# Chaos Sucks?



## abaddonthedespoir (Jan 28, 2008)

Hey everyone. I've been going around the forums and almost everyone is talking trash about Chaos, ever since it's been re-done. I, for one, started chaos because of the new rules. They also just got a bunch of stuff for Apocalypse, and they might be allied with deamons, but I've been hearing the they can and can't all over the place. Anyway, I'm wondering why people think Chaos sucks.


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## Revelations (Mar 17, 2008)

abaddonthedespoir said:


> Hey everyone. I've been going around the forums and almost everyone is talking trash about Chaos, ever since it's been re-done. I, for one, started chaos because of the new rules. They also just got a bunch of stuff for Apocalypse, and they might be allied with deamons, but I've been hearing the they can and can't all over the place. Anyway, I'm wondering why people think Chaos sucks.


According to the last official announcement (which I can't find for the life of me), GW has stated Chaos and Deamons are two independant forces and no rules for allying were or will be created. 

The reason most people (even me) say they suck is because they lost A LOT of flavor. They essentially became a generic Space Marine army with a few chaotic rules. There are no cult armies anymore. There are no true demons anymore. Their nifty rules are few and far between, not to mention pricey point wise. Plus you have a load of things you can't even control (Possessed and Dreadnaughts come to mind). Plus I suppose a lot of things got Nerfed through the years and this was another blow to the dead horse. 

By comparison, you can see what happened to the Orcs, what's happening with the SM and what will happen with the Dark Eldar. And then you you see what they did to Chaos and you just have to say... "W...T...F...".


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## Culler (Dec 27, 2007)

Dreadnoughts and possessed are really suboptimal units, as are lesser daemons. GW seems to have saddled them with a bunch of useless units, whereas there are usually only 1 or 2 in other codices.

Personally, I think Chaos are still competitive and still have a lot of customizability for fluff. They lack their special rules but cult units are still pretty good and make it interesting.


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## revenant13 (Feb 15, 2008)

the only thing in the chaos book that's more customizable is a khorne, nurlge, slaanesh, or tzeentch army. thats it. no more alpha legion, iron warriors, word bearers, or night lords. they really are just becoming a generic army with some "special" units here and there. so its really only helped chaos god armies and nerfed all the other legions. since most chaos players DONT play to a specific god, rather they play with a particular legion, thats why most chaos players are pissed off.


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## Janus Blackheart (Jan 24, 2008)

I wouldnt go as far as to say they suck but they did get nerfed and I agree they lost a lot of flavor. I think if any chaos player out there takes there army list and compares new rules to old rules and there list is probably a little weaker. Raptors, Oblits, Deamons, Dreadnaughts, vet skills, wargear just to name a few. I think the Cult marines are all actually better. But for those that played armies without them its time to pull them back out dust them off and put em in.


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## Bogg (Mar 2, 2008)

I had a 5000Pts Word Bearers army, I was really excited when the new Codex came out, since I back then never bother to listen for rumors and such....

It got out and i went through it, ...and just went.....hmm.....what???...well Vindicator is nice......oh! cheap as hell Raptors.......Oh cool, troops get both CCW and Bolter, frag&krak....and that was bascically it.. rest went downhill!

I played a few games,.. didnt loose, but it got boring....played a few more games....boooring...now I havnt touched em for months and months. 

SO i moved on Waaaaaagh, brings the fun back for me,,, Orkz the true Chaos.


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## NiGhTloRd (Mar 17, 2008)

I have Iron Warriors and Nightlord armies and it`s annoying because they are no longer recognised as an army as such ... so for instance the IW lost they`re ability to drop 1 fast attack (which was`nt a whole lot of use to them anyway) , and add an extra heavy choice. 
So in a lot of ways it seems to me every time the Space marines get a good beating ... they get written extra rules to make them better than all again and all others get restricted.
But on the other hand as chaos always does it adapts to win .. It can be done :biggrin:


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## Mikal Darkus (Mar 9, 2008)

Chaos doesn't SUCK! The codex DOES!... Well... not as bad as we sometime rant on about:no:

Someone new to chaos will think it's pretty good... BUT all us Chaos Vets know it was a step back

Chaos is still usable and is still a great army to use. I will always rant about having half my army rendered "unusable" in the new codex:ireful2:
( My Chaos Lord with twin powerfists is angry too:angry: )

But it's a good excuse to start a new army.


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## Purge (Mar 24, 2008)

What's wrong with the CSM codex? The fact that it represents 'renegade' chapters and does sod all to represent the Heresy legions that most people collect.

Look at it this way... I have a World Eaters army. As World Eaters they have been fighting in the name of the Lord of Skulls for 10,000 years or more. My basic troops are Berzerkers who are pretty good combat troops and also fearless. However, if I have a squad of Khorne Chosen or Terminators, supposedly the greatest warriors in any CSM army, i have to put up with them running away again. It's ridiculous. My greatest warriors run away.

They need to bring back more cult squads and more Legion specific rules. I don't want to be a 'renegade' I want to be a proper CSM, defying the Emperor and his lackeys for the better part of ten millenia.

Codex CSM Legions is needed.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

I'm rather disapointed in the fact that they lost so much flavor. Also the nerfing is kind of awkward. Like, I understand and agree with them nerfsticking iron warriors(y'all really did abuse this poor lil game), and obliterators were very rediculous. I can see why daemon bombing needed to stop. And after alot of considering, I can mildly agree with removing daemon gifts.

