# Sisters of Battle Rumours



## Loli

Surprised Zion hasn't got to this first. Anyway I couldn't find a thread mentioning this yet so here it goes. 



> Sisters of Battle are getting a codex. What is it and how will it look is still a ways out. I have been hearing an occasional whisper or two on what is coming. Here is a brief on what I have been hearing over the last few months. But wait, there is some new hints of Sisters of Battle that were suggested over at the Enter the Citadel event. I have those listed here as well.
> 
> 
> Sister's of Battle
> From Various Sources and a lot of speculation
> *They are not being dropped. They are getting their codex.
> *There was some model design issues (common knowledge) from some time ago
> *The army is currently not up to 6th edition standards, and needs to be fleshed out a lot (more units variability background etc)
> *The codex was being worked on at one point, and stopped.
> *Whispers of an Inquisition codex may have some bearing on this codex. (like moving from Daemonhunters to Grey Knights)
> 
> Recent Sisters of Battle News
> via Enigwolf on dakka (thanks for the links)
> I attended all of the Design sessions and because there weren't many people around, I manage to have very good, long conversions with Phil Kelly, Jervis Johnson, Guy Haley, and Jes Goodwin. I asked almost all of them about SoBs, and from the sounds of it it's not in the pipeline anytime soon. However, Phil Kelly has expressed interest in it, although he really wants to work on the IG 'dex because there's a certain "human" element to it missing from all the other races. He also mentioned that there are 3 Citadel Designers who have full SoB armies as their main army, and reassured me that they're still around. It's apparently also hard to "get rid" of a dex's contents once introduced, so no fear of Codex: Black Templars, etc. becoming a supplement. I prodded him more about how Witchhunter and Daemonhunters became Codex: GK, and he told me he wasn't involved in that, but it was an oddity within the office.
> 
> Oh yeah, one last thing about the Sisters of Battle. According to Phil Kelly, the reason why they never got plastic minis was because they couldn't be plastic moulded by the current process. He wasn't really sure what the issue was, but there was something about the sculpt which meant that it could only be cast in metal. Presumably this led to declining SoB sales and a lack of development in them as a result.


http://www.natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/sisters-of-battle.html?m=1


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## Zion

I was out part of the day. Until Heresy gets a staff cafeteria I need to do things like go shopping for food, and filling out paperwork for the community college,.

I'll add a couple notes of my own:

Sisters currently have issues in there current design having a lot of undercuts. I'm sure the newer designs have tried to address this, but there is still an issue with the sleeves and how to attach them so they hang naturally in relation to the arm position. I don't know what the proposed solution to that is.

I've also sent in a 9 page letter last month (yes a letter, not an email) detailing everything I could give them in both pros and cons on everything from my experiences playing the army and talking to others who do. This was basically play test feedback to give them some ideas of how the army is holding up and actually plays. I can't say they'll read it but I figured it was more proactive than sitting on my butt hoping for a new codex.


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## Loli

Yeah most players - Sisters players at least - were aware of the modelling issue. Which does make sense. So assuming this rumour is true it will be interesting to see how they have got around the issue. 

Well for me I'm buying my sisters from GW still, yes it's costing me a lot, only buying one set a month so 3 sisters a month - some times more if I'm a good boy - , but at least it would mean GW are selling sisters even if I'm the only one doing it. So that's my way of doing something. 

If true, its interesting that Phil Kelly has an interest in Sisters and 3 Citadel Designers have Sisters as their main force, since that flys in the face of the belief that people in the design team or at GW had any interest in them. So that could only be a good thing. 

The final part regarding the lack of sales seems logical too, but that reads to me as a confession that the lack of sales is mostly down to it being metal, which is something many players have stated frequently. 

I'm not taking any of it as gospel and just keep my hopes up for more info each Month, but it is somewhat interesting if true though.


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## Jace of Ultramar

Just out of curiosity, how do the Sisters play in 6E? I'm not familiar with the army, but, curious as to their archetype in game.


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## Kettu

This is new information? Sorry, must be in a time warp here, sounds like everything that has been said about them for the past few years just repeated.

_'Sisters are not being dropped'_ and _'can't transition into plastic'_ is pretty much *EVERYTHING* that has been said to this point for the past few years. 
Wake me when it's something new.

:boredom:


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## Zion

Jace of Ultramar said:


> Just out of curiosity, how do the Sisters play in 6E? I'm not familiar with the army, but, curious as to their archetype in game.


Less and less good as each new codex comes out. They have a good shot against Tyranids, Vanilla Marines, Blood Angels, Grey Knights and Space Wolves, but everything else has been an attempt to not get tabled in my experience.



Kettu said:


> This is new information? Sorry, must be in a time warp here, sounds like everything that has been said about them for the past few years just repeated.
> 
> _'Sisters are not being dropped'_ and _'can't transition into plastic'_ is pretty much *EVERYTHING* that has been said to this point for the past few years.
> Wake me when it's something new.
> 
> :boredom:


The new part was Jervis specifically stating that Sisters were being worked on and weren't forgotten and Phil Kelly actually saying _anything_ about them. But yes, it's what most Sisters players already knew.


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## Magpie_Oz

Zion said:


> The new part was Jervis specifically stating that Sisters were being worked on


Where did he say that?


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## Zion

Magpie_Oz said:


> Where did he say that?


Here. It's not stated directly, but seeing how long Dark Eldar were worked on in sporatic spurts I think this is still a fair statement:



> *SISTERS OF BATTLE/BLACK TEMPLARS *will get attention and are not in line to be dropped at this time. I spoke to Jervis Johnson and asked him myself and he said "Every army is getting worked on and will be updated in time."


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## Magpie_Oz

OK so the "New bit" isn't actually mentioned in the thread until now.

I have to agree with Kettu this is really nothing more concrete than anything that has gone before.

The "telling" statement from the reported discussions for me is "It's apparently also hard to "get rid" of a dex's contents once introduced" which points very strongly to them having looked very seriously at removing the army.

The only concrete thing I have seen in recent times that might be classified as something new for the Sisters is there absence from Apoc.
Not sure if anyone can confirm and I've not really seen the book beyond a quick flip through the shop copy but do they even rate a mention anywhere in the book?


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## Zion

Magpie_Oz said:


> OK so the "New bit" isn't actually mentioned in the thread until now.
> 
> I have to agree with Kettu this is really nothing more concrete than anything that has gone before.
> 
> The "telling" statement from the reported discussions for me is "It's apparently also hard to "get rid" of a dex's contents once introduced" which points very strongly to them having looked very seriously at removing the army.
> 
> The only concrete thing I have seen in recent times that might be classified as something new for the Sisters is there absence from Apoc.
> Not sure if anyone can confirm and I've not really seen the book beyond a quick flip through the shop copy but do they even rate a mention anywhere in the book?


The comment about getting rid of an army could also be applied the Templars though and their book. Either way it's a wait and see game.

So this came out of another Faeit212 post:



> Phil Kelly confirms that Sisters of Battle could not be plastic moulded (and told us to check with Jes Goodwin for more information - I stupidly forgot to do so). He mentioned it had something to do with the amount of detail on every side and the way that the moulds were limited in two directions as well as their method of release.


I'd say that firmly points to Sisters will likely see at least some changing in their aesthetics as their current design that the studio was shooting for didn't work, assuming they weren't just trying to update them with the least amount of changes in plastic.

Perhaps there are issues with the shoulder pads and they haven't worked out how to make those a separate piece without making things worse? The detail there would cause some issues if it was still attached to the torso for molding I'd bet.

Honestly I can live with losing the sleeves as long as the boob-plate becomes less pronounced, or becomes something more reasonable, and the Sisters still keep their iconography. We'll see however. I'm just prepared for them to gain a new look that doesn't match the old one.


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## Archon Dan

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you guys. I also want to be able to say that I've fought every army. Of course, that still leaves Black Templars for me to fight too. Of course, I should have kept track of which of my armies fought each too.


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## Chryckan

Bit of Topic... But when I read the headline Sister of Battle Rumours and then Loli underneath I sort of jumped a little in my seat. It looked a bit suspicious until I realized that it was a nick.


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## DeSteele

Magpie_Oz said:


> The only concrete thing I have seen in recent times that might be classified as something new for the Sisters is there absence from Apoc.
> Not sure if anyone can confirm and I've not really seen the book beyond a quick flip through the shop copy but do they even rate a mention anywhere in the book?


 You’re correct in that they have said in the distant past they were not going to Squat an army but it is good to get it repeated.

Think the new news here, is that it was confirmed that people in the design studio do play them (apparently three of them) and that Phil Kelly likes the army. I have that in writing from the man himself so can confirm that.

I have heard on another forum that the Divine Inspiration table in Apocalypse apparently references SoB but I have been unable to confirm that as I do not have access to the book.


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## Zion

DeSteele said:


> You’re correct in that they have said in the distant past they were not going to Squat an army but it is good to get it repeated.
> 
> Think the new news here, is that it was confirmed that people in the design studio do play them (apparently three of them) and that Phil Kelly likes the army. I have that in writing from the man himself so can confirm that.
> 
> I have heard on another forum that the Divine Inspiration table in Apocalypse apparently references SoB but I have been unable to confirm that as I do not have access to the book.


Sisters are indeed mentioned on the Divine Intervention table as being able to use the Imperium's Divine Intervention (which requires you to lose half your army to use, something Sisters will have no issue doing in Apoc). They have no formations, strategic assets or super heavies to call their own though. Maybe one of the Warzone books will fix that later after they get a codex update though?


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## rasolyo

@Loli

I think that if you dig up one of the older threads by MadCowCrazy in 2010-2011 (before the WD codex hit), you'll find the exact same points being made on the status of SoB updates, with the exception of the edition being 5th instead of 6th.

- Sisters were hard to sculpt.
- Sisters were not being dropped.
- Sisters would probably be reincarnated with some Inquisition elements, seeing as how GK were being revamped.
- The Witch Hunter codex needed to be updated anyway. Rhinos were still 50 points apiece at the time.

Also, sad to say, it's probably the very reason it hasn't been posted here when it came up. This is nothing the SoB community doesn't already know.


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## Zion

rasolyo said:


> @Loli
> 
> I think that if you dig up one of the older threads by MadCowCrazy in 2010-2011 (before the WD codex hit), you'll find the exact same points being made on the status of SoB updates, with the exception of the edition being 5th instead of 6th.
> 
> - Sisters were hard to sculpt.
> - Sisters were not being dropped.
> - Sisters would probably be reincarnated with some Inquisition elements, seeing as how GK were being revamped.
> - The Witch Hunter codex needed to be updated anyway. Rhinos were still 50 points apiece at the time.
> 
> Also, sad to say, it's probably the very reason it hasn't been posted here when it came up. This is nothing the SoB community doesn't already know.


I'd point out comment from the studio wasn't about the sculpting being hard, but rather the basic design of the Sisters not compatible with the plastic casting technology they have right now.

A great example of a problem area that would cause problems in casting is the shoulder pad. If the torso is cast as a solid piece like it usually is then the shoulder pad would have under cuts on it due to the details on top and the curved surface. If you attach it to the arm then the army can't be reposed as the shoulderpad isn't attached to the arm like the Marine one in the Sister's design and would look wrong if repositioned. If made a seperate peice than you have to take into consideration how it attaches to the torso, and if the torso is made in two like the Marine one to get past the undercut on the curved surfaces you still have small undercuts on the sculpted detail on the shoulders on the wings that surround the Ecclesiarchy I and the Fleur-de-Lys due to both having curved sections that move in the opposite direction from the rest of the detail creating a problem where the small detail would get hooked in the mold and likely be damaged when the sprue is removed.

Now this isn't impossible to fix, as I mentioned making it a separate piece, but then ensuring it always fits the same place means that the torso has to be split and then a peg or tab set-up used, and this requires testing and tweaking to ensure it always comes out right.

Then you have sleeves, and rosary beads that circle the waist (more small detail that could be sheered off), and so on. All these things in the design need to be adjusted, or possibly removed and tested over and over. I was reading in one of the Faiet article comments sections that it can take upwards to 10 months for them to be ready to mill the final version of a sprue to use for production, and that's assuming there aren't complications. With Sisters, it could be a year or more if they started with a design that was heavily based on the one we have currently.

I'm alright with GW making tweaks and changes, I understand that it comes with the nature of dealing with plastic, but I also know that they're going to try and stick with the original vision of the army while at the same time updating it's feel to fit in with the more modern aesthetics of the army which means this will take time.

Honestly I'm willing to bet that the models have been sculpted (Jes is frankly too good at what he does, and there are too many sculptors there to assume that there hasn't been at least some work done. Updating the current kits actually -reduces- the number of different models needed as the default pose will be the same for all of the Battle Sisters bodies frankly. We're looking at going from 51 different models to *maybe* 20, not counting conversions and different wargear combinations) and maybe there is stuff sitting around waiting for the next codex project to kick off, but the sprues, and thus the models those will make, will need to be finalized so that all the versions of the Sisters we see (online, in the book, in the WD, in the studio armies, and the ones we get) match up so when we finally see everything it all looks like one solid, cohesive product line.

Sisters are coming, and considering the level of pride the Studio employees have in their work I'm willing to bet they'll be awesome when they get released.


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## Mokuren

Chryckan said:


> Bit of Topic... But when I read the headline Sister of Battle Rumours and then Loli underneath I sort of jumped a little in my seat. It looked a bit suspicious until I realized that it was a nick.


Lolis of battle.

Damn, now I have to get my hands on some pretend-anime disproportioned miniatures and paint them all in bright colours. It will be awesome.


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## Bindi Baji

Zion said:


> Now this isn't impossible to fix


I'm pretty sure they found a way around this a fair while ago


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## Chryckan

I can't help love the eternal optimism of SoB players and their almost masochistic wishes for some love from GW.

I'm willing to bet that GW already have the codex and minis done because their having too much fun pulling the rug out from under the SoB players feet and crushing their willing to live just to see it rise up again.

SoB players reminds me more and more of Cubs fans.

Cubs fans: _This year we'll win the world series!_ Doesn't win. _AHWWWWW!_
SoB players: _This year we'll get a new codex!_ Doesn't get a new codex. _AHWWWWW!_


(For the record I do have a small SoB army too..  )


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## Bubblematrix

The original post really sounds to me like some over-enthusiastic SoB fan spoke to the designers and was told what they need to hear.

No self respecting member of the GW team is going to turn to anyone, especially a big SoB fan and say "actually, we soft canned them, we can't ditch them but right now we have popular armies to work on" - it would be a PR nightmare, anything more is reading into what was said imo.


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## Zion

Bindi Baji said:


> I'm pretty sure they found a way around this a fair while ago


That's possible, but again I was just sharing some insight on what was (or is) making it impossible for us to see Sisters in plastic. 



Bubblematrix said:


> The original post really sounds to me like some over-enthusiastic SoB fan spoke to the designers and was told what they need to hear.
> 
> No self respecting member of the GW team is going to turn to anyone, especially a big SoB fan and say "actually, we soft canned them, we can't ditch them but right now we have popular armies to work on" - it would be a PR nightmare, anything more is reading into what was said imo.


Strangely enough the folks who were asking about the Sisters from what I've been seeing don't play them.

And seeing as GW is the same company that has taken down a lot of ranges recently (40k Collectors models, and Specialist Games) I don't think they'd really have _that_ much trouble killing the army if they wanted. Not to mention they don't gain anything by lying. Sales don't suddenly go up because there might be a codex someday so they might as well tell the truth.


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## Kettu

*I Commit Thread Necromancy*

*Rolls D20*

19, My action passed.

***

Wait, wait... It's a 'new' and relevant rumour post.

So just the other day I was talking to the Redshirt- _*Wait! Please, just hear me out*_
So, as I was saying, Redshirt at one of my local GWs and our conversation came to Appoc, the absent Sisters and if they even still counted as a faction any more at this point.

At this point he showed me an email the store had received 'A few months ago' from 'on high'.

I can't remember the exact wording but in a nutshell it said that the Sisters of Battle are not to be mentioned as a faction within 40k nor are they (the store) to try and sell them for the time being. If a customer wishes to buy them, show them how to do so but otherwise they are not to be considered a part of the game despite the miniatures still being available via the net.

My friend, the Redshirt, then explained to me it's most likely the no codex situation that prompted this as it doesn't read like the emails they get when certain stock is actually being removed for good but otherwise there is no justification given for the email there-in and unlikely to be one at all given, even if he was to ask.

So there you have it.

At least as far as the Australian stores are concerned, the Sisters no longer exist.
For what reason or to what extent or timeframe isn't known and unlikely will be.

Store Location and Staff Name withheld in advent I wasn't to actually know about this.


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## locustgate

Kettu said:


> Thread Necromancy


I weep for the lost of fun kit bashes.


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## Archon Dan

That's a little depressing. But I do get it as there is no easy way to get the WD codex. But a solid answer would be nice. Not telling new players about them but letting the models be bought online is so odd.


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## locustgate

Archon Dan said:


> That's a little depressing. But I do get it as there is no easy way to get the WD codex. But a solid answer would be nice. Not telling new players about them but letting the models be bought online is so odd.


Maybe slowly weeding them out, unlike the squats
"Hey they got rid of the space dwarfs" vs "The Sisters of what?........... oh I thought they were only in books."


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## Mokuren

At this point I don't even care anymore if they squat them, I don't even care if GW's marketing department takes a plane to go right in my house and pass twenty minutes laughing their hoarse, spitful laughter right in my face before boldly announcing they're canning my models and have been enjoying drinking my tears for all this time.

I just want to know if there will ever be a future or if it's just indecision on whether to soft can them or actually cancel because they don't have the guts to handle it on a PR level and aren't sure whether anyone actually cares enough to cost them sales. There will come a day when I will have a little better personal situation and thus enough money to devote a small part of it to models, and I'd like to know whether I can still play Warhammer or not.

I'm just asking for a clear answer, all this passive aggressive PR silence bullshit is really starting to get to me.


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## The Son of Horus

Zion said:


> I was out part of the day. Until Heresy gets a staff cafeteria I need to do things like go shopping for food



Unacceptable. You will be fed when and if we remember to put dry food in the staff munchies bin.


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## Bindi Baji

Kettu said:


> So just the other day I was talking to the Redshirt- _*Wait! Please, just hear me out*_
> So, as I was saying, Redshirt at one of my local GWs and our conversation came to Appoc, the absent Sisters and if they even still counted as a faction any more at this point.
> 
> At this point he showed me an email the store had received 'A few months ago' from 'on high'.


I realise that it's easy to get upset and believe anything bad when your army have been so badly neglected but either the red shirt is trolling, winding you up, or the email was localised and in relation to constant questions about SOB,
SOB have not been squatted if they were there would have been no mention in the ally chart, 
they are being worked on and are really not that far off now.

Remember the rules about red shirts:
1) Any rumour or information coming from a red shirt carries a 90% chance of failure
2) If a red shirt tells you a particular model will really help your army there is a 95% chance of failure
3) If a red shirt offers you a hot beverage then politely decline (or run away if appropriate)


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## locustgate

Bindi Baji said:


> I realise that it's easy to get upset and believe anything bad when your army have been so badly neglected but either the red shirt is trolling, winding you up, or the email was localised and in relation to constant questions about SOB,
> SOB have not been squatted if they were there would have been no mention in the ally chart,
> they are being worked on and are really not that far off now.
> 
> Remember the rules about red shirts:
> 1) Any rumour or information coming from a red shirt carries a 90% chance of failure
> 2) If a red shirt tells you a particular model will really help your army there is a 95% chance of failure
> 3) If a red shirt offers you a hot beverage then politely decline (or run away if appropriate)


You forgot 
4) Will probably die a horrible death.......or is that just in Star Trek.


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## Magpie_Oz

Bindi Baji said:


> I....and are really not that far off now.


Give me a date ....... I know where you live ..... (Pets white cat)


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## Achaylus72

And yet i speak to the "Redshirts" and have heard only that Sisters will get a full Codex treatment sometimes late next year, also a full relaunch of all products in plastic and finecast.

Oh by the way, almost all the rumours that Sisters are getting squatted originate from GW HQ, it is a marketing ploy.


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## locustgate

Achaylus72 said:


> And yet i speak to the "Redshirts" and have heard only that Sisters will get a full Codex treatment sometimes late next year, also a full relaunch of all products in plastic and finecast.
> 
> Oh by the way, almost all the rumours that Sisters are getting squatted originate from GW HQ, it is a marketing ploy.


Be a pessimist to rumors and you will never be disappointed.


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## Karyudo-DS

Mokuren said:


> I'm just asking for a clear answer, all this passive aggressive PR silence bullshit is really starting to get to me.


And you'll get that answer. When some random WD comes out on the other side of the planet accidentally ahead of schedule and gets scanned to the internet or suddenly GW no longer sells the models anywhere. Whichever comes first!

I could understand not wanting to kill sales by announcing a book for an army that might screw some of it's models but SoB being online only and in metal... I just don't see that as an issue for GW so I would agree. Say something... or don't already. Thanks GW.

:laugh:


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## Bindi Baji

Magpie_Oz said:


> Give me a date ....... I know where you live ..... (Pets white cat)


You seem like a nice enough chap but as you live in another hemisphere dating would be very tricky and expensive :grin:



Achaylus72 said:


> And yet i speak to the "Redshirts" and have heard only that Sisters will get a full Codex treatment sometimes late next year, also a full relaunch of all products in plastic and finecast.
> .


The only place red shirts get this kind of info is on the net



Achaylus72 said:


> Oh by the way, almost all the rumours that Sisters are getting squatted originate from GW HQ, it is a marketing ploy.


While I admit GW make some strange decisions this is utterly bonkers,
unless Cocoa the Clown has quietly been put in charge of the company this is wrong


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## Kettu

Bindi Baji said:


> I realise that it's easy to get upset and believe anything bad when your army have been so badly neglected but either the red shirt is trolling, winding you up, or the email was localised and in relation to constant questions about SOB,
> SOB have not been squatted if they were there would have been no mention in the ally chart...


Well, considering I saw the actual email in question I'm going out on a limb and going to say I wasn't being trolled.
The email didn't mention if they were squatted or not, had no real suggestion except that stores are to just pretend on the most part that they don't exist for the time being.

But also this is just my inner-cynic here but the infamous Squats themselves, the very army that made themselves synonymous with removed, dropped, retro-continuityed *This a word?* out of existence, was actually a part of the 40k game as late as Codex: Imperial Guard 2nd ed, likely later. the actual point at which they were dropped officially wasn't until 3rd ed, circa 1998 and the point this was actually acknowledged verbally by GW wasn't until roughly a year later.

So as far as Sisters being acknowledged in the 6th ed BRB, if they are squatted that is, isn't a foreign concept really. The precedent was set by GW long ago.


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## Zion

The thing is Kettu, that the precedent hasn't been repeated since 2nd Edition and to continue to use it as a baseline isn't really fair to GW when we have other old codexes that have sat around for a while only to get an update at a much later date (Dark Eldar and Necrons both come to mind). Realistically there are two baselines that need to be looked at, not just one, and to cling to only the worst possible outcome as the only solution isn't realistic to the actual possibilities.

Furthermore, if this is being pushed globally, or even just in Australia, it could be a conscious attempt to not bilk customers. Currently Sisters are made only in metal (outside of the Immolator kit which is plastic and is the base of the Exorcist kit as well), a material GW is moving away from and doesn't do large batches of for anything. Furthermore all metal models are all direct only, meaning the only real way to get them is through GW directly, or by the store spending a larger chunk of their budget on ordering them. Add in the codex which has (inexplicably) not been reprinted or moved over to a digital release of any kind and you get a recipe for the worst army to sell to new players.

We've seen a lot of positive comments coming from GW Devs lately about the Sisters and how Kelly has a strong interest in doing them, and how there are members of the dev team who have Sisters as one of (if not their only) main army/armies. There was no such support or interest mentioned for Squats, and the talk about them paints it as pretty unanimous in terms of them being removed, something I don't see here. 

Now can GW still drop the Sisters? Yes. I will fully and freely admit that the Sisters could get the axe for any number of reasons, but I'll also say that while I'm prepared for it, I also don't see it as the only recourse for the army. There is just too much coming out of the studio that seems to say "this army will be coming as soon as we feel we can do it justice without sacrificing what it already is" for me to subscribe to Doomsayers Weekly just yet.


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## Karyudo-DS

Well I didn't really think after 13 years or so that Dark Eldar really even existed. So I could certainly see a sudden Sister release hit like a brick. Really no point in printing them in the allies chart if they didn't plan to release something before 7th ed. or ever. I'd just have saved the ink.

Hard to guess, but I wouldn't be surprised by either outcome.


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## Kettu

Zion said:


> The thing is Kettu, that the precedent hasn't been repeated since 2nd Edition and to continue to use it as a baseline isn't really fair to GW...


_*Cough*_Dogs of War_*Cough*_Chaos Dwarves_*Cough*_

What? I didn't say anything.

But anyway, I know all this. 
I'm just a cynic.


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## Creon

Chaos Dwarfs have an existing army book. and available models. Can't agree with you there. DoW maaaaaaybe, but it was never actually a printed book.


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## Zion

Kettu said:


> _*Cough*_Dogs of War_*Cough*_Chaos Dwarves_*Cough*_
> 
> What? I didn't say anything.
> 
> But anyway, I know all this.
> I'm just a cynic.


Me thinks you're confusing WD only books that have never been full codexes for actual codexes. That's like trying to use Kroot Mercs as an example. Squats are the only codex army that has been killed.

And Chaos Dwarves were apparently shuffled over to FW, which isn't the same thing as being dropped. And it's a good thing to because the main GW team has enough on their plates.


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## Bubblematrix

Zion said:


> Squats are the only codex army that has been killed.


There was an official full codex? I was pretty sure they never made it to paper, just faded out of the dexs they were referenced in.



Kettu said:


> Well, considering I saw the actual email in question I'm going out on a limb and going to say I wasn't being trolled.


I can send emails, just saying...


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## Kettu

Zion said:


> Me thinks you're confusing WD only books that have never been full codexes for actual codexes. That's like trying to use Kroot Mercs as an example. Squats are the only codex army that has been killed.
> 
> And Chaos Dwarves were apparently shuffled over to FW, which isn't the same thing as being dropped. And it's a good thing to because the main GW team has enough on their plates.


I seem to recall Chaos Dwarves and Dogs of War as both having actual Army Books, seeing as I have them both boxed away somewhere. 

But also, the Squats themselves never actually had a Codex themselves. I was mentioned as coming but it never eventuated during 2nd ed.

They had their own supplement in Epic but never Warhammer 40,000 itself.

As for the eventual fate of the CDs, Forge World picked them up after more then a decade or so of not existing so it was less of a shuffle and more of a reintroduction.

So my sarcastic little quip seems to be a rather valid point here.



Bubblematrix said:


> I can send emails, just saying...


You know which store? 
And the store owner wouldn't have reason to consider it a fake? 
And what would you gain from sending fake store policy emails for anyway?

Sorry, there is no real reason to consider the email a fake here, all it detailed was how the stores (I assume plural anyway, I've only the one store to base this off of) were to treat an already mostly absent army that the store would gain nothing from trying to sell to people as is, as basically completely absent.
Nothing about that seems fake to me, just another store policy.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Kettu said:


> Sorry, there is no real reason to consider the email a fake here.


There is no reason to believe anything else i'm afraid


----------



## Zion

Kettu said:


> I seem to recall Chaos Dwarves and Dogs of War as both having actual Army Books, seeing as I have them both boxed away somewhere.


