# The Custodes



## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

Hello all :bye: im a big fan of the Custodes and everything about them, and in the past i have writen a homemade codex, including a fluff section, artwork etc etc i didnt use grey knight rules as imo grey knights are just astartes and compared to Custodes aint that special  so i was thinking what you guys think the Custodes would use such as weapons and vehicles. Me personally i wrote in my codex jetbikes armed with a power lance of sorts i cant remember the rules i wrote for that, heavy bolters and a few plasma cannons, vehicles consisted of the above mentioned jetbikes a handful of land raiders and the rest of their transport were rhinos. As for personal weapons i had guardian spears (obviously) power swords, power fists and a few rare master crafted weapons, i also wrote up seperate rules for the Custodes as line infantry, companions as elites, termies as elite etc so pretty comprehensive (then again i am a nerd) but what do you think they had and who would win in a straight up battle custodes or astartes :biggrin:


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

constantin_valdor said:


> who would win in a straight up battle custodes or astartes :biggrin:


One on one a Custodes should win every time, though a particularly skilled SM might stand up to them on equal terms. 

Remember, the only reason that marines exist is because it was too time consuming to actually _breed _Custodes. As a more expedient solution the Emperor decided to _manufacture_ marines. He deemed the trade off of a slightly lesser product for a quicker production time as worth it. 

When you consider that Custodes are equipped with the most advanced weaponry and armour available, this just leans it more to the Custodes.

However, I think it's in _Prospero Burns_ that a character observes them in combat, and notices that while they are exceptional warriors, they fight as individuals, whereas marines are trained to fight as a unit.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

One on one in hand to hand combat and ordinary Astarte would probably lose, but a skilled individual might very well be capable of killing an Custode. 

Charging towards each other guns blazing on a large field of battle, the Astartes.


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## Davidicus 40k (Jun 4, 2010)

Well, as far as equipment, they had advanced power armor (but also wore cloaks and leather boots/gloves) and used a sweet combination of polearm and bolter called the Guardian Spear, I believe. They also had jetbike squads and dreadnoughts. 

Just look at them as the Praetorian Guard of Ancient Rome, except Custodians were unswervingly loyal and had no political ambitions. Also, there was never more than one Emperor in the Imperium .

As for who'd win in an Astartes vs. Custodes fight, Space Marines have the numerical advantage - that's what the Emperor created them for in the first place - and are not so inferior as to render that advantage useless (y'know, not like "The Tyranids outnumber us a bajillion to one, but most of them are gaunts that are wimpy cannon fodder. So it evens out!). As a rough estimate, I'd say a Custodian equals 2 or 3 Space Marines in battle, but if you had a hundred Custodians against a company or two of Astartes, the Marines would win.

Without the numbers, the Astartes would lose. One on one, a Custodian would win (though we could go and start speculating if a Chapter Master or Captain faced a Custodian. They'd probably end up killing each other  ).


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## Capt.Al'rahhem (Jan 24, 2009)

In The Horus Heresy: Collected Visions there is evidence of two (different) Grav/Skimmer Rhinos. Whether or not these are prototypes or if they had enough to use regularly is up for debate.


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## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

Davidicus 40k said:


> Well, as far as equipment, they had advanced power armor (but also wore cloaks and leather boots/gloves) and used a sweet combination of polearm and bolter called the Guardian Spear, I believe. They also had jetbike squads and dreadnoughts.
> 
> Just look at them as the Praetorian Guard of Ancient Rome, except Custodians were unswervingly loyal and had no political ambitions. Also, there was never more than one Emperor in the Imperium .
> 
> ...


