# Disillusionment with the Horus Heresy.



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Despite having previously made my thoughts clear in another thread:


Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Whilst i've consistently over the years defended the Heresy series in it's many and varied explorations of different plot angles, characters and heresy-lore. I am starting to sympathise with your viewpoint _D-A-C_. Don't get me wrong, I love the Heresy series, but my enthusiasm has significantly dulled over the last few months.
> 
> It has been 17 (+ several novellas/audio-books) novels since we were properly with the apparent pro/antagonist of the whole war: Horus. Whilst the Warmaster has made appearances/cameos in several novels since, I think a return to XVI Legion is long overdue. We havn't seen them at all really since Isstvan V (and that generally applies to most of the Traitor Legions as well) and we didn't even see that from their perspective. How did each Legion justify their betrayal? How did they become _Chaos_ Space Marines? How does Horus view Chaos and the aid the gods grant him? The only gllimpse of the XVI Legion post-Isstvan I believe was in the short story _Little Horus_ and in _Nemesis_, both of which failed to even begin to answer the aforementioned questions. That is the main thing getting on my nerves, I hope we don't just end up at the Siege of Terra with the Space Marines of the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus (and indeed the other Legions) having become _Chaos_ Space Marines without explanation or justification.
> 
> The opening trilogy (despite it's flaws) was so successful because it was driving the main plotline, as well as hosting numerous great characters (Loken first amongst them). Despite not having read any of the first three novels in years I could name off the top of my head most of the characters, a feat which I couldn't replicate for most other Heresy novels. I've loved some of the explorations of other plot-lines (_Legion_, _The First Heretic_ and the Prospero duology for example) and hated others (_Battle for the Abyss_ and _Nemesis_) and I understand they are required, but I just worry we are missing out on large parts of the central plot because of constant diversions. By all means tell the other tales and plots, they are essential. But try to do it without losing focus on the main plotline, something which I feel has been done over the last few novels.


I felt the need to create another thread for a more specific topic. Is anyone else becoming disillusioned with the path the Heresy series is taking, notably since the _Age of Darkness_ era began? By that, I mean the post-Isstvan events from _Age of Darkness_, _Nemesis_, _The Outcast Dead_, _Deliverance Lost_, _Know No Fear_, _The Primarchs_, _Fear to Tread_ and _Shadows of Treachery_.

For one, in terms of certain plot elements. Novels such as _Deliverance Lost_ and _The Outcast Dead_ have significantly altered the landscape of certain elements of the Heresy, quite often in a negative way in my opinion. We simply didn't seem to have this problem in the early years of the series. We've had other - admittedly much more minor - plot issues such as the Emperor walking around the Imperial Palace in _Nemesis_, where he should have been bound to the Golden Throne dealing with Magnus's breach of the webway. That particular point, when put to James Swallow, was simply fobbed off with a comment not dissimilar to: "Nah, the Emperor was able to walk around for a bit". Some decisions have seemed to have been met with more negative than positive opinions, such as Fulgrim's recovery of his body in _Reflection Crack'd_ despite the general praise that _Fulgrim_ and it's plot (in this sense in regards to his possession) received. We've also had particular chronological issues, most prominently illustrated by Magnus's warning in _The Outcast Dead_, and whilst some have moved to justify the issue it remains a spanner in the works for many fans. It would have been nice to hear off Graham concerning that issue actually, especially considering he is usually good at fan-interaction. EDIT: I'm not slating Graham at all here by the way. The series itself just seems to be so unorganised and well, messy. 

Other things which I am not a particular fan of is the over-use of certain characters. My thoughts on Loken's return are well documented on these forums (his return is probably the decision that I most disagree with in relation to the series) but there are also others. I also have an issue with how warp travel has been portrayed in a few of the novels, and the ease with which some characters seem to travel the galaxy during a time of chaos and warp storms. For example, Khârn travels from Isstvan to Ultramar (based on assumptions of the upcoming _Betrayer_) to Prospero, then back to link up with his Legion before the Siege of Terra. Huge swathes of the galaxy in a short space of time. Erebus seems to present everywhere at once, with Horus all the time yet also at Calth. Valdor is with the wolves at Prospero, but manages to make it back to Terra where as Russ doesn't. Sanguinius and the IX get to Ultramar before they head back to Terra (though this plot point is far from wrapped up yet). The VII Legion Retribution Fleet also may have managed to make it to Ultramar (depending on your interpretation of the ending of _Crimson Fist_) before returning to Terra (if they do indeed return to Terra). It may seem like a minor point, but it just adds to the other points to become disillusionment.

This also ties in with too many prominent/main characters surviving the series, something which - to be fair - AD-B has picked up on and has moved to rectify (bye-bye Argel Tal and Sevatar). But again, this just adds to the disillusionment. I am eagerly awaiting a return to Horus and his Legion (especially considering his cameos and appearances in recent novels have been lacklustre) as hopefully that will return a sense of direction and drive to the series. These issues, combined with a below-par few novels since the _Age of Darkness_ era began has what has caused this issue for me.

Don't get me wrong, I am not doubting any individual author's dedication or hardwork that is put into the series. I hope _Betrayer_ and _Angel Exterminatus_ (as the next two main novels) will put me back in my place, and restore some positive feelings for me. This has been more of a vent thread for me, and was just wondering if anyone else was on the same page, or if there are any other issues anyone wants to raise. Feel free to tell me if you think I am chatting shit as well.


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## demonictalkin56 (Jan 30, 2011)

Whilst I agree with your points regarding Outcast Dead and odd chronology, I do think that sometimes it doesn't really matter if the continuity isn't fully synced up. 
In terms of the big E walking round in Nemesis, i think the plot benefited from him being there rather than sticking him in the chair just for continuity's sake. So long as it isn't something totally game changing thats messed with, I would argue that the authors benefit from being able to have some leeway.

Hopefully that makes sense; not been sleeping well and am knackered lol

edit: also in terms of the progression of the series, i would love to see the Siege of Terra quicker, but I understand that it is better to go through in an exhaustive, chronological fashion so all the bases are covered


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

I also agree with you on most points. The plot has not really moved on since _Fulgrim_. While I understand the need to answer the demand for all the legions to get their own novel(we are still waiting on the Iron Warriors and White Scars, and the likes of the Imperial Fists, Night Lords and World Eaters have only really had cameo appearances so far.) I think the cash it's raking in is the biggest influence on the series at the moment. 

I'm sure at the start the BL guys never envisaged it having as many books as it has had, with possibly the same again to come, but they have to start moving the plot along. I think the big problem is that before they started the series we had a fair idea of the events at the beginning and the end of the Heresy, but there wasn't a lot of info of what went on in the years between. _Nemesis_ seems to be the only book so far set in the intervening years. The only events I can think of off the top of my head that have been mentioned are the destruction of Caliban and the SWs battle with the AL. If they write those books that leaves us with the eventual invasion of Terra, which will cover at least three books IMO.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

One of the problems comes from three of the legions already kicked out of the series. And then nonesensical additions like Promethean Sun - exactly what requires the attention of 3 Primarchs and their entire legion, and is able to survive for so long, Oh wait, Deus Ex Machina.

As for Graham Mcneil, my dislike of him and his writing is well documented. Sort of glad to see that the praise heaped on him is finally beginning to wash off and people see how poor a writer he actually is, considering the amount of stuff he writes; there are only a select few gems - Fulgrim, Thousand Sons, and the Ambassador Chronicles are the four that resonate with me as being good. Consider the atrocities of the UM, IW, The Outcast Dead, High Elves double, Sigmar trilogy, and you have one hell of a catalogue of terribly written unengaging books. It is a shame though that it is at the expense of such a quality series.

I STILL havent finished The outcast dead, the only boom to date I think in my life. Nemesis was terrible. Pigeon holed typeset characters, that were just essentially humans talking with one another. Banterous assassins, what the fuck?

It seems as if the authors are getting tired of writing; a problem that has become apparent in series like Gaunts Ghosts, to Sharpe. It becomes a cash cow, and unfortunately they are flogging the horse, and it is noticeably suffering, with the odd nice surprise - KNF among Deliverance Lost, Outcast Dead, Nemesis for example. 

As you say the story is now stale; actions of inconsequence, or trivialities expanded upon to become more important than they should be.

There are several large actions still to fight and expand upon; Olympia, AL vs WS & SW, Nocturne, "Nevermore-gate", Cypher/Luther, The immediate effect of the fall of mars, 40k landmark areas (Cadia/Armageddon/Maelstrom) and their affect, Xenos during the Heresy (They are either sideshow extermination to show power of the Legions - re Nephilim, Greenskins during FTT, or ultra powerful, re Promethean Sun), more stories involving the less oversubscribed chapters.

