# Guilliman the Usurper?



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

I believe there is two ways in which one can look at Roboute Guilliman Post-Heresy. Either as a Saviour, or as a Usurper.

This Thread is about the latter. Was Guilliman a Usurper of Power? Or did he do what was necessary even if it was technically against the Emperor's wishes?

The First argument for Guilliman Being a Usurper is summed up in the following quote:



Horus Heresy Collected Visions Page 324 'The Golden Throne' said:


> "...Dorn, you are to assume full and absolute command of all the remaining loyal troops of the Imperium.


The Emperor makes Rogal Dorn the new Warmaster in all but name prior to the Siege of Terra. After the Emperor's ascension, Dorn is in the best position to resume command of the Imperium - The Emperor's orders were direct and Guilliman was given no such blessing.

The Second Argument is based on Guilliman's jealously at Horus being made Warmaster:



False Gods Page 200 said:


> "When the Emperor made me Warmaster, it was all some of them could do to congratulate me. Angron especially, he was a wild one, and even now I can barely keep him in check. Guilliman wasn't much better. I could tell he thought it should have been him."
> 
> "They were jealous of you?" Asked Petronella...
> 
> "Oh yes," nodded Horus bitterly. "Only a few of my brothers were gracious enough to bow and mean it. Lorgar, Mortarion, Sanguinius, Fulgrim and Dorn - They are true brothers..."





False Gods Page 200 said:


> "...The responsibility lies with me. Throne! Guilliman will laugh when he hears of this: him and the Lion both. They will say I was not fit to be Warmaster..."


This Second Quote in my opinion kind of sums up the relationship between Horus and Guilliman Post-Ullanor. Guilliman trying to find any weakness in Horus to exploit and then point out that Horus shouldn't be Warmaster.

And for Guilliman to be compared to The Lion who is obviously far too arrogant (As we see from _Fallen Angels_) and strongly believes he should have been Warmaster and who is certainly Jealous of Horus also says a lot.

This Second Argument points out that not only was Guilliman jealous of Horus but that he thought he himself should have been Warmaster. Both these points can easily be used to make Guilliman out to be a Usurper. Firstly that Dorn had the precedent of being in Command of the Imperium, and secondly that Guilliman thought he should have been Warmaster. 

Now Lets look at this realistically. Following the Heresy; Ok he wrote the Codex Astartes which subsequently split his Legion into many Chapters. It is extremley likely however that he still retained some influence in all of these Sucessor Chapters, and they would have taken commands from him and would have rallied around him if asked, after all he was still their Primarch. The whole point of the Codex Astartes was to prevent any individual gaining the same amount of power and influence Horus had, thereby reducing the chance of a large-scale rebellion occuring again within the Astartes. The Hypocrisy being that Guilliman himself actually wielded as much if not more power and influence following the Heresy than Horus wielded prior to the Heresy.

This information, coupled with the fact that the Emperor personally made Rogal Dorn in charge of the Imperium can be used to describe Guilliman as a 'Usurper' - after all he wanted to be named Warmaster in the first place, I guess he got what he wanted after the Heresy and the death of Horus (Unprecedented Power, Influence and Command with no Rivals)

I just wanted to know everyone's thoughts on the matter


----------



## primeministersinsiter (May 31, 2009)

It's an interesting theory but I don't buy it. Not likeing pre-Heresy Horus doesn't make him jealous out of hand, it might make him a good judge of character. Maybe.
Also, Dorn would have driven every available resource into revenge. I think Gully knew which way the wind was blowing. He may have been happy as hell to take the lime light, but I don't think he'd stage a coup.


----------



## fungusyak (Jul 26, 2008)

Interesting idea, the ultramarines were definatly the largest legion, and they took relativly few casualties in the horus heresy, leaving guilliman in control of the most powerful loyalist force in the galexy, whereas all dorn had was the word of an essentialy dead emporer. 
That, and smurfs smelluke:.


----------



## CaptainLoken (May 13, 2009)

Also they would be jealous of each other as at the end of the day they are all brothers to one another and all tried to impress there father the most!! Just as it can happen with families. 

So at the end of the day even for all there enhancements there was still a trace of human nature in them. so they still fell to as we know greed, jealousy, anger, lust pride to name but a few....


----------



## MontytheMighty (Jul 21, 2009)

primeministersinsiter said:


> Not likeing pre-Heresy Horus doesn't make him jealous out of hand, it might make him a good judge of character. Maybe.


As described in the Heresy books, Horus never struck me as being weak of character.

Out of all the primarchs, he was probably the most devoted son despite his flaws (feeling that the Emperor had abandoned him, doubting his own ability to lead the Crusade, fearing humiliation in the eyes of his brother primarchs), which were minor compared to those of other primarchs such as the Lion, Russ, Lorgar... 
it seems that without first infecting Horus's mind with a chaos weapon, chaos would not have been able to successfully exploit Horus's weaknesses


----------



## Fallen Angel Sammael (Jun 18, 2009)

fungusyak said:


> Interesting idea, the ultramarines were definatly the largest legion, and they took relativly few casualties in the horus heresy, leaving guilliman in control of the most powerful loyalist force in the galexy, whereas all dorn had was the word of an essentialy dead emporer.
> That, and smurfs smelluke:.


What about the Dark Angels and space wolves Legions? They rushed back and aided the loyal legions and helped drive the traitor legions back.

Wouldn't their legions still be at nearly full strength? :victory:


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

I wouldn't say the Dark Angels were at "full strength", considering the abominations Lion made to hasten up his Legion's recovery process. I'm a bit unsure about the Space Wolves too, since they fought the Thousand Sons on Prospero and obviously suffered considerable casualties. 

About the topic, I find your reasoning sound enough. Though not having read the books makes my opinion rather irrelevant.


----------



## Baron Spikey (Mar 26, 2008)

You're confusing the Lion and Corax of the Raven Guard there- it was Corax who ended up creating abominations in order to speed up the recovery of his Legion.


----------



## Khorothis (May 12, 2009)

Whoops, sorry, I often mix up those two guys.


----------



## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

I doubt he was a usurper, it seems he was more motivated by the long view of what was needed by the Imperium. 

It also seems likely that he was the only one with the ability to actually take reigns of the Imperium at that time. Think about it, Ferrus and Sanguinius were dead, Vulkan had vanished, Corax was busy trying to rebuild his legion, Lion had vanished and The Khan and Russ were not in any way suitable for ruling such a vast Empire. And Dorn was absolutely consumed with greif and only capale of thinking of Revenge. That really only leaves Guilliman as the only person with enough power and ability to take command of the Imperium. 

It's the same with the Legions. The Fists, The Blood Angels and the White Scars were battered and bloody after the battle at Terra. The Dark Angels had been battered by their Civil War and the their war against I think The Night Lords. The Wolves were hammered by their battles at Prospero and against the Alpha Legion. The others were all smashed into dust by the dropsite massacre. If you think about the Ultramarines were the only Legion with enough strength to actually do ANYTHING in the aftermath of the heresy.


