# Hatred of Ultramarines



## Baron Spikey

Being a fan of all things Astartes, and liking a good argument, I took it upon myself to fight the corner of the Ultramarines in recent months as they've come under increasing bitterness and bile.

But what I really want to know is why people dislike them- note I don't want to hear it's because they're bloody blue- I'm fairly certain that any fluff argument some one comes up with, I and my fellow 'Defenders of Ultramar' can counter.

So have at, why do you dislike the boys in blue (or do you like them)?


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak

I personally am somewhat neutral the the Ultramarines. They weren't my Chapter of choice when I first got Marines, nor do I dislike them. The Ultramarines are simply the best possible example of a Codex Astartes Chapter, this isnt saying they are the -best- Chapter, just the best example. The biggest source of negative flak they receive is from people who don't like the fact that GW use them as 'poster boys'. I maintain, that if you are going to look at a generic Marine Chapter who goes by the Codex Astartes, why not go with, as the icon for such Chapters, the Chapter who's Primarch created these guidelines, and who follows them the closest. If say Vulkan had written the Codex, and Sallies were the poster chapter, then the situation would be that Sallies are dumb.

That's my opinon then.

Grish


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## darkreever

Its funny, I used to dislike them but when I thought about it there was no reason to. Its not like they left the shattered Imperium all but leaderless so they could go off and vent their anger, or not suffer heavy losses trying to keep the Imperium together. And its not like their leader did not make it so no one could ever do what Horus did again, or fight a daemon primarch.


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## Unforgiven302

I don't "hate" them, I am just tired of looking at them and reading about them. A change of scenery is always refreshing, no?


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## Tzeen Qhayshek

I think the are quite cool. The name of their realm is lame, but it is a neat idea. One of the few lights in a dark room.

Though, I wish they paid more attention to the other armies as well, as they have rich histories and stories just like the Astartes do.

Argh, I have when GW went public.


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## mahavira

I actually have the reverse: I hate the variant chapters (blood angels (especially), dark angels (much less so, was introduced to 40k by the old space hulk computer game), space wolves and black templars). I don't mind that Codex Space marines are the poster boys for 40K, I don't mind that more often than not it's ultramarines (though I find the name dubious). I even think it entirely appropriate that the first codex per edition be codex astartes space marines. What I object to is 4 variants all with their own codex, and at least 3 of whom are close combat specialists. If it was just a matter of alternate models and fluff, fine, many of them do indeed look rather cool, but when GW has difficulty keeping armies up to date (more than one army is still using a 3rd edition codex) it annoys me tremendously that there are codexes for 4 variations on an army that already exists. I hate to imagine what long time players of races like Dark Eldar feel...


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## Serpion5

We feel ever building frustration! :ireful2:

On the UM, I have nothing against them Baron. Admittedly, I am among the first to crack a joke at their expense, but in my case that`s nothing special. I call shit on everyone.

In truth, I actually enjoy reading about them, I am a fan of McNeill`s UM novels and always enjoy a game against the boys in blue.

But I will never play as them. For the sole reason that I stubbornly refuse to paint any of my models as they appear on the box...


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## Varakir

I don't hate the ultramarines, i think their fluff is pretty good and i actually like their colour scheme when done right (Gareth and Jpunk's UMs come to mind)

What i think irks me about them is that they lure new players into their trap, baiting them like internet predators. 

You start 40K, you buy AOBR (or whatever the starter set is) and you get all excited about how cool the space marines look before you really read anything about other armies.

So you decide you'll probably play SM's, because you already have some models right? So you get the codex, and start reading through and it tells you how cool the UMs are. Then when you come to pick a chapter, you either choose the Black Consuls who "are blackand possibly dead" or you choose the Ultramarines with their codex full of fluff, and special characters and stuff.

Before you even know how to play properly, you have a UM army. Those sneaky devils.


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## MidnightSun

I used to hate them for taking up my White Dwarf where there should have been more pictures of Squigs dancing or engaged in other amusing activities, but then I started playing them. I then thought 'Oh, awesome! I get an army that looks cool, I don't get bored of painting and I get new models every month! Godmod!'

Midnight


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## Khorothis

Unforgiven302 said:


> ... I am just tired of looking at them and reading about them. A change of scenery is always refreshing, no?





Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> Though, I wish they paid more attention to the other armies as well, as they have rich histories and stories just like the Astartes do.


These two.

3, I'm a Word Bearer, its my job to hate Ultramarines. 

4, UMs are called the best of the best, even though it wasn't them who held the gates of the Imperial Palace. It was the Imperial Fists, the Blood Angels, and the White Scars who stood their ground against all the killy things Horus could muster. Which was much, much more than anything the Ultrasmurfs handled with everything considered. Yes, even the oh-so-deadly Tyranid Tendril that got to Macragge was childs play in comparison to that. I'm not saying that the Ultrasmurfs don't deserve credit for that (though I detect the hand of the Space Marine 3+), only that they shouldn't go around and tell everyone what they should do.

5, Hatred is not an opinion, its a choice. You might hate someone for several reasons but in the long run opinions become outdated, rusty, or just plain bullshit. But when its a choice theres no reasoning, just seasoning... :laugh:


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## Stella Cadente

overused, hyped up, and according to Jervis twatface johnson EVERYONE loves them and EVERYONE has collected them or does collect them, which I don't and don't want to.


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## CursedUNTILLDEATH

My dislike for them is GW's fault. i thought they were cool untill the only legion to be feautred in the 5th ed codex was them whcih made me very angry becasue it gives gullieman a ton of love and gives almost none to the chapters and their primarchs. Other chapters did stuff to GW... not just the ultras.