Ultramarines were avoided - not only for their overrepresenetation during 40k, but for their initial non inclusion during the Heresy Canon (They were later explained as being directed away from the fighting, to illustrate why they werent present in earlier editions). Hence when inevitable book came up, people groaned. And yet, alongside TFH, it is considered one of the finest latter books, if not among the whole series.

Reincluding the circumstances to Vulkans loss, the Dropsite massacre from the pov of the morlocks, the ultramarines rebuilding, the reasons for the WS non involvement from Ullanor to Nikaea to Terra.

Hopefully FW are in cahoots with BL, so we can get a full picture.


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## Doelago (Nov 29, 2009)

Half a year ago, I would probably have disagreed with several of the points you listed, but now I start feeling the same. The Age of Darkness should be covered, but it really dilutes the Heresy series in a way. There should be more about Horus and whatever the feth he was doing during these years. I cant honestly care less if Omegon decides to go and crash a asteroid into a sun. That could basically be any "normal" 40k story, was it not for the characters. What I enjoyed most of the series was the way in which the characters and the setting was portrayed, which they did really well at the beginning, and in some later novels, but which is totally absent in some imo. 

Some characters also seem to be bloody everywhere at once. Jesus fuck, Erebus must have some galaxy wide teleportation grid at his disposal, because he is fucking everywhere at once. He is hanging out with Horus, he is at Calth, he is there, and he is here. And Loken... No, no! Why could they not let him die? For me that ruined some of the tragedy that was Istvaan III.

I could probably rant on for quite some time here, but cant be arsed to do so. But really, the series needs to bring Horus back. Right now the some of the more recent works have felt like the standard Space Marine killing Space Marine for the sake of killing Space Marine _just because they were there_ plots that we get in the normal 40k setting, although with the addition of random Primarch doing random stuff on random rock.


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## NiceGuyEddy (Mar 6, 2010)

You can't please everyone on this. When I first heard of the Heresy series all those years ago I expected ten books max and to be honest I felt, and still feel, that would have been plenty. 

At its core the Collected Visions pretty much covered the Heresy perfectly so I don’t see why authors need to diverge too much from that, obviously a few extra bits and pieces wouldn’t go astray to freshen things up though. With that in mind however ultimately we all know exactly how this story plays out and are still reading anyway so throwing in twists and red herrings just for the sake of a few extra books completely erodes what for me was already a fantastic story. 

People want more Heresy books which is fine, I do too but it looks like we are going to get MUCH more Heresy books and unfortunately the more books you write the harder it becomes to coherently tie them together especially when you use multiple authors.

I said on this forum a while back they need to just wrap up the Heresy in the next five or six books and if someone then wants to write some bullshit limited edition novella on what Perturabo ate for breakfast fine let them, I’m sure someone will pay for it. I just feel that the longer the series gets dragged out the more plot holes and inconsistencies are likely to spring up in the Siege of Terra which they need to absolutely nail. It would be unforgivable for GW to fuck the SoT up because they wore out their writers on side quests and back story which left them with far too many lose ends to tie.


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Despite having previously made my thoughts clear in another thread:
> 
> 
> I felt the need to create another thread for a more specific topic. Is anyone else becoming disillusioned with the path the Heresy series is taking, notably since the _Age of Darkness_ era began? By that, I mean the post-Isstvan events from _Age of Darkness_, _Nemesis_, _The Outcast Dead_, _Deliverance Lost_, _Know No Fear_, _The Primarchs_, _Fear to Tread_ and _Shadows of Treachery_.
> ...


Spoilers bellow so please don't read unless up to date with series. 

As per usual you make a very good, balanced and reasoned argument. I don't agree with everything however (for example I'm very glad Loken has returned and I think his eventful fate will be even more tragic, Horus on the ship in front of the Emperor perhaps. Anyway I digress!)

I do want the series to continue for a very long time but I'm also annoyed that events which I think should be covered, such as why the Death Guard and Iron Warriors turned etc have not. Also why in 2006 is a cliff-hanger left regarding Rylonor and six/seven years later we have no answers! This does not increase tension, its just annoying. 

Some of the recent stuff has been extremely bad as well as pointless (Promethean Sun anybody?). I thought the Primarch's collection was three quarters dreadful, Deliverance Lost very poor (retcon pointless and badly handled) and I hated the Outcast Dead because of the continuity issue. The continuing silence around this just makes it even worse. I just do not understand why they have done this and not offered any explanation. I know a lot of people are ok with just shrugging it off and letting it pass but I also know of a lot of people who are just pissed off and annoyed. I know of no one who thinks it added to the story or setting and was handled well. Why on earth was this allowed to pass editing? 

Agree that far too many characters on the traitor side are surviving, I've even heard that after his pathetic death in the Primarchs bloody Eidolon is returning (just a rumour though). If Black Library are so keen on retcons then why not kill some of these guys off. I think people would love it! It would add a bit of tension as well! 

I don't think its all downhill though. I loved both No Know Fear and Fear to Tread although neither are a my favourite of the series. Anything by Aaron is fantastic and I am looking forward to Prince of Crows, Betrayer and Nightfall. I think Chris Wright is a great talent and a super addition to the series, very much looking forward to his White Scars and Abnett on the whole continues to be strong. 

Also looking forward to hearing about Captain Varren someone I wanted to know about ever since I first heard of him many many years ago! It might even include something about Rylonor! (Garro, sword of truth)


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

I'll be brief. Rather than weighing in with opinion, I just want to correct a few things.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> We've had other - admittedly much more minor - plot issues such as the Emperor walking around the Imperial Palace in _Nemesis_, where he should have been bound to the Golden Throne dealing with Magnus's breach of the webway.


That's not entirely true, dude. That's a popular assumption, yes. There's artwork of it, but there's also artwork of the Emperor doing other stuff at the time. You're taking fanon as canon, there. Who's to say the Emperor is on the Golden Throne, doing that? He might be there at a certain point, when the invasion reaches its apex and all is about to be lost. Not for the_ seven years beforehand._ He might be in the Webway itself with his Custodians and Sisters of Silence and Titan Legions and Imperial Army hordes, actually getting stuck into the fighting.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Some decisions have seemed to have been met with more negative than positive opinions, such as Fulgrim's recovery of his body in _Reflection Crack'd_ despite the general praise that _Fulgrim_ and it's plot (in this sense in regards to his possession) received.


I've seen many, many more complaints that Fulgrim was possessed at all. So where's the line drawn? Who's right? Who's anecdotal evidence reflects reality? You can't judge something like that on a few opinions.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> For example, Khârn travels from Isstvan to Ultramar (based on assumptions of the upcoming _Betrayer_) to Prospero, then back to link up with his Legion before the Siege of Terra. Huge swathes of the galaxy in a short space of time.


In... six years? How is that a short space of time?

D'you see what I mean? A lot of this is subjective assumption, taken as crystallised fact.

Kharn's "issues" with time and space are an entirely different subject, and one I loathe. But the example you used is the one thing that makes sense. After Ultramar, he has six entire years to get back to Terra, along with the World Eaters.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Feel free to tell me if you think I am chatting shit as well.


Not at all. But you're going on a general vibe and opinion (which is fine) and taking it a step too far, I think. A lot of those examples aren't mistakes, or fly in the face of popular feedback. 





Khorne's Fist said:


> I also agree with you on most points. The plot has not really moved on since _Fulgrim_.


But this, I genuinely don't understand. It's dead wrong. Since _Fulgrim_, we've moved on two years. The Dark Angels and Night Lords have fought in Thramas for two years, and now that's over. Calth is a full year after the events of Fulgrim. We've seen the Blood Angels enter the Heresy at Signus Prime, about a year after Isstvan. We've seen the first stirrings of Guilliman establishing a Second Imperium, 1-2 years after Isstvan.

I can understand "The series is slow" when some people want to get to Terra at the cost of exploring the galactic civil war, or when viewed in the light of the very brief older lore, but I can't understand "The series hasn't moved on" because that's patently untrue.



Khorne's Fist said:


> I think the cash it's raking in is the biggest influence on the series at the moment.


Okay. And I can tell you, as I've said a few times before, that's bullshit. Not once does money even enter into it. No one has such pathetic integrity that they rub their hands together and try to milk anyone for money. You know, the writers like 40K, too. I like it enough to devote my career to it. Maybe we just want to flesh out the galactic civil war in a lot more detail than "...and then seven years of war happened, and now here's Terra."


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> That's not entirely true, dude. That's a popular assumption, yes. There's artwork of it, but there's also artwork of the Emperor doing other stuff at the time. You're taking fanon as canon, there. Who's to say the Emperor is on the Golden Throne, doing that? He might be there at a certain point, when the invasion reaches its apex and all is about to be lost. Not for the_ seven years beforehand._ He might be in the Webway itself with his Custodians and Sisters of Silence and Titan Legions and Imperial Army hordes, actually getting stuck into the fighting.


