# Eldar Jetbikes - How do you deal with them?



## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Hey everyone,

Lately one of my regular Eldar opponents has been fielding an army consisting of two near full warlock jetbike squads with a farseer in each (warding, witnessing, doom, fortune). Once these squads become fortuned, they become nearly impossible to remove over the course of the game.

So, what do you do?

Thing's I've found that don't really work.

Mass wounding with small arms fire - the chance to fail a 3+ rerollable save is a mere 10%.

High Str, Low AP plates - due to 2" cohesion, the most I'm ever getting is 3, and with a 4+ rerollable invulnerable, he might lose 1. 




I'm thinking mass wounding with high str low ap weapons might be the key, however it is incredibly difficult to find a unit that can do so (really, all I can think of are 3 war walkers with 2 bright lances each guided). Not to mention, it also becomes very expensive, very quick and probably doesn't play out well in the end.

Maybe a dark eldar dark lance spam would work.


Anyways, what do you do against them?


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I play Eldar and I think 2 full squads is very very risky at Pts lvl and it will seriously cut into other models. But should I face such said case I say use 2+ or MEQ saves against them in mass #s and try to just tie them up in CC. For my Chaos I would use Plague Marines in a full squad. FNP and 3+ save works wonders against Witchblades. Also massive units like IG Platoons that cost next to nill tieong up the Seer Council. The hard part with this tatic is GETTING in CC. Jetbikes Move, Shoot, and Move. Seer Councils on Jetbikes are worse cause of their 4+ rerollable Inv. Save and the Witch Blades kills MCs and Armore Values like nothing. So another sound tatic is use a Horde setup. It will overcome the Councils saves when shooting and Assualting with the council nowhere to really run too. Heres a Solid victor against SC Jetbikes, GKs with Null Rods and those Psycannons. Instant Win against Seer Councils.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

Tau Battle Suits work wonders for me, as you play eldar what about warp spiders they have a S6 Assault gun, if you were to use DE as you said DL spam is easy or you could Incubi in CC with them it will destroy them with all the saves they have to take, plus using DL's will make sure it's Instant Kill with them - they aren't immune to it.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

I wouldn't worry too much about going for Instant Death. Those heavy shots will be attributed to the warlocks first. Being single wounders, they will just die anyway. How to stop re-rollable 3+/4+ save bike council? A **** ton of shots from far away! DS behind to hit the troops, too. 

The chance to fail a double 3+ save may be around 10% but enough of those getting in will reduce the scary squad to something that you don't mind facing so much in close combat. Using Prisms, Falcons, even Dark Reapers to good enough effect will make those squads something you won't mind catching with Striking Scorpions, or even doom the unit and hit it with Banshees. You could probably each with the same units, minus one or two, that I just listed. 

He is putting up a couple SUPER expensive units. They aren't scoring units so you could lock em and keep em locked.(Ork method) Or you could even take them out with a ton of troops. I would actually like to see what a some guardians could do without getting flamed. A ton of Dire Avenger shots could put in a good dent. Especially if the units were doomed and if some of yours were guided.

You could take your own Farseer with runes of warding so he still has to make normal checks and therefore has a better chance to fail it. That would give a slightly better chance to get past the fortuned saves.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Yeah, ultimately getting some units in melee with them that have good armour saves will fuck them up.
They can't do any damage (no power weapons), can't escape too well (you won't do much to them), and it'll just be a bit of a standstill.

Really, those things have to be at least 1/3 of his army.
So if you can tie them up you'll be SWEET.


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## Tigirus (Apr 13, 2008)

A full strength leman russ punisher squad with heavy bolters would work, 60 Punisher shots coupled with 27 heavy bolter shots would make them take quite a few wounds, but that is quite a large points sink without the ability to follow them easily. I think that a squadron of hydras would be the best for guard. Although a deathstrike would be more exciting.

