# C'tan versus Chaos Gods



## Lord of the Night

There is no question that the Chaos Gods are mighty, even the Space marines do not speak their names and if they do then its in a hushed tone. The names of Chaos make people cower in fear or whisper prayers to the Emperor, that wont help them, and Daemons invoke fear on a primal, base level in every race, except the Orks and Tyranids but they dont have fear.

But are the C'tan more powerful?, more feared. They have never left survivors in their wake to know of them, and the Eldar certainly fear them, perhaps more so then Chaos. The Nightbringer is the Grim Reaper to every race, except Orks again, and the Void Dragon could very well be the Machine-God of the Mechanicum.

Chaos has millions of followers, the dread Chaos Space Marines and the legions of Daemons at its disposal. They have scoured entire worlds and corrupted and sacrificed trillions of souls. Each Chaos Space Marine is worth tens, perhaps hundreds, of lesser men and were it not for the rivalries of Chaos then it may very well have toppled the Imperium by now.

But the C'tan have the Necrons, from what we have seen an invincible army. No real victory has ever been won against the Necrons except by the Eldar. The Imperium has lost nearly every battle against them and their only victory at Kronus was only a delay of the inevitable. Plus the Necrons seem capable of tearing the other factions apart, five of their ships made it to Mars and landed before being destroyed, the Farseers of Alaitoc foresaw that their Craftworld would die if the Culexes temple was destroyed, but not by the Imperium but, only inferred never confirmed, the Necrons.

In my view I believe the C'tan are superior and will win. They have the superior servants, are more powerful from the bits we have seen and are much much older. Even the Tyranids fear the Necrons, as all entries about Tyranids make mention of them avoiding certain worlds in the Hive Fleets paths, Tomb Worlds. The Eldar know that the Necrons are the true threat facing everyone and their true numbers have yet to even be glimpsed, an army on the scale of billions, maybe even trillions, could be possible. Not a pleasant thought, unless you play Necrons in which case your rejoicing over your inevitable victory.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

The C'tan and Chaos are Anathema to each other. I would say its next to impossible to directly compare their 'strength'. The C'tan are heavily speculated to be vulnerable to Warp Energy (note the Talismans of Vaul) - which may work as a starting point however.

The Warp, and thus Chaos is the main thing preventing an ultimate C'tan victory. It is what empowers the lesser races (notably the Imperium) and enables them to hold their realms together. The C'tan will likely need to seal the warp off at least partially in order to fully enact their red harvests.

As for a direct conflict between Chaos and the Yngir - one would obviously never happen, given that the Warp Gods have no direct access to the Material Realm and the Yngir don't have any access whatsoever to the Warp. 

The Chaos Gods are known to:



Chaos Daemons Codex Page 14. Daemonic Incursions said:


> For the most part, the Chaos Gods care nothing for the affairs of mortals. They are only concerned with the eternal flow of emotion across aeons.


Thus it can be concluded that if the rise of the Yngir effects 'the eternal flow of emotion' the Chaos Gods would unite and intervene. Utilising their infinite and unstoppable armies to ultimately prevent a Yngir victory. Aside from that at this time the Yngir are weak, their armies are slumbering and their servants are few (hence why the Deciever is trying to utilise the new generation of Pariahs). At the moment the Chaos Gods are in a much easier position to overcome the Ancients, especially considering there are really only 2 active C'tan remaining.

Personally I would say the Chaos Gods are dominant in M41, they are the masters, they are the ones benefitting from the constant warfare more than anyone/thing else. As it is they are in a plausable position to crush the Yngir if needs be, where as currently the C'tan and Necrons are no threat at all to Chaos. Not even the Necron Pylons on Cadia are doing anything, nor will they. They have worked to contain the Great Eye (although this was likely not their initial intention) but most have been destroyed, buckling under the fury of the Warp. 

That being said however it is not clear how strong the C'tan are at their peak, nor how vast their legions of Necrons are, nor what technology they possess. However I still believe that pales in comparison to the might of the Warp Gods.


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## Lord of the Night

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The C'tan and Chaos are Anathema to each other. I would say its next to impossible to directly compare their 'strength'. The C'tan are heavily speculated to be vulnerable to Warp Energy (note the Talismans of Vaul) - which may work as a starting point however.
> 
> The Warp, and thus Chaos is the main thing preventing an ultimate C'tan victory. It is what empowers the lesser races (notably the Imperium) and enables them to hold their realms together. The C'tan will likely need to seal the warp off at least partially in order to fully enact their red harvests.
> 
> As for a direct conflict between Chaos and the Yngir - one would obviously never happen, given that the Warp Gods have no direct access to the Material Realm and the Yngir don't have any access whatsoever to the Warp.


True but the Necrons use weapons that are anathema to the Warp, I dont remember the name but I remember a Necron device that cut off the warp in certain areas.

I would think that is their goal, after restoring their armies. Once the warp is sealed off though the young races have no hope of survival.

Thats mostly true but the Chaos Gods have have limited interaction with the materium. Slaanesh possessed a Blackstone Fortress in the 12th Black Crusade, and all the Great Unclean Ones are technically Nurgle himself and interact with the materium.

On a side note each of the 4 C'tan are the opposite of a Chaos God. Khorne the God of Blood and eternal battle is the opposite of Nightbringer who represents death. Void Dragon who represents machines, everlasting and eternal, is the opposite of Nurgle the God of Decay. Deceiver who represents trickery and falsehoods, yet takes no pleasure in them, is the opposite of Slaanesh the God of Hedonism. Outsider who represents pure madness is the opposite of Tzeentch the God of Change and Knowledge.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Thus it can be concluded that if the rise of the Yngir effects 'the eternal flow of emotion' the Chaos Gods would unite and intervene. Utilising their infinite and unstoppable armies to ultimately prevent a Yngir victory. Aside from that at this time the Yngir are weak, their armies are slumbering and their servants are few (hence why the Deciever is trying to utilise the new generation of Pariahs). At the moment the Chaos Gods are in a much easier position to overcome the Ancients, especially considering there are really only 2 active C'tan remaining.


The question is though could they stop them. If the Chaos Gods united then the C'tan would become aware and unite together as well, plus their legions would awake and do battle. In terms of strength the Necrons would triumph over Chaos, the Necrons legions are unending and can resurrect where the Chaos Space Marines cannot, and the Daemons can be stopped by the C'tans technology. And while only two C'tan are awake and active they are very powerful even in their weakened states, plus its only a matter of time until the Void Dragon is released, and the Outsider will awaken soon enough.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Personally I would say the Chaos Gods are dominant in M41, they are the masters, they are the ones benefitting from the constant warfare more than anyone/thing else. As it is they are in a plausable position to crush the Yngir if needs be, where as currently the C'tan and Necrons are no threat at all to Chaos. Not even the Necron Pylons on Cadia are doing anything, nor will they. They have worked to contain the Great Eye (although this was likely not their initial intention) but most have been destroyed, buckling under the fury of the Warp.
> 
> That being said however it is not clear how strong the C'tan are at their peak, nor how vast their legions of Necrons are, nor what technology they possess. However I still believe that pales in comparison to the might of the Warp Gods.


Right now the Chaos Gods are dominant but the C'tan are growing in strength as well, and are much older and therefore more powerful then the Chaos Gods. Plus those Pylons have been studied and tinkered with by the Tech-Priests, so they are most likely broken.

As for the size of the Necron legions think about the Necrontyr, their life-spans were so short yet the species lived on, they must have had a high birth rate. And considering that no Necrontyr turned away from the C'tan then the entire race joined them, which must have been billions for such a short lived race to have survived their homeworld's cataclysmic conditions.


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## Malus Darkblade

It would be interesting if the chaos powers were keeping the ctan at bay, and preventing them from taking over similarly to how the emperor prevents an influx of daemons from entering the world with his sheer effort.


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## K3k3000

During the war in heaven, the eldar god Khaine combatted and defeated the Nightbringer, albeit to the detriment of the Eldar race. Slaanesh fought most of the eldar gods, including Khaine and the one god stronger than Khaine, and won. In the process, he crippled the most powerful and prolific race in the galaxy, a people strong enough to keep the necron in check.

These events were largely situational, but still serves as a keen insight into the scope of chaos' destructive power, which, even if the C'tan aren't subject to, far exceeds the C'tan's own. If the chaos gods and the C'tan _could_ combat each other directly, I don't doubt that a single chaos god could take all four remaining C'tan and the whole of the necron race without breaking stride.

The C'tan's ultimate goal is to seal off the warp from the material universe. They likely have the potential to do exactly that, but if they fail to and have to contend with the full strength of chaos (held back, I believe, solely by the Emperor), they would undoubtedly lose. Chaos isn't bogged down by the same limitations of the tyranid; flesh is finite by its very nature, but there are potentially limitless demons, some of which have power enough to challenge the necron. Even if it had to engage in a war of attrition, chaos unchecked would certainly defeat both the necron and the C'tan.


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## Yog-Sothoth

The only way the C'tan could kill the Warp Gods would to kill every living thing in the universe, or as is mentioned in the codex cut off the warp in some way, and even then they are just not allowing the Gods in rather than killing them outright.