To expand on this one point a bit.

Yes the God-Emperor must stay on the Golden Throne at all times. But this is the Emperor pre-corpse we are talking about. Who is to say he wasn't powerful enough when he was alive to leave the Throne for periods of time, perhaps even astral projecting himself across the Palace.


LotN


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## dickie bell (Jul 8, 2012)

being a relative newcomer to the heresy i am currently up to date with all the books , i sort of agree that sometimes after a barnstormer of a book you get one that pretty much slams on the brakes plot wise , my suggestion would be to have the horus heresy kept to the actions of horus and his war against the emperor and a side line of books under a title like legends of the heresy which would deal with all the side stories .


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I'll be brief. Rather than weighing in with opinion, I just want to correct a few things.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All good points Aaron and well put as always. 

I hope that all the moaning does not put you and the other authors off. I know we can be overly harsh and I know a vast amount of work goes into each novel. On the whole I love the series. I suppose that's one of the reasons I get annoyed if I read something which I perceive to be poor. I know different people like different things and its not possible to please everybody all the time! 

I'd also like to sincerely thank you for the efforts you put into your fantastic work, it is genuinely a great pleasure to read and long may it continue. Any fan of 40k is lucky to have you involved. I hope GW are paying you a fortune! 

The only point I'd make about the issues you raise (and I know this is opinion so you cannot comment) is that personally I didn't mind if Fulgrim came back. In fact I was hoping he did in a way. I loved the end of Fulgrim, I loved the way he regretted what he had done and how he looked upon his fallen comrades in despair. I thought it would make a fascinating story if he did regain his body, not only how he would achieve it but also why he would yet again turn from the Emperor after his realisation of the situation at the end of Fulgrim. 

For me Refection Cracked provided none of this at all. Just I'm back because I wanted to be, I'm a total bastard again and I ain't telling you why. That just didn't do it for me and I felt it was a missed opportunity.


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

mal310 said:


> The only point I'd make about the issues you raise (and I know this is opinion so you cannot comment) is that personally I didn't mind if Fulgrim came back. In fact I was hoping he did in a way. I loved the end of Fulgrim, I loved the way he regretted what he had done and how he looked upon his fallen comrades in despair. I thought it would make a fascinating story if he did regain his body, not only how he would achieve it but also why he would yet again turn from the Emperor after his realisation of the situation at the end of Fulgrim.
> 
> For me Refection Cracked provided none of this at all. Just I'm back because I wanted to be, I'm a total bastard again and I ain't telling you why. That just didn't do it for me and I felt it was a missed opportunity.


I was disappointed that Fulgrim returned but not at the writers but at Fulgrim for allowing that decadent Daemon to corrupt him. I had thought more of him and he failed my expectations, becoming the freak that we'll see more of in _Angel Exterminatus_.


LotN


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## Khorne's Fist (Jul 18, 2008)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Maybe we just want to flesh out the galactic civil war in a lot more detail than "...and then seven years of war happened, and now here's Terra."


I can understand wanting to flesh out the events of the Heresy, but the fact is since the first HH novel came out 6 years ago, by your reckoning the timeline has only moved on 2 years. Does that mean it's gonna take us 15 more real time years to get through the last 5 years of the Heresy? 

There is a very real chance of reader burnout occuring, as evidenced by the opinions in this thread, especially with titles like _Nemesis, BftA, Promethean Sun _and _The Outcast Dead_ letting down the series. I stopped buying the _Space Marine Battles_ books for this reason, there are too few good titles to carry the series.


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## Hachiko (Jan 26, 2011)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Okay. And I can tell you, as I've said a few times before, that's bullshit. Not once does money even enter into it. No one has such pathetic integrity that they rub their hands together and try to milk anyone for money. You know, the writers like 40K, too. I like it enough to devote my career to it. Maybe we just want to flesh out the galactic civil war in a lot more detail than "...and then seven years of war happened, and now here's Terra."


I agree with most of your points but disagree somewhat here. I don't think that anyone was implying that the HH is a cash grab on the part of the _authors_. But let's be frank, GW/BL is a business, and a publicly traded one at that, and heads would roll somewhere if the most profitable branch of the publishing arm wasn't exploited to the fullest.
It's great that you like 30K and 40K enough to devote your entire career to it. You are also regarded as a talented writer. But I seriously doubt that a writer who pretty much sucked balls would be given a chance to write a HH book simply because he or she loved the canon so much. 
I don't mean to sound negative, but that's how it is. I've worked for firms that deal in branded merchandise. There are designers, marketers, etc. that are psyched to work to promote that brand, to be sure, but shimmy up that old totem pole and there's a whole bunch of hands rubbing.


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## Matcap (Aug 23, 2012)

Khorne's Fist said:


> I can understand wanting to flesh out the events of the Heresy, but the fact is since the first HH novel came out 6 years ago, by your reckoning the timeline has only moved on 2 years. Does that mean it's gonna take us 15 more real time years to get through the last 5 years of the Heresy?
> 
> There is a very real chance of reader burnout occuring, as evidenced by the opinions in this thread, especially with titles like _Nemesis, BftA, Promethean Sun _and _The Outcast Dead_ letting down the series. I stopped buying the _Space Marine Battles_ books for this reason, there are too few good titles to carry the series.


Just wanted to point out that not everyone thinks the same books are bad. For example; although not in my top 10, Nemesis and The Outcast Dead I both enjoyed for their rather unique perspectives on the HH.

Problem is here that you can't please everyone and with a series and setting this big, "letting down the series" is a rather subjective thing, especially when dealing with the cornerstone event of a hobby that a lot of people are heavily invested in. People are going to be let down by some of the books, just because the amount of events, characters and different writers. 

I think reader burnout is something entirely in ones own hands: if you expect every single one of the series to be a masterpiece tailored to your tastes, you will be disapointed sometimes.


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## Vaz (Mar 19, 2008)

There are masterpieces, and then there are books which the other authors within a team are loath to reference.

Stories like BftA, and from what Ive read, The Outcast Dead have "no place" within the 30k depository. Afaik, there are no plot swinging arcs or moments which people say 'you must read' - at which point you wonder exactly what role they have to play within the Heresy.

What would have happened if the Abyss hadnt been created/"stolen"? Nothing. The UM were still kicked out the Heresy thanks to Kor Phaerons efforts.

What happened within ToD? I dont remember any reference in any books so far.

Hence, they have nothing to add to the storyline aside from being filler fluff - the type which you see in a codex timeline that in 998m37 the UM destroyed a race of previously unheard of xenos. And yet we have 300 pages, 12 hours reading time on essentially boring nothingness. It has the 30k HH label slapped on to generate sales, comparatively noone would buy BftA or tOD (speculatively) without that badge, hence, sales generator, for essentially very little effort. With a bit of tinkering, all the SMB books could be placed in the HH series, altering the familiar figures to be more 30k with "minor"work, and theyd generate sales simply for being a HH book.

Its the difference between buying a CD because the musics good and buying a cd because of the bands previous work, blindly, slavishly. If the music is not up to the quality of prior releases, they lose fans, get accused of selling out and relying on past sales to generate future support, to an extent where the sheer
scale and name of the band will generate sales.

While yes, getting on the NYT best seller is to be commended, it does feel like quality is dropping overall since, with books and easy to produce novellas being churned out like slugs from an assault cannon.

How many more limited edition/exclusive release novella can we expect? For what reason is that? For what reason are Anthologies producing only 2 new stories and charging for 5(?) old ones. Why are their audio exclusives? Its not as though the stories/prose are not scripted first. Why are prose/transcripts of said stories released with aforementioned anthologies containing only 2 new stories (of which one is the prose)?

While I dont know or pretend to know the practises inside the BL publishing or sales mechanics, it is fairly apparent that such attitudes to the customer are to generate only one thing, and if by extending the real time releases by a further year or four to advance the plot by a year or less (often releasing simultaneous events), you generate extra sales overall.

As said there are numerous theatres which are showcased within the Collected Visions book, and hinted at, so why include seemingly non-referrables like tOD or BftA?

Also while it might not stylistically or internally affect the plot line, it does offend the customers and end users that they essentially pay for crap. Particularly for ebook readers like myself. I cannot get a refund. I cannot sell it on to make back my money. its not like a model elsewhere in the hobby you avoid or remodel to your liking, you do not get to see the whole product prior to purchase.

Also, more pointedly, to ADB, you don't want other authors riding high, making money off your work simply by association of the label? All respect in the world to Ben Counter, hes probably a nice guy, but what gives him the right to make his money on a book like BftA in a series like HH which got its name from pieces like your own TFH, Abnetts, KNF, and Fulgrim/Thousand Sons, which are not only regarded as being among the best in HH, but among people who rate it as highly as the first Sharpe novels, hornblowers, and other historical fiction heroes (in which these novels are essentially written in the style of).

