# Renegade Guard/CSM/Daemons: What Sounds Fun?



## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

With the release of Imperial Armour 13, we have a lot of new options to play around with. The usual marks of Chaos rule applies, but we are still able to join Independent Characters around and come up with some fun combos.

Some things I've been thinking of while reading around:

Dark Apostle + 50 Mutants with the Covenant of Khorne, outflanked by Huron. Reroll hits and wounds in the first round of combat, be Fearless, and have Crusader.

Command Squad with Autocannon in Chimera with Autocannon. Not a terribly expensive way of protecting the HQ if I take an upgrade like Bloody Handed Reaver that requires the little Arch-Demagogue becomes the warlord. At any rate, 2 Autocannons should hopefully land a glance between them.

Squadron of Wyverns with Telepathy Psyker conferring Shrouded. Aha.....ahahah....hahahaha.....AAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH! Man, how much would this suck against a horde army? The possibility of fielding 15 of these in a single detachment is pretty hilarious, though I'm not sure there would be enough room to deploy anything else. Anything below T6 that isn't inside of a transport would be so, so fucked. Even with "only" 3 or so. Three of these are cheaper than a Heldrake and against 6+ save armies might end up killing way more squishies. Also, a squadron of 3 can hold two objectives on the back field since unit coherency is 6" instead of 2". That's also plenty of space to bubble wrap with cheap bodies, which we have shit loads of now. Great Unclean One size shit loads.

Chaos Space Marines + Valkyrie: This is a really stupid way of deploying them, because of the Drop Chute Insertion rules. At least a unit of CSM have a 3+ save for the Dangerous Terrain Test, but anything weak is gonna get splattered. I'm not really sure what the benefit is to deploy them this way as opposed to running them around in Rhinos. I guess they're relatively cheap flying transports that are harder to shoot at, can shoot missiles until the time is right to jump out. I'm gonna be honest, I own 2 Valkyries that were a total impulse purchase, and I've finally found a way to utilize them in an albeit semi-retarded way. It's worth trying now and then, I think? Turns out this thing also has Deep Strike, whereas the loyalist version doesn't. Take that, loyalist corpse-worshippers! Deep Striking this thing might set up a better drop via grave chute on turn 3, I suppose? Not totally sure why I'd want to Deep Strike it over zooming onto the board, but at least I have the option, _loyalists_!

Whatever "Master of" allows you to take Spawn as troops. A 3-Spawn unit for less than the cost of 2 out of the CSM codex. Then you can take 3 units of those as troops! Combine these with an allied detachment of CSM containing a Juggerlord + 5 Spawn, and they'll have some buddies to run around with to capture objectives and eat things.

Arvus Lighters seem like they have some very fun potential, to me. I was bummed about them at first, but then I noticed they ALSO have Deep Strike! I think chucking a cheap unit of troops with some marginal shooting and survival abilities inside one of these could be okay? Or just zoom around to block LOS of more valuable targets, then unload objective secured troops onto an objective in the late game, if they survive that long. We definitely got some flyer shenanigans with this book.

Leman Russ Conquerors: For a Helbrute + melta, I think these are neat-sounding tanks that are Fast, providing an AV14 wall for bikers/other 12" movers like Spawn behind them some line of sight blockage. Russes are prettydamnbig. S7 small blasts + heavy bolter sounds pretty good at taking potshots at troops. Eradicators for the same cost, but I think I'd rather take 2 Wyverns for the cost of 1 Eradicator.

5 Rogue Psykers + Be'lakor: 35 points per warp charge, who has 2 wounds and 5++. 5 Additional warp charges who can hold objectives or be aggressive and rush ahead to use their powers. If any of them roll the power to give Fleet/Crusader to a unit, certain units would be a lot more mobile while running up the field. In combination with someone like Be'lakor who can provide Shrouding, they might actually survive more than a turn. I think, really, the warp charges and holding of objectives along with the invuln save to give you a chance of surviving against anything is pretty damn cool. 

I'm sure I'll think of some more.

What have you heretics come up with so far?

*edit*

Another sweet use for the Leman Russ Conquerors: Give them Militia Training + Multimelta Sponsons! I think they're the one variant who can actually make use of them. 24" range on those suckers, so light transports could be insta-sploded on turn 1, and anything heavier can be insta-sploded on turn 2. Not sure a squadron would be worth it, except for maybe against super heavies.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

Honestly... I'm kind of grudgingly resentful about IA13. Yeah, fine, I'll probably buy a non-special-edition eventually. Yeah, I'm sure the rules synergies there will be convincing and compelling and will let me use my converted renegade AM minis to greater effect...

