# ADB on Wolves attacking another Legion



## Words_of_Truth

Now if this is true, then it would be absolutely awesome. From ADB himself on Facebook.

"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?"


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## MontytheMighty

Words_of_Truth said:


> Now if this is true, then it would be absolutely awesome. From ADB himself on Facebook.
> 
> "And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?"


To what is that in response?


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## Words_of_Truth

It was a quote from Betrayer I think or something he's writing.


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## Mossy Toes

Don't get your tails into too tight of knots; it could very easily just be some brilliant authorial trolling. And even if it were to make it into Betrayer, pass the editorial cuts and be approved by GW, we'd still have precious little info apart from "the Lost Legions had to be destroyed and the Wolves have been let slip (after crying Havoc! one must assume) in their self-appointed role before.


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## Words_of_Truth

Yeah but it implies they may of failed if it is true.


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## the.alleycat.uk

Awesome quote 

But, the HH guys to seem to have a love of putting in these subtle inferences without expanding on them. A little flavour if you will, simply to enhance the main dish [ah, using food metaphors, i must be hungry.]


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## gothik

if they did then one might still be out there...or not who knows in the wierd and wacky world of GW lol


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## MontytheMighty

Mossy Toes said:


> Don't get your tails into too tight of knots; it could very easily just be some brilliant authorial trolling. And even if it were to make it into Betrayer, pass the editorial cuts and be approved by GW, we'd still have precious little info apart from "the Lost Legions had to be destroyed and the Wolves have been let slip (after crying Havoc! one must assume) in their self-appointed role before.


It means more than that, it means they were soundly beaten and slunk off with their tails between their legs

They probably learned from their defeat. The likely lesson: inter-legionary wars are like coin flips 

Perhaps that is why they were accompanied by custodes and sisters of silence against Magnus. They didn't want a repeat of their earlier failure


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## TheReverend

It just says that they "tried to bring a legion to heel before", that implies they failed and thus this could have absolutely nothing to do with the lost legions...


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## Words_of_Truth

Well, wouldn't people talk about them doing it to existing legions, wouldn't those legions not be part of the Imperium now if the wolves had been set on them?


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## TheReverend

Maybe they just gave them a bit of a telling off and made them sit on the naughty throne for 5 minutes until they said sorry?


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Warning, this is conjecture:

To me, that quote sounds like it may have been spoken by Khârn. Based on his previous claim -


> "Because we couldn't be trusted. The Emperor needed a weapon that would never obey its own desires before those of the Imperium. He needed a weapon that would never bite the hand that feeds. The World Eaters were not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor needed. The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.
> 
> The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does.
> 
> The moment we realised that truth, we changed our Legion's name. That is why we are the Eaters of Worlds, and the War Hounds no longer."
> 
> – Eighth Captain Kharn, when asked why the Space Wolves consider themselves the Emperor's "Executioners"


- It sounds like something he would say. Of course I could be completely wrong.

It is also not clear if it is in reference to one (or both) of the Lost Legions, or another. The World Eaters themselves perhaps?



Mossy Toes said:


> Don't get your tails into too tight of knots; it could very easily just be some brilliant authorial trolling. And even if it were to make it into Betrayer, pass the editorial cuts and be approved by GW, we'd still have precious little info apart from "the Lost Legions had to be destroyed and the Wolves have been let slip (after crying Havoc! one must assume) in their self-appointed role before.


I think it's safe to assume that this will feature in _Betrayer_. All of Aaron's previous hints/teasers/revelations have done so in his other works.


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## Words_of_Truth

Well the quote states the wolves got beat, if it was simply a telling off, I don't think it would be put that way. Depending on your interpretation I can see this quote meaning two things.

1) The wolves where set upon one of the lost legions, but the wolves got the hell kicked out of them.

2) The wolves where sent to shake up a legion, similiar to the way the Emperor and the Ultramarines put the Word Bearers in their place, but instead the targeted legion kick the wolves in the balls and sent them away.

I think it would be more interesting for it to be the first as well as a lot more plausible seeing as either way the Space Wolves did get beat and if it was a known legion who did it, they wouldn't of been seen the way they are by the other legions.

I seem to remember that a legion had more than just the space wolves to contend with, wasn't it in first heretic where the word bearers where also involved in it?


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## Omnipotent

ADB, in other posts on other forums has had an issue with how SW's were depicted or interpreted in Prospero Burns. I think this is his way of bringing the "Emperor's Executioner's" motif to heel. 

That said, just like in "Prospero Burns" the "Emperor's Executioners" comment is from the viewpoint from the Wolves or from someone else studying the wolves, a lot of the statement could be wrapped in opinion from the person providing their opinion. ( I assume it's Kharn)


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

It's not about a Lost Legion.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> It's not about a Lost Legion.


The plot thickens...

Personally I think it sounds like it may be the World Eaters, but I guess we'll have to wait to find out, assuming we will find out at all.


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## Lord of the Night

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The plot thickens...
> 
> Personally I think it sounds like it may be the World Eaters, but I guess we'll have to wait to find out, assuming we will find out at all.


That is what I thought when I first read it this morning. The way Kharn says it, I assume that it is him saying it, sounds like its personal. Like its not just something he heard about second-hand, that quote has a fire to it that makes me think whomever spoke it was a part of the event and he speaks of it with pride and contempt. I do think that it means the Space Wolves tried to execute the World Eaters and failed.

Anybody else get that feeling?


LotN


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## Mossy Toes

Oh, that DOES interest me! I happily renounce all claims of authorial trolling going on! Now this, this could have some depth...


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## March of Time

I think it must be the Night Lords that kicked the Wolves ass :so_happy:


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## VixusKragov

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> It's not about a Lost Legion.


Always nice to have the author themselves on the forum to clear things up :wink:


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Assuming it is the World Eaters, and assuming an actual battle was fought between them and the Wolves, it does seem to pose an issue with the seemingly unshakable belief (pre-Heresy) that Astartes Vs Astartes combat was a near-impossibility. Of course we know that was an incredibly naive view anyway, but it was one that was widespread regardless. Even in spite of events such as the VIII Legion's pre-Heresy exile which involved the killing of at least a handful of III and VII Legion Astartes, assassins being employed against Astartes pre-Heresy, etc.

Though having said that, I have complete faith that AD-B will be able to reconcile that. After all, we don't have enough information to make judgements as of yet. The fact that the quote implies the Wolves didn't enter the information into Imperial records may go a way to solve this issue anyway.

Again, assuming this is about the World Eaters, it really shows how Aaron fleshes out the Legions he deals with. He has already revolutionised the Word Bearers and Night Lords via his seperate portrayals of them, and via the remarkable events he has the Legions involved in. I am really looking forward to _Betrayer_.


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## Freakytah

VixusKragov said:


> Always nice to have the author themselves on the forum to clear things up :wink:


When I first read ADB's post I was like "how the f do you know?!" Then I saw who said it and told myself to shutup.


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## Words_of_Truth

I altered the title since it turns out to be misleading.

It's a shame it's not on about a lost legion but still interesting.


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## gen.ahab

Does this mean the Wolves just took it on themselves to put another legion in their place? Surely if the sanction were ordered by the Emperor whoever was being cleansed or being eaten with the naughty stick would have been kicked from the club, right? If they had gone so far as to move aggressively against the Emperor's forces, assuming the Wolves were sent by the Emperor, than it seems to be that there would be no way for whoever was being sanctioned to reconcile with the Imperium. This just seems wonky to me. 

Maybe this is just a case of the World Eaters going ape shit and the Wolves trying to hold them back? Maybe they simply didn't want to commit the forces it would have taken to bring the World Eaters into line, if they were even capable of it.


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## Tawa

Freakytah said:


> When I first read ADB's post I was like "how the f do you know?!" Then I saw who said it and told myself to shutup.


I only just twigged on myself...... :blush:


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

gen.ahab said:


> Does this mean the Wolves just took it on themselves to put another legion in their place?


They already have once.

EMPEROR: Arrest Magnus. Just bring your brother to me.

RUSS: Okay.

