# Daemon Prince w Mark of Tzeentch



## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

okay, so i have been looking around a couple of threads regarding daemon princes. everyone yaps on about the DP with wings, MoS and lash. this is no good for my army, cus i have no slaaneshi marines. i need your opinion, would a DP with wings, MoT, Warptime and Bolt of change be a good HQ choice, because my sorcerer costs 230 points, a bit too much for an average game. the way i see it is i have a CC meat-shredder who re-rolls, who can take out any tank from 24" or less, who can take a demolisher hit and still have a 50-50 chance of saving, and he can move 12". how is that not worth 195 pts?


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

I usually field mine with the Breath of Chaos, simply because it is a nasty template and I usually use him to kill marines. As for his worth, I have had great success and terrible failure with this guy. That said, I would say it is how you use him.

BTW, great choice!


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## Annabelle (Nov 24, 2008)

I play 1k sons and run a Dp with MoT, wings and 2 powers. Warptime is a must, but after many games i find Wind of chaos to be far better then Bolt of change. The Bolt is just to chancey, i make more points back consistantly with Wind. Get some oblits or mech for anti armor. Dp is there to smash.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Annabelle said:


> I play 1k sons and run a Dp with MoT, wings and 2 powers. Warptime is a must, but after many games i find Wind of chaos to be far better then Bolt of change. The Bolt is just to chancey, i make more points back consistantly with Wind. Get some oblits or mech for anti armor. Dp is there to smash.


i want my DP to be able at least immobilise out a land raider from afar, then he can swoop in with his wings and rip it to pieces in combat.. i could always change what power i want him to have depending on what army im fighting against


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## Annabelle (Nov 24, 2008)

I killed 1 vehicle in like 10 games with bolt on my prince. After 2 psy tests, (warptime, bolt) which are always fun if you play someone who makes you roll 3d6, (damn eldar) rolling to hit (even with rerolls) then rolling on vehicle damage table. Your prince usually just ends up looking stupid. Get oblits or a melta squad for your LR problems.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

Yeah, overall Wind of Chaos will be more useful to you than Bolt of Change. There are plenty of other anti-tank options available that are better than Bolt. Obliterators firing lascannons will generally do a better job.


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## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

The way I do is:

MoT: Warp Time, Wind of Chaos. Flame template with re-rolls
MoS: LoS. = Movement Man
MoN: Warp Time. = Close Combat Beast
MoK: (No Magic)

Cheers,

Chaosftw


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## Someguy (Nov 19, 2007)

mcmuffin said:


> i want my DP to be able at least immobilise out a land raider from afar


Realistically, his chance of doing this is tiny. 3 to hit, 6 to glance, 6 to immobilise, then maybe a 4+ cover save to negate it. It's anything from 1/48 to 1/96. 

The best way for you to stop a land raider is with melta weapons and lascannons. Obliterators are a great source of both and plague marines are able to carry meltas in a decent concentration.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Someguy said:


> Realistically, his chance of doing this is tiny. 3 to hit, 6 to glance, 6 to immobilise, then maybe a 4+ cover save to negate it. It's anything from 1/48 to 1/96.
> 
> The best way for you to stop a land raider is with melta weapons and lascannons. Obliterators are a great source of both and plague marines are able to carry meltas in a decent concentration.


but bolt of change is strength 8 AP1 so he still gets +1 armour penetration, which means he only needs a 5 to immobilise. i might get some oblits, because so far almost everyone has recommended them.


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

mcmuffin said:


> but bolt of change is strength 8 AP1 so he still gets +1 armour penetration, which means he only needs a 5 to immobilise.


Yeah, but you still need to hit (easy), then glance (not easy) to even get a chance to roll on the damage table at all.


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## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

Katie Drake said:


> Yeah, but you still need to hit (easy), then glance (not easy) to even get a chance to roll on the damage table at all.


Ya I am with Katie on this one. Definitely not the best execution of a DP if your giving it a BoC... It anything give it MoT, Warp Time, and Wind of Chaos because then you can flame the Land Raider and on a 4+ its an Auto Glance. and with Warp time up incase you roll a 1-3 you can re-roll it. It wont kill the LR but it can not allow it to shoot/move for a turn meaning if you get some fists in there / Assault it with the Daemon prince you auto hit and then get 2D6 for penetration. MUCH better then a silly and Expensive Bolt of Change.

Chaosftw


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Thanks guys, wind of chaos seems to be pretty good, so i think that is what i will field him with. Is gift of chaos good for taking out high power models like an eldar avatar or named special character. it seems like one of the weaker powers, but i am not sure how useful it would be
also, a DP with mark of khorne, is it really that good?


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## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

mcmuffin said:


> Thanks guys, wind of chaos seems to be pretty good, so i think that is what i will field him with. Is gift of chaos good for taking out high power models like an eldar avatar or named special character. it seems like one of the weaker powers, but i am not sure how useful it would be
> also, a DP with mark of khorne, is it really that good?


IMHO No, I would say it is arguably the worst of the 4 marks for the simple fact that you don't get magic. Yes you get extra attacks but with out something like Warptime ... you can miss and be less effective then a DP that ya has less attacks but is almost guaranteed between 3-5 wounds.

