# At this time what legion has the least power?



## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Some of the traitor legions or the loyal original chapters have grown dim do to near collapse one way or the other. I was curious to what the 40k community thought as to which of the original legions has had the least success or most damage BESIDES THE MYSTERIOUS EXPUNGED LEGIONS.:threaten:


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Emperors Children. Barely any of them exist anymore, they are only seen in scattered, and very rare, warbands.


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## dark angel (Jun 11, 2008)

I would disagree with the Emperor's Children, they are not scattered as far as I know, where have you read this? 

My choice would be the World Eater's, since Skalathrax they have only been united under one banner twice if I remember correctly, and that was both under Angron himself.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> Emperors Children. Barely any of them exist anymore, they are only seen in scattered, and very rare, warbands.


Whats your source for that?

Personally I would say the Night Lords. They don't embrace Chaos like the other traitor legions, thus putting them at a disadvantage - considering they live in the Eye of Terror and are also opposed to the Imperium. They struggle to maintain their numbers, don't have their Primarch and generally struggle to survive as a legion. The internal conflicts/rivalries also dont help in the sense that some Night Lords wish to steer the legion in the direction of Chaos devotion whilst some wish the legion to remain as they are (neither denying or worshipping Chaos).


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

The World Eaters outnumber the Emperors Children by, some large number like 10-1. The EC tried raiding the other legions for slaves at the Eye of Terror and got decimated for it. Now EC warbands are very rare.

And its from the Index Astartes.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

I would vote Night Lords of the traitors and Raven Guard of the loyalist as they are a dying legion ever since Istvaan V.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

During the Heresy yes but in the 41st Millennium the Raven Guard are back at full strength.


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## forkmaster (Jan 2, 2010)

Oh my bad, I thought they had rather thin numbers even after. Also due to the problems they had with the gene-seed after their primarch tried to create more Astartes during shorter time period.


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## deathbringer (Feb 19, 2009)

Scythes of the emperor for the loyalists. There are only about 100 left after the damocles crusade and then the tyranids of hive fleet behemoth

WOOPS original well then you have to start going into founding chapters as almost all of the originals have a full strength legion and then various other chapters

I'm guessing the blood angels or wolves as many of their founded chapters are destroyed due to taint. Plus wolves were hit hard by the burning of prospero and then conflicts with the alpha legion


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Lord of the Night said:


> The World Eaters outnumber the Emperors Children by, some large number like 10-1.


Thats a random guess I presume? 



Lord of the Night said:


> The EC tried raiding the other legions for slaves at the Eye of Terror and got decimated for it. Now EC warbands are very rare.
> 
> And its from the Index Astartes.


Yes they did start raiding other Legions for slaves etc, but that doesn't mean they got decimated. Im still to see any evidence.



deathbringer said:


> I'm guessing the blood angels or wolves as many of their founded chapters are destroyed due to taint. Plus wolves were hit hard by the burning of prospero and then conflicts with the alpha legion


A question for the OP: Are we talking about the _entire_ legion, loyalist wise - including all the successor chapters? Or just the chapter itself?

Otherwise the most powerful _Legion_, is undoubtedly the Black Legion.

Oh and by-the-way I presume were talking about the state of the legions in M41 deathbringer, rather than immediately Post-Heresy.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Has to be the Salamanders who traditionally have a lower number of Battle Brothers than your standard Codex Chapter even at full strength.


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## Azkaellon (Jun 23, 2009)

Currently the blood angel's Due to there Civil war and the Fight against the word Bearers.


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## cranvill (Jul 20, 2008)

I would agree with Spikey the salamanders have one of the smallest lego's due the long processe of training up a space marine, For the Chaos side i would probley go with Black legionne at first thort as lots of fluff points to them fighting lots of wars and crusades to try and redeam themself's after the failing of the HH.They have also been at the forfront of all abay's black crusades.
But on the other hand if going by fluff then the black lego have recoved or stole more gene seed then any other chapter (Storm of Iron).

So for chaos your guess is as good as mine buddy.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

cranvill said:


> For the Chaos side i would probley go with Black legionne at first thort as lots of fluff points to them fighting lots of wars and crusades to try and redeam themself's after the failing of the HH.