Conversely, although it might be egotistical, would it not get annoying to go a long way to generating that massively popular opinion of the series only to have someone with their inane scribblings 'ruin' it? Slight exaggeration but i cant imagine monet being too happy about someone scribbling over his paintings with a crayon.


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## the.alleycat.uk (Jun 11, 2009)

With the Heresy series there will always be that thing of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' [pun unintended but then giggled at.]

If you spend time fleshing out the Imperium and what's happening during the Heresy.... you're going too slow.

If you sprint to Terra... you never explained this or wrote about these guys.

So i think poeple need to be a little more balanced in how they view things.

That said:
My main gripe is that at this stage, i would have hoped that there would have been a novel to 'kick off' each legion. To give an idea of their character, motives and attitudes. To give a glimpse of their primarchs and how they are dealin with the change in the imperium, the emergence of librarians and then the Heresy itself.

The first three books did an ok job of setting up the heresy, the disillusionment of these living weapons as the beurocracy of the new imperium begins to creep in [the analogy to the reasons for Lucifer's fall in Paradise lost]

And there have been some exceptionally good novels along these lines...

But then there are novels that appear to be being build on foundations that haven't actually be laid yet. 

So my approach at this stage is to cherry pick the HH novels that I read. Skipping ones that to me seem tangental to the main story until I'm able to read the books that I feel should be underlying this whole epic.

Or sutin ;p


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

Hachiko said:


> But let's be frank, GW/BL is a business, and a publicly traded one at that, and heads would roll somewhere if the most profitable branch of the publishing arm wasn't exploited to the fullest.


Not really. We choose when to end it. We were told there was supposed to be a seven-year period of unrestrained war, showing "the Calths and Signus Primes no one heard about" in the brief, brief overview we've had of the Heresy in all the old lore, but the authors are indeed the ones who choose when this ends.

If we tried to end it here, yes, the editors would say "Um, you've missed out a load of Legions and half a dozen years of war - could you finish what you started, please..." but the fact still remains it's very much in the authors' hands. There's no heavy hands from On High demanding X, Y and Z.



Hachiko said:


> I don't mean to sound negative, but that's how it is.


If it was like that, I'd have said it was. I don't waste my time lying.

EDIT: Sounds snarky. Totally not meant to.


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## Wusword77 (Aug 11, 2008)

Vaz said:


> Also, more pointedly, to ADB, you don't want other authors riding high, making money off your work simply by association of the label? All respect in the world to Ben Counter, hes probably a nice guy, but what gives him the right to make his money on a book like BftA in a series like HH which got its name from pieces like your own TFH, Abnetts, KNF, and Fulgrim/Thousand Sons, which are not only regarded as being among the best in HH, but among people who rate it as highly as the first Sharpe novels, hornblowers, and other historical fiction heroes (in which these novels are essentially written in the style of).


Considering how Counter wrote the 3rd book in the series itself, I'd say he's one of the 3 authors who GAVE the series a name.

He also didn't rely on TFH, KNF, or Thousand Suns to sell BftA as that book came out LONG before those titles. He also hasn't had another title in this series since putting out BftA, so he most CERTAINLY NOT been relying on them to sell his novels.

To the main topic, I'm of similar opinion to the.alleycat.uk, I cherry pick my book in the HH.


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## VulkansNodosaurus (Dec 3, 2010)

I don't think the Heresy has been getting worse recently, no. The worst-reviewed three novels in the Heresy so far have been Descent of Angels, Battle for the Abyss, and The Outcast Dead- and two of those three were in the first half of the Heresy. Know No Fear was very well-received and Fear to Tread relatively well-received.

As for expanding the series, well, some people like it and some don't. The HH is moving very, very slowly. It's going to take another 5-12 years to wrap up. On the other hand, at 3+ novels per year, there'll be no shortage of reading material (and the structure of the series is such that you don't have to read every book to get the point- there are a few general plot threads, but it isn't a series in the sense of, say, Harry Potter, so you can always skip a book that looks bad).

And SMB isn't a series at all- the novels have nothing to do with each other, making it an entirely inappropriate comparison.


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

Black library is trying to milk the heresy for all it's worth and releasing book after book. I think the heresy could of been covered in 10 or 12 books and any other story could of been flesh out later. 

Warhammer 40 k and 30 k has allot of stories to be told..a part of me kind of wants the heresy series to be over with so they can tell other stories. 

If people wants to read up on primarch . Why not write a story about how they develop on their adopted homeworld after chaos scatter them through out the universe. Or even the Emperor . Have a time line history book written about who the heck he really is prior to the the crusade. 

Heck a book about the crusade could be interesting or even gasp how some of the primarch got lost post heresy. 

lots of story to be told but I think black library is going at this pace for money issue and telling stories that are not too relevant but because it has Horus Heresy on it ...some people will buy it just for the sake of the series. 

The problem is that sometimes they can lose fans this way...


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

kwak76 said:


> lots of story to be told but I think black library is going at this pace for money issue and telling stories that are not too relevant but because it has Horus Heresy on it ...some people will buy it just for the sake of the series.


So I'm lying?


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## kwak76 (Nov 29, 2010)

Dead.Blue.Clown,

My bad if my post seems out of bound. I was under the impression that the warhammer were game work shop intellectual property and they pretty much told the author what to do. 

If the authors does have complete control and are setting the pace is it creative direction that maybe is causing some of different stories that are coming out?


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

kwak76 said:


> My bad if my post seems out of bound.


Naw, it doesn't, really. I'm only semi-serious when I asked that above; If I was offended or annoyed, I'd either not post at all or embark on a crusade of righteous swearing. 



kwak76 said:


> If the authors does have complete control and are setting the pace is it creative direction that maybe is causing some of different stories that are coming out?


Tough call. Depends what you mean - everyone has a bunch of stories they want to tell, I guess. 

Like I said, it's not complete control. If we suddenly decided to end the Heresy, the editors would be a little furious that we'd set all these plates spinning and suddenly decided to abandon it while half-finished. 

But every meeting, we're choosing what books to write. We each bring ideas and discuss them (except for me; I hate discussing half-formed ideas).


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## Good Minton (Sep 1, 2010)

Opinions eh? Everyone is entitled to them and get right on ones tits when expressing them! 

Well done to ADB and CotE for putting well structured points across. 

I like the Heresy personally and hope it continues for a good time to come. However, like CotE, I would like to spend some quality time with main protagonist in the near future.......too much to ask?...........


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Thanks for getting involved Aaron, it is always appreciated to see how closely you interact with the fanbase.  As I said though, this is more of a vent thread for me and I was just wondering how many others were on the same page. For me, the series has lost a significant amount of it's direction, momentum and excitement. With the plot points I brought up I was mainly trying to justify my disillusion, when truthfully it is something much more complex that is hard to pin down. I'm still snapping up everything that is produced within the series, hoping that my enthusiasm returns, but as of now (and for a while now) that enthusiasm has been lacking. However these may just be the ramblings of a lone fan!



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I've seen many, many more complaints that Fulgrim was possessed at all. So where's the line drawn? Who's right? Who's anecdotal evidence reflects reality? You can't judge something like that on a few opinions.


No, that's true, you can't. But again, I was just grasping at straws and trying to reflect something which seems to be popular opinion.



Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> But this, I genuinely don't understand. It's dead wrong. Since _Fulgrim_, we've moved on two years. The Dark Angels and Night Lords have fought in Thramas for two years, and now that's over. Calth is a full year after the events of Fulgrim. We've seen the Blood Angels enter the Heresy at Signus Prime, about a year after Isstvan. We've seen the first stirrings of Guilliman establishing a Second Imperium, 1-2 years after Isstvan.
> 
> I can understand "The series is slow" when some people want to get to Terra at the cost of exploring the galactic civil war, or when viewed in the light of the very brief older lore, but I can't understand "The series hasn't moved on" because that's patently untrue.


I agree with you. We have moved on since Isstvan, although we do seem to be taking steps back towards it all the time, and only advancing very, very slowly. As I said in my opening post:


Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Whilst i've consistently over the years defended the Heresy series in it's many and varied explorations of different plot angles, characters and heresy-lore. I am starting to sympathise with your viewpoint D-A-C. Don't get me wrong, I love the Heresy series, but my enthusiasm has significantly dulled over the last few months.
> 
> It has been 20 (+ numerous novellas/short stories/audio-books) novels since we were properly with the apparent pro/antagonist of the whole war: Horus.


Has anyone actually expressed an interest in returning to what Horus was doing during the Age of Darkness? I'm not fishing for gory details from the Heresy meetings, I'm just wondering if anything is potentially on the cards. Has it not been discussed with people too busy taking on different Legions and plots? Or should we expect to next be focussed on Horus during the Siege itself? 

