# 40k Software



## StalkerZero (Oct 3, 2010)

After taking a look at Army Builder I do not think it is something that I would use. Great software just not appealing to me, I think there may have been a better layout choice, and I think adding armies is a bit of a pain in it. I'm sure most people are quite used to it (seeing as it apparently is the only option available).

As a developer I am thinking of tackling the challenge in the upcoming winter months. I'm not going to say I'll be able to knock something out in a month or so but I was thinking maybe a 4-6 month project.

So my question is, what would YOU want out of software designed to build and track your armies?


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## Col. Schafer (Apr 15, 2008)

Well if we're wishlisting, an immage of the codex with drag and drop for all the units and upgrades.


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## Pssyche (Mar 21, 2009)

I use Army Builder and I think it's a piece of cake to run up an army list in a couple of minutes on it. I find it particularly helpful for reminding me where to spend those final few points on equipment that I will actually use. 

The only thing that is missing for me is the ability to use a photograph of your models alongside the relevant units on the army list. 
But I believe this is being addressed and rectified in an update due for release this Autumn.


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## OrkByTheGraceOfGork (Jun 9, 2010)

I'm not a developer or anything. I fall into the camp of, "It's the the only thing out there, and I'm used to it". I imagine it could be more user friendly, but my greatest problems with AB is the support and the amount of errors which can create problems making lists (e.g. Can't add IG HWTs to infantry squads in platoons). I might be doing it wrong, IDK, but I should be able to make custom lists using any unit within an army and not be restricted. When I try use Ork Big Trakks in a non codex list, it appears I can only build a list using them in an IA8 Dread Mob list. :ireful2:


Well anyway. :drinks:


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## StalkerZero (Oct 3, 2010)

Col. Schafer said:


> Well if we're wishlisting, an immage of the codex with drag and drop for all the units and upgrades.


I was definitely thinking making it more graphically appealing would be the way to go and to be honest the idea for an image of the codex with drag and drop for the units may be a great idea.

I have nothing really against Army Builder. I just don't like how it runs. It is fairly error prone (which for software the does charge for the real version it shouldn't be so heavy on errors in my opinion). 

This is mostly an idea to cure winter boredom and wondering if I truly can make something I would consider "superior". Would everyone consider it so, probably not but even if I get something out of it that I can personally use that prints up a nice roster sheet I'd be happy.


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Something like Forward Kommander would be nice for the generation itself, then you could jump to the print format where you have the stats, abilities, special rules and total point costs of units.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Army Builder has pretty tricky mechanisms, it barely makes sense sometimes.
It's not user friendly, that's the problem.

A drag-and-drop interface would be perfect, but it needs to have simple ways of adding less simple things, like a unit of Tyranid Warriors, who all have to have the same gear, except for the one taking a 'heavy' weapon; in Army Builder that's a confusing thing to add.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Were can I get the army builder software?


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

You have to buy it I think.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

Screw army builder.
I wouldn't mind giving a one-time small donation to use it, but stuffed if im paying US$40 each year for the bloody thing.
I think they got too greedy for their own good.

Regarding software, i would only use it if it was free.
I would be willing to give a small donation (say $10 a year) to be able to use a software program IF it was user-friendly.

Personally, i would rather use this PDF instead, along with my codex.
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52539


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

$40? Fuck that. I can do the simpletons math on my own for free.


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## gally912 (Jan 31, 2009)

KingOfCheese said:


> Screw army builder.
> I wouldn't mind giving a one-time small donation to use it, but stuffed if im paying US$40 each year for the bloody thing.
> I think they got too greedy for their own good.
> 
> ...


I actually really like that pdf, but it auto-fills in your first elite slots' stats with the first HQ slots' stats.

(Put in WS 4 for your HQ, it puts 4 in WS for Elite) 

It upsets me cause I want to type it.


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## StalkerZero (Oct 3, 2010)

KingOfCheese said:


> Screw army builder.
> I wouldn't mind giving a one-time small donation to use it, but stuffed if im paying US$40 each year for the bloody thing.
> I think they got too greedy for their own good.
> 
> ...


Part of the reason I want to undertake this is realistically it is a pretty complicated piece of software. Each codex lays down some pretty strict laws on what can happen and what can't. Coding that wouldn't be easy. Especially when there also needs to be an option for "breaking" the rules if a player demands it (I'm assuming not everyone always plays by 100% the rules all the time). 

