# Traitor guard fluff help



## Talos (Aug 4, 2008)

Right not sure if this is the right place as I need help with Fluff and modeling.
Ok I know I have asked for alot of help with my guard and you guys have been a massive help I just need a little more.
Right my Traitor guard project is under way, so far I have around 140 men to make/paint and 5 tanks.
So far I have only made and painted around 10 men and already I have a problem.
I would like to use these models with my CSM in apoc but also as a stand alone army. But my CSM army is a mix batch of EC and Iron Warriors which I put together quickly for a tourny. So having trouble getting a good fluffy feel for them. I will be remaking my CSM with some Daemons for apoc.
I started off thinking I would like a Khorne based Guard but not like Blood pact more feral. So I painted up these models

























But I am not sure if I could make a whole army of beastmen. 
*So my Main question is can you think of a way to make a Traitor guard army which uses Slaanesh and Khorne forces and which CSM legion would allie with them.
Also which units in the new IG codex would you split between Khorne and Slaanesh.*

Or should I stick to a Feral army feel and make a World eaters army for apoc.
If I stick to a feral theme any body got any good Conversion ideas. I am already using Old Rat orges and Vermin lords with Spawn parts for Ogryns.


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Khorne and Slaanesh? That is a tough one. Official fluff still says they hate each other, so I can't really see why these two forces would be in the same army together. However, I often use the concept of a powerful lord uniting two opposing forces. Sprinkle in a few units of nurgle-themed and tzeentch themed units and you could make the army look like it was dedicated to all four gods. As long as your lord appeared undivided, its all good.

Other then that, I really couldn't see a way around that rivalry. Its a fundamental philosophical difference, so these two factions think nothing alike. Anyway, the models look great. Keep up the good work and good luck.

*Edit*
As for a leader, you might want to look into one of the special characters and use a 'count as'. I believe Yarrick might have the stats for it. Haven't seen the new codex yet, but I heard he is a tough bastard and that power claw makes him stronger. This fits in line with Chaos' tendency to lead through strength. That depends, of course, on if Yarrick is an HQ choice. But I am sure you get the idea.


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

Interesting Idea.

(Melding ideas, musings)

I guess the first thing that strikes me is what do both have in common as powers and what they represent. Both gods so to speak evoke powerful emotions. I have never played Chaos and my reading of the fluff for it really stopped at Slaves of Darkness, far too long ago.... but consider;

Khorne, the blood god... the destroyer. As a god he evokes powerful emotions of destruction. Slaanesh on the other hand is all about different emotions and the sensations of unrestriction as opposed to your just dead. What if you based the force off purely a merging of the sensations that destruction evokes.

If you take that to its natural extreme, its about DEATH with Khorne and the end of sensation and with Slaanesh its about any emotion and taking it to extremes. The sensations of death perhaps? Maybe almost like a grim reaper type army? They bring death.... but its about entropy and the feelings of loss associated with this? Or at the other extreme a force of bezerkers caught up in their own emotions of killing and blood lust. Part of Khornes war cry is to Maim.... which causes pain. 

Anyway thats one possible angle... yes it can be argued about 3000000 ways. I am just giving an angle you could work if you really had to do this. If I then had to pick a CSM ally force?? Night Lords... death through sheer terror. (the Sensation of death... destruction through terror and fear seems to kind of appease both gods to a degree). You could also do World Eaters as they appear to be very bezerk emotionally...

As for forces.... I would go conscript heavy... making them look very much like perhaps they have just fallen under the sway of Chaos, a human population that has just been taken under Khorne's wing so to speak.

If you were going for a feral theme.... I would be looking at Necromunda ratskins and as many boxes of skaven as you can get your hands on and do an entire feral muto army. Make your leader some kind of genetic mad skaven half man muto thingy and use the rules a Fabius Bile type leader who creates super men of genetic destruction who just happen to look rather beasty in appearance.

Hope this helps.


