# Empire in 8th edition?



## Calamari

I'm about to start an empire army and I was wondering how they behave under the new rules. My idea is based on the English civil war so plenty of spearmen muskets and cannons, and a steam tank because I love the model. Im also trying to stay away from the knightly orders.

Is this a good idea? Are there any units that I should avoid or take and what is the army like in general?


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

Luckily for you, the want you want to play is also the lawl I win army


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## Alexious

Hi Cal,

The Empire is definitely one of the armies that has risen in ability under 8th edition. The plan style of force that your discussing is a strong contendor. The only thing you need to be aware of is the fact you will need something to disperse or harass enemy war machines etc and something to look after and protect flanks. Pistoliers are a good option for this as are Outriders.

As for the general. The Empire is really the middle of the road, your capable of taking a general and they can be great additions, however for the type of list your running consider the Arch lector with Altar as a general. His abilities are great for a foot force where you need to enusre you wont run and his dispel capability assists greatly too.

As for hero selection, take a look at the warrior priest and also the Master Engineer.


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## Sethis

Empire in new edition:

Do you have a Steam Tank?

1. Yes (go to 3)
2. No (go to 4)

3. Win
4. Lose


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## mynameisgrax

I have to disagree. Steam tanks can be spoilers (as in, there's a chance the opposing army might not have the unit/spell it needs to deal with it), but it usually isn't difficult to wound it to the point it isn't useful, either with lots of attacks, poisoned attacks, lore of metal, etc. Either that, or it isn't that difficult to get it stuck in a large unit of infantry, where it'll probably be stuck for most of the game.

My Ogres have trouble against them (as they do purple sun, and I've faced both at the same time), but most armies have at least one way of dealing with the dreaded steam tank. 

Where Empire really shines is with great cannons and mortars. If you take both, then there's nothing you can't deal with. Just take some pistoliers, some reasonably good spearmen/swordmen units, and a couple wizards, and you'll do fine.


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## neilbatte

The Empire has a fair few different ways to build an army, The all cavalry army will struggle but pretty any other build should at least hold it's own.
Steam tanks are tough to Vs but I don't like them and would'nt use them.
Wizards win games in this edition and longrifles kill wizards so I generally bulk up on long rifles to stop the killer spells and then use my core troops to grind down every thing else


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## Spot The Grot

Empire are strong as all of the main buffs effected empire.

*Units that got buffed:*

- All statetroops due to horde rules.
- Halberdiers buff was huge as you can now alway strike back which means our cheap S4 unit in a horde formation is getting lots of attacks
- Magic , all lores in the rulesbook were buffed up and are probably better than many of the armybook lores. As empire we can pick all those lores.
- Magic again , warrior priest and Arch lectors dispel dice now means a lot more. You now get less power/dispel dice in your average game. It seems wierd but that one dice makes a huge difference.
- Templates , no more partials so helstorm rockets got better and so did mortars by miles.
- Pre-measuring , we use lots of warmachines which means our guns just got more accurate.
- Engineer buff , this is empire specific. For those who read the FAQ you will know that the engineer now affects all warmachines including helstorm rockets and enables you to reroll one scatter or artillery on a machine in 3 inches.

*Nerfs*

- Bound spells now require power dice so you will have competition between warrior priests and wizards
- Shield nerf , for those of you can do math you will notice a 5+/6+ save is worse than a 4+ save against your average target.
- Cavalry nerf , cavalry were indirectly nerfed by the charge distance which is now movement + 2 D6 as opposed to double movement , they now have a smaller charge range. Also you now need a rank to flank which means cavalry need to be 10+ or they are useless for flanking (which is what they are for). 
- Pistoliers are now pretty bad as they now have a crap gun. I don't know the details but they are now a worse gun and don't give +1 attack for 2 pistols.
- Everything can be wounded , despite being buffed to T10 in the FAQ the Stank can now be wounded by every unit , even goblins.
- outnumber is removed so that +1 gone from our combat res.