But why the hell did possessed need to be nerfed as much as they did? At least give us a reroll. Or the ability to buy them. They used to be "decently alright" and now they're "Neat but useless"

Also the chaos spawn, they put all these silly rules on it to make it appealing, than they make it (ten more than a terminator) points of useless...with no save.

Or generic'ing daemons so that the more daemon-oriented chaos players go out and buy a new dex and army. Which was just really a kick in the teeth.

We got units that can only be defined as "nifty" in exchange for dual-weilding basic marines and some other odds and ends.

My main issue with the dex is I can't seem to make a dedicated close combat squad that'll earn it's points back. Lately I've just been sitting back and shooting and doing just as well as when I tried melee.

Also a lack of fearless elites, disregaurding possessed.


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## ZYHAC (Mar 21, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> I'm rather disapointed in the fact that they lost so much flavor. Also the nerfing is kind of awkward. Like, I understand and agree with them nerfsticking iron warriors(y'all really did abuse this poor lil game), and obliterators were very rediculous. I can see why daemon bombing needed to stop. And after alot of considering, I can mildly agree with removing daemon gifts.
> 
> But why the hell did possessed need to be nerfed as much as they did? At least give us a reroll. Or the ability to buy them. They used to be "decently alright" and now they're "Neat but useless"
> 
> ...



Some of the codex is ok but most of it sucks. While saying that I love my IW team and yes we got the bad end of the stick. But then again everyone got a raw deal somewhere. You might not like the way IW had worked but they were one of the best teams out there.


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

Mikal Darkus said:


> Chaos doesn't SUCK! The codex DOES!... Well... not as bad as we sometime rant on about:no:
> 
> Someone new to chaos will think it's pretty good... BUT all us Chaos Vets know it was a step back


Quoted for truth - it shares many similarities with the old 3.0 codex.


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

People need to stop moaning about the Possessed, fair enough there points cost isnt great, there abilities are USEFULL! yes, i said it, usefull. 
Now stop whinging and give them a try, you'll be surprised what they can do, especially if they get fleet, rending or power weapon. Get them in combat and they can do damage.

But i agree i wasnt best pleased when they removed the rules for certain legions, IW, NL e.t.c

But im happy because my Death Guard came out fine.


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## rokassan (Jan 24, 2007)

i play Deathguard...they didnt come out fine. We lost everything the other legions lost and Plague Marines have been rendered to a troop choice for ANY Chaos army. The new codex is a souless hollow piece of shit. There are absolutely no options. I guess people who dont give a damn about fluff and options think its good. If Chaos was so overpowered and needed to be gutted why werent Chaos players winning all of the big tournaments...I believe it was Eldar and Tau who won most of those. Give me a break. It stinks I gave it a chance and it stinks. Can you win with it? Sure, but its boring.


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## Death 0F Angels (Feb 27, 2008)

This is my favorite line out of this whole thread.

The new codex is a souless hollow piece of shit.


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

rokassan said:


> i play Deathguard...they didnt come out fine. We lost everything the other legions lost and Plague Marines have been rendered to a troop choice for ANY Chaos army. The new codex is a souless hollow piece of shit. There are absolutely no options. I guess people who dont give a damn about fluff and options think its good. If Chaos was so overpowered and needed to be gutted why werent Chaos players winning all of the big tournaments...I believe it was Eldar and Tau who won most of those. Give me a break. It stinks I gave it a chance and it stinks. Can you win with it? Sure, but its boring.


If you find it boring then the answer is quite simple, either swap armies and start a new one or go about finding new options/possibilities to take.
People saying its boring are the ones who are crying about possessed and dreads been "nerfed" 

and Yeah anyone can take Plague Marines in a Chaos army as a troops choice, but it doesnt make a difference to the fact we can still field a hole a Death Guard army with more options for IoN than there was before.
Your one of the only chaos players I have heard that plays Death Guard and is dissapointed in how they've turned out.
Like i said, if there not working for you, try a different army, or try taking a variety of units. You'd be surprised in what a squad of possessed can do.


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## Purge (Mar 24, 2008)

Codex CSM isn't boring by any means. You can make some really good, fun lists with it. The problem is that it has no direction. Rokassan was correct when he called it 'soulless'...it really is. They should have called it Codex CSM Renegades or Codex Black legion tbh. Most of the original Legions cannot be represented by the list in this book, particularly the Legions that dedicated themselves to one God (1k Sons, World Eaters, Death Guard, Emperors Children). There are no cult elite, fast attack or heavy support choices. Hopefully most, if not all, of the Legions will get WD articles or a seperate Codex. Hopefully...


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## KharnTheBetrayer86 (Feb 26, 2008)

Chaos doesn't suck by any means. The rulebook just reads like a space marine supplement list rather than a valid army in its own right.

I was hoping for more work on the whole "as a chaos space marine gains more prestige his god reward him with greater gifts" angle. Terminators with demonic gifts would have been fun, different and massively characterful.

Instead the Chaos lord loses the ability to take demonic gifts and demonic weapons have lost all flavour.

The only reasons to collect a chaos marine army over a space marine army are the defilers, possessed and obliterators. Outside of those few choices (two of which have been degraded massively. Possessed used to get three rolls on that mutation table, not one) Space marines have it all and more with their various factions. And venerable dread's, land speeders, multimelta's, plasma cannons with infantry, veteran skills and traits.