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## rokar4life

I like Ultramarines, most people don't. On that note I giggle whenever someone says most people don't like them and everyone plays them in the same post(not saying anyone did this time but last pro smurf post.. boy I was cracking up.) In truth all the hate towards them keeps people from playing them to the point where actually in person I've only seen 2 Ultramarine armies one of which was from someone who played them because the only marine army left that no one played was the Ultramarines.


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## Baron Spikey

Khorothis said:


> 4, UMs are called the best of the best, even though it wasn't them who held the gates of the Imperial Palace. It was the Imperial Fists, the Blood Angels, and the White Scars who stood their ground against all the killy things Horus could muster. Which was much, much more than anything the Ultrasmurfs handled with everything considered. Yes, even the oh-so-deadly Tyranid Tendril that got to Macragge was childs play in comparison to that. I'm not saying that the Ultrasmurfs don't deserve credit for that (though I detect the hand of the Space Marine 3+), only that they shouldn't go around and tell everyone what they should do.


It wasn't the Ultramarines who held the Imperial Palace but then again they made significantly better time getting to Terra than either the Space Wolves or Dark Angels, and they held the Imperium together through the long Scouring- losing most the Legion (90.4% to be exact) whilst the IF and SW decided to go and do whatever they wanted and the rest of the Legions did bugger all...except the Dark Angels who had their own mini civil war.


CursedUNTILLDEATH said:


> My dislike for them is GW's fault. i thought they were cool untill the only legion to be feautred in the 5th ed codex was them whcih made me very angry becasue it gives gullieman a ton of love and gives almost none to the chapters and their primarchs. Other chapters did stuff to GW... not just the ultras.


They are the Codex Chapter which all other Codex Chapters are based on, complaining that they're the focus of Codex: Space Marines is like complaining that the Blood Angels are the focus of their Codex instead of the Flesh Tearers.

Others Chapters did stuff as well as the UM, but only the other First Founding Chapters did any where near as much.


rokar4life said:


> I like Ultramarines, most people don't. On that note I giggle whenever someone says most people don't like them and everyone plays them in the same post(not saying anyone did this time but last pro smurf post.. boy I was cracking up.) In truth all the hate towards them keeps people from playing them to the point where actually in person I've only seen 2 Ultramarine armies one of which was from someone who played them because the only marine army left that no one played was the Ultramarines.


I'm amazed by this thread so far, usually we get the ignorant gits coming along saying _'the UM didn't do anything for the Imperium around the Heresy'_ but none of that here...so far.


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## hungryugolino

Ignorant git arriving on schedule! 


Too much Games Workshop attention, and they're annoying. Ooh, look at us! We're better! Really!

The Ultramarines managed to get themselves lost during the Heresy. As has been said elsewhere. "they're conveniently on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs." 

Warhammer would be better with Crimson Fists as the poster boys again. If nothing else, they have better fluff and colour scheme.


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## Baron Spikey

hungryugolino said:


> Ignorant git arriving on schedule!
> 
> 
> Too much Games Workshop attention, and they're annoying. Ooh, look at us! We're better! Really!
> 
> The Ultramarines managed to get themselves lost during the Heresy. As has been said elsewhere. "they're conveniently on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs."
> 
> Warhammer would be better with Crimson Fists as the poster boys again. If nothing else, they have better fluff and colour scheme.


Ah here we go...

Yes conveniently, convenient for Horus who ordered them to return and regroup at Ultramar and then whilst they were assembling the Warmaster tasked the Word Bearers- the 2nd largest Legion- with attacking and destroying the UM. Other than that yeah I suppose you could say they got lost...

Now the White Scars knew nothing about the Heresy for the 7 years it was going on, the only thing they did in the entire civil war was to assemble at Terra.


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## gen.ahab

In the wolves defence, baron, they were rather mangled after the heresy. Fighting with the tsons and the alpha legions, which allowed the white scars to reinforce Terra, had left them with so few men I doubt they would have been much use to te defenders.... But they did do their part, you must admit.


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## Muffinman

I dont hate the Ultramarines I just dislike that they get the the majority of the attention. Oh Look we have a movie named after us AND we're in a video game! It also annoys me that it seems to be the army most little kids joining the hobby start (at least in my area.) So i do see them ALOT!! 

Now going to the point about them not doing anything during the heresy I strongly disagree with that. Now I do think they didn't do much DURING the Heresy but AFTER the Heresy they are probably one of the reasons there still is an Imperium.


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## Baron Spikey

Yes they did, but no more than the Ultramarines- though I suppose the Space Wolves did significantly more than those lazy bastards the Iron Hands.


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## gen.ahab

You have a good point... I do t remember hea.... Wait, they were almost all dead! Lol


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## Deneris

Baron Spikey said:


> Yes they did, but no more than the Ultramarines- though I suppose the Space Wolves did significantly more than those lazy bastards the Iron Hands.


The nerve of them lying around dead and dying on Istvaan...


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## Baron Spikey

No the veteran company and Ferrus were the dead, the majority of the legion was fine.


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## gen.ahab

Well.... I suppose they were in mourning. lol


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## Supersonic Banana

I like the UMs. And i'm a csm player.
This is because every bloody player about 4 foot tall plays them=easy wins :victory:
There are only a few experienced players at my FLGs that play UMs as most of them have grown up 
I do respect those players that use them well however as most UM lists are predictable and so are reasonably easy to counter. In my opinion.