Interesting point about chapter masters and a custodes fighting, in the first heretic a single custodes takes out 3 astartes including a chapter master then has the b**ls to threaten lorgar, Ven (the custodes) seemed quite confident he could detain lorgar, he also survived a hell of alot of bolter rounds


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

constantin_valdor said:


> i didnt use grey knight rules as imo grey knights are just astartes and compared to Custodes aint that special


I suspect that's not necessarily true.




constantin_valdor said:


> Interesting point about chapter masters and a custodes fighting, in the first heretic a single custodes takes out 3 astartes including a chapter master then has the b**ls to threaten lorgar, Ven (the custodes) seemed quite confident he could detain lorgar, he also survived a hell of alot of bolter rounds


True, but Vendatha was an incredibly skilled Custodian. They're not all like him.


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## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

True, but Vendatha was an incredibly skilled Custodian. They're not all like him.[/quote]

I agree but on martial skill alone the custodes always wins, and as for grey knights just being astartes thats true enough and throw in some psychic powers and anti-demonic wards, but their created the same as astartes just with a little more


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## rafunparked (Feb 2, 2008)

Well the custodes are my favorite part of the entire 40k next to the primarchs of course. Its been stated in many places one on one a custodes is pretty much a badass. And thank you SOOOOO much ADB for making the custodes the badasses they are. I loved A Thousand Sons but damn it if mcNeill didn't make them punks.


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## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

ADB did do a damn fine job of writing the custodes  shame they cant do entire book based on the custodes that i would spend a small fortune on  might have to write and upto date custodes codex lol


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

> i didnt use grey knight rules as imo grey knights are just astartes and compared to Custodes aint that special





Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I suspect that's not necessarily true.


Far be it from me to contradict one of BL's finest, but there's nothing in the new GK codex to indicate they are anything other than pure of spirit, psychically gifted marines . As a matter of fact it states that that's all they are on the opening page regarding their founding. 

Unless it had something to do with the time Titan spent in the warp...

Hopefully we'll see this developed in some of your future work.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

In _Tales of Heresy_, it is stated (by Dan Abnett) that:
_"Generally, custodes were larger and more powerful than Astartes, but the differences were only noticeably significant in a few specific cases. *No one would be foolish enough to predict the outcome of a contest between an Astartes and a custodes*."_

Aaron Dembski-Bowden seems to disagree
In _The First Heretic_, Vendatha kills 3 Astartes I believe, one of whom was a chapter master...perhaps it could be argued that the attack came as a bit of a shock, still it shows how good a high-ranking Custodes is (assuming that the Custodes sent to watch over the Word Bearers were all drawn from the higher circles) 

Argel Tal also always loses to Aquillin in the ring, except once after his possession begins to manifest 

That said, the Word Bearers, if they take after their primarch, might just suck balls at close combat. 

The "lion and wolf" analogy is also brought up. It seems to imply that the a Custodes are better at single combat (fighting as individuals) and the Astartes better at team combat (fighting as a unit). 

In _A Thousand Sons_, the Thousand Sons seem to have a pretty easy time killing Custodes. A single Thousand Son captain uses his psychic powers to kill several Custodes on jet bikes, and Custodes also get shot in the head. A Thousand Son captain is able to destroy two SW venerable dreadnoughts with ease, so Custodes didn't pose much of a problem. Of course, the Thousand Sons are essentially a small legion of librarians. 

Collected Visions has Cutodes massacring Thousand Sons. 

I think the fluff isn't very consistent in this area.


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## oiad (Feb 10, 2011)

Well, well. If history doesn't keep repeating itself. Great little thread with plenty of sources used.

Can't wait for Fantasy Flight to release their Daemon Hunters book. Hopefully it will fill us in on some of these claims.



constantin_valdor said:


> ADB did do a damn fine job of writing the custodes  shame they cant do entire book based on the custodes that i would spend a small fortune on  might have to write and upto date custodes codex lol


Any links to your project? Always love reading them but I'm beginning to fear it's another dex giving them Brother-Captain level profiles with Relic Blades with only a 60 point price tag per model. Sounds funny, but a lot of these Custodes projects do it and I wouldn't feel sorry for the sucker who chooses to play against it.



