# OMG Blood Ravens decended from who?



## LegionOfTheLost (Jan 10, 2008)

wow i know everyone knows this except me... or untill i found out... the blood ravens decended from thousand sons... how i ask if the chapter was exiled and most likely all the gene seed destroyed. but omg skeet skeet...:shok:


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## Ordo Xeno Commander (Jan 17, 2007)

they were created before the Horus Heresy, and therefore their geneseed can still be considered pure enough to retain. however the original TS geneseed became corrupted and had to be expelled.


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## LegionOfTheLost (Jan 10, 2008)

ohhhh thats right... they just didnt know where they came from.... ohhh ok thank you


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## chrisman 007 (Jan 3, 2008)

I thought they were created by THQ for Dawn of War


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## loyalist42 (Sep 7, 2007)

they were, but they're talkin' about the BRs' fluff "descendence"...just backstory


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## Vitaeus (Jan 27, 2008)

Would've made sense if they were created by splicing the Blood Angels and Raven Guards' gene seeds, but oh well.


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## inqusitor_me (Jan 27, 2008)

Ordo Xeno Commander said:


> they were created before the Horus Heresy, and therefore their geneseed can still be considered pure enough to retain. however the original TS geneseed became corrupted and had to be expelled.


Thay say it was expelled but the mecanicus still hold geneseeds even tho the hight lords aof terra say there not aloud.


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

I never understood the whole "corrupted geneseed" thing. Geneseed cannot be corrupted. It is the Emperor's flesh, or at least derived from it. It cannot be corrupted. Only the Marine in which it is implanted. If he (or she, ec. Mountain Angels) becomes corrupted, then the geneseed will slowly subvert it's own genes to become a holder of the corruption, but they can never be corrupted. The Mechanicus were stupid to destroy any of the geneseed of the traitor legions.

-Dirge


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

i would of thought blood angels came from blood ravens because if blood ravens are still pure maybe blood angels are there brothers


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## Lemartes (Dec 16, 2007)

How dare you !

It was our beloves Primarch Sanguinius who fought on the Warmasters Battle Barge and gave his life.

It was our chapter that protected Terra itself.

Lemartes


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

lol oooh sang sucks le man of russ for the new emperor he is the only primarch that has defeated the emperor in two challenges


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

The Emperor is dead. He melted into a pile of ooze about 1000 years after Sanguinius got himself p'wned by Horus. Horus was awesome. He almost killed the Emperor too. If the Emperor didn't weaken Horus by sending thralls like Sanguinius to die on Horus' talon.

It's all about the renegades.
-Dirge


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## zboy234 (Dec 29, 2007)

Sanguinius isn't too bad but he is'nt as good as Russ, what? I like wolves


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## Lord_Asmodeus (Feb 3, 2008)

Well it makes sense for the Blood Ravens to be derived in some ways for the Thousand Sons, their large amount of Psykers, devotion to scholarship and research, they have strong ties with the Adeptus Psykana and so on. I really liked the quotes from Ahriman to Brother Rhamah and others from Tempest.


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## Wrath of Khaine (Dec 29, 2006)

Yeah, it's a pretty sweet plot tie-in for THQ and their Blood Ravens, as Thousand Sons rock. And their pre-heresy stuff is just plain sweet balls.

Oh, and the geneseeds were copied from their Primarchs, not from the Emperor. So if a Primarch was inherently corrupt, his seed would also have that malignancy potential.


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## Mad King George (Jan 15, 2008)

zboy234 said:


> Sanguinius isn't too bad but he is'nt as good as Russ, what? I like wolves


blood angels new name in 5th ed the temeper tantrume cry babys


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## The Wraithlord (Jan 1, 2007)

I had it figured that the Ravens were from Tson geneseed but where exactly has this been said as fact? I must have missed something...


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## Lord_Asmodeus (Feb 3, 2008)

The Wraithlord said:


> I had it figured that the Ravens were from Tson geneseed but where exactly has this been said as fact? I must have missed something...


Well in the book Dawn of War: Tempest, Ahriman pretty much just tells Rhamah (A Blood Ravens libarian) that the Blood Ravens come from the thousand sons, as well as the fact that he is in possession of a book which says/prooves as much, and the original is in the library on Arcadia a Harlequin library-world of law.


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

I find it funny that THQ actually contradicted itself. In Tempest, the Blood Ravens are Thousand Sons decendants, in Dark Crusade, they're Word Bearers decendants.

-Dirge


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## Lord_Asmodeus (Feb 3, 2008)

Dirge Eterna said:


> I find it funny that THQ actually contradicted itself. In Tempest, the Blood Ravens are Thousand Sons decendants, in Dark Crusade, they're Word Bearers decendants.
> 
> -Dirge


Maybe they're both :biggrin:


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## angels of fire (Dec 4, 2007)

Dude why the hate on the blood angels we're all fighting for the emperor here. So what if the blood angels are a bit loopy they still make short work of a lot of enemys with the death company's rending.:grin:


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## Sanguinary Knight (Jan 28, 2008)

Death Company! RIP AND TEAR! FLENSE AND REND! OORAH!


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

KHORNE BERZERKERS! RIP AND TEAR! FLENSE AND REND! JUST LIKE THE BLOOD ANG- wait, what?

lolz!

I hate on everyone, except Chaos Space Marines, renegades, Be'lakor, the Chaos Gods, Demons, and renegades. And certain Xenos. 

I hate on Blood Angels because they're genetic deviants and Dark Angels because they're heretics. The Imperium should burn them at the stake. Although DA get bonus points for the kick-ass cloaks. Nothing says "awesome" like an eight-foot walking tank wearing a black cloak.

-Dirge


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## Vitaeus (Jan 27, 2008)

Dirge Eterna said:


> KHORNE BERZERKERS! RIP AND TEAR! FLENSE AND REND! JUST LIKE THE BLOOD ANG- wait, what?
> 
> lolz!
> 
> ...


The robes are tan. ^^

My two favorite chapters are the Dark Angels and Blood Angels. And I personally think Sanguinius was awesome, but that's just me. Spear of Telesto = AWMG Skeeeeet! But hey, that's a personal thought.