For marines fight fire with fire, TH/SS Terminators and a librarian, the librarian could try to get rid of enemy psychic powers and help by using null zone, forcing the warlocks and farseers to re-roll successful invulnerable saves. since you can only re-roll once they would roll all the dice, and the pick them and roll them all again. The only problem would be getting them into assualt range of the bikes, gate could work but you might lose a terminator. Another option is using sternguard with the rounds that have ap 3 (forgot the name) that could take them out but again, shot range. 

Athough the best option is seeing that those two units alone are around 950pts assuming he has 8 warlocks in each squad. best thing to do is just tie them up in combat with mobs of infantry and take out the rest of their army, seeing that all those units have a base attack profile of 1 meaning that 40 man squad of conscripts with a lord commissar will take them 5 turns to take out at best with the commissar holding the squad in place.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Yeah, what army do you play?
We could help you form a strategy if you tell us


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

I play Orks and CSM atm - I use to have Eldar but alas no more 

I usually throw nob bikers at them, which usually tie them up for the game, but its quite a few points to be using to just 'tie them up'. If I'm using chaos I throw 2 squads of zerkers into them, again, with the transport, it's a lot of points.

I realize they are quite a few points, but if not dealt with, they will cause you to lose quite a few points. 8 ish heavy flamers coupled with doom usually results in a dead squad of 30 boyz so that's usually not an option (given their superior movement). I've tried heavy lootas which does seem to work well however is not feasable against other armies.

I guess I'm not so much concerned with the unit itself as I can usually tie it up, I'm just looking for what I'm missing to kill them.


Like I said above, mass wounding is easy to get on the bikers but really doesn't do much. You really need to be able to do a lot of wounds, roughly 20 to cause a death... Not many units can do that without sacrificing a lot of points in other units and really crippling yourself against other builds.

All in all, I'm just seeing what other people do to stop them - Maybe I am just going to have to resort to just keeping them tied up for the game.

My common Ork list http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=389995#post389995


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Well there is NO ranged weapon in the whole game that can ignore both a 3+ armour save and an Invulnerable save.

The only melee units that can are Necron Pariahs, Lords with Warscythes, and C'tan.

Now, CSM and Orks will have serious trouble against them, as nothing they have can counter them.

Although I do have an idea for CSM.
Take a Sorcerer with Gift of Chaos, get within 6" of the Farseer (he's the problem really), and use GoC.
On a 4+, he dies, simple.
Unfortunately, he's going to have Runes of Warding, so passing the Psychic test will be an issue, but given that you'll almost surely kill the Farseer.

But even if you can get a SINGLE S6 model in combat with them, you stand a chance of instant-killing the Farseer, he's an independant Character, so he can be picked out in melee.
A Daemon prince would do it, so would anything with a Power Fist, and same for a Lord with the Blissgiver (instant-kill daemon weapon).

For Orks your options are far more open, as Nobs can hit with S6 even without a Power Fist.
Consider trying a Shokk Attack Gun though, it's very powerful, and has a 1/36 chance of removing everything touched by the blast


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

with orks 20 lootas will nail them fairly well or just a single 20 man ork boy squad with nob with bosspole and big choppa - instant kill with the nob as they have invul saves no need for power klaw


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Grey knights with Psycannons.

need i say more?


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Orochi said:


> Grey knights with Psycannons.
> 
> need i say more?


Oh yes, because that will certainly neutralise their 3+ ARMOUR SAVE.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

It's really just about weight of attacks. Hit them many, many times and make them roll a lot of saves. Back when Ulthwe were around I used to drop their seer councils by hitting them with kroot and submunitions, and they always fell over eventually. That won't work quite the same now that they all carry destructor, but you don't have to do so many wounds. You used to see squads of 20 back when you could get a warlock for 11 points.

Psychic defences are useful up to a point if you can remove fortune. Null zone cancels out fortune and is even better if your hood works, but you are working against runes of warding.