No, the Black Legion are easily the most powerful Traitor legion. As an example its mentioned in _Dark Creed_ that they outnumber the Word Bearers Legion 10:1.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

cranvill said:


> But on the other hand if going by fluff then the black lego have recoved or stole more gene seed then any other chapter (Storm of Iron).
> .


You mean the Iron Warriors right? :victory:


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

No the Iron Warriros who captured all that geneseed in Storm of Iron gifted it all to Abaddon.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Minor point. With the laying down of the codex astartes all the loyalist legions are now chapters and limited in size to 1000 marines. There is no such restriction on the traitor legions. As a result i would be very surprised if any of the original loyal legions could overpower any of the traitor legions. The numbers simply aren't there. Of course there are now chapters derived from those original legions but they don't count. Do they?


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> No the Iron Warriros who captured all that geneseed in Storm of Iron gifted it all to Abaddon.


http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Honsou

No thats not true either, Honsou used a lot of that geneseed when he got back to his legion's Medgengrad for himself to create a bigger company. As soon as two warsmiths Lord Toramino and Lord Berossus had been denied them the rights to that geneseed they were pissed as hell and had war with him. 

Do you really think the Iron Warriors were going to work for the black legion like work dogs?:shok:


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Well considering that Lexicanum article doesn't even include exactly what sort of geneseed is captured and instead says it's a repository of Imperial Fists geneseed I'm gonna take it with a grain of salt- it's a repository for a large percentage of ALL geneseed, so yes there would be some geneseed from the Sons of Dorn but it would be in the minority.

I know the Iron Warriors gifted the Black Legion with a large portion of the captured geneseed in payment for Abaddon's support in reaching Hydra Cordatus in the first place- they didnt go through the Eye of Terror to get there or back, just because that lexicanum article doesn't include that information means very little as lexicanum is an extremely dubious site and should never be used as a reference but more of a port of call to point you in the right direction to find credible sources.


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## Raptors8th (Jul 3, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Has to be the Salamanders who traditionally have a lower number of Battle Brothers than your standard Codex Chapter even at full strength.


Where did you get this?

I voted wolves because although they are the second strongest _chapter_ they only have one under-strength successor chapter, less than anyone else but maybe the sallies


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

The Salamanders Index Astartes article- they have 7 companies with each only having just over 100 battle brothers in each.

EDIT: plus I'll look through my WD collection to find the issue that supports my claim regarding the Iron Warriors/Black Legion.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Well considering that Lexicanum article doesn't even include exactly what sort of geneseed is captured and instead says it's a repository of Imperial Fists geneseed I'm gonna take it with a grain of salt- it's a repository for a large percentage of ALL geneseed, so yes there would be some geneseed from the Sons of Dorn but it would be in the minority.
> 
> I know the Iron Warriors gifted the Black Legion with a large portion of the captured geneseed in payment for Abaddon's support in reaching Hydra Cordatus in the first place- they didnt go through the Eye of Terror to get there or back, just because that lexicanum article doesn't include that information means very little as lexicanum is an extremely dubious site and should never be used as a reference but more of a port of call to point you in the right direction to find credible sources.


Okay.....



Baron Spikey said:


> No the Iron Warriros who captured all that geneseed in Storm of Iron gifted it all to Abaddon.


key word all????

Your still dead wrong. :grin: Infact that part is so wrong that I'm surprised you didn't admit you were wrong. I mean thats basically the main plot of Dead Sky Black Sun. I would also disagree with you about that site being a credible source. It very well is a good source. Its the one site I know that has all the information it contains. If you have a better source please let me know.:good: In fact it lists its sources on the bottom of a page, but whatever right?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> Okay.....
> I would also disagree with you about that site being a credible source. It very well is a good source. Its the one site I know that has all the information it contains. If you have a better source please let me know.:good: In fact it lists its sources on the bottom of a page, but whatever right?


No Ckcrawford... Just no!

Lexicanum is a wiki, thus is edited by fans, who each have a different perception of the background and most are biased.

