# Why no Salamanders successors?



## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Just to clarify I mean from the 3rd founding onwards as we know why there are no 2nd founding successors.

After all the only information we have about their geneseed says:

_"As far as can be determined by the Magos Biologis of the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Salamander's gene-seed appears to be both stable and as yet uncorrupted."_

So why no new Chapters? Why use Ultramarines geneseed ahead of the Salamanders when the Salamanders geneseed is described in Massacre as in the screenshot attached to this post as superior in resistance to temperature and only the DG have a greater tolerance to toxins.

We know that Terra kept stocks of all 18 legions geneseed and so there would be spare geneseed to use. It could be argued that this was destroyed in the Siege of Terra so ok, in the 10k years since how much geneseed has been given by the Salamanders to the Adeptus Terra tythe so there will have been enough to produce many times the 1000 needed to produce a new Chapter.


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## Lord of Lustria (Jun 21, 2015)

Perhaps it is because people in the imperium are very xenophobic and the black skin and red eyes of the salamanders unsettles and upsets them? That would be my guess.


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## Tawa (Jan 10, 2010)

I believe the daemon-like appearance has been covered as a bit of a negative before. Can't think where though...... :scratchhead:


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Lord of Lustria said:


> Perhaps it is because people in the imperium are very xenophobic and the black skin and red eyes of the salamanders unsettles and upsets them? That would be my guess.


The black skin and red eyes is reaction between the geneseed and the inherent radioactivity on Nocturne, so if a successor chapter were raised on another planet, the issue wouldn't arise.

We also know that as the Heresy stands, there are only approx 800 Salamanders, so they would have been in no position to contribute to the second founding even if they wanted to. Which they weren't. Vulkan, along with Russ and Dorn, was a big opponent of the Codex Astartes, and eventually only went along with it in the end for fear of a second civil war if he didn't.

It is rumoured that the Black Dragons were founded using Salamander geneseed, but no-one knows for sure.


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> The black skin and red eyes is reaction between the geneseed and the inherent radioactivity on Nocturne, so if a successor chapter were raised on another planet, the issue wouldn't arise.


The codex image in the OP indicates the eyes are a factor of the gene seed, even on Terra, while the skin pigmentation occurs with any extended radiation exposure... which Nocturne has in ample supply, given, but I think the factors would manifest in any successors with the variety of environments Astartes encounter over their hundreds of years of life.

It is weird they have no successor chapters. Outside of their appearance giving people the willies, I wonder if Vulkan's status as a Perpetual has played any role in this? It probably wasn't known outside of highest levels of the Lords of Terra, but might go into the decision making to just leave them alone. Wouldn't that be interesting, to have a whole Chapter or even Legion of perpetuals?


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Well the sallies dies like anyone else, they certainly havent inherited that trait. Unlike Corax's shadowwalking that some of his sons share.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Khorne's Fist said:


> The black skin and red eyes is reaction between the geneseed and the inherent radioactivity on Nocturne, so if a successor chapter were raised on another planet, the issue wouldn't arise.
> 
> We also know that as the Heresy stands, there are only approx 800 Salamanders, so they would have been in no position to contribute to the second founding even if they wanted to. Which they weren't. Vulkan, along with Russ and Dorn, was a big opponent of the Codex Astartes, and eventually only went along with it in the end for fear of a second civil war if he didn't.
> 
> It is rumoured that the Black Dragons were founded using Salamander geneseed, but no-one knows for sure.


There may have been only 800 left at the end of the Heresy but at the end of Istvaan V there were approximately 3000 of them left as per the attached screenshot.

Good call about the Black Dragons, it would be interesting to know what they looked like out of their armour (ie their eyes and skin)



Over Two Meters Tall! said:


> The codex image in the OP indicates the eyes are a factor of the gene seed, even on Terra, while the skin pigmentation occurs with any extended radiation exposure... which Nocturne has in ample supply, given, but I think the factors would manifest in any successors with the variety of environments Astartes encounter over their hundreds of years of life.
> 
> It is weird they have no successor chapters. Outside of their appearance giving people the willies, I wonder if Vulkan's status as a Perpetual has played any role in this? It probably wasn't known outside of highest levels of the Lords of Terra, but might go into the decision making to just leave them alone. Wouldn't that be interesting, to have a whole Chapter or even Legion of perpetuals?