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## Ghost792

Besides the GW love to the Ultrasmurfs, the fact that in the codex they have 6 characters (who the hell uses Cassius and Chronus) when every other chapter represented there (all the other first founding and the Crimson Fists) gets 1 (except the Iron Hands who get none) and the introduction of the Space Marines to new players as Ultramarines (There are 5 other chapters represented in the rules) fuels the hatred. I understand that the codex is mainly about the Ultras, but its called Codex: Space Marines, not Codex: Ultramarines. It would be like the Eldar being introduced as Craftworld Ulthwe to the exclusion of the other Craftworlds being represented by the Codex. I don't really like the other loyalists anyway, the Templar's being an exception, but the Ultramarines really seem to be the locus of that hatred.


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## shaantitus

Baron Spikey said:


> Yes they did, but no more than the Ultramarines- though I suppose the Space Wolves did significantly more than those lazy bastards the Iron Hands.


That's a bit of a low blow. I thout you ULTRA types played fair. 
Ferrus took as much of his legion as he could muster and lost most of it. To the current date (40K) they are still short of dreads. I will have to go and re read fulgrim but the point of the dropsite massacre was to obliterate 3 loyal legions. In which it was almost entirely successful.

As for the ultras. I don't hate them, I am indifferent to them. Their record history and fluff are excellent but, as stated by others I would rather see all the time and effort used on them (and the other variant sm chapters) spread around those less fortunate. DE, WH, DH(sort of different but justified), Eldar, Tau and Necrons. It is ok for all traitor marine forces to come out of 1 dex, why not the loyalists. There are three current dexes for marines so far, how many more I wonder.


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## darkreever

shaantitus said:


> In which it was almost entirely successful.


Thats an understatement; nearly wiping out two legions and shattering a third. The Iron Hands might have only come with Ferrus Manus and the forces he had with him at the time, but the drop site massacre did wipe out the head of the Iron Hands and a very large portion of its veterans.


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## 5tonsledge

why do i hate ultra marines? hmm because they are loyal to a rotting corpse. but other than that aspect i dont hate them. and remember
╔╗╥╥╔╗╔╗╔╗──╥╔╗──╔╦╗╥╥╔╗──
║─╠╣╠╣║║╚╗──║╚╗───║─╠╣╠╝──
╚╝╨╨╨╨╚╝╚╝──╨╚╝───╨─╨╨╚╝──
╔╗╦╗╥─╥╥──╔╦╗╔╗╥╥╔╗──╔╗╦╗╔╗╥╥╥╔╗╔╗
║║║║║─╚╣───║─║─║║╠╝──╠╣║║╚╗║║║╠╝║─
╚╝╨╨╚╝╚╝───╨─╨─╚╝╚╝──╨╨╨╨╚╝╚╩╝╚╝╨─﻿﻿


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## gen.ahab

darkreever said:


> Thats an understatement; nearly wiping out two legions and shattering a third. The Iron Hands might have only come with Ferrus Manus and the forces he had with him at the time, but the drop site massacre did wipe out the head of the Iron Hands and a very large portion of its veterans.


True but the heresy was ultimately a failure. I attribute a large portion of the credit for the success of the imperials to the fiasco with Isstvan III. 

But, anyway, that’s off topic. TBH it seems like most people hate them simply because others like them... odd.


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## Starbuck

I don't hate them just dislike them. Seems to me they are bland i mean they are all heroic and junk, but where is the darkside, the intrigue? Plus they have 6 characters in a shared dex where other dexes dont have that many in thier personal dexes.


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## Ultra111

I love the ultramarines, one of my favourite chapters! Sure they may be overplayed (in some areas, not mine though) and are the main feature of the codex, but it makes more sense to have a 'poster chapter' than not to, I think. 
Plus it had to be _a _chapter, and ultrasmurfs got that. The fluff is excellent, and the UM omnibus was a great read, although battle fo the abyss was a bit of a let down. The additional characters they get is cool as well, but it's understandable how non-ultra players find this annoying as then their armies can be underpowered, or just that they have a lack of IC's. Don't most races have a bigger 'faction' than others? Like ork goffs for example?
I think they did more than their fair share during the heresy, and if they were not ordered by horus, who they thought was still loyal to the big E, I'm sure they would have been at the palace as well. They dealt the word bearers a massive blow, and reduced them from the imperial palace siege, so they helped there. And of course the how many years the scouring was, were as baron said, they carried the Imperium.
I don't have a problem with the fact they are 'poster boys'. someone had to do it, so I don't let it bias my opinion. And I like their colour scheme!

Can't think of any more pro-smurf opinions at the moment


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## Narik

I kind of get the impression from going into GW stores that a lot of the players hate ultramarine players because that's what the majority of the new players to the game start out as. I also find a lot of the people to have a smug arrogance of superiority over people who chose to play the "posterboy" race in the 40k race rather than one that is slightly nuanced in it's play style.

-Narik


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## Cadian440th

I'm of an opinion that tells me to like the ultramarines but if I ever play marines (might be coming sooner than I think) I would want to paint them white for some strange reason, maybe i'll wash them blue


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## neilbatte

I have a love hate relationship with ultra marines, I hate the mess of blue plastic and glue that so many noobs stick down on the table for a battle and the way they're so overhyped by gw.
I love the fact that they're blue and so easy to paint I can knock out a decent army in a week or so (especially if people are paying me for them.


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## hellsteath

For me it was the simple phrase in the Marine codex, "there are many other chapters that obey the codex astartes but the greatest are the ultramarines" or words to that effect, GW also continue to refuse to expand the background of my beloved space sharks, we are a bloody 2nd founding chapter and we dont even know who founded us..... mutters....


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## cragnes417

I like the ultramarine's i never talk crap to them there okay. I believe ppl don't like them is becouse they think there to perfect in way's I mean they don't really have flaws in ways like there other chapter brothers and also there looked upon nearly everthing starting with space marine's


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## morfangdakka

I have a love/hate affair with ultras for one thing in my area they are terribly over played by just about every player so most of the games are against the boys in blue. however, I did call my deathskullz orks the Bloo Boyz with most of their stuff looted and taken from ultras so I just hate they are over played other than that I don't mind them. They die really easy.