Read through a few articles on there and you'll be able to see obvious elements of bias, some pages are even completley incorrect. As the Baron said, its a good starting point, but try never to actually use it to backup an argument - people generally just won't take you seriously if your quoting lexicanum as a reference.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

I vote for all legions being insanly laughably weak I mean in all honesty in wars consisiting of billions of combatants armed with weapons that can kill 50 marines in one shoot it would take almost every legion in existence to change the course of any war, I mean the simple idea that any legion could do anything beyond act as a elite infantry support unit for the the regular forces involved is laughable. In closing considering their pathetic numbers I firmly believe that marines should play a much smaller roll in warhammer fiction regardless of how cool they are....and don't pull that their space marines crap for logic sake I could have 10 sixty foot combat mechs in world war 2, and do to their being so few it still wouldn't do a hell of alot.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Okay I admit to being wrong for generalising and saying ALL.


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## techwitch (Nov 6, 2009)

Im saying White Scars, been almost nothing seen of them save for their primarch running off into the warp after someone.


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## cranvill (Jul 20, 2008)

I know the white dwarf you are talking about in reference to the iron warriors it was just before the Eye of Terror campane that GW held. There was a brief thing in a Wd were all the traitor legionnes were paying homage to abaddon exsept for the iron warriors cose they were away on a mission for him to find a prize beond reckoning. Then after the campaine the was a battle report were the iron warriors were fighting the black legionne to keep a chaos gate open into the eye of terror that also menstioned the fackt of the geenseed going to abaddon.

But to top it all off at the end of Storm of Iron Hounson even talks of the geenseed going abby.I know he took some for himself ( well come on who wouldnt lol) But the vast majarity of it abby.
I only know this cose i used to be slightly obsessed with 40 k fluff and espaley iron warriors even to the point were i built a 10k army of them lol.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> No Ckcrawford... Just no!
> 
> Lexicanum is a wiki, thus is edited by fans, who each have a different perception of the background and most are biased.
> 
> Read through a few articles on there and you'll be able to see obvious elements of bias, some pages are even completley incorrect. As the Baron said, its a good starting point, but try never to actually use it to backup an argument - people generally just won't take you seriously if your quoting lexicanum as a reference.


True however, the site is checked and corrected and for information that you can find in the book it is much easier to go to. There is no "bias" when looking for facts in a book such as the one mentioned. If your going to quote a fact from something that hasn't been written unbias then sure I will agree with you (The Iron Cage Incident) my favorite example.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

It is checked eventually and people do reference their sources, BUT I've checked articles a few times- not believed what I discovered on a minor point, so I checked the reference source and apparently some of the info was a figment of the editor's imagination.

Examples:
The Marines Malevolent were apparently descended from the White Scars yet when I checked every source it never mentioned who their primogenitor is- eventually it was changed but thats besides the point. 

Another article I changed myself after I was alerted to the fact it was stating that Njal the Rune Priest was a member of Ragnar's Wolf Guard despite all evidence suggesting otherwise.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Blood Angels. They took an absolute pounding during the Arkio crisis and then another battering when Fabulous Bile started playing clone the space marine with their Gene Seed. I mean they were so depleted they had to boggart squads from their second founding chapters to make their numbers up to something approaching combat strength. 

Methinks Fabulous is due a rather major beating for that...


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

You mean Fabius? Fabulous is something entirely different :grin:

Well when the new BA Codex comes out we'll see if they've used the novels as canon material and what condition the Chapter is in- until then I consider the chapter to be at full strength.


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## shaantitus (Aug 3, 2009)

Fabius deserves a fabulous beating.


I still maintain that all the original loyalist space marine legions are outnumbered by the csm legions. Due to their limit of 1000 marines. No doubt about it. So it has to be one of the loyalist chapters.


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> You mean Fabius? Fabulous is something entirely different :grin:


Noooooo I mean Fabulous :laugh: I have a wealth of evidence that he is in fact a fashion desighner from the planet minceonia-poof poof.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I picked Raven Guard. In my oppoinion they never recovered from HH. After the big Isvaan Massacre there numbers were not there no more, their primarch was nowhere to be seen, and they had to result to making monsters to help boost numbers. Look at them now supports their weakness in #s. Little to none second foundings, and there worthy mentions in fluff is non existant. Hell there tatics is hit and run while hiding, they are the weakest to me by far.