They don't cancel your armour save so they aren't great against MEQ. Zerkers and plague marines are both pretty good aggainst them in cc. A big unit of black templars could take them, as could mega nobz I expect.

A good defence against them (and many other things) is to get into a transport and drive 12". They may kill your tank but not the guys inside.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Winterous said:


> Oh yes, because that will certainly neutralise their 3+ ARMOUR SAVE.


Grey knight heavy weapon squad.

thats 4 psycannons.

thats 12 shots.

thats 9 hits.

thats 7 wounds

thats 2-3 dead.

at range 36".

From one squad.

And seeing as pimped up Seer councils cost a bomb, there wont be much else to shoot at.

Do the math and use your head?


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Orochi said:


> Grey knight heavy weapon squad.
> 
> thats 4 psycannons.
> 
> ...


Ok, so, basically what you're saying is that Heavy Bolters would be good against them?
Why don't we just go to Lasguns? They're less good but also significantly more numerous.

*They re-roll failed saving rolls in case you haven't been reading the bloody thread.*

It wouldn't be 2-3 dead, it would be (according to maths) just over 0.7 dead.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Including the volume of storm bolter fire and everything else, i *believe* it equates to higher.

Not to mention Grey knights are significantly better in close combat.

And that Inquistors can carry all sorts of equipment to deal with Psychic powers.

Daemon hunters and Witch hunters are the best armies for dealing with Seer councils, as you would expect.

Failing that Pariahs, who ignore both armour and inv saves.

How i miss my Chaos space marine Daemon Prince with a dread axe...


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Yes given, but you've come along and said that Psycannon are the be-all and end-all of Seer councils on Jetbikes, when they're only SLIGHTLY better than regular heavy-bolters.

Regular space marines would do much better than Daemonhunters though, as the extra mass of gunfire and better tanks would help a lot.


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## arkiokiller (Jul 11, 2009)

well depending on the army, like space marines, sniping can be your friend. the rending and pinning helps a lot. or you can use heavy bolter. those killed them when i used them.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

arkiokiller said:


> well depending on the army, like space marines, sniping can be your friend. the rending and pinning helps a lot. or you can use heavy bolter. those killed them when i used them.


Actually, I'd say sniper rifles are better invested elsewhere.
The rending doesn't help _much_ because of their 4+ invulnerable save, so negating their armour only helps a little.
You could use those snipers to pin other units, because the Warlocks aren't like to be pinned (embolden, helps a lot).


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Winterous has decided he owns this Thread.

I have received several Ignorant PMs about the fact he doesn't like that I have an oppinion on the matter.

I suggest we all just stop posting and let him have his little moment.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Orochi said:


> Winterous has decided he owns this Thread.
> 
> I have received several Ignorant PMs about the fact he doesn't like that I have an oppinion on the matter.
> 
> I suggest we all just stop posting and let him have his little moment.


I didn't send you any ignorant PMs, you came in here with a BAD idea, I shot it down, and you called me an idiot with false calculations.
YOU failed, YOU made an ass of yourself, fuck off and stop pretending to be better than everyone else.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

Winterous said:


> I didn't send you any ignorant PMs, you came in here with a BAD idea, I shot it down, and you called me an idiot with false calculations.
> YOU failed, YOU made an ass of yourself, fuck off and stop pretending to be better than everyone else.


Case closed


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

What the hell are you two arguing about? The pair of you should be embarrassed by this.

Orochi: DH are really nothing special against eldar to be honest. A GK heavy squad with 4 psycannons is spectactularly expensive for 5 guys with heavy bolters. The normal infantry squads might actually do ok, though again they aren't really a unit that is going to put all that many wounds on the eldar, relative to your investment in points.

Winterous: Stop acting like you are god's gift to 40k. You aren't. Maybe if you had some kind of positive suggestion instead of just sarcastically shooting people down then you would be taken seriously.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

I'll stick with my Pariah idae then, but they are too slow.

I suppose the mounted seer council is one of those units where you just 'do your best'.