Doing some actual research I see that Dogs of War were mainly a "rules in box" setup, but they did have a single book. As for the Chaos Dwarves, they were in 4 books but due to lack of players actually buying things GW stopped producing things and eventually shuffled the stuff over to FW.

From what I see of the two, the Dogs of War were never intended to be a full army but instead a way to give armies allies, making them not a true comparison here.

And Chaos Dwarves turned out to wane in popularity but were shuffled to FW in the end, so that's not exactly GW killing the army and would actually be an alright move for the Sisters if it happened, assuming the Sisters got to keep their heavy Gothic church flavor.



Kettu said:


> But also, the Squats themselves never actually had a Codex themselves. I was mentioned as coming but it never eventuated during 2nd ed.


You're right, looking further they were only printed in the 2nd Edition Compendium and never bumped up to full codex from there, still making them a poor example of what's happening to the Sisters.



Kettu said:


> They had their own supplement in Epic but never Warhammer 40,000 itself.
> 
> As for the eventual fate of the CDs, Forge World picked them up after more then a decade or so of not existing so it was less of a shuffle and more of a reintroduction.
> 
> So my sarcastic little quip seems to be a rather valid point here.


If the point looks like "it turns out Sisters are in a unique position no other army or book has been in before and we need to quit ringing the Doom Bell all the time" then you're right. Sisters have been in 2 Compendiums in the past, had 2 full codexes (though the second one was more _The Ordos Hereticus and Friends_ than the Sisters of Battle), and have a now OOP WD Codex. We're hearing feedback from the studio and the fact that the only real information we're getting comes from the Devs right now, I think at least, means it's the only truth we can really extrapolate from _right now_. There are no rumor mongers stepping forward saying that they heard the army is toast and even your email doesn't suggest that, it just says the stores don't push the army which makes sense when you consider where it's at. Those who want to play the army and have models and rules can already, those who want to and don't will have to wait.

With all of our pestering and regular asking of GW whenever the Devs appear in public is keeping the army at the front of their mind, and statements about their current design not being compatible with their current level of technology frankly tells me that they've been trying, to very little success to do something with the army. They know there are people waiting for this, but they probably aren't going to update the rules again without the models.

Who knows, maybe they'll give up a bit and redesign the Sisters completely, or just port them over to Finecast until they can work out a better deal for them in plastic, but regardless of the nature of what exactly will be the face of the Sisters in the future, it's coming, we just need to be patient.

Of course sending in a 9 page letter to Phil Kelly detailing all I've learned about the army from playing it since it's release doesn't hurt (basically long term play-tester style feedback)...


----------



## Bubblematrix

> But also, the Squats themselves never actually had a Codex themselves. I was mentioned as coming but it never eventuated during 2nd


Cheers, couldn't find anything and supplements are damned hard to google info on, clears some stuff up in my mind :grin:


----------



## DeSteele

Zion said:


> Of course sending in a 9 page letter to Phil Kelly detailing all I've learned about the army from playing it since it's release doesn't hurt (basically long term play-tester style feedback)...


Phill Kelly has had three letters from me since December with one reply. I only had 3 pages of ideas. Also sent two letters to two other developers.


----------



## Zion

DeSteele said:


> Phill Kelly has had three letters from me since December with one reply. I only had 3 pages of ideas. Also sent two letters to two other developers.


I only asked for him to write me back (or email me) if he had any questions about my input. No idea if it'll amount to anything, but I at least did more than cry and moan about the state Sisters are in on the internet.

Frankly, I've made my peace with the possibility that they might get dropped eventually, but when that happens is when GW says so, not when the Internet does.


----------



## Commander Firebrand

Sisters of Battle is always one of the armies (as well as Tau and IG) I intend to build but obviously there is no point unless they get a new codex. I just worry that GW will just forget about them and then just stop with there fluff altogether


----------



## Zion

Commander Firebrand said:


> Sisters of Battle is always one of the armies (as well as Tau and IG) I intend to build but obviously there is no point unless they get a new codex. I just worry that GW will just forget about them and then just stop with there fluff altogether


With all the fan harassment about them, I doubt it.


----------



## Achaylus72

There was a mention that SoB's had issues in production to plastic/finecast, i call bollocks.

I can't and won't believe that in 2013 and with the best production technology available that GW can have issues in producing plastic SoB's, considering that any plastic SoB will be a new design specifically to be used for plastic and finecast.

So i call bullshit on that.

GW could have the whole SoB range up and running cosidering on whom you believe they have been working off and on SoB over the last few years, the main issue is that someone in GW needs to bite the bullet and get SoB on track and within 6 months we will have SoB.


----------



## Veteran Sergeant

Karyudo-DS said:


> Really no point in printing them in the allies chart if they didn't plan to release something before 7th ed. or ever. I'd just have saved the ink.


They learned their lesson with the Squats not to totally invalidate armies and models. It's a service to their customers to ensure that their models continue to be usable in the game. It's really nothing more than that, and nothing more to derive from it than that. It's not an indication of a new line. The Squats stayed gone because they have no usable rules and no produced models. GW still produces and sells Sisters, even if only in limited quantities.

Really, what should give Sisters players _some_ hope is that GW has increased its design staff by 30% this FY. If they keep that extra staff in FY14, they should finish all of the core armies that haven't gotten a 6th Edition treatment by next year, maybe early FY15. That will then allow them design assets to devote to a niche product like SoB. Now, of course, all this hinges on them retaining the extra design staff, and not merely releasing the extra personnel when they finish all of the products. But it's more than the Sisters ever had before when GW couldn't even get a codex and new models to market for every army in every edition, which was why perennially the Sisters couldn't get any attention in the past. They were never judged to have a high enough ROI to demand design assets while other armies still needed to be completed.

Ultimately though, every answer you get from GW should just be tossed out the window. They're not going to confirm the demise of the Sisters, nor are they going to confirm their resurrection. That's not how they operate. If you're getting an answer at all, it's a blow off. Write them letters, pester them, sure. It never hurts to show there are still people out there interested in the army. But no answer you ever get is going to have even a shred of truth to it. At best, eventually one of the rumors has to be true, lol.


----------



## Zion

Achaylus72 said:


> There was a mention that SoB's had issues in production to plastic/finecast, i call bollocks.
> 
> I can't and won't believe that in 2013 and with the best production technology available that GW can have issues in producing plastic SoB's, considering that any plastic SoB will be a new design specifically to be used for plastic and finecast.
> 
> So i call bullshit on that.
> 
> GW could have the whole SoB range up and running cosidering on whom you believe they have been working off and on SoB over the last few years, the main issue is that someone in GW needs to bite the bullet and get SoB on track and within 6 months we will have SoB.


You're assuming that GW has the best production equipment available. If the only army pushing them to get it is Sisters, then it's a hard fight for sculptors to win over bean counters and board members on that, improved models or not.


----------



## Djinn24

From what I have heard Zion they actually do pretty much have some of the best equipment out there. 

The issue with producing any model on plastic is a injected plastic mould costs roughly 10k per sprue to produce or more. Bane blade was 200k so they are not cheap. 

It's probably an issue of not believing they can sell enough of them to cover the costs of the mould. 

And because something sells for say $115 does not mean that is how much they make. A majority of their sales are done at 60 percent retail so on that $115 model they only make $68ish, from that they have to pay packaging, production costs, material costs, and shipping costa. So let's give them the benefit that they make $35 from that $115 model. How many units would they have to sell before they cover design and the mould?


----------



## Zion

djinn24 said:


> From what I have heard Zion they actually do pretty much have some of the best equipment out there.
> 
> The issue with producing any model on plastic is a injected plastic mould costs roughly 10k per sprue to produce or more. Bane blade was 200k so they are not cheap.
> 
> It's probably an issue of not believing they can sell enough of them to cover the costs of the mould.
> 
> And because something sells for say $115 does not mean that is how much they make. A majority of their sales are done at 60 percent retail so on that $115 model they only make $68ish, from that they have to pay packaging, production costs, material costs, and shipping costa. So let's give them the benefit that they make $35 from that $115 model. How many units would they have to sell before they cover design and the mould?


From the last time someone talked to the Devs (I think it was Jes or Phil) the problem of not having the right equipment for what they were trying to do came up. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying their stuff sucks, just that there is even better stuff out there that they don't have yet and if Sisters need something like a sliding die mold setup to be done correctly then that cost is being added to their potential release and they have to feel that whatever they do is going to make up for that cost too, something that you have to sell to bean counters and board members, even if you can use that same technology for other products the cost is likely being added to the Sisters which makes them even more expensive to update.


----------



## Djinn24

Sliding die mould like the Baneblade? Google time.


----------



## Zion

djinn24 said:


> Sliding die mould like the Baneblade? Google time.


Alright, fair enough, but it was just an example. The point is that the Devs said they can't quite get the models where they want them and it's because they don't have the equipment they want to do it. Unless they can mitigate by pushing the cost onto another army that they know will sell better Sisters will be stuck with the bill and then seen as "too risky" to update at the moment.

Who knows though, maybe the capital from this Marine release will bring in enough cash to offset the problem somewhat.

Of course we're all speaking in "ifs" and assumptions and without any better info to dig through we're basically stuck at this level of examination of the issue.


----------



## Djinn24

No I was seriously asking if it was like the Baneblade lol. I looked up slide die molding and I can't picture how it would be used, but I am not a model designer. 

I think the Baneblade uses something like a piston injection molding or something like that.


----------



## Zion

djinn24 said:


> No I was seriously asking if it was like the Baneblade lol. I looked up slide die molding and I can't picture how it would be used, but I am not a model designer.
> 
> I think the Baneblade uses something like a piston injection molding or something like that.


Ah, I thought you were saying it used slide-die molding.

Regular molding dies are typically two parallel faces, this means that all detail has to run perpendicular to the face of the die or parallel with it in such a way that it doesn't create an undercut.

Slide-die molding is a multi-stage molding process that has you do an initial cast, then move one of the faces and do a secondary cast. It doesn't solve the issues GW might be having with the Sisters, but it is an example of a technology that exists that I could use for an example.


----------



## Zion

Zion said:


> Ah, I thought you were saying it used slide-die molding.
> 
> Regular molding dies are typically two parallel faces, this means that all detail has to run perpendicular to the face of the die or parallel with it in such a way that it doesn't create an undercut.
> 
> Slide-die molding is a multi-stage molding process that has you do an initial cast, then move one of the faces and do a secondary cast. It doesn't solve the issues GW might be having with the Sisters, but it is an example of a technology that exists that I could use for an example.


----------



## Bindi Baji

Achaylus72 said:


> There was a mention that SoB's had issues in production to plastic/finecast, i call bollocks.


It was from 2009 ish so it means little now anyway


----------



## Zion

Bindi Baji said:


> It was from 2009 ish so it means little now anyway


Enter the Citadel had Devs talking about the problems only about a month ago, so apparently it _may_ not all be roses just yet.


----------



## Veteran Sergeant

I thought the issue with the Sisters was one of GW wanting them to be a posable multi-part kit, but the sleeves on the arms being unable to hang properly when placed in certain positions. 

Basically, what happens when people try to be too creative with, say, the Chaos Marine bolters with those awful ammunition belts, which then end up sticking out at odd angles and defying gravity. Sisters arms that were posable would have ended up with gravity defying sleeves if players tried to pose them any other way than the "proper" way. Basically defeating the purpose of having multi-part posable plastics in the first place.

However, ultimately I think the biggest problem for the Sisters has been a perceived lower potential ROI than on other products. After all, they've tried to launch Sisters twice, and neither time has been overly successful


----------



## Achaylus72

Veteran Sergeant said:


> I thought the issue with the Sisters was one of GW wanting them to be a posable multi-part kit, but the sleeves on the arms being unable to hang properly when placed in certain positions.
> 
> Basically, what happens when people try to be too creative with, say, the Chaos Marine bolters with those awful ammunition belts, which then end up sticking out at odd angles and defying gravity. Sisters arms that were posable would have ended up with gravity defying sleeves if players tried to pose them any other way than the "proper" way. Basically defeating the purpose of having multi-part posable plastics in the first place.
> 
> However, ultimately I think the biggest problem for the Sisters has been a perceived lower potential ROI than on other products. After all, they've tried to launch Sisters twice, and neither time has been overly successful


I hate those frakking ammo belts.

What does ROI mean?


----------



## Zion

Achaylus72 said:


> I hate those frakking ammo belts.
> 
> What does ROI mean?


Return on Investment I think.


----------



## Veteran Sergeant

Zion said:


> Return on Investment I think.


Yeah, sorry. Sometimes I forget to not talk in business-speak.

And I hate those belts too. The worst part is they are 3/4 Bolters in the Chaos plastics kit. They're just goofy looking, the rounds are oversized, and nevermind the fact from the looks of it that it would take three arms to load them properly.


----------



## mahavira

Mildly interesting reference to SoB in the new Marines codex after a brief mention of Black Templars' relationship with teh ecclesiarchy: "Many times in its glorious history, the Black Templars have gone to war alongside the devout Battle Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas, and a complex web of mutual obligations and honour has evolved." The rule book allies chart lists Black Templars as "desperate allies" (the same as Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons and Tau) as opposed to "allies of convenience" which is what most space marines are. One wonders whether this just fell through the cracks in editing or if there will be a change to the allies matrix.


----------



## Necrosis

mahavira said:


> Mildly interesting reference to SoB in the new Marines codex after a brief mention of Black Templars' relationship with teh ecclesiarchy: "Many times in its glorious history, the Black Templars have gone to war alongside the devout Battle Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas, and a complex web of mutual obligations and honour has evolved." The rule book allies chart lists Black Templars as "desperate allies" (the same as Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons and Tau) as opposed to "allies of convenience" which is what most space marines are. One wonders whether this just fell through the cracks in editing or if there will be a change to the allies matrix.


Well on the bright side, black templars are now part of the space marine codex and thus use the space marine ally chart.

On even a brighter side I heard these rumores:



> An interesting tidbit I overheard being discussed recently is that Sisters of Battle are getting a digital codex release soon. Unfortunately, I'm still in the dark as to if there will be a physical codex release, or whether this is new material or just a repackaging of the current list.
> 
> A digital release of the White Dwarf list, no doubt. Several writers I've met this year said the real codex is currently under way.


----------



## revilo44

That rumor upbove was from Best_Pone on Warseer

Via Neko on feait212
I'm also expecting a digital release of the current list. A physical codex with new rules would most likely be part of a full wave release, complete with new plastic Sisters, and 90% of the potential customers dying from shock.


----------



## Chaplain-Grimaldus

Necrosis said:


> Well on the bright side, black templars are now part of the space marine codex and thus use the space marine ally chart.
> 
> On even a brighter side I heard these rumores:


I'm 90% sure I read that they use their own chart still? Though I could be insane.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Chaplain-Grimaldus said:


> I'm 90% sure I read that they use their own chart still? Though I could be insane.


Yep, although in the same 'dex now they still maintain a separate identity.


----------



## Zion

From BoLS:



> *via warseer's Best Pone 9-7-2013*
> 
> An interesting tidbit I overheard being discussed recently is that Sisters of Battle are getting a digital codex release soon. Unfortunately, I'm still in the dark as to if there will be a physical codex release, or whether this is new material or just a repackaging of the current list.
> 
> Please remember that moderate sodium intake is part of a balanced diet
> 
> 
> *via warseer's BrassAngel 9-7-2013*
> 
> A digital release of the White Dwarf list, no doubt. Several writers I've met this year said the real codex is currently under way.


 

Best Pone has a pretty decent track record from what I recall, so I'd give this some merit.


----------



## GrizBe

Problem with Sisters, while a digital codex keeps them alive, they're not going to be off life support until GW finally releases some plastics for them.


----------



## Loli

All the digital version will do is help the current Sisters players. Doesn't help too much regarding their army though. Not that I'd complain if we got a digital. 

But at least its something I guess.


----------



## Zion

Loli said:


> All the digital version will do is help the current Sisters players. Doesn't help too much regarding their army though. Not that I'd complain if we got a digital.
> 
> But at least its something I guess.


I disagree. I've seen people trying to get into the army despite it's current status and the difficulty getting the rules and honestly the digital book will help people jump into the army.

Besides, that opens up room for GW to tweak rules and adjust things (like the cost of the Sisters so they're more than 2 points less than a Marine) as a kind of patch until they're ready to launch the full army with new kits and the like.


----------



## w0lfgang7

I was kind of expecting SoB to get rolled into the C:SM like BT did. So, MAYBE, since they weren't it's a hint at the possibility of good news (a codex release of some flavor) down the line?


----------



## Shandathe

At this point, I'd settle for SoB being rolled into the frigging Third Street Saints. :wink: I've already started painting an Immolator in a nice soothing purple...

If we finally get the PDF of the WD version that they promised us when the WD codex came out TWO YEARS AGO, I'd be amazed if they so much as fix a spelling error. If they do change something, I'm not convinced it'll be an improvement.


----------



## Veteran Sergeant

Magpie_Oz said:


> Yep, although in the same 'dex now they still maintain a separate identity.


This is currently getting a lot of debate, but the language in the new C:SM is fairly explicit. For all rules purposes, any older publications that refer to Codex: Black Templars now instead refer to Codex: Space Marines and detachments using the Black Templars Chapter Tactics special rule. The rules for allies say that you use the line on the chart that corresponds to the codex for your primary detachment.

Codex: Black Templars is kaput, and all references to it now refer to Codex: Space Marines instead. Black Templars are a special rule, not a codex now. Thus Black Templars armies use the Codex: Space Marines, and the Codex: Space Marines ally list. Barring an FAQ that says otherwise, the Black Templars row on the Ally Chart is now meaningless. It was only published there because when 6th Edition was released, there was a Codex: Black Templars that people were using. 

Sisters players wanting, for whatever reason, to use Black Templars can do so at the AoC level now.


----------



## locustgate

GrizBe said:


> Problem with Sisters, while a digital codex keeps them alive, they're not going to be off life support until GW finally releases some plastics for them.


....yeah....that's the only reason I haven't started a SoB ally.


----------



## rasolyo

Loli said:


> All the digital version will do is help the current Sisters players. Doesn't help too much regarding their army though. Not that I'd complain if we got a digital.
> 
> But at least its something I guess.


Current Sisters players will have already bought the White Dwarf codex. And frankly, I'd rather newer players get into more established armies like Marines (more forgiving and balanced rules, plastic models) than get potentially let down by the current state of Sisters.


----------



## Mokuren

rasolyo said:


> Current Sisters players will have already bought the White Dwarf codex. And frankly, I'd rather newer players get into more established armies like Marines (more forgiving and balanced rules, plastic models) than get potentially let down by the current state of Sisters.


As much as I would like to see more Sisters around, I wouldn't wish anyone to be stuck with the current state of affairs when getting into a hobby like this one.

It's already expensive enough as it is, no need to add an extremely limited model range, atrocious costs and terrible availability to the mix, and that's without even touching the game rules.

It gets worse when you consider that said someone could get into, say, Space Marines and have an almost 7-in-1 ruleset deal, a huge range of brand new plastic models and more to play with and experiment than meets the eye.


----------



## Nordicus

An interesting thought on MiniWarGaming last night, that I'd like peoples input on.

Their theory was that the new Codexes was to be split up into 3 _(with the Dark Angels seperate from them)_

1) Imperial Guard
2) Imperium _(Space Marines and all their various chapters as supplements)_
3) Inquisition _(Grey Knights and Sister of Battle)_

The theory was that the Sisters of Battle was to be included as either a part of, or a supplement, to the Grey Knights as they are both part of the Inquisition.

As the Black Templars are rolled into the Space Marine codex, showing that GW isn't afraid of scrapping a codex and rolling it into another, the theory sounds interesting in my ears. It would make sense and would revitalize the Sisters of Battle without too much effort from GW. It would make them a smaller army, but give them a home that is less risky as the Grey Knights are popular.

Thoughts?


----------



## SSG.House

I think it sounds very plausible. I mean didnt they used to bundle the DA and BAs into one codex?
I would love to have some sisters with my Grey Knights 
Sadly SoB kits are pricey and theres not much bang to the buck.


----------



## Nordicus

SSG.House said:


> Sadly SoB kits are pricey and theres not much bang to the buck.


My suspicion is that if they do add them, they would update the models to be in resin and more aligned to current models.


----------



## SSG.House

Nordicus said:


> My suspicion is that if they do add them, they would update the models to be in resin and more aligned to current models.


I would hope so. Sadly know one really knows what is going on in the minds of GW. I do wish the SoB kits would be updated, but I think thats the last thing GW s thinking about.


----------



## Tawa

SSG.House said:


> I think it sounds very plausible. I mean didnt they used to bundle the DA and BAs into one codex?


Codex: Angels of Death.

Published 1996


----------



## Mokuren

I wouldn't mind to see SoB rolled up in the Grey Knights, since they pretty much rolled up the entire rest of the inquisition with them anyways. At least I could have sisters as troops and still have inquisitors, assassins and hey, maybe even GK allies without having to deal with SoB's fucked up allies chart.

Even though this means losing IG as Battle Brothers, which means I now have to reconsider buying into IG.


----------



## Stella Cadente

I hope matt ward the woman hater does the SoB fluff, I honestly want to see him ruin this game and its background, just because the online butthurt will be utterly hilarious.

And I bet the models will just be Shitty failcast, at £50 for 10....or 5 knowing GW, that would make me laugh so damn hard.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Stella Cadente said:


> I hope matt ward the woman hater does the SoB fluff, I honestly want to see him ruin this game and its background, just because the online butthurt will be utterly hilarious.
> 
> And I bet the models will just be Shitty failcast, at £50 for 10....or 5 knowing GW, that would make me laugh so damn hard.


Why would anyone want for this outcome?

As to the actual question at hand, Codex Inquisition would be great from my perspective as it is my long term goal to build my army to cover all 3 ordos and it may well be a good way to keep an army in the game that does have a loyal following, if not a large following.

Rolling GK, SoB and DW all in one would be an excellent boost to what is just the GK's at the moment.


----------



## Tawa

Let's keep this thread for the rumours shall we?


----------



## Nordicus

Tawa said:


> Let's keep this thread for the rumours shall we?


I'd appreciate it aye, as I was looking forward to seeing peoples thoughts on the theory I posted


----------



## Stella Cadente

Magpie_Oz said:


> Why would anyone want for this outcome?


Because I am evil


----------



## Varakir

Personally i'd love to see an inquisition codex, and I think it's much less of a risk for GW to introduce plastic SOBs as part of an existing codex.

I find Grey Knights to be quite a boring army (in terms of colour scheme, modelling options and flexibility on fluff) so it would be nice to give them a few more options in their book.


----------



## Loli

I'd welcome it, since honestly, it's been my belief for a long while that GW believe Sisters couldn't survive on their own. So I'd like an Inquisition book so long as it was an Inquisition book not Greys Knights with Sisters/DW etc allies. Though I seriously do believe this is what will happen. 

Sisters keep the spine of their list, GKs get theirs, Deathwatch get an Elite slot, possibly an Inquisitor from each Ordo giving boosts/foc changes respectively, all merged into one hell of a tome. 

So yeah its possible and I think so long as Sisters remained as Sisters not sacrifices for Grey Knights, many would welcome it. Plus st this point it seems likely to keep Sisters around short of DE/Necron style overhaul.


----------



## Kettu

Had a brief look around, didn't see this posted elsewhere.

No clue to how authentic this is.
Seems to match the rumour of the Sisters WDex FINALLY going digital with a price tag attached though.

Source is 4chan.


----------



## revilo44

Tell me that web dex is real. If so I think it will make a lot of sob players happy,myself included.


----------



## Doelago

Please let that Codex be real...


----------



## Suijin

While nice to be getting the digital version of the WD codex, I can't say that really means anything to me. I am quite doubtful they made any changes.

It has been rumored for awhile now, from Sept. 7th: http://natfka.blogspot.com/2013/09/sisters-of-battle-digital-codex.html


----------



## Loli

Kettu said:


> Had a brief look around, didn't see this posted elsewhere.
> 
> No clue to how authentic this is.
> Seems to match the rumour of the Sisters WDex FINALLY going digital with a price tag attached though.
> 
> Source is 4chan.


It's floating on Pins of War too http://pinsofwar.com/warhammer-40k-sisters-of-battle-codex-2013/

It's nice to see it being released in digital if true, but what I find funny was the bit at the end 'The codex is what you need to start an Adeptus Sororitas force'. Since honestly it's not since the models are pretty much inaccessible and unaffordable. But it's better than nothing though.


----------



## iamtheeviltwin

I like the note that snuck in that description "new Warlord Traits"...at least they are adding something. Plus as Suijin noted the digi-dex has been rumored to coming soon.


----------



## Necrosis

Kettu said:


> Had a brief look around, didn't see this posted elsewhere.
> 
> No clue to how authentic this is.
> Seems to match the rumour of the Sisters WDex FINALLY going digital with a price tag attached though.
> 
> Source is 4chan.


As much as I would love this to be true, I'm going to have to say its fake. It has the same cover as FFG dark heresy book.
http://store.fantasyflightgames.com/productdetails.cfm?sku=DH04


----------



## Creon

And why would they not repurpose the artwork? I hope it's the WD dex with updates and expansions. Or just a new dex to drool all over. If it's a hoax I shall be very...put out.


----------



## Necrosis

Someone on dakkadakka who says they have the white dwarf is stating that these rumors are true. So hey I might be wrong.


----------



## Creon

If true, it looks to drop end of the week, so be aware.


----------



## Kettu

Necrosis said:


> As much as I would love this to be true, I'm going to have to say its fake. It has the same cover as FFG dark heresy book.
> http://store.fantasyflightgames.com/productdetails.cfm?sku=DH04


By coincident, that actually further suggests that it's real to me.

One, it's noting new, just the WDex rewritten for 6th ed. GW isn't gonna really go to any real effort here.
Two, sadly, the mistakes are to be expected with something official. People who fake these things have to much pride to be caught out with known recycled artwork (They would use a obscure high quality fanart nomally) or the use of 'Adeptus' instead of 'Adepta'.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

I think GW's branding is too important to them for them to use the same picture on the cover of two different products.


----------



## Nordicus

Magpie_Oz said:


> I think GW's branding is too important to them for them to use the same picture on the cover of two different products.


This.


----------



## Kettu

Magpie_Oz said:


> I think GW's branding is too important to them for them to use the same picture on the cover of two different products.


You do realise that you can count the total number of official, high quality, coloured Sister of Battle artworks on pretty much one hand? And that it's all been used at this point for publications.
The pool of artwork for them to use is really quite small and they wouldn't commission a new artwork just for the WDex 2.0.

Anyway, meph.
*Tablet* only, I doubt anything actually new is included, it has a price tag attached and it should of happened a year ago.
There is nothing here to be excited over at all.

Sisters, the only army to have two 'hold-over' codices in a row.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Kettu said:


> You do realise that you can count the total number of official, high quality, coloured Sister of Battle artworks on pretty much one hand? And that it's all been used at this point for publications.
> The pool of artwork for them to use is really quite small and they wouldn't commission a new artwork just for the WDex 2.0.


You're completely kidding aren't you?

Say what you like about GW but when in that latest round of releases did they release something that was just cobbled together pre-existing art works ?


----------



## Tawa

Magpie_Oz said:


> I think GW's branding is too important to them for them to use the same picture on the cover of two different products.


There's the money shot.