Khorne's Fist said:


> Far be it from me to contradict one of BL's finest, but there's nothing in the new GK codex to indicate they are anything other than pure of spirit, psychically gifted marines . As a matter of fact it states that that's all they are on the opening page regarding their founding.


Hmm, interesting but I can't place it. Any help?

Still I wouldn't knock the psychically gifted part. Goes a long way...


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

While I would wager in favour of the Custode in a one-on-one fight I would say that a full-scale battle, even at equal strength, would probably be won by the Astartes. This is because a battlefield is where a marine is supposed to be. Custodes, while individually very skilled, are not soldiers; the Astartes are.


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## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

Once i finish the new dex which i will start 2moro msg me ur email address and i'll bomb it across to you, they wouldnt be that strong will work out a proper stat line 2moro at work and will give you a preview then


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

constantin_valdor said:


> I agree but on martial skill alone the custodes always wins, and as for grey knights just being astartes thats true enough and throw in some psychic powers and anti-demonic wards, but their created the same as astartes just with a little more


The Grey Knights are far more than mere astartes. We can look at "The Killing Ground" by Graham McNeill and see that they are superior in every way.

One Grey Knight demolishes both a Captain and a veteran Sergeant in HtH combat without so much as breaking a sweat.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Khorne's Fist said:


> Far be it from me to contradict one of BL's finest, but there's nothing in the new GK codex to indicate they are anything other than pure of spirit, *psychically gifted* marines.


The bold bit is what makes the difference. 

Of course, the Grey Knights have a had a recent overall "weakening" with the new codex, on an individual level. But the bold bit is still what makes the difference. They don't need to be anything other than that: it's what makes them better than anyone else.

Where the Custodians are concerned, I just don't think it's automatically true that they're immediately more powerful or skilled than the Grey Knights. And the Custodians of 40K (rather than 30K) are almost definitely not. They have no armour, and don't even fight; compare that with the secret, psychic elite order of humanity's finest warriors.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

When it comes to the Custodes no longer leaving the Imperial Palace, I feel that this does not, necessarily, have to be the case. The history of the Imperium is mostly undocumented; hell, even something as big as a Black Crusade 'only' talks about a portion of the Imperium, and whilst the Chaos invasion pulls all eyes to it there could be lots of still-important things happening in the rest of the galaxy. Not to mention (even though I'm doing it for the second time) the fact that most of the >10,000 yr history of the Imperium is unexplored.
Which gets me to my point (eventually!). It is not a foregone conclusion that the Custodes are no longer active outside the Palace. There is space, lots of it, for fluff to show them with a new mission and how this came about, without trampling over what has been said before. Unless Valdor was killed during the HH, I can't imagine someone like him allowing his Custodes to become such passive players, wasting the power and authority they wielded as a driving force for the Imperium.
I'm not saying that this is definitely what is going on, fluff doesn't support that, but there's certainly _space_ for this path to meander along.

GFP


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Space? Sure.

But "power and authority they wielded as a driving force for the Imperium"? No, I don't see that.

The power and authority they wielded was as agents of the Emperor, speaking and acting for him (or Malcador, if you will), on his instructions. As a driving force for the Imperium, though? No, I don't see that, either. I don't think we've ever seen examples of Custodes negotiating treaties, determining planetary, system-wide, or sector strategy for governors, etc.

And once the Emperor (and Malcador) were gone, the dynamic of the Custodes changed entirely. On the one hand, their service remained directly to the Emperor. Not the High Lords, not Primarchs, and certainly not to lesser marshals and politicos. On the other, without the Emperor's direct guidance, they had no real tasking, no agenda besides protecting his Throne-mounted corpus. And from yet another angle altogether, the High Lords themselves were probably incredibly reluctant to use them (if not politically prohibited from doing so) on account of what kind of message it would send (to their rivals, if nothing else) to try to order around those who only took orders from the Emperor.

I could see the Custodes still running around and doing their Blood Games as part of their ascension to their station. Beyond that, though? I doubt they're anything beyond a very potent ceremonial guard.

