# How do i beat a Deathwing army and Black Templar army w/ CSM?



## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Hello everyone, i'm a new member here and i have been recently checking out all the articles on this site for better ways to improve my 40k gaming my chaos space marine army. I have posted this question because i plan on going against a two buddies of mine who have fallen to the lies of the emperor (no offense to any imperials out there. ) and are sending their forces out to crush me in a 2v1 1500 pt game (they will be dividing up there side of the points). So far i have found out that one will be a Deathwing termie army and the other will be a Black Templars army. My question is.... how best for a csm army to go against such hardcore space marine forces? So far I am limited in money spending right now and i am using two chaos battleforces sets and i have a defiler and 10 khorne bloodletters. my army is comprised of:

(this list is not a full 1500 pts list.)
HQ:
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Kharn the Betrayer (converted Khorne champ)

Sorcerer- either MoS w/ LoS, or MoT w/ Warptime and Wind of chaos

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Elites
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1x6 Chosen w/ 4 plasma guns, Missle Launcher.

1x5 Possesed Chaos Marines /champ
( this is really not one i would put, but i needed to use up some points and yes i know they are useless without proper good luck in rolling for there special ability.)

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Troops
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2x 8 Khorne Berskerkers have a power fist and 2 plasma pistols w/ Rhino (daemonic possesed)

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Heavy Support
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Defiler- w/ 2 extra CC arms or Reaper Autocannon /1 extra CC arm

1 or 2 Obliterators

This list is still incomplete and it would be really appreciated if i can get some insight from you fellow gamers on how to improve it for my up coming battle. I kinda feel doomed at the moment with some of the emperor's finest going against me, but i feel i can find some hope here. Any help would be awsome! Also if you have any tips or tricks on how to deal with the units they use plz post. thank you.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Note: also if i have left out any valuable information that might help, plz post stating what it is and ill be glad to post.


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## Doombreed (Dec 20, 2009)

I can't go real in deepth but I would say take a fair amount of anti-infantry like defilers, vindicators, obliterators. Deathwing don't have a lot of numbers on there side but rely on the Termi-LRaider assult so maybe try to throw some tie-up units at them to slow them down. BTemplars are almost the same but choose to use faster assualt units like assualt marines and the BTemplar special movement.

Bring a lot of firepower and choose your targets carefully because 9 times out of 10 they will beat you in combat if not thinned down.

Welcome to the Heresy. There are a lot of cool people to learn from and talk to. Good luck


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## Champion Auzias (Apr 30, 2009)

As a Templar player, I have to say you will have a tough time in combat with us if we get teh charge with our large number of attacks, ablative wounds and worst of all, tons of rerolls to hit. Large templates from things like Defilers and Vindis are yer best bet at thinning hte horde, but be wary, if we lose people from shooting, we surge ever closer. Kharn and the serkers might do damn well, but you'll have to get the charge. The defilers might do good in CC against them as well, if you can shoot out the melta-marine/hidden Pfist that if he is a smart templar player, he will have in his squad. If those get near ANY of your vehicles, wave goodbye. Maybe hose them down with plasma-fire from your serkers and Oblits?


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

thank you for your posts. but i was also wondering How could i best counter the terminators they might field? and should i focus on their whole army or is there any key units i could kill that way they would lose some advantage? i realize that i need alot of guns with low AP and high strength and alot of power weapons and plasma and melta to deal with their pesky armor saves... which kind of sorcerer would be good for this kind of situation?


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## Champion Auzias (Apr 30, 2009)

Templar strength comes from anything with a WS Value- Dreads and huge troop choices will cause some major hurt as they all get rerolls. The HQs and Special characters are powerful- but they aren't what to kill. Kill troop chices and dreads with huge templates. As for termies, I've had the most luck with saturated fire- shoot them with many guns; tons and tons of shots equal tons of forced saves. They have to fail sometime. Melta guns, plasma cannons, and lascannons also work well if you want to use your tank killing power against them. 

As I am not at all Familiar with Chaos, I've never fought a Chaos player, let alone seen a codex, I'm not sure what sorc could help you. As for a Deamon Prince, Lash could be very useful in securing a charge for yourself. With zeal, when they pass unless thay have chaplains they have to move towards the closest enemy unit- you can use this to kite them to a mean unit that will mince them hard. Also remember- if Templar FAIL their zeal save, they don't charge foward- they fall back. You can use this to chase them off a board they they fail alot.