I'm not exactly in an omnipresent position where I can talk objectively, but one example where fans seem to consistently become disillusioned is with the limited edition titles. Despite these titles not being integral to the overall Heresy plot, avid fans (like myself) will buy them (even with their very expensive price tag) because I enjoy the series in general, don't want to miss out on anything, and want a complete collection once the dust has settled. But then when we're fed the complete and utter shit that _Promethean Sun_ was for example (I won't ask you to comment on your colleague's work) its hard not to be disappointed. I know you've expressed your thoughts on the limited editions in other threads which I generally agree with, but it does seem to be an issue for many people. Similarly if all the subplots and tangents were presented to us in a manner on par with the likes of _Legion_, _The First Heretic_ and the _Prospero Duology_ it would be great. But when we are fed stuff like _Battle for the Abyss_, _Promethean Sun_, _Feat of Iron_, _Descent of Angels_ and to lesser extents _Nemesis_, _The Outcast Dead_ and _Deliverance Lost_ it can take a conscious effort to not jump on the 'we're moving too slowly, we're exploring too many pointless plots, and novel X was a pile of horseshit' bandwagon. I'm not one who wants to rush headlong to the Siege of Terra, but I just feel that the series has lost a sense of direction and excitement, and it seems as if I am not the only one.

We have so many different plot lines open - most novels seem to end with some manner of cliffhanger - that many are simply forgotten about before they are resolved (in my case anyway). With short stories and novellas opening new plot routes all the times, it does seem to come across as a bit messy. You can tell me to bugger off and mind my own business if you want, but do you, as part of the team, have any qualms with how the series is progressing or how it has been managed in the past?



the.alleycat.uk said:


> With the Heresy series there will always be that thing of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'


That is true, and I know Aaron has expressed such feelings himself before. I know it's not easy dealing with the fanbase Aaron (especially on forums), so hats off to you once again for daring to venture into the shadowy depths of forums such as these.

@LotN: I would also be interested to hear your opinion of this matter. You seem to consistently review all Heresy novels in a positive manner - I don't believe I have seen a negative review from you yet - so how do you feel in regards to the direction the series is taking? Do you have any qualms?


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## Lord of the Night (Nov 18, 2009)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> @LotN: I would also be interested to hear your opinion of this matter. You seem to consistently review all Heresy novels in a positive manner - I don't believe I have seen a negative review from you yet - so how do you feel in regards to the direction the series is taking? Do you have any qualms?


Well in regards to negative reviews I would point out that I have only been reviewing the HH since _A Thousand Sons_ was released, so not a lot of bad options really. However I will admit that after some thought I would not rank _Prospero Burns_ as highly as I once did and I haven't read _The Outcast Dead_ yet so I can't comment on it.

Personally I agree with Aaron on the scope of the Heresy. This was a galactic civil war, and not like the Star Wars version with isolated battles here and there. Everybody was fighting everybody. Nothing was untouched by the Heresy and the scale of that lends itself to an epic series. There is so much that we don't know about the Heresy that we will begin to find out in the course of this series, I think that the reason some people feel the story doesn't feel like its moving along at times is because its moving into uncharted territory, we have no idea where it going until it emerges from the dark tunnel and into the known territory of the Siege of Terra.

As for the time scope I do agree that 10 years is a good deal of time. Plenty of time for Kharn to get to Ultramar and then onto Prospero and then onto Terra. Warp travel takes a while but not long enough that its unfeasible for him to get that far. Plus remember Chaos is affecting the Warp, Kharn's journies might only take a week or two if Chaos really wants him to get where he's going. It may seem like the characters are everywhere but there is a lot of time to work in and it's perfectly understandable that they could be in these places and still be there in time for that next event.

As for money making, no. If the HH was about money they'd be marketing buttons, action figures of Loken and the others, cartoons and all the other stuff that franchises churn out. The Heresy series is a long running series of books, ones that you don't even have to buy all of them in order to understand. Can you understand the Heresy without reading _Nemesis_ or _Battle for the Abyss_, yes you can. I've never felt like the length of the series is about making money, because the authors are not stretching out the Heresy beyond what it's capable of producing, the 10 year gap is ample material for new stories and all the Signus's and Calth's that we didn't know happened.

I have never been anything less than confident in the direction the Heresy is taking and I look forward to every book. Particularly [|I]Betrayer[/I], a bro-mance between Argel Tal and Kharn is just so absurd that its awesome. A blood-maddened Berzerker and a nihilistic possessed marine... as best friends? :laugh:


LotN


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

*Heresy need a kick in the ass*

Sorry cant control myself after reading 3 pages of this 'conversation'. Its all very easy to explain. On the Aaron example. Just chain every writer until they will write really good stories like Prince of Crows:grin:. This novella is so good and giving more to the Heresy than Deliverence Lost, Nemesis (strangely i enjoyed it) and Battle for the Abyss :hang1: combined.
I bought every HH book to date - did i enjoyed all of them? Definitely not. First 3 books, Legion, First Heretic, Eisenshtein and TTS - this ones were good. Everything else ..... PARTLY - BECAUSE THE ONES, WHICH I ENJOYED WERE MOVING THE MAIN PLOT. I really hope that White Scars novel or novella (which is incoming on this September 21st) would be a plot moving story with normal battle (Its begins in the void-when at the skies and after that on the ground) and not some ..... about WS librarians crying aloud about their powers all the book. I really hope that Wright after awesome Battle for the Fang would od them justice. 

And i agree with everyone that the main storyline for Heresy must be moving quicker and all sideplots must be shown in anthologies books like Age of Darkness and etc. 

In the meantime i really hope that Aaron would think of something for Betrayer, because 2 Primarchs vs Ultramarines sounds like a big overkill, and in this case we will not worry for the bad guys. After all 2 Primarchs - its laughable. 

And now to the case of bad guys - i really don't know how to give my thanks to Aaron, who at least will kill some really enjoyable bad guys :grin: My concerns with Heresy from the beginning was that every fucking evil Primarch except Horus - survive the Heresy. Look at them in 40k - they are passive. Magnus, Angron and Alpharius - are only 3 who done something. Make some adjustments to lore. Kill some evil primarch in the Heresy. Thats would be surprisingly good and new. And it would be awesome. I sincerely hope that Aaron would kill Lorgar :grin: Fuck the lore :grin:


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

And as a footnote - DO not touch Gaunt Ghosts - its SACRED! iTS A CYCLE OF A LIFETIME. Its growing up with us! Just look at Ghosts in the first 3 books and look at the last 2! Its like timeslot from 16-18 years old to a fully grown 30-35 years old man :biggrin:


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Black Library is a business. The goal of a business is to maximise profit. BL authours are artists, but they're also employees/independent contractors who earn money from the sale of their novels. 

Varying authours have varying degrees of artistic integrity and monetary greed. 

If the HH authours are indeed "dragging out" the HH series simply for the sake of good story-telling, then BL is fortunate enough to have no need for coercing the HH team into churning out more books. As for the suggestion that BL business management (read "non-authours") would have no hand in directing the development of the HH series, I am quite skeptical. 

I'll give Aaron the benefit of the doubt, though my inner cynic tells me that Aaron is either a good-hearted but rather naive fellow or a de factor PR spokesperson.


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## Paceyjg (May 12, 2011)

I have a rather different take on it all simply due to what I expect from the books, let me explain.

I stumbled on 40K rather late if life (in my 20's) by reading William Kings Space Wolves books. Since then I have gone on to amass quite a collection. I fell in love with the dark and dismal universe of the future without knowing much of anything about the actual timeline and events that led to the 41st millennium (hope I got that right :grin 

So for me each HH book (and I look forward to everyone that comes out) is simply about that story. 

I loved Fulgrim for example but also enjoyed Nemesis as I can read the books without the critical eye that you "purists" seem to share. 

The books I tend not to enjoy are the ones containing the short stories, it simply seems a waste when any decent author has enough material there to write a full novel.

One last thing - where can I read about the events of the HH other than the books? I have the Collected Visions but is it a case that most of the knowledge is found in the gaming manuals of the Gamesworkshop?


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## Hachiko (Jan 26, 2011)

MontytheMighty said:


> Black Library is a business. The goal of a business is to maximise profit. BL authours are artists, but they're also employees/independent contractors who earn money from the sale of their novels.
> 
> Varying authours have varying degrees of artistic integrity and monetary greed.
> 
> ...


