# Interesting Points on First Heretic (Spoilers)



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I wanted to see what those of you who read the book, _The First Heretic_ thought as interesting to the fluff that has already been put out there. 

The first point was about some of the relationship between the primarchs. Both Russ and Magnus both defended Logar. Magnus is probably the closest brother he has out of all his brothers. I found it interesting that even when Logar was remembering the time Logar made his weapon for him for thanks, Ferrus Manus pretty much told him to F### off. Also Fulgrim despised Logar for the imperfection the emperor sees in them. Another of the Logar haters or so it seemed is when Konrad Curze saves Logar's life. Only to be sickened by Logar's weakness. Pretty much Logar is disrespected by 5 primarchs.

I wasn't really sure, but it seemed that Argel Tal was seen by a couple of the primarchs when they landed in their drop pods. But I'm not sure if this is merely a hint or its just fluff that does really matter. As maybe they were just staring at the distance and didn't see him, just pure coincidence. 

I was wondering what people thought of the coincidence that Logar summons 3 legions, while Horus also does. In later 40k history, Horus and the legions he summoned are basically torn apart and Horus' legion is basically something entirely different while Logar and the legions he summoned are the legions that are actually the most intact. I thought that was just an interesting thing that is pretty much it. I was also thinking about the end of Dark Creed were there is hint that Logar wants to be the new Warmaster. I was wondering if you think the Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords would follow him. Also, do you think that he will always be the "favored son" of the gods or has it deminished? 

Thats all I have for now. Please feel free to put down some of the points you thought were most interesting.


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## yanlou (Aug 17, 2008)

i think the reason your not getting any replies is because most people havent even read First Heretic yet as its not been released for general sale yet, wait about a month and you might get some replys.


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## jmambrosian (Nov 30, 2010)

*Primarchs in drop pods*

I noticed that he was seen also, but I was wondering which primarchs he saw, are they a random assortment or are they the ones that turned traitor. Also I don't know about you but I felt that it was against Argal's nature to cut the wires attached to the infants incubators, I could see xaaphen doing that but not Argal.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

jmambrosian said:


> I noticed that he was seen also, but I was wondering which primarchs he saw, are they a random assortment or are they the ones that turned traitor. Also I don't know about you but I felt that it was against Argal's nature to cut the wires attached to the infants incubators, I could see xaaphen doing that but not Argal.


It seemed that all of them were the traitor primarchs. Except for the Lion who seems to have at least been tempted to join chaos.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

I don't think the Lion was ever tempted and A-D-B agrees, but thats for another thread. 

I can see why so many of them dislike Lorgar with the exception of Magnus. The majority of the primarchs all fully embrace the fact that they were creatd to be generals, leaders, warlords and excelled at it. But Lorgar doesn't want to be a warlord, he's like the pacifist Primarch, and that takes away a massive amount of common ground between him and the others and likely makes him look weak and a coward in their eyes. He got his ass completely handed to him by Corax only surviving due to Kurzes intervention, which just highlighted to Kurze just how weak he was in his eyes.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> I don't think the Lion was ever tempted and A-D-B agrees, but thats for another thread.
> 
> I can see why so many of them dislike Lorgar with the exception of Magnus. The majority of the primarchs all fully embrace the fact that they were creatd to be generals, leaders, warlords and excelled at it. But Lorgar doesn't want to be a warlord, he's like the pacifist Primarch, and that takes away a massive amount of common ground between him and the others and likely makes him look weak and a coward in their eyes. He got his ass completely handed to him by Corax only surviving due to Kurzes intervention, which just highlighted to Kurze just how weak he was in his eyes.


He may or may have not been tempted in the most recent moments to the Heresy. But that is something different in which more evidence would have to bring up to serious talk.

The temptation I was talking about was his overall taint when being brought up in Caliban. Chaos seemed to have chosen the Lion as one of those traitor primarchs. It may or may not be the case. But through the Lion's life, at least for now, it seems that the Lion survived being tempted to other ideology of the other Knightly Orders and even Luther's.


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## jmambrosian (Nov 30, 2010)

Also doesn't the lion give a certain weapon to peturabo before the drop site massacre hoping that after horus is eliminated he will be chosen as warmaster. So I guess he wasn't tempted by chaos persay, but he is guilty of some sort of hubris and I don't think the emperor would agree with his power play against his brother horus.
(also sorry about the spelling)


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

jmambrosian said:


> Also doesn't the lion give a certain weapon to peturabo before the drop site massacre hoping that after horus is eliminated he will be chosen as warmaster. So I guess he wasn't tempted by chaos persay, but he is guilty of some sort of hubris and I don't think the emperor would agree with his power play against his brother horus.
> (also sorry about the spelling)


Its pretty much just a leak, started by _Angels of Darkness_. And now more recent fluff may suggest such a thing. Many don't see the Lion giving the siege weapons to Perturabo as a sign that he maybe traitor. I on the other hand am one of those few that likes the idea that he may have not been so much for the Emperor's Imperium.


