# beasts of war and gw! sad news



## fatmantis (Jun 26, 2009)

so i just watched this and m y heart and thoughts go out to warren and his team. It is yet another example of GW's ultimate stupidity! As an indie retailer in china i simply dont understand why they work so hard to hurt companies in the US,Europe etc bet yet all but ignore the complete and utter mess that is happening in china! The manufacturing of fake GW products in china is simply amazing! and its all on line, i regularly report these sites to gw and yet nothing seems to happen.
Taobao on line shopping similar to ebay has and is totally out of control, people fight and lower their prices to the point where they sell product for almost 5$ more than it cost them. 
Gw hates people for "exploiting" their product or their image so to say, but they forget that with out peopl like beasts of war, mini wargaming and even little shops like me, not only would they have to start paying billions of dollars a year in advertising, but they wouldn't have a business.

come on GW it time you start looking at china now and stop punishing the good guys!


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## The 13th (Jul 7, 2013)

Its a real shame, I started as member of BoW around the same time that I joined Heresy-Online, its amazing how stupid GW are becoming.

It was FREE ADVERTISEMENT FOR YOU

Hello?

Dont you know what that means


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

And the day where you have to sign an end user agreement when you buy a GW mini inches ever closer.


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## Geist (Mar 9, 2010)

...GW, the relationship between yourself and your fans is one of the most bipolar things I've ever experienced. Besides a few exceptions(Centurion, I'm looking at you), every new model release is a joy to behold, and I look forward to new BL releases(at least from certain authors), but then you go and do something like this and induce a rage that destroys keyboards and leaves facial imprints in desks.


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## gen.ahab (Dec 22, 2009)

But what ya gunna do? GW pulls this shit on a fairly regular basis, so I'm not exactly blown away by this.


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## Stella Cadente (Dec 25, 2006)

I'm sure the GW fan community will let their anger be known, by doing nothing, and spending money.....


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## Kobrakai (Jul 25, 2008)

Wow .. now this is a surprise.

Sorry to hear this guys! Good luck with your future ventures!


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

FFS... you guys are overlooking key facts to the situation.

GW didn't want its products leaked early... Wayland leaked those products early to Beasts of War... Beasts of War, despite their claims, were a part of Wayland, so GW legal action against them was completely above board.

Seriously... 'Oh no, Games Workshops asked someone to not leak they're products early so competators can see them and create their own competing products... They're evil!'

How super-special-awesome can you get? That's what this boils down to. GW trying to protect its IP. 

'But Leaking products hurts no-one....'

Except as the OP pointed out, we have china knocking out fake products by the ton... We had the likes of Chapterhouse turning out shoddy alternatives... If GW don't try to protect their IP, it gives free reign for anyone to rip them off... and in the long run, GW goes bust. Its the same with any company and product.

Also, what the OP doesn't realise is that the Chinese Government pretty much lets these companies do this... hell, do you realise how many fake Chinese starbucks their are, and fake apple stores and so on? China doesn't give a shit about people producing fakes there, which is why GW does things like this to protect its interests in the law abiding western world.

Get it through your Internet connection and on your computer... GW isn't to blaim here. They're just trying to protect their business so that people can continue to enjoy the hobby.

No insulting people's intelligence or name calling please. ~ Zion


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## Words_of_Truth (Sep 20, 2007)

This coupled with the lackluster down sized Gamesday, high price increases makes it increasingly evident that GW is all about the money and the hobby aspect of the game is taking a major back seat. There better be a pay off for us the consumer if they are going out of their way to do all this, but I failed to see any example of that.

I'm all for them protecting their IP but there's only so far you can go before you begin to start punishing the law abiding consumers for the sake of the law breakers and that's not right.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

So whats happened then ?


