# Versus... Skaven Slave Spam



## Tim/Steve

Hi everbody

Continuing our revamped Versus... series we have the humble skaven slave, as requested by experiment 626.

Some people might not understand the fear that goes along with these rubbish little guys. Poor stats, easy to kill and low ld... sounds like nothing right?
Well yes, individually there is very little thats easier to kill then a slave, but you don't need to kill 1 slave, you have to kill hundreds.. literally.

So, let me spell out a 'nightmare' type scenario. You're playing a 2-3k game and the opponent has put 4 units of 10*10 slaves with spears in front of his army, with a general and BSB pumping up their Ld.
Every unit is going to be steadfast Ld10 with a reroll, you can't really manouver around the flanks of them because they are making a near continuous wall of flesh and no matter how many you kill you'll be looking at up to 40 attacks hitting you back, which at WS2 and S3 might not be that scary... but 3-4 turns later you'll surely be feeling the pain.
AND THEN... just when you are stuck in a combat you cann't see yourself getting through anytime soon the skaven 2nd line starts shooting into teh combats, shreadding all your men.


So how do you deal with skaven spam (either my example, or others that you've seen)? Do you rely on magic to destroy those slaves, artillery to start reducing them down or combat to just smash through them eventually? Do you just target everything at taking down the Skaven's general and BSB so that the slaves will start to run away (and explode..)?

How do you go about beating a slave spam list, or if you run one how do people go about beating you... please share your tactical genious with your heretical brethren


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## kain1989

the way i deal with skaven, which is only situational at best, is to charge in with a suicide squad, and kill the bsb. then charge as much as i can into one unit, and hope i can break them, because with a huge blob, they're not gonna be able to do much except for march forward. but i've had too few experiences to consider this reliable, especially since skaven wiped me off the board last time i played them.


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## Grimskul25

I tyr and beat them at their own game roughly by having about the same amount of numbers with night goblins (with nets and a few fanatics). The nets make it even harder for the slaves to hurt my gobbos, making them wound on 5s and also the fanatics help do some damage to any scouting units or the blobs of slave themselves to help soften them up. Besides that I rely on a couple of Rock Lobbas and Spear Chukkas to aim for his second wave. The problem for me is that with this I don't have anything too effective against his incoming HPA which means I often have to drop 2 or 1 warmachines to get a unit of BO with the Banner of Eternal Flame in reserve to chop him up.


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## neilbatte

Depends what army I'm using, with Empire I concentrate some serious artillery on 1 or 2 units then follow up with a few hammer units as if your opponent has 3 or 4 large slave blocks and you take out 1 or 2 then it's easy enough to avoid the remainder as they are so unweildy you can then push on through to the squishy stuff behind them for the game. Admittedly lot of longrifles targeting the bsb after the've killed the wizards help.

Any other army I just use a massive hammer unit to push through the first unit of slaves
preferably well supported and missile troops soften the chosen unit, then just try and force as much as my force through the gap while pinning the other slaves with throw away units for a turn or 2.

Slaves are jut annoying tarpits so if you can break 1 or 2 or failing that redirect them a little to push your better units past or through then you can generally ignore them.


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## Tim/Steve

I love my ogres for playing this type of skaven- no 8th ed army is compleet without at least 1 hoard unit of bulls. I like to cast bullgorger to buff my ogres (+1S) since its the only buff that doesn't wound me in its casting (and people rarely bother to dispel it). The net result of this is that my ogres average 40 kills by the time you add impact and stomp attacks to their basic attacks... additionally to that I normally have 3 characters in my primary hoard (tyrant, BSB and slaughtermaster) which should up the kills to about 45, more if I have the tenderiser and/or dragonhide banner (reroll 1s to ht, wound, save on charge)...
Killing about 45 slaves on charge, then about 40 the next phase (unless I get serverly hammered by shooting/magic) means that there are only ~15 slaves left, which will have a lower Ld, but more importantly won't be steadfast anymore. That lets my charge through into the second rank and win the game (its over as soon as the skaven general falls- all slaves are at max Ld5 from then on...)

