# Pre-Heresy Imperium vs Nids/Necrons



## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

It's all been said in the fluff that if anything one of the more dire threats besides chaos to humanity are the Tyranids, the Imperium needing to sacrifice hundreds of worlds to stop their onslaught. Necrons on the other hand, although dangerous, are still relatively dormant and the full might are yet to be unleashed. However even though we know the Imperium in its current state is beseiged from all sides and that it is slowly being worn down, what would the situation be if the Tyranids came in during the Great Crusade while the Emperor was still alive and the Primarchs still under his command? Now if the Tyranids aren't enough of a threat now that the beloved Emperor is back, what if the Necrons woke up in significant force during the Great Crusade along with the Deceiver and Nightbringer?

IMHO I think in terms of Tyranids with the Emperor AND the Primarchs as well as the fact that some of the more advanced technology is still intact during this time, after their presence has been revealed they would dealt with swiftly but with heavy losses. However I don't know how much the Shadow in the Warp would affect the Emperor or Magnus. I'm pretty sure that psykers of their calibre would be relatively unaffected in most cases but would it hinder their abilities? 

In terms of Necrons they would obviously be a larger threat but the question still remains with how well the Imperium would deal with them. Even with the Emperor and the Primarchs the Necrons have superior technology, transportation capability and numbers to boot. 

So what do you think? opcorn:

Let the discussion commence!


----------



## darklove (May 7, 2008)

It is a fact that things are significantly worse for the Imperium in the current era, in fact it is on the brink of total collapse. The Horus Heresy was nothing compared to what is being faced at the moment.

The Necrons are not currently portrayed as the real threat they are, but that will probably be fixed with the next codex. If they had encountered the Imperium earlier, things would probably be even worse. More Tomb Worlds would have awoken at a time of civil war, with technology that is still millions of years more advanced that what humans achieved at their peak.


----------



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Might have even prevented the heresy, at least for a while or changed it around alot. With a threat as big as the Necrons and proper Tyranid hive fleets the Primarchs would probably be more united then ever against the threat


----------



## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Well, if they would have come in earlier, then the greatest betrayal in the history of the galaxy might never have happened... I believe that the necrons would have been dealt with by the Emperors, along with his wast armies, quite quickly, as the Emperor alone would have been more than a match for anything they could have thrown at him, but why would he bother fighting them anyway? He has the simplest solution in the history of man just a button press away... Indeed, I am talking about some Cyclonic Torpedos, nuclear missiles, plasma barrages and those kinds of things... Sleep well Necrons... 

The same goes for tyranids, just that he would not blast apart every planet in the sub-sector, cause why would he do that? He could just fire a few Virus Bombs at every hive ship in the galaxy, and wish them good night as well... 

The Imperium will prevail, and it is always going to, for as long as the most holy Emperor (May his name be blessed) leads it, it will prevail...


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

A hundred Word Bearer terminators and Piss off Dreadnaught decimated a vastly huge Necron force and Necron lord.

200 Soul Drinkers and a small fighting force of Adeptus Mechanus took out a WHOLE Tomb World. T o m b W o r l d.

A single Battle Barge with determined SMs willing die kiiled off the all powerfull World Engine.

Hmmm... I dont see Necron fairing any better against 18 Legions led by Primarchs, united IG with slightly more powerful and advance Titans/Ships. Plus the Big overated Emperor himself leding the way. Sorry Necs would be screaming for the good old days of fighting Eldar.

Nid Hivefleets would be decimated. If the single Ultramarines can decimate the third largest Hive Fleet, imagine what Ultras Marines whole chapter x25 could do to all 3 fleets alone. Nuff said.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Firstly, the Ultramarines did not fight off the nid alone. Not by a fucking long shot.

Secondly, Necrons can be repaired almost indefinitely. That Battle Barge ain`t comming back and neither are the marines on board. The World Engine itself may be gone, but the necrons on board will have simply moved house.

Third, A hundred terminators with an angry dread would trump anything. So what?

Fourth, Necron internal security is horrible. Tomb worlds are not infallible.

Also, you conveniently forget the fact that both nid and necrons have one trait in common. The ability to learn from their losses, and overcome them. Necrons use raiding parties to determine the strength of their adversaries, then base their attacking force`s strength on what they see.

Tyranids can overcome almost anything given time. Compare the amount of worlds lost to the amount of worlds saved in fluff. It`s a pretty big gap.