*Units that are a must:*

Warrior Priest
Halberdier block with Swordsmen detchment
Mortars and cannons
Helstorm rockets
Wizards (lore of life is the best)


I hope all of this helps , in the end the empire came out very strong in 8th


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## effigy22

1 of the biggest strengths empire have now is the fact all our non special characters are really cheap compared to other armies! A general of the empire is the same points (or cheaper) as a lord than alot of heroes in other armies. 

Our troops are very capable being average and also at a low points cost meaning you SHOULD outnumber most opponents. (obviously not goblin armies)


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

Your heroes are cheap, because they...(wait for it) SUCK. Obviously you can get hordes of men, but remember you have to keep everything in perpective. You get hordes, of shitty troops. So does everybody else. Almost every pro you listed affected every other army. And the armies it didnt effect probably have better pros anyways.

Empire didnt get worse in 8th. But it didnt get significantly better.


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## Spot The Grot

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> Your heroes are cheap, because they...(wait for it) SUCK. Obviously you can get hordes of men, but remember you have to keep everything in perpective. You get hordes, of shitty troops. So does everybody else. Almost every pro you listed affected every other army. And the armies it didnt effect probably have better pros anyways.
> 
> Empire didnt get worse in 8th. But it didnt get significantly better.


Your kidding me right with the buff bit? Empire got one of the biggest buffs in 8th. Almsot everything that got changed pretty much favoured us. The only other army that saw large changed was HE's and that because of a single rule.

No other army saw as much change as we did. This is one of the great parts of empire , its cause we're so versatile.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

really? True, they didnt see as MANY things change, but so what? You didnt get any changes making you better, that everyone else didnt get honestly.


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## Sethis

Empire does seem to have got stronger. I had no problems steamrolling Empire in 7th, but 8th they can make me work for it (or if they have a steam tank, eat my all-comers list alive).

Pistoliers are VERY good, everyone I play against takes them with the champion with the 4 shots option, they annihilate opposing light cav and can make serious dents in shaggoths and other monsters/war machines if you let them. They might have been nerfed in combat, but frankly, why were you in combat to begin with?? Just flee from everything and then turn around and shoot them some more.


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## CoNnZ

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> really? True, they didnt see as MANY things change, but so what? You didnt get any changes making you better, that everyone else didnt get honestly.


The point spot was trying to make was that no other army has the combonation that empire have. Empires style is hordes of infantry, artillary and magic, perhaps the most heavily buffed parts of 8th. Another is that they can now strike back meaning the puny state troops finally get to hit back rather than losing an entire rank every turn to a chaos warrior unit. I cant think of another army that contains all these features


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## Khorothis

Enjoy being in the God Tier with High Elves, Dwarves and Skaven. And yeah, its deliberately not Top Tier because Top Tier armies can be beaten with an all-comers list. Sure I'm exaggerating but not too much. Theres no helping the dedicated CC army, regardless of list quality and player skill, if you screw up your charge rolls. And against Skaven, even if you manage to they'll just laugh in your face and shoot right into the masses of Relentless Ld10 Slaves thats around 40-50 strong for what? 100-120 points?

I used to be very enthusiastic about 8th but seeing as how gunline armies got buffed (can measure, no partial hits, cheap tarpits, badass magic) and CC armies got nerfed (you need big units -> easier to hit with templates, more expensive (pts/$), harder to manouvre; cavalry can't do jackshit from a point-to-point perspective in comparison to other stuff you can find in your Army Book), I've lost every ounce of it. The game roughly boiled down to checking the following list: 1. Do you have the right army? 2. Do you have the right models? 3. Do you have enough of them? 4. Can you put these models into a list that isn't heavily influenced by the increased luck-factor? 5. Is this list competitive? Its piss easy to get it right, especially once the pre-concocted tournament lists hit the internet. And then the army plays itself, the job you have to do is roughly the mental equivalent of holding down W and M1, with the occasional strafing and jumping.