----------



## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

Fallen Angel Sammael said:


> What about the Dark Angels and space wolves Legions? They rushed back and aided the loyal legions and helped drive the traitor legions back.
> 
> Wouldn't their legions still be at nearly full strength? :victory:


Well the Space Wolves suffered heavily casualties during the Burning of Prospero, and were ambushed by the Alpha Legion following the defeat of the Thousand Sons. I think its safe to say the Wolves of Fenris were not at full strength 

As for the Dark Angels, They wouldn't have suffered much at all. It is implied that they engaged the Night Lords on the Eastern Fringes but apart from that they were largely intact (at least that was prior to the Civil War on Caliban that followed the Heresy anyway.)

& Aside from that Guilliman could muster around 250,000 Ultramarines during the Great Crusade whilst the other legions could only muster around 100,000 according to the Collected Visions.


----------



## Fallen (Oct 7, 2008)

i thought that the Word Bearers were just, if slightly less, as large as the Ultramarines?

or was that just hearsay

back to the OP, ya Guilliman is a 'usurper' only because there was, in reality, no one that could oppose him. all the other loyalists couldnt even balance the numbers alone...also note that the smurfs have an entire sector / system dedicated to them, not just a single planet - so they also have PDFs and likely Imperial Army units also, remember the IG was created after the heresy.

semi-rant-thing over


----------



## Digg40k (Sep 7, 2008)

To turn your argument on it's head with your own argument...



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Now Lets look at this realistically. Following the Heresy; Ok he wrote the Codex Astartes which subsequently split his Legion into many Chapters. It is extremley likely however that he still retained some influence in all of these Sucessor Chapters, and they would have taken commands from him and would have rallied around him if asked, after all he was still their Primarch. The whole point of the Codex Astartes was to prevent any individual gaining the same amount of power and influence Horus had, thereby reducing the chance of a large-scale rebellion occuring again within the Astartes. The Hypocrisy being that Guilliman himself actually wielded as much if not more power and influence following the Heresy than Horus wielded prior to the Heresy.


Yes it can be construed as being hypocritical however, it did work and even more poignantly, you claim Guilliman had more power than Horus Lupercal post Heresy, yet he did not waver or become greedy or fall in any way, shape or form unlike his brother. Does that not sum up Guilliman?

As for your argument for Dorn as Warmaster post Emperors ascension, we all know how stubborn Dorn was, he would've drove the struggling Imperium to it's knees seeking revenge.

Post Heresy the Imperium needed Guilliman, and he was as pure as you can get, do you really think he would relish the position of power at the price which it cost?


----------



## Frederick Destroyer (Jul 28, 2009)

It doesn't matter whether Super Smurf did the right thing or not. The imperium is about following orders, not doing the right thing. Eisenhorn saved lives by using a daemon, but since he wasn't allowed to use a daemon he did the "wrong" thing. 

"Innocence proves nothing" sums up the idea: you must put orders above the greater good, you must put the edicts of people millions of miles away above what would be the best thing to do. I really didn't write that eloquently enough, but I assume yuo get my point.

So....The EMP said "Dorn is the leader" and Papa-Smurf took leadership. Whether he did the right thing or not means nothing, that he disobeyed golden toilet boy means he is a heretic. If it weren't for the fact that the emp was almost dead, I'm sure he'd come off the crapper and bitch-slap Guiltyman himself.

Well, that last part is just what I want to have happen, but anyways...


----------



## trog (Apr 6, 2009)

Also Guilliman nearly started another civil war (post heresy, pre Iron cage incident). Guilliaman finished hes little book and told he's brothers what to do, Dorn,Vulkan,Khan & russ all opposed it (russ goin so far as calling Guilliman a coward!). Guilliaman didn't like this & said if they didn't comply he'd make them. it wasn't till after the iron cage when Dorn got saved by Guilliman and after losing half he's legion in the fight that the others kind of relented. So REALLY he's more a Tyrant than a Userper! smurfs stink uke: cal the Inqusition


----------



## Brother Subtle (May 24, 2009)

Damn you hate the ultrasmurfs!


----------



## trog (Apr 6, 2009)

kind of with a passion :biggrin: also the history of the legendary stolling artifacts of the gautlets of ultma (taken after the heresy from a hero of one of the fallin legions) and the fact if he's succesour (Marenus Calger) calls any Ultramarine decendent, they are expected to jump up kiss hes arse and help. so it's easy to see if Guilliman came back he could intergrate them back to a legion size with each chapter being seperate yet under Guillimans direct call. He set up for the long run known in time most other legion gene seed would dwindel while he's would prosper. So when he comes back he could beat down all opposition and do what horus couldn't.


----------



## Aryx (Nov 6, 2008)

I've read afew posts stating that Dorn would've broke the Imperium hell bent on revenge. Would that have been a bad thing? First, he was given command by the Big E, perhaps for the above stated reason, revenge! Second, if he would have poured the remaining loyalist legions into an all out war with chaos, who knows, the Imperium might have rid itself of the heretic legions and not be at constent war with them now! I think Guilliman, seeing his legion at nearly full strength, thought two things. First, shit if we go to war, since my guys are all here, we are going in first. And second, well I got more guys then they do, they should listen to me! He saw his opportunity and took it. What an ass!


----------



## fungusyak (Jul 26, 2008)

Plus dorn would probobly have realised that if he instigated yet another civil war it would have probobly finished of the imperium. By the way, the dark angels had just suffered a civil war of their own and were in no position to challange the ultramarines.


----------



## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Frederick Destroyer said:


> It doesn't matter whether Super Smurf did the right thing or not. The imperium is about following orders, not doing the right thing. Eisenhorn saved lives by using a daemon, but since he wasn't allowed to use a daemon he did the "wrong" thing.
> 
> "Innocence proves nothing" sums up the idea: you must put orders above the greater good, you must put the edicts of people millions of miles away above what would be the best thing to do. I really didn't write that eloquently enough, but I assume yuo get my point.
> 
> ...


I think you're missing the point of the Emperor. He was working for the good of the species. Dorn didn't he took it too personally, Guilliman was working on the same wavelength as the Big E.


----------



## Fungus (Jul 17, 2009)

It doesnt matter whether or not Guillamin guillamin done the right thing but when writing his book he had help in tactics from other primarchs. (vulkan for tunnel fighting dorn for forts and sieges) and russ probably had more tactics in there than papa smurf, but only guillimin got the credit because he said onle he wrote it without help:angry: and then forced others to follow it. the legions that opposed it were either in the salamanders case nearly obliterated, completely mauled after prospero or or didn't have enough men to oppose the smurfs.