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## WarlordKaptainGrishnak

Also as a point, saying Ultramarines are dumb cause they have so many new characters in the new codex and the other get Squat is bad arguement. Considering the Codex itself says anyone can use it. Essentially taking Telion and calling his Snipey santa is the same as deciding to take a Tactical Squad and call it a Flower-pickers squad. It's all very flexible.

Grish


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## Davidicus 40k

Lorewise, I have no problem with 'em. Gamewise, it is what it is, but if they're easy pickings, you'd assume most people would love them. But I can understand fighting them all the time would get annoying. Blue is EVERYWHERE!!!


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## Acoustico

I'm an extreme person that likes extreme things, never neutral and unchanged things, Ultramarines have the normal codex (and I know, mostly all the other chapters too, but Ultramarines are on the codex and in most of the fluff) and they are just everywhere, but just too natural, too normal.
I know they might be awesome for beginners because they are very very simple to play with because they don't get much special rules etc., but I just don't like them.
I mean, I'm all about the special fluff and the special rules and the Smurfs have none 

And also, they hate Tyranids, and I'm playing Tyranids, so yea :nono:


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## The Sullen One

Varakir said:


> What i think irks me about them is that they lure new players into their trap, baiting them like internet predators.


Surely they're not that bad?

The Ultramarines just happen to be the most prominent example of the way GW has a chosen faction for each of it's armies. The Black Legion does the same for Chaos Marines, as do Goffs for Orks.

Beyond that they're a fictional construct, and there's little point hating something that doesn't actually exist outside of the realms of fiction.


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## Protoss119

The only big reason I have for disliking the Ultramarines is because of...well, the passage in the 5th Edition Codex under "Codex Chapters", which I will not repeat here. Suffice to say, you know the one I'm talking about.

The message I got out of the passage was not that "Ultramarines are the Best" - I could accept that just fine and still play some other chapter, to be perfectly honest - but rather, "Anyone who isn't Ultramarines, doesn't follow the codex, or isn't descended from Roboute Guilliman can kiss the Emperor's posterior, and anyone who _is_ kisses Marneus Calgar's posterior".

It is as though the 40k setting is now starting to bend to the will of the Ultramarines - that's a big no-no in my book. Although, it's probably best to mention here that I as of yet only have the SM Codex, so...

The "Temple of Correction" listed on page 15 of the Codex also draws some of my ire. According to the Ultramarines, there's enough adamantium and durasteel involved in its construction to build a sizeable warfleet. Somehow the Imperium can spare adamantium and durasteel for some temples dedicated to the Ultramarines, but not for their warfleets. Somehow the Ultramarines and their fancy temples are more important than keeping the Imperial Navy in fighting shape. It just comes across as illogical to me is all.

But to be perfectly frank? If I didn't have to deal with those two things, I'd be perfectly fine with the Ultramarines. GW can play them up as "the best" as much as they like - personally, I don't give a hoot about playing "the best" chapter, fluff-wise. But when they start bending the galaxy to the whims of the Ultramarines - it never ends well, whenever anyone tries that in general.


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## Orochi

You only ever hear bad press unless you ask for something.

In other words, it seems like alot of people hate the ultramarines, as its those with a negative oppinion who speak out (We humans love shooting something/someone else down). They often feel that there is justification to do so, because if we 'hate' something it is always justifiable, consequently, to confirm this justification, they must relay/orate it to other people. People who, with a reason to unite, will all join in.

People with a passive to high oppinion of the ultramarines don't see this as relevant. There is no need to announce their oppinion for the ultramarines unless asked or feel that they must step in and defend the ultramarines. The latter being unusual, as people like to avoid trouble in all forms, so unless asked, those who do like the UM's will not voice their oppinion. Being 'Asked' to pervey their oppinion, via an invitation to a discussion (A place where all views are singular and all of the same strength) gives those who would normally stay quiet a chance to have a say, rather than risk it in another place and face 'mob tactics' and stave off numerous people with the opposing view.

Simple Psychology really


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## darkreever

You know thats actually really good Orochi, didn't notice it until you posted that. I mean take a look around the threads and the people who ahve posted here; as an example notice the, probable, hatred of Ultramarines from the likes of Vali Thunderaxe and GrizBe elsewhere but the lack of their voices here.


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## Orochi

Because it is a direct question that puts everyone on equal standing. Each and every persons view is valid and will be assimilated in the same fashion.
So the 'I hate UMs' group is split up. Yes, they can still agree with one another and form arguement alliances, but no-one really cares, because the question was WHY do people hate the ultramarines, not HOW MANY PEOPLE hate the ultramarines.

The 'Posterboy' arguement is pretty rotten too. I'm not convinced in it's entirity at all. All it really means is that players of more than 18 months get sick of being challenged by players of around 3 days, to battle. The Predictable army of 2 Tactical squads, a landraider, and souped up commander and some terminators takes the field against their carefully chosen, well thought out force.
Yes, it's a battle I get sick of playing. But if I'm half as good at this game as I think I am, beating a new player with a textbook army should be easy no? And everyone watching the game will see that. OR, I can try new tactics or simply be a good sport and help the newer player with tactics and whatnot. This, 1. Means theres a new player gaining experience from my 14 years or so of the hobby, and 2. Means I'm a lot less likely to be placed with the next new kid on the block next time around.

