# Damnation of Pythos.



## Vaz

Absolute gopping mess. I'm going to preface this, with a 1.5/10, and maybe lower. The worst book in the Heresy series, and yes, I'm including Battle for the Abyss, Prospero Burns, AND the Outcast Dead in this list. Know No Fear and Fear to Tread, despite fairly poor writing actually have the saving grace of "shit happens".

The Iron Hands, about as cool an idea as possible, Terminators in Power Armour, Flesh is weak, replace with logical machines, and yet the Primarch realised that his sons were going too far, in some poetic parallel with the Word Bearers.

HOW THE FUCK ARE YOU SO BORING?

HOW THE FUCK ARE YOU SO FUCKING IDIOTIC?

HOW THE FUCK DO YOU NOT HAVE FRIDGE LOGIC? IT'S A KIND OF FUCKING LOGIC.

It's Bolter Porn, and not even good Bolter porn. It's Space Marine Battles novel, with references to Chapter's Ctrl+F'd and replaced with Legions, with the tick-box BL seem to have of having three legions mentioned per novel that seems to be the running trend (TUE; UM, DA, BA/TVS; UM, BA, SoH/DoP; IH/RG/Sal) to have it labled a Heresy novel.

Nothing important happens. A few Space Marines start off with X plot armoured characters go to a world, kill something to tick the "ooh kill'em" box, then they go back to the planet, where people begin to die, and some fucking idiot can't read the writing on the wall, and the Space Marines have the ability to read threat indicators like a blind 3 year old.

They deserve to die, and you want them to die for being such cunting retards.

There is one interesting bit - the demon summoned (you might as well know, you can spot it a mile off, and I'll save you £10+) is an anagram of Lamiad. This is either intentional, or about the shittest name for the BBEG since... nope. It's the shittest name ever. Madail? Seriously? Mad Ale? Fucking hell.

The characters are not even that. They're caricatures of extremes of the legions used as a statement, and very poorly.

The words written are of an entirely different story, then run through a Thesaurus to give it some false je ne sais quoi, some form of fake integrity and depth that some vapid twat you're speaking to uses big words to make themselves sound more intelligent. This isn't just the typical overbearing bumf you're used to in 40K where they make up words all the time. This is purposely annoying uses of deliberately archaic terminology. 

Annandale is not established or capable enough to pull it off.

And the end of the story? Everyone dies, pointlessly and needlessly. It's a self contained book, with no references to the Primarchs short of Ferrus Manus is dead, and no characters you were aware of (sans some minor short, IIRC?), nor need to care about. Even the shitty subplot of Vengeful Spirit with Loken was better written (because really? Who got Vengeful spirit to read about Loken? I got it to see Horus in action with the Mournival in tow).

This is the worst book in the entire series.


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## Roninman

I have absolutely no interest in this book anyway, might be my fight HH book in this series that i will never read. It is just a meaningless sidestory so it seems. Good to hear something really negative about books aswell, some people here normally gives too much credit to novels of HH series.

Makes me ask, should they start put these to Space marine battles novels category or start producing their own HH: Space marine battles series. They could even add battles from Great crusade era.


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## Malus Darkblade

It really pains me to say this but I believe ghostwriting is something that is taking place behind the scenes in BL.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

Malus Darkblade said:


> It really pains me to say this but I believe ghostwriting is something that is taking place behind the scenes in BL.


I'm actually eighteen separate entities, and not one of the fuckers can hit a deadline. It's tragic.

David's just one guy, though. Trust me, there's no ghostwriting. There's no reason or need for it. It'd serve no purpose.


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## Anakwanar

Our beloved Dead.Blue.Clown - where is the 'Master of Mankind'? We have nothing to read. At least give us Sevatar to chat with :grin:


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

Anakwanar said:


> Our beloved Dead.Blue.Clown - where is the 'Master of Mankind'? We have nothing to read. At least give us Sevatar to chat with :grin:


I've been writing other stuff lately. There's some Sev stuff on the way, but I've not been feeling the Heresy vibe of late, so I wanted to do other things pre-MoM.

But this isn't the thread for such things (I was only trying to defend David's good name above), so I'll bail out here.


