# Pre Heresy Primarchs vs Current Abaddon the Despoiler



## The_Reaper (Apr 22, 2012)

This question has probably been discussed many times before but I have not found a thread that particularly talks in depths about this anywhere. So I was just wondering and my question is Who do you think will win if the current 40k Abaddon were to fight a Pre Heresy Primarch in single hand combat (theoretically)? Also how or why would they win?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Yes they would win, they're Primarchs

How? They're Primarchs.

Why?......They're.....Primarchs.

I know some people will invariably go with Abaddon, citing his favour of the gods etc, but personally I just don't see it. I see him getting crushed. Horribly.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

I say the primarch will win but it won't be an easy win. I wonder if Abaddon is the same strength as that of a blood thirster or stronger. I think abaddon sword would be a problem and might be the great equalize between the primarch and abaddon.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

What AoB said


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Have we seen Abby really in action since he's gotten his marks and gear together?


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## Rapperport (Dec 27, 2009)

If Primarchs can crush Greater Daemons and Avatars, then they can beat even a Chaos enhanced Abaddon  IMO


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## Septok (Jan 21, 2012)

hailene said:


> Have we seen Abby really in action since he's gotten his marks and gear together?


Time to answer fluff with cruch: sort of. We have his stats at the current point in the 40K timeline and Primarch stats thanks to FW, which are supposed to be representative of their ability on the battlefield. The Primarch stats are invariably better. Even then, the Daemon Primarch are bound to be much, much stronger than Heresy-Era Primarchs, which were supposed to be second only to the Emperor.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

I'd be a bit iffy on those stats. The Primarchs are probably not tournament compilable, whereas Abby is.

Even if Abby is stronger than a daemon Primarch, he wouldn't be on TT for balance reasons.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

If the Murder Sword in the new CSM Codex is the anatheme that was used to lay Horus low in the hands of a mere human, think what Abaddon could do against a Primarch with Drach'Nyen _and_ the Talon of Horus. And if Kor Phaeron can overcome Guilliman...

Nah, a Primarch would reliably win. Ezzy Abby could put up a good fight, I'm sure, and I imagine there are specialized circumstances under which he could win (and I doubt he would confront a Primarch under anything but specialized Primarchs, if he has any say in the matter), but I still think he'd lose far more often than not in the multiverse of possible Abby-vs-Primarch fights.


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## Deneris (Jul 23, 2008)

There's a thought; due to some quirk/machination of a bored Chaos deity, "current" Abaddon meets Pre-Heresy Horus. Beyond a rather amusing "Epic Rap Battles of History" episode that it would make, I still see "good" Horus laying a smack-down on Abby...


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

A Primarch would crush Abaddon so horribly that there would be nothing left to feed to Russ afterwards.


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## renaldoty (Dec 7, 2012)

Well, there's another occurence of a primarch not beating a lesser being in the Lion vs Luther fight, Lion didn't win either. I don't think the fight would be that one-sided, would be a close one at worst!


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## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

Renal good point _*but*_ for the fact that Luther being pumped by the four gods of chaos for that fight.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

And the Lion was holding back.


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## spanner94ezekiel (Jan 6, 2011)

More to the point, the Lion beat the snot out of Luther, but then hesitated to lay the final blow which the corrupted Luther used to his advantage.


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## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

But he couldn't land the final blow thus the gods were cheated again and destroyed Caliban and scattering the Fallen.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

let's not pretend the guilliman/kor-phaeron fight never happened...there's also horus' encounter with temba


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Horus fight was less against Temba and more against the Anathema, and Temba wasn't even remotely human at that point. Horus had inflicted numerous killing blows by that point, or what should have been killing blows. All the while pretty blinded by the treachery of Temba and what he had become. But again, fighting the Anathema more than Temba. He also won anyway, sure he got poisoned/corrupted by the Anathema, but he still won the fight.

As for Kor Phaeron and Guilliman. Guilliman had just been fighting in the void for a long time, helmetless I might add, It's pretty much stated that he's not exactly fighting fit. And perhaps Phaeron might have been able to kill him if he'd taken the chance, but then Guilliman might have stopped in and ripped his heart out anyway. Regardless Guilliman won the fight, despite not being at full strength.


