# The Emperor's Relationship With His 'Sons'



## D-A-C (Sep 21, 2010)

Hey everyone.

I just wanted to start a small discussion (rant) about a bit of confusion regarding the fluff about the relationship between the Emperor and the Primarchs.

*In short : He isn't there dad and they aren't his sons.*

Now what I mean by this is that, whilst the Emperor and the Primarchs were no doubt quite close and I'm sure he had alot of emotional investment in them, and they certainly had alot vested in him, he wasn't necessarily a father figure.

One Primarch quite correctly remarked (Sanguinus I believe) that the Emperor had no equal even with the Primarchs. He was all alone in what he was, basically a living God. Therefore as close as he got to some of the Primarchs (and he did get close to a few of them, especially Horus, Sanguinus and Magnus) but he would never only of viewed them through the lens of parenthood. They were his creations, his progeny that were various aspects of his own person; but they were also his tools through which to forge the Empire of Mankind. 

People keep asking "Why didn't he just tell them what he was doing on Terra?", the answer really could be as simple as he felt it was none of their business at that time. They were tasked with conquering the stars, not with poking about in his affairs. He would tell them when he was ready.

What the Emperor is guilty of is not appreciating the emotional void he left in each of the Primarchs when he left their sides. But again, he wasn't one of them, he is so above everyone (including them) that it is quite possible he made a mistake in his judgement regarding their various emotional states; whereas he always showed a profound knowledge of their skills and capabilities. Again, he wasn't one of them, he didn't know what it was like to feel as they felt. 

Now as I said, this isn't to say that the Emperor didn't take pride in his 'Sons' or that he didn't apprecate them and his times teaching and instructing them, but for him, at the end of it all, they were his creations and not his family. He was without peer or equal and I think people need to take that aspect of the fluff regarding the relationship between the Emperor and his 'Sons' into a bit more consideration when constantly arguing that "the Emperor was stupid for not recognizing the Heresy" or "for not simply telling them what he was up to."

I hope this idea provides some basis for further discussion and helps some people understand the fluff more clearly (at least in terms of my opinion of it).

So what do you all think?


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## Chompy Bits (Jun 13, 2010)

I still think the Emperor was a fucking moron. Even if he did see himself as so far removed of them, living countless millenia among humanity should have taught him a thing or two about how to handle humans. Also, even if he didn't tell them about the webway plan (which I still don't see what the harm would have been), he still could have given them more info with regards to the warp. You can't expect to send your armies out to conquer the galaxy when they are half- or misinformed about some of the threats they inevitably will face. If he'd told any of them the truth, just think how different things could have been.

On the topic of their relationship, the Emperor might not have thought of the primarchs as his 'sons' but they sure as hell thought of him as a father. As the most powerful psyker in existence at the time, he should have been able to pick up on that and realise the amount of emotional attachment the primarchs felt towards him.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I agree with _DAC_. To quote myself from another thread:



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I think that is where the misconception begins. By using terms such as 'father' we automatically imagine a caring, protective individual - but that is not accurate at all.
> 
> The Primarchs were not the Emperor's 'sons' in the emotional sense as we use the term. They were his creations, created with the sole intention of mindlessly serving his dreams and aspirations, ultimately to conquer the galaxy for him. The Emperor was not obliged to act as a father figure, that was never his intention - to forge for himself sons in the conventional sense of the word, he wanted servants.
> 
> That's not to say he didn't form some sort of emotional connections with several of the Primarchs though, Horus and Magnus spring to mind as examples. But the common mistake I find that people make is that they think of the Emperor and Primarchs as father and sons, which is associated with several emotional connections which just weren't present.


In this regard, the Heresy can be more attributed to the susceptibility and vulnerabilities of the Primarchs, rather than the actions of the Emperor.



Chompy Bits said:


> If he'd told any of them the truth, just think how different things could have been.


Things could have gone much worse.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Things could have gone much worse.


How so?

The catalyst to the Heresy was essentially the Webway project.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> How so?
> 
> The catalyst to the Heresy was essentially the Webway project.