----------



## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

Coder59 said:


> I doubt he was a usurper, it seems he was more motivated by the long view of what was needed by the Imperium.
> 
> It also seems likely that he was the only one with the ability to actually take reigns of the Imperium at that time. Think about it, Ferrus and Sanguinius were dead, Vulkan had vanished, Corax was busy trying to rebuild his legion, Lion had vanished and The Khan and Russ were not in any way suitable for ruling such a vast Empire. And Dorn was absolutely consumed with greif and only capale of thinking of Revenge. That really only leaves Guilliman as the only person with enough power and ability to take command of the Imperium.
> 
> It's the same with the Legions. The Fists, The Blood Angels and the White Scars were battered and bloody after the battle at Terra. The Dark Angels had been battered by their Civil War and the their war against I think The Night Lords. The Wolves were hammered by their battles at Prospero and against the Alpha Legion. The others were all smashed into dust by the dropsite massacre. If you think about the Ultramarines were the only Legion with enough strength to actually do ANYTHING in the aftermath of the heresy.


Saying that Dorn was only capable of revenge seems a bit hastey to me. 

Remember, it was Dorn that saved the Emperium from another civil war by playing his cards quietly. When He, Vulkan and Khan openly opposed the Second founding, it was clear that Guilliman was ready to start another war to see his will done. It was Dorn who convinced Vulkan and Khan to relent and abide by the new Codex Astartes, and it probably the reason that the two primarchs left to pursue their own agendas without Guilliman's interference. 

In a way, Dorn displays that his is the level head and the Guilliman was mad enough to kill his brother to it his way. Dorn was the ONLY qualified leader, and Guilliman's actions cost the Imperium two of its greatest primarchs.


----------



## Death Shroud (Mar 1, 2008)

I can easily imagine Guilliman seizing the opportunity to mold the Imperium into his vision. Although we haven't really seen anything of Guilliman in the fiction I imagine him as a man who has noble intentions and is an expert social planner (his organisation skills are proved by the size of his legion and the fact that he invested time and effort into rebuilding the societies he conquered). 
I see his negative points as being unwavering in his own sense of self belief to the point of arrogance, a control freak and power hungry.

The fact that he tried to impose his organisational beliefs on his own brothers suggests some pretty egotistical behaviour. The parallels between the Ultramarines and Romans would indicate a very Julius Caesar-like figure.


----------



## Fungus (Jul 17, 2009)

Guillimin the new Caesar i have no problem with that, i mean look what happened to Caesar, he was assassinated by his most trusted advisors, so if thats the case then i want front row seats to Guillimins assassination:grin:







Whats the difference between Huron and Guillimin?... Huron admits hes a tyrant


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I don't recall Guiliman ever trying to force the Codex on anyone, or threatening to start a civil war. It was an Imperial Navy ship that fired on the Fists (it may have been another Legion who were fired upon, I'm not too sure), not other Astartes. It was this that showed those Primarchs who were against the splitting of the Legions that the rest of the Imperium was afraid of them and the power they held, convincong them that Guilliman was right.
Those who point out that Guilliman took power from Dorn; well, Dorn WAS all about revenge and leading his Legion into war-for-absolution, post-Siege. Until after the Iron Cage, Dorn had no thought for anyone outside the Fists. Guilliman took control and made the High Lords feel that it wasn't needed to wipe out the remaining Astartes 'just to be on the safe side', whilst, simultaneously, holding the Imperium together as the traitors were scoured away. When all of this was done, he gave back control. He walked away and took back control of a VASTLY reduced Legion. Guilliman gave up the most- the Imperium and the largest Legion. No fluff allows for Guilliman to be any sort of usurper.
So there!

GFP


----------



## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> I don't recall Guiliman ever trying to force the Codex on anyone, or threatening to start a civil war. It was an Imperial Navy ship that fired on the Fists (it may have been another Legion who were fired upon, I'm not too sure), not other Astartes. It was this that showed those Primarchs who were against the splitting of the Legions that the rest of the Imperium was afraid of them and the power they held, convincong them that Guilliman was right.
> Those who point out that Guilliman took power from Dorn; well, Dorn WAS all about revenge and leading his Legion into war-for-absolution, post-Siege. Until after the Iron Cage, Dorn had no thought for anyone outside the Fists. Guilliman took control and made the High Lords feel that it wasn't needed to wipe out the remaining Astartes 'just to be on the safe side', whilst, simultaneously, holding the Imperium together as the traitors were scoured away. When all of this was done, he gave back control. He walked away and took back control of a VASTLY reduced Legion. Guilliman gave up the most- the Imperium and the largest Legion. No fluff allows for Guilliman to be any sort of usurper.
> So there!
> 
> GFP


Well said. It is amusing when chaos fans try to paint the loyalist primarchs in the worst light they can.


----------



## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> I don't recall Guiliman ever trying to force the Codex on anyone, or threatening to start a civil war. It was an Imperial Navy ship that fired on the Fists (it may have been another Legion who were fired upon, I'm not too sure), not other Astartes. It was this that showed those Primarchs who were against the splitting of the Legions that the rest of the Imperium was afraid of them and the power they held, convincong them that Guilliman was right.
> Those who point out that Guilliman took power from Dorn; well, Dorn WAS all about revenge and leading his Legion into war-for-absolution, post-Siege. Until after the Iron Cage, Dorn had no thought for anyone outside the Fists. Guilliman took control and made the High Lords feel that it wasn't needed to wipe out the remaining Astartes 'just to be on the safe side', whilst, simultaneously, holding the Imperium together as the traitors were scoured away. When all of this was done, he gave back control. He walked away and took back control of a VASTLY reduced Legion. Guilliman gave up the most- the Imperium and the largest Legion. No fluff allows for Guilliman to be any sort of usurper.
> So there!
> 
> GFP


My objections crumble in the face of this reasoned argument. However my essential problem with Gulliman is that he isn't badass like dorn or sanguinis.


----------



## Fungus (Jul 17, 2009)

Guilliman actually did force it upon other primarchs, basically saying that if they didnt take up the codex he would make them. im pretty sure at one point that he threatened them that he would brand them heretics if they didnt do what he said.:angry:


----------



## Fungus (Jul 17, 2009)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> I don't recall Guiliman ever trying to force the Codex on anyone, or threatening to start a civil war. It was an Imperial Navy ship that fired on the Fists (it may have been another Legion who were fired upon, I'm not too sure), not other Astartes. It was this that showed those Primarchs who were against the splitting of the Legions that the rest of the Imperium was afraid of them and the power they held, convincong them that Guilliman was right.
> Those who point out that Guilliman took power from Dorn; well, Dorn WAS all about revenge and leading his Legion into war-for-absolution, post-Siege. Until after the Iron Cage, Dorn had no thought for anyone outside the Fists. Guilliman took control and made the High Lords feel that it wasn't needed to wipe out the remaining Astartes 'just to be on the safe side', whilst, simultaneously, holding the Imperium together as the traitors were scoured away. When all of this was done, he gave back control. He walked away and took back control of a VASTLY reduced Legion. Guilliman gave up the most- the Imperium and the largest Legion. No fluff allows for Guilliman to be any sort of usurper.
> So there!
> 
> GFP


he gave up nothing while hes legion were at home defending themselves the other legions were being ravaged and he said they would be labelled heretics if they didn't follow his book and he would rout them from the imperium with the least battered most numerous legion so not only is he a usurper hes a coward who would take others glory for himself. Thus proving russ right.










