# Thoughts on Thousand Sons



## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

I was checking out Warseer for some new rumours and I came across this post regarding the Thousand Sons legion:



> They suck. But with a lot of effort they can be made to work. Let's do a list, shall we?
> 
> 1) Heavy weapons only on vehicles. This means that you have to spend a lot of points on fragile Predators and Dreadnoughts in order to take down enemy vehicles.
> 
> ...


Now is it just me or has this guy hit the nail on the head with this post? I don't think I could sum up my feelings about the playability of the Tsons any better in all honesty and I am one of the many who is desperately hoping that the new Chaos codex coming out this year will finally fix their rules. And for pete's sake GW, if you do put the Chosen of Ahriman in the book, please specify if the sorcerer can teleport with the Rubric squad he is part of or not!!!


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## Anphicar (Dec 31, 2006)

For a second i thought you would say "What a liar!" but you didn't, you acknowledge your army's weaknesses, yet you stand by it. 

But yes, that is very true, all of it.

Especially the wind of chaos bit. I have played the Sons before and really that is all that did me harm (albeit was my fucking Archon.)


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

While most of those points are accurate, the document is loaded with hyperbole. The individually-mentioned concerns are problems, but not on the scale the OP suggests they are.


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

Haven't we already done this thread? I agree with some of the guys points, but most are a bit overexaggerated...


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## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

Yeesh Ouch >.o gotta be frustrating to play with TS at least make them be able to use like some heavy weapons and special weapons at least, but doesnt seem to put any real clear restrictions on possesed or chosen, so can you still use them like normal? or are then limited to just sorcerers too?
As well as it doesnt even restrict obliterators from what i can see, doesnt even mention them, true only one squad of 3 but obliterators can make a diff, some one point out please if im missing something about TS in my codex though i am probably wrong missing something somewhere just thought id throw it out there


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

No cults can use Obliterators. They are for Undivided legions only, like Raptors and such


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## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

I see thx for clearing that up wasnt sure, but what about Chosen with Reaper autocannons and possesed with their daemonic upgrades?


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

The problem with Chosen and Possessed is that they are even more expensive than Rubrics. They aren't very cost effective in a regular list but when you use them in a TS list, you have to pay the cost for them, the mark, and then any weapons and psychic powers you want to use. And considering that you are paying the points to make them all sorcerers, it doesn't make sense simply because by that point, they are too expensive already to justify taking powers.


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

Possessed definatley, I have used them in my own TS armies to great benefit.

And I've never used Chosen, but looking at the TS part of the codex, thier Chosen are listed as having no restrictions, so yeah I guess you could get a couple Reapers. Only problem is you're putting more spendy troops in an already somewhat expensive army...


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## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

Yeah guess the massive amount of points would restrict your numbers even more and cut your already small number of marines, so i see its probably not worth it dwindiling already scarce troops, but on the other hand, possed and chosen terminators say to have one sqaud or so, already come with stats to added to their profiles, i dont kno im just tryin to help heh :?


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## the cabbage (Dec 29, 2006)

I keep re-reading the codex to find a way to play thousand sons but I still cant find a way which will allow me a decent chance.

How would you feel about keeping the slow and purposeful but losing the extra wound? The points should drop way back to 16/17.

If that were the case I'd sign up tommorow!


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## LongBeard (Dec 22, 2006)

I do agree with top post, they are definately one of the more 'challenging' Chaos armies. Their lack of heavy and special weapons while adding In the lack of mobility which Is key In 4ed screws them pretty bad.
Fallen Angel over on FLAME ON! posted this beast up a while back, could be an option with that many BoC's :twisted: 

Lord with lightning claws, speaky bits, BoC, 3 thralls 
Lieutenant with Dark blade, ccw, speaky bits, BoC, 3 thralls 

5 Rubic Terminators incl champ with chainfist, ccw, BoC and 3 thralls 

Favoured rubric squad with champ with fist, speaky bits, 3 thralls and BoC 
Favoured rubric squad incl champ with fist, speaky bits, 1 thrall, winds of chaos and factory rhino. 

Indirect defiler 
Dread with twin las and daemonic possession.


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

Thousand sons need better psychic abilities and the option to take 2 heavy weapons AND 2 special weapons per squad with the ability to move and fire all weapons.

I think that would make them worh taking.


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

No, that would make them insane. With those abilities, the heavies and specials would cost at _least_ double what you pay for them now and most likely a higher points tag on each individual model.

I think the best means of improving the list would be to lower the basic cost of each Dustboy by a fair few points. From there, a general reduction in the cost of psychic powers and the addition of Obliterators at the cost of Possessed (since the former seems far more Tzeenchian to me than the latter) and perhaps a lascannon-lite psychic power. This way, the list would encourage use of large numbers of warriors, backed up by a few powerful fire support options. This is far more in line with the way the Thousand Sons wage war than what the current list can produce.