HORUS: Actually, kill Magnus and his Legion.

RUSS: Oh, okay.


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## gen.ahab

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> They already have once.
> 
> EMPEROR: Arrest Magnus. Just bring your brother to me.
> 
> RUSS: Okay.
> 
> HORUS: Actually, kill Magnus and his Legion.
> 
> RUSS: Oh, okay.


True enough, but they didn't just go at it without a superior ordering it. Horus was the warmaster, so following it wouldn't be the same as Russ simply saying "fuck it, the red smurfclops dies." If they did that it would just strike me as odd. Not entirely out of the question, they're still the Wolves after all, but odd none the less. 

That being said, I have no idea what you are doing with your book, so I'm not going to take a dump on it. I'm just saying that if that were the case it would seem weird to me. Just my opinion, however little it is worth.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

gen.ahab said:


> True enough, but they didn't just go at it without a superior ordering it. Horus was the warmaster, so following it wouldn't be the same as Russ simply saying "fuck it, the red smurfclops dies." If they did that it would just strike me as odd. Not entirely out of the question, they're still the Wolves after all, but odd none the less.
> 
> That being said, I have no idea what you are doing with your book, so I'm not going to take a dump on it. I'm just saying that if that were the case it would seem weird to me. Just my opinion, however little it is worth.


In fairness, it seems much weirder to wide swathes of the fanbase that one Legion could ever genuinely consider itself the "executioner" Legion.

A lot of the evidence points to that claim being self-appointed, rather than mandated by the Emperor.


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## gen.ahab

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> In fairness, it seems much weirder to wide swathes of the fanbase that one Legion could ever genuinely consider itself the "executioner" Legion.
> 
> A lot of the evidence points to that claim being self-appointed, rather than mandated by the Emperor.


That may very well be true, and it probably is, but I'm not not arguing the validity of the claim or how deserving they are of the title. I'm simply stating that I would find it odd if it turned out that a legion took it upon themselves, without any input from the Emperor, to sanction another legion.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

gen.ahab said:


> That may very well be true, and it probably is, but I'm not not arguing the validity of the claim or how deserving they are of the title. I'm simply stating that I would find it odd if it turned out that a legion took it upon themselves, without any input from the Emperor, to sanction another legion.


Oh! Yeah, for really reals. I concur.


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## Lord of Ruin

Maybe they witnessed something that was so out of bounds in terms of following Imperial law they felt that they had to do something, however, maybe communication was not possible to terra and hence the wolves reacted on the principle (they believe they are the Emperors executioners) that they had no choice but to act (I think that makes sense).


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Words_of_Truth said:


> It's a shame it's not on about a lost legion but still interesting.


If anything I'm glad it's not about a Lost Legion. If it was we would have only got subtle hints concerning the event in question and nothing more. This way we will hopefully get some juicy details about a near-unprecedented event, that being Astartes on Astartes conflict pre-Heresy.


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## MontytheMighty

TheReverend said:


> It just says that they "tried to bring a legion to heel before", that implies they failed and thus this could have absolutely nothing to do with the lost legions...


Why are you ignoring the latter portion of the quote?

"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if *that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives*?"

There's no wiggle room if it's taken at face value. They lost...


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## demonictalkin56

I'd love it to be when the Wolves found out that Angron was still happily popping Butchers nails in his marines heads and they try and stop him.

Alternatively I like the idea that the wolves were pitted against the Eaters in a war game designed to show the Butcher's Nails usefulness....and then the World Eaters go too far?!


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## MontytheMighty

Guys, perhaps the Wolves' failed (and thus unrecorded) "execution" attempt against the WE was what pushed the WE to side with Horus?


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## Diatribe1974

MontytheMighty said:


> Guys, perhaps the Wolves' failed (and thus unrecorded) "execution" attempt against the WE was what pushed the WE to side with Horus?


Nah. Much like Curze, the ability to take off the shackles (aka restraint) placed upon them by their father (re: The Big E) was enough to make them jump, skip, & hop on over to Horus & his way of things.


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## cheeto

I'm gonna whip out the family motto on this one...
"I know nothing and I proclaim to proclaim even less..." except that the authors know how to tease.


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## ckcrawford

gen.ahab said:


> Does this mean the Wolves just took it on themselves to put another legion in their place? Surely if the sanction were ordered by the Emperor whoever was being cleansed or being eaten with the naughty stick would have been kicked from the club, right? If they had gone so far as to move aggressively against the Emperor's forces, assuming the Wolves were sent by the Emperor, than it seems to be that there would be no way for whoever was being sanctioned to reconcile with the Imperium. This just seems wonky to me.
> 
> Maybe this is just a case of the World Eaters going ape shit and the Wolves trying to hold them back? Maybe they simply didn't want to commit the forces it would have taken to bring the World Eaters into line, if they were even capable of it.


I concur. I think thats a little weird. 

My stance with the wolves, and I want to make it clear. Because everytime I feel like I'm actually a Space Wolf fan when I argue their "executioner status". I am a Chaos fan, and pretty much any old fart in this forum will know how big an Iron Warrior's fan I am.

However, the Space Wolves are (I will go as far as saying) *extremely* different from any other legion. They look nothing alike and even in the 40K realm they're geneseed is so unstable that as far as we know they have had no successful successor chapters. 

We don't know if it's because of the Planet itself or what it is. 

Let's look at this instance. If we look at a *normalitly* of the Thousand Sons. Which would be sorcery and warp gifts from great sorcerers to astartes with very minor sorcery gifts. Could you not argue that these astartes are better (one on one) against other legion astartes? We saw even the minor astartes leveled Thousand Sons predicting when the wolfs were popping their heads up during Prospero.

We see superiority in geneseed that makes pyschic and sorcery abilities great for an entire legion. Is it impossible to think that geneseed could be so mutated that strength and speed in close combat would be superior as well?


And seriously, even though they could be superior, does that mean they are a bunch of "sword dancers?" Do they just go through other astartes like a machine gun would go through paper? Obviously not. But I think this is what people automatically assume. 

It amazes me that people get freaked out when an astartes defeats a Custodial Guard but they whine when Genetic Crazies like the Wolves of Fenris are being called the "executioners." Anything can happen when an Astartes fights a Custodian. There is only so much skill and training can do to make him better. But it isn't crazy to think a Custodian will probably win that fight. The same I believe goes when you talk about the Wolves of Fenris.




Edit:

Also as a side note. This doesn't mean they are "better." They maybe superior in hacking astartes, but Leman Russ probably doesn't have the same tactical genius as Guilliman for example. 

You can even make the argument that in the 40k realm, they are the *worst off*, of any of the Original Legions. They are constrained to one chapter and have no legacy throughout the galaxy like the other legions. Even the Salamanders have a couple chapters for crying out loud. Where they may have been the "anit-astartes" in the end it was that strength within the geneseed that became their downfall.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

ckcrawford said:


> And seriously, even though they could be superior...





ckcrawford said:


> Also as a side note. This doesn't mean they are "better." They maybe superior in hacking astartes,


I think here's the problem with your standpoint. You're starting from incorrect foundations. They're not better. They're the same as other Space Marines.

So go with that as a basis for speculation (as we know it's true) rather than trying to find ways they really are better.


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## MontytheMighty

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I think here's the problem with your standpoint. You're starting from incorrect foundations. They're not better. They're the same as other Space Marines.
> 
> So go with that as a basis for speculation (as we know it's true) rather than trying to find ways they really are better.


Yes, there's no evidence that SW are "better at hacking Astartes"

When WE and BA go berserk, they're great at hacking Astartes too


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## Xisor

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I think here's the problem with your standpoint. You're starting from incorrect foundations. They're not better. They're the same as other Space Marines.
> 
> So go with that as a basis for speculation (as we know it's true) rather than trying to find ways they really are better.


I get this from an authorial stand-point, but in universe it seems a bit dubious: all of the Space Marine legions _can't_ be the same. They've different qualities, different training, different background, different leadership... for all those factors to invariably balance...