What's the difference between Guilliman and Huron?... Huron admits he's a tyrant.:laugh:


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Where does Guilliman say any of this? Saying the Ultras where at defending their home during the Heresy is correct. I can't see how this is being held against them. Horus knows the Legion is huge and so sends them as far away as he can; a good move. He lets Lorgar have his way, the Word Bearers ambushing the boys in blue at Calth; a good move on Lorgar's part. The WB disable the most part of the Us fleet, scattering what's left all over the system and stranding the Astartes on-world; what more would you expect from Lorgar?
Guilliman, stuck in orbit, keeps control and brings what's left of his fleet back from the dead to fight off the WBs. On-world, the fight is brutal until the Ultras fight off Lorgar's boys. At this point the Siege of Terra is over. How has Guilliman done anything wrong? He followed orders from Horus, whom he had no reason to think was a traitor, and when he was betrayed and stranded, he and his troops fought impossible odds and still won.
After the Heresy, when the Imperium could still have collapsed, Guilliman stood up to the task. Ruling Ultramar had given him the experiance he needed to help the High Lords as they took control. He split his Legion, still the largest even after the losses at Calth, again and again, sending them to all parts of a burning Imperium. The splitting of the Legions was the only way for him to keep the Astartes alive. The Imperial Navy opened fire on the Fists, Dorn leading the faction of Loyal Primarchs who were refusing to split their Legion; this gave Dorn the spur to see what Guilliman was getting at and consented to the move to Chapters.
As for the Codex, this includes huge amounts from ALL of the great warriors of the Great Crusade and earlier. All of the Primarchs have large sections in it that they have inspired and written. Even after the Heresy, Guilliman left Perturabo's teaching about siege warfare in. The Codex IS NOT Guilliman's work alone- it is more like the Tactica Imperialis, a distillation of the knowledge of war from an Astartes point of view.
This bashing of Guilliman disregards everything we know about him from the fluff we have. His character was one of loyalty and honour, of immense political skill fused with a gift for war. These are all traits shared by the Primarchs, but, in the after math of the Heresy, Guilliman knew how to operate the levers of power, knew how to get people talking, working and, most importantly, trusting, again. And, and I can't see how this is always ignored, he walks away from leading the Imperium. He doesn't gain anything from it, Ultramar was already a Protectorate, yet he gives power back to the High Lords and takes control of 1000 Astartes when he used to control up to 250,000. If someone can find fluff that says Guiliman did try to take control, but was ousted, then fair enough. Until then, usurpers don't relinquish power voluntarily.

GFP


----------



## Snowy (Jul 11, 2009)

Giant Fossil Penguin. I salute you.

with that, there must be no way to say he is a Uspurer


----------



## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

I must confess, Giant Fossil Penguin has a point. Tyrants don't tend to give up power. However, had any other sizable chapter rebelled against the ultramarines, Guilliman would only need say the word, and on/all of the other offshots of his legion would have come running. And also, about him giving up power, he "declared" himself like the Grand High Lord, or something didn't he? Essentially giving him control over the ENTIRE Imperium. That doesn't sound like giving up a lot of power to me! However I salute GFP for giving a organized argument that is hard to fault. P.S. I the intrest of being unbiased, I have started to collect Daemonhunters now, and so like and dislike the Imperium at the same time. How do I change that on my profile thingy? Thanks guys


----------



## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

This whole thing about Guilliman retaining the loyalty of his off shoots seems off. Guilliman had no reason to want to take power other then in the time of great need. He and the Ultramarines, with help from his fellow Primarchs and their legions that were capable of fighting, held the Imperium together after the Heresy. He gave his allies time to regroup and rearm and held the Imperium together. Then, when the time came, he gave up the power he held and returned to being a Primarch. 

YES his successor chapters were still loyal to him, but so to were the successor chapters of his brothers, and 8 of them verse one of them, having had time to return to combat effectiveness, the other chapters would have been able to take him. Had he wanted to usurp from anyone, he would have done it when his brothers had NO CHANCE of beating him. Instead, he did what was neccesary, as did his fellow primarchs, in the end. 

He took emergency power, saved the Imperium, then handed it back to the Lord of Terra before heading off to see to the dismantling of his own legion into successor chapters. 

Only true usurper of the Heresy failed.


----------



## Fungus (Jul 17, 2009)

yes he gave up some power but not alot of it dividing his legion into several successor chapters, but he can still call on them if need be and since something like 70% (i think) are derived from the ultramarines he could amass a force larger than the forces that horus had and overthrow the imperium itself. his legion were the least affected by the heresy anyway, look at some of the other chapters, salamanders have never recovered after being nearly decimated at the dropsite massacre. Id like to see his brilliant tactics there. the raven guard suffered similarly but since their initiation was quicker they recovered...eventually. the iron hands im scratchy on but i think they suffered similarly. and if Guilliman was so brilliant why didn't he see what was happening if he would exploit any mistake horus made he would jump at, seems to me that if he scrutinised horus that much surely he would have sussed something out wouldn't he. and maybe the jealous primarchs (granted) could have backed off horus he may not have started conversing with chaos. but Guilliman only wrote it after the heresy _after_ the emperor was placed on the Golden throne. tried to force his will on others. seems like a usurper way of doing things.


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Fungus, mate, that is the sound of a dead horse being flogged. Why would Guilliman have any notion of Horus being a traitor? No-one else did, not even the big-E himself. As for fighting on Istvaan V, it was 3 Legions versus 5, there was really only going to be one outcome, no matter who was fighting. 
That there are a lot of Ultrs successors, well, yes, if they all got together that might be able to overthrow the Imperium But so could the successors of the other Legions if the joined forces. The Sallies were mauled at Istvaan V, but now, 10,000 years later, there are most definitely successors; we don't know much about them becuase the fluff has never been published. And all of the successors of the original Legions would retain a devotion to the Primarch that is their gene-father.
Horus never started turning to Chaos because of the jealousy of his brothers. If that had been the chase then he would never of wanted Angron to join him. Guilliman thought he should have been Warmaster, but when Horus was chosen, Guilliman offered nothing but support and followed all of his orders, offering any advice that he thought might help his brother. In comparison, Angron raved and howled at the injustice of Horus being made Warmaster and made it very clear that he thought it was a travesty.
For the last time, none of the fluff that is published can be read as if Guilliman was trying to take control on a permanenet basis. He did what was asked of him. He did what was needed, wether it angered his brother Primarchs or not, with the long-term future of the Imperium uppermost in his mind as opposed to trying to consolidate any power he may have had. And then he GAVE IT ALL UP! Sorry to shout, but he walked away. Whatever happened before that, at the end of it all he gave it up; this alone negates the argument that he was a usurper. If someone finds some fluff that supports Guilliman being a bad-guy (and I mean official GW fluff), then I'd really love to hear it.
The big-G is a good guy now. This doesn't mean that the future HH novels won't make him less sympathetic. But until then, my point(s) stand. Il Penguo, out!

GFP


----------



## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

If I could give you more rep GFP, I would.