I would much rather play a 12 yr old with his text book army of 'posterboys' than some of you arrogant pricks who think because you've mastered the 'Lash/Plague/oblit' list or The Eldar 'DAVU' list, that you are the best player under the sun.

Fuck off. If you're so good, then pick up a different army or run something that isn't obviously and internationally known as broken. Show some skill instead of being the 'competitive' wastes of time that you are.

Rant over


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## darkreever

Absolutely beautiful, now more than ever I want to see something from some of those people on why they actually hate the Ultramarines.

Ultimate positive rep from me.


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## gen.ahab

Unfortunately, most of the people who actually hate the UM do so for reasons that were mentioned in his post and shown to be less than stellar.


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## darkreever

Yes I know, guess my loving of that got the better of my judgement. I mean how many people are going to come here and give horrid reasons for why they dislike the Ultramarines and make fools of themselves when they can stay silent and then in time band together again with their hatred.


I will say this though, at some point in the future I will once again paint at least a squad all Ultramarine.


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## unixknight

I don't really have strong feelings one way or the other, but I think I can offer some insights.

For the record, when I first started 40k in 1989 I played a generic SM army. Later, I went Ultramarines, and now I play Black Templars and have incorporated some of my old army minis into my current force by stripping and repainting them. It's even part of my fluff that a small force of Ultramarines fought alongside the Black Templars XVI Crusade and bonded so closely as brothers in arms that special dispensation was granted and those elements of the Ultramarines were incorporated into the Crusade as full fledged Black Templars. My Company Standard displays the Ultramarines' symbol to honor that.

Having said that, I'll comment on the hostility.

Ultramarines are generally regarded as the prettyboys of the Astartes. Whether justified or not there's a perception that they sat out the bulk of the Heresy and still had the gall to come in and assume control, dictating the terms of the Codex Astartes even though it was other Legions who had to do the bulk of the fighting. In that sense, they're victims of fluff.

But here's another point that's worth thinking about. Ultramarines are regarded as the finest tacticians in the Imperium, and yet there is absolutely *NO* difference between the Ultramarines and, say, the Salamanders or Crimson Fists or even the Imperial Fists in terms of rules. On the tabletop, the only thing that distinguishes an Imperial Fist army from an Ultramarine army is the color. Despite this, the legendary tactical skill is all about the marines in blue.

Granted, that's mixing rules with fluff in a way that doesn't really make sense, but again, this is a matter of perception. There really isn't a rational argument to be made against the Ultramarines.

Having said all that, I do have one complaint... The name. Ultramarines 'cause they're marines painted ultramarine blue? (Yes, for those who didn't know that's an actual shade of blue that existed independently of Warhammer 40,000.) It's sort of like a bad pun that probably heralds back to the earlier days of GW when things were more whimsical and silly. I think that's the real problem, even if most people aren't really aware of it :grin: The very name of the Chapter is a play on words and yet they're supposed to be honored as the ultimate Imperial badasses? Not so much.


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## Varakir

The Sullen One said:


> Surely they're not that bad?


There was a slight hint of sarcasm in with the 'internet predators' bit 

The point i was trying to make is that the starter box and SM codex is very weighted towards the UM's, and it has a tendency to sway new players into starting a UM force. There's no problem with that, it would just be nice if the starter box and codex could do a better job promoting all armies and chapters, so the people who really like UM's can play them, and the people who would rather play necrons or imperial fists don't paint up 3 squads of UM's before they realise they don't like ultramarines that much.


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## De Cole Train

Khorothis said:


> UMs are called the best of the best, even though it wasn't them who held the gates of the Imperial Palace. It was the Imperial Fists, the Blood Angels, and the White Scars who stood their ground against all the killy things Horus could muster.


Well, they may not have participated in the battle but they did play a crucial role in the battle, on their way to Terra they destroyed all of the chaos reinforcments so they did do a good bit of damage. Also, they were the only chapter left at full strength so Roboute and his Ultramarines bore much of the burden of holding the Imperium together whilst the other chapters regained their numbers.


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## Justindkates

I can't hate on them they were my first army back in 2nd ed. 

The store I play at only 1 guy runs UM, I see a lot and I mean a lot more SW and BA players.


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## Lord Rahl

Thing is you guys have got to remember is they havnt always been the poster boys, 2nd ed it was the BA and then in 3rd and 4th ed is was DE and IF.


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## darkreever

I thought they were the poster boys starting 4th edition? With it being the Crimson Fists in third, or at least thats who was featured on the cover back in third.


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## gen.ahab

THinking You are right.


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## Baron Spikey

They were also poster boys in 2nd Edition- but then again instead of Codex: Space Marines it was called Codex: Ultramarines (it still encompassed most chapters though).


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## rokar4life

Okay, where do you guys play? I've only seen two, count it TWO ultramarine armies and I've been to several major competitions.


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## coalheartly

matt ward. that is all


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## Tzeen Qhayshek

I have decided that the focus of my life will be to challenge and crush every Ultramarine army I encounter.


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## 5tonsledge

*Death To The Emperor*



Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> I have decided that the focus of my life will be to challenge and crush every Ultramarine army I encounter.
> I have and will continue too for years to come.


but yea i hate the ultra marines along with every other loyalist army simply because they are necrophiliacs, ha ha you love your corpse god a little too much.


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## Tzeen Qhayshek

5tonsledge said:


> but yea i hate the ultra marines along with every other loyalist army simply because they are necrophiliacs, ha ha you love your corpse god a little too much.


Loyalists suck all around, but that is my inner Slaanesh talking.