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## Anakwanar

Don't leave us :grin: Anyway - thanks for the Sevatar stuff - it is truly hillarious :grin:


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## Angel of Blood

I foresee this sitting on my bookshelf for quite some time, unread.


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## Sevatar

I agree that it this book has no place in the Heresy series. With a few minor alterations it'd work as a Space Marines Battle novel just fine.

The Iron Hands being caricatures is not exclusive to this book though. There are barely any members of this Chapter/Legion that come to my mind whose character extends beyond "The flesh is weak!".


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## Malus Darkblade

Sevatar said:


> I agree that it this book has no place in the Heresy series. With a few minor alterations it'd work as a Space Marines Battle novel just fine.
> 
> The Iron Hands being caricatures is not exclusive to this book though. There are barely any members of this Chapter/Legion that come to my mind whose character extends beyond "The flesh is weak!".


Why did it even need to be made? 

Apparently it adds 0 to the storyline and just focuses on random space marines fighting dinosaurs. It hurts the integrity of the IP.


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## ckcrawford

Shit... I don't want to read this. I can't believe this is a book. Though I'm sure there is a critical piece that will bring further contribution to the series as a whole. I actually think I have some of the same tastes as Vaz, but I will say that even the really bad novels have had a certain aspect that makes the heresy's foundations. For example, I really hate _Deliverance Lost_ and _Angel Exterminatus_ but there is some vague sense to it. For example, the explanation of number replenishments in the traitor legions and even conflict within the traitor legions. But dang they are bad stories.


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## Stephen74

I believe I had said all of this in the 'rate what you read' thread. :so_happy:

Certainly puts me off the Iron Hands as well. No more Iron Hands please. Ever.


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## MontytheMighty

Vaz said:


> Prospero Burns, AND the Outcast Dead in this list.


Prospero Burns is much better than Outcast Dead, though the title is very misleading 



> Know No Fear and Fear to Tread, despite fairly poor writing actually have the saving grace of "shit happens".


Know No Fear is well written. Fear to Tread is shite


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## Garviel loken.

did you just say know no fear was bad writing? Now i know your full of shit


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## deepsix81

I'll just add my voice to this as a counterpoint. As I was reading, I never had the thought that this would be such an unpopular read, and I came away with a wildly different opinion from the majority (that has posted thus far). I thought very highly of the book altogether, though the second half seemed to drone on with not much that I found interesting. 

The idea of this being a story with no relevance to the rest of the Heresy is off base. If nothing else, the epilogue is one giant 'To Be Continued,' with a BBEG (as the OP termed it) let losse and needing to be accounted for. With very little mental arithmetic, you can see how this would clear up one of the series' major plot holes for the future. That alone is a (minor) progression of the storyline, and probably the most important thing to take from the book. If dinosaur fights are your major takeaway, you may have been focusing on the wrong things. 

The part I was most struck by, however, was the opening half of the story, before the cultists are introduced and the legions land on Pythos for the second time. This is the portion of the story that focused on the fallout of one of the larger storylines of the Heresy - the death of Ferrus Manus and what it means to the surviving Iron Hands. It really hadn't been addressed to any meaningful degree before _Pythos_. The Sevatar short (_Prince of Crows_) covered the chaos of the almost-death of Curze and how the Night Lords coped. And _Riven _scraped the surface of the Hands post-Isstvan trauma for the Hands. This book goes so much further in depth, including the effects on the serfs and human descendants of Medusa. If nothing else is of interest, at the very least it is worthwhile to see where the legion's rage comes from and how they are able to use it to guide them. The most important and beautiful passages of the book deal directly with this idea and (IMO) are as impressive as any passages that I've seen in the Heresy to this point.


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## Matcap

deepsix81 said:


> I'll just add my voice to this as a counterpoint.



I find myself also on the positive side of this book. It's not the best one by a long shot, but I found it a decent read which, for me, gave a nice view of marines confronting chaos for the first time. A 40k marine would notice the signs on the wall and storm in, killing all the potential cultists while sceaming heresy at the top of his lungs. Here they are far more cautious about the situation, not knowing how to handle all the stuff that happens and what it means. Sure the book is hamfisted in places, but overall I enjoyed it.