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## CamTheApostle (Oct 31, 2008)

Alexious said:


> I guess the first thing that strikes me is what do both have in common as powers and what they represent. Both gods so to speak evoke powerful emotions. I have never played Chaos and my reading of the fluff for it really stopped at Slaves of Darkness, far too long ago.... but consider;
> 
> Khorne, the blood god... the destroyer. As a god he evokes powerful emotions of destruction. Slaanesh on the other hand is all about different emotions and the sensations of unrestriction as opposed to your just dead. What if you based the force off purely a merging of the sensations that destruction evokes.
> 
> If you take that to its natural extreme, its about DEATH with Khorne and the end of sensation and with Slaanesh its about any emotion and taking it to extremes. The sensations of death perhaps? Maybe almost like a grim reaper type army? They bring death.... but its about entropy and the feelings of loss associated with this? Or at the other extreme a force of bezerkers caught up in their own emotions of killing and blood lust. Part of Khornes war cry is to Maim.... which causes pain.


While thats a great concept, you have understand that Khorne and Slaanesh just don't mix. They are philosophical opposites and eternal rivals. They are constantly at war, seeking to destroy and undo each other. As all the Gods of Chaos are petty, they reflect this in their followers. While their philosophies could find a 'middle ground', they would never allow it. 

Now, they have downgraded rivalry to almost nothing in the latest chaos-themed codices, but that is because GW is A BUNCH OF MONEY-GRUBBING BASTARDS WHO THINK THE PLAYERS ARE IDIOTS! Sorry, where was I? Oh right. In the older CSM codices, where fluff actually mattered, a Lord with a mark of one god could never take followers of his rival god in his army. In fact, I understand that in older fantasy chaos armies, units of rival gods within the same army would fight a round of combat against each other before the game commenced (thus illustrating how much they hate each other).

Basically, middle-ground isn't fluffy. The hate is pure and uncompromising. Only a greater threat will force these factions to put their hatred aside, such as a very strong lord who aligned to neither side.

*Edit*
Oh, and remember that the Gods of Chaos are merely super-sentient, near-omnipotent concepts. They can't change or mix, because doing so would destroy them and remake them into something else. Basically, they lack free will.


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## Talos (Aug 4, 2008)

Thanks for the responses guys. I have been a Chaos fan since slaves of Darkness so I know the gods should not get along I was thinking for ages of a way to get Khorne and Slaanesh together and there is no fluff way other than undivided. I like the idea of Yarrik I will have to check his stats and see if I can make a good Chaos leader for him.
I like my beastmen soldiers and I think I have come up with a good theme. 
I thought about using the Straken rules for Fablious Bile. Straken has a 3+ save so that sorts out power armour , he also has a type of powerweapon which has good AP I think that covers Bile's wierd arm things he has on his backpack.
So I will be creating a army of Mutants of all Gods which Worship bile as there creator. 
I was thinking his command squad could be enhanced marines but I will be mixing Ork pieces with SM so not all of them will be fully armored, I think this will cover the 4+ save.

For Khorne mutants I am going with Beastmen. Nurgle I think will be Zombies for Slaanesh and Tzeentch I am not sure yet.

Do you think this will work as Bile is Slaanesh but I always saw him as more undivided as he just whats to create things.


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

My comment would be use Bile as what you like... I get the feeling your attempting to hammer a concept into pre-written fluff which just happens to be under the GW label. The idea has always been since day 1 of trader to have what your scope is and go with it.

As for the other comments/general fluff etc at al.



GW is about doing your own thing though in a lot of respects. Its written several places why they did 18 chapters for first founding and left out 2? one for traitors one for loyal.. so that we could go design them if we so wanted. Why the Imperiums so barely snapshotted? so we can design our own worlds and regiments of guard. Why there is no true number of marine chapters out there? So that there never is a published list of whats is and what is not a real chapter.