The catalyst for the Heresy was the corruption of Horus, which of course was not merely the result of the Imperial webway project. The corruption of the Primarchs was the culmination of millions of subtle events and deeds, not merely the result of the Emperor returning to Terra.

The Emperor had his reasons for not informing the Primarchs of his secrets. But let us speculate on the alternative; inform the Primarchs of chaos and other secrets of the universe. First and foremost such revelations at the most basic level would have undermined the Emperor's influence and authority. It may have even ensured the fall of several Primarchs. Lorgar for example, it would have validated the Old Faith of Colchis which would have had severe consequences. Mortarion's admiration of the strong and worthy may well have found admiration for beings such as gods. Fulgrim's strive for perfection in all things, such philosophy would inevitably question who was more perfect, the gods or the Emperor? Et cetera. 

It's a similar situation that the Imperium finds itself in in M41. The Inquisition ruthlessly supresses any knowledge of chaos for fear that it would turn people away from the Imperial fold. Similarily the Emperor supressed such knowledge, even from his closest generals. People would question his authority, what makes him right? If there are gods out there, shouldn't they be worshipped, rather than following a mere mortal? Humans are afterall selfish, with such power available to them that knowledge of chaos offers, would the species be strong-willed enough to resist? It only takes the fall of a single individual or a small group to bring about the fall of an entire planet.


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## Angel of Blood (Aug 18, 2010)

CotE (beating me to it like usual(damn you!)) already summed up what i was going to say. It could have easily been alot worse. Like its been said many of the primarchs might have easily turned to chaos instead of following the Emperor. Along with the points CotE raised already, some of them may have been struck a mortal blow like Horus, but being the proud beings they were called out to Chaos to save them, knowing it was their only chance for survival. The more reckless among them may have just charged straight into the Eye of Terror to wage war on the gods and inevitably lost. 

And again people really need to read the First Heretic to properly understand the catalyst for the Horus Heresy. Everything was set in motion from the moment get go, the moment the Primarchs were 'born' Chaos was already setting plans in motion to bring about their corruption and fall. The manipulations of Horus went back decades before the Heresy began or the Emperor retired, as did the steady corruption of the other Legions. The Emperor could have been the kinded and most empathic being in the universe and it still probably would have happened.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The catalyst for the Heresy was the corruption of Horus, which of course was not merely the result of the Imperial webway project. The corruption of the Primarchs was the culmination of millions of subtle events and deeds, not merely the result of the Emperor returning to Terra.


I would think the Emperor's secrecy and his policy of keeping the Primarchs at a somewhat distant, 'not so fatherly' way played a larger role in the way some Primarchs eventually viewed him.

With Horus he slowly began to resent the Emperor because he wouldn't let them in onto whatever it was that made him retire to the Palace and gave him the impression that he merely was using the Primarchs as tools for war.

With Magnus he rebuked his meddling with the warp past certain levels and eventually the council of Nikae sealed the deal and he also gave him the impression that he merely wanted to use Magnus's psychic prowess for his own needs. And of course the vision he received of the corpse-like figure on the Golden Throne played a large role in his paranoia.

And of course the meddling of the Chaos Powers did play a large role in the Heresy but the way I see it is that they already simply exploited doubts and paranoia the Primarchs already and naturally developed on their own towards the Emperor. 

I see the Chaos Powers as not having come up with anything on their own in turning some of the Primarchs to their side but rather like opportunistic vultures, swooped down on the Primarchs when they were vulnerable and took advantage of their negative treatment by the Emperor and planted the seed of doubt to which when ripened, they exploited even further.

I don't think if the Chaos powers forcibly tried to persuade the Primarchs to their side would have worked due to the Emperor's strong presence in them and so they used the Emperor's own mistakes against him.

I tend to look at the Emperor as being the strongest psyker to have ever lived and because of how immensely strong he is, he is to an extent untouchable to the schemes and machinations of the Chaos powers and thus they strike out at him in ways they can ie. using his treatment of his Primarchs against him.

With Lorgar, he was rebuked for worshipping the Emperor and 

embarrassed in front of his rival brother Guilliman 
 which led to a culmination of events that saw the worship-hungry Lorgar turn his attentions elsewhere to where he would be embraced not rebuked for his obsessive need to worship.




Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Emperor had his reasons for not informing the Primarchs of his secrets. But let us speculate on the alternative; inform the Primarchs of chaos and other secrets of the universe. First and foremost such revelations at the most basic level would have undermined the Emperor's influence and authority. It may have even ensured the fall of several Primarchs. Lorgar for example, it would have validated the Old Faith of Colchis which would have had severe consequences. Mortarion's admiration of the strong and worthy may well have found admiration for beings such as gods. Fulgrim's strive for perfection in all things, such philosophy would inevitably question who was more perfect, the gods or the Emperor? Et cetera.


From 'the First Heretic':



_"We are here to seek evidence for the existence of gods, sire. No gods worthy of worship could demand this of their followers."

Lorgar turned back to the ceremony, massaging his temples. "Those my son are the wisest words anyone has spoken since we found this world. The answers I am finding have dismayed me. Torture? Human sacrifice?" _ 




Lorgar placed the quill on the parchment and closed his eyes - a reflection of that moment in the cavern: months ago to Argel Tal, only a handful of nights ago to the primarch himself.

'I curse the truth we have discovered,' he confessed. 'I curse the fact that we have reached the edge of reality, only for hatred and damnation to stare back at us from the abyss.'

'The truth is often ugly. It is why people believe lies. Deception offers them something beautiful.' 


*Spoilers *below

*Note: I'm still halfway through the novel so I am not fully informed about Lorgar's stance or how he eventually turns to Chaos so correct me if I say anything that goes against the novel*

I think this sums up how Lorgar sees Chaos at the time he visits Cadia, and dismayed that the old teachings seek to please such cruel powers leaves a bad taste in his mouth. 

I don't think Mortarion would have viewed the Chaos powers as being stronger entities that demanded respect seeing as how when he was caught in the warp storm, he seemingly begged for their help in saving him and his Legion and ultimately came to despise himself for falling so low and to serving such disgusting beings. 

The same with Fulgrim, had he of known what the Chaos Pantheon demanded of their followers and how they mutated their followers into monstrosities that go against his classical and idealistic visions of perfection, he would side with the Emperor's stance against them.

My point being that if the Primarchs were told of the Chaos powers and what they demand of their followers, they would not disregard the Emperor as being a weaker entity but rather would see his logic in rising against them and reducing their influence on humanity. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> It's a similar situation that the Imperium finds itself in in M41. The Inquisition ruthlessly supresses any knowledge of chaos for fear that it would turn people away from the Imperial fold. Similarily the Emperor supressed such knowledge, even from his closest generals. People would question his authority, what makes him right? If there are gods out there, shouldn't they be worshipped, rather than following a mere mortal? Humans are afterall selfish, with such power available to them that knowledge of chaos offers, would the species be strong-willed enough to resist? It only takes the fall of a single individual or a small group to bring about the fall of an entire planet.


I agree in that regular humans or those living in poor conditions would probably seek to serve Chaos as they disregard the class, and status of their followers and only look at their deeds.

But to beings such as Primarchs and the Astartes, that's another story and it was ultimately the Primarch's betrayal that led to the rest of humanity following in their footsteps.


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## Engindeer (Dec 1, 2010)

This is to me one of the best themes in 40k.

The only thing keeping the Emperor from going all Doctor Manhattan and leave all to their own devices, is his persistence in keeping his sympathy for humanity intact.

He wants to be revered as a person, not a god.

He is genuinely interested in the future of mankind.

He cares deeply for his experiments, as he knows they are fundamental in building a better world, faster.

Ultimately it's his humanity, that gets the better of him - He commits the sin of pride, when he refuses to acknowledge Horus' descent into chaos, and meets his own destruction, when he knew that to obliterate Horus it would require his biggest sacrifice: His Humanity.

The Emperor never cared for the primarchs as sons, but as parts of a better, bigger and brighter tommorrow. They were supposed to be the epitome of perfection, and to acknowledge their flaws would be the sound choice, but instead he sacrifices everything in his pride, even the last vestiges of his empathy.