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

Depends what army you are using. For necrons, destroyers are probably the best option because they can stay out of cc and shoot hard. C'tan are terrible, because witch blades wound them on a 2+ and eldar often field snipers as well. Pariahs are just bad, all the time, and won't get an attack in cc against the eldar (remember, wound on a 2+ negates their toughness).

It really isn't rocket science though. They have a good save, so make them take a lot of saves.


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## jasontracy (Mar 3, 2009)

i Had a question kinda related to this. Is a walking (or mounted in a wave serpent) seer council just as deadly as the jet bike version? My friend usually has eldrad + 10 warlocks in a wave serpent and i have to play him next week for our local tournament just wondering if the same strategy against a jet bike version would work for a wave serpent with eldrad.


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## Orochi (Jan 28, 2009)

nah, On a jetbike they receive an Armour save of 3+

on foot ,the only have an inv save of 4+, bar Eldrad who has a 3+ inv.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

If you have an issue with the Moderators, take it to PM, do not argue it publically.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

I agree that making them take a handful of saves each is the way to do it for Orks. Throw the whole army at them, and you can do it. The problem is, Orks have nothing that can deal with Seer Councils on Bikes in the Dex. Lootas can inflict serious hurt, but are unreliable, and vulnerable to being Destructor'd. They're also needed, of course, to take out the supporting Fire Prisms blowing chucks out of your face. CSM have an easier time, as said - tarpit him. Drive 2/3 Rhinos of PMs 12" up to him, and use smokes. It'll take enough of his attacks to bring you down, even with Singing Spears, that you may end the turn with all 3 units intact and unengaged. If so, let rip, and charge. Charging isn't ideal, of course, but you can't let him fly over you and hit those Oblits Plasma Cannoning his bikes.

Vindicators terrify Jetlocks.


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## Asmodeun (Apr 26, 2009)

> Well there is NO ranged weapon in the whole game that can ignore both a 3+ armour save and an Invulnerable save.
> 
> The only melee units that can are Necron Pariahs, Lords with Warscythes, and C'tan.


Not sure if anyone else pointed this out (it's a _long_ thread) but thingy assasins phase blades do too


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Asmodeun said:


> Not sure if anyone else pointed this out (it's a _long_ thread) but thingy assasins phase blades do too


Not sure a 0.1" rangecounts as a ranged weapon though...


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## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

How do witch blades work against vehicles? I dont have the dex with me, but would a dreadnaught take these guys out?


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## Cocakoala (Apr 27, 2009)

Witchblades in combat with something with an armor value triples the users strength so warlocks are strength 9 in combat with a dred and they get 2 attacks each if they are charged (which they wont be:grin. So no a dred wouldnt be the best of choices.

Anyway im with the keep them in combat with a high armor save person camp. If you keep them trapped there for long enough you might be able to mop up the rest of the army.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Don't forget Pauly that they'll very likely be WS5 as well, so it's very unlikely that a Dreadnought will do more than blow up in their faces.


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## Master_Caleb (Jan 5, 2009)

I noticed people have said things like "plague marines in transport", but truthfully I'd be glad for you to bring your transport towards my bikes. You have to remember that if you can't emergency disembark from the rhino without being with 1'' of an enemy the whole squad is killed. Jetbike movement will likely allow them to surround the small rhino, and get rid of the squad inside of it. Given that if it explodes that's a different story, but it's still a prospect that should be considered. 

Thanks,

~MC


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## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

The key is to kill the farseer with a power fist. It shouldnt be hard since he is an IC. Then you need to have an armor save that will survive the witchblades. Then you need a way to get there. A space marine squad in a Land raider with a power fist would work fine. It will take a round or two of CC, since the Fortune power has to wear off.


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## ooglatjama (May 20, 2009)

That guy who said use the sorcerer was a good idea, here's another one like it. Use a vindicare assassin. He has 30+ inches range, he hits on a 2 and wounds on a 4 and for one shot you can use that invul save ignoring round.


