# Getting killed by Guard pie plates



## Brian007 (Aug 8, 2008)

Hello, I need some help against Guard. Every time I play my one buddy who plays Guard I get killed. Turn 1 and 2 is nothing more than his hidden tanks dropping large S10 blast plates on me that kill everything they hit. He has no line of site and he said he does not need it. 
What can I do about these plates of death crashing down on me? He takes out my long range things first or my transports first so I have to foot slog it across the table and guess what he drops on me while I am walking across the table? Yes more plates of death.

I play blood angels and tau at this moment.

I just can not see the way around thesae dam plates.


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## The Golden Sons (Apr 15, 2012)

If you play Blood angels, maybe you should run a descent of angels list. Drop assualt, with Dante and a retinue with infernos pistols to pop a big tank and a few drop pods of dreadnaughts. Could catch him off guard.

Other then that, what kind of lists do you usually run?


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

I play IG and yes your IG opponent can fire at you without needing LOS....some Artillery has 'indirect' fire...Manticore, Basilisk, Griffon, Colossus.

BA are a fast mobile army so I'd make use of that speed, including DOA if you make use of that in your list...get up in his face because IG Artillery is only AV12/10/10 and our Infantry is only T3. That said, he can bubblewrap his Artillery with Infantry so can tarpit your units.

Tau have Railguns and Pods aplenty, and those Markerlights, so you can target his Artillery from long range, and Tau is as good as IG at shooting so it's a fairly even match in that regard. Plus if you have Suits you can move and shoot so LOS shouldn't be that much of an issue for you. Plus you can deepstrike so, like with your BA, get up in his face and destroy his Artillery with Melta etc.

Still, there's bound to be BA and Tau players who can help you far better than I can.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

With my BA I give them large scary targets to shoot at, Termies in a LR while my Assault Marines run every turn and them tear him to bits using Power Fists and inferno pistols. 

Also the Stormraven and Land Speeder can be very helpful. 

However I don't think you can fire many if any of the LR weapons without LOS but then with my IG i normally have so many tanks i can always get them to shoot


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## HOBO (Dec 7, 2007)

Hellados said:


> However I don't think you can fire many if any of the LR weapons without LOS but then with my IG i normally have so many tanks i can always get them to shoot


Hmmm, I thought he was talking about Artillery not Russes, as the only Russ with S10 is the Demolisher and it's only 24" range, so not exactly dropping lots of pie-plates all over the board.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

He probably is talking about Basilisks, which can barrage. Make sure to remind him that barrage weapons used in this way scatter 3d6 instead of 2d6.


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## Hellados (Sep 16, 2009)

and that the basis have a minimum range, get too close and they can;t shoot you (this has saved my BA a fair few times tbh


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

Hellados said:


> and that the basis have a minimum range, get too close and they can;t shoot you (this has saved my BA a fair few times tbh


They can shoot you, just not indirectly. So he will fire like a russ. Less scatter, be careful.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

They can shoot directly but then need LOS. So if you can approach inside that minimum fire range and stay hidden, he has to move to see you. But I imagine more than one barrage capable vehicle is present and in opposite corners if possible. Drop Pod some Dreadnoughts with Melta or even duel autocannons(as I recall Basilisks are not well armoured) on one or both of them if you have or use Dante to get the other. With Melta, you'll at least stun them and silence the guns.

Tau is trickier. But you can use rail guns or Crisis suits. It is difficult for a vehicle to be blocked from LOS on all sides and a carefully positioned Broadside or Hammerhead should be able to take them out. Crisis suits with Shield Drones should be able to rwach the Basilisks and use Fusion weapons, or could deep strike. If advancing, don't forget the free assault move. Another thing that might work is a Piranha. They aren't heavily armoured but can move fast enough to get cover the first turn and then move into melta range with a fusion weapon the next.