The C'tan cannot fight the Chaos Gods, only shun them in a way, and I have a sneaky suspicion that the Chaos Gods like there current power and would happily throw the mighty legions of Chaos at the C'tan and destroy them if they became too big a threat.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Lord of the Night said:


> True but the Necrons use weapons that are anathema to the Warp, I dont remember the name but I remember a Necron device that cut off the warp in certain areas.


_The Nexus Arrangement_ is an example of Necron Technology which can cut off the warp temporarily and across a small area. Which yes, is effective against the Chaos Forces, but its not known what resources such technology requires or how much in abundence this technology actually is.



Lord of the Night said:


> Once the warp is sealed off though the young races have no hope of survival.


If the warp is sealed off, yes the younger races obviously wouldn't stand a chance.



Lord of the Night said:


> Thats mostly true but the Chaos Gods have have limited interaction with the materium.


The C'tan have no access to, or interaction with the Warp at all. The Chaos Gods on the other hand have huge amounts of influence and power in the material realm. They have the power to force Warp Rifts/Storms into existence, corrupt individuals, and empower their followers, to name but a few examples. The C'tan have no such power or influence within the Warp.



Lord of the Night said:


> If the Chaos Gods united then the C'tan would become aware and unite together as well, plus their legions would awake and do battle.


Its not that simple. The Chaos Gods unite every few thousand years to take advantage of some occurence or to thwart some threat. The Nightbringer and Deciever are arguably the only 2 active C'tan (The Void Dragon being imprisoned, and the Outsider *possibly* beind in some kind of 'exile').

The Legions of Necrons have largely for the most part become lost to the C'tan, for the time being at least anyway. Many Tomb Worlds are inactive, some have even become independent, ruled soley by the will of the Necron Lords (who in turn in some cases believe themselves to actually be C'tan).



Lord of the Night said:


> In terms of strength the Necrons would triumph over Chaos, the Necrons legions are unending and can resurrect where the Chaos Space Marines cannot, and the Daemons can be stopped by the C'tans technology.


Well the Necron legions arn't uneding, and the fact that the Deciever is gathering slaves in the Mechanicum and harvesting new generations of Pariahs only goes to show that the Necron Legions are dwindled in number. And as long as the Imperium (and other Xenos Factions) endures, there is also an unending supply of mortal Chaos Followers, besides the unending hordes of Daemons.



Lord of the Night said:


> they are very powerful even in their weakened states


The Nightbringer fled from a small group of Dark Eldar and Ultramarines...



Lord of the Night said:


> plus its only a matter of time until the Void Dragon is released, and the Outsider will awaken soon enough.


Well thats an assumption, the Void Dragon may never be released, or at least while the Emperor endures. And the Outsider is essentially beyond comprehension and knowledge, completley insane (if that is a word that can be attributed to a C'tan) and possibly in a position where he cannot directly effect the galaxy for a long time. 

For arguments sake I think its only safe to assume that the Deciever and the Nightbringer are the only two active C'tan, and that will arguably remain so for a long time.



Lord of the Night said:


> and are much older and therefore more powerful then the Chaos Gods.


Them being older (which isn't strictly accurate anyway) in no way makes them more powerful.



Lord of the Night said:


> As for the size of the Necron legions think about the Necrontyr, their life-spans were so short yet the species lived on, they must have had a high birth rate. And considering that no Necrontyr turned away from the C'tan then the entire race joined them, which must have been billions for such a short lived race to have survived their homeworld's cataclysmic conditions.


Indeed, but the limit of the Necrontyr and thus the Necrons is far from limitless. Simply said, its unknown how large the Necrontyr empire was or how many Necrontyr there were. But considering my previous examples shown that the C'tan are gathering new and more slaves, only goes to show that the Necrons are not limitless, and may well be not enough in number to seriously challenge the dominant galatic forces as it currently stands.


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## Warlock in Training

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> _The Nexus Arrangement_ is an example of Necron Technology which can cut off the warp temporarily and across a small area. Which yes, is effective against the Chaos Forces, but its not known what resources such technology requires or how much in abundence this technology actually is.
> 
> 
> 
> If the warp is sealed off, yes the younger races obviously wouldn't stand a chance.
> 
> 
> 
> The C'tan have no access to, or interaction with the Warp at all. The Chaos Gods on the other hand have huge amounts of influence and power in the material realm. They have the power to force Warp Rifts/Storms into existence, corrupt individuals, and empower their followers, to name but a few examples. The C'tan have no such power or influence within the Warp.
> 
> 
> 
> Its not that simple. The Chaos Gods unite every few thousand years to take advantage of some occurence or to thwart some threat. The Nightbringer and Deciever are arguably the only 2 active C'tan (The Void Dragon being imprisoned, and the Outsider *possibly* beind in some kind of 'exile').
> 
> The Legions of Necrons have largely for the most part become lost to the C'tan, for the time being at least anyway. Many Tomb Worlds are inactive, some have even become independent, ruled soley by the will of the Necron Lords (who in turn in some cases believe themselves to actually be C'tan).
> 
> 
> 
> Well the Necron legions arn't uneding, and the fact that the Deciever is gathering slaves in the Mechanicum and harvesting new generations of Pariahs only goes to show that the Necron Legions are dwindled in number. And as long as the Imperium (and other Xenos Factions) endures, there is also an unending supply of mortal Chaos Followers, besides the unending hordes of Daemons.
> 
> 
> 
> The Nightbringer fled from a small group of Dark Eldar and Ultramarines...
> 
> 
> 
> Well thats an assumption, the Void Dragon may never be released, or at least while the Emperor endures. And the Outsider is essentially beyond comprehension and knowledge, completley insane (if that is a word that can be attributed to a C'tan) and possibly in a position where he cannot directly effect the galaxy for a long time.
> 
> For arguments sake I think its only safe to assume that the Deciever and the Nightbringer are the only two active C'tan, and that will arguably remain so for a long time.
> 
> 
> 
> Them being older (which isn't strictly accurate anyway) in no way makes them more powerful.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, but the limit of the Necrontyr and thus the Necrons is far from limitless. Simply said, its unknown how large the Necrontyr empire was or how many Necrontyr there were. But considering my previous examples shown that the C'tan are gathering new and more slaves, only goes to show that the Necrons are not limitless, and may well be not enough in number to seriously challenge the dominant galatic forces as it currently stands.




He said it all. 


Heres the facts. 

Nightbringer (as written) lost to Khain.

Nightbringer in his weaken state RAN from a handful of SMs and DE.

The Necs were force into Hibernation to Warp Base creatures called Enslavers.

The Void Dragon was imprison by the super Psyker known as the Emperor.

The Ctan cannot effect the Warp, at all. Chaos greatly affects the Material.

Tomb Worlds have been destroyed. The Souldrinkers with help from the Mechanus has destroyed a whole Tomb World. Know how Sarpedon beat a Nec Lord? He used the warp to cause the Mahine General fear. Thats right, fear. He then survive the Uber Nec lord after that. Thats a solid victory for the Astartes.

Point being is Necs are badass, but being better than Chaos? No. The Ctan and Chaos Gods at this point in time to fluff are opposits of the same coin.


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## forkmaster

I keep thinking about the Alien Vs Predator catchline: Whoever (xenos, Chaos) wins, we (humans) loose...


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Warlock in Training said:


> The Necs were force into Hibernation to Warp Base creatures called Enslavers.


Just a small correction 

The Necrons or C'tan were not *forced* into hibernation. They chose to. The Enslavers could not effect the C'tan or Necrons directly anyway. The C'tan who much preffered mortal souls to feast on, and enjoyed the concept of being worshipped as gods, were the general reasons why they chose to go into hibernation, to await a time when the galaxy was again teeming with life.


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## LordLucan

Agreed with above.

The bottom line is. The C'tan are easily the most powerful matter-based beings in 40K, bar none. They can pretty much do anything that is possible. C'tan have mastery of the laws of reality.

The chaos Gods are not constrained by the limits of reality. They are the most powerful force in 40K, because while the C'tan have mastery of the laws of reality, the chaos gods can break the laws of reality. There is no way to control or constrain them.


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## Malus Darkblade

LordLucan said:


> Agreed with above.
> 
> The bottom line is. The C'tan are easily the most powerful matter-based beings in 40K, bar none. They can pretty much do anything that is possible. C'tan have mastery of the laws of reality.
> 
> The chaos Gods are not constrained by the limits of reality. They are the most powerful force in 40K, because while the C'tan have mastery of the laws of reality, the chaos gods can break the laws of reality. There is no way to control or constrain them.


The only way Chaos has a foothold on the material realm is to infect a psycher and corrupt him to do their bidding and to serve as a portal for them to enter.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> The only way Chaos has a foothold on the material realm is to infect a psycher and corrupt him to do their bidding and to serve as a portal for them to enter.


Not really.

Firstly the Chaos Gods cannot enter the Material Realm as they are.

