# The "alien" nature of Space Marines.



## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

When writing from non-space marine perspectives (particularly from an Imperial Guardsman's perspective) I think they get the space marine writing pretty well. They are not your average soldier. They are essentially fanatical warrior monks that seek the destruction of anything that threatens humanity. They are cold, aloof, and generally indifferent to the great majority of human desires. And that's great, in my opinion.

Things get a little murkier when they have to add character to them. When you're writing from the perspective of a space marine to another space marine they get more...human. They're gruff and and grizzled sometimes, but it starts to feel more like they're a special ops team and not a post-human construct. 

Is that a failing of the author or the requirement of the reader to emphasize with the characters?

I think it's a little bit of both. A few authors forget how _different_ a space marine's thinking and abilities are. The latter is not an issue unique to space marines. We're human and live our lives through the eyes of a human. We write and read with this lens and it shows...

What do you guys think? 

I'm headed to bed now, but I'll check up in the morning.


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## HOGGLORD (Jan 25, 2012)

I do know what you mean, at times I can almost forget that space marines in stories aren't human, but occasionally they make a SM character who is suitibly devoid of empathy and basically portrayed in the way I think space marines should be, never with the protagonists though.


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## Archaon18 (Feb 17, 2012)

You could view it as a choice between realism and good story telling. Having emotionless characters is great from a fluff point of view but it won't be the most _interesting _thing would it?
Space Marines should be very cold to everyone outside their squad/ Chapter and fanatic in a different way to the Sisters - 'We do this is in the Emporers Name' rather than channeling this to survive getting shot from boltguns or whatever they do.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

I agree, most Space Marine protagonists we see don't really feel like they should. Most often they're as you say, grizzled warriors, often especially heroic but who seem essentially human. Uriel Ventris and Pasanius for example. 

To my mind Space Marines should be far more alien. Lets think for a moment what they really are. They're taken as children who are inured to a life of hardship or death, at an age when boys are starting to think they're invincible. They are then made invincible. 

They're forcibly subjected to a battery of physical, ritualistic surgeries and tests accompanied by indoctrination and brainwashing, spiritual, mental and chemical. They are taught to hate the enemies of man with a violent fervor and stepped in 10,000 years of their chapter's history, rituals and beliefs. 

They are largely removed from human feelings of pain and mortality. Their pre- Space Marines memories are hazy or removed. They can never have children. They've lost what it is to be human. 

They are then exposed to decades or centuries of constant warfare of a scale yet to be seen in our history, in service of a cruel and uncaring regime. They are expected to ruthlessly put down civilian uprisings and alien invasions alike. 

Look at the kinds of PTSD's our soldiers suffer from and amp that up to a scale and type of conflict we've never approached. Add to that rigorous chemical treatments and mental brainwashing and indoctrination and an insular warrior culture. 

All of those experiences and conditioning are not going to produce someone we can relate to. They will not just be 'larger, stronger humans'. They are post-human. To date no author has properly captured that yet, though i'm unsure if they could or should. A truly accurately portrayed Space Marine would be an unlikeable and unrelateable protagonist.


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

I thought Loken was portrayed well, can't remember which of the 3 books it was in, but where he is talking to Ignace Karkasy, he seems almost child like in his understanding of what a warrior is (I think its the content of the conversation, don't got the book to hand), Karkasy and Loken debate over whether a weapon thinks, or just kills...but i think this portrayed a post human well, how he understood his job, but Karkasy was trying to teach him to be something more. Very cool, but i get what you mean, a true marine would appear to us mere mortals as right bast*rd, but that's what they gotta be to purge mankind's enemies.


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

Rems said:


> A truly accurately portrayed Space Marine would be an unlikeable and unrelateable protagonist.


So basically the Iron Hands.:laugh:

In all seriousness, BL would never make them like that. Who would want to read about someone they don't like and can't even slightly relate to? It'd be as much fun as reading a dictionary.