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## 5tonsledge

Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> Loyalists suck all around, but that is my inner Slaanesh talking.


yea go slaanesh anyone of you loyalist ultramarine guys just paint them Pink and Black and play the real children of the emperor.



ps.. the slaanesh emperor is slaanesh


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## Waaagh_Bong

The defence of Hive Hades is when i strated to not like the Ultramarines, Blood Angles and sally-manders. 
We have small groups of friends that tend to buddy up b/c they all like the SM or IG armys, another group is a large mob of tau-cow lovers. Its really funny when we run into each other at taco bell or something lol we like to do a little trash talking just for good sport. LOL another guy has a necron bumper sticker "My other car is a Necron Monolith"


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## gen.ahab

Says the slaaneshi. We like something that was once alive and you like something that has never lived and wants to eat your soul.... We all have our little problems.


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## 5tonsledge

wait what slaanesh is the good of free love we dont fuck our god we just simply fuck everything else.


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## gen.ahab

Who said anything about fucking?


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## 5tonsledge

well maybe thats just slaanesh....lol, whatever man


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## Tzeen Qhayshek

5tonsledge said:


> well maybe thats just slaanesh....lol, whatever man


Slaanesh is more of the God of self-indulgence, drugs, and rock-n-roll.


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## 5tonsledge

depends on what you want to indulge yourself with


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## Bayonet

I used to have a liking for Blood Angels and the Dark Angels for their interesting Lore thinking like most seem to that the Ultras are just bland. Then I read the Ultramarines Omnibus and I saw theres alot more too them so I read the next 3 books in the series and wiki'd up on them and realised that actually I really like them!

Since then, it's been love for all things blue!


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## Syko515

in all honesty, Ultramarines are a fluff enriched army built upon solid rules and decent codeci. as much as i TRY to hate them for my armies sakes, i am not able to and i really have to blame Garham McNiell for that one. i had always felt they where a good army but until i read his omnibus, and the storm of iron book tieing the boys in blue to my iron warrior's i had always felt they lacked character. thanks to Mr. McNiell i was prooven this is not the case.

do not misake me though, as my Tyranids OR Word Bearers will gladly crush the life from any foe, ultra or not!


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## search116

There are only two reasons that I dislike UM
1. Soon as I walked into my local GW one of the employees imediatly tried to shove them down my throat

2. At E-3 when they unveiled the wh40k mmo the spokesman was guarded by ultramarines(psh shouldve been imperial fists)


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## 5tonsledge

thats just how its going to be they are the movie stars of 40k


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## SGMAlice

Poster Boys Poster Boys Poster Boys.......

To this day i have never even opened the pots of Blue that i own
Much less use it to paint ANY of my models...

I dont hate them i just hate the freqency at which they are thrown around

SGMAlice


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## Skitarii

i love Ultramarines!


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## Tzeen Qhayshek

Skitarii said:


> i love Ultramarines!


Of course you do you corpse-worshiping loyalist dog!

To put this into perspective, though, what attracted you to the Boys in Blue? Was it their heroism? Their history? Or their dashing good looks?


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## 5tonsledge

Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> Of course you do you corpse-worshiping loyalist dog!
> 
> To put this into perspective, though, what attracted you to the Boys in Blue? Was it their heroism? Their history? Or their dashing good looks?


ditto to that


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## Cyklown

I dislike them, but their dashing good looks _still_ draw me in.


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## Tzeen Qhayshek

I have heard. on multiple accounts, that a many gamers have been drawn to Calgar's bedchamer...


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## gen.ahab

Silly fool, Calgar and the ultrasmurfs do not sleep. They are far to buisy putting their great blue boots up chao's ass to sleep. You don't become the best of the best by sleeping on the job.


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## Tzeen Qhayshek

You see, the Emperor's Children like that boot...

ANYWAYS.

I have a Company's worth of Smurfs at my LGS to slaughter. YES.


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## SGMAlice

Tzeen Qhayshek said:


> You see, the Emperor's Children like that boot...


 Kinky....
Swing that way do they? 
Or is it just a chaos as a whole thing

SGMAlice


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## Tzeen Qhayshek

SGMAlice said:


> Kinky....
> Swing that way do they?
> Or is it just a chaos as a whole thing
> 
> SGMAlice


Oh you know, entire planets dedicated to pleasure can make any person sway their opinions...


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## SGMAlice

Ah yes! those eponomous pleasure planets...
Interesting concept
And i'm sure their fun too 

SGMAlice


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## Tzeen Qhayshek

SGMAlice said:


> Ah yes! those eponomous pleasure planets...
> Interesting concept
> And i'm sure their fun too
> 
> SGMAlice


Unless you enjoy all measures of sexually transmitted diseases!

I HATE ULTRAS.


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## Baron Spikey

-If you hate Ultramarines, then tell us why. Don't keep repeating the fact that you hate them and then hold a nonsensical conversation.

Baron


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## DestroyerHive

Don't worry! The Arch-Arsonist of Charadon is going to krump the entire Ultramar (not the gas stationk Segmentum soon enough, now that the beloved Tyranids came into the picture.


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## Cruor99

Personally, I don't dislike the Ultramarines. I do, however, dislike their current portrayal - as emphasized by this little thing from Matt "Spiritual Liege" Ward:









I am, in fact, drawn to them in a way. And that's coming from someone known as the arch-heretic in his area  
I just prefer their sound and reasonable ways of warfare. I mean, one of the reasons the Ultramarines were great was because they were one of the few legions to go with a flexible chain of command. Take the Fists for example, all one had to do was take one sniper, take the one without a helmet (officers never wear helmets, of coruse  ), and the chain of command would be broken and the unit would be worth nil. Getting the job done in a sensible manner is much more appealing to me than charging headlong into battle in some wild berzerker rage. This is also why I play the Black Legion, only chaos Legion to actually get shit done!