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## Fangio (Nov 23, 2008)

I would disagree that the Raven Guard are the weakest. They have definitely recovered their numbers. Corax went and killed every single of the abominations he had created and then went a little mental from grief but only once he brought his chapter back to full size (post-codex size). The Raven Guard actually have three Second Founding Chapters, which isn't bad. Their hit and run tactics were in use during the Great Crusade when they were a Legion, so I don't think that the fact they fight in a more subtle manner than, say, World Eaters can be used as an argument against their size. They don't have a huge amount of fluff (but about the same as the White Scars) but what little fluff does exist points to them being at full strength.

I choose Alpha Legion as there could be only 12 of them left for all we know.


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## Dr Mattheus (Jan 16, 2010)

well its obviously the emperors children their name in the voting list is the longest, so they are obviously compensating for their lack of power with a long name


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

According to the chaos codex the black legion were given a right pasting following the heresy as they lost the most during the heresy and lost alot in the eye of terror civil wars that followed, most of the current black legions strength comes from renagades and members from other legions who have agreed (for whatever reason) fight with them. Most of the other traitor legions are roughly the same size but are far more dispersed.

as far as loyalists they are all just chapters so are limited to about 1050 men so all pale to the size of the legions


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

I am quite new to 40k fluff so sorry of I am speaking out my rear end. Contrary to other posts I would have thought the Space Wolves would have been the largest loyalist force of the founding chapters due to the fact they never towed the line regarding the re-org by the Ultramarines primarch. In their codex they have 12 active great companies equivalent to 12 chapters. So in theory they must be up their in the strongest of the founding chapters. If I have it wrong do advise Sorry I don't have a clue who is the weakest with regards to the original question.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Each of the Space Wolf Companies doesn't have as many Marines in it as an entire Codex Chapter, they're just as autonmous as a Chapter. They do have more Marines in each companie (and obviously more companies as well) but each is only about between 100-200 in numbers.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

I would say Night lords because you hardly ever hear them attacking in numbers or getting stuck in a big fight. They are very seclusive, and without their primarch are basically like they were forgotten and allowed to do what they please. They are mostly mentioned joining renegade or other warbands or legions in small groups as sabatoge/infiltration then anything. (source: Chaos 5th edition codex: were with the Red Corsairs on the attack of a SM chapter for their geneseed.)


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Each of the Space Wolf Companies doesn't have as many Marines in it as an entire Codex Chapter, they're just as autonmous as a Chapter. They do have more Marines in each companie (and obviously more companies as well) but each is only about between 100-200 in numbers.


I don't know how reliable the Lexicanum is http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Wolves but it quotes each company to be anywhere between 150-1000 marines. Even if we took the minimum of 150 that would 1500 or 500 more than a codex chapter. Bearing in mind the size of the Fang and their fleet I would expect the number to be higher than 1500. If anyone else has any reference material let us know.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Well yeah the Fang was large enough for the entire Legion to reside there, just like the Ultramarines Fortress on Macragge is large enough for a force many, many times larger than the current Chapter.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I didn’t think the Fortress of Hera was larger than the fang...... I would think the fang would be larger....... and vastly more powerful really.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

I didn't say the Fortress of Hera was larger, and the Fang is regarded as the second greatest Fortress after the Imperial Palace on Terra- what I said was that the Ultramarines fortress was constructed to hold a force vastly larger than the current Chapter (and yes the Ultramarines Legion was much larger than the Space Wolves Legion), the Fang is a hollowed out mountain, the largest mountain in the Imperium in fact. 