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## Barnster (Feb 11, 2010)

This is the portrayal of a lot of marines squadies (especially loyalists). Its one of the reasons I liked the idea that chaos space marines are not by definition all evil, rather they are marines that have their humanity back, so they have their own ambitions and desires

But characters that are in books are captains, they have to retain some level of autonomy and humanity to have imagination, to think outside the box to be able to be "heroic" otherwise they'd end up as mindless robots, just doing the same thing every time, by the book, which would be dull, like the er what they called oh yeah the ultrasmurfs all the time :lazy2:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I think AD-B has achieved the most accurate portrayal of the Astartes, particually in _Void Stalker_ and _Helsreach_, and to a lesser extent _The First Heretic_ with Argel Tal and Cyrene.

But I do agree that most novels fail to portray the Astartes as they technically should be, its something I notice time and time again when reading BL novels.

Also, I am not sure if you'll agree, but you may get a better response in the BL subforum.


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

A great example of how Graham McNeil used this to his advantage though, is basically have Honsou call the Ultrasmurfs predictable and boring, always referring to the codex, and then have the UM recognize this and think outside the box to beat him. Smart.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

You mean despite the Codex stating that the Codex is meant to be built on and got around at all times, and not relied on as the be-all end-all? Or did he really expect that should the Primarch still be alive and fight according to his Codex, by using those self-same tactics that got around the Codex when he wasn't present? I really don't think Graham McNeil "gets" 40K.

ADB's Astartes are among the best IMHO - In the Emperor's Gift, he was all "WTFIdonteven..." when he's being flirted with, and even "friendly" behaviour from a comrade like the Mordian Sniper he was more "get off, before I kill you".

Take this for example; an Astartes attempts to shoot someone who's allied, but injured, but slowing down an evac. Another ally steps up and blocks view for the shot. In todays world, no-one would take the shot even after the situation had stopped. The Astartes would likely just pull the blocking ally out the way and then shoot the injured.

To be honest, though, a lot of novels come from the ones who have a strong sense of human loyalty - the Space Wolves from their relatively old acceptance into the development program, the Grey Knights who know that the secret to survival is humanity, Imperial and Crimson Fists, Ultramarines and Salamanders, who have a lot of human interaction.

Consider their alien attitudes coming from the Iron Hands/Sons of Medusa, or the Red Scorpions who have little faith in allies, and rely purely on themselves, as well as having no human presence in their lives whatsoever - they are accepted into the Chapter's development program from birth, after surviving a night naked immediately after birth. The only other chapter like that is the Grey Knights - but they have a lot of interaction alongside other human forces - albeit warped thanks to their ability to request Exterminatus and their Martian allies.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Rems said:


> Look at the kinds of PTSD's our soldiers suffer from and amp that up to a scale and type of conflict we've never approached. Add to that rigorous chemical treatments and mental brainwashing and indoctrination and an insular warrior culture.


I agree with everything in your post except this part. 

They shouldn't suffer from PTSD. They're post-human. They don't suffer the same things that humans would.



tabbytomo said:


> I thought Loken was portrayed well, can't remember which of the 3 books it was in, but where he is talking to Ignace Karkasy, he seems almost child like in his understanding of what a warrior is (I think its the content of the conversation, don't got the book to hand), Karkasy and Loken debate over whether a weapon thinks, or just kills...but i think this portrayed a post human well, how he understood his job, but Karkasy was trying to teach him to be something more. Very cool, but i get what you mean, a true marine would appear to us mere mortals as right bast*rd, but that's what they gotta be to purge mankind's enemies.


Loken came from a different age of man. Space Marines were more free-thinkers them (depending on their Legion, of course). The 30k universe is very different from the 40k one.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I think AD-B has achieved the most accurate portrayal of the Astartes, particually in _Void Stalker_ and _Helsreach_, and to a lesser extent _The First Heretic_ with Argel Tal and Cyrene.
> 
> But I do agree that most novels fail to portray the Astartes as they technically should be, its something I notice time and time again when reading BL novels.
> 
> Also, I am not sure if you'll agree, but you may get a better response in the BL subforum.


I don't know about the Night Lords series. They all seemed so very...human. That's why I sort of liked the series since most of the characters were alive and interesting.

I am willing to forgive them since, as I said to Tabby, Talos and his band are from a different age. Whether it's a difference in indoctrination, conditioning, or degradation of the geneseed I do not know. But I've always thought 30k marines should and are different.

_Helsreach_ was good. Grim was a suitably non-human. He accepted that humans could never match his men, not physically nor spiritually. 