I'm not sure that Vulkan being a perpetual would be know even by the High lords. I reckon that like Corax's ability it was probably known by the Emperor and probably Alpharius too as we know from the Seventh Serpent that he knows about Corax's ability.



Brother Lucian said:


> Well the sallies dies like anyone else, they certainly havent inherited that trait. Unlike Corax's shadowwalking that some of his sons share.


Fair point but having extra resilient Marines descended from a loyal Legion wouldn't hurt.


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

zerachiel76 said:


> Good call about the Black Dragons, it would be interesting to know what they looked like out of their armour (ie their eyes and skin)


There's a BD featured in one of Kyme's Salamander novels, but I can't remember how he was described.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

This image is from Death of Antagonis.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

From Armageddon, though they had strengths that gave them better resistance to heat conditions and toxins, they were slightly slower and smaller than their other kin. It was enough that older stats gave them basic initiative of three.


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## el_machinae (Nov 17, 2014)

I might be missing something, what makes you think there are no successor chapters? There are an incredible number of chapters with unknown founders.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

el_machinae said:


> I might be missing something, what makes you think there are no successor chapters? There are an incredible number of chapters with unknown founders.


Absolutely, however it is weird that apart from the Storm Giants and Black Dragons there are not even rumours about other successors. There is no info about other Chapters who have glowing eyes (which we know from Massacre is the other readily identifiable geneseed marker for the Salamanders) and for such a famous (in a good way Chapter) to have no Chapters claiming lineage from them despite 10K years passing since they were nearly annihilated.

The Raven Guard suffered horrific problems with their geneseed due to the events of Deliverance Lost and yet they were still able to produce 3 2nd founding Chapters (Raptors, Black Guard and Revilers) despite having roughly the same number of survivors after Istvaan V (around 3000). 

I'm not including the Carcharodon Astra in this as technically they were of an unnamed founding which I'll call the 1.5 founding since they were expelled from the Raven Guard even prior to the Heresy and so they cannot be counted as 2nd founding (although in official records they are probably counted as such.)

We also know from Massacre that some of the Iron Hands went insane and we also know that the Iron Hands 2nd wave were also annihilated (described in Veritas Ferrum audibook) yet there were enough survivors to produce The Brazen Claw and the Red Talons at the end of the Heresy.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

ckcrawford said:


> From Armageddon, though they had strengths that gave them better resistance to heat conditions and toxins, they were slightly slower and smaller than their other kin. It was enough that older stats gave them basic initiative of three.


Smaller? I've read slower but never smaller.


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## KINKYWULFEN (Oct 22, 2015)

They do its just they don't pay child support.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I always felt Salamanders suffered from heavy casualties due to their environment and the missions they were sent on. That could be partly why their companies are undermanned.

I do believe though that their intimate testing is the hardest of all astartes. Im sure that doesn't help how they look in terms of a force with the high lords.


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## Mellow_ (Aug 5, 2012)

Their smaller size may be attributed to their home world and radioactivity levels. Which could over generations cause stunted growth. Also black skin can be caused by generations of a people exposed to sunlight. So I feel the skin colour isn't a huge trait on a successor chapter. ... The red eyes though. Definitely more of a hint at their gene seed origins! 

I also think of all the chapters, the Salamanders are on of the most worthy to be legion sized due to their kindness to the rest of humanity.


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## SonofVulkan (Apr 14, 2010)

My Home-brew Sons of Vulkan used to be a Salamander successor chapter but they had Power Armour issues (#1) and then got lost in the warp. (#2)



#1. GW changed there paint range. Shining Gold turned into Gahenna's Gold, which was a completely different shade and any new painted models looked completely different, tut.

#2. By lost in the warp I mean sold on e-bay.


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