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## fatmantis (Jun 26, 2009)

GrizBe said:


> FFS... you guys are overlooking key facts to the situation.
> 
> Also, what the OP doesn't realise is that the Chinese Government pretty much lets these companies do this... hell, do you realise how many fake Chinese starbucks their are, and fake apple stores and so on? China doesn't give a shit about people producing fakes there, which is why GW does things like this to protect its interests in the law abiding western world.


excuse me but considering i have lived and worked in china for the past 5 years i am fully aware of how the government works here, and their attitude towards fake products! MY comment was not on the Chinese government but against gw not "enforcing their right to protect their Ip in china,they cannot punish or enforce one company with targeting every other company alswell, so if GW and they do have a head office here really pushed for it and cause enough noise things would happen in china. thats how it works here you can only pay off people until there's too much pressure.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

fatmantis said:


> excuse me but considering i have lived and worked in china for the past 5 years i am fully aware of how the government works here, and their attitude towards fake products! MY comment was not on the Chinese government but against gw not "enforcing their right to protect their Ip in china,they cannot punish or enforce one company with targeting every other company alswell, so if GW and they do have a head office here really pushed for it and cause enough noise things would happen in china. thats how it works here you can only pay off people until there's too much pressure.


You do realise that General Motors, BMW, Starbucks and many other companies that are larger and more powerful then GW have gone up against the Chinese government and been blanked by them? A Chinese car manufacturer has copied nearly a dozen designs, including the Mini and the Land Rover, and the Chinese government has said 'Nope, theres no claim, they're nothing alike' when they're pretty much identical.

For someone that claims to have lived and worked in China, your pretty poorly informed on how it works.




> This coupled with the lackluster down sized Gamesday, high price increases makes it increasingly evident that GW is all about the money and the hobby aspect of the game is taking a major back seat. There better be a pay off for us the consumer if they are going out of their way to do all this, but I failed to see any example of that.
> 
> I'm all for them protecting their IP but there's only so far you can go before you begin to start punishing the law abiding consumers for the sake of the law breakers and that's not right.


And I completely agree. Some of GW's decisions are downright stupid. Their pricing policies, not producing armies there are huge fanbase outcalls for.... But there is only so much a company can do. We know for a fact some of the models can take months to sculpt correctly, then its getting from the green to a point where they can be mass produced and so on... That takes time and money... and when another company can come along and pretty much copy and blatently rip off all that effort and hard work, its no wonder GW tries to protect it.

I mean how would you feel if you'd spent at least 6 months on something, only for someone to come out with their own cheap knock off 2 weeks later? While as a business you can argue its about protecting profits and sales, as artists and craftmen and as we know of the various designers, hobbyists themselves, no-one wants to see a large amount of time and effort put to waste.

I agree Games Day has gone crap this year... But they were running it at a massive loss each year, for not much appreciation. All the news of new models and products, the big displays... its all online at the end of the day, so why shell out the money to go see it, and why should GW choose to put on such an event when they could just put it all online themselves?

GW aren't perfect.. but could any of us do any better while providing the services they do, the products they do, the bricks and morter stores and jobs and so on?


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## fatmantis (Jun 26, 2009)

GrizBe said:


> For someone that claims to have lived and worked in China, your pretty poorly informed on how it works.
> ?


do not presume that i dont know about these company's,and that i "claim to have lived" in china, as i write this im there now.

China is far more guilty on a lot more things that dont make it to the outside world!


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## Chaplain-Grimaldus (Aug 4, 2013)

You have a fair point there mate.


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## GrizBe (May 12, 2010)

fatmantis said:


> do not presume that i dont know about these company's,and that i "claim to have lived" in china, as i write this im there now.
> 
> China is far more guilty on a lot more things that dont make it to the outside world!


Yet you assume that pressure from the outside world is going to change it, when they just continue to ignore it and squat happens....


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## Jezlad (Oct 14, 2006)

http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/10/games-workshop-awakens-beast.html

My opinions are here.


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## fatmantis (Jun 26, 2009)

GrizBe said:


> Yet you assume that pressure from the outside world is going to change it, when they just continue to ignore it and squat happens....


i do not presume anything!! i see it everyday at a local level in the mall where my shop is, the local government regularly check for fake or illegal goods. in my original post i referenced Taobao. which are small time people manufacturing fake gw products. that usually dont have the money or backing to fight the government.. i have helped close a few of them down with GW"s help.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

Errr ignore this.


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## MidnightSun (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm honestly surprised BoW lasted this long. Their 'Dark Angels Week' and the various Tau rumour/new release review were abominations.