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## The Red Thirst (Dec 11, 2007)

You say to burn the Blood Angels on the stake? Gaw why dont you just go down to the mental hospital and blow it up. Just because some are bonkers doesnt mean they all are E.G mephiston. At the blackrage guys are self aware to a certain extent when a chaplains around unlike tau.


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## Lord_Asmodeus (Feb 3, 2008)

The Red Thirst said:


> You say to burn the Blood Angels on the stake? Gaw why dont you just go down to the mental hospital and blow it up. Just because some are bonkers doesnt mean they all are E.G mephiston. At the blackrage guys are self aware to a certain extent when a chaplains around unlike tau.


Wait, unlike Tau wha? All Tau are self-aware.


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## The Red Thirst (Dec 11, 2007)

Really? I thought they werent and the only thing they really knew about was the greater good.


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## Captain Galus (Jan 2, 2008)

communists!!!!


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## Dirge Eterna (Apr 30, 2007)

LOL! I never thought about it like that but yes, that works!

-Dirge


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## Fluff'Ead (Aug 22, 2007)

Captain Galus said:


> communists!!!!


Mecha obsessed weeaboos!!!!!!



Back on topic: the Soulstorm campaign is rumored to feature a piece of wargear called "Rogal's Fist".


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## Lord_Asmodeus (Feb 3, 2008)

The Red Thirst said:


> Really? I thought they werent and the only thing they really knew about was the greater good.


No, they're all fully conscious and aware, they're just highly devoted to the Greater Good from a combination of Propaganda, actual belief (it really works!) and being pheromone controlled by the Ethereals. Really its like an Ecclisiarchy priest, they're fanatically devoted to the Emperor, but they're still sentient and all.


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## jimmothy87 (Jul 6, 2009)

It seems to me that if BRs are descended from a legion which subsequently turned traitor, then that would be another reason for the high number of Librarians in the chapter - to monitor all members of the chapter for signs of taint of following their predecessors.


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## fdshfn (Jun 24, 2009)

thats an awsome history... kinda of bad though


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## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Dirge Eterna said:


> I find it funny that THQ actually contradicted itself. In Tempest, the Blood Ravens are Thousand Sons decendants, in Dark Crusade, they're Word Bearers decendants.
> 
> -Dirge


Not exactly, because if a SM chapter's Marine calls another chapter's Marine "brother" then the same works for the CSM. Not to mention that Eliphas wanted to confuse Thule, so a bit of exaggeration wouldn't be out of place under those circumstances.



Fluff'Ead said:


> Back on topic: the Soulstorm campaign is rumored to feature a piece of wargear called "Rogal's Fist".


There is. I guess its just a lolrandom stuff they put there.

Ahriman appears in the book? MUST READ!!! Fortunately, my brother bought it already, so... :victory:


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## BrotherYorei (May 9, 2009)

Mad King George said:


> i would of thought blood angels came from blood ravens because if blood ravens are still pure maybe blood angels are there brothers


well, that would not make any sense, as the blood angels are one of the original 18 (20 wink wink) legions from before the great crusade and the horus heresy.


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## Kor Phaeron (Jul 7, 2009)

jimmothy87 said:


> It seems to me that if BRs are descended from a legion which subsequently turned traitor, then that would be another reason for the high number of Librarians in the chapter - to monitor all members of the chapter for signs of taint of following their predecessors.


Librarians don't monitor the marines for purity, that's what the Chaplains do.

Librarians record chapter history and knowledge. One of the reasons that the Blood Ravens have so many Librarians is because they value knowledge so highly.


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## Sanguine1 (May 9, 2009)

The Blood Ravens have theories which follow many different lines of heritage.

The first being the TS which is a sound theory since their pre heresy colors are close to the same and there is a high concentration of psychers in the chapter. I find this to be the only sound theory of the Blood Ravens heritage because of evidence found in Dawn of War II. *tiny D.O.W. II spoiler alert* There is a conversation between a few of the main characters (I can't remember exactly which) but I believe it is either Tarkus or Cyrus that says Davian Thule found chapter records on Kronus after he conquered it. He also says that Thule destroyed the chapter records, it would make sense that he would try and conceal the taint of chaos from which they descended.

Now there is also beliefs that they came from the word bearers because Eliphas calls Thule brother in Dark Crusade. But to really understand why Eliphas would say that you need to look at Astartes habits. All Astartes (Before the Horus Heresy) called each other "Battle Brother" the shortened term of honor was brother because they were all Astartes.

The only other theory I have seen links them to the Blood Angels because of a piece of Wargear found in D.O.W II which is power armor from a BA armory, the armor was said to have been passed down through the chapter but how it came into the possession of the chapter is unknown.

Also if the geneseed was taken from the primarch it would have to be taken before they felt the taint of chaos so I'm not so sure if the geneseed would actually become corrupt itself. The only exception I can think of would be Lorgar since he was a closet heretic for a while.


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## Euphrati (May 24, 2009)

It isn't such a stretch for me to believe that the Blood Ravens came from the TS geneseed with their high count of Librarians, almost fanatical secrecy, and obsession for knowledge.

Although, it would be interesting to see what would happen if the Space Wolves ever found out about this...


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## CaptainLoken (May 13, 2009)

> lol oooh sang sucks le man of russ for the new emperor he is the only primarch that has defeated the emperor in two challenges


Sorry to pick but he did not defeat him in two challenges!!!!

He eat and drunk every thing (in the two challenges) before giving the Emperor a chance to take part in the challenge. Also was really bit of a Muppet to him which in turn pissed off the big E nearly making him think Russ as a unsophisticated barbarian!! (go figure)Can't remember what happened then but The big E sorted him out.


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## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Hmmm yet the Blood Ravens show little Psy Potential as the next Chapter, TS are pratically Psy Power incarnate among the Normal Marines. I mean I (in any DoW Game they came from) ever showed Psy heavyness. Record and History Buffs yes but not Psykers galore.


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## Malakor (Apr 22, 2009)

Kor Phaeron said:


> Librarians don't monitor the marines for purity, that's what the Chaplains do.
> 
> Librarians record chapter history and knowledge. One of the reasons that the Blood Ravens have so many Librarians is because they value knowledge so highly.