A lot of that space in the 41st Millenium is unused though because the current Chapter (whilst larger than a Codex Chapter) is still much smaller than the old Legion.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Oh, my mistake. :laugh:


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

plz can we get back to topic. which is ------> At this time what legion has the least power?

not which legion is the strongest! but the one that is the weakest.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

emperors children


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

i say Night lords. but i also like to think Words Bearers because they are simply getting slaughtered by everyone. Example: Black Templars killing alot of them, Ultramarines killing them, etc. lol


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

If I were to put the strength of the Legions/Chapters into ascending order (i.e. the weakest at the top, strongest at the bottom) I'd separate them into Loyalist and Traitor categories as follows:

*Imperial*
Salamanders
Blood Angels
Dark Angels
Iron Hands
White Scars
Raven Guard
Space Wolves
Imperial Fists
Ultramarines 

*Traitors*
World Eaters
Emperor's Children
Thousand Sons
Night Lords
Death Guard
Iron Warriors
Alpha Legion
Word Bearers
Black Legion


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> If I were to put the strength of the Legions/Chapters into ascending order (i.e. the weakest at the top, strongest at the bottom) I'd separate them into Loyalist and Traitor categories as follows:
> 
> *Imperial*
> Salamanders
> ...


I would put the thousand sons much lower on the list but other than that damn fine work.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Well I did consider the Thousand Sons being lower down but then I had this 'flash' and realised- they can't recruit new marines, their Legion can only ever get smaller.

The middle 3 of both lists are pretty fluid and interchangeable as far as I'm concerned.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Well I did consider the Thousand Sons being lower down but then I had this 'flash' and realised- they can't recruit new marines, their Legion can only ever get smaller.
> 
> The middle 3 of both lists are pretty fluid and interchangeable as far as I'm concerned.


Im almost certain I read somewhere that Thousand Son sorcerers are able to 'reanimate' the Rubric Marines by placing their souls back into their armour.

Aside from that whats stopping powerful sorcerers from creating more Rubrics from Renegade Marines? Obviously not on the scale as the 'Rubric of Ahriman' but individually created Rubric Marines?


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

hmm...interesting idea- well really the list is fairly fluid with only the weakest/strongest being cemented in my mind (unless convinced otherwise).


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## winterwolf (Jan 22, 2010)

Almost everything I've ever read on Space Wolves has them being at near pre-Heresy legion size. They don't use the Codex Astartes and they weren't broken up into successor chapters (baring the failed Wolfbrothers chapter). Each Great Company is near to the size of a normal marine Chapter.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

winterwolf said:


> Almost everything I've ever read on Space Wolves has them being at near pre-Heresy legion size. They don't use the Codex Astartes and they weren't broken up into successor chapters (baring the failed Wolfbrothers chapter). Each Great Company is near to the size of a normal marine Chapter.


This was sort of my understanding to although they may be down a little on pre-Heresy numbers. Although others may have spawned successor chapters, these are different to the spawning chapter. I think the Wolves stand at 8k+ in Marines alone. This would make them by far the largest stand alone chapter.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Chimaera said:


> This was sort of my understanding to although they may be down a little on pre-Heresy numbers. Although others may have spawned successor chapters, these are different to the spawning chapter. I think the Wolves stand at 8k+ in Marines alone. This would make them by far the largest stand alone chapter.


The only trouble is that there is no proof for this- and that whilst they are bigger than a Codex Chapter, I'd say no more than 1,000-2,000. The only reason the Black Templars haven't been censured with great prejudice by the Imperium is the fact that they're so spread out no one can prove they're 5,000-6,000 strong, the Space Wolves aren't any where near as decentralised.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> The only trouble is that there is no proof for this- and that whilst they are bigger than a Codex Chapter, I'd say no more than 1,000-2,000. The only reason the Black Templars haven't been censured with great prejudice by the Imperium is the fact that they're so spread out no one can prove they're 5,000-6,000 strong, the Space Wolves aren't any where near as decentralised.


From what I have read from the sources available to me they would certainly suggest the Wolves are much bigger than you are giving them credit for. They also have the Fang and Logan standing behind them and I don't believe Logan gives a hoot about what the Imperium thinks about the size of the chapter. The attitude seems very much that if you want to pick a fight with the Wolves on home turf you better bring loads of men willing to die. I think the Imperium realises this and turns a blind eye as they realise they would cause more damage than good by setting foot on Fenris with ill intention.