Also, the blurb states that this is the first time a sisters codex has been a stand alone product.
I beg to differ.


----------



## Stella Cadente

Oooooooooooooooooooh that cover art gives me wood, if only that talent still existed, instead of yu-gi-oh art.

Also most of the new crap is about 50% existing art, just coloured in.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Change the record mate.


----------



## andrewm9

Magpie_Oz said:


> Change the record mate.


I. think in this case Stella is right at least regarding Sisters of Battle. I know the WD codex had no new art. In fact. the only new Sisters art released by GW in the last several years was on Hammer and Anvil book and the Red and Black audio drama.


----------



## Creon

We should know day after tomorrow, so it's all good. It's a fairly expert fake, if so. I don't mind a pad only update with Warlord traits and perhaps a point drop. That's what I hope for, at least.


----------



## Stella Cadente

Magpie_Oz said:


> Change the record mate.


What record?, allot of the artwork in books now has already been seen, if you don't like it, well tough fucking shit I'm afraid, because I certainly noticed, and so did most of the people who brought them, its always been the same way, hell I remember shaking my head at the BA and SW codex for having a couple of smurf pics and they shopped new symbols on.


----------



## Zion

I'm excited and hopeful. Only a few more days to see if it's real!


----------



## Necrosis

Magpie_Oz said:


> You're completely kidding aren't you?
> 
> Say what you like about GW but when in that latest round of releases did they release something that was just cobbled together pre-existing art works ?


Do you know how often GW recycles art work? All the time. 

Also the artwork was orginally created for Black Industries (which was part of GW).


----------



## Troublehalf

Hey guys.... Look what I found (if it hasn't been posted already):


----------



## Stella Cadente

Necrosis said:


> Do you know how often GW recycles art work? All the time.


No no, your not allowed to say that, ALL GW art is original, always, no exceptions, ever, to say otherwise is blasphemous it seems


----------



## Shandathe

If you don't believe GW would recycle artwork easily, try and figure out how often they've reused most of the artwork in Witch Hunters. It's a lot. The Sister on page 19 appears to be a special favorite.

The only thing that might stop them is that it's an FFG picture... FFG has created more new Sister artwork for Dark Heresy alone than GW has in the past dozen years.


----------



## rasolyo

Thank you GW. I was afraid I was going another two years without another half-assed attempt at an SoB codex.

So, now that the goal posts have been moved again: 7th Ed/tail of 6th Ed release?


----------



## Shandathe

Assuming that's real? 7th. Probably middle 7th, even. I don't see them doing even the little work this would be without pretending the Sisters of Battle are perfectly fine in the Codex department. It's been 2 years since the WDex came out, and it's likely to be at least that long still. 

We're going to beat the Blood Angels for longest non-Codex ever.


----------



## Zion

With reports of GW finally having the equipment capable of handling what they want to do with the Sisters model wise and Phil Kelly saying he's got ideas for the army at Enter the Citadel and GW being VERY aware of there being an interest I doubt "7th Edition" will be when they get their next real codex. That seems a bit too unlikely with the things that are finally stacking in the Sisters' favor.


----------



## Stella Cadente

rasolyo said:


> Thank you GW. I was afraid I was going another two years without another half-assed attempt at an SoB codex.
> 
> So, now that the goal posts have been moved again: 7th Ed/tail of 6th Ed release?


Nah, late 8th, they'll do a codex not compatible with 9th and only release 37.8% of the models that you need


----------



## SilverTabby

Tawa said:


> There's the money shot.
> 
> 
> Also, the blurb states that this is the first time a sisters codex has been a stand alone product.
> I beg to differ.


No, it's not saying this is the first time A sisters codex is stand alone, it's saying THIS ccodex is available as a stand alone for the first time. 

And have any of the online codeces had previously unused pics as their covers? They wouldn't commission a new piece of art when a perfectly good, relatively unseen one is available for what is effectively a release to shut us up.


----------



## Creon

Confirmed as Real. Saw a copy of White Dwarf with the leaked photograph inside it. Blood angles ecopy too.


----------



## Ddraig Cymry




----------



## Bindi Baji

Stella Cadente said:


> Nah, they'll do a codex and release the models that you need


:wink:


----------



## Zion

Well it's real: http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/09/sisters-of-battle.html


----------



## Ddraig Cymry

I really like the Sisters Of Battle. Their whole idea, the look, lore, everything, is fantastic to me. I hope they give them updated models as well. This is definitely a step in the right direction.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Yep I stand corrected. Sitting in my local GW with the White Dwarf in my hand. Good to see the Sisters are back on the block.


----------



## Shandathe

I'm just hoping it's not the chopping block. 

Again.

This just means the light at the end of the tunnel hasn't been switched off as a cost-cutting measure. It has yet to be confirmed it's not an incoming train.


----------



## Suijin

So when does the WD say the digital edition is going to be released?


----------



## Zion

Suijin said:


> So when does the WD say the digital edition is going to be released?


Not yet. Maybe next week as the BA book and the Sisters one haven't hit iTunes yet.

And I don't think this is a sign of the Sisters getting put on the chopping block but rather a sign that GW is actually trying to do something with them again.

I think we'll know more here in a week or so.


----------



## Mokuren

Zion said:


> Not yet. Maybe next week as the BA book and the Sisters one haven't hit iTunes yet.
> 
> And I don't think this is a sign of the Sisters getting put on the chopping block but rather a sign that GW is actually trying to do something with them again.
> 
> I think we'll know more here in a week or so.


This kind of throws a spanner in my plans: I was going to buy up some imperial guard to use as allies (or to use as main with sister allies), but now that we're getting a digital codex and the rumours of being shoved into an "Inquisition" codex that also features Grey Knights and will most likely use their ally chart means I'm not so sure of that any more.

Still, I'd be very glad if "Inquisition" gets all shoved in one place for simplicity and variety's sake, and hope the new codex will feature some tweaking even if I know there's no new models coming. Now I'll have to wait instead of investing.

... Of course the new Dark Elves have come out and I was just thinking what to do with those I had bought 14 years ago and have been sitting on my shelf all the time...


----------



## Troublehalf

I can see it now.

Exorcists are now 275 points each.
Seraphims are now 30 points each with 20 point weapon upgrades
Sisters of Repentia lose Fleet, Lose 6++ and lose 1 WS.
Battle Sisters go up 10 points and can only buy 15 point Flamers.

Or something as ridiculous. The don't care about SoB. It's too expensive to make the models right, not enough people will buy them, they have warehouses full of pewter models, unsold. 

Yes. This is me being pessimistic, but I have on other choice.


----------



## Shandathe

I'm sure they'll leave the poor Repentia alone. They're useless enough as it is. Celestine on the other hand... I echo your pessimism. Except I don't think they'll really have changed ANYTHING other than adding in the Warlord traits and 6th edition stuff (ie. Hull Points) the blurb promises.

Of course, all of this doesn't address the actual problem - we need plastic Sisters in *squad boxes*, and some new toys like ANYTHING with SkyFire that's not a quadgun - at all.

Given that the Toughest Girls kickstarter collected near 700k in a month, there's obviously a market for sci-fi females. Even in the current situation, the Sisters have maintained a following. If done right, the Sisters of Battle would probably be GWs 2nd or 3rd best selling army.


----------



## Suijin

Frankly if you expect really anything besides a reprint of the WD with errata and FAQ changes then you are setting yourself up for disappointment. Now if it actually happens, by some miracle of the Emperor, that they get something more then you can be happy after seeing it happen.


----------



## Zion

Troublehalf said:


> The don't care about SoB.


Phil Kelly was quoted as having ideas for the army about a month ago, and that there are people on the Dev team who play the army. We've seen Matt Ward can actually write Sisters decently if he's writing their fluff and Cruddace collects them.

Who doesn't care about them again?



Troublehalf said:


> It's too expensive to make the models right, not enough people will buy them, they have warehouses full of pewter models, unsold.


Enter the Citadel it was said _on record_ that Sister hadn't gotten plastics due to a lack of equipment that was good enough to handle what they're trying to do with them. They also said that problem has been fixed.

Furthermore, by GW's own financial sheets the molding equipment depreciates completely every 4 years, so they look at replacing it for better equipment about that time. We saw this last years when they bout new equipment that let them get even more detailed and showed it off as part of the Hobbit stuff.

Dark Eldar, Necrons and Grey Knights didn't really sell before their reboots either.

Oh and GW hasn't been keeping a high stock of Sisters models for a while now or they wouldn't keep running out of stock every so often. Instead they do small batches of them as needed.



Suijin said:


> Frankly if you expect really anything besides a reprint of the WD with errata and FAQ changes then you are setting yourself up for disappointment. Now if it actually happens, by some miracle of the Emperor, that they get something more then you can be happy after seeing it happen.


The blurb about it says "...includes all the background, photography and rules (all updated for Warhammer 40,000 6th edition, including Warlord traits)...". From that we can infer that it *will* the following:



Hull Points
Warlord Traits
Relics (at least on the SCs)
Errata Changes from FAQs
Rules changed to now be the USRs
Seraphim losing their shooting rule as it's covered by Gunslinger
New pictures (since most of the existing ones date back to 2nd Edition and the terrain of the time)

What we don't know if it will have:


The old background worked back in (a lot was left out)
Points adjustments
Generic Relics
More wargear
More options
Ect
We've got evidence that they're giving us something and they didn't just give us a poorly converted PDF and ask for our money. Let's _at least_ wait until the preview hits online (assuming the full release doesn't go live at the same time) and see if anything is different before we start pissing and moaning already. FFS show some dignity and at least wait for the actual digital codex to drop before we start passing judgment on it.

And people wonder why everyone sees Sisters players as a bunch of whiny gits. Yeesh. Quit making us all look bad already.

EDIT: 


Mokuren said:


> This kind of throws a spanner in my plans: I was going to buy up some imperial guard to use as allies (or to use as main with sister allies), but now that we're getting a digital codex and the rumours of being shoved into an "Inquisition" codex that also features Grey Knights and will most likely use their ally chart means I'm not so sure of that any more.
> 
> Still, I'd be very glad if "Inquisition" gets all shoved in one place for simplicity and variety's sake, and hope the new codex will feature some tweaking even if I know there's no new models coming. Now I'll have to wait instead of investing.


Inquisition rumor was debunked a long while ago, and it never made sense anyways. The book would be a bloated and disjointed mess.

That doesn't rule out a return of the Ordos Hereticus to the army though as we may see them reintroduced in this digital codex, depending on who wrote it and all.


----------



## Zion

From DakkaDakka:



> Spoke to Cruddence @ Games Day re SoB asking if the digital version is his WD dex. He confirmed it is, hes been involved in the writing of the warlord traits was the impression I got. He also told me they'velooked at the scaling issue for faith points and that there's been 'minor' point tweaks. Release date is for next month (October). Interestingly he said it'll probably be treat like a supplement in that if it sells well as a digital it's probably get a physical release. Spoke to someone from the digital editions stand and they confirmed it'll be for Android aswell as Ipad.


So some point tweaks are in.


----------



## Creon

That actually sounds good. I am thinking that we're getting a streamlined and updated WD 'dex, adjusted to current standards. I am cautiously hopeful.


----------



## SilverTabby

*pleased*

Now all I have to do is fork out for some kind of equipment that will actually read a digital version of a codex, that isn't my phone. *sadface*


----------



## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> *pleased*
> 
> Now all I have to do is fork out for some kind of equipment that will actually read a digital version of a codex, that isn't my phone. *sadface*


My understanding is that there are free readers online that can open .epub files, which seem to be the ones Black Library uses, so you should be able to use one of those on your computer.


----------



## SilverTabby

Zion said:


> My understanding is that there are free readers online that can open .epub files, which seem to be the ones Black Library uses, so you should be able to use one of those on your computer.


I can't really carry my desktop to games though. Hmmmm. Quandry.


----------



## Creon

Buy a Kindle. You'll enjoy it. And it's easy to take to games.


----------



## Chaplain-Grimaldus

Creon said:


> Buy a Kindle. You'll enjoy it. And it's easy to take to games.


On that note have you got any of the kindle codex? I'm undecided as to getting one.

I have the kindle paper white.


----------



## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> I can't really carry my desktop to games though. Hmmmm. Quandry.


I was thinking you could print it, but I'm not 100% that'd work now that I think about it.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

SilverTabby said:


> *pleased*
> 
> Now all I have to do is fork out for some kind of equipment that will actually read a digital version of a codex, that isn't my phone. *sadface*


Aldkio is an ePub reader and it is the best I have found for the GW products. Some of the others give a bit of a weird result.

I have the rulebook on my phone (Samsung Galaxy) and it works "ok", a larger screen would be better. 

I also have them on a Kobo Vox which was actually cheaper than the phone and has a much larger screen. It does chew the power tho' but usually lasts a day of gaming.

The licence agreement does allow you to print a single copy. My plan is to take it to a pro print house and get a good quality print out for everyday use so I can keep the books in good condition. This still works out cheaper than getting the books from GW


----------



## Tawa

Eeh, digital. 

Guess waiting a bit longer for something in print won't hurt me


----------



## Zion

Tawa said:


> Eeh, digital.
> 
> Guess waiting a bit longer for something in print won't hurt me


If it doesn't sell well enough though it won't see print.


----------



## Tawa

Zion said:


> If it doesn't sell well enough though it won't see print.


That is, as ever, a distinct possibility


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Tawa said:


> That is, as ever, a distinct possibility


And it will be YOUR fault, just you think about that Mr "I'll wait for the print version"


----------



## Tawa

Magpie_Oz said:


> And it will be YOUR fault, just you think about that Mr "I'll wait for the print version"


I.... :cray:


----------



## SSG.House

I enjoy pen and paper, but having things on digits is a good idea.
You can always put them on a CD and save them, or email them to yourself incase something gets borked and you have to reformat. 

I feel the intial launch will be digital and eventually in the traditinal sense. Today tablets, ipads, mini laptops, smart phones are just about everywhere, Im gathering an ebook collection as well, for travel
on my tablet...its easier to bring my Gal Tab 7.7, then a stack of books. Plus you can highlight, bookmark and use a search function to find a certain passage versus highlighting and marring up a book.

Also if you have lookout you can sync files so if you lose, break or brick the phone/tablet you just re download lookout, log in and it will do all the work for you. Not to mention i know for a fact you can sync contacts, and pics to Gmail, not sure about larger files like an ebook though


----------



## Zion

Magpie_Oz said:


> And it will be YOUR fault, just you think about that Mr "I'll wait for the print version"


I was thinking less Tawa specifically and everyone who is thinking the same thing actually.


----------



## Mokuren

Zion said:


> I was thinking less Tawa specifically and everyone who is thinking the same thing actually.


I'm sorry, I don't care if you can scientifically and without doubt prove that Sisters don't get a paper version solely because I didn't buy the digital version, but to me it's simply a matter of cost.

It's already outrageous to pay codexes for what they cost, it's already outrageous to pay the rulebook for what it costs, it's already outrageous that the initial costs for an already very expensive hobby is set that ludicrously high when the model count is still zero, I'm not going to spend an amount of money that would buy me several actual, physical books for a slightly fancy .pdf in a format that is however a lot less compatible with everything for no good reason.

I can only afford to buy a few models per year and had the bad luck to pick the worst-supported and most expensive army in the game, I'm not giving that up to buy a digital release unless it's reasonably priced for an actual digital release, and not a full-colour hardback print.


----------



## dragonkingofthestars

Mokuren said:


> stump speech (meant in a good way)


Hear hear!


----------



## Zion

Mokuren said:


> I'm sorry, I don't care if you can scientifically and without doubt prove that Sisters don't get a paper version solely because I didn't buy the digital version, but to me it's simply a matter of cost.
> 
> It's already outrageous to pay codexes for what they cost, it's already outrageous to pay the rulebook for what it costs, it's already outrageous that the initial costs for an already very expensive hobby is set that ludicrously high when the model count is still zero, I'm not going to spend an amount of money that would buy me several actual, physical books for a slightly fancy .pdf in a format that is however a lot less compatible with everything for no good reason.
> 
> I can only afford to buy a few models per year and had the bad luck to pick the worst-supported and most expensive army in the game, I'm not giving that up to buy a digital release unless it's reasonably priced for an actual digital release, and not a full-colour hardback print.


Slow the train there! I'm not throwing blame on anyone for anything.

I was just pointing out that the possible existance of a future hardcopy is linked to sales of the digital one and if the digital one doesn't sell well because a signifigant number of people Wait for the paper one then it'll never come.

I too am on a tight budget right now thanks to being an unemployed student, so I feel the pain so don't go chucking stones at me like it's my fault. I'm just pointing out the problem if too many of us skip the digital and wait for the paper copy.


----------



## Jacobite

While I get your point Z GW's possible linking the possibility of a hard copy to the sales of an e-copy is a retarded move on their part. A hard copy will always sell more (and disproportionally so) compared to a e-copy.


----------



## Zion

Jacobite said:


> While I get your point Z GW's possible linking the possibility of a hard copy to the sales of an e-copy is a retarded move on their part. A hard copy will always sell more (and disproportionally so) compared to a e-copy.


Oh I agree, and was never arguing that fact. I just didn't want people getting to caught up in a paper copy that may never come. ):


----------



## Shandathe

I'm still half hoping they'll do the decent thing and release it for free like they did with Daemon- and Witchhunters when they had been out of print for like a year. It's not much hope, but with the WD dex being 2 years out of stores the situation seems similar to me. 

Especially the part where I still would really, really like to kick someone at GW in the nuts for STILL not solving the actual PROBLEM.

On a more useful note, here's a Firefox ePub add-on


----------



## Zion

This isn't a direct copy of that WD though, it's a tweaked WD (warlord traits, points, faith system, maybe relics) so I'm not expecting any freebies on this one.

That said if they do charge for it, I'm hoping it's under $10.


----------



## Necrosis

How much does gw charge for digital codexes and supplements?


----------



## Zion

Necrosis said:


> How much does gw charge for digital codexes and supplements?


In the US the iPad ones cost the same as the codex they're a copy of and the epub ones are $10 cheaper. 

Not that it really helps us here on this one.


----------



## Magpie_Oz

Jacobite said:


> While I get your point Z GW's possible linking the possibility of a hard copy to the sales of an e-copy is a retarded move on their part. A hard copy will always sell more (and disproportionally so) compared to a e-copy.


True enough but I really get the feeling that the Sisters digidex is a testing of the waters. If there is a particularly poor response to it I can see it affecting when the Sisters full update gets released but I'm not sure it would totally condemn them


----------



## Chaplain-Grimaldus

Well I'm not a sisters player but I will get it anyway out of interest and the possibility that what you have said Is the case.

They are an integral part of the 40k background, I would hate to see them go!


----------



## Bindi Baji

GW has been looking at ways of adding the number of female painters/collectors/gamers (just look at the high frequency of female gamers and staff pictured in WD in the past year or two - it's increasing), there has been a lot of feedback doing the rounds about female gamers asking about SOB over the last few years, however SOB have to be done very well and not comically in any way for them to be viable.
(i'm not stating this is a major reason - just one good reason)

GW are very aware of the potential interest in SOB from older collectors and new potential gamers/collectors, were I not aware that SOB are already being worked on I would still be reasonably optimistic.

While a digital 'dex is hardly amazing it does prove that SOB have not at least been forgotten........


----------



## Chaplain-Grimaldus

But isn't that making a large sexist assumption that female gamers want a female army? Why can't chicks be into Orks or Nids? Why can't a bloke favour an army of über fanatical kick ass space nuns?


----------



## Bindi Baji

Chaplain-Grimaldus said:


> But isn't that making a large sexist assumption that female gamers want a female army?


I never said all female gamers want a female army, my missus has a fantasy Goblin & Goblin army (nope, that is what I meant) she is fascinated by SOB but probably would never collect them whereas her sister is patiently waiting for SOB, from shops and events I do hear a lot of girls saying they are only playing (or more likely just painting and collecting) Chaos 40k, O&G,whatever because their boyfriend/friend/member of staff say it wasn't worth starting SOB until they have been redone.

A lot of female gamers and girlfriends who will happily do some painting as their other halves do so will generally ask about Dark Eldar and SOB as they tend to seem interesting (as well as High Elf Lion chariots).

SOB are never going to be the biggest sellers but they do have a hardcore following and there is an awful lot of interest in them (male and female) and if there is a chance that an army will pull in new buyers from a potential market then GW will likely try to profit from this as they did somewhat with Dark Eldar.


This is all (almost all) just an opinion from what I have seen and heard


----------



## SilverTabby

Chaplain-Grimaldus said:


> But isn't that making a large sexist assumption that female gamers want a female army? Why can't chicks be into Orks or Nids? Why can't a bloke favour an army of über fanatical kick ass space nuns?


I collect Sisters, and have a Necromundan Escher contingent of guard to allie with them. I will freely admit I like the idea of an all female army, and prefer painting the female figure to the male one. That's an artistic preference over anything else though.

However my first loves were Skaven and Nids. I have a thing for teeth and claws  I'm not your usual 'girly' girl...


----------



## Mokuren

Zion said:


> Slow the train there! I'm not throwing blame on anyone for anything.


I'm sorry, I'm just overly pissed at GW's pricing conventions when it comes to digital stuff, and I'm pessimist on the possibility of the update coming for free, and probably I'm also a little bit ashamed of being excited for something that is a digital update to a WDdex that was rushed and basically chopped the previous actual codex's options in half while increasing costs all over the board.

When you put it like that it doesn't sound like much of an accomplishment, but considering the main problem, i.e. the fact we still have models as old as the old Dark Elves', is still unsolved I guess my standards have been lowered to a point where this is somehow great news.

And it is- in perspective.

Well, I'll hold on judgement on the digital codex and its price as soon as we know both.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Will this just be the codex though, no new models?


----------



## Jacobite

Just a ecodex no new minis. Kind of like the way they are doing supplements (except without the hardcopy in 4 months time).


----------



## Creon

Or maybe with. We don't know we won't get the HC in four months.


----------



## Jacobite

GW tends to tell you if a hard copy will follow the e-book, they may not say when but they do tend to something like "A hard copy will be available later in the year).


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Was considering doing either Eldar or Sisters of battle for next years armies on parade, with the idea the SoB would be outside one of the terrain pieces you can get from GW but was worried they were going to be written off, may have to rethink about them after hearing they are getting a codex.


----------



## Chaplain-Grimaldus

I too may do a teeny allied sisters force ( just 2-3 units) and add them to my Asrartes forces (Blood angles, Dark angels and Blades of Dorn.... All Wip lol)

Looks like the digital release will breath some breath into sisters.


----------



## Creon

A "Small" sisters force can be the size of a normal Astartes Force Sometimes. I'm finishing up my 2k pure Sisters list, already had great success with Sisters/Raven Guard list


----------



## Chaplain-Grimaldus

True,I'm talking a battle squad, seraphim , heavy weapons squad (retributors?) and a HQ


----------



## Ddraig Cymry

I'd like to paint a squad of Sisters sometime. I love the Gothic look their armor has, wish they were in at least Finecast though


----------



## DeSteele

Chaplain-Grimaldus said:


> True,I'm talking a battle squad, seraphim , heavy weapons squad (retributors?) and a HQ


 If you are taking Seraphim, pair them up with St Celestine. She will give the Seraphim a much better initiative for their Hit and Run test and they will also pass on their Hit & Run to her.

With the battle squad I tend to go with flamers. Break open a transport vehicle with somebody else and then flame the dismounted squad. With the improved overwatch from multiple flamers you might then survive the charge from the remaining enemy


----------



## Zion

Looks like it drops this weekend, or the website guys pushed the button to make the change too soon:


----------



## revilo44

nice find zion, was this paint set on the gw website before?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1190001a&prodId=prod2260022a


----------



## Wookiepelt

The entire "Army Essentials" section is new. In the past the very first item on the navigation bar was "HQ".


----------



## Zion

revilo44 said:


> nice find zion, was this paint set on the gw website before?
> 
> http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1190001a&prodId=prod2260022a


I don't know since I never browsed the paint sets. So it's new to me at least.


----------



## cragnes417

i notice that this morning too did they get rid of the bigger squad selection? >.>


----------



## Chaplain-Grimaldus

There hasn't been a whole battle sister squad available for a while now.


----------



## dragonkingofthestars

you know the feeling? when you see a big storm coming toward you and you tense up?

that's what I'm getting. Something tells me something is going to happen.

For context: How long did it take for the Necrons and Dark Eldar to get there update after being long out of date?


----------



## Zion

http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/10...tal-codex.html Everything we know so far rolled up into a little package. Also a confirmation of what's in the book by GW Digital Editions.


----------



## Tawa

"Digital exclusive".....?


----------



## Creon

Yes, it looks like it's not going to be a Codex ever. But the changes and updates give me hope they're working on it, and are trying to keep interest from lagging.


----------



## Mokuren

Well it's certainly better than being forced to play with an out of print WDdex and proof they aren't being squatted yet. All that's left to see is what kind of update they can provide without adding new models whatsoever or remaking existing ones (most of which are 20 years old by now).

I mean, I'm as excited as anyone else, but I'm not going to get my panties in a twist for a "digital exclusive".


----------



## WallWeasels

Codex confirmed for better cover than actual contents


----------



## Zion

Tawa said:


> "Digital exclusive".....?


Digital, MAYBE print later if this sells. This isn't a full codex, this is an update to the WD we have.


----------



## revilo44

via The Black Library- Games Workshop Digital Editions
CODEX: ADEPTA SORORITAS
Sentinels of Terra isn’t the only new Digital title on its way later this month. From the 19th October, Codex: Adepta Sororitas will be released as the first digital exclusive codex. 


Also via The Black Library- Games Workshop Digital Editions
Sentinels of Terra focuses on the 3rd Company of the Imperial Fists. The extensive background section of the supplement includes new artwork and background on the 3Rd Company, and focuses particularly on the legendary events of the Crusade of Thunder. There are also new rules to use with your Imperial Fists collection, including new Warlords Traits, Company Relics, army wide rules, Apocalypse formations, Plantestrike and Cities of Death stratagems and eight new missions to play. 


Sentinels of Terra will be released on the 26th of October, both as an interactive edition for your iPad, and as an eBook Edition for Android, Kindle and iBooks. You’ll be able to pre-order your copy from the 19th of October. 

There is more information on the GW Digital Editions site as well, not to mention the wall papers.... So get going!


----------



## cragnes417

Are they also doing it by book as well ? I saw the cover of it....


----------



## Wookiepelt

Here's the cover of Adepta Sororitas as released by GW Digital Editions...


----------



## Chaplain-Grimaldus

They have cranked up the femininity a notch I think!! And the win, fire and Pwn!!

Defiantly convinced me to do the small sisters allies I was thinking of.


----------



## revilo44

Dam girl (pun intended) that is one fine front cover. I really can't wait to get this.any idea how much it costs?


----------



## Necrosis

Here is another version which I found funny:


----------



## Tawa

Zion said:


> This isn't a full codex, this is an update to the WD we have.


Ah well, I already have the WD 'dex 



Wookiepelt said:


> Here's the cover of Adepta Sororitas as released by GW Digital Editions...


I may be a little bit hard...... :blush:


----------



## The Sturk

What I hope for is that some plastic models come out along with this release.


----------



## Zion

Tawa said:


> Ah well, I already have the WD 'dex


Then you still need it, because this isn't a carbon copy of that. 



The Sturk said:


> What I hope for is that some plastic models come out along with this release.