The Chaplains don't monitor for purity either. That's the Inquisition's job. The Chaplains are the Morale masters of a chapter. Admitedly it's their role to maintain the status of the imperial cult within the chapter but they don't really do any policing so to speak.

I quite like the idea of them being descended from TS though. Perhaps from the small group that never turned to Chaos and survived the viral attack on Istvaan III. It was always said of the Blood Ravens that someone in their ranks knew of their 'dark secret' and refused to reveal it.


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## thomas2 (Nov 4, 2007)

Malakor said:


> The Chaplains don't monitor for purity either. That's the Inquisition's job. The Chaplains are the Morale masters of a chapter. Admitedly it's their role to maintain the status of the imperial cult within the chapter but they don't really do any policing so to speak.
> 
> I quite like the idea of them being descended from TS though. Perhaps from the small group that never turned to Chaos and survived the viral attack on Istvaan III. It was always said of the Blood Ravens that someone in their ranks knew of their 'dark secret' and refused to reveal it.


The TS weren't on Istvaan III- they were on Prospero under attack by the Space Wolfs when they fell to Chaos and any who didn't devote themselves to Tzeetch would have probably been killed by the Wolves.

While the Inquisition measures the gene-seed purity it is the chapalins and librarians who test the purity of potential marines, chaplains in faith and librarians in mind and mutation.


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## Malakor (Apr 22, 2009)

Ah yes, you're quite right. I was mistaking them for the Emperor's Children who survived the final orbital bombardment of Istvaan III.....


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## Sanguine1 (May 9, 2009)

Malakor said:


> The Chaplains don't monitor for purity either. That's the Inquisition's job. The Chaplains are the Morale masters of a chapter. Admitedly it's their role to maintain the status of the imperial cult within the chapter but they don't really do any policing so to speak.
> 
> I quite like the idea of them being descended from TS though. Perhaps from the small group that never turned to Chaos and survived the viral attack on Istvaan III. It was always said of the Blood Ravens that someone in their ranks knew of their 'dark secret' and refused to reveal it.[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## Captain-Octavius (Mar 29, 2009)

Yes all interesting points. I have always assumed that the Blood Ravens, descended from the Thousand Sons. Well either the Sons or the Alpha Legion. There are just too many similarities between them.

However I find it odd that anyone in the know would give a definitive answer at this point, given the years of secrecy and half truths we have had to put up with.

Very interesting.


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## High Marshall Mendark (Jan 25, 2009)

> How dare you !
> 
> It was our beloves Primarch Sanguinius who fought on the Warmasters Battle Barge and gave his life.
> 
> ...


Sorry mate, it was actually the Imperial fists that defended Terra herself and those Imperial Fists then turned into Black Templars and followed Sigsimund, so  . Methinks Rogal Dorn is the winner here


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## Captain-Octavius (Mar 29, 2009)

The man does have a point. :grin:


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## Sanguine1 (May 9, 2009)

Yes it is true, as much as i love Sanguinius Dorn is crowned victor because he actually lived through the whole ordeal. But Sanguinius did organize the final defense of the palace and not Dorn.

However Sanguinius did defend the Eternity Gate by himself because everybody else was too busy crapping their pants they were so scared, but back on topic. 

If GW actually revealed who the Blood Ravens came from do you think there would be a large uproar or do you think things would continue as normal?


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## Masstadon (Jan 18, 2009)

Dirge Eterna said:


> The Emperor is dead. He melted into a pile of ooze about 1000 years after Sanguinius got himself p'wned by Horus. Horus was awesome. He almost killed the Emperor too. If the Emperor didn't weaken Horus by sending thralls like Sanguinius to die on Horus' talon.
> 
> It's all about the renegades.
> -Dirge


the emperor is not dead...hes on a throne that keeps his half dead ass alive lol


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

First off, the Emperor didn't send Sanguinius to die for him, the Angel got there first and weakened Horus. Secondly, the Emperor could have, and should have, crushed Horus without blinking, but he didn't. He couldn't bring his full might down upon him till he was a shattered corpse(BTW, he was a shattered corpse when he obliterated Horus. Can I get a "For the Emperor!" ?) and realized just how far Horus had fallen. 

As for the Blood Ravens. HOW? How did they exist pre-heresy? The chapters were formed AFTER the Heresy, did I miss something in my fluff? :alcoholic:


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sanguine1 said:


> Sanguinius did organize the final defense of the palace and not Dorn.
> 
> However Sanguinius did defend the Eternity Gate by himself because everybody else was too busy crapping their pants they were so scared, but back on topic.


Not only that but it was the Blood Angels who finally broke the seige thanks to a mass attack of the black rage at the moment of birdy boys death. It was supposedly so powerful even the World Eaters ran away like little girls since the Blood Angels just decided to literally rip everything in their path to shreds.

I even have evidence :grin:

"Rogal, the palace is saved, mayhap all of Terra is now victorious. The Traitors retreat in haste before the ravening Blood Angels. Even now they are fleeing in their great ships and their fleets scattering. What of the Emperor?" 
Jaghatai Khan: Page 367: Horus Heresy Collected Visions. 

Yeh those traitor legions certainly were bad ass alright 4+ Legions of them ran away from 1 Legion of Loyalists. Wheres your vaunted savagrey now Khorne Berzerkers :laugh: I'm not stating this as fact but I've allways assumed that it was the Blood Angels who beat the crap out of Kharn during the battle. 

Now who else wants to argue that the Blood Angels are sissys?


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## Grand High Marine (Sep 26, 2009)

Dirge Eterna said:


> I never understood the whole "corrupted geneseed" thing. Geneseed cannot be corrupted. It is the Emperor's flesh, or at least derived from it. It cannot be corrupted. Only the Marine in which it is implanted. If he (or she, ec. Mountain Angels) becomes corrupted, then the geneseed will slowly subvert it's own genes to become a holder of the corruption, but they can never be corrupted. The Mechanicus were stupid to destroy any of the geneseed of the traitor legions.
> 
> -Dirge


Except in a human society (Imperium) that's run on fanatical religion & superstition, it makes perfect sense that they would destroy it. The High Lords, Inquisition, etc, wipe out entire populations just for being exposed to chaos, not necessarily corrupted, so of course they're going to order the geneseed of the traitors purged. That's 40K. It's Dark Gothic Techno-Fantasy, not Enlightened Science-Ficton.