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## Anphicar (Dec 31, 2006)

I agree with uber on that one. The thousand sons would easily rip through every other army with those options.

But you are right. They woldbe worth taking!


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## Wrath of Khaine (Dec 29, 2006)

In the last codex Bolt of Change was strength 9. They nerfed it to 8 now, which makes Thousand Sons eat it on armor penetration. I think favored rubric squads should be able to take a single heavy weapon. They were a powerful imperial legion after all and should have a small quantity of heavy weapons around or recently gained through warfare. They should be less points definitely.

-Khaine-


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## pathwinder14 (Dec 27, 2006)

I guess the real question is what can be done to make them better without making them broken?

Less points? More heavy weapon options? Move and fire heavy weapons? No intsta-death? LD required to assault them (they are trapped spirits after all)? Better Daemons?


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

No ID would go a LONG way imho. Having 2 wounds does you no good when you are being shot with ID weapons. I have seen a Basilisk shot take out almost an entire squad of Rubrics in one turn. When you are paying 250+ for each troop choice, that is a massive loss. No ID would make the mark a tab more worthwhile. I also think they should have access to special weapons at least. After all, if you can pull the trigger on a bolter....

As it stands though, they really do need an overhaul and something to make them more focused on magic I think. One thing I have always disliked was the idea that the Rubrics are automatons. Why not set the fluff up so that while their physical bodies have been destroyed, their armour is now basically their body? And if their spirits still inhabit the armour and allow them to be concious of the battlefield and such, why can they not learn to use different weapons, etc. The automaton thing just doesn't do it for me at all.


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## Anphicar (Dec 31, 2006)

Thats true.

But thats also crazy, too. Some would object to that. But that would make the worth their points.


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## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

Hrm... well no ID may be a little much for basic troops, but hell nids have synapse, but might add +1 base toughness so they cant be killed out right by S 8 & 9 weapons greatly reducing the ID weaps to TS marines, and maybe 1 heavy weapon OR one special using slow and purposeful rules, shaving off some points too would be nice for them as well


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## Wrath of Khaine (Dec 29, 2006)

The Wraithlord said:


> And if their spirits still inhabit the armour and allow them to be concious of the battlefield and such, why can they not learn to use different weapons, etc.


That's the problem. With the current shoddy fluff, they are totally mindless and not conscious of the battlefield whatsoever. The sorcerers in the army are technically 'willing' them via powers to move about and attack. 

Why even have spirits in there, IMO. It should be more along the lines of the Thousand Sons guy from the Space Wolf novel. Some mild intelligence should be there AT LEAST. Why the hell even put spirits there if they are worthless. Just make them psychic automata generated by the sorcerers, sans the spirits and the lack of options. A sorcerer should be very able to tell them to pick up different weapons too. Those damn bolters aren't welded to their hands.

It really just doesn't make much sense. I think the sorcerers should also be spirits, ala Space Wolf. Trapped in their armor but their psychics kept their intelligence at the previous powerul level.
On the heavy weapons, even limiting each weapon to certain amounts it fine, as to not have tons of assault 1 lascannons. I would make them a standard toughness 5, drop the 2 wounds and reduce the points big time.

-Khaine-


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## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

Well, i said the 5 Base toughness to make the 2 wounds more viable but yeah dropping the 2 wounds and 5 toughness would make them much cheeper, but then... not much seperating them from a normal marine or if you go 5 toughness a plague marine, i think the 5 toughness 2 wounds and at least some heavy weapons would work out well, just dont make the marines so rediculously expensive for what they gain and they are spirits because of the fluff, thats how the story line worked out for them
Thats might opinion on it at least


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

Again, I'm going to say on the heavy weapons side of it... Thousand Sons have as much of a restriction to heavy weapons as do the World Eaters, but they get along fine with what they have as do the Thousand Sons if you play them right. They don't need an overhaul, they need a slight revision. The best idea I've heard and the only one so far that I've seen that would be attainable is the immunity to insta-kill.


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## Wrath of Khaine (Dec 29, 2006)

It really just doesn't make sense that they can't take weapons besides bolters. It's pretty retarded. They didn't just stand up one day and throw away all their armories to hold onto bolters for eternity. It's as mindless as their armored selves.

I think they should sit back and think about what they should really look like. The rules are playable, but that's not the point. The lack of options and rules barely staying close to what the Thousand Sons even are is bad.
Some of it just doesn't make sense for them, regardless if the army is playable and can win games.