_'I think it's a disgrace, I think the book should be taken back, I think it should be pulp, I think a new edition should be written'._

_'I think it's a disgraceful way to treat your staff, because somebody's been put under pressure on this book, because they haven't been able to test it, it's clear now that that's the case, and I think it's disgraceful for your customers that crap should get out the door.'_

Yeah, GW are definitely going to stand for that being on Youtube.

I have no sympathy for Beasts of War.

Midnight


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## Zion (May 31, 2011)

I'm not surprised this happened to BoW. As they admit, they've had a number of C&Ds that lead up to this so it was only a matter of time before the tightened the screws.

And just a friendly reminder:
Name calling, and insults are not allowed. If you want to disagree with people, do so in a mature, adult manner.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

If I had a product for sale the last thing I'd want is the mush-mouthed idiots from BoW promoting it. They disseminated false info and idiotic generalizations like "Bugs suck" muuuuch more than they helped sell any product.

Ya for GW. Fuck BoW .


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## tu_shan82 (Mar 7, 2008)

To be honest I couldn't really give a shit. They broke the rules, they suffering as a result. GW are simply protecting their IP. Yes GW do some pretty dick things like leaving armies going unupdated for a decade, sometimes even longer and don't get me started about their decision to stop companies like Wayland shipping to Australia where I live, but in this instance I think that they're in the right. To be honest I stopped going to BoW around about the time of the 5th edition BA codex release because of all the homophobic comments they were making. I found their "jokes" about the nipples on the Sanguinary Guard and the "Sanguinors Blessing" to be fucking juvanile, and as the bi-curious, older brother of a young gay guy, I though it was very hurtful. Shame, shame, shame. Shame on you BoW.


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## falcoso (Apr 7, 2012)

I really don't see what the issue is here, of course GW are going to do this when BoW are leaking info before they have been released, in fact if you could be bothered you could copy up most of the rules for an army by listening to what they are saying and not have to worry about buying a dex. And BoW are juvenile, and very rarely doa ny promoting and more rip on GW.


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## morfangdakka (Dec 31, 2006)

I understand GW doing this when it comes to the new release stuff being shown early but I think GW legal would be more useful going after all the people making knockoffs in China and Russia. I think the knock offs hurt Gw's products and image more than someone talking about the newest thing GW releasing.


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## DeathKlokk (Jun 9, 2008)

It's a question of return on investment. Spend a small amount on a C&D that a small company has no hope of fighting or waste a ton of cash fighting an entire governmental system famous for corruption.


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## imm0rtal reaper (Jul 15, 2008)

*Warning, wall of text inbound*

I understand where people are coming from when they say GW were in the right. Yes, Beast of War have uploaded copyrighted images owned by GW before release on several occasions. Personally, I have no problem with this, but I understand the legal standpoint. 

However, any argument that stopping leaks is in any way GW attempting to stop copycats in Asia and Russia, or 3rd party sellers making "imitations" is, in my own opinion of course, a crock of bumbum fudge. 

You think just because they don't see the miniatures for a few more weeks or months means they've not going to recast/imitate the unit? 

Games Workshop don't like the fact that a lot of people visit Beasts of War and they (and I'd say a good percentage of the rest of the internet) has been "slagging off" (for want of a better term) GW in increasing amounts as time has gone. 

Instead of listening to the community, telling them that X product is of a subpar standard compared to other releases. Or that the annual event they attended this year took place during the day (which is where most similarities with it's namesake end). Games Workshop are choosing to silence the more vocal stations. 

I think Games Workshop are pushing towards a singularity. They want every scrap of traffic heading to their site/stores. 

Each year they tighten the noose on independent retailers (pushing to make GW stores and GW online the only place to buy GW). 

They come down harder and harder on the 3rd party, who in most cases don't start thinking "yeah let's suckle GW's profits." but rather "The rules for this unit are pretty cool, shame there is no model for it. I should make one people can use until GW release theirs", or "That particular unit is pretty pricey, I'm sure some people would appreciate a more budget option." 

They crack down more and more on "news" sites that use their images and leak their products. They want every hobbyist (becuase, clearly, GW alone _is_ the hobby) visiting their site and stores to see the latest releases. 

All that is fair enough. GW want's all the pie and no-one else to have any. But they forget that the majority of these places they're determined to quell are giving them free advertising. 