Personally, i'm switching to demons and using my old berzerkers as Bloodletters.


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## rokassan (Jan 24, 2007)

The codex is boring Foulacy. Possessed suck, you pay a premium price for a unit that you have no idea what its capable of until you put it on the board. Dreadnaughts can kill your own troops and have almost no upgrades...no sonic weapons if your an Emperors Children player for example. Theres no demon gifts, vet skills and war gear is almost nothing. All god specific items and gifts are nonexistent. And they got rid of god specific demons...how is this better? Instead of making snide remarks about switching my army give me your reasons for your view. Instead of attacking people who's opinion differs from yours present your point of view.
Ive notice that everyone who thinks the codex is good feel they need to immediately attack those of us who dont agree and state our reasons. All im saying is Chaos has lost its flavor, but as the rumor mill grinds it seems GW is trying to rectify this...with the deoman codex and future legion specific codices. Playing is enjoyable still and Ill never quit playing my Deathguard...I put way to much time and effort into painting them. So now lets discuss the reasons why we feel the way we do about this tomb.


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## Eetion (Mar 19, 2008)

I like the possessed, I love the random element to them, feels somehow more appropriate. Especially when 5 of my possessed slapped a 7 man harlequin squad after getting feel no pain.

However, what irks me the most... Is that a Chaos Lord is fearless, and unless you want to put him in a cult troop or run him solo, then he cant make effective use of it.


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

They sould be as good as marines but they are better this is unfair in my opinon. As well I hate abaddon he is just unfair. I think a grand master should be able to take him out, but he can not, because he can not be killed out right.


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## murdock129 (Apr 3, 2008)

Chaos has lost a lot of personality so now my Lord of Change is no different to a Bloodthirster but still i love playing as chaos


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## Sinizter (Dec 10, 2007)

Well I currently run a Bile army under the new codex which has done well and is a lot of fun. However I understand a lot of people's problems but looking back at the old codex tournament lists you see "Death Guard, Death Guard, Death Guard, Iron Warriors, Iron Warriors, ad infinitum.

I think in my time playing 40K with the old codex all I ever saw was Death Guard, Iron Warriors, and Alpha Legion.


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## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

foulacy said:


> People need to stop moaning about the Possessed, fair enough there points cost isnt great, there abilities are USEFULL! yes, i said it, usefull.
> Now stop whinging and give them a try, you'll be surprised what they can do, especially if they get fleet, rending or power weapon. Get them in combat and they can do damage.
> 
> But i agree i wasnt best pleased when they removed the rules for certain legions, IW, NL e.t.c
> ...


Oh boy, I can save four points a guy to get a terminator with one more S and a worse save.(power weapons)
The problem is they -can- deal a decent amount of damage, but just aren't worth the cost. I usually always try to get at least five in a list for flavour, but time and again I've been disapointed paying premium for a squad that might just get a free move at the beggining of the game.
Also the fact that they can't shoot and get JUST AS MANY attacks as a basic marine further wedges them in the "Way too damn expensive to use" listing.

And they might have useful abilities, but we have better units that get them reliably. And how did a possessed squad slap a harlesquad? FNP doesn't help rending does it?


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## pyroanarchist (Feb 29, 2008)

I think the new codex is a very good codex if specific legion codex's will be released later. If this is it, and all that chaos gets, it is souless. Its a very effective codex, you can play and win, with many options and variations to the armies. You can't field a specific legion the way you would like to though. I really miss my World Eaters special rules. Berzerkers are better according to math hammer stats, but not near as good as a whole IMO. They get shot up crossing the field more without fleet, they don't have the Khornate chain axes rule anymore, and have a completely different feel to them. Running pure legion style armies aren't as effective, or as fun and fluffy as they used to be, so some of us older players have some issues with the new codex. When you step back and take it as is, its not a bad codex. Its very effective, versatile, and can be very fun to play. I really do hope GW is planning on making some legion specific codex's though, preferably starting with IW, NL, AL, and WB.


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## Purge (Mar 24, 2008)

pyroanarchist said:


> I think the new codex is a very good codex if specific legion codex's will be released later. If this is it, and all that chaos gets, it is souless. Its a very effective codex, you can play and win, with many options and variations to the armies. You can't field a specific legion the way you would like to though. I really miss my World Eaters special rules. Berzerkers are better according to math hammer stats, but not near as good as a whole IMO. They get shot up crossing the field more without fleet, they don't have the Khornate chain axes rule anymore, and have a completely different feel to them. Running pure legion style armies aren't as effective, or as fun and fluffy as they used to be, so some of us older players have some issues with the new codex. When you step back and take it as is, its not a bad codex. Its very effective, versatile, and can be very fun to play. I really do hope GW is planning on making some legion specific codex's though, preferably starting with IW, NL, AL, and WB.



Agreed. You're bang on with the Berzerkers...better but not as good is a good way of putting it. Anyway, I agree, apart from one small detail...I think they need to start with the cult legions first... World Eaters preferably!