The trick with either army is to move in quick and silence the big guns. Hopefully the 3d6 scatter will keep the slower elements alive longer. Just make sure you stay out of LOS until ready to strike. Direct fire or LOS barrage will only scatter 2d6. And don't ignore the rest of his army obviously.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

JelloSea said:


> They can shoot you, just not indirectly. So he will fire like a russ. Less scatter, be careful.


nope, most of the artillery has a minimum range, doesnt matter how they are firing.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

mcmuffin said:


> nope, most of the artillery has a minimum range, doesnt matter how they are firing.


if you are firing an ordnance barrage weapon you can either fire it as a barrage weapon, with the minimum range, and a 2D6 scatter

or you can fire it normally, ignoring the minimum range, and the scatter is 2D6 - BS


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

shit, yeah. too early for rules.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

i had to go check it aswell


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## Antonius (Jan 10, 2012)

If you're footslogging - spread out as much as humanly possible. Blast templates become MUCH MUCH less painful to you (and you might even get some cover save as a reward). Basilisks have crap minimum range (36"), so you are almost totally safe from them until you're in LoS of one. Blast templates are horrible against units falling out of transports, so armour saturation is key. 

If you're BA (mech), i would say rush your rhinos forward T1, popping smoke this turn (as long as you get first turn). Guard Pieplates are less effective against the boxes than their contents (and for tanks like russes, they also waste firepower), so minimise their chances of opening the boxes in the first place (Armour saturation, killing Autocannon HWS units/Vendettas). Oh and also if you have a Stormraven, that fast MM is always handy to kill off that vital support unit to the IG army.

As HOBO said, Tau have a pretty fair matchup with IG, and Devilfishes are damned durable compared to chimeras and their associated tanks. Disruption Pods will ruin their day until meltaveterans join the party, and artillery is easy to shut down (Batteries - Griffon, Colossus, Basilisk and Medusa - are open topped). Medusae are also gimped because of the need of LoS and its comparatively short range, so take advantage of that. The Manticore, however, is a toughie (not open topped, Chimera Walling shenanigans often used because of model design, Bubble Wrapping), but as BA i would perhaps leave it in favour of AP3 wielding units (Russes/Medusas/Basilisks), OR get into CC with IG. CC against IG is loaded in your favour (generally speaking) compared to shooting - but watch for being tarpitted by the ol' power weapon blob with commissar - they can and will sponge a lot of punishment you send their way (and can deal some hurt courtesy of massed buried power weapons).

To summarise: Get blast templates overkilling a rhino/devilfish instead of murdering your infantry
Saturate and rush the enemy if you have the edge in CC
Take out the biggest guns FIRST, but do not forget the "can openers" and suppression fire units (Autocannon HWS, Hydras, Vendettas).

Hope that helps
Antonius (mech IG player)


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## TechPr1est (Nov 6, 2011)

ask him to play the next game as cities of death lol


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

Every IG player's worst nightmare is Deepstriking assault troops. Give your guys some melta guns, deep strike near his tanks, blow them up and next turn destroy his army with CC.


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## JelloSea (Apr 12, 2011)

A decent IG player wont give you the cc next turn. You wont be able to blow up enough with deep striking melta guns to truly hurt a competent IG player. He will have cover, you will scatter, you will need to be with in 6 inches to do well, you will need 4-6 units to deep strike on the same turn. Lots of variables go against you.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

Hooray for MSU


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## Arcane (Feb 17, 2009)

JelloSea said:


> A decent IG player wont give you the cc next turn. You wont be able to blow up enough with deep striking melta guns to truly hurt a competent IG player. He will have cover, you will scatter, you will need to be with in 6 inches to do well, you will need 4-6 units to deep strike on the same turn. Lots of variables go against you.


Yeah, such a tactic takes luck. Landing with indirect pie plates also takes luck.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

but with lots it gets easier


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

JelloSea said:


> A decent IG player wont give you the cc next turn. You wont be able to blow up enough with deep striking melta guns to truly hurt a competent IG player. He will have cover, you will scatter, you will need to be with in 6 inches to do well, you will need 4-6 units to deep strike on the same turn. Lots of variables go against you.