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## jmambrosian (Nov 30, 2010)

I haven't finished First Heretic yet but I just don't feel for Lorgar like I did Magnus in thousand sons. At first I felt the passion and heart break at what happened to his legion but now I am unsure. I will say though that the emperors appearence in Heretic was much better than his appearence in Thousand sons. The council of Nikea just seemed anti-climatic eeven though it wa sone of the most important events in the mythology.


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## Angelus Censura (Oct 11, 2010)

jmambrosian said:


> I haven't finished First Heretic yet but I just don't feel for Lorgar like I did Magnus in thousand sons. At first I felt the passion and heart break at what happened to his legion but now I am unsure. I will say though that the emperors appearence in Heretic was much better than his appearence in Thousand sons. The council of Nikea just seemed anti-climatic eeven though it wa sone of the most important events in the mythology.


 
Im going to have to agree with your feelings about Logar - at first I liked him and was disgusted with the Ultramarines and the Emporer, but as the novel progressed, I acquired views of Logar similiar to those that the other Primarchs held of him - cowardly and extremely desperate, he didn't really keep his cool and he didn't act in a manner one would think becoming of a Primarch. However, I did enjoy seeing the personal level of friendship and brotherhood between Logar and the Word Bearers, the novel portrayed him as a mentor to the chapter rather than an almost god-like entity. I also enjoyed all the descriptions of other primarchs - this book definitely gave a lot of insight into the actual heresy. Aaron Dembski is now one of my favorite 40k authors, up there with Dan Abnett and Graham Mcneill.


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## jmambrosian (Nov 30, 2010)

I just noticed today that when they are talking about argel's ascension to chapter master their is a mention of sigmusund black templars. I thought they were a second founding chapter which were brought together after the heresy. This is the first book where we see this and thousand sons suggest that certain chapters existed within the legions before they became independent. Also are the word bearers the founders of the chaplain order?


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## Angelus Censura (Oct 11, 2010)

jmambrosian said:


> I just noticed today that when they are talking about argel's ascension to chapter master their is a mention of sigmusund black templars. I thought they were a second founding chapter which were brought together after the heresy. This is the first book where we see this and thousand sons suggest that certain chapters existed within the legions before they became independent. Also are the word bearers the founders of the chaplain order?


I wouldn't say the Word Bearers were the "founders" of the Chaplain so to speak, as the Dark Angels, Iron Hands, Space Wolves and Blood Angels all have their own versions of the Chaplain. From what I understand though, the Word Bearers put a lot more attention into the Chaplains, and revered them, where as in other chapters a Chaplain was well respected, but not with as much enthusiasm as the Word Bearers. According to Lexicanum, the Word Bearers would make almost all decisions based on the word and teachings of the Chaplains.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

jmambrosian said:


> Also are the word bearers the founders of the chaplain order?


No, Malcador officially was the one who passed the Chaplain Edict. However it was based on the concept of the Word Bearers' chaplains, who had been present ever since Lorgar took command of the Legion (_CV_: page 124).


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Angelus Censura said:


> Im going to have to agree with your feelings about Logar - at first I liked him and was disgusted with the Ultramarines and the Emporer, but as the novel progressed, I acquired views of Logar similiar to those that the other Primarchs held of him - cowardly and extremely desperate, he didn't really keep his cool and he didn't act in a manner one would think becoming of a Primarch. However, I did enjoy seeing the personal level of friendship and brotherhood between Logar and the Word Bearers, the novel portrayed him as a mentor to the chapter rather than an almost god-like entity. I also enjoyed all the descriptions of other primarchs - this book definitely gave a lot of insight into the actual heresy. Aaron Dembski is now one of my favorite 40k authors, up there with Dan Abnett and Graham Mcneill.


I actually thought about this and agree with this assessment. I actually think ADB purposely made us feel sorry for Logar at first and then as the story was revealed, we got a little more distant to him. And its for that exact point that he is a desperate primarch. 

The ending where Corax saves Logar was interesting as well. I believe Logar made the ultimate sacrifice during his battle with Corax. He saved many of his sons lives in sacrifice of the remainder of his dignity and pride and almost his life.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> I actually thought about this and agree with this assessment. I actually think ADB purposely made us feel sorry for Logar at first and then as the story was revealed, we got a little more distant to him. And its for that exact point that he is a desperate primarch.
> 
> The ending where Corax saves Logar was interesting as well. I believe Logar made the ultimate sacrifice during his battle with Corax. He saved many of his sons lives in sacrifice of the remainder of his dignity and pride and almost his life.


You, sir, have nailed it.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

High praise indeed when ADB himself confirms your statement, well done.