 Sorry, but that might be asking to much for a digitalmnly release coming out the same month as a full army release.


----------



## dragonkingofthestars

is it possible they might do what privateer press does and release new units in the codex without producing the models for them? (yet)


----------



## Bindi Baji

dragonkingofthestars said:


> is it possible they might do what privateer press does and release new units in the codex without producing the models for them? (yet)


GW has been moving away from this for the last several years so it is at best; highly improbable


----------



## Mokuren

Bindi Baji said:


> GW has been moving away from this for the last several years so it is at best; highly improbable


Especially because, after the Chapterhouse incident, I believe they're never going to do that again since if they do, everyone and their dog will jump on the bandwagon and release not!Sisters of Battle to fill the gap that GW left, which means that when they will ever get around to actually release some new SoB models after 20 years, they'll have to compete with other miniature manufacturers for their own IP.

I'm pretty sure they learned their lesson already, and you know how paranoid the GW legal team is.


----------



## Jacobite

Untitled cover image for those who like it:

http://depingo.deviantart.com/art/Codex-Adepta-Sororitas-405257833


----------



## Tawa

Zion said:


> Then you still need it, because this isn't a carbon copy of that.


However, I don't have a dataslate etc to read it on 



Jacobite said:


> Untitled cover image for those who like it:
> 
> http://depingo.deviantart.com/art/Codex-Adepta-Sororitas-405257833


*faps*


----------



## Zion

You can get the ePub version from the Black Library and a free reader and open it on your computer you dork.


----------



## Tawa

Zion said:


> You can get the ePub version from the Black Library and a free reader and open it on your computer you dork.


Snazzy :so_happy:


----------



## crooner

So call me silly for asking, but does anyone know what the alter of war is?


----------



## Zion

crooner said:


> So call me silly for asking, but does anyone know what the alter of war is?


Altar of War are the digital only released special missions for a specific army. They're basically variant missions dug up from editions of yore, dusted off and given a new breath, or a a new one thrown together by the studio.

They're usually pretty story driven too.


----------



## crooner

Zion said:


> Altar of War are the digital only released special missions for a specific army. They're basically variant missions dug up from editions of yore, dusted off and given a new breath, or a a new one thrown together by the studio.
> 
> They're usually pretty story driven too.



That's a load of fun! Thank you!


----------



## DeSteele

Jacobite said:


> Untitled cover image for those who like it:
> 
> http://depingo.deviantart.com/art/Codex-Adepta-Sororitas-405257833


Nice, can see so much more ...
like a mutant tied to the cart wheel been burnt alive. 
So WH40k is grimdark they say?


----------



## Shandathe

It's only dark if you're unwilling to use fire. 

Lots and lots of fire. :biggrin:


----------



## Wookiepelt

... just posted the Adapta Sororitas Warlord Traits!!!


----------



## Chaplain-Grimaldus

Nice.. If they had the rules the trait granted it would be better lol!!


----------



## iamtheeviltwin

Chaplain-Grimaldus said:


> Nice.. If they had the rules the trait granted it would be better lol!!


Got to leave some reason to buy the ecodex :biggrin:


----------



## Zion

Apoc Formations are a go.


----------



## dragonkingofthestars

so if we have basically confirmed a name change, will we have to alter the name of the Sisters of battle forum to Adeptus Sororitis?


----------



## Zion

dragonkingofthestars said:


> so if we have basically confirmed a name change, will we have to alter the name of the Sisters of battle forum to Adeptus Sororitis?


I'd post that for Jez to see in the feeback and suggestions subforum instead of here. News and Rumors doesn't govern site layout.


----------



## Suijin

Zion said:


> Apoc Formations are a go.


That's kind of like the diamond merchants in the mall with the perpetual 50% off sale. Just because they screwed us by not giving us any Apoc formations in the Apoc book it is supposed to be some form of extra special love to finally get them with the codex (which is still a half codex updated from a WD codex).

I don't really care, but there is the line "the Adepta Sororitas codex does contain loads of features that even newer codexes don't", that makes it seem like they are giving Adepta Sororitas something that others don't already have (which isn't the case).


----------



## Zion

Other armies who are getting updated aren't getting Apoc rules or Altar of War missions in their codexes though, those are things you have to purchase separately as part of "Warzones" or other digital releases, so they aren't lying when they say the book includes stuff you don't normally get in a codex.

Sisters weren't in the Apoc book because they had no codex in print. It'd be damned foolish of GW to give them rules and push them and not have the rules available.

And yes, I know it was damned foolish that they let the rules go out of print in the first place, but at least they seem to be doing something positive with the army again.

I'm willing to accept the baby steps their making towards updating Sisters because I believe we're finally on the path to actually seeing it happen.


----------



## revilo44

Guys dont know if you lot know but the Immolator is now gone from the dedicated transport section of the Games Workshop site. Is this for some reboxing? or for some other reason that will be discovered in the new digital release of the codex?


----------



## dragonkingofthestars

revilo44 said:


> Guys dont know if you lot know but the Immolator is now gone from the dedicated transport section of the Games Workshop site. Is this for some reboxing? or for some other reason that will be discovered in the new digital release of the codex?


well, i can think of only two reasons.

one: if its gone and not moved that would say it's acting like a land raider, buy in heavy support can carry stuff.

secondly, and this is the first thing that comes to my mind, they might have a new set in the wings that's coming out.

'but that is just me throwing darts at the board


----------



## Me-dea

Or, since sisters are cast on demand, the Immolator kit is sold out and waiting for new batch.


----------



## andrewm9

The Immolator is back on the website, so no need to panic. It was probably a goof by the web guys. On that note they probably need to get better web guys as that sort of thing happens a lot.


----------



## Tawa

andrewm9 said:


> The Immolator is back on the website, so no need to panic. It was probably a goof by the web guys. On that note they probably need to get better web guys as that sort of thing happens a lot.


"Um, boss?"
"What's the matter webguy?"
"Derp. I deleted the interwebs......"


----------



## Wookiepelt

Tawa said:


> "Um, boss?"
> "What's the matter webguy?"
> "Derp. I deleted the interwebs......"


boss to webguy: Gibbs-slap! unish:


----------



## locustgate

Sooo is the codex rumored as life support (just new rules and stats)
or 
Defibrillator (new rules and some models)

P.S. Please god let there at least be the standard unit in plastic.


----------



## SilverTabby

Don't hold your breath for any new models. Best we'll likely get is finecast rather than metal.


----------



## revilo44

SilverTabby said:


> Don't hold your breath for any new models. Best we'll likely get is finecast rather than metal.


I would buy some sisters and a Canoness if that were case. At least then they would be better then metal.


----------



## Zion

I'd love Finecast Penitent Engines and Exorcists!


----------



## Loli

Yeah I expect new models or plastics, but finecast of some of the current range would be nice I've got two penitent engines, love the model but I don't use them because they are metal so when ever I take them to use them they always fall apart and are a pain to reglue.


----------



## Necrosis

Here is a sneak peek: http://www.blacklibrary.com/Blog/Codex:_Adepta_Sororitas.html

Anyone notice that the codex is over 100 pages long and sister of battles can now be taken in squads of 5.


----------



## tirnaog

WOW 
Like this a lot now. Wish I had a iPad.
Guess I will be pre-ordering the eBook version.


----------



## iamtheeviltwin

Necrosis said:


> Here is a sneak peek: http://www.blacklibrary.com/Blog/Codex:_Adepta_Sororitas.html
> 
> Anyone notice that the codex is over 100 pages long and sister of battles can now be taken in squads of 5.


Was just getting ready to link to that...it will be interesting to see what else they do with the codex.


----------



## Suijin

Damn, who is going to pay +10 points for +1 LD, +1 A??? So you are paying 12+10 = 22 points for that one model.


----------



## dragonkingofthestars

is it just me? or does she look like a psyker?


----------



## Tawa

This just gave me a massive chubby.......


----------



## SilverTabby

The original Sisters Codex wasn't that big! Interesting... 

Though the WD one was still 15pages when I made it into a PDF, and that was cutting out the fluff and gumph. Add in backstory, more pictures, a few missions and formations... Yeah, I can see it getting quite big. But not *that* big...


----------



## Zion

dragonkingofthestars said:


> is it just me? or does she look like a psyker?


That's Ephrael "Motherfucking" Stern, one of the most badass people to walk the Imperium.


----------



## SilverTabby

dragonkingofthestars said:


> is it just me? or does she look like a psyker?


Have you not read Daemonifuge? That's Ephrael Stern.


Edit: dammit, ninja'ed


----------



## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> The original Sisters Codex wasn't that big! Interesting...
> 
> Though the WD one was still 15pages when I made it into a PDF, and that was cutting out the fluff and gumph. Add in backstory, more pictures, a few missions and formations... Yeah, I can see it getting quite big. But not *that* big...


2 iPad pages is roughly 1 normal sized page. So we have over 50 pages of stuff. 

That's at least 20 more than what we had before.


----------



## Shandathe

Suijin said:


> Damn, who is going to pay +10 points for +1 LD, +1 A??? So you are paying 12+10 = 22 points for that one model.


I strongly suspect that, much like in Witch Hunters, the VSS also comes with a Faith Point or whatever will be needed to activate Acts of Faith in this Codex, so that things scale properly with the army again. Emperor (and GW) knows that a straight 1d6 no matter how many points you had on the table rarely seemed the right amount. 

Note she already came with a slight surcharge in the WDex - a basic squad of 10 Battle Sisters costs 125 points there ( 10 * 12 leaves 5 points unaccounted for, which is the higher Ld). A 5 point adjustment doesn't seem THAT bad, especially if my suspicion above comes true.

Note the other adjustment as well... at 10 points, a Simulacrum actually starts looking interesting - admittedly depending on what it DOES in this Codex, but still!


----------



## Shandathe

As for the Purge Squadron... That was in WD 384 before. I'm wondering if we'll actually get a new Formation or if this is just re-establishing the few ones that existed before the new Apocalypse came along. It does seem like it'd be a place where they could really add something new, though still made up of existing stuff.


----------



## Shandathe

Zion said:


> I'd love Finecast Penitent Engines and Exorcists!


I'm convinced they made at least one Penitent Engine in Finecast. Check the White Dwarf Codex - one of the Penitent Engines in the pictures is balanced on one leg. I'm 90% sure that model is too top-heavy in metal for that pose to be possible, and there's some added slight conversions (like the bend 'toes' on the lifted leg) that at least suggest it was easier to modify than the metal one is.


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> I'm convinced they made at least one Penitent Engine in Finecast. Check the White Dwarf Codex - one of the Penitent Engines in the pictures is balanced on one leg. I'm 90% sure that model is too top-heavy in metal for that pose to be possible, and there's some added slight conversions (like the bend 'toes' on the lifted leg) that at least suggest it was easier to modify than the metal one is.


Or it's a resin cast of the master (they do that so they don't damage the master when making a mold out of it).


----------



## Suijin

Shandathe said:


> I strongly suspect that, much like in Witch Hunters, the VSS also comes with a Faith Point or whatever will be needed to activate Acts of Faith in this Codex, so that things scale properly with the army again. Emperor (and GW) knows that a straight 1d6 no matter how many points you had on the table rarely seemed the right amount.
> 
> Note she already came with a slight surcharge in the WDex - a basic squad of 10 Battle Sisters costs 125 points there ( 10 * 12 leaves 5 points unaccounted for, which is the higher Ld). A 5 point adjustment doesn't seem THAT bad, especially if my suspicion above comes true.
> 
> Note the other adjustment as well... at 10 points, a Simulacrum actually starts looking interesting - admittedly depending on what it DOES in this Codex, but still!


We shall about the faith point thing, but even if it is true then faith powers better be more powerful than chapter tactics for SM who get them free compared to Adepta Sororitas in the case you stated. SM can also use the chapter tactics as many times as called for with 100% chance to actually use them. The previous listed faith powers were about the same power as chapter tactics, but could only be used 1D6 times per turn as an army, only on your turn, and with only about a 50% chance of success to get to use it.

So it may just kill me waiting for the codex to see what is in it.


----------



## SilverTabby

Shandathe said:


> I'm convinced they made at least one Penitent Engine in Finecast. Check the White Dwarf Codex - one of the Penitent Engines in the pictures is balanced on one leg. I'm 90% sure that model is too top-heavy in metal for that pose to be possible, and there's some added slight conversions (like the bend 'toes' on the lifted leg) that at least suggest it was easier to modify than the metal one is.


I was on 'Eavy Metal at the time of the Penitent Engine's release. Seb converted that one, and whilst a lot of it was metal, some bits were resin castings. We did get resins of a lot of models in when either the production metal castings or plastics weren't in yet. 

The original Necron release - every necron in that was a resin cast, with the rods being done in green resin. The plastics weren't ready til almost the point of release, a month after we'd finished the colour section. 

I'm oddly pleased that even this far on, a lot of the models in the new Sisters 'dex will be my handiwork


----------



## Mokuren

I'm somewhat disappointed to see that Sisters are still 12 points a model, when they're worse than Chaos marines on all accounts and for just 1 less point. I guess the real divide will be the revamp of faith powers: I can still take 12 points per model if I get some actually useful faith powers in change, not 1d6 powers no matter the point level that only get off 50% of the time and only in my turn.

I'm also a little sad to see veteran superiors at 10 points, that's ridiculous, even if it's just "technically" a 5 points surcharge from the previous version, with the option to not get her at all if I'm not into that (unfortunately I'm into that, so I'll waste tens of points for nothing). On the other hand, I'm glad to see the simulacrum's cost halved, 20 points was pure, unadulterated bullshit.

And DEAR ME, FINALLY SOMEONE NOTICED THAT A MINIMUM SQUAD OF 10 WAS KIND OF STUPID.


----------



## Ryu_Niimura

Ah I see we reached the infamous turning point of bitching about not getting a codex at all and bitching about not liking what's in it:grin: I'm absolutely loving it and hoping for some plastic/resign models, if so I'm definetly starting a SoB army in the future!^^


----------



## Shandathe

What I really want to see is what they've done with the stuff that was (still) useless in the WDex. Notably Repentia and the Penitent Engine, both of which don't seem to fill any role but that of expensive ablative armour for the rest of the army. I've yet to see either actually ACHIEVE something beyond attracting enemy fire. 

... Other than one battle in 5th that had a Space Marine blow up a Rhino with Repentia in it with a close by Land Raider as his last action in his Shooting Phase - only to then realize *what that meant*. :biggrin:


----------



## locustgate

GOD DAMN YOU GW! Just when I said I'm not wasting anymore money this month you have to come out with this..please tell me it's not released until the end of the month.

P.S. Wait...really 15 additional Sisters for a total of 20? That seems a bit much. Sigh looks like I know what allied detachment I'm going to start with, if the sisters are in plastic/ cheap :laugh: finecast


----------



## andrewm9

locustgate said:


> GOD DAMN YOU GW! Just when I said I'm not wasting anymore money this month you have to come out with this..please tell me it's not released until the end of the month.
> 
> P.S. Wait...really 15 additional Sisters for a total of 20? That seems a bit much. Sigh looks like I know what allied detachment I'm going to start with, if the sisters are in plastic/ cheap :laugh: finecast


Battle Sisters could go up to 20 since the Witch Hunter codex, so that's nothing new.


----------



## Dagmire

As a long time (long suffering) SOB player I think that any attention the sisters get is good attention.


----------



## SilverTabby

In the WDdex both Repentia and Penitent Engines got a lot better than in C:WH. For one, Repentia could ride in tanks. And Engines could get double digits of attacks in combat... Plus Rage no longer meant they had to charge pellmell, but instead just got extra attacks 

Let's see what the whole thing does now. I'll be happy if the Canoness and retinue are worth taking...


----------



## Veteran Sergeant

Tawa said:


> "Um, boss?"
> "What's the matter webguy?"
> "Derp. I deleted the interwebs......"


It probably wasn't a goof. It's possible they were just revamping things and he found it mid update. Retail websites go through changes all the time, and items will appear and disappear. Perhaps it was given a new item number, or there was an auto-update to the product's ID or something. Or they've been making changes to the pages. Could have even been an inventory thing.

It's like everyone wants to be Sam Spade and find the first clue or something to post about on a forum. The problem is, usually they just end up being Inspector Clouseau. 

The reality is that it's short disappearance just had to do with maintenance/modification to the page or the item, and not a mistake.


----------



## andrewm9

SilverTabby said:


> In the WDdex both Repentia and Penitent Engines got a lot better than in C:WH. For one, Repentia could ride in tanks. And Engines could get double digits of attacks in combat... Plus Rage no longer meant they had to charge pellmell, but instead just got extra attacks
> 
> Let's see what the whole thing does now. I'll be happy if the Canoness and retinue are worth taking...


Penitent Engines didn't start that way in the WD codex. Remember we had a year of being in 5th edition where they completely sucked. I will try to remain cautiously optimistic however about this new codex. I am a mild pessimist by nature unfortunately as my lack of faith in the rest of humanity is constantly sustained. When something good happens though, I am that much happier for it.


----------



## SilverTabby

andrewm9 said:


> Penitent Engines didn't start that way in the WD codex. Remember we had a year of being in 5th edition where they completely sucked. I will try to remain cautiously optimistic however about this new codex. I am a mild pessimist by nature unfortunately as my lack of faith in the rest of humanity is constantly sustained. When something good happens though, I am that much happier for it.


True, but what you have to bear in mind is that the WDdex was written for 6th, and when penned the rulebook was finished and ready to go to pre-production. So in the writers eyes, they were always that way in this version. I remember playing a game against Phil just before the WDdex came out, and he was very confused about what things did, and how 40k worked in 5th. 

Once they'd written it, they would have gotten someone else to go through it and change names back to 5th ed versions.


----------



## SilverTabby

I'm really hoping some of the things that got sent to them have been taken into account. I forwarded several critiques for people from this forum, as well as my own. *fingers crossed*


----------



## Mokuren

SilverTabby said:


> Let's see what the whole thing does now. I'll be happy if the Canoness and retinue are worth taking...


Tell me about it, I play a canoness and it never fails to be an utter waste of points every game.

Seriously, somebody explain me how that thing is worth as much as a chaos lord. Please.


----------



## locustgate

Mokuren said:


> Seriously, somebody explain me how that thing is worth as much as a chaos lord. Please.


It has two things a Chaos Lord doesn't have....I hope.


----------



## andrewm9

SilverTabby said:


> True, but what you have to bear in mind is that the WDdex was written for 6th, and when penned the rulebook was finished and ready to go to pre-production. So in the writers eyes, they were always that way in this version. I remember playing a game against Phil just before the WDdex came out, and he was very confused about what things did, and how 40k worked in 5th.
> 
> Once they'd written it, they would have gotten someone else to go through it and change names back to 5th ed versions.


That's interesting. I noted when the codex came out that the writers were not playing the same game as me. Turns out I was right. In fact I was downright pissed about the whole thing. It turned out to be significantly more effective once 6th hit.


----------



## Routine

locustgate said:


> It has two things a Chaos Lord doesn't have....I hope.


Boobs are all well and good, but they dont really have an in-game effect.

Actually, there are two scenarios I can think of: 

1) The Cannoness is in a Rhino that gets into a front-end collision and the boobs function as air-bags, thereby allowing her to survive and continue the persecution of the Emperor's enemies.

2) Your girlfriend walks in while you are in the middle of a battle, and the prescence of a biological female in the room serves as so much of a distraction for your socially-inexperienced opponent that he cant keep his mind on the match and is gloriously crushed.


----------



## Suijin

Well I guess I have to take back getting screwed vs SM, as they pay +10 points also for their veteran. Now don't get me wrong I think both of them are still way over priced, but at least they are the same.

I guess there is hope for 10 Heavy Flamers, but probably not the Condemnor Boltgun.


----------



## Mossy Toes

Uh... a free 6++? Nope, I got nuffin.


----------



## dragonkingofthestars

locustgate said:


> It has two things a Chaos Lord doesn't have....I hope.


Your ignorance, pleases Slaanesh.

oh BLEEP i invoked chaos in a sister of battle thread!


----------



## locustgate

dragonkingofthestars said:


> Your ignorance, pleases Slaanesh.
> 
> oh BLEEP i invoked chaos in a sister of battle thread!


HERETIC!!!! BURN! That's why I said 'I hope'.


----------



## Shandathe

SilverTabby said:


> In the WDdex both Repentia and Penitent Engines got a lot better than in C:WH. For one, Repentia could ride in tanks. And Engines could get double digits of attacks in combat... Plus Rage no longer meant they had to charge pellmell, but instead just got extra attacks
> 
> Let's see what the whole thing does now. I'll be happy if the Canoness and retinue are worth taking...


I decided to dust off an old text file and finally finish and post it - has some thoughts on all the stuff in the WDex. Might be interesting to see what other people think while it's still semi-relevant.


----------



## Shandathe

It's up. http://www.blacklibrary.com/games-workshop-digital-editions/Codex-Adepta-Sororitas.html

20 pounds, 26 Euro, and for the dollar crowd it's 33 US, 35 Canadian, and a happy Screw You Again Australia at 40 Australia. By actual exchange rate according to Google 20 pounds should be closer to 23.5 Euro, 32 USD, 33 CDN, and 33.5 AUD, but there's taxes to consider and I suppose sending the eBook through the internet all the way to the Aussies costs GW a lot of money 

There's also a bunch of one-click collections to support it... which only showcase once again that Sister players are playing the most expensive army of the lot.


EDIT: Seriously, I knew it was bad, but with the collections (which naturally only save you TIME) it becomes bleeding obvious. Holy f*ck.


----------



## dragonkingofthestars

Shandathe said:


> There's also a bunch of one-click collections to support it... which only showcase once again that Sister players are playing the most expensive army of the lot.


while i think that's blob guard you thinking off, your mostly correct. Still it's a step in the right direction, or at least a stumble.


----------



## locustgate

GED when is the Dex being released, I hate it that BL never has a release date.


----------



## Shandathe

Locustgate: Actual release is one week from now - most likely at midnight GMT again.

dragonkingofthestars: Whether Blob Guard is more or less expensive (by points) actually depends on the weapon choices on the IG, as well as what they're supporting the blobs with. For naked squads it's actually remarkably close in terms of money / points.


----------



## Shandathe

From the iTunes page. Martyrdom. That's new. Given her current status, it better be something good... that or the armoury. Sadly, I can't open the preview fragment to see if there's more due to lack of an iPad.


----------



## Zion

Here we go: http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/10/news-codex-adepta-sororitas-preview-live.html



It's all the free images from the BL, the iTunes page and the entire free preview codex (minus one duplicate). 30 pages for your enjoyment.


----------



## Shandathe

Thanks. It's unfortunate - though hardly unexpected - that the preview distinctly lacks rule details  

Going through the pictures to see if they've hidden any new models in there, but (so far?) the only one I've spotted that's not in general use is the one holding the big Ecclesiarchy icon in the middle of the first group shot, between two girls with Storm Bolters.


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> Thanks. It's unfortunate - though hardly unexpected - that the preview distinctly lacks rule details


Yup. They stopped doing that sometime early this year. Post Eldar I think.



Shandathe said:


> Going through the pictures to see if they've hidden any new models in there, but (so far?) the only one I've spotted that's not in general use is the one holding the big Ecclesiarchy icon in the middle of the first group shot, between two girls with Storm Bolters.


You mean in this one?









That model with the golden I is the OOP Canoness with the Icon and a combi-flamer.


----------



## Archon Dan

Martyrdom sounds like a really bad idea. I hope I'm wrong but it sounds like the kind of rule where it will be better to get your HQ slain. Something like the old Ethereal for Tau. Anyway, I'm hoping for a great codex and I want to see the ladies in action more.


----------



## Doelago

30€ for what is practically a White Dwarf re-print with some insignificant add-ons? Damn. 

And those 1-Click Bundles are ridiculous.


----------



## Shandathe

Zion said:


> Yup. They stopped doing that sometime early this year. Post Eldar I think.
> 
> You mean in this one?
> 
> That model with the golden I is the OOP Canoness with the Icon and a combi-flamer.


Yep. Which isn't in general usage, but not a really exciting find. 



Archon Dan said:


> Martyrdom sounds like a really bad idea. I hope I'm wrong but it sounds like the kind of rule where it will be better to get your HQ slain. Something like the old Ethereal for Tau. Anyway, I'm hoping for a great codex and I want to see the ladies in action more.


Which might've been brought back from Witch Hunters - it wouldn't have been the first time we had to deal with it.


----------



## Zion

WD Daily slipped us another image:


----------



## Orochi

Just seen the prices of the models on the GW website.

Good Luck, sister players!


----------



## Mokuren

Shandathe said:


> From the iTunes page. Martyrdom. That's new. Given her current status, it better be something good... that or the armoury. Sadly, I can't open the preview fragment to see if there's more due to lack of an iPad.


Oh come now, _still_ 65 points? That's bullshit.

Her faith power and this Martyrdom thing better get boosted through the roof and make people scream "CHEESE!" all over the internet. The 10 points discount on the rosarius is nice, but the canoness needed 20 off herself.


----------



## Loli

Dear mother of God. I checked out the Sisters bundles hoping they may have gone back to the box of Sisters for this release. But my god. Those bundles just prove how expensive Sisters are to collect. Further reaffirming my belief this release won't encourage new Sisters players. I don't believe they are dead and all this crap, just that this release is for the current Sisters players. Because at those prices you won't get many new players in, leaving just the current Sisters players to buy this digital book. Sadly I know of many Sisters players who won't buy this book for that reason. 

Still im loving the Sisters art. Can't wait to buy it even if I think the price is a tad steep.


----------



## locustgate

Archon Dan said:


> Martyrdom


I would think that it would be more along the lines of 'take a leadership if passed all sisters in x gain (something good)', I don't think it will be anything that can hurt your army.

(something good)=reroll to wound, preferred enemy, or etc.


----------



## Shandathe

locustgate said:


> I would think that it would be more along the lines of 'take a leadership if passed all sisters in x gain (something good)', I don't think it will be anything that can hurt your army.
> 
> (something good)=reroll to wound, preferred enemy, or etc.


Don't be too sure. In C:WH is was "Gain the Faith Points you originally got for this model when she dies", which was situationally good but not normally desirable. Given the name, this is likely another effect that triggers when she (or something else friendly?) bites it.


Zion: I'm noticing that GW is reusing a whole lot of artwork I thought to be FFG's...


----------



## Zion

Mokuren said:


> Oh come now, _still_ 65 points? That's bullshit.
> 
> Her faith power and this Martyrdom thing better get boosted through the roof and make people scream "CHEESE!" all over the internet. The 10 points discount on the rosarius is nice, but the canoness needed 20 off herself.


Yeah, being the same base cost as a Chaos Lord is not good.



Loli said:


> Dear mother of God. I checked out the Sisters bundles hoping they may have gone back to the box of Sisters for this release. But my god. Those bundles just prove how expensive Sisters are to collect. Further reaffirming my belief this release won't encourage new Sisters players. I don't believe they are dead and all this crap, just that this release is for the current Sisters players. Because at those prices you won't get many new players in, leaving just the current Sisters players to buy this digital book. Sadly I know of many Sisters players who won't buy this book for that reason.
> 
> Still im loving the Sisters art. Can't wait to buy it even if I think the price is a tad steep.


The higher availability of the codex and the smaller unit size might result in a bump in Sisters allies though.

But no, I don't see it kicking off any new full sized Sisters armies.