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## abaddonthedespoir (Jan 28, 2008)

rokassan said:


> The codex is boring Foulacy. Possessed suck, you pay a premium price for a unit that you have no idea what its capable of until you put it on the board. Dreadnaughts can kill your own troops and have almost no upgrades...no sonic weapons if your an Emperors Children player for example. Theres no demon gifts, vet skills and war gear is almost nothing. All god specific items and gifts are nonexistent. And they got rid of god specific demons...how is this better? Instead of making snide remarks about switching my army give me your reasons for your view. Instead of attacking people who's opinion differs from yours present your point of view.
> Ive notice that everyone who thinks the codex is good feel they need to immediately attack those of us who dont agree and state our reasons. All im saying is Chaos has lost its flavor, but as the rumor mill grinds it seems GW is trying to rectify this...with the deoman codex and future legion specific codices. Playing is enjoyable still and Ill never quit playing my Deathguard...I put way to much time and effort into painting them. So now lets discuss the reasons why we feel the way we do about this tomb.


There are sonic weps. What are you talking about.


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## Lucius Vane (Jan 21, 2008)

Not on Dreads there aren't. Read more carefully and you'll see what he's saying.

I'm with pyroanarchist on this codex. But I'd also rather see a chaos god legion codex first, if only because we might get god specific demons back.


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## Bogg (Mar 2, 2008)

Green Knight said:


> They sould be as good as marines but they are better this is unfair in my opinon. As well I hate abaddon he is just unfair. I think a grand master should be able to take him out, but he can not, because he can not be killed out right.


Hahaha, A grand master to take out Abbadon, now that is just laughable

Abbadon has been around when the Horus was killed, he must have been in thounsands of battles, lived for 10000 years, how the hell can a grandmaster stand a chance against him? It would be like a swordfighting with a 5 year old kid, and eatin popcorn while at it

Abbadabbadoobadon!!!!!!!!!!!


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## EvgO (Dec 23, 2007)

Well, can't say much, because i'm a new codex convert - seen the previous a few times and being a noob didn't realize the pro's and con's.

Can't complain about the fluff, though. I don't feel constrainded by the fact, that my legion doesn't get some specific legion rule, because of being a heresy legion (while a renegage of a later stage would not get any extra rules).

Heard smth about legion-specific and god-specific codexes..White Dwarf perhaps?


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## Lord Pestilice (Jan 21, 2008)

Im disappointed most with some of the rules variations taken out. My friend thinks Im just pissed that Chaos isnt overpowered anymore. But I have to argue that my Night Lords with Night Vision is hardly overpowering.


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## cool_conoly (Mar 29, 2008)

Ok having played the game for long enough to remember back to when the chaos codex was in the rulebook......MAN IM OLD....i have to say I am somehwat dissapointed with the HUGE TITAN SIZED NERF GUN that GW used on chaos, however in saying that I think the 3.5 edition codex was overdone a bit. I used to love rubbing it my mates faces that we had a full page 4 column armoury. Chaos do need a large armoury and alot of cult specific items but it was just a tad on the extreme side. I personally felt that chaos were more customizable than a tyranid hive fleet, which was great and spawned some of the most individual armies I think 40k has ever seen. So in regards to chaos sucking, we lost alot of individuality, and didnt really gain anything, but we far from suck. I would also like to see a Codex: Chaos Legions all in one book as a supplement like codex dark angels and alike.....


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## Apoctis (Feb 14, 2008)

Well I know chaos was nerfed but GW will probably get the hint and redo it better for next year just remember GW nerfes a lot of races and this has caused hate but it is a learning experience and when better rules come out chaos players will be unstobable because they are so used to playing with awful rules that it will be ultimate freedom.


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## rokassan (Jan 24, 2007)

Abaddon I was referring to Dreadnaughts. I know there are Noise Marines. In the end I just enjoyed the options and flavor of the old book.


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## Vanchet (Feb 28, 2008)

I don't dislike the new codex only that I miss the other legions but it does help in a way that some daemon princes aren't given silly equipment (like bionics.......how the hell is that possible?)


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

Purge said:


> Codex CSM isn't boring by any means. You can make some really good, fun lists with it. The problem is that it has no direction. Rokassan was correct when he called it 'soulless'...it really is. They should have called it Codex CSM Renegades or Codex Black legion tbh.


So the name of the book would change how you and apparently most other chaos whiners, would feel about the book? Seriously? If they had called it Codex Black Legion you would have thought it was a good codex? Does anyone else see the irony here?



Purge said:


> Most of the original Legions cannot be represented by the list in this book, particularly the Legions that dedicated themselves to one God (1k Sons, World Eaters, Death Guard, Emperors Children). There are no cult elite, fast attack or heavy support choices. Hopefully most, if not all, of the Legions will get WD articles or a seperate Codex. Hopefully...


Again, because they don't have 'special' rules they aren't cult choices? Not even when you give them the appropriate Icon? They can't, in a fluffy manner, represent the new warriors being brought into the Legion at all?


Seriously, I am a Chaos player and have been since day one in this hobby. More to the point, I am a Thousand Sons player and I don't understand why the lot of you bitch so much about this codex. You say I can't recreate my old legion, well lemme see:

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch - check, only missing the deamon weapon
2-4 squads of Thousand Sons in rhinos with psychic champs - check
Terminators - check, minus a wound
Defiler - check
Predator - check
Land Raider - check
Dreadnought - check
Possessed - check
Chosen - check


GASP!!!!! OMG!!! 

I can take all the units I could use before. Are they the same as before? No, but then quite a few of them are FAR more useful now aren't they? In the 3.5 codex the Chosen and Possessed were so bloody expensive they never saw table use, as were Rubric Terms (sorry but they were). The whole '2 wounds' that they had was FUCKING USELESS and they were not worth their points. To sum it up they were the most limited, shitty Legion in the book. 