I hadn't even really thought much on monetary gain from it. I know the business model of army builder is NOT something I would want to emulate. A donation model would be more of what I would go for. Or at worst like $1-5 payment one time. 

Providing support would be the most challenging thing for me. Between college, full time job, and a small family - oh and trying to squeeze in time to game - I would have to seriously be on the ball when updates/changes happen to keep up.

I'm a big fan of using the old Excel spreadsheet and codex (since as a new player I need to be spending a lot of time with my codex anyways) but I think in the long run a lot of players would prefer a piece of software. Especially if it was flexible, visually appealing, and let you store as many armies as you wanted at essentially no cost.

One thing I know I would look to be implementing is a direct output formatted for the Army Lists forums (missing the breakdown of point values and organized well). 

I am always open to PM's for suggestions or even paint mock-ups of what you think a good layout would be.

I thought AB was $40 one time and I thought it was over priced....just wow.


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## KingOfCheese (Jan 4, 2010)

StalkerZero said:


> I hadn't even really thought much on monetary gain from it. I know the business model of army builder is NOT something I would want to emulate. A donation model would be more of what I would go for. Or at worst like $1-5 payment one time.


If the software is good, i would be willing to donate more than that.
Id be happy to donate $10 a year, or $20 for life, providing the software is user-friendly and i can justify using the software over other free methods.



StalkerZero said:


> I thought AB was $40 one time and I thought it was over priced....just wow.


Well, technically it is $40 one time, which unlocks the software for life.
However, you only get 12 months worth of updates.

If your 12 months expires you can keep using the software, but if a new codex comes out then you have to spend another $40 to get another 12 months worth of updates.




Oh, and if you do go ahead with the software, dont make the printouts like the army builder ones.
They are too cluttered with crap. Everybody knows that marines have Frag/Krag Grenades, there is no need to put it next to every single unit/model in the army.
The software should NOT be a replacement for the codex. Just some simple stats, point cost, and additional wargear is all thats needed.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

You could try BattleScribe, that's free and has a bunch of stuff available and you can edit your own catalogues easily. 

I made some WHFB catalogues for VC and Chaos Daemons, pretty simple in reality. 

Aramoro


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

Interestingly I've started to desing an army builder for my own use. Its not going to be for public comsumption, wont have any stats available, and will require a link to an SQL database. This is a purly technical exercise for me to learn C# and interfacing with SQL.

I dislike army builder mainly due to its support structure. If you want to keep using it year after year costs a fair amount. It does seem odd as these updates are not produced by wolfs lair unless somethign has changed. Im sure they are on a thin line with GW regarding IP infringment, but they are still going so they must be on the right side of it.

A drag a drop feature would be good, as woudl the ability to build up saved lists of your own units so you can just pop them into the army and a list is made very quickly.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

I have always wanted a way to enter a list of models I own with the ability to highlight the remaining options for a list based on the remaining models. It would:
(i) save me having to count how many of a particular thing I had if I had not used the army for months;
(ii) allow me to extract a "to-do" list if I am building a new list


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## Daddysen (May 31, 2010)

i dont know if this would be too hard to add in but how about something that keeps track of your percentages for say Assault and shooting, and something that gives your percentages for anti-tank/armor, anti-Meq, anti-Geq, and anti-Teq. i think this feature would help out so much in building a balanced army. is this possible?


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## chromedog (Oct 31, 2007)

You don't need to pay to get the updates to AB.
You can actually find them and DL them manually.

It's what I do.
I paid for the program and the licence for 2 years (I was assisting with Tournament stuff, so it was a help). 
Since then, several of the 'updates' have gone and rendered the other datafiles useless (for the other specialist games I use it for) so I have stopped updating it, and indeed, rolled back to the original AB3.0 version on the cd and only have the datafiles for the SG games on it now.


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## StalkerZero (Oct 3, 2010)

Daddysen said:


> i dont know if this would be too hard to add in but how about something that keeps track of your percentages for say Assault and shooting, and something that gives your percentages for anti-tank/armor, anti-Meq, anti-Geq, and anti-Teq. i think this feature would help out so much in building a balanced army. is this possible?


Actually something like the combat calculator from this site would be fairly easy to implement. 

I had originally thought of doing this in C# and with SQL but I think I may go about it a bit differently now that there is interest beyond just myself.