----------



## revilo44

guys i know this a bit of silly question but should i get the digital dex or wait for the hardback


----------



## locustgate

revilo44 said:


> guys i know this a bit of silly question but should i get the digital dex or wait for the hardback


I don't think they are releasing a hardback, atleast not in the foreseeable future. If you have a kindle or and ereader then get the digital.


----------



## revilo44

locustgate said:


> I don't think they are releasing a hardback, atleast not in the foreseeable future. If you have a kindle or and ereader then get the digital.


thanks. i have an ipad so i will use ibooks. 

i would have thought GW would have done this one click in finecast to attract players.


----------



## Shandathe

revilo44 said:


> thanks. i have an ipad so i will use ibooks.
> 
> i would have thought GW would have done this one click in finecast to attract players.


But that would've taken more than the hour or so it took to get the one-clicks together. 

My current pet theory is that Robin Cruddace is doing all the work on Sororitas in his spare time, only getting us even this much through liberal use of favors and blackmail. :wink:


----------



## locustgate

revilo44 said:


> thanks. i have an ipad so i will use ibooks.
> 
> i would have thought GW would have done this one click in finecast to attract players.


It seems like it's more of life support. I would jump on a sister army like a demonette if it came in plastic.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Is there anything in the codex which could let me use the FW arbiter with cyber mastiff?


----------



## andrewm9

Words_of_Truth said:


> Is there anything in the codex which could let me use the FW arbiter with cyber mastiff?


Doubtful,why would there be? The one group has little to do with the other despite having been lumped together in Codex Witch Hunter. Given what I have seen so far, I doubt there will be any new units or new unit pricing given that Battle Sisters and The Canoness are the same price they were before.


----------



## SilverTabby

Words_of_Truth said:


> Is there anything in the codex which could let me use the FW arbiter with cyber mastiff?


A Missionary? A priest? The mastiff as stand-in for an assassin or crusader? There's unlikely to be a direct translation, but with a bit of imagination... After all, all my tanks are dinosaurs...


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Was just wondering as I thought maybe they'd work closer with local law enforcement but no worries.


----------



## Kettu

Sororitas and Arbites do work together on occasion as their roles do overlap to a degree.
But then every militant group in the Imperium has overlapping roles with at least several other organisations.

There is an official fluff piece about the Sisters and Arbites, the origin of the Sisters's Rhino variant, the Repressor.

The Repressor is originally an Arbite only Rhino variant but after some massive battle where the Sisters used them to great effect, the Arbites gifted the Sisterhood with permission to use the design also. (Though the Sisters replaced the Web Shooter and Gas-grenade Launcher with a Flamer and Storm Bolter)

Also, BL has a novel about the Arbites, Enforcer by Matthew Farrer, that has a little on the Arbite-Sororita relationship.

But as far as Codices are concerned; I hope the only non-Sororita elements present are Ecclesiarchy. 

No Arbites. 
No Inquisition. 
No 'Forces of the Imperium'.
No 'We ran out of ideas so lets share the dex with another faction we want to start pushing'.

I also hope that even that is kept to a max one third, preferably less, of the total units and elements.


----------



## locustgate

Kettu said:


> Also, BL has a novel about the Arbites, Enforcer by Matthew Farrer, that has a little on the Arbite-Sororita relationship.


In the 1st SoB book the sisters were called in to interrogate a prisoner, although the sisters were the ones to capture them..


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Guess I'd kind of like to do a planetary defence force a long with some sisters. Just A, I don't want them to look like Cadians and B, the Sisters of Battle are damn expensive.


----------



## dragonkingofthestars

you know, to go off topic a bit this is something i just don't get.

You get fake space marines day in and day out, not to knock them you understand, (anvil industry pretty good stuff) but why do we not get ANY alternate sister models despite there being almost no viable competition for them? 

I mean look at the price on the pewter sisters! you think some one would try for a plastic version to get in that unprotected niche.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

That's just reminded me, a converted sisters of battle army would be quite impressive, I've seen a project log with some conversions but I don't think I've seen a full army.


----------



## locustgate

dragonkingofthestars said:


> knock them


Chuckle. I would buy em and the only time I but 'not a x' is when it's heads.


----------



## SilverTabby

dragonkingofthestars said:


> you know, to go off topic a bit this is something i just don't get.
> 
> You get fake space marines day in and day out, not to knock them you understand, (anvil industry pretty good stuff) but why do we not get ANY alternate sister models despite there being almost no viable competition for them?
> 
> I mean look at the price on the pewter sisters! you think some one would try for a plastic version to get in that unprotected niche.


Because the marine armour set-up is quite easy to manipulate until it's close enough to look like a GW marine, but not be exactly right. The Sisters armour setup is very distinctive and unique, and straying too near it would be a very risky business indeed...


----------



## Khorne's Fist

£50 for one squad of troops and £43 for 5 retributors? Seriously?

I can't believe there's not a single new model for them. This is nearly as bad as what happened to the squats. Anybody have an idea what a viable 2000pt force might cost to buy? I'm too stunned to try and work it out myself.


----------



## Shandathe

Khorne's Fist said:


> £50 for one squad of troops and £43 for 5 retributors? Seriously?
> 
> I can't believe there's not a single new model for them. This is nearly as bad as what happened to the squats. Anybody have an idea what a viable 2000pt force might cost to buy? I'm too stunned to try and work it out myself.


Well, they say their 'Daughters of the Emperor' one-click is about 1500, and it goes for £432. So a very wild estimate says 432 + 432/3 = £576... though their army selection strikes me as peculiar in many places, EVERY model is expensive so switching them out doesn't really change things.

Of course if you're in another part of the world, you pay more - Aussies getting the short end of the stick as usual at about 1550 AUD (ie. about £920 at current official exchange rates).


----------



## SilverTabby

This codex isn't for new players. It's to keep the existing players happy, and maybe get a few allies in. 

New proper codexes are for new players, and new models...


----------



## Karyudo-DS

SilverTabby said:


> This codex isn't for new players. It's to keep the existing players happy, and maybe get a few allies in.
> 
> New proper codexes are for new players, and new models...


This is what I've been telling people. You can't seriously compare a plastic Tactical Squad box/etc to a 10-old-metal-model-bundle. If this were for new players those would at least be 10 model boxes instead of bundles and likely Finecast instead of metal at least.

Instead this is a more of a stopgap to give those with SoB an army tweaked to work with this edition for low production cost for them to give us ANYTHING since we love to complain about tracking down WD's left and right. 

Actually doesn't seem like a bad idea to release something like this to bring armies in line with edition changes, nothing to fancy but it works. Costs extra to us if we want it but if optional I could live with it.


----------



## Shandathe

Yeah, but it's not really optional. Despite it's stopgap nature, as of next week that's the current SoB codex.

On the one hand, it doesn't seem like a bad idea.

On the other, it's a patch job of a two year old patch job on something that hadn't been maintained for a dozen years by then.


----------



## SilverTabby

'fraid that's the way it is. 

One consideration most don't take into account when wanting a new Sisters Codex: they are religious fanatics, sworn to die for their deity and willing to kill all who don't agree with them using incendiaries and high explosives. Sound familiar to a real life situation? A codex of that nature really has to be handled carefully. If you are looking for a reason the codex hasn't been updated properly, bear that in mind too.


----------



## dragonkingofthestars

SilverTabby said:


> 'fraid that's the way it is.
> 
> One consideration most don't take into account when wanting a new Sisters Codex: they are religious fanatics, sworn to die for their deity and willing to kill all who don't agree with them using incendiaries and high explosives. Sound familiar to a real life situation? A codex of that nature really has to be handled carefully. If you are looking for a reason the codex hasn't been updated properly, bear that in mind too.


Ohh, i never, ever thought about that, sort of like i never got the joke about me having a terrorist dreadnought till it was pointed out to me.

That explains a lot actually if you think about it.


----------



## locustgate

SilverTabby said:


> stuff.


Ok...I'm going to offend someone in saying this but, I don't think I've ever read of a sister blowing herself up as a first resort, blowing others up yes. 

Edit: More offensive stuff. Surrounded by heretics and about to be killed and blowing herself up, yes. Strapping a bomb to her chest and running into a building then blowing herself up, no.


----------



## SilverTabby

SilverTabby said:


> 'fraid that's the way it is.
> 
> One consideration most don't take into account when wanting a new Sisters Codex: they are religious fanatics, sworn to die for their deity and willing to kill all who don't agree with them using incendiaries and high explosives. Sound familiar to a real life situation? A codex of that nature really has to be handled carefully. If you are looking for a reason the codex hasn't been updated properly, bear that in mind too.





locustgate said:


> Ok...I'm going to offend someone in saying this but, I don't think I've ever read of a sister blowing herself up as a first resort, blowing others up yes.
> 
> Edit: More offensive stuff. Surrounded by heretics and about to be killed and blowing herself up, yes. Strapping a bomb to her chest and running into a building then blowing herself up, no.


Read what I wrote. I never said Sisters were suicide bombers, but that the reality of their teachings and methods comes dangerously close to situations that are very real right now. The real life situation is about more than suicide bombers, they just make the headlines a lot.


----------



## Chaplain-Grimaldus

Well.... This escalated quickly.


----------



## locustgate

SilverTabby said:


> Stuff.


I did you hinted that they are a step from blowing themselves up.


----------



## ntaw

Not that I expect to be the first person to post this, but

HEY DID YOU GUYS SEE THIS?!

It's even still metal miniatures. Suh-weet, eh?


----------



## Shandathe

SilverTabby said:


> A codex of that nature really has to be handled carefully. If you are looking for a reason the codex hasn't been updated properly, bear that in mind too.


I don't think that's the issue. Remember the Grey Knights. Those massacring the Sisters was somehow okay... according to GW.



ntaw said:


> It's even still metal miniatures. Suh-weet, eh?


We've been talking about it. We're pretty much agreed that no, it's not. If there had been any NEW metal miniatures in there, that would've been something else, but... :no:


----------



## SilverTabby

Shandathe said:


> I don't think that's the issue. Remember the Grey Knights. Those massacring the Sisters was somehow okay... according to GW.


That is a single story, within the fluff of a chapter sworn to killing daemons. Not an entire book based on a religious sect who kill in the name of the Emperor, those who don't follow the Emperor. 

And Locustgate - no I didn't. That's why I requoted my original post. I said they blow people up with high explosives (have you ever read the descriptions of bolter rounds of all types?) and that they were willing to die for their deity. That's a *big* difference. 

Anyway, people wanted to know a possible reason for GW avoiding redoing what is a popular sub-army. Dismiss it all you like, but it's a valid reason.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Those prices are absolutely insane.


----------



## Shandathe

It's far closer to the Spanish Inquisition than anything recent... well, other than the bit where heretics literally risk the world being eaten by Daemons. :grin:


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> I don't think that's the issue. Remember the Grey Knights. Those massacring the Sisters was somehow okay... according to GW.


According to 2nd Edition Grey Knights would Exterminatus any witnesses save for Space Marines who were mindwiped when possible.

So yeah, not out of character for the Grey Knights. They've always been dicks.


----------



## ntaw

Shandathe said:


> We're pretty much agreed that no, it's not.


I forgot my orange text on that one, my bad. I was surprised that it's such a soft release.


----------



## locustgate

Shandathe said:


> Spanish Inquisition


But with less torture, that's more of the inquisitions department.


----------



## Shandathe

Yes. To be honest, even the Spanish Inquisition is pretty far away, as by and large the Orders Militant are a defensive force. 

Protecting just about every stronghold of the Ecclesiarchy is going to tie up a LOT of women. It's an Imperium of a million worlds and the Ecclesiarchy has a presence on the vast majority of them. 

Add guarding Pilgrimage routes and serving on the Black Ships, and it's a miracle the Adepta Sororitas have anyone to spare to assist the Ordo Hereticus when they require it - but again, that's a defensive task. Just one that will more often require bringing out the big guns than standing guard over a Cathedral would. And assisting the Ordo Hereticus most likely generally happens on worlds the Sororitas are already ON. Arriving at a planet with a large force of Battle Sisters seems like it would be the best way to tell any heretic to keep their head down until the damn Inquisitor goes away. Arriving alone and then calling in the Sisters already there once the presence of heretics has been ascertained... that's a far better proposition.

That's not even getting into the tasks of the Orders Hospitaller, Dialogous and Famulous - all of which are distinctly more subtle than the Orders Militant, but as important in their own ways.


----------



## Shandathe

As the time of this post, it's a mere one hundred hours until the eDex release. *ding*


----------



## Tawa

I've just been having a leaf through the old lists for nostalgia purposes.

I still miss my Frateris Militia


----------



## slaaneshy

SilverTabby said:


> 'fraid that's the way it is.
> 
> One consideration most don't take into account when wanting a new Sisters Codex: they are religious fanatics, sworn to die for their deity and willing to kill all who don't agree with them using incendiaries and high explosives. Sound familiar to a real life situation? A codex of that nature really has to be handled carefully. If you are looking for a reason the codex hasn't been updated properly, bear that in mind too.


I'm sorry, but that is so daft, I presume you have to be joking?!? :laugh: 

After all, Marines are all Emperor worshipers who kill all that don't agree with Him, or am I missing something?!?

However, if I do ever read about a suicide bomber who in their final recorded speech mentions the Sisters of Battle codex as their motivation, I will of course take my mirth back and bow to your insight. Although I still assume this was a joke?


----------



## locustgate

slaaneshy said:


> After all, Marines are all Emperor worshipers stuff SoB suicide bomber


SMs don't worship the Emperor they believe he is the greatest mortal to ever live but not a god.

Glad I'm not the only one that read him suggesting they are suicide bombers.


----------



## SilverTabby

slaaneshy said:


> I'm sorry, but that is so daft, I presume you have to be joking?!? :laugh:
> 
> After all, Marines are all Emperor worshipers who kill all that don't agree with Him, or am I missing something?!?
> 
> However, if I do ever read about a suicide bomber who in their final recorded speech mentions the Sisters of Battle codex as their motivation, I will of course take my mirth back and bow to your insight. Although I still assume this was a joke?


No, I'm not joking. And you need to bear in mind GW is a Global company, with the Middle East as an emerging market. 

This is why marketing strategists are paid to think about these things, rather than gamers. There's a whole real world out there, with some subjects that are very touchy. It's not about inciting religious hatred etc and motivating them, it's about not offending your potential customers by making light of their situation by trivialising it within your product.

And no, I'm still not saying Sisters are suicide bombers, and slaaneshy didn't say I said that either. 

It's all about context. No other faction within the 40k game is an army purely centered around violent religion.

And Locustgate - I'm a her  Also a her who worked for almost a decade in the Studio, so have a bit of an insight into how their brains work...


----------



## locustgate

SilverTabby said:


> her worked Studio


I hope you tolerate my skepticism about both.


----------



## Mossy Toes

locustgate said:


> I hope you tolerate my skepticism about both.


Having seen SilverTabby's Golden Daemon silver-winning homemade sculpt and paint plogs of a Seraphim, I'm certainly inclined to believe she has the skills for it, locustgate.


----------



## SilverTabby

locustgate said:


> I hope you tolerate my skepticism about both.


The 'her' bit both my husband and two kids can attest is true ;-)

The studio bit - jan 17th 2000 to August 2009 in the 'Eavy Metal team. If you choose to disbelieve, that's no skin off my nose. Just thought people might like a little insight into how some of these things work. Though I will freely admit several things have changed since I left to raise the kids, so maybe the top-level paranoia about this has eased so they are seriously thinking about it again.


----------



## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> The 'her' bit both my husband and two kids can attest is true ;-)
> 
> The studio bit - jan 17th 2000 to August 2009 in the 'Eavy Metal team. If you choose to disbelieve, that's no skin off my nose. Just thought people might like a little insight into how some of these things work. Though I will freely admit several things have changed since I left to raise the kids, so maybe the top-level paranoia about this has eased so they are seriously thinking about it again.


I always got the impression that the Sisters were more "Space Not-Catholics" than anything else, but outside of that we've seen recently that there is a push to get them done. According to some rumor buzz, the only reason they didn't get a codex in 2011 was because they couldn't get the models working. Rather than give us a half-finished codex they updated what we had and moved the Inquisition out of the book to make room for the eventual inclusion of more Ecclesiarchy.

Personally I see that as being more likely of a reason for them to have missed the update boat recently than continued nervousness about someone getting mad at them for having angry nuns in space wielding guns. But that's just my take on that.

We've got confirmation of people in the studio with Sisters as their main army, we know Cruddace collects them, Ward has shown the ability to write them fairly well and even Kelly seems game as he said at Enter the Citadel that he has some ideas for them (he better with that massive feedback letter I sent!). So the interest is there, and we know that they believe they have the ability to produce models now too. Which is great because it means they weren't trying to just pass us some lazy gak or redesigning them into something else, but trying to give us a real update on the army.

So I remain hopeful that we'll see something in the next year, as if the bean counters are really worried about the army doing poorly putting it after the start of their fiscal year (which is June) and before Christmas is the place to put them. Add in a sure money maker like Space Marines in the same quarter, and even if Sisters do somehow bomb, it won't nail their bottom line enough to be a problem on the investor reports. :grin:


----------



## locustgate

Zion said:


> "Space Not-Catholics" angry nuns something in the next year


Their main colors and off duty clothes screech classic catholic nun.

Are there another kind of nun:wink:. :laugh: 

That's my hope, but I doubt it.


----------



## Necrosis

Wouldn't Imperial Guard Penal Legion raise more eyebrows then the sisters of battle? I mean these are people with bomb collars who are force to fight.


----------



## locustgate

Necrosis said:


> Wouldn't Imperial Guard Penal Legion raise more eyebrows then the sisters of battle? I mean these are people with bomb collars who are force to fight.


I thought the collars only kept them from running away, although I suppose a general could set them off on purpose.


----------



## SilverTabby

Necrosis said:


> Wouldn't Imperial Guard Penal Legion raise more eyebrows then the sisters of battle? I mean these are people with bomb collars who are force to fight.


If you can show a real world parallel, then I'd agree with you. But I don't believe any where actually straps bombs around prisoners necks and sends them into war. Closest historical parallel would be the drafting of black slaves by the Americans in their various wars. But then, that's historical and not a contensious issue right now.


----------



## locustgate

SilverTabby said:


> straps bombs around prisoners necks and sends them into war.


Well there are accounts of Soviets and Japanese making PoW and rescued PoWs fight for them, Reds case it was claimed that they refused to let the rescued PoWs go home and kept them in their military till later times. And I'm not going to google the strapping part, I'm probably already on a watch list.
There were accounts of both sides shooting PoWs who refused.


----------



## Tawa

True, and the Soviets/Germans also used POWs to clear minefields. With a big log.....


----------



## SilverTabby

Again, all historical, not happening right now. 

Still, this has derailed somewhat. Anyone got a full look at the codex yet? Or will nothing be seen til actual release date as it's a digital one?


----------



## locustgate

SilverTabby said:


> Again, all historical, not happening right now.


You asked for a real world parallel...ok I believe you when you say you're a woman.

P.S. I doubt we would know any instances happening right now since no one here is a psyker.

P.P.S. I hope....:security:


----------



## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> Again, all historical, not happening right now.
> 
> Still, this has derailed somewhat. Anyone got a full look at the codex yet? Or will nothing be seen til actual release date as it's a digital one?


It's digital only, so the only way we're getting leaks is if they come from inside GW on this one. We'll see it this weekend.


----------



## Shandathe

Just three days. We can wait that long 

Re: Penal legions, there's the historic Roman Penal Legion, which consisted of slaves and debtors. They didn't threaten so much as promise to set free for a victory (well, originally they promised freedom for a Carthaginian head, but it was amended when individual slaves/debtors stopped fighting to cut off heads :grin: )



Mossy Toes said:


> Having seen SilverTabby's Golden Daemon silver-winning homemade sculpt and paint plogs of a Seraphim, I'm certainly inclined to believe she has the skills for it, locustgate.


Given that said Seraphim was also in the (weirdly formatted) White Dwarf pictorials for the Golden Daemon with a name attached - which effectively proves both claims - I suggest believing it completely and worshipping at her paint table in the hope she posts more pictures of future work.


----------



## Necrosis

SilverTabby said:


> If you can show a real world parallel, then I'd agree with you. But I don't believe any where actually straps bombs around prisoners necks and sends them into war. Closest historical parallel would be the drafting of black slaves by the Americans in their various wars. But then, that's historical and not a contensious issue right now.


Well this is not a war example but thieves have been kidnapping people, straping a bomb on them and then getting them to rob a bank.


----------



## Zion

Moving away from the depressing nature of reality, I'm excited as tomorrow night is the codex release (depending on your timezone of course). 

So tomorrow we'll see if I'll be using the Sisters rules or running my army as "Count-As Salamanders" in the future. :/


----------



## dragonkingofthestars

Zion said:


> Moving away from the depressing nature of reality, I'm excited as tomorrow night is the codex release (depending on your timezone of course).
> 
> So tomorrow we'll see if I'll be using the Sisters rules or running my army as "Count-As Salamanders" in the future. :/


I always thought grey knights worked better for sisters, all those psyker powers do a good stand in for acts of faith.

I too am excited for the codex, BRING IT ON!! I WANT TO USE A GOD MADOKA MODEL AS A LIVING SAINT!


----------



## Zion

dragonkingofthestars said:


> I always thought grey knights worked better for sisters, all those psyker powers do a good stand in for acts of faith.
> 
> I too am excited for the codex, BRING IT ON!! I WANT TO USE A GOD MADOKA MODEL AS A LIVING SAINT!


Maybe so, but then I lose the purging power of fire, bolter and melta and trade it for witchery and stormbolters.


----------



## Shandathe

Ten hours and change to go, and I'm wondering... this is a worldwide simultaneous release (yay internet). Might it be an idea for us poor sods who already ordered ours to come together in the TalkWargaming chat and go through it together? 

We can post a chatlog here later with the choice bits of angry ranting... :grin:


----------



## Creon

I would assume a Midnight release wherever you are. Or are you assuming Midnight Greenwich?


----------



## Shandathe

I'm assuming midnight greenwich. That was the case for pre-orders opening, too.


----------



## Shandathe

In related evidence, we've yet to hear from New Zealand/Australia, and it's October 19 over there already. Admittedly, screwing over the Aussies appears to be one of GWs vices... but I'm expecting worldwide.


----------



## Marcus_Iscariat

I'm expecting we'll get it at 12am UK time or 10am Aus


----------



## Zion

Or 12am EST for iTunes in North America.


----------



## SilverTabby

I'll be firmly asleep at midnight tonight, what with the kids insisting on 6am starts at the weekend. Ranting / praising here would be welcome  

I've been forbidden to buy it myself, as the husband wants to get it for me for christmas. *sigh*


----------



## Zion

SilverTabby said:


> I'll be firmly asleep at midnight tonight, what with the kids insisting on 6am starts at the weekend. Ranting / praising here would be welcome
> 
> I've been forbidden to buy it myself, as the husband wants to get it for me for christmas. *sigh*


So how many police officers did it take to wrestle the Eviscerator from you before you did him in over that choice?


----------



## spidie2000

Ive heard from someome in Australia on facebook that acts of faith are 1 time use only. Thats all he said. But they claim to have the book there now.


----------



## Shandathe

Well, it's officially out now here in Europe - I'm over in the chat on TalkWarGaming.


----------



## Suijin

Google Chrome did not let me download for some reason, but Windows Explorer is downloading it. Wish I had thought to try that hours ago.

I'm in Central time zone USA.


----------



## locustgate

Warning Adapta Soritas may cause:
Foaming at the mouth
(you may want to consult a medicae as it may be signs of rabies....or the Blood god)
Sudden intense hatred of the Emperors enemies
(Gingers and mediums...just kidding gingers...........:security
Sudden renouncing of your heretical ways
Seeing images of the emperor 
(Be cautious may be a ploy of the trickster god)


----------



## locustgate

Warning Adapta Soritas may cause:
Foaming at the mouth
(you may want to consult a medicae as it may be signs of rabies....or the Blood god)
Sudden intense hatred of the Emperors enemies
(Gingers and mediums...just kidding gingers...........:security
Sudden renouncing of your heretical ways
Seeing images of the emperor 
(Be cautious may be a ploy of the trickster god)


EDIT: And the sudden inability to wait 7 GOD EMPEROR DAMNED MINUTES!

EDIT2: And the sudden idea that your internet is working with the c'tan


----------



## Shandathe

It's... interesting. The Acts of Faith mechanic has definitely had some more thought put into it. All squads can use their Act of Faith once per battle (twice with a 10 point Simulacrum for those who can take one). Some are up in power a bit, others are (roughly) the same. You generally had a 50% chance of using one before, this time it's better but you need to think on when to use them.

There's a lot of rebalancing in point costs going on. Many such flow from the fact that weapon prices have been copy-pasted from the SM Codex (mostly a good thing). Exorcist is down 10 points, PE is down 5 (and while a bit more reliable lost some offensive capability - STILL not likely to get there to deliver it). Rhinos are up 5, which must be the save. HB Immos lost their Inferno rounds. 

SCs have been revised. Celestine isn't quite AS persistent, as lethal, or as cheap. Uriah's banner was nerfed a bit but he's interesting overall. For some reason, Kyrinov has a fluff bit after Uriah's rules, but there do not appear to be rules for him.


----------



## Ryu_Niimura

Such a shame the models are still metal, those prices are pretty much the only thing keeping me from starting a SoB army


----------



## Zion

Took me a bit to go through it all (and 50% of my iPad's battery) but I've gone through the codex and I'm willing to give it a try. It's not perfect, but it's got my interest peaked.

I also did a full write-up on my thoughts over on TWG for the curious: http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/10/codex-adepta-sororitas-review.html


----------



## Shandathe

I just hit the submit button for my thoughts, but I got the wrong forum... the Adepta Sororitas Tactics wants moderator approval :dunno:

Meh, I'll toss it in the section it was supposed to go if it doesn't get approved.


----------



## Shandathe

@Zion, some notes on your notes as I go through them: 

*Relics:*
Blade of Admonition is actually a copy - paste of the old Blessed Weapon, except we're only offered a Sword version. It's pretty good from what I remember, served me faithfully in multiple editions.
Mace of Valaan - Kyrinov is an even more useless model. He's not in the Codex anymore 

*Wargear*
Eviscerator access is actually significantly wider than it was before. Every Sister Superior has access to Melee Weapons - EXCEPT for the Seraphim Superior you named as having it. But yeah, 30 points :nono:

*Dedicated Transports*
The Immo is a C&P of the SM Razorback with a single different weapon option now. Immo effectively went down 10 points but paid for the 6+ Inv save.

*Elites*
Repentia - yeah no, their FNP doesn't IMPROVE with their Act. They don't normally HAVE it anymore. They'll pretty much die if an enemy so much as shoots them a filthy look. The general uselessness of Repentia may well be continuing for their third Codex in a row.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Can't buy dex til money comes in next week, but from the reviews:

Not sure about some things in regards to competitiveness and pricing, but Fluffy fluffy fluffness, with some interesting directions I could see coming in whatever the final product will be.

Useful priests: Cheaper too, with War hymns. This in and of itself makes me grin with righteous fury in the name of the emperor. The addition of a priest to a sisters unit making for a fairly robust objective holder is nice as well.

Retribs.
Reliable rending heavy flamers. Have always loved the easy bake oven, now in my mind the only reason to take a squad over the cheaper 3rd exo.

Dominions:
Cover ignoring melta is nice, but not sure that my flamer dominions will see as much use.