There are many people who wouldn't have gotten into the hobby if it weren't for their friendly (non-GW) local store. There are many people who's enthusiasm for the hobby would have died if it weren't for the great online communities in forums/news sites/ youtube. I myself would have been done with the hobby in general if it weren't for this site keeping my enthusiasm up while I still was involved with GW stuff. 

Games Workshop could grab the community by the balls and amaze everyone if they made a few small changes (which I will now list, for those of you still conscious at this point) 

- Embrace The community sites: If Beasts of War (for example) do an unboxing of a new kit that you like, post a link to it on your site! If Heresy has a really good discussion on Space Marine Tactics, you guessed it, acknowledge them! 

- Embrace "viral" marketing. Start showing greens/pre-release images. drum up excitement in the community about your upcoming releases. You know, exactly what used to happen before you locked down the wider community doing it?

- Give something back! Send some of the new release stuff out into the community to be reviewed. Pretty much every other company in the industry does it (and are glad to). Even video games companies (which, on the whole, make a fuckton more money than you/have much bigger marketing schemes than you) do it. For that small amount of money per release, you're changing the community's perception of you.

- Sale: Now, you'll all be scoffing at this, which is in part, the problem. Almost every other company, for every other product, regardless of industry, holds sales. 

For example, this year was the 30 year anniversary for Warhammer Fantasy. Can you imagine how the community would have lost its collective shit if GW had announced that during the month of July they were having a 10% off all Warhammer products?! I'd be willing to bet all the money I have (which I admit, is not a lot) that they would have made a bloody killing during that month. 

It's all about our perception of GW, which in regards to their PR, is on the whole (by most gamers) pretty negative. That 10% sale would turn that on it's head. "GW is having a sale? They're finally starting to care about the community?" 

These sales wouldn't need to happen often. One for the warhammer 30th, one for the release of the 3rd hobbit movie and one for the 30th of 40k. That's the next 4-5 years sorted. 

I've managed to stray quite far off topic here, so I apologise. But that is the nature of the beast (no pun intended). Once you start talking about GW, ultimately it comes down to A. Their extortionate prices and B. Their terrible relationship with the community. And the fact that those two points occur so consistently, should be enough of a red flag to GW that maybe it's time for a change. But no. 

*You keep on GW, you're doing great⸮*


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## Jacobite (Jan 26, 2007)

^ This a thousand times this.


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## Djinn24 (Jan 12, 2008)

A lot of what you at talking about Reaper they used to do. Who here remembers black boxes during 3rd and 4th edition. They had great and fun give a ways. They used to work independent stores a lot.


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## ChaosRedCorsairLord (Apr 17, 2009)

I find it quite funny that GW always berates these companies for being 'freeloaders', who contribute nothing to the hobby, when (at least in my opinion) in some ways the opposite seems to be true. Other than actually producing the models and rules GW (at least from what I've seen) does little to 'further' the hobby. 

When I want modelling advice, painting advice, army list suggestions, unit tactics, or just inspiration for future models/armies (not to mention actual games, tournaments, etc.); Where do I go? White dwarf, haha that's funny; The GW website, nope they've removed most of the articles; My local GW store, occasionally, but they've cut down on the game and hobby space in the store quite substantially.

When I want all those things I come to Heresy, or BoW, or 3++, or Faeit212, or one of the 100's of other blogs, forums and 3rd party stores, which contribute to this hobby simply because they love it.


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## humakt (Jan 2, 2008)

I think GW get a bad rap for wanting to control thier own products release information. I think that rumours make people more excited about the products not less and GW have cottoned onto this some time ago. Give people a little and they want more. Give people a tiny tiny teaser and they get rabid for information. They obvioulsy thought that there was a conflict with BoW and have acted accordingly.

