# List of new Primarch fights/duels from the Heresy series so far (SPOILERS)



## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Since the Heresy series has really started to increase in number ans introduce completely new plots to the Heresy, or greatly expanded upon stories that were just a single line or so in _Visions_, there has been a drastic increase in the amount of fights between the Primarchs. 

What are your thoughts on these fights? BL were always going to throw in a few more confrontations, they couldn't not do with the scope of the series, but do some of you think there are too many now? That as a result they are losing their impact, due to either the common nature of them or the knowledge that neither of the combatants will actually die.

For better or worse, here's a list of them, split between fights we know are going to happen, or we knew were going to happen, and brand new ones. Obviously there are going to be spoilers here for those not fully up to date.

*Pre-established fights*
Dorn vs Curze (no matter how brief)
Russ vs the Lion
Leman Russ vs Magnus the Red
Ferrus Manus vs Fulgrim
Sanguinius vs Horus
The Emperor vs Horus

As far as I can remember, these are the only fights that had been mentioned before, feel free to point out any I missed though.

*New material fights*
Lorgar vs Corax
Lorgar and Angron vs Guilliman
The Lion vs Curze on multiple occasions
The Lion and Guilliman vs Curze
Vulkan vs Curze
Russ vs Angron
The Khan vs Mortarion
Perturabo vs Fulgrim

This leaves just Alpharius and Omegon as having not had a fight with another Primarch or due one during the Heresy(not including the Scouring in this, not that Eskrador is concrete anyway). What other confrontations do you all expect will come about, as this obviously won't be the end of it.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Angel of Blood said:


> This leaves just Alpharius and Omegon as having not had a fight with another Primarch or due one during the Heresy(not including the Scouring in this, not that Eskrador is concrete anyway).


I'm not sure if this will happen in _The Hunter's Moon_. The synopsis for _The Hunter's Moon_/_Thief of Revelations_ stands as:



> The Thousand Sons and the Space Wolves - two Legions whose destinies were irrevocably entwined at Prospero, and yet who now dance separately to fate's tune. As sanctioned executioners, the Wolves of Fenris were meant to root out treachery at the heart of the Legions...*but would they be capable of carrying out a death sentence upon one of the Emperor's own sons?* Meanwhile, Ahzek Ahriman and Magnus the Red cast their sight over the galaxy, seeking any clue as to what the future might hold.


Considering this is post-Prospero who exactly is this referring to? The only Legion we know they have direct contact with is the Alpha Legion. The front cover illustration also has serpents on it... I know it's a long shot... but maybe. :wink:


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

When did The Khan and Mortarion fight?


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## Lost&Damned (Mar 25, 2012)

Lux said:


> When did The Khan and Mortarion fight?


New white scars novel by chris wraight, its called Scars.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

I expect that Guilliman and Dorn will probably have to eventually fight Angron. Also, though probably not going to happen, I'd love to see Khan take on Curze in a 1v1. That would be quite the fight. 

Additionally I'd love to see more mentions of duels between the lower guys on the totem pole. Kharn the Betrayer was once a Marine, and he was rumored to have been a vicious fighter before turning to Choas. Where was Abbadon during the fighting? How about some of the older Chap[ter Master's and Venerable warriors who are now know Dreadnought pilots? I'd like to hear more of them and their rise/fall in this conflict.

On a akward sider note I would like one of these damn writers, specifically Dan Abnett, to write on the inconsequential Tyranid attack on the Eldar Exodite worlds that took place during this time. After reading through Lexicanum, and finishing the "Path" series, I would like to know how big of an opening impact that "Intial Contact" did for the future of the galaxy


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## nurglespuss (Sep 26, 2008)

*Pre established fights*

Hi there, in the pre-Horus Heresy book series cannon:

(Before Omegon existed) Guilliman fought and killed Alpharius in single combat (Or did he? - Alpha-intrigue)

Guilliman was laid low by Fulgrim who stabbed him with a poisoned blade (thus Guillimans internment into an everlasting stasis field (in which he 'might' be healing incredibly slowly)

So all the Primarchs have had duels.

What surprises me (with the books) is the seemingly unblanced nature of 'good' and 'bad' primarchs...

The good ones (whether through restraint, unwillingness to engage former allies/brothers, shock, unwillingness to believe etc) seem sub-par to the 'bad' primarchs (especially Kurze who seems nigh unstoppable). The slight exception being the Khan, who at least holds his own against his brother.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

That Alpharius + Rowboat fight has been vetoed - it's considered ignored because not only are the AL tricksy, but in the HH:Extermination book, it states the previous origin/discovery story of Alpharius presented within the same Index Astartes article to be a lie.