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## Mindlessness (Dec 22, 2009)

Get a prince or sorcerer with lash deffinetly. It'll annoy the hell out of the BT player, it's basicly anti zeal. Also I'd say Plague Marines with Plasma guns, it'll help thin out the MASSIVE zeal squads. Agenst deathwing, I've never played agesnt them, I'd say consntrated firepower though, anything S7+ will be his bain.

Also, might want to consider a squad of 10 possessed with a chaos lord in them, most people don't like possessed, I think there handy esspcially if you get lucky and get Feel No Pain/Power weapons. 10 possessed on the charge with a chaos lord with mark of slannesh. Thats roughly on a good roll 11 instant kill attacks and 21 power weapon attacks from the possessed. It kinda hurts.

As for ranged firepower, A vindicator and a defiler are a good idea, the battle cannon on the defiler/Vindi are amazing when teamed with lash. Also you could try some noise boys. There a beast unit for thinning marines with a VF blastmaster, may not kill that many marines, but the pinning will help. Also if allowed to charge I5 with the Doom Siren is amazing.

Thats my 2C worth, hope it helped


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

thx. mindless it did. never thought of a Lash and Defiler combo. the lash will definatly keep the black templars from closing in and it might even keep the terminators out of reach of my guys. if i could use the lash effectively i can just plaster them with plasma fire and defilers and obliterators while using a squad of zerks to keep them at bay if they get close enough. my other zerks with kharn could then swing around and charge any long range fire support they might have.


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## Broken Sword (Jan 5, 2009)

Mindlessness said:


> Also, might want to consider a squad of 10 possessed with a chaos lord in them, most people don't like possessed, I think there handy esspcially if you get lucky and get Feel No Pain/Power weapons. 10 possessed on the charge with a chaos lord with mark of slannesh. Thats roughly on a good roll 11 instant kill attacks and 21 power weapon attacks from the possessed. It kinda hurts.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## khorneflake (Jul 11, 2008)

i would highly reccomend 6 Obliterators. the multi meltas will take care of the land raiders and the plasma cannons and plasma guns will not be fun for terminatores and bikers and even speeders. also (people may not like this but whatever) Chaos Dreadnaughts will exceed at destroying anything in the army.yes, i know 6 termies are 450 pts, but they will shred a 260 pt land raider and the accompanying 250-point terminator squad. or they can shoot down a squad of land speeders. as for defliers, go big or go home. use 2 or more. i would personally run 2 defilers and 3 oblits. as for your chosen, i would give them mark of slaneesh and 4 pairs lightning claws, melta bombs, and a plasma gun.


here are the perks
1: outflank and infiltrate
2: 16 power weapon attacks that re-roll to wound. this will kill at least 7 DTs
3: I5 they strike first
3: melta bombs for land raiders, dreads, and other vehicles.


Also, if you're going to shoot at any black templars, make sure you'll get the job done. dont tshoot to hurt, shoot to kill.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

i was wondering... would giving a chaos dread 2 CC arms be a good thing because any roll of 2-6 on the crazed table would be a good thing, especially the six because it would allow the dread to run and have fleet which would then tie up troops and kill them. especailly usefull against black templars who eat troops for breakfast with all there attacks but cant do much against a av 12 dread with str 10 attacks.


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## khorneflake (Jul 11, 2008)

exactly. that is how you run a Chaos Dreadnaught. it uses the benefits and ignores the drawbacks. when you have 5 str 10 attacks running at you, the guy will panic and overcompensate for it. then, you can use the oblits to shoot back and kill everything with a shootign capacity. also consider that in a chosen squad, you can snag a 25 point pair of lightning claws/power weapon. and you can take 4 of them. and you can outflank. and you can give marks. the chosen are the 2nd most underrated unit in the book.


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## World Eater (Aug 31, 2008)

Hail,

I play Chaos, BT and Deathwing so I think I can help.

First off, their armies are roughly 750 points, right?
Deathwing list will look like this:

Belial (character in termie armour) 130

2 squads of 5 Deathwing terminators 430

and maybe a dread or Interragator Chaplain in termie armour.

So for Deathwing you're looking at 11 to 12 terminators and a possible Dreadnaught.