Now, my basic troops are hard as nails, my terms have a 4 plus save, there are actually a few decent spells in the book for a decent cost, I can take troops with meltas and plasma and heavy weapons unlike before, not to mention Raptors, Bikes, Havocs, Obliterators, and... well EVERYTHING IN THE FUCKING CODEX!!!

Yeah we lost Vet Skills and the Armoury. Yes we lost cult daemons. And in return we gained a book that leads to more varied armies overall, not just in the wargear choice. IW players, I am sorry but I don't care that your cheese list got nailed, after all it is very likely BECAUSE of that list that the IW lost their 'special' rules, same as the daemonbomb. I am sorry but I have no sympathy for anyone who lost those armies and now have to think to play the game instead of just making the most ridiculous and impossible to stop netlist they can find.


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## Green Knight (Feb 25, 2008)

Why did they take out combat drugs for slanesh?


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## foulacy (Nov 24, 2007)

rokassan said:


> The codex is boring Foulacy. Possessed suck, you pay a premium price for a unit that you have no idea what its capable of until you put it on the board. Dreadnaughts can kill your own troops and have almost no upgrades...no sonic weapons if your an Emperors Children player for example. Theres no demon gifts, vet skills and war gear is almost nothing. All god specific items and gifts are nonexistent. And they got rid of god specific demons...how is this better? Instead of making snide remarks about switching my army give me your reasons for your view. Instead of attacking people who's opinion differs from yours present your point of view.
> Ive notice that everyone who thinks the codex is good feel they need to immediately attack those of us who dont agree and state our reasons. All im saying is Chaos has lost its flavor, but as the rumor mill grinds it seems GW is trying to rectify this...with the deoman codex and future legion specific codices. Playing is enjoyable still and Ill never quit playing my Deathguard...I put way to much time and effort into painting them. So now lets discuss the reasons why we feel the way we do about this tomb.



Step back and chill out, i was'nt "attacking" nobody i was just giving you possibilities.

Also, i do agree with you, the last codex was better, they have took alot out, the cult specifics does suck. It does'nt mean the Death Guard came out shit, it just means the codex makes 'em look shit.

By all means critic the possessed and dread, I'll be the first to agree 'coz its happened to me a few times, that a Twin Linked Las Cannon Shot to a freindly unit isnt nice, But a strength ten combat monster with a DCCW weapon is capable of destruction (thats if hes not to busy laughing and taking pot shots at my own guys)

And possessed, although you dont know what your getting, all options are good. Points are steap, yes, but its all fun and games.

My remark to chaning armys may of looked about cruel, but i did'nt mean it in a sadistic way lol.
It's good to see a TRUE DG player... Peace:victory:


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## pyroanarchist (Feb 29, 2008)

Purge said:


> Agreed. You're bang on with the Berzerkers...better but not as good is a good way of putting it. Anyway, I agree, apart from one small detail...I think they need to start with the cult legions first... World Eaters preferably!


I can't agree here. I would love to see something to change the God-specific Legions, but I think an errata could handle it, or a supplement. Just add the God specific daemons and we're good, maybe a couple little quirks, but not much needed. I can still run my WE army. Some of the outer Legions were messed up bad.

Take NL for example. Any Night Lords player who used the old codex probably has a large amount of Raptors and Bikes, some of which he can't use anymore because of FoC limitations, and very little heavy support. What about AL. What happened to cultists? Did they just disappear from the 40k universe entirely? Did Alpha Legion just change their entire tactics overnight and don't make use of them anymore? Any Alpha Legion army from the old dex doesn't play like Alpha Legion at all anymore.

I can run my WE list just like I used to minus the Bloodletters. It plays a little different and I need to put the zerkers in Rhino's, but its still a WE army and feels like a WE army. I know the same to be true with Death Guard and Emperor's Children. Almost the same, just a few less options (spec weaps on dreads and the such). 1k sons may even only benefit from the new codex. I really do miss some of the nifty 'extras' I used to have, but I can deal with it and have the army I want play the same as it used to.

IW, NL, AL, and WB can't. A lot of people considered IW to be unbalanced before, but I never had a game that was anything short of a challenge against them. I won some, I lost some, didn't seem that overpowered to me. Loosing fast attack for extra heavy's wasn't that hard to play against. I never played WB, but I know the crapstorm that is a daemon bomb, and I don't think it was that bad to deal with. I can see how some armies would have a huge problem facing it, so maybe it needs changed, but it needs to still exist. I would love to see the outer legions get either a supplement that covers them all, or individual codex's, to incorporate the way that legion fights into 40k again. I think those players are the ones that got screwed on the new codex personally.


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## abaddonthedespoir (Jan 28, 2008)

Lucius Vane said:


> Not on Dreads there aren't. Read more carefully and you'll see what he's saying.
> 
> I'm with pyroanarchist on this codex. But I'd also rather see a chaos god legion codex first, if only because we might get god specific demons back.


There are sonic weps on dreads and predators in Apocalypse at the very least.