Well the only army that should be relying on it is BA, who have reliable scatter


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## Lipsidius1 (Apr 24, 2011)

I've had the same issues in the past and what I've decided to do is to ignore his tanks for the 1st few turns. In my last 2 fights I've split my BA army in 2. I'll have a drop pod/deep strike force and a stationary force that lays down supressive fire on the IG tanks from range. I infiltrate my Scout squads (2 w/locator beacons and camo-cloaks), then Scout move within 12" of his front line on either the left or right flank of his army. My buddy uses his infantry as fodder to protect his big guns and HQ. I then drop pod Tacs and deep strike ASMs within 6" of my Scouts. My Tacs lay down fire and provide cover for my ASMs as they are quite vulnerable on the turn they land. I deep strike the ASMs either behind the TACs or behind the Scouts (depending on spacing and terrain for cover). From here the ASMs can use there manuverability to get their hands on IG infantry.

While my Tacs and ASMs are closing in on IG infantry my stationary force of Dev. squads (2 squads w/4 Las-cannons each) are firing away at his tanks. I don't necessarily need to pop them, just keep them from shooting. If I can pop them that's bonus. Once my Tacs and ASMs get into CC, his tanks become inaffectual as he cannot shoot those pie plates at them.

So by splitting my force he now has to decide to either try and take out my long range weapons or take out my infantry. His infantry, though they outnumber me cannot handle the CC prowess of my BA. And by attacking only one flank his numbers aren't as staggering to deal with.

My long range weapons are also protected by 1) being in cover, usually a ruin and 2) by using a Tech Marine that improves cover by 1.

Hope this helps.


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## khrone forever (Dec 13, 2010)

i thought you had to choose the cover that the tech marine bolstered at the begging of the game, so you dont know which one will be necessary.

also a canny IG player will deploy in one corner, so his force cannot be split. also he will get a 4+ cover from using the infantry as a shield, he can then take out your Infantry with LRBT's/ massed lasgun fire. and then take out your long range with anything else


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## Obinhi (Dec 30, 2008)

Lipsidius1 said:


> I've had the same issues in the past and what I've decided to do is to ignore his tanks for the 1st few turns. In my last 2 fights I've split my BA army in 2. I'll have a drop pod/deep strike force and a stationary force that lays down supressive fire on the IG tanks from range. I infiltrate my Scout squads (2 w/locator beacons and camo-cloaks), then Scout move within 12" of his front line on either the left or right flank of his army. My buddy uses his infantry as fodder to protect his big guns and HQ. I then drop pod Tacs and deep strike ASMs within 6" of my Scouts. My Tacs lay down fire and provide cover for my ASMs as they are quite vulnerable on the turn they land. I deep strike the ASMs either behind the TACs or behind the Scouts (depending on spacing and terrain for cover). From here the ASMs can use there manuverability to get their hands on IG infantry.
> 
> While my Tacs and ASMs are closing in on IG infantry my stationary force of Dev. squads (2 squads w/4 Las-cannons each) are firing away at his tanks. I don't necessarily need to pop them, just keep them from shooting. If I can pop them that's bonus. Once my Tacs and ASMs get into CC, his tanks become inaffectual as he cannot shoot those pie plates at them.
> 
> ...


Not to piss in your corn flakes too much, but the devistators are expensive to get right against massed tanks, and when you deep strike you bunch up into a nice neat little bundle that a plasma cannon can deal with. I run IG with two LR with battle cannon, front las cannon and sponson plasma cannons. I tend to neuter a squad or vehicle every turn with both of them. then I take HWS or Mech Vets with meltas and plasma guns. Also any good IG player who expects CC will take a 30 man blob squad with a commisar and vet sgts with power weapons. You may get to take all of the wargear in the world, but it sucks having to carve up 25 dudes to get to the things that can hurt you. Not that I would ever suggest chargeing in with an inf squad unless its fire warriors, but I like to give my tar pit some teeth to make you SM players think twice about a charge. Cover is no biggie, as unlike SM players everyone else actually uses cover all the time, so again an experenced IG player can and should have an answer to that. (I dont have the codex on me but one of the LR varients ignores cover and others count cover from the blast hole, so low walls count for nuffin')

To put it another way, my IG mech vet army at 1000, 1500, and 1750 has yet to lose against a SM army ever. The one real loss they have is against a necron army with the death star list, every thing else is a clear win or a close victory for me. 