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Not really Pauly. 2A for mr Serg. 1 hit. 1 wound, one re-rollable 4+ Inv save. Fortune can be cast in CC - it never runs out while a Seer lives. A Raider also won't prove any more successful at getting there than a Rhino - both will be easily popped by Singing Spears/Witchblades. 

ooglatjama: Yes, but he only has one such shot - the Farseer has 3 Wounds.


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## Inquisitor Einar (Mar 6, 2009)

I would say, bring a culexus assasin.. when he's within 12" of a council, his weapon is Assault TEN, he hits on 2s, wounds on 3s, and AP1, so they only get their double invulnerable save. Oh.. and if their psy powers aren't on when he gets in range.. they can forget about those with their ld7.
Alternatively, a primaris psyker squad will be nice to lower their leadership to prevent them from using psy powers. after that, you can then pin them with a vindicare or some ratlings.
This all from an imperial perspective ofcourse.
Oh.. and a DH/WH inq lord with a psy hood.. shuts down 50% of their powers anyway, and you need one to bring in the assasin...


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## Frank (Nov 2, 2007)

The culexus assissin would be good, however, it would only be good against this build - it seems a waste of points and resources to sink on the off chance you play against eldar. 

I'm an avid Eldar player and was (I believe) the first person to use the JB seer council at GT's when everyone had written them off as too costly and ineffective. From what the previous comments are suggesting, the train of thought appears to be what single unit can kill the JB seer council? I personally think that the idea of tying them up in cc is probably the best way to go as most armies will have a unit or two which can bog them down without sacrificing their own army builds just to cater for seer councils. However, why not look at what, when combined with another unit or two, can all work together to kill them? 

After some thought I've come up with SM allied with DH. Have the librarian with null zone to cancel out fortune, take an assassin (the polymorphine one with the c'tan blade thingy) and either an assault sqd or termintor sqd. Try and move so that all can charge at the same time with the assassin focusing on the farseer to get rid of fortune for subsequent turns. That way with the fire from storm bolters/pistol before asssaulting and without fortune they will drop like flys.  On the other hand, if you fail to take out the farseer you'll still have null zone which will help you take them down still, just not as quickly. It's all about taking out the farseer with fortune.

This is by far from a perfect tactic but it has worked for me when i've gone against my own army, but does require careful planning and not being distracted. Up against 2 JB seer councils? What can say other than you're stuffed and just play for objecives and tie them down (hopefully away from contesting objectives) as that is what the eldar player will be playing for as JB seer councils aren't exactly the most killy unit in the game.


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## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

TKE,

I would argue that equal points of assault marines would stomp a seer council + Farseer. neither side would be able to kill that many of the other. A rerollable 4+ save is significantly worse than a 3+ (1/4 fails vrs 1/9). So, with 4 powerfist wounds, you can kill the farseer, and then the rest of the unit is screwed.


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## b.anthracis (Nov 18, 2008)

When my math is correct a 3+ will yield in 33.33% of a rolls a fail, whereas a 4+ rerol able just in 25% of cases.
So a 4+ rerollable is preferable

Ah you mean reroll 3+ ...allright.. didn't say anything! I just shut up.


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## Styro-J (Jan 20, 2009)

The problem is when they face a 3+ rerollable. Seriously, it's not that hard to figure out. We have 5 pages that say the same thing. Focus a ton of wounds on them, tie them up, or try to pick out the farseer. There is a million ways to do that. Just pick one.


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## Ferik (Nov 5, 2008)

I myself have had great success using SM Honour Guard against Warlock Bikes due to the 2+ save and massive amount of power weapon attacks
throw in a Librarian and you cause alot of headaches for the Warlocks.

My other choice is of coarse Thunderhammer Termies which have taking out 2bike warlock units by themselves during the coarse of a game.

Of coarse with many of these instances it all comes down to the luck of the dice so no real guarantee.