Of course, it's not a straight choice between 'one scale to order them all' and 'they're all equal'. That said, from an authorial perspective, an author is free to arrange things such that sides gain the upper hand in the correct manner, without the 'underlying reality' even being acknowledged. (It needn't exist.) In that light, a World Eater Librarian can totally beast a Thousand Son in one story whilst in another story a Thousand Son can totally beast a World Eater in a straight up weaponless brawl. Making each of these situations inherently plausible (and moreover: entertaining) is perhaps the real worry.

All that said, the operational differences can be thoughtfully analysed. Could the World Eaters and a loyal Angron have as stoutly defended the Imperial Palace against a traitor Dorn and heretical Fists? Any of the comparisons realistically relies on a hypothetical comparisons that largely are unknown in Universe.

_However_, that leads to possible inter-legionary combats and trials later on in the literature! What if, in the name of empiricism, Guilliman apprehends several contingents from other legions and puts them through a partially-metaphorical meatgrinder to test and analyse the inherent qualities of the Legions and their disciplines? Gaining a reliable metric and calibrating (and indeed: interpreting the results of) such an experiment would be unwieldy in the extreme but... well, it's not unthinkable. Certainly, in light of _The Crimson Fist_, _Fear to Tread_ and _Rules of Engagement_, it might even be ethically reasonable and practically feasible 'for the greater good'.

I'm sure I had a point. Idle speculation on who's better ain't so handy, but in principle there must be tangible, quantitative performance-based differences in the legions. Otherwise they're even less plausible than they were!


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## ckcrawford

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I think here's the problem with your standpoint. You're starting from incorrect foundations. They're not better. They're the same as other Space Marines.


Its not a question of better? That's very broad. Could they be better at fighting other astartes? Thats not a very impossible idea to fathom.

The notion, that the Wolves are a BETTER legion can easily be denoted. They don't have the best record at fighting the enemies of the Imperium at that time. From time to time, talk of the most tactical and genius primarch has come up. The Wolves or Russ have never been among them.

If you compare what "Legacy" the Wolves left to the Imperium in a good or bad way, they don't leave a lot compared to most legions. As I said before they have left one chapter that we know of. 

The best legion... not at all.




Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> So go with that as a basis for speculation (as we know it's true) rather than trying to find ways they really are better.


I think its harder to speculate the Emperor would send the Wolves purely due to their loyalty. Thats just militarly and statistically very hard to believe. To subdue 3 or maybe even four legions. Whether it was to exterminate them or just bring them to their knees. 

If thats the case the Emperor was potentially sending the Wolves themselves to be exterminated 3/4 times. 

Why would the emperor send the _same_ legion 3-4 times unless he knew there was a reasurring one outcome. 




MontytheMighty said:


> Yes, there's no evidence that SW are "better at hacking Astartes"
> 
> When WE and BA go berserk, they're great at hacking Astartes too


Sure we have evidence. Whether the evidence is sensible and congruent can be debated.

We have the evidence that the Wolves were trusted by the Emperor to _subdue_ 3-4 legions. The fourth being the World Eaters, if that is indeed something about to happen in the series (the facts are not all together though). So that's four.

We have _The Battle of the Fang_ that shows how stubborn and brutal a company of Wolf Nubes could be against a Primarch and his army.

We also the battle of Armaggedon where the Wolfs of Fenris fight Angron's LEGION of 50,000 Bezerkers and countless thousands of daemons and are able to hold them off with the help of Imperial Guard and I think it was 109 Grey Knights. But that in itself is extraordinary. They were the only Chapter known to be have been in this war. I've been critized for even trying to make up a fluffy chapter part of this war.

If you can find a legion except for the Smurfs that have faced impossible odds of that magnitude against astartes show me them.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

ckcrawford said:


> Its not a question of better? That's very broad. Could they be better at fighting other astartes? Thats not a very impossible idea to fathom.


No, but we - as fans and readers - know it's not true. So there's no need for the debate. Space Wolves literally - _literally _- are _not_ better at fighting other Space Marines than other Space Marines are. 

They claim to be, yes.




ckcrawford said:


> I think its harder to speculate the Emperor would send the Wolves purely due to their loyalty. Thats just militarly and statistically very hard to believe. To subdue 3 or maybe even four legions. Whether it was to exterminate them or just bring them to their knees.


Again, that's reaching. That relies on a few off-hand references where a Wolf says there's been Marine-on-Marine violence before, and the Wolves getting unleashed. It says nothing of scale or context. It could be a single squad, for all we know - especially as we (as readers and fans) know the Lost Legions have no real fate, will never be revealed, and the Wolves _didn't_ kill them. 




ckcrawford said:


> Why would the emperor send the _same_ legion 3-4 times unless he knew there was a reasurring one outcome.


He didn't. All we know is that he asked Russ to arrest Magnus, or simply bring him back to Terra. That's it. Everything else is assumption and guesswork. The Emperor didn't even ask Russ to bring the Thousand Sons to heel. He asked Russ to bring Magnus - who, remember, was perfectly peaceful and wallowing in silent regret - back to Terra. In that light, it's unlikely there'd even have been a fight.

Horus convinced Russ to raze Prospero, by deceiving him. Apparently very easily.

Why is it you choose to believe the Wolves' propaganda about them destroying the Lost Legions, rather than any of the other stuff about them? Or about the fact it'll never really be mentioned, and there's no real story? Why is that the one story you choose, when it seems the least likely?

That's why this debate is circular. You're taking the Wolves propaganda and running with it as fact, ignoring all other aspects.


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## Designation P-90

Maybe Im in over my head but I never thought that the SW's were "better" than any other Legion/Chapter. I do however think that they would warmly embrace that thought.


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## Khorne's Fist

Mossy Toes said:


> ..."the Lost Legions had to be destroyed and the Wolves have been let slip (after crying Havoc! one must assume) in their self-appointed role before.


Not quite self appointed. The Wolves in _Fear to Thread_ were sent to watch Sang and his boys by the Sigillite, and it would appear they also had orders to execute him if he showed any sign of swaying to the other side. It is also mentioned that Wolves had been sent to other Legions with apparently the same purpose. 

Whilst I think Swallow made a mess of his brief portrayal of the Wolves, he did convey the impression that they were acting as a sort of field police or commissariat for the Legions. This, on top of all the hints we have received throughout the series, indicates to me that they were certainly the most trusted Legion if another needed to be sanctioned, if not necesarily the best at it. As has been said in this thread, and in the novels, they will do everything and anything to achieve their mission. 





Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Why is it you choose to believe the Wolves' propaganda about them destroying the Lost Legions, rather than any of the other stuff about them? Or about the fact it'll never really be mentioned, and there's no real story? Why is that the one story you choose, when it seems the least likely?


This isn't just the Wolves' own propaganda. IIRC it is mentioned in a few of the books about by various characters about the Wolves being unleashed _again_ when Prospero is mentioned. That said, there is even a very small hint that the BA might have been involved as well. In _Deliverance Lost_ the Raven Guard and IF start betting amongst themselves if it will be Sang or Russ that kills Horus when they hear of his betrayal. To me these two names wouldn't have been picked at random, these Astartes must have had some sort of background knowledge to base their choices on.


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## gothik

Diatribe1974 said:


> Nah. Much like Curze, the ability to take off the shackles (aka restraint) placed upon them by their father (re: The Big E) was enough to make them jump, skip, & hop on over to Horus & his way of things.