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## mal310

There are at least four people in this thread ranting about a book they have not even read. Give me a break! I'm about half way through and really enjoying it. So far its a hell of a lot better that anything McNeill had done in the series lately.


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## Vaz

mal310 said:


> There are at least four people in this thread ranting about a book they have not even read. Give me a break! I'm about half way through and really enjoying it. So far its a hell of a lot better that anything McNeill had done in the series lately.


In regards to your first comment - who is ranting about the book they've not read? There are people saying that they might not pick it up/read it because of the piss poor reviews it has got (and this isn't the extreme outliers or radicals, these are pretty much 50/50, if not more).

In regards to Graham McNeil - normally I'd agree. But Vengeful Spirit's combat scenes were honestly what you got the book for, and he delivered on that front. Compared with Annandale's disjointed and poorly paced/timed action sequences, I disagree on that front. Plotwise? They're both a pile of shit.


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## nioveratus

I have to agree with Vaz...this is an utter piece of shite...this book is so boring I found myself speed-reading since nothing, I mean NOTHING happens in the whole book..action is bad written and I though he could do something new with the idea of psykers in the X legion but that was just a dead end....no cool characters and everybody dies..thank god I did not pay for this book or I would have to shoot myself...


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## Malus Darkblade

Vaz said:


> In regards to Graham McNeil - normally I'd agree. But Vengeful Spirit's combat scenes were honestly what you got the book for, and he delivered on that front. Compared with Annandale's disjointed and poorly paced/timed action sequences, I disagree on that front. Plotwise? They're both a pile of shit.


Did he really? All the fight scenes I've read so far are droll. 

And Horus is a weakling compared to how he is described in other books. Despite being shielded by Daemonhosts, he still describes the attack by the Knight as the most excruciating he's ever felt (let's not say that because he is Horus, he's never been put in a position to be hurt in the past) while you have Lorgar shrugging off a Titan's plasma-gun and not uttering a word.

In addition it took three Primarchs, one of whom was a Daemon already, to take down a helicopter. I was not a fan of that.


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## Angel of Blood

At least it was unequivocally a Heresy novel. Pythos could be 40k for all it matters.


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## bobss

What does this novel even contribute to the overall series? It sounds like a post-Dropsite Massacre _Horus Rising_ without the reems of goodies that made Horus Rising great. And, frankly, Horus-Rising-like novels have no place in the series in 2014.

Even trying to explain away the lack of linear plotting - with the good ol' sandpit analogy - doesn't fully cover it. Never mind the quality of the prose, the novel itself feels like a complete non-entity. As you say Vaz, a SMB novel with 30k window dressing.

The only positive caveat I can think of is showing the Iron Hands post-Dropsite Massacre and dealing with the death of their primarch. Well, there has been a glut of that since Fulgrim, and frankly a single, moving and well-written short story would sufficed. To be frank the Dropsite Massacre has lost a good deal of its impact for me with all this Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard material lately.

It seems the Black Library's (and their fans') urge to SHOWALLTHETHINGS (which is already simply poor storytelling short and simple) to SHOWALLTHETHINGSANDTHENSOMEYOUDON'TNEEDTOSEE.


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## deepsix81

bobss said:


> What does this novel even contribute to the overall series? It sounds like a post-Dropsite Massacre _Horus Rising_ without the reems of goodies that made Horus Rising great. And, frankly, Horus-Rising-like novels have no place in the series in 2014.
> 
> Even trying to explain away the lack of linear plotting - with the good ol' sandpit analogy - doesn't fully cover it. Never mind the quality of the prose, the novel itself feels like a complete non-entity. As you say Vaz, a SMB novel with 30k window dressing.
> 
> The only positive caveat I can think of is showing the Iron Hands post-Dropsite Massacre and dealing with the death of their primarch. Well, there has been a glut of that since Fulgrim, and frankly a single, moving and well-written short story would sufficed. To be frank the Dropsite Massacre has lost a good deal of its impact for me with all this Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard material lately.