As to your final point, I am a creature of the fluff forum. I'm scared to venture out of it .


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Barnster said:


> This is the portrayal of a lot of marines squadies (especially loyalists). Its one of the reasons I liked the idea that chaos space marines are not by definition all evil, rather they are marines that have their humanity back, so they have their own ambitions and desires
> 
> But characters that are in books are captains, they have to retain some level of autonomy and humanity to have imagination, to think outside the box to be able to be "heroic" otherwise they'd end up as mindless robots, just doing the same thing every time, by the book, which would be dull, like the er what they called oh yeah the ultrasmurfs all the time :lazy2:


You don't need a sense of humanity to be autonomous or heroic. As Vaz's example said a Space Marine could have no qualms about eliminating an injured soldier slowing everyone else down. He's simply doing what's best for the group in a ruthless manner. That's a lack of humanity not roboticness.

I'm not arguing that Space Marines should be emotionless, initiative lacking robots. Rather they should have a fundamentally alien mindset and be thoroughly unsuited to and uneasy with 'human' interaction. Space marines shouldn't be cracking jokes or wry one liners. 



tabbytomo said:


> A great example of how Graham McNeil used this to his advantage though, is basically have Honsou call the Ultrasmurfs predictable and boring, always referring to the codex, and then have the UM recognize this and think outside the box to beat him. Smart.


Being more inhuman wouldn't mean they're predictable and boring, it just means they wouldn't be concerned with the things human soldiers are. They have a different mindset. Emotionlessness (which i don't think even the 'truly technically accurate' Astartes would be) does not equal a lack of innovation or tactical ability. The Ultramarine's veneration of their primarch and his works is to blame here, not the Astartes mindset. The Ultramarines view the Codex Astartes the way they do thanks to 10,000 years of ritual and dogma. This was a tome penned by their holy father. 



hailene said:


> I agree with everything in your post except this part.
> 
> They shouldn't suffer from PTSD. They're post-human. They don't suffer the same things that humans would.


Perhaps not PTSD per-se, but surely centuries of the bloodiest warfare would be detrimental to your mental health. Perhaps though that's one of the reasons for all the chemical therapy, indoctrination and chaplain programme; to counteract their lives of war. 

The 5th edition Chaos Codex does mention however that some loyalist dreadnoughts can "succumb to battle psychosis built over centuries, or even millenia, of constant warfare". 

I would agree with the others who have said that ADB in Helsreach has been the most accurate portrayal of Space Marines, though still not fully there. But to do so would make for poor reading material.


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## Designation P-90 (Feb 24, 2012)

I think that Grimaldus from _Helsreach_ is a good example of a SM protagonist that does not fall into the trap of being "too human".

edit: this was already said, oops!


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## tabbytomo (Aug 12, 2008)

Rynns World - Pedro Kantor? Think he might fit the bill also..theres a few characters around him that fill the job of emotionless killers.


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## Noyzmarine (Aug 10, 2012)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I think AD-B has achieved the most accurate portrayal of the Astartes, particually in _Void Stalker_ and _Helsreach_, and to a lesser extent _The First Heretic_ with Argel Tal and Cyrene.
> 
> But I do agree that most novels fail to portray the Astartes as they technically should be, its something I notice time and time again when reading BL novels.
> 
> Also, I am not sure if you'll agree, but you may get a better response in the BL subforum.


I thoroughly agree with you about ADB! I've read the Night Lords series and just finished The First Heretic. His characters added "humanity" really has a profound influence on the overall story. I know that people can and have been brainwashed, which is essentially what becomes of space marines, but I think that as long as you have a brain and emotions that some of that "humanity" will always rise to the surface eventually. In the case of the space marines, do these surfacing emotions and the like equate "corruption"?


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## daxxglax (Apr 24, 2010)

I'm reminded of what Kakasy said in Flight of the Eisentstein: "If the sole trait these Astartes share in common with we mere mortal masses is their bond of brotherhood, then one must dare to ask the question- if that were lost to them what would they become?"