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## annhwi (Dec 21, 2007)

I would also say that Chaos doesn't suck. But the recent Codex... is a HUGE step in the wrong direction. I might as well play Space Marines now... since they now have all the tactical flexibility that I used to enjoy in Chaos. (Divergent Chapters are now the new "overpowering" factor for SM. All things being equal, which they effectively now are) There is also a point to be made for the chaos individuality... while I am certain that my Iron Warriors would be looked at initially as... "oh no not ANOTHER IW list", I seriously doubt that I played a typical IW list. Yes, I did use the IW rules. Yes, I fielded 4 Heavies... (but I bet very few fielded a dread as one of them). Yes, I fielded Oblits... (but never more than 5 and they NEVER just stood in a firing line with goon marines sitting in front taking the bullets for them). Thats the majority of the complaints I've heard about IW... and likely why the Oblits are nerfus exterminatus (as far as I'm concerned)

Now I'll be the first to admit that certain troop choices got pretty frickin cool. (1K sons and Death Guard come to mind) and I've had no choice to adapt to the new dex... the dread stuck around as an elite (my only elite as a matter of fact, although I may at some point include chosen). And since the dread moved to elite the 3 other HS choices stuck where they were. (2 Preds, and the Basilisk switched to a Vindicator)

I also have had to disband my Lieutenant training school, since they no longer exist and that has had more of an impact on how I play than anything else they have done. Now my "Lord" (what a farce) has to sit in a can waiting for his opportunity (hoping that the can doesn't become a crater). What a frickin waste of points.

There is also a huge hit in the fluff department... due to the lack of flexibility inherent in the new dex. I am sorely dissappointed with the new dex. And it shows in how many games I have played with Chaos since then (maybe half a dozen tops).

There may be some solice (sp?) in the 5th ed. rules, but I wouldn't count on it. My understanding is that Chaos was one of the first Codices written with the 5th ed. rules in mind. Which may explain some of the simplicity... but I cannot be certain.

ok...I've ranted long enough.


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

A codex which has 6 Special Characters, 2 of which are among the most powerful in the game and all of which have 0 points requirement, Icons which allow up to 6 different customizations of the majority of your army, Daemons which don't count against your FOC and can be taken in literally unlimited numbers, Heavy Support squads which can take 4 special weapons, Elite squads which can infiltrate and take up to 5 special weapons, a Str8 battle cannon, and more troop options than any other army in the game with your Cult/Icon troop options (total of 10 troop choices), and nearly every model in the army comes with both a long range bolter AND bolt pistol plus CCW, and not to mention you have 35 pt Rhinos. Yeah this army has no customizability or flexibility. 

I will say that I hate the murder that GW did to the fluff background of Chaos by killing Legion armies and essentially turning Chaos Marines codex into what is really Renegade Marines. But anyone who complains that this codex isnt powerful enough needs to be beaten to death with every other codex and CRB that exists. This is hands down the MOST POWERFUL codex available right now. 

Unlike space marines which have draw backs to every benefit they take there are 0 draw backs in this codex. No penalties for anything. You want to field Abaddon and Ahrimman as well as 2 squads of Death Guard with 2 meltas a piece, led by 3 squads of Chosen with 5 meltas apiece, as well as 2 squads of Havocs which have 4 meltas in under 1500pts. No problem. You even have enough extra points to upgrade a few champions and throw in at least 1 power weapon. That gives you 27 Meltas and 2 of the most powerful characters in for less than 1500pts. Every model has 2 attacks in combat minimum, 15 Infiltrating Meltas, 10 Toughness 5/FNP/Fearless Death Guard, and nice back up of 8 Meltas. 

OR if thats not your cup of tea then try this..

Ahrimman leading 3 squads of Thousand Sons mounted in Rhinos (3 Sorcerers w/ either Wind of Chaos or Bolt of Change depending on your tastes and 27 Thousand Sons) back up by 18 Daemons split into either 2 or 3 packs. How bout that 27 Rapid Firing AP3 Bolters? Want to kill them with Meltas or Plasmas?? SOrry they have 4+ Invuls! Get them in HtH well it sucks to be you cause now your facing Force Weapons, Invul Saves, and the backing some nice friendly Daemons.

The only place people have to complain about this book is the fluff.


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## abaddonthedespoir (Jan 28, 2008)

Bishop120, that is EXACTLY the way I see it. They killed it fluff-wise, but it made the whole thing more flexible, and if people are complaining about the fluff, then read the old codex. The only thing I wish we had back, but ain't moaning about it completely, is indirect fire.


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## CATzeentch (Dec 25, 2007)

If you think the Chaos codex is cheesy, look at the daemons...HOLY FUCK!


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## rokassan (Jan 24, 2007)

foulacy said:


> Step back and chill out, i was'nt "attacking" nobody i was just giving you possibilities.
> 
> Also, i do agree with you, the last codex was better, they have took alot out, the cult specifics does suck. It does'nt mean the Death Guard came out shit, it just means the codex makes 'em look shit.
> 
> ...



No problem Foulacy, Im just making a point. I have over 3000 points of Deathguard all painted. I just miss the options and personality of the old codex. This new codex is just too generic. I like tooling my troops how I want them tooled. Cant do that anymore. Oh yeah guys Ive sen the new Demon codex...the real one, its good. Nurgle is slow as hell and have low initiative...I guess GW is banking on FnP for making up for slow low initiative assault troops. All Nurgle Demons have the Slow and purposeful rule and I havent seen rules in the book for using the codex with Chaos Marines. If you any questions about the book Ill be more than glad to answer them ,Again Im not speculating Ive seen the real print Demon Codex...both of them.