This is interesting, because I feel that the Hands have been underserved, and basically ignored since Manus was killed. What stories have you seen their post-Isstvan plight dealt with? Other than _Riven - _which had very little to do with the legion itself and was a micro-level look at one rogue warband - there has been next to nothing on how the Iron Hands have coped. 

Have I missed something? Do you have other examples?


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## Vaz

Honestly, it feels like pretty much every book has Iron Hands in them. They were the most numerous loyallist Legion involved post-drop site, admittedly, but any book involved the Shattered Legions has Iron Hands involved, who near enough single handedly manage to fuck things up, and simulataneously be the most uninteresting characters written.

I'm not going to lie, I might be slightly biased in that I was never interested in Iron Hands prior to the Heresy information - they were just a legion which preferred bionics to tap into that Terminator-style vibe (with a part-metal, part-plastic tactical squad being produced for them around the time of when Matrix 2 and 3 were at their biggest hype, IIRC back in late 3rd/early 4th edition, IIRC), similar to how Tau tapped into Gundam interest etc.

Damnation of Pythos
Angel Exterminatus
The Primarchs

All of these have major focus on the Iron Hands following the legions - Angel Exterminatus was notable for the Iron Warriors first major appearance, and how Fulgrim interacted with that, while Damnation of Pythos was meant to be "the return" of the Iron Hands to the screen. In addition to that, there are a ton of other references and inclusions of Iron Hands dotted about, where, they didn't need to be.

If you want to sum up the novel, The Iron Hands went to a world, jumped through a few hoops set by a Daemon, and they created a Daemonic Invasion. After Dawn of War, and Ben Counter, everyone is sick of that same fucking storyline. It's not interesting. They most relevant part of those novels, though? They're 40K, not 30K.

Sure, Madail might return in another book, but why did we need to have a storyline that was "dur, Iron Hands are thick as shit, look", and have to pay money to have someone write not only that novel, but waste my time reading it (and yes, I feel like I wasted my time reading it).

I'm not saying that the Iron Hands would have noticed "oh, they worship Chaos", but rather that "why do they make no mention of the Emperor ever?" It was as predictable a plot twist as the Knights of House Devine, or the Raven Guard "Solaro" who was the "traitor", rather than Agapito. (Seriously? Keep referencing the scarred face of Agapito that often, you're going to draw an intelligent person to think the opposite because it's that hammed up).


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## deepsix81

Vaz said:


> Honestly, it feels like pretty much every book has Iron Hands in them. They were the most numerous loyallist Legion involved post-drop site, admittedly, but any book involved the Shattered Legions has Iron Hands involved, who near enough single handedly manage to fuck things up, and simulataneously be the most uninteresting characters written.
> 
> I'm not going to lie, I might be slightly biased in that I was never interested in Iron Hands prior to the Heresy information - they were just a legion which preferred bionics to tap into that Terminator-style vibe (with a part-metal, part-plastic tactical squad being produced for them around the time of when Matrix 2 and 3 were at their biggest hype, IIRC back in late 3rd/early 4th edition, IIRC), similar to how Tau tapped into Gundam interest etc.
> 
> Damnation of Pythos
> Angel Exterminatus
> The Primarchs
> 
> All of these have major focus on the Iron Hands following the legions - Angel Exterminatus was notable for the Iron Warriors first major appearance, and how Fulgrim interacted with that, while Damnation of Pythos was meant to be "the return" of the Iron Hands to the screen. In addition to that, there are a ton of other references and inclusions of Iron Hands dotted about, where, they didn't need to be.


My point isn't that the Iron Hands are merely _mentioned_ in a novel, but that we get to see and experience the loss that come with a primarch being killed. That just hasn't been presented in any of the post-_Fulgrim _novels save _Pythos_. 

The Hands were the secondary focus of the _Exterminatus_ novel, but that was almost wholly an Iron Warriors story. There was almost no mention of Ferrus Manus or what his loss meant to the legion. They were essentially just a kill-squad. Whereas _Pythos_ went into much more detail and focused more fully on the fallout of Manus' death. In particular the passages about the resultant intra-legion power structure, lack direction/vision, and competing agendas within the survivor group(s). 