He's right- being created for nothing but war, the only thing they have to tether their humanity is their bond with each other, and I like in some of the books how the Astartes really only connect with their battle-brothers, while normal humans are estranged to them. Mind you, I really hate it when the writers make regular people seem like children while interacting with them. That's part of what's good in Legion and Horus Rising: the Astartes _are_ kind of alien. They're almost aloof. Not to mention we see some of their own lack of humanity. We see Loken's almost childish misunderstanding of philosophy in his talks with Sindermann, but they rather balance each other out. I'm reminded of another scene, where Loken's company is storming the religious insurgents' base, and when they come across a shrine, one of his men says, "They believe in things that aren't real?" This question seems childish, almost naive, but you have to consider that, though the Great Crusade is a secular age of advancement, Astartes and humans alike have been raised on dogma. It would be no different than if they did believe in a higher power, and wondered at how someone could not. Imagine telling an ancient Egyptian you don't believe in Ra. They'd give you a puzzled look and say "Then what do you think the sun is?" The same sort of logic applies to secular dogma of the Crusade. It's the same thing as those who were introduced to their religion at childhood and have never questioned it.

Astartes sort of _have_ to believe in something, whether that gods exist or they don't. They are made for war and nothing else. They have to believe absolutely in something, to hold onto something greater, whether it's belief in spreading the Imperial Truth or that the Emperor is an animal totem. Generally, those who have their faith broken turn to Chaos. Chaos is the way of selfishness, and when a Space Marine's reason for fighting has been shattered, from then on he fights only for himself. The deprivation and selflessness that he endured under the banner of a cause that was a lie is cast aside. This is the tragedy of the Space Marines: that the defense of the human race has cost them their humanity.

Now, of course this varies by Chapter. The Salamanders and Ultramarines, for example, have a lot more casual contact with humans. The Space Wolves, too, despite their ferocity, are more humanlike than their fangs would let on. Remember when Logan Grimnar called out the High Lords themselves when they ordered all surviving inhabitants of Armageddon to be worked to death? On the other hand, you've got chapters like the Iron Hands, who are so far removed from humanity, both mentally and physically, so as to appear monstrous. I liked their portrayal in Lord of the Night, where the titular Night Lord is seen as a demi-god by his legion of underhive savages, an avenging angel of the Emperor himself. His enemies see him as a horrifying monster in the shadows. The Inquisition sees him as a more tangible threat. 

The important thing to keep in mind while characterizing Astartes is that they are both more than human and less than human. They're monstrous giants who can spit acid and crush a man's skull with their hands, but at the same time, they can fathom little more than the constant conflict they were created for. Their empathy, their consciousnesses have been sacrificed, and they are saved from becoming selfish monsters only by the dogma of their Chaplains.


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

When this topic comes up, three things come to mind:

1. First, a quote by Heraclitus -
_"Out of every 100 men, 10 shouldn’t even be there,
Eighty are just targets,
Nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them,
for they make the battle.
Ah, but the one,
One is a warrior,
And he will bring the others back."_

2. Second, the concepts introduced by Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman in his book, "On Killing".

3. Studies and articles written regarding the increasing social and psychological divide between the long-term veterans of the two wars fought by the United States in the past eleven years, and their civilian counterparts.

Where those three intersect, that's where I think you start arriving at the Astartes mindset.

Now, what defines a Space Marine? I don't think it's the Power Armour, or the superhuman physicality. I believe it's the mental and psychological endurance required when you're on a constant "war-footing". It's what allowed all those members of the Legiones Astartes (minus World Eaters after they got the Butcher's Nails) to engage in almost two centuries of constant warfare, training, and discipline without losing touch of who they were.

But what provides that endurance?

I think that's a two-part answer. The first part is the hypno-indoctrination and conditioning mentioned in the "Index Astartes" articles. The other half of that is culture - of the Space Marines in general, and of the Chapter specifically.

Now, the first part - psycho-indoctrination, chemical treatments, and conditioning -is what makes the Space Marine physically, mentally, and psychologically superhuman. They allow him to deal with the pain, function without sleep, instantly recall memories, process data with lightning speed, etc. They allow him to function normally even if he has to fight, train, etc., on a constant basis (think about that 24-hour schedule in the old Codex: Space Marines).

What the cultural part does is _justify_ that way of life and make it not just normal and bearable, but *desireable* in the Space Marine's eyes. Ordinary human beings don't have the desire to spend 20 hours out of every 24 training, praying, and maintaining their equipment. Not on their own. They need a motivator to be that way. It's the difference between the Spartan and the lifestyle he led and every other Greek and their way of life. Or the Samurai and their code of conduct versus that of ordinary Japanese feudal peasants.