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

I tried Army Builder, and I liked it, but I didn't like the fact you have to pay for it, so I tried finding a free alternative, and found a set Here that base all theirs on a Excel spreadsheet, which is pretty nifty. But if I was you, I'd look at all the available army makers, and just see how you can make them more user friendly, and how you can improve them.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I just use a Openoffice.calc spreadsheet, I used to write mine out but then I found I had gone over 1500pts/2000pts it made a scribbly, black mess on the page. I love you Openoffice...

Midnight


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## Quozzo (Oct 2, 2010)

> Actually something like the combat calculator from this site would be fairly easy to implement.


pfff. it took me over 10 hours to do this and has 328 lines of code, exuding the html. i am very proficient in JavaScript though


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## StalkerZero (Oct 3, 2010)

Quozzo said:


> pfff. it took me over 10 hours to do this and has 328 lines of code, exuding the html. i am very proficient in JavaScript though


I guess that's worth a re-phrase. Easy isn't the best word. 

It's math. Not altogether the simplest of math but in the end it's still just math.

I'm pretty excited about this project. I think it's next up on my block for sure now right after I finish my latest project (IOS Objective C Reference Guide - for some reason reference guides sell like crazy in the app store and I couldn't find a good one for the language that IOS development happens in....).


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## Dragearen (Sep 8, 2009)

What I use.



> The Forge is an electronic wargaming management tool that assists in the creation of army lists for your favorite wargame(s). The point is to make this process quick and easy. I originally created The Forge so that my friends and I could create army lists without having to lookup points, etc. when we wanted to go play a game. It is important to note thought, that The Forge will not replace your gaming material, but insteads adds to it. Therefor you should have a good understanding of the rules before you start assembling an army.
> 
> The Forge relies on a data file to supply specific information on any particular wargame. These lists have been made by fellow Forge users and can be found on the internet. You can also use the tools, within The Forge, to create your own data files or edit existing ones. I would like to package tons of data files with the installation program, but
> 
> ...


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

Quozzo said:


> pfff. it took me over 10 hours to do this and has 328 lines of code, exuding the html. i am very proficient in JavaScript though


That would take me about an hour in excel ;D


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## Quozzo (Oct 2, 2010)

> That would take me about an hour in excel ;D


so true but what the fun in that? >>this<< took about an hour, and both don't require a download 

In an army list maker, perhaps a layout for upgrading wargear options similar to the codex but with checkboxes, coupled with an input value for the number required where needed. would be easier to program: if A, B or C is selected then cant have D unless Z is taken too.


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## Marneus Calgar (Dec 5, 2007)

Quozzo said:


> so true but what the fun in that? >>this<< took about an hour, and both don't require a download


This is true


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## Vrykolas2k (Jun 10, 2008)

GW made Armies of the Imperium and Enemies of the Imperium, and I have both; of course, they stopped supporting those products entirely, but they were great.


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## Maverike Prime (May 4, 2010)

I had started work on a web based army builder a while back. One of the major things I wanted for it was graphical representation of the upgrades as they are applied. I only get around to making a test piece for a Daemon prince, but the idea shows. Clickie! I think that would be what would separate anything else from AB. If there's anyway I can help with the project, please let me know. I personally find AB a royal fraggin pain in the arse to use. I can do the same thing faster, and with more control and options manually using a combination of Word, Photoshop and Excel.


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## StalkerZero (Oct 3, 2010)

Finally got a start on my software. This was about 20 minutes worth of work and it's the beginnings of the main piece of army building software.

Obviously it's a long way off but it enforces certain rules (min/max squad size, no two of the same c'tan). Definitely hoping to have a lot of time to improve it this week. 

Only real shame is as I'm going back in to a third Visual Basic class after two years of not touching the language I am using it to make the software.

Obviously this version couldn't be mass marketed as it will contain specific point values, etc and GW would cut that down in a heart beat but it's fun to work on.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

StalkerZero said:


> Obviously this version couldn't be mass marketed as it will contain specific point values, etc and GW would cut that down in a heart beat but it's fun to work on.


Solution to that, make the program modular.
The program is the foundations, and then all the units, point values, and restrictions etc. get added in in modules, which like it or not GW would not be able to stop the distribution of (kinda like Vassal 40k).


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## StalkerZero (Oct 3, 2010)

Winterous said:


> Solution to that, make the program modular.
> The program is the foundations, and then all the units, point values, and restrictions etc. get added in in modules, which like it or not GW would not be able to stop the distribution of (kinda like Vassal 40k).


Hm...I think you may have something there. That would be an absolutely genius way around their IP restrictions.