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

Captain Galus said:


> communists!!!!


Dude there is nothig wrong with the ideals of communism its simply due to basic human selfishness that it fails so spectacularley, if the tau can make it work I say good on them.


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## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

Malakor said:


> The Chaplains don't monitor for purity either. That's the Inquisition's job. The Chaplains are the Morale masters of a chapter. Admitedly it's their role to maintain the status of the imperial cult within the chapter but they don't really do any policing so to speak.
> 
> I quite like the idea of them being descended from TS though. Perhaps from the small group that never turned to Chaos and survived the viral attack on Istvaan III. It was always said of the Blood Ravens that someone in their ranks knew of their 'dark secret' and refused to reveal it.


Sort of a misnomer. Read the Witch Hunters Codex. It details the Imperial Relgion, and why the Lords of Terra created it when the Emperor "died". The Adeptus Astartes, who already had their own chapter warrior cults, were not affected. this means that the Inquisition has no jurisdiction over the Space Marines.


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

Prince Endymion said:


> Sort of a misnomer. Read the Witch Hunters Codex. It details the Imperial Relgion, and why the Lords of Terra created it when the Emperor "died". The Adeptus Astartes, who already had their own chapter warrior cults, were not affected. this means that the Inquisition has no jurisdiction over the Space Marines.


I'm going to disagree in a friendly sort of way here, the inquisition can requisition ANY imperial forces apart from custodes who are under the emperor's personel command.:grin:


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## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

scolatae said:


> I'm going to disagree in a friendly sort of way here, the inquisition can requisition ANY imperial forces apart from custodes who are under the emperor's personel command.:grin:


Actually they can't requisition Marines either. They have to ask and depending on how they ask, who the chapter is they may get a contingent of marines. But it's ultimatly the Chapter Master's decisio.


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

Coder59 said:


> Actually they can't requisition Marines either. They have to ask and depending on how they ask, who the chapter is they may get a contingent of marines. But it's ultimatly the Chapter Master's decisio.


Realy well I stand corrected thanks for that:grin:.


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## Angels Of Flame (Feb 22, 2009)

has anyone spotted a huge flaw in this. 

when exactly are they supposed to have been founded? as all the Tsons were traitors by the second founding as were all the other chaos first founding chapters. 

are they seriously trying to tell us that everything we know is wrong and that the emperor made a special batch of blood ravens from tsons geenseed before they turned traitor. 

congratulations thq (or who ever wrote that bit) you just made a monumental schoolboy history of 40k fuck up. 

*shakes head and goes to bang his head against a wall*


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## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

That's what I said :biggrin:

BTW, completely off topic but where do people make those cool SM Avatars? With custom colours and armour and such?


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## Carnivore (Aug 4, 2009)

There's also the not-so-unreasonable hypothesis that it's all a lie orchestrated by Tzeentch, or Ahriman or the Word Bearers. After all, Tzeentch is as much the master of Lies than of Secrets and Knowledge... and it wouldn't be the first time that the Word Bearers seed trouble among loyalists (hello Erebus!). All in all, truth is just a matter of views, references and understanding.


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## Brother Boozekitty (Sep 29, 2009)

Grand High Marine said:


> Except in a human society (Imperium) that's run on fanatical religion & superstition, it makes perfect sense that they would destroy it. The High Lords, Inquisition, etc, wipe out entire populations just for being exposed to chaos, not necessarily corrupted, so of course they're going to order the geneseed of the traitors purged. That's 40K. It's Dark Gothic Techno-Fantasy, not Enlightened Science-Ficton.


Thank you. If this were an "enlightened society" of progressives, they'd have been wiped off the galaxia map the first time they tried to sit down with the Orks to 'work things out'. 



scolatae said:


> Dude there is nothig wrong with the ideals of communism its simply due to basic human selfishness that it fails so spectacularley, if the tau can make it work I say good on them.


You're right on that. Communism [on paper] fleshes itself out well, but once you involve humans it all goes to hell. Thing is, the Tau don't really make it work either, because they are taking the human approach to it. If they stayed in their own side of the galaxy and didn't bother anyone that'd be one thing. But they are ever-expanding and encroaching on other species homeworlds/expansion worlds. They *force* their ideologies on other societies, with militant response to any resistance. How is that not the human approach? Georgian invasion, anyone?

I would like to agree with you that the Tau have the right idea. But like us, they broke it when they decided to take it upon themselves to force it on everyone else that didn't necessarily want it. I'll take the pro-human agenda any day over the marxist ramblings of the pseudo-anime noseless freakshow.
:biggrin:


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## Skye (Oct 22, 2008)

*Twitch*...
We are...the sons...OF SANGUINEOUS!!!!!
Emperor protect! Why all the hate on us poor Blood Angels and our gimpy white dwarf raped codex. So we're a little....misunderstood...that's all...
:cray:



Coder59 said:


> Not only that but it was the Blood Angels who finally broke the seige thanks to a mass attack of the black rage at the moment of birdy boys death. It was supposedly so powerful even the World Eaters ran away like little girls since the Blood Angels just decided to literally rip everything in their path to shreds.
> 
> I even have evidence :grin:
> 
> ...


*Sniff-twich-sob* Thank you my friend.

By the by (I'm okay now...honest) Lexicanum has interesting views, and when put together with the Thousand Sons thing, it sounds pretty interesting.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Blood_Ravens


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

Brother Boozekitty said:


> Thank you. If this were an "enlightened society" of progressives, they'd have been wiped off the galaxia map the first time they tried to sit down with the Orks to 'work things out'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My point is that in russia it didn't realy work at all because people weren't willing to be that selfless, however each and every tau is willing to do anything for the greater good of the empire, and at least the tau give you chance to surrender unlike some Cough imperium Cough.


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## Brother Boozekitty (Sep 29, 2009)

scolatae said:


> My point is that in russia it didn't realy work at all because people weren't willing to be that selfless, however each and every tau is willing to do anything for the greater good of the empire, and at least the tau give you chance to surrender unlike some Cough imperium Cough.


