# Versus... Ogre Kingdoms (7th)



## squeek

Hi all,

Continuing with the Fantasy Versus... series, next on the list is Ogre Kingdoms (suggested by Maximus and aM | Gunslinger). If you want to add your suggestions as to who Fantasy Versus should deal with next, go here for the general thread.

So, Ogre Kingdoms, how do you combat these hulking, multi-wound killing machines? Couple that with vast hordes of cheap Gnoblars and characters that are capable of going toe to toe with almost anyone in Fantasy. Though they are often named as one of the least competative armies in Fantasy, at club level they can cause upsets due to the sheer killing power of Ogres in close combat.

So how do you plan to combat them? Do you have a preferred unit or tactic that works every time? Do you prefer to mob them with cheap, disposable infantry or hang back and shoot them to bits? If you are one of the players that finds beating Ogres easy then perhaps you could share a few tips and tricks?


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## kungfoomasta

as VC i swarm them with skellies and shoot em up with magic if i get the right spells. also Knights of any sort are good for crushing em if you can manage to get the charge.


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## MaidenManiac

Sadly OK is the weakest army in WHFB, you dont need to be a genious to win against them. They have low LD on the Bulls, and since they are so very few they will need to take many panic tests which will fail.
An Ok army on 2k pts will number roughly 30 Ogres, give or take a few, splitted up in a bunch of quite small units. If you kill a model in a unit with shooting then shoot another unit with next unit. Ogres are prone to running away, totally opposed to what you understand fluffwise:angry:
Ogres cant spell the words rank-bonus simply due to extreme point costs which means that they must make atleast 5 wounds on a normal unit to have a chance of winning combat(presumed that the unit is 20+). This means that rank'n'file units will have a huge chance of winning on their own against OK. Thanks to current weapon-rule-fuckups(see below) they even dont have decent save modifiers meaning that units with good saves = death to normal Ogres. Spelled out this means Dwarves = autoloss. 
Due to their fear-causing and thanks to skellies and the likes bad WS they are alot better against undeads then living things. When units have less WS then the Ogres they really shine, sadly very few units does...

Ogre Kingdoms magic phase is a fun varriation to the game. It generally consists of lots of 1 dice casted spells. 3 boost various of the Ogres stats, one is a magic missile, one causes panic-test on a unit and one heals the Butcher himself, and yes all Butchers know all spells.

The OK armybook was written at the top height of the "nerf list era" which makes it screwed in a bunch of ways:
- Ogre Ironfists are supposed to be a shield+extra handweapon thing, but since the list was made in the "nerf-list" era you must pick. This was in the days when Orks were forced to pick if they wanted choppa bonus or extra attack. In short its outdated rule-wise. 
- Also their Ogre Club rule screws up just like the Ironfist rules above.
- Leadbelchers cant shoot every turn despite costing equal to a Blood Knight and have a huge chance of blowing themselves up when they missfire:suicide:
- Bull Charge. This is a complete joke atm:ireful2: The rule allowes Ogres that move more then 6 inch on their charge move to make 1 impact hit. This will never work game-wise however unless some freak-event happens. When the Ogres are positioned so that they _will_ charge you next turn just move all ahead to them, they will never gain the Bull Charge that way!
- Ogres really should have some psychologial bonus against "less then Ogre-sized opponents(aka food)", they are simply too bad on that part right now...
- Whilst charming the Slave Giant really really sucks. Worse attacks then normal Giants and not stubborn and only a slight point reduction is a fail.
- Big Names, the OK equivalent of Bloodline Powers/Virtues/Whatnot really shouldnt go on Magic Items like they do now. All of the names are quite bad, this simply makes noone consider them at all:alcoholic:
- Slaughtermasters(Lord lvl Wizard) shouldnt require a Tyrant in the army to be a legit pick, IE atm yu cant field him in under 3k pts :nono:

1 thing however should be noted: The Tyrant deserves his name *in all aspects*. This guy have serious chances of killing Bloodthirsters and the like on 1 round. He is the horror, period:wild:


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## Baalirock

The single best advice I can give against ogres is: Do NOT let them charge you. Bull Charge, while not nearly as frightening as it sounds, is still something that should be avoided, and is relatively easy to do so. Ogres are a lot faster than they look, so be careful. 

Shooting them works pretty well, as was mentioned by MaidenManiac. Their low leadership scores make them rather susceptible to panic, so knock a few wounds off and you'll send them packing.

Really, hit them before they hit you, and you shouldn't have any trouble.