As to Guilleman versus Fulgrim, it's talking about "so far" within the HH novels. Having just read the unremembered empire, I can see how powerful Curze is - having taken on 3 Primarchs within the space of an hour and, short of deus ex machina on the part of all 3 primarch's he fights, would have killed them all.

Emperorshand - Nid attack? The nids weren't encountered until Tyran were they?


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## Scrad (Apr 4, 2014)

At the Battle for Terra: Angron lists the terms of surrender to the Imperial forces at the Satumine gate and Sanguinius responds. Could be turned into a brief skirmish since i believe it's mentioned that it's face to face?

Would be happy to see any type of clash with the 2 titanic red warriors.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

I hope that in the aftermath of unremembered empire Sanguinus shows some of his predicted wrath in a fight with Konrad, we have read several times his wrath will be terrible, I would not mind seeing some of it. 
if it was indeed alpharius or omegon in legion fighting a black lucifer I would say they do not stand a chance in a melee combat with any other primarch


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## Over Two Meters Tall! (Nov 1, 2010)

Angel of Blood said:


> *Pre-established fights*
> Dorn vs Curze (no matter how brief)
> Russ vs the Lion
> Leman Russ vs Magnus the Red
> ...


I'm not sure if your listing for 'Lorgar vs Corax' represents the fight on Isstvan V, but wasn't it Lorgar and Curze vs Corax? Otherwise we really wouldn't have Lorgar to kick around through the rest of the HH


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Well Corax indisputably beat Lorgar, but Curze intervened to save Lorgar. Can't really count Curze and Corax even fighting, Corax took one look at the situation and took off.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

Vaz said:


> That Alpharius + Rowboat fight has been vetoed - it's considered ignored because not only are the AL tricksy, but in the HH:Extermination book, it states the previous origin/discovery story of Alpharius presented within the same Index Astartes article to be a lie.


Nah son, he dead, or at least one of them is. I read Hunt for Voldorious, Alphy would be ashamed!

ON SUBJECT: Can someone maybe list what books these fights took place as well? I am interested in a couple, and I might actually buy a book just to read about these encounters.


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

CJay said:


> Nah son, he dead, or at least one of them is. I read Hunt for Voldorious, Alphy would be ashamed!


No, its been discounted. Ultramarines have no record of the fight, and the one spreading the story was found out to be an Alpha Legion spy.


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## CJay (Aug 25, 2010)

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Alpha_Legion

^ this says he dead.

I like to think he is dead, which also explains the fragmenting and the poor post-heresy performance, Not posting on this again, it's off topic, and if you feel the need to prove me wrong you can always PM me.

ON SUBJECT AGAIN: Can we also maybe put up a spoilers a say who got the "better" or say if it was a "draw" for each fight?


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

Just because the 40k wiki says he's dead, does mean he is in anyway at all.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

CJay said:


> http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Alpha_Legion
> 
> ^ this says he dead.


Don't trust the wiki. If there's a site to "trust" it's the Lexicanum, which provides a more reasoned answer - but even then, it's not completely proved that he's "dead".



> I like to think he is dead, which also explains the fragmenting and the poor post-heresy performance, Not posting on this again, it's off topic, and if you feel the need to prove me wrong you can always PM me.


The idiocy of the writers trying to put into writing for 12 year olds the battle tactics of a paragon of superhuman intelligence who is notoriously tricksy is apparent. 40K writers aren't exactly the best writers around in any case (Andy Hoare is right up there as a former game "developer" (I say that loosely) turned "writer" (again, loosely)). You were the one who cared to bring it up; rather than leaving "false" information around for other people to read to save your blushes, I'd rather just leave it written down in public forum that Eskrador was not a proven fight between any Primarch. I don't have my Index Astartes collection to hand, but long story short - anything that has been written down in that IA article has been largely ignored by the Horus Heresy writers at large - right down to the colour schemes of the traitor legions; Sons of Horus and Alpha Legion notably. Throw into the history of the Alpha Legion presented in Alpha Legion which is alluded to, but dismissed as being a lie in the HH:Books, and you can see where we're going with this train of thought.

Honestly? Personally? I'd love to see the tricksiness of the AL come unstuck, and, he was killed, but if I'm remembering the Eskrador conflict completely, Guilliman used tactics that "were not codex" - Alpharius is so tricksy he wouldn't let that happen - this is the guy who gave entire sectors of loyalist planets (while he was still "loyalist") cancer to prevent an alien parasite race from returning.



> ON SUBJECT AGAIN: Can we also maybe put up a spoilers a say who got the "better" or say if it was a "draw" for each fight?