Well, honestly, does that translates into something different than post-WW2 Russia? How? When the peoples army showed up at your door step, you had a choice. Go along with Stalin or be executed. Sounds exactly like the Tau to me. The "Greater Good" is just a nice frilly way of saying "How WE think things should go." I personally find it more devious than the Imperium, since with the human regime you know exactly what you're getting into from the start, and there's no hidden pretense or agenda.

Hell, the 'agenda' is screamed at ear-shattering level by every marine and commissar in every engagement they're involved in. At least they're up front with it, even if you don't agree with it. 

I may be a bit touchy about it though, since every day I watch my country begin to deviate in that direction thanks to our new commissar-in-chief. And it bothers me like no other.

So... screw the Tau. :so_happy:


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## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

Brother Boozekitty said:


> I may be a bit touchy about it though, since every day I watch my country begin to deviate in that direction thanks to our new commissar-in-chief. And it bothers me like no other.
> 
> So... screw the Tau. :so_happy:


I havn't laughed that hard in years. I applaud you, my friend. I imagine that we feel much the same way regarding the current state of political affairs in this _once_-great country. I have just never heard it worded with such... accuracy before.

I also agree about the Tau.

The "Greater Good" is hardly even effective propaganda; it doesn't even mask the cruelty or malice of the tau race toward all the "lesser races".

When the ethereals came together to unite all the warring tribes of Tau, they promised them supremecy, and they function much like Stallin's Soviet Union. However, they openly enslave all being that they consider inferior to themselves, and force them to perform all the tasks too dangerous, or unpleasant for the Tau (an aweful lot like Hitler's Nazi Germany).

The Kroot are slaves, as are Vespids, and every other races that is forced to walk in front and die in droves so that they Tau can shoot them as they break, and get clean shots at the enemy.

Tau are evil incarnate - a morbid political combination of Hitler-Stallin-Nazi-Soviet propaganda behind a techno warmachine.


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

Prince Endymion said:


> I havn't laughed that hard in years. I applaud you, my friend. I imagine that we feel much the same way regarding the current state of political affairs in this _once_-great country. I have just never heard it worded with such... accuracy before.
> 
> I also agree about the Tau.
> 
> ...


Guy's seriosly where does all the tau hate come from? their the least evil of all the 40k races, and you think you've got political problems?!!:biggrin: I live in a country where their are more cctv camerers than people.:threaten:


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## Brother Boozekitty (Sep 29, 2009)

scolatae said:


> Guy's seriosly where does all the tau hate come from? their the least evil of all the 40k races, and you think you've got political problems?!!:biggrin: I live in a country where their are more cctv camerers than people.:threaten:


Given all that has been stated about the Tau up to this point, and most of it largely being printed clearly in their codex fluff section as 'fact'... I suppose how 'evil' this species is relies largely on your own personal perspective. If you feel the Tau are less evil than the other races, then you must have your reasons.

Personally, I find deceit and manipulation to be underhanded. An entire society that thrives on said traits is intolerable. Combine that with the arrogance that is brazenly displayed in their outlooks and previous actions against other species and I simply cannot stand their society or political agenda. Yes, true, the Imperium is not vastly different in that it's a dictatorship where all species not of human origin or with tainted DNA are subject to summary execution/genocide, but the Imperium isn't exactly sneaky and loathsomely underhanded about it. When a drop pod of marines smashes into the earthen floor with a deafening thud, and the doors blow clear revealing the angry, angry marines inside... there is no false pretense about some greater good, or a hidden agenda, or even a question as to what is about to happen next. 

You're gonna die. They'll still be angry. Rinse and repeat.

Better? Maybe not. But at least they're up front about the whole thing. Points to the Imperium for being honest, if not a little insane about it all.

--edit-- 
I just realized I essentially repeated myself. So, except for the colourful mental illustration I provided about angry marines, disregard this post :laugh:


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## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

Brother Boozekitty said:


> Given all that has been stated about the Tau up to this point, and most of it largely being printed clearly in their codex fluff section as 'fact'... I suppose how 'evil' this species is relies largely on your own personal perspective. If you feel the Tau are less evil than the other races, then you must have your reasons.
> 
> Personally, I find deceit and manipulation to be underhanded. An entire society that thrives on said traits is intolerable. Combine that with the arrogance that is brazenly displayed in their outlooks and previous actions against other species and I simply cannot stand their society or political agenda. Yes, true, the Imperium is not vastly different in that it's a dictatorship where all species not of human origin or with tainted DNA are subject to summary execution/genocide, but the Imperium isn't exactly sneaky and loathsomely underhanded about it. When a drop pod of marines smashes into the earthen floor with a deafening thud, and the doors blow clear revealing the angry, angry marines inside... there is no false pretense about some greater good, or a hidden agenda, or even a question as to what is about to happen next.
> 
> ...


Look my point is that the tau will give you a chance to surrender when the imperium would just shoot you.


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## tall-guy68 (Dec 2, 2008)

Mad King George said:


> i would of thought blood angels came from blood ravens because if blood ravens are still pure maybe blood angels are there brothers


how dare you speak such things The blood angels have a primarch and are actually cool. All your focusing is the fact that they have blood in there name if anything i would think that they would have descended preheresy form the word bearers do to the dialogue in the first DoW


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## Carnivore (Aug 4, 2009)

tall-guy68 said:


> how dare you speak such things The blood angels have a primarch and are actually cool. All your focusing is the fact that they have blood in there name if anything i would think that they would have descended preheresy form the word bearers do to the dialogue in the first DoW


_How dare you say such things_?! The Word Bearers have neither Blood in their name nor a Primarch anymore... Duh... like the Blood Angels by the way... :mrgreen:


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## yablos01 (Oct 23, 2009)

Hi, 
I just signed up so this is my first post feel free to correct me.

Back to the Blood Ravens topic i agree that they could not have been made from the thousand sons or any other chaos gene seed in the second founding. However i did read somewhere that all the original gene-seeds are kept somewhere with the chaos ones in some sort of time stasis field. (Can someone please confirm or deny this?)