----------



## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> Fungus, mate, that is the sound of a dead horse being flogged. Why would Guilliman have any notion of Horus being a traitor? No-one else did, not even the big-E himself. As for fighting on Istvaan V, it was 3 Legions versus 5, there was really only going to be one outcome, no matter who was fighting.
> That there are a lot of Ultrs successors, well, yes, if they all got together that might be able to overthrow the Imperium But so could the successors of the other Legions if the joined forces. The Sallies were mauled at Istvaan V, but now, 10,000 years later, there are most definitely successors; we don't know much about them becuase the fluff has never been published. And all of the successors of the original Legions would retain a devotion to the Primarch that is their gene-father.
> Horus never started turning to Chaos because of the jealousy of his brothers. If that had been the chase then he would never of wanted Angron to join him. Guilliman thought he should have been Warmaster, but when Horus was chosen, Guilliman offered nothing but support and followed all of his orders, offering any advice that he thought might help his brother. In comparison, Angron raved and howled at the injustice of Horus being made Warmaster and made it very clear that he thought it was a travesty.
> For the last time, none of the fluff that is published can be read as if Guilliman was trying to take control on a permanenet basis. He did what was asked of him. He did what was needed, wether it angered his brother Primarchs or not, with the long-term future of the Imperium uppermost in his mind as opposed to trying to consolidate any power he may have had. And then he GAVE IT ALL UP! Sorry to shout, but he walked away. Whatever happened before that, at the end of it all he gave it up; this alone negates the argument that he was a usurper. If someone finds some fluff that supports Guilliman being a bad-guy (and I mean official GW fluff), then I'd really love to hear it.
> ...


I agree with 99% of what you've said, and although I disagree with your position overall on Guilliman, you make a good case for him.

The way I see it, the argument about him gaining power from his coup or not seems moot, sinse what power he may have gained was minor, and existed only in numerical superiority. Guilliman's legion was divided by the Codex Astartes just like the other legions, and although he retained a sort of grand power over his successor chapters, the same could probably be said of all the surviving primarchs at the time. If the Lion were around, or Dorn, or Vulkan or whoever, their chapter, and every chapter of the second founding on down would have seen him as a father-grandfather figure and likely rallyed behind them if the situation arose. 

In this way, I don't see Guilliman as gaining much from the his scheme, save for his own personal satisfaction. 

IF his had wanted to be warmaster, he essentially got what he wanted at that point. IF he has plotted to take a measure of control he succeeded in that as well. But there will never be any solid proof for either account. I choose to take my side in the agrument becouse all the primarchs in the story suffer from debilitatingly strong angst and emotional instabilty, with a few exceptions. In a world of fantasy where you meet a stranger for first time, and know beyond knowing that his is not only your father (clone engineer) but also the Immortal God Emperor of the Human Race, it strikes me as odd that a primarch could conceivably fall from his grace at all, even with the intervention of the ruinous powers. 

The entire HH was the result of their inner weaknesses, their human qualities being EXTREME. Lorgar needed something to worship, and when the Emperor renounced his religion he turned to chaos and dragged Horus down with him, and thus half of his brothers... its the human weakness that makes them the characters they are, no matter how great a tactition, or warrior they may be, and Guilliman is no exception, he character was clearly painted to be jealous of Horus's title. You can draw your own conclusions from there.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I hearing Guilliman Never forced the remaining loyatist conforming to his book. Thats BS, all the Fluff say Russ was the last to conform and he was threaten to be labbled as a heretic and thus Russ sort of conform. Thats why Salamanders and Space Wolves really hate other SM Chapters dealing with innocent people being burn for fighting deamons and knowing of their existance. Guilliman was a punk and he played a little role in the Crusade. People say he was as good as Horus. BS again, Legions like Fulgrim brought the impossible to beat Laer to heel. SWs did alot on the far flung reaches as Huron Ordered. 
Word Bearers did alot in the crusade and conqured alot of themselves. WEs also did alot of purging of life from Systems. Sanguise and Magnus were place higher than Guillimans sorry ass by the Emperor. So Guilliman was only so awsome cause he had the largest Legion at the end. The others were fighting all out and Guilliman did little. I dont see where that makes him awsome.


----------



## Deus Mortis (Jun 20, 2009)

Regardless, if he had have been an usurper he would have kept the power indefinitely. I must confess I have a major dislike of the Ultramarines, purely on the grounds that they seem to get all the good updates before everyone else! However, I think Giant Fossil Penguin has a near unflappable point, and I can't find a point that anyone else has raised that has proved him wrong. For that alone +2 rep mate, well done!


----------



## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

People hate the poster boy and someone has to be the poster boy. Still, I hate the Ultramarines too, damn those poster boys! 

Every legion did something for the crusade. Guilliman was a tactical genius and his legion was massive. He conquered just as much(techinically more, but I'm discounting the fact his legion was much bigger then everyone else's) worlds as his brothers. He was upset he didn't get chosen to be warmaster, as were several of the Primarchs. Having daddy pick favorites is never easy, but he did as commanded, just like everyone else. Where your getting the idea he was a useless git, I'm really not sure. 

However, as for the actual purpose of this thread, I'd say that Giant Fossil Penguin has solid ground, and unless someone has something to shake it up with...


----------



## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

I thought I had mentioned this before, but I must have skimmed over it.

It is true that tyrants don't _generally_ give up the power they've taken. But then these are not general circumstances at all, are they? I stated earlier that Guilliman didn't realy even gain that much "power" through his actions in the first place, sinse his legion was equally effected. Either way, its moot sinse I don't think he was trying to usurp any power to begin with... what I think he was doing, is being calous becouse he couldn't deal with not being chosen as warmaster.

With the heresy over and the Imperium unwilling to simply elect another warmaster (at least at that point), Guilliman, even though he was elligable, was not going to be chosen, and that ate him up inside. He resented that fact that he would never be able to lead his brothers and so he made damn sure that none of them would. His actions weren't in the best interest of the Imperium and he knews it, so did Dorn, so did Vulkan, so did Russ, and for that matter so did Khan. 

When Guilliman threatened his own brothers with open war and the accusation of treason, he essentially ousted them. They reluctantly agreed and then left to fight the fight on their terms, without their jealous, upstart brother. 

He never usurped any power, just made sure no one else would, and cost the Imperium three of its finest heros. Heros who could be leading the Imperium to victory even now. 

Usurper? Maybe not. 
Tyrant? Absolutely.


----------



## Atsuno11 (Jul 21, 2008)

The problem with that, Prince, is very simple. I have yet to see fluff that states such. All I have found is that Guilliman, after fighting tirelessly, and being "everywhere at once" took actions that would prevent anyone from doing what Horus was capable of. Does this mean he didn't have his own personal agenda in doing so, I don't know. 

However, it seems more likely that, were it different situations, what you says could be true. Perhaps he would have made damn sure no one else would gain as much power as Horus out of jealousy but not now. After all that happened, I can't see the man, Primarch I should say, that fought furiously too keep the Imperium together acting spitefully against his brothers if it meant the death of the Imperium later on. 