_Feat of Iron_, the story from _The Primarchs _had no relevance to the post-Isstvan Iron Hands. It was a snapshot from a battle that showcased zero creativity, strategy, or problem-solving ability from the Hands. And this was with Ferrus leading the attack. The message from this one was simply that the hands had gone too far in distancing themselves from the 'weakness' of the flesh. There was no disruption of power dynamics, as Ferrus appointed the leader of the fighting effort while he took his journey. So while they may have been mentioned, or even featured in this case, very little (or nothing) is made of what will happen to the legion once their primarch is gone. 

Now it's entirely possible that I'm just dismissing these other stories because they didn't fit into the bos of what I wanted to read. That's a completely fair critique. But the description of the hurt, the chaos (pun not intended), and the general pall over the legion were what made _Pythos_ a huge step up from the other references to the post-Isstvan X Legion.


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## Vaz

Fair point.

But you cannot deny that they are boringly portrayed - the idea is cool, but execution, is... beige. One saving grace (maybe) is Atticus' attitude to the Salamanders and Raven Guard, but that was near irrelevant.

What did we see? The Iron Hands were sad at FM death? Yes. The IH lost their Father, and Commander in Chief (sans Emperor). What else? They were unsure of what to do without orders? They were angry at Sallies/RG. Only atticus presented that.

There presented too little characters to present that. You have a pro diplomacy IH, and an ALWAYS ANGRY and a serf. A couple of bit parts. 

What else did they say?


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## polynike

Finished it last night and I have to agree with the OP. No need for this book in the HH at all. There are a myriad of better ways to portray the IH's reaction to Ferrus' death than having them go to a chaos manipulated death world and fight dinosaurs. As a matter of fact the HH has lost the plot somewhat and is lacking direction with too many tangents and offshoots. Maybe we should stop putting £'s in BL's pockets until the series gets back on track!


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## Brother Lucian

Check out the short story Riven by John French, it details an encounter with Post Istvaan iron hands and their terrible act in detailing with the death of Ferrus Manus. Where you really saw the psychological trauma inflicted on their stoic legion.
The protagonist Iron Hand is one of the Crusader Host, newly aware of the istvaan atrocity.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/riven-ebook.html


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## LazyG

Late to the party but I broadly agree with what si said here. I really feel the IH just come across dull in the telling. Maybe it is inevitable, take the human weak flesh out of the already a bit cut out Astartes and they get less interesting. ADB is a freaking genius (as is Abnet for me, though i know others argue) because the endows the astartes with personality and drive. Pythos sucked because not only did we have the not so interesting IH, but we also had an enemy who was just a bunch of monsters with little personality themselves. 

I think Annandale did a fairly mediocre job but I think the deck was stacked against him. What about the IH has actually been good so far? Abnet did a great job in extracting character from the cookie cutter ultrasmurfs as ADB did from the potentially cookie cutter Night Lords, and McNeil did a rare star turn with the richer material of the TS, but the IH plus the author with a bit less weight really made this a dull book I am afraid. I got through it only as I was on a plane. Reading it after Talon of Horus was also a mistake, as that was so goddam good i was even more disappointed. I also tried to read death of Antagonis, but found that equally bland and bailed.


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## theurge33

So what was the final word that was sent?


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## forkmaster

Chris Wraights portrayal of them in _Wrath of Iron_ is by far the best and so far only good interpretation. They do not only scream "_Flesh is weak!_" and hurr durr, but they also on a small atomic level act in every way machine-like. And they do things not just because they are stupid, but on a logical way it is the best alternative.

I also liked the small tidbits of Ferrus Manus who were worried that his Legion was flawed as they craved to better themselves (not unlike the Emperor's Children) through machines. The only fault in that is they are already perfect in every stance as possibly could be.

Imagine if _Feat of Iron_, being no stupid tale of rash Ferrus "_I'm a hot head and hence forth stupid_" Manus who is hunting aliens only to see the most obvious "_You will be decapitated!_"-prophecy, would build upon this. It could be prior to Isstvan V when Manus scribes his worries about the future of his Legion, how he and some senior officers would clash because he doesn't support their decisions to actively cut of their limbs, how he hate his own arms for what they _are_ despite what they _can_ do. And the ending would allude to them becoming fanatics rather than retelling the obvious ending of _Fulgrim_. In that way it would serve a purpose pre-Isstvan with tellings of the future. It would also show that they aren't now a days the most stupid Legion ever conceived.