Anyways my 2 cents.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Sorry for abandoning this post, I got married over the weekend and was very busy haha!



Someguy said:


> Depends what army you are using. For necrons, destroyers are probably the best option because they can stay out of cc and shoot hard. C'tan are terrible, because witch blades wound them on a 2+ and eldar often field snipers as well. Pariahs are just bad, all the time, and won't get an attack in cc against the eldar (remember, wound on a 2+ negates their toughness).
> 
> It really isn't rocket science though. They have a good save, so make them take a lot of saves.


This is what I arrived at, HOWEVER, there actually isn't much in the game that I can think of off the top of my head that can put enough wounding on this unit so that it becomes crippled. Very roughly, you need to do about 10 wounds to the unit to kill a single bike with their 3+ reroll and since most mass wounding is low str high ap, they will most likely get their 3+. When you think about what it takes for a str 4 weapon to score 10 wounds on a T4 unit, you are looking at roughly 30 shots - to lose 1 guy.... The only things that come to mind are lootas, maybe a heavy bolter havoc squad, a punisher squadron... not much. I know when I use my lootas, they are usually pointed at the dark reapers before they get wiped off the table in a round of shooting.

Additionally, are the warlocks not considered a retinue for the farseer and thus isn't he unable to be picked out with a power fist unless you can do enough PF wounds to the squad (unlikely) or am I being screwed on this?

Also, a very tough and very common list are 2 full squads of jetbikers - working together. There isn't much that can stand up to 1400 points of witchblades and destructors. In fact, in a recent 2000 point tourney here, another player fielding something close to full squads of jetbikes, dark reapers, and rangers and actually did very very well as those 2 squads of bikes ripped through squad after squad. You gotta think, they don't need to wipe the squad in combat, only beat it enough so that they force a ld test and then run them down.

Anyways, lets keep the thoughts flowing!


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## TheKingElessar (Mar 31, 2009)

Nope., def not a retinue. No modern Dexes have Retinues. Congrats on getting hitched. 

Orks have inordinate trouble with Seer Councils. As usual, a Deff Rolla is probably the best bet, hope you get enough wounds to lap onto the Seer, and that he fails twice. More importantly, if you put Lootas in a Wagon a few times, those Dark Reapers will stop coming out of the case, allowing you to target the Council.


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## Blue Liger (Apr 25, 2008)

If only the DE could have Incubi on the DE jetbikes = 3 S5 attacks on the charge with a WS of 5 plus they will be hitting first most of the time...


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## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

I think Orks answer would be their own Nob Bikers. With powerklaws and a waagh banner, they get more attacks, Have identical saves (4+ armor and FNP is equiv to 4+ rerollable) and more wounds, and the ability to abuse wound allocation. Just be careful that you don't get destructored first.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Pauly55 said:


> I think Orks answer would be their own Nob Bikers. With powerklaws and a waagh banner, they get more attacks, Have identical saves (4+ armor and FNP is equiv to 4+ rerollable) and more wounds, and the ability to abuse wound allocation. Just be careful that you don't get destructored first.


Yeah, I mentioned this earlier, however this is more of a tarpit than a means of dealing with the jetbikes. With this, my killy unit which also happens to be one of my troop choices is now locked in combat for the remainder of the game. Not to mention that they will still get their 3+ armour /w reroll against my normal attacks (all power klaws is not feasible in price or playability in an all comers list).


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## Pauly55 (Sep 16, 2008)

Well Crim, another option is MANz in a battle wagon. The real key here is that you make sure that your powerklaw nobz make it in to b2b with the farseer.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Pauly55 said:


> Well Crim, another option is MANz in a battle wagon. The real key here is that you make sure that your powerklaw nobz make it in to b2b with the farseer.


Yeah, this could be a pretty good option - I still think you'll be stuck there for at least 90% of the game though. Might need to try this though.