Until someone can give me proof that, with all that happened, Guilliman would put his jealousy before the better of the Imperium, then I will continue to fight for him. He took action that outraged his brothers to make damn sure no one could ever cause something as atrocious as the Horus Heresy.

Tyrants don't risk themselves for something they don't want others too have and if Prince is right, he certainly didn't want anyone else to lead the Imperium.


----------



## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

I don't think there is much fluff to suport my argument, I'll be honest. To me personally, the story simply makes the most sense that way.

If what had happened was truly in the best interest of the Imperium, why would Dorn, Vulkan, Russ, and Khan have so strongly opposed it? And why would that opposition drive Guilliman to threaten his brothers the way he did?

Dorn was the Emperor's go-to-guy after Horus let him down becouse the Empeor trusted him to make the right calls. Russ had a gift for strategy as did Vulkan. Collectively, every remaining loyalist primarch had decided that what Guilliman wanted was not in the Imperiums best interest, or these tactically gifted men would not have opposed it. For Guilliman to go against their wishes shows that he thought himself superior, but that he didn't respect the Emperor's orders and wasn't going to listen to Dorn.

The rest of the story finishes itself for me, though I guess it won't be officially resolved ever, and I honestly enjoy the fact that people can see it in more than one way, it makes the story that much more energizing for me.


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I'm perusing my fluffarium, trying to find where I read about the arguments splitting the loyalist Primarchs during the period when Guilliman was proposing the splitting of the Legions. As I recall, none were particularly happy about it, but there was an almost equal split amongst those who agreed and those who didn't. I'll keep my eye out; I'll have to cos it's going to start bugging me!
This is the beauty of the 40k background. We all read the same things but apportion different motivations to those in the stories and have cool debates. The only thing we need to do is get rid of the extremist OMG Ultras/Guilliman TEH SuXXorz11DidNoTHing11!! This anti-Ultras thing is starting to make any fun debates that involve them in any way, quite difficult. People who haven't bothered to read the fluff spout nonsense and we go nowhere.
As the C:SM talks about the Codex being an incredibly important treatise that over half of the Chapters follow, it stands to reason that we have the Chapter that best eptitomises this as the main focus of the book. And so the Ultramarines are the 'poster boys'. If they used the SWs as the main focus, then it would make a mockery of the Codex meaning anything. And then everone would hate the SWs for being 'poster boys'. It's fashionable to hate the mainstream. How conformist!!

GFP


----------



## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> This anti-Ultras thing is starting to make any fun debates that involve them in any way, quite difficult. People who haven't bothered to read the fluff spout nonsense and we go nowhere.


I hope that wasn't a pointed statement at me becouse... ouch.

I have personally read a small handful of books regarding 40k fluff, all of which are from BL publishing. I enjoy reading they're not the best source of fluff for me, and for a number of reasons:

Firstly, when GW publishes a codex, its a collaborate effort and they go to great lengths to ensure that what is printed in them is worded the way they would like. When it comes to the books in the BL collection, the general plot my be concidered cannonical, and even the dates/times/characters, but down to the exact wording is hard to say becouse the authors may not have had the same vision for the world that the creators do.

It is for this reason that 90% of the sources I cite here are from the various codecies, and I try not pull too much from the books. Sometimes I do, but I try to keep it to a minimum.


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Sorry, Prince, mate; that statement certainly wasn't aimed at you! My apologies for any implication. Your argument's are reasoned and are based around looking at the fluff as published and inferring from that your own POV. The folk I'm referring to (and there are a couple of examples earlier-on in this thread, no names) seem to care nothing for what is actually out there, info-wise, and just scatter-shot the interwebtubez with 'anything Ultramarine is bad'. 
It started with the Ultra-backlash, which seemed to have started before I re-engaged with the hobby, but is getting worse as it becomes fashionable, and is now spreading from just disliking the 'poster-boy' blue boys to encompass everything about them. Differing viewpoints are to be encouraged and enlarged on- the hobby will only get stronger as more people talk and engage with each other. But derailing the background from what it is just because people don't like GW liking their favoured Chapter gets us nowhere. And you, Prince, don't do this.
I was going to add to my last post, before my bottom began to ache from typing with it, that I wonder if Guilliman's role will be changed in the HH books to come. We've seen Jonson try to use the Heresy to bargain himself 'up' to the position of Warmaster. Maybe, if the books ever go that far, we'll see a different complection on Guilliman's actions; it could be, as you posted up top, that he WAS eaten-up with the fact that he mightn't get to lead the massed, loyalist Legions and so made sure that no other Primarch ever could. Maybe he will be shown to be trying to take permanent control, only to be toppled by the High Lords, or even his brothers. Whilst the past doesn't make him a usurper (at least from my view), there's nothing to say that the future wont. You gotta love the grimdark!!

GFP


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

And in breaking news, I actually found some useful info! This is from the C:Black Templars, and heavily paraphrased:
Dorn refuses to spit his Legion, saying it will impact his ability to serve the Emperor, calling Guilliman a coward for not being present on Terra during the siege (ooh, low blow!); Guilliman calls Dorn a rebel for refusing to follow the dictates of the Codex (and my apologies to, I think, Fungus, who said Guilliman said this and I disagreed).
The two Primarchs are stubborn and will not give in to each other. Leman Russ and Vulkan (seems he hasn't disappeared yet) support Dorn in not wanting to split their Legion's, Coraz and the Great Khan suppport Guilliman. The argument threatens to spill over into war; the Imperial Fists Strike Cruiser Terrible Angel is violently persecuted by the Imperial Navy for stheir supposed Heresies and it seems that a second civil war is all but assured. But, seing this, Dorn relents and splits his Legion into three. 
No mention of the Iron Cage here, so it might be before, but from the other IF stuff out there, I think this would be after wards, once Dorn has burnt off some of the guilt about the big-E being mortally wounded.

GFP


----------



## Ork_boss (Sep 30, 2009)

Tell Me if this is ridicolous MAYBE the Ultramarines Were working with the Chaos And guilliman Is the Usurper!


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

Ork_Boss, if you can explain the fluff in a way that shows the Ultras as allies to Chaos during the Heresy, I'll be really impressed. I'm not being sarcastic when I say this; it is plain that even when we read the same things, people will come up with wildly differing interpretations of what has actually been said. So, could you show us how the fluff might support Chaos Ultras?
Whilst I don't think the fluff supports this view (but I really do want you to show me how it does), the fact(!) is, after the HH, the Ultras are loyalist to the Imperium beyond all question and have no deep-seated guilt about consorting with Chaos. Contrast the Dark Angels: half of the Legion seems to fall to Chaos (to be incredibly simplistic with the description) and, even more than 10,000 years later, the Chapter and its fellow second Founding offshoots are wracked by guilt and terrified that they will lose their honour and be cast out as traitors, should the Imperium ever find out what happened. Surely if the Ultras had joined with Horus they, too, would be filled with guilt? I'm looking forward to your fluff-dissection, _Boss!