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## arhain

Shoot, Shoot and then move right up into there face, so you can pick there nose's.


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## Vaz

They are an army of less than effective mosntrous creatures.

Monstrous Creatures for your own army are the perfect hold up, not to mention the (generally) higher movement is an excellent bonus, to stop the charge.

Line Holding Anvils, supported by Fast Cavalry are the way to beat them. I use my Warriors of Chaos as a good example, but Dwarfs (yes, Dwarfs), Empire and all Elves work extremely effective.

You anvil unit should be an elite unit - High Weapon Skill, Initiative, above average leadership, and with either a good save, or additional attacks. Funnily enough, Ogre Bulls are effective at holding up against Ogres. Toughness is an added bonus, but not so important. Leadership is good, in case the Ogres roll well.

Get a unit that can hold its ranks - 25 may sound a lot when you're holding a charge with Phoenix Guard/Swordmasters, Warriors/Chosen, Black Guard/Executioners, Eternal Guard, Hammerers with General/Ironbreakers or Greatswords/Flagellants, due to their high cost.

But it's really important. A static Combat resolution of +5 (3 ranks, banner, outnumber) is important, unless you'er going toe-to-toe with Monstrous infantry. This means that Ogres need to cause 4 wounds to even it up (due to most Ogres being in units of 6, with a Banner). Not good odds, even with the charge. You then have your retaliations. If they have managed to cause 4 wounds, you have a Champion remaining, and this is 2-3 attacks, at a higher level than they are. But wounds aren't important - holding is.

Next turn, use some Fast Cavalry - Marauders are the best at this, but at a Pinch, you can use Heavy Cavalry, but they are best charging their Ironguts/Maneaters/Yhetees.

You remove any ranks, and have a charge - Marauders have a Str 5 Charge, if Khornate, a unit of 5 can put out 11 Str 5 attacks, which Ogres have no defence against.

It's easy to outmaneuvre Ogres, and are too easy to beat, once you manage to gang up on them.


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## neilbatte

Cheers Vaz just what every Ogre general needs, people knowing how to beat what is possibly the worst list in the game Victories are hard enough to come by as it is. fortunately for me I like it when people take big blocks of infantry as I play an Ogre gun line army and my artillery dice love me.


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## zabo

neilbatte said:


> Cheers Vaz just what every Ogre general needs, people knowing how to beat what is possibly the worst list in the game Victories are hard enough to come by as it is. fortunately for me I like it when people take big blocks of infantry as I play an Ogre gun line army and my artillery dice love me.


I play ogre kingdoms as well and almost never use my bulls, or ironguts, in units of 6, ( use them in threes to give them more frontage ) I have no trouble with gunlines because I use gorgers and scrapluanchers which turn your cannons and huge blocks of infantry into dust, ogrekingdoms are hard to play but I bet I can take any of you to school.

Bull charge means that is easy for me to get a bunch of kills extra, so I never need to use standards whoever you guys are playing probably just started playing warhammer, and know nothing about playing ogrekingdoms.


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## Concrete Hero

zabo said:


> I play ogre kingdoms as well and a*lmost never use my bulls*, or ironguts, in units of 6, ( use them in threes to give them more frontage ) I have no trouble with gunlines because I use gorgers and scrapluanchers which turn your cannons and huge blocks of infantry into dust, ogrekingdoms are hard to play but I bet I can take any of you to school.
> 
> *Bull charge means that is easy for me to get a bunch of kills extra,* so I never need to use standards whoever you guys are playing probably just started playing warhammer, and know nothing about playing ogrekingdoms.


Contradictory. I think you're over reacting a bit here, someone has trouble with the army and wanted help against it. This isn't everyone getting together to destroy the OK for fun...

You hear that guys, bet you haven't even touched a model, gawd


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## zabo

Concrete Hero said:


> Contradictory. I think you're over reacting a bit here, someone has trouble with the army and wanted help against it. This isn't everyone getting together to destroy the OK for fun...
> 
> You hear that guys, bet you haven't even touched a model, gawd


It just annoyed me when everyone said how easy they are to beat. I assumed that the OK players that they fought against were less than the good general.


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## squeek

This thread is for tactics against Ogre Kingdoms, so please stick to the topic; if anyone wants to make a tactica thread for how to play as Ogre Kingdoms they are more than welcome.

It is possible zabo, that the OK players we have mainly faced are not so good, but it is generally recognised that the OK armylist is the weakest list competitively. That doesn't mean they are incapable of being played well and winning, it just means they are less likely to do well as an army; it is not a comment on the ability of the player.