The Chaos Gods have huge amounts of influence in the Material Realm. They are able to force Warp Storms into existence, thus allowing Daemonic Armies access to most parts of the galaxy on a whim. They can corrupt individuals/planets/armies/astartes with very little effort on their part, and in this regard have an unlimited supply of mortal Chaos followers aswell as infinite Daemonic followers.

Every single Psyker in the galaxy is vulnerable on some level to the Chaos Gods, every time they utilise their power.

The Chaos Gods have huge amounts of influence in the material realm aswell as being the undisputed masters of the Warp. And as Lord Lucan said, themselves being Warp entities frees them from the laws of reality that bind the C'tan, thus giving them huge advantages.


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## Malus Darkblade

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Chaos Gods have huge amounts of influence in the Material Realm. They are able to force Warp Storms into existence, thus allowing Daemonic Armies access to most parts of the galaxy on a whim. They can corrupt individuals/planets/armies/astartes with very little effort on their part, and in this regard have an unlimited supply of mortal Chaos followers aswell as infinite Daemonic followers.


If so then why do we not see constant Warp Storms being created on their part to allow daemons to infest the physical world?

And why don't we see countless worlds turning to Chaos, more than what we see already?

My understanding of things is that it's because they need a strong link, that link being a psycher worthy of their time and effort to corrupt. That psycher has to be powerful enough to stabilize the link between the Warp and the material realm. 

A short story entitled 'Warped Stars' by Ian Watson from the _Deathwing _compilation comes to mind, where a very powerful psycher boy attracts the attention of a powerful daemon from the warp, and asks him to constantly think of a circle, giving the daemon time to align himself with the psychic link emanating from the boy to the real world.

Once that happens, that person uses his influence on the weak willed and the non-psychic to turn them over to his side promising power and all that jazz if they do.

If the Chaos powers had as much free reign as you're giving them, then every world would fall to Chaos in an instant or on a much broader scale than we've seen so far.

In addition as we know there are forces at work that are keeping the majority of them at bay, primarily the emperor and perhaps other forces are as well, defying them entrance to the material realm from the shadows.

Perhaps the Ctan.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> If so then why do we not see constant Warp Storms being created on their part to allow daemons to infest the physical world?
> 
> And why don't we see countless worlds turning to Chaos, more than what we see already?


Im just repeating what the Chaos Daemons Codex says. But perhaps because the Chaos Gods don't have to act in rational ways by any means. Or maybe because the vast majority of the time they are playing the Great Game in the Warp? Or simply that they do not intend to butcher everyone, considering they know they need mortals to sustain themselves.

But the main reason is the Great Game. Intentionally opening a warp rift expends a fairly significant amount of energy, which could potentially leave the particular god vulnerable in the Great Game, thus it is not done too often or without good reason.



Malus Darkblade said:


> My understanding of things is that it's because they need a strong link, that link being a psycher worthy of their time and effort to corrupt. That psycher has to be powerful enough to stabilize the link between the Warp and the material realm.


Not necessarily, the stronger and more untrained/willed the Psyker the harder to corrupt, but as long as there is a suitable link to the Warp...



Malus Darkblade said:


> If the Chaos powers had as much free reign as you're giving them, then every world would fall to Chaos in an instant or on a much broader scale than we've seen so far.


If they were rational beings then maybe...

And the Emperor seems to be protecting at least humanity from the 'worst depridations of Chaos'.


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## LordLucan

Malus Darkblade said:


> If so then why do we not see constant Warp Storms being created on their part to allow daemons to infest the physical world?


Because chaos is not trying to kill everyone, and isn't trying to defeat the Imperium. It is trying to enhance the emotional extremity of reality.

Also, when the gods' daemons infest the real universe, reality 'infects' them. Liber chaotica explains it like reality starts to impose its laws upon chaos things; fixing their shapes and so on. Daemons can't maintain their existence in realspace permanently. That's our saving grace.



> And why don't we see countless worlds turning to Chaos, more than what we see already?


How many are turning to chaos now? We only see a tiny cross section of the 40K galaxy. How many alien races serve chaos? How many countless warp storms keep cropping up in the fluff? How many rebel worlds are there truly? Many, many, many worlds are turning every day, and warp storms are constantly cropping up.




> My understanding of things is that it's because they need a strong link, that link being a psycher worthy of their time and effort to corrupt. That psycher has to be powerful enough to stabilize the link between the Warp and the material realm.


Also remember that the chaos gods already are being fed by the mere emoting of sentient beings. Manifesting into reality is a passing interest for chaos. 



> A short story entitled 'Warped Stars' by Ian Watson from the _Deathwing _compilation comes to mind, where a very powerful psycher boy attracts the attention of a powerful daemon from the warp, and asks him to constantly think of a circle, giving the daemon time to align himself with the psychic link emanating from the boy to the real world.


Indeed. Not disputing that. However, you're assuming chaos works the same way all the time. In another story (in planetkill), chaos infests an entire world via chaos-tainted life eater viruses, remaking an entire world into chaos zombies. Another story has chaos using tainted shards of glass to spread it's twisted influence. Chaos' methods are infinite.




> If the Chaos powers had as much free reign as you're giving them, then every world would fall to Chaos in an instant or on a much broader scale than we've seen so far.


Chaos is not constrained by logic and causality. However, when they enter into the real world, the 'laws' of reality begin to try and 'fix' warp matter into its laws, while the warp stuff seeks to subvert reality.



> In addition as we know there are forces at work that are keeping the majority of them at bay, primarily the emperor and perhaps other forces are as well, defying them entrance to the material realm from the shadows.
> 
> Perhaps the Ctan.


Nobody's saying chaos is unopposed, just that chaos is not as limited by reality as the C'tan. C'tan cannot do anything that is impossible. Chaos can do anything (potentially)


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## XxDreMisterxX

Nicely Worded Lord Vulcan! mozeltof!


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## K3k3000

LordLucan said:


> Agreed with above.
> 
> The bottom line is. The C'tan are easily the most powerful matter-based beings in 40K, bar none. They can pretty much do anything that is possible. C'tan have mastery of the laws of reality.
> 
> The chaos Gods are not constrained by the limits of reality. They are the most powerful force in 40K, because while the C'tan have mastery of the laws of reality, the chaos gods can break the laws of reality. There is no way to control or constrain them.


While I'm sure there's some truth to this, it seems to imply that the C'tan and chaos gods are omnipotent in their own spheres of influence, which doesn't seem to hold true with what we've seen. The C'tan can weaken and be defeated, other C'tan and significantly powerful entities can and have defeated C'tans. The chaos gods can be restrained via the Emperor, their corruption can be fought, and one chaos god might be more powerful than another. Neither side is omnipotent; they may be so powerful that they may as well be, but both sides clearly have limitations and weaknesses.



> In another story (in planetkill), chaos infests an entire world via chaos-tainted life eater viruses, remaking an entire world into chaos zombies.


chaos _space_ zombies.


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## Shacklock

All Gods ('cept boring modern ones) have weaknesses and not all are omnipotent, the Greek pantheon for example.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

K3k3000 said:


> While I'm sure there's some truth to this, it seems to imply that the C'tan and chaos gods are omnipotent in their own spheres of influence, which doesn't seem to hold true with what we've seen. The C'tan can weaken and be defeated, other C'tan and significantly powerful entities can and have defeated C'tans. The chaos gods can be restrained via the Emperor, their corruption can be fought, and one chaos god might be more powerful than another. Neither side is omnipotent; they may be so powerful that they may as well be, but both sides clearly have limitations and weaknesses.


Well generally speaking (as Lucan said) - The C'tan are (or have the potential to be) dominant in the Material Realm and the Chaos Gods are dominant in the Warp.

Okay, well this in my opinion points to the Chaos Gods generally being more 'powerful'. They are Supreme Warp Beings, and thus not restricted by the laws of physics, or time & space, like the C'tan are.

This in itself places the C'tan at a major disadvantage, however mighty or omnipotent they _seem_ to be, they still have to obey the physical laws of the universe. Aside from that they have absolutley no influence whatsoever in the Warp, it is completley anathema to them.

The Chaos Gods on the other hand are in no way restricted by physical laws (in the Warp anyway), they are supreme and dominant within the warp, cannot be killed, and have huge amounts of influence in the Material Realm. If were point scoring, from this alone I would tally up the Chaos Gods as winning.

On a side note, the C'tan seem to show a vulnerability to Warp Energy (of which the Chaos Gods are masters of), simply because they cannot counter it because its anathema to them. They know that in order to become the dominant ones in the galaxy again, they need to seal off the warp, theres no other way around it. They need to release Chaos' Iron grasp on the galaxy, and render the mortal races next to helpless before their wrath, and they can only do that by sealing off the warp - Something which is entirely within the Chaos Gods' power to prevent them doing.


