same tiny hand looking ones are fairly boring at times. (not on your dread Gal. Nothing could make that thing boring )

here is my second dread arm made from 3 chainswords and the lascannon mount for a dread. the circular bit is a barrel thingy from battle for macragge( optional really, anything could do) and the meltas a standard one cut down. 

















EDIT. Apologies for the shite paintjob. it's not my best area and it was a second hand dread


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## Galahad

I dig the chainsaw hand. That'd make a perfect blood talon.

And trust me, I find Brother Versitus' stubby DCCW hands to be quite boring. I plan to fix that in the near future, as soon as I get my hands on an ironclad and a ven dred and maybe some spare bits from same. He'll be getting pimped up CCWs, (magnetic) talon attachments for them(I may steal your chainsaw idea), more weapon arm options, a (magnetic) hood and force blade...ideally you should be able to build any dread out of him by the time I finish.

I have an idea for using the 'hand' like venerable DCCW to hold weapons rather than replacing arms. Give him a super mecha shotgun, a big sword, a double-barreled lascannon, etc that he can just grab in his titanic mitt.

Trust me, plans are in motion...


----------



## Winterous

Cyklown said:


> I kinda wish they'd given the Orks a magna-grapple, honestly. I'm not saying that BA shouldn't get one, but if such things exist at all, it seems like da Mechz would have thought to bolt 'em onto Dreds before anyone else did.


Picture it:

Roll to hit *cough*
8+D6, equal or greater than highest armour value.
If successful, move the Dread 2d6" towards the vehicle :laugh:


----------



## Baltar

They should not only be able to pull the vehicle towards them, but also be able to move along, dragging the vehicle along with them...

That would be funny game times.


----------



## Galahad

Comes with rocket powered roller skates and an ORKME catalogue.


----------



## Winterous

The Real Sanguinius said:


> They should not only be able to pull the vehicle towards them, but also be able to move along, dragging the vehicle along with them...
> 
> That would be funny game times.


What I mean is, Deff Dreads would lose their footing VERY easily.


----------



## Baltar

Ya.

What I mean is, it would be awesome if they changed the magna grapple rule so that you could shoot it and then walk around with the tank still attached - dragging it around the place.

Win times.


----------



## Truefaith

Galahad said:


> Truefaith, while you can give the dread libby both those powers, he can only use one. There is no epislotory upgrade for him.


I agree, but (and I could be wrong) page 50 of the BRB says you can only use one Psychic power per player turn(unless your codex gives you some ability to use more). Now on page 63 of the Blood Angels Codex it says that a libby can only use 1 power per player turn also.

A player turn is your turn or your opponents turn. So, Wings of Sang. says use it in your movement phase, and Shield of Sang. says use it at the start of your opponents shooting phase. So those are different player turns correct? So you can actually do 2 powers per game turn, correct?


----------



## Galahad

You're right. I am aware that powers are per player turn, I just didn't realize shield of sang is used in the opponent's shooting phase. 

That's pretty cool, actually.
Learn something new every day ;-)


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## Winterous

Galahad said:


> You're right. I am aware that powers are per player turn, I just didn't realize shield of sang is used in the opponent's shooting phase.
> 
> That's pretty cool, actually.
> Learn something new every day ;-)


What does Shield do?


----------



## Galahad

5+ cover save to all units within 6"


----------



## Russellonfire

Galahad said:


> 5+ cover save to all units within 6"


meh, I've seen worse, and much better tbh... PAathfinders 2+ cover save!


----------

