# Legion lists and balancing fluff versus competitiveness



## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

I have seen many lists that start "I wanted a (insert legion) force that kept to the fluff, but was also competitive." I wanted to discuss this, and how to counter this with A) FLUFFY builds and B) solid tactics.


----------



## cooldudeskillz (Jun 7, 2008)

any chaos legion is something not to underestimate, world eaters are extreme combat powerhouses while thousand sons and say emperors children are strong range armys. You can keep to the fluff of your legion and still have a competitive army.

usually people asume that having lots of diffierent units is good and makes a better competitive list than say a army list composed of similar units all taylored to a single roll. Although having lots of units makes your army more flexible is doesn't make it stronger than an army with only a few diffierent units.

I collect black legion(well my own version of it) so i take lots of diffierent units from each god and this doesn't interfere with fluff.


----------



## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Just don't use anything too chaos-y like spawn, possessed, or the dreadnought and you should be good to go.


----------



## weasly (Jun 18, 2008)

Really the besy way would be to make your list and practice and then the player will make it competitive because he is good at using the amry. Anyone making a legion specific arm which is Emperors Children, 1000 sons, death guard or world eaters will have a pretty hard army anyway. The children can be menouverable and fire lots of shots, the sons will the bane of any marine army, the guard will be hard to kill so they have extra time to shoot and get in position and the world eaters have lots of attacks plus high S to kill their enemies in assault.


----------



## DarKKKKK (Feb 22, 2008)

If you plan on making a Legion based army, stick to their roots and use their strength and beaf it up as much as possible with supporting units. 

In Khorne armies, use Vindicators and Defilers with 2 CCWs or more to thin out the lines of larger groups of troops before getting into CC with them. Maybe some supporting Terminators. Also put the Berzerkers in some rhinos.

For Slaanesh, definitely use their great version of the Daemon Prince with Wings and Lash and/or Lucius. Use a lot of Noise Marines stocked with heavier weapons maybe give a couple squads blastmasters and sonic blasters and a couple of others to be more frontline with just sonic blasters and a doom siren for the sergeant. Don't waste points on Rhinos and transports because of all the other upgrades you can put on the Noise marines themselves, just foot-slog them. Some Obliterators for heavy support choice and/or Predators. 

Death Guard is all about the Plague Marines, use as many as possible all with 2 Plasma Guns and Champion with Power Fist. HQ choice is usually a Nurgle Daemon Prince with wings and Nurgle's Rot or a Nurgle Lord with whatever upgrades you want. A good Lord is one with the Plaguebringer and on the Nurgle Steed. If your a fan of Nurgle bikers, bring them in. They are fast and very high toughness. Also could back them up with a Nurgle Sorceror on a bike as well. Sometimes just a small squad of Nurgle Terminators is a good choice to deep strike and upset your enemies tactics/strategies. For Heavy Support for Death Guard is mostly Obliterators and/or Defilers.

Thousand Sons again, more and more troops. HQ is Sorcerors and more Sorcerors, maybe a Daemon Prince, but not often. If your in a huge battle, you could add it a large squad of Tzeentch Terminators with 2 Reaper Autocannons and many other upgrades may also be worth it. Heavy Support is mostly just all about the Obliterators, maybe a Defiler, but usually more points well spent on Obliterators.


----------



## rVctn_Khaiyn (Dec 1, 2007)

DarKKKKK said:


> Death Guard is all about the Plague Marines, use as many as possible all with 2 Plasma Guns and Champion with Power Fist. HQ choice is usually a Nurgle Daemon Prince with wings and Nurgle's Rot or a Nurgle Lord with whatever upgrades you want. A good Lord is one with the Plaguebringer and on the Nurgle Steed. If your a fan of Nurgle bikers, bring them in. They are fast and very high toughness. Also could back them up with a Nurgle Sorceror on a bike as well. Sometimes just a small squad of Nurgle Terminators is a good choice to deep strike and upset your enemies tactics/strategies. For Heavy Support for Death Guard is mostly Obliterators and/or Defilers.
> 
> Thousand Sons again, more and more troops. HQ is Sorcerors and more Sorcerors, maybe a Daemon Prince, but not often. If your in a huge battle, you could add it a large squad of Tzeentch Terminators with 2 Reaper Autocannons and many other upgrades may also be worth it. Heavy Support is mostly just all about the Obliterators, maybe a Defiler, but usually more points well spent on Obliterators.