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## Cheeseball317 (Jun 11, 2008)

since he is running two squads, that's both his hq's. try to tie up both squads and then the fortune/doom combo will stop.


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## farseerphil (Sep 1, 2009)

The combo will continue since you can cast non shooting psychic powers(at the beginning of your turn) whilst in base 2Base contact in assault.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Aug 3, 2009)

Just get a big mob of Stormboyz and krump'em.

or

Obliterators, the cheese to end all cheese.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Just get a big mob of Stormboyz and krump'em.
> 
> or
> 
> Obliterators, the cheese to end all cheese.


Storm boys might work actually.

But Obliterators won't when they have a 3/4 save rate.


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## SKITTLESKITTEN (Feb 12, 2008)

I guess just get them in CC, warlocks aren't that great in CC last I checked, if you could tie them up and get some terminators in there it should spell doom for him


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

SKITTLESKITTEN said:


> I guess just get them in CC, warlocks aren't that great in CC last I checked, if you could tie them up and get some terminators in there it should spell doom for him


Eventually.
Although they can't do much damage against anything with a decent save, they're FUCKING tough!


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## Lash Machine (Nov 28, 2008)

When playing against seer council I found that assaulting the unit and putting as many instant death wounds on the farseer as possible is the way to go. Take him out first and the rest will then get mashed in the next assault phase. You averagely need 4 wounding instant kills to do him. it also counts as three wounds for the result of combat.

Remember you only need str 6 to instant kill him. If using nob bikers make sure you have plentyu of klaw and big choppas. Even when charged against a big choppa is strenght 6 with 3 Attacks.

If using chaos then daemon princes and terminator armour is a good way to go. If you do have a lash Prince or two it is worth giving it a go of casting. You have a 50/50 chance of being successful and could move the bikers around so that you face as few warlocks as possibe when they pile in.

This works even better against nob bikers as there is no runes of warding to worry about.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Lash Machine said:


> If using chaos then daemon princes and terminator armour is a good way to go. If you do have a lash Prince or two it is worth giving it a go of casting. You have a 50/50 chance of being successful and could move the bikers around so that you face as few warlocks as possibe when they pile in.


Using any Psychic powers against Eldar is a bad idea, a huge risk for what is usually little benefit.

You do have a point about the instant-death though, taking out the Farseer drastically reduces their toughness.


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## Lash Machine (Nov 28, 2008)

Winterous said:


> Using any Psychic powers against Eldar is a bad idea, a huge risk for what is usually little benefit.
> 
> You do have a point about the instant-death though, taking out the Farseer drastically reduces their toughness.


A daemon Prince's LD is 10. the average roll on 3 D6 is 10.5, which translates into a 50/50 split between rolling 10 or under or 11 or more. With two Deamon princes I would actually chance this as the averagely one would cast providing I could get a benefit out of lashing them into a more pleasing formation. It would be possible to arrange them so that only four warlocks could engage in the first round leaving the farseer to deal with 10 Attacks hitting on 3's and instant kill on 2s. If there were five or less warlocks than I would not bother.

Similary if I were using my Marines then I would chance casting Null zone with my Librarian, just before my TH SS Terminators wade in. A 50/50 chance of either them not be able to reroll or me taking a wound on a character that justs hides in a landraider is worth a shot.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Lash Machine said:


> A daemon Prince's LD is 10. the average roll on 3 D6 is 10.5, which translates into a 50/50 split between rolling 10 or under or 11 or more. With two Deamon princes I would actually chance this as the averagely one would cast providing I could get a benefit out of lashing them into a more pleasing formation. It would be possible to arrange them so that only four warlocks could engage in the first round leaving the farseer to deal with 10 Attacks hitting on 3's and instant kill on 2s. If there were five or less warlocks than I would not bother.
> 
> Similary if I were using my Marines then I would chance casting Null zone with my Librarian, just before my TH SS Terminators wade in. A 50/50 chance of either them not be able to reroll or me taking a wound on a character that justs hides in a landraider is worth a shot.