MoK on a DP gives you 5 base attacks + 1 for charge or something like that.
- You need 3's to hit. (you have a chance of rolling 1's and 2's)
- 2's to wound on most things. (you can still roll 1's)

MoN, MoT, and MoS on a DP gives you 4 base attacks + 1 on the charge.
- You can now have magic and if Warp Time is taken you now re-roll failed hits and wounds.
- You Need 3's to hit with re-rolls. (so now any 1's and 2's can be re-rolled to almost guarantee 4-5 hits)
- You need 2's to wound most things. (So now any 1's are re-rolled to more less guarantee 4-5 power weapon wounds.)

Chaosftw


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## Mud213 (Nov 20, 2008)

mcmuffin said:


> Is gift of chaos good for taking out high power models like an eldar avatar or named special character.


As for this, there are other threads here in the Tactics section that discusses it's usefulness. It depends on a lot of things including whether you are playing annihilation, whether you feel lucky and whether you think there aren't better psychic powers to take.

It's fun to turn your friend's pitiful Eldar or Necron "god" into a gibbering mass of flesh but you'll still have to be lucky. Even if you have 2 Tzeentchian DP, both with GoC, there is still a chance that nothing will happen and you just wasted both of their shooting phases on that.


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## Hashulaman (Apr 9, 2008)

The DP with Winds of Chaos and Warptiem is an excellent HQ choice. I use to run Tzeentch DP with wings, warptime and bolt of change. Works pretty good against mech armies, not so good against against armeis with lots of models. Winds of chaos doesnt work so well against Other CSM players that daemonic possesion on their vehicles. Basicly if that happens you have a 50% chance of getting a stunned or Shaken result which daemonic possesion just ignores.


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## TattooedGreenMan (Nov 4, 2008)

I hate to sound stupid but what is lashing? Did I miss this somewhere?


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## Katie Drake (Nov 28, 2007)

TattooedGreenMan said:


> I hate to sound stupid but what is lashing? Did I miss this somewhere?


Run a search for any thread dedicated to Lash of Submission.


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## The Sullen One (Nov 9, 2008)

mcmuffin said:


> okay, so i have been looking around a couple of threads regarding daemon princes. everyone yaps on about the DP with wings, MoS and lash. this is no good for my army, cus i have no slaaneshi marines. i need your opinion, would a DP with wings, MoT, Warptime and Bolt of change be a good HQ choice, because my sorcerer costs 230 points, a bit too much for an average game. the way i see it is i have a CC meat-shredder who re-rolls, who can take out any tank from 24" or less, who can take a demolisher hit and still have a 50-50 chance of saving, and he can move 12". how is that not worth 195 pts?


I've been using a Slaneeshi DP with lash in conjunction with Khorne Berserkers, and generally it's effective, not to mention comical, so I don't think you neccessarily need slaneeshi marines. That said i want to try other combinations so I might give the Tzzentchi guy a go.


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## Galahad (Dec 21, 2006)

The reason the lash prince is so popular is because he's both extremely powerful and extremely cheap.

It doesn't mean the other versions aren't effective or worth their points though, just means you don't get as much bang for the buck (though to get the most of lash you have to build yoru list around it)

Personally, I think a Tzeentch DP is about the best you can do besides the Lash.

However, I think taking Bolt of Change is a mistake.

The DP is a melee monster. He does the most damageand is most effective when he's in close. Wings get you in close faster. Warptime is most effective when it's combined with assault as well, giving you the most rerolls. MoT's extra strong invul save does wonders for assault where power weapons and fists are more common than AP3 or better shooting weapons.

So you have an assault strong unit, with an assault friendly mode of locomotion, and a power that is most effective when used in conjunction with an assault...and you give him a long-ranged, single-shot tank hunting weapon for his second power?

What you *really* need is Winds of Chaos.

Now you have an unstoppable beast. You use the wings to close in and get in close enough to use your short ranged template attack. You use your high armour save and boosted invul save to survive the round or so of shooting the enemy has at your expense. Now that you;re in close you unleash a truly devastating template attack that is made even more lethal by the rerolls from warptime, *then* you charge in, using your massive combat ability and warptime rerolls.

You will devour anything you come in contact with.

The only flaw is because you can no longer consolidate into assaults, you run the risk of ending up wiping out the unit in your assault phase, leaving you vulnerable in the enemy's turn.

BUT, if you're in danger of killing too much, you can always reroll your *successful* hits and wounds and hope to fail (The warptime ability just says you may reroll to hit and to wound rolls, it doesn't say 'failed' hots or wounds), actually letting you pull your punches.

Best combo besides Lash, IMO


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## Chaosftw (Oct 20, 2008)

Galahad said:


> Personally, I think a Tzeentch DP is about the best you can do besides the Lash.


I have to disagree. I have used the DP with MoT, wings, WT and WoC and has worked well for quite some time but then i realized... DP, Wings, MoN, and WT. Greatest combo IMHO being able to fly up smash things in close combat and then on avg. units needing 4's or 5's to hit and usually 6's to wound. Your usually winning combat with ease.

Just my opinion 

Chaosftw


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