That isn't so much a list, more of a complete discussion over it. You'll lead to people saying Mortarion vs Khan saying that Mortarion was "winning" - despite the Khan holding his own and not being able to utilise his main tactics of rapid assault.

Then you also involve the different "power levels" of the writers - Gav Thorpe had his Rowboat nearly killed by an Alpha Legion Kill Team of 10 men, while Curze was only able to kill 1 Space Wolf despite being strong enough to near enough effortlessly kill 3 Primarchs - and yet we've seen ADB's Erebus take blasts from a Titan Weapon, and his Angron throw down a titan after is stomped on him; and lets not even get into Graham McNeils level of whimsy where Magnus demolished (Warlord class?) titans and with a single shout Fulgrim liquidised the crew of another?

Any list of "win/loss" is going to be full of such contradictions in the fluff, making it impossible to state who won where, except in the event of Sanguinius, Curze and Ferrus Manus.


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## emporershand89 (Jun 11, 2010)

Vaz said:


> Emperorshand - Nid attack? The nids weren't encountered until Tyran were they?


Yes it is breifly mentioned in two novels, the recent Ciaphas Cain novel (in which the Magos Bioligicus metnions that once of her specimens is from the time of the "Heresy), as well as "The Path of the Eldar" bundle I recent bought which includes the "Path of the Outcast." Novel. In it there is a breif mention of a "Hive Fleet Ouroboros," which both the book and Lexicanum do state was destroyed when the Emporer lead a 12-day battle against the "Legion of Ouroboros." To this day it is the earliest Hive Fleet mention that I've heard of, and honestly shows that it as not just the Forces of Chaos that the Imperium has to worry about.

Everyone vs Cruze!!!


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## Valrak (Jul 23, 2011)

I think Omegon will end up fighting Alpharius, one killing the other, who that will be is up to us maybe?


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

emporershand89 said:


> Yes it is breifly mentioned in two novels, the recent Ciaphas Cain novel (in which the Magos Bioligicus metnions that once of her specimens is from the time of the "Heresy), as well as "The Path of the Eldar" bundle I recent bought which includes the "Path of the Outcast." Novel. In it there is a breif mention of a "Hive Fleet Ouroboros," which both the book and Lexicanum do state was destroyed when the Emporer lead a 12-day battle against the "Legion of Ouroboros." To this day it is the earliest Hive Fleet mention that I've heard of, and honestly shows that it as not just the Forces of Chaos that the Imperium has to worry about.
> 
> Everyone vs Cruze!!!


That's interesting. Dug out the Lexicanum, and it's briefly mentioned in there. One thing that is always spoken of is how time flows oddly in the warp, but it always travels onwards - i.e a ship can enter the warp, and a thousand years pass, but to them, only a week has done so, or conversely, a week passes outside, but a thousand years inside the warp passes. This Hive Fleet Ouroboros is one occasion where time actually flows backwards - i.e X years pass in "real time", but they travel back in time through the warp. According to the 5th edition dex, this is disproved due to lack of Warp Travel, but accidentally getting swallowed into the Eye of Terror or some other warp storm, and the nature (or rather, lack of) of the warp means that it can still happen.

Can you provide the exact quote for the Path of the Outcast? The 4th Edition Dex quote is apparently something that's written by a Cardinal looking to extoll the virtues of his planet; the first recorded history of the planet etc, while Sandy Mitchell's grasp of 40K is... rather fast and loose. And being fair, Gav Thorpe... eh. To know the quality of writing that he produces within the 30K "canon", you're looking at Deliverance Lost type quality, while Soulforge was pretty terrible (but to be expected of the 30K LE books, with the exception of Aurelian).

No offence, but I think it would fuck with the Heresy era too much to simply have another "face" show up just because it ties in with 40K. Look at the hate that Honsou has - only the major players within the Heresy and still active within 40K are given page time, and even that is fleeting; Abaddon, Kharn, Typhus, the only one with any real page time is Lucius, and that's because it's Graham McNeil, and Graham McNeil is about as capable with regard to creating greater-than-one-dimensional characters as a ripped crisp packet is as capable as being a condom, so he piggy backs off the pool of existing "talent" (and still makes them as dynamic as a cardboard cut out) such as Lucius, or his own existing characters, like Honsou. And he's pretty much universally disliked by it (I've yet to see anyone with any actual history with the game enjoy him name dropping - I'm awaiting his 40K UM novel that has "descended" Aeonid Thiel or ones who can trace their lineage back to Ventanus etc.