The game evolves and fluff changes constantly... it always will. If some writer gets something published by GW in the next five years which is about some mystical chaos warband that mixes Slaanesh and Khorne would that in your mind give you the "right" to field it as an army? When I started playing the idea of a Commissar as a general was like... are you on drugs? Guardsmen in Rhino's another perfect concept that was classed as perfectly legit. In fact if you want to go really wild check out the old Compendium and look for the rules for DESIGN your own ANTI-GRAV weapon platform or vehicle... If you dared do such a thing today you would be hounded out of your local GW for not having a citadel minature.... 

Sometime though in the last 10 years it changed... boards like this one and groups became hooked on the drugs of if its not in the rules... producing a legion of rules following freakazoids who take it far too seriously if you dare use something that isnt classed as fully "CHAPTER APPROVED". I do understand that a good set of rules are needed for tournament play. Any reasonable player will want to know whats black and whats white when its important, you have slaved over a 1500 point guard infantry army to pro paint the buckles on your regular guardsman's pants, then damn right you want to know exactly what that Leman Russ can and can't do. Being blindsided is a terrible thing when it becomes known as "HA I can beat your 15 dreadnoughts with this under subsection 2 of page 21!" and you curse yourself for not having read it... and you spent all that time doing the painting converting etc. I'd be the first one there screaming you cant be expecting him to play against 15 dreadnoughts... please wake up and smell the coffee your dreaming dude..but i would also respect the players and the converters and even the 8 year old kid who says "fight my marines man!" and he puts down a tactical squad which looked like they escaped the paint factory war on Goliath IV by running through the technicolour soup control zone... and cheerfully tell him good work man, but you dont glue the head on the guys outstretched arm, it looks way cooler if you leave it on his shoulders. But lets have a game anyway... who knows the kid might grow up and become a eavy metal painter for all I know, encourage the ankle biter!

But over the last 8 weeks of observing the new breed of gamer out there, the hobby has lost the "LET MY IMAGINATION BE MY LIMIT" in a lot of things. Its like viewing a tournament game every time friendly play is on at the local GW... In fact if anything that saddens me. I see players with rulez lawyering almost like they have a Phd in the rules set, but they seem to field awfully large always unpainted armies which would never see one conversion... let alone maybe a base color or two. The hobby should be about hey I converted this and did a cool paint job on it and I want him to be my standard bearer... he might have a sheeps head, he might be in a Terrax guard regiment but he is muto son of the schools commandant and nobody pisses him off as his uncle is rumored to be a member of the Lords of terra.... dum dum dah.... could it be done? maybe I dont fancy it, but if it turned up on a table opposite me I would smile and congratulate the guy on having an orginal concept and running with it. If he then said I got these home brew rulez which give him Void grenades that poop out his bum and blow anything within 30 inches away with a S10 hit and he has a BS of 9, then I might say hey its cool for him to be standard bearer, but lets not get out of control shall we? But if my best mate on a Saturday afternoon said lets play what you got on the board over there vs what I want to try out with this new conversion of a beastman lord I did with reasonable rules. I'd be happy too! the hobby seems to have lost this though at some point to a large degree. 

This isnt a rant at anything just observations from somebody who grew up with the hobby and has been a bit culture shocked at what they see today when they have returned. I am just encouraging you to explore any option that you want. I would happily build a chaos themed army as you have looked at Bile as a creator type. I think thats a noble concept... run with it. In fact if you really wanted to go nutz ZOMG... they are a remains of an Imperial Guard Beastman Army... they were just as legit 15 years ago as the guard on anti grav bikes with Squat medics and egg like sentinels leading the charge across the board.

At the end of the day, I say run with what your heart tells you and what you want to do.. Like most things in 40k, you can make anything really work. I am sure after 10,0000 odd years in a galaxy the size of Milky Way at some time at some place the forces of both Khorne and Slaanesh did work together albiet maybe once or twice... 

Again just my observations and my wish that the hobby embraced people again willinging to do what you started too.... but then go screw the damn book I will design this. After all not everything is for a tournament game. 

(Please note I don't wear a dressing gown and get up at 8am and scream get off my lawn you damn kids, I am not that old yet).