Cheers,
P.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Yes, I wouldn't say the Custodes are without a doubt superior to the GK

GK are all powerful psykers and they tend to demolish "regular" Astartes

If not stronger than Custodes, the GK are either equal or only slightly weaker IMO

in single combat, I don't think a Custodes would have much of an advantage over a GK, if at all


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## LordOfAbsolution (Jul 22, 2009)

I think everyone has pretty much has hit the nail on the head, Custodes have better armour and equipment than Astartes (during their prime in protecting the Emperor and obviously the Emperor wouldn't want to skip on budget for his own personal guard) but through various sources it states that the Custodes were designed for protection and sometimes assassination (super golden ninjas) so I think to repeat everyone else on a one to one basis Custodian skills would surpass marines but if a group of marines prepared for a Custodian then they would most likely pull through and win.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Ive always liked the Custodes, but after the First Heretic, I fell in love with them. The gold armor, the guardian spears, they are awesome. Kickin ass where ever they go! Well almost.

The way I see it, Your space marine is like a basic Honda Civic, then you got your GK who are your Civic EX, many more options, but the actual performance is roughly the same, but then you got your custodes who are your Civic SI which has a lot better components to make it faster.


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## SoL Berzerker (May 5, 2009)

Considering Custodes never leave the Imperial Palace, this battle would never happen unless Chaos reached the palace. In which case it would be CSM vs Custodes. Now, in this case, the Custodes have weapons and vehicles designed only for fighting in the palace, so they have every advantage within the walls if the palace. Considering this, their dreds, weapons, and tanks(if any) are smaller and more compact so they can fight freely within the walls. Any army going into the palace would be destroyed by the Custodes. 

Now, if for some reason the Custodes were fighting a pitched battle, they would lose for the above reason. Their weapons are made only for fighting within the walls. A pre-heresy army would destroy any other chapter because then they would be properly armed and they are stronger than normal Astartes.


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## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Even if the power and authority they use comes from someone else, the Custodes are very good at driving it! They, to any who know of them and even to those who would look upon them, still carry the aura of the Emperor and all he stood for. Now he's not there to speak up, that surrogate authority will be even more potent. This leads to, to my mind, two outcomes.
1- They have taken on a mission that sees them even more secret than the GK. Only the High Lords would ever know what they are doing and only the High Lords would have the authority to order them. These men might even be the _actual_ Custodes who survived the GC and HH. These would be the ultimate group who the Imperium could use to apply intense pressure to the weakest point.
2- Valdor, assuming he lives, realises how much he can affect things because of the reflected glory of such close dealings with the now-God Emperor. Everyone in power wants his endorsement, everyone who wants power wants him on their side. With so many competing views he lapses into inactivity, afraid that as a mere man (compared to his boss) he could never choose the right path for the whole Imperium; the Custodes lapses into inactivity.
I wouldn't be surprised if Custodes teams still patrol the Imperium. To be honest, I'd be more surprised if they didn't, in some form. Same goes for the existence of the Silent Sisterhood- fluff says nowt about them, but they may well still be around, maybe even helping the Custodes!
Please note! I'm not doing a Lux here; I'm not saying that any of what I'm suggesting is backed-up by fluff, it's not. But there's a lot we don't know out there...

GFP


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## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

I still think that custodes of the 41st millennium are still a potent force, just becuase they only guard the palace and throne it doesnt meant that their just a ceremonial guard, their mandate imo was to protect the emperor which is what their still doing, there hasnt been a direct threat to the emperors life for thousands of years but if a threat emerged i would imagine the custodes could crush it quite easily, plus i reckon the captain-general of the custodes be it Valdor or another would still sit in with the high lords of terra as is his right just so they could be kept apprised of the most serious threat to the imperium and if such a threat could pose a danger to the security of the palace, such as if abaddons 13th black crusade succeeded and chaos made it to Terra


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## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