That's why I think people should stop calling The Emperor a 'bad father', as it has no such meaning in the context.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

My thoughts between the Emperor and his Primarchs is interesting at best. There is much evidence to show that at least to some of the Primarchs, the Emperor seemed to have spent much time and investment on. However, there are other Primarchs that seemed to have been kept at a distant. 

So I'm quite confused with the reasons he did so. Especially because it was these sons that were the most distant that also turned on him. Perhaps not Horus or Fulgrim. But certainly Primarchs like Konrad Curze, Perturabo, Angron, Logar, and maybe Mortarion. 

Two/three examples that I often bring up are Leman Russ, Vulkan, and Angron. These three primarchs required special attention in order for the Emperor to bring them into the Imperium. Both Luman Russ and Vulkan used series of trials in which the Emperor basically won. Angron just needed to save his brother gladiators and the Emperor instead just sucks him into the ship and lets them all die. 

The Emperor also decides randomly one day after several decades that Logar isn't meeting up to par with the Crusades and that he is wrong. Just randomly and out of the blue. And he doesn't due this with a simple private meeting or talk. Instead he decides to destroy a completely loyal world that the Word Bearers brought to compliance.

S


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## Bloody Mary (Nov 6, 2009)

ckcrawford said:


> The Emperor also decides randomly one day after several decades that Logar isn't meeting up to par with the Crusades and that he is wrong. Just randomly and out of the blue. And he doesn't due this with a simple private meeting or talk. Instead he decides to destroy a completely loyal world that the Word Bearers brought to compliance.
> 
> S


I don't think you can call say he decided randomly. It was after decades of repeating in public that he's not a god and he doesn't want to be worshiped, and Lorgar not getting the hint.


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## ckcrawford (Feb 4, 2009)

Bloody Mary said:


> I don't think you can call say he decided randomly. It was after decades of repeating in public that he's not a god and he doesn't want to be worshiped, and Lorgar not getting the hint.


It was though. I will quote ADB.



> What actually happened is that Lorgar spent almost a decade on Colchis waging a war of religious genocide, slaughtering millions of people while a planet burned, in the name of a god that his powers told him was true. After that, he spent 100 years in perfect faith and trust conquering worlds and raising literal paradises - never being lectured once. Then, out of the blue, the Emperor shames him in front of his brothers, casts his Legion into the dust, annihilates his greatest work, kills countless people who had trusted Lorgar to make their lives better, and tells Lorgar that not only has his entire life been wasted, but that he's the only failure in the family. His powers are broken. Just his. No one else's. And by the way, not only has his entire life been wasted in a lie, but so have the lives of all his sons. All one hundred thousand of them. And he's to blame for that, too. Wasting the lives of one hundred thousand people who should have been following the Emperor.


As we see, it shows that indeed it was a surprise to Logar and his legion, after so many years of doing the same thing, to all of a sudden be condemned and humiliated in front of the whole Imperium. We can also see by Magnus that the Emperor actually thought of doing a lot more to him, by going around and asking the other Primarchs.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> From 'the First Heretic':
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lorgar discovers the truth in chaos, he doesn't like it and it's not pretty but it's the truth nonetheless. He is fearful and skeptical of it initially (who wouldn't be?) but he comes to accept it. 

Going back to the original point. If the Old Faith of Colchis was validated (by the Emperor revealing the truth of chaos) as not only viable but also divinely inspired it would heavily undermine the Emperor's authority. 

Some immensely powerful psyker turns up and reveals to you that the faith of your world is absolutley correct, but then tells you it is wrong, you would have quite a dilemma on your hands. Also take into account the mindset of Lorgar. Following Monarchia (and the subsequent disregard of the Emperor's divinity by Erebus and Kor Phaeron) Lorgar realised that the brutal civil war (first purge of the Brotherhood) inflicted by his own hand on his own world was based on a lie, it almost shattered his psychological wellbeing to know he had done such a thing. Imagine the situation had the Emperor arrived and actually validated the truth of the Old Faith there and then, it would have pushed Lorgar into a similar mindset (knowing he had massacred all those innocents potentially for nothing) and thus it would have planted the seed of doubt in regards to the Emperor's leadership immediately. And with Kor Phaeron (still an advocate of the Old Faith) and Erebus around, Lorgar would have fallen regardless.