Command squad:
Having the option of 5 flamers in the command squad...can you tell I like to purge with fire? also dialogous able to take relics piques my interest

RABBLE!:
Cheap arco/cultist meat shield with some crusaders out front for armor saves.

Vehicles:
Free multi meltas on immolators, oh and squads that can fit in them. Repentia!

I can already see a few different fluff based build possibilities with decent competitiveness, and of course the standby immy spam is better.

Way disappointed in the penitents. But rabble led by priests backed by power armored sisters is looking fun.


----------



## Suijin

Eviscerator access is less as there is an * meaning only Priests and Canonesses.


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Priest with eviscorator smash warhymn isn't bad for big nids and such.


----------



## Shandathe

Good point :shok:

On an aside, Ministorum Priests starts out with a Laspistol which they can exchange for an Autogun for free (or a Bolt pistol or Boltgun for 1 point). I'm not even sure why anyone would bring the Laspistol...


----------



## Purge the Heretic

Mad cow posted Battle Sister Death Star over on dakka dakka:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I can take a 20 Sister unit, put 5 priests in it and 2 HQs.

Priests:
Ecclesiarchy Relic: Litanies of Faith: Autopass AoF and Hymn
Zealot gives unit Fearless and Hatred
The Emperor Protects (reroll armour and inv).
The Righteousness of the Emperor (reroll To Wound)
Any that are left do The Emperor's Strength (3 S3 Ap2 attacks (4 on charge or Smash for 2 S6 Ap2 attacks)

Uriah Jacobus:
If Warlord Indomitable Belief: Shield of Faith 5+
The Emperor's Strength for 4 S3 Ap2 attacks (or 5 on charge or 2 S6 Ap2 attacks, 3 on charge)
Banner gives Counter-attack

Saint Celestine:
If Warlord Beacon of Faith: 12" AoF and Hymns on Ld10
Hit and Run

So I could have a unit that has:
Fearless
Hatred
Counter Attack
Hit and Run
Reroll armour and Inv saves
Reroll to wound
3+ 5++(If Uriah Warlord) on all Battle Sisters
Auto passes all AoF or Hymn tests with a Priest that has Litanies of Faith.


----------



## Shandathe

Well, he asked for a correction. Here it is. The Priest only gets to use a War Hymn in a Fight sub-phase (ie. once his unit has entered Close Combat). 

That rather limits the Death Star if the opponent isn't kind enough to leave you units to chew on or has a couple Battle Cannons, and to be honest... normal Battle Sisters aren't that hot in CC, even when there's 20 of them.


----------



## Bodo1260

This is awful.
Seraphim lose their gunslinger
Repentia lose FNP
Penitent engines lose thier extra attacks from unsaved wounds.
I cant find anything in this codex to give me hope at all.


----------



## Shandathe

@Bodo1260, Gunslinger is gained automatically nowadays when a model has two pistols as per page 52 BRB. 
Through three Codices, Repentia have never ever worked. They're actually closer to playable than ever before. But yeah, they still don't work.
Penitent Engines lose extra attacks but in my experience rarely managed to connect in the first place, serving more as big magnets for incoming fire. They've always been more fragile than Killa Kans that are half their cost with a CC focus that effectively dooms them.

In short, we've not really lost much there. However, they've been swinging that nerf bat pretty wildly, and the Dominion change in particular is painful.

Stuff that gives hope: Seraphim really don't notice their nerf. Battle Sister Squads are improved. Priests are far cheaper. Battle Conclaves now come in high numbers. Exorcists are cheaper - maybe we'll be allowed to field a squadron next time around. Canonesses can be made to work, and the Command Squad is a good option now. Immo spam is cheap enough to be semi-back.


----------



## tu_shan82

Shandathe said:


> @Bodo1260, Gunslinger is gained automatically nowadays when a model has two pistols as per page 52 BRB.


I don't have my BRB handy. Does thta mean I could by a SM Vanguard veteran a pair of plasma pistols or grav pistols and gets to fire both?


----------



## revilo44

Is it just my book or is there no Confessor in the HQ army section anymore


----------



## Shandathe

tu_shan82 said:


> I don't have my BRB handy. Does thta mean I could by a SM Vanguard veteran a pair of plasma pistols or grav pistols and gets to fire both?


Correct. He may replace his bolt pistol AND his chainsword both. It's expensive, but might be worth it if you can protect him  You can also just ditch the Chainsword for another pistol - firing a Bolt Pistol and a Plasma pistol is still firing two pistols.


----------



## Shandathe

revilo44 said:


> Is it just my book or is there no Confessor in the HQ army section anymore


Nope, you're seeing it the same as the rest of us. There's a leftover bit of fluff for Kyrinov attached to Uriah Jacobus' entry, but there's no rules for him anywhere.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I could do a Frateris Militia army so I could finally use some of these, despite the price I still like the models, I like the old school aspect of them.


----------



## Mokuren

GW's stocks must have had a whole lot of unsold priests because they got buffed to hell and back.

Pity the rest of the army got dumped on. Power weapons at 15 points per model? Thank you for showing me the error of my ways, not only 6th ed made you lose if you invested even as much as one point in CC units, now I won't even bother getting power weapons.

Acts of faith got nerfed. It was bad before but now "You have to really think when to use them" boils down to "All of your units are suicide bombers". Canoness' act got nerfed horrendously, she is even more useless than before. Martyrdom sucks, her options cost more and they're still trying to push the Condemnor Bolter, which is still the laughingstock of the armoury despite the point reduction, since now it only fires _once per game_. As if it wasn't useless enough!

Repentia are a joke, they clearly don't want you to play them. Even if you stick them in a vehicle, they can't assault out of it, and your 3+ feel no pain isn't going to do much with your T3, single wound models that cost as much as a space marine, don't shoot, have no armour and only work in close combat without assault vehicle. Oh, except they will die against guardsmen even if they DO get to charge.

The good thing is that Immolators get the twin-linked multi-melta for free, which means everyone and their dog will now play that variant and save 20 points per vehicle, which is the only way to play them because seriously, between a twin-linked heavy flamer that can't shoot if you move more than 6" and a twin-linked multi-melta at the same price, what are you going to pick? Be honest.

Penitent engines got a 5 points discount. Meh. Still the frailest walker in the game. Might feel like less of a waste now but they're still pretty bad, also because they got nerfed horribly, so even if they do reach CC, you wish they costed 5 points more if nothing to have them do something more.

The exorcist got a well-needed 10 points discount. Which is fine. Doesn't save a codex.

So this entire codex was made to push priests because they have too many in stock and don't know how to get rid of them. Woohoo. Even with them, though, sisters still suck in CC but at least they get to be pretty good tarpits.

From my extremely biased 5 minutes opinion, the only list we'll ever see being played is 6 troops of minimum size with 6 dedicated immolators with multi-meltas, Uriah Jacobus stuffed somewhere and the rest of the points filled up however you like. It's really a no-brainer.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

So do you think they'll be a good ally force then?


----------



## Shandathe

@Mokuren, for the power weapons... They've copied and pasted all the weapon prices from Codex: Space Marines. Never mind the fact that while a Melta is a Melta, a Power Weapon on a WS4/T4 Space Marine is a completely different proposition from a Power Weapon on a WS3/T3 Sister of Battle.

Condemnor not only fires just once a game, it's also ridiculously situational - a combi-plasma or combi-flamer you'll generally find a good target for. Psykers are decidedly more rare breed of target.

Repentia... If you get them into CC they might be decent, and you can pick off vehicles with them if your opponent is a moron. The Act of Faith is completely useless though. I've no idea how they forgot about Overwatch, but having only the 6+ Invul save means they die if an enemy shoots them so much as a filthy look.

Immos are indeed only likely to come in MM versions, with a HF or two throw into the mix because they might manage something due to the enemy targeting the bigger problems.

PEs much like Repentia haven't worked for three codices now.

Priests have been buffed and their role STILL doesn't work with a normal setup. I'm half tempted to see if I can build a CC-focused force, though. 6 minimum size BS Squads in MM Immys with a couple Exorcists, some Seraphim, and the rest just filled up with Battle Conclaves...


----------



## Shandathe

Words_of_Truth said:


> So do you think they'll be a good ally force then?


It does work as an Allied force pretty well I think. Stick to the proven units. Grab Celestine for the HQ, Battle Sisters to fill the Troops slot (really, they do it well. Still among the best Troops in the game). The units that really make it worth it are a squad of Seraphim as Celestine's bodyguard, and maybe an Exorcist because it's nearly always useful.


----------



## Loli

This won't really be reviving my army at large. I think I'll continue to keep my Sisters in 1000pt and less games. 

I don't mind it all that much, the faith points change makes me sad, simply because in the Repentia case, if they had their act of faith as a default they would be sooo much better it's unreal. Giving the a transport is nice but without an assault ramp I still wouldn't take either. Plus having them as one use, yeah you could argue it encourages more tactical use but to me it's total bull. 

PEs make me incredibly sad, love the models but I may opt for something else though a swarm of arcoflagents in front may have some merit for them, at least giving a cover save. 

The Cannoness is appealing now, since before Uriah and Celestine were just THAT good, I still think Uriah is great but Canoness is a decent option if yo don't fancy Uriah or Celestine. 

Priests ate VERY appealing, really do fancy going with 9 Sisters + Priest for my troops.


----------



## Mokuren

Words_of_Truth said:


> So do you think they'll be a good ally force then?


Yes, they're great allies, but they don't have legs to stand on their own. Start collecting something else if you don't already, or get 10 sisters and two immolators, you will hardly ever field more than these even with allies.



Shandathe said:


> @Mokuren, for the power weapons... They've copied and pasted all the weapon prices from Codex: Space Marines. Never mind the fact that while a Melta is a Melta, a Power Weapon on a WS4/T4 Space Marine is a completely different proposition from a Power Weapon on a WS3/T3 Sister of Battle.


And, like I said, this is a fucking terrible shitstain on a Codex that's already mediocre at the very best.



Shandathe said:


> Condemnor not only fires just once a game, it's also ridiculously situational - a combi-plasma or combi-flamer you'll generally find a good target for. Psykers are decidedly more rare breed of target.


I seriously have no idea what went through their heads. I honestly believe that people at GW have Fantasy and 40K switched, they think that 40K psykers are uber-powerful all-mighty specimen that win or lose games on their own. That's lvl 4 wizards in Fantasy. A lvl 3 psyker in 40K is a waste of 75 to 100 points, plus the model cost, which is usually pretty frail as well.



Shandathe said:


> Repentia... If you get them into CC they might be decent, and you can pick off vehicles with them if your opponent is a moron. The Act of Faith is completely useless though. I've no idea how they forgot about Overwatch, but having only the 6+ Invul save means they die if an enemy shoots them so much as a filthy look.


No, even if you get them into CC, they'll be slaughtered by guardsmen, thanks to their initiative 1 attacks. Heck, they'll get beaten up in CC by friggin' Fire Warriors. This is supposed to be our dedicated CC unit? And they get beaten up by _Fire Warriors_?

And no, they're no tank hunters. How are they even going to get close to a vehicle and somehow not shot to death in the obligatory turn in which they will disembark from their non-assault transport, assuming it wasn't blown up in the first place and they didn't all die in the following explosion? A unit that only works if my opponent does everything in their power to lose can't be a good unit.



Shandathe said:


> Priests have been buffed and their role STILL doesn't work with a normal setup. I'm half tempted to see if I can build a CC-focused force, though. 6 minimum size BS Squads in MM Immys with a couple Exorcists, some Seraphim, and the rest just filled up with Battle Conclaves...


Priests are Zealots, which not only means that as long as you have one in a unit, your Canoness' act of faith is even more of a joke, but they make said unit Fearless, therefore making a good chunk of our precious and expensive Relics practically moot.

Yes, GW wanted to sell priests, we know how this works, it was exactly the same with St. Celestine in the WDdex: it was shameless, it was blatant, it was painful, it's repeating all over again.

On the bright side, for 25 points I can now make my Imperial Guard infantry blobs fearless and, in case they get assaulted, they have hatred and if I'm lucky I can get them to reroll armour (assuming they still get it) or to-wound rolls.

All for 25 points.

How many priest minis do they have at GW's? They must number in the tens of thousands!


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Mokuren said:


> Yes, they're great allies, but they don't have legs to stand on their own. Start collecting something else if you don't already, or get 10 sisters and two immolators, you will hardly ever field more than these even with allies.


I was thinking maybe Imperial Guard, maybe fashion them like Frateris Militia or something, converted out of Empire Flagellants.


----------



## Shandathe

Mokuren said:


> How many priest minis do they have at GW's? They must number in the tens of thousands!


I'm not sure, but it's a lot and I'm betting they've got a couple boxes full of Arco-Flagellants as well


----------



## tu_shan82

Shandathe said:


> Correct. He may replace his bolt pistol AND his chainsword both. It's expensive, but might be worth it if you can protect him  You can also just ditch the Chainsword for another pistol - firing a Bolt Pistol and a Plasma pistol is still firing two pistols.


Really when you think about it like that, the only sensible option is to replace the chainsword instead of the bolt pistol if you do decide go to with either a grav pistol or plasma pistol, that way you get an extra shot AND you still get a bonus attack for having two close combat weapons.


----------



## iamtheeviltwin

Shandathe said:


> @Mokuren, for the power weapons... They've copied and pasted all the weapon prices from Codex: Space Marines. Never mind the fact that while a Melta is a Melta, a Power Weapon on a WS4/T4 Space Marine is a completely different proposition from a Power Weapon on a WS3/T3 Sister of Battle.


Not just Space Marines, but a power weapon is pretty much 15pt cost across the board in 6ed (see codex: elder for example)



tu_shan82 said:


> Really when you think about it like that, the only sensible option is to replace the chainsword instead of the bolt pistol if you do decide go to with either a grav pistol or plasma pistol, that way you get an extra shot AND you still get a bonus attack for having two close combat weapons.


I have liked this setup for assault Sgts (and vanguard), since the unit's effective shooting range is only 12" anyway and it gives me another AP2 shot in the unit.


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> @Zion, some notes on your notes as I go through them:
> 
> *Relics:*
> Blade of Admonition is actually a copy - paste of the old Blessed Weapon, except we're only offered a Sword version. It's pretty good from what I remember, served me faithfully in multiple editions. _It's alright. I mean we are talking about what is basically a relic blade that's master crafted. And our only AP2 CCW is 30 points._
> Mace of Valaan - Kyrinov is an even more useless model. He's not in the Codex anymore  _I know he's not in the codex, but you can use him as a preacher if you want to bring that Mace._
> 
> *Wargear*
> Eviscerator access is actually significantly wider than it was before. Every Sister Superior has access to Melee Weapons - EXCEPT for the Seraphim Superior you named as having it. But yeah, 30 points :nono: _Check again, there is an annotation that says "Canoness, Seraphim Superior and Ecclesiarchy Priest only"_
> 
> *Dedicated Transports*
> The Immo is a C&P of the SM Razorback with a single different weapon option now. Immo effectively went down 10 points but paid for the 6+ Inv save. _No, we went down 5. We were 65 now we're 60. The Multi-melta one is the only one that got cheaper._
> 
> *Elites*
> Repentia - yeah no, their FNP doesn't IMPROVE with their Act. They don't normally HAVE it anymore. They'll pretty much die if an enemy so much as shoots them a filthy look. The general uselessness of Repentia may well be continuing for their third Codex in a row._You're right on this on, that's my mistake, I'll fix it._


Replies in _yellow_ because it's too early to muck with tags.


----------



## Shandathe

If I find myself in need of AP2 CCWs, I've probably aimed the Exorcists and meltas at the wrong targets. :grin: My main problem with the Canoness is that she still lacks a Jump Pack option, so that Blade of Admonition is going to waste as you can't really pick your fights.

For Eviscerators, having checked, interestingly, my copy says:
* Canoness and Ministorum Priest only.

So which it ends up being might still be up in the air. It's apparently still being edited... which might also explain some of the typos.

Regarding my note on the Immolator, much like the Rhino it's 5 points more than the SM Razorback, which it effectively equals. The only real difference is the Shield of Faith. So 10 points down to equal the Razorback price, and 5 points added back in for the SoF. They've copied Codex: Space Marines quite (too) enthusiastically for prices.


----------



## Zion

@Shandathe, which codex do you have? I have the iPad version.


----------



## Shandathe

Zion said:


> @Shandathe, which codex do you have? I have the iPad version.


ePub here.


----------



## Shandathe

iamtheeviltwin said:


> Not just Space Marines, but a power weapon is pretty much 15pt cost across the board in 6ed (see codex: elder for example)


Thank you notification message... I'm going to have to point out that the Eldar who get Power Weapons are all WS4 or higher. Autarch, WS6. Dire Avenger Exarch, WS4. Howling Banshees, WS4 Power Swords with an Eldar thrown in free for every purchase :laugh:


----------



## Suijin

I have epub and can confirm the * on eviscerators only on Priests and Canonesses.

A 15 point power weapon is OK on Marines. etc., but I agree is pretty shit on sisters especially with WS3, S3, T3, I3, ouch. You have to really want that power axe.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Any decent lore additions? I read the wargaming report and it mentioned some but I was wondering whether there's any one could provide some more detail?


----------



## Shandathe

Some small additions - the 6 Orders militant gain a bit more definition. There's some nice historical notes, some of which we haven't seen before, or which offer a different perspective, but it's a short section. 

The units have small bits of fluff, but there's nothing new there... Well, I think Celestine is officially alive again. Or maybe just less officially dead? :search:

The descriptions on the Relics are actually new, and personally, I like the quotes they sprinkled throughout the thing, even though most are - again - ones we've seen before.



> "Retreat? I have a score of the Emperor’s finest Battle Sisters at my command and you think a few hundred alien savages are cause to turn our back and flee? Let the enemy come, they shall find neither our resolve nor our aim wavering." - Sister Superior Lacena, Order of Our Martyred Lady


Overall, don't buy this one for fluff.


----------



## Majere613

A few things.
The power weapon cost is to be expected. For one thing, if you give a Power Maul to a Priest and get The Emperor's Strength, that little guy is S5 AP2, or can Smash at S8, making him quite nasty.
Repentia are certainly still a bit dodgy, but improve with Jacobus if he's the Warlord, gaining 5++ which he can make re-rollable.
The condemnor is being called a meta-breaker. It causes Perils on a unit that it hits, meaning two shots from them kill all the Heralds in a Screamerstar. It also works on models with Psychic Pilot, making for a potential shock for Grey Knight tanks (serves 'em right)
You can stack Priests in one unit, and get a Conclave for each Priest. You can stick Crusaders at the front and give them a re-roll on their 3++.
Dominions got a lot better with the option for 4 specials in a 5-strong squad, but their Act is pointless with flamers.
The Canoness can now get an Eviscerator, a Rosarius, and Eternal Warrior and come in at the same cost as Celestine. That's certainly better than her previous incarnation, though whether S6 AP2 is worth losing the benefits of the Saint is debatable.
I think Jacobus is the stand-out, though. An extra Act of Faith, Fearless and Counter-attack in a 12" bubble, decent melee if he uses Strength adds up to a lot for not many points. A 20-strong squad with Simulacrum, Jacobus, a Canoness with Litanies of Faith and several Priests is now in death-star territory, which is certainly novel.


----------



## Creon

This codex hit a few things hard with the nerf bat, did some odd things, and did some nice things, I have to disagree about the haters.

Celestine got nerfed. That everyone had to see coming. Only one "we'll be back" a game. But, she's fully healed and more likely to succeed.

Repentia: Give up and go home. No chance of ever delivering to HTH. Drop.

Odd things: taking confessors away. mixing stuff up. I don't mind two acts of faith a game. Just makes a simulacrum more important. 

Good things = All the warlord trains are Great. I like them. And a more consistent codex. I'm going to play a full sisters list, and enjoy it.


----------



## Mokuren

Creon said:


> Good things = All the warlord trains are Great. I like them. And a more consistent codex. I'm going to play a full sisters list, and enjoy it.


A canoness with Rage is "great"? I agree the amount of good warlord traits is higher than the amount of absolute shit ones, but "They're all great" is way too starry-eyed fanboy-squeal level of optimism, and by "optimism" I mean "huge pieces of ham stuck on the eyes".

Gaining Rage on a canoness is shit. Gaining Fear on a canoness is still shit because it doesn't work against anyone you're going to need it against, and you're most likely going to win against those you don't need it against in any case, assuming it ever boils down to a close combat, which you're supposed to avoid in the first place with sisters. Except the best boosts the codex got are in the CC department, which 6e nerfed to hell and back with quite the abandon.

Oh, and 15 points might be the 6e standard, but even an Eldar guardian with a power weapon is more useful than a veteran superior with a power weapon: WS4 I4 means he's most likely going to _have a chance_ to use it when he needs it, and it only gets better the more "elite" the unit is, not to mention an Autarch is better than a Canoness in practically everything and his upgrades leave her in the dust extremely quickly.

Also, as a friend of mine noted while laughing his ass off at my nerfs, even Chaos, one of the worst 6e codexes, gets a +2S AP2 weapon for 5 points more than the Blade of Admonition, except it also grants +1d6 attacks and is wielded by a model that is way stronger than a canoness in the first place. It's not nice when a dedicated close combat relic pales in comparison to the relics in other armies for the same price range, and that's even before accounting for the weaker model that gets to wield it.


----------



## Shandathe

Majere613 said:


> The power weapon cost is to be expected. For one thing, if you give a Power Maul to a Priest and get The Emperor's Strength, that little guy is S5 AP2, or can Smash at S8, making him quite nasty.


And one model who MIGHT do something is a lousy thing to balance the prices for everyone else around. Not that they did, as noted before they just straight up copied and pasted prices from Codex: Space Marines. 



Majere613 said:


> Repentia are certainly still a bit dodgy, but improve with Jacobus if he's the Warlord, gaining 5++ which he can make re-rollable.


No, we left Dodgytown two Codices ago. They're unusable for the third in a row. Due to lack of Assault Ramps they'll be open to at least one turn of enemy fire and then still need to get through Overwatch, THEN need to survive being at Initiative one (Act does help there, but there's not going to be many of them left at this point).



Majere613 said:


> The condemnor is being called a meta-breaker. It causes Perils on a unit that it hits, meaning two shots from them kill all the Heralds in a Screamerstar. It also works on models with Psychic Pilot, making for a potential shock for Grey Knight tanks (serves 'em right)


Perils of the Warp only does a single Wound, and if you're fighting an army with a lot of Psykers, that's normally still kinda meh. For an all-comers list, it's far too situational - Psykers aren't anywhere near as bad as mages in WFB to begin with, and all Sisters have Adamantium Will now to make them even easier to tackle. 



Majere613 said:


> You can stack Priests in one unit, and get a Conclave for each Priest. You can stick Crusaders at the front and give them a re-roll on their 3++.


... once they're in CC. It's a very important qualification in the current shooty environment. Priests are good for their cost, but there are gradations.



Majere613 said:


> Dominions got a lot better with the option for 4 specials in a 5-strong squad, but their Act is pointless with flamers.


Twin-Linked was great. Ignores Cover is situational, and pretty bad overall. You can toss more Specials in there, which keep them in the game, but you're paying for those. I'd not call it an improvement overall. About balances out.



Majere613 said:


> The Canoness can now get an Eviscerator, a Rosarius, and Eternal Warrior and come in at the same cost as Celestine. That's certainly better than her previous incarnation, though whether S6 AP2 is worth losing the benefits of the Saint is debatable.


If she could have a Jump Pack to get her the mobility she needs to fully use it, it probably would be. As it is, no - though the Command Squad may make it worth it depending on build.



Majere613 said:


> I think Jacobus is the stand-out, though. An extra Act of Faith, Fearless and Counter-attack in a 12" bubble, decent melee if he uses Strength adds up to a lot for not many points. A 20-strong squad with Simulacrum, Jacobus, a Canoness with Litanies of Faith and several Priests is now in death-star territory, which is certainly novel.


It's a death-star once it is IN CLOSE COMBAT. With War Hymns stacking up in the Fight Sub-Phase (which is the ONLY time they work), things look pretty good - but a Battle Cannon shot or two from afar will ruin your day. Admittedly it's a cheap enough death-star that it won't ruin your game (and it will attract fire from other things). Note the Canoness doesn't really have a role in this unit - you can put the Litanies on a Priest.


----------



## Zion

Moving away from how good or bad the book is (for a minute or two at least), I spotted some stuff in the iPad Glossary I thought was worth noting: http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/10/codex-adepta-sororitas-speculations.html

Anyone wanna make their own theories?


----------



## Mokuren

Shandathe said:


> Twin-Linked was great. Ignores Cover is situational, and pretty bad overall. You can toss more Specials in there, which keep them in the game, but you're paying for those. I'd not call it an improvement overall. About balances out.


Dominion got better, meaning you're no longer forced to take 10 to have an useful amount of special weapons for a Fast Attack unit. They're supposed to be specialists, and I still have no idea why they couldn't take 4 special weapons in a squad of 5 in the previous WDdex. It's a good thing they got un-nerfed, pity that their act of faith _did_ get nerfed. What is it going to be useful against? Skimmers? Those thing that move 12" and shoot with everything they have at your extremely frail units and you have no chance of catching up with, ever, not to mention will never be in melta range? Well, that or jetbikes or troops inside ruins or behind aegis lines. Except at that point you're going to shoot infantry to death with meltas, which is a waste unless they're terminators or something, because bolters are AP5 and if you want cheap and effective cover-ignoring AP5 shots you can get them 4 flamers, and they work more than once per game.

Had they heavy bolters with ignore cover it would be a wildly different thing, but with their current load out ad storm bolters getting a cost _increase_ (Surely everyone was whining that the _mighty and powerful_ storm bolter was too cheap at 3 points!) I don't see them actually taking advantage of their Ignore cover. Except for meltas against jetbikes, that's it, only Eldar should fear the new dominions... Except they don't, because they'll always be out of range.



Shandathe said:


> It's a death-star once it is IN CLOSE COMBAT. With War Hymns stacking up in the Fight Sub-Phase (which is the ONLY time they work), things look pretty good - but a Battle Cannon shot or two from afar will ruin your day. Admittedly it's a cheap enough death-star that it won't ruin your game (and it will attract fire from other things). Note the Canoness doesn't really have a role in this unit - you can put the Litanies on a Priest.


Again people, both in and out of the studio, keep judging 40K units based on Fantasy meta. Fantasy death stars are cheap cheese because, due to retarded rules on ranks and plenty of other things, there's very little you can do about it. In 40K? Between the fact that such a huge unit will _always_ be moving and charging through difficult terrain and therefore will _always_ roll 3d6 discarding highest for charge distance, with all the implications thereof, including extra shooting, and considering 40K shooting is a lot easier and with a lot of very high strength weapons even in basic units... Well, yeah.

And again, we're talking "cheap", but it's still about 300 points that _will_ be ruined by a much cheaper unit, about a third of its cost, sitting on the other edge of the table and yawning as it murders your death star undisturbed, because it's a death star that moves up to 6" and charges 3d6" discarding the highest, and that either shoots or runs or charges. And even then, assuming it reaches CC, it's going to be tarpit at best against a codex that has an actual, real, working, effective CC unit.



Zion said:


> Moving away from how good or bad the book is (for a minute or two at least), I spotted some stuff in the iPad Glossary I thought was worth noting: http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/10/codex-adepta-sororitas-speculations.html
> 
> Anyone wanna make their own theories?