Peace. (And Cam.... respect what you wrote, appreciate that you must have a passion for the history of the game too and are probably well versed in the fluff better than I ever will be or was  my comments are toward what I see in general about the hobby and trying to get an idea to work, takes nothing away from what you have said or written. I respect anyone with a passion who actually does bother to read... ).


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## Talos (Aug 4, 2008)

Great post !! Your right if I like the idea i should just go for it

I have decided I am going for a Mutant army that comes from Deep in the Eye of Terror.
I know there are going to be alot of New guard armies so I am going to make my stand out. This army is going to be full of the darkest things in the eye that are vomited forth that the Eye opens.
The army is going to be a horde army with legions of mutanted warriors.
I am going to use some Non GW models to show some this chaotic nature.
So far I have come up with this:

HQ- Not sure yet I may use the bile model or something more Chaotic if I can find one. I will be using the Nork rules for a big mutant Body guard. Right now I am thinking of using the old Boneripper with a spawn head (the Khorne one)

Primaris Psyker- I will use this dark age model
http://www.arcaneminiatures.co.uk/images/urban-mammoth/13503.jpg

Medics in Command squads will use the Skarrd grafter 
http://www.gamers-quest.co.uk/acatalog/DAG3004.JPG

Ogryn squads- I was thinking of using Spawns (someone has to use them). The ripper guns will show them firing warpfire from there mouths.

Psyker Battle Squad- I will use Forgeworld Psykers and WFB Chaos sorcerers for this 

Inf Platoons - I will use mutants, Khorne will be Cadian plus Beastmen, Nurgle Imperial guard plus Zombies, Tzeentch cadain plus bit of the plastic lizardmen. Slaanesh I will use Cadian plus bits of Daemonettes 

Heavy weapons- I think I will use Greenstuff to try and warp the guns to the bodies of guardsmen 

Penal Legion- These guys are going to be fun, I think due to the rules either khorne or Slaanesh based mutants will be the best idea.

Rough Riders- I was thinking of using those beastmen units the centaur things. Are they metal or plastic ?

Elite troops will just be bigger versions of the inf men depending on which god they follow.


Now for the armoured part. This bit I am not sure on, I think I will just use standard tanks with lots of greenstuff.

The only part I have run out of ideas for are the sentinels. Not sure how to make them look mutated I could use those sisters of battle walkers but they cost a bit.


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## Alexious (Apr 13, 2009)

Wow... Thank you for your comment. 

Ideas for you to mull over and disregard as you like

1). Sentinels would be interesting as Tree type men or those wood elf tree guys from WHFB as the legs of the sentinel... paint them blood red like they are veins and arteries from a larger creature would look rather sickening...

2). Tanks.... I always wanted to see what a full on Nurgle infested slime filled tank would be like... imagine doing a chimera and dipping it in jelly or that its been on the floor of a sticky date pudding factory... I can think of more sexual connections of how you would do it for Slaanesh but thats not in tasteful context for a fourm.

3).Rough Riders... great idea! Love the lumbering idiot so powerful I could smash you to bits just by me charging at you... even if you wanted do some Talos like Dark Eldar weapon platform as it and have a commander riding it down the middle... Um Sir... there appears to be a semi naked rather attractive young man who recently shaved his chest with a large pointy lance riding a metal scorpion with a nasty stinger that looks like an arc welder wanting to have a word about your head being removed from your shoulders... shall I ask him in for tea?

4). Take a look at the Tomb kings stuff from WHFB for anything you want Tzeentchish... its Egyptian themed... Hmmm dead pristine warrior servant types that were left over from Magnus's great spell that made the others turn to dust.... but these guys were in Orbit so they just lost all their flesh...

5). You could do the orks heaps with Khorne just paint them anything rather than green. What if your creator.... made red orks? Oh dear genetic mutation screw up.... experiment I made orks that are for Slaanesh and decorate everything with flowers and prissy things... I think thats funny. My warboss has a tutu of nobz power armor cop that you snivelling storm trooper.

I would run with one or two themes so it doesnt look too ungodly... but that said make something as the centre the thing that screams hey I did it my damn way.


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