This is exactly the point I was trying to make. Games Workshop is doing fairly well for a small company serving a niche market. Mid-2012 figures come in at a profit of £15.6m. Now, I can't find the portion of this revenue generated by the Black Library division withing the income summary, and even then we'd need a sales report to see how profitable the HH series is vs. other segments. 
I get the whole bit that the authors are choosing the stories and chapters they want to flesh out. Are they also pushing the different formats as well, the short stories (maybe) and the audio dramas? Do the authors decide what books get a hardcover release? Do the authors say, "Hey, GW has a boffo event coming up, so let's slap together a HH novella to get a limited run and a $50 price tag?" I doubt it. I'm guessing that's corporate talking.
Now, there is the basic business philosophy. Of course a business has an obligation to be profitable. So we really can't fault them for continuing with a successful model. So that leads to the next question, is the quality of the series suffering?
I'd say not. I haven't read all the books yet, but I've seen a lot of the feedback. As many people that bitch about the new books, many also complain about False Gods or Galaxy in Flames. So yeah, perspective, subjective, the whole lot. I don't think the BL has any 'untalented' authors, just ones that reach a broader audience than others, and those that have a better grasp of canon than others. But as for the actual quality of the books, it's hard to go by 30 Amazon reviews or 50 forum posts against sales of 300,000. The books keep selling.
Now, my speculation as to those that feel the weariness with the series. It might be a case of 'are we there yet?', that is true. Everyone knows already hoe Horus' story will end. I had mentioned in a post a while back that it might be a good idea to keep the HH to the advancement of Horus' treachery alone, and then release a series of 30K books on the side, to do all that other fleshing-out. People would know it was technically Horus-era from that timeline, but wouldn't feel cheated or that the story was cheapened by diverting from the 'main course'. Of course one could counter that 'every story is part of the main course'. To each their own, only time and sales will tell.


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## Dead.Blue.Clown (Nov 27, 2009)

MontytheMighty said:


> If the HH authours are indeed "dragging out" the HH series simply for the sake of good story-telling, then BL is fortunate enough to have no need for coercing the HH team into churning out more books. As for the suggestion that BL business management (read "non-authours") would have no hand in directing the development of the HH series, I am quite skeptical.


I've been to almost every Horus Heresy meeting for the last 3 years. Not once has anyone but an author mentioned when the series would end, or the progression, except when the line editor said, for the sake of the readership, editorial wanted the books to start dealing with events chronologically rather than jumping around in time. That necessitated a scheduling change, but no new books.

They do say "Do you have any ideas for an audio drama?" or "We're doing a limited edition novella here; do you want to do it?" but the main series itself is, I'm sorry to say - in spite of thrilling conspiracies - guided entirely by us.

Which, I have to say, is a massive honour.



MontytheMighty said:


> I'll give Aaron the benefit of the doubt, though my inner cynic tells me that Aaron is either a good-hearted but rather naive fellow or a de factor PR spokesperson.


No one could accuse me of the latter with a straight face. I reckon I'm too much of a cunt to be considered the former.


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## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> Which, I have to say, is a massive honour.


Indeed it is, I'm honestly happy for the HH team if you bunch are given such latitude. I just hope it's not an illusion of latitude existing only because of a coincidental merging of authourial and corporate intent 



> No one could accuse me of the latter with a straight face. I reckon I'm too much of a cunt to be considered the former.


Very well...it's just hard to shake the cynic in me sometimes 



Hachiko said:


> Are they also pushing the different formats as well, the short stories (maybe) and the audio dramas? Do the authors decide what books get a hardcover release? Do the authors say, "Hey, GW has a boffo event coming up, so let's slap together a HH novella to get a limited run and a $50 price tag?" I doubt it. I'm guessing that's corporate talking.


Indeed. Some decisions are definitely made by the corporate management and not the authours. Those decisions are mainly the ones we find annoying 

I'm a hardcore supporter of the HH series. Another 10 years of HH novels? Bring it on I say. Even though there have been a significant number of disappointing entries, the gems have been worth it. Overall, I've enjoyed the high output


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## DeathJester921 (Feb 15, 2009)

Paceyjg said:


> I can read the books without the critical eye that you "purists" seem to share.


I'm with you there. I'm no critic. I just read the books to enjoy them. I have been disappointed in a few of them though, as I got little to no enjoyment out of them. The vast majority though, I liked.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

> Well in regards to negative reviews I would point out that I have only been reviewing the HH since A Thousand Sons was released, so not a lot of bad options really. However I will admit that after some thought I would not rank Prospero Burns as highly as I once did and I haven't read The Outcast Dead yet so I can't comment on it.


Those are my exact thoughts on


> Prospero Burns


. I feel like the rhythm of the Heresy has been messed after _The First Heretic_ was created. And no I'm not saying its ADB's fault. I'm saying at least in my view... he has made the last awesome book. 

After that its my opinion too many new authors and styles of writing were introduced into the Heresy. For example.. _Raven's Flight_... interesting... but why? The Outcast Dead was interesting, but all these insignificant stories are having whole books written on them. 

And as good as many people thought _Know no Fear_ was, I was expecting Dan to create an awesome character to look forward to throughout the Heresy. He had the legion but he failed to recreate what he did with Loken.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

And I had to add... I didn't like _Fear to Tread_. And I hate sounding like an asshole. But what the heck? We all know his style of writing. Why give him such an important event? I'm very dissapointed.


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## mal310 (May 28, 2010)

MontytheMighty said:


> I'm a hardcore supporter of the HH series. Another 10 years of HH novels? Bring it on I say. Even though there have been a significant number of disappointing entries, the gems have been worth it. Overall, I've enjoyed the high output


Yes very much agree, although I'd say _some_ as opposed to _a significant number of_!


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## increaso (Jun 5, 2010)

I have no concerns about the HH series dragging out, but I am becoming a little disillusioned.

When the novels first came out I was grabbing them on release, such was my eagerness to read them. I feel that the length of time to get the series to print (which I out down to the frequency of HH releases) and the massive gap between knowledge of release and actual release is diluting my interest.

I'm not saying that they should churn out crap to get a HH novel on the cards every month, but perhaps that the HH team should be put to work on the HH at the fore and leave the other authors to 40k for now. The thing I find frustrating is that the HH novels are set in a massive arc, not a setting like 40k. The novels are leading to something. And whilst most of the novels have a solid beginning; middle and end, the thrust of them is where is the main arc going or why are x like that in 40k?

I also, as a side note, see no reason why certain stories from the Age of Darkness can't be told after the Siege of Terra (in the same way that the Death of a Silversmith story has been told well after the opening arc - to which it has the most relevance). I appreciate that there are many other stories to tell that need to be told before the Siege of Terra; if only to create developed villains for Sigismund to own on Terra :biggrin:.

In conclusion, I would like to see more novels and more frequently.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

increaso said:


> I have no concerns about the HH series dragging out, but I am becoming a little disillusioned.
> 
> When the novels first came out I was grabbing them on release, such was my eagerness to read them. I feel that the length of time to get the series to print (which I out down to the frequency of HH releases) and the massive gap between knowledge of release and actual release is diluting my interest.
> 
> ...




i said this in another thread and pretty much got shot down for suggesting it. 

but for me that would be the ideal solution allround as it gives more authors the chance to add their story to the saga but also would be released at a pace that keeps fans interested on a level that we dont complain about the length of times between stories.

i think its not so much the quality of the stories thats the problem just the length of time between each release and while i love the idea of fleshing everything out and not rushing to the endgame, if there is a lengthy period between high quality stories then people will get abit restless about how things are panning out.

id say maybe BL should cut down on 40k stories, as lets be honest, that whole saga isnt really going anywhere fast so maybe efforts should be put into the saga that is interesting and has a meaning. 

i mean, theres only so many times you can read SM or IG fighting and winning a battle that really doesnt have any great relevance on the wider galaxy but if it HH battles it will have meaning and is much more enjoyable to read.


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## Xisor (Oct 1, 2011)

In many respects, I think part of the burn-out is coming from painful realisations of missed opportunities. Love _Horus Rising_ as I do, I can't help but notice the extreme absence of important bits of the setting that'd surely be remarkable to characters: techmarines (yay or nay), apothecaries, librarians (or what happened to them), chaplains (or why there aren't any in the Sons of Horus post-Nikaea) and so forth.

They're trivialities in the extreme, but on the otherhand they're little details that scream out at the reader if you've foreknowledge of the vague lines of the Heresy. In that regard, the positions of _Fulgrim_ and _Fear to Tread_ could be completely reversed in the series to the tune of making very little difference to the course of events _at all_. 

If FtT had came first, it'd expand on tons of ideas, setting up plots and whatnot left right and centre. In contrast _Fulgrim_ could be argued to be too neat, too compact and too final (despite/in-spite-of/remedied-by _TRC'd_). It brushes past Isstvan V rather swiftly and, like SH & others discuss over on the Bolthole, excepting _First Heretic_ and _Raven's Flight_, almost nothing is really seen of the dropsite Massacre itself!

There's cameos, but they're both small and conspicuous in almost equal measure. And I think that's a crushing symptom found in many of the works. Contrast, however, with the likes of _Crimson Fist_, _After Desh'ea_, _The Lightning Tower_, _Savage Weapons_ or _Iron Within_... you've got tiny, deft and artful stories which touch on a whole host of amazing, superb things.