Executive meddling to make the codex suck so they're entitled to squat them? Executive meddling to sell priests and immolators and fuck everything else?

I think it's a bit of both, personally. Some changes are way too stupid to be explained otherwise. It's like nobody has played 40K in a while and they all think it's Fantasy. I guess they really are working on Fantasy 9th edition, between Chaos Daemons and the _almighty_ Condemnor bolter turned into a combi-weapon it's clear they were thinking Fantasy while working on 40K.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Don't forget forge stuff for Sisters, like http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Navy/AVENGER_STRIKE_FIGHTER.html


----------



## MidnightSun

What is the act of faith for Dominion Squads? Because I see a lot of people saying that Ignores Cover is bad. Is it ignore Jink or ignore Stealth or what?

Midnigth


----------



## Shandathe

@MidnightSun It's just plain Ignore Cover, like every Flamer already has.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

You guys need one of these:










They are beastly.


----------



## Zion

Mokuren said:


> Executive meddling to make the codex suck so they're entitled to squat them? Executive meddling to sell priests and immolators and fuck everything else?
> 
> I think it's a bit of both, personally. Some changes are way too stupid to be explained otherwise. It's like nobody has played 40K in a while and they all think it's Fantasy. I guess they really are working on Fantasy 9th edition, between Chaos Daemons and the _almighty_ Condemnor bolter turned into a combi-weapon it's clear they were thinking Fantasy while working on 40K.


Immolator kits sold regardless because they're also really nice Rhino kits. And Priests have been a mainstay of the codex since 2nd, they're just good again finally.

And the Condemer Boltgun has always been a combi-weapon. I don't know where this idea of it not being on comes from.

Honestly I don't see executive meddling to kill the army here, and I think that's ascribing maliciousness where there is none, but that's just me.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

So on the issue of keeping in range with people, has anyone considered the aquila lander, it's a fast attack option. Then again it doesn't appear to be sold any more, so why it's in the aeronautica book..


----------



## Zion

Words_of_Truth said:


> So on the issue of keeping in range with people, has anyone considered the aquila lander, it's a fast attack option. Then again it doesn't appear to be sold any more, so why it's in the aeronautica book..


It was in the book before they stopped selling it. It's alright. The Avenger is a better AA option honestly though.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Yeah, I was thinking transport options though, the Aquilia is sturdier and can carry 7 occupants.


----------



## Zion

Words_of_Truth said:


> Yeah, I was thinking transport options though, the Aquilia is sturdier and can carry 7 occupants.


It's not an assualt vehicle though which is what the army really wants if it takes a flyer like that.


----------



## Shandathe

I dunno. Dropping off a squad of Retributors with Heavy Flamers in the right location would work pretty well, no assaulting necessary.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

I really don't get this army, the fluff behind it is cool but I don't get the general tactics of it, is it a shooting force, is it a melee force, what does it specialise at? From what I've read it's just seems to be torn between the two, average at both but not especially good overall.


----------



## SilverTabby

Sisters are a shooting army, but because it excels at 12" it gets charged quite a lot, so there are some CC options to help them not die so quickly. But if you're being charged, you're usually in a bad situation.

My take on the army always differed from others' though - I went hoard mostly, with so much bolterfire that most things couldn't get through. Rhinos were for other people :wink:


----------



## Majere613

Words_of_Truth said:


> I really don't get this army, the fluff behind it is cool but I don't get the general tactics of it, is it a shooting force, is it a melee force, what does it specialise at? From what I've read it's just seems to be torn between the two, average at both but not especially good overall.


Sisters excel at mid to short-range shooting. Because they're cheaper per model than Marines and can get two Special weapons, you can lay a lot of fire down after hopping out of a transport, or use Rhinos as mobile bunkers and fire two meltas or flamers out of them. The ideal is to get several units within 12" of an enemy at once, and wipe them out in one round of shooting. Personally, I like to use Repressors as the front-line transport, with squads in Rhinos hiding behind them.

Exorcists and Scouting Immolators with Dominions in allow you to threaten more distant targets. Most players who have faced Sisters will be very nervous of keeping their Terminators or other tough units alive, with the amount of AP1 and AP2 shooting Sisters get.

Assault is the biggest weakness of the army. The new codex helps with this, but I suspect a lot of players will prefer to go MSU with some small 'speedbump' units of Sisters whose job it is to receive the assault and die that turn. Even so, with Power Armour and access to Jump Packs and WS4 elites, Sisters can assault most other shooting armies with some success, like Guard or Tau, though usually more to tie up a unit and stop it shooting than to kill it outright.


----------



## Shandathe

It's actually an interesting question nowadays. Under normal circumstances, Sisters excel at short-range shooting. BS4 all around with Flamers, Meltas, and bolters to round things out, with the excellent Exorcist behind it all to annihilate what they can't handle themselves. Getting nearby and Shooting is plan A.

While very much Plan B, Sisters also have a decent enough statline and armour to take on some of the things that could outshoot them in CC (Tau FWs for instance) - note that both Meltaguns and Flamers are Assault weapons, and every Sister has a Bolt Pistol in addition to her bolter, so Plan B still involves Shooting things first as well to improve the odds. Charging is usually better than being charged. One needs to know what they're doing to make this work out, and GW *isn't helping* by making it harder to pick up a PW at a - for a WS3 Sister Superior - reasonable price.

Sadly, GW rarely seems to be playing the same game we are.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Thanks for the great explainations 

The more you explain them the more you make them sound like the way I use my marines, which usually is squads in rhinos or razorbacks jumping out and rapid firing into units. That's a good thing though since if I'm going to pair them with guard I'll know how to use at least half the army.


----------



## locustgate

Shandathe said:


> outshoot them in CC (Tau FWs for instance)


Which is why I always have my FW paired with a APC, best case scenario move the tank to intercept, worse case get the hell out of there.

P.S. do not try with meltas


----------



## Shandathe

locustgate said:


> Which is why I always have my FW paired with a APC, best case scenario move the tank to intercept, worse case get the hell out of there.
> 
> P.S. do not try with meltas


Sisters without Meltas?

...

Does not compute.

( And there's always Krak grenades :grin: )


----------



## MidnightSun

Shandathe said:


> @MidnightSun It's just plain Ignore Cover, like every Flamer already has.


How... weird, you usually only get boo-boos like that in FW books. Like the following:



Words_of_Truth said:


> Yeah, I was thinking transport options though, the Aquilia is sturdier and can carry 7 occupants.


And cannot ever drop it's passengers, so it's great for death row prisoners that are so dangerous you never want them to touch the ground again. For a military unit, not so much. Don't you just love Forge World?

Midnight


----------



## Words_of_Truth

How come it can't drop them? It can hover, or doesn't that matter, not used to air craft never used them.


----------



## Shandathe

MidnightSun said:


> How... weird, you usually only get boo-boos like that in FW books.


It's not a complete boo-boo as a Dominion squad could be armed with Storm Bolters or Meltaguns as well (or just their normal Bolters). Of course, nobody used Storm Bolters before and the cost was INcreased. Meltaguns are fair though you normally want to shoot those Meltaguns at vehicles - which are rarely in cover when you're hunting them with Dominions.

So the use of the Dominion Act of Faith is pretty much limited to edge cases like using Meltaguns on Eldar vehicles with holofields or turning them on infantry as the target you WANTED to use them on just accidentally exploded.


----------



## Mokuren

Zion said:


> Immolator kits sold regardless because they're also really nice Rhino kits. And Priests have been a mainstay of the codex since 2nd, they're just good again finally.


Yes, like how St. Celestine was always there except she suddenly dropped to half price with the WDdex and got boosted on top of that.

Like I said, sudden boosts and point cost drops to push models that no one used before, because the old priests were actively harmful to your own army. We've seen this already in pretty much every codex ever released, let's not pretend they're not doing it.



Zion said:


> And the Condemer Boltgun has always been a combi-weapon. I don't know where this idea of it not being on comes from.


Oh wow I always missed that part. Not that I ever took one.

Wow. Just wow. And it costed 15 points before? _WOW_.



Zion said:


> Honestly I don't see executive meddling to kill the army here, and I think that's ascribing maliciousness where there is none, but that's just me.


Yes, it's most likely maliciousness, but damn this codex really disappointed me. I wasn't expecting much to begin with because, again, it was going to miss what it needed most direly: new models and a revamp of the old model line.

But still, it shows that they have absolutely no idea what to do with the army, there is no internal consistency whatsoever, and that they're playing an entirely different game than the current edition of 40K. I remain that they're so deep in Fantasy 9th that they forgot how 40K works.


----------



## MidnightSun

Ignores Cover Meltaguns are bad now?

What fresh hell is this? Up is down, left is right, daytime TV is enriching!

Midnight


----------



## Mokuren

MidnightSun said:


> Ignores Cover Meltaguns are bad now?


"Ignores cover once per game assuming you don't fail a LD 8 test or maybe 9 if you spent 10 extra points" with all the weapons your 5-10 unit is equipping. And your options are bolters, storm bolters, flamers and meltaguns.

Considering their previous power was "Reroll to-hit, not just once per game although with about 50% chance", which is far less situational, yeah, Ignores Cover on Meltaguns is extremely situational for what you're going to use those meltaguns for.

Especially considering that if you want to ignore cover so hard you can just go 4 flamers and save 20 points.


----------



## Shandathe

It was even better than re-roll to hit as Twin-Linked gets you a re-roll to Wound on Flamers as well, which is great for roasting infantry on an objective while Outflanking.


----------



## Mokuren

Shandathe said:


> It was even better than re-roll to hit as Twin-Linked gets you a re-roll to Wound on Flamers as well, which is great for roasting infantry on an objective while Outflanking.


Yes, whereas now you get a once-per-game "bonus" that is completely useless on one of your three special weapon options, which also happens to be quite valid.


----------



## locustgate

Shande
I've seen some people who got a bit to hoped up on promethium and forgot the meltas.



MidnightSun said:


> Ignores Cover Meltaguns are bad now?


Like others said chances are you're going to use a melta to take out a tank, and its not likely the tank will be in cover, being able to reroll Damage to a tank would be far more useful.


Ok so far with the 'dex' I'm disappointed with the lack of fluff, I mean they could of went into a bit more detail (or even mention them at all beyond the units) of the non battle orders.


----------



## SilverTabby

On balance, it seems they've taken out a few things that made units like Dominions *awesome* (and therefore no-brainers to take) but compensated by allowing smaller units with more weapons. You lose twin-linked, but for not much more than the original unit of 10 required to get 4 meltas you can have 8 meltas instead. 

Allowing units of 5 Battle Sisters means gunlines with a Heavy Bolter in each squad becomes more possible. They took our critisisms of Command squads to heart, and there are now combat options. They've lost relentless, but gained more in exchange. 

Personally, this is going to play to my gamestyle sooooo well I'm itching to get my copy. And the downsides - well, I've lived with Sisters downsides so long it no longer bothers me. Play to their strengths, rather than bemoan their weaknesses and try to compensate. *shrugs*


----------



## Words_of_Truth

What do you think from an imperial guard army would compliment sisters or vice versa?


----------



## shanewatts

Words_of_Truth, anti-air (and/or flyers), pie plates, and blob squads all are beneficial to sisters if you want to run them with guard allies. Sisters as allies to guard mostly just bring tons of melta/flamers, which you can run already minus power armor.


----------



## Mokuren

shanewatts said:


> Words_of_Truth, anti-air (and/or flyers), pie plates, and blob squads all are beneficial to sisters if you want to run them with guard allies. Sisters as allies to guard mostly just bring tons of melta/flamers, which you can run already minus power armor.


Don't forget that the new priests allow you to make a guard blob Fearless and with Hatred for less than it would cost to get a commissar, and said priest would also have a 4++ save, which the previous commissar lacks. Stack War Hymns on top of that and you can see just how beneficial we are talking about.



SilverTabby said:


> On balance, it seems they've taken out a few things that made units like Dominions *awesome* (and therefore no-brainers to take) but compensated by allowing smaller units with more weapons. You lose twin-linked, but for not much more than the original unit of 10 required to get 4 meltas you can have 8 meltas instead.
> 
> Allowing units of 5 Battle Sisters means gunlines with a Heavy Bolter in each squad becomes more possible. They took our critisisms of Command squads to heart, and there are now combat options. They've lost relentless, but gained more in exchange.
> 
> Personally, this is going to play to my gamestyle sooooo well I'm itching to get my copy. And the downsides - well, I've lived with Sisters downsides so long it no longer bothers me. Play to their strengths, rather than bemoan their weaknesses and try to compensate. *shrugs*


The problem is that, like I said already, the new codex just switches no-brainers around like a game of three cards in a shady alley. Rhinos were no-brainers before due to cost and squad sizes, including dominions being forced to 10-strong units to have 4 special weapons (unlike the majority of other armies' specialist units, for no good reason). Now Rhinos suck and immolators with twin-linked multi-meltas are the new no-brainers.

Also, due to the number of special and heavy weapons not scaling with unit size, there is no longer any benefit to sister blobs, so gunline armies are of course going to be a lot more popular. However, this just means we got the Chaos treatment: no internal balance, only one valid list, and the farther you stray from it the more you irremediably suck.

Yes, now it makes sense to invest in a command squad, pity that you unlock it with a Canoness, which is your only non-unique HQ available and that only looks viable because she got nerfed _less_ than the other options. I don't miss the Confessor, but damn they managed to _yet again_ reduce the amount of options we have even though we've been working with the exact same model range for almost two decades.

Of course you can still play Sisters to their strength. I'll add more: you can _only_ play Sisters to their strengths, because every other option sucks. Power weapons? Forget about it. Rhinos? You're paying that 6++ out of your nose now and considering a unit of 5 in an immolator with a TL multi-melta now costs 5 points _less_ than the basic unit of 10 in the previous codex, why even bother?

It's just a huge pile of wasted potential, it feels rushed, it feels as if though they have absolutely no idea what to do with the army and it marks once again how it's pointless to get your hopes up for a Sisters revamp that doesn't include a complete revamp of their entire model line.

Which best be coming in the future, because I don't foresee buying anything considering the prices just got up and the models are the absolute oldest in the entire game.


----------



## Zion

The WD Codex didn't give you anything for running blobs either...

Also 40pt Rhinos with a 6++ and Adamantium Will is better than the old 50pt version with no benefits. Yeah, it might a little hi, but we've we've paid more for less.


----------



## Mokuren

Zion said:


> The WD Codex didn't give you anything for running blobs either...


Sure, but you started with a minimum squad of 10, which also meant that adding an IC made the entire squad no longer fit in any transport option in the codex (thankfully a long gone proposition). Nowadays you can get two squads of 5 for 5 less points and get 4 special weapons total, or 2 special and 2 heavy weapons, and heavy flamers halved in cost.

None of the two versions gave anything for running blobs, but this one gives everything for minimum squads and nothing for blobs. Guess what kind of list it benefits?



Zion said:


> Also 40pt Rhinos with a 6++ and Adamantium Will is better than the old 50pt version with no benefits. Yeah, it might a little hi, but we've we've paid more for less.


Be honest, the old 50 point Rhino with nothing came out when that was the standard point cost tag for Rhinos. Sure, it didn't take much for the 35 points standard to come out eventually, but the Witch Hunter codex was in no worse condition than those who were still waiting for an update, including Codex: Space Marines. Except said update never came except very late and in the form of the WDdex, which is a different point entirely.

And even then, for 5 extra points you get a 6++ and a bonus to Deny the Witch rolls, okay, so why did the Immolators get such a dramatic cost cut even though they get the same benefits? Someone in the dev team is playing favourites again.


----------



## Shandathe

Nope. The Immolator is a copy and paste of the Razorback, with the same 5 point surcharge the Rhino has. The only difference is the option of Multi-Meltas, which (again as copy-pasted from SM) are the same cost as Heavy Bolters and Heavy Flamers.

The dramatic cost difference with the WDex is the lowered cost of the HFs it comes with standard. As HBs are the same cost as HFs now, the special ammo was dropped from those.


----------



## MidnightSun

locustgate said:


> Like others said chances are you're going to use a melta to take out a tank, and its not likely the tank will be in cover, being able to reroll Damage to a tank would be far more useful.


Well... yeah, if you could take Tank Hunters, you totally would, but that's not what you're offered. I don't know where the idea of 'Tanks? In cover? That's silly talk' comes from - the two most powerful armies in the meta right now, Eldar and Tau, both have permanent cover saves on their tanks, and often 4+ (not for Melta shots, admittedly, but dealing 33% more damage is REALLY GOOD).

And you need perhaps five infantry sized models to Obscure a Rhino-sized vehicle.

Vehicles are *usually* in cover, if you're playing with a decent amount of terrain, are playing against Eldar, Tau, Necrons or Dark Eldar (three of which are very strong armies found at most tournaments), or you're fighting Imperial Guard, Space Marines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, or Chaos Space Marines and are fighting against Smoke Launchers, or are fighting someone intelligent enough to use their brain cells and bring their own cover, whether through bodies or an Aegis Line.




> *Shooting Vs Vehicles*
> 
> *Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group*
> 
> *Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)*
> 
> -----------------------------
> 
> *Attackers*
> 
> *Attacker Group 1*
> *Shots:* 4
> *Hit Chance:* 88.89%
> *Hits:* 3.556
> *Glancing Chance:* 8.33%
> *Penetration Chance:* 83.33%
> *Glancing Saves:* 0.099
> *Penetration Saves:* 0.988
> *Glancing Hits:* 0.198
> *Penetration Hits:* 1.975
> *Shaken:* 0.428
> *Stunned:* 0.362
> *Weapon Destroyed:* 0.362
> *Immobilized:* 0.362
> *Wrecked:* 0.329
> *Explodes:* 0.329
> *Options:* Reroll Hit, 2d6
> 
> -----------------------------
> 
> *Defenders*
> 
> *Defender Group*
> *Hits:* 3.556
> *Glancing Saves:* 0.099
> *Penetration Saves:* 0.988
> *Glancing Hits:* 0.198
> *Penetration Hits:* 1.975
> *Results*
> *Shaken:* 0.428
> *Stunned:* 0.362
> *Weapon Destroyed:* 0.362
> *Immobilized:* 0.362
> *Wrecked:* 0.329
> *Explodes:* 0.329
> 
> 
> -----------------------------
> Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)





> *Shooting Vs Vehicles*
> 
> *Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group*
> 
> *Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)*
> 
> -----------------------------
> 
> *Attackers*
> 
> *Attacker Group 1*
> *Shots:* 4
> *Hit Chance:* 66.67%
> *Hits:* 2.667
> *Glancing Chance:* 8.33%
> *Penetration Chance:* 83.33%
> *Glancing Hits:* 0.222
> *Penetration Hits:* 2.222
> *Shaken:* 0.481
> *Stunned:* 0.407
> *Weapon Destroyed:* 0.407
> *Immobilized:* 0.407
> *Wrecked:* 0.37
> *Explodes:* 0.37
> *Options:* 2d6
> 
> -----------------------------
> 
> *Defenders*
> 
> *Defender Group*
> *Hits:* 2.667
> *Glancing Hits:* 0.222
> *Penetration Hits:* 2.222
> *Results*
> *Shaken:* 0.481
> *Stunned:* 0.407
> *Weapon Destroyed:* 0.407
> *Immobilized:* 0.407
> *Wrecked:* 0.37
> *Explodes:* 0.37
> 
> 
> -----------------------------
> Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)


Well will you look at that: you just got BETTER at killing AV12 vehicles, and you even got more reliable to actually use your Act (Ld8 leadership = slightly higher than 50% chance).

Midnight


----------



## Shandathe

Mhmm. Except that's only the one edge case of shooting meltaguns at vehicles with cover. Note this is a Dominion squad. Obscuring a vehicle with 5 infantry models won't work because it will simply step out of its transport on another side.

And it definitely doesn't address the fact that the Act is completely useless when people run Dominions with Flamers. Which is a rather usual way to go about it.


----------



## SilverTabby

Words_of_Truth said:


> What do you think from an imperial guard army would compliment sisters or vice versa?


I use Guardsmen in blobs, and Valkyries / Vendettas. Though I haven't used them in 6th yet, so don't know if my previous tactics would work of putting Sisters in them. I've been concentrating on my 'nids whilst waiting for this dex.



Mokuren said:


> Sure, but you started with a minimum squad of 10, which also meant that adding an IC made the entire squad no longer fit in any transport option in the codex (thankfully a long gone proposition). Nowadays you can get two squads of 5 for 5 less points and get 4 special weapons total, or 2 special and 2 heavy weapons, and heavy flamers halved in cost.
> 
> None of the two versions gave anything for running blobs, but this one gives everything for minimum squads and nothing for blobs. Guess what kind of list it benefits?


One that other armies might want to use as Allies. 

Take 20 Sisters to get 4 special weapons? Nope.
Take 2 squads of 5 sisters, and get 4 special / 2 heavy and 2 special weapons on cheap power armoured girls with access to MM immolators? Yes please. (Can the basic squads take immolators still?)

Let's face it, this list was not produced to get new Sister players. It was written to appease those who already have armies, and make Sisters a viable Ally option. Which they now are - and that will sell models.


----------



## Shandathe

SilverTabby said:


> Take 2 squads of 5 sisters, and get 4 special / 2 heavy and 2 special weapons on cheap power armoured girls with access to MM immolators? Yes please. (Can the basic squads take immolators still?)


Yep. Check the Army Lists section, I've tossed two lists in there with the new Codex - one converted from an old one, with some thoughts as I went, and one where thinking of better days I was seeing how many Immolators I could get in there.

Lots of Immolators, as it turns out.

For Allying, two of those squads you described as Troops, Celestine for your HQ and a squad of Seraphim and you're set.


----------



## Suijin

A 20 blob squad does benefit somewhat from being large:
Any model in a fearless bubble makes the squad fearless.
1 priest can affect many more models reducing his point cost per model.
The only place I would take a power axe on the Superior for a squad.
Extra bodies for the LOS rolls on the ICs.

I'm not really arguing this is a great option though. That is really just a tarpit unit.

As far as the Faith changes and having a better chance at using it successfully rolling LD8 or LD9 by spending +10 points for a single use or spending even more points for a second use vs a standard 50% roll every turn; I certainly wouldn't rate as better. It is probably worse overall, but you can use your ability more reliably I guess, so that is better.

Yeah, the changes do stink on the Dominion flamers, so stay with melta and work from there. Someone was high pricing the Storm bolter upgrade from the bolter at 5 points. That is not even close to being worth it.


----------



## MidnightSun

Shandathe said:


> Mhmm. Except that's only the one edge case of shooting meltaguns at vehicles with cover.


And what else, pray, do you shoot your Meltaguns at?



Shandathe said:


> Note this is a Dominion squad. Obscuring a vehicle with 5 infantry models won't work because it will simply step out of its transport on another side.


And nobody will obscure their tanks with just 5 men, so it's irrelevant anyway. And this is all assuming your opponent has let a T3 Meltagun-armed squad in an AV11 tank get to within 6" of their vehicles, which isn't a good feature of the Dominions, it's a bad feature of your opponent.



Shandathe said:


> And it definitely doesn't address the fact that the Act is completely useless when people run Dominions with Flamers. Which is a rather usual way to go about it.


That's true, but perhaps this will change the way people run them. Now they're better at anti-tank, maybe people will run them with Meltaguns instead.

Midnight


----------



## Shandathe

MidnightSun said:


> And what else, pray, do you shoot your Meltaguns at?


Terminators, Tervigons and other assorted large gribblies, Wraithlords and similar pesky annoyances... Come to think of it, is there any problem that CAN'T be solved with Meltaguns? 




MidnightSun said:


> And nobody will obscure their tanks with just 5 men, so it's irrelevant anyway. And this is all assuming your opponent has let a T3 Meltagun-armed squad in an AV11 tank get to within 6" of their vehicles, which isn't a good feature of the Dominions, it's a bad feature of your opponent.


Yep. Which is why I tend to leave hunting vehicles to the Seraphim and equip my Dominions with Flamers to flush out infantry on objectives. Both of which still works just fine and don't need any fancy schmancy Acts of Faith :grin:


----------



## MidnightSun

Shandathe said:


> Terminators, Tervigons and other assorted large gribblies, Wraithlords and similar pesky annoyances... Come to think of it, is there any problem that CAN'T be solved with Meltaguns?


Green Tide and Tervigons 

Meh, I'm not a Sisters player. Just seemed weird that people are complaining about their Act of Faith being better now.

Midnight


----------



## Shandathe

It's better in some situations. But the Dominion AoF has become situational enough that we get far less use out of it in the end, which makes it worse overall. In the WDex, getting Twin-Linked (even unreliably) was pretty awesome. It boosts both Meltaguns and Flamers and it's always worth having. Ignoring Cover only serves half the guns and then requires an enemy in specific condition to be useful. 

However, though the AoF was nerfed a bit, the base squad is cheaper than before, can grab more Special weapons without adding more members, and you don't HAVE to buy the AoF-related upgrades or use it at all  I probably won't spring for the additional AoF for them even when I do run them with Meltaguns - one use of Ignore Cover is plenty.


----------



## MidnightSun

Shandathe said:


> It's better in some situations. But the Dominion AoF has become situational enough that we get far less use out of it in the end, which makes it worse overall. In the WDex, getting Twin-Linked (even unreliably) was pretty awesome. It boosts both Meltaguns and Flamers and it's always worth having. Ignoring Cover only serves half the guns and then requires an enemy in specific condition to be useful.


However, you should probably be running that weapon loadout most of the time, and enemy vehicles will be in cover most of the time if not all the time (I can only think of Soul Grinders that won't usually be in 5+ cover).



Shandathe said:


> However, though the AoF was nerfed a bit, the base squad is cheaper than before, can grab more Special weapons without adding more members, and you don't HAVE to buy the AoF-related upgrades or use it at all  I probably won't spring for the additional AoF for them even when I do run them with Meltaguns - one use of Ignore Cover is plenty.


One use of Ignore Cover is all you'll ever get anyway - if your opponent is leaving 5 T3 Meltagun-armed models running around his battleline, you've won anyway, so it's not an issue.

Midnight


----------



## Zion

I had a thought: if running Dominions full sized with 4 Flamers you've got 6 Bolters (or 5 Bolters and one Combi-Weapon) that benefit from Ignore Cover. Ignore Cover Bolters aren't bad against things that usually hide heavily in cover to avoid being AP'd (Guard, Nids, Orks, ect). I won't claim it's perfect, but it is a use.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

What about them with stormbolters, that's a lot of shots ignoring cover.


----------



## Shandathe

... I've no idea why enemy vehicles are getting so much Cover in your games. :shok: Admittedly, I tend to do my vehicle hunting with Seraphim anyway. Mobility rules :so_happy:

Running Dominions with Flamers is more generally useful, that hasn't changed. Four normal flamers outperform two twin-linked ones, and between the discounts on base unit and MM Immy it's actually cheaper than it was before :laugh: 

And yes, hunting vehicles with Seraphim and Dominions running around with Flamers means I get no use out of either of their AoFs now. And it's not a big loss, though I may just replace the Dominions with Hand Flamer Seraphim.


----------



## Zion

Words_of_Truth said:


> What about them with stormbolters, that's a lot of shots ignoring cover.


True, but Flamers are the same cost and can hit more models (potentially, based on range and positioning, ect) than a Stormbolter can. I was just saying the Ignores Cover might not be for the Flamers but the other members of the squad instead.