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## kujwa (Dec 19, 2012)

being fairly new to the hobby, just started playing 1.5yrs ago, but have been reading novels for 4-5 years i've always wondered why the demon primarchs allow abaddon to rule? i'm a tyranid player so i haven't gotten to too many other codex yet but if someone has any suggestions or directions they'd point me to find out some of the chaos fluff it'd be greatly appreciated. thanks


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## The Meddler (Sep 25, 2010)

kujwa said:


> being fairly new to the hobby, just started playing 1.5yrs ago, but have been reading novels for 4-5 years i've always wondered why the demon primarchs allow abaddon to rule? i'm a tyranid player so i haven't gotten to too many other codex yet but if someone has any suggestions or directions they'd point me to find out some of the chaos fluff it'd be greatly appreciated. thanks


From what I can remember; Curze and Horus are dead, Lorgar, Perturabo and Magnus are sulking (although Magnus did attack Fenris), Angron is pretty much doing whatever he wants, and I have no idea what Mortarion, Fulgrim and Alpharius/Omega are doing (I know Mortarion had that episode with Draigo, but apart from that:scratchhead.

Hope this helps


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

kujwa said:


> being fairly new to the hobby, just started playing 1.5yrs ago, but have been reading novels for 4-5 years i've always wondered why the demon primarchs allow abaddon to rule? i'm a tyranid player so i haven't gotten to too many other codex yet but if someone has any suggestions or directions they'd point me to find out some of the chaos fluff it'd be greatly appreciated. thanks


Being daemons themselves now, they start losing power the very moment they leave the Eye, having to make vast sacrifices and raise chaotic monuments to the gods to keep their physical form. Where as Abaddon is under no such limitations. When Angron attacked Armageddon, he had to ritually sacrifices countless lives and build monuments and a monolith to keep his power strong, but even then it wasn't enough and he was eventually banished by Brother-Captain Aurellian of the Grey Knights for a hundred years and a day.

Along with their limitations in the material universe, they now play the great game of the gods, less concerned by the going ons outside of the Eye, seeking favour from their patron god in the case of Angron, Magnus, Mortarion and Fulgrim, or seeking all of the pantheons favour in the case of Lorgar and Perturabo.

They still do appear now and again to cause havoc of some kind. To round up what they generally do now:

Angron terrorized the Imperium during what has been called the Dominion of Fire, which lasted some two hundred years. Then of course he started The First War For Armageddon. Most of his time is likely spent getting very very angry within the Eye and adding skulls to his throne, cause you can evidently never have enough skulls.

Magnus mostly schemes and plots from the Planet or Sorcerers, though there was The Battle of the Fang, when Magnus assaulted The Fang, the fortress monastery of the Space Wolves on Fenris and fucked their shit up before getting banished.

Fulgrim emerged and killed Roboute Guilliman some time after the Heresy. I assume the rest of the time he resides on his own daemon world within the eye doing........things........things that would give even the most hardcore fetish goers heart failure.

Mortarion attacked and corrupted the Imperial world, Sanctia and also more 'recently' killed the Grey Knights Grand Master Geronitan, leading the colossal mary-sue(his actual title) Draigo to........carve Geronitans name into Mortarions heart......pains me every time I read that, let the absurdity of that event sink in over some time and several hard drinks. Other than those times, he's probably likely to be found on the Plague Planet, his homeworld within the Eye, which is assuredly as disgusting as Lindsey Lohan after one of her worse sessions.

Perturabo has seemingly done fuck all apart from build the biggest, bestest, deadliest, most dreadful, well defended and scary fortress ever on his daemon world Medrengard, not that he's still holding a grudge against Dorn or anything (10,000 years of building a fortress.....just sayin..). Though according to the Chaos Codex he did eventually emerge at one point to fuck over one Imperial forge world. 10,000 years and one forge world....good job big guy. Interestingly he was revolted at Fulgrims ascension to daemon prince, so should be interesting to see how he relented eventually to become one.

Lorgar has been even less active than Perturabo, having spent the last few millennia in prayer on Sicarus. There's devout....and then there's Lorgar.

As for Alpharius and Omegon. Who the fuck honestly knows. Honestly those guys literally could have been behind any even in the history of 40k for all we know and we never will.

Kurze is busy being dead, despite what Lux will tell you.

But yeah, the over riding theme is the Daemon Primarchs are too involved in their own schemes, plots and interests within the Eye and in service to the Gods to really care about what's going on. Not to forget they are all immortal now and as a result won't even begin to think along the same lines as everyone else. They've got all the time in the world to plan their next move, they're not in any rush.


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## Dies Irae (May 21, 2008)

That question should be "What is the most powerful between Drach'nyen and a Primarch?" because without his daemon sword Abby is not much. Primarchs can clear entire places free of living forms in a heartbeat, Drach-nyen can shatter reality...Still I think most Primarchs could land the first blow, and that would probably be a killing blow.