I guess, but the risk of taking a Perils hit is high.
Oh well though, might as well if you need it.

And yeah, Null Zone just counters Fortune in that case, which is important.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Frank said:


> The culexus assissin would be good, however, it would only be good against this build - it seems a waste of points and resources to sink on the off chance you play against eldar.
> 
> I'm an avid Eldar player and was (I believe) the first person to use the JB seer council at GT's when everyone had written them off as too costly and ineffective. From what the previous comments are suggesting, the train of thought appears to be what single unit can kill the JB seer council? I personally think that the idea of tying them up in cc is probably the best way to go as most armies will have a unit or two which can bog them down without sacrificing their own army builds just to cater for seer councils. However, why not look at what, when combined with another unit or two, can all work together to kill them?
> 
> ...



Well, I can't believe this thread is still going, it means that many people are having problems with this unit as well. 

After playing them over the last couple of months, I've come to a couple of conclusions.

A full unit of them is roughly 750 points (thats a huge investment and going to be very difficult to make make). Additionally, they are not a troop choice. Lately, I've just been feeding them something as simple as a unit of blood claws. Sure, I usually loose the squad, but it means that 750 points is tied up for a round or two. Lately, all I've been doing is feeding two or so of these cheap squads and concentrating on whats left of his very little army. It's worked pretty good.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Crimzzen said:


> Well, I can't believe this thread is still going, it means that many people are having problems with this unit as well.
> 
> After playing them over the last couple of months, I've come to a couple of conclusions.
> 
> A full unit of them is roughly 750 points (thats a huge investment and going to be very difficult to make make). Additionally, they are not a troop choice. Lately, I've just been feeding them something as simple as a unit of blood claws. Sure, I usually loose the squad, but it means that 750 points is tied up for a round or two. Lately, all I've been doing is feeding two or so of these cheap squads and concentrating on whats left of his very little army. It's worked pretty good.


That is what I said since Page 1 :so_happy:. Dont obsess in taking out this army build. Its near Impossible. Instead come to realise that tying this squad up with Units that ingnor Damage pretty well, or has good saves can tie up this squad (and possibly break them if they are wounded enough) long enough to kill whats left of his meager force and go for the win. 

Dont kill them, tie them up, and watch his awsome build crumble.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> That is what I said since Page 1 :so_happy:. Dont obsess in taking out this army build. Its near Impossible. Instead come to realise that tying this squad up with Units that ingnor Damage pretty well, or has good saves can tie up this squad (and possibly break them if they are wounded enough) long enough to kill whats left of his meager force and go for the win.
> 
> Dont kill them, tie them up, and watch his awsome build crumble.


Yeah, exactly.
Feeding them a squad of Grey Hunters would work great, give them a banner thing (the re-roll 1s thingie), and suddenly half your casualties re-roll their failed armour saves!

Hell, even feeding them Scouts would work alright, with the Council generally having a WS of 5, the difference is minor; only the armour save is penalised, and it shouldn't matter much in the long run.


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Winterous said:


> Yeah, exactly.
> Feeding them a squad of Grey Hunters would work great, give them a banner thing (the re-roll 1s thingie), and suddenly half your casualties re-roll their failed armour saves!
> 
> Hell, even feeding them Scouts would work alright, with the Council generally having a WS of 5, the difference is minor; only the armour save is penalised, and it shouldn't matter much in the long run.


I never thought about using the banner that way, pretty neat imo.... Too bad its only for 1 phase


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Crimzzen said:


> I never thought about using the banner that way, pretty neat imo.... Too bad its only for 1 phase


Next time you're charged by Striking Scorpions, you'll appreciate it


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## Crimzzen (Jul 9, 2008)

Winterous said:


> Next time you're charged by Striking Scorpions, you'll appreciate it


Without a doubt,


It might also be great to bring this up in the Eldar jetbike thread. Makes holding them up another turn a heck of a lot easier.


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