But I just finished buying just about everything I want! I don't wanna have to get a bunch more stuff, like Sicarans and Dreadclaws and alla that stuff!


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Haha, yeah, I hear ya. Lots of nice things that I feel compelled to buy.

I'm butthurt about the little things in the book, though. Such as: where the hell are our renegade Valkyries? Are Valkyries at 170 points and 6-model transport capacity simply too loyal to the Emperor to defect? And more than any other gripe I have with the whole book: no locator beacon of any sort. The stupid key of stupidity remains the only option we have.

Just a few things here and there. Our flavor rules are fun and interesting and blah blah blah, but the random leadership is going to really suck balls. There are some units that you upgrade because you want them to be more accurate or survivable, but they're still going to fuck off the board without adding any characters or buffing them somehow. Oh well. The good things are pretty much good enough to justify the rest of the crap in the book.

5x Wyverns. I just can't get over how hilarious that is.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

30-man block of the shitty Guardsmen equivalents with Laspistol/CCW a Dark Apostle and Covenant of Khorne to give them re-rolls to Hit and Wound in the first round of combat.

Anything involving Sicarans (they're great).

120pts for four Quad Mortars? Yes, yes I will be filling all the slots I can with those.

Discount Wyverns, as you said. Certainly wouldn't bother wasting Be'lakor on them though.

Hell Blade gives CSM a decent anti-air option, which I like, although there's plenty of reasonable picks in Fast Attack already. 



venomlust said:


> Haha, yeah, I hear ya. Lots of nice things that I feel compelled to buy.
> 
> I'm butthurt about the little things in the book, though. Such as: where the hell are our renegade Valkyries? Are Valkyries at 170 points and 6-model transport capacity simply too loyal to the Emperor to defect? And more than any other gripe I have with the whole book: no locator beacon of any sort. The stupid key of stupidity remains the only option we have.
> 
> ...


Yeah, GW breathes life back into a shitty Codex that really needed it, so go ahead and bitch about that.

I'll just mention on Valkyries - I have no idea why you'd Deep Strike one, because that just reduces it to a _really_ fucking pricey Land Speeder.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

venomlust said:


> The stupid key of stupidity remains the only option we have.


Or, for anything with the Daemon rule, Daemonic icons and Cursed Earth.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Mossy Toes said:


> Or, for anything with the Daemon rule, Daemonic icons and Cursed Earth.


B-but muh combi-melta Terminator alpha strike, Mossy...


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

MidnightSun said:


> B-but muh combi-melta Terminator alpha strike, Mossy...


Adapt.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Never! Chaos is shitty and terrible and will always just be crap Space Marines until they re-publish 3.5ed with the blatantly and massively imbalanced Legion rules!


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

Chaos is fine. Just needs a knight... and drop pods... and a better set of legion tactics... and Thousand Sons to be useful... and some more of the nice HH stuff.
They do have nice stuff to though like Maulerfiend, Axe of blind fury, Nurgle on bikes, Flying Prince of Nurgle, Necrosius and his Zombie army, new access to the reneguards in IA13, ML 3 Sorcerer.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> 30-man block of the shitty Guardsmen equivalents with Laspistol/CCW a Dark Apostle and Covenant of Khorne to give them re-rolls to Hit and Wound in the first round of combat.
> 
> Anything involving Sicarans (they're great).
> 
> ...


Oh, please. The book is decent, and I pointed out the parts I liked. Am I obliged to be a fanboy and drool over $85 of mediocrity?



> I'll just mention on Valkyries - I have no idea why you'd Deep Strike one, because that just reduces it to a _really_ fucking pricey Land Speeder.


I have no idea what I'll do with them, period. Probably paint/sell them.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> Never! Chaos is shitty and terrible and will always just be crap Space Marines until they re-publish 3.5ed with the blatantly and massively imbalanced Legion rules!


Yes, Midnight. That's exactly what I was getting at, clearly. To return to an edition of the game I never played. Well done.



Mossy Toes said:


> Or, for anything with the Daemon rule, Daemonic icons and Cursed Earth.