Angron always harboured a dislike for his father since he took him from Deshara and left his brothers and sisters to die at the hands of thier overlords, so when the emp said stop putting that crap into your warriors heads Angron said sure but still did it anyway. 
Angron and Russ are both violent, both like to do things their way even if one follows thier father without question and one flips him the bird


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## ckcrawford

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Again, that's reaching. That relies on a few off-hand references where a Wolf says there's been Marine-on-Marine violence before, and the Wolves getting unleashed. It says nothing of scale or context. It could be a single squad, for all we know - especially as we (as readers and fans) know the Lost Legions have no real fate, will never be revealed, and the Wolves _didn't_ kill them.
> 
> I do appreciate you replying back. I was worried that I was running into a pointless debate. It isn't just the Wolves though saying this. Its that little hint here and there were another legion through out the series says this. It's evidence isn't it? And granted you can say Dan Abnett just said it for propaganda, but I believe they reason why he chose this legion and the way he says it shows he truly believes this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dead.Blue.Clown said:
> 
> 
> 
> He didn't. All we know is that he asked Russ to arrest Magnus, or simply bring him back to Terra. That's it. Everything else is assumption and guesswork. The Emperor didn't even ask Russ to bring the Thousand Sons to heel. He asked Russ to bring Magnus - who, remember, was perfectly peaceful and wallowing in silent regret - back to Terra. In that light, it's unlikely there'd even have been a fight.
> 
> Horus convinced Russ to raze Prospero, by deceiving him. Apparently very easily.
> 
> 
> 
> Hence, subdue. The Emperor sent a legion, it would have been easier to send the closest Imperial Guards Regiment or a legion with a Primarch that Magnus had better relations with.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dead.Blue.Clown said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why is it you choose to believe the Wolves' propaganda about them destroying the Lost Legions, rather than any of the other stuff about them? Or about the fact it'll never really be mentioned, and there's no real story? Why is that the one story you choose, when it seems the least likely?
> 
> That's why this debate is circular. You're taking the Wolves propaganda and running with it as fact, ignoring all other aspects.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But its not just one story. The Wolves thing has been brought up several times. Its the only aspect we have of them throughout the Heresy. That and the most common perspective about them, which is they were just a bunch of grumpy savages.
> 
> If it turns out just to be another "rumor" than so be it. But that would mean the Heresy Team would have to agree that the Wolves really aren't that "anti-astartes" legion.
> 
> That also creates a problem. Somehow with the lost legions, that would have to be a dirty lie. The Wolves hence a dirty legion. But the Wolves never appear to be like that. They may seem like brutes but that would definitely change how they appear to Space Wolf fans and players.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for the reply back.:so_happy:
Click to expand...


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

ckcrawford said:


> If it turns out just to be another "rumor" than so be it. But that would mean the Heresy Team would have to agree that the Wolves really aren't that "anti-astartes" legion.


I'm on that team, though. I don't recall agreeing the Wolves _were_ that Legion. I do recall agreeing - as with the lore - that the Wolves really aren't better at fighting Marines than any other Legion. But the team didn't even need to agree it, because it's always been true, anyway.

You say this:



ckcrawford said:


> And granted you can say Dan Abnett just said it for propaganda, but I believe they reason why he chose this legion and the way he says it shows he truly believes this.


...but it's the exact crux of the problem. We, as readers and fans, know it's not true. We have 25 years of lore backing us up, and the truth that no Marine is better at fighting other Marines in the Heresy than any other. Yes, there are teasing references to the Lost Legions, which are - to you - jokes when other authors say them, but dead serious when they're about the Wolves. Why? They're teasing references, like all the others. What if the Ultramarines really are larger because they were formed from the Lost Legions? Where does that leave the Wolves?

You're taking tiny, tiny references and expanding them as massive, galaxy-changing facts.



ckcrawford said:


> Hence, subdue. The Emperor sent a legion, it would have been easier to send the closest Imperial Guards Regiment or a legion with a Primarch that Magnus had better relations with.


This is one of those moments where you're applying real logic to a lore decision made 20 years ago, that was never meant to be analysed. Additionally, it still doesn't say subdue. _Russ was asked to bring a peaceful Magnus back. _That's it. That. Is. All. Everything else is conjecture, or went wrong and turned to violence because of Horus. 

You can add guesswork and assumptions to it, but that's retroactively trying to make the Wolves out to fit the role you want them to have.

This is the last I'll say on it, because it's taking too long and going nowhere. You can't choose the Wolves' propaganda and a tiny handful of references as The Truth when the point is that they're tantalising, tiny references to tease and hint, not reshape everything. No one has the authority to say what happened to the Lost Legions, because nothing happened to them. There's no lore there. Nothing to hint to. Little half-references are all there is.

We, as fans, know the Wolves _didn't_ kill the Lost Legions. No one did, because there's no story there. There are teasing hints at possibilities in the series, and that's all there's ever been. So why choose the Wolves killing them (unlikely, as well as unrealistic) rather than any of the other stories? That's what your entire argument comes down to, and why it's wrong. Your answer to that is repeatedly "But they did." 

But they didn't. What else is there to say?

The Wolves' book also says they're the most savage Legion. But they're not. That's always been the World Eaters. But why don't you argue that it's really the Wolves now? It also says they're the Imperium's most feared Legion. But they're not. That's always been the Night Lords. Yet, still, you're not arguing that the Wolves are that. Why choose to believe one story, yet none of the others?

That's what this comes down to.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

I re-read that reply I just posted. How annoyed do I sound?

Jeez.

tl;dr - It could be true, CK. Just remember, it's unlikely, and there are plenty of other stories that could also be true.

There. Way fewer words. Saved us all some time, like a boss.


----------



## Cowlicker16

Wow, I have to follow all that! Back towards the pattern of the first few posts, the second I read that I instantly went to World Eaters vs Space Wolves. For years now (at least for me) you read the background and it continually puts the WE as way too savage and that no one liked it but nothing was ever done about it. This teaser tells us that maybe they were being too savage because nobody COULD do anything about it. It's a fun idea and i like it, but that's my 2 cents.


----------



## increaso

I wonder if the Wolves/Russ could have had any dealings with tackling mutating Thousand Sons pre-Magnus.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

increaso said:


> I wonder if the Wolves/Russ could have had any dealings with tackling mutating Thousand Sons pre-Magnus.


I don't think so. The TS were confined to Terra until Magnus found his _cure_ for them, so there would have been no need. That's why they were running way behind in the Crusade compared to the other Legions.


----------



## increaso

Is that correct?

I've not heard that interpretation before (or don't remember it).

As I understood it, they joined the Great Crusade like all other legions and were whittled down to 1000 marines due to the mutations and Magnus swopped in and saved them.


----------



## Khorne's Fist

I just reread ATS, and Ahriman and co. are seriously pissed off because they are stuck watching Magnus examine the huge man made mountain. They are railing at the fact that they aren't making up ground on the rest of the Crusade because they didn't start for decades after the rest.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Khorne's Fist said:


> I just reread ATS, and Ahriman and co. are seriously pissed off because they are stuck watching Magnus examine the huge man made mountain. They are railing at the fact that they aren't making up ground on the rest of the Crusade because they didn't start for decades after the rest.


But it doesn't say they were stuck on Terra. I imagine they began the Crusade like every other Primarch-less Legion, but as the "flesh change" began to take its toll they were slowly taken from the front lines as the other Legions pushed on. 

EDIT: In fact _A Thousand Sons_ tells us that the XV Legion began the Crusade like every other Legion, and that it was five years before their psychic potential began to truly manifest. Which of course then slowly developed into the "flesh change". Ahriman informs us that the first warrior to fall to the "flesh change" did so on a world called Bezant, not Terra. And that by the time the "flesh change" had become an epidemic "many of the Legions had been reunited with their sires", so at least thirty or forty years into the Crusade. He also informs us that many of the Legion went into stasis to avoid the "flesh change" until a cure could be found. So whilst they had a lot of catching up to do because the "flesh change" had begun to render them obsolete as a coherent fighting force, there is no mention of them being confined to Terra.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> But it doesn't say they were stuck on Terra. I imagine they began the Crusade like every other Primarch-less Legion, but as the "flesh change" began to take its toll they were slowly taken from the front lines as the other Legions pushed on.
> 
> EDIT: In fact _A Thousand Sons_ tells us that the XV Legion began the Crusade like every other Legion, and that it was five years before their psychic potential began to truly manifest. Which of course then slowly developed into the "flesh change". Ahriman informs us that the first warrior to fall to the "flesh change" did so on a world called Bezant, not Terra. And that by the time the "flesh change" had become an epidemic "many of the Legions had been reunited with their sires", so at least thirty or forty years into the Crusade. He also informs us that many of the Legion went into stasis to avoid the "flesh change" until a cure could be found. So whilst they had a lot of catching up to do because the "flesh change" had begun to render them obsolete as a coherent fighting force, there is no mention of them being confined to Terra.