GFP


----------



## scolatae (Aug 25, 2008)

Giant fossil peguin you are right any debate involving them inevitibly leads to ati ultra rants and i'm no exception, you need to understand that the reason tht people hate them is that they are depicted as better than the other legions and chapters, this would be alright if the legion had any charecter or interesting fluff but they have been neglected by GW with only a half-arsed attempt to affiliate them with ancient greece and rome. People also resent the ridiculas power of Marnaeus Calgar. So I respect your defence of the ultra's but would point out there are good reasons that people dislike them so.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> As the C:SM talks about the Codex being an incredibly important treatise that over half of the Chapters follow, it stands to reason that we have the Chapter that best eptitomises this as the main focus of the book. And so the Ultramarines are the 'poster boys'. If they used the SWs as the main focus, then it would make a mockery of the Codex meaning anything. And then everone would hate the SWs for being 'poster boys'. It's fashionable to hate the mainstream. How conformist!!


(Raises Hand High) Ohhh thats Me, :laugh:!!!



scolatae said:


> Giant fossil peguin you are right any debate involving them inevitibly leads to ati ultra rants and i'm no exception, you need to understand that the reason tht people hate them is that they are depicted as better than the other legions and chapters, this would be alright if the legion had any charecter or interesting fluff but they have been neglected by GW with only a half-arsed attempt to affiliate them with ancient greece and rome. People also resent the ridiculas power of Marnaeus Calgar. So I respect your defence of the ultra's but would point out there are good reasons that people dislike them so.



This is exactly why I hate the Ultras. Even there Name is so Unoriginal and quite childish tell truth. The Ultra......marines. Thats lame. The bit about all this Ultras are better than every other Chapter or Legion is force down our throats as truth is true for that matter. What did Ultras do durring the Heresy? Nothing at all woth mentioning. The Loyaltist DeathGaurd had more of a role during the Ordeal. :taunt: For whatever reason GW thought Ultras as the stupid poster boys are everywhere. I like the fact that THQ made games based on the unkown Blood Ravens. Then theres (thank God) other chapters that are so popular that they're seperate in Model Line and Codex's. Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Black Templar, and Dark Angels are way more enrich chapters and have played pivotal roles in the Imperium against the Orks, Chaos, Nids and Tau. Ultras are famuose for what? Nid hunting mostly. I just dont see the big deal. I like the Crimson Fist Chapter more than any other C:SM Chapter. I think The Ultras could do with a Accident on Macragge. :wink: Just to spice the game up.


----------



## Prince Endymion (Sep 19, 2009)

Warlock in Training said:


> (Raises Hand High) Ohhh thats Me, :laugh:!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've never felt any pressure from the Ultramarines, nor was I given the impression they are better than any other chapters. 

There's a common phrase: Once you reach the top there's nowhere to go but down.

People in todays society all have authority complexes and inately challenge the hierarchy of things. Every culture has a counter culture and aparently the 40k fan base is no exception. 

The Ultras are king of the hill atm, and that means people will try to tear them down. My own personal reasons for disliking them is becouse I interpret the fluff as such, not becouse "everyone else likes them". 

its a pretty juvenile excuse to hate something just to be different or make a statement. I honestly feel that Chaos is more guilty of that - fans to blinded by their bias to listen to logic. But that's clearly just me.


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I don't understand why peole will go on about how GW insists that the Ultras are the Ur-best and no-one is better. The entire counts-as thing is there because other Chapters have heros just as powerful as any Ultramarine. Every Chapter of the Astartes is stuffed with warriors who can, and do, do the things that the Ultras do.
In the C:SM, GW have said that many Chapters look up to the example that the Ultras set. They also talk about some of the heroics that Calgar et al have performed. Nowhere do they then say that these things are exclusive to the Ultramarines. Every Astartes is capable of, and regularly performs, actions that make legends; just because GW doesn't write about them doesn't mean that they haven't happened. Sometimes, as fans, we have to write the fluff for those little-mentioned Chapters. Hell, that's half the fun.
And then, we go back to the 'where were the Ultras during the HH?' Read the fluff. Prince, bang-on, mate. Got it in one.

GFP


----------



## Coder59 (Aug 23, 2009)

scolatae said:


> Giant fossil peguin you are right any debate involving them inevitibly leads to ati ultra rants and i'm no exception, you need to understand that the reason tht people hate them is that they are depicted as better than the other legions and chapters, this would be alright if the legion had any charecter or interesting fluff but they have been neglected by GW with only a half-arsed attempt to affiliate them with ancient greece and rome. People also resent the ridiculas power of Marnaeus Calgar. So I respect your defence of the ultra's but would point out there are good reasons that people dislike them so.


I see where you're coming from with the reasons people hate Ultras but I have a little explanation of why they're depicted like that. 

If you read the background fluff for Guilliman and the Ultramarines in general they come from a very Roman/Greek culture and Guilliman seems to have a lot of the character of various classical leaders such as Themistacles, Leonidus, Alexander and especially Ceaser Augustus. 
A lot of these guys were really ruthless but they were also very altruistic and left their states much better than they found them. We know that Guilliman did the same kind of thing smashing worlds but allways bringing them completely into the Imperium and making sure that they were better off than when he found them. In doing this he was a complete contrast to Horus who used to swoop in smash everything he could and make them submit then leave it to others to bring the world into the imperium. 

As for the Ultramarines being depicted as better than the others I think that's a little bit of a misnomer, I've allways seen them depicted as the most professional of the Marine Chapters acting like a Roman Cohort under a balanced and perceptive leader. We know from history that an army fighting like that will achieve a lot more than a more wild or individualistic army no matter the skill of the individual warriors. 

So in that way I've allways seen the Ultramarines as the Equivilent of the Black Legion and it's kind of strange that you don't see many people complaining about them, and the ridiculous power of Abbadon. Both Legions during the crusade racked up thousands of victorys and both had genius leaders directing them. The main difference is in their post battle follow up, Horus doesn't seem too fussed about the populance of a world he conquers so long as his Legion is ok and he's proved himself once again. Guilliman seems to have been more compassionate and felt more responsible for the people he wasn conquering. 

At the end of the day why is that such a problem for some people? Sure some of the other Primarchs were better warriors or had "Cooler" abilitys but at the end of the day what is wrong with at least four of the Primarchs actually giving a damn for the people that they're out there trying to save? Not every legion can be the World Eaters or the Space Wolves.


----------



## admiraldick (Sep 9, 2008)

this is an interesting thread, i've noticed it a couple of times, but only just got round to reading much of it.

i have to say that the argument to suggest the Guilliman was a usurper is at best flawed. 