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

> The only place people have to complain about this book is the fluff.



That is pretty much how I see it. The other thing that many bitch about is the inability to tool out the IC's and champs into uber characters as well. 



> I just miss the options and personality of the old codex. This new codex is just too generic.


This is something I don't get and would really like an explanation for. Generic how? Aside from the daemons as that is fairly obvious. I could agree with this statement only if all armies looked the same regardless of what you tried, similar to SM's imho. The unit options and such in this codex allow for so much diversity in armies that I just don't get the whole 'it's too generic' complaint. Does there really have to be super special rules in the book for it not to be generic?


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## Eneishi (Mar 6, 2008)

chaos is really too cheap.

too easy. Skilled people would probably look for an army that takes talent to use.


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## MrPickles (Feb 25, 2008)

http://gallery.blackfang.net/index.php?n=Articles.HateCSM

Hello everybody, as you may have guessed, I'm here to talk to you about the new Codex: Chaos Space Marines. First, let me just say what we're all thinking anyway: It sucks. Don`t let rational arguments fool you - anyone who doesn't think it sucks is a fanboy who clearly has no idea what he's talking about. And we don't like fanboys, do we? >( 

The Codex sucks. That is a fact. It is a fact because I said so. I`ve been playing Chaos for over 40 years, so I know what I`m talking about. I've never felt so shafted. Can you imagine there are changes in this Codex? Nothing has ever changed before. I'm a veteran and I can tell you that no previous Codex, not even the get-you-by list in 3rd edition, forced me to change the way I play my army. This one does. 

First off, it`s just Loyalists with spikes. I can't see any reason why Chaos Space Marines should look or function anything like loyalist Space Marines. Anyone who's ever read any fluff on the subject knows that the two are completely seperate species that have evolved on opposite sides of the galaxy and hadn`t even met before the 13th Black Crusade. They should have nothing in common! 

For some reason, the Codex focuses on Renegade Chapters. There must be near two dozen new names and colour schemes in the book, and this is bad. GW should have known that what we really need is another rehash of the Traitor Legions that have always been the focus of Chaos and everybody knows everything about already. I`m appalled and outraged that there is something new in the Codex, that the universe of our favorite game was expanded upon, when a copy/paste job of the Legion fluff would have been just fine. What were they thinking? 

Ah, the Legions. Sadly, they don't exist anymore. There is no way to make a Legion army, because they have no special rules. And you can`t have an army with no special rules, can you? That would be just make-believe, and we're here for the cold, hard facts. 

Let`s take Alpha Legion, for example. It doesn`t exist. Sure, you can paint your army in AL colours, write some fluff, use a variety of tactics... but that doesn`t makes it Alpha Legion. Don't be fooled by the fluffmongers! Alpha Legion isn't about being the youngest child trying to prove himself. It isn`t about outsmarting the enemy. It isn`t about being the best, being self-sufficient and independent. Hah! What Alpha Legion is really about is deploying halfway up the table with 6-pt models that hit as hard as Space Marines on the charge. That's what`s Alpha Legion is really about and you know it! In fact, anyone who didn't play that way in the old Codex was never playing Alpha Legion at all! There is no other way to play it! 

Likewise, Emperor`s Children aren't about the snazzy colour scheme, or the tragic perversion of the struggle to perfect themselves in mind, body and soul. They`re about the extra bolter shot and the teleporting Genestealers. An army without these can not be Emperor's Children, regardless of how it looks. If your opponent deploys pink Chaos Marines and claims he`s playing Emperor's Children, feel free to laugh at the stupid fool. His beautifully converted terminators can`t fire that third bolter shot? Emperor's Children my arse! 

I hope you get the idea. Similar examples could be found for all the Legions. It doesn't matter what kind of theme you have, you'll know in your heart they they're really just Renegades, or, at best, Black Legion. 

Don`t get me wrong. I'm not complaining about my army becoming less powerful. This is about fluff. You can`t have a fluffy Emperor's Children army without that third bolter shot, or daemons that kill anything on a 6 to hit. You can`t! It's all about fluff! 

And did I mention that the Codex doesn`t feel chaotic at all? Everything is just so organized and predictable. Completely uninteresting. 

Now the units. First of all, why would anyone ever take Chaos Spawn, Dreadnoughts, or Possessed? They are just too random and unpredictable. What were they thinking? 

Let's not mention the severe lack of upgrades. Like everybody else, I always took Mutation and Strength, and now they're gone. This reduces variety. If there is no single best combination of options, all armies will look the same! 

What can we do? I for one will post this message on every thread that even remotely mentions anything about Chaos, new or old. I will rabidly defend my facts and call anyone who disagrees with me a fanboy. Then I'll take my old 3.5ed Codex and go play my real Iron Warriors (you can tell by the 4th Heavy Support) against my friend's 3rd ed. Starcannon Army of Doom. Fair is fair, right?


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## loyalist42 (Sep 7, 2007)

well, to be fair, then, there's been a pantload of talk about legion-specific codices that seems to be based upon fact...so maybe you'll get your iron warriors back?


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

> http://gallery.blackfang.net/index.php?n=Articles.HateCSM


As inane as some of the worst anti-codex rants I've seen.
Guess that's the other side of the spectrum.


