# Isstvan V Dropsite Massacre



## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Something is bugging me about the whole Isstvan V battle: Since all the legions carried Exterminatus weapons, why didn't they use them instead of using a risky ground assault on prepared fortifications.

The Iron Hand, Raven Guard and Salamanders fleets probably had enough fire power to turn Isstvan into a lava ball so why didn't they do it?

I know the overarching storyline states they didn't but I presumed there must have been some overriding reason why not but I can't find any detail of it in Massacre.

Does anyone else have any thoughts?


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

Even in the days of the Legions, Exterminatus was used as a last resort or for those who greatly displeased the Imperium. They would almost always try to take the planet by conventional methods first. In the case of Isstvan, it could have held strategic importance as well. Certain worlds will never see Exterminatus because they are too valuable for either location, resources or production. It does seem unclear if Isstvan held any value but it must have.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Also consider Ferrus Manus was in charge of the mission, and we know he had a hot temper. And he really wanted to pay Fulgrim back for the serious noogie he had gotten at their last meeting. So with a little goading, he eagerly charges into the fray and as all knows, soon becomming a head shorter because of his recklessness.


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## Creon (Mar 5, 2009)

The other idea is that they may not have wanted to eradicate all the traitor marines. They probably hoped to capture and reintegrate them. 

Also, they were doing well on Istvan III, and probably were overconfident.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Brother Lucian said:


> Also consider Ferrus Manus was in charge of the mission, and we know he had a hot temper. And he really wanted to pay Fulgrim back for the serious noogie he had gotten at their last meeting. So with a little goading, he eagerly charges into the fray and as all knows, soon becomming a head shorter because of his recklessness.


Which totally doesn't fit with the cold calculating person he usually was.


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## Brother Lucian (Apr 22, 2011)

Reaper45 said:


> Which totally doesn't fit with the cold calculating person he usually was.


Hrm? Ferrus have always come off as a rather ill tempered individual.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

The Ferrus Manus thing sounds right but I never understood why Corax agreed to a mission that totally went against the modus operandi of his Legion. The Raven Guard were stealth specialists not assaulting fortification specialists.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

Brother Lucian said:


> Hrm? Ferrus have always come off as a rather ill tempered individual.


I've always understood ferris as being a primarch driven by logic.


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## Old Man78 (Nov 3, 2011)

Ferrus was not reckless he thought he had 6 other legions to back him up, he just wanted to strike hard and fast, which for the intel he had makes perfect sense and s text book astartes. With regards exterminatus not being used, same reason as nukes in the real world so far, mutually assured destruction, remember at the start of the heresy, Horus was full of good intentions and wanted to take over the imperium not destroy it


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## Child-of-the-Emperor (Feb 22, 2009)

For a few reasons:

1) Ferrus Manus had strategic command of the assault and had a personal vendetta against both Fulgrim and Horus.
2) The rebel positions were well entrenched and void-shielded (The survivors of the Isstvan III bombardment proves that such scale weapons are not always conpletley effective).
3) The Imperials did bombard the planet but due to the above reason it had little effect.
4) The Imperials wanted answers, they wanted to know why Horus - the greatest Primarch - had turned on his father's empire.

That's justification enough for me.



zerachiel76 said:


> The Ferrus Manus thing sounds right but I never understood why Corax agreed to a mission that totally went against the modus operandi of his Legion. The Raven Guard were stealth specialists not assaulting fortification specialists.


Ferrus Manus had been given strategic command if the mission. Corax could have either obeyed his brother or left the Iron Hands veterans and Salamanders go it alone. Corax certainly counciled caution though and even retreated from the fighting when the 'loyalist' second wave arrived despite Ferrus refusing to.


Reaper45 said:


> I've always understood ferris as being a primarch driven by logic.


Its a bit of both I think, though his portrayals in the Heresy series have largely made him out to be an idiot unfortunately. It's safe to say that logic had gone out if the window and rage had taken over in the build up to Isstvan V though.


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## Malus Darkblade (Jan 8, 2010)

Child-of-the-Emperor said:


> Its a bit of both I think, though his portrayals in the Heresy series have largely made him out to be an idiot unfortunately. It's safe to say that logic had gone out if the window and rage had taken over in the build up to Isstvan V though.












The first of the loyalists to look down upon the actions of their Primarch?


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Ferrus has been depicted with a eruptive temper. The old Medusan fury.