And an update on my dex, most of the fluff has already been covered on lexicanum and though various books so i wont be re-writing that, i'll just be using that as a referance, i will how ever add a few little personal twists such as the custodes having acess to a small number of vessels for travel thoughout the imperium, unique weapons found only in their use etc and anything else i can think of that would fit in line with them being praetorians of the Emperor =)


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Double post = sad panda ^

Anyhow, Apparently the Custode gear was later adapted to serve the Grey Knights So im thinking anyone who wanted to could just use the GK codex and call it "Codex:Custodes" I mean there the samething ability wise, above any other normal marine in skill and equipment and they also have the best weapons for there era. However currently the Custodes are sitting on earth awaiting the emperors return in the palace, there Gold\Red now replaced with Gold\Black. (It is mentioned i think it was in the HH Artbook that the Custodes stop having armor on though....)


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## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

After the heresy they wore black instead of gold and red, they stopped using the guardian spear and now have a similar weapon but instead of a bolter its as las weapon..., they dont wear armour except an all enclosing helm, but i would imagine they still have all their original gear for use if they needed it, and as for my dex i will look at the GK dex and other marine codices for referance as well im not going to make each custodes a superman could beat a daemon by teabaggin him i intend to keep it realistic lol and yes i am a sad panda im at work with nothing to do lol


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

just throwing this out there

GK can use their psychic power to enhance their physical might, i.e. hammerhand, which should be really potent in a single combat situation

there are probably no psykers among the Custodes considering how often they often worked with the Sisters of Silence (I think), probably no blanks either since they were the Emp's personal bodyguard 
of course there maybe have been a few scattered individuals and it was just never mentioned 

and the Nemesis force weapon + storm bolter combo is probably stronger than a guardian spear IMO


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> and the Nemesis force weapon + storm bolter combo is probably stronger than a guardian spear IMO


A better weapon is irrelevant in the hands of someone who will never get to use it.


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## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

I dont believe a force halberd and storm bolter would be better than a guardian spear, as with most weapons its the skill in which you handle it as well that plays a big part in any combat situation, for me the guardian spear would more than likely be able to cleave though power armour quite easily and as for the bolter attachment maybe some upgraded version of the mass reactive round which is in common use by astartes, my logic behind this is simple the were the praetorians of the Emperor and needed they best weapons to be able to defeat any and all enemies including astartes...obviously the emperor wasnt planning on having half his legions turn traitor but my point stands


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Why is the nemisis weapon better? Because a guardian spear is a power weapon, not a force weapon.

Besides, you are simply assuming they are better than Grey Knights, we have nothing that confirms.

Besides, it wouldnt matter if they were since he said that the weapons were better.


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## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

Alot of this is assumption as there are few hard facts stating how tough custodes actually are, if grey knights are better than custodes then why didnt the emperor create a force of knights to protect him? they use a gene seed which means their easier to create than custodes so he could have more of them, there is a reason why the custodes are better than astartes be it by a massive amount or a little =)


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Why is the nemisis weapon better? Because a guardian spear is a power weapon, not a force weapon.
> 
> Besides, you are simply assuming they are better than Grey Knights, we have nothing that confirms.
> 
> Besides, it wouldnt matter if they were since he said that the weapons were better.


Custodes are better than Astartes, that's an established fact in the background. Grey Knights are just Astartes.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Custodes don't have free will, the Grey Knights are an organization that can respond the threats abroad. 

They are more than mere astartes. They are an order of psyker astartes who can use those powers to augment thei abilities. Put them far above the level of an astartes.


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## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

gen.ahab said:


> Custodes don't have free will, the Grey Knights are an organization that can respond the threats abroad.
> 
> They are more than mere astartes. They are an order of psyker astartes who can use those powers to augment thei abilities. Put them far above the level of an astartes.


You raise a good point, but where does it state the Custodes dont have free will to respond to threat? but does that mean they are better than custodes


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> Custodes don't have free will, the Grey Knights are an organization that can respond the threats abroad.