The slight problem with this is that it requires flank guards to stop a huge unit of slaves from hitting my flank... which means that if I fail a charge I'm in trouble. I'll never lose a round of combat and slaves don't do enough dmaage to really kill off my units but they'll tie me down for far too long...


I've never played skaven with my WE and I'm very thankful about that... I play a shooty MSU army that I just dont think could deal with that number of slaves (I do have some combat, but its fragile and only meant to off-balance armies and wipe out remnants, not kill huge units). I think that I would have to just direct all my shooting over the top of the slaves while using my treeman ancient to hold up the skaven as best he can (eg charging to lock a unit into a location where the others can't get past). If the general falls then steadfast or not those slaves will break and die.
I'm going to have to look up the rules for shooting at funny units- I can't remember whether 8th ed rules allow you to shoot at screaming bells directly or if you just have to shoot the 'unit' (in 7th it was more then US5 so counted as a seperate target.. but I cant remember 8th).

... I'm not very confident that my WE could pull off a win against a real hoard of slaves. I'm probably pretty lucky that none of my meta skaven players really go in for slave spam in huge amounts, normally using 1-2 units of ~50, which are much easier to batter through.


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## experiment 626

Thanks for starting this one up Tim/Steve!

My problem with a slave spam is;
a) I play VC's, with the army themed to a Lahmian bloodline and thus, mainly skellies as the backbone.

b) the local skaven players like to run 4-6 units of 30-40 slaves as a front line. A grey seer on bell or 'survivor' warlord on a bonebreaker - always bunkered in a big clanrat unit.
- 3-4 MSU's of clanrats, simply for the poisoned wind mortars. Each unit is led by a Lv1 warlock w/warp lightning
- 2x abombs anchoring the flanks. (though I've had dcent success using a small unit 6 blood knights w/hellfire banner dealing with one of 'em!)
- a cannon or two pts permitting (at 3k it's likely to see at least 1 cannon)

So what happens is, my greatly out-numbered undead units get chased down by the slaves, and then the magic missiles & gunline open fire, obliterating my grave guard. (absolutely everything goes into this unit, to try and ensure that there's nothing left to res back...)
The skellies, if they don't get the magical buffs, just get badly outclassed by the cheaper skaven.


About the only thing I've managed so far is to play a simple pts denal by deploying as far back in corner as possible, and then throwing huge units of sword&board skellies and raised zombies into the ratmen to hold them up.
Still, this doesn't work out all that well, as the army is held hostage by the magic phase in order to replenish the troops! (plus the game is sooooooo boring!)

Really wondering how VC's are ment to deal with this type of crap since we lack almost all the needed tools?!?

Cheers!


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## Masked Jackal

I haven't faced this combo often, but I'd probably deal with it by throwing a unit like Corsairs in, then putting a bunch of debuffs on them. 50 S3 hits seem a lot scarier when the enemy is T1. As well, if I have the Dark Lore, I can just use Soul Stealer and Black Horror a lot.

Apart from magic-based combos, I could use some hordes of Witch Elves. Overall though, I don't see many good combos to use for my Dark Elves.

Lizzies are very easy however. Dwellers Below and throw some Saurus units in. Their units are usually very well adjusted to drawn out combats. If you want, you can just surround the Slaves with Skinks and shoot the crap out of them, while Dwellers Belowing and select troubles, such as a good elite unit behind them.


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## LordWaffles

The one time where the Ectastic seizures is a good spell.

Eliminates 2/3s of the swarm per turn.

Or for a more realistic list. Shadows to reduce either S or T, than Plague Touch, which means the entire unit just dies.


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## blackspine

While a lot of tactics above are handy, they're still neglecting the shooting your troops would take while in combat. Anything longer than 1 full round would be the start of a losing battle of attrition.


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## experiment 626

blackspine said:


> While a lot of tactics above are handy, they're still neglecting the shooting your troops would take while in combat. Anything longer than 1 full round would be the start of a losing battle of attrition.