Malus Darkblade said:


> My point being that if the Primarchs were told of the Chaos powers and what they demand of their followers, they would not disregard the Emperor as being a weaker entity but rather would see his logic in rising against them and reducing their influence on humanity.


I don't agree with that. Regardless of what the Emperor told the Primarchs, they still would have had to have made the judgement for themselves. Regardless of what the Emperor said, they still would have been tempted and potentially corrupted. Your assuming knowledge of chaos would draw beings into opposition of it, but actually more often than not the sheer attraction and opportunities it offers (alongside reasons to turn against the Emperor) would have resulted in corruption. At least I think theres a stronger case for suggesting such.

The Emperor knew what he was doing, he knew informing the Primarchs in regard to chaos and the warp would have been idiotic.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Going back to the original point. If the Old Faith of Colchis was validated (by the Emperor revealing the truth of chaos)


How would revealing the truth of Chaos validate the Old Faith? The Emperor wouldn't be listing the pros and cons of turning to Chaos (lol) but rather would say how they're not benevolent at all, quite psychotic and never keep their word. Another reason to stick with the Big E.

Simply acknowledging that the entities the Old Faith worshiped do exist wouldn't be an instant switch over from the Imperial Truth to Chaos for Lorgar I wouldn't think. 

Lorgar would question the emperor day and night for answers and I'm quite certain the Emperor, coupled with the facts and his charisma would have made Lorgar understand what they truly are.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Some immensely powerful psyker turns up and reveals to you that the faith of your world is absolutley correct


Did the Emperor ever tell Lorgar that worshiping him was acceptable? I'm certain Lorgar said the Emperor didn't say anything to Lorgar for over a century other than to pick up the pace of conquering of worlds until that eventful day at Monarchia, hence Lorgar's utter surprise.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Imagine the situation had the Emperor arrived and actually validated the truth of the Old Faith there and then, it would have pushed Lorgar into a similar mindset (knowing he had massacred all those innocents potentially for nothing) and thus it would have planted the seed of doubt in regards to the Emperor's leadership immediately.


If the Emperor validated the truth of the Old Faith back when he first met Lorgar you mean? 

Not sure what you mean by validate here, as in he would say the Old Faith (ie worshiping Chaos) was ok or validate as in the beings they used to worship do in fact exist?

If it's the latter, then I don't see how slaughtering worshipers of such foul beings would have upset Lorgar, whose visions of the Emperor eventually drove him away from following down their path and essentially saving him from the predations of Chaos.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And with Kor Phaeron (still an advocate of the Old Faith) and Erebus around, Lorgar would have fallen regardless.


Like Chaos, they simply took advantage of Lorgar when he was down, a result of the Emperor, a folly on his part. Had the Emperor have treated Lorgar differently, I don't think he would have been so vulnerable to be taken advantage of by the likes of Erebus and Kor Phaeron.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> I don't agree with that. Regardless of what the Emperor told the Primarchs, they still would have had to have made the judgement for themselves. Regardless of what the Emperor said, they still would have been tempted and potentially corrupted. Your assuming knowledge of chaos would draw beings into opposition of it, but actually more often than not the sheer attraction and opportunities it offers (alongside reasons to turn against the Emperor) would have resulted in corruption. At least I think theres a stronger case for suggesting such.


That's possible but let's not forget the Primarchs are different beings all together and can see through the lies of Chaos. In my opinion, it's simply because of the Emperor's treatment that the Primarchs turned to the soft whisperings of Chaos who promised nothing but good things in a world turned upside down by the Emperor's callous treatment and deceit.


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Malus Darkblade said:


> How would revealing the truth of Chaos validate the Old Faith? The Emperor wouldn't be listing the pros and cons of turning to Chaos (lol) but rather would say how they're not benevolent at all, quite psychotic and never keep their word.


Imagine some immensely powerful galactic entity coming to Earth now and revealing to everyone that God does exist, offers proof, and informs us that Jesus truly was the son of God. But then informs us that we shouldn't worship him. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> Another reason to stick with the Big E.