Really Guilliman's actions while guarding against treason also fatally flaws some chapters. The one who had their geneseed stolen by Huron Blackheart springs to mind.


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Codex: Space Wolves pg.17- states that Ragnar Blackmane's Company is second only to the Great Wolf's, and that it has 200 warriors.

That kind of suggests that each company is no where near a Codex Chapter in size. Now you provide your sources suggesting otherwise- using Lexicanum as a direct source will be discounted as BS.


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

I would have to say Blood angels.

I know that they live the longest out of marines but they are a dying chapter that are losing more members to the red thirst/black rage and becoming those mutants that are kept in the tower that the exalted guard


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## Stephen_Newman (Jul 14, 2009)

Interestingly why would anyone vote dark angels????


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## raverboi (Jan 15, 2009)

my first choice would be the death guard as the army itself is going bad 

but after a short laugh

i'd have to say blood angels, for we are cursed and but a single step from damnation


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## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Maybe it's the secrecy and the fact they don't share the same internal trust that is present in the other legions/chapters- I would certainly consider them one of the weakest first founding chapters, though personally I still wouldn't consider them the weakest.


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

Tsons...only since the only sentient marines they have left are their sorcerers, which is only a fraction of their former numbers


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

After starting to read _Soul Hunter_ its becoming clear just how desperate of a situation the Night Lords are in. As for strength of the traitor legions go, I would say the Night Lords are the weakest.


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## Chimaera (Feb 1, 2010)

Baron Spikey said:


> Codex: Space Wolves pg.17- states that Ragnar Blackmane's Company is second only to the Great Wolf's, and that it has 200 warriors.
> 
> That kind of suggests that each company is no where near a Codex Chapter in size. Now you provide your sources suggesting otherwise- using Lexicanum as a direct source will be discounted as BS.


I saw that to but by definition battle hardened (as it says 200 battle hardened wariors) within the SW's would mean Grey Hunter or above as it is only after emerging victorious from the fiercest of battles are they considered for promotion to GH. By this definiton I am guessing Blood Claws, Sky Claws and Swift Claws would not fall into the battle hardened category. I guess the question here is how many various Claws are maintained by each company.

The codex also mentions the Fang hangars hold hundreds of ships each capable of holding enough SW's to change the course of a war. I guess how many SW's does it take to change the course of a war is the question here. The codex also mentions the Fang holding over 100 Dreadnoughts which is pretty impressive bar Marines. The codex also states the chapter was only divided once so I guess the next question was how big was the Legion before it's division.

Another consideration I think that is worth taking in to account is I would imagine each company would have some of their number seconded to other duties e.g. ship protection, HQ specialisms, Fang Garrison duty, bodyguard duties etc otherwise how could the Fang maintain itself (this could also be true for other Chapters but the Fang and it's fleet sounds a bit of a beast). This would mean the fighting companies may not be refelective of their or indeed the Chapter's true number. I would imagine their must also be an immense amout of Support personnel within the Fang albeit they would not be Marines.

Lastly Logan's company should be the biggest and it could be quite a bit bigger considering it is the Alpha company and also has the Wolf Priests, Iron Priests & Rune Priests and aforementioned Dreadnoughts under Logan's disposal. Really the codex alludes to the Fang being so large and so active that there must be a significant number of Marines wihin the Chapter.

In summary I would love to know the true figure even if it was much less than my estimation. The codex alludes to a gigantic force but then there are some anomalies e.g. Ragnars company size quoted although maybe open to interpretation. I also guess the size of a company can wax and wane dependent on if the company/chapter has just been engaged in a large battle.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Yeah your just pulling at loose strings now....! The Baron provided conclusion evidence...


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## Radagast (Feb 19, 2010)

I would say thousand sons, cause since after Ahrimans ritual, no one was left, just emty shells.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Radagast said:


> I would say thousand sons, cause since after Ahrimans ritual, no one was left, just emty shells.


Just because Rubric Marines are not truly sentient does not mean that the Legion's power is minimal. They are still utilised as warriors, and are arguably more effective than they were pre-Rubric.


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