Of course you could always say that attending tournaments isn't compulsory, but even in friendly games I prefer to have at least roughly as much chance to win as my opponent, which depends greatly on the army book's and the rulebook's synergy. Another thing is that I hate to win a friendly match against an opponent who has a more powerful armybook, because I'd think "I won purely because he didn't bring this and this and this and thus wasn't able to do this and this and this", which is approximately as glorious a feeling as slaughtering I Can Win bots in Quake III: its not about me having played well but about my opponent deliberately going easy on me. And thats humiliating.


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## Words_of_Truth

I'm contemplating returning to playing WHFB I got tons of Empire and I've never liked cavalry so seems these changes really benefit my playing style.


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## Masked Jackal

Lord Sven Kittyclaw said:


> really? True, they didnt see as MANY things change, but so what? You didnt get any changes making you better, that everyone else didnt get honestly.


Everyone else may have gotten the same boosts, but these boosts all synergize best with an army like Empire.


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## Words_of_Truth

Is it worth making horde units for an Empire army? or would it be to expensive? waiting for the army book to arrive, so I'm just speculating till then.


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## bishop5

Possibly with the Halberd troopers...


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## neilbatte

I tinkered with horde lists with my state troops but wasn't that impressed as they kill the best thing in the Empire rules, the detatchments.
By all means go for bigger units but they're still more effective in a narrower frontage with deeper ranks as then its impossible for other thin deep ranks to just charge the middle of a horde leaving the detachments too far away to counter charge.
Also by deploying massed hordes it becomes a struggle to leave clear fields of fire for your artillery.
With a musician it's relatively easy to reform into a horde if it might benefit the combat but for ease in battle I think it's better to stay ranked up deep until your about to fight especially now that cannonballs don't auto hit every one in their path.


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## CoNnZ

Horde units are really good for empire atm. Bring a unit of 40 halberds and 20 swords. Thta seems pretty efficient for them currently


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## Words_of_Truth

Atm I only have 10 handgunners and a single unit of ten swordsmen with full command what would you say is a good number for a core unit, so I can add more to the swordsmen and use the handgunners are detachments. I have 3 boxes of 10 state troopers and a box of handgunners/crossbowmen to put together, so I was either gonna boost my swordsmen to 20 and make a unit of 20 halberds or I could boost my swordsmen to be even bigger. dunno what to do about the handgunners  could just make them a ten man unit with a champion and musician with a trumpeter.


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## Spot The Grot

Words_of_Truth said:


> Atm I only have 10 handgunners and a single unit of ten swordsmen with full command what would you say is a good number for a core unit, so I can add more to the swordsmen and use the handgunners are detachments. I have 3 boxes of 10 state troopers and a box of handgunners/crossbowmen to put together, so I was either gonna boost my swordsmen to 20 and make a unit of 20 halberds or I could boost my swordsmen to be even bigger. dunno what to do about the handgunners  could just make them a ten man unit with a champion and musician with a trumpeter.


Swordsmen are best in units of 30-35 , also i would consider try to get another box of state troops somehow and get 15 extra swordamen to be a good combat detachtment.


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## Words_of_Truth

What's the benefit of having swordsmen as a detachment? I thought having something more damaging is better for detachments, like Halberds?

Also I have like 20 metal Greatswords but I really like the new plastic ones so I want them in my army to, my army book still hasn't turned up >.< so I was wondering is it plausible and possible to have two units of Greatswords?


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## Tim/Steve

You want your main units to be something damaging, eg halberds, but with a detatchment you just want it to hang around in the enemy's flank as long as possible.
With empire you'll rarely out-kill an enemy, so you'll want the extra bonus of 3 ranks (and keep it away from the enemy) and flank for as long as possible: simply by keeping at least 10 models alive that detatchment can give you +4CR. Add that to the quiet capability of units like halberds or greatswords and you have a winner.