And yet... we still waste our time on lacklustre First or low-numbered Captains! Where's the Captain of the 98th Company who ascends to take over the Chapter post-Heresy? Where's the series of loveable-scamp First Captains who keep being killed off in shockingly, devastatingly, soul-crushingly quick succession*?

In that respect, I think many of CotE's 'complaints' are trivial details that, whilst important, aren't really emblematic of why the series is faltering in some respects. It's not just the setting and topic of the stories that should be ambitious, it's embracing the entire concept of the setting. The difference in quality, I fear, between Jim's _The Liar's Due_ and his _Fear to Tread_ is perhaps more indicative of the problems faced/emerging/being-tackled, perhaps, than the detail-differences between _Collected Visions_ and _Blood Games_/_The Outcast Dead_/_Nemesis_.**

* Ah, that was _After Desh'ea_, well before the Heresy...

** *Important: The Emperor Away from the Throne*
I think his 'being AFK' during the Heresy is one of the most fundamental questions. His role is prime, crucial, fundamental. It's a metaphysical why of the whole setting in some respects. The Golden Throne. What is it? It's why Horus is in the position to become Warmaster. The Imperial Webway and Magnus' bollocksing-up of it is critical as to why the Emperor can't leave to deal with trivial little details like... half-a-dozen of his sons laying siege to the Palace.

In that regard, it seems like the content of HH:CV is disregarded, which is fair enough - it's not _brilliant_. But on the otherhand, if the Emperor can leave the throne now and then... what does that imply for Malcador's fate? Of course, there's tons of scope to play about and expand on things here, but the 'little goofs' in _Nemesis/Blood Games/The Outcast Dead_ don't seem like developments or expansions or setting-inspired decisions... they read like blasé mistakes. Which makes it even sillier: getting audience burn-out due to trivial details that give the wrong impression! Tragic! And not what's wanted by the authors, I expect!


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

@Xisor: Reading your post has actually helped clarified my own thoughts a little, so thanks for that.  



Xisor said:


> In many respects, I think part of the burn-out is coming from painful realisations of missed opportunities. Love _Horus Rising_ as I do, I can't help but notice the extreme absence of important bits of the setting that'd surely be remarkable to characters: techmarines (yay or nay), apothecaries, librarians (or what happened to them), chaplains (or why there aren't any in the Sons of Horus post-Nikaea) and so forth.
> 
> They're trivialities in the extreme, but on the otherhand they're little details that scream out at the reader if you've foreknowledge of the vague lines of the Heresy. In that regard, the positions of _Fulgrim_ and _Fear to Tread_ could be completely reversed in the series to the tune of making very little difference to the course of events _at all_.


That is a very good point. I love _Horus Rising_, but you have to wonder; if Abnett went back and wrote it again now, how different would the finished product be? Given how important Librarians (and indeed Chaplains) have been to the plot of several later publications (_Fear to Tread_, _Know No Fear_, _The Lion_ etc) it does raise the question when you go back to the beginning of the series, just where the hell are these individuals in the Luna Wolves or Emperor's Children? There is not a single reference to Nikaea in _Horus Rising_ or _Galaxy in Flames_, and the only references in _False Gods_ are in relation to Magnus. Nikaea; such a major event that occured only a very short amount of time before the series opens, you would have expected to hear about it and it's consequences, at least in passing. The Chaplain Edict, another element of an imposing Council of Terra (a major theme in the opening trilogy) was also not mentioned.

It's this continuity issue which is a major element in how the series appears messy and unorganised. The series contradicts itself (not in the good, mysterious way) too often. For example, the Legion-size debacle - something which you would have expected to have been organised before the series began - was only properly clarified after 12 books, and even then, not officially! As everyone has acknowledged these are trivial details, but are still important when you are dealing with a fanbase the likes of which 40k maintains.



Xisor said:


> ** *Important: The Emperor Away from the Throne*
> I think his 'being AFK' during the Heresy is one of the most fundamental questions. His role is prime, crucial, fundamental. It's a metaphysical why of the whole setting in some respects. The Golden Throne. What is it? It's why Horus is in the position to become Warmaster. The Imperial Webway and Magnus' bollocksing-up of it is critical as to why the Emperor can't leave to deal with trivial little details like... half-a-dozen of his sons laying siege to the Palace.
> 
> In that regard, it seems like the content of HH:CV is disregarded, which is fair enough - it's not _brilliant_. But on the otherhand, if the Emperor can leave the throne now and then... what does that imply for Malcador's fate? Of course, there's tons of scope to play about and expand on things here, but the 'little goofs' in _Nemesis/Blood Games/The Outcast Dead_ don't seem like developments or expansions or setting-inspired decisions... they read like blasé mistakes. Which makes it even sillier: getting audience burn-out due to trivial details that give the wrong impression! Tragic! And not what's wanted by the authors, I expect!





Xisor said:


> Of course, there's tons of scope to play about and expand on things here, but the 'little goofs' in _Nemesis/Blood Games/The Outcast Dead_ don't seem like developments or expansions or setting-inspired decisions... they read like blasé mistakes.


That is what I think is key. There is a massive opportunity with the series to play about with and expand on the previous lore, and that is a good thing. But when, as Xisor said, these "developments or expansions or setting-inspired decisions" get interpreted as goofy mistakes (which isn't exactly an unfair interpretation) rather than inspired expansions, we have a problem. Perhaps that is partly down to a rigid and fanatically loyal fanbase, the constraints of complying with previous lore, or perhaps part of the blame lies at the feet of particular authors themselves or the organisation of the series. Regardless, I think this is an important element - at least for me - in terms of why I feel disillusioned.


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## gothik (May 29, 2010)

to be honest there have been somethings in the heresy that i have had to read again and think is that right? or why was that not really explained. I enjoyed the Dark King and yet i would like to read how the Night Lords started crumbling from the inside with the influx of once again lawless Nostramans and when did Curze decide his sons were not all they had once been. 

I am enjoying the Alpha Legion tales as it keeps people guessing what side of the fence 
they really are.

I wish they had not brought Loken back, he had died in my opinion at the hands of Abaddon and was crushed under some falling masonary, i doubt even with his wounds he would have come back from that, it was a mockery really and i am not so sure about the whole Torgaddon thing....i suppose that's plausible but it seemed to me that there was some quick rehashing of favoured characters. 

I have my favourites and my least favourites and ones that i would not read again, to be honest the Dark Angels are my least favourite renditions and i hope that when it comes to telling the caliban story it is a lot better then it has been. Then i am not a Dark Angels fan, so i guess that lived upto my own negative expectations of them. 

of course people want to see thier favourite Leigons explained away, we saw what happened to Corax and the Raven Guard after Istvaan now it would be good to see what happened to Vulkan and the Salamanders instead of brushing over it and how the Iron Hands deal with the loss of not just thier Primarch but First Company, even if the war is over for them. 

It was a cop out with Fulgrim in my opinion, the novel Fulgrim was awesome and yet the Reflection Cracked was a too easy get out clause, i dont know if that was to answer many questions about wether Fulgrim was the deamon or the deamon was impersonating Fulgrim, but it seemed out of character to me. 

all in all its a good series but as has been said, you cannot please all of the people all of the time, maybe this novelisation is a retcon of the old lore to bring it more into line with the new followers of the hobby, i know when i started warhammer back in the 1980s at the delicate age of 18 apart from the Ultramarines and occassional mention of the Imperial Fists or Blood Angels other loyalist legions were more back ground information, and the same with the Chaos marines, it was the World Eaters or the Word Bearers the others were a footnote. So the HH series is good in that those who are relitively new to the hobby get to see more then the poster boys of the Loyalists and the choas poster boys, which is more then what was given twenty odd years ago.


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## vipertaja (Mar 20, 2010)

I'm falling behind on my reading pace, new books coming out while I've been on a reading block for a good long while, heaps unread (30k, 40k or otherwise). Overall I agree that the series seems never ending, but I'm not really bothered or disillusioned by it the way some here are. I can also see and agree on what ADB is saying about the magnitude of the thing.


I'm a slow reader and often have to put serious effort into reading through a book (though some are easier). One thing that often exhausts me is that I'm reading a Horus Heresy book and what do I see? YET ANOTHER ALIEN CIVILISATION to crush never to be mentioned again. Xenos have a place in 40k, but that's not why I read a horus heresy book. I'd prefer if the xenos campaign parts were short now that we've got the heresy ball rolling. If I want to read about Xenos I'll get a book about them (and am SO tempted to go for the eldar "path" series...but I've got so much unread stuff on the shelf...). Not that some of them haven't been interesting, though.