ALL OF THIS BEING SAID - I feel for you man, that sucks to get creamed by the IG tank list over and over again. stick to cover, stay out of LoS and try the dante list. Definately Drop pod the dreads with a blood fist and assult cannon. Be very careful about getting too close to the edge of the field where mishap land is. If Marbo ever shows up preform a blood sacrifice to make sure that demo charge lands on his ass and not you. 

Honestly a Sang Preist with ten assult dudes sounds like a waste but if you spam them and get in his face quick, fast and in a hurry you take away his targets. So really 30 assult merines with a Librarian for HQ and sang preists in each squad to shrug off the stray autocannon shell and what not. Take dreads for vehicles in drop pods like I said and if you can get locked into close combat the IG tanks get to sit on it and spin. Like its been said elsewhere if he is fireing indirect he must scatter, dont let him pull the 'its a bullseye it hits' crap, make him move that plate. hape this helps man good luck.


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## Lipsidius1 (Apr 24, 2011)

Some excellent points O, 1) my buddy and I play 3k games so the Devastators cost isn't an issue. For 190 though one can get a Devastators squad and 4 LCs. 2) massed tanks? There's only 3 heavy slots and rarely have I seen anyone field 9 LRs, Basilisks or any other configuration. 3) my buddy uses the IG blobs and since I attack a flank I'm only ever fighting 1 blob. 4) yes, you are correct that this does tend to bunch up SMs in 1 area, but with the Devastators hopefully doing their job those tanks won't be shooting much if at all. 5)other factors do come in to play, who goes 1st, mission, terrain, how much to keep in reserve and luck of course. When played well IG are tough as hell to fight, and maybe I've gotten lucky in my last couple of fights, but I was just throwing out some suggestions that worked for me. What I've come to learn when.fighting IG is that SMs need to get up close and personal real fast, so use drop pods, ASMs w/DOA,etc.


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## Iron Angel (Aug 2, 2009)

JelloSea said:


> A decent IG player wont give you the cc next turn. You wont be able to blow up enough with deep striking melta guns to truly hurt a competent IG player. He will have cover no he won't, why are you deep-striking where he can claim cover?, you will scatter BA have the ability to not scatter when deep-striking, you will need to be with in 6 inches to do well see previous, you will need 4-6 units to deep strike on the same turn hooray for MSU. Lots of variables go against you.


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## Obinhi (Dec 30, 2008)

:biggrin:


Lipsidius1 said:


> Some excellent points O, 1) my buddy and I play 3k games so the Devastators cost isn't an issue. For 190 though one can get a Devastators squad and 4 LCs. 2) massed tanks? There's only 3 heavy slots and rarely have I seen anyone field 9 LRs, Basilisks or any other configuration. 3) my buddy uses the IG blobs and since I attack a flank I'm only ever fighting 1 blob. 4) yes, you are correct that this does tend to bunch up SMs in 1 area, but with the Devastators hopefully doing their job those tanks won't be shooting much if at all. 5)other factors do come in to play, who goes 1st, mission, terrain, how much to keep in reserve and luck of course. When played well IG are tough as hell to fight, and maybe I've gotten lucky in my last couple of fights, but I was just throwing out some suggestions that worked for me. What I've come to learn when.fighting IG is that SMs need to get up close and personal real fast, so use drop pods, ASMs w/DOA,etc.