Damn you CotE, just spent ages trying to find the part of the book where it mentions Bezant!


----------



## Khorne's Fist

That may be the case, but I'm fairly sure there is mention early in the book about them being on Terra for decades while Magnus looked for a cure.


----------



## Unknown Primarch

Words_of_Truth said:


> Now if this is true, then it would be absolutely awesome. From ADB himself on Facebook.
> 
> "And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?"


then id say that legion is lying because quite simply if the wolves werent the legion who was capable of destroying any legion then they wouldnt be the legion that was used to destroy any legion.

and to be honest after reading some comments from DBC id be really disappointed if the angle of SW not being the legion killer was not the truth. its not that i believe they are superior physically so they are better but its that controlled animal aggression that they can switch on and off yet still be superhumanly focused at the task at hand that give them that edge in combat thats makes them, for me, thats something special and to be honest it adds something special to the lore if they have that extra something.

now numbers play a big factor in it but there has to be a reason for horus to be crapping his pants that the wolves are heading to terra considering they have faught both the thousands sons AND alpha legion before even getting there. their numbers should be depleted sufficiently for the traitors to be able to deal with them unless they are a exceptional treat for some reason. 

on another note i didnt immediatly think of wolves vs world eaters on this thread, i thought maybe it could be a reference to wolves vs dark angels but if DBC has already written something to beef up peoples opinion of the world eaters then i cant argue with that.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Unknown Primarch said:


> then id say that legion is lying because quite simply if the wolves werent the legion who was capable of destroying any legion then they wouldnt be the legion that was used to destroy any legion.


Well, there's your answer. They weren't used to destroy any Legion. How is that even a debate? We _know_ that's true.

*Option A*
The smallest Legion, whose Marines are actually no better at battle than any other Marines, believes itself to be the Emperor's "executioners". We, as readers and fans, know that Space Wolves are not better at killing other Marines than any other Marines, just as we know the Lost Legions have no official lore, and them being killed by another Legion is no more likely than any of the other urban legends about them in the series - especially seeing as there is no official story, and never will be. We also know that Russ has never, ever been given orders by the Emperor to kill another Legion - Horus deceived him into attacking Prospero, when his orders were to show an Imperial presence and arrest Magnus - who was, at the time, still known to the Emperor as being peaceful and full of regret. We also know the Wolves are not capable of killing another Legion outright, as they had Custodians, Sisters of Silence, and the Thousand Sons own fleet didn't oppose the Wolves. Indeed, neither did the whole city, until the very end.


*Option B*
The Wolves are better at fighting other Marines than any other Legion because... they just are. They're the most savage, and suddenly the World Eaters aren't, despite 25 years of lore. They're the most fearsome, and suddenly the Night Lords aren't, despite 25 years of lore. All of the opinions of a couple of in-universe characters in _Prospero Burns_ aren't clever, in-universe perspectives - they're Dan Abnett directly telling people that the Wolves now replace two other Legions' main themes, and are literally the best at killing other Marines. The Wolves killed two Legions in the past, easily enough (and losing so few men) to still be a Legion about the same size as the other smaller Legions, despite the fact no one at GW is allowed to say what happened to the Lost Legions, and any references are nothing more than possibilities and cheeky in-jokes.

So.

It's sort of breathtaking people think Option B is more likely than Option A. It's also breathtaking anyone could see Option A as some kind of insult against the Wolves. It's been an acknowledged truth since... forever. How is sticking to it some grievous insult that makes the Wolves look bad? 

That's the last I'll say on this matter, I think. If the actual truth is so unpalatable to a few folks, and the nature of ambiguity and doubt is never allowed with any Legion, you may be loving the wrong license.



Unknown Primarch said:


> but its that controlled animal aggression that they can switch on and off yet still be superhumanly focused at the task at hand that give them that edge in combat thats makes them, for me, thats something special and to be honest it adds something special to the lore if they have that extra something.


Controlled aggression makes them better at killing other Marines? 

So... why not use the Thousand Sons? Their sorcery could tear any Legion to pieces. Or the Ultramarines? Their numbers would easily overwhelm anyone. Or the World Eaters? How are their implants (which make them supreme hand to hand fighters) not good enough? Why not the Alpha Legion, who can annihilate a Legion without even coming to battle? Why not any other Legion, with all their tricks, many of which make more sense?

See what I mean? Any Legion can say "Oh, but we have this special thing here" and make a case for being better at killing other Marines. That's why your answer makes no sense. It's a fascinating and cool in-universe belief. That's what's awesome about it.

Ironically, I'm the one who's gone on record saying reasons why other Legions aren't suitable for it, and I've similarly reinforced the possibility that the Wolves are the executioners, whether it's self-appointed or not. But, seriously, it's not a sin to dwell in some doubt, especially when the evidence is wildly against the Wolves.


----------



## SonofMalice

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> *Option A*
> The smallest Legion, whose Marines are actually no better at battle than any other Marines, believes itself to be the Emperor's "executioners". We, as readers and fans, know that Space Wolves are not better at killing other Marines than any other Marines, just as we know the Lost Legions have no official lore, and them being killed by another Legion is no more likely than any of the other urban legends about them in the series - especially seeing as there is no official story, and never will be. We also know that Russ has never, ever been given orders by the Emperor to kill another Legion - Horus deceived him into attacking Prospero, when his orders were to show an Imperial presence and arrest Magnus - who was, at the time, still known to the Emperor as being peaceful and full of regret. We also know the Wolves are not capable of killing another Legion outright, as they had Custodians, Sisters of Silence, and the Thousand Sons own fleet didn't oppose the Wolves. Indeed, neither did the whole city, until the very end.


Well this has been most instructive to me. Looking forward to seeing what turns out. Random questions that shows my ignorance but are the Space Wolves really the smallest legion? I would have though that would be the Thousand Sons (flesh change and attrition). Just wondering.

Also, I keep getting ping-ponged back and forth between "The Emperor ordered Russ to bring Magnus and his legion to Terra peacefully and horus changed the order to murder them all" and "The Emperor ordered them destroyed". I personally like the first option, the one you say is accurate the best but it makes me a little curious too. Why do you need an entire legion to escort the Sons? Why the Wolves? Glancing at a rather hastily recovered map it seems Terra is closer and the Fists were there. Why send sisters of silence if you expected contrition and peace? Most of those questions have common sense answers I can see but the one that got me was Valdor. 

If anyone, other than russ, was given an exact briefing of what the Emperor wanted with regards to the sons would it not be Valdor? He and his ilk, while all about the ban on librarians, seem to be even more enthused about following the letter of the Emperor's word. I can see Russ getting tricked, I can understand the sisters but I just don't get Valdor not enforcing the original order of the Emperor. I am sure I missed something but for the life of me I don't know what it is. 

It just seems like if they expect peaceful repentance they sure brought a lot of fire power and if they didn't then why send only one legion? Why not call in help from others? Admittedly these are probably just gaps in my knowledge or understanding so I would be grateful if anyone could fill my brain back to capacity.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Well, there's your answer. They weren't used to destroy any Legion. How is that even a debate? We _know_ that's true.
> 
> *Option A*
> The smallest Legion, whose Marines are actually no better at battle than any other Marines, believes itself to be the Emperor's "executioners". We, as readers and fans, know that Space Wolves are not better at killing other Marines than any other Marines, just as we know the Lost Legions have no official lore, and them being killed by another Legion is no more likely than any of the other urban legends about them in the series - especially seeing as there is no official story, and never will be. We also know that Russ has never, ever been given orders by the Emperor to kill another Legion - Horus deceived him into attacking Prospero, when his orders were to show an Imperial presence and arrest Magnus - who was, at the time, still known to the Emperor as being peaceful and full of regret. We also know the Wolves are not capable of killing another Legion outright, as they had Custodians, Sisters of Silence, and the Thousand Sons own fleet didn't oppose the Wolves. Indeed, neither did the whole city, until the very end.