Regarding the daemon Primarchs, as it has been said they can't leave the Warp for very long, so they mostly scheme and send armies where they want to, only entering the real world to do funny stuff like completely annihilation planets all by themselves and stuff. Save for Angron, because Angron is a bad-ass and sitting in the Eye of Terror and drinking tea is not what he does.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

With the exception of mythologized (I hope) events like Draigo vs. Mortarion, I think it would be pretty simple. We have rules for Horus, Fulgrim, Angron, and Mortartion. Each of those, rules-wise, seems more than capable of taking down Abaddon (for whom we also have rules).

Yeah, I know this is a fluff question... but I think it means something when the people behind the scenes of the fluff put out numbers that theoretically answer this kind of debate.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Phoebus said:


> Yeah, I know this is a fluff question... but I think it means something when the people behind the scenes of the fluff put out numbers that theoretically answer this kind of debate.


The only issue with this line of logic is that Abby is balanced for the game. The Primarchs are not (necessarily).

They had to keep Abby within tournament-useable levels. IF he was stronger than a Primarch, they couldn't make him stronger than a Primarch on TT. It'd murder the balance.

And I sorta doubt they'd make a 700+ point character for normal TT.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Primarch would win, however I think people go too far in saying they would crush him. Abaddon is probably one of the most deadly space marine still alive so I doubt even a primarch would have a easy time fighting him..


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

(warning biased opinion) Sanguinius would just give him a dirty look and his head would pop! It took Horus (Abaddons boss) infused with the power of all the Chaos gods to kill him and even then Sang put a dent in his armour that proved fatal 

I doubt very much that the gods would give Abaddon that much support after all he has failed epically to do much in the past 10,000 years LOL


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## Dies Irae (May 21, 2008)

Hellados said:


> I doubt very much that the gods would give Abaddon that much support after all he has failed epically to do much in the past 10,000 years LOL


Yes after all he was only given the opportunity to ascend to daemonhood twelve times...


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Whose to say Abaddons been failing all these millennia? Every crusade has had specific objectives in mind, not all of which are revealed to us. Some would say the 13th Crusade was a fail, yet look at Cadia now, its shattered, broken, many of the bastion planets of the Cadian Gate are destroyed or in disarray. You forget that Abaddon and the gods can play the long game, the Imperium doesn't need to be destroyed in one all conquering crusade, but can be worked up to little by little. A few of his crusades have undoubtedly failed or been thwarted by the forces of the Emperor, but many others will have succeeded exactly how he wanted them to.

And as pointed out, he has repeatedly had the chance to ascend to daemonhood, but refuses.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

He refuses to ascend to demonhood (says he) 

Serf/slave/CSM - 'ere boss we just lost a ton of stuff right and then got pushed back into the warp, what gives?
Abaddon - Shut up
Serf/slave/CSM - Isn't all these offerings we're giving getting you support from the gods?
Abaddon - yeah well they offered me demonhood init, but I said no init
Serf/slave/CSM - yeah right!
Abaddon - 12 times
Serf/slave/CSM - .........

hehehehehe

On a more serious and less biased note they are good points, they did take one of the fortresses too, and ofc popped a few planets. Mashed up a ton of forces, also isn't it mainly the infighting that mucks up his plans more then the Imperium being bad-arse?


However back on topic Sanguinius was a double 'ard bastard who did help muck up Horus


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## HOGGLORD (Jan 25, 2012)

Wouldn't it be fairly dependant on the primarch in question? Some would rip Abaddon's balls out through his mouth and shove them up his arse, others, it could end up a close fight.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I agree with what has been so far and yet I am surprised at the overwhelming pole results. A couple years ago I believe we had the same debate about Horus or Abaddon. Fans used to think that chaos could actually make their champions stronger than primarchs.

We see a few examples were this has happened, like the Lion and Luther battling one another. But I think that since fluff has shown the primarchs to be in someways created from the warp, that for the most part that theory has dissapeared.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

It's also worth noting that most of the stuff about the Primarchs being tested by 'mortal' servants of the Gods is in the old fluff while the new fluff has a lot more accounts of Primarchs going through Marines like a chainsword through butter. That probably accounts for some of the change in public perception.


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

The stats are interesting for the Primarchs, but I call bullshit by GW. The Primarchs may be primarchs, but I'm for the idea that the Chaos Gods are the Chaos Gods. Primarch or not it doesn't matter, the fact is the Chaos Gods are more powerful than the Primarchs, and when they chose to favor or give portions of there power to individuals or Daemons, they have a greater potential being more powerful than a primarch. Abaddon is bless by all four chaos gods and they control how much power he has. 