Since you are an OK player perhaps you could share any thoughts on problem units for you when you play as OK, or tactics that can cause you trouble?


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## neilbatte

A good way to negate gorgers is to have a character near your artillery as this is what the gorger normally tries to kill. When the gorger appears it cannot charge so you just move the character so it is the nearest model to the gorger but out of LOS now by the Gorgers rules it must try to attack the nearest model so just pivots on the spot maybe shuffles a bit. If you use a spellcaster it can still function as normal and every turn just move a bit further round keeping out of its charge arc. This only works for a while though as gorgers normally work in pairs but if only 1 comes out in a turn it gives you the time to get a decent combat unit in place.


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## Ascendant Valor

As a HE player, I first go for the shooting and magic approach. They have a tough time with handling an elven magic phase (I could only imagine against an undead magic phase...), allowing me to put some early hurt on them. Bolt Throwers also can do some considerable hurt as well.

Once within range, I like to negate their Bull Charge where possible. Either by charging them or moving just within half their charge or just beyond their range. ASF can work wonders without the worry of impact hits then. White Lions and Swordmasters excel at this.

Large groups of Gnoblars are of little concern, either. They do manage to hold up my best units, but they are a few extra VPs. A couple of spells or shooting phases will do the trick.

Yetis are not quite so scary, considering the HEs do pack a decent amount of heat. Dragon Breath, Lore of Fire, Caradryn's halberd... they all have flaming attacks. Their reasonable strength is still an issue, as is their ability to move just about anywhere.

I know that this isn't within the subject argument either, but I do fear Leadbelchers and the Scrap Launcher. Against my elves, those things are doom incarnate. Great Eagles can hold them up long enough, I hope.

Rhinox riders are something I have not dealt with yet, and I hope I never have to. If I did, I'd have to trust the heavy hitters: White Lions.


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## Spot The Grot

I would not keep a character at the back to protect the things at the back , killig blow is always a threat.


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## neilbatte

yes killing blow is a threat but the aim of the character in the rear is not to fight the Gorger but to walk around him which with the gorgers daft rules can pin the gorger in place. the best character for this is a mage as the mage can still cast while distracting the gorger.


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## Lord Sven Kittyclaw

i agree with zabo i play ogres regularly and i lose quite often out of those times i think by no means are ogres a weak crappy army


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## Tim/Steve

Just started collecting OK. I know they are weak, but they are funny (my win record at 40k is ridiculous so I'm quite happy to lose some).
Still learning how to use my army but so far I would say:

Don't use- large blocks of undead, low ld troops

Anything with movement 7+ is great vs ogres- they REALLY need the charge and anything faster then them is likely to take it from them. Vargulf is particularly nasty- cheap and small enough to contact who he want in a unit- means he can charge into bulls even if there is an evil bruiser/tyrant about.

Half decent magic is a must- if you let gut magic go by unchecked then you'll be allowing the ogres to get regen/+1S/+1T at will,l several -1LD panic tests as well as endless 2D6 S2 no save magic missiles. While easily stopped with a couple of mages of your own left unchecked this is horendous.
Even if not carrying this weapon you gotta bet that characters will be carrying something nasty- some are quite capable of destroying units all my themselves.

DONT accept challenges vs OK... there's a weapon, its called the Tenderiser... it means a bruiser/tyrant is almost certain to kill ANY character out there on the charge, or to get +6 resolution from a champ.... just deny the challenge if your able, losing a couple of attacks and looking like (and, admittedly, being) a big girls blouse is better then being smooshed.

Throw cheap units (esp undead) towords leadbelchers... then laugh as they blow themselves up. Shooting leadbelchers at 3.2pt T3 models or 4.1pt T4 models is neutral- they'll do as much damage to themselves as to you... not to mention that they'll do it slowly


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## crushinbeats

I'm a skaven player and i have played agenst OK 3 times. Each time I have lost. In our local game groups OK are nearly undefeated. 

Skrag is broken!, lets you bring gorgers as special units. 3 gorgers! in most games For those of you who feel that OK are easy to beat have played some poor players. Some of thier choices are silly, the hunter for example or even maneaters arn't worth the effort. 

To the person who says they can tie up a gorger with a char model, keep in mind they are a single model with 360 degree 12" charge threat. A single model isn't effective in dealing with a gorger. They can pick thier targets also, its not the "nearest model". 