Personally, and for the above reasons, I don't really buy into the whole "quasi-autistic, almost unable to comprehend normal humans" template we see with a lot of Space Marines. I don't care if they haven't been "normal" for decades or even centuries. Space Marines fight alongside and against human beings all the time. Certain Chapters even live among more-or-less normal populations for extended periods of time. The idea that they would be at a loss in terms of their capacity (or lack thereof) for fear, weakness, pain, hunger, etc., is thus unrealistic (IMHO).

What I _can_ see is Space Marines who are *unsympathetic* to normal human beings and their needs. This might be because they are elitist (because they were chosen because they were the best) and justified in being so (both because they made it as a Space Marine and because of what that means - being genetically linked to the Emperor, and serving as his most puissant warrior). Their culture would ultimately determine how their behavior would translate, though.

So, for instance, a Space Wolf in 40k would act like he does because that's his Chapter's culture: they adopted the warrior traditions and mythological aspects of Fenris, and this translated to their feasting, oral history, titles, ethos based on personal heroism, etc. The Dark Angels, on the other hand, are descended from a tradition based on monastic knights. Their culture thus creates Space Marines who would act accordingly.

A Space Marine's view of human beings would thus be balanced between their personal sense of elitism (unless they happen to be humble, like Uriel Ventris to name one) and the culture/ethos of his Chapter. An Ultramarine is pledged to defend Mankind and has been brought up as a champion of his species. A Flesh Tearer, on the other hand, is defined by the effects the Red Thirst and the Black Rage would have on his already ruthless heritage as a feral hunter. He's not going to give a damn about how a normal human being feels. His loyalty is to the Emperor and the species.

I hope all that made sense! 

Cheers,
P.


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## Ixion (Jun 26, 2012)

If ever I wrote about Space Marines, my depiction of them would probably be as insensate, emotionless machines-- biological weapons to be unleashed on the battlefield and then reigned in, their brains so heavily wired for tactics and warfare that nothing else remains.

If having human emotions would register as a failing, then depicting them as characters becomes meaningless. I would write them as a thing that happens, never showing things from their perspective as it would be too far removed from sane perception to be relatable by any man.

There would also be funeral services before every recruitment season, as each man chosen to join their esoteric ranks is already dead-- nothing shall remain of the man but the body he sacrificed to become a weapon in the Imperium's eternal war.

Just a thought I've been tossing around lately.


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

I can't believe this one hasn't been raised-Hyperion from "Empra's gift". He is exactly the way a Space Marine should be, he doesn't understand human emotions, desires or facial expressions.

Also the three Marines in the latest Gaunt book. They're pretty good examples of what Space Marines are like in relation to common humanity.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Sturmovic said:


> Also the three Marines in the latest Gaunt book. They're pretty good examples of what Space Marines are like in relation to common humanity.


The authors are good about making Space Marines aloof when writing from a human perspective (like the Guard in _Salvation's Reach_). All you have to do is have your normal character try to talk to a Space Marine, have the marine blow him off or walk away, and bam, you got it.

It's tougher when you are writing from a Space Marine perspective that interacts primarily with other Space Marines. You can't have them blowing each other off, can you? Not for the whole book.

That's when you have to start adding human traits to them and then they're less super-human but human with super attributes.


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

hailene said:


> The authors are good about making Space Marines aloof when writing from a human perspective (like the Guard in _Salvation's Reach_). All you have to do is have your normal character try to talk to a Space Marine, have the marine blow him off or walk away, and bam, you got it.
> 
> It's tougher when you are writing from a Space Marine perspective that interacts primarily with other Space Marines. You can't have them blowing each other off, can you? Not for the whole book.
> 
> That's when you have to start adding human traits to them and then they're less super-human but human with super attributes.


I must point out that the entirety of "Empra's Gift" is written from a Space Marine perspective, where Hyperion constantly interacts with his squad. It is certainly not impossible.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Sturmovic said:


> I must point out that the entirety of "Empra's Gift" is written from a Space Marine perspective, where Hyperion constantly interacts with his squad. It is certainly not impossible.


I was going to comment on that but forgot. Whoops.