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## Boganius Maximal

I originally disliked them for the pure fact that they are pretty much the marketting face of 40K and you see them everywhere. Then when I staarted learning about the 40K universe I found out they were basically the "little miss goody twoshoes" of 40K and dislike spawned into hatred. Things did a u-turn when i decided to endure the Ultra Marines omnibus and discovered that I wasnt enduring it but thoroughly enjoying it. 
So all in all I do like the Ultramarines but I would never build an army of them


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## Pekolie

Its cuz little kids play them according to my Bud. Last time i checked i was 4 months older than him though. But yeh as another ultramarines player i would like to know why each and every player frowns at me when they first learn i play Ultramarines.


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## darkreever

Before I mentioned that at first I did not like the Ultramarines, didn't go into that much as to why though. Most of my reasoning behind not liking them was misconception, mostly from my own doing.

Originally I had perceived the Ultramarines as a legion that took their sweet time getting back to Terra during the Heresy. When they arrived they were to late, the Imperium was in pieces and the traitors were fleeing, so Guilliman took the opportunity to reshape the Imperium as he saw fit, essentially taking control as Horus had previously attempted. Dorn saw this and opposed these changes, but was forced to stand aside because between the two he had the weaker of forces, and would only serve to further divide and damage the Imperium.

Move forward in time a bit and you have the Ultramarines going against the Emperors Children. He fights daemon Fulgrim one on one and though he holds his own for a time, ultimately he is wounded and defeated.

Now jump to the relative present, where you have someone like Calgar who led the fighting and defeat of a tyranid hive fleet, even managing to beat it off of the Ultramarine homeworld with what looked like relative ease. Yeah he lost the first company protecting the polar caps, but they killed off damn near every remaining tyranid on the planet in the process. With just about everything they have done, the Ultramarines came out on top.


So lets look back on all that, and the truth of it all from the fluff.

Took their sweet time getting back to Terra? Hardly. Horus was clever, and before Istvaan he made sure to divide the forces he knew would not join him. Knowing that Lorgar was with him, Horus set a trap for the Ultramarines, sending them to their empire of Ultramar where they would be attacked and destroyed by the Word Bearers. This destruction they managed to avoid, and Guilliman took everyone he could and raced to Terra. For those who are wondering, heres a link to a map of the 40k galaxy, notice the location of Ultramar and the location of Terra. Its half the galaxy away, that is months of warp travel under good conditions, and this was never the case during the Heresy. In order to further aid the traitors, the chaos gods caused widespread warpstorms that made travel nigh-impossible to further isolate the loyalists.

Well that blows sweet ass time out of the water.

Next up, Guilliman taking over the Imperium as the traitors fleed. Once again not even close; with the traitor fleets falling back, the loyalists needed to act. However rather than consolidate and unite, they fractured. Dorn, Khan, and Russ took what forces they had and went on crusades to ease their consciousness's for their collective failures. Johnson returned to Caliban and things happened their, Corax was desperately looking for some way to rebuild the Raven Guard to come to the Emperor's aid. That left the Salamanders and Iron Hands, weakened or crippled from the massacre, the Blood Angels, mourning the loss of their primarch and ready to push the traitors back, and the Ultramarines, largest legion with relatively few scars because they got lucky.

No one else was stepping up to keep the traitors running, so Guilliman, the one with the fleet and soldiers, he did it while two of his brothers were essentially MIA and three buggered off. For more than five years the Ultramarines pushed the traitors, losing more than 90% of their number in the process, and only after this did Guilliman look to rebuilding.

Once again no one else was stepping up, not even the still recovering and still mortally wounded Emperor. So Guilliman acted, for the betterment of the Imperium such that no one person, no one primarch, would ever be able to wield a power like Horus for no one, save the Emperor, should have. The Heresy was a testament to this fact, and Guilliman was mostly right in his action. He split the fighting forces of the Imperium, rebuilt what had been destroyed, gave power to normal men and not the astartes, something the Emperor had already begun to do.

Dorn opposed this of course, but he had done little in these last few years, hell he would even walk into a trap laid down by the Iron Warriors and have to be saved, but still he railed against these changes. But then, maybe it was not Guilliman's place, but no one had given him any other choice or alternative but to act.


Then the fight with Fulgrim, he did not just take him on, one on one; Guilliman was caught by surprise, all but ambushed by his daemonic brother. Oh he eventually lost the fight, but he did not meet him on the field of battle and hold off others from helping him.


Jump to the first Tyrannic war and Calgar; relative ease? Hardly. They were fighting an enemy from beyond known space, something that had sweeped through world after world with only a little truly known about them. It took the combined forces of the entire Ultramarine chapter and fleet, the remnants of any force that escaped the encroaching hive fleet, the bulk of the fleet of Ultima Segmentum that could be spared, and they were still beaten back to the very homeworld of the Ultramarines. Easy, anything but easy from the looks of it. 

Even Calgar nearly lost his life, over the course of things losing all his limbs and half his face; being nearly killed by the Swarmlord and losing a portion of the honour guard just so that he might live. Yeah, sounds like an easy time, especially because only the loss of the first company, you know an entire company of terminators, is what is mentioned.



At first I disliked them through ignorance, thinking I had some good reasoning, some valid arguments against them. Look into what you know sometimes, and the truth can be an interesting thing. All of my hate, my dislike, it was misinformed. Though at least I can say this, unlike some I have seen, at least my misinformed reasons were better than the weak ones some people come up with.


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## SGMAlice

Firstly, +1 Rep for a determined and passioante defence, worthy of the Ultramarines.

While i claim ignorance of most of what you have written, despite starting with Vanilla Marines, therefore having the Codex for them, i hope i can count myself out of the 'weak reasons'. I just tend to dislike things that get too much air time.