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## Malus Darkblade

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Well generally speaking (as Lucan said) - The C'tan are (or have the potential to be) dominant in the Material Realm and the Chaos Gods are dominant in the Warp.
> 
> Okay, well this in my opinion points to the Chaos Gods generally being more 'powerful'. They are Supreme Warp Beings, and thus not restricted by the laws of physics, or time & space, like the C'tan are.
> 
> This in itself places the C'tan at a major disadvantage, however mighty or omnipotent they _seem_ to be, they still have to obey the physical laws of the universe. Aside from that they have absolutley no influence whatsoever in the Warp, it is completley anathema to them.
> 
> The Chaos Gods on the other hand are in no way restricted by physical laws (in the Warp anyway), they are supreme and dominant within the warp, cannot be killed, and have huge amounts of influence in the Material Realm. If were point scoring, from this alone I would tally up the Chaos Gods as winning.
> 
> On a side note, the C'tan seem to show a vulnerability to Warp Energy (of which the Chaos Gods are masters of), simply because they cannot counter it because its anathema to them. They know that in order to become the dominant ones in the galaxy again, they need to seal off the warp, theres no other way around it. They need to release Chaos' Iron grasp on the galaxy, and render the mortal races next to helpless before their wrath, and they can only do that by sealing off the warp - Something which is entirely within the Chaos Gods' power to prevent them doing.


On the other hand, the chaos powers are fully dependent on the material realm feeding it raw emotions. Without humanity, the chaos powers would dwindle into non-existence.

The ctan have survived for countless millennium, have an infinite amount of food sources and thus are essentially immortal.

They are the oldest living things in the universe and their back-stories have barely been touched or at least not nearly to the degree with which we see with the chaos powers.

They subjected an entire race to their will, one whose intellects surpass any of the known races in WH40k, and the chaos forces have yet to do so. 

So we don't know what the ctan are really capable of, but their mind-boggling lifespans without a doubt insures that they have something up their sleeve that will tip the scales in their favor if that hasn't occurred already.


----------



## Yog-Sothoth

Malus Darkblade said:


> On the other hand, the chaos powers are fully dependent on the material realm feeding it raw emotions. Without humanity, the chaos powers would dwindle into non-existence.


Although the Chaos Powers do get alot of emotion food from humanity, there are 100's of races in the 40k universe that feel emotion too therefore feeding them.




Malus Darkblade said:


> The ctan have survived for countless millennium, have an infinite amount of food sources and thus are essentially immortal.


However they can be hurt or killed (although this is extremly hard) and the Chaos Powers could only be killed by killing everything that feels emotion in the universe, and I'm pretty sure that is very hard. 





Malus Darkblade said:


> They subjected an entire race to their will, one whose intellects surpass any of the known races in WH40k, and the chaos forces have yet to do so.


They may have enslaved an intelegent race but the Chaos Powers have enslaved countless races across the universe.



Malus Darkblade said:


> So we don't know what the ctan are really capable of, but their mind-boggling lifespans without a doubt insures that they have something up their sleeve that will tip the scales in their favor if that hasn't occurred already.


I can't think of anything they could do to harm the Gods apart from kill everything (which they don't want to, they like harvesting life) or to cut of the warp which would be extremly hard since the Powers would use all there power to stop this from happening.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Yog-Sothoth said:


> Although the Chaos Powers do get alot of emotion food from humanity, there are 100's of races in the 40k universe that feel emotion too therefore feeding them.


The Cabal's vision proves that without humanity they would starve, the other races thus not being a sufficient enough food source.





Yog-Sothoth said:


> However they can be hurt or killed (although this is extremly hard) and the Chaos Powers could only be killed by killing everything that feels emotion in the universe, and I'm pretty sure that is very hard.


Again the Cabal's vision indicates that with the fall of humanity, the chaos powers would perish




Yog-Sothoth said:


> They may have enslaved an intelegent race but the Chaos Powers have enslaved countless races across the universe.



Fully enslaved? I've never read up on entire races being enslaved/converting to chaos, worlds yes but not races.



Yog-Sothoth said:


> I can't think of anything they could do to harm the Gods apart from kill everything (which they don't want to, they like harvesting life) or to cut of the warp which would be extremly hard since the Powers would use all there power to stop this from happening.


Wipe out humanity. The Necrons have all sorts of anti-psychic technology as well as pariah human-slaves/converts (not sure what they do with paraiah humans, I heard they Necronize them?) so if the chaos powers ever decide to make a move, they would have to tell their slaves/converts to get physical and thus go to war with the Necrons, something I think the Necrons are quite formidable at, more so than any other race.

Also let's not forget the the Ctan named the deceiver is quite adept at controlling people to do his bidding without them actually knowing it, like certain actions undertaken by Abaddon involving the black fortresses. 

If the chaos's powers most senior member was manipulated by the Deceiver without their knowledge, then it just goes to show what the Ctan are capable of.

One other thing, it is said that the Ctan named the Nightbringer was the one who installed an innate sense of fear in all the mortal races with the exception of the Orks. That feat alone is beyond anything in my opinion what the chaos powers have achieved throughout their existence in regards the mortal races.

Also if it wasn't for fear being part of every mortal creature's nature, then no one would fear the chaos powers so ironically it's because of the Ctan that the chaos powers are feared. 

So if man never feared the dark, never became superstitious, and never sought supernatural powers when stuck in a nightmarish situation (ex: many SM chapters calling for help from being stuck in the warp, etc. and having their pleas for help answered by chaos powers) then I don't see how chaos would be functioning as it were. 

And if the Nightbringer could do something as powerful as make mortals have a sense of fear, then again it just goes to show what they are capable of, perhaps if he decided to, he could remove that sense of fear just as easily as he spread it across the races.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> On the other hand, the chaos powers are fully dependent on the material realm feeding it raw emotions. Without humanity, the chaos powers would dwindle into non-existence.


Yes. But completley removed from time & space, and primarily only concerned with 'the eternal flow of emotion across aeons' - the Chaos Gods know they rely on mortal races for their unrivalled power and influence. Just as mortals rely on Chaos for their empires, communications and general survival.

The C'tan can be destroyed or imprisoned. The Chaos Gods will endure as long as a single mortal does. Effectively making them much more durable than the C'tan.



Malus Darkblade said:


> The ctan have survived for countless millennium, have an infinite amount of food sources and thus are essentially immortal.


The Chaos Gods are so much more than immortal. They are unending, without a beginning or an end, quite simply - They are eternal.

And they also essentially have an infinite food source.



Malus Darkblade said:


> They subjected an entire race to their will, one whose intellects surpass any of the known races in WH40k, and the chaos forces have yet to do so.


The Chaos Gods have subjected countless empires, civilisations and races to their will (as noted in the Daemons Codex). You could even go as far as to argue the Eldar (perhaps the mightest mortal empire the galaxy has ever known) for the most part were subjected to the will of Chaos, and even go as far as to suggest that Humanity for the most part is subject to the will of Chaos.



Malus Darkblade said:


> So we don't know what the ctan are really capable of, but their mind-boggling lifespans without a doubt insures that they have something up their sleeve that will tip the scales in their favor if that hasn't occurred already.


Not necessarily. If anything the only thing the C'tan can do to defeat Chaos and render the galaxy helpless is seal off the Warp, if indeed that is even within their ability. You can't just assume that because they are the oldest entities in existence (in the Material Realm) they automatically have a trump card.



Malus Darkblade said:


> The Cabal's vision proves that without humanity they would starve, the other races thus not being a sufficient enough food source.





Malus Darkblade said:


> Again the Cabal's vision indicates that with the fall of humanity, the chaos powers would perish


The Cabal's Prophecy was completely fallible...



Malus Darkblade said:


> If the chaos's powers most senior member was manipulated by the Deceiver without their knowledge, then it just goes to show what the Ctan are capable of.


Firstly this is sort of irrelavent considering the Chaos Gods for the most part 'care nothing for the affairs of mortals'. And it hardly goes to show 'what the C'tan are capable of', some big gold guy leads you to a powerful Daemon Weapon? Oh yea, these guys must really be unstoppable :grin:

Secondly who said Abaddon was 'decieved' without the Chaos Gods knowing? And why would the Chaos Gods even care that the C'tan made one of their most powerful followers even more powerful?


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Yes. But completley removed from time & space, and primarily only concerned with 'the eternal flow of emotion across aeons' - the Chaos Gods know they rely on mortal races for their unrivalled power and influence. Just as mortals rely on Chaos for their empires, communications and general survival.


Mortals rely on the warp, not chaos. At one point in time, the Warp was free of chaotic taint and thus seperate from chaos as seen with the Old One's use of the warp prior to its corruption.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The C'tan can be destroyed or imprisoned. The Chaos Gods will endure as long as a single mortal does. Effectively making them much more durable than the C'tan.


The Cabal mention that the chaos powers will perish with the fall of humanity, now while they don't go into detail as to whether or not it will fully die out, they imply that it's death would surface indicating that it won't be able to resurface as a threat. 

It might have one microscopic cell left, but it's technically in a state of death in that it can never regain its past power.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Chaos Gods are so much more than immortal. They are unending, without a beginning or an end, quite simply - They are eternal.


They had a beginning as seen with the Old One's use with the Warp prior to it becoming infested with daemons. The Ctan are older than the chaos powers as we known them today. The chaos powers may have always been there in a cellular-like form but they lacked the sentience that they do in the 41st millennium and so didnt exist until humanity/other races started giving it sentient life.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And they also essentially have an infinite food source.