Look at the interaction between him and humans. Cold and weird, right?

Look at his interaction with his squad. It's pretty human. 

Look at the interaction between the two twins. That is very human.

As I said before, human-space marine interaction is usually pretty solid. Space Marine to Space Marine you get too human.


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

hailene said:


> I was going to comment on that but forgot. Whoops.
> 
> Look at the interaction between him and humans. Cold and weird, right?
> 
> ...


I didn't see any coldness in his attitude towards humans. Curiosity if anything (example-he stood and avoided butting into their banter so he could listen in).

As for the squad interactions, I can't see Space Marines being robotic towards each other, as they have a shared identity (language, faith, chapter, warrior culture) and must work together very closely in warfare. They kind of have to be sociable towards each other. In addition to that, Castial shares a telepathic link.

Furthermore, I'd like to point out that their interactions aren't actually very human at all. They have very few feelings, and that's reflected (at least in the Emperor's Gift) in their spartan conversations with each other, caused by the absense of most of the emotional undertones that the inquisitorial retinue demonstrates.


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## daxxglax (Apr 24, 2010)

Ixion said:


> If ever I wrote about Space Marines, my depiction of them would probably be as insensate, emotionless machines-- biological weapons to be unleashed on the battlefield and then reigned in, their brains so heavily wired for tactics and warfare that nothing else remains.
> 
> If having human emotions would register as a failing, then depicting them as characters becomes meaningless. I would write them as a thing that happens, never showing things from their perspective as it would be too far removed from sane perception to be relatable by any man.
> 
> ...


That's an interesting perspective, and would really be interesting if done from a normal human's POV.

The "we are already dead" thing sounds a lot like the Doom Eagles


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## Ixion (Jun 26, 2012)

daxxglax said:


> That's an interesting perspective, and would really be interesting if done from a normal human's POV.
> 
> The "we are already dead" thing sounds a lot like the Doom Eagles


I'm glad you like the idea. I did indeed intend it to be told from a human perspective, either civilian or Imperial Guard. The Doom Eagles thing I can see the connection with; the one point I would want to emphasize is that the funereal attitude towards their creation is not because they will inevitably die in service, but because the person they are made from must die for his body to become a Space Marine-- the Astartes simply are not people anymore.

One aspect of this approach is that it would render the various chapter themes largely meaningless as well; you could still have Ultramarines and Blood Angels and Imperial Fists, but whatever stylization or theme they have would be arbitrarily implemented by those that manufacture them, rather than arising from their own history or origins. They would simply be too functionally homogeneous for the various aesthetics to mean anything. It would also mean that Dreadnoughts would make less sense and have less gravitas, as they're simply Astartes in really clunky mech suits-- by that point, Dreadnoughts would make more sense as pure robots serving alongside Astartes as heavy firepower.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Sturmovic said:


> I didn't see any coldness in his attitude towards humans. Curiosity if anything (example-he stood and avoided butting into their banter so he could listen in).


Maybe cold isn't the right word. But definitely...aloof. He's interested, but more of a science experiment as opposed to genuinely interested like a person would be.

It would be closer to observing another species at play (which, technically, you could make that argument).



Sturmovic said:


> As for the squad interactions, I can't see Space Marines being robotic towards each other, as they have a shared identity (language, faith, chapter, warrior culture) and must work together very closely in warfare. They kind of have to be sociable towards each other. In addition to that, Castial shares a telepathic link.


Robotic, no. But there's a lot of bickering, arrogance, and finger pointing throughout the book. Very...human? Should Space Marines be above it? I can not give a definite answer. I think they should be.

And there's no _need_ to get along with each other. As long as you can work effectively as a unit then how you get along with someone is immaterial. True, for us humans, liking a person helps, but I would assume these trans-humans (the GKs in particular) would be above it.



Sturmovic said:


> Furthermore, I'd like to point out that their interactions aren't actually very human at all. They have very few feelings, and that's reflected (at least in the Emperor's Gift) in their spartan conversations with each other, caused by the absense of most of the emotional undertones that the inquisitorial retinue demonstrates.


The blame on Hyperion after their fight with the first Greater Daemon? The blame of the twin that puts it on Hyperion? The familial bound between the twins? The "be damned with our orders, we're going to die anyway!" moment when they're fighting towards Angron.