They certainly are a chapter worthy of respect and admiration for what they have done for the imperium, not unbridled and unfounded hate.
I will claim misinformation but stick to my guns on the poster boys thing. 

SGMAlice


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## gen.ahab

Wonderful, we seem to have a reformed convert. Welcome to the club.

Edit: at dark.

Edit edit: in defence of the wolves, they didn't have much left to help with.


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## Tzeen Qhayshek

I must say, darkreever, that is a compelling arguement. An argument that has shifted my opinion of them greatly.

I also have to claim ignorance here. I can't say I was aware of all the events, more specifically during the Heresy. That was interesting to know, and it made my respect increase for them. They are a tested Chapter and worthy of their name. I have no qualms with their fluff anymore.

However, I just dislike how they are presented. They are portrayed as "Like you had a choice? Run Ultramaines!" Many a new players would be instantly absorbed by this. Not all, but many. That just doesn't seem fair to the armies themselves. Everything has a rich history, not just the battle-tested Ultramarines. 

Maybe my anger should be more directed at the company and not their fluff.


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## LukeValantine

I agree, the over whelming hated towards UM has less to do with the fluff, and more to do with jaded older players supreme distaste for GW and their damn UM's (This list includes anyone who plays armies that haven't been updated in 5 years). Still I always had a soft spot for UM's, after all they are the favorite target for my chosen squads 5 plasma's gun salute.


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## slugsung88

In my opinion, you really can't go wrong with space marine. I hate their blue default color scheme though. I much rather have them as the "Blood Raven" and red just seem more like a Badass color. Nevertheless if I get a space marine army, I'll paint them like the white troop in star war. White and yellow or green for the color of their eye. 

Not to mention they have some of the coolest HQ and variety in the game.


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## hungryugolino

Ultramarines are over-hyped poster boys, and some of their recent fluff is truly absurd. (Matt Ward evidently has a fetish he's not telling the rest of us about, because there's no other explanation for the nonsense in their 5th edition codex.)

Any other arguments against them are inevitably derived from this.



There, I said it.


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## gen.ahab

Opposed to the crap covered in any other codex.


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## JDMJapan

They are everybodys army. So 90% of the time, If someone plays Ultramarines, and if someone comes over, than it can make you look like a newbie. But a Tyranic Kill Team? HELLZ YEASH


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## VanitusMalus

Yeah I hated Space Marines in the beginning, because that's all everyone played and I played Imperial Guard, Eldar, and Orks and until I was good enough I use to get my ass handed to me quite often, even by new players because sorry when the majority of your army has 3+ saves it makes it pretty easy to handle other armies, now as the rules have changed and Codexes have been given much needed updates it has made it a bit more dificult for the Boyz in Blue to be as easily handled as once before. I use to tell people Eldar are to Surgical Knives as Ultramarines are to Sledgehammers.


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## Cruor99

hungryugolino said:


> Matt Ward evidently has a fetish he's not telling the rest of us about, because there's no other explanation for the nonsense in their 5th edition codex.)
> 
> .


But, he did. Go back a few pages to my post.


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## Sanguinary Dan

For me personally it was always because they were GW's poster boys. On the cover of everything, finest, noblest, blah blah blah. So it was like despising the Dallas Cowboys for being called "America's Team". As if we had to be fans even if our home town team was a rival. Now it's also because they are in a godforsaken stupid codex that allows Tigurius and Vulkan (or Shrike or Khan or...) in the same list. And as long as you paint them purple (or whatever) it's legal. 

It's obviously the Ultramarines fault that silly crap like that is legit.:wink:

Then again I'm still offended that you can have Tzeentch and Khorne in the same army.:crazy:


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## Protoss119

Cruor99 said:


> Personally, I don't dislike the Ultramarines. I do, however, dislike their current portrayal - as emphasized by this little thing from Matt "Spiritual Liege" Ward:


That about sums up my feelings on the Ultramarines. I'd be fine with them if they weren't being painted - in their own Codex, no less! - as Super Duper Death Gods™. Although my current conclusion is that a lot of codices paint their respective armies like that, I can't help but get the feeling that Matt Ward is coming out and telling readers "LOL UR CHAPTERS SUX, PLAY ULTRAMARINES U NUBZ K BAI".

I harbor these same feelings regarding the 5th Edition Blood Angels Codex (although bear in mind I haven't seen the 4th Ed one). Looking at the involvement of the Ultramarines in the Blood Angels' history, especially that concerning the immediate aftermath of the Horus Heresy, I can't help but feel that the Blood Angels are being portrayed as an achievement of the Ultramarines instead of a chapter of its own.

That goes back to my original point about the 40k universe now starting to bend to the will of the Ultramarines. Mr. Ward presents them in such a way that in my view it would seem that the entire setting seems to revolve around them.


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## Tzeen Qhayshek

That is like a slap in the face for a lot of people right there. Are they exemplars of the Space Marines? Of course they are - their Primarch wrote and implemented the Codex Astartes. Are they the *best* Space Marine chapter out there? No, of course not. That is unfair and completely biased. Every chapter has a unique story. I feel they are beyond comparison, as even though they are all alike, they are all very different.


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## De Cole Train

I personally like the Ultramarines because their the most tactically sound chapter of them all, but that dosent nessissarally mean their the best chapter.

The Ultramarines are good at everything but other chapter specialize in a certain type of combat, such as the Black Templars excell at close combat and (fluff-wise) destroy the Ultramarines in close combat though, they are almost near usless in ranged combat while the Ultramarines are better at ranged combat. Just as the Raven Guard excell at stealth, and Imperial Fists excell at siege warfare.


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