Chaos are like meat-centric omnivores and humanity is their meat. While they can survive on a meat-free diet, they will never be as powerful as they would be if they had their meat.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Chaos Gods have subjected countless empires, civilisations and races to their will (as noted in the Daemons Codex). You could even go as far as to argue the Eldar (perhaps the mightest mortal empire the galaxy has ever known) for the most part were subjected to the will of Chaos, and even go as far as to suggest that Humanity for the most part is subject to the will of Chaos.


The birth of slaanesh was a direct result of the Eldar's desire-filled lifestyles coupled with their emotions being more powerful than most races. Slaneesh is the youngest of the chaos powers and the most directly linked to the Eldar, but the other chaos powers were not interested or could not impose their will on the Eldar. 

Why? Because prior to their fall, the Eldar did not wage war one one another or on other races, they did not succumb to diseases due to their technology, and they did not plan and sow deceit upon one another. Only after their fall did they become vulnerable to the other chaos powers, war, despair and deceit.

Humanity is a whole different story and were vulnerable to the machinations of the chaos powers arguably from day one.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Not necessarily. If anything the only thing the C'tan can do to defeat Chaos and render the galaxy helpless is seal off the Warp, if indeed that is even within their ability. You can't just assume that because they are the oldest entities in existence (in the Material Realm) they automatically have a trump card.


True I can't automatically assume that they have a trump card but you can't discard the fact that because they witnessed the birth and demise of countless intelligent alien races amongst other events that occurred in the universe that they are not aware of a way to prevent aliens (chaos) from infesting the realm they are most familiar with and call home.

Let's not forget that at one point they came from another dimension, that alone just adds to the list of things they know and are capable of.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Cabal's Prophecy was completely fallible...


How so? Everything they predicted came true.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Firstly this is sort of irrelavent considering the Chaos Gods for the most part 'care nothing for the affairs of mortals'. And it hardly goes to show 'what the C'tan are capable of', some big gold guy leads you to a powerful Daemon Weapon? Oh yea, these guys must really be unstoppable :grin:
> 
> Secondly who said Abaddon was 'decieved' without the Chaos Gods knowing? And why would the Chaos Gods even care that the C'tan made one of their most powerful followers even more powerful?


The Deceiver led Abaddon to that weapon so that he could steal it and keep it safe from the one race who knows what its true purpose is and arguably the one race that knows the existence of the Ctan, the Eldar. So while he may of may not have bolstered the chances of Abaddon's chances of beating the imperium, it is without a doubt that the ctan's survival rate went up as a result of the eldar losing one of the talismans of vaul.

Right now the biggest threat to chaos are the ctan and their plans to seal off the warp. Why wouldnt the chaos powers use the weapon to their advantage on the ctan if they know their location or understand the threat of their existence? Right now humanity is their plaything, no one really can oppose the chaos powers except for the ctan due to their plan.

Also what's your opinion about what the Ctan are capable of doing and undoing, in regards to the bit of installing fear in mortal races I mentioned


----------



## Shacklock

Just to throw something out there, what if the Universe of 40k coincidies with the whole theory that theres been multiple bigbangs and that the universe has ended and then started again countless times. Therefore what if the Chaos Gods have come into existence many times (when the universe populates enough to bring them into existence) making them older than the C'tan by a long shot


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> Mortals rely on the warp, not chaos. At one point in time, the Warp was free of chaotic taint and thus seperate from chaos as seen with the Old One's use of the warp prior to its corruption.


The Warp _is_ Chaos, and Chaos _is_ the Warp. The two are completley indivisible. As noted in at least 2 codicies I believe.

The Warp is presumed to have been free of 'Chaos' during the reign of the Old Ones, but is likely to have been simply dormant or no way near as powerful/influential as it is currently. Either that or you can use the age-old argument, that time doesn't exist within the warp.



Malus Darkblade said:


> They had a beginning as seen with the Old One's use with the Warp prior to it becoming infested with daemons.


They may have a beginning if you look at the events from a material, chronological sense, but that would be incorrect. The warp is timeless and contradictory, the Chaos Gods have always existed within the warp (as noted in _The Birth of Slaanesh_). For all intents and purposes, they are eternal.



Malus Darkblade said:


> The Ctan are older than the chaos powers as we known them today. The chaos powers may have always been there in a cellular-like form but they lacked the sentience that they do in the 41st millennium and so didnt exist until humanity/other races started giving it sentient life.


Again that is looking at it from a Chronological/Cause & effect perspective, which is an error when regarding the Chaos Gods and the Warp.



Malus Darkblade said:


> The birth of slaanesh was a direct result of the Eldar's desire-filled lifestyles coupled with their emotions being more powerful than most races. Slaneesh is the youngest of the chaos powers and the most directly linked to the Eldar, but the other chaos powers were not interested or could not impose their will on the Eldar.
> 
> Why? Because prior to their fall, the Eldar did not wage war one one another or on other races, they did not succumb to diseases due to their technology, and they did not plan and sow deceit upon one another. Only after their fall did they become vulnerable to the other chaos powers, war, despair and deceit.


Hence why I was careful to say 'could' :grin:



Malus Darkblade said:


> True I can't automatically assume that they have a trump card but you can't discard the fact that because they witnessed the birth and demise of countless intelligent alien races amongst other events that occurred in the universe that they are not aware of a way to prevent aliens (chaos) from infesting the realm they are most familiar with and call home.


Tzeentch has the _Hidden Library_, it contains every single scrap of knowledge in the universe, every thought of every creature across space and time. Tzeentch alone trumps the C'tan, as far as trump cards are concerned!



Malus Darkblade said:


> Let's not forget that at one point they came from another dimension, that alone just adds to the list of things they know and are capable of.


Indeed, but that hardly helps them regarding Chaos. Especially considering all they did prior to being interred into Necrodermis was feed off of Stars.



Malus Darkblade said:


> How so? Everything they predicted came true.


All farseeing and prophecies are ultimately fallible. The Eldar, and even the Emperor acknowledge(d) that the future is not set in stone and infinite factors make up every single possible occurence. Tzeentch himself doesn't even truley know the future (even though he has experianced it), and not only is he timeless, but he also has the benefit of knowing the entireity of the past & present, and also has the _Hidden Library_ at his disposal. He even has Kairos to do with as he wills, but he does not certainly know or determine the future.

The Cabal's prophecy was fallible. They did exactly the same as the Eldar do now, manipulate critical factors in an attempt to bring about a desireable future. In the Cabal's case that was getting the Alpha Legion to join Team Horus in order to bring about a favourable future. However that doesn't mean that they realised every factor involved. For example its possible they may have misjudged Horus, their prophecy relied on the fact that Horus would loathe himself for killing his father, they may not have happened.



Malus Darkblade said:


> The Deceiver led Abaddon to that weapon so that he could steal it and keep it safe from the one race who knows what its true purpose is and arguably the one race that knows the existence of the Ctan, the Eldar. So while he may of may not have bolstered the chances of Abaddon's chances of beating the imperium, it is without a doubt that the ctan's survival rate went up as a result of the eldar losing one of the talismans of vaul.


Yes, the Deciever likely led Abaddon to Drach'nyen in order so that Abaddon could eventually lead the 12th Black Crusade which saw Talismans of Vaul permenantly removed from the grasp of the Eldar. But that hardly goes to extreme lengths to show the power/influence of C'tan, which I believe was your original point.




Malus Darkblade said:


> Right now the biggest threat to chaos are the ctan and their plans to seal off the warp. Why wouldnt the chaos powers use the weapon to their advantage on the ctan if they know their location or understand the threat of their existence? Right now humanity is their plaything, no one really can oppose the chaos powers except for the ctan due to their plan.


You mean the Talismans of Vaul in that regard? Why don't the Chaos Gods utilise the Talismans of Vaul to battle the C'tan? I would say simply because they don't care or they don't percieve the C'tan as enough of a threat to put the Great Game on hold. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> Also what's your opinion about what the Ctan are capable of doing and undoing, in regards to the bit of installing fear in mortal races I mentioned


Well If im honest, *Personally* i've always been skeptical about that piece of history regarding the Nightbringer. I generally see it as more of a metaphor, but that is of course just me, and may not be what GW intended.

But if were taking it as literal, I don't see in anyway how it could make them more powerful than the Chaos Gods. The C'tan seem to be able to dabble in some form of genetics, given that they 'planted' the Pariah Gene I believe in the first place. But I highly doubt they would have been able to seed fear in such a way.

Fear is natural in most, if not all sentient species. This is generally while im skeptical, because if the Nightbringer truley is responsible for fear, what about the Old Ones and whatever lesser races were around prior to that? The Necrontyr even, were they not capable of fear? Maybe the Nightbringer became a personification of that fear, the natural icon or resemblence of fear, but as for 'creating' fear itself, I highly doubt it. So in that regard I personally accept that the Nightbringer had the influence at the peak of his power to 'effect' most lesser races in the sense of maybe becoming the front for fear, but I don't accept that he 'generated' fear itself.