Also, yes this is true. I have yet to try it with Warp Talons, which are the only unit I think that really "deserves" a precision Deep Strike (and along with Obliterators, I think the only Daemon option for stuff we can Deep Strike).


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

venomlust said:


> The book is decent, and I pointed out the parts I liked. Am I obliged to be a fanboy and drool over $85 of mediocrity?


Well, the book gives Chaos loads more options, a bunch of which are even good, so sure. It's not like you're going to pay for it if all you want is the rules.



venomlust said:


> Yes, Midnight. That's exactly what I was getting at, clearly. To return to an edition of the game I never played. Well done.


Hey, nobody ever said that over-generalised hyperbolic criticism of a stereotypical viewpoint that few people still hold was going to be accurate. I'm sorry, didn't intend to make as much of a splash as I did.


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## Apostle Tristan (Nov 24, 2014)

Warlord with master of the horde.
5x30 renegade platoons, chaos sigil, covenant of Khorne. Attach inforcer with combat drugs and if possible apostle for rerolls to hit or Deamon sorcerer with divination  120 attacks on charge with rerolls to hit and wound! Used this well in my game on Sunday. Not to mention they come back to reserve when destroyed in a 5 plus and I wa lucky enough to get the warlord trait that gives you a victory point for friendly units destroyed within 12". Maruaders did well for themselves with outflabk etc also. Can't wait to try the rest of my legions with these super fluffy ally's.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

MidnightSun said:


> Well, the book gives Chaos loads more options, a bunch of which are even good, so sure. It's not like you're going to pay for it if all you want is the rules.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, nobody ever said that over-generalised hyperbolic criticism of a stereotypical viewpoint that few people still hold was going to be accurate. I'm sorry, didn't intend to make as much of a splash as I did.


Hey clearly I took it the wrong way, apologies from me as well. I thought you were being more of a smartass about it.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

No problem, my good fellow.

Isn't it nice when people are civil to one another on the internet?


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

In the end, don't we all just want to kill a bunch of loyalists and watch the galaxy burn?


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## Nordicus (May 3, 2013)

venomlust said:


> In the end, don't we all just want to kill a bunch of loyalists and watch the galaxy burn?


And that made me go all 'WEEEEEE' like a Justin Bieber fangirl.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

Well I play Grey Knights and Dark Angels, so I'm all for murdering innocents but letting the galaxy burn is less my thing. Letting innocents burn would be an acceptable compromise.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Another fun combo from a list I just came up with. Not very creative, but very effective I believe:

3x Rapier w/ conversion beamer joined by a level 3 divination sorcerer (crimson slaughter). Twin-linked, ignores cover, invuln save... practically every power has great synergy with the unit.


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

Last weekend i played against a tau army and had 6 griffons and 6 rapier lasers, 4 medusa (one with perdus rift anomaly) split over 2 FOC. + loads of troops of course hiding with cover and a pair of void shield generators. This lot costs about 1000 or just over. Though i think i didnt upgrade the griifon to have the bonus BS.
The game was over in 2 turns as my rapiers ate his riptide and a tank on turn 1 after i seized the initiative on the reroll from the rift anomaly). The Griffons rained down hell on his pathfinders, firewarriors and a few other things. The 4 medusa ripped apart several other key things.
After that opening volley he was left with only about 50% of his pts left. He downed my 6 void shield bubbles and killed 1 tank but that was it.
Turn 2 rolled up for me and soon after he was reduced to maybe a dozen models and conceded.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

mayegelt said:


> Last weekend i played against a tau army and had 6 griffons and 6 rapier lasers, 4 medusa (one with perdus rift anomaly) split over 2 FOC. + loads of troops of course hiding with cover and a pair of void shield generators. This lot costs about 1000 or just over. Though i think i didnt upgrade the griifon to have the bonus BS.
> The game was over in 2 turns as my rapiers ate his riptide and a tank on turn 1 after i seized the initiative on the reroll from the rift anomaly). The Griffons rained down hell on his pathfinders, firewarriors and a few other things. The 4 medusa ripped apart several other key things.
> After that opening volley he was left with only about 50% of his pts left. He downed my 6 void shield bubbles and killed 1 tank but that was it.
> Turn 2 rolled up for me and soon after he was reduced to maybe a dozen models and conceded.