+1

The other big problem I have being that even if I can hex the little slaves and trash them good in combat, the fact that they don't flee & just explode means your unit is now a sitting duck to what could be either;
a) a counter charge from something nasty like an abomb, furnace monks, rat ogres or big horde unit.
b) will be left in range of a multitude of very nasty shooting and/or magic missile gallery.

Keep in mind too that some armies don't have access to shooting OR dwellers below either! Granted you could always go for shadow magic to hit their initiative for a -D3 and then pit of shades, but with random dice generation & nearby general + BSB, that's not a reasuring tactic overall...

I guess with my VC's I'll just have to suffer untill GW realises that having no shooting, no war machines, no monstrous unit & massively over-costed core doesn't cut it in 8th...
Cheers!


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## The Meddler

Well, spells that affect the whole unit would be a good start. Pouring everything into a deathstar horde might work too, with a wizard to stop enemy magic and do buffs or hexes, and you could keep a little back to spend on some small skirmishing unit to go after war machines. Of course, if you have access to the Lore of Death, just snipe the general, then the BSB.


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## Gromrir Silverblade

Am I right in thinking that Skaven can ignore challenges?


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## Orochi

Unit wise, Frenzied Corsair horde anyone?

Any Elven elite unit will do the trick too. High initiative+attacks is crucial. 

WoC with the MoK and additional hand weapons and the like just bruise their way through.

As for Vampires, fight them Horde on Horde. Ghoul's ftw.

Monsters like Hydras, Varghulfs, Spawn, DPs etc tend to be a pain to skaven. Especially ones that Fly.


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## The Meddler

Gromrir Silverblade said:


> Am I right in thinking that Skaven can ignore challenges?


Yes, a character/champion can refuse a challenge, but they go to the back of the unit, can't attack in CC, and the unit can't use the character/champions LD.


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## ultor

The Meddler said:


> Yes, a character/champion can refuse a challenge, but they go to the back of the unit, can't attack in CC, and the unit can't use the character/champions LD.


The unit can use character/champion's LD. It's a skaven rule:shok:


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## experiment 626

ultor said:


> The unit can use character/champion's LD. It's a skaven rule:shok:


Yep... Leading from the back is considered a place of 'honour' in skaven society.
It also means that the character can make a safer getaway while the other poor saps get killed in his place!

For sakven at least, it's not cowardice, rather it's being the first (and only) one to safety! (or better yet, 'it's leading the charge in the opposite direction!!!')


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## Tim/Steve

Champions don't have to decline challenges- they're only champions and can just give a stupid look and not respond at all... you can onyl do that if there is no character in the unit though (a character has to respond).

I have to disagree with Orochi about elven elite units. Most will take 2-4 wounds from normal blocks of slaves... thats a high price when each model is ~15pts, especially if the slave unit only costs ~75pts (im assuming 30 slaves with spears). If it was a hoard unit with spears and enough wounds to make it an attrition fight then my HEs just wouldnt go close- taking round after round of ~40 attacks would just be too painful to be worthwhile (at least until the enemy general had been destoyed).
Of course there are times when you have to make a sacrifice and fight a battle where you know you'll lose more then you want, but I wouldn't seek these out...


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## Gulstaf

I know much of this has been said, but this is my 2 cents as a skaven player

Any spell or equipment that utilizes a blast or template is gold. for VC i would say deffienty get a good number of necromancers, try to maximize your magical usage against scaven, curse of years and gaze of nagash would work well against slaves, however you might want to focus curse of years on non slave units, i'd say anything pushing a screaming bell or a plague furnace would be top priority for those spells.

although skaven have excellent movement, maximizing you ability to move around the large blocks of slaves with cavalry and the like is a must if you don't want them to get tied up. especially with characters and sorcerers this allows you to focus on more important units. and their large size can be used to your advantage as they will be harder to maneuverer through or around obstacles.

sending sacrifice units is also another option, they may be shredded by shear volume of attacks and skavens ability to shoot into slaves, however this will allow your more expensive hard hitters to focus where they're needed.

*** also note while this tactic may seem somewhat silly, if you're playing VC and your opponent is fielding huge units of slaves such as 10 by 10s, try sending a lone vampire with a blood drinker, its a bit of a points sink, but if they don't have the shooting necessary to take him out, you could tie up a slave unit the whole game.