The battle between Corax and Lorgar is one of the best moments of the HH series so far. For the first time we see a Primarch get his arse completley handed to him by one of the others. All the other fights always seems to be such close affairs, Russ vs Magnus, Ferrus vs Fulgrim, Angron vs everyone, etc etc. But for the first time we see a Primarch not even stand a chance at winning a fight and in the end having to be rescued by a fellow Primarch. And it didn't even seem as if Kurze saved Lorgar because he was his brothers, more of just the oppurtunity to deny Corax a victory even in defeat and so that he can personally tell Lorgar just how much contempt he holds for him. Like i said, excellent fight and moment.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I'm glad I got that part right. Sometimes people can look into things too close and make up their own interpretations. 

I don't want to say "I'm tired of hearing," because I understand how people think Logar might have felt bad for himself. But really, all of that is skeptical. I think that many make that statement because if put into that situation of embarrassment, they would feel sorry for themselves. At least I would. What he does at the end by making himself look foolish in front of all the legions again, shows that he is actually a selfless Primarch.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

jmambrosian said:


> I just noticed today that when they are talking about argel's ascension to chapter master their is a mention of sigmusund black templars. I thought they were a second founding chapter which were brought together after the heresy. This is the first book where we see this and thousand sons suggest that certain chapters existed within the legions before they became independent. Also are the word bearers the founders of the chaplain order?


They were already a chapter within the legion, as I'm sure we'll see there was another chapter called the crimson fists previous to the implementation of the codex. When the legion split, it was obviously easiest to just split it into the already established formations.


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## Darkoan (Oct 18, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> I'm glad I got that part right....
> 
> ...At least I would. What he does at the end by making himself look foolish in front of all the legions again, shows that he is actually a selfless Primarch.


I am another who agrees with you - the demonstration of courage and selflessness is only heightened when he knows hes going to get your ass kicked.

For me the 'tragedy' of Lorgar is what made me love TFH. We're talking about a good old fashioned tragedy. The one Primarch not 'born' to be a general. The one that looks most like the Emperor, and is totally loyal to the point of ridiculousness. Spurned by his father. Betrayed and disgraced by his brothers. The very human sense of despair and frustration. The spark that lights the fires that burn for 10,000 years and more.

I also liked the interesting discussions on faith - Space Marines are supposed to be warrior monks, and given how old they are, I'm continually disappointed they are not even more philosophical and intellectual than they are made out. Just my preference.


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## jmambrosian (Nov 30, 2010)

I also enjoyed the tragedy aspects of the work, but I was mad that half way through the book the plans are already being set and are coming up on istavan again. I thought it would have been better to slow it down and show the search for the cultures and rites. Not just to find one and say oh here we go this is what we were looking for. 
And I still don't think that Argel Tals' struggle was developed enough I wanted another Loken or Saul; but he seems to just keep going along with whats happening. In short their acceptance of whats happening just seems to soon. I wanted Lorgar to be broken by the truth. I wanted him to find the old gods and have it scar his soul like an Oedipus type story, or like Vader when he awakes to find that Padme was dead. This seems to have risen during the opening moments, but to have leveled off to fast.


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## grimdarkness (Apr 19, 2010)

I found it interesting how at times Lorgar seemed almost human, much more so than any other primarch. It made him easy to relate to, at least near the begining. As a result I felt his anguish at his legions humiliation much keener than i did for magnus in 1Ksons for example.


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## MuSigma (Jul 8, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> The battle between Corax and Lorgar is one of the best moments of the HH series so far. For the first time we see a Primarch get his arse completley handed to him by one of the others.


I always start grinding my teeth when i read these comments. Why? Lets see; 
Corax is more than a match in melee combat to any primarch. 
Lorgar never used a melee weapon in his life, fights corax to a standstill for a while, breaks one of Corax's power claws, then takes a power claw into the lower abdomen which corax rams repeatedly and draws it further up his torso until he spills out his guts and intestines, and does Lorgar cry, whimper, beg?
No he endures all that and Headbutts Corax in the face and destroys Coraxs nose. 
I think my version of events makes Lorgar look a little more respectable in the field of melee combat - sure he was beaten by a superior more experienced melee fighter - but you cant judge a mans charactor by whether he go beat or not, but how bravely he fought.
The reasoning seems to be - he was beat therefore he was a pussy.
Not noticing that he fought very bravely and took a lot a pain and showed a lot of guts (literally) and was definitley not a coward or a pussy or a weakling.

Also as a side note the weakling primarch Lorgar also put a certain Malcador the Sigilite and Guilliman on their backsides with one punch, both deserved death in my opinion except that they were carrying out the orders of the no-longer blessed Emperor (by his own command no longer a god - no longer devine or infallible or to be worshipped or thought of as a god).

May Lorgar the blesseds hand reach out through the warp and snuff out your miserable worthless soul.


Copied from the Word Bearers dept of propaganda - all rights reserved.


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