Involvement by the primarchs and Emperor would not change too much. Yes the Emp may have pacified one of the c`tan once, but that doesn`t mean he could again. And I doubt any of his sons could duplicate the feat. 

In my view, the bugs and bots may have a much harder fight, but they would still win out in the end.


----------



## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Yes the Emp may have pacified one of the c`tan once, but that doesn`t mean he could again.


*That was heresy! He could easily do the same thing again! * It is a clear fact that the C`tan are weak "Xenos", or whatever you would call them. They along with the Necrontyr will fall, and the Imperium will prosper! Hail the Emperor!


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I think that the Heresy wouldn't have happened, as Chaos would have been too involved with trying to save its own ass from myriad threats, rather than having the time, or feeling the threat, to have to concentrate on one particular faction.
The Imperium, however, would be a lot smaller. It would take a lot more time and resources to hlod the worlds that had been taken, never mind take many more at any real pace. Even though the threat would be incredible, I think the Emperor and the Primarchs would last a lot longer, not wasting their lives by fighting amongst themselves. Tech levels would stay high, and might even advance as Necron tech is incorporated, maybe even 'Nid biotech. Hell, from the book Nemesis, it sounds like the Nueral Shredder is a bio-weapon in the most gun-like sense!
However, wether the galaxy is filled with the warring factions we've come to know and paint or is just a waste dominated by a couple of massively powerful groups, depends on two things:
1. Have the C'tan come to play? If the Star Gods are striding the galaxy, then its going to take something special for anyone to stand in their way. The Emperor and Primarchs will be a bulwark for Humanity, but how quickly would they be used up against such might? 
2. How fast are the Hive Fleets infesting the galaxy? If they are coming in slowly, then the Imperium, and the others, might find a way to fortify parts of the galaxy against them. If the galaxy is being inundated with 'Nids too quickly, then it might be game over for everyone.
If 1 and 2 come true, then it might just be that these two big factions will cancel each other out somewhat, allowing the other inhabitants of the galaxy to survive in the gaps. Either way, there might be some really strange alliances formed as civilisations struggle to survive in an increasingly inhospitable galaxy.

GFP


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> A hundred Word Bearer terminators and Piss off Dreadnaught decimated a vastly huge Necron force and Necron lord.
> 
> 200 Soul Drinkers and a small fighting force of Adeptus Mechanus took out a WHOLE Tomb World. T o m b W o r l d.
> 
> A single Battle Barge with determined SMs willing die kiiled off the all powerfull World Engine.


1) The Necrons mullered everyone they came across in the Dark Creed book.

2) It wasn't a very populated/active Tomb World with most of it's population dormant

3) All that Battle Barge did was short the shields for a second so the entire chapter could get to the World Engine's surface, they caused enough damage over 100 hours, before being killed, to bring it's shields and most of it's weaponry off line for a while.
Before it could repair itself the Imperial Navy Battlefleet and the fleets of *12*(!) Chapters hammered it with everything they had, including Cyclonic Torpedos.

Up until that point it had been raping the huge Imperial fleet.


----------



## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Sry to jack the thread. What is the world engine....A ship the size of a world or a world that can move?


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

A gigantic Necron Vessel- think larger Death Star but more powerful and, you know, full of thousands and thousands of Necrons.


----------



## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> A gigantic Necron Vessel- think larger Death Star but more powerful and, you know, full of thousands and thousands of Necrons.


Still, they are weak Xenos, so they are no match for the Emperors holy forces with their tiny little World Engine... Hail the Emperor!!


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

We'll just ignore the countless Imperial vessels destroyed by the World Engine then...


----------



## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> We'll just ignore the countless Imperial vessels destroyed by the World Engine then...


I do ignore them, for under the banner of the most holy Emperor are fleets of a size unmatched by any other species in the known galaxy... Death to *His* enemies!


----------



## bobss (May 18, 2008)

Doelago said:


> I do ignore them, for under the banner of the most holy Emperor are fleets of a size unmatched by any other species in the known galaxy... Death to *His* enemies!


Doelago. There is a time, and indeed there is a place, when you must simply shut the [heretical] fuck up. This is a debate centered around the often frayed canon of the 40k Universe. Blabbering half-true, mispelt, Emperor-loving and half-hearted zealous [shit] is highly unfunny.

On the otherhand, from Spikey's rather apt description (Loved the ''hammered'' part) I truly hope this is written off, in the Space Marine Battle series.