There's a few reasons for Ferrus's aggressive approach:

1. He had been approached by Fulgrim to betray the Emperor. In his his eyes, and more importantly, in the eyes of his Loyalist brothers, there must have been some sign of disloyalty in Ferrus. Otherwise why would Fulgrim approach Ferrus? Ferrus had to prove himself the dutiful son.

2. There were some tactical implications. The Loyalists were tipped off early by the _Eisenstein_ and Fulgrim's failed offer. Horus's forces (theoretically) did not have the time to regroup and fortify their defenses. The time to strike was now.

Also there was no sign of the Traitor fleet. With complete orbital supremacy, the odds should have been in the Loyalist side.

3. Honor was involved on all sides. _Massacre_ says "This would be no mere bombardment from orbit, no impersonal razing of a world from the cold blackness of space, but an invasion, a scouring. The foe would be met head on, blade-to-blade, the Traitors' blood spilled and punishment delt face-to-face; only by this would the stain of treachery be expunged. Honour demanded confrontation..."

4. Then there was the need to be absolutely sure the Traitor Primarchs fell. Dorn "had ordered the Emperor's wayward sons dead for their crimes and nothing more than their broken bodies would surrfice as evidence of the deed."

5. Ironically the reasons given for the heavy-handedness of the attack on Istvaan III also works for the Loyalist attack on Istvaan V. There had to be an emphatic gesture that showed the futility of rebellion. There must be no doubt that anyone who turned from the Emperor's light would be delt in the most harshest of ways. 

6. The Loyalists didn't fully understand what happened to their erstwhile brothers. There were theories that Horus was simply suffering a mental breakdown or was under the influence of some alien being. I think some people hoped that there was a convenient excuse. The First Son had not fallen...just stumbled.

That's not something you can discover from low orbit shooting off virus bombs.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

hailene said:


> Ferrus has been depicted with a eruptive temper. The old Medusan fury.
> 
> There's a few reasons for Ferrus's aggressive approach:
> 
> ...


I disagree, obliterating a planet from orbit is a good way of telling people don't fuck with us.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Reaper45 said:


> I disagree, obliterating a planet from orbit is a good way of telling people don't fuck with us.


You didn't have to quote my entire post for one sentence .

Anyway, it's more than just impersonal death. That's over in a split second. This is more than just extinguishing a threat. This is about punishment. 

Also it is a sign of strength. Sure, they could blow up the planet. Rupture the core. Annihilate the surface, whatever.

But this is a demonstration of martial strength. Not only would the Traitors be wiped it, but they would be categorically defeated. It wasn't that they were snuffed out before they had a chance to throw a punch, but the fact that they never had the ability to even fight back.

It was supposed to be the stomp downs of all stomp downs.

And in a way, it was.


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## Archon Dan (Feb 6, 2012)

The Imperium still fights in a similar way with regards to using traditional combat as punishment. Sure it's easy to raze a planet. But that doesn't prove you are strong. It doesn't show that you can defend your home. It just shows you can be completely callous and obliterate somebody else's home. 

But as far as punishment goes, a quick death is merciful. Obliterating billions in the blink of an eye doesn't prolong their suffering. But going "door-to-door" and stabbing every person one-on-one shows ruthless efficiency and eventually creates an environment of suffering caused by fear. Though fear tactics may be useless against Space Marines. But I'm sure the tactic works well on standard Imperium worlds.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Archon Dan said:


> Though fear tactics may be useless against Space Marines.


I don't think it was about fear. As you said, Space Marines shrug off most fear.

I think the point was to show the futility of rebellion. "Yeah, sure, you can TRY, but you're just going to end up dead. It's not worth it, so don't even bother."


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

hailene said:


> I don't think it was about fear. As you said, Space Marines shrug off most fear.
> 
> I think the point was to show the futility of rebellion. "Yeah, sure, you can TRY, but you're just going to end up dead. It's not worth it, so don't even bother."


The thing is the legions thrived on honor. By wiping them out from orbit shows that they won't get their fair battle.

Everything horus did was to manipulate his brothers. He told Russ was he needed to hear in order to get him to burn prospero, same with angron, petrebo and so forth.


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## HonorableMan (Apr 15, 2012)

Well, the way I see it... when you turn a planet into a slowly revolving ball of slag from orbit, you don't really know for sure who or what you just melted. For all they knew, the traitors might not have been onplanet; it might have been a trick, and well _then_ won't they feel pretty dumb after they Exterminatus it? They had to get all of them, and they had to _see_ the traitor primarchs die. In the novel _Grey Knights_, instead of Exterminatus-ing a planet with a Daemon Prince on it, they send down three hundred Grey Knights to destroy it, to make sure that it dies.