With a unit of thier little fodder mobs in frount of thier real units, shooting threats are minor to them. By the time my guns have caused enuff damage to start hitting thier main Ogre units, they are on top of me. 

I have yet to figure out a effect methoud of dealing with OK. 

Any ideas how a skaven player can deal with ogres without going totaly "SAD" please speak up.


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## Tim/Steve

Dunno.. never played skaven yet (what a noob) but would just like to point out that not only does Skrag make all gorgers special choices he also makes them worth a half choice each... so you can have 8 at 2k pts.
No gun line is gonna survive getting hit in the rear by 8 super-beefy ogres.

Easy tactic vs gorgers... dont play gun lines- get up close to the ogres and kill them in hand-to-hand or at very short ranges. 
If you havent got any units that can move 7"+ then just get within 6" of the ogres so that they dont cause many casualities- even if they kill your front rank static CR should pull you through.. and the turn after you really should be striking first.
... remember to laugh when the gorgers come on only to have nothing to do.


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## MaidenManiac

crushinbeats said:


> ...Any ideas how a skaven player can deal with ogres without going totaly "SAD" please speak up.


I would actually believe that Rat Ogres will do this quite neatly(the gorgers). Also a few ninja-rat-teams(tunneling teams, but without tunnel uppgrade) with poisoned weapons will, if they pass their feartest, kill the Gorgers too:wink:


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## crushinbeats

OOO yea, your right rat ogres. Immune to the fear, can't be Killing blowed. I could bunch up my main force and face my Rat Ogres to the rear, so the second those silly things appear, I could charge them and tie them up just as badly as they tie me up. A rear guard Rat Ogre unit is in my future, I have found that swarms work well agenst them too. 
I'll tellyou if i ever manage to win.


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## Vorag of Strigos

kungfoomasta said:


> as VC i swarm them with skellies and shoot em up with magic if i get the right spells. also Knights of any sort are good for crushing em if you can manage to get the charge.


hmmm slightly similar to my tactic, I swarm them with Zombies to exhaust them, then rend them with a volley of Wight blades, lances, frenzied Gibberish and a nasty black vapour that shrivels you up ^^ In that order


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## retiye2

> Skrag is broken!, lets you bring gorgers as special units. 3 gorgers! in most games For those of you who feel that OK are easy to beat have played some poor players. Some of thier choices are silly, the hunter for example or even maneaters arn't worth the effort.


if he is only taking 3 he is playing it wrong, the skragg gorger combo works with you taking skragg and the 2 for 1 choice gorgers at their max number

thats 1 skragg and 8 gorgers at 2k points, although they take up exactly 1k of it.

it is a gunlines worst nightmare.


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## Tim/Steve

Sounds like my basic tactic that im building towords at 2k- skragg in teh centre with a couple MSU of bulls, ironguts and gnoblars (screening vs shooting isf i need them) with maneaters on my flanks with the special +1ws +1I longsword and 8 gorgers comming from behind the enemy- centre is scary on the charge, flanks are stubborn and strike at I4 so should be hard to kill/ get rid of and if you dont advance into me 8 gorgers will shread most armies...
sounds good, but with some serious disadvantages:

OK, if your playing a gunline your basically toast... you have the chance to put your combat units behind your guns and wait for the gorgers. You'll get the charge on at least a couple (or just wait and block the attack lines to your guns) but if your not greatweapons very little will hurt the gorgers and you cant break them with SCR. Your guns should easily deal with the ogres accross the table- they should be held up by the slower gnoblars (especially if they bicker).
Just dont throw any screening units at the ogres- letting scragg get any kills will heal his own wounds (im assuming he'll be casting trollguts on units around him) but also makes the gorger all the nastier

If your not playing a gunline you should be laughing... advance fast and shread the ogres in front of you. The OK line is short 600pts so you should easily overcome it. Beat the centre then worry about the gorgers comming on from the flanks. Act too slowly and you'll be surrounded by fast moving killing blow units that cause fear and have a 360deg charge arc... not a good plan.


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## neilbatte

the only flaw in that plan is that gorgers don't get 360 degrees LOS, they count as monsters because thet are US 3 so only get front arc LOS.
I got shafted because of this when I first started using ogres and had a high elf mage just move out of line of sight (when combined with their other rule this gets really annoying) as I spent the rest of the game shuffling around on the spot trying to charge the nearest model who just stepped behind me in his turn while casting spells.


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## retiye2

true, but with 8 coming out at staggered intervals you are less likely to only have one that the fairy highelf can dance around.


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