Regardless of whether the Wolves were self appointed or official executioner, are we really so sure they haven't been sent against another Legion before? Currently out in Afghan and therefore away from all but a few of my heresy novels, but there has been a steadily increasing amount of references from multiple authors indicating the Wolves were used at least once before. One of the more distinct ones I can recall without the books being the pysker in the Outcast Dead who after Magnus sends his psychic message, says that the Wolves will be unleashed again. Again would dearly like all my novels here so I could come them all for the references, but I'm of the opinion that it's very, very likely the Wolves were sent against another legion, one of the unknown ones specifically. Granted your of course one of the Heresy authors, so this may be you revealing inside information when you say they haven't. But why are so many hints being thrown in if it wasn't the case.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

SonofMalice said:


> It just seems like if they expect peaceful repentance they sure brought a lot of fire power and if they didn't then why send only one legion? Why not call in help from others? Admittedly these are probably just gaps in my knowledge or understanding so I would be grateful if anyone could fill my brain back to capacity.


No, I agree; it's definitely one of the reasons it's a possibility. But _that's _the story. The fact it's a possibility. Not that it's 100% true. All the references are in-universe, or a three-second moment of grinning, fun marketing. We know - all of us should - that the Wolves are not better at fighting Marines than any other Legion. That's not even a ebate, really. Whether they were still executioners or not is what's interesting, and at no point do I say they're not. Quite the opposite; I like the idea of the Wolves really acting that way, mandated or not. 

People are confusing the fact I'm pointing out a difference between the IP's reality and the in-universe opinion as me somehow disparaging the Wolves. If I was wholly against the idea, the opening quotes to _Betrayer_ - on my blog and this forum - wouldn't be reinforcing the idea the Wolves were the best for the job, and that the World Eaters would be terrible at it. I even hinted in Aurelian, in a vision, that the Wolves almost marched against the Word Bearers when Lorgar was censured. So I'm clearly not against the idea. I've done as much as anyone to reinforce it.

But this is in-universe perspective. It's unreliable narrators. It's not me and Dan saying The Lore. It's not my job to prove the Wolves aren't better at fighting other Marines than any other Marines. The lore already says they're not, despite a few in-character references here and there. You can take any Legion and use their special trick and theme as "the reason they're the best to kill other Marines". The difference is, people are taking by far the most popular Legion's hints as true, and all the others as false.




Angel of Blood said:


> but I'm of the opinion that it's very, very likely the Wolves were sent against another legion, one of the unknown ones specifically.


Um, because:



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> ...despite the fact no one at GW is allowed to say what happened to the Lost Legions, and any references are nothing more than possibilities and cheeky in-jokes.


This has come up a thousand times and more. They're vague references as easter eggs - people are choosing to insist they _must_ mean the Lost Legions. We've all been saying since Day 1 that the Lost Legions and their fates will never, ever be detailed or revealed. Why would Dan then say "Oh, by the way, the Wolves killed them"?

See? Picking and choosing references, ignoring half of them to claim the Wolves' ones are truth. That's why this argument is circular and stupid.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Well fair enough but the possibility is certainly there that the wolves may have had a hand in it, but again just call that a personal idea I quite like the idea of. However unknown legion or not, there's still mounting evidence the wolves have once before been sent against another legion.


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Angel of Blood said:


> However unknown legion or not, there's still mounting evidence the wolves have once before been sent against another legion.


I... I know. This thread is about that being confirmed. By me.

You crazy, AoB. You crazy.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Aye fair one again, just a bit uncertain/unsure of whether the incident that quote is referring to, is the same one other authors have hinted at in their novels. As in, have the Wolves only been sent against one legion(Which we're assuming is the World Eaters) and failed, or have they been sent against another Legion successfully as well to which the other hints are aimed at.


----------



## Corporal Punishment 69

When the _*actual author*_ of HH books tells you something, the wise man listens.......


----------



## Diatribe1974

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> _**Stuff ADB said***_


While I can understand and accept the whole "Emperors Executioners" title being a more self-titled one and can definitely do the math in why the Wolves are honestly no better than the various other Legions (as each had their own strengths & weaknesses), what I do have a problem with, is the removal of the what happened to the missing Legions explanation that had been hinted at being the handiwork of Russ & the Wolves. While we've never officially had a_ "Hey, Leman Russ & his Space Wolves killed a Legion!_ official stance from BL, it was more of an accepted _"Hey, it does appear that he & his troops went in and (spoken in a stereotypical Italian mobster dialect & posture) "took care of some of the Big E's problems, ya know? So, if yoos want to stay breathin, yoos best be lisn'in to what the Big E says, ya understand what I'm sayin?"._ While there wasn't any more than that, it did give a solid "maybe" as to what happened to one of them, but nothing more than that. If anything, it gave more tantalizing questions of _"Well, if he did that.....why?"_ rather than the standard _"Derp Derp, Missing Legions, we'll never know why!"_ that's (I guess by your statements) being re-imposed again. I, for one, preferred the "Just vague enough possibilities of an explanation to sate the average persons question, but more than enough room to play with if you wanted to..." styled stance.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Horus deceived him into attacking Prospero, when his orders were to show an Imperial presence and arrest Magnus - who was, at the time, still known to the Emperor as being peaceful and full of regret.


This is something that continually peaks my interest; whether or not the Wolves were directly ordered by the Emperor to destroy Prospero and the XV or just to aprehend Magnus.

Do we know for a fact that Russ was ordered to simply aprehend Magnus, and that it was Horus and Valdor that convinced him otherwise? The series itself, as well as previous lore on the subject, seems rather contradictory. IIRC even the _Collected Visions_ contradicts itself on this matter. The Emperor's warning at Nikaea from _A Thousand Sons_ - "woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light." - doesn't suggest an Emperor reluctant to destroy oath-breakers.

_Prospero Burns_ only seems to compound confusion. The Wolf King is portrayed as being reluctant as he attempts to converse with Magnus via Hawser, begging him to stand down and surrender himself. Russ knew what Magnus had done; he knew that Magnus had used sorcerous means to warn the Emperor of Horus's treachery, yet even then was still reluctant and attempted to plead with Magnus. What exactly could Horus have told Russ to enrage him to the extent that he was willing to change his tune from pleading with Magnus to stand down and offer submission (which Magnus did do) to instantly bombarding and assaulting Prospero and every XV Legion Astartes in sight? _False Gods_ simply says that Horus contacted Russ "and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus's treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations." Of course Horus probably lied and exaggerated but Russ seems to have been aware of just how deep Magnus had delved anyway. 

Of course, one of the main points of _Prospero Burns_ was to portray just how much Chaos was manipulating both the VI and the XV Legions, so confusion and misunderstanding was obviously rife in the build-up to Prospero. But do we know for a fact that the Emperor only ordered Magnus's arrest rather than his death?



SonofMalice said:


> Why do you need an entire legion to escort the Sons? Why the Wolves? Glancing at a rather hastily recovered map it seems Terra is closer and the Fists were there. Why send sisters of silence if you expected contrition and peace? Most of those questions have common sense answers


I think the most obvious answer is: just in case.



SonofMalice said:


> but the one that got me was Valdor. If anyone, other than russ, was given an exact briefing of what the Emperor wanted with regards to the sons would it not be Valdor? He and his ilk, while all about the ban on librarians, seem to be even more enthused about following the letter of the Emperor's word. I can see Russ getting tricked, I can understand the sisters but I just don't get Valdor not enforcing the original order of the Emperor. I am sure I missed something but for the life of me I don't know what it is.


Valdor's entire purpose was to defend the Emperor. Magnus had directly threatened the Emperor. Thus, Valdor was keen to end the threat once and for all.


----------



## Angel of Blood

Corporal Punishment 69 said:


> When the _*actual author*_ of HH books tells you something, the wise man listens.......


Except my point is still valid, you don't appear to have grasped what I'm getting at.