----------



## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

bobss said:


> Doelago. There is a time, and indeed there is a place, when you must simply shut the [heretical] fuck up. This is a debate centered around the often frayed canon of the 40k Universe. Blabbering half-true, mispelt, Emperor-loving and half-hearted zealous [shit] is highly unfunny.


But the Lols. THE LOLS!!!!! :laugh:

Anyway, the fighting would be much more intense back in the days when the Emperor was walking around. Looking at it there is reasonable merit to the argument that the preheresy legions could stand and win against the Nids and Crons.

The reasoning behind this, at least from where I stand, is that the Ad Mech hasn't split. Before the split of the admech you had people there who were willing to try different things, rather then just follow the STCs blindly. Having access to that is invaluable to the fight.

The only true way to beat the Nids is through the use of a virus. Marital power is not enough to combat a race of bugs that lacks higher brain function, simply because they can't be broken. With access to weapons like the Life Eater virus, the Imperium could combat the Nids on a large scale.

From my understanding of the Nids, they can only evolve by absorbing biomass through their towers after wiping the planet clean of life. If a hive fleet could be infected by a similar virus to the Life Eater, it could trace back the whole way to infect the entire splinter. After infection the entire tendril would die off.

Against the Crons, the fight would have be much different. The Imperium would not be dealing with a combined force, rather it would be dealing with worlds that are scattered and might not even be fully operational. In the BGB it states that most Tomb Worlds are damaged and not able to function at full capacity. Hell, some Tombs launch attacks at such regular intervals that the defenders can set their watchs by when it happens, due to only 1 necron lord being in working order.

With the admech not split the Emperor could ask for machines that could detect the Necron tomb worlds. With access to this it becomes a simple hunting mission to wipe out all tomb worlds. The focused efforts of the Primarchs to do this on a planetry basis would result in the swift elimination of Necrons the Galaxy over.


----------



## GhostTwoSix (Oct 1, 2010)

bobss said:


> Doelago. There is a time, and indeed there is a place, when you must simply shut the [heretical] fuck up. This is a debate centered around the often frayed canon of the 40k Universe. Blabbering half-true, mispelt, Emperor-loving and half-hearted zealous [shit] is highly unfunny.
> 
> On the otherhand, from Spikey's rather apt description (Loved the ''hammered'' part) I truly hope this is written off, in the Space Marine Battle series.


Damn your heresy fool, for the day will come when you will fall before the crimson blades of the Steel Legion. Our guns will turn the very ground under your feet asunder for mark my words heretic, For the Imperium will never fall and the Emperor will live for-ever!


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

bobss said:


> Doelago. There is a time, and indeed there is a place, when you must simply shut the [heretical] fuck up. This is a debate centered around the often frayed canon of the 40k Universe. Blabbering half-true, mispelt, Emperor-loving and half-hearted zealous [shit] is highly unfunny.


Your opinion is noted, narrow minded fool. But do not for a moment consider yourself the true arbiter of such matters, lest you find yourself the recipient of retaliatory comments. :threaten: 

In fact, perhaps it is _you_ who should _shut the fuck up,_ rather than force your petty and misguided view upon others.

Indeed, if one cannot embrace the tenets of their chosen warriors in the fluff section, then where can they, bobss? Where? 



GhostTwoSix said:


> Damn your heresy fool, for the day will come when you will fall before the crimson blades of the Steel Legion. Our guns will turn the very ground under your feet asunder for mark my words heretic, For the Imperium will never fall and the Emperor will live for-ever!


Another misguided human, blissfully serving under the yoke of a corpse Emperor. I am truly overjoyed, for the sweet nectar of Fears embrace is all the sweeter when visited on the once so faithful...


-- -- -- 

Back on topic, Spikey has reminded me of a few good points. Having not read the WB books, I had only WiT`s (apparently innacurate) recount to go by. I have sinced conversed with a few friends who have confirmed that yes, The foolish word bearers were extremely lucky to survive as they did.

Thus strengthening my view that the necs would still trump the Imperium, even in its prime. Damn but that nexus thingo sounds nasty. :spiteful:


----------



## Grimskul25 (Feb 17, 2009)

Wow, thought this thread was dead already. 

It seems so far that some have the impression of the Necrons still being dormant but what I was trying to state in my original post was if ALL (or at least the majority) of the Necrons actually awoke to find that the galaxy was once again teeming with life again and after systematically harvesting worlds (lead by the C'tan) came upon the nascent Imperium during the Great Crusade. Judging by how greatly advanced the Necrons are with currently their capabilities still not fully known, I'm pretty sure that even with the Primarchs and the Emperor at the helm of the offensive the losses for the Imperium would be too much too handle, not to mention if a Primarch ever fought a fully-charged up Nighbringer in battle they would be insta-squashed (unless if it's Magnus, warp-powers activate!).