I'm curious about this 'No free will' thing as well, source?

Custodes might not be psykers but they have equipment which makes them totally invisible, which is pretty sweet. And they're all trained in assassination and infiltration as well as just being a badass.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

constantin_valdor said:


> You raise a good point, but where does it state the Custodes dont have free will to respond to threat? but does that mean they are better than custodes


In the founding section of C:GK, I think, though I might be remembering it incorrectly as I wasn't really paying it much attention. 

They are the body guards of the Emperor and are under his direct command. The Gk are an autonomous that is able to respond to external threats much more rapidly, or at all for that matter. It doesn't, just means they can do their job.



Aramoro said:


> I'm curious about this 'No free will' thing as well, source?
> 
> Custodes might not be psykers but they have equipment which makes them totally invisible, which is pretty sweet. And they're all trained in assassination and infiltration as well as just being a badass.


I interpret it to mean they don't have freedom of autonomy due to the fact that they cannot act without the behest of the emperor. 

They are not front line combat troops, however, and they don't function as well as a unit. I put my money on Knights. No one is totally invincible, you might as well say they shit thunder and piss lightning.


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## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

In nemesis, Valdor forms a plan with Malcador and the heads of the assassin clades to terminate horus, he did this without the knowledge of the emperor, in blood games Amon and Haeto (i think thats his name) infiltrate someones palace or building again with out the emperor knowing so he would appear innocent etc etc so the custodes do have free will just unquestionable loyalty to the Emperor


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

gen.ahab said:


> I interpret it to mean they don't have freedom of autonomy due to the fact that they cannot act without the behest of the emperor.


Yes they do, they haven't acted at the behest of the Emperor for 10,000 years. They still do shit, still do their Blood Games, infiltrate places, mess about over the galaxy. 



gen.ahab said:


> They are not front line combat troops, however, and they don't function as well as a unit. I put my money on Knights. No one is totally invincible, you might as well say they shit thunder and piss lightning.


One on one Custodes are better than Marines, this is spelt out. They are not good team players which is a weakness but stand up fighting is what they do.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

constantin_valdor said:


> In nemesis, Valdor forms a plan with Malcador and the heads of the assassin clades to terminate horus, he did this without the knowledge of the emperor, in blood games Amon and Haeto (i think thats his name) infiltrate someones palace or building again with out the emperor knowing so he would appear innocent etc etc so the custodes do have free will just unquestionable loyalty to the Emperor


Malcador was the emperors right hand man. I would assume that Valdor had standing orders to follow the Sigilites commands. I wouldn't be surprised if they were following orders from some higher up as well.



Aramoro said:


> Yes they do, they haven't acted at the behest of the Emperor for 10,000 years. They still do shit, still do their Blood Games, infiltrate places, mess about over the galaxy.


The Emperor gave them orders to ensure his safety; they were simply following his orders.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> Custodes are better than Astartes, that's an established fact in the background. Grey Knights are just Astartes.


Actually, that's not the case. Absent any hard stats, we have to rely on the fluff.

One author has already qualified in a story that Custodes in the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy era were only slightly larger and stronger than Astartes, but that no one could predict who would win in a battle between the two.

Another author has already qualified on his own story by stating that the Custodes in "The First Heretic" were exceptional individuals, and not indicative of the "average". He also offered (opinion, granted) that 40K-era Custodes are not as powerful as 30K-era ones. Any number of reasons could be offered for this, but the two most convincing I can think of are:

1. No amount of training and/or simulation will match actual experience in combat. That's a fact.
2. Over a period of ten thousand years, it's a stated fact that ritual and superstition has become a part of the Astartes creation process, resulting in--among other things--instances of Geneseed failure and/or mutation. There is every reason to believe the same things (or worse) would have happened to the Custodes in the absence of the Emperor, especially given their more complicated creation process.