Black Templar will look like this:

Emperor's Champion with accept any challenge 140

2 squads of 10 Iniates, power fist melta gun 370

leaving room for a Marshall kitted out or a couple of light vehicles, but not much( at worst a LR Crusader for 1 of the Iniate squads).

Terminators are severely allergic to ap2 weaponry, so plasma guns are a great choice(your chosen squad is set up nicely, drop the missile launcher) and the plasma helps versus Black Templar as well.
Kharn will give the termies nightmares and the Templar as well, since he's well suited for cc. 
Keep the 2 Berzerker squads, for they can hold their own versus BT, but make sure you soften up the Iniates with some defiler/Obliterator fire first. Templars are tough in cc and will not run either.

Other units to add, perhaps another Chosen squad with 4 plasma/melta guns.

The Sorceror could be a very bad choice if the BT player knows of his possible inclusion to your list. Drop him in favour for a Khorne Lord with a Bloodfeeder(yes the BF is unreliable but it could wipe out entire squads Termies, BT whatever they can throw at you).

I know about the money situation, but 2 squads of CSMs with either 2 plasma guns or 2 melta guns would round out the force, give some backup, and have the means to still hurt both Deathwing and BT as well.

Example List:

HQ1 - Kharn 165

HQ2 - Chaos Lord with MoK, BloodFeeder, 140

Elite 1 - 5 Chosen, 4 plasma guns, rhino 185

Elite 2 - same as Elite 1 185

Troop 1 - 8 Berzerkers, Champ, PF 208

Troop 2 - same as troop 1 208

Troop 3 - 10 CSMs, 2 plasma guns 180

Heavy support 1 - Defiler cc weapons upgrade 150

Heavy support 2 - 1 Obliterator 75

Total 1496

You could also drop 1 chosen squad or the CSMs for 2 more Obliterators.

Have Kharn and the Chaos Lord each run with the Berzerkers.

BFTBG!!

World Eater


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## Mastermime (Mar 27, 2009)

As a chaos player I have to agree with World Eater, the Blood Feeder will mangle anything it touches.

From personal experience I cannot reccomend Obliterators enough, they are utter monsters, who I have had simply shrug off battle cannon rounds and weather entire shooting phases aimed soley at them. They can take some serious punishment and dish it out exactly as prescribed, and with two wounds apiece and five points cheaper than those loyalist terminators they are an absolute bargain to boot.

I would definitley take the extra squad of CSM and drop the possessed for an oblit or two.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Thx for the advise guys!  means alot to me to know i got fellow chaos players there to help those in need. (though it is highly not recommened for chaos to do because it makes us look to good, haha. lol) 

World eater, i like the list you put up! :") its very killy on the heavily armoured.

i have done several simulations and have just realized this: Kharn does not do well against terminators, especially assualt termies if they survive the initial assualt by Kharn. Any powerfist or Thunderhammer that gets a lucky hit on him and he fails to save with his invulnerable, he is basically toast for he lacks any immunity to insta death of any kind.  I figured if i can deal with termies of both armies by just staying out of assault range and shooting the crap out of them with plasma weaponry (i will have to survive lots of storm bolters thou.) I will have to focus alot of attention on them also when there alone that way to deal with them quicker. more dead termies, less pressure on me.  If they decide to bunch and keep there units close togethar to prevent being picked off then i would just make my defiler and obliterators jobs way easier with his Battlecannon and the Obli's plasma cannons. If i can just stay out of assaults for as long as possible while picking off their units and then going on the offensive when they are significantly weakened then my units will have a higher success rate at what they do best.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

World Eater said:


> Hail,
> 
> I play Chaos, BT and Deathwing so I think I can help.
> 
> ...


Would this be any better? just wondering. 
Updated example list:

HQ1 - Kharn 165

HQ2 - Chaos Lord with MoK, BloodFeeder, 140

Elite 1 - 5 Chosen, 5 plasma guns, rhino 200

Elite 2 - same as Elite 1 200

Troop 1 - 8 Berzerkers, Champ, PF, Rhino 243

Troop 2 - same as troop 1 243

Heavy support 1 - Defiler cc weapons upgrade 150

Heavy support 2 - 2 Obliterator 150

Total 1497

tell me what you think.