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## NoPoet

Just take a Nurgle daemon sorcerer. They have access to a spell which forces repeated toughness checks and can wipe out a whole unit in one go. Should at least do some damage. They can also bring an item of wargear which allows them to cast the same spell as a bound spell. Also Stream of Bile and/or Stream of Corruption would do it.

Sorry to sound so vague, I'm still new at this and I can't find my Daemons army book.

If you're another Skaven player, you could try and get the Dreaded 13th Spell off, and chortle as 20+ of your opponent's Slave regiment turns into Clanrats under your control...


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## Orochi

experiment 626 said:


> I guess with my VC's I'll just have to suffer untill GW realises that having no shooting, no war machines, no monstrous unit & massively over-costed core doesn't cut it in 8th...
> Cheers!


You have only one avenue of advance.

The Gravestar.
You say you run a Lahmia theme....but I'm afraid you'll need the more blood dragon uber combat lord here. Get as many attacks as you can out of him, as his base str5 is more than enough to be anti-skaven.
I also recommend you give Konrad a whirl. In the same unit as your BSB and general, he is actually extremely adept at killing slave hordes.

Now to deal with the shooting into combat, you have 2 options.
Skaven are typically weak. So Fell Bats actually can cause some pain.
The other option is a small unit of Black knights. Ethereal movement allows them to bipass intervening terrain and engage. And there's not much in the skaven back line (if in any line) that can cope with Knights of any sort without numbers. The Jezzails/warlocks/War machines creeping around at the back will succumb with little effort.

You need Necros and casty vampires to keep your units topped up. And lure your opponent onto the Gravestar. This is easier said than done. However, set up in a tiered line opposite him (Gravestar in the centre) and funnel him into them.
Keep your Black knights back and out of Line of fire until your opponent starts to move toward you.
Varghulfs on the flanks can pressure him into the centre. The only thing that can hold it's own against a Varghulf is the Abomination and Rat ogres.
Balefire Corpse carts can really keep the pressure on in the magic phase.

Also, if you're really struggling. A tooled up Manfred is a complete bastard in the Magic phase. Just be aware he has no Ward save. But can get get off a Massively over power diced Purple sun. As he has both the lore of death and black magic.


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## MarquisDeSade

Given that Teclis can choose any lore he wants, he seems to be a safe bet. Stick him in a unit of Phoenix Guard with a BSB (World Dragon). He can deal with the slaves from a safe distance whilst being protected from enemy shooting by the PG and the World Dragon banner protects against any magic (especially 13th spell). A lot of points but, There isn't much that can easily deal with him whilst he slaps the skaven silly, or blasts them apart anyway.


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## Majere613

A few more WoC thoughts:

For removing a big horde of dweebs, there's not much that beats a Chaos Dragon. For maximum effect, give the rider the Skinhidden Plate (making the rider T6 to match the Dragon) and the Mark of Nurgle to lessen the impact of any shooting. Then add the Breath of Corruption gift. Land said dragon-riding nightmare in an appropriate position (corner-on or side-on, depending on the rats' formation) and proceed to deploy not one, not two, but three template Breath Weapon attacks in one Shooting phase. Between the three of them, you should be looking at an amazing number of dead Slaves. As a bonus, the Dragon should be well placed after this to go hunting for artillery and wonder-weapons.

Obviously, the bargain basement version is a character on a Disc or Steed with Stream of Corruption, who can move swiftly into position. On a similar note, though less easy to get into position, Throgg's Breath attack will wreak utter havoc, though in all fairness it does that to just about anything.

The Hellcannon is another choice. A unit hit by it must take a Panic test at -1 LD. Add a BSB with the Doom Totem to reduce the LD of all enemies who can see him by another point, and those LD10 Slaves are testing on 8. Of course, if you can get Doom and Darkness on them too, so much the better. If the enemy General and/or BSB are hiding in a big block, target that with the Hellcannons instead. A combo here is to take a Sorcerer of Slaanesh as your Stream of Corruption gunner, and go for the Diabolic Splendor Gift and the Hellshriek spell, for an 18" Panic AOE at -1LD, comboing up with the Doom Totem again for -2.