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## Reaper45 (Jun 21, 2011)

HonorableMan said:


> Well, the way I see it... when you turn a planet into a slowly revolving ball of slag from orbit, you don't really know for sure who or what you just melted. For all they knew, the traitors might not have been onplanet; it might have been a trick, and well _then_ won't they feel pretty dumb after they Exterminatus it? They had to get all of them, and they had to _see_ the traitor primarchs die. In the novel _Grey Knights_, instead of Exterminatus-ing a planet with a Daemon Prince on it, they send down three hundred Grey Knights to destroy it, to make sure that it dies.


In case you've forgetten they didn't exerminate armageddon because it was an important planet.

What it boils down to is this. They played into horus's hand because he knew what they would do.


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

Reaper45 said:


> What it boils down to is this. They played into horus's hand because he knew what they would do.


Its not so much that they played into Horus' hand as he deliberately created his hand based on what they would do. 

Further, remember that Istvaan V would've been a crushing Imperial victory, if the second wave hadn't betrayed the first. Despite the potentially (and I personally am not convinced that Exterminatus would've been completely successful) unnecessary playing to the Traitors strengths, there is absolutely no reason for Ferrus, Dorn or any other Loyalist Primarch to have suspected they would fail.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

Hi guys, thanks for all your responses and I can see all your points. Maybe it's just me. I'd have done a Night Haunter on Nostramo job on Isstvan. I'm of the opinion that nothing says don't fuck with the Imperium than annihilating the rebel Legions by blowing up a fucking planet!!

However I do accept your reasons why they did what they did. Thanks everyone


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

zerachiel76 said:


> Hi guys, thanks for all your responses and I can see all your points. Maybe it's just me. I'd have done a Night Haunter on Nostramo job on Isstvan. I'm of the opinion that nothing says don't fuck with the Imperium than annihilating the rebel Legions by blowing up a fucking planet!!


Just a nit-pick but that's not what Night Haunter was trying to achieve with the destruction of Nostramo. It wasn't a "don't fuck with me" statement of badassitude, it was a "fuck you guys" temper tantrum. He blew up Nostramo because it had corrupted his Legion (and he may have realized/believed that it corrupted him as well) and he just wanted it gone. Nostramo's death wasn't intended to have any lasting affect on nearby planets or even the Legion, he just wanted it dead.

You'll note that when Night Haunter does want to make a "don't fuck with me" statement, he lands his troops. Because sure blowing up a planet is hardcore, but the dude I really wouldn't want to mess with is the one who gets down there and murders people with his bare hands. Fear isn't a logical response, it doesn't react well to scale. One persons death is a tragedy a million is a statistic, after all.


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## zerachiel76 (Feb 12, 2010)

MEQinc said:


> Just a nit-pick but that's not what Night Haunter was trying to achieve with the destruction of Nostramo. It wasn't a "don't fuck with me" statement of badassitude, it was a "fuck you guys" temper tantrum. He blew up Nostramo because it had corrupted his Legion (and he may have realized/believed that it corrupted him as well) and he just wanted it gone. Nostramo's death wasn't intended to have any lasting affect on nearby planets or even the Legion, he just wanted it dead.
> 
> You'll note that when Night Haunter does want to make a "don't fuck with me" statement, he lands his troops. Because sure blowing up a planet is hardcore, but the dude I really wouldn't want to mess with is the one who gets down there and murders people with his bare hands. Fear isn't a logical response, it doesn't react well to scale. One persons death is a tragedy a million is a statistic, after all.


Yeah I realise that's not Night Haunter's don't fuck with me response, but since Ferrus was also having a temper tantrum as well.....

Like I said I see the reasoning behind what they did, although to me it seems so dumb for 2 of the smallest legions (Salamanders and Raven Guard) and a small part of the Iron Hands, to assault 4 fully entrenched legions. That doesn't sound like logical planning. 

The logical thing for me would have been to wait for the 4 other legions who later turned, to arrive and all 7 to attack at once. After all, even if the Iron Warriors hadn't turned, I think they and the Iron Hands would have been the best ones to assault the fortifications with their armoured units. Once the fortifications had been cracked open by a combination of the armour and the loyalist titan legion, the Salamanders and Word Bearers could have reinforced the centre, the Night Lords and Raven Guard could have smashed the World Eaters on the right and the Alpha Legion could have taken on the Death Guard on the left, (I bet the Alpha Legion also used forbidden weapons since it seems there's notihing they wouldn't do.

The Raven Guard weren't allowed to follow their tactical doctrine of guerilla strikes either. Its like Ferrus Manus went "I'll totally ignore what the Raven Guard are good at and get them to do this instead."