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The Emperor makes Rogal Dorn the new Warmaster in all but name prior to the Siege of Terra.


sorry, how much prior? and under what conditions?

the Big E clearly didn't have the options open to him that would have been favourable. i doubt seriously that the Emperor gave Dorn command with anything more than the current war in mind. had Guilliman not be stuck on the otherside of the galaxy, but stood in the Emperor's Palace, would he have been 'crowned' commander-in-cheif in stead?

obviously there is no real way to answer this, so debate is moot. however, what can be said is that the Emperor had his choices limited and was making the best of a bad situation. also, its worth remembering that the Big E did not have infinite precience, he didn't foresee the consequences of his actions in making Horus his champion, so there is no reason to think that under infinitely more strained conditions his foresight would have improved. if given a second chance he might want to change his mind.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> This Second Quote in my opinion kind of sums up the relationship between Horus and Guilliman Post-Ullanor. Guilliman trying to find any weakness in Horus to exploit and then point out that Horus shouldn't be Warmaster.


it is a direct quote from the mouth of the greatest traitor known to the Imperium. it certainly depicts Horus' veiw of the relationship, but it is illogical to assume that he is not biased.

also, its possible to suggest that Guilliman's actions were motivated by his envy of Horus. but its less of a stretch of the imagination to suggest that the reason Guilliman didn't trust Horus was because he was untrustworthy. an assumption that was spectacularly vindicated by the Heresy.

don't get me wrong, we all love a villian, they are just flat out cooler than a hero. however, we shouldn't confuse villiany with heroism.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> And for Guilliman to be compared to The Lion who is obviously far too-arrogant (As we see from 'Fallen Angels') and strongly believes he should of been Warmaster and who is certainly Jealous of Horus also says a lot.


again, it doesn't say much objectively. it says something about Horus' state of mind, assuming that he was telling the truth, but unless we hear genuinly 3rd party opinion we don't have much to go on.

eitherway, i personally would have said that Horus fell, the Lion waivered and Guilliman ever remained loyal to the Imperium. with hindsight i think its clear who would have made the best Warmaster. but that's conjecture.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Now Lets look at this realistically. Following the Heresy; Ok he wrote the Codex Astartes which subsequently split his Legion into many Chapters.


at whose request? did he do it just for a laugh?

i think there is some suggestion that he had written it and petitioned the Imperium to endorse it, but that is a long way from 'trying to usurp power' from the rightful controllers. and, of course, the Codex was agreed with (more or less) by all parties involved. it wasn't forced on anyone.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> It is extremley likely however that he still retained some influence in all of these Sucessor Chapters, and they would have taken commands from him and would have rallied around him if asked, after all he was still their Primarch.


as did all the remaining Primarchs. and the High Lords of Terra. and a whole shed load of other highly respected individuals. Guilliman was not a unique example.



Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> The whole point of the Codex Astartes was to prevent any individual gaining the same amount of power and influence Horus had, thereby reducing the chance of a large-scale rebellion occuring again within the Astartes. The Hypocrisy being that Guilliman himself actually wielded as much if not more power and influence following the Heresy than Horus wielded prior to the Heresy.


that is not an entirely fair argument, mainly because, byeond spliting Legions into Chapters, the exact contents of the Codex Astartes has never been discussed in any GW background. so we really have no idea what exactly the reformations involved were.

thus the only understanding we have of the tome is what we see on the table-top (i.e. the difference between C: SM and other SM codexes, including CSM). what this points us too is smaller units with a larger number of low level officers per marine. there is a much longer chain of command, hence individuals have less scope for acting independently and there are no more personallity cults forming around charasimatic soldiers. also promotions are given fairly and squarely to those who deserve them and not simply to the commander's lackies.

again, its far from clear, but i would hazard a guess to say that the Ultramarines had opperated in this format (or something similar) since before the Heresy, so whilst it might not have been a big change of the boys in blue (other than the colour of their armour), other Legions would likely found that their officers and soldiers alike would have had much less personal freedom. therefore, even if Primarchs had roughly the same level of influence over their former Legionairres (which they didn't because they no longer had command of the fleet nor of the Imperial Army), its quite likely that Guilliman started off with less personal power than the others did anyway.



Giant Fossil Penguin said:


> I don't understand why peole will go on about how GW insists that the Ultras are the Ur-best and no-one is better. The entire counts-as thing is there because other Chapters have heros just as powerful as any Ultramarine. Every Chapter of the Astartes is stuffed with warriors who can, and do, do the things that the Ultras do.


i would have to agree that their isn't much precedent in the background to suggest that the Ultramarines are 'better' than any other Chapter or Legion (they just get talked about most because they in the middle ground). if they are in anyway 'better' than other Chapters it is in a much more abstract way, such as their dogmatic approach to tactics which allows them to be a lot more flexible than other Chapter who focus on one single aspect. this has no real in game effect and makes them a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none, so can easily be trumped by other Chapters, as long as they are competing at only one thing.

if anyone deserves scorn for trying too hard to be 'da beztes!!1!' its the DA, who seem to try and hog all steroetypes to themselves. they're both Chaotic and Loyal, they are Medieval Knights and Native Americans, they spend a lifetime in the saddle and have no home planet, they are the most elite of all heavily armoured troops and also the most elite of all bike mounted troops. generally speaking they are a total conceptual mess, and who anyone can like them is beyond me.


----------



## Warlock in Training (Jun 10, 2008)

I just dont like the Ultra Throat Stuffing, theres no reason for it. Dawn of War games did real well with the unknown Blood Ravens. I find the Soul Drinkers novels better than any Ultra book. Crimson Fist for a little while seem to be popular cause of there battles and cool Pedro Canter rules. Unfortunatly time and again its always the Ultra Smurfs. I hate their blue color scheme and honestly they seem bland to me in most respects becuase they are the nilla of nilla marines. Thats just me. I dont like the Space Wolves being split up when Russ didnt want to be split. The Dark Angels successor Chapters are all Dark Angels under different names so thats cool. Black Templars pretty much told Guillimens law "%@!$# you" which is awsome. The Space wolves still remained very, very large chapter. Only the Blood angels really bowed down the law out of the better chapters. Just how I feel.


----------



## Giant Fossil Penguin (Apr 11, 2009)

I do understand that people would like to read about other Chapters, especially when it comes to writing new codices. However, GW are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They have to write every book as if the person who was reading it had never read anything like before; we, as veterans, have seen it all before and are looking for something new, but a Codex can't really be the place for vast amounts of innovation in fluff.
The Codex also has to introduce the idea of what the Codex Astartes is and what a Codex Chapter is and functions like. If they didn't choose the Ultras, any Chapter they did choose would be almost exactly the same. As it is, the have a ready-made pool of fluff the use for the Ultras, which lends itself to further extension as small bits of new fluff are added per edition. There would be no point in changing the focus Chapter for the C:SM just for the sake of it, we would end up with the exact same end-product, just with the names changed.
I suppose what 'annoys' me* about this topic is that folks seem to be making far too much of such a non-issue. And I'm as guilty of it as anyone, even if I'm coming at it from the other direction. If the Ultras are becoming too visible (for want of a better word), then as hobbyists we should be applying ourselves to the production of quality fluff that concerns other Chapters. GW can only do so much, and we shouldn't expect to be spoon-fed. Was that a rant? I didn't mean it to be, and I hope no-one thinks any of that was aimed at them; it wasn't. 

GFP

*I say annoy. I just can't bring myself to feel THAT strongly about fiction. None of this stuff is worth getting into actual arguments about.


----------