That would add character, it would add conflicts and we would see them in a new light other than stereotypical re-takes of the overexagerated Codex.


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## Brother Lucian

Warhammer Community just posted this hilariously funny Regimental Standard today. 
https://regimental-standard.com/2017/11/08/welcome-to-pythos-iv/

Attention, Guardsmen!

Your regiment will shortly be stationed on Pythos IV, an exceptionally fortunate assignment given the favourability of the world. As many of you are forbidden from accessing your shipboard library and finding out just _why _you are so lucky to be placed on Pythos IV, the Regimental Standard has stepped in to keep you informed as ever:











*Pythos is beautiful!*

Pythos is one of the most beautiful worlds in the Imperium, featuring a range of megafauna and flora that any hive-dweller will appreciate. From gigantic quadruped saurians to a wide range of plant species, you’ll have plenty of chances for some fresh air and some sightseeing during your training exercises. You may even get a chance to sample some of the local cuisines!*


Best of all, the fortifications on Pythos are built to the same STC specifications as all others in the Imperium, meaning that it’ll feel just like home when you’re indoors – right down to the reassuring thrum of the plasma generators, the comforting mumbling of the attendant-servitors and the scratching of servo skulls noting your every move, so neither you nor your superiors are in any doubt about where you were at any given moment.

In order to ease your transition, we recommend you consult Uplifting Pamphlet 5147//c: _Why Is The Roof In This Hive City Blue And Covered in Fluffy White Cave Fungus And 312 Other Questions Frequently Asked By Urban Recruits Deployed To Undeveloped Worlds. 
_
*Pythos is peaceful!*


Unusually for a world whose name appears very frequently in Imperial records, Pythos IV has an almost unbroken record of peace, broken up only by some sections where data is missing during the 31st and 41st Millennia. We’re sure that this is simply because any archivists of the time were bored by their bucolic, jungle-living lifestyle and wanted to sign up to fight against the forces of the Archenemy.
*Pythos is the home of great Imperial heroes!*

Pythos is home to Colonel “Death” Strike, a renowned hero of the Catachan Jungle Fighters. Worry not, Guardsmen! It’s only a name. The Colonel possesses only 88% of the average combat efficacy of a Deathstrike Missile, an inaccuracy that Imperial High Command has graciously agreed to allow given the Colonel’s personal commendations by the Dark Angels Chapter. 

Please note that, while martial bonding exercises are generally encouraged, all arm-wrestling with the Colonel is banned due the strain on the medical staff present on Pythos (in less extreme cases) and a lack of cybernetic limb replacements (in more severe cases). Handshakes are permitted, but only when wearing gauntlets approved for handling heavy weapons Grade F or higher.’

There you have it, Guardsmen – Pythos is an all but perfect world on which to be stationed, and quite frankly, you may as well be on official leave.**

_Thought for the Day: ‘Seek no reward but the satisfaction of your master.’

_ _* Note that is has been deemed casualty-efficient for guardsmen on Pythos to hunt their food for themselves while supply-lines are repaired following an unrelated incident. Rest assured that if nutrient-menials were permitted to feel gratitude for anyone other than their direct overseer and the Emperor then they would thank you.
__** A note to Whiteshields: “Leave” is a period away from service permitted to higher-ranking officers in order to give them time to rest their highly attenuated strategic sensibilities. _


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## Knockagh

I read this thread again for the first time since 2014. It?s unbelievable that Annandale is still getting away with his awful writing. Terrible then, terrible today and I?m sure terrible tomorrow. BL have got such a great stable of writers they don?t need this crap. What?s worse is he has been given quite a few limited editions and key novels to write. 

BTW the Regimental Standard is brilliant..... I miss a little humour since Cains books have dried up. The Standard lets us laugh in the grim dark future. Which is better than crying at Annandales writing


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