Please correct me if I'm wrong, but considering that we're talking from a fluff standpoint; I think that, originally, Nurgle didn't take bikes, and Tzeentch didn't take Terminators. I just thought I'd add that in case he wants to follow the original fluff right to a tee.

As I said, I could be very wrong (it's been a long while since I sold my old Chaos Codex) and if so, sorry for any confusion.


----------



## BlackHandofHorus (Aug 11, 2008)

From what ive been reading i think they killed alot of the best fluff when they made the legions basically paint jobs only. I know if they still had special rules for Alpha Legion and Iron warriors id be all over them.

I really think that the best fluff chaos army now is Black Legion or Red Corsairs given how much story line there is for Abaddon and Huron.


----------



## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

BlackHandofHorus said:


> From what ive been reading i think they killed alot of the best fluff when they made the legions basically paint jobs only. I know if they still had special rules for Alpha Legion and Iron warriors id be all over them.
> 
> I really think that the best fluff chaos army now is Black Legion or Red Corsairs given how much story line there is for Abaddon and Huron.


There was no special rules until the index astartes, previously the fluff guided selection more than rules.


----------



## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

I think it is time to take this thread in another directiion. let's focus on competitive builds that keep to legion fluff. please include a rationale for each selection or any other pertinent info.

will start with my own legion, the Death guard.

Hq, lord with minimal wargear, such as power weapon and combi bolter.
This is because too much gear becomes a point sink, the combi bolter is to add flexibility.

Elites: one to three dreads, with twin auto cannons, or plasma cannons.
this helps to increase the firepower without tanks, in addition to this, the dread is capable of rilling multiple roles, as it is great in close combat.
Troops four to six squads of seven or fourteen, half with two plasma guns half with two melta guns. 

An absolute must for death guard. Troops are the heart and soul of the death guard. the mix of special weapons is to A) keep the list from suffering from over-specialisation, and B) keep the opponent off-balance in regards to which unit to attack, as they are as identical as possible, and equally valuable.

Fast attack: Death guard don't need 'em, don't want 'em.

Heavy support: one to three havoc squads with 7-14 marines, ion, and either 4 plasma guns, or 4 meltas.
Strong reccomendation to take 14, as the extra marines can make the difference between killing your enemy, and never leaving the deployment zone.


----------



## AnubisBlade (Aug 5, 2008)

dreads are a waste of time in CSM lists too often they go nuts and kill your own guys.

instead field termies in squads of 3 (2 lightning claws and 1 power sword with a h-flamer or a reaper) they are tough and can do as much dmg or more depending on your deployment of them and if you can get em into HtH

havocs cost too much for 14 guys take a 10 man with flamers and plasma pistol in a rhino and bumb rush em forward till ya are close then disembark (before tank moves) and BBQ em then assault em ya are tough enough to make anyone work for those wounds and vs non power weapon units ya got the FNP to keep ya in there till the job is done


----------



## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

AnubisBlade said:


> dreads are a waste of time in CSM lists too often they go nuts and kill your own guys.
> 
> instead field termies in squads of 3 (2 lightning claws and 1 power sword with a h-flamer or a reaper) they are tough and can do as much dmg or more depending on your deployment of them and if you can get em into HtH
> 
> havocs cost too much for 14 guys take a 10 man with flamers and plasma pistol in a rhino and bumb rush em forward till ya are close then disembark (before tank moves) and BBQ em then assault em ya are tough enough to make anyone work for those wounds and vs non power weapon units ya got the FNP to keep ya in there till the job is done


If it was not clear, I apologise, this is not so much as a discussion of the merits of units (chaos marine list threads are for that) but to discuss using legion lists, and balancing fluff and competitiveness.


----------



## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

Sounds fluffy enough to me mort. Aren't terminators very nurgley as well as a lot of pictures I've seen nurgle in they have lots of terminators surrounding typhus....


----------



## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

the point is to not devolve into the same discussion tha occur twenty times a day on the list thread, but to take a whole-list approach, with as much effort put into the fluff as into competitiveness, the previous response was less an argument about whether it was fluffy, or competitive, but more akin to a posting to fix the list, that was why I posted the clarification.