Now combine this with the 13th founding (the dark founding) in which all records are lost and most chapters from it seem cursed. I have been exploring this in a bit of home grown fluff, but is it not feasible that whoever is responsible for choosing the gene seed from which a new chapter is created may have attempted to use some of the time stasis-ed (my English is awesome) chaos seed in this founding?

Obviously this post requires verification from those of you who are clearly more boffin then me 

**Update It was the Space Marines Codex 5th edition that says the chaos seed is in time stasis, and it was the 21st founding not the 13th


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## El Thorax (Oct 23, 2009)

*hmm*

I dnt no that they were desendants from ths sons


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## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

Brother Boozekitty said:


> You're right on that. Communism [on paper] fleshes itself out well, but once you involve humans it all goes to hell. Thing is, the Tau don't really make it work either, because they are taking the human approach to it. If they stayed in their own side of the galaxy and didn't bother anyone that'd be one thing. But they are ever-expanding and encroaching on other species homeworlds/expansion worlds. They *force* their ideologies on other societies, with militant response to any resistance. How is that not the human approach? Georgian invasion, anyone?


Communism has no merit at all save the that is _sounds_ good to those people not willing or able to see beyond the obvious.

Humanity can never exist in a communistic state, and not becouse we are selfish or unwilling to coexist, but becouse the concept of communism requires not just selflessness, but an absence of thought.

Communism, in its simplest state, elects "leaders" who oversee and orchestrate the daily commings and goings of a communist society. This in and of itself draws a line between the leader and the follower, and this indicates a self by difference, and inequality. 

Also, for the good of the commune, a man could be expected to end his own life simply becouse it is a burden, or places too much stress on the resources of the whole. This is not selflessness, this is a shut down of the human instict to preserve itself.

Unlike the Japanese, who could lay they lives down for honor, or debt, or even a strong ethos or vow, communist death is an empty hollow gesture that mockes the human condition. 

The Tau exist thusly only becouse 40k is fiction, even if in a far future such a race was discovered in real life, it could never exist as they do becouse it would be like a virus or bacteria, pruging its own cells for the good of the whole until there was nothing left.


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## yablos01 (Oct 23, 2009)

Prince Endymion said:


> Communism has no merit at all save the that is _sounds_ good to those people not willing or able to see beyond the obvious.
> 
> Humanity can never exist in a communistic state, and not becouse we are selfish or unwilling to coexist, but becouse the concept of communism requires not just selflessness, but an absence of thought.
> 
> ...


Not that a discussion on communism really belongs in this thread but the problem with communism is scalability. Just like an aircraft doesn't flap to make lift while a bird does demonstrates that different concept work at different scales. From a human perspective communism actually enjoys some success at a small scale (i am talking about communism in practice here not the pure theoretical notion of it).Take for instance a sports team, each individual contributes to their ability and each takes an equal portion of the results. Communism relies on a common set of ideals, values and goals. When scaled up (thinking about humans not fictional races) there are too many competing goals, values and ideals and as such the system breaks down.

Now in a fictional universe practical communism amongst the Tau can work because their religion (the greater good) permeates every aspect of their society while the ethereal provide direction. In the Tau codex (4th ed i think) the ethereal are implied to be of one mind. Whether this is a collective thing or decided at conferences while sipping lattes is not know to me.


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## BloodAngelsfan (Jan 22, 2009)

Back on the topic of the Sons of THQ and the One-Eyed Freak, Could it not be possible that samples of Magnus' geneseed was kept in stasis *before* the Heresy, and could thus be used after he got pwned by the large, howling, furry ball of awesome that is Leman Russ.


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## mrrshann618 (Jun 6, 2008)

Well you have to remember that the Thousand suns were declaired traitors, but mostly for breaking the emperors rules, not for siding with Horus. They sided with the traitors after the fact.

Now add in that the emperor was semi-lucid several times and was able to dictate things for a bit, he may have realised the warning Magnus gave AFTER the fact was true. So in ammends one of the last things he could do was re-start the Thousand Suns Geneseed in a secret project.
No one would really know the secret behind the founding of the Blood Ravens, If it happend to be one of the 21st foundings where the records were lost, it could be one of the factors why the records were lost. The Emperor wouldn't want any record of him being proven wrong (declairing Thousand Suns traitors)


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## Tigurius Marius (Dec 31, 2010)

*Good Morning Gentleman...*

(Granted I'm new here - follow the bolter and chainsword forums heavily - and just got some vindication for us BR fans! I was lucky enough to get a reply from Dan Abnett since he collaborated with Graham McNeill between their two books "Thousand Sons" & "Prospero Burns". Hope this helps!....)


[email protected] to me
show details 1:19 AM (11 hours ago)
Hi Rick

Thanks for the kind words.

Not quite sure what I can say to help, except that my understanding is that Graham's quote was a specific nod to the idea that the BR would one day rise from the TS
geneseed. As far as I'm concerned, that's canonical....I'm not entirely certain why it should be controversial (am I naive?)...and I'm also not quite sure how much MORE
obvious you needed Graham to be about it? 

Does that help?

Dan



On Thu 30/12/10 5:59 PM , Rick S-------a [email protected] sent:
> Good afternoon from the US!
> I finally got to read your next installation in the Horus Heresy
> series, you truly took the perspective of story-telling in a new
> direction! Truly wonderful! Also, looking forward to your next
> Guant's book and congratulations on "Ultramarine". Once I heard
> you wrote the screen play, I brought the collector's edition
> straight away!
> Enough with the brown nosing... I'm writing because I'm
> blood raven's fan (yes - one of those nutters). Since both you
> and Mr. McNeill took on the role of addressing the Prospero incident
> between the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves - we in the BR community
> were eagerly awaiting some more back story in the Prospero
> _Aftermath... _I can understand you were not contracted to write
> about that or anything with BR fluff. Anything addressing this
> issue would help if your able to talk about it or if you even care to
> speculate. 
> Giving you some back story into the BR conflict if you haven't
> kept tabs on this. It's been greatly hinted at the Blood Ravens
> were made from the Thousand Sons geneseed - but no canon writers want
> to touch this subject other then Mr. Goto since it's so vague and
> let's face it! The Blood Raven's are a made up chapter from a
> video game - granted a well received game, but a video game.
> Major controversy started with your fellow writer, Mr. McNeill when
> he put "Raven of Blood" quote in his book. Since you confirmed you
> were working with him in one of your video blogs, some of the readers
> hoped you would maybe put this issue to bed in Prospero Burns.
> Sadly, the conflict rages on... 
> It would be really cool if either you or Mr. McNeill would be able to
> address this issue at a later date, if your able to talk about it and
> not under contractual silence. Having some gaming company break the
> news gives a bad spin to the lore in someways - but many fans respect
> the words of their treasured author's much more. I respect your
> view if you were to disagree. But still, any closure to this debate
> especially for an esteemed writer as yourself would go a long way to
> satiating the needs of the masses. Thank you again for your time
> and putting up with my fanboy rants. I wish you luck in your
> future endeavorers and look forward to more of your works!
> Sincerely,
> Rick S------a 
>