I don't mean to offend you either, when I mention that no-one actually cares about the Tyranids, either. Because they're your faceless BBEG that you use when you can't actually be arsed using a plot, so you copy Prometheus, Alien, or Aliens. We have enough of those with fliblidoobldoopop and teapot-canary-cowmen that are just randomly made up to have the legions destroy them to show exactly how powerful they are. It's the Heresy era. What we care about is the Legions butting heads. We all want the Emperor's big reveal - it's for this reason I think they've deliberately stayed away from Ullanor, and mentions of him have been small - even Prospero Burns, or A Thousand Sons, whichever one it was that had the Council of Nikaea didn't overuse the Emperor. At the end of the day, he's the Darth Vader, or Yoda. He's apparently this all powerful character, but you just want to see how good he is, and then when you get to see a little teaser in Episode 5, and finally the full battle in Episode 6, it's like holy fuck. That's what you want to see, not some nameless race which for all intents and purposes could be the tyranids getting facebeaten.


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## Moriouce (Oct 20, 2009)

Maybe Ouroboros was a evolutionary experiment by the Hive Mind that found Warp Travel to dangerous and did not try to develope it further knowing it had all the time in the universe. 

By what means does Genestealers travel? Since they can turn up lightyears ahead of the fleet and that without Narwhales.


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## Squire (Jan 15, 2013)

Valrak said:


> I think Omegon will end up fighting Alpharius, one killing the other, who that will be is up to us maybe?


That's an interesting thought and something I hadn't considered. Doesn't seem unlikely. One dabbles in chaos while they're apart and eventually they come together again and have a fight like Obi Wan and Anakin

Because the fate of their primarch isn't clearly known, unlike the others, the AL are the most interesting legion to me as far as the HH series goes right now. Maybe the Guilliman thing is canon and maybe it isn't, but if true that still leaves a primarch out there in the universe- unless he fell during the heresy. If we get that story I dearly hope the right author is behind it because it could be epic. The writer of Legion would be fine by me


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## Phoebus (Apr 17, 2010)

Vaz said:


> As to Guilleman versus Fulgrim, it's talking about "so far" within the HH novels. Having just read the unremembered empire, I can see how powerful Curze is - having taken on 3 Primarchs within the space of an hour and, short of deus ex machina on the part of all 3 primarch's he fights, would have killed them all.


The problem is that said duels came courtesy of a deus ex machine to begin with: Curze's traumatic visions turning into a sort of "Spidey Sense!" whilst in the middle of combat.

Look, I could really care less whether Primarch X beats Primarch Y or vice-versa. Don't take this as me being sore that Curze bested the Lion AND Guilliman at the same time. It's just a monumental headache for me when primarchs are written so differently in regards to their powers and their capacity for destruction or survival. What I'm specifically referencing is the manifestation of powers that jar with previous material.

So, for instance, I don't care so much if post-possession Fulgrim is able to pull off some psychic trick that causes a titan (or its crew, I can't remember) explode (or whatever). It does, however, bother me when Curze miraculously develops a form of combat-prophecy that was conspicuously absent when the Lion dealt him an underhanded blow, when Corswain stabbed him through the spine, when the Lion translated his whole fleet on top of the Night Lords', when the Lion subsequently tore his throat out, and when the two fought for yet a third time aboard the _Invincible Reason_.

In closing, I want to reemphasize that I'm not so vested in these characters that Curze laying Guilliman low with a kick in the balls long enough to ground and pound the Lion to unconsciousness bothers me - so long as its all done within the right context. Everything about that battle was done wrong, though - in my humble opinion. Everything from how Curze got to Macragge, to how he fought his way through it, to how Vulkan was handled, to how the fights between the primarchs went down, all the way to how Curze somehow escaped from it all. It was a bitter disappointment given the expectations I had for that novel.


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## piemelke (Oct 13, 2010)

good post phoebus


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## Lux (Apr 17, 2010)

Phoebus said:


> The problem is that said duels came courtesy of a deus ex machine to begin with: Curze's traumatic visions turning into a sort of "Spidey Sense!" whilst in the middle of combat.
> 
> Look, I could really care less whether Primarch X beats Primarch Y or vice-versa. Don't take this as me being sore that Curze bested the Lion AND Guilliman at the same time. It's just a monumental headache for me when primarchs are written so differently in regards to their powers and their capacity for destruction or survival. What I'm specifically referencing is the manifestation of powers that jar with previous material.
> 
> ...


This was conveyed very well, I applaud you for that. 

On another note I must add that I loved Unremembered Empire, and in particular the development of Curze as a character as well as his ability to actively shape fate moment to moment.


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