Plot hole after plot hole for me, explained as Ferrus Manus lost his temper


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## MEQinc (Dec 12, 2010)

zerachiel76 said:


> Yeah I realise that's not Night Haunter's don't fuck with me response, but since Ferrus was also having a temper tantrum as well.....


Night Haunter's tantrum was just giving up, Ferrus' was getting angry. Night Haunter just didn't want to deal with Nostromo, Ferrus needed to prove his loyalty. Ideally by forcefully inserting his boot up Fulgrim's ass.



> Like I said I see the reasoning behind what they did, although to me it seems so dumb for 2 of the smallest legions (Salamanders and Raven Guard) and a small part of the Iron Hands, to assault 4 fully entrenched legions. That doesn't sound like logical planning.


1) The World Eaters and Emperor's Children are both fairly small Legions.
2) The traitors were understrength following Istvaan III.
Given those two points the numbers may not have favoured the traitors that heavily.

Also Ferrus had reason to believe that the fortifications might be unfinished, since Garro had given the loyalists earlier warning than they wouldve otherwise gotten. If given more time the traitors could've completed their defenses, making them harder to defeat. 



> The Raven Guard weren't allowed to follow their tactical doctrine of guerilla strikes either. Its like Ferrus Manus went "I'll totally ignore what the Raven Guard are good at and get them to do this instead."


While the Raven Guard may prefer to fight clandestinely the fact is they are still Space Marines, they are still trained and able to meet a for head on. As evidenced by the fact that they didn't loose hard in this situation. Plus it should be obvious that the Raven Guards usual MO wasn't going to work here, guerilla warfare doesn't work on an entrenched foe.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

zerachiel76 said:


> Like I said I see the reasoning behind what they did, although to me it seems so dumb for 2 of the smallest legions (Salamanders and Raven Guard) and a small part of the Iron Hands, to assault 4 fully entrenched legions. That doesn't sound like logical planning.


It wasn't four full Legions they faced. The World Eaters had taken over fifty percent causalities, the Emperor's Children nearly so (down to 60,000 from 111,000), and the Death Guard and Sons of Horus had taken a serious depletion of man power as well.

And the plan for an immediate assault was for a couple reasons. The first is that the Traitors probably--theoretically--were supposed to be caught unawares. Fulgrim's failed attempt to swing Ferrus to their cause allowed the Loyalists to strike before the Traitors were fully prepared.

Ferrus said so much in _Fulgrim_, "‘The traitors are not expecting us to assault so soon, and we have the advantage of surprise."

Furthermore, there was no sign of the Traitor's fleet. This offered the Loyalist forces a crucial advantage.



zerachiel76 said:


> Plot hole after plot hole for me, explained as Ferrus Manus lost his temper


Ferrus didn't lose his temper. It was fear.

He was afraid of the reason why Fulgrim sought him out.

He was afraid of the accusations of his still Loyal brothers.

Ferrus needed to prove his loyalty. He needed to show he was loyal to a fault. And he did, though it cost him his life.


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## Karthak (Jul 25, 2010)

Good explanations all around, but I suspect that the true reason is that back in the day the writers thought two-dimensionally and simply didn't think to address the "let's just slag them from orbit" school of thought.

Isstvan V is really irritating to me for the same reason the OP described, though that's probably because I've been reading more "realistic" (yeah right) sci-fi litterature recently, and in those settings the side with control of the orbitals has got the other side by the short hairs.


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## hailene (Aug 28, 2009)

Karthak said:


> Isstvan V is really irritating to me for the same reason the OP described, though that's probably because I've been reading more "realistic" (yeah right) sci-fi litterature recently, and in those settings the side with control of the orbitals has got the other side by the short hairs.


This I can forgive a bit more. They had to make sure Horus was dead.

Could you imagine the fiasco it would have been if they had faked their deaths somehow, both the bulk of the Traitor Legions and the Primarchs? I don't know the specific in-universe means, but I'm sure they could do a reasonable job of faking communication signals, energy signatures, and maybe leave the appropriate amount of debris behind.

Also, as we've said before, tactical expediency wasn't the only factor in Ferrus's decision to a ground assault. This had to prove that the Imperium was strong enough to crush the Traitors head-on without any doubts of who was stronger. It was vital to shore up the mental shock of having the Favored Son and three other Primarchs turn.

Ferrus also needed to prove his loyalty by slaying the Traitors directly. He needed to salve his honor after Fulgrim's attempt to sway him.


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