----------



## Zion

Shandathe said:


> ... I've no idea why enemy vehicles are getting so much Cover in your games. :shok: Admittedly, I tend to do my vehicle hunting with Seraphim anyway. Mobility rules :so_happy:


If vehicles aren't getting cover most of the time you might need more terrain. 



Shandathe said:


> Running Dominions with Flamers is more generally useful, that hasn't changed. Four normal flamers outperform two twin-linked ones, and between the discounts on base unit and MM Immy it's actually cheaper than it was before :laugh:


That's also a good point, flamers didn't get worse just because we can't re-roll wounds anymore.



Shandathe said:


> And yes, hunting vehicles with Seraphim and Dominions running around with Flamers means I get no use out of either of their AoFs now. And it's not a big loss, though I may just replace the Dominions with Hand Flamer Seraphim.


Tank Hunting Seraphim weren't getting a benefit from their AoF last codex either, so it's no real loss honestly.


----------



## Shandathe

Zion said:


> If vehicles aren't getting cover most of the time you might need more terrain.


Not hardly. It's just that Seraphim can play the "you're not in Cover from THIS side" game with astounding competence :grin: Can generally find a place where the Seraphim themselves are in cover as well. If a vehicle somehow survives 4 Inferno pistols, hey you're close anyway. Krak grenades and a spare Meltabomb will generally finish the job.


----------



## MidnightSun

Zion said:


> If vehicles aren't getting cover most of the time you might need more terrain.


Or, you know, use the Smoke Launchers that come for 0pts on every vehicle ever.

Vehicles either have smoke launchers (because nobody, nobody lets Melta squads up close and chooses not to pop smoke), Jinking (either just an honest 5+ or enhanced by Disruption Pod or Holo Field), is bubblewrapped, or is under a Kustom Force Field. No army should be without cover on it's vehicles, except Daemons, because the Soul Grinder has a real big ass and the daemon smiths forgot to put smoke launchers on it.

Midnight


----------



## Shandathe

If a particularly shooty vehicle (generally among my first targets) chooses to pop smoke to try and stave of death by lots of melta, instead of getting off a last hurrah, I'm remarkably fine with that. Especially as it still tends to die.


----------



## SilverTabby

Zion said:


> True, but Flamers are the same cost and can hit more models (potentially, based on range and positioning, ect) than a Stormbolter can. I was just saying the Ignores Cover might not be for the Flamers but the other members of the squad instead.


True, but in many cases I'd take a 24" range over an 8" one :wink:


----------



## Svartmetall

MidnightSun said:


> No army should be without cover on it's vehicles, except Daemons, because the Soul Grinder has a real big ass and the daemon smiths forgot to put smoke launchers on it.


That's why you make the Soul Grinder a Daemon Of Nurgle, so it gets Shrouded.


----------



## Mokuren

Shandathe said:


> If a particularly shooty vehicle (generally among my first targets) chooses to pop smoke to try and stave of death by lots of melta, instead of getting off a last hurrah, I'm remarkably fine with that. Especially as it still tends to die.


Or that, yes.

If I'm playing against Eldar, I know one thing for sure: They move 12" and shoot with all the weapons they need to shoot with every time all the time and always have no less than a 5+ cover save regardless of terrain. If they're jetbikes, they also move 2d6" in the assault phase so they can shoot and then get behind a wall and lol no shooting back for you.

Also they have an effective range of 24"+, my effective range is 12-24", my meltas have 12" range and the models they're on move 6" per turn versus their 12".

Ignoring their cover save is the last of my concerns.

Even against other armies, popping smoke to not die against 4 meltas is probably the stupidest thing my opponent can do. If I'm in melta range, it means I can shoot 4 meltas and, in the unlikely case the vehicle survives, assault and krak and melta bomb his butt, which also nets me a few inches of very precious movement.

Long story short: it's a friggin' 12" weapon, if I'm close enough to use it against a vehicle, it's because he's either stupid or has nowhere to run, and at that point I don't care about his smoke launchers or the fact the entire game table is area terrain. If I'm close enough to be in melta range, I don't care even if he has 2+ cover.

And about storm bolters: No. At 5 points per model, no. "But!", you say, "You can _once per game_ shoot at 24" away ignoring cover!", yes, and kill what? Imperial guard, kroots, cultists, orks? And to be really effective, I'd need a full squad of 10 with 4 storm bolters, and that costs me about as much as 4 meltas in an outflanking immolator with twin-linked multimeltas and doesn't help me one bit against vehicles, monstrous creatures, terminators and other nasties.

If you're that concerned about gunlines hiding behind walls and fortifications, why aren't you playing more Seraphim? They're still very good, and their hand flamers got halved in cost, and if you stick a melta bomb on their superior they're even decent tank hunters thanks to the fact they move twice as much as a dominion and jump over terrain.

No, I'm sorry, "Ignores cover" when your options are either meltas or AP5 weapons, one of which _already ignores cover_, is definitely a nerf when the previous option was "Twin-linked", at least because it didn't completely invalidate one out of three weapon options.


----------



## Tawa

SilverTabby said:


> True, but in many cases I'd take a 24" range over an 8" one :wink:


Wouldn't we all? :spiteful:


----------



## SilverTabby

To be fair, the only real use any of my stormbolter models get is as Sister Superiors in my Heavy Bolter Retributor squads. That way she at least gets a couple of shots a game.

One thing has amused me greatly with all the chatter regarding both this and the WDdex: when it came out, everyone wailed about losing the innate nullify of psychic powers as if it was the most important thing in the world, and destroyed the army. With this edition, we have it back, along with wargear designed to affect psykers, and all I hear is people complaining that psykers are so rare and crap that it's pointless having and paying for things that nullify them. 

Not targetted at anyone, just an observation that made me smile in that head-shaking way...


----------



## Shandathe

To be fair, most of the complaints I saw about losing the innate nullify were more about fluff than missing it functionally.

As for the anti-psyker gear... if it was any good we'd probably take one or two along just in case of Eldrad or Doom of Malantai, but at 10 points for a single shot that will only do a single Wound I'd rather just toss an Exorcist barrage at it. 

Let's not forget a Psyker will often be hiding out attached to a unit - and the Condemnor isn't a precision weapon. Doesn't do any good when he's in a transport either. It really only works when faced with Grey Knights and have a decently target-rich environment... and it'll still be skipped over in favor of another meltagun which can effectively do the same thing, except potentially causing Instant Death on lower T models and every round.


----------



## Mokuren

Shandathe said:


> To be fair, most of the complaints I saw about losing the innate nullify were more about fluff than missing it functionally.


Yes. I remain that 40K psykers are only good for blessings and some hexes, and even then most armies don't really need them in the first place.

It's mostly the disappointment at seeing a new USR specifically about people being so adamant that they went "NO U" against psykers, just like sisters were in the old Witch Hunters codex, and right when they made a specific rule that seemed tailored right for them they don't have it.

It was a definite case of "dude WTF" rather than a lamentation on the loss of competitiveness.



Shandathe said:


> As for the anti-psyker gear... if it was any good we'd probably take one or two along just in case of Eldrad or Doom of Malantai, but at 10 points for a single shot that will only do a single Wound I'd rather just toss an Exorcist barrage at it.
> 
> Let's not forget a Psyker will often be hiding out attached to a unit - and the Condemnor isn't a precision weapon. Doesn't do any good when he's in a transport either. It really only works when faced with Grey Knights and have a decently target-rich environment... and it'll still be skipped over in favor of another meltagun which can effectively do the same thing, except potentially causing Instant Death on lower T models and every round.


Yes. I'm sorry, but if you want me to be impressed at anti-psyker gear, give me what the inquisitors of the Ordo Hereticus have available from Codex: Grey Knights, or some of the old Witch Hunters gear. But a single shot per game at S5 AP- that will only do a single wound if it hits a psyker is nothing to write home about when you can have a meltagun at the same price that will most likely instagib said psyker and also be effective against terminators and vehicles, and fire more than just once per game.

Actually, no, it's just terrible. The Condemnor bolter is just the worst combi-weapon available in the entire game, it's extremely situational for one thing and for the other it comes at the same price as something else that will easily be more effective against the targets the Condemnor is supposed to be good at dealing with. And plenty of other non-situational targets.


----------



## MidnightSun

Mokuren said:


> If I'm playing against Eldar, I know one thing for sure: They move 12" and shoot with all the weapons they need to shoot with every time all the time and always have no less than a 5+ cover save regardless of terrain. If they're jetbikes, they also move 2d6" in the assault phase so they can shoot and then get behind a wall and lol no shooting back for you.
> 
> Also they have an effective range of 24"+, my effective range is 12-24", my meltas have 12" range and the models they're on move 6" per turn versus their 12".
> 
> Ignoring their cover save is the last of my concerns.


Yeah, Eldar are just fucking broken, why even bother trying to mitigate some of their strengths, they'll just win anyway.



Mokuren said:


> Even against other armies, popping smoke to not die against 4 meltas is probably the stupidest thing my opponent can do. If I'm in melta range, it means I can shoot 4 meltas and, in the unlikely case the vehicle survives, assault and krak and melta bomb his butt, which also nets me a few inches of very precious movement.


Since when has giving yourself protection ever been the stupidest option? If I see a meltagun-armed squad coming towards me, I'll shoot them and kill their 5-man T3 asses if I have any relevant gun or retreat and pop smoke if not.



Mokuren said:


> Long story short: it's a friggin' 12" weapon, if I'm close enough to use it against a vehicle, it's because he's either stupid or has nowhere to run, and at that point I don't care about his smoke launchers or the fact the entire game table is area terrain. If I'm close enough to be in melta range, I don't care even if he has 2+ cover.


How effective is shooting a single Scatter Laser at a Terminator? Because firing four Meltaguns at a unit in 2+ cover is less effective than that. I know that's just hypothetical, but that 5+ adds another level of defence and reduces your damage by 33%. Even if it doesn't guarantee the vehicle's survival, it's significantly reducing your chances (even moreso if you're not within 6" range).



Mokuren said:


> No, I'm sorry, "Ignores cover" when your options are either meltas or AP5 weapons, one of which _already ignores cover_, is definitely a nerf when the previous option was "Twin-linked", at least because it didn't completely invalidate one out of three weapon options.


Flamers got worse, Meltas got better, nobody takes Storm Bolters anyway. It's a nerf to the all-flamer unit, sure, but it's a buff to the all-melta unit, so it's not 'definitely a nerf'. It's a sidegrade.



Shandathe said:


> If a particularly shooty vehicle (generally among my first targets) chooses to pop smoke to try and stave of death by lots of melta, instead of getting off a last hurrah, I'm remarkably fine with that. Especially as it still tends to die.


But it's a particularly shooty vehicle. You're getting your Av11 tank/5 T3 models within 6" how, exactly?

Midnight


----------



## Suijin

The Condemnor Boltgun is never going to do anything to Elraad or Farseers since they have ghosthelms (they regenerate warp charge every player turn so have charges to burn in your shooting phase). So you can use them vs Grey Knights, Spirit Seers, warlocks, etc., but when you start removing things that you maybe could have used them against and if the target is in a vehicle or if you just plain miss with the weapon, then it becomes very situational and as others have said a meltagun, 10 points, etc. would have been better.

It does ignore cover saves just by hitting with it, but frankly to be useful it would need to be taken multiple times on different squads which means the price needs to be in the 2-5 points to really even be considered.


----------



## Suijin

MidnightSun said:


> But it's a particularly shooty vehicle. You're getting your Av11 tank/5 T3 models within 6" how, exactly?
> 
> Midnight


He already answered that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokuren View Post
Long story short: it's a friggin' 12" weapon, if I'm close enough to use it against a vehicle, it's because he's either stupid or has nowhere to run, and at that point I don't care about his smoke launchers or the fact the entire game table is area terrain. If I'm close enough to be in melta range, I don't care even if he has 2+ cover.

or since Dominions have Scout and maybe first player turn, maybe they were just in range. 3 scouting dominions (maybe even outflanking) should be able to get in range of something. The 2+ cover thing was in reference to being probably able to assault anyway at that point.

All of this pertaining to the discussion over Twin-linking vs Ignores Cover, granting that you can't assault on the first player turn or coming in from outflank giving more benefit to Ignores Cover, but not everything is always in cover so you don't always get an Ignore Cover benefit but you can always benefit from Twin-linking (barring hitting and wounding with everything, but that is like saying you get no benefit from Ignores Cover when they fail their Cover save).

As far as ranges the rest of the game:
Ignores Cover - 6" tank move + 6" disembark + 6" 2D6 pen = 18" (24" 8+D6 pen) still covers a lot of board.
Twin-linking - Same as above but they get cover save and you can't assault or 6" move + 6" 2D6 pen shooting + ~7" charge = average 13" threat range (8 - 18" possible) for assaulting or 12" shooting 2D6 pen (18" 8+D6 pen) still covers some board, and with 3 units on the board doing it makes it more possible.

Most of the pro-argument for Twin-linking was that it benefited both weapons of choice. The 12" range of the meltagun as a limiting factor of the weapon we are talking about using also limits the benefits of Ignores Cover as compared to Twin-linking due to being able to assault after shooting. You could still assault after shooting with Ignores Cover the occupants of the vehicle (if there were any), so it is not the worst thing either, but generally just destroying the vehicle is about 75% of the goal. You are looking to destroy a dangerous vehicle or expose the squishy passengers.

I guess another major benefit of Ignores Cover is for those Jetbikes and Bikes Turbo-boosting.


----------



## Shandathe

Short and good: 

The pro argument for Twin-Linking is it always works and always works well no matter what weapon you have on hand.
The pro argument for Ignores Cover is that it's just the tiniest bit better than Twin-Linking when your opponent has a Cover save AND you're using Meltaguns (against vehicles), despite it being worse in all other situations.

... yeah.

I seriously have no idea how this being anything other than a nerf to the unit even merited a discussion, let alone how it *remains* one. :dunno:


----------



## MidnightSun

Suijin said:


> since Dominions have Scout and maybe first player turn, maybe they were just in range. 3 scouting dominions (maybe even outflanking) should be able to get in range of something. The 2+ cover thing was in reference to being probably able to assault anyway at that point.


If somebody's deploying tanks close to you when he knows you have Scouting Meltas on the first turn, he's doing it wrong.



Suijin said:


> I guess another major benefit of Ignores Cover is for those Jetbikes and Bikes Turbo-boosting.


Which is HUGE - Eldar, Necrons and Tau, as armies, have universal Jink on their vehicles, and what are the most powerful armies in the meta at the moment?



Shandathe said:


> The pro argument for Ignores Cover is that it's just the tiniest bit better than Twin-Linking when your opponent has a Cover save AND you're using Meltaguns (against vehicles), despite it being worse in all other situations.


Or against MCs, or elite infantry, or even MEQs (4 Melta shots ignoring cover kills 3 Marines, 4 Flamers rerolling wounds and covering three models each kills, well god damn, 3 Marines). So you're worse at killing Orks and Termagants, which die to the small arms you HAVE to take as Troops anyway, you stay the same against MEQs, and you get better at killing MCs and vehicles. That's a buff, and begs the question: what was so god damn amazing about twin-linked Flamers anyway?

Midnight


----------



## Suijin

MidnightSun said:


> If somebody's deploying tanks close to you when he knows you have Scouting Meltas on the first turn, he's doing it wrong.
> Midnight


I thought we were talking about Ignores Cover vs Twin-linking? I don't think either one has a benefit of range.

Now if you are saying people shouldn't take meltaguns, then that is a different discussion.


----------



## MidnightSun

No, I'm saying how having Scout and 50/50 chance of first turn doesn't mean your opponent is definitely in range and can't have cover.

Midnight


----------



## Suijin

But that is totally separate from which is better Ignores Cover vs Twin-linking.

They won't always have cover, but you can always improve your shooting with Twin-linking.

Basically it all doesn't really matter. They are what they are. Take them with meltaguns or don't take them. I think we have went through the various plus and minus to each rule. I personally will probably just take meltagun Dominions and then flamer Seraphim.

I wonder when they are going to FAQ the Seraphim Superior taking eviscerators or not. I suspect the ipad version is older, so they probably won't get it.


----------



## Shandathe

MidnightSun said:


> Which is HUGE - *Eldar*, Necrons and *Tau*, as armies, have universal Jink on their vehicles, and what are the most powerful armies in the meta at the moment?





MidnightSun said:


> Or against MCs, or elite infantry, or even MEQs <SNIP> what was so god damn amazing about twin-linked Flamers anyway?


Eldar and Tau? Not as tough as MEQ. Let's try and keep arguments internally consistent for at least consecutive paragraphs. Meanwhile, for a last time, as noted before


Twin-Linked flamers are cheap and excel at flushing troops on objectives out of cover. Additionally, 3 targets under a Template is a conservative estimate.
The Twin-Linked ALSO applied for Meltaguns and Bolters, and you weren't married to any single weapon choice if you wanted to take advantage of the AoF.
Despite what it sometimes feels like, MEQ and above isn't the only infantry around
Horde armies exist, and 
I'm 80% sure you're just trolling at this point.

I'm done responding to you in this thread. :bye:


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## SilverTabby

Suijin said:


> The Condemnor Boltgun is never going to do anything to Elraad or Farseers since they have ghosthelms (they regenerate warp charge every player turn so have charges to burn in your shooting phase). So you can use them vs Grey Knights, Spirit Seers, warlocks, etc., but when you start removing things that you maybe could have used them against and if the target is in a vehicle or if you just plain miss with the weapon, then it becomes very situational and as others have said a meltagun, 10 points, etc. would have been better.
> 
> It does ignore cover saves just by hitting with it, but frankly to be useful it would need to be taken multiple times on different squads which means the price needs to be in the 2-5 points to really even be considered.


Don't forget - you cause perils of the warp by hitting with it. You then _roll to wound as well_ because you've just hit someone with a S5 bolter round :wink: So you are potentially causing 2 wounds with the same shot.

Not saying that makes it a better weapon, just pointing out what seems to be overlooked. Unless of course they specifically say you *only* take PotW, and not the wounding hit as well, in which case that *really* sucks...


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## Shandathe

SilverTabby said:


> Not saying that makes it a better weapon, just pointing out what seems to be overlooked. Unless of course they specifically say you *only* take PotW, and not the wounding hit as well, in which case that *really* sucks...


No, you still get the potential Wound (which is likely easily saved, S5 AP- ). Assuming you can get it through whatever unit he's hiding behind.


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## MidnightSun

Shandathe said:


> Eldar and Tau? Not as tough as MEQ. Let's try and keep arguments internally consistent for at least consecutive paragraphs.


Erm... you know, you don't have to be tough to be good. Tau and Eldar have really good, tough tanks with Jink for you to ignore, whereas Marines have cheap tanks you're wasting Meltaguns against whereas they have expensive, tough infantry that you can kill as _an additional target to vehicles._ Ultimately I would take Meltaguns even if it was Twin-Linked, because a Meltagun can kill Tanks as a primary target but is also good at killing Marines, while Flamers can kill infantry as a primary target and, well, infantry as a secondary target.

There's no rule that you *must* fire Meltaguns at vehicles, whereas there is a rule that you must fire Flamers at infantry (well, okay, there isn't, but you can't damage them, so there is literally no point).



Shandathe said:


> Twin-Linked flamers are cheap and excel at flushing troops on objectives out of cover. Additionally, 3 targets under a Template is a conservative estimate.





Again, you're assuming that conditions are in your favour. If anyone with brain cells sees a tank full of Flamers 13" away from them, they'll _spread out_ if they can't kill you.



Shandathe said:


> [*]The Twin-Linked ALSO applied for Meltaguns and Bolters, and you weren't married to any single weapon choice if you wanted to take advantage of the AoF.


Trueborn can take Shredders and Dark Lances, but they're bad choices, so they don't; they are essentially 'married' to Blasters as a weapon choice, but the unit is still really good. If you take Dominions with Flamers with the 5th edition Codex, and then they get worse and Meltaguns get better in the 6th edition Codex, the unit hasn't been downgraded, it's been sidegraded. It's got worse with one weapon, and better with another, so take the one that got better.

Meltaguns gained a 50% damage buff (my maths is shaky, but Cover reduced your damage output by 33%; your damage output is now 66%, and 33% divided by 66% and multiplied by 100 is 50%). Flamers lost a 25% damage buff against T4, and a 16% chance against T3. 50% buff is better than a 25% or 16" buff. Therefore, the Act of Faith was buffed.



Shandathe said:


> [*]Despite what it sometimes feels like, MEQ and above isn't the only infantry around
> [*]Horde armies exist, and


Boo hoo, your guns that kill tanks and Terminators and Monstrous Creatures and MEQs aren't very efficient when you point them at Hormagaunts.

At this point you're just arguing that Thragtusk is bad because it dies to Doom Blade. Guess what; if you pointed Twin-Linked Flamers at Land Raiders, twin-linked Flamer units were less than worthless. Horde armies aren't the only army in the game, man.

Midnight


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## Words_of_Truth

Sisters don't get Inquisitor right? So how does the "By the Seal" chapter trait of the Red Hunters work with them? If an inquisitor is present both grey knight and sisters of battle forces are considered battle brothers.


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## Creon

My guess is that refers to the previous edition, Witch Hunters. They get priests, so I'd say since Red Hunters is a Forge World codex, then with permission of your opponent you could replace inquisitors with Priests. Or accept only ]I[ come with Grey Knights, and the Sisters lose out.


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## dragonkingofthestars

Creon said:


> My guess is that refers to the previous edition, Witch Hunters. They get priests, so I'd say since Red Hunters is a Forge World codex, then with permission of your opponent you could replace inquisitors with Priests. Or accept only ]I[ come with Grey Knights, and the Sisters lose out.


Maybe it's foreshadowing. . . .


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## Mokuren

dragonkingofthestars said:


> Maybe it's foreshadowing. . . .


Of what? A new Sisters codex? They're working 10 years in advance or something I see, since we just got _two_ "updates" with zero new models. Either that or Sisters become a FW thing.

Which I wouldn't mind at all.


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## Creon

Don't count on it, the Chaos Dwarfs have an "official" FW army book, and aren't allowed in GW locations and tournaments.


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## Shandathe

It's just another case of GW playing a completely different game than the rest of us. Most likely it was written by someone who hasn't fought Sisters of Battle since pre-WDex writing the rules - back then the Inquisitor with (improved) Psychic Hood were decently popular as they could be brought in through the Allies rule in C:WH despite Allies not being a normal part of the game at the time. 

Just laugh about it. It's made even more amusing by the fact that they DID notice the Allies Matrix says "Sisters of Battle" instead of "Witch Hunters". Maybe they'll figure it out when they re-do the FAQ again and have to change it to "Adepta Sororitas".


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## Mokuren

Shandathe said:


> Just laugh about it. It's made even more amusing by the fact that they DID notice the Allies Matrix says "Sisters of Battle" instead of "Witch Hunters". Maybe they'll figure it out when they re-do the FAQ again and have to change it to "Adepta Sororitas".


I was about to point that out too. And how _Codex: Grey Knights_ is all in italic and specifies the full official army name while "Sisters of battle" isn't even in italic and there's no mention of it being a codex (which I agree with).

I think FW just has no clue about Sisters' current situation, which is not surprising considering the few kits and models they have available for them have had the exact same amount of update work as the official GW models.

That is, none.


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## Suijin

MidnightSun said:


> Meltaguns gained a 50% damage buff (my maths is shaky, but Cover reduced your damage output by 33%; your damage output is now 66%, and 33% divided by 66% and multiplied by 100 is 50%). Flamers lost a 25% damage buff against T4, and a 16% chance against T3. 50% buff is better than a 25% or 16" buff. Therefore, the Act of Faith was buffed.


You forgot 3-4 different things in your calculations that have already been discussed, so that entire statement is meaningless.

As I have already said we work with what it is currently, so whether you view it as buffed or nerfed is irrelevant, compare it to other options for taking in either this codex or an ally.


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## revilo44

This is quite good read 

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/revealing-future-of-40k-inquisition.html

Enjoy

There is a burning question going on right now in the community, and that is in regards to what happened to Inquisitors alongside the Sister's of Battle. After all they were present in the Witch Hunters codex, but the Ordos Hereticus is currently is in the 5th edition Grey Knight codex.

Then we come to the second question in regards to last week's Forgeworld Space Marine chapter tactics. Most particular the Red Hunters Space Marine chapter being able to ally with Grey Knights or Sister's of Battle if there is an Inquisitor present. Something obviously is unknown or missing at this particular point, since Adepta Sororitas do not have Inquisitors.


Here is an answer.

Of course this brings to a lot of cool speculation on the future, and the possibility of an Inquisition codex. Something I would be dying for, almost quite literally. Yes, its time to start my First Space Marine army, to ally up with my current Grey Knights and Imperial Guard armies. GW, you just roped me into a new army.

Thank you to the reader that sent in this correspondence to the readers here on Faeit 212 (I do not have permission to use his name)

The Question to Forgeworld
I had a question concerning the newly released PDF for "SPACE MARINE CHAPTER TACTICS FOR SIXTH EDITION WARHAMMER 40,000".

For the section that addresses the Red Hunters on the that states the following:
"By this Seal: When using the Allies Matrix, all models in
the Red Hunters detachment count units from Codex: Grey
Knights and Sisters of Battle as Battle Brothers so long as an
Inquisitor is also present in the allied detachment."

Sisters of Battle (now known as Adeptus Sororitas as in the new codex release) no longer have an inquisitor in their codex and haven't since they were part of the Witch Hunters codex. Can you please clarify how a sisters of battle/adeptus sororitas is suppose to be able to take the Red Hunters as allies if they cannot take an inquisitor in their army list?


The Response via Forge World
Thank you for your email. The Chapter Tactics update is fully up to date with the current codex's and is in fact future proofed. All we can say is that it is correct and the Red Hunters Chapter Tactics will make sense at a later date.


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## Words_of_Truth

That's what I was wondering, glad to see an answer, that's cool then, maybe my frateris militia will benefit.


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## Shandathe

Balls, we'd only just gotten rid of those Inquisitorial wankers. No more of them mucking about with the Ecclesiarchy. It was like the ONE thing the WDex put to rights.

Ah well, with the speed at which GW moves on Sisters we'll have another couple years without having to pretend they aren't present.


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## Words_of_Truth

I just got 7 sisters of battle including the fleur banner off ebay just, think I need to add special heavy weapons though, not sure which.


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## Suijin

Codex was updated, mostly the Condemnor Boltgun. Surprise!!! we still don't know how to use it as the new rule doesn't answer any of the real questions we had.

See here:
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1429771#post1429771


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## Suijin

Another change is the ally matrix note on page 74:
"Designer’s Note: Allies
To determine which armies your Adepta Sororitas detachments can ally with, replace the words ‘Sisters of Battle’ with ‘Adepta Sororitas’ on the Allies Matrix on page 113 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook"


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## shanewatts

Suijin said:


> Codex was updated, mostly the Condemnor Boltgun. Surprise!!! we still don't know how to use it as the new rule doesn't answer any of the real questions we had. See here: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...71#post1429771





Suijin said:


> Another change is the ally matrix note on page 74: "Designer’s Note: Allies To determine which armies your Adepta Sororitas detachments can ally with, replace the words ‘Sisters of Battle’ with ‘Adepta Sororitas’ on the Allies Matrix on page 113 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook"


So GW managed to make a clarification on the condemner more confusing and faq-ed the army name in the BRB for the allies matrix? I genuinely hope whoever they have spearheading the faq for the codex actually takes the time to understand what they are trying to clear up.


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