Agreed that terminators are well within the fluff, but I included the dreads for three reasons; It is a great modeling oppurtunity, It is a great all around unit( it performs well against infantry, vehicles and monstrous creatures), and it is cost efficient, leaving more points for troops, the mainstay of the deathguard.

However, rhino rush is NOT within the fluff of the deathguard.
It is the reason for taking advantage of the 5-20 squad size range, using the extras to both improve the offensive ability and the defensive ability of the squad.

Again I apologise for miscommunications.
Think of this as a post-graduate program for those of us wishing to take our game further, with the thesis being the thread topic. It is somewhat self guided, with some guidelines to help keep focus. We are both the students and instructors. I see so many list threads that end up with nearly identical recommendations, I decided to have a more general discussion with the restrictions in order to encourage more creative lists that still are competitive, both at the shop, and in tourneys.



In affition, if any non chaos players want to participate by offering scenarios that are difficult, please post. It will be appreciated.


----------



## leham89 (Aug 8, 2008)

y shouldnt you use possessed, spawns or dreads?


----------



## Arkion (Nov 21, 2007)

Let me help by posting some guidelines. Feel free to tweak these or disagree.

*Word Bearers*: infantry heavy, Icon of Chaos Glory, with summoned demons. Chaos Lords (as Dark Apostles) before Daemon Princes.

*Emperor's Children*: Noise Marines. Rhinos, ornately styled vehicles. Daemon Prince with lash and wings (they value physical perfection, after all!)

*Alpha Legion*: Plenty of infiltrating Chosen. Nothing blatantly demonic - we want to be mistaken for loyalists, after all! However, I can see them using summoned demons...

(ack! morning interruptions... if I don't come back to finish this, well, take it for whatever value it has to you!)


----------



## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

Arkion said:


> Let me help by posting some guidelines. Feel free to tweak these or disagree.
> 
> *Word Bearers*: infantry heavy, Icon of Chaos Glory, with summoned demons. Chaos Lords (as Dark Apostles) before Daemon Princes.
> 
> ...


great post right on track, lets work with this.

*Iron warriors* Lord (w/ power fist to simulate servo arm) mases of infantry with heavy weapons , vindicators (the one force where they are nearly mandatory) light on fast attack and summoned daemons.

*Night lords* Daemon prince with wings, chosen, leave the dread at home, emphasize the fast attack,with at least one squad of raptors any heavy support has to be mobile, so preds with sponsons emoved ,vindies defilers for large battles.


----------



## lucullus (Jul 4, 2008)

I have a 1000p Nurgle/Death Guard list I have been testing for a local tourney coming up and so far it has been doing well.

1 chaos lord power weapon, combi melta, mark of nurgle.

6 death guard including champ w/power fist and personal icon. 1 plasma gun, bare rhino

7 death guard including champ w/power fist and personal icon. 1 plasma gun, bare rhino

1 vindicator

1 unit of 2 obliterators

7 summoned deamons (using plague bearers for the models)

Fluff wise I have all of the models nurglized (The vehicles,troops and obliterators) Also unit of 7 models lord +6DG 7DG and 7Summoned Deamons. 

The other version I have been testing I drop 1 rhino add on DG to the first unit and replace the lord with a DP wings mark nurgle and nurgles rot for clearing horde a 14" pie plate(6" radius from the base) kills alot of orcs.

Also since summoned deamons count a troops I use them to capture objectives. For KP missions I have a fairly low amount of units and they are hard to kill units so I don't give up many KP.


----------



## cranvill (Jul 20, 2008)

iv been playing my iron warriors legion for ages now and try and stick as close to the fluff as i can i normal go with lots of troops all with heavy wepons,No demons,demon princes or possed No fast attack (just a couple of RINIO's ) and one defiler ,one vindicator and eaver a sqwad of Oblitorators or Pread or landraider.

My army works very well with a nice balance of anti tank and anti inftranty along with lots of troops to set up overlapping fire arcs.

My frend all sow has a world eaters legion army and that all soo is prure fluffy too and that is sick lol


----------



## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

I've seen iron warriors use small unupgraded terminators just to have 3 land raiders plus the vindicators.... Would people call that fluffy?? It was nice to see so many big tanks in one game though....