I have Necrons near fully functioning now. Next goal is to get CSM implemented. I plan on adding the armies with wargear choices and then worrying about aesthetics and other features.


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## Winterous (Mar 30, 2009)

Of course it wouldn't be YOU releasing the modules, because then GW would know who to CAD.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

That is how BattleScribe releases their stuff. They do it in exactly the way you describe using XML to describe the rules of the catalogue and the BattleScribe program just interprets them. The army files themselves just made by keen amateurs (I made the Fantasy VC and Daemon books)


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## Drannith (Sep 18, 2010)

I like the check box idea (thought it would be a pain to code). I have just recently started looking for a software program to help build lists and as I look more into it I will have more suggestions of what I would like but as of now I know I want to see something easy to use, straight forward and prints off a sheet that is clear. 

Some things I am looking for is being able to add and subtract wargear with a click (check boxes) or drag down menu, ability to add in upgraded or special characters to a unit with either a drag down or check box (i.e. Boy to Nob for one mob) that then opens up another check box area or drag down menu block for thier specific upgrades/war gear, ability to save army lists at specific point costs, and then all the basics of an army list like stats, special rules (with BRB/codex pg # for reference would be great)

To get around no individual point costs you can just have a calculate button that tallies hidden point costs to show a total point cost which I think you already did. 

Some of what I am looking for is wishful thinking (like reference page #) and is more of a luxery than something that makes or breaks an army builder for me.


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## Aramoro (Oct 7, 2009)

You cannot have the points of the units stored within the program otherwise you are infringing. If someone else makes datafiles for them then that's cool. 

If I were you might want to look at how BattleScribe and Army Builder store their file formats and base it on that or actually use their format. Or you know, use BattleScribe or Army Builder.


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## Luisjoey (Dec 3, 2010)

I use the AB always, it doesn´t stop me from playing with the new armies comming, but it makes easey everything for playing.


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## StalkerZero (Oct 3, 2010)

Aramoro said:


> You cannot have the points of the units stored within the program otherwise you are infringing. If someone else makes datafiles for them then that's cool.
> 
> If I were you might want to look at how BattleScribe and Army Builder store their file formats and base it on that or actually use their format. Or you know, use BattleScribe or Army Builder.


Using battlescribe or army builder is out of the question. 

One other option is to have a text file (we're working with so little data here really) that has a blank value for points and let the user fill that in if they so choose. I think that should be enough for avoiding problems with GW. Text files are easily able to be edited by anyone and all the information about units can be stored there (and let me build wargear options for units on the fly too). 

And check boxes for wargear is a great idea and I'll have to make that change first thing to remember.

The point really isn't the challenge of this. I mean really this is some super, simple software to write. The point of this was to brush up on a language I don't use, to avoid using AB/BS because I don't like either, and to use the talents I have to contribute.

Some people can paint and show others how, some people can build wicked terrain and show others how (which despite being a carpenter for years and years I just can't do), and some people can critique an army list and perfect it. This is what I can do to contribute.

And I think I've made a decision about pricing. Originally I had toyed with the idea of doing a donation based approach. That way no one is compelled to pay for the software and only if they want to do they need to. But I think I'll just go full blown free and not worry about any donations. I know people love free and this software is benefiting me as much as anyone else who would download it. 

My only real problem is this may not be the quickest to get put out. I don't have a lot of the GW books that I'll need so I'll have to either buy them (preferable - want them all anyways) or find the information online.


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## 7r3zm (Jul 25, 2011)

Hello! I've been browsing this thread for the past couple of minutes and the overall forums for far too long. 

Anyway, I am currently developing another more open source alternative to army builder. It's much simpler, but I think there is some beauty in it's simplicity. I am also looking for testers if anyone is interested. It's a small program written entirely in java, so platform should not make a difference.

Would anybody be interested in helping? Please PM me! All feedback on it is welcome, no matter what level of programming knowledge. Here are some screen shots:


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## jaysen (Jul 7, 2011)

I think the big problem with an army builder is when you add in all the rules descriptions for wargear, weapons, options, etc... It's the intellectual property of GW and they would have a problem with it because it would allow people to use the software instead of buying the codexes.


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## Dave T Hobbit (Dec 3, 2009)

jaysen said:


> I think the big problem with an army builder is when you add in all the rules descriptions for wargear, weapons, options, etc... It's the intellectual property of GW and they would have a problem with it because it would allow people to use the software instead of buying the codexes.


Army Builder does not have all the rules; often it gives the name of the rule but not what it does.


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