As for whether the Custodes wander the stars... to each their own, but Codex Imperialis long ago defined the mission of the Adeptus Custodes (an important distinction, since it qualifies them as the post-Heresy organization) as protecting the Imperial palace and providing a 300-man bodyguard (called the Companions) to the Emperor's body at all times. It also specified that, because the Imperial Palace is so vast, that they are a specifically defensive army. Given this, and absent any information to the contrary, I (personally, but, again, to each their own) can't envision the Custodes roaming the stars.

As for their political might (another poster brought this up), I again question this. The Captain-General of the Adeptus Custodes competes with the Lord Commander of the Segmentum Solar, the *Lord Commander Militant of the Imperial Guard*, the *Lord High Admiral of the Imperial Navy*, the Cardinal of the Holy Synod of Terra, the Abbess Sanctorum of the Adepta Sororitas, the Cancellor of the Estate Imperium, and the Speaker for the Chartist Captains for one of the remaining three seats on the Senate of the High Lords of Terra.

I don't know about you, but I can think of at least two guys (hmmm, the guy in charge of the entire Imperial Guard, and the guy in charge of the entire Imperial Navy) who should trump the Custodes commander on matters that define the entire galactic empire of man (as opposed to just what happens within the Imperial Palace).

Cheers,
P.


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## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

good points raised above but with matters of security to the imperium especially those that could provide a threat to the palace the custodes would have to kept appraised, but the 30k custodes could be the same as 40k custodes including those who fought in the heresy, i'd imagine they would be pretty much immortal until death in battle takes them, so if they survived the heresy and then retreated solely to the guard the imperial palace there is nothing to kill them =)


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

constantin_valdor said:


> good points raised above but with matters of security to the imperium especially those that could provide a threat to the palace the custodes would have to kept appraised, but the 30k custodes could be the same as 40k custodes including those who fought in the heresy, i'd imagine they would be pretty much immortal until death in battle takes them, so if they survived the heresy and then retreated solely to the guard the imperial palace there is nothing to kill them =)


We have no reason to believe that. Even astartes are not immortal and they are made with the genetics of demi-gods. There is no fluff, that I know of, that states they are immortal.


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## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

ok i'll rephrase 'functionally immortal' true not one astartes has lived to prove that, oh wait brainstorm! a salamander lived from the heresy to the 41st millenium making him one of the oldest non dreadnought astartes


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

constantin_valdor said:


> ok i'll rephrase 'functionally immortal' true not one astartes has lived to prove that, oh wait brainstorm! a salamander lived from the heresy to the 41st millenium making him one of the oldest non dreadnought astartes


And was so old and decrepit that he was ready to fall apart, if what I have heard is true. They are EXTREMELY long lives, but not immortal. Even if astartes are capable of this, we have nothing that states Custodes are.


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## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

Good point but seeing as the method to create custodes is more advanced its safe to assume they can, also yes that is true he was falling apart but 10,000 years with no medical attention etc and on his own whereas the custodes would have access to drugs, doctors ect all the things needed to extend their lives to the fullest


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

constantin_valdor said:


> Good point but seeing as the method to create custodes is more advanced its safe to assume they can, also yes that is true he was falling apart but 10,000 years with no medical attention etc and on his own whereas the custodes would have access to drugs, doctors ect all the things needed to extend their lives to the fullest


That is entirely possible, but until I have something that confirms it I will not really say they can or can't.


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## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

Fair point all of this is conjecture but its good having a healthy debate with out people getting abusive, you have ur opinions i have mine  hopefully games workshop might release more fluff on them or their own black library book til then i have my own dex yay


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Obviously, half the fun is cultivating our opinions. When a BL author (who used to be a GW writer) comes out and offers that 40K Custodes are almost certainly (I believe that was how he phrased it) not as good as 30K ones, though, that strikes me as qualifying that we're not talking about the same warriors.