:laugh: damn! Chaos really is the dark side. Eat it, fishies! I don't imagine that guy will ever play you again.


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

That sounds... unremittingly brutal.

I think things like that are why folks have resisted allowing Forge World to be introduced for so long: when a CSM player is able to shame a Tau player's shooting to that degree? Whew.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Mossy Toes said:


> That sounds... unremittingly brutal.
> 
> I think things like that are why folks have resisted allowing Forge World to be introduced for so long: when a CSM player is able to shame a Tau player's shooting to that degree? Whew.


If a list like that is a once in a while or tournament thing, I think it's no biggie. My Tau-playing friend steamrolled the tournament that I unfortunately had to miss, though he probably would have beaten me too. I think that's totally cool, since everyone had to pay to enter and winning actually means something. I know I would not hold the cheese back if I ever entered a tournament. In friendly games, what's the point?


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## Mossy Toes (Jun 8, 2009)

venomlust said:


> In friendly games, what's the point?


Well, playtesting, pre-tourney, to make sure things combo well.

Of course you want to bring everything you can to the table, come a tourney. And stuff like this is definitely going to change around the meta. I saw it coming when I first read Stronghold Assault's limitations on shield generators, and am honestly surprised it's taken so long for me to see somebody capitalize on...


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

I think part of the downfall of his was losing the initiative. This meant he had positioned things so that he could move in to positions or of course have optimal shots and use those jump packs to bounce behind cover.
Side point of having 2 void generators to protect a tank line or troops is a great thing for a game about 1850 -》2K pts. It isn't often that they will be able to knock out 6 shots to wreck the shields at AV12 and still muster enough power to then blow up some tanks, espesially with a skirmish screen of 3-4pts troops giving you coversaves.
Tbh though i think impy guard of old could do the same, but they seem to have only the wyvern left now so no cheep shots. Though once again i guess checking older IA books (I think that ia 1 2nd edition and IA 12 have it)and you could find some variants again.

Oh and just for clarification, my previous post where i said about my army what i said what i described as just over 1k pts. That was the 10 tanks and the 6 rapiers and 2 void generators. So not the troops.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

mayegelt said:


> I think part of the downfall of his was losing the initiative. This meant he had positioned things so that he could move in to positions or of course have optimal shots and use those jump packs to bounce behind cover.
> Side point of having 2 void generators to protect a tank line or troops is a great thing for a game about 1850 -》2K pts. It isn't often that they will be able to knock out 6 shots to wreck the shields at AV12 and still muster enough power to then blow up some tanks, espesially with a skirmish screen of 3-4pts troops giving you coversaves.
> Tbh though i think impy guard of old could do the same, but they seem to have only the wyvern left now so no cheep shots. Though once again i guess checking older IA books (I think that ia 1 2nd edition and IA 12 have it)and you could find some variants again.
> 
> Oh and just for clarification, my previous post where i said about my army what i said what i described as just over 1k pts. That was the 10 tanks and the 6 rapiers and 2 void generators. So not the troops.


Yeah those void shields are pretty awesome! What do you use for 'em? Coke cans are probably what I'll cobble together. Dunno why I haven't tried them out yet.


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## venomlust (Feb 9, 2010)

Also, further food for thought: I really like the legacy that makes Cultists within 12" fearless. Added to a Sicaran or something being bubble wrapped by cultists anyway, can safely use msu in the back field to hold objectives and provide cover saves.


I also like the 12" dirge caster upgrade. On a Land Raider, or better yet a Spartan, that Tau gunline isn't gonna overwatch. Nope. I think a Fire Raptor could work, but I don't like the idea of bringing my gunship closer to meltas.


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## mayegelt (Mar 18, 2014)

venomlust said:


> Yeah those void shields are pretty awesome! What do you use for 'em? Coke cans are probably what I'll cobble together. Dunno why I haven't tried them out yet.


Mainly use 500ml coke bottles with pipecleaners and stuff on them. The 1.75l coke bottles are great daemonic bastions kind towers of Tzeentch like.
Saw a guide somewhere that said to fill them with something (cant remember what it was). This seals the plastic enough to make it near air tight. You then seal then top off after fiilling it with 2 chems that when mixed makes coloured smoke/gas. Looks really cool after you shake them up as they sepperate after a few hours, and lasts for about 10 games or so before you have to redo the chems because of leakage.


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