The Emperor informing the Primarchs of chaos but then informing them to mindlessly follow him would cause many issues. Revealing immensely powerful (more so than he) warp entities, portraying them in a bad light and then expect none of his Primarchs to investigate or validate such things further would have been folly of the highest order. Can you imagine Magnus (untempered arrogance) not seeking validation? Fulgrim and his philosophical strive for perfection, can you imagine him not even pondering on whether or not these entities actually embodied perfection rather than the Emperor? Horus with his obsessive ambition, would the thought not even cross his mind?

What about the countless worlds across the galaxy where Imperial compliance wasn't fully established and where rebellion still gripped the thoughts of the populations. Would they not be more tempted to rebel given the knowledge of entities more powerful than the Emperor offering patronage?

What the Emperor would have done in an attempt to establish his authority, would have been to actually give the Primarchs (and the Imperium) a solid alternative to his rule. 

Sorry, but whatever anyone says, the Emperor revealing knowledge of chaos to the Primarchs would have been idiotic and to the Imperium as a whole it would have been damn right suicidal.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Simply acknowledging that the entities the Old Faith worshiped do exist wouldn't be an instant switch over from the Imperial Truth to Chaos for Lorgar I wouldn't think.


I didn't say that. I said realisation of their existence coupled with the knowledge of what Lorgar did in the first purge of the Brotherhood would have planted the seeds of doubt in regards to the Emperor's authority, at the very least. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> Lorgar would question the emperor day and night for answers and I'm quite certain the Emperor, coupled with the facts and his charisma would have made Lorgar understand what they truly are.


As I said though, ultimately each individual has to make the judgement for themselves, in the face of everything that chaos offers. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> Did the Emperor ever tell Lorgar that worshiping him was acceptable? I'm certain Lorgar said the Emperor didn't say anything to Lorgar for over a century other than to pick up the pace of conquering of worlds until that eventful day at Monarchia, hence Lorgar's utter surprise.


The Emperor didn't tell Lorgar not to worship him until Monarchia, despite hypocritically spreading the Imperial Truth simultaneously. Silence and inaction on the Emperor's part was logically taken by Lorgar as approval and validation, until Monarchia anyway.



Malus Darkblade said:


> Not sure what you mean by validate here, as in he would say the Old Faith (ie worshiping Chaos) was ok or validate as in the beings they used to worship do in fact exist?
> 
> If it's the latter, then I don't see how slaughtering worshipers of such foul beings would have upset Lorgar, whose visions of the Emperor eventually drove him away from following down their path and essentially saving him from the predations of Chaos.


_The First Heretic_ tells us he was distraught beyond words at what he had done to Colchis. He may not have known truly about chaos but he knew what methods worshippers of the Old Faith used, human sacrifice Et cetera. But that didn't mean such mass slaughter of innocents sat well with Lorgar. Especially after Monarchia and realisation that the Emperor wasn't a god (which would have occured immediately upon Lorgar's discovery in our hypothetical situation) when Lorgar realised that he had purged his homeworld in the name of a lie. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> Like Chaos, they simply took advantage of Lorgar when he was down, a result of the Emperor, a folly on his part. Had the Emperor have treated Lorgar differently, I don't think he would have been so vulnerable to be taken advantage of by the likes of Erebus and Kor Phaeron.


Erebus and Kor Phaeron were ruthlessly loyal to Lorgar, regardless of what some of their actions seem to imply. I don't think they took advantage of Lorgar nor do I think their influence would have been diminished had the Emperor not been deceitful. One of Lorgar's primary attributes was that he was too trusting remember.



Malus Darkblade said:


> That's possible but let's not forget the Primarchs are different beings all together and can see through the lies of Chaos.


They can? A few examples would go done a treat here. 



Malus Darkblade said:


> In my opinion, it's simply because of the Emperor's treatment that the Primarchs turned to the soft whisperings of Chaos who promised nothing but good things in a world turned upside down by the Emperor's callous treatment and deceit.


I think we are going to have to agree to disagree.


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