The trouble for GW is they are damned if they do something and damned if they don't.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

ChaosRedCorsairLord said:


> I find it quite funny that GW always berates these companies for being 'freeloaders', who contribute nothing to the hobby, when (at least in my opinion) in some ways the opposite seems to be true. Other than actually producing the models and rules GW (at least from what I've seen) does little to 'further' the hobby.
> 
> When I want modelling advice, painting advice, army list suggestions, unit tactics, or just inspiration for future models/armies (not to mention actual games, tournaments, etc.); Where do I go? White dwarf, haha that's funny; The GW website, nope they've removed most of the articles; My local GW store, occasionally, but they've cut down on the game and hobby space in the store quite substantially.
> 
> When I want all those things I come to Heresy, or BoW, or 3++, or Faeit212, or one of the 100's of other blogs, forums and 3rd party stores, which contribute to this hobby simply because they love it.


but your confusing fan run forums and blogs with small indie businesses who are trying to make a profit, The companies who GW consider freeloaders are the ones who are making profit out of GWs investment(like me for example), GW has an issue with companies who undercut GW because GW need to support the store system because it believes the store system is what made it successful and continues to do so and as nobody else has been able to bump them off the top spot for 30 years its hard to argue with them and there business model, GW may act like the spoilt kid who likes to snatch his toys away ,but at the end of the day they are his toys, BOW and Wayland maybe some how believe the GW rules some how dont apply to them but turns out they do, What ever happened to Wayland shipping internationally like they promised 2 years ago? hadnt they worked out a loop hole ?

part of the Communitys problem is that its under some illusion that GW somehow owes them something, Like free online articles, the hobby existed perfectly well before the net and if you wanted to read an painting article you forked out for WD and read about how the eavy metal team did it or you worked it out using trial and error. 

Im not saying GW couldnt do more, im not saying that they couldnt use more social media and many other things to there advantage but considering that they just get a shit ton of bitching when they try its easier just to carry on with what works .


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## SilverTabby (Jul 31, 2009)

bitsandkits said:


> but your confusing fan run forums and blogs with small indie businesses who are trying to make a profit, The companies who GW consider freeloaders are the ones who are making profit out of GWs investment(like me for example), GW has an issue with companies who undercut GW because GW need to support the store system because it believes the store system is what made it successful and continues to do so and as nobody else has been able to bump them off the top spot for 30 years its hard to argue with them and there business model, GW may act like the spoilt kid who likes to snatch his toys away ,but at the end of the day they are his toys, BOW and Wayland maybe some how believe the GW rules some how dont apply to them but turns out they do, What ever happened to Wayland shipping internationally like they promised 2 years ago? hadnt they worked out a loop hole ?
> 
> part of the Communitys problem is that its under some illusion that GW somehow owes them something, Like free online articles, the hobby existed perfectly well before the net and if you wanted to read an painting article you forked out for WD and read about how the eavy metal team did it or you worked it out using trial and error.
> 
> Im not saying GW couldnt do more, im not saying that they couldnt use more social media and many other things to there advantage but considering that they just get a shit ton of bitching when they try its easier just to carry on with what works .


This. Very much this. 

If I do something for someone, and all I get in responce is "you did it wrong, you didn't do enough, why didn't you do this too?", I sure as hell don't do it again for them. 

Did even one person who used all the facilities ever make the effort to say thank you? Did anyone write in to do anything but complain or critisise? Because that's all that ever turned up in my department. 

I don't work there any more, and I don't condone not doing things, but I completely empathise with the feeling of "why should we bother?"


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## Veteran Sergeant (May 17, 2012)

GrizBe nailed it on the head. Regardless of the final content being pushed out, the guys at BoW and Wayland were intentionally violating the contractual agreements about early releasing information and products. It was never up to them to decide what was, or wasn't acceptable. They were told. It's GW's IP and their products to do with as they please. Everyone else played by the rules.

And they can't protect themselves in China and Russia. As if a small potatoes company like GW is going to be able to affect their all but government sanctioned copyright infringement when huge corporations have taken decades to even make a dent in it? Apple was forced to pay sixty million dollars to a Chinese company squatting on the iPad copyright after they fraudulently sold the rights to Apple and then claimed the Chinese rights weren't included because they were owned by a mainland Chinese subsidiary. You can guarantee pretty much every GW trademark is already owned in China by a first-to-file trademark squatter, and it would be trying to fight a battle up a sheer cliff to get them back without paying through the nose.


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## Cypher871 (Aug 2, 2009)

I wish I could give a shit about this but I just can't. Boohoo, big bad GW blah blah blah. We get this same boring drama every year...:suicide:


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