Tyranids on the other hand seem like a whole different pot of spaghetti though, because with the Emperor,the Primarchs, and a much more unified Imperium with better tech, the Tyranid threat, though very real, doesn't seem to have the same destruction capability like that of the Necrons. It's main advantage mainly having large numbers and great adaptability, but these seem to be more easily countered by the less stagnant and stronger Imperium. 

There is however another question I would like to ask though, seeing as how the Necrons developed new technology to combat psykers and their powers, like Pariahs, how effective would they be on a master psyker like that of the Emperor? Would it be strong enough to fully effect him, simply hamper his abilities or not affect him at all?


----------



## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Serpion5 said:


> Your opinion is noted, narrow minded fool. But do not for a moment consider yourself the true arbiter of such matters, lest you find yourself the recipient of retaliatory comments. :threaten:
> 
> In fact, perhaps it is _you_ who should _shut the fuck up,_ rather than force your petty and misguided view upon others.
> 
> Indeed, if one cannot embrace the tenets of their chosen warriors in the fluff section, then where can they, bobss? Where?


[Just has to rep Serpion5] :victory:


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

bobss said:


> Doelago. There is a time, and indeed there is a place, when you must simply shut the [heretical] fuck up. This is a debate centered around the often frayed canon of the 40k Universe. Blabbering half-true, mispelt, Emperor-loving and half-hearted zealous [shit] is highly unfunny.





Serpion5 said:


> Your opinion is noted, narrow minded fool. But do not for a moment consider yourself the true arbiter of such matters, lest you find yourself the recipient of retaliatory comments. :threaten:
> 
> In fact, perhaps it is _you_ who should _shut the fuck up,_ rather than force your petty and misguided view upon others.
> 
> Indeed, if one cannot embrace the tenets of their chosen warriors in the fluff section, then where can they, bobss? Where?


Children calm yourselves or I'll stick you in the naughty corner for 10 minutes.


----------



## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Baron Spikey said:


> Children calm yourselves or I'll stick you in the naughty corner for 10 minutes.


[Tries to hide his words] Chill! We are just trying to live into our roles as work shippers of the Emperor and some blasphemous machines... 

(Note: I did not say blasphemous machines, and I think that I should shut the fuck up for a moment and write about the Vigilant Icons...)


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Serpion5 said:


> Back on topic, Spikey has reminded me of a few good points. Having not read the WB books, I had only WiT`s (apparently innacurate) recount to go by. I have sinced conversed with a few friends who have confirmed that yes, The foolish word bearers were extremely lucky to survive as they did.


WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOOOA... First off my recount is not Innacurate. Second Baron Spikey wants to downplay the feats then so be it. Heres the Facts.

1) WBs was not at full strength when the Necs attack because of the draged out Campaign.
2) The Necs showed up in a ship that blew up the Moon size Star Fort with one shot.
3) The WBs were outnumbered 10 to 1 by Necs.
4) The Necs cut the WBs off from the warp. ALL their ships, vehicles, and Daemon Allies were banish. WBs were crippled.
5) The Necs did all this in a surprise attack.

So all this was up against the WBs. Yet most of the forces fought their way to saftey. Then to retrieve the Nexus from the Necron Lord in the heart of his ground forces, the WBs send 100 Termies and a Dread. With all this force against them, guess who got the Nexus from the Necron Lord? Thats right the WBs. 

Then insult to injury the Necs jetted off when a HUGE force of SMs showed up to take back the world. As Sarpedon of the SDs found out, Necs have Fears. MUHAHAHAHAHA...HAHAhahaha..haha.hahaha..ha......haha.....ha...."confused".


----------



## GhostTwoSix (Oct 1, 2010)

Warlock, I love you buddy... Everything has a Fear even machines that can think know when something they cannot understand. Man has unyielding faith, unyielding faith in himself and in his own race and that ladies and gentlemen is something no machine, no heretic, alien or anything else can destroy. Faith is our greatest weapon and the deciding factor of Warhammer in my opinion.

Death to all Heretics.


----------



## Androxine Vortex (Jan 20, 2010)

Wow, this thread became very hostile:laugh:
I think that the fact that the Imperium has complete chapters and Primarchs ignores the fact of their... primitve tech. So I think that they would win.
Same with the Tyranids. I think. I really don't know, its hard to speculate.