Beyond that, I'll say again that the Custodes have their mission. It's centered on the palace and the Emperor's body. The High Lords of Terra, on the other hand, are a body whose concerns lie with _the entire galactic empire._ The Lord Commander of the entire Segmentum Solar doesn't get an automatic seat. His whole job, at the end of the day, is to make sure no one gets to Terra. Before we can even think of the Custodes wondering whether they should be involved, there's a guy (or girl) who has to worry about hundreds of thousands of worlds that serve as a buffer between Terra and the enemy.

See where I'm coming from?

Cheers,
P.


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## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

True but it would be nice to think that custodes from the heresy are still alive and kicking (not literally) well i think im going to start working on the dex now lol any ideas you would like to see in it (just a homemade fan dex nothing serious) =D


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

I have no doubt that Custodes are generally stronger than "mere" Astartes in single combat 

Abnett (_Tales of Heresy_) and ADB (_The First Heretic_) are not in accord on just how big the advantage is, but even Abnett says that Custodes are slightly bigger and stronger 

That said, I don't get know where you guys get the idea that Grey Knights are your run-of-the-mill Astartes

for one thing, GK are all strong psykers
they use force weapons, Nemesis force weapons are supposed to be some of the best, if not the best, force weapons the Imperium has to offer

furthermore, even the geneseed of the GK is different than that of your average joe Astartes 
here's an excerpt from Codex:GK



> *Where other Space Marine chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knight were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul.*


I mean, it's pretty clear that the GK are in a league above other SM.


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## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

Another valid point =P and i know grey knights are above astartes but when compared to custodes can we accurately say who is stronger and better, i think the answer is at the time unanswerable all we have is our opinions and what little fluff is out their regarding the custodes


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

The Custodes were built at a time where the threat of Chaos, the ultimate threat to the mortal races alongside the Ctan, wasn't so widespread.

The Grey Knights were created * solely* with the threat of Chaos in mind and at a time where the Emperor knew he may not survive after his encounter with Horus hence their creation. The Emperor needed something to take over his role as a suppressor of the spreading taint of Chaos.

So when you compare two forces, one created in much safer times and with only a guardian role in mind versus one created in much more dangerous times whose function is to tackle Daemons, it's hard to say the Custodes would fare well in combat against them.

The Custodes are strong, perhaps more so than Joe Shmoe of the Ultramarines but not against a legendary Astartes like Calgar for instance or a Grey Knight, whose lineage is derived straight from the Emperor while with the Custodes I do not think is the case.

Aside from their physical strength, I'd wager a Grey Knight's psychic potential is greater than that of even an Astartes of the Thousand Sons due to their bloodline, their purpose, and their training.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

To me the line "the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that had gone before, and *which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul.*" pretty much states that the GK gene-seed came from the Emperor's own body, either that or they took "normal" gene-seed and upgraded it with the Emperor's genetic material...but "new" probably means totally new, so I think GK gene-seed is just straight from the Emperor 

either way, it would put them on a higher power level than other SM

the GK also use force weapons and psychic abilities that boost their combat strength, like hammerhand (which increases the power of their blows) 

for these reasons, I lean toward the GK, but I agree that we don't have enough info to definitively say which group is actually superior 

we do know for sure that Custodes are generally better than regular SM in single combat (_The First Heretic_ most likely overrides one short story in _Tales of Heresy_), and GK are also better than regular SM (_The Killing Ground_, Codex: GK) 


one area in which I would definitely put my money on GK over Custodes is team combat, In _The First Heretic_ it is explicitly stated that Custodes team-work/discipline is weaker compared to that of Astartes, Custodes fight as individuals, not as a team
(I used to play team basketball, and teamwork is really important in any competition between two groups. I'm pretty sure this is even more true on the battlefield.) 

I don't think GK have this problem, in fact I think GK are even stronger in squads because they have squad-based psychic abilities


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## constantin_valdor (Apr 8, 2011)

i'll agree with you about teamwork they do tend to be lone wolves when it comes to combat in groups but that wasnt their purpose whereas astartes were meant for large scale war and as such needed the bonds of brotherhood and teamwork


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