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Well, I guess it's better than them being descendants of the Ultramarines. My only question then is why some of them don't also spontaneously mutate into monstrous blobs every now and then. I would actually have thought that they would have been Word Bearers. _The First Heretic_ showed us that Lorgar also had significant psychic abilities. Granted, he wasn't nearly as powerful as Mags, but at least his legion's geneseed didn't cause a fleshchange like that of the Thousand Sons.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

My question, though, is that if - _if_ - the Blood Ravens are descended from the Thousand Sons, then why is the Black Legion after them in Chaos Rising? And why, if he beats the Blood Ravens in Dark Crusade, does Eliphas gain the favor of Abbadon, of all people?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

First off. Nice necro thread there! :victory:

Jokes aside. I still view it as her just speaking of the immediate future of the Thousand Sons itself, it fits perfectly and is entirely relevant. Sure you can take it as the Blood Ravens and maybe McNeill did that deliberatly just to create some controversy. But at the end of the day i'm still convinced she is just talking about the Thousand Sons themselves


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

Just to add to discussion, another theory is that when Magnus scattered the 1KSons fleet with sealed orders not to be open until they got to their secret locations, one or more of these contingents of red-armoured Sons that never went to the EoT and got all chaos-y would _somehow_ become the Blood Ravens many years hence.

We know the Blood Ravens apparently built at least one outpost on top of a previously exisitng Thousand sons base and either forgot all about it (in the info-void that marks their early years) or didn't know and it was a coincidence/part of an unexplainable Tzeentchian plot. This has been retro-fitted to the above theory, with the idea that while the first lot of Blood Ravens destroy the paper trail that indicates they were Thousand Sons, they can't obliterate archaelogy.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

my personal speculation on the origins of the blood ravens is that during the great crusade the emperor had people working on sorting out the geneflaw in the thousand sons geneseed. just as the heresy was kicking off they sorted it out but due to magnus's actions it was needed. this would have been stored away by the mechanicus and probably forgotten for the time being. after the heresy and scouring was concluded and the need for geneseed was at its highest a batch of stable, workable geneseed was found. maybe all records of where it came from had been destroyed with so much other data when mars was attacked. as it was stable and couldnt be identified it was used and the rest is history so to speak.

makes sense and sounds good, even if it did come from my mind.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Hmm I have always heard that not all 1kS went to the EoT. If your legion had just been declared Heretics, but you wanted to still be loyal to the empire, how would you stick around? Change your emblem, change your name and wait for another founding.


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

I think it was sort of alluded to in the A Thousand Sons novel that they were of Tson stock.

It's months since i read it but there was a lot of reference to ravens and corvidae.

If the Blood Ravens have a origin they would be descended from Tsons, but again A Thousand Sons explained that 

the legion suffered from genetic mutation prior to finding Magnus and that Magnus made some sort of pact with Chaos to stop the mutation (it's seems it was a temporary hold on mutation hence leading to the Rubrik). 
 So I would expect that any successor chapter to the Thousand Sons would have fallen to mutation many thousands of years before 40k.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Maybe they where tricked into believing they had a mutation so they would enter into the contract with chaos!


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

To be honest, I can't buy the Blood Ravens being descended from the Thousand Sons. Sure, more Blood Ravens seem to turn up as psykers than is seen in most Codex chapters, but the Thousand Sons geneseed _guarantees_ the development of psychic powers. The Blood Ravens boast more psykers than normal, but they would -all- have to be psykers if they were in fact descended from Magnus the Red.

Who they _are_ descended from is beyond me right now, but there has to be a reason why Abbadon would want the Blood Ravens dead so much. Eliphas of the Word Bearers Legion (he doesn't side with the Black Legion until Chaos Rising) gains the favor of Abbadon if he defeats the Blood Ravens on Kronus; while that isn't the canonical ending to Dark Crusade, it says a lot about Abbadon that he would grant his favor to a member of an entirely different legion just for besting the Blood Ravens.

There's also the loading-screen tidbit about Captain Davian Thule's participation in the Cadia campaign. Captain Thule and the 4th Company were holding out against the Iron Warriors near Kasr Sonnen until reports came that the Black Legion was enroute. Thule resisted orders from Chapter Master Azariah Kyras to withdraw until he threatened to have him removed from command.

And that's not even getting into the Chaos Rising campaign itself. Sometime during the middle of the campaign - I think it's after the first mission to the Judgment of Carrion - Apollo Diomedes, the 1st Company Captain, relays orders from Kyras ordering everyone to get out of the Aurelian sub-sector and prepare for the Ferox Rift Crusade.



Nevermind the fact that Kyras is tainted by the powers of Chaos...


...why would Kyras be trying to avoid the Black Legion?

And then there's the ending...



...wherein Eliphas, who's in the middle of being punished by Abbadon, swears to him that the Blood Ravens would fall.


...so why is Abbadon so hell-bent on killing off the Blood Ravens? So far, we've seen that he is willing to show his favor to any champion, regardless of legion or deity affiliation, that defeats the Blood Ravens, that he is willing to launch an entire campaign against the Blood Ravens (to be fair, Araghast was leading the whole effort), and that he has at least one champion sworn to destroy the Blood Ravens (Eliphas was one, Araghast _might have_ been another).

I'm not suggesting that the Blood Ravens are descended from the Black Legion. I _am_ saying that Abbadon's obsession with the Blood Ravens should not be overlooked when trying to guess the latter's heritage.