----------



## Corporal Punishment 69

I have grasped what you're getting at, I just happen to not agree with your line of reasoning, which is reinforced by what was posted by mr blue clown. I rather feel you have become too atatched(sp?) to your pet theory to see any other alternative, which to be fair is common enough when talking about 40K fluff. I have been into this hobby since RT was released, it's why I learned english, why I moved to the UK for a couple of years after uni, I've heard endless arguments about the hints dropped at various times and what they may mean, really, try not to take it so seriously, just accept that your hypothesis is just that, a hypothesis, not fact, not accurate deduction, and it's about an imaginary universe which only the people working for GW creative dept. actually have any say over.....


----------



## Angel of Blood

I've never stated my 'hypothesis' as fact, I'm all too aware of the nature of 40k fluff. The fact of the matter is however, numerous authors have dropped hints that the wolves have been sent against another legion, I'm not saying that is a fact at all, I'm not disregarding any other alternatives, I'm merely going, as I always have striven to achieve, going off the sources and quotes of the official canon. 

Again this would be so much easier if i had my books to find the direct quotes. We know pre-Prospero, that Astartes have been used to sanction another group of Astartes, Russ states as much, why would he lie to Hawser, or even bring it up in the first place. Evander(least I think it was Evander) upon noting that Magnus has broken the Emperors decree, states that the Wolves will be unleashed once again. Being someone in a position to know all astropathic messages past and present, it's doubtful he was speculating, but even if he was, still a huge nod to the current theory.The very nature of the Wolves referring to themselves as Executioners, self-titles or not, why would they and Russ so fervently believe themselves to fulfil that role if they haven't been used in that role in the past. Sanguinius very much is of the opinion his Legion will be annihilated if the flaw is discovered, implying in the conversation its happened in the past, Lorgar implies as much in his conversation with Magnus as well. Why did Malcador choose the Wolves to be sent to the remaining loyal legions to vouchsafe their loyalty. I could find all the other references with the novels to hand, but the above alone is more than enough to make a convincing theory(and once again, theory, I'm not stating this IS what happened) that the Wolves have been utilised to sanction another Legion, once or more, successfully, unsuccessfully or both. 

So yes, I'm well aware it's just a theory, but it's a theory with good reasoning behind it and one that many others share who are just as invested in this hobby as you are and for just as long.


----------



## Words_of_Truth

Well the Space Wolves have some sort affinity with psykers, doesn't Russ have a howl that shields himself from psychic powers? Maybe the Space Wolves are the designated anti psyker legion, the same way in which that rune priest "spied" on the Thousand Son's, so did a rune priest spy on the Blood Angels.


----------



## SonofMalice

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I think the most obvious answer is: just in case.
> 
> Valdor's entire purpose was to defend the Emperor. Magnus had directly threatened the Emperor. Thus, Valdor was keen to end the threat once and for all.


Like I said, common sense answers, that works for me really. Thanks!


----------



## Dead.Blue.Clown

Diatribe1974 said:


> While we've never officially had a_ "Hey, Leman Russ & his Space Wolves killed a Legion!_ official stance from BL, it was more of an accepted _"Hey, it does appear that he & his troops went in and (spoken in a stereotypical Italian mobster dialect & posture) "took care of some of the Big E's problems, ya know? So, if yoos want to stay breathin, yoos best be lisn'in to what the Big E says, ya understand what I'm sayin?"._ While there wasn't any more than that, it did give a solid "maybe" as to what happened to one of them, but nothing more than that. If anything, it gave more tantalizing questions of _"Well, if he did that.....why?"_ rather than the standard _"Derp Derp, Missing Legions, we'll never know why!"_ that's (I guess by your statements) being re-imposed again.


It's not being re-imposed. _It never went away._ People are taking a few light references and saying* "Yes, it's that, it's nothing else."* It's not even the only suggestion of what happened to the Lost Legions in the series, yet those are being ignored, and this one is magically The Truth.

I'm not even taking it away or detracting from it. I'm one of those doing the most to confirm the Wolves acting as executioners. I hinted the Wolves almost marched against the Word Bearers (although what they could hope to do, realistically, you have to wonder), and I've got a freaking quote at the beginning of Betrayer with the World Eaters saying they'd suck at the job and the Wolves are perfect for it. I'm practically the author with the most references for the executioners idea being the truth, yet a lot of the arguments here are suggesting I'm saying the opposite.

The difference is, I'm not going to suddenly start implying they killed the Lost Legions because it's not true. Is it a possibility? Yep. Just like any one of a hundred other possibilities, including why the Ultramarines Legion is 3 times the size of all the others, as noted in _The First Heretic_. That's just another. The Wolves doing that is_ not_ the truth. It's, as you say, a tantalizing possibility. That's what you say you want.

EDIT: I'm also not going to start making stuff up about the Wolves being better at killing Marines than any other Legion, because it's not true. No Space Marine Legion is better at killing other Marines than any other, but some are - arguably - much more reliable. I'm not going to twist the lore because a few guys on a forum desperately need the Wolves to be ultra-killers. (Not you, Diatribe, just saying.) The_ possibility_ is interesting. The fact they act as executioners is interesting. Not giving them extra lives and pretending they're "just better". 



Diatribe1974 said:


> I, for one, preferred the "Just vague enough possibilities of an explanation to sate the average persons question, but more than enough room to play with if you wanted to..." styled stance.


That vagueness is still there. At least, it should be. It arguably is in the series, given what we all know (the fate of the Lost Legions is destined never to be revealed). But, as you can plainly see, it's not vague, anymore. Look at this thread, and tell me where the vagueness - the possibility - is. The only person so far who's said the point of it is that it's a mystery and a possibility is me:



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> You can't choose the Wolves' propaganda and a tiny handful of references as The Truth when the point is that they're tantalising, tiny references to tease and hint, not reshape everything. No one has the authority to say what happened to the Lost Legions, because nothing happened to them. There's no lore there. Nothing to hint to. Little half-references are all there is.
> 
> We, as fans, know the Wolves _didn't_ kill the Lost Legions. No one did, because there's no story there. There are teasing hints at possibilities in the series, and that's all there's ever been.


Everyone else has said "No, it's definitely the Wolves." 

How is that the vagueness you say you desire? You're quite literally arguing against it, and the only proponent of it.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor

Words_of_Truth said:


> Well the Space Wolves have some sort affinity with psykers, doesn't Russ have a howl that shields himself from psychic powers? Maybe the Space Wolves are the designated anti psyker legion, the same way in which that rune priest "spied" on the Thousand Son's, so did a rune priest spy on the Blood Angels.


I don't like the theory - championed by _Lux_ - that the Wolves or Russ were some sort of "anti-psykers". There is not a shred of evidence beyond Russ's howl which greatly effected the Thousand Sons, and his ability to stand toe-to-toe with Magnus in a duel. Both of which I credit to him being a vastly powerful entity embued with warp energy himself.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown

Angel of Blood said:


> Again this would be so much easier if i had my books to find the direct quotes. We know pre-Prospero, that Astartes have been used to sanction another group of Astartes, Russ states as much, why would he lie to Hawser, or even bring it up in the first place.


Again, for the last time, at no point am I saying that's not true.

But which is more likely? Considering we know the Lost Legions' fate will never be revealed, is it more likely that Dan revealed the Lost Legions' fates against all mandate, or that some Wolf-on-Marine violence occurred in some other, valid, circumstance(s) that's not been revealed yet?

I can't spend any more time on this, especially as all I'm doing is reiterating facts. I can't make it any clearer.