----------



## Son of mortarion (Apr 24, 2008)

I wouldn't call that fluffy, as it reeks of powergaming like wek dead fish reeks of stink.


A better list would have one squad of termies in a land raider, and take the points spent on the other two land raiders and buy either three havoc squads or three vindicators.

The three landraider list is more of a black legion list, as they are more likely to fir=eld a large number of termies. 

Iron warriors, would be less likely to use much in the way of transports, as they are siege warriors, and sieges are static. They would need as many heavy weapons as they can get, and at least one vinidcator.


----------



## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

oh right.... So dreads maybe? Sorry if I'm not adding much to this thread.... I'm not a great chaos head but amvery interested in the fluff


----------



## killmaimburn (Mar 19, 2008)

If you can powergame with a fluffy list its ok with me. After all, a slaanesh list can take 2 DP with lash and wings, and then noise marines to shoot that stuff up or make early assaults (lash into a cone for doom siren anyone?) However it comes down to how fluffy your playstyle can be. If you want a shooty list, go tzeentch or slaanesh. If you want close combat, go slaanesh or khorne. If you want to sit on objectives and be immovable, go nurgle, or tzeentch if your getting shot off of objectives by heavy weapon fire with strength higher than 8 or AP better than 3.


----------



## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

The thing with that is it's failry easy to justify powergaming by fluff. My chapter are so lyal toi the the emperor that they will beat their enemies using any available advantages and opportunities yada yada yada.... I like fluffy armies. That's why I have very few tanks and lots of HQs in my army.... I'd really like to see some very fluffy lists from here as a lot of chaos seem to be going power gaming. NOt all, but a lot of the players around me.... which is a shame.....


----------



## LordWaffles (Jan 15, 2008)

Lord Reevan said:


> The thing with that is it's failry easy to justify powergaming by fluff. My chapter are so lyal toi the the emperor that they will beat their enemies using any available advantages and opportunities yada yada yada.... I like fluffy armies. That's why I have very few tanks and lots of HQs in my army.... I'd really like to see some very fluffy lists from here as a lot of chaos seem to be going power gaming. NOt all, but a lot of the players around me.... which is a shame.....


How do you really powergame with the new chaos codex? Besides flying daemon princes I mean. Nothing in the codex is overly "OMG WTF IMBA" besides lash.

I tried keeping lists fluffy, but at the end of the day, I'd rather have a good solid fight with another strong list than just play "fluffy chaos" and get my ass handed to me because I was silly enough to take a dreadnought or possessed.

Also, with the new rules on combat resolution, I'm finding non-fearless troops to be wiped out alot faster.

Though to be fair to my legion, I'm always taking infiltrating chosen to make up the "real leaders" of my warband


----------



## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

LordWaffles said:


> How do you really powergame with the new chaos codex? Besides flying daemon princes I mean. Nothing in the codex is overly "OMG WTF IMBA" besides lash.
> 
> I tried keeping lists fluffy, but at the end of the day, I'd rather have a good solid fight with another strong list than just play "fluffy chaos" and get my ass handed to me because I was silly enough to take a dreadnought or possessed.
> 
> ...


Not the chaos codex per se, but in general.... But yeah I've taken on two flying princes and it's a bitch.... 

Would a word bearers army be fluffy if it contained say lots of average sized undivided with chaos glory banners, Undivided daemon prince with same thing and lots of lesser daemons?? and maybe the odd defiler as that is daemon posessed


----------



## cranvill (Jul 20, 2008)

Lord Reevan said:


> I've seen iron warriors use small unupgraded terminators just to have 3 land raiders plus the vindicators....QUOTE]
> 
> Can you still do that in this edistion of chaos ?? i know you could in the old edistion but not the new one.(not that i would feild such a formastion with my iron warriors but still a way to use up the points )


----------



## Lord Reevan (May 1, 2008)

All terminators have the option of dedicated land raiders in their unit entry.... So yes they can....


----------



## cranvill (Jul 20, 2008)

that is quite sick realy i thort they had stopped that in this edistion codex.

ho well its still sick


----------



## killmaimburn (Mar 19, 2008)

Yeah it is, I have a list that runs two defilers, a vindicator, and terminators with a dedicated land raider.


----------