----------



## bobss

Can I just say that NOWHERE does it say that Chaos is totally dependant upon its ''food source'' ¬_¬


----------



## K3k3000

> The Necrontyr even, were they not capable of fear?


I'd say they were, as the main motivation behind the Necrontyr's actions were the resentment of their short life spans. Why else would they hate being short-lived if not because of their fear of death?


----------



## LordLucan

Quite right bobss!


----------



## Malus Darkblade

K3k3000 said:


> I'd say they were, as the main motivation behind the Necrontyr's actions were the resentment of their short life spans. Why else would they hate being short-lived if not because of their fear of death?


I don't think they feared death, they just couldn't stand living such short lives. 

When they came into contact with the old ones and saw how they were immortal, their frustration/anger turned into jealousy.

They didn't fear death, they embraced it in a way that their whole culture began to deal with death once they made contact with the old ones.

It was the one thing they couldn't conquer, the one thing they couldn't come up with a mathematical formula to solve despite their innate genius and so when they asked the old ones what their secret was and to help them with their plight ,the old ones said no and they got pissed off.


----------



## LordLucan

K3k3000 said:


> While I'm sure there's some truth to this, it seems to imply that the C'tan and chaos gods are omnipotent in their own spheres of influence, which doesn't seem to hold true with what we've seen.


Notice in my post, I merely said the C'tan are the most powerful beings of the materium, bar none. I did not once imply omnipotence for either faction.

However, compare the relative dominance of each faction in their native mediums. C'tan are one of the many rival facitons, fighting to become the dominant force in reality.

Now, look at the realm of the warp. Chaos utterly dominates it in almost every way. All their rival beings are far weaker than them. The older warp gods are all devoured or part of chaos itself now. The enslavers seem to be broken as a unified force. The psychuieneun (can't spell their name from memory) are a mere pest. The Emperor, while some claim he is single-handedly holding off chaos from destroying all reality, seems rather passive and on the defensive now (after the masterful xanatos gambit of chaos in the HH).

In fact, so powerful is chaos in the warp, most codexes claim the two are one and the same.

Comparatively, chaos seems to have the edge.



> The C'tan can weaken and be defeated, other C'tan and significantly powerful entities can and have defeated C'tans.


Indeed. Never claimed otherwise. They can do almost anything that is possible in this reality though. Their codex pretty much says they have mastered physics in all it's facets (bar warp science seemingly). Chaos, comparatively, can break most of the physical laws, simply by extending itself into reality.




> The chaos gods can be restrained via the Emperor,


And a great job he is doing... :grin:



> their corruption can be fought,


Yes. But only in reality. How many beings can resist the chaos gods in their own realm? Perhaps one (at a stretch)?

Now, the C'tan can be resisted effortlessly in the warp, and as you say, they have been fought back effectively in the past in the materium.



> and one chaos god might be more powerful than another.


If you assume chaos is in fact four distinct entities...



> Neither side is omnipotent; they may be so powerful that they may as well be, but both sides clearly have limitations and weaknesses.


Yes, we agree. I don't think that is what Child, or I, was saying.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Malus Darkblade said:


> I don't think they feared death, they just couldn't stand living such short lives.
> 
> When they came into contact with the old ones and saw how they were immortal, their frustration/anger turned into jealousy.
> 
> They didn't fear death, they embraced it in a way that their whole culture began to deal with death once they made contact with the old ones.
> 
> It was the one thing they couldn't conquer, the one thing they couldn't come up with a mathematical formula to solve despite their innate genius and so when they asked the old ones what their secret was and to help them with their plight ,the old ones said no and they got pissed off.


In that regard perhaps you are right. But do you think that the Necrontyr were incapable of feeling fear whatsoever?


----------



## LordLucan

I like to use this analogy with the Old One/Necrontyr relationship:

Imagine the Necrontyr are Frank Grimes. They have struggled for everything for their entire history, grimly churning on, working their way up the hard way.

The Old Ones are Homer Simpson. They have everything so much easier than the Necrontyr, who had to toil and die in futility. 

Then the Old Ones turn up with FTL, are immortal and (seemingly) all powerful. It's boudn to breed resentment.

Now, since the necrontyr can feel emotions, why not fear? While fear of death would be unsuitable for Necrontyr, I think they would fear other things. Fear of their lives being pointless, and not advancing the species. Fear of failure. A fear that their species wouldn't survive. I could see them fear those things. However, personal fear seems like it wouldn't occur in the fatalist mindset of the Necrontyr.


----------



## Malus Darkblade

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> In that regard perhaps you are right. But do you think that the Necrontyr were incapable of feeling fear whatsoever?


If I were to believe that the nightbringer brought fear about the mortal races, then yes.

But putting that aside, fear is simply an instinct you have that warns you to avoid performing a certain action or to avoid going to a specific place.

Humans for example tend to have an innate fear of snakes because our ancestors supposedly encountered them, got bitten and thus poisoned. 

Over the years, a fear developed of snakes and as a result led to a lot of humans surviving by avoiding contact with snakes all together.

Now with the Necrons, they along with the Old ones were the only sentient creatures back in those times. They were both highly advanced and were familiar with their surroundings and beyond to an astonishing degree, both races mastering their environments and other dimensions in ways yet to be emulated in the WH40k universe.

Fear in humans developed as a result of the way humans came about on a primordial world filled with dangers and things they've never experienced before.

The Eldar were created by the Old ones and thus were guided by them, I don't know if it was via a direct or indirect approach. In any case, I'm certain the old ones would of had a strong nurturing aspect, guiding them away from certain things, encouraging them to do this or that and so forth.

Apparently the old ones had no hand in mankind's creation, and so man had no way of determining what was bad or good for them except through trial and error, and thus the development of fear, a survival tool.

Who is to say the necrons/old ones followed the same path? If one would conclude that all beginning races develop an innate sense of fear upon experiencing their world for the first time, then one should also conclude that levels of technology for example would rise at a similar rate. 

But we know that's not the case, with the Old ones and the Necrons surpassing the eldar, interrex, and humanity even during their peaks of their enlightenment.

So it would seem fitting in a way that the nightbringer brought the fear of death upon the creations of the old ones while humanity developed it naturally since they weren't made by the old ones or the nightbringer imposed it on humanity the moment they walked the earth, a relatively short time in comparison with the eldar who were created around the time the old ones warred with the ctan.


----------



## sundrinker

the thing is though the warp needs souls and emotions to exist as do the chaos gods and if the necrons get there way which there is a good chance they will, there will be no souls or emotions to sustain chaos thus destroying it tottaly.


----------



## K3k3000

Malus Darkblade said:


> I don't think they feared death, they just couldn't stand living such short lives.
> 
> When they came into contact with the old ones and saw how they were immortal, their frustration/anger turned into jealousy.
> 
> They didn't fear death, they embraced it in a way that their whole culture began to deal with death once they made contact with the old ones.
> 
> It was the one thing they couldn't conquer, the one thing they couldn't come up with a mathematical formula to solve despite their innate genius and so when they asked the old ones what their secret was and to help them with their plight ,the old ones said no and they got pissed off.


It's feasible, I'll give you that, but it just doesn't seem logical to me that the Necrontyr loathed their short lifespans because of pride rather than fear. I'm stickin' to my guns on this one. 



LordLucan said:


> Notice in my post, I merely said the C'tan are the most powerful beings of the materium, bar none. I did not once imply omnipotence for either faction.


You said the C'tan were capable of doing anything that is possible, which is more or less the definition of omnipotence verbatim. To me, this counts as an implication.

However, in light of your clarification it would be pointlss to argue semantics further. We are agreed on all the salient points you have made, and now that the misunderstanding has been put to rest a more constructive conversation can ensue.

Hurray!


----------



## AAAAAAAAARRRGGHH

Malus Darkblade said:


> If I were to believe that the nightbringer brought fear about the mortal races, then yes.
> Ahh, but the problem seems to be that the Nightbringer only imposed the fear of death on the mortal races (to my knowledge). Fear itself, is another matter.
> 
> But putting that aside, fear is simply an instinct you have that warns you to avoid performing a certain action or to avoid going to a specific place.
> And the old ones races didn't have instincts? I'm convinced they had, otherwise they couldn't feed or breed.
> 
> Humans for example tend to have an innate fear of snakes because our ancestors supposedly encountered them, got bitten and thus poisoned.
> Indeed, but such knowlegde is likely not genetically tranfererable. All sentient beings have the potential to fear because they are sentient. Just like an infant have the potential to speak and think in certain patterns does most beings have the potential to fear. They merely need to be taught how to.
> 
> Over the years, a fear developed of snakes and as a result led to a lot of humans surviving by avoiding contact with snakes all together.
> Same as above
> 
> Now with the Necrons, they along with the Old ones were the only sentient creatures back in those times. They were both highly advanced and were familiar with their surroundings and beyond to an astonishing degree, both races mastering their environments and other dimensions in ways yet to be emulated in the WH40k universe.
> 
> Fear in humans developed as a result of the way humans came about on a primordial world filled with dangers and things they've never experienced before.
> (Once again, if human can develope fears themselves, why should fear in other races not be natural?
> 
> The Eldar were created by the Old ones and thus were guided by them, I don't know if it was via a direct or indirect approach. In any case, I'm certain the old ones would of had a strong nurturing aspect, guiding them away from certain things, encouraging them to do this or that and so forth.
> 
> Apparently the old ones had no hand in mankind's creation, and so man had no way of determining what was bad or good for them except through trial and error, and thus the development of fear, a survival tool.
> 
> Who is to say the necrons/old ones followed the same path? If one would conclude that all beginning races develop an innate sense of fear upon experiencing their world for the first time, then one should also conclude that levels of technology for example would rise at a similar rate.
> I dont see the connection here. Maybe im an idiot, but i just don't follow this train of thought.
> 
> But we know that's not the case, with the Old ones and the Necrons surpassing the eldar, interrex, and humanity even during their peaks of their enlightenment.
> 
> So it would seem fitting in a way that the nightbringer brought the fear of death upon the creations of the old ones while humanity developed it naturally since they weren't made by the old ones or the nightbringer imposed it on humanity the moment they walked the earth, a relatively short time in comparison with the eldar who were created around the time the old ones warred with the ctan.