-Khaine-


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## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

I still think immune to ID might be going too far, but in another sense, not really if you stay restricted on heavy weapons, just i think it would be a little nice for TS players to see some heavy weapons, i mean doesnt need to be a whole overhaul, just let them use some guns, give them 5 base toughness so they can still be ID, its just alot harder, i mean all your marines walking around basically with runes, just another means to tack on more points onto them imo just making them a little harder to kill and maybe little less restrictions on heavy weapons is all i am saying, not an overhaul

And with World Eaters, they are also much faster, get alot of attacks, chop up infantry with out soaking up as many points, leaving more room for your heavy support preds and possibly even a land raider


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

DaemonsR'us said:


> And with World Eaters, they are also much faster, get alot of attacks, chop up infantry with out soaking up as many points, leaving more room for your heavy support preds and possibly even a land raider


World Eaters can be faster, but they can also be guided into speed traps or tarpits, they get a lot of attacks but have to be out in the open way more, they're only 5 points cheaper per model with one wound, and Thousand Sons can have the same Predators and Land Raiders. I have two Predators in my Thousand Sons list and I have 58 models, my World Eaters army (yes, I happen to have both... Sons are being built currently) is 51 models...


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## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

Yes your comments on World Eaters are valid, but this is about TS, so rather not veer too much off course  If you would like there can be a topic started about World Eaters to carry on
Back to Thousand Sons I stand by the comments i made earlier, thats what i personally think would work out well for Thousand Sons, but thats just Imo


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## uberschveinen (Dec 29, 2006)

Wait. Thousand Sons can have Predators?

Well, you just lost all your right to moan about needing more heavy weapons. My Black Templars have been dealing with having heavy firepower all but restricted to vehicles since day one and I've gotten along fine.


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

And I respect everyones comments as well.. and I was not derailing with talk of the World Eaters. They are a valid comparison when everyone complains about the 1k Sons because they are almost identically restricted on the same items. But wierdly everyone complains about one and not the other. And I also understand and respect the comments about the fluff side of things and I could also see some improvement there, but the post was originally about how unplayable and crap supposedly they are. Its a great discussion, but we've done this one or two times already...


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## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

I guess you could say its not to make Thousand Sons playable, just easier i guess, making a good list with out having to possibly jump through hoops to get it competative, granted some may like that challange


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

I would just like them to once again be as viable in competitions and any other marine army basically. While they are playable I don't think anyone can really say that they are competitive to be honest. So long as you are facing an opponent who knows what the Sons can/can't do, there isn't much you can do from keeping him from stopping you cold and in short order. Now this isn't to say that I want them to go up to IW levels of cheesability either but seeing all legions be on par with each other would be awesome in my book.

Tsons lack of heavy firepower, overpriced models, and lack of mobility are killers to the army. While they may not need reworking from the ground up, the fix is going to be more than simply a small revision as mentioned above. Nurgle armies are in a similar boat but this is a thread about the Thousand Sons dammit! Now lets come up with the idea solution, email it off to GW and MAKE them use it


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## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

yeah! lets actually settle on something! =D i dont play Thousand Sons but i do like them and see actually a few armies played in my area and im sure all of them would like a little more variaty in their armies


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

I will stand by my opinion that they need a tweak here and there only and a bit of direction towards thier fluff, are very viable in any level of competition, they require a bit more finesse than any of the other cults and that usually results in an unplayable or weak label. We've hashed this out enough in 2 or 3 threads about the same army and I'll step away now and keep building my very competetive Thousand Sons list...


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## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

Good luck to you  post it up when your finished im very intrested in it


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## blkdymnd (Jan 1, 2007)

Alright, this is a list still mostly intact from when the Codex very first came out. I've used the same variation of this list on and off since then. I've played one tournament in one of the incarnations of this list and placed 2nd overall. Its done very well in one off games...

Sorcerer
Dark Blade
Wind of Chaos
Eye of Tzeentch
Disc of Tzeentch

9 Possessed (modelled as "gifted" loyalist marines)
Demonic Talons
Rhino
Mutated Hull
Smoke

3 X 9 Thousand Sons
Aspiring Champion
Power Weapon
Bolt of Change

2 X 9 Flamers of Tzeentch

2 Predators
Autocannon
Lascannon Sponsons

1998 Points
58 Models


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## DaemonsR'us (Jan 25, 2007)

Wow impressive, hrm very nice when you close in with the bolts of change, might i add warp focus its not much and i dont think you would wanna sac the points, but throwing it out there, extra D6 to bolt of change


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## The Son of Horus (Dec 30, 2006)

I've won overall in two tournaments so far with my Thousand Sons, and while I see where the question of their competitive ability is, I don't think they really need to make significant changes to them. 

My list is lurking around somewhere... I'm far too lazy to repost it at the moment. Too much typing... haha... but yeah, check my All is Dust tactica article... it might be in there... or maybe somewhere in the army list section. I don't know.


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