I hear you man. I do want to address your points, not because you are wrong because you're not, but to make my position more clear.

1. In 3k games go nuts, but in 1k you really cant sink 1/5 of your army into a unit that really is only good at being shot at:biggrin:

2. That was poor wording on my part, but I do tend to take 3 chimeras 2 LR and then whatever other vehicles I can, maybe a hellhound or something thats in the FA section.

3. Honestly blobs suck for everyone no matter how you slice it. Unless they are out in the open infront of God and everyone they are really hard to kill on account of cover. 

4. Ya but that is a big if, and when we play the if game we can go ahead and assume that my vets have demo charges and all that, the point is that plates will ruin the day of any Deep stike unit, and the plates that the IG bring to the table are extra dumb. I always take my tanks in pairs so if one gets shook up the other can still shoot.

5. I dont have too much on this, but I would caution the drop pods a bit, if you get caught ass out and dont kill the target you can get blasted to next week. Going back to the blob squad a 20 man unit can fire 54 shots onto a unit with in 12 if they get first rank fire. That sucks for anything, I dont care who you are. *Note, this is comming from a guy who can kill terminators with shotguns and mafisto with a psyker battle squad, an IG player not favored by the gods may have diffrent results...*

I will say IG needs that first salvo where the enemy is sets up and if you an shake us IG players up and make us chase dumb shit you can pick us apart. The best thing an IG guy can do is target priorty and focus fire on it. If you can cause us to split fire we cant do all that much, the big guns are scary but all you need to do is shake us up. Dont kill the tanks unless you have nothing else to kill off, once it cant shoot for the turn ignore it.


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## mcmuffin (Mar 1, 2009)

Iron Angel said:


> He wont have cover


The wonders of smoke continue to elude people


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## Obinhi (Dec 30, 2008)

mcmuffin said:


> The wonders of smoke continue to elude people


works once and then you cannot shoot, which for arty is what you need to do at all times, if it gets to the point where you are popping smoke to avoid melta guns it's already too late. You also assume that the arty popped smoke in expectation of a drop pod or DoA unless you really really know who you are playing, not likely.


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## Antonius (Jan 10, 2012)

Has anyone considered a mech rush with ASMs in UBERFAST rhinos??


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## Lipsidius1 (Apr 24, 2011)

Once again, excellent points O. This is why I enjoy both playing and discussing strategies for 40k. Very challenging!


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## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

Antonius said:


> Has anyone considered a mech rush with ASMs in UBERFAST Razorbacks??


fixxed it for you; and YES lots of people like BA's Razor rush, particularly with either Asscans or lasplas.


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## LukeValantine (Dec 2, 2008)

Don't have a lot of time to read through the other posts so I am not sure if this has already been brought up but...

Rhino's. Bring your own rhino sized craters, and then you will have a almost guaranteed 4+ cover if your vehicle gets wrecked or exploded. Just make sure to angle your vehicle so your potentially wrecked vehicle will obscures 50% of your unit.


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## Rems (Jun 20, 2011)

Another thing to consider is the terrain amount. 

Are you using the right amount of terrain? Too little and it's not wonder pie plates are cleaning you up (which they shouldn't really be doing if your playing on a table with enough cover). 

You need at least 25% of the table covered by terrain as per the rulebook. You want a variety of LOS blocking and non LOS blocking terrain and a balance of area to non area terrain. 

With a mech army and the proper amount of terrain it really shouldn't be too hard to get cover saves which drastically reduces the effectiveness of pie plates.

Building on Luke's point above your rhinos don't even have to be wrecked to provide cover. One or two angled properly can provide cover the the rest. Blow smoke for the one's providing cover and the leap frog your rhinos up the board.


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## The Meddler (Sep 25, 2010)

Surely kroot would be the best way to go? Get a two units of 10, outflank/infiltrate, then either shoot or preferably assault his artillery. 40 S4 attacks each auto hitting and glancing on sixes means 6-7 glancing hits on each basilisk, killing them.


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