I'd also like to add that since the real question is "who has the most power", the warp is sort of an alternate dimension (with screwy physichs) and as such there is nothing that prevents other dimensions like the material world from existing. And less that prevents those worlds from having a similar connection to the warp. Therefor, even if humanity falls the dark gods should only be concerned with their power in this dimension. This, of course, makes chaos' reach of influence unlimited and their power ditto. The C'tan can only ever rule this plane, chaos can rule all. 

Man, that was a long answer...


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## Serpion5

Fully enslaved? I've never read up on entire races being enslaved/converting to chaos, worlds yes but not races.



In Eisenhorn, a race named the sathurai (or something like that) are completely devoted to slaanesh. Though they were nowhere near as influential as the other races, and had all but abandoned the materium. It has happened though.
On this topic, yes, the c`tan are older and in a way responsible for the creation of the warp turbulence leading to the birth of the chaos gods among other entities. But while these warp based creatures depend on the emotional emanations of the "psychic sensitive" races, the c`tan can feed on any energy. There`s a galaxy full of stars out there.
And remember, the human race is gradually evolving both psykers and pariahs at an increasing rate. Yes, psykers are (comparitively) more common, but useless against pariahs. It is simply a matter of whether the chaos gods will realize the potential threat. And if they will even act on it! 
Ultimately, I must side with the necrons and c`tan as more likely to win. Assuming of course, that the tyranids decide to take a backseat for a while.
(AS IF!):laugh:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Serpion5 said:


> Fully enslaved? I've never read up on entire races being enslaved/converting to chaos, worlds yes but not races.


"Shattered worlds and long-forgotten civilisations dot the galaxy as testament to whole species that fell into damnation or destroyed themselves in the service of Chaos. Of these, the greatest were the Eldar - a race that once spanned the galaxy, now reduced to a few survivors adrift upon the cold void." - Page 24 Daemons Codex.


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## scolatae

K3k3000 said:


> During the war in heaven, the eldar god Khaine combatted and defeated the Nightbringer, albeit to the detriment of the Eldar race. Slaanesh fought most of the eldar gods, including Khaine and the one god stronger than Khaine, and won. In the process, he crippled the most powerful and prolific race in the galaxy, a people strong enough to keep the necron in check.
> 
> These events were largely situational, but still serves as a keen insight into the scope of chaos' destructive power, which, even if the C'tan aren't subject to, far exceeds the C'tan's own. If the chaos gods and the C'tan _could_ combat each other directly, I don't doubt that a single chaos god could take all four remaining C'tan and the whole of the necron race without breaking stride.
> 
> The C'tan's ultimate goal is to seal off the warp from the material universe. They likely have the potential to do exactly that, but if they fail to and have to contend with the full strength of chaos (held back, I believe, solely by the Emperor), they would undoubtedly lose. Chaos isn't bogged down by the same limitations of the tyranid; flesh is finite by its very nature, but there are potentially limitless demons, some of which have power enough to challenge the necron. Even if it had to engage in a war of attrition, chaos unchecked would certainly defeat both the necron and the C'tan.


And yet they cannot destroy one crippled human psyker, perhaps their loosing their edge.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

scolatae said:


> And yet they cannot destroy one crippled human psyker, perhaps their loosing their edge.


Who said their trying to?


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## Serpion5

Maybe they`re not. Maybe he`s dead already and they don`t give a rat`s ass.


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## murdock129

If I may make a point about the Tyranids fearing the Necrons

Do they truly fear them? They avoid planets with the Necrons since the Necrons are metal, and as a result their not food, so the Tyranids have little interest. And even if there is food on that planet, they know the Necrons are there which means that there's a possibility of their food being wiped out by said Necrons leaving a planet with nothign to snack on

The Chaos gods are four in number remember, only four C'Tan are awakened and alive to my knowledge (The Deciever, the Nightbringer, the Void Dragon and the Outsider). And the Eldar may fear the C'Tan, but it was Chaos who tore the Eldar apart, and left only three Eldar gods remaining

And as for attempting to destroy that single crippled psyker, well Slannesh spends a lot of his/her time on pleasure and living life for the full instead of assaulting the Imperium, and as for Tzeentch, for all we know he is not attacking as it is a part of his manipulations


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

murdock129 said:


> The Chaos gods are four in number remember


Actually there are many more than four Chaos Gods. Khorne, Tzeentch, Slaanesh and Nurgle are just the most powerful and dominant.


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## murdock129

Well that simply makes my point stronger.

4 indescribably powerful chaos gods (not including Malal), and who knows how many other nearly as powerful ones


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## TheMaskedOne

A small note on "The Chaos Gods has existed since the beginning of time" chewing I have read in probably the latest "Chaos vs INPUT ANY OTHER RACE" debates I have read.

According to Necron fluff, the C'tan are far older than the Chaos Gods. At the time they were created, only a single sentient race stood to find in the entire universe, the Old ones (who later created the Eldar and a bunch of other races to defend them from the necrons). The Necron wiped them out, and in desperation, the Old Ones decided to grant some of their creations the ability to shape reality, like they did. They gave them access to the tranquil, which then became the warp when the mortals bled fear, anger, hatred, desire and other primal feelings into the tranquil, twisting it and deforming it, creating the warp. And the warp, in turn, achieved sentience of it's own, which fed on certain feelings, gaining power enough to take form... Thus, the Chaos Gods were born. Even the Eldar remember the ancient days when the warp was not the warp. The warp was formed as a direct reaction to the birth of the C'tan and the war they waged upon all life. Soon, the C'tan understood that this horrible (to them) power that the old ones used as a tool had turned against them, and since they couldn't grasp the nature of the demons as they were, unlike themselves, not entirely real, they decided to retreat to their stasis worlds.

I have both the Chaos Codex, the Necron Codex and ofc the Rule book, with all it's fluff. And even though they are sometimes sloppily refered to as having been in existence for eternity, they have not. If you read carefully through your codexes, you will find that they make mention of the birth of Chaos in the chaos codex as well. And if there is a beginning, something must have been before it, and there must also be an end.

No, the Chaos gods are not old as time itself.

This does not mean they cannot win against the C'tan though. As stated, the C'tan cant grasp the demons of the warp. They cannot understand their power and they can't have it for themselves. 

However, they are not defenseless or weak against these powers. They even have units that cancel out psychic attacks, like the Pariah. And they do have the ability to create new necrons. Unlike the imperium, computers do not forget. They have the schematics, they have the science and knowledge, they have the means and material. In fact, the Pariahs are necronified humans. The number of necrons are always increasing, not the opposite. Again, read the necron codex. . Not to mention the prophecy that the necron will kill and enslave all galaxy, close the "Eye of Isha" and generally just rule everything.

However, the prophecy makes mention of hope, that it hasn't have to be this way. However, I doubt very much that the Eldar farseer would refer to the Chaos Gods ruling everything instead as "hopeful".

In fact, this debate is pointless, because none of them will ever win. Nor will any other race. Because winning is equal to peace. And as we know, in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war. (Oooooooh, that was a cheesy argument)

Hi, btw, this is my first post on Heresy Online.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

TheMaskedOne said:


> According to Necron fluff, the C'tan are far older than the Chaos Gods.
> 
> No, the Chaos gods are not old as time itself.


Both of those points are meaningless.

The Warp Gods are timeless entities. 'Time' as we mortals know it does not apply at all to the Warp Gods. They are thus not older or younger than the C'tan, as such things are not applicable to them.



TheMaskedOne said:


> Hi, btw, this is my first post on Heresy Online.


Welcome, welcome.


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## Davidicus 40k

TheMaskedOne said:


> In fact, this debate is pointless, because none of them will ever win. Nor will any other race. Because winning is equal to peace. And as we know, in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war. (Oooooooh, that was a cheesy argument)
> 
> Hi, btw, this is my first post on Heresy Online.


Well, kind of. I doubt the Great Game will end simply because the Chaos Gods have destroyed the Imperium (and anyone else foolish enough to stand against them) and conquered the universe. There will still be war, except it will be Khornate legions ripping apart Slaaneshi hosts, while Tzeentch slings reality-destroying spells from afar and Nurgle farts some plagues.