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## Diatribe1974

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> It's not being re-imposed. _It never went away._ People are taking a few light references and saying* "Yes, it's that, it's nothing else."* It's not even the only suggestion of what happened to the Lost Legions in the series, yet those are being ignored, and this one is magically The Truth.
> 
> I'm not even taking it away or detracting from it. I'm one of those doing the most to confirm the Wolves acting as executioners. I hinted the Wolves almost marched against the Word Bearers (although what they could hope to do, realistically, you have to wonder), and I've got a freaking quote at the beginning of Betrayer with the World Eaters saying they'd suck at the job and the Wolves are perfect for it. I'm practically the author with the most references for the executioners idea being the truth, yet a lot of the arguments here are suggesting I'm saying the opposite.
> 
> The difference is, I'm not going to suddenly start implying they killed the Lost Legions because it's not true. Is it a possibility? Yep. Just like any one of a hundred other possibilities, including why the Ultramarines Legion is 3 times the size of all the others, as noted in _The First Heretic_. That's just another. The Wolves doing that is_ not_ the truth. It's, as you say, a tantalizing possibility. That's what you say you want.
> 
> 
> 
> That vagueness is still there. At least, it should be. It arguably is in the series, given what we all know (the fate of the Lost Legions is destined never to be revealed). But, as you can plainly see, it's not vague, anymore. Look at this thread, and tell me where the vagueness - the possibility - is. The only person so far who's said the point of it is that it's a mystery and a possibility is me:
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone else has said "No, it's definitely the Wolves."
> 
> How is that the vagueness you say you desire? You're quite literally arguing against it, and the only proponent of it.


Part of me would love to read the stories of what happened to the lost legions. But another part of me warns against it as it'd rid ourselves of another mystery (one that should remain so).


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## Words_of_Truth

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I don't like the theory - championed by _Lux_ - that the Wolves or Russ were some sort of "anti-psykers". There is not a shred of evidence beyond Russ's howl which greatly effected the Thousand Sons, and his ability to stand toe-to-toe with Magnus in a duel. Both of which I credit to him being a vastly powerful entity embued with warp energy himself.


I know I was only theorising, I mean they got to keep hold of psykers even after Nikea they had psykers spy on other legions etc etc.


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## ckcrawford

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I re-read that reply I just posted. How annoyed do I sound?
> 
> Jeez.
> 
> tl;dr - It could be true, CK. Just remember, it's unlikely, and there are plenty of other stories that could also be true.
> 
> There. Way fewer words. Saved us all some time, like a boss.


Tried to reply quickly and there has been much progress in the thread since I last was here. So I skimmed through it as best I can.

Yeah. Can't imagine. I know you know more about the underground heresy stuff going on then I. So sure its annoying to hear me babble. 

I really don't care if that fluff is either or. It doesn't really effect me as my favorite legion will always be the best to me(Iron Warriors). Most of the people against the "anti-astartes" fluff, I believe are unreasonable. I believe I could make a valid argument to prove they are the "anti-astartes" legion that they are "rumored" to be. 

If we leave the obscure facts and look at *if* this fluff can really fit in to the Heresy, I believe it can. As far as right now, I don't think it would hurt fluff if the Wolves turned out to be the "anti-astartes" legion. At least during this time in the Heresy, the World Eaters aren't at their full potential or they are currently going through their transformation. And through your novel they probably do become. It makes sense that the Emperor would create a sort of fail safe system. We've seen this in the _Outcast Dead._ Instead of making a flawed being, it could be a destructive flawed legion that could destroy the other legions. The Emperor certainly has produced something that was stronger than an astartes before. 

Of course the lost legions are difficult, but although they may have confronted the Wolves, that doesn't mean we know what happened to the Lost Legions. They still remain a secret.


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## gen.ahab

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I don't like the theory - championed by _Lux_ - that the Wolves or Russ were some sort of "anti-psykers". There is not a shred of evidence beyond Russ's howl which greatly effected the Thousand Sons, and his ability to stand toe-to-toe with Magnus in a duel. Both of which I credit to him being a vastly powerful entity embued with warp energy himself.


Well that is not necessarily true. There have been several instances where the Wolves have demonstrated an above average resistance to warp powers. We can see it in Prospero Burns, Battle of the Fang, and one of the Ragnar books whose name escapes me. In any case, they do seem to have a slightly above average resistance, even for space marines. 

That being said, are we talking about them being slightly resistant or was Lux saying that they were given the power of the Great Furry God and could mind fuck psykers with the power of the short and curlies?


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## Vaz

@ Adrian; with regards to smallest legion, how does that refer to the Emperors Children and Thousand Sons, which IIRC are listed as being the smallest as well.

Would be extremely useful to have a list to actual facts; such as discovery order, legion size, etc.

Is there a spiders web somewhere in the office interlinking all the facts? Or is it every authors interpretation? Such as how some ships are
listed as being less than 2 km in length, while another states it is 6km in length. Or, as stated, legion a, b and c is all listed as being smallest.

Or, if as apparent, the great unwashed coment on the wrong conclusion; is it not the fault of the author leaving such comments around? After all, the common consensus is that there is no "categorising" value of the canon, there is no 'primary/secondary/tertiary', anything produced is canon; and therefore new subverts old.

Having as tantalising a line as being 'executioner' role in regards to the SW exploits on prospero is going to only create one thing. Then you follow that referrence up with an apparently "out of the blue" comment (after all, SW in the past had their role in the conflict as Prospero/AL Ambush en route to terra", with no interaction between WB or WE and themselves.

With as "big" an event as the history to the 2 lost legions (history that is what? 30 years? old for some), and hence the role they olayed and their reasoning for removal, along with other hints here amd there; like the sigillite artwork, sanguinius comments in fear tontread and 'executioners'; what do you expect?


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## Xisor

What we really need is more bonkers conspiracying from Marines in universe. Like the Salamander and the Iron Hand and the Raven Guard all arguing about who they think is 'out to get them'. (Variously: Blood Angels, Ultramarines, Space Wolves and Thousand Sons?) Or perhaps Raldoron and Sigismund getting into a bruhaha over whether the Emperor even notices the Custodes. 

More daft conspiracy theories, not less.


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## demonictalkin56

Whilst I'm still hoping my idea of a war game demonstrating Butchers nails gone wrong is the 'failure' by the wolves I would love to know WHY is the Edict of Nikea not applied to the bloody wolves; 
surely the argument that 'our psykers are different' would be met with a raised eyebrow from the Emperor at best?


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## ckcrawford

gen.ahab said:


> Well that is not necessarily true. There have been several instances where the Wolves have demonstrated an above average resistance to warp powers. We can see it in Prospero Burns, Battle of the Fang, and one of the Ragnar books whose name escapes me. In any case, they do seem to have a slightly above average resistance, even for space marines.
> 
> That being said, are we talking about them being slightly resistant or was Lux saying that they were given the power of the Great Furry God and could mind fuck psykers with the power of the short and curlies?


Aye, _Battle of the Fang_ that was the first time I've ever heard "anti-psykers" to that degree.


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## Khorne's Fist

ckcrawford said:


> gen.ahab said:
> 
> 
> 
> That being said, are we talking about them being slightly resistant or was Lux saying that they were given the power of the Great Furry God and could mind fuck psykers with the power of the short and curlies?
> 
> 
> 
> Aye, _Battle of the Fang_ that was the first time I've ever heard "anti-psykers" to that degree.
Click to expand...

In ATS, Ahriman does note when he first meets the Wolves that they all have fetishes and totems on their armour that seem to dull them to his ethereal senses, and while they are not intrinsically powerful themselves, are lent power by the wolves' belief in them. 

So, you get enough SWs in the one place, all with a belief that they are protected somewhat from the power of the warp by their wolf tail talismans, then they could be covered by some sort of damping effect. It all seems a bit too similar to the orky belief in their seemingly impossible weapons working, but it could provide an anti-psyker element to them.


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## Diatribe1974

Khorne's Fist said:


> In ATS, Ahriman does note when he first meets the Wolves that they all have fetishes and totems on their armour that seem to dull them to his ethereal senses, and while they are not intrinsically powerful themselves, are lent power by the wolves' belief in them.
> 
> So, you get enough SWs in the one place, all with a belief that they are protected somewhat from the power of the warp by their wolf tail talismans, then they could be covered by some sort of damping effect. It all seems a bit too similar to the orky belief in their seemingly impossible weapons working, but it could provide an anti-psyker element to them.


And you have to remember that in BotF, they (Thousand Sons) had to go in and destroy tons of the wards put in place to protect against beings such as Magnus when he wanted to show up. It is possible that the talismans themselves are simply smaller versions of that as well.


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