----------



## GhostTwoSix (Oct 1, 2010)

I'm just saying humans when on the brink of destruction have been known to scare the foundations of science.


----------



## Pzycho Leech (Aug 26, 2010)

Heretic here.

In the HH series, the Lunar Wolves actually encounter a Tyranid-like race on a planet later named, the fitting name, "Murder". Now, the creatures were never called the Tyranids, they were called the Megarachnids. But the creatures described are beyond a doubt raveners, warriors and gargoyles. These Megarachnids live on a spiked wastedland of a planet, rather fitting to be a Tyranid prey world. 
ON the Planet you already see how some would later fall to corruption, even though it happens three books later... I'm looking at you Lucius... >_>

Now this planet is a single case, it turns out the planet is a prison for these fearsome warrior beasts. The ones holding the Megarachnids imprisoned is the Interrex. A long lost strain of Humans, though they hardly look human any more. They are mutants, only as worthy of humanhood as Ratlings and Ogryn. On other Heretical points, the Interrex admit to open relations and trade with alien races. Personal guess from their gear, they are friends with the eldar.
Not that it takes a long time for full-fleged combat to unfold, this is where Erebus steals the sword which will later lead to the corruption of Horus himself.


Had the Spacemarines not been slaugthered on Murder, it would never have lead them to the Interrex. And thereby the sword. (Some four Chapters were involved here. Lunar Wolves, Emperor's Children, Blood angels and one more i suddenly forgot...)


Use info however.

Heretic out.


----------



## darklove (May 7, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOOOA... First off my recount is not Innacurate. Second Baron Spikey wants to downplay the feats then so be it. Heres the Facts.
> 
> 1) WBs was not at full strength when the Necs attack because of the draged out Campaign.
> 2) The Necs showed up in a ship that blew up the Moon size Star Fort with one shot.
> ...


I read something else about that though, I think. As I recall it was part of a Necron plot to allow the WB to take the Nexus. There are some references to the WB feeling they had been used some time later.

Necrons don't have fears: only hates.


----------



## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

Warlock in Training said:


> WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOOOA... First off my recount is not Innacurate. Second Baron Spikey wants to downplay the feats then so be it. Heres the Facts.
> 
> 1) WBs was not at full strength when the Necs attack because of the draged out Campaign.
> 2) The Necs showed up in a ship that blew up the Moon size Star Fort with one shot.
> ...


Maybe incomplete was a better word. However...

1: Few foes expect to be attacked by necrons. They sort of tend to just pop out of the ground, so not much argument there...

2: Kind of adds weight to the necron`s awesomeness...

3: And again...

4: And again...

5: Like I said, out of the ground. That`s how we roll baby. 



darklove said:


> I read something else about that though, I think. As I recall it was part of a Necron plot to allow the WB to take the Nexus. There are some references to the WB feeling they had been used some time later.
> 
> Necrons don't have fears: only hates.


Necs do have fears, but not all of them. It depends entirely on the necron in question, in Sarpedon`s case, as mentioned above, the Lord he was facing was of a strong mind, and remembered what it was like to have a soul. 

_You have a soul. Or at least you used to..._ were Sarpedon`s words to the creature. Ironically, it seems that only the necron`s leaders are susceptible to fear (something I hope Doelago never finds out). 


ps. I`m sorry Baron, but it irks me tremendously when someone puts down another person for being imaginative, regardless of reason.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

Warlock in Training said:


> WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOOOA... First off my recount is not Innacurate. Second Baron Spikey wants to downplay the feats then so be it. Heres the Facts.
> 
> 1) WBs was not at full strength when the Necs attack because of the draged out Campaign.
> 2) The Necs showed up in a ship that blew up the Moon size Star Fort with one shot.
> ...


The Necrons got the Nexus back by simply summoning it when it was in the central chamber of the WB's flagship, the Necrons then left because they'd got what they came for not because they were 'frightened'.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Baron Spikey said:


> The Necrons got the Nexus back by simply summoning it when it was in the central chamber of the WB's flagship, the Necrons then left because they'd got what they came for not because they were 'frightened'.



Once again Baron, I never wrote they were frighten, I said they jetted when all the SM reinforcements arrived. To me and IMO they didnt want a confrontation, which again IMO jetted off knowing they could not win. 

I also said they have "Fear". Which they do. Thank You Hell Forge :victory:.


----------