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## The_Reaper (Apr 22, 2012)

Sturmovic said:


> I didn't see any coldness in his attitude towards humans. Curiosity if anything (example-he stood and avoided butting into their banter so he could listen in).


I agree with you that there is a certainly curiosity in the story but there is also a hint of coldness, such as his interactions with Darford as he sometimes ignores him or shows him a hint of aggression. But the intresting part about Hyperion's personality is indeed his curiosity such as his interactions with Vasilla, Annika, etc and how they view things which also gives him something to think about. I personally like this balance and how ADB portrays Hyperion, not too human and not too inhuman or too ruthless, something inbetween. His portrayal of Hyperion gives us more insight and something to relate to even a little, which makes it an interesting read. Honestly I think if space marines were portrayed as cold ruthless killing machines throughout the story it would be hard to relate to, probably something like basic necron warriors.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

Like I said earlier though, of all the chapters, Grey Knights spend more of their time with humans than any other chapter - their Inquisition links mainly. So while this provides a skewed view, it allows more interaction among humans. They have curiosity - almost childlike and hesitant.

However a chapter like the Red Scorpions who themselves rely on their own capabilities rather than Joint Operations - even if they are involved in a theatre with multiple military forces - Siege of Helios, Vraks, Beta Anphelion, and Badab. This lack of trust is inherent to chapter dogma, obviously but combine that with having no human ties whatsoever - they actively avoid non red scorpions, and were taken into the Chapter at 1 night old.


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## Scholtae (Aug 16, 2010)

Wrath of Iron was an excellent depiction of the iron hands, they did not appear to be particularly human at all.


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

hailene said:


> Maybe cold isn't the right word. But definitely...aloof. He's interested, but more of a science experiment as opposed to genuinely interested like a person would be.
> 
> It would be closer to observing another species at play (which, technically, you could make that argument).


Well that sounds pretty accurate, doesn't it?



hailene said:


> Robotic, no. But there's a lot of bickering, arrogance, and finger pointing throughout the book. Very...human? Should Space Marines be above it? I can not give a definite answer. I think they should be.


Maybe there is an excess, and a realistic Space Marine would make a boring character. However, I must repeat that the Space Marine society is a replica of a close-knit human tribe, family or monastic order, or all three in one. For all their genetic engineering, they retain all emotions that don't automatically interfere with combat (fear).



hailene said:


> And there's no _need_ to get along with each other. As long as you can work effectively as a unit then how you get along with someone is immaterial. True, for us humans, liking a person helps, but I would assume these trans-humans (the GKs in particular) would be above it.


Didn't the Horus Heresy itself show that Space Marines aren't above human emotions, sin, and temptation?



hailene said:


> The blame on Hyperion after their fight with the first Greater Daemon? The blame of the twin that puts it on Hyperion? The familial bound between the twins? The "be damned with our orders, we're going to die anyway!" moment when they're fighting towards Angron.


The first is characterized by an intense telepathic link between the pair of twins, the severing of which was likely going to have repercussions.

The second merely shows brotherhood and comradeship, something that SMs are supposed to exemplify anyway. The whole point was that it was 109 GKs standing as one against Angron rather than 109 standing separately without care what happens to their battle-brothers.


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## Sturmovic (Jun 18, 2011)

The_Reaper said:


> I agree with you that there is a certainly curiosity in the story but there is also a hint of coldness, such as his interactions with Darford as he sometimes ignores him or shows him a hint of aggression. But the intresting part about Hyperion's personality is indeed his curiosity such as his interactions with Vasilla, Annika, etc and how they view things which also gives him something to think about. I personally like this balance and how ADB portrays Hyperion, not too human and not too inhuman or too ruthless, something inbetween. His portrayal of Hyperion gives us more insight and something to relate to even a little, which makes it an interesting read. Honestly I think if space marines were portrayed as cold ruthless killing machines throughout the story it would be hard to relate to, probably something like basic necron warriors.


Agreed. Hyperion may have the body and instincts of a killing machine, but he's also defined by his rationality, his mission to protect humanity (hence partly his curiosity about those he's meant to protect) and his ties to his battle-brothers.

I think we can all agree that the Emperor's Gift is one of the top 40k novels out there.


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