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## locustgate (Dec 6, 2009)

Protoss119 said:


> To be honest, I can't buy the Blood Ravens being descended from the Thousand Sons. Sure, more Blood Ravens seem to turn up as psykers than is seen in most Codex chapters, but the Thousand Sons geneseed _guarantees_ the development of psychic powers. The Blood Ravens boast more psykers than normal, but they would -all- have to be psykers if they were in fact descended from Magnus the Red.


Not all of the 1ksons were psykers, if they were there wouldn't be any rubric marines.


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## Protoss119 (Aug 8, 2010)

locustgate said:


> Not all of the 1ksons were psykers, if they were there wouldn't be any rubric marines.


"Magnus was unquestionably the most profoundly mutated of the Emperor's Primarchs, both physically and psychically, and the Legion imprinted with his gene-seed reflected that with *a high percentage of Thousand Sons manifesting some level of psychic ability*. Early in the Legion's history a small, but significant percentage were prone to *physical* mutation, but in the wake of falling thrall to Tzeentch that percentage escalated wildly. The Rubric ended that forever for the battle brothers of the Thousand Sons, but the sorcerers who command those armoured shells still carry the gene-seed of their Daemon Prince, and wear their grotesque mutations proudly as tokens of their mercurial patron's favour." (describing the Tsons' geneseed)

"The aftermath was nothing like what the cabal had hoped for. Across the breadth of the world, the fighting strength of the Thousand Sons Legion had in a single stroke been destroyed utterly - and preserved for eternity. The reviled mutations were no more, because the flesh of the affected Space Marines had been reduced to dust, sealed forever* inside armour mystically welded shut. Every clasp, joint and seam had been sealed as though by infernal fire, trapping the animate spirit of the Thousand Sons irrecoverably within. *Virtually the entirety of Magnus's Legion had been transformed into little more than implacable automata for all time*, Magnus was enraged. The Legion he had sacrificed everything for was no more. The pursuit of knowledge that had always been foremost to each of his brethren was now denied them for all time. By their own hand, the majority of this Legion of scholars could no longer even think." (describing the Rubric of Ahriman)

-Index Astartes III, Thousand Sons (pg. 40-47)

On the other hand,

"It became clear that the Rubric of Ahriman had surpassed the Sorcerers' expectations and failed horribly. All battle brethren of little or non-existent sorcerous power had been reduced to piles of dust within their sealed armour suits, though their souls lived on after a fashion within their armour."

-4E Chaos Space Marines Codex, pg. 51

I doubt there were a whole lot of Tsons with no psychic ability at all, but I'll bet that most Rubric Marines today were once marines with not a whole lot of psychic ability, but psychic ability nonetheless. With that being the case, if the Blood Ravens were indeed descended from the Thousand Sons, there would still be even more psykers within the Chapter than there are right now, even if the vast majority never get past Lexicanum or Codicier status.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

If they do indeed have Thousand Son geneseed and it has been modified to prevent fleshchange, then maybe those same alterations have caused a decrease in the potential psychic potency of the geneseed in favour of stability. It could explain why they have such a large amount of exceptionally powerful psykers as opposed to other chapters, but not quite to the same degree of the pre-heresy Thousand Sons. 

Some people also argue that they only have so many psykers because they actively seek them out, but this doesn't explain their unusually high power levels. Also, we should remember that recruits have to be a genetic match for the geneseed to work, meaning that the Blood Ravens geneseed has an unnaturally high tendency to be a match for psychic recruits. Well, that's how I see it.

I actually hope that someone does confirm their origin at some point. It would make them a lot more interesting IMO. All this mystery BS is getting pretty stale.


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## Imperial Valor (Sep 1, 2010)

I'm I missing something here, they were created BEFORE the heresy? BEFORE the Codex Astrates and the splitting up of the legions into chapters?
WHY? HOW? Just how? There was no need at all, I didn't even think it was allowed?

But cool being descended from the Primarch who beat the crap out of a titan 
Hats off to the Blood Ravens and Magnus.


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## Mob (Nov 14, 2010)

Imperial Valor said:


> I'm I missing something here, they were created BEFORE the heresy? BEFORE the Codex Astrates and the splitting up of the legions into chapters?
> WHY? HOW? Just how? There was no need at all, I didn't even think it was allowed?


Not really, the Blood Ravens were created after the Heresy, but a couple of the theories suggest the seeds of the idea of them were planted during it. Considering the lack of Founding records it's also theorised the Blood Ravens are from the 13th (Dark) Founding, the Founding when no-one knows which chapters were made and the admech has no records of, including geneseed, although other Foundings have missing or incomplete records also.

The main theories are:

1) Just an 'ordinary' Chapter made from 'ordinary' geneseed who've lost all records of their Founding and first marines in the great muddle of Imperial buerocracy and record-keeping (and so has everyone else who might be expected to have such records)...who accidentally built an outpost on top of an old Thousand Sons one and have a high number of psykers because the worlds they picked to recruit from turned out to have populations with high psychic potential. The Black Legion have beef.

2) Ordered made by very high-ups in the Imperium from stored Thousand Sons geneseed (which may or may not have been spliced with other geneseed), then all records destroyed by the very high-ups to stop them and anyone else knowing traitor stock was used to create a Chapter. 
Motivation for this is generally supposed to be that the very high-ups want to see if a large body of psyker marines could be successfully recreated and controlled this time. The Black Legion have beef.

3) The loyalist Thousand Sons that survived the Heresy decided to get back in the game, changed their iconography, set themselves up as a Chapter and inserted the Blood Ravens into a Founding program then wiped out all records of the Founding and anyone that knew about it. The first generaton of Blood Ravens made sure that no information from their genesis would be preserved for the next generation, thus creating a to-all-intents-and-purposes completely 'normal' Space Marine Chapter. That has a tendency to develop lots of psykers. And has a base that was built on top of a Thousand Sons one. The Black Legion have beef.

Other important stuff:
The Eldar know stuff about the Blood Ravens but they ain't telling, Ahriman knows stuff about the Blood Ravens but he ain't telling, the Black Legion have beef.


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