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## Words_of_Truth

ah k awesome thanks. Kind of lost with what to do with my handgunners now lol


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## Alexious

Hangunners are best deployed in units of 10 now with a hoc long rifle using them as a sniper. Use the unit to stymie attacks on your blocks by wearing down your enemy with gunfire.

The second option is to use them as a detachment as well, they can be effective as a detachment alongside a large unit of GS softening up the enemy if your GS are holding a flank.


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## Words_of_Truth

What's the best unit number for Great swords? I got 20 at the moment but I really wanna use the new plastic ones to.


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## Alexious

Word,

Your question is a bit like how long is a piece of string?

1). How many points is this force?
2). What is the purpose of the unit?
3). What is it supported by?

For example;

My 2000 Point Empire Core Selection is;


40 Halberd
15 FCompany

40 Spears
15 FCompany

10 Handgunners
10 Handgunners
10 Handgunners

10 Archers

With Special Choices of

2 Cannon
1 Mortar

It will come down to how you build your army and what the purpose is. I think a unit of 20 GS fits well when run 5 across for some armies. But it would depend on what your putting with them and what your attempting to do with them.

Think about what your attempting to do. Most stuff in my army above is designed to fire at range, reducing the enemy as they approach so that the two blocks can then stand a decent chance of engaging and taking out the enemy.

In 2500 and above I add 10 knights to act as a hammer.

The GS are a fantastic choice unit for defending a flank as they are stuborn and won't run, but they can be great in attack as well. It really does depend on what your going to do with them, the characters your adding to them and then what they are going to do to help you win the game.


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## Words_of_Truth

Heh yeah sorry, I really want to just sit down and make a listen but after a week the army book still hasn't arrived and it's driving me crazy lol. 

Thanks your input though.


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## Words_of_Truth

Still no army book lol btw I was reading through the rule book and I found it says cavalry roll 3 D6 and choose the two highest. Just thought I mentioned it as someone wrote it was just 2D6, do agree though it is a slight nerf, especially when I have a good amount of knights.

Btw do knights have to be in units of ten now to get a single rank?


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## Tim/Steve

Yeah, cavalry needs at least 10 models to get a rank.. but running 10 means that as soon as you lose 1 you lose all rank benefits.
Cav roll 3D6 and discard the lowest one... someone did the math and found out its about the same for M8 cav but lowers average movement for M9 and M10 (eg flyers).


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## VeronaKid

No. They do have to have 2 complete ranks of 5 to do anything truly significant, though. Read the section on "Disruption" in the close combat section of your rulebook to see what I mean.


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## Words_of_Truth

I just read the Heavy Cavalry tactica on GW site, I like the whole overrun ability sounds pretty cool. I have a mounted warrior priest and a Elector/general on mount but I'm sensing it's best if I keep all my leaders on foot and if I do use a unit knights, only take 10 inner circle knights.


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## Tim/Steve

I would use a couple more then 10 knights (probably 12 as a start)... and dont expect them to break enemy units and overrun into others without support from a fully ranked up infantry unit. Against low Ld enemies or those with few or no ranks your cav will just tear through them... while the rest of the time empire cav are a cheap and effective tarpit- very few things will kill enough of them to really break them, especially if you have a BSB close by.


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## Words_of_Truth

How about pistoliers? I have 5 metal ones with no command but I also have a box or two of unmade up ones, are they now better in bigger units with a muscian etc? I was thinking of making outriders depending on how good they are since they weren't in the game when I original played, so it's either add to pistoliers or make them.


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## VeronaKid

Pistoliers got very tasty with the change to 8th edition, since they get to fire in 2 ranks. That's a ton of armor-piercing goodness that's hard to catch with the feigned flight rules. I'd almost say that they are a must-have for any decent sized empire force.

They don't need any sort of command, though, especially not a musician. Fast cavalry gets all the free reforms it wants.


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## Tim/Steve

I dont really see the point of using pistoliers in 2 ranks- just use 2 units... its harder to pin them down with shooting and less hazardous if you pull a risky feigned flight (or dont and the enemy rolls high for their charge).


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