All i did was take out the 10 CSM squad witih 2 plasma guns and gave the chosen squads one more plasma gun so they had 5 full.
I also gave each Berserk squad a rhino also to deal with mobility, and i added a extra obliterator. I took out the 10 CSM because i just figured that they dont really dont do well against a army full of power armour loyalists and act more as fodder then anything. The 2 plasmas they had i thought would be better off in the chosen squads were there they are already plasma stocked so it would increase there anti power armour kill potential. I also was wondering.. would putting a few extra chosen in the chosen squads be a good idea? like 3 more for example? 8 chosen? it would help alot when they are getting casualties so that way they have a few dummy marines to take the wounds and not the precious plasma wielding dudes.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Oh also another thing that i like about Kharn. HE eats independant characters without instant kill weapons for breakfast!! lol Especially special characters for they hardly have powerfists or thunderhammers (Lysander and any other terminator character being a exception) I ran a simulation with Kharn fighting the Black Templars emperor's champ and against Heilbrich. He beat both as long as he got the charge.  He's a beast. lol His hight weapon skill is way more helpful then his invulnerable save when in CC. It seriously reduced the amount of attacks that were put against him when he had to eventually roll for his invul save.


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## World Eater (Aug 31, 2008)

Hail,

I didn't realize you had so many rhinos. You said something about money so I had thought maybe you only had 2. Rhinos are good additions in general, but I was thinking also since you'll be facing BT and Deathwing, most likely they will be closing in with you. So I thought to save on points and get more stuff. The CSM squad is nothing special but it is a 3rd Troop choice. Taking them out, leaves you with 2 Troops vs your opponents' 4 to 5. Could be a challenge for objectives.

Fine tuning army lists is one of the things that never gets old in 40k.


BFTBG!!

World Eater


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

Oh. were we being realistic about the list? lol because i only have 2 rhino's. but if need be i can probably get my hands on another. the money problem thus continues to hinder the growth of my army. >,<

The 1500 point game we plan to play is going to be annihalation so troop choices wont have much emphasis. also i will get rid of the two rhinos for the chosen and just let them infiltrate so they can harass the enemy early on. I will also bulk up the chosen to have 7 guys 5 plasmas and 2 bolters putting them at 202 points. the berserkers will get the rhinos. The two extra chosen models are the dummy models who's job is to take any unneccessary wounds. The only problem with that is that they cant be a subsitute for any model who suffers Gets Hot so i just have to take it as it comes.

and wow, Belial, master of the deathwing. for a character he is super cheap! lol
and i really dislike the Black templars ability to field lots of HQs. Emperors champ doesnt take up a HQ slot, and when you have a BT commander in a command squad he can also attach a Chaplain to the command squad without costing an additional HQ slot. so they could have up to 5 HQs at any given time. . One emperor's champion and 2 command squads with a marshall and chaplain.


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## Helvron (Jan 4, 2010)

Why fight the inevitable Dre... you can't stop my Templar army Dre, you will be slaughtered like a small dog by my rightous fury!

Oh and dud, be less worried about what army list can combat us and just focus on finishing up the units you got, cause i know you don't have a single squad finished... glue them together!! oh and start on your Defiler i wana see how pretty it will look when its finished!


------your Enemy G.-----​

....you beat me? :laugh:


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## Helvron (Jan 4, 2010)

Oh yeah and Dre consider yourself lucky, i can't use Helbrect unless i have an army of at least 1500pts. so its just going to be against the Emperors champ, and i am not sure if i will take the Accept any challenge or suffer not the unclean vow yet.


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

I shall crush you loyalist peasant! feel my wrath as i spill your blood and take your bones for my personal amusement and though you will be defeated fear not, for your sacrifice will be not in vain by our Lord Khorne!


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## ChaplainOrion (Jan 4, 2010)

Oh foul chaos beast you will face the emperoer's might soon so Nanananananaaa

Good luck in your game


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

I love how you got so much help dre and I love the fact that it is no longer relevent. :taunt: The Deathwing will come at you with storm bolter blazing...... my wolves on the other hand are a different story. (Sound of a chain sword being revved.):laugh:


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

I would rather face the SW then DW. hehe. 

"I've always regarded the Templars to be a last middle finger salute from Dorn to Guilliman after what went on during the inception of the Codex Astartes, which is interesting given the usual straight up and down nature of the Golden Primarch."


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

Why? i can make far cheaper terminator armies now. :so_happy:


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## XxDreMisterxX (Dec 23, 2009)

I still get Semi/Awsome guys! lol


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