So Chaos could win. 

And welcome to Heresy Online!


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## blackhole

The Necrons cant cross over into the Warp and inflict DIRECT damage on the gods instead flaying their followers, and the gods can continue trowing screaming cultist at Necron armies which amounts to alot of atomized matter. Basically C'Tan and Chaos gods each master their own land, and whoever is on home field wins.


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## TRU3 CHAOS

I said C'tan because they seem to be a bit more "fearless" compared to the chaos gods. 

The reason why I quoted it is because because its not really fear but some kind of worry. They constantly fight each other for supremacy and the few times they fight against the mortal realm it seems like they are worried about something. Even if the term isn't really fear.


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## Eerie

You know what would be really freaking scary?

_Chaos C`tans._


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## HUMYN HYBRID

i believe the ctan are more powerful than the chaos gods, but in saying that, the chaos god also have strengths over the ctan, but in a direct conflict, i believe the necrons would triumph. there are thousands of tombs unawakened, but thats in this galaxy. but think about this. if the tyranids came from other galaxies, who is to say the ctan havent got other tomb worlds outside the current galaxy we are fighting in now? there could be a galaxy dominated by nothing but necrons as far as anybody is concerned.


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## Deadeye776

I'd like to see the Void Dragon and the Deciever reappear before I call this. I know I myself have talked the dragon up but with all this stupid revisions who knows if he'll be all he's built up to be. For this reason I'd like to see a book or the story progress to the freedom of one of these characters. We've seen what the Gods can do and read about them. The C'tan have not really been built up besides the Nightbringer and Deciever.


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## Malus Darkblade

BL is going to kill off the Ct'an I think. We already have Necrons talking, thinking for themselves and planning to overthrow the Ctan's control over them.

Why?

I think BL has had a super hard time differentiating between the Chaos powers and the C'tan mostly because both have almost identical goals and because fitting the C'tan into the new lore seems troublesome.

Fall of Damnos, the last book featuring the Necrons did not even mention the C'tan once despite the book taking us back to the Necrontyr homeworld from the flashback of one Necron.


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## Yru0

I'm gonna have to say Necrons/C'tan simply because they don't depend on the warp whilst the Chaos gods depend on the material realm. By all means, if the gods were to go head to head, Chaos would win flat out, i mean, have you SEEN Khorne?! He friggin spends eternity on a THRONE OF SKULLZ!? You just can't fight that!  yet the mighty gods of chaos can't (as far as we know) get out of their cosy imaterium to whoop the naughty c'tan's hinnies. So while the C'tan dominate the galaxy the chaos gods could be left to through cultists at them pointlessley, knowing that they'll never win but having a good laugh anyway (which is a win for them), but what if the 'crons conquer the galaxy and then continue to wipe out all sentient life? By by chaos, by by eternal throne of skulls. No direct confrontation required. Beating chaos the cheap way


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## Deadeye776

I forgot where but I think the C'tan are responsible for the pariah gene and plyon technology. That being the case the C'tan are probably the only race who have a real final solution to Chaos influence in the material realm. Also it should be stated that the C'tan don't need the immaterium but the Chaos Gods need the materium. That is a major diadvantage in my book. If the C'tan had been truly successful with making the pariah gene more prevelent and activiating the plyons around the galaxy they would weakened the Gods considerably. The sisters of silence presence on prospero is one of the only reasons that the warp powered sons were defeated. So we can see the power the gene has on warp powers. To my knowledge barring actually killing the pariah, the warp creatures don't have anything to actually combat the pariahs.


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## MontytheMighty

K3k3000 said:


> These events were largely situational, but still serves as a keen insight into the scope of chaos' destructive power, which, even if the C'tan aren't subject to, far exceeds the C'tan's own.


your point is not devoid of merit, but I would be hesitant to use A->B->C logic
it often results in inconsistent conclusions when applied to a wide range of factions
example: quite often, A beats B, B beats C, and C somehow manages to beat A...

as you've implied, the situational nature of those outcomes rather reduces the accuracy of any direct comparison


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## Serpion5

Malus Darkblade said:


> BL is going to kill off the Ct'an I think. We already have Necrons talking, thinking for themselves and planning to overthrow the Ctan's control over them.
> 
> Why?
> 
> I think BL has had a super hard time differentiating between the Chaos powers and the C'tan mostly because both have almost identical goals and because fitting the C'tan into the new lore seems troublesome.
> 
> Fall of Damnos, the last book featuring the Necrons did not even mention the C'tan once despite the book taking us back to the Necrontyr homeworld from the flashback of one Necron.


I can see this being possible, but personally I think that they are too deeply ingrained into the lore to remove completely. 


The Blackstone Fortresses exist because of the C`tan. 

The Eldar, and by extension their gods, exist because of the C`tan. 

The Mechanicum is founded upon the dreams of a sleeping C`tan. 

The 13th Black Crusade and the Gothic War were in part engineered by a C`tan.


They have had further effects as well, but these are more important. 

So while I have no doubt they will have a vastly reduced role, GW would be hard pressed to account for their complete disappearance. For that reason, I believe they will remain in the lore at the very least.


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## eyescrossed

Malus Darkblade said:


> Also if it wasn't for fear being part of every mortal creature's nature, then no one would fear the chaos powers so ironically it's because of the Ctan that the chaos powers are feared.


As others said, the fear of death. Not fear itself.




Serpion5 said:


> In Eisenhorn, a race named the sathurai (or something like that) are completely devoted to slaanesh. Though they were nowhere near as influential as the other races, and had all but abandoned the materium. It has happened though.
> On this topic, yes, the c`tan are older and in a way responsible for the creation of the warp turbulence leading to the birth of the chaos gods among other entities. But while these warp based creatures depend on the emotional emanations of the "psychic sensitive" races, the c`tan can feed on any energy. There`s a galaxy full of stars out there.
> And remember, the human race is gradually evolving both psykers and pariahs at an increasing rate. Yes, psykers are (comparitively) more common, but useless against pariahs. It is simply a matter of whether the chaos gods will realize the potential threat. And if they will even act on it!
> Ultimately, I must side with the necrons and c`tan as more likely to win. Assuming of course, that the tyranids decide to take a backseat for a while.
> (AS IF!):laugh:


And the race in Fulgrim, can't remember their name.


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## Kruphix chaos ctan

Lord of the Night said:


> True but the Necrons use weapons that are anathema to the Warp, I dont remember the name but I remember a Necron device that cut off the warp in certain areas.
> 
> I would think that is their goal, after restoring their armies. Once the warp is sealed off though the young races have no hope of survival.
> 
> Thats mostly true but the Chaos Gods have have limited interaction with the materium. Slaanesh possessed a Blackstone Fortress in the 12th Black Crusade, and all the Great Unclean Ones are technically Nurgle himself and interact with the materium.
> 
> On a side note each of the 4 C'tan are the opposite of a Chaos God. Khorne the God of Blood and eternal battle is the opposite of Nightbringer who represents death. Void Dragon who represents machines, everlasting and eternal, is the opposite of Nurgle the God of Decay. Deceiver who represents trickery and falsehoods, yet takes no pleasure in them, is the opposite of Slaanesh the God of Hedonism. Outsider who represents pure madness is the opposite of Tzeentch the God of Change and Knowledge.
> 
> 
> The question is though could they stop them. If the Chaos Gods united then the C'tan would become aware and unite together as well, plus their legions would awake and do battle. In terms of strength the Necrons would triumph over Chaos, the Necrons legions are unending and can resurrect where the Chaos Space Marines cannot, and the Daemons can be stopped by the C'tans technology. And while only two C'tan are awake and active they are very powerful even in their weakened states, plus its only a matter of time until the Void Dragon is released, and the Outsider will awaken soon enough.
> 
> 
> Right now the Chaos Gods are dominant but the C'tan are growing in strength as well, and are much older and therefore more powerful then the Chaos Gods. Plus those Pylons have been studied and tinkered with by the Tech-Priests, so they are most likely broken.
> 
> As for the size of the Necron legions think about the Necrontyr, their life-spans were so short yet the species lived on, they must have had a high birth rate. And considering that no Necrontyr turned away from the C'tan then the entire race joined them, which must have been billions for such a short lived race to have survived their homeworld's cataclysmic conditions.


But, the Necrons rose against the ctan, breaking the major 4 int o shards, and turned them into Pokemon,


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## Brother Lucian

Yeah, the star gods are quite diminished now, compared to their earlier incarnations in the fluff. Now its quite plausible that a small, if significant shard of the Nightbringer, right out of hibernation chose discretion over valor when faced with enemies when freshly revived. Too much at a stake to engage in a conflict with new foes.

Though in the World Engine, the freed Cthan is quite powerful enough to ruin the World Engine entirely on its own, coring it superman style and rendering it vulnerable to outside attack.


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## Serpion5

Can we please check the dates on threads before we post in them? This one is four years old, the poll and discussion are based on old lore that is questionable now at best. 

If anything, a new thread of this nature should be started.


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