I recognise that this is mainly my problem though. My attention span is painfully short these days and isn't what it used to be. I may have to work on that. Not only is it a reading block, it's a drawing/painting block as well. AAARGH! :ireful2: (I don't know if a furiously humping emoticon portrays my feelings accurately, but I have a quota to meet on those things)


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## Serpion5 (Mar 19, 2010)

The series has lost my interest. I can't even bring myself to start reading know no fear.


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## Zinegata (Jan 25, 2012)

My first HH book was actually _Know No Fear_, and I'm honestly a bit surprised at how people seem to remember the older HH books. 

Yes, Horus Rising was nice, but the first couple of books that followed it frankly proceeded at a very glacial pace. It took like 4 novels before we finally got "Loyalists" and "Heresy" Marines shooting at each other in earnest, and the purge of the Loyalist elements covered like 2 books. 

(Not to mention that Loken and the loyalist more or less acted like idiots after the first novel, but I digress).

So I'm not really surprised that they will be stretching this out for much, much longer.


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## Unknown Primarch (Feb 25, 2008)

i think its about time for a novel with subject matter being the emperor. i really hated PB and i cant understand why it didnt start with the emperor and magnus in the throne room after the breach and some description of emp going nuts. that bit in TS were magnus knew what he had done was so poignant but was crying out for expansion in PB wasted opportunity again. its almost like they wanna try and skirt around every bit of good fluff and give you some rubbish to make up for it so to retain some kind of mystery about things!!! hello, the series is about REVEALING the mysteries of the heresy not playing out like a episode of lost!!!


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## radicallight (Sep 1, 2009)

It amazes me how long this debate has been going on in here, and over on the various HH Facebbok pages. Even prompting ADB to savage a few of the HH naysayers for calling it out. 
IMO the whole series is, at best, genre pulp, with little value other than providing a few cheap thrills two or three times a year. I think we can assume that most readers of this stuff have read other sci-fi/fantasy series' and understand what is good storytelling and what isn't. Spend some time with Gemmell, Tolkien, GRRM et al and, the HH series looks weak, immature and decidedly under-cooked in comparison (If you disagree, then please go and read more)
But is that entirely surprising? Do any of us really pick up the latest HH and expect a work of life-changing genius? or do we just want a quick hit of bolter porn to read whilst taking a shit?
In the near future, when i'm handing my library over the my teenage son, the HH will come with the proviso that he should only read the good ones and ditch the rest. Life is way too short to read "battle for the abyss". 

Lets accept the HH for what it is, not bemoaning what it will never be. The authors are churning these books out with tight deadlines, and sometimes the quality and continuity suffers. But we know that don't we?


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## Anakwanar (Sep 26, 2011)

*To radicallight and others*

1) I could agree or disagree with you. Black Library spent so much time, money and working hours on Horus Heresy and its Advertisement that its sad that after near 20 books in the serie - only 6 of them are genius and 4 simply good. Radicallight I love David Weber, George Martin and other great authors that you mentioned but last 2 books of Martin was utterly bullshit and i would better reread First Heretic, Galaxy In Flames, Thousand Sons, Savage weapons, Prince of Crows, or Legion then Santa-Barbara that became of Game of Thrones. In the meantime i will never take Battle for the Abyss, Fear to Thread, Fulgrim, False Gods, Descent of the Angels etc. in my hands again.

2) Paying so much money for the HH books we deserved to read at least 1 genius book and 1 simply good in a year!

3) About Aaron - he shows great promises, after all i reread First Heretic, Savage weapons and Prince of Crows for 5 times, even Abnetts books i havent read so much. And yes i hope that Betrayer would be good, maybe even genius, but having Angron in it, lets hope it would be good. 

4) And Heresy must move faster - all legions sidestories must be told in anthologies. For the guys who waiting for the siege of Terra o could say only this - why wait for this stupid storming the castle :hang1: when we have an apocalyptic naval warfare near the MOON! Lunar fleets battle must be written in a separate novel. After all its millions of tons of scrape metal pounding each other to death =) 

5) And to the guys who count the legions strength at the Siege of Terra - you missed 1 calculation in your logic - you forget 5 years of Age of Darkness before the Terra! Who many do you think World Eaters die at Ultramar worlds - thousands! How many iron warriors where annihilated at Tallarn. And how many legionnaires do you think die at the fleet battles and especially at the breaking of Lunar bases :biggrin: So considering this i would say no more then 50k Luna Wolves, 30-40k of WE, 30k of WB, 20k of IW, 10 k of EC, 40K of Death guard and thats it - everything else die along the way home :biggrin::biggrin:


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## TRU3 CHAOS (May 21, 2010)

Child of the Emperor elaborated on something interesting. He said what would Horus Rising be written if had been written down. 

I fear that it would be written with the Luna Wolves having special powers that other legions did not have and a mix of much more crap that has been invented throughout the Heresy. 

In my opinion there has been a long time where I feel a lot of information has been pretty much pulled out from the asses of the authors. So many novel that did not need to be and really expand the Heresy Universe. And I ask, should I care about that? Whats the different if I chose to read the Raven Guard novel. There was so much new information presented, but so what? All I feel it did was put a big question mark in my brain.

I think the Heresy Series did a terrible job at chosing what novels to right. So many novels that really didn't matter. What everyone's questions are, really come from key battles. Which in my opinion have really just met standards. 

The real problem in my opinion and I'm sure many fans are wondering about, is how the traitors thought they could win with all the loses they had sustained. It just doesn't make sense. The crap novels should have been about important battles and information about how the traitors were able to absorb enough forces to confront the Emperor.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Oh boy, I feel that I should rant on this thread again. I feel in the last couple years, the novels have been a bit questionable at best. None really grabbing me an getting me more involved with the Heresy.

The recent novel in my opinion has just sickened me. This is from a loyal Iron Warrior fan that I've been for many years. _Angel Exterminatus_.... wow. I don't need to bash it anymore as I've written my review on it. I have extremely begun to take ADB's stance on certain pieces of fluff more serious. Where my first stance on certain pieces of fluff was open, I no longer like that authors are creating very... interesting (not in a good way) new pieces of fluff that get me scratching my head.

My main problems have been these three novels, _Angel Exterminatus_, _Fear to Tread_, and _Know no Fear_. All these novels were in a way legion novels, with two of them important Heresy battles. They are quite the disapointment if you ask me. They did not renew the tragic betrayal in an emotional sense, and the characters in these new novels are no where near as good as the older novels.

I remember making a thread debating what memorable books I was going to purchase on hardback. I think I'll stop right here with _Angel Exterminatus_. I feel it all ended with _A Thousand Sons_ and _The First Heretic_.


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## bitsandkits (Mar 18, 2008)

Dead.Blue.Clown said:


> I've been to almost every Horus Heresy meeting for the last 3 years. Not once has anyone but an author mentioned when the series would end, or the progression, except when the line editor said, for the sake of the readership, editorial wanted the books to start dealing with events chronologically rather than jumping around in time. That necessitated a scheduling change, but no new books.
> 
> They do say "Do you have any ideas for an audio drama?" or "We're doing a limited edition novella here; do you want to do it?" but the main series itself is, I'm sorry to say - in spite of thrilling conspiracies - guided entirely by us.
> 
> ...


Doesnt the fact that the BL management not mentioning an end to the series mean they are by default milking it for all they can get? and the fact they are allowing the authors to "guide it" also add weight to that, i can imagine it is a great honour to write the series but lets face it, getting your work in print and a nice cheque for doing so means an author isnt going to be in any rush to complete the saga ? Cards on the table the HH could in effect never actually be drawn to the inevitable conclusion if the writers wanted to carry on "guiding it " so to speak.

its hard to comprehend that management of BL are clueless and without any form of plan as to the direction of such an important and lucrative series of books, they must have a plan of sorts even if they didnt make it known to the "talent" at the meetings, after all they are part of GW and that makes them part of a PLC which has investors and shareholders, who by there very nature will want to know what the plan is for BL and by extension the HH series.

Most likely the overall plan will become known if the series starts to falter and sales start to be effected, then i imagine pressure from above will make certain things happen and we will see a shift in the focus of the story to something meaty, at the moment BL have enough people willing to buy the stories to keep the revenue nice and healthy so there is no need to start prodding authors to make changes or to move the story arc on.


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## raider1987 (Dec 3, 2010)

I think reflecting on the tragic betrayal has been done really well several times over now, and its time that we have moved onto the meat of the heresy, which I think several of the last novels have done really well. However, I completely agree with their being a lack of strong central characters in the last few books. I mean I couldn't for the life of me name the main characters in fear to tread or know no fear, great books as they were.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

I think its also important that people realize that the battles for the Ultramarines and the Bloods Angels are so important and famous, that by themselves they make almost any novel good. Ben Counter could probably be trusted to make a decent battle with his writing style. 

There were novels I wasn't typically impressed with back in the day that I now admire greatly comparing them to the recent works.


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