Of course, if the General's unit is accessible, or if it's skulking too far back, Wulfrik may be able to haul the little blighter out and gank him. AFAIK it's currently a roll-off to see if his 'irrefusable' challenge trumps Verminous Valour.

Finally, for keeping the Slaves busy without tying up too many points, Chaos Spawn are a decent bet. At T5, with 3 Wounds and being Unbreakable, they can hold a big Slave lump for a turn or two with a little luck. The Mark of Nurgle again has mileage in reducing shooting damage.

Sidenote: How are people handling shooting into Slave CC atm? The Skaven FAQ seems to suggest there's no chance of accidently hitting the Slaves with direct fire like Jezzails etc, which rather makes calling the rule 'Expendable' redundant. My lot are still using the 4+ roll method.
EDIT- Just found the related thread in the Rules section. GW have officially lost their minds. We'll be sticking with randomising


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## blackspine

aye.
it's even removing the small slave casualties which is astounding.
Slave spam is more competitive and alluring for skaven generals. I see why too.
If those nasty chosen are in your slaves, destroying everything, hold them up, shoot everything and just keep them penned in.
I would figure that skaven slaves die more, as their backs are to their guns, and they have to shoot through so many ranks. 
As a CC army, most of my strategy is to GET to combat, there i'm safe from most warmachines and gunlines. I guess not anymore. 

For beastmen, Minotaurs are made (on paper) to take on skaven...but fragile against even tossed pebbles. Now that they can be shot while doing what they do best? They're pretty much worthless. (more so).


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## Stephen_Newman

Hows about for VC a guy I know uses this on most armies and it works.

Use 3 Varghulfs and rush all 3 up one flank and kill the Hellpit (They could handle a pair so one should be easy) then bumrush all 3 into the flank of a unit turn after turn and watch them flee like the cowards they are.


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## Karnax

For High elves, you could use a big block of spearmen and a dragon mage, buff the spearmen with that +1 to wound spell and use the dragon breath. Apart from that, the only thing which seems effective is magic.


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## The Dog Boy

Well I haven't faced a Skaven horde yet, my meta-game is just now forming with a newbie campaign in January, but the Skaven horde (along with the Ogres) has occupied a ot of my thoughts. As a Dwarf player, I think that several Grudge Throwers with Runes of Accuracy and engineers rather than the Runes of Penetrating, and Organ Guns to deal with the blocks. Even the lowly and normally ignored Bolt Thrower can play a role. Slightly boosted for either accuracy or Str can do wonders spearing long ranks of low toughness, low armor troops.
However, the sneaky tricks of the Skaven know no bounds and there will definitely be scouts, magic, and war machines working hard to wipe them out early.


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## Alsojames

For WoC you could cast Pandemonium, which disallows the use of the General's leadership, as well as screwing up any magic.

Lizardmen can counter the Skaven tide with a tide of Saurus with spears. A lot of attacks and just about a guarenteed kill with every successful hit and wound can whittle their numbers down pretty quickly. Salamanders can flame them down before getting slaughtered, too.

Wood Elves are really stuck because they're...what? 2 editions old? All I can really say is shoot the motherloving shit out of them.

You could also Lore of Shadow them to hell.


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## neilbatte

I used a troll horde on a slave unit the other day and with regen and vomit attacks went through them like butter, 
While the trolls outpointed the slaves considerably they only lost 2 wounds so were at full strength for the next unit they got to plough through.

Tap dance of Gork is a good spell against the slaves and itchy nuisance slows them down enough for your orc boys to smash them but if you really want to upset the Skaven player you can always just move a horde of boys up close them magically transport them over the top with the movement spell(hand of gork i think) then let them run riot through the back field, This works well if you have a wyvern with them to help as it's rare that you'll get the same trick off twice in a game.


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## Orochi

Big Block of Khorne Warriors with Halberds. Ouch.

Konrad Von Carstein in a big block of Ghouls is at home as well.


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