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## rokassan (Jan 24, 2007)

Mr Pickles took quotes from a bunch of cabbages and posted them here to make people who dont care for the new codex look like morons. Again as I said why do the guys who like the codex feel the need to bash those of us who dont? I havent insulted anyone for liking the book. I just dont like the fact that they pretty much eliminated all of the wargear, vet skills,gifts and demon specific items.Those "little" insignificant rules for the Traitor legions made them unique. Alpha legion had cultists and infiltrate...it was little things like that that I and many others enjoyed. If I wanted to tool a squad of chaos marines to kill armored vehicles Id give them the tank hunter skill, if I wanted to make my squad better in hand to hand give them furious charge.Id give my Aspiring champ or Demon prince Demonic visage if I wanted them to be able to break a squad easier. Why is that so hard to comprehend... Whether you agree or not. No lets post comments made by people who werent thinking about what they were saying...good call. Again Chaos is tough, theyer just very generic.


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## Bishop120 (Nov 7, 2007)

I am very interested in seeing how they are going to do this "Daemon Codex". Its going to be very hard for them to do it right and not screw over Chaos.

Personally I would have rathered they broke up the Chaos Codex into different Codices kinda like the Imperium has Guard, Marines, DH, WH, and all the little Marine Chapters. I think they have and are though... IF you think about it the Chaos Marines could represent Codex Space Marines, Codex Daemons the opposite of Daemon Hunters, If they ever make a LaTD it would be the opposite of Imp Guard, and then a codex for each Legion to mirror the codices for the individual Space Marine chapters (Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels...)


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## rokassan (Jan 24, 2007)

Ive seen the codex...the real one. Its good. It has all of the demons and more. I havent seen any rules for allies. I dont think there are any. I can answer any questions you have about the codex. Again Im not speculating, Ive seen the real printed codex for Fantasy and 40k.


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## daugustine (Mar 6, 2008)

It's funny how many "Chaos" players complain about randomness. Two suggestions - first is play with the old codex. Other than offical games it doesn't really matter. Hell, I still play 2nd edition every now and then. Second, if you don't want randomness in your army use the Space Marine Codex.


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## rokassan (Jan 24, 2007)

Its not about randomness...its about uselessness.


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## abaddonthedespoir (Jan 28, 2008)

Sadly deamons and Chaos can't ally... but I'm going to do it anyway. No, but in apocalypse it doesn't matter.


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## vindur (Apr 1, 2008)

Wraithlord try re-build your army with an emperor's children list

Lord with drugs and sonic weapons NO
termies with sonic weapons NO
dread with sonic weapons NO
Havocs with sonic weapons NO
deamonettes NO

Also at gealcon in Ireland this year Jervis Johnson apologised for the chaos codex and says at least God specific legion ones will be done in the future


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## blitz451 (Apr 4, 2008)

Getting back in to 40k I wanted to make a Chaos army and I decided on the Alpha Legion based largely on the look and the fluff. However upon reading the Codex i've come to realize that my choice of legion is largely if not entirely irrelevant. There is no real way of making my army any different from other chaos armies in a way that would fit with the history of the legion.

Not that I think they would be ineffective, in fact I feel I could make a very capable army with the codex however nothing about it would feel like it was my own.


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

Pretty much. They've been dumbing 40k down for years now, though, so I've gotten to the point lately where I just sort of deal with it. Part of alleviating the stupidity of the Chaos Space Marine codex comes with Apocalypse, which we play excessively around here. Mostly, though, the consensus here seems to be that unless you're just messing around with the models, which are excellent, it's easier to just sort of pretend that the Chaos Space Marines are busy in the Eye of Terror doing whatever it is they're doing (licking their wounds from the stalemate at Cadia and feeding those who are not true champions of the Dark Gods, i.e. not from the Nine Legions) and we won't see them on the table until they get revisited in three years or so.

I'm bored as hell, so I kind of have to play devil's advocate here. The positive things about the Chaos codex are that it's stupidly easy to understand. You can be a retarded chimp and make a decent army in game terms with it. The format itself is good-- they devote an entire page to each unit's fluff, and they show more different color scheme ideas in there than anywhere else. Oh, and the CSM codex is good for toilet reading. :laugh:

On Generic Daemons-- they're a double-edged sword. On one hand, you're free to model them however you like, so if you're so inclined to use Privateer Press models (admittedly, some of the Trollbloods are excellent sculpts, imo) or Reaper models (let's face it, they've got some great looking daemon princes that could be generic Greater Daemons) you're free to do so. That's obviously not the intent of GW, but it's certainly the result. However, they're terribly dry, and lesser daemons really aren't worth the points. A single, summoned greater daemon, however, is just a cheap monster with an Avatar of Khaine's stat-line, though, so I'm sort of undecided on whether it's worthwhile or not.

It'd have been helpful if they'd bothered putting an allies rules set in the Daemon codex, but I actually think the daemons are going to be fine on their own. They look really broken on paper, but you have plenty of time to rapid-fire the bejesus out of them, and the army has, for the most part, 5+ invulnerable saves and nothing more. At least there'll be another army that's a dime a dozen now besides Space Marines and CSM, since no one in their right mind would put daemons on round bases since you can use the exact same army, almost point for point, in both games. People who play both will, I'm sure, be bringing daemons to the field with increasing regularity. Besides, in fantasy, Daemonic Legion armies are horrifically overplayed, and now those players can just take their army and pit it against 40k armies without really changing much, or buying anything new except the Codex. Kind of clever on the part of GW, I think.


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