Is it possibly that the Primarchs are strill strong than Abbadon? Of course it is, but that would be something.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

But they are limited in how much they can empower Abaddon without making him a daemon prince. If he accepted daemonhood then what you said there could be true, the daemon Primarchs being vastly more powerful than they were before. But like I said, theres only so much they can do for Abaddon, especially with him turning down there offers of daemonhood and likely mutations as well that could empower him some more. The chaos gods may be more powerful than the Primarchs, but that's irrelevant, doesn't mean their servants are as or more powerful, there's a limit to how much power the gods can bestow upon a servant, especially a mortal one.

Don't forget just how insanely powerful a Primarch is either, even the ones who never became daemon princes, no one really knows quite what into their creation. Created with the warp? With some of the power of the Emperor himself? Hell if what they told Horus is true, some of the power of the chaos gods as well, which makes your point pretty moot.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> But they are limited in how much they can empower Abaddon without making him a daemon prince. If he accepted daemonhood then what you said there could be true, the daemon Primarchs being vastly more powerful than they were before. But like I said, theres only so much they can do for Abaddon, especially with him turning down there offers of daemonhood and likely mutations as well that could empower him some more. The chaos gods may be more powerful than the Primarchs, but that's irrelevant, doesn't mean their servants are as or more powerful, there's a limit to how much power the gods can bestow upon a servant, especially a mortal one.
> 
> Don't forget just how insanely powerful a Primarch is either, even the ones who never became daemon princes, no one really knows quite what into their creation. Created with the warp? With some of the power of the Emperor himself? Hell if what they told Horus is true, some of the power of the chaos gods as well, which makes your point pretty moot.


I'd be more inclined to agree with you if Kor-Phaeon hadn't one-shotted poor Bobby


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## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

With warp magics, which aint exactly fair now is it? Especially with the first shot and afterwards Roboute ripped Kor's fucking heart out.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

That and Guilliman has just spent an absurd amount of time in the void with no helmet, even tells us he's weakened by the exposure.


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## kavyanshrike (Sep 10, 2011)

abaddon would lose against the primarchs they are so much more powerful.
where has everyone got the roboute fluff from?


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## High_Seraph (Aug 28, 2009)

The book Know No Fear. Which describes the Battle of Calth.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

High_Seraph said:


> With warp magics, which aint exactly fair now is it?


Fair or not fair doesn't really enter into the equation 

I'm pretty sure, Abaddon the Chosen Champion of all four Chaos Gods is going to have plenty of "warp magics"



Angel of Blood said:


> That and Guilliman has just spent an absurd amount of time in the void with no helmet, even tells us he's weakened by the exposure.


Could you quote the part? That does it make it sound less humiliating


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> But they are limited in how much they can empower Abaddon without making him a daemon prince.


Are they?


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## kavyanshrike (Sep 10, 2011)

yeah as he is only a human so can only take so much without becoming a daemon as spawn prove (I think)


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Are they?


Obviously power is a relative term when the gods are concerned. I'm referring specifically to them not being able to turn him into the typical image of daemon prince we know, bestial appearance, potentially the size of a dreadnought, wings etc etc. 

Granted we've seem them empower mortals do very powerful levels, given them mutations etc(though I'm guessing Abaddon has refused mutations as well) and bringing them back from the dead is certainly not beyond them. But I imagine they could give him even more power if he was a daemon prince, speculation perhaps, but makes sense I feel. Though as I've said earlier, he would suffer the drawbacks of daemonhood also.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I have been always for the idea that Chaos wanted the Imperium to survive and maintain the crippled state it is in. 

As long as Abbadon remains a pawn of the Chaos Gods, he will have more potential power than the loyalist primarchs. But because of my theory, I believe he will never have that power. 

Therefore, unless a loyalist primarch returns and threatens the power of the mortal chaos contingent (which for the most part is in this case the Black Legion), Abbadon will never be granted more chaos gifts without destroying his ambition and hatred of the Imperium.


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## kavyanshrike (Sep 10, 2011)

ckcrawford said:


> I have been always for the idea that Chaos wanted the Imperium to survive and maintain the crippled state it is in.
> 
> As long as Abbadon remains a pawn of the Chaos Gods, he will have more potential power than the loyalist primarchs. But because of my theory, I believe he will never have that power.
> 
> Therefore, unless a loyalist primarch returns and threatens the power of the mortal chaos contingent (which for the most part is in this case the Black Legion), Abbadon will never be granted more chaos gifts without destroying his ambition and hatred of the Imperium.


 so with chaos being a lot more powerful in the most recent dark crusade does that indicate that the imperium is getting more powerful? or just that the cadians are getting worse?


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